# Your opinion please - who is qualified to mentor?



## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

I have an issue with my local bee club. I've been keeping 4 springs now. When I started, i had never been around a bee, or keeper, or hive. Never had a mentor. Club has never "done"' that. Made lots of mistakes, learned from them, continued on.

I love to teach. I didn't want anyone to have to learn beekeeping the way I did so I asked the then president if he cared if a couple of us offered to have a regular, on-going meet-n-greet to be available to answer any questions new beekeeper a might have. My philosophy is I know a lot more than someone who knows not one iota. And I know when to say "I don't know." The then president gladly obliged. Fast forward, and a new president has been elected with a new VP. And they have it out for me! (It's not paranoia if they are really after you.)

They have not ever called - only emailed. They have told me I have no right to do what I'm doing and that the teaching should be left to the older beekeepers and that I have "overstepped your bounds!"

Let me restate. Not one of these "older" beeks has ever stepped up to do this. I had asked for help. Made countless suggestions. No one ever did anything to offer mentoring. So I stepped up. 

I would like to know if you think a "relative beginner" can be an effective mentor. Now, I've been around enough newbies to see that we all learn at different paces, but suffice it to say I've got lots to learn but have learned lots. And tons of it had been here because I had no other mentors. 

Opinions please. I personally am floored by this. Thanks, Cindi


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

If you know more than the person you are helping....and you know enough to know you don't know it all, you are qualified to help.

It is hard to know what is really going on from one person's interpretation (they may have specific concerns about specific perceived bad advice that has been given to a specific person...I have no way of knowing).

But, if things are as cut and dried as you present them, I would ask (via email, to all the board members...copying the emails you have been getting from the Prez and VP) for specific information on what regulations or club bylaws you are violating. When it is clear there is nothing you are doing wrong, ignore them and do your thing...with or without their support. If anyone hands out fliers at meetings (bees available, equipment for sale, etc), you should be able to pass out your own so that people can find you even if you are not allowed to announce things at meetings.

deknow


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

Agree with deknow. Let the whole board see their emails and ask for specifics in a very pointed way. Keep asking for specifics until they provide them or back off.

One other suggestion. Not that you want to stop doing what you're doing, or should have to, but at the same time if they're pushing to "allow the older beekeepers" to mentor, let them know that when the older beekeepers do in fact step up to mentor and publically offer this at the meetings, you'll then consider defering to them for this valuable benefit to new beekeeper members. This puts all the work on their shoulders to cause this to happen.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

deknow said:


> If you know more than the person you are helping....and you know enough to know you don't know it all, you are qualified to help.


Thank you for that. That is how I feel too. Sorta feel like I must be crazy for feeling that way. 



deknow said:


> But, if things are as cut and dried as you present them, I would ask (via email, to all the board members...copying the emails you have been getting from the Prez and VP) for specific information on what regulations or club bylaws you are violating. When it is clear there is nothing you are doing wrong, ignore them and do your thing...with or without their support. If anyone hands out fliers at meetings (bees available, equipment for sale, etc), you should be able to pass out your own so that people can find you even if you are not allowed to announce things at meetings.


Excellent suggestion! We meet tomorrow. I think I'll do that today. 

What's so crazy is this is a project already given approval (multiple emails went out and was discussed at meetings) and they are acting like they didn't know anything about it. They both missed a number of meetings last year and its possible they missed those. 

Thank you for that input!!


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Libhart, I pretty much did that in response to the first email they sent me. I told them, very briefly - because I was so mad I didn't want to say what I was really feeling! - why I had originally wanted to help newbies and suggested that they join the meetings or even take them over - as long as someone does it. They ignored me and wrote a stronger email. Also told me to "be sure to come early to the meeting, we have questions for you"! Not a request mind you. Told me. Yeah, that works.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you meet-n-greets are occurring at the facility that the club uses for meetings, during the time that those facilities are reserved for the club, then the Officers of that club do have a right to control activities that happen during those times.

*However*, to me it sounds like it is time for an open discussion with the membership. Get the topic put on the agenda, if that is the procedure used. If the membership wants to have these events continue, the officers need to get out of the way, or explain their objections. Otherwise, its time for new officers. Failing that, maybe its time for a new local beekeeping group.

If beekeeping clubs do not accommodate the needs of *new *members, they will drift elsewhere. Eventually there will be nobody left but the old heads, and they eventually _all die_.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'd ask for the questions in writing, and that they be copied to the board....I would make the request via email sent to the board.....if they are good/appropriate questions, no one need be embarrassed. 

Deknow


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Anyone need a Doctoral Thesis? A great one is obvious. Why does beekeeping attract such a horde of overinflated, insecure egos? Is it the formic acid? Some vapor off fresh honey. I admit being an opinionated curmudjeon but that seems to be almost uiversal!


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

meeting in your area must be a lot more formal than it is in my area. Ive been to 2 different beekeeping groups and both have been open and welcoming. One is considerably bigger than the other in members, I get more out of the smaller group. Maybe others in your group feel the same, and maybe its time to "swarm" and start your own hive. New groups grow fast, new beeks are eager to learn. Perhaps consider it, IF the old group is more than 50 members


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I think the club is out of line. Personally I would look into joining a different club if one is available, or may be given your willingness to help you should form and alternative club.

One of the guys that teaches our New Bee course is only 3 or so years in himself. For a volunteer position the club should be taking any knowledgeable member who is willing to devote the time. Being part of a club there is no reason you can't call in backup if you face a situation you are unsure about. I see no problem with somebody new to bees being a mentor. And 4 years experience isn't really what I would consider a newbee.


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## Benthic (May 1, 2011)

deknow said:


> If you know more than the person you are helping....and you know enough to know you don't know it all, you are qualified to help.
> <snip>


This...exactly. 

On the issue of e-mails and their "request" that you come early to the next meeting, I say give them the benefit of the doubt...for now. The written word is often a clumsy form of communication and it's VERY easy to come off sounding much harsher than you intend to. So I say, go early and hear what they have to say. This *might* all be a misunderstanding. If it's not and they do intend to shut you down, then it's time to bring it to the attention of the entire club as others have suggested here. Or just strike out on your own as a mentor. You don't need the "permission" of the local beekeeping club to help out someone else. Heck, if that were the case we'd all need the permission of our local clubs in order to be posting here. 

Brian


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

Mentoring can be more of a one to one relationship. If you are willing to help someone, offer. As a new beek I prefer to have a good two way discussion with someone freely offering their time and willing to work with a different opinion or a barage of "stupid questions", kind of like the kid in the car asking daddy "But Why".

Offer to help but don't get your feelings hurt if no one jumps up and cheers for you. People gravitate to those they like. Your biggest selling point is that you are still learning and are having the exact same experiences that they do. 

Give the old farts their due and your respect. No need to steal their thunder, remember they built the club to what it is today and you have chosen to attend the meetings. It won't be long before the powers that bee will appreciate your helpfulness and make room for you.

One thing I have learned attending club meetings and classes offered by a long time beek is that so much of what we do is "Opinion" or "give this a try". 

Good luck, take a deep breath and remember that good ideas are stolen everyday by someone higher up in the pecking order.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

There are members of my beekeeper association who have been keeping bees just 2 or 3 years who know more and are better beekeepers than some of the 40 year beekeepers.

There are other factors as well.
You get guys who do all the exams and qualifications but they are hopeless at handling or demonstrating and have no natural teaching ability.

The thing to be wary of as well is that some beekeepers have big egos and pet theories which they want to impose on others.

If you are keen to mentor and you are knowledgeable you should be getting encouragement rather than having obstacles put in your path. I have noticed that a lot of the older guys resent newcomers who are doing stuff like queen rearing which they have never bothered with.


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## fritz_monroe (May 27, 2010)

I'm a newbie that is just getting his first bees in a couple of weeks. I'd be happy to have a mentor such as yourself. For me, the biggest requirements to be a good mentor is having more experience than the person you are teaching and to know when to admit that you don't know something. I've seen far too many people who's ego has not allowed them to admit this and in turn given out bad information.

I agree with the others as to what you should do to address this. I certainly would put out there that you felt compelled to step up to do this since none of the more experienced members were willing to take this on.

Good luck with it.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I do the mentoring for our club. Our club has a few hives at the local community garden, we have one mentoring secession a month. This I guess could be called the clubs official mentoring.

