# Swarm - Help!



## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Hello and Happy Easter.

I was doing some yard work today when I noticed that one of my hives got "crazy".
While I was put hose on shower mode, the got more and more in the air.

I don't know if showering them did anything or not, but they started swarming and settled on the tree very close and not too high so I could rich them.

I did couple of shakes and broom them into the bucket. I was showering the swarm too, before and during shaking.
It looks I got the most of it.
I am not sure if queen is in the swarm or not.

This is my first spring with bees and first swarm, so I don't know much and strategies.
They are all in the bucket with screen.
Now what do I do?







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Swarm came out of left hive.
(top deeps were put about a month ago, I am not sure if there would be comb in them)

More pictures you can find here:
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-04-16/IMG_1855.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-04-16/IMG_1856.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-04-16/IMG_1857.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-04-16/IMG_1858.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-04-16/IMG_1859.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-04-16/IMG_1860.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-04-16/IMG_1861.JPG


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## NCbeek (Mar 23, 2011)

Well, you've got the queen confined to a single deep on the left and a double deep on the right. That might have had something to do with the swarm. The water did nothing to help you. May even end up killing some of the bees in the bucket. Use a mist of water to stop robbing. Won't do anything for a swarm. My advice is to take the bees in the bucket and put them into another hive box asap. Take that queen excluder off or move it up on top of the second deep. Unless you have a lot of comb drawn in the second deep. the top super(third deep) may be too much room. Use it for the new swarm. Whatever you do, get those bees out of that bucket before they drown.


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## dott (Aug 1, 2015)

Need to put them in a empty nuc or hive box asap, if you got any drawn frames add 1 or 2 of them in whatever box you use. Swarms are a wax making machine so fill up the rest of the box with undrawn frames.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I already drained the water out, so there is a little to non water in the bucket.
If "new" hive with "old" queen in 4ft away from "old" hive with "new" queen, will bees get confused where to go to?

How much time do I have before putting the swarm into the new box?
Can I do it tomorrow or day after tomorrow?


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## dott (Aug 1, 2015)

You may have a few drift back, I caught a swarm 1st of this Month place them about 10 ft of the hive they swarm from and on problems, I also put something in front of hive so they had to reorient.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

You probably have a little time but, I would do it as soon as possible. Why wait unless it is unavoidable for some reason. Give them a frame of brood from one of the other hives. It will help them stay in the hive you put them in. No need to worry about the queens or bees going back to the old hive. I'm satisfied a few foragers will eventually rejoin the original hive if left in the same yard but, it's not enough to worry about.

There's a couple things you should do with the hive that swarmed. First go through it and destroy all but, 2 or 3 swarm cells. Unless you want more bees if that's the case you can use each frame with a swarm cell and make more hives. If not destroying most of them will cut down on after swarms in a week or so as the virgins start to hatch out. The second thing you should do is write the date down on the calendar. There's not really any reason to open the brood nest back up on that hive for about 25-30 days. At that point you can go in a check for new eggs. If you don't see any at that point you will need to get a queen or give them more brood so they can try and raise a new queen. Don't panic until 25 to 30 days after the swarm that's why I say there is really no reason to even open it up because there is nothing you can do until the time period has passed. Now you should still add supers as needed. There's probalby lots of brood in the hive and they could still need room to store honey so keep an eye on that.


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## NCbeek (Mar 23, 2011)

Artur_M said:


> I already drained the water out, so there is a little to non water in the bucket.
> If "new" hive with "old" queen in 4ft away from "old" hive with "new" queen, will bees get confused where to go to?
> 
> How much time do I have before putting the swarm into the new box?
> Can I do it tomorrow or day after tomorrow?


You can wait if you want but sooner is better. You don't want them using up the nectar they gulped before leaving the old home. They won't get confused. I have split and put them side by side. If the bees are wet they will suffocate piled on top of each other. Buckets are fine to catch swarms in but an easier way would be to shake them right into the new hive. sweeping and rolling bees every which way has the potential to kill or hurt the queen.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I just sprayed a little sugar water on the screen so they can survive till next morning.
I hope they will.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Yes, an excluder over the single deep will make a lot of swarms if you don't manage that small of a brood nest right and often. You wrote the top deeps were put on a month ago and don't know if comb is in them. This time of year needs more inspection than that to prevent swarming. They can swarm in less than a week after the first queen cells get started. You should read up on swarm prep signs and prevention of it for the other hive. Also, that same colony can swarm again with after swarms in a bit over a week with a virgin queen. Take down all but maybe 2 good looking queen cells before that.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

So, ....
I was thinking that my top deep of swarmed hive would be empty and I will be able to use it as the brood nest for swarm, but it was heavy with lots of bees in it.
Can I leave those bees inside the box, or should I shake them into the original hive ?


