# Honey House



## Ben Little

Hello all, I want to build a Honey House that will facilitate 500 Hives Max . Anyone have any good ideas on a floor plan and size of a building without getting too many questions thrown at me. Like type of extraction equipment etc ..

PM me if you actually have experience with planning how to build one please.

Thanks
Ben


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## Jon B

I run a 500 hive operation and have a few ideas for your honey house. Our facility has five rooms.
*Extracting room* - this room has two extractors, the uncapping knife, capping dryer, sump, water heater and sink.
*Hot room* - this room is heated by a water heater that circulates water through pipes in the floor. This room is where I move the honey supers that need to be extracted. 
*Comb room* - This is where I store all my supers after they have been extracted. It is large enough to hold about 1500 medium supers.
*Honey tank room* - This is where I drain and package my honey.
*Storage room* - this is where I store misc stuff. Honey containers, tools, equipment to be repaired.
On the side of my honey house is a garage where I park my truck.

In the winter I clean out my hot room and turn it into my workshop to build new equipment and repair old equipment.


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## Ben Little

Do you have any photos of your building ? and what is the building size ? I am trying to do it right the first time and I guess going a little bigger than I need would be good as well.

Thanks for the input !

Ben


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## Double_Bee

If you go on cook and beals website they have floor plans for extracting rooms that should give you a general idea, otherwise Jon Bs idea sounds good. I'm not sure how necessary the water heater is in the hot room, we run 1500 hives and usually the summer heat keeps it around 100 degrees though we like to run a space heater on there over night to keep it toasty.


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## sqkcrk

I think that a number of the equipment suppliers have layouts for different sizes of beekeeping outfits. Maxant did at one time. Maybe you should contact them.


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## Brian Suchan

Floor heat in the hot room is a must, ditto on what jon said i leave ours all winter. U can use that hot room for winter work and its relativly cheap to heat.


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## LT

Do you store the supers wet? Is the super storage room conditioned? Thanks


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## jim lyon

Ben: I would design the dimensions of my extracting room to accommodate a system like this should you choose to upgrade in the future. 
http://www.cowenmfg.com/pages.asp?pageid=97404
the unit is 19' long and would require at least another 8 to 10' on each end to fit comfortably. It is very important to spend some time strategically placing floor drains as well taking equipment placing and traffic flow into account. I would agree that a room with a heated floor directly adjacent to your extracting room would be a requirement as well. Make sure all doorways are wide and tall enough to accommodate whatever type of forklift you may choose to use in the future.


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## Ian

Im in the process of building myself. Here are just a few ideas that I have put into my facility.

Windows, lots of natural light
I dont like walls, so I designed a large extraction room, and a large hot room which doubles as a wintering shed. 
12 foot ceiling
tin walls and ceiling inside and out
floor wash drains or gutter. I chose a U drain gutter system because of its simplicity, hidden features and self cleaning option
I have water service in the building, hot and cold. 
Fully serviced waste water and sewer system. 

I built in an office/employee lunch room that will be finished with drywall. It allows a place for workers or visitors to gather and do business without having to be forced to enter the actual processing facility. Im finishing this area with drywall to add a touch of professionalism to the facility. My operation will be centralized in this area.

I have a loading pad on the outside of my honey house to load and unload my truck, with my lift truck, which has direct access to my honey house. This way I can have a clean pad and not track in dirt from outside as I load and unload my boxes.

I do not store any of my boxes in my buildings but rather store all my boxes in dry van semi trailers. I have a loading dock next to the honey house for convenient access. Semi trailers are cheap storage solutions and they are relocatable. I will store my boxes away from my facility to help minimize the risk of fire.


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## beemandan

At the end of the day...once you've decided on the minimum number of rooms and their minimum dimensions....double both.
I have a one room 14x20 honey house. I extract from about 200 hives. Once the honey is extracted and bottled I have to store it elsewhere. I could handle another 100 hives if needed.
Do you have 500 hives today? Do you plan to store the bottled or barrelled honey for an extended period of time in this same house? I know you didn't want a load of questions but....way too many variables to throw out blanket solutions....in my opinion.


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## mgolden

Good for lots of concepts but may need some updates for 2013.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...7YDwBg&usg=AFQjCNGWUWHHow-Ht8LOJ2llsvvFhTWo8g


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## Ben Little

Thanks for all the ideas , it is hard choice to make. I'm just having a hard time trying to get the project started . L O L
I don't know how much the project will cost , I guess the main thing would be getting a price on the construction of the overall build once I decide how big to make it for now , with the capabilities of making it larger as time goes on.

I need to think a lot on what I need , rather than what I want. So if you smell smoke , that's just me thinking : )

Ben


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## jim lyon

Ian said:


> Im in the process of building myself. Here are just a few ideas that I have put into my facility.
> 
> Windows, lots of natural light


I like natural light as well but, personally, I wouldn't overdo the windows. If you dont clean them regularly they can get unsightly in a hurry. The windows in our extracting room get cleaned daily during extracting season and they still never seem to look clean.


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## Roland

Two story, extractor upstairs, honey tank down stairs. gravity never fails. 

Never used a hot room, never found a need. 

Uncappers and extractors all operate about the same. The big decision is honey/wax separation. Choose and choose wisely. 

Crazy Roland


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## Ian

jim lyon said:


> I like natural light as well but, personally, I wouldn't overdo the windows. If you dont clean them regularly they can get unsightly in a hurry. The windows in our extracting room get cleaned daily during extracting season and they still never seem to look clean.


one thing nice about windows is they attract the bees from the lights, mess on the lights or mess on the windows


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## Haraga

Ian do you live close to Miami Manitoba?


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## Ian

the big town of Miami


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## Ben Little

Are you talking about a cappings spinner ROLAND ? I was looking at the Maxant Junior for now .
I like the maxant brand , they seem to be great quality.

Or do you recommend a different brand ?

Ben


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## Markt

I just built one last year that sounds similar to Ian's but I did my extraction room with no windows whatsoever... I just stick a broom handle under one overhead door to keep it up a hair and kill all the lights at the end of the day and it works like a giant bee escape... If you get the vapour proof T5 lights a pressure washer takes the bee crap off them pretty quickly. It's sort of a pain not being able to see out sometimes so I've been thinking about a dinger similar to what you'd find at a gas station to let me know if someone shows up. I'd definitely build big... It's amazing how much stuff a person accumulates that really can't sit outside


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## Ian

dont you guys find sun light motivating? I agree , window cleaning is a pain, but I would rather clean windows once a day than work in a shed without natural light


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## swarm_trapper

Ian said:


> dont you guys find sun light motivating?
> 
> Honestly i find extracting rooms in general to be very unmotivating.


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## Markt

I find sunlight makes me motivated to do outside jobs... You'd be amazed how late into the night you can extract without noticing it when you're not watching it get dark out. Does make it seem a bit like factory work though...


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## jim lyon

Ian said:


> dont you guys find sun light motivating? I agree , window cleaning is a pain, but I would rather clean windows once a day than work in a shed without natural light


I would agree. My point was just a reminder that window placement should be well thought out keeping in mind that they attract lots of bees and some flies and need cleaned regularly.


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## Roland

Ben - my point was that the area of wax/honey separation needs improvement. I have worked with an early Cook and Beales, and was not overly impressed. It functioned, but was noisy. I have also worked with a Fager wax press. It was quiet, but not so efficient. I view it as an area for research. A "black box" that is quiet, cheap to run, and delivers clean unburnt honey, liquid wax, and dirt. But hey, when your crazy, it is easy to dream....

