# Who uses the 9-frame spacers?



## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

when drawing foundation I use 10 frames to a box after that i go to 9 frames and use a spacer the bees will draw the comb deeper making it much easier to uncap


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

*9 frames*

this is on my (long) list of things to change next year- go from 10 to 9


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

As Riverat says, build them out as 10 frames.

I have now removed all the 9 frame spacers. Too difficult to pry the frames out of the
darn things. However, I still run 9 frames in the supers. I just built a couple of 9 frame spacing bars to set the frames where they should be when starting the super.

Fuzzy


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

I run 9 frames also.

I do it without spacers as I found that the frames were too hard to pry out of them, as Fuzzy did. I merely eyeball the space to keep things even. (But, I haven't had my eyeballs calibrated recently, so keep that in mind.)

While we're on this subject, there was some talk at the last bee club meeting about going to an 8 frame system to draw comb out even further. But, this idea was discouraged, as here in Michigan our winters get too cold and the increased bee space and reduced total number of cells would make for looser winter clusters, thereby possibly freezing the bees. While I don't have personal experience with 8 frame systems, the objections ARE something to definitely think about.

DS


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

I hope you realize the thread is ONLY for honey supers. Ten frames in the brood chamber has always been the best route to go. The reason for 9 frames, as stated above, is for easier uncapping. Since you don't uncap brood frames, you use ten frames there. Nine frames will cost you a frame of brood, and mess up the bee space, as the cells are too deep for brood rearing.


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## yoyo (Jun 13, 2007)

That's a good point Iddee. I have been thinking about ( ut-oh) dead air space in a hive. I am sure that everyone who has seen or been involved in removing a hive from any type of structure has noticed that there is dead air space in the cavity. What got me thinking about this is mountaincamp's thread about how he feeds with pollen and syrup jars on top of the frames, and then adds a deep or medium body to contain it. This extra body is mostly air, minus the space that the jar or pollen takes up.Nothing for the bees, wax moths, or hive beetles to crawl on. Dead air is also a good insulator against the cold. When I first thought about the shape of a brood nest (sphere), with the honey placed around the nest area, the first thing I thought was that the bees were using honey not only as food, but also as insulation. Then a full super of honey on top gives a good insulated, edible, roof to hold the heat inside. Please excuse my ramblings, but I wanted to see what others think about this idea.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

*bee space*

We use 9 frame spacers all around the outfit. i'd like to go to 8 frame honey supers. Bees can store more honey in these boxes and you end up with an extra extra honey super for every 8 boxes that go from 9 frames to 8 frames.

Jean-Marc


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## Troutsqueezer (May 17, 2005)

yoyo said:


> Just curious who uses the 9-frame spacers in their supers? I was told that they would draw out a deeper cell if you use them, making it easier to uncap with a knife.


I use the nine frame spacer tool, a piece of metal cut to the right spacing which slides the tops of the frames to even positioning. You push it in to space the frames and then take it out. It works well and I get more honey per frame, for sure.


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

iddee said:


> I hope you realize the thread is ONLY for honey supers. Ten frames in the brood chamber has always been the best route to go. Nine frames will cost you a frame of brood, and mess up the bee space, as the cells are too deep for brood rearing.


I _didn't_ realize it, Iddee. But, follow my train of thought here:

In the winter, the bees remain in a ball-shaped cluster, ideally starting in the bottom brood chamber. As the months go by, they slowly work their way upwards, eating honey along the way, and maintaining their cluster's ball shape.

But, here's where I get confused. Come February, typically the coldest month here in Michigan, the cluster is in it's tightest configuration. This is the month when most of our bees, even the ones that were strong throughout the previous months, starve to death. This is also the month where they've eaten through the deep brood box, up through the deep honey super and are now going into the medium honey super. Where they starve is where they can't make the jump. If the gap is too large for them to cross, they'll starve to death with pounds of honey right above them. Okay, here's my question:

If you're running 10 frame deeps, won't the winter cluster starvation problem be exaggerated by the bees not being able to cross a gap between 10 frames and the staggered 9 frames, since they obviously won't line up evenly? Even with 10 frame deeps and 10 frame mediums directly above, sometimes the gap is too much for them to cross. Wouldn't they be have a better chance of survival in a 9 frame deep to a 9 frame medium situation, than a mixed 10 frame to 9 frame setup?

