# Supercedure cells in very strong hive



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I would say here that they are more likely swarm cells instead of supercedure cells. What makes you call them supercedure cells? I've never seen more than three supercedure cells, I might believe four, but six? No way, with six cells my bet is swarming cells. It's the time of year and the hives are in good flows with good stores and with drones and lots of bees. Sounds like swarm time to me.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

How do you know they aren't swarm cells? Sounds like they may be well populated, and she reads to be laying well. If they are supercedure that is happening for a reason, but sounds more like swarm cells


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## Mr. Buzzy Bee (May 22, 2013)

I believe that the cells you are explaining are swarm cells. Like the people above said,since the hive is growing and is running out of room, they are planning on repopulated the woods. I have only seen one of my hives make about 4 supercedure cells since the queen was deformed, however the bees tore down the cells and kept the queen until they swarm. The deformed queens daughters have been great layers 5 to 6 frames of brood.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

What the others said.

There is a myth that you can tell if they are supersedure or swarm cells by the placement on the comb, and this has led many astray.

If there are more than 3 cells in a queenright hive, they are swarm cells. The number of cells is a better guide, placement on comb is irrelevant.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> There is a myth that you can tell if they are supersedure or swarm cells by the placement on the comb, and this has led many astray.


The myth about queen cell placement and swarm vs supercedure is an excellent point.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

Yes it is a complete myth. You can find a supersedure cell anywhere on the frame including tucked in against the side bar or the top bar or hanging off the bottom bar. I would also put the limit at 3.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Some central Europeans use 3 as the limit, but that's not what I see here in TN. I use the groundrule of 6, and have seen as many as 10 cells leading to supersedure. 

Ridgeway is not in my road atlas, but if you are in the coastal band of near tropical conditions, you are in early swarm season for your area. Then again, 6 cells is a short count for swarm cells in a full-sized colony. Even so, I will throw in with the gang and guess swarm. If you have significant nectar between the top of your brood and the overhead capped honey, that would confirm swarm intent. A feed band of a cell or two doesn't count.

Walt


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

khenry567 said:


> Lots of capped brood and larvae,


How many eggs did you notice when you checked the brood frames? If they are preparing to swarm you will probably see a notable reduction in "eggs", perhaps close to none.





khenry567 said:


> With the number of brood in this hive the queen looks very good.


"If" they are preparing to swarm you may want to find the queen and remove her and make up a nuc or split before she heads for the trees.


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## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

I agree with wcubed. I'm also in Tennessee, and as it is said, "beekeeping is local", I had a hive with 12 supercedure cells last year. And I know it was supercedure as that's how I knew it was in the process. The virgin queen killed the original queen, which was only about 4 months old, which I found laying on the screen bottom board with a clump of bees around her, which drew my attention. Upon inspecting I found the 12 queen cells scattered on the frames, and one queen cell with the hinged cap on the cell. She became and still is the queen of this hive. 
So the limit of 3 nor 6 held true.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

My opinion of that Gezelig is it was a swarm attempt gone wrong. Although I didn't see the hive so can't be 100%.

I encourage fall supersedure in my hives it saves me work. But I'll normally see 3 cells max, quite often just one. Swarm prepping, rarely less than a dozen cells.

But as been said beekeeping is local, so if other guys say different, not something I can argue.

Pretty sure though that exactly where on the comb a cell is placed, does not tell you what the bees intentions are for the virgin.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I don't understand why there are supercedure cells in this hive.

The first question of course is ARE they supersedure cells. Swarm cells are usually not the same age. Supersedure cells usually are. Swarm cells are usually numerous. Supersedure cells are usually not. Numerous, of course, is a relative term to the size of the colony. Assuming they ARE supersedure cells (they probably are not) a supersedure has more to do with pheromones than anything else. A queen may be laying well but her pheromones are failing.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm#supersedure
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#swarmcellsonbottom


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## khenry567 (Apr 26, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies. Really appreciate it. I see by the names of those that replied there is a lot of collective wisdom here.

wcubed said: Ridgeway is not in my road atlas. We are 16 miles north of Columbia. Just get the magnifying glass out and you will find us.

Ray replied: How do you know that these are supercedure cells? I don't. I just guessed that they were by the place they occupied on the frames, which was the middle. From the majority of replies it sounds like swarm cells can be any place. 

A history of this hive: This hive is one of two nucs I purchased and installed last April 21st.(our first) This hive also swarmed approx. June 25th. I watched them swarm, watched them as they sat out of reach, and watched as, two days later, they flew off into the sunrise. When I inspected this hive later in the week I noticed a lot of swarm cells but they were at the bottom of the frames, not in the middle.

Two weeks ago this hive was two deeps. The bottom one was empty except for a small amount of capped brood and some pollen on one frame. I am switching to mediums and was told this was a good time of year to make the switch if I could. I took out the bottom deep, put the top deep on the bottom board, and threw a medium with two frames of honey and bare foundation/ partial bare foundation on top of it. They are building comb like crazy on the partial and filling the comb with nectar/honey. They have one deep comb on the outside that is empty. NOTE: We did not see eggs in this hive, just capped and uncapped brood. Now we could have missed the eggs. I just assumed there were eggs.

I was thinking of throwing another medium with foundation/partial foundation frames between the medium they are filling with comb and honey and the deep, thus giving them more room to expand. 

If you all are right though and these are swarm cells then I will still get a swarm no matter if I put the empty medium on or not. Correct?

