# Problems with Queens this year?



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I have had problems this year with splits and hives rearing their own queen successfully. Has anyone else had this problem this year? The weather has been a big problem with a cold wet spring, and a very wet summer so far. 
I have (3) hives that just cant get it done this year after several attempts. My final solution is to get a nuc going and swap the colony out with a nuc and shake all of the remaining bees out.
I have hived a number of swarms that are already superceding their swarm queens. I know this happens all of the time, however half of this years swarms are in the process of superceding their queens.


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

If the virgins mated in May or most of June, they just about had to mate in the rain. I raised some queens this spring and put the cells in 2 frame mating nucs, and only about half produced successful queens. 

I'm new at this, so perhaps that is normal, but I'll blame the weather anyway.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

So far-knock on wood- all of the queens but one has successfully mated. I have seen more supercedure cells though, and have had a problem keeping those big black ants at bay.


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## King bee apiary (Feb 8, 2005)

I've had two large hives go queenless this year with no luck getting them to raise queens.Bought 13 packages this spring,6 of these killed their queens and will not raise a queen.
No not laying workers,no brood/drone or workers.Have added brood/eggs/larva,still no luck at all...
You blame the rain,I'll blame the drought and heat.


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

>had a problem keeping those big black ants at bay.

How do you keep those big black ants at bay? They can be hard on my weak hives, and they are always in my Sundance pollen trays.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"How do you keep those big black ants at bay? "

The only way I have found so far is to keep the hives strong, or move the weak ones away from that yard. You can build fancey stands that have the feet in oil cans, but that seems like a big time consuming, expensive job if you have over 20 hives.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I did have some major problems with most of the 13 packages I got through Calif. in April. Wayyyy to wet for the queens to mate but the lovely owner sent them out anyway.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Greetings . . .

The question posted by MountainCamp brings about another question









We often hear that "queen problems" are caused by "mite chemicals", especially Fluvalinate and Coumaphos. What are the effects of "natural" products like essential oils?

[ July 22, 2006, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Dave W ]


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I do not think there is any with the exception of over dosing on esential oils. Some people make the mistake of putting essential oils in syrup. The syrup will float to the top and kill the bees by overdosing.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

The weather sounds like the likely suspect mountaincamp, although I have a working hypothesis that hives that are experiencing serious mite problems seem to have to supersecede the queen twice before a queen is accepted.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

I have had varroa 25 years and I have not noticed any extra problems from mites. Once I have seen that just emerged queen has mite on it. Now I use oxalic acid trickling and I have no queen losses.

In Finland beekeepers have reported extra supercedure during rainy summers. Last summer was a such.

Another important issue is the age of mated queen. According Australian research 80% of queens will be changed if queen is given to new hive one weak after mating. If queen is given over 2 weeks after mating 80% will remain in hive.

If queen are posted via air or ground 30% will be replaced.

.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I have to wonder how many queens are sold each year that are just plain poor queens? If the breeder selling these queens had used them in his own hives, how many would he replace? Proably alot of them. Of the 25 queens we have raised this year, none of them have been replaced by the bees. Of the ones I bought, 50% have been replaced, and of the ones I bought last year 95% have either been replaced, or failed during the winter, and it was a mild winter. If you only lose the queen, your out about $15, but, if you lose the coloney your out $125-150 bucks, that's a substanial loss. I suggest raising your own queens, and checking the brood pattern before introduction into your hives.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Peggjam;

When I attended the Queen rearing class last year at O.S.U. that was the general reason people were there because they had so many queens being replaced by the hive and as Sue expalined about grafting at the proper age and other things I can understand why the comercial queen producers have so much failuer.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

If your selling queens to make a living, it seems like you would want to sell good, quality queens, not whatever you can stick in a cage and ship out. I for one will not buy anymore queens unless I have too. I have had such poor luck with them lasting any amount of time, that it just seems that I should raise my own, which we did this year. I am happy with the queens we have raised so far.


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## cmq (Aug 12, 2003)

<We often hear that queen problems are caused by mite chemicals, especially Fluvalinate and Coumaphos. What are the effects of natural products like essential oils?>

I can only attest to my observations, but since going away from the mite chemicals I have noticed a marked increase in the quantity of sperm as well as the numbers of mature drones possessing sperm. For I.I., collecting 
sperm is a very tedious operation and can
often be the source of queen mortality (bacterial infection). I have been
weaned from the mite chemicals and
do not intend to return there.
My belief is that effective soft or organic treatments, along with selection techniques are the way to go in the long run. It is not natures way for a pathogen to exterminate
the entire population of its host. Doing so would ultimately lead to its self-destruction.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

In April we received a letters from both Strachan and California Queen breeders that the breeding season was very poor and to expect delays in queens. Poor breeding due to rain and cold was mentioned. We had considerable supercedure this year (from those queens) and very unusual swarming. Hives with 4 and 5 frames of brood and 5 foundation were building swarm cells and actually swarming. Of course following the cold wet spring was a month long dearth in our area. Most of the hives have rebounded well but it is not unusual for us to find a queenless hive in a yard with no apparrent cause(swarming, manipulations, by us, queen acceptance etc.) We've combined several of these stragglers over the past month due to problems raising new queens as well as order more. The later queens from Califonia have been fine. Queens have been the single biggest factor for us this year in Mgt. Our percentage of loss and supercedure were similar to peggjams purchased experiance.

