# WHAT DEFINES FERAL BEES



## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

In my story, Once they become managed, they are no longer feral. Perhaps their genetics remain feral though


----------



## bugman2 (Apr 9, 2014)

My bees have come from swarms I caught from a building that has had bees in the same location for 19 years that I have worked there. And they are still going strong without any human intervention. When a swarm lands and someone spots it they call me to come and get it. There are 3 trees that I have spotted in the area that have bees in them also. I guess you would call them feral bees? They sure are productive little bees.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Are they the gentle type feral bees too?


----------



## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

Oh, boy, NOW you've done it! This is like pitting treatment vs. non treatment beekeepers against each other. In my area of northwest Washington state, the general consensus at the bee clubs, and among beekeepers I've talked to is that almost all of the swarms captured over the last few years are from managed hives. If there are any bee trees around, their location is unknown or kept secret. Most of the swarms captured in our county come from commercial hives doing berry and seed crop pollination, or backyard beekeepers whose hives swarm. Many swarms here have the prettiest yellow bees around. It's rare to hear of the classic "feral" small dark bee around captured here. Some prefer to call their swarms "survivor" rather than feral. I guess any hive that lives through a winter could be called "survivor".


----------



## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

When they are in the wild they are feral. Once they are placed in a hive, no matter the type, they are not feral bees. They are being managed they are now a live stock. like horses,cows,pigs whatever type of animal it might bee. Did that sound okay ??


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I think it depends largely on location. I've caught swarms in traps and in trees with marked queens. One would think they're feral when they just swarmed from a managed hive.


----------



## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

Funny, that. I haven't caught many swarms yet, but when I do, I always look for a marked queen.


----------



## bugman2 (Apr 9, 2014)

Some days they are good some days they are pretty mean. There is also a lot of them that are solid black.


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I think feral bees are just those not under managed care in the same way feral cats are strays, but essentially not any different than a house cat. Perhaps necessarily having a sturdier constitution, but otherwise the same. 

(My own bees are all swarms that re-occupied long-running feral hive sites after the previous occupants died or disappeared in the winter/spring of 2012-2013. They are pure bred mutts, and proud of it. Honey bees commonly live in barns and trees in my area. Where they came from, no one knows. )

Enj.


----------



## CajunBee (May 15, 2013)

*feral*
adjective fe·ral \ˈfir-əl, ˈfer-; ˈfe-rəl\

: of, relating to, or resembling a wild beast

—used to describe an animal (such as a cat or dog) that has escaped and become wild

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feral


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Surely they are not wild bees when once was domesticated. That is if you
agree that honey bees are raised as farm stock just like the goats and horses.
And certainly you would not call an escaped horse a wild one. Wild horses are untamed
in the wild open grass land. Is that the same with the bees?


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Ferae naturae - latin term used to describe honeybees. The essential meaning is that all bees are non-domesticated livestock in the sense that a horse can be domesticated, but honeybees cannot. Honeybees are not native to the U.S. All bees in trees, buildings, holes in the ground, etc. are escapees from managed colonies imported years ago. From this context, bees in a hive are "managed" bees. All other bees are "feral" bees.

It is not correct to refer to honeybees as "domesticated". The key difference is that a domesticated animal would have difficulty surviving in the wild. Think of how most house cats would be incapable of surviving if you turned one loose in the woods. Now think of a swarm of honeybees. They don't care if they are in a hive or in a hollow tree, so long as there is nectar and pollen to gather, they can survive.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

TF Extremist definition - If I own them they are feral survivors. But if they live in a commercial beekeepers hive they are domesticated.

Average Beesource Users definition - The bees are feral if I say they are. Or if I caught them from any swarm they are feral.

My definition - all bees are feral.

Michael Bush definition - The genetics doesn't matter, it only matters if they are on natural small cell comb. When I treated my bees they all died, when I stopped treating them none of them died of mites.

Solomon Parker definition - I do not baby my bees or pour chemicals into the hives, they are feral survivors. That's until I discovered my neighbour was a commercial queen breeder then most of my bees died, it's his fault.

Modernist Pseudoscientist definition - The bees are feral if they live in the Arnot Forest and have been allowed to "return to their original mite resistant genetics", we won't discuss that _apis melifera_ did not originally have mites or mite resistant genetics.


