# Thymol



## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

Where should I buy Thymol for the fogger? I have seen links here before. Someone please help me.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello Trevor.
I obtain thymol from Spain because of its high grade of purity. I will be traveling to Spain shortly. Would you wish me to bring some back for you?
Please call me at 757-486-1573.
Best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Knoefler (Jan 20, 2005)

Trevor: we bought a fogger at Menards a large building supply store. we paid $145.00 maby you have a home depot in Florida. We tried Thymal it is not to good


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

$145? Yeow! For a Burgess?

I paid $52.00 at a long-established, local hardware/farm supply store called Buchheits. They were $72 at Lowes.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks from a frigid, very cold, brrrr, Spain. I finally arrived here and will remain here for a short while until the weather claers up for me to tend to my bees. Will travel back to the USA shortly thereafter. Please do not hesitate to contact me at my e'mail address.
[email protected],net
Have a wonderful day and God bless.
Dr Rodriguez


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

If someone paid $145.00 I would take it back and ask why the price in Menards near me was $47.77 I hope that is a typo!!


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## GreenMountainRose (Sep 6, 2004)

I found this source of thymol (although I am not planning on purchasing at this time):

http://www.everydayhenna.com/thymol.html


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## Walt McBride (Apr 4, 2004)

I bought a kilo from Every Day Henna with shipping it ran about $63. 

Knoefler, do you have relatives in southern California that operate bees?
Walt


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## SageBrush (Jun 18, 2004)

Can some one direct me to the most popular FGMO/THYMOL mixing instructions please? I want to start using it this year.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
Back home in Virginia somewhat recovered from my bout with pnemonia. Hopefully the more benign Virginia weather and moderate yard work will contribute to a full recovery.
I did bring home genuine pure granular thymol. I would like to stress once more the importance of utilizing pure thymol. Unrefined thymol may have unwanted side effects on your queens. Also, please adhere closely to mixing instructions to prevent queen deaths and obstruction of your foggers, conditions that are being reported by unfortunate users. I have photographs of a commercial FGMO preparation (to be publshied in the near future) showing separation of ingredients added to FGMO. This is clear evidence of the need for using pure ingredients and for utilizing proper procedures. 
Mixing instructions have been publised in ABJ and in my articles posted in beesource.com 
My computer crashed (lightning strike on street utility post!)hence I am unable to send copies of instructions via e-mail. I am having trouble with my new equipment preventing me from forwarding material. Could someone guide me to regain the ability to forward material (like scanning, mail, articles, etc.) Your help will be gretly appreciated. 
Best regards and God bless
Dr. Rodriguez


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## HennaJoy (Mar 5, 2004)

Yes, we do offer Thymol at EveryDay Mehndi. Our Thymol is indeed of the highest quality and purity to meet your needs.

EveryDay Mehndi
for Thymol...


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Caution!
You only get what you pay for.


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## daniel G. (Feb 24, 2005)

Dr. Pedro

Would it possible to obtain Thymol from you and at what price? I would also like to know when using thymol in the emulsion on the cords if you put the cording right on top of the frames. I have heard of thymol actually taking paint off of picture frames when used for insect control. Do you have any problems with this? Dan.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Dear Dan and others.
I have been constantly warning about the need to obtain pure quality thymol. Reading information posted here and that provided to me at my personal e-mail address, I have surmised that some of you may be purchasing thymol with unwanted residues. One of you wrote telling me that he was weighing thymol on his wife's scales and that the thymol "eroded" (eaten away) the surface of the scales. That could be due to residues since pure thymol is not harmful to delicate surfaces. Pure thymol is gentle and non corrosive. One of the uses of thymol is for mouth wash (Listerine). If thymol is used for mouth washing it must be gentle to the surface. I can imagine very few other surfaces that are as sensitive as the oral mucosa. 
So again, a word to the wise, be selective as to your sources of the thymol that you obtain. There are unnecessary risks that need not be taken since you not only risk losing your investment but also you could harm your bees.
I am advising people to write to me at my e-mail address 
[email protected] 
or to call me at 757-486-1573
regarding availability of thymol. I did bring a limited amount of pure quality thymol for my research and some extra to share with those who may wish to obtain some. Please call or write me for reservations. 
Also, please consider that I always include instructions with shipments on how to mix FGMO with thymol for both the fogger and the cords in an effort to dismiss errors in making and applying the finished product. 
Best wishes and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## daniel G. (Feb 24, 2005)

Dr. Pedro,

I sent you an email about buying some thymol from you, please let me know if you received it. Dan


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello Daniel.
My e-mail box became full and collapsed while I was ill. As I understand from many people some of the mail was lost. Yours might be one of those. Please write to me again or call me (757-486-1573) so that we can get together about sending you thymol.
Sorry about the delay, but we can get it corrected real soon. 
Very best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello Trevor. 
I am still waiting to hear about you to see if you want thymol. Pleae let me know via forum, e-mail or phone 757-486-1573.
Best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## RaytownDave (Mar 28, 2005)

thymol = tee tree oil right?


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## Stanghellini (Jan 16, 2005)

I feel compelled to comment on the statement above, "Pure thymol is gentle and non corrosive."

This is NOT TRUE. Thymol is CORROSIVE - at least in pure form, which is being suggested as the only material to use because of "residues" (impurities) in thymol from most commercial (e.g., herbal shops) venues.

In my opinion: To say that pure thymol is "gentle and non corrosive" is completely inappropriate. Moreover, to qualify thymol's harmlessness by mentioning that it is in mouthwash is VERY misleading. The thymol concentration in Listerine is only 0.064%! 

This mouthwash connection to safety is absurd, considering that people using thymol in beekeeping will be handling it at 95-99+% purity. At this concentration, yes - it could have corroded the surface of that guy's scale.

People need to know that working with concentrated thymol can be hazardous. And people promoting its use would be doing a better service to beekeepers by making them aware of the ACTUAL safety issues involved. 

Below is a section from the Thymol MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), which is documentation that chemical labs have to have on file for OSHA workplace safety standards. Decide for yourself if thymol is "gentle and non corrosive".


EMERGENCY OVERVIEW
Appearance: colorless or white solid.
Danger! Corrosive. Causes eye and skin burns. May be harmful if swallowed. May cause severe respiratory tract irritation with possible burns. May cause severe digestive tract irritation with possible burns. May cause nervous system effects. May cause adverse reproductive effects based upon animal studies. 
Target Organs: Kidneys, central nervous system, liver, spleen. 


Potential Health Effects 
Eye: Causes eye burns. May cause chemical conjunctivitis and corneal damage. 
Skin: Causes skin burns. May cause skin rash (in milder cases), and cold and clammy skin with cyanosis or pale color. 
Ingestion: May cause severe and permanent damage to the digestive tract. Causes gastrointestinal tract burns. May cause perforation of the digestive tract. May be harmful if swallowed. May cause systemic effects. 
Inhalation: Causes chemical burns to the respiratory tract. Aspiration may lead to pulmonary edema. May cause systemic effects. 
Chronic: Effects may be delayed. May cause adverse reproductive effects. 

During a fire, irritating and highly toxic gases may be generated by thermal decomposition or combustion.
-
Anything else I could say about thymol safety would just belabor the point. Beekeepers in the US - if you're going to use thymol in a way not registered, be careful - there's a reason why we have registered products, and the biggest is USER SAFETY.


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## BeeBear (Jan 20, 2004)

Interesting.

>> Pure thymol is gentle and non corrosive.

>> Thymol is CORROSIVE

When I see conflicting statements like this, it motivates me to do my own research. At http://www.safety.vanderbilt.edu/pdf/hcs_msds/thymol.pdf I found

Emergency Overview
------------------
WARNING! HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED. MAY BE HARMFUL IF INHALED. AFFECTS CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM. MAY CAUSE IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES, AND RESPIRATORY TRACT.

---------------------------------------------------

>> Pure thymol is gentle and non corrosive.

Sorry, no.

This whole FGMO treatement just took a dive in credibility.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Mike Stanghellini works at Rutgers U. He did not
mention it, but he is a respected member of the
white lab-coat set.

His credentials are impeccable, and his
point about Thymol is, of course, accurate.

I say this so that someone does not make the
error of trying to argue the point. There ARE
some things that can be called "facts", things
that are simply not open to debate.

Don't annoy Mike. You should be happy that he
is reading these threads, and takes the time to
jump in when he notices something that is
misinformed enough to pose an actual danger to
bees or beekeepers.

Of course, Mike is much too modest to mention any
of this, so I thought I'd introduce him to those
of you who don't know "who's who".

He's him. 

And I listen closely when he speaks.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Another classic example of 'Don't believe everything you read on the internet!'

I do believe Mike (and even Jim, this time







)


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## Stanghellini (Jan 16, 2005)

Just to be clear, my thymol safety comments weren't meant to challenge the proposed varroa treatment - I have no personal experience with FGMO+thymol, and as such, have nothing to say on its efficacy. My point was to simply provide more information for beekeepers' safety - which I believed was lacking here. It may be true that no one has been hurt by handling pure thymol - but the potential is certainly there. 

BeeBear's personal investigation on the technical data for thymol is great - no one should rely on a single person's statements - and this includes my own!

Jim and Dick - thanks for the accolades - but I have to say that my "white labcoat" manifests as a ragged t-shirt replete with beeswax and hive paint stains, usually with a few dried-out sting apparati on the neckline and shoulder. While there may be some "Ivory Tower" researchers out there, most of us are in the trenches. 

By the way, Jim, I now have some nice semi-dry, sparkling peach mead that I offer in trade for one of your bee-lining boxes. And Dick, as I said in email, the fireweed you sent me is outstanding - I'm afraid I ate most of it, leaving little for future Fireweed Mead batches!


