# oxalic acid vaporisor



## buzzhageman (Jul 25, 2011)

what are peoples experiences with this as a varroa treatment and where can i purchase one if I decide that this might be a good method? Thank you greatly in advance with responses


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I have never used it, would like to try it one day, if i can get up the nerve too. I have heard some things about it which are good and bad.
1. use only once with current queen
2. use after brood production stops. This can bee good and bad. Good to get the mites because they cannot hide in the cells. Bad because when brood production is done, there is nothing that can be done to reverse any mite damage already done.


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## buzzhageman (Jul 25, 2011)

honeyshack thanks for the response! What is meant by use only once with current queen? Just went to a bee class an a doctor lectured on its use and highly recommended.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Oxalic acid is not approved for bees in the US. Some of us have used it with success. If I had a significant problem I would use it once a week for 3 weeks to get most of the mites on the brood. I have not experienced queen problems or brood problems with this method. It is also excellent once the brood production stops, however, the winter bees are all born before this and can be impacted by the mites and the virus they carry. Now is the time, in my area, to be killing mites with this or some other method.

You can buy one here: 
http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/vaporizer.html


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

I have been useing this method for a few years now and except for the required 3 trips @ 7 day intervals it work great and cheap. Some corrections that were stated above are it can be used over and over not once per current queen and it is used while brood production in is full swing. These statements are true for oxalic dribble but not for sublimination. Oxalic does not penetrate capping so this is the reason for 3 treatments. Cost per colony is just a couple of pennies. I would recommend a 12 volt burner not the propane torch type. I have a great effective system that I use useing dollar store timers preset to 10 minutes and one preset to 2 minutes. When I pull into a yard I place a 10 minute timer on top of 5 colonies and a 2 minute timer on my truck battery. I fill the burner, slide it into the 1st colony and seal it up. To seal I use carpet foam in the enterence and duct tape on top enterences. I hook the burner to the battery and start the 2 minute timer. It takes 2 minutes to burn the acid. When this timer beeps I disconnect the battery go to the colony start the 10 minute time on top of it, pull the burner and reseal. The colony need to stay sealed for a full 10 minutes. I cool the burner down with a damp rag, refill, put into colony #2 and start the whole process over. I will be on colony #5 when colony #1 finishes it 10 minutes sealed. I can finish a 20 colony yard in less that 1 hour


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## Il Postino (Apr 11, 2011)

I went to the Shaw.ca website and though they sell the vaporizers they don't sell oxalic acid. I could make a vaporizer but obtaining the active ingredient would be a lot harder. Where can you buy oxalic acid in the US?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Any lumber yard or box store... it's wood bleach. Be sure to read the label so that there is nothing else added.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

I have used the oxalic acid vaporizer for many years now and have not had any problems that I know of. I use the propane torch to heat it up. Last time I used it was on a hive that had mites and a few SHB. I decided it was best to kill off the mites so they would be good and strong to take on the SHB.. OH BTW, very important, don't get it on your skin and wear a good mask when heating the oxalic up. YOU DO NOT want to breath any of the vapors. and by good mask I mean one with the cartridges on each side.

ROd


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It is important not to breath the vapor but it's not that hard to avoid and doesn't require a mask, it DOES require you to pay attention to the wind and it's helpful if you have the electric vaporizer and long enough wires to stand back. I would always light a smoker and pay attention to the drift of the smoke to insure you are upwind.

