# Canadian effects of exchange rates



## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

For the NZ packages, it's a mistake to look at the exchange reference the us dollar, you need to look at reference the NZ dollar, so look at this graph of the last year

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=CADNZD=X&t=1y&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=

what you will see is, little change since this time last year, if anything, canuck buck is slightly stronger than it was last year around the time packages start to come over.

ofc, if you are looking at queens from the US, then the weakness relative the american dollar will come into play.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Getting kicked in the pants on a large bee pollen order. Queens well that sucks big time. Prices net up a dollar from last year plus 30% on the exchange. Can more than make it up when you sell honey in the USA. Hard to pass currency fluctuations along to the farmer. Canola contracts are set and in Canadian dollars. So at the end of the day hopefully you are not purchasing too much in the US and are selling plenty in the US. Good luck to all. Sitting at 3.5% winter loss so far. Been through 35% of the outfit.

Jean-Marc


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Heard the other day the Mexicans are now using drones to fly drugs north across the southern US border. How far is to fly packages in from Maine? 
Some of those 10 k drones can carry 4 kilos at 60 kph for 25 minutes.
?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Honey-4-All said:


> Heard the other day the Mexicans are now using drones to fly drugs north across the southern US border. How far is to fly packages in from Maine?
> Some of those 10 k drones can carry 4 kilos at 60 kph for 25 minutes.
> ?


Doesn't that sound like a 5 gallon bucket great idea.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

grozzie2 said:


> For the NZ packages, it's a mistake to look at the exchange reference the us dollar, you need to look at reference the NZ dollar, so look at this graph of the last year
> 
> https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=CADNZD=X&t=1y&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=
> 
> ...


 I was at Beemaid in Spruce Grove this AM and price for a package is $197. Must be something else going on????


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Honey-4-All said:


> Heard the other day the Mexicans are now using drones to fly drugs north across the southern US border.


Circumventing legal routes usually makes things more expensive, not less expensive, and doesn't change the exchange rate hit.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

mgolden said:


> I was at Beemaid in Spruce Grove this AM and price for a package is $197. Must be something else going on????


Was that the price for a single package or their best price for a volume purchase? Demand does funny things to prices is what else is going on.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

grozzie2 said:


> Circumventing legal routes usually makes things more expensive, not less expensive, and doesn't change the exchange rate hit.


True so true... Although it can be debated if the legal method is bordering on extortion at that rate. Someone must be paying off someone!! 

If I was paying that much I''d be yanking on the chain of my MP like no ones business. There is NO reason you should pay that insane of a price when packages can be had across the border for half the rate. Why are folks not screaming and hollering ?

If "legal and certified" queens can fly north why can't the rest of the colony? 

And to think I was starting to believe that the folks up north were getting a little more wise in their governance than the Yanks, I'm going to have to reconsider.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

How much is a package of 1Kg NZ or 3 Lb Australian bees in the USA ?


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

We can't get Aussie bees or NZ packages. USA packages start at around $70 for a 3# package


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Ben Little said:


> How much is a package of 1Kg NZ or 3 Lb Australian bees in the USA ?



Are those the only two countries you can get packages from?

If they opened the border wouldn't many canadians winter there hive here or at least try to sell them off in the fall?


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Oh I thought you could buy them in the US. Yeah I wish package bees were that cheap here, but we have to take what we can get and do our best with them.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Mbeck said:


> Are those the only two countries you can get packages from?
> 
> If they opened the border wouldn't many canadians winter there hive here or at least try to sell them off in the fall?


yes those are the only 2 that I am aware of. I would still keep my bees, I think it is a matter of bees on comb VS package bees. as far a the different pests and diseases, that is a different thread all on it's own LOL


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Not available. Don't really need them from the supply / demand side of things..

