# jumbo or extra-large hive bodies - source?



## AR Beekeeper

I have not seen Jumbo frames for sale in years, I make my own sidebars and use factory top bars for the half dozen I still have. A PM to odfrank may get you some information or advice, he still has a few in operation.


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## Michael Bush

The only commercial suppliers I know of are in Europe where the Dadant-Blatt hive is popular. Western Bee Supply USED to have frames, but they changed their equipment now. Occasionally someone on here offers to make them... Boxes, you will have to make or import from Europe (cheaper to make) and since they are 11 5/8" and a one by twelve is 11 1/4" you will have to add something to a one by twelve or make the bottom board deeper to make up for it.


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## beeware10

biggest problem with jumbos is nobody can pick one up. lol


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## frustrateddrone

beeware10 said:


> biggest problem with jumbos is nobody can pick one up. lol


That can be a positive. unlikely someone is going to steal your bees. If they are stolen you got a better shot at knowing who's the thief.


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## odfrank

shinbone said:


> Anyone know a source for extra-large hive bodies, frames and foundation?
> TIA--shinbone


Rossman had the frames a few years back and Dadant has always had the foundation. Factory square boxes would have to ordered from Europe or make you own. Making 16 1/4" X 19 7/8" X 9 5/8" deep boxes is easy. Just saw the additional 2+ inches off a box and screw it on to the deep box. Or saw two mediums to the right height, or a medium and a shallow.
This picture shows a brown Lang size jumbo depth box on the left built with two mediums, and the box on the right with extra depth added at the bottom.


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## bluegrass

The frames are super easy to make if you have the right equipment. You need a joiner/planer, bandsaw, tablesaw and drum sander. They can be completely cut out of 2x4s. Once everything is set two guys can make a few hundred in just a few hrs. Dnichols and I did it a few years ago.

Here is a pic of the frames we made compared to a standard deep IPM frame. The comb is natural size without foundation.


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## shinbone

odfrank - Thanks for the suggestion on making extra deep boxes by grafting together sections of standard size equipment. With the modern miracle of Titebond III, that sounds like it wouldn't be too hard to do.

Bluegrass - Nice work you've done there, but you have more skills and woodworking tools than I do.

Maybe the best solution for frames is to put the Dadant long foundation in deep frames sans-bottom-bar. Maybe run a piece of steel wielding rod in place of the bottom bar to add some extra support at the end of that long piece of comb. Once the bees have built out the comb, it should be strong enough for the occasional inspection. Maybe run a piece of steel wielding rod in place of the bottom bar to add some extra support at the end of that long piece of comb. This would be for the brood chamber only, so no need for the frames to survive honey extraction.


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## AR Beekeeper

Use the sheets of plastic foundation made for use with wooden frames. A full 8 inch sheet with a strip cut to fill the gap should work, this is what I am trying this coming spring. I marked the center line of the end bars and tacked small pieces of wood to hold the foundation on the center line.


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## odfrank

I made a few 8 frame jumbo depth bait hives this week using old junk boxes. Cut bad tops off half and bad bottoms off the other ones and grafted them together with titebond and three inch drives screws on an angle.


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## AR Beekeeper

Od, I added 3.5 inch skirts to a few boxes just using the glue and I think they will hold OK. They stay at my home yard so there should not be that much stress put on them. What is the greatest depth frame you have used, and what depth do you prefer?


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## RayMarler

beeware10 said:


> biggest problem with jumbos is nobody can pick one up. lol


The jumbo's were not meant to be picked up and moved around. They were considered to be brood nest with stores and left in place. The supers were stacked up on top for honey harvesting. Perhaps Michael Bush has a link to the old writings stating the reasons/theories for using them. I think I remember that they were over wintered in the single jumbo Dadant boxes, being large enough for the winter cluster with stores.


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## AR Beekeeper

C. P. Dadant wrote an article in the November, 1918 issue of the American Bee Journal, page 367, Advantages of Large Hives. This article outlined how his father, Charles Dadant, decided on the frame length and depth for the Dadant Hive. 

The old issues of ABJ and Gleanings in Bee Culture can be found by searching the Internet Archive Digital Library. They have issues and books from the 1860's up to 1922.


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## shinbone

AR Beekeeper said:


> A full 8 inch sheet with a strip cut to fill the gap should work, this is what I am trying this coming spring. I marked the center line of the end bars and tacked small pieces of wood to hold the foundation on the center line.


I am not following . . . got a photo to share?


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## RayMarler

The Dadant System of Beekeeping, 1920, is available from Google Books at this link as a PDF file...

https://books.google.com/books?id=4...ved=0ahUKEwjXsJGEkoTKAhVG_mMKHYEGD2oQ6AEIHDAA

Chapter two covers hive sizes with good reasons for what size to use and why.


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## shinbone

Ray - thanks for the link!


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## shinbone

Unfortunately, I don't have the time or tools to make hive bodies from scratch. I am thinking assemble standard deep and medium boxes, then glue the two together to form one continuous box the combined height of a deep+medium (like what odfrank suggested). 

For frames, assemble a deep frame with no bottom bar, install plastic foundation in the deep frame, using plastic support pins thorugh the side bars to hold the foundation centered between the side bars. Then attach a piece of medium plastic foundation to the bottom of the deep foundation, making it sure hangs straight below the deep foundation. Once the bees build out the comb, it should be strong enough for careful brood box use.

Add honey supers to the top as you would normally do.

This would provide the queen with comb about 15" tall for a huge continuous laying area.


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## AR Beekeeper

No photos, I am not computer literate. 

Cut the end bars, mark the top to bottom center line of the bars so the foundation will be standing vertical in the frame. Use grooved bottom bars, put a full sheet of plastic foundation in the frame, and on both sided of the foundation tack a short strip of wood on the end bars so the sheet stands along the top to bottom center line. The foundation is about 8 inches deep. Let the short piece of wood extend slightly above the full sheet of foundation so the next piece of foundation is supported on the end bar center line.

Cut a piece of plastic foundation to fit the space above the full sheet to fill the frame. This piece meets the full sheet and will be resting on top of it. Nail in the wedge to hold the top piece, or slip it in the grove if you use grooved top bars. I used pieces cut from old frames the wax moths had removed the comb from for this top section of the frame. Add a little wax to the plastic, especially the joint where the two pieces meet. I used an old blade on my radial arm saw to cut the plastic foundation.

When you do one frame you will have the measurements and then you can use stop blocks or jigs to cut all pieces the same. I will try to get my granddaughters to show me how to put on photos, they may even take the pictures for me since I don't have a camera.


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## bluegrass

AR Beekeeper said:


> C. P. Dadant wrote an article in the November, 1918 issue of the American Bee Journal, page 367, Advantages of Large Hives. This article outlined how his father, Charles Dadant, decided on the frame length and depth for the Dadant Hive.


As far as I can tell the decline in Dadant depth hives in this country corresponds with the standardization of lumber. Once the 1x12 became the national standard max width for a sawn board the dadant hive could no longer be made from a single piece of wood, which made it uneconomical to produce en-mass.


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## warrior

Give Rossman a call and ask for Fred. Last I spoke to him he said he would gladly do a run of jumbo frames for me if I wanted. He doesn't keep any on hand or catalog them but he will do small runs if you ask.
Now as for foundation dadant was the last source I know of and not sure if they would do a small run. If you want it bad enough Thorne's in the UK will ship to the US.


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## odfrank

I made these jumbo depth 8 frame bait hives this holiday season by mating bad tops and bottoms of old 9 5/8 boxes together with glue and 3" screws on an angle. If I catch any swarms that fill it upon arrival I will be giddy.


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## warrior

BTW, Thorne's has jumbo drone in addition to 5.4 worker.


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## warrior

bluegrass said:


> As far as I can tell the decline in Dadant depth hives in this country corresponds with the standardization of lumber. Once the 1x12 became the national standard max width for a sawn board the dadant hive could no longer be made from a single piece of wood, which made it uneconomical to produce en-mass.


Lumber quality will be the problem in the future. To hear Fred Rossman tell it the cost and quality of both cypress and pine are going in opposite directions and not in the ways we want.


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## svtkpr

This may or may not help. http://propolis-etc.ca/assets/img/propolis-catalogue-2015.pdf The website is under construction which says they are opening a store in Ann Arbor Mi.They are a lot closer than Europe and the exchange rate is better for you.


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## Fusion_power

I might be able to round up a source to build Dadant size deep equipment. If there is enough interest, I'll post the results here.

Edit: would you prefer 4.9 or 5.3 foundation? I'm trying to line up a source and need to know if anyone else is interested in 4.9 which is what I want.


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## My-smokepole

Svtkpr where in Ann Arbor? Very interesting List of supply's. Seeing I am only 45 mins from Ann Arbor.


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## bluegrass

svtkpr said:


> This may or may not help. http://propolis-etc.ca/assets/img/propolis-catalogue-2015.pdf The website is under construction which says they are opening a store in Ann Arbor Mi.They are a lot closer than Europe and the exchange rate is better for you.


Wow... when did Jones start selling Dadant size equipment? Thanks for the heads up. I may have to send in for an order, exchange rate is 71 cents on the dollar.


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## Fusion_power

I spoke with Arlan at Dadant and was told they still have nineteen 25 pound boxes of duragilt in 16 3/4 by 10 5/8 which is the standard size for Dadant depth frames. This is the only size they currently have in stock. Once this is gone, they will no longer make duragilt in this depth. Don't quote me on the price, but I think it was about $220 per box. Check this to be sure.

He stated that they can run medium brood - unwired plain wax foundation - in Dadant depth on request, but they would like to sell in enough volume to justify making it. They don't currently have it in stock, but will make it if the request is reasonable. Lead time on making this is several weeks so an order will have to be submitted soon if it is needed for spring.

I will open this to discussion, if enough people are interested, I would like to get some of the medium brood. If you are interested in purchasing Medium Brood Wax foundation in Dadant depth, please reply to me either here or in a PM and I'll put together a list and see if we can get up enough of an order to justify asking them to make it. This will be 5.3mm cells on 16 3/4 X 10 5/8 medium brood foundation.

Thorne in England offers diagonally wired Dadant depth foundation though it is a bit expensive. 

Bee Supply Factory in Sweden (http://www.biredskapsfabriken.se/en/artikel.php?id=860) offers medium brood non-wired in 4.9, 5.1, and 5.3. At $1.60 per sheet plus shipping, it is fairly expensive, but they use treatment free wax. I sent them an email asking about shipping to the U.S.

The last possibility which is discussed above is in Canada. They show Dadant depth equipment but do not list foundation. I sent an email asking if they have it in stock and if so, at what price shipped to the U.S.

I will update in a day or two as I get further information.


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## svtkpr

My-smokepole
http://propolis-etc.com/contact-us/ The website redirects you to hexabees.com but you get a server not found page, so I don't know.


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## Fusion_power

I checked with the supplier in Sweden and received a reply that they do not currently have enough wax to ship internationally. If I choose to send them my wax in 100 kilo lots, they will be glad to work it into foundation. The advantage of this supplier is that they can do 4.9, 5.1, or 5.3 but it is plain unwired wax.

I checked with the supplier in Canada and received a response that they will have foundation available in mid February and would be happy to ship to the U.S. They source from France. This will be un-wired medium brood. I am awaiting pricing info.

As above, Dadant has 19 cases of Duragilt in stock and they are willing to do a run of medium brood on request. Cost from Dadant would be arguably the lowest after factoring in shipping.

I have a request in to Thorne to see what 50 kilos of wired Dadant depth would cost shipped to the U.S. I expect it to be fairly high.

The remaining options would be to purchase an embosser and make my own foundation or foundationless and let the bees build their own with all the problems that come from having lots of drone cells.


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## odfrank

I have always used the vertical wired 10 5/8 foundation from Dadant, I was able to get 25lbs a year or two back, although they no longer made it hookless, which I wanted. I have found that the bottom bars on 11 1/4" frames often sag. Both side and bottom bars of 11 1/4" frames should be 3/8 stock.


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## Fusion_power

Thanks ODF, I wish Dadant still had wired wax 10 5/8 depth foundation. I agree emphatically that the side and bottom bars will have to be heavier than regular frames. I am going to make a few frames later this week to work out the details of wiring the frames with a crisscross zigzag pattern to better support the wax. I have a couple of ideas that should do the job.

It is amazing the solutions you can come up with when you put your mind to it. I have an old - 50 years old - 4 frame Kelley extractor that will do 4 Langstroth deep or 8 shallow 5 5/16 inch frames. The long dimension will not allow a full Dadant depth 11 1/4 inch frame to fit properly. I thought about this a bit and realized I can add 2 cheap pieces of expanded metal for about $10 that will allow me to extract Dadant 11 1/4 inch frames with ease. The only issue will be that only 2 frames will fit at a time. This is not an issue since I don't intend use these boxes for honey production, I just want to be able to extract honey for the occasional time that I need to get some out of the brood chamber. If I decide to make this a permanent change, I can modify the basket by adding 1/2 inch to the overall diameter and it will hold 4 Dadant deep frames. This would cost maybe $50 and a few hours of my time. It would be easy to do without significantly changing the way the extractor works.


