# Acidifying sugar syrup to reduce disease susceptibility



## John Kempf (Jun 30, 2021)

Hi friends, 

Since the natural pH of honey reduces pest susceptibility, and the higher pH of sugar syrup increases it, would it be possible to reduce the pH of sugar syrup to match that of honey?

I prefer to avoid feeding if at all possible. I leave on plenty of honey, and use frames of honey for feeding when possible. Yet, there are those times and situations where feeding sugar can be necessary. 

For context, from @Michael Bush 's The Practical Beekeeper, page 100: Many of the honeybee's enemies, such as nosema, chalkbrood, EFB, and varroa all thrive and reproduce better at the pH of sugar syrup and don't reproduce well at the pH of honey. This, however, seems to be universally ignored in the beekeeping world. The prevailing theory on how oxalic acid trickling works is that the bee's hemolymph becomes too acidic. for the varroa and they die, while the bees do not. So how is it helpful to feed the bees something that has a pH in the range that most of their enemies, including Nosema, thrive, rather than leave them honey that is in the pH range where most of their enemies fail?

Would it be possible to acidify sugar syrup to remove these negative effects from the more alkali pH? 

Would it be possible to acidify sugar syrup to the point where it also reduces pH of the bee's hemolymph and has a positive effect on bee health? 

Does anyone know the pH range of nectar?

I am wondering what the possibilities might be of acidifying syrup with citric acid, ascorbic acid, or possibly even oxalic acid?

This also means that when making sugar syrup with water, water quality becomes really important. Hard water with high levels of dissolved calcium and bicarbonates with alkaline pH's is probably not a great idea. 

Has anything along these lines been tried?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Just don't worry too much.
If still worry - then re-read many topics that have answers to your question on the BS.
Been talked over to the death.


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## Newbeek2021 (May 13, 2021)

GregV said:


> then re-read many topics that have answers to your question on the BS.
> Been talked over to the death.


We talk about alot to death here....that doesnt mean we cant continue to talk about it. There is only so much "new" content that gets posted. John has 3 posts so hes likely new & had a legit question on something he obviously feels pationate about....not looking for a fight Greg but you would have been further ahead to not respond at all then to respond with just telling him to do a search....
Have another cup of coffee ya grump, its only monday, pace yourself


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Newbeek2021 said:


> We talk about alot to death here....that doesnt mean we cant continue to talk about it. There is only so much "new" content that gets posted. John has 3 posts so hes likely new & had a legit question on something he obviously feels pationate about....not looking for a fight Greg but you would have been further ahead to not respond at all then to respond with just telling him to do a search....
> Have another cup of coffee ya grump, its only monday, pace yourself


Fine. 

Let me help.
Go to Google.
Paste this - "beesource acid sugar syrup".
Get you coffee and start reading.
Be sure you have plenty of time.
If still have questions - raise your hand.
LOL


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

It is quite simple, bacteria breed more rapidly in a higher PH than in a lower PH, just add a dollop of cider vinegar to your syrup and whats more I add a little chlorox and you no longer get the algae growth in the sugar and you feeders are kept much cleaner.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

GregV said:


> Fine.
> 
> Let me help.
> Go to Google.
> Paste this - "beesource acid sugar syrup".


There is a better search syntax that returns ONLY Beesource results:
Paste this - "*acid sugar syrup site:beesource.com*" into the Google search box.


GregV's syntax can return results that *mention* Beesource, without being actual Beesource threads. Using the "site:" keyword combined with the "beesource.com" domain name restricts results to just Beesource.com.

Of course, you can use the "site:" keyword with other sites as well. And this syntax also works with DuckDuckGo.com if you prefer that search engine. (The colon ":" is required to follow "site" as shown.)


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Seem to recall a forum post by Michael Bush where he stated he uses ascorbic acid in his syrup for the reasons you mention. Sorry, do not remember how much...

