# Using Honey-B-Healthy, is it still treatment free?



## Redwards (Dec 7, 2013)

I am a newbe and am planning for my bees in the spring. I want to give my package every help I can and thought about adding Honey-B-Healthy to the syrup while I am feeding them. Does that really count as treatment free? Not that I care about labels but there are things said by experts such as Michael Bush about the essintial oils killing helpful microbes that the bees need. Does anyone have a helpful idea about this? Have you used the product and would you recomend it to me. Thanks


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Should be a sticky at teh top of the forum that gives you a complete definition.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

It technically is not treatment free. Truly T.F. is a bogus word. Kind of like organic. "Ya, we feed our bees 100% organic crude oil" 

Then on the flipside feeding sugar is a treatment. Once again bogus term. 

Pollen subs, Sugar syrup, HFCS and sucrose are all unhealthy for bees and lower their immune system. anything natural like premium essential oils Lavendar, eucalyptus, and mints are of benefit, especially against both forms of nosema. 

Feeding syrup is unnatural but necessary if we want to increase hive numbers and prevent unnecessary losses on poor years. 

It is a tool. As are essential oils.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

The sticky is up at the beginning to outline what fits the prescribed treatment free protocols. If you want to declare your apairy and your practices as treatment free, the protocols give clear and precise guidance.

Personally, I like HBH and have reworked the recipe for a homemade version. The original commercial product has gone through some revisions, first coming out as a treatment for mites....but golly, that means it's an unapproved pesticide. The labeling changed to calling it a feeding stimulant, but really, do bees need to be stimulated to feed?

Nevertheless, I still like it and use it, but I'm not qualifying myself as treatment free as the forum has laid out. And yes, anything added to the hive has a side effect, whether intended or not, whether benign or detrimental. I see the ideal of going treatment free is to get away from these side effects. Even "natural" products cause problems. Even "organic" doesn't always mean "safe," i.e. formic acid.

I can tell you with great confidence, that feeding HBH does have a nasty side effect of inciting robbing, so if you're going to feed, reduce entrances and don't feed nucs in a yard with strong hives. Experience is a harsh teacher, but she's seldom contradicted.

Grant
Jackson, MO http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/377477 for the home made recipe


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

With no disrespect . I wish to answer the question:

but really, do bees need to be stimulated to feed?

Yes, a pure sucrose solution will not be very attractive to bees, no odor or flavor. Beekeepers have been adding flavor since way before mites, mint, anise, and heated honey(to kill pathogen spores) being used in the far past.

Crazy Roland


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## charliesbees (Dec 13, 2013)

IMHO if we add anything that they can't get on their own, it's not treatment free. If they can't get in in nature, we should do everything in our power not to give it to them. 

In the case of feeding, for starter hives and to get through winter, IF WE HAVE TO, we should. Dead bees are no good to anyone in this case.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

> Then on the flipside feeding sugar is a treatment. Once again bogus term.


Feeding is feeding, not treating. Treatments refer to medications and anything applied to a colony to artificially control a pest. Medications are used to address a disease problem. So, we have FEEDING, MEDICATING, and TREATING. All three different things, done for different reasons. Generally speaking Treating and Medicating would disqualify one from claiming Treatment Free Status. But it isn't like there is a Review Board to Certify your personal claims.

Seems to me like if you apply HBH to try to control nosema, then that's a treatment. Don't ya think?


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Kamon Reynolds said:


> It technically is not treatment free. Truly T.F. is a bogus word. Kind of like organic. "Ya, we feed our bees 100% organic crude oil"
> 
> Then on the flipside feeding sugar is a treatment. Once again bogus term.
> 
> ...


I think essential oils are treatments.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

So Kamon when you pour out a bowl of cheerios what exactly are you treating yourself for?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Cheerios says cholesterol. Least wise that seems to be what they are implying in their adds and on their boxes.

Rice Krispies squares are a different kind of treat[ment].


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

We've already spent time hashing this out before coming up with what is and is not a treatment for this forum. Please accept that for this forum whether you agree or not.


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## Redwards (Dec 7, 2013)

Thanks everyone, I checked out the sticky today and saw that the answer was there, ha. But to tell the truth I like having input from others; I think that's what this is for. Thanks


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Redwards said:


> I can and thought about adding Honey-B-Healthy to the syrup while I am feeding them. Does that really count as treatment free?


As Barry said there is a definition for the purpose of this forum. This is the only place the definitions hold water. TX free is what you define it as, just don't expect everyone to agree with you and I see it more as a spectrum instead of black and white. Do what you wish in your own hives, I think far to many people get hung up on the definition (outside of the forum). 

