# Africanized bees found in Tennessee



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Wonder how they got there? More to this story IMHO.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Rick 1456 said:


> Wonder how they got there?


 Quote -"The bee colony was purchased by the beekeeper last year from an out-of-state dealer".

Wonder who that was?


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## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

That's the same story they're running on the Knoxville news (Channel 8).


Good advice at the bottom for Africanized bees: run. 

I don't know what would be worse, bee stings or cpr from running.

deleted


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

I wonder how long until they evolve and end up as far north as Canada.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> ...out-of-state dealer".
> 
> Wonder who that was?


It could happen to any producer just a little farther south - all it would take is a few African drones in the right place at the right time.

If we keep having winters this mild it could get to be a real problem.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I've had Russianized bees, and I certainly don't want anything worse, or maybe they aren't. Please keep them South of the border, the Ky. border that is.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Hey folks, I'm a Texan, and I can't believe you guys are smuggleing our bees up your way. Seriously, they are vicious and persistent.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

lazy shooter said:


> Hey folks, I'm a Texan, and I can't believe you guys are smuggleing our bees up your way. Seriously, they are vicious and persistent.


LOL, quit trying to scare them...they're endemic here & we've pretty much all learned to deal with them...yes, some AHB colonies can be a pain to get too close to, but others you'd never know were africanized until you saw the size of their brood chamber, or had DNA testing done on them. Definitely NOT the "killer bees" of the lore that spreads rampantly north of the Mason-Dixon line.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I am pretty sure my ferals would be classed as "African".


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

robherc said:


> Definitely NOT the "killer bees" of the lore that spreads rampantly north of the Mason-Dixon line.


 That is pretty funny. Sadly enough its very true. people north of the Mason-Dixon are definitely nervous about africanized genetics getting into their local stock. Most likely if you look hard enough you will find africanized genetics in most every state of the Union at this point whether its north or south of the Mason Dixon. Especially with national sales of packages and the migratory guys that run from the far south (Tx, Ls, Mi, Fl) to the far north (Me, Ma Id, ND, SD). It is what it is and yes the africanized genetics are becoming more and more tolerant as its gets a better mixing.

I don't think I would be concerned with 17% africanized genetics.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

%AHB have been confirmed in Maine and NY many years ago. A cpl cases in NY were depopulated. One confirmed case of 17%AHB should be of little concern to TN. But it makes the News.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I suspect they (AHB) come in more frequently than one would imagine, given our port in Wilmington, NC. If they survive our mild winter (they may have this year), then they most likely are swallowed by the genetic pool. I wonder if there are not more than one colony of 17% happily existing already here in eastern NC. Anyway it's makes for good News Fodder.... eeeeek "KILLER BEES"!


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Just means the local bees will show more feral traits and might even become more disease resistant. At this point most of those "killer bees" are just ferals.


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## summer1052 (Oct 21, 2007)

Is "partially africanized" anything like "partially" pregnant?? 

Yeah, the AHB are the norm in Central America, Mexico, part of South America, and parts of the US. I'm really not convinced it's a bad thing -- they seem to be more resistant to some of the diseases and pests. We may have to change how we handle them -- actually wear suits, veils, and use smokers.  But so what? I'm a lot more worried about who will be elected in November, how I'm going to pay my property taxes, making it through 7th grade math (AGAIN)! via my DD, and the Mayan Calendar Reset Button scheduled for 21 December. And 8th grade math (AGAIN!) next year. You pick your battles. 

*Summer*


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

summer1052 said:


> I'm a lot more worried about <snip> making it through 7th grade math (AGAIN)! via my DD, <snip> and 8th grade math (AGAIN!) next year.


t: DD=??? (Dearest Daughter?)


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## Vermillion (Feb 10, 2012)

^ Yes


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

summer1052 said:


> Is "partially africanized" anything like "partially" pregnant??


No, not at all similar. It's more like what percent European, African, and Eurasian you are. Percent AHB is morphometrically determined by trained entomologists thyrough lab analysis.


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## beekeeper120 (Jul 30, 2011)

They can be mean but, they can produce some high yeilds of honey and wax. I help a 
Friend with his 30 hives and he had 2 that were hot, like rip your face off hot. When we got inspected the inspector even said wow they are pissed. They seemed to laugh at smoke  But they filled up almost 2 to 1 ratio of supers. We have been splitting them over the Year now and although they are calmer they still Are top producers.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

That may be correct, but do you really know that they aren't just effective robbers?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I would, at the very least, bring in an outside breeder. Personally I would probably buy some mated queens from another area to requeen those hot ones. The Africanization process is kind of insidious, and will only get worse if you breed only from your locality.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I set out two swarm traps last week. If I catch a swarm, I will be suited up complete with gloves before tending to them. Last summer a young boy operating a tractor mower got too close to a beehive near an abandoned shed. The bees attacked him and he was stung over 100 times while driving the tractor back to his truck. He lived and all ended well. Apparently, in my area there are still some strong African bee genetics in some of the feral bees. This happened about eight miles from my ranch where I keep bees.