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## manbee (Sep 22, 2003)

what is the proper ratios for both liquid and cords ,please........thanks


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
I have researched FGMO/thymol for five consecutive years (and so have Professional Laboratories who make commercial thymol for honey bee medication) and published my findings world-wide. Todate, no one in the "white coats" has made the slightest attempt at replicating my work or findings. Why? I could offer a lot of reasons, but I will let God be their judge. 
Thymol is utilized commercially for such preparations as mouthwash, Listerine, and no one has ever made references to Listerine being a threat to public health. My formulation is extremely low in thymol yet the "scientific community" disapproves of thymol in FGMO.
I know the reason, and it is time that those who read this thread should know. When I started working with FGMO, 11 years ago, my e-mail box was being collapsed daily by e-mails from research institutions staff and students with offesive dialogues. To put a top to it, I wrote back saying that if and when FGMO was proved to be effective, I would donate a thirty five pound crow to a member of the "scientific" community. I succeeded in stopping their e-mail. The tactics changed, and ever since, my work has been constantly attacked by the very same people.
Now the anti-FGMO propents have resorted to scare tactics. My thoughts about this trend: Those of you who trust the use of thymol should continue to use it just as you continue to purchase and use Listerine. 
I suppose that the Laboratories producing and selling medication with thymol against honey bee parasites will have something to say about this subject becaue they have an economic interest in it. And of course they can afford legal experts a lot better than I.
I am old and frail. This type of stress is not healthy for me hence this might be my last ever publication of any kind regarding FGMO/thymol. 
Sitting here behind my PC, I can imagine the smickering on the faces of those who wish that I would vanish. My consolation is that I have "sown the seed" with FGMO and hopefully there will be others who will continue my work. 
Have a wonderful day and God bless all including FGMO detractors.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
I promised myself that I would not continue submissions to this forum, but I am making an exception on the last addition to this thread. OSHA has standards requirements that must be published even for the mildest of facial soaps. Give me a break! 
Thanks for adding your perception about thymol use for beekeeping. But I think that you are falling short in your perceptions and good will.
How aobut informing beekeepers about the dangers of using AMITRAZ? The use of amitraz by beekeepers is well known but YOU did not seem to be concerned about it, or are you? If you are how come you have not been "compelled" to inform beekeepers about the dangers they face when they use amitraz, especially in a volatile form as they are doing this very day in the United States? 
I'll tell you why. Because your comments are vindictive, a personnal attack on FGMO and I. 
One more note that I did not include in my earlier submission on this thread. 
One good or bad aspect about what is written on the internet is that it can be preserved as permanent revords. I have kept records about what has been sent to me pro and against FGMO for 11 years including personal denigrating remarks. 
The authors of those remarks may well remember that they also wrote threatening me if I made public their remarks. Go figure.
Very best regards and God bless. 
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Stanghellini (Jan 16, 2005)

I debated writing this - not wanting to step on the toes of the FGMO/thymol advocates. However, written above is the same illogical use of a mouthwash example for thymol's safety, so I will cite the technical facts, again. I'm not trying to undermine, discredit, or downplay Dr.R.'s work, nor are my intentions to harass him, make him uncomfortable, or challenge his credibility. 

I've already stated I don't have any personal experience with his system for varroa control. I just want beekeepers to know that thymol, in pure form, is not something you want to treat so casually.

My statements on thymol safety are not "scare-tactics". Dr.R's remark implies I have an agenda that conflicts with his FGMO system. I have no such agenda. I do not consider varroa research to be my job security blanket - I would be truly thrilled if the varroa problem was solved, since I would much rather concentrate on pollination work. And - every other varroa researcher I know would be just as happy to work on something other than varroa. For those of you using the FGMO/thymol system, I hope it does work for you - and if it does, then continue to thank Dr.R. for his work.

Every commercial supplier of thymol should have the technical MSDS documents on file - and every single one of these will have a series of warning statement about the potentially corrosive nature of thymol in concentrate. Don't take my word for it, look up the technical info for thymol using a websearch.

Dr.R. - I'm sorry you feel attacked or if what I said hurts your feelings - however - in my opinion, it may be negligent to say that pure thymol is "gentle and non corrosive". How bad would you feel if someone injured their eyes by rubbing them after handling thymol without gloves because they read it was "gentle and non corrosive"? By the way, do you have liability insurance? If you are going to sell thymol, you might think about getting some. On the other hand, I am not worried about legal action from the thymol manufacturers, because they MAKE the same MSDS sheets I am citing.

As a scientist and vet, I am sure you would agree with me that many organic compounds can be dangerous when concentrated (thymol, formic, acid, oxalic acid, whatever).

Of course Listerine is not branded as a threat to human health - this is a formulated, ready-to-use product, and the thymol in it occurs at 0.064%. However, even Listerine has warning statements ("Do not swallow. In case of accidental overdose, consult Poison Control Center. Do not administer to children under 12 years of age."). - I have a bottle of Listerine as I write this.

In absolute contrast, the FGMO+thymol system is a recipe for people to follow - a recipe that includes handling pure thymol (99+%). Can anyone seriously compare a pre-mixed product containing 0.064% thymol to someone mixing 99% thymol into FGMO in their workshop?

As to why other researchers have not replicated your studies, I can only speak for myself - any treatment that requires weekly, or even monthly, applications throughout most of the year lies beyond my interests. I am looking for something more efficient. And at the risk of being flippant, I am comfortable that God will not punish me for my choice. 

The scientific community does not disapprove of thymol use - if we did, how do you explain ApiLife VAR and ApiGuard? 

I simply think everyone should be cautious using these highly concentrated organic compounds. 

This is my one and only point.

As for the dangers of Amitraz (and fluvalinate, coumaphos, formic acid, etc etc etc) - this thread is specific to THYMOL. Of course I have a problem with people using these other compounds in unapproved ways. And yes - they can be equally, if not significantly, more hazardous to beekeepers when used improperly.

I'm sorry you feel the need to be so defensive. I am not a vindictive person, and I am not attacking you or your method. 

By all means, keep a record of what I say here. You can publish them on a billboard 100 feet high for all I care. I have never threatened you, never slandered you or your work - yet to imply some profesional misconduct on my part is offensive to me. Keep in mind that that door can swing BOTH ways.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
As the readers in this forum may rememeber there have been times when the "flames" got way beyond control because some of the contributors forgot that the purpose of this forum is to discuss ideas that may assist beekeepers in their daily toils, especially working against honey bee parasites. Some people elect to make this their band stand to promote their personal vendattas, likes or dislikes, and yes to vent their angst for the sake of having an audience. Not more not less. 
"I have never threatened you. . . Keep in mind that that door can swing BOTH ways." 
How should I interpret this statment? Please do not reply, there is no need for it. 
I am an extremely devout person thus I would never ever wish harm on any one and much less ask God to punish others. On the contrary, many times a day I ask God to "forgive my offenses as I forgive those who offend me". Does this sound familiar? It should if you ever went to a Christian service. 
But in your angered mind you thought other than what I meant. I meant that God is my Saviour and he shall judge my actions! And hopefully forgive me if I am wrong. Let others, including you, worry about their salvation.

My statements are on record. I have not made any threats to anyone! I can not help if you fell threatened. No one should NEVER feel any kind of threat from me. 

About thymol. Obviously you are talking about something that you do not know. You are blaming me for something that I have NEVER said. I never said that thymol was "gentle and non-corrosive." 
On the contrary, if you were to read many of my previous posts to this forum, you would note that I have warmed people about the use of thymol. I am concerned about the type of thymol they may use, especially when some one wrote about thymol damaging his wife's scales when he weighed the thymol he was using. I have gone further and suggested that users may wear respirators. 
The type of thymol that I use is pure! But one can pour a whole bottle of it on one's bare arm and it will not cause any adverse effect. I am ready to demonstrate this fact any time. 
And about selling thymol. I am not in business of any kind. I have offered to share some of the thymol that I use for my work with those who may may have use for it and not be able to find it in the market. I spend one good portion of my retirement check trying to find ways to help beekeepers unlike those who sit behind a government or private institutiion desk looking for ways to keep their check coming. My only benefit from my work with bees is that, as so aptly put by the great humanitarian Albert Schweitzer " You must give something to your fellowmen . . . something that you get no pay but the privilege of doing it."
In closing and for the last time.
1. You arfe dead wrong, Beesource is not only about FGMO/thymol.
2. If you do not have an ax to grind, and have nothing personal about my work, and you wished to warm me, why did you not write me a personal e-mail? 
3. If you are not grand-standing, why don't you let it go already? 
Enough said.
May the Almighty Lord bless and grant peace to all of us.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Stanghellini (Jan 16, 2005)

There's a lot I could say right now, but this debate is played out. The text on these pages speaks for itself - and the readers are smart enough to derive their own conclusions on what my intentions were or were not.

Just to be clear, yes - you did say that thymol was gentle and non corrosive. Read your March 3 posting on page one of the thread. This is what started my involvement. I'll assume from your most recent post that you're retracting this statement.

- - -
This bit I am adding on the morning of April 5th, as I won't want to interfere with the current last post on this thread (which at this time is a pleasant discourse between those friends).

Pure thymol is pure thymol. Period. Here is a technical data sheet for Pure (100%) Thymol:

https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/23475.htm 

The warning statements I posted earlier are identical. I don't have an ApiGuard label, but the ApiLife VAR label has warning statements like "Fatal if swallowed", etc. Conclusion: thymol can be a hazard IF treated improperly.

I will now gently and non-corrosively depart from this imaginary kingdom of magically-safe thymol and erroneous conspiracy theories.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Just for the record. 
THE TYPE OF THYMOL THAT I USE FOR MY WORK IS GENTLE AND NON-CORROSIVE. I can not say otherwise for other types that might be in the market, and as I have stated, I worry about it. 

Regards, and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> THE TYPE OF THYMOL THAT I USE FOR MY WORK IS 
> GENTLE AND NON-CORROSIVE

Perhaps it would help to define the source of
the specific thymol you use, and provide a
product number or name.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Good-by folks.
After so many years contributring to this forum, I thought that this day would never arrive, however, sadly it has arrived. I can not stand idle and watch the work for which I have spent so much of my own personal money and sacrifices be destroyed by GRANDSTANDING people with personal agendas seeking glory at the expense of innocent people. My heavenly given faith tells me that my work has not been in vain and that honey bees and nature will continue to benefit from it. 
I lament that this will be my last contgribution to this forum. I do so in order to remove the the opportunity that grandstanders see fit to make utilize for their own personal attacks. My private e-mail address will remain open to all who may wish to write to me.
[email protected]
And yes, I will glady reply to Mr. Fisher's request about the origin of the thymol that I use. 
It is the very same source of the thymol used by the manufacturers of ApiLifeGuard. I hope that will put everybody's mind at ease since it has been made clear in this thread that thymol used by those Laboratories is OKAY! Go figure!
May The Good Lord bless all of you and protect our precious honey bees.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## BeeBear (Jan 20, 2004)

>> There's a lot I could say right now, but this debate is played out. The text on these pages speaks for itself - and the readers are smart enough to derive their own conclusions on what my intentions were or were not.

I want to publicly and formally thank you for taking the time to contribute to the information here.

When I first read about the FGMO idea, I thought I might give it a try. I've changed my mind. If the slightest question about the method generates this kind of response, that tells me more than reams of data about mite droppings.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>.......destroyed by GRANDSTANDING people with personal agendas......

FWIW, I saw no grandstanding. My $0.02.


