# Musings about Swarms and Trap Hives: Getting “Free-bees”



## RIbee (Apr 26, 2015)

I want to be YOU! 
Hey, any chance of getting some green beans from you (select)? I love Honduran coffee and I roast my own.


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

Coffee is one of the perks of living down here--I have my cup next to me right now. I hope you enjoyed the blog post.


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## southlake (Mar 22, 2016)

I actually got a free swarm about a week ago. I tried beekeeping about 5 years ago and it did not work out. So, I cleaned up my hive box a few days ago and put some beeswax and lemongrass oil in it and it only took about a day. They are still there. I walk out there just close enough to see that are still doing what they do. I have another hive box I have never used and I think I may tempt fate again. So, maybe i will end up with two feral swarms.


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

I always like when that happens to me also—I hang up some trap hives and within a week I have several of them already filled. Did you have the chance to see the swarm move in? Always neat to watch.

The second picture on my blog where the swarm is covering the trap hive happened right behind the house—maybe 25 feet from the back door. If I remember correctly, I was lying in the hammock in just shorts when I heard the buzzing. I slipped on the flip flops and basically got right underneath them/in the middle of them to watch them go in.


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## southlake (Mar 22, 2016)

I found the scouts checking it out then came back later and there was more activity


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## john beeman (Feb 28, 2016)

I may be close to my first swarm.....Bees have been going in and out now for 5 days. They seem to be cleaning the trap. Today I watched as the bees tried to remove the Q-tip with the LGO.....Not sure why they would want to do that.......


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

I hope the swarm arrives for you, John. But it’s not always a sure sign that the bees will come. I’ve seen lots of scouting activity and then nothing. It’s exactly like what was mentioned in the other thread you started, “What Happened…”.

As far as the Q-tip—I’m not quite sure. On the one hand it might be a sign of hygienic behavior, which is a good thing. Or they really like that smell—and are trying to forage it (???) You’ll have to wait a bit more and see what happens. Good luck.


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## john beeman (Feb 28, 2016)

Tomas, Much appreciate your contributions to this forum ! Keep them coming !!!


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## southlake (Mar 22, 2016)

Tomas said:


> I hope the swarm arrives for you, John. But it’s not always a sure sign that the bees will come. I’ve seen lots of scouting activity and then nothing. It’s exactly like what was mentioned in the other thread you started, “What Happened…”.
> 
> As far as the Q-tip—I’m not quite sure. On the one hand it might be a sign of hygienic behavior, which is a good thing. Or they really like that smell—and are trying to forage it (???) You’ll have to wait a bit more and see what happens. Good luck.


Has anyone had success using a 5 gallon bucket as a swarm trap? I decided to experiment today. I put a 1x1/2 inch hole on one side screwed in a couple of wax coated pieces of wood inside. i sprinkled a little lemongrass inside and out. So we will see what happens. I have a felling there will be scouts but maybe not a swarm. If somone has had success with 5 gallon plastic buckets let know I would like to know how you did it. 

The swarm i caught several days ago appear to be sticking around in the empty super i attracted them to. If the bucket idea does not work i will just pull out the brnad new super i have and see if I can make it happen again.


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

There is no reason it couldn’t work. I’ve seen swarms in lots of strange places. The size seems good to me.

However, a couple things come to mind. If the bucket is white, there might be too much light which could detract the bees. You might want to paint it or use a black bucket.

The other is that you will have to do a cut out if they stay in there for any amount of time—as in cut the combs out of the bucket or off the cover and tie them to a frame or top bar. New comb is always fragile and hard to work with. 

The other option would be to dump them out of the bucket and into a normal hive within a day or two, before they really start making comb. However, this type of disruption could cause them to take off on you, even if you can give them a comb or two of brood and honey from another hive (if you have one on hand). 

This is the problem I have in Honduras with shaking swarms into a box. They just about always take off on me, despite the combs with brood I give them. But that’s the nature of the Africanized bees. The European bees back in the States are a lot calmer so even if you go this route it should work better that it would for me.

So, here in Honduras I usually pass on these swarms unless they are really easy to shake into a box and I have time to take it to the apiary right away and get it some comb from another hive. I even pass on doing cutouts—way too much work and usually for nothing. Most people are reluctant to pay if I want to charge them.

