# Deformed Wing Virus



## cpm

How do you tell the difference between old bees with frayed wings and DWV?


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## johng

DWV is different than frayed wings. With DWV the whole wing is shrivled looking instead of just being frayed on the ends. 
Yes, you should be worried. You need to do some kind of mite count to find out just how many mites are in the hive. Do a sticky board count, ether roll, or a sugar shake to get a mite count.


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## Walliebee

DWV is not normal, so it's something you need to address. You do not mention any mite numbers, so I assume you do not monitor via counts for them. Do you have screen bottom boards? Start counting mites. 24 hour drop w/ no treatment, then a 24 and 48 hour drop w/ a powdered sugar treatment. Dusting 3 times w/ PS will not provide enough of a drop to get control. Dust a least once a week for 6 to 8 weeks, and keep count. 
If this were my hive, I'd pull the queen with a frame of bees in a nuc, and put in mite away quick strips. 

cpm, old bees look old, (no cute fuzzy hair on their thorax), often a bit darker in color, and may have frayed wings. DWV will cause the wings to spread away from the body or just the lack of wings that look like wings and more like crumpled paper.


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## PappyMAINEiac

I second checking your mite load. A quick way to tell is to pull a purple eyed drone larva from its capped cell, and count the number of mites that you find. Do this to 5 or 10 drones. If you average 2 or more mites per drone then you need to treat.


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## ky_mike

I just took these photos so you can see what it looks like



















I only have 2 hives. One has a SBB and the other doesn't. What do I use for the sticky board? I have been considering MAQ's but I can't find a place that sells less than enough to treat 10 hives and I only have 2.

Other than the bees with DWV the hive seems very healthy and is full of bees.


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## ky_mike

So I just inspected my hive without the SBB so I could pull some drone cells. I wasn't sure what you meant by "purple headed" but once I pulled them I figured it out. Unfortunately I pulled 7 and 6 had mites on them.










As soon as I pulled one of the drones out a mite crawled out and hitched a ride on this workers back










And I found a few bees on frames that had deformed wings. Here is a better shot..










This hive was a split that I made from my only other hive on April 4th and let them raise their own queen.

So from all I've read Mite Away Quick strips seem to be the treatment I am going to try. I went ahead and put a sticky board under my main hive which consists of 2 deeps and a short honey super on top. The super is almost full and capped so I guess I will be alright waiting until I extract before I treat that one?


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## [email protected]

After treating this hive with MAQS, I would put on a pollen substitute and syrup to stimulate the queen to lay a lot of brood. They will need it to recover if indeed it is not too late allready. I would also reccomend that you treat your other hive. If one has that bad a varroa problem, you can bet the other is not far behind. The good news is that if you can burn the mites and then get the queen laying (hence the pollen sub) you may be able to save the hive. It is a long time till winter. Good luck


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## jmgi

Take this for what it is worth, in my experience the presence of DWV does not mean the hive is doomed. I have had bees crawling around in the grass with DWV every year for the last four years, but you would never know anything is wrong with any of my hives. They are all strong extremely productive hives and overwinter just fine. I don't treat with anything including powdered sugar and do no mite checks whatsoever. If you see evidence of DWV in otherwise perfectly normal hives I think that pouring the chemicals to them is simply ridiculous.


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## ky_mike

jmgi said:


> Take this for what it is worth, in my experience the presence of DWV does not mean the hive is doomed. I have had bees crawling around in the grass with DWV every year for the last four years, but you would never know anything is wrong with any of my hives. They are all strong extremely productive hives and overwinter just fine. I don't treat with anything including powdered sugar and do no mite checks whatsoever. If you see evidence of DWV in otherwise perfectly normal hives I think that pouring the chemicals to them is simply ridiculous.


I was kind of wondering about this. The hive seems very healthy other than the deformed winged bees. I'm still not 100% sure on what to do but it seems the consensus is to treat. The thing that worries me the most is almost every drone cell I opened had a mite in it and I don't think they will get any better with summer right around the corner. 

The split that I made seems healthy and they have filled out almost all of the brood box with comb and it is full of honey, pollen and brood. The other hive is full of the same and almost has a full super of honey.

Decisions, decisions :scratch:


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## JRG13

jmgi said:


> Take this for what it is worth, in my experience the presence of DWV does not mean the hive is doomed. I have had bees crawling around in the grass with DWV every year for the last four years, but you would never know anything is wrong with any of my hives. They are all strong extremely productive hives and overwinter just fine. I don't treat with anything including powdered sugar and do no mite checks whatsoever. If you see evidence of DWV in otherwise perfectly normal hives I think that pouring the chemicals to them is simply ridiculous.