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## JJ (Jun 22, 2004)

Hey Dr. I want you to know that there is alot of us still out here that thinks you are doing a great job. I have said before and Ill say again thanks so much for all your time and help on fighting the mite problem. Take care JJ


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## Neubee (Mar 23, 2005)

The same goes for me Dr. R. Thank you for all the time and effort you spent to make beekeeping more succesful.
APK


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
This has been a very sad and joyful day for me indeed. I wish to express my most, deepest heart felt thanks to all of you who have writen or called to wish me well. I feel greatly honored by your words. 
I promise to continue doing what I know best, taking care of honey bees and that I will continue to provide the findings of my work to beekeepers just as I have done in the past regardless of the fact that there are a few individuals who wish FGMO to fade away. It is not going to happen any time soon as long as I can continue to do my work.
AGain, thank all so very much for your faith, trust and friendship.
Very best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Dr. R.

Some folks have nothing better to do than to act like the SOUTH end of a NORTH bound horse!

They are only a few so don`t let them get under your skin!!

FGMO I tried it and I LIKE it THANKS FOR YOUR TIME !!!!


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Thanks honeyman. I appreciate your thoughts deeply.
There are a lot of Judas in this world. It is understandable. If they sold Jesus Our Saviour, why not me?
Thank you ever so much and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## daniel G. (Feb 24, 2005)

Hey Dr Pedro,

You can't leave us stranded here and remember you are really on to something new to the beekeeping world. Other people have a hard time of changing, or thinking outside the box. 

One can see from your research that FGMO and Thymol are working and do not have other side affects. I wish others using this system would speak out on how well it is working for them. The amount of Thymol you are using is not very much. If anyone would like to look at pepermint oil, that to has warnings on it but yet we use it in different products. 

I think your research and your time dealing with varroa needs to be applauded. At least this is something one can use year round and not worry about it collecting in the honey or wax.

Keep up the good work. Dan


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## DLJ (Apr 5, 2005)

I found this thread fascinating. No seems to know the difference between a leaf off a Thyme plant (which is perfectly safe and makes chicken taste really good) and the white crystal you get by pressing and steaming a hundred pounds of leaves into Thyme Oil then dehydrating that into crystalline form (concentrating it a few hundred thousand time into a caustic substance). Thyme is a wonderful herb with lots of good uses, but if you concentrate it, you earn an EPA warning and a MSDS.

If you want to buy a $145 fogger (somebody got took) and $65 a kilo toxic waste then put it in you hives on a regular basses, that your call.

I use full screen bottom boards, Dr. R's ropes (without Thymol)(they work as good as grease patties but don't leave a mess in the hive and are easier to work with), and when I use my smoker I get it going then add Stag Horn Schumac and Thyme leaves ($0.89 a plant at any nursery).

I check my mite level periodically (beware of a beekeeper that tells you he doesnt have mites, he might lie about other things) and if they get up to the threshold (pick your own) I start with FGMO fogger (no Thymol) treatment. If a limited response doesnt work then we can declare nuclear war. Do not use any chemical treatment regularly to prevent mites; that kind of pressure only breeds resistance, remember: If it aint broke, dont fix it.

If you ask 7 expert beekeepers the same question, you will get 8 different answers.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I heard a beekeeper at ABF tell a story about an employee getting sick from being in the cab with the empty packaging from Apiu Life Var... to the point of vomiting!

Dickm


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
That was precisely why I was so devastated during the arguments last week in the forum. 
I was chastised because I said that "the thymol I use is gentle and non corrosive. This is a true statement. 
I have warned about other preparations that might be toxic based on inpurities or on concentration, even though the thymol used may both be from the same source.
There are thymol commercial products for beekeeping that evapoorate rather easily and emit very high thymol contration vapors BECAUSE the formulation in those products is too high. I kept lowering the quantity of thymol in my formulae until I reached a point in which it is still very effective however the concentration is very low. Read my formulation posted in beesource.com Please. 
Another very important point regarding existing commercial thymol formulations is that even though it is claimed that the thymol is released very slowly, it does not. In a hot day, those preparations vaporize rapidly and vanish into the hive and environment. Imagine the shock that a colony of bees will get during one of our "hot" days in the Southern and Western states. 
Please try both formulae and compare. You can easily be the judge. 
One great advantage of FGMO/thymol application is that the operator controls the emisions volume, dates of application and climatic conditins when applications are made. Also, the cost diffence is very cost-effective in favor of FGMO/thymol. You be the judge.
Thanks for your valuable contribution. Have a wonderful day in the company of Our Lord Jesus.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

This is a copy and paste quote of what you actually wrote: 
" Pure thymol is gentle and non corrosive."

Probably you meant to say: "the thymol I use is gentle and non corrosive", but that's not what you wrote. I've never used FGMO and have no interest in FGMO one way or another. If it does work as you and others claim, well then great, but let's be factual about what was actually written.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Mr. Allen:
Not "probably"!
How is anyone to know what some else has in his/her mind. I stand corrected for the sake of continuance and to keep this bulletin board free of grandstanding people. I am a man of honor and principles. I would never ever deny having said or done my own words or acts as some people whom I know who even try to make theirs what rightfully bolong to others. 
FGMO is a forum for the betterment of beekeeping and to assist beekeepers. If anyone is not interested in FGMO, I suggest that he/she simply disregard it and let others who are having tremendous success with it continue to use it. Right Clinton?
You and your click are desperately attempting to disorganize this bulletin board with your incendiary comments. I think it is high time that Barry would intervene and start deleting unnecessary comments before they are posted and deny the opportunity for grandstanding on this bulletin board. 
What say ye, Barry?
May the Good Lord grant us all eternal peace.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Forums like this one are one of the few places 
that exist for open discussion. 

Dick Allen has not made any "incendiary" comments.
I don't know who stands accused of "grandstanding",
but I haven't seen any of that, either.

There are questions and doubts about all practices
in beekeeping. Addressing them does not require
one to question the motives of those expressing
the questions and doubts. There are many who can
answer most questions, so no one person need
feel obligated to respond to everything.

As far as "Pure thymol is gentle and non
corrosive" goes, I still await a specific
vendor name and ordering number so that
we can obtain samples of this unique form
of thymol apparently never before offered
in the USA.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I read this thread and for the life of me I am confused as to what Dr. R is so upset about???

I am going to try FGMO and Thymol (already rounded up a fogger). I welcome Stanghellini and Dick's comments and am always open to hear discussion. Any chemical in a pure state should be treated with caution. Labratory procedures learned in high school should be consistant with this "safe" product or known dangerous ones. 

I hope Dr. R continues with the forum and adds to the discussion.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Dear Bruce (and other participants in this bulletin board.) 
Your statement: "for the life of me I am confused as to what Dr. R. is so uopset about???"
has given me reason to believe that there may be other visitors to this page who may have the same feeling as you do. 
Thus, here are a few facts that I hope will put their mind at ease. 
!. Beekeeping is in trouble with thousands of colonies crashing every day in our country (according to responsible reports posted on various bulleting boards and other media). While there may be various reasons causing the "crashes" it is generally believed that the principal causes are honey parasitic mites. 
2. I have worked and continue to work at great pesonal sacrifices looking for ways to assist beekeeping and to protect our honey bees. As the fruit of my work I have found that thymol is an excellent tool against varroa mites because contrary to other miticides, thymol acts simultaneously at several sites of the mites causing a faster rate of death of the mits. Thymol combined with FGMO enhances the rate of death of varroa mites preventing the mites from returning to the larval cells hence denying the mites the ability to develop resistance to this form of control. 
3. Persons with known knowledge (thus influential) in beekeeping) have challenged my acquired knowledge in the use of this combination of products as stated above. 
4. I am a dedicated, responsible civic and God loving citizen who has no economic interest (having donated my findings to beekeeping and humanity from the word go) well qualified professional.
5. There are commercial products in the market that utilize FGMO AND THYMOL for the very same purpose as I recommend. 
6. Visitors to this forum are told that there is nothing personal when they challenge my assertions, yet no mention has been made about questions asked from these other sources.
7. If there were no ill intentions in proposing their querries, why were they not made in a professional manner directly to my e-mail address which I have posted on this bulleting board and in my professional writings time and again. 
8. In my mind, there are personal traits involved. There have been lots of previous instances where personal attitudes have been utilized to "evaluate" my work. 
9. In pursuit of my goals, I am extremely concerned about the well-being of honey bees, the environment and humanity. I am highly qualified professionally to pursue those goals hence my selection of FGMO and thymol both demonstrated to be safe for these purposes. My sources of FGMO and thymol have been/are nationally recognized as law abiding and safe. 
10. Gas chromatography analysis of wax and honey obtained from hives treated with FGMO/thymol for three consecutive years prior to sampling have demonstrated the absence of even traces of residues of either product in either honey or wax samples analysed, fact that has been posted on this bulletin board by means of the actual test results. 
All 10 items afore mentioned are not new to visitors to this forum. Thus I ask why suddenly there is an uproar of voices against the form in which I express my knowledge and findings? 
I am proud of my work in search of ways and means to help the beekeeping industry in particular and beekeeping in general hence I resent statements that imply that my performance is inappropriate. 
Lastly, the thymol that I use bears a European Community registration code toxicity statement that reads as follows:
LD oral dose for rabbits 750 mg/kg
LD oral dose for mice 980 mg/kg
Translated to humans this data indicates that a person would need to ingest ca. 90 grams of pure thymolfor similar effects. 
I most sincerely hope that this explanation will put minds at ease and dispel fears from using one , if not the best agent that we have available against varroa and T-mites in beekeeping, thymol. 
Bruce, if you live near the Tidewater area of Virginia, I will glady donate excess beekeping equipment that I own. 
In Jesus Christ Our Lord Saviour,
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Beekeeping is in trouble with thousands of 
> colonies crashing every day in our country 
> (according to responsible reports posted on 
> various bulleting boards and other media).

The reports were greatly exaggerated, were
anything but "responsible", and some serious
backpedaling is now being done, even to the
point of one Bee-L member making the lame and
feeble excuse that is was "all a joke".

When the reports first surfaced, we (me, and
a few other people that are associated with
"Bee Culture" magazine) tried to verify the
nature of the problem, and could not find any
greater losses than had been suffered in other
recent years. Yes, it was a bad year for many,
and as often happens, some beekeepers took some
serious losses. But again, this does NOT appear
to be a major disaster of nationwide proportions,
or even an unusually exceptional year in terms
of losses.

Even the USDA Beltsville Bee Lab got involved,
and sent a man out to CA to look at hives, and
talk to beekeepers. They found nothing unusual.

So, the reports of "disaster" were wrong.


