# Russell Queens



## Riskybizz

I have been wanting to try some Russell Sunkist Queens for a couple years now. I first placed my order in January of 2011 made payment and they confirmed my order within a day. They were due to ship that May, but I had to cancel them because of a trip to Italy. When I returned I emailed them and asked them not to ship because we were experiencing such a bad spring, wind, cold, drought. It was not time to be making up splits as many of my colonies were stressed. They agreed to place my order on hold for a 'will call". This February I emailed them and asked to have my previous order shipped this April, 2012. Victoria emailed me back the following day and confirmed they would ship the week of April 23rd. After a one week delay I received them via US Postal overnight mail this past Saturday, May 5th. I had made up some splits and installed most of them yesterday. Just wanted to say thank you to Victoria and Russell. I always heard back from them immediately and they really went out of their way to accomodate my schedule. Looking forward to checking out these Sunkists and for some other orders in the future.


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## AstroBee

Sounds like great service. Keep us posted on how they work out for you.


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## TwT

these people did all they were suppose to for me, bee's in good health and delivered on the day they said, will be doing business again with Russell Apiaries......


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## beeware10

this is good as last year everyone bashed russell. either they had bad customers last year or their service is getting better.


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## big joe

their service is much better. i think victoria bell is her name and she got back with me regarding an order before i could get another beer. i got my queen when she said i would and she looks awesome! (the queen ,but i am sure victoria is awesome also.) send a message thru the website for best results. I will order from russel again.


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## beeker

I've emailed twice and tried to call to get an update on two orders, one that I placed last year and the other placed this year. So far, no response. They had a tornado that set them back and put an update on their website that they were behind but that was nearly a month ago and no updates since. Not a knock on them personally but the communication could definitely improve. Hopefully the wait will be worth it.


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## SteelHorse

I also have emailed twice to get an update on my queen order I placed last year. Their web site says emailing is the best way to contact them. Still no response. I tried calling but their voice mail box was full.


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## beeker

I've also tried calling both last week and this week and the phone goes to a full voice mail. Still no response. Emailed for a third time. I've very disappointed with the lack of communication.


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## seal62

Every time i see this name come up i bite my lip . I'm glad so many have great service but for those that don't i hear your cry for help . I sent Bob a pm a month ago and still no response , i pm'd his bully Twinky ,,,e mail to the web site . Some things never change . I said i wouldn't act like a teenage girl on facebook but im sure tempted . Shall i talk about my dealings with this company ? I'd prefer not to . The biggest joke ,,,and it is a joke ,,,the bees are worth the wait . Here"s the bee math . You can add up the numbers as you see fit . A queen lays x amount of bees a day , there are 30 days in a month . Is it worth it to wait a month for 400$ worth of queens payed for 11 months in advance ? Don't even give me the livestock thing , I grew up shoveling . If I pay in advance for a bull and it dies before i pick it up i get my money back . Wheres my refund ? What happened to I stand behind my bees ? Bob ? Here's how it is now ,,if i don't get a refund . For sale 10 moonbeams ..My invoice says 428$ shipped . I'll take 375 ..or less ,, I wont have them in my yard . I'm done playing this game ..I called Kelley"s this am ..bees shipped today . I called BrokeT ..he's shipping on Monday .Nationally speaking , for this climate , I would say ,,invest elsewhere . This post is wife approved . Disclaimer ,, I have a paper trail , email and pm's..a video trail . All queens in my vids are named and where they come from . Don"t even light me up on those lame sunkist nucs , hear that flush ? That was 2500$ .The thing about this vid there was a 4th box ..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGpKAEFhO8k


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## mudlake

Last word from me. Got my queens after many phone calls, many e-mails days missed from work, add that to the cost of the queens. This was for 5 sunkist queens. I ordered northern queens as instructed. 4 out of 5 did not make it through the winter we had the easyiest winter in years many years. The hive that made it, is not active. Middle of the day flying the only hive with no honey stored, so far. Might be good warm weather bees, not northern bees. It seems this company has weather problems every year. Save yourself from getting upset order from a company that has less weather problems. If you can get you bees local get them. My e-mail mudl[email protected]. Thank You for your time Tony


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## the doc

i had a similar experience to big joe. Sent an email a day ago to delay an order and victoria had emailed me back a few hours later. no problems here with service


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## Lauri

*Russell queen order???*

After several emails and unanswered phone calls, I posted this thread on the Russell Apiaries forum. If I sound grumpy, that's it because I am.
Short and to the point. I know many think Dr. Russell is amazing, but if you are going to offer products to the public, certainly you need to be prepared to deliver. If you can't deliver for what ever reason..
JUST LET US KNOW...

Here is what I said:
Same as many, I placed my order for 7 queens early March for late April delivery. No responses to emails, no one answers phone.Now the Middle of May and I am starting to feel I just threw $200. into the fire. I am in a short season Northern state and don't want these queens just in time to try to overwinter them. Some information and communication would go a long way to a new customer .

A problem for me was after I ordered these queens, I saw on another page people generally order their queens the year before they are needed. That information should be on the page queens are ordered. Not somewhere else on your web site.

Too late after you've already hit the 'pay pal' symbol.

Also wanted to say I do know about your storm damage. All I am asking is if you will be able to ship these queens within a reasonable time frame or not so I can make plans. I would rather wait until next year than get these queens too late in the summer to make good use of them.

As of today My order was placed 70 days ago. 

When my son was killed, I still had to run my construction business. We all have problems at times. We had to hire extra people to help complete our jobs until our family had recovered enough to work again. Your storm damage was unfortunate, but I believe folks would appreciate some communication from your end.

I wouldn't be so worried if I had not read numerous posts on beesourse and your own web site about unhappy customers. I am going to speak up before months go by like it has for so many others.


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## NY_BLUES

*Re: Russell queen order???*

I placed an order in August of last year, for mid may queens. I received an email from them stating that they would be shipping within a week. I think that you need to slow down and relax, he sells thousands of queens a year, on top of numerous products and cells. Things happen that are out of everyones control, and 70 days to wait is not that bad, considering the fact that you arent his only customer and many people ordered their queens last year, for spring delivery. Hang in their, im sure they will get to you soon.


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## the doc

*Re: Russell queen order???*

i sent an email yesterday and got a response from victoria within a few hours. try again


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## TIMER

I feel your pain Mike, the last thing I heard from Dr. Russell was "rest assured I will make it right" that was 8/15/2011. I've sent emails and called and left messages, no response!
At least it was only $500 that I flushed.


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## Lauri

*Re: Russell queen order???*

Do you have an email address that is different than the one on their web site?

I guess I am frustrated. Recently I tried to order a 1400 Maxant 20 frame radial extractor from Chris here on beesourse. I called him 6 times and he never returned a single call. After a month trying to get him to respond, I bought one from Ruhl bees in Oregon..was shipped in just a few days.
So I have already had my fill of waiting and hoping to get some response.

There are a lot of people who ordered and paid months before I did and are not getting their order or replys from this business, I would be a fool to think I am higher up on the delivery list they they are.
I know everyone is busy this time of year..but please don't offer products if you can't deliver and have no customer service to at least contact the customer.

And if you for some reason can't deliver-don't hold my money hostage and just not return my calls or emails. We all understand bees are an agricultural item that is dependent on lots of factors including the weather. 

Correspondence isn't dependent on anything else but good business practices and just a few moments of someones time.


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## beeker

the doc said:


> i had a similar experience to big joe. Sent an email a day ago to delay an order and victoria had emailed me back a few hours later. no problems here with service


What email address did you use? I am sending to the email address [email protected] which is listed on their site and not getting any response. I've checked the junk folder too. Also sent a PM to Dr Russell on his forums. Still no answer. This makes no sense that some people would get immediate responses and others hear nothing at all.


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## beeker

I just received a response to my 3rd email so that is encouraging.

All I can say is, you can have the best product in the world but if you aren't reliably communicating with your customers and leaving them hanging with no idea what is going on that's a problem. That is no way to run a business.

This will be my last order from Russell Apiaries until they sort out these issues. It's just not worth the hassle.


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## giant pumpkin peep

Working on some late night homework here. Sent an email while I was taking a quick break, and got a reply before I could get the paper done.


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## TIMER

It seems that many of the posters here get responses right away.
If that is true then they must be selectively ignoring the folks who have issues.
That's just plain bad business.


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## Specialkayme

seal62 said:


> The biggest joke ,,,and it is a joke ,,,the bees are worth the wait . Here"s the bee math . You can add up the numbers as you see fit . A queen lays x amount of bees a day , there are 30 days in a month . Is it worth it to wait a month for 400$ worth of queens payed for 11 months in advance ?


Many individuals have said it before, including the Doc, you don't order from Russell's if you want queens for splits or you want queens today. If you are timing a split, or need a queen asap, Russell's will tell you to order from someone else. You order from Russell's for the genetic diversity, for the genetics of the queens.

If you want to complain about how much productivity you lose from not having a queen for 30 days (or longer), PLEASE order from someone else. You will be happier, have more bees, and Russell won't have to deal with the complaints. If you instead want to increase your genetic gene pool, then use them for that. But don't confuse the two.



TIMER said:


> they must be selectively ignoring the folks who have issues.


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## beeker

TIMER said:


> It seems that many of the posters here get responses right away.
> If that is true then they must be selectively ignoring the folks who have issues.
> That's just plain bad business.


I was told that Victoria had been the only one in the office and my first two emails had gone in the spam folder which they only check once a week. It really sounds like they are just short staffed. That is further confirmed by the fact that their voice mail has been full at least for the past week. I feel for the poor folks who are buried with such a volume that they can't keep up and get the brunt of frustration because of it. For an operation of their size and the prices they charge there is really no excuse for it. Hire a couple people part time in the busy season if you have to but don't leave so many customers in the dark with no communication.


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## beeker

Specialkayme said:


> Many individuals have said it before, including the Doc, you don't order from Russell's if you want queens for splits or you want queens today. If you are timing a split, or need a queen asap, Russell's will tell you to order from someone else. You order from Russell's for the genetic diversity, for the genetics of the queens.


You either aren't reading what people are complaining about or your are intentionally mischaracterizing the complaints. If the web site indicates a queen of a certain type should ship in a certain time frame that is setting an expectation with the customer. If something happens that changes that expectation then a new expectation should be set and communicated by the web site at a minimum. That hasn't happened. The fact that customers can't reach anyone to get answers without great difficulty only makes matters worse. These are legitimate gripes. Product quality is not the only thing that matters in running a business.


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## Lauri

Specialkayme said:


> Many individuals have said it before, including the Doc, you don't order from Russell's if you want queens for splits or you want queens today. If you are timing a split, or need a queen asap, Russell's will tell you to order from someone else. You order from Russell's for the genetic diversity, for the genetics of the queens.
> 
> And where on his queen ordering page does it state THAT???
> 
> We'll take your money and send you your order sometime in the next 15 months? That's just what I need, queens showing up on my doorstep when I have no use for them. I'm new to beekeeping and not in the 'loop' of good old boy knowledge.
> So many people on Beesourse raved about the quality of these queens. I was unawere of the poor service until after I had already hit the 'Paypal' icon.
> 
> Let me go start my smoker with a few $100. dollar bills. At least I would see something for my money.


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## BobsBees

*Re: Russell queen order???*

Communcation is important. How about if the Queen Breeder is unable to fill a order in a timely manner, can they state this on their website. "Sold Out", "Not Taking New Orders", "New Orders Not Taken At This Time" instead of just letting it ride until the customer is mislead.


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## the doc

*Re: Russell queen order???*

I used the yahoo address on the website. 

I think one just has have different expectations from Russell. They primarily supply large operations. When you get ahold of them they are very nice and helpful. He sent me replacement queens last year at no cost when there was a problem.

If you absolutely need something then one might want to consider another supplier.


