# Swarm Control Made Very Easy – Apparently



## Talking With Bees (Jul 7, 2012)

I have just become aware of a new method for swarm control. I am a novice/improving beekeeper, on a journey, and I would value any thoughts on this theory.

The theory and research comes from Dr Roman Linhart in Czech Republic.

In essence: His theory and research is that when a colony focuses on spreading its genes through producing many drones rather than through the colony swarming, the colony then supercedes when the Queen is damaged or old, often in later summer when the queen is typically two years old. He claims 99% effectiveness using his method and has written a university paper. In practice it means creating a lot of drones but also creating more honey.

I describe the method and benefits and am planning to try it for a year or two.

Grateful for thoughts ...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

More drones equils mite breeding grounds


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

I suspect the genetics of the bees may play a part in this. They clearly didn't interview my bees. Many of mine act like they have a bit of AHB influence. They are a little hot and love to make tons of drones, then QCs, then swarm; Space or not, opened brood nest or not, checkerboarded or not, surplus or not.

They will be requeened shortly from calm hives that stayed in place and made lots of honey and workers. Hopefully all those random drones don't mess up the resulting colonies.


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## Bmcq (May 29, 2013)

Ian said:


> More drones equils mite breeding grounds


Agree with Ian on that.
Also I don't want extra drones sitting around consuming my honey crop. The bees will make as many drones as they need. I will cull some drone comb as part of the mite management process.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Kind of hard to take a "university research paper" as gospel when it was taken from a guy who is trying to sell the thermosolar hive..

I see a lot of people disagree with his heat treatment idea as the magic potion against mites. Also sounds like letting the bees have a free-for-all in building drone comb, isn't a good thing because mites love drone brood. 

Could he be doing his research on bumble bees or something? Maybe he's got his bees mixed up? Sounds like what he's advocating is good for his bees is all bad for OUR bees.

BMCQ, that link OP provided says that drones don't consume much honey at all. It's negligible. They only eat protein. We've all been confused!


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## spencer (Dec 7, 2004)

I'm actually ok if they swarm. This will break the brood cycle, the mite count will drop, a fresh new queen will be made, and the bees have a much better chance of surviving the winter.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Ian and ABK, it is clear you have not read the writing of the researcher at "click here" where he mentions mites and with so many drones the mites tend to leave the worker brood alone. As for the drones consuming all the honey, he seems to be of the opinion that drones consume mostly protein and very little honey. This guy has been doing this study for 7 years so it is possible that he might know what he is talking about. I feel you should not knock it until you have tried it, I can imagine some fella coming along 20 years ago that claims to heat up oxalic acid and puts it into his hives and everyone just shook their heads and said there goes another nutter.
John


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Here we go again, read the section under "click here" on the original posting and many of your queries are answered. The guy spent 7 years doing the research and he is doubted when most readily believe brood breaks help solve mite problems. I have yet to see any research that brood breaks are of any value at all except if you treat when broodless.
Johno


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

" I can imagine some fella coming along 20 years ago that claims to heat up oxalic acid and puts it into his hives and everyone just shook their heads and said there goes another nutter. "

Many haters out there afraid of thinking outside the box or doing something new. 
In Norway they would also get angry and accuse the guy of weakening his hive with acid and subsequently spread desease to their bees.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Pondulinus said:


> " I can imagine some fella coming along 20 years ago that claims to heat up oxalic acid and puts it into his hives and everyone just shook their heads and said there goes another nutter. "
> 
> Many haters out there afraid of thinking outside the box or doing something new.
> In Norway they would also get angry and accuse the guy of weakening his hive with acid and subsequently spread desease to their bees.


Then do it and let us know how it works out.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Nabber I will let you know in 7 years time. I am not my brothers keeper.
Johno


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

johno said:


> This guy has been doing this study for 7 years so it is possible that he might know what he is talking about. I feel you should not knock it until you have tried it
> John


Sure maybe he does, but from my time with the bees I don't think so.
I feel you should not jump on a band wagon until you have tried the method.


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

I'm no rocket scientist when it comes to bees, and I am pretty sure that I am not going to be the beekeeper who solves the world's bee problems with a new invention.

So, I don't discount ANYONE when it comes to possible solutions. If this guy spent 7 years working on this Thermosolarwhatever Hive, and thinks it works, I'd give it a try on one of my hives before I'd condemn it.

Sure as shootin', nobody else has come up with a solution yet.

As for swarming, I don't really pay attention to it. I just keep on with the basic beekeeping methods which I learned from a bunch of old commercial beekeepers down in Florida 20+ years ago, when I was just starting out, and I find that I don't have a lot of issues to worry about, including swarming. yes, I have had to make a few adjustments, mainly due to varroa mites, but the basics have served me well and I don't stray too far from them, at least where my main hives are concerned. Like a lot of beekeepers, I am a tinkerer and like to try out new things, but I save my experimenting for a few selected hives and leave the rest alone.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Guys I do not believe his story has anything to do with that hive you are talking about, I think this is just about drones in any hive at swarm time. The guy tells you how many square inches of drone comb in a hive will prevent swarming, so it is worth a trial on a few hives.
Johno


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

johno said:


> Ian and ABK, it is clear you have not read the writing of the researcher at "click here" where he mentions mites and with so many drones the mites tend to leave the worker brood alone. As for the


Ha ha ha, John, I'll just let you ponder this one for a while.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Hey Ian I do not care how many mites I can have in drone comb cause after I harvest I am going to kill them anyway. For me swarm management is a pain in the rear end, and I would look at any way to make it easier. Beekeeping is hard work and if I can find an easier way I am prepared to look at it.
Johno


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

His recommendation certainly is contrary to advice not to split the brood! As far as the biological load being negligible, yet in another place claiming the drones biomass helps incubate brood.......... hmmm! Laws of thermodynamics say no free lunch! (my version)I think I would rather have the queen creating more workers to incubate brood. They are quicker to rear and serve other needs as well as supplying heat. The excess drones as a sacrificial varroa trap sounds plausible but at what point and what mechanism are the mites destroyed. They are notorious for drifting to other colonies.

