# "I Don't Know"



## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

..are those outside the typical and normal survival characteristics that most colonies apply. Most colonies have a standard set of survival traits that apply to build-up, swarming, resupply, protection of winter stores,and fall preps-in that order. (Problems with incoming forage, pests, disease, inept queens, not withstanding.) Some healthy and robust colonies still do something radical and rare. When the beginner beek encounters one of these wacko situations of fringe genetics he comes to beesource for help. Those of us with some experience have not ever seen this condition, and fail to respond.

The thread slides across the table and falls off the other side without a good answer. Another beginner may take a flyer and guess, or relate a similar occurrence, but it ends there.

Point is, somebody has to get this colony of fringe genetics. What I am suggesting here is that we use this dodge of fringe genetics on occasion to answer the OP and not leave him feeling ignored. If we've not ever seen the condition described, somebody should say so. None of us have seen it all.

Walt


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

Walt - I agree with your post, but somewhat confused as to your reason for posting. I'm on here constantly and see many posts about nearly everything coming and going, but see nearly none with no replies. Have you noticed that there are those that aren't getting a reply or is it that they are getting wrong answers in those replies?

Please explain a bit better the background for your concern..


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



wcubed said:


> When the beginner beek encounters one of these wacko situations of fringe genetics he comes to beesource for help.


Would you have an example?


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

Walt,
I haven't seen the condition described.
River


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Acebird said:


> Would you have an example?



Sorry but not enough coffee yet in my awakening brain to comprehend where this is going? May I reiterate ACES question? 

What do you mean by "fringe?" 

1. Bees with 8 legs?.. 10 wings? 
2. Bees that tote handguns to eliminate bear and skunk issues?
3. The occasional purple eyed drone?
4. Bees that washboard horizontally?
5. Drones out at night with flashlights looking for skanky queens?

Has anyone seen where i placed my 4th cup of coffee????

Further clarification would be mighty helpful.


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## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

Love it........ skanky queens


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## Luv2beekeep (Dec 11, 2011)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

I think what he is trying to say is that there are new people who get on bee source and ask a question and only get one or two or no response and the question does not get answered. Or the new person who poses a question in good faith and then gets blasted for asking such a stupid question. No questions are stupid to the person asking them.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Luv2beekeep said:


> I think what he is trying to say is that there are new people who get on bee source and ask a question and only get one or two or no response and the question does not get answered.



I think when you see this happening it's due to the framework of the question. Many questions are raised with VERY little information and it's nearly impossible to respond in depth when the question is not clearly defined. 

I think Walt is getting at something else, I'm sure he will clarify.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Riverderwent said:


> Walt,
> I haven't seen the condition described.
> River


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

I checked my hive last night just before sunset? This morning when I got up I strolled by the hive and saw no activity. SOOO I opened it up. There was not one single bee in the hive. No dead, no live, Just empty frames, some capped brood , but otherwise empty. What happened to my bees?

with all my years of beekeeping experience, There is no way to answer this other than a WAG. I would probably overlook it feeling there is something wrong here, some information is missing. But what else could the poster have added, seems not much more could be added, but what could you say. Newbees may add some input, or a guess or two. This post would fade into obscurity and be forgotten by all but the poster, who may feel slighted of put off. 

I may be off base. But I thing this is what wcubed was referring to what could you attribute such a odd occurrence to so we will call them Fringe genetics.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



wcubed said:


> What I am suggesting here is that we use this dodge of fringe genetics on occasion to answer the OP and not leave him feeling ignored. If we've not ever seen the condition described, somebody should say so. None of us have seen it all.
> 
> Walt


Like others, not exactly sure what you're suggesting, but my guess is: we are proving our "best guess" to a situation of what has been conveyed in *writing* by someone who perhaps is very *inexperienced *in observing unusual conditions in a colony. If so Walt, what else do you suggest we do? Internet mentoring has limitations.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

As a newb, I'll go as far as to try to answer questions if I'm familiar with the subject. And if I'm wrong, I would hope that others (and some have) added to my comment or corrected my comment. Afterwards, I'm not sitting in the corner pouting, but instead feel grateful for the help. My point is that, good information is only as good as the person it is given to. I have seen a few jokes made here and there, but nothing that would push people away, if that's what is meant.


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## newbury (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Honey-4-All said:


> Sorry but not enough coffee yet in my awakening brain to comprehend where this is going? May I reiterate ACES question?
> 
> What do you mean by "fringe?"
> 
> ...


ROFLMAO!

What's in your coffee?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Tenbears said:


> There was not one single bee in the hive. No dead, no live, Just empty frames, some capped brood , but otherwise empty. What happened to my bees?
> I may be off base. But I thing this is what wcubed was referring to what could you attribute such a odd occurrence to so we will call them Fringe genetics.


Maybe but how often do those go without a reply? We see these posts all the time. Someone suggests photos. Somebody asks about stores, clusters and mites. Pretty cut and dried....sometimes the op never follows up but otherwise they all seem to get some initial replies, don't they?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

dr, 
I was merely suggesting that someone come up on the thread and SAY that's a strange occurrence and not a normal colony reaction. It's OK not to know everything. Some folks have trouble with an "I don't know" response.

No, I don't have a ready example, and yes, it happens. I remember a thread that had been inactive for 2 weeks with a couple wild guesses. I responded - just to keep to keep up the beesource image.
Walt


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



wcubed said:


> dr,
> I was merely suggesting that someone come up on the thread and SAY that's a strange occurrence and not a normal colony reaction. It's OK not to know everything. Some folks have trouble with an "I don't know" response.
> Walt


Ok, that brings up a question on forum etiquette in these situations. Would you say it would be more acceptable Not to say anything if a person didn't know what the appropriate response should be to a question, or an "I don't Know".

