# Did feeding/cost of feeding discourage you?



## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

This is really remedial, but I need to know before signing up for any bees or building any equipment.

I bought a used top bar hive to try to raise some bees "naturally." The hive was cheap ($25) and to be honest, it was an impulse buy, since it knew NOTHING. Turns out, it's too small. Fine, I can make others.

Since then, I've been reading a lot on forums and bought two books for beginners, which just arrived (Morrison's Homegrown Honey Bees, and Crowder's Top Bar Beekeeping. 1/2 through Homegrown.)

I'm reading comments/stories about people feeding their bees for months. Big bags of sugar. Gallons and gallons of syrup, which must take some time to make, since it's super saturated. And that's for one or two hives.

This seems very discouraging to me. I wanted to make this a more "natural" exploit, but feeding bees gallons of sugar water doesn't seem (to me) like its doing the bees any favors. Seems it would make them more dependent upon you (me). And I thought the hummingbirds sucked it down...that's nothing.

And, it's expensive. I'm starting to thing, "$25 for the hive, $30 for the books, then comes the big bucks. Maybe don't go down this road before it becomes too all-involving." Building a couple more (and larger) top bar hives is not a big deal, and I like building. It's the potential on-going time and expense which is starting to turn me off.

Your thoughts?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

if you start your hive in the spring of the year when there is a good nectar flow going and then leave enough honey for them it's most often not necessary to feed.

this hobby can get very expensive with no promise of a return on investment or at least a long time before you see any return.

if you haven't already, try to meet up with other beekeepers in your area and visit them while they are working their hives to see if it's something you will enjoy getting into.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

In my area you can throw bees into any box in spring, never feed a drop, and produce substantial honey crops. You will have to consult local beekeepers in your area about feeding requirements there.


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## Defaultcatch (Dec 13, 2013)

I agree with springtime startup and try a local bee meeting or facebook group. Ask a general question if you can go out and watch someone work there hives. You will get 100 different answers to the same question, just listen to them all and find your own way with the knowledge you have learned from the many before you. I am new so I cannot say my bees will live past winter or if I did something wrong but I didn't feed and don't plan too as bees have been living thousands of years without us feeding them. I plan to pull honey off as the flow is starting next spring so everything they made this year will be what they winter with. Like I said, I cannot say this will work but its what I am going to do. As far as the books check out your local library, they should have a number of books. Also Google Play has books as well for free, they may be 100 years old but they still have good information. Just my 2 cents and it may not be worth even that...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Joining a club and helping someone else work their bees for a while is good advice to consider before you commit. I have been jumped on for tempering some rather over optimistic advice about costs and time commitment. Your potential flow for your specific area will have a lot of influence on how much you can reasonably expect to harvest without feeding. In my area a first year hive *may* produce some honey but if you take any you will most likely need to feed to survive the winter. In some areas and some bee genetics, raising bees "naturally" presents a challenge even for experienced beekeepers.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Beekeeping can be done on the cheap according to some, but if you get hooked.....


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"Your thoughts?"

Whether and how much you feed depends in part on your goals and your philosophical approach to beekeeping. In your general location and with your concerns, I would get local bees, not over harvest, and not feed them except in extraordinary circumstances. As a matter of good form and stewardship, I would check them in very early spring to make sure that they had sufficient honey stores and feed them a little then if they didn't. Others will disagree.


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

Thank you for the replies. It sounds like, since I am in the southeast, I might not have to feed, or not much, especially if I'm not greedy. That's a whole lot better than gallons of syrup every week. I'll try to find some local folks to ask, too.

I don't know how the "naturally" part will work. It kind of came along with the top bar idea, which came from an interest in trying this hobby, but not wanting to lift supers after I hurt my back (3 months now, sheesh.) Then, reading about CCD and other ailments, started me thinking more about so-called natural methods like letting the bees choose their own comb size for what they want, not using chemicals which can help create super bugs, etc.

I read about Varroa, which some say might be less of an issue with small cell size; and hive beetles, which seem even worse than Varroa, but maybe a hive design without hiding places will let the bees keep them at bay. A top bar fit both of these, and it looked cheap to get going. Then I read about all the syrup feeding, and here we are.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

No - it did not discourage me as I knew from my research that feeding would most likely be called for.

You'll need to decide what your motivation is in keeping bees. 

I am not familiar with the Morrison Book and am only familiar with the Crowder book by reputation which is good. There are lots of junk books out there on beekeeping - making money off of people wanting to get into the hobby seems a common get rich quick scheme.

Talk with other local TBH Beekeepers. There is a Facebook Group for North Carolina Top Bar Beekeepers - try posting your concerns there and seeing what the responses are. There are people who keep bees successfully in the natural way you seem to aspire to - to do so regularly and in a different geographic area may prove difficult. As you continue with your research be skeptical. Many new beekeepers start as dedicated TF beekeepers and some (I'm tempted to write many but that is a sense more then something I can prove) of them fall by the wayside when their hive dies out. The general consensus around here is that to be successful in TF beekeeping it is prudent to start with bees already known to survive without treatments. These will not be the cheapest bees on the market.

