# What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??



## Andrew Dewey

MAQS because it is effective, the temp is not too hot here and MAQS is based on a naturally occurring substance (formic acid). I was happy with the old Mite Away - I plan to use Apiguard next year (rotation). MAQS is approved for use in Maine.


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## Solomon Parker

I use no treatments whatsoever, because I believe bees shouldn't need them. After some years of development, I now have minimal losses. I just wanted to say that it is a viable option, but I'm not going to push it here.


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## Andrew Dewey

I should note that I test my mite counts prior to applying treatment. If mite counts don't indicate a problem than no treatment. I also have some bees with genetics supposedly able to stand up to Varroa that do not get treated.

It would be nice if bees could survive without treatments. For my conventional hives I can't get my head around the potential losses from not treating - and I am at the point where I'm no longer willing to buy replacement bees if the bees I have die.


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## oldreliable

I'm with Solomon on this..I don't treat and quit feeding last year....feeding is a roughly new thing the way I see it. Go back 100 yrs or so and sugar was to expensive to feed to bees. Honey was the sweetener because of that reason. So why did we start feeding sugar? Leave hives to nature and you will find happier and healthier bees


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## snl

oldreliable said:


> So why did we start feeding sugar?


Simple... because honey was (is) selling for more than sugar. So we pull the honey, bring in the $$ and feed the bees sugar.


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## DPBsbees

Leave your hives to nature, and if you're out this way this spring, I'll be happy to sell you some nucs to replace your long since dead bees.


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## snl

BEEADDICT said:


> OK with all the different treatments these days what is everyone using for varroa mites and why??


There are TONS of posts on BS on this ...... a couple of searches and you'll have your answers...... and more!


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## Stingy

I used powdered sugar every three days for a couple weeks and that seems to have brought the mite population down a lot. I'm now debating my first strategy to treat them with HopGuard for three weeks in a row starting toward the end of the month.


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## sqkcrk

oldreliable said:


> I'm with Solomon on this..I don't treat and quit feeding last year....feeding is a roughly new thing the way I see it. Go back 100 yrs or so and sugar was to expensive to feed to bees. Honey was the sweetener because of that reason. So why did we start feeding sugar? Leave hives to nature and you will find happier and healthier bees


Actually that information is not reliable. Check back in the different Editions of "ABC&XYZ of Beekeeping" and you will find sugar being used as Bee Feed back in the 19th Century.

His question was about treating though. So, I am using Apigaurd. Trying to vary treatments to keep those mites on their toes. Do mites have toes?


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## AR Beekeeper

BEEADDICT; I think most beekeepers would recommend treatments that are a formic acid base, thymol base or a beta acid like Hopguard if you plan on using a chemical. Stay away from the chemicals that build up a residue in the wax. Other treatments that are not harsh or do not contaminate the hive are powdered sugar dusting and the use of drone comb removal. The combo of powdered sugar and drone comb removal require a little work but if you only have a few colonies it isn't bad. For treating nucs or splits Hopguard is good. There are methods of brood manipulations combined with drone brood removal that can rid a colony of 90% of varroa, but they are a lot of work if you have more than 2 colonies.


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## oldreliable

Ok I will check and research then post my findings to prove it to you. nectar is not sugar..bees eat nectar and not sugar. If your hives have a lot of verroa..the hive is not healthy...look to that problem first..powdered sugar is silly..yes it knocks some of the verroa off ut wont break the cycle..so save the trouble, raise healthy bees treatment free and no sugar


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## sqkcrk

Are your opinions based on many years of experience? Or what? This must be what it's like when I go on the Treatment Free Forum. lol :lpf:


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## sqkcrk

oldreliable, in my 1903 Edition of "ABC of Bee Culture" (so old they didn't have the letters XYZ yet. heh,heh) there is a section on Feeding and Feeders. They recommend the feeding of Sugar to avoid starvation and for stimulating.

All the other editions I have, several younger editions, have it in there too.

"The Hive and the Honey Bee" tells what to feed and how to feed it too.

If you can find a Cook Book from 1700s Virginia you won't find Honey at all, but you will find Sugar. Too bad you didn't say "or I'll eat my hat." "Hat" is 18th Century slang for a Cone of Sugar.


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## larrybeach

I used MAQS. The president of my local club uses it and recommends it. He is a very experienced beekeeper with over 200 hives. Also after inspecting some drone brood and finding mites on all of it I was worried I had a big problem. MAQS works on the adults as well as the bee larva. I have had it on for 5 days now and have found a lot of dead mites on the white board under the sbb.


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## sqkcrk

good job Larry.


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## David LaFerney

I just did the second round of Apiguard - thymol based, as in the herb thyme. Goes good with fish? Don't rub your face while you are using it though. No don't do that.

Anyway, Apiguard seems to suppress brood production for a few days after the initial application, But little or no mortality even in hot weather - and definitely makes them beard a lot for a few days. Also, you have to have some kind of spacer to use it - or at least I do. Cheap though if you buy the bulk container - about 60 doses if applied as per the label (but it works quite well at 1/2 dose) - about $100. The spacer can also be used for mountain camp sugar if you are one of us "sugar feeding idiots."

You can use Apiguard when it is too hot for formic acid - MAQS.


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## Luterra

I'd like to see a treatment "rating" thread here. Maybe they all work, and I'm just not doing it right with some of them.

My observations so far...

Thymol: Have used Apiguard and Apilife Var. Really pisses off the bees, leading to excessive bearding (~1/3 of the bees outside the hive, where they're not being treated), stinging of nearby humans, and suppressed brood production. Kills mites, but not in all hives (some propolize over/ignore the treatments and have less mite drop). Doesn't seem to kill queens at any significant rate. Still my choice for fall treatment of hives with marginal mite levels, though I might try HopGuard in this role instead.

Formic Acid: Have used MAQS. Kills nearly all mites in first two days of treatment, treatment essentially over after three days. Very impressive mite counts (1000+) on bottom boards after MAQS treatment. Also kills all open brood within 6" or so of the pads, and can kill queens (for me so far 1/5 or 20%, some area commercial beeks have reported queen loss up to 30%). My choice for spring treatment (when queens and swarms are available), or with some reluctance for heavily-infested strong hives in the fall.

Oxalic Acid: Have used syrup drench. Instantly and extremely effective, like MAQS, when used in early December when hives are nearly broodless. My choice to clean up hives where high mite loads survived thymol treatment.

Mark


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## Acebird

Solomon Parker said:


> I use no treatments whatsoever, because I believe bees shouldn't need them. After some years of development, I now have minimal losses. I just wanted to say that it is a viable option, but I'm not going to push it here.


I think you just did but I agree with you for a back yard beehaver. I understand it is not really an option for a commercial beekeeper but if you were thinking sideliner you should consider it.

Oops I think I was just pushing it. sorry.


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## Kirk Osborne

I have never and continue to not treat my bees with medications. When I start a hive from a package, I feed them sugar water and a pollen patty, just to get them going. Thats it. Once the hive has two boxes of drawn out comb, I pull the feed and they are on their own. Most beekeepers DO NOT do things this way and some will go as far as to critisize this type of beekeeping. To each their own.

My bees do fine. My urban hives do better than my rural hives, as far a honey production and hive strength. I've never seen any evidence of CCD beyond the internet/news.

Good luck!


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## Acebird

Well some people are using rat poison and statons and both are proven non effective for curbing heart attacks where as diet and exercise have been proven very effective. But who am I to dits a billion dollar industry? If we can't think clearly about our own health how could we even imagine how we could think clearly about an insect?

Take a pill and call me in the morning...


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## hilreal

Luterra said:


> I'd like to see a treatment "rating" thread here. Maybe they all work, and I'm just not doing it right with some of them.
> 
> I think Randy Oliver in ABJ and on his website, scientificbeekeeping.com has done a pretty good job of reviewing the options.


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## CardsBees

FYI statins (lipitor, zocor etc.) are probably best studied medication class in history and reduce rate of heart attack and stroke by 30-40% in moderate to high risk groups. Warfarin (ingredient in rat poison) is not used to treat heart attack but is used to reduce the risk of stroke in atrial fibrillation; reduces event rate by more than 60%.


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## Acebird

Dream on. Those are studies done by pharmaceuticals. They lie like hell.


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## sqkcrk

But not Brian, he does his own tests.


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## Rader Sidetrack

One of those tests seems to have gone really wrong ....


(wow, the lessons I learned from _WLC _apply in many threads! )


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## VolunteerK9

I'm using apivar this year...just put it on last week. I'm seeing a lot of dead mites so I am pleased. I'm tired of having these super strong hives that I just recently pull honey from just fade away to nothing. I've done the oxalic vapor as well as the dribble method later on. The vapor seems more effective however it take a lot of time if you have several hives to do (and I'm a one man operation) My best advice is to just pick one and try it, just beware of the cure all snake oils that people have came up with.


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## snl

VolunteerK9 said:


> I've done the oxalic vapor as well as the dribble method later on. The vapor seems more effective however it takes a lot of time if you have several hives to do (and I'm a one man operation)


Not so bad if you've several vaporizers. Your initial cost of several vaporizers is more than recouped by the small amount you pay for oxalic acid.


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## Solomon Parker

Luterra said:


> I'd like to see a treatment "rating" thread here. Maybe they all work, and I'm just not doing it right with some of them.


Check out the Bee Informed National Survey. It can be quite enlightening about the relative effectiveness of various treatments. beeinformed.org


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## burns375

Solomon Parker said:


> I use no treatments whatsoever, because I believe bees shouldn't need them. After some years of development, I now have minimal losses. I just wanted to say that it is a viable option, but I'm not going to push it here.


Excellent philosophy. Me too. Started with good feral black bee stock. My buddies italians from Kelley's have more mites.


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## JStinson

burns375 said:


> Excellent philosophy. Me too. Started with good feral black bee stock. My buddies italians from Kelley's have more mites.


Where did you find these bees? Are they still around in your area? We had them here in the 90's but they all seem to have disappeared. 

I wish they were calmer, but they're _so_ dang pretty.

Also, I would lurve to see some pictures of them.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> But not Brian, he does his own tests.


Actually Mark, I don't do any tests. I learn from people who have nothing to gain by what they say because I don't listen to those that do.


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## sqkcrk

Okay. I'm still going w/ my Doctor's advice when it comes to my health, not yours. Hope you don't get offended.


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## Acebird

Not at all. You have to do what you believe in.


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## beemandan

To the op…I’ll be using apiguard in most of my production hives. It is a bit disruptive for a day or two after each application but knocks the mites down. I’ve used apilife var and it works too but is a bit hot. I still use it every few years. I’ve tried hopguard but wasn’t particularly impressed with the results. I have not tried MAQS but probably will next year.
Sorry that you must put up with proselytizing from the tf folks. They have their own reservation where no one is allowed to mention treatments but they aren't satisfied. So they feel obligated to slip off the reservation and pump their philosophy everywhere else too.


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## David LaFerney

Solomon Parker said:


> Check out the Bee Informed National Survey. It can be quite enlightening about the relative effectiveness of various treatments. beeinformed.org


What it is not enlightening about is the question of if treatments are used correctly and timely. For example the OP seems to be thinking about treating his bees sometime in the near future - in my area that process probably should have started weeks ago - or at least should be well under way by now. 

Another example - formic treatments can be effective, but if used in hot weather can also kill bees. If thymol or oxalic treatments are not performed when brood levels are low they require a follow up treatment at the correct time to get the mites that were in capped brood initially. Many treatments effect brood rearing for a time - so if you perform them during the height of the build up you could cripple the hive. "I treated, and my bees died anyway..." is probably often not a complete story of what happened.


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## Solomon Parker

David LaFerney said:


> What it is not enlightening about is the question of if treatments are used correctly and timely. ... "I treated, and my bees died anyway..." is probably often not a complete story of what happened.


Absolutely right. But that's the same with everything, treating, not treating, etc. We can all interpret the results as unfair to our position if we choose to. But that's speculation and goes beyond what the data says.


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## beemandan

David LaFerney said:


> What it is not enlightening about is the question of if treatments are used correctly and timely.


Every controlled study that goes against their ‘philosophy’ gets put under a microscope and all the imaginary flaws heralded as negating the entire study.
But…let a random poll…without a stitch of oversight….give them results they like and it automatically becomes gospel…without any question. 
Makes my brain hurt.


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## David LaFerney

Solomon - Sorry, no. Data always requires interpretation. Otherwise the crowing of roosters causes the sun to rise.


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## Solomon Parker

David LaFerney said:


> Solomon - Sorry, no. Data always requires interpretation. Otherwise the crowing of roosters causes the sun to rise.


But David, you're forgetting one of the first rules of data interpretation, correlation is not necessarily causation.


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## David LaFerney

beemandan said:


> Every controlled study that goes against their ‘philosophy’ gets put under a microscope and all the imaginary flaws heralded as negating the entire study.
> But…let a random poll…without a stitch of oversight….give them results they like and it automatically becomes gospel…without any question.
> Makes my brain hurt.


Human nature. We see what we want to see. One of the main points of the scientific method is to minimize confirmation bias, and one of the first steps to being scientific is to accept that you have confirmation bias.


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## David LaFerney

Solomon Parker said:


> But David, you're forgetting one of the first rules of data interpretation, correlation is not necessarily causation.


Actually I'm not. I'm speculating that PPB is probably a bigger factor in bee death than treating or not treating. Or at least as much of a factor. 

And yet another hijacked thread.


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## Solomon Parker

What's hijacked? How do you ask what treatments people are using without getting a discussion about which ones work?



David LaFerney said:


> Actually I'm not.


Then what's the point of bringing up roosters?



David LaFerney said:


> I'm speculating...


Yes, it's easy to go beyond the data, but all we have is the data, in a voluntary survey no less. Think of the bias inherent in a voluntary survey, yet, it is the data that is available.


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## beemandan

David LaFerney said:


> Human nature. We see what we want to see.


It may have been Depak Chopra...or Wayne Dyer...or one of those folks who said..'You'll see it when you believe it'. 
There is truth in that but, not to my thinking, as they intended.


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## bison

Rumor is that Taktic works very well.


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## Michael Bush

>'You'll see it when you believe it'. 

Sometimes you have an opinion when you start (what else is the source of a proposed theory in order to try to prove or disprove it). Some of us are just looking for the truth. I certainly had no preconceived notions when I encountered Varroa for the first time, nor when I tried various things to control it. I had no idea what would and would not work.

>one of the first steps to being scientific is to accept that you have confirmation bias. 

Part of the problem with the scientists is they have, not only a confirmed bias, but a bias complicated by the politics. You have to assume what has already been "proven" to be true because if you set out to disprove a colleague who will someday review your work, you may be shooting yourself in the foot as far as ever getting published again...


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## Acebird

Michael Bush said:


> Part of the problem with the scientists is they have, not only a confirmed bias, but a bias complicated by the politics. You have to assume what has already been "proven" to be true because if you set out to disprove a colleague who will someday review your work, you may be shooting yourself in the foot as far as ever getting published again...


 Listen collectively to the people who have nothing to gain from the interpretation of the data. That narrows it down a lot to who you can listen to.


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## sqkcrk

beemandan said:


> They have their own reservation where no one is allowed to mention treatments but they aren't satisfied. So they feel obligated to slip off the reservation and pump their philosophy everywhere else too.


Tit for tat. If you don't mind it don't matter. There is room for their voices here. I guess it isn't really Off Topic to answer a question about "What is everybody doing?" by saying "I ain't." Otherwise, how would we get any idea about what evrybody is doing.

On t'other hand the question was about Treatments. And if Treatment Free Beekeepers aren't using treatments is it right to answer "None. Don't believe in it."? Could be.

What happened to oldreliable? Thought he was coming back w/ evidence.


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## sqkcrk

Solomon Parker said:


> Absolutely right. But that's the same with everything, treating, not treating, etc. We can all interpret the results as unfair to our position if we choose to. But that's speculation and goes beyond what the data says.


That's why I like to give and to hear the answer phrased as "I don't know why they died. But I think this is what happened.", such as when I had my biggest loss and felt that the problem was ineffective mite treatment materials and viruses. But I am not certain about that.


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## sqkcrk

David LaFerney said:


> Solomon - Sorry, no. Data always requires interpretation. Otherwise the crowing of roosters causes the sun to rise.


Well, that's how it started. But once it got going crowing roosters weren't needed.


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## sqkcrk

David LaFerney said:


> Human nature. We see what we want to see. One of the main points of the scientific method is to minimize confirmation bias, and one of the first steps to being scientific is to accept that you have confirmation bias.


Not me. heh,heh


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## Barry

sqkcrk said:


> On t'other hand the question was about Treatments. And if Treatment Free Beekeepers aren't using treatments is it right to answer "None. Don't believe in it."? Could be.


I try to point some of these things out, but some just don't see it. How true, Mark. It cuts both ways.


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## sqkcrk

bison said:


> Rumor is that Taktic works very well.


Not a rumor, just off label. Therefor not to be discussed. If I understand the rules of engagement on beesource.


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## sqkcrk

Michael Bush said:


> >'You'll see it when you believe it'.
> 
> Sometimes you have an opinion when you start (what else is the source of a proposed theory in order to try to prove or disprove it). Some of us are just looking for the truth. I certainly had no preconceived notions when I encountered Varroa for the first time, nor when I tried various things to control it. I had no idea what would and would not work.
> 
> >one of the first steps to being scientific is to accept that you have confirmation bias.
> 
> Part of the problem with the scientists is they have, not only a confirmed bias, but a bias complicated by the politics. You have to assume what has already been "proven" to be true because if you set out to disprove a colleague who will someday review your work, you may be shooting yourself in the foot as far as ever getting published again...


Be nice to folks you encounter on the way up. They will be there again on your way down.


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## David LaFerney

sqkcrk said:


> Not me. heh,heh


Me neither of course.  

Actually did lol there. Not very l, but still.


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## sqkcrk

Barry said:


> I try to point some of these things out, but some just don't see it. How true, Mark. It cuts both ways.


Some wiseacre once said that what goes around comes around. Or is it the other way. I get confused. Been breathing too much Apigaurd. lol


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## Barry

sqkcrk said:


> Be nice to folks you encounter on the way up. They will be there again on your way down.


You're quite the sage! :thumbsup:


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## sqkcrk

Something my Theatrical/Acting Teacher taught me ages ago in another life. Can't say as I have always put it to use, but it's always there.

Solomon and I had to get used to each other, kinda like a new wolf joining the pack.


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## David LaFerney

Michael Bush said:


> >'>one of the first steps to being scientific is to accept that you have confirmation bias.
> 
> Part of the problem with the scientists is they have, not only a confirmed bias, but a bias complicated by the politics. You have to assume what has already been "proven" to be true because if you set out to disprove a colleague who will someday review your work, you may be shooting yourself in the foot as far as ever getting published again...


I'm not a scientist (I wish I was) but as I understand it they don't execute research to prove or disprove something, but rather to uncover the truth. And if you design research just to prove your position it will probably fail the peer review process - even if your original hypothesis was correct. But yes scientist are clearly people too, with all of the self delusion and human weakness that we all suffer from. That's why some of the best research is double blind.


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## Michael Bush

>but as I understand it they don't execute research to prove or disprove something, but rather to uncover the truth. 

The scientific method always involves proposing a hypothesis and constructing and executing experiments intended to have results that can prove or disprove that hypothesis.

The steps of the scientific method are to:

o Make observations.
o Propose a hypothesis.
o Design and perform an experiment to test the hypothesis.
o Analyze your data to determine whether to accept or reject the hypothesis.
o If necessary, propose and test a new hypothesis. 

http://chemistry.about.com/od/lecturenotesl3/a/sciencemethod.htm

Of course you are supposed to be doing all of this with no stake in the outcome, but we always have a stake in the outcome unless someone else proposed the hypothesis. I've often found myself in exactly that position as a skeptic. Someone has said something works and I simply want to know the answer.

Back to the method. I think it's important (and with Francis Huber you can see many good examples) that after your first experiment you try to find any flaw that you may have overlooked. Could anyone, based on your hypothesis and results come to some other conclusion as to the cause of the results? Then you construct subsequent experiments to cover every other reasonable explanation that you (or you colleagues) can come up with. Only after you have done that would you want to share it to be critiqued by others who may come up with other objections that would also need to be resolved by subsequent experiments. Assuming objectivity and assuming you continue until the objections have all been eliminated you should be able to come to some fairly sound conclusion as to the actual facts.

Unfortunately this is not how science is typically done anymore. It's no longer about actual mechanisms being proven by eliminating all other reasonable mechanisms, it's about correlation of statistical data. Since beekeeping is about an organism that is very complex (as is human physiology) and in the case of the colony, a super-organism that is interacting with an environment that is in a constant state of change due to seasons, and climate and civilization, those statistics probably only show other variations that are unrelated to the actual hypothesis.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm


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## justin

I'm using maqs right now on my 90 production colonies, and crossing my fingers. last year i used hopguard in the spring and made a good honey crop. i used it again in the fall, but for only 2 weeks instead of three, and lost forty of eighty colonies by december. Only a few made it until spring. my current plan involves getting better at keeping them alive, and then running some treatment free and some as i am now.justin


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## Solomon Parker

Ouch, Justin, how many is a few?


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## WLC

I'll just say that science is more than just a method. It's a belief system.

I fed my bees LAB fermented syrup and milk, and they didn't die.

It's a different kind of treatment that's making the rounds in the literature.

