# Hopguard II and Hive Kills



## CircleBee (Mar 3, 2012)

Wanted to see if anyone else out there has had any issues like I've just experience with applying Hopguard or Hopguard II. Also want to share this so that those thinking of its use will be careful. I would post pics of my collapsed hive, but I am not seeing an option to do so...maybe I don't have posting rights yet???

Background, I have several NUC/single deeps that I was going to try to over winter and was looking for a mite treatment that I could apply to a smaller hive. Thought Hopguard II might be a good, less harmful treatment method. Also, I applied the strips in both cases below as the directions said, one strip per full 5 frames of bees. Each hive that was killed was a single deep and two strips were applied separated by at least two frames. This is my 5th year keeping bees, I have 15 hives, and my hives have always been healthy (save for the winter die offs we all experience).

I first noticed an issue two weeks ago when I applied Hopguard II to a Hive at a friends house that we were noticing had deformed wing virus. To make a long story short, the hive collapsed within that two week period (don't know the exact timing since my friend did not check on them in that two week period). When I opened it up I immediately noticed a large number of bees on the top of the inner cover dead. Upon opening the hive, there were maybe two frames of bees left out of the ten the hive had prior. All around the Hopguard strips were dead bees. And covering the entire bottom board was the other hive bees dead. I was puzzled because my friend has 5 other hives and all was well with them. I thought that maybe something had happened causing the entrance to be plugged and they overheated killing them as that's all I could figure would wipe an entire hive out inside the hive at this time of year.

Now without a doubt, I know that it was a Hopguard II kill because I just applied it to a beautiful, thriving single deep hive not 24 hours ago, and it too has been wiped out in the exact way (wish I could post the pics of the carnage). Only this time I know that it was not an over heating issue since about a quarter of the hive was found bearding outside it in the AM and bees were still coming and going. The carnage inside the hive was complete though, just like the first.

Any suggestions on what I should do now...???...contact the manufacturer, etc?? I am at a loss...


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## Steve zone 5 WI (Jan 2, 2013)

I cannot answer your questions but I need to keep track of this thread as I am considering using Hopguard.

Thanks
Steve


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

I'd start immediate emails starting with the lot number, might be some quality control issue that they need to know about. I know I talked to a commercial beek that tried it when it first came out and he said that it burned the grass in front of the hives and had queen losses.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> I would post pics of my collapsed hive, but I am not seeing an option to do so..

The image upload button is the 3rd from the right in the "Quick Reply" window. The Icon looks like a rectangle with larger dots in the 4 corners.

In the screen shot below, the Insert Image icon is the second from the right ...









To use this feature, your photo must *not *be oversize. The image must be 800 pixels or less in height and width, and overall file size no more than 195 Kb.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

In addition to the manufacturer I suggest contacting Washington Dept. of Agriculture and Washington State Beekeepers Association.

What you experienced puzzles me as our state Apiarist (Maine) is promoting autumn usage of HG II.

If you were seeing DWV at your friend's yard, those hives _*may*_ have had too many mites for Hopguard II to save.

In any event I will be following this thread closely as I have some on order.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

If you go with OAV you won't have that problems and it's cheap .


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Treatments like Hopguard and thymol can disrupt the hive enough in the first few days after application that they can become more prone to getting robbed out. If the temperatures are high and the hive weakened from mites, the problem can be compounded. That would be my first guess.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

This is the first report of Hopguard II use I have seen. I wonder what other users have experienced?


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## CircleBee (Mar 3, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I will keep everyone posted on what I hear from the Manufacturer, WBSA, and Dept of Ag. All I can say to those thinking of using it, be careful. Jim, I think you are right about the first hive. My hive was very strong and they were flat out dead in the bottom board, complete. That was no robbing situation, that stuff killed em flat out. As far as pics go thanks Radar, I tried uploading them off my IPhone and it keeps saying "failed". I'll try later tonight off my wifes laptop to do it. My desk top is not working at the moment.


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## CircleBee (Mar 3, 2012)

Not sure this is actually uploading my pictures or not?? I'll try posting it anyways...


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Wow. What a shame. Sorry for your loss.


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## SpringGreen (Jun 26, 2014)

I am so sorry!


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Oh gads. That is horrific! I'm so sorry ...


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## CircleBee (Mar 3, 2012)

estreya said:


> Oh gads. That is horrific! I'm so sorry ...


