# Ups Warning



## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Just to let you fellow beekeepers know out there of a recent experience with UPS. Last year they "lost" our last order of queens and they told me tough luck I should have insured them. Subsequently this year I took their advice and we insured nearly all of our UPS queen shipments. The fees for insurance and shipping were auto-deducted by UPS directly from our bank account. Well they blew a next day delivery this September also, and took three days for an in state delivery. Needless to say they killed all 104 queens and just told me tough luck they will not cover perishable items. I have tried reasoning with them, to no avail. The fact that they took insurance fees for these items with no intention of covering them seems very unethical and possible illegal.

Anybody have some ideas on how to get them to do the right thing?


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## Moonshae (Jun 7, 2007)

Talk to a lawyer...seems that the point of insurance is to make sure the goods arrive as they are supposed to.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

contact your state attorney general's office or the better business bureau. put your tax dollars to work, that's what they are there for.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

That was my response to them, and they stated that they cover no perishable items, ever. However they will take your insurance money even with no intention of covering the item. They have iron clad fine print, but I will pursue every legal possibility. The ethics of this organization appear to be very questionable. It was $1,500 worth of queens so it was not insignificant to our relatively small operation. I did invite them to check out this thread to see what other users of their service think.

I would not recommend shipping with UPS.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Great idea WVbee, I will pursue that tomorrow. I really appreciate the feedback. I got to run for now, just enough daylight to finish bee chores.


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

I had similar problems with them when I sold a lot on ebay years ago. they are self insured for the 1st 100. thats why they offer insurance free on the first 100 they are there own adjuster so naturally they dont pay claims in all the claims I have filed they paid on one and that was only because they said the item wasnt broke when It arrived they repacked it and sent it back since it was refused by the recipient when it arrived here it was broke they couldnt blame it on packaging since they are the ones who repackaged it.


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## BeeAware (Mar 24, 2007)

I've had similiar experience with UPS as well. When I phoned to inquire about a shipment I had made, they informed me that it was not lost, but stated that they just didn't know where it was! Never did find it and never did send insurance check.

Last year I sent a shipment to Arkansas, gave the UPS clerk the correct zip code and she informed me that the zip code I gave her was not correct for the destination city. It was correct, but she went ahead and put another zip code on the label, sent the box to the wrong town in Arkansas. When I called to get them to re-deliver the shipment to the correct address, they said I'd have to pay a fee for that service. So, it seems it is the policy of UPS to make as many errors as possible and then charge the shipper for correcting it.

This year I plan to try FedEx.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

JBJ said:


> Anybody have some ideas on how to get them to do the right thing?


You're doing it now. 

What an eye-opener. I'm pretty shocked at what I'm reading, and will surely be using other carriers in the future for my shipping needs. It's unethical in my view, and a dishonest business practice..... just to make a buck.


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## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

The threat of a lawsuit (and a good lawyerly letter) is often better than an actual lawsuit. $1,500 is chicken feed to a company that might have to pay a lawyer to defend themselves. 



JBJ said:


> Just to let you fellow beekeepers know out there of a recent experience with UPS. Last year they "lost" our last order of queens and they told me tough luck I should have insured them. Subsequently this year I took their advice and we insured nearly all of our UPS queen shipments. The fees for insurance and shipping were auto-deducted by UPS directly from our bank account. Well they blew a next day delivery this September also, and took three days for an in state delivery. Needless to say they killed all 104 queens and just told me tough luck they will not cover perishable items. I have tried reasoning with them, to no avail. The fact that they took insurance fees for these items with no intention of covering them seems very unethical and possible illegal.
> 
> Anybody have some ideas on how to get them to do the right thing?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Needless to say they killed all 104 queens and just told me tough luck they will not cover perishable items. 


They advertise offering insurance for perishable items. You may need to contact a different customer service representative.

>Flexible Parcel Insurance may allow you to: 

>Protect against damage to high-value, perishable, or time-sensitive items 
>Protect items that are ineligible for standard carrier liability programs 

Perhaps you bought the wrong insurance?

http://capital.ups.com/solutions/flexible_parcel.html

Here is how to contact them. -> http://scsmail.ups-scs.com/InternetForms/capital/flex_claim.aspx


I think they are slimy. A few years ago they went to an overnight only shipping policy for shipping handguns. Their justification was if they had them in their possession a shorter time they would be less likely to be stolen by their employees. So we get to pay a higher price for quicker shipping that we don't need so they make more money and lessen their insurance claims from thievery. 

Fed-Ex isn't stupid either so they jumped on the bandwagon too and also demand overnight handgun service too. Now it costs about $100 to ship from here to either coast.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

There was only one coverage offered on their standard shipping form. The instructions simply said to mark the declared value box and list the value and an additional fee would be billed to our account for coverage for items valued in excess of $100.

I have been trying to wade through their "terms and conditions" on the shipping document. They are written in extremely tiny light gray on the shipping form; it is almost ridiculous to write that small in light gray on white paper. As far as I have been able to ascertain the word perishable is not even mentioned on that document, but it says to see there website for additional terms and conditions. There appears to be volumes of legalese. 

The other not so nice thing about this affair is that it took them 2 weeks to issue a claim number and two more weeks to call and attempt to deny the claim.


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## Aisha (May 2, 2007)

In cases like these, I usually escalate to the higher manager or VP and be firm and nice. 

Be sure to get the full names of everyone you talk to and document it. Be sure to pass those names upwards in terms of your dissatisfaction. I might even contact the press, what with the colony collapse disorder worrying so many people who adore bees and honey. We can't lose anymore queens to slipshod shipping. 

Truthfully, they are standing to lose a lot more by not making things right. And Christmas shipping season is almost upon us. UPS doesn't need the bad press before Christmas when so many people need to ship items safely without worrying. I don't know about you, but honey is a big part of Christmas where I come from. 

I hope this time is different and the savvy folks at UPS will really come through for you and make things right! 

Good luck!


