# Common-Sense Natural Beekeeping



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Good 5-part article series in the ABJ attached outlining the profiles of 5 TF or near TF beekeepers with commentary related to the principles they have employed to guide their efforts.

There is also a companion podcast featuring Mr. Kim Flottum and Ms. Stephanie Bruneau, co-authors of 'Common-Sense Natural Beekeeping'.

The article and podcast might be best summarized by the summary for the podcast:

_'Sound management, no chemicals, adequate housing, good nutrition, local stock and attention to detail, when combined by the bees and the beekeeper, add up to Common Sense Natural Beekeeping.'_


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> Good 5-part article series in the ABJ attached outlining the profiles of 5 TF or near TF beekeepers with commentary related to the principles they have employed to guide their efforts.
> 
> There is also a companion podcast featuring Mr. Kim Flottum and Ms. Stephanie Bruneau, co-authors of 'Common-Sense Natural Beekeeping'.
> 
> ...


Very much appreciated, Litsinger! I love resources on TF, like this! (especially when they contain multiple, real story's of people doing it)


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

BEE J said:


> especially when they contain multiple, real story's of people doing it


sort of...


In my view the article is a political hack job to try to gain TF market share, is fairly misleading and kind of dangers message

a big dose of sugar coat and no meat or real information... save that keeping small hives, constant splitting and mostly in AHB areas is a path that works... its a lot like how "internet bond" sounds great, but is a far cry from the bond methods that work

#1 they keep bees, montague, ma usa...
Ang is the real deal, but they gloss over what powereds the operation, she has access to some of the top TF stocks in the country and she migrates to spend Sept-April in FL making splits/queens to get her numbers up ... this has worked well for Sam Comfort and others... In one of his presations Sam talks about taking 5 hives to FL for the winter and growing them in to 130 three frame nucs to drive up to NY in the spring.. when you can recover like that,* you can take the hit*

#2 Les Crowder, Austin, TX
Moved out side of AHB range, took massive loses, moved back to AHB territory

#3 Alex Tuchman Director, Spikenard Honeybee Sanctuary, Floyd, Virginia
a treated operation, not shure why they were covered


> We have a weekly monitoring process using debris trays where we monitor the mite load in each hive. We approach each hive as an individual, never doing any preemptive or automatic treatments


#4 Nathalie B. Bee Mindful Honey Farms, Austin, Texas
AHB range

#5 Dan Weaver BeeWeaver Honey Farm, Navasota,TX 
AHB range

The series fails to show one single TF operation north of TX, yet its intent is to permote such methods


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> The series fails to show one single TF operation north of TX, yet its intent is to permote such methods


Don't despise small beginnings, my friend...


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

The title made me smile. Common sense? Beekeeping? Both in one breath?

A huge problem with TF is that too many of us are new and small. We don't know what we are seeing, and so can't evaluate the situation as well as more experienced people could have. I now know what a hive dying of varroa and virus looks like. I didn't know that 5 years ago. When I saw 'things' happening, I was very slow to respond, too late, too little. Now, I routinely place an OA towel in the hives, so am no longer TF. And I see very few varroa mites. In fact have not seen one this year.

When I get back up to a dozen hives I may try isolating a few of them TF, so I can observe what happens. And respond appropriately.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Not too many reports coming from up my way.


Litsinger said:


> Don't despise small beginnings, my friend...


In The Little Engine That Could, *each train gives different reasons for why it won't, or can't, help the toys*. Despite the fact that they each feel that they are doing right, they may be doing the wrong thing by failing to help. The idea that there is a right and a wrong thing despite circumstances is moral absolutism.

Balance! Opportunities may be lost, but think well how best to use your resources. Hope is the fuel for some, while risk avoidance brings tranquility to others.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> Balance! Opportunities may be lost, but think well how best to use your resources. Hope is the fuel for some, while risk avoidance brings tranquility to others.


No argument from me, Frank. That is why I think it is best to synthesize everything we learn from all corners and apply it to our unique situation as our goals and objectives deem best.

I am heartened to see that some of the most illustrious minds in our industry have enough confidence in a genetic solution to varroa that they are taking concrete steps to see it manifest.

Onward and upward!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> Not too many reports coming from up my way.


Hearing anything about the ORHBS program, Frank?






Ontario Resistant Honey Bee Selection Program | Ontario Beekeepers’ Association


Information on the current Honey Bee Breeders that participated in the Ontario Mite & Disease Resistant Honey Bee Breeding Program.




www.ontariobee.com


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## mill-j (10 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> featuring Mr. Kim Flottum and Ms. Stephanie Bruneau, co-authors of 'Common-Sense Natural Beekeeping'.