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Dr. R........ Thanks for your reply. I have done a fair amount of reading on FMGO and will be trying it along with small cell foundation.

I will also be trying the cords and if I can locate some thymol will give that a try as well.

Hope you stay connected here and continue with your work.


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## stonybrook (Aug 23, 2004)

I have read through this thread (this whole sub-board/FGMO forum actually), and will state as simple fact that it is obvious to anyone that there are about 4/5 members who have a clearly biased agenda of simply discrediting anything to do with Dr. Rodriguezs' techniques utilizing FGMO/Thymol. Said members seldom offer anything constructive to this forum, never offer a single iota of constructive input when a member posts a beneficial or positive result they have observed while using any of the techniques discussed here (other than to post a message attacking say the posters credentials or educational background, or perhaps the lack of use of the "scientific method" when arriving at said concluded benefit) IE: "Look mister, you're a backwoods beekeeper, *we* have the word of respected college fellows who can tell you that what you have observed is wrong." and so on and so forth. These 4/5 users do however immediately flock into a circle and begin clucking and scratching like "agitated hens" the instant there is a message posted here that describes a not so favourable experience in using FGMO. Its the same old claptrap rehashed by the same old pundits over and over again. It's tiresome and frankly rather childish in its nature.

(Note to the college law students on the advisory board of the "big 5" (herein referred to as "clucking hens"): Be it known that Any members/names I may refer to in text below this point shall in no way constitute or imply that said named members are inclusive to the "4 or 5 Clucking hens" as defined in the paragraph preceding this one.) ( or, in plain english: If your name appears below, I am in no way implying or saying you are a clucking hen) - and any association therein is purely coincidental.

This particular thread, we'll call the "Dangers of Thymol" - is a perfect example of something taken in context (handling thymol is gentle/non corrosive) (yes, I said "In context") - and being thoroughly dissected, and then the entire thread blown completely out of any kind of sane proportional boundries.

We are next treated to a fairly detailed post from (the impeccably credentialed - Mr? Dr? Esq?) Mike Stanghellini on the absolute falsness of Dr. Rodgriguezs' statement about the gentleness of pure thymol. Citing all kinds of (and to be fair truly accurate in the proper context) warnings, dangers etc. Nervous system collapse, loss of sex drive, diminished libido, etc.. as Found on the packaging and chemical/materials data sheet. Mike further goes on to relegate as "absurd" the mouthwash safety connection. While it may be true that in listerines aqueous solution the thymol concentrations are small, the correlation of the fact that a solution containing *ANY* concentration of thymol, can be brought directly into contact with the human mucous membrane without the mouthwasher suffering chemical corrosive burns is highly relevant. (Have a look at the particulate concentratuion in say Vicks Vapour-rub, or Tiger Balm - which many people (including myself), regularly shove right up their noses or put into a vaopurizer and inhale the gaseous form (or more accurately emulsified droplet) directly into their lungs. While it certainly does not invite one to ingore your precious MSDS data sheet, I would have to say I'm suprised that someone with such impeccable credentials and purported scientific background (such as yourself) would make a blanket statement that the correlation is "Absurd and Illogical" as it is neither. 

In reference to it having a corrosive effect on plastic: I have researched the subject and have been unable to find any reference whatsoever to indicate reactivity between thymol and any polymer (or monomer for that matter), In fact in the MSDS istelf it states specific reacivity between organic materials, strong bases and oxidizers. (now I suppose one could offer a frail argument that hybrid plastics such as parlon could contribute chlorine molecules and thus function as a oxidizer, however it would be a flimsy contention at best and can be disregarded by all but the truly inane). I dont see anything at all (in the MSDS or anywhere else) to indicate that it is reactive (thus corrosive) to plastic or reactive to any petroleum derivitave at all (ie: the petroleum jelly in Vicks). In which case I will defer to Dr. Rodriguezes reply to the person that had thymol melting a plastic scale tray - there was probably some other chemical involved, and it was not the thymol melting the plastic tray. The *facts* in all cases indicate that thymol is non-reactive (non corrosive) to plastic, Mike.

Now I suppose I could be sarcastic, and qualify myself by saying that I am assuming the plastic trays on the unfortunate users scale were not composed of a non-petroleum based plastic substitute - say SoyPlus(tm) - which is in fact an organic (soy bean vs Petroleum) based plastic substitute, which of could of course react with the thymol. However to do so would be to belabor the point. Besides, my undergraduate degree was in Applied/Dynamic Physics and not chemistry, I'm out of my field here, thus my credentials are in fact "peckable" (sic). 

In a subsequent post, Mr/dr/esq? Stanghellini disclaims himself as not wanting discredit, harass nor make Dr. Rodriguez uncomfortable.. Then proceeds to offer legal council in the form of advising Dr. Rodriguez to obtain liability insurance. Are you Mike, also a respected member of the pipe smoking (meerschaum), "first initial using" group of the Rutgers Law staff?, Furthermore, are you sir, aware of the dire consequences of giving unsolicited (*and* out of state) legal council? Let me tell you, the chemical burns you think you might get from handling thymol will pale in comparison to the thrashing you will get from the hands of the New Jersy Bar association.

Next, readers are treated to highly supportive & constructive posts such as:

> His credentials are impeccable, and his
> point about Thymol is, of course, accurate.
>
> I say this so that someone does not make the
> error of trying to argue the point. There ARE
> some things that can be called "facts", things
> that are simply not open to debate.

> Don't annoy Mike.

How does one even read such a thing and keep a straight face? 

Jim - Let me make sure I get all your points straight here.

1) Your expertise in the subject (chemistry) qualifies you to endorse Mikes statements as irrefutable fact. In effect, now that you have seconded Mikes statements, which though able to stand on their own merit, are now "extra true" with the added weight of your endorsement.

2) Furthermore, You want to make sure we realize that raising any debate or different opinion on the issue, would be a perilous error, especially since _you_ have dictated (apparently on behalf of mike) that the subject is closed to debate.

3) Readers/members are to do nothing that might annoy Mike, as he might take offense and go away depriving myself and others of his impeccable credentials and disbursement of knowledge? 

- Have I got everything straight there Jim? What is all that even supposed to mean? Do you take yourself that seriously? come on man. Breath in through the nose... out through the mouth..

And another whiz-kid states:
> Sorry, no.
> 
> This whole FGMO treatement just took a dive in credibility. 

Is this seriously the conslusion you arrived at? are you that naive? 


----

Now to put everthing in perspective - Lets, just for fun go over the MSDS sheet for a truly dangerous substance:

----cut here: start MSDS danger sheet-----

Emergency Overview 
-------------------------- 
POISON! DANGER! CORROSIVE. LIQUID AND MIST CAUSE SEVERE BURNS
TO ALL BODY TISSUE. MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF
INHALED. INHALATION MAY CAUSE LUNG AND TOOTH DAMAGE.
FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR.
J.T. Baker SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for your convenience) 
Health Rating: 2 - Moderate 
Flammability Rating: 2 - Moderate 
Reactivity Rating: 2 - Moderate 
Contact Rating: 3 - Severe (Corrosive) 
Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES & SHIELD; LAB COAT & APRON; VENT HOOD; PROPER
GLOVES; CLASS B EXTINGUISHER 
Storage Color Code: White Stripe Store Separately 

Inhalation: 
Inhalation of concentrated vapors may cause serious damage to the lining of the nose, throat, and
lungs. Breathing difficulties may occur. Neither odor nor degree of irritation are adequate to indicate
vapor concentration. 
Ingestion: 
Swallowing can cause severe injury leading to death. Symptoms include sore throat, vomiting, and
diarrhea. Ingestion of as little as 1.0 ml has resulted in perforation of the esophagus. 
Skin Contact: 
Contact with concentrated solution may cause serious damage to the skin. Effects may include
redness, pain, skin burns. High vapor concentrations may cause skin sensitization. 
Eye Contact: 
Eye contact with concentrated solutions may cause severe eye damage followed by loss of sight.
Exposure to vapor may cause intense watering and irritation to eyes. 
Chronic Exposure: 
Repeated or prolonged exposures may cause darkening of the skin, erosion of exposed front teeth,
and chronic inflammation of the nose, throat, and bronchial tubes. 
Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions: 
Persons with pre-existing skin disorders or eye problems, or impaired respiratory function may be
more susceptible to the effects of the substance. 

-------------end cut: MSDS danger sheet---------


Now I'm sure you all have read and understood the hazards of the above substance. The MSDS clearly spells it out. and I think that by reading this MSDS we could all arrive at the *FACT* (re: Jim - facts, and things not open to debate) that the described chemical is nothing we would want to handle or use at all, and anyone making such a substance available to others should (re: Mike - Legal Council) get liability insurance.

And the substance is...... Vinegar (acetic acid)

http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSAcetic.html#anchor888417 

Or lets have a look at another extremely dangerous substances MSDS: 

Emergency Overview 
-------------------------- 
WARNING! HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED OR INHALED. CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. MAY CAUSE ALLERGIC RESPIRATORY REACTION. POSSIBLE BIRTH DEFECT HAZARD. MAY CAUSE BIRTH DEFECTS BASED ON ANIMAL DATA. AFFECTS THE RESPIRATORY SYSTEM, LIVER, KIDNEYS, EYES, SKIN AND BLOOD. 
-----end------

This one being the extremely dangerous: Aspirin.

http://www.uiowa.edu/~chemsafe/MSDS/aspirin.htm 

Could we have a show of hands for those of you who have never swallowed an aspirin (I mean it is indisputable *fact* that it is clearly labled in the MSDS as harmful if swallowed) Jim, Mike?, dont be bashful..

Bear - I guess the benefits and credibility of aspirin just took a big dive. right?

I think we all get the point, and my beating of a dead horse is becoming silly.


As you can clearly see, *FACTS* can be painted with a highly subjective brush. I give the above Vinegar & Aspirin "scare sheets" as a simple example of how something can be skewed completely out of context. By no means should any person ever handle any chemical without reading and understanding the hazmat data - to do so would be inviting disaster - however, can a single one of you really tell me that they had on their lab apron, Class B Extinguisher & Saftey Goggles & Shield the last time they made a dinner salad? 

Remeber, Just because someone is said to have impeccable credentials, and has a following of persons who may tout and share the same opinion(s), does not render any subject "closed for discussion".

Any and all are welcome to annoy me. I'll stay around and offer my *OPINIONS* anyhow. 

