# Varroa test with Alcohol Roll



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

From brood frames is best.

Jean-Marc


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## BeeMoose (Oct 19, 2013)

The brood nest is the best place to obtain your bees for the wash. Take a frame of bee covered brood and shake into a tub of some sort, 
after ensuring the queen is not on that frame. Scoop up the bees using a one cup measuring cup, and place into your wash container.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Test with only half a cup, not a full cup, unless you compensate for the additional bees when comparing your results to the treatment thresholds which are based on a one-half cup sample, which is roughly 300 hundred bees. 

If you use a larger sample size your counts will appear worse (a higher infestation rate) than they actually are. No point in making mite-testing _more_ discouraging!

Enj.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> Test with only half a cup, not a full cup, unless you compensate for the additional bees when comparing your results to the treatment thresholds which are based on a one-half cup sample, which is roughly 300 hundred bees.


:thumbsup:


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## tgriese (Jul 18, 2015)

Thanks for the input guys, I do appreciate the help. I plan on testing this afternoon once the bees are out and about. It is a first year colony from a package ( I know boo hiss on packages) so I have my fingers crossed on a low/no count.


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## tgriese (Jul 18, 2015)

Just did the alcohol wash....and it doesn't look good....got too small of a sample (180 bees ) and had 5 mites....did the first wash with alcohol and second wash with water just to make sure...Treatment level is 3% I am at 2.77%. Suggestions?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I would treat. I'm treating hives now that had 5 or fewer mites/300 bees. But I'm less tolerant of mite counts than many on this forum


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## tgriese (Jul 18, 2015)

Already found a close purchase for MAQS so will have in in the hive by Wednesday. I wanted to say thank you for the help and advice.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

MAQS should do the trick (assuming you have properly low temps). But I would still check about two weeks afterward to make SURE you still have a laying queen. You need to see her (preferable) or at least eggs to know she is unharmed by the MAQS and has resumed a little laying. You don''t want to go into winter with a dead queen! MAQS does a good job killing mites under the cappings, but it comes with a small possibility of queen harm, and almost certainly will cause some loss of winter-bee brood. It's my preferred treatment for August, but not September, for those reasons.

I think with a mite level of under 3% I would consider using just the MAQS one-strip dosing - which is a milder treatment - even though it is supposed to be repeated a month later when it would be too late to do again. 

If you have beekeeping friends ask around and see if someone has equipment to do an oxalic acid vaporization, in a series later in September to compensate for not doing the second, one-strip dose of MAQS. But either way, plan on doing either a single-shot of OAV or an OA dribble sometime in early/mid December to knock out the remaining phoretic mites before winter. I know it sounds appalling to open the hive for an OA dribble in December. I am in northern NY and some people do that here. But if I didn't have OAV equipment that's what I'd do, because I find it so critical to controlling the mites on an annual basis.

Enj.


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## tgriese (Jul 18, 2015)

I am wondering if I am better with the knockdown { http://nodglobal.com/application-usa/ } ( 1 strip now another in 14 days for a total of 21 day treatment ) as the mite levels aren't critical at this point. Daytime temperatures are upper 70's for the next 2 weeks the mid 70's to low 70's into Early October, so I could get a 3-4 week span of proper temps. (Is there any range for nighttime temps?)

The 1 treatment would do its killoff, then the queen would get back to normal... Whereas using the 2 treatment, killoff then queen gets back to normal, treat again, then getting back to normal 2 weeks later. So she has to restart twice. I would be more worried about brood loss replacements. The queen would have a higher survival rate with lower dose treatment, but would she be able to get back to laying soon enough for fall/winter brood as she should start slowing down egg laying for winter. Maybe I am overthinking this....

I unfortunately only know 1 other beekeeper in my area, and he is using Apiguard in his hives (his first time treating too) so borrowing the equipment for OAV isn't an option. Opening a hive in December seems crazy, temps could be daytime highs in 40's or 60's... its Michigan, But I wouldn't count on the warmer temps.

I wonder what the mite kill rate (undercap) is with the 2 strip vs 1 strip (done twice)?

Thank you for the food for thought,
TGriese


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Yeah, that's the issue I have with MAQS in September (mark your calendar to do your tests earlier next year!)

You could call NOD and talk to a product specialist. They are quite nice and will give you the best advice.

