# Bees Building Comb Between the Frames



## Mushu (May 2, 2015)

I installed this package of Russian Hybrids 2 weeks ago. My setup so far is one 8 frame medium brood box with 7 frames in it plus a frame feeder. I did my first inspection 8 days after installation of the package and noticed on one of the center frames was a piece of comb about 3 inches across between two frames. They also started building off the foundation as well. I knew this wasn't supossed to be there so I chopped it off because there was no brood in it yet. I thought spacing might have done it so I checked spacing and moved the frames closer together. A week later for my second inspection, I opened the hive, removed a frame on the outside with no comb being built on it for spacing. I looked at the problem frame and it got WORSE. The bees built almost a whole frame's worth of comb between two frames that had comb on them already. This had very little on it so I immediately chopped it off and put the frame back in and spaced the frames so that the end bars were touching. I thought this would surely fix the problem. The next afternoon, I took off the telescoping cover to check for ants. (I had seen ants outside the hive and wanted to check inside the cover). Through the oval shaped hole in the inner cover I could see the bees were trying to build comb between the frames AGAIN. Please tell me what I can do to keep this from happening. I don't want my bees to be wasting time building comb where it shouldn't be. Anything helps. Thanks.


----------



## Westhill (Jul 26, 2012)

Newb here, hopefully someone more experienced will chime in, but I have also wondered about this and have seen posts about this recently where people said that in the brood boxes, you don't want to space out the frames at all. Instead, shove them together so the top edges touch. If you have space in the box fromusing fewer frames, have it on the outside of the shoved-together frames. Apparently it is ok to space the frames farther apart in the honey supers, but (i think) only if you already have frames of drawn comb, otherwise there is a risk of them doing cross-comb up there too.

If I am wrong, someone please correct me, thanks.


----------



## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

They want to fill any space larger than the "bee space" with comb and anything smaller with propolis. Push all the frames together and center in the middle of the hive (with the feeder). They usually won't build comb on the outside of the bundle of frames. Of course, your bees may not have read that memo!


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Are you using foundation or are you trying to go foundationless?


----------



## Mushu (May 2, 2015)

I made sure today that the frames were all pushed together as close as possible to eachother. I will post next week when I do my next inspection to see if they have done it again. The comb on the frames may not be drawn out all the way either so they might not have a tight enough bee space even though the frames are together. Should I take a frame from the outside edge and swap it with the problem frame to get them to build comb where it's needed or should I just leave it as it is and see how it goes? I am using duragilt foundation.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Mushu said:


> I am using duragilt foundation.


That's your problem. I know there are those who use it and like it but I have a friend who tried it and his bees did exactly what yours are doing. I almost asked if you were using it in my original post. Somebody will likely jump in here and tell you it will work fine if you do this or that, but if you'll stick some wax or Ritecell foundation in the hive your bees will get down to business as soon as you put it in the hive.

EDIT: The population of bees you got in your package is getting fewer each day. You need to get some comb drawn so the queen can start laying as soon as possible. If you want to drive to Albertville tomorrow afternoon, I'll give you 10 sheets of wax foundation.


----------



## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Mushu said:


> I I am using duragilt foundation.


I also am no fan of any kind of plastic foundation.
I also had the "plan" to standardize on 8 frame medium s
I am fast moving to foundationless. I put some frames in without "starter strips."
The bees homed in on the longest vertical surface & built comb on the bottom edge of that. I pulled out all my crazy combs & sloppy frames, used a utility knife to "dull" the sharp lower corners on the bottm side of the frame top bar. then I ripped down some "thin strips" which I added to the center line of the frame top bars. the knife work is probably overkill, & not effective any way, but I have had enough "crazy comb" to do me.
I also make absolutely sure my hives are level in the active season. ( that probably isnt your problem, in a foundationless hive, it can trigger problems I am told. Good Luck ...CE


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Mushu said:


> I am using duragilt foundation.


Because the cells are not in the plastic and only in the wax, the bees often peel off the wax and reuse it someplace else. Once the wax is gone from the plastic, they never use that spot again. I am gradually replacing all my old Duragilt with Ritecell. It IS possible to re-wax Ritecell because the cells are molded into the plastic and then only dipped in wax.

