# Who to Trust?



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I imagine this one is a rather religious debate, but I am going to try it anyway:

I was watching some videos posted by NY Bee Wellness, specifically one which was a presentation by Dr. Lawrence John Connor. While the majority of what he had to say was somewhat well agreed-upon, towards the end during Q&A is where either strange beliefs, or perhaps stubbornness took over for Dr. Connor. 

Specifically, someone asked about Varroa management, and he simply stated "I'm not going to talk about that."

I've started all of two threads here plus my introduction thread, so I have not exactly been around the block many times. I also don't keep bees yet. That said, my desire to be able to keep bees without needing to treat (which is different than not treating bees) was met with some ... friction here? The friction was certainly well-intended and I did not take it in any but the most positive manner. But that said, it "seems like" that there are Varroa mites and they can be a problem seems pretty well accepted, even by those who say they don't have a problem with them. I think the staunchest "no treatment" keepers will agree that there are people for whom mites are a problem.

So, why then does Dr. Conner not want to talk about it? Is it because it is such a polarizing subject? Is it because it was towards the end of the presentation and he felt there wasn't enough time? When I search Dr. Google for "lawrence john connor varroa management" I am not met with a lot of information. Certainly, nothing one would expect to see with all of the books he's written. One book in which he implies "the option of wintering nucleus colonies" will help control mites and another where selective breeding is the answer.

To be clear I think both of these can be tools, but why is that all I see?

The question I am left with after blathering on about all that is relatively simple: Can I trust what he's got to say, or do I send my money elsewhere for someone else's books? Maybe I'm misjudging him, in which case I expect Cunningham's Law will right things immediately.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Dr. Connor is a fairly well-respected researcher. He and Dewey Caron have co-authored a book that is taught to entomology students in college courses. He is no lightweight. He can also be quite gruff. I have met him a few times. He is nice enough, but is rather direct.

Dr. Connor is not only an author but a book publisher and owner of WicWas Press. He is in the business of selling books now. However, that should not be taken to diminish his career and research. I respect him and trust what he says. That does not always mean he is correct or is above throwing out anecdotal observations he thinks he has seen that have not been proven through rigorous scientific study.

If you want to have a good conversation about treatment-free beekeeping, there is a sub-forum for those conversations. The rest of the members are not supposed to attack folks there. I make no promises.

Based on your signature, I thank you for your service.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

trust every one but verify. 
you will soon find out talk to 10 keepers and 10 different ways to do something, combine a couple and now you are at 11.

season and location can mean a lot, one would not "wrap/insulate" hives in Texas, but in North Dakoda maybe a must. feeding for me is an almost never, as there are not many dearth's here some places don't feed,, bees die. Add in the race variations and no two places will be the same.
Wait till you have bees in 2 places, the honey tastes different ,they winter different ETC, in a 25 mile difference.

each speaks from their frame of reference, in their locale and with the race of bee they have they are likely correct.
so in my mind every one speaks truth, but will it work for me, here, with my bees. those ideas that I feel have merit I try.
if it fails it does not make them a liar it makes the tactic here not work due to my locale.

try not to be a purest, keep bees any old way till you find your path then follow it.
IMO poring over "maps" with out bees is at some point sifting the white stuff out of chicken ****t.
one can always add in FL frames or decide not to treat once you have the ability to over winter and split back to your starting point. If they are all dead in the spring did what frame you used matter?

In the late 70's when I started, I had 1 book and 1 keeper to ask things of for 10 years Plus.
It can be done, *the bees will teach you the best*, today with all the stuff out there one can get into analyses paralyses quite easily.

order the bees and the wooden ware and just jump in........
you will either hate it or wish you started 5 years ago.

GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

psm1212 said:


> He is nice enough, but is rather direct.


I concur with psm1212 on this assessment. Dr. Conner has had a long and illustrious career in beekeeping and is a wealth of great information. I have also found that he is very helpful and willing to share his advice so long as you don't mind him shooting straight with you- truth with no candy coating.

FWIW in most presentations I have watched he gives his e-mail address and I expect (but can't guarantee) that if you e-mailed him your question in a thoughtful and respectful manner he might just e-mail you back and let you know his thoughts on the subject.

I too appreciate your service on behalf of our country. The Heroes to Hives program looks like a great program.

Russ


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## Nicksotherhoney (Jun 10, 2017)

I remember watching that seminar live via the internet and what I took away from it was he didn’t want to dive into the whole mess that varroa is..seems like he wanted to keep things k.i.s.s. I could be wrong but that’s what I got from it. I’ve bought books from wicwas press and can’t complain about them or Larry Conor.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I left beekeeping for a while just before the varroa mite came on shore and changed everything. When I re entered beekeeping my apiaries smelled like a french bakery from all the non essential oils. My frames were all small cell. Foundationless frames and screened bottom boards did not pass the giggle test so I never tried those but I gave TF the old college try. It worked if you call 60% winter loss and a pathetic honey crop success. 

I am sure that Dr Connor is methodologically capable of doing good research and I have learned from reading his books. Since this research was done on the government/academe dime it would seem to me that the information gained from that research should have gone on Agricultural extension pamphlets as twenty pages would have been an adequate precis, but where would that leave wicwas press.


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## jjayf (Aug 15, 2020)

"Wait till you have bees in 2 places, the honey tastes different ,they winter different ETC, in a 25 mile difference"

I have two locations that I keep bees myself, about 20 miles apart. At one location which is isolated I could probably be successful "treatment free" with the bees I have. As long as I start a season with a low infestation rate there they could probably handle keeping the population down. BUT at that location I need to FEED and I my spring flow is over by the end of June and there is nothing for the bees until the next May ... probably why there are no bees out there...and no mites, the bees don't have brood for half the summer and half the winter!

My hives in town have a flow all year from all the "in town" gardeners but If I don't treat 4 times a year the colonies collapse. There are so many beekeepers in town with high infestation rates that I can wash 1% in August and have 20 mites in a wash by October. I went to the local association to find out that EVERYONE buys bees every year... I'm not in it to be buying bees every year...or ever... So I treat in the Spring, I treat during the flow, and as soon as my honey supers come off all the way through Nov I treat in one form or another.
I wanted to be treatment free in the beginning but I lost 100% of my colonies the first year, and my first "mentor" had NEVER had a colony survive until spring for the past 8 years... he just bought bees every year.... not for me thanks.

Then I thought about the fact that we have had varroa here for 30 years and my puney 12 colonies aren't going to breed out varroa. We have folks like Randy Oliver and the Beeweavers devoting 1,000+ colonies to treatment free resistant breeding...So I buy queens from breeders that prioritize resistance ( luckily there are some great ones locally here ) and do what I can to keep my colonies alive. Its just more fun when my bees are alive in the spring.

I found a mentor that doesn't know what to do with all his bees he is so good at keeping them alive... so I just copied what he does and now I don't know what to do with the fact that these things multiply exponentially if your not careful.

My old mentor has even changed his tune and started treating...and guess what, he didn't buy any bees last year and is up to 8 colonies instead all of them collapsing this fall, like he has experienced this past decade... he's a lot happier too.

I'm not saying don't try , I'm just sharing my experience.
From one Veteran to another thank you for your service , keep you powder dry, your axe sharp and your varroa infestation under 1%
DOL


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Vance G said:


> I gave TF the old college try. It worked if you call 60% winter loss and a pathetic honey crop success.


LOL, said with good humor Vance.

I remember when around 70% of Beesourcers were Treatment free, and talking about their success. The word "success" came up frequently and was also a topic of debate how it should be defined.

I would like to know what happened to a lot of those folks, especially the more vociferous ones.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

psm1212 said:


> He can also be quite gruff. I have met him a few times. He is nice enough, but is rather direct.


This likely explains a lot. I did another search and found a picture so oddly enough, that helped. While it’s not a guarantee of wisdom, there is a point of view from a person who has seen a few years that’s worth considering.



psm1212 said:


> If you want to have a good conversation about treatment-free beekeeping, there is a sub-forum for those conversations.


Thank you, I will go read there as well. I want to reiterate I’m not even a beekeeper yet much less a TF beek, but I do think if there are ways to help the bees help themselves, they are worth considering as part of one’s approach 



Gray Goose said:


> order the bees and the wooden ware and just jump in


Ordered the hives and related stuff yesterday actually, pretty psyched about that. My schedule is wild so I want to leave myself enough time to get everything built, sealed, painted, etc. 

There is the argument that if I don’t have time now, maybe bees are a bad idea. The craziness right now should be over in a few months. I hope. 



Nicksotherhoney said:


> I remember watching that seminar live via the internet and what I took away from it was he didn’t want to dive into the whole mess that varroa is..seems like he wanted to keep things k.i.s.s.


Thanks for that. That’s probably it. I don’t know enough yet to qualify things I hear and read so that’s why I’m asking here 

Thanks all!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Dealing with the varroa is a story that goes back nearly 40 years; many of the theories and positions taken have changed greatly and are still evolving. Many authors were faced with having to change their dearly held positions. That does not come easily to many. A quote from the author Tolstoy suggests a scenario that might hold sway.

_ "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." - Tolstoy."_

Some of the "gurus" out there really should go back and note that their positions have changed to reflect realities as seen today.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

That would certainly make it easier on folks like me. Another issue is the “truth” as written on the Internet may change, but rando website where you found it may not have been updated for 10 years. 

I appreciate the frank discourse here!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

jjayf said:


> "Wait till you have bees in 2 places, the honey tastes different ,they winter different ETC, in a 25 mile difference"
> 
> I have two locations that I keep bees myself, about 20 miles apart. At one location which is isolated I could probably be successful "treatment free" with the bees I have. As long as I start a season with a low infestation rate there they could probably handle keeping the population down. BUT at that location I need to FEED and I my spring flow is over by the end of June and there is nothing for the bees until the next May ... probably why there are no bees out there...and no mites, the bees don't have brood for half the summer and half the winter!
> 
> ...


right so what works in one place may not in the next.
Until you "try" your place and see what happens you somewhat do not know.
Easy to see why keepers have "differing views" as the locale matters.

BTW I have abandoned some places and found new ones. A whole nuther discussion.
If it don't work , don't stay. IMO not every place is a bee site.

GG


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Keep reading and absorbing as much info as you can, then get some bees and believe what your eyes are showing you. Then you will be able to discern what works for you in your area.

Alex


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## BenjaminM (Mar 10, 2020)

The club I am a member of seems dead set against taking any advice from YouTube, period. It seems their largest concerns are these personalities are spreading bad habits / ideas.

I try to take a little more moderate approach. Listen to these folks and watch what they do. Try it out for yourself, and within a year, you will know what works best for you.

Beekeeping in NW Georgia is most certainly different that Louisiana, Alaska, or Hawaii. And probably different that Tennessee. What works great in these places may not be as effective where I am.