Here's what I mean.. Someone is browsing through the posts and notices one and reads it. Even if said person doesn't know the answer, should they go ahead and post an "I don't know" type response, or leave it be and hope someone else comes along with the correct answer? By posting the I don't know it would again push the question to the top of the new posts if someone were to post that.. Possibly getting better attention from someone in the know..


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Tenbears said:


> I checked my hive last night just before sunset? This morning when I got up I strolled by the hive and saw no activity. SOOO I opened it up. There was not one single bee in the hive. No dead, no live, Just empty frames, some capped brood , but otherwise empty. What happened to my bees?


I know the answer to this: you looked at different hives last night and this morning... the fringe stuff is often "I am missing something, what?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

beyond just saying 'i don't know', a seasoned veteran posting that in his/her experience that the observation was a very strange occurrence and they didn't have an explanation for it would be meaningful to me.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

I use the word "fringe" in the sense of the normal bell curve distribution of bee characteristics. Most colonies behave within a given range, but some genetically fall outside the range of normal on the skirts of the bell. Multiple mating is reported to be beneficial, generally, but sometimes the genetics stack up in such a way the the results are undesirable or irregular. Hence fringe. We need to recognize irregular is normal. ??
Walt


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

This sounds like an esoteric dialog about a nonexistent problem.
Sorry....but that's how I see it.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

time to unsubscribe from this.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

When I don't know the answer to a particular scenario I simply don't respond. If I feel I can shed some light onto their issue I will provide some input. Sometimes others reply, which kicks off a whole new thought process and leads to my input. This is just kind of how beesource works for me, which is pretty darn good in my opinion. SAve a few members who Can't seem to monitor themselvEs. 

"We need to recognize irregular is normal." Sorry Walt, but no. Irregular is irregular. Things can be confusing enough, don't you agree?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



mathesonequip said:


> time to unsubscribe from this.



More than that? How about pour me another cup of coffee? Triple caffeine on this one please as I will be up a looooooooooooong time trying to sort this thread out. 

So we are trying to figure out the answers to the edge? Why? Are we trying to push them to the middle or just eliminate them? 

Beekeeping skill in dealing with the fringe is directly proportional to your lifetime sample size.

The best way for you to sort this out is purchase and run a 50,000 hive operation. After about 25 years of dealing with the anomalies apparent in that quantity you will have the answers regarding any left or right fringe in your back pocket.

Some questions can only be answered with experience!!! Once you deal with that many hives you will have no more questions besides wondering who the next fool it is that you can offload such an behemoth of a headache onto!!!


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

Can a OP unsubscribe?

Where I headed with this is just to remind respondents that irregularities are sometimes genetic and we shouldn't always assume that the inexperienced beginner is at fault. Have seen posts that I would consider to be badgering the OP, and think that inappropriate. 

Walt


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



wcubed said:


> When the beginner beek encounters one of these wacko situations of fringe genetics he comes to beesource for help. Those of us with some experience have not ever seen this condition, and fail to respond.





wcubed said:


> dr,
> I was merely suggesting that someone come up on the thread and SAY that's a strange occurrence and not a normal colony reaction. It's OK not to know everything. Some folks have trouble with an "I don't know" response.





wcubed said:


> Where I headed with this is just to remind respondents that irregularities are sometimes genetic and we shouldn't always assume that the inexperienced beginner is at fault. Have seen posts that I would consider to be badgering the OP, and think that inappropriate.


Sorry Walt...the magic of the internet. You can't just blow off your earlier posts. First it was fail to respond. Now you want to make it a complaint about badgering an inexperienced beekeeper. I understand that you'd like to erase the earlier stuff....it just doesn't work that way. Best thing.....move on.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

Now, you're badgering me. It's OK. I earned it.
Walt


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## newbury (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



beemandan said:


> This sounds like an esoteric dialog about a nonexistent problem.
> Sorry....but that's how I see it.


It seems to me it's very pertinent for newbies like me to understand how the forum flows.
I would like to see responses such as "I've been keeping bees for x years and have never seen that" and also requests for more pertinent info.
That helps me to distinguish between rare occurrences and common plus what type info the board likes to see.\


Honey-4-All said:


> More than that? How about pour me another cup of coffee? Triple caffeine on this one please as I will be up a looooooooooooong time trying to sort this thread out.
> 
> So we are trying to figure out the answers to the edge? Why? Are we trying to push them to the middle or just eliminate them?
> 
> ...


But that is what we are trying to do on this forum. Taking the collective experience of all with all their hives and years and figure out what's in the range of normal. A hundred years ago we would have asked a neighbor or have gone to the library, now we can also come here and ask stupid questions.
A few "never heard of that" with an occasional "did you check such and such" helps those of us that didn't ask the question but may face the same occurence in the future.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

I think it absurd to believe that because one doesn't know the answer to a bee question that it must be "fringe genetics". There is no such a thing. 

Just why do you think that for every beekeeping question there are multiple answers? Because all colonies are individuals, just like dogs and cats and human beings. Do you honestly believe in human fringe genetics? Then why are there FG in bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

I'm thinking in the back of Walts mind he is thinking of people who describe a problem or behaviour that doesn't really exist and ask a question, what caused it, what should I do, etc.

Everybody else knows the question cannot be answered because it's actually the OP's powers of observation that are at fault. So rather than not answer at all, or say the guy is wrong in some way, he could be told this is unusual genetics, never been seen before.