Interestingly enough a friend who just went out this year has been complaining about supercedure for a couple of years. This is the 1st. year we've seen this problem. Is it weather or are we dealing with a growing problem with commercially bred queens or chemical related loss?


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"Is it weather or are we dealing with a growing problem with commercially bred queens or chemical related loss?"

Proably both are big factors, but what doesn't help is the "if you see an egg, cage and ship" mentality. Alot of these queens never should have been shipped out.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>growing problem with commercially bred queens or chemical related loss . . .

Is it a "growing" problem that's Varroa related?

Do hive's w/ Varroa produce fewer drones?
Does drone trapping and "excess" drone brood removal affect overall drone population?
Are mite-infected drones "up to" mating?

How much "poor mating" is caused by Varroa?


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I really think this year the queen produces in California really screwed up....they put out crapy queens. I had the same exeriance with as Joel. However, insteado f recieving a letter from the queen producer, they sent the queens and packages anyway. THIS IS A LOT OF CRAP CRAP CRAP. I invested around 800 dollars in a packaged bee company and they sent crap. I ent a letter and talked with the guy and he said all of his packages and queens were good and that they keep a queen from every batch. BS BS BS.... out of the 13 packages in one yard, I had to replace 11 queens.... from some extra queens he sent. those scuked too. I spent more money on russian queens. I couldnt afford to requeen all of the bad packages.....

so that is why I am looking to try to over winter the nucs. Its either try my hardest to get the nucs ready and through winter or take the loss right now and be pissed off.... i am still pissed off at the company in califnoria.

IT IS SIMPLE BIUSINESS.... SEND OUT A PRODUCT THAT IS GOOD. SEND OUT CRAP... AND YOU AND YOUR BUSINESS ARE CRAP. 

SIMPLE.....


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

I am very sorry for your losses, Chef.
And I don't want to come across as callous, HOWEVER:
If you simply compare the acceptance percentages and failure rate between hobbiests and commercial outfits the answer is staring you in the face.
In Oregon, if you add up all of the "lost" queens in 1 - 4 hive outfits, the sum total would exceed that of many large commercial operations, I'm quite sure.
And this year has been the worst.
Why?
Early disruptions to the hive after introduction.
It is always the same story," I checked the queen on the second, third, fourth, fifth, day after introduction..........
After queen introduction, a hive must be left ALONE until there are all forms of brood and the pherimones that accompany them.
If you allow the hive to become ballanced with eggs, larvea, and sealed brood from the new queen, hive disruptions should be tolerated by the bees.
Prior to that, they are prone to blameing any and all disturbances on the queen.
SOOOOOO,
You drop the queen. you place a single layer of masking tape over the candy end and poke a tiny hole in the tape, NOT THE CANDY!!!!
She is released in 3 - 4 days.
Three days later, her eggs hatch into larvea.
So now you are at 6 to 7 days with eggs and larvea.
How many days before sealed brood?!!!
Most queen introduction problems that I have seen, heard about or witnessed are due to early disruption of the colony after queen introduction.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

[ July 31, 2006, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Rob Mountain ]


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I know this wont make you feel any better Chef, but I dont think you can compare raising queens to cooking.Queen mating is totally dependent on having decent weather and we just didnt have it this year in Ca.In fact, it was the worst ever.I received a few hundred queens from Heitkams during the same time period and most of them turned out ok.I could have canceled my order knowing that the weather was terrible(some did)but chose to take my chances.Most probably will disagree-but I take the view that I am not paying for queens so much as I am hiring someone I trust to raise them for me at a time I cant do so myself.On average over the years ,this has paid off .


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

[ July 31, 2006, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Chef Isaac ]


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

I have to completely agree with Loggermike.
Of all of the queens that I purchaced, somewhere around 120 were from Heitkams. And one order was among is first batches this year.
As usual, they were fine queens. I believe that Heitkams are among the top-ten quality queen producers. I cannot say enough good about them.
In respect to Pat Heitkam; there is no one that I respect and admire more than him for his ongoing contribution to our industry.
I am troubled deeply to see his fine name battered around in the manner that it is here.
Chef, I hate to cross you. I have read lots of your posts and wish there were more new beekeepers with your fire and enthuseasim.
I am sure that you will become an outstanding beekeeper if you keep going. BUT:
The problems that you have had, AS YOU DESCRIBED THEM, are most likley, beekeeper error.
God knows I have made my share of errors, Chef, don't get me wrong. But I took personal responsibility for them.
Please Chef, E-mail the webmaster and ask that this entire thread be deleted.
Pat Heitkam and his fine family deserve way more respect than this.
Respectfully,
Harry Vanderpool


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

Ok enough Pat bashing.

Pat is a very good friend of mine and let me mention that he has made a huge contribution the USA beekeeping industry. 

