# How to keep bees away from snowcone stand?



## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

I'm curious how he came to rely on you for a solution. I hope you didn't tell him they're your bees. Have you seen enough to verify they are honey bees and not wasps? Are you getting colors in you honey frames?

I have 2 shaved ice vendors within 1/2 mile of my house where I keep my colonies, one to the south east, one to the southwest. I see an occassional bee at those shacks, but mostly yellow jackets. BTW, there is another beek between me and the closest snowcone shack to the southeast, but I still don't see many bees there.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Even if you had no bees, he'd likely still have a bee problem. Serving up syrup during dearth sounds like a conflict he'll want to deal with, no different than a bait shop dealing with flies and such... it's a part of HIS business, not yours.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

A fan blowing out the window should help, it may have to be a rather large one.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Reminds me about the fall festival we were selling honey at several years ago. We had an OB hive and were giving out samples of honey. There was a major dearth at the time. The snow cone booth was mobbed by local bees (it was insane) and other vendors were very disturbed and some even got stung. The festival organizer came by my booth and told me that my bees were getting free and were at the snow cone booth. Really pretty funny, but she brought with her a police officer to evaluate the situation. It took some convincing that the bees mobbing the snow cone booth were not mine and that the OB hive was totally sealed. It was complicated because the robber bees were buzzing around my samples and investigating my OB hive for entrance, which made it look like they were getting free. Since then, this festival uses sealed trash cans, which has really helped, but next strong fall death I suspect we'll see problems again.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

I would think the "neighborhood bees" are more likely to be yellow jackets, not honey bees.

If he doesn't mind the ambiance, he could set out some gallon jugs, each with about an inch of syrup of some sort to attract the bees. Many of the bees that enter the jug will go for an extended swim and will not exit.


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## hodge1995 (May 29, 2015)

Move said stand!:lpf:


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## Boomhawr (Jul 28, 2014)

Years ago I as a mechanic at a Dr Pepper warehouse. We had a bay area where they used an old forklift to crush the damaged cans and let them drain. In summer it was ALWAYS covered in honey bees. Never bothered anyone though.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

Sugar / water container on top of the building/trailer might work to keep them out of the range of people.


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## Ryan M (Jan 16, 2013)

Hops Brewster said:


> I'm curious how he came to rely on you for a solution. I hope you didn't tell him they're your bees. Have you seen enough to verify they are honey bees and not wasps? Are you getting colors in you honey frames?
> 
> I am a beek and happened to get a snow cone there and got to talking with the proprietor after seeing some bees (not wasps) buzzing around. I actually live in South Austin and keep my bees about 50 miles away out in the country, so they're definitely not my bees!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Is it a "cart" type operation or a stationary stand?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

We were visiting the bee lab in Tucson a few years ago...staying on the other side of town and took the bus and walked back and forth.

The closer we got to the lab, the more bees there were in the trash cans at the bus stops.

One thought would be to make a bee trap so that foragers don't return to the hive with a reward...set it up high on the roof of the stand or on a pole. If they pile up quickly even after a few days, then you know the problem is more involved. If you are trapping a significant number of bees from any single hive, then you have a hive that is doing a significant amount of their foraging at the stand...which isn't a sustainable situation.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I would think the "neighborhood bees" are more likely to be yellow jackets, not honey bees.

I agree. Yellow jackets are the first to go after pop or other things like that. But if there is a dearth, honey bees will take anything... I would try to educate him so he knows the difference between honey bees and yellow jackets because it will help him when he sees them. All these bee clubs who perpetuate the shiny yellow and black cartoon bee are not helping the situation... I would blame the cartoons etc. but they don't know any better. The bee clubs should...


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## Ryan M (Jan 16, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> >I would think the "neighborhood bees" are more likely to be yellow jackets, not honey bees.
> 
> I agree. Yellow jackets are the first to go after pop or other things like that. But if there is a dearth, honey bees will take anything... I would try to educate him so he knows the difference between honey bees and yellow jackets because it will help him when he sees them. All these bee clubs who perpetuate the shiny yellow and black cartoon bee are not helping the situation... I would blame the cartoons etc. but they don't know any better. The bee clubs should...


