# Looks like my bees swarmed



## JoeBeek (May 28, 2016)

Hi all - I'm a newbeek, in my first year. I installed my first package in late may, and the bees have been doing fine through the summer. Had tons of bees in the hive a couple weeks ago. I started preparing for winter, so I put a reducer on the entrance, and pushed the follower board close to the last top bar with comb on it to make the hive more snug. Maybe this was premature. I looked through the viewing window a couple days ago, and there were many less bees than before. When I would look through the window before, you could hardly see the combs because there were so many bees. I opened the hive yesterday and I would say there are less than half as many bees. I'm really bummed out, but I want this to be a learning experience. Isn't it too late in the season for a swarm? Thanks for any input.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Have you tested or treated varroa?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

JoeBeek said:


> I opened the hive yesterday and I would say there are less than half as many bees. I'm really bummed out, but I want this to be a learning experience. Isn't it too late in the season for a swarm?


yes, a swarm is not very likely this late in the season. did you pull and inspect frames yesterday?


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

That's not what the data says, May and Oct are the 2 highest months for swarm, according to Dr Jamie Ellis from the Florida Bee Lab, it's in his Bee Biology lecture on youtube


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The answer to "did it swarm" is inside the hive. Inspect it and look for queen cells. If it swarmed yesterday or Thursday then there'd likely be capped cells in there still. That or evidence of newly emerged queen (s).


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

DavidZ said:


> That's not what the data says, May and Oct are the 2 highest months for swarm, according to Dr Jamie Ellis from the Florida Bee Lab, it's in his Bee Biology lecture on youtube


That might be so in Florida....and maybe some areas with an October nectar flow....but not so here. April and May here.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

It's nationwide data not florida. it's bee biology.
no matter...
fact is that bees swarm when they need.
whether it's AK or FL


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

DavidZ said:


> whether it's AK or FL


It's difficult to believe that Jamie Ellis is suggesting that the swarm dates in Florida and Maine are the same.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

beemandan said:


> That might be so in Florida....and maybe some areas with an October nectar flow....but not so here. April and May here.




yep. looks like athens is just around the corner from your average first frost so not exactly prime swarming time. smart colonies will have their winter preps made by now, i.e. sufficient stores and an appropriate number of long lived (diutinus) workers reared for winter clustering.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Must I watch the entire fifty minute video....or can you tell me about where it might be?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

DavidZ said:


> It's nationwide data not florida. it's bee biology.
> no matter...
> fact is that bees swarm when they need.
> whether it's AK or FL


well that's new to me. :scratch:
May and October, no matter the latitude.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

it starts about 34:00.

dr. ellis is making the point the swarming is most highly associated with seasonal nectar availability.

he prefaces the presentation of the histogram with "this is a hyptothetical nectar flow *where i'm from* in the united states".

it looks like florida may have a small blip in nectar flow in october, but i think david's interpretation may be off.



beemandan said:


> It's difficult to believe that Jamie Ellis is suggesting that the swarm dates in Florida and Maine are the same.


of course he's not.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Brazilian Pepper no doubt creates some October swarming conditions in Florida. Not sure I've ever seen a swarm up north that late, as October honey flows come around about as often as Halley's Comet.


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## Santos (Mar 21, 2010)

I had a swarm going off 14 October last year, Sweden. Can't tell anybody here, they wouldn't believe me. It was a small aug split I had been feeding continuously for some time. They got a big hatch, the day was warm and off they went, despite absolutely no chance to survive.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Santos said:


> I had a swarm going off 14 October last year, Sweden. Can't tell anybody here, they wouldn't believe me. It was a small aug split I had been feeding continuously for some time. They got a big hatch, the day was warm and off they went, despite absolutely no chance to survive.


it's very believable santos. providing continuous feed confused the colony into thinking there was a major nectar flow underway and thus prime conditions for swarming.

joebeek, it is normal for the bees to drop their numbers down for overwintering, but there are other reasons why a population can go down. without knowing more about what is going on inside the hive it's really hard to tell whether or not what you are seeing is normal vs. indicative of a problem.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> without knowing more about what is going on inside the hive it's really hard to tell whether or not what you are seeing is normal vs. indicative of a problem.


At the end of the day....this is the real answer. A good inspection is in order. The afternoons look very nice this week.....perfect for a look-see.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> it looks like florida may have a small blip in nectar flow in october, but i think david's interpretation may be off.


My thinking too. 
Throughout April and May my phone rings many days with requests to collect swarms. It isn't unusual to go to any beeyard and find a swarm hanging from a nearby branch. Swarm cells are the rule rather than the exception.
October....nada.
I'm not saying it never happens in October but....it is so rare that I don't ever recall having a hive swarm this late....ever.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Whenever a Newbee uses words like "swarm" and "abscond" in Fall asking about a sudden population drop, you can rest assured they probably have a mite and virus problem.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

odfrank said:


> Whenever a Newbee uses words like "swarm" and "abscond" in Fall asking about a sudden population drop, you can rest assured they probably have a mite and virus problem.


You don't say.... this is what I would go with 99% of the time at this point in the year.