Dr. Rodriguez - I have been using the FGMO, FGMO+Thymol for about 5 years - My experience with it has been 100% positive. I have not applied the scientific method to my study and use of FGMO - I basically just started fogging my hives early in the spring with FGMO+thymol - through the summer with plain FGMO (no thymol, as I do quite a bit of pollen collection and have simply feared getting a vicks taste in the collected pollen) - and in the fall after honey/pollen collection is over, I revert back to FGMO+Thymol solution. I fog once or twice weekly. I have never lost a colony to varroa mites. I am sure (non scientifically and "sure" being my own subjective opinion) There are many factors involved with keeping the varroa in check such as good strains of bees, SBB, local conditions, but it is also my own opinion that the fogging does play a more than small role in control of varroa (and tracheal) mites - Which I have not treated for (menthol) since starting the FGMO procedures.

Please keep up the good work, and please continue to contribute to this forum. I for one look forward to any posts, information and insights you have to offer on varroa control.

remember, only dead fish go with the flow









Cheers all.

Todd Lawrence
MS - Computer Sciences
SMS - Applied Dynamic Physics
CFIAIMEI
FAA OEO Designated Examiner
FAA Check Airman
ATP - BEO2, CL65, EMB120
Part-Time Beekeeper
Legion of Doom!
(Just look at all those powerful credentials


----------



## JJ (Jun 22, 2004)

Wow, Well said Stonybrook. You keep up the good work Dr. Take care JJ


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Sadly, stonybrook got his facts dead wrong, either 
in a deliberate attempt to mislead/confuse, or due
to a lack of understanding of technical details.

The MSDS offered by stonybrook clearly says that
it describes 100% pure acetic acid.

That's not vinegar!

Vinegar is a SOLUTION containing acetic acid, one that
contains only 5% to 7% acetic acid, diluted in water.

An actual MSDS for vinegar, showing it to be mostly harmless,
can be read here:
http://www.holycross.edu/departments/dos/website/public_safety/DISTVINE.HTM 

The warnings listed in the MSDS for 100% acetic acid are appropriate.
Like any pure acid, it must be handled with care.

For the aspirin "example", the MSDS for that chemical says exactly
what it says, which should be no surprise to anyone:

"Extremely large oral doses may cause mild burning 
pain in the mouth and stomach, anorexia, nausea, 
vomiting, intense thirst, diarrhea, dizziness, 
irritability, confusion, coma, teratogenic effects, 
and death from respiratory failure. The mean lethal 
dose of aspirin by mouth probably lies between 20 
and 30 grams in adults."

This is a whole different kettle of fish from taking a single dose
of aspirin (500 mg or so). The warning is about what happens if
one takes 40 to 60 aspirin at one time, rather than 2.

So, in both "examples" cited, the prudent and highly appropriate
warnings given for undiluted and/or large quantities of a chemical
are misrepresented, and claimed to be warnings about the common 
consumer product versions of these chemicals. 

As for any statements that anyone who has posted to BeeSource is somehow 
"against" Pedro, that's just plain silly, and just as misinformed as
claims that vinegar is listed as dangerous. The post is a "troll",
attempting to start an argument where there wasn't one.

In regard to people, if you're not part of the solution,
you're part of the problem.

For chemicals, if you're not part of the solution,
....you're part of the precipitate!










jim


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## stonybrook (Aug 23, 2004)

Jim,

Thank you kindly for educating me (and everyone else)on the chemical constitution of pure acetic acid and household vinegar. I was thoroughly confused, and wasnt able to clearly read the lable (and msds) on the lab grade, reagent quality .1% (yes thats "point one percent")acetic acid solution I am looking at here. Which while having less of a concentration of pure acetic acid than in household vinegar (household vinegar being astronomically higher at 5-6%), still carries (and is shipped with) the same Highly dangerous MSDS warning sheet.

In fact, feel free to order yourslf up a bottle at:

http://www.sciencestuff.com/prod/Chem-Rgnts/C1122 

When it arrives via HAZMAT approved carrier, pull out the MSDS data sheet you get with your .1% aqueous solution - post it here.


My point again, since it obviously bypassed you my first time around, being - is, it is very easy to paint facts in any light one wishes to substantiate by simply selectively quoting the so called facts.

However, I am always open to being corrected, and I stand justly rebuked. Thank you for setting me straight on my misunderstanding between acetic acid and vinegar sir - as I said in my long winded diatribe, any subject should be open for discussion.

cheers

-todd


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Thank you kindly for educating me...

Just trying to help.









> Which while having less... acetic acid than 
> in household vinegar... still carries 
> (and is shipped with) the same Highly dangerous 
> MSDS warning sheet.

...well, I clicked on the link you supplied, and
the page gave a fair and reasonable assessment 
of the actual risks (if any) posed by the specific
product they sell:

Hazard Rating:
(4-Extreme 3-Severe 
2-Moderate 1-Slight 0-Minimal)

Health 2
Flammability 0
Reactivity 0

And the MSDS that they offer in connection with
that page http://www.sciencestuff.com/msds/C1122.html 
is MUCH less scary than the one you offered, saying merely:
"May be harmful if swallowed. May cause 
irritation. Avoid breathing vapors, or dusts. 
Use with adequate ventilation. Avoid contact 
with eyes, skin, and clothes. Wash thoroughly
after handling."

So, if they sent you an MSDS for 100% acetic
acid along with .1% acetic acid, they simply
screwed up. The MSDS offered online should 
have been sent instead.

What excuse do you offer for trotting out
aspirin? You forgot that no one in their
right mind would take 60 tablets at a time?


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>it is very easy to paint facts in any light one wishes to substantiate by simply selectively quoting the so called facts.

Right you are stonybrook! In the words of Homer Simpson: "Facts are meaningless. Facts can be used to prove things that are only remotely true." 

That goes for your "side" of the issue, too....

Doh!


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## Jack Adams (Mar 9, 2005)

Man some of you folks have way to much free time to type and think. I'm open to anything that may help and add to the "ipm" hype that our grant seeking types talk about.
And don't drag Homer into this,he would'nt debate this anyway.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>...way to much free time to type and think

I noticed the thinking part came after the typing part. Was that by design?


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## stonybrook (Aug 23, 2004)

Actually Jim, 

My point in bringing up and posting the msds sheets (accompanied by my sarcastic assessments with each) was to show exactly how simple it is to take selective parts of a "sheet of facts" in this case the MSDS's and, using those (selected parts) of the facts support my contention. Which they most certainly did. - I guess I have to try to explain this to you one more time..

re: acetic acid - Sorry Jim, but even .1% aqueous solution of acetic acid carries a hazmat/corrosive warning label and data sheet. Do we believe that .1% vinegar acid could corrode anything? You'll have to decide that for yourself. 

re: aspirin - I dont need to go back and restate something I have already clearly shown - the MSDS I cut and pasted was exactly the data for aspirin. Plain and simple. The MSDS clearly says in plain english: "WARNING: Hazardous if swallowed." I have no need whatsoever to start discussing ammounts ingested to support my re-statement of the MSDS facts cleary state that aspirine is hazardous to ingest. Because Jim, thats simply what it says. To (kinda) steal a line from you - "there is no room for debate".

It is clear the the entire point of me posting selected parts of the two chemicals data sheets(and my follow up to your PURE ACETIC ACID!) went completely over your head, and will continue to elude you. At no point have I issued any opionion on whether I believed, or disbelieved the data whatsoever. I simply posted the actual MSDS data and started making sarcastic commentary about it. I am fairly certain, that if you just slow down, gather your senses and apply some rational thought to the whole matter all will eventually become clear to you.

Now heres a fact - Continuing to discuss the symantics of the chemical compositions of substances that have nothing to do with varroa control on the FGMO board is unquestionably foolish of me. So I'll simply drop the thread - as someone (who is obviously thinking rationally said) Some people (me) have too much time for thinking and writing.

peace sir.

-todd


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I guess I ain't as smart as the rest of you. When I try to read these diatribes, my eyes glaze over and my brain shuts down. My method of beekeeping is to listen to everybody's opinions and try the one that makes sense to me. If it doesn't work, I try the next one on down the line until I hit on something that does the job. I never got to the thymol stage. FGMO fog every 5th day for 5 seconds has kept my 24hr sticky board count to under 5 mites, so that's what I'm sticking with. If I ever need to try it, I'll go to thymol. If it doesn't work or if I feel it's hazardous, I'll stop. There are as may opinions as there are beekeepers. Let's just agree to disagree.


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## stonybrook (Aug 23, 2004)

Hey there tia!

I am glad to see you have had a good experience with plain FGMO. I have been bursting 2 or three bursts (3-4 seconds per burst)each into each hive from about 6 inches away. - My mite drop counts are roughly the same as you have been experiencing. (although I do use the thymol solution in the spring and late fall - for most of the season I use plain FGMO) Except on one hive which I *think* is a second generation russian strain. If I see 1-2 mites on a 24 hour sticky drop it's a rare thing! I'm going split this hive and raise a few queens from the strain this summer and see if the anti-mite trait carries over. Hopefully it will.

How is that hive you had that was refusing to take any syrup? have they started taking it yet? - One of my hives was acting exactly like yours, ignoring the top feeder, syrup, pollen patties, etc. I finally had a warm enough day to go into the colony and found that the queen, while making through the winter had turned into a drone layer. - I requeened the colony, and as soon as the new queen started laying the girls were taking the syrup as fast as I could fill the feeder!

-cheers


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Hey, Stonybrook. Strangely enough, changed from the Mann Lake to the Miller feeder and they were fine. None of my bees seem to like the Mann Lake feeder. Don't know why and it's a shame because it holds more syrup. Actually, feeding season's over here--there's quite a nectar flow going on right now (they're especially working the clover), so the feeders are all coming off tomorrow and the supers are going on.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Blatantly false statement continue to be made.
I'm confused as to what is not understood.

> acetic acid... even .1% aqueous solution of acetic 
> acid carries a hazmat/corrosive warning label and data 
> sheet. 

You quoted the wrong MSDS. The correct MSDS for 0.1% acetic 
acid does not say "corrosive", nor does it say "Haz-Mat". 
In fact, it says at the end of the document: "DOT Classification: 
Not Regulated". Why not read it? 
http://www.sciencestuff.com/msds/C1122.html 

If you actually were shipped 0.1% acetic by Haz-Mat, you are
due a refund. But you never even ordered any, did you?









> Do we believe that .1% vinegar acid could corrode anything? 
> You'll have to decide that for yourself.

As I said, the correct MSDS for the 0.1% acetic does not even 
contain the word "corrosive". No one has to "decide".

> re: aspirin - I dont need to go back and restate something I have 
> already clearly shown 

Shown what, exactly? That 60 aspirin might not be good for you?
Is this some sort of surprise to anyone?

