# Making horizontal hives with langstroth frames



## Grid (Jun 5, 2009)

I am making horizontal hives, but will use standard langstroth frames.

My question: Deeps (9 5/8") or Mediums (6 5/8")?

Would deeps be better so the bees have room to cluster into a ball in the winter? Are mediums deep enough in a single 6 5/8" tall long hive? Etc...?

Thanks all!
Grid.


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

don't count me as an expert, but i would go with deeps. you'll haveless frames to deal with (assuming constant volume) and it'll give the bees a larger space to cluster in.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I went with mediums for two reasons:

1) I wanted to do top bars in it and also be able to use Langstroth frames, and my first attempt with deeps resulted in a complete collapse of all the combs in the hive.

2) All my Langstroth hives are mediums.

They have done fine.


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## Grid (Jun 5, 2009)

Thank you both. Michael, with mediums how long did you make your horizontal hives? How many frames?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I found my double width (2x10), full depth hive not wide enough, as I still had two supers high on top. They've drawn nearly 50 full depth frames this season (they did have two queens for half that time).


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

I'm currently building 4 long hives. Two are patterned after Matt Davey's two queen hives. The other two are three boxes long but the individual areas are square. I can run the frames either direction. The conventional way or the long way. Since I'm not going to move the hives I'm using deeps. I have dividers that connect the three areas that allow for either a solid divider, queen excluder, or open for the bee's to work the entire length. I'm going to run 1 hive with the frames crosswise and one lengthwise. They will both have 4#pkgs of carniolans installed on April 14th. Should be an interesting experiment. I'm also going to use narrow frames in the brood area. Since the frame areas are square they will fit 13 narrow frames, 11 std frames, or any mix of both. They will require alot of manipulation but isn't that the point of a hobby beekeeper. I also made them out of 1 1/2" material since I live in Montana at almost a mile in elevation.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Thank you both. Michael, with mediums how long did you make your horizontal hives? How many frames? 

Mine are 48 3/4", but I might make them 48" even. I was trying to make it so I could put standard migratory lids on it and come out even. That comes to about 33 frames.


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## Grid (Jun 5, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >Thank you both. Michael, with mediums how long did you make your horizontal hives? How many frames?
> 
> Mine are 48 3/4", but I might make them 48" even. I was trying to make it so I could put standard migratory lids on it and come out even. That comes to about 33 frames.


I was going to go with 44 1/16" which is 3 x the internal dimension of a standard 10-frame langstroth super. 48" sounds like a good round number, lumber often comes in that length already.

I am planning to assemble a simple box, butt-joints nothing fancy, glue-and-screw, sides rabbeted 3/8" to hold frame rests and be flush with the top, with the front piece 3/8" lower than the sides and back to provide a top entrance, then just slap a big sheet of plywood on it as a cover (ala migratory covers) with some rocks to weigh it down. A little worried the larger plywood sheet will warp and not sit flat, giving the weather entrance to the hive.

Thoughts?


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## Grid (Jun 5, 2009)

TNTBEES said:


> I'm currently building 4 long hives. Two are patterned after Matt Davey's two queen hives. The other two are three boxes long but the individual areas are square. I can run the frames either direction. The conventional way or the long way. Since I'm not going to move the hives I'm using deeps. I have dividers that connect the three areas that allow for either a solid divider, queen excluder, or open for the bee's to work the entire length. I'm going to run 1 hive with the frames crosswise and one lengthwise. They will both have 4#pkgs of carniolans installed on April 14th. Should be an interesting experiment. I'm also going to use narrow frames in the brood area. Since the frame areas are square they will fit 13 narrow frames, 11 std frames, or any mix of both. They will require alot of manipulation but isn't that the point of a hobby beekeeper. I also made them out of 1 1/2" material since I live in Montana at almost a mile in elevation.


That sounds well thought out for what you want. I am trying to follow the KISS principle, hoping the bees won't mind and it will make my life easier.