Am I doing it wrong? I've had good luck, so far, but I'm curious to hear other people's ideas on this!

BDDS


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

You are mixed up in what is brood box and what is honey super. Brood boxes, 1, 2, 3, or 4, contain 10 frames and stay on the hive year round.

Honey supers, 9 frames, are placed on hives at or shortly before honey flow, and removed afterward, then stored until next year.


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## Jim Williamson (Feb 16, 2006)

BDDS, regardless whether you run one deep and a medium, two deeps, three mediums, or two deeps and a medium, make sure you remove all supers with less than the standard 10 frames (or eight in the case of 8-frame boxes) before winter. Eight or nine frames of comb in a ten-frame box is for extracting only. Just my opinion, of course.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I used to have the Stoller spacers and took them all out. Now I use the Maxant spacer which is like a big "comb" (like you comb your hair) that spaces them. I only space them after they are drawn.


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

I don't think I'm so much mixed up on what brood/deep boxes and honey/medium boxes are, as much as being confused as to why I wouldn't standardize to an "all 9-frame system" of configuration.

I understand why I'm putting 9 frames in my honey supers that I'll be harvesting. (And, yes, it IS easier to extract, with what seems to be more honey and less wax lost as cappings.) 

But, to eliminate the "step" between the 10-frame box and the 9-frame box, shouldn't one standardize and go to an "all 9 or all 10 frame system" for consistency?

I haven't experienced the loss of a frame of brood, as my queens don't lay in all frames of their brood boxes simultaneously. As for loss of bee space, after the initial build-out of comb, bee space has been maintained with 9 frames. Depth of the cells, apparently, is to my bees liking as well. So, I don't see any drawbacks, personally, with using 9 frames in ALL my boxes.

But, it does make sense in my head as to why I _shouldn't_ have a 10 frame to 9 frame "step" between boxes. Tell me why I'm wrong. (In a friendly way, of course!)

DS


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Beekeeping is personal preference.

We all do it differently.

There is no step in the winter. All boxes are 10 frame.

>>>>I don't think I'm so much mixed up on what brood/deep boxes and honey/medium boxes are,<<<<

A deep can be a honey super. A medium can be a brood chamber. It's not the size, it's the usage.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Frame spacing in supers and brood nests.

My answer for the brood boxes is that I put 11 in. At least in a ten frame box. I shave the ends down in order to do this and I do it because it's the spacing the bees use if you let them. But 10 will do. The theory of doing 9 in the brood box is that there will be more cluster space, less swarming and less rolling of bees. The reality, in my experience, is that it requires more bees to keep the brood warm, the surface of the combs is more irregular and this causes more rolling of the bees when removing frames. This irregularity is due to the fact that honey storage comb can vary in thickness but brood comb is always the same thickness. The results are that where they have honey and you have 9 frames, they have extra room to fill and they fill it with honey. If they have brood then it is not as fat as the honey. I tried 9 frames in the brood nest and was not impressed. I now have eight frame boxes and I have 9 frames in them (which requires shaving the end bars down). At 11 in a ten frame box you get very flat consistent comb and you get smaller cell size more easily.

