# Making Landing boards



## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

I usually make my own landing boards. However, I've run out of the scrap wood I had been using and was wondering what type of wood would be best to buy?

Thanks!
Tanya


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

I have always wondered about landing boards.

Most of my bottem board extend a couple of inches beyond the front of the brood box. But for photos it appears that some have a sloping 6 to 12 inch board in front of this for a landing board.

I have never seen anything like this on the side of a bee-tree. So, is it really needed by the bees or is it a beekeeper invention?


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

JohnBeeMan,

I have never used the sloping landing board. Mine just sticks out flat a couple of inches. I do use a stack of bricks which doubles as a block for any critter planning on using the underside of the hive. These you can see on the photo.

I think it helps any bee that has trouble navigating and is a nice porch on a hot day or night.

I'm sure there are other- better reasons for the landing board.

Tanya


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

Sorry, I posted my photos on the Disease and Pests section-

Here it is- not the best looking front porch...

http://s207.photobucket.com/albums/bb182/Tanyaocd/album name/

Tanya


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## France (Apr 5, 2007)

JohnBeeMan said:


> I have always wondered about landing boards.
> I have never seen anything like this on the side of a bee-tree. So, is it really needed by the bees or is it a beekeeper invention?



The above statement is a bit unfair IMO. But, I will apologise if you actually keep yours in hollow tree-trunks? 

I don't know how much people out there care about bees and how much they watch them? But, where I come from, landing board have been in use for as long as man has started keeping bees in boxes/containers.
(Bees in trees don't bring 200 pus pounds of honey in a season either!)

A bit of open mind is needed here... 
Observe the heavy bees trying to land in an entrance. 
Right! It is hard!
Now, ad to that a little wind? Not strong wind, just moderate breeze... 
Right, bees are thrown all over the place. They usually struggle something awful to get home...
If the beekeeper is a bit of a lazy bone, there could be troublesome grass in front of hive. Perhaps even tall grass, that all but prevents any kind of aproach...
Yes, I know: You too are copying a known trend and have top entrances! That is even worse....
Many a bee will simply never make it in the hive, under a heavy load. And that is a fact!
I have 16 inch landing boards in front all of mine. Had them when I ran commercial outfit too. Cost should not be an issue. Poor bees work themselves to death for us - at least we can do is provide them with half decent approach to their home!? 
I would not keep bees without a landing board of some kind - period !

Plywood will do best. But anything is better than nothing. 
A word of caution though: No cement, rocks or bricks! They are cold and in colder weather many bees won't make it home... 
Rugs in front of hives are great to keep the grass down but get soggy and prove the end of a journey, when cold, for too many a tired bee.

That is the way I see this - and you should too - if you care that is..?


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

Sr Tanya,

Here is an idea for you. I use wood pallets. I normally cut them in half, and put 2 hives to a pallet. Look around, ask for permission to have them, etc.. Then if you want to dress them up with bricks, scrap wood, or plywood you can. I don't bother treating the pallets, or paint them, although you certainly could. They help keep grass, or weeds from clogging the entrances.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Here's my landing board:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/MigratoryTopEntrance2.JPG


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I use a hodge podge of different equimpent styles. The sloping landing board usually is not an built in part of the hive but a part of the hive stand, with a bottom board sitting on top of it. I have some hives with the bottom board built in and no landing board. some of them have bottom entrances, some have upper entrances. Most of my hives with no bottom board are built for ease of transportation since the landing board gets in the way when you put stacks of hives on a truck or trailor and then try to secure them with straps across the back which is the current law. If you have bottom boards the boxe cannot fit snug against each other except in the side to side direction, so when you tighten your load some of them will slip and create an opening which disturbs the bees an makes them want to fly out to investigate. The end result is a lot of lost bees. Any time I have to move more that 20 hives at a time I want hives with no landing boards. When they get to their destination I always put them on pallets in such a manner that there is an inch or two of board from the pallet in front of each hive. They can always use that as a landing board. If the entrance is a hole near the top of the hive, I try to use a box with wooden lifting cleats below the hole. The bees don't need much to grab when they come in and if they are so heavy with pollen that they miss the entrance a couple of times they usually miss it by so much that a landing board wouldn't have helped anyway. I've watched them undershoot my combination sloped front hive stands with 1 1/2 " horizontal landing boards above them, just as often as i've seen them undershoot a 1 " hole 3/4 of the way up from the bottom of a deep super with no landing board. My prefered answer to all of this is to make sure when I groom the bee yard that I leave a few shoots of grass in front of each entrance tall enough for the low flyers to climb back up.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Landing boards are the last remaining vestige of the belief that bees
would "appreciate" features in their homes that humans enjoyed.

