# wax mold?



## wpoley (Oct 20, 2013)

He is silicon glueing the plastic foundation to both boards.Then when dry he peels the plastic foundation from the boards and now has silicon mold.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I thought it was wax foundation where he could melt it out of the mold. I can't see how he would be able to get the silicone to release from plastic if it is mounted to a board.

He didn't show it but maybe he cures one side first and peals it then does the other side.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The only way for me to understand this process is to try to build one. I had watched this clip 4x's and with a coworker who
has little clue of what's going on. So it is up to us beekeepers or someone who had built one to figure it all out.
Ace, silicone is easily removed from the plastic foundation once they're dry as seen from the other clips too. Yes, the same with the wax foundation to peel all the way off the boards while destroying the wax too. So both of you maybe correct. But I did not see the destroyed wax foundation leaving the assumption that the plastic foundation is used. Now which one is the real one to use in this process. 
So my guess would be that the gluing of the plastic foundation to the boards and then covered them with more silicone is to create a gap for the hot wax to harden once the boards are closed. That is why the silicone is thinly spread out to cover the entire foundation cells. A wax foundation is too thin/fragile to work with in this process. Then once the silicone had dry he peeled the first layer of silicone off the plastic foundation to expose the yellow plastic foundation and the clean cells. <<-- Even this assumption I am not sure about because the finished product has yellow color and not the white color of the silicone on the boards??? So is my assumption correct that he use the plastic foundation and then peel off the first layer of silicone from the foundation while leaving the 2nd layer of silicone glued to the boards along with the foundation? And what language or country is this clip from anyways? Maybe I can email him to ask questions too. Thanks for helping though.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You typically need two things when you make silicone molds. A vacuum chamber and an oven. The vacuum chamber pulls out the bubbles so you don't get imperfections in your mold surface. The heat cures the silicone. Without heat it would take months to cure in the center if it cured at all. I did not see any vacuum chamber. I did see an oven in the process.

Even if he used a release agent getting the mold separated the first time will be difficult. Imagine a suction cup that size. If one side was done first you can peal the plastic foundation out of the silicone very easily. Then you could remount the foundation to the side you just made to do the other side. If it were wax foundation you can do both sides and melt the wax out after the silicon cures. The only problem would be if the silicon needed heat to cure.

Now when you actually go to mold the wax foundation you may get that entrapped air problem again. And again separating the mold without breaking up the wax foundation could be more difficult than you think. Typically a silicone mold in not mounted to something rigid. That makes it easy to peal the silicone off of what you molded. I see a lot of pitfalls in that video. I wouldn't view it as something that has all the bugs out.


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

i have watched many on youtube, the method is two boards one foundation and tubes of silicone sealant,smear the foundation first to get silicone into all the cells then smear onto board and fit onto foundation , turn over leaving foundation on top smear silicone to fill cells and smear board and place on top, leave for couple of days in a warm area to set most of the silicone and place into warm oven this melts the wax causing a separation of the two plates and cures the silicone hope that helps, have made one myself but not always 100% perfect you might have to it a few times to get a perfect cast good luck


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

yeogi, how do you strip the mold from the foundation without breaking it?


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

in the oven if you see in the video he cures the silicone on low heat to cure, and brings up the heat to melt the foundation out and to separate, you will see small amounts in one or two cells on the corner that has still got wax on


