# Lost our colony :( Any guesses on why?



## PohioGypsies (Oct 18, 2017)

So, I posted a thread entitled "Fall Feeding" about 3 weeks ago. The last update on the hive is that we checked it after robbing activity and it was full of honey and bees. It was beautiful and we really thought we had dodged a bullet. I had checked on the hive again one cool day just by putting my ear against it and listening and there was a lovely hum that told me all was well.

I went out to check on them today. I saw no activity so I moved the entrance reducer and found the entire entrance littered with little honeybee corpses. I listened to the side and heard nothing. We have lost our entire colony. All but two frames on the top box are emptied of honey. The bottom is pretty much the same. I found our dead queen surrounded by workers hanging on a frame in the bottom box. Many of the bees looked like they had just died suddenly in the middle of their daily activity.

Is it possible that when we checked the hive and found it full of honey and bees that it was actually robber bees we were seeing? There was no frenzy going on anymore so we just assumed they were our bees. And if it were robber bees why did they leave two beautiful frames of honey behind?

It's pretty devastating. I'm shocked and I didn't even tell my husband so he doesn't have to be bummed out at work. 

So, any thoughts on what may have happened? And what do we do now? How do we clean the box out? Do we harvest the two frames of honey that was left?


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## PohioGypsies (Oct 18, 2017)

Here is what one of the frames looks like and a picture of our queen...


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I am so very new. I would guess that the two frames are left because it got cold enough that the bees had to go into cluster. I would extract the two frames of honey. I would tell my husband after softening him up with his favorite meal.
I wish I could be more or even any help.
Sorry for your loss
gww


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Characteristics of the common early winter death from varroa in northern states (Bee Informed Partnership):

1. The colony was big and looked healthy in the fall. Yes
2. A lot of honey is left in the top supers Yes
3. The cluster is now small, maybe the size of a softball
4. There are hardly any bees on the bottom board
5. Near or just below the cluster is a patch of spotty brood Circled in Yellow– some fully capped, and some with bees dying on emergence (heads facing out, tongues sticking out). Circled in Red
6. If you look closely in the cells around the brood, you will see white crystals stuck to the cell walls, looking like someone sprinkled coarse salt in the brood nest.

I will add:

7. A tell-tale sign of varroa mite infestation is also Deformed Wing Virus. I can't be certain, but the bee circled in Green does not seem to have healthy wings to me. Could be quality of picture. 









I do not know if your hive died from varroa. Since I believe that Varroa is the #1 killer of hives in the US, it is the first thing I seek to rule out before I move on to other possibilities. 

In any event, it makes me depressed anytime I lose a hive. I take it as a personal failure, which is not a reasonable reaction, but just the way I take it. But the reality is that loses are a part of beekeeping. Harvest your honey and put protect your drawn comb. Start searching for a local supplier of bees and get on their list for spring. It will be here before you know it. Don't give up.


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## PohioGypsies (Oct 18, 2017)

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It?s going to take some time for us to digest it all but we will work towards doing that so we learn. 
I?ll look again tomorrow at the bee you circled in green to check out her wings. 
Here is an image of our bottom board from just a couple weeks ago. There are varroa present but I did t consider it a deadly infestation. I have so much to learn. 

gww, thank you for the condolences and the advice...hubby took the news better with a good meal in his belly.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Do understand that I am one of those "Varroa Did It" posters that annoy many people on this board. I admit to my bias, though I think it is a well-founded one. I do not know that your bees died from varroa infestation. But I do think that these post-mortem inquiries should logically start with varroa, or at least be able to eliminate varroa, before moving to the next probable cause. 

Kind of like when someone dies of unnatural causes and the detectives start with the spouse.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

psm1212 said:


> Do understand that I am one of those "Varroa Did It" posters that annoy many people on this board


I am too. I believe that we get tunnel vision and often only look at the overt symptoms of a colony collapse. And then we look no further. It is my experience that in most colony failures varroa are a major cause…often underlying….sometimes overt.....t but a big part of most problems. 
I’ve seen it over and over. If you adequately manage your varroa….practically everything else falls into place.
If you ignore them....you will either be on a bee buying treadmill or abandon the hobby.


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## PohioGypsies (Oct 18, 2017)

beemandan said:


> I am too. I believe that we get tunnel vision and often only look at the overt symptoms of a colony collapse. And then we look no further. It is my experience that in most colony failures varroa are a major cause…often underlying….sometimes overt.....t but a big part of most problems.
> I’ve seen it over and over. If you adequately manage your varroa….practically everything else falls into place.
> If you ignore them....you will either be on a bee buying treadmill or abandon the hobby.


I don't know enough to rule anything out but I do wonder, "Where did all the honey stores go???"


