# Nosema



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Nosema seems like a hard egg to crack , we can't easily test for it without lab equip. , we need to kill 100 bees every time we want to send out a sample and I'm darn sure I don't want antibiotics in my honey . How prevalent is it , is anyone loosing colonies because of it and how many are treating with fumagilin-B , seems like we can possibly stay ahead of varroa on are own with various treatments but how do we deal with nosema .


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Looked it up on Wikipedia. It isn't an antibiotic, it's an antimicrobial.

How prevalent is Nosema? It's hard to find bees that don't have it to a greater or lesser degree from what I have heard.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

laketrout said:


> but how do we deal with nosema .


Out here on the left coast we feed Nutra Bee sub it has a built in Micro-flora builder in it which competes with nosema spores. 
I beleive this is explaned right, I hope it makes sense.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> we can't easily test for it without lab equip


Why not send some to Beltsville and let them test them for free. they'll also give you a mite count.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

camero7 said:


> Why not send some to Beltsville and let them test them for free. they'll also give you a mite count.


How do you get a mite count from a Nosema sample?


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## Jon B (Apr 24, 2013)

I used fumagilin-B for the first time two years ago. It seamed to lower the amount of dysentery I saw in my hives, but we also had a mild winter. I tried it again last year and it didn't seem to help at all. We had the coldest winter in fifty years and I saw dysentery all over my hives. I also lost half my hives last winter. This year I'm not planning on using fumagilin-B. I have read several places that extra feeding of sugar syrup with Honey-B-Health or Pro-Health will also help.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> How do you get a mite count from a Nosema sample?


You send some bees and they check for both. Do it every year.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Where are you taking your sample of bees from?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

From the cluster on dead outs. From the brood area on live hives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I didn't know that they are able to handle dead bees and tell anything from them. Not from deadouts. Interesting.

I got my NHBS Report from NY State this last week and the chart showing Average nosema per bee using the sampling techniques done by NYS and USDA ARS are quite interesting and make me wonder why USDA ARS samples from the comb and not from the entrance as NYS does. USDA ARS samples young nurse bees from the brood comb area and NYS samples foraging bees from the entrance.

Here are some of the differing results in millions of spores per bee, state sample first and then federal sample. 1.77 and 0.00, 1.23 and 0.30,1.58 and 0.05,7.43 and 0.50,1.325 and 0.05.

All of the samples were taken from the same hives, but from different places in the hive according to the different techniques.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I have my own scope and have noticed that dead bees on the landing board or in front of the hive are often loaded with nosema. Bees from the top board or the brood area in the same hives are usually nosema free. Makes me believe the sick bees leave the hive, particularly in the late fall or winter when I do most of the sampling. Most samples I sent to Beltsville were nosema free.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Maybe because they weren't old enough to show?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Bees on the top board should be older forager bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not meaning to seem difficult, but what is the "top board"? And where is it located?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

probably should have said the migratory cover.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I c. So, from under the cover. Eh? I guess as long as you get consistent and meaningful information, that's what counts.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I know its a drop in the bucket but I hate to kill 100 bees for one test .And is there any good natural treatments that work, I really don't want to start loading up the hive with antibiotics etc.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lt, fumigilin, isn't an antibiotic. Besides, what you put in bee feed, aka syrup, now won't show up in honey you harvest next year.

Ask Keith about what he has in his protein patty.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I've been reading quite a bit about fumagilin b and its not all good-- Fumagilin-B = Bicyclohexyl-ammonium fumagillin, whose trade name was Fumadil-B (Abbot Labs) but now seems to be called Fumagillin-B, is a whitish soluble antibiotic powder discovered in 1952; some beekeepers mix this with sugar syrup and feed it to bees to control Nosema disease. Fumagillin is more soluble than Fumadil. Its use in beekeeping is outlawed in the European Union because it is a suspected teratogen (causes birth defects). Fumagillin can block blood vessel formation by binding to an enzyme called methionine aminopeptidase. Targeted gene disruption of methionine aminopeptidase 2 results in an embryonic gastrulation defect and endothelial cell growth arrest. It is made from the fungus that causes stonebrood, Aspergillus fumigatus. Formula: (2E,4E,6E,8E)-10-{[(3S,4S,5S,6R)- 5-methoxy-4-[2-methyl-3-(3-methylbut-2-enyl) oxiran-2-yl]-1-oxaspiro[2.5]octan-6-yl]oxy}- 10-oxo-deca-2,4,6,8-tetraenoic acid --

Also I see mention of the antibiotics building up in the comb where they could stay for who knows how long and eventually making its way into your honey at some point down the road who knows for sure.Haven't been able to find a good alternative that is natural , what are we suppose to use ?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>what are we suppose to use ? 

For 40 years now, I've used nothing with good effect. It's the bacteria in the gut of the bee that protects it from Nosema. Antibiotics (and yes Fumigillan is an antibiotic) will disrupt that. In other words, using Fummigillan will make the bees more susceptible to Nosema.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Michael , would any of the honey b healthy products or similar help the bees at all with dysentery and or nosema , if there basically just essential oils maybe they wouldn't interfere with the bees gut material or don't they really do much in the long run .


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> lt, fumigilin, isn't an antibiotic.


From Michael Bush : Antibiotics (and yes Fumigillan is an antibiotic) 

Who is correct?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

laketrout said:


> Haven't been able to find a good alternative that is natural , what are we suppose to use ?


Mark, you can please some of the folks some of the time & some you can't reach.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Keith ,What are you trying to say , I can take it , I'm just trying to learn as much as I can to keep my hives alive .


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

snl said:


> From Michael Bush : Antibiotics (and yes Fumigillan is an antibiotic)
> 
> Who is correct?


Well, either Michael Bush or wikipedia. But, now I'm not sure.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Mark, you can please some of the folks some of the time & some you can't reach.


Well, I guess a guy has to figure out which way they want to go in life and then they best be satisfied when they get there. Or go some other way when things don't turn out the way they wish.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

I think he's trying to say that Nutra-Bee would solve your nosema problems. Problem is, I have no idea how to get it on the right coast. I don't need several thousand pounds.


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## SWM (Nov 17, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Well, either Michael Bush or wikipedia. But, now I'm not sure.


*Antimicrobials* - a general term for any compound with a direct action on micro-organisms used for treatment or prevention of infections. Antimicrobials are inclusive of anti-bacterials, anti-fungals and anti-protozoals.

*Antibiotics* - synonymous with anti-bacterials.

It's generally accepted today that anti-biotics should not be used for the prophylactic treatment of anything. That's why it's no longer recommended we treat with terramycin for the prevention of AFB, which was once standard procedure. While there's a good chance I may have Nosema in some hives on occasion, I've never seen it as a big threat and have never treated for it.

ETA: I would not hesitate to use anti-biotics when it was recommended to treat a disease where I had a positive diagnosis. Contamination should not be a problem if only used in the brood chambers with no supers on the hives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

SWM said:


> Contamination should not be a problem if only used in the brood chambers with no supers on the hives.


Which is what I said, but some people are absolutists I guess.

Thanks for clearing that up about anti-microbials and antibiotics.

Were a samples of bees taken from the entrance of your colony(ies) diagnosed to have 3 million nosema spores per bee what would you do? And would you treat all of the colonies in the yard even though the sample came from a number of colonies, but not all of them?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The OP asked:

how do we deal with nosema . ??

And that, my friends, is the 64,000 dollar question. Nosema levels can be hard to quantify. So read up, and choose wisely. Learn what the signs of nosema are. Nosema can be expensive, like 64,000 dollars lost expensive


.

Crazy Roland


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## SWM (Nov 17, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Were a samples of bees taken from the entrance of your colony(ies) diagnosed to have 3 million nosema spores per bee what would you do? And would you treat all of the colonies in the yard even though the sample came from a number of colonies, but not all of them?


Since I'm not currently testing for nosema it would have to be a drastic situation where I had very heavy losses that were unexplainable before I would even test. If I did treat, it would probably just be the infected colonies. While I'm not opposed to using antibiotics (used some years ago to clean up EFB in a few colonies), nosema is just not a big concern for me right now. There also seems to be some question about the affectiveness of Fumagillin on nosema ceranae. So this doesn't help the OP with his question because I'm doing nothing. But I'm keeping an open mind and reserve the right to change it at any time.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

Kieth, What data or research do you have that shows the addition of pre bitotics or micro floria builder or yeast cell wall (what left over after they take the good stuff out of brewers yeast) helps to competes with nosema?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

David, not only with lab results but queen producer like Kevin Ward, lenny Pankrazt ect... with years of problem free results.