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## Fusion_power

Update that I located 100 pounds of wired wax with long hooks 10 5/8 deep foundation here in the U.S. at one of Dadant's branches. I'm arranging to have it shipped.

Per discussion in detail with Gary at Dadant, they can make 5.3, 5.1, and 4.9 foundation, but would prefer to wait until September or October to do so since it involves a significant amount of work to set up the equipment. I will follow up on getting some 5.1 later this year. If any one else wants some foundation now, PM me and I'll give you info on how to get it.


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## odfrank

I have an older Dadant 20 frame extractor that will fit four Jumbos with no room to spare. I occasionally draw some out on the honey flow, that gives me the best combs. Mostly I use it to extract dead outs. If you are as mean and inconsiderate a boss as I am, and draw out twelve frame Jumbos, you need some good employees. Manuel hefts 12 frame Jumbos without a word of complaint.


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## Fusion_power

The Chatham VA Dadant branch had 2 boxes of 10 5/8 foundation at $204 per box. This is half as much as I wanted, but at least is a good start. Now I need to build some frames and get my square deep equipment ready to go. I will be building 1.25 inch wide frame end bars tomorrow.

I will request Dadant do another run sometime this spring. There are no guarantees they will get to it given the spring schedule.


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## Fusion_power

I am going to visit this place tomorrow: https://lawrencecobee.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/2015-cypress-bee-equipment-pricelist.pdf

I will ask the guy if he can build some equipment in square Dadant depth. I'll also check about building some jumbo which is Langstroth length and width but Dadant depth.

Keep an eye on this thread if you are interested in purchasing Dadant size equipment!


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## Fusion_power

Albert Zook has access to wide cypress boards to make deep Dadant size boxes. I will build my own frames. He is making 15 solid cypress bottoms, 15 migratory tops, and 30 square 11 3/4 inch deeps. Barring incident, I will pick them up in mid March. He is getting green cypress which needs to be dried before cutting. This will take several weeks after which he will cut the equipment. I intend to assemble everything.

If anyone else wants to get a few hives, please let me know and I'll arrange to have him cut them. He is Amish and does not have either phone or internet so the only way to contact him is by mail or by visiting him. He has a very good stock of cypress woodenware at a reasonable price.


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## Lauri

Going to try these this spring. I didn't want jumbo deep frames, I wanted long _uninterrupted_ Aprox. 18" comb for the brood nest. 

Semi-top bar type frames with a full sheet of foundation to get them started. Foundation is glued and stapled into grove.

With all ten in place I have an instant queen excluder. But not much wiggle room














































Empty deep below gives them room for long comb once they start running wild off the foundation. Slanted plywood inserts to help keep comb from being attached.




























8 frames and a 1 1/2 gallon feeder to get them started. I'll do a fly back swarm this spring in the location of one of my 3 deep over wintered colonies. 










Here's how it looks with 9 frames which is probably how I'll run it unless I want to try the tight excluder option.










This mat keep bees from building on top the frames, but allows access to top entrance and feeder. I keep the mat on until it's time to super.










After running this OB hive last year, This design is just talking it to another level for long comb. I don't plan to disturb these frames, but I need it to be in a configuration that is workable if necessary. (That's a half gallon mason jar for size reference) In it's first year, I probably don't need the bottom slanted sides, but after that it would get full of comb. Might as well keep it in check from the start. 











I'll do another one with just starter strips:










I'll start another thread this summer after it's been in use and I have some actual results to show. But since you all were talking about jumbo stuff, I though I'd show you what I'm fooling with


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## sidpost

Lauri,

That looks super! I doubt I will ever want something like this but, if I do your post is going to make a great reference for me in the future.

Best Regards,
Sid


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## Lauri

sidpost said:


> Lauri,
> 
> That looks super! I doubt I will ever want something like this but, if I do your post is going to make a great reference for me in the future.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Sid


Thanks Sid, it's a rough first try and I have to get back out in the barn to finish the bottom board and details. It's been cold and rainy for weeks here. 
Been cozy by the fire getting some reading in this winter and enjoying not having to get dirty and sweaty like I do in summer. But it's about time to get back to work.


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## Fusion_power

I received 50 pounds of 10 5/8 wax foundation from the Virginia Dadant branch. This will be somewhere between 400 and 450 sheets which is enough to get me started with converting to square deep hives. I will work over the next month to make 1.25 inch wide frames with 11.25 inch depth.


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## RayMarler

Very interesting Darrel. I suspect you will notice a great change in the management of your hives, and in your winter survival rate, and possibly in your honey harvest, and am looking forward to hearing of the changes and results of this project you are embarking upon.


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## Fusion_power

I started work on the frames for 11 5/8 inch deep hive bodies by cutting a few blanks for end bars. Now I'm busy figuring out the way to cut them most efficiently. I'm leaning toward making them 7/16 inch thick to increase strength for horizontal wires. I need a minimum of 420 frames therefore 840 end bars. Using a fine cut blade, I can get 6 wide out of each 2X4 or 9 wide out of each 2X6. This will take about 160 feet of 2X4 or 110 feet of 2X6 stock to cut the number of end bars I need. I'm debating purchasing studs since they are unlikely to warp.

I'll make the top bars and divided bottom bars by the same pattern I've used for years. Topbars are 7/8 inch wide by 3/4 inch thick and 19 inches long. Figuring 12 inch wide stock, I'll need about 200 linear feet after allowing for knots to be cut out.


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## crofter

I would go have a look at some larger dimension stock. Stud grade is usually cut from fairly small stems and you get a lot of grain direction change. Larger like 8, 10, or twelve by will usually allow you to pick clearer and straight grained wood. I made some from 2x4s because they were free but would consider wider if I was going to make a production run.
Does your design use the reduced width of the lower part of the side piece similar to most of the production Hoffman frames we buy?


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## Fusion_power

I've always made Hoffman style end bars with 2/3 of the length cut down to allow a bee space. I am debating cutting them straight and using staples or eyelets as spacers similar to the way Brother Adam made them. The big advantage of Hoffman type end bars is that they can be transported with minimum problems. The advantage of straight end bars with eyelets is that there is less propolis to deal with.

Your point about using wider stock is well made. I worked out using 2X8 and 2X10 stock and get the best efficiency with 2X8. I'll probably purchase based mostly on price for the material that gives the required strength and milling characteristics needed. I have purchased 2X6 studs in the past that would be excellent for this purpose. It all depends on the kind of wood used and the method of milling.


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## GaryG74

I've been reading this thread with great interest and will continue to follow it. The book "Keeping Bees With a Smile" gives quite a bit of info on the use of deeper frames, only used in a horizontal hive. The author had almost zero losses during winter and few swarm issues, unless he intentionally made the hive swarm in the Spring.


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## crofter

Fusion_power said:


> I've always made Hoffman style end bars with 2/3 of the length cut down to allow a bee space. I am debating cutting them straight and using staples or eyelets as spacers similar to the way Brother Adam made them. The big advantage of Hoffman type end bars is that they can be transported with minimum problems. The advantage of straight end bars with eyelets is that there is less propolis to deal with.
> 
> Your point about using wider stock is well made. I worked out using 2X8 and 2X10 stock and get the best efficiency with 2X8. I'll probably purchase based mostly on price for the material that gives the required strength and milling characteristics needed. I have purchased 2X6 studs in the past that would be excellent for this purpose. It all depends on the kind of wood used and the method of milling.


I asked because I ripped mine before doing the reducing cut on the jointer; It would have been much better and safer to do this first but my jointer is only 6 in wide so wider stock would have to be ripped first. It sure is a quick way to make this move.


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## Fusion_power

I priced out lumber at 4 local suppliers with interesting results. One place is about 20% cheaper than the others for comparable wood. I'll visit the cheapest supplier and see if the wood is acceptable for my purposes. If not, the next best is only 3 miles further. One or the other will have what I need. The supplier that is only 1/4 mile from my home is the highest priced of the four. Since I am going to purchase about $300 of lumber, I will put the time in to ensure I get a good price even if I have to drive 30 miles to get it. Saving $50 will pay for the gas to make the trip.

2 X 6 by 8 ft is available in spruce which is decent for frames with cheapest price $4.50 and highest at $5.19. The only thing I don't like about spruce is that it often has lots of small knots which would prevent cutting good end bars.

2 X 8 by 8 ft is available in yellow pine which is too brittle to make good frames and price range from $5.38 to $6.35

#2 shelving board 1 X 12 by the board ft runs from $1 to $1.25

There is one outlier, a local supplier that sells only yellow pine. Prices are $3.50, $4.80, and $.67 respectively for the 3 sizes. Yellow pine is too brittle for making frames.


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## Cabin

Did you ask for the price by the foot or did you give them a list and ask for bids???


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## Fusion_power

I gave them 40 - 2X6, 40 - 2X8, and 25 - 1X12 and asked for an itemized quote. I converted to wood type and price per to post here. While I could get a better price if purchasing in larger volume, the above is what I need without spending for a bunch of wood I can't use. If I wanted to drive 120 miles round trip, I could save another $20. That would IMO be a waste of time and gas.


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## bluegrass

Fusion
The cheapest is going to be in 16 ft lengths. It gives you the least amount of waste for the lengths you need for the top and bottom bars and the side bars. You will get 187 side bars out of a 2x6x16, but you will only get 88 out of a 2x6x8... 

When I did it a few years ago it cost about 45 cents per frame.


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## Fusion_power

I bought wood today, 1 X 12 X 12' times 16 and 2 X 6 X 8 times 30. Total cost was $324.86 including tax. This was the best price I found from a local source. The 1 X 12 X 12' in white pine was $11.99 per 12 ft board and spruce 2 X 6 X 8 were $3.54 each. I'll cut top bars from the 1 X 12's and end bars plus bottom bars from the 2 X 6's.

I have a lot of work to do over the next few weeks to manufacture 1000 Dadant 11 1/4 frames. I will have 30 hive bodies with 14 frames per for a total of 840 frames plus at least 100 extras to sell.


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## bentonbee

I have made some modified Dadant hives, they are just a little different from Jumbos. I have purchased the quimby modified dadant depth frames from Rossman several years ago...BUT I do not think they are the same spacing between the frames as the Modified Dadant was. The ones from Rossman would be the spacing between frames that the Jumbo uses and the same as a regular langstroth uses. Another book to read on the big deep hives is a book by Frank Pellet called "A Living From Bees" ...Frank became a convert of the bigger brood nest. And he tells you why in that book. Here is a link to buy a reprint... http://www.amazon.com/Living-From-Bees-Frank-Pellett/dp/144652339X
Also the Dadant book "The Dadant System of Beekeeping" (you can buy a reprint on Amazon)...C P. Dadant sells you on their big hives . Brother Adam in England is another who found the Modified Dadant hive, a good one..he used one with the wider frame spacing as the Dadants said you should, and had 11 frames in it. The Modified Dadant hives I used were made from wide boards I bought at a sawmill. I have a couple made out of basswood and a some made out of pine. The thing I like about them is I can have one brood box to look though not two......No I don't move them much and I only use the big Mofidied Dadant box for the brood chamber. If I do move them I use a two wheeled cart. I do use regular langstroth shallow supers for my supers, and it works good. To make a Modified Dadant Hive You can use two boards put together... I think it was in one of the old Dadant books (I have lots of old bee books, you would be surprised what you learn by reading them!) said you can use some tongue and groove boards put to gether to make the deep Modified Dadant hives since they don't make normal boards that wide any more. Here is a video I did on making my Modified Dadant hives, it shows my basswood hives and the homemade frames I made for them... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g5IGoogHi4


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## Lauri

Thought I'd show you how the new hives are turning out since the subject is jumbo frames (Larger uninterrupted laying surface) comb.
This one has top bars and will run foundationless or partial foundation mostly natural long comb in the bottom unit, superable on top. Clear access door is to not only enjoy the process and natural comb colony, but keep my eye on their progress and intervene before they make a mess, if they were inclined to do so. These top bars are 19" so are interchangeable with standard equipment.

































































Some top bars with a full sheet of foundation to get them started, some with just starter strips. I cut off the tapered edge on the foundation, glue, tapped in the grove and staple in in place. Staples basically hold the foundation straight until glue dries. I had a bunch of starter strips laying around for a couple years, a good chance to use them up.

Although they won't do much with frames in the two end deeps, there is room there for a couple extra frames and an interior feeder on each side. Full deep is centered over colony.










Except for flashing over the door to keep rain out and a cover for door to keep it dark, it is pretty much done.



















Or you can top it with two standard 10 frame equipment. Your seam is directly above the colony though. The other set up with a full deep above center and two half deeps on ether side is more centered, but you have two thick seams or dividers with that. Not sure which will be best. It probably depends on if you want the queen to move up or not. If she moves up with this system below, she'll likely stay in one box, offcentered and the other may get ignored.
These box's are for surplus honey collection, possibly run with excluder in summer, then to allow the colony to move up over winter if necessary to feed. The amount of natural comb built in the fist year below will dictate whether they need to be supered the first winter or not.


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## Lauri

Here's the 2 queen long hive design that takes standard frames or custom deeps



















You know the drainage needs for large colonies over winter. The strip of screen has worked well in previous years. The tilted solid portion is a new idea.










Then I start stacking, 2 more layers for standard frames (or more depending on the depth of frame I want to use) I run a thick bead of clear silicone between each layer and screw together. Extra deep bottom board stays separate from the hive body unit.



















