# Bee nutrition---Probiotics for bees??



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

interesting question and the idea would seem to have great possibilities? I am not certain bee nutrition (or beekeepers understanding of bee nutrition) is far enough along at this time to propose an answer???? but.... 

one of the several questions I have had since day one of the cdc thingee john is what part did the shift from terramycin to tylan play in this little drama. I have inquired with folks about 'why' it was recommended almost from day one to return to feeding terramycin but I have never obtained one answer. quite obviously both products should interact in the bees qut to modify the micro flora that abides there (although I would suspect each would effect different flora). I have also inquired with beekeepers who state that they were directly effected by cdc and asked what afb treatment they employed and again silence.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

For those who collect pollen and feed back to the bees in spring......

Can these micro-organisms survive a winter in the freezer? I would suspect not but I don't know. Would this have any detrimental effect on the bees when fed back in the spring without these organisms?

Just a question from someone who is fairly nutrition ignorant but wants to learn.....


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I thought that artical was very interesting. It is hard to pick what type of pollen patties to feed. I was happy to hear that they are still working on a new formula. In the meantime, I would like to get a pollen trap and see if there is any difference.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Chef Isaac said:


> I thought that artical was very interesting. It is hard to pick what type of pollen patties to feed. I was happy to hear that they are still working on a new formula. In the meantime, I would like to get a pollen trap and see if there is any difference.


Chef, I've done no real scientific experiments but here where my observations this past spring.

I fed straight collected pollen and the bees took it very fast....
I fed a pollen mixed with a pollen substitute and they took it very fast....
I fed straight pollen substitute and it was consumed very slowly in comparison to the pure pollen and pollen mixed with substitute.

At a minimum I'll mix pollen with substitute before feeding straight substitute again.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Dan wrote,

>For those who collect pollen and feed back to the bees in spring......

Dan, the fall is the biggest bag for your buck when feeding pollen sub.

We have already started here in Calif with the first round.

Keith


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Dan wrote,
> 
> >For those who collect pollen and feed back to the bees in spring......
> 
> ...


I planned on feeding pollen this fall on some hives to compare.... However they are bringing so much pollen in at the moment that some of my hives are plugged out. My particular locations seem to supply such an abundance of pollen that I have problems (in the spring especially) of getting pollen bound hives. 

I still may try fall feeding on a few hives but they have so much already and goldenrod isn't even blooming yet.. (other than a few early plants)


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Dan Williamson . . .

>they are bringing so much pollen in at the moment . . .
From what plants do you think "this" pollen is coming from "now"?


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Dan: what pollen patties do you recomend and from whast company assuming you havent collected any pollen?


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Dave W said:


> Dan Williamson . . .
> 
> >they are bringing so much pollen in at the moment . . .
> From what plants do you think "this" pollen is coming from "now"?


Dave,

I have no idea. There do appear to be some asters blooming. The pollen is mostly dark orange with a little yellow mixed. I don't see alot of blooming plants and there seems to be alot of pollen given the amount of bloom I'm seeing. I wish I knew for sure where it was coming from. I didn't get this much pollen this time last year. Though I did get alot of pollen from goldenrod last year but virtually no nectar from them. 

I literally have some frames that are 90% pollen.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Chef Isaac said:


> Dan: what pollen patties do you recomend and from whast company assuming you havent collected any pollen?


Chef,

I've tried pollen substitute from Brushy, Kelleys and Mann Lake (Bee Pro) and some from other individuals. I really didn't notice a difference in the speed at which bees have taken them down straight. They all seemed to work well with real pollen mixed in.

I think the key to commercial pollen is the nutrition available in them. Others here are much more knowledgeable about pollen and nutrition than I am. I've just found that real pollen mixed in seems to increase the attractiveness. 

This is just my experience. Others may have had different results.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Dan . . .

>The pollen is mostly dark orange with a little yellow mixed . . .
Sounds like "spring" pollen 

I don't see alot of blooming plants . . .
I dont see ANY!

