# My Little Queen Cells Experiment



## SouthTexasJohn (Mar 16, 2015)

Hmmm. I hope that one day, I will understand what all this means as I want to try to keep just a few extra queens on hand....


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Doing it is easy. Understanding the process is the hard part. Read Mike
Palmer's method on the sticky post here at the top.

Yep, I answer my own questions.
I'll do it this way the next time for some big well nourished queens.
Only 1 day on the comb and the cells size is almost 1.5 times longer than the plastic
cup. And all full of RJ than on the graft bar. Three more days to go before they are cap. 
As if not enough I brushed in another 3 frame of young nurse bees to see if they will increase the Rj production and the length on these cells.
This is possible on limited bee resource without sacrificing the honey production.
It is almost like a bee bomb right now. Thanks to Mike Palmer for his wisdom. 

The results so far:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

More editing, eh.

Cells so far:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I check on the hive on 4/23 to see the status of the cells.
All 11 are capped now. All are well fed too in the Rj production plastic cups.
That means moving the cells onto the comb to better feed them was the right move.
If I would of left these cells on the graft bar they could be smaller in size by now.
We'll see what these queens will look like later on. Hope they hatch!

Good peanut size cells:


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## SouthTexasJohn (Mar 16, 2015)

How many colonies do you have?


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Next time could you leave half of the cells on the graft bar and half on frames to get an actual comparison?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

This hive is headed by an after the solstice queen from last year. She has build 2 deeps already for this
experiment.

As I experimented more without killing more queens now than a few years ago, I
learn that without a crowded hive seeming with young nurse bees there is a limitation on how
long the cells will be. Or how much Rj got deposited using a graft bar. This already been confirmed from last year's queen experiment. That is why this year
I have to improve more on my queen raising method. Rj deposit is the key here. 
It is not how long or short the cells are because the queen larvae can only feed so much before it turn into a pupae. 
There are 2 queen cells that I on purpose set aside but did not post it here. This 2 cells are my control for this experiment. They are a bit shorter than the 
rest of the other cells but all well fed with Rj deposit inside. The Rj collection queen cups help with this process by holding more Rj deposited too. 
So my next step is to make an extra row of cell holder next to the frame of bees for my graft from builder to finisher. This I believe should keep the cells
well feed from beginning to the end. You can improve on my method too. It only makes sense that the cells
closer to the bees on the frame is better than the cells on the graft bar with a small cluster of bees feeding them. On limited bees resource this is how I would do it but
on a bee bomb nuc it doesn't matter much using the graft bar. Imagine a cell comb frame with empty slots that can be reuse every year to hold these cells on grafting day full of
young nurse bees. Yep, it can be done with limited bee resources.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I like the idea of distributing the load of the feeding work over more nurse bees. I'll try this, moving the QC's 2 days after grafting into queen less 10-frame nuc's primed 10 days earlier with 8 frames of brood (and fed a patty & 1:1 syrup), no more than 10 QC's each, then plant 2 QC's in each 3-frame mating nuc 10 days after grafting.

Thanks for the idea.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

When you can time it well and make sure there is no developing larvae to
compete with the grafted cells when you put them in then they will be well fed for sure. Knowing this
concept will help them tremendously.
My timing is perfect because I only put in capped frames that emerged before the cells are put in. Only
1/2 frame of open drone larvae that are all capped by the time I put in the grafted cells. Because I did not
use the worker larvae there is no chance for them to make the roque queens. Why not try a frame of drone larvae instead.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Check on the cells yesterday and today. One queen inside the cell was making a buzzing noise when
I touched the plastic cup and moved her into the plastic cage. 
None hatch yet. Some still inside their plastic cages. They are schedule to be hatch this Thursday. 
But the one that hatch early may kill off the other one. Busy making the 3-way mating nucs out of the deep supers today. It is a challenge
indeed with limited bee resources to use.
Should be ready tomorrow to install these cells. Almost all except one cell still has the white Rj still in it. All the other cells 
have the brown out Rj at the bottom of the cup. Some queen are moving inside the cell already. I anticipate a high hatch rate this time.
Need to get 4 more plastic cages to house the other 4 cells if I want to save them all. They're still on the cell bar now. 
Then I can pick and choose which one to use along with the Corvodan color if there is any. Lucky me!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Good news and bad news today.