Kevin has seen the hard data, the ONLY one that I would show to. Hope that helps.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

Keith, geeezzzz hoping you had real results and data not testimonials I guess I'll put that info in the BEESHIELD PILE.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Labs results & feild results , I'm sorry that didn't help.


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## capt44 (Jun 22, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Labs results & feild results , I'm sorry that didn't help.


I use Fumagilin-B in the fall in this beeyard.
I have 3 other beeyards that I use a Home made Pro-Health recipe.
In the recipe it uses Tea Tree Oil which helps with Nosema.
Over the past 2 or 3 years I've had good results with both.


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

I bought a microscope and spent a little time with randy O to get comfortable using it. I have been working with a couple other commercial beeks in the area and have all but quit using fumagil. We do make our own HBH home brew, not sure if that helps or not but so far had good results. Also Keith it might be worth your time to set up a web site or find some other way for people to find out about your product , maybe testimonials with some of your well known customers in various area of the country or even some sort of comparison tests, I don't think anybody with a lick of business sense would expect you to give up proprietary info/ recipe . best to all GB


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## mountainbeek (Oct 5, 2013)

davidsbees said:


> Kieth, What data or research do you have that shows the addition of pre bitotics or micro floria builder or yeast cell wall (what left over after they take the good stuff out of brewers yeast) helps to competes with nosema?


Maybe this might help. The following is from researchers over at the medical microbiology division of Lund University of Sweden, "*In 2005 Tobias Olofsson and Alejandra Vásquez discovered that a large battery of beneficial bacteria resides within honeybees in a structure called honey crop. The honey crop is the organ where honeybees collect nectar for honey production.

The discovery of novel Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) within honeybees and their honey have started a new research at Lund University and it extends to three different research areas:

Functional food
Medical applications
Bee health

These LAB are symbionts of honeybees and show very interesting properties that we are currently characterizing.

Our research focus into the antimicrobial properties of these novel bacteria in order to apply them in functional food and as alternative medical tools against infections. Moreover, we investigate their role in bee health in collaboration with other universities.

We are a multidisciplinary research group and have collaboration with national and international universities around Europe and with the industry*."

They make SymBeeotic. 








More on SymBeeotic, "*SymBeeotic is a probiotic for honeybees, to increase the health (and therefore production) of the bee population. When Symbeeotic is added to the colony, the bees ingest the solution with the probiotic bacteria. There is also a trickle down effect, as the bees will feed their larvae with bacteria, providing a long term protection. Increasing health without antibiotics is essential, since residues can be found in the honey and contribute to antibiotic resistance. Symbeeotic is the only product that targets and increases the bees´ own resistance, which is crucial when the hives are fighting of multifactorial diseases.*"

Also see a part the ongoing research of the antibiotic molecule, Fumagillin, by the Carl Hayden Honeybee Research Center in Arizona by reading preliminary results in the study called Testing a novel honey bee probiotic formulation. In this 2010 study, researchers found that bees will feed less when fed the Fumagillin molecule.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

G B said:


> I don't think anybody with a lick of business sense would expect you to give up proprietary info/ recipe


Keith, I don't have a lick of business sense, so GIVE UP the recipe!!! You can PM me, I won't tell!!!


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

Now that's funny...




snl said:


> Keith, I don't have a lick of business sense, so GIVE UP the recipe!!! You can PM me, I won't tell!!!


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

laketrout said:


> Michael , would any of the honey b healthy products or similar help the bees at all with dysentery and or nosema , if there basically just essential oils maybe they wouldn't interfere with the bees gut material or don't they really do much in the long run .


essential oils are not necessarily safe, if one oil is used as an antibiotic it would kill good bacteria just as well as the bad stuff the same as a chemical antibiotic, some essential oils are more dangerous than pharmaceutical antibiotics.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Spreeider, very very well said.
one must be very carful when mixing, one can very easy do more harm than good.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Plant Supplements (Nettle, Protofil Onion Garlic,Thyme, Echinacea)added polyphenols, flavonoids, Antioxidant increase brood. 
Protofil is a product made with (Taraxacum officinalis – dandelion; Thymus vulgaris – savory; Achillea millefolium – chamomile; Ocimumbasilicum – basil and others) for nosema treatment

http://www.usab-tm.ro/fileadmin/fzb...HEMISTRY,BIOPHYSICS,MATHEMATICS/Marghitas.pdf

probiotics reduce EFB...
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188

Effect of sugar, vitamins, pollen patties, fumagillin on hives (just adding vitamin and electolite to syrup increased brood, bees and lower death rate.
http://scialert.net/qredirect.php?doi=pjbs.2006.589.592&linkid=pdf

probiotics fatter bees, lower death rate
"IMPROVEMENT OF THE COMPOSITION OF POLLEN SUBSTITUTE FOR HONEY BEE (Apis mellifera L.),THROUGH IMPLEMENTATION OF PROBIOTIC PREPARATIONS"


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >what are we suppose to use ?
> 
> For 40 years now, I've used nothing with good effect.


Wow! my exact thoughts. Michael you rule.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I think more effort should be made towards why my bees are getting sick instead of how I should treat them with chemicals.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Yes I completely agree, but if you could give your bees a herbal tea added in syrup that would reduce nosema, increase brood, increase frames of bees, lower mortality rate, make fatter bees and possibly improve immunity, wouldn't that be good too?

http://www.usab-tm.ro/fileadmin/fzb...HEMISTRY,BIOPHYSICS,MATHEMATICS/Marghitas.pdf


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well here again Michael Bush thinks smaller bees stand up to varroa better than fat bees. I am not convinced that herbal teas or essential oils are the answer for bee either.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Acebird said:


> ..... Michael Bush thinks smaller bees stand up to varroa better than fat bees.


Thinking and KNOWING it are very different.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

snl said:


> Thinking and KNOWING it are very different.


I'm pretty sure he knows it. You might not believe it. But then again you are trying to cash in on the treatment merry go round.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I'm pretty sure he knows it.


Brian ........ 
Being pretty sure he knows it and KNOWING he knows it are entirely different. Do you presume to speak for Michael now or are you reading his mind?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Well here again Michael Bush thinks smaller bees stand up to varroa better than fat bees.


Are you sure that it's not small cell bees that are fat that he prefers?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

In his lectures he uses the term smaller bees. I am not sure what a smaller fat bee would be.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

SNL , Why hasn't OAV been approved in the USA yet , and how can it be sold in the USA if it hasn't been approved . Is it a personal use thing.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Oxalic acid is registered and sold as a pesticide/disinfectant to control bacteria/germs. It also has non-pesticide uses such as _wood bleach_. It is perfectly legal to sell it. More here:

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/4070fact.pdf


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Because it is not a pesticide. It is found in plants and foods naturally.

The same reason formic acid is not registered as a pesticide.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, the EPA says there are registered formic acid pesticide products for treating mites in hives, including Mite-Away II. More here:

http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/chem_search/reg_actions/registration/fs_PC-214900_01-Apr-05.pdf


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

laketrout said:


> Why hasn't OAV been approved in the USA yet , and how can it be sold in the USA if it hasn't been approved .


Largely because there is no profit in doing so as a miteacide. The field trials of most most treatments take years and then the treatments are proprietary to the company producing the product. OA already exists. As some have stated, OA is perfectly legal in the US, HOWEVER its use as a miteacide in beehives is not and may never happen. Right now beekeepers using OA as a miteacide are doing so outside of regs. 

We in the US are using the successful usage of field trials of users in Europe and other countries as the basis for considering OA as a valid treatment for mites even tho it is illegal to use as a miteacide in the US.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

In the winter of 2012/13 I lost 15 of 20 hives. Sampling from Beltsville showed 10,500,000 Nosema spores per 100 bees. They stated that 1,000,000 was considered high. So, my count was over 10 times that. I concluded that Nosema had killed the bees. Research said that Nosema apis caused dysentery, but Nosema ceranae did not. I didn't see any dysentery. I think that since Nosema ceranae is fairly new in the US, that maybe it just got around to my locale at that time or maybe conditions happened to be just right for a Nosema ceranae explosion in my area.

