# Another Newbie Opting for TBH



## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

Hey there. 

I'm just about to start my beekeeping adventure, and I think this website might have just saved me a lot of $ and time and frustration - so thanks already! I was just about to place my first order for 8 frame garden hives from Brushy Mountain when I came across the notion of a top bar hive. I like the idea of building the hive and components myself, I like that it makes use of the bees' natural behaviors instead of trying to manipulate them (or at least not as much), I like the idea of a gradual harvest that includes a higher proportion of harvested wax to honey, I like the way the hives look - I like pretty much everything about the concept.  

At any rate, I'm almost certainly going to begin with a Kenyan TBH or two, and wanted to solicit some advice on the best type of top bar to start with. Cutting a kerf into one side of the bar and filling it with wax would work fine, as would attaching a protruding piece of small square of triangle stock, or even the wax dipped string trick. Which method do y'all prefer?

Thanks,
Doug


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

elsyr said:


> At any rate, I'm almost certainly going to begin with a Kenyan TBH or two, and wanted to solicit some advice on the best type of top bar to start with. Cutting a kerf into one side of the bar and filling it with wax would work fine, as would attaching a protruding piece of small square of triangle stock, or even the wax dipped string trick. Which method do y'all prefer?


I have done a few different ones. 3/8" sq stock and attach it with glue and nails. I made a more intricate bar on my first one and it just took me more time. Both have worked just fine for me. Now what I have done is. Made a bunch of bars, and ran them flat on a table saw with 1/4" deep cut down the center about 1/8" wide (thickness of the saw blade) Then I went to the paint store and got a bunch of free paint stur sticks. Broke them in half. And glued them in. This has been by far the easiest.


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Hello Doug,

I'm new here too. I opted for the Top Bar Hives for all the same reasons. The great thing is you can pick and choose the designs that fit your budget, materials available, tools available, and skills.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress. I'll do the same.

Thanks, Steve


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## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

Derek said:


> I have done a few different ones. 3/8" sq stock and attach it with glue and nails. I made a more intricate bar on my first one and it just took me more time. Both have worked just fine for me. Now what I have done is. Made a bunch of bars, and ran them flat on a table saw with 1/4" deep cut down the center about 1/8" wide (thickness of the saw blade) Then I went to the paint store and got a bunch of free paint stur sticks. Broke them in half. And glued them in. This has been by far the easiest.


That was kind of the idea I had, too - I happen to have some 1/8" masonite hanging around, so was thinking of cutting a kerf down the center of the underside of the TBs, and gluing in a strip (1/2" maybe) of masonite. I didn't really want, if I could avoid it, to mess around with pouring molten wax into the kerf.

Thanks,
Doug


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

elsyr said:


> That was kind of the idea I had, too - I happen to have some 1/8" masonite hanging around, so was thinking of cutting a kerf down the center of the underside of the TBs, and gluing in a strip (1/2" maybe) of masonite. I didn't really want, if I could avoid it, to mess around with pouring molten wax into the kerf.
> 
> Thanks,
> Doug


I have never used the wax. I add bars in the middle of the brood nest as they expand and have never had a problem with them drawing out raw bars. One thing you will be amazed at is how fast they draw a full bar of wax. 

Here is a picture of mine from last year. 3 weeks in.

http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/40871/2385615510103391520S600x600Q85.jpg


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## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

Derek said:


> I have never used the wax. I add bars in the middle of the brood nest as they expand and have never had a problem with them drawing out raw bars. One thing you will be amazed at is how fast they draw a full bar of wax.
> 
> Here is a picture of mine from last year. 3 weeks in.
> 
> http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/40871/2385615510103391520S600x600Q85.jpg


Wow - that's 3 weeks work by the girls? Unreal. Gotta tell you - I just can't wait to get started on this. I think I'm definitely going to have to build a window into the side of the hive (with a hinged wooden shutter) for observation. Otherwise I'll be into the hive way too often just to see what's going on.

