# Supersedure cell outside the broodnest



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

It is not unheard of for bees to attempt to replace young queens. Just because she's mated and laying doesn't mean she's a "keeper". There could be other imbalances present in the hive, like the relative ages of the bees wrt to the colonies needs. It depends on the situation of course, but I strongly believe that you did the right thing by leaving the cell intact. You may very well find this cell torn down on next inspection, but it may also mean that the bees need to replace her. Let the bees sort this out. Further, I would avoid too much disturbance of this colony for the next couple weeks. Again, let them sort this out. If you absolutely feel that the resident queen is a keeper, then pull her and place her in a nuc and allow the supercedure to take place in her former hive.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Never seen them stop once they start to supercede. I often find cells outside the brood nest when superceding, most typically in the honey supers.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

JRG13 said:


> Never seen them stop once they start to supercede. I often find cells outside the brood nest when superceding, most typically in the honey supers.


Do you think the herd the queen up there and force her to lay in the cell? Or move an egg?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

JRG13 said:


> Never seen them stop once they start to supercede.


The reason I mentioned that they may tear it down is that this does not sound like a routine supercedure. Routine supercedure almost always go through to completion. The OP didn't give the details of how it came to be that there was a "new queen" in this colony. Perhaps it was a mating nuc he is growing out? In non-routine supercedures, the bees will sometimes change their "mind" and keep the original queen. These non-routine supercedures can somethings be turned around by giving a frame of emerging brood, thereby adding critical nurse bees to the population and balancing the age of the workers relative to the needed tasks. Regardless, you often see similar things in packages, where you get a great imbalance in the age of the bees relative to the needs of the colony and supercedure can result. Michael Palmer has a nice video that introduces this concept.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I assume she's herded up there, typically there's a small patch of brood along with any cells or a cluster of cells. It could be an imbalance, but I've found young queens will typically take care of the issue if they're worthy, if not, they get superceded.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jwcarlson said:


> Do you think the herd the queen up there and force her to lay in the cell? Or move an egg?


I think jw is fishing with this post. I have seen a few references lately to the possibility of either egg moving now being reconsidered possible or theletoky. 

Anyone want to nibble it?


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

I guess that is my real question. Why would she go way the heck over there to a frame with no available cells except one lone queen cup and lay an egg in it? Why not start a QC somewhere on the 8 brood frames or use one of the half dozen cups scattered about where there is other brood to care for and keep warm? 

It's facinating. I've been reading too much historical semi-fiction lately because I have visions of revolutionary worker bees smuggling one egg out to the quiet periphery and caring for it while the rest of the hive goes about its business unaware of plans unfolding to dispatch the monarchy once this QC hatches and is of a proper age....just finished reading Kathrine Neville's _The Eight_


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

Background: This hive had a little more chalkbrood that I cared to see even though it was resolving on its own with increasing temps and the flow, I decided to change the genetics and requeen. After much searching and hassle to find a queen, I removed their old queen and they promptly killed the purchased queen I gave them. Not having time to deal with finding another queen and leaving for vacation, I said "to hell with it-make your own." I'll deal with the chalkbrood if it comes back. So they did just fine and made a nice queen without my help. She apparently mated well and is laying well by my standards. And so now they are making another.....


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm just curious what others might think, Crofter. I respect JRG13's input on BS so I thought I'd ask. We know they remove eggs. Why not move them? I don't really know or care, just interesting mystery. Someone with an observation hive might know better. 

I had one go drone layer early in my first batch of queens. So I offed her. And on the outside edge frame of the nuc there were two nearly capped queen cells. I cut them and tossed the bees and brood into other nucs. But it made me wonder. No other brood on the frame. 

In JRG's case with a little patch thst makes sense. My bees have been trying to supercede my "breeder" for weeks... That or she is tearing them down? Either way, they are just using the existing cups on bottom of the combs.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I am curious too! Perhaps others have seen evidence that eggs might have been transported but are afraid of being jumped all over if they mention it. It may take a while to resolve it!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

TW, I've had two nice young queens get superceded quickly. I suspect the buckeye affected them as the hive in question was queenless when I got it, and the buckeye was in full swing. I made 2 splits from the original hive with cells. All queens got mated and were laying well. I took the two splits home. One had eggs laid in a cup the second week she was laying, I think I tore it down just to see what was going on. They ended up replacing her, I found her gone about two weeks later and some emergency cells present. Two weeks ago I found the original hive w/o a queen again and some nice cells present, and from the brood that was left she was laying well. I do notice every year though that some new queens get superceded immediately when they look good to me and are laying well. Basically, they will have queen cups with eggs in it as soon as they start laying. Sometimes I think perhaps she just was laying every available cell as I've seen this with eggs on top of bee bread with young queens, but it's tough to say. I suspect some are damaged from fighting with other virgins and we just can't tell.

As far as moving eggs and stuff, I don't think it's impossible, but if the cell was formed from a cup, no matter where the location is, I'm betting the queen got herded over and forced to lay in it. I know there are stories of stuff going on over an excluder, but w/o seeing exactly what happened I don't dare make any supposition about it.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

JRG13 said:


> I'm betting the queen got herded over and forced to lay in it.


