# how much water from nectar to honey????



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

guatebee,

take 1000 cc's of nectar
I'm using your numbers, I don't know
that's 800 cc's of water and 200 cc's of good stuff
to turn it into honey you want

x number of cc's honey = 200 cc's of good stuff + (18.5% of honey cc's honey) of water

or x = 200 + (0.185 * x)
so x - 200 = 0.185 * x
1 - (200/x) = 0.185
1 - 0.185 = 200 / x
0.815 = 200 / x
0.815 * x = 200
x = 200 /0.815
x = 245 cc's of honey

so x = 245 cc's
you gotta evaporate 1000 cc's of honey down to 245 cc's to make into properly cured honey, or you gotta evaporate 755 cc's of water
yea, you need good ventilation

now somebody will shootdown my math









Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I used to do this kind of stuff all the time in Organic Chem class and Physics. Off the top of my head this time of night, I'm not at my best for this kind of stuff.









Dave's numbers seem right off the top of my head.

But then is honey 18.5% moisture by weight or volume?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

doh!! 

hey, I thought it didn't make any difference
remember the sugar water wars?









Dave


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## guatebee (Nov 15, 2004)

"you gotta evaporate 1000 cc's of honey down to 245 cc's to make into properly cured honey, or you gotta evaporate 755 cc's of water"

I think it should read: "you gotta evaporate 1000 cc's of NECTAR down to 245 cc's to make into properly cured honey"

Thanks so much for the input. Translating this into simpler terms, I would comclude that roughly speaking, numbers look like this:

100% nectar = 25% honey + 75% excess water

In practical terms:
* bees bring in 100 lbs of nectar, obtain 25 lb of honey (2 gal), thereby evaporating 75 lb of water (9.3 gal)

* Or, bees bring in 250 lb of nectar, obtain 62.5 lb of honey (5.2 gal), thereby evaporating 187.5 lb of water (23.4 gal)

* OR, bees bring in 500 lbs of nectar to obtain 125 lb of honey (10.4 gal), thereby evaporating 375 lb of water (46.8 gal !!!!!!!)


From the figures above, the apparent ratio of evaporated water : honey is

Honey obtained Excess water Ratio
2 gal 9.3 gal 4.65
5.2 gal 23.4 gal 4.5
10.4 gal 46.8 gal 4.5

In other words, for every lb of honey produced, 4.5 lb of water were evaporated inside the hive.

If this is true or even close to being true, then honey making is a mind blowing process, much more than I ever realized.

I hope somone else pitches in with more factual info.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

>100% nectar = 25% honey + 75% excess water

that's a good way to put it
I find it easy to visualize stuff when it's expressed in terms of percentages

Dave


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## abeille (Jun 12, 2003)

Those number also underline the importance of providing sufficient space for the bees to store all this watery nectar. If you just place your honey supers one at a time, the colony won't be as productive overall as if you place several honey supers days BEFORE the honey flow, so the bees will have sufficient space to store a lot of nectar, and evaporate it. Figure that a honey super full of watery nectar will contain only few frames of honey once it is "cured".


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

>>>>I hope somone else pitches in with more factual info<<<<

Are you asking for more info that is factual, or info that is more factual???


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## carbide (Nov 21, 2004)

> What I am after is a technical means to obtain honey with 17% or less moisture in it.


Drobbins,

I agree with your method, however he was looking for honey with 17% or less moisture in it. Therefore:

Using a quantity of 100 gals;

x - 20 = 0.17 * x
1 - (20/x) = 0.17
1 - 0.17 = 20 / x
0.73 = 20 / x
0.73 * x = 20
x = 20 /0.73
x = 27.4

Therefore, you have to evaporate 100 gals of nectar in order to get 27.4 gals of honey at 17% moisture.

If the bees take in 100 gals of nectar, they wiil evaporate 72.6 gals of water to produce 27.4 gals of honey.

Excess water ratio actually works out to be:
72.6 / 27.4 = 2.65

For every gallon of honey produced at 17% moisture from 80% nectar, 2.65 gallons of water must be evaporated. In other words, you need almost three supers full of nectar to end up with one super full of honey.

[ April 26, 2006, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: carbide ]


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

gee, you're right
I messed up the subtraction  
1 - 0.185 does not equal 0.815
see, I told you somebody would shootdown my math









Dave


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## guatebee (Nov 15, 2004)

Carbide states: 
"If the bees take in 100 gals of nectar, they wiil evaporate 72.6 gals of water to produce 27.4 gals of honey."

This means that for 27.4 gal honey, bees need to collect 100 gal nectar. That´s a ratio of 3.65, meaning that for every super full of ripe honey, bees needed 3.65 supers full of nectar.