But, on the other hand we have several club members that do their own mentoring secessions. Some do it every week and some do it just once a month. Most of these people have been doing it longer than our club has been around. If someone is a new beek around here there is a mentoring secession somewhere every weekend. It really works out good for someone just getting started they have several choices to choose from. They can learn from different people and get an idea how different people do things. 

I don't see how what you are doing is in anyway interfering with your bee club. If your mentoring day is on a different day as the clubs it would just give new beeks more opportunities to learn. Thats what a bee club is all about anyway right?


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

A quote from Lawrence John Connor, from his new book Bee-sentials. 

"Mentors do not need to be "old smokes" but may be just a year or two ahead of the newbee. In fact, the newer beekeepers are often great at explaining the problems and concerns they had when they started just a few years earlier. From everything from starting a nucleus or package to handling the first honey crop, these members are great. I am delighted to see teenagers teaching adults." page 192

" Mentors should be individuals whos can give up time and share their bees to train one or two individuals a year." page 192

I don't know what everyones opinion is of Mr. Connor, but you will have to concede that the man knows a thing or two about bees and has been teaching people about bees for many years.

IMHO, if you have the desire to help, and can say "I don't know the answer to that question, let me get back to you on that". then by all means work with the newer beekeepers. The boardmembers can do one of 2 things, cooperate and assist, or try and hinder you and find themselves as outcasts. New management does wonders sometimes.

I'm a third year beekeeper. I help mentor people. I was also honored by being voted in as VP of our association. New does not equal uneducated. I have 20 year beeks asking me questions because I do things they've never tried, like raising queens.

Wisnewbee

Bill Heipp
VP Marathon County Beekeepers Association


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I wonder if an underlying issue might be a difference of old and new methods. People get stuck in there ways sometimes. It could be something as simple as you are using all 8-frame mediums and they use 10-frame deeps with supers (I have no idea what type equipment you use). They could promote filling the hive with chemicals and you could be more inclined to chemical-free. In other words, they may be looking at you as a modern, "let's change the face of beekeeping" newcomer whereas they're stuck in the mud and resistant to change. It almost sounds like they're afraid of you...maybe intimidated by your more recent education. Sometimes the "masters" resent being one-upped by what they perceive to be their "student"...they feel that they already know it all and object to being "taught" by their student.

All of ya'll have a lot to offer newbees coming in...and to each other, one of those things being an exhibition of goodwill between beekeepers and a willingness to help each other...whether a newbee or experienced beek. Division weakens both.

Let them know that you respect their knowledge and experience but also let them know that respect is a two-way street.

This very well may be a case of the "good ol' boys" syndrome...an excellent tool for keeping new, interested people away.

Best wishes...stay the course,
Ed


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## honeybeebee (Jan 27, 2013)

Maybee it's gender related....drones can be pigs sometimes


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Some great input here. Helps me to know I am on the right track. THANK YOU!

I am going to write the entire board and send copies of the original emails. I like what deknow said about it being in writing. Gives me more time to prepare what I want to say too.

Graham - I know, right?! That is the only thing I have come up with is that these guys want to be the Be All. And with what I am trying to do, it also tells me they care nothing about the newbie OR the bees. 

bluegrass, I agree. I think they are out of line. No other local group tho. My hubby said "start your own." No. Not at this time. I just want to be someone who helps. I've led clubs before. It takes a lot of energy to do it well.

Brian, don't think I'll go early. I'm sorta digging my feet in. They have been very accusatory toward me - and downright disrespectful - and I would feel like I was going before the firing squad. Had they phrased it differently - like asked! - I probably would have. 

When I first started attending this club, it was most completely the old guys. I attended for a year or two without getting too involved - other than calling folks and saying HELP! After a while I saw the need for improvements and the then president was very willing to have me help. Together we implemented bylaws, name tags, a newsletter and a website. I didn't do that for applause. I did it because I saw a need, had experience, and could do it. Again, you would think that would be an obvious thing, but even the name tags took about a year to get through everyone's concerns!

Wisenewbee - that's great stuff. May have to get that book!  Yes, me too - I've already helped several beekeepers - on their site and had one come to mine. I also get frequent emails of people just asking my opinion. There are people out there wanting someone to touch base with. I wanted and needed that so badly in the beginning, which, of course, is what has driven me. 

THANKS FOR ALL THE INPUT. I know what I gotta do. I'll letcha know...:lookout:


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## BeeTech (Mar 19, 2012)

If you do choose to go early, you might want to bring a recording device with you, preferrably an unobtrusive one. There are a number of programs to record stuff with a smart phone.

Keep your answers to their questions calm, polite, and conciliatory, and, your attitude one of cooperative accomodation.

This is known as 'giving them rope'. If they choose to hang themselves with it, that is not your fault. Just don't take any rope from them if they offer it.

On the other hand they might just want to know what is going on that might be percieved to be being done 'in the clubs name'. Watching out for the clubs reputation would be well withing their responsibilities as club officers.

If you go in with a reasonable and cooperative attitude, others will either respond, or, reveal theirs as being unreasonable or uncooperative.


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## fritz_monroe (May 27, 2010)

Seymore said:


> When I first started attending this club, it was most completely the old guys. I attended for a year or two without getting too involved - other than calling folks and saying HELP! After a while I saw the need for improvements and the then president was very willing to have me help. Together we implemented bylaws, name tags, a newsletter and a website. I didn't do that for applause. I did it because I saw a need, had experience, and could do it. Again, you would think that would be an obvious thing, but even the name tags took about a year to get through everyone's concerns!


I think you have the reason right there. I think that they think that you came in and changed "their" club. They resent it and don't want that to continue.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I don't think I'd record anything...but if they know they have questions that they want you to answer (they must have specific questions if they want to meet with you), then it would be hard to come up with a reason not to let you know what those questions are...unless their intent is to blindside you, in which case, an unanswered request for the questions would make them look antagonistic rather than trying to solve problems.

deknow


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## greg zechman (Nov 2, 2010)

cindi...you dont have to belong to a club to be a mentor...there are a lot of people right here on this forum that would like your help....clubs are fun to attend ...i belong and go to 4 different clubs a month myself,but i have chosen one person on here to help me.....greg


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## Hamp54 (Feb 4, 2013)

> Brian, don't think I'll go early. I'm sorta digging my feet in. They have been very accusatory toward me - and downright disrespectful - and I would feel like I was going before the firing squad. Had they phrased it differently - like asked! - I probably would have.


Insecurity breeds contempt. It sounds like they want you to show up early for a trip to the principle's office. Isn't this club suppose to be a place to share information among folks with a common interest? I wouldn't play along either.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

I like the idea of a recording device. Hmmmm. But I also think asking them in advance what the questions are is a great idea, deknow. I just printed out my letter to proof .... think I"ll add that. Another great point.

Jeez, y'all do my heart good!


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

I agree with Sidetrack: I would NOT come early and would force them to bring it up as part of the formal session. Everything should be in the minutes and part of the record.



Seymore said:


> Libhart, I pretty much did that in response to the first email they sent me. I told them, very briefly - because I was so mad I didn't want to say what I was really feeling! - why I had originally wanted to help newbies and suggested that they join the meetings or even take them over - as long as someone does it. They ignored me and wrote a stronger email. Also told me to "be sure to come early to the meeting, we have questions for you"! Not a request mind you. Told me. Yeah, that works.


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## Ravenzero (Sep 26, 2012)

Hate to say it, but I think they are taking the "Timothy 2:12" approach.
When they said they wanted the older beekeepers to teach, they wanted the older MEN to teach.

I really think its BS abnd hope you get the rest of the club to come down on them. Im a new beek so I would take any help offered. Even from 5 year VET!


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## frazier thomas (May 28, 2012)

I'm a complete newbee myself, but I've seen similar situations in my astronomy club - a collection of people of wide varieties of skills, experience, and interests, with varying commitments of time and/or effort and/or money ... a lot like a beekeeping club if you ask me. Some people - not all, thank God! - like to be the big fish in a small pond. Non illegitimati carborundum est, or whatever the Latin saying is.

There's another saying that HR people ask job applicants: Do you have 10 years of experience, or one year of experience ten times? The advice of someone with four years of hard-earned experience could well be better than that of someone with 25 years, who only knows one way of doing things and the reason is "just because".