These threads crop up from time to time I won't reference any cos that would make an example of some specific person. But the kind of thing is when someone says for example, my hive died could it have been CCD? Pretty much everyone thinks not cos it's doubtful if CCD actually exists and the answers given reflect that. But the OP raises objections to all the answers, except ones saying it was CCD, so the OP steers the thread in the direction until he gets the answer he wanted.

Another common one is My bees are all dead, why? Further questioning gets the OP to describe the scenario, and it fits exactly death by mites. But the OP dismisses any answers pointing at mites because he read some Idiots Guide book and has been convinced his bees could not possibly ever get mites and after all, he did not see very many. Other answers are accepted until he decides it was aircraft lay lines.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

I fitted all of my bees with tiny armor and tiny spears so even though I only have one hive I KNOW they don't have mites. 

On a side note I do believe that there *could* be fringe genetics, after all that is how almost all domestic animals have been made, by isolating a rare gene or sets of genes and preserving them......._HOWEVER_, the way honey bee genetic work it would be a flash in the pan and one would likely never notice it considering each hive as so many sires adding to the genetic diversity.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Oldtimer said:


> Pretty much everyone thinks not cos it's doubtful if CCD actually exists and the answers given reflect that.


CCD was a term given to a larger than expected die off of commercial hives where the owners panicked and wanted government help. And now you want to say it didn't or doesn't exist? I think that is fringe logic.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

When the government financial assistance faded away, so did the disease. Perhaps CCD was fringe genetics Ace?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



wcubed said:


> Now, you're badgering me. It's OK. I earned it.
> Walt


You're a good man Walt.
And I was badgering you a bit...wasn't I?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



newbury said:


> I would like to see responses such as "I've been keeping bees for x years and have never seen that" and also requests for more pertinent info.


I see replies like this all the time. They usually are more like 'I've only had bees a couple of years but haven't seen anything like that.' As a newbie you're unlikely to describe anything that a beekeeper with decades of experience hasn't seen already....in my opinion.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Oldtimer said:


> But the OP dismisses any answers pointing at mites because he read some Idiots Guide book and has been convinced his bees could not possibly ever get mites and after all, he did not see very many.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

Well, The actual fact is very few questions go unanswered. Some 1 or two year beekeeper bursting with new found experience. and fresh in his knowledge, will come up with his version of information assimilated from multiple sources, digested into easy to understand terms and related by "The exact same thing happened to me" and here is how you fix it!


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## Walter Lawler (Apr 12, 2013)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

I'm pretty sure I know what Walt was thinking, maybe not though. When I came on here originally, I knew nothing about bees, other than I had a strong desire to have some hives. I have seen it happen, and it has happened to me, that when I finally screwed up the courage to write my question down, it probably looks like babble with some words looking like a question about bees. Hell they probably still do! That could be the fringe. The other part of that equation is no, few or smart Alec answers. Gents just look at the life this thread took on, and it may have been started about musings. This was started by Walt (bcubed), a high poster and a knowledgeable bee keeper followed up by a lot more high posting also knowledgeable bee keepers. Don't get me wrong, and I am not being critical, nor trying to start a forum free for all. I think most as a rule are "great internet mentors". Just think newbie questions are as important and highly technical to us as in depth husbandry are to you. This is just my personal 

observations not necessarily shared by management.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

Unless you are one of the 1% who picks stuff up magically without much time on the job the worlds best teacher is time x quantity.... 

When you have the experience under your belt or in your brain the fringe moves to the middle. Have an oddball situation.. No big deal. Seen it a thousand times before. 

A newbee can not say that... The only way to push the fringe to the middle is experience..........


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Acebird said:


> CCD was a term given to a larger than expected die off of commercial hives where the owners panicked and wanted government help. And now you want to say it didn't or doesn't exist? I think that is fringe logic.


A "term", a "name". Calling something a "disorder" or "disease" implies that there is some identifiable cause that can be isolated, and perhaps "cured".

But, if someone imagines something exists, and gives "it" a name, does it truly exist?

Unicorns, fairies, elves, Santa Claus, gods and goddesses of various types from religions...all these "thing" have "names". But do these things _really_ exist? Does giving "something" a "name", cause it to magically appear?

Is it "fringe logic" to deny the existence of something that does not actually appear to exist, despite the fact that someone "names" it?

On topic: There are many people here with much more experience than I have, if I don't know the answer, and do not feel qualified to offer an opinion or hypothesis, I generally don't post in response. A hundred posts of "Duh, idunno" do not seem particularly helpful.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

Fringe genetics seems to be a rather ambiguous term to describe happenings that dont fall in the middle of the Bell Curve of expectations. Ambiguous because the driving mechanism may not be genetic at all but a combination of weather events, beekeeper input, pestilence and many etc.s but may also include genetic inclinations of different bee races.

A long time beekeeper would be more likely to give better descriptions and use common terminology for observed events. People new to the game can have trouble knowing the right questions to ask. I think they will usually get helped out. 

If they appear to claim conditions that no one has experienced they will have a hard sell for their story. If they are also pushing a theory parallel to something like, "they know the waving tree limbs makes the wind blow", then they wont convince many people to examine the possibility of fringe genetics in the bees. Personal idiosyncrasy may be the go to explanation!

What is the solution?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

Man... you guys are mean... I kind of hate to jump in when we've already established that y'all have no mercy... but...