Disclaimer :- No resemblance to persons living or dead is intended, artistic license has been taken.


----------



## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Hahaha that's pretty funny. I consider them all feral too however I call bees in a hive 'kept' (ferals)  I refer to the escapees as survivors on occasion too.


----------



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

A feral bee is any bee that has escaped from managed hives (swarmed) into the wild. Once it or it's progeny is returned to a managed condition it is no longer feral.

All bees in North America that live in the wild originally came from managed stocks. Unless a beekeeper knows that a recovered swarm originated from a feral colony that has overwintered one or more times, it is a "stretch" to call it "survivor stock." In my area tracheal and varroa mites killed the wild colonies and they have been replaced by escaped swarms form managed colonies. How well they have survived depends on the genetics they inherited from the queen and her mates. Those same qualities are still in commercial stocks and can be selected for by beekeepers.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bugman2 said:


> And they are still going strong without any human intervention.


How well do they do once you get involved?


----------



## bugman2 (Apr 9, 2014)

They are doing very well.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> TF Extremist definition - If I own them they are feral survivors. But if they live in a commercial beekeepers hive they are domesticated.
> Average Beesource Users definition - The bees are feral if I say they are. Or if I caught them from any swarm they are feral.
> My definition - all bees are feral.
> Michael Bush definition - The genetics doesn't matter, it only matters if they are on natural small cell comb. When I treated my bees they all died, when I stopped treating them none of them died of mites.
> ...


Now, that was well written!


----------



## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Average Beesource Users definition - Or if I caught them from any swarm they are feral.


Replace feral with survivors and you get what I hear (even if they swarmed from this season's overfed CA package)


----------



## SowthEfrikan (Mar 2, 2015)

bugman2 said:


> I SEE A FEW OF PEOPLE ON HERE SAY THERE BEES ARE FERAL. WHAT MAKES THERE BEES FERAL VS A SWARM THAT HAS MULTIPLIED SEVERAL TIMES AND SPREAD OUT OVER A FEW YEARS FROM SOMEONES BACKYARD BEEHIVES? JUST ASKING.


No, you can't have them back.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Feral:



*adj.adjective*
Existing in a wild or untamed state.
Having returned to an untamed state from domestication.


----------



## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

Feral means not managed / not lawfully claimed. Like dogs and cats, minimal effort required to get them back into domestic use. At some point the term wild could apply to long-term feral populations although as long as domestic stocks have an strong input into the feral stocks I think that wild should not apply. In some localities feral colonies represent the majority and are self sustaining although this is not likely to be the case where there are many backyard beekeepers or commercial beekeepers.


----------



## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> TF Extremist definition - If I own them they are feral survivors. But if they live in a commercial beekeepers hive they are domesticated.
> 
> Average Beesource Users definition - The bees are feral if I say they are. Or if I caught them from any swarm they are feral.
> 
> ...


Old Turkish saying: “One who tells the truth should keep one foot in the stirrup.”


----------



## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Feral to me means not managed by humans. Perhaps to the extent of born in wild. The offspring of the managed swarm is the 1st feral generation. 

So far I havn't found a marked queen in a swarm or cut-out. My feeling is 65% is from managed hives, the other 35% are feral tree or house hives. I have no data to prove though.


----------



## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I don't think there are any specifics for feral bees. 
My take is if they are living in something that isn't a managed hive and have managed to make it through at least 24 months...2 of each season...I would consider them as managing on their own and feral.
I think that is why feral stock would be sought after...they are survivors!


----------



## Sharpbees (Jun 26, 2012)

IMHO, I don't consider bees domesticated, they are managed but still wild by nature since you can't really make a pet of them. That being said, in context of the thread, I consider any established hive that has over wintered for 2 winters or more without man's intervention feral, even these usually originated from managed stock at some point.

I understand that established hives may be old hives that have been repopulated by new swarms, but I have averaged about 15 -20 cutouts per year since 2007, both long established hives and newer hives and I can kind of tell from what the homeowner says and what I see once I open a wall whether the hive has been in constant use since it was first built.


