# Swarm Trap: how empty should it be?



## toekneepea (Jul 7, 2010)

I have a few old boxes that I've converted over to swarm traps, 10-frame mediums, 8-frame mediums that I'm going to double up on, and maybe a deep that a friend is going to retire. I also have a few old frames of old brood comb that is as dark as the pit of despair.

My question is: How empty do you leave your swarm trap? Do you only put a few frames of foundation along with the brood comb and swarm lure and leave the rest of the box empty?

Or, do you fill the box with frames - undrawn foundation along with the old brood comb and lure?

Thanks,
Tony P.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

It should be full. If you leave empty space and don't get to it fast enough the bees will hang comb from the lid. Comb is better than foundation. I feel that my traps with foundation catch less than traps filled with comb.


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## toekneepea (Jul 7, 2010)

Thanks odfrank!

Tony P.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

I've heard different. That you should leave 1/3 to 1/2 of a swarm trap empty to make it more appealing. That the scouts not only look for room enough for now, but room to expand, and by leaving the empty space it tricks them into thinking its bigger than it really is (as in, if it were full of drawn frames they might pass it by, but the exact same box with two or three missing frames would get them to move in).


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## Bees In Miami (Nov 30, 2012)

I have heard the same as Edy. A couple frames of drawn comb helps, too, but leave the rest of the frames empty with a guide (ie foundationless) so there is room to grow. I would not put an entirely empty box out.

Editing to add....due to the pissing match that follows....I caught two last season...one in a dead out I hadn't had the chance to break down, and one in a super I had ready to add to a hive, which contained 10 frames with wax foundation. Since I wasn't intentionally TRYING to catch swarms, I chalked it up to 'dumb luck'. When I spoke to a 30+ year Beek that works in the Apiary Division for the State, I asked him. He uses the method I mentioned above. Choosing not to pass on what I still believe to be dumb luck success, I chose to provide what a very respected Apiary Division employee told me. 

Another reason I posted only the first method is a concern for wax moth. If you have wax moth issues, you have to keep an eye on your swarm traps for pest infestation. They'll destroy your hard worked for drawn comb in no time...at least they do here! Good luck!


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I use one or two brood comb on the outsides, and then fill the rest with foundationless empty frames to give the appearance of size.
It's no fun doing a bunch of cutouts on your newly caught swarm, a few empties will save time, comb and easier on the bees.

According to T Seeley the scout will fly back and forth taking measurements inside the space. Size is a factor in their decision.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Both of you say you have "heard". The question is, does that trump my actual experience of catching dozens of bait hives a year using full boxes?


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Good question. I'm going to try my hand at it this year.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Well, if you use foundationless frames, you can avoid wild comb *and* have a mostly empty box.


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## Motj3 (Dec 15, 2012)

Odfrank is right. I know from experience. If you leave open area you will be cutting out either drawn from the lid or disorganized comb. That is my actual having done it experience.


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## toekneepea (Jul 7, 2010)

Thank you everyone!

Tony P.


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## wildbeekeeper (Jul 3, 2010)

if you need to go foundationless, at the very least alternate frames with foundation then foundationless so you wont have 5-8 frames with cross comb! but yes fill it up with frames as everyone has mentioned previously!


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Yeah, you hear a lot of things. They maybe right, maybe not. Both opinions may be right, or not. It's the bees that get to decide who is right. I let success speak for itself. There's nothing wrong with trying something different if not too opinionated to recognize when it's wrong.

My experience has been to use a couple of nasty, old black frames, a couple of foundationless (but never next to each other) and a couple of foundation or drawn (six frames total in my traps).

Grant
Jackson, MO https://www.createspace.com/4106626


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## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

I use 8 frame boxes for my traps and include one empty brood comb and 7 foundationless frames with starter strips. Many of my traps are 4 hours from where I live, so I don't get to check on them frequently. I caught 6 swarms in these far away traps and they all build beautiful frames of comb before I got to them. The key is to get the box hung as level as possible if you are using foundationless frames. Same principle as if it were in your back yard on a hive stand.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

wildbeekeeper said:


> if you need to go foundationless, at the very least alternate frames with foundation then foundationless so you wont have 5-8 frames with cross comb! but yes fill it up with frames as everyone has mentioned previously!


