# Warre Box Construction.



## B230 (1 mo ago)

Hello again, LJ and thank you for the critique! When we made these boxes, we also put a routered edge on the bottom of wall 'F' and its corresponding side. All of the boxes were fashioned this way. As for the nail situation, we pre-drilled the holes with a slightly larger drill bit for ease of removal. If one turns the box upside down, the slats will (mostly) fall out. I will post a picture soon to show what I've feebly attempted to explain. If this is still wrong, please let me know what I can do for a fix without tearing everything apart.


----------



## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

No one nails the top bars down anymore. The bees soon propolise them in place! I don't even have spacers in my top boxes to get yhe bars equally spaced I do it by eye snd actually make the space round the outer 2 a bit bigger as that will usually be honeycomb.

My hives are static so the boxes are rarely moved.

A small gap above the bars seems non critical, I've never worried about it. Mind you it might be 2 years after bees begin using the box that I first pull combs out.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hi again ...

Nails are not only unnecessary - gravity will hold them in place until the bees take over and propolise them more firmly - but they could well interfere with pulling a comb if you ever need to do this.

So why does a comb need to be pulled ? Well, an inspector would certainly need to pull one or two in order to check for disease. You might want to pull one or two yourself in order to make-up a nuc, and thus make another colony. Another reason would be to donate larvae/eggs from a queenright colony to a colony which has somehow lost it's queen and has failed to make another. Without your assistance that colony would be doomed. It happens.

An over-sized hole and a headless nail is certainly better than being 'hard-nailed' in place, but I'd still recommend that those nails be removed. The small gap above the top-bars can be ignored for now - just see how you get on with that set-up. If separating boxes should become a problem in the future, you now know the solution to adopt in your next build.

Likewise the dark colour paint you've used - for now try to place those hives within an area which gets some shade around midday. Be alert for comb detachment, and if you are unlucky enough for this to happen, again the solution is either more shade, a much lighter colour paint (white preferred), or some form of comb reinforcement.

If you warm to top-bar beekeeping, fine - some folks do, and some folks don't. However, if you should decide that framed beekeeping would be easier, then frames can very easily be used within existing Warre boxes (that's my story) - but you'll need to make your own, of course. 

BTW - if anyone should think I've being a little hard on this guy - I'm not trying to convert anybody, or being critical just for the sake of it - but only trying to help a newcomer to avoid future problems. 
'best
LJ


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

little_john said:


> BTW - if anyone should think I've being a little hard on this guy - I'm not trying to convert anybody, or being critical just for the sake of it - but only trying to help a newcomer to avoid future problems.
> 'best
> LJ


Maybe my biggest mistake in 53 years....Warre hives. Too small, swarm generators, NO FRAMES, incompatible with common sizes, brood combs become honey combs, no excluder, brood in all boxes at harvest time, combs all attached together, you can do the same thing in 8 frame Langstroths with all the benefits of Langstroths. I blame it on reading Beesource for 20 years. Luckily I tested them on clients and made minimal investment for myself. I started supering with Langs in order to not waste time making more Warres.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

odfrank said:


> Maybe my biggest mistake in 53 years....Warre hives. *Too small, swarm generators, NO FRAMES, incompatible with common sizes, brood combs become honey combs, no excluder, brood in all boxes at harvest time, combs all attached together,* you can do the same thing in 8 frame Langstroths with all the benefits of Langstroths. I blame it on reading Beesource for 20 years. Luckily I tested them on clients and made minimal investment for myself. I started supering with Langs in order to not waste time making more Warres.
> .............


In this hive, pictured here, none of the negative issues above are applicable.
Otherwise, it has all the properties of the Warre.
If a manufacturer of a Warre hive (or *any *hive) does not use the word *compatibility *- stay away from them.


----------



## B230 (1 mo ago)

Hello Everyone! The bottom of all of the boxes looks like the picture above. Concerning the color: It was oil paint, free, and I didn't think anything of it at the time, except maybe about the hives I see when going to work. I drive by a field that has about 10 Langstroth hives with metal roofs and weathered wood. They sit very close to the road and are out in the full sun without any trees or protection just baking in the summertime heat. I'm wondering how they survive? Conversely, there are some 200 hives about a 1/2 mile down the road from me that are more sheltered by a circular bamboo thicket. Having some shelter makes more sense to me, and I can paint my boxes white so the wax does not melt. These are all great tips from experienced beekeepers. The nails will come out too. Afterall, I'm not even a 'bee haver' yet. I welcome everyone's tips to start out correct. Thank you all and keep them coming!


