# Actual weight of 3 lb. package



## greg zechman (Nov 2, 2010)

wow....thats interesting...i also thought they put in a little more for death.. ...may i ask who you got packages from? if you want to email heres my addy [email protected]


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Those are interesting figures that you posted.


> And since they have been unable to use the bathroom, theoretically if you put three pounds of bees in the package, after a few days the bees should weigh more than three lbs.

I believe that you are overlooking at least one issue here. Any creature, including bees and humans, converts food [energy] into muscle movement, and consumes a portion of that food. Energy for moving muscles come from a chemical conversion process of that organism's food. And since one of the outputs of that conversion process is energy, the weight will be reduced. Some of the food mass may be evaporated into the air via respiration (and perspiration for mammals). Even if the bees don't poop in the cage, the combined weight of the bees and syrup will decline over time.

The link below offers more information, although the page is focused around food energy conversion in humans, but it essentially works in a similar way for bees as well:

http://cnx.org/content/m42153/latest/?collection=col11406/latest

.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I recall a similar thread from a while back. The gist of it was that some suppliers were selling 3# (3lb) packages and others were selling #3 (No.3) packages. Last year, I weighed a single package from Rossman's, they came in at 3.1 lbs. net.


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## Andrey Limonchenko (Mar 29, 2013)

I bought packages from two different suppliers and one was definitely smaller and lighter. I won't bring a scale. I just won't order from one of them again.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

You miss the huge loss in weight from resperation of fluids. As mentioned they are useing the syrup, and holding it in will not keep the weight the same. most weight loss is from moisture.

The big guys call it a number 3 now. not a 3lb, as your going to have problems. First off some outfits do weigh out 3.5 lbs. problem is those are fat fresh bees and in 5 days they are way less than 3 lbs, unless you feed the snot out of them thru the screen.

Radners and Roberts both call them number 3, and fill them to just under the bar level in the cage. this is normaly about 4 lbs of Fresh bees. 

Don't use package weight as a measurment for anything, use how the bees do as your yardstick... thats what matters.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Even if the bees don't poop in the cage, the combined weight of the bees and syrup will decline over time.


Well said Rader. I wasn't attempting to imply that 100% of the syrup should have gone toward the bees weight. I was just implying that some of the syrup weight consumed should have been added to the bees weight. When a swarm gets ready to issue, the bees will gorge themselves on honey, in an attempt to have plenty of resources for their new move. Packages are not swarms, but bees shaken from established hives. Some of the bees are likely to have some food in their crops, but not gorged like swarm bees are. When put in the artificial hive (package), more often than not the instinct kicks in for them to store as much resources as possible for the coming move.

More or less, if you took 1 lb of bees, and fed them 1 lb of 1:1 sugar water, naturally they would not, after an hour, weigh 2 lbs together. But one would assume that the bees would weigh around 1 lb, maybe more maybe less, and if they filled up on sugar water they would weigh more than the original 1 lbs. Not a full 2, obviously, but something more than 1.

At least, that's what I was assuming. Very well might be incorrect.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

gmcharlie said:


> Don't use package weight as a measurment for anything, use how the bees do as your yardstick... thats what matters.


Agreed. That's why I put near the end of the original post "Not really that big of a deal in the end. Just interesting." It's not like I'm going to demand some $$$ back, or complain. If the bees do fine in the yard, I don't really care if it weighed 1 lb or 15 lbs. If it doesn't do well in the yard, again it didn't matter if the package weighed in at 0.5 lbs. or 7 lbs. 

My question was more about "industry standard" than me getting jipped. Kinda like wood. Now a 1"x12" board is neither 1" thick, or 12" wide. It's industry standard for it to be 0.75" thick and 11.25" wide. It is what it is. If a 3 lb. package now weighs 2.5 lbs, so be it. Just interesting is all.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

no longer needed


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

good attitude special... you would be amazed at how many complain about little stuff........missing the big picture. I was tickled at how well mine survived. We shook them out Friday night because of storms. I had planned on installing them Monday, but due to weather it was thursday. While I did feed a lot during the week (2 times a day) on top the syrup can. I had little to no change in the number of dead bees in the cages. very pleased with that. and all my syrup cans were still 1/2 full even after 6 days.

The one thing I noticed this morning... instead of the usualy gold drops of bee crap, I had a LOT if 1/2" long string bee poop... like they were constipated..... it was everywhere!.... more than I have ever noticed before.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

_removed_


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> I always thought that package suppliers shook a little bit more than 3 lbs. in each package. I guess I thought wrong
> 
> Anyone else ever notice the same?


Just got 300 3 pounders shook yesterday with Phil, he was running the scale but I know Phil has a green light on the scale when at the 3 plus pound mark. Maybe Phil will chime in


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

no longer needed


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

What was the measurement of the package it's self? Sounds to me like you may have got 2 lb packages. A 3 lb pack measures 16 inches long, 5.5 wide and 7.5 tall. 2 lb packs are shorter.