I have some 5 frame nucs built and ready to go, both deep and medium. Don't want to use the deep unless necessary.

If these cells are supercedure and I split how should I do the split?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hmm well seems a bit unusual they prepping to swarm when they still have empty comb.

But if you want to split, do so anyway. I have found hives in the act of superseding and split them, no worries, I've done it using the cells, and I've done it later using the old & new queen. Worst can happen is the old queen fails but in that event you have the option to recombine.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Based on the history provided, I'd like to change my call from swarm to supersedure.

I like OT's call on an aborted swarm attempt. It's not uncommon for a colony finding itself in the top box not building down, and swarming out of the top box.

The history shows a major upheaval two weeks earlier. My current guess is that the colony consensus blamed Momma for the disturbance, and elected to supersede.

I don't do splits. Someone else?
Walt


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If you all are right though and these are swarm cells then I will still get a swarm no matter if I put the empty medium on or not. Correct?

If they are swarm cells. They may or may not be. Are they all about the same age? Are the ages dispersed from small larvae to capped cells? Is the hive in a rapid buildup?

>If these cells are supercedure and I split how should I do the split?

If they are supersedure cells I would leave them be and not split them. If they are swarm cells, I'd make a split for each frame that has some queen cells on them and make sure you leave some in the original hive. If you see the queen put her in one of the new locations. If you don't, then don't sweat it.


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## khenry567 (Apr 26, 2014)

Hey Mr. Bush,

you asked, If they are swarm cells. They may or may not be. Are they all about the same age? Are the ages dispersed from small larvae to capped cells? Is the hive in a rapid buildup?

No, the cells are definitely different ages. Two, each on a different frame, were capped. Yes, the ages of worker/drone larvae are from small to capped. Saw no eggs but that doesn't mean they weren't there. There was a lot of drone capped brood in this hive compared to my other two hives. As far as rapid buildup I don't have the experience to judge that yet but there is 5 deep frames of brood on both sides in the bottom deep. The top medium doesn't have any brood, only comb and honey/nectar. The amount of brood is similiar to last year before this hive swarmed.

The weather here is going to be cloudy/rainy for today and tomorrow. Do you ever see a swarm on those type of days?

Thanks for your help


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

khenry567 said:


> I have some 5 frame nucs built and ready to go, both deep and medium. Don't want to use the deep unless necessary.
> 
> If these cells are supercedure and I split how should I do the split?


Take 2 medium nuc boxes and fill with 4 frames, leaving the central space for a frame empty. Then stack them. Then take a deep frame that has queen cells on it and put in the center space, hanging from the top box down into the bottom box. Set it in place of the hive that has the two frames with queen cells in it. Move the main hive to a different location, say, 10 feet or more away if you can. 

The main hive will loose it's foraging force of bees to the stacked medium nucs you left in place. It will then most likely not swarm, as it has no foraging force to send off and is greatly weakened in population. The queen cells it has will emerge and it'll become queen right, and if the old queen is there she'll disappear.

The 2 story nuc you left in place the cells will emerge and you'll get a queen going. If the old queen is here she'll get replaced. This hive will dwindle as population dies off, but by then you should have a laying queen in it.

The upper scenario has worked for me many times in the past. There are many variables in beekeeping so what happens for you might turn out a little bit different, but I can not imagine anything turning out badly.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>No, the cells are definitely different ages.

I am talking about the queen cells. If so, that would indicate swarm cells.

> Two, each on a different frame, were capped. 
>Yes, the ages of worker/drone larvae are from small to capped. 

That doesn't matter so much.

>Saw no eggs but that doesn't mean they weren't there. There was a lot of drone capped brood in this hive compared to my other two hives.

That would contribute evidence to the swarm theory.

>The weather here is going to be cloudy/rainy for today and tomorrow. Do you ever see a swarm on those type of days?

Ever? Sure. Often? No. They like a nice sunny day.


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## khenry567 (Apr 26, 2014)

Hey Ray,

I like your idea. Makes sense. Got a couple of questions about the frames though and your thoughts.

In this hive I have 8 medium frames with full honey or partial in the top medium body. In the bottom deep I have 5 deep frames of brood on both sides, 2 of which have the queen cells, one with pollen and honey(only seven frames in deep). 

How many of the medium frames to the new two story medium nucs? Any empty/new frames/no comb to the new double medium nuc? Fill the empty spaces in the old hive with new frames?

Thanks for your thoughts and yes, I agree with Burt. Kieth


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## khenry567 (Apr 26, 2014)

Thanks for your experienced thoughts Mr. Bush.

Yes, the queen cells are different ages. Two were capped, three others were not. Can't remember the sixth one.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

khenry567 said:


> Hey Ray,
> 
> I like your idea. Makes sense. Got a couple of questions about the frames though and your thoughts.
> 
> ...


The old hive that you move to a new stand will not have foraging bees so they will need more stores. That of course means the new nuc you leave in place will have all the foraging bees so will not need as much stores. And, you are trying to get away from using deeps, so... I would move two medium frames of honey to the nuc in the top, one on each side of the deep frame hanging in the middle. The rest of the space, 6 medium frames, I would make foundation to help increase the amount of drawn comb you can get done this year. As all the brood emerged from that deep frame, pull it out and put in 2 medium frames, one in top and one in bottom box. Then as they get the two story nuc all drawn and used, move it to a single medium and put another medium on top of it. When you put the medium on top, move 2 outer frames from the bottom to the center of the top as bait frames to help them move up and start drawing combs in the top.


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