Heck, even two hives side by side may vary, depending on the queen, genetics, mite load, and population.

Especially if you're looking to do TF, I recommend you do mite washes. There is no excuse for coming back in 6 months and asking why your colonies died if you didn't treat, and you don't have the numbers to back up this decision.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I want to be careful to restate this: I am not saying I will be treatment-free. I'm saying I'd like to get to where my hives don't need treatments. I will absolutely monitor mite load.

I think it's relatively easy to determine who is authoritative and who is not - but for the gray areas, I ask. That's why I'm asking about this one. 

For instance, I don't think I've seen any _bad_ videos on queen rearing. Or maybe I've just not loaded up my library with crap yet.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

The trouble with YouTube is that it contains everything you need to know to be a successful beekeeper while also containing hours upon hours of absolutely terrible beekeeping advice. And in many cases the presentation of that information isn't particularly different because of whackjobs, hucksters, and groupies that promote and elevate what is, frankly, garbage.

New beekeepers don't know enough to be able to suss out all of the bad from the good. And that's not their fault. The first book I read about bees was Les Crowder's TBH book and while I'm sure it had some good information in it... it also had a lot of bad information and what I would consider lies or misrepresentations. And the wild part about beekeeping is you can believe all sorts of absolutely false information and still keep bees just fine. Bees are very adaptable. If you think of bees like a dog (not to advocate thinking of them as pets) there is a huge variation of 'dogkeepers' and some of them are totally horrible at training, feeding, etc.

I try to stick to particular people and not clubs or 'shows' necessarily. Like the National Honey Show... most of that stuff is great. But then there's a rambling, clueless old man every once in awhile and it just makes me scratch my head.
Michael Palmer, Ian Steppler, and Kamon Reynolds are good sources off the top of my head from a 'how to keep bees' standpoint. As an exception to the rule... University of Guelph is also a good resource from what I've seen.
For a deeper more scientific dive... Randy Oliver, Marla Spivak, Jamie Ellis, Tom Seeley, and The Koenigers (Gudran and Nikolous). 
There's overlap in these groups, particularly with Mr. Oliver. But I don't necessarily want Tom Seeley to be helping me learn how to keep bees because he isn't necessarily a "beekeeper" in a strict sense of the word. He's more of a scientist. They might be fantastic beekeepers, but that's not the focus of their public bee life if you will. 
I won't bother with a list of who to avoid and there's obviously a TON more available information out there and other great sources. These are just the ones I kind of default to. I try to avoid the cutout and bee rescue folks as I don't find any of that information particularly useful to the act of beekeeping. Now, if you're going to do a cutout it might make sense to take a look at some of that. 

Treatment and treatment-free just seems to get so contentious sometimes. This is hardly scientific, but I've got quite a few beekeeping friends who initially were TF who have since worked into some of the softer treatments (like OAV) because they are tired of the loses and sickness. In my opinion they're just kind of snapping back to reality from la-la land in a lot of ways. I don't see a lot of traditional beekeepers making the jump to TF... and I know that's a fallacious argument. But I think it's safe to say that every single beekeeper would rather be treatment free if it worked for them. And the reality is that it just doesn't for most people. 
I'd also make the argument that a new beekeepers number one priority should be to keep healthy bees capable of surviving winter to the best of their ability. Because I can tell you with absolute certainty that being on the one-and-done cycle of buying packages/nucs and letting them all die for 2, 3, 4+ years gets you nowhere in your beekeeping journey, really.

I think some of the hesitancy to talk about varroa might stem from the fact that in some random sample of beekeepers sitting at a bee talk, there's a high likelihood of having a complete nutjob who has an axe to grind or a bone to pick or really just wants to get some sort of rant in to hear themselves talk. I haven't watched the video the OP is talking about, I don't think, and I don't know that I've ever listened or read anything by Dr. Connor. But I have heard some beekeepers talk about having what I would call varroa fatigue. It might have been Michael Palmer or it might have been someone else. But I remember someone saying something to the effect of "I'm tired of talking about it because varroa isn't a problem if you know what you're doing" (paraphrasing). It's the same issue I have with most club activity (at least in my experience). I mean we're going to talk about how to shake packages in, how to feed syrup to your new package, how to install a nucleus colony, make sure you push all your frames tight together... like how many YEARS of this type of stuff need to be hashed over with in many cases the same people. 

*Progress as a beekeeper*, that's my main advice. Make your decisions... embrace the outcomes. You'll have failures and when you do, strive for a deeper understanding about the root cause. Don't be like 90% of beekeepers who open their deadouts, see bees head down in cells, and believe that means they starved because that's what their "mentor" or "the club" told them. A successful beekeeper should have more bees than they know what to do with, if you find yourself taking advice from someone who has a failing/failed, sad little apiary... look somewhere else. They shouldn't really be buying bees after a couple years (in my opinion). If you're trying to learn beekeeping from someone who has a standing 10 package order every spring from a local supplier for the last decade, expect that you'll also be doing that if you follow their methods. Trust your eyes even if you don't necessarily know what you're looking at in some cases. Just absorb what a healthy colony looks like. I think there's more to learn from watching Mr. Palmer poke through one of his nucs in a 10 minute video than there is in two or three hour discussions with some celebrity types.



LBussy said:


> For instance, I don't think I've seen any _bad_ videos on queen rearing. Or maybe I've just not loaded up my library with crap yet.


Likely the higher barrier to entry for queen rearing. Meaning, you kind of at least have to know how to keep bees alive over winter to do any sort of appreciable queen rearing.
I'm sure there's plenty of dumb stuff about queen rearing on YouTube, but I think that's more niche and filtered out some of the fluff.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Some operators seem to have minor difficulties of keeping ahead of the varro but the reason may be in the method of operation rather than any adaptation on the part of the bees. Multiple splitting so that individual colonies stay small, ongoing sales of nucs, importing a high percentage of queens to head the nucs etc., limits the number of colonies that must survive. A short winter and high potential forage area helps. Throw in some natural isolation and you may have a recipe for having apparently mite resistant bees. The Devil is in the details.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

jwcarlson said:


> The trouble with YouTube is that it contains everything you need to know to be a successful beekeeper while also containing hours upon hours of absolutely terrible beekeeping advice. And in many cases the presentation of that information isn't particularly different because of whackjobs, hucksters, and groupies that promote and elevate what is, frankly, garbage.


Agreed - I think in a lot of cases it's not hard to figure those folks out. In some ways, "bad YouTuber" is apparent no matter whether you can critically examine the subject or not. Then there's the corroboration: If I am listening to a random person but he's saying a lot of the same things as Randy Oliver and Michael Palmer, I place a higher value on what I view.

I also find myself watching the same somewhat small group of people for the bee science part, and expanding only as they do. For instance, if I trust X person and then see X has collaborated with Y, Y goes up a couple of notches.

For the rest, some of it is looking at the mechanics. Take a walkway split (just pulling a well-known technique out of thin air.) If I want to watch someone do it, I can watch about 30 people in an hour and learn a little from each one. Tips to not make a mistake are not at the same level as bee science, so I can learn from a lot of people in that manner. Something as simple as "I put my box here to keep from twisting" or "I have one of these stools that keeps me comfortable" are not science and they can be learned from even the newest unknown beekeeper.



jwcarlson said:


> The first book I read about bees was Les Crowder's TBH book and while I'm sure it had some good information in it... it also had a lot of bad information and what I would consider lies or misrepresentations.


In my mind, I group those things (same as Michael Bush as I brought up in another thread) as information shared to support a style/method. Therefore I group all of that information into a healthy skepticism bucket and look for the corroboration I mentioned above. Obviously, lots of folks have kept TBH in the world, quite successfully. If you use that information, not as a means to convince yourself it's right, but rather to support you as you try that method, it makes more sense. So the "method support" can be sound, and the arguments for the method can be faulty and there will still be value there.

That's how I look at it anyway.



jwcarlson said:


> I try to stick to particular people and not clubs or 'shows' necessarily. Like the National Honey Show... most of that stuff is great. But then there's a rambling, clueless old man every once in awhile and it just makes me scratch my head.
> Michael Palmer, Ian Steppler, and Kamon Reynolds are good sources off the top of my head from a 'how to keep bees' standpoint. As an exception to the rule... University of Guelph is also a good resource from what I've seen.
> For a deeper more scientific dive... Randy Oliver, Marla Spivak, Jamie Ellis, Tom Seeley, and The Koenigers (Gudran and Nikolous).


I'm thrilled that so far at least I seem to be tracking on some of the names which seem to be trusted and well accepted. I think of all those names, Jamie Ellis is the only one I've not come across (as I go to bookmark him.) As far as books go, I am reading Seely right now.

Now when I come across a channel in which there's a video listed named "BLOWING UP a Yellow Jacket's Nest!!", I know to have a pass on that particular expert.



jwcarlson said:


> As an exception to the rule... University of Guelph is also a good resource from what I've seen.


To which rule would that be an exception? I find those very interesting, especially with the locally-derived differences (canvas instead of an inner cover, for instance.)



jwcarlson said:


> Treatment and treatment-free just seems to get so contentious sometimes.


Again, with my astounding, staggering experience, I write that off as emotional reactions. I get it. People wind themselves up past the point where they want to be right and jump right to where they want to be believed. That's dangerous (in anything.) I think it's safe to say every beekeeper wants healthy bees. I will go out on a limb and say every beekeeper who treats wishes they did not have to. To that extent, everyone is in agreement.

The difference is the spectrum from those who actually don't need to treat, through the ones that don't have any idea, to the ones that _really should_ but do not, to the ones that monitor and treat, then all the way on the other side are the ones who treat religiously and have no idea if they need to.

To your point about keeping a pet: If your pet is telling you they are thirsty, give them water. You don't tell them they are X breed and they should not need it. You also bring them to the vet for checkups to head off worse things. These are what careful and compassionate people do. Even if we are talking about livestock, the same applies. Why people would ignore horrendous losses because they are religiously gripping an ideal is beyond me.

Yes, I want healthy bees. Yes, I want chemical-free hives. First of all, however, I want bees. 



jwcarlson said:


> I'd also make the argument that a new beekeepers number one priority should be to keep healthy bees capable of surviving winter to the best of their ability.


Dr. Adam Ingrao was the national director for Heroes to Hives until recently. He has his quirks. How many videos can you really get away with by starting with an opening shot of you reading a book, and then looking startled that you have a visitor and say "Oh, hello there!"? I mean really.

That said, he's a legit Entomologist, professor, professional beekeeper and he got the program off the ground. If I take one thing to my grave that he's hammered in our heads, it's that we must check for pests and pathogens (especially Varroa.) I think he's even said, "you can choose not to treat but you cannot reasonably choose to ignore the status of your hive." Paraphrased, but that was my takeaway.