Maybe doing nothing works for you but not everyone will be that lucky. Personally I would opt to treat if I see virus pressure. Ignoring it will never make it better unless the cycle can be broken. Maybe your bees have some resistance or are able to overcome the mites but what if Ky Mike's bees are more susceptible or the mite pressure continues to increase? Harbouring the virus in your colonies is not good in the long run either as you risk mutation and increased virulence and you're possibly vectoring it to other bees.


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## jmgi

JRG13, when I got back into bees four years ago I bought southern Italian packages, nothing special. Yes, I think my bees have some resistance, but how do you think they got it? I have never requeened with resistant stock, any queens that were raised by the bees just open mated with whatever is in the area, that's it. I faced mite pressure four years ago and every year thereafter, and did nothing, and here I am today without any mite related losses, so how does anyone know that Ky Mike's bees are doomed without immediate treatments? You don't, and I think that continuing to recommend chemical treatments to people who's bees have certain mite levels or visible DWV is not the way to go if we want to have resistant bees at some point in the future. It's like treating your whole 3 acre lawn at the sight of one dandelion blossom, like I said before, its ridiculous, and in my opinion irresponsible. John


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## rainesridgefarm

You need to treat. Viruses are caused from stressers and in this case it is mites. Keep the mites under control and the stress is reduced. The levels are at a threshold that if you do nothing your hive will fail. I am all for resistant stock and raise some myself but in this case at this time from what he has shown us the prudent thing would be to use something. maqs comes to mind.

JMGI will you pay for new bees if he follows your advice?


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## BeeGhost

I have not used any treatments except powder sugar dumps and removing a frame of drone brood from each hive. I dont plan on eradicating Varroa, although it would be nice of course, but if I can keep their numbers in check and the hive is able to survive and produce bees/honey, im good with that. If I happen to lose a hive to Varroa, i'll replace it with a swarm catch or a split, but I dont intend on treating my hives at all, and its a risk im willing to take I suppose.

To each there own.


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## ky_mike

First of all I appreciate everyone's input. I knew before posting my problem that there would be differing opinions of what to do. I'm in my 2nd year of beekeeping and have enjoyed the whole experience (minus a few stings )

I just pulled my sticky board and counted 47 mites on the board. The board was actually only on 20 hrs. The hive was untreated when I put the board under it and I obviously didn't make the board sticky enough (1st time sticky boarder) because I observed ants carrying away some of the mites when I pulled it and mites crawling around on the board so it's hard to say how many were eaten/crawled away. I read to use spray cooking oil on the board and I only had spray olive oil because my wife is on a health kick . Next time I will use vaseline....regardless, 47 seems like a high number to me. I'll clean the sticky board dump some powdered sugar on them and get another count tonight with a stickier sticky board. I don't think I'll be surprised by a large mite count doing this so I am coming up with a plan of action.

Right now it's obvious that the SBB's are having at least somewhat of an impact on getting rid of mites, so I will be building another SBB for my other hive. I think I will initially treat with either MAQ's or Hopguard and after reading a lot of Michael Bush's information I'm going to start introducing foundationless frames to my hives as a long term preventative. I wish I would have read about the foundationless frames before I got started in beekeeping.

I'll keep this thread updated as I go and again I appreciate everyone's input.

Also if anyone knows of a MAQ distributor that sells less than a 10 hive box of the strips let me know.


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## Rick 1456

I'm in Jmgi s' court. 
People are going to keep bees they way they want and what works for them. Beeks set their own goals and determine what "success" is. For some, it is survival of the hive at all costs. Others, it is above average honey crop. 
For me, I like going up stream in a leaky boat and no paddles. The learning curve is steep, frustrations abound, but the rewards, for me, are far superior than some means others use. I learn a lot real fast. Like Jimgi, I have not had any losses due to mites, in four years. No treatments or manipulations to purposely break mites.( break in brood cycle ect.) Is it luck? Maybe in the sense I catch swarms and lucked into some resistant stock. Most species in nature respond in some way to pressure be it positive or negative. Treating alleviates that pressure. You will never know.


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## Mike Gillmore

Mike,

Make you're choice based on what _you_ are comfortable with. 

If you decide to treat then you can be fairly sure of the outcome. Treating does have it's negative side effects and takes a toll on the bees, but it knocks down the mites and gives the bees a fighting chance.

Not treating, it's a 50/50 shot you will be successful. If we could all have success with a hands off approach then it would be a no brainer. Some people try the no treatment route and experience total losses. It's not a very good feeling to watch mites completely wipe out your colonies and leave you empty handed. Ask me how I know. On the other hand some people, in some areas, are very successful without treatment. You may be one of the lucky ones as well. There is only one way to find out. Just be prepared for either outcome if you decide to let nature take it's course.


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## Vance G

People who don't monitor their mite levels and and develope a plan to deal with them are called Bee Supply Customers! Now if you have bought and can maintian vsh hives, that changes things some. It may be all you need til your vsh queen is superceded and her sucessor does not pass on the trait. Most need to do something, be it brood breaks, drone sacrifice, Essential Oils or some other chemical. Like Mr. Gilmore said, don't be a spectator.