We can not try out every piece of claimed success; we simply dont live long enough. We have to run it through a quick process of seeing if the claims have any of the red flags our experience connects with previous flash in the pan claims. I do not feel guilty at all about not being an early adapter or bandwagon jumper. it has served me well.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

johno said:


> Nabber I will let you know in 7 years time. I am not my brothers keeper.
> Johno


I spent 7 years researching bees in my backyard. I found the magic bullet and it is called Oxalic Acid. If somebody comes up with a proven alternative that works better, I am all ears. In the meantime I am not going to waste my time thinking outside the box.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I do not have a mite problem, but run 50 hives and in the spring swarm prevention takes up a lot of time and energy. I am not one of those lucky ones who claim that there bees have not swarmed just because they have not seen them swarm.So I am prepared to look into or outside of any box with bees in it.
Johno


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Lol John you sound like you have a stake in the company. Every post you're just reasoning how it's worth trying. Why don't you just try it on some of your hives, since you have so many? I'm not seeing what you have to gain from getting others to jump into this drone rearing party.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

johno said:


> Hey Ian I do not care how many mites I can have in drone comb cause after I harvest I am going to kill them anyway. For me swarm management is a pain


Hmmm... I'll let you ponder that thought aswell... Ha ha


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Clairesmom said:


> I'm no rocket scientist when it comes to bees, and I am pretty sure that I am not going to be the beekeeper who solves the world's bee problems with a new invention.
> 
> So, I don't discount ANYONE when it comes to possible solutions. If this guy spent 7 years working on this Thermosolarwhatever Hive, and thinks it works, I'd give it a try on one of my hives before I'd condemn it.
> 
> Sure as shootin', nobody else has come up with a solution yet.


So put your money where your mouth is and let us know when you shell out $800 for a solar hive. I have a plan the uses gaseous effluent from the rear end of a bovine that I will sell you for half that price.


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## Talking With Bees (Jul 7, 2012)

johno said:


> I do not have a mite problem, but run 50 hives and in the spring swarm prevention takes up a lot of time and energy. I am not one of those lucky ones who claim that there bees have not swarmed just because they have not seen them swarm.So I am prepared to look into or outside of any box with bees in it.
> Johno


Let's do it Johno and compare results in 12 months time!


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

what solar hive, we are dealing with a guy who is putting foreword a theory for swarm prevention that says nothing about the hive. I am not invested in the theory but feel that it should not be discounted by just anecdotal thoughts. There is a system called checkerboarding also gone through the same sort of ridicule, and I suppose many would do the same for some guys in South America adding oxalic acid to Glycerin. All I am trying to convey to all those bee experts out there is that some one trying to find a remedy for an old bee problem. I myself think this might be an opportunity to flood my area with drones from one of my best queens and when I see them building queen cells I will go back and take care of them as I do my other hives that show swarming signs.
Johno


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## AdamBeal (Aug 28, 2013)

I feel like I already kind of do this method. I "open up the sides of the broodnest" several times in the spring to prevent swarming. The bees come in and build tons of drone comb in those openings and raise a lot more drones. This shifts them away from swarm mode and kind of into this drone rearing mode. I still got great honey crops (2 to 3 medium supers each) from these hives with all the extra drones. Maybe I would have gotten more honey without so many drones not sure but I am very happy with the results.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

johno said:


> . All I am trying to convey to all those bee experts out there is that some one trying to find a remedy for an old bee problem.


Finding a remedy is great. One solution which leads into another problem.
you don't need to be a bee expert to keep your eyes wide open


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I was not able to read the article in detail, short on time. But I got that you need 4 frames of drones. I did not see where those drones need to emerge. If that is correct then how is this not a dual method. possibly preventing swarms if the claims are correct as well as compatible with IPM methods of mite control? simply remove frames of drones once capped as you would in mite control methods and destroy them. As I said I may have missed it but did not see where allowing the drones to emerge was required to prevent swarming.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya that would turn this idea into an interesting strategy
The article leads a lot of assumptions, and my assumption is that the drones are hatched


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My hives have plenty of drone comb (probably 25% or so) and I think they ALL swarmed this spring because everything was early and I got busy.


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

Nabber86 said:


> So put your money where your mouth is and let us know when you shell out $800 for a solar hive. I have a plan the uses gaseous effluent from the rear end of a bovine that I will sell you for half that price.


Everyone has an opinion, but you don't need to be rude to other people simply because you disagree with them


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

As for the swarming issue, I don't even get it. I have never had an issue with swarming. I can see if someone just gets busy, as Michael states above happened to him, and can't get to the hives to work them before they get too built up and swarm, but mine don't.

I work my hives, and in the course of my regular maintenance will pull "excess" brood frames, or do splits if I feel a really strong hive needs to be pulled back, and I also do splits for other reasons, but I would never say that I spend a lot of extra time or energy working on swarm prevention. It is not something I worry about.

I understand that some beekeepers think that swarming is good, as a "natural" function of the bees, but as a beekeeper I can't stand the thought of my bees taking off, and taking so much honey with them when they go. I'd rather do a split and wind up with an extra hive down the road than watch all my resources go flying off into the sunset.

Ha, just remembered- there was ONE time when I had a swarming problem. When I moved to MN from Florida I left 100 hives with some friends to look after for the winter. The guys used my hives for pollination, and, in return, requeened them for me before I picked them up the following Spring. Our bee inspector happened to be raising Carniolans at the time and requeened with queens that he had raised. Ha! 3 weeks after getting the bees settled in MN they took off like gangbusters. Built up so fast on a huge basswood bloom that I could not keep up with them. I watched my bees casting swarm after swarm, and never caught a single one of them. That just about broke my heart  But, it was the only time I have had swarms, and as I'd prefer not to repeat the experience, I stay ahead of the bees. Not a big deal.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Clairesmom said:


> Everyone has an opinion, but you don't need to be rude to other people simply because you disagree with them


But you did say:



Clairesmom said:


> So, I don't discount ANYONE when it comes to possible solutions. If this guy spent 7 years working on this Thermosolarwhatever Hive, and thinks it works, *I'd give it a try on one of my hives before I'd condemn it.*




The only worst than a closed mind is proclaiming to have an open mind and not acting on it. Do you expect me to do your work for you? Buy the hive already and let us know how it works.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Clairesmom said:


> As for the swarming issue, I don't even get it. I have never had an issue with swarming. I can see if someone just gets busy, as Michael states above happened to him, and can't get to the hives to work them before they get too built up and swarm, but mine don't........


