# MAQS and Winter Bees - Beeculture Article



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Thought I'd share this article about formic acid and wintering bees. 

http://www.beeculture.com/winter-bees-formic-acid-used-right-a-successful-combination/


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Good article. Thanks for sharing. G


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## rv10flyer (Feb 25, 2015)

If you have more time and less money, OAV works well in August. 3-4 treatments 5-7 days apart. Then one treatment late Nov/early Dec.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

rv10flyer said:


> If you have more time and less money, OAV works well in August. 3-4 treatments 5-7 days apart. Then one treatment late Nov/early Dec.


Takes 4 times as much time, 4 times the fuel to go back to the hives, and 4 times the risk to ourselves. I don't think OAV is more cost effective when you compare all the costs..not just the cost per dose.
JW used to use oav...nuff said? He stopped for a reason. PM him and ask why.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Good article! I think aunt betty has valid criticism about OAV. It is what I use but I dont have travel or time restraints to weigh. I have helped my son do Maqs and it is quick by comparison. I have also played with dosing with bulk Formic on a daily basis that can be tailored to temperatures etc. That too is totally impractical for any number of hives or where they are in different yards.

If I were treating a lot of hives with formic I would feel I needed to have some spare queens on hand or in the fall be prepared to do some combines in case of queen loss. I dont think queen mortality is high but preparedness is peace of mind. Checkbacks for queenright would be good but the cost, if you had a lot of hives, might not be worth the labor.


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## Agis Apiaries (Jul 22, 2014)

We tried MAQS this year. Our temps were within the specs. We had some significant queen losses. We won't be using them again!


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## rv10flyer (Feb 25, 2015)

Agis Apiaries said:


> We tried MAQS this year. Our temps were within the specs. We had some significant queen losses. We won't be using them again!


I don't recall hearing this with OAV and Apiguard.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Agis Apiaries said:


> We had some significant queen losses.


This always seems to be the question. Hit and miss, but queen loss is a relevant factor in the equation. G


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

aunt betty said:


> Takes 4 times as much time, 4 times the fuel to go back to the hives, and 4 times the risk to ourselves. I don't think OAV is more cost effective when you compare all the costs..not just the cost per dose.
> JW used to use oav...nuff said? He stopped for a reason. PM him and ask why.


I will still clean up with OAV around Thanksgiving. I do not mean to bad mouth OAV... it has its uses. I simply cannot devote the time to run all over the county 3-4 straight weeks. And further, it makes me more interested in not looking in on them because I don't want to get a bunch of stuff opened up while vaping others then running around. Frankly... it's just not for me as a standard treatment. I am not experienced enough or smart enough to know the exact reasons. But I suspect trying to get ahead of the mites during summer while some of my colonies had 8-10 frames of capped brood is just impossible. Something like 20% of the mites are phoretic where OAV can kill them while there is capped brood. There's just too many reproducing... I will say that my best bees at "mite removal" were helped greatly by the OAV. They actually showed improvement and MAQS showed almost a negligible mite drop on those colonies. The other colonies with lots of brood and bees of "Italian" heritage had 151 mites in 100 drone brood when I went to give them their 3rd of three treatments. MAQS killed a TON of mites in those hives. They will be requeened next spring. I can do better in that regard.

All told I'd like to get to the point of using MAQS in later summer followed by OAV around Thanksgiving and then hoping that will keep them healthy and relatively lightly loaded with mites until the following summer. Our state apiarist seemed to think it was working for him.



Agis Apiaries said:


> We tried MAQS this year. Our temps were within the specs. We had some significant queen losses. We won't be using them again!


Define "within" specs? High end of them? How old were the queens? One pad or two? How did you place the pads (where at in the stack and where at on the top bars)? Did you remove entrance reducer as instructed? Did you offset boxes?


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

JW, Thanks for the link. Great article. I don't think JW is bashing OAV at all. He is just being honest. For a medium to large scale operation, it can be impractical. Under the best of circumstances it takes time to vaporize hives. MAQs it is very quick in comparison. My experience shows it takes about half the time to use MAQS compared to OAV. Open the hive place the pads in and remove a few days later. Admittedly, this is an abbreviated version of everything that needs to be done but it is quicker than OAV on a per hive basis. Both treatment options have their positives and their negatives. Fortunately, we have both options to use. Personally, I am using OAV. I have less than 10 hives and all are at my home. The extra time is not the issue for me.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

The article pretty much sums up my feelings on formic acid. Providing you have the right temperature window in late summer, it offers a really nice one-treatment knock-down. I don't have enough uses of it to be statistically significant, but I've never had it kill a queen. The WVU method using 50% liquid formic acid did report queen losses due to queen balling before they started adding HBH to the mix. Based on that I've always either added HBH or put a paper towel with a few mL of HBH into the hive during treatment.

I have been thinking that formic acid around August followed by OAV once the hive is broodless in winter might make a really effective combination. The reason I have not adopted OAV yet is because I've been waiting for state approval in VA (where I buy my supplies) and WV (where the bees are). When I know the approvals are in place I expect to take another look.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Seems to me, the main problem with a late Fall treatment of formic acid is how to get a new queen if the treatment causes queen loss?

Last year, I did a single OAV treatment at Thanksgiving, and didn't need to treat again until early in the following Fall, which was done with Apiguard. Will do a single OAV treatment again this Thanksgiving. Next year, I might switch the Apiguard treatment to a MAQS treatment because I could probably still source a queen in the early Fall.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

shinbone said:


> Seems to me, the main problem with a late Fall treatment of formic acid is how to get a new queen if the treatment causes queen loss?


