# 2nd year, buy packages or Nuc's



## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

I started in the spring with 3 packages, they are doing well so far and I am hopeful that I will get them through the winter. I want to get to 10 hives total, and was thinking about starting 3 more this spring from scratch. Should I buy packages again or is it better to buy nuc's now that I know a little about what to expect throughout the year?


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I would buy Nucs if you can afford them and they are available. I am assuming they were overwintered Nucs. Probably cost a little more than packages but they are likely to build up faster and deliver a crop of honey. Randy Oliver sells Nucs and some of the people who bought them this year were able to get them before packages were available. 

If your hives make it through the winter in good shape, you can also split them.


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## photobiker (Mar 23, 2015)

I think based on your experience from this year I would get packages. Take the money saved by not buying nucs and buy additional boxes, frames and hardware as needed to support the 3 additional packages. Since you had good success this year you will have some frames of brood and maybe some left over honey and pollen from the existing hive to give the new girls a head start. If not at least you can give the new hives some drawn comb to save them that effort.

We'll hope you have good success this winter.

Myself this year I started with one hive, added another a month later. Lost one to mites this month, won't make that mistake again, but next year I am starting with one package and a nuc from a local keeper.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Why not split? If you are happy with what you got split or wait till they try to swarm.


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## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

jcolon said:


> Why not split? If you are happy with what you got split or wait till they try to swarm.


I am not opposed to splitting and most likely will if they come through all right (maybe a 3:5 split). I would like to add some new colonies though, and try to get to 10 by the end of the year, as I have plans to do this with my children and make enough honey for them to sell locally for some business training.


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## CardsBees (May 14, 2013)

Why not "split" the difference?

Make splits from 2 hives (assuming you overwinter well) and pick up 2 nucs? If nothing else, for the experience. That would get you close to your goal and you might even get some honey. If you have existing drawn comb (say if a hive or two does not make it), then you could save some money and get packages. Even early packages can do well with drawn comb.


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## johnmcda (Aug 10, 2015)

Much better to start from Nucs. You get 5 frames already drawn, couple of frames of brood, a proven queen, some stores and a pile of bees. Way ahead of a package. If you get your order in early enough to receive the Nuc early in the spring, should make some honey.


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## Honey Hive Farms (Nov 1, 2012)

Buy packages, new queen (if buy packages from the correct person) the queens lay up to 15 days.
Nucs, you never know what the foundation has been through, and we believe after 3 years the mites within the hive / frames is higher...
Just my thoughts., best of luck either way.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Honey Hive Farms said:


> Buy packages, new queen (if buy packages from the correct person) the queens lay up to 15 days.
> Nucs, you never know what the foundation has been through, and we believe after 3 years the mites within the hive / frames is higher...
> Just my thoughts., best of luck either way.


If is a mighty big word nowadays in regards to package bee queens.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

You'll learn so much more building from your own and you're less likely to get over your head.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Buy the 3 package of bees this season. Then use those
bees to increase your production colonies bee numbers to get you
some honey for your kids. Watch out for swarming though.
Then put the old queens in a small 3-way nuc so that they are
in a temporarily holding place. Just before the flow is over you can
even out the hives and prepare for the coming winter. When
you have a very strong hive you can make a small split so that
they can raise a new queen too. Or you can make the new splits along
with a new order mated queen. There are so many ways to do this if you 
know how. I like the flexibility and creative side of beekeeping.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Provided you have been monitoring your colony health going into winter and especially varroa and treated them accordingly, you may not have any bees in the springtime to worry about OTHERWISE. you will be hard pressed to keep up with making splits until you have enough bees to drive you nuts....

WARNING: *1st year is a snap until your 2nd spring *( 2016) when you have to deal with SWARMING. 

Forget buying anything at all. 

If you don't learn about swarming and how to make splits and introducing mated queens or making your own queens you will be in for a WORLD of hurt. Will you be harvesting honey next year?

I would start making your equipment or buying your equipment NOW, enough for 3 more hives and stuff to make or raise NUCs. MARCH will be here before you know it....wait FEBRUARY will be here before you know it and you will be playing catch-up and then WHAMMMm!!!!

