# Would drone confinement help?



## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Background info: I'm a TF (since 2005) beekeeper and last spring I raised a few queens (Nicot system) from my best varroa resistant colonies. I used larvae from the queens in only 3 of the most resistant of 13 colonies that came from feral swarms, trap-outs and/or removals. The yield from my 1st ever attempt to raise queens was 7 virgins ready to mate. Also, based on anecdotal evidence and observations (not scientific, mostly natural drop counts) I'm convinced that many of the feral bees in central NC area are resistant to varroa, pms viruses, etc, but lose the resistance over time (probably due to queen replacement) in a managed apiary. 

So I wanted to maximize the odds that the resulting virgins would open mate (I have no AI capabilities) with the feral resistant drones. My idea was to prevent the drones from my apiary from flying during the mating period (I know there are other managed hives within a couple of miles, but beyond my control). To do this I used queen excluder over entrances. 

Only 4 of the 7 successfully mated and 1 of these 4 simply disappeared about 3 weeks after starting egg-laying. The 3 new queens are currently heading thriving colonies. Based on drop counts, 1 colony is virtually mite-free and 2 colonies have average mite loads. There's no evidence of viruses. 

Questions: Would preventing the flying of NON-resistant drones help speed up the creation of a resistant feral population? Is this something we could ask the treatment beekeepers and perhaps the commercial beekeepers to do? Would a coordinated program (involving the release of resistant drones and the confinement of not-resistant drones) implemented nationwide for one are two breeding seasons fix the varroa problem?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you block the drones you block the queens...

I wouldn't worry about it. Odds are good that the queen will fly further than the drones and mate with some other drones anyway.

>Questions: Would preventing the flying of NON-resistant drones help speed up the creation of a resistant feral population? 

I have never found preventing drones from flying to be a practical way to do anything. They will clog up the excluder with dead drones very quickly. Why not requeen if you don't like those genetics?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

A way to significantly reduce the odds of your drones mating is to eliminate them.

Place an empty frame in the brood nest - no foundation at all. The bees will fill it with drone comb. When it is capped, cut it out, into a pail, and then return it to the hive for refill. Feed the drones to chickens or pigs. Repeat every 10-14 days.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

MB: "If you block the drones you block the queens..."
I don't have drones in my mating NUCs with the virgin queens. The drones are in my production colonies and I want to prevent them from passing on their inferior genes.
MB: "I wouldn't worry about it. Odds are good that the queen will fly further than the drones and mate with some other drones anyway."
The odds are that the drones and queens will fly to the nearest DCA and get on with it. Do you have a reference to any research that indicates otherwise?
MB: "I have never found preventing drones from flying ..."
Preventing the drones from leaving the hive will certainly prevent them from mating with my queens or any local feral queens.

Adrian: I'm not interested in wasting time/resources managing the mite load in hives that I will allow to die anyway. But, I will use the resources to start new hives with varroa resistant traits.

Thanks for your replies!


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

There are several breeding books that talk on how the queens will fly farther than the drones to avoid inbreeding. 

This is why drone colonies are placed away from the yard which contains the unmated queens. I have two drone yards for my queens each a little under 3/4 of a mile away


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The odds are that the drones and queens will fly to the nearest DCA and get on with it. Do you have a reference to any research that indicates otherwise?


Drone abundance, queen flight distance, and the neutral mating model for the honey bee, Apis mellifera. --Taylor, O. R., Jr.; Rowell, G. A. 

http://cabdirect.org/abstracts/19890227324.html;jsessionid=DB1B3D3F153828C43099E7B5DCD12C78

"The results showed that the distribution of queen flight distances differed from the distribution of drone flight distances, with queens flying further than the peak in abundance of drones from their own colony. Where colonies with virgin queens occurred <1600 m from 2 or more other colonies, the queens mated predominantly with drones from these sources rather than drones from their own colonies."