Now I'm wondering why you bothered to chime in on a post discussing a new method of swarm control if you've 'never' had an issue with it.
I'm also wondering how your swarm control methods which differ very little from what many many others use results in you having had swarms only once,
and others using very similar methods have at least a few every year? how is this so?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Look lets get a few things straight, From what I gather from this thread is some one who has come up with some kind of solar heated hive basically for varoa control has also come up with some means of swarm control. Now reading up his story on swarm control by means of producing large amounts of drones the type of hive is not mentioned. This fellow has given the area of drone comb required in square inches and I calculate you would require about 7 medium frames of drones per brood area. At no time does this guy say that you need to have his hive to do this. Now we have also a story about how easy it is to prevent swarms, well I run mostly Carni stock and find it quite the opposite. This year has been one of the worst years for honey production and also the worst for swarms. The weather played an important role in this as we had late cool spells and something like 26 consecutive days of rain right in the swarm prep time frame. No one could get into their hives, the bees had nothing to do but build queen cells and when the rain came to an end there were just bees in the trees. So hell yes I am prepared to look at some one else's experience and also flood my queen raising efforts with my best drones.
Johno


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

**I'm not taking sides here, just trying to understand** Also, although the credibility of one thought may impact another, the ThermoSolar hive is a separate issue.

It appears he isn't removing the drone brood: From the link "Vast amount of time and effort saved. By establishing drone rearing in two visits in spring and not entering the brood chamber for the rest of the season". He can't take out the brood is he isn't in the hive.

Also quoted is "The following statement is quite interesting too: “Many beekeepers try to cut out the drone comb to get the colony rid of the Varroa mite. And they are afraid that drone rearing would increase the number of mites to a level that would endanger the colony. But the opposite is true. As long as there is drone brood present in the colony, the Varroa mite holds only to it. Thus the drone comb reduces the parasite’s pressure on the worker bee caste.”"

Randy Oliver has data that drone culling is beneficial here: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-biotechnical-tactics-ii/ I don't know how that compares with encouraging full drone production.

In my limited observations mites are on worker brood even when drone brood is present, however I don't know anything about the percentages. They may infest equally or it may be 99% on drones leaving the workers healthy and productive. What I do know is when it gets bad the whole hive suffers.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

But don't forget the maker of the solar hive claims that is does the following:

_Eliminates _V. Destructor due to achieving a high temperature. The website actually says that it kills 90 to 95 percent of all mites. 

Prevents swarming.

Eliminates American foul brood.

If that is true why is no messing around with drone removal?


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

clyderoad said:


> Now I'm wondering why you bothered to chime in on a post discussing a new method of swarm control if you've 'never' had an issue with it.
> I'm also wondering how your swarm control methods which differ very little from what many many others use results in you having had swarms only once,
> and others using very similar methods have at least a few every year? how is this so?


I chimed in to express the thought that I have never had a swarm problem. I read a lot of posts from people who have had problems, and I read about a lot of theories and "methods" for preventing swarms, and I just find that very interesting because, for me, swarms have not been an issue.

The only explanation I can come up with is that I do manage my hives fairly intensively, and that management includes removing frames of brood if I feel the need, or making sure that the bees have plenty of space. I do all of that preemptively, well before any of the hives reach the point of wanting to swarm. 

I will add that I am at home on the farm most of the time, and I have, or make, the time to inspect my hives on a regular basis. A lot of beekeepers I know have full-time jobs away from home and can't always get to their hives at the best time for inspections. 

Or, maybe I just feel more strongly about not wanting my bees to swarm than other beekeepers and so ensure that they do not reach swarming proportions? Or maybe my stock is less swarmy than that of other beekeepers? I can say that I have raised most of my own queens for many years, so maybe by selecting for non-swarminess (is that even a word, lol) I have gotten away from it? Not sure.


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

Nabber86 said:


> But you did say:
> 
> [/B]
> 
> The only worst than a closed mind is proclaiming to have an open mind and not acting on it. Do you expect me to do your work for you? Buy the hive already and let us know how it works.




seriously?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Texanbelchers, I do not have a dog in this fight. I am just defending the guy against all those who would just discount his claims based on all their expert knowledge without giving the man a fair trial. Then we go on to all the expert knowledge that drone brood attracts mites which is also not proven, which again has nothing to do with swarm prevention. After a while you start to realize that there are none so blind as those who will not see as they go off on all sorts of tangents that have nothing to do with the subject " swarm prevention"
Johno


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Clairesmom said:


> I chimed in to express the thought that I have never had a swarm problem.


Thanks for the reply.
Still doesn't compute. 
Your management and methodology is widely used. 
There are still colonies that swarm.
But not yours.


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## The General (Apr 22, 2014)

Nabber86 said:


> But don't forget the maker of the solar hive claims that is does the following:
> 
> _Eliminates _V. Destructor due to achieving a high temperature. The website actually says that it kills 90 to 95 percent of all mites.
> 
> ...



Why do you keep going on and on about some thermosolar hive when this thread and topic have absolutely nothing to do with such a thing?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

johno said:


> Texanbelchers, I do not have a dog in this fight. I am just defending the guy against all those who would just discount his claims based on all their expert knowledge without giving the man a fair trial. Then we go on to all the expert knowledge that drone brood attracts mites which is also not proven, which again has nothing to do with swarm prevention. After a while you start to realize that there are none so blind as those who will not see as they go off on all sorts of tangents that have nothing to do with the subject " swarm prevention"
> Johno


I get it, no tangents. 
Straight up, I wouldn't waste a minute with this guys method. My experience with the bees tells
me so. And for more than a couple of reasons. 
You like the method then go use it next year and see how your bees make out.
Starting to sound like sour grapes in an off year. BTW, no great shakes up here either.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Yes, I guess I should try harder not let my opinion of the thermo solar hive's practicality, color my perception in regard to his swarm control measure scheme. I am struggling to keep them separate! Someone should start a "Go Fund Me" internet appeal.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

The General said:


> Why do you keep going on and on about some thermosolar hive when this thread and topic have absolutely nothing to do with such a thing?


