# Please Help Me Choose a Hive



## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

I am so lost. Right now, I’m debating between the Amish Made Busy Bees ‘n More 8 Frame, or the Hoover Hives 8 Frame.

Can anyone suggest something else, or vouch for one of these?

Thanks!


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

Here are links to both:









Amish-Made 8 Frame Beehive - (2)Deeps & (2)Mediums


These Amish made complete beehive kits have been meticulously designed to be a beautiful showpiece on your lawn. These Northern Style hives are perfect for beekeepers that live in long winter climates. An 8 Frame hive weighs 20% less and honey transportation easier.




galenafarms.com













Wax-Coated 8 Frame Beehive - (2)Deeps & (2)Mediums


Hoover Hives 8 Frame Hives are dipped in 100% natural beeswax and are cut with dovetail joints. This "Northern Style" hive comes with 2 Deep Brood Boxes and is great for long winters. With 2 Medium Honey Supers, your bees can have one for themselves and you can start collecting honey for...




galenafarms.com


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## Johnnymms (Feb 7, 2020)

If the Hoover hive is wax dipped properly in boiling wax it is essentially weather proofed. It says "coated" though so I'm not sure if that's the same. Someone who has one may know. If it's properly dipped I would go with that one just because my least favorite thing about new hives is painting them. If you like the idea of painting your own hive and customizing the color then go with the Amish hive. Aside from that they are pretty much the same.


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## Rave1 (May 8, 2021)

I have both, The Amish wood is better. Hoover has cool wax coating that seems to hold up, but has more knots.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

Thank you, guys. After reading some reviews of Hoover, it seems like the wax coating isn’t even all that great, and came off for some people, so I’m leaning towards the Amish Made and just staining, and marine sealing it.

Which brings up the question: what type of stain would you recommend?


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

Another thing to consider are the mechanics and motion of upkeep. Having standardized equipment is important and pro's depend on it. However, if you're getting older and don't want to lift too much you may want to look at a Layens hive or something that doesn't require as much physical strength. I'm 60 but mostly fit. I may transition to a Layens over time. That requires a lot of new equipment. I also don't have long hive stands because I don't want to twist when I'm inspecting. Just wanted to put this out there. Equipment, while important is less important than having good stock, treating for mites and good nutrition. My small sustainable apiary was built on solid nuc stock from years ago. Haven't lost a hive in 4 years.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

Okay, I had a change of heart. I’m really not handy, so I don’t even trust myself to stain and seal a hive, nonetheless assemble it. As such, I think I’m going to go with this hive, and a ceracell top feeder.









8 Frame Traditional Growing Apiary Kit - Wood Frames - Painted


Check out the deal on 8 Frame Traditional Growing Apiary Kit - Wood Frames - Painted at Mann Lake Bee & Ag Supply




www.mannlakeltd.com


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## MajorJC (Apr 13, 2013)

If a ten frame hive is an option, the ten frame version of the hive you linked above is included in their Independence day sale for $309. Sale price through the 7th.









10 Frame Traditional Growing Apiary Kit - Wood Frames - Painted


Check out the deal on 10 Frame Traditional Growing Apiary Kit - Wood Frames - Painted at Mann Lake Bee & Ag Supply




www.mannlakeltd.com


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

A beginner who still does not know if they can tolerate the bees or the stings would be well served with a plain jane Langstroth hive! A lot less initial expenditure and if you are one of the eighty percent who find they are not fated to be beekeepers, you will find a ready market for your almost unused equipment. If you are the head of the class and quickly master beekeeping it may then become obvious to you that the new Wanker 8000 hive with the Binford 24 amp ventilation fan bottom board will be the secret to your happiness.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Adamantium said:


> Okay, I had a change of heart. I’m really not handy, so I don’t even trust myself to stain and seal a hive, nonetheless assemble it. As such, I think I’m going to go with this hive, and a ceracell top feeder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


seriously, you do not feel comfortable painting a hive?
Keeping it alive is way more complicated.

I would advise to get the cheaper one, then, you will be out less money when you decide to give it away.

GG


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Make a horned hive version of a Palmer double nuc (all nuc deeps). The hardest part is figuring out entrance sizes and choosing a cover.

no heavy boxes
easy to make
works with most 10 fr. equipment


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Adamantium said:


> Okay, I had a change of heart. I’m really not handy, so I don’t even trust myself to stain and seal a hive, nonetheless assemble it. As such, I think I’m going to go with this hive, and a ceracell top feeder.


I am with Grey Goose, a substantial amount of beginner beekeepers find that it is not for them. I am thinking you will quickly fall into that category.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Buy something that everyone else would like to buy from you if you decide beekeeping is not for you.

Check the country of Origin on the Hoover woodenware

Crazy Roland


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Based on what you've written about not feeling competent enough to even paint a beehive, I'd strongly suggest that you do *NOT* purchase a Nuc *OR* a beehive at this stage.
I'd suggest that you make contact with a Beekeeping Club or Association in your area, and ask to shadow a beekeeper (or two) during their inspections, in order that you get some feel for the reality of what's actually involved in day-to-day beekeeping. 

Beekeeping is very much a practical hands-on activity, and as GG has already intimated - many routine tasks are WAY more demanding than simply painting a few boxes.
Once you've acquired some kind of feel for what's involved - you'll then be in a much better position to make a balanced judgement of whether beekeeping might be right for you, or not. And by then, you'll also have made a few valuable contacts.

Better to undergo this kind of delay I'd have thought, than shell out money on an impulse buying something that you'll only have to sell at a loss a short time later.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Indeed, I enjoy the entire beekeeping hobby (from A to Z of it) for exactly that - the continuous and non-repeatable series of challenges thrown at you.
This is akin to being a front-line commander maneuvering the troops.
You have to do everything - be a battalion leader, a sapper, an engineer, a chemical war-fair specialist, an infantry person taking on enemy fire, a reconnaissance expert, a logistics person. 
There is lots of sweat and there is some pain.
If anything, painting a box is one of the most simple and boring tasks to be done that I don't really even enjoy that much (still have to do some of that).

Anyway, just a lyrical extension to the above.

Being a bottom feeder - I don't mind at all when I get to snatch on the cheap some equipment from yet another short-lived beekeeping attempt.
Want to feed the bottom feeders like myself?
Sure, go for it.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

I must say, it’s quite disheartening to have three or four people stating that I’m probably not fit for this because I don’t know how to paint and seal wood. That I’ll probably flounder given all the hard work and end up selling all my recently purchased equipment.

I’ve shadowed a local beekeeper, and am joining his school in spring. I know how much I don’t know. I’m just inquiring about the basics.

My other two hobbies are reefkeeping and bonsai. They both require a lot of chemical, biological, and husbandry knowledge. This seems like a natural fit. Just because I’m not handy with a paintbrush doesn’t mean I’m not up to the challenges of maintaining a healthy hive. I just want it to look nice.

Hope everyone had a happy fourth.


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## Rave1 (May 8, 2021)

This my first year, not taking honey[weird weather]. Just building up brood and having a great time. I bought a couple of cheap hives for the reasons above. You might check Bee Castle[waxed], bought a couple of med. supers from them and thought they were the SH##. I over feed sugar water through the flow, but we had a week of rain followed by 2 days of sun than repeat. Decisions Decisions and I`m not very good at it. I painted my Amish hive white and went to the Ooop rake at HD for some wild colors. My wife had a stencil kit that added some pizazz to the hive[peace signs etc]. Point is have a Great Time I`m here to stay


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Adamantium said:


> My other two hobbies are reefkeeping and bonsai. They both require a lot of chemical, biological, and husbandry knowledge. This seems like a natural fit. Just because I’m not handy with a paintbrush doesn’t mean I’m not up to the challenges of maintaining a healthy hive. I just want it to look nice.


Also hate to paint! Since I also like the look of natural wood went with linseed oil instead. Yes, you have to put it on with a paint brush. Nothing like painting! Thin it about 50% with odorless mineral spirits and slop it on. No worries about primer, how many coats, (at least two) time between coats (one hour or ten days makes no difference) just slop it on and let it dry.

