# 3 weeks after catching a swarm... less population, high food stores... QueenRite??



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

A swarm of that size must be a primary swarm. Typically they have the old queen with them. Down by half huh? Maybe the old queen swarmed out again taking half the hive with her. I'm guessing they will make a queen. It will take about a month for her to lay. Myself, I'd get a local queen to introduce. 
A month set back is alot for the hive to overcome.


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Here are the cups that I found. I found 3 total, but don't know if they are about to be queen cups or they once were.... ??


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Here are a few more pics.....

One showing some work... removing a body... either a honey robber or a dead body

One showing the top of a second, 10 frame deep... I put some syrup in a tin dish until I could get a feeder installed.

One showing the front of the hive and their activity prior to their 50% disappearance.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hard to say what those cups were.

In any case, as per Mr Beeman, your swarm was a primary swarm which 99 times out of 100 contains a laying queen, the only exception being if the queen in the parent hive can't fly they may wait for a cell to hatch and go with a virgin.

The behaviour of the bees is consistant with them having some kind of queen, but she could be injured, or a brand new virgin just on the cusp of starting to lay, or she was a virgin but failed to mate and is gone now.

You did the right thing putting the brood in. Check it in a week for queen cells, if none put another frame (of unsealed brood and eggs) in and check that in a week. If they are building queen cells you can then make a decision if you think the swarm is worth saving and give the queen cells a chance to mate, bearing in mind the queen may or may not successfully mate, and even if she does it can be a long time till her first brood is hatching as adult bees and there may not be many of the original bees left by then. Or, if there is no queen cells but still no laying queen in the hive, the best use of the bees may be to shake them out on the ground and let them find their way to the other hives.

EDIT just seen your last 3 pics, the hives are very close together, and that close if a hive is queenless bees will drift to a queenright one. All up my money is on this swarm being now queenless as 50% of them have gone. But you never know, with these things we have to wait long enough for a virgin to mate however 3 weeks for a swarmed virgin is about the outer limit. Could do your brood check thing, but may ultimately be best to shake them out to join the other hives which will make them strong and possibly split them later if you want.

If shaking, you don't want the shaken bees charging into a different hive _en mass_, so take the hive to be shaken at least, say 20 feet away to shake, let them find their way to the other hives slowly. If the shaken hive is a lot bigger then the other hives I may shake some, then shake some more later. Don't allow robbing to start.


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Mr.Beeman said:


> A swarm of that size must be a primary swarm. Typically they have the old queen with them. Down by half huh? Maybe the old queen swarmed out again taking half the hive with her. I'm guessing they will make a queen. It will take about a month for her to lay. Myself, I'd get a local queen to introduce.
> A month set back is alot for the hive to overcome.


Thanks for the quick reply....

I guessed that "my swarm might have swarmed", too. I kinda felt the same way about getting a new queen.... I went to the local supplier, and they talked me out of buying a queen. I don't know if they were doing me a favor or if they didn't have any queens. They did say that they prefer Californian Queens, though.

I figured, (and remember I am completely guessing) that the brood frame will help their population numbers, and the existing workers could create a queen, if there isn't one there. I'm also hoping that the new brood might stimulate her "to get it into gear", if she is there.

My plans are to stay out of them for 2 weeks. 

What else could I do, if there still isn't any queen signs?

Could I shake the remaining population into the other hives without any problems?

I suspect that I could transfer their nectar and pollen frames between the other 2 hives.

Thanks again....


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Hard to say what those cups were.
> 
> In any case, as per Mr Beeman, your swarm was a primary swarm which 99 times out of 100 contains a laying queen, the only exception being if the queen in the parent hive can't fly they may wait for a cell to hatch and go with a virgin.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice!! I will or might do that in the future.


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Hard to say ..........
> 
> EDIT just seen your last 3 pics, the hives are very close together, and that close if a hive is queenless bees will drift to a queenright one. .............


Upon rereading..... I'm starting to think that you could be correct. The swarm hive, was calm when brought to my apiary. Then they started to show aggression. Then they shrunk by 50%. 

About the same time, my Italian package showed a huge population increase and they also became aggressive. And they were really soft in the beginning. I didn't even need any type of protective suit. 

So, I will probably end up doing a shake out in the future.... Thanks for giving me the words that I needed to hear!!

Back to the pics.... The center hive are the Italians, and QueenRite..... The Swarm is on the Right (the one with the grey box), and the Carniolan Hybrid are on the left. They are QueenRite, too.


