# lot's of comb on queencell - problem?



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

I will be harvesting my two queencells tomorrow and peeked at them today. Over the past 5 days, the nurse bees have built a lot of comb all around the cells. There are only two cells on the bar and each cell is not almost the diameter of a paper towel roll (over 1" diameter) and also has at least another 1/2" of comb below the cell.

Is this additional comb a problem and should I do something about it? I think it is vey unlikely that the virgin queen can free hersulf without the nurse bees removing at least 1 half inch of comb for her so that the sidewalls of her cell are exposed.

I will be harvesting tomorrow and can try to take a piture then, but in the meantime I would appreciate to know if anyone else has experienced this and what they have done about it?

-fafrd


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Trim from the tip and go toward the base do it in 2-3 passes do the tip last if wax is over the tip and be gentle


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## Illinois (Feb 23, 2007)

I don't trim. Queen always seems to find the way out.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Here is a picture of how the queen cells looked this evening:










They are storing nectar in the cells surrounding the queen cells. They even formed a queen cup in the comb below the queen cell.

I will be harvesting tomorrow and would appreciate further opinions :scratch: on whether I can leave these cells as is or should trip back from the bottom until the bottom of the cell is on the surface...

Thanks!

-fafrd

p.s. for comparison, here is how the cells looked 6 days ago (just as they were getting capped)


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

I'm harvesting 3 queencells on Monday and have one that's entombed in comb as well. I'll have a better look at it then & decide what to do...or just leave & see if she can emerge ok. I wonder if this could have been prevented if the bees in the cell builder had some foundation to draw rather than trying to build comb within the cell bar frame? :scratch:


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

That looks good to some i have seen


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Velbert said:


> That looks good to some i have seen


So you would leave them alone or trim back when harvesting?

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

denny said:


> I'm harvesting 3 queencells on Monday and have one that's entombed in comb as well. I'll have a better look at it then & decide what to do...or just leave & see if she can emerge ok. I wonder if this could have been prevented if the bees in the cell builder had some foundation to draw rather than trying to build comb within the cell bar frame? :scratch:


I had an empty foundationless frame in there, but they decided to draw on the queencells instead. I continued feeding 1:1 sugar syrup after the cells were capped and I think next time I will stop the feeding after the cells have been capped.

Let me know what you decide to do - I'm leaning towards triming back a bit of the comb on the bottom unless a few more folks pipe up and tell me to leave things alone. It seems like a great deal of comb and nectar for the queen to chew through on her own unless the house bees pave the way in advance...

-fafrd


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

would cut off just a little on the tip of the one 

would make up both of your nuc to accomadate the early hatching queen cell a few hours differance wont matter in the later hatching queen cell.

would not put them in the hair curler or even in the cell protector just make up your nuc several hours ahead of placing queen cell in 2-6 hours i like over night best 

I have put them in about 2 -4 hours after pulling out laying queen most will turn out but I have noticed i get about 15% better ture out if waiting over night


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

fafrd said:


> Let me know what you decide to do - I'm leaning towards triming back a bit of the comb on the bottom unless a few more folks pipe up and tell me to leave things alone. It seems like a great deal of comb and nectar for the queen to chew through on her own unless the house bees pave the way in advance...
> 
> -fafrd


I just checked them again today, and it looks like the bees are leaving the cap exposed on two of the three cells and not building comb over it,...just building comb along the sides. So I'll just leave them alone. The third I will probably trim, as it has the most comb, which they've added to each day. I'll try & get some pictures.


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## WPG (Mar 28, 2010)

Leave them alone until you are ready to distribute to the nucs.

The bees know what they are doing.

The bees are controlling when the queens hatch out. The one with the most build-up can't hatch first and destroy the others. And the others can't get to her easily if they hatch first. 

If the first queens don't come back from the mating flight or are unacceptable for some reason they will have one in reserve.

When you put the queen cell in the nuc and it is their only chance for a queen the workers will clean it up and help her get out.

Goodluck


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

WPG said:


> Leave them alone until you are ready to distribute to the nucs.
> 
> The bees know what they are doing.
> 
> ...


Interesting way of interpreting the excess comb build-up, WPG - thanks for the reply. Assuming your read is correct, it means that the bees on their own are attempting to do what I was thinking about doing with hiar-roller-cages (prevent the possibility that one queen emerges early and destroys the other cells).

I ended up more or less following your advice and harvested my two cells without trimming into mating nucs on Sunday. Would you advise to check after a certain amount of time whether the virgins have emerged or just wait another 2-3 weeks before checking for open brood in the nucs?

-fafrd


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## habutti (Apr 20, 2008)

Fafrd, there are many cool queen rearing calendars out there that with a little data input will give you tons of information including the exact date as to when to check after introducing the cells to mating nucs. I usually go in 5-6 days later.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

habutti said:


> Fafrd, there are many cool queen rearing calendars out there that with a little data input will give you tons of information including the exact date as to when to check after introducing the cells to mating nucs. I usually go in 5-6 days later.


habutti, thanks for the reply.