I've been a beekeeper for three years and I can tell the difference between honeybees, wasps and yellowjackets. This is a mobile truck snow-cone vendor that sets up in a designated lot. I was there getting a snowcone and I saw honeybees everywhere, and the proprietor told me it is a big problem causing his customers, most of which have children, to freak out when the bees go for their snow cones. Thanks to you all for the suggestions.


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## Ryan M (Jan 16, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> Is it a "cart" type operation or a stationary stand?


It's a mobile truck but it has to be parked in a parking lot so there is not much room for him to move around.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

It comes down to not giving the bees anything to eat and they'll eventually stop coming. Kind of like robbing... it's tough to stop once it's started. I've noticed if I take the food away they stop coming around pretty quickly. I suppose with all the flavors of syrup the truck smells pretty good to the bees. Not sure what else he could do. My suggestion would have been to move a block or so away every other day. Close enough that the "regulars" know where you're at, but far enough the bees might take awhile to figure it out?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I've been a beekeeper for three years and I can tell the difference between honeybees, wasps and yellowjackets. 

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you don't. Only that most people who are not beekeepers don't.

>This is a mobile truck snow-cone vendor that sets up in a designated lot. I was there getting a snowcone and I saw honeybees everywhere, and the proprietor told me it is a big problem causing his customers, most of which have children, to freak out when the bees go for their snow cones. 

That is not unheard of. It's just more commonly yellow jackets.


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## Boomhawr (Jul 28, 2014)

Hmmm. I've had bee's crawl into my Dr Pepper can before.... but never a yellow jacket. Also, it was alwas bee's at the Dr Pepper warehouse i worked at 18 years ago.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I work as a gardener part-time and while cutting box trees I am often attacked by wasps nesting inside.
Also some times after checking my AMM they chase me too.
I have a little bottle of oil of clove, just open it and away they go.
I don´t know whether it helps in this case .
It has a special smell...
Sibylle


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

I think this is a good point... the bees have a great sense of smell, so even with no return visit, if the hives foragers are all out in a dearth searching, they'll find this place. Trapping/killing them isn't sustainable either. Repelling them all together sounds like a better option. I wonder if BeeQuick or similar could be soaked into pads left around the truck to repel the bees entirely (or mostly).


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

A few thoughts...

Without a positive feedback loop in the recruitment, this source should be highly selected against (at least after an initial trapping getting all the already recruited foragers). If it is such a dearth (or so densely populated with bees) that there is no other appreciable forage is avaialable, one might begin to wonder what the point of having bees there is.

Trapped bees need not be 'killed' necessarily...perhaps they can be treated like bees trapped in bee lining...they can be removed and placed somewhere where they can gorge, and recruit to the new location....or they could be added to hives that are '50 miles away' for extra foragers.

It would be difficult to complain about having one's bees being trapped (even if killed) if they are actually being a problem...would a nearby beekeeper say, 'hey, don't steal my bees that are bothering your customers at your business'.

Imagine a hotdog stand with packs of hungry feral and domestic dogs hanging around scaring the customers and trying to steal their hotdogs. Should the business owner have to tolerate this because there are feral dogs in the area, and the kept dogs aren't fed enough to keep them from being a nucense.

This guy is trying to make a living doing something pretty reasonable, and I assume he is paying to be there, and looses money when customers are freaked out by bees. What do you want him to do? If they are kept bees, then clearly they are eating sugar syrup anyways (at the snowcone stand) (and probably storing colored syrup)....this isn't 'good' for anyone execpt the beekeeper that isn't buying sugar or feeding back honey.

One thought would be to make it a feature...add an observation hive, and offer to wholesale him your honey. 'Free range apitherapy clinic/snow cone stand'....add a rocket pop that looks like elvis crying and you have a tourist attraction!