> I simply posted the actual MSDS data 

In the first case, from the wrong MSDS, and in the second,
ignoring the actual words, which clearly describes the 
OVERdose required before any warnings are required.

> ...unquestionably foolish of me.

We agree on at least that point.









> So I'll simply drop the thread 

Distain for (or ignorance of) basic safety documents designed 
to protect people from truly hazardous materials cannot go
unchallenged. The attitude poses a danger to beekeepers, and
there are several chemicals in use now that must be handled
properly to be handled safely.

> Some people (me) have too much time for thinking and writing.

Given the number of self-described "newbees" that read these
posts, I wish you took more time to think before making such
misleading claims.

> peace sir.

If you were angry about anything, the rest of us are peaceful,
so not to worry.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I'm with Tia, if it works for me it works for me. If it doesn't, then I look for something else. And if I think you have a quirky idea that works for you, then more power to you! So why can't I share a quirky idea of my own without a lot of hoopla and judgmentalism?

I find it interesting how the level of attacks and defense the personalities, and their cult following, seems to transcend the logic of idea discussions. Ideas are just ideas, but it seems of you disagree, there is a backlash of defensiveness.

This is true whether we're talking about FGMO or SBB or fall requeening. We all have to find what works for us, and not every idea works for everyone. Human error and ignorance, mine included, can change the outcome of the best applications. It doesn't change the merit of the idea, only the application and the relevance of that application to my particulare method of management (or lack of it!).

Plain FGMO did not work for me. So do I get lumped into the anti-Rodriquez movement? Am I not free to state my experience without raising the hackles on his followers?

I tested FGMO against control hives (no fog) and against other options (eucalyptus and wintergreen oils) and sumac in my smoker. I counted mites and invested a lot of time working under my conditions. I now use 5% thymmol with canola oil and a few of my own ingredients with good success. So is this an anti-Rodriguez statement? Not in my book.

And yes, I likely made a bunch of mistakes in my experiments, and there were variables beyond my control. But my thoughts have always been focused on the ideas and not on personal attacks of anyone. 

It has seemed that if anyone has a different opinion or experience, it is contrived and misconstrued into a personal attack. And this is just not true with me. I would hope any open forum is available for the sharing of ideas, even stupid ones, without a lot of extraneous personality issues.

Ideas are like children: your own are always the best.

Grant


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## Stanghellini (Jan 16, 2005)

I still think a few people are missing the point of the entire debate - and debate is all this was - which was simply a question of chemical concentration. Many compounds that have a risk when concentrated are perfectly safe when in small doses and/or diluted. In my opinion, any link between Listerine, Vicks, etc, and concentrated thymol is erroneous - they are incomparable. And as Jim points out - so are any safety relationships between pure acetic acid and vinegar. By the way, the acetic acid document given above was not for "0.1%" - it was for a 0.1 Normal concentration. There is a difference.

to stonybrook - your comments about me above are rather personal, jab-like, and intended as a challenge - but I'll mostly overlook all that since this is not a personal matter. I've never claimed that what I post here is beyond reproach. People have the perfect right to question what I say, and they have the perfect right to "annoy" me if they feel like it. I rarely get annoyed, but do find it both amusing and perplexing that my being at a university automatically makes me some kind of villain when I offer a simple counterargument. Regarding the alleged "legal council" you seem to think I offered P.R., I'm sure the Bar Association can recognize sarcasm. As for your "evidence" into thymol's non-reactivity with plastics, did your "research" extend beyond the limits of Google? I said "could have" (impacted the plastic), not "did". Please take the time to carefully read and understand what people write before you offer a counterargument. And when you do, try to spend more time on making a valid argument and less time on being "clever". Jim eroded your entire premise with just a little legwork.

If someone sends me a MSDS on pure thymol that says it's safe, gentle, non-corrosive, etc. - I will immediately and wholeheartedly retract everything I have said, and will send flowers and puppies and snowcones to everyone on this thread.


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## Sungold (May 11, 2003)

I didn't think Mike's comment had anything to do with Dr. R's work. To me the focus was simply on "safety in handling thymol". At one concentration a chemical can be a medicine, at another it's a poision. Same chemical, different concentrations, different results.

Mike,
Thanks for caring about the safety of others.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I tried sending "flowers and puppies and snowcones"
to someone once, but the flowers wilted, the
puppy chewed his way out of the box and was 
never seen again, and the snowcone melted. ^.^


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## Stanghellini (Jan 16, 2005)

Addendum: In the event that the flowers, puppies, and snowcones each come to an early demise, I will simply issue a formal apology (written in snowcone juice on a pressed matrix of flower flour and puppy hair).


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## stonybrook (Aug 23, 2004)

Stanghellini,

Thank you for taking the time to clarify to me your opinion and counterargument to the relationship between vics/listerine/etc.. and pure thymol. The tone of your position when offering your opinion in the reply to me was quite a bit more reasonable (not admonishing) than that you were using when you described. Dr. R's comparisons of being "absurd". 

In response to me making "Jab-Like" comments about your credentials, and involvement with the university, etc. - I was being sarcastic with you: sarcasm of about the same level you were using in one of your responses to Dr R. that went something like: "I'm not worried that God will punish me.." which was a direct jab by you at Dr. R's religious beliefs. Esssentially you got a a bit of "your own medicine". I was also being sarcastic when I made the comment about the New Jersey Bar "thrashing" you - Did you actually read into that comment ("meershaum" pipe and all) that I actually thought the Bar Association was going to literally put you over their knee and spank you? Please Mike. What I was doing, was using about the same level of sarcasm and admonishing tone that you were using when you queried Dr R. about having liability Insurance. I observed (with perhaps the same amusement as you) you felt it personal, and reacted in just about the same manner as someone else who was being publically chided.

Also in your response to me you wrote that "People have the perfect right to question what you say". Yes they do, which is exactly why, in my original post I was making: "Jab-like" comments in response to Jims message (his message on your bahalf) that said exactly the opposite: In fact I'm sure his words were: "Jims Credentials are impeccable, and I say this so someone does not make the error of trying to argue the point...things are simply not open to debate" "make the error of trying to argue"? Who is Jim to tell anyone (in this case that anyone being "Me") that any subject is "not open to debate" ? - that is what I took exception to, and sarcastically sniped back at jim in my message. - I also observed (again, with amusement) that Jim did not appreciate being spoken down to either, nor did he pay the slightest heed to me saying that my comments were not open to debate.

Lastly in response to my research on the reactivity of thymol and plastic expanded beyond google searches.. As a matter of fact, I sure did! - I not only researched it using google, but used "alta-vista" and chem-trec's database in my online searching. As I stated in my original post, I am by no means a chemist (In fact, I believe I referred to my own credentials as "peckable " (read that "questionable") - again, more sarcasm directed this time at myself) - However I have been involved in the Pyrotechnic industry for the past 20 years, 16 of those years as a holder of a BATF explosives license. As a result of obtaining (and keeping) this license , I do have a tiny bit (for once, no sarcasm intended at all here - it is: Limited Experience) of experience with the research, handling and storage of organic chemicals, acids, oxidizers, plastics, accelerants, bases, metals, toxics and HAZMAT in general - and a fairly sizable stack of documentation and data that accompanies many of these substances. I also have the extra great benefit of living in back yard of Pfizer Pharmaceutical's Research and development division (New London/Groton Ct), and being fairly close friends with several of the staff chemists, who are happy to field my questions. I used all of those resources in my research on the thymol reacting with plastic. I originally did the research (purely out of my own curiosity) back several months ago when the gentleman originally made the post about the melting plastic tray (as I happen to use an old Ohaus balance scale with plastic trays & brass weights for my chemical measurments) In not one place did I find any indication of thymol reacting with any form of plastic or polymer construct in general. 

And just for the record - you did not say "impacted the plastic", you said "corroded the plastic" (of which there is just a bit of difference in the two meanings), Therefore, I did carefully read, and counterargue to exactly what it was you said - and my reply back to you - if you're going to quote yourself - take the time and care to make sure you are requoting yourself accurately in your counter-counter arguments - so there









Now, with no sarcasm intended: If you have any kind of documentation or data to support an example where thymol reacted with plastic I would be very interested in seeing it. I would like to understand exactly what was going on, and why the gentlemans plastic was pitted by what he is sure was 100% pure thymol crystals. 

Lastly, and most importantly - I'll happily send slush-puppies, Connecticut Sweet Pollen *and* 50% of my remaining batch of wild pear wine to You (mike), Jim (whom I do secretly hold and have applied his *beekeeping* advice with the highest regard), Dr. Rodriguez (whom I dearly hope has not truly abandoned this forum) and anyone else who has had to bear through the debate. (Jim - you dont have to tell me you wouldnt touch my "Chemically tainted pollen" with a 10 foot pole - I know, I know...)

Cheers all.


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## Stanghellini (Jan 16, 2005)

Hahaha - ok, Stonybrook - point taken - to be fair, though, I wasn't the one who brought up credentials, and to get chided for it is what drew my reponse. Anyway, I think this whole topic, were it a dead horse, is now thoroughly beaten into paste. But for the sake of closure (on my part):

You're right, I should have used "wrong" instead of "absurd". I stand my ground on that subject though - so I guess I am guilty of "groundstanding" (as opposed to grandstanding). As for the religious comment - I truly meant no harm - was just responding to P.R.'s comment that indicated that, paraphrased, "(people who disagree with him) will have God as their judge" - which I thought was a strange thing to say. Again, I should have just ignored that. I am only human.

Lastly, on plastics, Apiguard (which I think is 30% thymol in gel) comes in a plastic tray - so obviously thymol doesn't impact (read, corrode) all plastics. Maybe it doesn't corrode any of them. Only one way to find out. I have 1 kg of pure thymol - so let me run a few little tests.

To all readers - I hope you simply find this whole thread amusing or interesting or something, anything, that is not negative. Beekeepers like to discuss, dissect, and analyze things. It's our nature. I call a truce, though none is needed.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Jim - you dont have to tell me you wouldnt touch 
> my "Chemically tainted pollen" with a 10 foot pole

A pollen trap collects pollen from foragers, and
should be emptied every day if used, so I don't
see how anyone would worry about "tainted" pollen.
It would never even enter the hive, would it?

> ..."will have God as their judge"...

Now that WAS absurd!

The bees are our judges - God clearly delegated
the task.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>I wasn't the one who brought up credentials...

On another topic, a month or two back, it was I who first mentioned Mike and the C word when another beekeeper was exchanging posts with Mike about feral colonies. I butted into the fray and mentioned Mikes credentials to the other person. 

All this has been my fault.......


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## BeeBear (Jan 20, 2004)

>> All this has been my fault.......

Thank you for taking the blame. Maybe this thread can now die.