I found a university study that discovered that UV light from direct sunlight would kill 90% of Nosema spores. I put woodenware out in the sun and used black lights on the comb of the deadouts. I did nothing to the live hives. All 5 survivors are still alive. I didn't treat at all with Fumigillan (My bess have been treatment free for about 10 years). I have 20 hives again now and so far (knock on wood) they look healthy.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

heaflaw said:


> I think that since Nosema ceranae is fairly new in the US, that maybe it just got around to my locale...


Nosema C. has almost definitely been widespread in the US at least as long as varroa. Preserved samples from bees in Maine (which are very unlikely to be a special isolated population) from 1985 showed 30% of samples were positive for nosema C.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Re: using unapproved treatments and/or delivery methods of approved treatments:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?195371-Adees-fined-for-unapproved-chemical-use


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

While I won't question the seriousness of high nosema counts I will question that fumagillan (or any other treatment for that matter) NECESSARILY results in low spore counts. A few years back (when nosema ceranae became the latest disease du jour) I was reviewing my fall nosema counts with the state bee inspector. He said ours were some of the lowest he had seen and asked me what I was doing to get numbers like that. I said ummmm, errrrr, nothing. I had only used Fumagillan once the year before, it seemed kind of pricy and I wasn't convinced I was seeing any benefit from it so I decided not to pay either the "fumidil tax" or the "HBH tax". Make of that what you will.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> A few years back


Jimmy.... can you give us a little more info if you can remember, was there any differents that stood out between the bees or locations (mono crop) as to other keepers that seem to have higher levels, did the inspector give any hints as to his thoughts as to why some were higher than others? I know one fellow that sends bees by you, he gets 768-816 a load of singles in late May early June I always wonder if there was any bees in those boxes, but it makes me wonder if the bees are stress like that if it doesn't carry on into the late fall.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Jimmy.... can you give us a little more info if you can remember, was there any differents that stood out between the bees or locations (mono crop) as to other keepers that seem to have higher levels, did the inspector give any hints as to his thoughts as to why some were higher than others? I know one fellow that sends bees by you, he gets 768-816 a load of singles in late May early June I always wonder if there was any bees in those boxes, but it makes me wonder if the bees are stress like that if it doesn't carry on into the late fall.


Wish I could give you a little more info. Keith. The state routinely inspects a few yards from most every beekeeper in the state. Usually its 4 or 5 yards of mine. Samples are normally taken from 4 to 6 hives per yard and analyzed for nosema and ether rolled for varroa. It seems like in the year I was referring to (I cant remember the specific year) we had mostly positive readings but that the average was well under 5 million. The state inspector, Bob Reiners, just told me that there were lots of really high readings across the state that year and he wasn't sure there were any as low as mine. In 2012 we had 20 nosema samples taken by the state. 14 were negative, the 6 positives averaged averaged 1.6. And again I did no treatments. I don't have any data on any other beekeepers in the state. I am assuming they are taking field bees and sampling in a consistent manner.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Were those samples taken from the entrance or from the brood combs. Those that were negative for nosema. Is bees are collected from the entrance and then another sample taken from the brood combs in the same hive results will vary greatly. From, for example, 1.5M spores per bee and even greater when taken from the entrance to Zero when taken from the brood comb in the same hive.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Wouldn't that suggest that the nosema spores are coming from outside the hive and the bees in the entrance may be picking them up from an activity like washboarding?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No. The bees taken as a sample from the entrance of the hive are foraging bees, going out to fly, not washboarding bees.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Were those samples taken from the entrance or from the brood combs. Those that were negative for nosema. Is bees are collected from the entrance and then another sample taken from the brood combs in the same hive results will vary greatly. From, for example, 1.5M spores per bee and even greater when taken from the entrance to Zero when taken from the brood comb in the same hive.


Well as I said, I can only assume they were taking field bees and sampling in a consistent manner. I wasn't there to observe or participate.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> No. The bees taken as a sample from the entrance of the hive are foraging bees, going out to fly, not washboarding bees.


Either way they are outside bees and likely bringing the spores into the colony from outside. What other possibilities are there for the difference?


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Anyone have any luck with tea tree oil for nosema , not sure if it could interfere with bees gut material or not , how much do you put into a gal of syrup .


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Either way they are outside bees and likely bringing the spores into the colony from outside. What other possibilities are there for the difference?


how about the age of the bees. Older bees tend to have more nosema than brood bees. That's why we take samples from the landing board or the inner cover.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Either way they are outside bees and likely bringing the spores into the colony from outside. What other possibilities are there for the difference?


The age of the bees. Nurse bees are young bees. They are less likely to have nosema spores in their digestive system because they are new. Foraging bees are older bees. It is likely that they picked up nosema spores earlier in their life and the number of spores has grown. That's the difference. It isn't that those bees picked the spores up elsewhere.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

laketrout said:


> Anyone have any luck with tea tree oil for nosema , not sure if it could interfere with bees gut material or not , how much do you put into a gal of syrup .


Read a study that thyme EO reduces nosema just as effective as fumagillan. I would imagine that tea tree would work too. Pretty sure that EOs and fumagillan will interfere with bees gut by reducing LAB.

There is a product called protofil see post #43 and #46 to treat nosema made from herbal plants. My guess it's the thyme that does it.

Another product called symbeeotic reduces EFB, AFB, nosema and other by providing probiotics to improve immunity.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> The age of the bees. Nurse bees are young bees. They are less likely to have nosema spores in their digestive system because they are new. Foraging bees are older bees.


My line of reasoning would be the opposite. The young bee hasn't had a chance to build up resistance to the disease like an older bee would so I would expect higher counts due to age with a younger bee and you are telling me it is the reverse.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Acebird said:


> My line of reasoning would be the opposite. The young bee hasn't had a chance to build up resistance to the disease like an older bee would so I would expect higher counts due to age with a younger bee and you are telling me it is the reverse.


Furthermore, new bees can only ingest food that came out of other bees first (vectors of contamination), whereas foraging bees can pretty much feed themselves.

That being said, I have no idea which bees are more likely to have more nosema in their guts. 



FlowerPlanter said:


> Read a study that thyme EO reduces nosema just as effective as fumagillan. I would imagine that tea tree would work too. Pretty sure that EOs and fumagillan will interfere with bees gut by reducing LAB.
> 
> There is a product called protofil see post #43 and #46 to treat nosema made from herbal plants. My guess it's the thyme that does it.
> 
> Another product called symbeeotic reduces EFB, AFB, nosema and other by providing probiotics to improve immunity.


I saw an article on SymBeeotic today... I would love to see their papers and their methodology. On their youtube video, they say that they mix it with honey and pollen... which is a big no-no, here, as feeding bees with honey is basically against the law due to foulbrood concerns. If it's a probiotic like with kefir or yogourt, though, it would probably be easy to grow a culture ourselves, should it be possible to get our hands on an inoculate. I wouldn't expect it to have miraculous results, but it could certainly be a cheap additive to feed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> My line of reasoning would be the opposite. The young bee hasn't had a chance to build up resistance to the disease like an older bee would so I would expect higher counts due to age with a younger bee and you are telling me it is the reverse.


Yes, I am. We are talking about insects whose whole life span as an adult is six weeks, not mammals whose life span may be counted in years. Adult bees don't build up resistance. I don't know where that idea came from.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Yes, I am. We are talking about insects whose whole life span as an adult is six weeks, not mammals whose life span may be counted in years. Adult bees don't build up resistance. I don't know where that idea came from.


Young bees, however, have been fed by a whole number of other bees from the day they emerged from their eggs, and continue to depend on such foods until the day they can forage for it for themselves. Assuming the immune system doesn't change, shouldn't they be less affected by nosema as soon as they stop depending on vectors of disease (other bees) for their food, their immune system only having to fight off the present spores instead of fighting those on top of constantly ingested spores?

Again, this is just a presumption of mine, for the sake of discussion.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Gonna have to look some of this up, but, nosema exists in the gut of the bee, not in the honey stomach which is where brood food comes from. So, though I will have to look deeper into the mode of infection, I believe that infection doesn't happen at the larval stage.

I'll get back to you after consulting a book or two.

"Newly emerged bees are always free of infection." Gonna have to dig deeper to find how it is transmitted.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Maybe this study will help.