The packages on the Left are 3# packs and the ones on the Right are 2 lb packs.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

bluegrass said:


> What was the measurement of the package it's self? Sounds to me like you may have got 2 lb packages. A 3 lb pack measures 16 inches long, 5.5 wide and 7.5 tall. 2 lb packs are shorter.
> 
> The packages on the Left are 3# packs and the ones on the Right are 2 lb packs.


Were those taken at Mikes? hes the only one I know useing the red caps....


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

The red caps are actually plugs for PVC pipe. I haven't ever really thought about it, but come to think of it he is the only one I know using them. Yes this was taken last year in his package room.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Rader, you don't think quoting _wikipedia_ to explain a typographical error was a bit overkill?

I'm not upset. Never was. Just thought it was a little over the top. I tried to go further in my response


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> What was the measurement of the package it's self? Sounds to me like you may have got 2 lb packages. A 3 lb pack measures 16 inches long, 5.5 wide and 7.5 tall. 2 lb packs are shorter.


Packages measured in at 16" long, 5.5 wide, and 8.5 tall. They were supposed to be 3 pound packages alright.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Well, I checked the ad that I responded to on the packages, and I'll be darned if it doesn't say "#3" packages, while all the other ads say "3#" packages. I'll be darned. Didn't even notice it at the time.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Rader, you don't think quoting _wikipedia_ to explain a typographical error was a bit overkill?

Not at all. Providing a refererence is not an attack, its simply something I routinely do when I have a suitable reference easily at hand. You can see for yourself if you care to review my posting activity.

As far as a typo, what you posted is not as easily recognized as say, a spelling error. In fact, some people (quite reasonably) believe that a 1x12 is 11.5" wide. That is a reasonable view when you consider that smaller dimensions (up through 1x6s) all are 1/2" smaller than their nominal dimensions. Standard lumber dimensions have changed over time, and its likely that some years ago 1x12s were actually larger than 11.25", but I can't prove that with a link.

At this point I'd normally post a link to an industry reference to support my statements, but in light of your sensitivities I'll forgo that this time. :lookout:

.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

When I get back from GA in May I will check a bunch of mine for comparison and post the results. May be I will take the scale with me and do a pre-trip and post trip just to see what the differences are.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> ll take the scale with me and do a pre-trip and post trip


That would be interesting.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

These package bee outfits can give you 3 lbs. of bees if they want to, its not rocket science. The bottom line is some are honest and some are not. They know most people won't weigh everything out to see if they got their money's worth so they don't sweat it, who can tell the difference between 2 1/2 and 3 lbs. by looking at the bees in the cage. Really, the package bee producers should put in a little extra for die off, but I'm sure some don't look at it that way. This is just another reason why I won't be buying package bees if I can possibly help it. John


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Any creature, including bees and humans, converts food [energy] into muscle movement, and consumes a portion of that food.


This is precisely why they should gain in weight. They are eating and not doing anything else.

However, I would rather get 2.5 pounds of young bees then 4 pounds of old bees just about to kick. What the bee industry should have is a survival rate for each bee supplier where they have to keep records on packages sold vs. packages surviving one year. The higher the rating they achieve the higher price they can demand. Then the consumer can decide if they want to shop at Walmart or Sacs 5th ave.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

What is the difference between # 3 Packages and 3 pound packages ? Is it a standard size box with a certain critical mass VS weight of bees ?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

It great to see that someone has _finally _made a _thoughtful _post in this thread! Way to go, Ace. :lookout:


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

It's my understanding a No.3 package is just a vague way not to guarantee a weight.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Ben Little said:


> What is the difference between # 3 Packages and 3 pound packages ?


From my understanding, a 3# package is just that, at least 3 lbs of bees. A #3 package is a product that they provide, to be distinguished from a #2 package or a #4 package. A #3 package will have more bees in it than a #2 package, but less than a #4 package. It is not a measurement of weight.

In the end, the supplier can take an $85 3 lb. package (which used to contain more than 3 lbs. in most operations), trim it down to 2.5 lbs. of bees, call it a "#3" instead of a "3#", hope the customers get confused (because you aren't explaining to anyone what you are doing), continue to charge $85 for it, and pocket the roughly $12 gain that you make on each package, at the expense of the buyer.

$85 package, including $20 queen = $65 bees
$21.66 per lb., or $10.83 per 1/2 lb.

Then, roll all the missed half pounds into extra packages and cover the bee shortage you had. By reducing the amount of bees in a package by 1/2 lb., for every six packages you make up you've "found" another package.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I am not sure that they are doing "nothing but eating". The majority of bees in the package can't get anywhere near the syrup can. Usually there are only 2-4 holes in the can so a relatively few numbers of bees are feeding and passing syrup off to everybody else. Or they are constantly switching places in the cluster... Either way; they are consuming energy. So a loss in weight isn't necessarily out of the question. 

