# How far must a queen fly?



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

There are quite a few documentations of experiments trying to mate within greenhouses, towers etc., basically without positive results. There have been some documentations of breeding very close to the queens apiary but I dont know if it was controlled to the extent it determined how well (how many drones) she mated. I had good success breeding with half a dozen or so colonies when there were no other known bees in range. Again not documented as to how much sperm stored or developed ovarioles. Brood patterns were good. I have not seen really convincing data to support that the queens effectively and instinctively avoid mating with drones from their own colonies. With many surrounding colonies the odds simply favor outbreeding. It would be good question to see answered scientifically not empirically!


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

sparkyApis said:


> I have read many posts in these pages where beeks have put in a lot of effort trying to breed for some characteristic, especially mite resistance, by trapping feral swarms or importing a queen or two which is said to carry resistance and then multiplying from selected colonies. Most of these efforts feature a small number of hives, that is a tiny breeding population, and no control over mating, the queen goes where she wishes and mates with whichever of the local drones take her fancy. The mechanics of genetic segregation and population ratios mean that these efforts are pretty much doomed. For anything other than the most simple genetic traits it is most unlikely that the desired combinations will be retained in a breeding population of four or five or even ten or fifteen colonies. Those who have some control over their drone population have more success but are all too prone to being wiped out by a change in the local bee population such as a new commercial operation moving in.
> 
> So, how can we get some control over the mating of our bees? AI is one way but not acceptable or accessible to all.
> 
> ...


I think it might take a large tent/structure/greenhouse/stadium or something but I really have no idea what kind of space she needs.

I have however put a fair amount of time into pondering how large an area of isolation is required for totally reliable open mating. About 7000-10,000 acres should do it. I think 4000-5000 if you massively up the drone population to 30-40x that of your queens.

disclaimer: I have not performed real science to prove any of this. My current thinking is just that, ideas and observations, not solid conclusions.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Bees are very energy conservative. The queen will only fly as far as needed to get mated. I know a commercial breeder who has a mating yard right under a DCA, and tunnel clouds of drones can be seen directly overhead of queens getting mated. Randy Oliver has a pic of a drone funnel cloud on his cell phone, or at least he used to.

Writings from over 100 years ago beekeepers were looking for DCA's to place mating nucs at. Sorry, I've read so many of the older authors that I do not recall which one or ones stated so in their writings.


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## sparkyApis (Apr 9, 2021)

crofter said:


> There are quite a few documentations of experiments trying to mate within greenhouses, towers etc., basically without positive results.


Are you able to point me to any of these? Someone else must have thought about it for small scale breeding where there is not the opportunity to influence the drone population in the wild. If the queen has an aversion to her own drones then that part can be managed by controlling the captive drone supply but if there are minimum flight time requirements then that is a little harder. If it is something like the dragons of Pern then we are in trouble.
Sel.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

There are several queen breeders with dispersed yards and varied genetics who have tried to flood (with different blood lines) areas around their apiaries in order increase chances of getting desired genetics during open mating. In many cases you'll see them selling their queens at a discount or even gift to other keepers nearby just to get further geographic advantages. There are some disadvantages and advantages in this attempt so I would think in areas with limited large-scale pollination effort or keepers your odds for success are slight better. As I add in hygienic blood line and learn grafting this year, I am hoping to at least influence some traits in my area.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

As Ray Marler says in #4 above, I cant remember where I read it.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

crofter said:


> As Ray Marler says in #4 above, I cant remember where I read it.


Ya know Crofter, it seems to me it was UCD here in California that did a large area netted in that failed to mate queens. Don't quote me on it because I can not remember for sure if it was them. But it was a quite large area netted or screened in somehow, it was not a small project, and queens did not get mated. Seems to me like this was 30 or so years ago. I've gotten gray since then so don't remember as well as I once did.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

sparkyApis said:


> So, how can we get some control over the mating of our bees? AI is one way but not acceptable or accessible to all.


OK, here:


> With a good, saturated drone background, the queen bee does not have time to fly far, it is better to say this - the drones do not allow her to fly far and inseminate her within the mating yard,


Just read the whole thing while at it (there are good YT videos referenced in it):








This is how community mating yard looks like


So, friends, this is how a community mating yard should look like. You bring your virgin queen. You mate her with the desirable drones. You take her home. Probably pay some fee (only fair and good business for the mating facility provider). Pay attention to the ingenues equipment - standard...




www.beesource.com


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## sparkyApis (Apr 9, 2021)

Someone has taken the idea to an extreme but I am unable to find any reference to the use or success achieved. Probably more fiddling about than AI.
A mating chamber for honeybee

Sel.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

I do not recall reading any where that the big cadge idea worked.
I have read Seely I think they did get queens mated out to 14KM from the drone source.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Below is my conjectured vision of the situation from what I have read.