Thanks for the sympathy everyone, I appreciate it. I've had my share of winter deadouts, so I am no stranger to hive loss. I've just never experienced such a sudden collapse and at this time of year. I might as well have sprayed a can of raid in there, the effect would have been the same. What I am having a hard time with is the fact that my friends hive was a cutout that spent 8 years in the wall of a barn surviving on its own. That queen and her genetics were lost, I'm just so disgusted. 

Glock - would you mind if I PM'd you to pick your brain on OA? I have used the dribble method with good success to "clean my frame top bars". The vaporizing method I'd like to ask you some questions on...

Sent an email just now to the Manufacturer, will let you all know what they say. Since Washington State does not have a apairy inspection program, I'm not sure who in an authority position to contact...I'll do some digging. Going to let Mann Lake know too (that's who I bought it from).

Thanks again all.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Anything more you cold tell us about the pictured single deep? Am I correct in assuming it was one very full box of bees with no supers above?
Temps in the days immediately after treatment?
Entrance sizes?
Sunshine or shade?
Was there a flow on?
Were you feeding at the time?
How long until the kill was complete? 
I agree, this dosent appear to be a case of a robbed out hive, just too many dead bees for that. Very disturbing. I am interested in hearing the response from the manufacturers.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I used the original my first year, didn't like it. It seemed very ineffective, any bees that got coated during application died, and the bees were not happy campers as soon as they smelled the strips. At least my bees anyways, I know others have said the same though.


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## CircleBee (Mar 3, 2012)

Jim thanks, to answer your questions. Yes, it was one single deep that was full ten frames of bees. The bottom board picture is the majority of the hive with maybe 10000 (or three pound package size of bees clustered alive on the outside) and had no supers above just a inner cover with a telescoping outer cover. Bottom board was screened with the slide in. The strips were put in at about noon yesterday and the pics were taken today at about 11 am, so this was less than 24 hrs. I have about 5 other hives within 20 feet of this one that are configured exactly the same (only without the HGII) and none have any issues what so ever. What clued me in to any problem was the fact that there was this bearding cluster on the front of the hive that spent the night out there, ive never seen that with any hive ive ever had here at my place. Temps were maybe mid 80's highs and 60 low over night. Entrance was reduced because we are in a dearth and was about 2 inches in length. Full sun until about 4 PM at which time shade from a grove of large fir trees to the west. I was not feeding at the time the strips were in the hive. I checked the hive about 5 PM today because I was curious about the brood in there and there were bees in there, maybe as many as were bearded earlier. What brood I saw was dead as there were emerging brood partially out of their cappings but clearly not alive. Hope this answers your questions, if you got any other theories I'd love to hear them. It just was such a clear case of the HGII being the culprit from what I saw of the hive before and after.

JG - yeah I tried the original too some years back. The issue I had, and what I thought they had fixed was the fact that if those strips sat for any length of time, it was almost like they dried out. The liquid would separate out leaving a dry like strip that seemed ineffective. What these new strips have are corrigations (like corrugated card board) that hold the liquid within. Maybe a little too good at doing so, per my hive.

Clearly this product has some issues...

Question - what would you suggest I do with this hive? There are some adult bees alive, but the queen is amongst the casualties... Combine them? Would you reuse the frames? I don't want to kill my other hives doing that...just not sure.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

That's a horrible loss. Don't beat yourself up. You did what the manufacturer suggested. Something went astray at the plant perhaps?
Gotta love those chemical treatments.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

CircleBee said:


> Question - what would you suggest I do with this hive? There are some adult bees alive, but the queen is amongst the casualties... Combine them? Would you reuse the frames? I don't want to kill my other hives doing that...just not sure.


The damage is done. Probably just shake the bees out in front of another hive and scatter the brood into some other hives. There may still be some live brood yet and it at least needs cleaned out.
My guess is that they essentially smothered. Enough bees may have been hugging the limited entrance to have shut off all fresh air circulation, though I have never seen anything quite like that happen. I have used both Hopguard and thymol and bearding is pretty normal the first couple of days but I have never seen a resulting bee kill. 
Keep us posted.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Am I correct in thinking HGII is a "contact" miticide? If so, it seems that it might be prudent to prop the top cover up a bit so the bees will have an entrance that can't be blocked with dead bees. If it's the vapor that works....well, it might still be a good idea...? Just some newbie musings...

CB, I hate this happened to your bees. Seems like HGII has some rough corners to polish up...and something tells me Jim Lyon idea is probably pretty close to what happened. It may be a great product but from these bee kills it is apparent that a revision in the manufacturer's application instructions is definitely needed.

Best wishes,
Ed


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## CircleBee (Mar 3, 2012)

Ok, the Manufacturer just called me and we had a nice conversation, but I don't entirely agree with her. Here are the highlights of what she said (and forgive me if my recall isn't so good).