BTW while MB sporadically posts here on Beesource, do not recall seeing him post in the TF sub forum since I have been following.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

My wife and I tried acidifying syrup for a little while with distilled vinegar since it does not have the roughage apple cider vinegar does but after a couple years we went back to plain sugar syrup. My bees do great on plain sugar syrup. No expensive HBH and similar so called "stimulants" or essential oils. Sucrose and water is the best combo short of nectar easily available.

That being said bees can do a lot to plain sugar syrup by the time it is inverted and condensed. Bacteria won't breed well in it either when it is below 18% on a refractometer. Healthy bees take syrup fast and deal with it fast. 

Keep in mind some nectars are pretty alkaline and bees have no problem turning it into acidic honey.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Keep in mind some nectars are pretty alkaline and bees have no problem turning it into acidic honey.


Because in the end - the bees swallow it and spit it back many, many times, thus including their own ferments and whatever hack that is.
End product is still a variety of honey with similar properties - just from a different original source (sugar syrup in this case).


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

The reason that the vinegar and chlorox is added is to preserve the life of the feed and to prevent all the feeders getting covered in goo that has to be cleaned before it can be used again. And there is no ill effect on the bees When bees feed on their own honey they digest the slightly acidic and also antimicrobial honey although the antimicrobial stuff is apparently Hydrogen peroxide not chlorox. I use around 1/4 teaspoon of chlorox to 5 gallond of feed.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

johno said:


> The reason that the vinegar and chlorox is added is to preserve the life of the feed and to prevent all the feeders getting covered in goo that has to be cleaned before it can be used again. And there is no ill effect on the bees When bees feed on their own honey they digest the slightly acidic and also antimicrobial honey although the antimicrobial stuff is apparently Hydrogen peroxide not chlorox. I use around 1/4 teaspoon of chlorox to 5 gallond of feed.


Wow, I use a lot more. I do 1/2 tsp per gallon with success.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

To add an element of entertainment….while the pH of honey is low (acidic), the pH of nectar isn’t necessarily low and in all likelihood is close to neutral. The acidity of honey is generally added to the nectar by the bees during the process of converting nectar to honey.
Since sugar syrup is actually a nectar substitute your bees will acidify it during the conversion to honey.
I add one gram of ascorbic acid per each gallon of finished sugar syrup to keep it from readily growing mold. Otherwise, I don’t believe that it serves a purpose.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

I have to back up and agree with Johno and beemandan that preserving syrup can be important. Wasting syrup is wasting $$$$$
I do mine a little different though as I don't add anything to my tote unless I have excess feed. We do sometimes end up with several gallons left over and if we aren't going to be able to use it for a few days we do add either distilled vinegar or Clorox to allow it to last a bit longer.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Newbeek2021 said:


> death...doesnt mean we cant continue to talk


No. It's a repeat topic. DRY (Don't repeat yourself.)


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

GregV said:


> End product is still a variety of honey with similar properties - just from a different original source (sugar syrup in this case).





beemandan said:


> To add an element of entertainment….while the pH of honey is low (acidic), the pH of nectar isn’t necessarily low and in all likelihood is close to neutral. The acidity of honey is generally added to the nectar by the bees during the process of converting nectar to honey.



DING!!



> We highlighted the detrimental effect of syrups acidity on honeybee survival, suggesting that the addition of lemon or any other acidifying substance to invert the sucrose could be harmful and not necessary. Our results suggest a responsible approach to homemade colony nutrition.


Frizzera, Davide, et al. "Possible side effects of sugar supplementary nutrition on honey bee health." Apidologie (2020): 1-15.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

If we are really going to create a rule that we cannot post discussions that anyone in the history of this board has already discussed, please let me know.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

I suppose those things work.
I add about .25g of thymol (dissolved in 1g of 190 proof grain alcohol) for each gallon of heavy syrup. I also add a couple of drops of lemongrass oil per gallon. The bees love it, and nothing grows in it. I have kept syrup over winter and used it the next fall. 
I also use the thymol when recycling clay for my wife's pottery business, because used clay in the bucket grows mold or something, and stinks like a sewer. By the time I have reliquified, mixed, screened, and dried it down to moist clay, it smells fine.


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