I think the guy got burned out trying to take the program from 2,000 in one year to 8,000-10,000 the next. You could hear it in his voice when he shared information. That's the last takeaway from all this I guess: When you get old and grumpy, realize it, and either temper your delivery or do something different. It sounds like that may be where Dr. Connor is (see how I hooked that back around to my first post to stay on topic? )



jwcarlson said:


> I think some of the hesitancy to talk about varroa might stem from the fact that in some random sample of beekeepers sitting at a bee talk, there's a high likelihood of having a complete nutjob who has an axe to grind or a bone to pick or really just wants to get some sort of rant in to hear themselves talk. I haven't watched the video the OP is talking about


One of the guys in my class does that when anyone talks about the climate changing over time and the impact on bees. I can almost hear the guns ****ing when these people who have never met us start sharing their information. It makes me feel a little sorry for them.



jwcarlson said:


> how many YEARS of this type of stuff need to be hashed over with in many cases the same people.


Well, If you have two new beekeepers watching, it's worth it (thinking about me attending local meetings.) The military instilled training in my head in three steps:

Learn
Do
Teach
You got to claim mastery after step three; not two, certainly not one. So even the "bored observers" at a club meeting can gain something from listening to how to do a mite wash for the 100th time. Better yet, they can get up and help some folks in smaller groups with hands-on to reinforce their own mastery. Even Randy Oliver learned something new about a mite wash in 2020, and shared it in not one, not two, not three, but FOUR parts in the ABJ.



jwcarlson said:


> I'm sure there's plenty of dumb stuff about queen rearing on YouTube, but I think that's more niche and filtered out some of the fluff.


So far.  If I find some really egregious video I'll be sure to share.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

LBussy you seem like a nice guy. I would guess that you have researched and asked enough questions that it is time to quit researching and get to doing. I believe your research has reached the point of diminishing returns and you are going down rabbit holes before you even get bees.

I have acquaintances who read every book, watched every video, and talked to as many experts about raising kids before they had any. With their 1st, everything was Dr XXX says to YYY when they would ask me a question. My reply was usually that raising kids isnt terribly hard, not much different than a dog just love them and feed them more.

The would just look at me horrified.

They raised #1 by the book and that child is quite socially maladjusted. #2 they had to throttle back on the book because of time constraints and do what worked for them. All indications are that #2 is going to do much better at life.

Bringing it back to beekeeping...there is no special secret sauce. You will have the same growing pains we all do. You do what works and learn from your mistakes. "By the book" frequently means Buy the Book and those same experts with hidden knowledge will gladly sell you more bees when yours die.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

LBussy said:


> I can watch about 30 people in an hour and learn a little from each one.


Actually, I say stop it.
Really.

This is akin to me watching Youtube about guns (I don't even own one and have no plans for it).
But it is addictive.
Well, at least I carried an AKM for few months and shut few mags out of it - so I have some practical feel.

None of this matters much until you get the real stuff on hands and get few stings (hopefully without adverse reaction - which could be prohibitive immediately and cold).

I'd spend the off-season prepping and lining up the equipment and figuring out your bee source for the 2022 season.
And no more.
A couple of thick, theoretical books about bees and the keeping would be useful to digest too.
As well as some good BS discussions are worthwhile of slow reading with alongside research.
For example:








A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as...


This post is triggered by a highly respected TF advocate recently posting advice to a new BYBK (backyard Beekeeper) Planing on getting 2 hives and had a question of what to do if his hive started having mite problems “ let them fail and start over the next year” this is compounding on all the...




www.beesource.com


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Steve in PA said:


> Bringing it back to beekeeping...there is no special secret sauce. You will have the same growing pains we all do. You do what works and learn from your mistakes. "By the book" frequently means Buy the Book and those same experts with hidden knowledge will gladly sell you more bees when yours die.





GregV said:


> I'd spend the off-season prepping and lining up the equipment and figuring out your bee source for the 2022 season.
> And no more.



Quite possibly the best advice so far. 

TF is a lofty goal, and I found a path not worth treading, to put it simply I got tired of buying bees every spring, and rarely getting a decent honey crop. If someone cracks the secret we all would like to jump on the bandwagon, assuming it actually works.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Steve in PA said:


> I believe your research has reached the point of diminishing returns and you are going down rabbit holes before you even get bees.


Diminishing returns implies I've made an investment. I have not. I am traveling and I'd be reading/watching something so I may as well study this.



GregV said:


> Actually, I say stop it.
> Really.


I've ordered my woodenware, I'm 800 miles from home ..... what else can I do?

ETA: I also think I have my bee source sorted, and I will check on my proposed yard when I get back in town.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

LBussy said:


> Diminishing returns implies I've made an investment. I have not. I am traveling and I'd be reading/watching something so I may as well study this.


Just be aware how easy it is to go through the looking glass and down the rabbit hole. There is no substitute for doing and experience. 

One book that is a fascinating read is Honeybee Democracy. Honeybee Democracy: Seeley, Thomas D.: 8601400977057: Amazon.com: Books


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

RiodeLobo said:


> One book that is a fascinating read is Honeybee Democracy. Honeybee Democracy: Seeley, Thomas D.: 8601400977057: Amazon.com: Books


I am reading that one now, as a matter of fact. Love me some nice hard-cover books.


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## Vermillion Artisan Cidery (Jul 9, 2021)

I'd agree with GregV on this one. I got super excited and 'studied' alot last year, and while its been helpful... I still had alot of growing pains this year, especially trying out foundationless bee keeping. I've lost one hive to mites...(had to try TF for a year at least) get a base understanding, get some bees, then start applying practical things. Reading/watching someone hold up a frame of bees is very different than doing it yourself.


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## Boondocks (Sep 16, 2020)

Our honey bees can not deal with varroa mites. They are too recent. I believe varroa was first considered a problem in the 1980's. It will take the bees hundreds if not thousands of years to adapt to the mite. We beekeepers have to fight the mites until the bees can come up with a solution. My hope is that native bees will be the first to figure out how to ward off the mites and we can transfer that knowledge to honeybees. Otherwise we are in for the long haul. 
https://beekeep.info/a-treatise-on-...ging-diseases-and-pests/varroa-short-history/ .


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Boondocks said:


> Our honey bees can not deal with varroa mites. They are too recent. I believe varroa was first considered a problem in the 1980's. It will take the bees hundreds if not thousands of years to adapt to the mite. We beekeepers have to fight the mites until the bees can come up with a solution. My hope is that native bees will be the first to figure out how to ward off the mites and we can transfer that knowledge to honeybees. Otherwise we are in for the long haul.
> A history of the Varroa mite. It's introduction and effects around the world. .


Interesting position.
Not sure I am on board with that.
Porta Rico did it in 30 years.

the last paragraph offers some insight. areas too poor or war torn to treat are ahead of areas treating.

GG


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I would love to get my hands on some of those PR bees


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Puerto Rican bees are apis millifera scutellata (Africanized Bees) that are thought to have arrived in PR in the 1990s and quickly dominated the genetic apis millifera stew. It is my understanding that they have not developed any unique tolerance or resistance to varroa mites that are not shared by the rest of the subspecies _a.m. scutellata. _

What they have developed, at least reportedly, is a more gentle disposition, likely due to selection pressures by beekeepers and residents of a small island that can be patrolled much easier than a large continent. 

We can effectively select for gentle bees in our own colonies in the United States. But our western honey bees did not begin in our country with the evolutionary varroa advantages of _a.m. scutellata. _


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

myrdale said:


> The club I am a member of seems dead set against taking any advice from YouTube, period. It seems their largest concerns are these personalities are spreading bad habits / ideas.


When doing a presentation for the local bee club I now always include a section on what I call the 'youtube filter'. It works along this line.

1 - When watching a video about beekeeping, if the presenter is in a spotless new full bee suit, just change the channel, they obviously have not spent much time in a bee yard.
2 - If a presenter looks interesting, look back at the video history. If you see the 'watch me hive my first package of bees' video in the list, move on. This is not a beekeeper, its a videographer trying to make money from youtube views.
3 - If the presenter is pushing you to subscribe and ring the bell, again, move on. They aren't interested in bees, they are interested in youtube revenue.
4 - Look at the presenters location. Yes I know, tiny boxes with two standard frames, one new, one half drawn, may well work for somebody in Alabama that buys syrup in totes, it wont work in our climate.
5 - If the end of the video starts directing you to some store to buy a fancy beekeeping gadget, move on, it's not an educational video, it's an advertisement masquerading as one.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

LBussy said:


> I imagine this one is a rather religious debate, but I am going to try it anyway:
> 
> I was watching some videos posted by NY Bee Wellness, specifically one which was a presentation by Dr. Lawrence John Connor. While the majority of what he had to say was somewhat well agreed-upon, towards the end during Q&A is where either strange beliefs, or perhaps stubbornness took over for Dr. Connor.
> 
> ...


NewYork Bee Wellness is excellent with all speakers she (Pat Bono) has on there. I trust all that NYBW produces on their website. Deb


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Me, I think it is impossible for a new beekeeper to discern what is and is not good advice on youtube videos. And on internet blogs for that matter.

Even beekeepers with a few hives for several years can still not have all the tools they need to be able to judge.

Agree with some of the former comments but I'll add this. If the beekeeper has been successful over several years, then most of his content is likely correct.

But even the successful can hold some untrue beliefs. But in the end, if it works, do that.


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## NY Bee Wellness (Dec 21, 2013)

Thank you for watching the video! Dr. Connor is such a great resource. He may have not wanted to talk about varroa treatment because there was not a lot of time to adequately discuss the issue. Treatment strategies are varied and have different pros and cons, and there is much to be discovered about varroa.
. He has authored many books, such as, https://wicwas.com/project/honey-bee-biology-and-beekeeping-revised-edition-55-00/

The video is here on the NY Bee Wellness Youtube channel;( the comment is at 63 minute mark),
*Colony Management: Fall to Spring with Larry Connor - a NY Bee Wellness Webinar*





next week on September 21, 7:30 pm ET, is a webinar from the head of the USDA Beltsville lab, talking about diagnostics: 
Welcome! You are invited to join a webinar: Honey Bee Disease Diagnostics and Research Conducted at the USDA Bee Lab. After registering, you will receive a confirmation email about joining the webinar.

I try to have the most informative videos posted.


Good Luck with your beekeeping!

-Pat Bono







LBussy said:


> I imagine this one is a rather religious debate, but I am going to try it anyway:
> 
> I was watching some videos posted by NY Bee Wellness, specifically one which was a presentation by Dr. Lawrence John Connor. While the majority of what he had to say was somewhat well agreed-upon, towards the end during Q&A is where either strange beliefs, or perhaps stubbornness took over for Dr. Connor.
> 
> ...


