# New Post Office Plans and Bees



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

More work for UPS.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Maybe you will have to reveal what the plans are in order to get comments.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Listen to NPR and you will hear about PO plans for the future. Slowing down First Class Mail and closing a number of POs and 5 day delivery.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I won't be sending any more queens via USPS. This last year was just too much, and I've shipped queens with them for years both Priority and Express. It used to be they'd delay a Priority package a couple days on a rare occassion. Last year it became almost routine. So I switched most shipments to Express which is trackable.

Trouble is, they lost a shipment of queens to Keene, NH and didn't have a clue where they went. Tracking didn't help. Nothing helped until they arrived at the Keene PO on Sunday...shipped on Wednesday. I could have drove there in 2 1/2 hours. So they knew when they left St. Albans and got to Essex and then White River. Where they were after that is a total mystery to them. Nice tracking guys.

Another one got there after the invoice, mailed first class. I'm a little nervois about UPS and their not guaranteeing temperature control. Anyone else ship queens UPS? FedEx?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Maybe you will have to reveal what the plans are in order to get comments.


How about purchasing a computer, and then allow the energy of your boundless curiosity to guide you on a wonderful voyage of discovery... 

Or listen to NPR.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Last time I tried shipping bees with UPS they refused the shipment. Have they changed their no bee policy?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

OK, you got me I don't listen to NPR and I have yet to find anything on the net that would affect track-able shipments through the USPS. So maybe some of you guy listening to the sensational headlines on NPR could come up with some details that affect shipping bees.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Russell's sent me 2 queens this year Express mail- 2 day guarantee. They sat 3 days in a warehouse in Minn. before getting here (Ohio) in 5 days. I could have driven to Miss. and back.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ace, you have google at your disposal. See what's out there about the US postal cuts.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

I gave up on the USPS years ago. They were just too unreliable with just about anything I shipped! UPS will ship bees although their official policy is that they provide no insurance on shipping lives. UPS is also variable in getting live animals into their shipping system, but once you find a UPS store or UPS terminal that will accept them, take good care of them! I take all of my shipments to a UPS store a mile from my house and ask them to hold the bees until their last pickup of the day which then goes directly to the airport terminal for next day delivery. Next day air is expensive for shipping via UPS, but well worth the peace of mind for me. They have not lost or killed a package yet and can tell me exactly where a shipment is at all times. UPS will deliver a package of queens for me anywhere in the US in less than 24 hours.

Another thing that has provided me greater peace of mind, especially when shipping in warmer weather is shipping the queens to a UPS store or terminal. For next day air, most shipments arrive at their destination terminal or store early in the morning. They can then be held until the customer comes to pick them up so that they do not ride around in the heat all day. 

Keep in mind, UPS does not have to accept live animals and will not provide insurance. It has worked out well for me to develop a good relationship with the UPS store and keep them well supplied with honey!


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## REN (May 7, 2011)

Just for you, Ace!

I found it right on CNN's homepage, though I'd already heard it on NPR.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/05/news/economy/postal_service/index.htm?iid=HP_LN&hpt=hp_t2


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

JSL said:


> I take all of my shipments to a UPS store a mile from my house and ask them to hold the bees until their last pickup of the day which then goes directly to the airport terminal for next day delivery. Next day air is expensive for shipping via UPS, but well worth the peace of mind for me. They have not lost or killed a package yet and can tell me exactly where a shipment is at all times. UPS will deliver a package of queens for me anywhere in the US in less than 24 hours.


Only caged queens can legally be shipped by air. Packages and nucs have to be shipped over the road. Imagine the liability involved if a person were to talk a ups agent to accept a package of bees for air mail and they got loose on the plane? Plane diverted to nearest airport... yikes...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

REN said:


> Just for you, Ace!
> 
> I found it right on CNN's homepage, though I'd already heard it on NPR.
> http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/05/news/economy/postal_service/index.htm?iid=HP_LN&hpt=hp_t2


Thanks but I already read a bunch of these and they all say LETTERS. Do you mail your bees in a letter or do you get your bees in a letter. Duh, jobs lost, of course. It is a lack of business causing the cut backs. Nobody uses snail mail anymore. You have to beg and usually pay to get a hard copy statement from a bank now a days.


