# Check out this nuc



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

My dad brought me a nuc box, he dropped off the box in the morning and came back that night and got it. I think it's just a couple frames of brood, and some empty comb the guy threw in there, and shook some bees in it. $165
They have VSH in the line he said, they were trying to push out larvea through the screen of the cardboard nuc box. Theres no food stores whatsoever in it, I gave em 1:1 syrup. I could put a pollen patty on? nectar flow is in full swing though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmmEDo56-Hg


----------



## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

That did look like a newly made nuc, but it should survive IF the queen is in there. I think I would've dumped the bees left in the box into the new nuc box.....and I would've left the frames in the same order as found. .....both survivable errors in my mind. :lookout:

(a new queen may have had her wings clipped and be on foot & unable to fly) :s


----------



## dkofoed (Feb 25, 2014)

Thought i saw the queen on the 4th frame, but hard to tell, could be a drone. Any eggs?


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

dkofoed said:


> Thought i saw the queen on the 4th frame, but hard to tell, could be a drone. Any eggs?


I thought so too, I couldn't see any, I think he just threw it together last night, all the bees went inside. The whole box weighed 20 lbs, the last nucs I bought were like 100lbs each.


----------



## Schultz (Mar 9, 2015)

ifixoldhouses said:


> I thought so too, I couldn't see any, I think he just threw it together last night, all the bees went inside. The whole box weighed 20 lbs, the last nucs I bought were like 100lbs each.


 It is impossible for a 5 frame nuc to weigh 100 lbs. I've only bought 2 nucs, but they were stronger than what you showed, and I would guess weighed not more than 10lbs each.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

Schultz said:


> It is impossible for a 5 frame nuc to weigh 100 lbs. I've only bought 2 nucs, but they were stronger than what you showed, and I would guess weighed not more than 10lbs each.


it had a full deep frame of honey that was super heavy in it, I don't know maybe 50 lbs, the whole thing was pretty heavy compared to this one.


----------



## Schultz (Mar 9, 2015)

Let's think about it. For 5 frames to weigh 50lbs, they would have to weigh 10lbs each. I'm quite sure I have never seen a 10lb frame of honey, but, 5 of them would never fit in a cardboard nuc box.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I asked the guy who helps make em up, he thinks 30-35 lbs average.


----------



## Schultz (Mar 9, 2015)

That's fantastic!


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

Schultz said:


> That's fantastic!


ya for $150 too
check out the video of them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5c2gRZkNnU&t=313s


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Unless it is very warm, I would place the frames back in the order and orientation they were in. 1 and 2 were flipped 3 was end for ended and 4 and 5 were flipped. Wall to wall bees and warm 70's even at night not an issue. Here in Mich it was 35 last night. Also I would shake and knock off the bees from the lid and box in case the queen was in there, shake them in prior to putting the second box on. If you get 90% you can look for the queen in the remainder. looks like they are in, good luck with their growth for the summer. When the NUC is small and it is cool they typically do not put brood against the wall. Once they get going they run out of cells so its a timing thing. BTW why do you screen the hole in the inner cover?

GG


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I'll remember that on the next one, it's hot here though 88 degrees , I've had the swimming pool set up for 2-3 weeks . It might dip to 50 at night. I don't like them all under the lid when you take it off, I run screened inner covers on all the other ones. I don't think that nuc was made up more than 12 hours with all the empty comb.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

This nuc is still the same as when I got it, empty comb in it, no frames being drawn, no eggs, the queen is in there, looks like they are superseceding her, I added a frame of honey a week ago or two. I guess it's just an old queen he gave me, won't even lay drone eggs.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I saw nothing that would make me expect to see a laying queen in the original. A frugal queen will not lay without stores. Not saying the queen is not a dud, but adding a frame of honey a week ago says they have not built up a ring of open nectar or pollen on their own.

Have you been feeding the snot out of them?


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I took out the sugar syrup when I added the honey frame.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Was there open liquid and some pollen in most of the frames ? Some capping of syrup.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

there was one frame with some open nectar, but still totally empty comb frames.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Surely a nuc supplier that you won’t be revisiting. Nothing I saw that was even remotely worth $50…much less $165.