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

B230 said:


> They sit very close to the road and are out in the full sun without any trees or protection just baking in the summertime heat. I'm wondering how they survive?


Well, bees _like_ the temperature quite a bit warmer than what humans consider comfortable. Keep in mind that the bees want/need the brood nest temperature to be 94-95F at all times they are rearing brood. And they will, if neccessary, _heat up_ the brood area (by vibrating their wing muscles) until it gets to the temperature they want.

Aside from that, there is some reason to believe that bees tolerate higher temperatures _better_ than pests like small hive beetles and varroa.



> USDA *Ten Best Management Practices*
> Place colonies under the sun. Research has showed that out-hive traps positioned in a shaded part of an apiary trapped more beetles than those exposed to the sun.
> 
> 
> ...


And for varroa vs temperature:








A Test of Thermal Treatment for Varroa: Part 1 - Scientific Beekeeping


Beekeeper-funded Research A Test of Thermal Treatment for Varroa: Part 1 First published in ABJ March 2021 Randy Oliver ScientificBeekeeping.com Last month I wrapped up the report on my testing of mite treatments suitable for application during a honey flow. A number of beekeepers have also...




scientificbeekeeping.com


----------



## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

B230 said:


> I welcome everyone's tips to start out correct. Thank you all and keep them coming!











The frame is designed to function as foundation less, but it can have wax or plastic foundation.








The box can be dimensioned to be compatible with LR.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Be careful with the vented roofs. Rats enlarge the hole under the cap and build nests above the quilt box.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

odfrank said:


> Warre hives. Too small, swarm generators, NO FRAMES, incompatible with common sizes, brood combs become honey combs, no excluder, brood in all boxes at harvest time, combs all attached together,


Well, I think the Warre Hive - or at least the Warre *style *of hive in general - is indeed a good choice of hive ... but needless to say,* in the right location.*

It was designed for 'casual' beekeeping in rural France, where colony sizes and their honey yields are so much smaller than those seen in the southern US. By 'casual', I mean non-migratory, and where the colony is allowed to build-up at it's own pace in the Spring, such that a typical yield of honey in a good year might be around 30 to 50 lbs.*(*)* If pro-active beekeeping is practised, with the colony being stimulated in early spring, then yields of double that might be returned - but I think it's important to bear in mind that the Warre hive was intended principally for peasant French farmers who might have one or two such hives in their back yard as part of a largely 'let-alone' rural self-sufficiency set-up rather than intensive commercial honey production. It isn't a hive suitable for huge yields of honey (say, > 100 lbs) - and was never intended to be.

But - there's no reason at all not to use frames or to have a Queen Excluder in place - from *Warre's 'Beekeeping for All', 12th Ed., page 11:*
_"In the People's Hive (Warré Hive) with a *queen excluder *we have a mechanical means quickly to find the queen without endangering her, and without the beekeeper being particularly experienced.
In *framed hives* there is another method for quickly finding a large number of queens, each day of the warm season, that has always worked well in our breeding work."_

However, I agree with your criticism - the vast majority of Warre beekeepers do indeed appear to run frameless and without a QX - but it really doesn't have to be that way. 

The compatibility issue I agree with, and if there's sufficient motivation then custom 8-frame boxes could be built such that Warre frames be installed cross-wise with regular frames installed length-wise.
LJ

*(*)* see 'Beekeeping for All', 12th Ed., page 3.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

B230 said:


> I drive by a field that has about 10 Langstroth hives with metal roofs and weathered wood. They sit very close to the road and are out in the full sun without any trees or protection just baking in the summertime heat. I'm wondering how they survive?


