# Foundation - what kind do you use



## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Pierco plastic, white and black (although only about 10% is black) in wood frames. Because plastic is fast (no wiring), but I still like building wood frames so I take my time where I want it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I use a mixture of these:
Mann Lake PF120s (plastic 4.96mm cell size one piece frame and foundation)
Foundationless (frame with wood comb guide of some kind or another. Most are beveled top bars)
PermaComb (fully drawn plastic 5.0mm cell size, heated and wax dipped and shaken off)
Honey Super Cell (fully drawn plastic 4.9mm cell size, cut down to mediums)
Small Cell (4.9mm) wax from various suppliers (Brushy Mt, Dadant etc.)

Cell size is important to me.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

I have a mixture of these:

Black RiteCell
White or yellow Plasticell
Foundationless
Duragilt

I prefer foundationless, but next choice is RiteCell.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Apart from Supercell which I use to regress with.....I don't like plastic in my hives so I use wooden frames with either crimped wire SC wax or foundationless. This year there is one exception to that, I am testing some plastic cross frame supports to see how they work with foundationless. 

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Colored-Plastic-Support-Rods/productinfo/556SR/


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Hundreds of sheets of wax large cell from the early 50's that was given to me by another beekeeper. I'm going to do a test in a few hives with some un-embossed foundation I make from my own wax this spring. Saw a thread on here or somewhere else how to do it and I just have to give it a try.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

NasalSponge said:


> Apart from Supercell which I use to regress with.....I don't like plastic in my hives so I use wooden frames with either crimped wire SC wax or foundationless. This year there is one exception to that, I am testing some plastic cross frame supports to see how they work with foundationless.
> 
> http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Colored-Plastic-Support-Rods/productinfo/556SR/


I did that on 5 frames of foundationless and they work beautifully for me.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

rwurster said:


> Saw a thread on here or somewhere else how to do it and I just have to give it a try.


Can you post a link when you find it? Thx.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Cool, I wasn't sure how they would respond to them.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Wired deep wax foundation, cross wired in wood frames. Wax foundation for cut comb.

For those using plastic frames, don't the plastic frames hurt your hands? They do mine.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I was totally natural comb, but now I am going to 5.1 wired foundation for the brood boxes, Rite Cell for the honey supers. I have some plastic pf*** frames in brood boxes that I got with some purchased nucs this last year, and I can't stand them and will rotate them out asap, the bees build WAY too much burr comb between the frames and on top of them, makes it a royal pain in the butt to work the hive with them in there IMO. Like MP says, they hurt my hands too especially if they have alot of honey in them. John


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lU3C4f2Xfc

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?277128-Homemade-foundation&highlight=embossed

The video is what I watched from a link in the above thread. Good stuff.


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## beeman2009 (Aug 23, 2012)

Would anyone in their collection of bee goodies have any small cell, 4.9 mm, plastic foundation? Would like to get several sheets both medium & deep.
I now use all mediums, wooden frame, small cell wax/wired foundation. I want to make my own on a small scale until a mill can be in my future.

Thanks


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm using wired foundation and cross wires. Wedge top bars since we have had problems with sagging foundation in slotted top bars, and all the people I know who have tried plastic foundation don't like it (not that many, but it warped badly on them).

Peter


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

psfred said:


> I'm using wired foundation and cross wires. Wedge top bars since we have had problems with sagging foundation in slotted top bars


I use all grooved top bar frames and hot wax for installing foundation. Wedges require nails. 5 nails to hold wedge is a waste of time and money. The wax is free. Grooved/wax makes it easier to replace rotate out old comb...no wedges to break when nails are pulled.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> I use all grooved top bar frames and hot wax


I assumed all you "big guys" used plastic frames since it would seem an overwhelming job to assemble and insert wax in large quantities.
Since you apparently don't use frames like pierco's, can I ask why? 
A note here, Pierco tells me they now offer double waxed frames.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Mann lake's plastic Rite Cell waxed coated.


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

I have a bunch of the wood frame plasticell (deeps & med.), but am transitioning to the Walter Kelley foundationless (type F) that the girls have been taking to quite well. I am going to order 250 more of the med. soon as I am going to start 2 med. super only hives in April and am trying to avoid buying an extractor for now. I am probably going to stay under 10 hives at my residence for now.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I use rite cell and foundationless. Gonna run all foundationless in the brood chambers and plastic in the honey supers. I also have quite a bit of undrawn rite cell that I am going to cut into starter strips for the foundationless frames, no more paint sticks although they worked great!


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

I use mostly foundationless because it's cheaper, and I do a good deal of cut comb anyway. I have a pile of plastic frames that were left at my place that I wax and use as spacers to get them to draw straight foundationless. I use whatever cell size is convenient or the bees make for themselves.


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## sonnypemberton (Sep 10, 2012)

was going to try rite-cell for the first time - the website lists with insert and without, Does anyone know the difference?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

DonShackelford said:


> I assumed all you "big guys" used plastic frames since it would seem an overwhelming job to assemble and insert wax in large quantities.
> Since you apparently don't use frames like pierco's, can I ask why?
> A note here, Pierco tells me they now offer double waxed frames.


I don't like plastic frames for a few reasons. 

They're plastic. Wood is good...and a renewable resource. 
Plastic frames deflect sideways when I try to pull them from the box...wood pops up as it should. Wood is good.
The bees like wax foundation better than plastic and draw it better and with a smaller flow than plastic.
Plastic frames get burr-combed into place making colony examination more difficult and pissing off the bees when you attempt to separate boxes.
Plastic frames twist and warp when I handle them.

