# Treatment free for 20 months + feed free



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Where did you get your bees?

Do you check mite levels?


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

My first thought is:
I'm sure glad those bees are in Cheyenne Wyoming and not Salem Oregon.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

I work with lines from Noble Apiaries in Dixon, CA. 

I only check drone brood. It used to be that if I found more than a couple mites, I'd treat with OA dribble, but two seasons ago I decided to skip it and see what happened, and here I am now with healthy bees, had an excellent honey year, and all are going into winter strong.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good report ben, thanks for sharing.


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

westernbeekeeper said:


> I just realized that I haven't treated any of my bees for mites, or anything else for that matter, for almost 2 full years now. They just haven't needed it. Thoughts?


How do you know they haven't needed it if you haven't gathered any data to support this statement? I know you scratched open some drone brood and checked, but if you are going to make such a drastic change, wouldn't one want to do a more reliable test? I'm a fairly new beekeeper and probably shouldn't give my opinion, BUT it is of my humble opinion, that I think you owe it to yourself, and other beekeepers to at least do some more accurate and extensive tests to confirm your statement of not needing to treat.


Todd


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ben, are you doing any queenrearing from your best colonies?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

@ Squarepeg: Didn't get a good chance this year. 

@ Todd: Thank you. Yes, I do plan to put in place a more formal program. I was simply throwing my informal results out there for discussion. I appreciate your input!


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"I wonder if it correlates with the fact that I haven't fed them either for that time. Thoughts?"

A controlled study of that would be interesting. What else do you do that could affect success with _varroa_?


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

> I wonder if it correlates with the fact that I haven't fed them either for that time. Thoughts?


Been TF for 15 yrs. Feeding real honey keeps them healthy for sure. I don't hesitate to top off with sugar syrup if needed. Striping the broodnest of honey is a poor practice in my opinion. Artificial feeds are ok if truly needed but I wouldn't rely on them for best bee health. Quality food and clean wax will help you, but only go so far. Keep an eye on your mites if you don't need to treat then why do it....


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

westernbeekeeper said:


> I wonder if it correlates with the fact that I haven't fed them either for that time. Thoughts?


while not universal among all those keeping bees off treatments avoiding artificial feeds is a fairly common denominator. the literature is somewhat lacking with regard to what role that may play or not. 

intuitively one might expect honey would contain important nutritional factors potentially involved in the bees' natural immunity to pathogens that would be absent in plain sugar or hfcs.

this may explain in part why some bees are able to tolerate high enough mite loads to be devastating to other bees.

all speculative on my part and jmho.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

It is worth reviewing the time series data from the "Gotland" Bond experiment. 








In that fundamental paper, at 20 months "in" losses were manageable. In my opinion, if an apiary is managed for very young colonies -- a TF endeavor is practical, if costly. Much of the "noise" about one particular management tweak or other is lost when you consider that TF colonies take a while to express mite syndrome and die.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> It is worth reviewing the time series data from the "Gotland" Bond experiment.
> View attachment 21568
> 
> 
> In that fundamental paper, at 20 months "in" losses were manageable. In my opinion, if an apiary is managed for very young colonies -- a TF endeavor is practical, if costly. Much of the "noise" about one particular management tweak or other is lost when you consider that TF colonies take a while to express mite syndrome and die.



IMO that is a sustainable operation. It would probably take more colonies than a treating yard to produce the same amount of honey. You would basically have 2 yrs of production and on the 3rd break up into rebuilding mode. With colonies staggered in their timing throughout the process one could run a fairly set number of production hives and nucs and that is the model that several around me locally use and that I am trying to work up to. Some of them locally are getting more like 3-4 yrs production and 4/5th yr bust up into nucs for rebuilding though.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

To be sure...twenty months seem a bit premature to be bragging....in my opinion.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

beemandan said:


> To be sure...twenty months seem a bit premature to be bragging....in my opinion.



it's a lot longer that 2 commercial packages I bought this spring hived on may 1 and the first was dead come mid sept due to mites. Was hoping to requeen it next spring. Second lost last week. But it tried swarming on me so I was able to split off original queen into a nuc. Parent hive succomed to mites. All my locals are thriving and well, one queen was on her 4th yr this yr before I lost her to a swarm.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Harley Craig said:


> it's a lot longer that 2 commercial packages I bought this spring


The old rule that a package should survive its first year without any treatment....just ain't so anymore....and maybe never was. On the other hand it'll take more than twenty months for someone to claim tf success...again...in my opinion.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

beemandan said:


> The old rule that a package should survive its first year without any treatment....just ain't so anymore....and maybe never was. On the other hand it'll take more than twenty months for someone to claim tf success...again...in my opinion.