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

The swarm left because it was crowded. If you put them back into the same amount of boxes you will have the same effect. The swarm needs it's own hive space.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

DanielD, I was asking different question: I was asking if I take the top deep of original hive, which had some bees in it, and turn it to the "new" hive brood-box (leaving the bees that are already-in in it, not to shake them down to the original hive).

I already bought and painting my new deep box and hope will be able to transfer the swarm to new home tonight.
So I leave my original hives as they are now.
I will have 3+3+1 hives tonight.

Thanks everyone for support - this is very stressful for new beekeeper.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Three more question here:

I should assume the old queen got out with the swarm, so there should not be any mated queen in the hive.
Is new queen already there or it will hatch any day soon?

For swarm: How soon can I find out if they have queen?
How can I be sure, if I dump the swarm into the hive, they will not run away?


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

A swarm generally has a queen with it, and all that's left in the hive are queen cells. The cells should start emerging somewhere around a week after the swarm. Then, it will take 1-3 weeks for the new queen to mate and start laying. If you didn't take out all but 2 queen cells, there could be an after swarm, or more, with a newly emerged virgin queen. 

You can't really be sure the swarm will stay in what you give them, but if you would put a frame with some open brood in the new box, that should keep them there.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

artur


> How can I be sure, if I dump the swarm into the hive, they will not run away?


I am no expert. I did dump two swarms into hives with in the day that I caught them. I put them in compleetly empty foundatioless frame boxes with no comb. I put two drops of lemon grass oil in the hive before dumping the bees in. My two did not leave.
I hope this helps.
gww


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I dump the bees in the bucket as in many videos "how to put package bees in hive".
It's a plastic foundation 10-frame deep.

I am not sure if:
1. I captured the queen during swarm capturing.
2. the queen didn't get injured during transferring bees to the new hive.

I also put top feeder with sugar syrup on top.
So ... hope I did things well and the swarm will survive and the old hive will successfully produce new queen.

Is it ok, if I can find the mated queen, to introduce new mated queen to old colony?
(I am not sure if local suppliers are selling mated queen these days)
(I wasn't happy with defensiveness of old colony anyway, but as you can tell, the old queen was such a producer and the hive is booming)


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

That is the problem too many bees with a prolific producer will overcrowd the hive really soon. To prevent an
after swarm since more than one QCs might be in there, I would do a thorough inspection. Two more after swarms will
depleted your bee resources soon. Better check!


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Arthur, if you add a queen and they already have one, they will kill the added one. You have to know it's queenless. It probably has a queen. Wait a week and see if there's eggs.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

DanielD,

For old (original hive): as it is in many literature and forum here, the original queen is leaving with swarm the original hive. I just don't know how soon new queen appears in the hive and how soon is she getting mated?

For swarm: when I caught the swarm, 1. I am not sure if in the crowd I also captured the queen, 2. I didn't damage the queen during the transition to new hive.

When the inspection of hives will show this?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Artur
For my hive that swarmed, On the origional hive, I am going that the new queen will be laying and I should have some evidence of that in 24 days when I inspect. For the caught swarm. You should have good evidence and maby even capped brood in ten days if the queen was not injured. I usually need either capped brood or larva that is pretty big for me to see them and so though I think it is about right on when I should see something. I will wait an extra week if I don't before I start to panic.

I hope this helps and though giving this advice, I am still a new bee keeper.
gww


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Arthur, the original hive can have a laying queen in 2-4 weeks depending on how developed the queen cells where and how quickly the new queen mates. I would still suggest you take out all but two queen cells to prevent after swarms, if you haven't already. You would need to be very careful with the two you leave, to not injure them. In a few more days, the cells could start to emerge by the end of the week, since we don't know developed they were at swarm time. Once they start to emerge, you need to stay out of the hive for at least 2 weeks, 3 if you can stand it, so you don't disturb the new queen and possibly cause a failure in the process. 

If you don't take out the extra queen cells there's a possibility of after swarms by the weekend into next week early. If that single deep below the excluder is still packed, they could do that an loose more bees. Watch for them if you don't take out cells. Up to you. After swarms will have one or more virgin queens in them, and they wouldn't start laying for 2 -4 weeks too. 

Like gww says, the bucket bees could be laying in a few days or a week. they could go sooner if you gave them drawn comb.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Maybe I am not right here, but I remember either read somewhere or saw somewhere that 1st hatched queen goes all over the hive and destroys the other queen cells to hope that she'll the only one, and if 2 or more queens hatch at the same time they they battle till one of them wins and survives.
So, even without my interaction, I hope there won't be any after-swarm.
In the original hive, I saw bees already working in the middle of top (3rd) supper and had drawn comb yesterday.