The good news is one virgin queen hatched one day earlier than schedule on the cell bar. By the time I bought 4 more plastic queen cages home
it was too late. The bad news is she ordered the bees to tore down another queen cell next to her after she hatched. Another virgin tried to hatch from the cage but failed to emerge with her tongue sticking out and died. This one has the lighter color same as the pics. What kind of bee do you think she is from the pics? 
I was busy making the last mating nucs to hive them. After the mating nucs are finished I break down the
deep hive below with the bees to put these caged q-cells in. 2 frame of bees to each division in the 3-way deep mating nucs along with 1 or 2 caged cells. 
I left the virgin queen that hatched first in her original deep hive with 3 frames of comb and her own bees. The old queen where I got my graft larvae from also has 3 frames of
comb with all the foragers to rebuild. I also put a small jar of syrup in each division slot and 2 small patties to feed these nucs. Still waiting for the rest of the queens to hatch maybe by this Friday.


First virgin that hatched:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

An update: With the 8 cells remaining today, 2 still not hatch yet. Maybe they are the younger larvae that I grafted. I will check on them 
again tomorrow. We have 6 virgins hatched inside the plastic cages today. Of the 6, two are the Italians color and 4 are the Cordovan color. This
brings the total number of Cordovans to 5 now. I hived all the Cordovans in their mating nucs. They appeared healthy and prolific running around
their cages. But they cannot fly yet as seen from the pics that one running up my sleeve and glove. Big, well fed and pretty! Yep, they are fast too. Cannot express my
joy and excitement enough. Stay tuned for another update soon.


Hatched virgins today:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, the last of the 2 caged cells hatched today. One is dead because the cap that plug into the cage opening fell off inside the hive that
already has a virgin. So they fought each other I am sure. The remaining Cordovan hatched inside the cage and I hived it in a stronger than usual 2 frame nucs today.
So I have 6 Cordovans and 2 Italians virgins now. Hey, 8 of 11 is not too shabby, eh.
They are more than happy to accept a newly hatched a few hours virgin. They just walk inside the frame without
any issue. I also took some pics of the Cordovan that I nuced yesterday.
She is a beauty alright. A decent body size and yellow/whitish Cordovan color! Next is their mating flight in about a week or so.
We have very nice warm weather now good for the virgin's mating flight. How many do you think will return to lay?


Yesterday's virgin and today's last nuc:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

beepro said:


> Yesterday's virgin and today's last nuc:


Con't w/pics


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Update:

Remember that I caged the 2 virgin queens inside the nuc hive with one roaming virgin queen?
After 3 days they went in and tore up their wings and killed both of them. Humm, never to allow a
caged virgin inside a nuc with another roaming virgin. So 2 went down! Then one Cordovan virgin went away. Cannot
find her anywhere and the bees flew back to their original hive. Another one gone!
Now I still have 5 Cordovan color virgin queens waiting for them to go on their mating flight. This is good as I'm running out of
bee frames to make anymore mating nucs. 

The dead tore up virgin queen:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Oops, I goofed up again!

Thinking that I can add more nurse bees from another hive to increase the nuc population while waiting
for the virgins to take their mating flight, I added a frame of bees from another hive into each nuc. All 3 virgins except one that I did
not add the extra bees into got balled by the bees. I caged all the virgins inside the mini jzbz cage again without the excluder slot remove. 
Now what are my options to rescue these virgins as their mating flight time is getting closer every day now?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It has been more than a week since they hatched. At this time they should be going to their mating flight. This balling
stop them from what they needed to do.

So I did a drastic move today. Got a bottle of HFC syrup and poured it all over the frame of bees and the virgin queen.
This idea came from a post somewhere I read here awhile ago. The poor virgins all gooey from the syrup. No more beautiful hair.
All the 4 nucs that balled on the virgin queens got the same treatment. Immediately they were all cleaning up the syrup and
licking the queen as she walk on the frame after I released her. Do you thing this should stop the balling of the virgins?


