# Bottling honey



## Paulemar

I've never done any cleaning to honey containers. I've looked at them directly out of the case & they all appeared spotless. I imagine that they have not been touched or exposed to contamination in the whole manufacturing process. In any event, honey is anti-bacterial.


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## Eikel

dishwasher and fill em


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## B52EW

agree dishwasher first


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## I'llbeedan

I run them through the scullery, then bottle. Clean safe and I can guarantee it>


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## cheryl1

I called the company I get them from since I use plastic and it isn't dishwasher safe. They said to rinse off if there is any visible manufacturing dust on the inside, otherwise they are ready to fill


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## The Honey Householder

I pull the case off the skid and open the box and start filling. If it's good enough for Dutch Gold then it good enough for me. 
Really isn't honey anti-bacterial????? :scratch:
We only sell 4-5 skids worth of bottled honey a year anyway.


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## sqkcrk

Honey jars are ready to fill straight from the box when bought. Squeeze bears and all other plastic containers too. That's why I always use jars sold for honey, and not canning jars. Some jars, other than honey jars, have a film of oil on them. Stick with honey jars.


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## Acebird

Joe, we put honey in all kinds of containers (only glass). This year I got so much honey I have to sell it so I bought glass honey jars. I am a little OCD about cleanliness and thought about running the jars through the dishwasher but with careful inspection I could not find a speck of dust / dirt in the jars I bought. They are packaged in the case upside down so when stored based on the printed box any kind of dirt is bound to be knocked out of the jar in shipment. I took them straight out of the case filled them and put them right side up in the case. I am absolutely confident that I didn't do anything wrong.


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## Riskybizz

We use a lot of 1 lb. Paragon Jars. They are used a lot for honey but not exclusively. They don't need additional sterilization even though they are not just honey jars. This thread is somewhat confusing. We are pretty small time here but we still bottle and label about 1000 cases a year. If you only have a few cases to bottle then toss them in the dishwasher if that makes you feel better.


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## sqkcrk

Of course do what makes you feel better. It just isn't necessary, that's all.


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## psfred

PET doesn't have plasticizers, it's one of the advantages.

The bottles were sterile when packed, the heat required to blow mold them will kill anything on them, and unless you have chlorine injection, your water probably has more bacteria than the bottles did when molded. There is no mold release agent on the INSIDE of the bottles.

Glass was melted when it was formed, nothing is gonna live through that, so new containers should be quite clean.

USED containers, on the other hand, should be run through the dishwasher. I do NOT sell honey in used containers, ever. Always brand new with a seal. Granted I only sell an handful, but will not ever sell honey in recycled containers, washed or not. Why take the risk?

Peter


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## Acebird

psfred said:


> PET doesn't have plasticizers, it's one of the advantages.


Right you are. Thanks for setting me straight.


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## Acebird

psfred said:


> Why take the risk?
> 
> Peter


Because there is virtually no risk with honey. I am sure none of the equipment you use for extracting and bottling is sterile. And although the process of making the jars is sterile it doesn't stay that way. None of the packaging and handling of the jars before it gets to you is sterile. The jars would have as much bacterial (if not more) then the jars coming out of a dishwasher. This is not a concern with honey.
Keep in mind that the bees can be drinking contaminated water, walking all over the ground and in fields where animals poop and then crawling all over the frames that you are going to cut the cappings off and go right into a container with all the honey you intend to bottle. None of this is a concern for packing honey. Reusing a ball jar is of no concern either.


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## oldforte

Acebird, why bring up the dirty facts...when it's the* feelings *that count!


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## Acebird

oldforte said:


> Acebird, why bring up the dirty facts...when it's the* feelings *that count!


I don't understand your point. Am I hurting someone's feelings?


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## Eikel

> Quote Originally Posted by oldforte View Post
> 
> Acebird, why bring up the dirty facts...when it's the feelings that count!
> I don't understand your point. Am I hurting someone's feelings?


Acebird, I don't think Oldforte meant any harm, he was gearing up to bolt out in song with a chorus of "Feelings"


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## oldforte

If one* feels *that the bottle needs to be washed....it has zero bearing on whether it *needs* washing....Acebird, your facts are correct....if one feels a need to clean the bottles one also needs to clean the bees feet at their entrance to the hive...and that's a fact.


