# Which stacked dado for cutting box joints in cedar?



## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

mike17l said:


> I have the avanti set from HD, obviously it is not the best. I have been looking on Amazon and do not know which to buy. I want to spend the least possible, while still getting a quality set that will not require a sacrificial board to prevent rip out. I am planning on building boxes with western red cedar if that helps.


This is the one I picked up and am absolutely loving it. No blow outs/splits. Clean cuts and should last longer than me.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000223O9?keywords=dado&qid=1449808600&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Mike171... About a year ago I did an analysis of my use with 2 different dado sets. Several beesource members gave their observations. A good discussion. This thread may help you.

Use the search engine above and search, "Dado sets: Comparison Freud SD208 and Oshlund SDS 0842."

The Freud is still on my primary box joint saw, but, my current observations are about the same as expressed in that thread.

Hope this will help you.

cchoganjr


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is an active link to the thread Cleo referred to:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ts-Comparison-Freud-SD208-and-Oshlun-SDS-0842


Also, some other _dado blade_ threads:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?292910-Dado-Blades
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291685-Does-anyone-use-this-Irwin-dado-set
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?224973-Cheap-vs-quot-value-quot-Dado-set


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

What type of sled or jig do you plan on using to cut the box joints? Most jigs have sacrificial backer boards that provide a zero clearance and reduce blowout/chipping, even then you need to watch the speed at which you feed the wood. 
Even the best dado blades will chip if fed too fast or the wood isn't supported. If you're planning on cutting box joints freehand you may find trying to maintain accuracy an exercise in frustration.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Eikel said:


> Most jigs have sacrificial backer boards that provide a zero clearance and reduce blowout/chipping If you're planning on cutting box joints freehand you may find trying to maintain accuracy an exercise in frustration.


Eikkel... You are absolutely correct. a backer board on a sled will help to eliminate blowout, ... but... the first time box joint cutter needs a little additional information... Note i said first time box joint cutter

First, for best results let your sled slide in the two miter grooves of your table saw. More precise than just in one. Far more precise than freehand.

Your backer board will provide zero clearance and blowout assistance unless, you, at some time or another, raise the height of the dado blade higher than the depth of the cut that you want as a finish cut. I hope I am making sense. Put it this way, if your have your dado blade higher than 3/4 (for whatever reason), and you want your final product 3/4, then if you run the dado through your sled backer board, then you will have introduced space for blowout to occur. It is no longer zero clearance for 3/4. I say this because, I often run my fingers and valleys on the side board of a bee top, at 1 inch, not 3/4. (All my bee box joints are 3/4.) After running the 1 inch fingers and valleys, my backer board is no longer zero clearance for 3/4. That is why I use Luan as a backer.

To insure that I have my box joints exactly 3/4 X 3/4 (fingers and valleys), I have a piece of wood that is 3/4 X 3/4 X 6 inches long. To set up the dado cut, and insure that it is exactly 3/4 X 3/4, I raise the dado blade to approximate height, cut a valley in a piece of scrap wood, then lay the 3/4 X 3/4 in the valley. I then adjust the height of the dado blade and make scrap cuts until the guide will be flush with the ends of the fingers. Since my backer board has been previously used for 1 inch, I need to use Luan to prevent blowout when I cut 3/4.

Reference my remarks in the old post. I still believe the Oshlund is marginally better than the Freud, BUT... I believe you will be happy with either set. I believe the 42 teeth versus 12 teeth may be the difference. But, to get a Freud with a 42 teeth is likely going to be more expensive. In comparing Oshlund and Freud at about $90.00 each, I would pick the Oshlund.

I still have the Freud on the primary box joint saw, and after a year, it is doing great. I believe you will be happy with either set.

Hope this helps

cchoganjr
.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Eikel said:


> What type of sled or jig do you plan on using to cut the box joints? Most jigs have sacrificial backer boards that provide a zero clearance and reduce blowout/chipping, even then you need to watch the speed at which you feed the wood.
> Even the best dado blades will chip if fed too fast or the wood isn't supported. If you're planning on cutting box joints freehand you may find trying to maintain accuracy an exercise in frustration.