I now agree 100% with the first part of that statement and unfortunately learned it the hard way. The Second half I think success is in the eye of the beholder. It's kinda like owning stocks, You could be on a downward trend and get out and it was a failure but hanging on a bit more and doubling down and it would have rebounded and been a success, so it's entirely dependent on your end game. When it comes to building my TF operation, I see hive failure as a success to the overall goal. ( typically/ prior to this yr ) Mother winter selected for me which bees not to breed from.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

20 months isn't a bad start IMO these days. I lose mine over here in September, I guess that's like the 6 month mark from spring. Phil has some good queens, I have tried them, very productive but over here I didn't see any tolerance to Varroa and they were in a good forage area, no feeding required either. Other traits are spot on though, good brooders, forage heavy, large broodnest during the season.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

HarryVanderpool said:


> My first thought is:
> I'm sure glad those bees are in Cheyenne Wyoming and not Salem Oregon.


...and what would be your second thought


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

beemandan said:


> To be sure...twenty months seem a bit premature to be bragging....in my opinion.


I feel ya! Not trying to brag...just putting my short experience out there for grilling. I DO NOT profess to know much at all about treatment free. This is more for my learning as much as or more than anyone elses. ;-)


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

A small factor that moves the line on the Gotland Island chart even a few months to the right may be significant and could dramatically affect the long term height and trajectory of the line on the vertical axis. Alexander Fleming noticed the margin of one random, accidental piece of mold on a Petri dish, and he cured gonorhea. A small move in that chart such as from not feeding or using cedar boxes could significantly affect my operation. My goal is twelve production hives. Right now I have twenty-five or so. I caught forty-four swarms this year, twenty-eight in fourteen swarm traps and the rest on swarm calls. I don't treat and I plan to not treat. I lost one hive in the 2013-2014 winter. It was one of two nucs I bought from a migratory beekeeper. Those two hives are the only bees I've ever bought. (I was given a third hive, but had to requeen it because it was too hot. It's doing well.) Some of my trapped swarms absconded; most did well and were sold or kept. I lost one hive in the 2014-2015 winter. That was a very late (November) swarm that just didn't have enough bees or reserves. I also did additional cutouts, one of which "had been there twenty years" according to the owner, and it looked it. Some of the cutouts swarmed soon after hiving them. I lost several of my mating nucs as I have tried to learn to raise queens or make small summer nucs. Those losses appeared to be from having too few bees in the starter nucs. Live and learn. My point is just a little change in the Gotland curve and the viability of my desired twelve production hives is pretty secure. Could I get more honey by feeding and treating. In the short run, of course. Do I get more enjoyment from what I'm doing. Yes.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

beemandan said:


> The old rule that a package should survive its first year without any treatment....just ain't so anymore....and maybe never was. On the other hand it'll take more than twenty months for someone to claim tf success...again...in my opinion.


I can swallow that but, wheres the line Dan? In the same statement you say you expect mortality from a package the first year, but give no credit for 20mo untreated hives. Where is the difference. Dont get me wrong, I agree that 20 mos is too soon to claim true success, but, in my estimation it is far more success than the 8 mos a package gives. I have a few going into their third winter. I see far less outward signs than the previous 2yrs. I hope the new ones going in have the same success. I do believe it is possible, to manage tolerant hives. Perhaps there is a trade off in production, but for someone like me, I would rather carry 20% more production hives and get the same output, as I would run 20% less and deal with treating. I am trying to find a medium, not trying to preach, I see benefits from both approaches, and see the necessity for treating in-certain instances. G


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

My experience it that most TF hives collapse the 3rd winter if not before. I've only had one hive survive 4 years.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

westernbeekeeper said:


> I DO NOT profess to know much at all about treatment free. This is more for my learning as much as or more than anyone elses. ;-)


I am truly wishing you good luck. TF and a Wyoming winter strike me as a serious challenge.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

biggraham610 said:


> I can swallow that but, wheres the line Dan? In the same statement you say you expect mortality from a package the first year, but give no credit for 20mo untreated hives. Where is the difference


I agree...twenty months is a good start. And, I wouldn't say that a new package will surely collapse after the first season. I'm saying that there is considerable risk that it will....contrary to the old rule.

Where's the line? It's all opinion...in my opinion.  In my opinion if they survive the third season and enter the fourth with what appears to be good health....I think they are outside of the bell curve. If you have one or two hives do it out of fifty....I'd say they may still be outliers. If you have forty out of fifty enter that fourth season in good health....you've got something special. 
Not hard and fast rules....just my first thought this am....with only a half cup of coffee down.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

camero7 said:


> My experience it that most TF hives collapse the 3rd winter if not before. I've only had one hive survive 4 years.