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## giant pumpkin peep

beeker said:


> You either aren't reading what people are complaining about or your are intentionally mischaracterizing the complaints. If the web site indicates a queen of a certain type should ship in a certain time frame that is setting an expectation with the customer. If something happens that changes that expectation then a new expectation should be set and communicated by the web site at a minimum. That hasn't happened. The fact that customers can't reach anyone to get answers without great difficulty only makes matters worse. These are legitimate gripes. Product quality is not the only thing that matters in running a business.


Right below the part of dates when queens start getting shipped it says the weather in unpretictable, and stuff changes. This is guy is nice enough to let us get queens without buying 50 at a time, and if he has so many issues with someone wanting one stinkin queen, he'll go back to the big guys.


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## kincade

I just heard from one of their employees that there was a terrible accident this week and 2 people were killed (of their crew/family). I'm not sure how much they want me to relay as I'm just another customer, but I thought I should post it and let people know. I'm also waiting for a queen, but between the storm damage the last 2 years and this I can definitely understand how communication could suffer.


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## kincade

*Re: Russell queen order???*

Duplicate post


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## Lauri

*Re: Russell queen order???*

That is a shame, seems thay have had bad luck all around. I'm sure we all wish the friends and families of those effected our condolences.

That said, it doesn't excuse past bad customer service.

I am willing to give a reasonable time to recover somewhat from this tragedy. 

That said, a lot of people are waiting for their money back or product to be sent.
Period.


"Right below the part of dates when queens start getting shipped it says the weather in unpretictable, and stuff changes. This is guy is nice enough to let us get queens without buying 50 at a time, and if he has so many issues with someone wanting one stinkin queen, he'll go back to the big guys. Chris Cree"

Chris, thank goodness I did not pay for 50 queens. My order was for a few more than one stinkin' queen however. But every dollar these days is importaint to many people. And the issue here is the lack of communication to folks who are left hanging with no answers, no product and empty pockets.
Perhaps you would like to refund all us little guys and then Mr. Russell can just deal with the big dogs like you.


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## seal62

Specialkayme said:


> Many individuals have said it before, including the Doc, you don't order from Russell's if you want queens for splits or you want queens today. If you are timing a split, or need a queen asap, Russell's will tell you to order from someone else. You order from Russell's for the genetic diversity, for the genetics of the queens.
> 
> If you want to complain about how much productivity you lose from not having a queen for 30 days (or longer), PLEASE order from someone else. You will be happier, have more bees, and Russell won't have to deal with the complaints. If you instead want to increase your genetic gene pool, then use them for that. But don't confuse the two.


 Kay ..do you really want to go there ? The 1st item was nuc's ..the 2nd was queens payed for 11 month in advance . Its that today ? The eye roll was a insult . Gene pool ? Are you for real ? Out of 20 nucs 2 lived . What gene pool ? Kiddie pool ? I bought other queens ...that's the end of it . Only thing i want now is a refund . Will i ever see a check from Bob ? If anybody out there wants 10 moonbeams and can wait until winter the price is 375 ,,including shipping . There's been 1000 hits on this page ..now the wife is going off . I said i had a trail . Shall i post the responses ,emails? Photos of the nucs ? All we are saying is we want our money back and other ppl that love him can deal with him . I said very clearly i would'nt go teenage face book . One more smart comment like that and i will . Here's the line in the sand boys . Make it right or i go you tube . The big dog is mad now . I'm clearly angry now , they have 2 days to contact me . There it is ,,,deal with it .:applause::no:


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## Specialkayme

seal62 said:


> Out of 20 nucs 2 lived .


Could be just as much beekeeper error as it is bad bees. 



seal62 said:


> Only thing i want now is a refund .


And the one thing this site CAN'T provide you.



seal62 said:


> I said very clearly i would'nt go teenage face book . One more smart comment like that and i will .


So . . . let me get this straight . . . if I disagree with you, you will take it out on Russell's? I don't work there. I don't get paid by him. I'm not told to say anything, I'm just another customer. So . . . how does that make rational sense?



seal62 said:


> I'm clearly angry now , they have 2 days to contact me . There it is ,,,deal with it


I'm sorry, but I find that humorous. 

Why would you give them an ultimatum . . . at a site that the company refuses to visit? If you are going to give them an ultimatum, I suggest you do it in email, pm from their site, or forum on their site. That's what they use. Posting it on here would be like me writing in the sand on my front porch that Al-Quieta better not bomb NYC again . . . OR ELSE! The message won't get across. 

But, if you are dis-satisfied, I suggest you request a refund . . . from the seller and not from random individuals on this site . . . and deal with what you got. Take it into consideration when you order in the future. I don't see how "going teenage face book" or "go you tube" will improve your situation . . .


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## seal62

OK..im a bit chilled now .


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## Specialkayme

Seal.

You clearly haven't chilled.

By my count, you have 11 separate questions. Let me try to address them one by one:



seal62 said:


> Do you work for this company ?


No.



seal62 said:


> Did you bother to read my post ?


I did. Not only did I read it, I quoted it.



seal62 said:


> Or ,,you just cherry pick the parts you like ...kinda like the bible ?


I don't really know why you are bringing the bible into this . . . I don't really think that's the point of our discussion. Never have I quoted a bible verse on this site.

But no. I have not chosen to "cherry pick" the parts I like. Only reply to the pertinent parts of your constant ramblings that I thought was on topic.



seal62 said:


> Humorus ?


Yes. I found your post _humorous_



seal62 said:


> So..i have to assume you speak for Bob ?


I do not.



seal62 said:


> Do you?


Please see above. As well as post number 32.



seal62 said:


> Ever buy a nuc with zero brood ?


Nope. If you are insinuating that you have, I do not believe that you have either. A nuc with zero brood is not a nuc. It's a swarm. So if you bought a nuc with zero brood, you actually just overpaid for a swarm (or package) with drawn (possibly) comb. If you still think you have bought a nuc with zero brood, you got ripped off, and you should have inspected your nuc before driving away.



seal62 said:


> Ever drive 1000 miles one way to pick up nucs with zero brood ?


If I said no to the question above, I obviously couldn't say yes to this question. Your questions are redundant.



seal62 said:


> Ohh on aug 8 , because of zero commo , ?


Ah yes. The illusive "commo", I hate it when the "commo" comes out on August 8. Especially when it's zero!



seal62 said:


> But seeing you can speak without intel and are an employee, what other words of wisdom do you have for potential customers ?


Please see above . . . again . . . I'm not an employee. But thank you for calling me unintelligent.



seal62 said:


> Proud southern woman ?


I'm a man. So no. I'm not a proud southern woman. I believe you are confusing me with TwinkieBee.



seal62 said:


> Ya might wanna call your boy before you say anything else .


Not a question, but I'll address it anyway.

I don't know where you think it's appropriate to bully individuals. Myself or russell's employees. I suggest you calm down and think hard about what you say before you accuse individuals of something.

I think you have some misdirected anger.


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## Specialkayme

I'm forwarding a message sent to me from a Russell's employee. Names have been removed and replaced with initials.

"On Monday morning just before daylight a driver fell asleep at the wheel and crossed the median and struck one of our rigs that was moving hives from Oregon to Ohio. JM and his 14 year old son SM passed away on Tuesday evening in the hospital only 20 minutes apart. Doc is really tore up about it. We have all been here with his wife CM and their 11 year old daughter HM. Victoria . . . volunteered to stay behind and tackle all of the emails and calls by herself. A friend of Doc's that owns a large queen business in GA is sending his crews to step in for us to get this weeks and next weeks shipments out on Monday and Tuesday. Please pray for CM and their 11 year old daughter HM. We are still going to get their shipments out, we just couldn't leave this sweet family all alone during such a hard time. Thank-you."


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## Lauri

post deleted- to have some regard for previous post.


Thanks to the crew stepping in to help.
And again, condolences to those effected by the accident.


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## Vance G

We must have a harbor seal making all these threats. Please don't think a navy seal would have such poor contol of himself.


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## NDnewbeek

Is there a media link to the story?


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## Barry

I've searched but came up empty. Perhaps a link can be supplied as well.


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## sfisher

Doc has fallen on some hard times this year!


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## Riverratbees

I washed my hands with Russell apiaries last year after I recievedmy order. The quality of their queens is poor from my experience 4 died within a month of getting them and the other 2 one died over the winter and only 1 survived a non weather winter. My other bees might be a little grumpy but I will say this for the girls they produced 275lbs of honey last year and his sunkist queen produced 55lbs of honey. I requeened all my hives with a quality bee of my own. OH I sent e-mails called them and even talked to them on yahoo. They never returned any of my messages and blew me off. Poor customer svc and there is always something wrong weather Etc. Moonbeam strain my bees are out in the sun at daybreak and comeing home at dark I have even been stung when it was dark from a returning bee. Just a fancy name nothing more. I might send him a real queen bee that actually does all the things he says about his. 2 hive bodies on all my hives and 2 supers full of honey. If they ignor enough people maybe folks will start doing the same to them. There are to many reputable queen breeders with I am sure better quality queens. His queens look good on paper I have seen nothing from them that I would call quality. The only surviving queen nothing special and I have givin her the benefit of the dought. I will send her back to him rather than kill her. Send him some toilet paper to go with all that ---- they are shoveling.


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## seal62

Vance G said:


> We must have a harbor seal making all these threats. Please don't think a navy seal would have such poor contol of himself.


Wow ...just wow .


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## djastram

Thank you for your service & sacrifice seal.


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## Daniel Y

I have had a lot of experience providing goods to individuals. Mainly on a volunteer non profit basis on groups such as this. I can say without question if I where to get into producing queens. I woudl not even consider selling to the individual. It would be strictly a large operations. There are a lot of reasons for that but the only way you woudl really get it is if you tried offering anything to anyone. Everyone thinks they are the only customer you have and are basically a P.I.T.A. that is not worth dealing with.


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## Broke-T

Just an observation from a queen producer. Producing queens is a very time sensitive endevor. When you graft cells on a certain day you know what day you have to set up mating nucs because you know what day those queens will emerge and nucs have to be ready. You pull those queens so many days later because that nuc has to be ready to accept the next round of cells. Once this ball is set in motion you cant stop and say lets wait till tomorrow. Rain or shine, sickness or catastrophe you must keep this schedule.

The, this is agriculture excuse will only work so far. This year has been as perfect a queen rearing year as I can imagine. Early spring with no cold snaps. Beautiful mating weather, just enough rain to keep things blooming but no 5 day dreary cold rainy spells.

I know how many mating nucs I have and I know about how many queens I can expect each week. I don't book more than that. I have a list of will calls if I have extra or I call someone from next weeks ship schedule and see if they want theirs a week early, many do.

In most businesses the customer comes first if you want to succede. I think that is especially true in beekeeping.

Johnny


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## guyross

There queens are a cut above the rest and the service is too.


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## beeker

Broke-T said:


> Just an observation from a queen producer. Producing queens is a very time sensitive endevor. When you graft cells on a certain day you know what day you have to set up mating nucs because you know what day those queens will emerge and nucs have to be ready. You pull those queens so many days later because that nuc has to be ready to accept the next round of cells. Once this ball is set in motion you cant stop and say lets wait till tomorrow. Rain or shine, sickness or catastrophe you must keep this schedule.
> 
> The, this is agriculture excuse will only work so far. This year has been as perfect a queen rearing year as I can imagine. Early spring with no cold snaps. Beautiful mating weather, just enough rain to keep things blooming but no 5 day dreary cold rainy spells.
> 
> I know how many mating nucs I have and I know about how many queens I can expect each week. I don't book more than that. I have a list of will calls if I have extra or I call someone from next weeks ship schedule and see if they want theirs a week early, many do.
> 
> In most businesses the customer comes first if you want to succede. I think that is especially true in beekeeping.
> 
> Johnny


Spot on.


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## Specialkayme

Broke-T said:


> Once this ball is set in motion you cant stop and say lets wait till tomorrow. Rain or shine, sickness or catastrophe you must keep this schedule.


So you can imagine what happens when, say, a tornado rips through and destroys whole mating yards. Or a tornado takes the roof off your office building. Or you have a death in the family, or a very close and personal friend. All has happened this year to Russell's.

