# Top Entrances and Robbing?



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

As long as the hive is strong enough to protect itself, top entrances pose no problem as far as robbing from what I have experienced. Something I did notice however, nothing to do with robbing, but, when using nothing but a top entrance the bees stored quite a bit of pollen in the honey supers along with the honey. Never heard of anyone else having that issue, but it happened to me with every hive I tried a top entrance on. Won't be using solely a top entrance again, maybe in addition to a small bottom entrance though.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Top entrance is definitely not a problem. Too much entrance on the other hand is a definite problem. Some colonies though seem to be able to defend what is theres with the lid blown off. Most get robbed out.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I've noticed that my bees won't store honey anywhere near an entrance or an auger hole or a large crack between boxes. What does having an upper entrance at the top super mean as far as the bees filling that super?


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> I've noticed that my bees won't store honey anywhere near an entrance or an auger hole or a large crack between boxes. What does having an upper entrance at the top super mean as far as the bees filling that super?


Michael,
I am not sure to be honest with you. Given your observation, I would say honey is stored towards the back and in lower boxes. Will the bees put brood closer to the top entrance?I will let you know here in about 7 months I guess. Have you noticed lower production in yours? It's an idea that I've played with, I have also read it in MB's book. I like the idea of not having to mow as much grass. :scratch:


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Besides not having to keep the weeds or grass cut, an upper entrance helps with skunk problems.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I've been using primarily, all upper entrances, with the main entrance immediately above the brood nest. In this situation, the bees have been placing virtually all pollen in the brood nest. Even when I sometimes place a queen excluder between the brood nest and the main entrance opening (forcing all foragers to traverse the excluder, to enter or exit the brood nest), very little pollen finds its way into the honey supers. 

My entrance rims have a robbing screen, built-in. It seems to help reduce robbing in colonies where one is used.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Joe C., I put my upper entrance at the very top above any honey supers all the time, maybe that's why I saw so much pollen in the supers. Doing it your way would probably work much better. Do you use a single deep or double deep for brood? How thick is your entrance rim that you insert between the boxes?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

jmgi,

I think the answer to your question can be found here.

I only use 8-frame, medium depth supers, throughout, configured as in the above link.

I have entrance rims, in various thickness, from 1/4" to 1/2", the deeper ones make it possible for the bees to build more burr/brace comb in the space created by the rim. For me, the benefits far outweigh the issue of some burr/brace comb.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Joe C., very interesting setup you run for entrances, actually it was that same Jerry Hayes POV that pushed me to try upper entrances on some hives this last year. Thanks.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Thanks for the input folks! JC, thanks for posting the diagram. It cleared things up for me as well.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Disadvantages:
1. Bees will not draw foundation anywhere near an opening.
2. Bees will not store honey anywhere near an opening
3. Bees will store pollen throughout the honey supers

Advantages:
1. Upper entrance protects from some predators
2. Upper entrance is less likely to be covered by snow
3. Upper entrance exhausts water vapor in winter

I gave up on permanent upper entrances 35 years ago when I determined that skunks never bother my bees and we never get enough snow to worry about. I do however maintain a small upper entrance that allows moisture to escape in winter.

I also tried using Cloake boards as entrances similar to the graphic J. Clemens posted. These work pretty well though they still suppress wax building a bit. If the Cloake board is used for a few months in spring then removed, it is an excellent tool for producing queens.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Fusion Power, you are the first person I believe that confirms what I have noticed when using a top entrance, that is pollen will get stored in the honey supers. I tried some top entrances this year and when I went to pull honey I found several combs in each super that had pollen in them, and I don't mean just a few cells, but lots of it, if fact, I had some combs that I would say were 60% FULL of pollen along with some honey. Now, I will say that I did have queen excluders on the hives for part of the time, so maybe that had something to do with it. I plan to continue to use excluders, but I won't be using top entrances for awhile.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Going back to using bottom entrances only this year. Will deal with skunks with wire fence.

Had a bottom entrance, mid height and top entrance. Bees were reluctant to store honey in upper supers and as stated above, likley due to not wanting to store near entrances and draft in upper supers.

Natural order of hive from bottom up is pollen, brood and honey overhead. Also my understanding is that bees prefer to drop off pollen "nearer" to entrance. ??With a bottom entrance, bees and queen will keep brood more towards bottom??????? 

Also going to block center of bottom entrance and use two 2 1/2, side, entrances to keep draft away from center. Bees more likely to keep brood in lower brood super.

Also a lot less bee confusion during inspection when bees are used to using a bottom entrance.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

mgolden, completely agree with you on top entrances. I did like them though for only one reason, skunks. I will go back to using wire mesh and aspirin eggs if I need to.