Drones and queens both have a range limitation based on fuel consumption and flying speed. Drones can stop off at different hives and get refueled; the queen, not very likely. I suggest the queen will basically bee line out till nearing the point of no return and if she has not been boarded will start dallying around likely DCA's on the way back to fuel up. Rinse and repeat for up to three days till she gets her semen tank filled.

I believe that I am probably sitting on the edge of a Drone congregation area according to descriptions of typical locations. Google maps shows my location at a crossroad of highways at the edge of a glacial morraine. Also a tree line. A 50 acre or more gravel pit is only a few hundred yards from my bee yard. So far I have never had a queen fail to mate. I see very little signs of drift from the bees I have had from basically the same queen breeder. Guessing of course, but I think drones from my own yard are gettting the tricks!


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## StefanS (Jul 6, 2019)

Little bit about mating flights from other countries -








Observation of the Mating Behavior of Honey Bee (Apis mellifera L.) Queens Using Radio-Frequency Identification (RFID): Factors Influencing the Duration and Frequency of Nuptial Flights


We used radio-frequency identification (RFID) to record the duration and frequency of nuptial flights of honey bee queens (Apis mellifera carnica) at two mainland mating apiaries. We investigated the effect of a number of factors on flight duration and ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov






https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s13592-019-00677-w.pdf


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> I do not recall reading any where that the big cadge idea worked.
> I have read Seely I think they did get queens mated out to 14KM from the drone source.


Saw a presentation by our provincial apiarist a few years back. He was talking about summer he spent as a student working toward his degree. If memory serves correctly, they used 14 drone colonies, but that particular number is vague in my memory. They went up into a northern natural gas area where there are long strait roads that go for miles and miles, and absolutely no feral bees. They set the drone colonies down, then proceeded up the road for 20km or so, setting a mating nuc with a cell every half km as they went. they went back a month later to check the results. Every mating nuc out to 18km had a mated queen laying worker brood, but those beyond that had not successfully mated. they had taken precautions to ensure none of the mating nucs had drones when they were set out.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

grozzie2 said:


> Saw a presentation by our provincial apiarist a few years back. He was talking about summer he spent as a student working toward his degree. If memory serves correctly, they used 14 drone colonies, but that particular number is vague in my memory. They went up into a northern natural gas area where there are long strait roads that go for miles and miles, and absolutely no feral bees. They set the drone colonies down, then proceeded up the road for 20km or so, setting a mating nuc with a cell every half km as they went. they went back a month later to check the results. Every mating nuc out to 18km had a mated queen laying worker brood, but those beyond that had not successfully mated. they had taken precautions to ensure none of the mating nucs had drones when they were set out.


What do you envision as the enabling mechanism? That the virgin queens met the drones half way, or that one or the other "went the extra mile". It would appear that one or the other had to be able travel a return flight of more than 18 km. 

Could the drones have managed to relocate by refueling at the mating nucs? It would be nice to know how far each sex actually travelled on mating day. Amazing in such a scenario without landmarks how the congregation areas could have been identified.

It would be interesting to see a set up where only same yard drones were available and see how many miles the queens then logged before mating. ie; did there appear to have been any mechanism to avoid the geographically close mating.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Over the years in the UK there have been people postulating claims of 'Apiary Vicinity Mating' having occurred, primarily with AMM. The underlying idea is that in a country with lousy weather, native bees have adapted to take advantage of very brief weather windows - so drones and queens fly the shortest distance possible. I don't know of any hard evidence for this - just a handful of 'true believers'.
LJ


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Isolated Matings without owning an island...


We always have questions posted about isolating lines and breeding pure bees etc. It is true that most commercial queen breeders in this country are open mating and there is a high probability that the offspring of the queens may have some crosses mixed in. Most of us cannot afford to own a...




www.beesource.com


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## Norcal Mtns (Mar 28, 2021)

Here are some random articles that might be interesting to some. Other folks might have better sources.

Bee Culture, July 18 2018
“More than 96% (of the drones) come from apiaries located at an average of 900 m from the DCA.”

“Drones frequently fly 2 to 3 km but can fly 6km or more.”
https://www.jstor.org/page-scan-delivery/get-page-scan/25085360/0

Drones can mate at a DCA or less often in the flyway to a DCA.
————
The queen can fly for 60 minutes or more, but the majority of flights are between 3 and 20 minutes per:
https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/insects/insects-05-00513/article_deploy/insects-05-00513.pdf


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

So many times I see drones inside the mating nucs as queens emerge and get ready to fly. It might be that, at least in some situations, the drones actually lead the queens to mating.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

RayMarler said:


> the drones actually lead the queens to mating.