I've run tf yards three times. I tried to populate them with, what I thought, were good genetics. I had Dann Purvis, Russian and ferals. I used small cell and foundationless. If I looked at the averages...I'd say: During my first winter I'd lose 20 - 30%. The second winter would take 50+% of the remaining. And the third winter pretty much finished 'em off. I had a couple that struggled through much of their fourth season. 
Per hive honey production was totally in the tank after the first season. 
I'm not saying this will be everyone's experience. I'm simply saying it was mine. And unless someone comes up with a truly novel method, I'm not willing to keep doing the same thing over and over.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

beemandan said:


> If you have forty out of fifty enter that fourth season in good health....you've got something special.


Having added an appropriate amount of caffeine...I now realize that I set the bar unfairly high. If I'm attentive, I can keep my annual losses under 20%. I shouldn't expect a tf success to be higher. So, I guess I'd modify my statement to say...if you have 20 out of original 50 entering the fourth season in good health....you've got something special.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> IMO that is a sustainable operation. It would probably take more colonies than a treating yard to produce the same amount of honey. You would basically have 2 yrs of production and on the 3rd break up into rebuilding mode. With colonies staggered in their timing throughout the process one could run a fairly set number of production hives and nucs and that is the model that several around me locally use and that I am trying to work up to. Some of them locally are getting more like 3-4 yrs production and 4/5th yr bust up into nucs for rebuilding though.


Do you mean break them up and the end of 2nd year going into the third? Because it looks like 36 months in they've experienced an 87% loss.
Also not nit picking, but I thought you considered splitting a treatment (personally, I mean)?

Hard to believe your two packages suffered mite collapses their first year. I got lucky lucky last year, I think. This was a heck of a year for honey and in turn brood... and mites around here. Assuming you were similarly "flowed", they probably brooded their brains out all summer like most of mine did. Can't blame them seeing as there was a seemingly never-ending spring flow (until a few weeks ago).


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> Do you mean break them up and the end of 2nd year going into the third? Because it looks like 36 months in they've experienced an 87% loss.
> Also not nit picking, but I thought you considered splitting a treatment (personally, I mean)?
> 
> Hard to believe your two packages suffered mite collapses their first year. I got lucky lucky last year, I think. This was a heck of a year for honey and in turn brood... and mites around here. Assuming you were similarly "flowed", they probably brooded their brains out all summer like most of mine did. Can't blame them seeing as there was a seemingly never-ending spring flow (until a few weeks ago).


you are correct I do consider excessive splitting to be a treatment. (Think OTS where people bust up all colonies into nucs after their main flow ) And I think you are also correct why my packages experienced mite issues in their first yr. Both of them pulled double deeps ( one 10 frame the other 8 frame) and a couple of supers. Both were very Italian looking and acting bees. My carni mutts are darker bees and brood in ebb and flows based on available forage, and rob very little the bright orange package bees would try robbing my other hives during flows. They probably brought more mites home that way too. After this yr I have completely sworn off Italian packages, and quite frankly packages in general. I don't regret getting them though, they built a crap ton of comb for me this yr when it was much needed and the early dead outs were a Godsend for some of my earlier splits that were almost ready to swarm on me at that time.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> After this yr I have completely sworn off Italian packages, and quite frankly packages in general.


Good for you! 

I bought three last year, zero this year, and plan on never buying one again. The Cordovan Italians (from California) that I have are good bees until there's lack of flow. Then they are robbing little beasts and they get pretty mean. Make a lot of bees and brood and honey in the meantime. But they blow through it in a hurry. Haven't lost one in the winter yet, though. But I haven't lost any in the winter yet. 

I do plan on requeening them next year if they are around. Probably by taking the queen out into a nuc and putting a cell into the mother colony. Or possibly using one or both as a cell builder and then breaking them down into the mating nucs I'll (hopefully) need after grafting. Then selling off the queens or banking them until needed (or not needed). They do get a bad rap as far as overwintering and mite tolerance... and I think they deserve some of that ire.

But there is a place in the apiary for a bee that rears brood and rears brood and rears brood. Especially if you want to make increase like I do. Had I had the queens or cells I could have made a whole lot of nucs out of my Italian queens during the summer. Kind of a waste not doing so. Fortunately, I've got some bees that do similar, but don't blow through gallons of honey in the winter and they don't rob relentlessly.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Not sure what my Italians were, packages were shook in florida with cali queens Never seen bees so orange like bright orange very few bees had barely a skiff of black First bees I ever saw work red clover for nectar too.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

well i have been TF and Feed free for ten years now beefuzz LLC


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

westernbeekeeper said:


> I wonder if it correlates with the fact that I haven't fed them either for that time. Thoughts?