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

I think one of the key's with a horizontal configuration is length. You can't make it to long as you use followers to define the space needed at any given time. But to short can be a real issue. I have two KTB hives that are 60". If they grow like they did last year they will use 80% of that space. They have three upper entrances that can be corked. Last year I had a package on one end of a hive and then put a swarm on the other end. I should have merged the two before winter but I didn't and lost the swarm this winter.


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## Grid (Jun 5, 2009)

TNTBEES said:


> I think one of the key's with a horizontal configuration is length. You can't make it to long as you use followers to define the space needed at any given time. But to short can be a real issue. I have two KTB hives that are 60". If they grow like they did last year they will use 80% of that space. They have three upper entrances that can be corked. Last year I had a package on one end of a hive and then put a swarm on the other end. I should have merged the two before winter but I didn't and lost the swarm this winter.


That helps with the length decision: 60" x 80% = 48". 

Thanks!
Grid


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## HappyBeeing (Apr 6, 2013)

Bumping up an old thread!
Would LOVE to hear how your hives turned out and what sizes/types of bars etc you used! I have 3 top bars and just split one. Providing the split makes a queen and lives(got a good split last year so hoping for the best) I want to try out a long hive this year. 

Michael-- Why do you think your long hives with deeps have comb collapse? Was it just too-hot summer weather or was it due to trying moving bars or did they cross comb a lot and mess it up,or what? I'd appreciate the reason this happened to you since SO many long hive "plans" say to use deeps..... 

Is Anyone using top bars instead of lang frames in your long hive,and if so are you messing with spacers or 2 sizes of cut bars? If so what % are your brood bars? If you use all the same size bar what measurement is it?

Thank you! I'm having a heck of a time figuring out how to build my first long hive! I have no langs so don't have lang parts to need to exchange.


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

TNTBEES said:


> I'm currently building 4 long hives. Two are patterned after Matt Davey's two queen hives. The other two are three boxes long but the individual areas are square. I can run the frames either direction. The conventional way or the long way. Since I'm not going to move the hives I'm using deeps. I have dividers that connect the three areas that allow for either a solid divider, queen excluder, or open for the bee's to work the entire length. I'm going to run 1 hive with the frames crosswise and one lengthwise. They will both have 4#pkgs of carniolans installed on April 14th. Should be an interesting experiment. I'm also going to use narrow frames in the brood area. Since the frame areas are square they will fit 13 narrow frames, 11 std frames, or any mix of both. They will require alot of manipulation but isn't that the point of a hobby beekeeper. I also made them out of 1 1/2" material since I live in Montana at almost a mile in elevation.


I have two winters on these two long hives. I don't see any difference in the two configurations. They are almost exactly the same in overwintering and spring build up. The one without the dividers is definitely easier to work. So I think I will pull the dividers this year and reconfigure it back to the std. lang configuration.


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## rootyb (Apr 10, 2015)

TNTBEES said:


> I have two winters on these two long hives. I don't see any difference in the two configurations. They are almost exactly the same in overwintering and spring build up. The one without the dividers is definitely easier to work. So I think I will pull the dividers this year and reconfigure it back to the std. lang configuration.


Sorry for the thread necro, but I found this via Google.

Can you post some pics of the hives? I'm especially curious about your bring ableto run the frames lengthwise. What do the frames rest on when doing so? Is there a gap between the frames (lengthwise)? 

I have a horizontal Lang, and have been kicking around ideas for my next hive. One was a similar config, but with the frames running lengthwise rather than across. I was thinking I could put a bar across the box where each column of frames would end, for the frames to rest on, but I'd worry about burr comb under the bar, between the frames.

Thanks for any info/pics you can provide.


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

rootyb said:


> I have a horizontal Lang, and have been kicking around ideas for my next hive [ ... ] with the frames running lengthwise rather than across. I was thinking I could put a bar across the box where each column of frames would end, for the frames to rest on, but I'd worry about burr comb under the bar, between the frames.


One solution for this problem is deceptively simple ...

Consider ... if you were to butt two of your box hives together, end-to-end - then you'd have exactly what you are looking for. The only problem then being that the bees would be separated into two boxes, rather than one.

