# Best propane fogger for Tactic



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Fogging tactic?? Really??


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> Fogging tactic?? Really??


We know 3 different commercial beekeepers who are doing this. Information about what you think would be much more helpful than sarcasm.

Thanks


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I don't see sarcasm... I see :no:
maby you should talk to the 3 you "know"... 
there was chatter about FGMO mixed with Tactic for fogging 10 years ago...it was :no: then


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

The three guys I know have been doing it for mite treatments. As I understand it, it is the same chemical in the apivar strips. If I didn't need advice I wouldn't be asking here. I am the equipment fix it guy for a beekeeper, and I wasn't doing bees 10 years ago. 

I am looking for advice. If we are doing something bad, I would like to know the reasoning behind it so I can make an informed change.

Thanks,


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Maybe because it's not an federally approved delivery method for treating mites in the USA...

If you were outside the USA then i couldn't say but at least you wouldnt fall under the U.S.' tentacles.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If it's not on the Tactic label - it is illegal.

Crazy Roland


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

Not only is it not legal, I couldn't imagine anyone crazy enough to try it. Below is from Randy Oliver's website.

I’ve looked at a number of incidents of amitraz poisoning in humans (typically by either accidental or intentional ingestion of liquid formulations). The agricultural formulations of amitraz are dangerous poisons that beekeepers, should they choose to illegally apply them, would be wise to be very cautious with. Of late I’ve heard of beekeepers fogging amitraz; a California beekeeper who nearly killed himself while doing so is emphatic that this is a very dangerous practice!


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Amitraz inhalation of as little as .3 grams can lead to repiratory arrest. This is not OA where you can get a little sick from inhalation, this can kill you. Sounds like there are a few beeks that are jostling with each other to be first in line for a Darwin Award.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I hope they have not had children yet.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Crabo said:


> Anyone having good success with fogging Tactic with a propane fogger? How are you keeping it from clogging up? What respirator should you wear?
> 
> Thanks


I hope you are hearing the feedback loud and clear


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Crabo said:


> We know 3 different commercial beekeepers who are doing this. Information about what you think would be much more helpful than sarcasm.
> 
> Thanks


I can't speak for Michael Palmer, but if I had written what he wrote it would have been from being astounded, not sarcasm. I would think that not only are you bringing up something potentially dangerous but actually an illegal use of a pesticide not labeled for use against Varroa mites.

If you know three different commercial beekeeping operations that do this, what are they telling you?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I am attaching an image of the abstract, rather than just linking a page.
Note the -- dangerous dose is 15 ml -- that 3 teaspoons. 

Other medical reports show as little as 5 ml of 12% diluted Amitraz can induce a coma in an adult woman who was poisoned intravenously.
https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+6939

Mixing amitraz with alcohol in a fogger is an dangerously stupid stunt.


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

If it doesn't kill anyone or the bees, it will probably escalate mite resistance to Amitraz - so these three are essentially stealing a treatment from the law abiding beekeepers. You should tell them to cease or they will be talking to the EPA.


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

What would be the best broodless treatment for mites at this time of year?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

One method for you to consider in a broodless period is the oxalic acid "dribble" method. Randy Oliver has a number of pages about the dribble method. Here is one of the more recent pages:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-dribble-tips/


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Depends what the mites on your bees are resistant to. Oxalic acid vapor may be best cos there is little or no mite resistance to it, plus sounds like you have a bent for vaporising things.

The 3 commercials that are doing this, you sure you have your facts right? If they are, apart to the risk to their own health, I would consider it very bad beekeeping practise from long term effectiveness of amitraz perspective.

I do know that in some European countries, at a hobbyist level, they vaporise amitraz plus 2 other poisons all mixed together into their hives all at the same time. They do it with a little dish over a candle. Asking for problems long term.


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> plus sounds like you have a bent for vaporising things.


No bent for vaporizing things. Just trying to learn. This method was suggested to us.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

JWChesnut said:


> View attachment 36747
> 
> 
> I am attaching an image of the abstract, rather than just linking a page.
> ...


Compared to the person mainlining amitraz, the fogger application does not seem so stupid. 

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Crabo said:


> Anyone having good success with fogging Tactic with a propane fogger? How are you keeping it from clogging up? What respirator should you wear?
> 
> Thanks


Kinda jumped all over you here.
Probably a good idea you asked about this. Might of gotten you in a load of trouble.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

RudyT said:


> If it doesn't kill anyone or the bees, it will probably escalate mite resistance to Amitraz - so these three are essentially stealing a treatment from the law abiding beekeepers. You should tell them to cease or they will be talking to the EPA.


One of the more memorable beekeepers around here was treating his bees with strips of blue shop towel soaked in amitraz. He told me he's known a veterinarian for 40 years and he gets a few of his treatments from this person. I remember thinking, wow, this guy is just grabbing pieces of shop towel off with a cotton glove which has probably as much amitraz soaked into it as that puck of shop towels. Who cares about what it does to varroa, I would bet that that guy doesnt have any mites, ticks, fleas, or lice and never will.

