# Package Bees from Georiga and Texas, have you had lots of problems.



## Honey Hive Farms (Nov 1, 2012)

Not saying that any of this info is true, nor do I know what companies is having the problems.
Our farm is getting at least one call every other day that they have had Queens die off very early and really weak bees.
I know there is a large array of different levels of beekeepers and beekeeping and I know this could play a role in their complaints.
Looking for feed back on bees from those two states.

Please don't list any names of the companies.

NOTE: We can all have problems, hoping not to, but this is the second year of these complaints.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Last year was a really tough year for queens... 2 different cold snaps really put the hurts on them. not typical but if it was you first experience you would get a bad taste....

Did you read this months ABJ?? there is a very interesting article blameing poor queens on sterile drones.......


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

I'd be interested to know, of the complaints you received, how many of those were new beekeepers? I've heard of one package producer in GA that has a history of bad package production. I found them searching to packages myself. Their prices seemed too good to be true, so I did some digging, and found some not so good reviews. I never put out a feeler like this, I simply typed their name into beesource and got what I needed. 

It's one thing to have poor reviews on a company or product. Think about it, most times people that are happy don't say much. Those that are upset want to be heard. That being said, don't write off a company with poor reviews per se. But investigate those same companies to try and find GOOD reviews. One in particular stands out, and despite your request for no names, I'll share the name, because it's a good review: BeeWeaver Apiaries in Texas. 

This is where I got my first package, and where the company that I teach beekeeping classes for gets their bees. I have no affiliation with BeeWeaver, but because of my own good experience, I highly recommend them. If you search on here, you'll find countless good reviews on them. You may also find complaints, but I believe if people are taking the time to leave good reviews, that means the product is more towards the excellent rating. 

I did notice you are in MO. I actually grew up in Bowling Green, just an hour or so north. But my home now, and my apiary is in Houston, Texas. Something to consider, that I highly believe in, is the need to buy local, and that includes bees! Texas and Georgian bees may not do all that well in MO. Same goes for hauling MN bees to Texas. Although very adaptable, that transfer and somewhat culture shock, I believe could be detrimental to a colony. If you are going to buy "foreign" packages, I would recommend buying a local queen if possible. 

I encourage a survey of the complaints you get to see how many of those are first time beekeepers. As us veterans know, starting with a package is actually prett risky, and a simple mistake by a new beekeeper could mean disaster.


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## Honey Hive Farms (Nov 1, 2012)

I agree, lots of new beekeepers that do not want to break open a book or take a beginners beekeeping class.
We tried to take this in consideration when we were posting this. As some of you we thought the same thing, new beekeepers, etc. Again we wont mention any names but one that was mentioned in the post out of Texas was one of the most upset beekeepers. There could be more new beekeepers or the area they are going to could have a lot to do with it. I know some that lost 8 packages our of 10 and we work with 17 states and speak to several thousand people that being said I cant believe all would be new beekeepers.
I also agree, people will march right to a computer or phone and leave bad reviews but when there is something good to say, good luck getting a good review. (been down this road)
Again jus asking as we found it odd for so many complaints, any info would be great.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Here goes Phil with one of his conspiracy theories again. Wouldn't be a coincidence that the thread originator is in the business of hauling packages he purchases in California and then resells them? 

Anyone in this gig long enough knows the good... bad... and ugly floats around the country depending on weather conditions. Some year its to wet. others to dry... to make perfect queens. 

If HHF was to ask Kameron ( his supplier) if they ever had a "bad" year in the distant past the relayed message would be a resounding YES. A better question to ask is .........On a decade long study have the bees out of one area been better ( or worse) than other areas? When we talk Texas, Deep south east, and California I think the answer is NO!!!!

HHF also deals a lot with "newbees" who are known to be more adept to "kill them off" from "lack of care." 

A lot of these people blame the package producer when the real problem is their lack of skill.

Thats why is called KEEPING. They don't care for themselves as winnie the pooh has put in their heads.