So - staying with this 'mind experiment' - with the boxes still butted together, cut several large holes into the two walls where those boxes meet - which will then allow free passage for the bees between boxes.

So - there you go - build 'as if' you were building two boxes end-to-end. Perhaps not the most elegant solution, but it is one that would most definitely work ok.

You may find that a substantial number of 10mm slots would work better than large holes.

LJ


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Sorry I didn't see this before now...

>Michael-- Why do you think your long hives with deeps have comb collapse? Was it just too-hot summer weather or was it due to trying moving bars or did they cross comb a lot and mess it up,or what? I'd appreciate the reason this happened to you since SO many long hive "plans" say to use deeps..... 

They did not cross comb it at all. But it was very hot weather and a strong flow and the combs were very heavy and very soft and I probably should not have worked them. Also, I had a screened bottom which probably made too much ventilation. They were in the shade, though, and not the sun, but they still collapsed.

>Is Anyone using top bars instead of lang frames in your long hive

I have, both in the deeps and in the mediums. I've have also run foundationless hoffman frames.

>,and if so are you messing with spacers or 2 sizes of cut bars?

I had two sizes of bars.

> If so what % are your brood bars?

I usually run half and half.


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## rootyb (Apr 10, 2015)

Little-John said:


> One solution for this problem is deceptively simple ...
> 
> Consider ... if you were to butt two of your box hives together, end-to-end - then you'd have exactly what you are looking for. The only problem then being that the bees would be separated into two boxes, rather than one.
> 
> ...


Ha. That's crafty. I think the holes would be better, from a "not having to line frames up with slots" perspective.

Thanks!


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

TNTBEES said:


> I have two winters on these two long hives. I don't see any difference in the two configurations. They are almost exactly the same in overwintering and spring build up. The one without the dividers is definitely easier to work. So I think I will pull the dividers this year and reconfigure it back to the std. lang configuration.


It is hard to take good pictures of the inside of the hives right now just because of the numbers of bee's. I'll try to explain what i did and why. First of all remember that this was an experiment to compare a long lang with normal frame configuration and one with the frames going the long way. I wanted to see if bee movement through the hive was affected by the frames blocking the movement. So I needed to build both hive bodies exactly the same. I also wanted to maintain bee space as closely as i could. I also wanted to be able to close off the hive as if there were follower boards. So I built 3/8" plywood dividers that the frames sit on in the lengthwise configuration. There are two dividers separated by a 1/4" space. In that space I can insert a 1/4 plywood divider. The 3/8 inch dividers have slots cut into them that are exactly the same size as the space in between frames. The 1/4 inch divider has the same slots and also I have some 1/4 inch dividers that are solid, so i can close off part of the hive if need be. So if the slotted dividers are inserted there is a bee space between frames the full length of the hive. My first concern was that they would propolize the dividers so bad that i wouldn't be able to switch out the dividers. That hasn't been a problem. The other issue i had to address was since I have frames potentially going both ways I had to make the hive body wide enough to fit the frames. So basically you end up with a hive space that is square. My main hive body is three compartments long, and 14 frames wide. I wanted the flexibility to do a two queen hive, so that is the reason for being three compartments long. 
The bottom line is that I see no noticeable difference in the two hives. they are both on there second season. they both overwintered, they are both about the same size numbers wise and are almost identical in the amount of brood and stores. I am about to add supers to them. They have both just about filled the entire length of the main hive bodies. The queen does move through the first two compartments but hasn't gone into the third. It has been a fun experiment but i think i'm about to call it good and start planning on changing them over to the normal configuration and try two queens. I will just slide out the 1/4 inch plywood dividers and insert queen excluders in its place. the center compartment will be the common area. I will probably wait until next season to reconfigure. Here in Montana we are starting to think about winter and it would not be a good idea to disturb them to much right now.


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## DrRuss (Feb 8, 2015)

What are you using for queen excluders? A part of a commercially made one or one of your own devising?


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

I just cut down metal store bought excluders to fit.


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