I see Walt's point. Sometimes someone writes in with some bee behavior which is something I've never seen. I tend not to respond because I have never seen such a thing before. Occasionally I try to clarify to figure out if there are some extenuating circumstances or some misuse of terminology on the part of the poster. But sometimes it's just not normal bee behavior, so how do you help? Why it is not normal bee behavior could be several things, but mostly bee behavior tends to be genetic. Some bees build up sooner or later in the spring. Some go into winter with more or less bees and these decisions seem to be genetic. How is it so far fetched that perhaps some of these odd really off behaviors are genetic? "...and that's all I have to say about that..."


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## newbury (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Michael Bush said:


> Man... you guys are mean... I kind of hate to jump in when we've already established that y'all have no mercy... but...
> 
> I see Walt's point. Sometimes someone writes in with some bee behavior which is something I've never seen. I tend not to respond because I have never seen such a thing before. <snip>


But if just one or two of you would respond with something like "nope, never seen it check such-and-such and give us a picture" it could give a lot of us dummies more info.

In the wax-dipping-tank-design thread I asked why one had to wax the entire box at one time but have not seen a response yet.

Sometimes a little direction helps.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



newbury said:


> In the wax-dipping-tank-design thread I asked why one had to wax the entire box at one time but have not seen a response yet.


My guess is no one has done it so they can't give you an answer. Not too many folk on this forum wax their boxes and not everyone who does is active every day on the forum............


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

Thanks, MB. Made my day. You have a pretty strong following here on beesource.

Rather than loop in circles, let's try a specific example: A colony swarms itself to death. Have not seen it personally, but the story persists and we have to give it some credibility.The colony keeps on issuing swarms until it runs out of bees and perishes.

The normal format for swarm preparations has several features incorporated to insure survival of the parent colony. Priority 1. If they fail to get the prerequisites accomplished, swarming ambition is canceled for the season.

It seems to me that the colony that swarmed itself to death was operating outside of "normal operation." Will go a step further and call the abnormality a judgement error or a flaw in decision-making. Either are likely genetic in nature.

Walt


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



wcubed said:


> Thanks, MB. Made my day. You have a pretty strong following here on beesource.
> 
> Rather than loop in circles, let's try a specific example: A colony swarms itself to death. Have not seen it personally, but the story persists and we have to give it some credibility.The colony keeps on issuing swarms until it runs out of bees and perishes.
> 
> ...


come on.
can the thread, or you, get any less lucid?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

laferney describe seeing one his colonies 'swarm itself into oblivion' season before last. last year i had a colony set a yard record for issuing five swarms in less than two weeks and then end up queenless when the last virgin failed to get mated.

most of my colonies that have swarmed issued only one, with the occasional colony issuing two. seeing the five was obviously a 'fringe' observation. when i questioned walt about it, his response was 'i don't know how to comment on that, i've never seen that before'.

come on clyde, i'd be happy for you to 'elucidate' what was going on with that one.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



squarepeg said:


> laferney describe seeing one his colonies 'swarm itself into oblivion' season before last. last year i had a colony set a yard record for issuing five swarms in less than two weeks and then end up queenless when the last virgin failed to get mated.
> 
> most of my colonies that have swarmed issued only one, with the occasional colony issuing two. seeing the five was obviously a 'fringe' observation. when i questioned walt about it, his response was 'i don't know how to comment on that, i've never seen that before'.
> 
> come on clyde, i'd be happy for you to 'elucidate' what was going on with that one.


the new guy here on BS, located in coastal CT. last year described his booming hive as swarming multiple times last spring and early summer. it never recovered either.
i've had outyard hives swarm more than twice, but most are once or twice if they get ahead of me.
don't think i'd call it "fringe", would you?
most don't know how many swarms issue from the hive, unless they witness every one.

tighten up the scenario.

"The colony keeps on issuing swarms until it runs out of bees and perishes." I know better and I think you do too.
It perishes from being weak and robbed out, failed mating, beetles, moths etc. 
the colony doesn't "swarm itself to death".


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

i'm able to keep a fairly close watch on mine, but i've only 69 hive-years so far. one out of 69 is about 1.5%. with a bell curve the upper and lower 5% are generally considered outliers. so yes, i consider it a 'fringe' occurrence for me so far.

so why didn't those virgins destroy the extra cells or each other? faulty genetics? a breakdown in traits? i honestly don't have a clue. whatever the reason, the swarmier colonies don't produce much and i end up splitting them up into nucs with new queens. if it is a genetic thing this deselection will hopefully make the occurrence even more fringey over time, at least i hope so.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



clyderoad said:


> "The colony keeps on issuing swarms until it runs out of bees and perishes." I know better and I think you do too.
> It perishes from being weak and robbed out, failed mating, beetles, moths etc.
> the colony doesn't "swarm itself to death".


i can see how this might happen, but it didn't with mine. i ended up shaking out the frame or two of bees that were left allowing them a chance to join up with the other colonies and then redistributed the frames to other hives. the scenario you describe would have no doubt been its fate had i not done otherwise, but the colony had effectively perished by virtue of swarming itself hopelessly queenless with not enough bees to make it worth giving a queen to.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



clyderoad said:


> "The colony keeps on issuing swarms until it runs out of bees and perishes." I know better and I think you do too.
> It perishes from being weak and robbed out, failed mating, beetles, moths etc.
> the colony doesn't "swarm itself to death".