----------



## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

A feral critter is one that was domesticated (or had a near ancestor that was) and has returned to an entirely wild state.

As several have noted, bees aren't domesticated.
They are wild creatures that we manage.

So any definition of "feral" in connection with bees is not technically accurate.

But I use the term, even if it is not technically accurate.

I use it in reference to bees in a space that has been continually ocxuppied by bees for a couple years or more without human treatment or meddling, or swarms from such a hive.

I've obtained such bees in the past by doing cutouts.
Bees from such a situation are the only ones I have successfully kept treatment free and had thrive.

Very few swarms are what I would call feral.
To me, "feral" indicates bees that have proven they can survive multie winters without human help and still do well.

"Winter is the great see-lector" as a well known beekeeper likes to say.

When I lived in New York, I often saw little black bees, and tried to locate their source(s), but never did.

I very much wanted to.catch a swarm of them to see how they did, and to see if they were as mean as their reputation would have one believe.

If you catch some, I'd be interested in a daughter queen.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Seems like, no there is no real definition of feral bees........ everyone makes up their own .... and sometimes even that changes!


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> TF Extremist definition - If I own them they are feral survivors. But if they live in a commercial beekeepers hive they are domesticated.
> 
> Average Beesource Users definition - The bees are feral if I say they are. Or if I caught them from any swarm they are feral.
> 
> ...


:lpf:


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Mee 2, I would like to have a daughter also.
Maybee a nuc would bee nice to have. Who can find me some?


----------



## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

What Oldtimer said.:thumbsup:


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> TF Extremist definition - If I own them they are feral survivors. But if they live in a commercial beekeepers hive they are domesticated.
> 
> Average Beesource Users definition - The bees are feral if I say they are. Or if I caught them from any swarm they are feral.
> 
> ...


Now that was witty.

As for the actual questions at hand. A dictionary truly defines what is feral vs. domestic. No one can tell where their bees actually came from or with whom the queen bread. We don't understand 100% or know where DCA's (Drone Congregation Areas) are or which DCA's queens consistently go to mate at in respective areas. Since she undoubtedly mated with at least one "domestic" drone she's not laying 100% "survivor" eggs and any queens from her can't really be claimed to be 100% "survivor stock." "Survivor stock" and claims of such is completely undefined, unregulated, and buyer beware. 

When asked I reply, "Mutts, I've got mutts." They are a mix of cut outs, trap outs, captured swarms and purchased queens, packages, and nucs from the few years I've been doing this. I don't pay attention to it. If they're alive, I could unethically but correctly claim to the moon they're survivors. If they're not, well... they're not. In the big picture it doesn't matter.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

*do•mes•ti•cate*

(_v. dəˈmɛs tɪˌkeɪt; n. -kɪt) __

v. *-cat•ed, -cat•ing, 
n. v.t.
1. to convert (animals, plants, etc.) to domestic uses.
2. to tame (an animal), esp. by generations of breeding, to live in close association with human beings as a pet or work animal or for food, usu. compromising its ability to live in the wild.
3. to adapt (a plant) so as to be cultivated by and beneficial to human beings.
4. to accustom to household life.
5. to take (something foreign, unfamiliar, etc.) for one's own use.
v.i.6. to adjust to domestic life.
n.7. something, as an animal, that has been domesticated.
*_



I think it is fair to say that honey bees placed in a hive and managed for honey (or wax, propolis, etc) production fit definition #1 in that they have been converted to domestic use.

Also, Wikipedia defines the honey bee as "semi-domesticated":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Not saying this is the exact scientific definition, but a commonly held interpretation is that feral bees are "local survivors", ie, bees that have been living wild for at least several seasons and can survive.

This interpretation in todays world, means the bees would have to be able to survive varroa mites. Which means that bees that were once feral in pre varroa times, are now not, if they cannot survive varroa without human help.

Not endorsing the view just saying it's a commonly held view.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

http://bit.ly/1aYPuD6


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very clever Harley. One day you must share how to do that. 