This is not counting the nectar consumed by the bees along the process!! 

Rounding things up, a rough estimate would be a ratio of 1:4 (1 lb honey:4 lb nectar)

In other words: 
4 lb nectar at 80% -3 lbs excess water =1lb honey.

Am I on the right track? This is somewhat different from what I first concluded, but I feel better about it.

Thanks so much for the input. 


Idee asks:
"Are you asking for more info that is factual, or info that is more factual???"

BOTH.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

carbide, BTW, 1 - 0.17 does not equal 0.73  
guatebee, we're all subtractionally challenged but this is all in the right ballpark









Dave

[ April 26, 2006, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

hey, I changed my mind, 1 - 0.185 does equal 0.815
I thought I was wrong but I was mistaken








carbide, where are you???

Dave

[ April 26, 2006, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## humptulips (Apr 24, 2006)

I won't get into the numbers but wouldn't the sugar content of the nectar vary according to the bloom and also the weather? The sweeter the nectar the less water would be evaporated and the inverse would also apply. Could make this an impossible question to answer.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>....wouldn't the sugar content of the nectar vary according to....

http://www.bb.iastate.edu/necgex/Nectar.htm


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

humptulips

>wouldn't the sugar content of the nectar vary
sure it would, but guatebee's just looking for a ballpark answer to justify his argument that you need good ventilation

Dave


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

My hive tool is red.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

"If the bees take in 100 gals of nectar, they wiil evaporate 72.6 gals of water to produce 27.4 gals of honey."

That would be roughly 329 pounds of honey. Not a bad yield... from about 11 of my hives









>My hive tool is red.

Precisely.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

From the URL listed earier:

"If phloem makes up most of the vascular tissue, the nectar may contain up to 50 percent sugar. On the other hand, if xylem predominates, the sugar content may fall to as little as 8 percent"



> Could make this an impossible question to answer.


that is also my thought.


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## briancady413 (Dec 8, 2003)

Guatabee, you want to go from +18.5% to 17% water content in honey, right?
1. Can you help the bees dry the honey?
Are you using SBB - Screened Bottom Boards?
Is there a way to have a 'screened top board', with a louvered box above to keep out rain while allowing a lot of evaporation and air flow?
Do top entrances help?
2. Can you dry the honey after harvest?
Can you suspend uncapped frames of honey between dessicants for a while in an unused 'fridge? Gypsum wallboard can be used as a nicely-packaged dessicant that will dry in an oven or perhaps solar drier.


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## humptulips (Apr 24, 2006)

By my calculations the ballpark could vary by as much as 37% depending on the honey source and that does not even take in to consideration what effect the weather may have.


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## guatebee (Nov 15, 2004)

Thanks tou you all!!! My conference this morning on hive ventilation was a real success.
The presentation I gave on Power point was a real eye opener for beekeepers; especially when it pointed out that some 3 lb of excess water must be evaporated from 4 lb nectar in order to obtain 1 lb of ripe honey.

The point is, beekeepers take bees´work for granted. Ventilation is such a valuable tool in aiding them achieve ripe honey faster and easier.

Briancady413 on the post above asks about top ventilating boards. Well, precisely, the use of SBB + a top ventilated inner cover is what do the trick. My inner covers are actually modified into feeding trays, with 2" high rims and a 4" long vent covered with mesh. The bottom of the tray is divided through the middle by a 2" wide opening, through which moisture ladden hot air rises.

I will post some pictures later, as soon as I recall how to use photobucket.


Dick Allen, thanks for the post on nectar composition. I had wanted to find that info long ago.

Again, thanks so much.


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## guatebee (Nov 15, 2004)

Here are some photos of my top feeder/vented tray.
I guess most know what anb SBB looks like.

http://photobucket.com/albums/a389/guatebee/


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

quatebee, here is something posted a month ago about the energy bees use for evaporating water from sugar syrup. It might also be of interest to you. 

http://www.beehive.org.nz/newsletters/1997/bnl-1997-12.htm

(You will have to scroll or page down about 5 pages until you come to the article titled: The Inside Story of Feeding Sugar to Bees)


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## carbide (Nov 21, 2004)

drobbins,

You were mistaken about being wrong, whereas I was wrong about being right, and to think I make a living as a design engineer. (Let's not have any comments about the rightness or wrongness about my designs, most things that we design don't go into nuclear facilites).















Besides I was just following your example and should have done my own brainstorming instead (believe me when I use my brain it normally stirs up a storm).

guatebee,

I love your photos. They are well taken and well composed. Thank you for sharing.


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