# Queen comparison, Beeweaver, Carpenter, and my own strain



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very interesting dar.

last sentence of 2nd paragraph - Tldr?

the loaner colony at my place, was the queen mated over this way or in hamilton?

i inspected a few of mine today and they are looking similar to what you report for 'your line'.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The loaner colony was mated there near Rainsville. The bees at that location now are one of my line and one colony with a Carpenter queen. I can mate queens purely of my line at the guy's place that I traded for 3 colonies.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood dar, many thanks. how are the colonies now managed by your mentees doing so far this winter?


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

There are four beekeepers in this area with my bees. One guy has only my line of bees. His are in very good condition with zero losses this winter. I helped him inspect them a couple of weeks ago. Another 5 miles north of here has a mix of my line crossed with Carpenter queens. He has zero losses from them, but he bought 5 colonies of neglected bees from a woman whose husband died several years ago. One of the five died sometime in January. I'm interested in the remaining colonies because they potentially represent some different survivor genetics. They have not been treated in at least 4 years, maybe more. The third beekeeper with my bees has several colonies, but I have not checked with him recently to see how they are doing. The last time I talked to him in mid January, he said they were all in good condition and he was building equipment to get ready for spring. He sold a couple of colonies last year to another guy who now has a start of treatment free bees. The last count I had, there were a total of between 40 and 50 colonies of bees either of my line or from mixes between my line and Carpenter's in this area.

I have identified 3 breeder colonies for this year. One is a carpenter queen purchased last spring that produced an exceptional crop last year. One is my line and produced 3 shallow supers of honey which is a pretty good performance. One is a mix of Carpenter and my line that produced 3 medium supers last year. This last queen belongs to the beekeeper north of me. I currently have bees in 4 locations with 3 here and 1 at Rainsville. I will be setting up a 5th location with the 3 colonies I swapped for. I will use them to establish an apiary with my line of queens to be kept in isolation for future breeding.


----------



## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

You guys might just as well text one another opcorn:


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

More fun this way. We get to see how many people read the thread and think all kinds of crazy thoughts about guys who don't treat their bees.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

it's possible that we have an above average number of insomniacs here in the western hemisphere, but it's not unusual to find that there have been several hundred views to these threads between when i log out at night and then back in the next morning, which suggests to me that there are quite a few folks paying attention from the other side of the globe. pretty cool.


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Here is one of them, very interesting read! 

It is always fascinating reading observations of different lines of bees, which are performing in the same apiary at the same time. Just as a comment, if I were you Fusion_Power, I would save one of the BeeWeawer queens and take a samll batch of daughters from her to test the outcome. There maybe soem valuable genes after all in them.


----------



## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

I believe weaver sells a large number of queens to commercial guys who pollinate almonds, that being said if that is your game then you want those bees to produce brood really early and at least 8 frame strength about 2 weeks ago. You may have something going pretty good for yourself by your bees building up more conducive to your honey flows. As far as mites go, have you done any alcohol washes? If they still show positive results then the next step is to get several hundred colonies running, it is one thing to have a handful of good queens showing low mite counts it is another thing to have 300+ colonies showing low mite counts. I am not trying to rain on your parade or discredit what you have done in any way but I would rather like to encourage you to take it to the next level and get several hundred colonies with your queens. You very well may be on to something and the only way to know is have more of your genetic stock out there.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Just as a comment, if I were you Fusion_Power, I would save one of the BeeWeawer queens and take a samll batch of daughters from her to test the outcome. There maybe soem valuable genes after all in them.


Good read FP. 

I might consider what Juhani suggests if nothing more than the early brooding. Personally, I believe this to be an advantage. My point is that survival can be achieved, lots of reports of that, but survival AND high productivity is far less common. This combination of traits is where I focus my efforts. That said, I do not like the usurpation swarming behavior. I see it too on occasion and might be tempted to pass on these genetics for that reason alone. Perhaps you could locate another highly productive strain to introduce instead of propagating the weaver stock?


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Interesting. I would suggest you provide queens on a "blind" basis. The trouble with tests where the observer knows the history is one of unconscious (or quite conscious) bias towards a pre-determined result.


----------



## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

Riskybizz said:


> You guys might just as well text one another opcorn:


If they just text I would not be able to read it and I ttink it is interesting.


----------



## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Thank you for the discussion of your queens and their characteristics. Gives us a few ideas of what folks are looking at when they breed queens.


