# VSH kicking



## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

I do Astro.  Are they inseminated or open mated? What level of VSH are we talking? Sorry, just couldn't resist...


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Hey, I want to see inside!! Hopefully we'll be doing a little trading eh??


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Astrobee, you got any queen cells in there? I'm desperate for a queen.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

JSL said:


> I do Astro.  Are they inseminated or open mated? What level of VSH are we talking? Sorry, just couldn't resist...


These are F1 crosses from pure VSH stock. PM me for details. I've had some VSH in the past that were less than impressive, these are not even close. Get out of the cold North and come down as see for yourself.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Brandy said:


> Hopefully we'll be doing a little trading eh??


Absolutely. Just like we planned. Pics later - too cold today. I'm out of town all next week.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

ruthiesbees said:


> you got any queen cells in there?


Sorry to hear of your problems. I do not have cells yet. I'm going to start queen rearing near the end of the month.


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## poppy1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Don't know who says VSH queens can't make brood, I lost all 10 hives last year which was a mix of who knows what because I obtained 5 different cut outs and at least 1 confirmed Italian strain. I started over in the spring with all VSH stock from a local breeder (7 Stands Bee Farm) and I can say that all 9 made it through our coldest winter on record and are brooding up incredibly fast, so not sure what, when, where or why but I am having great success with mine


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

poppy1 said:


> Don't know who says VSH queens can't make brood, I lost all 10 hives last year which was a mix of who knows what because I obtained 5 different cut outs and at least 1 confirmed Italian strain. I started over in the spring with all VSH stock from a local breeder (7 Stands Bee Farm) and I can say that all 9 made it through our coldest winter on record and are brooding up incredibly fast, so not sure what, when, where or why but I am having great success with mine


Those are good queens that 7 Stands Bee Farm made for you!

The "brooding" issue with VSH is more of an older debate then a current reality.
Different bee strains respond differently. VSH behavior is a suite of traits, not a specific strain. 

We test colonies here that brood like crazy and build-up intensely. These almost always crash and die in our untreated management program.
Colonies bred to express VSH behavior may not brood as much as the high-yield ones, but they're there the next season! 

The bee breeding future is bright and there are many "works in progress" if you will. VSH will certainly be part of that future.

Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Adam:

I've bookmarked your 7 stands page.

What is the average VSH % of your queens if you don't mind my asking?


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Wow, those 7 stands are priceless!!!


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

adamf said:


> The "brooding" issue with VSH is more of an older debate then a current reality.
> Different bee strains respond differently. VSH behavior is a suite of traits, not a specific strain.
> 
> We test colonies here that brood like crazy and build-up intensely. These almost always crash and die in our untreated management program.
> Colonies bred to express VSH behavior may not brood as much as the high-yield ones, but they're there the next season!



All true. I have some colonies from VSH stock derived from early Glenn stock which are going into their 5th year with zero treatments. One of these made 5 supers of honey last spring and three in the summer. Very low mite counts and bursting at the seams right now. They are currently in 2 deeps and 1 medium. I've also had some Glenn stock that simply couldn't maintain populations and ultimately died. Current VSH stock seems not to suffer from the same brood issues of days past. Of course this is a long-term program, but I agree that the future seems bright. However, as always, proceeding with caution...with eyes wide open.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

In the end, a commercial beekeeper must weigh in all of the important factors and calculate what is most profitable for his business. If one can choose between a super productive strain that needs to be treated and doesn't overwinter well and a super resistant strain that produces mediocre supplies but doesn't need to be treated and overwinters well, which is best? One needs to calculate the profit values of the honey production difference, the costs of treatment, and the costs of lost colony replacement (including lowered productivity of new colonies).

This is something I don't think anyone can give a pre-made answer for. Which bees are best depends on what kind of operation one is running. Are you selling a lot of honey retail, or is it almost all going to packers? This affects the value of your honey, and thus the value of high honey-producing strains. Do you pollinate much? Having better winter survival means it is easier to bring more colonies into the early pollination crops, while if you don't pollinate much and your honey flows aren't early, winter survival rate isn't quite as important. And so on.

Even if I favor resistant bees, I've always believed that there is no universally "best" bee, and that all beekeepers have different needs.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Astro,

I too have inseminated queens heading full size colonies that are 3, 4, and in rare instances 5 years old. These are the same queens heading production colonies. Are the mite resistant? 