Swarm traps are my thing.

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Tom


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## southlake (Mar 22, 2016)

Tomas said:


> There is no reason it couldn’t work. I’ve seen swarms in lots of strange places. The size seems good to me.
> 
> However, a couple things come to mind. If the bucket is white, there might be too much light which could detract the bees. You might want to paint it or use a black bucket.
> 
> ...


As far as the bucket goes I used a silver bucket that is not transluscent with a black lid, so it should be completely dark inside. The removal is of course a concern. First things first though, I need to get some bees to use it.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

southlake said:


> Has anyone had success using a 5 gallon bucket as a swarm trap? I decided to experiment today. I put a 1x1/2 inch hole on one side screwed in a couple of wax coated pieces of wood inside. i sprinkled a little lemongrass inside and out. So we will see what happens. I have a felling there will be scouts but maybe not a swarm. If somone has had success with 5 gallon plastic buckets let know I would like to know how you did it.
> 
> The swarm i caught several days ago appear to be sticking around in the empty super i attracted them to. If the bucket idea does not work i will just pull out the brnad new super i have and see if I can make it happen again.


No personal experience, but I've been doing a lot of reading. 5 gallons might be ok for attracting "Africanized" bees, which purportedly are accepting of smaller nest sizes, but European bees generally want larger. 5 gallons is about 18.5 liters which is considered close to the bottom limit of an acceptable nest sized (15 liters is considered the bottom limit). There's actually a survivability issue. Swarms in the smaller nest boxes have a lower chance of survival than those in the 40 liter size containers (over the winter). In the tests that were done, 10 liter sized containers were never colonized. 40 liters seemed to be the preferred size, which much bigger (100 liter) also not being preferred.

You might want to check these out:
Haven't read this yet, but it's on my reading list:
http://www.amazon.com/Swarm-Traps-Bait-Hives-free/dp/1463739311
Fascinating book about how bee swarms choose their nest sites:
http://www.amazon.com/Honeybee-Democracy-Thomas-D-Seeley/dp/0691147213/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1458823758&sr=1-1&keywords=Democracy+of+bees
And this is some of Seeley's earlier work (and it's online and free!):
https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/handle/1813/2653/Bait%20Hives%20for%20Honey%20Bees.pdf;jsessionid=7B671DF1085629177FC00E5D752714C4?sequence=2


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

Tomas said:


> The most recent from my blog:
> 
> Most people don’t mind getting freebies—getting something for nothing. Beekeepers aren’t the exception. They always need to find ways to save a bit of money with their beekeeping.
> 
> Whether it is just a hobby or a full business, it can be expensive. Sometimes it’s like that bee vac, except it sucks up your money. So free bees are usually welcomed and one of the ways to get them is through the use of trap hives to catch swarms.


Loved the article. Trying this myself this spring. Just starting and even though everyone says: "Start with a package". Well I don't have the funds, so it's bait hives or nothing (likely nothing !)


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

I first started out in beekeeping when I went to Honduras as part of the Peace Corps. After meeting my wife and finishing my time as a PC volunteer, we decided to stay and try to make a go at life in Honduras. I wanted to go into beekeeping full time but money was an issue. So I started practicing what I was preaching—use top bar hives and catch swarms as a way to get started in beekeeping when you don’t have the funds available. Good luck crmauch.

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Tom


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

crmauch said:


> No personal experience, but I've been doing a lot of reading. 5 gallons might be ok for attracting "Africanized" bees, which purportedly are accepting of smaller nest sizes, but European bees generally want larger. 5 gallons is about 18.5 liters which is considered close to the bottom limit of an acceptable nest sized (15 liters is considered the bottom limit). There's actually a survivability issue. Swarms in the smaller nest boxes have a lower chance of survival than those in the 40 liter size containers (over the winter). In the tests that were done, 10 liter sized containers were never colonized. 40 liters seemed to be the preferred size, which much bigger (100 liter) also not being preferred.


Based on my experiences with Africanized bees, what you say does make sense. These bees aren’t that particular about where they set up shop. However, the ideal for the bees (40 liter) is not always the ideal for the beekeeper. I wouldn’t want to be dealing with trap hives that big. It would make using them that much more cumbersome and awkward. I need to get them up and down from a tree—my preferred place for hanging them.