But a parent colony has a greater chance of failing (reasons that you have given) if it swarms a lot. If three swarms are successful and the parent dies it is still a net gain so the genetic trait is not for not.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

I'm not particularly anxious to see a lot of "I don't know" posts that I have to scroll through in hopes of finding some direction. I'd prefer to see "I don't know but could it be............?" answers. At least that would get me thinking a little different about the issue. I'm reminded that the forum frowns on posts like "I agree" or "me too" and a slew of "I don't know" posts are pretty much the same thing.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Acebird said:


> But a parent colony has a greater chance of failing (reasons that you have given) if it swarms a lot. If three swarms are successful and the parent dies it is still a net gain so the genetic trait is not for not.


good point ace. i don't know but it could be that the bees are reacting to some unknown factor in the hive they perceive as bad and are in some kind of hyper-abscond mode.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

>But if just one or two of you would respond with something like "nope, never seen it check such-and-such and give us a picture" it could give a lot of us dummies more info.

I don't want to give the impression I don't believe them. They are most likely telling the truth. So I'm unclear how to help.

>In the wax-dipping-tank-design thread I asked why one had to wax the entire box at one time but have not seen a response yet.

I posted a response just now.

I miss things sometimes. But if I didn't skim through the posts I'd never get anything else done...


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

G


wcubed said:


> Thanks, MB. Made my day. You have a pretty strong following here on beesource.
> 
> Rather than loop in circles, let's try a specific example: A colony swarms itself to death. Have not seen it personally, but the story persists and we have to give it some credibility.The colony keeps on issuing swarms until it runs out of bees and perishes.
> 
> ...


Well, you're assuming that the colony swarms itself to death. Not true. And because you've never seen it happen you think it must be an abnormality and an error in judgement and therefore some kind of fringe genetics. In fact, it happens often enough and the colony doesn't perish. It's one of the ways bees perform and is entirely within their normal genetics. 

As I said earlier, bee colonies are individuals and behave in a wide variety of ways as any individual would. Perhaps not the way you think they should in your preconceived notions, and it may not fit into your dogma, but some do and certainly not some kind of fringe genetics.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

Yeah, when you think of it the fringe genetics are probably more beekeeper induced because a natural hive wouldn't be 7 boxes high and produce 300 pounds of honey without swarming before it got there.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

as a nasa engineer walt's job description included putting forth the 'what if this' and 'how about that's'. i enjoy and respect that walt applies his way of looking at bees and i'm thankful for having been inspired by him to do the same.

it's interesting to note that when the likes of einstein and hawkings began putting forth some of their 'thinking outside the box' ideas most of the push back they received came from those long-timers who were entrenched and invested in their views and didn't appreciate being challenged. just as interesting is that both of those great minds found themselves doing the same thing as the next generation of thinkers came along.

what i like best about this forum is the mostly cordial exchange of the very wide diversity of viewpoints represented here. looking back over the history of beekeeping it's clear to me that the understanding is evolving. there likely is no 'final answer' and perhaps there never will be. therein lies the fascination and the challenge. we really are better off when we know what we don't know.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



squarepeg said:


> just as interesting is that both of those great minds found themselves doing the same thing as the next generation of thinkers came along.


Can't be helped. As we get older we tend to focus on what we did well in the past and resent the new thinkers that obsolete what we did. New life brings new ideas. That's progress. It is best to accept it and pass on what will help and forget about recognition.


----------



## CajunBee (May 15, 2013)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

And yet another useless thread for the beginning beek. :applause:


----------



## IsedHooah (Jan 13, 2015)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



CajunBee said:


> And yet another useless thread for the beginning beek. :applause:


t:


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



squarepeg said:


> looking back over the history of beekeeping it's clear to me that the understanding is evolving. there likely is no 'final answer' and perhaps there never will be.


Excellent thoughts. Beekeeping is a moving target and will continue to evolve. I don't think it will ever be "figured out". As an increasing number of changes are forced upon the honey bees, outcomes and behavior will also evolve. 

I think back to the 70's and just in my short time beekeeping I've seen a dramatic impact on bees from Tracheal Mites, Varroa Mites, Virus's, AHB, Hive Beetles, Agricultural practices, etc. Each one has altered the way bees are kept and I'm sure each factor has weeded out certain genetics that were unable to adapt and handle the new pressures. Unfortunately we may also be losing some very good traits as well when we lose those genetics.

I believe our understanding will be in a constant state of transition. Just when we think we have it figured out, something new comes along and changes everything.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

Did the title of this thread change to "I don't know" recently?
I thought it was originally titled "fringe genetics"? :scratch:

Will Someone explain to me what the heck this thread is about.


----------



## rmaxwell (Apr 23, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



newbury said:


> But if just one or two of you would respond with something like "nope, never seen it check such-and-such and give us a picture" it could give a lot of us dummies more info.
> 
> In the wax-dipping-tank-design thread I asked why one had to wax the entire box at one time but have not seen a response yet.
> 
> Sometimes a little direction helps.



x200!! There are a lot of good folks on here who offer great help and advice but, some threads get a little snippy. Patience and tact doesn't always come with experience and I applaud and thank those who demonstrate both with newbees like me. Sometimes we don't do a good job explaining our issues because we haven't learned all the nomenclature yet.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Mike Gillmore said:


> I think when you see this happening it's due to the framework of the question. Many questions are raised with VERY little information and it's nearly impossible to respond in depth when the question is not clearly defined.
> 
> I think Walt is getting at something else, I'm sure he will clarify.


Not only the frame work, but the foundation. Quite often people ask questions which they don't know enough about to ask in a complete or intelligible way. Often a question is asked and something more is needed to know what the questioner is really asking.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



drlonzo said:


> Ok, that brings up a question on forum etiquette in these situations. Would you say it would be more acceptable Not to say anything if a person didn't know what the appropriate response should be to a question, or an "I don't Know".
> 
> Here's what I mean.. Someone is browsing through the posts and notices one and reads it. Even if said person doesn't know the answer, should they go ahead and post an "I don't know" type response, or leave it be and hope someone else comes along with the correct answer? By posting the I don't know it would again push the question to the top of the new posts if someone were to post that.. Possibly getting better attention from someone in the know..