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## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

Yahoo News

NPR


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## toomanyhandles (Jun 24, 2009)

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=US+postal+cuts


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Right, LETTERS. Who sends bees in letters?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I run a small business growing and selling tomato plants over the internet. They are packaged in boxes that are 12 inches per side cubes and shipped via USPS priority mail. They do best if delivered in 3 days which just happens to be the exact amount of time priority mail usually takes. The changes being considered include changing delivery of priority mail from 2 or 3 days to as much as 5 days. Since I am shipping live plants, you can bet your boots that there will be problems with deliveries and I will have to replace a lot of plants. Fedex is my backup shipping service, but it costs almost exactly twice as much as USPS. So am I worried? You bet.

DarJones


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## REN (May 7, 2011)

> Thanks but I already read a bunch of these and they all say LETTERS. Do you mail your bees in a letter or do you get your bees in a letter. Duh, jobs lost, of course. It is a lack of business causing the cut backs. Nobody uses snail mail anymore. You have to beg and usually pay to get a hard copy statement from a bank now a days.


Sorry, Ace. I'm still a rookie beekeeper. Cut me some slack! I'm lucky that I live near so many apiaries that sell bees. So, I usually just get in my pickup and drive over to pick up my bees. I'm glad I learned from this thread, though. If I ever get enough experience and hives and decide to sell bees, I'll be sure not to send them in LETTERS!

By the way, if there are any experienced beekeepers in northern CA near Red Bluff that would be willing to help show me the ropes, I'd sure appreciate the mentoring. I've got a strong back and a good work ethic that I'd be willing to supply in trade.

Bob


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## themrbee (Oct 20, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> I'm a little nervois about UPS and their not guaranteeing temperature control. Anyone else ship queens UPS? FedEx?


I always get my Qs shipped ups red. no problem from ca to NY next day


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Anyone else ship queens UPS? FedEx?


I have not shipped queens, but I have shipped thousands of other items as well as received many. Just a friendly warning. Stay away from Fed Ex. Their express service is good but otherwise they will actually let packages set in a warehouse until the day they say it will be delivered. 30 minute drive from my house for three days and they woudl not let me come get it. Fed Ex has always been horrible.


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

This is particularly frustrating to me. 

My location is considered an 'outpost' by both USPS and UPS. I have found that USPS Priority Mail is the most reliable for me - even over UPS. 

UPS package bees and queens routinely get 'lost' on their way to our location. I ordered queens from Koehnen's a couple years back and Koehnen's insisted on UPS overnight. Eight days later I got the queens. You can guess how they performed. That is pretty typical of UPS service to our area.

USPS Express is no better. Last year - spring queens shipped Express from HoneyRunApiaries were lost for 6 days. Every single nuc that they went in failed and was dead in a month.

What it boils down to for me (at my location), is that anything that gets put on a plane on its way to Belfield ends up getting lost.

Priority mail though goes only by truck. I have never had a problem with a queen or package shipped Priority. It takes all three days, but they have always arrived on the third day. 

Problem is convincing some of the package and queen suppliers that Priority really is the best way to my location. If they won't ship Priority (at my risk of course), I can't take the chance buying from them.

Mike


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

bluegrass said:


> Only caged queens can legally be shipped by air. Packages and nucs have to be shipped over the road. Imagine the liability involved if a person were to talk a ups agent to accept a package of bees for air mail and they got loose on the plane? Plane diverted to nearest airport... yikes...


Koehnen's ships 3 lb packages only by UPS next day air


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, that post didn't make sense to me, since package bees have been shipped by air so much that Airlines know not to turn them w/ the can in the feed holes down position. It doesn't take too many times before they learned that.


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## MeriB (Mar 15, 2010)

According to NBC, CBS, ABC and Fox, the Po plans on closing almost half of the regional mail distribution centers as a cost cutting measure. There will be no guarenteed next day day mail delivery.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I believe that is for letters only. Box/carton mailing is not part of this cut.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

First Class Mail will be effected. Packages don't go First Class? Only Letters?


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I dont ship anything through the USPS. I used to raise exotic ducks and the two times I shipped them using USPS the birds showed up dead. I went into the local post office and the gal that took them in her posession basically shrugged her shoulders and said "oh well". I contacted her boss and laid the story down.......lets just say that the next time I went into the post office to get my refund on shipping (lost $100 in birds) that same lady was very remorseful about the loss of the birds and I told her to keep her academy award and give me my money.