Welcome to Beesource and beekeeping, it is a fun and sometimes frustrating hobby. However that makes it worthwhile.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does that really count as treatment free?

Semantics are always up to you what you mean by a term or a word but it is helpful for the same of communication to agree at least somewhat what we mean by something so we can communicate clearly.

As already pointed out, for the purposes of this forum the definition on this forum is the scope of the topic on this forum. So it does not count as treatment free for that purpose.

For the purposes of conversation, it is also helpful to have a definition and it seems to me that by any measurement using something that kills off all of the microbes it comes into contact with, and something you are intending to kill microbes is obviously a treatment. The fallout for killing microbes can be quite negative not only because of it's effect on obvious things like the fermentation of bee bread but also the microbes in the gut of the bee that protect it from other microbes. If an antimicrobial additive to the feed isn't treating then what would you say is treating?

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188


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## Redwards (Dec 7, 2013)

That is one thing I really wanted to know; that it kills benificial microbes. It seems that that wouldn't be worth any benifits.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> So Kamon when you pour out a bowl of cheerios what exactly are you treating yourself for?


I actually David can't eat cereal because it lacks certain nourishment that keeps me from having blood sugar issues.

Giving yourself cherrios is like pollen sub you can live on it but your body will be more stressed with it than with something balanced, less processed, and not spray with chemicals.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

I just want to chime in on this. When I started my hives three years now I wanted to do what I could to ensure that the got a good start and didn't want to use chemicals on them. Now the definition on here is this forums own definition which a few decided what was treatment free. I have not used any type of chemical or by that any sort of trap for beetles. I went all foundationless from the beginning and loving that decision. I did though at the beginning go ahead and use essential oils to the sugar water to ensure the had a good feed at the beginning. Now three years they have never been fed since the first four months. I do splits without feeding them either and have been one hundred percent on every split. I have very very strong hives but the are pretty calm until I steal the honey. I also only have used pine needles and wood from what I have picked up off the ground for my smoker fuel. Now my question to you is are my hives treatment free three years down the road because I used essential oils at the beginning to give them a little head start?


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Dont bee crazy


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## charliesbees (Dec 13, 2013)

beecrazy101....Good job. I'm glad to hear your testimony! Really!. From the very get go, I'm only feeding when an EMERGENCY and have one piece of Foam in the cover for insulation...should clarify that on the top of the hives, I have dry sugar to act as a moisture barrier and it also will provides EMERGENCY food ....IF....they run out of honey.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>a few decided what was treatment free

All the users on the forum were encouraged to discuss it and they came up with a general consensus. It was not a few.

> Now my question to you is are my hives treatment free three years down the road because I used essential oils at the beginning to give them a little head start? 

Or in spite of it? What makes you think it was a head start?


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

charliesbees said:


> IMHO if we add anything that they can't get on their own, it's not treatment free. If they can't get in in nature, we should do everything in our power not to give it to them.


In some locations in very dry years that would include water? 

According to the forum rules HBH is considered a treatment. One would think that bees do come into contact with some various plant volatiles naturally in their foraging.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> >Does that really count as treatment free?
> 
> Semantics are always up to you what you mean by a term or a word but it is helpful for the same of communication to agree at least somewhat what we mean by something so we can communicate clearly.
> 
> ...


Does HBH actually have any affect on hive microbiology at all? I have not seen any evidence of this. Maybe it is possible but I am a bit skeptical on this. It certainly will not clear up mites, EFB, or AFB.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does HBH actually have any affect on hive microbiology at all?

All essential oils that I have seen any research on are antimicrobial. They kills yeasts, fungus, bacteria and viruses. That includes lemongrass essential oil, peppermint esential oil etc. Basically it is the immune system of the platns they are removed from. The protection bees have for EFB and AFB is the microbes in their gut.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> >a few decided what was treatment free
> 
> All the users on the forum were encouraged to discuss it and they came up with a general consensus. It was not a few.
> 
> ...


Well I am not going into the rule issue again. But in spite of my essential oils in the beginning I have had no loses of hives because of disease. Now I have lost two because of my own error. But I should know better then to say I gave them a head start because maybe my bees are just that good. When I split them I leave them alone for almost 2 months and when I get into them there always a nice new queen and great brood pattern to start. But the essential oils didnt hinder them in the beginning. They were healthy and built up quickly dispite my splitting them a month and a half after getting two five frame nucs. They built up the first year five to be exact and even gave me some honey. Now everyth8ng I have read on essential oils supports everything I experienced from healthy, calm, disease fighting help and even quick build up. The only essential oils I used was eucalyptus in the bee tea.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

But Micheal the one thing I want to know would my bees be considered treatment free three years down the road dispite using essential oils at the beginning?


