# Breaking a swarm in mid flight



## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Yesterday morning, I went to make a split in a colony that was loaded with bees. As I got out of the car and was lighting the smoker and putting on hat, veil, and gloves, the flight began. The air was filled with bees all around me and I heard the steady buzz of an emerging swarm. 

At first I was at a loss as to what to do, then I remembered the time when I was about 6 years old and my Uncle landed a swarm on a fence post that was just emerging. He had my mother run and get a pan/pot with a large metal spoon, and then my Uncle began a steady rapid beat on the pot. The air was full of bees and then they began to form on a fence post, where they eventually settled and he was able to box the swarm.

Remembering this event from my childhood, I pulled out the metal container holding my pine needles used in my smoker, emptied the contents and then began the steady beating on the metal ends with my hive tool. By now the air was thick with bees. At first the bees began to settle into a blooming redbud tree a few feet to the south and east of the colony. I continued beating and the bees left the redbud and after about 10 minutes of beating the air cleared. When I walked around to the front of the the colony the bees had settled back on the front of their own colony, completely covering the entrance. I estimate about 4-5 pounds of bees.

I immediately went into the colony, and destroyed about 18-20 queen cells. I pulled out about 5-6 frames of sealed brood, starting another colony. I then smoked the bees hanging on the front, back into the colony, and then moved the colony about a 1/4 to 1/2 mile away to another bee yard replacing the old colony with a new queenless colony; thereby allowing the workers to come back to the now queenless colony.

Just thought I would share the experience.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


----------



## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

? Why distroy the Qcells? Could you not have simply moved one of those frames to new hives split from the mother hive? The Qcells would have shortened the time the new hive was without a queen.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

jrbbees is right. If I had bees in swarming mode, I would not destroy queen cells. If the swarm does leave, you may not have eggs for the parent hive to make a queen. At any rate, the queen cells would buy you time.

If I was going to move another queenless hive to the original location, I would have put those queen cells in it. The queenless hive would then have a chance of making themselves a queen.

If you pulled 5-6 frames of sealed brood and started a new colony you will need to queen it. They willl not make a queen from sealed brood. Of course if the swarm went back in, you may have already moved the queen with the 5-6 frames of brood where you started the new hive.

You will need to monitor these three hives very closely until you get them queenright.

cchoganjr


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

DRUR Prepare to be ridiculed by those who have never brought a swarm out of mid air by beating on metal. There is another thread on beesourse, about a year or so ago, that this was discussed. 

cchoganjr


----------



## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

jrbbees said:


> ? Why distroy the Qcells? Could you not have simply moved one of those frames to new hives split from the mother hive? The Qcells would have shortened the time the new hive was without a queen.


These bees were nasty, nasty, nasty; and were located at a neighbors place. Even though the colony was over 100 yards away from their house. After I worked the bees, the neighbors would get head butted for several days. Thankfully, the neighbors have only been stung once and they love bees. I was going to deal with the problem by requeening with cordovan/Italian and this is why I was making the split, to move the part with the queen to a new location [which I have now done] and requeen the queenless part of the split at the old location with a gentler queen. 

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


----------



## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> jrbbees is right. If I had bees in swarming mode, I would not destroy queen cells.


See my reply to jrbbees. I didn't want to continue with this nasty bloodline. I still have the queen and the original colony; but I will shortly be dealing with it in an appropriate manner.



Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> You will need to monitor these three hives very closely until you get them queenright.


I must have confused you with my original post. I only have 2 colonies, not 3. I smoked the swarm back into the original colony after I removed the 5 frames of sealed brood. This was during mid morning, and you can imagine I had bees all over the place in the air. After I made the divide, and destroyed the queen cells, I moved the colony with the queen to the newer, more remote, loccation. Many of the workers went back to the old location, but without a queen they won't be swarming. They will either get a new cordovan/Italian, within 7-10 days, or if there is a delay, I will drop a frame of eggs from a gentler, more productive colony for them to make their own.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


----------



## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> There is another thread on beesourse, about a year or so ago, that this was discussed. cchoganjr


Do you remember the thread? If so could you reference it so that I might read it. 



Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> DRUR Prepare to be ridiculed by those who have never brought a swarm out of mid air by beating on metal.