Good luck!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Cindy, if you want to help people nobody can stop you. I wouldn't go head to head with the officers of the club. Go back to the people that you think you have helped. If they like you, meaning they think you helped them then approach other newbies that you are willing to help. You don't need anyone's permission to volunteer help except the one you are helping.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Seymore said:


> I like the idea of a recording device. Hmmmm.


Be careful, that can be illegal. In Oregon you can tape phone conversations, however in person it is a criminal act, if the person is unaware of the taping. I would look it up before I took such an action.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

_"They have told me I have no right to do what I'm doing and that the teaching should be left to the older beekeepers and that I have "overstepped your bounds!"

Let me restate. Not one of these "older" beeks has ever stepped up to do this. I had asked for help. Made countless suggestions. No one ever did anything to offer mentoring. So I stepped up." 
_
Sounds like to me someone got their itty bitty feelings hurt and let their infantile insecurities show through. Tell them when someone steps up, you'll step down. If no one steps it up and continues to do so, keep on keepin on.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Get your smokers guys and gals, we's a goin to Garland. !!!! 
I think intheswamp hit it pretty good. Then there are the personality disorders.  Decided to participate in a local club. Two meetings and I realized my "maverick" ways were causing more harm than good with the new folks. They were being taught a certain way to keep bees. It works for us, it will work for you. Not too much deviation in techniques. We know how to solve this problem this way. It takes a lot more to learn additional "unfamiliar" and teach it. Learning one way is tough enough for new folk. Anyway,,,,not condoning what sounds like controlling behavior, just trying to offer a sort of reasoning that may be helpful in discussing the issues. 
Good luck
Rick


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Now i know why i never joined a club . Beekeepers seem to do more fighting then helping at times . I was never taught one thing by a person hands on .{just beesorce thank you.} BOOK/ FORUMS/MAGS./HANDS ON/YOUTUBE. Alot better then dealing with negative people . I been a beekeeper going on my 4th year and i'm doing just fine and no people stress to deal with. i quess i'm just not a social guy . No mentor here and glad i am self taught and it's been fun.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Cindy, if you want to help people nobody can stop you. I wouldn't go head to head with the officers of the club. Go back to the people that you think you have helped. If they like you, meaning they think you helped them then approach other newbies that you are willing to help. You don't need anyone's permission to volunteer help except the one you are helping.


very well stated ace.

cindy, don't let the politics of the club spoil your enthusiasm and love of the craft.

don't feel like you have to answer to these guys, they have no authority over you.

i think it's very generous of you to take the time to help the beginners.

neither you nor they need the 'club's' approval, it's a free country.


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## 123_Bee (Jan 30, 2012)

What a nasty situation, but it's one I think could have happened at my club a few years ago if somebody was seen to be stepping on the old guard's toes.

When I was learning we were expected to go to a 'teaching apiary' and watch, about fifteen of us at a time. The people demonstrating called themselves 'mentors', but they weren't. They were instructors who told new beekeepers the way to do things, and then expected them to go away and do it on their own. After the first meeting very few bothered, and very few rejoined the club the following year.

Fast forward a few years and the club is encouraging a bee buddy system, where beekeepers who live near each other help each other out. It doesn't matter if they're all fairly new, but it does matter if they're willing to muck in and share ideas. Some of the old guys don't like it, because it doesn't fit in with their orthodox view of the way bees should be kept.

Beekeeping itself has changed a lot over the last few years, new people bring new ideas and don't rely on the old books because they can use the internet.

If it was me I wouldn't go early to any private meeting, I don't think it's the way anybody should behave. Raise the matter at the meeting, and make sure it's minuted properly, so there's a record of what is said.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Well, I sent the letter and was surprised to receive a rather quick response, actually. My "letter has some merit." Hmmm. This time I was "asked" to meet with them - just me and the 2 men who have been addressing me "overstepping bounds." Oh, but the others on the board "could" join if they chose. I'm thinking - why the heck would I want to meet alone (without witnesses!) with these two???

And he certainly did "not want to air this issue at the general meeting." Just wonder why that would be??? I don't know enough about these situations (thankfully!) to know what should or shouldn't be brought up at meetings to the membership. Earlier today I was thinking I might bring it up at the new business section of the meeting, but I really just don't want to do this battle. I just wanted to bee - happily. 

In my letter, I did ask them to let me know what their questions were. No response. 

My first impulse is not to meet with them at all. What have I done? Nothing. They are not presenting any questions or issues. Just come so that we can "sort it out." SORT WHAT OUT? I feel attacked. For trying to help. I'm not very motivated right now. I may be more cooperative in the morning. I'm going to sleep on it and reread all these great comments and then decide in the morning. 

Almost all of your comments above state exactly how I feel and I think they are right on. 

Thanks so much everyone!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Again, we only have limited data upon which to base our comments.

1. I'm not sure where the idea that "men" are picking on you because you are a "woman" came from. I can't say it's not a factor, can't say that it is....but if they are not, and you are acting like they are, you will not win them over. In fact, even if they are, you will be in a stronger place if you simply ignore that aspect of things and and refuse to recognize such a position.

2. ...ditto with seeing (and treating this) as a battle. If you interface with other people, work within an organized framework, or want to change anything, sometimes you have to talk to people who disagree with you. They probably have an opinion about something(s) that differs from yours...so go talk about it. It doesn't have to be in secret or behind closed doors...bring one of your mentees along (go out for dinner or coffee before the meeting and show up early for the meeting together). If you are not treated fairly, point out that you asked to know what they wanted to talk about beforehand because you really didn't want to put yourself in a position to be treated unfairly.

3. Remember, they have their own opinions just as you do. No one likes to be treated as if their position is absurd. It is possible (and important) to be able to deal with people who you don't agree with....don't get so emotionally wound up. You are trying to help new beekeepers, you are doing it...there isn't really anything that can be done to stop you, so just procede knowing that you are only having a conversation...not a meeting with your boss or a police officer who is searching your house.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Duplicate


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Sometimes people make mistakes and change their view of things once they think about those things. It may very well be that these men are wanting to offer you an olive branch rather than wanting to beat you over the head with it. If so, good for them. Maybe it's a good time for you to ask them a question....whether they want you to continue doing what you've been doing or whether they want to do it. It may actually give them a way to "save face" and for you to continue with your mentoring as you have been doing. The bird hit it right in his response to you....if you want to help folks...help'em...as for as I know you don't need someone's permission to do that. Pick your fights carefully and make sure they're worth the effort. I don't think you have a fight here because I don't think these guys can make you stop what you have been doing...and I think they know that. My guess would be that these guys just wish the controversy would go away. 

It's your decision what you do. I think the guys screwed up...I think they're beginning to understand they did....and I think that you're the only person than can give them an "out".

Best wishes,
Ed


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

123_Bee,

Enjoyed and would like to commend you for the "bee buddy" concept. Would like to suggest it to my bee club board. We'r always looking to improve. Just ran 90 newbees through our beekeeping school over the last two weekends. Never saw any honeybees while hiking Offas **** or the coast of Cornwall several years ago. Lots of heather though. Can't PM you because you opted out on PM's.

Thanks.
Steve


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

GLOCK said:


> Now i know why i never joined a club . Beekeepers seem to do more fighting then helping at times . I was never taught one thing by a person hands on .{just beesorce thank you.} BOOK/ FORUMS/MAGS./HANDS ON/YOUTUBE. Alot better then dealing with negative people . I been a beekeeper going on my 4th year and i'm doing just fine and no people stress to deal with. I quess i'm just not a social guy . No mentor here and glad i am self taught and it's been fun.


I resemble that remark! Well said Glock. Ditto from me.
I've never really even attended meetings at the local clubs yet. I've been warned about them from many folks, but take that with a grain of salt. I've been a member of a Sportsmans club for many years don't want to get involved too much in the club politics. But there would surley be benifets, I've just been too busy working to go. 

I have had clubs ask me to speak and folks ask me for lessons. I've said no, I'm not ready to do that. Personal choice for me. I'm interested in teaching at some point, but not interested in being bashed. Makes it hard to step out and lend a hand.