HTH

Rusty


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Mushu said:


> I am using duragilt foundation.


Why? Was it given to you?


----------



## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

You will need some wax foundation for that hive. 

Move the frames they are building comb in the wrong spot away from each other, they keep finding the wax on the corner and prefer to pull comb from the top down rather than drawing foundation, and your particular group of bees does not like plastic foundation.

I use wax, although I do have some frames with plastic foundation and a friend started with it. In a strong flow our bees draw it out fine, but once the flow slows down they get rather more creative with the plastic than with wax. Not in a good way, either. 

Peter


----------



## Mushu (May 2, 2015)

There is comb drawn out on the frames they are doing this. The first inspection I saw eggs so there should be new bees being made at the moment. I only used dura gilt because my father thought it was a good idea. I'm not using it for my honey supers or my next brood box. I have them already in my frames for the second brood box waiting. I want to take them out and pop in some real wax foundation. Like I said they have comb drawn out there. I'm moving the problem frames apart this weekend. I'll keep updated.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

They are pulling combs between the frames? Do you have the frames pushed tightly together?


----------



## Mushu (May 2, 2015)

I did push the frames as close together as I could during my second inspection of the hive. I do think though that they aren't taking wax from any other frames. I think that they are just making wax there. The comb drawn out from the foundation isn't all the way drawn I think. If they keep doing this it won't be such a big deal because it is in a brood box. They might actually build this comb between the frames and end up having no space to make it thicker. Hopefully they realize there isn't enough space for them to do this and tear it down. I am getting new foundation for all my other frames that I have. Like I said this is just a brood box so I won't be having to move things around too often but for inspections. It really doesn't seem like that big of a problem. I'm going to the coop this week to get new foundation.


----------



## tpope (Mar 1, 2015)

I would rather have messed up comb in my supers than my brood box. The brood box is where I WILL be moving things around when I need to find the queen and or a few good frames to make up a nuc from.
I tried duraglit some years back. The bees did OK on drawing most of it when hived from a package. They did not draw the outside frames correctly as they had robbed that wax to use else where. I lost that hive to mites and wax moths took care of the drawn comb. The duraglit is not reusable at this point. I went to rite cell and wax foundation combo. I use a small bit of wax to ensure that the bees draw it out in the correct spot on a frame trying for foundationless. The rite cell works fine during a good flow. Either way the bees have a defined starting point for their reference...


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Mushu said:


> It really doesn't seem like that big of a problem.


They won't make more space to raise brood in, they've got to keep bee space correct. They will make places for queen bees and queen cells to hide. It will be impossible to assess the quantity of brood in the hive. Actually if they're pulling comb from the edge of the frame then the comb will eventually cross over to the frame next to it. You'll wind up with 10 frames bonded together by comb that you can't remove from the hive body, so you won't be able to to an inspection of any sort on the brood nest. It is a problem.


----------



## forrestmohrman (Apr 27, 2015)

Hi All, 

Two weeks have gone by since the install. 75 here today.

I opened up the hive this afternoon and found a surprise. In the space between the frames where the queen cage was the bees have constructed their own full frame of natural comb. It was fully drawn out both sides and the queen was laying on it. It is the size of an entire frame. It is connected to the inner cover. 

The book says to cut any burr comb off. Should I leave it or get it gone. 

Other than the fact that it is not freely mounted on its own frame it looks identical to the neighboring frames. Could it be mounted to a frame?

Bud


----------



## Mushu (May 2, 2015)

Thanks for all the help guys. Since the frame that this is being built on has drawn comb, I don't think that the foundation is too much of the problem altough I will be changing it out for wax foundation. I have the frames pushed all the way together as well. I just don't know why they would keep doing this. The bee space should be fine if they are pushed together right? Also should I keep tearing down their comb that they build between the frames?

EDIT: I'll try and post a picture of the problem if it's still there next week so y'all can get a better picture of what's actually going on here.


----------



## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

forrestmohrman said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Two weeks have gone by since the install. 75 here today.
> 
> ...