J Invertebr Pathol. 2012 Jan;109(1):148-51. doi: 10.1016/j.jip.2011.09.009. Epub 2011 Oct 5.
Nosema ceranae in age cohorts of the western honey bee (Apis mellifera).
Smart MD, Sheppard WS.
Source

Washington State University, Dept. of Entomology, 166 FSHN Building, Pullman, WA 99164-6382, USA. [email protected]
Abstract

Nosemaceranae intensity (mean spores per bee) and prevalence (proportion of bees infected in a sample) were analyzed in honey bees of known ages. Sealed brood combs from five colonies were removed, emerging bees were marked with paint, released back into their colonies of origin, and collected as recently emerged (0-3 days old), as house bees (8-11 days old), and as foragers (22-25 days old). Fifty bees from each of the five colonies were processed individually at each collection date for the intensity and prevalence of N. ceranae infection. Using PCR and specific primers to differentiate Nosema species, N. ceranae was found to be the only species present during the experiment. At each collection age (recent emergence, house, forager) an additional sample from the inner hive cover (background bees=BG) of each colony was collected to compare the N. ceranae results of this sampling method, commonly used for Nosema spore quantification, to the samples comprised of marked bees of known ages. No recently emerged bees exhibited infection with N. ceranae. One house bee out of the 250 individuals analyzed (prevalence=0.4%) tested positive for N. ceranae, at an infection level of 3.35×10(6) spores. Infection levels were not statistically different between the recently emerged (mean=0 spores/bee) and house bees (mean=1.34×10(4) spores/bee) (P=0.99). Foragers exhibited the highest prevalence (8.3%) and infection intensity (mean=2.38×10(6) spores/bee), with a range of 0-8.72×10(7) spores in individual bees. The average infection level across all foragers was significantly higher than that of recently emerged bees (P=0.01) and house bees (P=0.01). Finally, the prevalence of Nosema in infected bees was found to be positively correlated with the infection intensity in the sample.

Copyright © 2011 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

PMID:
22001631
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

camero7 said:


> Maybe this study will help.


OK so why? Older bees have higher counts then younger bees. Older bees spend time outside the hive younger bees don't. My logic is older bees are bringing spores in from outside the hive. So why treat the hive?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The nosema spore exists somewhere where bees ingest those spores. Those spores get into the bees digestive system where they reproduce. They reproduce by invading the bees cells, not to bge confused w/ cells in honeycomb, and multiplying and continuing to reproduce.

Nurse bees may have nosema spores in them, but the spore count is too low to detect. As the bee ages the number of spores in its midgut multiply. That is why there is a difference in the number of spores found in old bees and young bees. It isn't that the old bees go out into the environment, become infected and therefore the reason they have lots of nosema spores in them.

The spores reproduce in the midgut of the bee and over time older bees will have lots more spores than young bees.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I think Mark is correct here. Seems like I remember reading the incubation period is around 8 days. 
Interesting observation by Flowerplanter that Thymol may be as effective as Fumagillan, that might account for the low Nosema readings in my bees as we have used fall treatments of thymol for quite a number of years now.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

So another way to look at it is making your favorite alcoholic beverage. When your must or wort is first made you pitch in a very small amount of yeast. This yeast due to perfect propogation atmosphere divides and multiples thru natural reproduction of the spores. By the time you are done making your beer or mead you have alot more yeast than when you started.

That said what makes you think the honeybee gut isnt a perfect breeding ground for these spores? Its full of food and is kept around 90 degrees. Seems to me its an obvious breeding ground for spores.

We all have to keep in mind sampling is just that. When we check for Nosema spores its nothing more than a sampling. So the samples looked at in fresh emergence didnt show Nosema spores. Does that mean there is NO Nosema inside those bees? It simply means it wasn't detected in the sample. Now go back to what Mark said about the adult bees life being 6 weeks long. 6 weeks is plenty of time to propogate spores.

Now to answer your question about treating your hive/s. Dont treat them if they show signs of Nosema if you don't want to, but its the number 2 killer of colonies, with our friend Varroa Destructor being number 1! It would be prudent to treat them with something that will help out the situation if you want to keep your colony from perishing.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Dominic said:


> Furthermore, new bees can only ingest food that came out of other bees first (vectors of contamination), whereas foraging bees can pretty much feed themselves.


Do adult bees really feed themselves? Obviously they munch on all the honey they can but what about their protein?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> As the bee ages the number of spores in its midgut multiply.


Why does that happen is some older bees and not all older bees? Resistance. Something in the older bee's immune system goes kafluke and it can no longer fight off the infection.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> It would be prudent to treat them with something that will help out the situation if you want to keep your colony from perishing.


I want the colonies that cannot fight off infection on their own to die so they don't incubate the disease.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Then why take a interest in how the spores propogate within the honeybees and colony?

Should we also act that way as humans and rid ourselves of all the needless medications like antibiotics, flushots, insulin, etc...? That way we too can become stronger genetically speaking.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Why does that happen is some older bees and not all older bees? Resistance. Something in the older bee's immune system goes kafluke and it can no longer fight off the infection.


I don't know? Why?

Why do you ask? What is the answer worth to you? What amount of work are you willing to do to get an answer? I could give you some direction, if you want to investigate and find the answer.

I think you should go to bee school, attend bee meetings, talk to entomologists and bee experts, do the work of becoming a beekeeper, not just a sideline sitter.

Education isn't free. You pay for it one way or another. You seem to want it handed to you and then want to argue w/ what is presented.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Education isn't free. You pay for it one way or another. You seem to want it handed to you and then want to argue w/ what is presented.


I don't consider it arguing. I consider it discussing. I am sorry you feel that way.

"Free" is a term that implies money. If you know where to look, education can be free. And yes a lot of what I know was handed to me. Just like you and all the other older experts are doing right here on beesource. It has worked well for me for my whole life. What I have learned in a class room hasn't amounted to 1% of what I know from being hand fed from folks like yourself.

Why do I ask? Asking questions is a way of spurring discussion. Discussion usually results in a clearer understanding of a topic and often times may lead someone to change what they believe to be true.

Here is something to think about. What do you think the absorption rate is in a lectured class if no one asks a question and there is no discussion afterwards? I am speaking of the whole class not just the person who may ask the question.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

bird--sorry for the wake up call but it really doesn't seem to be working for you anymore.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I don't consider it arguing. I consider it discussing. I am sorry you feel that way.
> 
> "Free" is a term that implies money. If you know where to look, education can be free. And yes a lot of what I know was handed to me. Just like you and all the other older experts are doing right here on beesource. It has worked well for me for my whole life. What I have learned in a class room hasn't amounted to 1% of what I know from being hand fed from folks like yourself.
> 
> ...


You missed my point entirely. It takes work. You have to pay for it one way or another. Either through sitting in a class or working next to someone who knows or digging for the data in a book or over the internet. Then you have to work to understand it. That's what I mean by paying for it.

Education is not free. Yes, it has to be paid for. No, that doesn't mean you paying me. If you pay respect, that doesn't cost you anything monetarely.

As far as discussion in a classroom or lecture hall, you have no idea who you are talking to. That's another story.

Have you learned anything about Nosema, how it effects bees, it etiology? What have you learned? Where does it come from? How does it grow? What damage does it do? Where is the best place in a beehive to detect its presence? I can't tell by your questions that you believe anything you have been told or have learned anything from this Thread. Have you?


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## VolunteerK9 (Aug 19, 2011)

Acebird said:


> What do you think the absorption rate is in a lectured class if no one asks a question and there is no discussion afterwards? I am speaking of the whole class not just the person who may ask the question.


Is the absorption rate better for those sitting in the front of the class better than those sitting in the back? Does the age of the student have any bearing on the absorption rate? Ive sat in classes where people have asked question after question - no thought provoking revelations, just mindless questions seemingly just for the sake of asking. People either get it or they don't. Its up to themselves to study more to improve their understanding.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

90 & 91 post.... Outstanding very well said. 
One ole boy here on this thread is hell bent everytime I talk about sub and what it can do for a hive. They only want the answer, but what they really want is for you to do all the work.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you are interested in knowing more about Keith's comments above on "sub", here is the thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?287650-Products-like-Mann-Lake-Ultra-bee&highlight=recipe
There are 123 posts in that thread!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> If you are interested in knowing more about Keith's comments above on "sub", here is the thread:
> !


