# An oxalic vaporizer that WORKS in 30 sec



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Sure when I needed to. And the device is reasonably price.
But at the moment I do not treat at all.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

I'd be interested in one myself. What kind of price and how soon can it be made. Send me a PM.


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## kramerbryan (Oct 30, 2013)

pm me too please,


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Sure


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## EasternIowaBees (May 6, 2013)

I would be interested. How much does it cost?


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## Swiftwisdom (Dec 9, 2013)

Count me in..please PM me with the pertinent info.


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## T.Smith (Aug 26, 2009)

Pm me info too. If be interested


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I am interested, too.

But, I wonder how well it really works and whether it is affordable for a hobbyist like myself.


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## casper_zip (Apr 16, 2010)

Keep ALL of us posted. I would think all would be interested. I just bought an expensive one.

Best.
casper_zip


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Not enough info. time is not the highest thing on my list. Cost is more of a concern. I see the way to faster treatment is multiple vaporizers.


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## Ray4852 (May 27, 2011)

A vaporizer that can do a hive in 30 seconds is going to be expensive. The small beekeeper like myself. The varrox is a better option. 165 for varrox, and 3lbs of oxalic acid from ebay, will last most hobbies the rest of their life.


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## Davers (Aug 6, 2014)

I also am interested. Just about ready to buy one. [email protected]


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## rgus (Aug 31, 2014)

Add me to your list please.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I had plans to order a vaporizer today. 

You may email information to me directly if you wish to avoid public release. My email is david at segrestrealty.com

I will need shipment before next weekend, (Oct something)


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

David, you will regret posting that e-mail. You should edit it to read david(at)segrestrealty.com to avoid harvesting by bots.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Daniel Y said:


> David, you will regret posting that e-mail. You should edit it to read david(at)segrestrealty.com to avoid harvesting by bots.


I will. Thank you.


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## queenbee1 (Oct 4, 2013)

It works 100% of the time. My husband uses his on our 400 hives and it's the easiest thing on his beekeeping to do list now.


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## queenbee1 (Oct 4, 2013)

The reason why my husband made this unit was because it was either the varrox or a unit he found for a ridiculous amount and even than you had to buy an extra part to it. Were not looking to make these things a business. Basically, it catches people's attention as soon as they see or hear about it so I thought if it would help someone like it helped my husband, why not?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

It's really hard to tell without additional info/picture/price. How do you plan to disseminate this info?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

queenbee1 said:


> Were not looking to make these things a business.


Then why are you applying for a patent?


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## queenbee1 (Oct 4, 2013)

I totally get it! I will post a video. Like I said before though, I don't want to show pictures before we decide 100 with the patent. There's no guarantee that someone won't start making this thier business! Basically it's a handheld device (weighs maybe 20 lbs??) and uses a store bought propane tank.

"edited I thought it was lighter than 20 lbs but just asked hubby


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## smarrbeeman (Jul 24, 2013)

Add me to your list...thanks


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

You betcha beeks will want your device! 30seconds vs the rest of the devices out there and uses a propane bottle instead of a 12V battery!!
Wow!! Set up the plans through a website with a download paid function.


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## queenbee1 (Oct 4, 2013)

Because we have been advised to do so from people who have seen it work. And It's not 100% that we will but until We decide for sure...


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## queenbee1 (Oct 4, 2013)

Please explain. Lol. I'm not completely getting it. So like a blueprint and have people pay to see the design, parts needed, ect and build thier own? That's an idea


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Add me to the list please.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Queenbee1

A word to the wise. Do not show or sell you device UNTIL you decide whether you are going to patent and sell the vaporizer. Your husband may (or may not..see JW's post) have a fine invention but you'd lose it all to someone else who would take it and make it their own. Find a patent atty and let them advise you.....


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

X2 snl !!! There's always someone out there willing to take an idea and run with it, specially if they have the drawings to go with it.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Wood bleach is Oxalic dihydrate. Two molecules of water are loosely bound into the Oxalic chain.

The bleach decomposes and bubbles when heated -- this is the water boiling off. Water has an enormous heat of enthalpy, which lowers the composition temperature during its phase change.