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## dleemc1 (Dec 31, 2012)

LBussy said:


> I imagine this one is a rather religious debate, but I am going to try it anyway:
> 
> I was watching some videos posted by NY Bee Wellness, specifically one which was a presentation by Dr. Lawrence John Connor. While the majority of what he had to say was somewhat well agreed-upon, towards the end during Q&A is where either strange beliefs, or perhaps stubbornness took over for Dr. Connor.
> 
> ...


mites are the biggest challeng i face.


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## rinkevichjm (Feb 14, 2018)

LBussy said:


> I want to be careful to restate this: I am not saying I will be treatment-free. I'm saying I'd like to get to where my hives don't need treatments. I will absolutely monitor mite load.
> 
> I think it's relatively easy to determine who is authoritative and who is not - but for the gray areas, I ask. That's why I'm asking about this one.
> 
> For instance, I don't think I've seen any _bad_ videos on queen rearing. Or maybe I've just not loaded up my library with crap yet.


The native bees from whence the varroa came have solved the issue somewhat. They heat their brood higher than varroa can stand except for drone brood. Most researchers have come to the realization that mites need to be thermally treated and they know there is a second species that chemicals don’t work on. Many beekeepers, esp the moderators of the largest group on a certain social media site refuse to even accept that that method works.


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## tenleez (Jan 23, 2016)

After bee school I spent a year just reading because I realized there was a lot to know. I decided to build my own beehives after reading "Keeping Bees With a Smile" by Lazutin. Dr. Leo Sharshkin published that book and he has his own website (www.horizontalhive.com). He keeps bees in Layens hives and never ever treats his bees. He runs a few workshops each year around Cabool, MO and does speaking engagements as well. He doesn't buy packages, he sets swarm traps. All his bees are local stock. He has the luxury of living in a rural area and that makes a difference. 

The problem with varroa treatments are many. Some require certain temperatures to apply or you'll kill the queen. Some require you take your honey supers off. Then there's the problem of mites developing resistance to treatments over time. You get the idea. Treatment-free requires the ability to perform integrated pest management (IPM) on a timely basis to be successful. Possible to do but it's not beekeeping 101. I know you want to make this work. Experience is a tough teacher - she tests first and teaches after. All the best!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

tenleez said:


> Dr. Leo Sharshkin published that book and he has his own website (www.horizontalhive.com). He keeps bees in Layens hives and never ever treats his bees.......... He doesn't buy packages, he sets swarm traps.


If his treatment free methods work, why does he have to bolster numbers by catching swarms?

I have plenty bees, and don't catch swarms, they are a nuisance, and I have no idea what I am getting. They could be anything, from anywhere.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

In fact it's one of the criterion I use to figure who I can trust. Anyone who spends a lot of time talking about how to catch swarms, clearly has issues maintaining their bee population and I don't pay them much attention.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Like many worthy pursuits, beekeeping is an evolving art form. I've probably got over 50 books on the subject (earliest from 1905) and while many things have changed over the years (not necessarily improved) most things have not. We're all still performing the basics as written many years ago. What's new is mites (and their diseases) and how we/they are dealing with it all. Both our bees and our brother/sister beeks are learning/evolving all the time. It never stops, or at least it shouldn't.

Who to trust? There's to many to mention, I might be biased but I still find myself returning to Richard Taylor's books for just about anything 'not' relative to varroa. The data on that subject is still evolving imho.

Thanks for military service? I have this sticker on my truck; "If ya want to thank me for my service, work for peace"  I've known lots of vets/beekeepers over the years and have often wondered how many veterans take up beekeeping as a way to stay in the moment (seeking a percentage)......hard to think of anything else when your head is in a box full of stinging insects. 

Perhaps a survey would be appropriate? Thanks for this discussion.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> I would love to get my hands on some of those PR bees


They too would eventually succumb to varroa soon after leaving the island.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Oldtimer said:


> In fact it's one of the criterion I use to figure who I can trust. Anyone who spends a lot of time talking about how to catch swarms, clearly has issues maintaining their bee population and I don't pay them much attention.


Hi OT,
define "a lot of time" 
maybe that is the issue, I like to catch swarms.
Many I catch are my own or cast from what was my own.
Most are used to make NUCs and Hatch QCs bees have a use...

Not sure the "swarm catchers" are in the do not trust camp.

I understand you do not want to or need to , however some want to or need to.

Dr Leo advocates local bees , so incumbent on that recommendation, he offers the How to and he walks the walk.
IMO not a untrustworthy path.



GG


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes perhaps I overstated it GG, nothing wrong with catching a swarm.

My issue is with people who claim they are successful, but if you read on they may collect say, 6 swarms in an average year, and they have 7 or 8 hives. 

That means their survival is near zilch. If they did not replenish losses with swarms they would soon have zero bees. They collect swarms, keep them till they die, and think they are successful. I guess in one way they are successful, they may even harvest a honey crop. But in terms of knowing how to run a hive, they are not successful, I would not recommend anyone follow their methods.

Yet such people do exist, post videos and write blogs, and teach people how to keep bees.

To give information that can be considered trustworthy, a beekeeper should at least be able to keep his hives alive. If he collects swarms each year but his hive numbers remain constant, that means the real picture is he is going backwards.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> Dr Leo advocates local bees , so incumbent on that recommendation, he offers the How to and he walks the walk.
> IMO not a untrustworthy path.


Well, Dr. Leo also then should identify places on the map where one can replicate what he is doing.
For one, he could invite others settle to next to him and see for themselves. 

A matter of fact, him having a PhD. he should know better.
Entirely possible he just keeps it quiet due to the ongoing business goals conflict.

People are not informed and not even thinking of the location context.
People must understand that most locations don't even have the "local bees" due to the impossibility to autonomously and sustainably have such a thing as "local bees".


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

I think we all do well (present company included) to generally temper our observations as just that- our observations in our specific context. Attempting to extrapolate them out to a nearly universal applicability is at best suffering from not considering the highly-dynamic nature of all the variables that go into successful beekeeping in a particular location and it's associated climate/forage profile and bee population. 

And is at worst resorting to hyperbole- while often well-intentioned, assertions along the lines of 'always' and 'never' in beekeeping (particularly as it relates to the nature of resistance) can obfuscate the reality that there is still much we don't know about available honey bee resistance mechanisms nor the scope and nature of how they might be developing in specific contexts.

So while we are all entitled to our opinions, I do respect the OP's sincere desire to understand all he can about the prospects of TF beekeeping and at least explore whether his location, goals and management approach make it a worthwhile experiment for him.

As to who to trust, I think there have been a lot of great suggestions put forth- and as we all know, good bee husbandry (TF or conventional) shares most of the same essential elements- so regardless of where one falls on the TF to Conventional spectrum, if they have a demonstrated track record of success in a particular area of beekeeping that interests you (i.e. nucs, package sales, pollination, honey, etc.) they probably have something to share that might be of benefit in your operation.

Stepping off my soapbox now-

Respectfully,

Russ


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

There are 4 or 5 beekeepers in my general area that I speak with often. Two of us treat for mites and make it a priority. Work hard through the year at it. Pay for expensive Apivar strips. Do OAV treatments in the "shoulder" months. 

The rest of them shake their heads at us and tell us we are crazy. They keep between 10 and 20 colonies each and don't treat at all. However, they catch swarms. I call them to come catch my swarms and for swarm calls that I get from others.

I have talked to them enough to realize that they are simply cycling their colonies annually. Not a lot is actually surviving from year to year in their yards. 

In their eyes, they are successful beekeepers. They have roughly the same amount of colonies year to year. They make some honey. 

And perhaps they are successful. It is all what you want to get out of the experience. 

I think there are a great deal of "treatment-free" beekeepers that fit this pattern.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I remember reading a post where Oldtimer unloaded on a wannabe _"guru". _Events since have pretty well established that he was spot on. The fellow was beligerently full of himself and could not see things in a mirror. 

Trusting someone should involve verification of his story. Is his success repeatable or due to a fluke of circumstance. Sometimes there is a fair bit of variance between what really is, and what is reported by the congregation. The devil is in the details.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Is it not time yet to say - there is no binary TF/Conventional separation?
It does not exist.
Especially the "conventional" part - what IS the conventional?
Everything non-TF?
Kidding me... 

What about the term - "location appropriate beekeeping".


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

psm1212 said:


> I have talked to them enough to realize that they are simply cycling their colonies annually. Not a lot is actually surviving from year to year in their yards.


Exactly what I have been doing - "simply cycling the colonies annually".
It works for as long as there is a continuous in-feed into this model from _somewhere_.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Vermillion Artisan Cidery said:


> Reading/watching someone hold up a frame of bees is very different than doing it yourself.


I agree - and I've shared this but not sure I did so in this thread. I am spending time in bee yards as much as possible - at least every couple of weeks.



Oldtimer said:


> I would love to get my hands on some of those PR bees


I know you're not in the US, but I wonder from the US-based people: Why can't _we_ get them? PR is still the US.



drummerboy said:


> They too would eventually succumb to varroa soon after leaving the island.


If they are resistant there, why would they not be resistant on the mainland?



grozzie2 said:


> When doing a presentation for the local bee club I now always include a section on what I call the 'youtube filter'.





Oldtimer said:


> I think it is impossible for a new beekeeper to discern what is and is not good advice on youtube videos.


When I went back to take some grad classes, we discussed this as "critical review." When you are learning, you are seeking knowledge so do not have the knowledge to judge. What you can do is apply certain rules like peer review, etc., and hope for the best.



grozzie2 said:


> if the presenter is in a spotless new full bee suit, just change the channel


So you nasty dudes never get new clothes?! 



NY Bee Wellness said:


> Thank you for watching the video!


I appreciate you sharing them, Pat. Of course, I have a local beek meeting on the 21st, but I'll be sure to catch you on YouTube. I've been subscribed for a while.



tenleez said:


> The problem with varroa treatments are many. Some require certain temperatures to apply or you'll kill the queen. Some require you take your honey supers off.


The problems with heat treatment are not necessarily with the process, but with the devices. And by the way, this is a place where I do have considerable knowledge and experience. I have avoided this subject because it's _yet another_ religious debate. I have reverse engineered all of the commercial products so far because I do have experience with precise temperature control and microcontrollers. Painting with a broad brush, the problems with heat treatments can broadly be assigned to one or more of:

Heat output is not sufficient for the application
Design choices/compromises for easy application/removal
User interface insufficient for control/feedback required
Please note I am not _at all_ speaking to whether heat treatment is effective, I'm only commenting on the ability to achieve and maintain a precise heat for a specific period of time.



drummerboy said:


> Thanks for military service? I have this sticker on my truck; "If ya want to thank me for my service, work for peace"


The thanks have been coming in for a long time now, and I'm still not comfortable receiving them. I know people feel like thanking veterals, so I try to be gracious and accept those thanks. My ideal form of thanks would be people donating to a cause that helps veterans like the Wounded Warrior Project (or any of many others.) I believe people do what they can, though, and I guess I'm grateful that I came home to a lot more support than that which greeted my military mentors when they got back home.