Adam and Astro, 

Are you actively measuring and selecting for a certain percentage of VSH expression in the colonies? If the brood issue is a thing of the past..., then what percentage VSH expression is ideal and viable to prevent brood issues?

Thanks,
Joe


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

WLC said:


> Adam:
> 
> I've bookmarked your 7 stands page.
> 
> What is the average VSH % of your queens if you don't mind my asking?


Hi WLC,

7 Stands is a producer in NC. They work with us off and on. 

Looking at a pure VSH Breeder queen from us, the VSH expression is around 90% although this is a "rough" or "field" term.
We don't calculate "%VSH" on the USDA stock we select from.

Pol-line breeder queens have less "%VSH" then pure VSH Breeders. We receive great feed-back on them.
VSH Italian and VSH Carniolan should have around "75%VSH", but like I said, we don't quantify VSH%.

We do use stock that is known to express VSH highly, use a closed mating program through AI, 
practice performance selection on breeding candidates and select from untreated survivors.
Adam

www.vpqueenbees.com


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks Adam.

I've read a study showing that at 75% VSH, mite counts in late summer were below the 5% threshold.

So, those would be the type of VSH queens that I would want in a treatment free setting.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

JSL said:


> Astro,
> 
> I too have inseminated queens heading full size colonies that are 3, 4, and in rare instances 5 years old. These are the same queens heading production colonies. Are the mite resistant?
> 
> ...


Hi Joe, looks like we all have time to post on beesource...  Once you have proper drones, I know where you'll be... 


Simple background scenario:

We try to produce for use, the highest yeilding, best performing breeder queen we can. In this process, we use AI to minimize the variance natural mating introduces into hereditary expression. 

We use breeding stock that _survives without mite treatment for two seasons_ in our operation, and who we deem has performed well enough to potentially
impart positive influence in our breeding population. Most of our candidates that survive are from the USDA breeding program.

We use gross testing (http://vpqueenbees.com/vp-breeding-program/vp-alcohol-wash-assay) and receive foundation
VSH stock from the USDA that we then use: we evaluate it and then select from it.

_We don't use any mite control._ We've avoided using any antibiotic but last season we used some (Tetracycline--what's in Terramycin) to clean up some stress related EFB-type symptoms. (We're interested to see if that re-appears).

To answer your question:



JSL said:


> Are you actively measuring and selecting for a certain percentage of VSH expression in the colonies? If the brood issue is a thing of the past..., then what percentage VSH expression is ideal and viable to prevent brood issues?


Joe, We are not actively measuring for "VSH percentage" in our colonies. We are actively measuring and selecting for VSH behavior using a specific metric that has been discussed here before: Non-reproduction or infertility. This selection and survivability, coupled with our breeding program, is how we produce the stock we provide. If we see brood issues, we cull.

I think a high "%VSH" or a highly expressing VSH breeding unit would not make a good production queen, but is extremely suitable for a breeder queen used for virgins or drone mothers. If VSH expression rises in one's population overall, the population will become more resistant to mites and require less mite treatment to be productive. This is an ongoing process and is dynamic.

VSH for mite resistance is the "tip of the iceberg" in bee breeding but certainly has been a good place to start. 

Adam
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

Don't mean to sound like a smart a#%,But I've got several hives that I know without a doubt has not been treated with anything in over 7 years,
They are doing real good,Plenty of bees in the last 2 weeks that I've checked.
Does that rate them as VSH?


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

mark williams said:


> Don't mean to sound like a smart a#%,But I've got several hives that I know without a doubt has not been treated with anything in over 7 years,
> They are doing real good,Plenty of bees in the last 2 weeks that I've checked.
> Does that rate them as VSH?


VSH helps survival, but survival does not imply VSH.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

My VSH breeder from Vpqueens is off the chain this spring. I overwintered her in a five frame nuc. I had to move them up into a ten frame box back in early Feb. by early March I split the hive and moved her back into a five frame box, well yesterday I had to add another five frame box on top. The nuc box was packed she had laid up three of the five frames solid. The F1 daughters I raised last year are doing the same thing.


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## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

Dominic said:


> VSH helps survival, but survival does not imply VSH.


OK,Thanks.


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## ThatBe (Feb 5, 2010)

JohnG, are the F1 daughters from known drone stock or open mated?


