# GM Alfalfa



## DutchBee (Jul 14, 2009)

Heck, I thought they pulled it off the market?

I would love to get some of the seed myself.


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## knpeterson (May 18, 2009)

It was blocked by the courts for a while but then it was over ruled a couple of weeks ago. I'd be interested in it.


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## Pablo (Apr 9, 2010)

Ack! I wouldn't touch GM products if i don't absolutely have to. God knows what it is doing to us and the environment. Lots of problems with GM plants; after spraying fields with roundup over and over, things are becoming resistant, so stronger poison has to be made. There is a theory that GM products are the cause of the bee wipe out. On top of that, the idea that you can patent life is ridiculous, this then forces farmers to buy new seeds every year, because if they save their seed they violate the patent and get big big fines. I don't understand why roundup ready is a good thing? A plant that i eat being soaked in poison multiple times doesn't sound good to me (

no GM for me please, thats just my 2 cents

Pablo


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Can you provide me with the seed companies name and the varietal information?
Ernie


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## Pablo (Apr 9, 2010)

Monsanto is the creator/patent holder of GM seeds. Do a google search on them, or watching Food, Inc. They've done some nasty things. Not a company to support imo

Pablo


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## honeybeekeeper (Mar 3, 2010)

Despite claims and headlines to the contrary, Monsanto is still prohibited from selling and planting its Roundup Ready GM alfalfa. The true victors in the case are farmers, consumers and environmentalists who have argued that planting GM alfalfa would contaminate conventional and organic crops and lead to spraying noxious pesticides in regions where over 90% of alfalfa farmers do not use or need them.

*Here is an article that will tell you pretty much everything about it!*

http://www.gmwatch.org/latest-listing/1-news-items/12309-how-the-media-got-gm-alfalfa-wrong


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

But that is old news:

http://www.farmgate.illinois.edu/archive/2010/06/roundup_ready_a.html


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Please explain what Roundup ready alfalfa has to do with spraying "noxious pesticides" around.


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## knpeterson (May 18, 2009)

fish_stix said:


> Please explain what Roundup ready alfalfa has to do with spraying "noxious pesticides" around.


:applause:

Roundup is actually one of the safer herbicides out there because it has little residual and drift and breaks down quickly in the soil so contamination from run-off isn't as big of a threat.


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## Pablo (Apr 9, 2010)

fish_stix said:


> Please explain what Roundup ready alfalfa has to do with spraying "noxious pesticides" around.


roundup ready seeds are genetically modified (GMO) so that when the herbicides are sprayed they are not harmed but instead the weeds all die. 
Little is known about what implications this has.
Monsanto has sued farmers who did not plant their seeds for violating patent laws. How? because of cross pollination, the patented gene moved from one field with it to another with out. They forced the farmers to burn their crop and destroy any seed, putting them in huge debt or bankrupt. They also have many people dedicated to persecuting anyone who tries to save their seed, instead the patent forces them to destroy the seed, and buy new for the next planting.

Spraying vast amounts of roundup can't be good for anything, i don't care what studies show what. What if we find out that we've been consuming a toxic amount of roundup for years without knowing it?

bad idea imo

Pablo


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## honeybeekeeper (Mar 3, 2010)

Since June 23rd, this is the most recent news article about the alfalfa seed that i found!
http://www.gmwatch.org/latest-listing/1-news-items/12306-lawmakers-ask-usda-to-stop-gm-alfalfa

This is a June 23rd news article, Anyone have any news articles that is more up to date, if there is any???

in the news letter it states: Alfalfa is the fourth-largest U.S. field crop grown on about 23 million acres in the U.S. annually. It is pollinated largely by honey bees, making it difficult to isolate biotech alfalfa from conventional varieties.

Anyone know if its safe for the honey bees?


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## knpeterson (May 18, 2009)

There should be no reason it wouldn't be safe for bees. Its modified to have a protein that protects it from the effects of glyphospate (roundup) which is an herbicide not a pesticide.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37826335/ns/us_news-environment/ this is the story from msnbc about the court battle

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37825376/ns/us_news-environment/ also msnbc about the newly resistant weeds.

Quote from the above article: The weed killer, known generically as glyphosate, is absorbed through plants' leaves and kills them by blocking the production of proteins they need to grow. At the same time, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency considers it to have little toxicity to people and animals, and aside from the plants it's sprayed on, it's less of a threat to the environment because it quickly binds to soil and becomes inactive.

