# Horizontal Hive Styles- What should I consider?



## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

I'm in NC so the weather is different but I am familiar with the Layens Hive and the long hive. I have a long hive in service in my bee yard (48" deep). My long hive can use both Langstroth frames and top bars with side and bottom bars. Sometimes I put a couple of bars in Langstroth just to get comb started and I use the rear of my long hive as a nuc area to have a spare Queen going into winter (pic in my profile/album). Whichever hive you choose be sure you get the book on the Layens Hive. The frame manipulation for spring and winter prep is an absolute requirement to be successful with these hives. This forum is a lot of help if you run into problems but do some reading/studying/talking with a mentor before you buy anything. Good luck and Happy Beekeeping.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Hi Alanna,

Welcome to BeeSource! I, too, am in upstate NY, north of Albany.

You may be dismayed to hear this, but I will pass on to you the very best tip I got as a new beginner: instead of trying one of the more esoteric, uncommon, designs for my bee boxes, go with plain, 10-frame Langstroth equipment. That's what I am still using today.

The various alternative designs seemed to imply some special, almost magical, advantage. This is simply not true. Your bees won't be healthier, or easier to work, or more "natural" in any way that's different. But you will be locking yourself out of all kinds of useful secondary equipment and tools. And you will be locking yourself in to a beekeeping practice that is less-common which, in turn, will limit your options for getting pertinent assistance and advice at the beginning.

Can you successfully keep bees in Layens, Lazutin and long Langs? Of course, it's just that it may be harder to do, especially in our cold climate. And there is no advantage to be gained from them.

Once you've gotten bees and kept them alive and healthy in "standard" equipment for 2 or 3 years, you will have the experience to be able to more-successfully switch over to some of the less-common styles of hives, just for fun. Don't worry about your Lang equipment becoming surplus. By then you will want to have more hives, so the new bees can go in the special equipment, keeping your original ones as safety resources for your experiments

There's a reason for the ubiquity of Lang stuff: it works very well, it's easy (well, sort of) to learn how to use and it suits the bees quite well. I always feel a little anxiety when a new beekeeper comes here and seems much taken with the fringe styles of hives. Beekeeping is complicated to do well, these days. There is no special benefit to be gained from box design, despite what you may have read.

Keep it simple - you life as first year beekeeper will be a challenging enough.

Nancy


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

enjambres said:


> Can you successfully keep bees in *Layens, Lazutin* and long Langs? Of course, *it's just that it may be harder to do, especially in our cold climate. *
> 
> Nancy


Incorrect.
Layens/Lazutin ARE superior for colder climates.
That's what they are best for (at the expense of extra bulk). 
Do realize - these hives are equivalent to Lang double-deep bodies by default (each frame at once is equivalent to two Lang deep frames OR deeper).
Long Lang - NOT so good for climate (doable, just less optimal).



> Beekeeping is complicated to do well,


Speaking of simple...
If not colder climate here (zone 4/5) I would just run simple top bar boxes and be done. 
Now that is simple. Already kind of drift to top bar haves in many ways... 
I have not even done frames much lately. Not required.

Why rehash things again?
Read the discussion here:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?341887-Horizontal-deep-hives&highlight=horizontal


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Murdock said:


> ... be sure you get the book on the Layens Hive. The frame manipulation for spring and winter prep is an absolute requirement to be successful with these hives. ..


This sounds overly complicated.
Actually, you may do totally nothing and nothing bad will happen. 
Just fill the hive with frames and go away. Come back when have time, month or two or three later.

Traditional horizontal, large hives are simple and the maintenance is simple and pretty much an autopilot. 
That is the intent.
Remember - horizontal hives are peasant hives.
Traditionally, peasants kept tens and hundreds of such hives all over.
They checked them once in spring (added frames) and once in fall (removed frames). 
That all the time the peasants had for the beekeeping just as a side-business.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@Greg:

Thanks for the link, I remember your posts on the subject, and the amazing pictures. But you are clearly an experienced beekeeper who is working on the outer edges of novelty hives using that experience to help you manage/invent/workaround any problems that may come up. 

