# Plastic 4.9m on first regression.



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Last time I tried the plastic 4.9 it was with small cell bees. It worked pretty well with a couple of exceptions they drew it mostly correctly.

This time I put some large cell bees on it and they have totally messed it up. They keep trying to build comb between the two frames at right angles to the foundation.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend the plastic for first regressions.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>This time I put some large cell bees on it and they have totally messed it up. They keep trying to build comb between the two frames at right angles to the foundation.

That's the problem I had with Pierco and full size bees.


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Same here Bullseye - I found that with a whole box of Pierco I had a lot of misdrawn comb. If they have a few frames of 5.4 to go with it I seem to have better luck.

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Rob Koss


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

I've had my own problems with large cell bees moved directly onto drawn 4.9. Another time I'm going to do it in two steps, large cell to 5.1, then 5.1 to 4.9. They don't like changing size at all.

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Regards,

Robert Brenchley

[email protected]
Birmingham UK


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

I'm having better luck with packaged bees hived on nuc with only plastic 4.9 during a flow.

there is still resistance - building comb inside a frame feeder, building on the sides of the nuc rather than the middle.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Well I gave up and pulled all the undrawn 4.9mm plastic out of my Dadant deep hive and put in one frame of 4.9 wax and two foundationless frames. I was a little afraid since they already were messing it up that they would mess up worse with these in the hive, but they quickly started the entire sheet of wax 4.9. Every cell is partially and beautifully drawn already and I put it in just three days ago. They haven't started on the foundationless because it's on the outside edge and they haven't moved over that far yet.

I will just use the plastic 4.9mm in the center of brood nests of established small cell hives from now on.

The large cell bees seem to hate it.


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

Went into 4 hives started on 4.9 plastic from packages. Not a pretty site. Still trying but the hives are not taking off like they should be. If they haven't drawn 3 or 4 frames each by the end of the flow I am going to resort to new foundation. 

I plan to add some 4.9 wax like you did Michael. At first I was afraid to start with it, thinking they would ruin it during regression. Maybe I thought wrong.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They will draw it about 5.1mm or so, but that's not ruined, just a first regression.

I have given up on the plastic, at least until they are regressed. They finally got about three frames of it drawn nicely but it was too much of a battle. I pulled the rest out and put in one frame of wax and the rest are foundationless frames. I just did the wax to get things straight again.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

I was considering getting some foundation for regression work, and helping create some uniformity. After having regressed the bees, using these predrawn foundatoin combs for starting any new bees on until they are uniform and all subcastes doing the same thing. (i.e. for 1st 2 months of any installation), then letting them build their own like I do now.

I found from installing packages fresh in foundationless hives that the subcastes don't always agree on what to do, and sometime segregate themselves and build their own thing within the cluster. Giving the bees a few months to establish subcaste dominance I think will help. After all the bees from the package have died off and all bees are queen's offspring, then I can let them build their own again.

Sound like a good plan?

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Scot Mc Pherson
Foundationless Small Cell Top Bar Hives
BeeWiki: <A HREF="http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/" TARGET=_blank>
http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/</A>
Pics:
http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/pics/bees/


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## WineMan (May 16, 2003)

hey guys i drew some 4.9 plastic foundation this spring. it was a first for me. put on about 150 frames and ended up with about 80 decent frames. which happens to be about the same as with pierco but we have had virtually zero flow this year so that probably explains the results with both.

i dont have any small cell bees to work with but i see a fair amount of similarity of getting pierco and plastic small cell drawn.

first the bees wont touch either if they can at all avoid it. they do love wax or no foundation at all.

second, some bees simply dont like to draw comb. suspect that over the years drawing comb hasnt been top on the pick list of genetic traits breeders have selected for. i run into a fair number of colonies that will only run odd brace comb between pierco frames and will never pull it out even on a flow.

i see a number of the small cell frames that have larger than 4.9 cells. guess this is what you guys mean by a first regression. all i have used for years is pierco and i will add that you get a very similar thing with pierco as far as drawing the cell size. my bees will readily turn the outside frames of a full box of pierco into a mixture of cell sizes particularly for drones and honey storage (cant say that i recall them ever turning it into smaller cell sizes though). they seldom touch the center frames and the trend is much more noticeable after a couple of years and if i have two entire boxes of pierco on, at which time they will tear down cells and redo them. guess they build what they want, where they want, when they want.


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

just looking for updates. My bees are regressed already and they simply aren't touching the plastic small cell. I've heard from others that have regressed bees that have had similar results. Either it's ignored or cross combed like crazy. Is anyone really pleased with it or are the results 'acceptable?' I've had great results with other plastic(so far 100% perfect - keeping my fingers crossed)...just not this stuff, yet.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My regressed bees seem to do ok with it. Occasional crosscombs but mostly using it when they are already regressed to 4.9mm But they just would not work it at ALL when they were not regressed.

Have you tried the usual treatments for plastic? Spraying with syrup? Spraying with HBH syrup?

Maybe you can dip it in wax?


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

I find waxing plastic is essential, but its just a matter of painting a bit on with a brush; once they start pulling the stuff, they'll get there in the end, in their own good time.

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Regards,

Robert Brenchley

[email protected]
Birmingham UK


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

update...they've started to work it. I dunno if I don't have properly regressed bees or not, but they did some fine, but some awful and a lot of cross comb


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## tony williams (Sep 16, 2004)

dose anyone understand the zip lock bag photo? i did not understand the zip lock bag photo.tony williams thank anyway 

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tony


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

What zip lock bag photo?

Some people use them for feeders by filling them and cutting little slits in them.


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