If some kind of herbicide is not used we cannot feed the world and livestock with these crops. Not many farmers are going to be able to hoe 3,000-5,000 acres and if everything is organic we won't be able to afford to feed ourselves and there will be food shortages. Glyphosate is widely accepted as one of the safer ones and has been used since the 70's. No matter what is used some resistance is going to eventually develop .


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## DutchBee (Jul 14, 2009)

I am glad they can start selling it. Thanks for the news I will order some seed ASAP. Good stuff!:thumbsup:

I have been waiting for it to be released. Monsanto is a good company in my opinion, and what they have been doing for the crop industry is great. It is called advancement. You know that terrible stuff called science!

That is why we can generate the quantity of soy and corn we can!


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## Pablo (Apr 9, 2010)

dutchbee,

i think theres a lot wrong with what your saying. Remember those commercials in the 60's that said "better living through chemistry", then we learned how bad DDT was, and then agent orange, and then asbestos, now were are learning BPA in plastic is hurting us, toxic chemicals in paints and drywall, fire retardants in furniture, the list never ends.

The way soy and corn is being grown is not sustainable, period. We will not be able to continue producing the amount of crops we now produce, its impossible. One big reason, they are sucking the aquifers in the midwest dry, and they are not being replenished.

In Columbia, they spread a similar product over fields of coca, only 10x more potent (product of Monsanto). 6 months later the locals cough up blood, get terrible 2-3 degree burn like rashes and usually die. Nothing is done, because there is no, quote, 'link' to the use of that herbicide and those physical problems.

What happens when the GMO seeds are the only ones that exist and the natural or 'organic' plants get bred out? If a product does that when its 10x more potent, its got to be doing something to us. 

What happens when there's 1 seed producer and 1 farmer?

Pablo


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## Pablo (Apr 9, 2010)

Oh,

And i went around with the chief bee inspector of the area, who was approached by the USDA and a doctor from Harvard to do a study on why bees are disappearing. Got funding for 50 hives around the area, plus a control group (not a huge study, i know)

Main reason being looked at
1. GMO plants pollen/nectar
2. Being fed High fructose corn syrup (GMO)
3. Chemicals used against Asian long horn beetle
4. An overload of the above

Just saying what the PhD'er said from Harvard.

Pablo


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## knpeterson (May 18, 2009)

Pablo I respect your views but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## knpeterson (May 18, 2009)

Well put Dutch! I agree!


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## DutchBee (Jul 14, 2009)

OK Pablo

Say hi to Al next time you see him!
I disagree. I guess we have two different opinions.

I bet you have a MAC don't you! 
Drive a VW or Toyota


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## ShawnR (Sep 29, 2009)

DutchBee said:


> OK Pablo
> 
> Say hi to Al next time you see him!
> I disagree. I guess we have two different opinions.
> ...


This post troubled me a little, and although I wasn't involved at all I found it a little offensive. Maybe I'm misconstruing what you may have meant as simple poking fun, and if so I apologize, but there are very legitimate concerns regarding GMO's which should not be simply shrugged off. While the organisms may not be a harm to our pollinators maybe we should be concerned with what our pollinators are doing with the pollen from these plants. Cross pollination between modified and unadulterated species has the potential to compromise adapted traits (drought resistance, storage quality, competitive ability etc.). So, I suppose my advice would be to really research and understand the product you are buying, as with anything.


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## sdracer12 (Apr 17, 2009)

Post #13 summed it up pretty well, good info.

Pablo, you need to do a little more research on Roundup-ready products before you equate them with everything evil and bad in the world, lol. Some of your posts are filled with doomsday rhetoric that just isn't based in fact. Roundup is not DDT, asbestos, nor is it a pesticide, and it has lead to advances in farming that allow farmers to cost-effectively produce more product. Farming today and in the future IS sustainable, why wouldn't it be? Auquifers being sucked dry? HUH? 

I understand your fears, and i'm not saying Roundup is totally harmless in all situations, but it might not be as bad as you think. We are all dependent on agriculture in this country, like it or not. Advancements in science keep farmers and agriculture working, and help keep the country growing. RR and BT products are a large part of today's farming landscape, and much more research needs to be done to help predict where those advancements will lead us.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

The widespread use of glyphosate is causing negative impacts on soil and plants as well as possibly animal and human health. These are key findings of Don Huber, emeritus professor of plant pathology, Purdue University.