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

db_land said:


> So I wanted to maximize the odds that the resulting virgins would open mate (I have no AI capabilities) with the feral resistant drones. Would preventing the flying of NON-resistant drones help speed up the creation of a resistant feral population? Is this something we could ask the treatment beekeepers and perhaps the commercial beekeepers to do? Would a coordinated program (involving the release of resistant drones and the confinement of not-resistant drones) implemented nationwide for one are two breeding seasons fix the varroa problem?


If we consider how difficult it seems to be, for an average beekeeper, to raise queens, something like what you mentioned, a large scale drone production would be a good idea. We could even make more breeding progress, by just concentrating in raising drones. Those beekeepers, who can raise queens, they would do it, of course, but the rest, they would just raise drones. A lot, from their best hives. Using excluder to prevent poor drones: there might be some idea, but considering how laborious and unnatural it is, I would forget about it.

The power of haploid drones is very much under valuated in bee breeding. In selecting queens and hives, we make hell of a lot mistakes, because we only see the phenotype. With drones, by the fact that only one set of chromosomes is present, there is much harder and more precise selection taken place.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Thanks Michael and Kamon for the info re queen and drone flying distances for mating. I am new to queen rearing. In the Kansas plains study the mating NUCS and drone donor hives were arranged in a straight line in wide open spaces ... I don't question the conclusions drawn in that experiment. In Joe Horner's system (reference below) his 12 drone donor hives are within a "stones throw" of the target mating NUCs. But in his case his operation is in a valley and sometimes the entire valley becomes the DCA. Seems to me, the distance and direction flown by both queens and drones depends on several conditions such as landscape layout, time of day, weather (like temp, wind, etc). 

Reference: ABJ, volume 153 no. 8, August 2013 "The Buzz Down Under Part VI Joe Horner's Closed Mating Season by William Blomstedt.

Juhani: In my particular case the good drones (naturally mite resistant genetics) comprise the surrounding feral population; the non-resistant drones are in my hives and the hives of other beekeepers in the area. My hypothesis is that if I confine my drones and can get my fellow beeks to confine their drones during the few days that my virgin queens will be flying to mate, the mating will be most likely to occur with the resistant feral drones --- effectively transmiting the natural varroa mite/virus resistant genetics into my operation. 

Ergo: If thousands of mite resistant drone colonies were strategically located throughout beekeeping areas of Finland during the peak weeks of mating season and all other drones confined/eliminated during this same period, the resistant genetics would dominate. Do this for 2 or 3 seasons and all varroa mite treatment could likely be stopped.

Thanks


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## beebreeder (Nov 24, 2009)

Juhani: In my particular case the good drones (naturally mite resistant genetics) comprise the surrounding feral population; the non-resistant drones are in my hives and the hives of other beekeepers in the area. My hypothesis is that if I confine my drones and can get my fellow beeks to confine their drones during the few days that my virgin queens will be flying to mate, the mating will be most likely to occur with the resistant feral drones --- effectively transmiting the natural varroa mite/virus resistant genetics into my operation. 

DB and Juhani
I do not know what its like in your respective countries but the chances of getting that degree of co-operation between beekeepers in the uk is very slim, I know some queen breeders that have queens of a certain line that want to maintain that line actually give quens free to their neighbours to try and maintain the genetics in a given area but the uk is very small compared to the US


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

beebreeder: I know most (if not all) of the beekeepers within a 5 mile radius of my apiaries. None of them are commercial or even large sideliners; some are more like "bee havers"; I think all are concerned about the welfare of bees. A program whereby a coordinated effort is made to confine/eliminate our non-resistant hive drones while flooding the area with a diversified mix of varroa mite resistant drones during a limited time period (1 or 2 weeks?) when genetically mite resistant virgin queens are released for mating would be feasible --- especially if such a program was offered/promoted by reputable scientist and breeders. For example, one approach might be for breeders to supply each beekeeper in a limited/defined area with a 3 lb package of resistant drones and 2 or 2 resistant virgin queens ready for mating. The beekeepers would provide the queenless mating NUCs and coordinate the confinement/release based on local conditions. Once established, I think the resistant genetics would take over an area quickly and possibly snowball into adjacent areas.

