# Dead Bees, Bad Smell



## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

I benefit from reading others experiences, so I guess I can share one of mine.

I use deteriorated OSB boards for foliage control around my hives.
One hive has a lot of dead bees around it & has had "all spring"
I have been wondering about why this is.
I checked hive march 8 moved empty combs to top, sugar roll found _1_ mite.
busy with other hives & other chores, finally checked hive again Sunday, May 1, checked top 3boxes of 4 .
( hive consists of 4 medium & shallow 10 frame boxes ) ended inspection due to rain.
Hive is some what thin on bees, did not see queen, but did see eggs.
Thursday, May 5 while working very close to the hives smelled something dead. 
On my way to my 2nd shift job, I added "smells bad" with "lots of dead bees", suspecting foulbrood, 
( I have never seen Foulbrood) decided to invite the State bee inspector out. I expected it would take a day or two, but he happened to be on my side of my county when I called. So he was probably there in 10 minutes.
He and my wife went through this hive & another or two.
My wife said the brood "looked like snot", not enough bees, and "the inspector said it didn't smell right for AFB, EFB maybe. Some sacbrood present, some DWV." 
Inspector used a twig , stirred up & raked out some dead brood, smeared on a card,
placed card & twig in a plastic bag to send to "lab".
I think he sent to Alabama lab in Montgomery, or Auburn. Some how, I expect 6 weeks until results.
Inspector suggested re-queening would help, de-queening, & letting the bees make a replacement.
Also suggested teramyacin or Tylan ( as a mite treatment ???? )
He suggested I do nothing until lab report, considering this hive is 300-400 feet from my other hives,
& that I not mix any equipment from this hive with any other hive .

Thursday night after work, I googled American Foulbrood and European Foulbrood images & videos.
Friday, I went through the hive for myself. 
My research indicated that EFB turns the larva yellow & kills the larva before it is sealed, 
AFB kills the larva after it is sealed, & both of these generate a foul smell as the larva decays.
neither of these generate dead adult bees outside of the hive. 

So, Friday, I go through the hive. My plan is to look for evidence of foulbrood, locate & remove the queen, 
clean the bottom board, separate the hive into two groups if possible, so they will double their chances on successfully making a new queen.
( I cobbled up a sacrificial grade top & bottom board, just in case it _is_ foulbrood, & I end up burning it.)

In the hive I find, I think,less bees than last week. I start by stacking the hive boxes on the new bottom 
board & cleaning the old one into a cardboard box. I leave it open while I continue ... If the bees can get out of the box, 
they live. If not, they will burn. Along with the dead bees outside the hive , 
there were about a cup or a cup & a half dead bees on the screened bottom board.
I set the original bottom box back on the sbb, & go through it frame by frame, looking for the Q, looking at the cell caps, & at the brood.
All of the open brood is pearly white, which appears to rule out EFB ( allegedly turns the brood yellow, & kills before capping).
I do not see the "depressed cell caps" I saw in the youtube videos & images of AFB.
I do see rather a lot of perforated cell caps. Through some of the perforations, I can see movement. ( a new bee about to emerge?)
but a lot of them, I see no movement. I cut out the top of some of these, the larva is dead,it appears to be head first into the cell.
I try to pull them out with a twig, but comes apart, with milky liquid. their is no "ropy-ness" no "stringyness."
I attempt to find the telltale "scale on the bottom of the cell", & see some suspects, but not really so much.
I did see dead larva on their back with their heads toward the mouth of the cell, decayed & turning black.

I do not see any unhatched eggs on this visit. I do not see the Q. I do see 3 pretty puny looking QC on 2 different frames.
( but these were in one of the upper boxes).

I try to do a "sugar roll" mite test, but it is hard to shake enough bees into my bin from one frame to get a full measure sample. while I am getting another frame to shake the bees fly out of the bin.
So eventually I sugar test "some" bees, probably less than 1/2 cup. mite count is 15.
I repeat the mite test with another sample, but alcohol wash method this time. I am better at getting bees into jar, but still probably less than 1/2 cup.
Mite count is 22. 
( I would say this proves the faultiness of the sugar roll, but there were different sample sizes. 
And, all the bees in the sugar roll still lived, the alcohol bees were sacrificed.)