Once the ball is set in motion you can't stop and wait till tomorrow. When something else comes in and stops your ball, you were planning so far in advance it's difficult if not impossible to every come back up to speed. And yet Russell's is.


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## beeker

Specialkayme said:


> So you can imagine what happens when, say, a tornado rips through and destroys whole mating yards. Or a tornado takes the roof off your office building. Or you have a death in the family, or a very close and personal friend. All has happened this year to Russell's.
> 
> Once the ball is set in motion you can't stop and wait till tomorrow. When something else comes in and stops your ball, you were planning so far in advance it's difficult if not impossible to every come back up to speed. And yet Russell's is.


The issue is not that the unexpected happens and impacts your business. The issue is how you handle the unexpected to minimize the impact to your customers. If I could have confirmed my order online and seen a revised expected shipping date I wouldn't have even bothered attempting contact. Since no such system is in place and it went a month with no updates on the website other than a vague "we're catching up" I had to contact someone for information. And when a business is either unequipped or unwilling to provide their customers that source of information, _that is the problem._ It has nothing to do with the specifics of what put them behind.


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## robherc

Unfortunately, beeker, I think one of the biggest "roots" of the problem that many of us hobbyists have with ordering from Russell Apiaries is that Russell Apiaries aren't set up to cater to hobbyist beekeepers. They are an industrial-scale apiary who's set up to handle primarily commercial-scale orders & customers. They chose to start allowing orders from us hobbyists (I'm guessing) as a _service_ to us, and likely had little if any idea how much of a deluge of correspondence it was going to cost them.
In the end, our 1, 2, 5, 10, and even 20 queen orders, though they may represent large investments to us, are truly microscopic to an operation of that size, and likely represent almost no part of their "profit margin" whatsoever, so it's really not worth it for them to hire more ppl to service us. I don't know what "the solution" would really be here, but I hope the one they choose isn't to simply stop selling to anyone who can't order queens in batches of 100, because that would cost us access to some really great genetics.


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## rweakley

Some people on here are sounding pretty dang sanctimonious. Well I'm so perfect if my operation got tore up 2 years in a row by a tornado I would have had perfect communication with my customers. If a close friend and employee loses his life while working for me along with his child, well I'll just buck up and get the queens delivered. I for one am more than happy to buy queens from someone who has a heart and has in my experience gone above and beyond for me and my piddly little 4 queen orders. Stop treating Russell apiaries like they are supposed to be the Amazon.com of queens and nucs, and hopefully he won't decide that the hobby beekeepers aren't worth it. I would also like to comment on the fact that posts are being deleted at a bit of an alarming rate around here. What's the deal?

Rod


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## Lauri

I understand the shipment dates are approximate. My shipment is not that late. Although it states orders MAY be up to 45 days, perhaps a few days later. 70 days is a little beyond that I'd say.

It is those huge numbers of people who have ordered FAR earlier than I did that STILL have not received their orders OR any contact from Russell's staff that concerns me the most. I would be foolish to think I am higher up on the list for delivery then they are. Some paid last year and can't get any response from this company, starting BEFORE their run of bad luck. 

My husband and I run two businesses, a commercial construction company and own and operate a charter boat off the coast of WA. (Not to mention my Agricultural stuff. I run by myself, as a 2nd year keeper, 52 hives,, not counting my recently made nucs. I own and manage two APHA stallions for breeding + mares+ take care of the family and farm) Certainly I know how hard it is when problems arise. But those problems are NOT the customers problem. As a business owner they are mine, and up to me to fix them -regardless of how hard or inconvenient.

If the weather is too bad, the seas are too rough or the boat breaks down and we can't take the customers out, do we just keep their money? I think not. Do we just not call them and let them show up on the dock? I think not. Do we just ignore them and hope they will go away?? I do know about weather dependency.

My initial order may be small, but I could have been a good customer. I'll be keeping a close eye on how this business handles it's problems. 

But I have seen it far too many times. When a business's phone mail box is full for days or weeks on end, they don't answer their emails and everyone and their brother is spitting mad at them, it is because they are usually out of control and have No good or reasonable answers.

Those that have gotten good service sing the praises of this company. It's funny they just can ignore the fact so many people have paid and have been ignored. 

Now with this recent tragedy they will be set back yet again. As I said, when my son was killed it was a horrible time and even though we wanted to, it was almost impossible to function. Of course we all are saddened by the turn of events. Who here has not had a loved one die? Horrible to see them go slow and suffer as my brother and father did, but equally as bad when they are taken unexpectedly and you didn't get the chance to say goodbye and that you loved them. A young person is hard because you think of all of life's adventures they will never get to experience. A good lesson for us all to live your life well, love your family and never take anything for granted.

I wish I lived closer to this apiary to volunteer to help in their time of crisis. 

My queen order means nothing to me now. I expect I'll get a refund at some point. 

One of my favorite phrase is "Over prepare, then go with the flow" Months ago I bought queen rearing stuff and now my weather is good enough to raise my own queens.

Now, I'll just go with the flow.

Lauri Miller

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510


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## mudlake

Something I heard a long time ago, and I do mean a long time ago."Take care of the pennys and the dollars will take care of themselves" I don't understand how they can take care of large orders when they can't take care of small orders. Is it harder to package 20 queens or 200 queens. If they are producing 150,000 queens at $30 or $40 a queen hire someone to answer the phone. Something that might help is at least delete the phone messages and e-mails at least you would think you are being heard. Tony


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## Specialkayme

Lauri said:


> Those that have gotten good service sing the praises of this company. It's funny they just can ignore the fact so many people have paid and have been ignored.


I don't think anyone is ignoring anyone else. I placed an order and paid on September 1, 2011 requesting a ship date as early in 2012 as possible (preferably before the end of April, in order to breed from them during the Tulip Poplar bloom). I also ordered a nuc. I have not received my queens or my nuc yet. Communication is hit or miss in these difficult times. Key words above were REQUESTING and YET. At least, to me. I'm not concerned. Not even a little. I know I will get my queens or I will get my refund. The Doc has always made things up in the end for me, and I know he is swamped. I'll give a man some breathing room.

If you aren't as patient, aren't as sure you will get your queens or get your refund, aren't as sure the Doc will make it up to you in the end, I understand. I disagree, but I understand. What gets frustrating is when people accuse him of being a con-man, a cheat, a liar, or a swindler. All he wants to do is help. All the customer wants is their demands fulfilled. 

I for one hope Russell's starts placing a minimum order requirement. I hope that minimum isn't that small either. I won't be able to get queens anymore, and I'll be pissed about it, but at least I'll stop hearing people whine and complain (either justified or not). Russell will be fine regardless.


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## Lauri

All the customer wants is their demands fulfilled?

More like, All the customer wants is his ORDER filled. 
Saying we are demanding makes it sound we are unreasonable and pushy.

As for larger orders, there is no reason several people can't get an order together to meet minimum requirements for ordering if that should be the case.


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## Daniel Y

It is not as simple as 20 Queens or 200. THe work is not packaging up a bee. It is in answering orders. writing shipping labels answering questions. filling special requests. being expected to know that the customer ordered a queen to meet the June honey flow. Fact is at the supplier end they are not going to remember or care when your flow is. that is your problem, plan ahead.

In my experience. I can fill one order for 200 units for an average of one label. one package and three e-mails. In addition I can remember and fill every minute detail of that customers desires. 200 units to 200 customers results in 200 labels 200 packages on average 600 e-mails and a real big I don't give a **** what else you want. It is not the sale that causes the problem. It is the customer. Multiply the customers you multiply the problems.



mudlake said:


> Something I heard a long time ago, and I do mean a long time ago."Take care of the pennys and the dollars will take care of themselves" I don't understand how they can take care of large orders when they can't take care of small orders. Is it harder to package 20 queens or 200 queens. If they are producing 150,000 queens at $30 or $40 a queen hire someone to answer the phone. Something that might help is at least delete the phone messages and e-mails at least you would think you are being heard. Tony


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## Specialkayme

Now I know why the Doc won't come back . . .


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## beeker

Daniel Y said:


> It is not as simple as 20 Queens or 200. THe work is not packaging up a bee. It is in answering orders. writing shipping labels answering questions. filling special requests. being expected to know that the customer ordered a queen to meet the June honey flow. Fact is at the supplier end they are not going to remember or care when your flow is. that is your problem, plan ahead.
> 
> In my experience. I can fill one order for 200 units for an average of one label. one package and three e-mails. In addition I can remember and fill every minute detail of that customers desires. 200 units to 200 customers results in 200 labels 200 packages on average 600 e-mails and a real big I don't give a **** what else you want. It is not the sale that causes the problem. It is the customer. Multiply the customers you multiply the problems.


This is nothing unique to this apiary or even this industry. Russell charges a premium for their queens. There is no reason they shouldn't be able to provide communication with their customers.


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## Skinner Apiaries

It's called good marketing. If you the consumer are willing to pay for his high dollar bees, then he'll charge it. I pay it. I get good bees from him. I wouldnt say great, but they few Ive gotten have been good.


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## Lauri

All good information for the consumer. It would have been nice to know BEFORE we all sent out money. Perhaps Beesource should start a thread to the New keepers who get excited about ordering a few queens from breeders. 

Here's the problem:
You click on Russell's web site, go to the queen page and think
"Oh cool! Look at all these queens!"
Like a kid in a candy store, new customers start choosing one of these, and two of those, etc.etc.

You anxiously await your new queens,
Then you start reading on this forum, folks are screaming mad and you think, "Uh Oh"
Then you jump into a thread that gets out of control and runs amok.

Some here seem to feel those people don't understand a thing about what it takes to fill their order and they are just LUCKY an apiary had the time to even take their money.

This so reminds me of a few years ago I shipped in semen to breed my mare. After all the time and $$ of prep for the mare, vet ultrasounds, etc. When the semen came in my vet said it was all dead, the worst semen sample he had ever seen, dirty with white cells in it. When I called the breeder, she wanted to charge me again for shipping and collection. I was shocked she would want me to pay MORE money and said I would not do so, she spat out:

"Shipping semen is a rich mans game."

Funny, she never told me that before I paid for it. I was expecting , if not professional service , at least competent service and a viable product.

If the farm, what ever the product, has dificulty handling orders or lots of customers, they need to say so right on the ordering page. Or just not offer a service they can't produce.

If they have a good web site, offer tons of choices, then can't deliver???That is the fault of the buyer? 

OK folks, now we know. Be warned.

After all this I expect, once the latest tragedy had been dealt with as well as possible,Mr. Russell will be posting a statement for changes to his business in the future. He will ether have to gear up with more office staff or turn away customers. It will be interesting to hear what he has to say after reading all this bickering. I don't have a fight with him, not mad at him or his business. It is those here that defend him to the death with no regard for our point of view that are starting to tick me off. 

Now we are all educated:
"It is not as simple as 20 Queens or 200. THe work is not packaging up a bee. It is in answering orders. writing shipping labels answering questions. filling special requests. being expected to know that the customer ordered a queen to meet the June honey flow. Fact is at the supplier end they are not going to remember or care when your flow is. that is your problem, plan ahead.

In my experience. I can fill one order for 200 units for an average of one label. one package and three e-mails. In addition I can remember and fill every minute detail of that customers desires. 200 units to 200 customers results in 200 labels 200 packages on average 600 e-mails and a real big I don't give a **** what else you want. It is not the sale that causes the problem. It is the customer. Multiply the customers you multiply the problems."

I understand completly. Makes perfect sense. When I ordered my queens this never crossed my mind and am glad it has been pointed out.
As long as this is disclosed to the customer before they place their order and they are aware, they can make an informed choice to take a chance on getting queens or not.

I'd love to get my Sunkist Cordovan queens. As a "been their, done that" adult in my 50's, not much excites me anymore, but it is like Christmas when you get new bee stuff. 

A bit of a let down when it just turns so ugly.