Not sure if it was a little intentional humor but you also demonstrated that your technical skills are superior to your spelling skills, but what the heck, google knows.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Very clever Harley. One day you must share how to do that.
> but you also demonstrated that your technical skills are superior to your spelling skills,


Very typical in humans. Impossible to check if this would be the case in other animals.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Very clever Harley. One day you must share how to do that.
> 
> Not sure if it was a little intentional humor but you also demonstrated that your technical skills are superior to your spelling skills, but what the heck, google knows.


Oh I can't spell for chit ! never could.


----------



## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Harley Craig said:


> Oh I can't spell for chit ! never could.


Good thing to, or the filters would have done something nasty to this post if you spelled it correctly.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Not saying this is the exact scientific definition, but a commonly held interpretation is that feral bees are "local survivors", ie, bees that have been living wild for at least several seasons and can survive.
> 
> This interpretation in todays world, means the bees would have to be able to survive varroa mites. Which means that bees that were once feral in pre varroa times, are now not, if they cannot survive varroa without human help.


What he said.

I have feral survivors that are varroa resistant. Technically they are no longer feral cause now they are hived. But I still call them that. 

I catch 20-30 swarms a year in traps and swarm calls. Most are feral survivors but I do catch one or two that are domesticated, they large cell bees that have Italian colors. These domesticated bees have only been in or around the city where I have the fewest traps. There is a difference in their survival too, the domesticated large celled Italian colored bee don't make it. (I know it's not scientific and I only had a few each year) But I would not call them feral.
The feral survivors I do catch; are darker shades (some multi colored) small cell bees, that never have more than a few mites on the SBB. Some are meaner than others, none of which I would ever call gentle. 

Mutts Yes, but the Feral Survivor Mutts.


----------



## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

Thanks Charlie B. I'd often wondered if anyone ever caught a swarm with a marked queen, other than from their own hives. I've caught swarms, but never with a marked queen.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Harley Craig said:


> http://bit.ly/1aYPuD6


Will Ferrel, feral A
Collin Ferrel, feral Bee


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

gezellig said:


> Thanks Charlie B. I'd often wondered if anyone ever caught a swarm with a marked queen, other than from their own hives. I've caught swarms, but never with a marked queen.


Had a swarm with a marked queen move into a stack of supers last Spring. I don't mark my queens, so I know where it came from. Since it moved from one hive to another, I guess it wasn't feral very long.


----------



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Hard to know about "feral" until you know what "domesticated" means. A few years ago.....when humans began keeping bees, all bees were wild. Soon after, I imagine very few feral bees existed. Fast forward a few thousand years to present day, and it may be safe to say that all bees are feral to a degree given that bees are kept in virtually every country that bees can exist. At the same time, it could also be said that all bees are domesticated for the same reasons.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/domesticate
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feral


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

gezellig said:


> I'd often wondered if anyone ever caught a swarm with a marked queen, other than from their own hives. I've caught swarms, but never with a marked queen.


Did a cutout last year that had a marked queen.


----------



## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

FlowerPlanter said:


> What he said.
> 
> I have feral survivors that are varroa resistant. Technically they are no longer feral cause now they are hived. But I still call them that.
> 
> ...



x 2

Except I wouldn't call mine survivors, they just die slower. 


Don


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

What defines, Fer................
Free bees, ones you don't have to pay for.
gww


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The problem with language is that not only do we often have different definitions but those definitions are dependent on the context and not only are they dependent on the context, but the meanings often change over time and usually not in the direction of being more specific but in the direction of either being ambiguous (because the new meaning coexists with the old meaning) or just being more general rather than specific. No word is very useful until the two people (or more) in the conversation can agree on what THEY mean by that word in the THEIR context. So feral can and does have many definitions. Some of them in the context of beekeeping are intended to convey specific information to the people in the conversation. 

First let's look at why the word "feral" is being used as opposed to wild. If a domestic cat escapes to the wild and has kittens that grow up in the wild, those kittens have lost all of their appreciation of humans and are for all intents "wild." So why not call them "wild?" Because a wild cat is a cougar or a bobcat. In order to distinguish it from a cat of domestic genetics that now is wild we use the term "feral." So as soon as a domestic animal is living in a situation other than domesticity, it is, by definition, "feral." In that context feral bees are bees that do not live in a hive.

