# 20 Year Old Hive Dilemma



## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Sounds interesting. I hope you can post some pics, or even a vid of the process.

There will be honey spilt. Even if the frames are intact and solid, after 20 years they will be all built up with comb and stuck together so you will have to basically cut them apart. 

As far as robbing, do you know of other hives nearby? Make small, narrow entrances to your two new hives. Depending on how rotten the hive and frames are, maybe burn or bury all the busted up wood and frames.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

The hive stood there for 20 years.
Why shouldn't it stand for another 1-2 months?
Of course, it will.
Surely it will stand another year, if left alone.

What is the rush to bust them now?

Time your cut-out so that there is no severe dearth around you - then go for it.


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## Honeyeater (Jun 21, 2020)

Hi there, you may find this video from my favourite beekeeper on youtube interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFKWKBTYmdw

He also had to relocate a hive untouched for 20 years.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

In Mark's video, just about everything that could go wrong did, and yet he still managed to rehive them.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

well if the hive is rotten that is a good thing IMO
I would either with a small skill saw or a chain saw cut off one of the long sides.
Prying the frames out side ways is the only way you will get "most" of the frames out.
ols well propolized frames if lifted will at time just have the top bar pull off.
Likely the frames are ok, they would have been propolized.

I would on first pass just move the frames into a new set of boxes, do have 2 sets in case your find more than one queen or cells.

have 3 small pails one for honey cuttings , one for scrap, one for brood cuttings. the honey you can strain out, if the comb is wonky and you have several pieces then rubber band them into frames. hopefully most of the frames are intact. the bottom box may have the frame bottoms rotted off the rest could be in useable shape. 
An option could be to bondo it up and get it to spring di the chop up then, I would be doing it now I think the waiting would be difficult.

if the hive is too bad shape, you may end up rubber banding the 5 best brood combs into frames and shaking the rest off "shook swarm" having some comb for the project is a good thing.

GG

In the spring add new foundation frames on the top and let them move up. hopefully you can by the end of the year, have them in completely new equipment.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Maybe a hybrid approach? I would wait for the fall flow before tearing into it but maybe in the meantime you can draw them up into a new box with a feeder on top. If possible, move a frame up. Ideally brood, but I think any frame would help lure them. With any luck, ok lots of luck, they will draw some out and the queen will start laying. If that happens, I would take the chance of trying to get an excluder below the new box. You have time, so worth a shot. J


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I agree that putting new boxes with frames on top of the existing hive is a good approach if time is not of the essence. Let the bees do all the work over the next few months or over winter, then take the hive off the top and salvage what you can from the now empty frames below.


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## Lowcountry Beekeeper (Jul 19, 2020)

Thanks so much everyone for the replies. I appreciate all the great suggestions. 
I could wait until there is no dearth just to be safe because there are other
colonies out there not far away from the location, both feral and hives. 
Someone also mentioned putting a box on top to possibly draw them up. That
also sounds interesting and a lot safer during a dearth. Whenever I get it straight
I will try to get some pics to post. Thanks again guys for the help! This forum seems 
like a very nice group of people.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

JWPalmer said:


> I agree that putting new boxes with frames on top of the existing hive is a good approach if time is not of the essence. Let the bees do all the work over the next few months or over winter, then take the hive off the top and salvage what you can from the now empty frames below.


Agree. Digging into that old box with falling apart frames is a PIA. You could put a frame of brood in the new box to encourage the bees to move up.


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## Lowcountry Beekeeper (Jul 19, 2020)

Absolutely! A new box on top is a lot less hassle, safer as far as robbing goes, and a frame of 
brood would definitely lend some encouragement. Thanks for the tip!


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Alternative idea besides waiting: A light weight screened enclosure. Hoops and a mesh work well or quick wood frame. I would think the bee's survival genetics are certainly important.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Great post, Lowcountry. Sounds like some good genetics to have around.

In my very humble opinion you have gotten some good advice on here- the 'less is more' approach of adding a box on top sounds like the least risky approach to me. If worse came to worst, you could leave the whole set-up in place this Fall, providing supplemental feeding as necessary and then take the upper box or boxes away early next Spring before they commenced brood rearing in the existing hive body on the bottom.

I will be eager to read how it turns out for you.

Russ


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## Lowcountry Beekeeper (Jul 19, 2020)

I have definitely received some great advice from everybody. The box on top seems like a lot
safer approach. The genetics those bees are producing are some I want to keep around. I will
keep in touch here whenever I start the process. Hopefully can get some pics. Someone
mentioned a screen enclosure while doing hive work during a dearth and I think thats a great idea
too for keeping robbers at bay.