Today I checked the new hive visually - there was no flight yet (I hope soon I'll see some bees flying in and out), but saw hand-full of bees on the screened bottom board dead. I didn't give them any drawn comb, but gave them plastic foundation and sugar syrup.
Hope it will survive.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Arthur, many times that's what happens, the first queen can kill all the cells. If the colony determines more swarms are in order, the first virgin queens can swarm again too. It can go either way, but a crowded colony would lean towards more swarming in my estimation.

If you don't plan to manage the hives with the exculders on, or don't know how yet, you may be better off eliminating them and let the hives grow as they wish with more brood area. Your single deep could swarm often without the right intervention. single deeps are used that way by some keeps, but closer management is needed.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Reading through this tread, it sounds like you don't have enough equipment ready, Arthur. You will need more boxes than you currently have as they start to build up during the flow. You cannot expect that they will not swarm if you keep them in only two boxes. 

It sounded like you had to assemble and paint a box for this swarm you caught... you should be assembling and painting more right now if you don't want to have another panicked situation.

Edit: I see from the picture you have three boxes... I stand by what I said. You can't expect they will stay in 3 boxes. Make more now.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Thanks for advises, I really appreciate them.
Yes, I am short on equipment - I started last July and buy as I need. I don't have much space to keep extra stuff.

DanielD, do you think if I move excluder between 2nd and 3rd boxes, I'll prevent after-swarm?

As I am looking through the pictures and videos, beekeepers are usually have double-deep hives: broodiest + supper.
I thought I have enough space for bees.
I put excluder between 1st and second boxes to keep the broodiest in bottom box and have honey production in top 2 boxes and never thought that 3rd box might get drawn this fast and even used at all.
As I pulled it up, it was already heavy and noticed that middle 1-2 frames were already drawn (didn't check how much they are filled up)


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Arthur, I would eliminate the excluder until you understand it's usefulness and how to manage the hive with one, especially a single deep. Removing the excluder may help reduce an after swarm, but do it asap. There are many opinions, so it's up to you, but 2 deeps is the space generally needed for the brood nest. You can get the same space in 3 mediums which I have done before this year. Limiting the brood nest below what it can utilize will result in several swarms through the year. After those 2 deeps, or 3 mediums for brood, you need extra storage space, which will be harvest potential honey after the main flow. I have an average of 3 mediums, after the brood area, available for possible harvest honey in case it's a banner year. That would be 2 deeps and 3 mediums per colony. You wouldn't need that many supers, at least 2, but you may have to extract and replace them if it's a good honey year. I don't know your potential where you are. I have seen enough honey harvest here that would fill 3 mediums. I would get more boxes as McBean wrote, but I understand the lack of storage space. I don't have that issue here. You can build up extra and sell things, honey and/or bees if you don't have the room. 

Regarding your other hive, if it's going strong like the first one, it may be a week or two behind the other one regarding swarming. There's a lot to learn and understand about swarm signs, swarm prep, then wintering, and on and on. Bees take a lot of info and learning experience.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Ok ...

If my "original" hive is crowded (maybe yet), can I take some bees and shake them into the "new" hive instead of doing "newspaper" join?


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Artur_M said:


> Ok ...
> 
> If my "original" hive is crowded (maybe yet), can I take some bees and shake them into the "new" hive instead of doing "newspaper" join?


If you have done a thorough inspection, and there are no queen cells or cups with eggs, then just put another box on top.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Artur, right now you need to leave everything as it is, except for removing the excluder. The colony can't be disturbed during re queening or it can fail. The original hive will take till early next week to have a queen emerge, then 1-3 weeks before it starts laying, then 3 more week before first brood emerges, so it's population will be reduced a lot by then, and then stay steady for a while. In 5 weeks a lot of foragers will die off, then continue to while new brood emerges. It may even fail to re queen, then you'd need to combine the swarm back to salvage them. 

If you don't want more bees and more boxes, after everything is settled, you won't have a hard time finding someone to buy your swarm hive as a nuc. Then you can buy more wood, or just trade the swarm for wood.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Thank you, DanielD.

I believe this is becoming a good thread for someone who will be dealing with this kind of situation in the future.

I just was wondering: I haven't done any varroa mite treatment this year yet - when is the time to do the treatment?
Will treating or not treating hurt "queen producing" process?

In case that queen doesn't emerge well, I can get a queen from local supplier.
They are saying that queens will be available mid-may - I didn't ask if one is available now.
If one is available today - is it a good idea to get it and introduce to old hive?


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

You're welcome Artur. I hope it's useful to someone. I don't know what your mite treatments have been in the past, or what you intend this year. One thing about swarming is a brood break, which can reduce the varroa pressure, but it's smarter to do mite checks first to see if it's needed or not. There are enough threads regarding mite checks, so I don't want to type out another one, especially with my lack of experience. If you just treat at certain intervals, like spring and fall, the swarm hive would be in a good position to be treated since it's without capped brood. OAV would be good at that time. One treatment even would get a good portion of them. 