Only after the water boils off does the OA vaporize (because only then is the critical phase change temperature reached (247 F). The vaporization needs to kept below a critical temperature to avoid decomposing the OA into Formic acid like fragments. The Formic in turn forms its conjugate base in the presence of moisture, defeating the acidification of the hive.

Any device could speed up the process of sublimation by adding additional heat, but this would risk decomposing the OA in an uncontrolled fashion. The OA process works best with heat held below the point of decomposition of OA into molecular fragments. The OA when cooled in the hive recrystallizes into minute particles. I do not know if the recrystallization is a mechanical poison, or simply disperses the OA broadly and lenghtens its bio-availibility. The equal effectiveness of the other small organic acids (Lactic, formic, acetic, and ascorbic) argues that simple pH adjustment is the critical function. 


One could spread out the OA into a single layer over a larger area and boil off the H20 simultaneously rather than clumped in a teaspoon. A device that is dinner plate sized, thin and evenly heated would work well, but might have power consumption issues.

One could also hold the OA in a reaction chamber that is continuously heated, and add (dribble) additional OA-dihydrate into it, spreading the dehydration into a continuous event. Metering dosage would be more difficult in a continuous rather than bulk reaction.


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## queenbee1 (Oct 4, 2013)

Snl thank you for understanding! I think i will look for an atty today and see what i come up with. I was wanting to know the interest level more than anything on here. So far almost every beekeeper that has seen it has ended up asking for one. And for those who are asking about the price, I know I sound unsure but we have been giving these to people at our cost with nothing for labor so we never even thought of putting a price on them.


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

JWChestnut,
Thanks for a great explanation of the transformation of OA into vapor. I have search the net trying to understand the sublimation process and your explanation is the most clear.
Thanks!


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

queenbee1 said:


> Please explain. Lol. I'm not completely getting it. So like a blueprint and have people pay to see the design, parts needed, ect and build thier own? That's an idea


Yes, FatBeeMan did that with his hive top feeder. I bought them in PDF style with pictures and dimensions and full explanations.
Paid once and can download them a max of 3 times. Paypal or CC. $6.00 

If someone wants that bad to take your hubbys design and try and sell them and make more profit when anyone and everyone can get the plans to DIY than let em. Lots more satisfaction in DIY especially for under 10 BUCKS than someone really believing they will get a far superior product because it comes in a nice package or box and you pay over 100.00 for 10.00 of parts and assembly and shipping costs than I say be my guest. 

The interest is out here whatever route you and your hubby will take.


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## Penzi (Jan 17, 2013)

Add me to your list thanks


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## divingmikeboats (May 23, 2014)

Please keep me on the list. My homemade vap cooks too many bees.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

mgstei1 said:


> If someone wants that bad to take your hubbys design and try and sell them and make more profit when anyone and everyone can get the plans to DIY than let em.


Really??? You really think selling DIY plans will net more profit than selling a produced product? If that were the case, beekeeping businesses (and many, many others) ...........would be out of business and as we know, they are not......


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

snl said:


> Really??? You really think selling DIY plans will net more profit than selling a produced product? If that were the case, beekeeping businesses (and many, many others) ...........would be out of business and as we know, they are not......


There are already vaporizers on the market and way overpriced IMHO.Then a DIY that works as good or better and lower in costs and with no importing, factory costs, materials, and labor, shipping, low market numbers(# of beeks) and certainly less problems and legal issues. With only a PDF and a website to do the selling, why not ?
On the other hand, more products out there that do the same will be like a watch or calculator or electronic devices and bring about lower pricing.
Competition always lowers the prices.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

mgstei1 said:


> With only a PDF and a website to do the selling, why not ?


Because you or others will give (or split the cost of the PDF) with or to others and where does that leave the seller? I'll tell you............ screwed!

As far as way overpriced vaporizers....... I see none that are "way overpriced" as you say. You have labor,rent, tool costs, materials, insurance, mailing, packaging, heath insurance, advertising and a profit....... I'd say they are reasonably priced.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I find it interesting that *FREE * downloadable plans in .PDF format are available for virtually _every _piece of Lang style beekeeping equipment at the _Build-It-Yourself_ area, and yet the various beekeeping supply companies still do a booming business selling hive equipment. 