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

That is not what I am asking. When you make the foundation from the mold you created how do you separate the mold without destroying the wax foundation?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Ace, I think it is impossible to not ruin the wax foundation on removal because
the silicone already glued to it on both sides. The releaseing agent spray can be use but it is an additional
cost. Look at it from another angle, if you can duplicate many more wax foundation from this finished mold
then why need to look at a destroyed wax foundation or not from the made mold? In another word, one wax
foundation got destroyed to make many hundreds or possible thousandths more, right. 
Thanks for providing a clearer picture of this process. Now I understand it more of the how to. 
Do you know what is the low and then the later high temperature for the curing process in the oven?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You are still not getting the picture. I am talking about the hundreds maybe thousands (doubtful the mold will last) pieces of foundation that this mold is suppose to produce. It has the same problem of separation that the original form has. With a plastic injection mold you physically make the part stick to one half of the mold and then drive it out of the other half with pins. In this application you have two identical silicone molds. In this case some of the foundation will stick to one halve and some will stick to the other when you try to remove it. The only thing I can think of that may help the situation is wax shrinkage. It might be that the wax shrinks away from both halves when it solidifies. Maybe someone that has done this can chime in.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I can't say for foundation casting specifically. but compressed air has been proven to be a good method of releasing with silicon molds. They make ready made hobby scale silicon mold kits now. You have to take measures to avoid bubbles in the surface of the mold. the rest of the mold body does not matter.
Most of my experience with silicone molds and casting has been with acrylics. Mold release is pretty standard requirements.

By the way the molds cure just fine without heat.

A source for a fair amount of information concerning both mold making and casting that I know of is at penturners.org They have been at it for quite a few years now.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Some other thoughts. there are things that wax does not stick to. or I could say things that will not stick to wax. CA glue is one of them. In fact in making pens it is common to cote bushings tools and other parts with wax to prevent CA from getting stuck to everything you don't want it on. It is also common for penturners to make their own bushings out of certain plastics that CA also will not stick to. I cannot say for sure if there are plastics that woudl be similar in regard to waxes. Might be taking a look at. What I am thinking is a coat or three of CA on the foundation then cast your silicon so there is a sheet of CA between the mold and the wax foundation. Take care in application of the CA though it gets hot as it cures. to thick and it gets hot enough to burn.

Anyway might be fruitful to do some exploration of various materials that a mold can be made of.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Acebird said:


> You typically need two things when you make silicone molds. A vacuum chamber and an oven.


A vacuum chamber has not been found to be as effective as a pressure chamber. Vacuum has shown to cause bubbles due to drawing out the air. Ruining the cast While pressure simply squishes the bubbles to small to matter. There area lot of silicon mold materials that require no heat to cure.

This sounds a bit like the same discussion that went on for years in penturning groups. It went round and round about all the pressure, vacuum, heat chambers that would be needed. Finally someone set up a paint pot and started casting. Now everyone and their uncle does it. Pretty impressive for being nearly impossible. Should be getting hundreds of people killed and polluting the environment in the process.

I agree that getting bees wax to release from silicon may be a very big problem. Wouldn't know until I tried it though. Just how bad does beeswax stick to silicone?


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

Mist the mold with a solution of water and dish washing liquid before pouring in the molten wax, works very well. Vegetable oil works on the metal parts.

other options
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NT0XXqwZhE


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> A vacuum chamber has not been found to be as effective as a pressure chamber. Vacuum has shown to cause bubbles due to drawing out the air.


For industrial application, those under the realm of OSHO, use silicone formulations that have a temperature sensitive initiator to cause the curing. That way they have time to prepare the silicone. It is mixed in a container then put in a vacuum to remove the air. Of course it foams. This is removed and then the silicone is poured and then baked. No bubbles, absolutely none. This is all done in an approved room with the proper ventilation. Many things that you use silicone molds for involve heat. Foundation is a good example. If you have air bubbles in the mold even the ones you can't see they will expand due to heat and create imperfections in your finished piece. No one in industry would use pressure to squeeze the bubbles. You have to remove them first.
Even your common Home Depot silicone will cure faster with heat and it needs moisture from the air. The moisture has to pass through the wood. That is a slow process. If the silicone isn't fully cured in the center of the mold you will have a mess. Adding a cup of water to the oven when you are baking (under 147 degrees of course) might help.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Stephenpbird said:


> Mist the mold with a solution of water and dish washing liquid before pouring in the molten wax, works very well. Vegetable oil works on the metal parts.