1) She believes it was an overheating issue and not a problem with the HGII. Her reasoning is that it is a contact miticide and as a result it would not be likely to kill an entire hive in the fashion mine were.

2) In the development stages, she said that she personally treated over 250 hives of a commercial beekeeper and never saw any hive kills. And that many of the larger commercial guys, even one near me use it and are pleased with it. She mentioned that with HGII that there was good mite knock down with one two week application and subsequent good overwintering success.

3) With HG/HGII there is always some incidental bee/brood killed around the strips. The strips being saturated with the product, those bees that contact it when it is very wet will be overcome. Queens can also have the same happen to them if you are unlucky enough to apply the strip where she is located. This makes sense and is what I saw surrounding the strips themselves.

So in the end this what I believe happened (and BTW, I told her this)...I believe it was overheating that did these hives in. But I also believe it was the presence of HGII in those hives that caused the overheating situation to develop. HG/HGII is not as "bee friendly" as it is advertised to be. Obviously, my bees did not like it in the hive, and its presence alone caused them to exit the hive or in some way become unable to perform hive cooling duties.

So to those who are thinking of using it, what I would suggest would be to open the entrance full on, open the SBB, or as previously suggested, in some way crack the hive open a little (taking care not to incite a robbing situation) for extra ventilation. I however, with my losses will never use the stuff again and will be tossing what I have left.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I think you're pretty much on the right track. As Jim Lyon mentioned, the over-heating probably did them in. Bees died from the initial fresh dose of HGII and appears to have blocked the entrance...then it was a ticking clock till the rest of the ones trapped were dead. 

Ed

ETA: This is making me revisit the idea of top entrances...in this day and time a slight pesticide kill could happen to any of us and could block the lower entrance with dead bees.


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

Ive used Hopguard and still do. 

But I have not tried HG2 yet. When I get it, I'll use with caution. Sorry for the loss


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I am curious....is there a recommended temperature range for application?


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## CircleBee (Mar 3, 2012)

beemandan said:


> I am curious....is there a recommended temperature range for application?


I did not ask her that question, but should have. Don't recall reading any temperature range restrictions on the original package instructions.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is a copy of the Hopguard II label instructions:
http://www.michiganbees.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/20140519_HopGuardII-label.pdf

I didn't find anything there regarding temperature.


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## linn (Nov 19, 2010)

Hi CircleBee,
I used hopguard I last year with pretty good results. This summer, I purchased hopguard II from Mann Lake for some of the smaller hives. I will wait and hear what you have to say about the lot number.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I put Hopguard 2 in several hives over a week ago. They are all strong 3 story hives with 12" wide x 1/2" high lower entrances. So far no ill effects and surprisingly no excessive bearding when compared to neighboring untreated hives. Highs were in the upper 80's. My first impressions is that they don't seem as messy or nasty smelling as the original Hopguard.


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

I treated 53 nucs with Hopguard II at the begining of August. I didn't have a single queen or hive issue. The definitly were not as messy as the original I think do to the "corragated" aspect of the new strips. The mylar backing kept the bees from discarding them so fast. They smelled the same to me.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Checked some hives today that had Hopguard 2 put in about 2 1/2 weeks ago. Really pleased with the results. Bees showed no adverse effects, queens are still laying and an approximate 400 bee ether roll gathered from 3 treated hives showed 3 mites. 
http://s470.photobucket.com/user/jimlyon/media/Mobile Uploads/1409881046_zps88ea3cc6.jpg.html


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> Checked some hives today that had Hopguard 2 put in about 2 1/2 weeks ago. Really pleased with the results. Bees showed no adverse effects, queens are still laying and an approximate 400 bee ether roll gathered from 3 treated hives showed 3 mites.
> http://s470.photobucket.com/user/jimlyon/media/Mobile Uploads/1409881046_zps88ea3cc6.jpg.html


Jim, are you aware if ML has a quantity discount for HG2? I'd like to try some next year although it is a bit pricey. Thanks for the update. 

Aaron


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The 100+ package pricing (shipping included) I got was $34.80 per package of 24 strips. We are using the recommended 2 strips under the excluder in our excluded singles. 2 strips per each 10 frames of bees is recommended meaning a populous double would require 4 strips.