There seems to be a lot more involved than simply the availability of plans.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I find it interesting that *FREE * downloadable plans in .PDF format are available for virtually _every _piece of Lang style beekeeping equipment at the _Build-It-Yourself_ area, and yet the various beekeeping supply companies still do a booming business selling hive equipment.
> 
> There seems to be a lot more involved than simply the availability of plans.


yep :thumbsup: I buy plans at times just to see how things work.


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

snl said:


> Because you or others will give (or split the cost of the PDF) with or to others and where does that leave the seller? I'll tell you............ screwed!
> 
> As far as way overpriced vaporizers....... I see none that are "way overpriced" as you say. You have labor,rent, tool costs, materials, insurance, mailing, packaging, heath insurance, advertising and a profit....... I'd say they are reasonably priced.


You hit the nail on the head!!! That's the reason the vaporizers are so expensive!!
The PDF gave me satisfaction in making my own stuff as do wooden ware plans that are available. Somewhere, somebody, can always improve on anything electrical or mechanical.
$$$ ain't everything but helping other beeks and new beeks is what its all about to keep the bees here with us and our grandkids.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I find it interesting that *FREE * downloadable plans in .PDF format are available for virtually _every _piece of Lang style beekeeping equipment...................


That's all true Graham, but I can't see a "mom & pop" operation (no disrespect intended) benefiting from selling their invention going the PDF route. I can see them losing out on many a potential sale by those who will "share" their PDF downloads ....


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

mgstei1 said:


> You hit the nail on the head!!! That's the reason the vaporizers are so expensive!!


So you say. OAV is CHEAP (even after factoring in the initial cost of the vaporizer)...... spread the cost of the vaporizer out over the many times you will use it and I believe you'll find, it's one of the cheapest (if not the cheapest) means of treating for mites.........

You're correct, $$$ "ain't everything" but those who take the business risks, put their $$$ and "sweat equity" into a business should have rewards for their efforts. That's a big part of what the US is all about....


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Those who think current vaporizer models are expensive perhaps should should set up their own manufacturing & sales operation to capture all that "_excess profit_" from the current vendors! 

Oh wait ...  ... that might be a _very expen$ive lesson_ in how business _actually _works. 

--------------------------

Here is the competition for a _fast _vaporizing system:

http://vmvaporizer.com/index.html
They claim a capability of treating 300 hives per hour.


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## phersbees (Mar 28, 2014)

vaporizer are easy to make.mill a tray out of aluminum drill a hole or two put in a glow plug or two from a diesel engine. pos on glow plug ground on aluminum body. put a handle on it your done. 

aluminum scrap= free
used glow plug from shop= free
handle made from old grill spatula=free
wire I found off old cord=free
had to buy alligator clips=2.56 free shipping ebay
I run it off a deep cycle boat battery, at full charge it take 2-3 mins( that's how long I wait) but I have 25 hives so that 75mins to treat


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

snl said:


> Queenbee1
> 
> A word to the wise. Do not show or sell you device UNTIL you decide whether you are going to patent and sell the vaporizer. Your husband may (or may not..see JW's post) have a fine invention but you'd lose it all to someone else who would take it and make it their own. Find a patent atty and let them advise you.....


Well said SNL, Queenbee1, take your time, keep it to yourself, we can wait for your patent. Good luck.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Not dispensing legal advice, but:

Once an invention is used for what it is designed for (except experimentation for further improvement of the design), sold, or offered for sale, a 1-year clock starts ticking where a patent application must be field within that 1-year time period. No extensions are possible. Patent attorneys call this the "chop your head off" deadline.

Also, only the inventor can file for a patent on his invention. Meaning, if someone copies a pre-existing design done by someone else, i.e. doesn't invent it himself, he can not patent it.

The time to get a patent in most technology fields is about 3 years.

The cost to patent a simple invention which is easy to patent is $5000 - $10,000. The cost goes up from there for a more complex invention and/or more complicated patenting process. Although, the inventor can do the patent process himself, to save most of those costs. But that is like the accused defending himself in court ("fool for a client," etc.).