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## jrhoto (Mar 2, 2009)

All package bee producers and sellers have problems from time to time,its how they handle these problems that seperate them.



www.poorvalleybeefarm.com


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## Honey Hive Farms (Nov 1, 2012)

True we all have problems, again just asking. We have our problems too. We have such a large amount of phone calls about the lower states so wanted to know if anyone else was having problems.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Honey Hive Farms said:


> True we all have problems, again just asking. We have our problems too. We have such a large amount of phone calls about the lower states so wanted to know if anyone else was having problems.


Well could it be because the "lower states" are teh only ones producing packages??? I admit freely I am deeply involved with most of the package guys. I visit them on a regular basis. in fact headed out to be with several in GA next week.

There are some things you need to know when considering "issues" first of.. weather in the areas matters a lot. last year GA got crap... several late freezes... made queens tough to produce at all. 2 guys I know were 6 weeks late on everything. Others managed, but as expected queens were more trouble than usual. 2 years ago west side had issues...

second, east coast deals almost exclusively with small guys and retailers. West coast is exactly opposite. Very few west coast packages make it to hobbyist....

East cost ships bees over a 2+ month period. West cost are almost all handled in less than 30 days....East is raised for sale, West is surplus from almonds. 
Very small numbers coming out of TX, and MS, and Florida


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## Honey Hive Farms (Nov 1, 2012)

Thank you gmcharlie, now that is helpful, not negative just good information that a lot of us may not have not heard.
Is there a problem this year? Had a call and they ordered around 600 packages from us as Georgia said they couldn't provide him with the bees.
This was already this year, last week.
AGAIN just asking, don't care to drag anyone dawn, not posting names. This part of my responsibility as a business man, beekeeper and package handler. I don't want to miss any information that may pertain to us all.

PS> I am trying to help some this year down in Florida area, hope to learn something more.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Honey Hive Farms said:


> AGAIN just asking, don't care to drag anyone dawn, not posting names.


Why bother with names when you can drag down a whole area.Nothing quite like generalities.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

gmcharlie said:


> There are some things you need to know when considering "issues" first of.. weather in the areas matters a lot.


Weather is usually the biggest issue. Hands down.

As per the statement that West bees are "Surplus" out of Almonds I would have to give you a head scratch. There are those who toss on the sub by the semi load to build bees for packages. The sub is not just to put smiles the Almond growers faces. 

True there is no almond pollination in Georgia at the same time of year but I bet that if there was you would not dare call the bees shook afterwards "excesses."


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Honey Hive Farms said:


> Had a call and they ordered around 600 packages from us as Georgia said they couldn't provide him with the bees.


Not bad mouthing your northern California supplier as they are among the finest people in the world...... But the fact is.... :no: happens. Maybe you can call Kameron to ask and then let the folks here know how many package orders they cancelled a few years back when they had the big crash. My guess is it was in the mid thousands. Why did their bees crash? 

There is not a soul around here who bad mouths them cause it happened. They lost the roll of the dice that year. Does not reflect on them at all.

A few years back when norcal had rain during mating time the same complaints were said about "my" area.

If your going to be negative lets be truthful and put the blame where it lies. Bees and queens don't last like they used to. I don't care if they are produced in Greenland or tierra del fuego or in the show me state. They are all a poor reflection of the way things were in the past........


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Who are the complaints coming from mostly? Hobbyist or fulltime beeks? Hobbyist are the worst complainers at times...


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## Honey Hive Farms (Nov 1, 2012)

I agree we all have problems. I know we had problems with queens as the wind blew them away when out getting mated, not a great year.
Not sure why some people think we cant talk about something without getting all upset. I stated I NEVER HAVE had bees from those areas I JUST GET CALLS from people that have. Was looking for an answer (gone2seed) sorry we can have a question without such judgment, I HAVE PEOPLE ASKING ME WHY so I came to some of you hoping you would have the answers but all you want to do is fight, grow up. Forget I asked, if you cant bring something to the table then don't respond.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Honey Hive Farms said:


> Was looking for an answer (gone2seed) sorry we can have a question without such judgment, I HAVE PEOPLE ASKING ME WHY so I came to some of you hoping you would have the answers but all you want to do is fight, grow up. Forget I asked, if you cant bring something to the table then don't respond.