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

Scut Farkas said:


> The threat of a lawsuit (and a good lawyerly letter) is often better than an actual lawsuit. $1,500 is chicken feed to a company that might have to pay a lawyer to defend themselves.


companies like ups have lawyers on the pay role at there disposal 24 7 the only way the settle out of court is if they dont have a case and it is going to cost more to defend the suit than it would cost to pay the settlment


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

spread the word around (this is called negative word of mouth advertising) and go straight to the top of the food chain as quickly as possible. there is no reason to linger on the lower rungs of the ladder where people only think they have some authority. the more noise you make (negative word of mouth advertising with a megaphone) the greater the perception by the person at the top that this incident is costing them money.... get belligerent and loud (although this may be far from your true nature) in the lobby when a crowd has formed. the fellow at the top can ignore as much of that fine print as he need to to make this 'problem' go away.

in the end, if ups was desiring to do the right thing then the would be flipping over backwards to make certain their customers were happy with their service. and service is what they are selling right?


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## MBrowne (Jan 21, 2007)

UPS did me last spring! I had 5 packages that they repacked, in plastic bags, then in a cardboard box. NO survivors!


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

dont know why people us UPS, I went to send a over night package last year and they said they was going to charge 17 dollars. the guy told me he couldn't get it to the post office in time that day to send it because that's how they shipped it was through the postal service for over night deliveries, I told the guy you got to be joking, I took it to the post office and they charges me 9 dollars. UPS is nothing but a rip off IMHO, I send my queens through the post office or FedEx....


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

TWT:

How is your experiance with Fed Ex?


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Well we all have stories about shiping 

Personaly I think USPS overnit is a BIG RIP I sent a check once by usps overnite and it would have gotten to where it was going faster if I had put a stamp on it and droped it in the mail box!!

We have a guy in our club that is giong round and round with DHL now over an extractor he ordered and when it arived it is damaged beyond use, he called the supplier and was told to call DHL, guess who wont return his calls so it don`t make much differance what color the truck is shipping is a PAIN in the back side!!!!


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

There may be a reason their trucks are 'brown'. It may be a suttle indication of quality of service - if you get my drift.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Chef Isaac said:


> TWT:
> 
> How is your experience with Fed Ex?


I haven't shipped through them yet but have got queens shipped to me from Dann Purvis through FedEx, he called one morning and told me he was shipping them that day and they would be there the next day well the next day at noon they were delivered and the guy put them under my roofed deck and taped the package to the back door in the shade, this was done 2 times and they were right on time both times, I will use them this coming year and see but being on the receiving end they are great.....


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## nsmith1957 (Sep 7, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> How is your experiance with Fed Ex?


I worked for FedEx Ground before. If you use Ground for anything, do not be surprised if it arrives damaged.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I havent had any problems with UPS on queens being delivered to me from 3 different suppliers, but they all told me that UPS DOES NOT insure queens and they would be shipped at MY own risk. Fed ex is great at getting documents delivered, but has mangled and lost too many orders for me to ever trust them with queens.


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## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

If you have an Attorney General like WV has I would complain to them, the better business bureau is not much more than a complaint listing service.

About UPS and lawsuits they will fight to the last minute. I have a friend who's daughter was killed by a flying ups truck. The driver admitted to driving 60mph on an ice covered road. He lost control and crossed a medium hitting her car. They still took 4 years and faught till the day before trial.

Go to someone with clout like an Attorney General.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Here is the letter ( with a few small changes) I faxed to Wilbanks in order to get them to ship UPS.Maybe you should get your customers to do something similar.

Date:XX/XX/XXXX
TO: WILBANKS APIARIES 
FROM: xxxx xxxxxx
BAILINGWIRE BEES LLC

I HEREBY ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR QUEENS SHIPPED TO ME BY UPS FROM THIS DATE FORWARD .
I UNDERSTAND UPS WILL NOT INSURE 
QUEENS SHIPPED BY THEM.
Signed:
XXXX XXXXXX
1234 Hick Street
*******, CA 123456

------------------------------------


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Well today we will try to climb the corporate ladder, so to speak. We have been dealing with a few folks a few rungs up but to no avail so far. I can understand an outfit clearly stating they will not insure queens, however for UPS to automatically tap my account all year for insurance on packages clearly labeled " live queen bees" and then boldly state that they will not cover perishables seems extremely unscrupulous. I will also bring some outside pressure to bear on the situation. Thanks for all the feedback. A good public flogging may help them see the light.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Unscrupulous for sure. I wouldnt eat that big of a loss either if they took my money.Go get em!


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

United Parcel Service Inc.
55 Glenlake Pkwy
Atlanta, GA 30328
United States 

Website: www.ups.com
Phone: (404) 828-6000
Fax: (404) 828-8022

Key People 

Michael Eskew
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Alan Gershenhorn
President
Kenneth Torok
President
David Abney
Chief Operating Officer
Thomas Weidemeyer
Chief Operating Officer


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Thank you WVB! 

Contact with a live person is a challenge with this outfit. All of the numbers I have captured on caller ID lead to a "...you have reached a non-working number" recording. They clearly want to avoid having to talk to their customers.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

no problem, i hope you get your issue resolved.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I ship a lot of stuff by Fedex Ground (not bees) and have never had them break anything yet. One crate over 100# did get hammered pretty good but survived. I much prefer dealing with Fedex to UPS, and they are generally cheaper. All that could change if I had to make a claim, but so far, so good.


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## geoffkb (Jul 2, 2007)

*Damaged packages*

I've read that couriers almost never compensate for damage because they argue that the packaging was insufficient. 

Of course they're right, if they can damage it then the packaging wasn't good enough. QED!


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## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

If they "lost" your order last year, why did you ship with them again? And, if you wanted to take a chance with them again, why didn't you take the time to read the fine print, and make certain that the shipment would be covered by insurance? "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me!"

All services have their complaints/charges of poor service, losses, etc. so there is always a shipping risk. I hope that your are able to recover your losses.

MM


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

MM, there is no mention of not covering perishables on the shipping document terms and conditions. Further, the client also requested UPS as their carrier. Lastly, the UPS representative I dealt with last year suggest that we need to be checking the declared value box on the shipping document form so that we would have insurance for future shipments, so I took his advice and did so this year.

Some clients are very insistent one one carrier over another, however most will go with who I recommend. 

Just received word the matter may not be closed yet! There is still a chance they may do the right thing.