I agree that veterans are an untapped resource who might be applied to incredible results in a number of areas. Missouri is trying this and has a number of veteran-focused Ag programs. I'm trying to learn as much as I can - but the family farm is in Kansas (despite me living in MO right now) so I'm learning the words/terms and then searching there.


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## tenleez (Jan 23, 2016)

Dr. Leo juggles keeping an apiary, building beehives, raising queens, catching swarms, selling nuc's, honey and wax. Add to that his speaking engagements, live conferences, seminars as well as translating/publishing/writing books. He's not a "lightweight" when it comes to beekeeping. 

He is conducting 2 seminars in October. One on Natural Beekeeping 10/22-24 and one on Advanced Natural Beekeeping with Natural Beek guru Kirk Webster on 10/30. If this guy is the failure you want to make him out to be I don't think Webster would waste his time with him. Unless you want to disparage Webster as well.....


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

tenleez said:


> Kirk Webster on 10/30. If this guy is the failure you want to make him out to be I don't think Webster would waste his time with him. Unless you want to disparage Webster as well.....


I'm certainly not talking poorly about Kirk, I've greatly enjoyed reading and watching what he has "out there". But hasn't he basically lost his entire apiary at least twice? Now, maybe it was just big setbacks, I don't know. But I fairly distinctly remember Michael Palmer talking about helping Kirk rebuild (as they were friends).
Perhaps I'm misremembering or crossing some signals. And I am also not implying that it means you shouldn't listen to Mr. Webster, far from it, actually. That said, it's been some years since I've seen or read anything from him, I'll have to look him up... wonder if he still has someone updating his website with his writings?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Oldtimer said:


> Yes perhaps I overstated it GG, nothing wrong with catching a swarm.
> 
> My issue is with people who claim they are successful, but if you read on they may collect say, 6 swarms in an average year, and they have 7 or 8 hives.
> 
> ...


understood, and As much as I want to wiggle out I would have to agree with you.

I catch them to keep them out of folks walls and eves, also for the thrill of it.
kinda sure the 1 of 5 was mine but also kinda sure to 2 yellow ones were not.
From what I am hearing there were a lot of swarms this year.

if I get a nice batch of queen cells from a hive I like,, the swarm hives become fodder to make up NUCs.
kinda like a bee surplus, to play with. free bees..

ok carry on

GG


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

tenleez said:


> Dr. Leo juggles keeping an apiary, building beehives, raising queens, catching swarms, selling nuc's, honey and wax. Add to that his speaking engagements, live conferences, seminars as well as translating/publishing/writing books. He's not a "lightweight" when it comes to beekeeping.
> 
> He is conducting 2 seminars in October. One on Natural Beekeeping 10/22-24 and one on Advanced Natural Beekeeping with Natural Beek guru Kirk Webster on 10/30. If this guy is the failure you want to make him out to be I don't think Webster would waste his time with him. Unless you want to disparage Webster as well.....


One can be an author, have a degree and be a light weight...look at our politicians and their are MANY who speak at bee conferences who are incompetent. Too many. Shoot, guys like Leo and myself get invited primarily due to our popularity not necessarily of level of competency.
My biggest problem with Leo is he is bashing American style beekeepers who work very hard to safeguard their honeybees. All to promote his "way better" methods that he just so happens to have books and other things to sell you so you can bee keep with a smile! I'd be smiling too if I sold my honey for 60 dollars a pound (yes you heard me right) he charges 60 bucks a pound.

In the real world to get to the smiling you have to wade thru the losses associated with understanding your bees biology, their pests biology, disease, feeding and how to maintain a sustainable apiary (and you still have rough years!). His method of letting good bees die and replenishing bees from caught swarms is a waste of good bees and I personally think he does not properly suit the term bee"keep"er.
Is what he doing wrong? Not necessarily. Not any more wrong than a guy going out to the woods and collecting ginseng from natures benevolent side. We don't call them ginseng farmers we call them hunters. Leo is a hunter and trapper of bees. The message isn't that great for the beekeeping industry. It is confusing to new beekeepers and watering down proper bee husbandry which is what beekeepers and our beekeeping economy actually needs.

To summarize, He swipes swarms from nature to cover his lack of bee husbandry and he charges 60 bucks a pound for honey due to his fame which is not something the average beekeeper can do... sounds more like a taker than a giver and yet he calls we the traditional beekeepers and our hives are causing the problems for the honeybee.

Ha!


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

And there are plenty of folks around to buy into the hype. Recently, that false hero praise for being a beek was heaped upon my shoulders by a well meaning, good natured person who explained to me what is killing the bees. It is micro waves and magnetic fields being generated by wind turbines. 
I explained to her that one only has to keep bees for a couple of years to understand that Varroa mites are the number one enemy to which she replied, "What's a mite"?
The sad part is, she will find someone to exploit her kindness.

Alex


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Leo is a hunter and trapper of bees.


In his particular setting, he entirely could be keeping his bees hands off.
Once blessed with a strong enough local feral population, one can indeed just have the hives standing about and be collecting the spoils once a year.
Shoot, I'd be doing that too.

The real issue that he is messaging his approach is available to everyone and everywhere - this is blatant mis-information.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

LBussy said:


> So you nasty dudes never get new clothes?!


Curious why you would call me a nasty dude.

But yes, even this nasty old codger gets a new bee suit once in a while. I wear a vented jacked with the fencing hood style of veil. The weak point on those is where the front screen is stitched to the hood, it tends to let go eventually. Some last a season, some last two seasons, I've gone thru a few over the years. So yes, if I was doing a video every day I went out to the bee yard, then about 1 in 300 would start out with a new bee jacket, and, by the end of that first visit out to the yard, the jacket will have propolis stains, probably a few wax blobs stuck in it, and more than one yellow spot where bees have defecated, this is particularly noticeable early in the season putting on patties on colonies that have been clustered for a month. Then near the end of the season, more than likely it will have a couple of duct tape patches somewhere.

I stand by the comment, a spotless new bee suit has not spent any signficant amount of time inspecting bee hives.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Meanwhile, here is live example of omitting the realities of "location appropriate beekeeping".
The exact messaging context I was referring to.
Read and register for the "*Advanced Natural Beekeeping ~ October 30, 2021 ~ West Plains, MO".*

Notice the key words - "natural beekeeping", "limitless", "time-tested", "BIG success", blah, blah, ....
So here we observe a trivial marketing context setup that translates into - "The natural beekeeping is limitless and is time-tested and it is a BIG success".
Thus it must be applicable to everyone and everywhere.
And you know the rest...



> This full-day program will _inspire you_ with the* limitless opportunities of natural beekeeping*, and will show _practical_ time-tested ways to achieve _*BIG success*_* whether you have a few hives or a thousand.*







__





Advanced Natural Beekeeping | Kirk Webster and Dr Leo Sharashkin







horizontalhive.com


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

grozzie2 said:


> Curious why you would call me a nasty dude.


You can choose to take offense at lots of things I say. Pretty clearly, however, I was tongue in cheek.



grozzie2 said:


> I stand by the comment, a spotless new bee suit has not spent any signficant amount of time inspecting bee hives.


It's a strawman fallacy to extend that to say _any person wearing_ a spotless new bee suit has not spent any signficant amount of time inspecting bee hives. For instance, if I were a famous beekeeper that actually knew what he was doing, and then extended that to a YouTube empire, I might have a clean suit on for cut shots.

I get what you mean though.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

LOL, I stand guilty. Must have been that one day in 300


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> Meanwhile, here is live example of omitting the realities of "location appropriate beekeeping".
> The exact messaging context I was referring to.
> Read and register for the "*Advanced Natural Beekeeping ~ October 30, 2021 ~ West Plains, MO".*
> 
> ...


there was a day we had to get on a stool and tout the features of a hair tonic or a sleeping poshient.
times have not changed "much"
the stool, today, is radio , then TV , Now digital/net

BTW I could not sell honey at 60 a LB, so maybe I am the chump.....

GG


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> there was a day we had to get on a stool and tout the features of a hair tonic or a sleeping poshient.


Reminds me of my favorite after shave's marketing:


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

I’ll throw in 2 cents. Most folks I trust say, “Here’s what I do, here is what I used to do that lead me to what I now do.” My great grandmother said, “A dog that will bring a bone will take one.” The quickest way for me to close off what someone is saying is if they are attacking someone else’s methods, or just someone else. Do I believe that all opinions have the same validity, absolutely not. But opinions with years of experience and no attitude, that will perk up my ears.

To the OP, I wouldn’t walk into a bee club and answer a question on varroa unless I wanted to stay there until 2am. By then everyone would be calm and most would go home to bed with no change in thinking from when they walked in.

I’m not trying to name drop at all as I don’t know the man at all. I was in Bob Binnie’s shop a while back and spoke to him briefly. At one point I said, “I totally don’t know what I’m doing,” to which he replied, “None of us do.” Respect - I know a few people with semi open minds in bees, but not many.

Doesn’t mean I never learn from someone who I’m convinced is 95% wrong. Still picking up tips that make common sense from all kinds of folks around the edges.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Doesn’t mean I never learn from someone who I’m convinced is 95% wrong.


I learn from people who are wrong every day. The only problem is most of the time that's me.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Of the Puerto Rico bees.


> > They too would eventually succumb to varroa soon after leaving the island.
> 
> 
> If they are resistant there, why would they not be resistant on the mainland?


Because as soon as you bring them to the mainland, they very quickly be no more PR bees.
Out-crossing and dilution happens very quickly.
It takes a program similar to the Russian bee program in planning, implementation, persistence, and scale - not trivial at all.
But is it even legal? 
I did not check.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

GregV said:


> Because as soon as you bring them to the mainland, they very quickly be no more PR bees.


Doh. I should know that by now.



GregV said:


> But is it even legal? I did not check.


Well, I guess I should have googled:





__





USDA APHIS | Information for Travelers Coming to the U.S. Mainland from Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands







www.aphis.usda.gov


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

LBussy said:


> Doh. I should know that by now.
> 
> 
> Well, I guess I should have googled:
> ...


Says: NOT ALLOWED - .... Insects (live).........


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Yep. Makes sense I guess. They have a climate and an economy fairly unique in the US, more closely like the rest of the islands than the mainland.

But eggs .... those are not live insects, right?