I bought that book. One of the very few beekeeping books I own. I was kinda disappointed. Turns out common sense beekeeping is rather boring. The book is mostly power-point style with lots of useless pictures. There was very little (if any) info that was new to me. And pretty much no actual hands-on info. 

That said the book is fairly accurate and I can see someone who has done everything by the "conventional" beekeeping book would find it useful to get _*started*_ down the TF rabbit hole...


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Living in Chicago suburb and near other backyard beekeepers *I have to be free of TF*. Otherwise I would have to buy packages/nucs every year or quit this great hobby.

So I thank Randy Oliver, Johno, Pasieka Kamionek in Warsaw and many others for helping me to be free of TF. Should I call it FTF or FOTF?


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## Lumberman (Jul 20, 2021)

As a new BK these threads are very confusing. My perspective is very fresh, so I have no long-term thoughts on the subject. 

Through my research TF is moving along but has not yet been perfected. Seems like everyone agrees the long-term solution will be genetics or something along those lines, we just aren't there yet. 

What I can't understand is all the infighting it creates. Even as a commercial BK wouldn't you want people working on a VM solution? On the other side we all agree not everyone can drop treating and go TF. At this point it seems each side needs the other. Where's the issue?


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Lumberman said:


> Even as a commercial BK wouldn't you want people working on a VM solution? On the other side we all agree not everyone can drop treating and go TF. At this point it seems each side needs the other. Where's the issue?


@Lumberman:

To be honest, I don't completely understand the animosity that arises at times either- I think there is a segment in both camps that possibly pins the trouble we are having with varroa on the other. However, in my very humble view it seems that the issue is much bigger and more multi-faceted than that. I for one subscribe to the 'all-of-the-above' camp, thinking that having many bright minds working on a common problem from a lot of different angles presents the best prospect for finding a sustainable solution.

I do appreciate folks like Randy Oliver who have figured out how to keep one foot squarely in both camps and endeavor to be as objective about the situation at-hand as possible:



Litsinger said:


> In the latest _'Beekeeping Today'_ podcast, Randy Oliver gives an update on his resistance breeding program starting at about the 29:45 mark:





Litsinger said:


> Our selective breeding program for mite resistance





Litsinger said:


> Randy Oliver posted a detailed description of his resistance breeding program recently





Litsinger said:


> Update from Randy in the most recent ABJ (Part 1 of a 3* part series).





Litsinger said:


> Part 2 of 3 of Randy's resistance breeding program posted in the July 2022 ABJ.





Litsinger said:


> Part 3 of 3 of Randy's resistance breeding program posted in the August 2022 ABJ.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> Living in Chicago suburb and near other backyard beekeepers *I have to be free of TF*. Otherwise I would have to buy packages/nucs every year or quit this great hobby.
> 
> So I thank Randy Oliver, Johno, Pasieka Kamionek in Warsaw and many others for helping me to be free of TF. Should I call it FTF or FOTF?


This is a binary approach - which is incorrect.
This is also sending a wrong message to those who still are trying to understand the entire issue.

Just because I am also in a heavily mite-infested location, I will not declare to be "free of TF".
Not at all.
As I already demonstrated - there are differences in the bee stock (just one example) - these convert into mandatory *heavy *treatments OR still mandatory but *mild *treatments OR maybe other variations of the management.

Necessity and the degree and the nature of the treatments are continuously varying parameters (not an ON/OFF switch).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Lumberman said:


> What I can't understand is all the infighting it creates. ....... Where's the issue?


The most fundamental issue is - any beek will tell about "all beekeeping is local" AND yet the same very beek will fail to see how this affects his/her own situation (vs. the others).
All it is.

SO - some TF beeks imagine that everyone else should be able to be TF - JUST LIKE THEM.

And them some heavily treating beeks (justifiably!) also imagine that everyone else should be treating - JUST LIKE THEM.

Look at these.
Is it not obvious that both camps are wrong?
Obvious to me.
Surely there are many very similar cases (both ways and in between).
But this is not the default assumption that needs to be.

All beekeeping is local.
Enough repetition yet?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

At the research level of equipment, procedural acumen and large enough hive numbers to get significant numbers to cull from, a stock can be selected that demonstrates considerable resistance to varroa. According to R.O. locking it in is another issue. Varroa, nor any of the other life forms preying on the bees are standing still in their own dirty works experimenting. The omni resistant bee for all time will have to continue as a work in progress I think.

I balk at implications that Joe three hives can keep such resistance alive in his hands or even more so that he could achieve such results just by positive thinking. A once and done solution wont happen any more than it is achievable in human disease. I am glad that some of the finest minds are continually working away at it!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> I balk at implications that Joe three hives can keep such resistance alive in his hands or even more so that he could achieve such results just by positive thinking.