Of course there is that issue of whether any honey bees were EVER domestic as they are pretty wild, and just happen to live in a box that is managed by men. They can still leave whenever they like and you can't train them to do much beyond what they want to do anyway. So maybe all bees are wild. But still the point is to have a terminology that conveys something specific and meaningful and if we assume all bees are wild we still need a term to distinguish bees not living in man-made hives. Feral seems like a useful term for that.

In a conversation about genetics and origins, it has seemed useful to refer to stock that originated (at least for that beekeeper) from stock that was in a feral state as "feral stock". Meaning it was derived from stock that was feral. For the purposes of breeding the most useful aspects of "feral stock" comes from stock that has been feral for long enough to "prove" sustainable survivability. In other words they have the genetics to be able to survive in that climate with whatever pests are there with no intervention by beekeepers and chemicals.

Now in the end if we can't agree on how we are going to use a term then it loses all of it's usefulness and we have to repeatedly use some long description of what we mean because we can't agree on a useful term to describe that. 

But in the end any words means to you whatever YOU mean by it. But if the receiver of the communication has a different meaning in mind it is confusing. It is much less confusing if we can agree, at least somewhat, on what we mean by a word in the specific context of the current discussion.

The two typical beekeeping contexts for the term feral are either "the source of the bees" you got, or "the proven genetic potential to survive without intervention."


----------



## seniorasi (Mar 11, 2015)

Has anyone ever just put out a hive and wait to see if it becomes occupied?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sure seniorasi. But that is a pretty poor way start keeping bees. Bees don't see what we think a bee hive looks like and think to themselves, "Hey, looks like someone built us a house to live in." But some times they do.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Has anyone ever just put out a hive and wait to see if it becomes occupied?

They are called "bait hives".


----------



## seniorasi (Mar 11, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >Has anyone ever just put out a hive and wait to see if it becomes occupied?
> 
> They are called "bait hives".


Interesting stuff. I've now spent the entire day reading about bees. Not one iota of the work I had planned has been accomplished. But hey! What a hoot to read about bees!


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Every beekeeper started somewhere and some how.


----------



## seniorasi (Mar 11, 2015)

My initial interest was in building the hives for my wife. It seems I've been stung.


----------



## bugman2 (Apr 9, 2014)

If you hive them and baby them do you think they will lose that survivability?


----------



## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

bugman2 said:


> If you hive them and baby them do you think they will lose that survivability?


I think they could, due to the fact that one is now trying to intervene/manage them. For instance, I once read here that someone removed feral colonies from their barn, hived them & began to treat them :scratch: Why would anyone do this? Perhaps because everyone likes to be babied, or so we think


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bugman2 said:


> If you hive them and baby them do you think they will lose that survivability?


Simply putting them in hives and managing them like you would any other bees, treating for mites or not, their survivability has been found to be no better than bees from managed hives. One aspect of the survivability of feral colonies of bees is that they tend to swarm more often than managed colonies. Thereby experiencing a brood break which negatively impacts varroa.


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

"For instance, I once read here that someone removed feral colonies from their barn, hived them & began to treat them Why would anyone do this? Perhaps because everyone likes to be babied, or so we think ."

That would be me who did that. I removed the feral swarms that arrived in 2013 to the newly-emptied barn wall bee-cavities that formerly had unmanaged bees living in them for more than two decades. Sometime between Dec. 2012 and mid May 2013, the large colonies died (without leaving corpses), disappeared, absconded, swarmed (but no swarms cells found). Who knows what happened, and why? 

If there had not been an absence of bees, followed by the arrivals of new swarms, I probably would have left things undisturbed. (The reason for that was that until I began to keep bees I believed, incorrectly, that I was quite allergic to bee stings. Experience, and many stings since then, has taught me that I am not. But before that I gave the bees a wide berth and just let them do their thing.)

Before I had bees I had also erroneously assumed that this feral colony was the same one, or at least was the descendants of the original occupants. Now I believe that it is likely that from tiime to time the bees did not survive (for one reason or another) and were then replaced by new swarms. I base this on the fact that over the years, my farm notebooks have some entries where I noted in May that the bees seemed to be "hibernating" (what did I know?) later than normal, but were eventually observed in June or July.