As to the OP, if youre hell bent on doing something crazy, and it really sounds like something you definitely shouldnt do, any fogger will more than likely work. If it clogs, refer to the literature that comes with your unit as it tells you how to unclog the coil. Respirator cartridges... do some homework. At the end of the day though, it sounds like a very bad idea and plan B should be invoked.

As far as "law abiding beekeepers" ... LOL Read any thread on OA going back as far as you want, lots and lots and lots of people using that stuff off label to vaporize their bees but you know its that pot/kettle argument. But I am glad one of us here has the EPA on speed dial lol The federal penitentiaries are about to get overwhelmed with beekeepers


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

Guys, listen to me, I am not hell bent on using the fogger. It was suggested to us as a quick efficient way to do it.

I am smart enough to listen to the collective wisdom here and we are going with the OA dribble method.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Good choice Crabo, good choice :gh:

edit: Look into a ProVap 110 it's less than $500 but it's easy to use if you have a little generator or an inverter and extension chord in your vehicle. You don't have to crack hives to use it.

https://www.mannlakeltd.com/varrox-deluxe-oxalic-acid-vaporizer


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## kramerbryan (Oct 30, 2013)

Pro vap rocks. Buy from SNL though at oxavap.com


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Look into the VM vaporizer(lots of info on this forum). Pricey, but nothing else is as fast. I have treated thousands of hives with mine. Well -ok- my 20 hives hundreds of times.


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## Gumpy (Mar 30, 2016)

sqkcrk said:


> I can't speak for Michael Palmer, but if I had written what he wrote it would have been from being astounded, not sarcasm.


I can't speak for the OP, but if Michael Palmer reacted like that to one of my posts, I'd be very concerned about why, rather than accuse him of being sarcastic.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

I heard of a russian guy who poisoned himself while fogging taktic. He lived a short while after and passed away.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

RAK said:


> I heard of a russian guy who poisoned himself while fogging taktic. He lived a short while after and passed away.


.. meanwhile in Russia.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

hex0rz said:


> .. meanwhile in Russia.


More likely California


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Here's my two cents.... Taktic itself isn't labelled for bees, then on top of that you're askiing about a very un-approved method of application so it's even a double whammy....


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

the fogged tactic helps the bees digest chicken blood! it's the "circle of life."


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

A good read: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/amitraz-red-flags-or-red-herrings/


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

justin said:


> the fogged tactic helps the bees digest chicken blood! it's the "circle of life."


Now thats funny!Thanks for the morning laugh.


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

MTN-Bees said:


> A good read: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/amitraz-red-flags-or-red-herrings/


There is a lot of info here. It bears out the decision we made not to use the tatic.

Thanks for the info.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

What do you use Crabo?


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## GoodyFarms (Jul 10, 2016)

JWChesnut said:


> View attachment 36747
> 
> 
> I am attaching an image of the abstract, rather than just linking a page.
> ...


In the grand scheme of things, an oral dose of 5mL is actually quite a large dose when it comes to toxicity. There's a lot of commonly used chemicals and pharmaceuticals that are far more toxic. 

5g of oxalic acid has a chance of killing you (LD50 of 375mg/kg). 12g of pure aspirin has a 50% chance of killing an adult. 

5g of formic acid probably won't kill you (LD50 dog 4g/kg) but you'll have a really bad day. Same goes for 5mL of household bleach (LD50 rat 4g/kg).



Vapor inhalation is a whole different story.


While I don't profess to know a lot of commercial keepers, from what I've heard off label use of taktic is still rather common.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Know some commercial beekeepers here in Germany that fog amitraz, too. One of them died from cancer recently. Coincidence only, of course.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Now there is a coincidence for you, I have known a number of people who have died from cancer and none of them even kept bees so I wonder where they got their amitraz from. Very hard to nail down cause and effect.
Johno


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Now having said that I would make it known that I do not have a problem with amitraz, but I would rather use it with glycerin and shop towels than with a fogger.
Johno


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Not that it matters, but fogging sounds more like a good full face respirator issue, and good PPE. Everything causes cancer. Everything will kill you in vapor form inhaled. I guess if you fogging that would mean you're in a hurry, the blue shop towel is fine, construction paper you name it. Everyone in NC now has to have a respirator just to apply paraquat. Don't matter droplet size or the nice over pressure climate controlled cab with charcoal filters I run, etc. Tactik isn't dead just go down to Georgia and Florida you'll find shipping containers of that stuff.

A caveat I would make is that NCDA will threaten to fine now for residue, or so a neighbor told me after his got airplane'd to death and the residue test had alot more amitraz than insecticide. Not sure how they knew it wasn't legit amitraz, must have found some shop towels. 

Protect that bottom line.


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## johnny2 (Feb 6, 2017)

amazon has a fogger for bees that comes from nz I believe (Varomorus Propane Insect Fogger for Fast and Effective Varroa mites Control) and in the instructions it has the option for tactic mixed with kerosene. I myself would not and will not do that in my operation but apparently it is ok somewhere. this does appear to be a nice unit and looks like it will be fast. time will tell. link... https://www.amazon.com/Varomorus-Pr...0&sr=8-8&keywords=mite+fogger#customerReviews


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

It also says it can be used for OA. And the solvent, 96% ethanol. Does look like it has a much better metering pump than my $49.00 Burgess fogger.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't think it's from NZ, when I looked it up it said _Does Not Ship To New Zealand_


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

What about the burgess1443 propane fogger ? It may be labeled as a black flag product.. ? Will this do o.a. well?