Gee, drlonzo, I don't know.

Etiquette? I don't know what saying I don't know has to do with etiquette.

"I don't know. Ya got me stumped." I do it.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



BadBeeKeeper said:


> A "term", a "name". Calling something a "disorder" or "disease" implies that there is some identifiable cause that can be isolated, and perhaps "cured".
> 
> Is it "fringe logic" to deny the existence of something that does not actually appear to exist, despite the fact that someone "names" it?


I don't know why you assume that.

CCD has a set of conditions which can be observed and described. Whereas the cause has been difficult to determine. It's not a unicorn or an elf.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



sqkcrk said:


> Not only the frame work, but the foundation. Quite often people ask questions which they don't know enough about to ask in a complete or intelligible way. Often a question is asked and something more is needed to know what the questioner is really asking.


True, Mark but pretty much unavoidable. It is hard to get through that "knowledge threshold" where a beginner has enough knowledge to even ask the right questions to move himself forward. Not everyone gets on the bus at the same spot in regard to parallel knowledge and skill set.

Some people here are rewarded at helping out the really raw beginner (even ones who seem a bit resistant to knowledge) and others do not kick in till more advanced or quirky topics pique their interest. I think it is a pretty comprehensive site. As M. B. says though, some guys here are a bit mean!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Has anything REALLY changed in beekeeping in 150 years? The neophytes think they have stumbled onto something new and different. Those with the most experience seem to respond that "they have seen that, but it is not common" Look at all the new hive designs, look at all the old hive designs. Look at all the new challenges, CCD, mites. Look at all the old challenges, wax moths, AHB, AMM. The only thing that makes a "fringe" is the limits of our knowledge and experience. The more you learn and experience, the more average things look. 

Crazy Roland


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## newbury (Jul 19, 2014)

Ravenseye said:


> I'm not particularly anxious to see a lot of "I don't know" posts that I have to scroll through in hopes of finding some direction. I'd prefer to see "I don't know but could it be............?" answers. At least that would get me thinking a little different about the issue. I'm reminded that the forum frowns on posts like "I agree" or "me too" and a slew of "I don't know" posts are pretty much the same thing.


Like I wrote - a couple of quick "I don't know BUT"'s per thread would suffice..



Michael Bush said:


> >But if just one or two of you would respond with something like "nope, never seen it check such-and-such and give us a picture" it could give a lot of us dummies more info.
> 
> I don't want to give the impression I don't believe them. They are most likely telling the truth. So I'm unclear how to help.
> 
> ...


I've only been on this board for a short time and wasn't trying to elicit a response from everybody, especially you but thanks.



CajunBee said:


> And yet another useless thread for the beginning beek. :applause:


Actually I think it's a great thread for those of us that frequent other boards. It tells me how the forum works inside.
For example it seems here people often follow links and references. On a tractor board I frequent I posted about the Extractor-less honey and one member came on and said someone named Michael Bush had not mentioned anything about it. Many people on that board NEVER follow a link or reference.

This board comes across as sensitive to a lot of useless posts, which I would term much beyond 3 "I don't know BUT"'s.



clyderoad said:


> Did the title of this thread change to "I don't know" recently?
> I thought it was originally titled "fringe genetics"? :scratch:


I'm pretty sure it was. How much time after creating a thread here can one change the title?


clyderoad said:


> Will Someone explain to me what the heck this thread is about.


I don't know BUT I think it's about how BS (is that the correct acronym?) runs.



Roland said:


> Has anything REALLY changed in beekeeping in 150 years?<snip>


Extractor-less honey near possible due to advance in engineering?


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

> from newbury - In the wax-dipping-tank-design thread I asked why one had to wax the entire box at one time but have not seen a response yet.


I've only been on this board for a short time and wasn't trying to elicit a response from everybody, especially you but thanks. I am wondering by how this is wrote if you really mean the thanks that you put in? And what is the expecially you referance cause it did look like you would have enjoyed a responce to me by the way you put your statement about not getting a responce. Just curious where you are comming from. gww


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



clyderoad said:


> Did the title of this thread change to "I don't know" recently?
> I thought it was originally titled "fringe genetics"? :scratch:
> 
> Will Someone explain to me what the heck this thread is about.


I don't know, but it's not about fringe genetics so I changed the title so it would be search friendly.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Barry said:


> I don't know, but it's not about fringe genetics so I changed the title so it would be search friendly.


What is it about? Much ado about nothing.....I think......and I can't imagine why anyone would search for it.


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## newbury (Jul 19, 2014)

gww said:


> Quote from newburyIn the wax-dipping-tank-design thread I asked why one had to wax the entire box at one time but have not seen a response yet. Quote from newburyI've only been on this board for a short time and wasn't trying to elicit a response from everybody, especially you but thanks.I am wondering by how this is wrote if you really mean the thanks that you put in?And what is the expecially you referance cause it did look like you would have enjoyed a responce to me by the way you put your statement about not getting a responce.Just curious where you are comming from.gww


Well first of all punctuation really helps. 

Did you read the thread? I'm "comming" from a position of little knowledge of the intricacies of wax dipping.

My "responce" was in reference to the fact that there was no "responce" to my question. I did not know if there was some reason the ENTIRE frame had to be dipped at the same time or if I could just rotate it thru the dip allowing time for penetration.

For example if I'm going to "flea dip" sheep I need to get just about the whole animal at once, not a leg at a time, or the fleas move around.