Quite often by 'bearding' - that is, the vast majority of the bees abandon their combs in order to prevent them from collapsing and the brood from over-heating, and form a cluster *outside* of the hive. 'Bearding' is the name given to this and is a sign of both over-crowding and over-heating (these being related) within the hive which many American beekeepers consider to be perfectly normal behaviour. Whereas I consider this to be a sign of extremely poor beehive design - just one of many bones of contention upon which beekeepers can never agree. 
LJ


----------



## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

little_john said:


> So why does a comb need to be pulled ? Well, an inspector would certainly need to pull one or two in order to check for disease. You might want to pull one or two yourself in order to make-up a nuc, and thus make another colony. Another reason would be to donate larvae/eggs from a queenright colony to a colony which has somehow lost it's queen and has failed to make another. Without your assistance that colony would be doomed. It happens.


One more reason why you might want to have movable comb: It is not at all unusual that I will find a small amount of a brood along the bottom portions of central combs of box #3. In box #2 below it, the outermost frames are filled with honey. With frames I can move the brood down and move the honey up, allowing me to harvest that box.

@B230, That feeder in the second picture in the linked album, as is, is going to drown a lot of bees. You need to add a division board that is a short distance past the board that defines the interior wall of the bee entrance to form a narrow feeding chamber. The division board needs to be flush with the feeder top and it should have a gap that is less than 6mm wide between the bottom of it and the feeder bottom so it forms a narrow chamber. The gap needs to be smaller than a bee so that they can't squeeze through into the syrup chamber after it is emptied. Syrup fills the feeding chamber through the gap under the division board. Inside the feeding chamber you need a bee ladder. Then you need a cover that prevents the bees from climbing over the division board and getting in to the syrup chamber. The cover also lets you fill the feeder without any bees getting out and without opening the interior of the hive. See page 60 of Warré's book Beekeeping for All for a cross section diagram if necessary.

The feeder pictured does not drown bees. The syrup side face of the entrance board is cut at 45° and it forms a ramp that bees use to access the syrup. This one was made from a single 2x4 and a scrap of 1/2" plywood. It holds 3 liters. However, I have departed from using this feeder and I am now using one gallon bucket feeders set over a plywood sheet with a 50mm hole in the middle. I place an empty hive body around the bucket, then put the roof on over that. 








[/quote][/QUOTE]


----------



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

little_john said:


> 'Bearding' is the name given to this and is a sign of both over-crowding and over-heating (these being related) within the hive which many American beekeepers consider to be perfectly normal behaviour.


At least around here, tree cavity dwelling bees beard during similar conditions. That said, I take no exception to the argument that hive design no doubt plays a part in the nature and extents of bearding relative to a natural cavity.

In my own apiary, the Warre colonies with several entrances and highly insulated assemblies beard more than comparable Langstroth colonies with slatted racks.


----------



## B230 (1 mo ago)

JConnolly said:


> One more reason why you might want to have movable comb: It is not at all unusual that I will find a small amount of a brood along the bottom portions of central combs of box #3. In box #2 below it, the outermost frames are filled with honey. With frames I can move the brood down and move the honey up, allowing me to harvest that box.
> 
> @B230, That feeder in the second picture in the linked album, as is, is going to drown a lot of bees. You need to add a division board that is a short distance past the board that defines the interior wall of the bee entrance to form a narrow feeding chamber. The division board needs to be flush with the feeder top and it should have a gap that is less than 6mm wide between the bottom of it and the feeder bottom so it forms a narrow chamber. The gap needs to be smaller than a bee so that they can't squeeze through into the syrup chamber after it is emptied. Syrup fills the feeding chamber through the gap under the division board. Inside the feeding chamber you need a bee ladder. Then you need a cover that prevents the bees from climbing over the division board and getting in to the syrup chamber. The cover also lets you fill the feeder without any bees getting out and without opening the interior of the hive. See page 60 of Warré's book Beekeeping for All for a cross section diagram if necessary.
> 
> The feeder pictured does not drown bees. The syrup side face of the entrance board is cut at 45° and it forms a ramp that bees use to access the syrup. This one was made from a single 2x4 and a scrap of 1/2" plywood. It holds 3 liters. However, I have departed from using this feeder and I am now using one gallon bucket feeders set over a plywood sheet with a 50mm hole in the middle. I place an empty hive body around the bucket, then put the roof on over that.


