# POSCA pens will cause supercedure.



## Knisely (Oct 26, 2013)

I haven't had queens superceded at any remarkable rate with my use of Tosca paint markers over the past 3 years. Dab only the bald spot on the thorax, of course.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

This was my first year to mark Queens. All of the Queens I marked are still in the hives. They were marked in Mar/April., even the ones that got marked _real good and are easy to find._ 

I bought the pen from MannLake.

Alex


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I have found that it is rough handling when catching and holding for clipping or marking that causes supersedure in new queens. The mark, or clipping of the wings, seem to have no effect if done without roughing up the queen.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

Agreed AR.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I'm pretty sure that's why I made such a mess out of a couple of them. I was too afraid of hurting them to hold them tight enough to keep them still.

I must have marked 200 Drones before attempting a Queen and still my hand was shaking so bad I had paint on my finger and thumb.

Alex


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I once bought a POSCA pen - never again. The tip was either bone dry, or the paint came flooding out - there was never a happy medium. Ended up in the bin. Maybe it was faulty ? But - they don't get a second chance.

I now use either cellulose vehicle touch-up paint - the sort that comes in a small tube with a brush, or nail varnish. In both cases I use a pointed barbecue skewer, touch the point onto the paint brush to get the smallest dab on the tip, and then 'draw' that paint in the smallest possible circle onto the thorax. Leave until dry before reintroducing the queen.

I don't mark them all - only those I need to keep track of.
LJ


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I have used Posca marking pens for five years and can't recall a supercedure that seemed connected to the use. In the case of the supercedures that I have had generally it seems to be when the Posca-marked queens are in their third seasoned, having been marked in their first season. So I doubt the Posca pen had anything to do it. 

I had one really old gal who was marked by my mentor (with a Posca pen) in July of 2014 just get superceded last month.

Nancy


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

little_john said:


> I once bought a POSCA pen - never again. The tip was either bone dry, or the paint came flooding out - there was never a happy medium. Ended up in the bin. Maybe it was faulty ? But - they don't get a second chance.


I would hope you would test them out on something before you started marking the queens. That way you are sure it is working properly. 

I have used these for the last 2 years with no issues at all. The only supercedures I have had were swarm queens I caught and marked. They superceded about 60 days later so I doubt it was the marker that caused it.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

dudelt said:


> I would hope you would test them out on something before you started marking the queens. That way you are sure it is working properly.


Of course I did .... Would anyone be daft enough to NOT test 'em out first ?

That pen never did work properly - so it never came anywhere near a queen. To be honest, I don't really see how they're supposed to work - they have some kind of fibre tip which, if you depress it - the paint then comes rushing out in a bl##dy great blob. But if you don't depress the tip, then there's no way for the paint to find it's way onto the fibre tip. The one I had was white, so I tried using it to mark dark-coloured plastic - exactly the same story: bone dry or a large paint blob. So it went straight in the bin - useless.

There must be countless thousands of these pens in use, and it appears everybody else seems happy enough with 'em - but I'll never buy another one - I need to use stuff which is predictable and which I can rely on.
LJ


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I pressed the tip of the pen onto the tops of the wooden hive stands to load the paint onto the tip, then I dobbed the tip on the stand a couple of times to get rid of the excess.

The thing I like about it is I am so clumsy if I had an open jar of testors paint I'm sure it would end up spilled.

Alex


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I want a blob to come out; onto the side of a hive tool or some handy surface and then I dip the end of a grass or hay stem into the blob and transfer and spread the small bit onto the queen. Usually I am marking through the grid of a queen catcher cylinder. No way should you use the felt tip directly - Too unpredictable.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I think I'll try that next year.

Thanks,
Alex


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I want the tip fairly well covered in paint. Then I dab off the excess and then lightly touch the queen with the pen to mark her. If you are pushing too hard, the tip retracts into the pen's body and more paint comes out. You only need to lightly touch the queen to get the paint on her. I do not use the tip, I go slightly to the side of the pen. 

However, you may have gotten a bad one too!


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

we marked hundreds with posca pens this year.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

did I mention we used this same pen in 2013 also to mark queens. They work great.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OK, that does it!
Will order POSCA and try it.

Hate yet another expense (being a cheapo), but hate not finding those darn queens even more.
Might as well be proper and color code them bugs.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

Buy the pack of 5 colors. They don't seem to dry out.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

dudelt said:


> However, you may have gotten a bad one too!


Since posting, I started to wonder "is it me ?", and so I 'did a Google' for "POSCA pens & flooding". Seems that what I've been beefing about is a fairly common complaint - not just with POSCA pens - but with all paint-pens which use this type of delivery system. i.e. the need to depress the tip in order to allow paint out onto it - and the finer the tip, the less able it is to 'soak-up' the amount of paint which emerges - hence the bigger the blob. Also there have been warnings about using these pens in the sun, where heat can cause a small build-up of pressure inside the pen, which then causes an even bigger blob.

So - it appears that they're great if you like working like this, with POSCA apparently being the best make of these type of pens - but this style of working is just not for me - I'm 'old school' and much prefer my paint in containers from where I can access it 'a little at a time' in a far more predictable way. 
LJ


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My biggest problem with the POSCA pens is that the bees remove the paint...


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

GregV said:


> OK, that does it!
> Will order POSCA and try it.
> 
> Hate yet another expense (being a cheapo), but hate not finding those darn queens even more.
> Might as well be proper and color code them bugs.


just don't depress the tip. When this happens it can flood out but I have never had a reason to do it since the tip is always ready to go. There is no way you can depress the tip on a queen without damaging her anyway. Practice on a few drone first it is really quick once you do it a few times. 