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

No, they are open mated.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Joe said:


> Non-reproduction or infertility[/URL]. This selection and survivability, coupled with our breeding program, is how we produce the stock we provide. If we see brood issues, we cull.
> 
> I think a high "%VSH" or a highly expressing VSH breeding unit would not make a good production queen, but is extremely suitable for a breeder queen used for virgins or drone mothers. If VSH expression rises in one's population overall, the population will become more resistant to mites and require less mite treatment to be productive. This is an ongoing process and is dynamic.


Adam,

I appreciate your response. You hit on a couple of my primary concerns with VSH. I think the culled colonies offer insight into the behavior. I realize it may not be your primary focus, but what is happening with the brood issues? Second, what happens when the brood issues crop into a production setting? You say "pure VSH" is perhaps not ideal for a production colony, but works well for a "breeder scenario", fair enough, so far, we agree. But what happens when a beekeeper is successful at replacing a relatively high percentage of their stock with "VSH stock" and the matings become more pure? Is it fair to suggest that at some point the frequency of VSH expression may increase to the point of showing brooding issues? If so, then what is a beekeeper to do? Last, there is the EFB. I saw this in the VSH lines I worked with, not exclusively, but enough to cause me concern. John Harbo addressed this at a conference one time, but I believe his conclusion was that he did not have a good explanation for it. Unfortunately, I don's have any explanation either, just an observation. 

As I have stated before, I do not have an outright objection to the concept of VSH, but I have concerns about functionality of such a trait based on current knowledge.

Joe


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

"As I have stated before, I do not have an outright objection to the concept of VSH, but I have concerns about functionality of such a trait based on current knowledge."

Are we not getting a little bogged down with the label of VSH? In my mind whether it's an Italian, Carni, Russian etc.., if they are alive at this point without any varroa treatments, they are dealing with varroa successfully. Call them an AI, Alive Italian, SC, Successful Carni! Whether we add the trait or behavior through propagation with queen selection, bring in acknowledged semen from drones from these untreated colonies, or let them swarm etc., we are trying to increase the success of colonies able to defend themselves from varroa naturally, efficiently, timely etc... 

Some are calling it VSH, others a Cougar line, a feral line, or Italian, Carniolan developed with resistance in mind, or so they say. Doesn't matter the label, are these colonies removing mites, causing infertility in the mites, or living successfully with mites? We want those and we want more of them, especially when they make a boat load of surplus, overwinter, don't swarm and are calm and a pleasure to work! I feel a huge difference in the early so called VSH and what is available in our apiaries today. Obviously better understandings how to best use VSH, or these particular traits as a "tool" for the beekeeper. 

We would all have to be lucky to think we have enough VSH, or the "Alive Italian" in our hives that the number of drones available to open mating would overrun those without causing brood issues!! We acknowledge with II, breeders can increase the % of varroa resistance with their insemination's. Most feel that colonies in the US with at least 50% of this trait included in their make up will have a strong defense against varroa. Which is why VSH X VSH was limited to breeders that would then propagate those, with warning labels that they were not for production colonies or commercial use other than reproduction.

Recently, some are identifying those colonies that don't just remove the mites or create infertility, but actually chew on them!! What a concept. But I don't care whether we call it VSH or a HGH, Heavy Groomer Hygiene, or Mite Eater, etc., particular colonies do better than others at surviving and making crops. Those are the behaviors, traits, that we are all looking for and trying to select for and it doesn't matter what they are called. 

Minnesota Hygienic, Suppressed Mite Resistance, Varroa Sensitive Hygiene, just labels, and I'm sure we'll all see more of them down the road. But we're all looking for the same things, bees able to defend themselves, overwinter, produce, live....


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

mark williams said:


> Don't mean to sound like a smart a#%,But I've got several hives that I know without a doubt has not been treated with anything in over 7 years,
> They are doing real good,Plenty of bees in the last 2 weeks that I've checked.
> Does that rate them as VSH?


Why not test them via a sugar or alcohol shake and calculate the number of mites you find in a 300-bee sample? Then freeze drone cells and check for rates at which you are finding mites in those cells. Look for signs of mauling. Doing these things will help you determine if you have any VSH traits or not. Without testing, you don't actually KNOW what is happening in your hives.

JMO

Rusty


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

JSL said:


> Adam,
> 
> I appreciate your response. You hit on a couple of my primary concerns with VSH. I think the culled colonies offer insight into the behavior. I realize it may not be your primary focus, but what is happening with the brood issues?


Hi Joe,
We cull lots of candidates. 