I know about the schedule - my cells should emerge tomorrow or latest on Wednesday. My question was more on whether it was a good idea to check in that the virgin emerged successfully or to just leave everything alone for 3 weeks or so until she should be laying...

Why do you usually go in to check after 5-6 days and is there any donwside to doing so?

-fafrd


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I go in a couple of days after the hatch date and remove the cells.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

beedeetee said:


> I go in a couple of days after the hatch date and remove the cells.


I guess that's a good idea to keep the queen cells from messing up the combs. It's probably better to go in before the virgin is getting close to first practice flights, right? My cells are supposed to emerge tomorrow, so I'll plan on peeking and removing the cells on Thursday.

thanks,

-fafrd


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

You can also tell which ones didn't hatch.


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## WPG (Mar 28, 2010)

The least amount of disturbance till brood check is best.

Gently removing empty cell and repositioning frames and careful closeup OK.

To really see what is happening during this process, satisfy curiosity, and learn; you need an observation hive(s).

Have fun


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

WPG said:


> The least amount of disturbance till brood check is best.
> 
> Gently removing empty cell and repositioning frames and careful closeup OK.
> 
> ...


Already have an observation hive and have observed the entire process once, so curiosity is not my motivation.

I will gently remove the cells as you advise just to keep the comb from getting messed up from the cell between the frames. Was not planning on searching for the virgin in any case, but thanks for the reminder.

-fafrd


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## habutti (Apr 20, 2008)

Fafrd, I am sure you are taking notes from the lessons the bees have been sharing with you so far during this process. One that pops out is the fact that burr comb on queen cells is no big deal for the bees as much as it is for some beekeepers. Your queens emerged just fine despite your concerns regarding the burr comb. Like someone here said, and forgive me for not remembering who to give proper credit "Bees make better beekeepers, than beekeepers make bees" or something like that.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

habutti said:


> burr comb on queen cells is no big deal for the bees as much as it is for some beekeepers. Your queens emerged just fine despite your concerns regarding the burr comb. Like someone here said, "Bees make better beekeepers, than beekeepers make bees" or something like that.


habutti,

completely agree. On the other hand, I think it is also appropriate to recognize that many of the manipulation that beekeepers put hives through are not completely 'natural' to bees and can go awry without oversight and possible correction. This includes queen breeding using grafting and cell bars, as well as much more basic elements such as the use of frames and foundation to manage hives.

It's always much easer to relax the 'second time around' when you know how to interpret what the bees are up to and how it is likely to all work out.

When I first saw the comb built up on the cells I was worried it was becasue I was feeding the bees and they became so focused on building up comb to store the sugar syrup that they 'forgot' that the had queen cells on the cell-bar frame and covered the cells with comb to store syrup. Also, the finisher hive was queenright by this time, so I was worried the bees might be les concerned with the emerging queens han they were when the cells were started and the same hive was queenless. In otherwords, lots of variables to be concerned about this first time around - what changed and what does it mean?

I believe what I learnd through this experience is that in fact the bees purposely build comb on cells to help control the emergence date of the queens so that they emerge in sequence, and once they want a queen to emerge they know exactly how to make that happen. The bees never stored any nectar in the comb tey built on the cells, and they removed the comb at the bottom of the cell to help the queens emerge once the cells had been harvested. If hey had not built comb surrounding the entire cell including the side walls, the virgin queen could have possibly punched her way out through the side walls, so a complete cocoon of comb would be the most sensible strategy to delay emergence and assure agaist the possibility of premature emergence. What is funny is that I had been considering adding hair roller cages onto the cells to prevent against the possibility of premature (day 15) emergence, so apparently the bees and I were both worried about the same thing.

I had not read about that behavior in any of the queen-rearing books that I have read and still unsure why others typically don't see this behavior. It might be because I used a cell bar to raise only two queen cells, which is within the range of 'normal' for a hive (ie" 'natural'), where many of the professional breeders use cell bars to raise 10's if not 100's of cells at once (which is not 'natural' for a hive and may overwhelm any instinct the bees have to control the sequence of emergence i this manner).

Anyway, part of what makes this hobby so fascinating is the practically infinite number of variables to manipulate, facets to study, and lessons to learn .

-fafrd


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm not entirely sure the bees would be able to hold a queen in a cell for a significant amount of time. I know that they will choose which ones to release first by chewing back the wax and exposing the cocoon. However the thinking that they will hold another queen which is relatively the same age as another in a cell until they know the first one has mated and returned safely seems a bit far fetched. I think the "contained" queen would starve in the cell long before the released queen would ever mate. The "contained" queen could also be easily stung to death while inside the cell.

I have also seen the bees build wax from one cell bar to the next, especially during a good flow. That is when it is a problem because all the cells are connected together and you basically need to use a sharp knife to seperate the cells. The extra wax you are seeing doesn't seem like anything to worry about at all.


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