And in honor of Usenet, I will mention that today is Adolf Hitler's birthday.

A few of you Usenet oldtimers will understand the reference. The rest of you . . . just go on with your real life.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> And in honor of Usenet, I will mention 
> that today is...

Today is 4/20, dude! It is now 4:13pm EDT,
so in 7 minutes, it will be 4:20 on 4/20.

...and if you don't know what "4/20" means,
that's OK - it just shows that you did NOT
have a misspent youth.


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## Ricko (May 18, 2004)

Okay, I hope the smoke has cleared over this argument for me to get a question in. Dr. Rodriguez always makes it a point to specify "pure quality" Thymol. Now HennaJoy posted that she has some Thymol for sale. Immediately, Dr.P posts, to beware of the quality (you only get what you pay for). Almost as if he doesn't care for the HennaJoy Thymol. Yet he only has limited amounts that he brought back from Spain with him for his researce and to part with some to others.
Jim Fischer asked him to define the source of his "pure quality" Thymol. I think this would be great as we could all then purchase the best. 
Instead Dr.P seems to skirt the question by saying that it's the same used by the manufactures of ApiLifeGuard! So I still don't have the information needed to secure the best Thymol! So come on Dr.P, spill the beans!
As for the rest of the argument, well I guess you just have to use good old "common sense" when dealing with chemicals. You even have to use common sense while playing with the bees!


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## stonybrook (Aug 23, 2004)

> a point to specify "pure quality" Thymol. Now HennaJoy posted that she has some Thymol for sale. Immediately, Dr.P posts, to beware of the quality (you only get what you pay for). Almost as if he doesn't care for the HennaJoy Thymol.


That is a good question, since I myself have been using thymol I got from none other than henna-joy.

Dr R. can you shed some light on this?


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
I do not know the quality or specifications of any other thymol than that which I am using for my tests hence I have not made any comments about the purity or strength of any other thymol than that which I have tested. I have not made any qualifying or disqualifying statements about thymol other than that which I have tested. 
My comments referenced above were made in light of the statment posted on this forum indicating that the person posting was attempting to weigh the thymol he was about to use on his wife's scales and that the thymol had "tarnished" or discolored the scales. 
I have constantly wsrned about utilizing thymol of known properties in order to eliminate the posibility of introducing foreign residues into the hive environment. I was attempting to warn against purchasing bargain products (without making reference to any one in particular). It is a well-known fact that better quality assets cost more than comparable lower quality assets in just about any commodity in the market. 
It is up to the individual consumer to determine what products he/she wishes to obtain knowing that cost/price may have a definite link to quality. 
The specifications of the thymol that I have used for my tests guarantee a minimum 98.5 percent purity. 
Again, my comments never intend to compare or contrast any type of thymol that may be marketed by any individual or organization.
Very best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Good morning folks.
Just for availability at the forum archives. Does anyone know what is the guaranteed minimum percentage of purity displayed on the labels of the thymol sold by Jenna? Or any other distributor in the US market?
Very best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I am sure this has been asked countless times but.......... Where do I get good thymol??


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Dear fellow contributors to this forum.
I have threatened to quit writing to this forum many times because I felt that my personal sacrifices in search of ways to assist beekeepers were being unjustly criticized. It should be clear that I have ignored those comments and continued to share with you my humble comments. 
WARNING! Please do NOT make idle comments about my faith! My believe in God Almighty is mine and I consider it sacred. I will definitely quit any forum or what ever in which my faith is chided.
Have a wonderful day and may The Good Lord continue to enlighten all of us.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

This is just a starter to locate thymol,Pharma 89-83-8 say 99% pure crystal.

http://tinyurl.com/8q25n

Will post url where you can search all chemicals and suppliers and contact details in another post.


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

Thymol crystal H&R Product No.620 050.My Product data sheet lists German,French & Spanish.

This URL may assist to search out suppliers, with their email contact details.

http://tinyurl.com/8mssa


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## HennaJoy (Mar 5, 2004)

My Thymol Crystals are organic, Pharmaceutical Grade and 99% purity. I am quite aware of how beekeepers use Thymol and have taken care to assure the quality of Thymol that I obtain will meet their needs. 

Hope this is helpful in answering the question. 

Blessings...

HennaJoy
EveryDay Mehndi
http://www.everydayhenna.com


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## Ricko (May 18, 2004)

I have PM'd HennaJoy to see if she would tell us what the purity of her Thymol is.

Dr. P, I'm very disappointed in you. You profess to be working for the benefit of all mankind in eradication of the V mite in honeybees, yet you remain evasive in giving out information on where to obtain this high quality Thymol that you claim is a must for treatment. Are you looking to make a windfall in revenue on personal Thymol sales? Is this the reason you're not divulging the information?

Now as for your religion, neither I nor anyone else, that I can see since your last post has made any negative remarks on this forum concerning what you believe. Why do you chastise us openly as though we were degrading what you believe on this forum? I for one, don't care what you believe. Just in case should you want to discuss religion, I'd be more than happy to do it openly with you on the Tailgater portion of this forum, but as for this FGMO section I thought it was for the betterment of beekeeping in the fight against the V mite by all?

I guess what it's going to take is for someone to take the ball. Contact some chemical company and explain to them that if they can provide Thymol at a high grade of purity, at a reasonable price, then there would be a lot of beekeepers interested in ordering some of their product. Post the results here and we can make our purchase and move on! 
Answer just two simple questions is all! Purity / cost.
Now Dr. P, if you'd like to help here, then fine. But enough of the games already! The answer may already be in our laps. As soon as HennaJoy gets back with us, the problem may be solved, otherwise further inquiry is needed. Personally, I've bought HennaJoy's product and used it without any adverse effects.

There it is, I just did a check of the forum and HennaJoy has remarked: >My Thymol Crystals are organic, Pharmaceutical Grade and 99% purity.

There you have it! But just in case, HennaJoy can you provide a label to back up your statement just in case there is a "Doubting Thomas" out there?

Now can we move on yet?


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## HennaJoy (Mar 5, 2004)

Hi Ricko,

Will the MSDS Sheet with chemical analysis information help? I tend to keep this information out in the open. There is a link on my website to the MSDS sheet with information related to the analysis of the Thymol Crystals. The latest MSDS sheet related to my latest shipment of Thymol will be up as soon as my webperson gets to it. But anyone at anytime can check the link provided on my website (same as the following link) at anytime to find the information they need regarding the Thymol Crystals I sell. Here is the link:
http://www.everydayhenna.com/pdfs/thymol_msds.pdf

I think the MSDS sheet is what you will want with the chemical analysis information on it in order to determine purity of the product. After determining purity of the product, then you can compare prices. Hope this helps.

Blessings...

HennaJoy
EveryDay Mehndi
http://www.everydayhenna.com


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## stonybrook (Aug 23, 2004)

Henna,

thank you kindly for providing the data on your crystals - Like I said in an earlier post. I have been using your thymol for the past couple years in FGMO mixtures, and I have also done some experimentation with disolving the crystals into ethanol, and soaking dry-loc pads in the solution, allowing the alcohol to evaporate and them placing the thymol saturated pads on the top-bars (kind of like the apilife VAR product).

Thanks again!

ps: without intending to re-ignite any kind of technical detail "firestorm": It is very interesting to note the MSDS for your Thymol crystals at 99% pure does does not list it as overly hazardous, corrosive or reactive with anything at all. (although the MSDS does advise contacting a physician or Poison control center if you do somehow manage eat it!) Anyhow, everyone can read the MSDS for themselves.

This Thymol Crystal MSDS (the one on hennas www site) is quite a bit less terrifying than the one we were looking at earlier in this thread. 

Of course common sense (of which I know I often lack!) would dictate one to trust the MSDS that offers the most warnings - err on the side of conservatism where safety is concerned I think "they" say









Can anyone make sense of the insanity!

heh

Happy bee-ing!

-t


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

This will most definitely be my last post on this forum: FOREVER! 
I have dedicated eleven years of work and THOUSANDS of dollars out my own pension, and this is the thanks that I get? 
The FGMO/thymol concept is well established. Thanks to those who have given me moral support and trusted my work. 
I have always stood firm on my wishes NOT to make any type of gain based on my FGMO work and I stand pat on my objectives. 
As for the challenge to discuss religion with anyone at any place, I say DEFINITGELY NOT! I go to church for communion with God (in any country where I may be found) and feel that is all that I require for the salvation of my soul which is my only terrestrial goal.
Good-bye and may God bless us all.
In Him, I pray. 
Enough said 
Dr. Pedro Rodriguez


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

How much thymol to how much FGMO??

Thanks


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## Ricko (May 18, 2004)

Okay then good Dr. I'll take your most recent comments as a NO, to helping us locate a high purity grade of Thymol! 

HennaJoy, thank you so much for the information you've supplied now and in the future. I'm sorry you had to be pulled into this negative discussion.
Like I've said and stonybrook has confirmed, we've both used your product without any adverse effects. So, I believe HennaJoy does supply what we are in searce of!
Sundance, I'm sure someone will be kind enough to share that information,and then we can move on! This has been a long walk!


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## stonybrook (Aug 23, 2004)

> How much thymol to how much FGMO??

Hi Bruce,

Dr R's detailed instructions (which include his recommended quantities) can be found at:

http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/abjmar2004.htm


Those are the ratios I have used in all my FGMO experience.

-cheers


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanks stony and hennajoy for supplying thymol.

I am interested that if you add thymol to syrup it retards spoilage.

Dr. R I hope you reconcider and continue your input as all ideas are welcome.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I'm going to tip toe into this minefield just long enough to give a link to using thymol as an anti-fungal in syrup.This information has been around for many years.If you can get a copy of Manleys Honey Farming book its well worth having.
http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/thymolx1.html


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## stonybrook (Aug 23, 2004)

Logger - 

Thanks for the URL to the thymol anti-fungal/anti-spoil. If one pokes around and follows some of the links on that page, one will eventually come across a page that describes the "franko thymol frame" - Which is kind of a novel way to utilize plain thymol crystals by evaporation/sublimation in the hive. 

A bit of ways down the page the author claims that thymol is a "good at controlling chalkbrood"

It has been my observation that ever since I have been doing the FGMO/Thymol fogging I have barely seen a trace of chalkbrood in my hives here in CT, and I used to see it quite frequently. I have no way of being sure that the Thymol has anything to do with the decline in chalkbrood cases and perhaps its simply co-incidence. Just an interesting bit of info on other aspects of thymol usage










-t


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## Neubee (Mar 23, 2005)

Could thymol have any effect on AFB then?