Why did I try it out?

It's not just the science behind it. I personally believe in probiotics.

What makes for a great published study?

It's the Principal Investigators (PIs) behind it. 

I can say this because of all the seminars, and seminar courses, I've been through.

Their beliefs shine through.

Of course, the other elements of the scientific method need to be there, and they can be truly brilliant as well.

WLC.


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## minz

On hives with greater than 12 mites in a PS roll: Formic on a fume board. So far the mite count is really knocked down but a couple of my hives I checked this weekend look pretty weak. I need to get them some food or write them off!
http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/FAFumigat.pdf
Jury is still out.


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## squarepeg

WLC said:


> What makes for a great published study?
> 
> It's the Principal Investigators (PIs) behind it.
> 
> I can say this because of all the seminars, and seminar courses, I've been through.
> 
> Their beliefs shine through.
> 
> Of course, the other elements of the scientific method need to be there, and they can be truly brilliant as well.
> 
> WLC.



agreed. the other thing is that there are a lot of competing beliefs out there and even after a study is published in a peer reviewed journal, it will still receive a lot of scrutiny from those with competing beliefs challenging the methodology and conclusions.


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## Barry

Scientists included.


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## squarepeg

especially scientists.


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## justin

"ouch, Justin, how many is a few?"
only 11 survived, and then a bear got one in may. i work for a comm. beek in the spring and was paid in nuc's this year, introduced some new blood from a couple sources, and am treating for winter bees earlier this time. i'm only treating for mites this year vs. tylan and fumadil last year. living and hopefully learning.


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## PatBeek

.

This video should be required-viewing for all 7th-graders:


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## Kirk Osborne

Thanks for posting that link, PatBeek. I agree.


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## sqkcrk

How long after Treating does it take for a colonies pH to come back?

Can someone install a fatbeeman/OA fumigation Youtube video for me. I'm challenged.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> How long after Treating does it take for a colonies pH to come back?


What is the dosage of the treatment and how strong is the colony to start with?


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## sqkcrk

Okay. Say after a proper dose of Apigaurd.


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## Beelosopher

I have seen that video from Michael Bush and share in his philosophy. However for a new guy, It think it is really hard to completely skip out on all the treatments with new bees. My bees are not regressed, and though I have several locally raised queens and one outside of area queen I am not sure I have the genetics to forgo treatments entirely. I also only have 4 hives this year and plan to stay at that number plus 4 nucs if I can swing it for next season.

Michael has said himself that he treated with fmgo and then oxalic acid for a few years prior to going without treatment. During that time he was regressing, etc. So it can't be that you completely ruin the hive PH long term with those treatments, or create super mites, or he would not have been able to get his bees off treatments. Am I missing something here? Just saying that I think a rash reaction of taking all treatments off the table may not work well for most people in their situations. Certain treatments buy you time and allow you the opportunity to develop better stock/regress.


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## Oldtimer

sqkcrk said:


> Okay. Say after a proper dose of Apigaurd.


Well (as I'm sure you know LOL) the smell of Apiguard can persist for many weeks.

But, does it really matter is the question. With all these moulds, 30 kinds of mites, etc, that are supposed to get killed, well all up can't say I've noticed a negative effect on the hives from that.


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## sqkcrk

Beelosopher said:


> I have seen that video from Michael Bush and share in his philosophy. However for a new guy, It think it is really hard to completely skip out on all the treatments with new bees. My bees are not regressed, and though I have several locally raised queens and one outside of area queen I am not sure I have the genetics to forgo treatments entirely. I also only have 4 hives this year and plan to stay at that number plus 4 nucs if I can swing it for next season.
> 
> Michael has said himself that he treated with fmgo and then oxalic acid for a few years prior to going without treatment. During that time he was regressing, etc. So it can't be that you completely ruin the hive PH long term with those treatments, or create super mites, or he would not have been able to get his bees off treatments. Am I missing something here? Just saying that I think a rash reaction of taking all treatments off the table may not work well for most people in their situations. Certain treatments buy you time and allow you the opportunity to develop better stock/regress.


Well, if you don't start not treating you won't get to not treating very easily. Seems like you have bees that might get by w/out treatments already. All you have to do is not start treating. Regression isn't necessary to Treatment Free as far as I know. Small Cell is a side issue. Isn't it?


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## Michael Bush

>Michael has said himself that he treated with fmgo and then oxalic acid for a few years prior to going without treatment. 

It's not so much that I used those on all the hives prior to going without treatment. I was running many experiments at the same time. After losing all my bees several times treating and not treating on large cell, I was skeptical of small cell. I was using FGMO on some of the hives to see if that was another possibility. I was using Oxalic acid, both to measure the effectiveness of other systems (FGMO and small cell) and to see the effectiveness of the Oxalic acid. I would not characterize this as a transition strategy but rather several simultaneous experiments looking for a solution to the Varroa problems I had experienced. Knowing what I know now, I could skip the FGMO and Oxalic and go straight to natural cell size. But at the time small cell was just one of several experiments for which I did not know the long term outcome yet.


----------



## Beelosopher

sqkcrk said:


> Well, if you don't start not treating you won't get to not treating very easily. Seems like you have bees that might get by w/out treatments already. All you have to do is not start treating. Regression isn't necessary to Treatment Free as far as I know. Small Cell is a side issue. Isn't it?


True, but I won't get there if my bees die either  If your small cell treatment frees rob out a hive that has varroa, I assume they can still get enough infestation to be overcome without some help. I live in an area that has a lot of bees, including traveling bees.

I hear you Mark, and if I can get by without treating I surely will. I have seen mite loads go up dramatically on sticky boards over the past month or so. I am still doing well below what many consider treating levels in this area, but I be won't if I get 100 mites in 24 hours how that might influence my situation. This is also my first year so it might be my pass.

My bees are from two local beeks, one who does feral cutouts (mixed more towards carniolan) and another local guy who has an Italian based line. The second set of bees, according to the bee keeper, are not "mite resistant". We will find out if either set is  

Sure they are in my boxes so perhaps the micro ecological system Mr. Bush speaks of may be intact. But so far mite levels seem very similar (from each line) from what sticky boards tell me. And the Italian hives are much larger. 

From what I interpreted, Mr. Bush believes getting to small/natural cell size is a keystone to getting to treatment free (apologies if I missed on this one). My second year will be focused on moving to foundationless in the brood areas and working towards regression that way.


----------



## Beelosopher

Michael Bush said:


> >Michael has said himself that he treated with fmgo and then oxalic acid for a few years prior to going without treatment.
> 
> It's not so much that I used those on all the hives prior to going without treatment. I was running many experiments at the same time. After losing all my bees several times treating and not treating on large cell, I was skeptical of small cell. I was using FGMO on some of the hives to see if that was another possibility. I was using Oxalic acid, both to measure the effectiveness of other systems (FGMO and small cell) and to see the effectiveness of the Oxalic acid. I would not characterize this as a transition strategy but rather several simultaneous experiments looking for a solution to the Varroa problems I had experienced. Knowing what I know now, I could skip the FGMO and Oxalic and go straight to natural cell size. But at the time small cell was just one of several experiments for which I did not know the long term outcome yet.


I misunderstood your comments on oxalic and fmgo - sorry Michael. When I read them I assumed they were a large part of what helped you knock the mites down enough to let the bees get manageable mite levels while regressing. My larger assumption is similar to what you said. In the midst of many experiments, something started working. So there may have been many things that your did correctly to ultimately get your bees off the juice.

One thing that concerns me is that I am not sure I can maintain treatment free based on the small number of hives I have. I also don't plan to expand.


----------



## Oldtimer

No need to justify yourself Beelosopher. 

Fact is, only a tiny number of US hives are treatment free, only a tiny fraction of 1%. Sounds like for you, treatment is necessary.

Having said that, there are a growing number of small beekeepers keeping treatment free bees, and the evidence is that there is growing mite resistance in the general population. Which means at some point you could switch queens to a more mite resistant breed and you may be able to forgo treatments.

Absolutely your choice, whether you do or don't treat your 4 hives has no effect on the grand scheme of things.

Just one thing, if treatment free is an eventual goal, the treatment you do now, should be something non residual, ie, does not leave permanent residue in the combs. That is because there is a theory, and it may be true, that treatment residue in the combs makes it hard for bees to resist mites if they are treatment free. Apivar (not Api life var) is a good, easy to use treatment, that does not leave a permanent toxic residue.

It is good though, seeing a new beekeeper taking it seriously enough to monitor and deal with mites if need be. So many, and I know some personally, start up with high ideals of being treatment free, and lose every bee. I sell replacement bees to them, sometimes every year to the same person. No point, they are not treating, but I'm doing it for them. And some of them leave the hobby disillusioned.


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## PatBeek

.

I have a simple illustration as to what starts happening when you treat hives, especially with man-made chemicals, antibiotics and such:





.


However, instead of just ONE head popping up at a time, several start popping up at a time.

You kill one bug, you create three more problems.

You use antibiotics - you get things like MRSA. It's all very simple.

Have a nice time on that treadmill. No thanks.


----------



## Beelosopher

PatBeek said:


> .
> 
> Have a nice time on that treadmill. No thanks.


Just curious, how long have you been successfully treatment free? Do you utilize IPM strategies like brood breaks? i.e. what is your strategy? (This may be getting off topic)


oldtimer - thanks for your words. My hope is that I can buy another year or two with brood breaks in the spring and hopefully not have to treat next year as well. My hope is to take as educated an approach as possible. If I have to replace bees consistently to get there... they better be from my own nucs or I won't be a wanna-beek for long!


----------



## beemandan

PatBeek said:


> Have a nice time on that treadmill. No thanks.


And another unsolicited sermon......


----------



## David LaFerney

But everyone just loves to be proselytized to. Don't we?


----------



## PatBeek

beemandan said:


> And another unsolicited sermon......


But they are all OUR bees.......or the WORLD'S bees (not belonging to humans)

If they all collapse, it affects ALL of us.

It's just like GMO foods/seeds. Those frankenfoods are being spread to other farmers who want no part in this grand experiment....... not to mention us consumers.

All of this "science" - (ahem...science has become a religion) is pretty much going to extinct us all unless these madmen are stopped.

Just because you shroud something in the term 'science' doesn't make it ethical, moral or wise necessarily.

In fact, most of what's paraded around as 'science' now is busily destroying the planet.

We are being tampered to death - literally.


----------



## PatBeek

Beelosopher said:


> Just curious, how long have you been successfully treatment free? Do you utilize IPM strategies like brood breaks? i.e. what is your strategy? (This may be getting off topic)


I have three hives that are completely treatment free. I never see any varroa mites and have never encountered anything remotely resembling CCD.

But see, this topic goes far beyond just bees, pesticides, treatments, etc.


----------



## beemandan

I took this quote from another thread today....posted by WLC...a tf beekeeper.


WLC said:


> I would say 3 successful consecutive overwinterings.
> 
> I can say that because of the results of the stationary hive project.
> 
> They didn't treat over 200 hives, and lost most after the first season, and all by the 3rd.


I think it makes a point. In the trial over 200 hives were left untreated. By the end of three years they had ALL collapsed. 
So...when you refer to saving 'our' bees you may want to think about that. And...understand that not everyone else shares your opinion....and that just because its your opinion doesn't necessarily make it a fact.
I treat my bees....and believe it is essential for their survival. Yet...when someone posts their desire to be treatment free...I don't feel the need to preach my sermon to them.
I think everyone should be extended the same courtesy.


----------



## PatBeek

beemandan said:


> I think it makes a point. In the trial over 200 hives were left untreated. By the end of three years they had ALL collapsed.
> So...when you refer to saving 'our' bees you may want to think about that. And...understand that not everyone else shares your opinion....and that just because its your opinion doesn't necessarily make it a fact.


Once the bees are addicted to chemical treadmill, it's very hard to go kick that habit.

By that time, they have been weakened to the point of almost no immunity.

Ask Dee Lusby about her hives?

Ask Sam Comfort about his hives, even after he worked for years in the poison/medical setting. He's very familiar with both sides of the equation.

.


----------



## sqkcrk

PatBeek said:


> I have three hives that are completely treatment free. I never see any varroa mites and have never encountered anything remotely resembling CCD.
> 
> But see, this topic goes far beyond just bees, pesticides, treatments, etc.
> 
> This is going on with vaccines, antibiotics, prescription drugs, etc.
> 
> In fact, Here's mainstream proof that vaccines are causing bacteria and viruses to mutate. Again, they are tampering us into extinction:
> 
> *Vaccines are causing mutations, creating a similar problem as antibiotics*
> 
> http://www.polkmoms.com/forum/topics/are-vaccines-causing-mutations-creating-a-similar-problem-as
> 
> And that's NOT off-topic because it's more examples of 'science' destroying everything because THEY want to play god.
> 
> 
> .


I am today applying eye drops in preperation for cataract surgery tomorrow. Do you think I should stop taking the eye drops now? Should I skip the cataract surgery?


----------



## sqkcrk

PatBeek said:


> Ask Dee Lusby about her hives?
> 
> Ask Sam Comfort about his hives, even after he worked for years in the poison/medical setting. He's very familiar with both sides of the equation.
> 
> .


Apple Bees and Orange Bees.

Arguing about Treatment Free Beekeeping does not answer the Thread Title Question.


----------



## beemandan

sqkcrk said:


> I am today applying eye drops in preperation for cataract surgery tomorrow. Do you think I should stop taking the eye drops now? Should I skip the cataract surgery?


Let me know how that works out Mark....I'm going to have to do the same this year.


----------



## PatBeek

sqkcrk said:


> I am today applying eye drops in preperation for cataract surgery tomorrow. Do you think I should stop taking the eye drops now? Should I skip the cataract surgery?


You should ask what the root cause of the cataracts are instead of treating the symptoms. Modern medicine does almost nothing to address the root cause.

Here's the root cause of these ailments:

*Lack of nutrition*

*Overly toxic*

Did the doctor find out what nutrients you were deficient in?

Did he do a test to see, for example, if you are high in heavy metals or other pollutants?

Doubt it.

.


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## sqkcrk

When did the verb "extincting" come into existence?

I believe that there is so much more to any story that saying that this is the end, or that this will cause us to become extinct, is silly and not very intelligent. Honey bees are not going to die. Not in our life time or our grandchildrens life time. If I told you that Worldwide there are more managed colonies of bees than there have been in recent history what would you say about that?


----------



## Beelosopher

PatBeek said:


> I have three hives that are completely treatment free. I never see any varroa mites and have never encountered anything remotely resembling CCD.


I am happy this is the case for you, but I feel like you are doing teh treatment free beekeeping community a disservice. Here is why... I have never seen ccd or anything remotely close to a serious issue with my four hives health and I am treatment free so far. Unless you count my bee tree, I got my first hives started this past June. I don't think this gives me the experience I need to advise other beekeepers on this topic (I simply lack experience, though I am well read). 

When I look at your website and your commentary on beesource, it is evident you have only been keeping bees just recently. You lack the experience to be a knowledgeable and experienced source on this topic. Mr. Bush is another story (he has been at this a while), yet he has always extended courtesy on beesource and in person with his talks to beekeepers who disagree with his methods.

I certainly have my leanings with treatment free but I agree with what beemandan is saying. Courtesy should be extended, and inflaming statements should be kept out. If it isn't your otherwise possibly viable contributions are ignored. It is ok to have opinions, but you should be respectful of others. I feel like you are falling short here.

be well


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## beemandan

PatBeek...if you want to thump that bible...start a new thread and take the pulpit.
Otherwise I may decide to contaminate every tf post I see with my opinion.
You see, if you don't extend common courtesy to me...I have a habit or doing the same.


----------



## sqkcrk

PatBeek said:


> You should ask what the root cause of the cataracts are instead of treating the symptoms. Modern medicine does almost nothing to address the root cause.
> 
> Here's the root cause of these ailments:
> 
> *Lack of nutrition*
> 
> *Overly toxic*
> 
> Did the doctor find out what nutrients you were deficient in?
> 
> Did he do a test to see, for example, if you are high in heavy metals or other pollutants?
> 
> Doubt it.
> 
> .


Did you answer the question I asked you? No.

I already have cataracts. As did my Sister and my Father. Are you saying that had my Doctor determined a lack of something such as what you noted that a change in diet or a vitamin supplement would clear up the catarcat?

What about my tenitis? What do you prescribe for that? How about my bad knees? My baldness?

Man, I'm a mess, aren't I? lol


----------



## sqkcrk

beemandan said:


> PatBeek...if you want to thump that bible...start a new thread and take the pulpit.
> Otherwise I may decide to contaminate every tf post I see with my opinion.
> You see, if you don't extend common courtesy to me...I have a habit or doing the same.


Higher road ahead Dan. Two wrongs don't make a right, my Mom often told me.

She died from a subdural hematoma. Too bad someone didn't get to her before she fell to tell her not to walk on damp leaves on a gravel path. Or maybe it was gravity did her in. Or what she was fed in the Hospital.


----------



## beemandan

sqkcrk said:


> Higher road ahead Dan. Two wrongs don't make a right, my Mom often told me.


I know.....
This is an example of someone who has chosen to be spoonfed their life's philosophy....and they've chosen poorly. A sad waste of gray matter....
Sorry about your mother


----------



## PatBeek

sqkcrk said:


> When did the verb "extincting" come into existence?


I made it up.

Hey, what about John P. Holdren?

What about the quotes I posted from that "scientist"? 

.


----------



## sqkcrk

beemandan said:


> I know.....
> This is an example of someone who has chosen to be spoonfed their life's philosophy....and they've chosen poorly. A sad waste of gray matter....
> Sorry about your mother


I was reading too fast and read "gray" as "gravy". lol

Thanks, happened 8 years ago. If she hadn't slipped and fell walking back to the car I bet she would still be alive today. That would have been nice. Life happens.


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## sqkcrk

I noticed that your Biography under "About Me" in your Profile doesn't say much of anything about you yourself either. Certainly there must be more to you than a one year interest in bees and 48 years of age.


----------



## PatBeek

sqkcrk said:


> I noticed that your Biography under "About Me" in your Profile doesn't say much of anything about you yourself either. Certainly there must be more to you than a one year interest in bees and 48 years of age.


Of whom are you referring?

I'm 47.

.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm

What the heck is going on here?!? Has every flake on the entire planet suddenly taken up beekeeping? And why, oh, why have they ALL suddenly alighted here at beesource?!?

:scratch:

Rusty


----------



## Beelosopher

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> What the heck is going on here?!? Has every flake on the entire planet suddenly taken up beekeeping? And why, oh, why have they ALL suddenly alighted here at beesource?!?
> 
> :scratch:
> 
> Rusty


Ha ha! 

Hey I don't like monsanto, opcorn: but holey cow this thread took a turn even I didn't see coming.


----------



## sqkcrk

Beelosopher said:


> Ha ha!
> 
> Hey I don't like monsanto, opcorn: but holey cow this thread took a turn even I didn't see coming.


So what are you using on your bees for mites?


----------



## Beelosopher

sqkcrk said:


> So what are you using on your bees for mites?


Nothing so far. I have just been tracking their growth with sticky boards on for three days every couple of weeks. From averaging 2-4 per day, per hive in late july (3 day average) to 8-16 per hive, per day (highest numbers on the most recent hot days we have had). Local guys say 100 mites per day is a treatment threshold.

In a nutshell: 

If I were to go the route of treating, I had been considering FGMO, Oxalic (oxalic as needed by mite drop findings only). FGMO has been looking less attractive to me of late. I had also considered MAQS and Apiguard because that is what the local beek uses who I got two of the hives from. He is very successful (IMO) and has low deadout rates with his hive management. 

Since this is my first year I am hoping the levels are low enough, prior to winter, to skip treatment. If that goes, my plan was to have a brood break in the spring for each hive to knock mite counts down. I was considering doing this with OTS queen rearing type method. Instead of pinching the queen, I would move the existing queen to a smaller nuc(with minimal stores) until all is well and a new laying queen is present and laying 30 das later. Then I had the intention of making 4 nucs with new queens for the winter (similar to a local beek/ mike palmer's style of nucs). I haven't ironed it all out, but the plan would be to start regressing next year by using foundationless (dropping frames every other in the brood nest and moving solid drone come up to supers or out to the extremity of the brood nest). The following spring would require me to recombine, or sell nucs (if enough make it) and start the process over again. My goal is to have 4 hives each year and support losses with 4 nucs, striving for tx free.


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## Depriest88

Well i have only 1 beehive. I haven't had any problems with the mites. I check all the time for them because of the problems that most beekeepers are having problems with them. I have 15 beetle blasters, which u put in between 2 frames, and i haven't used none of them yet. I keep my bees in a plastic beehive, with wood frames, from http://www.shamrocksbees.com which is a very wonderful invention. I haven't had any problems with the bees or any types of invasion from pests. 

As for the treatments, if your using your bees manly for honey production i would strongly recommend not using any types of chemicals on the bees at all!! I would use a screened bottom board and something like the beetle blasters, but nothing that involves chemicals. I think bees adapt and they have no reason to use chemicals on them and if you do find some mites do it in a way that wont contaminate your honey!! Im strongly against putting any types of chemicals on my bees!!!