Hate to ask...but what are your mite counts for each hive right now?

keep us informed


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

The saying goes you can make bees or you can make honey. The reality is that you need lots of bees to make extra honey for you. If you start feeding the bees pollen sub and sugar in Feb for a while before your early flowers start they will get lots of bees who will get you lots of honey. You need to keep on top of them so they don't swarm and you lose your extra workforce. Split after the solstice for your #'s increase. If you buy nucs or packages you can have your 10 hives next year that are strong enough to split some of them and keep some as honey producers. As you see everyone has their own strategy and you get to pick the one you want to try this year. Good Luck.


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

Set out some bait hives. Catching a swarm is way more fun than buying!


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

He is a first year bee owner until he comes through winter. Catching feral colonies may be fun if you have some notches on your belt but not when one is first starting out.


larryh said:


> Set out some bait hives. Catching a swarm is way more fun than buying!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Like I said beekeeping is very flexible. The 3 to 5 lbs. package of bees should instantly
boost the hive population into foraging mode. The hives that does not build queen cells will
be use for production hives. The ones that build the swarm queen cells can be use as splits for
another nuc hive. Dedicate one hive for honey production. This will teach you how to spot the swarm cells every week or so. Keeps everything small and
manageable.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Agreed! No need to run when you need to stabilize yourself first.
Need to get all the basics under your belt before attempting
the next level. Don't be like me killing more bees in my first
year than raising them and dealing
with the aggressive bees thinking that that was what beekeeping should
be. There are more gentler bees I can keep that I learn later on. Walk before you run!


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

Double posted


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

vdotmatrix said:


> Catching feral colonies may be fun if you have some notches on your belt but not when one is first starting out.


Why is that?
I guess I missed class that day 

I caught my first bees before my packages arrived last spring. Not true.. my very first bees were a cutout I did the week before.. I don't recommend doing a cutout before you've even handle a frame, but I don't regret it in the least. They are doing very well BTW.
In my experience, the caught bees have been easier than the bought bees. I hope to never buy packages again.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Larry, not all new beekeepers are like you the first time.
Some are a bit scare when it comes to keeping bees for the first time.
They do not know how to set up a swarm trap not to mention keeping their
first hive alive through the winter time. It is too overwhelming just worrying about
the one or few hives they have already. Many are struggling because they
simply do not know and nobody is around to guide them through. My first 2 hives
died before the early winter. I was at zero bee knowledge at that time. Didn't even know what nurse bees was. Yes, knowing what I know now I can do many but not
before. The first season new beekeeper need to take the baby steps in order to learn the how to first because not everybody learn at the same pace like you do. When problems arise they don't know how to handle them without someone to guide them along. If it is so easy to trap bees using a bait hive then we don't need to buy bees anymore. Someone once mentioned all season long and he did not get a swarm but set out many traps for them. So not all locality have the swarms for you to trap either. For me to trap them I have to drive 30 minutes away into the bee farm country but not in the inner city. Just no way to see any swarms here.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Not to BEE ganging up on Larry, but I remember freaking out when the bees would BEARD and loose sleep. 

I understood early on how important it was to monitor varroa and treat for varroa as needed. 

I thought I had this thing licked until spring came a long the 2nd season and the swarming phenom occurred. 

BLIND SIDED OMG......... 

But it was cool ...I heard queens piping. I transferred queen cells. I moved frames on new eggs into a a queenless colony and watched them make another queen....

there was a lot of wasted time futzing around waiting for foragers to develop (40days) through about differnt hives in the yard.. 

IT IS A LOT OF FREAKING work during the year to NOT monitor your hives for VARROA and they die before winter cuz you didn't treat them and thus remain a bee owner and not a bee keeper....I digress......

SO NO, there is NO time for anything other than survival during the first full year, doing stuff on the calendar for your area, observing your hives, learning to get on the bees schedule, accept that each hive is individual, help the bees when they need it and leave them alone to be bees; they think just getting through the winter was an accomplishment....it is but springtime flow comes up really fast and then the BEES hit the fan.....and your hairs is on fire and they'll remember this rambling post.....



beepro said:


> Larry, not all new beekeepers are like you the first time.
> Some are a bit scare when it comes to keeping bees for the first time.
> They do not know how to set up a swarm trap not to mention keeping their
> first hive alive through the winter time. It is too overwhelming just worrying about
> ...


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, I totally agree with you.
If we don't learn to manage the bees they will
manage our emotions, eventually. I didn't even learn
about varroa management until my 3rd season with only one last
small hive remaining. The mites got them all. But started afresh with less than
one frame of bees and a new queen after the first 2 aggressive AHB died.
Yes, beekeeping can be emotional losing many nights of sleep when you are still
new. Like you I learned to let go when the bees are happy. And only intervene when necessary for the mite treatments. Not going to lose anymore bees this time around.
Happy bees make a happy beekeeper! Maybe we should start a thread about how newbees feel about their bees the first year.