I was probably just lucky, but they made mostly nice comb in the swarm trap on my completely empty foundationless frames with comb guides. They did get one comb a little out of line on one end, but I just cut it back and bent it back into place, and it's been fine. Next year I'll have some dark brood frames to put in the traps, so they'll have a pattern to start with.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

odfrank said:


> Both of you say you have "heard". The question is, does that trump my actual experience of catching dozens of bait hives a year using full boxes?


Well to flip it around, have you ever actually used both full and partially empty boxes, and done a statistical analysis of which style has a higher catch rate, if any?

I don't think anyone would argue that you can or cannot catch swarms with either method, or that there are not pro's and con's to each method. What I would be more interested in is which method is overall more effective in getting a swarm to move in.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

My question has now become how long to you leave the comb inside if wax moths and hive beetles are around? Do you pull the frames every few days, replace with new ones, and freeze the originals over night?


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

I use 8 frame boxes and I fill them with foundation-less frames that are empty.. Wax moths WILL destroy any drawn comb within about two weeks if it isnt guarded by bees in this area.
I use commercial Swarm Lure from Mann Lake as well as a couple drops of LemonGrass Essential oil. As already mentioned it IS important to make sure the box is level side to side. Front to back doesnt matter as much, and I do in fact tilt the front down slightly if it is at all possible. The method I use works, so I have not tried different things, like only a couple frames or an empty box etc.. 90% of the time the bees draw comb in the frames as they were meant to. The other ten percent are a bit of a pain but free bees cant be argued with!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Well to flip it around, have you ever actually used both full and partially empty boxes, and done a statistical analysis of which style has a higher catch rate, if any?

I have not done a statisical analysis. But I have been catching bees for over 43 years both by accident and on purpose. The accidental ones seem to love six foot tall piles of supers full of comb. And since I have been setting about 50 traps a year for many years now I have tried many combinations. Boxes with only one or two combs have not done as well as boxes full of combs. Boxes with only one or two combs seem to catch one comb swarms. Boxes full of combs usually catch full boxes of bees, or more. 

>My question has now become how long to you leave the comb inside if wax moths
Moth larvaes only seem to move in after the end of the swarm season. Little trouble with that.

I am only making eight and ten frame traps after this one flew away from a five framer.


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## wheeler88 (Mar 6, 2011)

I caught two swarms this spring in 8 frame deep size boxes and only put 3 frames of comb in each one. In both boxes the bees had attached comb to the top.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

We have a lot of wax moths here as well. I was planning to spray the frames and comb with BT a., would that stop them adequately?

OdFrank, what is the source of the wine boxes?


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## bassbee (Apr 26, 2013)

Just my 2 cents. I had an excellent year this year catching swarms with my bait traps. I caught 24 swarms with my traps. When I first began doing the traps I put a dark comb frame on each side and left the middle open with no frames at all. The first couple I caught made me go back too all my others and fill them with frames. The first few had comb attached to the top so I had to cut it and transfer it to a frame to be able to put it in a hive. After that experience, I place a frame of dark comb on each side and fill the middle with old empty frames. I do how ever put a small starter strip about 1.5 inches thick into each frame and also put wire in the empty frames. I have found this gives them a little bit of foundation to work off of and also once they build the comb to the wires, it gives the comb strength. They will usually build the comb right through the wires. Like someone else stated opinions or opinions, everyone has their own. What works for me may be totally off from what someone else does. My trap set up is a combination of what I researched and my thinking. My traps don't copy anyone's so get out and just see what works for you. Good Luck!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Lburou said:


> OdFrank, what is the source of the wine boxes?


There is a wine distributor across the bay that fills a 15cy. debris box every two weeks with wood wine boxes. Try liquor stores that sell European wine,


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## beeditch (Dec 19, 2013)

SS1 said:


> I use 8 frame boxes and I fill them with foundation-less frames that are empty.. Wax moths WILL destroy any drawn comb within about two weeks if it isnt guarded by bees in this area.


Do you use bare foundation-less frames or do you have wax on the top strip?

- I dont have any comb laying around, so I will have to try the methods with either was foundation or foundation-less. Anyone else have great success without comb?


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