Many of the pre-Langstroth "patent hives" looked like dollhouses,
and had singled roofs, chimneys, even windows through which one
could presumably watch comb being drawn and filled.

So, the "porch" still exists. Never mind that there's never been
a tree that provided a "porch" of any sort.

If you watch a hive without a landing board, the bees fly right in
and out of the entrance without any problem, and bees that need
a landing surface (due to heavy takeoff/landing traffic, or a heavy
load that makes landing problematic for the bee) are just as happy 
to land on the front face of the hive and climb down to the
entrance as they would have been to land on a landing board
and climb up.

The bases that include a sloped ramp up to the entrance are 
prone to rot out right at one of the wood joints, which will
topple the hive every time. I find a pair of cinderblocks to
be cheaper and much more sturdy over the long haul for 
non-palleted hives.

But a bottom board that extends beyond the front surface of the
hive and provides a "landing board" certainly won't hurt, and does
make it easy to look at what pollens are coming into a hive.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

I appreciated the "background" J.F. on the landing boards and porches. I'd never heard that before! Since I don't have to worry much about moving the hives and securing them with straps my only landing boards are Screened Bottom Boards. Wouldn't even think of using a solid board at this point in time. Just my .02. But with the pallet's I might have to investigate just screening different sections so each hive could just be "sat" in it's place. I think someone else is doing just this thing.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

Well, as usual, I get much more information than I initially thought to ask.

However, *what type of wood is best to use*-- regardless of how each one chooses to make it? I do use solid bottom boards.

I have mine on cinderblocks and not every bee makes it into the hive without a little place in front to land (sometimes even upside down). 

I enjoy the various thoughts on this topic or any bee topic, for that matter.

Thanks!
Tanya


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Pines are easiest to use. Hardwoods are okay. Just avoid using the pressure treated lumber due to toxicity.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>get much more information than I initially thought to ask . . .
Hopefully, some of it is USEABLE 

>what type of wood is best to use . . .
The part that touches the ground should resist rot. Cyprus is often suggested for that reason. Many BKs use (other woods) some form of rot preventive. Pressure treated wood (deck material) might be used (may "runners" that touch the ground) IF none of it is INSIDE the hive.

A "hive stand" made of treated materials would last more than a "life time".
A "bottom board" that sits on a "hive stand" should not be made of pressure treated materials.


>I do use solid bottom boards . . .
We all have made "mistakes" , and 
it's never too late to "change our ways"


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

O.K. -- I have been thinking of the screened bottom, but really don't know what to expect in my area or exactly what they accomplish other than letting the mites drop through the holes. 

Tanya


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## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

Sr. Tanya said:


> Well, as usual, I get much more information than I initially thought to ask.
> 
> However, *what type of wood is best to use*-- regardless of how each one chooses to make it? I do use solid bottom boards.
> 
> Pine works fine. Cedar is more expensive but lasts a longer


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

I'll check the cedar prices in this area. What type of pine is usually used? That's if the cedar is too high.

Thanks!
Tanya


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

White pine works wonderfully!


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

Power Napper,

White pine is easy to work with- I need to replacement some of my equipment and thought the bottom board would be a good beginning.

Now I'm wondering about the *screened bottoms*-- can these be made or do they have to be bought?

Tanya


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>
Yes, I know: You too are copying a known trend and have top entrances! That is even worse....
>>Many a bee will simply never make it in the hive, under a heavy load. And that is a fact!


come on France, thats a bit off the mark, dont you think?
A bees, foraging up a heavey load, flying back from the field as fast and efficient as she can up to two miles, and not being able to make it into the hive becasue the hive has an upper enterence,and it cant fly up to it? I kind of doubt it.

In my opinion landing boards are nice. but I dont use that slanted one. I have about 2 inches extra length off my bottom boards, made up freely of otherwise wasted cut plywood. Works good. But I wouldnt say they make a honeycrop. I have kept hives with no landing board, and they use the frount of the hive just as well, staining it yellow of pollen, and produce a fine crop of honey. I think it takes more than no landing board to interupt the bees nature of production.