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## beekeeper120 (Jul 30, 2011)

I cant say for sure about the robbing, who could; but the other hives did not suffer any less of their normal yeild. We requeened the hot hives this morning, not worth the risk and potential trips to the ER not to mention if they are truly AHB , its illeagle here to keep them. We figure the old queens got superceded and the new ones mated with AHB drones and became hot. My point was its not all gloom and doom when it comes to AHB. They have some amazing traits that hopefully can be used for the greater good some day. Wounder if the bees have support groups or hate management courses


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## Runswithbees (Feb 1, 2012)

I think this lie about Africanized Honey Bees may be a greater threat to our honeybee than Varroa Destructor. Shame on "beekeepers" for believing this. Bees are bees. They are all Apis Melliferra. I love them.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Runswithbees said:


> I think this lie about Africanized Honey Bees may be a greater threat to our honeybee than Varroa Destructor. Shame on "beekeepers" for believing this. Bees are bees. They are all Apis Melliferra. I love them.



Uh, no, as a matter of fact, they're not! African honey bees are Apis Melliferra Scutellata, a different type of honeybee. Yes, they are all honeybees, but different. And what "lie" about Africanized bees are you talking about? That they're dangerous? or what? 
Regards,
Steven


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## RAFAEL/PR (Feb 23, 2012)

Runswithbees said:


> I think this lie about Africanized Honey Bees may be a greater threat to our honeybee than Varroa Destructor. Shame on "beekeepers" for believing this. Bees are bees. They are all Apis Melliferra. I love them.


Dude you dont know what your talking about ,and i cant believe you guys listen to the crap that the news bring, 99% of them dont know what going on with the bees, they just want to scare people and being scare make you want to listen to them more , im new to beekeeping and all of the bees in P.R are africanized honey bees
if they where killer bees 7 million people will be endanger in a small island that only 100 mile long and by 20 miles wide, we dont have your Problem with the Varror destructor mite because our bees attacks them. yes you will have some colony that are hot but Apis Mellifera could be mean sometime too, you will want some of the genetic traits of the AHB , like being more Resistance to mite and other pest .right now from i been seeing and hearing Apis Mellifera is losing that battle in the farming area and urban area not so much in the city if you could believe that , here a page of the AHB found in P.R, http://graduados.uprrp.edu/inventio/vol5_1/fight_against_mites.html


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

StevenG said:


> Uh, no, as a matter of fact, they're not! African honey bees are Apis Melliferra Scutellata, a different type of honeybee.
> Regards,
> Steven


So technically speaking Apis Mellifera is the species and Scutellata is the subspecies. Italians are Apis Mellifera Ligustica, Carniolans are Apis Mellifera Carnica, as Apis Mellifera Scutellata is African Honey Bee. They are all still Apis Mellifera.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Even "regular" bees can be hot. Hotter even than African. The only way to get rid of undesirable African traits is watering down their gene pool. Killing them off won't do it, nor will totally isolating the domestic bees. I have heard from old timers that our current bees are un-naturally tame compared to what they used to be like, and people have become used to this.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

RAFAEL/PR said:


> Dude you dont know what your talking about ,and i cant believe you guys listen to the crap that the news bring, 99% of them dont know what going on with the bees, they just want to scare people and being scare make you want to listen to them more , im new to beekeeping and all of the bees in P.R are africanized honey bees
> if they where killer bees 7 million people will be endanger in a small island


I read your article RAFAEL, very interesting. It also showed pics of people working their africanised hives without wearing veils. To quote from the article
"Africanized bees arrived in Puerto Rico in 1994, probably from Mexico or Texas, says Giray. But unlike other africanized bees, known popularly as “killer bees,” the bees in Puerto Rico are gentle, according to his laboratory team’s research, sponsored by National Science Foundation (NSF) and CATEC. “They’re not killer bees. Bert Rivera-Marchand, who completed his Ph.D. last year and is now assistant professor at InterAmerican University, Bayamón Campus, showed that bees in Puerto Rico are gentle africanized bees. Something has happened in Puerto Rico to make these bees less defensive.”

It then goes on to present a number of theories as to why these africanised bees are gentle. A DNA analysis shows the way the genes are constructed has european alleles at important points, and another theory is chance, the africanised genetics that arrived in PR just happened to be gentle.