Don't want to speak for Nabber but I think he's pointing out a spin doctor.
Could be wrong.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I'm all in for new science. The best science is peer reviewed and the best ideas are replicated to test for the same results. I see this paper was written nine years ago. How was this paper received in the beekeeping community in Europe? Does anyone know of _any_ subsequent research that replicates this study? 

If there is/was substance to the methods described, wouldn't the method be in the forefront of scientific literature?

P.S. I do however, find this statement interesting even though it isn't related to the subject of the study:


> “The second benefit is increased honey production (30% more). Drones feed on protein-based food (pollen), not on the honey. Adult drones do not consume honey on a large scale. They leave their colony only for short trips to mating sites and take their stock of honey in their crop. This loss is, however, minimal. It is compensated for by the fact that with their large biomass that is clustered on the combs, drones help warm the brood up and thus release thousands of foraging bees to work on flowers. Based on my [Roman’s] observation, the flight frequency at the hive entrances increases with drone rearing 2.6 times. I came to this conclusion by comparing the air traffic at the entrances of hives with swarm control drone rearing and a control group of 10 neighboring hives. In bee colonies with drones, there is a much higher flight activity of the worker bees even when the weather worsens.


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

clyderoad said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> Still doesn't compute.
> Your management and methodology is widely used.
> There are still colonies that swarm.
> But not yours.


dunno.

genetics?

timing?

Extra attention? my home bee yard is in my little orchard, which is 20 yards from my garden, and between the bees and the weeds, that area is where I spend 75% of my time during the growing season. I also have a chair next to my hives, and try to make a point of taking a cold glass of iced tea and sitting out there, sipping and just watching, for 30 minutes every day, weather permitting.

Space? I overwinter in 3 deeps. Split as soon as I can raise queens, which is early summer here. 

Making splits? "My" beeyard is also our club's demonstration apiary. We do beginning beekeeper classes/workshops, and, invariably, someone, or several someone's, want to buy a hive or two of bees after finishing the class. Since packages have to be ordered by around mid-April, if not earlier, a lot of people miss out because typically, they don't start thinking about getting bees until late May or June. I wind up selling a bunch of hives every year and then make more splits to make up for the sold off hives. Maybe I do more splitting than a lot of other beekeepers?

I'm a pretty simple person, and a pretty simple beekeeper. I started out learning from a bunch of old commercial beekeepers down in Florida over 20 years ago. They were some really good beekeepers, mostly 2nd and 3rd generation at the time. I learned a lot from them- cut years off the learning curve for me, and I still keep doing things pretty much the way they taught me to. I make adjustments as needed, of course, and keep up with new developments in things like mite control, but i don't go crazy trying to keep up with new fads or anything else. 

I keep reading posts about swarming and can't figure out why so many others have problems. I sure don't think it's because I'm a better beekeeper than anyone else- maybe I've just been doing it long enough that I have a system which works and I stick to it.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Clairesmom - that takes a lot of the time out of the learning curve don't it - I went to work for a comm. beekeeper that ran 15000 hives - after a couple of years I had it down fairly well myself (at 14 years old) - and still keeping bees (now 56) - Guess I've had a lot of practice as well. All these guys ask when to put on an extra super - that one always gets me as so simple - as soon as the berry's start blooming (mid march) I put on 3 mediums comb and 2 deeps of pure deep foundation - don't have a swarming problem myself -


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

The date paper was claimed to have been written is 2011 which would be 5 years ago. Why has it taken so long to get here, your guess is as good as mine. I wonder how long oxalic acid took after being used in Europe to be used in the USA.
Johno


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Clairesmom said:


> dunno.
> 
> genetics?
> 
> timing?


I don't know either. 
Hard to comprehend a success rate like that.
Don't know anyone who can make the same claim, except sak.


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

sakhoney said:


> Clairesmom - that takes a lot of the time out of the learning curve don't it - I went to work for a comm. beekeeper that ran 15000 hives - after a couple of years I had it down fairly well myself (at 14 years old) - and still keeping bees (now 56) - Guess I've had a lot of practice as well. All these guys ask when to put on an extra super - that one always gets me as so simple - as soon as the berry's start blooming (mid march) I put on 3 mediums comb and 2 deeps of pure deep foundation - don't have a swarming problem myself -


15,000 hives- that's a lot of hives. The immersion method of learning beekeeping, lol.

But the thing is, a lot of people who frequent the various forums are not commercial beekeepers. I can't imagine a commercial guy standing by watching his hives swarm, and I don't do it with mine, either. 

Yeah, I know of beekeepers who "claim" their hives never swarm, 'cause they haven't seen them do it, but I am not one of those. I am in every one of my hives often enough to know what is happening with them, and they aren't swarming. It is possible to not let your hives swarm.


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

clyderoad said:


> I don't know either.
> Hard to comprehend a success rate like that.
> Don't know anyone who can make the same claim, except sak.


Most of the beekeepers who I worked with in Florida could make the same claim. Heck, what's the point of keeping bees if you're going to let them swarm off with your profits?

Tell you what- I don't get out to hang with the commercial beekeepers in my new neighborhood much since my daughter was born 5 years ago, but as it happens, I was planning to meet with a couple of them in the next week or two to talk about some out yard locations I want to use next year. When I see them, I will make a point to ask THEM about whether they let their hives swarm or not. Maybe they will have some ideas. I'll come back and share what I learn from them.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Clairesmom said:


> Most of the beekeepers who I worked with in Florida could make the same claim. Heck, what's the point of keeping bees if you're going to let them swarm off with your profits?
> 
> Tell you what- I don't get out to hang with the commercial beekeepers in my new neighborhood much since my daughter was born 5 years ago, but as it happens, I was planning to meet with a couple of them in the next week or two to talk about some out yard locations I want to use next year. When I see them, I will make a point to ask THEM about whether they let their hives swarm or not. Maybe they will have some suggestions. I'll get back to you and let you know what I find out.


So we are on the same page: the claim being made about your success with swarm management, and those you know in FL is what exactly?
What percentage of the hives swarm?