No need to lead her anywhere.
They catch her right outside and call it done.

According to a person who does this for living (running a mating yard):


> the drones do not allow her to fly far and inseminate her within the mating yard,


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

LOL, yes, I did not say they led her far!
From my own experience, queens don't fly any further than they have to in order to get mated. And there are many writings of others over the last century and more that have witnessed queens mating above the mating yard.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Recently we were driving through the Arizona desert for several hours. No trees, small scrub plants, no signs of people at all. Started seeing some blooms. Earlier my wife had commended me for not mentioning bees for several days. I said, "I'll bet there are bees on those." She said, "Nope, no bees here."

We had a great time taking in beautiful scenery and visibility was many miles. We did that routine/exchange several times and occasionally stopped to stretch (and look for bees). 

They may have been African. Talked with a guy at the Grand Canyon who used "purgatory yards" to requeen swarms that are AHB. They may have been living under rocks (though I saw no tiles, rocks or anything I though they would use for a home). However they got there (it was inhospitable for most of the year), they were there. 

I don't know how you get to a large enough area to say "no bees" unless it's an ocean or a 100 mile salt flat. Even then, .....


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

RayMarler said:


> So many times I see drones inside the mating nucs as queens emerge and get ready to fly.


Indeed, I too see this to be rather a usual thing.

As well I observed how a cloud of drones chased the queen right into the hive.
She landed and ran in - the drones followed in.

So unlike in wide spaced wild conditions, in well populated areas the queen mating thing seems quite a bit different.
Just a lot of drone all over the place for the queen to need to fly much.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

GregB said:


> No need to lead her anywhere.
> They catch her right outside and call it done.
> 
> According to a person who does this for living (running a mating yard):


While I believe this to be true, it also serves some breeder's marketing. I recently heard a breeder of very specific bees, saying that like college kids, the queens find the bars and hotspots closest to their hives. I'm figuring if you keep a few thousand drones flying that queens would have a rough time mating with anything else.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I listened to Roger Patterson on a BIBBA talk mention that they tried to make a mating area inside a greenhouse. If I remember correctly the queens did not mate inside the greenhouse so they opened up the top windows and they successfully mated. He said they seemed to have no problem finding their way back into the structure. For the life of me I cannot find it again.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I've always liked having a drone producing colony in my beeyard when I have queens to be mating. I've done this for the last 15+ years.


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## StefanS (Jul 6, 2019)

New research on mating flights - DEFINE_ME


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

joebeewhisperer said:


> While I believe this to be true, it also serves some breeder's marketing. I recently heard a breeder of very specific bees, saying that like college kids, the queens find the bars and hotspots closest to their hives. I'm figuring if you keep a few thousand drones flying that queens would have a rough time mating with anything else.


Hence, the proliferation of "Ladies Night". 

Alex


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

grozzie2 said:


> Saw a presentation by our provincial apiarist a few years back. He was talking about summer he spent as a student working toward his degree. If memory serves correctly, they used 14 drone colonies, but that particular number is vague in my memory. They went up into a northern natural gas area where there are long strait roads that go for miles and miles, and absolutely no feral bees. They set the drone colonies down, then proceeded up the road for 20km or so, setting a mating nuc with a cell every half km as they went. they went back a month later to check the results. Every mating nuc out to 18km had a mated queen laying worker brood, but those beyond that had not successfully mated. they had taken precautions to ensure none of the mating nucs had drones when they were set out.


That study sounds familiar maybe it was 18 km. And 14 drone hives.
so yes they can be mated to drones from up to 18K away.
to get prefect mateing with "known/placed" drones would take a big block of dirt like 32KM x 32KM with the mateing NUCs in the middle and the drone hives at 8 points on the compass.
Or a valley in a desert where there are no bees till you place them there.
good find @grozzie2 
GG


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## sparkyApis (Apr 9, 2021)