In any case these bees are not the same as the africanised ones in the US and in other parts of the world. Time will tell, but you MIGHT be lucky in PR, with bees that have africanised resistance methods to varroa, but without the aggression to people.


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## Jeremy_K (May 17, 2011)

AHB=Kill them all, they have no place in NY


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## RAFAEL/PR (Feb 23, 2012)

Jeremy_K said:


> AHB=Kill them all, they have no place in NY


mmm your not smart for saying that , i was born and raise in Brooklyn NY for 48 year bud, AHB genetic traits might be the only thing that could save the honey bee in the U.S believe that ,if you like it or not!


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I see the validity in that, as unsettling as it may be for some. What it means is that our bees will get a bit wilder and the AHB will get a bit more domesticated and eventually they will become the same, in some vague middle ground.


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## RAFAEL/PR (Feb 23, 2012)

paul mccarty said:


> i see the validity in that, as unsettling as it may be for some. What it means is that our bees will get a bit wilder and the ahb will get a bit more domesticated and eventually they will become the same, in some vague middle ground.


wow !!! Someone understand what im getting to , thank you!! , =)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Wishful thinking.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm sorry, but exactly WHEN did AHB move into NY and SD??? I understand people from NM, TX, FL, MS, MO, OK, GA, AL, PR, etc. having strong opinions on AHB, we all have them, but NY and SD? When I lived in IN & had heard only rumors of "killer bees" I was concerned about them, but having never seen any I didn't consider myself an expert on them, or go around correcting & cajoling people who had first hand experience with them.
That said, SOME AHB are mean, mean, MEAN; some are really quite gentle, maybe more are mean than in "normal" european bloodlines, but as has already been said in this thread, if we keep+breed the gentler ones & flood the local gene pools with drones from more peaceful colonies, then we can all benefit from having healthier, more prolific, gentle bees. ... or we could go on in ignorance, destroying everything that even MIGHT be "partially AHB" and wonder why we're running low on honeybees.......


<edit>
Sorry sqkcrk, we were typing at the same time, didn't mean to look like I was directly incriminating you there (although that seems to be what it looks like now...:doh


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Paul McCarty said:


> I see the validity in that, as unsettling as it may be for some. What it means is that our bees will get a bit wilder and the AHB will get a bit more domesticated and eventually they will become the same, in some vague middle ground.


That has certainly been the hope since they first were introduced in South America decades ago. I have dealt with some of the Africanized bees of south Texas a few years back and as an experienced beekeeper found them almost unworkable, anyone who scoffs at them hasn't had the chance to actually experience what it is like to have so many bees pounding your veil that it is difficult to even carry on a conversation and they dont leave you alone until you are far from the hives. The interesting thing, though, is that they haven't migrated at all like most experts predicted. They have progressed quite rapidly through the dry arid areas of the southwest and have had very little impact on the more heavily bee populated areas of the gulf coast states. Perhaps it is because of the drone saturation of domestic hives but that flys in the face (pardon the pun) of the breeding advantages that have allowed their genetics to prevail in other areas.


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## RAFAEL/PR (Feb 23, 2012)

robherc said:


> I'm sorry, but exactly WHEN did AHB move into NY and SD??? I understand people from NM, TX, FL, MS, MO, OK, GA, AL, PR, etc. having strong opinions on AHB, we all have them, but NY and SD? When I lived in IN & had heard only rumors of "killer bees" I was concerned about them, but having never seen any I didn't consider myself an expert on them, or go around correcting & cajoling people who had first hand experience with them.
> That said, SOME AHB are mean, mean, MEAN; some are really quite gentle, maybe more are mean than in "normal" european bloodlines, but as has already been said in this thread, if we keep+breed the gentler ones & flood the local gene pools with drones from more peaceful colonies, then we can all benefit from having healthier, more prolific, gentle bees. ... or we could go on in ignorance, destroying everything that even MIGHT be "partially AHB" and wonder why we're running low on honeybees.......


nicely said, Robherc


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> Anyone who scoffs at them hasn't had the chance to actually experience what it is like to have so many bees pounding your veil that it is difficult to even carry on a conversation and they dont leave you alone until you are far from the hives. The interesting thing, though, is that they haven't migrated at all like most experts predicted. They have progressed quite rapidly through the dry arid areas of the southwest and have had very little impact on the more heavily bee populated areas of the gulf coast states.