The OP, by her own statement has never had bees before. If the Layens or Lazutin style of hive is as good as a Lang double deep, then why not just start with double deeps, particularly with your first bees? I run triple deeps specifically because I want the verticality of them in my long cold winters. But I can achieve that with standard equipment, that comes apart into easily moveable, interchangeable, standard pieces and runs pretty much like everybody else's bee boxes. Without trying tricky things like rotating my frames on end and cleating them together.

So, to the OP, here's a guy who successfully uses Layens/Lazutin equipment in a climate that's much colder than either of ours. And he says, and I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve him, that they do fine in cold weather. Note his small caveat re long Langs and cold winters, which is what I see, as well, here when I have beginning students using long Langs. Bees like, and may be need, to move upwards more than sideways during the winter as they work through their winter stores, so long Langs which are only 9 5/8 high don't give much chance of that. 

I would still recommend starting with standard equipment while you build your experience and skills. But Greg V is a useful, practical, resource for you if you choose to go that route. 

Either way, I hope you have lots of fun with your bees (otherwise, what's the point?)

Nancy


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## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

In TODAY'S bee world , at least in the South, if you walk away for a couple of months and don't check them the mites and SHB will have a feast. If I didn't have some hive intervention every 2 weeks I would not have bees very long. I run double deep Landstroths and a deep 48" long hive because I believe in large hives, large frames so the girls have resources to fight off invaders, but I also enjoy interacting/handling my bees. New beeks need to learn the basics first, the KISS principle works, and every bee keeper needs an experienced mentor.


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## lobottomee (May 3, 2015)

Welcome,

I can't help you decide what to do, but I can steer you towards more information and give some of my own thoughts. The three hives designs you mentioned all would be considered "horizontal" hives. The Lazutin and the Layens would be considered a deep horizontal hive, whereas the long long would not generally be considered the same. 

You'll find a lot of information on the Lazutin's and other Eastern European and Russian deep hives, but it's helpful to understand Russian as there are few translations out there. Dr. Leo Sharashkin translated Fyodor Lazutin's book into English and is also a proponent of the deep horizontal type hive (you can find free Lazutin's book in original Russian online). The deep horizontal hives as used Russia are designed for severe cold weather and long winters. They have thick insulation, and the large deep frames are intended to provide plenty of stores for the bees during the winter. The principle is that bees like to move vertically over the frames rather than horizontally across frames so a deep hive winters better. The same can accomplished by stacking conventional Langstroth boxes, with the one difference being the gap between the top of one frame and the bottom of the next. Theory is that the bees don't like to cross that gap, so a single deep frame is better. I can say that I personally have not seen evidence of that and I successfully winter colonies using 4 shallows stacked up. (BTW, I am even further north than Enj and routinely see 25-30 below zero in the winter. 

In my opinion, the use of insulation and moisture control are the most significant non-biological factors impacting successful wintering in cold climates. You'll notice that all the deep hives used in Russia have thick insulated walls and use insulating quilts over the frames. I've seen pillows, dry wood shavings, polystyrene, and others as well. I myself use thick lumber construction and then in the winter add additional insulation to the walls of my hives, and then I add a foot thick layer of dry wood shavings on the top. You can accomplish the same thing no matter what type of hive you decide on.

In response to specific questions; _what do I need to consider?_ You need to decide what you want out of beekeeping. Do you want to make honey? Pollinate the garden? Grow additional colonies? Do you have physical limitations lifting heavy boxes? Do you want to move your hives around? I can say this, the deep horizontals are heavy and you won't move them by yourself, whereas Langs and other conventional types can be moved one box at a time.
_Can I modify a Layens hive to have Lazutin frame dimensions?_ Yes. 