What I do have, that I am comfortable sharing and satisfies the needs of those who want to know, is an agricultural facebook page with seasonal updates, photos, procedures, etc. Folks can check it out on when it is convienent for them at home and get ideas...or not. Leaves me to do what I do best...getting back to work! I really don't have time or desire to socialize, but can post info for anyone to view. Works good so far. I can post step by step LOCAL management chores the day I do them with photos to show exactly what it should look like. When and what I feed, mite control treatments and timing, show woodworking projects, etc. I can do it all after work in the evening without going anywhere. I just have my camera handy at all times. My husband just got me a Go Pro too, so I can do an even better job.
I simply can't possibly answer all the emails and phone calls I get from beekeepers. They assume I am more experienced than I am because I have been successful and have a lot of hives. 
I'll give you an example. When I was heavy into Archery, the local top shooter was really good about helping people. Buy this he'd say, shoot this way, use this equipment, etc. We all would do it. Then 6 months later he's say...Oh...that didn't work. That string material breaks, those bows are bad, those arrows are under spined, etc. He really was nice to help, but we all spent a lot of time and money to really no end. Our fault for assuming he knew everything. He was great to help and only had the best intentions.
I don't want to be that 'nice person' that steered people wrong. Wrong in the sense that a small detail was overlooked. Small details in beekeeping are huge.

All I will say is: 'This is what I do and here are the results' 
Here is is if you want to see 
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510

It really amazes me how many hits those really BAD youtube beekeeping videos get. There are an amazing amount of people out there thirsty for any little scrap of information. Someone's got to do it.

Those new club members typically bust their hiney to try to help, spend countless hours volunteering and then feel unapreciated when the older members don't give them what they think is their due. Those older club members see an enthusiastic newbie and just sit back and let them so all the work until the next newbie comes along. Your post is not a new one. Anyone with any age that has been involved in a club has seen your situation many, many times.
One last comment: It will sound sexist, but it is a reality. When a woman is knowledgable and admired by the men in the club it can be a bit delicate. The Last thing I want to hear is the men saying: "I went home and told my wife all about you!" Then later, when I meet the wife-she is giving me the evil eye, and rightly so. Who is this woman my man is interested in? I've learned to handle that situation well, but it will occur quite regularly. My respect for the wives is always a priority.

Getting a simple answer about human nature is as likley as getting a simple answer about bee management. It Isn't going to happen. Too many variables .


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'll also point out that I have some 'street cred' in this area, and am speaking from experience.

Ramona and I are very active in our local club...we share a board position, we bring our (significant) sound equipment to meetings and run the sound, attend most board and club meetings, I do the clubs website, etc.

Our methods and approach differs from what the club teaches....so instead of fighting it, we do our own thing (in our case it means running/financing a 6 day treatment-free beekeeping conference every year ourselves, running our own beeschool, hands on queen rearing classes and other workshops, wrote a beginning beekeeping book that has sold several thousands of copies worldwide and is used as a text book for beekeeping classes, and we speak at clubs all over the country). We don't get asked to speak at our club, or at our club's beeschool...but that doesn't prevent us from being able to have positive influence on how the club is run, and it doesn't prevent us from running our own programs as we see fit.

deknow


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

deknow, you made me look at your location to see if you were close enough for me to attend one of the 6 day conferences...little to far for me. My hat's off to you for all the work you do!!!! Ed


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Intheswamp said:


> deknow, you made me look at your location to see if you were close enough for me to attend one of the 6 day conferences...little to far for me. My hat's off to you for all the work you do!!!! Ed


Ed, we get people from all over the US, and most years one or two from Europe.
A local beekeeper (who has since become a friend _and_ a board member of the state association) did a write up of last year's conference:
http://www.beverlybees.com/northeast-treatment-free-beekeeping-conference-2012/
...and Kirk Webster's review is titled, The Best Bee Meeting I Ever Attended.
http://kirkwebster.com/index.php/best-beekeeping-meeting

deknow


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Deknow, #3 - you are right - I have been wound up over this. I know that's not the best time to respond, which is why I am waiting. 

2- I don't mind talking with people who disagree with me. I mind being attacked. Which is why it feels like a battle. 

1 - I do ignore the male / female thing. It's supposition on my part anyway. But hard to ignore their inflammatory attitudes. But I get what you are meaning overall and, despite my angry, could-care-less attitude right now, I believe you are probably right about talking with them. Ugh. Into the principal's office. 

Ed, well said and good stuff!

Deknow, just seeing ur last comment. Doesn't surprise me a bit. I can tell from your responses that you are level headed and have a good amount of experience dealing with people. 

I appreciate the advice and coaching.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

This is not the principles office! These people have no authority over you. The most they could possibly do is get you kicked out of the club (there is usually a pretty high threshold that has to be breached before that happens)...the most they could probably do is keep you from announcing or handing out filers at meetings (again, if they allow any of this kind of thing, it is really hard to deny one person).'

So relax...shotgun a beer in your car before you go in if that will calm your nerves 

Don't even think of it as a meeting, just as showing up 10 minutes early for the club meeting. If they do attack you, do something passive-aggressive like start taking notes and asking them to repeat any absurdities (3 or 4 times) as you slowly write it down word for word...you can even ask them how to spell words 

deknow (who has never been passive-aggressive in his life....NOT)


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Deknow, correct - no authority. And I've done not one thing wrong, so could not get me kicked out. (Well, I suppose stranger things have happened!) Remember, I am doing only what was already approved - by the previous president. Like - as many have pointed out - I even needed their approval. That's what's so frustrating about all this. 

Love ur suggestions - spelling words and shotgun a beer. I like ur style!

Today is the day... I'll see if these guys all of a sudden matured over night...


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I was just elected President of a newly established club, and my comments are related to my own situation and may only apply to your's somewhat. You are a doer; clubs need doers. I don't have the time, energy or inclination (even if I felt uber qualified) to take on mentoring responsibility. I'm happy to talk and answer question at meetings, but it is very rare to have someone whose schedule matches mine and the weather when it comes to bees.

My own experience starting out was co-locating hives with another newbee and journeying an hour plus to club meetings where we could meet with some of those special people who'd been keeping bees for most of their life times. Back then the idea of mentoring wasn't on our mind, but rather an opportunity to learn about keeping bees.

Certainly some of their practices I viewed as dated and not consistent with the way I wanted to keep bees. Just the other night at a bee school I was running I spoke with someone all excited about keeping bees naturally in a top bar hive. I tried to be encouraging yet realistic, while at the same time explaining that I don't have experience keeping bees in Top Bar Hives and I don't personally know of anyone in our immediate area who does.

I didn't live through the Trachael mite or Varroa invasions. The older folks did and found out of necessity what worked for them. Now we have new ways of coping with the mites. Some older beekeepers know what works for them and see no need to try anything different. Others are more curious and open. Those are the ones to seek out.

I regret that many people who start beekeeping seem to check their ability to think critically at the door. I've had all the "chemicals bad, natural methods good" debates that I want to have for my lifetime; I had one friend on Facebook this morning decrying the "Monsanto Protection Act" while another stating vigorously that no such act exists. To a certain extent I don't care any more and just want to keep bees.

I'm getting long winded here and that was not my intent. As long as you are not pushing an exotic agenda (keep varroa out of your hives using bat guano) than you are providing a needed service to your fellow club members. The members who are calling you out may have concerns about your agenda. Deknow's method for dealing with that issue is working for him. Try to understand where the older club members are coming from; It may be you're preaching from the same pulpit, then again not.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Thank you, Andrew. I am pretty much a "to each his own" person. I let people know up front that "I" do it this way, and I got to "this way" from lots of reading and not as much experience - due to my youth in beekeeping. When I feel strongly about something, I follow it with my reasoning... But I always encourage folks to read and research and find their own philosophy. 

I believe I am dealing with 2 major control freaks. (They have even made it a point to not give me any email addresses (for the newsletter) of new members that have come on since they came on board. Puh-leeze!) 

They have squashed my enthusiasm for this club. They will not squash my enthusiasm for helping people. But this dern wet blanket IS getting a bit heavy!


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

> They have squashed my enthusiasm for this club.


Just be prepared that this may actually be their intention! They may want you to "shut up and move to the back of the bus" so to speak. Or even get off it altogether.

(But then, I am definitely NOT a people person, so maybe I tend to overly suspect people's motives.)

Rusty


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Intheswamp said:


> deknow... My hat's off to you for all the work you do!!!! Ed


.
Me too!!