I hived the bees because I wanted to be a beekeeper and believed I could provide better care for them in boxes than I could in the barn walls. I treat the bees for mites because they need to be treated. Of the three individual colonies removed from the barn in 2013, every one is still alive and well in my small apiary. I have had no losses. Yes, I baby them but mostly because I am interested in working out what it takes to have reliably healthy, thriving, and _surviving_ bees. To me the term "sustainable apiary" does not mean simply growing enough replacements to cover your annual losses - it means having the same colonies that survive and prosper from year to year.

Where my bees came from, I do not know. But they are my responsibility now and I will not allow them to suffer, and possibily die, simply to find out if they have "survivor/feral stock" genetics or not. 

Enj.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

http://www.nbb.cornell.edu/seeley.shtml

Dr. Seeley defining the meaning of "feral honey bee";

"At present, my main research interest is in the area of conservation biology: determining how honey bee colonies living in the wild are able to survive without being treated with pesticides for controlling a deadly ectoparasitic mite, Varroa destructor. Understanding how feral honey bee accomplish this will help beekeepers develop sustainable, pesticide-free approaches to beekeeping."


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That being "living in the wild", is that what you are saying?


----------



## Stlnifr (Sep 12, 2010)

A feral bee is a domesticated bee “so to speak” that has returned to the wild, or the descendants of such a bee. It is not a stray bee, which has been lost or abandoned; while domesticated bees have never been socialized they have been managed whereas a domesticated swarm that has escaped and survived at least a year is a feral bee; so a feral bee is one that has returned to the wild and has not been managed now a swarm of such a colony would be even more feral. These bees would be classified as survivor bees up to the day they died out. Now I would want a swarm off the second year survivors and I would classify them as feral survivor bees worthy of propagating. I also notice that feral bees tend to be smaller than the domesticated variety that is being managed so this would be a trait of feral bees and possibly desirable in a domesticated strain.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>their survivability has been found to be no better than bees from managed hives. 

By who? By Tom, who put them back on large cell comb?


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Must read by Randy Oliver;

*Is There A Difference Between Domesticated And Feral Bees?*

"Of note is the *far greater genetic diversity of the feral bees *(23 mitotypes) *than in the managed bees *(only 7 mitotypes total, with 82% of the diversity represented by only 3 mitotypes). Of interest is that the stocks of both western and southern queen producers tend to be predominated by only three C mitotypes [39], which likely flow into the feral populations (thus bolstering their proportions)."

"Bottom Line
In answer to my original questions:
1.Yes, most managed breeds of honey bees can be considered to be domesticated (or at least semi-domesticated) animals, with their genetics largely controlled by human breeders rather than by nature.
2.Domestication of an animal comes at a cost in fitness; i.e., a lessened ability to survive in the wild without human assistance (case in point, the C1 mitotype).
3.Yes, there is truly a genetic difference between domesticated stocks and feral bees. Feral populations *are not simply escaped swarms.*
4.Domesticated bees, by various mechanisms, may revert to a hybrid wild type that may be more genetically diverse and exhibit greater environmental fitness than the original parent races.
5.Yes, U.S. feral bees maintain constantly-evolving, self-perpetuating populations (akin to “landraces” of other species, which tread the line between being wild, feral, and domesticated [50]). Strikingly, certain maternal lines appear to have persisted in the U.S. since at least the 1800’s, despite the introductions of chalkbrood, tracheal mite, Small Hive Beetle, Nosema ceranae, and who knows what else. The *ferals are tough, and appear in many areas to be rebounding from the catastrophe of varroa.*
6.There is likely some degree of gene flow (mainly of C1 and C11) from the managed into the feral population, but appears to be little in return.
7.Our American breeds of honey bees, be they called “Italians” or something else, are likely mongrels selected for particular characteristics and coloration, rather than genetic pedigree [51].
8.I am in no way critical of our commercial queen producers, who deserve every penny for their excellent queens, which are typically bred for high productivity under best management practices.
9.There is perhaps reason to be concerned about the paucity of genetic diversity in our managed bees. Every aspect of natural bee reproduction promotes genetic diversity; selective breeding from a limited gene pool goes against what has made the honey bee such a successful species.
10.Our locally-adapted “survivor” *feral populations may be an invaluable resource for bee breeders, offering the prospect of being our salvation from the varroa/virus complex.*
11.My strong feeling is that *feral survivor stocks deserve far more of our attention than we have been giving them."*