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## johnny2 (Feb 6, 2017)

I got mine last night and have only put water in it an it didnt do the best, it spit a little, but thats water and the pump does seem to be a pretty accurate shot. it says 3 to 5 pumps for ox acid and ethanol. I could try to scan in the instructions and post on here if there is interest. I think the heated coils cool off too fast and could use a shield around the outside to direct the flame better but that was water too so it needs to have the real deal run in it. I will play with it and see if I can improve on this already good (in my opinion) design.


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## johnny2 (Feb 6, 2017)

sorry to mislead E bay also has them and there is a u.s. propane and ?? butane? type https://www.ebay.com/itm/VAROMOR-Sm...t-and-prevention-Bees-of-Varroa-/142493778829


Item location:
Europe / Slobozhanshchyna, Ukraine

Ships to:
Worldwide See exclusions


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Crabo said:


> We know 3 different commercial beekeepers who are doing this. Information about what you think would be much more helpful than sarcasm.
> 
> Thanks


This is what I have used in the past for fogging with thymol. Works like a champ. Makes a LOT of fog. It has 12 heat coils vs. 4 on the Burgess fogger.

https://www.domyown.com/vectorfog-by100-mini-thermal-fogger-p-13149.html 

Mind you this fogger requires Butane fule cannisters, NOT propane. The butane cannisters can be purchased at most big box stores. 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sterno-5...5035&wl11=online&wl12=773822967&wl13=&veh=sem


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## ABruce (Dec 27, 2013)

johnny2 said:


> I got mine last night and have only put water in it an it didnt do the best, it spit a little, but thats water and the pump does seem to be a pretty accurate shot. it says 3 to 5 pumps for ox acid and ethanol. I could try to scan in the instructions and post on here if there is interest. I think the heated coils cool off too fast and could use a shield around the outside to direct the flame better but that was water too so it needs to have the real deal run in it. I will play with it and see if I can improve on this already good (in my opinion) design.


Hi, 
Your post was from Last February. Did you try it out , What are your thoughts on it?
thanks


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## johnny2 (Feb 6, 2017)

I did give it the old college try, I was not too impressed what I found was you had to cool the unit down to get proper fog between hives. I run 4 hives on a shipping pallet, you could hit the two you are facing with no issues but then go to the back of the pallet and it was overheated and there would be no fog it would come out clear vapor. 3 to 4 pumps slowly and the fog would start again then I would go with my dosage. I could not use it on a 1 lb propane tank with my pallets being so close to the ground so I had it hooked to a 20 lb tank (cheaper anyway). so when I had tested with water I thought it cooled too fast between shots and it still can with the oa ,ethanol if you put it in too fast. It has a definite learning curve and for 50 hives I would fight with it but not for the amount of hives I am running. If it had a thermostat to regulate the flame it would be a more usable unit. It also said in the instructions you could use tac tic in it (not legal in the u.s.a.) but I would want a full class 3 hazmat suit with oxygen to do that crap.


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## ABruce (Dec 27, 2013)

johnny2 said:


> I did give it the old college try, I was not too impressed what I found was you had to cool the unit down to get proper fog between hives. I run 4 hives on a shipping pallet, you could hit the two you are facing with no issues but then go to the back of the pallet and it was overheated and there would be no fog it would come out clear vapor. 3 to 4 pumps slowly and the fog would start again then I would go with my dosage. I could not use it on a 1 lb propane tank with my pallets being so close to the ground so I had it hooked to a 20 lb tank (cheaper anyway). so when I had tested with water I thought it cooled too fast between shots and it still can with the oa ,ethanol if you put it in too fast. It has a definite learning curve and for 50 hives I would fight with it but not for the amount of hives I am running. If it had a thermostat to regulate the flame it would be a more usable unit. It also said in the instructions you could use tac tic in it (not legal in the u.s.a.) but I would want a full class 3 hazmat suit with oxygen to do that crap.


Thank you for the update, its very helpful.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Guys I do not know why you waste your time with this fogger thing, been there and done that. What ever you use for mite control the story ends up on your sticky board by the next morning and I have never had a good mite drop with a fogger, sure after weekly fogging and mite checks I could prevent an increase in mite growth. that is starting with mineral oil and aditives such as wintergreen and thymol and then going onto glycerin and OA. Also went the 50% formic acid pad route and eventually have settled on OAV using 2 pans but what a pain in the rear that was, but since the arrival of band heater vaporizers life is a breeze for beekeepers and short lived for mites. You can go through your yards at around 1 minute a hive if you get really organised and have lots of hives you could probably even do better than that and the cost is small. You can make one yourself and if you are unable to do that you could purchase one for much the same price as a decent wand.
Johno


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