Lasts well and can be re-applied if / when needed. Only thing I dislike about it is how fast the wood darkens. So I'm working on a hot wax dipping tank... Got most of the *expensive *stuff purchased (thanks stimulus checks!) now just need to get it all put together...

But yes, if you are into those hobbies you got what it takes to be a beek. Only question is do you still have the time to spare? Beekeeping is addictive and if you expand too fast it will eat up all of your spare time.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

William Bagwell said:


> But yes, if you are into those hobbies you got what it takes to be a beek. Only question is do you still have the time to spare? Beekeeping is addictive and if you expand too fast it will eat up all of your spare time.


I’d say so. I’ve gotten so efficient at the other two that they don’t require nearly as much weekly maintenance as they used to.

I can definitely paint, I’m not too worried about that, I just wouldn’t have known to cut the linseed oil with mineral oil, for instance. Linseed oil sounds like a good way to go. I like the dark wood look.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

Actually, maybe I’ll go with a stain and fiberglass resin, or polyurethane.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Adamantium said:


> I must say, it’s quite disheartening to have three or four people stating that I’m probably not fit for this because I don’t know how to paint and seal wood. That I’ll probably flounder given all the hard work and end up selling all my recently purchased equipment.
> 
> I’ve shadowed a local beekeeper, and am joining his school in spring. I know how much I don’t know. I’m just inquiring about the basics.
> 
> My other two hobbies are reefkeeping and bonsai. They both require a lot of chemical, biological, and husbandry knowledge. This seems like a natural fit. Just because I’m not handy with a paintbrush doesn’t mean I’m not up to the challenges of maintaining a healthy hive. I just want it to look nice.


It would be the easiest thing in the world to cheer-lead from the sidelines and encourage a person to spend their money - perhaps unwisely - on risky ventures. Personally, I find it very hard to make 'negative' suggestions, and think very hard before doing so, and try to find ways of offsetting that negativity - by suggesting possible advantages, for example.

Ultimately, all any of us ever have to work with is* what a person writes*. If you had mentioned before that you already had some 'hands-on' knowledge by shadowing a beekeeper, I wouldn't have suggested it. 

So - by now you should already have established what the inside of a beehive gets to look like after a few seasons of use, and the huge challenge of maintaining a beehive exposed to the elements 24/7/365 to 'look nice' on the outside - which is why most of us don't bother too much with a hive's external appearance - for us it's what happens *on the inside* which counts.

My own view is that beehives need to be built to the same standards as sheds, and that 'pretty' really has no place for working beehives (as opposed to garden ornaments). But - if looks are an important factor for you - so be it. 
Best of luck.
LJ


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

I can certainly appreciate utilitarianism, but I know I’m not the only one who wants an aesthetically pleasing hive. Plenty of people post pictures of their hives covered in beautiful artwork. I want something like that.

Just need to figure out what stain to use, and then I’ll probably coat it in polyurethane, or maybe fiberglass resin.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Speaking of the looks.
Here is an excellent example what becomes of the hives just after one year of outside exposure.
FYI - all these hive bodes were very well boiled (dipped into the hot liquid) in the mix of bee wax and natural oil (unsure of the exact oil type).

The wood is still fine and will be for many, many years, but the looks are not so much, just as expected.

I will go ahead and say - all the beautiful hive pictures on the internet are made right after they have been installed or just decorated. Nobody bothers coming back a year later and checking the status of them - this is because they are no longer good enough for magazine pictures. But the pretty looks is one of those common visual stories fed to people at the sales point (with a convenient omission of the maintenance over the years).

So if there any object to beatify, it should not be a bee hive just by the nature of the activity.
I guess one should do this at least once to see for themselves. 
All right.

Just pay attention to the hives (not to the video content).
Quick video:


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

That’s some nice looking comb.

I see what you mean, but obviously some people weather proof their hives better than others. Polyurethane, or fiberglass resin, seem like they would hold up to the elements a lot better than wax and some natural oil.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

It would be great, Adamantium, if someone have done exactly what you want several years ago and reported back now with the photo/video comment. One issue is - there never happens. LOL


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

GregV said:


> It would be great, Adamantium, if someone have done exactly what you want several years ago and reported back now with the photo/video comment. One issue is - there never happens. LOL


So what kind of coating is recommended just to keep the joints water tight and weatherproofed?


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

My mentor suggested marine varnish, IIRC. Can I just do a couple coats of that? Are there any specific properties/type I should be getting?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Adamantium said:


> So what kind of coating is recommended just to keep the* joints water tight and weatherproofed*?


I don't know what kind of coating - I don't concern myself with the issue of the coating types (whatever I can get for free - works).

However, I suspect your question is about the wood treatment application method (NOT the coating type).
So IMO, the best application method is - *hot dipping* (aka boiling).
This application will *saturate *the wood vs. creating some coating on the top of it - that is a major difference. For this, you should use some substance not toxic and agreeable to the bees - bees wax natural based mixes work well.
Obviously, this process requires equipment which makes no sense to have just to decorate a single hive.

Let me refer to M. Bush for this:





Wax dipping beekeeping equipment, Michael Bush


Wax dipping beekeeping equipment, Michael Bush. Pictures of me wax dipping and some details of the process.




www.bushfarms.com





OK, here is one important detail regarding the surface treatments vs. the saturation treatments - no matter how well you treat the wood from outside (be it poly or fiber or whatever), the moisture will find a way into the wood from inside and undermine the treatments from within the wood (no matter how good the treatment is).

So for the surface treatment to properly work, the wood must be absolutely treated inside and out and from every angle.. Else, it will peel off and crack soon enough (the more defects exist that allow the moisture get under the treatment, the sooner it will happen). Natural wood always has defects. Surface treatment will also have defects - always. And so you have it.

LJ has different approach however as he simply paints a hive inside and out and it works for him. I will let him comment on his approaches (ups and downs).
His approach does not work for me as I collect propolis from inside the hives and do not want any paint residue ending up in my propolis harvest.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

GregV said:


> I don't know what kind of coating - I don't concern myself with the issue of the coating types (whatever I can get for free - works).
> 
> However, I suspect your question is about the wood treatment application method (NOT the coating type).
> So IMO, the best application method is - *hot dipping* (aka boiling).
> ...


Oof, now we're back to me not feeling very handy. I don't exactly have a 10 gallon pot I can just boil a ton of wax in. How do most people do that?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Adamantium said:


> Oof, now we're back to me not feeling very handy. I don't exactly have a 10 gallon pot I can just boil a ton of wax in. *How do most people do that?*


Most people don't to that - obviously why.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

Oh…. Well then I think I’ll just go with a stain and varnish on the Amish Made hive.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Adamantium said:


> Oof, now we're back to me not feeling very handy. I don't exactly have a 10 gallon pot I can just boil a ton of wax in. How do most people do that?


OK, I remembered of an approximation to the hot dipping - not as ideal, but works OK.
You simply apply the wax/oil mix by a brush.
Then you use heat gun to sort of saturate the wood with the mix. 
It is reported to work OK on a small scale.
I have not tried it - too much work for me.
The process looks like so:


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

GregV said:


> OK, I remembered of an approximation to the hot dipping - not as ideal, but works OK.
> You simply apply the wax/oil mix by a brush.
> Then you use heat gun to sort of saturate the wood with the mix.
> It is reported to work OK on a small scale.
> ...


Thanks. That seems a bit more on the practical side.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Actually the best way to seal the joints is with propolis ( it is antibiotic too!), applied by a skilled group of hexapodas., They have millions of years experience doing so, and although they do not work for peanuts, they do seem to have a sweet tooth that you can cater to.

Crazy Roland.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Adamantium said:


> I must say, it’s quite disheartening to have three or four people stating that I’m probably not fit for this because I don’t know how to paint and seal wood. That I’ll probably flounder given all the hard work and end up selling all my recently purchased equipment.
> 
> I’ve shadowed a local beekeeper, and am joining his school in spring. I know how much I don’t know. I’m just inquiring about the basics.
> 
> ...