----------



## Moccasin (May 18, 2010)

I would be inclined to think that if you found a tree full of all black bees you would be getting a real wild bee. Of course that is because the yellow was imported in 1857 many times but not the black bee for a very long time before that. No one at all in North America keeps black bees and they used to be called the "common black bee" here in north America A.K.A, Apis Mellifera Mellifera. Sadly I have been completely unable to purchase them for many years. I think the few I see in the population of yellow bees will be it from now on. They are not in North America anymore and are almost extinct even in Europe except for a few dedicated breeders on isolated locations. Since I think the black bees have vanished I doubt any bees out there are anything more than beekeepers' lost swarms.


----------



## Sharpbees (Jun 26, 2012)

Barry said:


> Did a cutout last year that had a marked queen.


I did one two years ago that had a marked queen. They had been in there for 2 years and she still had a good laying pattern. She had just enough paint on her to tell she had been marked.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Wow that's pretty amazing she may have swarmed right after being introduced!

Which happens. One time a guy rang me complaining that I had sold him an old queen his voice tone was pretty cut up. I assured him it was a very young queen and asked why he thought it was old. His answer was he had found swarm cells being built in his hive, and he "knew" that hives swarm if they have an old queen. So his solution to this problem was to buy a queen from me, kill his existing queen, and introduce my queen. 

Predictably just a few days after introducing the new queen the hive swarmed, taking the new queen he never saw it again. Guy pretty upset and gives me an angry call. 

So quite plausible that queen could have been in a tree somewhere 2 years later (long as mites didn't get them).


----------



## Justi (Apr 9, 2021)

bugman2 said:


> I SEE A FEW OF PEOPLE ON HERE SAY THERE BEES ARE FERAL. WHAT MAKES THERE BEES FERAL VS A SWARM THAT HAS MULTIPLIED SEVERAL TIMES AND SPREAD OUT OVER A FEW YEARS FROM SOMEONES BACKYARD BEEHIVES? JUST ASKING.





bugman2 said:


> My bees have come from swarms I caught from a building that has had bees in the same location for 19 years that I have worked there. And they are still going strong without any human intervention. When a swarm lands and someone spots it they call me to come and get it. There are 3 trees that I have spotted in the area that have bees in them also. I guess you would call them feral bees? They sure are productive little bees.


Ho I know this is a really old post but do you still keep these feral bees


----------



## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

"selective breeding from a limited gene pool"

Has gotten us where we are.
Man via selective breeding and migratory pollenation practices has genetically engineered most all of the honey bees living in north america.

My non-feral bees that swarm don't instantly become feral bees when they fly into my neighbor's tree.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JustBees said:


> "selective breeding from a limited gene pool"
> 
> Has gotten us where we are.
> Man via selective breeding and migratory pollenation practices has genetically engineered most all of the honey bees living in north america.


Let us not forget that the bees (if allowed!) will rather quickly form into brand new populations and brand new subspecies.
AND - this is using just the regular cultured bees as inputs - nothing fancy.

Let me point about the N-th time at the Primorsky bee example (enough said about that).
That bee is nothing but a mongrelized product of imported Ukrainian, Italian, and some Black/Carpathian/Caucasion bees (all of these cultured bees).

So in the US conditions we already observe localized examples of populations (and ultimately unique enough subspecies!) forming.
Look no further but at the "Appalachia bee" (or call it the "Ohio valley bee").

Basically, this is not "all is lost" situation.
Not at all.
Just the conditions need to exist (or created!) for the bees to mongrelize locally.
The honey bee by its very nature is a fluid, ever-evolving mongrel.


----------



## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

This is why I complain about folks placing much weight on genetics.
The Grass is Greener syndrome, blaming a perceived weakness in their current stock for their troubles.
This is prevalent thought as it strokes the Ego and gives the beek an out.
He is not responsible, as his bees are inferior stock......

As to localized (sub-species?) this could be nothing more than a dominant strain due to a numbers game.
One huge common source over time will tip the scales.


----------