Do you think any queen breeders could be talked into trying something like this?


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## beebreeder (Nov 24, 2009)

We have such a project in the UK, its being done slightly differently but with the same aim, I know Ron well and he spends countless hours in this project, have a look at this website to see what he is up to http://www.swindonhoneybeeconservation.org.uk/About Us.html


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

beebreeder said:


> My hypothesis is that if I confine my drones and can get my fellow beeks to confine their drones during the few days that my virgin queens will be flying to mate, the mating will be most likely to occur with the resistant feral drones


That would work just fine, if drones stayed with the same hive, but, they dont. They drift from hive to hive. If your drones have been flying for a week or two, there is just as much chance you will be trapping the feral drones in your hive, and the bad ones, will be happily flying from the feral hives. I read an interesting paper, where drones in 4 colonies were all marked, each colony with a different color. After a week, open it up and see what color drones were in which hives, and it was pretty much an even mix.


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## beebreeder (Nov 24, 2009)

I have done that myself, apiary only had eight colonies in it, on inspection I pulled the drone comb in one on emergence day and marked drones green as they emerged, the following week every colony had green drones in it so yes i agree drone drifting is a problem


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

I agree about the drone drifting problem. I would need to somehow trap/prevent the non-resistant drones from ever leaving their hive and also stimulate more drone rearing in the resistant hives. This could get labor intensive unless there's some kind of drone trap device external to the hive that traps the drone on it's 1st attempt to leave the hive).

beebreeder: Thanks for the Swindon Honeybee Conservation Group link. They are clearly succeeding with this concept and it sounds like they have already made substantial progress. Implemented on a large scale, the spread of varroa resistant genetics would occur rapidly. I would be worried about genetic diversity in the Swindon project case -- maybe some of the large queen breeders could help with that.


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## beebreeder (Nov 24, 2009)

The trouble with trying to trap in drones in any strong colony is that when they have the instinct to fly they just all pile out together and can block the hive entrance, here because they are not very resiliant they just die trying to get out, we had this happen on an association colony that had a pollen trap on and the drones just could not escape, the colony nearly melted down with the lack of airflow due to the blocked entance


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Back in Henry Alley's day they had a drone trap that had an excluder on the front (that kept them from leaving) and a "trap" area above the exit that they would go up into trying to get out and they would get trapped there. The current entrance guards for sale do not seem to have that chamber to trap them. My experience is the same as beebreeder's. They just clog the excluder that is on the entrance. You can give them a bit more room by putting the excluder on the bottom (and, of course, one above the brood nest) but they still clog up and have to be cleaned out almost every day.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

beebreeder said:


> The trouble with trying to trap in drones in any strong colony is that when they have the instinct to fly they just all pile out together and can block the hive entrance, here because they are not very resiliant they just die trying to get out, we had this happen on an association colony that had a pollen trap on and the drones just could not escape, the colony nearly melted down with the lack of airflow due to the blocked entance


Aren´t you using Dartmoor station?


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

So I would need to invent a drone trap that is external to the hive and that captures the drones as they exit the hive in such a way as to not block the hive entrance/exit. I assume most queen breeders (who are trying to achieve pure queens and/or queens with specific genetic traits) use II and/or isolated (from unwanted drones) mating apiaries and/or flooding the mating apiary location with their desired drones and/or some combination(s) of all of these approaches? Do breeders sometimes share/use the same isolated mating apiaries? Thanks


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would only keep queens I would want to mate from. Then you don't have to worry about it.