I took one of the QC frames , put it in the lower 2 medium boxes, & put the lid on.
I stacked the remaining bottom board & one medium box on top of that, with the entrance 180 degrees from the original 
made sure the remaining QC frame, & as much "not empty" frames made up the rest of the box, culling undrawn, and empty drawn wax, & then the wonky comb, & skimpier frames of stores.
I put the top on this single, put the culls in the remaining box, & placed it on top of the hive crossways so each end hung over the sides.
hope fully any bees remaining on these combs will move indoors before dark ( it is now 5pm). I think it is too late in the day for bees from my other hive to find & rob these frames, 
I will bag & freeze them after dark.
I do came back about 10pm, all live bees have abandoned the combs. I bag & mark them as "AFB suspect" & place them in the freezer.
If the lab says positive for foulbrood, they will burn with the hive. Any thing else, & they can return to these hives, if the hives survive.

Later I look up info in sacbrood. It looks a lot like what I am seeing.
one comment stands out"(often mistaken for AFB)"

My evaluation of this hive...
( I was previously very pleased with its performance as "treatment free" & mite handling/tolerance qualities)
I suspect that the mite population expanded, & more bees were dying than the remaining bees could haul out through my robber screen.
This might account for the bad smell. 
Finally, the mites, or virii the mites bring on, caused the Q to fail to lay enough to make up the loses,
& either she died on her own, or the bees dispatched her, & made new QC's.
The lack of brood probably "enhances" the mite counts. with very little brood, the mites are mostly on the adult bees, whom are mostly dead.

So, what I have done... cleaned out the bottom board, separated the bees into 2 groups to increase my chances of actually getting a mated Q, & reduced the size of the hive.
I still have to add a robbing screen to the upper box. I may swap entrance locations between the two, so that the brood won't be totally abandoned in either box.

I will wait on lab results.
I will research the effect of mite treatments on queen cells and or virgin queens.
If the hive is to survive, the mites have to be controlled,"some kind of way".
I may watch them die.
I the lab says anything other than foulbrood, & if I can get them strong enough to "cover the comb", 
I will return the frames & stores to this hive only.

If the lab confirms either variety of foulbrood, I will put them down & burn everything.
Comments & suggestions welcome. especially on how to painlessly & completely put them down, if it comes to that.

There are some photos attached, most of my photos were "not that great", but they are of the hive under discussion. better photos & vids on Google.
Thanks ... CE


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

That is a very clearly written description of the colony. With a mite count that high other contributing factors may be secondary. I found that killing frames of healthy drone brood and leaving them for the workers to haul out created a bad smell. Perhaps some from in the hive and certainly from the many corpses that got tossed within a few feet of the entrance.

I hope the test comes back neg. for AFB


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>One hive has a lot of dead bees around it & has had "all spring"

Not usually associated with EFB or AFB. Could be viruses from mites, DWV especially. 

>I added "smells bad" with "lots of dead bees", suspecting foulbrood,

Dead bees smell is not foul brood, foul brood smell come from the dead larva that is kill by the disease AFB has a very distinct smell, with EFB smell comes from secondary bacteria. Smell is often only noticeable after bees dwindled and no long cleaning out the dead. I did not see enough dead larva to make a smell, you may need to pull the dead larva and smell it one at a time. EFB may still not have a smell. 

>My wife said the brood "looked like snot"

EFB or PMS

>Inspector used a twig , stirred up & raked out some dead brood, smeared on a card, placed card & twig in a plastic bag to send to "lab".

Not ropy? more like snot? EFB.

>Also suggested teramyacin or Tylan ( as a mite treatment ???? )

Not for mites. teramyacin (OTC) good for EFB and AFB. May only suppress both disease. Tylan only good on AFB but very effective.

>He suggested I do nothing until lab report, considering this hive is 300-400 feet from my other hives, & that I not mix any equipment from this hive with any other hive.

+1 (if this hive dies seal it up do not let it get robbed)

>So eventually I sugar test "some" bees, probably less than 1/2 cup. mite count is 15. I repeat the mite test with another sample, but alcohol wash method this time. I am better at getting bees into jar, but still probably less than 1/2 cup. Mite count is 22. 

Very high mite count; sounds like mites. I would treat. 

>If the lab confirms either variety of foulbrood, I will put them down & burn everything. Comments & suggestions welcome. especially on how to painlessly & completely put them down, if it comes to that.

You don't need to burn EFB. Worst case it only last 1-2 years on stored equipment, can also be cleaned with bleach. 

Picture 2; top left two dead slumped larva, lots of intermingled different age open larva. Both signs of EFB. 

picture 3; several perforated caps, with no sign of roping. Top of picture right below bee butt, dead stretched larva in the cell? EFB

Looks and sounds like a combination of things to include EFB. I would treat both OTC and for mites. If it's a brood disease this will also reduce the chance of it spreading while waiting on results. By the time you get the results your hive should be on recovery. Brood break will also help but I don't think it will do much by itself. 

Do not use any essential oils, it will make any brood diseases worse. 