So you know what tree your barking up-
I had a swarm percentage of 7% this year. That is 5 swarms from 83 production hives. 0 from 21 support hives. 0 from 15 nucs.
I intensely manage them myself through pollination, nuc sales and honey production using the same old fashioned techniques taught to you.
It ain't my first rodeo.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

His claim is 30% more honey, plus no swarming. 30% more honey, than what? Than a hive that did swarm? If that is the case the extra honey is because the hive didn't swarm, not because it was full of drones.

So the main question is if the extra drones will stop swarming. I won't question his results because only he knows what his results really were. What I can say is his results are not the same as my results.

He says he needs 4 to 6 drone combs depending on hive configuration. In my drone production hives I run drone combs and have often used 4 drone combs. The hive will produce a whole lot of drones, but once their desired number is reached they will slow drone raising and instead use most of those combs for storage. So I'm confident the bees know when enough is enough, and adding even more drone comb would not induce them to raise more drones. 

My own observation is that these hives will try to swarm every bit as much as the hives with little drone comb, and also, they will on average make less honey than hives with few drones. So I'm not saying the guy is wrong, I'm saying whatever results he got may not translate to everywhere.

The other thing he does in a 2 brood box hive, is early spring have 3 drone combs in the bottom box. Later, he adds 3 combs of blank foundation in the top box for the bees to make into drone comb. My own experience is that a hive with 3 drone combs and a generation of adult drones from them in the hive, if given more empty frames cannot be relied on to fill those frames with drone comb, in fact they will mostly fill them with worker comb. So he either has different bees, different location, or whatever, his results are not the same as mine.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

comm. beekeepers do not let there bees swarm - the guy I worked for over wintered 5000 hives that we had to feed all winter due to being trucked back from the South Dakota - pull off high dollar honey and feed all winter HFCS - then in the spring we busted these up to 15000 and trucked them back north. in the winter - the extra 10000 hives - he blew them in the snow - I know it sounds bad - but that's comm. beekeeping. Then in the spring when we were making up the new hives they all got new queens - and we hardly ever saw any swarms - and we had a 10 man crew - we were in the yards alot


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

sakhoney said:


> he blew them in the snow


Just out of interest does much of that still happen now a days?


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Old timer - I couldn't tell ya - that old beekeeper has long been dead - but I bet it still goes on with the bigger guys up north - can't afford to truck all of them back 2000 miles


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

clyderoad- I am stating that I have had zero swarms since that horrible experience I mentioned earlier, which took place in 2005. I had so many swarms that year that I lost track. But since then, zero swarms, zero percent. 

My hive numbers fluctuate wildly because, as mentioned earlier, I sell off a lot of starter hives to new beekeepers. Last year I sold almost all of my existing stock in anticipation of starting with Russian bees this year. I was laid up with a back injury from Feb thru March, wasn't sure I'd be up to working the bees this year, so did not follow through with that plan. Expect to do it next year, so will likely sell all but one of my remaining hives by the end of this summer.

Ha! Will have to see if I can do as well with the Russians with regard to swarming- maybe that will be my challenge! I definitely learned a lot from that bunch of Carniolan x's I wound up with, lol.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Clairesmom said:


> clyderoad- I am stating that I have had zero swarms since that horrible experience I mentioned earlier, which took place in 2005. I had so many swarms that year that I lost track. But since then, zero swarms, zero percent.


Ha! is right.


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)




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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

johno said:


> Then we go on to all the expert knowledge that drone brood attracts mites which is also not proven, which again has nothing to do with swarm prevention. o


JohnO
The assumption is made in the article...
>>Many beekeepers try to cut out the drone comb to get the colony rid of the Varroa mite. And they are afraid that drone rearing would increase the number of mites to a level that would endanger the colony. But the opposite is true. As long as there is drone brood present in the colony, the Varroa mite holds only to it. Thus the drone comb reduces the parasite’s pressure on the worker bee caste.”<<

And I'll restate, drone production equils mite production. better have those counts in check


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

> Clairesmom; I wind up selling a bunch of hives every year and then make more splits to make up for the sold off hives. Maybe I do more splitting than a lot of other beekeepers?


I know I am an amateur compared to all of you, but isn't this the reason you get no swarms?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Arnie said:


> I know I am an amateur compared to all of you, but isn't this the reason you get no swarms?


Ha ha, don't tell , it's a secret !


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

Arnie said:


> I know I am an amateur compared to all of you, but isn't this the reason you get no swarms?



Thank you, Arnie!

Yes, exactly. One of the reasons I have no swarms.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Clairesmom said:


> dunno.
> 
> I also have a chair next to my hives, and try to make a point of taking a cold glass of iced tea and sitting out there, sipping and just watching, for 30 minutes every day, weather permitting.


I'm glad you mentioned that you like the iced tea cold.


So eventually we found out that the reason you have no swarms is because you sell bees, and split your hives all the time.. Why keep posting about how useless you think swarm prevention is if you know you do the single most guaranteed way to prevent swarms to your hives while everyone else's goal is to have strong production hives that don't swarm?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Splitting and or population management is the key to building a strong production hive.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Ian from what I have read recently mites do not favour drone comb over worker comb, the amount of mites will depend on the chance of a nurse bee with mites putting its head into the comb at the right time. Its a given removing capped drone comb will also remove the mites that are in that comb, I have at least 2 drone combs in my brood boxes purely to try to stop them from creating burr comb between frames where they will raise drones anyway. Actually I have a freezer full of capped drone comb I don't know what to do with. For me and my Carniolans swarming begins with my 6 week flow and if the weather does not allow me to get into my hives every 5 days I cannot manage my swarming impulse, so with my 50 hives that's 10 hives a day and 4 to 5 boxes high and it means going through every box trying to make space and searching for queen cups with eggs or larvae in them. I am 72 at this time and work alone, so I would look at anything to help me in this task. Actually you can see on utube under "beesweeper" and see what I mean.
Johno


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Ian said:


> Splitting and or population management is the key to building a strong production hive.


Can you elaborate on that a little bit? I am always looking to improve my management skills. Thx


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Ian said:


> Splitting and or population management is the key to building a strong production hive.


Sure glad you put the 'and or' in your reply. In some places splitting in spring means support hives through honey flow.
On the other hand, Population management will result in strong production hives and a few support hives.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The percentage of successful female mites to emerge from one cycle is much higher on drone brood than worker due to longer incubation time.