Doug


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

I like the window idea. Though I don't have one. I will put one on my next tbh. The first year its ok to be in there alot. Thats how you learn. April,May,June I was in there every week. Not just a peak either. Full blown inspections. And at least 3 other days a week just watching the entrance. Once you learn eyes/hands on whats going on inside. You will be able to tell alot by just watching the entrance.


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## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

*Plans Drawn*

Poking around in the garage, I came across a heap of 1x8 lumber in 6-7 foot lengths that I had salvaged from a model railroad table I took apart a couple of years ago. Given that, I plan on making my TBHs from 1x8s. This will mean using two pieces for the sides, joined along their length, but that will give me an excuse to uise the biscuit joiner I bought a while back. 

I plan on putting in a screen bottom, but putting aside a 4' piece of 1x8 to close the bottom with should it ever become necessary (the bottom will be 7.25" wide). I figure ventialtion will be a good thing here in north Florida, or in NE Georgia (where we will be moving in a few years). The ends are going to be set into the sides, instead of bookending them as seems to be usual with most plans. I still have to figure out how I want to do the legs - I'll probably use some 2x4s I have sitting around for those. The top also has yet to be designed. I think I want a slightly gabled end on it, just for looks, but I'll figure that out after I build the body.

I've got a jpeg file of the plans and cutting diagram I drew up, but I don't see a way to insert the picture except as a link - 

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d152/elsyr/Bees/kenyantopbarhiveplan.jpg

Any and all feedback would be most apopreciated!

Thanks,
Doug


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

*Cleaning Out The Garage*

Doug,

Did the same thing today, but my "heap" was a pile of 2x10's. 2x stock might work out better for our bees during our sub-zero spells in the winter. Cut and ripped up a bunch to make top bars this afternoon. Cut size was 21 3/8" x 1 1/4" wide x 1 1/2" tall. Trimmed the lower side of the top bars by running them through the bandsaw at a 45 degree table angle. Gives them a nice ridge along the bottom to "help" the bees lay down comb in a straight line like the paint stick idea. Hoping to finish them up tomorrow by trimming the top bar ends so there is only 7/16" of material resting on the sidewalls of the hive. This way their topside will be level with langstroth frames I have in case I have to use some of them. (Building a Tanzanian TBH for that reason.) I need the top surface flat to put a sheet of insulation board on the top board surface before a put a roof/cover on it.

Let me know how you're going to work legs on yours. I had someone suggest extending my front and rear boards 1 1/2" on each side and bolt on some 2x4 legs to these extensions. After looking at your plans, I wonder if something like that could be an option for you. Also, your plans gave me an idea to cut the front and rear at an angle so when the legs are attached, they're angled outward to give them a more stable, wider stance on the ground. The front and rear extension idea was to keep the bolts out of the hive in case you wanted to remove the legs to transport the hive or repair them.

Another benefit is we're cleaning out the garages! Aren't bees great!

Keep up the good work,
Steve


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## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

*Window Question*

In thinking about cutting the wood for this hive this weekend, and how to put in an observation window with an external hinged "shutter", a thought occurred to me ... will the girls cover the inside surface of the window with propolis in fairly short order? If so, should I use a particular material for the window (e.g. glass instead of plastic) to make it easier to clean the propolis off?

Thanks,
Doug


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## MOJ "The Bee Whisperer" (Aug 25, 2008)

*the window*

If you keep the window flush with the side there will be problems


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## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

MOJ "The Bee Whisperer" said:


> If you keep the window flush with the side there will be problems


So, looking at it from the inside, it would be better to have the window inset further into the wall of the hive? I had actually planned on having it flush with the inner surface.

Doug


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## Baloo (Feb 28, 2006)

My two cents is to cut a hole in the end that accommodates one of those plastic mason jar feeders. It makes it easy to help them out when they are first drawing out comb. Easy to check and easy to fill. Good luck!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've done them all and they are all ok. I like the triangle the best. It seems to be the most reliable for getting the comb on the bar and the strongest.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

elsyr,
One thing that I have to worry about with the Kerfs is that they are the perfect size for Small Hive Beetles to hide in. You're further south, so I can only assume that you have SHB's as well. If the Kerfs run through the ends of the TB's they do provide little nooks where the beetles can hide from any bees. Sure the bees will eventually fill this in with propolis (as far as they can reach anyway), but I would rather have not kerfed mine the whole length of the TB. Stopping 2 inches from the end would have been sufficient.