Add solid divider:




























I actually don't have much trouble with extra room underneath frames as long as I've given them adequate room above. This angled bottom board design is new, so well see what they do with it. It could easily accommodate jumbo deeps. Lots of room for large populations to congregate in summer. No bearding and plenty of ventilation.










Each section interior is about 18" x 22 1/2", will fit 15 standard frames with a small amount of room for manipulation










Colonies are secluded on each side until well established (Queens mated and laying well) then once frames are drawn and built up, can be supered and allowed to mingle above excluder on the center straddling divider below










Queens have 15 frames below and 10 framed directly above their section, center deep is the only one that has excluder below










When needing to be supered for honey production, excluders are placed on top the queenright sections and supered. I have not gotten to this stage yet and will post photos in a couple months.


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## Lauri

Here is the actual operational stage so far, started mid summer with 5 frames of bees, capped queen cells and once mated and laying well, more drawn frames since they were started late and main flow was over. Fed well and blessed with a fall flow. Currently over wintering

Fall photo:










Center deep above excluder is full of capped honey and currently abandoned in January

Below- January photo. You notice it's on it's own pallet and be easily moved with fork lift. These units probably would actually transport very well as long as you have a fork lift on _Both_ ends:


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## JohnBruceLeonard

frustrateddrone said:


> That can be a positive. unlikely someone is going to steal your bees. If they are stolen you got a better shot at knowing who's the thief.


Alas, frustrateddrone, that is nothing one can count on. Just last year - to name a single event of many - about one hundred Dadant jumbos were stolen from a commercial beekeeping in my area.

RayMarler - it is interesting to hear that Dadant intended his jumbo hives for migratory beekeeping. They are the hive of preference where I live (at least if I am not wrong in equating Dadant _deep _and Dadant _jumbo _hives), and many beekeepers practice transhumance with them. Generally, two people are required to lift them, but a single person can get by if he is foolish enough to try (surely not speaking from my own experience!). Standard overwintering here is precisely as you have described - a single Dadant brood box, no supers.

John


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## Fusion_power

I cut up a single 2 X 6 X 8 to see how many end bars it would yield. I got 71 good end bar blanks and about 6 more that I culled. I estimate waste at 10% for knots, splits, and other damage. It is time consuming taking just shy of an hour to make 70 bars on my table saw. I can double that rate by cutting in bulk. I had to adjust the rip guide 3 times to make the required cuts with roughly a minute for each adjustment. These end bars blanks are 11 1/4 inches long by 1 3/8 inches wide by 7/16 inch thick. The next step is to cut the notches for the top bar and for the bottom bar and then drill for wires.


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## RayMarler

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> ...RayMarler - it is interesting to hear that Dadant intended his jumbo hives for migratory beekeeping. They are the hive of preference where I live (at least if I am not wrong in equating Dadant _deep _and Dadant _jumbo _hives), and many beekeepers practice transhumance with them. Generally, two people are required to lift them, but a single person can get by if he is foolish enough to try (surely not speaking from my own experience!). Standard overwintering here is precisely as you have described - a single Dadant brood box, no supers.
> 
> John


Thank you John for correcting my fuzzy memory of my readings of the old beekeeping writings. I would imagine it to be quite a chore to use these Jumbo Hives for migratory pollination, taking more men or equipment to get them moved around. I'm only personally familiar with the way it is done here in California at the present time for almond pollination. It being such a large area and industry of monoculture, many beekeepers here use palletized hives and forklift tractors of some sort to load and unload off the trucks. I like hearing of how operations are done in other countries, and enjoy reading the old history of beekeeping and how it has evolved over the years.


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## JohnBruceLeonard

RayMarler said:


> It being such a large area and industry of monoculture, many beekeepers here use palletized hives and forklift tractors of some sort to load and unload off the trucks.


No doubt many of the large operations here in Sardinia are mechanized in a similar way. The rest of us get by as we can - and pray our backs will hold out! I found your original comment particularly interesting, as this year I have decided to keep my apiaries stationary.

I agree totally - it is fascinating hearing about the different usages in different countries. Beekeeping allows for such charming variation, as demonstrated in this very thread by DarJones' manufacturing his own custom equipment, and Lauri's relentless experimentation.

John


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## sidpost

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> I agree totally - it is fascinating hearing about the different usages in different countries. Beekeeping allows for such charming variation, as demonstrated in this very thread by DarJones' manufacturing his own custom equipment, and Lauri's relentless experimentation.
> 
> John


Threads like this one are very interesting and educational. I enjoy reading about how things are done in other parts of the worlds. The bee houses in Czechoslovakia are where it started with me.


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## Fusion_power

I got a quote back from Albert Zook for making the square deep equipment. Here are the prices he gave me.

$10.00 per 5 3/4 shallow super

$12.50 per 11 5/8 square brood chamber

$14.00 per square migratory top

$11.00 per square bottom board


I might argue a bit over the price of the shallow supers given the price of the deeps, but all told, I think it is a very fair price for custom made cypress woodenware.

If anyone else is interested, I will - on a limited basis - purchase some extras and ship them to others interested in trialing single deep brood chambers. Shinbone has already requested one complete hive with top, bottom, and deep brood chamber with frames and foundation.


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## Fusion_power

I've been cutting bottom bars and have now cut enough equipment to build the first 50 frames. There is still some trim work to do, but I should begin assembling them sometime tomorrow.


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## warrior

I would be interested in jumbos, lang not dadant square, with frames and foundation. Would that be possible?

Curious why you went whole hog with the dadant square and not the lang jumbo?


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## Fusion_power

Warrior, I can get some jumbos built.

Here is why I am going with Square Dadant. In the fall, I would raise queens and get them mated in mini nucs. I would install a divider in one of the deep hives and introduce 2 queens setting up what in effect is 2 nucs though with comb capacity equivalent to 9 Langstroth frames on each side. I would overwinter in this configuration, then manage the bees for buildup the next spring. Sometime around April 15th, pull a queen to sell and remove the divider. This gives me the potential to hit the main flow the 1st of May with a single queen and 120,000 bees in one hive. Go through the honey flow as a single queen colony. Raise queens again in July and repeat the process for the next year. Does it make sense now? Think how much honey a 2 queen colony can make? Plus I get to sell a queen.

If one of the queens is bad or if one of the nucs dies out over winter, no loss, I just remove the divider and run as a single queen colony for the honey flow. It would not be as productive as one that came through winter with 2 queens, but it would still produce a crop of honey.

a. 2 queen colony to build up for the flow
b. young queen to sell
c. backup just in case one nuc fails, I still get a crop of honey.


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## warrior

Cost? I'm thinking ten with frames and foundation.


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## Fusion_power

Worst case, I'll charge you $10 for 10 complete frames plus you pay shipping to get them to you. I would prefer that you get some top bars and bottom bars and I ship you just the end bars. The Jumbo box will cost $12.50 as per above. You can use covers and bottom boards from regular hives so all you will need is a jumbo box and the frames to fit. If you want 10 sheets of Dadant 5.4 foundation, I'll include them for what I paid for them.


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## odfrank

>Curious why you went whole hog with the dadant square and not the lang jumbo?

I first made 12 square hives and later made Lang Jumbos so that I could get the benefit of the deep frame and one large brood chamber but use the ten frame supers I had on hand. They have worked well.


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## shinbone

What's the difference between a "Dadant jumbo" and a "Dadant deep" and a "Langstroth jumbo" and a "Langstroth deep"?

And, are there any other big hives used in the U.S?


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## odfrank

JWG
Field Bee
Icon 1 posted December 20, 2006 03:57 PM Profile for JWG Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post A couple notes on the larger brood frames:
Historically in North America there were two large brood frame designs, the Dadant and the Langstroth Jumbo. There is no "Dadant Jumbo."
The standard Dadant brood frame (like the one used by Br. Adam) has the dimensions 17 5/8 * 11 1/4 inches. There are 11 of these in the Modified Dadant hive, and 12 in the Buckfast Dadant hive. The frames are spaced wider than Langstroth, on 1 1/2" centers (an important difference).. Normally used in an 8 or 10 frame configuration. (One of the reasons why the 10 fr. hive became popular is because the 8-fr. had a tendency to tip over.) Frame spacing is 1 3/8" center to center.
The Langstroth Jumbo brood frame is deeper, at 11 1/4", making it similar to the Dadant brood frame, but it retains the narrower spacing.
In Britain, many users of National Hives have gone to a 3 1/2 inch-deeper version of the British Standard brood frame, at 14 x 12 in. to allow for a larger continuous brood comb area. This would be analogous to the Jumbo Langstroth frame.
20 years ago you could still get Lang. Jumbo frames and bodies from at least one supplier in Quebec but now they aren't in the North American catalogs anymore that I know of. Posts: 131 | From: Wakefield, MA, USA | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mike Gillmore
Field Bee


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## shinbone

Excellent. Thanks!


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## kilocharlie

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> Alas, frustrateddrone, that is nothing one can count on. Just last year - to name a single event of many - about one hundred Dadant jumbos were stolen from a commercial beekeeping in my area...


Where's he gonna hide in Sardinia? That's Stupid!

Dar - Sorry I didn't chime in before you ordered the wood. Sugar pine is preferred because it warps very little. Hope you got lucky.


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## JohnBruceLeonard

kilocharlie said:


> Where's he gonna hide in Sardinia? That's Stupid!


That's what I thought, Kilocharlie! But actually, it's quite _furbo_ (Italian, untranslatable, meaning something like "sly, willing and able to take advantage of any situation"). 

Here we encounter one of the problems with island life. Say an enterprising scoundrelly sort takes it into his head to steal a few dozen beehives here. He finds a couple of helping hands, goes out say at three in the morning, loads the hives onto a truck, and departs with them for a prearranged point on the coast. Because Sardinia is small, no matter where he starts from he can reach said point by five o'clock in the morning or so. The hives board a boat there and vanish to the mainland, where, frankly, no one gives a fig for the troubles of Sardinia.

However, even the size of the island is misleading. A band of highwaymen recently stole an entire armored truck, with €120,000 cash inside, in broad daylight, on one of the principle highways of the island, and managed to disappear completely into the wild inner parts of the island. They were never caught, and neither the truck nor the money it contained were ever recovered. From what I have read, I think that theft of this sort is more difficult to get away with in California, which is geographically larger than the entirety of Italy.

John


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## sidpost

Crossing borders and large bodies of water typically cause bureaucratic issues for law enforcement which makes it very difficult to find your property, much less reclaim it.

We have had similar issues with things going to Canada and Mexico. While Mexico may be problematic with law enforcement, Canada is a reliable partner and still it is nearly impossible to find anything up there much less bring it back to its rightful owner.


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## kilocharlie

Lots of theft deterrents in beehives have been discussed before here on Beesource. I'll try to look up the old threads and post the links.

My favorite is the live snake in the super, but there are a lot of good ideas.

Star Trek Deep Space 9 had a _furbo_ character, the Pharengie. That little short raisin skinned guy with the big ears who was always screwing people in business deals one way or another, pi$$ing off Worf to no end.


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## JohnBruceLeonard

kilocharlie said:


> My favorite is the live snake in the super, but there are a lot of good ideas.
> 
> Star Trek Deep Space 9 had a _furbo_ character, the Pharengie. That little short raisin skinned guy with the big ears who was always screwing people in business deals one way or another, pi$$ing off Worf to no end.


Thanks, Kilocharlie. This will have me laughing all morning.

I've just looked up hive deterrents here on Beesource. This is a timely discussion for me, as a friend of my mentor's just told us yesterday that he had 36 hives stolen from one of his apiaries. I won't distract any longer from the present thread, but for anyone interested, here are the links I found:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?304336-Theft&highlight=hive+theft

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ntion-Measures&highlight=hive+theft+deterrent

John


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## warrior

Fusion_power said:


> Worst case, I'll charge you $10 for 10 complete frames plus you pay shipping to get them to you. I would prefer that you get some top bars and bottom bars and I ship you just the end bars. The Jumbo box will cost $12.50 as per above. You can use covers and bottom boards from regular hives so all you will need is a jumbo box and the frames to fit. If you want 10 sheets of Dadant 5.4 foundation, I'll include them for what I paid for them.


Thanks, I'm definitely going to take you up on this. PM sent.


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## Fusion_power

Warrior, I replied to your message, please give me a call sometime over the next week.


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## Fusion_power

I spent 3 hours today cutting out end bar blanks. So far, I have about 500 blanks cut. I will cut about 1200 total so I can assemble 420 frames for my own use and about 200 more for sale. I am going to pick up a truck load of equipment Saturday Feb 20th. Then the serious hive assembly can begin!


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## shinbone

Thanks for the update!


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## Fusion_power

Today's continuation of the saga is my effort to find a tank large enough to wax dip the new equipment. If I get a round tank, the minimum diameter is 33 inches to fit one of the hive bodies. It needs to be at least 20 inches deep to avoid boil over. If I get a square tank, it should be 24 inches square by 20 inches deep. I tried to find a round stainless tank but could not find one over 24 inches diameter. I then checked for a commercial fryer which just by chance one of my brothers might be able to get as a freebie after it has been decommissioned from a restaurant. But the fryers he has are not deep enough. My options at this point are to grab a 55 gallon drum and use it as a cooker, to have a custom build tank at a cost of about $350, or to find some kind of junk tank that would do the job. Decisions, decisions!


