# Now I've REALLY done it... Will queen return?



## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Short version for those who don't appreciate my rambling:

If a queen takes flight over the roof and out of sight, what are her chances of returning?

Long story:

Two weeks ago I installed the pathetic remnants of two hives into one 24" box with a tight follower. I had planned on combining them, my new split queen deceased, there was a small queen cell but I didn't think much would come of it. Saw the new small virgin queen when I got into it so left them separate.

I've been telling myself that I've done plenty of damage this year already, just LEAVE IT! But no, it was nice sunny and calm today and I wanted to see what was up with the new little queen so I ignored the voice of reason. So I get into that side of the hive, removing bars to a separate empty box, and can't find her anywhere despite 5x going over all the bars. Small patch of drone brood, figure maybe a laying worker. Put all that back together. Figure she went a-mating and never returned or was weakly and didn't make it.

Get into the other side of the hive. No larvae, nuthin', very little stores, can't find that queen either. Removed deadies on the bottom one by one looking for her, all workers or small nurse bees...

I'm figuring it's all a complete loss anyway so what the heck...

So this is where I get xtra stupid and pull the follower, shuffling a few bars around. The next thing I know I see 2 bees kinda struggling on the bottom of the box, pull 'em out, it's the queens! Gads! Get 'em separated, new queen runs back into the hive, didn't look like she was able to score a hit, old queen in my hand, run into the house for a cage and get her into it after she falls into my bee bag. 

Okay, fine. I remove all the bars in the box, put 'em back on old queen's side after removing all bees, follower, then the little queen's bars...

The old queen looks fine in her cage, so I open it up to let her back in her side but she doesn't make a beeline for the entrance and to my utter astonishment takes flight, up up up and over the roof.

I consider suicide for a moment.

Will she come back or has she had quite enough of my meddling hospitality? Since she's used to being in the hive, can she navigate?


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## Cub Creek Bees (Feb 16, 2015)

So how did this pan out?


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

No clue. I haven't the heart to open it up again so soon and it would truly be a miracle if I have any bees in spring. Every day there are 60-70 bees at any given moment on the feeder. Perhaps the little virgin queen is growing her own drones and will be able to lay some fertile eggs. Perhaps the old queen came back into her side of the hive. Perhaps I will take a look in another few weeks.

As I received no replies on the return of the queen, I figure not, eh?


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Another few weeks? I have heard of queens returning, but, I don't think its the norm. Why on earth would you wait a few weeks. A newly hatched queen should be mated and laying in a week to 10 days. I think I would do a little investigation if I wanted a chance to save the hive. G


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

they will return if you stand still because they often times will orient on you like a peculiar tree next to her hive. Only problem is now if she does return and goes in the wrong side she might get balled and killed.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Apismellifera said:


> Perhaps the little virgin queen is growing her own drones and will be able to lay some fertile eggs.



wait....what? What do you mean by this? Do you understand how bees mate?


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but what could I DO? Haven't I done enough to f 'em up already? Bwahahahahaha.

They're going to do what they're going to do. I already varroa treated. I'm feeding.

The glimpse I had of the new (maybe 2 wks now) teeny queen as I separated them didn't appear as if she was mated. Very small patch of drone brood. There are so few bees it's hard to imagine they can pull it off, though I'm rootin' for 'em.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Do you have any other hives? She may have missed her window. What you could have done was combine with the proven queen and dispatched her if that was the case. Sometimes newly mated queens need a little time to get it right. In any case, not looking in the hive is in my opinion, a ridiculous approach. Do you have a flow-hive? G


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Don't want to pile on, but it sounds like it's time to reflect on how you got to this point so you don't repeat the same mistakes. Good luck and you are right, I don't think there is much more you can do.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Why, yes, I do believe I have an understanding of how the bees mate, but my hives had no drones when she hatched out so the drone situation seemed real iffy, and as I've said, she'd been hatched out a week or so when this drama played out and she was teensy and just didn't appear mated, no larger than she was at a day or two. That coupled with the bit of drone brood in her side... Of course we'd prefer they not mate with their own genetics but I guess they do what they gotta do.

Oh, also, I looked VERY closely at that bit of brood, there were multiple teensy larvae in some cells, though I couldn't see any eggs or larvae attached to the side of the cells even though I had the 20x loupe. Confusing - laying worker or what since I couldn't seem to find her? 