I've done a cut-out on a HUGE, well-established AHB hive in a wall...it was quite interesting trying to avoid cutting those pipes while I was covered in so many angry bees that I quite literally looked like a statue (even worse, they found a couple "weak spots" in my suit...that HURT)! That said, I still don't think we need to go running around killing all AHB as "killer bees."
Also, about the migration thing, I think a lot of the failure to migrate into many areas can be attributed to their love of absconding...hard to make it through a longer/colder winter with only 1-2mos to build up after "flying the coop."


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

We have them in my region, but true AHB are really quite rare. The ferals show some traits, but are really variable on temperament. I have a hive I have long suspected has AHB genetics, but they really are not any meaner than my other hives. They are a bit more nervous on the comb, and fly in really adverse conditions (even at night) but they are swarmy as can be. The other side of it, they are darn hardy bees, if a bit temperamental. They may be some sort of hybrid, but they are nothing like the last cut-out I did where I was hit by 200 guards when I sat the ladder down near the hive entrance (which may or may not have been AHB, some ferals are just that way. It's why they survive).

A certain segment of the pest control industry wants us to be mortally afraid of them so they can kill bees for money, in my opinion. Whether justified or not.


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## RAFAEL/PR (Feb 23, 2012)

ok let take this to the next level , why do the people of Africa could take on pure African bee and we are having a hard time with the one that not pure African bees ? i have a friend in my face-book who from Kenya from Africa who is be the way a beekeeper to prove what im saying here his face book i ask permission if i could use his name and show everyone his pictures , he a real nice guy and he speak prefect English his name is Bokelo Samar and here is his face book he has alot of awesome picture 178 of them, just keep clicking at the picture to go to the next one , enjoy http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...01878580.26315.100000646045814&type=3&theater


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

It's because there are quite a few strains, and even breeds, in Africa. Some African bee lineage is even in the origional Buckfast bees, but a different African bee to the one that's causing all the problems.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

cool pics


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

jim lyon said:


> ... The interesting thing... is that they haven't migrated at all like most experts predicted. They have progressed quite rapidly through the dry arid areas of the southwest and have had very little impact on the more heavily bee populated areas of the gulf coast states...


Your right Jim. The dividing line seems to be the Sabine River between Texas and Louisiana. The Sabine River is not only the Texas-Louisiana border, but the Sabine is also the dividing line between the wet South East, and the arid South West. I heard somewhere that for every 15 miles one journey west from the Sabine River that the annual rain fall amount decreased 1 inch. The South West USA is more like the African Plains than either Tennessee or Vermont and as such looks like a better place to me for AHBs to put down roots.

Check out the precipitation map on this this link.
http://sites.lafayette.edu/egrs251-fa11-greywater/environmental-2/temperature-and-regions/
http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/precip.html
The above link may show this rain fall drop off clearer.
The only thing that keeps large areas of the old upper Mid West out of the green and hovering in the light blue is lake effect snow. I know better than to make wild guesses about the whether or is it weather? Anyway we may ultimately discover that Minnesota and the Dakotas are more AHB friendly than say Mobile or Seattle. So that means in eastern Washington state or Oregon, all bets are off.

I heard but I don't know how truthfully it is, that the Andes mountains say above 4,000 feet poses a little problem for AHB. I feel this is where the cold verses hot dividing line thing came to the forefront with “experts” long before AHBs first crossed the Rio Grand. But it may be the increased rain fall at higher altitudes that tends to knock AHBs' noses in the dirt. Before they crossed into Panama it seemed like it took forever for AHBs to slog and wade through the Amazon River Basin. After they dried out from that, it didn’t seem like it took long for them to show up in Vegas and LA.

All this means that future beekeepers may start looking for ways to cut down on their hives' ventilation.


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## RAFAEL/PR (Feb 23, 2012)

Paul McCarty said:


> Even "regular" bees can be hot. Hotter even than African. The only way to get rid of undesirable African traits is watering down their gene pool. Killing them off won't do it, nor will totally isolating the domestic bees. I have heard from old timers that our current bees are un-naturally tame compared to what they used to be like, and people have become used to this.


ok i want to use his quote because he brought up a good point. also i want to also add , Im new to beekeeping not new to bees , im 54 year old and in my younger days the bees where more aggressive compare to the bees of today , i had a friend one time who was working on his back yard and when he move a branch from a tree he was attack and was sting 28 times he lucky he was close to his back door to get inside his home or he would have gotten alot more hits by those bees,there other bee attack i know of and im talking about the 1980s and 1990s , before anyone hear of African bees the bees these days seen kind of Dopey , just look at you tube and see a lot of beekeeper with out no protection , you couldn't do that in the in the old days , i think if you speck to a old timer he could tell you the same thing im saying the bee today are too nice , and that might be there down fall, good for beekeeper bad genetic traits for bees because they not so protective against mite and other pest, to me the only way to get back that good stock is to get the good desirable African traits and leave the bad traits by selective breeding, it been done to other animals why not bees?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

robherc said:


> I'm sorry, but exactly WHEN did AHB move into NY and SD???
> 
> 
> <edit>
> Sorry sqkcrk, we were typing at the same time, didn't mean to look like I was directly incriminating you there (although that seems to be what it looks like now...:doh


No problem.