With the requeening hive, I would wait till it has eggs laid, then treat before capped brood with OAV. I am not the best source of mite treatments info, and have only used OAV last fall after I saw some at slight risk numbers with alcohol wash. 

Buying a queen or waiting is your call. Personally, at this time of year, I would let them re queen. Swarm cells are good cells for queen production, and you have a strong enough hive, maybe good to have more of the same. If you introduced one, you'd have to get rid of all the queen cells and emerged virgin queens, etc.before you can intro it. Then you'd have to be concerned with acceptance of the queen, and if it's viable. If you wanted more colonies yet, you can further split the original hive and let a couple queen rearing attempts happen. Then you'd increase the odds of a good queen, maybe more. Every split would need a couple cells in it. You could make it into more than 2 if you have enough bees and boxes. You are running short of time before emerging virgin queens though. Emerging could happen by the weekend.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

DanielD,
As you were expecting, my 2nd hive swarmed today  but I was successful to get it again. Now they are in a bucket 

It looks my swarm-hive (1st swarm from 1st hive) is not doing well - I opened it today and noticed no comb, nothing - just hand full of bees rumbling around together.
Is it ok if I dump new caught swarm to the same place leaving those hand full of bees in it?

It looks my 1st hive was doing "after swarm" today: id did look like that (2 hours apart), and they got hanged under their original hive. 
After cleaning what hanged underneath of the hive, the rest of the bees decided to go back to their home. What was that?


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

The 1st swarm sounds like it absconded from the box. I would use it for your new swarm. I don't know if I would worry about the handful of bees, but I would shake them out a few feet away right before you put the new swarm inside. I would also add a frame of brood, since you have crowded hives, to anchor the swarm in the hive and get them started. 

The first hive 'swarm' that went back could be a practice session for tomorrow. It would be a good idea to go into the second colony and get rid of extra swarm cells. Be gentle with the frames, and they shouldn't emerge for a week or so, so you don't have to do that right now.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I think what happened to the 1st swarm / 1st hive - the bees from swarm flew back to their original hive and that's why it got crowded again and decided to do so swarming flight. (this can be just unexperienced beekeeper opinion).

Since both hives are in after swarm condition, is it a good idea to go in and mess-up the hive to take the frame of brood from them?

I can dump the 2nd swarm into the box and see what's happening - hope they'll do ok.

As a new beekeeper I know I'll do some mistakes, but don't want to do too many.
I don't want to create inhabitable conditions for my neighbors also


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

The first hive can get crowded back up fast with brood emerging after the swarm left. I don't know that a swarm would go back to the original hive after a few days being gone, but not sure about that. Since you don't know what's up in the first hive, let it play out I guess. 

The second hive will have queen cells for a few more days. You should just go in and destroy all but 2 cells, and be careful with the cells you keep. Treat them as fragile and keep them upright without jarring them. The darker the cells, the older the cell and the sooner the queen will emerge and get mated. You don't have to take a frame of brood for the swarm. It just helps lock them in the hive.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Thank you DanielD.

I opened the "swarm-hive" this morning and there were about orange size crowd of bees which through this time didn't built anything.
I went through the cloud and didn't see any queen (my original queens were marked) - I was suspecting that the 1st swarm queen either didn't make it or died during the transition.
So there was no reason, I guess, to give those bees a chance.
I remove them and shook them, as you suggested, few feet away (but it looked that later they came back to the "swarm-hive" their new home), replace the entrance location and dumped the new (2nd) swarm into the hive, which bees started flying around immediately, but instead of waiting for them to suck-in to the hive, I put my sugar-block shim and closed the hive as quick as possible.

I don't know if this triggered some bees to go back home or not, but lots of bees appeared infant of their original hive and they were kind of triggered.

I really appreciate your suggestion to go into the hive and destroy the queen cells to leave only 2 there, but since I am not that experienced, I am hesitating to do that.
I think the situation now is very sensitive for both hives and little mess can create big trouble.
Maybe I am moving too secure way.
I also found this booklet to read: www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Swarm-Control-Wally-Shaw.pdf
It looks I have to rearrange my boxes to put the "new" boxes underneath, but waiting till all this swarm/queen story ends then do something.

I would let the swarms go, but don't want them to end-up in my neighbors properties and bug them.
I also didn't collect any honey last year since I just started and want to collect at least some this year


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Again 

The 1st hive did swarm again today and this time didn't come back  Some of them did and some of them didn't 
This is really frustrating cause they go and settle on neighbors tree, and this time they settle on nasty neighbors tree and very high so it was not so possible to reach them  I hope they will not bother neighbors around later on.

I don't like the genetics of this hive much - they are too defensive. 
How can I make sure they will NOT produce any queen later on? Destroy all the queen cells?