[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
Hi, JConnolly, This is the feeder design I used. I haven't got around to putting on the screen. For whatever reason, Beesource won't let me link this website. No Drowning, Hive-Top Feeder


----------



## B230 (1 mo ago)

odfrank said:


> Be careful with the vented roofs. Rats enlarge the hole under the cap and build nests above the quilt box.
> View attachment 72155


Thanks for the tip on the rodents finding a place to live. I will staple in some screen over the vents to keep the critters at bay.


----------



## B230 (1 mo ago)

little_john said:


> Well, I think the Warre Hive - or at least the Warre *style *of hive in general - is indeed a good choice of hive ... but needless to say,* in the right location.*
> 
> It was designed for 'casual' beekeeping in rural France, where colony sizes and their honey yields are so much smaller than those seen in the southern US. By 'casual', I mean non-migratory, and where the colony is allowed to build-up at it's own pace in the Spring, such that a typical yield of honey in a good year might be around 30 to 50 lbs.*(*)* If pro-active beekeeping is practised, with the colony being stimulated in early spring, then yields of double that might be returned - but I think it's important to bear in mind that the Warre hive was intended principally for peasant French farmers who might have one or two such hives in their back yard as part of a largely 'let-alone' rural self-sufficiency set-up rather than intensive commercial honey production. It isn't a hive suitable for huge yields of honey (say, > 100 lbs) - and was never intended to be.
> 
> ...


Hello again, LJ. I should've stated that I am not in this for honey production. Heck, I still have a small mason jar that is halfway full that is at least 5 years old. Rather, I decided to give it a try mainly for pollination purposes. In the future, I plan on making Michael Bush's Kenya Top Bar hive, but make it to fit the size bars I already have, that is if everything goes OK. I also had my father cut enough triangles for both of my warre hives which are 2" shorter than the bars I use. This should prevent the honeycomb sticking to the sides of the boxes. I also found .165" screen for the queen excluder, but didn't buy it yet. Is its purpose to keep the queen in the brooding box? If so what happens when it isn't used?


----------



## B230 (1 mo ago)

JConnolly said:


> One more reason why you might want to have movable comb: It is not at all unusual that I will find a small amount of a brood along the bottom portions of central combs of box #3. In box #2 below it, the outermost frames are filled with honey. With frames I can move the brood down and move the honey up, allowing me to harvest that box.
> 
> @B230, That feeder in the second picture in the linked album, as is, is going to drown a lot of bees. You need to add a division board that is a short distance past the board that defines the interior wall of the bee entrance to form a narrow feeding chamber. The division board needs to be flush with the feeder top and it should have a gap that is less than 6mm wide between the bottom of it and the feeder bottom so it forms a narrow chamber. The gap needs to be smaller than a bee so that they can't squeeze through into the syrup chamber after it is emptied. Syrup fills the feeding chamber through the gap under the division board. Inside the feeding chamber you need a bee ladder. Then you need a cover that prevents the bees from climbing over the division board and getting in to the syrup chamber. The cover also lets you fill the feeder without any bees getting out and without opening the interior of the hive. See page 60 of Warré's book Beekeeping for All for a cross section diagram if necessary.
> 
> The feeder pictured does not drown bees. The syrup side face of the entrance board is cut at 45° and it forms a ramp that bees use to access the syrup. This one was made from a single 2x4 and a scrap of 1/2" plywood. It holds 3 liters. However, I have departed from using this feeder and I am now using one gallon bucket feeders set over a plywood sheet with a 50mm hole in the middle. I place an empty hive body around the bucket, then put the roof on over that.


Thank you all for the clear explanations for building a feeder. The one pictured looks easier to build and practical. Yet still, I like the idea of the plywood and the jug under the roof for a feeder. Thank you again guys!!!


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

JConnolly said:


> However, I have departed from using this feeder and I am now using one gallon bucket feeders set over a plywood sheet with a 50mm hole in the middle. I place an empty hive body around the bucket, then put the roof on over that.