LOL... foregot about that one RS, But RS, I was referring to this thread, But since that one got brought back up seems like at the end of that thread everybody agreeing with Keith????? Things that folks say here should not be taken so personal, but rather as an opinion as a piont of view.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Have you learned anything about Nosema, how it effects bees, it etiology? What have you learned? Where does it come from? How does it grow? What damage does it do? Where is the best place in a beehive to detect its presence? I can't tell by your questions that you believe anything you have been told or have learned anything from this Thread. Have you?


Sure I have. What have you learned?

There is a whole lot here.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-nosema-twins-part-1/



> Nosema spores spread by being ingested by foragers at water sources contaminated by bee droppings. Such older bees are short lived anyway, so the occasional infection is no big deal. Infected bees also tend to altruistically prevent spreading the infection by flying away and not returning to the hive. Kralj (2006) refers to this behavior as “suicidal pathogen removal”.


Apparently it comes from excrement. Did you know that? It is more of a problem in colder climates. Did you know that? I suspect it is related to nutrition. That being said I suspect it is more prevalent in people that feed their bees. You can affect the outbreak of the disease by using essential oils but you have no idea what the side affects are when you don't get the right dosage. Or any other negatives that are common with every treatment.

Don't you think it is odd that we haven't heard from Michael Bush on the subject of nosema? Maybe it isn't odd. Maybe he hasn't sat in enough lectures to be able to speak on the subject.

Mark, I am not sure you know what I have learned.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> everytime I talk about sub

The word "everytime" suggests that the issue has come up in more than one thread. I linked to the thread I thought you were referring to, but I agree that there are also other threads with similar disagreement.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Don't you think it is odd that we haven't heard from Michael Bush on the subject of nosema?


Remember, Ace, "Reading is FUNdamental!" :lpf: :lookout: :lpf:

See Michael Bush's comment in post #20 of this thread.

:gh:


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > everytime I talk about sub
> 
> The word "everytime" suggests that the issue has come up in more than one thread.




Boy isn't that the truth, the problem RS, is that I have competitors that listen to every word I say about sub on beesource. For instance, the thread that you linked to ultra bee, I mentioned that ultra bee chart amino acid was incomplete that "Trypthan" WAS NOT LISTED. Now the makers of Ultra Bee are running around the state bee conventions saying we are NOW adding Trypthan. I could go all out and really say what's lacking but me thinks not.


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## VolunteerK9 (Aug 19, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Apparently it comes from excrement.


As someone who practices 'non intervention beekeeping' and would rather them just die than treat, why are you even interested in how its transmitted, prevented, or cured?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

bird, your 'conversation/discussion' is verging on the irrational, again.
Do you go back read your own posts? (may take awhile, I know)


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

VolunteerK9 said:


> As someone who practices 'non intervention beekeeping' and would rather them just die than treat, why are you even interested in how its transmitted, prevented, or cured?


Because there are a lot of people on this forum that ram it down a newbies throat that you have to constantly dump chemicals or potions into the hive for any kind of problem. These same people do not discuss the side effects of such behavior and belittle those who feel the practice is wrong. K9, these are the people that need to learn instead of burying their head in the sand and just doing what everyone else does. Are you one of them?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Who ever rammed anything down your throat? Advice is given, Take it or leave it. Ain't nobody forcing you to swallow. From what I have seen of your replies, you have been throwing up quite a lot of what is freely offered.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Because there are a lot of people on this forum that ram it down a newbies throat that you have to constantly dump chemicals or potions into the hive for any kind of problem. These same people do not discuss the side effects of such behavior and belittle those who feel the practice is wrong. K9, these are the people that need to learn instead of burying their head in the sand and just doing what everyone else does. Are you one of them?


I'm not. I came on here relating my Nosema test results that didn't include any antibiotic treatments and no one has belittled me. The problem was when you refused to accept commonly accepted testing methodology and then veered into your own theories. Theorize if you wish but don't be offended when you are challenged.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> and _*belittle *_those who feel the practice is wrong. 

You mean like this? :scratch:



Acebird said:


> You should add a protein paddy and get those hive beetles really tanked up. Maybe a cup and a half of more ineffective chemicals to offset what ever else is thriving.


That was part of Ace's response to a *new member* wondering how to get their hives through the winter.

:gh:


(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)


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## VolunteerK9 (Aug 19, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Because there are a lot of people on this forum that ram it down a newbies throat that you have to constantly dump chemicals or potions into the hive for any kind of problem.


I would say its exactly the opposite. To me there are more people that are quite solidified in their beliefs that if they ignore a problem such as nosema, mites, etc, they will just magically go away. Newbies come here, read some of the posts made by non-treaters, and believe that they can replicate with 100% success what others have done (or claim they have done) with non-treatment. Ive not been a keep very long (5 years now i think) but I dont know of anyone that constantly dumps chemicals in their hives to sustain them. As far as me personally, I treated with Apivar this year after more than half of my hives were lost to mites last year. Even though its straying off topic as far as nosema is concerned, I dont understand why a person chooses to keep something, they then decide not to care for it. I couldnt imagine letting anything under my care left to die through starvation or disease, simply because my beliefs didnt allow me to treat them.

People are quick to throw stones at commercials for their usage of chemical treatments, but I think there is something to be said at maintaining 500-1000 hives successfully year after year while some TF hobbyists have trouble with just a few. But I digress....


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

VolunteerK9 said:


> People are quick to throw stones at commercials for their usage of chemical treatments, but I think there is something to be said at maintaining 500-1000 hives successfully year after year while some TF hobbyists have trouble with just a few. But I digress....


Very well said, I don't think any of the folks I know want to do what they do to keep mites in check it's just that we have not come up with a better method.


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## red (Jan 15, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Who ever rammed anything down your throat? Advice is given, Take it or leave it. Ain't nobody forcing you to swallow. From what I have seen of your replies, you have been throwing up quite a lot of what is freely offered.


This is priceless


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

dang I. Have to second marks post.




sqkcrk said:


> Who ever rammed anything down your throat? Advice is given, Take it or leave it. Ain't nobody forcing you to swallow. From what I have seen of your replies, you have been throwing up quite a lot of what is freely offered.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> It is more of a problem in colder climates. Did you know that?


My studies and anecdotal observations are that it might be worse in warmer climates. Freezing kills nosema ceranae.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> I'm not. I came on here relating my Nosema test results that didn't include any antibiotic treatments and no one has belittled me. The problem was when you refused to accept commonly accepted testing methodology and then veered into your own theories. Theorize if you wish but don't be offended when you are challenged.


I didn't say you were Jim but there are plenty of others. As I understand it nosema is a fungus so antibiotics wouldn't work anyway. I think it would be better treated the other way, probiotics. Bacteria keeps the nosema in check.
It is not that I refuse to accept the testing methodology, I refuse to accept the treating methodology as the only solution. I think prevention is the key. So when I am asked, "Why do I care?" Learning what nosema is and how the colony gets infected should be the answer to preventing it. Not testing for it and then using posions to get rid of it. Why did the colony get it in the first place? And why did the other colony right next to it not get it? That is my focus. I do want my ideas challenged. That is what discussion is.

There is a huge difference between commercial beekeeping and a hobbyist. I do not expect any commercial operation to do what I do. But there is a very strong belief between commercial operators that hobbyist must only do what they do. Personal attacks, being made fun of, because you disagree with what is being said is not discussion. However, it does silence the forum from those that think the same because they don't want the same treatment.

Jim I think you are one exception. You are not the norm when it comes to commercial operations.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

camero7 said:


> Freezing kills nosema ceranae.


How does it freeze in the bees gut if the bee is still alive?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Personal attacks, being made fun of, because you disagree with what is being said is not discussion. However, it does silence the forum from those that think the same because they don't want the same treatment.


Huh.

Ace's comment below was directed to a large beekeeper who had simply explained his beekeeping management philosophy. _Practice what you preach .... _ 




Acebird said:


> Well Jim you are talking about scale. If your father handed you a thriving business you can just keep the flywheel rolling pretty easy. If you had to start from scratch then you pretty much started as chief cook and bottle washer with a broom handle stuck up your butt to sweep the floors. Not to belittle your ability but money breads money. It is a lot harder when you come from the geto.