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

PSM1212 did a real nice job of explaining what he believed what happened. I will second his assumptions. As far as where do you go from here? I would seal up those frames with honey in them and they will give you an excellent start to next year. Yes, you will need to get more bees. Or, come early spring, you can set up the hive with some of the empty combs and try to catch a swarm. Most of all, try not to be discouraged. Many, if not most, first year beekeepers are having the same issue you are. I lost all my hives (4) the first two years. Once I really started to take varroa seriously, my luck got much better.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

I agree with the mite diagnoses... of course in reality we can not say anything for sure - except they are dead.
Building up, doing real well - booming crop, then dying.

off topic -
Why do people post small pictures when wanting others to see details? I would suggest a 1024x768 as minimal for seeing details.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

PohioGypsies said:


> I don't know enough to rule anything out but I do wonder, "Where did all the honey stores go???"


Surely robbing is a possibility....or even likely. But...taking the thought a step further....why were the bees susceptible to robbing? Was it sheer coincidence that the neighborhood bees decided to attack that hive? Or may they have been weakened by some underlying cause? 
I keep a couple of hundred hives. There are about 40 in my backyard. We are in a nectar dearth. I have been feeding some that are low on stores. No robbing. A lot of testing. Bees from other colonies for miles around test all of the hives seeking any that fail to put up a good defense. Colonies weakened for any reason...varroa included....are discovered quickly...and emptied even more quickly.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Mike j


> Why do people post small pictures when wanting others to see details? I would suggest a 1024x768 as minimal for seeing details.


If they are like me they may not even own a camera and thier phone might be old and they might be too computer illiterate to do better. I am not saying this about phohiog.... but am saying that is why I suck at pictures.

phohiogy.....
If you saw robbing, that does not mean mites were not what was weakining the hive to not having good defences. I would say if you did see some robbing that that is where your full hive went and it might have stoped before they got done due to the weather. I do usually see dead bees in front of the hive when I have robbing and also little white wax dots everywhere. I have never seen comb from robbing but hear the bees tear it up and that might be noticable but robbing is usually a symptom and not a cause. But I am probly the least experianced guy in this thread trying to give advice and so keep that in mind.
Good luck
gww


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

MikeJ said:


> off topic - Why do people post small pictures when wanting others to see details? I would suggest a 1024x768 as minimal for seeing details.


Be careful casually handing out such advice. Posting 'displayed' images of that size violates Beesource rules, but 1024x768 pixels won't upload to Beesource in any case.


> Attachments/Images. There are restrictions on the file size of attachments. If you can't get an attachment to upload, check to make sure your file size is not larger than 195 kB for .jpg, .gif, .bmp, .jpeg, .pdf, .png, .txt, .xls, .xlsx. There is a maximum width and height of 640x480 pixels for .bmp, .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .png.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?226194-Forum-Rules


However, there are options to show larger photos. One can just post a clickable link (_not_ one that displays within the thread) and your image (hosted elsewhere) can be as big as you wish.

One can post a thumbnail image that, when clicked, expands to a larger/fullsize image. This would also be hosted elsewhere.

My suggestion is to use Postimg.org and their "Thumbnail for Forums" option for oversize images. More on that, including an example, here: 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-Photo-uploading-and-misc-other-forum-tips-**


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Be careful casually handing out such advice. Posting 'displayed' images of that size violates Beesource rules.....


Did I say to post it direct to beesource?? :scratch:


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## PohioGypsies (Oct 18, 2017)

The robbing situation is described fully in my "Fall feeding" post. We exposed our bees to the robbing when we fed them. We weren't careful enough, apparently AND we used some supplements that would have made the syrup even more alluring to robber bees. Two things we regret and will not repeat next year. Our bees, according to an experienced keeper in the area, were quite strong up until the robbing. The robbing went on for days and days. 
When we checked the bees after the robbing had stopped the honey stores were in place, still capped. No cappings were found on the bottom board. We really thought we got lucky.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Possibly they died of mites (possibly), and the sound you heard when you put your ear to the hive - wasn't the colony's bees but the robbers cleaning out the stores of the then dead hive...... possibly?


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## PohioGypsies (Oct 18, 2017)

MikeJ said:


> off topic -
> Why do people post small pictures when wanting others to see details? I would suggest a 1024x768 as minimal for seeing details.


I attached the pics and the site said it required them to be resized. I clicked "ok" and the the pics were posted. If there's another way to post a different size picture, I am unaware. Ether way, psm1212 was able to clearly see my pic and explain what he saw...I assumed that anyone could do the same.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

gww said:


> Mike j
> 
> 
> If they are like me they may not even own a camera and thier phone might be old and they might be too computer illiterate to do better.
> ...