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## Beelosopher

Depriest88 said:


> Well i have only 1 beehive. I haven't had any problems with the mites. I check all the time for them because of the problems that most beekeepers are having problems with them. I have 15 beetle blasters, which u put in between 2 frames, and i haven't used none of them yet. I keep my bees in a plastic beehive, with wood frames, from http://www.shamrocksbees.com which is a very wonderful invention. I haven't had any problems with the bees or any types of invasion from pests.
> 
> As for the treatments, if your using your bees manly for honey production i would strongly recommend not using any types of chemicals on the bees at all!! I would use a screened bottom board and something like the beetle blasters, but nothing that involves chemicals. I think bees adapt and they have no reason to use chemicals on them and if you do find some mites do it in a way that wont contaminate your honey!! Im strongly against putting any types of chemicals on my bees!!!


Is this an add?

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?288263-Plastic-Shamrock-Beehives
says here you plan to start bee keeping in april 2014 ?? :scratch:


----------



## Oldtimer

Had a bit of a chuckle reading this and another thread. The irony is, that over in the treatment free forum, they are squealing cos they say that people who treat barge in and tell them they shouldn't be treatment free, they are wrong, they should treat. Couple people there VERY steamed about that.

But here in thread asking which treatments should be used, it is inundated and derailed, by people insisting the person should not treat at all. Happening in the other similar thread also, by the SAME person who is the main whinger on the topic, over on the treatment free forum. How's that for inconsistent LOL.

Beelosopher, I would consider 100 mites per day VERY high. Particularly going into winter, you need healthy bees to get through that broodless period. It also doesn't pay to wait to the very end of brood raising. Commonly it is said that you need at least two cycles of healthy brood going through, prior to winter.


----------



## Beelosopher

Oldtimer said:


> Beelosopher, I would consider 100 mites per day VERY high. Particularly going into winter, you need healthy bees to get through that broodless period. It also doesn't pay to wait to the very end of brood raising. Commonly it is said that you need at least two cycles of healthy brood going through, prior to winter.


I hear you on much of the above comments about the tx free forum. It is a constant the we can't have an honest conversation in the middle; I find that frustrating. If I get 100 mites per day average on a three day sticky board this year... am I supposed to let the bees die off? That is my only stock and a good amount of money. That is part of why I can't defend being extreme to one side or the other.

I have read all sorts of numbers for mite count thresholds so what you are saying makes sense. I was more loking at the growth of mites present as a factor of percentage and that was getting me nervous. Since the start, the values have doubled and in some cases tripled. I assume that will persist more, so I plan to keep checking in on it.

What are the thresholds that you use? (my thoughts are in line with yours that you can't hold off and treat, then have potentially sickly bees going into winter).


----------



## Oldtimer

OK well over here, 30 to 40 a day is commonly considered maximum and seen as fatal if not dealt with. But that's here, our bees, our viruses, our climate, you may be different. But in any case, everything you say points to bees with no resistance, and to get through winter they have to go in with a good portion of bees raised with no mite in the cell with them, and not too great of a mite load to badger them through winter.

Myself I don't use drop boards, I go by looking at the hive, looking for things like DWV, PMS, and even subtle bee behaviours. That is where the damage is being done, and is more critical than a mite count which does not take virus levels into the equation. However the way I do it is a judgement call, and just if or when to treat is subjective. So for a new beekeeper a mite count at least gives an arbitrary number, a person can decide if numbers hit x, at some particular point of the season, they treat. It removes guesswork and is a useful tool until more experience is gained.


----------



## sqkcrk

Beelosopher said:


> I hear you on much of the above comments about the tx free forum. It is a constant the we can't have an honest conversation in the middle; I find that frustrating. If I get 100 mites per day average on a three day sticky board this year... am I supposed to let the bees die off? That is my only stock and a good amount of money. That is part of why I can't defend being extreme to one side or the other.


So in other words you have counted 300 mites on your sticky boards after 3 days?

You can't partly treat. If you decide that your mite levels warrant treating to protect your investment your next decision is what material to use.


----------



## wildbranch2007

sqkcrk said:


> So in other words you have counted 300 mites on your sticky boards after 3 days?


 he said if. he doesn't have a mite problem at this point.
must say though am enjoying the thread, except my neighbor was treatment free, there hives are now stacked in the apiary dead, my hives are being treated with MAQS as there mite load is now merged with my mite load. It's costing me time and money and diesel fuel to try and save my hives. I'm contemplating sending them a bill.
just to stay on topic, I treat with apiguard, only using Maqs as the honey supers are still on, but not filled do to lack of bees.


----------



## Andrew Dewey

David LaFerney said:


> But everyone just loves to be proselytized to. Don't we?


And another one gets IGNORED.


----------



## sqkcrk

I get confused when people say things like he said. If that's what he finds he better treat.

Your neighbor will say the mites that killed their bees came from your hives, not vice versa. Really, you both had mites. Do mites really abandone ship and find a new home while a colony is dying?


----------



## Oldtimer

Yes it's interesting about mite transfer. I have seen hives on the way out due to mites, with thousands of mites. But when the hive is almost gone, like 100 bees or something, much less mites, and when dead, barely a mite to be seen.

I am sure mites have devised a way to get themselves transferred out of a dying hive, to a different hive. It may be by recognising robber bees and getting on them, or who knows what. But I'm sure it happens.


----------



## Acebird

Oldtimer said:


> It is good though, seeing a new beekeeper taking it seriously enough to monitor and deal with mites if need be. So many, and I know some personally, start up with high ideals of being treatment free, and lose every bee. I sell replacement bees to them, sometimes every year to the same person. No point, they are not treating, but I'm doing it for them. And some of them leave the hobby disillusioned.


I have a lot of respect for you Oldtimer but maybe they should be getting their bees from someone else and their luck would change. If you are treating your bees and just selling them to the people that hope to be treatment free they might be starting out with two strikes against them.


----------



## Lauri

Here is my experience with mite treatments:
In my second year of beekeeping, spring of 2012, I purchased some packages and nucs brought in from California. Add the 7 hives I overwintered and started learning to rear queens. I made nucs all summer with daughters from the queens I had overwintered that were from the strongest hives.

In fall of 2012, I applied Hop Guard with some mixed results. I had some absconding issues, a few queens balled, but all in all, it cleaned up the fall hives to a reasonable level. I found Hop Guard to be difficult to apply in the very large hives as it has to be applied three times, once a week I believe, to be effective on mites that have been hiding under capped brood. I also feel I waited too long to treat. Should have done it right after the main flow was over, not in September. Several of the purchased nucs that had grown into larger hives died out right after the main flow. Although the health of these nucs when I bought them was questionable at best. 
All my hives started from purchased package bees and my home made nucs were thriving.

I successfully overwintered 55 hives if various sizes and strengths. We had a mild winter in 2012-2013 and many hives were somewhat actively rearing brood all winter. Remember, I am in a Northern Climate. My season generally is May-August.
Early brood rearing is a recipe for mite reproduction, so I planned to treat my hives in early spring, partly because I knew I had likely still had mites from my purchased bees the year before.. I had been dying to get my hands on some Apivar, but it was not approved for my State of Washington at that time.

Once it was approved this spring, I bought some right away. The interest I had in Apivar was it has a longer lasting potency that would last until the hive had complete turn over in the brood cycle. Meaning every mite in the hive hiding under the capped brood would eventually be exposed. A single application in the very large hives was all that was needed. Those were the hives I had the most problems with last year and were the most difficult to get into.

After using Hop Guard and having a few problems, I was cautious about the new product and did a test treatment on about 6 hives I suspected had some residual mites, although I did not really see any evidence of mites in the hive. These hives were just not doing much in the way of growth this spring. They were of various sized colonies.

After about two weeks into the treatment, even an imbecile could see these hives had a dramatic change. In a word, they were booming. A whole new level of activity and growth. I was quite impressed. Absolutely no side effects or negative impact on hive or queen what so ever. Remember, I had 50 other hives to compare them too. Natural day length and spring temp increases were taken into consideration.
I was sold and treated every hive on the place. My treatments were in place by May 1, removed as directed by manufacturer before honey supers were installed and main flow started. (Although I don't harvest my honey yet, I am using it to feed the bees during my apiary expansion and growth phase)
. I wasn't interested in monitering every hive, guessing what was going on and waiting until I had a problem. In went the treatments, up went my hive activity and we had a good start to the 2013 season.

My bees have grown from my own stock from 55 overwintered hives this spring to 85 large hives + 40 smaller nucs- this fall that are crazy strong, dripping with honey, heavy and healthy. 

I had purchased enough Apivar from Mann Lake to treat again this fall. $400. worth of treatment, still new in the package is sitting by my computer. But you know what? My first mite monitoring tests this week show almost nothing. My worst hive is Three mites on a slide in after a week. Not three mites per square inch, Three mites total..many of my 2012 overwintered double nucs ( Five deeps over five) are now in 10 frame deeps, 4 or 5 deeps high and FULL. I'm testing my very large hives first that have not had a brood break as far as I know. Hives I would expect to have a mite load of some kind. Every one is surprisingly clean so far. . 
So are my genetics from wild swarms and the Glenn VSH Carniolans kicking in? My intent for treating this spring was to rid my colonies of residual mites from their previous apiary and give my new VSH Daughters a fighting chance to show their stuff. These are now second and third generation queens from my survivor stock. 

I can't tell you for sure what the reason is. I am not on small cell ether. Black rite cell is what I use exclusively. I run fully screened open BB and top inner covers and do encourage good ventilation in the warmer months. Top and bottom entrances all winter.

I would love to be treatment free. But I am realistic and won't allow my stock and investment to dwindle to the point of ruin. I won't baby my hives ether. If some are weak..welfare bees they call them..they can die out. 

I will continue to monitor and do what is necessary to improve the natural genetic mite resistance and health of my hives. For now, I am amazed and thankful. Looks like for now, I will be storing my spare Apivar for another place and time.

And I am sold on Apivar if you feel it is necessary to treat your colony for mites. 

Some may not agree with this method. I am not saying it is the right or wrong thing to do. It is just what I chose to do with my limited experience. In a few years, I may change my methods, but for now I am pleased with the results.

I am a one girl show here and do all this myself. I expect a product to be cost effective, reasonably easy to apply and actually WORK as intended. I got that with Apivar.


----------



## PatBeek

Lauri said:


> My bees have grown from my own stock from 55 overwintered hives this spring to 85 large hives + 40 smaller nucs- this fall that are crazy strong, *dripping with honey*, heavy and healthy.



Is the honey chemical-free?

.


----------



## larrybeach

Lauri,
Thanks for sharing your experience. Very interesting detailed information, good luck with your bees.


----------



## sqkcrk

PatBeek said:


> Is the honey chemical-free?
> 
> .


Pat,
Did you read her whole Post? Do you know anything about Apivar? Are you serious?


----------



## frazzledfozzle

PatBeek you didn't fully answer the question posed a few posts ago you say you have 3 hives but you haven't told us how long you have had those hives?


----------



## sqkcrk

According to his/her bio she/he is busy building a top bar hive and has been thinking about beekeeping the last year.


----------



## RiodeLobo

t:
I must commend you folks on dealing well with the bombastic and asinine. Well done.

Dan (A non-proselytizing TX free beekeeper)


----------



## WLC

RiodeLobo said:


> t:
> I must commend you folks on dealing well with the bombastic and asinine. Well done.
> 
> Dan (A non-proselytizing TX free beekeeper)


Personal attack.
:no:

Booo!


----------



## David LaFerney

Lauri - your comment as usual is well thought and well spoken. You get high marks as a reliable source of information. Thanks. But I do wonder - with all you do - when do you sleep?

RiodeLobo - I like your attitude.


----------



## Oldtimer

Always like to hear a success story Lauri. You are doing this on your own? Better watch out you'll quickly have way too many bees!



Acebird said:


> Oldtimer but maybe they should be getting their bees from someone else and their luck would change. If you are treating your bees and just selling them to the people that hope to be treatment free they might be starting out with two strikes against them.


Point well taken Acebird and your reasoning is quite correct. And thanks for being so polite in the way you put it, kinda not used to that lately LOL 

However. We do not have the genetic diversity here that you do in the US. All bees here will only last 12 months if not treated and not split or whatever. Purchasers won't get bees anywhere else that do better than mine.

That's why NZ is running a VSH breeding program, to try to do something about this situation.

The sad thing is, people buy bees from me, some of them to set up top bars, that kind of thing. They have read and got all their information from overseas. I tell them they will need to treat the bees as needed, and their eyes kind of glaze over, they are thinking, oh yeah, one of those chemical swilling treaters I read about. They politely deflect anything I say on the subject, and take their bees, they know better. 

It cannot be emphasized enough that beekeeping is location dependant. Here, you treat, or you lose them. Maybe in my lifetime that will change, I hope so, there are quite a few people trying to change the situation.


----------



## PatBeek

sqkcrk said:


> Pat,h
> Did you read her whole Post? Do you know anything about Apivar? Are you serious?


I know now, and am even MORE repulsed:

http://www.isco.purdue.edu/pesticide/fifra18_labels/apivar_13_in_01.pdf


----------



## Oldtimer

RiodeLobo said:


> Dan (A non-proselytizing TX free beekeeper)


Ha Ha, that was pretty funny Dan, thanks for lightening up the thread a bit and adding some humor.


----------



## frazzledfozzle

sqkcrk said:


> According to his/her bio she/he is busy building a top bar hive and has been thinking about beekeeping the last year.


It constantly amazes and annoys me how many new beekeepers come here telling others how to keep bees treatment free and how they have treatment free bees after having them 6 months... the arrogance and ignorance is doing my head in


----------



## jim lyon

FWIW honey sampling from our 2012 crop was again free of any miticide or antibiotic residues. Also pollen sampling done by the state showed the same negative results. And no, my hives aren't treatment free.


----------



## David LaFerney

Jim - as per the OP what do you use? Personally I pay a lot of attention to what you commercial guys do.


----------



## jim lyon

Fall treatments of thymol followed by an OA dribble post brood. Then requeen each spring. The test results tell the story and our bees have suffered no collapses since we have been following this program. Nice healthy super organisms.


----------



## TheBuzz

I use NADA. It works great cuz you never have to apply it and there's nothing to worry about.


----------



## sqkcrk

PatBeek said:


> I know now, and am even MORE repulsed:
> 
> http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oGdXpceBVS9zsAoAlx.9w4;_ylu=X3oDMTE2MHEzOWIyBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMTgEY29sbwNzazEEdnRpZANQUkRVUzAxXzkx/SIG=12r57gmqk/EXP=1377167580/**http%3a//www.isco.purdue.edu/pesticide/fifra18_labels/apivar_13_in_01.pdf


Got any bees yet yourself?


----------



## wildbranch2007

sqkcrk said:


> Your neighbor will say the mites that killed their bees came from your hives, not vice versa. Really, you both had mites. Do mites really abandone ship and find a new home while a colony is dying?


the neighbors hives are all stacked up in the yard dead, while they were dying there was quite the large cloud of bees around them, If I had access to a flammable liquid that day I wouldn't have had a problem. wonder how the commercial guy on the next farm is doing, I have been able to inform all the other beeks in the area and they are all treating, probably have to treat again when the commercial guys hives start to fail. they may not abandon ship but they sure will hitch a ride while the hive is getting robbed out, I'm sure you have seen it, ask mike palmer his nuc yard got wiped out by a guy that had two hives across the street.


----------



## Oldtimer

Sounds like you've really got it down Jim.

The fall thymol treatment would be long gone by the time you take any honey next season, and the oxalic would be down to natural levels by then also.

Great system. :thumbsup:


----------



## jim lyon

Thanks OT but I have been doing this enough years to understand that you never really know what the next season may bring. It has worked for us for quite a few years though. I do consider our operation treatment free to at least some degree since its never really been spelled out on Beesource what length of time one must be treatment free to be "in the club" but I'm guessing 11 months a year, every year, probably isn't going to get me admitted. 
I suppose some would feel its "gaming the system" a bit to always be dealing with first year nucs but I figure so what. If the hives are strong and healthy and the honey is free of miticide residue then who is the loser?


----------



## sqkcrk

Residue free honey, but not really treatment free bee hives. Whatever difference that really makes. Having a pure product and plenty of it is what is important to your bottom line.

A friend of mine said that your program is one recommended by Randy Oliver, Apigaurd to knock the varroa down followed later by an OA dribble. Good job Jim. Thanks for reporting.

Aren't very many folks using MAQS?


----------



## beemandan

jim lyon said:


> I suppose some would feel its "gaming the system" a bit to always be dealing with first year nucs but I figure so what.


Understanding the life cycles of the host and parasite and using that knowledge hardly qualifies as gaming the system, in my opinion....although I'm sure you are right....there are those who'd say otherwise.


----------



## beemandan

RiodeLobo said:


> Dan (A non-proselytizing TX free beekeeper)


And a good man ya are for it.
That proselytizing is a good and appropriate word...isn't it? I wonder how many dictionaries got the dust blown off when it hit the forum.....


----------



## beemandan

PatBeek said:


> I know now, and am even MORE repulsed:


My ignore list has grown more in the past two days than in the past year....go figure.


----------



## sqkcrk

lol 

Seems like there's an appropriate quote from Jeff Foxworthy's friend whose name I can't recall right now. I bet you know what I mean.


----------



## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> Residue free honey, but not really treatment free bee hives. Whatever difference that really makes. Having a pure product and plenty of it is what is important to your bottom line.
> 
> A friend of mine said that your program is one recommended by Randy Oliver, Apigaurd to knock the varroa down followed later by an OA dribble. Good job Jim. Thanks for reporting.
> 
> Aren't very many folks using MAQS?


I swapped a few e-mails with Randy a number of years ago when we first started doing this and remember his comment was that it sounds like a good concept and that he was surprised it isn't used more. At the time the discussion was more about using the 3 week brood break as a window to treat with OA, something I haven't found is necessary in recent years, after sampling.
I dont know of many using MAQS. I know it's supposed to be "safe" to use year around but I think to use it in the heat of summer (well maybe not this summer) is always going to be risky for queens and to expect it to be real effective when they hives are stacked up pretty high is probably expecting too much as well. It all sounds pretty risky and disruptive to a hive that's trying to raise a honey crop. Just my opinion, though, and not based on any experience.


----------



## Daniel Y

David LaFerney said:


> For example the OP seems to be thinking about treating his bees sometime in the near future - in my area that process probably should have started weeks ago - or at least should be well under way by now.
> 
> The OP is not in your area, he is in Washington. There calendar is very similar to mine. And the time to treat in this area is now. maybe the later end of it but we are still in the window for doing so. I completed the late season treatments on my hives yesterday.
> 
> I use OA by the way. Seems to work just fine so far.


----------



## sqkcrk

Good analysis Jim. A friend of mine is using it here in NY right now. He used it last year at this time too. We'll see.


----------



## PatBeek

sqkcrk said:


> Got any bees yet yourself?


I have three active hives. Perhaps you should visit my website to see what I'm up to. Also, I have two untreated young boys who rarely ever go to the doctor. Most kids are constantly at the doctor with ear infections, allergies, asthma, eczema - and also many now have cancer, arthritis, diabetes and many other serious chronic conditions. Just so happens, those treatments for kids have quadrupled since the eighties. 
I'll pass on those treatments for my kids and any chemical treatments for my bees. It's not too hard to figure out.

Also, there's a saying: "We should have a hundred thousand people with one hive instead of one person having a hundred thousand hives."............or words similar to that. I can't recall to whom that quote is credited.


----------



## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> Fall treatments of thymol followed by an OA dribble post brood. Then requeen each spring. The test results tell the story and our bees have suffered no collapses since we have been following this program. Nice healthy super organisms.


Jim who am I to say anything about your operation, but you know me.

How can you say that you have a nice healthy super organism when you bomb the hive and start with a new queen every year? I think what you have is a nice healthy business plan that is working great for you.

The saying is if you don't treat your hive your bees will die. So you want me to treat the hive and basically start a new one. What is the difference. The only difference I see is I have an outside chance that the hive will live. For a backyard beek I think that is a better option. I understand that your way is a better option for you. I do not see it as saving the hive, colony or whatever. You start new every year.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> The saying is if you don't treat your hive your bees will die. So you want me to treat the hive and basically start a new one.


I am confident that _Jim Lyon_ did NOT tell you / "want you" to do anything! 

You are free to do whatever you think best ....
:gh:


Jim simply explained what _he_ does, and was responsive to the OP's question and thread title!
:lookout:


----------



## WLC

I think that it's fair to say that most beekeepers are constrained by law and by their obligation to follow best practices as a business to treat.

However, there's going to be some big differences in the how and why.

OA is one of those treatments, that although it's common practice, I'm not sure that it's 'official' in most states.

It's the off-label issue.


----------



## cg3

WLC said:


> most beekeepers are constrained by law


It worked so well with pot, and speed limits, and crosswalks, etc.


----------



## jim lyon

Acebird said:


> Jim who am I to say anything about your operation, but you know me.
> 
> How can you say that you have a nice healthy super organism when you bomb the hive and start with a new queen every year? I think what you have is a nice healthy business plan that is working great for you.
> 
> The saying is if you don't treat your hive your bees will die. So you want me to treat the hive and basically start a new one. What is the difference.


Actually I agree Brian. My criteria for judging are, does it appear healthy, does it produce and does it have good population at the end of the honey and brooding seasons. Probably about the same criteria most everyone else who keeps bees uses.


----------



## WLC

Is OA section 18 in any state?

Seriously folks.


----------



## Beelosopher

WLC said:


> Is OA section 18 in any state?
> 
> Seriously folks.