Riverderwent said:


> A controlled study of that would be interesting.


Yes a study would be interesting. From all the reading I have done on it there is no evidence at all that not feeding sugar enhances bees ability to withstand mites. It is entirely assumption.

I note that a while back Solomon Parker used to feed sugar if needed, and for a couple years also claimed no bee losses. More recently he has jumped on the don't feed sugar bandwagon, and coincidentally over the last year or so has lost most of his hives.

Which proves one off examples can prove anything, a study is needed. Also, the big anti sugar promoter is Tim Ives, who claims sugar is white death to bees and attributes his own success to not feeding it. However in Tim's case he is in an area with excellent honey flows spread over most of the season, a 1/2 decent beekeeper would never need to feed sugar there anyway. It's different for a beekeeper in an area with thin flows and long dearths.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I'm of the mind that carbohydrates in a hive are pretty much generic as long as it is easily palatable. Give one hive a steady diet of hard granulated honey and a hive of equal strength a steady diet of syrup of either sucrose or fructose and see which one does better. The same can't be said of protein requirements. All pollens and/or pollen supplements are not equal. What beekeeper with any experience hasn't seen the dramatic differences in brood patterns in the early spring when new pollen becomes abundant.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Yes a study would be interesting. From all the reading I have done on it there is no evidence at all that not feeding sugar enhances bees ability to withstand mites. It is entirely assumption.
> 
> I note that a while back Solomon Parker used to feed sugar if needed, and for a couple years also claimed no bee losses. More recently he has jumped on the don't feed sugar bandwagon, and coincidentally over the last year or so has lost most of his hives.
> 
> Which proves one off examples can prove anything, a study is needed. Also, the big anti sugar promoter is Tim Ives, who claims sugar is white death to bees and attributes his own success to not feeding it. However in Tim's case he is in an area with excellent honey flows spread over most of the season, a 1/2 decent beekeeper would never need to feed sugar there anyway. It's different for a beekeeper in an area with thin flows and long dearths.


To be fair to Parker, it should be noted that he has moved his bees to a new climatic zone, and hasn't been close enough to look after them properly. Some hive toppling wind also took him by surprise. He has had to move them yet again. Not exactly a useful baseline.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Fair enough. 

I do suspect however, that the baseline used to show that feeding syrup is bad for bees, does not actually exist. There are no examples to show feeding syrup is harmful, of any better credibility than my Parker one showing the opposite. Part of my point in using a weak example, was to draw attention to the weakness of the opposing examples as they tend to be no better.

Bottom line, feeding syrup provided it is done properly has not been shown to be harmful. It has however in many cases been shown to be beneficial.

In the Parker case, he moved his hives to an environment he did not understand, harsher than he is used to. Hence, for example, stacking up big empty hives just begging for the wind he did not understand, to blow them over. Another thing he got wrong, was NOT feeding them, which they needed in the new environment.

A person does not HAVE to feed their bees, but DOES have to live with the consequences if the bees die from the lack of it.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I do suspect however, that the baseline used to show that feeding syrup is bad for bees, does not actually exist. There are no examples to show feeding syrup is harmful, of any better credibility than my Parker one showing the opposite. Part of my point in using a weak example, was to draw attention to the weakness of the opposing examples as they tend to be no better.
> 
> ...


I never got the impression that lack of feeding was an issue for his bees. His problems this year were for other reasons. As for his disaster...I'm sure most beekeepers experience them at some point. I'm waiting for mine I can't think of and control everything.

I can't bring up a definitive baseline study. The evidence is more around the edges. Ie differences in pH (which is possibly very important) , types of sugars, the need for processing by bees and even small differences in micronutrients can make a large difference. Plus bees evolved to feed on honey not sugar syrup. Perhaps someone with a hand in the literature can help out, but I can't imagine bees would be just as healthy on sugar syrup. Like small cell, it may not be a make or break situation, but just another additive factor that may help bees cope with mite/virus/brood disease complex.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The old issues of Gleanings in Bee Culture and American Bee Journal are on line and I think they would be very informative for modern beekeepers. In 1919, I can't remember which month, Dr. C. C. Miller and A. I. Root discussed feeding for winter stores. A. I. Root makes the statement he has fed 20,000 pounds of sugar and the has had no problems with his bees. He used no additives or enhancements, just granulated sugar. Miller also fed sugar, and like Root experienced no problems.