Do try to keep bees it is a lot of fun and such.
also the folks here are just offering the experience of seeing many struggle..
More than 50% of the folks I have mentored did not make it to year 4.

Start cost effective, if/when you are ready, you can always find things to spend $$ on.

I am talking with guy now who has 30 hives "available" got 10 packages the first year , all died, got 10 more the second all dies, Now has 10 used hives and 15 new ones, worth maybe 40 cents on the dollar. top,, 2 deeps 20 frames, bottoms, 30 feeders,, etc. for 30 hives.

IMO do 4 or so out of the gate, once you can keep them alive then decide on the next step.

Also one of the things you need to keep bees is a thick skin  and gloves.....

GG


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Be aware that, unlike reefs and bonsai. where you can control all the variables, bees are at the mercy of many external forces that you may not see, and can not control.

Crazy Roland


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

Roland said:


> Be aware that, unlike reefs and bonsai. where you can control all the variables, bees are at the mercy of many external forces that you may not see, and can not control.
> 
> Crazy Roland


That’s one of the things that excites me about it. More variables to keep track of, and to try to compensate for.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> Do try to keep bees it is a lot of fun and such.
> also the folks here are just offering the experience of seeing many struggle..
> More than 50% of the folks I have mentored did not make it to year 4.
> 
> ...


You think I should start with 4 hives?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Adamantium said:


> You think I should start with 4 hives?


3-5 is a good start.
I would do my best to stay above 3 units.

Importantly, you should not be thinking - "I got a hive".
You should think - "I have an apiary" and plan out your equipment with the apiary in mind immediately up front.

It is never about a hive; it is always about a collection of hives.
This is why people telling you about getting inexpensive collection of equipment for a small apiary, NOT a single, pretty looking and expensive hive (which is immediately insufficient for much of anything).
This is one very basic idea if you are to start playing with the bees.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

GregV said:


> 3-5 is a good start.
> I would do my best to stay above 3 units.
> 
> Importantly, you should not be thinking - "I got a hive".
> ...


Got it, thanks. I found a gentleman relatively close to me that I think I'll be getting two nucs from this week to start the hands on learning process. I would get 3+, but honestly, that's just a bit out of budget, and I can't imagine the wife would be too happy with that many hives. Two is already pushing it.

I won't go crazy getting hives that look pretty. I think I'm just going to get two painted 8 frame hives from Mann Lake to start, and all the other requisite accoutrements from Amazon and Mountain Sweet Honey.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Adamantium said:


> Two is already pushing it.


You can acquire two for now and see how you can grow from there.
Still better than one.

If money is a concern, learn the swarm chasing (but you just wanted to plunk $300+ for a pretty hive which is not even what you really needed, no??)
Have fun.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

GregV said:


> You can acquire two for now and see how you can grow from there.
> Still better than one.
> 
> If money is a concern, learn the swarm chasing (but you just wanted to plunk $300+ for a pretty hive which is not even what you really needed, no??)
> Have fun.


Well, I was hoping to only spend ~$300-500. Now it’s looking like I’ll be spending a decent bit more since I’m getting two hives. That’s, at a minimum, ~$400. Over $600 if I get both preassembled. $1000+ with two nucs. And then all the equipment, much of which has to be doubled up (feeders, stands, etc).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Well, exactly - now you understand the real #s a bit better.
Spending $300+ for an expensive single hive BEFORE you even have the bees - not exactly prudent. 
The real picture is bigger than that.

Once you understand the #s better, the idea of getting the cheap stuff AND forgetting about fancy paints should be more obvious.
UNLESS, you are indeed looking for an ornament for your yard - well, that is not about beekeeping per se but something a bit different.
An ornament does not even needs to have bees inside, think of it. 
Just hassle and may not be worth it.
Maybe this is really what you are looking for - a decoration piece?


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

GregV said:


> Well, exactly - now you understand the real #s a bit better.
> Spending $300+ for an expensive single hive BEFORE you even have the bees - not exactly prudent.
> The real picture is bigger than that.


What is a fair price for a hive in your mind? Two deeps and two medium supers.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Adamantium said:


> What is a fair price for a hive in your mind? Two deeps and two medium supers.


I don't know.
I don't buy bees.
Search Beesource - this is a common topic.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

GregV said:


> I don't know.
> I don't buy bees.
> Search Beesource - this is a common topic.


Sorry, I meant the hive body and frames. Not any bees.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Adamantium said:


> Sorry, I meant the hive body and frames. Not any bees.


I don't know either. 
I make my own hives/frames or scavenge them out for free/dirt cheap.
Again, search the BS or straight Google - a common topic


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

GregV said:


> I don't know either.
> I make my own hives/frames or scavenge them out for free/dirt cheap.
> Again, search the BS or straight Google - a common topic


Oh, right on. Good for you. I wish I had woodworking tools/skills haha


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Adamantium said:


> I wish I had woodworking tools/skills haha


Guess what, a good place for you to try this and see what you can do.
You see, the bees don't care of your skills - they will take what you give them.

I'd invest those $300 (probably less) into a table saw and go from there - a much better investment. 
This is exactly what I have done some years ago and can attest - this was a good move.
At the moment I can easily intake up to 30-40 colonies into my equipment - all at about the cost of that single hive you asked about.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

It is the variables that you can not see, and can not quantize, that will cause the most problems. Good luck, but as "Dirty Harry' says, "A man has got to know his limitations".

Crazy Roland


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## KellyW (May 16, 2020)

Adamantium, as you can see from the above replies there are as many opinions as there are beekeepers. I think most or all of them are experienced beeks with years of experience to back up their opinions. I have learned tons from their posts here on beesource.

I’m a new beek, having been doing it for about 18 months. I had some of the same questions and unknowns as you are experiencing. I started out with one colony because I didn’t truly understand the need (or potential need) for 2 or more. I got lucky and survived with my original and have now done walk-away splits so I now have 3 colonies. I can vouch for the need or purposes of having 2 or more hives starting out.

As for brands of woodenware… I think any of the mainstream USA made woodenware is good for us beginners as well as experts (including Mann Lake). You will quickly develop preferences. I have purchased assembled painted as well as unassembled unpainted. One of my purchases was for an emergency box for a swarm capture that I bought at Tractor Supply. It’s made in China, the box barely ok, the frames junky and the bottom board non-standard. Stick to USA made.

From the beginning, plan for the need to do mite control. That was my biggest issue as a beginner and I came very close to losing my original colony to mites. Types of mite treatments is another entire topic.

without extra woodenware you will also risk not being able to prevent swarming although some beeks are ok with letting swarms happen.

Good luck and enjoy the hobby.


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## kapkarl (Oct 10, 2015)

I put water-based exterior paint on mine - donated from someone who had a half-gallon left over. I think some I picked up from a recycling donation center near us, too. I even put racing stripes on one set of boxes, because I had a few colors. 

I've put boxes out that are just raw wood, as well. They won't last as long, and I'll get around to painting them one of these days. 

We started with 8-frame medium boxes for hive bodies, supers and everything. That works plenty well for us, 5 years in. If I'd started with 10-frame deeps it would probably also be working plenty well.

There is a steep learning curve, even having taken classes, having a mentor and attending local bee meetings. Starting small, I wouldn't loose too much sleep over which equipment you use. There are many fine options, and for an intelligent person going in with eyes open, I don't expect any of them to lead to disaster.

Happy Beeking!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Adamantium said:


> What is a fair price for a hive in your mind? Two deeps and two medium supers.


You may find this _For Sale_ listing useful:








8 Frame Double deep Hives with Bees Lewiston NY


I have 12 8 frame double deep colonies that I'm looking to sell. Half of the hives are new this year the others are only 1-2 year old. $250 each will sell by one, multiple or all. Located in Lewiston New York Jim @ 716-319-0105 text or call Email: [email protected]




www.beesource.com





That is within a driveable distance to you, but not next door either. Note those are 8 frame hives, but the price seems reasonable.