As to effectiveness, in my experience I'd say it kills 90% or more of the phoretic mites and by all accounts avoids the damage to the Malpighian tubules (kidneys) which dribbling the acid causes. In other words you can only dribble once without shortening their lives too much to get them to spring. You can vaporize several times. To be most effective it needs to be done when there is little or no brood in the hive. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#varroa

My concerns are that the acid totally disrupts the microbes in the hive with a drastic shift in pH.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmorethan.htm


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## buzzhageman (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks all!!!
Michael in my short time as being a bee keeper it is amazing how many times the answer is a choice of picking between the lesser of two evils. Not always a black and white issue either


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

As MB stated electric keeps you away. With 20ft of lamp cord on my 12volt I can always get my truck close enough, but stay back far enough to stay out of that invisable vapor trail. Even with that I have had a few time when the wind would shift and I would get a whiff. Its not going to kill you out in the open but it really takes your breath away. There is a couple of web sites showing the use of copper pipe and propane torch burners. They are cheap to build but I wouldn't want to be that close. My burner cost 85.00 out of canada and was money well spent and as stated wood bleach is the product at about 7.00 a small tub that will last for years


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

DAP brand wood bleach, true value hardware store, $ 7.00


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

I got one of the kits from the link in Cam's post above. I used it and found it to be very effective. After 3 treatments of each hive there were virtually no mites left. Several hives went down to ZERO drops in 24 hours on a sticky sheet. All the colonies but one survived the following winter so I think the downside is 
relatively low. I recall it has been approved for several years in many European countries. Cheap, Effective, can be used repeatedly, can be used any time of year.

Edit PS get VERY limp flexible wire to connect to your battery. I made the mistake of using a cable that was too stiff
and while manipulating the rig, I dumped the powered acid a few times and the heater came off the bottom plate. It was suggested by the guy that makes it to use heavy speaker wire.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

As stated above by Brent use very limp wire. I used lamp cord. The same stuff that is used on your livingroom lamps. You can buy it by the foot at the hardware store. I use 20 ft. I attached 2 battery charger size allegator clips to it. My mite treatment kit is a old 12 pack cooler. It has a tub of acid with measureing spoon, a doz 2" X 16" carpet pad strips, a roll of duct tape, 1/2 doz 10 minute timers, one 2 minute timer and the burner.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Since you need to plug the front entrance to use, can you use this with screened bottom boards?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

One more question .......does one need to test for V to use this? Is it safe to just go to your apiary and treat them all?


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

I use screened bottoms too, so 

The heat from the vaporization will cause the vapours to drift up and out the top vents. I put a small tarp over the complete hive to keep the fumes in ... for about 15 minutes.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Looks like oxalic works better than formic in colder weather. Would kinda like to catch a bit more of the golden rod flow but dont want to miss the window of opportunity. Any experience with bee mortality?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

snl said:


> One more question .......does one need to test for V to use this? Is it safe to just go to your apiary and treat them all?


 It's safe to use. But I would make sure I had mites before I treated.


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

Doesn't kill alot of bee's that I have seen, don't fart around to long, you need two rounds of brood after treatment before the cold.
I also have screened bottoms and use the slide in tray along with foam chunks to block off any openings. Don't forget the inner cover hole and any top entrances.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't know about that - I did it once in December last year (due to farting around) when my hives were pretty much broodless - did it twice in November the year before. All 10 were strong in the spring and still going like gangbusters - no losses period. 

I used another different treatment in August (this year and last) to knock down the mites for the fall build up - 30 ml (1 oz) thyme essential oil + 130 ml food grade mineral oil saturated into about 15 paper towels 1/4 fold and put on top of brood frames, repeat in 2 weeks ala apiguard.

Very low (or zero) bee/brood kill for either. Although if any bees somehow get trapped on top of the pad they're gonners, but that would probably be true if it was just a plain paper towel.


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

That's way to late for us to be fooling around. Here, if you go into winter with a heavy mite load they won't be around in the spring!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

tefer2 said:


> That's way to late for us to be fooling around. Here, if you go into winter with a heavy mite load they won't be around in the spring!


I agree with that. 
We are going to do thorough mite counts next week and pull honey the long weekend. We _could_ get a long fall harvest but also could have a hard frost that shut down everything by mid September. It really wouldn't be a good gamble to put off treatment: we have all the honey we need so getting them through winter is the priority.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

I also agree with Tefer2 My mite treatments will start this weekend and be done by the 2nd weekend in Sept.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I agree that you should do something now (or a couple of weeks ago actually) - as I indicated. You need healthy bees for the fall build up. What I was trying to say is that there doesn't have to be more brood cycles after you use OA treatments. In other countries they usually use it during late fall broodless periods. 