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## knadai (Jun 24, 2007)

"We have a guy in our club that is giong round and round with DHL now over an extractor he ordered and when it arived it is damaged beyond use, he called the supplier and was told to call DHL, guess who wont return his calls so it don`t make much differance what color the truck is shipping is a PAIN in the back side!!!!"

The supplier is wrong. Your friend did not hire DHL; the supplier did. It's the supplier's problem. Assuming your friend paid by credit card, he/she should dispute the charge. The ordered item (a working extractor) was never received.


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## knadai (Jun 24, 2007)

Keep pushing against UPS. Adjusters make commission by denying claims. Check with your local laws and see if you can file suit in small claims court. If you do, one of their attorneys has to appear, and they might be more willing to settle. Finally, keep us posted on your progress.

If anyone on this forum is interviewed by the press regarding CCD, please mention the difficulty of raising new colonies given UPS's refusal to accept responsibility for killing starter queens.


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## geoffkb (Jul 2, 2007)

*Keep us posted.*

It would certainly do a good deal to redress the balance if they do the right thing.

I don't know how many people read this forum but I'm sure there's a lot of people who might be swayed back to UPS if they are seen to be prepared to listen.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

knadai said:


> "We have a guy in our club that is giong round and round with DHL now over an extractor he ordered and when it arived it is damaged beyond use, he called the supplier and was told to call DHL, guess who wont return his calls so it don`t make much differance what color the truck is shipping is a PAIN in the back side!!!!"
> 
> The supplier is wrong. Your friend did not hire DHL; the supplier did. It's the supplier's problem. Assuming your friend paid by credit card, he/she should dispute the charge. The ordered item (a working extractor) was never received.


My feelings too!!


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## mistergil (May 24, 2007)

It's a shame we can't always get the good service that we pay for. If all the dealing with UPS fails be sure to file a complaint with your AG http://www.doj.state.or.us/finfraud/index.shtml

As noted already, ours here in WV can be ruthless when they go to bat for you. I was ripped off for $40 on a rebate and the woman lawyer handling the complaint told the company they had two options 1. Pay the State $5,000 as they were in violation of some code or 2. Send me the $40. She gave them ten days to do it. They sent me the money the next day.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

The plight of the honeybee has been very newsworthy lately. Perhaps UPS' role the overall situation maybe newsworthy also.

No new new yet.

moving bees tonight... will hope for news tomorrow.


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## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

*Ups*

well my only experince with them was gross, I shipped 20 nuc's with them,bad newsI shipped 10 first time all arrived dead over heated all was in sured. next10 was was shipped by next day air at request of buyer at the rate of 750.00 and same thing dead. the adjusted refused to pay claim.
I think that [edit by mod]
they acceped my money to insured them then said no coverage on live frieght.
I always use the post office when something happens they least paid.
I wound never use them again.

Don


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*My advice*

I am a lawyer -- don't hurl too many insults this way, its just a job -- and not licensed in your state, so I'm not giving any advice here other than at least call a local lawyer about your problem. Ideally, look for somebody who does insurance defense work (usually represents insurers) but not UPS and would be willing to write a letter to UPS as an initial matter. Ask him/her whether: (1) the UPS insurance qualifies as "insurance" for legal purposes in that state; (2) whether Oregaon recognizes a cause of action for "bad faith"; (3) whether Oregon has consumer protection acts that invalidate unexpected "fine print" and (4) whether this would be an attorney fee claim. 

Also, I represent insurance companies and people who get sued mostly. Most property and casualty insurerance adjusters are good folks, although there are some bad apples and some bad insurers. I have never ever heard of an adjuster getting paid commissions to deny claims. Can't say its never happened, but that's really close to an urban legend.

If you do not want to involve a lawyer, then you might call your local court about filing a small claims case, but this one could be a bit complicated for a layperson to handle, and a hate letter to UPS might shake them loose. 

Again, this is not legal advice for your case, and I suggest you at least call a local lawyer.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I think pointing them at this thread was a good idea
they hate bad publicity
there's no excuse for such treatment

Dave


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

>I have never ever heard of an adjuster getting paid commissions to deny claims. Can't say its never happened, but that's really close to an urban legend.

sure they do. any time a claim is filed the insurance has x amount of dollars to pay on that claim(the amount insured). anything less the adjuster can get the insured to settle for from the x amount, the adjuster gets a percentage of the difference (commission). the company is willing to pay the commission because the adjuster saved them the difference between the settlement and what they should of payed(the amount insured). the company actually looks at it like they made money. i have a friend who is an adjuster and that's pretty much what he told me. i think the big problem here is that UPS was automatically tapping him for the cost of the insurance, and then saying that his package was uninsurable. they gave him a false sense of peace of mind by doing so and i think it is very unethical to sell a service that you have no intention of providing.


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## nsmith1957 (Sep 7, 2006)

I think the attorney(better name) is pointing you in the right direction. A "bad faith", in my state anyway, goes before a jury. I don't think UPS would want a jury deciding this. Thier amount of "$$risk$$" in a "bad faith" is mmmuuuccchhh greater than just paying your claim in full.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*What I'm telling ya is*

WVbeekeeper, I understand your theory, but that's not the way it really works. 

The post about potential "bad faith" claims hits the nail on the head and could give UPS a lot of reasons to settle.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

ndvan, i guess you're right since the us dept of labor don't call it commissions, they call it bonuses and beneftits. take note that there is no mention of bonuses and benefits for the appraisers, examiners, or investigators. why do they get those bonuses and benefits? by screwing people out of money they deserve and saving the company from paying the amount insured.	

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos125.htm

"Earnings of claims adjusters, appraisers, examiners, and investigators vary significantly. Median annual earnings were $44,220 in May 2004. The middle 50 percent earned between $33,900 and $57,410. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $27,220, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $72,620.

Many claims adjusters, especially those who work for insurance companies, receive additional bonuses or benefits as part of their job. Adjusters often are furnished a laptop computer, a cellular telephone, and a company car or are reimbursed for the use of their own vehicle for business purposes.

Median annual earnings of auto damage insurance appraisers were $45,330 in May 2004. The middle 50 percent earned between $37,210 and $54,280. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $29,550, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $63,220."


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*Hate to do this, but can't help myself*

I don't want to take this so far off topic, but you are really running down an entire group of people in an unfair way.