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

I just made my screened bottoms using 2x4 lumber and #8 hardware cloth. Somewhere on this forum is a thread with pictures of them. Works fine for me.
I placed three sides the 3 1/2 side out and the front I placed the 2x4 1 1/2" side facing out--it is the landing board. The landing board was placed 3/8" down from the top of the sides for a 3/8th inch entrance.
Hope that helps.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

I looked around and found some photos. It's something to think about.

Thank you for the advise.

Tanya


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I don't worry about landing boards as I noted earlier, but for those who are really concerned about top entrances with no landing board here's a quick and easy answer.
When I am trying to hive bees out of a tree or building I often staple a piece of burlap below the entrance of my swarm trap and fasten it down just above the wire cone on the entrance to the old hive. The bees usually take to this right away and start moving in. The same idea could make it easy for that tired forager to climb up to the entrance if she is having trouble getting home.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>screened bottoms-- can these be made or do they have to be bought . . .
You can "convert" your existing "useless, good for nothing, out-dated"  solid BBs to nice  screened bottom boards.

The best use I have found for SBBs, is the easy at which you can monitor Varroa mite loads. You are "counting mites", right?


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## France (Apr 5, 2007)

Perhaps I did not use the proper words? A misunderstanding perhaps?
In my parts of the woods, (I keep bees in total wilderness) they start foraging when the ground is still under snow. (Willows, maple, etc...)
With top entrance only, many don't make it in! (they fall down and within short time are lost to cold) 
With lower entrance and some kind of landing board, a lot of those "fallen" do make it home.
And with all do respect to your observations - in my 52 years with bees I know that it makes a difference if the weather is consistently cold when willows and maples are in early bloom. Hives in such a weather can all but loose all their foragers - which in early spring aren't too numerous to begin with...
Late fall is not much better. My bees fly at amazingly low temperatures...

You don't have to believe an old man!? But, come for a visit and you can help me picking them up, warming them in hand and letting them walk on home. . . .



Ian wrote: [/QUOTE]
come on France, thats a bit off the mark, dont you think?
A bees, foraging up a heavey load, flying back from the field as fast and efficient as she can up to two miles, and not being able to make it into the hive becasue the hive has an upper enterence,and it cant fly up to it? I kind of doubt it.[/QUOTE]



I wish that mine could only fly 2 miles? 
They will forage up to ten kilometers and more ! In my case, first 4 0r 5 kilometers is nothing but rock and water! The lake I'm on is 46 kilometers long!

http://www.lasi.group.shef.ac.uk/pdf/rbeeimpr2000.pdf

Regards,
France


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## yoyo (Jun 13, 2007)

So many posts here are related to specific locations and climates. I think there should be a reminder message at the top of the reply window that says "Please keep in mind the climates and locations before posting your replies." I think anyone who keeps bees where there is lots of snow that lingers around for days or weeks certainly has a different aproach to over-wintering techniques than the beeks in a more southern warmer area. With that being said, I have seen lots of pictures of those slanted WIDE landing boards in magazines and different ads, but I have not seen one in use in my area. I make my own SBB and leave about a two inch flat landing area in front of a 3/8" opening. I have seen lots of loaded bees come to a pileup in front of the hive and drop to the ground. Then they usually sit and rest for a minute or two before trying to fly up. This is where those other insects usually get a free meal. Those spiders and ants are very aggresive and get more than their fair share of bees, not to mention the Yellow Jackets that will single out a bee in the grass. (I don't have snow here that gets them, but I am sure it's just as bad.) As for me, I would spend my money for SBBs or feeders before a wider landing board, but if you build your own SBB, you can certainly add as much porch as you want.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I know that it makes a difference if the weather is consistently cold when willows and maples are in early bloom. Hives in such a weather can all but loose all their foragers

Ya, I tend to have my hives start foraging some years on the trees while snow is still around. But they dont forage until they can fly, they dont try to fly until the temperature rises. So until the temp rises, they cant fly, so they dont know the trees are in bloom yet. My bees keep tight to the hives until they are able to wander.
If it was anyother way, we could not keep bees up here.

Your noticing somthing different. Your noticing older bees flying off to die, or a hive stricken with disease, sick bees flying out in droves.
I see that with hives that have t mite infections, or worst when they have nosema.


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## France (Apr 5, 2007)

Ian, my hat goes off to your bees! 