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

I'm still not clear why you think a caught swarm requires a more advanced skillset than a bought colony. It makes no sense to me. 
But then.. I'm that first year idiot that lost a hive BEFORE winter even arrived.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Well put beepro well put!:applause:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm not saying that getting free bees is not good. Focus more on managing them once
you have acquired them either from a bait hive or the bought bees.
I'm simply stating that as new beekeepers we should stick with
what we have in the first season to learn the basics of beekeeping.
Tracking the beehive from expansion to contraction through out the entire
4 seasons is very important to a new beekeeper like myself. Sure you 
can bait as many hives as you can. But without learning the basics of the
bee management then you have to keep on baiting them. One can learn the 
basics of bee baiting though only the long term sustainable way will let you keep
bees for the next generation to come. I like Mike Palmer's sustainability model of beekeeping on you tube vids. I don't want to continue to bait bees and
certainly don't want to buy anymore bees. But if you can do it more efficiently than I can so be it. In the end whether it is a bait or bought hive you still need to know how to manage them from expansion to contraction all year long. Once you have learned the basics and everything is under your control the feeling is not the same as a first year lost lost beekeeper like I was before.
I don't know what else to say if you don't understand that as new beekeepers we need to learn the basics first before going to the next lessons. You see how the OP caution about the expansion from 3 to another 3 for a total of 10 hives. He did not say oh, I have 10 hives now and wanted 50 more in the next season, for example. So grow and learn accordingly. Some had grown from one hive to a full blown commercial now posted here as a model for us to see.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

After your first season, you are thinking about buying more bees. Buy them. Some just don't rear their own. I know a guy that has been a beek for over ten years and he still buys his loses and maybe one or two more extra. Somebody has to buy our packages and nucs, right.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

The advice I got (mainly Michael Palmer's talks) was to buy local bees where possible. I am lucky enough to have a great source just up the road, but there are good reasons for doing this.
I started with 2 nucs, and got going late because of the weather, and I plan to double up each year. I'm more interested in building up my colonies and knowledge than selling a lot of honey to begin with, so I plan on doing some artificial swarms next year, possibly replacing if colonies don't over Winter. Year 3, I will get into some honey sales, grafting, over Wintering nucs, etc.
Before I got bees, I didn't see a single Apis Melliflera around my place, so at some point, I will likely have to keep an eye on genetics. I'm lucky to have a guy up the road that has 5 different lines of Buckfast bees, and raises around 3,000 queens a year.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

beepro said:


> Sure you can bait as many hives as you can. But without learning the basics of the bee management then you have to keep on baiting them.


Until I got my own bees, I never saw a bee on my property, so I probably wouldn't have a lot of success trapping swarms as a method of increasing colonies. I certainly agree on learning the trade first. There are many ways to do things, and you have to not only understand bees, but figure out what works for you. As a new beek, I can afford to replace half my hives if I make a mistake with 2-4, but the same mistake with 10 or 20 would be a big hit. As you say, baby steps are good. I also spent over a year researching and reading, and spent time working with a local beek before the first bee ever got to my yard.
Like you, I think, my aim is to develop a completely self-sustainable operation, and once I can do that, I will think about making some money.


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

beepro said:


> I'm not saying that getting free bees is not good. Focus more on managing them once
> you have acquired them .


Ok, I guess I misinterpreted..
I've read norcal's posts because he's practically a neighbor. I am sure he's quite smart and focused enough to handle a few more colonies. 

I suggested baiting because it's surprisingly fun, and I think that it's a good alternative. There's a chance the bees can be better from a survival standpoint. My packages certainly didn't handle the season as well as the local "feral" bees I caught. Just having them for a comparison was an excellent experience. To me the swarms are somehow more satisfying than a package. Just my opinion, based on my own very minimal experience.

Raising your own bees...I'm looking forward to that!


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

> My packages certainly didn't handle the season as well as the local "feral" bees I caught.


I know where I live, most of the packages come from Australia or Hawaii, so when they get here, they immediately ask for the fur lined snuggies. Even our local bees don't really get going until mid-morning, and they pretty much shut it down by supper time. I know my friend up the road bought 10 Australian packages last year and lost half of them over the Winter, so we'll see.


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