I think there are some key reasons why it isn't section 18 though (they start and end with $$). Mainly you can't make a buck selling it comparatively to other treatment solutions. 

A similar thing happened with stevia, it was not approved by the FDA for years because it was too cheap (meanwhile it was being used for something like 50 years in other countries where it grew like grass - Brazil was a key area if I am not mistaken). Although when coke and pepsi came up with proprietary versions of low calorie sweeteners utilizing stevia, brand named truvia and purevia, respectively, it miraculously became safe and FDA approved.

I agree it should be vetted and sold at a certain purity to help regulate it (but finding high purity really isn't an issue now). I do think we would all be remiss to take it off that table as a viable treatment. There are some very promising attributes for it as a treatment.


----------



## RiodeLobo

PatBeek said:


> Also, I have two untreated young boys who rarely ever go to the doctor. Most kids are constantly at the doctor with ear infections, allergies, asthma, eczema - and also many now have cancer, arthritis, diabetes and many other serious chronic conditions. Just so happens, those treatments for kids have quadrupled since the eighties.
> I'll pass on those treatments for my kids and any chemical treatments for my bees. It's not too hard to figure out.


I agree that there is over medication in our society, mostly with psychological treatments. However under-medication is a significant risk as well.

Herbert and Catherine Schaible: Second child dies after parents refuse medical treatment
Read more: http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/nation...arents-refuse-medical-treatment#ixzz2chtIhqs9


----------



## D Semple

Over the top Reo in regard to PatBeek


----------



## Beelosopher

PatBeek said:


> I have three active hives. Perhaps you should visit my website to see what I'm up to. Also, I have two untreated young boys who rarely ever go to the doctor. Most kids are constantly at the doctor with ear infections, allergies, asthma, eczema - and also many now have cancer, arthritis, diabetes and many other serious chronic conditions. Just so happens, those treatments for kids have quadrupled since the eighties.
> I'll pass on those treatments for my kids and any chemical treatments for my bees. It's not too hard to figure out.
> 
> Also, there's a saying: "We should have a hundred thousand people with one hive instead of one person having a hundred thousand hives."............or words similar to that. I can't recall to whom that quote is credited.


I think you really understand the reason for your lack of credibility (lack of experience). Specifically because you are dead set on not answering a question that has been asked of you 3 or more times (how long have you been tx free?). 

It isn't hard to trace your history on this forum and deduct from your comments you haven't been at this long enough to offer credible advice in this area. In the least many would want to see at least 3-5 years of tx free success.


----------



## RiodeLobo

Back to TREATMENTS.

Does anyone have experience with home made treatments? And by home made I mean locally sourced, with the ability to personally harvest and refine the raw materials.


----------



## David LaFerney

_Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
Is OA section 18 in any state?

Seriously folks._

Is powdered sugar?

I've talked to an official head state inspector about this, and what Beelosopher said kind of sums it up. It isn't their main function, they don't have time or resources to address it, and so a kind of don't ask / don't tell unofficial policy is in effect. They recognize that it's safe, cheap, effective, and widely available so of course it isn't technically legal (as a mitacide if you want to go the really technical route.) It is a little like pot in that when the smart money figures out how to make a tidy profit off of it it will probably soon come to your neighborhood.

The EPA may look at it different if they were to see the opportunity to put a particularly big fish on the stringer. Just a guess.


----------



## WLC

I do recall reading studies on the effectiveness of FA, OA and LA in mite treatments. I don't recall if it was FA or OA that was the most effective however.

Regardless, why not just stick to MAQIIs and/or Amitraz?

As for the repeated references to 'pot' w/ regards to OA: are you trying to tell me that it makes beekeepers high? You know, a 'treatment' of abuse?

That would be some truly 'dark underbelly' stuff.


----------



## Beelosopher

WLC said:


> I do recall reading studies on the effectiveness of FA, OA and LA in mite treatments. I don't recall if it was FA or OA that was the most effective however.
> 
> Regardless, why not just stick to MAQIIs and/or Amitraz?


Price is a big one for many. You can get OA on the cheap and from what I have read... it seems to be versatile and effective.


----------



## cg3

$.06 per dose


----------



## cg3

Sorry, bad math. $.03 per dose, $.09 per hive for OAV.


----------



## cg3

WLC said:


> As for the repeated references to 'pot' w/ regards to OA: are you trying to tell me that it makes beekeepers high? You know, a 'treatment' of abuse?


No, it was in reference to how law-abiding we all are.


----------



## PatBeek

Beelosopher said:


> It isn't hard to trace your history on this forum and deduct from your comments you haven't been at this long enough to offer credible advice in this area. In the least many would want to see at least 3-5 years of tx free success.


Interesting. Maybe when I have enough dead hives under my belt I can claim to be qualified?

.


----------



## David LaFerney

Nope. Although it might be a "Bridge drug."


----------



## PatBeek

.

I just noticed that the Apivar link I posted earlier didn't work.

So here's a link to the label and the screenshot.

I don't know about you all, but it looks very disturbing to me. But I'm crazy. I know.

http://www.isco.purdue.edu/pesticide/fifra18_labels/apivar_13_in_01.pdf

ARE YOU PEOPLE SERIOUS !?!?!?

If I'm considered "un-credible" and "loony" for my stance on all this, then GOOD !!! I wear it like a badge-of-honor:


----------



## jim lyon

I believe all chemicals applied to bees should be used with respect and caution. I don't use Amitraz but does anyone here have any evidence that Apivar used in accordance with label instructions leaves any honey residues?


----------



## PatBeek

jim lyon said:


> ... does anyone here have any evidence that Apivar used in accordance with label instructions leaves any honey residues?



Yes, the label itself.


----------



## Beelosopher

jim lyon said:


> I believe all chemicals applied to bees should be used with respect and caution. I don't use Amitraz but does anyone here have any evidence that Apivar used in accordance with label instructions leaves any honey residues?


I've never used it either. 

However the company website states "it leaves no significant residues in hive products; and, it is convenient and easy to use.” Not sure what "significant" means.




PatBeek said:


> Interesting. Maybe when I have enough dead hives under my belt I can claim to be qualified?
> 
> .


Still haven't answered the question. Honesty can be real be a real tough pill, and I can see you aren't willing to swallow it. I moving on.


----------



## RiodeLobo

PatBeek said:


> Interesting. Maybe when I have enough dead hives under my belt I can claim to be qualified?


No, but when you have been able to successfully keep treatment free colonies alive for a significant amount of time you will. Personally, my colony crash happened the second winter, where 7/8 colonies died out.


----------



## sqkcrk

PatBeek said:


> I have three active hives. Perhaps you should visit my website to see what I'm up to.


I don't spend time on websites I have no initial interest in. Perhaps you should update and expand your Bio and Stats on your beesource Profile Page.

Congrats on getting some bees. I hope you get more perspective as you gain experience. I don't expect it to change your fundamental point of view. But maybe after a decade or two you might understand that things are not always so cut and dried or black and white.


----------



## sqkcrk

Beelosopher said:


> I think there are some key reasons why it isn't section 18 though (they start and end with $$). Mainly you can't make a buck selling it comparatively to other treatment solutions.
> 
> A similar thing happened with stevia, it was not approved by the FDA for years because it was too cheap (meanwhile it was being used for something like 50 years in other countries where it grew like grass - Brazil was a key area if I am not mistaken). Although when coke and pepsi came up with proprietary versions of low calorie sweeteners utilizing stevia, brand named truvia and purevia, respectively, it miraculously became safe and FDA approved.
> 
> I agree it should be vetted and sold at a certain purity to help regulate it (but finding high purity really isn't an issue now). I do think we would all be remiss to take it off that table as a viable treatment. There are some very promising attributes for it as a treatment.


OA is not a controlled substance. Neither is formic acid. If I understand things correctly.


----------



## cg3

MAQS is formic. Somebody's controlling something.


----------



## sqkcrk

RiodeLobo said:


> Back to TREATMENTS.
> 
> Does anyone have experience with home made treatments? And by home made I mean locally sourced, with the ability to personally harvest and refine the raw materials.


Cutting rhubarb and placing the leaves and stalks between brood supers doesn't work as an OA Treatment.

Planting mint doesn't work as a TM treatment.

Cutting cedar boughs and distilling cedar oil will benefit your pocketbook selling the oil than it would fumagating it into hives as a mite treatment.

Setting nucs or hives on top of ant hills does damage to your equipment and doesn't work as a formic acid treatment.

I'll think up more later.


----------



## sqkcrk

David LaFerney said:


> _Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
> Is OA section 18 in any state?
> 
> Seriously folks._
> 
> Is powdered sugar?
> 
> I've talked to an official head state inspector about this, and what Beelosopher said kind of sums it up. It isn't their main function, they don't have time or resources to address it, and so a kind of don't ask / don't tell unofficial policy is in effect. They recognize that it's safe, cheap, effective, and widely available so of course it isn't technically legal (as a mitacide if you want to go the really technical route.) It is a little like pot in that when the smart money figures out how to make a tidy profit off of it it will probably soon come to your neighborhood.
> 
> The EPA may look at it different if they were to see the opportunity to put a particularly big fish on the stringer. Just a guess.


Other than AFB, State Apiary Inspection Programs don't regulate what you put in your hives. What comes out in your honey may be regulated by State Food Safety Inspectors though.


----------



## sqkcrk

PatBeek said:


> Yes, the label itself.


Dee Lusby has a site you should join. Please!!


----------



## Beelosopher

sqkcrk said:


> OA is not a controlled substance. Neither is formic acid. If I understand things correctly.


WLC brought up section 18. My very general understanding of the EPA's section 18 was that it was used to regulate insecticides. Some are suggesting that OA would be considered an insecticide due to the fact that it is being used to kill mites. 

Are you saying that it should be another group, the FDA? In either case I would suggest a similar argument.


----------



## sqkcrk

Beelosopher said:


> However the company website states "it leaves no significant residues in hive products; and, it is convenient and easy to use.” Not sure what "significant" means.


So called Federal Standards are often stated in ppm or ppm. I have seen reports on honey samples which detected fluvalinate ate levels one thousand times lower than the acceptable level or Standard. Maybe that what they mean. So low a trace amount that it is almost undectable.


----------



## sqkcrk

RiodeLobo said:


> No, but when you have been able to successfully keep treatment free colonies alive for a significant amount of time you will. Personally, my colony crash happened the second winter, where 7/8 colonies died out.


I know a number of beekeepers here in these parts that have had similar such results. Your experience is not uncommon.


----------



## sqkcrk

cg3 said:


> MAQS is formic. Somebody's controlling something.


Canadians.


----------



## sqkcrk

Beelosopher said:


> WLC brought up section 18. My very general understanding of the EPA's section 18 was that it was used to regulate insecticides. Some are suggesting that OA would be considered an insecticide due to the fact that it is being used to kill mites.
> 
> Are you saying that it should be another group, the FDA? In either case I would suggest a similar argument.


No, but I would say that it is not currently regulated and it should not be. How many ppm OA are we going to find acceptable in our Spinach? Who is going to see that it doesn't exceed or fall that standard. OA occurs naturally in FOOD.

Section 18 is a Special Use Permit. Each State has to apply for a Section 18 when some new or reformulated product comes on the market. That is why NY had trouble getting a Section 18 for MAQS. Because we already had a formic acid product which had already been approved for general use, by the same Company no less. So the NYS DEC (Dept of Environmental Conservation) dragged it's feet on passing on the Request for a Section 18 to the proper authority.


----------



## Oldtimer

Here's how it works in my country, which I think may be similar.

Registered pesticides have a label. That label has to be complied with by law. (Or, it represents the law, to be precise). So if it is intended for use in a beehive you can do that if it's on the label. If it is not intended to be used in a beehive, then using it in a beehive is "off label", ie, illegal.

Products not classed as an insecticide and do not have label instructions re use in beehives, may be used in beehives, oxalic acid is one powdered sugar is one.

There are some substances that you are not allowed to have in your honey in higher than certain amounts. Oxalic acid, and powdered sugar, for example. But you can do whatever you want with your hive, long as those substances are not in your honey at higher than acceptable levels.

Then there are some substances specifically banned (in my country) that you cannot put in a beehive, such as antibiotics, that is regardless of whether it shows in honey, you just can't do it full stop.


----------



## sqkcrk

Many things have been used in our "War on Mites". Many of them aren't generally considered pesticides because they either are food or are used in food or occur in food or are food additives.

Case in point. Back in the old days, ancient times, 1988 here in NY, Dr. Gard Otis of Guelph, Ontario asked the help of NYS Dept. of Ag&Mkts in a study he wanted to do to determine the effects of Menthol on Tracheal Mites (TM). So, we located a beekeeper who had a number of apiaries along the St. Lawrence Seaway who was willing to give Otis permission to sample hives for TM, to apply Menthol infused candybars (not chocolate bars), and then to monitor the results.

Menthol has no recommended pesticide use and is not regulated. Neither does sugar. They didn't seem to work. Yet you can still buy menthol crystal packs from Bee Supply Catalogs.

Gard Otis wanted to do this study because he forsaw the migration of TM into Canada from colonies near to or on the Border. Since then a number of joint efforts have occured. I enjoyed my part. Got to meet some interesting folks and got to see some sampling techniques that I still wonder why they aren't standardly used.


----------



## Beelosopher

sqkcrk said:


> No, but I would say that it is not currently regulated and it should not be. How many ppm OA are we going to find acceptable in our Spinach? Who is going to see that it doesn't exceed or fall that standard. OA occurs naturally in FOOD.
> 
> Section 18 is a Special Use Permit. Each State has to apply for a Section 18 when some new or reformulated product comes on the market. That is why NY had trouble getting a Section 18 for MAQS. Because we already had a formic acid product which had already been approved for general use, by the same Company no less. So the NYS DEC (Dept of Environmental Conservation) dragged it's feet on passing on the Request for a Section 18 to the proper authority.


Thanks for the clarification Mark. The main, if only, interest I would have in seeing a standard set for "what" purity of OA and dosage for beehive use is to alleviate my ignorance of the product/use. I have read in many places you should strive for a 99.xyz percent pure OA (readily avaiklable on ebay by the way). Then I hear some use wood bleach from home depot (no purity rating is listed?). In either case both might work famously, but I lack experience. There is a bad part of me that likes to aim small and get devilish detail. Sometimes, that just isn't needed, and this might be one of those cases. 

It seems to me that regulation may not be needed - but I don't fully understand all the angles yet.


----------



## sqkcrk

I understand. If the product is sold as OA it is OA and I don't know that a purity standard is necessary. A bag of sugar has more than Sugar in it, but it is still sold as Suagr. The other stuff has been deemed inconsequential. You can buy Ice Cream w/ no Ingredients list because the formula for Ice Cream is standard. Any deviation very far from the standard and it isn't Ice Cream.

Ask around, ask fatbeeman and others, but I don't think that there is a whit of difference between eBay OA and Hardware Store OA. They will both work.

I know Michael Palmer used to do OA Fumigation for a number of years. I think he stopped using it. PM and find out the pros and cons from a conscientious beekeeper. He's pretty smart about a lot of things.

Huh, Michael Palmer and Jim Lyons on a panel at a beekeepers mtng just came to mind. That I'd like to see.


----------



## WLC

There's one problem: Oxalic Acid is considered to be toxic, while Formic acid is a food additive.

Try and remember that you're using a pretty pure chemical and not eating parsley.

I think that would be a pretty good explanation why FA is in MAQs and not OA.

FA is food grade. OA isn't.


----------



## DPBsbees

Randy Oliver has a very nice discussion on his site about oxalic acid. He talks about the differences between pure oxalic acid, and wood bleach. I think most of everyone's questions can be answered by reading the info on his site. I recommend that those considering it read his info, and then come to their own conclusion.


----------



## Oldtimer

WLC,

They are both toxic at high enough concentration, formic acid more so than oxalic acid. However they also are both naturally occurring substances that are in our food, the way nature designed it.

Formic acid is in MAQS simply because it is volatile at the temperatures in a beehive and that is how MAQS works. Oxalic acid is not volatile at the temperatures in a beehive, if you put in a MAQS pad loaded with oxalic acid instead of formic acid, it wouldn't work.


----------



## RiodeLobo

sqkcrk said:


> Cutting rhubarb and placing the leaves and stalks between brood supers doesn't work as an OA Treatment.
> 
> Planting mint doesn't work as a TM treatment.
> 
> Cutting cedar boughs and distilling cedar oil will benefit your pocketbook selling the oil than it would fumagating it into hives as a mite treatment.
> 
> Setting nucs or hives on top of ant hills does damage to your equipment and doesn't work as a formic acid treatment.
> 
> I'll think up more later.


Pouring a IPA into your sugar syrup doesn't work. 


However I was thinking more in terms of distilling EO or refining the hop beta acids.


----------



## WLC

The two words I saw on the msds for OA were, Poison! Danger!...
I'm not sure I want to look at the msds for FA.


----------



## sqkcrk

DPBsbees said:


> Randy Oliver has a very nice discussion on his site about oxalic acid. He talks about the differences between pure oxalic acid, and wood bleach. I think most of everyone's questions can be answered by reading the info on his site. I recommend that those considering it read his info, and then come to their own conclusion.


That would be more informed than my knowledge.


----------



## sqkcrk

RiodeLobo said:


> Pouring a IPA into your sugar syrup doesn't work.
> 
> 
> However I was thinking more in terms of distilling EO or refining the hop beta acids.


I'm a pay someone who knows how to make what I don't and do what I do know how to do sort of guy. Maybe you are a do it yourselfer. Go for it.

Do what you do best and pay for the rest.


----------



## JWChesnut

RiodeLobo said:


> Pouring a IPA into your sugar syrup doesn't work.
> 
> 
> However I was thinking more in terms of distilling EO or refining the hop beta acids.


((from my older post elsewhere)).
I was stymied by the "applicator license" requirement to purchase HopGuard in California.
I decided to investigate "homebrewing" of a analog. Has anyone else attempted this?

The patent describing HopGuard is available. COMPOSITIONS AND METHODS FOR CONTROLLING A HONEY BEE PARASITIC MITE
Gene Probasco http://www.google.com/patents?id=NV3OAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

The patent is worth reading, even if you have access to the commercial formulation. (Unfortunately, the patent was prepared by a clever lawyer who sought to broaden the claims, so the practical knowledge is buried under an expansion of duplicative but abandoned methods).

It is my understanding that HopGuard consists of 16% (by weight) beta-acid hop extract stabilized by converting to "soap" or Potassium salt and coating a cardboard strip. It appears the agent kills mites either by contact or by consumption into the bee's body fluid. I am not certain, but (from the patent) it appears the extract is made attractive to the bees by adding sugar.

Mr. Probasco tested a broad array of hop extract mixture against mites and honeybees (see Table 1). Three of his replicate tests had honeybee mortality: 5% Beta Acid on filter paper had 20% mortality after 22 hours, and 30% alpha-acid in water had 33% mortality. An isomorhized version of alpha-acid had 7% mortaility. Since higher and lower dosages of alpha and beta acid had no detectable mortality, the reason for the bee death is not clear, but Probasco did NOT do replicate experiments. His method were to introduce bees to a filter paper lined petri dish, an easily replicated test for a home-brewed substitute.

Hops have three classes of active compounds: alpha-acids, beta-acids and hop oils. Alpha acids are used to provide "bitter" flavor and anti-microbial impact. Beta-acids are not bitter and have the same anti-microbial usage, but accompany the complex hop oils used to impart flavor. In modern industrial brewing, Alpha oil is extracted using liquid CO2, leaving behind the "base extract" (or the beta-acid and hop mixture). The base extract can be further refined to separate the hop oils from the beta-acid. Hop Oil can be injected into the finished beer at bottling to highten the flavor (called dry hopping in traditional brewing).

All three classes of compounds (and complex magnesium salt isomerizations) are available at the industrial scale. (footnote: beer is light sensitive, and the isomerizations were created to allow beer to be sold in clear rather than brown bottles without going "skunky" from sunlight exposure). Beta-acid is mostly a by-product. Beta acid is described as an addition to Sugar Beet processing to prevent Listeria micro-organism from growing. An interesting Japanese patent mixes Hops and Wasabi mustard extract to protect pickled vegetables from decay. Hops and Rosemary extract are sprayed on raw meat to prevent micro-organisims, oxidation and discoloring.

At the hobby level, online availabiltiy of unseparated extract of "Amarillo" hops is offered at 5ml (in syringes) for $1.99. Since dosage of HopGuard is 3.84 g per hive, the 5ml syringes would offer (very roughly) equivalent dosage but in an alpha-acid dominated combination. Hop extract are about 50% alpha, 30% beta, and 10% hop oil (depending on the cultivar). "Aroma oil" is also available (2 oz bottles) but this appears to be only the hop oil with the virtually all the active alpha and beta acids removed. Naturapathic herb outlets have water or alcohol extracts of "hops" in 1 to 4 oz bottles, but these have no accompanying analysis, so the concentration is guestimate. Raw or pelleted hops (in a dizzying variety of cultivars) are widely available. Pelleted hops are just cold ground and pressed hop cones. They could be extracted by boiling or placed in an expresso or french press coffeemaker. Pelleted hops are about 15% (by weight) active compounds, extraction values are low. Price is about $5/oz or $20/lb. Extraction of a pound of 15% product with a yield of 25% would generate 17 g of mixed acids, or about $1/gram. I suppose a NaOH solution might raise extractions, followed by a vinegar/ascorbic acid neutralization. This would allow a whole or pellet product to be roughly cost competitive.