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

I went out and observed the swarm hive. I noticed them doing something that I haven't seen before. The pic shows it, but they are just standing there.... not fanning their wings, and not moving around. Every once in awhile, the group will react to an incoming nectar hauler. All of them will turn and almost pounce on the incomer. They'll check it out and let it pass, and then get back into position. They are also "flaring" their wings up. I'm guessing that they are "gesturing." I'm also guessing that they might be "guarding."

The whole time that this is happening, the other side of the entrance has a number of pollen and nectar haulers coming in.

Could the frame of brood, that I put in their hive, cause them to do this? Does my interpretation seem accurate?

Thanks....


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

I just went out and looked at the swarm hive. They have a really strong "battle front" at the entrance. There are bees lined up, shoulder to shoulder all the way across the entrance. And they are all facing outwards. I've looked before, and have never seen them do this.

The Carniolans aren't guarding, but the Italians seem to be guarding close to 1/2 of their entrance.


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

An Update,....

I opened the hive, 4 days after installing the brood frame from the Italian hive. I carefully looked at 29 frames and found 3 capped queen cels and zero new brood. I marked the frames that had the cels.

On the very last frame, I saw the queen, that has been in there from the beginning.

I reassembled the hive, and will open it in 2 weeks. Maybe then, there will be brood.

In the last post concerning the "battle front", I'd guess that they are guarding the new Queen Cels.


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

An Update... (for those who might care)
I couldn't wait 2 weeks..... I opened up the Swarm hive, this morning.

I did a similar inspection, as before. I didn't find the queen, but the one capped queen cel was gone, and I found 7 new queen cups. I looked inside them all, and didn't see anything, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't anything there.

I saw 2 different color of drones. Some solid black drones and then some pumpkin orange drones.

The whole time that this was happening, the population had a "light roar" going on.

So that means that 7 days ago, I saw a queen and a capped queen cell. 11 day ago, I installed an Italian Brood frame.

There seemed to be some more pollen, but the nectar seems to be the same. There are still some foundations to be drawn out, too.

While it was open, I pulled out the plastic cardboard, opening up the screen bottom board. There were some ear wigs on the perimeter.

I guess that I'll wait a week, and hope for the queen's return..... and some brood


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Does anybody have any suggestions??


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Following, but too soon for a new suggestion from me anyway.

The different color drones are not significant they simply reflect the genetic diversity in the mother. I'll bet the workers are different colors also but it stands out a lot more in drones.


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Following, but too soon for a new suggestion from me anyway.
> 
> The different color drones are not significant they simply reflect the genetic diversity in the mother. I'll bet the workers are different colors also but it stands out a lot more in drones.


Thanks for the reply...... 

Where is a safe point to either re-queen or combine the hives? I almost feel like my "point of no return" is really close..... hopefully, it hasn't already passed. 

I called a local supplier, who said that they would still have queens, and they let me know that they sold out, yesterday.

Still struggling..... in "the Beehive State."


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

BeeHiveRhyno said:


> they let me know that they sold out, yesterday.


Ouch!

Perhaps best thing would be do another test with a comb with some eggs. Check after 7 days, if there are queen cells being built kill them and order a queen. 

Thing is, whatever queen came with the swarm should have been laying now, she isn't, so has either gone missing or is no good. But brood has been added since so we don't know if there maybe a virgin in the hive. That's what the brood test is to find out.

Other thing, these bees are getting older and it must be weighed up if it's worth trying to save this hive, as even if they requeen it's still another 3 weeks before they have any brood hatching, by which time there may be few bees left. It may be more profitable to put these bees to work straight away by shaking them so they go into other hives and do something useful.


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

:update:

Here's another update, for those who might care,... and those who might offer suggestions.....

I opened the Swarm hive and did another inspection. After going through everything, there still isn't any new brood. I saw something that could have been new brood, but it didn't have the correct appearance or density. I suspect that it was capped pollen.

I didn't see the queen, either.

I took another frame from the Italian hive, and transplanted it along with a number of nurse bees, into the Swarm hive.

I don't know if I've done anything more than just give them another 40 days of existence. I'm half tempted to move the swarm hive away from the other two hives, hoping that distance will solve this queen and brood problem. But that might be grasping for straws, too.

They did have capped honey, which is a new thing.... And the queen cups from last week, appeared to be the same and I even scratched a few of them out.

All of the other signs, make me think that they are Queen Right, but I'm still not seeing any brood production or any new comb production. They are maintaining the nectar, and slightly increasing the pollen.

In my area, I think that a flow is happening. There are a lot of Russian Sage, that seem to be entertaining a few Hives worth of bees. There are a number of Salvia plants that keep them busy, too. Plus the other two hives appear to not be wasting anytime, either. They seem to be very directed and in a hurry.