As you said, bulk of pollen gets stored in the lowest brood box when using bottom entrances, queens just don't like to lay much down there, probably due to proximity to entrance gap. Don't know if reducing the bottom entrance down significantly will help with queen laying down there more, never experimented with that. Maybe those slatted racks help with that, some say it does.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

jmgi, something to try is blocking the center of the bottom entrance and leave a 2 1/2 opening at each of the sides. From my experience, there was brood in 2/3 of center frames in bottom deep brood when I blocked the center. 

Think a wide open center entrance causes a "draft" up the center and brood nest is consequently higher in the hive.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

If lack of brood in the bottom box is a common occurence when using wide open bottom boards, then it makes total sense to restrict that entrance down significantly to promote better queen laying down there, I mean I know that the bees know what they're doing, but if you only have a two box brood chamber and the bulk of the brood is in the second box and the first box is not being used for much besides pollen storage (which I have frequently noticed), then seems to me a waste of space. I know full well that a good queen can lay much more than one deep of brood.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Maybe those slatted racks help with that, some say it does.


Slatted racks aka Killion bottom boards make a huge difference here in the deep south. They increase ventilation, eliminate problems with mold on combs, increase egg laying near the entrance, and improve drawing foundation. I just built 10 brand new to replace existing that are pretty much rotted out after 20 years use.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Fusion_power said:


> Disadvantages:
> 1. Bees will not draw foundation anywhere near an opening.
> 2. Bees will not store honey anywhere near an opening
> 3. Bees will store pollen throughout the honey supers
> ...


Location is quite important, and may be the deciding factor, here. Though both you, and Michael Palmer, mention seeing issue #2. I've never seen any of those, "disadvantages", expressed in even one hive. Though I've only been running upper entrances for a little more than a decade, I've only been doing it at my present location.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My hives are all top entrance only. The top box is usually full unless I just added it. I went to top entrances when the skunks became a problem.


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## Karolus (Jan 17, 2013)

I've just started playing with top entrances this year. I ran a couple of hives with wide open top and bottom entrances. Here in Texas with the blistering summers I wanted to see if it would have a noticeable effect upon how the hives operated. It took about a month for the hive to really use the top entrance, but once they did, they tend to favor that entrance for nectar and the bottom entrance for pollen. I only had robbing occur once early in my season, but nothing past the one incident I witnessed. I did not notice the bees avoiding storing honey near the top, in fact they went so far to build comb attached to the top (I left too much space, about 5/8") and they filled that with honey too. This coming season I will try the mid entrance as well and reduce the space I gave them.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Joe C, how do you build those entrance rims so that they have some strength to them, I mean if they are only 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick material, how do you join the corners together and end up with them being somewhat strong so they don't just fall apart. Thanks.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I always get too carried away with new ideas so maybe I will also try JC’s top entry on a side by side test of a couple of hives. Do you use window screen for your robber screen (cheaper and easier to work than #8 hardware cloth). The last experiment I tried with the top entry I just had a hundred bees guarding it for the month and nobody seemed to used it. Maybe if I start them in spring between the deeps and supers as a middle entry?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I find that to get bees to use a new top entrance, you can't have a bottom entrance open, you have to eliminate it and force them to use the new entrance. Once they get used to it real good, it might take a week, then you can give them a small bottom entrance if you like in addition to the upper.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

jmgi,

I've tried different joining techniques. The back corners are half lapped, glued and fastened with staples driven in at an angle. Small, pieces of metal, can be used to reinforce the joints (best if used both top and bottom). In the front, I fasten a piece of wood, across the entire rim/shim where it would rest against the front of the super above it, then staple a piece of #8 hardware cloth on top, also this functions as a robber screen. Small pieces of wood, the right thickness and various lengths can be placed in the opening thus created, and function as entrance reducers.

When I'm running a colony for honey, after making sure there is a small entrance somewhere in the brood area (so drones can get out), I place a queen excluder over the brood supers, and place the entrance rim/shim immediately on the excluder. This necessitates the workers to go through the excluder to access the brood area. They've always taken most of the pollen through the excluder and into the brood area. Hopefully they will do that for you, too.

You've also given me the idea to fasten my metal rimmed wire excluders to these entrance rim/shim's, making them into a single piece of beekeeping equipment, which should create a much more durable piece of gear. I will be making some, like this, soon, and plan to use them this coming season.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I've just been using #8 hardware cloth for the robber screen parts of these entrance rim/shim's. I use it because it's what I have available. I don't see why window screen wouldn't work just as well.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Triangles build strength and stop racking. Maybe if I use as solid piece of wood for the corners with a 3/8” rabbit and glue the ends in? I built some of the entrances just like Joseph mentioned (but without the screen) and they are really delicate. Just thinking out loud here as the reinforcement portion of the thread triggered a thought. I should have bee space on either the top or the bottom of the box so I could get by with a wider piece of wood for the triangle part. (no SHB in these parts to worry about additional hidey holes).


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