Crazy Roland


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## jim lyon

I am just getting to know my new C&B seperator. So far I am fairly pleased. It is fairly quiet and is claimed to have only about 1% honey loss. That seems about right from my first impression. The kicker on a system like this, though, is a heat exchanger is needed to boost the inflowing honey temp to 100 to 105 degrees. Honey exiting the spinner is clean and clear. The "kicker" is with the heat exchanger, heater and extra pump required it gets to be a pretty expensive setup with fairly high operating costs.


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## Roland

i agree with Jim .We had a sump and mixer to capture the mixed honey and cappings, then a Moyno pump, heat exchanger, and then C+B spinner. The pump and mixer where the source of most problems, float switch would stick, pump would jam with a broken frame, etc. 


For grins, take a known weight of spun cappings, and soak in a known wieght of water. Measure the specific gravity of the water and double check your one percent. We went away from the C+B because it was overwhelming the septic system.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian

what did you gravitate towards Roland


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## Ben Little

Okay , not to get off track here , but I want to design the honey house so I can make use of as much space as possible. If I were to expand my operation later on , that is fine , but I am trying to make do with a certain number of hives 100-200 until I can handle more with my lovely assistant Amanda : ) . I am working a regular 8-5 job mon-fri and I can only do so much work after I get home and on weekends . My regular job is hard enough right now I am worn out at the end of the day , but I love working with Bees so much , I think I could do it full time if possible.

So I don't mind putting good money into the operation and having a nice place to extract and process the honey and hive products properly. I just don't have 200,000. dollars to soak into it : ) maybe half of that at my borrowing ability right now.

I have a piece of land behind my house where I can put a large building , so that is not a big deal finding a place to put it.

So here is what I would like to know. What do you all recommend for a cappings spinner or a way to get the honey out of the wax cappings?
Uncapping tank ? or just uncap right into the spinner ?

All I have right now is a Maxant 1400p 20 frame extractor and I need some help figuring out what is needed to process honey for an operation my size for now , with the ability to expand the extraction line without having to buy all new machines and wasting my money buying smaller equipment to start with now. *Is this even possible to do* ?

Kind of a hard question I know , but I believe in buying things right the first time if possible.

Thanks for putting up with all my stupid questions

Ben


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## Ian

build a good smaller faciltiy now, with a blue print for further expansion in the future. Get your needs covered now, and make a wish list for future expansion,


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## The Honey Householder

Ben Little said:


> Are you talking about a cappings spinner ROLAND ? I was looking at the Maxant Junior for now .
> I like the maxant brand , they seem to be great quality.
> 
> Or do you recommend a different brand ?
> 
> Ben


Ben, Maxant is a good brand. I just wouldn't waste your time and money on they're jr spinner. If you are going to be in the business you might as well buy the sr. spinner. I own 2 myself and have been running them for over 20 years.
I built a new honey house last year and the only equipment that I moved from the old one was the maxant spinners, and my maxant bottling tanks.:thumbsup:


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## Ben Little

Thanks *everyone* , it is all good advice . I think I will just get the bottling tank this year and wait until I can afford the larger one .
What size bottling tank is the better one to go with ? I was just going to get the 600-2 Maxant. 


Ben


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## Markt

If your on a budget find yourself some old stainless Milk tanks from a retiring or upsizing dairy farmer and pump hot water through the freon lines if you need the honey heated... Out of curiousity how many hives are you gonna run out of this building in the next say two or three years?


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## Ben Little

around 200 hives until I get enough money to buy more equipment from sales/rentals.


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## Markt

Ok and do you have access to any other buildings to use for equipment storage? (Barns etc)


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## Ben Little

yes I have a couple buildings for storage. they aren't pest free buildings though , I am worried about emptied honey supers after extraction.


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## sqkcrk

Turn the heat off in the building when you store your supers and set out mouse or rat bait. Seems like that would do it in Nova Scotia. I stack 60 shallow supers on a wearhouse pallet wrap the top w/ a blue plastic tarp and leave them outside for the winter. Sometimes mice build homes in them.


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## Markt

Yeah you'll definitely want to take advantage of those for storage of equipment... Well if you go 40'x40' with 12' ceilings that'd be lots of room at your current size and you can always add on lengthways later... Mine's 40'x104' but I'm still not sure if 50' wide would have been better as far as maneuvering forklifts etc with stuff along the walls and on the floor. It's wide enough as long as stuff gets put away but I certainly wouldn't go less than 40' wide or I'd say you'll be building again from scratch someday if you get bigger... What are the honey averages like in your area? Would I be correct in assuming a large part of your yearly revenue will be from blueberry pollination?


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## beemandan

sqkcrk said:


> Sometimes mice build homes in them.


I put a metal queen excluder on the bottom and top of my stacks to keep the mice out.


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## sqkcrk

Me too. Buggers still get in. Old equipment.


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## beemandan

sqkcrk said:


> Buggers still get in.


Much like bears, not much will stop a determined mouse.


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## Roland

Ian - I am gravitating toward a "Device of my own construction" (quote from Doc brown in Back to the Future). Unfortunately, Inspector Callahan would say "a man has got to know his limitations", and I may exceed mine.

Crazy Roland


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## jim lyon

Hopefully it won't take as many "jigawatts" as our new heat exchanger does.


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## Ben Little

Well the statistics for average honey crop from each hive is around 40 lbs . but I am getting around 3-4 mediums off of my hives this year .

A 40 X 40 building sounds big enough for the size I will be at in the next year or so , I just have no idea if it is better to go bigger to start or not ??

Thanks everyone

Ben L


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## Ben Little

So if I plan to extract a minimum of 800 - 1000 supers , what kind of extraction line would be the better choice ? right from uncapping to bottling .

Thanks

Ben


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## MAXANT

Have you looked into the Cowen systems?
www.cowenmfg.com


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## Ben Little

yes I looked , I already have a maxant 1400P extractor and really don't know if I could incorporate it into their extraction line or not ? I guess I could still use the Maxant extractor and the cowen line ? It's just confusing trying to decide by myself. My family has no background in farming , other than my Father in-law , he kept sheep . kind of different than keeping bees : )
The Barn he has constructed is _like_ one of the commercial Beekeepers honey house in nova scotia , it is a pole barn type building , I know that building has been there for many years and it is solid as can be. I never heard of the type of construction , but then again I don't build buildings : )
So I guess that is my type of building I will go with . 

I wish I knew what the right choices were .

Does anyone else have issues deciding what the right thing is to do in this type of business ? LOL


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## sqkcrk

Sure, all the time. I have been w/out a honey house for 16 years. I get my honey extracted somewhere else. Now I have a building and am looking into setting up an extracting plant in it.


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## Roland

My issue with the big Cowen unit is that it takes up alot of real estate, because you must store the Que between runs. Otherwise, i have heard good feedback.

Crazy Roland


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## Ben Little

What type of bottling system do you all use ?


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## sqkcrk

2 Twentyfive gallon (300 lb) Maxant Bottling Tanks


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## jim lyon

Roland said:


> My issue with the big Cowen unit is that it takes up alot of real estate, because you must store the Que between runs. Otherwise, i have heard good feedback.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Quite true Roland. Holding the Que in some sort of segmented rotating rack similar to the extractor itself is probably doable but would also add considerably to the cost and complexity. Floor space may be cheaper. We just replace an old 128 C&B with a new 120 Cowen. The capacities are quite similar, around a ton an hour. The larger reel of the C&B turns at about 210 rpm's the more compact Cowen compensates by spinning around 275 rpm's. If your honey is testing in the 16's or lower an 8 minute run time is required to do a decent job. Load/unload times with our old C&B was about 1 1/2 minutes. The more automated Cowen takes about 2 minutes. Overall this concept is just really labor efficient but good results can only be obtained with good standardized frames. Don't expect good results with them unless you have good extracting comb or are willing to commit to upgrading them, which may mean a rocky first couple of years of operation.