:lookout: Cleo, I have been keeping bees to long and doing things outside the box way to long to be offended by the ridicule of others. All my colonies are small cell treatment free [other than screened bottom boards and that is fixing to change]. I went into the winter with 14 colonies, and came through the winter [if you could call it that] with 14, though 1 was queenless but still had a good bee population when I checked them end of January. They also now have a queen, made from a frame of eggs from my gentlest, most productive colony. I have checkerboarded/and reversed brood boxes on all colonies the end of January/early February, but still had another fixing to swarm yesterday which I also split and killed the queen cells [yes all of them]. I will be selecting their progeny from some of the best that I have.

So, now I am up to 16, colonies and about to run out of equipment, though I have more ordered. By the end of today, it will be 17, as I will be creating another [using the last of my equipment] to stay ahead of the curve. Hopefully, Monday I will have a lot of work to do with the arrival of new bee equipment, Lord Willing, that is.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

DRUR... No I don't remember the title of the thread, or what was being discussed, but, I remember some writing to the effect that, """Some people still believe in old wives tales, that you can land a swarm by beating on metal.""" I didn't join in the conversation, because I have done it 3 times in 30 years. Maybe, perhaps, they were just landing all around me anyway, but, I am a believer. Someone on here may remember the thread. Hopefully so, some of the comments were amusing. I just laughed and went on. 

For those who have never seen it, it is a sight to see thousands of bees land in a fence row, 30 ft by 5 ft. where I was standing, beating on a metal ammunition can with a hive tool, and then on signal, just like in football, the bees fly and form a ball around the queen. On the other two occasions, I let the bees begin to light on me, then, moved to the side and they formed their ball on the tractor where I was sitting, and on the other a small cedar. Again, perhaps, maybe, they were just going to land there anyway.

Yes I was confused. I thought you said you split the hive and moved the split, then moved the original to a new yard, and replaced the original with a queenless hive to give the returning workers a place to go. I thought you were talking about three colonies. Two of which would be queenless.

Do you find that a queen from a queen cell after a swarm, or a split is nasty, just because the original colony/queen was nasty. I do not normally find this. I'm not sure that it is genetics, or just the traits of an individual queen. Possibly both, but, when I have a nasty hive, and I had one last year that was horrible, horrible, I simply split the hive three ways, putting a frame of uncapped brood in two of them, and let them make themselves a new queen. Until the new queen emerges, the splits were nasty, but heavy feeding and the new queens emerging, all three. (including the original "hot queen" settled down and became nice gentle hives. I have found that sometimes you can keep the old queen by simply splitting the hive, two or three ways, and making her start all over. This will sometimes cool a queen down.

I will search and see if I can find the thread where landing bees was discussed. Maybe someone will remember.

Interested in your comment about screened bottom boards, and ""That is fixing to change"" Would you elaborate. Do I take it that you are not a big fan of screened bottom boards.?

Thanks.

cchoganjr


----------



## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Do you find that a queen from a queen cell after a swarm, or a split is nasty, just because the original colony/queen was nasty. I do not normally find this. I'm not sure that it is genetics, or just the traits of an individual queen. Possibly both, but, when I have a nasty hive, and I had one last year that was horrible, horrible, I simply split the hive three ways, putting a frame of uncapped brood in two of them, and let them make themselves a new queen. Until the new queen emerges, the splits were nasty, but heavy feeding and the new queens emerging, all three. (including the original "hot queen" settled down and became nice gentle hives. I have found that sometimes you can keep the old queen by simply splitting the hive, two or three ways, and making her start all over. This will sometimes cool a queen down.


Actually, I had already decided to requeen this colony and had hopes that maybe the replacement would be shipped early part of next week. So at the time that I went out to the bee yard I just continued doing what I was already going to do, but trust me it was hard for me to go in and destroy some of these perfect, large prime queen cells.



Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Interested in your comment about screened bottom boards, and ""That is fixing to change"" Would you elaborate. Do I take it that you are not a big fan of screened bottom boards.?


I had 3 solid bottoms and 11 screened bottoms. The solid bottoms seemed to start building up quicker, had larger populations, fully utilized lower brood boxes [which none of the screened bottoms have done]. I would consider all of my solid bottoms better than any of the screened bottoms, and in my mind, statistically speaking, it means they do better with solid bottom boards. My screened bottoms are open [which could make a difference from others] so that any mites or small hive beetles will be taken care of by the fire ants, which we have an abundance of here.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I share most of your thoughts on screened bottom boards. "IF" you have a mite problem, the screened bottoms no doubt help. But there are many other factors to consider.