_Or is it wiser to just build a Lazutin style hive and insulate it?_ You can do that too. But no matter what kind of hive you decide to build I would recommend insulating it. 

_What is the difference for the bees between a Layens (depth of 15 15/16) and a Lazutin (depth of 18 1/2)? _ There is none. They will take advantage of what's available. Frame sizes have more to do with construction than what the bees want. In answer to your next question, I don't think that matters much either where you live. 14 Layens frames packed with stores should get you through winter just fine, especially if you add good insulation and moisture control. 

good luck!

This site has some nice information .. http://www.mellifera.de/einraumbeute (if you use Chrome you can translate. Also, if you turn on transcripts or auto-translate in Youtube you can get rough translations to English in videos.

Layens hives are popular in Spain and Portugal so google local beekeeping sites there.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Long langs work great and are easy to use and maintain. Beekeeping is the management of bees for the betterment of both beekeepers and honeybee. Leaving your hives alone for months (except during winter) is not beekeeping it is bee having.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

> Leaving your hives alone for months (except during winter) is not beekeeping it is bee having.


And what is wrong exactly with "bee having"?

Nothing. 
Even though some use this term ("bee having") as a sort of "put down".

Here is a use case for you - try long distance "bee having" using standard Langs. 
How about trying this with your bees 300-400 miles away. 
You are going to drive there every weekend? Maybe not?

Well, people are doing exactly this long-distance "bee having" using large horizontal hives and doing it well.
Multi-body Langs (or Dadants) are not looking pretty at all at such setup.
Most every one watched that video by Sol Parker what happens when multi-body hives are left alone with cows around. 
You can keep a large chest hive and cows together - not a problem. It does not tip over.


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## lobottomee (May 3, 2015)

I agree with GregV. One of my goals is to build a method (and equipment) that let's me minimize visits and manipulations. Deep horizontal and/or chest hives can go a long way towards meeting the goals. Common sense tells me that frequent hive manipulations create stress for the bees, so I improve their well being by minimizing my intrusions.

That's not to say that I'm negligent in taking care of them, only that I do what is necessary.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Alanna, I am going into my third year and am still finding my way. I agree with Enjambres. Keep it simple until you are comfortable with managing bees in a hive that every beekeeper can help you with. I have seen so many people on this site fail because they reach for their ultimate goal before they know the basics. I have to ask why you have decided that a standard Langstroth isn't a good choice for you? J


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fivej said:


> ....I have to ask why you have decided that a standard Langstroth isn't a good choice for you? J


My standard answers:

- ergonomics (enough said to re-re-repeat...)
- easy and direct access to ENTIRE colony (not only top X frames) while doing it GRADUALLY and have control of how large is the exposure (especially important with hot bees)
- (my favorite) you can actually keep hot bees with minimal hassle (if you want to be TF, you want be able to keep hot bees if that what it takes)
- mobile and long distance model of "bee having"; you pre-set the large horizontal hive *once *with frames and bees will autonomously run it for long stretches at a time (talking of months if needs to be); 
you CAN visit them as often as desired/feasible, but this is NOT required;
with vertical multi-body hive this is not possible because bees can not lift/move the hive bodies all by themselves; 
you must be there and you must move the bee furniture for them (bees kinda need your help to move the furniture);
not to mention the propensity of tall hives to flip when no one is around


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I like the Modified Square Jumbo Dadant ("MSJD" for short) with 1.240 inch wide frames and 5.1 mm cell size. It brings the population up earlier in the year, which is very beneficial for almond pollination. If I could get them to do this on drawn combs instead of foundation, I'd likely be splitting colonies twice a year on good years.

These are big hives and very heavy, requiring a strong body, well designed hive moving equipment (I'm using a beekeeper's wheelbarrow and a long wooden truck ramp) and honey boxes and queen excluders made square. I'm going with a 2-queen system up to 4 frames, then moving them to single colony. My boxes are 12 inches deep and the frames are 11-1/4 inch deep overall.