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

hello Beepro, 

i love your little experiment. i belive this is the only way to learn, and a lot of beekeepers are to "busy " to even look into experimenting stuff like this. i did it when i was a boy, my dad would let me do stuff like this, as long as i was also helping with the rest of the bee work  

i will start a graft this weekend, just for the hell of it. i will try to film, and take pictures and if i remember to do so i will post them up here on the forum. 

next time, i would suggest to you caging your cells 1 day after they cap them. that way when they hatch they will be caged and not kill eachother. first thing a virgin does, is feed, and then kill rivals. there will always be one or 2 that will hatch 1 day early. and at the same time, in a regular hive, swarming or changing the queen, they will also have a couple of later stage cells, that way if these do not mate, than they will still have a chance to have a mother. i do belive that they have somehow the ability to postpone the development of some eggs, because i have seen situations where i can't explain how after 10 days of me taking their queen away, they still had a few eggs laying around for some queen cells, and they worked. they do some amazing things. 

the way i do it is, i will go to my bee yard, and i will take 3 frames of capped brood, one frame of honey, and my cell bar frame. i will put this in a 5 frame nuc. on top of this i will mostlikely shake 3 more frames of bees, so i will have my 5 frame box full to the rimm with bees. the 3 frames, i will pull from 3 different himes, and the same goes for the 3 frames i shake in there. ( usually i take 2 frames from 3 hives, and do my starter.

i will take them home, leave my cell bar frame in the hive, and leave them sitting for 3 days. i will open it up in 3 days, check to make sure there is no queen. you do that by looking for eggs, (any egs that the doner hive had, should be 1 day larva by now) or if i open up and they have queen cells everywhere, then i know. i kill all of those cells. you can use them if you want, but i want to graft my select queen, si i will kill all of those. sometimes, i will graft at the same time with the making of the nuc , but usually i will wait at least 2 days. 
after i kill all the queen cells in the nuc, i will pull my frame of cell cups out of the hive, and also my frame of doner eggs, i usually go under a tree ( and because i have good eyes ) i will graft my 30 cell cups. you can prime them with RJ, but what i do is warm sugar water siroup. after i grafted, i will place the frame back in the hive, and i will feed. nut much, maybe 1 liter of siroup. i use a botle feeder. goes in the entrance and i can see when it's empty and take it off. 

i check my queens after 1 week, to see what the take is. by that time they should e almost capped, so i will put cell protectors on them. i count my days, and 3 days before they should hatch, i go in there and recount my cells and cap the cell protectors. usually by this time you lost some more cells, so the ones that are left are good. the same day i will go out there and make whatvere no of queens i have left 3 frame nucs. 2 brood, and 1 honey. 3 days later i go get my queens, i leave 1 virgin in the raising nuc, and i will introduce the rest in the new nucs i just made, making sure i kill all their cells. at the same time, i give them some siroup, and let them eat her out of the cage. i will chek on them in 10 days, to give her time to mate and do her thing. some will not make it, and those ones i just add to the ones that have less bees, but a good queen working. 
this is how i usually do it. i did it last year, but this year, my first nucs were made using natural selection. i just devided them , and let them work it out. i checked 1 month later, out of 20, 2 only did not had a working queen, but i had seen virgins so i will go check this weekend and see what is going on there. i hope that after the honey flow, i will have enough to make another 10 nucs, that will grow and be ready for this winter.

have a great apicultural summer. 
Radu


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

This brings my little queen rearing project to a conclusion:

Apparently the HFCS queen dipping method works, they manage to released the queens from balling. Somehow she
got mated and laying again. More eggs seen today and some capped broods already. This queen is a keeper for her
nice laying and brood pattern. I only keep the best queen from this project. So it is true that a local well fed queen is always
better than the ones bought from the commercial queen bee farm. At least the cell and queen quality is better that I can control. 
In conclusion, it is possible to raise a few good queens even when you have only a box of bees. With the proper
management you too can raise some quality well fed queens for your own apiary. I have done it and so can you!


The final result:


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