# putting frames together



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Oh boy! :lookout: Way to start a fight! :lpf:


Certainly you _can _assemble frames without glue, but glued *and *nailed/stapled frames are stronger than frames that are merely nailed/stapled.


If you find it slow or awkward to use glue, I suggest making or buying a frame assembly jig. You can build one from plans here: http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/10-frame-assembly-jig/

Titebond II or Titebond III are good glue choices. TBII is about half the price of TBIII. 


An earlier thread re frame gluing: http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...opinions-from-the-group&highlight=glue+frames

.


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## OkieRob (Dec 31, 2014)

I guess I did throw a doozie out there, k:

I think I can see where this thread will go.


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## IsedHooah (Jan 13, 2015)

OkieRob said:


> Is glue necessary when putting frames together? Thanks


I think you can get away without using it. I believe the argument against using glue is the ability to replace only certain parts of frames when they are simply nailed or stapled. If you put glue on the mating surfaces, you will most certainly destroy any one piece should you try to disassemble it. I personally use glue on all mine, I have yet to have any issues.

EDIT: To clarify, say you wanted to replace one side bar from it splitting due to propolis and brute hive tool use; it would be more likely that you would be able to remove that single side bar without causing damage to the other parts of the frame if you simply nailed them together rather than using glue as well.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Assembly jig.
Titebond 2.
Harbor Freight Air Stapler.
Porter Cable Staples.

I cannot imagine the torture of nailing frames together.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> I cannot imagine the torture of nailing frames together.


I tried it once... Once was enough for me..  Air Stapler all the way now..


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

drlonzo said:


> I tried it once... Once was enough for me..  Air Stapler all the way now..


Once jigged up I run the glue down the end bars, slap in the top bars, and staple.
Flip jig, run glue down the end bars, slap in the bottom bars, and staple.
Pull the spacers and run the staple in from endbar into top bar on each side and put them into a hive body/super for glue to dry.

So simple and it has to be 10x or more faster than hand nailing.

Here is my jig built from some plans somewhere. I have since improved my technique, but this run is one handed.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

The one time i tried using nails was a real pain. I got "fat fingers" lol, and the hammer and them didn't get along well with those little nails. 

After about the first frame I looked up and seen my stapler across the room and instantly fell in love with the idea. Been a believer ever since.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Dont forget a nail in the side of the end bar into the top bar. Really keeps that top bar tight.


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

Someone showed me how they nailed through the sides of the end bars not down through the top. I've never had the nail pull through the top since then. I use grooved top bars and there isn't much solid wood when you nail into the sidebar.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

OkieRob said:


> Is glue necessary when putting frames together? Thanks


"Yes" is the best, short answer.

A very large number of us like TiteBond III or II.

Avoid the common mistake of making parallelograms with your frames.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> Assembly jig.
> Titebond 2.
> Harbor Freight Air Stapler.
> Porter Cable Staples.
> ...


exactly what I do. it seems to work. except I use tite-bond III


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Use a jig that holds 10 frames. Hold 10 end bars together and run a bead along each of the four inside corners where they mate with the top and bottom bar before placing them in the jig. The glue application probably amounts to a couple seconds a penny or so per frame. I can't fathom why someone would choose not to do it.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

jim is right. a drawn comb is a valuable resource and needs to be treated so. we staple, glue and as said the horizontal staple or nail is the most important.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

IsedHooah said:


> I think you can get away without using it. I believe the argument against using glue is the ability to replace only certain parts of frames when they are simply nailed or stapled. If you put glue on the mating surfaces, you will most certainly destroy any one piece should you try to disassemble it. I personally use glue on all mine, I have yet to have any issues.
> 
> EDIT: To clarify, say you wanted to replace one side bar from it splitting due to propolis and brute hive tool use; it would be more likely that you would be able to remove that single side bar without causing damage to the other parts of the frame if you simply nailed them together rather than using glue as well.


Using no glue so as to make the frames repairable would likely be a self-fulfilling prophesy! I glue all the glue surfaces thoroughly.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

AFTER 16 POSTS THERE SEEMS TO BE A SURPRISING AMOUNT OF AGREEMENT.


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## IsedHooah (Jan 13, 2015)

crofter said:


> Using no glue so as to make the frames repairable would likely be a self-fulfilling prophesy! I glue all the glue surfaces thoroughly.


I would agree with you, which is why I use both glue and staples :thumbsup:


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## OkieRob (Dec 31, 2014)

Alright folks, seems to be an overwhelming agreement on using glue. I have plenty of tite-bond III, new harbor freight stapler, senco staples.:thumbsup:


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

OkieRob said:


> Alright folks, seems to be an overwhelming agreement on using glue. I have plenty of tite-bond III, new harbor freight stapler, senco staples.:thumbsup:


You're on the right track!

Does anyone know if there's a good diagram of where people place staples? I to down from top bar into end bar, up from bottom bar into end bar, from end bar into top bar at the top of the end bar, then one more from flat side of endbar at an angle down into the top bar.

This is how I staple my frames, is it over kill? Not enough or wrong locations?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

I do the same mr. Carlson but I add a pin brad cross ways at the lower corners. that would be directly into your photo.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

mathesonequip said:


> AFTER 16 POSTS THERE SEEMS TO BE A SURPRISING AMOUNT OF AGREEMENT.


We haven't heard from _Acebird _yet ...