The brood symptoms I had last year were the first ones I've ever seen in using VSH stock over the last 12 years. Other operators saw this "idiopathic brood disease" last year as well; in operations from all around the country. To assume the brood disease problem I had was linked to selection for VSH, would be quite a leap. That the issue was easily rectifiable by antibiotic treatment, after a long, cold, wet Spring, and that others many of whom use non-VSH stock, also experienced similar issues, helps me to believe the issues were environmental and not necessarily hereditary. I will be very vigilant for this going forward however.

The folks at Baton Rouge have been and are selecting against any colonies with potential "EFB" type symptoms and are aware that this had been an issue.




JSL said:


> Second, what happens when the brood issues crop into a production setting? You say "pure VSH" is perhaps not ideal for a production colony, but works well for a "breeder scenario", fair enough, so far, we agree. But what happens when a beekeeper is successful at replacing a relatively high percentage of their stock with "VSH stock" and the matings become more pure? Is it fair to suggest that at some point the frequency of VSH expression may increase to the point of showing brooding issues?


You are assuming that there is a positive correlation between higher VSH expression and brood issues. From the people I know who use VSH in their breeding programs, and have robust populations (> 1000 colonies), I've not heard of brood production issues. I think that generally in bee breeding, gene flow toward more homogeneous expressions is not necessarily good and that breeding to type in bees is very risky due to sex-allele loading via homogeneity in expression. Of course there needs to be selection to type for specific qualities, and any breeding program will have some homogeneous expression across breeding units, but populations may become too homogeneous to be productive. 

Using your example, one could always switch breeders for a season if one was worried that too much VSH expression was becoming potentially detrimental. The existing VSH, with the dilution, would still provide enough VSH expression to make the colonies mite resistant and lower the need for treatments (or allow for non-treatment).




JSL said:


> As I have stated before, I do not have an outright objection to the concept of VSH, but I have concerns about functionality of such a trait based on current knowledge.


Fair enough Joe. VSH is one of many traits we'll all possibly be able to use going forward. By using it in our breeding program we're certainly exploring how it's functionality benefits interested folks in the bee business. 

Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


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## ga.beeman (Mar 29, 2009)

Brood production in my hives from breeders from VP Queens and Glenn's has been really good in most hives. I have been able to keep most hives alive and very productive since going to a VSH line of bees. I have tried queens from other poster on here and didnt have any better results wasn't better than the VSH. They may not be for everyone but I sure like what I have seen the last six years. VP has some nice queens to offer people. They are not the super bee but alot better than what I run before.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

adamf said:


> We use breeding stock that _survives without mite treatment for two seasons_ in our operation,


Hi Adam,

Would you say that for a small apiary aiming to build ferals into usable tf stock, 2 full years of thriving free of treatments or any other sort of help is a sufficient yardstick? 

Would that need to be 1st year building to decent size, overwinting, 2nd year building to a decent size, then 2nd year overwintering then building well once more? 

I'm just trying to guage when I might be past this dreaded yeah-they're-ok-now-but-you're-in-for-a-shock moment. When I can start ramping up grafting reasonably confident that I'm in with a shot at a sound result. 

Mike (UK)


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

mike bispham said:


> Hi Adam,
> 
> Would you say that for a small apiary aiming to build ferals into usable tf stock, 2 full years of thriving free of treatments or any other sort of help is a sufficient yardstick?


Hi Mike!
2 years without treatment and still thriving is certainly worthy of some test queens, indeed.




mike bispham said:


> Would that need to be 1st year building to decent size, overwinting, 2nd year building to a decent size, then 2nd year overwintering then building well once more?



Sure. Or this: make queens from the ones that built to a decent size the 2nd year, towards the end of the season. Then over-Winter them while still over-Wintering the candidate-mothers. The following Spring, you'd see final result for the breeders and possibly have some of her daughters to start your next round of testing.




mike bispham said:


> I'm just trying to guage when I might be past this dreaded yeah-they're-ok-now-but-you're-in-for-a-shock moment. When I can start ramping up grafting reasonably confident that I'm in with a shot at a sound result.



Oh boy--one doesn't get over that stage. Some will always fade and die and some will always survive: uncertainty is the predictable part of this.
However, by testing sufficient numbers, you're hedging against the built-in uncertainty.

Have a good one!
Adam
vpqueenbees.com


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Sue Cobey mentioned that bee breeding is like pushing in on a balloon in one spot, just to see it pop up in another. Life long endeavor for sure.


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