# Top Bar Hive Demise



## Thomassen (Jul 6, 2014)

My Top Bar did not survive it's first year. It took me a while, but here is postmortem Blog Post.

http://klevjer.blogspot.com/2014/11/anatomy-of-hive-death.html


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

Wow...just read it. Too bad! My first year and I will stand on a podium and shout to the world I dont know enough so my first year yes I treated. I've watched robbing go and and made robbber screens and plan on making a dozen more over the winter. I plan on treating also in spring as well. The cost of a nuc does not equal the cost of treating the half dozen hives I have so I cant have too many die-offs. So one question...was this your only hive??


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hi Thomas I read your blog, your analysis of what went wrong is exactly right. I magnified the second pic, and a number of dead brood can be seen, showing signs of pms, and there is also a queen cell.

The hive had a level of varroa infestation that was too high for it to survive, but on top of that had lost it's queen, likely 2 weeks before your second pic was taken, could you have worked the hive then and accidentally killed it?

The robbing is actually typical when death by varroa is near, the bees look normal but are weakened plus lose their morale, they get robbed and this is how the mites spread to new hives.

My recommendation would be to ready the hive for next season by cutting off the brood combs, leave a strip of comb maybe 1/2 inch deep running under the top bars as a starter strip for the next bees. Combs that have not had brood can be kept in their entirety. They will need protecting from wax moths a good way is put in the deep freeze if you can spare room.

For next time around I highly recommend Apivar strips to kill mites in TBH's. They are effective and no great skill is required to use them. Just poke a matchstick through the hole in the top of the strip, spread the bars slightly and let 2 or 3 strips hang among the brood area for 6 to 8 weeks and all mites gone.

Going treatment free was a noble goal, but as you just have one hive, a loss of one is 100%. One thing you have taken away from this is a better understanding of mites, for people with just one hive my own belief is they should keep mites at bay, losing the hive to mites is not going to help the world in any way so treat them if need be.


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## Thomassen (Jul 6, 2014)

Yes, this was my only hive. I now have a Langstroth a friend moved into my yard as it wash;t doing well where he had it. It's doing fine, now.


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## Thomassen (Jul 6, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback, Oldtimer. Why don't I save the brood comb? I've wrapped in it plastic wrap and have put in my freezer to kill any wax moth eggs. Varroa need larvae and pupae to survive. Is is possible to reuse the brood comb now that they are empty?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Since you have saved it and have it safely stored, may as well go ahead and use it.

My reason for suggesting you throw it is I don't know if you will treat for mites or not. The brood comb will contain quite a lot of virus, and if you do not treat for mites, the mites that come with your next bees will vector this virus back into the next bees. But if you keep mites low the bees will deal with the virus.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> The brood comb will contain quite a lot of virus, and if you do not treat for mites, the mites that come with your next bees will vector this virus back into the next bees.


can the viruses survive in a vegetative state through several months of freezing?


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> Since you have saved it and have it safely stored, may as well go ahead and use it.
> 
> My reason for suggesting you throw it is I don't know if you will treat for mites or not. The brood comb will contain quite a lot of virus, and if you do not treat for mites, the mites that come with your next bees will vector this virus back into the next bees. But if you keep mites low the bees will deal with the virus.


I'm not an expert on virus, but the scientists that I have talked to have said that most virus needs it's living host to survive, and once that is gone, they don't last more than a few days. It would be nice if someone had more specific info along these lines and chimed in here.

I have been reusing brood comb from deadouts for decades and have never noticed any problems attributable to it.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

rkereid said:


> virus needs it's living host to survive, and once that is gone, they don't last more than a few days.


that's been my understanding as well, but i wasn't able to come up with a specific answer with a quick google search. i did find this fairly recent article which has a good review of the common bee viruses:

http://www.extension.org/pages/7117...he-deadly-varroa-mite-associates#.VHZcS2eKVps


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Oh OK if that's what you guys say, my schoolboy level of understanding was that viruses could last a long time but maybe that's just what I always thought but I'm wrong.

Always learning something new! 

For me, I always re use old comb no matter how bad they are long as it's not AFB. But I am careful about mites.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i couldn't find a specific link ot, and i do remember reading that some viruses can survive outside their host longer than others, but reusing brood comb should not be a problem with the exception of afb spores as you have noted.


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