First, bonuses, company cars, laptops and cell phones are not commissions. The bonuses are actually just excuses that corporate america (including insurers and other business) uses to keep from giving actual, permanent raises to workers. The other stuff are just white collar tools. They are also tools for corporate america to keep their employees "at work" all of the dadgum time. Most insurance adjusters I know work long hours and are sometimes "on call" when they're "not working."

The wide difference in adjuster pay does not suggest that some are getting paid extra to deny valid claims. Most adjusters have college degrees, but very few have degrees in insurance or related areas. The learn on the job. The lower salaries are for newbees who are learning on the job. The higher salaries are for more experienced adjusters, many of whom have expertise in areas like medicine, construction and related law. Some of them are supervisors. A lot of them work a long hours. Its not an easy job, because there is a lot of conflict and some people, like you, assume that they are crooks and treat them accordingly. 

Finally, even if you assume that insurers are all crooked (and they aren't) denying valid claims is bad business. There's a whole lot of lawyers looking to sue insurance companies, and they just love it when the insurance companies goof, cause they get a contingency fee from the recovery. Most insurers realize that they are in the business of collecting money from policyholders, holding the money and paying claims that they owe when they come due. Obviously, there can be disagreements about whether a claim is owed at all and how much is due, which can lead to bad feelings and lawsuits. 

Also, I am less enthusiastic about health insurers, who, in my experience, engage in misbehavior much more than property/casualty insurers. 

Again, I'm not saying that all p&c insurers or adjusters are good and honest, but most are. 

Also, to get back on topic, it sounds to me like UPS is in the wrong, and I urge the person who started this post to talk to a lawyer to at least write a Nasty-Gram to hopefully get them to do the right thing. If you were in Oklahoma, I'd help you, but I can't practice law in another state. Also, I suspect that UPS,which is not really an insurance company, may not treat their claims like a legit insurer (at least based on what's been posted as the usual experince in this thread).


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## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

*go public big time*

Skip the small stuff and notify them that you are going to the press. Then contact a big magazine or paper and a well known television station. like Aishi mentioned, with ccd and bees being big in the news lately, they will eat the story right up. You'll probably have a camera crew at your door by the time you hang up the phone. There's nothing better than very public bad publicity to open up a company's eyes and pocketbook


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## knadai (Jun 24, 2007)

Well, I started the whole adjuster-commission mess. I stand by my comments although I will admit they are based on a friend's summer job as an adjuster almost twenty years ago in Phoenix.

Let's just say that SOME companies have SOME adjusters working for them that SOMETIMES give a knee-jerk "no" to a claim that, in the end, the company MIGHT be willing to pay if you press the issue. SOMETIMES they MIGHT be betting you give up the claim after the first one or two denials and/or hour(s) in voicemail hell. MAYBE not on purpose, MAYBE just by accident, the runaround they put you through and your subsequent abandonment of the claim benefits them financially. PERHAPS.

Write a polite, darn good letter explaining your position and mail multiple paper and email copies to any contact you can find at UPS THAT CAN HELP YOU. Sending them to the CEO and board of directors will not help you.

Look on the Internet and see if you can file a complaint with your Attorney General. 

The Better Business Bureau is worthless. They make money by selling memberships to businesses. They don't work for you. But if you have time to kill go for it. Just don't expect much. I've been a member of the BBB and never will again.

Finally, do talk to an attorney. Even if he/she tells you it isn't worth pursuing. That way, when you do talk to UPS, you can truthfully say, "I've spoken to an attorney, and I am confident of my position."

Finally, don't threaten them by voice or in writing. You should win based on the strength of your position and argument.

If all else fails, look into small claims court. It's cheap, and it's a good way to go if an attorney cannot help you.

Quit reading their small print. That was written by their attorneys to benefit them, not you. They hope you find something in there that will make you drop your claim all by yourself. Even if you do find something, it doesn't matter much. If it is unreasonable, the judge will ignore it anyway.

Ask them what the "insurance" _does_ cover. If it doesn't cover the "perishing" of the queens, you might want to double check the shipment. They might be "missing" instead.


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## UtahBeekeeper (Oct 14, 2006)

*WOW what an eye opener . . .*

. . . and it also seems that you will have your work cut out for you, JBJ, in both seeking compensation for the shabby manor in which UPS took your money, and in distilling the stream of pretty good advice posted here. Your best claim seems to be the fact that UPS took your insurance money with no intention of honoring a claim. Also, ndvan is a man and a letigator that I would like to be aquainted with should I ever need to retain council. He refuses to get loud in his cautions to us regarding the bashing of insurance companies and claims adjusters as a whole, and ndvan's reserved legal advise with accompanying disclaimer is right on target. The attorneys my family and I have known are wonderfull people to be around. Hell, I even liked my ex-wife's lawyer . . . he was a very calming influence in the proceedings and should I go looking for council I would try and get Mr Patterson. How lucky we are to have such a diverse and good hearted forum population at large here!!

My experience with shipping or recieving big items is: DHL is the worst . . . the local carrier delivered a correctly addressed 12' tube with a $300.00 studio backdrop inside to a "close but no cigar" address up the street from me. House was vacant. Local office followed up on their error at seeing the address was correct on bill of lading. Backdrop was stolen from vacant house . . . gone. DHL bought me a new one. Outcome favorable, but local driver was up in the night and if it were bees or queens, they would have been toast.

When I ordered queens from the Texas Weavers, I specified Priority mail. Only 2 and they came through just fine. When I ship honey, USPS exclusivley!! Selling on eBay . . . USPS alla time. I have had wooden ware and books and other hard to break items shipped to me via UPS, and I LOVE those cool, artistic ads of late, but I am not a fan of UPS as they are just not convenient for me to use.

For smaller items, I love USPS Priority Mail . . . flat rate box only $9.50 regardless of the weight you stuff into it. Never had any claim experience with USPS, UPS or FedEx.