Mine don't know how to read weather report. They don't even pay attention to termometers! But they are very attuned to their environment. They have to be, to survive in our hostile wilderness. (There are no fields, not even grassy areas for miles! Only rock, swamps, watter and thick stands of timber and about 200.000 bears!)

When the sun warms up the air, so that they can fly, they can very well tell that willow and maple is blooming, cause they grow right beside the hives. Even if I could train them to only stay at safe distance to the hives, they will probably disobey me and go on those blooms - regardless?

And thank you for pointing out, to an old man with 52 years experience, all but last 20 in a commercial role... I did not know that all those bees of mine were the old, the sick, the infirm - simply "flying out in droves" as you so eloquently put it? 

Now I am really confused?

What are the bees that forage on the above mentioned blooms? And the ones trying and getting into my hives with full loads and the ones ending in the snow(also with full loads?) Mine are the only bees in the region for at least 100 kilometers in every direction! Many times that in others.) 

Is it so hard to acknowledge that landing boards are perhaps a wital part of an successful hive?
Perhaps, acknowledging with a silence would be the smartest thing to do?

I did not have the slightest intention of splitting hairs with a fellow Canadian.
My intend was to tell my findings. To offer an opinion, on which I am willing to stake my reputation! 
Perhaps someone, (with open mind and a bit less prejudice?) could use it to his/her own advantage?

I for one, appreciate everybody' opinions. But to insinuate that at my age and experience I can't tel the difference between the sick, old, infirm and the dyeing is in my opinion - a blow below the belt!?
But, as such, it could perhaps be expected, giving the "modern" upbringing of some of today's youngsters. . . .

And I am ashamed at myself, for not seeing that it is unwise to but in the close knit "elite" of this thread. 
De-crowning of anybody - was also the least of my intentions....






Ian said:


> >>I know that it makes a difference if the weather is consistently cold when willows and maples are in early bloom. Hives in such a weather can all but loose all their foragers
> 
> 
> > Ya, I tend to have my hives start foraging some years on the trees while snow is still around. But they dont forage until they can fly, they dont try to fly until the temperature rises. So until the temp rises, they cant fly, so they dont know the trees are in bloom yet. My bees keep tight to the hives until they are able to wander.
> ...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>> for one, appreciate everybody' opinions. But to insinuate that at my age and experience I can't tel the difference between the sick, old, infirm and the dyeing is in my opinion - a blow below the belt!?

I didnt say it, you did. 
>>>weather is consistently cold when willows and maples are in early bloom. Hives in such a weather can all but loose all their foragers 

I am suggesting those hives that loose all thier foragers loose them becasue of maybe disease problems, not becasue they cant make it back to the hive.

>Now I am really confused?

Your not the only one. I cant seem to figure out how those bees of yours can fly up to those tall maple and willow trees, gather the best and as much pollen and nectar they can hold, not being able to make it into a top enterence of a hive? 
landing boards are sure nice, and have many advantages. They fit in nice with our modern day beekeeping management operations. Wheather or not they are "vital part of an successful hive" is to be debated.

>>52 years experience, all but last 20 in a commercial role.

What would you think of my opinion if I told you I was in the business for 10years, would you think different of my opinions if I were in the business for 40? How about if I owned 30 hives, would you take my thoughts on bee biology different if I run 3000?
Makes no difference to me. What is thought and said does. 
perhaps a difference in language and interperatation, I have no intention to insult. But I do have the intention to discuss and challange.

Perhaps your willing to converse with an open mind to a challanging opinion?


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Sometimes I think landing boards are just great rain catchers, especially for an inappropriately slopped hive.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

nice thinking allen... 

or the front porch which was added to the bee's house to make the human's feel good, in the end this increase the deterioriation of the bottom board. this translates into adding something that has no real function beyond decreasing the time interval until the bottom board will have to be replaced. essentially an added expense that will generate it own added expense.


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Tanya I think (????) in all the round and round since you made the statement you weren't sure what screened bottoms are for other than a place for mites to fall, it wasn't answered or attempted.