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## kcarroll (May 21, 2021)

I am a first year beekeeper, but I have to say I really love my Hoover Hives. I’ve purchased them from Galena Farms | Premium Wooden Beehives & Hive Parts for Beekeeping

I also purchased a top feeder that wasn’t wax coated, and I really wish it was!

-Katherine


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> You may find this _For Sale_ listing useful:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you! That’s about what I was expecting price-wise. Not quite in driving distance, but it’s still a good reference. Appreciate it.


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## amatol (Jun 1, 2017)

Adamantium said:


> I am so lost. Right now, I’m debating between the Amish Made Busy Bees ‘n More 8 Frame, or the Hoover Hives 8 Frame.
> 
> Can anyone suggest something else, or vouch for one of these?
> 
> Thanks!


I have both in my beeyard. Both are fine.


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## Organic Image (Mar 28, 2021)

Adamantium said:


> I must say, it’s quite disheartening to have three or four people stating that I’m probably not fit for this because I don’t know how to paint and seal wood. That I’ll probably flounder given all the hard work and end up selling all my recently purchased equipment.
> 
> I’ve shadowed a local beekeeper, and am joining his school in spring. I know how much I don’t know. I’m just inquiring about the basics.
> 
> ...


If you want to try the 10 frame, look at QueenRightColonies.com they are locally owned and very knowledgeable. I dont know how many countless times I have been in a predicament and they have navigated me through it successfully. I keep a 10 frame hive, but after it is drawn out, I remove 1 frame in each box to be a nine frame. This gives more honey by volume in the supers. You will need a nine frame spacer for this. There is a lot of technical knowledge to learn if you really want to "keep" bees. Most people just "have" bees. Keep that in mind after you get your hives. Good luck! Oh, and all their hives are dipped when assembled, not sure about unassembled, but you can call and ask.


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

Adamantium said:


> I am so lost. Right now, I’m debating between the Amish Made Busy Bees ‘n More 8 Frame, or the Hoover Hives 8 Frame.
> 
> Can anyone suggest something else, or vouch for one of these?
> 
> Thanks!


Before getting bees make sure you and your family members are not allergic to bee stings. Also, check with your local government laws pertaining to if you are allowed to have bees. R1 zoned homes may not be allowed, A-agriculture is typically allowed with provisions that the hives a 2 or 3 hundred feet from neighbor resident homes.

Not a good idea to purchase based on "meticulous." Standard beehives are Langstroth, 10 frame boxes. Don't stray from the norm or as you purchase other equipment you will have few choices. The norm is 2 deep 10 frame Langthroth boxes for brood and as the hive matures and they're gathering honey, medium 10 frame boxes. Stay in the norm is my advise. If you want to deviate it would be to use all mediums boxes as your standard because mediums are not very heavy, even full of honey. Other deviation is to use only 9 frames instead of 10 to make it easier to remove frames for inspection. I don't recommend using 9 frame metal spacers. They're a real pain when the bees propolis them up and you try to clean them so they fit. 
The standard for Langstroth boxes are #1 and #2 (bottom 2 boxes) brood boxes are deeps, medium boxes for honey supers on top of the deep boxes. Advise. Don't get fancy, stay with the norm and stay with purchasing your equipment from the major suppliers because some of the suppliers don't have the standard dimensions and frame seating height. 

With any hive you will need to put your hives on stands and have a method to keep ants and skunks from raiding your hives. If I recall they should be at least 18" off the ground.
Google: standard langstroth frame dimensions

We make our own stands from wood, 6 ft long and 18" off the ground so during inspection the boxes are off the ground. It doesn't show in the photo but I put cat food cans under all the legs of the stands then put small rocks in them so the bees don't drown and keep water up to the top so ants can't get to the hives. They will destroy them. We inspect starting on #1 following Michael Bush's book.





The Practical Beekeeper Volume I Beginning Beekeeping Naturally: Bush, Michael: 9781614760610: Amazon.com: Books


Buy The Practical Beekeeper Volume I Beginning Beekeeping Naturally on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders



www.amazon.com





You will also have to learn all about treating your bees for varroa mites. It is a must to be diligent. Natural with commercial bee semis coming through our freeways on their way to places where they provide pollinations serves throughout California cause constant mite problems.

My opinions that seem to work well. Hope this helps.









https://www.google.com/preferences


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

Organic Image said:


> If you want to try the 10 frame, look at QueenRightColonies.com they are locally owned and very knowledgeable. I dont know how many countless times I have been in a predicament and they have navigated me through it successfully. I keep a 10 frame hive, but after it is drawn out, I remove 1 frame in each box to be a nine frame. This gives more honey by volume in the supers. You will need a nine frame spacer for this. There is a lot of technical knowledge to learn if you really want to "keep" bees. Most people just "have" bees. Keep that in mind after you get your hives. Good luck! Oh, and all their hives are dipped when assembled, not sure about unassembled, but you can call and ask.


Appreciate it! I'll give them a look.


TehachapiGal said:


> Before getting bees make sure you and your family members are not allergic to bee stings. Also, check with your local government laws pertaining to if you are allowed to have bees. R1 zoned homes may not be allowed, A-agriculture is typically allowed with provisions that the hives a 2 or 3 hundred feet from neighbor resident homes.
> 
> Not a good idea to purchase based on "meticulous." Standard beehives are Langstroth, 10 frame boxes. Don't stray from the norm or as you purchase other equipment you will have few choices. The norm is 2 deep 10 frame Langthroth boxes for brood and as the hive matures and they're gathering honey, medium 10 frame boxes. Stay in the norm is my advise. If you want to deviate it would be to use all mediums boxes as your standard because mediums are not very heavy, even full of honey. Other deviation is to use only 9 frames instead of 10 to make it easier to remove frames for inspection. I don't recommend using 9 frame metal spacers. They're a real pain when the bees propolis them up and you try to clean them so they fit.
> The standard for Langstroth boxes are #1 and #2 (bottom 2 boxes) brood boxes are deeps, medium boxes for honey supers on top of the deep boxes. Advise. Don't get fancy, stay with the norm and stay with purchasing your equipment from the major suppliers because some of the suppliers don't have the standard dimensions and frame seating height.
> ...


Good advice, thanks. Going to call the town now.

I'm curious, what's that on the front of your hive? Some type of mouse guard?


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

There is one more important task. Your hive have to breath. ONLY use latex paint, not oil or outdoor paint. They will not allow the wood to breathe and the bees will cook.


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

Adamantium said:


> Appreciate it! I'll give them a look.
> 
> Good advice, thanks. Going to call the town now.
> 
> I'm curious, what's that on the front of your hive? Some type of mouse guard?


I use moving/robbing screens on all hives. It allows the beekeeper to limit the size of the opening. Occasionally, bees will rob a hive for a variety of reasons, indicated by bees flyinging around a colony, looking for a place to get in and rob it. Only the bees who inhabit the hive know how to get in and out easily. The robbers are usually hit and miss till they get in and learn how to get in. Robbers can destroy a weak hive within hours. So it's important to close down all entrances except the small one and leave it open so only 1 bee can get through at a time.








10 Frame Moving/Robbing Screen


Buy 10 Frame Moving/Robbing Screen at Mann Lake. Best & Biggest Beekeeping Supplier - Best Service.




www.mannlakeltd.com




The also sell ones for nucs and frame hives.

Experienced beekeepers continue to stay educated as new information comes to light.
I think the videos are still free.





Search Results for “videos” – Honey Bee Research Centre







honeybee.uoguelph.ca





Another great Canadian site: Strathcona Beekeepers' Library
The Beekeepers Library is excellent and downloadable to save.

This man is awesome. He is an Apiarist and should be one person to follow. Every year he holds online training. It's meant for new beekeepers and I took the courses 3 times that are free this last spring. I watched them all 3 times. Paul van Westendorp | BeeHIVE Research Cluster


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

TehachapiGal said:


> ONLY use latex paint, not oil or outdoor paint. They will not allow the wood to breathe and the bees will cook.