I guess that I’m the last beekeeper on the planet who moves the nuc into the customer’s equipment here. When all is said and done they will have seen the bees, brood, honey, pollen and queen before they pay.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I haven't even bothered to call the guy or anything, he's over an hour away, doubt he'd help me anyhow, probably blocked my number. It's the sorriest Nuc I've ever seen, except on YouTube, I saw a guy open up one that had 2-3 empty plastic foundation frames in it lol. The one he sold my dad is doing ok though.


----------



## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

Give the seller a chance to fix the issue. After that, if not satisfied, let other locals know what happened. One of the main nuc guys in our area won't let you pick them up until all five frames are full and the bees are overflowing. He is BYOB and loads them for you so you can inspect everything.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

ifixoldhouses said:


> there was one frame with some open nectar, but still totally empty comb frames.


Subjectively, open brood seems to kick a queen into gear. I would not invest more than an ouside frame with a little brood on that nuc though.

Scratch the honey if you have not, and I would feed more.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Wow, just saw the original video. WTF? At a bare minimum, you should have gotten at least ONE frame that was solid capped brood and two other that were capped and open brood. Another frame should have been honey and pollen and the last could have been empty comb, or in my case, a frame the bees were in the process of drawing out. Like Dan, I am a BYOB nuc seller and the customer sees what is going in his equipment. I also make sure they see the queen, which is usually on the frame with the eggs and open brood. That nuc looked like one of my FAILED walk away splits! If you are sure you have a queen, throw a piece of pollen patty on the top bars and turn the inner cover over to provide the space. There were a fair number of bees in the box, but that did not at all look like an organized and thriving colony, which is what a nuc should be.

It also would not hurt to put in a frame of eggs and open brood from another colony if you can spare them, even if you do have a queen.


----------



## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

They don't need eggs they need sealed brood with emerging bees and food stores. Just looks like a really weak nuc. Little stores, scattered brood, low population and questionable queen perhaps. Why did you add another box? I would have just added an empty box and placed a jar of feed right on top.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

It had brood on the frame that I put in there, it as hatched out, I tried the pollen patty, barely touched it, threw it away after 4-5 days, they drank all the sugar syrup twice, added another box in hopes of getting frames drawn out.
I'm getting ready to make 3 splits, I have six 8 frame deeps, packed with sealed brood, ordered 3 OHB Saskatraz Queens, I can probably beef up the nuc a lil while I'm at it.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Riskybizz, the open brood and eggs is to help keep the hive from going laying worker as much as to boost the numbers, provide fresh nurse bees, and give them an opportunity to requeen if necessary. The original post was May 8th, so we are fast approaching the point where the hive could go LW and then be a lost cause. I agree that the top box needs to go. Too much space, not enough bees.


----------



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Most nucs, from what I gather, are random frames of brood and comb taken from various colonies with an introduced queen from a mating nuc. Aren't most nucs, especially, "Bring Your Own Box," short on foragers?
Alex


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

AHudd said:


> Most nucs, from what I gather, are random frames of brood and comb taken from various colonies with an introduced queen from a mating nuc. Aren't most nucs, especially, "Bring Your Own Box," short on foragers?
> Alex


My dad dropped the box off in the morning, the guy packed it up, and he picked it up in the evening, it probably wasn't the same nuc he was shown earlier, and he didn't really know what he was looking at.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

AHudd said:


> Most nucs, from what I gather, are random frames of brood and comb taken from various colonies with an introduced queen from a mating nuc. Aren't most nucs, especially, "Bring Your Own Box," short on foragers?
> Alex


That is not how I make my nucs. They are either an overwintered nuc or frames and a queen selected from a parent hive which is then left to requeen itself. I am not a commercial nuc producer, nor do I wish to be. My goal is 40 per year at this point, so I can afford to be more "hands on".

And yes, a fair number of foragers are lost to the nuc, but not all. In a week's time it makes no difference. What is important is that within two weeks, the bee population has doubled from all the emerging brood. In ifixoldhouse's case, I dont think that has happened.


