# Old rotten hive body with bees.



## JPK (May 24, 2008)

Can you lift the entire thing onto a new bottom board and a pair of deeps filled with frames/foundation to "allow" them to move down into the new equipment?

If you can (I would suggest getting a helper) they "should" move down into the new space/draw out new comb for the queen to lay in. Once that happens you can pull the old equipment off, move it off to the side and break it up/leave out for them to pull any remaining stores...sorta like putting out frames for the girls to clean up after you extract.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2009)

JPK1NH said:


> Can you lift the entire thing onto a new bottom board and a pair of deeps filled with frames/foundation to "allow" them to move down into the new equipment?
> 
> If you can (I would suggest getting a helper) they "should" move down into the new space/draw out new comb for the queen to lay in. Once that happens you can pull the old equipment off, move it off to the side and break it up/leave out for them to pull any remaining stores...sorta like putting out frames for the girls to clean up after you extract.


Yes I can. I did not know if they would move down or not. I always heard that they move up and never down. I think it would hold a hive body on top for a while longer but not too long and I could tape it good but I'm just not interested in that big mess. thanks...


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

Is there brood in there? Probably. I admit I've never tried this, but this is what I would do, based on advice I have been given for a similar situation that I plan to try next week:

Set up new bottom board and new deep with some frames of comb (if available) or foundation. Have 4-5 empty frames available. Have an extra empty deep available to hold frames "in progress." 

Place old rotten box on top of new box. Now treat it like a cut-out. Using lots of smoke or bee-quick to chase the bees down into the new box, start removing the comb, working from the outside in. Set aside (save) any intact frames of comb. Set aside (in bucket, to feed back later) the honey comb from rotten frames. Take brood comb from rotten frames and rubberband into empty frames, or put into cut-out frames. Continue until rotten box is empty. By this time, the bees ought to be furious.

Remove rotten box. Place intact brood frames or frames of cut-out brood comb in lower box near the outside. Place any intact honey frames at outside, adding or removing your frames from new box as necessary to fill the box. (You can cycle the cut-out frames out over time if you want.)


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## Jorn Johanesson (Mar 30, 2005)

JPK1NH said:


> leave out for them to pull any remaining stores...sorta like putting out frames for the girls to clean up after you extract.


I don’t know how the rules are in USA, but in Denmark this is definitely not allowed. It is not allowed to feed in the free because of the risk to spread diseases. And leaving frames out in the free for the bees to cleanup is feeding in the free.

best regards Jorn Johanesson


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

Jorn Johanesson said:


> I don’t know how the rules are in USA, but in Denmark this is definitely not allowed. It is not allowed to feed in the free because of the risk to spread diseases. And leaving frames out in the free for the bees to cleanup is feeding in the free.
> 
> best regards Jorn Johanesson


Different strokes for different folks.

So, put em in a super and stack 'em on top of the hive for the girls to clean out....their your bees, your frames and your supers......voila...no open feeding.

Does Denmark have laws against bees robbing other hives as well?


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## Jorn Johanesson (Mar 30, 2005)

JPK1NH said:


> Different strokes for different folks.
> Does Denmark have laws against bees robbing other hives as well?


You can't make rules for everything, and if you make one for robbing, then If bees come across this hive, where there are no bees to defend it, the bees for sure will break this rule and if the hive has AFB then the robbing hive will be getting AFB too. If it is a empthy hive, then the owner of this is to blaim for that.

Best regards Jorn


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

The bees build up from january to end of june. The bees condense and move down from july thru end of year. Has to do with daylight hours increasing or decreasing in the times of the year (as well as room in the hive stack and nectar flows). For this time of year, I'd put a deep on top of the rotten stack and see if the bees would move up into it.


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## bermybee (Nov 2, 2008)

007tdp said:


> Yes I can. I did not know if they would move down or not. I always heard that they move up and never down. I think it would hold a hive body on top for a while longer but not too long and I could tape it good but I'm just not interested in that big mess. thanks...


You know I got told the same thing when I first got into beekeeping and i don't no where they came up with this rule:scratch:????????????????? If they have no where to go they WILL build down. And what way do bees build comb?????? every way but up in my experience.


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## bermybee (Nov 2, 2008)

RayMarler said:


> The bees build up from january to end of june. The bees condense and move down from july thru end of year. Has to do with daylight hours increasing or decreasing in the times of the year (as well as room in the hive stack and nectar flows). For this time of year, I'd put a deep on top of the rotten stack and see if the bees would move up into it.