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## sqkcrk

What should someone w/ about 500 colonies consider in the way of an extracting setup? Is there a ratio between colony numbers and Budget to dedicate towards extracting equipment? CWhat do you suppose it would cost to set up an extracting plant for a 500 colony outfit from MAXANT, Dadant, Mann Lake, Cowen, or Kelley Co.?

What are all the parts necassary? I think I know what the minimum parts are, but maybe someone w/ a honey house could answer.


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## tommyt

sqkcrk said:


> What should someone w/ about 500 colonies consider in the way of an extracting setup? Is there a ratio between colony numbers and Budget to dedicate towards extracting equipment?.


Here is a cowen from there page 

60 FRAME EXTRACTOR W/ AIR ASSIST	$20,065
COWEN UNCAPPER	$7,650
DEBOXER	$3,795
HOT WATER SUPPLY	$1,150
CAPPINGS AUGER	$3,559
COWEN CAPPINGS SPINNER	$8,600
HEATED IN FLOOR SUMP	$2,800
2" GEAR PUMP	$3,750
OVERHEAD EMPTY BOX RETURN	


TOTAL	$53,619

http://www.cowenmfg.com/pages.asp?pageid=106002

They have many more set ups 
All I looked at where more $$$$ than the above


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## Markt

I'm running a little over 500 right now and am using the 60 cowen with air ram as described above but I bought it refurbished straight from cowen 2 years old... Think it came to 27k ish plus shipping and works just like a new one, might be worth looking into. Never seen the C&B equivalent but I like the way that all the bearings/motors etc look like something I can grab at princess auto or equivalent in 2 hours instead of waiting on custom parts from the factory. I should mention that didn't include a spinner or heated sump


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## sqkcrk

I think it looks like a brand new extracting system, minus storage tanks, from MAXANT would run about $19,000.00 plus shipping.

2-30 Frame Extractors @ $4,500.00 each = $9,000.00
Uncapper/Wax Spinner $6,490.00
60" Gravity Clarifier $1,695.00
Model 400-1" Honey Pump $775.00
Model 200-4 Filter System $1,250.00
Total $19,010.00


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## Markt

Those extractors are radial correct?


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## sqkcrk

Yes


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## Markt

One thing about the cowen I like is that you really don't end up with much honey on the floor because you're not carrying frames from an uncapper to the extractor with the horizontal style load. I don't know if it's all that much faster but that's one definite plus not having a sticky floor in my book


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## Ian

I sure like the Cowen 60 frame. Just the hand crank on mine. bought it new a few years back, and i am extremly happy with the uncapper. My old Jumbo use to eat combs like crazy, this new one sends them through. I have a kid on the uncapper and he does not even have to watch.

I heard the C&B uncapper is much better at cutting wax, no pushed wax. The Cowen will leave some as the knives to reach into the frames, so a scratcher is needed after the uncapper to tidy up each frame before the extractor. I usually have a 4 man staff to put through 350 boxes or 15 barrels of honey per day.

My bottle neck is the spinner, Im investing into a C&B spin float next year as I move into my new facility


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## Roland

SQKCRK- I think you choice of 30 frame extractors is way small. Do you ever plan on getting bigger? I am in the process of building two 90 frame radials. Do some math on the cycle times. Pick an extractor that you can load and unload in the same time it takes you to uncap that many frames. 

As for filling, I prefer 2 or 4 piston Elgins, depends on the run size.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk

My space is 14'10"X16'6". That's one reason I thought the 30 Frame Maxant extractors would be best. No, I don't really see me getting any larger.

Maxant doesn't build a bigger extractor, do they? I'd consider a 45 framer. Seems like the next size up would be a Dadant 60 frame extractor?

What is the Elgin you mentioned?


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## Roland

The Elgin filler was a reply to Ben Little. It fills around 1000-2000 jars an hour. 3

Sqkcrk - that is a pretty small space. You have nothing bigger? 

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk

Actually my building has exterior dimensions of 32'X48', broken up by interior walls making three "bays" whose floor space is approx. 14'10"X 31'. THe two outside bays have overhead door and the center bay have a conventional door entrance.

I originally had it built to get the honey packing out of the house and to be able to park my van inside while loading it. So, one outside bay is where buckets of honey, jars, and lids are stored and the middle bay is where honey will be packed and labeled. The third bay is a work area where I have stored nuc boxes and preped them for Spring use. That's where I am considering setting up extracting.

I know it's small. I used to do all my extracting in a 12'X36' trailer when I had 800 colonies. I had to get empty supers out of the trailer almost immediately after extracting them.

I am considering a garage type building to gather pallets of honey in and as a Hot Room. I would then handcart supers into the building.

The 16' dimension could be longer, but it would be under the overhead door tracks.


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## BMAC

Ben Little said:


> Thanks *everyone* , it is all good advice . I think I will just get the bottling tank this year and wait until I can afford the larger one .
> What size bottling tank is the better one to go with ? I was just going to get the 600-2 Maxant.
> 
> 
> Ben


I know, I know Im a few days late and a few dollars short.

So I put alot of thought into that and just bought their 600-3 as it holds 25 gallons vice 16. That should be plenty for us for years to come.


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## My-smokepole

Sqcrk you might think about two small over head doors for the center room so you can move big things straight Through. 
David


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## sqkcrk

Thanks, that's already in the works.


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## Ian

I have a large over head door going into my facility between the hot room and the extraction room. I plan on having the temp over 30 degreesC in the hot room and about 20 degrees or so in the extraction room. Any ideas on how to keep two rooms closed off to each other so that each room stay at its temp without having to open and close this over head door a thousand times per day?


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## sqkcrk

Can you install a sliding door instead? I have friends w/ sliding door and there isn't a great deal of heat transfer. But, if the rooms are next to each other the extracting room will be hot. In which case fans and sweatbands are necassary.

I have been wondering about the use of Plastic Strip Doorways like ones I see at the back doors of many grocery stores and between cooler rooms and work areas in the Produce rooms. They seem to keep flying insects out pretty well. I'm thinking about using that between my extracting room and the rest of the building, plus the overhead door.


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## BMAC

The overhead plastic strips work well but keep in mind the clear plastic gets dirty super easy.


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## Markt

I think you'll have a challenge keeping the extraction room cool no matter what you do... Too many electric motors running with extractor/conveyor/augur/spinner/uncapper/water heater etc all running constantly... Combine that with the outside temps being over 20 and I think the only way you could do it would be a big AC unit


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## sqkcrk

Get a big exhaust fan, a barn fan, set in a wall of your extracting room and a window on the cool side of the bldg, the north side?


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## Markt

Anyone know what the CFIA regs on doing something like that are? They seem to be a bit of a moving target at times


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## sqkcrk

Running cooling fans in your honey extracting room? Regulations on that?


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## Markt

You'd be amazed haha... Wondered whether they might want some kind of filter on there


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## Ian

ya, AC is planned for the extraction room, 
plastic strips are an idea


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## Ian

Markt said:


> Anyone know what the CFIA regs on doing something like that are? They seem to be a bit of a moving target at times


Far as Im concerned my ventilation fans are easy to clean so they are good to go. An air exchange is needed in the extraction room to remove moisture during washing. I dont know about filters, doubt that very much. If thats the case, then they can stick their regs you know where


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## Markt

Ian said:


> then they can stick their regs you know where


I hear ya haha


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## sqkcrk

Don't dig into the CFIA Regs too far. Forgiveness is easier to get than permission. Do Canadian Honey Houses get inspected? Regularly?