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## jim lyon

FWIW I got a shipment of glass in once that had some sort of residue on the jars. When I questioned the dealer he contacted the manufacturer who said it was normal and not to worry. I think they referred to it as "bloom" if memory serves me.


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## ritan1

You're not aiming for sterilization, but just sanitization. Honey is low enough in water that it is naturally anti-microbial. Generally speaking, extension services recommend that you wash and dry the bottles and lids in hot soapy water and let dry completely. I think it is a good idea to do this just to make sure there's no dust, chips, or small particles that might affect the lids staying on air tight. Honey is hygroscopic and can absorb water. If moisture gets into honey from a lid that is not on tight, it can dilute it and cause it to grow yeasts and molds. I'm just a hobbyist, but I want my honey jars to be spotlessly beautiful, so I do a quick wash before and after bottling.


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## sqkcrk

It's my understanding that jars are usually palletized with the jar opening on the bottom. The jar standing upside down. What I don't understand is why the cases in the top layer on a pallet of 5 lb jars is upside down, putting the open end up? Are they structurally stronger that way, should another pallet be stacked on top of the first pallet?

I get a partial pallet of one pound round glass jars for my Raw Honey. All of the cases are upside down. A pain in the butt if I send someone else to garb a case and they don't know and spill the case.

I wonder why they do that? It defeats the idea of the open end down.


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## sqkcrk

ritan1 said:


> I'm just a hobbyist, but I want my honey jars to be spotlessly beautiful, so I do a quick wash before and after bottling.


Try something, why don't you? Next time you are bottling honey, wash a jar and don't wash another jar. Fill them both. Have someone take them both into another room and bring them back and see if you can tell which is which.

As far as moisture getting into honey if the lid isn't on tight, how long do you think you would have to leave a lid completely off before the moisture content of the honey changed measurably? Yer needlessly worrying about something you don't need to.

" you wash and dry the bottles and lids in hot soapy water and let dry completely" What? You don't rinse them afterwards? Do you air dry them? Or with a dish towel?

If you bought a box of caps for honey jars, a full box, there is no need to wash them. They are ready to use right out of the box. Metal caps or plastic flip tops. Certainly you don't wash plastic flip top lids, do you ritan1? Do you remove the diaphragm first?


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> As far as moisture getting into honey if the lid isn't on tight, how long do you think you would have to leave a lid completely off before the moisture content of the honey changed measurably?


We have used antique honey jars for our table honey which are not even close to air tight. They have a notch to allow the handle of the wooden spoon to go through the cover. This hygroscopic characteristic of honey is way over played.


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## psfred

Nice new never used bottle with a seal greatly reduces the risk of complaints, founded or not, of "dirty bottles" or "contamination". I'm not worried about sterility, but looking to eliminate complaints. Only takes one nut case to ruin your day.

Peter


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## sqkcrk

I understand, psfred. In all the years and the thousands and thousands of bottles of honey I have sold directly to grocery stores I have only ever had one concern. Apparently I had not screwed the cap of a squeeze bear down tightly enough because when the customer removed the cap to remove the diaphragm the diaphragm was still in the cap, not sealed on top of the bear.

Use new jars and lids and screw them down tight and things will be alright.


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## challenger

I am scrupulous about the cleanliness of the 3.125 million honey jars I use each year. I triple wash them by hand, one by one. First in a saturated saline solution, then in a vat of pure and clean "spring" water and a final time in a large sink filled with my own recipe I call "essence of germ freeness". Then I dry them individually using a large herd of mice that I have raised just for this purpose. I dress these mice in nice terry cloth robes and a blindfold. I insert a mouse into each bottle and come back in a few hours and the bottles are dry. I wear a hairnet, a beard net, disposable sanitary gloves. Other than that I am naked as I do not wish that my clothing may deposit any lint or maggots into the bottles. Oh, I almost forgot, I also wear a condom. This way I know I am practicing safe bottling.
Actually none of that is true. I just use plastic bottles that are brandy new from taped boxes. The bottles are upside down and I fill all the bottles from any box i open and seal them within seconds of filling with self sealing lids.
I do fill jars for people that bring me theirs. Some folks buy fairly often and 3+ pounds at a time for a little discount. If they bring me a jar it gets filled. If it is dirty it is their dirt and I would not feel right charging them for it
I hate mice BTW


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Apparently I had not screwed the cap of a squeeze bear down tightly enough because when the customer removed the cap to remove the diaphragm the diaphragm was still in the cap, not sealed on top of the bear.