>there seems to be alot of pollen given the amount of bloom I'm seeing. I wish I knew for sure where it was coming from . . .
Hmmm . . . Your no help 

>pollen from goldenrod . . .
I see some blooming, but not enough to make "frames that are 90% pollen".

Are you feeding syrup now?


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Dave W said:


> Dan . . .
> 
> >The pollen is mostly dark orange with a little yellow mixed . . .
> Sounds like "spring" pollen
> ...


I am not feeding. I haven't fed since early April any of my colonies except some mini mating nucs I was trying to get drawn out by the bees in them.

I rarely feed other than early spring and late fall, even my mating nucs. I just try to take frames of open nectar from my production hives to give them feed. There is still a small amount of soybean bloom but the soybean pollen tends to be more of a pale yellow color not the dark orange I'm seeing. 

I'm not usually much help!


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

"Can these micro-organisms survive a winter in the freezer? I would suspect not but I don't know. Would this have any detrimental effect on the bees when fed back in the spring without these organisms?' Dan Williamson

Dan, it is my understanding that these microbes actually begin to culture when the bees make the bee bread from the pollen in the comb. According to The Hive & the Honey Bee; freezer "...stored pollen gradually loses its attractiveness and nutritive value for bees." This was due to the degradation of two amino acids, lysine and arginine. I think the storage time they used was three years so it may not bee a issue if used the year it was collected.

It has been found that honeybees live longer on pollen removed from combs than on trap collected. This could be due to the three genera of bacterial flora found so far in stored beebread: Pseudamonas, Lactobacillus, and Saccharomyces. This study was done in 1966.

I feel that beneficial microorganisms in the beebread and digestive tract may prove to extremely important. In most other organisms they play a crucial role in nutrient availability and uptake which have profound implication for the immune system. I would like to see this subject studied further. What are the intestinal flora of extremely healthy untreated bees? These organisms are easy to culture and could be supplemented to the bee diet.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

"I'm mentioning probiotics in the next article (in press)--will likely be a "big thing" in the future." Randy Oliver

Cool, looking forward to some additional fresh perspective and research.

tecumseh's point about Tylan is worth researching. The microbiology of the hive seems to be an area needing some new research for the current conditions of modern beekeeping. They very long half-life of Tylan is bound to affect microbe ecology in the hive and the bees digestive tract. I would love to know the affects on the beneficial microorganisms. All of the research I can find on the beneficial microbes is 30 -40 years old.


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## Church (May 31, 2007)

Im a bit confused... are we talking probiotics or pollen??

Most properly prepared probiotics should be kept in refrigeration or can be frozen if prepared in a dry powdered form and depending on the bacteria and methods.

Many of my bacterial samples are dissicated and are kept refrigerated for years without degradation. Colostrum supplies, live vaccines, etc. are best kept refrigerated. 

As far as pollen, I would assume the protein/vitamins and amino acids degrades over time but probably most stable when frozen as well. Refrigeration would allow for mold and some bacterial growth, freezing is the best way to preserve it for low cost. The biggest problem in storage is oxidation, so a vacuum sealer is beneficial as well as keeping it in a dark place. I also recommend nitrogen flushing.

Does anyone have a complete list of the bacterial intestinal flora of bees that would allow growing pure cultures for probiotic use?


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

I am talking about probiotics, the beneficial microbes in the bee bread and digestive tract of the bee. All I know of species/ genera wise are the three mentioned earlier. I think it is time to survey and culture. It would be neat to compare what is growing in robust untreated hives to sickly or ccd hives.


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## Church (May 31, 2007)

Here is a study of isolates taken from hives in the US. 

http://murphylibrary.uwlax.edu/digital/jur/2002/bendel.pdf

At the bottom youll see a list of genera. Its important that each strain (type, species) of bacteria be isolated and identified before cultures are produced for use, so as to not use pathogens.