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

Good video. If there was more drawn comb moved to the new hive it would give the bees "a leg up."


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## Lowcountry Beekeeper (Jul 19, 2020)

Here's some pics of the 20 year old hive. About to place a swarm trap outside of it and try to catch the primary swarm before I open it up and do a full cutout


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## Lowcountry Beekeeper (Jul 19, 2020)

They are coming in and out of the back of th







e hive


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

interesting project
do post pics of the inside when you open it.
it may be better in the inside, than you think.

GG


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Ripe for AFB!


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> Ripe for AFB!


Why is that Jack? J


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Highly unlikely you will catch a swarm from it by placing a swarm trap next to it. If it's warm enough there at night,50's, I would open it up and transfer whatever you can, however you can do it , into a new box. Suit up and don't over think it. You will be successful. Just keep the brood together in the middle. J


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

About 15 yrs ago I moved 2 hives to a friends property.His grandfather had kept bees years before and the bees had died but when we walked down the hill to the old apiary we discovered a large swarm had moved in to one of the collapsed colonies.
Being more naive back then and thinking I had found some feral bees,I cut out some new comb with brood and nurse bees,grabbed the queen and made a nuc with some frames with drawn comb.Like a fool,I moved this nuc up the hill and placed it next to the other bees.

The flow was on.The 2 hives were making honey.The nuc seemed to thrive with the queen laying up the drawn comb.And then ,as the flow subsided,the nuc wasn't thriving.Close inspection showed AFB.Although I had seen(and smelled) samples,this was my first hive with AFB and in the heat of the flow I had missed the early signs.
My guess is that in cleaning up the old collapsed colony,the swarm picked up enough AFB spores to start an infection.The fresh brood in new comb,swarm vigor and the rapid colony expansion on a good flow,masked the infection until it got to the point where I noticed it.
So I burned the nuc,and,3 weeks later, the other 2 colonies(each with 2 supers of honey) as they started to show infection.They had either robbed the nuc or found something down the hill.

We buried everything,including the collapsed hives.
5 yrs later,I put a few hives in a different spot and now it averages a dozen or so hives and is a good producing yard.

Lesson learned. I am now hyper-vigilant.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> About 15 yrs ago I moved 2 hives.........


So what is the connection to the case on hand?
Per your logic this colony should be dead (because now they are surely have AFB?)
Well, they are alive and just came through the winter (the Nth time most likely).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fivej said:


> Highly unlikely you will catch a swarm from it by placing a swarm trap next to it. If it's warm enough there at night,50's, I would open it up and transfer whatever you can, however you can do it , into a new box. Suit up and don't over think it. You will be successful. Just keep the brood together in the middle. J


+1

In fact, as soon as I think a new queen can mate OK - I would go in and break this hive up into several splits.
Just presume you damage the queen when break the hive apart (and hope for the better!).
So on the spot just create several new colonies out of it and see what pans out.
I would not risk loosing a swarm waiting for it.
Well, have a trap setup anyway - about at least 100-200 yards away (not too close).


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

GregV said:


> So what is the connection to the case on hand?
> Per your logic this colony should be dead (because now they are surely have AFB?)
> Well, they are alive and just came through the winter (the Nth time most likely).


Just saying that any "old" comb could be a reservoir for AFB,whether it's an abandoned hive,a cutout or a barn find by your neighbors uncle.
I have also been around long enough to remember the recommendations to dust twice a year with OTC and cardboard strips dipped in Mavrik. Live bees does not imply healthy comb.
In my opinion,the only thing of value here might be the genetics of the queen,in which case I would cage the queen on some sealed brood (from another colony) along with foundation and a frame of open brood and stores,shake all the bees off the old comb and bury all the old comb and brood.Leave new equipment in place until they settle.

That's just me.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> Just saying that any "old" comb could be a reservoir for AFB,whether it's an abandoned hive,a cutout or a barn find by your neighbors uncle.
> ..................
> That's just me.


Going back to the original post we know - an old, rotten hive has been discovered with live bees - *mid-summer *2020.
One has not a clue how long bees have been in the hive.
For sure - there is NOT a talk about some swarm that just moved into an old hive.

If the hive was AFB infected back in mid-summer 2020 - these bees should be pretty much dead as a nail right now.
If the bees are still live as we speak, the AFB would be of little concern to worry about right this moment.
That test is pretty much over.


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