# Due gratitude for a modest success...



## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

Following much of the excellent advice that several members of the forum were gracious enough to give me in my "Struggling with queen cells" thread, I've made e a final attempt at rearing queens this year, and have been able to produce eight handsome queen cells. (Spot on with your prediction, Kilocharlie, and I am every bit as elated as you said I ought to be in such a case.) To the practiced beekeepers of the forum I am sure my queen cell frame would look like the grinning mouth of a child missing most of his teeth, but this greenhorn is pleased as the devil. Of course, these queens still have to be born and get themselves successfully mated; but it is for me an enormous first step.

I confess I was reticent to subscribe myself to this forum, for no other motive than my deep and largely irrational dislike for our digital age. I must say that in the very brief time I have been writing here, this forum has proved its value and more. I thank you all for moderating an all-too-extreme opinion of mine. Without the help of those who wrote me, I doubt very much I would have had much, if any, success at so difficult a time in the year. My sincere thanks.

John


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Congrats! And you're absolutely correct about this forum! Worth far more than the subscription price. 

Let us know how it turns out!


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## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> Congrats! And you're absolutely correct about this forum! Worth far more than the subscription price.


Thanks, jwcarlson. Indeed, about the forum I was tempted to say that it's worth its weight in gold - but somehow, that doesn't come out right...

The queen cells were installed into nucs and hatched with no trouble. Now all that remains is for them to find themselves a veritable swarm of valid drones. Fingers crossed.

John


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

congrats! hope u get good queens. im gonna try queen rearing next spring, hope it works for me too!


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## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

beestudent said:


> congrats! hope u get good queens. im gonna try queen rearing next spring, hope it works for me too!


Best of luck to you when you do, beestudent.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Congrats man. My first attempt at grafting was a meltdown. My choice of cell builder colony was poor. Little did I know but it was about to hatch SHB larva. It looked fine one day and then three days later, oh God. Basically built the cell builder and then watched it collapse. 
Good luck with getting them mated. I bet you'll do fine.


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## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

Lord, Aunt Betty, that sounds like it must have been miserable. I certainly can't say anything, however; this was, for the record, my _sixth _attempt at cell building. Three of the first five failures, I didn't expect much out of what I was doing, for a few good reasons; but the others were disappointing enough without the intervention of pests...

Anyway, thanks for your faith in a happy ending. I'll hope you're right.

John


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm going to give grafting a proper go next year, provided I have the resources.

I can tell you that it takes much less in bee resources to just make a couple decent queens by notching and letting a nuc build some cells or pulling queen from a strong hive and letting them make emergency cells for later removal and relocation. You can argue about the quality of the queen... but to be honest, for what I'm doing and where I am at right now as a beekeeper. It doesn't make enough of a difference for me to see or understand. If I'd have been smart earlier this year I'd have plopped a frame of eggs in with my grafts so that I could have at least got something out of the attempt (emergency cells on the comb)... but I didn't. And I missed out on getting more offspring from my best queen and instead bought a few queens... 2/3 of those were busts. Really set me back because now I'm hoping some of these raised queens are going to be well mated and have enough time to get nucs built up. 

Frustrated in myself.


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## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

I have no doubt that you're right, jwcarlson, regarding emergency cells versus grafted cells. I made several walk away splits this year, and am satisfied enough with the results. Strange to say, but I had to throw myself so prematurely into grafting this year not for myself, but for my mentor, whose situation is grown desperate. (Old queens, he's not sure how old, nor certain how long they'll last, and his colonies are going out like lights left and right.) He himself has never reared queens, as he has no time to learn such novelties. He prefers instead to buy them whenever necessary; but this year he's down on money, and in consequence - well, you can see how one thing leads to another. My colonies, of course, had to suffer the experimentation; and the queens went to him. (I consider it fair payment for all he's taught me.) But necessity is a fine mistress; and she's all given me a fantastic introduction to queen rearing. Next year I'll be much better prepared to give all of this my renewed effort than I ever could have _expected _to be before all these late frantic attempts on my part. 

I certainly understand the frustration in yourself that you speak of - I've done countless things just in a few months for which I can rightly claim the same if not greater frustration in myself - but do you know, if one is aware enough to learn from them, I think all these errors pay for themselves in the end. Let's hope at least, shall we?

John


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> I have no doubt that you're right, jwcarlson, regarding emergency cells versus grafted cells. I made several walk away splits this year, and am satisfied enough with the results. Strange to say, but I had to throw myself so prematurely into grafting this year not for myself, but for my mentor, whose situation is grown desperate. (Old queens, he's not sure how old, nor certain how long they'll last, and his colonies are going out like lights left and right.) He himself has never reared queens, as he has no time to learn such novelties. He prefers instead to buy them whenever necessary; but this year he's down on money, and in consequence - well, you can see how one thing leads to another. My colonies, of course, had to suffer the experimentation; and the queens went to him. (I consider it fair payment for all he's taught me.) But necessity is a fine mistress; and she's all given me a fantastic introduction to queen rearing. Next year I'll be much better prepared to give all of this my renewed effort than I ever could have _expected _to be before all these late frantic attempts on my part.
> 
> I certainly understand the frustration in yourself that you speak of - I've done countless things just in a few months for which I can rightly claim the same if not greater frustration in myself - but do you know, if one is aware enough to learn from them, I think all these errors pay for themselves in the end. Let's hope at least, shall we?
> 
> John


 I like the way you are giving back, paying forward etc. I'm doing the same thing. Have had help from many sources and am trying to repay as I go with queens, frames with queen cells, or whatever my bees give me that I think I don't need. It's been a real good way to make friends in the bee world. The payoff is mostly in joy. Finding a queen you sold someone else in their hive doing what she's spose to do is like gold.