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## odfrank

I also have been keeping bees as long as you and recently as I build stuff using the techniques I have learned to promote longevity in the equipment...have been wondering...why am I building these for the long haul...who for? How many years can I keep going? But since we are building equipment styled after Brother Adam's we must keep in mind that he kept bees into his nineties. So like him we might need the boxes to last another 30 years, so I guess we should keep building them to last. Boil away.


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## AR Beekeeper

Dipping the supers in copper napthanate protects from rot and is not as much work as boiling in wax.


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## odfrank

So are you dipping or cooking?
I don't like the smell of copper napthenate and worry that the bees don't either.


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## AR Beekeeper

I dip, the bee pay no attention to the odor. I try to dip all equipment in the late summer or early fall and let it dry over winter and put it in operation in the spring. This year I had a late start and I am just treating some screened bottom boards. Those that have only dried for 3 weeks, and are now in use, are not repellant to the bees.


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## Michael Bush

>Dipping the supers in copper napthanate protects from rot and is not as much work as boiling in wax.

ttp://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf00125a060

"Five hives were used for each preservation treatment: copper naphthenate, copper 8-quinolinolate, pentachlorophenol (PCP), chromated copper arsenate (CCA), acid copper chromate (ACC), tributyltin oxide (TBTO), Forest Products Laboratory water repellent, and no treatment (control). Honey, beeswax and honey bees were sampled periodically during two successive summers. Elevated levels of PCP and tin were found in bees and beeswax from hives treated with those preservatives. A detectable rise in copper content of honey was found in samples from hives treated with copper naphthenate. CCA treatment resulted in an increased arsenic content of bees from those hives. CCA, ABTO, and PCP treatments of beehives were associated with winter losses of colonies."--The effect of wood preservative treatment of beehives on honey bees and hive products, Martins A. Kalnins, Benjamin F. Detroy


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## AR Beekeeper

It has been years since I read that study, but wasn't it on the order of 3 parts per million for the copper in the honey? It was not in the range where it would be dangerous for humans to eat. I probably absorbed more than that when as a child I put a penny under my tongue. How much do you get wearing a copper bracelet?


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## Fusion_power

I picked up 30 migratory tops, 30 bottom boards, and 30 square shallow supers today for a total of $1050. The wood to make the deep brood chambers is not yet dry enough to mill the finger joints. The wood is there stacked in crisscross to encourage it to dry faster. He will have the remaining equipment ready on March 12th.

I have all the new equipment in the greenhouse ready to assemble and paint.


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## Fusion_power

I still have a lot of work to do on the frames, but can start assembling the first 100 tomorrow. It has been an adventure with milling the frames to the standard I want. Among other items, I purchased 3 new blades, a 6 inch 40 tooth thin kerf carbide for cutting small parts, a thin kerf 10 inch 40 tooth carbide Freud for bulk sawing, and a new Freud professional dado set. I was surprised how much more accurately I can cut using the Freud dado set and 10 inch blade.

End bars are 7/16 thick, 1.25 inches wide, and 11 1/4 inches long. Bottom bars are 3/8 inch thick and 3/4 inch wide. Top bars are 3/4 inch thick, 7/8 inch wide and 19 inches long. The wedge is very carefully cut so that it is 1/4 inch by just under 1/2 inch. The wedge dimensions are critically important to getting the foundation to alight precisely in the center of the frame.

I purchased 2 gallons of paint and have plenty of Titebond 3 glue on hand. The next few days will be BUSY.


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## shinbone

The precision of a brain surgeon . . .


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## Fusion_power

I got my sons to help for a few hours today and painted 8 tops, 8 bottoms, and 8 of the square deep hive bodies. We will put on a second coat tomorrow and then coat the rims of the hive bodies with beeswax.

After painting, I cut bottom bars for frames for about an hour. Would have done more cutting, but we had a serious storm. I do NOT stay in the greenhouse when lightning is striking in the area!


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## shinbone

Hi Dar,

(Your mailbox is full)

Just wondering how things are progressing?

Thanks.

--shinbone


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## Fusion_power

I assembled 14 frames today. I have everything set to put 8 colonies in the new hives, just need to assemble 98 more frames. The frames are working out just as expected. 7/16" thick end bars made of spruce are stiffer than white pine and give the required amount of support.


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## My-smokepole

I have been using more 7.5" blades in my table saw. But for my Dado blade. It is one of Freud Professional one. 10 " tablesaw


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## shinbone

Fusion_power said:


> I assembled 14 frames today. . . . The frames are working out just as expected.


Glad to hear the frame design is working out. These big frames have to be made just right for them to function well in the hive.


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## shinbone

Dar - Your proposed shipping schedule sounds good.

(and, I still get a message saying your mail box is full)


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## sakhoney

Jumbos - My back hurts just thinking about these - I'm thinking using just mediums myself - Good luck


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## Fusion_power

I don't anticipate moving them much. They are intended as permanently located brood chambers.

Shinbone, I removed a dozen messages, but a lot of people decided to send me messages today so it filled back up. I'll erase some more.

I have finished parts to assemble 42 frames after working about 3 hours this evening. I plan on assembling them and putting them in hives ready to accept either swarms or full size colonies.


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## Fusion_power

The rubber hit the road today. I now have 7 colonies in square Dadant depth boxes. I still have to assemble about 100 frames for them. There is an early flow on, but not enough yet to trigger the bees to draw foundation. That will hit in about 2 weeks. I made splits putting parent colonies into the new equipment and leaving a 3 frame split in the old equipment. I have one fully painted and ready hive to use tomorrow and have already planned which colony gets it.

Here is a tip I got from Cushman's site that other beekeepers could use. When preparing hive bodies, get a large container of petroleum jelly and use it to coat the frame rest and the upper and lower edges of the boxes. This will protect the equipment from water damage and make propolis removal super easy. Don't skimp, coat the wood thoroughly to get the desired effect.


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## McBee7

I just came into some ODD size boxes that I assume are dadant sizes. very strange configurations and there seems to be a box that slips over the "brood" boxs, maybe for winter configs.??? I'll give some measurements later, these are very worn but are free from an old beek that had passed and this eqpt was sold with the farm....They are free and have no history of disease...I could build the boxs but would love to know the principles of operations....no frames,, just boxs with queen excluders...will also try to post pics of the pile...

==McBee7==


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## deknow

Look up 'chaff hive' in older bee books.


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## Tod

I have many 8 Frame Jumbo hives that I will be selling at the beginning of next year for almonds or I will sell them in a few months at a lower price. I also have 8 frame shells and 8 frame with drawn comb. If your interested please PM me.

Tod


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## Fusion_power

More rubber hit the road today. I assembled, painted, and put frames in 8 of the square shallow supers. These are 5 11/16 deep so my shallow frames fit. I'm removing them from old equipment and inserting into the new along with foundation as needed.

I now have over 100 of the 11 1/4 inch deep frames on colonies to get wax drawn. Roughly half of them are finished already!


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## Fusion_power

I got three more square deep hives built and painted and ready for bees. I have colonies ready to go in them tomorrow. A full gallon of paint covers 8 hive bodies, 8 bottoms, and 8 covers with 2 good coats of paint. At this rate, I need at least 3 more gallons to assemble and paint all of the equipment.


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## kilocharlie

I wish I was near enough to see the whole thing! After reading what the Dadants said about the large hives, I'm sure tempted to become a convert.

I once had two boxes stored without frames, and - you guessed it - the bees took up residence, building "double deep" combs. It was a very strong colony for 3 years. I had to move them suddenly. The queen had laid up HUGE, solid patterns on those double-deep combs. 

They never did as well after the combs were shortened and put into regular frames for the move.

Did you make all the boxes out of 12" wide lumber? Any joined pieces? I'll probably have to splice the lumber for the width. I'm thinking a bead & cove joint should work, but the right sized T&G, or a VVVV - type glue joint might work well. Thoughts?

*McBee7* - They might be WBC hives - the double wall hives designed by William Broughton Carr. The original design was square boxes, I think 14 frames, and the outside boxes ("lifts") were angled like a trapezoid in cross-section. They make for somewhat labor-intensive beekeeping, but are a great design to keep bees dry and insulated in cold country. They have a dihedral roof, and are quite aesthetically pleasing to the eye. Check in the Build It section here on Beesource.


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## Fusion_power

One of my goals is to get pictures of the hives inside and out set up and operating. The boxes are made from 12 inch wide lumber so no joints. I would not hesitate to build an eke to add 2 inches to a standard Langstroth. I built 3 of them so far to use while converting colonies to the square deep hives. It is just scrap lumber from cutting out frames.


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## Fusion_power

I finished cutting out 100 more frames today. Tomorrow I'll drill holes in the end bars and start assembling them. At this point I have this equipment on the bees:

11 square deep hives with covers

about 100 new deep frames with foundation, the rest of the frames are 9 1/8 Langstroths moved into the new boxes as I transferred colonies.

7 frames given with starter strips to see how a swarm builds combs in the new frames. So far, there is a lot more drone comb than I like.

8 shallow square supers with frames for the honey crop.

I have bottom boards, boxes, and enough frame blanks to finish out 30 full colonies. This will require at least 4 more gallons of paint and about 160 more hours of cutting and assembly work.


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## Fusion_power

I've been averaging an hour a day working on equipment. Yesterday I assembled frames. Today I finished off 4 Killion deep bottom boards including first layer of paint. I will make at least another dozen deep bottom boards as time allows over the next few weeks. With the hot humid summer about to start, I know the bees need more air flow than they are getting now.

I am somewhere above 140 frames assembled and put on the bees. I hope to move a few frames around tomorrow so the bees will finish as many as possible during the flow.


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## Fusion_power

I'm making steady progress converting to the new equipment. Today I assembled 16 frames using up all the top bars I had cut, cut out and assembled 3 more Killion bottom boards, assembled and painted one new complete hive and moved a colony into it. I need to do inspections, put more frames in hives replacing old Langstroth frames, and move another colony into a new hive tomorrow. The heat is slowing me down quite a bit, I have to work an hour or so, then rest and cool off.

I cut all the remaining end bar blanks and have them ready to drill, a total of about 500 end bars. I have enough bottom bars cut to assemble about 200 frames. I have about 600 top bar blanks ready to do the remaining cuts. I need to finish about 250 top bars over the next week.

I now have over a dozen colonies transferred into new equipment and another half dozen Langstroth colonies fitted with ekes drawing out 6 to 8 of the new frames each. These 6 colonies will be my next targets to get into new equipment. I found out that it is easiest to put an eke under a Langstroth box and add several of the new frames, then move the colony into new equipment when the frames are drawn. The end result is the colony in new equipment with all new frames and the 5 or 6 old frames in the Langstroth box moved to a new location as a queen rearing nuc.


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## squarepeg

i believe you are on the right track dar, especially after seeing how very productive the 11 frame small cell brood chamber that you brought up here was. your jumbos will conceivably bump that up even another notch. are you anticipating reduced swarming with them as well? i'm looking forward to hearing how this works out for you, thanks for sharing.


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## Fusion_power

I went hammer down on the new boxes today and got 10 of them fully assembled and put on the first coat of paint. I also painted 4 bottom boards on one side. Tomorrow I plan to put on the second coat for the hive bodies and get 10 bottom boards and 10 covers painted. I have 14 hives already in the new square deep equipment and with these 10 new boxes will be up to 24 in short order. I have colonies in Langstroth hives that I added an eke to make them 2 inches deeper so I could put in new frames. Those colonies can be moved over to the new boxes with a minimum of effort. My plan is to go into winter with 28 colonies in new equipment.

I have a LOT of work left to get all the assembly and painting done. I need to cut out and assemble 22 Killion deep bottom boards. I need to assemble at least 10 more of the square deep boxes so I will have extras ready in case I have to feed. I still need to cut out at least 200 more top bars, I have the blanks ready to go, but they need work to finish them.

I purchased 5 gallons of exterior white semi-gloss paint today for $107.00. 1 gallon will put 3 coats on 6 tops, 6 bottoms, and 6 boxes. I also have 28 shallow supers to assemble and paint. Whatever paint is left over will be used to put a coat on some of the old Langstroth equipment and prepare it to sell. I've sold a few empty hives and supers over the last 3 months but have kept most of the old equipment to run queen nucs.


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## Fusion_power

The end is NEAR!

Well, at least, the end of the painting is near. I've spent the last full week painting an hour or two per day. I got 10 brood chambers painted, 15 tops, and 15 bottoms. 4 of the tops and 5 of the bottoms are only painted on one side. I'll try to finish them up tomorrow.

At this point, I need to assemble 5 more brood chambers and get them painted. I need to make 22 Killion deep bottom boards and I need to cut out parts for another 250 frames. My target is to have 450 frames assembled and ready to use. Some of them will be set aside until next year, a few will be used during the fall flow to get more deep frames drawn.

I plan to number these brood chambers and set up a regular record system to track queen lineage, performance, and management needs. Maybe it is time to get some of those number templates and a can of spray paint.

I've used up 4 gallons of the 5 gallon can of paint purchased a week ago.