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## JoeBeek (May 28, 2016)

Thank you for all of the comments guys - very interesting discussion! I did a full hive inspection yesterday. No sign of queen cells - I looked through every comb. No sign of mites - Dan , to answer your question, I have not treated for mites. I did not see the queen, but I have never seen the queen since I started. There were more bees in there than I thought, especially on the middle combs. It didn't appear that there was lots of capped honey or brood, but I'm inexperienced, so not too sure what I'm basing that on. The bees were very active - not lethargic or anything. I didn't see any activity that would indicate that they might be sick. Santos made a comment about continuously feeding the bees that might provide a clue. I got my package in late may, so I started feeding the bees and continued through the summer. As long as they took the syrup, I kept feeding. I took the feeder out of the hive and pushed the follower board snug against the last comb a couple weeks ago. I just wonder if that did it. 

Thanks again for all of your comments!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

JoeBeek said:


> No sign of mites -


No sign of mites?
I teach a beekeeping class at the Bot Garden. I put a treatment in one hive and a real sticky sheet on the bottom. A week later, for the class, we pulled the sheet. A thousand dead mites. Only a quarter of the recommended treatment period. I suggested that there was likely 3000+ mites in that hive. Then, there was another hive started the same day, using the same methods as the treated hive. I told the class that there were surely as many mites in it. I challenged them to find a single mite. We opened it, went totally through it....and to their credit they found one.
Of course, there were 15 people looking carefully....because they'd been challenged.
Trust me. You have plenty of mites.


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

I was going checking colonies in central Massachusetts last week and found one like joebeek's. Pulled frames from the broodnest and found one with at least 15 hatched out queen cells and a virgin running around. Saw drones in that yard even at this late date. Will check again this week to see if she has mated. I have 13 colonies in that yard so don't mind experimenting with this one. If I see signs of eggs soon I'll probably bring it to my home yard and baby it to see if they can make it through the winter.


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## JoeBeek (May 28, 2016)

Dan - so I guess that the presence of mites would not be obvious during an inspection. Would a severe infestation of mites explain a sudden reduction in the number of bees? Or would it take more time? Thanks!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

JoeBeek said:


> Would a severe infestation of mites explain a sudden reduction in the number of bees? Or would it take more time? Thanks!


This time of year a rapid depopulation of bees isn't uncommon in colonies where mite populations go unchecked. 
There are other possibilities as well but, after eliminating starvation and queenlessness...... in my experience mites are the number one culprit.


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## JoeBeek (May 28, 2016)

Dan - so if the depopulation was the result of mites, what happened to the bees? Did they die? or just fly off? 

What is the best way to check the level of the mite population?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I believe the thinking is infested or infected (virus) carrying bees exit the hive to die elsewhere for the better of the colony. Thinking about the dynamics though, it could be that since brood rearing slows in fall, and if the mite impacts the brood which you typically see, you get a sudden die off of all your older bees and the ratio of older to young bees has been skewed greatly so the hive seems depopulated all of a sudden in fall or it's a combination of both. That being said, you still need to look at the quality of the capped brood and the pattern to really know if the mites are affecting the bees or not. From my experience, it's more important than ever now to head into fall with healthy brood and bees, not waiting until fall to take care of it, especially if you want to maintain hive populations.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

JoeBeek said:


> Did they die? or just fly off?
> 
> What is the best way to check the level of the mite population?


As your bees slow their brood production to make winter bees...the mite population is at its peak. As a result the bees that need to be most durable are, instead, the most heavily parasitized. Many never emerge but their carcasses are removed by other bees. Those that emerge are short lived. The older bees in the hive are dying...the new bees are dying....there isn't anyone to care for the queen or new brood. Some fly off and never return. Some die in the hive and as long as there are able bodied bees those will be removed. Sadly....it is a perfect storm. 

How to determine your infestation? I wouldn't even try to answer that in a message board post. You might check Randy Oliver's website....scientificbeekeeping or better yet attend a local beekeeper's association meeting and find someone who is experienced and willing to work with you. The Eastern Piedmont Beekeepers Assn is a good group. Also, the Oglethorpe County Beekeepers are good.


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## JoeBeek (May 28, 2016)

I have a screen bottom on my TB hive. There is a slot where you can slide a piece of composite material underneath the screen to provide more insulation in cold weather. I had put that on a couple weeks ago. I slid it out last night to see what might have dropped on it (it's white). There were some hive beetles, what looked like droppings of pollen, and lo and behold, a bunch of mites. It looked like a lot to me, but I'm not sure how to measure the infestation. So, I have a mite problem. You guys are good! Is the hive doomed? Is it too late to treat? What are my options? Thank you!


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## dpressley (May 12, 2014)

I'm in the SF Bay Area and have pretty mild winters and living in the 'burbs, my bees have plenty to eat all year round. I've got 1 colony going on its 3rd winter now, just looked out an hr ago to see a big orientation flight! I have never treated or fed. After making it through last winter I thought this colony would go crazy with swarms but didn't. This last spring I had HUNDREDS of DWV bees on the ground EVERY DAY. I thought by May it would be dead, but they made it! Never did swarm, but by fall they were just finishing up with drones and apparently are feeling pretty good about themselves right now  Don't give up.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Why nobody thinks that bees might got clustered so you can't see to many rumbling around?
When they are scattered, it feels like they are too many, but when they are clustered - they are a few.

Do whatever you need to do and observe again in March or whenever you get 3-4 days of 60F in the week.
Good luck!


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