Here are some pictures of the real deal:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?240807-Primitive-Queen-Bee-Trap


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

db_land said:


> Do breeders sometimes share/use the same isolated mating apiaries? Thanks


In Europe there all dozens of mating stations, which are used by various race clubs and associations. For instance in the Baltic see, near the south coast, there are lots of islands, couple miles from the continent used for this purpose. To use such a mating station together with other beekeepers, is a very good idea. Doing it alone (as I) is quite expensive and requires a lot of work per queen.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

MB: Thanks much for the link to a drone trap --- I think this is what I need for limiting the unwanted drones during mating and these appear easy to make. If all I had were queens producing drones with the varroa resistant genetics, I would not need to trap the "bad" drones. But, out of 10 hives maybe 4 have the needed mite resistance. Out of the 4, after very careful analysis of how they are handling the mites, I will graph queens from 2. To the extent possible, these virgin queens will be mated with the feral drone population which appears to be thriving in spite of the varroa mites, etc. 

In case anyone doesn't know about this, there is a new iPhone/ipad app that maps the location of feral hives. I found a link to a web site regarding this subject on the NCSU Apiculture site discussing Dr. Delaney's project. The link is www.SaveTheHives.com. The app author is Ronnie Bouchon, a friend, but I have not financial interest.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

db_land said:


> I think this is what I need for limiting the unwanted drones during mating and these appear easy to make.


What are you intending to do, put it on in the spring when the first drone brood is seen, and leave it on until you finnish queen rearing?


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Yes --- unfortunately, at this point, that appears to be the only way to eliminate the undesirable drone genetics from mating. If I could neuter the drones as they leave the hive, that would accomplish the same thing, but I don't know of a way to do that.

Another approach would be to flood the mating area with drones having the desired genetics, but I don't have the resources to produce the needed quantities and I don't think package bee providers sell 3 or 4 lb packages of mite resistant drones.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Move the hives away with the undesirable drones, leaving the good ones, trying to confine drones for most of a season is not good..


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## beebreeder (Nov 24, 2009)

Just another idea DB, do you have anyone within range of you that does have resistant colonies, if so could you do a deal and take droneless mating nucs with virgin queen to them for mating, just an idea


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## beebreeder (Nov 24, 2009)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Aren´t you using Dartmoor station?


Juhani, I have been full of intention to use Dartmoor, the excellent beekeeper that has the permissions to use it has offered but its about 145 miles from me and unfortunately I do a full time job as well as keep bees, I have the boxes, breeder queens but as of last year not the time, this year well hopefully if the offer is still open


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Aren´t you using Dartmoor station?


 Sherberton on Dartmoor, i use this place and another for isolated matings.


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## beebreeder (Nov 24, 2009)

beekuk said:


> Sherberton on Dartmoor, i use this place and another for isolated matings.


You don't know how lucky you are with a choice of isolated sites in this little country Beekuk


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

To test possible mating station locations:

Make ready 5 mating units, food, bees, virgin queen, but be sure that there are no drone bees. Take them to the location been tested and wait 3-4 weeks. If there are no laying queens after this period and the weather has been normal (couple of sunny days too), the place is excellent. I would say, that even if there is one (1/5) queen laying, the location is good for isolated matings.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

What are the criteria mite-resistant queen breeders use to evaluate/select queens/colonies for further breeding and/or as drone/queen source colonies? Mr. Ron Hoskins (Swindon Honeybee Conservation Group) uses the following approach: Collect and closely examine on a daily basis the hive debris found on the SBB insert. Examine with a amgnifier and or dissecting microscope. Look for damaged mites from bee bites; look for removed bee-larvae parts (antenae, etc); look for baby/immature mites among the debris.

I would like to hear what other breeders use as mite-resistant selection criteria. Thanks


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

db_land said:


> What are the criteria mite-resistant queen breeders use to evaluate/select queens/colonies for further breeding and/or as drone/queen source colonies? Mr. Ron Hoskins (Swindon Honeybee Conservation Group) uses the following approach: Collect and closely examine on a daily basis the hive debris found on the SBB insert. Examine with a amgnifier and or dissecting microscope. Look for damaged mites from bee bites; look for removed bee-larvae parts (antenae, etc); look for baby/immature mites among the debris.
> 
> I would like to hear what other breeders use as mite-resistant selection criteria. Thanks


From 2001 to 2008, while we were gradually diminishing the treatment, breeder queens and drone lines were selected from the best hives with the lowest mite counts(dropped with oxalic acid).
From 2009 on they have been selected from the best hives with the lowest mite counts (measured by sugar roll).