So FYI - hives dipped into the hot wax don't breathe and are similar to poly-hives in that.
Bees are doing fine - ask Michael Bush. 

And of course, bees are doing fine the real non-breathing poly-hives too.


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## snispel (Feb 10, 2020)

I have tried several companies and I like the BetterBee brand...and that's in your state. You could maybe save shipping. The joins are pretty clean and exact. I prime my boxes and coat with outdoor latex...only paint the outside exposed wood. 8 Frame Wooden Bee Hive Kits | Betterbee

I also have made my own hive components from cedar....no need to coat that. It naturally resists rotting.


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

GregV said:


> So FYI - hives dipped into the hot wax don't breathe and are similar to poly-hives in that.
> Bees are doing fine - ask Michael Bush.
> 
> And of course, bees are doing fine the real non-breathing poly-hives too.


I can't talk to dipping boxes in wax. Consistently it is the opinion that paints and stains require their ability to be breathable. Dadant: Painting Hives the Right Way | Dadant & Sons Learning Center


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

TehachapiGal said:


> I can't talk to dipping boxes in wax.


Well, this makes the boxes non-breathable.
Bees don't cook in non-breathable boxes.
Bees will cook without sufficient ventilation in hot conditions, which has nothing to do with the breathable wood or paint.


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## rdimanin (Jan 17, 2020)

GregV said:


> So FYI - hives dipped into the hot wax don't breathe and are similar to poly-hives in that.
> Bees are doing fine - ask Michael Bush.
> 
> And of course, bees are doing fine the real non-breathing poly-hives too.


I've been using non-breathing poly hives-Technosetbee, Anel & Apimaye-for several years & the bees love them.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Adamantium said:


> You think I should start with 4 hives?


4 is a good number , 1 good 2 medium and one struggling. so you have some comparing to do.

1 can be a challenge.
IMO setting up getting suited and such, the 3 or 4 is not much more time than 2.

4 is a good starting number, IMO

just seen some more posts, so then 2 can also be a good start point if funds dictate a smaller start.
I also make my hives so the math is different.

GG


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

Giving advice is a tricky thing. Just know that people don’t want to discourage you as much as they want to be realistic. This hobby requires tenacity, logic, patience, determination and an appetite for pain. It’s also expensive. I have very rudimentary carpentry skills but that does not have to rule the day. What does rule the day are people who continue when others quit. Wishing you the best while you see if its right for you.


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

This is what I use.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Adamantium said:


> Well, I was hoping to only spend ~$300-500. Now it’s looking like I’ll be spending a decent bit more since I’m getting two hives. That’s, at a minimum, ~$400. Over $600 if I get both preassembled. $1000+ with two nucs. And then all the equipment, much of which has to be doubled up (feeders, stands, etc).


Yeah, this isn't cheap by any means. But if you learn how to keep/grow bees, they pay for themselves in pretty short order.

More generally...
I don't know anything about reef(whatever), but I'm guessing that's reef aquariums and the likely challenges associated with that. I kept several freshwater aquariums many years ago before giving it up when I left for college. Not nearly as technical as saltwater or reef, but...
Bonsai is something that I have wanted to try for probably a decade or more, but just never quite pull the trigger as I know that I have a tendency to go too deep. I will eventually give it a shot.

Bees were kind of the same way. When I was a kid my grandpa and dad kept bees (starting late 70s and gave up in the early 90s). We helped with extraction around Labor Day every year and in the summers we threw grasshoppers, crickets, and pillbugs at the hives to see what the bees would do. And then ran for the lilac bushes if they got angry.

When varroa started destroying bees in the US, they eventually gave up as they simply couldn't keep bees alive anymore. 
Beekeeping was always in the back of my mind as I aged and I looked into doing it when I graduated from college, but it wasn't legal in the city I lived in (and I rented, though the landlords wouldn't have cared). As soon as I moved back home my brother kind of asked me off the cuff if I wanted to keep bees. That was... 7 years ago now. Brother was never really that involved and just doesn't have the same thirst for knowledge that I do for these things. Or at least did not at the time. I actually dropped off a single deep and a double deep at his acreage last week. 

I spun right into it and the 'hobby' just fits me and my likes/passions perfectly. If you like to watch things grow and you can handle loss/disappointment well, then beekeeping may absolutely be for you. For me, it's the queen rearing that most drives me beekeeping desire. I absolutely love that aspect of it. The honey is what sells better, though.  I think you'll be fine at beekeeping. But you're likely to be completely lousy to start with. Watch a bunch of Michael Palmer videos on YouTube. If you can "monkey see, monkey do" with any aptitude then you'll be fine. The understanding will lag some of the actions in a lot of cases. But as you get some experience you'll learn the why and then ideally, be able to prevent a lot of the issues before they even crop up. 

There's no shame in buying pre-made hives. I was buying unassembled ones for a few years. Then was trying to supplement and "save money" by cutting my own and putting them together. That's for the birds. I rented a big enclosed trailer and drove 5 hours one way and bought basically all of the bee boxes that I'll ever really need a few years ago and I'm glad that I did. They're not as great of quality as the ones I was assembling. But they're better than the ones that I was cutting myself. And they were already assembled and ready to go. Paint... I understand what you were trying to say, I think. But rest assured, you basically cannot screw up painting a beehive as long as you just paint the outside of it.



Gray Goose said:


> Do try to keep bees it is a lot of fun and such.
> also the folks here are just offering the experience of seeing many struggle..
> More than 50% of the folks I have mentored did not make it to year 4.
> 
> ...


The most shocking thing, to me, is talking to a beekeeper who is interested in buying a queen for me or a nuc or something...
I'll talk with them about a hive they have that's struggling or something like that. Or a nuc or package that never took off that they bought from someone else. And in my head I'm kind of forming my opinion on what kind of beekeeper they are. It never ceases to amaze me how LITTLE most beekeepers that I talk to know. There's people leading clubs around here that might not be able to identify what kind of brood they're looking at more than about half of the time and they've had bees for more than a decade. 
I've had people pick up queen cells from me (I usually give them away when I have extras). And I send them in roller cages. I talk them through how to put the cell into the comb. And if possible I'll grab an empty comb and physically show them. Most people do OK with this. But a guy that'd been keeping bees for a few years came and got some a couple of years ago and we talked through, I showed him, and then like three weeks later he called to talk about what might have happened as none of the queens emerged. That's crazy, I think, as a cell not emerging is very very rare for me. It turned out that he put the cell in the comb IN the roller cage. And then, I don't know... somehow expected her like pick the lock and get out? I flat out do not understand what his thought process was for that entire sequence of events.

As long as they're getting what they want to out of beekeeping (and in a lot of cases that simply to be able to say "I'm a beekeeper" to friends and co-workers), it's not my place to really pass any sort of judgement on them. I guess what I'm saying is it's a little astounding to me how poorly people accept being at certain things. With certain things it makes sense like golf or racquet ball or whatever. Everyone is wired differently, I guess.

Over the years I've had people ask if I want to buy their bees or their equipment. I am always really honest with them and tell them that I'd love to buy their bees, but they would be absolutely insulted by my offer. And similarly with their equipment, I have enough of my own because that's kind of what being a successful beekeeper requires.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

jwcarlson said:


> Yeah, this isn't cheap by any means. But if you learn how to keep/grow bees, they pay for themselves in pretty short order.
> 
> More generally...
> I don't know anything about reef(whatever), but I'm guessing that's reef aquariums and the likely challenges associated with that. I kept several freshwater aquariums many years ago before giving it up when I left for college. Not nearly as technical as saltwater or reef, but...
> ...


Thank you so very much for the thorough reply. This is very reassuring, as I feel I have a lot of those same attributes.

One interesting tidbit I’ve noticed is that most of the hobby seems to consist of older males. Ages 40-60. I’m a younger guy, so it seems like it’ll be a bit tougher to “break in”, but to be honest, after dealing with a few different beekeepers, I’m not so sure I want to. I might just stick to myself for the most part and learn from literature, YouTube, and my own mistakes.

