# Anyone use a Box Miter Joint for building supers...



## Beadtalker (Jul 12, 2010)

I use box joints all the time. There is a plan for making one on this website. I actually have one made for both 3/4 and 7/8 joints. Use a good stack dado set for the cuts. It is important that the cuts be flat. For that reason a wobble cut won't work.

Bruce


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

I built one of those box joint sleds for my table saw. It works great. I have an old table saw that I just leave setup for cutting the box joints. The sled isnt that complicated to build, but it is well worth the time. I think the box joint is the superior joint for the beehives. If you have a jig setup to make them, they go real quick. You wont be sorry you took the time to build it. If i could figure out how to upload images, I would post a few pics....

Rob


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

I may have figured it out....


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

box joint is best. no doubt about it, but it required the use of a stack of dado blades, and a little bit of set-up time. Totally worth doing if you have the gear to do it. many table saws have short arbors that will not accomodate a stack of dados.

I have made some with rabbet joints and i like them well enough. Quick to make and pretty solid when glued and nailed/stapled. It's no box joint, but it seems to be plenty for a hive body

I think with the miter joint, you have significantly less wood between the brad/staple and the very edge of the joint. this could result in the hardware tearing out if you appied a "squishing force" diagonally on the box. If you were careful though, this force isn't something the hive body would see in use, so probably NBD. Then again, you only have to drop it once for there to be a problem.

Since it only takes seconds longer to make the rabbet versus the miter joint, i'd go with the rabbet.


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## Denis Allan (May 13, 2012)

Have any of you used a lock miter joint.. I was just checking my router box and found the bit I was looking for.. has a 45 degree angle with a protruding finger and rabbit all in the same side.. 

Denis Allan


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Denis Allan said:


> Have any of you used a lock miter joint.. I was just checking my router box and found the bit I was looking for.. has a 45 degree angle with a protruding finger and rabbit all in the same side..
> 
> Denis Allan


Search "locking miter joint". We have/had a member named Alex Cantacuzene who was a big proponent of the locking miter for boxes. I think it is a good solid joint and it does eliminate end grain. Alex had 5 hives that he built all with locking miter joints. I met him and took a look at his boxes and I was impressed. I personally haven't used that joint though, but plan to one day.


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

Denis Allan said:


> Have any of you used a lock miter joint.. I was just checking my router box and found the bit I was looking for.. has a 45 degree angle with a protruding finger and rabbit all in the same side..
> 
> Denis Allan


This is why I frequent this site, I never stop learning. :thumbsup:


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

Still can't find the delete button for double post.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Lock miter joint should be fine IF you have very flat lumber. Otherwise it's hard to get the joint together.

Plain miter joints will fail very quickly -- the wood will expand and contract with temperature and humidity changes, especially humidity changes, and the shape of the contact area changes. The wood will fail, no matter what glue you use or what other fasteners you have in there, and they will open in quickly. 

Stick with rabbet or box joints, either will work nicely and are less trouble to make. If you are concerned about end grain, coat it with boiled linseed oil and then prime with a good alkyd primer. Should stay watertight for decades.

Peter


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

(if you use all 45 Degree angles there is zero end grain exposed) 

the next round of boxes i do im going to use all 45 cuts and possibly biscuits.


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## Denis Allan (May 13, 2012)

]

Hope this works.. try clicking on the picture to see it clearer.. have to learn how to do this upload picture thing...

This is the joint I was hoping to use.. with the interlock, and a few staples to hold it in place, I can't see the glue joint failing..


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## Denis Allan (May 13, 2012)

If your going to use biscuits. I'd use a spline which is what the lock miter joint is with two short built in splins


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

The problem with 45 degree miter joints is that the wood always expands and contracts across the joint on face sawn lumber (which is what you have in bee boxes by and large). The result is that the angle is NOT 45 degrees if the moisture content is higher or lower than what it was when you cut the joint. Less, and the inner part shrinks away from the other side, more and the outer part is forced apart as the inner part gets "larger". Quite a bit of leverage in there, and why you never see substantial things made with 45 degree joints. Wide picture frames subjected to these conditions fall apart, no matter what glue you use.

Stick with rabbet or box joints, save yourself some grief. Lock miters will work so long as the changes in the wood don't fracture the wood.

Peter


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## Denis Allan (May 13, 2012)

I'd agree that the wood will expand and contract along the face of the board, but through the thickness, I'd be surprised to see anything above 1/64 of an inch in soft wood even with a relatively high moisture content.. 

But.. having not build any supers with this joint, I'll take it at face value.. I'll make 1/2 of the boxes with the lock miter and 1/2 with a box joint. 
I'll build them all from the same stack of lumber I have owned or the last 13 years and will date them for comparison. Thanks you for the information..