I’ve used my same style of top bar bait traps in Wisconsin and have caught swarms. They will work up north. 

And whether you use a five-gallon bucket or something bigger in Texas, you always have the risk of maybe catching an Africanized swarm. That simply means first entering the trap hive on the side of caution (as in being suited up) and then requeening if necessary.

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Tom


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## southlake (Mar 22, 2016)

I do not take my safety lightly. I wear a full suit at all times. I discovered a swarm to say that apparently has been residing in a swarm trap I built a long time ago and just left In a tree for 3 or 4 years. I moved them and their comb to a hi box this afternoon. Let's hope they stay. If they do then I have to hives of bees and have no idea what I am doing. I would like to go t the local meetings at the new groups here. But, work hours prohibit me from going.


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

The forgetten swarm trap..... That's happened to me on occasion. Someone stops me in the street to ask when I'm going to take the swarm trap down and I've been thinking they have all been taken down a good while back. Always a nice surprise.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Tomas, you live in Eden.
Bill


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

Whiskers, if you're refering to the abundance of swarms that I can catch--yes. But no, wait...they're all Africanized! You take the good with the bad.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

No, I looked at your pictures, it's beautiful, "Vista de Apiary Lima" I don't think I've gotten that title quite right, but it is beautiful, mangos hanging off the trees... Even the bees feisty as they are, at least take care of the mites on their own. Is there any sign that those bees are getting any nicer? The gloves in one of those pictures say there is, at least, still a way to go. I know that genetically very similar bees in Puerto Rico are workable. I see that you make most everything you use, to the point where in one of the last pictures "hive stands" I was a little surprised to see milled lumber, rather than a tree trunk squared with a broad axe. The patterns for those veils should be in the make it yourself section here.

Bill


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

john beeman said:


> I may be close to my first swarm.....Bees have been going in and out now for 5 days. They seem to be cleaning the trap. Today I watched as the bees tried to remove the Q-tip with the LGO.....Not sure why they would want to do that.......


The telltale sign that scouts checked out the bait hive--q tip laying in front of hive. I put it back in if still no bees. I also question why do they take it out, esp if they didn't adopt the box.


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

Whiskers, in that sense, yes, it is almost like Eden. There are some very stunning views around here. I love the contrast between the mountains and the valley.

It is somewhat hit and miss about the feistiness of the bees. Some hives are relatively calm and others not so. One day the hives can be behave themselves, but the next day no. Now I would never enter the hives without veil and gloves—that is a must.

I do use good lumber on occasion. But I always try to be as economical about it as possible.


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## caribbeeman (Feb 17, 2016)

southlake said:


> Has anyone had success using a 5 gallon bucket as a swarm trap? I decided to experiment today. I put a 1x1/2 inch hole on one side screwed in a couple of wax coated pieces of wood inside. i sprinkled a little lemongrass inside and out. So we will see what happens. I have a felling there will be scouts but maybe not a swarm. If somone has had success with 5 gallon plastic buckets let know I would like to know how you did it.
> 
> The swarm i caught several days ago appear to be sticking around in the empty super i attracted them to. If the bucket idea does not work i will just pull out the brnad new super i have and see if I can make it happen again.


Will paint residue in the bucket harm the bees? I want to try buckets for swarm traps. I collected a few 5 gallon buckets from construction sites, but i cant get all the paint out of them.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

Tomas said:


> Based on my experiences with Africanized bees, what you say does make sense. These bees aren’t that particular about where they set up shop. However, the ideal for the bees (40 liter) is not always the ideal for the beekeeper. I wouldn’t want to be dealing with trap hives that big. It would make using them that much more cumbersome and awkward. I need to get them up and down from a tree—my preferred place for hanging them.


I certainly can sympathize with the part about getting them up and down a tree. I've heard two things about Texas (re: bees) and I don't know where the truth lies. 1) That all the bees in Texas are Africanized and that 2) There are both AHB and European bees in Texas. I think I was 'thinking' that a smaller swarm trap might increase your chance of getting an Africanized swarm. 



Tomas said:


> I’ve used my same style of top bar bait traps in Wisconsin and have caught swarms. They will work up north.