I still have about 35 square shallow supers to assemble and paint. They won't be needed until next year, but I will probably put them together and get it done with.


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## Fusion_power

I moved 4 colonies into new equipment. Two of them will benefit if fed a bit to draw some comb. One was given a queen cell 2 days ago and has a queen about to emerge. One is strong enough that they are slowly drawing comb on their own. I've been invited to a family dinner so will not do any more this evening.

I need at least 100 more frames to fill up the boxes as I move bees into them. I've got to keep busy for the next several months!


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## squarepeg

i was thinking dar as i read your last couple of posts that our brethren in the north typically utilize the long cold winters to catch up on their equipment building ect. down here that indoor work is better accomplished this time of year when it's too dang hot to get much done outside. hopefully your shop has a/c is in good working order.


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## Fusion_power

Picture time!!!!

I've now moved 23 colonies into square deep hives with 14 frames. At this point, I can say that there are only two negatives to using them. 

1. These hives are very heavy so the average beekeeper would have to pull frames out (or get help) before moving the brood box. I'm still strong enough and have a good enough back that I can move them.

2. These are definitely not standard, particularly here in the U.S. where almost everything is 10 frame Langstroth.


Everything else about these hives gets down to differences in the way they are managed and is purely for beekeeper convenience. I like having only 14 frames to examine. I love the beautiful large combs the bees build. I'm eagerly looking forward to winter to see how the bees manage in these hives. These bees have been on the new combs for 21 days and just today have the first brood emerging.


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## squarepeg

nice photos dar, those square dadants ought to allow for some awesome brood nests!


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## Fusion_power

Over the past week, I assembled and wired 70 frames. I'm going to put them on large colonies and feed enough to get drawn combs. This is the largest number of new frames I've had to work with at one time so far. I will have over 200 frames in the hives when these are all in use. This brings up my next hurdle which is that I am nearly out of foundation. I will have about 35 sheets left. Hopefully this will be enough to get me through to fall when Dadant will have some 5.1 manufactured.

Looking forward, I still have a few tops and bottoms that need to be painted and I need to assemble about 8 more brood chambers. I am also cleaning up the old equipment as I have time so it can be re-used to sell colonies next spring. I'm storing Langstroth deep frames above a few colonies to keep them clear of waxmoths and beetles. Another 3 months should see most of the Langstroth frames out of the hives and the bees going into winter with at least 10 Dadant depth frames per colony.

Build more boxes
paint more tops and bottoms
make another 100 frames
keep removing Langstroth frames as the bees clear them of brood
clean up the old equipment and either re-use to produce queens or else sell next spring as starter colonies


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## dtrooster

Couple questions on the frames you're building. How thick are the ears and what are the inside dimensions where the foundation fits inclusive of the wedge depth? I'll be interested in about 50 sheets when you make your next order


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## sakhoney

Fusion - those look great


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## Fusion_power

I make the ears/lugs on the frames tapered so they are 1/2 inch thick at the end bar notch and 5/16 inch thick at the end. This is so that I can use top bee space above the frames which is correct for migratory covers. With 5/16 at the end, the top bars sit almost exactly 5/16 below the cover. In other words, just about perfect bee space. The hive bodies have a standard 5/8 inch rabbett/rebate. I set a 16 degree angle on my table saw to cut the tapered area. The result is a very strong frame that can take more abuse than most of the commercial frames on the market yet still respects bee space in every dimension.

The best way to describe the interior of the frames is that the foundation is standard 10 5/8 by 16 3/4. The open space inside the frame is a rectangle 10 1/8 by 16 13/16.

The blanks for the frame in inches are:
top bar = 19 X 3/4 X 7/8
end bar = 11 1/4 X 1 1/4 X 7/16 (make them 3/8 thick if you choose, I used 7/16 to increase strength for wires)
Bottom bars = 3/8 X 3/8 X 17 21/32 (If you use 3/8 end bars, then make bottom bars 17 17/32 and put most of the extra space inside the frame)

I assemble frames on top of my tablesaw using glue and nails. Then I lay the frame down on top of the saw and twist it until it lays perfectly flat. I then use the right angles of the table to ensure the frame is square. When finished, it is square and lays flat and fits in a hive body just about as good as it can get.

You can read what I wrote about frames here. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?325985


Dadant has hook wired 5.4 mm foundation available in 10 5/8 X 16 3/4. Call and ask for Alvin and he will get it shipped. A box contains 64 sheets, weighs just over 12 pounds, and will cost you $130 or thereabouts including shipping. I am waiting until October to re-order so I can get some 5.1. Changeover to new rollers is time consuming so they won't run 5.1 until this fall. There are 9000 cells per frame with 5.4 and 9700 cells with 5.1 foundation. I want the extra 700 cells!


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## dtrooster

Thanks, I'd rather have the 5.1 cell myself so drop a dime when they start running some. My brood boxes will be of a morph design so I'll have some leeway with the thicknesses of all the frame bars. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna use spacer buttons between the frames. I played around yesterday and decided to use some angle aluminum for frame rests. Gonna be a neat project


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## shinbone

Lauri said:


>


_(I was just perusing this older thread)_

Lauri - I love how you try new things, and I am also impressed with your construction skills. Any updates on how this hive is doing?


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## odfrank

About five minutes into this film you see my original apiary a few years after I built Brother Adam hives. I am still using them today, a lot renovated as they are long into the rotting years. Bigger crops, don't get as tall, less swarming. 

https://youtu.be/8AAkO_jkGyQ


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## Fusion_power

I started cutting out 32 dividers so my square Dadant hives can be split and run as 2 queen colonies. I am using my new saw blade that cuts .042 inch wide kerf which is thinner than a dime. I can cut up to 1.5 inches thick which is better than I expected. So far, yield has gone up 9%. This is mostly because the new blade cuts out less wood when making small parts like frames or dividers. There would be very little improvement cutting larger parts. If I were a large manufacturer and found out a new saw blade could increase my profit 9%, you bet your boots I'd be buying new saw blades!

I'm making the dividers to split a brood chamber in half. It looks like a scrawny frame with a piece of corrugated plastic in the middle instead of foundation. The bottom boards will have a matching piece so the two sides are kept entirely separate. As per the example Bernhard provided, I will cut a notch in the top of the strip on the bottom board so the divider fits down into it. This resolves two problems. The first is to keep the divider aligned at all times. The second is to accomodate any shrinkage or expansion of the boxes or dividers.


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## JeronimoJC

Glad to hear you'll be doing this. Would love to see some pics, if you have a chance!


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## Fusion_power

Pics of the dividers I'm building. I laid a wired frame on top for the second pic so you can get a rough idea of size difference. The divider is made to fully block one side of the hive from the other. The wood pieces are just under 3/4 inch wide and just over 3/8 of an inch thick so it does not take up much space in the hive.


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## Fusion_power

I modified 3 bottom boards today to fit the dividers shown above. I had to trim the divider down 3/16 of an inch so everything would fit the way I wanted it to. I can easily cut all the side bars down at one time now that I know how much is needed. Most important, I can now make kits to modify my existing bottom boards quickly and easily. I should have some painted and ready to install tomorrow.

The final configuration will be 7 frames at 11 1/4 inches deep in each side with a divider in the middle. This will keep the queens separated yet let the colonies share heat over the winter. The capacity of 7 frames is equivalent to 9 Langstroth deep frames. My plan is to winter as many 2 queen colonies as possible in this configuration and then either split them into separate colonies next spring or sell a queen from each colony, or run them as a 2 queen colony for honey production.


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## JeronimoJC

Why was it necessary to modify the bottom boards?

Will you be able to move the dividers if you wanted to?


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## Fusion_power

I have to keep the queens completely separate over winter so there can't be a gap beneath the divider. I cut a cypress rail 3/4 x 3/4 x 20 inches long and used my dado blade to cut a groove in the top so the divider will slip down into the groove. The rail is attached to the bottom board with 3 screws so it can be removed easily if I ever choose to do so. The divider is removable just like a frame. The result is a thin divider that heat will pass through easily yet will keep the colonies completely separate. In effect, I now have a single box equipped to run 2 side by side nucleus colonies over winter.


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## sakhoney

fusion - I am keeping up with your thread as I am a woodworker myself. And some of the stuff you come up with - its great. But now here comes the question. Do you really get that cold to need that or is it just to get extra queens through the winter. Also on the divider board - it looks like you went all the way to the bottom board - am I correct on this?
Really - I like your post. Got a buddy that has some of those jumbos in 8 framers. A 14 framer - wheu - that should keep anybody from carting that off


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## Fusion_power

I want a source of queens in early spring before they are available from Florida. I want the benefits of running a nucleus colony operation over winter using my own queens. I want to be able to run 2 queen colonies for honey production. This hive is set up to meet all these objectives and then some.

If I choose to sell a queen in the spring, I get immediate revenue from selling a high quality queen plus I have all the extra brood just in time for the main nectar flow. It is effectively a 2 queen system where the extra queen is pulled just before the flow.

If I choose to keep both queens, I can split them into separate hives and now I have two singles to produce honey.

If I lose one colony over winter, no problem, just remove the divider and manage as a single queen colony through the flow.

This is the most flexible beekeeping system I was able to come up with that is cost effective to build and has no major management flaws. It has all the advantages of a nucleus system like Kirk Webster or Mike Palmer use but requires less equipment.


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## sakhoney

I hear ya - that why I just cut out 100 5 framers - for all the reasons you just gave - but ya didn't answer my question on the divider - does it go all the way to the bottom board or did you shim it up to meet it


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## Fusion_power

Read the posts above. I cut a rail 3/4 x 3/4 x 20 inches long and attached it to the bottom board with screws. I cut a dado in the top of the rail about 5/16 of an inch deep for the divider to fit into. This gives positive placement for the divider so that it won't move to one side or the other. There won't be a way to cross over which could get queens killed.


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## Jim 134

Like was mentioned before. You can buy all the Dadant equipment you want if you're willing to go to Europe.
https://www.thorne.co.uk/ just download a catalog.


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Fusion_power

Thorne sells the 11 frame Modified Dadant. It is not the 12 frame square Dadant as used by Brother Adam. Square Dadant can be purchased from several places in Germany and Italy. https://www.imkertechnik-wagner.de/shop/magazinbeuten/12er-dadant-blatt.html


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## Michael Bush

Dadant ran 11 frames in his square 12 frame box... he spaced them 1 1/2" on center.


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## Fusion_power

Mike, you might want to re-read Dadants book on beekeeping. Dadant's hive held 9 frames spaced 1.5 inches center to center. They were both longer and deeper than Langstroth frames. The Modified Dadant - aka Dadant Blatt hive - is rectangular and holds 11 frames on 1.5 inch spacing with internal dimensions 16 13/16 by 18 5/16. Brother Adam adopted the 12 frame Modified Dadant which has internal measurements 18 5/16 by 18 5/16 therefore is a true square. The primary advantage of the Modified Dadant hive is that frames can be directly transferred from Langstroth equipment into the Dadant hives. This permits manipulations that are not possible with the original Dadant hive which was based on Quinby's work.

https://books.google.com/books?id=4-8sAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=blatt&f=false


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## Jim 134

Fusion_power said:


> Thorne sells the 11 frame Modified Dadant. It is not the 12 frame square Dadant as used by Brother Adam. Square Dadant can be purchased from several places in Germany and Italy. https://www.imkertechnik-wagner.de/shop/magazinbeuten/12er-dadant-blatt.html


Are the frames or the foundation that Thorne sell same size or Style as the original Dadant Hive ??

BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Fusion_power

The original Dadant hive was about 2 inches longer and held 9 frames nearly an inch deeper than the Modified Dadant hives and frames. I don't know if they are still manufactured, but if they are, it will be in France.

Both 11 frame and 12 frame Modified Dadant aka Dadant Blatt hives are available from several European suppliers. They all make 11 1/4 inch deep frames built to be spaced 1.5 inches center to center. The frames sold as Dadant Blatt and the foundation for those frames will fit a square hive 18 5/16 by 18 5/16 by 11 5/8 inches deep.


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## Fusion_power

I have a total of 27 supers and another dozen brood chambers to assemble. Today I finished cutting rails to equip all of my bottom boards. I have all the parts cut to finish making dividers. My next job is to cut entrance reducers for all of the hives. This will take an hour or so tomorrow.

Here is what I have so far.

28 bottom boards and 28 migratory covers all painted and either on hives or else ready to use.

24 deep boxes assembled, painted, and all but one with bees installed

28 rails cut out to equip all of the bottom boards so a divider can be installed in the hive body above

10 dividers assembled and enough parts to assemble 20 more, will take an hour and a half to finish them

8 shallow supers assembled and painted 4 of which are full of honey to be extracted


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## JeronimoJC

Fusion, we need pictures sir! I am interested, need the visuals, please.


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## Fusion_power

Today marks a milestone, I got the last colony out of Langstroth equipment and into a square Dadant. I took off just over 50 pounds of honey in a Langstroth deep honey super from this colony. It is extracted and settling. I still have 6 shallow square supers to extract which should add another 200 pounds to the total. From this point forward, I will be focusing on getting them ready for winter. There is a LOT to be done over the next 2 months.