Also if you stack the wood (do two or 4 sides clamped together at a time) the only time the board would not be supported is the last board. I use quick grip clamps for the stack fully stable and give me a handle.
Look in the build it yourself section for a quick jig rather than buying one.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Good advice Minz....

I normally do two at a time. Since front and rear are the same I clamp them together and make the box joints. The sides are the same so I clamp them together and cut them.

My saw is not a really heavy duty one and two boards is about all it needs.

cchoganjr


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## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

OK, thanks for some great info. 

Radar, I have read some of those links, but haven's seen all of them. Thanks!

Cleo, you have enlightened me to my problem. I built a jig/sled with a backer board, but ended up cutting too high (1") through it, so there isn't zero clearance for 3/4". When reading about a sacrificial backer board, I missed the concept, I was envisioning a board that is moved for every new cut I make. I will definitely look at the Oshlund.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

mike171...Just add a board in front of your current backer board and screw it to your current backer board. Then just be careful to never raise the blade more than 3/4 and the zero clearance will last for a long time.

cchoganjr


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

Extremely timely thread for me. I just made my first box joint sled and I am in fact getting some blowout. I have a different question, though. How wide do you make the fingers and valleys? In the Langstroth Hive Plan it shows them as 5/8". The accompanying illustration showed each resulting peak and valley as being the same size. Like a knucklehead I didn't check their math. When I tried, the last peak is perhaps a 1/4". To me, this is too little material to have on the edge. It seems like it could snap off, particularly if you are trying to separate the hive body by prying it up in that location.

According to my math, 3/4" is probably a better width. It will still leave a slightly short peak on the end - but enough. Is that 5/8" dimension I see an error? Is that actually the frame rest? Thanks!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

You might find this _Box Joint_ PDF useful ....
http://www.beesource.com/files/boxjoint.pdf

The 5/8" dimension shown on the _Build-It-Yourself_ plans is for the frame rest.


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> You might find this _Box Joint_ PDF useful ....
> http://www.beesource.com/files/boxjoint.pdf
> 
> Thanks Rader. That confirms it. I've built half the furniture in my house and use dovetails all the time. I don't know why I am struggling with a box joint and the whole process of building a hive, but I am. Next up is a hand-hold jig for the circular saw.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Beerz.... I make mine 3/4 and that leaves the last finger/valley approx 1/2. (I have never measured to be sure)

Then when you use the same dado to make the shallow super your last finger/valley will be approx 3/4.(I have never measured to be sure)

I would either use 3/4 or 7/8.

cchoganjr


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

Thank you Cleo. Are you of the "hand-hold" fame? I will let you know how THAT turns out tomorrow!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If you make the fingers 1" they come out full finger at the bottom and 5/8" at the top which is just right for the frame rest. Works for deeps and mediums anyway. Those are not delicate fingers!


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Beerz, don’t feel bad I have more board foot of wood into pieces of furniture than hives and I still get into trouble. In my case it is because I go from expensive hard wood to air dried hemlock and no longer fret over the cuts. I hate plaining the wood so my boxes vary by thickness and depth of cut. Looks like Crafter skips that step and goes with Rough cut 4/4. 
Frank, do you run into trouble joining the rough cut? Other than taking more paint and being slightly heavier any downside?
And I use the Hogan hand hold jig as well.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

You do have to keep in mind which is inside and always reference from that. Variation then is only on the outside of the box. The extra weight on nucs is not a problem but it does add up on deeps.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

You can make your "fingers" 1/8" to ??? 3" fingers if you want. If I made them I would probably use 1 1/2" fingers but 3/4" is what I would use if I were going the dado route. All my boxes are assembled using rabbets and I cut them with a 40 toothed blade. To each their own.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Beerz said:


> Are you of the "hand-hold" fame? !


Never looked at it as fame, but, that is me.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

rwurster said:


> To each their own.


My thought exactly.