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## Rick 1456

Maybe a reality check is in order here. If one does not have good strong stock, that is healthy, then the odds IMHO, are most likely dismal. I don't like comparing bugs to humans, but I'll digress. If you had pneumonia, the flu, or any ill health, and decided to fumigate your home for roaches, would you stay in your home ? If you did , would you be less healthy in the aftermath? 
Allowing a hive to push the mite limit with some reasonable expectation of recovery, is not a walk a way, come back later and expect a miracle. Think about what circumstances would be in place, and have to happen in a "wild" unattended bee colony. (no they do not have to be in a tree  
I'm not an expert. I'm offering my HO, what I've researched, and I have a hive that went through this, survived, and is booming as we speak. 
Best to you in what ever you decide.


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## JRG13

JMGI,

I respect your opinion on the matter. But first off I didn't recommend any chemical treatments, I just said he should treat. Plenty of organic options available (vaporized mineral oil, powdered sugar, brood break...ect.) I would just rather see some attempt to try to clean up the mites and break the cycle. Maybe he gets mites again but maybe he doesn't get any DWV, I would say that's a real improvement. Just from experience though, as I said, having a resevoir of virus in you hives is not good for the long run. You're just askiing for it to become a breaking strain against any resistances you have. Rick you have a great point as well as far as personal goals ect... Good luck with your hive(s) Mike, keep us updated.


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## Hokie Bee Daddy

Mike,

I agree that whether to treat or not is a personal decision and up to each of us to make. I can say that my own personal experience with DWV led me to become a "treater" (with MAQ's). I wanted to comment on three concerns you mentioned if you do decide to treat.

(1) Maq's will keep indefinitely in a freezer. Ten is a lot for a hobbiest beekeeper to buy and I put my excess in the freezer for next year.
(2) You will need to make a decision very soon as temperatures are approaching the upper limit which is 92 degrees F.
(3) I would treat both hives at once. I guess it is due to drifting but mites appear to move quickly from one hive to the other.

Oldtimer has written a lot of good information on DWV and "crawlers" on various threads on this site. I learned a lot from him and you may want to read some of his postings.

Best of luck to you.


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## ky_mike

Well I ended up ordering Hop guard. It seems from all of the reading I've done to be less harsh than the Maq's.

I put another sticky board under my hive again today (with vaseline on it this time) and after just a few hours I peeked under the hive and saw several mites on it already and several more bees with DWV crawling around in the grass around the hive.

It would be great if I didn't have to treat but from my limited experience with bees and taking all of the posts in this thread and others into consideration it's just my gut feeling that it's the right thing to do. It would be very discouraging to lose my hives to this.

My goal right now is just to have healthy bees. I'm close to getting my first super of honey from them and if that's all I get I'll be happy. Long term I would like to have bees that are mite resistant and I'll work towards that, but I'm sure that's everyone's long term goal.

The main reasons I decided to treat with something stronger than powdered sugar is obviously the amount of bees I'm now seeing with DWV, the amount of mites I'm now seeing and the amount of mites I'm seeing in my split already, even though they did have a break in the brood cycle by me letting them raise their own queen.

Thanks again for all your input.


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## ky_mike

2nd day 24 hour mite drop count was 71, so I'm glad I have Hopguard on order.


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## jmgi

rainsridgefarm, I respect your opinion on this matter, however, you are speaking in definite terms when you say that his hive will fail at these mite levels. There is no certainty about anything here. I have encountered many beeks here on this forum who speak this way when they say "your hive WILL fail" if you don't treat, and nothing is further from the truth. Yes, there is a possibility that they MAY fall to mites, but it is not an absolute certainty that they WILL. I personally think that beeks who treat should not tell people such as ky mike that their hives will WILL fail, this has happened a multitude of times here on this forum, and its not reality. And no, I don't think I should be monetarily responsible for anyone's mite losses if they decide to not treat based on my opinion, are you serious?


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## Mike Gillmore

ky_mike said:


> 2nd day 24 hour mite drop count was 71,


I have a feeling when you see whats on the sticky board after treating, you will be shocked. 
Keep us posted.


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## ky_mike

Mike Gillmore said:


> I have a feeling when you see whats on the sticky board after treating, you will be shocked.
> Keep us posted.


I was shocked when I counted 71. Where do these mites hide :scratch:


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## rainesridgefarm

to many people give advice on these forums at other peoples expense. I am a full time beekeeper I have seen a lot of different situations and you are correct not all of them fit but from what he describes the lesser of two evils is to treat.


