# Home bred queens or bought queen



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

We are not allow to import the pure AMM bees here though I have interest to get some breeder queens too.

Both has its advantages.
A bought queen will maintain the genetics around your apiary.
A home bred queen will overwinter well since they have adapted to your local environment already.
Which way you choose is individual preferences since the local drone population will either go with or against
your progress. For example, this year I have a chance to play with the Cordovan (yellow queen bee) all the way to the 4th generation.
Our local area support 90% carnis drone population. I have realized that since the dominant genes are the black/gray color, it
is useless to go against the bee color trend. After the 3rd and 4th generation, they are at 50% yellow and gray. The Cordovan color
changed starting on the 2nd generation. Some daughter queens are in between color either 20/80% or 80/20%. So to answer your question, if I want to maintain the Cordovan color in my apiary then I have to buy a Cordovan breeder queen either AI or II. And if your local area support the darker drones then the AMM will blend in fine without you noticing them like I do when looking at your bee pictures. They are all mutts anyway. Having a breeder queen will give you the same color daughter queens all at the same time frame. Nevertheless, this is a good learning experience for me on bee genetics this year, on the surface level of course. Now I know have to buy a Cordovan breeder queen to keep the
yellow color genes going.
After looking at my bee experience, what do you consider is a good way to keep your apiary more pure of the AMM? Your overall goals will tell you which direction to go with.


Starting and ending queens:


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Beepro
What`s most important for me is the hygienic behavior, the bees having drone brood over the whole year (as a varroa trap) and the correct drawing of small cells on my foundations or next year on natural comb maybe.
So they will survive without treatment.

The daughter colony has much more yellow striped bees.
Where the mother was bred, there have been some Ligustica drones.
In my area there are Buckfast (which are yellow striped). The daughter has probably mated with their drones.
I have made two splits. 
Both are doing their work as described above, most wonderfully.
In all my hives I have no mites and no deformed bees yet, I made a check yesterday while being supervised by my mentor. 

I will decide my actions when I see a crisis coming or when the bees get too aggressive for me to handle.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I like home grown queens (esp nucs made up with swarm cells) unless I am trying to change genetics. Then I buy.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

you may want to check with your mentor, but i don't believe you will have brood in your hives during the cold winter months at your northern latitude.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Andrew Dewey said:


> I like home grown queens (esp nucs made up with swarm cells) unless I am trying to change genetics. Then I buy.


Which genes are important to you?
You`re a prof.
In my opinion bee colonies want to raise their own queens because they form an integrated whole.

We are a small group keeping bees without treatment. We have -100 hives between us, we are hobbyists.
Those who bought queens (large cell queens mostly) often had the problem of their bees not accepting these, and changing them later.
I´m the only newbie so my friends know how to do it, don`t worry.
The problem is that bees bred in isolation are mostly bred to harvest large quantities of honey or being gentle.
Not to be resistant.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> you may want to check with your mentor, but i don't believe you will have brood in your hives during the cold winter months at your northern latitude.


Maybe or maybe not. I`m living south at the swiss border , it`s possible that it never freezes the whole winter through. Mostly we have 5-10°C until January, then it could be snow and frost until march.
You never know, that`s a problem (mostly with feeding and not enough bees for keeping warm the brood). And it`s very foggy.
Sometimes they start breeding in January, using hazel for feed, then frost comes.

Last year my first hive (Carnis, treated with acid, large cells) died because they had too many mites and defect bees in autumn in spite of treating. 
Guess they had 15000 bees to go into winter but they had brood until end of february because of warm weather. Sick brood mostly, so when 2 weeks of frost (minus 15°C) came, they were not able to warm the cluster.
Before in october they tried to get rid of sickness and mites and put out the larvae, but it was too late.
You could go into this hive with no gear every time, just in shorts, t-shirt and sandals.
But they could not defend themselves.

I`m doing a scorecard for one year now and I`m a good observer (of other hives, too). 
The most resistant hives are not the gentlest and not those who bring the most honey.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interesting, looking forward to hearing how you do, thanks for posting.

as far as rearing vs. buying queens it sounds like you are taking careful notes and letting your observations guide you, good luck.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

From reading here that the mutt AMM German black bees are not
mite resistant in our country. Don't know whether or not they are in the wild.
Since I have no experience with the AMM, they may not be the hygienic
bees. The yellow Italians have develop the grooming and VSH behaviors here.
Maybe the split hives develop the hygienic and mite resistant there.
It is nice to do a little bee experiment by keeping the pure AMM and the mixed
hives to compare their hygienic and mite resistant capability.
Yes, the canis in our local area do not have the resistant ability. They are too docile to even move their bodies when the mites are on them. I don't like
that too gentle bees. But the Italians that I keep have the grooming and hygienic behaviors, mite resistant which I like to keep the mite level down. Still, I do a round of OAV treatment to keep the hives mite free if possible before going into the Fall and winter. Do you know if the AMM or the mixed yellow bees have the mite resistant ability? Does your mentor know too?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

My mentor (30 hives) had resistant bees as long as other beekeepers kept clear his radius of 3 km. His AMM and Carnis both had been able to keep mites at bay with only 10-15 hives of other beekeepers nearby.
2 years ago a migrating beekeeper (50 hives) put his colonies nearby for 4 weeks.
Crisis came with mite drift and he had to take his hives to an isolated place to see if they would survive (he treats not). 11 out of 30 survived. Our colonies are the remnants of these. 

It`s not the race, we believe, but the style of beekeeping. 
I know only of one race which is more resistant, the Elgons of Erik Österlund, Sweden.

The problem in my area is that everybody treats but the mites are more or less resistant and many hives die and the phoretic mites go to other hives with the surviving bees.
If beekeepers want to have the dark honey they treat not , do splits (treated), harvest and let the bees die. Thats because you can not sale honey with any med contamination here.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

We have the same mite issue here. 
As for the contamination in the honey, the Oxalis acid (OA)
will not contaminate the honey because it is a natural plant 
based derive powder. I have read that they exist naturally in
the honey also. But the free running mites will be dead when they are in contact
with the OA. The trick is to treat when the broods hatched out in a 21 day cycle.
Or at anytime when the mite level is at the highest usually in the end of the summer time.
Over here we use Apivar to get rid of the mites in a longer period. Don't know how this will affect
the honey.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Yes, we treated with acids in bee class.
After using formic acid you have to wait half a year before taking honey out.
Oxalis acid is ok. 
For a beekeeper who lives off his bees it will be a necessary action, maybe.

But if you treat, no matter what you use, your bees will never learn to defend themselves.

So I will make splits from my best VSH colonies and use the other ones for having honey, if I let them get strong maybe they can chew the mites out.
Sometimes I will buy a queen from a beekeeper who attaches importance to resistance.

But I`m new and this are only my hopes, maybe disillusion will find me.


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