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## beeker

All good points Lauri. The excuses just don't fly when you consider there are other large operations out there that aren't having the same problems even though they also serve the hobbyist beekeeper. I also don't have anything against Dr Russell. From what I've seen he makes a great contribution to this field and goes out of his way to share his knowledge with others and I appreciate that. I'm not here to trash him personally and I don't think anyone else is. But being a great beekeeper doesn't make one a great business person. Those who don't like to hear others complain (and why are they even bothering to read these threads if they are so bothered by it?) will not hear me complaining in the future because I will be taking my business elsewhere until I have confidence that this one has taken seriously and resolved the customer service issues.

If what this companies defenders are saying is correct it doesn't speak well for the company they are defending. Buyer beware, if you are a small time beekeeper your business is not important enough or valued enough for you to be provided customer service. You'll get your bees when you get them and should be thankful you got to order from this company at all. If these are acceptable terms for you then maybe this is who you should do business with. It's not acceptable for me and I'll be taking my business to a producer that actually values me as a customer.


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## Specialkayme

Lauri said:


> OK folks, now we know. Be warned.


Yes. Now you know. As of May 20th you are warned.

Do a search for "Russell". Over 500 search results come back. Of the first 100, seventeen are directly about Russell Apiaries (or one of their genetic lines). Several of the threads are in the Consumer Reports section (although not all of them). By my count at least two of those 17 mentioned above are in the consumer reports thread. I know there are more, it's just a waste of my time to keep searching and looking. Several of those go back to 2010. Russell's is the ONLY breeder on this site (with the possible exception of Better Bee, depending if you consider them a breeder or not) that the moderators allow SEVERAL consumer reports threads to discuss them AT THE SAME TIME. If it was about any other breeder, they would have consolidated the threads.

Caveat emptor - Buyer Beware. The information was already there. Just because you didn't do a search on them before doesn't mean you couldn't have known about the issues.

Just saying.



Lauri said:


> It will be interesting to hear what he has to say after reading all this bickering.


He won't. He doesn't visit this site.



Lauri said:


> It is those here that defend him to the death with no regard for our point of view that are starting to tick me off.


Likewise it is those that are just interested in throwing mud and making wild accusations that are starting to tick me off. I'm not saying you are in that boat. Just making a comment generally.


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## cg3

FWIW- I've made 2 small orders. The first was sent in days. The second (this year) came a week after my requested date. The bees from last year are my best hives. That's what I know for sure.


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## Lauri

Strange some folks are having so much trouble and some get great service???


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## robherc

beeker said:


> If what this companies defenders are saying is correct it doesn't speak well for the company they are defending. Buyer beware, if you are a small time beekeeper your business is not important enough or valued enough for you to be provided customer service. You'll get your bees when you get them and should be thankful you got to order from this company at all. If these are acceptable terms for you then maybe this is who you should do business with. It's not acceptable for me and I'll be taking my business to a producer that actually values me as a customer.


Well, I'm not sure if I fit as one of the "defenders," but anywise, I will say that I agree about 90% with this part of your post. From what I can tell & have researched, Russell Apiaries used to ONLY cater to large, commercial customers, and now they allow hobbyist beeks to order from them, just don't expect them to "cater" to a hobbyist (which I _am_ a "lowly hobbyist" myself). Unfortunately, I don't expect that their customer service for those of us who can only afford to order 3, 5, 10, or 20 queens at a time will ever really improve, and it would likely help a LOT if that information were prominently displayed on their ordering page(s). That said, I'm still happy that they're willing to ship such small, and to them, totally insignificant orders, as I'd like to try out their genetics...whenever my number comes up in the queue, that is. Until then, I'll order any queens I need to receive in a timely manner from someone else who's cheaper, and runs a smaller operation/has time to answer my phone calls/emails/questions.
I guess the moral of the story here is: Research the company you're planning to order ANYTHING from before you place your order, just like in any other field of agriculture, or even business in general, then make an informed decision, and place your orders knowing what to expect, and what you need. If you need bees in a timely manner, or quick answers to your correspondence, Russell Apiaries is probably one of the worst suppliers you could order from, and I think they have little/no plans to change that, BUT if you have other sources for "right now" queens, they MIGHT be a viable choice for you to order some "whenever they get here, they get here" queens to improve your colonies' genetics with. It's not very convenient, but if you want to find out if the bees are really "all they're cracked up to be," there are ways to plan so you can work around the inconvenience...that's one of the drawbacks to being a "little guy," if you don't believe me, go on alibaba.com and try to order less than 2000lbs of just about anything , I think that's the class that Russell Apiaries is in, and "little guys" like me would not be wise to expect much service in either location.


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## beemandan

I knew a fellow many years ago who was a talented and creative engineer. He designed and patented an analog to digital conversion device….remember this was MANY years ago. He figured to make millions. But…he just couldn’t sell them. As he approached bankruptcy he sold rights to his device to a marketing fellow. The marketing fellow hired a manufacturing engineer and began manufacturing and marketing. He hired a customer service manager and a accountant. The marketing fellow became a multimillionaire with that device. You see, the marketing fellow knew he wasn’t skilled in all the areas he needed to succeed. So he hired folks with those skills. I don’t know Robert Russell, have never done business with his company but I’m guessing, from what I’ve read, he could take a lesson from the marketing fellow in my story.


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## beeG

beemandan said:


> I knew a fellow many years ago who was a talented and creative engineer. He designed and patented an analog to digital conversion device….remember this was MANY years ago. He figured to make millions. But…he just couldn’t sell them. As he approached bankruptcy he sold rights to his device to a marketing fellow. The marketing fellow hired a manufacturing engineer and began manufacturing and marketing. He hired a customer service manager and a accountant. The marketing fellow became a multimillionaire with that device. You see, the marketing fellow knew he wasn’t skilled in all the areas he needed to succeed. So he hired folks with those skills. I don’t know Robert Russell, have never done business with his company but I’m guessing, from what I’ve read, he could take a lesson from the marketing fellow in my story.


This is exactly the case, an ongoing issue in most all yor ag ventures. Having the ability to produce, market, distribute and be good on all ends. That would be an extreemly rare company. But as a educated consumer. I prefer the company that excels in the production department, even if they are not so good at distributing. I prefer this much over the company that is excellent at marketing and distributing, but lacks in the production. As a 2nd year bee keeper and a veterian of the USAF ( had to say that because I hate when people pull the military card epscially if they use it to attack others) Well these threads disturb me. Because all you see here on beesource is battles against other bee keepers, very little in education, and alot in consperecy theories. Arent we all grown ups here? you are not going to resolve the world issues by bitting off like minded peoples heads. I too have queens coming. I have been contacted, but it was I who asked to hold off on shipping them, because of that odd usurption looking swarm. Which most likely came from my mother hive. Unless queens can change colors. I finally saw sneeky again today and she went from a yellow banded bee to an all black bee. I did notice a month before that swarm a very very poor brood patern from her hive . Sneeky was never a good queen. I got only a finger lick of honey from that hive, and it was so bone dry on stores after feeding a truck load of sugar water 1/1 that I was shocked no stores for the winter. I put on candy boards and gee they survived. My queen came from surivor stock. I bought her from a third party, a hippy group that were anti GMO and treatment.


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## seal62

Mike, 

From what I gather, the nucs that you guys took up there were light on brood. Just wanted to let you know that I would send you some packages in spring to make up for whatever isn't right. Thats not the way our nucs are suppose to be, as I'm sure you have heard from everyone else that has bought them. I would like to try to figure out what went wrong so it doesn't happen in the future though. Can you tell me if there was any capped brood or no brood at all? Also can you tell me if the nucs had plenty of bees in them? Best I can figure so far is that the queens had started shutting down during the dearth and then were caged and then released, and then caged again the next weekend, so they may not have started laying again yet after the first caging... that would set the already dwindling brood back about a week and a half to two weeks from the time that we first caged them to the time that you transferred them... they were caged the first time when we thought you were coming down, then when we heard that you couldn't make it that week, they were released until the next week when we caged them again for you to pick them up... so I can see how there would be a pretty big lapse in brood if the queens didn't start back laying yet by the time that they were caged the second time... like I said, I stand behind my bees, so rest assured, I will make it right. Just trying to get a good idea of what happened, so the situation doesn't happen again. Thanks.
www.russellapiaries.com


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## seal62

Well...thank you for making me go there>  All it takes is a NOTE ..example ..dog i didn"t forget about you . I'm kinda busy but i'll hook you up . Does anyone here think this is fun ? Here"s fun ...man the bees are awesome ... i cant build box's fast enough . What am i going to do with all this honey ? That said ..let me get on a flack jacket ...i hear a whistling sound ,,,,incomming  .


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## robherc

I agree, the service you, and many others, got sux...no two ways about it. I fully understand why you're feeling quite "put off" (to say the least) by the experience and, as we have discussed in chat, would probably feel about the same myself, and would defo. never order from them again given your expectations & what you experienced instead seal62.
That said, I still plan to (eventually) order a few queens from them, just to see if the genetics are really "all that", and hope you won't count me less of a friend because of it. I will, however, thanks to your & several others' relating your experiences, be prepared for a very long wait, and know not to count on the service, not to mention knowing to have stocked hives, that are already ready to overwinter WITHOUT the help of the new queens, waiting for them as I'm guessing I'd be quite "put out" myself if I had any higher expectations than to have to support the queen through the winter off of another queen's bees/stores.

Hopefully at some point you DO get your refund/replacement bees...but I fully understand why, either way, you'll very likely never want to have any further dealings with the company...see my earlier posts about researching companies before ordering, I learned that one the hard way too


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## My-smokepole

I did a order for the club the end of March for 11 queens. I know of only two that became good layers Five died with in a week. and I dont know how the others are doing. I have read the tread and under stand there challenges. But to not answer mail is not a good thing. Still waiting after a week after I e-mailed them.
David


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## SPRUCE BEE

My-smokepole said:


> I did a order for the club the end of March for 11 queens. I know of only two that became good layers Five died with in a week. and I dont know how the others are doing. I have read the tread and under stand there challenges. But to not answer mail is not a good thing. Still waiting after a week after I e-mailed them.
> David


Russells have always responded to my pm's & emails. Queen quality is good. Sucessfully introduced 23 out of 24 queens. What do you suspect for such poor queen survival & introduction?


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## Lauri

Just in case you missed this post:

swarm_trapper 
View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Add as Contact Send Email 
Join Date:Jun 2003
Location:Lakeland FL
Posts:769 Re: Russell? Beating a dead horse? 
Well i ordered 100 Italians this spring for some splits to try them and see if they lived up the the hype, i waited for them two weeks after they were supposed to be delivered i then finally was told about the storms and that they would not be here till a week or two, so not being able to wait a month from when they were supposed to be split, i told them to cancel and refund my money. So far im still waiting with no response to my emails, if any one from russells reads this please contact me i need my 2000$ back thank you. From what i hear they have had a lot of problems and i understand a few delays but how about a response to an email is that too much?
Nick Groenhof


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## mudlake

I have to the same question as others have. How can one person have such good service. (I did not have good service) Next person like me can't get an e-mail answer or even leave a phone message. I have a job where I have to be there no work no pay, after taking several days off the $30 queens cost a lot more than $30. This was their date for shipment not mine. I was accused of bashing when I asked how to contact Russell.??? on this forum no response on their forum e-mail or phone. All I really wanted to know was were they going to ship, paypal was my only contact. Sorry I did not have a good winter with sunkist. Thanks for your time Tony


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## robherc

mudlake: from the comments I've seen here & elsewhere, I'd have to say that the concensus seems to be that e-mail is the best contact for them. I'm sure they're way behind answering emails right now, but it seems there's no better way at the moment


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## FindlayBee

Has anyone tried sending a letter via certified mail asking what is going on with their order?


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## julysun

I spent many years buying engineering products of one stripe or the other. At least half of the problem is always with the customer. That said I plan to purchase the AMM little black bee from Russell whether he wants my order or not.


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## Barry Digman

One could always raise their own queens.