Compromise agricultural sustainability, animal and human health

In a paper published in the European Journal of Agronomy in October 2009, Huber and co-author G.S. Johal, from Purdue's department of botany and plant pathology, state that the widespread use of glyphosate that we see today in agriculture in the United States can "significantly increase the severity of various plant diseases, impair plant defense to pathogens and diseases, and immobilize soil and plant nutrients rendering them unavailable for plant use." Further, the authors state that glyphosate stimulates the growth of fungi and enhances the virulence of pathogens such as Fusarium and "can have serious consequences for sustainable production of a wide range of susceptible crops." The authors warn "ignoring potential non-target detrimental side effects of any chemical, especially used as heavily as glyphosate, may have dire consequences for agriculture such as rendering soils infertile, crops non-productive, and plants less nutritious. To do otherwise might well compromise not only agricultural sustainability, but also the health and well-being of animals and humans."


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## knpeterson (May 18, 2009)

What do you suggest they use to control weeds in thousands of acres of crops?


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## Pablo (Apr 9, 2010)

The only reason why corn, processed corn based items (baking powder, dextrin, maltodextrin, dextrose (glucose), fructose, malt, malt syrup, malt extractmono- and di-glycerides, monosodium glutamate, sorbitol, starch, food starch, modified food starch, sucrose,treacle, xanthan gum...and there is more), everything that is made from corn (lots and lots), beef, chicken, pork (meat industry feeds the animals corn based feed, the only reason these are cheap is because the government heavily subsidizes the corn industry. This explains cheap crappy food.

The Ogallala aquifer (yes, aquifer, for the layman its a big underground pool) is being sucked dry (aka being used up very fast without being replenished). What happens when that occurs? Well, remember the dust bowl of the 1930's?

I know roundup isn't DDT or asbestos, though my point was that we didn't think those things were bad, and we rationalized them just like we are with roundup...but how do we know it isn't doing something detrimental? (like what was said in Camero's post)

We are Americans, and we tend to do first and figure it out later, but that has some costly affects.


Pablo

ps: I don't like Macs


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## knpeterson (May 18, 2009)

Corn can be found in over 2,000 products...from the food we eat to plastics and adhesives. We rely on grain crops so much we will always have to use chemicals to stop weeds and pests to keep the harvest amount high. Fortunately there are researchers always looking for newer safer ways. I agree with the water use (I hate seeing people water grass). We will soon be talking about our water footprint the way we talk about our carbon footprint. The Ogallala hasn't had much chance to recharge. Farmers are being shown new ways to make every drop count. Different tips and calibrations on sprayers to reduce evaporation and it won't be long before flood irrigation will be a thing of the past. Farmers recognize these things and do not damage their future lively hood or that of their children. Researchers are always trying to find more efficient ways to farm. IMO we will never have another dust bowl. There were several factors in play there that contributed. One of those was bad farming practices that contributed to leaching of nutrients of soil and huge amounts of topsoil lost. We learned from those mistakes and farmers work hard to keep soil nutrients (fertilizer is expensive) and keep their topsoil. There will always be a few smaller farmers who can grow organic or close to it for those who are seeking that. I myself plant a few acres of corn every year for our livestock. It is never sprayed b/c we just buy regular old corn seed and I fight with the ragweed that’s taller than me come harvest time. I don't like seeing tons of harsh chemicals being dumped on fields that create run-off and end up increasing the dead zone in the Gulf. But I trust in science and know that people can combine safer chemicals with better and more responsible farming practices. 

Side note: it seems everything is a carcinogen now...even the sassafras tea I used to enjoy as a kid is deemed a carcinogen.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

knpeterson said:


> What do you suggest they use to control weeds in thousands of acres of crops?


I had about 800 acres of alfalfa when I farmed in Colorado in the 70's. Never needed any weeding. When it's properly raised it's so thick that weeds won't grow in it. Makes great hay for stock. No need for Roundup or any other weed killer. Did have to spray one year for grasshopper though.


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## Pablo (Apr 9, 2010)

Amen Camero,

Why make a GMO alfalfa when it isn't needed? I guess that was my rant. I don't like the idea of genetically modified food, sounds to much like cloned meat or something. I don't like a lot of what is being done in the food industry, and i think if it was general knowledge, we'd eat a lot differently.

little side factoid- 50 years ago, the average american spent 20% of there annual income on food and 10% on health insurance. Now its skewed the opposite, so we spend 10% on food and 20% on health (rough estimates). Reason behind it is we buy cheaper, unhealthier food, and as a result we have to spend more on health insurance.