I think the need for the two-episode treatment with one strip dosing is that earlier in the year there will be a continued high rate of bee brood for the mites to keep reproducing in. When the bees stop brooding, the mites also are forced to slow down. So a single dose may do the trick at this time of year. You could always do one dose, then do a sugar roll about a week after you take the used strip out, or two weeks after the start of treatment. Combine that with your verificatioin that all is well with the queen. If you've still got too high a number, then you could decide to go for another round, or not. The lower dose (one-strip) is apparently safer for queens and brood. And lower temps make it more bearable for the bees, I think.

No matter which you do, I would still consider doing an OA _something_ sometime after T'giving and before Christmas. Even though the daytime highs then are what you said. (They are here, too, or even worse.) For OAV, you don't have to open the hive, which is a big advantage to me. But you can usually find one day when it's above 45 F when you could open the hive, quickly squirt the OA-laced syrup on the seams and shut them back up in just a few minutes. You don't need to pull frames, or endanger the queen in any way.(See Randy Oliver's website for the best instructions: www.scientificbeekeeping.com.) Killing off nearly all the remaining phoretic mites at that time of year leaves your wintering bees free of them for months. No new mites will get in the hive as neither your bees, or any ferals or neighbors' bees will flying anywhere. And it also means your earliest brood will bee born into an almost mite-free environment, making things much stronger build-up in the spring. It really does make a huge difference.

If doing OA in December is on the agenda, take that into account when planning whatever you're going to do to pack your hive up. I delay my final pack-up until afterward, because I insulate with foam panels.

Enj.


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## tgriese (Jul 18, 2015)

Thanks for all the help. I think I will do MAQS this week and then depending on mite count. Then between Thanksgiving and Xmas do a OAV treatment ( https://oxavap.com/product/varrovap-oxalic-acid-vaporizer/ ...this model should work as I have no plans on getting more than 4-6 hives ever, and my nearby Beekeeper only has 6 so I can go over and test it on his bees first ) I still need to contact NOD and get their input on it all. 

Thanks again for the advice and helpful tips.
Tgriese


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I betting you will really like using the OAV. I still occasionally use MAQS in the summer (when queen loss would not be catastrophic), but I rely on OAV in the Fall, and then again in December, almost exclusively these days. 

My advice is to spring for a Varrox wand if that is at all possible, right from the start. I bought a cheaper one initially and it failed after a couple of seasons. It wasn't really all that much cheaper, so I would have been money ahead if I had just bought the Varrox one, first. I doubt I will ever need another wand, it is that kinid of a permanent tool.

Larry (SNL here on BeeSource) does fabulous customer service!

Enj.


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## tgriese (Jul 18, 2015)

I appreciate the advice, but I am having a tough time justifying buying a $165 vaporizer for 1 hive....{Little voice in head is saying....I know if it saves just 2 colonies in its lifetime it has paid for itself.} I know its best to buy the highest quality one can buy, its just a tough sell with only 1 hive. I am guessing the quality is the same (as they both are made by the same company, one just being more industrial quality)


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

tgriese said:


> I appreciate the advice, but I am having a tough time justifying buying a $165 vaporizer for 1 hive....{Little voice in head is saying....I know if it saves just 2 colonies in its lifetime it has paid for itself.} I know its best to buy the highest quality one can buy, its just a tough sell with only 1 hive. I am guessing the quality is the same (as they both are made by the same company, one just being more industrial quality)


The more expensive one is water-dunkable. And it looks like the bowl is thinner in profile. Dunkable is important for cooling down between hive treatments. The entire bowl can be submerged. The less expensive one has the glow plug integral to the casting. You can't completely submerge it. I have a similar one and I just have to be very careful not to get water into the electrical components. I think both are excellent quality, just a few more nice features on the deluxe model. They all work on the same principle, glow plug heats the aluminum bowl (block).


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Well, for one hive in NC, I'd do an OA dribble for the broodless period treatment this year. Then when that hives comes out of winter strong (as a well mite-treated colony should), I'd split it and then next year buy yourself a Varrox since you'll have two (or more) hives to protect and can use it to give them a series of OAV in September and skip the MAQS.

OAD works as well as OAV for the broodless treatment, and several people I know (commercial guys) use it up here, in December, even though it sounds awful to open the hive then. In NC it would be much less worrisome.

Whatever you do, don't splash out on the wand and then economize on the required personal safety gear. 