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## Bob Anderson (Jun 13, 2014)

To add a bit to JWChestnut's comments. OA sublimates within a particular temperature range and decomposes at higher temperatures. How are you going to show that your vaporizer sublimates the OA and doesn't decompose it? One reason the current vaporizers are slow is because they are designed to control the sublimation process with a reasonable energy input. A high energy input may be faster but less controlled and result in decomposition. How are you going to determine this so that you know your device is effective for its intended purpose?


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

By "works" do you mean it has 100% sublimation in 30 seconds? How hot does it get? Are fumes given off as one moves from hive to hive?

If you are selling it people will need to know what it looks like, how it works, what it costs and if it's' function is guaranteed.

Please post this information for all to see. 30 seconds per hive is very interesting.



queenbee1 said:


> It works 100% of the time. My husband uses his on our 400 hives and it's the easiest thing on his beekeeping to do list now.


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

phersbees said:


> vaporizer are easy to make.mill a tray out of aluminum drill a hole or two put in a glow plug or two from a diesel engine. pos on glow plug ground on aluminum body. put a handle on it your done.
> 
> aluminum scrap= free
> used glow plug from shop= free
> ...


That's what I am talking about!! It aint rocket science. Someone somewhere is making a killing!! 3 yrs for a patent aint worth the wait or the costs. And I would almost bet that someone else will come up with better gear from here on out with more using OA on the mites.
And,
"Nobody's so poor that somebody can't get rich screwing 'em."


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

People that want to make their own will. That is not the issue. the issue is that many don't. People that are in a better position to not only manufacture but primarily market an idea will. I know this first hand. And they do it by supplying a market you could not possibly keep up with. I started making and selling the parts for 50 Cal BMG pen. made from real bullet parts. A company called Penn State Industries came along saw it and now manufactures them b the thousand. but the are not made from real parts. they still sell. They sell in numbers I would not even want to make them in. I still get calls for mine. You can have a few authentic ones or a whole hand full of knock offs. And no patent would have protected me. How to do it does. It is not easy and it is very expensive to get suet up to make them. Focus on quality and you have 99.9% of all others beat. Companies must have volume.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

phersbees said:


> vaporizer are easy to make.mill a tray out of aluminum drill a hole or two put in a glow plug or two from a diesel engine. pos on glow plug ground on aluminum body. put a handle on it your done.
> 
> aluminum scrap= free
> used glow plug from shop= free
> ...



Not a lot of people have access to a machine shop. It's more like this: 

3" x 4" x 1" thick aluminum bar = $5 (scrap bin at Metal by the Foot)
2 glow plugs from Amazon = $18
handle made from old grill spatula = free
20' of 10-gauge wire from Home Depot = $12
2 Alligator clips (Autozone) = $2.56
1 deep cycle marine battery that was in my garage, but it was most definitely not free when I bought it = $70

So that is about $40 for the vaporizer and $70 to power it, which is still very cheap to build yourself. However, my DIY is a little shoddy and I would expect a well manufactured model would cost 2 to 3 times that. I also dont think about the cost of a vaporizer on a per use treatment, I measure cost savings by the number of hives that I save each year. IOW, if a save just 2 hives a year, that is a $400 to $250 savings. I am not that good at accounting, but I think that equates to a profit the first year that I used it.


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## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

There is a youtube video out there from someone on the board using a DIY vaporizer. He takes a copper tube with a small fitting on the end that he puts the oxalic in. He also puts a shim (small board) on the hive with a hole in it. The hive is completely closed up. He heats up the oxalic in the copper pipe with a blow torch (until it vaporizes) and puts it the hole. It takes longer than 30 seconds. I have never tried it so I cannot say how it work. Looks simple and very cheap.


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## queenbee1 (Oct 4, 2013)

Thank you everyone for your replies and interest. I shall keep you posted once we have more info about the route we choose to take. I think this will be something we will be working on over this winter and hopefully have a more definite date for public sale in the spring or summer of next year. Once again, thank you everyone for your advice and suggestions. We have read and thought about each one (even though now I noticed that I have been replying to specific people in the wrong spots)


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Hey Queen Bee,

I was really interested in your husband's vaporizer; but my bees need to be treated. I had to order a vaporizer already. I would still be interested in the information on your husband's vaporizer.


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## KiwiMana (Oct 23, 2009)

We are keen to find our more information, we sell beekeeping supplies and have had a few questions about such a product. What does it use for a heat source? Gas power etc?