Oh, darlin', I've reflected. The root of the disaster was robbing, which led to me doing silly things to try and stop it and also save the weaker of the two hives with the old queen. I lost about 3 qts of bees from the stronger split hive for some reason I'm still not sure of, seemed as if they just freaked themselves to death when I had 'em closed up for a day and a half or so, they were completely frantic the whole time and continued to die in large numbers for the next week, to the point the hive was decimated. Then that queen died for unknown reasons a few weeks later, intact on the bottom of the hive with a few other bees mourning her little corpse. Leaving me with 2 hopelessly weak hives I'd intended to combine which is where this part of the story starts.

Next year I will start feeding much earlier to stave off robbing and avoid going into the hives in August-September. I will never again swap hive locations hoping to get foragers into a weak hive or confine them completely. In retrospect, had I done these things and done more earlier to balance the populations in both hives perhaps it would have gone differently.

Also I am quite clueless as to flows and what is around for the bees. I'm in a fairly sparsely populated area with no ag so it's hard to know what's really out there at any given time. These bees didn't build up much stores on their own last year or this, so maybe they were lagging or I'm in a bee desert. I have no room to plant enough of anything to make any difference though I just potted up a bunch of various sages and herbs for next year.

I got the flow hive joke. After watching some of their newer vids I have to wonder how many times you're gonna be able to turn that little crank to crack open the cells before everything gets hopelessly gummed up. Y'know how hellish it is to get wax off of plastic in tight spaces. Maybe heat the whole contraption? What a mess.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Well, better luck next year. I would be vigilant in my inspections until I had a good grasp on things. You mentioned bees dying when closed up. Closing bees up in the hot summer will cause that to happen. Maybe I misunderstood and you meant you put a robbing screen on. Anyway, I wish you the best of luck. G


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Thanks, graham. Robber screens did nothing for me, and when I shut the hives up I screened 'em for ventilation and it's quote cool here on the southern oregon coast, hive got only morning sun. Still, maybe there wasn't enough airflow.

I don't lag on inspections and probably would have been better served to have tampered less, not more, this year, because every time I cracked a hive or fed in or out, or did any freakin' thing it just set off the robbing afresh. Argh.

Nonetheless I take full responsibility for letting the bees down and will take my knocks. ;-) At least I learned on "free" bees. 

*sob* - almost ran up the coast 150mi to get a $100 cluster&[email protected]#ed nuke swarm trap from a guy 'cuz there's a hole in my black little heart knowing I probably will have to start all over in spring with another swarm since I'm too tight to buy package bees tho' I planned to get an old sol queen next year. Please ask the bee deities to bring me a swarm or two early next year, 'K?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Apismellifera said:


> Of course we'd prefer they not mate with their own genetics but I guess they do what they gotta do.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> That's what I thought you meant and that is why I asked if you understood how the process works. By the time that drone brood hatched and was viable, she would be long past her mating window. No way should could mate with her own drones brothers already on the wing maybe but even that typically isn't viable.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

You should call this a lesson, try to accept it as it is, and just see if they make it. As a cleaned dead-out, with all the dead bees removed, it is invaluable as a premade starter for a package. If they live, thats a bonus. Just because you CAN do a thing with your bees, doesnt mean you should. Don't use such invasive techniques of management, such as tearing into the hive to "queen hunt". Even cut outs need not be that invasive. The less disturbance, the better.I admire your willingness to get in there and do things. But... it may have got pushed a bit with this one.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Harley - thank you for that, I didn't know about the "window". Always willing to be educated, and I will follow up with more research on that topic which I haven't yet encountered in my 4+ years of heavy study. Can you point me to a good source?

Jade - if/when they cease to be there won't be but maybe a handful of bees to clean out, if any. My little voice was right when it told me to just leave 'em but but but... And that's why I'm probably not going in again this year though it's probably a dead issue anyway.

In my lust to come out of this season with 2 hives instead of one I blew it. I do have about 30 bars of comb, tho', my original 40" hive, 3 4' and 2 2' hives I built this year so I should be good to go.

Thanks, all, even tho' it doesn't change anything at this point it eases the pain to get your input and it always serves to expand my knowledge. I appreciate the support and advice.

I'm also geared up for cut outs now, built a beevac and will fab my own bee jacket/veil this winter since I haven't bee impressed with any of the commercial stuff I've seen, have the materials and pattern already. So that will expand my slim chances of getting more "free" locally acclimated girls. Can't wait to get an Old Sol queen to compare to the natives.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Apismellifera said:


> Can you point me to a good source?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Bee porn, love it! Thanks!


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