# foundationless frames



## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

no, yes, yes


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

Yes- NO- NO==JMO


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Deeps yes, mediums no. JMO


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

Don't need to wire them and you don't need a started strip, IF the empty frame can be placed next to a drawn out one. If starting a box with just empty frames, the bees will need some type of guide like a starter strip or wedge of some type. I extracted 50 new foundationless deeps last season with about three blowouts. Granted the extractor was hand cranked and I started real slow.


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## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

N-Y-Y also. Bees like foundationless frames and mine get drawn perfectly with just a starter strip.


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## Pete O (Jul 13, 2013)

I've found that a starter strip moves things along much more quickly. Wire the deeps, not the mediums. Not an expert but these work nicely for me.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Matt903 said:


> I extracted 50 new foundationless deeps last season with about three blowouts. Granted the extractor was hand cranked and I started real slow.


I would consider that 3 to many blowouts, and precisely the reason I have lost any interest in foundationless frames. I experimented a bit last summer to see which would be built faster, and the final conclusion was, they built the PF-100 at the same rate as the foundationless and made it mostly drone size, so there was no real advantage, with many disadvantages.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Not necessary, it helps, you can but first year they tend to blow out - especially deeps even if you wired them.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

grozzie2 said:


> I would consider tha*t 3 to many blowouts*, and precisely the reason I have lost any interest in foundationless frames. I experimented a bit last summer to see which would be built faster, and the final conclusion was, they built the PF-100 at the same rate as the foundationless and made it mostly drone size, so there was no real advantage, with many disadvantages.


 IMHO "that statement comes from not yet having slung enough" again this is MHO 

Yes you will get blowouts with and without foundation 
However with foundation You will work more and pay more 
That is a Fact 
As far as will bees draw comb faster on an open frame or a man made foundation 
Given equal bees and food(flow) the foundation-less wins hands down

All the above is of course is not only MHO but my personal observation 
And other beeks I know and trust


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

Starter strip and crosswires. Takes all the whoops out of the picture.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you need to wire these frames at all ? 
I don't use wire but I don't use deeps either.

>Or is the only thing you need is a starter strip ? 
I'll start with what I like the least. A wax bead in a groove is almost no guide at all. In order to be effective a guide needs to protrude at least 1/4" (6mm). Other than that I like all of them fine, but I like the durability of the beveled top bar and I think the comb is attached a bit better. Next I'd probably go for the wood strip. Last I'd go for the starter strips as they sometimes get hot and fall out if the bees haven't used them yet. But I also feed empty frames into brood nests all the time as I have a lot of old frames around. Bottom line is, I do whatever is the easiest at the time.

>And they can be extracted this way ?
Yes. I extract them all the time. Just make sure they are attached on all four sides and the wax isn't so new that it's still soft, like putty. Once the wax is mature and the comb is attached at least some on all four sides, it extracts fine. Of course you should always be gentle with any wax combs (wired or not) when extracting.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

tommyt said:


> IMHO "that statement comes from not yet having slung enough" again this is MHO


I think it's more to do with all of our frames that go into the extractor are PF-500 series plastic frames.


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## PaBill (Apr 4, 2014)

Thanks everyone for your experiance, i will be using medium frames, should have mentioned that earlier. The reason for my initial question was, i just purchased 23 used medium boxes from a guy going from 10 frame to 8 frame and wanted to spend my money wisely on frames and liked the idea of foundationless cost wise compared to plastic or for that matter adding foundation to the frames. Generally how long does it take wax to mature? My 3 hives have all made it through the harsh Pa winter so far and hoping for the best and to expand..


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## yukonjack (Mar 12, 2015)

Does the starter strip need to run the full length of the frame?
I'm converting some grooved fames that previously held foundation.
I've got a bunch of wood paint stir-sticks, and I'm wondering if I can just split them in half and center them in the frame without worrying about applying a strip the full length of the groove.
Should I fill the bottom groove with glue to approximate a solid bottom bar?

(medium 8-frame bodies)


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

yukonjack said:


> Does the starter strip need to run the full length of the frame
> 
> (medium 8-frame bodies)


 No


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## rmaxwell (Apr 23, 2014)

I split paint sticks in half and use one per two medium frames. A little Titebond III glue and half a paint stick in the top groove and it's ready for the hive. I don't do anything with the bottom groove. Pretty cheap and simple imo.


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## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

rmaxwell said:


> I split paint sticks in half and use one per two medium frames. A little Titebond III glue and half a paint stick in the top groove and it's ready for the hive. I don't do anything with the bottom groove. Pretty cheap and simple imo.


It may be cheap, but we all pay in the end. Why is paint so expensive :scratch: Someone running all 10 frame equipment, foundationless, that could be 20 sticks per hive. 10 hives, 200 paint sticks. I've seen this written several times on beesource. Why not just get wedge top bars and turn the wedge on its side? Lots safer than cutting sticks in half too.


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## yukonjack (Mar 12, 2015)

Thanks for the help folks - one half of one stick per frame it is.
I'll definitely buy proper foundationless frames for next year (if I can expand).
Thanks again


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does the starter strip need to run the full length of the frame

Bees tend to want to curve the ends of the comb. If you are going to leave a gap, then leave it in the center not on the ends. But why leave a gap? Yes, run it the full length of the frame.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

PAHunter62 said:


> paint sticks. I've seen this written several times on beesource. Why not just get wedge top bars and turn the wedge on its side? Lots safer than cutting sticks in half too.