Denis Allan


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## feltze (May 15, 2010)

Dennis, I've used a box joint similar to the box miter but ceased using it after about 50 medium boxes. I droped a box off the truck and it split at the corners making a mess. The glue held for the most part but the fiber in the joint failed miserably.

I made a jig for doing the standard box joint with a 3/4 cutter and a 1/2inch router. and can do 10 box sets quite quickly. I have also done half blide dovetails with great success but it's a little slower to do.


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## Denis Allan (May 13, 2012)

ThanksFeltze.

I'm fairly able at the word working, just have to get my head wrapped around the forces that will be acting on the box with seasonal changes and the future stresses on the box for handling and moving them around.. I do appreciate the input.. Being new to this, all the help I can get is appreciated.. having had a few failures in the past,, I sure don't want one with a pile of bees inside with me holding the stick.. might not be fun.. 

Denis Allan


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## reneal (Sep 6, 2006)

Maybe I'm just lazy, but I've found a butt joint works fine. I use a good glue & 3 or 4 2" screws on each joint. They seem very solid & I've not had one fail yet. Of course, it doesn't do a thing for keeping end grain from the weather.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

reneal said:


> Maybe I'm just lazy, but I've found a butt joint works fine. I use a good glue & 3 or 4 2" screws on each joint. They seem very solid & I've not had one fail yet. Of course, it doesn't do a thing for keeping end grain from the weather.


My problem with butt joints is needing a clamping jig to hold the thing square while gluing and screwing.


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## Denis Allan (May 13, 2012)

I think that's why air nailers became so popular so quickly.. hold nail and go.. 
The issue with screws is the end grain, and the reaction of the screw in the wood over time.. 
This was why I wanted to look at the lock miter joint.. no end grain and minimal fasteners to hold till the glue set up. The glue, if done properly is stronger then the fasteners until the wood breaks..


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Denis Allan said:


> ThanksFeltze.
> 
> I'm fairly able at the word working.
> 
> Denis Allan


That is a talent of many around here.


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## Denis Allan (May 13, 2012)

I can appreciate that bluegrass.. the next line in the comment was that I have to get my head wrapped around the forces that act on the corner of the hives,, not that I was able or not.. but thank you for pointing that out.. 

Friendly place around here isn't it.........


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Denis Allan said:


> Friendly place around here isn't it.........


Denis, you may be misinterpreting _Bluegrass's _comment. Note that the word you used was "*word*" instead of the "*wood*" that you probably intended to use. 


Denis Allan said:


> I'm fairly able at the *word *working,


I suspect that _Bluegrass _was making a comment about some Beesource members that do more _talking _than _woodworking. _:lookout:I did not interpret _Bluegrass's _comment as necessarily pertaining to you.

It is difficult to see facial expressions and tone of voice on Beesource. That's why smileys were invented! :gh:

.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

There are a few grouches and dingbats, but this is really a good discussion board. 

I'll let you in on a dirty little secret -- ANY wood glue is stronger than the wood, including hide glue (gelatin) if it stays dry. However, wood is not static, it changes size and shape with rather amazing power as the water content changes, and even if the glue is strong enough, the wood isn't and will simply fracture off the glue. 

This is why plywood is a poor exterior material unless well protected from water by paint or siding. Soak it in water from a rainstorm and then bake it in the sun and the wood, which is highly stressed in the first place from being peeled off a log and flattened, will simply rip apart at the glue, leaving you with separate plies no longer attached to each other. Doesn't matter what the glue is, the wood fails.

Box joints don't need glue, although it keeps water out and thus extends the life somewhat. No other joint will last as long without glue, and some are simply not reliable if not glued.

Whatever you use, make sure it will handle normal, or perhaps somewhat more than normal, stresses in beekeeping. Having a box full of cranky bees go "crunch" and come apart, smashing a pile of bees isn't going to be fun.

Peter


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## Denis Allan (May 13, 2012)

If I miss understood the comment, I do apologise for that. .and Yes. I now see word vs. .wood. I'd say I'm better with wood then words.. 
Sorry Bluegrass for the bit.. 

Denis


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

IMO, anything more than a lap joint with glue and staples is overkill. Great if you wanna, but again....... overkill for bee boxes.....


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

I am not clear on how to make a box with a lap joint. :scratch:


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Check this out!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Frame-Pr...Body-Unassembled-Honey-Bee-Hive-/221171373372

I found several mitered joint hives for sale on the wweb.


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## Spaghettify (Mar 24, 2013)

How are the lock miter joints going? Mine are going into their 3rd season and seem to be holding up well however the end-grain is hell on the bit. I'm using yellow pine and titebond 3.


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