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## Ben Little

Well I am going to order my Bottling Tank from Beemaid , They have the 600-3 Maxant with the NDV . for around 1380 ish + tax , it was only a little more money for the 300 LB vs 200 .
It should serve me well for a long time according to many reviews 
Is a clarifier a good idea for me right now ? I would need a pump as well right ?
The other thing I would love to know is how easy is it to keep the temp low on the bottling tank ? like the same temp as the inside of a hive .

Thanks
Ben L


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## BMAC

Easy enough. Its water jacketed with heating element in it. Just dont try pouring 5 drums in 1 day.


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## dgl1948

Call Maxant and order direct from them. We have used Beemaid in the past with very poor results. They have messed up every order for equipment. Our orders direct to them went very well. Give them a call.




Ben Little said:


> Well I am going to order my Bottling Tank from Beemaid , They have the 600-3 Maxant with the NDV . for around 1380 ish + tax , it was only a little more money for the 300 LB vs 200 .
> It should serve me well for a long time according to many reviews
> Is a clarifier a good idea for me right now ? I would need a pump as well right ?
> The other thing I would love to know is how easy is it to keep the temp low on the bottling tank ? like the same temp as the inside of a hive .
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Ben L


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## dgl1948

We are in the process of building a new honey house. It is 48 x 64 with in floor heat. The walls are structural engineered panels with an R34 rating. The building will have a main extracting room, a hot room, a storage area, a small office area, bathroom with showers and clothes washing facilities. Floor should be done this week and the building goes up in late August. It would have been nice to have this year but we are in "next year" country.


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## Ben Little

I was told I would need a broker or something for shipping across the border , and pay a duty ? I don't have a broker and I thought it would cost just as much to have it shipped from Beemaid.

Maybe if I could figure out how to get things shipped from the USA it would be easier , but I am not good with cross border purchasing . The price I was told was 1390.00 with the No drip valve. That is 90 dollars more than what Maxant is advertising it for . Unless Beemaid screwed up the price , I guess that is possible. I have had orders screwed up before from them .
I will call them again tomorrow and have them send me a written quote on the tank , so I don't get charged another 500 bucks or something like that upon completing the order and have a phone call saying "oh the price you were told is wrong, oops" LOL

*If I could easily buy direct from Maxant, I would in a heartbeat. Somebody might be able to shed light on this maybe.??*

Ben


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## BMAC

Get your enhanced drivers license and come get it. They are not far from the Canadian border. Maybe 45 minutes.

When I bought my 600-3 Jake told me the no drip valve is not standard gear for the unit, rather an optional piece of equipment so you maybe seeing the $90.00 additional due to the no drip valve being I think they cost over $100.00 on their own.

Also you might want to consider their pail perch. It also doubles as a drum perch to drain the last little bit out!


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## Ben Little

For some reason Beemaid doesn't carry the pail perch . I did want one , but I guess I am SOL right now , maybe they will get them next time I order. I don't think Nova Scotia has the Enhanced Drivers Licenses yet.
I don't have a passport either : )

Ben


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## MAXANT

We sell direct, however for Canadian customers, they find it sometimes easier to buy through dealers in Canada due to brokerage/customs fees.
Smaller items can be shipped via USPS easily. Its the larger machines that need to go via freight which means the customers must have a customs agent
to get the machine across the border!


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## Honey In The Meadow

You don't need a "Enhanced Drivers Licence" Just a 1/2 ton truck and a Passport. Have your items shipped to Houlton Maine - Houlton Power Sports is set up to collect shipments for Canadians. Companies like Mann Lake ship free to the USA - again just have it shipped to Houlton ME. and you can go and pick it up. Coming back across the border is no problem; if the product is made in the USA such as Maxant there is no duty only HST - remember we are part of the North America Free Trade Agreement. Houlton is 1 hour drive from Fredericton, New Brunswick. Not sure how far you are from Fredericton, just check it out on Google Map. It may be worth the trip and buy direct from such places like Maxant. If you need help just ask me; not a problem.


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## Ben Little

I am about 355 Km from Dieppe NB , I was never in Fredericton , I go to Dieppe 2 times a year for mechanic update courses , that is as far away I have ever been.


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## jmgi

My new honey house is only a few hundred square feet in area, I just built it recently by the way, and am in the process of furnishing it. It is about 100 feet or so behind my house, a long way from my sanitary sewer line, so what are the options for disposing of the waste water from the sinks. I didn't put in a floor drain for such a small building and there are no toilet facilities either, so basically I just have water to dispose of with a little soap in it from time to time, and not much water at that. I have not contacted my building department about their codes and such yet, so it will depend on what they say, but in the meantime I was just wondering what others have done or ended up doing about drain water in a small building such as this?


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## jmgi

I forgot to mention that the whole structure is wood, the floor system is all treated wood and I do have access to underneath the floor in some areas, so I can still put in the drains when and where I need them.


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## Ian

even if you have a drain heading out into the grass, you will use it everytime. Otherwise your going to be mopping everything up


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## jmgi

I didn't mean I was going to let the water from the sinks just run on the floor, is that what you thought? No, I understand I have to dump it somewhere, but what I want to avoid is having to run a long distance pipe underground to tie into my sanitary, or having to put in a septic field or something idiotic like that for such a small operation. I was thinking maybe they'll let me just run the drain underground into a dry well or something like that for the little water I am going to generate. I plan to only use this honey house maybe a total of a couple weeks or so worth of days every season.


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## Markt

If you're not asking them you could just bury a honey barrel, shoot it full of holes and run into that... Up to you though, I think if you ask them they'd want a concrete holding tank at the least and a legitimate septic with weeping bed at the worst, that's way overkill for what you need though


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## Ian

jmgi said:


> I didn't put in a floor drain for such a small building and there are no toilet facilities either, so basically I just have water to dispose of with a little soap in it from time to time, and not much water at that. . . . . I didn't mean I was going to let the water from the sinks just run on the floor, is that what you thought?I


im talking bout your floor drain. . . that you dont have


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## jmgi

I chose not to put one in because of the fact that the structure of my floor is treated wood (which will have vinyl tile or linoleum over it) and you can't put pitch on that kind of floor over to the drain anyways. The rules say that I don't have to put in a floor drain if I don't want to also.


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## sqkcrk

You could always push water towards a drain.


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## jmgi

Yes, I could do that, at least if I had a real mess to clean up there would be somewhere for it to go.


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## sqkcrk

Honey house floor almost always get sticky and one wants to wash them, so you will be using water on your floor. Some folks use a Shop Vac while others use floor drains. Mop and bucket works also.


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## Honey In The Meadow

Ben Little said:


> I am about 355 Km from Dieppe NB , I was never in Fredericton , I go to Dieppe 2 times a year for mechanic update courses , that is as far away I have ever been.


From Dieppe to Houlton, Maine it is about 3 hour drive. P.S. I love your Facebook page......... keep up the good work


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## Ian

jmgi said:


> I chose not to put one in because of the fact that the structure of my floor is treated wood (which will have vinyl tile or linoleum over it) and you can't put pitch on that kind of floor over to the drain anyways. The rules say that I don't have to put in a floor drain if I don't want to also.


Ya, you will need a good mop and bucket then. The regulations up here, to be compliant with CFIA, suggest to install proper floor drainage.
In my old facility I put in one drain made out of an 1 1/2 water pipe. It drains out into the grass beside the facility. I wish I put in a 2 or 3 inch floor drain pipe as it is continually getting clogged with wax from my wash. My hand wash station drains out into the grass beside the facility also.