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## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

wayacoyote said:


> elsyr,
> One thing that I have to worry about with the Kerfs is that they are the perfect size for Small Hive Beetles to hide in. You're further south, so I can only assume that you have SHB's as well. If the Kerfs run through the ends of the TB's they do provide little nooks where the beetles can hide from any bees. Sure the bees will eventually fill this in with propolis (as far as they can reach anyway), but I would rather have not kerfed mine the whole length of the TB. Stopping 2 inches from the end would have been sufficient.


Thanks for the tip! I'll either use a kerf (into which I plan on inserting a strip of masonite) that does not reach to the end of the bar, or cut the slots all the way down and fill the last inch or so with wood putty. My wife and I went and visited a member of the local beekeeper's association yesterday, who mentors folks in our area, and we DEFINITELY have problems with SHB here. They were all over the place.

Doug


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## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

*Any more thoughts on window insets?*

I was hoping to get some additional thoughts from y'all on the best way to inset an observation window into the side of my hive - my initial plan was to have the glass flush with the inner surface of the side wall. I certainly don't want it protruding into the hive, and I thought that if it were inset deeper into the side wall, I'd just be asking for the girls to fill in the space with propolis. Am I off base?

On other notes, I've order a couple of packages from Rossman for this coming spring, and I'm doing a little bit of redesign to incorporate 30 degree angles on the sides instead of 22.5. It makes sense, from a hexagonal perspective to have 30 degree sides, and it also makes some of the measurements for cutting cleaner (sin 30 = .5  ). Any thoughts on whether or not the angle of the sides in a KTBH really makes any difference?

Thanks,
Doug


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Doug,

It was suggested to me to make it glass and make it flush with inside wall. Supposed benefits of the design is;
1) Any comb built will not "catch" on the recessed edge when bar is withdrawn from TBH for inspection.
2) If the bees attach comb to the glass vs. plexiglass, easier to cut off comb with knife.

Hope this helps, Steve


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## katydid (Nov 10, 2008)

I put windows in mine...what I have read is that the bees are less likely to attach burr comb to glass than to plexi, but plexi is easier to work (can cut it using my woodworking tools) and I can buy scrap for $1 a lb at Tap plastics. After my first year I have a few spots of wax on the plexi where burr was attached, but actually they kept it pretty clean. I have done both flush and face mounted so the plexi extended into the hive 1/8". The bees didn't mind, the only downside I saw with the face mounted was it affected the fit of my followers. The flush window was anchored in with silicon caulk, the face mounted with simple mirror hardware.

Maybe look at Phil Chandler's site: biobees.com if you haven't yet. Lots of good pics there of different folk's hive designs, and of course, lots of opinions on how to build and manage them. 


cheers
Laura


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Baloo said:


> My two cents is to cut a hole in the end that accommodates one of those plastic mason jar feeders. It makes it easy to help them out when they are first drawing out comb. Easy to check and easy to fill. Good luck!



That could cause a robbing problem. Use the mason jar feeder, but do it internal using a follower board. 

Just to add a helpful tip:

If you have a 3 or 4 foot TBH do not allow them acces to the whole thing at one time. Only let them have access to what they can use. Using a follower board. Add bars as needed and close of the rest of the hive. The closed off space makes a good space to store tools too.


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## Baloo (Feb 28, 2006)

Derek said:


> That could cause a robbing problem. Use the mason jar feeder, but do it internal using a follower board.
> 
> Just to add a helpful tip:
> 
> If you have a 3 or 4 foot TBH do not allow them acces to the whole thing at one time. Only let them have access to what they can use. Using a follower board. Add bars as needed and close of the rest of the hive. The closed off space makes a good space to store tools too.