Pablo


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## DutchBee (Jul 14, 2009)

ShawnR said:


> This post troubled me a little, and although I wasn't involved at all I found it a little offensive. Maybe I'm misconstruing what you may have meant as simple poking fun, and if so I apologize, but there are very legitimate concerns regarding GMO's which should not be simply shrugged off. While the organisms may not be a harm to our pollinators maybe we should be concerned with what our pollinators are doing with the pollen from these plants. Cross pollination between modified and unadulterated species has the potential to compromise adapted traits (drought resistance, storage quality, competitive ability etc.). So, I suppose my advice would be to really research and understand the product you are buying, as with anything.


I can see how my obvious poking fun concerns you.
My point is this.
The post has become a place for ranting and spewing a single belief and is anyone going to say that certain folks are not really blowing some seriuos anti everything bull. The guy just asked a question if it would harm the bees. I think post #13 was spot on.

He did not ask for a radical reaction to the technology. I will bow out of this conversation now. And I will still convert my fields over to RR at the first opportunity.


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## solong (May 20, 2010)

I have to agree with Pablo, the closer to natural the better for me. However, it's true that we could not feed ourselvess without the yield provided by modified plants. But no one is mentioning the elephant in the room, overpopulation. There are just too many people who need to be fed and eventually (maybe already) technology will fail us.


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

My question, is everyone in this thread a beekeeper? I recognize a few names but not them all? Just wondering what side of the argument some are on and if they are even slightly concerned about Honey bees?


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## Jeff G (May 12, 2010)

I am a beekeeper and one point about GMOs is that we have been comsuming GM corn for over 100 years. It started when the first hibreads were developed over 100 years ago and has continued sinse. Monsanto has only isolated a particular gene that is resistant to Roundup and is able, through current technology, to inject it into the germ plasam and speed up the process by about 20 years. This is not a manufacured gene but one that is found in nature. Just my 2 cents.

One other point that pablo make is that Monsanto sued farmers over the use of the seed in the following year. I come from a farm and all the farmers know that when they plant GMO corn or soybeans that they are signing a contract not to plant the seed from that crop next year. They made the choice to buy the seed under that contract so why are they crying that they are being taken to court when they violate the contract. The last time I checked it was still a free country and they can buy non GMO corn and do wht they want the next year.


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## DutchBee (Jul 14, 2009)

Mike Snodgrass said:


> My question, is everyone in this thread a beekeeper? I recognize a few names but not them all? Just wondering what side of the argument some are on and if they are even slightly concerned about Honey bees?


I am a bee keeper. I can send you a picture of my swollen lip that looks like a golf ball if that helps. :lookout:


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## sdracer12 (Apr 17, 2009)

I am a beekeeper, and a farmer. I grew up on a farm and we raised wheat, oats, barley, corn, and soybeans, along with lots of alfalfa and hay, and many cattle and a few horses. I am proud of my farming heritage.


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## Elwood (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm a *******, tobacco chewin farmboy beekeeper who was raised on a farm in Indana. My people pretty much accepted the company line on just about everything until the fish started disappearing from the creeks and the ones that were left started manifesting tumors that we would find when we cleaned them. I don't know for sure what caused this but the timeline coincided with the advent of increased chemical usage on our soil.

I think we should err on the side of caution when these mad scientists come to us with their plan to rule the world.

Sustainable? I see 10,000 lbs of yield per acre (in the case of 200 bushel per acre corn) being exported off the farm and 300 lbs of fertilizer being imported. It seems like physics would suggest the eventual depletion of our soil. What about our families 100 years from now? How does this brave new world look out for them?

But to answer the original question. I don't know if it affects bees, therefore I will avoid it. Oops, better check the extractor!


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## DutchBee (Jul 14, 2009)

sdracer12 said:


> I am a beekeeper, and a farmer. I grew up on a farm and we raised wheat, oats, barley, corn, and soybeans, along with lots of alfalfa and hay, and many cattle and a few horses. I am proud of my farming heritage.


You should be proud.

I am as well. I am 3rd generation of Farmer/ Bee Keeper. Originally my family's farm history is Orchard. They owned and managed several apple orchards in central and western Michigan.

My Grand Father and Father were both Bee Keepers. My father graduated from Michigan State University "Go Spartans" with a degree in agriculture.

I am currently farming apple, pear, ans cash crop pumpkins. As well hay and orchard grass. Mix that with egg and meat duck.