Sorry,but I don't see it that way.An outfit selling California packages knocking southern US bees makes me say hmmmmm.


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## Honey Hive Farms (Nov 1, 2012)

gone2seed whatever you think, don't have time for you and you waste of time comments, Hope you find happiness somewhere, deal with guys like you all the time.
Have a great Thanksgiving.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Honey-4-All said:


> As per the statement that West bees are "Surplus" out of Almonds I would have to give you a head scratch. There are those who toss on the sub by the semi load to build bees for packages. The sub is not just to put smiles the Almond growers faces.
> 
> True there is no almond pollination in Georgia at the same time of year but I bet that if there was you would not dare call the bees shook afterwards "excesses."


Ttrue, there are some for which the packages are now a staple, but it didn't start that may, and the majority choose to shake because they have to shake or split... or watch a lot of money fly away. the build hives to get better scores on almonds. and strong hives for honey as they move north. The guys in the south do NONE of that... their hives are but for one purpose. 2 of the big 4 don't even like to process honey!


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## Honey Hive Farms (Nov 1, 2012)

Thanks gmcharlie. Has anyone heard that if there are some other places having problems shaking out this year or not going to carry packages at all.?
I know of one over by Kansas, that the truck driver last year turned on the heat and killed 900 packages, I am pretty sure they are not doing it any more and I cant say I blame them.
Sad story.
Thanks for the post


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

You sure can tell by this thread that it's the "off season" for us beekeepers. 

From my experience and mine alone, I had two packages from the same Georgia supplier. One did amazingly well and kept the original queen all season. The second package lost it's queen within a month and it had to requeen itself.
Both are doing well at this point and had good brood patterns.

I am rearing my own queens though this spring from stock "survivor" "overwintered" bees that are amazing both in honey production and brood production. This season is going to be phenominal from what I can tell.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I hate to enter this debate because I know I'll be attacked. I have no skin in this game, but, the package bees sent to the Northeast suck. I'm not a package bee beekeeper, but many, many beekeepers come to me with their tales of woe about the rubbish bees they get from the Southeast. 

But it's not just talk. It's not just beginner beekeepers who don't know how to keep bees. If you want surveys, look at the survey from Maine by Mainebeekeeper on this list. 60% dead before winter. Look at the survey by Jim Haskell in Virginia. 80% failed to make it for one year. These are good beekeepers with years of experience. Ask Winevines on this list what happens with package bees from Georgia.

Ask my honey customer from Massachusetts who has kept bees longer than you have. 12 of 25 packages had drone layers on installation...and no refund from the MA reseller...RR. 

The package bee industry in GA has real issues, and it's not just poor mating weather in the spring. 

Let the fur fly boys!


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Well Michael, your certainly entitled to your comments, so no need to pull fur out over it...... I did look closer at the study info where the lost 60% And the glaring issue the shows up is the timing of the requeen. When you install a package and then requeen it 2 months later with "local queens" you unwittingly gave them a huge advantage. you have in effect done a brood break for mites. That alone will explain a huge difference in survival. I am not sure if the guys putting out this info do it on purpose, or just don't think it thru. I tend to believe for the most part its intentional misleading. Seems to be some money involved. 

I do know when you hang around with guys who think alike your going to hear the same stories...its group mentality. I assume Michael that your customers are going to tell you that stuff. Just as many of mine love their packages....... The question is can you look past it and get to the bottom of it? 

Reality is that a packages is a queen and some support staff. in 2 months. all that support is gone. so how well the queen is mated and produces is really the key.
I do wonder at times how we get good queens at all from some areas. the sheer number of queens to be breed makes me wonder where the heck all the drones can come from! but it does seem to happen.