Emphasis has been survival, that is for sure. Not much more criteria is possible. In one time, I thought, that this was leading to extreme angriness, but later it was discovered that this was a phenomena caused by the huge mite loads, the bees were having then. Afterwards their behavior has normalized. 
Care has been taken to take grafts from various lines (=origins), to keep the variation as wide as possible. Some breeders have been selected, because they have special(=near extinction) mother or father.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

DB - I run both I.i. queens and open-mated queens. I send my best queens and drones off to an I.I. service in special cages that hold individual queens separate with their own supply of queen candy, and about 200 drones and 200 attendant worker bees in a communal cage with about 8 holes (7/8" diameter x 7/8" deep) of queen candy for the drone chamber.

My drone colonies that are "close, but not the very best" go into a drone flooding area that I encourage other beekeepers to use for open mating. I place the queens between the drone colonies about 1 mile apart (it's a long canyon, so 2 drone stations and 1 queen station work out). I kill drones with unwanted traits - I stick a fork into the side of the drone comb and pull the drone larvae out. I trap unwanted drones above the excluder with no exits. They do die eventually. I re-queen these colonies for more desirable traits. Some bad ones always show, but that's open-mating for you. Just let them draw comb until you have better queens for the colony and do the deed. Open mating requires raising LOTS MORE queens and lots more selection / elimination than I.I.

Guess which bees usually turn out to be the best producers! Mostly the I.I colonies, but occasionally a swarm or an open-mated colony show some traits very worth promoting in the next round. As I grow my apiary, more and more I.I colonies will dominate the yard. 

I'm trying to get set up to do the I.I myself. I have built the stage apparatus from inexpensive, off-the-shelf parts, but still need a Harbo syringe and a stereo microscope. I'm getting ready to move up near U.C. Davis to take Dr. Susan Cobey's classes.

Good luck to you.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Kamon Reynolds said:


> There are several breeding books that talk on how the queens will fly farther than the drones to avoid inbreeding.
> 
> This is why drone colonies are placed away from the yard which contains the unmated queens. I have two drone yards for my queens each a little under 3/4 of a mile away


how do you know which direction??


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

kilocharlie said:


> I'm trying to get set up to do the I.I myself. I have built the stage apparatus from inexpensive, off-the-shelf parts, but still need a Harbo syringe and a stereo microscope. I'm getting ready to move up near U.C. Davis to take Dr. Susan Cobey's classes.
> 
> Good luck to you.


Chinese make quite good stereo microscopes, mine is from a web shop, about 100$. Only 4-10x enlargements are needed, if I recall. My friend Kari Pirhonen used to make devices, he even sold some sting hooks (with hole) to some famous researcher in US(was it Cobey??). It is a tricky thing to make that hole... He is in Columbia at the moment, and his net pages did not seem to work, but here is one small picture: http://www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/page9.html


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Big THANK YOU, Juhani!!! I am holding off the stereo microscope until I have taken some classes and have some time behind them. I could machine one, too, but I am not a lens grinder. Have you seen any CO2 systems cheaper than $180 US dollars? I can get that price from Harbor Freight Tools here in California - a 20 US Gallon bottle tank ($98) and a regulator ($79).

gmcharlie - (quote - How do you know which direction? - unquote) 
2 answers: 

1) The simple answer is that it does not matter, the bees will choose their own or an existing DCA (Drone Congregating Area). 