Tom, what are the dimensions of your swarm trap? I've seen some of your pictures, but I was wondering at the actual dimensions.

I'm trying 5 traps this year: 

All traps have (or will) beeswax strips inside and will have LGO (lemon grass oil). If I get swarms they will all have to be 'cut out'.

All 5 are new, 4 are definitely 'experimental'.
1) Got the idea from the internet: Two 'chipwood' baskets butted opening to opening (duct taped together) with an entrance hole drilled in the bottom of one of the baskets. To be suspended in tree with a rope:
Problems I foresee: The original suggestion was using a much larger and thicker walled(raffia?) basket. and I think that might have worked well (but what I looked at cost 11 
dollars and I would have had to build a lid for the top). The chipwood baskets together are only about 18 liters and the chipwood baskets are very thin and probably let in too 
much light. 
Cost: ~$3.50 per basket (so about $7))(I had the wax and the duct tape) and the LGO was $7.71 (but that cost is spread among all the traps.
2) Copy paper box. Dimensions are close to being right. Planning to paint the box w/ two coats of primer to give it some water resistance. Box is very thin and I added some reinforcement. 1 1/4" hole drilled in side near bottomToying w/ idea of coating box w/ bees wax to increase water resistance. Plan to suspend from a bamboo pole near a hedgerow at the back of my property.
Problems I foresee: Box isn't like the old 'Xerox' boxes. Built very thin, don't know if it will hold up to weather or if paint will give enough rain resistance. Since started this read 
that bees will not accept a cardboard nest.
Cost: Box free, time spent 'reinforcing' box and painting.
3) Cardboard box. Dimensions were near perfect. sealed top and bottom and converted a side to a "flap" door whose added edges extend down over the side. Plan to suspend from a bamboo pole near a hedgerow at the back of my sister's property (she has an orchard near her, so I might get lucky being on her land). 1 1/4" hole drilled in box.
Problems I foresee: box is substantial but don't know if it will hold up to weather or if paint will give enough rain resistance. Since started this read 
that bees will not accept a cardboard nest.
Cost: Box free, Quite a bit of time converting box and painting.
4) Plastic container (imagine a large upright rectangular garbage can with lid). Got this idea after seeing a Youtube video of a swarm coming to occupy a plastic container. I had stored wood chips in this container for years in my garage. drilled hole in lower side, put some wax comb guides on lid. Plan to drill some 1/8" holds near top and at bottom for ventilation and suspend from a rope in a tree at my fathers property.
Problems I foresee: Plastic container may overheat. Concerned that bees will not accept a plastic nest.
Cost: Sacrificing a perfectly good container.
5) In scrounging pallets for building my top bar hives, some of the pallets had wood thinner that I felt ideal for a hive, but I realized this wood in combined with some plywood I had, might make a decent bait hive. Plywood is 3/8" and I cut two ends (11X11) and A plywood 'lid' (12X22) The sides and bottom are from the pallet boards. Plan to paint 1 or two coats of paint and suspend from a rope in a tree.
Problems I foresee: None from a 'swarm box' container perspective. Pallet wood is somewhat irregular and sometimes needs fitted. Tendency for the wood to split.
Cost: Large amount of time pulling apart pallets, removing nails, cutting wood to size and building box. My carpentry and tool set is somewhat primitive (I do have power tools, but
they are all the hand held variety). 

Overall problem: Observing my apricot trees over that last week. Bumblebees, wild pollinators, my own Japanese hornfaced bees (a type of mason bee) in the trees. "Might" have seen one honeybee, and none later. So appears to be a definite dearth of feral honey bees in my area. Will continue observations as season progresses.




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Tom[/QUOTE]


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

Here’s a photo with the dimensions for my tbh swarm traps (and the permanent boxes). The width of the swarm traps is exactly ten bars.



Be careful using cardboard. I’ve used bait boxes with cardboard before but if the bees stay in them long enough, they start to chew it up. That could potentially cause you some problems.

Pallets can be a pain to take apart. They often use longer nails so the thin piece of board splits on you when you put some pressure on it as you try to get the nail to come up. If the idea is to use them for swarm traps, maybe you can just cut out the piece between the 2 x 4s, instead of pulling nails. It might save you some headaches.

Good luck with the swarms.

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Tom


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