Anybody who has transported a large number of packages knows that they expel a rather large amount of moisture... which also means a loss of weight. In the 20 or so hrs it takes me to get a load of packages back to New England I go through about 30-40 gallons of water that I give them to drink. Large package haulers have sprinklers set up in their trailers for the same purpose. So if the dealer didn't water the packages in transit a loss in weight is unquestionable because they are alive and breathing.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

It simple really, they bigger guys on the east coast sell more by volume than weight. Actually its fairer way to handle bees and its faster which helps keep the price down. 
Despite some claims that package guys are trying to scam you ( lots of peolpe think someone is out to get them) Every one of the guys is trying to give you good queens and a package that will grow.... these guys bust there buts to do this work. what ahppens in the field is that the "box" is quicly shaken level to see if there are enough bees in it. the big east coast guys are shakein 800-1000 a day. Weighing each one individualy would add to the cost. and in the end would not give you any thing more. 
And NO they will not gain weight becase they are sedentary. HFCS is mostly water and water weight is evaperated by heat. and bees are exothermic.... simple science........

Its not a vauge conspiricy. its a attempt to get the some customers to get real. In any business there customers you would just rather not have........

Blue grass, I have done that, but feel free to do it again... but try something I didn't. feed the bees with a good mist 2 times a day, and see what the loss is. I did that this trip and my death losses totaly vanished for a 6 day hold......
Typicaly weight loss as been about 3% per 24 hour period. The first 48 being heavier, and then slowing down for 4-5 days then accelerating slightly. I only did the test for 7 days and then let them out. the pain was I had to remove the syrup every day to see the actaul "bee loss"


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> The majority of bees in the package can't get anywhere near the syrup can. Usually there are only 2-4 holes in the can so a relatively few numbers of bees are feeding and passing syrup off to everybody else.


That sounds like a major flaw in the design of the feeding apparatus if there is any truth to this. Your alive and breathing. If you sat around Dunken Donuts all day and ate gelly donuts and coffee how thin do you think you would get?

It is my understanding that migratory beekeepers knock the hives down to one or two boxes literally crammed with bees and no room for food. They are on a starvation diet for the trip.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

gmcharlie said:


> And NO they will not gain weight becase they are sedentary. HFCS is mostly water and water weight is evaperated by heat. and bees are exothermic.... simple science........


Your right it is science. Are you running 3 pounds of bees in each deep going to almonds? How much feed are you giving them? They are covered right? These bees are not sedentary. They are busting their hump fanning trying to keep cool. That is not the same thing as a 3 pound package by itself going through the postal service. Check the science out.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Gee Ace, are you having a hard time reading this morning?

_Gmcharlie _is talking about bees in a _package_! You know, that small screened box that package bees are sold in .... Or maybe you have no actual experience with a package, didn't all your purchased bees come from nucs? Almonds??

From another thread this morning where Ace is distributing his wisdom ....


Acebird said:


> A person posts a serious topic and in comes the _high school Harry's_..


What about the high school _Brian's_? :no:

What does Dunkin Donuts have to do with whether bees in a package box gain weight in transit or not? :scratch:

In one post you claim the package bees are gaining weight because they are sedentary, then you later claim they are starving in that package! Which is it?

:digging:

(no offense intended to other Beesource members who may also be named Brian, or Harry)


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

gmcharlie said:


> Despite some claims that package guys are trying to scam you ( lots of peolpe think someone is out to get them) Every one of the guys is trying to give you good queens and a package that will grow.... these guys bust there buts to do this work.


No doubt gm. I don't think anyone in this thread has been calling into question the quality of the queens or bees you get in a package. We are only questioning the volume. At least, I am. Don't confuse a discussion about "quantity" with a discussion about "quality."



gmcharlie said:


> what ahppens in the field is that the "box" is quicly shaken level to see if there are enough bees in it. the big east coast guys are shakein 800-1000 a day. Weighing each one individualy would add to the cost. and in the end would not give you any thing more.


I'm going to have to disagree with you here gm. If 20 years ago package suppliers weighed a package, or filled it up to a "line" in a box, and that line represented 3.5 lbs of bees, and they continued to do it today, there are no added costs. By doing that, the customer should be purchasing the same thing they did 20 years ago. Some are. Some are not. Now, they either weigh it at a lesser amount, or fill it up to a lower line.

Packages 20 years ago (From what I hear, I wasn't keeping then) were 3 lbs. Now some are some are not. So there is nothing about "added costs". It's about changing the volume of what you are selling, but keeping the price. What did a package cost 20 years ago? What does it cost now? I know Mike Palmer showed it in his video, but I don't remember the numbers. Based on my memory, it increased greater than inflation or the consumer price index (although not as much as some other items, such as gas or college tuition). To keep, and increase, the prices of packages, while DECREASING the volume of bees in the package, is something that should be made clear to the consumer to help them make their decision (as it should be a part of a multi prong formula, including survival of the package, customer service, ect).