2) Talk your bee club members into a project identifying DCA's, using a virgin queen in a lightweight cage and a bunch of helium balloons on a fishing rod, flying the VQ up 30 to 100 feet every 1/2 mile around the county (a *BIG* map helps) between 11 am and 2 pm (It takes some time and effort!) You should be able to see the "comet" of drones around the virgin queen in the cage (It might help to bring along a pair of young eyes...) When you know the locations of all the mating areas, you can take advantage of them (if all you want is THAT they mate, not concerned with stock improvement too much) by placing your queen open-mating boxes 1/2 to 3/4 mile downwind from the DCA, 

OR:

Once you have your DCA map of your county, choose an area WITH NO DCA's for a 10 mile radius for a drone flooding project. This latter method is preferable if you are trying to accomplish stock improvement - only flood with drones with desirable traits, kill those with undesirable traits and re-queen those not-so-good colonies with "good" queens. It is recommended that you have a minimum of 100 hives with desirable traits for drone flooding, but you could try it with fewer and hope for a few good matings. Careful grading of colonies' traits and record keeping is necessary, and such a less-than-ideal open-mating situation should be augmented by buying about half of your queens from a different breeder each year.

If the whole bee club has enough drone colonies, and these have desirable traits, I would choose a drone flooding project, even with as few as 25 drone colonies. The technique improves drastically with more drone colonies (and less feral colonies), but so does the amount of work. You have to keep the "bad" drones out.

One more thing to mention - start with the best bees you can get. It takes several decades of dedicated work to improve a stock with open mating & drone flooding, whereas controlled matings using Instrumental Insemination (I.I.) makes genetic progress toward a goal every round, up to 4 generations a year, and is much faster.

Good luck!


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

kilocharlie said:


> Have you seen any CO2 systems cheaper than $180 US dollars? I can get that price from Harbor Freight Tools here in California - a 20 US Gallon bottle tank ($98) and a regulator ($79).











My CO2 bottle is from a company which sells and maintains all kinds of pressurized gas bottles. This small bottle, maybe 1/2 litre, was obviously going of the market, they sold the used bottles with 10€. The regulator was maybe 50€, but it is not very good, it is very sensitive to adjust and even if you adjust it correctly, it tends to slow down and suddenly your queen is kicking again... The gas is going through a used baby food glass jar with some water on bottom.


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## pihlpet (Nov 3, 2011)

Kari also has a picasaweb gallery. There are some pictures of his device and some videos of collecting semen and inseminating queens.
https://picasaweb.google.com/112336832527150868076/Mehi

Regards,
Peter


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

pihlpet said:


> Kari also has a picasaweb gallery. There are some pictures of his device and some videos of collecting semen and inseminating queens.
> https://picasaweb.google.com/112336832527150868076/Mehi
> 
> Regards,
> Peter


Great Pihlpet to remember this! There are some very close up videos too. Did Kari make a device for you?


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Yeeesh, sure wouldn't want to be one of his virgin queens. Yikes!


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## pihlpet (Nov 3, 2011)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Great Pihlpet to remember this! There are some very close up videos too. Did Kari make a device for you?


Well, good question, actually my device is copied from him though im using his handles, perforated stinghook and some smaller parts. So the answer is that he made some details of the device for me.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

pihlpet said:


> perforated stinghook and some smaller parts.


 Have you tried a ruby sting hook, i find them to be quite good.


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## pihlpet (Nov 3, 2011)

beekuk said:


> Have you tried a ruby sting hook, i find them to be quite good.


No, i have not tried the ruby sting hook. I have used Kari's perforated stinghook made of silver. This year i was trying out Schley's pressure grip forceps. It is a good feature to release the sting after the capillary is inserted and in right position. According to Schley it should give more "seal". As for time consumption, i have not noticed a signifficant difference between perforated hook and forcepts. Sometimes it's faster with perforated hook and sometimes it's faster with forcepts, i still find the average almost the same.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Yes the the metal part of the ruby sting hooks are also silver, and i have some normal steel ones. I don't have the pressure forceps, but have tried those of others on a couple of occasions, like yourself, i did not find a great deal of difference in time.

I also use the Swienty apparatus, that is not so popular with many, but it is what i originally learnt to use, so find i can use it faster now than the Schley type apparatus which i have tried.


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## beebreeder (Nov 24, 2009)

There is one thing that care needs to be used when using the forceps, if they are adjusted incorrectly the sting can be damaged leading to the queen being superceded


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