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## Rick 1456

With all due respect to all on this thread and their respective opinions, this type of discussion is healthy IMHO. Those insisting treatments, chem or no, is no more correct than those advocating the opposite or something different to an individual.. Allowing nature to take its' course when you are new or only have a few hives is a tough line to draw in the sand and stick to it. When I did it, I just decided how I wanted to keep bees. More importantly, to me, how I did not want to keep bees, and committed to it. Then, I got lucky and caught a swarm. It has worked, so far, for me. Didn't happen over night either. Against the advice of many experienced opinions on this forum, I let a mite infested hive take it's course. My choice. It made it. 
It all boils down to what an individual decides is "beekeeping" to them MO. Just because you don't deal with your hives they way I do, doesn't make you wrong, me right, or you right me wrong. I will agree to disagree with you though Everyone can still learn something new


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## ky_mike

Being new to beekeeping and the fact that I right now only have 2 hives played a major role in my decision to treat. I have spent a huge amount of time reading and taking care of the hives I have (just ask my wife) I have built most of my own equipment and I would hate to not treat, lose the hives and have to start from scratch. Down the road when I have 10 or 15 hives I will feel safer letting nature take it's course and see what happens. 

In my opinion there is no right or wrong answer whether to treat or not. I think that it's obvious by the conflicting opinions you not only read here but most beekeeping sites. By starting this thread I knew there would be conflicting opinions, but I wanted to here them from people who have a lot more experience than I do to help me make my decision. Personally I would like to not treat, but in my current situation I think it's the right thing to do.

On a side note doing mite counts was something I didn't realize was so important until now. I check the inside of my hives every 7-10 days and probably only saw less than 5 mites up until I pulled the drone brood out. I have very good eyesight but still couldn't see any. The sticky board really shocked me. Obviously there are many mites falling out of my SBB's everyday and I wasn't aware of it. 

I also built and installed an SBB for my other hive yesterday. There was a bunch of activity in front of the hive yesterday, almost like they were re-orienting and today them seem to like their new screen floor and seem more active coming in and out.


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## megank

Since you're going to treat the discussion of whether or not too is moot...That said, if six of seven drone pupae had mites AND you're seeing DWV bees walking around, that hive IMO is in big trouble.

Treat then feed pollen subs or the real stuff and get as many mite "free" brood cycles you can before winter.


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## ky_mike

Just a little update on my mite and DWV situation. I'm going into week 3 of treating with Hopguard and the mite drops have really dwindled. I am seeing very few bees with deformed wings and this afternoon when I checked the outside of the hives I did not see any DWV bees. The hives are very active and the amount of dead bees in front of the hives has reduced to near none.

So far I am glad I chose to treat but would still like to have more mite resistant bees. I have already started integrating foundationless frames and I plan on requeening if the mites get back as bad as they were. I also plan to keep better track of the number of mites. I didn't realize how bad they were until I did a mite count with the sticky boards.


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## honeyshack

Ky mike,
did you do any counts during the treatmets? What were they like?
Two years ago, I had some hives much like yours. I had used MA2 but the spring temps were not high enough to fumigate the hive, hence a really poor knock down. About two weeks post treatment, I was noticing the same thing as you in bee health and in mites on a drop test. I chose the flash formic since the flow was only days away and the treatment is overnight. The amount of mites on the boards 24 hours post treatment was so shocking I could not count them. They were one on top of the other.
Not sure where they all hid but, all I can say was what an eye opener. I formic'd July 1. The honey production from these hives was 1/3 of what is normal for our area and compared to the rest of my bee yards. That fall they looked ok, not the greatest but lots of bees. Fed starting Sept 10th and wrapped by October 29th. April 15th... all dead....But please do not read to much into the all dead thing. My guess is I would have lost about 30% to the mites, about 10-15% due to nosema due to the stress they were under and the rest probably would have had some high mite numbers and some high nosema counts and would have needed to be requeend and had the book tossed at them in the way of getting healthy. I know this cause the rest of the hives that survived in the other yards needed that to get better. The rest, my best guess is the flooding and the suffocation from the freezing rain on top of the snow covered hives. Hubby almost had to dig them out with a CAT instead of the 3020 JD loader the snow was so hard.

My point, been there. The moral, like you say, understand your counts. Now the big hurdle you have is not how much honey production you get, but rather getting them healthy and fat enough for winter. Any honey gained will be a bonus.
Next spring, watch out for Nosema Apis and Ceranea. Plan on it being Ceranea. That is what we and other beekeepers in the area saw in the following spring. We had treated with a gallon of syrup, but they would not take it in. So we all drenched the hives. Those that did not get drenched, perished before the flow


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## ky_mike

@honeyshack

All my mite counts I listed on this thread http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?269942-My-Hopguard-experience

My first count was similar to yours and I just guessed the amount of mites on it.


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## matt1954

I have 150 hives. I had a bad mite count in 12 of them. So I put combination of Check Mite strips in the hive and Thymol on the bottom board. Within 30 days, these hives exploded and I had to put another deep on top. I did see the bees were propolizing the thymol bags. Whe I checked or mites, the count was very low at the end of 60 days. This was the first time I had used this combination, and Check Mite alone made signfiicant improvements previously. I dont know if the Thymol had any synergestic effect on the hives or not.