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

And the 3# or #3 thing does seem intentional. Caveat emptor.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

What good does it do to lower the volume of bees in the package and keep the price the same and still call it a certain pound package? I know I have received package bees in the past that were definitely not all the same volume of bees, anyone could tell the difference, and yes, I am including the dead bees on the bottom. If they are not using a scale on each and every package, they should be, enough of this guessing, with the price of these things you should be getting your money's worth period. John


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> In one post you claim the package bees are gaining weight because they are sedentary,


I didn't claim anything. I pointed out where your feeding concept is wrong.



> If 20 years ago package suppliers weighed a package, or filled it up to a "line" in a box, and that line represented 3.5 lbs of bees, and they continued to do it today, there are no added costs.


Unfortunately that happens a lot today in every commodity. It is the deceitful way of marketing. They will be rewarded handsomely if they can sell a perception rather then the actual product.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jmgi said:


> If they are not using a scale on each and every package, they should be, enough of this guessing, with the price of these things you should be getting your money's worth period. John


Do you think that every individual jar of honey is weighed? That would be absorbing a lot of costs.
You justify expensive metering equipment to control the overages not the underages.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> Packages 20 years ago (From what I hear, I wasn't keeping then) were 3 lbs. Now some are some are not. So there is nothing about "added costs". It's about changing the volume of what you are selling, but keeping the price. What did a package cost 20 years ago? What does it cost now? I know Mike Palmer showed it in his video, but I don't remember the numbers. Based on my memory, it increased greater than inflation or the consumer price index (although not as much as some other items, such as gas or college tuition). To keep, and increase, the prices of packages, while DECREASING the volume of bees in the package, is something that should be made clear to the consumer to help them make their decision (as it should be a part of a multi prong formula, including survival of the package, customer service, ect).


Actually packages 20 years ago were all 2 lb packs... The three lb pack is a newer standard. 
As far as cost goes. I bought my first hive from Sears and Roebuck around 1989-1990. It cost me $65.00 and was a complete hive, bottom board, two brood, two supers, all the frames and foundation, inner and tele cover and the package of bees.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Wow, that was inexpensive. Could not have been any margin for anybody at that price.

Jean-Marc


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Sears didn't become Sears by selling stuff without a margin. Though the year after I bought this hive they closed the catalog division. This was also around the time Canada closed it's border to US packages so the package market took a nose dive and a lot of outfits lost their shirts. For me at the time $65.00 felt like a fortune.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I would bet good hard money that if you had actually weighed packages 20 years ago you would have seen the same results... we just didn't have beesource to gripe!... 
As for sears. I still have some boxes of foundation from the mid 70s that are from sears.......


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

gmcharlie said:


> I would bet good hard money that if you had actually weighed packages 20 years ago you would have seen the same results... we just didn't have beesource to gripe!...


Lol, maybe. But 20 years ago they didn't switch the name from "3#" to "#3". If they were selling bees for less than the weight for over 20 years, why switch the name all of a sudden?


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Not sudden been done for over 5 years........ I cant answer all those, I can just tell you whats been conveyed to me. I have been working closely with several major package guys for the lest few years on a new product. I am Dang sure every one of these guys bust there buts to send out quality bees on time with good queens. and its not an easy task to ship bees and be sure they arrive alive. The post office and UPS love to kill bees, weather is a unpredictible at best, and keeping hives stong is not easy. Watching and helping these guys and seeing there dedication, well to be honest it makes me want to just ________ some of the whiners.... Even some of my customers..... I had two this year who wanted "gaurnted bees" I said guaranty what???? they didn't have a clue.........
so my post are intended to help explain and vouch for the guys ALL of which are way to busy to come to these forums and post.......... Yes I am sure there are a cpl clowns out there.... but dang few.... with about 30 main guys nationwide producing right at 600,000 packages..... these guys are serious about happy customers and bust there buts to do it..... these guys are in the yard working by 7am, and don't quit until well after dark.......and every one will stop to talk to you even if your only picking up 1 package. and so far only 1 has not allowed my full access and pictures.... And that one just didn't want the pictures...... I guess you could say I take it personal when someone runs these fine TOP of the line beekeepers in the ground. without them, most of us would have a lot less to talk about!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

gmcharlie said:


> The post office and UPS love to kill bees,


Come on, they go out of there way to kill bees? I buy chickens through the mail. They have no desire or would they take the extra effort to kill anything. How would you ship coast to coast without their service?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

gmcharlie said:


> I guess you could say I take it personal when someone runs these fine TOP of the line beekeepers in the ground. without them, most of us would have a lot less to talk about!


They make pretty good decaf these days.
I haven't read anything in this thread that disparages dedicated, hard working package producers. Only the seemingly deceptive practice of using #3 where your eye reads 3#. Heck, it took the OP 5 years to notice it. If you're selling bees by volume, why not call it a half gallon of bees?


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Last year Koehoens had UPS put allthere bees in plastic bags cause they were "makeing honey" The post office routinly ignores ventalation and inverts packages that say "this side up" (bees starve) as well as leave them out on the loading docks... There was a bit of sarcasm there, but they definatly don't take the care they did 20 years ago........