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

LBussy said:


> I learn from people who are wrong every day. The only problem is most of the time that's me.


Bahahaha!!! Me too, but I wasn’t counting those. 😜


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

LBussy said:


> Yep. Makes sense I guess. They have a climate and an economy fairly unique in the US, more closely like the rest of the islands than the mainland.
> 
> But eggs .... those are not live insects, right?


Disease can come in even in eggs. Not sure about the regulations on sperm.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

LBussy said:


> But eggs .... those are not live insects, right?


Says: ALLOWED: Animal and Animal products.... Eggs..... 
I'd pretend stupid and import the eggs. LOL.
Anyway.... This is becoming silly.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

joebeewhisperer said:


> I’ll throw in 2 cents. Most folks I trust say, “Here’s what I do, here is what I used to do that lead me to what I now do.” My great grandmother said, “A dog that will bring a bone will take one.” The quickest way for me to close off what someone is saying is if they are attacking someone else’s methods, or just someone else. Do I believe that all opinions have the same validity, absolutely not. But opinions with years of experience and no attitude, that will perk up my ears.
> 
> To the OP, I wouldn’t walk into a bee club and answer a question on varroa unless I wanted to stay there until 2am. By then everyone would be calm and most would go home to bed with no change in thinking from when they walked in.
> 
> ...


Bob is one of the most humble beekeepers I know, and one of the most elite of our time. If more hobby beekeepers learned from Bob our new beekeeper retention would be much, much better


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Now that I have seen Old timer in a white bee suit I feel like his credibility points have gone down and all these years of great responses have been some type of trickery 😂


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

We all have our off days 😄


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

LBussy said:


> But eggs .... those are not live insects, right?


Depends on your definition of 'live'.

If you were to examine those eggs beneath their outer membrane, unless those eggs had been killed by being subjected to extremes of heat or cold, you'd find cells that were multiplying and differentiating - I'd say that constitutes 'live' for the purposes of this discussion.
LJ


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I was more being a smart alec, but if we are being pedantic, I wonder what the USDA considers live?

Driving right now, headed to the bee yards. Maybe I’ll research that later.

For science and all.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Bob is one of the most humble beekeepers I know, and one of the most elite of our time. If more hobby beekeepers learned from Bob our new beekeeper retention would be much, much better


Agreed. We have someone who regularly manages 1500-2500 of his own hives, and like you and your wife shares that experience in a format you can go back and reference any time.

Contrast that to a honey/nuc producer who has told customers to hang candy canes between frames in winter as it gives the bees fondant and “takes care of the mites”. I would never “out” this person because if I went to one of their yards right now and opened a box, I’d find candy canes. At least later in the season. Also a hard-working respectable person who works 2 jobs and keeps the bills paid. I’m not even convinced peppermint won’t kill a few mites.Just an illustration to the OP of how bad info gets propagated.

I hope I haven’t sent someone down the road with bad information, but I probably have at some point. It’s very tempting to have a good winter and think it was because a case of Dr Pepper cans on the porch froze and burst in Nov and the bees cleaned them up on a warm Dec 12. It’s very easy to think you have the secret ingredient to the formula universities and governments haven’t been able to solve.

To the OP (or others), try to stay at least toward the middle of the road. We all tinker a bit and many people on here do actual research with repeatable results. But wishful thinking does not produce magic bees. If it sounds kooky, it’s probably kooky.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I find that the things I think are improbable turn out to be truthful. Take swiffer sheets for instance.

I get what you mean though, I find something interesting, I research that specifically, I go down another rabbit hole, it’s all very interesting at least. It is forcing me to exercise my critical thinking skills for sure.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

LBussy said:


> I find that the things I think are improbable turn out to be truthful. Take swiffer sheets for instance.
> 
> I get what you mean though, I find something interesting, I research that specifically, I go down another rabbit hole, it’s all very interesting at least. It is forcing me to exercise my critical thinking skills for sure.


Critical thinking does need occasional shaking up and exercising. Confirmation bias is always looking for a home and it is easy to confuse the rearranging of our prejudices with critical thinking.
Good to see you exploring a wide range of options. 

As we go down the road we latch onto ideas that may be good in one sense but, in the doing, prove expensive in time, material, ergonomics or satisfaction, etc. That is hard to predict until we have been there for a while. I have not found a way of avoiding that no matter how much effort I have put into it!

In one of the Dr. Zeuss series one of his characters laments ''_ I puzzled and puzzled and puzzled some more and puzzled so much my puzzler was sore!_"


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Regarding Dr. Sharashkin- while my only frame of reference regarding his philosophy and approach are from his edits to 'Keeping Bees with a Smile', his other online writings and posted videos, I understood that he has generally had better than average overwintering success. To that end, I followed-up with him by e-mail and confirmed that his average overwintering percentage is north of 85%. 

Thus, while I can't really speak to his demeanor toward other beekeeping approaches nor his marketing strategy, I do think it is safe to say that his continued interest in swarm trapping is not predominantly guided by necessity relative to recouping significant winter mortality.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> Regarding Dr. Sharashkin- while my only frame of reference regarding his philosophy and approach are from his edits to 'Keeping Bees with a Smile', his other online writings and posted videos, I understood that he has generally had better than average overwintering success. To that end, I followed-up with him by e-mail and confirmed that his average overwintering percentage is north of 85%.
> 
> Thus, while I can't really speak to his demeanor toward other beekeeping approaches nor his marketing strategy, I do think it is safe to say that his continued interest in swarm trapping is not predominantly guided by necessity relative to recouping significant winter mortality.


As a matter of fact, Dr. Sharashkin himself is loosing swarms pretty much intentionally - he stated so.
It is basically his very favorable location that affords him wide latitude of doing what is prohibitive to me (and most others).

My long hives (largely modeled after Sharashkin hives) added not much to my survival numbers.
I should honestly admit I had some slight hope in the unique geometry and thermal properties of the extra deep, long hives.
Was not it.
No appreciable difference.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Well! I thought oldtimer was some old dude with a phunny accent. Turns out she's a hardcore beek who only wears a veil. I wonder who the noob was all buttoned up in the picture?
Thanks for sharing OT!
In the end, trust your experience. After a relatively short time keeping bees you will be able to sort out who's a gem....


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

LBussy:

To your original question, I was recently reading Dr. Connor's 'Increase Essentials' 2nd Edition.

In Chapter 6 (p. 95) Dr. Connor offers this:

_"The single largest and most important behavioral shift that needs to occur in this industry is the widespread development of vigorous, productive stocks from local survivor stocks acclimated to local conditions. These are colonies that are tolerant of varroa infestations (either naturally or from genetic material introduced from purchased breeders) and are successful in all other ways: wintering ability, spring buildup, honey production, disease resistance (hygienic behavior) and are workable under unfavorable weather conditions. These local stocks should be propagated by local beekeepers."_


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## Boondocks (Sep 16, 2020)

Amibusiness said:


> In the end, trust your experience. After a relatively short time keeping bees you will be able to sort out who's a gem....


But how much money and time will one go through to get to that point? This can be an expensive hobby or career if a person ends up selling honey or bees at a loss.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Litsinger said:


> These are colonies that are tolerant of varroa infestations (either naturally or from genetic material introduced from purchased breeders) and are successful in all other ways: wintering ability, spring buildup, honey production, disease resistance (hygienic behavior) and are workable under unfavorable weather conditions. These local stocks should be propagated by local beekeepers.


All due respect to Dr. Connor but has he not just described the perfect bee?

_Varroa tolerant
good wintering
spring buildup
good honey production
disease resistance
easy to work even when the weather is bad_

That is the dream. We are all trying to achieve it. If such a bee even exists I'll pay big bucks for a queen.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> All due respect to Dr. Connor but has he not just described the perfect bee?
> 
> _Varroa tolerant
> good wintering
> ...


I'll settle for 4 out o 6 (kinda like 2 out of 3 ain't bad). I can help the bees with the 'varroa tolerant' part easily enough, and I dont work bees when the weather is to bad. But the other 4 would be fantastic if they could all be had in one bee.

The other thing I'd like to mix in, 'low tendancy to swarm'.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, often overlooked. Where I am anyhow, swarming season is the busiest time, when the beekeepers are maxed out time wise, it is how many bees you can manage at that time of year, determines how many bees you can manage. In my view a non swarming bee would be the most valuable trait. You'd just pump your hives up in spring to massive populations, throw boxes on, and wait for the honey to roll in. 
Could probably run twice as many hives.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Yes boondacks. But its the same with anything: dont spend more money (or time) than you can afford to loose. If you are the spending type you can use a bunch of new (useless?) equipment (like flow hive?). If you are not the spending type you can make everything you need from things most folks in the country have lying around or in easy (dumpster?) reach. The OP has certainly spent enough time researching. And has/will spend whatever he wants on equipment. Now once he is in his bees next year he will soon find out whom to trust.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Litsinger said:


> To your original question, I was recently reading Dr. Connor's 'Increase Essentials' 2nd Edition.


I don't much like Larry Conner. It's not that I don't rate his knowledge and experience, it's rather more that I don't much like anyone who is (to use modern terminology) an 'Internet Influencer'. The term 'influencer' really sticks in my craw ...
Writing beekeeping books and articles is one thing, but becoming a publisher of beekeeping books as well - imo, that's 'crossing the line'. Reminds me of Amos Root: opinionated beekeeper, editor of a beekeeping journal, *and* the principle manufacturer of beekeeping woodenware at that time. A 19th Century 'influencer'. Talk about 'conflicts of interest' ...



> In Chapter 6 (p. 95) Dr. Connor offers this:
> _"The single largest and most important behavioral shift that needs to occur in this* industry* is the *widespread development* of vigorous, productive stocks from* local survivor stocks* acclimated to *local conditions*. [...] These local stocks should be propagated by *local beekeepers*."_


Litsinger, thanks for posting that quote. 

Is it me, or is there a flaw in that reasoning ? Talk of 'industry' and 'widespread development' suggests a large-scale perspective, yet talk of 'local stocks', 'local conditions', 'local beekeepers', all suggest (certainly in my mind) a small-scale perspective. I know this doesn't automatically follow, but that's what the above quote is saying to me.

Indeed, talking in terms of a beekeeping 'industry' is quite possibly where the key difference in attitudes between large-scale commercial operators and the side-liner or hobbyist lies.

The term 'industry' has been creeping into our vocabulary for some time now - people now talk of the farming industry, the fishing industry, the hospitality industry, the leisure industry ...
As the use of language influences our perception of the world: our attitudes and our behaviour, can't say that I'm all that enthusiastic about this trend,

.... off the soap-box now. 
LJ


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I guess it's the "influencer" thing that rubs me the wrong way? It's one thing to share knowledge, but the endless books that he writes and sells put me off a little bit. The end of the presentation (from 55:33 to 1:12:00) was pretty much solid about his books, even when he answered questions the last slide which remained on the screen was an ad for wicwas .com. 