Do whatever works for you, don't worry about what others use.

cchoganjr


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

He's also known for his trap out method, an excellent read. I thank you again for sharing it Cleo.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

I'll add my vote for whatever size works for you. My dado stack has a number of thin shims that are a real pain to install and remove so I don't use them for bee boxes and not suffered any ill effects.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

rwurster said:


> You can make your "fingers" 1/8" to ??? 3" fingers if you want. If I made them I would probably use 1 1/2" fingers but 3/4" is what I would use if I were going the dado route. All my boxes are assembled using rabbets and I cut them with a 40 toothed blade. To each their own.


What a great post. I've done all of this and am thankful for the experiences. My "preferred" way and someone else's "preferred" way don't make much matter to the bees. As beekeeper, we're all brethren.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

You can notice in my stack of nucs that the top two are finger jointed and the rest are rabbeted! I made an executive decision _ _ _ _ _ rabbeted is less fussing around for me. The heck with aesthetics!


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

Glad to hear Im not the only one thinking about rabbetts. Even with a dado it just seems to be a more than adequate joint requiring a lot less time and I'd even argue safer (less time with fingers near a blade and less passes of the blade. I respect the power saw.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If you make one cut into end grain and the second (single blade) cut in side grain to intersect the first cut you avoid having to chip to sawdust the whole volume of the rabbet. It sure takes a lot less horsepower than a dado blade to get the same size rabbet.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

DirtyLittleSecret said:


> I'd even argue safer (less time with fingers near a blade


You can make your box joint sled so that you cannot get your fingers in the saw blade. Even if you fall asleep, and fall on the sled, or the saw table, you still can't get your fingers (or anything else) in the blade. 

I strongly recommend making your sled this way. I am a safety freak.

cchoganjr


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

crofter said:


> If you make one cut into end grain and the second (single blade) cut in side grain to intersect the first cut you avoid having to chip to sawdust the whole volume of the rabbet. It sure takes a lot less horsepower than a dado blade to get the same size rabbet.


 And that's why I've never even mounted my dado set . I cut the frame rest and rabbet the same 3/8 deep so the only adjustment is the width .


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## Knisely (Oct 26, 2013)

crofter said:


> If you make the fingers 1" they come out full finger at the bottom and 5/8" at the top which is just right for the frame rest. Works for deeps and mediums anyway. Those are not delicate fingers!


That math works out for deep and medium supers if you use 3/4" fingers, too, in case anyone hadn't taken the time to check...9 and 5/8" for the deep super gives twelve 3/4" fingers, and for the medium super depth of 6 and 5/8", a 3/4" finger depth will give you 8 fingers. 

Being careful with your table saw will also leave you with 8 fingers. 

And 2 thumbs.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Knisely said:


> That math works out for deep and medium supers if you use 3/4" fingers, too, in case anyone hadn't taken the time to check...9 and 5/8" for the deep super gives twelve 3/4" fingers, and for the medium super depth of 6 and 5/8", a 3/4" finger depth will give you 8 fingers.
> 
> Being careful with your table saw will also leave you with 8 fingers.
> 
> And 2 thumbs.


It took me over 50 years of using a table saw before it finally got the chance to taste one of my fingers! Just when I was beginning to think that old table saw and I were friends for life! I got lucky and only a scar for a souvenir.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Terry C said:


> And that's why I've never even mounted my dado set . I cut the frame rest and rabbet the same 3/8 deep so the only adjustment is the width .



Terry..... If you have your dado mounted, you can make you a pattern, like this one, that anchors in the miter groove of the saw table, and the width for all your frame rests will be the same. No adjustment will be require. 

Also note the board over the dado blades. It is there in case you fall asleep, and fall on the table, you still can not get your fingers in the blade. 












The 2d thumbnail just shows what the guide that goes into the miter groove of a pattern looks like.


cchoganjr


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

Crofter, there is something special about a hive made from rough cut lumber - those look great! I am blessed to work in a factory where we receive tubing in 12' x 1' x 1' wooden crates. There isn't a shed, camp, or fishing shanty within 30 miles of our plant that isn't made from these crates. I believe mine will be the first beehives made from them.


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