Do you know what the computer fan is for?


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

air cooling, don't think it will help much. The water cooled models work best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x0LIrejPLI


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

It looks like the fan is cooling the top mold platten so that side releases first, as you can see he uses his air there first.
Johno


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

mould release agent for wax you can use water and milk about 50/50 or slightly more milk is fine

ps use air gun to release finished sheet


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Stephenpbird said:


> air cooling, don't think it will help much. The water cooled models work best.


Why isn't the mold made to the size you need so you don't have to trim?


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

This is very interesting so I looked on youtube at the many ways foundations is made. All I can say for this method is you can use your own wax and save some money. But it seems the process takes at least a couple of minutes per sheet. Also unless you roll each sheet it will be very brittle. So say I can make 30 sheets and hour and I think that is being generous, plus that's not counting the screw ups that will happen, that's $33 and hour. I can work a few hours of overtime and buy it and not have the head aches. 
Although it is a novel idea.

Greg


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Why isn't the mold made to the size you need so you don't have to trim?


They are made to size, maybe folks use mediums and deeps so buy /make a press for deeps and trim down for mediums 

http://www.ebay.de/sch/pavels2012/m...l_Landwirtschaft&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

There are quite a few people selling them online in Europe


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

LanduytG said:


> All I can say for this method is you can use your own wax and save some money. Greg


Some beekeepers are concerned about the amount and types of chemicals in bought wax foundation, by making foundation with your own wax at least you know what chemicals you put in the hive/wax and can control it to a certain degree. That makes the idea a bit more than a novelty. Its not just about saving money.
:no:


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Acebird said:


> For industrial application, those under the realm of OSHO, use silicone formulations that have a temperature sensitive initiator to cause the curing. That way they have time to prepare the silicone. It is mixed in a container then put in a vacuum to remove the air. Of course it foams. This is removed and then the silicone is poured and then baked. No bubbles, absolutely none. This is all done in an approved room with the proper ventilation. Many things that you use silicone molds for involve heat. Foundation is a good example. If you have air bubbles in the mold even the ones you can't see they will expand due to heat and create imperfections in your finished piece. No one in industry would use pressure to squeeze the bubbles. You have to remove them first.
> Even your common Home Depot silicone will cure faster with heat and it needs moisture from the air. The moisture has to pass through the wood. That is a slow process. If the silicone isn't fully cured in the center of the mold you will have a mess. Adding a cup of water to the oven when you are baking (under 147 degrees of course) might help.


Sorry we are talking home brew not manufacturing. I didn't read any further.

I am not talking theoretically here. I am talking about actual practice of dozens of people already making molds and casting things. And they have found pressure to be the answer to the bubbles. Vacuum as I said destroys the mold. I don't care how some manufacturing plant does it.

As for use of pressure. you need to expand your range of methods before you claim nobody does. Stabilization uses both vacuum and pressure in it's process. As well as heat activated polymers. It is a method developed for forensic investigation purposes. It is also used in stabilization of expensive exotic woods. Basically it is casting acrylics into the cells of wood. It will also cast resins into cells of bone and tissue. rendering them stable enough for investigation measures.

So we can go on an all out exampel spree that has nothing relevant to the beekeeper trying to make foundation. Or we can talk about ways to make foundation.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Vacuum as I said destroys the mold. I don't care how some manufacturing plant does it.


A little hard headed are we? The mold isn't put in a vacuum the silicone is prior to pouring it in a mold. We are talking mold making not forensic investigation of bones. Does any beekeeper pressurize the silicone when making a mold? I don't know but if they do it will cause imperfections in the foundation when the heat of the wax expands the air bubbles. If that is what the beekeeper wants then go for it.
You should be attempting to make foundation sheets a few thousands thick not a 1/16 thick. Just because you are a beekeeper doesn't mean you should do things that are detrimental to what you want for an outcome.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Acebird said:


> A little hard headed are we?