The floor in my new facility is focused around my floor drainage system,


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## Ian

Here is what I got, for anyone interested

http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/IanSteppler/media/101_1124_zpsbe1805ae.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

The cement is going to be poured on Monday, so you can see the unit clearly as it would sit under the floor. 
It is hitched up to a water system so that I can flush the gutter out at anytime by turning on the water valve. The gutter drains into a sump which has a wax screen to catch all the wax before it enters the septic system which is plumbed in with the appropriate check valves. Its a SS unit so corrosion is not an issue. The price of this system is basically no more than if I had priced the guys to form in a cement gutter system


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## jmgi

Ian, I'm sure you're excited about the new facility, would be nice to see some pics when its done, always enjoy looking at other honey house setups. If you don't mind telling, how many hives do you run up there?


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## jim lyon

Ian: Nice! Some questions. Did you put in multiple zones? Where did you come up with the SS gutter? Are you going with a 1/4" to the foot slope?


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## jmgi

Sorry Ian I didn't look at your website till just now, I see you have 900 colonies.


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## Ian

jmgi said:


> Sorry Ian I didn't look at your website till just now, I see you have 900 colonies.


ya I love looking at other beekeeper set ups, that is why I post all this stuff, youd be surprised how many people are interested! Wish more would do the same!


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## Ian

jim lyon said:


> Ian: Nice! Some questions. Did you put in multiple zones? Where did you come up with the SS gutter? Are you going with a 1/4" to the foot slope?


I dont understand what you mean by multiple zones, ? can you elaborate? 
They are pouring the floor in one pour,
There is a hutterite colony around here that make them, and supplies them to the guys that I have hired to install my floor. If you google U-Drain I think you might find their website.
To be honest I dont know if it is a 1/4" slope towards the gutter system, but yes everything is sloped. It is going to be so nice to have proper floor drainage!

ha ha ha,


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## jim lyon

The plumber that did mine, set up a manifold with 3 separate manually controlled zones in a 25'x40 foot room. He said its easy to do and good insurance in case of a leak. We often just put honey on one side and use a single zone when the weather is just a bit cool. I'm not sure if it saves much energy but it seems to be all that's needed to take the chill off the honey. I think 1/4" to the foot is pretty standard slope to drains, and it's what I did but there are still some pockets of water that sit in some spots. I have wondered if I would have been happy going a bit more though it you are stacking high leaning becomes a problem at some point.


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## jmgi

Hopefully the outfit doing the pour takes the time to pitch the floor correctly towards the drain. I spent my life in the construction industry, and you would be surprised how in many cases the floor drain turned out to be the highest point in the room!:scratch:


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## jim lyon

Few things in life are as irreversible as a concrete pour. Get the slope right and get the finish you desire right, and guard it with your life from kids, pets and some adults for at least 24 hours.


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## Ian

jim lyon said:


> The plumber that did mine, set up a manifold with 3 separate manually controlled zones in a 25'x40 foot room. He said its easy to do and good insurance in case of a leak. We often just put honey on one side and use a single zone when the weather is just a bit cool. I'm not sure if it saves much energy but it seems to be all that's needed to take the chill off the honey. I think 1/4" to the foot is pretty standard slope to drains, and it's what I did but there are still some pockets of water that sit in some spots. I have wondered if I would have been happy going a bit more though it you are stacking high leaning becomes a problem at some point.


oh, your talking about my floor heat. Ya, I have three heat zones, but I did not isolate zones wthin my rooms as the objective of my contractor was to lay the pipe so that my floor would be evenly heated, Think there is 250' in a loop. It did cross my mind to seperate my heat coils in the hot room so that I dont have to heat the entire floor, but in my mind simplicity is best when laying pipe, especially when its covered with cement! lol


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## Ian

jmgi said:


> Hopefully the outfit doing the pour takes the time to pitch the floor correctly towards the drain. I spent my life in the construction industry, and you would be surprised how in many cases the floor drain turned out to be the highest point in the room!:scratch:


these guys have set up reference points using a laser level, I assume they will be close


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## sqkcrk

jmgi said:


> Hopefully the outfit doing the pour takes the time to pitch the floor correctly towards the drain. I spent my life in the construction industry, and you would be surprised how in many cases the floor drain turned out to be the highest point in the room!:scratch:


I'm afraid that two out of three bays in my building have drains like that.


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## CBC

If your just expanding your operation don't rush into building a giant building with all the bells and whistles. Start small and simple and leave yourself room to expand as your operation does. I'll give my two cents and you can go from there. Commence massive text wall:

I might get some flak on this but personally i would recommend you start small with a 40x40 pole barn structure with a concrete floor and the two end walls framed walls. 12ft ceilings, 12x12 garage door and a man door. Place this building so that you can later add on to the rear and the front of the building (hence the framed end walls).
Take your 40x40 building and divide it in half with a framed up wall. The first 40x20 section will not be insulated and will be for storage of all your equipment. 
Now take the 2nd 40x20 section and divide that further into a 15x20 and a 25x20 room. This will be your extracting and heating room. These two sections will be insulated walls and ceiling. Put in two double doors at least 6ft wide and 7-8ft tall joining each of your three sections. This will allow you to move pallets of supers from storage to extracting room to heating room or however you like. Make sure you put a trench/U-drain in each of these sections and who ever pours your concrete will likely do this for you and put in a proper slope to the floor. You can throw a window in the side walls if you like in each of the heating and extracting rooms if you like. 
From here as your operation expands you can simply pour a concrete pad in from or behind your building to expand whichever section needs the added room. This size extracting and heating room will do fine with your radial extractor setup. Down the road add another 10-15ft on to this section and you can fit an extracting line. This drastically cuts back on initial capital cost of your expanding hives numbers. Its important to remember that the bigger you get the more you have to wholesale your honey and in this province don't count on anything over $1.80-$2.00/lbs bulk/wholesale. Don't forget that if your wanting to go commercial sized you will most likely need to buy a flat deck truck and a loader for pollination season as well as the pallets for the bees to go on. The costs seem endless at times. 

Just a little on building materials. If your end goal is to go commercial then building everything to CFIA standards. Being able to hold a federal CFIA inspection allows you to ship your bulk honey out of province and get a better dollar per pound then selling it within the province. CFIA is a pain to work with but it pays off in the end to go this route.
Despite what people might suggest DO NOT use wood or tin or steel on your interior walls or floor. This is a poor idea in my mind and i have been quite shocked when i walked in many extracting rooms to see plywood or pressure treated lumber being used in a food preparation area. Concrete floors are a must, they are easy to clean and hold up far better then anything else. For walls and ceilings use Galvalum its CFIA approved and is a breeze to clean. Galvalume looks like steel sheeting and goes up the same and it is rugged stuff (white is required for CFIA wall.ceiling colours). A pressure washer is your new best friend making clean up a breeze. We used this in our extracting and heating room on its walls and ceilings (took us forever to find this approved CFIA material) and it looks great and is maintenance free.

We built our facility so that if anything had to be replaced or moved it could be done without tearing into a wall. We ran all our electrical on the outside of the walls and ceilings through grey pvc tubing. Most of our plugs are ceiling plugs so that they drop down to our extracting line and you have no cords on the floor to get tangled. All our plugs and lights are waterproof as well as shatter proof guards on the lighting (CFIA req). CFIA will also tell you the amount of lighting needed in a given area to pass inspection. Lastly, make sure when you run the power to your building you keep in mind the power draw from an extracting line, heating/settling tanks, heater for your heating room and all the lights.

Last part of rant. Equipment wise, work with what you have then add pieces as you can afford. If your thinking about an extracting line then i would suggest looking at Cowen's 28-frame extracting line, its compact and not a killer on the pocket book. Many folks will say go for the 60-framer but most commercial guys i talk to with them say its a two man machine. With a 28-framer i easily do 5-6,000 lbs in a short work day by myself and don't feel rushed. 