You don't want to start the fall build up with mite infested hives though - so it's high time to do *something* if needed. But you don't want to use the same treatment exclusively over and over though no matter what it is - lest your mites develop resistance to it.


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## Karen Amelia (Oct 4, 2009)

I know this is an old and cold thread but relevant to my current question. I am sold on the efficacy of oxalic acid vapor, which I did last November. However it appears some mite treatment is needed in between Novembers, in particular before the winter population buildup. Does anyone here just wait and only treat in the fall with oxalic, and does anyone else do a mid-season treatment with some other product? I have a lot of deformed wings showing up now on two strong hives and worry that the winter brood is being decimated. Worried about waiting until the brood are all hatched out, but the only thing I could feel comfortable treating with right now is MAQS. Thoughts/suggestions, anyone?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

It would have been better if you had done whatever you were going to do about a month ago, but if you are going to do an OA vapor treatment you can go ahead and do one now and another one between Thanksgiving and Christmas. That is the upside of vapor - you can do it more than once. You apparently shouldn't do trickles more than once a year.

You are correct though that you don't want to do the same thing exclusively over and over. Personally I did an appiguard like thymol treatment in August to reduce the mite load before the fall build up.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

I would say that if you have DWV showing up, that you should treat now (make sure supers are off) I treated a hive in aug (but I took the supers off). Then treat again in a week and then again a week after that. You need to knock the you know what out of the mites so your queen and can make some nice healthy bees by winter. This should get you a couple cycles of brood with less mites. I don't think my queens are going to shut down anytime soon, we are supposed to have nice weather for another month or so. Granted I am in MIssouri, but I'm guessing your weather is somewhat similar. If need be I would feed to stimulate some extra laying to get those extra healthy bees. Make sure you wear a mask please.
Rod


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## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

I would say if you have dwv now don't waste your time and money treating it is very unlikely the hive will survive the winter even with treatment. Start lining up replacements now for them next spring.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Oh sure just give up. And really, time and money??? Oxalic acid costs what 9$ for a tub that will last a lifetime. The plumbing parts another 10 or 15$. Then about 10mins per treatment. Save the bees if you can. I have had hives show DWV in sept and treated aggressively with the Oxalic acid and shazaam they survived and produced honey for me the next year and they are still kicking now.


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

My question does the heating process damage the screened bottom?
Also, someone mentioned the heat could damage frames and wax!
That poster even said it was possible to set a hive on fire!


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

OAV will not damage the screen on ScrBB. Do not push the vaporizer into bridge comb. If you feel "resistance" when inserting the vaporizer, move it to the right or left to avoid the burr comb. Inserting a hot vaporizer into wax is asking for trouble.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Karen Amelia said:


> I know this is an old and cold thread but relevant to my current question. I am sold on the efficacy of oxalic acid vapor, which I did last November. However it appears some mite treatment is needed in between Novembers, in particular before the winter population buildup. Does anyone here just wait and only treat in the fall with oxalic, and does anyone else do a mid-season treatment with some other product?


I do a series of treatments of OAV (once every 7 days for three weeks,) this regimen captures the brood cycle and kills the mites as they are emerging with the brood) right after I pull my supers (which here in SC is in about a week). Mites are phoretic 7-14 days after emerging with the brood. Treating once every 7 days for 3 weeks will kill the vast majority of the mites that were on the bees when you did you first OAV then the succeeding treatments will kill the vast majority of the mites that emerged during the treatment period.

Then I treat (once) again in the fall/winter when the brood is at it's lowest point. If my hives are in close proximity to others, in the spring, I may treat again. I open drone brood at that time (since it is plentiful) and look for mites. If I find them, I treat.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I only treat when mite counts warrant treatment.


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