----------



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I didn't mean to imply that is a bad thing, quite the opposite, but I don't think they are a thriving colony at that point because of the imbalance which gets a little worse for about a week while waiting for the brood to emerge, especially in a cool climate.
I wasn't denigrating the method only that I don't agree with your characterization of what a nuc should be. This> "not at all look like an organized and thriving colony, which is what a nuc should be". Maybe I'm wrong.

Ifixoldhouses;I watched the video just now and I got the impression that those frames came from a hive suffering from PMS. I would treat for mites unless you are TF of course.

Alex


----------



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

And I also am talking about what a customer should expect from a commercial nuc supplier.

Alex


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I did an OAV treatment on them once.
here's that video I refered too earlier with a nuc that has 3 empty foundation frames in it, comes from a site sponsor here it seems, I believe my sorry nuc is better than that. No where in the same ballpark as my first two nucs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mnI0ECQEZ4


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Couldn't finish watching that.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I guess when I open up a can of worms, I go ahead and dump them out too. I'll break it down so you see where I am coming from. Three frames of brood with adhearing bees, about 6k bees. One frame of honey/pollen with adhering foragers, around another 1500 bees. Typical ratio in a thriving hive is 25% foragers 75% house bees during build up. So the numbers are not that far off. As the brood emerges, around 10,000 bees or more, a greater number of the house bees are elevated to forager, just like when the flow is on, and the ratios quickly balance again, an organized hive. But that is what I do, not what I believe many commercial nuc producers do. If it was, I doubt anyone would get a nuc until mid-June. To be fair to all, I have only purchased ONE nuc. It was explained to me by the seller, then our club president, what should comprise a nuc. I have adhered to that definition and I believe that what I produce more closely matches Ifoh's expectations too. But seriously, a nuc that weighs 100#s? As Kamon just demonstrated, a 10 frame deep full of honey only weighs in at 75#s.
I am not even sure what to call the "nucs" in the last video. 4 framers with only partially drawn foundation, little patches of brood, and hardly any bees? Nucs in the making at best. If I was selling those, I could double my output overnight.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

JWPalmer said:


> I guess when I open up a can of worms, I go ahead and dump them out too. I'll break it down so you see where I am coming from. Three frames of brood with adhearing bees, about 6k bees. One frame of honey/pollen with adhering foragers, around another 1500 bees. Typical ratio in a thriving hive is 25% foragers 75% house bees during build up. So the numbers are not that far off. As the brood emerges, around 10,000 bees or more, a greater number of the house bees are elevated to forager, just like when the flow is on, and the ratios quickly balance again, an organized hive. But that is what I do, not what I believe many commercial nuc producers do. If it was, I doubt anyone would get a nuc until mid-June. To be fair to all, I have only purchased ONE nuc. It was explained to me by the seller, then our club president, what should comprise nuc. I have adhered to that definition and I believe that what I produce more closely matches Ifoh's expectations too. But seriously, a nuc that weighs 100#s? As Kamon just demonstrated, a 10 frame deep full of honey only weighs in at 75#s.
> I am even sure what to call the "nucs" in the last video. 4 framers with only partially drawn foundation, little patches of brood, and hardly any bees? Nucs in the making at best. If I was selling those, I could double my output overnight.


Those were $200 nucs too  We finally figured my two nucs weighed 35 lbs. each, still very heavy., skip to the end of that video, to see the nucs.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

JWPalmer said:


> But that is what I do, not what I believe many commercial nuc producers do.


I think it is like so many other things. Those producers who have good reputations consistently supply quality nucs. There’s a fellow up the road who does several thousand every spring. His are always exceptional. 

It pays to ask for recommendations


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I am enjoying this discussion. I hope everyone else is too. After much contemplation and a few beers, I am modifying my suggestion. Remove the empty box of frames and the frame feeder. Replace the two drawn but otherwise empty frames with one frame of capped brood and one marked frame of eggs and open brood. Place the brood frames in the center of the box. Use an inverted mason jar feeder set directly on the bars of the frames with a small (2"×2") piece of pollen sub patty next to it. Cover with the other box and lid. Come back in five days and look at the marked frame. If no queen cells started, check the other frames for eggs. If no eggs, remove another frame and try once more by giving a frame of eggs. If that does not work and there is still no laying queen or queen cells, shake them out in front of the nucs you had already made and let them beg their way into a hive.