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## toomanyhandles (Jun 24, 2009)

bluegrass said:


> Only caged queens can legally be shipped by air. Packages and nucs have to be shipped over the road. Imagine the liability involved if a person were to talk a ups agent to accept a package of bees for air mail and they got loose on the plane? Plane diverted to nearest airport... yikes...


This statement isn't correct. I have (relatively) recently received packages in Michigan sourced in California, shipped UPS next-day air.

Try this: Ship a package of live bees from CA to an office of software developers in Michigan.
EVERYONE knows when the UPS guy arrives.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I am waiting to see what it does to Priority Mail shipping - I've been shipping with them for 11 or 12 years, a couple of busted boxes a year, but generally 2 day delivery anywhere in the U.S. BUT I don't ship live product. Postal service tracking is free on Clicknship, which is good because it is useless. The post office is not required to scan tracking on receipt (shipping) of a clicknship package. I've had one damaged in handling get all the way back to me (minus contents) without being scanned once.

I continue to use USPS because of the price, not the quality of service. I do not do sufficient volume to get a discount from UPS or FedEx, and my profit margin is too lean, customers gripe about shipping costs now. I am gradually shutting down all but one category of item shipping anyway. The invention of Amazon and Ebay has products being sold online below my cost, with discounted shipping. I just happen to sell one category of items that aren't there YET. When they get there, all my shipping goes away. Can't say I'll miss it. 

As I see what the ACTUAL results of the cuts are, I'll try to post them. I ship a couple of Priority Mail boxes a week, sometimes more. (then again I do not ship queens)

And yes, FedEx is pretty horrible. I receive stuff from them from one vendor that has them horse-whipped into prompt delivery. Everything else is late and torn up.

Gypsi


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

This morning got a notice from a supplier that my order from them would be delayed as Fedex cannot locate my address. Fedex has been here many times before.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A GPS problem?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Don't know. GPS is notoriously inaccurate out in rural hills and hollers around here but google maps comes up with accurate directions to here.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> First Class Mail will be effected. Packages don't go First Class? Only Letters?


They do but they don't go guaranteed next day. First Class can take up to 10 days with no tracking. I like to here from anyone that got something shipped from CA going to NY First Class and got it in one day. Sometimes you would get a first class letter within a local mailing zone that took one day but across the country, forget about it.
Isn't private industry suppose to do any job the government does cheaper? Well here is your answer. Somebody has to pay. I would rather spend the money on health care for the needy but in all likelihood it will go to some Arab state where we don't belong.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

cg3 said:


> This morning got a notice from a supplier that my order from them would be delayed as Fedex cannot locate my address. Fedex has been here many times before.


Did you change your phone number? Fedex doesn't read the address, it reads the phone number associated with the address. Which is why my fedex packages with an old phone number ended up neatly delivered to the new holder of my old phone number.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

How long is that going to work when most people have given up their land lines?


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Ask FedEx. I have to keep my landline - need the fax for some accounts. But I raked FedEx over hot coals and made sure the phone numbers were correctly tagged after that adventure.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I just had FedEx deliver a package. I have no land line.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Maybe they use addresses in Illinois? Or maybe they have changed their system over the last 2 or 3 years. It was at least 2 years ago when I straightened them out. I also receive packages as a business.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

More than likely the local delivery truck driver knew your name and the package got placed on his truck without looking at the address. Even with the USPS my personal mail would get delivered to where I worked because someone in the post office knew my name and assumed it was company related. It didn't stop happening until I notified the company receptionist who was responsible for mail. Her nick name was Lobby Nazi because she had rules and nobody broke them.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Well, it's still not here but I'm going to guess that it's a new driver. Fedex is 50 miles away, down in the flatlands where streets are in grids and road numbers make sense. It can be humbling to try and find an address first time in the hills. Many duplicat road names, twisty roads, etc. When suppliers or salesmen want to show up at our jobsites you have to ask them if they know where they're going. They usually say it's Ok because i have Gps. Expect a call about an hour late from a guy who says "I'm at an intersection with a red barn on one corner and a bunch of junk cars on the other, how do I get to you?" This hardly narrows it down.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

On the other hand, the UPS and USPS guys are all local and not only do they know the way to your house, they know gossip about everybody around.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

It's here, had to laugh because I got that phone call again. Temp. driver hired for Christmas rush. My best luck so far has been UPS.


