# How do you get bees to finish capping honey?



## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

There's a good chance that capped and some/many of the uncapped frames can be harvested. Only way to be sure is to borrow/buy a refactometer and test. I suspect my air humidity is lower than yours, however, when frames are 1/4 capped, honey tests less than 17%.

Personally, before I purchased a refactometer, I got caught waiting for the bees to cap the honey in order to feel safe harvesting. Ended up leaving three deeps on the hives and honey crystalized over the winter. And now, a year and a half later I am still putting crystalized frames above the inner cover. I uncap the honey, mist, and bees are slowly cleaning the frames. Gives them something to do on a rainy day. lol

So do't get caught waiting for capped honey to signal it's okay to extract.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Feed them???? You are going to feed them so they will cap what, honey or sugar? How about waiting until they do it.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Bees only store one variety of honey in a cell. If they are on a flow and have a lot of cells of it but run out before the cells are full, they may not cap them ever. If the frames are 80% capped and if the uncapped frames will not drip when you turn it upside down and drop and stop shake it, the honey will keep and you can go ahead and extract. Then put those wet supers right back on the hives and if there is a flow, you will be amazed how fast they will sometimes refill them.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Vance G said:


> Bees only store one variety of honey in a cell.


How do you know that? When I put a wet frame back and it is not the right variety they would never fill it again? Or do they move it? Where? Do they test it in their lab? Will they not mix sugar syrup? How do you know all this?


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Feed them???? You are going to feed them so they will cap what, honey or sugar? How about waiting until they do it.


Not feeding sugar syrup. Crystalized honey is still honey. If they are consuming it, fine. If they are liquifying it and moving it down, fine. They are cleaning out the comb!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

mgolden said:


> They are cleaning out the comb!


This seems pointless to me during a flow. I am surprised they would even pay attention to the frames during a flow. Wouldn't it be easier to just throw the frames on a hive in the fall that needed more honey to winter on?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't make my bees do anything. If your honey is not fully capped by now it ain't never gonna get capped. And it probably doesn't need to be. Take a sample and check the moisture content. If 18.5 or less spin it out. If more leave it on the hives.


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## Millenia (Apr 8, 2014)

Oh, great. Here I've been waiting on my honey frames to be completely capped before pulling any and now you say they probably won't be.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

You need a refractometer. Open honey cells can be dry as a bone. Capped cells can contain honey with a too high water content. In mass nectar flows they cap the cells too quickly. So capped cells usually is a good hint for dry honey, but usually the open cells have less than 17 % water when sitting on the hives for a long time. Just measure it.

Beside that I find an heavily insulated lid a good way to get dry honey. Also I leave the supers untouched. So the boxes are literally glued together with propolis, which preserves the warmth inside the honey supers. Keep strong hives.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Acebird said:


> This seems pointless to me during a flow. I am surprised they would even pay attention to the frames during a flow. Wouldn't it be easier to just throw the frames on a hive in the fall that needed more honey to winter on?


Not advisable to only have crystalized honey for winter. Without a supply of moisture, bees can starve to death. Research threads on leaving canola honey as winter stores. It crystalizes quite fast.

I have a surplus of frames with crystalized honey.

Nurse bees work the crystalized frames during a flow.

Back to the thread topic, I was just sharing my experience and problems you get yourself into waiting for the bees to cap before extracting. The mostly uncapped honey in my third deep was likely dry but and should have been extracted. There's a good chance that the OP's uncapped honey is dry enough to extract and safely store long term. However, without a refractometer it makes it difficult.


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

Based on what you all have said, I am likely ok to extract but won't be sure unless I get a refractometer. 

Also we are still in the midst of a flow (albeit a weaker one) so why wouldn't they continue to cap? 

Also if they would take sugar syrup, wouldn't they store and cap it? (not that I want that instead of clover/sourwood honey)


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## Belewsboy (Jun 6, 2012)

Hate to disagree with you Beek 79, but there's no flow going on here...its been gone for a while. There's Sumac and Clover around and a little Sourwood (which never amounts to anything ) but with days in the 90's and spotty rain there is very little coming in.