I’ve had a few guys rub me the wrong way. Just sort of acting holier-than-thou and grumpy. One blatantly exploded at me over absolutely nothing. I think he, in particular, was a bit unhinged, though.

Don’t get me wrong, it seems like there are a LOT of great people in this hobby (yourself, for example), I’m just getting a bit of a sour taste in my mouth from the few that are bitter grumps.

That won’t deter me, though. I’m very determined to do this.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Adamantium said:


> Thank you so very much for the thorough reply. This is very reassuring, as I feel I have a lot of those same attributes.
> 
> One interesting tidbit I’ve noticed is that most of the hobby seems to consist of older males. Ages 40-60. I’m a younger guy, so it seems like it’ll be a bit tougher to “break in”, but to be honest, after dealing with a few different beekeepers, I’m not so sure I want to. I might just stick to myself for the most part and learn from literature, YouTube, and my own mistakes.
> 
> ...


I'm "only" 36, but agree. It's a bit of a role reversal kind of "teaching" much older folks who have more "years" of experience keeping bees than I do. As long as I'm not being arrogant about it, the burden is on them to be able to accept that they've got something to learn. Not claiming to be some master beekeeper or anything like that. But I think it throws a lot of my potential customers for a loop. I've not sold queens to at least 4 or 5 people in the last few weeks because I talk to them and listen to what they're saying. A couple of them are hopeless, laying worker situations. "Don't waste your money." But a few of them were more like, it sounds like they swarmed. Check for eggs again in a week. And magically the queens start laying when you know how to do the bee math.

I'm pretty much self-taught. But would credit a LOT of beekeepers on YouTube and even here in helping teach me what I should do. And maybe more importantly what I SHOULDN'T do. Hell, I started with horizontal hives! I still attribute that as my biggest beekeeping mistake. So you're starting off better than I did! 

I cringe when the first thing people do is suggest someone track down a local club. I've been to the local club meetings here. The general rule is that there are great people at the local clubs. And almost all of them are really not very good beekeepers. Mostly it's people who don't seem to want to move beyond the general. Like how many times are we going to talk about how to keep your bees alive in the winter? And what to do in the spring? It should be second nature. Let's talk about getting more people raising their own queens locally so that if I want to bring in some new queens I can just shoot Joe who lives 10 minutes away a text and exchange a handful of queens next week so that we both can get some diversity/testing in... I understand that's really kind of a next level type of activity (queen rearing), but to me a few people who rear queens talking about that process and what they see has almost everything there is to know about keeping bees baked into it for anyone who might be listening with an active ear.

Nothing at all wrong with keeping to yourself.  There's a guy kind of locally who is the dad of one of my wife's friends. Been keeping bees quite awhile. She gave me his email address my first year. And he didn't really have many good answers for me. Learned that he was buying like 30 packages a year to keep his apiary stocked and that was the last thing I really needed to learn. One of the first things I asked him is what he did to manage varroa. And he didn't say anything. Hence the need to buy 30 packages every year. Similar to another local semi-commercial guy. People will ask me if I ever talk to him or if I know him. I know of him. And I know every spring if I drive past his apiaries he's shaking in dozens of packages into his easy-to-see-from-the-road beeyards. I'm sure he knows a lot about bees, but I'm not sure that's the guy I want to learn from. Similarly, I've only really taken on one person as a mentee semiofficially. A dad of a kid I went to school with. He has a desire to learn and has been pretty successful for the most part. But I've had a different guy contact me for three straight years wanting to watch me graft. And every year I ask him what his bee situation is and it's always that he's got a few hives and didn't have any luck over the winter. But wants to start raising queens. I'm sorry, friend... but I don't have a lot of interest in investing my time with someone who can't keep any of their bees alive. If that guy called wanting to know how he could keep his bees alive, I'd probably be a lot more receptive. But having him watch me move larva out of a cell and into a plastic cup isn't going to be of any value to either of us.

I bought three packages my first year and haven't bought bees (other than queens for trying out new stuff: Michael Palmer's, Saskatraz, etc) since. Yeah, I've lost some bees. And I've had winters that I lost more than half of my bees. But instead of blaming the honey flow or the soybeans, I troubleshoot it down to where I'm pretty confident that I know what happened and how I caused it to get to that point. And of course how next winter is going to be different (notice I didn't say better haha).

There's a ton of great people here and a lot of them are older guys and they might seem like they're being mean. But guys like Roland, OldTimer, Crofter, and many others are simply speaking succinctly and from experience. This whole message might take me two minutes to compose, but a guy who is 65 or 70 might take a half an hour to pound out something like this. So they hit the high point(s) and click post reply. You'll get a feel for what members are like that and as long as you don't take it personally/get defensive, there's so much value in what they're saying!

I've barely been here for a few years or more just because it got a little dumb here for a bit with a few members and I liked stirring the pot with some of them.
It seems different now, but that might be mostly me (or the absence of one particular idiot). I've made a good number of 'friends' on here in private messages that I still talk to fairly frequently, at least one of them daily and a few of them more seasonally.


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## Newbeek2021 (May 13, 2021)

Love your outlook on everything!


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

jwcarlson said:


> I'm "only" 36, but agree. It's a bit of a role reversal kind of "teaching" much older folks who have more "years" of experience keeping bees than I do. As long as I'm not being arrogant about it, the burden is on them to be able to accept that they've got something to learn. Not claiming to be some master beekeeper or anything like that. But I think it throws a lot of my potential customers for a loop. I've not sold queens to at least 4 or 5 people in the last few weeks because I talk to them and listen to what they're saying. A couple of them are hopeless, laying worker situations. "Don't waste your money." But a few of them were more like, it sounds like they swarmed. Check for eggs again in a week. And magically the queens start laying when you know how to do the bee math.
> 
> I'm pretty much self-taught. But would credit a LOT of beekeepers on YouTube and even here in helping teach me what I should do. And maybe more importantly what I SHOULDN'T do.
> 
> ...


That's great (being friends with forum members), and I totally get what you're saying. There's a reefing forum I frequent that's the same way. Some of the most knowledgeable people are older men that are pretty gruff in their responses. Moreso when someone really doesn't know what they're talking about. But I respect it, because I know it comes from a place of experience.

The guy I dealt with most recently was just a real kook, and when I deal with people like that, unfortunately, it really wears on me. He went ballistic when I asked if we could push back picking up the nuc by a week so I was more well equipped to receive it. Something he had previously agreed to. He proceeded to say I was a dumbass and would be a headache. I genuinely have no idea why. I hadn't been bugging him with questions, or asking for anything beyond what he had offered. I'm just chalking it up to him being an *******, and, frankly, I'm glad I didn't support an ******* with my money.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jwcarlson said:


> Hell, I started with horizontal hives! I still attribute that as my biggest beekeeping mistake


How is this a mistake?
LOL

Must be the TBHs.


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## KellyW (May 16, 2020)

Not many hobbies are cheap when you get into them seriously. You can start cycling with a $300 bike but pretty soon you want the $2000 one then the $5000 one …. I even know runners that spend more on shoes in one year than I will ever spend on beekeeping. The thing about beekeeping is much of the cost is up front. If you stay a backyard keeper (2-5 colonies) and can keep your bees alive, the expenses stay fairly minimal. As with any hobby, you can always spend $ on beekeeping. Better protective gear, more colonies, an extractor (or that bigger shinier extractor) … the list goes on. But you don’t need all those things and can keep your costs down.
Good luck.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Adamantium said:


> He went ballistic when I asked if we could push back picking up the nuc by a week so I was more well equipped to receive it. Something he had previously agreed to. He proceeded to say I was a dumbass and would be a headache.


Adamantium,
I would not be judgemental in your place and stop this right here.
I don't know who said what - BUT, you do realize you may have screwed up the guy's time-frames and/or he lost another customer as he went with you.
In the bee business one week may decide a lot of things and cost a lot of money.
And so you did no pay a penny, but someone maybe out of real bucks.