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## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

aunt betty said:


> The payoff is mostly in joy. Finding a queen you sold someone else in their hive doing what she's spose to do is like gold.


Could not have said it better, Aunt Betty, could not have said it better.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

!

Go, girls, go! I hope mating is as fun for you as it is for us humans! Mate well, mate as many drones as you can stand, then put out for a few more! May you live long and prosper!

Here's to you, John, the Sardinian Falcon! Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah! I sense you will be with us a while. Determination is one of the telltales of a real beekeeper in the making, and one getting in to queen rearing is another very positive symptom. Your humble attitude and thankful response should be an inspiration to us all. Glad to have you with us, and good luck getting those Sardinian bees.

*Do* be sure to check out David LaFerney's threads on Joseph Clemen's small-scale queen rearing method. It produces a few (about 8 to 16 or even 20) queens every 11 days, and provides more opportunities to learn new details during the queen rearing season, using far less rescources. You don't need to build a resource-eating Finisher Colony - they do the whole job in the queenless state inside a vented, 5- or 6- frame nucleus box. You can employ any of several queen producing methods - Hopkins, grafting, Cut-Cell (see Oldtimer's thread, "Raising queens Without Grafting" at the top of the column), Cell Punch, Miller, OTS, Nicot, Jenter Box, etc. Michael Bush's website, www.bushfarms.com has a pretty good start on many of the systems.

The small-scale approach and doing it often is giving David a fantastic learning curve - he is getting larger queen cells more and more often, and he is probably learning more about the nucleus colonies and their various applications that the rest of us by keeping his efforts at exactly the right scale for his operation.

Again, Best of luck to you!


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## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

Thanks for the very kind words, Kilocharlie! I grant much of my success to you and your excellent advice. I owe you one - though it is difficult to imagine when I'd ever be able to repay the debt. 

I'll definitely read up on Joseph Clemen's method and what David LaFerney has to say about it. Thanks for the tip! You put your finger on one of my obstacles: I struggled a lot with the problem of how to make a finisher colony, as I didn't want to disturb any more hives than I had already disturbed. Battling with my ignorance, you know. To make these queens I built a swarm box (a ventilated nuc capable of holding six frames) with a removable floorboard. For the first steps, I set the swarm box, completely closed, on a strong working colony; the two remained separated, then, by a queen excluder and by the swarm box's floorboard. After the cells were started, I removed the floorboard so that the swarm box communicated directly with the full colony through the queen excluder; then hoped to the gods that the entire thing would function as a finisher colony. 

It worked, in any case, and I am pleased enough with the resultant size of the cells. But I imagine that this is one of those areas in which constant improvement is not only possible, but even obligatory, for anyone who aspires to be a serious beekeeper. And of course, this system worked relatively smoothly also because I was working in a time of dearth; elsewise, I imagine I would have to interrupt a main hive's honey gathering for a week or two, and that is indeed less than ideal. Needless to say, I'm very curious about this nucleus box which works as both starter and finisher...

Much to think about for next year, and much, much, much to learn. In the meantime, I'll join you in praying well for the shameless promiscuity of all our queens.

John


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

OK, if you owe me one, pay it forward by continuing to improve throughout your career, and teach others what you have learned. You will have payed it forward 30,000 fold or better* per colony* by every flower that gets pollinated due to your direct efforts, and the efforts of those who follow in your footsteps. (Yes, this is my Ponzi scheme!  You're in my pyramid, now.)

As far as battling with my own ignorance - we are all in the same boat until one of the bees learns to speak English, German, Russian, or some other human language and sits down with a bee researcher and explains so much that we do not know yet. Kind of humbling, huh? 

We start out as bee killers, and eventually learn to become dudes in veiled jumpsuits whom bees tolerate, somewhat. A few of us may even become beekeepers someday, but usually only 2-year to 4 year "Private First Class" or "First Seargeant" rank morons with bee suits call them selves beekeepers. 

Those of us morons having "Master Seargeant" and above years of experience (say, maybe 10,000 stings...?) know at least a little bit of how very little we know about bees, and how tolerant these creatures are of our bumbling efforts.


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## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

An update and, with it (as is inevitable), a new question...

Four of the original eight queens have successfully mated and have begun to lay brood. One of them went missing-in-action; I suspect a European bee-eater had herself a nice afternoon snack. The remaining three, which are my present concern, are perpetually loafing about in their nuc boxes (one of them _always_ on the same face of the same frame) and have laid no eggs, nearly a month after their birth. 