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## AlderBee (May 14, 2009)

I've been reading through this thread and I'm surprised that there has been no talk of the effects of monoculture.
You can argue all you want about how safe Roundup is but what happens when you spray the field of GM Alfalfa with Roundup? All the other 'weeds' that supply vital nutrients are gone and there is only one food source left. Doesn't matter how healthy the food is that you eat if you only eat one thing and nothing else it's not good. 
Just my 2 cents worth.


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## knpeterson (May 18, 2009)

We do farm by monoculture. I don't eat alfalfa. I eat corn and many other things...not just one thing. Just because we plant only one type of crop in a field at a time does not mean thats the only thing we eat. Crops are rotated. Crops that use loads of nitrogen with crops that are nitrogen fixing. 
Example: Corn w/ soybeans cotton w/peanuts.
Weeds compete plan and simple. If you plant a garden are you going to let all the weeds grow up in it and say that they are good? Doubtful.


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## Jeff G (May 12, 2010)

I think what Alder Bee is saying is that a monoculture of Alfalfa is not the best food for bees, if that is the only source they have. And if that is the question what you will find in agriculture is that hay is the by product of Alfalfa and most farmers havest alfalfa hay before full blum, so as a source of nector for the bees it would be short-lived. And as most farmers know, there are always a lot of weeds on the edges of fields that can produce a varied netcor source.


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## knpeterson (May 18, 2009)

Jeff you have an excellent point about the edges of fields. That is a problem with herbicide sprays is that it often takes out the beneficial plants on the edges of the crops that bees may work.


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## toms1arrow (May 7, 2010)

I am a new hobby beekeeper, but not a farmer, I do own land and have put in new alfalfa fields myself with borrowed equipment except I own my tractor. Lease the tillable and alfalfa ground out. After the alfalfa fields get played out( 6-7 yrs) you need to spray them down (roundup) and reseed alfalfa or go to a row crop to control noxious weeds. I have an alfalfa field next to my neighbors horse pasture that they let thistle get going heavy in. This alfalfa is 7 yrs old and I am planting trees in this field now. The thistle is so thick you can barley see grass. I am spraying with 2-4-D (not roundup) and this will kill all weeds not grasses. I hate to do it, but I have a 50 acre pristine swamp to the east that is all native that I do not want thistle to get started in. OH :no: it's to late. The bee's love that thistle but it has to go. They are not working any alfalfa or clover that I can see.


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## mbholl (Dec 16, 2007)

Has anyone had bees around GM alfalfa?? Have you noticed any effect on bees or honey?


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

In all honesty, I do not know why we need GM alfalfa.

I am a cattle producer, a beekeeper and help with alfalfa seed production

The only time round up is used is to destroy a field. So if a field of alfalfa is round up resistant, pretty much nothing will kill it then.
When it comes to seed production, alfalfa fields in this part are sprayed with valpar or partner to kill the grasses and weeds.
In hay land, it is too costly to spray a field to kill the weeds...just does not pay. Especially when cattle prices are in the toilet. Not to mention a pure alfalfa diet is to rich for cows, and pretty much anything that they do not need gets shoved out the back end and pretty fast. Or they put extra condition on themselves, get to fat, don't breed back on time or wean a smaller calf because they are putting the energy into themselves instead of their calf...both of which is not cost effective in the cattle market.

As to honey bees, bees do not really like alfalfa plants. Yes they will work them, but begrudgeingly. Alfalfa has a stamin that when triggered by the honey bee, they get knocked out. This is why, if you watch a honey bee on an alfalfa flower they go at it from the side of the plant. To increase your yield in the alfalfa seed production, get leaf cutter bees. They are an anti social bee with no queen, die off each fall and you hatch out the eggs in the spring. The bees are way smaller so they can pollinate the flower alot better.
With honey bees you might get what 200# of seed per acre....we get 400-600# per acre on average and 700 on a brillant year.

Round up ready alfalfa seems a bit redunant to me


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## knpeterson (May 18, 2009)

Honeyshack, question about the bees being flung off the alfalfa. Do you know if that happens with Buckwheat as well. I just ordered a 100# of buckwheat seed to plant in a food plot (bee and other wildlife foodplot  ) I thought I may have heard something before about the buckwheat being similar to the alfalfa in that sense.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I have never heard that about buckwheat before. However, that does not suprise me since no one around here grows it any more and i can not convince my husband to grow a few acres for the bees.


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