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## skyscraper

For custom making just one hive body, can't I just get a deep frame kit and cut sides down where two sides pieces can be joined into a single long piece with glue (Tightbond III) and maybe staples? And then use two mediums, maybe cutting one down a little for the box?

~Laurie - Any updates on your custom hive? How did the bees do drawing the foundationless frames? I was thinking of going foundationless for the brood chamber.


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## Fusion_power

I'm still making frames with 280 top bars completed and 340 end bars finished. I have maybe 100 bottom bars cut so tomorrow will be about 2 hours cutting enough to finish 280 frames, then assemble maybe 100 frames. I have boxes to put them in so there is no issue with storage.

Other items to work on include wrapping up painting. I probably won't get this done tomorrow.


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## Fusion_power

Welcome to the "deep" side!

I went to see Albert Zook today and arranged for him to make 10 more square deep hives with top, bottom, brood box, shallow super, and slatted rack. I am offering them here at my cost for anyone who wants a few to trial. Here are the conditions:

1. Whatever Zook winds up charging me will be the cost of the hives plus $5 each for my time driving up to get them.
2. I will include 14 of the 1.25 end bar frames with each box if you want them at a price of $1.50 unassembled or $2.50 fully assembled and wired.
3. You will have to purchase foundation from Dadant if you want full sheets of foundation. Dadant is doing a custom run of 10 5/8 wired with long hooks 5.1 foundation which you can call and order. If you call, ask for Arlen and tell him the size.
4. Here are the equipment items I requested: 10 solid cypress bottom boards, 10 cypress migratory tops, 10 square hive bodies cut 11 5/8 inches deep with finger joints and hand holds, 10 slatted racks with cypress rim and pine slats, and ten 5 3/4 shallow supers.
5. I can assemble the boxes and fill them with assembled frames if you want them that way. They will be glued with titebond 3 and nailed with galvanized spiral nails and frame nails.
6. Actual cost of shipping either via USPS or UPS will be added to the total.
7. I will make up some 2 queen kits with a divider and wood strips to make the required modifications. Let me know if you are interested in running them as 2 queen hives and I'll include the kit.
8. I can include a shallow 5 3/4 super or can get other sizes if anyone wants them. I can get square 9 5/8 or 6 5/8 supers if you would prefer that size. Please consider carefully how many supers so I can get them at the same time as the boxes. Each super will require 12 frames for honey storage.
9. I don't have excluders for these yet, but will order some from Europe in a few weeks. Let me know if you want an excluder at a cost somewhere around $15 including shipping to the U.S.
10. The equipment won't be ready until sometime in January. He has to purchase 12 inch wide lumber and kiln dry it which will take about 6 to 8 weeks.
11. I will limit each request to 3 hives max and would prefer to sell them in pairs.
12. In order to respect beesource requirements, these will be sold as close as possible to my cost. Expect each hive to run about $70 unassembled and roughly $30 each for shipping. If you want everything fully assembled, add about $20. Two queen kits, supers, and excluders will be extra. 
The intent is to get some Dadant hives out for trial.

Please post here in the thread if you are interested, then send me a PM stating what you would like to get. Keep in mind that you have to provide paint and bees. You can set a hive of 9 1/8 frames into these boxes and gradually remove the old frames as the bees build on the deeps.


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## Don Warren

Fp, I would like to buy a pair of your 14 frame square Dadant hives. I'm 2 or 3 counties NE of you. I would like to have an experience to compare to my 8/10 frame Lang boxes. Thank you for your contribution to this very interesting thread. A PM will follow.


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## Fusion_power

Yesterday marked a milestone for me with the square Dadant equipment. I completed assembly of all the cypress boxes I purchased from Albert Zook. I need to paint several of the boxes assembled over the last few days and I still need about 200 more frames assembled to go with the @275 already done. At this point, I have:

38 square deep boxes
32 square shallow supers
28 migratory covers
28 solid bottom boards

I visited Zook 2 weeks ago and asked him to make some more equipment.

12 migratory tops
12 solid bottom boards
10 square deep hive bodies
30 more shallow supers
40 Killion deep bottom boards (just the outside rails, I am making the slats to fit)

I will sell 10 of the square deeps as above leaving me with everything I need to run 30 colonies of bees. With the 2 queen kits, I can keep 60 queens in operation for at least 9 months giving me up to 30 queens to replace losses and/or have queens to sell.


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## squarepeg

nice! i suspect there may be some demand for your queen's next season.


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## Fusion_power

I made a frame jig yesterday. It turned out to be exactly the right dimensions to hold 14 frames. I had a piece of leftover ash wood from a project 2 years ago. It was about 4 inches wide and looked long enough to make a decent jig. I cut two pieces off of it the right length for a frame to fit inside, then cut the remainder in half. When I assembled it, 14 end bars fit into it like a glove. I sanded it smooth but have not yet varnished it.










Here are the finished frames being dumped out of the jig.










and here is a super as I am filling it with frames.










I purchased 500 wedge top bar divided bottom bar frames from Kelley with 10% off for cyber Monday. Here is what 500 frames stacked and ready to assemble looks like.










I don't like having to use a knife to cut the wedge free from the top bar so I ran them through my tablesaw using my micro kerf blade to cut the wedge loose. It took nearly 2.5 hours or about 15 seconds per frame! Now think of the time spent cutting wedges free and realize just how much time can be consumed. I want my 2.5 hours back! I would much rather purchase frames with wedges cut off and bundled separate from the top bars.

Here are interior dimensions of a square deep hive body:
Length 18 5/16 (465 mm)
Width 18 5/16 (465 mm)
Height 11 5/8 (295 mm)

Langstroth interior dimensions are:
Length 18 5/16 (465 mm)
Width 14 11/16 (373 mm)
Height 9 5/8 (243 mm)

I am putting 12 frames in each shallow super for honey. They fit with 1.75 inches to spare.

I put in some time figuring out queen excluders for the square deep hives. An old slightly rusty wood bound excluder served as a guinea pig. I cut it into strips and then figured out what I would need to make wood and wire excluders for a square hive. A langstroth excluder is 18 13/16 long by 15 7/16 wide. The wood rim adds 3/4 of an inch each way to fit on a hive. For a single excluder, I need a square 18 13/16 by 18 13/16 or for two separate half excluders, 18 13/16 by 9 inches. Why two half excluders? So I can put a divider in a hive and have an excluder over each side. This will keep the queen in one side while I am working the other. I'm going to make a few calls Monday and see if I can purchase excluders in the U.S. I can build the wooden frame and would prefer to do so with cypress wood.


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## DerTiefster

Likely a different audience here than in the other thread where I asked this question 

post 157 of http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ning-two-queen-colonies&p=1495510#post1495510

The question is whether a workable substitute for a Jumbo could be had by doubling a medium box and replacing the sides of the frames with sides 6-5/8" longer than those of medium frames. The doubled medium frames could be stuffed with a double course of medium foundation suitably reinforced at the center taking up at the same time the extra ~1/2" of depth beyond the two medium foundation sheets. Other patch-it-up measures exist, like using a bit of wax foundation or smooth solid filler. Probably one would add a mid-frame horizontal 1/2" separator locating the two other pieces cleanly.

This just seemed to me to be a straightforward means of supplying the O.P.'s question here about a source for "extra-large hive bodies." Been thinking about doing it, as I ordered some extra medium boxes lately.

Michael


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## Fusion_power

This has been proposed by a couple of other beesource members. Read this thread for some thoughts on frames that are too deep to extract.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?316006


Since I'm in here anyway, here is an update. I have been assembling shallow frames for honey supers at a steady rate. I now have 15 square shallow supers full with 12 frames each plus some extra frames not yet in supers. My goal is to assemble 500 shallow frames over the next month. I am also working on deep brood boxes getting more of them painted and ready for next spring. Steady progress over a period of months is my objective.


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## AR Beekeeper

For queen excluders used with the square boxes just build a 3/8 inch thick frame to fit the box. Center a standard queen excluder on the frame and add pieces of plywood the thickness of the excluder to fill the empty space at the sides. The bees will use the excluder to move between boxes and will build little or no burr comb on the sides with the wooden area. I used this setup for about 5 years with my square boxes and had no excluder problems.


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## sweetas

That's no help because he (or she) wold be a lot stronger than you). Suggest you keep the same frame size throughout.


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## Fusion_power

I purchased more lumber today to continue building frames and other hive parts. 16 - 2 X 6 X 8' spruce @ $3.56 each, 4 - 1 X 12 X 16' pine shelving @ $15.99 each, and 4 - 2 X 6 X 8' treated to build a worktable @ $6.36.

I had cut about 900 end bars and have now assembled all of them into frames that are wired and stored in painted ready to go square deep boxes. Add foundation and they are ready for the bees. I need about 200 more frames for things like queen nucs and I plan to make about 200 frames to sell. I have plenty of bottom bars cut and ready to use and about 130 top bars fully cut and ready to go. I have about 300 top bars that are still blanks needing to be cut. My goal is to cut end bars over the next few weeks until I have enough to assemble at least 400 more frames.

I also plan to convert my old Langstroth deeps into jumbos by adding a 2 inch deep eke on the bottom. With a bit of work, I can turn them into double queen nucs. I plan to raise queens on frames ready to set over into square deeps for honey production.

At this point, I have 14 of the square deep hives in use with bees in them, about half are set up as 2 queen colonies. I have 20 square deeps full of frames ready for foundation. I have 30 square shallow supers of which 7 need frames. I plan to assemble frames for them over the next few weeks. I still need to paint some tops and bottoms and do a bit of touch up work on some of the other equipment. There are 3 square deeps that are painted and ready, but do not have frames for them yet.

My goal is 30 working hives of bees with 2 queens in each for winter next year.


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## Lauri

shinbone said:


> _(I was just perusing this older thread)_
> 
> Lauri - I love how you try new things, and I am also impressed with your construction skills. Any updates on how this hive is doing?


Sorry about the slow reply, I have not been paying attention to this thread recently.
I got so busy last year this hive sat in my shop all summer! Never even attempted to fill it. Hopefully this spring I will have occupied photos to show you.


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## Fusion_power

Dadant just called to tell me my order for 200 pounds of 10 5/8 by 16 3/4 foundation with 5.1 cell size is ready. At my request, they will hold it to ship after the weather moderates. I also picked up 30 more shallow supers and 12 more tops and bottoms from Albert Zook yesterday.

Here is what I have:
38 square deeps with 10 more on order
40 migratory tops, 12 are new and need paint
40 bottom boards, 12 are new and need paint
64 square shallow supers, 30 need to be assembled and painted
about 400 assembled and wired 11 1/4 deep frames with 1 1/4 inch end bars
Frame parts to build another 400 deep frames with some parts needing further machining
250 assembled shallow frames plus another 200 older shallow frames many of which have drawn comb
250 unassembled shallow frames which I will be working on in the next few days
15 internal dividers and parts to build another 25 or so

I am working on queen excluders but would prefer stainless steel if available. One of my problems over the years is that steel excluders eventually rust even if they are galvanized. I want an excluder that is good for 50 years of service.


For those of you who want to get a couple of these boxes with frames and foundation, I should have everything ready to go in about 6 more weeks.


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## snl

Fusion_power said:


> I want an excluder that is good for 50 years of service.


50 years? You going to be around then?


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## DerTiefster

You'll find an optimist here and there. Apparently here. Think of it this way: If one already knows how to survive for 60 or 70 years, demonstrated and documented, shouldn't he/she stand a respectable chance of doing it again?

I'm still looking into making some double-medium frames to go into stacked medium boxes. Looks like fun even if it turns out not to be useful for me. Maybe in my second 60 yrs....


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## odfrank

I got square excluders from Swienty decades ago. I will check if they are stainless. They are a weird size, something like 19 1/2" square fitting inside the boxes, so I made them into woodbound excluders.


Here you go...German 500mm:

https://www.bienen-voigt.de/en/beekeeper-products/queen-excluder-metal-500x500mm

About 19 5/8".

I think you will have a hard time finding stainless.


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## Lauri

Anyone ever cheat & just combine 2 frames to get their jumbo deep frames? Seems simple enough. Sure you'll get a lump at the joint, I don't see where that matters much. If they're used for b_rood nest only_, should be plenty strong.

Just secure together & hack off the bottom ear. 

2 mediums would net you a 19" x 12" jumbo
deep and medium as shown here 19 x 15 1/2"
2 deeps and you'll get 19 x 18 1/2

























I'm going to just add a third board to my double queenunits to deepen them up if I want a square frame.









Below is how a standard deep frame fits right now. As long as I give them room to move up when they are on the build, I don't get the mess below like you would think. Very little comb building under frames in the void area.









Those long deep brood combs still intrigue me. But would like to have them more accessible than this to manage.


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## AR Beekeeper

I cut deep frames and add/glue in a splice from scrap fir or pine lumber long enough to make an end bar 12 7/8 inches. This gives a working area of 11 3/4 inches deep. Frames deeper are hard to handle in strong winds, also if you go much deeper the bees store honey below that could go into the surplus supers above.


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## Fusion_power

I try to first figure out what I am trying to achieve, then build the equipment to fit. Building deep frames for the sake of having deep frames is not likely to achieve much.