There is an old article on Radical Swarm Control that consists of scraping the cappings on three frames of worker brood just before normal swarm period. This is similar in impact to making a split but not as severe as swarming as no foragers are lost. Things that interfere with reaching certain population demographics or pheremone levels will lessen swarming. I can see the possibility that 6 frames of drone cells in the center of the brood area could be enough interference with the queens efficiency to limit brood rearing somewhat but I have doubts that the honey output will match or be ahead of colonies managed to prevent swarming A lot of these methods are not productive in one sense but their net value can still be a plus compared to the much worse loss of swarming.

If you dont have the time or inclination to do some of these methods you might consider swarming a tolerable alternative. Living close to a town and having the only bees around, I could hardly escape responsibility if a swarm were to land up in someones walls or roof. What I am doing is effective but reaching limits due to labor involved.

I sure would listen if successful operators were documenting their per hive honey production and swarm rate with the drone scheme while running level playing field control with conventional management. If they can substantiate no swarming and 30% more honey per hive I would think they would be famous!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

clyderoad said:


> Sure glad you put the 'and or' in your reply. In some places splitting in spring means support hives through honey flow.
> On the other hand, Population management will result in strong production hives and a few support hives.


Not all hives can be split. So in the end objective to regulate population growth a number of strategies need to be employed to set the hive up for max production. 

And yes I can elaborate on that, but it does not include any type of drone brood management


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Johno
Mites love drone brood

I'm into the brood nest 3 times in the spring, then the next time is the following year


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Ian said:


> Not all hives can be split.


In some places none can be split and be up to max production by main flow.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

clyderoad said:


> In some places none can be split and be up to max production by main flow.


Exactly... Population control, gotta know what's the target


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Ian said:


> Exactly... Population control, gotta know what's the target


Feels like a ride on a merry- go- round with this thread.
I'll get off the ride now.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

clyderoad said:


> Feels like a ride on a merry- go- round with this thread.
> I'll get off the ride now.


It amuses me how Beekeepers look for THE answer to avert swarming.
Do you know what your pre flow target strength needs to be?


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

ABK said:


> I'm glad you mentioned that you like the iced tea cold.
> 
> 
> So eventually we found out that the reason you have no swarms is because you sell bees, and split your hives all the time.. Why keep posting about how useless you think swarm prevention is if you know you do the single most guaranteed way to prevent swarms to your hives while everyone else's goal is to have strong production hives that don't swarm?


I never said that I don't have strong production colonies- I do. My honey yields are above average for this area. I happen to live in an area which is a beekeeper's little slice of paradise, in the summer. Long winters, but lots of clover, basswood, and millions of wildflowers and plants nearby in the summer, so my bees do well. 

I pull just enough frames of brood/honey/pollen/whatever, to keep my colonies at the strength I want them to be at. Then, I sell the excess, in whatever form that happens to take (nucs, starter hives, queens if I am raising them at the time, etc). But I don't weaken my hives below the point of productivity in order to do that. I need to know that my hives are productive if I am going to sell bees- who wants to buy bees that can't/won't produce? 

I'm just trying to figure out why everyone isn't doing the things that I do, because I think what I am doing is just basic good bee husbandry. And, if they are doing the same kinds of things, why they don't get the same results with regards to swarming. Because I don't have any secrets regarding how I manage my hives- and that is the point of my original post. Really, the only explanation I can come up with is that maybe, just maybe, I am able to manage my hives a little more intensively than some other beekeepers. But I really don't know. Maybe my success is the result of years of practice built on a good foundation of instruction from some really good, experienced beekeepers? I just don't know. I'm throwing ideas out here. 

I do know that I read over and over again from different beekeepers that they "can't get out to the hives", or, they "got too busy", or, "it rained on my only day off", and they did not get some necessary chore done in the best time frame. That doesn't happen with me because I am able to plan my time around doing what needs to be done when it needs to be done. My husband and I are both home on our farm full time, so with no off-farm jobs to go to, we have a lot of flexibility with our time- maybe that is part of it? Also, while I think of myself as the main beekeeper in our family, because I was keeping bees long before I met my husband, he is very interested in them as well and has helped me enough over the past 12 years that he is certainly capable of, and willing to, lend a hand if/when I need it. Sometimes even if I don't need help, just because he likes the bees. So, having an extra set of hands around during busy times helps a lot in keeping up with things. Or, if nothing else, he can watch our 5yo while I work.

Also, I am not as young as I used to be  I am not trying to reach a goal of 500, or 5000, or 50,000 hives. I keep my numbers down to a level that I know I can manage WELL in a given year.

I really don't have any other explanation. And, while I readily concede that there is a bit of an art or science or whatever to getting one's hives up to optimum strength just ahead of the main honey flow(s), it is also just a juggling act- and maybe I have just gotten good at juggling over the years.

I promise, I'm not trying to pull anything over on anyone here, lol, just sharing experiences. I learn something new all the time from other beekeepers, and if someone else can learn something from me then I feel as if I am contributing to the community in turn.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Ian said:


> And yes I can elaborate on that, but it does not include any type of drone brood management


I am not overly concerned with drones and drone brood. The bees like having drones around in spring and early summer. That's fine with me.

But I am always interested in hearing what other folks do to reduce swarming and increase production.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Ian said:


> It amuses me how Beekeepers look for THE answer to avert swarming.
> Do you know what your pre flow target strength needs to be?