Any new advice or suggestions, or wait it out, too????

Thanks.....

.

.

.


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Ouch!
> 
> Perhaps best thing would be do another test with a comb with some eggs. Check after 7 days, if there are queen cells being built kill them and order a queen.
> 
> ...


I'm back to wanting to do a shake out..... But I still don't know where to make that decision. I asked a local beek about shaking them out, and his words were, "We're not at that point, yet." 

I then asked, "where is that point?"

I'd guess that after today, I have another 40 days to make that decision..... :doh:


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

:update:

4 days ago, I installed a frame of brood from my Italian hive. I wish that I would have done a better/closer inspection of the frame, prior to installation. Today, I inspected and found close to 30 cels that had eggs in them. There were a few cells that had 2 and 3 eggs. But the rest, had eggs that were vertical and horizontal. Some of them were laying down in the bottom of the cels.

Even though there wasn't a lot of eggs, I was pleasantly surprised to see some new life.

I also was hoping that the eggs weren't transferred from the other hive.

I didn't find the queen, nor any capped queen cels. I did find a queen cup that was in the center of a different frame. I scratched it open to find an egg, but there wasn't any royal jelly.

So, I put it all back to together and will take a look in 2 weeks.

Maybe this means that there is a new queen and she has barely started to lay..... 

???


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

I switched out a hive body, that had a large crack in it. While doing so, I looked deeper into the hive hoping to see some progress with the 30 new eggs.

They looked the same, as they did on the last inspection. They weren't larvae and weren't capped. 

How long will the eggs remain eggs? Can they sit there, and survive, until they get tended to? The bee math schedule says that they should be larva, by now. I took my hive tool and scratched off some of the comb that was around the eggs.

So the eggs might have been transferred from the last transplant, versus my wishful thinking that the new queen is laying. 

I did see 3 queen cups, that were definitely queen cups. They were on the upper half of the frame, too. One of them appeared to have been torn open. the other two had open bottoms and weren't sealed. I wasn't able to see inside of them.

I'd guess that it's time to wait another week.....??


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sorry I just can't figure this out without seeing the hive.

Any chance of a photo of the eggs and a photo of the queen cells?


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

From the outside,.... nothing's there to brag about,,,,, THEY SEEM TO Be bringing back the pollen, and nectar... BUT THEIR NUMBERS ARENT NEAR THE OTHER HIVES,,,,, Id say that the swarm hive is struggling..... 

I've decided to leave them alone...... see what mother nature wants......

We"ll see/'''''''


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Sorry I just can't figure this out without seeing the hive.
> 
> Any chance of a photo of the eggs and a photo of the queen cells?


On my next inspection..... Il try to snap some good pics.

This thing is either disappointing or a xxxxxxx hive....


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Here are some pics. All of the larvae and spotty brood pattern, creates a little confusion. The hive was peaceful, though.









http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd424/BlueLightRhyno/Swarm Hive/20150724_164808.jpg









http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd424/BlueLightRhyno/Swarm Hive/20150724_164813.jpg









http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd424/BlueLightRhyno/Swarm Hive/20150724_164922.jpg


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Here are a few more....









http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd424/BlueLightRhyno/Swarm Hive/20150724_164926.jpg









http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd424/BlueLightRhyno/Swarm Hive/20150724_164932.jpg









http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd424/BlueLightRhyno/Swarm Hive/20150724_165003.jpg


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd424/BlueLightRhyno/Swarm Hive/20150724_165040.jpg









http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd424/BlueLightRhyno/Swarm Hive/20150724_165059.jpg









http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd424/BlueLightRhyno/Swarm Hive/20150724_165102.jpg


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd424/BlueLightRhyno/Swarm Hive/20150724_165119.jpg









http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd424/BlueLightRhyno/Swarm Hive/20150724_165202.jpg


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

What do the pics say/show/tell about where the colony is?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good photos.

Although I didn't see any eggs the rest of the brood looks typical of a queenless hive with laying workers. Don't be fooled by the queen cells they have drone larvae in them and will not survive. I think the best thing to do would be shake the bees out and let them join other nearby hives.


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Good photos.
> 
> Although I didn't see any eggs the rest of the brood looks typical of a queenless hive with laying workers. Don't be fooled by the queen cells they have drone larvae in them and will not survive. I think the best thing to do would be shake the bees out and let them join other nearby hives.


Thanks for the reply, Oldtimer.