These result in very strong colonies.


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## bkcrrtnps (Mar 30, 2018)

kilocharlie said:


> I like the Modified Square Jumbo Dadant ("MSJD" for short) with 1.240 inch wide frames and 5.1 mm cell size. It brings the population up earlier in the year, which is very beneficial for almond pollination. If I could get them to do this on drawn combs instead of foundation, I'd likely be splitting colonies twice a year on good years.
> 
> These are big hives and very heavy, requiring a strong body, well designed hive moving equipment (I'm using a beekeeper's wheelbarrow and a long wooden truck ramp) and honey boxes and queen excluders made square. I'm going with a 2-queen system up to 4 frames, then moving them to single colony. My boxes are 12 inches deep and the frames are 11-1/4 inch deep overall.
> 
> These result in very strong colonies.


What do you mean wit this? "I'm going with a 2-queen system up to 4 frames, then moving them to single colony."


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

The MSJD frame is a large square, and the deep frames (deeper than deeps) provide large brood space. What KiloCharlie is saying (as I understand it) is that he runs a divider in the square box and treats it as two colonies with a QE above to adapt to a square super. When a colony below builds population to four frames, he transfers it to a full box of its own. One might equivalently transfer the smaller colony to a different box. That's what his statement seems to mean to me. I'm thinking to make such a setup myself, so the concepts aren't foreign to me. Just not something I've yet done.

Michael


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

DerTiefster is right on the money.

Fusion-power started us onto this fantastic system. Someone on that thread posted a link to a historical reference that told of the Dadants' (Charles' and Camille Pierre's) difficulty in getting these large hives accepted. Their results should have spoken for themselves ... 50% to 100% more honey than "standard" hives. Fusion_power's use of small cell and narrow frames bring the populations up much quicker - up to 2 weeks earlier in the season.

www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?327565-Hive-designs-and-their-advantages-and-disadvantages

There was a previous discussion in which a fellow in Germany gave us his 13 years experience with the big hives. I'll try to find it and post a link.


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

I suspect the "fellow in Germany" was Bernhard Heuvel. Here is one thread with lots of his input on the deep square box management. Thread number at this writing is 306234:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?306234-Running-two-queen-colonies

This is nonstandard. To some this means "Here Be Dragons." In my experience, it can mean, "Oh, gosh, the bees survive here, too. Who knew?" Looks like fun to me, and if you pay attention to the recommendations on management, it can be pretty simple management compared to three mediums and "who knows where the queen is?" But this only peripherally addresses what style of horizontal hive to consider. Maybe not even peripherally.

And odfrank has been using such colonies in California since the '70s. Look up his input for more interesting information and opinions. We all have opinions, even those of us who don't deserve them.

Michael


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Michael - Thank you! I do not recall having read that thread. There is another involving FP and BernardHuevel. BH mentiions he has used Brother Adam hives (some slight modifications to the original Dadant Jumbo hive) for 13 years and he gives us his annual routine in it. I'll try to find it. But again Thank you, this one you just gave the link to is great.


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

Still trying to be of use to our O.P. on horizontal hives, but also to KiloCharlie, thread 336718 from dtrooster: 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?336718-Project-X-another-square-deep-thread

Bernhard's input is mentioned by skyscraper in thread 330701:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?330701-Compact-Brood-Nest

But it may be that the thread KC searches for is his aforementioned "advantages and disadvantages" thread, somewhere around page 9. I'd forgotten where to find the material KC describes, and spent the past hour searching for it. I believed it was in some other thread than this one, but may have been wrong. The timing is correct for skyscraper's 9/2016 mention of Bernhard's descriptions still to have been read from the adv&disadv thread.

Hope this is useful to someone. I think it's all fascinating.