No, keeping the conversation relevant to the audience. Car manufacturers build on assembly lines. not the way the car owner deals with cars by any means. I find your trailing off on irrelevant issues distracting and confusing. Nobody is talking about building a manufacturing plant here.

I fully realize what we are discussing. to have a mold to cast in you must first make the mold. in either case the route to go is with pressure not vacuum. Been there done that. and what you think does not line up with the reality.

No the holes do not expand in a solidified mold after it has cured. That is why you pressurized them as they set. You are lucky if you can find them at all. It is the same idea as finding bubbles in a bottle of soda before you open it. Just setting undisturbed you see no bubbles. they are in fact there. they are simply smashed, broken apart and distributed thorough the soda in such small pieces that you cannot see them. release the pressure in that bottle and they regroup and become visible.

Using vacuum is actually the exact opposite and makes that bubble forming even worse. In actual application the bubbles never stop coming. Been there done that.

Most people think the bubbles will stop once the air is removed. but it does not work that way. It just bubbles and bubbles and bubbles. I suppose there is a lot more in that resin then just air getting removed. There is also a lot more air on a microscopic level than we generally realize. Vacuum just encourages more and more of that air to expand collect and make bubbles.

Anyway you point out we are not talking forensic investigations. we are also not talking about mass production facilities. so why is my irrelevant exampel any less appropriate than yours?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

OK Daniel I will leave you in your dream world.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Molding sheets of foundation at home must not be very practical otherwise there would be more discussions on the topic. And for those who want to avoid chemicals in foundation, why not simply go foundationless? 

As for building a foundation mold / press, I would use gelcoat and reinforce the mold halves with glass cloth. Aluminum plates could easily be glassed in along with some copper tubing cooling lines. A medical "cold therapy" cooling system could be re-purposed to cool the plates... 

I would also make a press that would make two pieces of foundation at once.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

BC, I like the idea of a double wax at one time. But the stability of the press and enough 
pressure to make the wax sheet is in question. How do you propose to make this one?

Going foundation less is good too but during the Spring time they like to make drone combs instead
of the worker cells that I like they make. Going a full sheet of wax foundation will help with the worker cells.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I have been thinking about these silicone molds and wonder if just gluing a plastic sheet of foundation to each half of the mold wouldn't be easier than trying to copy the impression.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Acebird said:


> OK Daniel I will leave you in your dream world.


Go to penturners.org and read it for yourself. They have been at it for years. Most abandoned the idea of vacuum very quickly. Besides vacuum is not even an application intended to deal with removal of bubbles. Vacuum is about removing air from the cells or other voids in an object you are attempting to penetrate with your casting resins.

In regard to penturning it goes somethign like this.

Penturners primarily used to use wood as there medium. Wood has inherent characteristics that make it unsuitable for making such fine objects out of. not only that but some of the finest woods available are the least suitable to being made into a pen.

One standard treatment that could be applied to wood to make it far more suitable is called stabilization. A process that up until a few years ago required sending the wood to a processor and having it done. this required the use of both vacuum and pressure including the heat application that you speak of. This process was also relatively expensive. last I knew of it cost about $12 per lb of finished stabilized wood.

The purpose of the vacuum was to remove air from the cells of the wood. resin cannot penetrate cells that are already filled with air. You can compress that air by adding pressure. but once that pressure is release the air in the cell will simply push the resin back out. Vacuum has nothing to do with removing air from the resin itself. In fact vacuum produces excessive bubbles in the resin. They are then dealt with by the application of pressure. Once the bubbles are reduced to a size that is not visible. and the cells have been penetrated. the heat is applied to set the resin.

This is not a process that can be done at home.