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

gmcharlie said:


> The post office routinly ignores ventalation and inverts packages that say "this side up" .


I am sure this is ignorance which may or may not be solved by special handling. I don't know what all the policies of the USPS are. The thing is how do you ship them coast to coast if you don't have their service?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

We went from the weight of a package... to the size of dimensional lumber, to the quality of Toyota vehicles, to the Walmart business model and on to the shipping practices of the Postal Service. Just when I think I have seen it all... this forum never ceases to amaze me.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> We went from the weight of a package... to the size of dimensional lumber, to the quality of Toyota vehicles, to the Walmart business model and on to the shipping practices of the Postal Service. Just when I think I have seen it all... this forum never ceases to amaze me.


Just a regular thread.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

At any rate package production isn't a get rich quick scheme. Many have failed over the years and the entire industry is dependent on Reputation. 

I don't believe there is a Package producer out there intentionally trying to scam anybody. It is a pretty competitive industry which keeps all of the producers on a similar standard.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Just got 300 3 pounders shook yesterday with Phil, he was running the scale but I know Phil has a green light on the scale when at the 3 plus pound mark. Maybe Phil will chime in



To tired to respond before....... Keeping up with Keith and crew even on one of his slow days makes things tough.

I can and will not reply for others. 

A couple of things to remember.

1. Depending on the time of year, time of day and location the weight per bee can very greatly. Full stomachs mean package purchasers are paying for a lot of nectar and less "bee".
A. Its best to shake early in the morning before the foragers have a chance to dump their load into the mouths of the house bees. Especially if the heat and humidity are up. Cool and breezy days it matters less. 

2. Bees.... like all other creatures loose weight when all other inputs are equal....... The longer the time from shake to hiving the larger the disparity in weight......... 




To keep things honest and the process as smooth and quick as possible when pouring we purchased a new "programmable" scale which arrived the day before we shook at Keiths a few days back. 

It not only displays the weight it also has a red ( low) ,yellow ( high), green ( within range) set of lights that display when the bees weigh in a certain range. 

A nice comparator scale that keeps things honest for Keith, myself, and our package purchasers. $1200 well spent. 



If you were to walk in my house right now and turn the scale on you would see that we set the range from 3.00 to 3.25 lbs with the goal 3.15. 

This give a little slack for shrinkage and any bees that fly back when pouring. Simple enough. 


All I can say is that if your not happy with your packages shop elsewhere. Until this fine land gets to the point where your government " supervisor" dictates who and where you must get both your health insurance and package bees from your still in luck...... and free. Well.......partially!


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## alchemybees (Feb 10, 2013)

This has been a fascinating thread from the OP to the stream of consciousness to this last post. I love to see the data but I really love to see the results. In the end, I'll vote with my pocketbook. The good product and service will get my repeat business and kudos on a forum and the poor ones will get a dishonorable mention and not a penny more. Thanks to the OP for collecting the data and for starting this cool thread.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

gmcharlie said:


> Last year Koehoens had UPS put allthere bees in plastic bags cause they were "makeing honey" The post office routinly ignores ventalation and inverts packages that say "this side up" (bees starve) as well as leave them out on the loading docks... There was a bit of sarcasm there, but they definatly don't take the care they did 20 years ago........


Well, well, well Mr. Charlie...........Lets play the blame UPS game. Koehnens run a fabulous ship but I would bet a 1000 bucks that the "honey" was a leaking syrup can. That or they shook the bees on a honey flow and the bees got to hot and threw up all over themselves and it leaked out, UPS happens to have other customers who really don't want their packages arriving all sticky....... Can you blame them for bagging them. 

As someone whose customers fork out over 30k a year for shipping bees overnight each year (all over the US) I know what the issue is. Our success rate went up 5- 7 points when we "cannned" the syrup cans. Especially the kind Koehnens use. Since every package gets shook in the morning and are in the customers hands by 6 pm the next evening the necessity of the extra mess and weight of a syrup can is just a disaster waiting to happen. Our success rate in getting live bees to people has hovered at 98.5- 98.7 % the last three years since the cans went bye-bye. Swarms live in trees longer than 48 hours all the time. 

Pickup packages is another story... They get the feed and I let the customers determine what appropriate handling is to keep the syrup in the cans. 

BTW not sure if UPS shipped bees 20 years back.......


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Honey-4-All said:


> Our success rate in getting live bees to people has hovered at 98.5- 98.7 % the last three years since the cans went bye-bye. Swarms live in trees longer than 48 hours all the time.


This is the kind of thing I was wondering about, overnight shipping and one other thing. Why isn't a brick of sugar or candy used as feed for shipments? Wouldn't that make more sense to control the sticky mess?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Honey-4-All said:


> All I can say is that if your not happy with your packages shop elsewhere.


Agreed. I'm not one for complaining. I'm one for purchasing elsewhere if I didn't like the quality (or the quantity, in this case). 