It has never caused robbing in my yards. Even when there is a severe drought and you can hardly do inspections because robbing is so bad. The main reason is because the feeder is on the other end of the TBH from the entrance. Structurally it is in the same place as an internal feeder, at the back of the hive. This external feeder has one big advantage: if it leaks you can see it before it runs all over the inside of the hive.

I would definitely second the follower board though. It will make the bees less likely to abscond.


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## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

*Thanks ...*

... for the input folks! I'll go with a window flush with the inside walls, most likely glass (depending on what I can find).

Doug


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Baloo said:


> It has never caused robbing in my yards. Even when there is a severe drought and you can hardly do inspections because robbing is so bad. The main reason is because the feeder is on the other end of the TBH from the entrance. Structurally it is in the same place as an internal feeder, at the back of the hive. This external feeder has one big advantage: if it leaks you can see it before it runs all over the inside of the hive.
> 
> I would definitely second the follower board though. It will make the bees less likely to abscond.


Your right on the feeder. I misunderstood it the first time I read it. I thought you were doing the mason jar as an entrance feeder.


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## Baloo (Feb 28, 2006)

Derek said:


> Your right on the feeder. I misunderstood it the first time I read it. I thought you were doing the mason jar as an entrance feeder.


Those are definitely a prime robbing target. I found that out the hard way. Even putting feeder then entrance reducer so the feeder is all the way on the other side of the reducer doesn't work that well for me. In my Langs I made some "feeder tops" with holes in the tops to fit mason jars. That way the bees can get food right at the tops of the frames. They work pretty good. 

As for the bars, I like to us triangle stock made from the leftover pieces of wood that come from ripping the bars out of 2x4 stock. Any way you go there is going to be a chance the bees will make crooked comb. If they do, don't get frustrated. Remember that once they start drawing out straight they pretty much stay that way.


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## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

*Modified Plans*

All:

Thanks again for the valuable input! I've modified the plans a bit (link to new file below) after switching to a 30 degree angle for the sides and marking the wood for cutting last night. Hopefully, I'll be cutting the pieces this weekend (would have started last night, but need to replace the blades on both the mitre and the table saws - installing laminate floors a while back ate the blades). It looks as if I can get two 3' hives out of the 1x8 stock I have on hand, so long as I use something other than 1x8 for the roof planks. A friend of mine works in a sign shop, so I'll see about getting some scrap sandwich board from him.

Doug

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d152/elsyr/Bees/kenyantopbarhiveplan.jpg


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## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

*Well, that didn' turn out very well.*

It seems I made a few goofs - 

1) I didn't allow for the saw kerf in marking the cuts on the wood;
2) I overestimated the accuracy with which I could use the biscuit joiner to make the end plates;
3) I underestimated just how flinking heavy all that 1x8 would be;
4) I overestimated how far I could stretch the 1x8 stock I had on hand - there's not enough for two hives.



I did have fun playing with the biscuit joiner and the nail gun, at least, so since it was nothing but scrap wood anyway, I guess I'll call it a win.  

I think I'm going to bail on my overly complex design and go for the Bush Plan. I am going to modify it just a hair to have a screened bottom and move the entrances, but the structure will be essentially what's on his site. If I'm feeling ambitious, I'll put in a side window.

Doug


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Doug,

Heck, the bees aren't particular! Put 'er together with a little baling twine, duct tape, a brick or two and set it outside. Probably have more bees and honey than one of those store bought hives!

You get "E" for effort!

Steve


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## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

Steve10 said:


> Doug,
> 
> Heck, the bees aren't particular! Put 'er together with a little baling twine, duct tape, a brick or two and set it outside. Probably have more bees and honey than one of those store bought hives!
> 
> ...


Thanks! You know - the only thing that keeps me from going ahead and using it is (aside from looking at it and saying "yuck!") that I'm going to need two hives come spring when I pick up my two packages of bees, and I want the top bars to be compatible between the two. That said, I may stick the thing in a corner in case of an emergency.