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Graham, Are you trying to stir the kettle? lol :lpf:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

What!! Me?!?!  

I'm simply suggesting that we shouldn't _count our chickens_ until they have all hatched. :lookout:


You can read the thread I linked in post #2.. I'll see if I can find some more ...


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> What!! Me?!?!
> 
> I'm simply suggesting that we shouldn't _count our chickens_ until they have all hatched. :lookout:
> 
> ...


Well I can see the debate is NOT over by a long shot looking at the posts in that thread. lol


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

... -plenty more here ....

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?304942-FRAME-NAILING

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?300213-Do-I-need-a-jig

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-for-frames-or-do-they-also-need-glue-as-well

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?287847-Better-Mousetrap-Gorilla-Frames!


And here's a real _doozy _... 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...that-glued-frames-are-stronger-than-non-glued

opcorn:


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

I know it's pathetic, but I find myself scrolling thru radar's posts just to see what ace says. 
But what entertainment LOL!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

mathesonequip said:


> I do the same mr. Carlson but I add a pin brad cross ways at the lower corners. that would be directly into your photo.


I have been considering something like that. As is I use all 1.25" staples. Would need to get some short guys for that particular operation, no? Not that it's a big deal, could do a change over and knock out a ton of the short staples in a hurry after doing all the other ones. Thanks for the input.



jim lyon said:


> Use a jig that holds 10 frames. Hold 10 end bars together and run a bead along each of the four inside corners where they mate with the top and bottom bar before placing them in the jig. The glue application probably amounts to a couple seconds a penny or so per frame. I can't fathom why someone would choose not to do it.


And the above is how I have started doing the glue too. Stack 10 end bars together run glue beads, flip and do other side, then put into jig. The only issue I have is it seems like the glue likes to run quite a bit. Same way when I do boxes. It isn't a big deal and not much is wasted, but it is kind of a mess. I tried using a paint brush a couple of times and that really wasn't much better.



rwlaw said:


> I know it's pathetic, but I find myself scrolling thru radar's posts just to see what ace says.
> But what entertainment LOL!


Control + F. Type Acebird. Read Acebrid's recommendation. Do the opposite.
It's much faster and less scrolling.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

mr. acebird lives a hundred or so miles from me, he too is likely frozen in.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

mr. Carlson use pin type brads cross wise in the lower corner, staples, even short caused splitting. a loaded harbor freight pin nailer is not a big investment.


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## JStephens (Jan 21, 2015)

1 inch 1/4" crown staples are only needed till the glue dries, 1 down from the top into the end bar and 1 up from the bottom into the end bar the one thru the side generally only grabs aprox. 1/8 of an inch of the side bar and one side of the staple sometimes end up in the groove which sucks when your putting in foundation. When putting together 1000 frames the 2000 staples saved is 500 more frames. If the glue fails... you were light on glue.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

JStephens said:


> If the glue fails... you were light on glue.


Some end bars are not cut very precisely and may not fit snugly up into the top bar. I understand what you are saying, but it sure is nice to have that extra nail or brad through the side of the end bar ... just in case there is a deficient bond with the glue. It can prevent a top bar being pulled off when prying a frame up from the box. On the other hand .. if I were putting together 1000 frames I may not be too concerned about a few frames not making the cut.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Couple of things we like to do when building frames:

The foundation goes in before the bottom bar goes on and the end bars are stapled. No fighting with staples in the groove.

The staple thru the top bar is off center and the staple thru the end bar into the top bar is off center the other way. Less chance of staple interacting and shooting out and more solid wood.

Foundations is stapled into the top bar and bottom bar with 3/4" staples at an angle. 2 staples at the top and 2 staples at the bottom. Makes the frame extremely strong and the foundation never pops when frames are waxed together. Not sure why I still use glue; habit I guess.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

I used to glue and nail, I have a thing for wanting things to be perfect and hand-nailing allowed that, but it took a long time. Eventually I gave up perfection for an air nailer/stapler for more speed. I can go fairly quickly, even without a jig. Sometimes, when I get going quickly I can get a little careless and find myself holding the frame with my fingers in too high of a position. Sometimes, staples pop out through the side of the frame. When those two events coincide, it causes my wife to yell "What the heck did you do now?" This is usually followed by "Make sure you clean up that blood before it dries on the floor."


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

badbee this loud commentary is what we call "speaking in French"


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Mike Gillmore said:


> *Some end bars are not cut very precisely and may not fit snugly up into the top bar.* I understand what you are saying, but it sure is nice to have that extra nail or brad through the side of the end bar ... just in case there is a deficient bond with the glue. It can prevent a top bar being pulled off when prying a frame up from the box. On the other hand .. if I were putting together 1000 frames I may not be too concerned about a few frames not making the cut.


I was having a big problem with this, and it was causing the side pieces to split. Then I started prepping all of the pieces by trimming all of the contact points with a small, sharp knife. (I do that with the finger joints on the boxes now too.) I'm liberal with the glue, and the staples too- two through the top on each end, then two through each side piece into the top bar (but only one one through the bottom bar into each side). It will be a long time before those suckers come apart.

I can see where someone wanting to put together a thousand frames in a hurry might not want to go to that much trouble. But I'm just passing a warm afternoon, sitting on the porch with a homebrew or two, enjoying the scenery, birds and bees flying about, the occasional deer or flock of turkeys wandering by, Harriers hunting rats in the field...


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