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## DutchBee (Jul 14, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Listen to NPR and you will hear about PO plans for the future. Slowing down First Class Mail and closing a number of POs and 5 day delivery.


I heard the news as well, and I am sure the tax subsidized US Mail system is close to being bankrupt but I am sure that our current Administration will just increase our taxes so the inefficient US Mail can stay alive. I would not ship a fruit cake let alone something important like my bees through the US Mail.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Oh contraire Dutch. The Post office takes in more money than it spends on its branches, personnel and services, but it has that little $5 million dollar annual contribution (please check amount, I'm in the middle of the Texas Board of Insurance complaint process) that was set up by Congress back in the 80's or 90's, and that little contribution goes straight into general funds and is not rolled back into postal operations. The post office pays taxes. They can't pay taxes, they have to lay people off, just like any other business. Now back to my regularly scheduled efforts to recover damages from an accident I did not cause.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

cg3 said:


> On the other hand, the UPS and USPS guys are all local and not only do they know the way to your house, they know gossip about everybody around.


You must live in a REALLY small town. I'm not sure what Fort Worth's population is but I'm pretty sure there isn't much gossip between the 2.


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## woodyard (Apr 12, 2005)

I must reply to some of the statements that have been made. The postal service does not operate on any tax money. It runs on its fees for postage. It is mandated by law to not make a profit, but break even and so in the good times it can't bank funds to make up for the bad times in recessions. It has been required to prefund future retiree funds with an excessive amount compared to other entities. This is the main reason it is in the red now. Also that contribution Gypsi is referring to is $5 billion, not million. It has many problems since it is a semi government agency that congress keeps messing with. The regulations take forever for anything in the postal service to change unlike in private business. Everyone has a bad experience story with the postal service,but for the hundreds of billons of pieces of mail moved in a year it is really amazing that the vast majority get there on time and to the correct address. I think that most people will not realize how important the postal service is until after it is practically gone. There are a lot of private sector jobs directly dependent on the postal service being there.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Thank you Woodyard. I take in so much data the filter (my brain) misses some of the details. And I was up to my neck at that moment, with no time to look up the actual data.

I have a lot of experience receiving damaged ups and fed ex shipments. I have shipped priority mail for 12 years in January, and 2 or 3 boxes SOME years damaged, many years no damages, everything got there, on time. Which is why I continue to ship with them. I hope they get to stay in business. But I do pay my bills online or by phone, and that I think has really hurt them - because a lot of people do.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

State court system still requires US Mail. Federal system is electronic though.

Federal court system doesn't even like the federal postal system.


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## ryandebny (Apr 17, 2010)

USPS sucks half the time anyway. Ups is best. Fed X promises quick delivery but ends up being a day late and dosen't give a refund for breach of guarrantee. Acebird needs to watch the news. Theres a world out there bigger than the small world of bees.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

What makes you think I don't watch the news. True, I don't pay much attention to misleading headlines.


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## ryandebny (Apr 17, 2010)

Sorry didn't mean to push any buttons. The post office has been discussing this for months. I don't watch the news much either but they talked about this more than Kim Kardashian.


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

ups in certain areas here won't deliver they take the package so far and then basically give it to the usps mail man to finish delivery. one of our rural carriers here was talking (fussing) about having to deliver their packages. the post office due to legislation has to fund their retirement fund ahead for I think 75 years (someone may know the actual time and can tell us) but that is what is putting them in the red.


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## DutchBee (Jul 14, 2009)

DutchBee said:


> I heard the news as well, and I am sure the tax subsidized US Mail system is close to being bankrupt but I am sure that our current Administration will just increase our taxes so the inefficient US Mail can stay alive. I would not ship a fruit cake let alone something important like my bees through the US Mail.


yeah OK..... a semi federal government agency not supported by tax payers...... whatever 
lets you sleep better at night


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

All federal agencies are supported by the taxpayer because the taxpayer insures their existence. What has set precedent is private industry, namely GM, the Banks and Wall street are now part of the socialistic system which were once capitalistic in theory.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

UPS is subsidized by the taxpayer as well. They hold huge contracts with the DOD and other agencies. Why contract out inter-department shipping when you have a government agency like the USPS?