----------



## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Good stuff. Thanks for that.

I have a couple queens i want to get daughters from this year. They are slightly swarmy, but they are so prolific and really great about storing extra honey that I think the trade-off is worth it. The older queen will be going into her third year this spring so I'm thinking they will be itching to build some nice cells for us.


----------



## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

FP would you say your line of bees tends to be to the carniolan phenotype? If not what would you call them? Maybe a pic of a normal queen? I would be interested in seeing what your localized stock looks like.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

They are dark, most are black with some yellow markings. Many traits are a lot like the old Apis Mellifera Mellifera black bees that were common in this area 30 years ago prior to trachea and varroa mites. One trait that I've worked on is to select mostly for collection of lighter colored honey. The old black bees would make a lot of very dark colored honey. Here is a rough rundown of traits.

They tend to be more aggressive than most commercial bees. I've selected down on this trait so that today there is only one aggressive colony left. It belongs to the beekeeper north of me. That colony is hot enough that removing honey in August during a nectar dearth requires a veil and suit. That queen is still alive because adding 4 supers in spring reliably results in 3 to 4 medium supers of high quality honey in August. When a colony is producing a reliable profit of $350 a year of honey at $7 per pint, don't disturb them.

They tend to swarm yearly unless interrupted by hive manipulation. When a colony is intent on swarming, I pull a 3 frame nuc and use it to establish a colony letting them mate a new queen.

They are very intense honey collectors. I can't fault Italians and Carniolans in this area, both tend to go after whatever is available when it is available.

They forage at low temperatures, significantly lower than Italians. I recently watched my bees foraging heavily for pollen at 41F on a sunny day. The Beeweaver colonies were not flying that day. There were a few bees flying from the Carpenter colonies. I've had Carniolans in the past and have seen them forage at 41F though they usually don't treat it as a normal day to be out and about.


----------



## cavscout (Apr 21, 2015)

I'm in South Texas and my impression that all bees become swarmy and more aggressive in this region. I could not imagine working hives not suited up. They are very productive bees and do well without interventions. Great info Infusion Power.


----------



## DG2015 (Mar 4, 2015)

A bit late in commenting but this is Good information! I picked up 3 Carpenter's queens last week. The positive feedback in this and previous threads caught my attention. Starting my 2nd year with 11 hives. I'm not treatment free yet but agree with the philosophy. Perhaps a change in genetics will help.


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I read your comparisons with interest Dar. I read all your posts. 

The difference I see between the Carpenter & BWeaver queen descendants is less pronounced. After four years with Weaver Queens and open matings, I see fewer usurpation swarms now but they do happen. I see it a bit differently though, because AHB are in my area and those softball sized swarms may usurp feral colonies...An improvement.

The BWeaver bees can be protective, but defensiveness is on the wane...An improvement. They are just now filling the third deep with bees, have at least 8 frames of brood and are ready for a honey flow.

I had to exile the Carpenter bees from the yard for their aggressiveness last spring, but they made a good honey crop -certainly a result of open mating with aggressive feral bees.

Bees from my VP breeder queen have had about the same honey production as the Carpenter and BWeaver bees in my location, but the Carpenter bees have come through winter using almost all of the honey reserve (an 8 frame deep and a shallow over a deep); VP and BWeaver queens used noticeably less honey over winter. The VP queens with open matings were fairly aggressive, I exiled a couple of them last spring too.

All three strains of bees in my apiary tested in the range of 3% mites in mid summer last year. 

All anecdotal information, not to generalize, your results may vary.


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Lburou: Have these hives been treated? When the last time?




Lburou said:


> I read your comparisons with interest Dar. I read all your posts.
> 
> The difference I see between the Carpenter & BWeaver queen descendants is less pronounced. After four years with Weaver Queens and open matings, I see fewer usurpation swarms now but they do happen. I see it a bit differently though, because AHB are in my area and those softball sized swarms may usurp feral colonies...An improvement.
> 
> ...


----------



## SansTX (Jul 2, 2014)

I'm fairly new at this - I know BWeaver but who sells Carpenter queens? (With a name like that, Google brings up the wrong kind of bee)


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Bill Carpenter out of Florida.


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Lburou: Have these hives been treated? When the last time?


Yes, I treated them last fall, after Thanksgiving.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

http://www.carpentersapiaries.com/ will get you to the right place.


----------