AHB have not "moved into" NY, or even TN. This Thread is fraught w/ misunderstanding. AHB charecteristics/genetics are/have shown up in many7 States where actual full blown AHB do not naturally exist. There are AHBs and Honeybees which are partially AHB. I can't explain this satisfactorily. Someone should do some research and display it here.

It is entirely possible that TN authorities have found feral bees w/ AHB characteristics or even true AHB, but one case does not mean an established population.

Let cooler heads prevail.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

RAFAEL/PR said:


> ok let take this to the next level , why do the people of Africa could take on pure African bee and we are having a hard time with the one that not pure African bees ?


AHBs are not African bees, they are a hybrid. They are not apis mellifera scutellata, they are something else.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

http://nationalatlas.gov/articles/biology/a_bees.html
Here is a pretty good explanation of what is going on genetically. I think, though, it is fair to say that there hasn't been the invasion into our domestic genetics that was expected by most experts a few years back. I will stand by my earlier post, though, that it is wise to respect the threat of AHB. Increasingly we have to keep bees closer and closer to people's homes and the prudent beekeeper should does his best to think of the safety of others.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

This has turned into an interesting thread. It has caused me to do a bit of reading, and according to research from Texas A&M, the state of Texas is saturated with AHBs. The greater concentration of them is in South and West Texas as a result of their migration route. As time goes by, they are becoming less aggressive. Their sting is no more poisonous that other bees. Their aggression and determination separate them from other bees. They attack in much greater numbers and follow their quarry much longer distances, sometimes up to a mile. The paper also stated that it would take 1,500 stings to kill a normal sized man. One or two people per year are killed by AHBs in the US. Since bees fly from 12 to 15 miles per hour, you cannot out run them, at least not for long. One has to get into a sealed container, house, car, etc. 

Although their aggression is diminishing as they spread north, these bees are much more aggressive than domestic bees. From my one year of bee experience and study of bees, it appears that as a general rule aggressive bees are more resistant to mites. Maybe in the long haul, the AHB will be good for our domestic genetics.

Here’s the deal. If one is willing to put up with super aggressive bees, bees that swarm out at you like something from a science fiction movie, then AHB may be a good thing. As always, I am a hobbyist, and working bees is fun. I’m not going to kill a hive of AHB, but I will breed it down or move it from my apiary. In the end, it has to be fun. I think there are others that agree with me.


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## RAFAEL/PR (Feb 23, 2012)

well one thing for sure as a New Yorker, who move to P.R. in 2007 , P.R. is one lucky Island ,the AHBs here move in around 2004 The Island is only 100 by 20 miles long , not much to spread out and for the AHBs to have there genetic traits water down, so something difference happen here, just con sister us lucky, another fellow beekeeper who is also a member of this forum has the same type of Bees in Honuras this is part of his chat with me and he Quote:
"Luckily the africanized bees are very hardy so at least I don't have to deal with or worry about diseases and pests like beekeepers back in the States. I worked for a commercial beekeeper in Wisconsin for several years and that was one of his main worries--actually a constant worry. Africanized bees can be ornery but not having to treat for diseases or worry about losing hives to mites make it more tolerable."
So there is something good if you have the good type of Africanized bee they should not be wipe out , but study more and see if we could get those bad genes out of them. I hope that this forum could make a section on people who keep and raise Africanize so we could keep a tab on each other findings not spead out all over the fourm , it real good infor for all, that everything on keeping Africanize bees is on one section and easy to find, just my $0.02


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## Littlestinger (Apr 21, 2011)

Cool pics. Of course that guy isnt going to be scared of working killer bees, he has a pet cheetah!


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> AHBs are not African bees, they are a hybrid. They are not apis mellifera scutellata, they are something else.