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## ky_mike

All is still looking good. I was able to split my main hive into a nuc, I have not seen any bees with deformed wings in about a week now. Prior to treating their were always DWV bees walking around on the ground outside the hives and many dead bees.


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## Aottilo

I opened one of my hives this weekend and found one bee right on top, that was half dead with what looks like deformed wings. I inspected the hives and didnt see any others. I also did a mite count with a canning jar and powdered sugar. I only counted 3 mites.
Is this deformed wing virus? If I only see one, should I be worried? Next mite test I think I will use a different method. Any reccomendations?
I attached the pictures. These pics are the best I could get with my phone, I have to buy a better camera.


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## ky_mike

I would have to say it just looks like a dead shriveled bee. Pay close attention to the outside of your hive on the ground, thats where I saw most of mine.

Edit: I was looking on my phone before. Now that I'm looking on a computer it looks like DWV.


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## Axtmann

matt1954
IMO Thymol saved you hives. Next time place the Thymol strips on top of the frames not on the bottom, it gives you a much better result. Even if bees propolizing the Thymol, there is no way for them to stop the evaporation of Thymol. Since I use Thymol, I haven't seen DVW for a few years.


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## HONEYDEW

matt1954 said:


> So I put combination of Check Mite strips in the hive and Thymol on the bottom board. .


 Check Mite !! I don't think that stuff is even legal for mite control, it is Coumaphos and one of the worst things a person can put in a hive. I see it is being sold as a beetle treatment, probably because there is so much of it sitting around that never got purchased after its toxicity got published everywhere. and Thymol needs to be on top not bottom since the vapors are heavier than air it wont be as effective from the bottom MTCW...


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## jbeshearse

Checkmite+ is certainly legal for use in bee hives. Yes, it is Coumaphos, and yes, it is a severe chemical, one that I would only use as a last resort. It cannot be used during honey production and is best used when brood rearing is lowest (wintertime). It is tough on brood and bees and humans. 

I have used it, it is good against beetles and mites. I have also used MAQS (formic acid) and will probably never use either again. The Thymol works well against mites, or has in the past for me. But once again, not while there is a flow on or supers on.


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## iivydriff

ky_mike said:


> Well I ended up ordering Hop guard. It seems from all of the reading I've done to be less harsh than the Maq's.
> 
> I put another sticky board under my hive again today (with vaseline on it this time) and after just a few hours I peeked under the hive and saw several mites on it already and several more bees with DWV crawling around in the grass around the hive.
> 
> It would be great if I didn't have to treat but from my limited experience with bees and taking all of the posts in this thread and others into consideration it's just my gut feeling that it's the right thing to do. It would be very discouraging to lose my hives to this.
> 
> My goal right now is just to have healthy bees. I'm close to getting my first super of honey from them and if that's all I get I'll be happy. Long term I would like to have bees that are mite resistant and I'll work towards that, but I'm sure that's everyone's long term goal.
> 
> The main reasons I decided to treat with something stronger than powdered sugar is obviously the amount of bees I'm now seeing with DWV, the amount of mites I'm now seeing and the amount of mites I'm seeing in my split already, even though they did have a break in the brood cycle by me letting them raise their own queen.
> 
> Thanks again for all your input.



I had a couple hives last fall that had the same symptoms as you have described. They also acted depressed they just sat around like they were sick. Brood production had dropped alot because of being in the fall. I used HopGuard and I really was impressed. In a week they were like a totally different hive. Now I would rather not treat my hives. I would like to be able to say that I have bees that need no treatment. My thinking was to go ahead and save the hives but requeen with something better and not treat again and see how it turns out. I had 8 hives last fall came out this spring with 8 hives. Now I have 25 hives I have not treated since that time. I have not seen any symptoms or signs of high mite counts since. One hive that I got from catching a swarm has a few mites, but nothing bad yet. Most of my bees are tolerant to mites, but they are prone to swarm. All of my bees have came from wild caught swarms except for two hives and some have came from cutouts. I plan on raising some queens out of a Glenn Apiaries Breeder Queen that I have and improve on my wild caught strains. In my opinion not treating and just letting the hive struggle and probably not making it through the winter would be a waste of time and money. Save the colony and requeen it with something better is going to be my system. 
One thing about the HopGuard though is that it will not kill the mites in the cells MAQS will and MAQS will get tracheal mites too. 
I also started off with natural comb I just used a guide to get the bees started, but I would not recommend it. I found that If I did not inspect at least once a week the comb got really messed up sometimes. So I changed over to the Mann Lake Standard plastic frames with the small cell foundation. I had read a million horror stories about plastic foundation, but I can tell you there is nothing wrong with the stuff Im using. I just coated them good with 1-1 sugar water and dropped them in. They draw them out just fine. Only thing is I wish I could get that foundation in sheets and put it in a wood frame, but Mann Lake does not make that foundation like that.