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

I would remove capped frames and then crowd them to encourage them to finish capping. Crowding is also a way to get them to cap the corners.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If the honey does not come out when you do a fast stop drop shake, it is cured enough especially if you are extracting other capped honey. Another way to think about it is go to the supermarket and turn the different brands upside down and time the bubble reaching the top. That will tell you what 18% moisture looks like as they are going to sell all the water they can. See how yours compares.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i try to bring in only capped honey, but invariably there are small portions of some frames that are in the process of being capped but not quite closed.

i start with the shake out test, i.e. turn the frame horizontally and give in a good shake, if what is in the open cells is so watery that i shakes out i put it back.

then when i bring it in, even if it is all capped, i allow it to 'dry' in my garage which is air conditioned and has relatively lower humidity. while in the garage, the supers are place on a floor fan turned horizontally and i move air across the supers for 48 hours. i also place a small space heater so that warm air is sucked up by the fan and with a thermometer adjust the heater so that the air coming out of the top of the supers stays at about 90 degrees.

i've thought about purchasing a small dehumidifier, but this is working consistently enough so i haven't.

i use a digital refractometer, and test each batch after extracting. the water content using comes in between 16.5 and 17.5%.

the slightly more concentrated honey is a little thicker and i think the taste is intensified a little as well, although that could be due to it staying on the palate a little longer. at any rate, the customers love it.


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

Belewsboy said:


> Hate to disagree with you Beek 79, but there's no flow going on here...its been gone for a while. There's Sumac and Clover around and a little Sourwood (which never amounts to anything ) but with days in the 90's and spotty rain there is very little coming in.


So even with those sources, it's not a flow? There has to be some coming in...just not enough to add to stores?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you have a water faucet whose tap is open and another whose tap is closed is there flow from both? Flow in beekeeping is when nectar is coming in.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> i've thought about purchasing a small dehumidifier, but this is working consistently enough so i haven't.


If your garage is air conditioned then you have a dehumidifier. The difference being that the garage is also cooled. The biggest load on an air conditioner is moisture. Once the moisture is gone lowering the temperature is easy.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood, thanks ace. it's been very rainy here in recent weeks. the last batch i harvested came in with the highest water content i've had in awhile, 17.5%. this batch had zero uncapped honey in it, but i think it may have ended up too 'wet' if i hadn't brought it in for a couple days.


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> If you have a water faucet whose tap is open and another whose tap is closed is there flow from both? Flow in beekeeping is when nectar is coming in.


Huh? I see bees on the clover and the sourwood in my yard, aren't they gathering nectar?


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

repost by accident


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

they're still bringing it in here in northeast alabama, but at a much slower rate than a month ago. i think the regular rains have helped to extend our flow a little, but i don't expect it to go on much longer. i've just started to notice a few 'would be' robbers poking around my hives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beekeeper79 said:


> Huh? I see bees on the clover and the sourwood in my yard, aren't they gathering nectar?


The answer to that question is in your hive(s). Are you seeing any new honey?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Are you seeing any new honey?


I could be wrong on the terminology for "flow" but I think flow implies storing excess. Bees could be gathering nectar at such a slow pace that they are consuming it rather than it being excess.


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## beekeeper79 (Jun 24, 2013)

I extracted the honey and some was capped. It was very light in color compared to my friends honey and also a good bit thinner (I've heard that lighter honey can be thinner. I know without a refractometer (one is on order) I won't know the moisture content...how do you reduce the moisture in the honey if it is too high?






Also how much time do I have before it ferments? And what can I do to prevent that in the meantime?


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Freeze it and keep it frozen and it will keep for years. IMHO, there is no affect on quality.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beekeeper79 said:


> I won't know the moisture content...how do you reduce the moisture in the honey if it is too high?


Do you have a postage scale? Take a metal measuring cup the smallest one you have and weigh it. Record the weight. Put in two or three tablespoons of honey in the cup and weigh it again. Subtract the weight of the cup and record the weight. Put it in the oven around 200 degrees and dry it until it is hard. Let it cool and weigh again. Subtract the weight of the cup. Take the dry weight of the honey and divide it by the wet weight of the honey and that should be greater than 82 percent.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

beekeeper79 said:


> ...how do you reduce the moisture in the honey if it is too high?


 Some people find success reducing the moisture content of their honey by putting it in a small room with a dehumidifier. Here is a related thread: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?286372-Dehumidifier-to-reduce-moisture-in-honey


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Do you have a postage scale? Take a metal measuring cup the smallest one you have and weigh it. Record the weight. Put in two or three tablespoons of honey in the cup and weigh it again. Subtract the weight of the cup and record the weight. Put it in the oven around 200 degrees and dry it until it is hard. Let it cool and weigh again. Subtract the weight of the cup. Take the dry weight of the honey and divide it by the wet weight of the honey and that should be greater than 82 percent.


I'm sorry Brian, but do you really think anybody would do that? Especially if they had any amount of honey to dry down? 