You need to get this cleaned up. You will need empty frames and rubber bands. Carefully slice off the new "laying" comb connected to the inner cover, trim if necessary to fit in the empty frame, and mount it with rubber bands into the empty frame. Make sure the orientation is maintained. Also clean up the remainder of the frames. Those frames that have "fat" comb move to the outside of the frame group. Modify the remainder of the frame comb so that you can keep the frames butted against each other. You will have to keep after this hive to get it straightened out.


----------



## Mushu (May 2, 2015)

I've officially declared my bees mentally handicapped. I had a little peek just now and they are STILL building the comb between these frames regardless of the fact that the frames are pushed together completely and they have built comb on the plastic wax coated foundation and that they have PLENTY of space to buildin on other frames elsewhere. Anybody have any quick fixes before I swap foundation and move the problem frame to the outside of the broodbox or go completely insane watching my bees be so busy building comb in the most useless spot ever?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I've officially declared my bees mentally handicapped. 

Take out the duragilt. Turn the wedges and nail them back in. Shave 1/16" off of each side of each end bar and put 8 frames plus the feeder in. I've never seen bees that LIKED duragilt... The problem is that it is wax on top of slick plastic. The bees trying to work the bottoms of the cells try to work as a team from both sides to thin down the bottom. I think with solid plastic, they get that it won't work, but with duragilt they think it should and it doesn't. The plastic messes them up. They will build fins on duragilt. They will build combs between duragilt. They will build a comb out from the face of the durgilt. They hate duragilt. Your bees are not the only ones...


----------



## Mushu (May 2, 2015)

Thank you SO MUCH. I never thought to sand the sides of the end bars. I don't have wedged frames though. I will sand the end bars and put an extra frame in. Thanks again.


----------



## Chicomon (Mar 30, 2015)

Hey Brad
Newby here and am in this thread because my girls of two weeks are doing just this and I figured that it might be a potential problem. I inspected the brood box for the second time yesterday and they are crossing over and building frame to frame. I can see the potentiality of one big block of bees and wax. How do we rectify this?
Any advice is greatly appreciated. 
Thanks.

Chico Neyrey
Charleston SC


----------



## Mushu (May 2, 2015)

Are you going foundationless or using a foundation? What kind of foundation are you using?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I inspected the brood box for the second time yesterday and they are crossing over and building frame to frame.

More information would be helpful, but usually this is a combination of spacing (they should be tightly together in the center) or you are doing foundationless with no comb guides. One way or the other those combs should be cut loose and rubber banded into frames so they are straight. One bad comb leads to another. One good comb leads to another.


----------



## Rebel Rider (Mar 26, 2015)

Rubber bands? Pics? Anyone?


----------



## forrestmohrman (Apr 27, 2015)

Mushu said:


> Are you going foundationless or using a foundation? What kind of foundation are you using?


We are using the plastic foundation in which you rub the bees wax onto for them to get started. They are drawing the comb on the frames but it was the big gap between frames that was the problem. You know where the queen cage was sitting......there was no frame and like a 2" gap for two weeks because of the extreme m cold weather. So now we cut off the large narrow comb which acted like a frame and disposed of it. We did install the other two missing frames now but have lost the brood and the nectar that was started. We will not leave such a large gap next time nor go such a long time without inspection.

bud and barb


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Rubber bands? Pics? Anyone?

https://www.google.com/search?q=rub...HosAXytYDoDg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAw&biw=1027&bih=577


----------



## Rebel Rider (Mar 26, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >Rubber bands? Pics? Anyone?
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=rub...HosAXytYDoDg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAw&biw=1027&bih=577


Thanks Micheal, I will try without first but keep this in my bag of tricks. still waiting for my nucs.


----------



## Mushu (May 2, 2015)

I inspected today to do a fix. I used a plane to narrow my frames so I could fit all 8 plus a frame feeder in. I stuck a narrowed frame between the frames that the wacky comb was being built. The smaller space should fix it plus brand new 100% beeswax foundation. They now have capped brood and the queen is laying nicely it appears. I think my problem should be fixed now. I also replaced 4 of the outside frames' foundation with the 100% wax ones. Thanks for all your help.


----------