The commercial product uses the beta-acid salt. At the hobbyist level, some cultivars of hops have higher "beta-acid" ratio than others, and some cultivars have a higher total compound. Modern selections are much higher in total compounds than historic varieties. Names showing high or relatively high beta level are: Mt Hood, Cascade, Crystal, Liberty. Names with exceptionally high total oil/acid are: Columbus, Galena, and a number of the new introductions.

The raw extract of hop acids and oils are unmixable in water or immiscable and are unstable. Industrially, a metal salt is added to produce a "soap" product that is dissolvable in solution and is stable on drying over the longterm. Patents describe the use of strong Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) or Lye (NaOH) to make the mixture alkaline (ph 9-11) followed by addition of acid (typically sulfuric) to neutralize and spray drying to create a powder.

Other patents (for use of hops in human foods) describe the addition of ascorbic acid or rosemary extract to provide anti-oxidant donors to protect the hop-oil from denaturing. Propolyene Glycol is often the base solution for hop oil mixtures. 

Lecithin is mentioned only in passing in the patents. However, this is used frequently in "Bee" recipes to emulsify fats and oils with sugar solutions. For a home-brew approach using lecithin as an easily available emulsifying agent to make hop-extract mixable seems a good approach.

It is not clear to me from the patents whether the toxicity of hop oils during in ingestion by bees was addressed. The miticide property may come from both external grooming of the oil/acid/soap compound or ingestion. It may be a treatment that is more oriented to external spreading than ingestion will be safer.

One inexpensive approach may be to make a water/lectithin/sugar solution and boil pellets or whole cones in the solution and feed the mess of pellets/sugar to the bees in a feeding tray. I would want to perform the 100 bees in a petri dish toxicity assay on this.

Further information can be found in the patents.
COMPOSITIONS AND METHODS FOR CONTROLLING A HONEY BEE PARASITIC MITE
Gene Probasco
http://www.google.com/patents?id=NV3OAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false


METHOD FOR PREPARING STABLE HOP POWDER
Naoto Yamaguchi et al
http://www.google.com/patents?id=o0...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Process for producing inorganic salts of hop acids
Kevin K. Madsen et al
http://www.google.com/patents?id=8k...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Hop beta acid compositions for use in food products
Dennis L. Seman et al
http://www.google.com/patents?id=Gj...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false


Solid salts of hop acids
John P. Maye et al
http://www.google.com/patents?id=PM...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Feeds containing hop acids and uses thereof as supplements in animal feeds
Francis L. Rigby et al
http://www.google.com/patents?id=rk...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Antimicrobial compositions comprising hop acid alkali salts and uses thereof
Mitsunori Ono et al
http://www.google.com/patents?id=Vr...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false


----------



## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> Probably about the same criteria most everyone else who keeps bees uses.


Most, probably you are right. The eccentric few, no way. I really don't know what the numbers are but the "most" are competing with China. I was hoping you would answer my question though, "What is the difference". I don't see any do you?


----------



## Acebird

JWChesnut said:


> It is my understanding that HopGuard consists of 16% (by weight) beta-acid hop extract stabilized by converting to "soap" or Potassium salt and coating a cardboard strip.


We grow hops in our yard. Could I be treating my hives and not know it? Hey, it is their choice. I drink the beer from Saranac. They don't ask for any of our hops. Maybe my bad boy bees are visiting their waste products before they sell it to the state for salting the roads. I wonder...


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Maybe my bad *boy bees* are visiting their waste products before they sell it to the state for salting the roads. I wonder...


_Boy _bee foragers? :scratch: Perhaps you have been consuming a few too many _hop _products yourself ... :lookout:


----------



## jim lyon

PatBeek said:


> Yes, the label itself.


So exactly where on the label does it state that using Apivar in accordance with label directions results in chemical residue of the honey?


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## sqkcrk

I think it must be on the back.


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## Moccasin

burns375 said:


> Excellent philosophy. Me too. Started with good feral black bee stock. My buddies italians from Kelley's have more mites.


I haven't seen pure black bees since the Varroa mites came here in the 90's. No one sells them anywhere.I was giving up hope. Some old timers argue that the black bees are actually natives since the Italians were imported here in 1857.I am using Apiguard Thymol gel. Please take pictures and BREED those black bees! I have black queens but always too many yellow bees in the mix.Sure would like to see them in the trees like they used to be.


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## burns375

Well they arn't pure black bees, the queens are black/brown, more like a dark walnut woodgrain. They are mixed who knows what genetics, heinz 57. I still see mites, but not a whole lot. Kinda like SHB, the mites are around but not in huge numbers. Every once and a while is see a bee or two with a deformed wing, most look healthy. This is only the 2nd year with this feral stock so well see what happens come spring. I think climate/Location has alot to do with control, along with any genetic disposition.

I don't believe honey bees are native to the Americas much like many of the fruit crops honey bees pollinate here. They were brought over during exploration as early as the 1600's. 

I always seem to forget the camera, if I remember Ill take a few pics of the bee yard and queens.


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## sqkcrk

Darkness may come from Carniolan genetics, not The German Black bee. There were no Native Honey Bee in the area spoken about earlier before 1857. Apis mellifera came over w/ the European settlers.


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## WWW

I have often wondered how the settlers kept bees on those small wooden ships during the long trip here. I doubt they discussed treatments on the way over.


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## sqkcrk

They transported skep hives during the cold months of the year. Over the end of the year 1619 and the start on 1620. "By this ship and the Discovery ..." The Discovery is the name of one of the ships transporting all sorts of agricultural plants and animals, including conies(rabbits). I didn't find the name of the other ship. Bees didn't travel into outer space on the shuttle Discovery to my disappointment. That would have been a cool coincidence.

Skeps were shipped to Australia in barrels packed w/ ice. I'm sure it is more complex than that statement makes it seem. But basically that's my understanding.


----------



## WWW

Thanks, that is an interesting bit of history, very interesting indeed.


----------



## sqkcrk

I had a slide show and script all worked up and presented it at EAS the year it was at Williamsburg,VA back in 1984(?). I had a lot of fun delving into the Colonial Williamsburg Librarys finding what I could about Bees and Beekeeping related things from the 17th and 18th Centuries.

Around 1720 the Governor of the Colony of Virginia included Beeswax in his report of Gross Colonial Product of Virginia. It was at the bottom of thge list, but economically important enough to be included below Coal, Tobacco, Lumber, and other things I don't recall right now.


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## WWW

With the use of Skeps for beekeeping in this time period there was probably a good bit of wax produced and used in the colonies for many things including lighting, wax was no doubt a valuable commodity.


----------



## ryan

Apivar seemed to work this spring. Wow, Amatraz strips still work after a 25 year absence from the market. Who'd a thunk it. An oldie but a goodie I guess. 

Formic acid works in the fall, but I'm up on the Canadian border where it's cool and dry in the fall. 

Like Jim, I cheat. New nucs with new queens every spring. And we kick start them with an East TX pollen/honey flow. The Cheating seems to help no matter what treatment is used. Cheating might be as important as treating. 

ryan


----------



## sqkcrk

WWW said:


> With the use of Skeps for beekeeping in this time period there was probably a good bit of wax produced and used in the colonies for many things including lighting, wax was no doubt a valuable commodity.


It was an export product. Exported to Madiera.


----------



## CLICKBANGBANG

I see this thread brought out all big opinions. 

Looks like I may not be treating this year. I bought a small bucket of MAQS, but can't find a hive with mite loads over my thresholds. 

I'm kinda pissed. I wanted to treat a hive to study the affect of treatment on the bees and the mite kill.


----------



## Mbeck

sqkcrk said:


> I had a slide show and script all worked up and presented it at EAS the year it was at Williamsburg,VA back in 1984(?). I had a lot of fun delving into the Colonial Williamsburg Librarys finding what I could about Bees and Beekeeping related things from the 17th and 18th Centuries.
> 
> Around 1720 the Governor of the Colony of Virginia included Beeswax in his report of Gross Colonial Product of Virginia. It was at the bottom of thge list, but economically important enough to be included below Coal, Tobacco, Lumber, and other things I don't recall right now.


This is interesting and I suppose slightly related to treatments so I will post a link I found

http://www.orsba.org/htdocs/download/Honey Bees Across America.html


"total amount of beeswax exported from Virginia in 1730 (just over one hundred years since the first import of honey bees to North America) was 156 quintals, equal to 156,000 kilograms, or about 343,900 pounds"

"This ship" may have been either the Bona Nova or the Hopewell, I bet there is a good chance that a bee source member helped unload it and will remember!!


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## Pioneer

jim lyon said:


> Fall treatments of thymol followed by an OA dribble post brood. Then requeen each spring. The test results tell the story and our bees have suffered no collapses since we have been following this program. Nice healthy super organisms.


Jim, 

Based on what sounds like great results over serveral years and over a large number of colonies, I'm intestested in knowing the specifics of your fall treamtments. Would you mind sharing the specific products you use, sources for those products, treatment amounts for each product, application methods, and timing?

thanks,
Steven


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## sqkcrk

Thanks Matt. Boy oh, what I coulda done w/ the internet back in 1984.


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## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> _Boy _bee foragers? :scratch:


A bad boy can be a female. Your not to hip are you?


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## sqkcrk

I don't know what is common in your lingo, but I am not familiar w/ anyone calling Girls "bad boys". "Guys" yes, but not "bad boys". Maybe I need to get out more. Maybe not.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> A bad boy can be a female. Your not to hip are you?


I'm _not _hip to _*androgynous *_bees! 

:ws:

I _am _hip to the difference between "to" and "too". And "two", for that matter! :gh:
And for the record, I have _two hips._ :lpf:And _plenty _of animated smileys! :lookout:


----------



## jim lyon

ryan said:


> Like Jim, I cheat. New nucs with new queens every spring. And we kick start them with an East TX pollen/honey flow. The Cheating seems to help no matter what treatment is used. Cheating might be as important as treating.
> 
> ryan


Better to be "cheatin" than "treaten". I like it. Sounds like one of those sad country songs.


----------



## rwurster

I use oxalic acid in the fall after whatever honey i'm going to take has been removed, but only on the colonies that need to be treated for a heavy mite load. I have noticed that the hives that get the OA don't spot the outside of the hive with waste as much as the hives that haven't been treated do when the weather warms up enough for cleansing flights. Without a doubt you will need a respirator for this kind of treatment.


----------



## Huntingstoneboy

Been watching this thread a while...being new I did not want to treat, however I ended up dosing 9 of 16 hives with 25g of apiguard on mon. I plan on doing 2 more treatments 10 days apart. My question is, will this be enough? Jim Lyon? i am assuming you tried apiguard w/o the OA and it didn't work? Any thoughts welcomed?


----------



## jim lyon

Huntingstoneboy said:


> Been watching this thread a while...being new I did not want to treat, however I ended up dosing 9 of 16 hives with 25g of apiguard on mon. I plan on doing 2 more treatments 10 days apart. My question is, will this be enough? Jim Lyon? i am assuming you tried apiguard w/o the OA and it didn't work? Any thoughts welcomed?


These are the thymol strips we have been using.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/thymol.html#
Most any thymol products will do the trick if the conditions are right. I do think you are on the right track, though, backing the dosage off to 25g. 50g is a pretty good shot to a hive. When I have used it we have varied the dosage between 25 and 50 based on temps and hive populations. I like the price of the thymomite strips and unlike Apiguard you can use them under a flat lid without a rim. We treat in late August through September as long as there are no 90 + temps expected in the coming days. All we usually use is just a single treatment followed by an OA dribble in October when they are mostly broodless. A second treatment in lieu of the OA might do the trick as well but it's difficult to get a good treatment window when it's late enough for the hives to be broodless. OA is just so effective and so cheap to me it's an easy call. 
Thats been my program but there are lots of good commercials (primarily those not producing honey) who choose to treat earlier and then use supplements to extend the brooding season late into the fall. It can result in some awesome winter clusters if you are able to keep the mites in check.


----------



## Mbeck

Do you place them when temps are consistently in the high 70's to low 90's?
Where do you recommend placement in the hive? 
Is this in Texas or South Dakota?
Do you notice a difference in vapor retention with high humidity?
Thanks


----------



## jim lyon

A 3.2 % oxalic solution barely even burns your eyes if you catch a droplet on a ricochet. It's really quite benign in solution. The acid itself should be handled with care and I am careful when mixing to use a warm and not hot water as any steam you inhale can be felt in your lungs immediately. 
Formic acid is much more dangerous to handle, it will blister your skin within minutes, and you should always wear goggles when handling it.


----------



## Marlow F.W.

I use the Fatbeeman way. fumigate works well for me.


----------



## sqkcrk

jim lyon said:


> A 3.2 % oxalic solution barely even burns your eyes if you catch a droplet on a ricochet. It's really quite benign in solution. The acid itself should be handled with care and I am careful when mixing to use a warm and not hot water as any steam you inhale can be felt in your lungs immediately.
> Formic acid is much more dangerous to handle, it will blister your skin within minutes, and you should always wear goggles when handling it.


Do you use HOT tap water then?


----------



## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> The acid itself should be handled with care and I am careful when mixing to use a warm and not hot water as any steam you inhale can be felt in your lungs immediately.


Looks like a good way to get COPD.


----------



## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> Do you use HOT tap water then?


I fill a 5 gallon pail (a bit larger gives more mixing room) about 1/4th full of Luke warm water, just cool enough so it dosent steam. Add 24 ozs. Of OA and mix thoroughly then top off with 16 lbs. of sugar and enough warm water to make 5 gallons. Use a drill mixer to make sure it is thoroughly dissolved. Use a good quality sprayer like a Gilmour that has a removable filter in the line.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

jim lyon said:


> I fill a 5 gallon pail (a bit larger gives more mixing room) about 1/4th full of Luke warm water, just cool enough so it dosent steam. Add 24 ozs. Of OA and mix thoroughly then top off with 16 lbs. of sugar and enough warm water to make 5 gallons.


Wow! In addition to dealing with mites, Jim has offered an improved version of the _notorious _5 gallon "bucket 'o water" hurricane _hive retention system_™ ! :applause:

Note Jim's recipe will have the 5 gallon pail weighing about 50 lbs vs about 42 lbs for plain water! :gh:


----------



## sqkcrk

jim lyon said:


> Use a good quality sprayer like a Gilmour that has a removable filter in the line.


I see Sears handles the Gilmour Sprayers. Also available thru Amazon.

Do you use the Doc Deluxe 3 Gallon sprayer Jim? I bet you have a handful of them w/ all the hives you have.

When applying, does one person open hives while another sprays and then another, or the first, closes them up again? I can imagine cracking the upper deep off of the lower one to expose bees. Or are you simply applying spray down between the frames from the top, just removing the cover?

How do you count spray dosage? By a set number of frame gaps sprayed between? How?


----------



## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> Use a good quality sprayer like a Gilmour that has a removable filter in the line.


The bees are sprayed?


----------



## sqkcrk

Neat Barry. That's the first time I really noticed mentioning something in a THread and having it show up at the top of the page in an Advertisement. SEARS Sprayers.

What about Nathan's Hotdogs?


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> The bees are sprayed?


They are too small to put collars on them Brian. It's a drench. Kinda like when cattle or sheep are sent thru a tick bath trench. If you know what that is.


----------



## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> Bought locally or thru Grainger Catalog? Who handles Gilmour sprayers?


Lowes for one. They are pretty common. The cheap gallon sprayers don't last long for us. 
Brian: it's more a trickle than a spray and think of it as treating a cluster and not dousing each bee. Lots of good info out there on it. I would start at Randy Oliver's scientific beekeeping site.


----------



## David LaFerney

A turkey baster works well for a much smaller operation. Quickly delivers a measured dose. By the way the per hive dosage is so small you won't think it could possibly be enough - but it is.


----------



## WLC

I just want to point out that Randy was very clear that OA treatment is both risky and illegal. Of course, he then illustrates how to do it, with photographs of him using it, step by step. :scratch:

I hope we don't get to the 'roach gel' SHB traps.

Amitraz and MAQS are more than enough to deal with Varroa, and then some.

I know that OA is cost effective, and it works, but I think that we've crossed a line here.


----------



## jim lyon

WLC said:


> I just want to point out that Randy was very clear that OA treatment is both risky and illegal. Of course, he then illustrates how to do it, with photographs of him using it, step by step. :scratch:
> 
> I hope we don't get to the 'roach gel' SHB traps.
> 
> Amitraz and MAQS are more than enough to deal with Varroa, and then some.
> 
> I know that OA is cost effective, and it works, but I think that we've crossed a line here.


You aren't really going to equate the Fipronil I roach "hotels" with oxalic are you? I'm not sure powdered sugar is approved as a treatment either. The thing with oxalic is that no company is going to jump through all the hoops required to get approval for an oxalic based product because its so cheap and easy to use that no one would buy it. Perhaps we just need to stay with the "legal" stuff like Check Mite?


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm

> The thing with oxalic is that no company is going to jump through all the hoops required to get approval for an oxalic based product because its so cheap and easy to use that no one would buy it.


Oh, we'd buy it! They just wouldn't be able to make some ridiculous profit selling it. Once it was approved they'd have to compete with the now-illegal cheap stuff, so they couldn't jack the price. As always it's about $$$!

JMO

Rusty


----------



## WLC

Jim:

You're referring to the delay of registration for products that beekeepers need.

Some only recently became available through FIFRA, section 18. I haven't heard of anyone trying to get OA section 18 approval.

Let just say that not everyone is proficient in mixing chemicals safely and correctly.

OA really is a poison.

I didn't see a respirator in the photos for instance.

It's just too easy for someone to make a mistake.

We shouldn't be entertaining this.

Please read the MSDS for Oxalic Acid, and familiarize yourself with the warnings and precautions.


----------



## jim lyon

You are correct in that it needs to be handled with care but it is already a product found in hardware stores everywhere. Do you want me to start listing everything else sold in the same hardware store that needs to be handled just as carefully?


----------



## WLC

I've seen some really bad handling of some of those hardware store products.

Folks are buying OA in 50lb bags.

A respirator with dust protectors and organic cartridges (purple and orange, if I'm not mistaken), should suffice. Along w/ gloves, goggles, apron, etc. .

Is that too much too mention in passing? We both know what this is about.

PS-What could possibly go wrong with a 50lb, paper bag, of OA?


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm

WLC, I think that what you are not getting is that this forum is for adults who get to make their own decisions and live with their results. I am an adult and I get to make decisions for myself and live with the consequences. That's what adulthood is about. Sometimes I make good decisions and sometimes not, just like everybody else.

It is not Jim's responsibility--or anybody else's for that matter--to oversee other people's choices. If I should choose to use OA, for example, it will be up to ME to make sure I use it properly and safely. To do my research and understand the product *I* am choosing to use. It's nice when folks toss in a few warnings they are familiar with, but it certainly is NOT their responsibility. That remains solely with the user!!!

It's called adulthood.

JMO

Rusty


----------



## WWW

WLC, I have a 50 pound bag of Oxalic, and I have a hard time understanding what the problem is with this, I am not a 3 year old. I vaporize my hives in the fall and have no problems handling the OA, it is sold as a wood bleach for common everyday use. I can understand your concern over injuries but I think you are taking things to the extreme. This thread was originally posted to ask what everyone is using for treatments, it would have been nice if it could have remained this way, I would have liked to have heard all the differing methods that people have tried or are now using instead of a constant berating on what is wrong with treatments.


----------



## jim lyon

In this case I will cut WLC a little slack (I reserve the right to change my mind later) . He, apparently hasnt been around the process of mixing and using oxalic and, yes, there are a few safety concerns that should be addressed. I have chosen not to experiment with vaporization partly because of some of my concerns about safety and partly because it seems a bit slow and cumbersome process if you have thousands of hives to do. Also I have had such good success with the trickle that I am not sure why I would want to do anything any differently.


----------



## WBVC

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> adults who get to make their own decisions and live with their results.


I only have 15 hives so MAQS seems the easiest and potentially solution for me at this time. It is amazing how many different options there are.

Regarding home brewed OA or any other potentially harmful substance...what one chooses to do themselves, for their own hives, is their choice...hopefully it is an educated choice...however if employees, or contract workers, are applying such substances and at some point in time feel medical issues they have may be related to that substance, and/or the manner in which it was handled, the employer may well be found to liable. 

Question: For parasite control in other animals it is the norm to rotate product in hopes of reducing the chance of developing resitance. If one is to use MAQS in the fall should one use a different product in the spring?


----------



## WBVC

Question for Jim Lyon: How many mls of the mixture does one "trickle" in per 10 frame brood deep? Does one trickle over the actual brood frames or off to the sides?

Could use a cattle or sheep drenching gun with a pre measured volume per dose to does the hives...this would provide a squirt of a specific volume?


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm

> This thread was originally posted to ask what everyone is using for treatments, it would have been nice if it could have remained this way, I would have liked to have heard all the differing methods that people have tried or are now using instead of a constant berating on what is wrong with treatments.


What makes me insane about this harping about dangers of OA, is that folks on here routinely make all their own equipment using table saws, nailers, skill saws, and the like--any of which can kill someone. Yet not a peep about how dangerous building equipment is, only about how "dangerous" OA is! I'm more worried about accidentally slicing off my fingers than I am about OA!