You can give any shiny new bee glove the opportunity to get its grubby claws on a kick butt 3 pounder in California for mid 70's plus cage charge. That price would be in lots sending the supplier a check big enough to buy a small car.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Honey-4-All said:


> If I was paying that much I''d be yanking on the chain of my MP like no ones business. There is NO reason you should pay that insane of a price when packages can be had across the border for half the rate. Why are folks not screaming and hollering ?
> 
> If "legal and certified" queens can fly north why can't the rest of the colony?


Some are hollering, but, in a lot of cases, they aren't presenting the real math on the equation either. First off, that 'legal and certified' queen, is certified to be free of SHB when it comes across the border. To get to that stage, requires inspections at the premises etc. Then it's easy to check a queen and a few attendants going into a cage. Not sure if it's possible for any package producers down south to ensure that no SHB come along for the ride when they shake a few thousand bees into a box.

Then do the rest of the math. That 80 dollar package is going to incur some expense in the form of vetrinary paperwork etc before it comes across the border. This applies to any type of livestock, crossing just about any border, in any direction, so it'll now be a hundred dollar package once that's all dealt with, and that's 100 us dollars, which translates today, into $125 in canadian dollars. So for $125 you have it sitting at the border crossing, ready to ship on, and there's going to be some cost to get it shipped on to destination, and the middleman doing all the work of brokering and shipping, is going to take a slice along the way too. It's unrealistic to think that one is going to get those packages at half the price currently paid, by the time they reach smalltown Canada somewhere from just about any point of origin in the USA. By todays costs, it's more like $150 to reach the end consumer of those packages. And when you compare that supply chain, to the ones currently in use, the price delta is just about the difference between ground shipping from the us, and air shipping from NZ. And these numbers make no allowance for mortality in shipping, of which there will always be some. If one picks up a thousand packages at the producer location, by the time they arrive in smalltown northern Canada, there isn't going to be a thousand of them one can sell, there is bound to be some slippage along the way to mortality during transport.

After factoring all that in, and some margin for mortality in shipping, when one does a realistic evaluation of the numbers, the discrepancies are not nearly as large as folks seem to imply. I'm sure there is a small savings to be had, but, it's NOT the 'half price' many folks like to banter around, because when they do that, they are comparing apples to oranges. They are comparing the cost of bulk packages FOB producer, against that of small quantities, delivered to small town Canada, and that's NOT a valid comparison.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Single package price is the $197.

Think single package price was $168 a year ago.

Price for my NUCs just went up.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I would think 175.00 for a 4 frame nuc is a reasonable price considering package bees and queens. 
But in any case there is some things that are effected by the exchange rate and I was just trying to see what it is doing to other beekeepers in Canada. 

mgolden > I paid 169.00 for a NZ 1kg Tube last year buying 100 of them and I don't think it really gets any cheaper buying more, the freight is the factor in spreading out the cost of the packages evenly I believe.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Grozzie.......... Good comments.

One thing on those SHB free queens from my area. Although they are not an atrocious problem as of yet they are here no matter what the paperwork on your end might say. There is a way to filter them out of Bulk bees but I always figure if they are in the hives they will get transferred eventually. Look for some to sneak through sooner or latter. 


As per cross border small town pricing. Since any icicle clutching Athabascan in Fairbanks ( alaska ) can get 4's delivered for 140 bucks it seems like any ****** out of California would be more than willing to get them to the Peace river Valley for the same price if the border was open.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Ben Little said:


> I would think 175.00 for a 4 frame nuc is a reasonable price considering package bees and queens.
> But in any case there is some things that are effected by the exchange rate and I was just trying to see what it is doing to other beekeepers in Canada.


I will be putting together 5 frame NUCs with a purchased queen. A NUC is going to have drawn comb, more than 2 kg of bees, and all stages of brood. Frames, foundation and NUC box are extra(depends on what purchaser wants to supply. Only take unused replacement frames and foundation). IMHO, a NUC is going to build up faster than a package and is going to produce more honey. NUCs are worth more than $197.

Have been getting lots of interest and sales with a price of $190.