I really want to re-queen this hive.

Thanks for all the help and support.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Artur, your second hive swarmed, so there are extra queen cells in it right now, but only for the next day or two. You could take one or two of them to put in the first hive, but the problem is, you'd have to eliminate the virgin queen that's probably in there right now. Virgin queens can be hard to find though. You can purchase a new queen, but same problem, you'd have to eliminate the current virgin queen. The first hive surely has all the queen cells emerged by now, or close to it. 

The new queen that ends up in the first hive could calm the bees down too, but that will take 4-8 weeks when the current bees are all died off. Same with a purchased queen. 

I would let them go for a while if I were you, since you may not feel comfortable finding the virgin queen. Right now, till all the dust is settled, there could be more than one virgin in there and make it harder still. Have they been defensive just lately? They could be defensive because of swarming, or being overcrowded, who knows. Once the new queen is laying for a couple months, see how they behave. It would be easier to find the old queen to eliminate after it's laying.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

They were defensive since after a month I got them (I got 2 nucs in July 2016), so it was always hard to work with them.

The 2nd hive was a better choice, they were ok when I was doing things "right".

So, 1st hive has a virgin queen in it now? If that's the case, I am sure it will be hard to find her.
Also, the 1st hive might have _multiple_ virgin queens in it? shouldn't they fight to make sure there is only 1 queen in the hive?
How many after-swarms should I expect?


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

The colony will get itself to one virgin, generally, but you don't know where they are at in that process. And, yes, there's always another swarm possibility, but it surely is diminished by now. Since you're not comfortable doing manipulations, it's probably best to let it play out now. If you had the resources, you could pull some frames for a nuc out of the first hive, but in a cell from the second, and then have one more opportunity to mate a queen. You could then get rid of the queen in the original hive if it's still aggressive, and combine them. But, you'd need to know where the virgin queen is. You could split the remaining colony in two, and just add a cell in each to cover all the possibilities. 

I would really consider reducing the cells in the second hive if you can. You just take one outer frame out, set it aside for more room, then one frame at a time, look for swarm cells. the bees can hide them if they are thick on the comb. blow or brush them away. One of the first frames you find cells on, eliminate all but one, then put that frame gently back. Now you'd know you have one cell safe, so go through the rest and leave another in the next box. Keep the best looking cells, not ones that are short and punny, or damaged by moving them. If you keep after swarms away, the second box may store some honey for you. 

A big question Artur, would be where do you want to be in keeping? Do you want more hives, only 2-3, etc?


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I really want to stick with 2 hives.
I leave in residential area, so bringing wild life here that will cause troubles is not a right thing to do.

Hopefully I'll see no more swarms this year.
For next year, should I consider getting some bees out from my hives to open space for new bees?
I probably can make nucs out of the hives and either sell them of donate them. Will it prevent swarming?


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Making nucs can prevent swarming if timed right, but it also can mean preventing good honey production. Better still would be to learn how to read the colony and what they are up to, which means regular inspections this time of year. There are signs of swarm prep and preventative manipulations to cause them to abandon the idea, at least for a while. The goal of the colony this time of year is a reproductive swarm. If they reach a point that they sense they are able to successfully swarm, they will go for it. You have to keep them convinced they are not ready for it. There are many things written on swarm prevention, a lot of good things here on beesource. Read all you can about it.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I was curios about Taranov method, but was thinking that 1 year old queen doesn't swarm - maybe was wrong since the queens wee producing good amount of bees.
Maybe I'll do it next year, although the queens will be 1 year old.

For now, probably the best would be to sit and hope there will be no more swarms, but I am really thinking to give my 1st colony a new gentle queen. I'll look at their behavior in 4-8 weeks, cause new queen might bring new behavior into the hive.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Hello again.

I notice this picture today 







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that some of them are hanging down the hive.
They were doing that when 2nd swarm happened with that hive - some of them came back and hanged the same way.

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think they would swarm in 3 days again and todays days is not that pleasant - we are expecting storm at evening.
Should I expect another swarm ? 
That hive, after 2 swarm, still has too many bees - the traffic at the entrance is high.

If I get into that hive to rearrange boxes (I want to put new box from top to bottom), what is the worse can happen?


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Artur, it looks like you still have the excluder on both hives. Just taking off the excluder will give the brood nest a lot more room. One thing about after swarms and queen cells. The cells are made on various days, where they can emerge over several days. After swarms can be more than one, especially crowded hives, I would assume. The after swarms can be as virgins emerge and strengthen for a swarm. That's the down side to not managing the cells after a swarm. You can get several. So, yeah, they could swarm again.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

If I get into the hive tomorrow to remove the excluder, rearrange the boxes and remove all the queen cells:
1. will I reduce possibility of future swarm?
2. when (if there is a chance) will I know that hive is not producing new queen so I re-queen it?