Lots of good info on EFB here;

https://books.google.com/books?hl=e...epage&q=european foulbrood resistance&f=false


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Thanks for the responses.
I will probably be overly cautious with this.
CE


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If the lab confirms either variety of foulbrood, I will put them down & burn everything.

AFB is the ONLY valid reason to ever burn a hive. EFB is not spore forming and will not endure once there is no brood in the hive.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

FP, I think in this context that stating that 'tylan...is very effective' is a misleading statement.

An active infection treated with tylan will likely come back once tylan wears off....amd will move with the equipment.

Tylan is very effective if you always use it...it's also an effective way to mask clinical symptoms allowing infected equipment to be transported and spread the disease despite effective inspections.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

deknow said:


> FP, I think in this context that stating that 'tylan...is very effective' is a misleading statement.


It is possible it will come back but it is also possible Tylan will get rid of it and it will not return;

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?313392-tylan-shelf-life&p=1282826#post1282826


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> it is also possible Tylan will get rid of it and it will not return;

Tylan will definitely not kill the spores and in 75 years they will still be a potential problem...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

....and it's possible that it will just clear up on its own without any beekeeper intervention. You also might not crash if you drive drunk.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Or more to the point...

Are you advocating using tylan against an active AFB infection as an effective way to cure AFB, and put to rest fears of it spreading with the equipment over the next year plus while the tylan remains active in the hive? Really?


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

It's labeled for an active infection only, not preventative, not for continuous use. Many have used it and had no reoccurrences. 

It absolutely does not kill spores. There is nothing known that can kill AFB spores in an active beehive. But even with spores many have no further disease. 

So, Yes I would say it's effective. I wouldn't use it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The description and "shotgun" appearance of the brood screams parasitic mite syndrome (pms). I don't see any sunken caps and really doubt that afb is your problem but more likely efb brought on by mite stress. Work the problem (varroa) first, including perhaps requeening and the disease issue will probably resolve itself. From a treatment perspective, TM is more effective against efb. I wouldn't recommend trying to control it with Tylan and I certainly wouldn't use it in the spring because of the danger of residue in any honey that is produced.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Thanks for the discussion.
I also do not _think_ it is foul brood, but what do I know? a bunch of photos off the internet does not make me competent to judge. I will wait for the lab report.
Meanwhile, I have opted for a "powdered sugar" mite treatment.
I chose not to use the "more effective" formic or Oxalic acid treatments because they are allegedly hard on brood, & queens. I think one comment was something like "(a good way to get rid of weak queens)"
The only brood these bees have that counts are a few queen cells. If they can make themselves a queen, they have a chance.
I will not de queen a healthy nuc to prop up this sick hive, which is quickly dwindling towards "nuc" size, I guess.
My apiary model is to collect some honey, & maybe sell a few nucs or splits along the way.
Merely to suppress a disease is not enough, I I have to cure it, or eradicate it.
Reputation is everything, & selling hives that have to be medicated to live is not a good idea.
It s just some boxes & wax. Nothing to lose the farm over.
If my business was renting out bees & keeping them flying, I might take another view.
I have about 20 or 25 boxes with bees in them, including nucs. I can probably care for about 10.
So you may understand why I am not going out of my way to "save" this particular hive.
I got a daughter hive out of her last year, which turned into 5 nucs as they tried to swarm a couple of weeks ago. So I still have the genetic diversity.
Thank you again for the suggestions & comments, and please do not be offended if I don't manage this hive as you would. CE


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

3 mites in a half-cup roll is treatment time- you show levels 5 to 7+ times that. The mites have far outrun the bees and weakened them, making them highly susceptible to all of the disease that is around, and particularly those transmitted by the mites. I think they are about done for.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

For those following this tale of woe, here is an update ....
The top split was a single super with a QC ... past tense.
Apparently I did not reduce the size of the hive enough, or too many bees died too soon, or went back to the main hive, or something. Wax moths have taken the combs. there might be a couple dozen bees in here. Since I a have quarantined these hives & their equipment, I have no more room in my freezer, so I cut out the moth corrupted comb, & burned it.
The remaining portion of the hive, formerly the "lower split" has an empty QC, & more bees than the top split had, but still not enough. There is still some capped worker brood left (dead?)
there are some hive beetles present, but so far, no wax moth larva.
I added a frame of capped worker brood, with a few eggs & young larva from a thriving Carniolian nuc. If there is no queen out mating, they have the resources to make one, now, as well as a frame of re-enforcement nurse bees about to emerge. I don't want to lose them to varmints before the lab report comes back! Cheerio! CE


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## RalphPierre (May 4, 2016)