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## ky_mike

> MAQS will get tracheal mites too.


From what I have read Hopguard will also take care of tracheal mites, but I don't know if it is official or even true.

Your hives sounded very similar to mine and so far I have seen the same results.


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## iivydriff

ky_mike said:


> From what I have read Hopguard will also take care of tracheal mites, but I don't know if it is official or even true.
> 
> Your hives sounded very similar to mine and so far I have seen the same results.


I just thougt I had read where HopGuard would not get the Tracheal mites. I dont know where I read it at. It may have been on the Mann Lake Website or somewhere else. I do know that HopGuard will not kill the mites in the capped cells. I waited until fall there was not much brood rearing going on and treated mine. But I do know one thing HopGuard Works and if its used correctly its good stuff. I think it would be a little easier on the brood than the MAQS, but I do have a container of the MAQS and I still have some HopGuard too. I have not treated since last fall and If everything goes well I will not treat at all. But Im not going to let a hive perish when for just a few bucks I can treat them and add a new queen later and totally change that hive into one that will handle the pests better. All my bees are on small cell and natural cell also and so far Ive not had many problems with mites. I dont use screen bottom boards either. Ive noticed that beeks that use SBB's have more of a winter loss than guys who dont use them. There are beeks around me here that use SBB's and one lost all his hives last winter and another had 15 out of 40 left come spring. One guy close to me here has a big operation and has never used SBB's and he does well. But SBB's are another whole subject.


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## ky_mike

My bad...I was thinking about this article

http://www.klamathbeekeepers.org/Be...ressive_hopguard_treatment_on_honey_bees.html

At the end it talks about preliminary reports and the effect on AFB and EFB, not tracheal mites.


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## iivydriff

ky_mike said:


> My bad...I was thinking about this article
> 
> http://www.klamathbeekeepers.org/Be...ressive_hopguard_treatment_on_honey_bees.html
> 
> At the end it talks about preliminary reports and the effect on AFB and EFB, not tracheal mites.




I know HopGuard is some good stuff it works well for what its inteded for. When I treated my bees in the fall I just left the strips in and this spring most of them were still in there and they still had the odor of the treatment on them. I think they make work a little longer than they say they will. My bees had chewed on the strips some but not very much.


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## honeyshack

iivydriff said:


> ... When I treated my bees in the fall I just left the strips in and this spring most of them were still in there and they still had the odor of the treatment on them. I think they make work a little longer than they say they will...


To start i will say that i have never used hopguard. That said, I have used several other products. Not just with bees but with cows aswell. When a product is not used as labelled, problems can start to occur.
1. resistance. The residual mites will start to build a resistance to the product. It happens faster than one might think. Not using as specified could come back to bite in the not to distant future
2. Contamination. Test are done by the USA's drug and pesticide groups. In Canada it is the PMRA. They set out the guidelines for usage based on trials. Several factors go into the process...like leaving a product in longer than normal and testing the comb, left over honey, bees etc. One can run the risk of contaminated comb or honey or residuals in the products by not following the directions. Have you not heard all the commotion in the news from alot of activist groups about drug contaimation and the need to regulate livestock meds more than they are now? By not following the direction, you lend credence to these groups...That there are "people" who can not follow directions properly. Well done. inch:
3. Illegal. It is also against the law to use products like this against regulations and one can be heavily fined. 

There are many reasons why we need to follow manufactures directions. Some reasons are for our protection, some for the bees health protection, and some because good management practices with livestock should be common sense.


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## Axtmann

honeyshack, congratulation you hit the nail on the head.


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## Rick 1456

I, and my bees, are treatment free. Well, except for the adult beverages I indulge in. Maybe the girls go out at night? Sorry,,,,anyway, like I said, I do not use chems for the bees. I'm not against it if it works for you, don't believe it is the way to go for me. Having said that, and i do not wish to point a finger at anyone being honest about a possible one time thing. But lets face it, it is an easy thing to do(leave the treatment in ) and not realize the long term consequences despite the label. It probably happens way too much. Possibly foder for another thread. Just thinking out loud.


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## beemandan

Hopguard comes as a cardboard strip that has been soaked with the active solution. I have yet to see the cardboard remain for more than about a week in my hives. And when I do find a piece of it, it is dry. I don't think it will have the same issues as apistan or checkmite where the active ingredients remain for extended periods and the strips are made of a material that the bees can't chew up and remove.


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## honeyshack

beemandan said:


> I don't think it will have the same issues as apistan or checkmite where the active ingredients remain for extended periods and the strips are made of a material that the bees can't chew up and remove.