Yes. But for that matter, rolling a queen during inspection carries the same problem. And then there's the normal risk (pretty staggering odds) of losing a colony over the winter. Our solution this year was to make a couple of nucs this summer to overwinter, to use as backups. Here's hoping we don't need to use them, but odds are good we'll need at least one.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Only 2 options:
1. To take the queen out before treatment.
2. To have more nuc hives for queen loss replacement.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

shinbone said:


> Last year, I did a single OAV treatment at Thanksgiving, and didn't need to treat again until early in the following Fall, which was done with Apiguard. Will do a single OAV treatment again this Thanksgiving. Next year, I might switch the Apiguard treatment to a MAQS treatment because I could probably still source a queen in the early Fall.


What sort of mite counts allow you to be confident that Thanksgiving is soon enough? The population dynamics of hives and mites are the worry. The colony population peaks in summer and then falls. Mite populations stay about level from mid summer, or continue to rise. So mites per bee rise. That leads to sick bees going into late fall and winter. This argues for a summer knock-down so you have healthy bees in the fall. Which is not to say that a fall _coup de grace_ with OAV is not a dandy idea.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

This thread reminded me to check to see if WV and VA have gotten around to approving OAV. The closest thing I've found to a list of states that have processed the approval is Brushy Mountain's list of states in which they will sell OA and the vaporizers. Evidently the two states in which I do bee biz have now done so.

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Oxalic-Acid/productinfo/727/

I would note that the Brushy Mountain page above states: "Oxalic acid applications are for outdoor use only and should be used only in late fall or early spring when little or no brood is present. DO NOT use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of honey."


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

"_and pay attention to the required maximum daytime temperature range (between 10°C and 29.5°C)_".
In Portugal the temperatures outside are a puzzle for doing organic treatments dependent on temperature. In late August when I do my treatments for fall/winter there are days with temperatures above 30 ° C (86F). Recommendations for the use of MAQS in this respect are quoted above. Do you think the manufacturer is being overly cautious and can we use the MAQS with temperature between 30 ° C and 35 ° C (86F and 95F)?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> "_and pay attention to the required maximum daytime temperature range (between 10°C and 29.5°C)_".
> In Portugal the temperatures outside are a puzzle for doing organic treatments dependent on temperature. In late August when I do my treatments for fall/winter there are days with temperatures above 30 ° C (86F). Recommendations for the use of MAQS in this respect are quoted above. Do you think the manufacturer is being overly cautious and can we use the MAQS with temperature between 30 ° C and 35 ° C (86F and 95F)?


The procedures for using formic acid or MAQS are actually intended for the pads or jells to be at about 93 F (about 34F), accomplished by putting them above the brood nest where the bees are regulating the temperature. That controls the rate at which the formic acid vaporizes. 

A few degrees warmer most likely would work, if still below brood nest temperature.

Cutting back the dose might allow use at higher temperature, but just how much? Ordinary beekeepers would need some sort of instrument to monitor concentration.

And allowing in dilution air would probably allow higher temperature, but again, how much?

I've done the West Virginia University method twice. That uses 50% formic acid solution on absorbent pads, and their procedure causes very fast vaporization. They also recommend blocking off most of the hive ventilation, contrary to the instructions for MAQS. Both times the hives survived. However, the WVU method has not been thru the sort of rigorous testing that an approved pesticide such as MAQS has. 

I am convinced that the time when temperature is critical is the first day or two. After that, the formic acid has largely evaporated and higher temperatures are not a problem. After a week, it is hard to even smell a trace of FA on MAQS. But, of course, you have to follow the label directions.


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## umchuck (May 22, 2014)

I've used MAQS and like them, but I always put them in the hive during a couple cooler summer days and always installed them in evening hours so instead of the heat going up inside the hive, the temp is decreasing, helps getting them used to it.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> ...Do you think the manufacturer is being overly cautious and can we use the MAQS with temperature between 30 ° C and 35 ° C (86F and 95F)?


Eduardo, I have the same temperatures (>90 F) from May through mid October. I have the MAQS in the freezer, but have held off because of the temperatures. I've read many, many threads here where people report queen loss over 90 F. The acid is reported to 'flash' at those temperatures, killing brood and queens, (some with queen and brood loss have reportedly not allowed for adequate ventilation).

I'm wondering about a smaller dose application (using a fume board or some sort of pad or towel) like some report in common use in Europe. Does anyone here have experience with that? Anyone using only one MAQS pad?


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Thank you for your inputs Phoebee, umchuck and Lburou. Possibly I will rehearse with some hives to analyze the results.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beepro said:


> Only 2 options:
> 1. To take the queen out before treatment.
> 2. To have more nuc hives for queen loss replacement.


Just too inefficient, beepro. I tossed the idea around. But I'd rather she stay there in the care of her colony. If you remove the queen for 7 days you get the pleasure of going through and cutting out a bunch of nearly capped queen cells when you reintroduce the queen. Miss one and it's curtains for her anyway. 

I appreciate those taking my OAV comments are face value and not acting like I am claiming it doesn't work or anything. I just didn't have great overall results with it. Still part of the arsenal. Actually good discussion in the thread. I forgot that I started it.

For MAQS - I waited for highs in the low 80s and upper 70s before I put mine in. Did it on a cool early morning. In the 50s probably. Didn't take much time at all even with driving between yards. It did get up near the max temperature range, but it was around day 5 or 6 when the formic is gone anyway. I think the manufacturer says it's a three day treatment and four days for the colony to recover without a beekeeper jacking around in it.

Makes sense to me. Even with some very minor queen loss possibly associated with it. If you plan for that (I had a couple extra queens in nucs)... it is just part of the way you play it. I figure I will almost always be condensing down a couple of colonies in the fall anyway. If MAQS makes that decision more evident for me by ending a failing queen's life... so be it. It's the risk going in and I didn't experience any of it on the first go-round.


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