The "especially you" was because Mr. Bush seems to be EXTREMELY busy (busy as a bee?). I was not attempting to be satirical, rather respectful. I did write "thanks for all the replies", perhaps I should have named everybody individually. Is that the way it's done here?

It seems that most of the "dippers" are focused on production in a time sensitive manner, I'm not.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

When people don't know and they search for it, now they will find it!


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

newbury


> Well first of all punctuation really helps.


But you still come off as a bit arrogant, for seeming to want help as I am sure I come off arrogant by making this post. 

However, you are correct as far as my punctuation goes. Just shows that I am lacking in other forms of education as well as beekeeping.

I do believe my post was much prettier till the computer slamed it all together when I posted.

I did understand the wanting to know as much as you could and pointing out that you were coming from a place of less experiance. I am too.

I usually just ask for deeper explinations when I get someone responding to my questions.

It's all good
gww

I would say this forum is like the tractor forum with lots of individuals sharing what they have to offer.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Barry said:


> When people don't know and they search for it, now they will find it!


Now that's the most sensible thing I've read in this thread.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

If I saw the drones all hangin' out on the front porch and a spider web overhead with the words 
'Virgins Welcome' written in it, 
I would have some fringe genetics to talk about!










Sorry Walt  Couldn't resist a little teasing with a testy thread

Seriously, In Idaho at about 8000' in elevation, I saw some honeybees with a distinct heavy vein in their wing pattern I have never seen before. Saw it on the bees on lavender plants at the country store and again a couple days later, several miles away in the wilderness area we were hunting. I had my bow slung over my shoulder and a bee landed on my arrow vein inches from my face. 
Fringe genetics? Something new to me anyway. I really wanted to put up a swarm trap, but it would have had to stay there all year until the next elk season. And it is bear country big time. I am still intrigued though. I'd like to get my hands on a colony of these apparently wild bees and see what they are all about.
They also had a slightly shorter/fatter abdomen.
I sure wish I had taken a photo.


----------



## newbury (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



gww said:


> newbury
> 
> 
> But you still come off as a bit arrogant, for seeming to want help as I am sure I come off arrogant by making this post.
> ...


I won't go over spelling because my system underlines yours. However you did not answer my question: Did you read the thread?


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Barry said:


> now they will find it!


Find what???


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Roland said:


> The only thing that makes a "fringe" is the limits of our knowledge and experience. The more you learn and experience, the more average things look.
> 
> Crazy Roland


With all the years your family has been at this gig I'd say even the fringe looks "average" to Roland.




For all the newbies take note in that fact: 

The important things in life will only be consumed by the fringe when one is unable or ill equipped to deal with there occurrences. The freak out factor in Beeping follows the same curve as the rest of life. The earlier you learn to deal with "it" the smoother things can be handled. 

The only guy in ther bull tring who is afraid of the bull is the guy who has not yet head slammed a dozen of those puppies to the floor a dozen times. Get out there and start slamming!!!!!! It boxes in the "fringe. " Even with bees!


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

newbury


> I won't go over spelling because my system underlines yours. However you did not answer my question: Did you read the thread?


I already know I can't spell and now you know it too.

I apparently read enough of the thread to see your responces.

You might have been as you say "was trying to be respectfull" I just thought you where asking for a responce to your question and then saying but not from just anybody, 

I do know you fought back by trying to point out a flaw of mine. But hey, It didn't come as a surprize to me that I couldn't spell, I am glad I already knew that before you pointed it out. 

I did agree with your goal of not needing prodution in a time sensitive manor as I have simular goals. I do like hearing about better ways to manage if I hear them though, even if I don't use them.

Good luck
gww


----------



## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

If you guys are through bickering, would like to respond to my good friend, Mr. Palmer.
Thank you, sir for pointing out an error on my part. My example of a fringe condition was a poor choice. Apparently excessive swarming has more than one cause. There is both a "normal' and an off-normal reason.

The typical colony is quite skilled at regulating population in balance with cavity size and stores capacity. Anything short of that would be detrimental in different ways. Weakness and starvation are the extremes results of error in balance. We mess with their cavity size on a regular basis, causing disruption of their instincts. Like supering, harvesting, reversal, etc. If overpopulated, their safety valve is swarm to relieve the condition - like afterswarms in the reproduction period, or shortly after. That is a normal reaction to our meddling.
You do reverse, do you not? Under some conditions, reversal can cheat them out of their backfilling and create overcrowding.

Swarming to the point of vulnerability to other death-dealing conditions is not normal, and that's the mode I had in mind. 

Walt


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## Dan Walvatne (Sep 10, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

I'm entertained!


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Dan Walvatne said:


> I'm entertained!


Welcome. The whole site if full of entertainment.....and occasional enlightenment.


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## papabear (Mar 5, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



wcubed said:


> Can a OP unsubscribe?
> 
> Where I headed with this is just to remind respondents that irregularities are sometimes genetic and we shouldn't always assume that the inexperienced beginner is at fault. Have seen posts that I would consider to be badgering the OP, and think that inappropriate.
> 
> Walt


Walt, I use to blame myself if a hive died [ did I do something wrong or what ] just found a dead hive. hand full of bees an a queen I blame it on a bad queen with not enough drones in area last spring to mate .
I wish I could clone from good hives come to think of it I do 
I raised 4 children and they all turned out different is it bad genetics because they did not turn out like I would like? all I can do is train a child in the way he should go an hope it turns out ok. 
I am a new beekeeper an do a lot of reading so I don't get a smart a answer I love bee source and thank all you experience beekeepers for your input
all my children are different and all my hives are different kind of like it that way
thanks again
STUMPY LAKE BEE FARM


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



papabear said:


> just found a dead hive. hand full of bees an a queen I blame it on a bad queen with not enough drones in area last spring to mate .