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## rfgreenwell (Feb 14, 2010)

I realize this thread is a couple months old now, but I just read it all the way through. I am in southern Maryland and run on average about 100 hives, most all as 8-frame double deeps and some triples. I treated about 50 with Apivar which I had used with excellent results last year on all hives, and I treated the other 44 hives with Hopguard-2. Of those Hopguard-2 treatments, I had 4 hives killed by the application much the same as the original poster reported. One triple among 14 hives in the first yard, one double among 9 hives in another yard, and one double and one triple among 21 hives in the third yard. All of the hives in those 3 yards were applied exactly the same way, with dosages of 4 strips staggered and separated, two in the lower and two in the upper in the triples and 2 strips in the lowers of the doubles. All entrances were wide open (12" X 3/4") except the double in the second yard had a reduced entrance (4" X 1/2"). All had upper entrances, and all were open and not clogged with bees up top. In all cases, the hives were strong with 10-14 brood frames, and packed with bees, and although I was moving queens out of the way before inserting strips if I could quickly spot them, I can't say that these 4 hives had their queens moved or not. No matter, every bee in every one of the four died within 24 hours. There were large piles of dead bees outside in front of each of them, as well as the entire cluster dead inside piled up on the bottom board and right on up through the frames in the bottom boxes. Very few bees in the upper boxes and upper entrances were open. All the other hives in all three yards were treated exactly the same without any other casualties. There was no apparent robbing going on through the open top entrances by the remaining hives after the fact and no sign of robbing within the hives as a causative. The affected four hives were of 3 different races, Cordovan Italian, Carniolan X VSH, and VSH X local drones. The treatment of all three yards was accomplished in one day, but at different times as it took me all day to do it. The yards have varying amounts of sun/shade with one having morning shade, one having afternoon shade, and one in full sun. All are on freeman beetle bottom boards, inner covers and tele-tops with upper entrances. 3 were overwintered colonies/queens and one was a spring package start on drawn combs. All hives are on straight row stands, and all of the affected hives had closely adjacent hives that were unaffected. I am convinced the mortality was caused by the application of the Hopguard, but it was all from the same lot though different packages of strips. I followed directions, placing all strips into a plastic container and squeezed excess chemical from the foil package, and made sure each corrugated strip was well coated in the chemical as it was applied to the frame. I did not notice any difference in my application between one hive to the next. I experienced no other hive or queen mortality among the other HG-2 treated hives, and zero losses with the 50 Apivar (amitraz) treated hives. I did not notify the manufacturer as I really did not think that I would be compensated and was not in a mood to argue with a customer service rep over the issue. That was wrong of me and I regret not having reported it and possibly helping to save someone else a similar grief. I was angry at the loss and just decided I would not venture to try their product again. Chagrinned perhaps because the original HG had bad reviews as being messy and ineffective, while the Mann Lake advertising tooted the new and improved HG-2 to have corrected all the issues and made me feel like we had a new silver bullet in an organic treatment. No disrespect to M/L intended. I will stick with Apivar and OAV and hygenic bees I think. I think that a 10% "whole hive" mortality rate is too high, and I am glad some of the other users had better luck with it in their cases.


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## mbevanz (Jul 23, 2012)

I did not have good results with HG. Used it 3 times as recommended on a strong colony that produced over 100 pounds of honey with low mite levels (3 to 5 on a 24 hour drop, 1 or 0 in a powder sugar shake)until Early August when the mite level exploded. I saw excellent mite drops and thought the product was going to be a helpful tool in the box. Two weeks after the 3rd treatment the 24 hour drops were above 50 without treatment and I quit counting the number in a sugar roll because the numbers were off the charts. Maybe the mite infestation rate at the time of application is to blame?

Apivar treatments on my other hives in early August seems to have knocked the mites back to manageable levels.


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## linn (Nov 19, 2010)

I had good results with Hopguard 2. I needed to do a second application for mite treatment. The first treatment was with Mite-away quick strip. A month later I used Hopguard 2. I only did this follow-up application with three hives (10 frame double deeps with solid bottom board and 7/8th vent hole in 2nd deep). I had the entrance on medium.


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## CircleBee (Mar 3, 2012)

Thanks rfgreenwell for posting and I'm sorry you lost your hives the way I did. I feel your pain and I'm sorry I couldnt have done more to prevent your loss. I find your reply very interesting though as it sounds as though heat/direct sun may not have been as much a factor in your situation. Kind of throws a wrench into the manufacturers theory in my case. I really don't know what to think about why in some cases hives do fine and in others they completely collapse dead with the stuff?? What I do know though is that it IS the HG2 doing it, I don't care what the manufacturer or anyone else thinks.