JMO

Rusty


----------



## jim lyon

WBVC said:


> Question for Jim Lyon: How many mls of the mixture does one "trickle" in per 10 frame brood deep? Does one trickle over the actual brood frames or off to the sides?
> 
> Could use a cattle or sheep drenching gun with a pre measured volume per dose to does the hives...this would provide a squirt of a specific volume?


http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/
Randy explains it a lot better than I can.


----------



## WLC

Don't get upset. Just make sure that you own the right type of respirator. You know, for pesticides, dust, etc. .

If you're a beekeeper, you're using all kinds of products and should own one anyway, and you should use it every time you prepare and apply your treatments.

Somebody please send one over to Randy, and buy him an electronic balance for pete's sake.


----------



## sqkcrk

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> What makes me insane about this harping about dangers of OA, is that folks on here routinely make all their own equipment using table saws, nailers, skill saws, and the like--any of which can kill someone. Yet not a peep about how dangerous building equipment is, only about how "dangerous" OA is! I'm more worried about accidentally slicing off my fingers than I am about OA!
> 
> JMO
> 
> Rusty


Sliced off the corner of my right hand ring finger w/ a kitchen utensil. Wasn't even motorized. 

Right you are Rusty.


----------



## WLC

Here's a link with a video of Fatbeeman vaporizing OA:

http://www.tanglewoodapiary.com/tag/oxalic-acid/

What can I say? Please read the MSDS for OA.


----------



## Barry

"Dribbling will kill your bees" . . . hmmm. Hear that Jim!?


----------



## sqkcrk

Dribbling or driveling?


----------



## Oldtimer

For driveling see this thread. Scary how much power the American Housewife appears to wield. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?288356-Wife-s-out-of-town-and-I-really-messed-up


----------



## WLC

They sell 6% OA solution in Italy according to this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht4hVbSraHg


----------



## jim lyon

Barry said:


> "Dribbling will kill your bees" . . . hmmm. Hear that Jim!?


Ummm yeah. I am mostly wondering why bother with oxalic when you could be using fgmo. 
Well anyway, yes, there is some research showing that an oxalic treatment will reduce brood for some period of time. Its by far most effective when your hives are broodless so I guess I dont really see that as an issue. But actual loss of adult bees? No, I havent seen that. FWIW I have used it through the summer a few times but decided that it really wasnt that effective when the bees are real broody anyway. I think a diligent treatment once a week treatment for 3 weeks would probably be fairly effective but we dont seem to have much trouble making it through the honeyflow when we can use something that lasts longer like thymol.


----------



## WLC

Here's mum in the kitchen mixing up feed and oxalic acid: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0oi0MV7YTY


----------



## WLC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NoYE2FA6_U

Now that was the right way to do it!

Thanks Bernardino.

Bravo!


----------



## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/
> Randy explains it a lot better than I can.


Thanks for the link Jim. I know it is organic but I am not buying in to it as a backyarder. It still is a teeter tauter between killing mites and killing bees. I will stick with nature being the deciding factor between what lives and dies. So far nature has been pretty good to me.


----------



## Oldtimer

Acebird every treatment has it's price, they pretty much all have some undesired effect. Which may or may not pass unnoticed, but it's there.

Just like not treating.


----------



## Acebird

You said it well OT.


----------



## ryan

To all who are worried about Oxalic acid, please google "sugar MSDS" see if they don't sound kinda the same

Highlights include; don't breath the dust, eye and skin irritant, wear protective clothing, flush with water, blah blah blah blah


----------



## Flyer Jim

Oxalic acid, this is a new one, but I did find this.:shhhh:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?195328-Oxalic-acid ( check date ) see page 2
And there is more, I just didn't look.


----------



## jim lyon

Flyer Jim said:


> Oxalic acid, this is a new one, but I did find this.:shhhh:
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?195328-Oxalic-acid ( check date ) see page 2
> And there is more, I just didn't look.


...and for the record, yes that was me 7 years ago. A change in Internet service led to losing my e-mail address and so I just re-registered with a new e-mail. In hindsight I should have just notified Barry. Yeah we did only oxalic for a couple years. Seems like the first year went well and the second year we were seeing some late summer mite issues cropping up.


----------



## WLC

ryan said:


> To all who are worried about Oxalic acid, please google "sugar MSDS" see if they don't sound kinda the same
> 
> Highlights include; don't breath the dust, eye and skin irritant, wear protective clothing, flush with water, blah blah blah blah


No Ryan, the MSDS for powdered sugar is no where near the hazard level found for OA.

Please use a respirator and cover up.

Bernardino demonstrated the right way to use it.

I like Don. But, I just couldn't believe my eyes and ears.

OA is a miticide. Sugar isn't.

The other two videos didn't demonstrate the right way to handle it either. Randy only needed a respirator to be correct.

You need a C of Q to know what I mean.


----------



## Nabber86

ryan said:


> Highlights include; don't breath the dust......


Do you known what the term hygroscopic means? OA does not form dust. Vapors upon heating yes, but not dust.


----------



## Flyer Jim

jim lyon said:


> ...and for the record, yes that was me 7 years ago.


I just wanted people to know that oa has been used for a while, and most of us are still standing.


----------



## sjj

jim lyon said:


> ...But actual loss of adult bees? No, I havent seen that. FWIW I have used it through the summer a few times ...


To observe this one should weigh the treated beehives 24 hours after the treatment.


----------



## Daniel Y

WBVC said:


> I only have 15 hives so MAQS seems the easiest and potentially solution for me at this time. It is amazing how many different options there are.
> 
> Regarding home brewed OA or any other potentially harmful substance...what one chooses to do themselves, for their own hives, is their choice...hopefully it is an educated choice...however if employees, or contract workers, are applying such substances and at some point in time feel medical issues they have may be related to that substance, and/or the manner in which it was handled, the employer may well be found to liable.
> 
> Question: For parasite control in other animals it is the norm to rotate product in hopes of reducing the chance of developing resitance. If one is to use MAQS in the fall should one use a different product in the spring?


In my real life I oversee the use of over 160 different products in use by nearly 70 people.
1. Any product must be legal and be used for it's intended purpose and clearly labeled as to it's correct use. It is not required that I make anyone use it properly only that it's proper use it readily available for anyone using it.

2. I must have an MSDS for it and that must be available to anyone using it. This means if an inspector asks any one of our nearly 70 employes where the MSDS file is they can walk straight to it and get into it. it being in a office behind a locked door is not good enough.

3. any PPE necessary for protection from any and all hazards must be maid available in good proper working condition to any employee at any time. It is not required that I make them wear it. personal protection ins the employees responsibility. making that protection available is the employers.

Note that the requirement to wear protection is a tricky one. For example if my employer required that I vaporize hives with OA and did not provide a respirator. I could be injured and they would be liable. They failed to provide the recommended PPE. But if they had the PPE and demanded that I wear it. I might suffer an attack from claustrophobia, have by breathing hindered to the point I passed out and without someone their to remove the mask I could actually die. in that case my employer would also be held liable because it was their demand or chose that lead to my injury or death. This is why it is required the PPE be provided but it is not required it be forced to be worn. persona safety is the concern of the employee and the employee only.


----------



## sqkcrk

Nabber86 said:


> Do you known what the term hygroscopic means?


No need to be insulting. He's a beekeeper. He knows what it means to be hygroscopic.


----------



## sqkcrk

Daniel Y said:


> 1. Any product must be legal and be used for it's intended purpose and clearly labeled as to it's correct use.


Do you use OA in your "real life"? How would you and your employer deal w/ something commonly sold and used in its raw form which doesn't come w/ a list of intended purposes or correct use?


----------



## Daniel Y

OA is a wood bleach. i am the repair and supply technician for a custodial department. OA in it's pure form is not in the list of our MSDS file. But products that have it in it are.

As for the intended use. The regulation does not say you have to have it labeled if it came with a label. It says it has to be labeled. so if it does not have one you either don't use it or you make one. Making the label would be my job but I have a lot of support in getting it done. I have an entire chemistry department with multiple professors overseeing multiple fields of study. I also have a first rate medical school. I have engineering departments in the following fields. Mechanical. chemical. mining electrical and bio engineering.

In the end that "it was to difficult to do" is not an excuse. You either get it done or don't use the chemical. I think for a place that used to operate an nuclear reactor it would have to be pretty far out their to be over our heads.

As for OA I have read the MSDS and the label would be easy to write. It would simply be 

intended use. application to honey bees in either liquid or vapor form.

The list of PPE would be protective clothing. which includes splash goggles, synthetic apron and respirator.

Other precautions would include avoidance of contact with skin eyes or breathing dust or vapors.
Keep in mind that the MSDS for citric acid is very similar to that of FA and OA. I am not sure how many people are concerned with lung damage while peeling an orange. But they would in fact suffer lung damage if repeatedly exposed to Citric Acid.

Keep in mind also that water has an MSDS sheet. PPE for it is a lab coat and safety glasses. No kidding.


----------



## sqkcrk

I wondered about that, about water. I bet there is an MSDS on Oxygen too and we all use it every day w/out any of the paperwork. I hope I am using it properly and according to the legal recommendations.


----------



## WLC

Daniel Y:

Thanks for responding as someone familiar with C of Qs.

I have spoken with experienced folks in several hardware stores, and they all tell me the same thing: are you a professional?, and, do you know how to use it safely?

I think that contrasting the Fatbeeman vs the Bernardino video on OA vaporization/sublimation for treating hives serves to demonstrate the proper level of protection one should use.


----------



## Barry

jim lyon said:


> ...and for the record, yes that was me 7 years ago. A change in Internet service led to losing my e-mail address and so I just re-registered with a new e-mail. In hindsight I should have just notified Barry.


Never too late to fix that problem, I'll merge the two accounts together.


----------



## jim lyon

A little perspective here. Let's not forget OA has two primary means of application as a varroacide. A low pressure dribble and vaporization. Both are effective at killing mites but vaporization is by far the most hazardous. I havent done it but I would think a breathing aparatus would be mandator or at the very least extreme caution in staying upwind. If, on the other hand, you are using the low pressure dribble method you are dealing with a highly diluted liquid that emits no fumes and has a relatively low acid content. I have even gotten a few droplets in an eye with nothing more than a very mild stinging sensation, it's no doubt best to rinse it out well but I have also ignored it and it quickly "teared" away. When using it as a dribble the only real danger is the handling and mixing of the raw product. Just a little common sense is required, the mixing process which takes a few minutes is, I am sure, far less hazardous than its primary use as a wood bleach or a cleaning product.


----------



## CLICKBANGBANG

I'll be using OA on my spring splits. I'll time the dribble right before the queen starts laying after the queen cell is placed in the split (as described by Randy on his site). Try to dribble while the least amount of brood is present. 


I wish there was an ignor feature for members on this forum (like I have on others).


----------



## Acebird

Daniel Y said:


> It is not required that I make them wear it. personal protection ins the employees responsibility. making that protection available is the employers.


I don't think OSHA looks at it that way. An employer gets fined if an employee is not wearing required protection. An employee can get fired for not wearing the required protection after three recorded instances and that includes union members.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> I wish there was an ignor feature for members on this forum ...

Today is your lucky day!  At the very top of this page, click on _Settings_, then in the box on the left side, look for "_Edit Ignore List_".


----------



## WLC

Well, the only difference in PPE that you would use in applying it as a stream/spray vs a fumigant is 1/2 facial respirator w/ eye protection vs a full facial respirator.

I'm not convinced that the many downsides of using OA are out weighted by it's benefits, especially here in the U.S. .

If I were faced with the choice of using OA vs other products, using OA would be against my own best judgment.


----------



## WLC

Don't get upset over the OA controversy.

It's illegal to use an unregistered product in your hives, and using one also means that it's illegal to sell your hive products for human consumption.

I've also pointed out, and illustrated, that there are safety issues as well.

Just use a registered product, and then use it safely.

It's a perfectly reasonable position to take in my own eyes.

Don't forget, I've found a way to feed an organic acid, lactic acid, to Honeybees as a live culture.

The lactic acid bacteria are good for the bees gut, and lactic acid has been used to treat Varroa although it isn't as effective as FA or OA.

I called it BeeGurt.

PS-Is ethanol a registered treatment for Honeybees/Varroa? I've got a live culture of that as well.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

WLC said:


> If I were faced with the choice of using OA vs other products, using OA would be against *my own best judgment*.


This is coming from a NYC beekeeper who likes honey, but _won't eat his own bees honey_!



> I like some of the Langnese varietal Honeys.
> 
> I don't eat NYC honey.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...rticle&p=986214&highlight=varietal#post986214


:gh:


----------



## WLC

Exactly. I don't like contaminants, not even 'mountain dew', in honey.

But, it's not about me.

The choice to use a treatment can get complex. Especially if you're using something like OA. It has it's own 'baggage'.


----------



## Barry

WLC said:


> It's illegal to use an unregistered product in your hives,
> 
> [snip]
> 
> I've found a way to feed an organic acid, lactic acid, to Honeybees as a live culture.


In the same post even!


----------



## WLC

It's not illegal to feed a food grade product to your bees.

It's a type of feed. Besides, I can start a culture using honey!

I think that using a hive's own microflora to ferment syrup and milk into a **** fermentive, lactic acid live feed is cutting edge.

It's way outside the box type thinking.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

And here we have the MSDS sheet for lactic acid: 
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924447

A partial quote:


> Other Toxic Effects on Humans:
> Extremely hazardous in case of inhalation (lung corrosive). Very hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of ingestion, . Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive), of eye contact (corrosive).
> 
> Special Remarks on Chronic Effects on Humans:
> May affect genetic material. May cause *adverse reproductive effects and birth defects *based on animal data.
> 
> ....
> 
> Protective Equipment:
> Gloves. *Full suit. Vapor respirator.* Be sure to use an approved/certified respirator or equivalent. Wear appropriate respirator when ventilation is inadequate. Face shield.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Full document here:
> _http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924447


:ws:


----------



## WLC

Aaah! But, it's BeeGurt.


----------



## jim lyon

Barry said:


> Never too late to fix that problem, I'll merge the two accounts together.


....and I get "credit" for all my old posts as well? Awesome! That would get me close to half the number of posts of the iconic "birdman" .


----------



## ryan

WLC, perhaps I should have stated that I use OA as a drench. Never as fog with a heat element. Please do comment on the danger levels with this system.

In my experience the oxalic acid is very safe and easy to use as a drench. Formic acid is legal and registered, but it always seems a danger to use. When I compare the 2 acids, Oxalic in the drench form has a danger level near zero. Formic acid, in any form, puts me on edge. The danger level is obvious with formic.


----------



## WLC

ryan:

That's an interesting point. The product that's less risky, more economical, and more effective, isn't likely to be registered (because of $ issues).

However, something like MAQs gets section 18 registration.

I guess it just means that beekeepers are going to keep on using OA like they've been doing for a very long time. (Stubbornly independent as always.)

Someone made a reference to pot. It's sort of like the pot vs alcohol argument. Not legalized, but no hangover.

Regardless, I'm still into safety.

Of course, you know that of the 3 organic acids used to treat Varroa, I favor Lactic Acid.

It actually belongs in the hive, and I can ferment my own LAB feed using nothing but syrup, milk, and honey.

I'll leave FA for the ants, and OA in parsley.


----------



## cg3

WLC said:


> PS-Is ethanol a registered treatment for Honeybees/Varroa? I've got a live culture of that as well.


Whatever you do, don't drink it! Have you seen the MSDS sheet?


----------



## sqkcrk

jim lyon said:


> A little perspective here. Let's not forget OA has two primary means of application as a varroacide. A low pressure dribble and vaporization. Both are effective at killing mites but vaporization is by far the most hazardous. I havent done it but I would think a breathing aparatus would be mandator or at the very least extreme caution in staying upwind. If, on the other hand, you are using the low pressure dribble method you are dealing with a highly diluted liquid that emits no fumes and has a relatively low acid content. I have even gotten a few droplets in an eye with nothing more than a very mild stinging sensation, it's no doubt best to rinse it out well but I have also ignored it and it quickly "teared" away. When using it as a dribble the only real danger is the handling and mixing of the raw product. Just a little common sense is required, the mixing process which takes a few minutes is, I am sure, far less hazardous than its primary use as a wood bleach or a cleaning product.


Safer than other beekeeping chemicals that folks don't rail against, butyricanhydride, BeeGo, and such.


----------



## sqkcrk

CLICKBANGBANG said:


> I wish there was an ignor feature for members on this forum (like I have on others).


There is. Look for the list of options under your Profile.


----------



## Joel_T

Well, nearly 300 posts later, and except for the gal from washington's good post, and a few others, I'm only hearing about how dangerous things are but not so much of whether things work or not. Only saw a couple references to FGMO but nothing about any level of success in using it. Sooooo....what have those in the know (supposedly) heard about using it?


----------



## sqkcrk

Check w/ fatbeeman, he swears by it. I don't know what the MSDS on it is or if it is labeled for use as a pesticide though, so somebody's gonna come down on ya for usin' it I'll bet.


----------



## cg3

Recent thread: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?283157-Started-fogging-today

In a nutshell, he fogs religiously all season but, in the end, he decides to kill the mites instead.


----------



## WLC

Don said at the end of the video on this site that OA is his preferred method:

http://www.tanglewoodapiary.com/tag/oxalic-acid/

Here's how an Italian beekeeper uses OA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NoYE2FA6_U

It isn't hard to do. Neither is using PPE.


----------



## Oldtimer

cg3 said:


> Recent thread: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?283157-Started-fogging-today
> 
> In a nutshell, he fogs religiously all season but, in the end, he decides to kill the mites instead.


Ha Ha Cg3 you have a way with words. 

FGMO suddenly became popular here 2 or 3 years ago among small beekeepers, mainly because of the simplicity of it. It was quite the rage. Then has virtually disappeared from use again as people found it was expensive, and didn't get rid of the mites.


----------



## Michael Bush

>And here we have the MSDS sheet for lactic acid:

I'll never eat yogurt again...


----------



## WLC

Mike:

They've obviously never read Vasquez:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188

WLC.


----------



## Michael Bush

>They've obviously never read Vasquez:

Apparently not ...


----------



## beemandan

Oldtimer said:


> because of the simplicity of it.


Another small local beekeeper asked my opinion of fgmo fogging....just a week ago. I told him I didn't believe it did any good. He looked quite disappointed. I told him to cheer up as there were all sorts of things that would work. He said...I know...but fogging with fgmo looked so easy.


----------



## Nabber86

WLC said:


> Folks are buying OA in 50lb bags.
> 
> PS-What could possibly go wrong with a 50lb, paper bag, of OA?


Not anythying worse than a gallon can of paint stripper or a 5-gallon jug of gasoline.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

>> PS-What could possibly go wrong with a 50lb, paper bag, of OA?

> Not anythying worse than a gallon can of paint stripper or a 5-gallon jug of gasoline. :lpf:

Or a case or two of _lactic acid_, for that matter. :lpf: :lpf:

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924446

:gh:


----------



## beemandan

Or a 5 gallon can of gasoline and a fifty pound bag of fertilizer.


----------



## Joel_T

WLC said:


> Mike:
> 
> They've obviously never read Vasquez:
> 
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188
> 
> WLC.



Good grief.....I'm supposed to read that?? I take it straight forward results/conclusions are outlawed around here. I guess like everything else fogging with FGMO works, or doesn't, depending on which side of bed you get out on on a paticular day. Geez..........


----------



## Nabber86

beemandan said:


> Or a 5 gallon can of gasoline and a fifty pound bag of fertilizer.


Well you just made the NSA list.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> Good grief.....I'm supposed to read that?? I take it straight forward results/conclusions are outlawed around here.

Instead, read the posts by _Jim Lyon_ starting at post #133 on this page:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...using-for-TREAMENTS/page7&p=989644#post989644

Jim expands on his comments in following posts. You will have to ignore the heckling from the peanut gallery about OA (oxalic acid). Jim has thousands of hives, and years of experience, and seems to be a straightforward guy.


----------



## WLC

Well, besides the legal and safety issues....

Why would a beekeeper using 'wood bleach' claim to be pesticide free and organic?

OA is obviously being used as an acaricide, and I don't see how it could be construed as being an organic practice?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

WLC said:


> Why would a beekeeper using 'wood bleach' claim to be pesticide free and _*organic*_?


If this is in reference to _Jim Lyon_, I challenge you to provide one single reference where Jim claimed to be *organic*.


----------



## Michael Bush

>>They've obviously never read Vasquez:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0033188

>Good grief.....I'm supposed to read that??

You don't have to, but if you want to understand why all these organic acids and antibiotics are disrupting the health of the bees, I would recommend it. However, WLC's point is that Lactic Acid Bacteria are producing lactic acid in the gut of the bee and keeping them healthy...


----------



## WLC

I'm thinking about the 'safety challenged' guy in the video I linked to.

Does anyone know if BeeWeaver is using OA?


----------



## jim lyon

If you are talking about me. I have never claimed the title "organic". I'm not really sure what that means. All I have stated is that the honey buyer that has been buying the bulk of our crop in recent years, rigorously tests for miticides and antibiotics down to a 1ppb lod. I have (in the 5 years in which they have tested) never had a positive reading for a miticide and only a few trace (in ppb's) amounts of antibiotics ever detected, the most recent being 3 crop years ago. I would have no problem making those results public if they werent incorporated with my financial account statements. I do, however have the test results from the pollen sampling taken from our hives by the State of South Dakota and included in the USDA/APHIS report with test results for 173 different pesticides (including all the major miticides). Every one was negative. Perhaps I will take the time to figure how to scan and link it, if that would make me more credible.