Doug


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## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

*Hives are built - bees are ordered - now what else do I need?*

Well, I've got the two hives built and installed in the back yard. I ended up not installing the observation windows for the sake of simplicity. I also ended up using popsicle sticks in a saw kerf on the top bars for a starter strip. Hopefully they'll work, even through they only extend about 1/4" or so down from the surface of the bar. I have not built any followers, although I may take a couple of the extra top bars and convert them to followers before the girls get here in April. I'll try and post some pics of the progress this evening and link to them here.

In the meantime, I've been poking through the catalogs and circling things I think I'll need, and wondering how much of it I'll REALLY need with a TBH. The way I see it, for myself, I'll need a veil and a hive tool and a smoker is probably a good idea. For the girls, I'll want a couple of feeders to place in the unoccupied space in the hive and perhaps some pollen patties to get them started. I'll also need some sugar to make syrup and perhaps some confectioner's sugar for dusting. A great deal of the rest of the paraphenalia in the catalogs seems to be either very Langstroth oriented, concerned with extraction (and I'll be doing crush and strain), or in the realm of antibiotics and medicines ... this leads me to wonder if I will need much (or any) of it if the TBH performs as expected. 

My question then, is this - what other things should have on hand as a new TBH owner? Are there particular medications that I should not be without a supply of (even if I hope to not use them). Specific tools you find yourself using every time you open your TBH? i.e. if you were in my newbie shoes, what would YOU be ordering to have before you went to pick up the bees?

Thanks,
Doug


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## Aram (May 9, 2006)

Congratulations! :applause:
I would get the pullover and the veil. You shouldn't need the full suit but having the pullover jacket like this one instead of the clumsy veil is nice. You can keep the veil for guests or those times when you really want to work in short sleeve shirt otherwise I find them very cumbersome. 
Have you cut the bars yet? Popsicle sticks work but a full length wedge works better. Seems like you like to play with tools so here's how I do it: Top Bars


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## LenInNorCal (Feb 28, 2009)

The thing I like is the notion that almost all of it "works" and there is no standard. I've not gotten the girls yet, but I have built a TBH holder as holding real still is not my "thing". Just makes sense to get 1/8" wire, or coat hanger but they're all plastic now, and bend it like a shallow "M" with long legs and drill two holes for each in a board, about a top bar apart. Stick the wires in the holes and viola'. 
Since there's so much info about various bars, I just write what I have on the bar, like "No popsicle stick" or "No kerf", "No wax", etc and see which one works better. Also the paper log will be helpful. 
Spring is more than in the air, it's in the blood! Have fun.
Oh, and thanks Aram for your photos on how to cut that triangle on the top bar. I'll go out and make a few of those as soon as SWMBO wakes up.


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## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

Aram said:


> Congratulations! :applause:
> I would get the pullover and the veil. You shouldn't need the full suit but having the pullover jacket like this one instead of the clumsy veil is nice. You can keep the veil for guests or those times when you really want to work in short sleeve shirt otherwise I find them very cumbersome.
> Have you cut the bars yet? Popsicle sticks work but a full length wedge works better. Seems like you like to play with tools so here's how I do it: Top Bars


Thanks for the info. I may try to make some fancy bars like that with the next batch ... I've already got enough to cover both hives with a few extras. The pullover does seem like the best idea to me ... I've worn a full suit once and it seemed a little excessive. 

On the feeding and medication front, anything other than sugar syrup and some pollen I'm going to want to have on hand? Honey B healthy perhaps?

Thanks,
Doug


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>On the feeding and medication front, anything other than sugar syrup and some pollen I'm going to want to have on hand? Honey B healthy perhaps?

Essential oils will kill off beneficial microorganisms as will any kind of antibiotic (Terramycin, Tylosin, Fumidil etc.).

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm


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## elsyr (Dec 2, 2008)

Michael Bush said:


> >On the feeding and medication front, anything other than sugar syrup and some pollen I'm going to want to have on hand? Honey B healthy perhaps?
> 
> Essential oils will kill off beneficial microorganisms as will any kind of antibiotic (Terramycin, Tylosin, Fumidil etc.).
> 
> ...


Thanks - I guess I keep getting stuck in the "do too much" frame of mind, in which that little voice in the back of my head keeps saying "it can't be that easy!" 

Doug


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