Michael


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

For our new beekeepers out there, just want to put out there that beekeepers who know how to read the hive can visit minimally, and know what the hive is telling them. By "minimally", that can mean (for a package, for an experienced beekeeper) hiving the bees, checking the queen is out, checking to see if it's time to add second story, checking for adding supers, checking to see if you need to harvest or have to wait or have to add a super... wait, that's actually a lot of visits. 

Doolittle wrote a book about managing an out-apiary. He describes about a visit each month. He really knew what he was doing. I need to go in more often than that!!! The book is online free - http://www.honeybee.bz/Doolittle.pdf and is a good read.

He was writing pre-Varroa. Unfortunately, in his time the main risks of death for a hive was starvation, failure to re-queen successfully after a swarm or split or supercedure (sometimes the virgin doesn't make it back), and the occasional brood or wasting disease. And mismanagement - Langstroth's and C.C. Miller's early years feature serious losses due to overwintering in cellars and not getting the bees out in time. Anyways, a typical beekeeper would lose 10% of hives. 

In our time, Varroa mites take down hives with little or no warning - to people who are going in just to check for stores or for a laying queen. And there's no warning for people checking for mites and treating, to be fair. The hive looks great in September, and is dead by November. If the beek does an autopsy and checks for dead mites on the dead bees...they will find a lot of dead mites. If they don't check... they'll wonder if it was moisture, or CCD. Unfortunately, the only accurate way to detect an infestation of varroa is to do an alcohol wash or a sugar shake (be sure it is at least 1/2 cup bees)....but it has to be at the right time. The mites hide in the brood and just are pretty invisible - this is why the official advice is to treat when you see only a 1% infestation (so 3 mites in a mite check with pwd sugar or alcohol). That's because you really have a much higher infestation - in the brood - and can't see it. Until September, when brood rearing slows down... and it can be too late to treat effectively. 

I'm checking for mites in early July, mid July, early Aug, mid Aug - these are the key times to be able to detect high mites in a hive that had deceptively low counts earlier in the summer. I want to breed from queens that manage mites well, and I want to be able to detect that, and I DON't want to be swamped by mites if the hive isn't keeping counts down. 

And to make things more challenging, Varroa mites can suck the winter bees' vitality in about 2 months, even in a hive that previously had a low mite count. I saw it first-hand - a hive of mine went a-robbing on Nov 1, and was dead by mid Jan. There was a mite on the queen (both dead). There was little or no mite frass in the combs, showing that the mites weren't home-grown.


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## RoyalJello (Jul 7, 2017)

enjambres said:


> Hi Alanna,
> 
> Welcome to BeeSource! I, too, am in upstate NY, north of Albany.
> 
> ...


No advantage to be gained from them? Are you serious?


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

A HUGE advantage to horizontal hives is NO lifting heavy boxes. As you get older this gets more and more important. I've been a lang deep user for years. Tell you what, I keep 5 TBH's for fun. After I talk with Sam Comfort I start thinking. I can keep 3 TBH's for the price of one Lang hive with purchased lumber. 5-6 TBH's with scrap lumber. I can see putting some profit back in bees with TBH's. One down side to horizontal hives is there non standard. I have some ideas on TBH nucs that will fit most TBH's or can be mounted in most horizontal hives. But I do enjoy Lang hives too. So....


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Clayton Huestis said:


> ..... But I do enjoy Lang hives too. So....


OK, I will go off topic just a little bit.

To address the love to the Lang hives while staying ergonomic and light - look at vertical hives of compact formats. 
Again, very well known designs in Europe (Russia, Ukraine, France, etc). 
Older vertical beeks LOVE these. 
Commercials like them too, actually, once they get the idea built into their commercial models.
The TRUE box-based beekeeping.

Here, some pics for you to get the idea:
https://www.google.com/search?q=уле...xsbaAhVj4IMKHXrCDVgQ_AUICygC&biw=1920&bih=938

So - one needs not blindly jump into horizontal hives AS IF no ergonomic vertical hive models exist.
They do exist and are very common at that. 
If you insist vertical, then go ergonomic vertical - all it is to it.
Not talking of Warre hive at all (those just not practical - again, heavy lifting is a must with classic Warre system).