I guess I am just too old to change, (heck, maybe I am just too old to be selling bees), but I have never seen a tree, old house, water tank, flower pot, birdhouse, etc with a screened bottom board, and bees have existed for thousands of years without them. I don't know many migratory keepers who use them. And, yes, I know all about bees clustering and keeping the brood nest warm in winter , but, I still contend that it is more difficult for a colony to keep a hive warm in winter with a screened bottom board. At honey production time, I contend it is more difficult to control humidity in the hive with a screened bottom than it is a solid board. Reducing moisture content in nectar is more difficult if the bottom is open. I also contend that normal ventilation is easier for the bees with a solid bottom, as they can direct the flow of air as they wish. 

Bottom line, if others like them O.K. But, I don't use them.

Sometimes I wonder if new inventions are not more about selling new equipment to beekeepers, than anything else. For instance, the "kick" to go to 8 frame, screened bottom boards, or all medium supers, is more about selling equipment that will not fit the normal 10 frame hive. No more often than you pick up the boxes, especially small colony beekeepers, can you really tell the difference in 8 frames and 9 frames (or 10 frames) in your hive. Recently there was a discussion that pine is used in making boxes because it is lighter than poplar, and other woods. O.K. so a poplar box weighs 9 ounces more than pine. Can you tell the difference in 9 ounces in 90 lbs. I can't. Handle them all day, does it make a difference, I don't think so. But, if you go with these new configurations, you will not be able to use old equipment, thus, necessitating the purchase of new equipment. And 10 years from now they will want to change again. Probably reverting back to the normal 10 frame Langstroth Hive, with a solid bottom that has been the industry standard for years. 

cchoganjr


----------



## BeeTax (Dec 27, 2011)

I use screened bottom boards, but cut a grove in both sides (a couple of inches below the screen) and slide a piece of luan or 1/4 plywood into it with a tray of oil and some SHB bait on the luan. It is closed off from all sides so the bees can't get into it and I doubt it adds anything to the ventilation. But . . . it has been a really big help with the SHB and it allows me to monitor the mite drop.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Yes, they will help control mites and using oil pans will certainly help with SHB. I have been very fortunate, Small Hive Beetles have not been a problem since 2003. I moved all my hives out of shady areas and into direct sunlight, eliminated inner covers, and now see very, very, few beetles each year. Mites have not been a problem since 2001, No treatment for either has been required.

cchoganjr


----------



## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Do you find that a queen from a queen cell after a swarm, or a split is nasty, just because the original colony/queen was nasty. I'm not sure that it is genetics, or just the traits of an individual queen. Possibly both,


Cleo, I couldn't state with any authority. I always assumed that from a genetic standpoint that overly defensive behavior from a queen's colony could be transferred to her progeny in the same way we select for high nectar production, survivability, etc.; although depending on the drone she was bred to, that could change. 

A greater condern I have with overly defensive behavior would be the production of her drones which would have a carbon copy of her genetics without influence from another drone. And I certainly would be concerned about her drones breeding the defensive trait into my apiary. Although, that alone does not get her killed. If they aren't good comb builders, honey producers, and/or she has a propensity to swarm [which this one did], then all these are taken into my consideration. This particular colony was going to be moved [with a split being left behind for more gentle genetics] because of the location and the defensiveness related thereto. My decision to kill will be made [since she has now been moved] upon a more thoughful consideration as she is a survivor without treatments and able to rapidly increase bee population. But what good is a rapid increase in bee population if it is because of their determination to swarm?

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


----------



## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> No more often than you pick up the boxes, especially small colony beekeepers, can you really tell the difference in 8 frames and 9 frames (or 10 frames) in your hive. Recently there was a discussion that pine is used in making boxes because it is lighter than poplar, and other woods. O.K. so a poplar box weighs 9 ounces more than pine. Can you tell the difference in 9 ounces in 90 lbs. I can't. Handle them all day, does it make a difference, I don't think so. But, if you go with these new configurations, you will not be able to use old equipment, thus, necessitating the purchase of new equipment. And 10 years from now they will want to change again. Probably reverting back to the normal 10 frame Langstroth Hive, with a solid bottom that has been the industry standard for years.


