# SBB and pollen loss



## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Haven't noticed much difference between solid bottoms and SBBs. I sometimes find pollen pellets on the few solid boards I sometimes use too. I see most of the lost pollen while mouse guards are on. Of course, when it warms up the fire ants may have been carrying off the pollen if they can bridge the water moat on the hive stand legs! I do see a little under the SBBs but not enough to worry about. Go with the SBBs.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

If losing pollen becomes an issue you can make a upper entrance by notching your inner cover. I have a 2" notch in mine. Some hives choose to use it exclusively, some split the entrances and others ignore it altogether.


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

Calbee, I have 3 hives, started out with 2 of them with screened bb's and 1 with solid bb. A couple of weeks ago, when we had a little heat wave, I changed out the solid board and gave that hive a screened board. 
I noticed the hives that had the screens did lose some pollen, and at first I was dismayed by that, but from what I saw, it did not effect the bees at all. 
When I vaporized the hives the one that had the solid bottom got gunk all over the vaporizer. 
Also, the hive with the solid board had a ton more moisture on the inner cover, glad I have quilts on all three.
I could monitor mite drop a LOT easier with the screened boards. 
I leave the screened boards closed, so it protects from the cold some, but has a little ventilation just because it's not air tight. 
When I changed out that solid board for the screened, I was amazed at all the junk on that bottom board. 
Hope that helps!


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## Will O'Brien (Feb 22, 2006)

I am switching to solid bottom boards with upper entrances. Michael Bush' comments were compelling to me that that set up is much more like a natural bee tree which has a small upper entrance and comb being built below that. The bee tree has no open bottom for ventilation, moisture escapes out of the top entrance and the garbage on the bottom has a lot of microbes that form an ecosystem that natural bee trees seem to be ok with, so, I am not assuming that to be bad for the hive. Lastly, a screened bottom board provides a huge entrance for both varoa and small hive beetle. 

I am still finding my way through this stuff. I am sure that it will be debated forever but the logic that I am using is to stay as much like a natural bee tree as possible. I hope this helps.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Will, you need to remember that in wild bee trees only 20% of swarms survive their 1st year. Forget thinking "natural" and make your decisions on legitimate management concerns. Solid bottom boards and upper entrances are not wrong, but neither are screened bottom boards and bottom entrances. You will find that most beekeeper management plans are made because of our personal likes and dislikes and that the bees survive whether we are right or wrong. They may not prosper as well, but they usually survive. As for varroa, they come into the hive riding on a bee, and small hive beetle fly directly in at any entrance no matter how large or small it is.

I am not saying your decisions are wrong, just made for the wrong reasons.


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## Will O'Brien (Feb 22, 2006)

AR, I said nothing about other's decisions or approach being wrong, I simply stated why I made the decisions that made regarding how I keep bees. 

I understand about the varoa and considered editing it out after I posted but moved on to other things. Regarding the small hive beetle, I keep my upper entrances relatively small and I know that could be done with a lower entrance as well but I don't think that many people do that under normal circumstances. The smaller entrance is more effectively guarded by the bees. Also, with the top entrance I do not have an inner cover. The inner cover provides a lot of space for SHB to hide out. Bees will at times corral them there but they do not appear to be effective at removing them from the inner cover which is as far away from a lower entrance as it could possibly be. 

The screened bottom board also provides great access for the SHB larva to drop through to get to the ground to pupate. With a solid bottom board the SHB larva has to work its way out through the top entrance which is more difficult and risky for the SHB larva.

Regarding my making my decisions for the right reasons, Mother Nature has been keeping bees much longer and more effectively than you or anybody else in this forum. I think that using her as a model is perfectly reasonable and I would appreciate it if you would simply offer alternative ideas without endicting the rationale of my decision making.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Will; I can tell I stepped on a sore toe and for that I apologize, please understand that I know that your bees are your bees and that you will manage them as you see fit.

It is true that beekeepers need to work with the natural nature of the bee as much as possible, find out what the bees want to do and aid them in doing it should be written on the first page of every book of bee management. But what I see much of on the forums is the attitude that says ignore the fact that we do not keep bees in "natural" circumstances. My dictionary is an old one and "endicting" is not in it, but I assume it would mean that I was trashing your decision making. That was not my intent in my post. 

I will give a few alternative ideas and why I think they would be better than what you have stated in your post. Many people use top entrances only and seem to be pleased with them, I was not, but that could just be personal preferences. You said that you decided to use them because that is what is most natural, but according to Steeley's work "Nests of the Honey Bee" feral bee nests with top entrances occur only 24% of the time. 58% of the entrances are at the bottom of the cavity and 18% are in the middle. In tree cavities the entrance is usually a small hole, something on the order of 2.5 inches. It is easy to guard but a managed colony will have a much larger population than a feral colony, in most cases. This leads to traffic problems on a heavy nectar flow. The bottom entrance of a Langstroth hive can be increased or decreased easily to adjust for the traffic flow.