Like I said before, despite all the rhetoric, there doesn't seem to be a magic bullet. look at your operation and decide what fits.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I would like to add a point here, something I hope makes it thru. sometimes putting things to words is not my strong suit. I am an engineer, with a lot of experince, who has for the last 10 year has been hired to solve problems. To do that takes a a few pieces principle to be able to follow. Much like a real Scientist. (not claiming to be one) Most people see what they want, form a Hypothesis, and then collect data or opinions that support that. Take "the world is flat" how long did that go on??
I see the same here, anecdotal discussions, comments and a chorus of support. Very little backed by facts or reasons. That is a problem to me. When a Hive fails, be it package, nuc, or swarm. the question is why? what happened? do I really know? what was different about that one?? I formulate a theory, and then try to test it. not just on one but many. Take screen bottom boards. most here will swear they solved mite problems. I found in my yards hive with them either move up or fail to thrive. I can't make honey at all on a single with a screen Bottom. doubles will do about the same as a solid single.

So I take this approach to this conversation. How much of "packages suck" is fact and how much is ignorance?? Packages have limitations, so do nucs and swarms. the real key to me is understanding those REAL truths and deciding what fits your operations. Michael has found nucs to be a asset. Honey housholder works straight off packages, both are pretty happy with there operations and success.
So far for me, well it doesn't matter...... Just try not to let offhand diatribe cloud opinions and misguide reality.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I liked that gm.

When something goes wrong in my outfit I blame the beekeeper first and try to figure out what I could have done wrong. Not finding any fault of mine, which isn't the norm, I blame the weather. But, if I find other beekeepers w/ the same problem, maybe it's the supplier or the quality of queens these days.

Once through w/ that exercise I try to figure out what to do differently next season.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Honey-4-All said:


> If your going to be negative lets be truthful and put the blame where it lies. Bees and queens don't last like they used to. I don't care if they are produced in Greenland or tierra del fuego or in the show me state. They are all a poor reflection of the way things were in the past........


How were things in the past?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Before we became migratory we used to rely on lots of southern packages and queens (mostly from Weavers BTW). I remember my dad complaining 30 years ago that queens just don't have the vitality that they used to (he started in the late 30's). Queen raisers have always struggled with the vagaries of weather but frankly the mass production techniques that have pretty much always been used aren't a very good way to get consistently high quality queens. How long were they allowed to lay? 2 days? 3 days? 7 days? It can make a big difference and when shipping schedules are tight.....well you get the picture. How big a drone population for how many virgins? Again, it can make a pretty big difference, maybe those drone hives just didn't come through the winter very well.. I don't say this in any way to knock the large queen producers just to point out some of the difficulties they face. The ones I personally know are quite dedicated to producing a quality product but when the phone is constantly ringing with anxious customers it's not an ideal situation.
With all that said, though, I think too often queen producers become the scapegoats for lots and lots of other problems from pesticides to varroa to a lack of forage. It's just a whole lot easier to blame someone rather than something.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>12 of 25 packages had drone layers on installation.
Or became drone layers over the summer. 
This was my experience with California packages this year. My little experience with about four years of package purchases over the decades is that they don't compare to any locally caught bees.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

odfrank said:


> >12 of 25 packages had drone layers on installation.
> Or became drone layers over the summer.
> This was my experience with California packages this year. My little experience with about four years of package purchases over the decades is that they don't compare to any locally caught bees.


With the drought this has been a bugger of an year for sure. Sure it affected bee health. From your tag line you say your at 50%. Looks like the same ratio with your swarms as with the packages unless my math is a twisted a my beekeeping back is? Willing to clarify?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> How were things in the past?


Don't even get me started. Like comparing Night and day or Heaven vs hell! I will see if I can copy some of my old posts that address this and then pm you at a later time.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Honey Hive Farms said:


> Our farm is getting at least one call every other day that they have had Queens die off very early and really weak bees.


HHF Regarding queen loss and "bad" packages from the South east!

How about a little info on your customers results??? 