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Some years ago we had a trucking company drop a barrel of honey that was enroute...it was about 40 miles from here...about 2/3 of a barrel spilled on a loading dock.

Reports were that it was a mess with all kinds of yellow jackets and bees. We briefly considered bringing hives down to rob some of it, but decided that since it was 40 miles away, we were better off not having our bees involved in any way in case someone got hurt or a neighbor complained.


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## Phesic (May 8, 2015)

The BeeQuick is a good idea. It has a lemony smell now too so it should be fine to have around the truck.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Phesic said:


> The BeeQuick is a good idea. It has a lemony smell now too so it should be fine to have around the truck.


What`s that?
Sounds great!
I could use this in our wildlife park. It`s the same problem, fortunately the bees have so much flow they don`t pester.
But people are afraid of the wasps and poisons are used.

When I started beekeeping there (my bees are some 300m away, nobody is able to reach them) I distributed some flyers telling everybody how useful bees are and how to distinguish them from other insects.
And what to do when discovering a swarm.

Maybe you can do this at the snow cone stand, too, you already told them, the bees are yours. So no hiding it now.
People are mostly openminded about the work of bees in our food chain if you inform them.
Sibylle


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## Boomhawr (Jul 28, 2014)

Actually.... I think he said the bee's are NOT his. That his are kept many miles away.


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## Boomhawr (Jul 28, 2014)

Ryan M said:


> I am a beek and happened to get a snow cone there and got to talking with the proprietor after seeing some bees (not wasps) buzzing around. I actually live in South Austin and keep my bees about 50 miles away out in the country, so they're definitely not my bees!


Yep. See? NOT his. His are 50 miles away.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Phesic said:


> The BeeQuick is a good idea. It has a lemony smell now too so it should be fine to have around the truck.


lemony? It's smells like almond extract . Lemony would attract bees that is why lemongrass oil works on swarm traps.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'd expect that to work about as well as spraying insect repellent around your summer home....in the swamp.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

deknow said:


> I'd expect that to work about as well as spraying insect repellent around your summer home....in the swamp.


:lpf:

*Yep. See? NOT his. His are 50 miles away.*

Oh I forgot.
So why is he involved?
I would just eat a snow cone every other day and be happy.:scratch:


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## Ryan M (Jan 16, 2013)

Oh I forgot.
So why is he involved?
I would just eat a snow cone every other day and be happy.:scratch:[/QUOTE]

I'm involved because I am a beekeeper, who likes snow cones from the vendor in my neighborhood, who is having a problem with either someone else's bees or feral bees. The vendor wanted help in keeping said bees from mobbing his customers, so I told him I would consult this forum. I don't know where the bees are coming from; they are not mine.:applause::applause: :applause:


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Did we help you?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

deknow said:


> Imagine a hotdog stand with packs of hungry feral and domestic dogs hanging around scaring the customers and trying to steal their hotdogs. Should the business owner have to tolerate this because there are feral dogs in the area, and the kept dogs aren't fed enough to keep them from being a nucense.
> 
> This guy is trying to make a living doing something pretty reasonable, and I assume he is paying to be there, and looses money when customers are freaked out by bees. What do you want him to do? If they are kept bees, then clearly they are eating sugar syrup anyways (at the snowcone stand) (and probably storing colored syrup)....this isn't 'good' for anyone execpt the beekeeper that isn't buying sugar or feeding back honey.


I actually (kind of) agree with this approach. My only concern is that if you follow this logic and then apply it to a slightly different scenario, for example, bees mobbing your neighbors swimming pool, or their picnic table, etc. Does the same approach seem justified? In my mind it kind of does. Logically I see no difference between impacting a business man's ability to make a living and your neighbor being able to use their swimming pool without having to fight thirsty honey bees. 

Now here's where it really gets sticky, what about the farmer that's trying to make a living and protecting their crops? Everyone is up in arms when their bees get sprayed (myself included). Of course there are label laws, but if you read them carefully, (on some products) there are clauses that give great latitude on the accepted use of these chems. If you're wondering, there are clauses on economic thresholds that basically give full authority to spray when needed, again, on some products only. Bees see no boundaries and because of this they are almost always in places where they can, and sometimes do, become someone else's liability. 