They are also used for ventilation in summer and the same in winter but for a different reason, moister control. They allow the trash bees drop to fall clear of the hives, a breeding ground for the wrong kinda bugs if left unattended on a solid bottom. And relieve the problem of rain getting in if the hive is tilted the wrong direction. The only real reason for having the screen as opposed to having nothing at all, is to keep out the unwanted intruders and pests.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> I wish that mine could only fly 2 miles?
> They will forage up to ten kilometers and more ! In my case, first 4 0r 5 kilometers is nothing but rock and water! The lake I'm on is 46 kilometers long! -France


How do you account for the energy-consumed versus energy-gained dynamics of such long flights? My understanding is that such long flights require greater amounts of energy (honey "burned" by the foragers) than are retrieved (nectar transported back by the bees). Wouldn't such long foraging requirements over extended periods result in "negative" honey production?


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

Hi Bizzybee,


Thank you for your answer--

What about winter temps with a screened bottom with temperatures going down to 10 degrees or less. Do you still use them then?

Tanya


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## France (Apr 5, 2007)

Well, all that is left up to the bees. I know that they load up just enough 'fuel' to get there. As much as I read on the subject, I understand that they do not attempt such flights if economics are not there. Bees are a lot smarter than what we give them credit for. 
Than, it must be mentioned, not all foraging is at such great distances. Bees will explore closest sources first and choose the appropriate sources on basis "which is more profitable.' More profitable of course means like, distance, wind direction and force, time of day, weather and perhaps the most important - sugar content of the nectar.
Some will even forgo the 'economics/profitability' side of things and forage in less favorable 'close' locations. But, in nature such behaviour is luckily short lived. . . .

First year that I had bees on present location, they almost convinced me that it was perhaps a bad idea to keep them in such 'barren' and deep wilderness. I even obtained a bag of pollen for 'just in case?' 
But, the second year, they somewhat adopted and produced around 55 - 60 pounds of surplus. 
But now, they seem to be an 'old hand' at this and they gather an average of about 130 pounds plus they build a box or two of foundationless comb each season.
So, it appears that their strategy works for them and of course - me. 

How to break that down scientifically?
That is beyond me. I only brought them on that location, cause life without little buggers, to me, is not worth much. 
So, they keep an old man happy and contended. They are very mild and happy bees. I work them weekly, with no smoke ( I took the belows off the smoker, so I would not forget and perhaps use it in a pinch?) They are often left opened for hours, without any protest and/or slightest show of displeasure. (only brood-chambers must not be separated!)

Scientific mambo-jumbo is not my cup of tea. I leave that for the experts to unravel. I only see that they (bees) get all the help possible - in terms of housing needs (like landing boards)  
If we in our ultimate wisdom thought that at one point bees needed our help to survive? Than the least we can do is stick to our commitment and provide them with the best care possible! 


Regards,
France




Kieck said:


> How do you account for the energy-consumed versus energy-gained dynamics of such long flights? My understanding is that such long flights require greater amounts of energy (honey "burned" by the foragers) than are retrieved (nectar transported back by the bees). Wouldn't such long foraging requirements over extended periods result in "negative" honey production?


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## suprstakr (Feb 10, 2006)

France reading your post a thought accured to me. I read a long time ago that bees produce their own forage sights by polinating. My area had very little goldenrod first year, but the second the place was full of it .so maybe your desert is becoming a jungle somewhere out of sight. Now they don't have to fly so far.


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## France (Apr 5, 2007)

Superstakr,

you are probably right on. 
I ride a mountain bike daily and with binoculars keep an eye on things. This year I did notice flowers where before there was none. Even blueberry bushes, where there was none. 
I also saw a lot of seeds, like goldenrod, asters and fire weed, but am yet to find a bee on those.
And soil in this parts is something else also. Most of the time is so dry that the water simply rolls off.
I suspect that the only way they can find nectar is along the waters edge and in swamps? ? ?
And honey they produce is the sweetest that I have ever tasted - well it's unique, sort of 'one of a kind.'

Regards,
France


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Sr. Tanya
When you make your SBB's you can run a slot around the bottom of the side's and front to allow a board to slide in and close off the bottom for the winter. This slide can come out at any time to see what's dropping. Mites, new wax, old wax, pollen, just interesting stuff.
When it warms up, it comes out for the summer. When temp's start dropping, the boards go back in.


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## birdsnbees (Jul 10, 2008)

*Treated lumber*

Am in the process of building landing boards. I would like to build them out of treated lumber so they last longer. All would be painted inside and out. My question is,is using treated lumber a no no.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

It's fine for any application as long as the bees will not come into contact with it.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216116


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