I am small time, I only feed about 1000 pounds a year, but I have done so for more years than I care to think about. Sugar syrup, fed plain, at the proper time, in the proper manner, for the proper reason, can only benefit a honey bee colony. Many of the problems that are laid at the door of feeding sugar syrup actually are caused by beekeepers themselves that can't believe feeding bees can be so simple. They must "tinker" with the process, putting in things they think improve the feed, but can in many cases cause the bees damage. Honey bees process the syrup, just as they do nectar. They need no help adjusting the food to their needs.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I'm of the opinion that feeding is not harmful so long as it is not to excess. A gallon of syrup at the right time can carry a colony through winter and bring them into the next spring in good condition. Overfeeding on the other hand is IMO seriously detrimental to the bees. Summer bees live very short lives because they wear themselves out storing, harvesting, and maturing nectar into honey. If excess syrup is fed, the winter bees become short lived similar to summer bees and can dwindle in early spring until the colony is not viable. Brother Adam wrote about this in Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey.

I'm lazy. Take that to mean that I don't want to do anything to my bees that does not absolutely have to be done. That includes feeding. This is the reason I leave plenty of honey on my bees to get them through winter. I've had to feed 2 colonies this fall and gave them syrup that is half honey and half 2:1 sugar syrup. Each was given just over a gallon.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

lharder said:


> To be fair to Parker, {.....} Some hive toppling wind also took him by surprise.


When Parker showed off his new apiary in the High Plains east of Denver last year; Michael Bush, on this very forum, gently told him of the winds on the Wyoming plains, where Bush had lived and kept bees. Bush suggested greater care and concern (and a snow fence). Parker blew him off (and the hives over). 

The aphorism pertains "you can lead a horse to water ..." There is a lot of wisdom held among the old keeps, and the headstrong youth would do well to pay attention.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> Much of the "noise" about one particular management tweak or other is lost when you consider that TF colonies take a while to express mite syndrome and die.


Would it be good idea that all writers on this Forum had the years of TF beekeeping in their signature? 



Harley Craig said:


> you are correct I do consider excessive splitting to be a treatment.


The amount of splitting should be stated too. And number of swarms captured. 

All readers could then consider the advise given accordingly.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Brother Adam fed bees in the fall. C.C. Miller said, "The best thing is never to feed them, but let them gather their own stores." _A Thousand Answers to Beekeeping Questions_, p. 85.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

JWChesnut said:


> When Parker showed off his new apiary in the High Plains east of Denver last year; Michael Bush, on this very forum, gently told him of the winds on the Wyoming plains, where Bush had lived and kept bees. Bush suggested greater care and concern (and a snow fence). Parker blew him off (and the hives over).
> 
> The aphorism pertains "you can lead a horse to water ..." There is a lot of wisdom held among the old keeps, and the headstrong youth would do well to pay attention.


I'm sure there were no headstrong youth among the oldtimers here. They just became headstrong oldtimers


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

JWChesnut said:


> When Parker showed off his new apiary in the High Plains east of Denver last year; Michael Bush, on this very forum, gently told him of the winds on the Wyoming plains, where Bush had lived and kept bees. Bush suggested greater care and concern (and a snow fence). Parker blew him off (and the hives over).


The weather is basically the same here. My new favorite configuration is a 3-8 frame deep setup going into winter, and with a smaller footprint of an 8 frame hive I've had reservations about hive height for winter but even the extreme gusts we've gotten haven't knocked any of my hives over. Loose livestock is a much bigger threat. This isn't Kansas or Wyoming etc. but we can get some strong winds on the front range. 

Having said that, 14 of my hives are 36 months treatment free, 4 are 4 or 5 years tf and the rest are splits or swarms or cutout colonies or hives that were treated with OA in the past and requeened. I did lose 1 hive to mites a month ago and I have a second that's in a bad way because of mites. I'm going to blast that hive with OA 3 times, once every 5-7 days and requeen it in the spring from my other stock if it makes it through the winter.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Keep up the good work Rwurster. G


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Riverderwent; Did you only read half of Dr. Miller's paragraph? Tell us what the rest of the paragraph said.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Riverderwent said:


> Brother Adam fed bees in the fall. C.C. Miller said, "The best thing is never to feed them, but let them gather their own stores." _A Thousand Answers to Beekeeping Questions_, p. 85.


To be fair to Miller (God rest his soul) his full answer is as follows:



> Q. When is the best time to feed the bees?
> 
> A. The best thing is never to feed them, but let them gather
> their own stores. But if the season is a failure, as it is some
> ...


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

JW, thank you. The full quote is a much clearer guide. I'm currently reading _Fifty Years Among the Bees_. Dr. Miller is the P.G. Wodehouse of beekeeping.


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