Common Lang hives are really neither here nor there - commercial pallet hives designed around forklift, for what they really are.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

There is one *potential* disadvantage to 'long' Long Hives, and that's the issue of moving them. I run several Long Hives, all of which remain static - but from time to time even those need to come in for maintenance: usually small repairs and a lick of paint. Because of this I now like to limit Long Hive length to around 30-32 inches (which I can get my arms around and lift on my own - but only when empty !), and whenever I need a larger volume, then deeper frames are the answer. Of course if you have an assistant, then moving 'long' Long Hives doesn't present any problems ... but I work single-handed.

This is what I was up to earlier today - moving a 4ft (Dual) Deep Long Hive which was emptied yesterday - using a sack truck:









The hive body itself is ok, although the roof badly needs a lick of paint, and the legs need replacing - for although I used some scrap wood pads as 'load spreaders' beneath the legs, they weren't large enough for the substantial hive weight and sank into the soft wet earth and have started to rot. Will be located on concrete in future.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

My biggest 20-framer is about 3ft long - not moving that one alone. 
Well, maybe only a short distance around the property.
Well, it is now firmly parked in the backyard and I have no more plans to drive with it around.








However, 16-framers are just over 2ft long and I am usually moving those alone (when empty). 
Just drove a spare vacated by dead out last week and re-hived bees in a remote out yard (all alone).
12/14-framers are fine to move alone.
Deep design makes the hive bodies more like cuboid and more compact and easier to handle.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I'm indebted to Greg for posting that ...

I've been whingeing about that 4ft Deep Long Hive for ages - and yet it never occurred to me to cut the bl##dy thing down to a more manageable size.

So - as it was coming in for two new legs anyway, I decided fitting two new end-plates would be a much better idea. Here's a 'before and after' from this morning's pottering about in the greenhouse:















Problem solved. Thanks, Greg.
LJ


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

> I've been whingeing about that 4ft Deep Long Hive for ages - and yet it never occurred to me to cut the bl##dy thing down to a more manageable size.


Can't you use a follower board and move it as the hive expands. Could even make the back side a nuc. Just a thought.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Clayton Huestis said:


> Can't you use a follower board and move it as the hive expands. Could even make the back side a nuc. Just a thought.


I wasn't very clear in that post - apologies - what I should have said was "I've been whingeing for ages about the problem of *moving* such a long Long Hive ...". 

I can move every other hive in the Apiary on my own (Long Hives when empty) with ease - except that one. But now I can. Or rather I will be able to do so, in a day or two. 

I've just never thought of chopping it in two before ... been suffering from 'tunnel vision'.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Any time LJ! 

Say, I have horizontal hives that only take 6-7 frames.
Built all around the same single frame size.
These are my multi-use boxes all in one - nucs/traps/storage/work-tables/etc.
I sit on them and eat lunches on them - anything goes.
I can move a large hive in them if really have to (in pieces - naturally).


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## wasabi (Jun 14, 2016)

Hey all,

I think this is the link some were looking for....wherein Bernard expounds exponentially about his deep hive methods:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...esigns-and-their-advantages-and-disadvantages

Tis a GREAT read.....my personal all time pithy favorite


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Alanna - this thread illustrates enjambres’ point quite well: You will have more success in the beginning if you start with standard equipment.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

shinbone said:


> Alanna - this thread illustrates enjambres’ point quite well: You will have more success in the beginning if you start with standard equipment.


On the opposite opinion let me state this - a new beekeeper can start with ANY mindset as it is NO need to break out of any existing molds.

Being compatible to the so-called standard Lang frames - helps (and I would advise doing so).
If there is anything "standard" here - that's only frame sizing.
The way you are going to arrange those Lang-compatible frames - subject for a review (based on your own special case and opinions).


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