----------



## WLC

No Jim, I'm not referring to you.

I just made one of those connections in an 'Ah Ha!' moment.


----------



## chr157y

DPBsbees - I'd love to buy a NUC from you next year. Can you msg me your info? I bought a package last year, since I am currently using a TBH, but I'm going to add a Lang next year.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

WLC said:


> No Jim, I'm not referring to you.
> 
> I just made one of those connections in an 'Ah Ha!' moment.


Funny how your "organic" comment was posted _immediately _after I mentioned _Jim Lyon_ using oxalic acid. :scratch:

If you _really _weren't referring to _Jim Lyon_, why don't you go back and edit your post #307 to make that clear?


----------



## WLC

Do you want to hear something really funny?

According to the Mann Lake catalogue, MAQS are certified organic!

So, I guess some folks need to switch to keep their organic claim.

I don't see the organic designation for hopguard, menthol, or thymol.


----------



## cg3

So who is this that is claiming to be organic?


----------



## Gino45

Question: Can oxalic vapor be safely (for bees) used when brood is present? 

Do treatments such as bulk apiguard and MAQS lose their potency when stored and/or exposed to heat or sunlight?

And yes, it is my understanding that MAQS is considered an organic treatment, fwiw.
Thanks for all the information, good and not so good, being posted here.


----------



## Oldtimer

WLC. Rattlesnake venom is organic.

I've always wondered why it is that some people think organic, means safe, not toxic, or whatever. They just don't understand what organic is.

Both oxalic acid and formic acid are naturally occurring substances and are organic.

When I checked out thymol recently, I discovered there is an organic one, extracted from the plant, and an artificially manufactured one, not considered organic. (in some circles).


----------



## Acebird

Oldtimer said:


> I've always wondered why it is that some people think organic, means safe, not toxic, or whatever. They just don't understand what organic is.


Many things get watered down over time especially when big corporations jump on the band wagon. "Organic" refers to the practices used and in some instances the chemicals used. Most people who seek out organic products feel they are safer than products that are not organic. A lot of that is lack of trust in large corporations.

Myself, I would not consider honey that comes from chemically treated hives to be organic but the actual certification for "organic" honey may allow certain chemicals to be used.


----------



## cg3

Where are these "organic" bees foraging?


----------



## WLC

Oldtimer said:


> WLC. ...Both oxalic acid and formic acid are naturally occurring substances and are organic....


Not oxalic. Not in the U.S. .

Once the EPA recognized formic acid, it could be registered as organic as per existing national organic organizations.

Lactic acid could also be recognized as an organic treatment if it gets section 18 registration.

Oxalic acid isn't eligible.

It's probably been common practice, used by more beekeepers, for longer, than the other two, but it still isn't eligible.

Strange, but true. OA isn't organic in the U.S. .

WLC.


----------



## cg3

WLC said:


> Not oxcalic. Not in the U.S. .


If you spell it right you can then use Wikipedia.


----------



## WLC

D'oh!

OA needs to be recognized as a Varroa treatment by the EPA to start the process.

It was a 'silent' 'c'.


----------



## cg3

I guess you were using the vague health food term organic. But I'm pretty sure that a compound found in plants with a formula of H2C2O4 is organic.


----------



## WLC

I'm referring to organic beekeeping/organic honey.

OA isn't recognized by the EPA, so in effect, it doesn't exist.

FA is recognized, and as a result, MAQS are now 'organic' treatments.

If you want to call OA 'organic', you've got some work to do.

However, with all those beekeepers suing the EPA, I don't think that now would be the best time to ask the EPA to recognize OA as a Varroa treatment. Although, I could be wrong....


----------



## cg3

WLC said:


> If you want to call OA 'organic', you've got some work to do.


Oxford dictionary

adjective
1. of, relating to, or derived from living matter:
organic soils
Chemistry of, relating to, or denoting compounds containing carbon (other than simple binary compounds and salts) and chiefly or ultimately of biological origin.


----------



## cg3

Still not sure who these "organic beekepers" are who are going to have to change their practices.


----------



## Oldtimer

Yes, I was just saying it is organic. Whether it is registered as such in a particular country for a particular use, is something that requires money to be spent to obtain the legal registration so is only undertaken by someone who will make financial gain from their investment. Nobody will become a millionaire by selling oxalic acid to beekeepers for varroa mite treatment so it may never happen.

As there doesn't seem to be any beekeepers using the unregistered version but claiming legal certified organic status, there does not appear to be an issue.


----------



## WLC

I'm not completely buying the 'Catch 22' relationship between OA and the EPA. $? You've got something better than that: public opinion.

Perhaps it's the EPA that is so completely dysfunctional, that it has failed to recognize one of the most common Varroa treatments in the U.S., and perhaps the world?

It's the EPA's failure, not a failure by beekeepers.

See how I turned that on it's head?


----------



## sqkcrk

Seems like we have had a pretty good report of the things people are using to treat bees for mites, comments from those who advocate not treating and arguments about how awful it is for people to use something which beekeepers not keeping bees for research find effective, quite eloquently described and defended by Jim Lyons.

We see in this Thread the gamut of beekeepers and how they choose to address Varroa destructor. I have enjoyed reading what people have had to say, other than the comments from my Ignore List Members of course. I hope others have learned something here. I know I have.


----------



## ryan

WLC. Let me see if I can reel you in....organic is not being used as a retail class or anything the EPA is concerned with. I'm quite sure others in this thread are using this word in a pure CHEMESTRY sense. I barely passed this class in high school, but I can tell you they were not writing about organic honey sales or EPA registration. 

Someone help me out here.


----------



## sqkcrk

Feed some other wolf. He ain't really keepin' bees like anybody else or for any reason like anybody else.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> Someone help me out here.

Its pointless to try to push this. Mark is right. The guy Mark is referring to is a beekeeper who, even though he eats honey, admits he won't eat honey _from his own hives_.


----------



## WLC

Aside from the aspersions from the individuals on my own 'ignore' list...

ryan:

I'm not using the term 'organic' in the chemistry sense, but I am using it in the 'organic foods' sense.

You can't say that OA is 'organically certified' because the organizations that do so can't even consider it as an 'organic' treatment for Varroa.
The EPA doesn't recognize it as a treatment, so neither can they.
It's just wood bleach.


----------



## Oldtimer

WLC said:


> You can't say that OA is 'organically certified'.


Nobody did. Where's the issue?


----------



## sqkcrk

THere is no issue. No issue is needed to carry on this type of conversation not needed to further the conversation about what folks are using to treat colonies for mite infestation.


----------



## ryan

WLC. That's my point, everyone was talking chemistry, MSDS, safety and effectiveness. Not organic certification.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm

from WLC:


> You can't say that OA is 'organically certified' because the organizations that do so can't even consider it as an 'organic' treatment for Varroa.


From the CNG (Certified Naturally Grown) Apiary Standards under Appendix I "Allowed Substances":


> Oxalic Acid – for colonies with demonstrated Varroa infestation levels above accepted
> treatment threshold


 You can read more at http://www.naturallygrown.com

Rusty


----------



## WLC

I have read the CNG booklet. But, that's for something called certified naturally grown. It's still illegal to use OA, or to sell anything if you did.

There's a different document that explains why OA wasn't considered by organic organizations. But, FA was.

www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5087792

Maybe it's time that you ask your own organizations to petition the EPA to both list OA, and grant FIFRA, section 18 status.

After all, it's an emergency. It says so in the media.

You do have the fact that it has been approved for use else where on your side.

"The Canadian Honey Council has provided the American Beekeeping Federation their registration data packet to expedite the registration of OA in the USA. As a result, the recommended concentration of the OA solution that will appear on the US label will most likely be identical to the Canadian label. "

(Aliano, 2009)

Does anyone know if the ABF ever petitioned the EPA after the CHC shared their registration data packet?


----------



## Huntingstoneboy

A perfectly useful thread Gone Bad! Not even checking this one anymore!


----------



## WLC

ir4.rutgers.edu/Biopesticides/Beeregistrations.pdf‎

They never submitted OA for registration. ???

It was pending.

Perhaps someone needs to get the folks at the IR-4 project at Rutgers together with the Canadian Honey Council?

http://ir4.rutgers.edu/

http://www.honeycouncil.ca/

Fellas, why am I doing your work for you?

I use BeeGurt. 

WLC.


----------



## sqkcrk

Huntingstoneboy said:


> A perfectly useful thread Gone Bad! Not even checking this one anymore!


I've unsubscribed a cpl times but get sucked back in. Kinda like Michael Corleone. ha,ha


----------



## Nabber86

Back to the topic of the thread. I built a new (third generation) OA vaporizer out of a piece of aluminum and a couple of diesel glow plugs. I cant wait to use it this weekend. 

I am thinking of maybe trying a couple of other organic acids; malic, or acetic might work good.


----------



## beemandan

Huntingstoneboy said:


> A perfectly useful thread Gone Bad! Not even checking this one anymore!


If you put a particular poster on ignore...it cleans up nicely.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

At the _very _top of this page, click on "Settings", then in the "My Settings" box on the left side, click on "_Edit Ignore List"_.


----------



## Gypsi

My 2nd hive (after the first one died out and absconded in record time --- ooops) came from the same gal I got the first one. I did a mite count just by putting a sticky board under my sbb and got 100 mites in one day. I dusted with powdered sugar the wrong way - literally painting it on the bees on the faces of the frames since I didn't know better - once a week for 2 or 3 weeks. My mite count after that time in a 24 hour drop was 7. The powdered sugar induces a brood break. Anything that causes a brood break reduces mite counts, and yes, drone comb is a favorite. 

In one of the hives I need to split I found a solid frame of drone cells built in a medium frame no foundation. The bees have the idea too?

I am of course a hobby beekeeper with endless time on my hands between running a business, managing other livestock, multiple gardens and babysitting grandchild with ear infection since I can get her healthy. I think the propolis really helped... 

(just read the rest of the thread,. my my now I remember why I dodge beesource a lot. You guys play nice!)


----------



## sqkcrk

Nabber86 said:


> Back to the topic of the thread. I built a new (third generation) OA vaporizer out of a piece of aluminum and a couple of diesel glow plugs. I cant wait to use it this weekend.
> 
> I am thinking of maybe trying a couple of other organic acids; malic, or acetic might work good.


Devil's advocate asks if you have a home made respirator too? heh,heh


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm

beemandan said:


> If you put a particular poster on ignore...it cleans up nicely.


Except when you still look. Which I did. Again. I never seem to learn. NEVER feed the trolls. Why is that so hard for me to manage?!? :doh:

Rusty


----------



## sqkcrk

Maybe we need to form a support group. I wish that Posts from Ignore List Members didn't show up in Quoted Posts. Current technology not up to that yet I guess.


----------



## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> Devil's advocate asks if you have a home made respirator too? heh,heh


I receive training and get fit-tested every year so I can be certified to wear a respirator at my job. 

Plus I get general health and safety training, Industrial Hygiene, Hazardous Waste Operations and Emergency Response (HAZWOPER), OSHA Hazard Recognition Training for the Construction Industry, and confined space entry training.

I have access to a stock room full of safety gear including respirators, at least a half dozen different types of respirator cartridges, self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA - similar to SCUBA, but on dry land; no pretty coral), HAZMAT suits, moon boots, photoionization meters, detector tubes, H2S/O2/CO detectors, and explosimeters. 

Let’s just say that I know how to play nice with hazardous materials and OA is way down the list of chemicals as far as hazards go.


----------



## WLC

Funny thing is, at this point I have to click view post to read what half of you are posting.

Bernardino's video shows you the safe way to use OA where it's legal.

Yup, that's a full facial respirator he's wearing under his veil. He's covered from head to toe as well. (Although there is a risk of 'exposure' when he bends down. Just say no to crack.)


----------



## sqkcrk

Cool. R u an Army Search and Rescue Team Member or something? A Fireman perhaps?


----------



## cg3

sqkcrk said:


> Kinda like Michael Corleone.


Who's Fredo?


----------



## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> Cool. R u an Army Search and Rescue Team Member or something? A Fireman perhaps?


I investigate and clean up hazardous waste sites.


----------



## WLC

OA is hygroscopic.

Meaning, it can form very sharp crystals if improperly handled that are both a contact and respiratory hazard. The rest is in the MSDS. And, you can also read the warnings from other beekeepers, including Randy.

Just use treatments that are approved. Apivar and MAQS are more than enough to do the job of treating for Varroa.


----------



## Nabber86

WLC said:


> OA is hygroscopic.
> 
> Meaning, it can form very sharp crystals if improperly handled that are both a contact and respiratory hazard. The rest is in the MSDS. And, you can also read the warnings from other beekeepers, including Randy.
> 
> Just use treatments that are approved. Apivar and MAQS are more than enough to do the job of treating for Varroa.



Wrong, as usual. 

I dont know where you got that information, but hygroscopic means that the compound readily absorbs water from the atmosphere – Meaning as if you have ever opened a tub of OA you will find that it is in clumps and does not generate dust. Not sure where you are going with the “very sharp crystal” thing, but hygroscopic has _nothing_ to do with crystal shape. Maybe you were confusing OA with asbestos? Who knows? 

Yes the MSDS says to avoid inhalation as they do for every chemical in existence but in practice, unless you are snorting it, you are not going to inhale the solid form.


----------



## WLC

OA is more than just wood bleach, which is how most tradesman use it.

It also removes rusts from metals.

In addition, OA will strip paint from a metal surface.

Improperly handled/stored OA can form very sharp crystals. That's a contact/inhalation hazard, and that's a fact.

I make it a practice to avoid the risky stuff when safer alternatives are available.

I'll listen to the warnings from tradesmen about OA. Plus, it isn't legal to use for treating Varroa anyway you slice it.

After watching Fatbeeman demo OA sublimation for treating Varroa, I think I'm not alone in saying that the safe use of OA needs to be addressed.

I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

This complacency isn't productive. It's a problem.


----------



## sqkcrk

Nabber86 said:


> Yes the MSDS says to avoid inhalation as they do for every chemical in existence but in practice, unless you are snorting it, you are not going to inhale the solid form.


Never underestimate the power of suggestion.


----------



## Nabber86

I am not arguing that OA is not an inhalation hazard _when vaporized_, you have the mode of exposure complelty wrong. 

OA by itself does not form sharp crystals. Even if OA did form sharp crystals, they would dissolve upon contact with the moisture in your lungs; immediately. Crystal shape has nothing to do with the hazards of OA. 

Perhaps you are confused (again) and are trying to equate OA in a tub with the formation of kidney stones when OA reacts with calcium to form calcium oxalate. Those would be sharp crystals, but OA is not calcium oxalate

EDIT: As backyarder, using OA is not illegal. It is no different than if I decided fume my hives with acetic acid or peppermint oil. Ironically if OA were approved as a pesticide and I wasnt following the lable directions, _then_ I would be breaking the law.


----------



## WLC

So we've got a NY State bee inspector, and someone certified in hazmat advocating/using an illegal pesticide? :scratch:

Nabber86, you've even built your own OA vaporizer! 

Look, you really do need to go through the process of getting OA approved for apiary use first.

Because without a label/instructions describing it's safe/proscribed use, it's unsafe and illegal.  

Stick with the legal treatments, and follow the instructions on the label. :thumbsup:

And please, someone get Don the appropriate PPE at the very least. I think that he did everything that you could possibly do wrong in that video. The worst part was inviting the camera operator to take a closer look at the fumes. :no:

You can't make this stuff up.


----------



## Nabber86

WLC said:


> So we've got a NY State bee inspector, and someone certified in hazmat advocating/using an illegal pesticide? :scratch:
> 
> You can't make this stuff up.


Care to show me where you are getting the idea that me, as a backyarder, using OA to treat my hives is illegal? 

Ya know, like the CFR, or maybe the section FIFRA that you are reading?


----------



## Oldtimer

My treatments of choice are Apivar (not Api life var), Formic Acid, Apiguard, and Oxalic Acid. The oxalic I administer as a vapour I'm not so keen on the dribble. In fact for several years I have used nothing other than those.

I would be very happy if I could get down to a routine like Jims. For me at this time, it wouldn't work, a spring treatment is often needed because brood is raised all winter here there is no broodless period. I also suspect Jims bees are more varroa resistant than mine.

Each of those 4 treatments has some kind of potential undesirable effects. I have been working towards a system that handles all problems I come up against and each one of those treatments has it's place.

More work than some of you guys have to do, but nobody who takes a look can say my bees are not pumping with good health.


----------



## Oldtimer

Oxalic vaporising does not HAVE to be slow. Check these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARK2tyXFfrU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtITG6iJxeQ


----------



## jim lyon

Oldtimer said:


> My treatments of choice are Apivar (not Api life var), Formic Acid, Apiguard, and Oxalic Acid. The oxalic I administer as a vapour I'm not so keen on the dribble. In fact for several years I have used nothing other than those.
> 
> I would be very happy if I could get down to a routine like Jims. For me at this time, it wouldn't work, a spring treatment is often needed because brood is raised all winter here there is no broodless period. I also suspect Jims bees are more varroa resistant than mine.
> 
> Each of those 4 treatments has some kind of potential undesirable effects. I have been working towards a system that handles all problems I come up against and each one of those treatments has it's place.
> 
> More work than some of you guys have to do, but nobody who takes a look can say my bees are not pumping with good health.


Good points all OT. Whether you have a treatment plan or whether you are trying to become treatment free it should always be remembered that there is no simple "one size fits all" plan. What may work for me with my bees, in our climate with our local forage and local stresses and with our management may or may not work for others. I sure don't feel I am using any revolutionary management system it's mostly just good beekeeping practices applied together with an IPM plan. It's worked for us for quite a number of years now. At this point about the only changes I could foresee making are further treatment reductions and a continued limited introduction of more mite resistant stock.


----------



## Daniel Y

From the link provided by WLC.

The Group states that there are several materials that are not recognized by the EPA for use in
bees including *Folic acid*, *Lactic acid* and *Oxalic acid* for mite control. If these materials do receive EPA registration, the Group recommends they be petitioned for inclusion on the
National List. The group recommends that Folic acid and Lactic acid should have the following
annotations:
Folic Acid – for use as a pesticide to control varroa mites solely within honeybee hives, after last honey harvest; discontinue 30 days prior to addition of bee product harvest equipment.

Lactic acid – after last honey harvest; discontinue 30 days prior to addition of bee product
harvest equipment. The need must be documented and approved prior to use. 

It seems to me that there is less concern about the use of OA than FA or LA given there is no recommended annotation if it is approved.

I am not seeing anything about the mentioned.
"There's a different document that explains why OA wasn't considered by organic organizations. But, FA was."

From what I am seeing OA, FA and LA where all being petitioned. All with expectations of some degree for approval.


----------



## WLC

"From what I am seeing OA, FA and LA where all being petitioned. All with expectations of some degree for approval."

Look again, OA's submission was pending.

Also, the organic folks didn't consider OA.


----------



## wildbranch2007

Nabber86 said:


> Care to show me where you are getting the idea that me, as a backyarder, using OA to treat my hives is illegal?


how soon we all forget, I couldn't get a link to the following to work but copied all of it.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Tuesday, December 5, 2006

CONTACT: Michael Schommer, Communications Director, 651-201-6629ST. PAUL, Minn.

The Minnesota Department of Agriculture (MDA) recently concluded an enforcement action against Adee Honey Farms, of Bruce, South Dakota. Adee Honey Farms produces honey and in 2006 had several thousand bee colonies in Minnesota.

Adee Honey Farms paid a $14,000 settlement penalty to the MDA for illegal use of pesticides within bee colonies to control Varroa mites and for making a false statement to MDA inspectors. MDA learned of the pesticide misuse in June 2006 during a random pesticide use inspection at two Adee Honey Farm bee colonies in Yellow Medicine County. MDA inspectors noticed blue paper towels in several hives. Follow-up laboratory testing showed that the towels contained oxalic acid and fluvalinate.

The U.S. Environmental Protection (EPA) has not registered any pesticide with the active ingredient oxalic acid for use in bee hives. Additionally, the only fluvalinate pesticide EPA has registered for use in bee hives is found in the pesticide product Apistan. This product is available in the form of strips, not paper towels. Apistan strips, however, are more costly than the liquid fluvalinate pesticide that MDA determined Adee Honey Farm used. The owner and operator of Adee Honey Farms told MDA investigators he was aware that the pesticides he used were illegal and not for use in bee hives.

State and federal law requires that pesticides must be used in accordance with label directions, and this includes proper use sites. Pesticide label directions and restrictions are designed to protect human health and the environment, so it is imperative that users of these products read and follow the labels. Because the pesticides Adee Honey Farms used were not labeled for use in bee hives, no use directions and human or environmental precautions were on the labels.


----------



## sqkcrk

Well, how about that.

I wonder if their treatment was effective?


----------



## WLC

So, Bret Adee, the leader of the NPDF which is suing the EPA, got caught and fined for using OA, etc.?

So much for moral authority.

Now you know why you need to use approved and labeled products only.


----------



## Nabber86

wildbranch2007 said:


> how soon we all forget, I couldn't get a link to the following to work but copied all of it.
> 
> Because the pesticides Adee Honey Farms used were not labeled for use in bee hives, no use directions and human or environmental precautions were on the labels.