How about suggesting something more practical. Like taking honey off of hives only when 75% of the comb surface is capped, on average. Or setting supers of honey that you know is high moisture, above 18.5%, in a small room like a closet, standing on end and using a dehumidifier, a fan to blow the air around, and a heat source to dry down the honey still in the comb.

Mostly, if you let the bees keep the honey until late in the Summer and you take it all off at the same time, usually all the honey you extract will be w/in the recommended range of 16.5% to 18.5% moisture content.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Actually, Mark, I believe Ace was trying to provide a kind of homemade refractometer substitute.  I would be very surprised if Ace has _actually done this himself_ with honey, however. 






... anyone familiar with the term '_dry lab_' from back in school with those science classes with a laboratory component? ...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I wish he would. Actually, every time Brian suggests something I wish he would try it before suggesting it. But that's probably me being frustrated when I don't need to be.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Graham, I wouldn't be surprised...really. :shhhh:


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have had a very interesting experience with flow this year. and how it relates to the activities in any colony.

Any flow we may have had here is now long over. For about the past month I have been able to observe how nectar flow effects conditions within colonies. this coupled with robbing. I have 16 hives I placed out in the dessert. conditions out there are very bad right now. two or three of these colonies are busting with bees and even have a frame or two of honey. This indicating that given the resources they will maintain healthy populations but not much more. the other hives have very little brood and nearly no nectar or honey. 

This leads me to believe that the conditions in the stronger colonies is actually a result of them robbing out the weaker ones. The comparison it creates is striking. One result of this is a much better since of what is going on with a colony in regard to flow.

Bees on a flow will have large brood nests. be filled with bees and have some stored honey and nectar even if they have a heavy load of brood to rear. Bees not on a flow will have little if any nectar stored using all incoming resources to rear as much brood as possible. often even that not being much.

Low brood equals poor flow. No comb drawing equals poor flow. Storing honey is the last thing on a list that bees do with incoming nectar. As far as I can tell they will first rear brood. then build comb then store any excess.

In order to provide enough nectar to keep all going at adequate levels requires a lot of nectar to be flowing. Bees can always find some amount of nectar. it is a matter of where that nectar supply lands them on the list of things they do with it. To me it is somewhat of a meter I can judge flow by. I do not expect to see any more nectar for the bees until August at best. So we gave every colony a gallon sugar water yesterday. If I wanted to see them build up to maximum brood. continue to draw out unused frames and start storing excess I would continue to give them sugar water every week for the next 4 weeks. As it is I only hope to keep them going until that next flow. And then let them build up and store on that. Typically we will get a flow that starts in August and remains into November. It comes from one of the most prevalent plants we have here. Rabbit Brush. Horrible honey but it is what allows bees to be kept well here. It will provide pollen in January. and is the most reliable source of late season nectar for prepping for winter. It does not require rain to produce a flow. Think of something along the lines of a cactus.

At any rate. all situation provide opportunity to learn. Don't get so caught up in the struggle that you fail to observe and expand understanding. In this case I will get no honey at all but probably learned the most about what takes place to get bees to make honey. you can learn as much by what did not happen as you can by what did.

Bees even in very poor conditions can maintain or even build to some degree on their population. but to be able to rear brood, draw comb and store excess takes exceptional conditions. and that is what has become known as a flow.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very true dan. weather and forage availability get my vote to become the first axiom of 'all beekeeping is local'.

this is one reason why it's hard to extrapolate from studies done on bees in different locations, or why similar bees treated similarly may experience different outcomes.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Move the uncapped frames to a hive that is really strong and will cap them fast.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

EastSideBuzz said:


> Move the uncapped frames to a hive that is really strong and will cap them fast.


exactly what i did. the strong hives actually needed something to do and the weaker ones needed less.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Do you remove all your honey supers before feeding that gallon or do you simply make the assumption that they will use it not store it?

If that is the case how does one know when bees are prepping for winter by storing syrup rather than just using it?

I ask as I strongly suspect my bees are consuming honey now rather than storing it but don't want sugar syrup in my honey.




Daniel Y said:


> I have had a very interesting experience with flow this year. and how it relates to the activities in any colony.
> 
> Any flow we may have had here is now long over. For about the past month I have been able to observe how nectar flow effects conditions within colonies. this coupled with robbing. I have 16 hives I placed out in the dessert. conditions out there are very bad right now. two or three of these colonies are busting with bees and even have a frame or two of honey. This indicating that given the resources they will maintain healthy populations but not much more. the other hives have very little brood and nearly no nectar or honey.
> 
> ...