Sorry to potentially derail the snow cone issue at hand, but this, at least to me, touches on a much bigger problem - one we'll surely be talking about for the foreseeable future.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'd rather see bees trapped and killed (which takes some work) than do the obvious thing and put out poison honey...trapping selects against the forage location and doesn't bring poison back to a hive (where someone might eat the honey)....bait and poison both selects for the foraging location and brings poison back to the hive.

I think if you keep bees in populated areas it is your responsibility to make sure they are not a nusence.

WRT farming practices, I agree that it seems the EPA along with the national and state pollinator programs are increasingly hinting that they will allow emergency use where bees and pollinators will be exposed (maybe 48 hours to move honeybees)....but i have yet to see it on a label...can you cite an example of what you are talking about?

But in the end, 'the label is the law'....if the pesticide is being used according to the label, there will be no liability to the person using it.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

deknow said:


> ...can you cite an example of what you are talking about?


At the risk of derailing this thread further...

Here it is: http://blog.extension.uga.edu/gradyag/2014/05/new-neonicotinoid-pollinator-protection-labels/

The text in question is:

"The application is made due to an imminent threat of significant crop loss, and a documented determination consistent with an IPM plan or
predetermined economic threshold is met. Every effort should be made to notify beekeepers no less than 48-hours prior to the time of
the planned application so that the bees can be removed, covered or otherwise protected prior to spraying."

Several problems exist:

1) Who is assessing the economic threshold. Turns out that, in practice, the farmer is the one who, without the need of an independent party, is making this assessment. This is basically the fox guarding the hen house. 
2) The farmer can claim that they weren't aware bees were present. Enforcement is really a joke. I have yet to hear (at least locally) of any farmer getting fined for misuse. Even if they were to get a fine, its in the hundreds of dollars, hardly a deterrent. 
3) 48 hours notice? Really, I'm going to move all my colonies within a 2-mile radius of cotton or otherwise "close" them up for 5 days? If moved, where are we going to move them? Many of us live in cotton country, where safe havens simply do not exist.

It is the paragraph above that takes the teeth out of any restrictions. When you read these labels, it all seems great until you get to this paragraph and then you realize that its basically a joke.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

deknow said:


> But in the end, 'the label is the law'....if the pesticide is being used according to the label, there will be no liability to the person using it.


Almost missed this part. Certainly there is liability, as it takes many forms. Just like the homeowner wants to swim in his pool that mobbed by bees at noon, Bubba wants to spray his cotton at about 1:00 pm, just like his daddy did. He certainly doesn't want to hop on the sprayer after dark and potentially risk his equipment and crops.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

deknow said:


> I think if you keep bees in populated areas it is your responsibility to make sure they are not a nusence.


'Keep' bees... 'make sure'.... Did I miss this in all the books I've read? Try as I might, my bees do as they wish, certainly never what I wish!! I see a valid point with respect to NOT luring them in with baits, feeders, etc. That's just asking for MORE trouble. Why reward them for the visit... or worse yet, poison them for it. Trapping does make some sense as only those finding this place will be caught, and won't return to bring more... Still that's not the whole answer. Trapping bees will be of little use when there's a delicious scent of syrup traveling for miles. I still argue that the vendor has some responsibility to mitigate the attraction to the bees, as they may live 'unkept' in a tree nearby. They really are HIS problem. On that point, I have no idea how you would repel bees from syrup, a bar-b-q stand, or other tasty attractions. The smell goes for miles on the wind. The trap is liable to collect a massive amount in just a day during a dearth. Just as a thought, if trapping.... Maybe the bees could be released at the end of business to return to their hive... unrewarded, but alive. Even if they tried to return, the stand would be gone.


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## Phesic (May 8, 2015)

Sorry. The swarm attractant smells like lemon oil. The bee quick stuff does smell like almonds. Here is a link to it:
http://www.bee-quick.com/


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