You didn't even soil you own bee jacket yet.
So, cool of.


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## KellyW (May 16, 2020)

GregV said:


> In the bee business one week may decide everything.


Agreed. When I bought my one and only nuc it wouldn’t have lasted a week without swarming because it was so packed.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

GregV said:


> Adamantium,
> I would not be judgemental in your place and stop this right here.
> I don't know who said what - BUT, you do realize you may have screwed up the guy's time-frames and/or he lost another customer as he went with you.
> In the bee business one week may decide a lot of things and cost a lot of money.
> ...


It was just strange, really. He was fine with either week in our previous correspondence, then suddenly wasn’t. He also made it abundantly clear that he “has plenty of money” and doesn’t care about selling nucs. He does it for fun. It was just such a bizarre explosion.

Point taken, though. I would never want to screw anything up for him, but if he really needed me to pick them up that week, he simply could’ve communicated that to me. Good communication is an under valued skill in life.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Adamantium said:


> The guy I dealt with most recently was just a real kook, and when I deal with people like that, unfortunately, it really wears on me. He went ballistic when I asked if we could push back picking up the nuc by a week so I was more well equipped to receive it. Something he had previously agreed to. He proceeded to say I was a dumbass and would be a headache. I genuinely have no idea why. I hadn't been bugging him with questions, or asking for anything beyond what he had offered. I'm just chalking it up to him being an *, and, frankly, I'm glad I didn't support an * with my money.


I'll echo what GregV said. It does sound like he was OK with either week, but people have a way of talking past each other. Maybe he thought you were decided or heavily leaning one way or another. I would never blow up on someone. But if someone is going to come get a nuc on a Sunday and then wanted to delay it to the next Sunday, that means I've got to go 'deal' with that nuc, because I try to make up my nucs so that they'd be swarming in a week if they didn't get dropped into a bigger box within a day or two. So I can understand the frustration. I, too, sell nucs for fun(ding the bees). I do not need to sell them, but am usually willing to make them up if someone wants one.

I had a guy contact me three years ago wanting a nuc after I'd sold all of mine. "Maybe next year."
He contacts me the following year and wanted one, but I'd had a kind of cruddy winter and didn't want to sell any. That year is on me.
This year he contacted me and we talked at least 3-4 times to help him be prepared or whatever. I told him that I was good to go for selling nucs this year sometime in January or February, I think. As I'd seen what was flying and relative strength on a warm winter day. So I call him up "I can have your two nucs ready next weekend, what day do you want to get them." He starts hemming and hawing. "Let me ask my wife." Calls back a the next day and doesn't want bees anymore. Thankfully he was open BEFORE pickup day. And I get it... stuff comes up. Maybe he doesn't have the $350 bucks to drop on bees because his water heater broke and his truck blew two tires out or something. But just tell me that. This was, albeit, a relatively small time investment... but a multi-year 'relationship' and buildup and then when it all goes to finally pay off (on both sides) the guy just slips into the ether. It's a little frustrating.

Same thing happens with honey ALL THE TIME. Get everything setup and no show... then set something else up and another no show. It's just disrespectful. If I told someone I'd have their honey ready at some time and day and they showed up and I didn't... I would give them whatever they ordered for free and maybe even something extra. Because I respect their time as it takes an additional time investment to seek honey from me compared to just buying it at Walmart when you're there. And I greatly value that. I hope that my queen/nuc customers similarly value the time I invest with them getting to know what's actually going on and supporting them before/after the actual purchase (if a purchase even happens... in a lot of cases I just do a free bee consultation over the phone/email/text, and I'm fine with that as I can't imagine that person ever going somewhere else when they eventually do need a queen). I think most do, but there's also some that don't want to hear what I'm telling them so they just keep chucking expensive, shipped queens into a hive that shouldn't be requeened yet. It's really easy to unnecessarily create urgency when you're beekeeping. "This queen should already be laying!" "I'm going to have laying workers if I don't get a queen in this hive RIGHT NOW!" "There's no brood and the queen STILL isn't laying." It's next to impossible to convince people that their hive that swarmed will be well and completely broodless by the time the new queen starts laying. That's just the way it has to work because of how long it takes for things to unfold. The ones that will listen are often rewarded with a nice, fat laying queen from their colony. The ones that don't will likely contact me a few weeks later with additional queen woes "I bought a queen from XYZ Bees two weeks ago and when I let her out of the cage the day after I put her in they balled her."
At what point is it not worth trying to correct them anymore? At some point I just end up picturing a petulant child on the other end...
"You told me no queen. But website sold me queen all day long so I bought website queen and then was immediately happy because I'm helping bees. But _big pouty face_, website queen got killed and she was $35 and it cost me $20 to have her shipped. And I had to wait a few days, which is what you told me to do anyway, but website doesn't care what happened to website queen so now I'm back talking to the guy who WOULDN'T sell me an EXPENSIVE $40 queen when I didn't need one. I don't know why my bees seem to be constantly queenless. Also, can you send me a picture of what brood looks like? Here's what I've got, still plenty of bees, and I want to try to save them. _18 bees (12 of them drones) on a half drawn comb with no honey and scattered drone brood.jpg_"

🤣

If nothing else I've learned that if you're telling someone you've already spent $190 on a nuc and $60+ on replacement queen/queens and they're telling to STOP spending money... that person is probably worth listening to because you're kind of telling them you're too dumb to know what's going on so you just want to throw money at it and they're trying to save you from yourself.
It's a never ending cycle, and to be honest, I'm too attached to my queens to knowingly sell them into bad circumstances. It's a waste of money for the buyer. A waste of a queen for me. And anything bad is ALWAYS blamed on the queen, so they're unlikely to be repeat customers anyway.

I'm going to come up with some sort of deposit/waitlist this winter as I am to the point where unless I have a total loss, I should have a good number of nucs to sell every year. So maybe take deposits up to like 10 nucs. And then waitlist after that. I'm not in it to screw anyone, so if someone would call and say "hey, I just don't think I should buy bees this year." I'd give them their money back. But if it's just a no-show or sudden no-response... well, I'm not free. It's a way to separate the two types of people interested in nucs. The ones that really aren't and the ones that actually are. _shrug_ You might have caught the guy at a particularly frustrating week of people treating him kind of crappy. So I wouldn't necessarily burn him at the stake.

*Sorry for the tangent(s).*



GregV said:


> How is this a mistake?
> LOL
> 
> Must be the TBHs.


Yes, TBHs specifically. I could see a long Langstroth being OK, but the way bees take to vertical compared to horizontal, I don't know that I would ever bother. I might someday make a nice, big LL if I could convince myself that, say, ten two or three frame mating nucs would still be able to find their way home reliably (and then maybe even winter a big unit). But that's a lot of work so unlikely that I'll ever do it!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jwcarlson said:


> Hell, I started with horizontal hives! I still attribute that as my biggest beekeeping mistake..........
> 
> Yes, TBHs specifically. I could see a long Langstroth being OK, ...........


I can see how the lack of info on the horizontal hives did you in.


But of course they do have their own downfalls too, no doubt. 
It is just a different tool to be use appropriately.


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## GFWestTexas (Jul 10, 2021)

Adamantium said:


> It was just strange, really. He was fine with either week in our previous correspondence, then suddenly wasn’t. He also made it abundantly clear that he “has plenty of money” and doesn’t care about selling nucs. He does it for fun. It was just such a bizarre explosion.
> 
> Point taken, though. I would never want to screw anything up for him, but if he really needed me to pick them up that week, he simply could’ve communicated that to me. Good communication is an under valued skill in life.


Wow, so is sticking with your goals, finishing what you start, not giving up because someone rubbed you the wrong way, and treating others as you would like to be treated. Everything you do in life someone taught you and you learned, or you wanted bad enough to go after it on your own. I started by building swarm traps, caught three that year with three traps built from OS&B board, I found in a trash can, and lumber from pallets I tore down. Couldn’t afford hives so went to library checked out a book on building beekeeping equipment, to this day I still make the majority of my own equipment. You can learn to do anything, but if some people telling you you may not be cut out for this, is going to stop you . Then they where probably right, if you want to learn, and pursue beekeeping you will do it. Hope you don’t let anyone stop you from pursuit of anything education, hobbies, career anything.