:ws:


:gh:



(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Alright, I move up to a bottle washer, hey Ace, what does that pay an hour?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Huh.
> 
> Ace's comment below was directed to a large beekeeper who had simply explained his beekeeping management philosophy. _Practice what you preach .... _
> 
> ...


Yes, I remember that well, I think my answer was probably quotable as well but the bottom line is respect is something that can only be earned, I started with a broom in my hand as well and bees are livestock, neglect them for one year and the bees and the legacy are gone forever. It wasn't Ace's finest hour that's for sure, but I have moved on and I think Ace has been a better poster since then as well. I'm giving him some slack on this one as well. The fact is there is a lot about nosema and it's apparent fickleness that we don't understand. I do generally follow a "less may be better approach" but make no mistake, if I knew that nosema was a serious threat to my bees I would be very proactive.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> How does it freeze in the bees gut if the bee is still alive?


camero7 is referring to nosema ceranae survival on empty comb storage. It seems as it does not tolerate cold as well as nosema apis does.

Ace, I enjoy your postings. I like the feed back you provide that seems to be gathered from the far end of the room. Sometimes that brings out a great conversation when like minded people are conversing. Please dont scold professional beekeepers for hashing out management strategies. We are all trying to figure this "beekeeping" thing out. 
If you cant keep up to the big fish, then you better lay back...but Id rather you try to keep up


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> Please dont scold professional beekeepers for hashing out management strategies.


I try not to do that. And yeah, sometimes I fail.

I don't believe the two groups will ever be in sync on management strategies because their goals are completely different. But that doesn't mean we can't learn from each other.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> camero7 is referring to _nosema ceranae_ survival on empty comb storage. It seems as it does not tolerate cold as well as nosema apis does.

The link is to a page by noted bee researcher Eric Mussen on nosema, including both _Nosema ceranae_ and _Nosema apis:_
http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/files/147621.pdf

Scroll to the end of the document to see comments on _Nosema ceranae_ lack of survival in a cold environment.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

One of the arguments up here to allow package bees across the boarder from the US is so that we can store all our brood comb in cold storage to help kill off nosema spores and viruses. Take advantage of our terribly cold winters. The idea is that treatments would almost be eliminated, just an oxalic acid treatment and a fumigillin drench while the packages were still in the cages, then nothing in the hive for the rest of the season.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

From personal experience, I do not believe for a moment that cold has any effect on Nosema spore. We did a little multi-variable test a few years back, by putting new packages in deadouts (whuch had frozen)from the previous year, comb that had not been out for 2 years and stored in the shop(and not frozen), and brand new equipment. The dead outs failed as miserably as they had the previous year, the stored comb failed, but not as bad, and the new equipment made over 150 lbs a hive. The next year we sterilized all of the old equipment and it performed like the new equipment when new clean bees where added..

The moral? You need healthy bees in clean equipment. If you come up short on either score, you will have sick bees, and they will die.

The expense of the sterilization equipment is what led to my prediction(and moniker) that in 20-30 years, only commercial beekeepers will be treatment free, because once your equipment is contaminated, you will not be able to keep your bees alive with out intervening.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What kind of sterilization equipment are you refering to? The only such equipment I am familiar with is ETO or Irradiation.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Roland said:


> The expense of the sterilization equipment is what led
> 
> Crazy Roland


Is that one of your trade secrets Roland? Care to elaborate ?

Let me guess, heat, acitric acid, and,... 
a chamber for treatment


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Yes please do elobarate Roland. I have heard beekeepers having excellent success for just such issues of contaminated comb using Glacial Acetic Acid. I will be treating with GAA tonight for all my fall/summer deadouts and let them set on it all winter.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How do you do that BMAC?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> From personal experience, I do not believe for a moment that cold has any effect on Nosema spore.


Freezing temps would kill the organism but not the spores. Super cold might like liquid nitrogen.

Roland, I don't understand the prediction. Newbies start with new equipment and new bees. Why would that change? I can see hobbyist dropping out of the hobby but I suspect there will always be new hobbyist.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

This will be the first time I will be doing it. However because I am super anal about safety I will buy a respirator that will handle acids tonight on way home at graingers to compliment my chemical gloves and goggles.

I have been researching and the suggestions I have seen is soaking a pad with 100 - 150 ml and placing on top bars of each box being treated. taping up all cracks and putting lid on it for 2 weeks. Then allow to air out.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-acetic-acid.htm


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Micro-flora builder in it which competes with nosema spores.



From what I understand lactic acid bacteria keeps pollen and honey perfectly preserved but also promotes the growth of healthy flora throughout the intestine. If i remember from microbio correctly, there are 13 lactic acid bacteria(Lactobacillales)that are very beneficial.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Who in this thread actually has taken a microbiology class before? Its really hard to talk about Nosema when you dont know anything about microbes.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

RAK said:


> microbiology class before?


The more I learn, the more I feel like a row boat in the middle of the ocean with no paddle, so much is unknown, so many variables it makes your head spin, one wrong turn and the apple chart is out of balance.
Me thinks I'll have seconds on humble pie.


Sure Mate, nothing to it, just turn the mixer on make a few doug balls.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

RAK said:


> Who in this thread actually has taken a microbiology class before? Its really hard to talk about Nosema when you dont know anything about microbes.


We don't need the class. We just need someone who is all about microbiology to spill his/her guts and tell us what they know.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

RAK said:


> Who in this thread actually has taken a microbiology class before? Its really hard to talk about Nosema when you dont know anything about microbes.


29 years ago. I've probably forgotten every bit of it though. You make a good point. Some people want something for nothing.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Sure Mate, nothing to it, just turn the mixer on make a few doug balls.


 Doug might not like that.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Doug might not like that.


That's what happens when your in the row boat to long Dough.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

w/ all yer dough can't you afford a motor boat? heh,heh


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Some people want something for nothing.


Sounds like Ace.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Keith Jarrett said:


> The more I learn, the more I feel like a row boat in the middle of the ocean with no paddle, so much is unknown, so many variables it makes your head spin, one wrong turn and the apple chart is out of balance.


Seems like your head is spinning in the right direction. How many hives do you lose to nosema? Oh that's right you don't...


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

No offense to anyone...


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Who in this thread actually has taken a microbiology class before?

Guilty as charged.

What do I use to sterilize? Depends on what I need to kill. Choose, and choose wisely. Yes, a large, sealed chamber is used. For complete details, send 64,000 dollars in small bills to.....

Ace, drones can vector varoa, which can vector who knows what else. Unless you are on an island, and never buy bees, you will get something bad sooner or later. 

Crazy Roland


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

BMAC said:


> I have heard beekeepers having excellent success for just such issues of contaminated comb using Glacial Acetic Acid. I will be treating with GAA tonight for all my fall/summer deadouts and let them set on it all winter.


did you find a local supplier? I have been trying to get some but can't find a local supplier and the shipping costs were too much for me.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Yes and No. I called around the Albany area to chemical companies and all were more than happy to help me. It turned out to be more cost effective to order it from Wintersun Chemicals and have shipped from Ca to NY than to buy it local thru the Chem companies here. With that said PM me if you are interested in going in on some with me because I did not order enough and have to order more. We can split the cost of shipping saving us both money.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

RAK said:


> No offense to anyone...


I dont think many took offense. It is what it is.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BMAC said:


> I dont think many took offense. It is what it is.


I agree, RAK has some of the best post when it comes to subjects like this, I always like to read his point of veiw.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Some people want something for nothing.

Hmmm, what Ace _says _he wants is this ....



Acebird said:


> I do want my ideas challenged.


I hope to continue to be able to assist in that direction. :lookout:


:gh:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I hope to continue to be able to assist in that direction. :lookout:
> 
> 
> :gh:


There is a far cry difference between challenging and harrasment, disrupting threads and personal attacks. I am not sure you will ever learn the difference.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> There is a far cry difference between challenging and harrasment, disrupting threads and personal attacks.


I agree.

For some excellent examples of Ace's hard work on resolving this _challenging _issue, see posts #104 and #112 of this thread.

:ws:

:gh:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I agree.
> 
> For some fine examples of Ace's hard work on resolving this _challenging _issue, see posts #104 and #112 of this thread.
> 
> ...


Oh, let's not. Please? 

Any new insightful info, experience, or comments about Nosema out there? Or have we exhausted this conversation.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Yes, Allen Dick posted this study on his forum. It's well worth the read.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0070182#authcontrib

Here is part of the discussion but the whole paper is important IMO.