Reality is, it does not matter what you or I think will happen. 
1. Public preception that we as livestock producers who feed the world, supply the food chain, can not follow the simpliest of regulations and directions. Result, stiffer regulations, more resistance to issuing new products, public demands for safer foods and education of the farmers who supply it and more than likely tougher fines for not using as directed by the people who determined how to use it.
2. Neither you nor I have a chemical degree nor have done the research nor trials nor tested the residue, with longer applications nor seen the results of leaving a product in longer than recommended. We are beekeepers who are to follow directions with the products which we have been given the use of to produce food for the nations of the world. It is a responsibility which we should hold to the highest standards. Otherwise we are no better than other countries who export products to our respective countries which have contaminates in them, which we find offensive and get into an uproar when they reach our shores. How can we expect our food safety inspectors who inspect imports hold up our standards at the border when we, farmers, ranchers, beekeepers who feed nations, can not.

As farmers, we are charges with feeding the nation. Maybe we are only hobbiests who sell or give away a few jars of honey. Maybe we produce enough honey to feed our family. But there are those, like myself who have an awesome responsiblity to produce the best product possible because I am feeding someone else's family. Someone else's child, mother, father, etc. It is our responsibility to follow manufactures directions when treating. These directions are designed and impliemented so that there is the lowest, minimalist risk to residue to the food we eat. 
Until we sit on the committees which pass these regulations, until we manufacture the product and go through the trials which are demanded of the manufactures and do what it takes to apply for the use of the product, until we do the testing which is done by or commissioned by the manufacture to prove for food quality and submit the results, we as producers are to follow directions...no matter what we may or may not think.


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## iivydriff

honeyshack said:


> To start i will say that i have never used hopguard. That said, I have used several other products. Not just with bees but with cows aswell. When a product is not used as labelled, problems can start to occur.
> 1. resistance. The residual mites will start to build a resistance to the product. It happens faster than one might think. Not using as specified could come back to bite in the not to distant future
> 2. Contamination. Test are done by the USA's drug and pesticide groups. In Canada it is the PMRA. They set out the guidelines for usage based on trials. Several factors go into the process...like leaving a product in longer than normal and testing the comb, left over honey, bees etc. One can run the risk of contaminated comb or honey or residuals in the products by not following the directions. Have you not heard all the commotion in the news from alot of activist groups about drug contaimation and the need to regulate livestock meds more than they are now? By not following the direction, you lend credence to these groups...That there are "people" who can not follow directions properly. Well done. inch:
> 3. Illegal. It is also against the law to use products like this against regulations and one can be heavily fined.
> 
> There are many reasons why we need to follow manufactures directions. Some reasons are for our protection, some for the bees health protection, and some because good management practices with livestock should be common sense.



Well since you have not used HopGuard maybe that explains why what you just said doesnt add up. The instructions for Hopguard says you can leave the strips in the hive for the bees to remove themselves. So the product was used as labeled. So maybe you should pull up the instructions for Hopguard and read it. I guess my bees didnt chew up the cardboard as fast as expected so maybe I should notify a government inspector and have them come and issue a stiff fine to my disobedient bees. Next time I will make sure the my bees understand that they are supposed to chew up the cardboard strips in the Hopguard treatment. I will leave the directions in the hive for them to read.
Hopguard is made from natural ingredients so it does not pollute the comb. You can even use it with honey supers on. Next time you see somebody drinking a beer that is made with the same with some of the same ingredients as Hopguard you better have the person read the label for the Beer and make sure they are using it as directed. 
"Its better to stand in the corner and look a fool than to open your mouth and prove that are"


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## iivydriff

honeyshack said:


> Reality is, it does not matter what you or I think will happen.
> 1. Public preception that we as livestock producers who feed the world, supply the food chain, can not follow the simpliest of regulations and directions. Result, stiffer regulations, more resistance to issuing new products, public demands for safer foods and education of the farmers who supply it and more than likely tougher fines for not using as directed by the people who determined how to use it.
> 2. Neither you nor I have a chemical degree nor have done the research nor trials nor tested the residue, with longer applications nor seen the results of leaving a product in longer than recommended. We are beekeepers who are to follow directions with the products which we have been given the use of to produce food for the nations of the world. It is a responsibility which we should hold to the highest standards. Otherwise we are no better than other countries who export products to our respective countries which have contaminates in them, which we find offensive and get into an uproar when they reach our shores. How can we expect our food safety inspectors who inspect imports hold up our standards at the border when we, farmers, ranchers, beekeepers who feed nations, can not.
> 
> As farmers, we are charges with feeding the nation. Maybe we are only hobbiests who sell or give away a few jars of honey. Maybe we produce enough honey to feed our family. But there are those, like myself who have an awesome responsiblity to produce the best product possible because I am feeding someone else's family. Someone else's child, mother, father, etc. It is our responsibility to follow manufactures directions when treating. These directions are designed and impliemented so that there is the lowest, minimalist risk to residue to the food we eat.
> Until we sit on the committees which pass these regulations, until we manufacture the product and go through the trials which are demanded of the manufactures and do what it takes to apply for the use of the product, until we do the testing which is done by or commissioned by the manufacture to prove for food quality and submit the results, we as producers are to follow directions...no matter what we may or may not think.