What are others opinion on what the price of a NUC should be?


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Honey-4-All said:


> As per cross border small town pricing. Since any icicle clutching Athabascan in Fairbanks ( alaska ) can get 4's delivered for 140 bucks it seems like any ****** out of California would be more than willing to get them to the Peace river Valley for the same price if the border was open.


Ok, take your 140, but that's in $US. Convert to canadian, at an 80 cent exchange rate, it becomes $175.

Suddenly it doesn't look so much like a 'closed border' issue at all. The difference between 175 and 197 is air fare from NZ. And, if you allowed all the Canadian demand for packages to hit the California market, probably see that 175 sneak up to 195 too.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

$31 for Cali queens... Yikes

But

my cattle cheques, canola cheques and wheat cheques are making up for that


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

The closed canadian boarder works very well for those who can keep their bees alive over winter. If the boarder were to open, anyone could be a successful beekeeper. I would need to compete for forrage area, therefore likely making less honey. I would have increased risk of brood diseases, and the market price for my bees would decrease. So needless to say I wont be purchasing any 200$ packages, or contacting my MP.
Luke


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

OK. 3# packages, orders of 100 in CA are $75. A modest set up will haul 1,000 - 1,500 cages. A delivery cost of $10 each is $15,000. That kinda money will get you a long way into the prairie. Losses on delivery are very very low. I guess there is an inspection fee but truckload prices could be lower, so it's probably a wash. 

Middle man? Maybe on a small order.

So I think $85 USD converted at 1.25 exchange rate is $106.25 Canadian. Delivered to your door. 

Of course the price will go up or down depending on how easy or hard Y'all set up the entry process. Every extra hoop to jump through will cost some cash.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

grozzie2 said:


> Ok, take your 140, but that's in $US. Convert to canadian, at an 80 cent exchange rate, it becomes $175.
> 
> Suddenly it doesn't look so much like a 'closed border' issue at all. The difference between 175 and 197 is air fare from NZ. And, if you allowed all the Canadian demand for packages to hit the California market, probably see that 175 sneak up to 195 too.


That $140 US was for 4 lbs.......... not 1 kilo... That being the case equivalent should be 20- 30 US bucks less when removing the value of the extra workers.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

mgolden said:


> I was at Beemaid in Spruce Grove this AM and price for a package is $197. Must be something else going on????


I heard they're selling 3lb packages of Australian bees at Peavey Mart this year for $204.00. I'm getting my packages this year from another supplier, 2.2lbs (1Kg.) $179 for New Zealand bees which is an increase of only $8.00 over last year. I would try the Australians from Peavey Mart, but they're only selling them at 4 stores the nearest of which is at least 4 hours away.
Colino


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

ryan said:


> OK. 3# packages, orders of 100 in CA are $75. A modest set up will haul 1,000 - 1,500 cages. A delivery cost of $10 each is $15,000. That kinda money will get you a long way into the prairie. Losses on delivery are very very low. I guess there is an inspection fee but truckload prices could be lower, so it's probably a wash.
> 
> Middle man? Maybe on a small order.
> 
> ...


Only one problem. The border is closed for bee imports.


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

Understood. I saw a post estimating what US bees might cost. I thought it seemed high, so I offered what I estimated US bees might cost if the border opened. Any price change do to increased demand is not in the estimate.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Ryan, in theory your price makes sense but there always seems to be something or someone that manages to get the price raised up in Canada.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

sharpdog said:


> The closed canadian boarder works very well for those who can keep their bees alive over winter. If the boarder were to open, anyone could be a successful beekeeper. I would need to compete for forrage area, therefore likely making less honey. I would have increased risk of brood diseases, and the market price for my bees would decrease. So needless to say I wont be purchasing any 200$ packages, or contacting my MP.
> Luke


Yup, its a very divisive issue. It's hard loosing a lively hood to outside circumstances with available stock close by...
But it also would change the dynamics of our game. And the underlying fear is how far are these determined beekeepers wanting to push. We all know what their intention is... 