With a nod to riskybizz' contribution to the discussion.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

sounds good, I'm going to take the queen cell in there now and put it in a mating nuc, the old man that sold them told my dad, that they supposedly survived 3 years by themselves while someone was out of town, and this queen was from that line.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Don't be suprised if that cell turns out to be a dud. I do not put much faith in qc's that are not surrounded by other healthy brood. But see what happens. Ya never know.


----------



## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

The portion of the videos that I watched makes me feel sorry for all the bees. All I can think of is that there is more money than sense here. :lookout:


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

AHudd said:


> I got the impression that those frames came from a hive suffering from PMS.
> Alex


I was thinking severely robbed for a long time. That tattered old frame looked like the wax had been stripped off leaving only the cocoons. When they have been robbed for a long time they will let anybody walk in. Syrup in the top, syrup out the door does not build up stores.

I failed to mention; close all but a tiny opening.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I did all that, and combined them with the nuc I had a virgin queen in( she never came back) I'll check em again in a week.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Keep us updated. I hope this works out for you.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I think the queen needs replacing, she only lays small batches here and there, there are combs totally empty, combs full of pollen, and honey in there. I have 3 more OHB Saskatraz queens coming for two more splits, and a requeen.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Requeening sounds like a good plan. Did the queen cell ever emerge? I had thought it was a dud but was still curious.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

JWPalmer said:


> Requeening sounds like a good plan. Did the queen cell ever emerge? I had thought it was a dud but was still curious.


no, think it was empty.
is it too late to let them raise a queen cell from one of the sasktraz queens? I could just kill the queen and stick a frame in there from saskatraz hive, Then I could save the mail order queen for another split and have 10 total hives


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Depends on how soon you can get a frame of eggs without compromising the hives the queens are being placed into. I just made my cell builder yesterday and will be grafting next weekend and then again the weekend after that. Should put me on about the same timeline as you. Several of my hives are still packed with drones, so mating should not be an issue. Requeening with a mated queen can be done until about the end of August but nuc creation should be finished up by end of July to give the bees plenty of time to prep for winter.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I killed the queen, she had a bout 10 larvae and 10 capped brood in there, pathetic, I added a frame of eggs, larvae from the Saskatraz queen I just bought, should be some sort of hybrid when it hatches.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

These are pics of nucs Randy Oliver sold this year here in California. They were jammed full of bees, sealed brood and stores for $190 after the club markup. Yours was worth $12 for the box and maybe $15 for the frames and $.10 for the bees and brood. Value: $27.10


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

it was my box  total ripoff, the combs are still empty after all this time.


----------



## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

ifixoldhouses said:


> the old man that sold them told my dad, that they supposedly survived 3 years by themselves while someone was out of town, and this queen was from that line.


This should have been your dads first red flag, but I do want to go out of town for three years


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

Still nursing this nuc, I added another frame of sealed brood, and took this video of the 7 queen cells from the Saskatraz queens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MFO-lvJvCU&feature=youtu.be
I'm going to put some in my mating nuc in the next day or two.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

IFOH, you really should keep the the frame straight up and down like it is in the hive. Once a queen cell is capped they are very delicate and turning them sideways or upside down can permanently damage the developing pupae. If still uncapped, it does not matter. Other than that, I'll be right on down to pick up all those extra cells you have.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

Heh, I'm going to put them in a double 2 frame nuc I made up :lookout:


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

That looks real nice.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

The only thing that worries me is the top, I'll have to slide it one way or the other to keep one side closed off, looks like its going to work when the jars are empty anyway.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

On a purchased queen castle, the center dividers are cut 3/4" taller than the box and then there are boards that fit against the divider to the edge of the box or the next divider. You remove one board at a time to work the chambers. I cut holes in mine for the feeding jars and place an empty deep over the whole thing.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

Thanks, I put two 3/8 plywood pieces with the holes and screen on mine.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

Update: every original bee from this nuc is probably gone by now, it's full of frames from other hives, I installed a saskatraz queen a few days ago. Also I tried the 2 frame nuc out, It just got robbed to pieces.I will try it next spring though.