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

I have spoken to three people who seem experienced with beekeeping. As of today, my apiary has no bees yet (too early), but includes two langs and two KTBHs that I made. Here are the accounts of my encounters:

1) A guy that works at my company- He pretty much laughed and said that bees could not be kept without chemicals, and a top bar hive is completely ridiculous.
2) A master beek that is respected statewide- She has been completely welcoming in every way, and offered up answers to all of my questions. She got quite a laugh watching me swat at a guard bee one day when I stopped by to say hello and she was putting some fondant in a hive.
3) A local beek that keeps a small mom and pop shop for beekeepers nearby. He was completely condescending in pretty much every way. All I went there for was to order one package of bees for backup, in case the cutouts planned are not successful in populating my hives. This behavior baffled me. Catching hell while writing someone a check is a new one for me.

From this point forward, I will only speak to the female master beek and do not planning on joining a club. There is no time for this bs of looking down on others. Imagine if your son or daughter wanted to play a sport when they start elementary school, and at every turn they are told how wrong everything they are doing is, and are offered nothing but negative feedback. There would soon be no sports programs, just like there will soon be no new beeks that will stick with it long term.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...a bit of perspective here...

1. If you are new, being around other beekeepers (and bees) is invaluable. If you avoid this because you don't like the other beekeepers, you are the one losing out.

2. Some of the people that are condescending and even insulting have years of experience, and have many things to teach you whether you like it or not.

3. If you are not understanding where some of this stuff is coming from, you simply don't know enough to be able to afford avoiding these kinds of situations. Someone selling packages has already had the experience of selling a package to a new, well meaning beekeeper who plans to start out via "alternative means" based upon good information or bad...this is the same new beekeeper who will complain their bees died if they decided not to feed the package, that their bees made all kinds of cross comb in a TBH, or the queen flew off when she was direct released.

This is your own education, not your children's. Most beekeepers are going to give you the best advice they know how to give. If you can't keep your skin thick enough to benefit from negative feedback, it is you who are losing out.

Have you found other TBH beekeepers in your area that are overwintering hives? If so, you should be talking to them. If not, perhaps the same is true of the beekeepers you are talking to, and given that they have no experience with anyone overwintering a TBH in your area or with someone keeping bees alive without chemicals (and perhaps have seen enthusiastic failures). Should they encourage you to do something they are pretty sure is prone to fail?

deknow


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

@OP

Ahhhh, yes, the old "club" politics on display. Haven't read ALL the gory details of the thread, but have read enough to get the gist. Once a "club" is arranged, enter politics. I've belonged to many clubs, everything from athletic clubs to fishing clubs, and in the end they all are pretty much the same. Usually comprised of an old control group that feels a threat of some sort from new club member that really is acting out of general interest and enthusiasm. And we all wonder why some "clubs" have such a hard time retaining membership or gaining new members. The last club I was a part of was a fishing club. Being new to the area I though it would be a good way to participate in a "relaxing" activity and meet "like minds" as well as share/get fishing reports. Well, what a fiasco that turned out to be. First, no member really wants to "share" information, they all want to get information. Secondly, all those fishing reports are made mainly by new members, and once the newbies catch on (about mid-season), guess what, the fishing reports all dry up. Lastly, I knew I had outgrown the "club" when "spirited discussions" arose at every tournament weigh-in and observed a near fist-fight break out at an annual meeting. The annual dinner, well pretty much people sitting among their own "table". Mind you, I live in a retirement area of Florida and the average age of our "club" members was easily over 65. I was the youngest member of the club at under 45. 

Long story, short... most clubs = politics (eventually). Basically, many clubs equate to a high school mentality. Sometimes it's just better to pay the dues, go to the meetings and take what good information there is, use it and be done.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Seymore said:


> (They have even made it a point to not give me any email addresses (for the newsletter) of new members that have come on since they came on board. Puh-leeze!)


That is pretty hard to keep secrete. The instant they do a mass email to the members the whole list is there. Even if you are not on that list someone you know will have it. If they use the emails at all it is no longer a secrete. Besides if you are willing to help newbies, word of mouth gets around and you are more likely going to get yourself in a position where you don't have the time to help everyone.

I will give you another tip I have learned in life when dealing with adversaries. Smile at them. Nice big grin when they tell you that you can't do something. It takes one tenth the effort, lowers your blood pressure, and they don't have the fogyish idea what to do about it. It usually leaves them speechless.

I recommend a beer or two after the meeting not before if you should have that meeting. Beer breath before a serious meeting is a real no, no.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Our county club (that I talked about earlier) has over 1000 members.

The things we do ourselves are worked out between Ramona and myself only...it is much faster and we get to do what we want. We also get to pay for it all....and if we do a good job, we get to profit.

deknow


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

deknow said:


> ...a bit of perspective here...
> 
> deknow- I agree with every single thing you said and wish you lived closer to me.
> 
> ...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Acebird said:


> That is pretty hard to keep secrete. The instant they do a mass email to the members the whole list is there.


Brian, welcome to the modern internet where everything from the barbaric "BCC" method to a functioning mail list manager or mail merge plugin for thunderbird will send to your list without disclosing any other email addresses to any recipient.



> I recommend a beer or two after the meeting not before if you should have that meeting. Beer breath before a serious meeting is a real no, no.


...the point is that this is not a serious meeting!...this is a quick chat before a club meeting. If the poster is foolishly drunk, that would be a problem.

deknow


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

I'm in one of those old stodgie, clickish clubs, but you know what they are very dedicated and have kept our local club going for 80 years. 

All beekeepers are a little weird, just roll with the flow and be willing to help new folks outside of the club. Word will get out and you will have more mentees (mentalees) than you know what to do with. 

Glad their's people like you that enjoy helping.

Don


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## Ruthz (Sep 13, 2011)

Please don't let jerks get in the way of you sharing your love of bees. When I joined a beekeeping club in the Midwest in 2001, I was the only female attending the meeting as a beekeeping member, not just one of the wives who ran the "ladies auxiliary," raised money, and served coffee. This is in 2001, not 1901! I was also one of only five people under the age of sixty. All of the old farmers were nice enough, and did share some of their beekeeping wisdom, but I was clearly a confusing anomaly and no one offered to mentor me. If I were a less persistent (stubborn), person, I could easily have been discouraged and either given up beekeeping or at least given up attending club meetings. I think this happens at a lot of bee clubs.

So please don't give up or let them discourage you out of participating. We need more women beekeepers to actively teach, participate, and lead beekeeping clubs. That way the new beekeepers coming in won't have to feel so isolated whether male, female, black, white, disabled, or whatever! Good luck.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

@John - there can be much wisdom found in clubs and many years of beekeeping experience too. It is very unfortunate that you were made fun of. There is a significant disconnect that I'm trying to figure out how to bridge - the newish wisdom of the internet vs the wisdom of practical experience. Your Master Beekeeper sounds like a good person, one who knows how to work with people, and how to deliver authoritative factual information. I used the phrase critical thinking in my last post. As a new beekeeper you have to evaluate the sources of information that work for you. And it sounds like you have done just that.

(the rest is not addressed to John)

There seems to be a myth among new beekeepers that anyone who is keeping bees must think as they do. Unfortunately this is not the case; beekeepers can be just as profit motivated as anyone else, and the pursuit of profits CAN lead people in odd directions.

In order for clubs to thrive and survive they need to be attracting new members. Being condescending is an interesting way of teaching and one I can't imagine being effective. That said, it is very hard to keep a straight face when someone is presenting knowledge learned from the internet that is counter to everything you've learned from experience. If you've had a bad day, there are no guarantees that you won't take the head off the person presenting the internet based knowledge. So much depends on location. So much depends on you being able to see what you are observing. So much depends on knowing your audience and phrasing your questions accordingly.

BeeSource can be a wonderful source of information. But you can't accept everything presented as true for you in your area all the time, and you do need to at least make note of any biases that you are able to detect. Seek out information from people who are successful with strategies you don't agree with. Think!


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Seymore said:


> <snip...>
> Love ur suggestions - spelling words and shotgun a beer. I like ur style!
> 
> Today is the day... I'll see if these guys all of a sudden matured over night...


While your taking those notes be sure and have your head tilted heavily to the side, twitching one side of your lip up and down, and the eyebrow on the high side of your face arched up...a little drool coming out the corner of your mouth would add a little drama...it makes the opposition a bit unsettled....but, we don't want to get too carried away so maybe hold off on the drool.  



Andrew Dewey said:


> <snip...>
> I didn't live through the Trachael mite or Varroa invasions. The older folks did and found out of necessity what worked for them. Now we have new ways of coping with the mites. Some older beekeepers know what works for them and see no need to try anything different. Others are more curious and open. Those are the ones to seek out.