We use to extract 21,000-25,000 lbs of honey with a single wax picker and a 10 frame maxant radial for several years out of a building with a 10x10 room that served as a heating and extracting room. Extractor still works too! Our wax cappings were cleaned by the bees and 30lbs buckets were the decorations of every square inch of our honey house floor it seemed. We started small and grew our infrastructure as the hive numbers/business grew.


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## Ian

CBC said:


> I
> I might get some flak on this but personally i would recommend you start small with a 40x40 pole barn structure with a concrete floor and the two end walls framed walls. 12ft ceilings, 12x12 garage door and a man door. Place this building so that you can later add on to the rear and the front of the building (hence the framed end walls).
> T


Why would you get flak for that, its exactly what I did. Pole sheds are a good economical way to go


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## CBC

I just put that in there since too many folks seem to have the "go big or go home" attitude and seem to forget that capital costs are very high starting off in this industry compared to initial profit margins.


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## Ben Little

Thanks , I have to get the permits for the building and need to know all of the costs to get it , I haven't yet found anything out from CFIA , I went to the local FIA and they say they only do Fish , I have the name and number for the guy who does the Honey inspections for NS, I haven't yet done anything with that.
I was planning on coming up on the farm day that is coming up, to see your family farm and meet everyone , hoping to get a look at your setup too.

The building inspector said a pole barn construction was ODD because we don't have a lot of poles around ???huh??? I wasn't in the shop when he dropped in , but all I could do when I heard that was laugh a lot ! 

My father in-law has (I think) a 40X36 pole barn and it is as solid as can be , and he had engineered drawings for it, but can't find them. I know if it is over 800 Sft it has to be engineered concrete , but what about the building itself ?

I planned on starting the construction this fall , but I didn't want to start until I saw a newer style honey house . It would help bring some things to perspective for me .

40 X 40 sounds about the right size for quite a while for me and I will wait (like you mentioned) to do any expanding . I had a floor plan in mind , but I kept changing it LOL

I am currently looking for a good loader , I found some , but for only doing one pollination , it is expensive . I have given thought to renting one , but I hate renting things.

Have a good one and Thanks ( *CBC* )

Ben L

P.S. my main reason for building this is because I am currently "borrowing" space from a building that our shop uses for new parts storage , I cleaned a section of it out and have it insulated and plastic everywhere for now , but I don't have room to put many supers in and I have to lug them from my house 300 ft away through the woods , and bottle it back in my basement LOL My back and shoulders are killing me because of it. but it is all in good fun.


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## CBC

I'll put together all my CFIA papers and you can look at my ledger for costs of our building expansion as well as where we got our materials. I would suggest registering as a business, getting your GST # before you think about doing anything so you get your taxes back and you can apply for funding for some materials through Dept Agriculture programs (if registered farmer) if you are going CFIA route which i would suggest you do.

I am not sure on "engineered" concrete, we had an existing building and perp'd the inside for concrete, after it was poured it was cut into 4 blocks for our main 40x60 storage area. This prevents cracking. Anyone doing your pour will tell you type of concrete and thickness based on the weight you plan on putting on the floor.

Kubota sometimes have used R310s or R320s come in but the things never seem to die so its rare they are traded in or are up for sale. I would stay away from skid steers, too jerky and bumpy for loading bees in my opinion.


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## Ian

Ben Little said:


> The building inspector said a pole barn construction was ODD because we don't have a lot of poles around ???huh??? I wasn't in the shop when he dropped in , but all I could do when I heard that was laugh a lot !


our poles were made from 2 by 6 laminated, treated one end.


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## sqkcrk

Ben Little said:


> The building inspector said a pole barn construction was ODD because we don't have a lot of poles around ???huh??? I wasn't in the shop when he dropped in , but all I could do when I heard that was laugh a lot !


Are u going to have Amish build your Pole Barn, since you don't have very many Poles in your area?


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## cg3

Am I going to have to call mine a hippy barn?


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## Ben Little

I have my business registered and a tax number , also I registered the farm with Dept of Ag. 
I have seen some of the Kabotas around for sale ( R510 ), but those are way too heavy . I keep looking almost everyday .


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## Ben Little

How many 2 x 6 's did you use ? 3 ? I was going to use 6 x 6 posts , but I was thinking it would be easier to use the 2 x 6 because of notching them for the braces , which I have seen done on some of the pole barns.
I would also think it would be a little stronger , but I am not a carpenter .


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## dgl1948

We have the same setup. Cement is done. Are you using an epoxy on the cement to protect it from the honey? We are using this for the walls. http://emsips.com/



Ian said:


> Here is what I got, for anyone interested
> 
> http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/IanSteppler/media/101_1124_zpsbe1805ae.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
> 
> The cement is going to be poured on Monday, so you can see the unit clearly as it would sit under the floor.
> It is hitched up to a water system so that I can flush the gutter out at anytime by turning on the water valve. The gutter drains into a sump which has a wax screen to catch all the wax before it enters the septic system which is plumbed in with the appropriate check valves. Its a SS unit so corrosion is not an issue. The price of this system is basically no more than if I had priced the guys to form in a cement gutter system


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## mgolden

Will you need a Building Permit and engineered drawings to get that. Insurance and further permits such as electrical can be problems if you don't have a Building Permit. 

Laminated 2x6 post with treated wood used on the below ground end work well. It is also my understanding that you get much better preservative with PWF wood for the treated wood. Something like 60 year warranty as opposed to 40 years for 6 x 6.

With 2 x 6 post, one can run horizontal 2 x 6 to hold insulation and provide support for vertical interior metal finish.


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## CBC

We went with 4x6 treated posts spaced 4ft center mounted on a 3x8 treated post (mudsill) we laid down in a 4ft trench (below frost lvl). If you go 4ft center with your posts you can bolt/attach your roof trusses to each of the posts. Not an engineer but we were advised that to go above 12ft interior ceiling height in a pole barn you need 4x6 posts not 2 2x6 joined.

Look at the lumber place in Brookfield, think its Morrow-Wood that's where we got all our posts. Also try at your local Dept. Agriculture, they would have lots of approved schematics/blueprints for barn structures.


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## mgolden

Just to advise, my machine shed is 50 x 80 and 20 ft walls. Posts are 8 ft centers and are 4 plys of 2 x 6. Portion of 2 x 6 below grade is PWF material which has more treatment than a 6 x 6. If fmy memory is correct, the PWF posts are supposed to have a 60 year life. 

Need to check local building code and go to a local farm supply store that sells pole buildings and can do a design.


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## Ian

dgl1948 said:


> We have the same setup. Cement is done. Are you using an epoxy on the cement to protect it from the honey? We are using this for the walls. http://emsips.com/


I was wondering about a floor treatment. I dont know what to do. The cement was mixed with a higher hardness, 32 MPA , to help resist the corrosive nature of the honey on the floor. epoxy is expensive, are you using it?


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## Ian

Ben Little said:


> How many 2 x 6 's did you use ? 3 ? I was going to use 6 x 6 posts , but I was thinking it would be easier to use the 2 x 6 because of notching them for the braces , which I have seen done on some of the pole barns.
> I would also think it would be a little stronger , but I am not a carpenter .


yes, the posts are three 2*6 glued and nailed together, with the appropriate lengths of treated lumber below grade. notching them is very convenient .


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## dgl1948

We are going to use epoxy. The contractor that did the cement quoted $4500.00 for a floor on our 48 x 64 foot floor. We have been told that honey is one of the hardest things on a cement floor. Our thinking is that floor a floor costing this much the epoxy is good insurance.



Ian said:


> I was wondering about a floor treatment. I dont know what to do. The cement was mixed with a higher hardness, 32 MPA , to help resist the corrosive nature of the honey on the floor. epoxy is expensive, are you using it?