----------



## BumblingBeek (May 28, 2019)

Schultz said:


> It is impossible for a 5 frame nuc to weigh 100 lbs. I've only bought 2 nucs, but they were stronger than what you showed, and I would guess weighed not more than 10lbs each.


I keep reading and hearing that a fully drawn deep frame of honey could weigh 10-12 lbs...Are these not normally included in a nuc? Is that why you're saying the entire 5 frames would only average about 2 lbs each?


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Brood weighs less than honey, even if you got 4 honey and 1 brood (you would not be happy) you are topping out around 50. I want to see more bees than honey in a nuc.


----------



## BumblingBeek (May 28, 2019)

Saltybee said:


> Brood weighs less than honey, even if you got 4 honey and 1 brood (you would not be happy) you are topping out around 50. I want to see more bees than honey in a nuc.


That makes sense. Thank you for explaining it!


----------



## BumblingBeek (May 28, 2019)

ifixoldhouses said:


> Update: every original bee from this nuc is probably gone by now, it's full of frames from other hives, I installed a saskatraz queen a few days ago. Also I tried the 2 frame nuc out, It just got robbed to pieces.I will try it next spring though.


Were you feeding in-hive in your 2 frames? If you were, did you also feed all your other hives at the same time?


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

BumblingBeek said:


> Were you feeding in-hive in your 2 frames? If you were, did you also feed all your other hives at the same time?


It had a jar top feeder on both sides, all the other hives had feed inside as well. It got robbed, the wax shredded to pieces, the queen cells shredded too, no comb drawn, it was basically a community feeding station.


----------



## BumblingBeek (May 28, 2019)

ifixoldhouses said:


> It had a jar top feeder on both sides, all the other hives had feed inside as well. It got robbed, the wax shredded to pieces, the queen cells shredded too, no comb drawn, it was basically a community feeding station.


That sucks! I'm sorry to hear that...


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

That was one of the problems with my two frame nucs. Bees could not defend them and they would get robbed to pieces. Going to plug the openings and install disc entrances with a much, much smaller opening. You don't hear David at Barnyard Bees mention it often, but the reason he is able to use just a screen entrance reducer is that ALL the hives in that yard are small nucs.

I have a lot of activity at one of my splits. It has a robbing screen but bees are coming and going 4:1 compared to the other nucs next to it. Opened it up and saw a lot of bees moving around, but the capped honey was unscathed and the three qc's were still intact. Not sure what I am seeing. It is one of the nucs I started over the July 4th weekend so should not be a lot of foraging activity yet.


----------



## 123989 (Jul 30, 2018)

I know this was started a long time ago, but you didn't get
a nuc. You got what probably was a 2 pound package in a
nuc box.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

fadder said:


> I know this was started a long time ago, but you didn't get
> a nuc. You got what probably was a 2 pound package in a
> nuc box.


yeah, I checked today and there's finally a queen laying eggs in it, although all the original bees are gone. The guy asked my dad how I liked the nuc lol, he told him the queen was sorry, no offer to help or anything.


----------



## hagane (Aug 15, 2015)

So this shouldn't happen right? 

I'm kind of new, and I guess, i want to ask if other bee yards are selling them this way also, or more solid typically?

To me part of this seems like the twisting of the interpretation of the American dream. Now days people think the American Dream means worshipping money and having a castle, and the days of the Founding Fathers it meant you would get the money, and land as a reward for being good, and living free, with principles. 

A lot of people take shortcuts with money. In other fields I see people halfa...effort stuff too much.


----------



## hagane (Aug 15, 2015)

I forgot to mention...I'm a newb but one of the Michael Palmer videos I was watching talking about NUC survival, he was saying something about there needing to for sure make sure a nuc or package has 'nurse' bees in there.

(But I don't remember everything he said about it, and I'm not sure how many nurse bees people think you need to have.)


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

hagane said:


> So this shouldn't happen right?
> 
> I'm kind of new, and I guess, i want to ask if other bee yards are selling them this way also, or more solid typically?
> 
> ...


best to get one from a state inspected apiary, everyone was sold out around here, and I wanted another one, I bought it without seeing it, Craigslist is a good place to get ripped off. get to know what a good nuc looks like, there are a couple videos and pix in this thread of good ones.


----------