I can't see this :scratch: Please explain. Here is my take on things. Bees eat up and build down. Bees only move up for food, to eat or store. 
If you take off a crop in October/November, then you put empty boxes (say 3 no queen excluder) back on the bottom box (brood camber) is full at this time bees might find some extra food and place it in the box directly above till winter (January). This is when they eat (NOT Build/ Expend) there way up, of curse bringing the brood (queen) with them:gh:. They have no food mind you in the top 2 boxes and they make no attempt to go into them. Then the honey flow kicks in (you say July bit earlier for me but ok) . They then build there way down the brood camber (need more bees to make more honey) before attempting to fill the empty top boxes. When the as the season comes to an end before you take the boxes off the queen cuts back on her laying. Her laying front if I can call it that is moved down, out of the box directly above the brood camber down into the brood chamber of coarse bringing the insulating honey down with it. You take off the honey and the cycle is started again.

opcorn: 

007tdp, Hobie sounds like he knows what going on :thumbsup: Waiting for the bees to move up or down may take a while depending on the strength of the hive/honey flow. Plus yours still left thinking what am i going to do with this rotten box of bees honey and brood (what a waste for you and the bees).

"(007tdp You can cycle the cut-out frames out over time if you want.)" ppphhh save your money and time just be happy if you mange to save the bees. Depending on how you put the comb in the frame the bees should patch it up with in a day or two and you would never know (in about a week). Practice makes perfect after doing about 20 cut outs I know. 
One other piece of advice not sure if you have an ant issue where you are but I cut as much honey off the brood as possible before attempting to rubber band them in empty frame. Just place the honey comb outside the box ,and save you ,bees & the brood from getting any more mucked up then you need .


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

bermybee said:


> Hobie sounds like he knows what going on :thumbsup:


Actually, Hobie just knows how to reiterate instructions given by a person much wiser than myself! Hope it was somewhat clear.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

My suggestion is similar to the others, a new hive body/frames on TOP, and when the queen gets up in there put a queen excluder under the new box so that the queen can't get back up into the old. Then after a couple of weeks you can pull the old stuff off and get any honey out of it.

It'd be easier with the new on top because they do tend to move up, plus they will be easier to check there. 

The trick is catching the queen when she is up there.

Rick


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## bermybee (Nov 2, 2008)

ScadsOBees said:


> My suggestion is similar to the others, a new hive body/frames on TOP, and when the queen gets up in there put a queen excluder under the new box so that the queen can't get back up into the old. Then after a couple of weeks you can pull the old stuff off and get any honey out of it.
> 
> It'd be easier with the new on top because they do tend to move up, plus they will be easier to check there.
> 
> ...


 

This is the long easy way out and yes. You know what they say about easy verses hard. If the queen likes where she is (heat regulation next to entrance) your just Supering up a hive. You might try blocking the regular entrance and moving it to the top:scratch:. The hole point of letting them build up in the top box is to get brood(mainly)/queen (if you have brood they will make anther queen 95% of the time if you kill her when pulling the old box apart to find the her) in the new box.

Hobie's way is the only sure way this happens of curse come with more risk of loosing the bees but if you take your time and the hive is any good you might even get a box or two of honey off them at the end of the season instead of a box of brood mixed in with honey on black comb. Not to mention become a better beekeeper at the same time. Since you are lucky enough to have a box of bees you could use a fume board (instead of too much smoke this will slow there recovery) to drive the bees down while your putting a comb the comb in the frames. You will be surprised how fast they fill out the box with 75% new frames/foundation.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

True, but if they are cramped for space the queen will lay up there as well. (any chance she gets...grrrr) And if she's trapped up above then they will store down below and brood up above.

Yes you could also try to fume them up into that box and use the excluder then. Either way I'd rather not lose any brood that they have now.

Rick


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## bermybee (Nov 2, 2008)

You do have a point seems a bit early to do this. I could be wrong though.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

From January to End of June, days are getting longer and queen is increasing number eggs laid and total population of bees are expanding. If they hit a "top" with a layer of honey across the top, they will tend to swarm more often than not even if room is below. They tend to swarm before moving down to any great extent. If you keep giving room above, they will store above but also expand broodnest up. This is why I say bees build up from January to end of June. 

By the first of July the daylight hours are getting shorter, the broodnest is not expanding, but shrinking thru the rest of the year, if this was an early spring queen or one that has over wintered this past winter. As the broodnest shrinks, honey gets moved above and the broodnest will go down in the stack. If you put an empty on the bottom, as honey gets filled above taking up more space, then they will push down into the box added on the bottom. I call this building down from July thru end of year.