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

bees will use a little honey to get through a 'dearth', but not as much as you think especially if they are taking a brood break which most strains normally would be doing during that condition.

sounds like daniel's goal is brood and bees for splits and not honey. 

syrup is definitely stored and there is possibility that stored syrup will get moved into honey supers after they are added.

overwintering on honey instead of stored syrup is one of the common denominators of successful treatment free operations, and is likely a healthy recipe for most operations.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I wish he would. Actually, every time Brian suggests something I wish he would try it before suggesting it. But that's probably me being frustrated when I don't need to be.


Tried it Mark? I have done it many times for life saving medical products. You get all upset over things you don't understand. You take a refractometer as gospel? How do you check it? Drying down a substrate be it peanut butter, tea leaves or even honey and weighing it is how. Open your mind Mark just a little and you can pass something down to your children. Or buy a reftactometer and be one happy fool you know what you are doing.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You actually have that sensitive a scale? You have actually done that w/ honey? And you really expect others to do what you described?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

WBVC said:


> Do you remove all your honey supers before feeding that gallon or do you simply make the assumption that they will use it not store it?
> 
> If that is the case how does one know when bees are prepping for winter by storing syrup rather than just using it?
> 
> I ask as I strongly suspect my bees are consuming honey now rather than storing it but don't want sugar syrup in my honey.


Due to earlier attempts to rear queens and how they turned out. My bees never had much of a chance to store any honey. Poor return on mated queens coupled with poor flow due to drought just did a honey harvest in. I am feeding now because some hives have nothing at all in the cells. Those that do only have a few frames. Whatever nectar they are finding seems to me is going straight in to the mouths of larva as they attempt to keep their population going. The sugar water is an attempt to take some of the work load off of them in getting populations back up.

We never got the number of mated queens I had expected. with those queens I had planned to restore the population of bees to the hives that had reared them. In addition several of the hives after swarm season then proceeded to supersede their queens. Final result was most hives did not have a large enough work force right at the time they could have made any honey. add to that a short flow due to hot dry conditions. and the bees never had much of a chance this year.

As Squarepeg points out. I am going for broke in making bees since I will not get any honey out of them. My main goal for this year is reaching 207 colonies going into winter. but not having any honey is goign to leave a lot of customers unhappy.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> And you really expect others to do what you described?


I don't expect anything from anybody. I am sure most will buy an instrument and be fat dumb and happy with what they get for results. There are a few that may try to do the test the way it would be done in a lab and the way it would be done to check or calibrate an instrument.

What I have used in the past was a Ohaus moisture balance. Is has a heating element within its structure that dried out a sample and calculated the moisture continually. With such a device you could determine the length of time needed to dry a sample out because the value would stop increasing. No I haven't tried what I suggested with honey so I don't know what the time cycle would be. I do know that the method is valid.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> What I have used in the past was a Ohaus moisture balance. Is has a heating element within its structure that dried out a sample and calculated the moisture continually.


Sounds expensive $$$ ...



> I am sure most will buy an instrument and be fat dumb and happy with what they get for results.


So were you also '_fat dumb and happy_' with that Ohaus 'moisture balance'?:scratch: How do you know the unit was accurate? How often did you calibrate the Ohaus? Can you trace the calibration tools back to NIST? :s


The fact is that a refractometer, with an appropriate calibration tool/fluid that actually gets used, is the most _practical _way to determine the moisture content of honey.



> No I haven't tried what I suggested with honey so I don't know what the time cycle would be.


So you haven't ever actually tried drying honey in an oven. Have you ever used a refractometer to check honey moisture? How do you know that what you are bottling is actually _honey, _or perhaps you prefer to remain '_fat dumb and happy_'? 

.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> How often did you calibrate the Ohaus?


It was calibrated every 6 months to NIST for 23 years that I have witnessed, More than 23 years that I did not witness.

I don't sell honey so I don't have to test it. I described a method that someone could use to determine moisture content for honey. If they want to buy a refractometer they can. It has been my experience that if you go cheap with such an instrument you won't be able to trust the results. If you do not take the necessary care with the instrument its results will be flawed.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

I like the manual way you describe. I took note don't know if I will ever try it but, it is a good one for those that want to be sure and don't want to buy a tool. The tools to test require color to see the %. For those of us that are color blind this is a good method. Police use radar it gets challenged in court on the calibration date of the unit (I know because I have beaten a few) but, when a cop counts and does it manually he always wins. So Kudo's to you on telling us the manual method. Also I saw that welcome back Kotter Episode first run.


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