Our results combined with several recent studies of specific pesticides’ effects on Nosema infection dynamics [13]–[15] indicate that a detrimental interaction occurs when honey bees are exposed to both pesticides and Nosema. Specific results vary, and may depend on the pesticide or dose used. For example, bees exposed to imidacloprid and Nosema can have lower spore counts than bees only infected with the pathogen but also exhibit hindered immune functioning [13]. Our study improves on previous methodologies by feeding pollen with real-world pesticide blends and levels that truly represents the types of exposure expected with pollination of agricultural crops. The significant increase in Nosema infection following exposure to the fungicides in pollen we found therefore indicates a pressing need for further research on lethal and sub-lethal effects of fungicides on bees. Given the diverse routes of exposure to pesticides we show, and increasing evidence that pesticide blends harm bees [16], , there is a pressing need for further research on the mechanisms underlying pesticide-pesticide and pesticide-disease synergistic effects on honey bee health.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Oh, let's not. Please?


One post later ... true to form eh Mark. I should probably add taking words out of context changing the original content of the quoted posts.

Sidetrack is that really your name? You sure live up to it. What relationship are you to Barry? No one else gets away with your shenanigans.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

camero7 said:


> there is a pressing need for further research on the mechanisms underlying pesticide-pesticide and pesticide-disease synergistic effects on honey bee health.


How could the researchers possible cover the combinations and permutations that could happen in the real world? It would be hard enough just to limit it to two groups bees exposed to pesticides and bees not exposed to pesticides.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>significant increase in Nosema infection following exposure to the fungicides in pollen we found therefore indicates a pressing need for further research on lethal and sub-lethal effects of fungicides on bees. <<

This year our crops started out terribly, and because of such very little crop protection dollars were spent on it. No fungicide was used on most of the canola in our area, weather improved the crop came back. This good long flowering period gave me lots of flowers to forage on all summer, and my bees never looked so consistently awesome this fall, best I have ever seen them. 
So many factors involved here, but is one of those factors no exposure to fungicide? Healthy guts? Makes me think...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> What relationship are you to Barry?


I can't let this _paranoid fantasy_ of Ace's pass without a least an _animated _smiley! :lpf:

:ws:

Note that all "quotes" are always readily available in their original thread with full context simply by clicking the blue arrow in the quote box, and I frequently append this tip to the end of such posts with quotes.

For the record, Ace has also complained about my use of _animated _icons in my posts! :lookout:I'd provide a link to that thread, but I'm sure Ace will object to that also. PM me if you want a link to the thread.

:gh:


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> So many factors involved here, but is one of those factors no exposure to fungicide? Healthy guts?


i have believed for quite a while that the synergistic interaction between pesticides and fungicides are the major problem when there are reports of problems with bees. I think they make the virus vectored by varroa much more deadly.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Could someone elaborate more on Thymol , could it be the answer for both nosema and varroa , how toxic is it , could it get in the comb and eventually in the honey .


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

laketrout said:


> Could someone elaborate more on Thymol , could it be the answer for both nosema and varroa , how toxic is it , could it get in the comb and eventually in the honey .


The answer? Its a very effective miticide for both varroa and trachael mites when properly applied in the right conditions. It can also cause queen "shutdown" and an occasional queen loss if used when high temps exceed 90 degrees. It should not be applied with a honey crop on as the odor may well transfer into the honey, though I have heard of some reporting no problems when used a box below any extracting supers. It may well have some effect at reducing nosema infections but I am not sure anyone has definitively proven that.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

jim lyon said:


> The answer? Its a very effective miticide for both varroa and trachael mites when properly applied in the right conditions. It can also cause queen "shutdown" and an occasional queen loss if used when high temps exceed 90 degrees. It should not be applied with a honey crop on as the odor may well transfer into the honey, though I have heard of some reporting no problems when used a box below any extracting supers. It may well have some effect at reducing nosema infections but I am not sure anyone has definitively proven that.


Jim lyon I use Thymol as an Nosema treatment for many years. You can see on the attached pages, the result is much better as any antibiotic like Fumidil-B or Fumigillian. Whenever I feed my bees, I have Thymol in the syrup. No problem with possible leftovers in honey. If there is some in honey, the amount is far below the taste mark. Thymol is also an natural ingredient of honey, here is also pure thymian honey available. http://www.kretanatura.de/tyminan-honig/thymian-honig-1.php
This summer I got a new thymol powder from our distributor here, it's a bee tea and works great, no mixing with alcohol or anything and ready to use. It comes from a US company Heilyser, the same where I have my vaporizer from. I saved one litre syrup with this powder in for 3 month in a jar and there was no mould in the syrup and no fermenting. The bee take it like fresh syrup. 
http://docsdrive.com/pdfs/ansinet/pjbs/2005/1142-1145.pdf
http://www.apidologie.org/index.php...es/apido/full_html/2010/02/m09043/m09043.html


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> It comes from a US company Heilyser,

Hmmm. _Heilyser _is in North America, but it is in the _northern _part, i.e. _Canada_. :lookout:

http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/index.html


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Here is a report on thymol that are English friends agreed to let me post in hopes it could shed some light on a possible treatment and help other beekeepers , seems like this could help with both varroa and nosema and also a easy syrup treatment . 
Posted by Hivemaker from www.beekeepingforum.co.uk ( if I understood correctly - 500 hives were treated )
Okay,will start by saying last spring i tested every colony for nosema, had 20+ colonys with heavy nosema infection,started to treat in the very mild weather in feb, they all responded really well to treatment,some were later given complete comb changes,but not all,later in spring a few more colonys also got nosema that previously tested clear,obviously drinking from the same contaminated water supply that had been crapped over by some of the infected colonys,so every hive in the affected apairys were treated.

Last autumn every full size colony and nuc was fed down with thymolated syrup,this spring have yet to find any signs of nosema in any colony,even weaker one's,and even in the one's that previously had very heavy nosema and had no comb changes,these colonys are in fact boiling over with bee's at the moment and many have had second brood chambers added,some were over wintered on double broods and are incredibly strong,some will be having two nuc's taken from each one very soon. Also as a slight side note i have detected no varroa mites in the vast majority of hives,very very few in some,and no oxalic used at all,reminds me of pre 2002 when i always fed thymolated syrup.

Poly Hive..........
The original recipe is simply 30g of thymol crystals dissolved in 150 of surgical spirit or isopropyl alcohol.........will keep indefinately and you add up to five ml of this per gallon of syrup feed,or if to simply stop fermentation 5ml per 3 gallons.
Problem with the above mixture is the oil tends to float on top of the syrup,obviously some of it is in the entire mix,but not in an equal suspension,so therefore not being stored in the combs as i would like it,and i believe is more effective if emulsified.

If you wish to carry out your own test add 10ml to a bucket containing 2 gallons of syrup,allow to settle,then with a thin tube syphon some surup from the bottom of the bucket into a clean cup,then take some syrup from the top of the bucket into another cup....then smell the difference....taste it..see which one gets you spitting for a few minutes.

Emulsified thymol pre mix.

30g thymol crystals placed in honey jar,add 5ml of isopropyl alcohol to the crystals,place jar into a water bath of boiling water to speed up the dissolving process.
In another jar pour in 140 ml of boiling water and add 1 teaspoon of lecithin granules, stir well,and place this jar into a water bath of boiling water,stirring often for abot ten minutes or so until most of the lecithin granules have dissolved,you can then strain this mixture through a teastrainer or similar to remove any granules that have not dissolved fully,then simply add the dissolved thymol to this mix,and shake well,will look just like a jar of milk.
To use add 5ml to each gallon of syrup and stir well,syrup will go milky,unlike when using the old original mix.
If the mixture forms any crystals at a later date,tip into old small pan and reheat,do this outdoors.
There are also other feed supplements availible such as vita feed,and nosevit ect,i have never tried these so cannot make any comment on them,but i will sure be sticking to what i know works well.