There is some interesting stuff in all this, some things which I picked out: 
Drones will mate with wooded models.
Mating behaviour of drone honey bees with queen models (Apis mellifera L.)
Drones will mate with tethered queens but queens must be receptive for mating to occur. 
Observations of Mating Behaviour in the Honeybee
Drones are not ubiquitous in the landscape, attracting drones outside of congregation areas is difficult.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00218839.1963.11100059
Several have said that matings will take place above apiaries. This implies that the minimum distance a queen needs to fly, if any, is short. Does this require that the local drones have established a DCA near to home? Matings using mating yards provide a means of, among other things, preserving an ecotype but they are of low utility in the early stages of a breeding program where careful control of individual mating is of great advantage.
Several have said that they recall work which showed that cage matings were unsuccessful. I'm still trying to find references this work, maybe there are clues in the detail.
@StefanS provided a link to a novel study of drone flight and DCA's. A bee with a radar transponder, who knew? This suggests that DCA's exist across seasons which implies that there are clues detectable by the drones which identify these locations and that these areas are more restricted than previously thought. Neither do the queens appear to rely on random search to find the drones.
What makes a queen receptive I wonder. Do the location clues play a part in this? If it was simply the presence of drones then a cage mating should be possible. What would happen if a mating cage was set up under a DCA? Is it the queen that is disinterested in a cage or the drones which are not motivated? The knowledge of bee pheromones continues to increase, maybe there is a bee aphrodisiac in there which would work in this situation. How do the bees find each other in the long distance mating trials? 
So many questions, thanks everyone for the interesting discussion so far.

Sel.


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## ShelleyStuart (Jan 4, 2010)

sparkyApis said:


> This suggests that DCA's exist across seasons which implies that there are clues detectable by the drones which identify these locations and that these areas are more restricted than previously thought. Neither do the queens appear to rely on random search to find the drones.


There's a DCA that was first mapped in England in the 1700s and was still active in 2015: Rediscovering the first Drone Congregation Area. I'm convinced that bees use landscape clues to set up DCAs from year to year -- they are persistent. The clues may include data that humans can't sense (like UV light or possibly gravitational).

I remember hearing (possibly at a lecture) that drones come out of the hive low and find a DCA very near the hive while queens come out high and fly to more distant DCAs. This makes sense to me as it would allow a queen to avoid inbreeding (in a natural hive situation). I can't find the research to back this up, however.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

ShelleyStuart said:


> I remember hearing (possibly at a lecture) that drones come out of the hive low and find a DCA very near the hive while queens come out high and fly to more distant DCAs. This makes sense to me as it would allow a queen to avoid inbreeding (in a natural hive situation). I can't find the research to back this up, however


@ShelleyStuart I recall the same.
it was offered that "close" for drones would save fuel, and maximize air time, as they make 3-5 flights a day for most of their life.
While the Queen makes 3-7 flights in total and the ratio is like 1000 to 1 drones to Virgins so the long flight fuel is the least number of flights.

Local mating as I understand it only happens if the Virgin fails to find a DCA.

DCAs from year to year -- they are persistent. The clues may include data that humans can't sense (like UV light or possibly gravitational). OR lay lines......

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have the feeling that some of the ideas presented may have been analogies to support assumptions. Do we have data to suggest distances where matings actually occured were deliberately skewed against close matings. Does a queen zoom out to her max range and then drop to trolling speed till she gets a "bite" on the way home?


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## ShelleyStuart (Jan 4, 2010)

Gray Goose said:


> DCAs from year to year -- they are persistent. The clues may include data that humans can't sense (like UV light or possibly gravitational). OR lay lines......


Or ley lines. 

I watched my mom douse for water when I was a kid, and she doused for our own well, so my mind's open. But I do suspect both are due to gravitational forces.


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## ShelleyStuart (Jan 4, 2010)

crofter said:


> Does a queen zoom out to her max range and then drop to trolling speed till she gets a "bite" on the way home?


I think it's easier to study drones and DCAs, but with newer micro-radio tracking we might be able to get some really good data on queen mating flights.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> I have the feeling that some of the ideas presented may have been analogies to support assumptions. Do we have data to suggest distances where matings actually occured were deliberately skewed against close matings. Does a queen zoom out to her max range and then drop to trolling speed till she gets a "bite" on the way home?


I did read a fair amount on Queen mating just when I started making my own queens several years ago.
As I recall from actual tests.
there is a built in mechanism to prevent inbreeding.
the Queen goes low and fast for 2 ish miles then up to look for DCA
the drone wants to be in the DCA for max time, the fuel load they take gives them like 20-30 min depending on winds.
If the DCA is 10 min away then they get 10 Min there cuz it is 10 out and 10 back. so they look for first DCA longest time there short flight back.
there was a study where guy put mating NUCs down a gas line at 1/2 KM spacing from the drone hives. Queens were mated out to 18KM, was not stated where the DCA was, but the inference is the Queen can get mated to drones Appx 18 km distant.
Close mating's were "one offs" did they happen yes was it the norm no. Seems as I recall they stated If she did not find a DCA she was mated inbound, to the outbound drones.
the DCAs seems fixed by some local physical phenom, like @ShelleyStuart suggested.
So from this I did NOT do any drone hives as I would need 8 sets S,SE,E,NE,N,NW,W,SW, at 1.5 to 2 miles out to have a needed effect.
I do have bees in several places, so I move Virgins to the one that seem to do the best. One place I have never got a queens once mated to over winter, so I do not go there any more.
A "community" effort with 8 drone yards a nd one mating yard would IMO work the best. 
This would need 4 -6 keepers to "cooperate" be like herding Cats.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

What would seem to make sense is (I think, possibly) influence by the belief that inbreeding would be a greater survival risk to the colony than would increased risk from predators and natural hazards, that increase with time and distance travelled by the queen. I am feeling we may be jumping to conclusions in this regard and are influenced by many analogies generations old.