1. Have you polled your own customers from last year?
2. How many customers and how many packages are in the cross section? 
3. What did the data reveal if you have done so?
4. If you are using more than one supplier for your packages is there a disparity in their comparable data?
5. Have you classified the losses in groups based on "hobbiest vs sideliners vs commercial'? 
6. What percentage of packages you resold are in the sample?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Honey-4-All;1024428line you say your at 50%. Looks like the same ratio with your swarms as with the packages unless my math is a twisted a my beekeeping back is? Willing to clarify?[/QUOTE said:


> That is hard data to compile. The local bee clubs import about 500 Olivarez packages to my swarm trapping zone which is 94010 in the north to to 95123 in the south, Burlingame south to San Jose. So many of the swarms I catch might only be localized for a few months or a year or more. But swarms and cutouts seem to survive two or three years without treatments, versus this years packages from two different suppliers of which about half did not even take. I made crops, even substantial crops, on many of the early bait swarms I caught, but almost none on the packages I bought. And the dates of introduction were similar. Both Newbees and experienced beeks expressed disappointing in this years packages.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> How were things in the past?


Before mites I put suppers on any box of bees and made a huge crop. After mites came I spend my time making new colonies.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> But it's not just talk. It's not just beginner beekeepers who don't know how to keep bees. If you want surveys, look at the survey from Maine by Mainebeekeeper on this list. 60% dead before winter. Look at the survey by Jim Haskell in Virginia. 80% failed to make it for one year. These are good beekeepers with years of experience. Ask Winevines on this list what happens with package bees from Georgia.
> 
> The package bee industry in GA has real issues, and it's not just poor mating weather in the spring.
> 
> Let the fur fly boys!


Your 'statistics' compare to WHAT from other regions of the country? I had great 100% success with Georgia-supplied bees.


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## Great Bees (Aug 19, 2013)

I bought some form down south and they didnt do that great, but that was about three years ago, now buy them out of Missouri and they have been good so far.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I got 36 packages last spring out of GA and they were exceptional.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Great Bees said:


> I bought some form down south and they didnt do that great, but that was about three years ago, now buy them out of Missouri and they have been good so far.


Where the ones from "now" Show me bees or California Bees delivered to Missouri?

Cordovans or Carniolans?


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

We say poor packages it really boils down to poor queens. I have always gotten packages in a fair time frame from GA companies. They have always (save 1 package out of hundreds) come with plenty of healthy bees.

It is the queens that need work. I had to stop. It was costing me way to much to buy every year. Drone layers, poor acceptance, quick to supersede ( 3 months or less) and a lack of consistent vigor. Shoot many looked like unfertile virgins even.

I think the commercial industry needs to take a step back and focus on better quality queens and better fertile drones. I would rather wait another month for a queen that is hot than one April 1st that is not suited to head a colony. Sorry it has been a rough couple of years for them but business is rough on everyone in the bee industry. I don't buy and don't ever recommend a packaged bee to anyone unless nothing else is available.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

hobbyist here well to join this discussion I have been keeping bee for 5 winters now, I always buy packages.I seldom do splits off my own hives I pick one hive and do one split a year.For one i don't want inbreeding going on since i only have 11 hives current breed Carnolians, Carnolian x Russian,new world Carnolians but i figure there Carnolians too.all of them i bought from different suppliers ya some don't make it Thru the winter.It's not the fault of the suppliers some bees just don't make it or some slow to start,but i have had a slow starter never build up to a double deep wintered in a single deep made it just fine.no extra feed but went to let them re-queen. pinched her in may either by chance or bird they failed.it's probably very tough out there different conditions apply.still learning tho had no mentor learning as i go lots and lots of reading still doesn't make up for a experienced beekeepers help.now as far as cut outs done my share all currently living,caught swarms from my hives as well.11 hives in five years doesn't seem like much but all survivors no treatments,no supplement feeding,winter over in double deeps,no plastic foundations only in the suppers,no queen Excluder. I have no complaints here yet had one supplier that went out of business so no packages last year.sold some hives as well mostly the swarms or the split don't know if that's right to sell my daughter hives but I think the rest that i keep will be healthier in the long run.again ordered more packages this year 6 all together most i ever ordered, but also this year i have to re-queen my older hives.Some this is there 3rd winter so a new adventure begins bought a jenter queen rearing system now I have to choose what queen or Queens I want to use.


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