Wishing you good fortune, JBJ, and thanks again to the overwhelming majority of BEEKS here who are good hearted, well meaning, knowledgeable of what they "speak" and just all around fine folks! I am very happy that you all are here. JP


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

*i hate to do it too....*

ndvan>The wide difference in adjuster pay does not suggest that some are getting paid extra to deny valid claims.

i never said they denied claims, i said:
>how do they get those bonuses and benefits? by screwing people out of money they deserve and saving the company from paying the amount insured.

i don't see the word "deny" in any of my posts but this one. 

ndvan>Its not an easy job, because there is a lot of conflict and some people, like you, assume that they are crooks and treat them accordingly.

i assume they are nothing more than someone making a living off of the misfortunes of others. i don't hold it against them or any other person who makes a living off of others, myself and yourself included. again i don't see the word "crook" in any of my posts accept this one. you are the on doing the assuming, and you know what they say about making assumptions...

ndvan>Finally, even if you assume that insurers are all crooked (and they aren't) denying valid claims is bad business.

i believe i already addressed this... if you believe when they settle a claim with you that you always get your fair shake, go pay full sticker price next time you buy a car. negotiations is and will always be a part of business. if the insurance companies were 100% honest we wouldn't need lawyers to settle disputes with them, as you mentioned so many were eager to do. this is not just because they "goof" as you so eloquently put it.

WVb>i have a friend who is an adjuster and that's pretty much what he told me.

if he went around giving the full amount he could on every claim i doubt if he would be getting anymore bonuses, or a check for much longer for that matter. i'm not lying when i tell you this. what do i need to do, swear on a bible? i appreciate all the points you made, and i would expect nothing less from someone who gets paid to argue.

UtahBeek>The attorneys my family and I have known are wonderfull people to be around

i have four close friends who are attorneys and i agree. i don't know how many brews we've sat over at the local pub watching games and bsing. we were all sickened by watching wvu's performance last friday....

JBJ, i hope the info i sent about contacting UPS's headquarters in atlanta helps you recoup your losses.


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

you've probably gotten too much advise already, but I'll offer one more.

Other people have advised of filing a small claims court case. 

I have had good luck going this route, sometimes with a twist. The problem with the small claims court is that it costs like $168 to file a claim, and it is hard to justify spending more money when youa re out a bunch already. 

I have gotten all the forms to fill out to file the case, filled them all out, BUT DON'T ACTUALLY file it yet.

Send a certified return receipt letter demanding payment within 10 days or you'll file the claim(Include a copy of all the forms). They might see how serious you are in that you've already done all the work and it is only another $.42 to mail it in. 

Sometimes they'll pay up rather than fight further. If not, then go ahead and file the claim.

Good luck.


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## huggy (Jun 23, 2007)

Ok, I'll just add my two cents (some of my own experience) when dealing with issues like this. I am a consumer, not a lawyer. But I have had similar experiences and have had most of them resolved satisfactorily. Luckily, where I live now (middle of Maine) there don't seem to be too many problems with all the shippers I have used thus far, but most of that is on the receiving end. When I need to ship, I head to a shipping and packaging store.

No matter what you do, in order to be successful in court (if it gets that far), you have to have made good faith efforts to contact the company and get it resolved. That pretty much means you follow it through as far and as long as you have to until they will no longer work with you. And in most cases that means you also have to act at least civilly in dealing with people. Note I did not say you can't act upset. Often if I'm hopped up when calling someone, I'll tell them something like, "I'm sorry if I come across angry at you - that is not my intent, but I'm very upset about this issue. I really hope you can help me." That kinda gets them in a better mood to deal with you as a person, not some screaming banshee.

I personally believe you may have something to stand on with the fact that paying for insurance for a shipment that was not coverable by that insurance means they should give you your insurance fees back. Might have to go to court to win that, however.

Tip: Make an enlargement copy of the terms document adjusting the density so you can make out the small gray text. Or scan it into your PC...

Tip: Contact a local TV or consumer advocacy group. One of those, Shame On You type groups and tell them your story. Play up the dead queens to repopulate CCD-stricken hives, etc. Your State may also have such a group. 

Tip: If you used a local shipping company, like The UPS Store, contact local BBB and Chambers of Commerce about the local shipper you used - they should be helping you get this fixed. Local businesses don't like bad press, either.

Tip: Make a YouTube (or utube) video about it and blast it all over the place. Be factual, animated, and funny at times. Sometimes those seem to also take off and get large companies to sit up and take notice. Maybe you could dress up as Santa in it and show the dead queens when you open the present... (ooo, I'm bad tonight) of course this would be a last resort thing...

Keep us informed and I wish you the best of luck.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*response and apology to wvbeek*

wv said:

>i assume they are nothing more than someone making a living off of the misfortunes of others. i don't hold it against them or any other person who makes a living off of others, myself and yourself included. again i don't see the word "crook" in any of my posts accept this one. you are the on doing the assuming, and you know what they say about making assumptions...

Two thoughts about that:

1. I suggest that you might look at it less cynically. Adjusters (and doctors and lots of other folks), when they do their jobs properly, make their money trying to make bad situations better.

2. Sorry if I tried to put words in your mouth or made assumptions about what you do or think. I was out of line in that respect.

Okay, I'm gonna shut up now. 

ndvan


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

ndvan, i too apologize to you or anyone on here who might feel slighted by any of my comments. i am really not a cynical person though i do sound somewhat cynical at times.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

No need to apologize to me. No offense taken.

ndvan


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Strangely quiet on the UPS front. Last word I got was that the matter was being referred to someone higher up the food chain, which sounded ...at first... like an improvement from their previous position of "tough luck " for me.

This has been dragging on for over a month, it is probably time to move to the next step and ratchet up the pressure.

Thanks all for the tips and feedback, something has to give soon.


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## ooptec (Jul 16, 2007)

*I quit UPS*

I quit using UPS due to the fact they charge a $40 brokerage fee for shipments from US to Canada.

The USPS or Canada Post do not so I ship everything thru them. They are cheaper, do overnight and I haven't been disappointed yet and I do a fair volume (for a private guy lol)

cheers

peter


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

*Crimminal act?*

Well, today I received a call from UPS and they said they had to stand by their denial of the claim, however they were willing to " attempt to" offer a courtesy payment of $500 for my troubles. Without going into the minutia of details, I essentially told them there was no way that was fair and they countered with $750 and the UPS associate stated that she "....needed my permission to attempt to secure" this so called courtesy payment. She insisted that legally they are not required to cover perishable items as per their terms and conditions of service. This was NOT stated in the terms and conditions on the shipping document that I signed, but is supposedly stated somewhere on their nebulous web site.