In this pic, there are 4 eggs. I do remember seeing more, but they were in a broken up pattern, too. 









http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd424/BlueLightRhyno/Swarm Hive/4 Eggs.jpg


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hmm, confusing. Those eggs are like they have been laid by a queen, not laying workers.

So there are several possibilities. There are laying workers, or there is a drone laying queen, or the only good possibility being there was laying workers but now there is a new queen just started laying.

It is time to resolve this hive one way or another. To do that see what happens to these new eggs, whether they turn into worker larvae or not, you will have to wait till a few days after they are capped then scrape the cap off and see if the larvae are workers or drones. 

Then, if they are worker larvae, allow the hive to continue. If they are drone larvae, shake the bees out so they can join other hives.


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Hmm, confusing. Those eggs are like they have been laid by a queen, not laying workers.
> 
> So there are several possibilities. There are laying workers, or there is a drone laying queen, or the only good possibility being there was laying workers but now there is a new queen just started laying.
> 
> ...


That was my guess, too.... about the queen versus laying worker and the eggs..... and the other eggs had a similar appearance. Meaning, they were standing up, in the center of the cell versus 3 or 4 eggs that are off center.

While you were replying to my reply,..... I was out combining the boxes with the other hives. I didn't shake them, but I used a paper towel as a divider, and combined.

The whole time that I was doing it..... (after asking 2 different local Beeks) my "Gut Feel" was saying that I was making a mistake by combining. 

I came inside to find your reply, and then raced back out to partially undo my recent work.

Luckily they were close.

So, after today's Apiary Exercise,....haha..... the troubled Swarm hive got their bottom board cleaned, and the 3 deep hive got one box removed. It's now back to being 2 deeps. 

The removed 3rd box, got paper-toweled and combined to the top of my Carniolan Hive.

I'll wait a week(?if that is an appropriate time?), and inspect the eggs after they are capped, and check out the larva. 

Thanks for your suggestions!!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If it turns out to be a drone laying queen you must either find and kill it before doing a combine, or shake them out at least several yards away from the nearest hive so she cannot walk into a hive amongst a bunch of bees.


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> If it turns out to be a drone laying queen you must either find and kill it before doing a combine, or shake them out at least several yards away from the nearest hive so she cannot walk into a hive amongst a bunch of bees.



O.K.... thanks.....

I looked at the bee life cycle pic. and figured that 19 days from now, I should be able to figure out the body type that the egg will/should turn out to Bee.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

It will be less than that. 10 to 11 days after the egg is laid they will be capped and pupated (still white eyed), so you can ID if they will be drone or worker. By that time if the queen is normal there should also be a decent pattern of eggs and developing unsealed larvae, so you will be able to make a decision whether to keep the queen and allow the hive to continue, or combine the bees with other hives.


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

I went out and checked the troubled swarm hive. There wasn't any new eggs, and the eggs from the last few pics were gone. There wasn't anything new that was capped over. 

I scraped open one of the really tall and slender cells. It had a drone inside of it. At least, that is what the eyes looked like.

The population had a large number of Drones. I even found a few that appeared to be recently "ruffed up." They had their wings missing and even had legs that were missing. Times must be getting tough, in there.

I used some paper towels and combined the three boxes into the two other hives.

I left one box and 4 empty frames, in the place of the old hive, for the bees that are out collecting. I'll add them to the others, tonight.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

BeeHiveRhyno said:


> I left one box and 4 empty frames, in the place of the old hive, for the bees that are out collecting. I'll add them to the others, tonight.


And after you done that, don't put anything where the hive was or bees will keep going there, take all the gear away so those bees will have to find their way to a different hive.

Good luck, please up date how it went in due course.


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> And after you done that, don't put anything where the hive was or bees will keep going there, take all the gear away so those bees will have to find their way to a different hive.
> 
> Good luck, please up date how it went in due course.


Thanks for the advice, again!

I will do that. 

After removing the equipment, there were a number of Foragers flying around looking for their home. So, that was my motivator to use an empty and under framed box to collect them for later combination. 

The Italian hive appeared to have 3, 10 frame deeps full of bees. So, by adding some to the population, I suspect that a Split might be in my near future.....


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## BeeHiveRhyno (Dec 13, 2014)

Update:

I waited a week, and checked on the combined hives. I only looked at the top two honey supers of both hives. They appear to have accepted the combination, and are working like "busy bees." There are paper towels scattered all over the yard. They seem to be very focused onto a Russian Sage and a few other sources of pollen.

Because of the sense of success, I didn't want to disturb them any further, and closed up the hives.

The Italian hive will probably out populate the four 10 frame deeps, before winter. Does anyone have a split timing suggestion?

Thanks....


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