Ps in the past i have on occasion added two teaspoons of the old original mix 10ml per gallon with no ill effects on the bee's at all,but 5ml is plenty.
__________________


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Axtmann said:


> Jim lyon I use Thymol as an Nosema treatment for many years. You can see on the attached pages, the result is much better as any antibiotic like Fumidil-B or Fumigillian. Whenever I feed my bees, I have Thymol in the syrup. No problem with possible leftovers in honey. If there is some in honey, the amount is far below the taste mark. Thymol is also an natural ingredient of honey, here is also pure thymian honey available. http://www.kretanatura.de/tyminan-honig/thymian-honig-1.php
> This summer I got a new thymol powder from our distributor here, it's a bee tea and works great, no mixing with alcohol or anything and ready to use. It comes from a US company Heilyser, the same where I have my vaporizer from. I saved one litre syrup with this powder in for 3 month in a jar and there was no mould in the syrup and no fermenting. The bee take it like fresh syrup.
> http://docsdrive.com/pdfs/ansinet/pjbs/2005/1142-1145.pdf
> http://www.apidologie.org/index.php...es/apido/full_html/2010/02/m09043/m09043.html


Thanks for the first hand account Axtmann. I got the sample pack of "bee tea" from Heilyser as well and am planning on testing it as it sounds like a good fall/winter feeding supplement though I will still be pretty cautious about using thymol in the month or so preceding a major surplus honey flow.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> I got the sample pack of "bee tea" from Heilyser as well and am planning on testing it as it sounds like a good fall/winter feeding supplement


Jim, a report on this will be much appreciated.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks for the studies Axtmann, confirms to me that thyme works better. I have been using thyme EO in syrup for mites for a few years, not sure if it is working on mites or if my feral bees are resistant. 

What concerns me is that the thyme EO reducing the LABs in the bees gut making them more susceptible to EFB (which I had a bad outbreak in the spring). They have bad outbreaks in Europe. I wonder if they are related to using thyme? I hear they use thyme allot over there.

I am currently researching probiotics (if anyone know any good studies i would like to see them), I have read a few studies where live stock LABs were given to bees showed good results increasing bees weight, longevity, brood and immunity. Another study increase immunity against EFB and AFB. 

When bees make bee bread they add honey with LABs to pollen, it can last years without losing it's nutritional value because of the LABs. Soy yogurt has some of the same LABs that were in the studies. My next pollen patties will have some soy yogurt in them to see how they do. It appears that yogurt is very easy to make, might be possible to take honey (that will contain the bee LABs) and add it to soy and water and culture the LABs. Add it to patties and have homemade bee bread. Any thoughts?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Here are Kevin Jester's thoughts on beebread and trying to replicate it. Don't know if he's making it this year - tried to get some last year and he wasn't making it.

http://www.jesterbee.com/Beebread.html


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

camero7 said:


> Here are Kevin Jester's thoughts on beebread and trying to replicate it. Don't know if he's making it this year - tried to get some last year and he wasn't making it.
> 
> http://www.jesterbee.com/Beebread.html


I've found articles talking about the use of probiotics, but just useless vulgarisations. Does anyone know what strands are used? Are they the same species used for human consumption probiotic food? Lactic acid bacteria are not all that hard to come by, but I'm thinking that those who boost human digestive systems are not necessarily the same boosting the bees'.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

There are probiotics available for horses such as fastrack.

There is also commercially available pollen sub that has microflora already in it. No need to test yogurts and milks when it's been figured out.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Which ones contain micro flora and what types are needed with what ingredients?
Was your first sentence a hint?

I'm sure Keith will jump in and give his recipe but I'm not sure I can buy those ingredients local.
opcorn:


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Mbeck said:


> Was your first sentence a hint?
> opcorn:



No, Its an idea.


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## mountainbeek (Oct 5, 2013)

In her book, Managing Alternative Pollinators, Marla Spivak writes, "_Even if we did not grow such expansive acreages of fruits and vegetables that require bee pollination, another pressing question must be addressed: Are there sufficient wildflowers in our environment for bees to feed on? As we cover native wildflowers and weedy fields with lawns in the process of urban sprawl, and as we spray our highways and roadsides with herbicides to kill weeds, we diminish bee pasture.
Bees thrive on flowers that we consider unkept and weedy. Just like humans, bees absolutely require
a variety of amino acids from protein, which they obtain from a wide variety of flowers to maintain a balanced and healthy diet. A half-million acres (~200,000 hectares) of almond blossoms sounds like
a lot of pollen and protein. But for bees, it is like eating nothing but chicken every day for a month_". 



Dominic said:


> I've found articles talking about the use of probiotics, but just useless vulgarisations. Does anyone know what strands are used? Are they the same species used for human consumption probiotic food? Lactic acid bacteria are not all that hard to come by, but I'm thinking that those who boost human digestive systems are not necessarily the same boosting the bees'.


_Lactobacillus kunkeei, Lactobacillus manihotivorans, Lactobacillus composti, Lactobacillus acidipiscis, Lactobacillus lindneri, Lactobacillus concavus, Lactobacillus reuteri, Lactobacillus vaginalis, Lactococcus lactis, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium asteroides, Bifidobacterium coryneforme, and Bifidobacterium indicum
_
These were in the paper Michael Bush linked in post #20 




FlowerPlanter said:


> Plant Supplements (Nettle, Protofil Onion Garlic,Thyme, Echinacea)added polyphenols, flavonoids, Antioxidant increase brood.
> 
> Protofil is a product made with (Taraxacum officinalis – dandelion; Thymus vulgaris – savory; Achillea millefolium – chamomile; Ocimumbasilicum – basil and others) for nosema treatment
> 
> http://www.usab-tm.ro/fileadmin/fzb...HEMISTRY,BIOPHYSICS,MATHEMATICS/Marghitas.pdf


Also there is the beet extract (see the additional topic called cane sugar vs beet sugar topic ) and bark extract Vita Feed Gold and Nozevit .

Even if we don't provide these supplemental feedings to the bees, how much harm can we inflict if we add these to our gardens and landscapes?


As commercial beekeepers and hobbyists, we must ask these important questions. There are current solutions such as the breeding of Nosema resistant colonies in Denmark and wildlife refuges if you are fortunate to live close to them.


Roland said:


> From personal experience, I do not believe for a moment that cold has any effect on Nosema spore. We did a little multi-variable test a few years back, by putting new packages in deadouts (whuch had frozen)from the previous year, comb that had not been out for 2 years and stored in the shop(and not frozen), and brand new equipment. The dead outs failed as miserably as they had the previous year, the stored comb failed, but not as bad, and the new equipment made over 150 lbs a hive. The next year we sterilized all of the old equipment and it performed like the new equipment when new clean bees where added..
> 
> The moral? You need healthy bees in clean equipment. If you come up short on either score, you will have sick bees, and they will die.
> 
> ...


If we as beekeepers are to continue to the good fight, we have to start looking at hive design with nosema apis and nosema cerranae in mind. For starters, here is a hive design that incorporates wood sealant which people could design their own wax or propolis recipe to prevent nosema a. from burying itself in porous wood. http://www.google.com/patents/US20080026674


From Acebird’s post #95 I learned that nosema can be spread through defecation contamination in a water source. Which leads me to ask if it has been known that microsporidians like _Nosema cerranae_ and _Cucumispora dikerogammari_ cross-infect other hosts like the European honey bee and the killer shrimp, than is it possible that _Nosema apis_ originates or somehow cross-infects bees when they drink water that contains larvae infected with a nosema species?

I ask this because on September 20, 1920, Illinois professor, Richard R. Kudo found some 660 bees in Spring Valley, NY. Out of the 660 bees, 25 were infected with _Nosema a_. He said, the structure of the spore of _Nosema a_, "is similar to that of the microsporidian _Thelohania magna_”, microsporidian he found in the larvae of the _Culex pipiens_, the common house mosquito and _Culex territans_ ( Likely found throughout Alberta, less commonly on the prairies. Found across North America).


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Mbeck said:


> I'm sure Keith will jump in and give his recipe but I'm not sure I can buy those ingredients local.


Mbeck, you can't buy them, you have to grow them like we do.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Up in the mountains where nobody goes except DEA?


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## beeshield (Aug 8, 2013)

We are working on lab trials, we have many field trials and also we have a possible natural system to combat nosema as well as it is a microsporidian, or an ancient form of fungus and we have natural methods to destroy such fungus and showing you lab results with such data may compromise our formula, but I will check to make sure, but knowing beekeepers you guys will built a make shift incubator and order the proper strains yourself and grow them, but then again its not that easy, so I'm guessing the BEESHIELD pile is the pile of greatness then


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