Yes, and that would apply to commercial bee operations and commercial pesticide applicators, not me in my backyard.

Think about it for a moment. Would I be breaking the law if I decided to sprinkle cinnamon around my tomato plants to kill slugs? Or if I add pepperment oil to my sugar syrup because I think it is effective against mites? Or I sprinkle powdered sugar on my bees for mites. Formic acid around my house for spiders. Moth balls in gopher holes. Gasolene on fire ant hills. Hedge apple in my basement for spiders. None of these pesticides are approved now are they? If a farmer or commercial beekeeper did these things it would be illegal because they are _not allowed_ to use any pesticide unless it is approved. 



wildbranch2007 said:


> Additionally, the only fluvalinate pesticide EPA has registered for use in bee hives is found in the pesticide product Apistan. This product is available in the form of strips, not paper towels. Apistan strips, however, are more costly than the liquid fluvalinate pesticide that MDA determined Adee Honey Farm used.


$100 dollars says that this (applying a registered pesticide - not in accordance with the lable) was what got the guy in real trouble. This would apply to a backyarder as well.


----------



## jim lyon

WLC said:


> So, Bret Adee, the leader of the NPDF which is suing the EPA, got caught and fined for using OA, etc.?
> 
> So much for moral authority.
> 
> Now you know why you need to use approved and labeled products only.


I know enough about this story to know its a lot more about the etc. than the oa.


----------



## sqkcrk

Just because you are so small and inconsequential that you can get away w/ doing something illegal doesn't mean it isn't illegal. It just means you got away w/ it.

You know you are breaking the law when you speed, but you do it. Maybe not you, but many. Getting away w/ it doesn't make it right, doesn't make it legal.


----------



## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> You know you are breaking the law when you speed, but you do it. Maybe not you, but many. Getting away w/ it doesn't make it right, doesn't make it legal.


How about this as an analogy? If I was a commerical OTR trucker, I would have to fill out a log book, take a physical exames and pee tests, drive no more than 8 (or however many hours it is), properly placard the load, and any number of other requirements by law.

Why is it then that I can rent a U-Haul truck, drive for 24 hours straight, cross state lines, not stop at weight stations, have residual levels of narcotics in my blood (but not under the influence), and all the time carrying a load of a dangerous chemicals (plastic jugs full of peppermint oil and thymol)? I can do all of that and the DOT cant touch me because it is not against the law; for me. 

Let's assume there are 1000 approved pesticides in the US. That leaves millions of other chemicals that are not approved. What about a dishsoap and vinegar solution to spray aphids for tomatos. Is that illegal too? Why would OA be any different? What about the hedge apples in the basement. Those kill spiders, right? Is there some master data base that says what I can and cant apply as a non-commercial individual. Hedge apples are ok, but OA is not. Where is that written down into law? 

Pesticide laws are applied 2 ways:

1- Dictates what a commercial guy grower, or liscensed exterminator can apply. It is as simple as looking it up on a list.

2- Dictates correct application in accordance to the lable. This applies to _everyone_. They real problem for me was if OA was approved and I didnt apply according to the lable - that would be illegal.


----------



## WLC

My own thoughts are that since U.S. beekeepers had to come up with their own solutions because there was nothing 'approved' available, they pretty much just kept on doing their own thing.

The unlikely event of a fine was the lesser of evils when compared to devastating colony losses.

U.S. Beekeepers really were 'the poor stepsister' of agriculture. But, now that your glass slipper fits...

Things have changed, and MAQS are THE approved organic acid treatment. Organically certified, yet.


----------



## sqkcrk

Nabber86 said:


> How about this as an analogy? If I was a commerical OTR trucker, I would have to fill out a log book, take a physical exames and pee tests, drive no more than 8 (or however many hours it is), properly placard the load, and any number of other requirements by law.
> 
> Why is it then that I can rent a U-Haul truck, drive for 24 hours straight, cross state lines, not stop at weight stations, have residual levels of narcotics in my blood (but not under the influence), and all the time carrying a load of a dangerous chemicals (plastic jugs full of peppermint oil and thymol)? I can do all of that and the DOT cant touch me because it is not against the law; for me.
> 
> Let's assume there are 1000 approved pesticides in the US. That leaves millions of other chemicals that are not approved. What about a dishsoap and vinegar solution to spray aphids for tomatos. Is that illegal too? Why would OA be any different? What about the hedge apples in the basement. Those kill spiders, right? Is there some master data base that says what I can and cant apply as a non-commercial individual. Hedge apples are ok, but OA is not. Where is that written down into law?
> 
> Pesticide laws are applied 2 ways:
> 
> 1- Dictates what a commercial guy grower, or liscensed exterminator can apply. It is as simple as looking it up on a list.
> 
> 2- Dictates correct application in accordance to the lable. This applies to _everyone_. They real problem for me was if OA was approved and I didnt apply according to the lable - that would be illegal.


Except that you are so small in comparison, therefore under the radar so to speak, I don't think that the analogy holds. Analogies often do not. Different rules for truckers and folks nsuch as you are just that, different rules.


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## Acebird

Nabber86 said:


> Gasolene on fire ant hills.


Our DEC does not allow anyone to pour hydrocarbons on the ground. And they get very serious about it.


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## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> Except that you are so small in comparison, therefore under the radar so to speak, I don't think that the analogy holds. Analogies often do not. Different rules for truckers and folks nsuch as you are just that, different rules.


Well lets carefully examine a single scenario.

Here is the MSDS for Dawn Dish Soap: http://www.lakeland.edu/AboutUs/MSDS/PDFs/401/Dawn%20Dish%20Soap%20(Proctor%20&%20Gamble).pdf

And here is one for Heinze Vinegar: http://college.holycross.edu/documents/msds/DISTVINE.HTM

By any acount these 2 products do have hazards associated with them. Are you telling me that it is illegal to mix these ingredients with water and apply the solution to my tomatos to get rid of bug? If so, why?


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> Our DEC does not allow anyone to pour hydrocarbons on the ground. And they get very serious about it.



This is not an EPA/Pesticide issue. It is a state environmental issue. 

Try to stay within the context of the thread.


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## sqkcrk

Nabber86 said:


> Well lets carefully examine a single scenario.
> 
> Here is the MSDS for Dawn Dish Soap: http://www.lakeland.edu/AboutUs/MSDS/PDFs/401/Dawn%20Dish%20Soap%20(Proctor%20&%20Gamble).pdf
> 
> And here is one for Heinze Vinegar: http://college.holycross.edu/documents/msds/DISTVINE.HTM
> 
> By any acount these 2 products do have hazards associated with them. Are you telling me that it is illegal to mix these ingredients with water and apply the solution to my tomatos to get rid of bug? If so, why?


Can't say as I can. Ask me something about something I know about. I think we have said enough. I gotta bottle some honey.

Gotta MSDS on Honey?


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## WLC

Sometimes, there a warning on the bottle not to feed it to infants.


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## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> Can't say as I can. Ask me something about something I know about. I think we have said enough. I gotta bottle some honey.
> 
> Gotta MSDS on Honey?


Well I will back off a little and say that I am _almost_ certain that you can apply non-approved pesticides at home, otherwise all the concotions for homemade pesticides that you see in the organic gardening forums would be illegal. I do not beleive this is this case. 

Here is an MSDS for "Honey Powder" http://www.naturalsourcing.com/msds/MSDS_Honey_Powder.pdf

I am sure that there is an MSDS sheet for liquid honey out there somewhere. They probably need to have keep it on file in large honey packing / wharehousing facilities. After all honey would be an inhalation hazard.


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## wildbranch2007

Nabber86;992806
2- Dictates correct application in accordance to the lable. This applies to [I said:


> everyone[/I]. They real problem for me was if OA was approved and I didnt apply according to the lable - that would be illegal.


the part you are missing, there is a label for OA, I have posted it here before and don't feel like wasting my time. So you are using it in a manner not on the label, big or small, if you are caught, I'm sure the fine will be more than the person in Florida that killed all those bees spraying oranges with a chemical not listed for oranges.


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## Nabber86

wildbranch2007 said:


> the part you are missing, there is a label for OA, .


Are you saying that OA is an approved by the EPA as a pesticide? Not trying to be a jerk by wasting your time, but if you could post the label again, I would like to see it.

Thanks.


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## Oldtimer

When something is registered as a pesticide, it has to be applied as per label.

Nobody will get busted for using powder sugar because it's not registered as a pesticide.. 

Adee may not have had a problem had he not been using the registered product fluvenate illegally.

Anyone been prosecuted for OA, cos it seems like there's many beekeepers using OA quite openly, talking about it, making videos on youtube etc. Any of them getting arrested? Don't see anyone doing the same with fluvenate or tactic, use of that is kept top secret cos they are registered pesticides, there could well be consequences.

Any lawyers? Specialkayme?


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## Nabber86

Oldtimer said:


> When something is registered as a pesticide, it has to be applied as per label.
> 
> Nobody will get busted for using powder sugar because it's not registered as a pesticide..


Right. My question is is OA a registered pesticide? Can any one answer this? If it is not, just as powdered sugar, nobody will get busted for using OA because it's not registered as a pesticide. 

That's my point.


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## WLC

I recall that Les Crowder used creosote or juniper in his smoker to treat for mites.

So, maybe you really don't need OA after all. You could also avoid the label hassle.

I don't think that there's any prohibition to using juniper, etc., as smoker fuel either.


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## Oldtimer

Nabber86 said:


> Right. My question is is OA a registered pesticide? Can any one answer this? If it is not, just as powdered sugar, nobody will get busted for using OA because it's not registered as a pesticide.
> 
> That's my point.


I don't know for your country. But if it's a registered pesticide it says so on the label. If it doesn't say it's a registered pesticide, it isn't. And therefore it's use is not restricted like a registered pesticide is.

Like WLC who treats his hives with lactic acid, it would only become an issue if it showed up in honey being sold at illegal levels. An unlikely prospect in view of the way people (on this thread anyway) are using it.

Would still be interesting to have a definitive statement from a lawyer, such as Specialkayme.


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## Rader Sidetrack

> My question is is OA a registered pesticide? 

See this document:
http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/4070fact.pdf


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## WLC

"Oxalic acid is registered for use as a disinfectant to control bacteria and germs, and as a sanitizer, in toilet bowls, urinals and bathroom premises."

You mean that you're using 'Tidy Bowl' in your hives? 

I don't see where it says it is being used as an acaricide.


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## WLC

I'm using LAB fermented syrup and milk. NOT, lactic acid as a chemical additive. It's a combination of prebiotics and probiotics.

There's enough research to show that it might not only improve colony health, but it also improves wax and honey production.

You could consume this stuff yourself. It smells like buttermilk (which I've never tried. I prefer kefir).


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## Acebird

Nabber86 said:


> Try to stay within the context of the thread.


LOL, Yeah, context of the thread. Real funny.


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## Nabber86

Oldtimer said:


> I don't know for your country. But if it's a registered pesticide it says so on the label. If it doesn't say it's a registered pesticide, it isn't. And therefore it's use is not restricted like a registered pesticide is.
> 
> Like WLC who treats his hives with lactic acid, it would only become an issue if it showed up in honey being sold at illegal levels. An unlikely prospect in view of the way people (on this thread anyway) are using it.
> 
> Would still be interesting to have a definitive statement from a lawyer, such as Specialkayme.


so OA is not registered pesticide; therefore it has not labled and is legal to use.

specialkayme can weigh in, but I would still like to see what the regulations say so we can see for ourselves.


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## Nabber86

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > My question is is OA a registered pesticide?
> 
> See this document:
> http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/4070fact.pdf


"All pesticides sold or used in the United States must be registered by EPA, based on scientific studies showing that they can be used without posing unreasonable risks to people or the environment. "


Interesting. I guess that means that powdered sugar and hedge apples are illegal as well.


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## WLC

It's a pesticide AND a toilet bowl cleaner. 

Get some juniper for your smoker already Nabber. Just don't do it while any honey supers are on.


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## wildbranch2007

what was posted says
Regulatory
History
Oxalic acid first was registered as a pesticide in 1957 for the current
bathroom disinfectant uses, as well as use in swimming pool water systems,
drainage systems, sewage systems, eating establishments (to disinfect
equipment and utensils), and other sites. At present, five products
containing oxalic acid are registered.
*the way I read this is was first registered in 1957 as a pesticide, since 5 products are still registered, its still registered as a pesticide and still has a label, that has to be followed.
you can't use pesticides in your hive that are not registered for use in hives.


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## Daniel Y

Nabber86 said:


> so OA is not registered pesticide; therefore it has not labled and is legal to use.
> 
> specialkayme can weigh in, but I would still like to see what the regulations say so we can see for ourselves.


No Nabber, If you use it as a Pesticide it would have to be registered, approved, labeled etc. it is illegal to use any pesticide that is not. So don't use it as a pesticide, use it as a disinfectant.


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## Daniel Y

WLC said:


> It's a pesticide AND a toilet bowl cleaner.
> 
> Get some juniper for your smoker already Nabber. Just don't do it while any honey supers are on.


Citric acid is a toilet bowl cleaner also. It is in our orange juice as well. Ever seen "Orange Cleaners" they are not for cleaning oranges.


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## Nabber86

Daniel Y said:


> No Nabber, If you use it as a Pesticide it would have to be registered, approved, labeled etc. it is illegal to use any pesticide that is not. So don't use it as a pesticide, use it as a disinfectant.


Alrighty then. When the pesticide police show up in my backyard, I will be "disinfecting my hives".

But that still leaves one question that everyone seems to be avoiding, is powdered sugar illegal if it is used as a pesticide for mites?


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## WLC

I thought that powdered sugar merely knocks the phoretic mites off of the bees? It isn't really a pesticide. It's more like a 'lubricant'.

I do like a dusting of powdered sugar on my French toast.


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## Nabber86

WLC said:


> I thought that powdered sugar merely knocks the phoretic mites off of the bees? It isn't really a pesticide. It's more like a 'lubricant'.




OK, so what about dishsoap and vineger? That kill aphids on plants and I set it out in shallow bowls on my countertop to kill those pesky fruit flies that invade my kitchen this time of year.


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## Acebird

Nabber, I think you are not looking at this correctly. Honey is a food item so if you use a pesticide on a food item it would have to be approved for that use. Now I am sure you are going to say "but I use dish soap and vinegar on my tomatoes before I eat them". You are not using these chemical as a pesticide. The bottom line is you could probably do anything to your hive and big brother will not show up. If you give your honey away to someone and they get sick (assuming it is the honey) then maybe big brother will show up. Laws are written for everybody but there is a reality of enforcement. This has already been said to you, getting away with breaking the law doesn't make it not a law.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

I have read this entire thread and I have come to a conclusion. You guys don't really want to know if a particular treatment is legal or not. If you did, you'd call your local bee inspector and ASK.

Nope. You don't want answers. You just want something to bicker about.

:lpf:


Rusty


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## wildbranch2007

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Nope. You don't want answers. You just want something to bicker about.
> 
> :lpf:
> 
> 
> Rusty


that's my take on it. I only try to show it's illegal, I really don't care what people use on there bees. I just don't want any one to be surprised if they get caught.


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## Stephenpbird

I agree, but the bickering ruined a good thread.


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## Acebird

Stephenpbird said:


> I agree, but the bickering ruined a good thread.


Only if you get involved.

That is like saying if you have a bushel of apples and one is bad the whole bushel is bad.

Send me your bad bushel of apples. I tend to lean from both the bad and the good apple. It sucks to have limitations.


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## rail

Treatment:

1: mechanical (brood break); caged queen or summer splits after honey flow.

2: nucleus; 2 nucleus colonies for each hive.

3: hive crashing; if the colony is showing symptoms of PMS (parasitic mite syndrome), remove them from infected comb and install them onto clean drawn comb or foundation.

4: queen rearing; raise queens with genetic diversity... several mother drone colonies with queens from different regions.


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## hystad

I did an OA dribble in early summer and apivar late summer. Bees have never looked better. I also started feeding sub in July.

I went to my county ag department to get my applicators id to use the apivar. The inspector told me with a smile that I was the only beekeeper using it. I smiled back and said the other beekeepers must not have any mite problems. I also mentioned returning any unused apivar. His reply oh I think you'll use it all. He doesn't care what I do and as long as I don't make him mad he will continue to not care. Moral: make friends with your inspector then it doesn't matter.


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## sqkcrk

You have to have an insecticide applicator's license to use apivar in CA? Maybe your inspector meant that you were the only one using the applicators id.


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## Billthebeekeeper

BEEADDICT said:


> OK with all the different treatments these days what is everyone using for varroa mites and why??


Oxalic acid dribble. 5ml per seam of bees.


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## Rader Sidetrack

> You have to have an insecticide applicator's license to use apivar in CA? 

Mark, see page 2 of this link, (look for "CA Apivar Registration") for an explanation of the applicator license issue.
http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/files/158852.pdf

However, since that article was written, the status of Apivar registration has changed, and since May 2013 it is now legal anywhere in the US without any license. More here:
http://apivar.net/epa-section-3-sta...can-now-be-sold-and-used-anywhere-in-the-u-s/

.


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## sqkcrk

I c. Thanx.


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## nubee

I didn't think my mite situation was a problem until I applied Apiguard. After the first application I was surprised to see how many mites I had. From now on I plan on using Apiguard in the spring and fall. The only conditions are that the daytime temp must be below 90 and the supers must be removed when treating.


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## hystad

It is an applicator's id not licence. The licence requires a test I believe the id is just for tracking purposes. MannLake would not sell it to me in July without the ID.


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## Tony Teolis

My experience over the short but steep learning curve and the knowledge I have gained aided my decision to be extra vigilant of the Varroa Destructor. I have been up close with this creature and I have no problem confronting it in ways that will diminish its hold on any hive. Recently after drop counts with a magnifying lens on the top bar hive (last one standing), powder sugar rolls and drone larvae checks (the confirmation one) I began treating with Api Life Var (Thymol). Today was the last administration but as nature provides, there were too many small hive beetle larvae on the drop count board. I track it all at http://todolisthome.com/?cat=115 Humility and grace.


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## GLOCK

Tried fogging with FGMO till the end of July and did alcohol washes and had high mite counts so switched to OAV and things are about back to low mite counts so glad I switched I'M sure I saved some hives and all my hives are healthy and strong. I told my inspector I was OAV and all's he had to say was how's your mite count.


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## justin

i went through all my hives today, 5 weeks after applying maq's expecting to find a few queen problems. no such luck, bee numbers look great, i put on patties and fed 1/1 sucrose. we had a frost the last 2 nights so robbing will probably be the next issue. justin


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## chickenia

I used powered sugar last year through the summer as well and it did keep the mite count down. In the fall I used HopGuard and was well pleased. This summer I have not had a mite problem and have been surprised! This is my second year as a BK, and I was advised to treat anyway this fall with Apivar, and wish I HAD NOT - plus, I don't like the fact that I can't use the honey if left in the supers with Apivar, HopGuard you can. Plus, I went back into a healthy hive b4 Apivar 2 1/2 weeks later and the queen is GONE. No brood, and only four - five frames of bees. It is too late to raise a queen where I live - so I ended up combining the hive with another new healthy hive. Hoping I did the right thing....actually, it is the only thing I could do....if someone has better ideas....say on  I did the newspaper between the two hives with a drench of a tad of olive oil, 3-4 drops of peppermint in warm water. They are MAD as heck right now too!!! 

I have them in this order: 
from botton up:

#1 10 frame deep
#2 10 frame medium super (it was full of bees)
#3 newspaper
#4 the queenless hive in 10 frame deep with no brood, lots of honey stores
#5 the queenless hive in 10 frame medium with about third capped honey
I have a screened inner cover with fine cane sugar moistened on top as a feeder if they need it right now.

Is there anything I am missing or could improve on???? Thank you SOOoooo much!!!!


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## Gypsi

I'm not treating. 3 week brood break when I pulled all honey and brood for EFB should have knocked them back to zero, especially since I also took all their comb. I will test for mites sometime soon but with my hives struggling to get numbers up, I don't think I will have time or the heart to do more than just check. 2 new queens are laying...


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## mac

WLC said:


> I'm using LAB fermented syrup and milk. NOT, lactic acid as a chemical additive. It's a combination of prebiotics and probiotics.
> 
> There's enough research to show that it might not only improve colony health, but it also improves wax and honey production.
> 
> You could consume this stuff yourself. It smells like buttermilk (which I've never tried. I prefer kefir).


So where can I find info on this???


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## BkprMike

Oldtimer said:


> >>> That's why NZ is running a VSH breeding program.....
> 
> An acquaintance of mine from Perth showed me a possible way of test for VSH tendencies. He takes a frame, or several frames of brood from a hive that has cells that have just been capped over. He picks out a patch of seven (7) cells, marks the cell above the patch and the cell below the patch. Then he takes a pin and as neatly as possible punctures the seven cells and the larvae. He does this for a total of 21 cells, marks each frame so treated, and then replaces the frame(s) back into the hive. Eight (8) hours later he goes back and checks the cells. Those hives that have removed 18 of the 21 cells he considers as having hygienic traits. Those that have cleaned out all 21 cells he considers using as a source of queen mothers for breeding more queens. You can do that for selecting drone producing colonies as well if you so wish.
> 
> MIKE in Lower Alabama, USA


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