Note; Lactobacillus is not on the list.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

The species that I cited were listed in The Hive and the Honeybee. The Bendel study is interesting, however it did not deal with the digestive tract specifically. I assume the species added to the bee bread may help the pollen become more digestible and help preserve it for later use.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6978848.stm

"The scientists' trawl revealed a diverse cargo even in healthy colonies. Eight types of bacteria appeared to be present in all bees, suggesting they perform some function useful to their hosts."

Anybody know the effect of tylan on these beneficial microbes? Perhaps the bee gut will benefit from recolonization after treatment. This could make a very big difference in the bees immune system and how it copes with viruses.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

At last some new studies in this area. The recent three part series "The Importance of Microbes in Nutrition and Health of Honeybee Colonies" in ABJ (June, Jul, Aug, 2009) are very interesting but leave more questions than answers. 

"A complete metagenomic analysis of both sick and healthy hives will deepen out understanding of how bees process and preserve their food, obtain nutrition from it, and prevent outbreaks of pathogens that should be commonplace in the hive environment." P757, Aug 2009, ABJ. Does anybody know if this research is funded or under way already? This seems to be a fundamental element of apiculture just waiting to be unlocked. The differences in microbial communities illuminated by the DGGE study are tantalizing, we need more...


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## Natalie (Jan 14, 2009)

This topic was just discussed at a treatment free conference I was at and I asked the presenter if adding probiotics to the hive via a spray bottle (someone requested I ask this since they could not attend) and she said it was a bad idea.
Anything you put in the hive is going to upset the microbial balance and the bees should be allowed to handle this themselves.
You also upset the ph balance of the hive by using certain treatments.
When I say "anything" that includes feeding them sugar or doing powdered sugar dusting.
Sugar has been proven to kill certain microbes in the bees gut. If you are feeding them sugar and then giving them probiotics.....
More on this subject http://www.beeuntoothers.com/NoBeeIsAnIsland.pdf


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## luvin honey (Jul 2, 2009)

Unfortunately, I am unable to open pdf files on this computer...

Natalie, were these recommendations based on research, observation, anecdotal evidence? I find myself thinking both ways on this. In a perfect world, I would agree without hesitation. However, I think of how I care for my family. Since we don't live in a perfect world, I include probiotics in our diets to hopefully boost our health. But, back to the other hand again, do I want hives that require my constant attentoin?

Hard to know what to think about the bees. Research would be so helpful!


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

I suspect that beneficial applications would be for correcting imbalances after exposure to fungicides in pollination contracts and after antibiotic use. There may come a day where we can sample the micro-flora and ascertain deficiencies or just illuminate best management practices that encourage optimal growth of the beneficial micro-flora and the hive itself. There are roles for probiotics in disease prevention and optimized nutrition.


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## Natalie (Jan 14, 2009)

luvin, she states that it was based on experimental data.
This was her early research but it is my understanding she has done more in depth studies on it. I know they commented that they were going to be updating her study soon and she is co writing a book that will address the microbe issues in it as well.
I copied and pasted the study for you and sent it by e-mail since you could not open it.
Its an interesting read and I think there will be more to come on this subject as more studies are done on it.

The problem of using probiotics is that there is currently no way to know what colonies would need it and what type they would need so its a blanket treatment that could upset the balance of a well functioning microbial system in the hive.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_The problem of using probiotics is that there is currently no way to know what colonies would need it and what type they would need so its a blanket treatment that could upset the balance of a well functioning microbial system in the hive. _

That's like saying there is no way of knowing what kids need fresh vegetables, or which veggies they need, so you are advocating not giving fresh veggies to kids...right? 

But we do know certain good bacteria that are present in the hive. If there is a lack of a certain bacteria, giving them a probiotic may correct that imbalance. If they already have the correct levels, it shouldn't make a difference. Bacterial population levels tend to be self regulating based upon what they can feed upon. As soon as you reach 'critical mass' population, adding more bacteria (without giving the bacteria more food to eat) will not cause a sustainable population increase.

So what happens if you add a probiotic and it upsets the balance of an improperly functioning microbial system? Isn't that a good thing?


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