Best of luck to you. I hope you decide that keeping bees is right for you. I hope too that you go into beekeeping with your eyes wide open. The research you've done so far leads me to be optimistic for you - but by all means, find someone local to you to shadow and work with!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

eb,

you've touched on a lot of topics in your last post, and you have probably seen by now that there are widely varying opinions out there.

if you decide to proceed you will discover that your experiences may or may not be the same as what you have read about or heard others report. the learning curve can be steep, but to me that's been a big part of what i have enjoyed about keeping bees.

one thing you might consider trying, and this is in keeping with a natural approach and keeping costs low, is trying to trap a swarm next spring. you can search the forum here for the how to's ect.

your chances of being successful with a natural approach will be better if you can catch a swarm from bees that are living in the wild and have survived the winter.

i've not tried this, but i think you could locate such bees by mixing up some sugar syrup with a few drops of lemongrass oil or something similar and putting it into a chicken feeder. you could place this around remote areas where you think feral bees may be living and see if you attract any to your feeder. it would be good to find out from your local beekeepers where their beeyards are so you can avoid doing this close to those.

if you attract bees to your feeder, the next step would be to place a trap out (which could be your top bar hive) and see if you end up catching a swarm. 

another approach would be to see if you can find someone in your area who is keeping bees off treatments and purchase your bees from them. someone like this would also be your best resource for advice on how to be successful keeping bees this way.


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## SpringGreen (Jun 26, 2014)

I knew it would likely involve some feeding, no matter the type of hive or whether or not I used small cell, etc. There are just certain times of the year here in my area that make it difficult for a first year hive to survive without some help. So I fed...but NOT like I'd read I would need to, which was nonstop from April to September. I fed until they filled the minimum number if frames recommended for my area and then let them go...and they filled up a whole lot of frames, I made splits, and they filled more frames. I think that was only a matter of some weeks. Sure wasn't gallons and gallons though.

My goal is TF, but if I need to use a little bit of something here and there to keep my bees going until I can get numbers up, then that's ok by me. It's a process. 

I enjoyed Crowder's book a great deal. 

This has been an expensive hobby. I was given a suit and smoker and a book. I purchased hives, then bees, then added various bits of equipment, had to buy a new suit when the zipper went bad in the first one, bought some more books, added a couple more hives...yeah...it costs....but I have sold a little bit of honey, and all the proceeds go back into the bees. I simply accepted that this hobby costs money for now, and I might never break even.

Sugar was pretty cheap at Sam's/Costco. $11 for 25 lbs.

ETA: making it isn't too bad. I boil the water (found it helps it not ferment) on the stove, take it off the heat and dump in water and stir. 30 seconds later, it's syrup. The hardest part was figuring out how to get it from the pot into something I can easily carry to the hives and pour from, which was a milk jug. A measuring cup is good enough, and I only feed what each nuc takes overnight to prevent robbing. I don't feed my big hives.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Haven't fed for years. I already took off 135# or so from 3 hives. THIS years hives from cutouts. All depends on your area and mother nature.


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

AD, SP, and others, thank you for your frank and detailed replies. I will seek some local experience before diving in.

Andrew, if I considered my motivation for everything I got interested in, I would sit and do nothing. Beekeeping seemed interesting after I found I didn't need to lift heavy weights. Reading further, and becoming more alarmed with the decline of the bees, it seemed there was a possibility of being part of a solution to a problem vs. part of the cause of one. Perhaps that's naive. At the very least, I'm much more aware of the issues. I'm not looking at it to make money, nor to harvest large amounts of honey.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

EarlyBird:
Beekeeping is what you make it. Below is a rough run down of my costs to date this year, we use Langstroth hives we built ourselves from salvaged lumber. I'm hopeful that we will harvest enough honey this year to pay for and break even on the bees and frames. The figures below do not include the cost of processing equipment that we look at as an investment into the future(Extractor etc.). 

2 packages 342.00
20 drawn brood comb 80.00
70 drawn honey comb 280.00
20 frames c/w foundation 50.00
10 frames c/w foundation 45.00
25 sheets foundation 25.00
Sub Total=============822.00

2 bee jackets 72.00
1 hive tool 8.00
1 smoker 39.00
1 veil 25.00
1 frame lifter 10.00
1 bee brush 3.00
12 queen cages 3.00
Grand Total==========982.00
Does not include costs for building wooden ware, staples,glue etc. and also does not include 15 frames of foundation that are now drawn comb worth 4.00 each so 60.00 should be removed from total.