My answer for the supers is that ONCE THEY ARE DRAWN you can put 9 or even 8 in the ten frame supers with good effect as the combs will just be thicker. But when it's bare foundation, the bees will often mess up the comb if you space it more than ten. Ten frames of bare foundation should always be tightly together in the middle of either a super or a brood box in order to prevent the bees from attempting to build a comb between the foundations instead of on them. With eight frame boxes you can do seven drawn combs or even six.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

*Space thoughts*

I did buy a few pair of 9 frame spacers for honey supers but haven't used them because of some negative things I have read. Lately, when removing and transporting supers wih 9 frames I have found that although they are propolized in they can come loose and even fall out. Also, frames [thick comb] may rub against each other and scrape the capping; this is especially detrimental for comb honey frames. Maybe there are other ways to deal with this problem but I am thinking of installing a few spacers and see if that helps to prevent this.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I just spent some time last week ripping out the 9-frame metal frame spacers. 

I prefer the 8-frame hand held maxant spacer. My old cowen works much better with 8 frame comb drawn out. I'm not putting the stoller spacers in as I want the boxes to all be interchangeable between the brood and honey supers.


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## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

*9 Frames in Brood Boxes*

OK, I'll weigh in here, since the logic that caused me to try 9 frames in a brood box hasn't been mentioned...

There was an article in Bee Culture about two years ago. The author (and I wish I had saved it) pointed out that, as you move vertically thru a hive, having frames line up with each other allowed bees to move easier without "traffic jams", ventilation to flow better, and debri to fall easier to the bottom board. If you have 10 frames in the bottom and nine frames in your supers, they don't line up vertically. Made sense to me so I've been giving it a go.

A couple of observations I've made. First of all, I use a hook end hive tool http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=532 and its easier to use on nine than ten frames. The hook end allows me to gently raise each end of the top bar just enough to get my fingers on it without crunching bees at the bottom of the frame.

Secondly, bees don't glue the frames together as badly since there's a little more space between the end bars. When they do, it's easier to slice thru with my hive tool. I haven't pried off a top bar since I started 9 frames.

I don't migrate my hives. Maybe if I did, I'd have to go back to 10 frames, since the number of frames of bees per hive is important in bee leases. But for now, this is one thing that makes beekeeping easier for me. And the bees don't seem to mind.

Like Iddee said, all comes down to personal preference...


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## UtahBeekeeper (Oct 14, 2006)

*Like Dee Bee, Michael . . . . .*

. . . . . and others, I use a 9 frame spacing "jig" . . . made it rather than purchased. Supers of drawn comb only. The biggest pain about the metal spacing hangers is that it takes away the interchangability (sp) of the super box. They were a bad idea. frames might work is brood box for some, but why take away a frame of brood cells or winter store cells? Makes little sense, and I have talked to folks that have had lotta burr comb built in a 9 frame nursery. We all ask our bees to zig and zag a lot, which thing they do just fine. Pollen trap anybody?? I believe that having super frames line up perfectly bith brood fames below in not all that valid. JP


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## Dale Hodges (Jul 13, 2007)

Seems to me theres a big different in beekeeping according to where you live. I can understand where 10 frames could be important in cold weather. I"m a FL beekeeper , I've been using 9 frames from "top to bottom" since the 60s
Althought I've run into some cross comb its never been a big problem. The bees here seem to do better with 9 frames. It helps them with ventalation, and heat and humitity is a big problem, I can go through a hive with less damage, When pulling frames I don't roll bees as bad...they don"t need anymore excuses . SHB's are a problem here, if you accidently put frames to close together SHB will move in quick. Maybe you could try it on one or two hives before you commit all your hives.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Dale,

what do you mean by "put frames to close together"?
I run 10 frames and put them as close as possible, can't get any closer
always looking for a way to make life hard for SHB

Dave


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## yoyo (Jun 13, 2007)

ok, so survey says,,,,out with the stroller spacers. I just ordered 10 more. Now, about the 10 to 9 frame step. This is one idea I have not read in any of the books. I assume if you put a 9 over a 10 then the frames dont line up and where the gap is it will be harder for the bees to climb up thru. Why do they not put that in the books I wonder. Well I hope the bees don't mind too much as I have a 9 frame medium over a 10 frame deep and its going into winter like this. I just added another undrawn medium in hopes they will draw some before it gets too cold, but probably wont happen. See I learn something everytime I ask a question.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>A couple of observations I've made. First of all, I use a hook end hive tool http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=532 and its easier to use on nine than ten frames. The hook end allows me to gently raise each end of the top bar just enough to get my fingers on it without crunching bees at the bottom of the frame.