Randy speaks to this in his recent update:



Litsinger said:


> ... what is the backyard beekeeper to do?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

great thread russ. i noticed a colon after your first comment, do you have a link to randy's recent update for us?


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

squarepeg said:


> ...do you have a link to randy's recent update for us?


If you click the link it will take you to a PDF copy of part III of Randy's resistance breeding article series published in the June - August 2022 ABJ.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

squarepeg said:


> great thread russ. i noticed a colon after your first comment, do you have a link to randy's recent update for us?


you can click on the link one line below


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

got it, thanks!


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Sorry, I was to late with my two finger typing


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> I balk at implications that Joe three hives can keep such resistance alive in his hands or even more so that he could achieve such results just by positive thinking.


I take exception that Frank. I have 4 hives. 😂😂🐝

I also have hope, for beekeeping in general and for a stock that beats mites down. But I have more treated hives than untreated as this is a bit of a side experiment for me. And if beeks everywhere were waiting on my results, ... I could save them some trouble, as both the bookkeeping and location are not average. One is well below, the other well above. 😂

Another of your points I often echo. There’s all kinds of crud that kills or sickens bees. I’ve killed a bunch of bees in ways that weren’t related to varroa, and that’s not counting the pestilence of which you speak.

To the question posed by @Lumberman , I think most beeks with a TF axe to grind have had the disheartening, gut-wrenching losses caused by a naive attitude toward mites. They’ve watch others as well, and seen some snake oil sold that promises the cure.

My own bees usually didn’t crash until the second winter, so 20-22 months would go by with me convinced I had something special. I did not. But you can see how buying new bees every year or two seems like a good soldier’s way to “stick to it”. - I like your humble attitude, bees will continually fan that flame. They school me frequently. 😃🐝


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> Don't despise small beginnings, my friend...


not despise, a gut check 
#3 is smaller then you, and treats....
why are you not featured?(you should be).... marketing
and that's what this hit piece is, marketing

I would rather read about Stevens, Latshaw, Finkelstein, Hall, etc
people who are doing real work with real bees in the real world (honey and pollination)

I am not saying these people featured aren't "successful" by thier own metrics, but this piece targets hobbyist beekeepers (most who don't want to do "real work") and leaves out that the mechanisms that are at work to create said success are mostly beyond their reach (save move to AFB areas run small hives and split to the point of almost no honey harvest) This leads people to "try it" and see while having no idea if or how it would work, just expect it to, and that has time and time again been a fairly repeatable and predicable recipe for failure.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> ... not despise, a gut check...


I think I know where you're coming from, MSL and I appreciate your straight talk. I was just having a bit of fun with you on the feedback.

While I don't have any reason to believe that the ABJ is on a mission to convert anyone to TF, I can see how one might feel that the series is overly focused on the positive aspects without dwelling on the difficulties.

I wonder it is akin to several discussions we've had around here of late where I suspect the publisher / promoter assumes his / her audience have a certain level of knowledge about beekeeping and the disease landscape and the risk / reward paradigm associated with various bee management choices- possibly to their harm.

More generally, the foundation of all these examples is genetics. Indeed, Mr. Kim Flottom himself had gotten much further down the road with _Common-Sense Natural Beekeeping_ since introducing Certified Russian stock into his apiary.

Big picture, I suspect more and more folks are adopting Randy's mantra- which really cuts both ways and opens up more opportunities to find a common cause:

*A suggestion: instead of wearing an anti-treatment hat, swap it for a pro-genetic improvement hat.*


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

...or let's select for bees that are self-treating for mites...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

squarepeg said:


> ...or let's select for bees that are self-treating for mites...


....or select the bees that require minimal help in brutal mite-infested landscapes.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

While we are at it lets keep in mind honey production; that is unless the interest is simply pollination and selling bulk bees. Oh and keep in mind bees not requiring a suit of armour to work them.......! Hmmm?


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> While we are at it lets keep in mind honey production; that is unless the interest is simply pollination and selling bulk bees. Oh and keep in mind bees not requiring a suit of armour to work them.......! Hmmm?


This:


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

I self treat for stress, and boredom so it may be possible.....
A dark draught, usually is a cure in 2 or 3 glasses.



squarepeg said:


> ...or let's select for bees that are self-treating for mites...


GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Russ that is indeed a nice bucket list of desirable qualities for bees; getting them all in the one creature will not be an easy task. Some noted beekeeper said that simultaneously selecting for multiple traits is a recipe for failure.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Good point, Frank.