THE answer. Now that's amusing.
I posted here to contribute to the discussion not to seek THE answer to avert swarming. 
You are mistaken to assume I contributed here seeking methods to replace the ones I use to control swarming and
maximizing hive strength for honey production. The methods I use are tried and true in my location. If I needed clarification
of any of the methods already discussed here I would have been sure to ask directly. As you well know, with the exception of the "drone" method, all others mentioned have been practiced for a good long while tweaking only the timing of the manipulation to match the climate.
But for the sake of discussion, comparing different methods from various locations is fun and thought provoking. At least for me.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Anyone tried some sort of swarm management without getting into your hives, That's what I am trying to find. Some sort of insurance when the weather does not cooperate and you cannot work your bees. Otherwise I have been managing colony population and removing Queens and replacing with queen cells at the first hint of swarm preps until this spring. I do not want to go through the kind of swarming I had and every one I know in our side of Virginia had the same problem.
Johno 
PS Ian mites favouring drone brood is not settled science according to BL archives.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The practice of drone brood trapping tells the tale otherwise

I'm just having fun with you Johno, 
But your not going to convince me otherwise, as says my experience


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Look Ian , drone brood trapping is just a means of removing varoa out of the hive, as you certainly do not want to remove worker brood as a means of varoa control. The figures that I have seen is that there is less than 1/6 of the varoa in drone comb. As I have previously mentioned what difference does it make in the long term as the mites will be dealt with in the mid summer to fall treatments. This fallacy about mites preferring drone brood stems from Apis Cerana where the worker larvae dies if it is punctured by a mite therefore the mite cannot breed in worker brood and only in drone brood. So in Apis Milefera mites do breed in both and the infestation of drone to worker brood is purely by chance as the mites are on nurse bees.
Johno


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

It is said mites prefer drone brood over worker brood to a rate of 10:1, as I remember. And for good reason, they reproduce three times greater with that extended breeding time....
Isn't this just common knowledge?! 

>>hence the reason drone brood trapping works so well<<

And it is why increasing your drone production will increase your mite growth rates.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-biotechnical-tactics-ii/


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1607&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=40459 

There is a discussion taking place on the above forum, as you can see if you can open the above link it is from the same person that you mention. Besides the large amount of drones will only be in the hive during the swarming period thereafter you could cull the capped drone frames and take out a larger percentage of mites. All that is by the by all I am concerned about is will the large amount of drones prevent swarming. I do not know what type of bees you guys keep but my Carnis if left to themselves will swarm and swarm again in the same season.
Johno


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I had a brief flirtation with carniolans but ended up getting rid of them for that very reason, couldn't keep them at home.

Pity because other than that the breed has some very good points.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Re; the conversation on B-L about varroa preference. Consider the implications of the factors that poster Jose Villa suggests and read the next one by Oliver.

Perhaps the analogy used to support that drone cell selection is purely accidental is a bit simplistic or applicable to only a narrow range of conditions.

I have used mite findings on drone pupae as a mite count but that is not always perfect it seems.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

"varroa reproduces rather poorly in worker brood, but is nearly three times more successful in drone brood, due to its longer postcapping period. It’s not surprising then, that female mites prefer drone brood by a factor of roughly 10 to 1 (reported figures range from 4:1 – 12:1"

More drone comb equils more mites.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Oldtimer said:


> I had a brief flirtation with carniolans but ended up getting rid of them for that very reason, couldn't keep them at home.
> 
> Pity because other than that the breed has some very good points.


All we use here are Carni. Swarms yes, big populations yes, big crops yes


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

spencer said:


> I'm actually ok if they swarm. This will break the brood cycle, the mite count will drop, a fresh new queen will be made, and the bees have a much better chance of surviving the winter.


Amen Spencer, Amen.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

to just let the bees swarm - well that's crazy in my book - if they look ready to swarm - then split them - that way you control how many bees leave the parent hive


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

uncontrolled swarms provide no benefits that cannot be achieved by other more constructive methods.


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

If I had to watch bees swarming out of one of my hives it would be like watching dollar bills fly away on little tiny wings


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Clairs - that's exactly what it is - weather its honey production or nucs that could have been made and sold


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Ian said:


> All we use here are Carni. Swarms yes, big populations yes, big crops yes


All we use here are Buckfast bees. Swarms no, big populations yes, even bigger crops yes. Preferes to store honey in fresh comb = distant to the broodnest yes. Means broodnest doesn't backfill with nectar oh yes. Easier to work and manage yes.

Whoever worked "buckies" of a good breed, never wants to go back to Carnolians. I cannot understand it. We try to get rid of Carnolians here and you actually want them? These swarm monsters? Huh? You like the extra work and troubles? :scratch:

Don't know how good the US buckfast breeds are, but try a good buckfast, do yourself a favour. 
Choose a monticola line for better wintering in the North.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Sue breeds the non-swarmy carnis with a gentle disposition too.
She also has the Caucasians mixed with the carnis genetics.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> We try to get rid of Carnolians here and you actually want them? These swarm monsters? Huh? You like the extra work and troubles? :scratch:
> Choose a monticola line for better wintering in the North.


We have tough winters, Carnis actually survive. I put a springs worth of work and troubles into swarm managment, and it pays off in dividends 



...and yes, I manage in a single brood nest box.
All we use here are Carni. Swarms yes, big populations yes, big crops YES


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

This brood break story, the math does not work for me. First when the swarm leaves the colony is generally wall to wall with capped brood so there are plenty of mites in there. OK those mites cannot breed for at least 21 to 30 days but the bees also cannot increase so you just have a pause in the ratio unless they are treated in that time frame. If left alone when the bees eventually get their peak a month later than before the break so will the mites so the inevitable is just a delay of 1 month. Randy Oliver gives some math on this story but only the one side of the equation. The swarm actually gets the benefit.
Johno


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## Hive5ive (Nov 21, 2015)

I was surprised to see that a fellow in PA is still seeing swarms. I know it's kinda getting late in the year but I have a hive that just exploded. I may go ahead and split it. I'm not seeing so many mites this year, but again it is a little early for that where I'm at. By the way, I'm right across the Rappahannock from you John....


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Ian I do not see the odds on drones so high, the extra 4 days gives the foundress mite the time to lay 6 eggs instead of 5, now that's not 10 to 1 odds. Hive5ive I get to Lowes over by you from time to time but I don't really like those big cities Like Tappahannock and Warsaw. About those mites, if you can see them it may be too late. After harvesting you must do mite checks from open brood.
Johno


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

John your the only guy I know who argues those points... Good luck bud. In a couple years experience you may come around

Drone comb equils mites  lol


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Hey Ian, there is so much conflicting evidence out there on stuff that has been handed down about varoa that I cannot help but question some of it. Some times I look at common Knowledge like common sense which is not common at all. The masters of this science still teach sugar shake for mite control and will tell you that OA sublimation can only be used once or bees and brood are damaged. I could go on and on about some of the stories but will just leave it there.
Johno


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ian said:


> "varroa reproduces rather poorly in worker brood, but is nearly three times more successful in drone brood, due to its longer postcapping period. It’s not surprising then, that female mites prefer drone brood by a factor of roughly 10 to 1 (reported figures range from 4:1 – 12:1"
> 
> More drone comb equils more mites.