When I was in the Coast Guard all small packages shipped between stations had to go UPS because of contracts.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I've also been told over the years that the post office doesn't get a dime from the gov, & its not actually a branch of the US government. Its run independently, except the Gov. can take money from them.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

KQ6AR said:


> I've also been told over the years that the post office doesn't get a dime from the gov,


Not correct. They are Government subsidized; for 2011 they received 86 million from the FED. They are requesting 78 million for 2012 http://appropriations.house.gov/UploadedFiles/FY_2012_FIN-SERVICES_FULL_COMMITTEE_REPORT.pdf


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Acebird said:


> All federal agencies are supported by the taxpayer because the taxpayer insures their existence. What has set precedent is private industry, namely GM, the Banks and Wall street are now part of the socialistic system which were once capitalistic in theory.


Ace - that was so worth saying that i am quoting you! (GM at least paid the money back, not so sure about the rest of them)

Gypsi


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Not correct. They are Government subsidized; for 2011 they received 86 million from the FED. They are requesting 78 million for 2012 http://appropriations.house.gov/UploadedFiles/FY_2012_FIN-SERVICES_FULL_COMMITTEE_REPORT.pdf


My adobe is updating so that I can read this, since it is actually a government document. I'll take a look.

Gypsi


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

First of all UPS getting paid by the government for providing services is not subsidizing. It is called paying for services. As far as a contract goes that benefits the government as they negotiate lower prices for the service. I know I have been involved in hundreds of contracts for the state of Nevada. Just one example. Local supplier sells an item for $93.00. We negotiated a contract and they sell the same item to us for $23.00. We buy them by the truck load. 

USPS is not government. It is contracted. The government cannot "Take" money from them. The Government does get a percentage of their sales. In like manner where I work the food service is contracted. The State gets 20% off the top of their sales. The State could run the food service themselves and receive a larger profit.

Also USPS is required to operate within budget. So there is not subsidizing. The government does own the facilities and equipment in many cases. The contractor does not pay to build a new post office that belongs to the government. We contract many things. In some cases custodial services in individual buildings for example. The contractor is paid to clean the building but we still pay the costs of equipment, repairs etc. We also pay extra for work the contractor does above and beyond what the contract stipulates. Cleaning up after special events, cleaning up after floods or even vandalism. construction zones are not covered in the basic contract so cleaning up sawdust and sheet rock dust is also extra. None of this extra money is subsidizing. It is paying for services that we ask for. Businesses do not donate their services to the state. For what the State is willing to pay it is very close though. And in truth the State will ream a contractor at any opportunity. A lost key to a building recently resulted in a contractor being charged $50,000. Needless to say this contractor will not be renewing their contract when it expires. They have already started talking as if they are going to cancel the current one. They can with 90 days notice according to their contract. 

We have a contractor that delivers supplies. But we purchase maintain and provide gas for the vehicles they use. In short it all becomes very complicated. It is impossible to assume what a contract includes and does not include without reading the contract. One of my jobs is to go in behind contractors and finish the work they failed to do. I don't know of one case where the contractor was penalized for this. We pay them to do the work then they pay me to go redo it. None of this seems out of line to those in charge.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I don't think many would agree with your assessment.

A subsidy is government money given to a private person or company because the services provided are considered beneficial to the public. A farm subsidy is frequently given to produce a certain crop, or not produce it. That is a subsidy for a service. 

Blackwater USA is subsidized by the government through security contracts... They would not exist without those government contracts. 

A private Fire dept can get free equipment from GSA because they provide a service to the people. That is also a subsidy for a service. 

Government subsidies are always in exchange for something... They are also always protected by a contract.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

And those contracts are not necessarily the cheapest way to conduct business, as I have seen from being a long time government worker. Many of those contractors get paid up front, run their businesses into the ground, go bankrupt, and re-form next year under a new name. I have seen it a thousand times.

Using UPS or Fedex to ship bees is a terrible expensive idea, but I am sure that is the plan, so that contracts can be issued.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm either catching swarms and not buying, buying local, or my bee group will all order nucs and I daresay someone will go pick them all up. Save a FORTUNE in freight, get better bees. (no offense intended to our producers, but if I brought a package in here the local robbers would kill them within a week. I need a minimum a 4 frame nuc, or to get the robbers in a hive.)


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