The bees need between 110,000 and 125,000 cells in the brood chamber to have enough honey for winter and enough brood area for spring buildup. The size box required to achieve this brood area is about 18 inches by 18 inches by 12 inches. A square Dadant brood chamber fits admirably for providing this amount of space. As noted by AR Beekeeper, too much honey in the brood box just limits the amount that could be collected and sold. I want enough... but not too much.

The frames have to fit in an extractor. I happen to have an older Kelley extractor that was made to extract Dadant depth frames.

I wanted a hive design amenable to use for a two queen system. Square Dadant happens to be highly viable for running a 2 queen system.

The frames have to be readily manipulated. I tried some frames deeper than 11 1/4 inches, but found taking them out of the box a bit difficult. The end bars seem to go on forever when I am trying to avoid crushing bees as I pull out a frame. I decided that 11 1/4 inches deep is enough.

The objective is to enhance the space available for a queen to lay eggs. With the square Dadant design, there are only 56 corners in the frames. By comparison, a double brood Langstroth hive has 80 corners. Queens don't like to lay in the corners of frames so I'm giving them fewer corners.


Think through operation of these hives and it will make a lot more sense. I will raise queens in deep frame nucs during the summer, then move the nucs into square Dadant production hives in the fall setting up 2 queen colonies for winter. In the spring, pull one queen to sell leaving the brood in the hive just at the start of the main nectar flow. I sold a queen and I have nearly twice as many bees out foraging to make honey. What if one queen doesn't survive winter? I pull out the divider and voila, the other queen takes over the entire box and produces a crop of honey. I should be able to eliminate non-productive hives by using a 2 queen system! In early summer after the spring flow, I can pull frames of brood to make up nucs to raise more queens. This is a sustainable and repeatable system.


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## squarepeg

pretty darn smart dar, can't wait to see how it works out for you in terms of swarm prevention and honey production. will the 2 queen dadants have the honey supers removed for overwintering?


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## Fusion_power

I received confirmation that 40 queen excluders for square Dadant hives can be provided by Propolis-CA. 

I am making steady progress with building equipment. I now have enough deep frames made up to fill 5 more of the square Dadant boxes with 14 frames each. I have enough top bars to do one more round of 15 frames in the assembly jig, then will have to cut some more blanks into top bars. I have 400 blanks sitting ready to go.

Wintering so far has been very good with only one colony lost after running out of stores. I had fed that colony a gallon of syrup back in October, but they ate all of it and ran out. 

Zook is due to complete the remaining 10 square deep hive bodies sometime this month. When I get them assembled, I will have everything needed to run 30 colonies for myself and 8 more that will be sold to other beekeepers.


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## odfrank

Well it was a sad day....I had to chuck one of my old vintage 1979 12 frame Jumbo boxes into the debris box. I guess thirty seven-years service ain't too bad. Now I need to build a few more boxes, and covers of some sort. My hives are rotting faster than my body.


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## Fusion_power

Here are some pics to give perspective. These bees are all highly mite resistant. Look carefully and you will see zero mites. My bees were last treated in fall 2004 spring 2005.

This is a picture of a BWeaver line queen mated to drones from my line. She is outstanding in honey production, gentleness, and has excellent performance against hive beetles.









Here are two of her brood frames.

















This is a colony with a carpenter line queen. Note the brood pattern. The second pic shows a couple of workers with bright red/orange pollen from the same colony.

















This is a queen from my line. She is set for breeding this year. Her only weakness is that her colony is not as good against hive beetles as the BWeaver hive.









This pic is of a frame of eggs and young larvae from a Carpenter line queen.









And this is a very out of focus photo of the Carpenter queen that produced the larvae. I was holding the frame with one hand and snapping the pic with the other. I moved the camera too much resulting in this poor photo.


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## Fusion_power

I will have excluders in about 6 weeks. Time is passing fast with the bees building up for spring.


I received 200 pounds (1200 sheets) of Dadant 10 5/8 foundation today. This is enough to keep me in foundation for at least 3 years.









Here is a photo of a sheet of 5.4 on top of a sheet of 5.1 with a ruler to show the difference in cell size.


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## Fusion_power

I assembled the first 2 Killion deep bottom boards today after cutting the slats and supports. These are modified to support running 2 queens side by side. I had Albert Zook cut the outside frame and divider for $6 each. I am making parts for the inside. I expect to tie up about 30 minutes each in cutting, assembly, and painting. I'll take a picture of one tomorrow and post it here.


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## Clayton Huestis

FP when you gonna have that pic of those BB's? Built a buckfast dadant hive years ago but never got to using it, think I will try it out this year. Can you explain how you converted your hives? Always like to here other ppls methods.


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## DerTiefster

I'll second the motion just made. The vote is overwhelming. At least two to one in favor of pics. I don't have much to show on my side, being only up to about six fabricated frames, myself, but I'm readying for my chicken/cheapie approach to learning about this deep frame management and dual-queen hive approach. The season is about to leap upon us.

Michael


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## Fusion_power

This is the top of the slatted rack as built and modified so I can run 2 queens with a divider in the middle. The bottom board has a matching rail which prevents bees from crossing from one side to the other.









Here is a view of the bottom.









This is a pic with a divider set into the notch. Look closely and you can see that when a hive body is in place the divider will completely separate the two sides.


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## Lburou

Your pictures are motivating me on these issues Dar, thanks! 

Did you mention your frame spacing?


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## Clayton Huestis

Dar going to build two more buckfast dadant colonies to give me 3 this spring to test them out to see if I like the management. As I have no 10 5/8 foundation at this point. I plan to take a stack of emply combs cut them out of my deep lang frames mount them into my 11 1/4 frames take an extra comb zip off 2 inch strip and fill into the empty space to give me fully drawn dadant frames which will be tied in and allow the bees to work there magic on solidifying things. Probably put a 2 inch eke on the bottom of a deep lang till they are working the deep frames then place the rest of the brood over excluder till they are fully on the dadant frames. Then final switch to the dadant hive. Seem doable to you with out allot of fuss?


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## Fusion_power

Clayton, if you want some foundation, I have plenty of 5.1 or Dadant has 5.4 in stock.

LBurou, my frames are on 32 mm spacing which is just fraction over 1 1/4 inches. This compares with Langstroth at 1 3/8 and Dadant standard at 1 1/2 inches. The frames can easily be spaced wider if you choose or kept narrow to encourage early spring buildup.


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## Clayton Huestis

Dar, Will probably take you up on the foundation offer as 5.1 is more to my preference. For now however I plan to tie in combs so I can test out the management of the buckfast dadant hives, especially need to see bees wintering in them before I would convert over to them. I pretty sure though bees will be just fine in them. I've got a good plan to get accomplished what I want to see. Spent last night reading Manley's "Honey Farming". He had some interesting things to say about the Dadant hive. Firstly he advocated a telescoping cover that over hang at least 6 inches. This would allow for a lid that would not blow off the hive as it would catch before it could. He also advocated frames in the honey supers that had a wide bottom bar along with spacing that allowed for thicker combs to facilitate easier uncapping. I've got at least 50 side by side 4 frame nucs (100 nucs). Plan to nail 2 inch eke on the bottom and extend the divider to keep using palmer style over wintering nucs just in dadant depths. I will continue to us my langstroth quad mating nucs as these over winter and I think they will be acceptable to continue using. I wonder if there would be an interest in ppl wanting dadant depth nucs? Maybe I will offer some in a few years should I decide to officially go in this direction.


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## shinbone

Fusion_power said:


> Here is why I am going with Square Dadant. In the fall, I would raise queens and get them mated in mini nucs. I would install a divider in one of the deep hives and introduce 2 queens setting up what in effect is 2 nucs though with comb capacity equivalent to 9 Langstroth frames on each side. I would overwinter in this configuration, then manage the bees for buildup the next spring. Sometime around April 15th, pull a queen to sell and remove the divider. . . . .


Dar - Sounds like a good plan. Would you please go into more detail about the details of removing the divider after removing the queen? How long to wait to remove the divider after removing the queen? Do you just simply yank the divider out, or is it slowly removed over a period of time so the two hives get used to each other? Do you temporarily insert some sort of screen to separate the bees while they get to know one another. Any other issues to know about?

TIA

--shinbone


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## dtrooster

Fusion_power said:


> if you want some foundation, I have plenty of 5.1 .


I tried to messge you but your box is full. If you still have a box of this available, send me a message


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## Fusion_power

I have plenty of 5.1 foundation. Send me a message stating how many sheets you want and an address to ship. I paid Dadant right at $2 per sheet so would like to get that back plus shipping. I will double box to ship. A full box as I received it from Dadant should be 64 sheets.


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## dtrooster

You get my message?


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## Brad Bee

I went to visit Mr Zook today. I walked in looking for a 70 year old man and found a young man instead. Nice guy and good looking products. I wound up with a truck full of boxes. His commute to work must be rough.....


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## dtrooster

> I received confirmation that 40 queen excluders for square Dadant hives can be provided by Propolis-CA.


 this that Canadian bee outfit? Might be easier than me cobbling together some frankenstein excluders


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## Fusion_power

Yes, it is the Canadian outfit. They import Swienty equipment and resell in North America. I'm waiting on word when they will have the queen excluders. They were supposed to arrive sometime in late April.


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## dtrooster

Thanks. Keep us updated, I'd be interested in a few


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## shinbone

Here's a link to my new Dadant Deeps being put into action:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?336373-The-forgotten-quot-Dadant-Deep-quot-hive

Thanks to Fusion_Power for all his work on these hive bodies.


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## dtrooster

Hey Fusion, have you homebuilt excluders for the square boxes yet? I've got my hands on a wire rim for a 10 framer and trying to decide how to do it, before I go to hacking. Looks like 2 - 1" wide splices along with the 1" rim ought to do me. My boxes are a full 1" thick. A 3/4" thick rim and splices would put me at 5/16" above and below. Sound about right?


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## Fusion_power

I'm using a 9/16 inch thick rim. Are you using top space or bottom space in your boxes? The excluder needs a deep 5/16 side and a shallow 1/16 side to work with either.

I'm still waiting to hear back from Propolis-CA re the square excluders.


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## dtrooster

OK. so no fudging on bee space above or below. I was trying to cheat so when the bees gorilla glue it to the boxes I don't tear it to pieces getting it off. My boxes are top spaced. 

This swarm is getting down on drawing comb, doubtful I make another week before almost everything drawn out and need to add a super. BUT, it may have had a virgin queen. I've seen her but yet to see eggs or larvae, doesn't mean they aren't there. I'm gonna give it until next weekend for a visual before making a move on that. Lots of nectar being put up, scattered in all frames. I pulled that frame of uncapped the day after I put it in because of it.

Thanks


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## Fusion_power

Once the queen starts laying in the deep box, you can put a super of foundation above and she will respect it and lay only in the large box. This won't work if there is room for drone cells in the super and if the queen is a year or more old. I've been able to get a queen to lay in a double deep Dadant hive by moving frames of brood to the upper box. None of my queens so far can keep a double box occupied so eventually honey gets stored in the top box and brood in the bottom.


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## Fusion_power

I got an update today re the square queen excluders. They should arrive about the end of this month. I'll message the people who want them when they get here.

For grins, here are a couple of pics of the hives. On the left is a queen of my line that is hauling in nectar to the tune of about 5 pounds a day. On the right is a hive with a load of cells nearly sealed from a Buckfast queen. The Buckfast are doing a respectable job but cut back on foraging when I diverted them to producing queen cells. We are in the middle of a very heavy flow. These pictures were taken about 5:00 pm local time. The sound of bees flying in and out is like being in a busy airport.


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## dtrooster

:thumbsup:


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## shinbone

F_p - looks good!

Is running _two_ Dadant Deeps the way you normally your hives?


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## Fusion_power

No, I would not normally put two of them on a hive, but I need a lot of drawn comb. The best way to get comb drawn is on top of a strong colony during a heavy flow.


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## Fusion_power

I'm at the point of having managed square Dadant hives over an entire year starting from putting the first colonies in last spring. There is no way on earth I would go back to Langstroths! Management methods are simpler and take less time. Capacity of a single brood box is more than enough for the best queens I have. Raising queens with these hives is very easy though if I were a queen breeder, I would make some modifications specific to raising queens. An example would be to build a cage frame so the queen can be caged onto a single frame for egg laying.

There are a few areas that are problems and that I will have to work on. The bees do not like to draw out comb to the side of the brood nest until the brood nest is very crowded with bees. They will work above the brood nest in supers much more readily. I don't have queen excluders for these hives yet, but can tell that excluders are going to be needed (they are on order). The bees draw out drone cells in the extracting super which the queen lays in. I want the extracting supers brood free. Managing combs by moving frames of foundation into the edge of the brood nest is the best way to get good combs drawn. This works best during a strong nectar flow.

Honey supers are heavy. I'm using shallow 5 11/16 supers that weigh about 50 pounds when full. I am building hive stands that are roughly 18 inches high to get the hives up off the ground a bit. This puts the supers on top of the brood box @30 inches which is a good distance to work without excessive lifting. I suggest others consider putting these hives on 18 inch high stands if they are in permanent locations.

Swarming is still a problem, especially given that my bees are from a line with very strong tendency to swarm yearly. I managed swarming well enough in half my colonies but did not do so well in others. The result was 3 swarms and a few hives that had to be split into nucs at the beginning of the main flow. This would be unacceptable in a commercial operation.