Would love to find our more if you are able to export to New Zealand?

Thanks....Gary


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## KiwiMana (Oct 23, 2009)

Yes indeed, would love to find out more information. We sell Beekeeping supplies and have had a few customers ask about such a product....Gary


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

Tagging, II would keep your plans to your self, there is something about this business that lots of people seem to think its a crime to make money.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Bob Anderson said:


> To add a bit to JWChestnut's comments. OA sublimates within a particular temperature range and decomposes at higher temperatures. How are you going to show that your vaporizer sublimates the OA and doesn't decompose it? One reason the current vaporizers are slow is because they are designed to control the sublimation process with a reasonable energy input. A high energy input may be faster but less controlled and result in decomposition. How are you going to determine this so that you know your device is effective for its intended purpose?


 it won't get any hotter than its boiling point unless it's in a pressurized vessel


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

At this point we are only guessing about how the heat might be applied to the oxalic acid. Both Bob Anderson and Harley Craig could be correct. If you assume the powder is evaporated from a hot pan into the cooler air in the hive then Harley's projection about reaching breakdown temperature is correct. On the other hand if the OA powder is injected into a hot gas (air) stream with a temperature of say 5 or 600 deg. F. or eve more, it certainly could attain breakdown temperatures.

If the heat is applied to a pan as in the simple vaporizers we are familiar with, then the sublimated OA vapor starts to cool as soon as it moves away from the heat source. With surface contact or radiant transfer a boiled off gas can be superheated beyond the temperature of evaporation without the need of any additional pressurization.

Even without reaching breakdown temperature factor I dont think it would be desirable to blow volumes of hot air into the hive.


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## CBoggs (Jun 20, 2014)

I would also be interested when more details are available.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

snl said:


> That's all true Graham, but I can't see a "mom & pop" operation (no disrespect intended) benefiting from selling their invention going the PDF route. I can see them losing out on many a potential sale by those who will "share" their PDF downloads ....


You can research just such an issue. In regard to say a book or magazine. it is very common to have loss of sales due to this very reason ti is called the reread factor. You can easily track the distribution of any magazine simply by looking at subscriptions. But what is the total readership? that is harder to come by. and it includes among other things the reread factor. What about a magazine setting in a doctors waiting room? What about quotes that get printed in other publications? It gets very hard to track. but typically even in not so popular publications the reread can run 30%. And it remains just about that across the board. In some cases reread is highly desirable like a not for profit publication. in others it is a cost you must factor into your price.

Books tend to be even worse given you have entire business that seek to locate old books and reselling them. recycling them to potential new customers. ti is so bad with a book that books basically have a life span. You are only going to sell enough of them to satisfy the market. then those books are going to float around out there and keep the market satisfied. Still this passing around of books is only a percentage of all books printed. The same woudl be true of DIY plans and drawings.

There are even better ways to prevent copying of plans and drawings. simply print them in non conventional sizes. A person would then have to have access to a plotter for exampel to print a copy. And if it is copy written it makes it even harder to find the scanner and plotter that can be used. 

In all you can look at the reasons to do something or you can look at the reasons not to. they are both there to see in abundance. You only need one way to do it that works. the rest is just noise.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Harley Craig said:


> it won't get any hotter than its boiling point unless it's in a pressurized vessel


Or until the water boils off.


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## queenbee1 (Oct 4, 2013)

The part where the vapors come out (going in the hive) is bearly warm( you can touch it at all times when using the device) So not too worried about the OA getting too hot.


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## BudsBees (Mar 10, 2013)

I build and sell Oxalic acid vaporizers to control mites in your hives. Very effective and
safe for bees and brood. Very cost efficient also. Comes with some oxalic acid. Also includes measuring cup and instructions


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

WBVC said:


> 30 seconds per hive is very interesting.


The Sublimox takes only 25 seconds or less per hive, thermostatically controlled, continuous treatment, can be bought from Italy or France among other places. Very simple and could be easily made with readily available components.

http://www.icko-apiculture.com/fr/sublimox.html

http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...LFO&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

The Sublimox looks interesting but it would cost more than $500, plus shipping and possibly customs duty.

Yowza!

Enj.


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