Good post sqkcrk.. you ate on target. This should have not been released as 17 percent is NOT considered anything to report by ahb standards. I have never been impressed by John Skinner at UT. Mike their state apiarist worked under Skinner at UT AND SHOULD HAVE NEVER RELEASED THIS. It only serves to scare the public...big stupid mistake! Now if it was 75 or 90 percent it would be differant


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## Runswithbees (Feb 1, 2012)

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...ome-beekeepers-believe-killer-bees-are-fraud/


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

I made some calls and here is the scoop! Remember my opinion on john Skinner and the state apiarist! The test that was run was the fabis test using wing measurements. It is a fast field test..it gives only a PERCENTAGE OF PROBABILITY!!! SO LADIES AND GENTLEMEN there is a 17 percent chance that the bees had africanized genes or a 83 percent chance they had none!!! How smart are these people. Its obvious they don't have a clue about what they are talking about! No genetic testing was done. Genetic test will say one of four things...afranized , European, European with some africanized traits or African with European traits. The big news release that may cause Some beekeeper to loose a yard or worse because of public panic was a huge blunder that should cause someone to loose their job! There was a 17 percent chance that the bee had some African genes...83 percent chance that it had NO AFRICANIZED genes! What is was .....Was a old mean bee that came over on the Mayflower!! What a Mess!


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## Runswithbees (Feb 1, 2012)

People using small cell better watch their butts. The FABIS test will cause all bees on small cell to test positive for Africanized genes. I guess if they actually did a genetic test, they would simply find the bee was Apis Mellifera. Bees are bees! I hate the AHB scare tactic propaganda. It is unique to U.S.A. In all reality, it is a war on our honeybees. People all over the rest of the world aren't afraid the African genetics will migrate to them. Never forget the Romans traded honeybees with Egypt and other parts of Africa forever! What is wrong with us? There is really no proof that AM Mellifera was not already in the Northern Hemisphere, only proof that AM Lingustica was brought over in 1857. I wish beekeepers could unite in defense of the honeybees.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

"I wish beekeepers could unite in defense of the honeybees." I don't know any beekeepers on a personal basis, but I don't believe there is a beekeeper on this forum that won't unite with you to defend bees.

The news media exploits sensationalism in all its reporting. We never have a cold front or wet front move through our area without horrendous warnings of hail and possible tornadoes. They do happen. I'm 73 years old, and I had my first hail damage last year. The news media has become dramatic about all their reporting. Don't wait for them to tell the truth about AHB.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Bees are bees. Some are mean, some are not. That is a fact. It is also a fact, that a certain demographic stands to profit from killing ALL bees.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Paul McCarty said:


> Bees are bees. Some are mean, some are not. That is a fact. It is also a fact, that a certain demographic stands to profit from killing ALL bees.


What demographic?


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

exterminators ... for them the more fear the better, 'cuz ppl are willing to pay them more


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

robherc said:


> exterminators ... for them the more fear the better, 'cuz ppl are willing to pay them more


Especially in Texas, where beekeepers are not allowed to charge for removals from what I understand. Then it steers people to the petrochem/exterminator industry.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Paul McCarty said:


> Especially in Texas, where beekeepers are not allowed to charge for removals from what I understand.


I'm a beek, and I can charge for removals...as can anyone else who sends a completed application to the state along with the $35 licensing fee....
and an "intrastate" application (with another $35 fee) for moving hives to/from the counties you're performing removals in, and that you have apiaries in.

Might not be the most efficient, but you *can* do it.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Really, I always heard it was against the law. Learn something new everyday. 

Not many regs on it where I live. Most laws do not kick in unless you reach 25 hives or more in one location. The only restiction on removals that I know of is paying gross receipts tax if you charge for the service of removing comb and honey. I believe rounding up bees is considered in the same catagory as livestock and is exempt. Most agriculture in this state (NM) is exempt from a lot of business restictions and taxes.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

According to Dewey Caron, real AHB are not really hybrids, but are actually pure African bees. There are a number of reasons why AHB, where more suited for the environment, completly take over an area. The primary factors are that: (1) AHB will actually take over established EHB hives by killing the EHB queen; (2) AHB drones and queens fly to mate a different times of the day; (3) AHB queens actually emerge faster than EHB queens and then kill any EHB queen cells in the hive.

However, there are transition areas where AHB and EHB are both suited to the environment, and hybridization can occur there. 

Whether AHB or EHB are most suited to a particular place appears to involve a combination of temperature and rainfall. AHB do better where it is warmer and drier. AHB really like places where there is a wet season and a dry season. 

I live right on the current frontier of AHB expansion. Based on the pace of the spread, which has slowed way down, I think we may end up being a transition area, where hives can be anywhere from really gentle to really hot. I can tell you that I have worked a few hives, which had requeened themselves with AHB genes, and they are really different acting bees. The main difference is that the bees are hotter and run around on the comb much more.

If Puerto Rico has gentle AHB, then I sure wish the folks at the Bee Lab in Louisiana would put some effort into importing those AHB strains. If AHB are going to take over an area (and they do have their advantages where they are fit to live) it would be nice to have some gentler AHBs. 