But I was mainly just interested if anyone else measured their packages recently. If mine were average, in that you shake at 3.15 lbs and they arrive at 2.9 lbs 48-72 hours later, well then it isn't anything wrong with this supplier and it all comes down to genetics. Without comparison, who knows. Of course I could purchase from someone else next year and compare. Always an option.



alchemybees said:


> Thanks to the OP for collecting the data and for starting this cool thread.


You're welcome. Glad it could be a thoughtful conversation.



Honey-4-All said:


> BTW not sure if UPS shipped bees 20 years back.......


I imagine it was only the USPS 20 years ago. 

I didn't even think UPS shipped them today. Live and learn.


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## sergie (Feb 20, 2012)

There is another aspect of packages that I don't quite understand. Some package sellers charge more for one shipped over pick up. Seen as high as double the prices but mostly around a 50% increase and you still have to pay for shipping charges. Why such a drastic increase in price for a shipped package over one thats picked up? 

Disclaimer: No judgement being made just would like to be better informed.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

A recent thread started by DC Honeybees. Evidently he went down and made a video of the supplier filling some of his packages.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?279972-Packaging-Bees-In-Patterson-Georgia-VIDEO
If you watch the video....I didn't see anything that resembled a scale. It was pretty clear to me that they were filling those packaged by volume. But....if anyone is really curious, you could probably ask him.


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## SippyBees (Feb 17, 2004)

My mentor JN Russell sold packages and queens... I know how he did it, but have no idea if every package producer does it the same way. I do know though that if you did not like his packages you would never have to worry about buying another one... and still he had more orders than he could fill! 
I don't know how many producers weigh their bees before packaging... but JN didn't. He used a small stainless wire box that slides into the bottom of a funnel. You shake the bees into the funnel until the small cage at the bottom was full.. as you slide in a new empty cage the full one comes out. The full cage is poured directly into the package box and queen/syrup inserted. The cage he used is the same cage he has always used. I never measured it, but assumed it was roughly 3 #'s of bees. It was a standard... didn't change... didn't need to change. Will every package weigh exactly the same? I doubt it. Will it matter? I doubt it. 
But the thing about spending your hard earned money and getting ripped off.... if you REALLY think that getting 2.73 pounds of bees instead of the advertised 3# really matters to you.... don't buy from them anymore.
I know if I sold bees, I want happy customers ... I WANT them to be happy doing business with me. I will sell bees anyway the customers want them.... and I HOPE I am never accused of shortchanging anyone. I doubt however that I will weigh every package.... I will measure by a known volume that SHOULD be 3#'s. 
Honestly... if you never sold packages or queens.... it is easy to criticize anything about what you buy... but if you don't like them, just buy from them anymore... simple.
Maybe there are unscrupulous packagers occasionally... but I dont think they represent a large number. People that sell inferior products end up out of business before too long. But from a sellers perspective.... a single customer cannot expect to get a whole lot of special treatment ... like many of them DO expect.
FWIW


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

SippyBees said:


> a single customer cannot expect to get a whole lot of special treatment ... like many of them DO expect.


I think you mean a single package not a single customer.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

sergie said:


> There is another aspect of packages that I don't quite understand. Some package sellers charge more for one shipped over pick up. Seen as high as double the prices but mostly around a 50% increase and you still have to pay for shipping charges. Why such a drastic increase in price for a shipped package over one thats picked up?
> 
> Disclaimer: No judgement being made just would like to be better informed.


Once again not speaking for others..... 

Here are some of our reasons:

1. Most shipped packages (ups) are small orders which means more work per package: Less secretarial work. less labeling, less complaints in general BECAUSE THE BIG ORDER FOLKS TEND TO KNOW A LITTLE MORE WHAT THEY ARE DOING. 

2. Higher risk involved when the packages are not cared for by the producer or the purchaser. (TIME IN TRANSIT ISSUES) 

3. In order to keep our success rate high we custom build the shipping boxes with lots of amenities for both ventilation, damage prevention, and numerous other types of bee loss's 
a. This is neither cheap from either a time or material expense comparison as opposed to the regular old "packages" 

4. Our shipped price includes a nightly trip to visit the UPS planes in either Sacramento or Oakland. We hold on to them till they "have to leave" 
No handing them over to a driver. This eliminates the losses in the truck, distribution center and the second truck going to the plane. 

5. A dozen other reasons to long to list.


Shipped packages may or may not be more expensive in the big picture. They are certainly can be more convenient for the customer in many situations. 

For those who need to drive 100 miles one way to pick up a small order our service through UPS is right on track when all your true costs are included. On the other hand: If you live in bee country and want 100 it would be insane to pay the expenses that UPS requires to get them there promptly. 

Like everything else in life people must weigh the cost vs benefit vs risk assessment and go from there.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

SippyBees said:


> if you REALLY think that getting 2.73 pounds of bees instead of the advertised 3# really matters to you.... don't buy from them anymore.