My goal for this summer is to produce enough queens to requeen everything. I've got to get busy!


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## dtrooster

> There is no way on earth I would go back to Langstroths!


 only one that's only been checked a couple times and I already know this


> I suggest others consider putting these hives on 18 inch high stands if they are in permanent locations.


 having a sawhorse table to swing the supers directly onto will come in handy also

keep the tips coming :thumbsup:


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## dtrooster

I usually put an 1/8" shim the width of the hivebody on my migratory covers. I'm thinking of going to 3/8" thick with a swing gate like snelgrove boards have, just to have an no hassle, adjustable top entrance/vent.


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## shinbone

Did an inspection on one of my Dadant Deep hives yesterday. The package was installed a little over two weeks ago. Things are looking good, and the queen is loving the extra room to lay in.


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## dtrooster

She came from a package. I bet she is, haha. Joking aside, these hives are where it's at. No bs, peel off supers, check a couple frames, done. I get feeble, my sons gonna have to get my slack for the lifting. Simple as that


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## Fusion_power

These are the hive stands I am building.











And here it is standing with a ruler showing the top is 19 inches from the ground.


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## shinbone

Nice! I like how it collapses for easy storage.


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## JeronimoJC

I use wood pallets (easy to find free) on cinder blocks for hive stands. 

I also use shallow suppers. Deeps are only for brood nest. 

Swarming is a challenge for me as well.


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## 1102009

I work with a wheelbarrow as long as I need two square deeps in spring to expand the hives.
I shift the frames and back. It´s not possible for me to lift the boxes, but working like that is very easy.
It´s possible to take one or two frames of honey or check the brood.

When the brood areas fill the frames they go up but not before because of the thick top bars.
It´s an advantage for keeping them in the bottom box, but a disadvantage in winter , because it´s a barrier for the cluster to move up into honey stores. I have to be careful of that.

The strip of wood at the bottom is because the bees came to me on Zander 1.5 which is even longer than dadant deep. I still have some frames so I have a medium put underneath.


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## Fusion_power

I found another minor problem with the square deep hives. My bee blower had to be cranked up all the way to move bees out of one of the deep boxes. This is not significant, but is enough to caution others to watch for.


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## Fusion_power

I extracted several of the 11 1/4 frames using my 50 year old Kelley tangential extractor. This is not the first time I've appreciated my old extractor, but it is the first time I've seen it perform as it was intended. It was made to handle four 11 1/4 frames or eight 5 3/8 frames. 8 frames extracted yielded 80 pounds of honey. The frames will now be returned to the bees and used to expand nucs in preparation for winter. I don't intend to produce honey in the deep frames. Twelve of them full of honey plus the box weigh about 130 pounds. I would much rather handle the 5 11/16 supers that weight closer to 50 pounds.

All considered, I'm happy with the results. The only disparities so far are either items I expected or items that don't make a lot of difference. I consider the use of my bee blower to be an issue. I will try to fit in time to work on the fan this winter. A minor redesign should increase both air volume and air speed. I want the blower to hit the bees and push them out fast. This is not the first time I've considered the air speed to be too low. It has shown similar performance in Lang deeps.

For future reference, a thick 11 1/4 comb will weigh about 12 pounds and yield just under 11 pounds of honey Normal thickness combs will yield just over 10 pounds. These frames are significantly heavier than Langstroth frames when full of honey.


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## shinbone

Fusion_power said:


> I extracted several of the 11 1/4 frames using my 50 year old Kelley tangential extractor.


I am wondering how those big frames with all that honey would hold up to the rigors of being run through a centrifuge? There is large expanse of comb in those 11-1/4" frames, which would seem to increase the chances of blow-outs in the extractor. Did you take any extra precautions as compared to extracting a normal deep frame?

I won't be extracting my 11-1/4" frames, so just curious . . .


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## Fusion_power

No extra precautions were needed. I ran them the way I normally extract frames. The combs are wired properly which gives plenty of support. I am working at temps of 78 degrees which makes the honey fairly easy to extract.


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## 1102009

My deep dadant frame with space 33mm yields 6-10 pounds, being totally capped. Comb thickness is 26-28mm like my top bar.
This out of the side of brood area.
The combs in my mediums on top are thicker, I don´t know yet how much they yield. 

I think a blower is terrible. Why don´t you use a "Bienenflucht", Dar? I don´t know the english term for that.
https://www.google.de/search?q=Bien...wpt3UAhUE1RoKHX25Ab8QsAQIQA&biw=1862&bih=1012


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## Fusion_power

It is an escape board Sibylle. In a hot climate, the honey and wax can melt above an escape board. Once in a while, a queen will be trapped above the escape board which can cause other problems. Also, wax moths and hive beetles will invade the combs very rapidly.

A blower is relatively fast and easy by comparison. Shallow supers work very well with a bee blower. The bees think they got caught in a strong wind so they peacefully go back in their hive.

When I finally get some queen excluders that fit these hives, I may build a few escape boards. They would be useful in some cases.


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## 1102009

Ok if you say so. Thanks for the term.
I understand about your situation.
When I breathe on them the bees are kind of panicky so I could not imagine a blower....


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## Fusion_power

Bees have millennia of dealing with wind. Blowing on them is a totally different thing since it smells strange and bad to the bees. If you have an opportunity, watch someone use a bee blower to remove honey. I think you will find that it is the least invasive and easiest method. It causes minimal disruption of normal hive activity.


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## 1102009

Yes, my human thinking sometimes takes over. 

I brush my teeth  but maybe they think it´s a predator coming.


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## 1102009

Dar would you say it´s difficult for the bees to cross the gap from the bottom box to the medium on top if I use my thick frames? They are 26mm all around and space between is 33mm.
Especially the cluster in winter?

My thought are to overwinter with one dadant deep but I have to prepare them to fill this box with stores.


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## Fusion_power

No, they won't have a problem if the frame gap is too wide. They will fill it with comb until it meets their needs. Bees will build comb anywhere that they think the space is too wide. This usually makes a moveable frame into a glued in stuck in mess. This is why proper bee space should be observed with spacing between frames in the box and with spacing between boxes when they are stacked one on top of the other.


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## 1102009

Fusion_power said:


> No, they won't have a problem if the frame gap is too wide.


Oh, a misunderstanding, sorry.
It´s the NARROW space between frame bottoms which I believe a barrier for the bee cluster. Not the gap.


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## Fusion_power

The gap should be between 7 and 9 mm. If it is less than 7, combs will be burred together.


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## 1102009

It´s 7.
Ok, I will try to overwinter in one deep.
Take off all top boxes and brush the bees into the brood box before fall flow so they can arrange their overwintering nest.


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## Fusion_power

I received confirmation today that Propolis-Etc has 40 queen excluders and will ship them to me to arrive late next week. If anyone who has some of the hives wants excluders, please message me.


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## Roland

The inventors of the bee blower believe it is very important to have a chute below the super being blow to direct the bees to the ground in front of their hive, and NOT into the air.

Crazy Roland


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## odfrank

Roland said:


> The inventors of the bee blower believe it is very important to have a chute below the super being blow to direct the bees to the ground in front of their hive, and NOT into the air.Crazy Roland


OH NO!!! I've been doing it wrong for 40+ years!!!!


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## lharder

So I set up a square dadant, side by side 2 queen system with a couple of weak overwintered nucs this spring. All medium boxes, a brood nest of 2 6 frame boxes. I take comb out every inspection, place it in the upper boxes so they have a minimum of 8 medium brood combs each. 

They were at a mentees property. I'm getting a couple going with bees, and having a hive there for honey makes it worth my while. 

A couple of weeks ago I had them built up to 5 stories. I went to visit them to help get a couple of nucs going, and discovered the entire front of the setup covered with bees and lots of nectar in every box, top box nearly capped. I added 2 more boxes. A medium square dadant full of honey is pretty heavy.


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## shinbone

Dar - Any chance of getting bee escapes to fit the Dadant hives? That sure would be helpful come harvest time . . .


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## Fusion_power

Shinbone, I'll see what I can do to make a Quebec escape board for you.

I've been setting up 2 queen colonies for winter with a divider in a square Dadant hive. Today I had to separate two of the nucs putting them in individual hives. The reason is unusual. We have had very high rainfall this year which prolonged the spring flow at least a month longer than normal. As a result, bees continued to produce brood long after they would normally have halted and taken a mid-summer break. There was a huge positive in having an extended flow. I was able to raise queens with ease at a time when it would normally have been difficult. The nucs I was setting up continued to produce brood with the result that the 6 frame nucs became overcrowded. One of the nucs in this hive had expanded so much that bees were hanging in a permanent beard on the front of the hive. If I let them continue, they would eventually have killed the second queen. The best choice was to put them in separate hives.


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## 1102009

Dar, will they fill the box going into winter?
How did you provide? Comb, food, foundations?
Thanks, Sibylle


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## Fusion_power

We normally have a fall flow Sibylle. If it does not provide enough honey for the bees, I will feed with frames of honey and/or syrup if needed. I deliberately left quite a bit of honey on several hives. The extra frames of honey can be pulled and redistributed.


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## 1102009

Fusion_power said:


> We normally have a fall flow Sibylle. If it does not provide enough honey for the bees, I will feed with frames of honey and/or syrup if needed. I deliberately left quite a bit of honey on several hives. The extra frames of honey can be pulled and redistributed.


And did you fill with foundations or empty comb frames? Will they build comb this time of year?


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## Fusion_power

We are in our normal midsummer dearth so no comb being built here. The fall flow usually starts sometime in early to mid August.


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## lharder

I'm keeping some bees at a place I'm helping out a new beekeeper. They are a 2 queen system on a square dadant foot print. Still all mediums. Each queen has 2 6 frame boxes. Then I put on a queen excluder and top with 12 frame dadant boxes. The queens themselves barely made it out of winter in nucs. I had to help them out with nurse bees and brood before I installed them. Anyway I thought I would post a couple of pics. I added a couple of boxes after these photos. Also when I inspect I generally pull a couple of brood frames from the brood nest, so the queens have 10 to 12 medium frames to use.


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## GoodyFarms

Cool platform.


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## Clayton Huestis

Hey FP, you get those excluders yet? If so can you put up a pic?


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## Fusion_power

I will be building cypress frames for them this evening. Barring incident, a few will be ready for shipping tomorrow. I requested these in early February and did not receive them until the end of July. Shipping and handling was expensive bringing the cost per excluder to $25. They are decent quality. Given a choice and considering the price I would like to have been able to get them as stainless steel.


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## Clayton Huestis

Everything looks good FP. Got my Dadant hive dug out a few weeks ago. Only thing I plan to do different is 1 1/2 frames ( 12 per box). Prolly make a bunch of 2" shims to modify lang boxes into 10 frame jumbos to get combs drawn next year. Oh how I hate making frames. Think there is a market for 4 frame jumbo nucs?


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## Fusion_power

I cut out wooden frames for the queen excluders this evening. They have to be assembled tomorrow and then will be ready to ship.


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## Fusion_power

Here is a pic of some of the excluders with cypress rims. Thickness is precise to match bee space requirements with a deep side on top and shallow side on bottom. I will make some with a center divider so I can use them on 2 queen colonies.


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## shinbone

Those look great!


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## Brad Bee

Looks good. When you get to looking for your glasses, you left them on the excluders.


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## bkcrrtnps

Fusion_power said:


> I will be building cypress frames for them this evening. Barring incident, a few will be ready for shipping tomorrow. I requested these in early February and did not receive them until the end of July. Shipping and handling was expensive bringing the cost per excluder to $25. They are decent quality. Given a choice and considering the price I would like to have been able to get them as stainless steel.


Still have these?


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## RenegadeDrone

Fusion_power said:


> Thanks ODF, I wish Dadant still had wired wax 10 5/8 depth foundation. I agree emphatically that the side and bottom bars will have to be heavier than regular frames. I am going to make a few frames later this week to work out the details of wiring the frames with a crisscross zigzag pattern to better support the wax. I have a couple of ideas that should do the job.
> 
> It is amazing the solutions you can come up with when you put your mind to it. I have an old - 50 years old - 4 frame Kelley extractor that will do 4 Langstroth deep or 8 shallow 5 5/16 inch frames. The long dimension will not allow a full Dadant depth 11 1/4 inch frame to fit properly. I thought about this a bit and realized I can add 2 cheap pieces of expanded metal for about $10 that will allow me to extract Dadant 11 1/4 inch frames with ease. The only issue will be that only 2 frames will fit at a time. This is not an issue since I don't intend use these boxes for honey production, I just want to be able to extract honey for the occasional time that I need to get some out of the brood chamber. If I decide to make this a permanent change, I can modify the basket by adding 1/2 inch to the overall diameter and it will hold 4 Dadant deep frames. This would cost maybe $50 and a few hours of my time. It would be easy to do without significantly changing the way the extractor works.


Or you could modify the frame so that it can be broken up into two pieces...creating essentially 2 frames


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## shinbone

Lots of interesting option with these large bee boxes!


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## odfrank

Does anyone have any 10 5/8" foundation they want to sell me? Dadant will probably tell me 24lb minimum? I renovated 30 frames this year with spliced 8 1/8" verticle wire. I have about 30 more frames to build for 2022 but no foundation.


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