Overall, I took a friendly tact and and told the associate that I appreciate the fact that they were willing to "attempt" to take a step in the right direction and that I have concerns about the legality and ethics of billing me for a service, that they apparently and by there own account, do not provide.

This phone conversation precipitated after a rather direct email that I sent today. 

PS: I think a mere "attempt a courtesy payment" of 1/2 the claim is BS.


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## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

I'd hold off to see if you can receive more, but don't push the issue too far unless you can prove that they in fact stated that the insurance you purchased will reimburse you from losses on this type of shipment, and you notified them to what was contained in the package(s) -- that it was perishable-- as their web site states the contrary:

Shipping Live Animals

UPS provides service on a limited basis for packages containing some types of live animals. The term "animal" as used herein refers to anything living, except plants. While the list of "Accepted Live Animals" provided herein is an exhaustive list of animals that can be offered for transportation in accordance with the conditions listed, the list of "Prohibited Live Animals" is only a partial list of animals provided to clarify specific species that are not accepted for transportation and may not be shipped via UPS. Any animal not specifically listed on the "Accepted Live Animals" list is prohibited by UPS and will not be accepted for transportation. 

Packages containing live animals must be prepared in accordance with the requirements as specifically stated herein. Packages containing live animals must provide for the basic humane care and safety of the animal during transportation. *Any package containing a live animal shall be considered a perishable commodity and will be accepted for transportation solely at the shipper’s risk for any damage or loss arising from the perishable nature of the item.* *UPS shall not be liable for any special, incidental, or consequential damages.*

In the event a package containing a prohibited item is found en route or in the UPS system, that package will be stopped at the location or UPS facility of the discovery. UPS reserves the right to dispose of the package. 
Accepted / Prohibited Live Animals
*Accepted Live Animals*

This is a comprehensive list of live animals accepted for transportation. Shippers are prohibited from shipping any animal not listed here, and all other live animals will not be accepted for transportation. The following live animals are accepted for transportation unless poisonous, venomous, and/or a Threatened or Endangered Species.

*Amphibians (All):* Examples: frogs, salamanders, toads
*Crustaceans (All):* Examples: crabs, crawfish, lobsters, shrimp
*Fish (All)*
*Insects (Limited to beneficial insects only):* Examples: *bees*, butterflies, crickets, lady bugs
*Mollusks (All):* Examples: clams, mussels, snails
*Reptiles (Limited to the following):
*- Lizards: Examples: chameleons, geckos, iguanas, monitors, flying dragons
- Turtles: freshwater turtles (except: snapping turtles), land tortoises, sea turtles
*Worms (All)*


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

After thinking this over a bit, I think I would just take the settlement and run....
They likely have their butts covered in the fine print, and to pursue this legally will no doubt cost more in time and money than its worth.They would probably claim bona fide error in misleading you into thinking the queens were insured , when in fact their terms of service clearly state otherwise.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Thanks MM, I would have been nice to have seen that stated in the terms and conditions on the document I signed; it does say something to the effect of see our website for more details. The word perishable does not appear on that document. Further, if they in fact do not cover perishables how is it that they can legally find their way into my bank account and extract an insurance fee for those items, all of which the contents were clearly labeled?

The associate who suggested that I use the declared value box on their shipping form apparently still works there. It may be a challenge to prove he told me this on the phone, however I am looking through all of our Email correspondence from Sept before last they when they lost, literally lost, a package of quens


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*My 2 cents*

Hypothetically speaking (and not legal advice for your situation), if a customer told them what was being shipped, and UPS represented they were selling insurance for what they were shipping, and the contract the customer was provided did not have an exclusion for perishable items, I have a hard time seeing how anything on their web page means anything at all. They would, plain and simple, owe the claim. 

For that matter, and again hypothetically speaking, if UPS tells a customer that it is insuring a shipment, and the terms of the actual contract do not actually cover shipment, I think UPS would have problems denying the claim. They took money to provide nothing at in return. 

Some things that you could do now are: (a) as somebody else suggested, fill out the small claims forms, mail them and demand payment; (b) threaten to hire a lawyer; or (c) hire a lawyer.


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## shylock3 (Jun 8, 2006)

We sell a lot on Ebay, have tried to file a claime or 2 for damage goods. We generally get the same answer, "it wasn't packed properly". I worked for ups in my early days, I never had a chance to read a "fragil" lable. I had 2 semi trailers to unload 4: am to 8:am. The conveyer wasn't electric either, just put a box on and push. They sould be brought to task for charging insurance and then refusing to pay it.


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## R.L. Bee (Mar 8, 2006)

*Use another carrier*

The best thing to do is to stop dealing with them I know several bussinesses who have stopped shipping there goods by UPS just because of there damaged goods and not paying for them.


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

*Ups*

Wow nice humming thread here folks.


Good luck JBJ


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

I have never ever shipped anything via UPS....not going to now. Plus from what I have seen, they are very expensive.

I needed to have 150 pounds of beekeeping equipment shipped about 600 miles to me.... DHL was a third of the price and the experience was wonderful....the tank and stand arrived quickly and in perfect shape.

However, I do have to say, the person that packed it did a wonderful job!


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## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

*claims*

well I can say any one wanting to handle my claim I'll split the refund almost 2000.00 I got all the paper work. any takers?
UPS needs to pay if they accept your money in good faith I think.

Don


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*questions*

Did this shipment involve shipment on an airplane or strictly on the ground? I did a little legal research. If this was a ground shipment only, then your recovery would be strictly limited to the claimed value of the goods shipped, due to a specific federal law (49 USC 14706). However, that would not apply if there was a shipment by air. I have not done totally complete legal research, but I also do not see that this federal law would give UPS a defense if it agreed to compensate you for the loss of the goods for a specific amount of money.

Please provide that detail. Man, I wish you lived in Oklahoma, and I'd sign you up for free. This deal is driving me nuts. It drives me nuts to see companies not do the right thing. 

ndvan


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

It was an in state next day delivery so it may have been ground, however I am not sure.