Not a problem... I only own a flip phone - can't even get the pictures off on to the computer.
A possible solution for both the beesource file limits and for small pictures could be to take a few close ups as well so that the small pictures shows close details.

:gh:


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Phohiogy.....
I had the same type of robbing while feeding and also think that I got lucky but we will see. I reconize what you are saying and have posted a couple of times that I was sure the hive was dead due to it but I think they are still going. Mine were not full and some are small and I still expect some losses with this being part of the reasons. You will not be the only one this year.

Don't give up. If you can figure out the true cause (I lean towards what psm indicated) and maby adjust for that and if you can't you can at least add how the next one you get looks and grows and make comparisons.
Good luck
gww


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

*PohioGypsies* - 
I was not attacking you.... I was just taking the opportunity to point out it is a recurring situation of people wanting info yet the pics are too small.

No - I did not know beesource resized.
I tried to post a PDF a while back to help someone with a mite roll - and beesource kept rejecting it because of size... the limits are a bit unrealistic. I ended up having to convert it to a low grade jpg just to get beesource to accept it.

I am on low bandwidth myself - so small pics are nice for getting a gist, but not much for conveying details (unless they are closeups).





psm1212 said:


> ....
> In any event, it makes me depressed anytime I lose a hive. I take it as a personal failure, which is not a reasonable reaction, but just the way I take it.....


I take it as the "stupid bee's fault"  After all, if the bees can know we are going to have a hard winter, or they can know I'm the one always coming into the hive, or they can know (fill in the blank) - - - then it is THEIR fault they didn't see it coming!  lol


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

MikeJ said:


> Did I say to post it direct to beesource?? :scratch:


It doesn't matter where the image is hosted. The issue is not where the image is hosted - the issue is the size that is automatically displayed. 

For instance, it is possible to upload images to Photobucket or Flickr and have them automatically display in Beesource threads, but if one does do that, Beesource size limits need to be obeyed. For instance, default Photobucket display size is 1024x768 pixels, so that size is not permitted by Beesource rules. However, there is no technical mechanism that prevents such oversize images from being displayed within a thread.

.


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## PohioGypsies (Oct 18, 2017)

No worries. It?s the mobile site that does the resizing. I don?t know if that makes a difference or not. 
Whatever the reason for loosing the bees, we?re bummed and just hoping to learn what not to do next time.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Just wanted to point out that PohioGypsies' frame looked awfully similar to the ones I pulled out of my nuc that crashed this weekend. I think psm1212 has it exactly right. As far as the honey, as the bees got sick they stopped foraging and fed most of the honey to the brood they were trying to raise. Robbers would have torn open all the cells. Look at the pattern.

On a side note, mike you shouldn't get snippy with a moderator. Just saying. Could end up like poor 'ol Bill...


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Mike
I sometime read a whole interchange the next day and come do a differrent conclutions than my origional conclution was the first time I read it. Maby cause I was in a differrent mood or maby cause I just can't read (me not you). I remember rereading a couple of exchanges with me and you where I went back and had seen I may have missed part of the intent of what you were saying.
I do have to close my eyes and count to ten sometimes.
Cheers
gww


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

gww:
Maybe... I'll wait and see how this rolls out - but since only one is off topic so far????


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## PohioGypsies (Oct 18, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> As far as the honey, as the bees got sick they stopped foraging and fed most of the honey to the brood they were trying to raise.


Wow. That makes me so sad. Our poor bees. I'm pretty mad at myself for letting this happen. I really didn't think there were that many mites on that bottom board. I totally missed the boat and my bees suffered for it.

How do I clean the hive for a new colony? Do I just dust out the dead bees, seal it for winter and let a new colony get rid of any larvae that's left when we add them? 

I have two deep supers. I'd like to split them and make two hives. I liked the idea of leaving the honey for the next colony/colonies. Is there any reason that that is a bad idea? Do I treat the empty hive for mites? Is there a race of honeybees that are more resistant to mites?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> Do I treat the empty hive for mites? 

Any varroa mites remaining will die shortly after the bees die, so you don't have to do anything specific about that. However, there could be other pests harbored in comb, including small hive beetles and wax moths. Several days in a freezer would kill those pests, if you have temporary freezer space available. But freezing weather outdoors would also do the job, if your current weather is like that.

If you store them outdoors, screen off any openings that mice could use to enter. A light brush can remove general debris, and new bees in the spring will finish cleaning up the comb.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Well, based on my own experiences with EFB (European Foul Brood) this summer, before I would re-use the combs, I would very closely examine the brood areas for any signs of EFB among any still-visible dead larvae. 