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## Lauri

Problem is for me, I can't start grafting my own queens until the middle of May, due to my weather. My order of purchased queens is always in early spring before I can make my own to split the strongest overwintered hives nice and early. I had a few I was worried about swarming and when my queens order didn't materialize, I just gave a few frames of bees and brood to hives I wasn't worried about.
Some of us take advantage of warmer climates in this instance. Or at least try to. My order last year was from BeeWeaver. No problems, great service. Not a lot of choices though. But after reading this thread, I would hesitate to order more than one strain do the apparent difficulty of the additional paperwork and coordinating it causes the breeder.
Three of these and three of those makes for a questionable delivery date.


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## WPG

I'm one of the little guys, hope to get bigger.

Raise some of my own queens, club secretary supplies alot of us with queens, but I hope my bucks and Russell's availability of summer queens matches up sometime. I *really* want some of those Moonbeams.

I will be tickled pink they show up when they show up. I appreciate that he is messing with such small fry as us. I hope you'all don't burn him out before I can get them.

But then I seem to always be a day late and a dollar short, and things seldom workout as I plan. Maybe next year.


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## Lauri

I've been jealously reading for months, those in warmer climates working their bees and collection swarms, etc.
All the while my over wintered bees are still huddled in the hives, with only an occasional cleansing flight.
I wish I could be as patient as some of you who can be OK with accepting your queens anytime they should show.
If they 'show' here too late in the fall, They will just go right into a hive preparing to over winter, and you know how that goes.
The inactive period my bees have to endure is a little scary already. I have heard the Sunkist queens may not do well here in the North. My plan was to split my hives early, get a few of the strongest queens grafted and mated with local drones for a hardier bee that would stand a better chance for survival. 
Like I said in another post, I've pretty much lost interest in Russell queens. It's not worth the hassle and being involved in all the drama. I just wish I had known early enough so I could have ordered queens from somewhere else. I only get one short season, then it is a long wait until next year to try new ideas. The only reason I'm posting here is to give others the info they need to make an informed choice when ordering from this company. I wish I'd done a little more research before I placed my order.

Someone said it is 'Known' that if you need queens for timed splits or in a certain time frame, Don't order from Russell. I had never seen that anywhere. THAT needs to be in plain view on their web site-right on the ordering page. There is a lot of info on their web site, but you have to search all over for it. I wasn't interested in taking the time to read all the forum posts or search for hidden clues.

I am somewhat take aback from Russells defenders. With no input from this company, I can only wonder if what they say is true or not concerning Russell Apiaries business policies.
What I do know is the average consumer expects an industry standard of product and service when ordering from a said company. If Russell has a different customer service procedure that what the customer generally would expect, they certainly need to say so plainly. They don't have a crystal ball and cannot predict tornadoes or accidents. We don't have a crystal ball and with no communication from them, cannot guess what they are thinking or doing.


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## losloboid

*customer service from Russell Apairies*

Is anyone else out there having bad experiences with Russell Apiaries? I am desperate for help. I contacted Russell Apiaries on March 10 to see if they had queens available for some queenless hives. I told them I need them ASAP and would only place an order if they had queens in stock and could ship immediately. It took them one week to respond to my email, but they sent me an email saying they had a big order cancel and they could get 10 queens out to me if I would just go online and pay them. I said great and paid using paypal. The queens never came, I emailed them constantly and never would have placed the order if they had not told me they could ship the queens right out. I know they have experienced some terrible storms since then, but my order was placed before the storms hit by a couple of weeks........Well my emergency order of queens never came so on April 13 I canceled the order and asked for a refund ( I lost half the queenless hives). Russell Apiaries will not respond to my emails or phone calls and they have not refunded my money. I am at the mercy of a faceless company that does not care. Has anyone else out there had an experience like this. How can a business continue to stay in business when they steal money from people like this????? No bees and no refund, in all 50 states that is theft. I would strongly caution anyone out there to think twice about ordering from Russell Apiaries. They have lots of different kinds of queens, but their customer service is non existent. 

By the way, I had another order placed for about 20 queens, those came after the aftermath of the storms. They arrived pretty much on time considering the mess from the storms. I don't have any issues with that, although several of the queens never laid. I believe they were virgins that were too old to breed by the time the storm was finished,anyway that is a different story.

I am very disappointed and I fear that I will never see my $250 again.

Beware!!


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## giant pumpkin peep

*Re: customer service from Russell Apairies*

Got a shipping email today. Exactly 8 days after scheduled. Consiering all the stuff that has happened, I'm ok with that.


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## My-smokepole

It took me posting on there foram to get a responds out of them. In doing so they are replacing 9 queens. 
David


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## NDnewbeek

Barry Digman said:


> One could always raise their own queens.


For some of us (and the farther north you get - I think the more this applies), this isn't a realistic option, particularly early in the season. Most years, I don't have drones here until mid/late May - and those are the drones from the commercial operations. There is no way that I can control for genetics. If I tried to raise my own queens at that point, I would have queens hybridized with Italians bred for the commercial industry. This means that I would likely have few hives overwinter successfully.

Additionally, our growing season is so short (most years) that the time it takes to go from an egg to a laying queen (generally at least a month or so) and then hatch the first real cycle of brood (another 3-4 weeks) means that I am having hives or nucs that are just getting started in early/mid July at best. They aren't surviving the winter either.

I have produced some queens myself. Often this is either 1) by accident or 2) with the intent of producing a 'replacement' queen for other hives in the fall. Spring queens though - I have to buy.

Mike


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## Specialkayme

Lauri said:


> THAT needs to be in plain view on their web site-right on the ordering page. . . I wasn't interested in taking the time to read all the forum posts


I'm sorry that you didn't know that earlier, but your own "interest" led you to not fully read about what you were ordering. The information was there. Granted it wasn't in bold letters, staring you in the face right before you clicked "pay" but the information was there none the less. If you were not interested in looking for some more information . . . either doing a search for "Russell" on this site, or looking at the forums on his site . . . you kinda get what you get. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the same thing with anything else you order. 



Lauri said:


> I am somewhat take aback from Russells defenders. With no input from this company, I can only wonder if what they say is true or not concerning Russell Apiaries business policies.


I'm really disappointed by that comment.

I understand that you are disappointed with Russell's. I understand that you had certain expectations and the real life didn't live up to those. There is no reason to imply that I, or anyone else here, is intentionally lying to you. That's just cold. 

And this right here is one of the largest issues I have with the people on this site. Beekeepers in general are very supportive. Every beekeeper I've met in person will help you out in any way you need. They treat you with respect, and they know that beekeepers stick together. Obviously, all beekeepers don't agree and have arguments, but they never turn on their own kind (with a few warranted exceptions). But then we come to the internet and things change. You disagree with what I have to say, so instead of disputing it or discussing it, you turn against me. You accuse me of lying to you, feeding you false information, or having ulterior motives. That hurts the whole industry in my opinion.


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## swarm_trapper

Victoria contacted me at russell's and as soon as Robert gets in the office to approve the refund i will get my money back. So i should be good to go. just though id let every one know that they are working with me. 
Nick


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## Lauri

Not picking a fight with you, but really this is the thing that keeep this thread going and going.

"I'm sorry that you didn't know that earlier, but your own "interest" led you to not fully read about what you were ordering. The information was there. Granted it wasn't in bold letters, staring you in the face right before you clicked "pay" but the information was there none the less."

Do you or do you not have to join the club to view their web page? I don't have the time to join a bunch of internet sites and read to my hearts content. That's why I have money to buy queens. I work most of the day.

"I'm really disappointed by that comment. I understand that you are disappointed with Russell's. I understand that you had certain expectations and the real life didn't live up to those. There is no reason to imply that I, or anyone else here, is intentionally lying to you. That's just cold."

I did not word that correctly. If I was calling you a lier you would absolutly know it with no doubt.
What I said was I said I didn't know if Russell defenders statements were true or not. Here's the difference:
A few customers perceptions of what this company's policies and business practices are may NOT be exactly correct. I would not want others to establish what my policies are, I'd want people to hear them right from me to be sure they are totally correct and to consider any details.
Your perception and views may be based on your knowledge and friendship with Mr. Russell, but still may be your own perception. Sorry for the offence, it was not intended. I did not name you and really, you were not the 'target' There are many others who have stated their comments too.

Don't get your hackles up, LOL..I apologize for accidently offending you.


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## losloboid

swarm_trapper said:


> Victoria contacted me at russell's and as soon as Robert gets in the office to approve the refund i will get my money back. So i should be good to go. just though id let every one know that they are working with me.
> Nick


This company will make promises to refund your money, but I believe they purposely delay you until it is to late to file a complaint with PayPal. PayPal has a 45 day period until they will no longer open a dispute. I too was promised a refund by Victoria until after my 45 day limit expired, then..............no response from Russell Apairies. Beware all you defenders, there is a wolf in sheeps clothing.


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## Specialkayme

Lauri said:


> Do you or do you not have to join the club to view their web page? I don't have the time to join a bunch of internet sites and read to my hearts content. That's why I have money to buy queens. I work most of the day.


Personally I don't really see the issue with joining the site. It literally takes 5 min. If you aren't interested in doing it, that's fine, but don't say you couldn't have known. You could have, but you chose not to. Once you join the site, it isn't like you need to spend hours and hours scouring the site. About a half an hour would probably give you a good idea of the information you want. If you don't have a half an hour to research behind your couple hundred, or couple thousand dollar order, you should rethink your ordering process. Not an insult (or not intended). If I didn't have anything other than 5 min to place an order with someone, I'd call someone local and wouldn't take a chance on ANYONE that was out of state. That way if there is a problem you can show up at their door step. If you take a chance with someone you don't know anything about, and you didn't take the time to look into it, there is risk associate with that.

But if we were to assume that Russell's did owe you a certain amount of disclosure (which I don't think they do) and we assume that the location of that disclosure currently isn't fair (i.e. the forums, which I don't think it isn't), I still don't really see the issue. Instead of placing the information on the forum, Robert could instead make a 25 page "disclosure sheet" that you need to check next to saying you read it. Who would read it? If you don't have the five min to register and the 30 min to look at the forums, you won't have the time to read the 25 page "disclosure sheet" and you'd be in the same position. There is just too much information to have everything upfront, in bold. So if you didn't look at the information where it was, it doesn't really matter if they move it to a new location and have it flash colors, most people still won't read it. He presented the information, you could have read it if you wanted to, you chose not to, to me that's enough.



Lauri said:


> I would not want others to establish what my policies are, I'd want people to hear them right from me to be sure they are totally correct and to consider any details.
> Your perception and views may be based on your knowledge and friendship with Mr. Russell, but still may be your own perception.


I totally agree. I'm not the official voice of Russell Apiaries. Take that into consideration.

However, the official voice of Russell Apiaries has been run off by the official voice of Beesource. Rumor has it that a Russell member is allowed to log into this site, but isn't allowed to post anymore. Just a rumor. 

His employees used to post frequently as well. They were ridiculed, so they stopped. I don't blame them.

So yes, I'm not the official voice of Russell's, but the official voices were here and no one wanted to hear from them, so they left (some voluntarily, some involuntarily). If you want information, at the time being the loyal customers are your best source. If you want to just scream at the wall and get zero answers, I'll gladly stop posting. Some information is better than none, especially when you ask questions.



Lauri said:


> Sorry for the offence, it was not intended. I did not name you and really, you were not the 'target' There are many others who have stated their comments too.


My issue wasn't with just calling me a liar, it's with calling Russell customers generally liars. 

Lets not turn against ourselves here. We are all in the same boat.

No offense taken. Just words to think about.


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## Lauri

Sheesh! I give up.


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## Barry

"However, the official voice of Russell Apiaries has been run off by the official voice of Beesource. Rumor has it that a Russell member is allowed to log into this site, but isn't allowed to post anymore. Just a rumor"

Must be like that rumor that you're actually Russell.