We are getting to technologies now that have a better chance of detailing the events and perhaps explaining the _why_ of what occurred.

GG. I like your analogy of herding cats!


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> @ShelleyStuart I recall the same.
> it was offered that "close" for drones would save fuel, and maximize air time, as they make 3-5 flights a day for most of their life.
> While the Queen makes 3-7 flights in total and the ratio is like 1000 to 1 drones to Virgins so the long flight fuel is the least number of flights.


COVID brain ... maybe this will help someone else remember. It was a German lady presenting in Britain who shared that information about DCA's, Drones making shorter flights, Queens longer, etc., to help prevent inbreeding.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Lee Bussy said:


> COVID brain ... maybe this will help someone else remember. It was a German lady presenting in Britain who shared that information about DCA's, Drones making shorter flights, Queens longer, etc., to help prevent inbreeding.


Old brain...

test was in Canada, I think, U of G I think sponsored, may have been discussed at the Britain talks as I have played the last 10 years worth...

Was a German lady talking of DCAs and putting virgin in balloon held cadges etc. my first "dart" they were different discussions.

GG


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I found it .. I think. Gudran Koeniger:


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Lee Bussy said:


> COVID brain ... maybe this will help someone else remember. It was a German lady presenting in Britain who shared that information about DCA's, Drones making shorter flights, Queens longer, etc., to help prevent inbreeding.


Stating that the reason is to prevent inbreeding though is conjecture, is it not. If there is only one suitable drone congregation in the area then the fuel saving factor does not fly. Now perhaps if it happens to be close and the queen overflies it she will pick it up on the way back or on subsequent flights not go out so far. How do explain the observations of matings immediate to the queens colony. Was she waylaid leaving or on the way back.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

How do we explain 70°F on Christmas? Statistical anomaly.


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## ShelleyStuart (Jan 4, 2010)

crofter said:


> Stating that the reason is to prevent inbreeding though is conjecture, is it not. If there is only one suitable drone congregation in the area then the fuel saving factor does not fly. Now perhaps if it happens to be close and the queen overflies it she will pick it up on the way back or on subsequent flights not go out so far. How do explain the observations of matings immediate to the queens colony. Was she waylaid leaving or on the way back.


Sure; we can't ask. But it does make sense -- in the wild.

In your original situation, you had about 6 genetic lines in a small space. Therefore the DCAs in your immediate vicinity are a mix of unrelated genetics; only about 17% of the drones were brothers of your queen. Based on statistics, you were likely to not see inbreeding (or high amounts of inbreeding).

In the wild hives aren't nearly as crowded, so a DCA close to a queen's hive is more likely to have a higher ratio of brother drones in it. A queen would want to avoid mating in that DCA.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Two other videos on this subject that I am reminded of:


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## Outdoor N8 (Aug 7, 2015)

An anecdotal surmise on my part:
A few years back my main queen yard started producing queens whose progeny were 10% feisty.
I then learned, that a lady 5 blocks away started "keeping bees" and had ordered two packages out of Texas from a company "understood" 'to have AHB influenced genetics'.
At this point, I believe queens will mate closer to an apiary than we realize.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Outdoor N8 said:


> An anecdotal surmise on my part:
> A few years back my main queen yard started producing queens whose progeny were 10% feisty.
> I then learned, that a lady 5 blocks away started "keeping bees" and had ordered two packages out of Texas from a company "understood" 'to have AHB influenced genetics'.
> At this point, I believe queens will mate closer to an apiary than we realize.


COULD there have been a lady 2 miles away with hot bees.
Are you sure in a 15 KM radius circle there were no other hot hive.

their presents next door confirms nor denies anything unless you have the whole area mapped out where the hives are and if any are hot. 

That reminds me of a story,, A dog killed some of my chickens, If I shoot the dog next door did I get the guilty dog?

It could have been, or it may have not been,, where she found a feisty drone.

You do have a couple data points, with only 20 or so more you could come to a conclusion.


GG


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