There is a difference between having one package arrive at 2.61 lbs, and having the AVERAGE package arrive at 2.61 lbs. On a single package, it isn't a big deal. On volume, it becomes a bigger deal. If you bought 10 packages, it's akin to telling the buyer you'd be happy enough just picking up 9, and donating the extra money on the 10th. Or, buying 100 and only picking up 90 and saying "close enough." Not exactly.


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## sergie (Feb 20, 2012)

Honey-4-All said:


> Here are some of our reasons:
> <snip>


I assumed 1&2. #3.  (couldn't resist) I did not know. 4 I would have never imagined. Thanks for sharing and I know where i'll get my packages when I order them.

@OP I do agree the #3/3# thing is a bit confusing and can understand if some one felt tricked by it. However, whats the solution? Label them small, medium, large, or jumbo? Personally I think the buyer has to do their due diligence. In many cases that is as easy as asking a question. Most businesses will gladly answer coustomers questions and concerns simply because an informed coustomer is usually a happy one. As Honey-4-All just demonstrated. Those that are unwilling to comunicate never get my business.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

sergie said:


> However, whats the solution?


Short run ---> don't buy from someone who has short changed you in the past.
Long run ---> have customers demand that packages be sold in the standard unit of measurement they always have been . . . weight.

Relabeling packages anything (even small medium or large) is the same exact problem as labeling them package "#2, #3, or #4". It leaves ambiguity in the system that didn't exist before you chose to rename them. And no one chose to rename them because the old system left the customers confused or uncertain on what they were getting. They chose to rename them because (in my opinion) either they could put less bees in a package and call it a day while charging you the same as they used to, or they sell you what you probably think is a 3# package and if you weigh it and find out it's not they can ask you "where did I tell you it was a 3 *POUND* package? I just said it was a *NUMBER* 3 package." It's tough for a customer to walk away from that transaction without feeling like they got taken advantage of. Even if it wasn't the intention of the seller (which I'm sure it wasn't).

In the super long run, I won't ask questions about what I'm getting. I want a supplier that I can trust and that I don't need to second guess. And the supplier wants a customer that is satisfied with what they get and they don't bug the crap out of them over whether one package is 2.5 lbs or 3.1 lbs. I don't know that asking any questions would have avoided this situation either. What would I have asked? "Hi, are your 3 lb packages ACTUALLY 3 pounds in weight of bees?" The answers would have ranged from "yes" to "well, they are '#3' packages, not '3#' packages, and they contain approximately 3 pounds of bees, but not exactly, as some are over and some are under" to "[CLICK]". I would highly doubt that any supplier would respond by saying "actually, our #3 packages average 2.61 lbs of bees".

But this is all assuming that they left the bee yard under 3 lbs in weight. Which after reading this thread they may, or may not have. Who knows.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I used one supplier ,my brother another. My packages weighed a little over or a little under 3 LBs. Weighing a flying insect, that is pretty impressive. His packages were visably closer to 4 lbs. I switched. Not because of the weight, it is the bee in the middle that matters. His queens were better.
I get packages are part of a sound business plan, they were never part of my hobby plan. My solution is simple to plan, harder to do; first, be a better beekeeper and then get a better bee.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Specialkayme said:


> But this is all assuming that they left the bee yard under 3 lbs in weight. Which after reading this thread they may, or may not have. Who knows.


The single package I weighed (3.1)got to me less than 24 hrs after they were shook.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

May be the whole industry should go to selling packages by the bee. 15000 bee packages for sale.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Honey-4-All said:


> Well, well, well Mr. Charlie...........Lets play the blame UPS game. Koehnens run a fabulous ship but I would bet a 1000 bucks that the "honey" was a leaking syrup can. That or they shook the bees on a honey flow and the bees got to hot and threw up all over themselves and it leaked out, UPS happens to have other customers who really don't want their packages arriving all sticky....... Can you blame them for bagging them.
> 
> 
> Agreed Problem was just an example and We both know it was syrup.....And yes I do blame them for bagging them... you would think at least one person would realize that would kill them.....But your stock in UPS will not go down. my point was that A lot of problems arise in shipping. Spent an hour on the phone today with UPS... fixing problems....... They do a fine job, just don't expect it to be trouble free, or the price to be a bargin. I didn't intend this to turn the topic in UPS or USPO reviews, and skew the thread, just to point out its more difficult that mailing a letter, and that the quality has degraded.....


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

A (probably premature) update on the 5 packages. As everyone mentioned, performance matters so much more than quantity. So I checked today to see if there was a good queen release (and if eggs were present). Out of 5 packages, all 5 successfully released their queens, and 3 appeared just fine overall. One had emergency cells, and few other eggs, suggesting that the queen was poor or not properly mated. Not definitive, of course. One showed no signs of eggs, queen, or anything. I gave that one a frame of eggs from an established hive to see how they do.

Time will tell, but if 40% had queen problems, not too happy so far.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

May I ask the origin of the packages?