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

jwcarlson said:


> I'll echo what GregV said. It does sound like he was OK with either week, but people have a way of talking past each other. Maybe he thought you were decided or heavily leaning one way or another. I would never blow up on someone. But if someone is going to come get a nuc on a Sunday and then wanted to delay it to the next Sunday, that means I've got to go 'deal' with that nuc, because I try to make up my nucs so that they'd be swarming in a week if they didn't get dropped into a bigger box within a day or two. So I can understand the frustration. I, too, sell nucs for fun(ding the bees). I do not need to sell them, but am usually willing to make them up if someone wants one.
> 
> I had a guy contact me three years ago wanting a nuc after I'd sold all of mine. "Maybe next year."
> He contacts me the following year and wanted one, but I'd had a kind of cruddy winter and didn't want to sell any. That year is on me.
> ...


This is a completely fair assessment. If I really was causing him trouble by delaying pick up, though (something he had previously said would be fine), I wish he would've just said that. If he had communicated that, I would've moved things around to make it work.

It's really not a big deal, but it's hard not to be a little shaken up when someone blows up on you out of the blue. If I did something wrong, I didn't know it, so all he had to do was explain his side. I really think he was just a bit off his rocker. He was telling me all about how much money he has, what his property taxes are, and how he retired young, all completely unprovoked. Also, that he hates beekeeping associations for some reason (gee, I wonder why?).


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## Adamantium (Jun 28, 2021)

GFWestTexas said:


> Wow, so is sticking with your goals, finishing what you start, not giving up because someone rubbed you the wrong way, and treating others as you would like to be treated. Everything you do in life someone taught you and you learned, or you wanted bad enough to go after it on your own. I started by building swarm traps, caught three that year with three traps built from OS&B board, I found in a trash can, and lumber from pallets I tore down. Couldn’t afford hives so went to library checked out a book on building beekeeping equipment, to this day I still make the majority of my own equipment. You can learn to do anything, but if some people telling you you may not be cut out for this, is going to stop you . Then they where probably right, if you want to learn, and pursue beekeeping you will do it. Hope you don’t let anyone stop you from pursuit of anything education, hobbies, career anything.


I won't. I know there's a lot going on in this thread at this point, but I made it clear that I'm determined to do this. Earlier on in the thread I was just commenting on the somewhat lukewarm welcome. I completely understand where people were coming from, though.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

GregV said:


> I can see how the lack of info on the horizontal hives did you in.
> 
> 
> But of course they do have their own downfalls too, no doubt.
> It is just a different tool to be use appropriately.


To be clear, I was very successful with TBHs. Never lost one over winter. Built up from three packages to, I think, 8 colonies in TBHs as I recall. But about this time of the year in year two I cut everything out from those swarm machines and haven't looked back since.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jwcarlson said:


> swarm machines


Exactly.
Size of a large swarm trap - what else to expect. LOL
If go horizontal, you go big.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

thee Carlson - thanks for the compliment. Remember that some of us had to work all day under threatening rain, got stung around a 100 times, and ran out of patience hours ago. 

It is possible that the gentleman selling the nuc had knowledge of a situation with the hive, or weather, or plants, etc....that made THIS week much better than NEXT week. Often timing is everything, and he might have been stung 100 times that day, and did not have the 2 hours to explain how a situation with the hive, or the weather, or the plants, or any of the interactions between the above, made one week prudent, and the other a fools errand.

Sorry , but I must go, got stung 100 times working under threatening skys.

Crazy Roland


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

GregV said:


> So FYI - hives dipped into the hot wax don't breathe and are similar to poly-hives in that.
> Bees are doing fine - ask Michael Bush.
> 
> And of course, bees are doing fine the real non-breathing poly-hives too.


Bees fan their wings to keep the hive at around 95 F and honey at of ratio of 80% sugar and 18% water before capping it. If the hive is too warm the bees have to work harder. Ventilation is important. If I recall one of the purposes of using water based paint is so that the hive doesn't collect moisture. In winter it can cause fatal hive problems if moisture can't escape and cold moisture collects on the cover, dripping on the cluster. I personally don't know anything about dipping boxes in wax. However, wax and oil based paint are very different from each other. Not apples to apples. Maybe some one else can shed light on the topic. I follow what I read and what seems like common sense.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

KellyW said:


> Agreed. When I bought my one and only nuc it wouldn’t have lasted a week without swarming because it was so packed.


I picked up 10 NUCs last year 4 for me and six for a bee buddy.
we hived them that same day,, 4 of his 6 had queen cells started.
2 more of mine had capped cells in 5 days so were started, but I missed them hiving, at least had an egg.
they were delayed a week due to weather, and were at the edge of being too full and swarm.
A NUC is built for a delivery day, 2 weeks late is a swarming NUC. 2 weeks early will look weak to the average buyer. I now say call me when you are ready and I'll be there the next or what ever day you prefer. works better

if possible let the grower dictate the pick up date. Maybe even get a cancelation....

Also I did the first 20 years keeping with only 1 book "the hive and the honey bee" the bees will show you what they want if you pay attention. so if you prefer to be a loner , it can be done.

Agree with the above, I do not do meetings, I guess I would not want to associate with any group having such low entry standards as to allow me into the group.


GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Roland said:


> thee Carlson - thanks for the compliment. Remember that some of us had to work all day under threatening rain, got stung around a 100 times, and ran out of patience hours ago.
> 
> It is possible that the gentleman selling the nuc had knowledge of a situation with the hive, or weather, or plants, etc....that made THIS week much better than NEXT week. Often timing is everything, and he might have been stung 100 times that day, and did not have the 2 hours to explain how a situation with the hive, or the weather, or the plants, or any of the interactions between the above, made one week prudent, and the other a fools errand.
> 
> ...


it was a touch and go today, I needed to sing to the bees to distract them from the impending weather.
restless they were.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

TehachapiGal said:


> In winter it can cause fatal hive problems if moisture can't escape and cold moisture collects on the cover, dripping on the cluster...
> ...I follow what I read and what seems like common sense.


You see, this all has nothing to do with the "breath-ability" of the hive boxes.
You got some confused ideas here even if these may sound like common sense to you. 

Anyway, in California does not matter much; you don't need to worry about it.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> You see, this all has nothing to do with the "breath-ability" of the hive boxes.
> You got some confused ideas here even if these may sound like common sense to you.


LOL 

The bottom line is that wood *doesn't* 'breath' - if anyone thinks it does, then just lie in a coffin made from the thinnest and most porous wood on Earth (balsa ?) and get someone to nail the lid shut and see how long you last ...

I really don't know why people keep on saying this. Wood absorbs moisure and then - eventually, and often very slowly - that moisture evaporates into the atmosphere. But - that moisture does not pass* through* the wood. 'Breathing' is a term normally applied to the free and easy movement of gases, most notably air, either in or out of some structure, or through it. So we talk of permeable insulation for example as being 'breathable', where* air can freely pass through that material* - likewise Gore-tex(tm), a waterproof material which allows* air* *to pass through it*, carrying air-laden moisture as it does so. Wood doesn't.

For anyone puzzled about the advantages of painting wooden beehives on the inside (as I do), see Ed Clarke's 'Constructive Beekeeping', 1918. There's a copy at: https://biobees.com/library/general..._articles/ConstructiveBeekeeping_EdClarke.pdf
A propolis and/or wax coating would be better, I agree - but I use paint at the time of construction out of convenience (and habit). 
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> The bottom line is that wood *doesn't* 'breath' - if anyone thinks it does, then just lie in a coffin made from the thinnest and most porous wood on Earth (balsa ?) and get someone to nail the lid shut and see how long you last ...


LOL
Anyway.... moving along.


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