Heavy plastic frames hurt my hands when I handle them. Wood is soft. Wood is good.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I use Mann Lake plastic inserts. heavy plastic and deep cells
I quit using permadent because of its flimsiness
I use inserts because I like the wooden frame over the all plastic


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## HoneyBeeWare (Dec 16, 2010)

I use wood frames with grooved top and grooved bottom bar. In the frames I use PermaDent foundation. It is a plastic foundation with a good wax coating. It even smells like bees wax. http://shop.honeybeeware.com/Deep-Foundation-Perma-Dent-Wax-Coated-120PD.htm The foundation is less expensive than wax and other foundation. The frames do not need wiring. Very fast and efficient product to use. I find the bees accept it and draw it out just as if it were all wax. I use it in my hive bodies as well as my honey supers.


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## HoneyBeeWare (Dec 16, 2010)

You mention you quit using permadent foundation because of it being flimsy. Are you sure you were using the brand PermaDent or are you just using permadent as a generic term for plastic foundation? The real PermaDent foundation is not flimsy in any way and is a very good product.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

nope, I meant PermaDent foundation, it has about half the plastic per sheet, hence the reason why its cheaper.

Those sheets will bend and push out far easier than the thicker plastic foundations, I pay the extra few cents on Mann Lake foundation. 

You will see a big difference between the foundations when pallets accidentally get knocked over. PermaDent foundations push out of the frames, where as I have yet to have a Mann Lake do the same


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

i have a lot of the Mann Lake Plastic frame because they are stone cheap when you buy them unwaxed and do it yourself. I shave them to 1 1/4 so 11 fit in a box and find they get drawn very nicely and after they are drawn they are not nearly so flimsy feeling. I have an embarrassing amount of duragilt I have been storing for 28 years and have no exceptional problem with that much maligned product either. It all works if managed properly.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

My first frames, the first year, were top bars (top bar hives). After that I went with Mann Lake PF's. Deep for brood, and medium for supers. Then I bought some medium Mann Lake wooden frames that were on sale for more supers. If I were starting over I would do the Deep Mann Lake Pf's for brood and the wooden Mann Lake frames for supers.
I got used to manipulating TBH comb the first year, and so while others complain that the ML Deep Plastics are flimsy they are a lot stiffer than unframed comb and easy enough for me to get used to.
Now as for honey supers the plastic frames are not as easy to use as the wooden ones. They slide more in the extractor, and I worry that if I ever mechanize the uncapping - say a Kelley jiggle knife - the plastic frames will get more easily damaged.
Interestingly, to me at least, even though the plastic frames do get more burr comb they get less stuck together with propolis than the wooden ones. There is something about propolis that binds frame wood to frame wood and box. The plastic frames always separate from each other more easily. I am using ten frames to a box.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Like Mr. Palmer said:

Wired deep wax foundation, cross wired in wood frames.

Kelly Foundation, if readily available.

We do use wedge top bars, and a BeA staple gun, (is it faster than waxing?)

Plans are to recreate my G. Grandfather's foundation mill in the not too distant future.

How do you recycle the old plastic frames/foundation????And does it degrade/decompose into the honey?


Crazy Roland


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## monrovi (Jan 22, 2012)

I have mannlake pf 100 plastic frame with sc foundation. I recently have been cutting the foundation out of the plastic frames and inserting them into a wood frame. I like the feel of a wood frame far better than the flimsy plastic. I wish Mann lake would sell sheets of sc plastic foundation. I also have some foundationless. All frames have been narrowed to a 1 1/4".


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Roland said:


> How do you recycle the old plastic frames/foundation????


I gather them up with old batteries and mercury light bulbs and put them in the trash 

I was hoping to hear better reports from the big guys on plastic. I've been making all my own re-enforced foundationless frames so far, but can't keep up and was looking for a quick way to backfill the shortage.

Back to the drawing board.


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

When I first started I used wired wax foundation in wired wood frames. The bees do seem to like this the best. However, it's very time consuming to do, and hard on the hands. A friend of mine is a commercial bee with experience in one of the bee labs. He did some side by side comparison of foundations. This was done in multiple yards, on multiple hives. Multiple brands of foundation were put into the hives. No wax foundation was used during this comparison. In 95% of the hives, the bees drew out the Pierco foundation first. Second was the Dadant Plasticell, and third was Mann Lake Rite-Cell. It didn't seem to matter if it was a foundation inserted into a wood frame, or an all plastic frame. This commercial beek uses all wood frames with plastic foundation in his brood boxes, and all plastic frames/foundation in his honey supers. My own operation; I use wood frames and black, Pierco foundation in my brood nest, and a mixture of wood and plastic frames with black Pierco foundation in my honey supers. The bees draw it out great. I do not apply a coat of sugar syrup onto the frames before installing into the hives as recommended by Pierco. It didn't seem to make a difference.

Wisnewbee

Bill


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## arcowandbeegirl (Oct 11, 2010)

So much good info, thanks everyone! I am a 3rd year beekeeper, small (6 hives). In my hives is a mixture of duragilt and regular beeswax foundation, that are wired. All on wooden frames.


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## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

This is what I use for foundation?
http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i418/DCBees/DSC01994-1.jpg
http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i418/DCBees/Picture016.jpg


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Looks good DC Bees, but I dont think that is foundation, rather naturally built comb


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## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

Ian said:


> Looks good DC Bees, but I dont think that is foundation, rather naturally built comb


Just having a little fun,is spring here yet?:waiting:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

no doubt


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