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## NY_BLUES

I dont know what every ones situation is,but i ordered my queens last year and i received my moonbeams today, which is on time delivery btw, and they actually threw in an extra 4 queens, 2 they say are a hybrid #410 and 2 danish. I guess a little professionalism and understanding goes a long way when dealing with them. I am super impressed! They always returned my emails and calls, never had an issue dealing with them! Oh and i have had more than one dealing with them also.


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## Riskybizz

When I posted this initial thread I had no idea that 93 posts later it would still be an ongoing issue or concern. I simply wanted to pass along the information that I had received my queens from Russell in a timely manner and that Russell and his staff had always been professional and had kept in touch. I had never ordered his queens before but I wanted to try some of the Sunkist. I would not hesitate to order queens from them in the future. I for one have very much enjoyed my time visiting and posting on this website. Thank you Barry for providing this service. Perhaps there are others that have grown tired of the trials and tribulations of one queen breeder just trying to make a living like everyone else. NY Blues and Lauri is looks like you both have done very well by Russell. Peace to you all and good luck with your bees.


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## Greg Lowe

Barry said:


> Must be like that rumor that you're actually Russell.


Barry,
I guess you could do an IP address check and either confirm it or put any such rumor to rest??? 

From another thread you wrote:


Barry said:


> You should change it to your real location. I made a serious error approving your false registration, David. One thing you can't change is your IP address.


Or maybe you are just kidding.


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## robherc

Just a guess, but I'm guessing Barry was "just kidding" on that one...if Dr. Russell had THAT MUCH free time to argue with random people on BeeSource, then I'm guessing he'd be spending the time on answering emails from irate customers instead...or at least I'd _HOPE_ that would be the case, as it'd do far more for his bottom-line IMHO 
(Oh, and before any rumors get started, I'm just a nobody who has no affiliation with anyone...except for my wife, of course  )


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## Greg Lowe

lol - Same here. And mine just called to say supper is ready


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## Barry

Greg Lowe said:


> Barry,
> I guess you could do an IP address check and either confirm it or put any such rumor to rest???
> 
> Or maybe you are just kidding.


That's the problem with rumors, you don't know if they're true or not!


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## seal62

So now this thread is up to 5000 views . Defenders vs stiffed customers . I can take vids of perfect patterns and some i have to squish . The major issue is money . Im pretty sure everyone here works hard for their money too . When people that have payed a year in advance for queens see someone say ...I got mine it tends to set the rest of of us off . Is this company a Seinfeld show with a soup nazi ? No queens for you . The key word here is juvenile . I'm dealing with children . This company needs to put its big boy pants on and live up to its bragging or get out of this biz . There is no way i would have payed for this product if it wasnt from this site and the rave reviews and the smack Bob said about backing up his bees . Wheres Waldo ? Wheres my refund ? Wheres my bees ? Nice echo . That was my money flushed . Barry ,,,i sure hope Bob is pulled from the breeder list . The only course of action i have left is legal .


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## losloboid

seal62 said:


> So now this thread is up to 5000 views . Defenders vs stiffed customers . I can take vids of perfect patterns and some i have to squish . The major issue is money . Im pretty sure everyone here works hard for their money too . When people that have payed a year in advance for queens see someone say ...I got mine it tends to set the rest of of us off . Is this company a Seinfeld show with a soup nazi ? No queens for you . The key word here is juvenile . I'm dealing with children . This company needs to put its big boy pants on and live up to its bragging or get out of this biz . There is no way i would have payed for this product if it wasnt from this site and the rave reviews and the smack Bob said about backing up his bees . Wheres Waldo ? Wheres my refund ? Wheres my bees ? Nice echo . That was my money flushed . Barry ,,,i sure hope Bob is pulled from the breeder list . The only course of action i have left is legal .


I could not have said it better my self, it is easy to be popular when the sun is shining, but when the chips are down, where is mister professional now.....To all those of you who are staunch lovers, all I can say is your day is coming. And one more thing.....You can only buy using paypal and paypal has a 45 window to file a complaint. When you order moonbeam queens 6 months in advance and they never arrive, this is way past paypal's window to file a complaint......believe me I have tried, and don't think that Russell does not know this. There are lots of breeders out there and I will not give robert another penny of mine!


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## Vance G

I hope no one is ever so happy about your misfortune as many seem to be about Russells problems. I would wager that he will clean up this mess given time. I may be wrong, but I believe in the goodnes of the man if not in his managerial heft. I am one of those smucks waiting for moonbeams since having paid in October. It has been a total pain in the butt and forced me to find other sources for queens at additional expense and trouble. It has screwed up a planned Memorial Day Vacation because I don't dare leave. I will not get to fairly test the queens for production because I am not going to screw up production hives now! I will just have more bees I have to feed and wrap for winter starting from the small splits they will be now. But I am still not flippin happy the man is having trouble and I am not calling him a thief. I am not trying to affect his livlihood by getting him banned in Barryland! It is a moot issue I imagine. I can't believe he will keep supplying the hobby market anyway and he probably shouldn't if unwilling to staff for it.


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## robherc

FYI, I just read on the forums on the Russell Apiaries website that RRussell has decided to end sales to the public after this year. There was mention of a plan to open "local" Russell Apiaries sites in most states, for sales to the public after that, but I don't fully understand how those are going to be organized, so I won't attempt describing it further & end up a liar 

That said, RRussell said that current orders WILL NOT be negatively affected in any way by this decision, just that after this year there will be no purchasing of queens directly from "main" Russell Apiaries in less than commercial quantities.

And now I'll close with this: "Let the fireworks begin!" :lookout:


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## Lauri

I'd like to say my comments on this thread were meant only to let other potential customers know if they order from this company not to expect their orders at any certain time. Not trying to bad mouth this company, the owners or the employees. It was pointed out they have had trying times. The lack communication was the main concern for most.

I had not endlessly tried to email the company or call. Enough people here had already done that and I knew by also doing so I would just be adding to the problem. My continued replies here have been spurred on by other posts I felt I really needed to respond to. 
And as typically happens on forum, a few tempers flair, the post gets a bit off topic and turns into personal issues. I admit I was caught up in the concern of others and posted a few somewhat harsh comments. 

It seems Russell is trying to catch up and in some cases bends over backwards to make it up to the customer. Someone here on beesource made a phone call in my behalf and Victoria emailed me immediately. Not sure if it was out of kindness or to get me to shut up..LOL, but that leaves me in a funny predicament. I received service that was better that necessary and I appreciate the effort. There are still some that have been overlooked and until they are taken care of there will be anger on their end.

Here is my email to Victoria:
"Thank you Victoria for your reply. Of course we all wish you well and am sorry it has been such a rough year for you.
Virgins will work for me and a full box would be great. Mostly Sunkist cordovans with a few buckfast to try if they both are available.
I wish I could help somehow with your run of bad luck. I hope at some point your side of the story will be posted for folks to read and help them understand the difficulty you have suffered. The second hand news on Beesourse should be taken with a grain of salt, but there are those that will make their judgements based on mis-information."


Just posting this to let those know they are still trying and to those that are angry I hope you are also contacted and your order /money is sent to you soon.
Lauri


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## RiodeLobo

robherc said:


> FYI, I just read on the forums on the Russell Apiaries website that RRussell has decided to end sales to the public after this year.


And from this happy and thankful customer of Russell Apiaries I would like to thank everyone for their contribution to this decision. Job well done.:applause:


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## julysun

"FYI, I just read on the forums on the Russell Apiaries website that RRussell has decided to end sales to the public after this year." robherc

Hammer a business long and hard enough and sometimes your wishes come true. Sad.


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## kincade

That is not great news but very unsurprising IMHO. From the accusations that they made up the deaths of 2 of their friends/family, of no storm damage 2 years in a row, and of false postings under different names can you blame them? One of the posters is even throwing out veiled physical threats. I can't see how it would be worth it from a business standpoint.

Far be it from me to judge those who haven't gotten the products they have paid for. And there is no doubt that some of the communication has been less than acceptable. But the rhetoric, accusations, and threats has gotten a bit out of control here.

As to my experience, I received my Russell Carniolan queen yesterday. It shipped 1 week later than expected. USPS lost the package for a night so it went 2 day instead of overnight (which had nothing to do with Russell), but the queen and attendants looked to be good when I installed them today. I hope she performs well and that the overnight layover somewhere in the US didn't effect her.


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## kenr

Yes congrats to all you folks who did nothing on here but bash Dr Russell you just shut down a resource to get genetics that could not be gotten anywheres else.Yes they had problems but what company doesn't.


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## Skinner Apiaries

Oh well, Russell misses out. I buy small quantities and select for breeders. Ive heard some guys talking about reselling for him. With our own outfit starting II this fall, I'd expect we can do all kinds of interesting things. Seems like the solution would be hire some girls to staff the office and start weeding through a semi reliable calender. One thing is sure in bees, if you do 3 times whatever you have sold, youll always have it covered. And queens? Everybody ALWAYS wants more queens. Always at the last minute. So... Id take the stress and pass it off on some young purdy things with phones and the internet.


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## rweakley

All I know is my dealings with them have been exemplary. The 2 Italian/carnolian queens I got are laying wall to wall, I mean they are barely leaving room at the top and sides for any honey. I will miss being able to get queens from them directly. I may have to order a few more this year just to get the genetic additions I wanted, unfortunately I won't get to keep either of the it/car, because I had so much trouble getting queens mated myself that they are going into a customer's nucs. Maybe in the future I can get my local club big enough that we can put a group order together that would be big enough.


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## the doc

i would agree my dealings with them have been great and have received timely responses to emails. 

Dr Russell personally replaced several queens last year at no cost to me when they did not take even though i suggested it was likely my fault. How many suppliers would do that?


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## WPG

Lauri said:


> I'd like to say my comments on this thread were meant only to let other potential customers know if they order from this company not to expect their orders at any certain time. Not trying to bad mouth this company, the owners or the employees. Lauri


Poppycock

What makes you think your numerous negative posts would help any new potential customers when you yourself didn't take the time to read the various posts about variable delivery?

I don't think you recieved special service because you were the loudest squeak, I think it was because they didn't meet their own expectations(_despite all the tribulations_) and tried to make it up to you.

I had hoped their genetics would help me get to commercial status, now I'll need to get to commercial status before I can get their genetics.

I'll think of you and seal when I get there.


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## jim lyon

WPG said:


> I had hoped their genetics would help me get to commercial status, now I'll need to get to commercial status before I can get their genetics.
> 
> I'll think of you and seal when I get there.


I would like to hear from even one of said commercials who have relied on Russell queens to grow their business. All the ones I know personally are relying on $3 queen cells and they better not be a day late. Speaking from personal experience, any queen that is more than about a week late is virtually worthless in an operation where timing and seasonal moves dictate virtually everything that you do.


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## NDnewbeek

jim lyon said:


> I would like to hear from even one of said commercials who have relied on Russell queens to grow their business. All the ones I know personally are relying on $3 queen cells and they better not be a day late. Speaking from personal experience, any queen that is more than about a week late is virtually worthless in an operation where timing and seasonal moves dictate virtually everything that you do.


Agreed - I know plenty of commercial beekeepers. I don't know any who pay more than about $14-18/queen or they use queen cells. 

Further, Russell doesn't monitor, post or read this site anymore (according to previous posts of those who know). If so, then how could people's dissatisfaction with his service (posted here) have contributed to his decision? If he doesn't read or visit the site anymore, than he isn't aware of any of this firsthand. I suspect that there are plenty of other factors (most that we aren't aware of) that have contributed to this apparent decision by the company. 

I don't have an interest in whether he continues to sell to hobbyists or not. I haven't used his queens and I haven't spent money with him only to be left without queens. Just by reading all of the threads and posts on his operation though, it seems like he wasn't ready for the demands of the hobby market (in terms of staff and customer expectations). Right or wrong, there seem to be a lot of dissatisfied, unhappy customers out there.