My current problem is that I am having trouble with hot hives when they requeen themselves. Also, if I catch swarms in the middle of Tulsa, they tend to be pretty hot. Being an urban beekeeper, hot bees won't work for me.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I have no doubt the feral bees in my area have hybridization going on, not that it really matters. It just makes them wilder and a bit less predictable - like any wild animal. Not sure how this is different than the old AMM bees. Where I live gets really cold in Winter, and they say it kills the pure strain. You end up treating any removal or swarm as wild and hot until you know otherwise.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Runswithbees said:


> People all over the rest of the world aren't afraid the African genetics will migrate to them.


Yes they are.


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

I feel like I'm on the front line of AHB's here in Florida. I was told a swarm that was caught only 20 miles from my bee yard tested over 75% AHB but it never made the local news and another swarm in the area tested at 45%. I monitor my hives for aggression and so far have only requeened one in the last few years. I prefer not to have the state check my hives but they will do it for free if asked. Florida is consitered a "hot" state which is why swarm collecting is frowned upon although just about every beek I know in the area has swarm traps out this year. The state laws allow any registered bee keeper to perform cutouts but only exterminators can kill a feral hive. 
Refresh my memory about AHB's, weren't they brought into South America in the late 50's as a new gene source to mix with the EHB's. The idea was to produce a bee that had an increased resistance to diseases and pests. Before any of the initial tests were performed 52 AHB queens were released by accident in Brazil, the rest has been history in the making. Except for the aggression found in AHB's it looks like the experiment is actually working. I don't know what the "safe" level is for AHB gentic material but as long as there is a percentage of AHB gentics in the feral population you will always have a chance of getting a hot hive. I'm waiting for some Russians to get into the AHB mix as well.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Eurpoean bees did not do well in tropical South America. In fact, they did not naturally reproduce or swarm there. They brought over AHB hoping to find a good tropical bee for a tropical climate.

Other than the agression issues, AHB have been a huge agricultural success for central and south america. They work much better than the EHB did for making honey and especially pollination.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I wonder if the AHB hybrids are much different than the original feral bee as adapted to my desert climate. Bees out here have pretty much always been hot from what I understand.


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## jredburn (Feb 25, 2012)

Back in the 1850's a man by the name of Langstroth wrote a book on how to make hives. He also mentions very aggressive bees. In the 1900+ we had German Black bees that were very aggressive. In the 50's a man by the name of Andy Nachbaur wrote about taking 30 hives of gentle bees from CA to the Texas/Arzion/Mexico boarder. In 30 days they went from being worked in shirt sleeves and baseball hats to bees that would eat the chrome off the handle of the truck before they could get suited up.
So aggressive bees have been here a long time.
Anybody want to guess how many confirmed deaths have occurred in Florida since the AHB got here?
One.
He was an old man that could not run, got stung 50 times (not 5000) and was hypo allergic. One sting would have killed him.

So where I am going is that there are AHB and they can be aggressive and they are here to stay. Trying to kill them all is a fools errand.
If you get a hot hive, requeen and go on. Hot hives are the reason we have smokers, veils, suits etc.
We have hybrids to contend with, we need to drop the "killer bee" mentally
Just my opinion.
Joe


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Totally agree with Jredburn. People think this is something new.


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## HEV261 (Jan 2, 2010)

Rick 1456 said:


> Wonder how they got there? More to this story IMHO.


I didn't read or hear anything in news about it but we had our beekeeper meeting the other nite here in jackson co. al. had state inspector to talk he said they found some in north al. some one went to tx bought an old tractor to restore and got home found bees got the inspector test showed there were afb.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

"some one went to tx bought an old tractor to restore and got home found bees got the inspector test showed there were afb."

This is the second such post. Now, for the last time, we'uns in Texas don't want you interlopers hauling off our tame bees. Don't make us come get them back.


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## RAFAEL/PR (Feb 23, 2012)

lazy shooter said:


> "some one went to tx bought an old tractor to restore and got home found bees got the inspector test showed there were afb."
> 
> This is the second such post. Now, for the last time, we'uns in Texas don't want you interlopers hauling off our tame bees. Don't make us come get them back.


ROTF, lol, good one!


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

:lpf:


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## oklabizznessman (Oct 24, 2011)

LOL I just was reading these post on AHB when I glanced over at yahoo and thought I saw this!! 'LARGE SWARM CAUSES MAN TO DROWN" OH NO LOOK OUT FOR THE AFRICANIZED SWANS THEY ARE KILLERS!!!

http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blog...-drowning-120835237--abc-news-topstories.html


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

You know, AHB isn't big enough news anymore...now it's time for the Killer SouthAmericanized (or maybe CentralAsianized?) swans! :lpf


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## oklabizznessman (Oct 24, 2011)

"some one went to tx bought an old tractor to restore and got home found bees got the inspector test showed there were afb."