Mark, what is the diaphragm? Is it some form of gasket?


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## ritan1

In my neck of the woods, washing includes rinsing!  (When you wash your hair, do you rinse it?) and "let dry" means air dry. While my jars might have been clean when I got them, many have been in my basement for a year or more where they can get dirty/dusty (and my lids ship off). A quick wash is harmless and easily incorporated into my procedures; I'm just a hobbyist, so it is small potatoes. And yes, I also cover my hair, wash my hands and wear a clean apron when I bottle. It is important also to note that our state/county extension service says to wash glass jars, and I believe so does our local food regs, so doing that gets me off the hook. I don't use plastic, so I can't comment on that. I don't hold it against anyone who doesn't do what I do. In any case, why are we giving people a hard time about taking an extra step in terms of cleanliness? As long as they're not doing it out of ignorance, there's no downside. I'm a suspenders and belt kind of person! Yes, it is an extra step, but how many extra steps do you take in your business (or life) because it makes a difference to you? Instead of getting on people's case for doing a bit extra, let's save that energy for people not doing enough.


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## sqkcrk

Yes, Brian.


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## Acebird

ritan1 said:


> In any case, why are we giving people a hard time about taking an extra step in terms of cleanliness?


Are we doing that? You can wash you glass containers and dry them in the oven if you like. I think all we are saying is it is not necessary and you should not give those who do not do it a hard time.


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## sqkcrk

ritan1 said:


> In my neck of the woods, washing includes rinsing!  (When you wash your hair, do you rinse it?) and "let dry" means air dry. While my jars might have been clean when I got them, many have been in my basement for a year or more where they can get dirty/dusty (and my lids ship off). A quick wash is harmless and easily incorporated into my procedures; I'm just a hobbyist, so it is small potatoes.. And yes, I also cover my hair, wash my hands and wear a clean apron when I bottle. It is important also to note that our state/county extension service says to wash glass jars, so doing that gets me off the hook. I don't use plastic, so I can't comment on that. I don't hold it against anyone who doesn't do what I do. In any case, why are we giving people a hard time about taking an extra step in terms of cleanliness? As long as they're not doing it out of ignorance, there's no downside. I'm a suspenders and belt kind of person! Yes, it is an extra step, but how many extra steps do you take in your business (or life) because it makes a difference to you? Instead of getting on people's case for doing a bit extra, let's save that energy for people not doing enough.


Hey, I'm just saying it ain't necessary. If that's getting on people's case, well, I'm sorry. And, since you brought it up, maybve that's what makes a difference between a hobby beekeeper and professional beekeeper, someone who doesn't take extra steps needlessly.

"(and my lids ship off)"? What the heck does that mean? And how do jars in boxes get dirty/dusty? Mine never do. Mine are stored on pallets in a bay of my building where some sit for a year, in their boxes. They are just as clean as the day I took them off the truck. Do you take yours out of their box and sit them somewhere out in the open air?


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## DPBsbees

I know for a fact that Mark and Jim have bottled millions of more bottles than me, but I get mine from Gamber and out the box and in goes the honey. Not one complaint and we eat it too. If you want to to be Felix Unger have a blast.


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## sqkcrk

I'm more of an Oscar Madison myself.


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## beeware10

we have toured dutch gold and tropical blossom. while upside down a quick blast of air hits each bottle. the only reason is to remove any dust so granulation is delayed as long as possible. nothing to do with sanitary. just shelf life. dutch gold is the second largest packer after sue bee.


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## Roland

SQKCRK - from an aging memory..... The GLASS jars come down the line sterile, and are placed in open RSC boxes with the open end down. The flaps are not sealed, and the cases are placed on the pallet UNTIL the top row is reached. At this point, the cases are inverted so that the loose flaps are down, but the open end of the jar is up. If they did not do this, the loose flaps would be up.