My question is quite simply if these queens are best considered duds at this point, or if there is the possibility that they a.) might still set out on their virgin flight, or b.) are pregnant and have some motive for delayed laying?

As ever, any input would be appreciated.

John


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Interesting.

Was the weather spotty during mating time? Were there a lot of drones available?


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## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> Was the weather spotty during mating time? Were there a lot of drones available?


Not so spotty as that. I believe it rained once - gently, and briefly - and there was likely some wind, but nothing exceptional. As for drones - my sense is that there were sufficient numbers, but given the complexity of honey bee mating I find it difficult to get a sense of just what is enough, or not enough. I can attest that there were drones present in all eight of the nucs, in some more than others, and these nucs were in an apiary with a handful of other nucs and hives, in a few of which the number of drones is probably higher than average. (I have begun to regress those colonies to natural cell; one knows how that goes.) I can say nothing for any other drones that might be present in this area; I have yet to find other beekeepers near my apiary, though it is possible there are such.

What do you think? Are these queens lost?

John


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> Following much of the excellent advice that several members of the forum were gracious enough to give me in my "Struggling with queen cells" thread, I've made e a final attempt at rearing queens this year, and have been able to produce eight handsome queen cells. (Spot on with your prediction, Kilocharlie, and I am every bit as elated as you said I ought to be in such a case.) To the practiced beekeepers of the forum I am sure my queen cell frame would look like the grinning mouth of a child missing most of his teeth, but this greenhorn is pleased as the devil. Of course, these queens still have to be born and get themselves successfully mated; but it is for me an enormous first step.
> 
> I confess I was reticent to subscribe myself to this forum, for no other motive than my deep and largely irrational dislike for our digital age. I must say that in the very brief time I have been writing here, this forum has proved its value and more. I thank you all for moderating an all-too-extreme opinion of mine. Without the help of those who wrote me, I doubt very much I would have had much, if any, success at so difficult a time in the year. My sincere thanks.
> 
> John


the queens have probably already been born. Now they need to emerge.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

They are usually laying by 3 weeks, but they still may at 4 weeks and a few days. After 35 days, I'd consider re-combining the colonies so that you don't get laying workers.

You may already know about laying workers - 2 or 3 eggs in the same cell, lots of empty cells, eggs mounted part-way down, not in the center of the bottom of the cell standing up like a queen lays. They all turn out drone cells, unless you are lucky and have a strain of bees displaying thyteloky, a form of parthenogenesis, by which un-mated worker bees can lay female offspring. Not many bee colonies display this trait.

Laying workers, (LW's for short) are a pain for beekeepers. They are usually very difficult to re-combine with other colonies, or to introduce a new queen amongst. You can use Beesource's search box to look up old threads on LW's. Lots of ways to deal with them, but success is limited. 

It sort of begs the question, "How important is this nuc' colony?" Many of us would rather lose a late-blooming queen than deal with LW's, so the cut-off is 3 weeks, right about the time LW's would start. Often, the late-blooming queen is not all that great, anyways, so why risk it?

True, sometimes a fantastic queen just takes her time getting started. Sacrafice the chance of her for not having to deal with LW's? The answer is personal, and probably depends on how good you are at dealing with LW's.

Since you have 4 good ones, why not combine the rescources of the remaining 3 not-yet-laying colonies with the 4 good ones, and feed them to over-winter in good numbers? I'm learning to play conservative and go with the surest thing, especially late in the season. 

A sheet of newspaper with a few tooth pick holes between the good colony and the bees being introduced allows the smells to combine and the new bees are accepted. The good colony keeps it's location, and goes on the bottom. The bees being introduced go on top of the newspaper. Leave them alone for a week.


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## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

kilocharlie said:


> They are usually laying by 3 weeks, but they still may at 4 weeks and a few days. After 35 days, I'd consider re-combining the colonies so that you don't get laying workers.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Good advice as always, Kilocharlie. Conservative is generally better, there's no doubt. As you see, I didn't follow your counsel regarding nucleus colonies. I gave but a single queen cell to all the nucs, in hopes of squeezing more colonies out of them than the four you suggested I aim for; and in the end, got four anyway. So does one learn.

As far as laying workers - I learned about _them _by constraint, we might say. One of the nucs I originally purchased came sans queen; I let the bees handle the affair, and they produced a new queen, a real beauty, who subsequently disappeared, probably in her mating flight. (Fallen prey, no doubt, to that wretched, gorgeous bee-eater.) The bees grew desperate in their chronic queenlessness, and the workers valiantly decided to salvage the situation. Hence was I left with a big, beautiful colony of laying workers. My mentor told me not to waste my time with it; recommended the traditional solution of taking it out behind the barn and shooting it. Stubborn as I am, I instead followed Michael Bush's advice and added a frame of open brood for three consecutive weeks, which happily resolved the situation. I learned just enough about a laying worker colony to know that I should rather not ever see one again, if I can help it. 

I'd like to avoid it in this case, as well. I did not know that three weeks is the cut-off; that is useful information. I think I'll call today the deadline, and combine per your recommendation. The tip about the newspaper is clever; I'll put it to use.

Thanks again.

John


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