So it's sit here and struggle and make a decent living, or turn this industry into an investment game, hit the road and claim the countryside. 

I like it the way it is


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian said:


> Yup, its a very divisive issue. It's hard loosing a lively hood to outside circumstances with available stock close by...
> But it also would change the dynamics of our game. And the underlying fear is how far are these determined beekeepers wanting to push. We all know what their intention is...
> 
> So it's sit here and struggle and make a decent living, or turn this industry into an investment game, hit the road and claim the countryside.
> ...


Well said Ian. The prospect of where this logically leads to doesn't thrill me much.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Ian said:


> I like it the way it is



Get your point. Kind of like the days before the out of staters showed up for the almonds in the southern most state of the US left coast. . We used to make a honey crop off the oranges on a marginally consistent basis. No longer the case. Now its a pot shot because every clown east of the sierra's and North of Texas puts bees on them for the free "syrup hose" effect while they wait for the snow to clear back where they belong. Only a fool with a death wish for a bigger syrup bill would want to imagine another 100,000 parked on top of them...100,000 with that shiny Maple leaf engraved on the health certificate that is. Ouch. Point taken!


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

We all think about and long for the good old days. In Canada its called Package bee mentality,more than one generation raised in this era.Things and a industry changes but the thinking or logic of keepers remains in the old thoughts of the good old days.
These days have more risk than the past,( VARROA and the diseases )US packages would certainly avoid some risk,perhaps it is time to give up the old beliefs and move on to reality


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Just got a drop of fuel on the farm. The saving compared to last year is substantial. Thumbs up on this farm


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Quote for packages in our area..$206.00 each.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Janne in what kind of quantity?

Jean-Marc


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I have only purchased in 2013 and 2014. 
I am not experienced but even with my limited ability they grew on to provide honey, overwintered and made honey and splits in 2014. So far these hives are good this winter. I do think they have superceded.
They arrived with a mated and accepted Queen. Very few dead bees in the package...not enough to make note of.


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

What was the exchange rate vs. package price vs. honey price the last few years US imports were allowed? 

It is somewhat strange that a primary reason to prohibit imports is that US packages would make Canadian beekeeping TOO profitable. Before the ban I dont think anyone was cursing low priced quality packages. I'm not sure what would have changed since then. 

I think the internet causes small/unlikely problems to get amplified beyond what is reasonable. North Dakota has about as many bees as all of Canada. I doubt much honey was lost due to over crowding. Certainly ND loss of profits would pale to the profit loss caused by expensive packages. 

The option of $100 packages delivered to your door will fuel lots of debate. Good luck to all.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

ryan said:


> The option of $100 packages delivered to your door will fuel lots of debate. Good luck to all.


And therein lies the crux of part of the problem for some of the canucks reading this. Lots of folks will start to believe that $100 packages 'delivered to the door' is possible, just because they read it on the internet. But it's not even remotely realistic, not even close. I've been involved in dealing with international supply chains for decades, and there is a fairly simple rule of thumb to apply for low volume commodities (things sold by the each). Take the producer price, FOB producer premises, double that number, and you have a rough idea what the retail sticker price will be once the items have been thru transport, borders, and local distribution etc. Comparing quantity 100 or 1000 prices FOB producer premises against the quantity 1 prices at final retail distribution point, that's a straw man argument comparing apples to grapefruit.

To put this in more perspective, for q1 purchases, I just looked at the Mann Lake website. Pickup on May 2 in Hackensack MN, the price on the website is $119.95. That's a real listed price, not a pipe dream picked out of thin air, it's what a quantity 1 purchase at retail is available. Add exchange to that, comes out to $150 in canadian dollars. That similar purchase today, quoted earlier in this thread, is $197 for the NZ package picked up in Alberta. I notice also, the prices go down on the later dates, so the Alberta price quoted is likely for early April when the NZ packages are normally available. How much higher would the Mann Lake price be for pickup a month earlier than the listed date ? Are we starting to reach the point where the prices are right in line with each other ?