APK


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## stonybrook (Aug 23, 2004)

Hi Apk,

I did some google searching after I read about that gentlemans (franko frame guy) comments about the chalkbrood. And found quite a few other references to thymol being used to combat chalkbrood. A fairly detailed study appears to have been done by/for the Govt of Australia that tested several oils including thymol against chalkbrood and appears to have been positive.

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/01-150.pdf


In reference to thymol helping combat AFB, I was able to locate several references of persons "reporting" that Thymol was used to help prevent AFB, and I did locate a study done on thymol (and other aromatic oils) and their effectiveness against afb.

http://www.hereintown.net/~rnoel/alippi4.htm


I've (thankfully!) never had a hive infected with foulbrood so I dont have any personal observation to offer on it and thymol. I can say though, as above: I used to see chalkbrood all over my bee-yard, mummies in my collected pollen, etc.. now, I cannot recall even seeing a trace of chalkbrood since about the time I started using the thymol/fgmo fogging as part of my varroa control. I really hadnt even thought about any connection until I read that gentlemans reference.


cheers

t


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## Henry (Sep 17, 2004)

Stoneybrook, I have read the directions for the fogger and still don't get it. You have to dilute it first and mix it again?
Henry


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## Neubee (Mar 23, 2005)

Stonybrook,
Thanks for the info. I've had a small run in with chalkbrood and I'm going to start using FGMO/thymol as soon as possible.

APK


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## stonybrook (Aug 23, 2004)

> I have read the directions for the fogger and still don't get it. You have to dilute it first and mix it again?


Hi Henry,

I am by no means the expert on FGMO & Thymol, More like a satisfied user - I utilize many methods for varroa control, FGMO/Thymol being one of them.

Dr. R's Instructions for preparing the FGMO can be found here on the beesource site at the
url:

http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/abjmar2004.htm 

Basically the procedure for preparing the Thymol/FGMO mix (following all saftey precautions working with the thymol) is to combine the proper measurement of thymol crystals into the FGMO and *gently warm* the oil/thymol mix in a double boiler, allowing the thymol crystals to disolve into the oil.(again, Please carefully look at the procedure that Dr. R. outlines in his instructions for the heating) Once the the thymol has completely dissolved, the FGMO/Thymol mixture will be crystal clear. The crystals will stay disolved in the Mineral Oil even after it cools back to room temperature. (If the mixture gets very cold (I have never measured the exact temps, but approximately mid 30's or colder) - the Thymol will start recrystalizing in the oil and drop to the bottom of whatever container you have them the mixture in. Since they have not completely recrystalized, they precipitate out kind of like a crystal "mush" - You can re-disolve it by simply warming the mixture in even a moderately hot water bath until the mixture becomes once again crystal clear. (I've done this with the hot water that comes out of the kitchen tap in my house)


It is this fgmo/disolved thymol mixture that is then placed in the fogger and 'fogged' into the hives.

Many people simply use plain FGMO w/o thymol. As I said in an earlier post - I generally use the FGMO/Thymol twice weekly in the early spring (before I start harvesting pollen and/or honey). During the summer I use plain FGMO (no thymol) twice weekly, and back to the FGMO/Thymol in the fall. I have several times used the FGMO/Thymol mix on hives during honey flows and personally never noticed any residual "thymol taste", and none of the people I have given the comb sections (ross rounds) could taste anything funny in the honey either.

I of course am a small sized beekeeper, and generally never work more than 10-15 hives at the most - for someone with a large number of hives my personal fogging methods would probably be too time consuming and labour intensive









Now that you have a basic description of how are mixing up the FGMO, please refer to Dr. R's detailed instructions for making the mixture.

happy bee-ing!

-t


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## JJ (Jun 22, 2004)

Well I believe the Dr. is gone this time. Might make alot of people happy. Not me, The Dr. has forgotten more than alot of people on this forum will ever know. It will be a very big loss for all of us. The remark made about Pedro making money off the THYMOL, I dont think so the Dr. never could get all the monies he has spent of his own back. (as to FGMO&THYMOL). The Dr. never said that someone elses THYMOL was not pure, He always said to be sure that it was pure. I really can not believe he was treated the way he was and all he was trying to do is help with the mite problem. Well I will be the first to say, Dr. you have done a great job as to helping with the mite problem. I say thanks to all the help you have given me and alot of other beekeepers. Take care and GOD BLESS YOU PEDRO. jj


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

New to this section and obviously missed the insults and can't seem to locate the offensive accusations.

Could someone please cut and paste the offesive accusations regarding Dr. R's religon and profiteering on thymol?

I would have no problem wheather or not Dr. R made profit from his valuable efforts. He certainly has the right to.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Could someone please cut and paste the offesive accusations regarding Dr. R's religon and profiteering on thymol?

Dr. Pedro Rodreiguez: Todate, no one in the "white coats" has made the slightest attempt at replicating my work or findings. Why? I could offer a lot of reasons, but I will let God be their judge.... Have a wonderful day and God bless all including FGMO detractors. 

Stanghellini: And at the risk of being flippant, I am comfortable that God will not punish me for my choice. 

Dr. Pedro Rodriguez: I am an extremely devout person thus I would never ever wish harm on any one and much less ask God to punish others. On the contrary, many times a day I ask God to "forgive my offenses as I forgive those who offend me". Does this sound familiar? It should if you ever went to a Christian service. But in your angered mind you thought other than what I meant.

Stanghellini: As for the religious comment - I truly meant no harm - was just responding to P.R.'s comment that indicated that, paraphrased, "(people who disagree with him) will have God as their judge" - which I thought was a strange thing to say.

Ricko: Dr. P, I'm very disappointed in you. You profess to be working for the benefit of all mankind in eradication of the V mite in honeybees, yet you remain evasive in giving out information on where to obtain this high quality Thymol that you claim is a must for treatment. Are you looking to make a windfall in revenue on personal Thymol sales? Is this the reason you're not divulging the information?


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## Ricko (May 18, 2004)

>Could someone please cut and paste the offesive accusations regarding Dr. R's religon and profiteering on thymol?

Dr. P >Caution!
You only get what you pay for.


Dr. P > Dear Dan and others.
I have been constantly warning about 
the need to obtain pure quality 
thymol.

Jim Fischer >Perhaps it would help to define the source of the specific thymolyou use, and provide a product number or name. 




Jim Fischer >As far as "Pure thymol is gentle and non corrosive" goes, I still await a specific vendor name and ordering number so that we can obtain samples of this unique form of thymol apparently never before offered in the USA. 

Sundance > I am sure this has been asked countless times but... Where do I get good thymol??


Ricko > So I still don't have the information needed to secure the best Thymol! So come on Dr.P, spill the beans!

Michael, I have to disagree with you including my statement in your list, as an accusation or charge of wrong doing! 
My statement was in the form of a question, to help me better understand why Dr. P has not given his source of supply after 4 attempts by various people to gain access to the same sourch of material. If his intention is to make a profit from the sale of Thymol, then all he had to do was say so. I'd then certainly understand why he doesn't want to name his source.
HennaJoy sells it at a profit I'm sure, and no one is hammering her for doing so!
It seems like a childish game being played here,I have something different and special and you don't na,na,na!
On the otherhand, I didn't hear him say: Hey, I'm giving away free, my special Thymol that's different than yours and of which you can't obtain! Didn't hear that either!
As for his work,thanks Dr. R for doing it. I'll give it a try, if it works fine, if not, I'll move on to something else. Am I detecting a degree of paranoia in all this?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I was not trying to pick on you. The question was about references to "profiteering on thymol" and that was the only reference I could see to it. I'm not saying what you meant by it. Just that you said "Are you looking to make a windfall in revenue on personal Thymol sales?" And that is the only reference I can see that could be taken that way. I did my best to leave it in the context you said it in. I was not attempting to take sides on any of this.


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## JJ (Jun 22, 2004)

MB, I havent seen anything you wrote that had a thing to do with making a profit on THYMOL. Ive never heard the Dr. say anything about making money on the THYMOL. All i have ever heard the Dr. say is make sure it is pure. The remarks above are to do with the purity of the THYMOL. I now can see why things get so turned around. Take care JJ


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanks for the references. It looks to me as just a misunderstanding and over reaction by all parties. Some fairly thin skin on both sides of this non-issue.

Even my honest, innocent question of where to get thymol was apparently taken as a smart arse remark. It was not. 

Remember that this is a free flowing forum of ideas. Everyone must be able to make their thoughts heard without "flaming" one and other. In this thread, I saw no "flaming", just easily blistered skin.


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## BandonBee (Aug 9, 2003)

I did not plan on kicking the DOG SHI* that has surfaced on this thread since it will only make it smell worse. 
BUT I must admonish the offensive, insensitive few who have succeeded in driving Dr. R from this list. You may be the same people who drove him from the Bee-L. I can remember when he tried to share his experiences there but finally gave up after the same type of treatment he has received on this thymol thread. 
There is so much repetition in the many posts of this thread that I actually found myself trying to find something that was intended to be new in the discussion about is thymol safe or unsafe. Is not the real issue: does Thymol mixed with FGMO work? According to the thread it does work for some, so that in and of itself helps those people. For those of you who do not use it or do not want to use it, why do you really care about influencing those who may use it or may want to try to use it in the future? 
I hope you few, who have injured Dr. R, will feel some remorse, and apologize to the good man.
Dr. R, thank you for inviting those of us who admire and respect your sensitive and honorable nature to communicate with you privately. I hope you can put your pride in proper prospective and stop having only a few people impact your work and your effort to help those of us who appreciate your humanity. 
Doug
Rule, Reap and Respect What Nature Gave Us.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

To Doug and the many others who have taken time and effort to communicate with me, thanks for your comforting thoughts. 
My pride will most likely survive and keep giving me desire to continue in search of the ideals that The Lord has given me. 
What deters my will are the insensitive comments about my Christian humane good will for my fellow humans and casted doubts about my honesty. 
I am positively certain The Lord will continue to enlighten my thoughts and to give me the ability to forgive those who offend me as is my God,s command to ask forgiveness from whom I offend. In HIM, 
Dr. Rodriguez
P.S. 
I am certain that my comments will continue to arouse resentment and discord on this forum, hence my desire to abstain from posting on it. You are all most certainly invited to continue to write to my e-mail address or to call me on the phone. 
[email protected]
757-486-1573


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

done
God bless


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## clintonbemrose (Oct 23, 2001)

I cannot believe what BS is going on in this forem acusing Dr R of all this. I find it dishonorable of people to do this slandering a helping hand.
Dr. R has always helped me without compensation and I am a professional. As of now I leave this slanderous group
Sorry Barry
Dr. Clinton Bemrose PhD.


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