You and me both, except I use a smaller inverted quart jar. These are the plywood sheets I use (we call 'em Crown Boards):










And the feeder shells I use with them:










and with insulation in place (the jar also gets an insulated cover):










... and a typical set-up:










BTW - these are the easiest QX's to make:










Just place the plain board underneath one of your boxes and scribe along the internal corners with a pencil - that will give a guide as to where to drill the holes.
In practice plywood QX's work fine. But best to paint the edges a contrasting colour to your boxes, in order to prevent them from being left in place by accident over Winter.  

LJ


----------



## B230 (1 mo ago)

little_john said:


> You and me both, except I use a smaller inverted quart jar. These are the plywood sheets I use (we call 'em Crown Boards):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very nice boxes, crown boards, and queen excluder, LJ! I'll have to save some styrofoam from Christmas packaging! A few questions on the QX. What size drill bit did you use for the holes? They look a little large...won't a queen be able to fit through? Is there screen covering the holes? Thank you for taking the photos! I appreciate your response and help


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hiya - that type of QX can probably best be described as a 'psychological' (i.e. behavoural) barrier, rather than a physical (or 'brute force') type of excluder, such as the wire types which rely upon small gaps (typically 4.2mm) which prevent all but the workers passing through. 

It works by presenting a large area of wood towards the central area where the Queen normally operates. When the Queen encounters such a large area through which there is no obvious route, she interprets this as being an impassible barrier and so retreats back onto the combs, looking there for places to lay. Whereas other bees - workers and drones - are more used to scouting around, and so will eventually find a way past that barrier. In doing so, they leave a 'scent trail' which other bees can follow. But the Queen isn't interested in following scent trails - she has only one thing on her mind - finding empty cells within which to lay eggs, and for that she only wants to search wax combs.

The same principle can be used to create a QX within a Horizontal Hive - by the use of a dummy frame (or 'follower board') which usually has a gap at both top and bottom and sometimes even around the sides. But it's the large expanse of solid wood in the centre which presents itself to the Queen as being an impassible barrier.

Such plywood QX's are usually fine to keep the Queen out of the honey area, but are *not *recommended to keep two Queens apart, as in this particular case both Queens are usually* (*)* motivated to seek out and kill the other, and so will indeed 'scout around' until they find a way through any barrier in order to wage war upon their adversary. Their normal 'egg-laying agenda' is put on hold until they can find and kill their rival.

Examples of plywood QX's can be seen at: Queen Excluder Types Used In Bee Hives - bottom but one graphic.

I would have preferred to have made 12mm holes, but the smallest hole drill I had was 16mm, so I used that. It works ok. But no screen - bees need to pass through those holes.
'best,
LJ
*(*)* - there are exceptions ...


----------



## B230 (1 mo ago)

little_john said:


> Hiya - that type of QX can probably best be described as a 'psychological' (i.e. behavoural) barrier, rather than a physical (or 'brute force') type of excluder, such as the wire types which rely upon small gaps (typically 4.2mm) which prevent all but the workers passing through.
> 
> It works by presenting a large area of wood towards the central area where the Queen normally operates. When the Queen encounters such a large area through which there is no obvious route, she interprets this as being an impassible barrier and so retreats back onto the combs, looking there for places to lay. Whereas other bees - workers and drones - are more used to scouting around, and so will eventually find a way past that barrier. In doing so, they leave a 'scent trail' which other bees can follow. But the Queen isn't interested in following scent trails - she has only one thing on her mind - finding empty cells within which to lay eggs, and for that she only wants to search wax combs.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the explanation, LJ. I had no idea that the queen excluder could work and allow the other bees enter and leave by simply drilling a few 12mm holes along the corners of a lid. With of course the exception being if the queen picks up the scent of another queen and enters into assassination mode. Quite fascinating that having only one queen, she can be tricked to stay put.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

B230 said:


> had no idea that the queen excluder could work and allow the other bees enter and leave* by simply drilling a few 12mm holes along the corners of a lid.*


Do keep in mind that IF the queen is totally blocked out of laying by, say workers storing the nectar into the brood nest - the queen can very well go looking for open cells and may traverse those holes.
It happens. 
It happened to me (technically the queen walked under/around the follower board).
So do not presume there is a guarantee in this method - it mostly works (it does not absolutely work).


----------