 Dude go read about Hopguard before you say anymore. You might want to check out Formic Acid while you are at it. Might Away Quick Strips. There is nothing worse than someone acting like they know everything when they obviously dont have a clue what they are talking about.


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## honeyshack

Rick 1456 said:


> I But lets face it, it is an easy thing to do(leave the treatment in ) and not realize the long term consequences despite the label. It probably happens way too much.


If a treatment is going to be used...then use it properly. Follow directions and remove the product in a timely matter. That is all there is to it. Check and double check.
Its like bagging or nutting a steer. Get the elastic, put on the tool, count 1 and 2. Put on the elastic and remove count 1 and 2. If two is not found, remove elastic and start again. So how to apply this story to bees, if two strips go in, two come out...count..easy to do


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## honeyshack

iivydriff said:


> Dude go read about Hopguard before you say anymore. You might want to check out Formic Acid while you are at it. Might Away Quick Strips. There is nothing worse than someone acting like they know everything when they obviously dont have a clue what they are talking about.


Dude....it is dudette to you. And I know what i talk about. I also use formic. As long as the strips remain in, as long as the product is not removed by either the beekeeper or the bees at the appropriate time, there is a risk...always a risk.
Been working animals both cows, sheep, pigs, chickens and bees on a commercial level since 1995. Husband has been raised on a farm and this farm is third generation of working adults. I do know what i speak of when it comes to food safety... many many years in the restaurant industry cooking. As well, I have gone through the process of getting our honey house federal inspection status with a safety manual (required) designed and implimented which also includes hive logs as well as honey house logs.
I do know what i speak of. And i see first hand how much harder it is to break through public preception that we as livestock producers are abusing the drugs we use to treat our animals when problems occur.
Following manufactures directions is our only way to stay out of the line of fire from such activist groups. Truth be told, if they know we abuse one drug or do not follow directions on one drug..ie formic or hopguard, how can they trust us to follow the directions on drugs which will be more detrimental to our food industry if they are misused.


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## honeyshack

iivydriff said:


> The instructions for Hopguard says you can leave the strips in the hive for the bees to remove themselves.
> "Its better to stand in the corner and look a fool than to open your mouth and prove that are"


If the bees do not remove it, as beekeepers it is up to us to remove it in a timely fashion. We put it in there, our responsiblilty to remove it.
Just because it is made of natural ingredients, does not mean we can ignore what we put in the hive. We still have the responsibilty to take care of what we are entrusted.


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## Rick 1456

HS,
I'm on your side. My verbal buffering attempts failed To stir the pot),,,,what if you had to take a "short course" of some sort, something to show one has been "educated" to some level, before they could purchase certain products applicable to the hive? Like a drivers license? I have an "expired" commercial pesticide applicators license. I had to get one to apply roundup on a public park. How much difference is there?
I am at this time, in the lowest part of my basement with a kevlar vest on.


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## honeyshack

I understand Rick. It just bothers me, gets my hackles up when someone takes such a cavelier attitude to watching for withdrawal times.

So to put into perspective

MA2 when on the market....do not harvest honey within two weeks of treatment...still have a few pails on the farm...empty pails I should clarify

MAQS...
TIME OF APPLICATION:
To minimize residues and contamination of marketable honey, carefully follow all label instructions.
Pre-Harvest Interval (PHI): Honey: at least 2 weeks from the end of the treatment

Hop guard
This comes from the label which i googled. I can not seem to copy the link. I googled hopguard label, then had to scroll through a few to get to the actual label. It comes up as a pdf file

A maximum of three applications per year (six strips or approximately 11.52 grams of potassium salt of hop beta acids) per ten
frame brood super (chamber) is allowed. This limit includes all applications to the package (if applicable) and to the colony.
Application timing (usually during spring, summer or fall) should be based on the levels of Varroa mites observed in the colony.
Users may not take honey and wax from the brood chambers, only from the honey supers. For optimal results, apply HopGuard
when little to no brood is present in the hive.

RESISTANCE MANAGEMENT
Using this product in rotation with another approved miticide with a different mode of action will decrease the potential for Varroa
mites to develop resistance. If the strip remains in the hive more than 4 weeks remove.


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## ky_mike

Wow! I've been missing a lot during my week vacation

Not to change the subject ,but my hives are doing wonderful since the treatment :thumbsup:

I haven't seen a bee with deformed wings in a while now. 

I really don't want to get into the whole debate from the previous posts but I will say at the end of the week when I went to remove the cardboard strips they were mostly devoured by the bees and I can't see how they would last any longer in a hive.


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