Solid bottom boards work well as many beekeepers will agree, but if you have a serious hive beetle problem you should consider a bottom trap, such as the Freeman beetle trap, and that requires an open mesh bottom board. The open mesh bottom can be opened or closed depending on the weather so the beekeeper help the bees heat or cool the interior of the hive, the solid bottom can be closed, but can be opened only in a small amount compared to the open mesh bottom. Winter ventilation is better accomplished, at least in my opinion, by using a OMBB along with an insulated top. The bee cluster is in the top box and is not subjected to a direct draft.

Small hive beetle control is mainly by corralling the beetles and that is done in empty cells or in the spaces at the end of the top bars, or by driving the adults/larvae into the traps. The bees do the most good when they police the cells for eggs and remove those they find. The most efficient trap that I have seen is the bottom trap with oil in the pan to trap the beetles. I would prefer that the larva are able to leave the hive as quickly as they can, and by an entrance that leads them to a quick death, and that is through an open mesh bottom board.

Mother Nature is actually a very poor beekeeper, she kills with no compassion for any creature. There is no allowance for mistakes on the bees part, or for mistakes on her part, such as a failure of a nectar flow due to Mother's allowing a drought or late freeze.

I say again, I did not mean to offend you with my earlier post, and I don't intend to dictate how you manage your bees. I just intended to point out that there are other things to consider when making management decisions.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

ar beekeeper thank you for examples from real life experiences.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

AR Beekeeper said:


> But what I see much of on the forums is the attitude that says ignore the fact that we do not keep bees in "natural" circumstances.


really good point arb. i expressed a similar thought to the former moderator of of this subforum some time back.

it's very likely that our 3/4" wood boxes don't have anywhere near the r value that a tree hollow has, thus making it more demanding on the bees to keep warm in the winter as well as stay cool in the summer.

and no where in nature are you going to find colonies of bees so densely congregated as they are in our beeyards. this has implications in terms of the competition for field forage, as well as an increased likelihood for the spreading of diseases and pests between colonies.

the most obvious difference is that in nature the colony doesn't have to contend with it's hive being repeatedly torn apart and having resources taken from it. as you state, the circumstances for kept bees are far from 'natural'.

to this point, i guess we could just concede that since we already have these bees so much out of their element it's really not that big of a leap to go ahead and introduce chemicals into the hive to manage varroa and feed them back syrup so that we may harvest as much honey as they can make. 

the antithetical view is that since we are working with a living superorganism and already introducing the above mentioned stressors associated with our use of them as livestock, maybe it's better if we avoid making it even more unnatural by disrupting the microbial balance in the hive and expecting them to be just as healthy on an other than natural diet.



AR Beekeeper said:


> please understand that I know that your bees are your bees and that you will manage them as you see fit.


exactly. i appreciate the spirit of that remark and the reality of it is that we all have our own individual beekeeping agendas which in turn have a significant influence on our management choices. i feel fortunate that i have been able to sustain an apiary (so far) off treatments and with very limited feeding. it's possible that i could increase production and decrease losses by adopting more conventional practices, and i like you do not disparage anyone for making their choices as they see fit, but i'm finding a degree of satisfaction in attempting the challenge of having a successful operation without doing so.



AR Beekeeper said:


> It is true that beekeepers need to work with the natural nature of the bee as much as possible, find out what the bees want to do and aid them in doing it should be written on the first page of every book of bee management.


another superb comment. it seems that what the great ones all have in common is that they were able to let the bees teach them. i'll wager that most of the difficulties we encounter happen when we try to coerce the bees into accomplishing what we want them to and it turns out to be too much of a stretch from what they are able to do.

sorry calbee, i guess i've strayed a bit from screened bottom boards. arb, i really appreciated those comments.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

AR Beekeeper said:


> Will, you need to remember that in wild bee trees only 20% of swarms survive their 1st year. Forget thinking "natural" and make your decisions on legitimate management concerns.


Is that why 80 percent of the swarms I catch don't survive their first year? I have never noticed a larger loss of pollen with SBB. I have noticed pollen loss on those circular mouse guards. Depending on what's underneath your screened bottom board, it may just be a resting place for the mites to hitchhike their way back up to the nest.


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## Will O'Brien (Feb 22, 2006)

AR Beekeeper said:


> Will; I can tell I stepped on a sore toe and for that I apologize,


Thank you AR for that apology and your thoughtful response. 

Fortunately I have not had a significant SHB issue as you described to deal with. If I did I might very well use a freeman trap in that situation. I have been using the small traps that go between the tops of two frames - I think they are the Beetle Blasters. 

I realize how unnatutural a kept beehive is, and for me I will better understand bees and how to keep them if I consider how they live in a natural setting. it provides me with as consistent as possible a basis for determining cause and effect relationships and for figuring out how to keep bees year after year. That is what guides my operating model in my bee yard. I don't make a living with bees, they are simply a hobby for me. 

Be well...


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