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## tedw200 (Mar 4, 2009)

I don't care so much about the exact weight, I for one order a 3 lb. package and know that the bees I wanted I got. It is all about the bee you want and be happy with their results.
It is hard to estimate if you have 3 lbs. or 3.2 lbs. out in the field.
I the supplier had to weigh each and every single package he would have to charge at least 50% more for the bees because of the time it would take to get 3 or 4 more bees in there for you.
And no I am not a bee supplier, just a novice BEEK!


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

tedw200 said:


> I the supplier had to weigh each and every single package he would have to charge at least 50% more for the bees because of the time it would take to get 3 or 4 more bees in there for you.


I expect this is a joke.

The costs would increase to provide exact weights, no doubt. But one supplier on here already admitted that he purchased a scale that will get him within a range that's acceptable (and not .5 lbs short), at a cost of $1,200. How many packages does a producer make a year? If the going rate for packages is roughly $85, do you really think it will take that package producer $42.50 worth of EXTRA time to weight the package? Seriously? If he bought that $1,200 machine, do you think he would only sell 29 packages that year (and then the machine would break, requiring you to buy it again next year)?

If some are already weighing the packages, and are charging prices in the same range as those that are not, it proves that its possible to actually account for what you are selling, and not "eye balling" it.

We are also not talking about "3 or 4 more bees". There are 3,500 bees to a lb (on average). My packages were under weight by 6.1 oz (on average). Meaning each package was under by 1,300 bees (on average). That many bees is noticeable, especially to the trained eye, whether you are in the field or not.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

cg3 said:


> May I ask the origin of the packages?


In short, I don't know. They came from GA, and were provided through a middle man. When I asked the middle man where they came from (before I ordered), he told me "a producer in Georgia". He became uncomfortable, and somewhat defensive, when I asked what apiary. I think he suspected I was trying to steal his source or something. I don't know.

I was in a bind as my nuc provider backed out, and I had few options that late in the season.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well then who is the middle man? Someone on the forum might know who his supplier is.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Specialkayme said:


> I was in a bind as my nuc provider backed out, and I had few options that late in the season.


When I am in that position the guy who came through for me gets a lot of leeway. Vote with your wallet. (At least if it is not a field of one.)
I am a spec kind of guy so I do get your point, up to a point. Many customers only see one suppliers product, if they do ask around, they only know people who know only have used one supplier. Glad I had a choice in suppliers, this is his last year.
It is the queen that really matters and only time proves her. Got to like a guy who gives good measure, if only as a sign of his queen..


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> In short, I don't know. They came from GA, and were provided through a middle man. When I asked the middle man where they came from (before I ordered), he told me "a producer in Georgia". He became uncomfortable, and somewhat defensive, when I asked what apiary. I think he suspected I was trying to steal his source or something. I don't know.


Call him back and tell him you need a Health Cert. If he is transporting bees interstate he is legally required to provide the Health Cert if you request it. The health cert has the producer listed on it.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Status update:

In the end, one queen ended up being a drone layer. Two others were superceded (one of which wouldn't lay at all, the other only put out a half a frame of eggs so the workers could overthrow her). After 3 months, these three hives are about 7-8 deep frames a piece.

Another package expanded into 20 deep frames, and appears fairly healthy.

The last package expanded into 20 deep frames and 10 medium frames, and tried to throw off a swarm yesterday (although I caught it and made a split instead).

So, one appears to be doing fantastic, one average, and three substantially sub-par. That, plus all the weights were low, won't be going back.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Your certianly entitled to go where you like!,, Looks to me like your math is off though, 3-29 to 6-1 is 2 months...... All suppliers had problems with queens this year..... I used bees from 3 different sources and queen issues were normal this year.... about 25% queen problems this year. The ones I installed on 3-28 75% or done with double deeps and into supers. a few are into the 2nd supers...


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

25% queen problems is about what we experienced in 50 pkgs from the same GA supplier that gave us nearly 100% success last year.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

I installed my first bees this year, and they were packages from Olivarez. They were both nominally 3 lb each, but I did not weigh them. One was significantly heavier than the other and both were in excellent shape (5-10 dead bees in each, live bees in apparent good health). So, was one 'short' and the other on weight or above? Were both short or both above? In the end, since I am a hobbyist, it really doesn't matter to me. I received good bees that have built up well. The queens are laying very well. 

Still, the OP brings up an interesting question, one that I was glad to read and which I had not considered. In any measurement, there is error. 3 lb on one scale may read as 3.1 lb on another and 2.9, 2.6, or even 3.4 on others. Add to that uncertainty the loss of weight through water loss (respiration, depends on temperature and humidity during transit) and there's yet another variable thrown in.

Why not perform an experiment? Fill a package, weigh it. Fill a milk jug with enough water to weigh the same as the package. Put the package in the garage or shed for 2 days, weigh it and the milk jug again on the same scale. I'll bet that there will be a loss of weight for the package.


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