There are only two responses to this from a business standpoint, 1. fix the problem (hire more staff, increase production, etc.) or 2. get out of that particular market. The Russell operation seems to recognize this (which is a credit to the operation - there are other threads on this site about suppliers with similar problems who have steadfastly refused to recognize the situation until it has forced them completely out of business). They have chosen to address the problem by scaling back. This doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Perhaps in the future, Russell will attempt a second foray into the hobby market and, at that time, be better prepared from this most recent experience and be more successful.

In the meantime, there seems to be a lot of anguish over not being able to buy his particular queens anymore. This I don't entirely understand. His queens may be very good - but he isn't the only competent queen breeder out there. I am about as far away from production queens as anyone can get (save Alaska and parts of Canada). I have very little trouble finding excellent queens and good people willing to ship them, on time (presently, I use queens from three sources shipped from CA, OK and OH). 

No one persons queens are the 'silver bullet' or key to your beekeeping success. There are plenty of breeders producing queens just as good or better than Russells out there. To react to this information as though now your entire beekeeping future is in jeopardy is a bit over the top.

Mike


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## beehugheshoney

Here is one. He's never been late for me but he has asked if I could take them early. I get a few boxes a year for splits in March and nucs in fall. Couldn't be happier. Commercials don't order from his website. My son works for him. They cater to California big time. People going in and out of almonds is where their money is. Breeders too. I'm not gettin in it but I don't see any commercials that I know on here. The few that were didn't hang around long. The idea of a place to chat is good but when your livelihood becomes a public debate its gone too far I think. I may get special treatment but I know a bunch of good guys that get Russell queens and cells too. They are cheaper than some and more than others but they do a good job for me.


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## TIMER

Enough he said she said crap. THE BOTTOM LINE!!!! If you take a customers $$$ you must provide the product or refund the money. I know some of these customers have waited over a year. That's long enough, give them their money back and be done with it.


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## losloboid

I want to post on this thread that i did receive my refund from Russell Apiaries. 3 months late, but to his credit I did receive it.


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## Specialkayme

TIMER said:


> I know some of these customers have waited over a year.


Who has waited over a year?

If you ordered a queen in October for next spring, I wouldn't exactly say you were waiting for that whole time, as it's expected delivery was in 2012, not in October when you bought it.

But if you did order for a Spring 2011 delivery and you didn't receive anything (queen or refund by now), yes, that is a problem. I don't know if I heard of anyone who that has happened to though . . . 



losloboid said:


> i did receive my refund from Russell Apiaries. 3 months late,


So you asked for a refund at the end of February?


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## hystad

NDnewbeek said:


> Agreed - I know plenty of commercial beekeepers. I don't know any who pay more than about $14-18/queen or they use queen cells.


Just like many other producers his price goes down the more you buy. $1900 for 100 queens isn't that far off. 

There are alot of over the top people that both like and dislike Russell. If your queen was to be delivered in April or May and you haven't got it or a refund yet then it is less than 2 months late, not a year. Everyone understands that timing is very important in beekeeping and that by not getting your queens on time it could ruin your season. But if something is that important to you you should do your do diligence and research your purchace. If you have enough time to complain on Beesource you should have enough time to research a vendor on Beesource. 

I would bet that he doesn't have the same delivery and communication problems with his commercial accounts. They most likely have the priority over everyone else and have a seperate phone line to call where someone is always available. Thats why you don't have commercials complaining and thats why he still is in business. I'm sure he wants to make everyone happy but if a few hobbiests have late orders how does that affect his big picture? 

I think he is going to setup a system were hobbiests can still get his breeds of bees. It shouldn't matter that much anyways. If you wanted his bees enough you could organize a group buy.


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## beeker

NDnewbeek said:


> There are only two responses to this from a business standpoint, 1. fix the problem (hire more staff, increase production, etc.) or 2. get out of that particular market. The Russell operation seems to recognize this (which is a credit to the operation - there are other threads on this site about suppliers with similar problems who have steadfastly refused to recognize the situation until it has forced them completely out of business). They have chosen to address the problem by scaling back. This doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Perhaps in the future, Russell will attempt a second foray into the hobby market and, at that time, be better prepared from this most recent experience and be more successful.
> 
> In the meantime, there seems to be a lot of anguish over not being able to buy his particular queens anymore. This I don't entirely understand. His queens may be very good - but he isn't the only competent queen breeder out there. I am about as far away from production queens as anyone can get (save Alaska and parts of Canada). I have very little trouble finding excellent queens and good people willing to ship them, on time (presently, I use queens from three sources shipped from CA, OK and OH).
> 
> No one persons queens are the 'silver bullet' or key to your beekeeping success. There are plenty of breeders producing queens just as good or better than Russells out there. To react to this information as though now your entire beekeeping future is in jeopardy is a bit over the top.
> 
> Mike


This pretty well sums it up. Some of you need to stop blaming the customer. In a free market if you don't satisfy your customers there is a price to be paid for that. If you don't like that, too bad. This industry is no exception to the rule. They aren't the only ones selling queens. Some companies have great reviews, some don't. So who is responsible for that? The customer? Russell Apiaries just somehow managed to get customers that demand too much while other companies got better customers? Of course not.

This decision to discontinue sales to the general public seems to confirm that for Dr Russell, it just isn't worth it to the company, in fact he pretty much said that in his announcement. Maybe that is part of why opening up sales to the public didn't work out for them. Just a thought.

For those braying about not being able to get the genetics that just isn't true. He is going to set up sub producers in each state and even if he didn't do that he still sells breeder queens so a smaller producer could start producing and selling Russell Queens to the hobbyist market.


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## jim lyon

beehugheshoney said:


> Here is one. He's never been late for me but he has asked if I could take them early.


Commercials almost always order in units of 100 (actually 104) which may be more than all of the complaints I have read combined. I have no doubt it is a bit of a pain to deal with lots of small orders, I know I wouldn't have the patience, but why on earth wouldn't you just fill all these orders to save the bad publicity when you are in some cases offering far larger numbers of queens early to others. Im not trying to pile on here but this account just dosent sound like the same company that has been telling us about all the hard luck they have had the past 2 seasons. Guess I am just going to quit trying to make any sense out of all this.


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## RiodeLobo

Skinner Apiaries said:


> Oh well, Russell misses out.


Mr. Prosser: Do you know how much damage this bulldozer would sustain if I just let it roll over you?
Arthur: How much?
Mr. Prosser: None at all. 

Excerpt from _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
_
PS The hobbyists are not the bulldozer.


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## beehugheshoney

My son is a foreman for him. So I have a little idea of how they work but I don't work there or represent them so please take it for what its worth. The California cages that I get from them are 104 to a box. I use three boxes early in march this year for splits. I sent a check for $5100 on September 5th last year after I finished pulling and knew what kind of money I would be getting out of that crop. That was for 300 queens $17 each is the 150+ rate. My check cleared sometime in the middle of February and my first box was delivered on March 5th. The other two boxes were delivered on the next two Wednesdays as I requested. I think that the small orders are filled after the large ones are. I know what you mean about it seeming like they could just knock out all these little ones and save the bickering but then they may have put a longtime commercial customer in a bind that he can't get out of. You got one hive that is queenless for an extra week or 2 or you got a commercial that is missing a week or two from his crop or setting his nucs back that far and putting the complaints on his back. Doc said that he has lost money on small orders because he replaces the queens that the people don't introduce right and he pays the shipping. The profit on one queen must be dismal so sending one replacement at today's shipping rates must eat up the profits for about 10 other orders. If he loses one commercial customer, that loss would eat up the profits from 100 or more little customers. I have seen them packing commercial orders in California and they are all relaxed and having a good time packing 20 or 30 boxes twice a week. Those 20 or 30 boxes would be 2000 or 3000 little orders and every one still needs a package a label and contacting the customer. If 500 of those are fumbled by the post office or the new beekeeper that gets them messes up the install, that's 500 replacements that go into the next weeks work and $10000 on shipping and he gets zip for those. He could say no replacements but with the bickering here, that would be 500 people with torches and pitchforks joining the crowd. I think he did right by cutting it off. My son let me in on their plans and I think everyone will be happy with them. Doc is going to get back to his research and focus on working with breeders and commercials. They will have a whole company in each state that will be smaller but only covering a smaller demographic. The cells that the smaller companies use for their queens will all be from the 3 cell builder places that serve the whole company. I like the idea.


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## Broke-T

Hughes, are you saying Robert is producing 20 to 30 boxes of a 100 queens twice a week?

Where are these being produced?

Johnny


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## Lauri

I would like to apologize and ask my forum posts be removed. I was caught up in the Beesourse forums mis information and heated thread and made some statements that I know now, after a few personal messages from Beesourse members, were harsh and not correct. 

Many of the folks upset about their late orders had extenuating circumstances on their end that was not disclosed. Not all, but many.

Please accept my apology to all members. Any questions please PM me.


Lauri Miller


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## beehugheshoney

Yes at one operation in California. They have more than that though. I think they manage 10000 nucs. They co op with other companies so they can be where the spring is to extend their seasons. Following the flow I guess. They don't raise queens in Mississippi. That was his dad. It would suit me to be able to drive over to pick up cells when I need them. But Doc says he won't be selling queens from here.


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## Vance G

Mr. Hughes, I understand what you are saying and I did not think that Russells would continue this terribly troubling onsies and twosies market. I cringed every time I read on his forum the whines and the rations of crap being handed out. I fully agree with his decision as I am totally unwilling to ever again undergo the drama of when I will recieve the queens for my business. I in good faith ordered and paid up front a full large price each for ten queens. I wanted them to make splits in early May. In an effort to keep my bees out of the trees I have scrambled and bought queens twice now. I no longer really need these queens paid for last October, but how would I tell someone? No one answers an email or a phone. I understand again the pressure the cascade of calls by frantic orderers of onsies and twosies put on their system. I have intentionall not added to the din. I am just an old dilletante who can afford to let capital rot for a year and go to the expense of overwintering and testing queens---that I won't be able to get again if I like and want them! I am not a serious businessman like you, buying a hundred at a time--who obviously needs better treatment. And has connections. 

Now, those folks who ordered woodware last year before Christmas and were still begging for it the end of April, what flood of small people orders caused that? 

I am not in any way shape or form wishing Dr. Russell ill in his life or business. I thank him for the knowledge he freely passes out. He almost replaces the wisdom of _______! I just believe that when you make a promise that you keep it or make it right if you can't. I just don't need a lot more of this kind of drama. So I will calmly wait til I get my 15 queens I have on order and be thankful if they don't arrive with the first snow in September. Then I won't be back.

Vance E. Gilbraith
Great Falls Montana


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## Thermwood

seal62 said:


> So now this thread is up to 5000 views . Defenders vs stiffed customers . I can take vids of perfect patterns and some i have to squish . The major issue is money . Im pretty sure everyone here works hard for their money too . When people that have payed a year in advance for queens see someone say ...I got mine it tends to set the rest of of us off . Is this company a Seinfeld show with a soup nazi ? No queens for you . The key word here is juvenile . I'm dealing with children . This company needs to put its big boy pants on and live up to its bragging or get out of this biz . There is no way i would have payed for this product if it wasnt from this site and the rave reviews and the smack Bob said about backing up his bees . Wheres Waldo ? Wheres my refund ? Wheres my bees ? Nice echo . That was my money flushed . Barry ,,,i sure hope Bob is pulled from the breeder list . The only course of action i have left is legal .


You ordered your moonbeams last fall, not a year ago, AFTER your nuc deal and AFTER you and Russell made up and became best of buddies . You knew your moonbeams would not be sent till spring, and according to their website moonbeams begin shipping mid to late May, weather and all other circumstances permitting.

"MoonBeams - Begin Shipping mid-late May (2012)... Weather permitting... (Note: Limited supply)"

You purchased several nucs from Russell last year and drove down to pick them up, you didn't even inspect them before accepting them, got home and found some not to be in good shape. Well it was your obligation to make sure they were what you ordered, but instead you threw a tantrum and blasted Russell to anyone and everyone........

....then you sent him MORE money for MORE bees??????

Doesn't add up......