Alot of jars now come inverted on a slip sheet, wrapped in pallet wrap. You must purchase a RSC to pack them in after filling.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird

New buzz word "RSC".


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## sqkcrk

Roland said:


> SQKCRK - from an aging memory..... The GLASS jars come down the line sterile, and are placed in open RSC boxes with the open end down. The flaps are not sealed, and the cases are placed on the pallet UNTIL the top row is reached. At this point, the cases are inverted so that the loose flaps are down, but the open end of the jar is up. If they did not do this, the loose flaps would be up.
> 
> Alot of jars now come inverted on a slip sheet, wrapped in pallet wrap. You must purchase a RSC to pack them in after filling.
> 
> Crazy Roland


That makes sense, Roland. Thanks.


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## Andrew Dewey

Food regulations are different in each state and you'll need to comply with the regulations prior to selling your honey. In Maine, we are required to sanitize containers (even new jars intended to hold honey) with a bleach solution. Honey is treated here as a food product, and there are no exemptions for the size of your operation. (Though the Farm Bureau says one of their goals for 2016 is a licensing exemption for anyone selling 100lbs or less per year.


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## AstroBee

The state of VA requires that jars be sanitized prior to filling. This is part of their certification process for honey.


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## ritan1

Precisely. My state says you have to sanitize even new jars. Is it overkill? Maybe, but it is required.


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## sqkcrk

AstroBee said:


> The state of VA requires that jars be sanitized prior to filling. This is part of their certification process for honey.


They? Who?


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## sqkcrk

ritan1 said:


> Precisely. My state says you have to sanitize even new jars. Is it overkill? Maybe, but it is required.


Required by whom?


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## Acebird

Exactly how do these states that require sanitation of the jars prove it has or has not been done?


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## AstroBee

sqkcrk said:


> They? Who?


VA Dept of Agriculture Consumer Services. The rules have been in flux over the past 10 years, but now, if you're a large producer, you must be inspected. Small producers have the option of being inspected. Those small producers who decide not to be inspected must display additional labeling on their honey containers indicating that their product has not been inspected. Small producers who get inspected are not required to display the additional label.

This is an annual inspection that requires an inspector to visit your processing facility and you must also pay an annual license fee.


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## AstroBee

Acebird said:


> Exactly how do these states that require sanitation of the jars prove it has or has not been done?




They certify your process. It is not a jar-by-jar inspection. Similar to restaurants, just not as rigorous or continuous.


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## Acebird

AstroBee said:


> They certify your process.


Do they require process documentation, ask for the documentation and review the documentation apun inspection?


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## AstroBee

Acebird said:


> Do they require process documentation, ask for the documentation and review the documentation apun inspection?


Yes to all. When I first applied it was a fairly involved application. The first inspection was very detailed. Once you've passed the first inspection, later annual inspections are quicker.


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## sqkcrk

AstroBee said:


> This is an annual inspection that requires an inspector to visit your processing facility and you must also pay an annual license fee.


Do they leave you with a list of violations and a date by which you must be in compliance? How much is the fee?

What I find funny here is that people I know think that NY is suppressive, but we don't have regs like these.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Do they leave you with a list of violations and a date by which you must be in compliance?


If there is any truth to what he is saying, it is public knowledge. You can look it up, see who fails.

Don't worry Mark I believe you can do what you are doing and sell to a Virginian and break no laws.


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## sqkcrk

You thought I was worried?


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> You thought I was worried?


Not really. I don't picture you as a guy that worries.


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## AstroBee

sqkcrk said:


> Do they leave you with a list of violations and a date by which you must be in compliance? How much is the fee?


The only time I had a violation it was written up on their form and left with me to comply. No follow-up inspection - no fine. Although it was a very minor issue. Certification fee is $40/year. 

Again, as a small producer (resident who sells less than 250 gallons of honey annually), inspections are not mandatory (no fees at all). 



sqkcrk said:


> What I find funny here is that people I know think that NY is suppressive, but we don't have regs like these.


I suspect that NY has us beat in other areas


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