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

What have I done today:

1. I went to my 1st hive, went into the 2nd (middle) box and destroyed all the queen cells. Some of them had pupa that was about to born, so it was their birth day today (not all of them) in the bucket that I use for collecting burr comb. For some reason decided to rearrange the boxes, so switched the places of 1st (bottom) and 3rd (top) boxes. The queen cells some how were in the middle of 2nd (middle) box. Put everything back and closed the hive.

2. Checked my swarm hive. Things were bad there. They didn't survive well. Almost all dead except hand-full of bees (200-300). They were building comb and producing honey, so I decided to give them a chance. I cleaned the dead bees from the hive.

3. I went to my 2nd hive and went through the 2nd (middle) box. Found lots of queen cells and cut them all off and put them into the bucket.
Put everything back and closed the hive.

The birth of new queens were happening in the bucket. I was supplying queens to the hives through the front entrance. I supplied 2-3 queens into each hive (including the swarm hive). One of the queens was rejected right at the door by guard bees, so I suppled it to other hive and they accepted it.
The swarm hive and no chance to accept or not a new queen.

To my knowledge the queens, if they don't belong to the hive the bees will kill it, and the strongest queen will kill the others.
Hope no more swarm and the new queen will mate anytime soon so they start their spring cycle.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

When you got rid of the queen cells in the 2nd hive, did you leave one or two for it to end up with a queen? Yeah, this was the week your queens were going to emerge. If a colony was queenless, they may accept a new virgin queen, but if they were queen right, they'd kill the intruder. It might not have been the best idea to just start shoving virgin queens into all the colonies.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Artur,

Did you take the excluders off?


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Well, I went through only one chamber of the hive and if there are more queen cells in the hive, I don't know about that.

Yes, I took the excluders off, cause they were making no sense for now as I was going through the hive. In 1st hive the QCs were above the excluder - how that could be? The old queen went through the excluder and lie the eggs in there anyway? Hmm. This is the inexperience sign.

So my logic when I was suppling hives with queens from bucket was:
1. if the queen doesn't belong to the hive - the bees will kill it.
2. if the queen belongs to the hive - bees will accept it.
3 if there is more than 1 bee-accepted queen in the hive - the strongest queen will kill the other week queens.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

I think/hope (maybe am sure) that I supplied at least one correct queen into each hive.

When I was supplying the queens, one of the queens was rejected right at the door. The guard bees started attacking her, so I took it away and the other hive bees accepted it. I hope this wasn't my feeling and I am not making this up.

How soon can I checked the hives and what should I see?
Can I do external evaluation of hives? When and what should I see?

I appreciate your help.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Queen cells above the excluder would mean the queen, or a queen, was above it. Without seeing everything it would be hard to tell what's up there. Were there cells below the excluder too? 

Only taking the cells out of the top deep on the second hive should leave cells in the bottom deep. Of course, there could already have been a virgin in there if you took the cells as they were emerging. And, I am assuming you let a new virgin back in from the bucket. 

Your virgin queen dispersal generally could work that way, but it's kind of haphazard and leaves a room for possible problems. Say there's a queen farther along in the mating process, etc, and the new virgin gets in and takes out the queen. Start over. 

A new emerged virgin queen can take from 1 to 3 weeks to get mated and start laying. Since you don't know any timeline now, start at this new virgin date and wait 3 weeks before you do anything. Disturbing the mating/laying process can disrupt it and cause a failure. I would suggest staying out till then and see what happens. You could have at least 2 colonies remaining after all the dust is settled.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

DanielD said:


> Queen cells above the excluder would mean the queen, or a queen, was above it. Without seeing everything it would be hard to tell what's up there. Were there cells below the excluder too?


I agree that queen some how managed to get above excluder and lay eggs in queen cells. How did she do it? I am not sure about that.
I didn't check any other box. Maybe there are more cells. I believe I remove about 10 from each hive. Then some of queens were getting born in the bucket, so I send some of them back (don't remember exactly 2 or 3 into, but definitely more than 1)



DanielD said:


> Only taking the cells out of the top deep on the second hive should leave cells in the bottom deep. Of course, there could already have been a virgin in there if you took the cells as they were emerging. And, I am assuming you let a new virgin back in from the bucket.


I let 2 or 3 into each hive, including the swarm hive.
When I was giving the bees one of the queens, the guard bees at the door started attacking her, so I figured out that queen doesn't belong to that hive and she went to other hive, but the attacking bees accepted another queen from the same bucket 



DanielD said:


> Your virgin queen dispersal generally could work that way, but it's kind of haphazard and leaves a room for possible problems. Say there's a queen farther along in the mating process, etc, and the new virgin gets in and takes out the queen. Start over.