Penturners had a continuous ongoing interest in developing home brew methods of stabilizing woods. some progress has been made in that regard. An aside to these efforts where discoveries in casting pen blanks from acrylic resins. Along with casting the molds to produce those blanks in. As a result acrylics have for the most part replaced wood as the medium of choice for making pens. Voids and bubbles are a serious issue throughout any cast. Many took to casting objects in the blanks as well. these objects tended to collect bubbles. So contending with bubbles became a primary concern for more than one reason. The answer was found to be pressure not vacuum.

Pretty real life for being a dream.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I have been thinking about these silicone molds and wonder if just gluing a plastic sheet of foundation to each half of the mold wouldn't be easier than trying to copy the impression.


I thought that is what they where talking about doing from the start. using a piece of plastic foundation as the object to be cast. I am also getting the impression most here have no idea of the language concerning casting either.

For example you want to cast a reproduction of an object. In this case a sheet of foundation. This would be in comparison to having a custom mold produced. Which is beyond reasonable consideration for most. I can order blank casting molds. but having them machined to a custom cast costs hundreds of dollars at least. There are other ways you can produce a custom cast and that is basically to carve or otherwise make the object yourself. This would be common in the making of jewelry for example.

Strange, but in that process they actually use wax to do the carving. they cast that wax figure in the mold material and then melt the wax out of the mold. Sort of coming full circle in a way. We want to cast wax so need some other material to make the mold from. want to cast some other object and they commonly use wax to make the object to be cast.

Okay anyway so you have the object you want to cast. you use it to make the mold. The mold is actually more difficult to make than the casts you will make later. It needs to be as perfect as possible because every imperfection will be reproduced in every object you cast in it. Also be aware that all molds have a limited life span. Silicone molds are not high on the list for longevity.

Using a sheet of plastic foundation as the object to be cast is sort of a no brainier to me.

So you have your mold. you now want to cast "Reproductions" Remember that word it makes conversations like this much easier to have. anything you cast in your mold is a reproduction of your master. the master is the original object you made a mold of.

Now how to get a mold in fine detail of your master is a long study all of it's own. in short it requires coating the object in something that will make a near perfect surface. this does not have to be a strong substance. it has to be a fine substance that fills every nook cranny and texture. You will then build on this thin layer of near perfection with stronger bulkier possibly reinforced substances. Thick layers of silicone possibly with wire reinforcements embedded in it if needed. Keep in mind silicon can only be cast so thick or you have other problems. possibly including fire. I would say an inch thick pour is pushing it.

Also keep in mind that silicon is a rubber. and it acts like rubber. it does not hold exact form real well. Not sure how much it will distort and cause weird shaped comb. You may want to pay considerable attention to adding some back bone to it.

Silicone molds also tend to develop cracks or tears in them with handling. they do not have a long life span. Heat breaks down the rubber. Detail will be lost faster than anything. For some reason I am thinking most that use them do not expect to get more than a few dozen casts from them at all.

It will be interesting to see if anyone makes any progress on this and what the results are.

This is a link to just some of the various kits available for casting with silicone
https://www.google.com/search?q=sil...rg.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=shop

Here is one for acrylic resins.
https://www.google.com/search?q=acr...rg.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=shop

results vary with what products you use. so some homework would probably go a long way in making choices.

They also are hazardous. be prepared with a respirator.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel how can I get this across to you. You do not use the vacuum in the cast stage. You use it in the mix stage which drives air into the mixture. The air has to be removed BEFORE you cast. An acrylic resin cures hard not soft and rubbery like silicone. Pressure on an acrylic resin will work because the bubble is trapped in the small state and cannot expand after the pressure is removed once cured. That is not the case with silicone rubber. The bubbles will grow back to size and even get larger when heat is applied from the hot wax.

Using silicone from a tube and not mixing may be possible without using vacuum because I suspect it has already been de-aerated after making the formulation. However squirting it out the nozzle in a zig-zag pattern will surely entrap air. This by far is the biggest mistake. One should just cut the whole top of the tube off and carefully pour it on to the impression even if it means wasting 1/2 the tube and dealing with the messy overflow.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

One could build a foundation press without knowing the correct nomenclature.