Thanks everybody, I appreciate the input and support.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I had 2 UPS shipments of queens this spring shipped to me next day delivery(104 each) from a breeder 150 miles away, here in Cal. The tracking number showed it was put on a plane and sent a couple hundred miles south, then sent back north!
The queen breeder said thats what they do.
I don't know how long they keep this info up on there website.


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## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

*ndvan*

I had 2 shipments one ground with 10 nuc's and 1 shipment next day air. the 10 nuc's cost 750.00 for next day service.

Don


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

*latest update*

Here is the latest correspondence in response to their associates offer to "attempt" a courtesy payment of $500. Notice that only an attempt on a courtesy payment is offered, she was clear that there was no guarantee of this actually happening.


Mr. Cardenas and company,

I am writing you in response to a call I just received from your associate stating your position on this claim. First of all, I would like to give you a little background pertinent to this situation. In September of 2006 your organization completely lost a package of queens and your associate D. L. Stewart was assigned to my case. Mr. Stewart notified me that I should have filled out the declared value field for insurance on the standard shipping form and consequently I was out of luck and that UPS would only cover the first $100 of every package shipped without the declared value section being filled out. Subsequently in 2007, I took Mr Stewart's advice and filled out the declared value field on every shipment of queen bees this year and our account was directly billed for insurance on each clearly labeled package of queens. Your assistant, whom I just got of the phone with, informed me that the insurance available on standard shipping form does not cover perishable items, despite what Mr Stewart may have told me.

I would like to make very clear that the contents of these packages were definitely known by the four UPS stores, pick up personnel, and even your pilots and truck drivers. Some of your pilots even refused to fly with the queens and all UPS counter personnel who scanned the shipping and insurance form always commented the unusually noisy, lively contents.

In summary, my business bank account was directly billed by UPS for insurance on clearly labeled packages of queen bees that by your own admission, you do not provide coverage for. Beyond being misled by Mr. Stewart, you accepted and received payment for insurance on our clearly labeled queen bee shipments. The legality and ethics of accepting payment for a service that you in fact do not provide is a very questionable act and I consider it a poor customer/public relations tool and criminal.

Your associate, with whom I just spoke on the phone, has informed me that UPS does offer a special insurance for perishable items that is not available on the standard shipping form. This sounds like a great service and I would consider using and promoting this option to my colleagues in our industry pending a favorable resolution of our current situation.

Most sincerely,
John Jacob
President Southern Oregon Beekeepers Association
Executive Board Member, Oregon State Beekeepers Association
CEO, Old Sol Enterprises


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

JBJ,
I'm curious. Why the mention of your titles and association connections. I'm not sure what I would think if the president of the Pennsylvania bee association would use his position for personal interest and business dealings. It seems that this is a contract dispute between you and another party, and one not involving the state association.

I can see your efforts as helpful too many others. But having every member of an organization use the association as some tool for personal issues and personal gain has me questioning this. I think when one assumes the elected office of any club, association, or organization, the use of the title and postion is for the organizations use, approval, and benefit. Not personal legal issues or personal interest.

Maybe I'm off on this. I don't know.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

I had shared your thoughts up to a point. Upon further consideration I feel that it is my responsibility to work in every capacity available to me for the betterment of beekeeping. Further, I wanted to be clear that they are not dealing with some lonely isolated farmer.

This is beyond a personal issue in my opinion. The ability to efficiently and safely ship and receive queens is pertinent to the survival of our entire industry.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*My thoughts*

Good letter, JBJ. I agree with you that this goes beyond you and your claim. 

ndvan


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

I think anyone that holds an office in an association such as a beekeeping association has a responsibility to keep his or her personal affairs mutually exclusive from those of the beekeeping association.

I think by involving the association directly or indirectly that association may also become liable for the actions of the individual. Then again, maybe not. If the constituency of the association hasn't agreed to take up a particular cause, the individual needs to keep the association out of the fray. I don't imagine the association would appreciate being named in a lawsuit. The financial implications of just being named in a lawsuit are bad enough.

Also, could it be interpreted that an individual is attempting to blackmail if that individual were to infer that certain "associations" were backing his position? You know, an attempt to force someone to do something that they wouldn't ordinarily do because of pressure? I don't know. Thoughts?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I'm with ndvan,

this is an issue that effects all beekeepers, pointing out that you represent many is a good thing
I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks you were treated fairly
if the members of your association think you're out of line you won't be re-elected next year, I'd be surprised if that happens

Dave


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## nsmith1957 (Sep 7, 2006)

Just an opinion, If he wins the claim I would be concerned with "who" gets the "money". If the case is filed in the association's name then any funds recieved would be the "property" of the association.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

nsmith1957 & Jeffzhear	

Just to be clear, no lawsuit has been filed by anyone at this particular junction. 

The bylaws of our (SOBA orOSBA) constitution of not been violated in any fashion.

It is a common practice to sign letters with your credentials.

Lastly, nowhere in that letter is there any attempt to formally involve any organization. I happen to hold the position that I do and am free to list my credentials on any letter to anyone I write. If I do end up needing either organizations assistance in this matter or any other I would have no problem soliciting there support.

I am confident that UPS will resolve this matter in a reasonable manner and that they look forward to fairly and properly serving the beekeeping community in the future.


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## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

John, I hope your dispute gets resolved in a manner which is beneficial to both you and UPS. After all is said and done, perhaps this will open UPS's eyes to problems with their shipping documents, insurance policies and staffing -- and that they fix those problems. Sometimes all it takes to change policies is a case such as yours - unfortunately you are the one who has gotten stuck in the middle. Please keep us informed as to the outcome --

MM


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## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

JBJ said:


> It is a common practice to sign letters with your credentials.
> QUOTE]
> 
> JBJ The statement concerning using your credentials is correct, but is membership or offices held considered a credential. If you have been awarded a Master Beekeeper that would be a credential.
> ...


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## carbide (Nov 21, 2004)

I have to agree with Bjornbee on the use of credentials in dealing with UPS in this particular case. If the bees had been shipped by the association, then an officer of the association has the right and the duty to use their title or position in the association as a reference when dealing wiht UPS. 

Since the bees were actually sent by a private individual (or CEO of a company) the only credentials that should be used on the letter are those credentials relative to the company doing the shipping.