Maybe this is an academia thing though? I'm not sure if he is/was a professor or not but I do know they "publish or die" so maybe that stuck with him from his time in school.

Now, I LOVE books. There is nothing better than to sit in the quiet Saturday morning reading a book and sipping coffee before my wife gets up and turns every light on and then the TVs. The little "pamphlet" books are somewhat annoying to me though. It takes what could be a webpage or two and sells it for $30. I'm not mad at a person for making a living, but the information should be unique in some way.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Simplistic, wishful thinking advice, but questionable self serving promotion. Wouldnt it be nice if were generally possible. "_*widespread development* of vigorous, productive stocks from* local survivor stocks*_". Seems like a total contradiction! I dont see much original thinking in his style though I only have one of his books.

People have been hounding Michael Palmer for a long while to write a book; that would be worth reading!

The old advice; Be wary the advice of interested (invested) parties!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Whew... tough crowd.

In the immortal words of Plutarch- _'To find fault is easy; to do better may be difficult.'_


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I hope I don't sound like I am finding fault - Dr. Connor has probably lost more knowledge on post-it notes than I currently possess. In general, I wonder when someone's efforts seem centered around selling books rather than sharing knowledge. Testing and gaining knowledge cost money, Dr. Oliver's efforts to that end are commendable in their simplicity and openness.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Litsinger said:


> Whew... tough crowd.
> 
> In the immortal words of Plutarch- _'To find fault is easy; to do better may be difficult.'_


I think the reason for the push-back is that he is stating the obvious as though it is a great revelation that he is bestowing upon us mere mortals. 

Alex


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

LBussy said:


> Testing and gaining knowledge cost money, Dr. Oliver's efforts to that end are commendable in their simplicity and openness.


Technically, Randy Oliver has nothing above the BS in Biology degree (pretty sure, but do correct me).
However, his efforts are priceless IMO.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I did not mean to imply that they were connected. I was using Randy's name and efforts as an example of something which was done using funding from the community and then freely shared. It was the other end of the spectrum from someone selling books.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

AHudd said:


> I think the reason for the push-back is that he is stating the obvious as though it is a great revelation that he is bestowing upon us mere mortals.


Fair enough criticism, Alex.

My main objection is the tendency to insinuate that someone is a huckster if they have a profit motivation. While there may be many legitimate critiques of Dr. Connor's marketing strategy, I am unaware of any literature or presentations that he has published that promote aberrant beekeeping approaches or unduly seek to persuade the audience to buy into a proprietary system to his exclusive benefit. So as someone who provides sound advice regarding the principles of good bee husbandry, this is of value to many.

And just for the sake of playing 'Devil's Advocate' (I have no axe to grind), is it safe to assume that his assertion that, '... _widespread development of vigorous, productive stocks from local survivor stocks acclimated to local conditions ...'_ is ubiquitous?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> Fair enough criticism, Alex.
> 
> My main objection is the tendency to insinuate that someone is a huckster if they have a profit motivation. While there may be many legitimate critiques of Dr. Connor's marketing strategy, I am unaware of any literature or presentations that he has published that promote aberrant beekeeping approaches or unduly seek to persuade the audience to buy into a proprietary system to his exclusive benefit. So as someone who provides sound advice regarding the principles of good bee husbandry, this is of value to many.
> 
> And just for the sake of playing 'Devil's Advocate' (I have no axe to grind), is it safe to assume that his assertion that, '... _widespread development of vigorous, productive stocks from local survivor stocks acclimated to local conditions ...'_ is ubiquitous?


Russ,
A couple questions
Who do you know with good to excellent profit motive that is not in any way a huckster?
And what Unique information has Larry C provided, free or for a price?

Seems to me we all have profit motive, I certainly do not have a loss motive.
IMO some find selling information easier than selling product, again not in itself an issue.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> some find selling information easier than selling product, again not in itself an issue.


Selling information (or resemblance of it) is actually akin to selling the shovels to the gold-miners.
In the end, it is where the real money is to made - in the shovels, not the gold.

Of course, the hard part is to convince others that the info is worth something (one never knows).

Years ago while looking to buy my first (and only) house, I bought a "special" database of the housing market - $70 or so about, at the time.
Was supposedly some "insider info", blah, blah...
Money wasted (as the data was not representing the real situation on the ground - as it turned out).
My spouse still reminds me of it time to time.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> And what Unique information has Larry C provided, free or for a price?


Thanks, GG. In my opinion, this gets to the crux of my point. It seems (at least from my perspective) that Dr. Connor is providing sound (albeit not groundbreaking) beekeeping information and is fortunate enough to make a living doing so.

The original inquiries were (and I paraphrase for brevity): 

_'Is Larry Connor trustworthy'_? and;
_'What are his thoughts on TF'_?

To-date I find no demonstrative information that suggests he is untrustworthy in regards to his beekeeping counsel, and what little insight he has provided on the subject suggests that he is at least not antagonistic towards TF beekeeping.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

You are very diplomatic Russ.  I have a book on queen rearing that is around 75 years old by Leonard Snelgrove. He is better know for his Snelgrove double screen division board. I also have L. Connor's book on queen rearing and dont see much new ground broken but the context of the language is easier for the modern scholar of beekeeping. Connors books are just typical of the type and I dont think he deserves any special dissing or reverence either. One of the biggest chores in writing a book is compending the references used. The digitized web now makes that much easier. I am sure you have enough exposure and access to beekeeping info and the literary skill to put together a decent book on beekeeping.

Just for a bit different flavored book with a bit of irreverence toward the establishment and fancy virtue signalling yuppy equipment, I think little john and greg V should put together an interesting book. What should be its title!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> I think little john and greg V should put together an interesting book. What should be its title!


I entertain an idea of translating some worthy open source material into English - yep, totally unconventional stuff.
Don't know much to write my own.
But I am young still. LOL


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

At times, this is like sitting in the barber shop and hearing people jaw at each other.

Love it!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> ... I dont think he deserves any special dissing or reverence either.


Frank: I think that is fair. Largely trustworthy resource for beekeeping principles- accessible to 'Average Joe' beekeeper.



crofter said:


> Just for a bit different flavored book with a bit of irreverence toward the establishment and fancy virtue signalling yuppy equipment, I think little john and greg V should put together an interesting book. What should be its title!


Great idea! This post made me smile. How about _'East meets West- the Global Guide to All Things Beekeeping that Cannot be Purchased from any Major Beekeeping Supply House (_written in 19th century English with a smattering of Russian)_._

Offered in jest and goodwill and the hopes that it is received in the spirit of having a little fun. I give you all permission to poke fun at my expense anytime...


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Litsinger said:


> Fair enough criticism, Alex.
> 
> My main objection is the tendency to insinuate that someone is a huckster if they have a profit motivation. While there may be many legitimate critiques of Dr. Connor's marketing strategy, I am unaware of any literature or presentations that he has published that promote aberrant beekeeping approaches or unduly seek to persuade the audience to buy into a proprietary system to his exclusive benefit. So as someone who provides sound advice regarding the principles of good bee husbandry, this is of value to many.
> 
> And just for the sake of playing 'Devil's Advocate' (I have no axe to grind), is it safe to assume that his assertion that, '... _widespread development of vigorous, productive stocks from local survivor stocks acclimated to local conditions ...'_ is ubiquitous?


To be fair, the only thing I know about the man is what has been said here.
I made my comment based on the paragraph you provided and your exhortation, "Tough crowd". 
I based my comment on the words offered, it was not meant to be an indictment of the man. His statement is somewhat similar to me proclaiming to the person standing next to me, " Wow, it sure is hot today". 

Yes, I believe his assertion is ubiquitous. This is what beekeepers have been doing for centuries, even before the printing press was invented and even before Al Gore invented the internets. That is, until Varroa crashed the party.
I am not critical of the TF movement for it is a worthy pursuit. I am critical of those that take advantage of the wide eyed newbies that really believe they are going to save the bees by making a purchase only to watch their bees disappear as fast as their money because someone sold them a dream. Their money would help more if donated to someone like Randy Oliver. 
It seems as though most of these folks have something to sell, whether it is books, SC bees or every imaginable concoction to control mites. When whatever they have sold, fails, they have the built-in excuse that, "Well, they must not be able to survive in your location", or even worse they blame it on the lack of skills of the buyer ensuring another sale to the disillusioned newbie. I have lost count of how many people have told me that wax moths killed their bees. I also have lost count of the people, though far fewer, that have thanked me for explaining to them about what was killing their treatment free bees. I almost forgot to include those that ask,"What's a mite".
Speaking of concoctions, there is a fellow that sells a lot of honey, that claims to control mites with powdered sugar and garlic. I think he just doesn't want to tell people what he is really putting in his hives. There are two more that sell a lot of honey that claim to be treatment free. They don't have any bees, so I guess technically, it is true. They get their honey in barrels from the Dakotas.
Just this past Saturday a man approached my booth and began quizzing me about the different colors of my honey. As I was explaining it was because I harvested at different times throughout the season in order to keep the flavors separate, hence the different colors of the honey, he interrupted me to ask, "Just how local are you?" I pulled out NASA's bee forager map to show him where my hives were located, relative to where we were, he interrupted me again with, "You haven't answered my question", to which I reflexively responded, "I am trying to, if you'll be quiet long enough to let me". As I again began showing him the different areas, he interrupted me yet again to tell me not to tell customers anything about pollen. When I asked him what did he care what I told people, he then told me he was a honey vendor at this market as well and kept repeating, "You don't need to tell people anything". I finally told him "I don't care what he does or doesn't tell his customers, but I would continue to answer any questions they have to the best of my ability, because an educated customer doesn't mind paying for a premium product". He finally huffed off with a departing, over the shoulder shout that I was selling my cut comb too cheap. I guess I hurt his feelings.

He claimed to be a lifelong Beek, but he didn't know much about honey to have spent a lifetime in the bees. My wife told me she thought he must be selling honey he had bought somewhere else because he didn't want to answer questions from customers.

The point of all this is it seems one can't swing a dead cat without hitting a huckster nowadays.

I guess I went on a rant. Oh well, it sure is hot today!

Alex


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

AHudd said:


> Yes, I believe his assertion is ubiquitous. This is what beekeepers have been doing for centuries, even before the printing press was invented and even before Al Gore invented the internets. That is, until Varroa crashed the party.