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## Ian

I hear you loud and clear on that one.
how is it applied?


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## My-smokepole

High $$ floor epoxie is self leveling. Pour and squeegee it out with a special squeegee back roll with a spike roller to remove air bubbles. As I remember about 6 mm thick dry. About $ 1.25 a foot to put down as I remember


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## Roland

We have been using epoxy floors since the 60's. Be careful, you get what you pay for. The best was advertised as "monolithic". I believe there where ground up chunks of epoxy that made the aggregate they mixed with the liquid.

Crazy Roland


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## Bee Geek

I brew my own Beer in my Honey House, 
We call it the Hoppy Barn!

Our slogan on the door says "Bee Hoppy, or Leave!"


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## Ben Little

4500 is a good price for the floor size you have !! concrete is more expensive here.


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## dgl1948

That was just for the epoxy. Add a another zero for the concrete floor.



Ben Little said:


> 4500 is a good price for the floor size you have !! concrete is more expensive here.


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## dgl1948

I have not asked how it was applied. They do an acid wash and then the epoxy. I would think withy a roller but???



Ian said:


> I hear you loud and clear on that one.
> how is it applied?


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## Ben Little

dgl1948 said:


> That was just for the epoxy. Add a another zero for the concrete floor.


That sounds more like it LOL


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## Bee Geek

You can do the Epoxy floor paint yourself no problem, in my barn/honey house I have 1620 SF that I applied two coats in one day. It is two parts, I used a Sherwin Williams product that you mix and wait 15 minutes to heat up, then roll on in a thick sticky coat. Great product I've had down for three years, drove my tractors, JD Gator, trucks, hives, foot traffic and still looks new. My cost was US $.56/SF. I recommend two people because once it starts to kick it goes quick, slower in your climate but two folks will be much more efficient. Nothing sticks to it. Honey washes off with warm water, and oil beads up just asking to be swept up with a paper towel.
Good luck.


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## Ian

Anyone use linseed oil to treat their floor ?


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## Markt

I've used it on trailer decks before with good effect... Or do you mean on a concrete floor?


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## Ian

ya used as a concrete floor treatment. A beekeeper told me some will treat with linseed oil because the cement pours will absorb the oil


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## Rader Sidetrack

I admit I was skeptical about linseed oil as a concrete sealant, but it has been tested on runways and roads subject to severe weather. A study from the University of Manitoba on that subject:
http://www.ce.ncsu.edu/srizkal/link...LinseedOilAsAConcreteSealant_Wright_May91.pdf


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## Ian

Graham you are a very helpful resource on this site. You wouldn't happen to be a librarian in your working life, eh?


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## Rader Sidetrack

No, I have never been a librarian. 

But sometimes what happens is that I read a post and say, "_That's crazy!_".:no: But then before I post that (and make myself look foolish ), I think maybe I better check on that first ... :lookout:


The first step in finding good online references is to figure out the best search terms. Not surprisingly, the more frequently you do that, the easier it gets.


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## marios

wow wish i knew that before i finished my floor with a regular sealer, it is so slippery now i fell and tore all the ligaments in my ellbow,ian you are right lots of good information posted on this site by all of you


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## grozzie2

Ian said:


> ya used as a concrete floor treatment. A beekeeper told me some will treat with linseed oil because the cement pours will absorb the oil


When I was a kid, grew up in a construction household, and I do remember linseed oil was used for concrete in many places. I seem to remember it being used to treat floors, but I dont remember the details. Got some questions out to the old contractor of the day (dad), and will let you know once I get the details. I do remember we went thru a LOT of it, when building schools in the 70's.


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## Markt

Do you think the CFIA guys would go for that?


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## Ian

I don't see why not, it's a plant based oil product. Like the food grade grease I use on my extractor


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## grozzie2

Ok, I got a response from the old time contractor, I'll quote it here for everybody. Names removed by request of the original source

==================
We used boiled linseed oil to seal concrete so it could be sprayed with salt in the winter without surface damage. We took 1/3 linseed oil and 2/3 diesel fuel mixed and applied it to new concrete when it was cured and dry for 28 days. An week later we applied an other mix , this time 2/3 linseed oil and 1/3 diesel fuel and sprayed it on under dry conditions . The curbs along hi way 16 trough town are still there in the original condition after 40 years where they were not damaged during snow removal because the pores are sealed and no salt could penetrate the surface .We sprayed it on with a pump type sprayer. This was the idea from **** ******* . He was a friend and hi way engineer . Later this idea was rejected because diesel fuel was not friendly to the environment .

==============

I can attest to what he's saying about the hiway curbs, I was there when we sprayed them, and remembered that as soon as I read his email. I was up there last summer, they do look like new. I didn't realize it was the same old set we poured way back when, but he's been keeping an eye on them over the years, didn't move away from that town till last fall, shortly after mom left us, and dad moved to a seniors place that provides meals to otherwise independant living. He's 80 now, so, we excused him for not wanting to learn to cook after mom passed.


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## Ian

Ya, that is what my beekeeper neighbour told me too, the cement absorbed the linseed oil and filled the pours . 
Think I'll skip the desil fuel step though


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## cg3

I've seen new terra cotta tile floors treated with used motor oil in Mexico with surprisingly good results.


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## Pops

marios said:


> wow wish i knew that before i finished my floor with a regular sealer, it is so slippery now i fell and tore all the ligaments in my ellbow,ian you are right lots of good information posted on this site by all of you


You can put a grit paint on and it will help with the floor too late for your elbow


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## johng

Be careful with lind seed oil. I spilled some once and wiped it up with some rags, then carelessly just threw the rags on my tree stand that was sitting in the corner of the garage. A couple days later I found the rags had started a fire on the platform. It was glowing red hot under those rags. Keep that in mind when using it. I could of burnt the whole house down.


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## BMAC

We used to use Linseed Oil to seal the stocks of our Ceremonial M14 rifles. Worked great and gave a wonderful finish to the wood. Never tried it on concrete before and yes rags soaked with linseed oil stuck somewhere in the corner of garages do spontaneously combust. Of course linseed oil is NOT the only oil based product that will do it, I think linseed oil is one of the few products that actually warn users of the danger of spontaneous combustion.


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## CLICKBANGBANG

My-smokepole said:


> High $$ floor epoxie is self leveling. Pour and squeegee it out with a special squeegee back roll with a spike roller to remove air bubbles. As I remember about 6 mm thick dry. About $ 1.25 a foot to put down as I remember


Most epoxies don't need a porcupine roller, but it can help release flow trapped air up on cold days. We only use spike rollers for toppers and self levels. 

Depending on the system, we get between $2.50-$6 a sq ft here (labor and mat). This is using a moisture, PH, and alkalinity resistant bottom coat, priming mid with mesh for slip resistance, and one or two color top coats. It usually ends up around 20-30 mils when done. You get what you pay for. We give a 15 year warranty on the epoxy. 

All epoxie coated floors should be shot blasted to a #3 profile. Diamond grinding with a 30 grit soft bond metal will only get you a #2, but it's better than nothing. Do NOT acid wash concrete before applying epoxy. If the installer or manufacture specs acid stripping the slab as "only prep needed," it's junk epoxy and won't hold up. We blast to a #4 profile or into sand whichever comes first. 

FYI, oiling your slab will ensure that NOTHING will ever correctly bond to the surface, ever. If you maybe will put in epoxy, floor covering, or ceramic tile in, oiling the slab will not let anything bond and a 100% floating system will have to be used.