In my brood chamber, after all the frames are fully drawn, I usually use a 9 frame spacing. I don't do this on boxes that are not fully drawn to prevent a bunch of messed up drawn comb, which means that generally all my honey supers [at least the first go round] are all 10 frames. However, that being said, on occasion where I have reused a honey supers for a second round of honey, I usually space 9 frames and I can't tell there is any difference in the weight. They just seem to draw the cells deeper and put a little more honey in each cell. I am not sure how this observation would relate to a brood chamber. 

That being said, I will say that I am on all mediums instead of deeps. This is primarily so that in rotating out old comb from the brood chamber, I can use my drawn honey frames. I personally don't care about lifting 60# medium super full of honey all day long, and certainly wouldn't cherish lifting the 90# deep full of honey, which I foolishsly did during my youth, all to the demise of my back.

Kindest Regard
Danny Unger


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is a link to a previous thread on 'drumming" bees:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?246913-bee-drumming&highlight=drumming

Also, some people use the word "tanging" for a similar action. You can search on that also.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

DRUR...I agree... I normally give a new queen a chance before replacing. Then if they are still mean, out she goes. But, more often than not, a new queen, even one from her own eggs, will calm them down. Lots of factors go into making a colonly mean. I think most often it has to do with honey stores. If they have plenty, not so mean. Early Spring low stores, can be aggressive. Fall, they are protecting winter stores, can be aggressive. But, as you said, some genetics are just meaner than others.

Radar Sidetrack... That is a good thread but it isn't the one that I was referencing. I haven't found it either.

cchoganjr


----------



## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

BeeTax said:


> I use screened bottom boards, but cut a grove in both sides (a couple of inches below the screen) and slide a piece of luan or 1/4 plywood into it with a tray of oil and some SHB bait on the luan. It is closed off from all sides so the bees can't get into it and I doubt it adds anything to the ventilation. But . . . it has been a really big help with the SHB and it allows me to monitor the mite drop.


I bought the Cadillac of SBB, the Country Rubes sbb last year, and it was a good investment. The bees I got locally from a bee person were loaded with mites. I would not use the SBB without a mite drop board though, from all I've read. I will be building my own SBB this year with slide in tray for oil/mite counts, hopefully before my bees get here in April. 

Gypsi


----------



## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Tanging bees videos on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38JkcUG1qsY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUIjiZWWDn0

I will say this, I had a lot more bees in the air. My swarm would have been the primary swarm from this colony. My guess is that when the swarm reformed on the front face of the colony just below the entrance [This colony had a top entrance] there was 4-5 pounds of bees, and the whole front [3 mediums] was covered probably 3-5 inches thick. I then finished lighting my smoker and poored the smoke to them and they moved back inside the boxes. I went into the coloney, now packed with bees, and separated the sealed brood frames that only had advanced stages of grubs or sealed brood [destroying the queen cells] and made a split, by adding a couple of frames of brood and pollen to the medium box with bottom. I then moved the old box off the stand and replaced it with the new split and went through the rest of the colony now set off to the side. Any frame that had no eggs or young grubs I shook off and placed in a second box on top of the new split, alternating an undrawn plastic frame every other frame. By the time I was finished the air was black with flying, not so happy bees. By now there was a thick cover of bees on both colonies. I had called my son, who came over in a small 4 wheeled vehicle called a mule, and we drove 1/4 to 1/2 mile to the new location with the old colony. Both seem to be doing fine now, and my cordovan/italian queen is due to be shipped Monday and I should then receive it on Wednesday.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


----------



## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Just my two cents on SBB's, we've been closing the bottoms by sliding the plastic observation board below the screen around December and take them out again in Feb/March after the queen starts laying. It does keep the queen in the lower box and they do brood up faster. 
Have a great day,
Janet


----------



## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

I guess its hard to break the swarm desire, once they have it in their mind. The queen swarmed sometime between Friday and this afternoon. I still hadn't decided if I should destroy the queen or not. Friday I destroyed 3-4 new queen cells. I checked today and apparently the queen swarmed and left no queen cells [I destroyed some more on Friday's check]. Still some sealed brood left and a couple of pounds of bees left, but the queen and a small bunch of bees swarmed. Couldn't have been more then a couple of pounds she took because the split had most of the bees and I had transferred the sealed brood when I originally broke the swarm; although I did leave those frames with eggs and young larva. Any way I don't have to decide to kill her.

The split now has a new queen and I will check for eggs and sealed brood next weekend.

I reckon Mel is right, should of just killed the queen to begin with. Brought them through the winter to add to the feral population.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


----------