I have to be honest and admit I am not at all surprised to hear your story. After my talk with the manufacturer, I was fed up as I realized that my loss was basically being ignored, and I thought to myself, "this will catch up to them because I know with 100% certainty that what happened to me will happen to others". Unfortunately, its going to take bees/hives dying to get that across to them. Anyway, I would strongly suggest to you that you contact the manufacturer and let them know, its the only way that the problem with their product will come to light. And I'll tell you this to give credit to them, in my case I spoke to one of the researchers that developed the product, not some customer service person. Also, I too got my HG2 from Mann Lake, and while I love ML and will continue to buy from them, they made absolutely no attempt to even acknowledge my email to them regarding the issue. And like you, I too was woo'd by ML's description of HG2 as this wonderful bee friendly, soft treatment. All very disappointing.

If you do end up contacting the manufacturer, I'd love to hear what they have to say to you, if you are willing to share. Thanks again and best of luck to you and your bees!


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## pmshoney (Dec 30, 2014)

Hopguard I- Use it all the time works great never found any dead bees I even seen the queen walk across it and put a strip in once accidently painting the queen with the sticky stuff she lived just fine it is my understanding Hopgard II - is just stronger? Hopgard I killed mites just fine way more affective than any other product I have used plus it didn't kill bees or queens like others did. we were crushed when we found out they changed the product it was our only treatment that never gave us a the its too hot or too cold for its use. I wish I could say that about any other product I have used but I can't the rest on the market are like a roller-coaster ride you never know how they will work if your going to end up with 60 queenless hives from treating for mites or what.
One thing is if you had deformed wings from mites that is they were bad and may of been on the fast reverse slide. and maybe the deformed wings were not even mite related? did you get the bees tested to find out what killed them? 
I want to hear what you found out here ?


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## pmshoney (Dec 30, 2014)

Hopguard I- Use it all the time works great never found any dead bees I even seen the queen walk across it and put a strip in once accidently painting the queen with the sticky stuff she lived just fine it is my understanding Hopgard II - is just stronger? Hopgard I killed mites just fine way more affective than any other product I have used plus it didn't kill bees or queens like others did. we were crushed when we found out they changed the product it was our only treatment that never gave us a the its too hot or too cold for its use. I wish I could say that about any other product I have used but I can't the rest on the market are like a roller-coaster ride you never know how they will work if your going to end up with 60 queenless hives from treating for mites or what.
One thing is if you had deformed wings from mites that is they were bad and may of been on the fast reverse slide. and maybe the deformed wings were not even mite related? did you get the bees tested to find out what killed them? 
I want to hear what you found out here ?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

It dosent appear to me that there is a difference in the formulation of the coating just the strip itself. The Hopguard 2 strips are a heavier corrugated strip adhered to a plastic strip. Most hives will only chew on them for a couple of weeks before losing interest, though some will clean off everything down to the plastic. 
http://s470.photobucket.com/user/ji...Hopguard 2014/1409881046_zps88ea3cc6.jpg.html


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

from a thread last month on bee-, I was kind of hoping they had said if I to II changed the formula, I was pretty sure I had read some where that the amount of active
ingredient was increased.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...17D0994B14&[email protected]&P=64789


Hi Bee L: 

Our study used HopGuard I. Based on this study I worked with Beta Tech Hop Products company to develop HopGuard II. We tested HopGuard II in fall 2013. We go good results control was 90-95%. However we repeated the study in late spring /summer of 2014. We found efficacy was within 70-80%. We are still working with company for additional improvements of the product. We plan to further testing the HopGuard II in spring and summer 2015. 


Medhat 
Dr. Medhat Nasr 
Alberta Provincial Apiculturist 
Pest Surveillance Branch

found it.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...17D0994B14&[email protected]&P=65835


Hi again, we tested the HopGuard II after changing the strip type and dose. It worked well in late fall. This info is being prepared for publication. However when the product tested in spring and summer, the dose was quiet hi as the bees were active. We are in process of readjusting the dose. The product has potential to be used safely and effectively but we needed to work out some bugs. 

Regards 

Medhat


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Interesting, I stand corrected. By dosage I assume they are referring to the concentration of active ingredients. I'm surprised they didn't work out the dosage issue before it was given approval.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

jim lyon said:


> By dosage I assume they are referring to the concentration of active ingredients. I'm surprised they didn't work out the dosage issue before it was given approval.


I think one of the things that they were looking to fix is the amount of goo, so you don't have to shake the bees off the frame before putting the strips in.
It would also be nice to know when exactly they trialed, if I had to guess the reason the fall treatment was more effective was there was less capped brood, this would go along with you and Randy Oliver saying it knocked the mites back but not effective enough to get under the threshold. just my guess.


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