I asked Mr. Les Eccles about this (as follows). I think the key to their program is starting with stocks that are already well down the road in all areas but varroa resistance and adding this as an additional selection metric to pre-selected stocks:

Q: _... does the ORHBS program have a published quantitative or qualitative evaluation matrix that now includes LVG? _

A: _ORHBS hasn't published much in this regard because it is quite new, also the project on LVG by the UofG that ORHBS has been involved in will be published in the future. We provide individual testing results directly to ORHBS breeders, but that is for their use in their own program and private information. In the future there will likely be more published work as more field data is obtained to present as industry results.... but that will be down the road._

If only we knew someone who lives in Ontario and could let us in on the inside scoop...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Yes wouldn't it be nice if you could talk to someone in the know and do so away from the reach of the cameras and microphones! Many whose opinions would be of value would be reluctant to speak about the pecking order of various breeders offerings. You would have to establish a position of trust before you start to gather much information of note. Some would fill you full of fluff just to watch you go and blow it around!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> This:


I had the opportunity to have a nice conversation with Mr. Graeme Foers, President of ORHBS about the incorporation of Low Varroa Growth (LVG) into the program.

He was very helpful and offered a lot of feedback concerning the program itself and some of the lessons-learned. A few of the more specific takeaways:

1. In order to be a member-in-good-standing within ORHBS, a candidate breeder must participate in the program for three (3) years prior to membership and adhere to all the breeding standards.

2. All breeding standards incorporate third-party testing by the Technology Transfer Program. He stressed that to his mind this is one of the key strengths of ORHBS- everyone's bees are tested to the same protocols by the same third-party team, helping to develop consistency and objectivity in results.

3. LVG was added to the Formal Breeding Program two years ago as an optional component. This coming year will be the first year where LVG will be a mandatory component for all ORHBS members.

4. The LVG assay itself is performed as a two-step process:

Step 1 - Complete an initial assay shortly after any Spring treatment has been applied.

Step 2- Complete a follow-up assay 10 - 14 weeks later (12 weeks being considered ideal).

The assay itself is either a 72 hour mite drop count or a 300 bee mite wash.

5. At present, there are no breeding standards relative to LVG. Thus starting this coming year, all ORHBS members will be required to test for it, but it will be at their discretion to determine how to incorporate the results into their selection efforts.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Litsinger said:


> The assay itself is either: a 72 hour mite drop count or; a 300 bee mite wash.


Interesting they consider them equivalent.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Interesting they consider them equivalent.


Graeme mentioned a parametric study that he has going with UofG to test how equivalent they are in both isolated and non-isolated settings. Reminded me in part of Mr. Randy Oliver's evaluations of this subject:









Re-Evaluating Varroa Monitoring: Part 1 - Methods - Scientific Beekeeping


Re-Evaluating Varroa Monitoring Part 1 METHODS Randy Oliver ScientificBeekeeping.com First published in ABJ March 2020 In order to avoid the preventable death of colonies due to varroa-virus overload, we’re told to monitor our colonies’ mite levels. But how best to do so? In this series of...




scientificbeekeeping.com












Re-Evaluating Varroa Monitoring: Part 2 - Questions on Sampling Hives for Varroa - Scientific Beekeeping


Re-Evaluating Varroa Monitoring Part 2 QUESTIONS ON SAMPLING HIVES FOR VARROA Randy Oliver ScientificBeekeeping.com First published in ABJ April 2020 In order to monitor the varroa infestation rate of the adult bees in a colony, one must take a sample of bees from somewhere in the hive. But how...




scientificbeekeeping.com












Re-Evaluating Varroa Monitoring: Part 3 - How Does Mite Distribution Vary Frame-to-Frame in a Hive? - Scientific Beekeeping


Re-Evaluating Varroa Monitoring Part 3 HOW DOES MITE DISTRIBUTION VARY FRAME-TO-FRAME IN A HIVE? Randy Oliver ScientificBeekeeping.com First published in ABJ May 2020 In the previous articles in this series I evaluated the different methods for varroa monitoring, and then discussed the state of...




scientificbeekeeping.com












Re-Evaluating Varroa Monitoring: Part 4 - What About Letting the Shook Bees Fly Off? - Scientific Beekeeping


Re-Evaluating Varroa Monitoring Part 4 WHAT ABOUT LETTING THE SHOOK BEES FLY OFF? Randy Oliver ScientificBeekeeping.com First appeared in ABJ June 2020 In my previous article I showed how the varroa infestation rate of bees varied by comb type, with those on brood frames having higher mite...




scientificbeekeeping.com





For ORHBS, the preferred method is the 72 hour mite drop, but they decided to allow mite washes to accommodate the four-way set-ups of a lot of their member breeders.


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