What makes you believe this?


----------



## papabear (Mar 5, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



beemandan said:


> What makes you believe this?


no eggs no brood


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



wcubed said:


> I use the word "fringe" in the sense of the normal bell curve distribution of bee characteristics. Most colonies behave within a given range.........Walt


Yes. Assuming bee characteristics follow a "normal" distribution is out on the VERY FRINGE.
Beekeeping is not process control.

Why not apply Ohm's law to our hives?
Yes, how much force can a tethered bee apply to a load cell.
Convert to watts x population / 746 = HEY MAN!!! We have a 40 horse power bee hive right here!!!

It's not perfection; it's beekeeping!


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



papabear said:


> no eggs no brood


Might that not be normal in mid February?


----------



## papabear (Mar 5, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

whats normal? I read queen would not cross a honey barrier. well that is not true in my case as last year she sure did eat 4 deeps and started laying in them .
I would think she would be laying now
I guess the real problem started last fall. I should have made sure she had enough winter bees. 
also this is a ware hive that i was going to use as my swarm hive until I ran across beehive in a jar as my wife wanted comb honey. maybe this year she will get some.

Stumpy lake bee farm


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



papabear said:


> whats normal? I read queen would not cross a honey barrier.


Well there is a difference between what is normal, and what is sometimes said to be normal. And this is discovered by working with bees rather than reading about them, as you are starting to do, you have now discovered one thing that is sometimes said that is not the case in a real hive.

This does not mean that just anything can happen in a hive, or not happen, just cos you've seen some misleading info written somewhere. It is often the case a hive will have no brood mid winter but it depends on bee breed, location, and season. But there being just a handful of bees, that is a problem and could have several causes.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Oldtimer said:


> It is often the case a hive will have no brood mid winter but it depends on bee breed, location, and season. But there being just a handful of bees, that is a problem and could have several causes.


And, of course, the reason there might not be any brood is because of a small cluster on the edge of collapse. In that situation there is little to no energy to feed the queen sufficiently to induce egg laying, much less enough to feed and incubate developing brood. As far as a queen crossing frames of honey....it may not be the rule but it isn't exceptional either. 

Good luck papabear.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

I haven't tried to prove it with my bees but apparently resource starved bees will eat eggs and larvae too.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



beemandan said:


> And, of course, the reason there might not be any brood is because of a small cluster on the edge of collapse.


That would be my best guess also.


----------



## papabear (Mar 5, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



crofter said:


> I haven't tried to prove it with my bees but apparently resource starved bees will eat eggs and larvae too.


I don't think was the case as I put sugar bricks on all hives. the queen was very small like she didn't get bred very good.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



papabear said:


> I don't think was the case as I put sugar bricks on all hives. the queen was very small like she didn't get bred very good.


I wouldn't necessarily judge her based on size. You may be right regarding how she was bred but I've had some dynamite queens that were on the small size and of course some that were large. And while I see value in sugar, I need to remind myself sometimes that it's not the diet needed for a healthy, growing and sustainable colony.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*

If none of the most common scenarios are behind your queen with a handful of bees and no eggs or brood then maybe it is fringe genetics. Doesn't seem successful though.


----------



## papabear (Mar 5, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Ravenseye said:


> I wouldn't necessarily judge her based on size. You may be right regarding how she was bred but I've had some dynamite queens that were on the small size and of course some that were large. And while I see value in sugar, I need to remind myself sometimes that it's not the diet needed for a healthy, growing and sustainable colony.


without a good mated queen laying there is no brood and eventually the hive will get to a hand full of bees like mine did 

Stumpy lake bee farm


----------



## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



papabear said:


> without a good mated queen laying there is no brood and eventually the hive will get to a hand full of bees like mine did
> 
> Stumpy lake bee farm


Yes indeed. But size is not always the prime indicator. Don't be fooled by size.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



papabear said:


> without a good mated queen laying there is no brood and eventually the hive will get to a hand full of bees like mine did


And even more likely, a hive with a load of varroa will eventually get down to a handful of bees....even with a well mated queen. Which begs the question....did you do any objective mite testing?


----------



## papabear (Mar 5, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Ravenseye said:


> Yes indeed. But size is not always the prime indicator. Don't be fooled by size.


she was a small size queen to begin with 4.9 from Tennessee
a good laying queen will sustain a strong colony as long as there is no disease

Stumpy lake bee farm


----------



## papabear (Mar 5, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



beemandan said:


> And even more likely, a hive with a load of varroa will eventually get down to a handful of bees....even with a well mated queen. Which begs the question....did you do any objective mite testing?


yes I did but only 1 time just before Thanksgiving with o a . will do more this year 4 times in August and once again around Thanksgiving.
thanks that is my likely cause but did not see any signs on empty comb

Stumpy lake bee farm


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



papabear said:


> she was a small size queen to begin with 4.9 from Tennessee
> a good laying queen will sustain a strong colony as long as there is no disease
> 
> Stumpy lake bee farm



Yes. I think all agree. My point was that a good laying queen is not always based on size.


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## papabear (Mar 5, 2014)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Ravenseye said:


> Yes. I think all agree. My point was that a good laying queen is not always based on size.


I agree


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Ravenseye said:


> Don't be fooled by size.


Are you a man or a woman? The advice could make a difference.


----------



## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: "Fringe Genetics"*



Acebird said:


> Are you a man or a woman? The advice could make a difference.


Amusingly off topic regarding the replied to post.


----------