Well said, Andrew. My mentor is 79 years old, my "mentor-in-waiting" is 83 years old (my mentor's best friend). When I first started keeping bees I immediately saw that my "book learned" beekeeping philosophy was a bit different from theirs. Thankfully both of them have been very helpful and encouraging in my adventures that departed from "their way of doing things". Last Saturday I rode over to my mentor's house to leave an empty hive with him...when he gets a good swarm he's going to drop it in the box and call me...ya gotta love those local Caucasians!!  Anyhow, I picked up two boxes of mason jars from him...he's going all plastic this year (seems like something a youngun like him would do!  ). I left a couple of my boric acid ant traps with him and some bait...along with some fuzzed up Handi-Wipes for trapping beetles. He was very interested in those. I'm fortunate to have mentors with brains that are still flexible. What I'm getting at is some older beeks are "stick in the muds" while others are receptive to new ideas and are actively tinkering with new things (last year the 83 yo beek started raising queens and making nucs for sale). But, you know something?...there's younger folks that are stuck in their ways, too. 


Andrew Dewey said:


> <snip...> As long as you are not pushing an exotic agenda (keep varroa out of your hives using bat guano) than you are providing a needed service to your fellow club members


It doesn't work???....dang!!! Now where'd I put that phone number...gotta cancel that other 500 lb shipment!!!!!



Seymore said:


> <snip...>
> I believe I am dealing with 2 major control freaks. (They have even made it a point to not give me any email addresses (for the newsletter) of new members that have come on since they came on board. Puh-leeze!)!


Who is in charge of the newsletter? In the new business section of the meeting simply stand up and announce that you want to make sure everyone is getting the newsletter so they'll know of the latest "happenings"...announce that if anyone isn't getting a copy of the newletter to let you know (have some cards handy with your email address on them). Keeping those addresses from you is very counter-productive for the club.

Though I and others have, I guess, encouraged you to go easy for the time being, do be prepared that these could simply be a couple of scumbags who see their "offices" as places of power...rather than of responsibility (big difference). 

I'm not sure of your beliefs in other matters but I will leave you with a scripture reference to ponder...Matthew 10:16.

Best wishes,
Ed


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## Hamp54 (Feb 4, 2013)

I still wouldn't show up early and I would insist that their laundry be washed in public. Isn't that why clubs have a public forum…Robert's Rules of Order and all that? YOU didn't pick this fight. Make them drag it out in the open and bring copies of every nastygram you received. Read them into the record if you have to and force them to respond. Maybe they will think twice before they choose to treat anyone like this in the future. They are assuming authority that they never had…call them on it!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deknow said:


> Brian, welcome to the modern internet where everything from the barbaric "BCC" method to a functioning mail list manager or mail merge plugin for thunderbird will send to your list without disclosing any other email addresses to any recipient.


I have thunderbird but I will wager that these older people are not savy with a mail managers to know how to use them. Plus I will wager that they want everyone on the list to see the responses from the membership telling them how wonderful they are.
For every software package that there is to keep secretes there is one to collect secrete information. Nothing is secret on the internet for the average Joe Smo.

Who would get drunk with one beer? But the beer breath is hard to disguise. If it is not a serious meeting then she should definitely not meet with them.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Cindi, 

Are you discussing the Greater Hot Springs Beekeepers Association? 

http://hsbeekeepers.org/

From their webite :

Article II.** PURPOSES
The purpose of the Association shall be to:
A.*** Encourage and facilitate the interest, study and advancement of apiculture in this region
B. ***Promote the improvement of beekeeping practices for all beekeepers
C. ***Encourage and promote fraternity among members and beekeepers everywhere

I would work through this by doing the necessary club kabuki dance (if you have the energy) and work the informal side to meet, help, and enjoy beekeeping as you wish. 

Ask questions and make suggestions during the meetings so beginners can seek you out if they wish, AFTER the meeting... 

I met one of my best beek friends at a meeting years back. I saw from her reactions to a speaker that she wasn't into chemical use and was keeping bees more like I had intended. 

Don't let the club ruin your enjoyment of beekeeping. 

Invest what you can formally and attract newbies to "your side" through your participation. Newbies may find your after-meeting parking lot discussions very valuable... 

Good luck!


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I can only look at this from the perspective of a brand-new beehaver, but I've enjoyed my local club. I've met several very helpful folks; and got my first nuc from a member.

It's a very small club, only 20 or 30 members, and maybe this contributes to the pleasant atmosphere. But I have to say that the old guys don't seem to be keeping up with many of the recent developments in beekeeping. They are mostly, so far as I can tell, on the chemical bandwagon bigtime. Since I'm a lifelong organic gardener, this does not appeal to me. We had a sidebar meeting for new beekeepers at the last meeting, and the club president demonstrated how he pours Terramycin over his hives several times a year, and how to insert anti-mite strips, etc. I kept my mouth shut; there was no point in arguing, and he's a nice guy, even if I think he's wrong, and he's been doing it several decades longer than I have. I may end up deciding he's right, who knows.

The guy I got my nuc from is a really nice guy, extremely helpful, and willing to help out in any way he can. He took my wife and I around his yard, and let us get into his hives for better than an hour when we went to pick up our first bees. I learned a lot from him just in that hour. But I was too shy at first to tell him I was putting the bees in a long hive on foundationless frames, lest I be considered a moron. Later on, when I got up enough nerve to to tell him about my hive, he was fascinated to hear about using foundationless frames. He's been keeping bees for 40 years, and had never heard of doing that. And his house is full of bee books and bee magazines.

In general, as a newbee, I think it's a good idea to keep my head down. But if I find someone who is doing a no-treatment regimen successfully, I'll try pretty hard to pick their brains. I think the advice you've been given to make yourself available to folks without necessarily going through the club's procedures is good advice. Folks who need your help will find you.


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## 123_Bee (Jan 30, 2012)

Bear Creek Steve said:


> 123_Bee,
> 
> Enjoyed and would like to commend you for the "bee buddy" concept. Would like to suggest it to my bee club board. We'r always looking to improve. Just ran 90 newbees through our beekeeping school over the last two weekends. Never saw any honeybees while hiking Offas **** or the coast of Cornwall several years ago. Lots of heather though. Can't PM you because you opted out on PM's.
> 
> ...


Thanks.

I don't want to stray too far off topic, and hadn't realised I'd completely turned off PMs. On again now, I think.


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## Rusty67 (Mar 9, 2010)

Oh, Cindi! You have my complete permission to send them a copy of my recent post: A personal note to cranky old beekeepers! You go, girl!

http://www.honeybeesuite.com/a-personal-note-to-cranky-old-beekeepers/


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## Monkadelic (Feb 5, 2010)

Cindi,

I can certainly relate to a lot of what you've said, and I agree with you about the need for mentors. I've been working on getting a mentor program going in our club for over a year, and I'm just now starting to see results.

As for the stodginess, hang in there....things may just shift in lovely ways that you don't expect.


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## frazier thomas (May 28, 2012)

Bump - hoping to hear.... what happened?


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

I taught myself everything I know with the help of utube and this forum. While my club maybe great I don't really have time and enjoy learning on my own. Do what you want and don't worry about it. If you're giving misinformation or bad mouthing the club that's a different story. Go on do what your doing don't worry bout it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Can you be a mentor? What are your results.

Forget classifying people as stodgy, old, young, or whatever. Do they get great results, or do they not get great results. Find the ones with great results and do what they do.

Beware of loudmouth new beekeepers who know everything cos they read a book. They will be the death of your bees.

As to how many years keeping bees qualify somebody to be a mentor, it doesn't matter. I've known people who after just a couple of years have a pretty good understanding, and I've known people who after many years still know little. The kicker though is that nearly all of them will think they know pretty much everything.

I was contacted recently by a teenage guy just starting with bees who wanted to work with me and learn stuff. So I took him out, we did requeening, made up nucs to be sold, some queen raising, swarm control etc. He was great, slotted right in, and sucked up knowledge like a sponge. He is ready to be a mentor now, to people twice his age. Compared to other people in the club who are doing it and some of the advice they give makes me cringe.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Rusty67 said:


> Oh, Cindi! You have my complete permission to send them a copy of my recent post: A personal note to cranky old beekeepers! You go, girl!
> 
> http://www.honeybeesuite.com/a-personal-note-to-cranky-old-beekeepers/


 Very well said: "...So take care of your bees by remembering that this is not your grandfather’s planet. This is the environment we’ve provided for our bees and ourselves, and it’s often not pretty. But it is what it is. Make the best of it; learn to handle it . . . that’s the better way to bee.