Todays day wasn't comfortable for flying: it was cloudily and bit cold (about 60F) when I was working with hives in the morning. There was no flying bee before I opened the hive.



DanielD said:


> A new emerged virgin queen can take from 1 to 3 weeks to get mated and start laying. Since you don't know any timeline now, start at this new virgin date and wait 3 weeks before you do anything. Disturbing the mating/laying process can disrupt it and cause a failure. I would suggest staying out till then and see what happens. You could have at least 2 colonies remaining after all the dust is settled.


Well, I am trying to stay away and just observe. The only concern I have at the moment that they swarm again and end-up in neighbors yard.
Is there anything I can observe externally for bees behavior to figure out what are they doing and if I need to intervene?

Thanks!!!

PS: there were 2 full and heavy frames of honey in each hive (maybe more).


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Just want to update:

The 1st hive, which swarmed twice, is very active compare to hive #2, which swarmed only once yet, and swarm hive is inactive at all today.

It is relatively cold (barely 60F) and rainy, so not the best day for flying, but hive #1 is doing it's regular business, when the other hive is just taking its time.

Is it possible that 1st hive might swarm again, since it is pretty strong?
1st hive bees are bringing good amount of pollen compare to other hive - should I assume that 1st hive bringing pollen to feed/rase the brood?

Thanks


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Artur, I haven't been able to kept up understanding all that has gone on with your hives. Your first post of a swarm was the 1st hive, and that hive should have had emerged queens, which prompted the second swarm, and now it should be getting close to a laying queen, if it's been successful. Unless the virgin queen you put in the entrance caused a ruckus. I don't think it would be swarming again, but who knows? If this hive is the same one as you are saying bringing in pollen, they could be working on brood or getting ready for it. 

Are there any bees in the inactive swarm hive? They can abscond if they don't like what's given them.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I checked my hives today at about 3PM. It looked they are doing well or at least they were acting normal to me, but still the 1st hive has more activity than 2nd hive



















It's probably an inpatient and excited nee beekeeper asking, but when and how preferably externally can I find out if queen got mated and, I assume this should be done internally, when should I check for eggs/larvae ?

I was thinking that weather is not favorable for mating flight, but bees are flying with no problem, unless it rains hard - it's a little cold here though.

The swarm hive is doing ok - there are some activities: "some" cause there are way less bees than in the original hives. It looks they will survive.

You understood correctly: after cutting the queen cells and putting them in the bucket, some of the queen hatch in the bucket, so I let them back through the entrance into the hives. One of the queens was rejected by guards at the entrance, so I let it in to the other hive and those guards accepted her. It's hard to say if "correct" queens got into their "correct" hive, but each hive including swarm hive got 2-3 queen in, so I hope they will shape-up soon.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I checked my hives today, found no queens  no larvae and no eggs  but lots of honey and some pollen.
Lots of drones in both hives 

Hive #2 had some larvae and caped brood, but looked like drone cells - I felt like they were a little popped-up. I saw that on 2 center frames of bottom box. (maybe I missed the queen here and maybe they were workers larvae). When I moved 2 top boxes away to check the bottom box, the top boxes became noisy - so there is a chance that there is a queen in hive #2.

Hive #1 made no difference when I moved boxes.

I believe I need to find queen to give the hives queens.
One of the queen sellers, who didn't have queens for sale at the moment, said that _they might not accept_ new queen.
How can I be sure that hive is accepting new queen?


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

If you see drone brood alone, you probably have laying workers or drone laying queen. They think they are queen right, so just putting in a queen won't work. If it's laying worker, there are plenty of threads explaining all the different opinions and options. Drone laying queen, less likely, but the queen has to be found and eliminated. 

One other possibility is that drones are the last to emerge after all the workers are emerged. If your swarms in those hives happened less than 24 days ago, the drones could be left overs. If they are in worker cells and spotty all over, laying worker is the bet.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Hive #1 : didn't see any egg/larvae, just honey, some pollen and empty cells. When was going through and put top boxes away, noise didn't change at all.

Hive #2 : had some larvae, didn't see eggs (they could be there), honey and pollen was there too. When 1st top box put away, no noise change, when middle box put on 1st top box, 2 top boxes started buzzing loudly. Larvae was in the bottom box. I am not sure if they were drone's cells though - were just a bit popped-up, could be worker's cells though.

Aren't drone cells about 1/8"-1/4" popped-up? (I want to keep hope that there is a mated queen in that hive.)

Thanks for the tip: I didn't think that drones emerged the last and that's why there might appear more drones than usual.

I'll try to go through the Hive #2 in few days, especially bottom box, to see if more larvae appeared there, if so, I'll swap few frames between Hive #1 and #2.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Is it possible that the queen in Hive #2 is just started laying and the queen in Hive #1 either missing or didn't start laying yet?