I live in South Louisiana.
I have about a dozen hives.
Last year I lost a small hive that also smelled bad.
I didn't know what to do about it...I burned it as a precaution. 
I make my own hives, except for the frames and wax foundation, so the money wasn't that bad
.
A couple of days ago, I smashed on of my bees while she was trying to sting me on the nose....SHE STANK LIKE HELL!
The hive seems a little sick, with some bees dying on the ground in front of it.
I am going to try a test kit...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harvest-Lane-Honey-AFBT-101-Honeybee-Afb-Foulbrood-Test-Kit-/131792286825?hash=item1eaf6eb469:g:ir8AAOSwiYFXHcQd

Also available from Dadant:
https://www.dadant.com/catalog/m00133-american-foulbrood-diagnostic-kit

There are two kinds available...one for AFB, one for EFB.
I intend to keep one of each at all times, and whip one out when I have a suspect problem.
No waiting days or weeks (or maybe never) for a Government inspector to tell you that he is going to Quarantine your Apiary.
Test results, in your hands, in THREE minutes!
(Probably the very same test it takes the Government days or weeks to do)

That being said, the only "treatment" I use on Confirmed foulbrood is a Nice, Hot, Burn-Barrel.
Lose one hive, save your apiary.

I shall update the thread when I get my kits in and complete a test.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Ralph, after reading your post, I did a little googling about testing. 
I found http://www.medinabeekeepers.com/index.php?title=American_foulbrood
which includes 
( quoting )
Holst Milk Test

Invented in 1946, the Holst Milk Test can identify AFB as long as there are active spores. This test works because enzymes from the AFB bacteria produce proteolytic acid which reacts with the proteins in skim milk.

Ahead of time, mix up a 1% solution of powdered milk (about 1/2 tsp powdered skim milk to 1/4 cup water). This should be enough for 12-15 tests.
Put 3-4 ml in a test tube or small glass vial and put it in an inside pocket of your beesuit. (The solution should be warm - ideally 98F.)
Scrape a small sample of scale or diseased larva on a toothpick and drop into the test tube.
Shake well and keep warm. If you have AFB, the enzymes from the scale will make the solution turn clear in 10-20 minutes. 

Note: While a positive result is a reliable sign that you have AFB, a negative result (the solution remained cloudy) could just mean that the spores were not active when you ran the test. 
( end quoting)

I would be very interested in the kits you purchased, how they are used, & how accurate they are.
Please share info, when you get them. Thanks ... CE


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## RalphPierre (May 4, 2016)

I shall bee glad to share any and all information I can glean from my bees.

On another note, some exciting research is being done on using Phages to treat AFB. A Phage is a specific virus that infects the bacterium that causes AFB. It is applied in sugar water and spread on an infected hive. So far, it appears BETTER than any anti-biotics.

Here's a link to a video that explains it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj9_QGBJN0w

Keep learning, and pass on what you learn until the moment you pass on.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>A couple of days ago, I smashed one of my bees while she was trying to sting me on the nose....SHE STANK LIKE HELL!

The diseases that smell are AFB and EFB. The only part of these disease that smell are the infected dead larva (often from a secondary bacteria). Not a pile of dead bees or abounded rotten brood. AFB has a very district smell that an experts may be able to identify. EFB often has no smell. 

>Last year I lost a small hive that also smelled bad. I didn't know what to do about it...I burned it as a precaution. 

Not unnecessary. You need to identify the disease before taking that approach. The only thing a smelly dead out tells you; is its dead. 

>The hive seems a little sick, with some bees dying on the ground in front of it.

That is usually not AFB or EFB. Could be mites (any with deformed wings?) or pesticides.

> am going to try a test kit...There are two kinds available...one for AFB, one for EFB. I intend to keep one of each at all times, and whip one out when I have a suspect problem.

Nothing wrong with that; keep in mind they can give false negatives (seen here on bee source). To be 100% sure you need to send a sample to the lab it's free. But it may help determine what to do while you wait on the lab results.

Here a few things to help you;
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...DkldLOaiDUAu1X1QQ&bvm=bv.122448493,bs.2,d.eWE

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-18a-colony-collaspse-revisited/

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/holst_milk_test.html


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Update , probably the last installment ...
I took a peek in the hive before I left for work ... did not spot Q, QC, or eggs.
apparently the eggs I put in the hive 5-15 progressed on to "older brood" . That was really the only frame I looked at.

My wife called & said the state bee inspector called her. She said that he said the lab could find no disease whatsoever from the sample he sent in.
Well its not foulbrood, at least. It is a pretty sick, mite infested hive though.
Learn as we go .... CE


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