And the removal of air bubbles has zero importance because after 8 or 10 posts, most people have decided that the whole thing is a massive waste of time. 

How often do you read a thread where someone is boasting about the excellent foundation that they are making?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ace, What you do not seem to understand is that I am describing what others that have followed this same path of interest have discovered and chosen. I don't care how many other way there are to get it done.

What I am describing is not hypothetical. it is relating actual past events. I am describing what people are actually doing and the results. and the bubbles in fact do not expand again. Not in acrylics, and not in Silicone. Besides there are well know methods of making a mold that deal with that issue anyway.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> and the bubbles in fact do not expand again. Not in acrylics, and not in Silicone.


So someone that is making a living making silicone molds for critical parts should seek out beekeepers on ytube to get the latest technology and forget about what they know? :thumbsup:Right on.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Acebird said:


> So someone that is making a living making silicone molds for critical parts should seek out beekeepers on ytube to get the latest technology and forget about what they know? :thumbsup:Right on.


We have already covered this one. I am no more interested in how a manufacturer does it than you are in forensic science. But they are perfectly free to ask anyone they like how to do it.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Acebird said:


> OK Daniel I will leave you in your dream world.


Quote of the year here! In the category of most ironic....


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## ehrichweiss (Jun 19, 2014)

If you want standard automotive silicone to cure extremely fast, mix in a few drops of glycerine. You will want to test for the proper ratios but you will also want to use it sparingly as the more you use, the faster it will cure but it will also tend to shrink if you add too much. I've had an entire project cure in under a couple hours with little-to-no shrinkage. If you want to thin it a bit you can use mineral spirits(again, sparingly). [Edit: the mineral spirits can also cause the mold to shrink]

Automotive silicone reacts with moisture in the air and gives off acetic acid(which is why it smells like vinegar when it cures). That might be what causes silicone to continue to "boil" under vacuum. The glycerine provides a good portion of that moisture and is a lot easier to mix with silicone than simple water. 

I'm a magician and have used this method for years.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Welcome to BeeSource, the Magician!

Are you a beekeeper also? Can you do some magic to make more bees to appear in your
hives? I like to see that one day.
So how do we align these plastic queen cups to secure them inside a frame for the queen to lay in?


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## ehrichweiss (Jun 19, 2014)

Yes, I'm a first year beekeeper. No I can't do any magic to make them appear(though I wish I could) but I have thought about doing something akin to the trick that Penn and Teller did with bees.. That's a lot of fun to watch.

I don't know enough about queen cups at this point to answer the rest of that though I imagine I'll know that and more before long.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Looks like you are going to have lots of fun in beekeeping.
I don't like a queen less hive during the winter time. And have to find
queens everywhere to no avail when I needed them the most for my hives. Very often
they are so expensive when you do find a source. So the first step is to raise your own local queens. 
Find the Vsh queens if you can for a head start. Read up Michael Palmer's nuc methods and on
you tube vids he has. Queen grafting is a simple process but you need to know
the process first. Hopefully a site search will help you out. It is time to get your bee education with lots of reading
this winter.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> One could build a foundation press without knowing the correct nomenclature.
> 
> And the removal of air bubbles has zero importance because after 8 or 10 posts, most people have decided that the whole thing is a massive waste of time.
> 
> How often do you read a thread where someone is boasting about the excellent foundation that they are making?


I listened to 5 years of conversations that decided that casting and stabilization was a waste of time also. So I am not talking to the 8 I am talking to the 2. For those that want to work it out. I have provided a source of information that has solved these problems in the past. They can get a realistic idea of what it takes. they are not going to just go out and start pouring silicone and have a mold it is not nearly that simple.

So how about this. You decide for yourself who and what is worth talking about and I will do the same. And you just forget about trying to make those choices for me.


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