I have slab core samples being sent to Mineralogy Inc. to lab test for organic surface contaminates (oils and salts). Customer wanted epoxy. After it was applied (not me, but certified applicator) the floor failed. I'm in there trying to mediate the customer and installer. The suspect contaminate is linseed oil installed by the previous owner... Tread accordingly. 

(Heaven forbid...) You do need to use diesel or kerosine with the linseed oil to thin it out. It by itself it not near viscosis enough to penitrate the surface of the slab to seal it. But I do not suggest doing this, ever, even by accident. By our state building code, oil does not provide a food grade seal to the concrete slab. Check local codes before installing anything. 

I'm a newbe beekeeper. By trade, I'm a surface demolition contractor, surface prep, and exposed concrete finisher. I install color and sealers to high and low sheen polished concrete surfaces, install epoxy moisture barriers, and prep concrete substrate to accept the new flooring system buy diamond grinding and shot blasting. I just keep bees because being a contractor in this economy isn't punishing enough.


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## jim lyon

CLICKBANGBANG said:


> Most epoxies don't need a porcupine roller, but it can help release flow trapped air up on cold days. We only use spike rollers for toppers and self levels.
> 
> Depending on the system, we get between $2.50-$6 a sq ft here (labor and mat). This is using a moisture, PH, and alkalinity resistant bottom coat, priming mid with mesh for slip resistance, and one or two color top coats. It usually ends up around 20-30 mils when done. You get what you pay for. We give a 15 year warranty on the epoxy.
> 
> All epoxie coated floors should be shot blasted to a #3 profile. Diamond grinding with a 30 grit soft bond metal will only get you a #2, but it's better than nothing. Do NOT acid wash concrete before applying epoxy. If the installer or manufacture specs acid stripping the slab as "only prep needed," it's junk epoxy and won't hold up. We blast to a #4 profile or into sand whichever comes first.
> 
> FYI, oiling your slab will ensure that NOTHING will ever correctly bond to the surface, ever. If you maybe will put in epoxy, floor covering, or ceramic tile in, oiling the slab will not let anything bond and a 100% floating system will have to be used.
> 
> I have slab core samples being sent to Mineralogy Inc. to lab test for organic surface contaminates (oils and salts). Customer wanted epoxy. After it was applied (not me, but certified applicator) the floor failed. I'm in there trying to mediate the customer and installer. The suspect contaminate is linseed oil installed by the previous owner... Tread accordingly.
> 
> (Heaven forbid...) You do need to use diesel or kerosine with the linseed oil to thin it out. It by itself it not near viscosis enough to penitrate the surface of the slab to seal it. But I do not suggest doing this, ever, even by accident. By our state building code, oil does not provide a food grade seal to the concrete slab. Check local codes before installing anything.
> 
> I'm a newbe beekeeper. By trade, I'm a surface demolition contractor, surface prep, and exposed concrete finisher. I install color and sealers to high and low sheen polished concrete surfaces, install epoxy moisture barriers, and prep concrete substrate to accept the new flooring system buy diamond grinding and shot blasting. I just keep bees because being a contractor in this economy isn't punishing enough.


Nice informative post. Ya gotta love the breadth of knowledge of some of the folks that show up here. Professionals in other fields, know what I mean?


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## Ben Little

Hows the arm doing ? Any photos of your setup yet ?
I will be a year before starting our honey house , spending too much money on bees and equipment in the next few months.

Ben



marios said:


> wow wish i knew that before i finished my floor with a regular sealer, it is so slippery now i fell and tore all the ligaments in my ellbow,ian you are right lots of good information posted on this site by all of you


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## Ian

Clickbangbang that was awesome. I'm going to be PM'ing you for your email address if you don't mind me bugging you for further input. 

Do you need to tap into some practical beekeeping experience? I can give you all I've got .


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## Ian

jim lyon said:


> Nice informative post. Ya gotta love the breadth of knowledge of some of the folks that show up here. Professionals in other fields, know what I mean?


Gota love when it all comes together, 
I'd say that post from Clickbangbang was a home run !


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## CLICKBANGBANG

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I admit I was skeptical about linseed oil as a concrete sealant, but it has been tested on runways and roads subject to severe weather. A study from the University of Manitoba on that subject:
> http://www.ce.ncsu.edu/srizkal/link...LinseedOilAsAConcreteSealant_Wright_May91.pdf


This study report is from 1989 and the ASTM C457 has been replaced with new standards and testing methods. 



Ian said:


> Clickbangbang that was awesome. I'm going to be PM'ing you for your email address if you don't mind me bugging you for further input.
> 
> Do you need to tap into some practical beekeeping experience? I can give you all I've got .


Please do get ahold of me if you have any (flooring surface) questions. I'll help out wherever I can.


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## Roland

Thank you Clickbangbang. My experience concurs with your statements. Spilled hydraulic oil is hard to epoxy over when repairing a damaged flour.

Crazy Roland


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## ApricotApiaries

Hey, I found this thread from a google search of "Honey House 500 hives." Just finished reading through it and I must say, this is a great thread. Very informative. I really appreciate the details about drains, gutters, hot room floors, concrete treatments. 
I am in the process of outgrowing every nook and cranny of storage and shop space that I have access to, and am starting to plan a building project. I currently operate just shy of 200 hives but am planning a space to accomodate 400-500, which is more or less my goal. It seems like one semi-load is a nice economy of scale, but that is a whole different thread. 

Ben Little, you started this forum several years ago. Did you build your shop? What did you go with? How big? How much space dedicated to storage, extracting, office....


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## Ben Little

I have not started building, I put my money into bees until I can build the right type of facility I want and need. I like to do things right the first time and it seems that every time I speak to a beekeeper with a honey house they say the same thing "you can never build it big enough" so I will be going bigger than my original plans.


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## jean-marc

I think that is a very good idea Ben to put the money into the bees. They are the ones that generate the money. Also good to build bigger than you think you need. Imagine the most bees you'll ever want to run, then double that number, then double it again and you might start getting close to the bare minumum size of building you'll need.

Jean-Marc


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## jim lyon

Ben Little said:


> I have not started building, I put my money into bees until I can build the right type of facility I want and need. I like to do things right the first time and it seems that every time I speak to a beekeeper with a honey house they say the same thing "you can never build it big enough" so I will be going bigger than my original plans.


Also consider going vertical (at least 16' sidewalls) and making doorways large enough for forklifts which can be purchased used quite reasonably. Much better bang for the buck than stretching out horizontally.


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## hex0rz

I've got a pole building that is a lean to style. Measures 16x36. 16 at the short and 20 at the peak. It also includes a 10x10 attachment at the rear. 

Was thinking about using it for beekeeping related things. If you guys had a building this size what would you do with it?


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## beepro

Section off one side to house the overwinter bees in there.


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## Ian

Ben Little said:


> I have not started building, I put my money into bees until I can build the right type of facility I want and need. I like to do things right the first time and it seems that every time I speak to a beekeeper with a honey house they say the same thing "you can never build it big enough" so I will be going bigger than my original plans.


Don't forget additions allow planning over years. My place isn't big enough, but my plans to build an addition will solve all my problems. I just gotta spend more money lol


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## Ben Little

Ian said:


> Don't forget additions allow planning over years. My place isn't big enough, but my plans to build an addition will solve all my problems. I just gotta spend more money lol


Hopefully this year will be a turning point in our operation and we will see some good revenue we had a great pollination season and praying for a good honey flow this year. Maybe Farm Credit Canada will like us more after this fiscal year, that way we can borrow enough to do the job right


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## ApricotApiaries

Ben, out of curiosity, how have you solved the shop related bottlenecks over the last several years while you grow? Are you using someone else's shop to extract? equipment storage?


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## Ben Little

Yes we are still using borrowed space for most of our extraction and storage.


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