Not ever having done foundation-less, A paint stick is half as thick than most of the wedges that come with frames. Do bees like a finer point to draw from?


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I have pretty good success just breaking out the wedge and leaving the step for them to build on. It doesn't take much.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

Is there a good way to encourage them to draw all the way to the bottom of a frame? They nicely leave a bee space around the bottom and sides. What would they do with a narrow frame bottom, like a skewer or vertical 1/8" x 1/4" strip instead of the normal bottom?


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Same here. Would love to know


texanbelchers said:


> Is there a good way to encourage them to draw all the way to the bottom of a frame? They nicely leave a bee space around the bottom and sides. What would they do with a narrow frame bottom, like a skewer or vertical 1/8" x 1/4" strip instead of the normal bottom?


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## rmaxwell (Apr 23, 2014)

I didn't realize I was driving the cost of paint so high. I always thought it was (among other things) more likely the folks that ordered paint and didn't pick it up. Then the store had to sell it at the "oops" rate for other beekeepers to buy at a bargain. 

I don't like breaking out the wedge and nailing or gluing it in place. It's much easier, in my opinion, to purchase grooved top/grooved bottom frames, split paint sticks and glue them in the top groove with titebond. Walmart, Lowe's, Home Depot, Sherwin Williams, etc. all have paint stick that are different thicknesses. Some provide a more snug fit than others. However, if you are using titebond and you turn the frame upside down and leave it a few minutes until the glue sets, it doesn't matter how thick the paint stick is. 

Everyone has their own preferences and reasons for doing things. Some are similar to mine and some are not. In the end, it's all good so long as it works for you and doesn't harm anyone else.


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## rmaxwell (Apr 23, 2014)

texanbelchers said:


> Is there a good way to encourage them to draw all the way to the bottom of a frame? They nicely leave a bee space around the bottom and sides. What would they do with a narrow frame bottom, like a skewer or vertical 1/8" x 1/4" strip instead of the normal bottom?


Someone else may have a better answer with more experience but, the only times I've had that happen were during a light flow. Once the flow picked up, they finished pulling to the four sides of the frames. They often leave a communication hole at the corner of mine though.


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

Run the strips the whole length as mr bush suggested. They will curve the end otherwise


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

If you haven't tried foundationless before, start small and see if you like it. If you don't have a lot of drawn comb, get some foundation as well to intersperse and somewhat limit the mess they can make. Plan to keep a close eye on how they draw the frames out. Curving at the end of frames seems to always happen unless you put the foundationless frame between two frames of capped brood or honey. When it happens, you will have to get in there and bend it back.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I left the feeding shim on one of my hives longer than I should have. The bees made beautiful comb and attached it to the SIC. It was too soft to stay in a frame with just rubber bands so I called a friend with more experience. He told me to drill holes in the top bar and use skewers. That worked great for holding the soft comb in the empty frames. Could that be used in a foundationless frame instead of paint sticks or wire?


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## Vince (Jun 22, 2014)

I stick these in the groove of the top bar and hold tight with glue:
http://www.amazon.com/Cornell-10212...id=1427832143&sr=8-1&keywords=popsicle+sticks
$5.00 for 1000. They do not drive up the cost of paint.

Vince


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## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

LOL, true rmaxwell. It's all operating expense that someone is paying for, and it's not going to be the supplier. Anyway, back to the thread subject.

Here is what I have tried:

- Foundation starter strip glued in with a wax tube fastener. Time consuming. Down the road, if you were going to cull old comb and clean up/resuse the frame - lots of extra work if you were going to use the same approach again. Not a fan, will never do this again.

- Used groove top bars and cut a strip of wood to friction fit into the groove. Used a little titebond to secure. I liked these, but takes a little time to cut the strips. Need to setup saw for safety. Zero clearance insert pretty much required on the table saw to support the thin strips. Featherboards and good push block system make this approach easier and safer. If you try this, check a strip from time to time for fit. If your fence moves at all they can be too wide to fit the groove.

- Wedge style top bar, break the wedge, turn it up 90 degrees, and a few brads to secure. Also use some titebond to secure into place. They worked pretty much as good as the wood strip above. 

- Kelley foundationless frames. Just ok for me, was not a big fan. The second and third options above worked better for me. Might be more that I did not have a free ship option for these frames, but I did get some to try from a local beekeeper.

You really only need about an eighth of an inch of starter strip hanging down for them to get started. I have not found a trick to get the frames drawn consistently to the bottom bar either. I used several NUCs during the flow to build out lots of foundationless brood comb last spring. Not much drone comb was produced. However, new frames placed into large production colonies produced larger cell comb for drone and/or honey storage. I run all medium frames and have not run wire or fishing line for support. For deeps, I think you would want something. I do extract them without much trouble. Just have to start slow. If you have frames that are not attached to the bottom and is not seasoned comb, I do them tangentially for the support. I do have a couple blow outs each year, but not that big a deal. 

Good luck.


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