Beekeeper re-use of comb, valuable resource that it undoubtedly can be, can be a prime vector for transferring, or re-igniting, an EFB infection in an otherwise clean colony.

If the OP does not feel she can confidently spot those signs (if they are present), then perhaps another more experienced beekeeper should be consulted to examine the combs. Or a comb could be selected and sent to Beltsville for examination.

EFB is much less common than PMS (parasitic mite syndrome) but it is not out of the question, either. 

While varroa will die along with their hosts and present no chance of re-infection if the comb is reused, I am not totally sure that some of the viral diseases that mites amplify, specifically DWV, may not persist on/in the combs, perhaps in pollen or honey stores. (And as noted above secondary pests of the combs, SHB and wax moths may persist as eggs or larvae on combs that re not frozen.)

Experienced beekeepers can reduce the chances of disease or pest transmission via re-used combs because they are more skilled in determining why the dead-out has occurred, which by itself can rule in or out a lot of potential issues. New beekeepers don't, yet, have those skills. 

So, to the OP: before you clean or brush off the combs, see if you can get some assistance from someone with more experience to help you look for signs of any diseases, or other problems. It's not a huge imposition on someone's time, so if you belong to a bee-club, I'd start there. You can also study pictures online or in books of diseased combs. 

It is most likely that you will not see any signs of diseases on the comb, but it should be ruled out before re-using them, nonetheless. 

And, next year there is one simple thing that you can do to reduce the chances of another mite-vectored hive loss: monitor your mite levels with a 72-hour sticky board count every week and do a sugar roll every single month from May to October. No, this will not prevent mites, but it is likely to prevent losses due to mites and the diseases they vector. Because regular monitoring will give you up to date status reports on your mite populations long before they become dangerous to your colony. And then you will have time to deal with them beforehand, in one way or another, according to your own approach to beekeeping.

It's a great pity that mite monitoring techniques are not the very first skill taught to new beekeepers. They are not advanced, or difficult, tasks and they are absolutely essential. I think they are the single-most important thing that a new beekeeper can do to increase their chance for becoming a successful beekeeper, right from their very first year. The often-repeated notion that new beekeepers can/should expect to lose colonies early on is a rationalization, in most cases, for otherwise-avoidable problems. 

I don't mean to sound harsh, or blaming. I don't think this is your fault. I think it is primarily the fault of what we teach, and how we talk/write about, how to become a successful beekeeper. It's long past time that we change that approach. Mites aren't a new problem, they are now likely in every colony in the US, managed or non-managed. So if you've got bees, then you've got a mite issue that needs to be addressed, in some way.

Note here: I am not saying how you_ choose_ to deal with them, just that they must be dealt with, somehow. 

Nancy


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

How do I clean the hive for a new colony? 
Start by cleaning out the bottom board of the hive. Then double wrap all the drawn frames in the syran wrap. Freeze these frames either in small or large batch in the freezer perferably overnight. Then take a thick cardboard box to put these frames inside. And finally seal the box with shipping tapes and stored them in a dry place around room temp. all winter long.

Do I just dust out the dead bees, seal it for winter and let a new colony get rid of any larvae that's left when we add them?
The dead cap broods will be clean up by the new bees when you add them again in the Spring time. The other frames like cap honey can be use by the bees also. So no need to worry about frames until then. Also, make sure that the boxes are dry and inside the garage for this winter.

Is there any reason that that is a bad idea? Nancy already addressed the issue of the bee diseases. I say watch out for AFB as it is more contageous. This is the draw back of not knowing exactly why the bees died in the first place. Perhaps it is robbing, mites or it might be the bee diseases. It is hard to tell simply by looking at them.

Is there a race of honeybees that are more resistant to mites? 
Yes, some will say that the mite biting/mauling bees will do. Some will
say that the vsh or allogrooming bees will help too. I say try to find a 
local beekeeper who is also treatment free to get the bees. Find out what
method is working for this local beekeeper. If you don't have the tf bees then
you have no choice but to treat. Starting a lifetime journey of being enslave to
the bees is no fun either. Sometimes I even sourced queen from out of state apiaries to
complement my tf (treatment free) bees too. I use a method of IPM without the chemicals involved.
So far it is work but you do need to work for it.


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## PohioGypsies (Oct 18, 2017)

Thank you all for the replies, ideas and advice. It is much appreciated! God bless!


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

I would suggest that you and other folks that have bees and are interested in improving their skills visit the Empire State Honey Producers site, look for the resources area. 

There is a great guide for varroa management from the Honeybee Health coalition and also a guide for wintering bees in the cold north. 
The wintering guide first 13 pages may not apply to your local area but starting about page 14 is a great step by step quite for analyzing a dead out that will help answer a lot of the "what happened" questions.


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