The problem I have with this is did the start the tractor.... did they load the tractor.....no bee stings while doing this??????
Sometimes I think inspectors are government employees trying to impress someone with their importance!!!!
One more thought " If you yankees think you don't have AHB genetics can't think of of a comment just shaking my head.' They've been selling bees and hauling bees out of Texas with those genetics for how long now???? Gracious sakes alive!!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yankees? I prefer the term Northern Americans, thank you. You don't see any of us callin' y'all Johnny Rebs, do ya?


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Yankees? I prefer the term *Northern Americans*, thank you. You don't see any of us callin' y'all Johnny Rebs, do ya?


OK, well, that encompasses Northern Mexico, all of the USA (except HI), and all of Canada...lol
Maybe Northern North Americans? (though that'd still be mostly AK & Can)...
...although I will agree that "Yankees" isn't a very appropriate term, as that's what the British called ALL Americans around the Revolutionary period...don't you just love how mixed up we Americans make things (BTW, I'm a transplant from NE Ohio...so what's that make me)? :lpf:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A feriner. I was a forigner when I lived in NC, NY, WVA, VA, and now NY again, having grown up in MD. South Carolinians like me because I go home and don't try to tell them how to live or treat others. None of them refered to me as a Yankee. Not to my face anyway. They like the money I spend there. 

Mexicans from Mexico aren't Americans. Canadians from Canada aren't Americans. I wrote NorthERN American, not North American. It's not my fault we all live on the North American Continent.

I hope you know I'm joshin' ya.

Peez.

I hope


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

No Mark, if he was thinking Yanks and Rebs, he'd have called you a "**** Yankee." He was using the generic insult coined by the Brits and adopted with pride by the Patriots, e.g. "Yankee Doodle went to town..." 
Regards,
Steven


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm sure if a Brit called a Southerner a Yankee, he'd get corrected right quick. Some would anyway. I'm sure he was refering to folks from up North.

I thought Yankee Doodle was composed by Colonists refering to fops in London. But I could be mistaken. The tune is a Fife and Drum Corp standard from 18th Century England.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

robherc said:


> ...although I will agree that "Yankees" isn't a very appropriate term, as that's what the British called ALL Americans around the Revolutionary period..


And they still do, last time I was hanging out with some Brits anyway. Even saw a Canadian get called a Yank. Didn't please him very much LOL.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WW2 holdover.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

robherc said:


> Americans around the Revolutionary period...don't you just love how mixed up we Americans make things (BTW, I'm a transplant from NE Ohio...so what's that make me)? :lpf:


That makes you a D***** Yankee.... you came south and never went home, like a polite yankee.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Mexicans from Mexico aren't Americans.


They vehemently insist they are!


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

It seems between the populaces of the eastern half of the US that there is some concern and mild animosity between “Yankees” and “southerners or rebels.” East Texas fits into the southern states as it has the same look and feel (big trees, hills and humidity galore.” East Texas is east of I-35 and north of Houston. East Texas is the south.

My heritage is West Texas. We are not considered part of the south nor the west. It seems that the “great western states” start with New Mexico. As such we are not much into the Yankee/Southern thing. I don’t care about being called a rebel or a yankee. On a casual basis, call me Lazy or Shooter, or formally Mr. Lazy Shooter.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

t: Please get back on track.


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## Beev (Jul 16, 2011)

Mike Studer, the state apiarist spoke at our local club meeting tonight and gave an account of what happened with that hive. The bees were field tested, and then a sample was sent to a lab for confirmation, and were actually 23% AHB. The bees were were shipped in a package last spring, and were reported as more or less normal during the season, then became a little aggressive in the fall. (about normal) Then this spring when he opened the hive the first time, they bombed him. A couple of weeks later he opened the hive again, and someone watching from a kitchen window said that he popped the top and was immediately engulfed in a black cloud. The beek had to literally wipe the bees from his veil to see good enough to get to his truck, and then drive two miles to get clear. The colony was destroyed to prevent the genetics from escaping in a swarm. Seems to me that some of the genetics probably escaped in last years drones though.


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## RAFAEL/PR (Feb 23, 2012)

Barry said:


> t: Please get back on track.


yes i totally agree! how did we get off track on this topic on AHB ?
this thread is long and it come to show you the forum need a section on those who have and raising AHB we could learn alot from each other


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