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Update Hive #1:

I am just back from the inspection of Hive #1.
I went through all 30 frames carefully and noticed honey and pollen, and on one of the frames noticed something like bulged comb with eggs in cells: some cells had 2 and 3 eggs, so to my understanding some laying worker just started to lay eggs.

I removed that frame with bees on and put into the "swarm hive" where there are not so many bees (surviving ok) and put one empty frame with foundation on side of the Hive #1.

Here are pictures of that frame:






,






,






,








Here are links to higher resolution pictures:
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1895.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1896.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1897.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1898.JPG

I'll go back to check Hive #2 soon.
Thanks for all the help and support


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

It does seem you have laying workers there. A laying worker hive acts like it's queen right, and rejects introduced queens. I am hoping you don't have an issue by placing that frame with laying workers in another hive. Was the swarm hive queen right? If so, I hope the laying worker frame didn't reject the queen it may have had and kill it. 

One thing Artur, I don't plan on being rude or offensive, but you seem to be doing some manipulations without knowing if it's a good thing or not to do. Laying workers have the potential to be a problem in other hives if they are shook out in front, or combined, etc. One frame may not be an issue, but there's a possibility of it. It's not a bad thing to add a frame of brood and nurse bees directly into another colony, but from a laying worker colony may not be as safe as that. It could be somewhat like adding a frame to another hive with the queen on it. They think they are queen right. You say your swarm hive has not so many bees, can they subdue the laying workers frame of bees is the question now. I can't keep track of which one is the swarm hive and it's status.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Update Hive #2

So far I went through top box and half of the middle box:
Top box had nothing in it but honey, and bees of course.
In the middle of middle box I found some larvae and caped brood, but I am not sure if they are drone brood or worker.

Here are some pictures:







,






,






,






,








More pictures are here:

http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1899.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1900.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1901.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1902.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1903.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1904.JPG
Another frame:
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1905.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1906.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1907.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1908.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1909.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1910.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2017-05-31/IMG_1911.JPG

Looks like worker brood, but I am not sure


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

DanielD,
1st I am very thankful for all of your replies, and "yes" - I am unexpressed, so If I do something wrong ... bad.

The swarm hive doesn't have queen and they are producing drones too, so if there are 2 laying workers in the hive ... it's an experiment.
Basically that swarm hive has no value to me - I can shake them out and just keep an empty box, but decided to give them a chance to see what they will do.

I posted an update about Hive #2.
I'll appreciate your opinion about that hive.

Thanks again and I am not offended if I do something wrong and someone with more experience point it out.

PS: As a new beekeeper I wasn't ready for dealing with swarm and swarmed hive. I thought that 1 year old hive will not swarm, but they did


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Number 2 hive looks queen right. You have some capped worker brood and single eggs in cells, etc.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Here's the easiest way to suppress laying workers I have read about. 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?330787-Laying-Worker-Easy-Fix

You can do this with your #2 queen right colony, and when the laying workers stop, you can combine them.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Thank you, DanielD

I stoped inspection when I saw those eggs/larvae/caped brood in Hive #2.
I saw something similar last week, but it was smaller area (I am sure the bottom box is filled with the same).
Do you think I need to continue the inspection to the bottom box or at this point one can say that "the hive is doing ok" ?

Should I try to put few frames with those eggs/larvae into the Hive #1or get new mated/laying queen?

"Swarm hive" is not interesting - there are few bees and trying to survive, so just disregard it. Putting frame with drone brood in it with or without bees doesn't make much difference. I just hope I removed the laying worker from hive #1.

Thanks again


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

DanielD said:


> Here's the easiest way to suppress laying workers I have read about.
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?330787-Laying-Worker-Easy-Fix
> 
> You can do this with your #2 queen right colony, and when the laying workers stop, you can combine them.



Thanks!!!

I am thinking if I get a new queen, can I 
1. shake the bees from bottom box out to have bee-less frames
2. put caged queen in that box
3. put newspaper on top of bottom box
4. put the top boxes back (on the newspaper)

Do you think this is a good idea?

Thanks


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

No, that won't accomplish anything. It takes a few weeks to suppress laying workers so they'd combine with a queen right colony. I wouldn't buy a queen for them because they won't accept it till they stop laying. A queen won't suppress them like that, it takes open brood for a few weeks to do it. Again, if you want to use the bees, you can put both the laying worker hives together, compacted in few boxes as needed, put a screen on top of the laying worker hive, and put the queen right hive on top of the screen. They must be separate colonies with separate entrances on opposite sides of the hive. After 2-3 weeks, check and if the laying workers have stopped, no eggs or larva, then you can combine them.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Hi DanielD,

Here are todays news:


Artur_M said:


> Thanks FlowerPlanter!
> Good thread and useful info.
> 
> I would like to express my gratitude to razoo (her nickname here) for the frame of brood with queen and bees.
> ...


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