The less-expensive version made by the same manufacturer as Varrox was not available when I bought my first wand. The one that failed was something else. 

Enj.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

OP is in Michigan. The troll is in NC.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Oh, gosh, my bad. (I'd still do an OA dribble this year for just a single colony.)

Cervus you are _not_ a troll, even if you are in NC!

Enj.


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## bsharp (Feb 5, 2013)

I'll also throw in for the Varrox--I prefer glass jars, but the shipping on them doubles the price. Luckily for me, I'm within a reasonable enough distance to Walter Kelley to drive up once a year to save on shipping. While I was there getting my jars, I checked out the vaporizers they offered.

I can't speak to the VarroVap, but they carry both the Varrox and the Varrocleaner. The Varrocleaner _feels_ cheap and flimsy, even though at $125 it's hardly what I'd call cheap. I've also heard that the offset design of the bowl can cause the vaporizer to flip over and dump the OA payload into the floor of the hive, meaning a missed treatment if you're unaware that this happened. The extra $40 for the solidly built, dunkable Varrox is a no-brainer if you can compare the two in-person. I'll probably eventually buy a few more to treat multiple hives at once to save time.

Bottom line: if you plan on having more than 1-2 hives, splurge for the Varrox.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

enjambres said:


> Cervus you are _not_ a troll, even if you are in NC!


Thanks. I think...


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> Bottom line: if you plan on having more than 1-2 hives, splurge for the Varrox.


 if you have more than 20 get the JB700


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

tgriese said:


> I appreciate the advice, but I am having a tough time justifying buying a $165 vaporizer for 1 hive....{Little voice in head is saying....I know if it saves just 2 colonies in its lifetime it has paid for itself.} I know its best to buy the highest quality one can buy, its just a tough sell with only 1 hive. I am guessing the quality is the same (as they both are made by the same company, one just being more industrial quality)


I like oxalic when needed. But I like it as a dribble. I experimented with vaporizing it 12+ years ago and wasnt such a fan. Not that it doesnt work, I just don't want to deal with the fumes. I also have lots of experience with formic from all the way back in the days when we only had to deal with tracheal mites. I also like it alot when needed. 

Since I tend to aim more for long term genetic solutions, on one hand I might not even bother treating them. Of course thats a risky plan of action and obviously not right for everyone. From experience with similar mite loads to those you found on a wash this time of year, one formic strip will get you to spring without issue more often than not unless you have bad viruses associated with the mite load. That option is much less risky than no treatment and wouldnt cause me any great concern.

If you want to be even more cautious, you can do a second treatment later this fall. personally, if you make a decision to treat, i'd always suggest mixing it up when possible. since you are using formic and thinking about another treatment, oxalic makes sense. given my dislike of vapor, i'm suggesting dribble. and for your specific location, you can dribble right before Halloween most often. depending on your specific bees and their genetics, they will most likely be virtually broodless then. i'm figuring a dribble application will have you set until spring given your prior formic application and for me it would be overkill but if it makes you more comfortable that makes perfect sense. 

if you have concerns after the first dribble, run alcohol wash. you'll most likely find that you don't have anything for mite load BUT if you do, you will still have time in november for a follow up dose. i wouldnt be messing with them come december when we will be lucky to not have snow and cold. of course there'll be weather breaks then but if you get things in order at end of october there is normally nothing to worry about until next spring/summer.

come next year you might want to take a look at some diversification with some bees that could show less than 3% load in the fall


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## tgriese (Jul 18, 2015)

Put on the MAQS this afternoon. Temp was a warm 67 degrees with forecasts into the mid 70's this week. There wasn't much of a issue using the product (except for the heavily propolised hive bodies. Bugger to get apart.) wasn't as stinky as I imagined. I must have opened some burr comb, as soon as I medicated, and reassembled the hive. Yellowjackets showed up. A few even walked on the entry area of the bottom board. So I proceeded inside (still suited up) and retrieved a flyswatter and went to town on the yellowjackets. Must have been quite a site, a beekeeper swatting bugs right next to his hive in jacket and veil. But ya gotta do what ya gotta do...

Thanks for all the input,

I did contact NOD regarding killoff and winter brood, but they never got back with me. So due to time constraints and work, had to make a decision and went with the Knockdown (1 pack) MAQS. We will see how it goes.


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