Thanks, Alex. Good points. I think this is where context is important- Dr. Connor is seemingly encouraging the industry as a whole to seek out and propagate local survivor stocks in our current environment. It is to this point I suggest that his advice is a bit novel. Am I missing the mark?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The industry as a whole revolves around the big pollination contracts, does it not. How would they be susceptible to conversion to local survivors; their bees get trucked all over the continent!
. I guess though that a fairly high percentage come from _local_ conditons close to the Weavers operation and a few other similar mega producers of queens. It has been fairly well represented as futile to maintain any suvivability without ongoing selection in addition to necessary culling to maintain any superior tendencies. The ubiquitous Bell curve shows that reversion to the mean is the default with bees. The population at the top of the curve does not tend to predominate. That seems to be the nature of the beast that has kept bees from exceeding the carrying capacity of its environments. Local adaptations do occur but they carry a penalty in other geographic or operational environments. Read Randy Olivers data on the amount of selection pressure is necessary to achieve even a bit of superiority and how near impossible to stabilize the characteristics except in controlled environment.

Wouldn't it be nice if.......... 

Like AHudd, I think a lot of bee literature is designed to instill hope and sell something; books, equipment, speaking engagements, bees, etc., In that it is very successful.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> The industry as a whole revolves around the big pollination contracts, does it not. How would they be susceptible to conversion to local survivors; their bees get trucked all over the continent!


No arguments from me, Frank. It would indeed represent a seismic shift in the industry at-large to both focus on local adaptation and then jealously guard it- at least in the lower 48.

That said, I don't think it inherently wrong to be aspirational in our thinking, having enough confidence in the intelligence of our audience to sort out poetry from prose. As you often (and wisely) point out, 'caveat emptor'!

And, I am heartened by programs such as the LVG program at UoG that show the power and promise of regional cooperatives in making appreciable gains in a fairly short period of time- they are a proof of concept that are well worth giving consideration to, at least in areas not inundated by a continued influx of transient genetics.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Litsinger said:


> Thanks, Alex. Good points. I think this is where context is important- Dr. Connor is seemingly encouraging the industry as a whole to seek out and propagate local survivor stocks in our current environment. It is to this point I suggest that his advice is a bit novel. Am I missing the mark?


I don't believe there are as many areas with _local survival stocks_ that people think. I have not been able to find any bees around here that are surviving without being managed. I have lost numerous swarms before I started using Snelgrove boards. I have looked for bees in trees and buildings on my place, my neighbors and in the National Forest. I know where two bee trees are in the NF that have not been repopulated in the last ten years. 
I have friends and relatives in the logging business that said they would certainly call me if they come upon a bee tree. 
There was an apiary about three mile from me that has died out after the owners stopped managing it. My understanding was that they primarily sold bees.
I believe people catch a swarm or see a bee tree that becomes repopulated and they want so much to believe the bees are wild, but I believe they are swarms from managed hives or bees that have abandoned a poorly managed hive. On my way to town in either direction from my place I can count probably thirty hives that never change. I never see anyone tending to them and the configuration never changes.
I believe there are bees around here, but I do not think they are survivors of more than a year or two. If they are actual survivors, they are not gaining any ground. 
If I find any bee trees or bees in any of the buildings around here I will monitor them to see if they survive as a parent colony for two years before trying to get eggs from which to raise Queens. There are many out buildings and abandoned homes around here for bees to live in, but so far I have not found or heard of one, no not one.

Alex


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

AHudd said:


> I don't believe there are as many areas with _local survival stocks_ that people think.


You might be right, Alex. No doubt a sustained focus on promoting locally-adapted survival stock on an industry level would necessitate a colossal paradigm shift that would likely involve more than a few growing pains, and possibly a wholesale collapse of the current system.

But I digress- I'm afraid we've strayed far afield from the OP's original inquiry, but I have enjoyed the discussion. Thanks for your feedback.

Russ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

crofter said:


> Just for a bit different flavored book with a bit of irreverence toward the establishment and fancy virtue signalling yuppy equipment,* I think little john and greg V should put together an interesting book. What should be its title!*


Thanks for the suggestion. 

For a while now I've been looking for a catchy title for an article I'm about to present to a British beekeeping journal for publication - how about "*Different Hives for Different Lives*" ? Jeez - missed my vocation - should be writing slogans for Colonel Sanders. LOL

With regard to that earlier quote - I rather suspect that if I were a major player, either in honey tonnage, pollination services, or knocking out queens by the thousand, then my primary focus would inevitably be on product or fulfilling contract obligations, rather than seeking out feral survivor stock or it's equivalent. That is, I'd be focused far more on the economic health of the business and the welfare of my employees, rather than on wider ecological considerations. It's not that "I don't care", it's rather more about establishing priorities.

Yes, we've strayed a fair bit from the original question - covered some interesting ground though. 
LJ


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Litsinger said:


> I'm afraid we've strayed far afield from the OP's original inquiry


Not at all - my intent was to gain knowledge. To that end, I've learned:

Bees are doomed
We're doomed
Anyone selling anything is a huckster
Did I miss anything? 😄


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Perhaps my past experience is coloring my outlook. I was sued by a builder once. I knew he was lying, he knew he was lying and the homeowner knew he was lying. He said to not take it so personally, it was only business.
The very idea that lying for financial gain somehow makes it acceptable is preposterous to me.

Alex


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Allow me to make an observation: Bulk rearing of queens is "easy" for the pollinator industry. That being the case, allowing what is basically a new colony to build each spring is a no-brainer. If the numbers are correct, that 75% of the bees are in California for the almond crop, and that's what is shaping our "industry," then things will not change on the meta scale.

So, local groups, local stock, local efforts, but _local_ will remain the operative word since beekeeping is local. Therefore the only "improvements" we can make are on the micro scale. And I am intentionally using the ironic quotes on "improvements" because these things we find important are not necessarily important to the people who manage that 75% share.

That's how it looks to me, anyway.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

LBussy said:


> Not at all - my intent was to gain knowledge. To that end, I've learned:
> 
> Bees are doomed
> We're doomed
> ...


Oversimplification with malice!  As Clyderoad suggests in his signature line, there is lots of gray between black and white. Between sellers motivation and our own sometimes wishful thinking, the exact best answer is elusive game.

LBussy; you posted while I was typing. Sounds like a fair assessment of the situation.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

I see everyone has harvested and buttoned down much of their operation for winter. 

This is very much a barber shop vibe, ..... or at least barber shops on TV. We don't have those fancy things in the sticks.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

You guys don't go to hair salons? What kind of heathens are you?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

LBussy said:


> You guys don't go to hair salons? What kind of heathens are you?


You will have to ask my wife about my pedgree! She has been cutting my hair on the kitchen chair for over 40 years. A few too many times I left on a Saturday afternoon for a hair cut and came home without one! My batting record has improved.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> You will have to ask my wife about my pedgree! She has been cutting my hair on the kitchen chair for over 40 years.


I am going to have to copy/paste/email this to my spouse.
The potential savings go onto hundreds of bucks and more over time - she just as well could spend those $$$ on herself.
I don't care how I look anymore - no one sees me (and I am too old to care).


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> I am going to have to copy/paste/email this to my spouse.
> The potential savings go onto hundreds of bucks and more over time - she just as well could spend those $$$ on herself.
> I don't care how I look anymore - no one sees me (and I am too old to care).


we do the boys and I , 3 cuts a month 20 ish bucks each here. Mom gets the clipper out and zoom zoom zoom done.

GG


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

My boss pays his wife, it disappears into whatever mysterious place wives put money.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> we do the boys and I , 3 cuts a month 20 ish bucks each here. Mom gets the clipper out and zoom zoom zoom done.
> 
> GG


I have been doing my boys for many, many years (still do the trimming to keep them away from the Great Clips for as long as possible).
But no one does me.
She would not want to practice on me.

PS: my original "Made in USA" Wahl kit was the best ever ever $20 investment I have done - about 20 years ago now and still going as is.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

crofter said:


> Just for a bit different flavored book with a bit of *irreverence toward the establishment and fancy virtue signalling yuppy equipment*, I think little john and greg V should put together an interesting book. What should be its title!


I think you nailed the title in your post (bolded it).


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I had to go back and look at what was the title of this thread. Re. little john and gregs methods it quickly becomes obvious they are not trying to sell a bill of goods! Someones motives are not always evident and our assessment inaccurate, but motivation is one of the things I put on the scales. A tool I have used in getting the feel of posters on a new forum is to backtrack and see where they have been.
A poster here years back by the username TalonRedding had for a signature line "_A man is worth just as much as the things about which he busies himself- Marcus Aurelius" _That stuck with me.

Go back and see the discussions initiated, and how they handled themselves. See how they evolved. Did they come in hat in hand or did they not even bother to kick the dirt off their boots. Were they seeking truth, pushing an agenda, or merely virtue signalling


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

LBussy said:


> Maybe this is an academia thing though? I'm not sure if he is/was a professor or not but I do know they "publish or die" so maybe that stuck with him from his time in school.


I can answer that one for you. Nope he is not what we call faculty/academic at the university setting. He does have a phd in entomology which in my mind impacts his interactions and writing style. he does love to interview beekeepers and write so i think the desire to be in the publishing industry was a natural fit for him. along with that his name became more widespread in the bee journals in the recent decade even though that was in the later years of his career.

he was heavily influenced by queen rearing yearly in his career at dadants and that is no doubt a basis for his thoughts on local stock selection. but its not like he was the only person pushing that concept. heck its been a theme with the backyard crowd for a decade now. and i'm as deep into that theme as the next guy as i primarily keep bees to sell nucs locally.  but i greatly differ from Larry on the concept of local stock as involved on the leading edge of creating what would eventually become vsh. so i have a pretty good understanding of what it takes to maintain a stock which is in fact super complex as was noted in other parts of this thread and in many locales it is a tough road particularly for the hobbyist crowd without the ability to control mating. 

larry isnt what i'd call a treatment free guy by any means. however he was super hopeful that area clubs, etc could maintain a survivor type of stock and also propagate and disseminate it. but to my knowledge he hasnt done any significant queen rearing in last few years and believe he even sold off his insemination equipment. 

in my mind larry's expertise is on the scientific end of bees--- particularly things like drone congregation, mating, insemination.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

My wife was a hair-stylist when we became a couple in 1978. I haven't been to a barber since. 

That said; I get it cut only once every couple years, keeping it long enough to tie it back. The wife? She still goes to a stylist.....So, we save a lot on my complete lack of outside cuts but she can get hers cut every other month or so. It's what works for us.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Lee Bussy said:


> I was watching some videos posted by NY Bee Wellness, specifically one which was a presentation by Dr. Lawrence John Connor.


I noted in his most recent presentation to NY Bee Wellness, Dr. Connor takes quite a lot of time to discuss varroa management, and offers the most transparent opinion I have heard from him regarding TF breeding from survivor stock starting at the 1:19:30 mark.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Saw the same one - it was a very different approach than the first one I saw.


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