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> >Does HBH actually have any affect on hive microbiology at all?
> 
> All essential oils that I have seen any research on are antimicrobial. They kills yeasts, fungus, bacteria and viruses. That includes lemongrass essential oil, peppermint esential oil etc. Basically it is the immune system of the platns they are removed from. The protection bees have for EFB and AFB is the microbes in their gut.


This may or may not be true depending on concentration. The dose makes the difference between poison, or medicine, or food... Concentrations are critical and can be the difference. 

Some oils, such as the beta fraction of hop oil, are only active against gram positive bacteria but not gram negative. I would suspect the inverse could be true for a different particular oil.

I would challenge anybody to document impaired gut microbes or bee bread microbes post label dosage of HBH.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

Well what I an getting at do what you decide is best for your bees. If you think HBH is what you want to use to start out or bee tea with your own essential oil additive then do it. Three four years down the road its not going to make any difference if you want treatment free bees.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

beecrazy101 said:


> But Micheal the one thing I want to know would my bees be considered treatment free three years down the road dispite using essential oils at the beginning?


Well, we havent got that product in Finland, HBH or whatever, but some beekeepers in Finland use thymol as their only treatment. So essential oils are quite effective. But on the other hand if your bees have been without treatments (HBH) for three years in row, I would say that they can be considered as treatment free. 

If, for some reason, your bees have no varroa resistance, I would suspect that you will be seeing total collapse very soon. Have you done any measurements , how many mites there are? Sugar dusting (Marla Spivaks method) or sticky cardboard on the bottom?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>But Micheal the one thing I want to know would my bees be considered treatment free three years down the road dispite using essential oils at the beginning? 

You can consider them whatever you like whenever you like. The definition on this forum is for the sake of defining the scope of the forum.

>I would challenge anybody to document impaired gut microbes or bee bread microbes post label dosage of HBH. 

Feeding just sugar syrup disrupts the microbes but also all antibiotics including but not limited to Terramycin, Tylosin and Fumidil. As shown in research by Martha Gilliam and the more recent one on the gut microbes that I already linked earlier. Now you're going to add a known anti-microbial to the sugar syrup and you don't think it will affect the microbes.

http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/gilliam-archives


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

o


Michael Bush said:


> >But Micheal the one thing I want to know would my bees be considered treatment free three years down the road dispite using essential oils at the beginning?
> 
> You can consider them whatever you like whenever you like. The definition on this forum is for the sake of defining the scope of the forum.
> 
> ...


While it is well accepted that oils have medicinal properties, they must be delivered in the right concentrations to have any affect on microbes or mites. Even the most powerful antibiotic administered at too weak of a dose is very ineffective. Don't get me wrong gut/hive ecology has always been something very important to me and should always be considered. My hypothesis about HBH is that at label concentration it is too weak to negatively affect gut ecology. I certainly think it does not "cure" anything, nor does it claim to. Has anybody actually taken gut or bee bread cultures after its use to see if the probiotic community is actually degraded in any way? If it did, I would suspect it would result in obvious hive decline. My field observations suggest quite the opposite. I like it for calming bees when we combine or mix brood from different hives when making nucs.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Well essential oils are a natural product. Lavender, malaluka, sage, ect.....

I think these plant oils in proper proportions are great asset. Like anything to much can cause more harm then good.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

@beecrazy101 - If you are happy with your bees and the ways you have kept them than it seems odd to wonder if your results "count" under another's system. I am not aware of a certified treatment free program from BeeSource. There are the certified Organic and certified Naturally Grown programs nationally. If you want to claim their label than you need to meet their standards. No such requirement on BeeSource. People debating what treatment free ought to be - yup, we got that. But aside from a beekeeper thinking "yup, I keep my bees consistent with the way stipulated on the BeeSource Treatment Free forum," what does it matter? If you are content believing you have done a good job as a beekeeper, that is what matters.

I have found Honey-B-Healthy to be an effective feeding stimulant. There is debate over the health consequences of the EOs. I have some HBH in the garage somewhere but it is getting buried as the years go by and I choose not to use it. That fact alone doesn't say anything about my beekeeping competence or lack thereof.


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