So lets look at a hive that has say 2000 drone cells and and 20,000 worker cells. these numbers are based upon a queen laying 2000 eggs per day for 21 days. Even at a 10:1 drone over worker infestation rate there are at least as many mites in worker brood as there are in Drone brood. At 4:1 the worker brood has over 3/4 of all the mites in the hive. So although mites may produce faster in Drone brood. it is not as common in a hive and they have a lot of ground to catch up before they could overtake the production of mites in worker cells.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

...so, when mite population increase three times faster when reared in drone brood, having more drone brood exponentially increases its population. its the reason we try to keep the brood nest as free as drone comb as possible. It's called good husbandry. 

Daniel, the 10:1 ratio is based on the number of mites which are infested, not based on the number of cells in the hive. 10 will choose a drone brood cell to one a worker cell. If you have 100 mites, up to 90 will gravitate to the drone brood where the multiply the greatest. If there is no drone brood, they will do so in worker brood, and multiply at a slower rate. 

Now toss a couple drone frames in to control swarming...

It's why drone brood trapping works so well. I know commercial guys who do it during the spring. Break apart those combs and they are crawling


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

John , conflicting evidence handed down...how about actual hands on experience. Pretty much any beekeeper will tell you drone comb is a breeding ground


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Ian, Tanging of swarms is a hand me down story, ridiculed by the masters as they tell you bees can't hear. But latest discoveries find that bees can hear through what they call Johnston's organ in the bees antennae. Experiments have shown that mites are partial to extracts of drone larvae over extracts of worker larvae, but you never see mites walking around the comb searching for drone larvae. Sure everyone removes drone comb to remove mites, drone comb is expendable not so worker comb although there is some thought of removing all capped comb during a brood break. I still think there are many varoa mysteries still to be unraveled as time goes on.
Johno


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

> Not all hives can be split. So in the end objective to regulate population growth a number of strategies need to be employed to set the hive up for max production.
> 
> And yes I can elaborate on that, but it does not include any type of drone brood management


I'm all ears, Ian, if you don't mind. :applause:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JoshuaW said:


> I'm all ears, Ian, if you don't mind. :applause:


Joshua, more than happy, I've laid out my strategies more than once, and it's pretty basic. But much of this relys on you to KNOW what your objectives are, and KNOW the seasonal habits of your bees through the year. 
So considering your request was genuine;

My entire spring focuses on one thing, to bring the entire apiary to one common strength, 4 capped brood and a box of bees last week of May. At this point it's that brood which starts off the honey crop in three weeks, and I need them to shift to foraging mode, not swarm mode at that point. Hence the 6 box hives in my previous pic. 
If I get the population balance too small, smaller honey crop. Population tips towards being too big, they head into swarm mode instead of honey mode... I hinge both ways.

So after you determine where you need your hives at a specific time of your production year, work load becomes the next factor. If you have 14 hives...or 1400 hives makes a difference. I work my brood nest once intensively, maybe three times less intensively. Many here work them in manners where the never dig down. 

Out of winter, I assess my strengths. Strong gets a box to split, smaller left to work in singles. Simply put, Mid May the splits are worked to leave 4 frames back and the rest taken as a full split. The non split hives are skimmed a brood frame or so accordingly. Seconds placed on everything, and an equalization round to follow up. 
We manage singles, so the queen is placed in the bottom after a few weeks of wandering uptop JUST as the honey flow begins. We don't see her till next spring. The hive now heading into the flow is left to flourish and bring in that lucrative crop. We typically hold swarming down to 10%, 20% when conditions don't Line up. 

That's the jist. It's all about uniformity, population control and work load. 

Your next step is to figure how all those puzzle pieces fit into your production year.


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

Ian said:


> ... during the spring. Break apart those combs and they are crawling


We Still Don't Know Why the Heck There Are So Many many mites in their hives in the springtime.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>More drone comb equils more mites.

And yet I have a lot of drone comb and very few mites... Things are not always as simple as we think.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

If you have very few mites then that's a mute point


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ian said:


> If you have very few mites then that's a mute point


As if what they are doing to have very few mites is not the issue in this conversation? Seems to me that is the point. Sorry Micheal I guess success is worthless. and to think of all that time wasted.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Daniel Y said:


> As if what they are doing to have very few mites is not the issue in this conversation? Seems to me that is the point. Sorry Micheal I guess success is worthless. and to think of all that time wasted.


:applause:

Go for it :thumbsup:


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Ian said:


> All we use here are Carni. Swarms yes, big populations yes, big crops YES


We are all just practicing, don't we....










We had a lot of rain, too much rain this year, so supers were filled only twice. Usually I get three to five harvests. Next year gonna be a better honey year.


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## Cristian (Jul 28, 2014)

Holy shi.. ! . That is just from one flow or for the whole season ? . If just from one flow , from what flow it is ? . Five harvests ???


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## Overseas_Beekeeper (Jul 19, 2016)

Here, at my place swarming is bad thing, because you lose strength of bee hive and honey. We prevent swarming before that can happen - many different ways. Also race and line of bees is important, for example, Buckfast KB, Buckfast GZ and other Buckfast bees will not swarm quickly as carnica (Celle, Dobra, Karolinka, Sklenar etc). Also Buckfast bees are slower in the spring but they catch up carnica bees and defeating them with number. Buckfast is very "meaty" bee. They can bring more honey, but also they consume more. Different strategy in beekeeping than carnica. For spring honey it's better to have carnica bees, but you have to prevent swarming. In my humble opinion, first thing that you have to do is to give free space for queen to lay eggs, rest is weather and nectar/pollen. Size of the brood chamber is also important.



BernhardHeuvel that looks pro  What line of bees do you have in there?


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Sorry guys, I couldn't resist.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

:thumbsup:


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

That should be a blue ox.


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## Overseas_Beekeeper (Jul 19, 2016)

*Bernhard*, dear neighbour, please share with us, what type of bee is in there? One mother or two?


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