Has anyone actually documented this herding behavior? I know the bees will form a rosette, but do they actually herd the queen to a specific location? 

Thanks.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Nordak said:


> Has anyone actually documented this herding behavior? I know the bees will form a rosette, but do they actually herd the queen to a specific location?
> 
> Thanks.


While this isn't apples-to-apples... I watched worker bees in a Taranov swarm I did headbutt the queen down into the hole in the inner cover after she turned around and decided to go the other way.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

JRG13 said:


> As far as moving eggs and stuff, I don't think it's impossible, but if the cell was formed from a cup, no matter where the location is, I'm betting the queen got herded over and forced to lay in it. I know there are stories of stuff going on over an excluder, but w/o seeing exactly what happened I don't dare make any supposition about it.


I think Crofter thinks the first person who claims it emphatically (that bees move eggs) is going to get burned at the stake.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jwcarlson said:


> I think Crofter thinks the first person who claims it emphatically (that bees move eggs) is going to get burned at the stake.


Prudence hath the better part of valor! 

I thought perhaps there was some recent findings to support the theory. Haven't seen it hashed out for quite a few years. The consensus then was the believer had been eating mushrooms or something along that line!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm not in the egg moving camp or anything, I have no stake in it, but from an efficiency standpoint, it would seem easier to move an egg than herd the queen.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Nordak, what do you think the retinue does? They guide her around. As far as moving eggs goes, I sometimes get the odd laid cup here and there, and the egg is always standing on end, so I doubt it got 'moved' there. Also, bees seem to be more on re-doing something than being efficient. Like when you dump drone larva out, they don't re house them, just eat and recycle them or drag them off.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I thought the retinue was for attendance of the queen. I honestly didn't know. Thanks for telling me. True with the larvae scenario, but shoving a larva back inside a cell, depending on size, would take quite a bit of effort, not to mention recapping the cells they were removed from. Again, not arguing for or against, just throwing that out there.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

But to the point, I'm not saying they do or don't move eggs around. I figure it's a possibility, I don't see why it has to be an absolute yes or no. Kind of akin to the thinking, that the only way to breed mite resistant bees is to be treatment free.....


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I think many people who treat probably have resistant bees. My question would be, why treat them? But I digress, mite resistance and disease resistance don't always correlate. I'm guessing that's why some folks treat mite resistant bees. Also has to do with what's possible in any given area, but hey, back to moving eggs...nothing to see here.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Not going to touch that TF comment.

Moving on, has anyone moved the current queen to a new hive? I have no doubt there are no recounts after the vote is in to off the old queen. Been stupid enough once to try to make a split with superceder cell. Just wondering if a new shook swarm would vote the same way.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

JRG13 said:


> But to the point, I'm not saying they do or don't move eggs around. I figure it's a possibility, I don't see why it has to be an absolute yes or no. Kind of akin to the thinking, that the only way to breed mite resistant bees is to be treatment free.....


Lol! I thought I spotted a bit of flawed logic in that one too!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Salty, from what I've seen, once they decide to supercede the queen it's a done deal. You can move her to a nuc, give her to a new hive, but she will get superceded or just end up gone or stop laying at some point in the near future. I will make splits with cells, don't get me wrong, but they will just keep on making them til she fails or they finally stop feeding her and then she's gone and you have no choice but to let them requeen. My whole point on my TF comment, was that you can screen for resistance w/o being treatment free, but people take a hardline on the philosophy and pretty much the only criteria for looking at resistance when, again, it's not an absolute.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

Saltybee said:


> Not going to touch that TF comment.
> 
> Moving on, has anyone moved the current queen to a new hive? I have no doubt there are no recounts after the vote is in to off the old queen. Been stupid enough once to try to make a split with superceder cell. Just wondering if a new shook swarm would vote the same way.


Or a re-vote with new bees voting from a few frames of brood (from another hive) and a few shakes of bees in a nuc box. Wonder how long it'd take those different bees to come to a similar conclusion....days? Weeks?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

JRG13,
That's what I was asking. Appreciate not having to try it myself.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

It is the young queen laying full frames getting superseded that we notice. I wonder if it is not those full frames that is her defect. She is not thrifty, not listening to the hive and outlaying them. Our perfect queen is their doomsday.

Moving eggs; I can see them moving an egg, I cannot see them reattaching the eggs after the move. I cannot see them moving larva. Carrying larva on a floating pillow of jelly? Just can't picture it.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

FYI, they had it torn down when I went back in late last week. Business is back to normal. Young queen is really laying well. 

Next, it will be fun to compare mite loads on these hives that had a summer break in brood rearing with the ones that didn't.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

I have a very similar situation as salty did with a young queen that is laying very well and on frame 9 had supersedure cell started. Only one cell and no other cells started.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

In a nucs the queen could be anywhere. They fill the open comb up quickly and are relentlessly looking for more laying opportunity. Good thing too as any new comb would get filled with nectar.


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## shaneTX (Jun 7, 2016)

This is kinda of a newbie question but what happens to the old queen after the supersecure? 
Do the workers turn on her and kick her out/ball her? Is she forced to swarm away? Does this happen before the virgin hatches or before?


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