A few years ago I was president of the Greater Pittsburgh Rider Motorcycle Club. Some of our members (including myself) pulled trailers behind our motorcycles. The toll charge for the Pa turnpike for a motorcyclist pulling a trailer was dependant upon the toll taker who was on duty when you exited the turnpike. Some toll takers would charge you the same rate as an automobile, and others would charge you the rate as an automobile pulling a trailer. One of our members was even detained by a Pa state tropper because he refused to pay the added charge that a toll taker wanted him to pay.

As the president of the club I mailed a letter to the director of the turnpike asking for a clarification of the tolls to be charged. Using my position as president, concerning a matter relative to our club members, it was correct to use my credentials in the letter that I sent. If however, I had been the only one charged with the extra toll it would not have been correct for me to do so.

I believe the matter with UPS is simply one beekeeper fighting one shipper and should not be represented otherwise.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

*An amicable resolution imminent.*

It sounds like a satisfactory resolution is quite possible very soon.

"I believe the matter with UPS is simply one beekeeper fighting one shipper and should not be represented otherwise." Yesterday 01:33 PM carbide

I would have to agree with you on that, however I do intend to share my experience with any that are interested in shipping or receiving queens.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

John,
If your club allows you to do what your doing, I guess that's for them to decide.

I would object for any member of a club or organization I belong, to comment as you did...
>>>I happen to hold the position that I do and am free to list my credentials on any letter to anyone I write.<<<<

I will note, that this is a public forum. With many members, many visitors, and with a broad reach into the beekeeping community. In particular, what a great way for you to promote your club and state association by allowing beekeepers from Oregon to see, and perhaps make contact with an officer of an association they may not of been aware of. But you don't use these same so-called credentials as your sign off, at the end of each post. You use your personal business website, and choose to promote that instead. And while there is nothing wrong with that, I hope you see where waiting til your same business has "problems', and then selectively using your titles to help you out for personal gain and for your businesses advantage, seems at least a tad bit "off" so to speak.

I did not start my question about this to dump on anyone. I knew what I thought of the matter, and wanted to see how others felt. I personally think that use of any club or association position should be for the benefit of that same association. Your comment that you can use it anytime "you see fit", has me glad that I don't see the same thing with the clubs I belong too.

Maybe you can use these "credentials" to promote your associations like how you use your sign-off (website) , and then the next time, you can at least say you use them all the time, not just when it seems to benefit you.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Bjorn, would you find if less objectionable if I had just stated I just stated that I was a "member" of these organizations or would it be out of bounds to list any affiliations at all?? 

What if I singed off "Beesource contributor"? Which affiliations would you include on the "off" list?

It seems very irrational that just because one may have a leadership role in a particular group that one should somehow be morally prevented from listing their affiliations.

Lastly, the net result of this affair will benefit anybody who ships or receives queens. You can bet that UPS will have clarified their procedures and insurance protocols for queens and perhaps save some queens and heartache for many beekeepers the near future.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*I'm still with JBJ on this one*

I don't think UPS or anybody else would read that letter and think that JBJ is writing on behalf of the organizations cited. I think UPS oughta get the idea that he TALKS TO a whole bunch of people (potential UPS customers). I think it is appropriate to send that message and to demonstrate that he's not just some voice in the wilderness.

ndvan


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

JBJ, Please keep us posted if you come to resolution with UPS. They are losing a lot of good will over this issue.

I know I won't use them for bee's or queens unless I hear they've made this right with you.


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## Columbiacritter (Oct 19, 2007)

*Long experience with UPS*

I'm in an industry that uses UPS heavily and I'll tell you in the last 15 yrs I've seen less than 10% of claims against UPS resolved to the customers satisfaction. We've had boxes come in smashed flat with boot prints all over them but UPS says we have to prove it wasn't in that condition when it was shipped. About 2 months ago we had a customer finally get a delivery over 8 months late!!! No explanation at all from UPS. 

If I'm shipping anything personally I'll pay the extra for Fed Ex or go USPS if I don't need it there in a hurry..


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## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

*It happens*



Columbiacritter said:


> If I'm shipping anything personally I'll pay the extra for Fed Ex or go USPS if I don't need it there in a hurry..


It can happen with any shipping company. I remember well the time when we were working overtime to meet a very strict deadline at an engineering company which I worked for many moons ago...

We were expecting a package via FedEx on Christmas eve day, and it never arrived - we needed the package in order to get the project completed, and out the door. It had been snowing, and the driver reported that he was en route, so my boss decided to drive down the road to check to see that the driver was not in a ditch, or some such... Well, my boss arrived a half hour later with the rolled up tube of plans, which looked like it had been driven over by a couple of Sherman tanks. He was driving down the road, when he spotted the tube in the drive of a neighborhood watering hole... It appears that the driver had stopped for some holiday cheer...

MM


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I am getting a package together to mail. Its over the 70 pound limit at USPS, so I stopped at the nearest UPS store yesterday. I never mailed anything from this UPS store and just wanted the basics and have some questions answered.

After getting my package info, I mentioned about sending queens and bees. The manager (owner??? are these UPS stores franchised?) said no way! He does not mail any live animal....period!

I wanted to discuss why I had received many UPS shipments from other beekeepers, and why he would not ship them. But there was alot of people there, and I thought another day, when he was not so hectic, may produce better results.

Are these UPS stores franchised or individually owned where they can dictate what they do or what service they will or will not provide?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I mentioned about sending queens and bees. The manager (owner??? are these UPS stores franchised?) said no way! He does not mail any live animal....period!

I called both the local UPS and the national office and got that same answer. But I've had packages shipped to me by UPS..... Beats me....


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

*Claim settled!*

Received word this evening that UPS intends to settle for the full insured amount.

Much thanks for all of your support and advice out there on Beesource. 

It is very late for much posting and I am on the road for tomorrow but there are some interesting thoughts and observations that I would like to comment on soon.

This has been a very enlightening experience.


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## carbide (Nov 21, 2004)

Congratulations! It feels pretty good to finally win one, don't it? Hopefully they'll not take a month or two to make the settlement. It's just too bad that you had to lose the queens in the first place.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Great news!


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## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

Congratulations
I bet they change some procedures for handling bee's now


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