The huge price delta folks dream about, is just not a realistic delta, it's a pipe dream that comes about from apples to grapefruit type of comparisons.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

If you buy 1-9 it was actually $207 and if you bought over 9 it eas a just a few dollars less. The only reason I am purchasing this year is because I want to try managing off size hives of styles different from Langs...tbh, warre etc. If prices keep escalating I will either rob my own hives or stop playing around with various hive configurations

I am not saying the price is unrealistic when considering all along the way need to get their cut just saying it is reaching a point beyond my comfort zone...especially when one realizes they can simply fly away if they so choose.
I don't think the Cdn $ against the US$ is much of an issue here as these bees come from New Zealand.


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

Agreed. Small orders will cost you dearly no matter what side of the border you're on. Several thousand vs 1 is not comparable. Even 100 isn't getting all that close.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Grozzie, you nailed it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Yup, that about sums it up G.

This package bee movement is the second step towards a larger objective.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Ian said:


> Yup, that about sums it up G.
> 
> This package bee movement is the second step towards a larger objective.


I think we all know what the real objective is. I've spoken to more than one with 5000+ colonies who are just drooling over the possibility of getting those colonies into almond orchards.


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

Objectives or not, inbound packages won't trigger southbound combs. The US politics would have to approve that unlikely event, and then there would still be no way to get that comb back up across the Canadian boarder. 

Those events are worlds apart and not really related. They are not just fast easy steps.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Ya it's best that everyone just keep their bees on their own side of the border. We are doing fine by leaving things just the way they are.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Ryan is bang on. People always cloud the issue with fear mongering. It is kinda weird because many of the guys were around at the time are still there. I find it interesting that people do not inform themselves on the issues... the actual hurdles that need or would have to be in order to obtain A, B or C. Either way what I am saying is many people speak and make emotional pleas instead of factual things. It would be nice to talk about things that would have to happen. Bees have never moved on comb so even if you wanted that ,so many events would have to happen and they never have so it would be difficult to make it happen.

Jean-Marc


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

Not to sure about the Dakotas having as many bees as all of Canada .If so they have a lot of lazy bees. North Dakota produce about 34, 000,000 lbs. of honey Alberta alone produces over 40,000,000 lbs. .


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Apples and oranges. Apparently close to 500 000 beehives make it to North Dakota. Alberta has 275 000 or so. Alberta has a better average for whatever reason, likely being just better conditions and forage for the bees. I can assure you that the bees are not lazy.

Jean-Marc


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

dgl1948 said:


> Not to sure about the Dakotas having as many bees as all of Canada .If so they have a lot of lazy bees. North Dakota produce about 34, 000,000 lbs. of honey Alberta alone produces over 40,000,000 lbs. .


With 3.61127441282044 X the area of North Dakota within Alberta what kind of a comparison is this? 

Looks like either Alberta beekeepers suck at what they do ( not my inclination to think so) or the productive ground in ND out does AB anyday. Which one is it.... ?????????????


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Looks to me that ND is overloaded with bees.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

This thread really has gone wonky.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

But Equalizing pest pressures is the first step, then what would be the reason to keeping comb boarder movement from happening? They would argue the same as is being argued now.

Canadian and American beekeepers would naturally fall into a share crop arrangement.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Well back on topic. So I got scared by the exchange rate. Thought I would be smart and drove down to Bee Maid this long weekend to haul back 9 lifts of Pierco frames. I figured I would get them before the exchange rate raises the prices. Turns out. Input costs are down as plastic is hand in hand with oil. Trucking costs are down as well for the same reason. Increased competition between Acorn and Pierco as well. So the exchange rate is negligable. Now I have a garage full of frames that I won't need for 4-5 months. 
Sometimes I just overthink it, or underthink it.


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