Rusty"

Yes, exactly! I am glad, someone had a stamina to put it in the words. To me, it is obvious that "old" ways just do not work anymore or work in opposite direction (hurting bees)... Nevertheless, it is amusing how many people prefer to ignore the reality! Arctic is melting down... and people keep telling us that it is ... just not true, because ... they just do not believe in that or ... even better argument - they need FACTS!!!!! Same with bees - I could not tell how many people from THIS forum told me that bees are doing great and there is no problem with bees decline... Even NYTimes concerns about bees decline, but not at this forum...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/29/s...arm-on-malady.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0&emc=eta1


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Cerezha were you able to translate that Russian document yet?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

This starting to sound like Animal Farm: Bee Source Good, Real World Experienced Beekeepers Bad. I think there is a medium position there somewhere. I for one am saddened by the changes in World Climate et al, but I hardly think the answer to all beekeeper problems everywhere can be found on Bee Source. So much of what we do here is laughed at by real world Beekeepers. I've seen the eyes roll. Let's think critically, and not merely embrace the cause du jour. Bee Source is a marvelous source of information - the key phrase "a marvelous source" - not the only one.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

I think

*SEYMORE has left the building *

No post in a while? ? ?


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Andrew Dewey said:


> ... Bee Source ... "a marvelous source"....


 Agree, but also is a source of very special experience to me personally as an immigrant - I learned more about American culture at beesource than from life in US for 20 years (my cultural niche is different, I am from another planet). I think, beesource is a great source for all kind of experience.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Cerezha were you able to translate that Russian document yet?


 Hi Oldtimer. I think, you misunderstood my previous communication - I told *rhaldridge* that I would be more than happy to help if there is something, he could not understand from Google translation. I did not promise to do a translation of the whole document - I am sorry if I misrepresent myself. 

Default Re: vertical vs. horizontal movement

Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
Sergey, very interesting website. I find that Google's translation software is much improved over what it was just a couple years ago, and makes for a much more understandable visit to translated websites...

It is great! Please, let me know if you need some clarification or translation - I would be more than happy to help.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

So you are NOT happy to translate the small, 1/2 page document you spent several pages talking about?

Or, you are happy to help rhaldridge, but not me?


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Cindi,

Your name says it all. My name is Alice, By the time I joined my bee club I had already bought a hive from the least qualified beek in the state, gotten bad advice on placement, let a swarm go after the hot hive chased me (and everyone else) out of the yard, gotten a 2 frame warranty hive, built it up to 7 frames, and it got robbed out by the swarm I lost. So I joined the local bee club, and yes, I learned a few useful things, but I attended meetings for 4 or 5 months, and women beekeepers are dubiously welcome. Best bring your husband (I didn't). Finally one person volunteered to mentor me, but that hasn't worked out terribly well.

Now we have a new president, we did have a couple of pretty educational meetings, but they don't seem to be as much now. Beekeeping 101 is way below where I'm at, but it is offered, and still no real local mentoring, so I'm emailing with a lady beek up north. I won't even bother to try to enhance the club and waste my time getting them more responsive to varying levels of learning that might be needed. I don't have the time to waste.

I would definitely be polite and reasonable and cooperative, and recording the conversation is an interesting idea. If it is important to you. In my case, I have a really full life, if they are all happy, they can just be happy, and I will just learn about bees somewhere that I actually learn something.

Back to your basic question, if you have been down the path a few times and have a thorough grasp of it, you can mentor, in my honest opinion


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Well i've dealt with 3 beekeepers since i starated keeping bees 4 years ago and i must say 1 i bought bees from very mean and just hates new beekeepers {people in general} 2nd one i think alittle crazy mean and out of touch of how things are way back woods tryed to buy bees from this guy and man what a crazy deal to try hatch out no way. And one guy i got 3 nucs off of was realy nice and helpful he was like 25 the other two where in there 50s so i'm geussing it's a old male thing . I'm just glad i don't have to buy bee's ever again and deal with grumppy old men. and i learned how to do it all on my own.
BOOKS/FOURMS/YOUTUBE/HANDS ON/HANDS ON /HANDS ON/Beekeeping seems easy but you have to love what your doing or you won't get it.
The best whay to learn is hands on.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Did someone hold a gun on you and force you to buy from these crazy old mean men? Who's fault was it that you purchased bees from them?

I bought my first hive from an 83 year old gentleman who sold me a very small 8-frame colony (more of a nuc). I had to supply my own woodenware and to add insult to injury he charged me the outrageous price of $1 (1USD) per frame. He and my mentor just wanted me to have some bees to "mess with" and "get used to bees with" before I got my two main colonies in the spring. That little colony of bees grew into a fine colony and should give me a decent honey crop this year. My mentor (the 83 year old's 79 year old best friend) sold me the two established colonies...he's a very softspoken, gentle, humble gentleman and for some strange reason he listens to my new-fangled ideas about bee keeping and actually follows up on some of them. A couple of weeks ago he finally "bullied" me (after several weeks of bullying) into leaving one of my hive boxes at his house so that when he has a nice swarm in his yard he can put them in it...then I've got to go get them, bring them home, feed them up some, and if they eventually make a honey crop I'll have to harvest that...drats! he's a mean old grumpy man! He lost his wife three years ago and he still manages to keep a smile on his face...yelp, an "old male thing" I guess. I guess I'll stick with them being as I'm in my 50's and they could help me get qualified to be in the order of "grumppy old men" ...like them.

Or, these two older guys might be suffering from incurable "Southern Gentlemanitis"... 

Ed


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Wow! Lots more good stuff posted here - will have to go back and read.

UPDATE? Well, suffice it to say their tone did change. Perhaps an olive branch? I am going to try to see it as that. They had told me to come early. I did not reply. Then they "asked" me to come after the meeting. I could not but told them I COULD be there early. Then I was told they could not. I was told he thought I might want to be there for an apology.

That was the last that was said! I could not stay late. They knew that. Nothing was said to me at the meeting even though I still showed up 30 minutes early, like I normally do. And they were there. Didn't pull me to the side to grab a moment. I did get a hello from one of them. Very cordial. I replied in kind. 

I feel a bit non-plussed by the whole thing. An apology? To whom. For what? For all I know he was going to apologize to the board for getting someone's carpet dirty. Am I supposed to infer????

What is pretty interesting is what DID happen at the meeting - not related to this issue at all. But I think influenced by it. One of the people I have helped mentor is new to the area and Oh So Excited about beekeeping. We have been discussing ideas for the club, including mentoring. (By the way, I shared my letter with her - we have become good friends and she was a recipient of my mentoring. She then shared that she had gone to 3 of the older beekeepers before I stepped up to the plate and actually helped.) Anyway, she was ready to get involved in the club and presented some ideas for mentoring at this meeting. When she read her bullet list, I couldn't believe the pregnant pause! And then they said "sure!" No bickering or long discussions on how it should be done - just "sure!" And put her head of the committee! I just laughed to myself. It was as if they were afraid to Say A Word. She asked around if anyone wanted a mentor and 9 or so hands went up - about 1/3 of the people there, I would guess. I just loved that.

So...maybe the fight, if you will, created a crack long enough to let in some light. This will all have been worth it in the end.

Right now, I'm still deciding what I feel about nothing being said to me in the form of an apology, which I feel I am owed. I may just email the club and ask if anyone feels I've given bad advice "since I've been called down." I don't know. I don't think they should get away wiith treating people this way. Many people would (and probably have) turned tail and run. I sure FELT like it. Maybe I'll call it a victory since we now have an official Mentoring Committee. I'm leaning toward "leave well enough alone." And I'll see how it goes from here. Yeah, that's what I think I'll do. 

THANKS again for all the varied opinions. Like beekeeping, I like to listen to them all and then see how they fit in my always-developing philosophy. 

You guys are every one great!