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## WPG

jim lyon said:


> I would like to hear from even one of said commercials who have relied on Russell queens to grow their business. All the ones I know personally are relying on $3 queen cells and they better not be a day late. Speaking from personal experience, any queen that is more than about a week late is virtually worthless in an operation where timing and seasonal moves dictate virtually everything that you do.




Jim, why quote me then ignore what I said?

I didn't say _rely_, I said _help_.

I didn't say other beeks grew to commercial level relying on Russel queens.
I said *I* hoped to use Russell _genetics_ to get to commercial level.

I certainly don't plan on using $3 dollar queens from anyone when the going rate is 4 to 6 times that for a quality queen. I've dealt with too many slum landlords over the years.

I might have my sights set on a new Mercedes but you want me to drive a Yugo. No thanks.
I'll keep on driving my old Ford and even older _used_ Mercedes.

Oh and Mike(another NDer) if you read what I said again, I still plan on getting to commercial level with or without Russel genetics.

I can still get to where I want to go by walking. 
The only jeapardy I see is getting run over by that guy in the Yugo when his steering breaks. Or he sets a couple truckloads of mite infested hives by my yards.

I think I'm all done here. This is getting to be too much of a downer with no end in sight.

May it only rain after midnight and quit before daylight for you.


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## jim lyon

WPG: I stand corrected "helped" not "relied" fair enough. Now please clarify that I was clearly referring to $3 queen cells and not $3 mated queens. We have not only significantly grown our business with them we have supplied many of the best commercial operations with the same stock as well. I didn't realize all of our hard work has resulted in a bunch of Yugo's. If the premise of your argument is that one must spend lots of money to end up with good bees then I most respectfully disagree. Not only are there lots and lots of good breeders out there but I would maintain that good breeding conditions and good beekeeping practices trump any claimed genetic advantages every time anyway.


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## camero7

jim lyon said:


> If the premise of your argument is that one must spend lots of money to end up with good bees then I most respectfully disagree. Not only are there lots and lots of good breeders out there but I would maintain that good breeding conditions and good beekeeping practices trump any claimed genetic advantages every time anyway.


Could not agree more. If all it took was genetics there would be millions of commercial beekeepers.


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## robherc

jim lyon said:


> ...good breeding conditions and good beekeeping practices trump any claimed genetic advantages every time anyway.


no, yes, and sorta.....

1) You HAVE to have good genetics to be successful, bad genetics = bad bees, regardless of anything else (and I'm just being general with that argument, not in ANY way implying that there is only one supplier/strain of good genetics...I'm sure there are hundreds, if not thousands)

2) Good breeding/beekeeping practices DO always trump inferior practices, regardless of genetics...if you ruin your bees, they're ruined...no matter what DNA they had.

3) Yes, anything concrete beats any "claimed" whatever....BUT a "real" genetic advantage, coupled with good practices, will also trump any good practices with less beneficial genetics. Otherwise, we'd have no AHB on this continent, because our breeders would already have magically beaten all the genetic advantages of the AHB with their good breeding practices, so our bees would be equal or superior in every way & there'd have been no reason for the research in Brazil, plus our bees would have out-competed the feral AHBs and kept them from "naturalizing."

In summary, it takes good available genetics, good breeding, AND good beekeeping...something we all already knew I think, so let's all be sure to apply the "common sense check," in addition to the built in "spell check" to our posts before hitting "Post Quick Reply" in a flustered frenzy. :lookout:


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## Skinner Apiaries

mudlake said:


> Last word from me. Got my queens after many phone calls, many e-mails days missed from work, add that to the cost of the queens. This was for 5 sunkist queens. I ordered northern queens as instructed. 4 out of 5 did not make it through the winter we had the easyiest winter in years many years. The hive that made it, is not active. Middle of the day flying the only hive with no honey stored, so far. Might be good warm weather bees, not northern bees. It seems this company has weather problems every year. Save yourself from getting upset order from a company that has less weather problems. If you can get you bees local get them. My e-mail [email protected]. Thank You for your time Tony


Tony, you do know cordovans turn honey and syrup into brood faster than anything else right? Ours are Eating through honey and producing a crapload of brood. Out F2's that is. Point in hand, you're complaining because you bought Italians, and expected Russians. They got warm weather and raised giant nests and starved. Right? Feed, and stop blaming the company or the people for your lack of knowing what you're buying. I've raised several hundred off of this line, and I LOVE them, as do my customers.


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## Skinner Apiaries

Disagree sorta, good genetics make for good bees. Not saying a moron can buy bees and they'll make, but since I got into bigger nested crossings with hygenics, I havent seen a mite death in two years. Point in hand, Good genetics is at least 50% of the solution.


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## jim lyon

Robherc: you don't need to use the "duck" icon with me. I thought your post was pretty much on the mark


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## Barry

***************** Notice ***************

To all posting on the subject of Russell, refrain from starting new threads. There are already plenty of threads going on this topic, we don't need anymore! Also, DO NOT cross-post the same message to all the different threads like I just did!!

***************** End Notice ***************


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## adamf

robherc said:


> 2) Good breeding/beekeeping practices DO always trump inferior practices, regardless of genetics...if you ruin your bees, they're ruined...no matter what DNA they had.


*DNA is identical in all bees. *

DNA is DNA. An Insect, Mammal or Plant has the same DNA.

How the DNA is arranged and what is expressed down the developmental chain from what the DNA codes for, is what makes the variation.

Back to your regularly scheduled program... 

Adam
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## robherc

Ummmm...[edit] yes, it's all Deoxyribonucleic Acid, all queen/worker bees have 32 chromosomes, and males have 16....BUT your post is still way off its mark. Simply put, if the codes don't match, it's different DNA...otherwise you'd be saying that all 32-page books are the same book, regardless of the words written in them!


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## Skinner Apiaries

lol either there was a misread there, or someone clearly missed sarcasm, followed by fact. winning.


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## kenr

Looks like they have took down their websight!


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## kincade

kenr said:


> Looks like they have took down their websight!


Works for me... Maybe a setting on your end?


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## adamf

robherc said:


> Ummmm...[edit] yes, it's all Deoxyribonucleic Acid, all queen/worker bees have 32 chromosomes, and males have 16....BUT your post is still way off its mark. Simply put, if the codes don't match, it's different DNA...otherwise you'd be saying that all 32-page books are the same book, regardless of the words written in them!


No, I'm saying that the "DNA" *is* Deoxyribonucleic Acid. In any genotype and subsequent phenotype, the organism's DNA is the same substance. 

The arangement of the base pairs is what makes the differences, not the DNA itself. DNA is DNA.

How can you have "different DNA"?

What's heavier, a pound of feathers or a pound of lead?


Adam
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## beeker

I'd like to give an update on my experience with Russell Apiaries. Got notice two queen (SK for my dad and moonbeam for me) would ship last week. Shipped on Tuesday and arrived on Saturday. I was pretty concerned about the transit time. Gave both queens drops of water on the screens which the attendants eagerly took. Did this until they didn't take any more. Made a split from my hive with frames of pollen and honey. Didn't have any brood frames because I'm in the process of switching from a deep to mediums. Didn't wait any to put the queen cage in the split, next time I will. Did the same thing on same day at my dad's place. Next day the bees still hadn't accepted the moonbeam. Waited another day and they appeared to be feeding through the screen. Hadn't touched the candy plug so I released her and all is well. Went to my dad's place and found his split nearly empty with a dead queen and attendants in the cage. Not sure what happened. I suspect that she just didn't make it after the long shipping time and the bees went back to the old hive after she died. Or maybe they left and then she died? Don't know. Both splits were made the exact same way, one made and one didn't. Anyway my dad emailed them and told them what happened. He already had one SKC coming that wasn't yet ready to ship on this order. He asked if they had any queen at all that he could buy and add to the SKC already ordered. Victoria said she would see about replacing the dead queen at no charge. This impressed me because we didn't blame them or expect anything. I can't even say they did the right thing because that would be suggesting doing nothing was the wrong thing and they owed us nothing. It's just very generous and much appreciated. So a big thank you to them for that. I can't speak to the quality of these new queens but I do know his first hive which I gave him last year was made with a Russell VSH queen and that hive is going gangbusters this year so I expect the others to do just as well. The communication issues are a legitimate customer service issue. I think Russell recognizes that and is changing course to remedy the situation in his own way. I hope it all works out for the best for both them and his customers.


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## robherc

_How can you have "different DNA"?_

Even in the scientific community, the abbreviation "DNA" is used interchangeably to mean the molecule(s), the generic chemical compounds(s), or the coding contained therein...so arguing that "all DNA is the same" is being facetious and ridiculous purely for the sake of argument.

Debate is healthy and good, when there's something to be learned from it. However, making facetious arguments simply to degrade a conversation helps nobody, and confuses any readers who aren't educated on the subject..I think we should all find more constructive applications for our intelligence, instead of trying so desperately to prove to others that we have it (and no, I'm not calling anyone unintelligent...just suggesting that it should be put to more beneficial use).


_...DNA is DNA_

OK, I stand corrected, now we're calling all books the same, regardless of page count, OR content...the result is the same; "The Grapes of Wrath" and "The Cat in The Hat" are both books, but they are most definitely DIFFERENT books...they may both be made of ink & paper, but that does not in any way make them the same thing. A life form's DNA is the "book" containing all the information needed to manufacture that organism. The DNA is divided into chromosomes (chapters/pages), and each chromosome contains the code for many genes (words/sentences), each made up of several, ordered base pairs (letters/characters).

That's why to say that "DNA is DNA" is exactly equivalent to saying "a book is a book". In either instance, while the statement may be true in the nit-picky sense of "yes, they're made up of the same stuff"...that's the total end of the truth to the statement, as both DNA and books are defined by not the physical medium they're made of, but the stored information within that medium.


Any further sarcastic & intentionally inaccurate/misleading remarks on this line of questioning should be made by PM so as not to cause confusion for innocent bystanders who find this thread in a Google search.


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## mudlake

Never built up.(only hives I lost) Sorry they just sit when it is below 65. Tony


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## beeker

Well my dad got two queens in the post yesterday. The SKC he had ordered and they included a moonbeam for free to replace the SK that had died in the cage before being released. Got them in the splits yesterday. Checked today and the moonbeam was accepted. The SKC was dead in the cage. That's two sunkist queens that died in the cage and two moonbeams that made it fine under the same circumstances.


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## adamf

robherc said:


> Even in the scientific community, the abbreviation "DNA" is used interchangeably to mean the molecule(s), the generic chemical compounds(s), or the coding contained therein...so arguing that "all DNA is the same" is being facetious and ridiculous purely for the sake of argument.



I'm not being _facetious_ at all. This forum and the readers are not the scientific community, hence my effort to clarify your use of the term "DNA".




robherc said:


> _...DNA is DNA_
> 
> OK, I stand corrected, now we're calling all books the same, regardless of page count, OR content...the result is the same; "The Grapes of Wrath" and "The Cat in The Hat" are both books, but they are most definitely DIFFERENT books...they may both be made of ink & paper, but that does not in any way make them the same thing. A life form's DNA is the "book" containing all the information needed to manufacture that organism. The DNA is divided into chromosomes (chapters/pages), and each chromosome contains the code for many genes (words/sentences), each made up of several, ordered base pairs (letters/characters).
> 
> That's why to say that "DNA is DNA" is exactly equivalent to saying "a book is a book". In either instance, while the statement may be true in the nit-picky sense of "yes, they're made up of the same stuff"...that's the total end of the truth to the statement, as both DNA and books are defined by not the physical medium they're made of, but the stored information within that medium.



There are certainly different *Genomes* comprised of DNA. When dealing with breeding, in the context of this thread, one producer's queens have the same DNA as another's. The queen's genomes are different.. The queen's hereditary expression is different. For sure!

I "nit-picked" as someone correcting grammer for clarity, would. No offense. No rancor-- not trying to be facetious.
My intent was to be accurate about the description of the breeding. That accuracy is important.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## beeker

No clarification was needed.


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