If you throw the queen right back in they will remove some of the paint. stick her in a cage for a few minutes and let it set up good.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> just don't depress the tip. When this happens it can flood out but I have never had a reason to do it since the tip is always ready to go. There is no way you can depress the tip on a queen without damaging her anyway. Practice on a few drone first it is really quick once you do it a few times.
> 
> If you throw the queen right back in they will remove some of the paint. stick her in a cage for a few minutes and let it set up good.


Got it!
Thanks TB.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

texanbelchers said:


> Buy the pack of 5 colors. They don't seem to dry out.


After a long deliberation (wasted 30 minutes of my valuable sleep time) - I only ordered a single red.
It comes with that nifty push-in cage thingy - I mean to use it.
I figure I will give it a try and if hate it, the loss will be minimized.
If I love it, the next year I will order the pack of 5.

OK, this weekend will be fun! (or not).
Never marked the queens in my life.
This will be the first, if I find the darn things - bee yard I will be doing it comes from somewhat defensive line and they don't really care for me.

PS: located the queen in one of my 2018 caught swarms - turns out she has red paint splatted all over her body, even the wings (someone really botched the paint job ......hahaha).


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## fatshark (Jun 17, 2009)

little_john said:


> Since posting, I started to wonder "is it me ?", and so I 'did a Google' for "POSCA pens & flooding". Seems that what I've been beefing about is a fairly common complaint - not just with POSCA pens - but with all paint-pens which use this type of delivery system. [snip]


In fairness LJ that's a slightly loaded query! 

POSCA pens and flooding = ~62,000 pages returned
POSCA pens and success = ~145,000 pages returned

I've used these for years with no significant 'blobbing' and no supercedure. Most of my hive roofs have little blue or white dots on them where I've checked the pen is delivering the paint properly before marking. Being colourblind (red/green) I only need buy two colours  The blue one has recently packed up after about 5 years use.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

GregV said:


> After a long deliberation (wasted 30 minutes of my valuable sleep time) - I only ordered a single red.
> It comes with that nifty push-in cage thingy - I mean to use it.
> I figure I will give it a try and if hate it, the loss will be minimized.
> If I love it, the next year I will order the pack of 5.
> ...


Sounds like one of my first marked Queens caught a pretty good tail wind to make it that far North.

Alex


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

fatshark said:


> In fairness LJ that's a slightly loaded query!


I just entered the terms for what I was looking for - this wasn't some kind of balanced scientific analysis, just looking for confirmation (or not) of whether I had a duff pen. I wasn't aiming to prove or disprove anything. I then saw that others (especially many Amazon customers) had voiced the same criticism as myself, which I found reassuring. It appears that the paint-pen mechanism suits some folks - many folks - but not everyone, that's all I'm saying. I much prefer paint I can dip into - like coloured nail varnish. Here's an example:



A poor photo, but not a lot wrong with that marking. I've received queens in the mail from so-called professionals with paint daubed all over their wings. Dunno what paint those guys used. Dulux ?
'best,
LJ


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

little_john said:


> Of course I did .... Would anyone be daft enough to NOT test 'em out first ?
> 
> That pen never did work properly -
> 
> ...


Never had one work for me ether, and I tried more than one.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Mw_HqUVfk 
posca pen in use 5 years old. sorry the quality isn't the best


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

fatshark said:


> ..........*I only need buy two colours*  The blue one has recently packed up after about 5 years use.


Thinking about this one.
It is entirely valid to use a binary approach for own use.
This way keep track of "this year" marks and the "last year" marks. 
I like this "white and blue" way; it should cover most cases and still help in Q finding.


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## HONEYGUY1973 (Jan 31, 2018)

Try the oil based sharpies they work better than posca and are much brighter! Seem to stay on queeens and last.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OK. 
Gave the red POSCA try today.
Fingers crossed for not losing any shiny new queens to the paint.
And this gizmo really works. 
Like.


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## BeeHiveGuy (Apr 16, 2013)

Just piling on. I tried multiple pens and POSCA is hands-down the best. I used multiple colors (therefore multiple pens) and did NOT see any signs of supercedure. I charge my pen (push the tip in to load some fresh paint) on the side of a box or on the stand. Then I make a few marks to get rid of excess paint before 'dotting' the queen (WITHOUT depressing the tip). They work like a charm. I don't have much trouble with the bees cleaning off the paint if I hold onto the queen for a few minutes to get some initial drying. I may have seen 1 or 2 this year where half the paint was gone, otherwise no problem. I don't use the standard marking colors because NOBODY keeps a queen 5 years. I use colors that indicate where the genetics might have come from (Blue was Nucs from TX, White was queens from California, Yellow was Nucs from Kansas City, etc... and Orange for what I call 'bastard queens' that are of an unknown origin). I make sure that I get the light blue versus blue marker because it stands out better. Get the 3mm pen, not the 5mm or 1mm (the 5mm will work, if you wind up with one). There is a -3 or -03 (can't remember) in the part number. I got lucky and found a larger set (like 12 or 15) where there were enough usable colors to make it cheaper to buy the pack and not use all the markers. When I mark a queen, I write the date in the same color on my lid. If I mark a queen in white, I use black to mark the hive (white markers on white hives doesn't work well and black markers on queens doesn't work well). I keep the markers with darker colors that I don't think work. I keep them in my bee bag and use them to write notes on the hives or my bricks.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

As this thread has just been revived ... an update: 

during the last week I've been going around the apiary with my pot of blue nail-varnish, marking non-breeding queens (resident with their own bees) - queens which wouldn't normally get marked. Each one was checked 24 hrs later, with zero problems. Will be marking the last batch of new queens (in mating nucs stocked with mixed bees) in the same way - in a week or so. That's assuming they've been mated of course, which is beginning to look a little doubtful right now, as the weather has seriously deteriorated. 
LJ


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