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

You probably made the right decision to leave well enough alone. I have worked for most of my life in large plastics manufacturing plants and have discovered one commonality, the majority of men do not have the humility to apologize, however I for one do. The gesture of coming up and being friendly and speaking with you is as close as most will get to an apology, it is their way of saying it is over and we accept you, this gives the proud a way to save face and not have to admit that they are wrong. to push it at this point is an attack on their integrity, even if they have none, and the repercussions are generally not pleasant at all........Bill


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

a change is behavior is worth a lot more than a spoken or written apology.

sounds like everything is going to be alright.

with a group that size there needs to be more than one mentor, and new beeks should have the opportunity to glean from different approaches.

way to go cindi.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WWW said:


> You probably made the right decision to leave well enough alone.


I agree. It is likely these same people can help you or others in the future if you include them. I have found very few old beekeepers speechless. They may be set in their ways but they have experience (usually a lot) and knowledge (usually a lot). It is up to you and all newbies to grasp what they have to offer.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Well said, guys. :applause: Yeah, that feels right.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Seymore, I view your report of the business meeting as a vindication of your efforts and a condemnation of the do nothings that stood in the way of progress. At least they got out of the way and let the process begin officially. Well played. 

How are things at the club four months later?


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## pharmbee (Jun 21, 2013)

Sounds like any school board, hospital board. , whatever board. Seems like awhe lot of drama all the way around for no reason. I'd rathet get bad advice on the internet that belong to a club.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Lburou said:


> Seymore, I view your report of the business meeting as a vindication of your efforts and a condemnation of the do nothings that stood in the way of progress. At least they got out of the way and let the process begin officially. Well played.
> 
> How are things at the club four months later?


Thanks, Lee. In answer to your question, hmmm. 4 months later, still not a thing being done for mentoring. I just keep plodding along thinking something will change. I do hear mentions here and there of some of my suggestions... but apparently it is much better coming out as "their" idea. Oh so typical. Who cares? (It does feel a bit disrespectful, but if the goal is accomplished, again, who cares? Just get it done!) I just think it's funny and just want the people helped. I've already seen people drop out due to frustration. So sad cuz very few will ever try it again. 


On the very plus side, the new president is doing a great job with the meetings, so that's been great. 


Thanks for asking!


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Rusty67 said:


> Oh, Cindi! You have my complete permission to send them a copy of my recent post: A personal note to cranky old beekeepers! You go, girl!
> 
> http://www.honeybeesuite.com/a-personal-note-to-cranky-old-beekeepers/


Rusty! My favorite online blogger! How did I miss your reply in here?? I'm going to go read this ASAP. If it's appropriate, I may have to just throw it out there as a "great read" (since all your posts are!) recommendation in my newsletter. :lookout: Haaaaaa! Thanks!! Sorry I missed this but maybe the timing is better 4 months later anyway.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

pharmbee said:


> Sounds like any school board, hospital board. , whatever board. Seems like awhe lot of drama all the way around for no reason. I'd rathet get bad advice on the internet that belong to a club.


:thumbsup:
It's to bad I love to talk bee and would love to listen to any bee keeper that's been at it for over 10 years but it seems a lot of guys have there way and there way only and with the time and money it takes to go to the meetings just seem like a waste of time .
Plus what can a class tech a guy like me 4year beekeeper ??
I make my own queens/nucs/ and get honey / I have not lost one hive this year yet and all are strong{25} and all I have learned has come from books /you tube/BS and the bees themselves plus all the great blogs and inter net sites. So why deal with the bull crap of a club? Guess there good for new beekeepers but you sure don't need them. Just saying and I mean that in the nicest way possible.:shhhh:


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

This is addressed to Glock (the first paragraph at any rate) but applies universally: Seek out classes that are targeted to your abilities. Is there an intermediate bee school in your area? In the land grant states there is a strong Cooperative Extension system that I have found happy to work with beekeepers to offer courses. Are you into internet learning? Check out Dave Tarpy's Bees network http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/BEES.html at North Carolina State. Read books that make you think. Not all clubs are created equal - I hope not, I'm President of my local club and we are newly started this year.

I hear lots of *****ing about clubs on BS - and Seymore's experiences shouldn't have happened - but don't castigate all clubs. They are the one offering beginner bee school and coordinating bee orders. I participate on BS in part to advance my skills and my knowledge - it is preparation for me for teaching bee school and the club.

I will be hosting an open hive at my place in early September and I'm determined to make it fun and educational. {And as you probably know from my posts understanding the biology for why something is done is very important to me} Clubs need not just people with ideas but people who can put those ideas into action.

Just don't come in having spent 10 minutes reading about bees on the Internet feeling empowered to tell me that everything I know about beekeeping is wrong. I promise you that is not a good opening line.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Andrew Dewey said:


> Just don't come in having spent 10 minutes reading about bees on the Internet feeling empowered to tell me that everything I know about beekeeping is wrong. I promise you that is not a good opening line.


 I'm guessing that's was not addressed to me if so you took it wrong I listen to most here on this form and you are one of them and I thank you . I have been learning about bee keeping for almost 5 years and would never empower myself to ever give advice that I was not for sure about and i'm sure you know what your doing so if I offended you sorry .


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

GLOCK said:


> :thumbsup:It's to bad I love to talk bee and would love to listen to any bee keeper that's been at it for over 10 years but it seems a lot of guys have there way and there way only and with the time and money it takes to go to the meetings just seem like a waste of time . Plus what can a class tech a guy like me 4year beekeeper ??
> I make my own queens/nucs/ and get honey / I have not lost one hive this year yet and all are strong{25} and all I have learned has come from books /you tube/BS and the bees themselves plus all the great blogs and inter net sites. So why deal with the bull crap of a club? Guess there good for new beekeepers but you sure don't need them. Just saying and I mean that in the nicest way possible.:shhhh:


I'm too am a 4yo beekeeper. Almost everything I have learned I have acquired the same way you - internet, forums, books, etc. But it was a MAJOR struggle for me (the scatterbrained perfectionist). I've been married 33 years. I tell people I'm still a beekeeper and I'm still married because I'm stubborn. I head down a path and it's usually very difficult to push me from a decision I've made. There are a lot of people who can't say that. I had a sweet lady call me the other day saying "Please tell me this is going to get easier!" She was on the verge of giving up. She needed a mentor!! Mentors make it easier. Plain and simple. I see our club as doing a HUGE disservice by not actively pursuing a program to help newbies (and young kids). The meetings are great, but 30 days is an eternity to wait if you have just gotten your first hive of bees. I remember all too well! 

Re: old timers . . . I did have an old timer thank me for mentioning at a meeting one night that during a drought the queen starts conserving resources and can nearly (if not completely) stop laying eggs. He thought his queen was gone. He started feeding. Voila - eggs! (I was very surprised this fella even said anything to me because he is as "good-old-boys network" as they come.) Anyway, just because someone is an old timer doesn't mean they can't learn something new. I AM NOT SAYING I AM THE ONE TO BE TEACHING....! And, I'm not saying a newbie can "very often" teach an old timer. HOWEVER... obviously by this example, not everyone learns "all the tricks." He didn't. I would have thought that was something EVERY old timer would have known. 

I also am not at the point that I would even dare say that I, a 4yo beek, couldn't learn from a class. I still don't know about breeding queens and different varieties of bees, just to name a couple of examples. I still have a hard time figuring out when the flow is on. When it's stopped. What AFB looks like. Or EFB. So, lord knows there's a ton still for me to learn. 

Clubs have a place. They "can" teach old and new. Newbies just have a lot more to learn.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

GLOCK said:


> I'm guessing that's was not addressed to me if so you took it wrong I listen to most here on this form and you are one of them and I thank you . I have been learning about bee keeping for almost 5 years and would never empower myself to ever give advice that I was not for sure about and i'm sure you know what your doing so if I offended you sorry .


correct - sorry to have even made you think about it - the first paragraph was for you - then other thoughts took over

Glock - I appreciate your curiosity!!!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

What is a club? A group of people joined together for a common goal. I think BS is a really big club. The only difference I see is the mode of communication.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Acebird said:


> What is a club? A group of people joined together for a common goal. I think BS is a really big club. The only difference I see is the mode of communication.


BEE SOURCE is the best and ACE you are right it's a great club and ya can come look around any time and get all the answers ya just have to ask most times.
And there is some top beekeeper that come here just great.:thumbsup:


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## linn (Nov 19, 2010)

Once I had another hobby. Someone asked me if I considered myself a novice? I said, "no, no, no, I am not that good!" Now, it is only beekeeping.


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