But if you used this:
http://www.beeequipment.com/products.asp?pcode=591

It would fit even with 11 frame spacing.  AND it is longer and lighter than the Maxant version and has more leverage.


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## Dale Hodges (Jul 13, 2007)

Drobbins, The bees will keep SHB and their larvae out of your frames as long as they can "get to them". In my experience, if while manipulating your frames, If you push one up against the side of the super or push two together to close for bees to "patrol" the SHB will take advantage of this small space. I've found the same problem when feeding pollen patties. If you feed one big pattie , its full of larvae in a couple of days. But , if you break the pattie up in small pieces so the bees can get "all around" them they keep the SHB out. Thats why I was saying I think this is more of a geographical thing . The pros and cons of running 9 or 10 frames is more about locality than "correct "procedure.


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## Dale Hodges (Jul 13, 2007)

Just sitting here thinkin... Wouldn't it be great if we had the money and time to visit other states and beekeepers and spend a couple days working bees. Being in FL all my life I think I've got a pretty handle on FL bees(hadn't lost my shirt yet) but I would probably be broke the first year out up north or out west. Bees is bees, but.....


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Put me in the nine frame top to bottom category. Better ventilation, more interchangeability, and less congestion is all the reason I needed. Then using all PC rules out the irregular frame thickness problem, and pulling the outside frames and setting them to the side negates the rolling of bees too.

I like the way it works for me, and that is what is important, finding a way that works the way YOU like it. So forget what we do and try everything and then decide what you like and do it that way.


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## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

Michael Bush;267377But if you used this:
[url said:


> http://www.beeequipment.com/products.asp?pcode=591[/url]
> 
> It would fit even with 11 frame spacing.  AND it is longer and lighter than the Maxant version and has more leverage.



But, I'd have to buy one of those and I'm, well, I'm not cheap, I'm frugal...  Seriously, that would be nice to use in my comb honey supers...

I'm still evaluating how well the 9 frame throughout strategy works for me. The nice thing right now is that, without frame spacers I can go back to 10 anytime I want. I ripped them out of all my supers this year, too.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The nice thing right now is that, without frame spacers I can go back to 10 anytime I want.

Actually, no you can't. Your widely spaced brood frames have protruding honey here and there and ten will no longer fit.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Wow there are a lot of dfolks missing the point on this. Langstroth's bee space makes the ten frame hive need ten frames in the brood nest. As you get familiar with this and want to experiment, you want to try eleven. Read MBs pages for how. The more brood space the more brood. This should apply to every box you leave on over winter.

I also use the 8 frame comb on my langstroth hive supers. More honey, less wood, less extracting. But the honey supers with the eight frames each are only on during a flow. Not during the winter. And once you've used a frame in an eight frame super, It's way too wide for a ten framer. You'll have to slice some off of it and let the bees restore it.

Sometime around the first of Sept. all the eight frame boxes should come off and be in storage for the winter. All winter long it's solid ten or eleven framers. 

Hawk


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## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Actually, no you can't. Your widely spaced brood frames have protruding honey here and there and ten will no longer fit.


Not exactly what I meant... Permanently installed spacers limit my use of the hardware. The less "specialized" equipment that I have in the yard, the better for me.


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## WUVIE (Aug 16, 2004)

Where do you find an eight frame spacing tool?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Where do you find an eight frame spacing tool?

I bought mine from Brushy Mt. but I don't see any listed anymore.


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## [email protected] (Sep 23, 2006)

I think I bouht my 8 frame spacers from Mann Lake earlier this year, so check there I think they have some.


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