If anyone has a personal issue with Pat Heitkam as moderator of this section of Beesource I would ask that you have the decencies to contact Pat personally and not attack him in this manner. Remember throwing mud  You loose ground.

Thank you very much and I would appreciate all members cooperation.

Rob Mountain


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

We installed many Heitkam queens (hundreds) and were pleased with good acceptance.

We did have some drone layers *in the first batch* (unusual) which were mated under poor conditions but bees returning from California needed split and Pat has early queens (if you place the order the year before).

Our bees go into apples within days of returning from California.

If not split many hit the trees (some did anyway).


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Please do not get me wrong, I respect Pat. I know it might not seem like I do but I am just pissed off a little because money is an issue. Our club bought over 400 packages and 75% of the people had the same experiance as I did. 

I am a BIG stickler for quality as I have to be. There is a saying in the industry that if one person doesnt like the food or experiance, they will tell ten others. 

I respect him and admire what he has done for this industry, I truely do. He was nice enough to talk with me about this issue as well as resolve the issue. 

I do take some responsabiltiies for what happen but as I clearly stated, some things just didnt add up. I am sorry for that. 

I did not have a good experiance this time. I learned a lot. One thing is not to invest the money I have in just one producer. Case in point, the packages from Heitkams I did not care for but the packages from anotherp roducer bought through a supply house in our area cake out GREAT. 

I apologize if it seems like I am bashing on Pat. The issue is not Pat... it is a quality issue. Like I said, I would have liked the order to be pushed back more than sending out a product that might be inferior.


Harys right, I am somewhat of a new beekeeper. 

I do have respect for Pat and again, I apolagize if it seems like I am bashing on him.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

TO EVERYONE:

I would like to personally apologize if it seems like I was bashing Pat. I was frusterated at the time. I take ownership that I am somewhat of a new beekeeper and maybe did not do everything right but I do have my own opinion on this issue. It wasent right of me to bring up my past experiances with Heitkams. 

I did not mean to offend anyone. I hope everyone can forgive me.


Isaac


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

>>>I would like to personally apologize if it seems like I was bashing Pat. I was frusterated at the time. I take ownership that I am somewhat of a new beekeeper and maybe did not do everything right but I do have my own opinion on this issue. It wasent right of me to bring up my past experiances with Heitkams.
I did not mean to offend anyone. I hope everyone can forgive me.
Isaac<<<

Well Chef, maybe you have a few things to learn about beekeeping, <like all of the rest of us> but you now provide a good example of a good human.
Beekeeping is frustrating at times for all of us. There is no one perfect around here.
Keep up the good work!


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

Thank you Chef. Much appreciated. 

Rob Mountain


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Another post concerning early Golden Rod got me to look closer at the numbers for May and June.

These are for Albany, NY 
2006/Normal/ Diff
May 5.31 3.67 +1.64
June 8.74R 3.74 +5.00 

I did splits for Mid May thru June mating. They needed rain coats this year to get it done.

A few of the colonies were timed right and are doing very well. For the others, I have (I Think) corrected all of the queenless issues for this year.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

MoutainCamp: 

Im not sure what your numbers mean. Can you explain? Thanks

Jean-Marc


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

The numbers are the rain differental:


"These are for Albany, NY 
2006/Normal/ Diff
May 5.31 3.67 +1.64
June 8.74R 3.74 +5.00"

Total Rainfall for May: 5.31" Average RF=3.67 Above Average for 06=+1.64"
Total Rainfall for June: 8.74" Average RF=3.74" Above Average RF=+5.00"

Hope I got that right!


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

the chef sezs:
I did not mean to offend anyone. I hope everyone can forgive me.

tecumseh raise his hand and sezs:
you are forgiven my son. go in peace, but do remember to place an offering in the collection plate. a-men for the b-men.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

As a VERY new beekeeper, let me add to the data on this thread. Like many first year beekeepers, I ordered and received a 3# package along with a queen. They were hived in May and the weather was the rainiest it has been in years. The river in town flooded over, etc. As I recall, we had nearly two weeks of rain, virtually non-stop. As a result, I believe that my bees got off to a slow start.

Since then, the hive always seemed "slow" to me. Finally, I starting swapping un-drawn frames of foundation with capped frames that were closer to the brood nest. That seemed to get things going (although it may have been coincidental). At one point I saw supercedure cells and was quite surprised. On another forum here at this site, someone mentioned that the laying pattern of the queen looked spotty.

Just a week or so ago, I opened the hive only to find two queens side by side. Here is a pic:


http://www.ravenseye.net/2_queens.jpg

So, it looks like maybe my original queen was not quite up to par as well. 

By the way, I'm going to open the hive later today and see if I can still find both of them. I've been told that it might not be that uncommon for two queens to be in the hive together for a while. 

Thought I'd mention this and also say thanks for all the knowledge that is shared here!


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## AndrewSchwab (Dec 9, 2005)

Ravenseye
That is a GREAT PICTURE


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Ravenseye . . .

Your photo needs to be on the cover of a bee mag (hint, hint).


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Thanks Andrew....the credit goes to my son! Dave, I'm too new at this to even know where to send the pic. You're free to use it if you think someone might appreciate it though!


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