Nectar flow in the area as well as weather conditions will infuence this behavior, of course.

This is what I personally have found over the years in my area here. It's not true 100% of the time, but is true for a great percentage of the time than not. No 2 hives act the same in all respects, and nectar flows with weather and local stressors all influence this behavior, as well as genetics of course.


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## bermybee (Nov 2, 2008)

RayMarler. . Do you migrate your bees? When do you pull your first crop and how often?


Thats so true no two hives are alike even then they still very year to year. Don't even talk about swarming some beekeepers try to prevent it say that it weakens the hive. “The swarm takes all this food with them.” (not in my neck of the woods and my dad and I have broken down hives after we watched them swarm:lookout: just to prove to ourselves this isn’t true) I've had one hive swarm three times in a month and not miss a beat when it comes to honey production and in the mean time still managed to get a box of honey off the two swarms at year end . My dad and I look at swarming as the only way to expand, well that and cutouts especially since we can only order queens and not ponds of bees like you guys in the US.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Hi Bermybee,
No I don't migrate. I just have a handful of hives here, just as a hobby. This year is the third year of drought where I'm at so I don't expect to get much nectar flows after June. I'll be pulling off some honey in June, and feeding my splits for the rest of the year, is what I'm expecting. One a good year with strong hives from over winter, I pull honey off in May or June, and again in end of October if the fall flows were nice to me.

I avoid letting them swarm. Hives I choose for honey I build up brood to two boxes, then cut the brood back to a single box with a queen excluder and stack up a third box. I use all 8 frame deeps. The other hives I use for splits for increase and for summer splits for nucs for over winter as spare queens for any failures. I raise my own queens and make the splits instead of letting them swarm. If they swarm, I may not be the person that retrieves them back, and I want the bees!


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## bermybee (Nov 2, 2008)

RayMarler 

We used to use queen excludes too ,pretty much swear by them until I melted a few of the real flat zinc ones attempting to clean them, well that and the fact some queens will fit though them anyway.inch: I fund also that the queen excluders slowed honey production and by the time we pull in November the brood is only in the last box anyway. The other meager beekeeper (who's been in beekeeping way before my dad and I) pulls in August as well and pays for it if we get a hurricane and in the quality of his honey. However he still doesn't get much more honey then us even with 100 or so more hives. I find that after the bees fill the two or three boxes on the top that we leave them with in the winter if you put the empty boxes underneath the full ones (of curse staying above the brood at all times) there is no real point in extracting the top supers and the honey is still there if the bees need it.


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## Guest (May 11, 2009)

O.k. Here is what I have done! But before I do let me say thank you to hobie and the rest who took time and gave me good advise. I took a hive body with foundation and placed it on top of the old hive body and super and duck taped up the rotten holes. I was hoping the bees would move up. They did somewhat and took their sweet time doing it. After nearly 3 weeks the bees were still not pulling out the foundation and doing basicly nothing up there ( I was very disappointed ). I had a new friend come over who has forgot more about beekeeping than I will ever know and he took a look. We peeled apart the old hive and super and low and behold at the number of bees in that old hive. It was unbelieveable. They looked healthy and was raising brood and storing in that 10 year old comb. My friend got a frame out of the hive body in one piece and placed it in the new hive body up top. He said that "were gonna bait them up here". He put the new frame down below where the old one was. After 36 hours, I went and peeked in the hive and found that 1/3 of the bees were up top and drawing comb like you would believe. Seems the bees just needed a little 'incentive' to go up and that they did. From here I'm gonna run the queen up and put on an excluder and let the girls clear the old stuff and move the new hive down and super up with new from there. Keep your fingers crossed. And thanks again.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Bees move down just fine in my experience. I quit rotating brood boxes a long time ago. In nature, bees move down almost exclusively as no one adds supers for them to move up into.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Jorn Johanesson said:


> I don’t know how the rules are in USA, but in Denmark this is definitely not allowed. It is not allowed to feed in the free because of the risk to spread diseases. And leaving frames out in the free for the bees to cleanup is feeding in the free.
> 
> best regards Jorn Johanesson


Agree - not allowed in Australia as this is the best way to spread AFB ( and more)

Just replace a couple of frames at the time. I have just done this to an old hive I inherited and while it took some time it works well. 
Start out with extracting the honey in say 4 frames in the honey super. Discard these frames after extracting.

Replace the frames with 4 brood frames ( careful to leave the queen behind)

Place new frames with foundation in the brood box.
Repeat ever month until all are new frames


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

this thread is a couple of years old since last post.


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