We live quite a bit farther north than you so that is why there is such a big investment in drawn comb. Talking with our bee supplier when we bought our bees he recommended that we start our packages on drawn comb, otherwise there would be no honey crop or even the bees surviving. Besides, we will be using that comb for years to come so it's not like we're destroying it because we don't crush and strain. There just is not enough season up here to start packages on foundation and if anything at all goes wrong that hive ain't gonna make it. As you can see everyone has different criteria and plans.


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

Colino said:


> As you can see everyone has different criteria and plans.


Yikes, I guess so! Thank you for the detailed reply. I can see this becoming like the shutterbug... I was hoping for a single hive with some hygienic bees.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

EarlyBird said:


> Yikes, I guess so! Thank you for the detailed reply. I can see this becoming like the shutterbug... I was hoping for a single hive with some hygienic bees.


Then if that is what you want you should pursue that. It will become whatever you make it. Also I didn't mean to frighten you. You have to remember too that it is more expensive up here in Canada because we can't access inexpensive bees from the U.S. ours were shipped halfway around the world from New Zealand. To further increase costs, most bee equipment has to be imported from the U.S.
Colino


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

EarlyBird said:


> I can see this becoming like the shutterbug...


 yes, it can be that way.

i got into this quite by accident after adopting a few orphaned colonies that had been abandoned on my property.

sounds like you've done a fair amount of homework already and you've got the advantage of having the winter to continue your research should you decide to proceed.

regarding the demise of the bees, you may find that your perception of that has been influenced by media bias. for some reading on another perspective on that, scroll down to the bottom and check out the series on 'what's happening to the bees':

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/articles-by-publication-date/

there is a lot of other useful info on randy's site as well.

here is another great resource for general knowledge, and in particular for a natural approach to beekeeping:

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

lastly, most will advise that you have at least two hives, the reason being that you can use resources from one to save the other in certain circumstances.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

EarlyBird said:


> And, it's expensive. I'm starting to thing, "$25 for the hive, $30 for the books, then comes the big bucks. Maybe don't go down this road before it becomes too all-involving." Building a couple more (and larger) top bar hives is not a big deal, and I like building. It's the potential on-going time and expense which is starting to turn me off.
> 
> Your thoughts?


I suspect the fact you were able to pick up a hive for $25 has caused you to enter the hobby with unrealistic expectations about how cheaply it can be done. Expect to invest more in some better equipment & get yourself set up right. Once you have what you need for the desired number of hives, expenses can stop there if that's your plan. Other than possibly for feed. All animals, bees included, have to eat. If the hive is newly set up, or has had too much honey removed, and there is no forage around for them to renew supplies, they have to be fed. This does not indicate some fault with the bees. In many areas though there is enough bee forage and once the beekeeper figures out how much the bees are likely to collect and when, he or she can manage the bees accordingly and not have to feed supplementary sugar. Many beekeepers do though, they may choose to harvest x amount of honey and give the bees sugar to make the difference, it's just a management decision.

But the other biggy is time. Not so much for actually running the hive, but for research. I sell bees, but actually turn away some new customers wanting to start. While talking to them I can tell they are not willing to spend the time learning how to care for their hive, they think bees are as easy as the chickens they keep and will not put in the time. I know it will end in tears, and possibly me getting phone calls and eventual blame, so I don't sell them the bees. At first at least, you need to be willing to commit almost limitless amounts of time to learning. Bees are complex creatures and humans do not understand them intuitively, we have to learn to understand them.


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> At first at least, you need to be willing to commit almost limitless amounts of time to learning. Bees are complex creatures and humans do not understand them intuitively, we have to learn to understand them.


There is no problem with that. I enjoy learning. I'm also fortunate to have the Fall (at least) before I need to make a decision about ordering a package.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

EarlyBird said:


> There is no problem with that.


OK well that's the main thing, you will likely do well.

When you get your package, be aware they come without the stores they have saved in their hive. So when you install them, you will have to feed initially. The main thing is to get the new package up and running and producing a new generation of bees as fast as possible. To do this, the bees need a source of carbohydrate to turn into wax for comb building, so the queen can lay eggs and get replacement bees underway. Sugar syrup is ideal for this and the new package should be fed liberally for the first few weeks. Then feeding is reduced or stopped, to gauge whether they are able to sustain themselves from what flowering plants are growing in the area.


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## SpringGreen (Jun 26, 2014)

I think it is great you are asking such questions myself. I have a friend who is all excited that I have bees and came over to look at them...but when I started talking about the learning aspect, how much time I spend reading versus actually looking in the hive, his eyes glazed over. I kind of hope he doesn't get bees after that...the bees will suffer because he won't take the time to learn to understand them. But for somebody who likes to read something during those down moments in the day...like on the train, during lunch, whatever...and has a little bit of time weekly or so to spend outside, beekeeping can be a lot of fun. 

I think it's also a good idea to decide how many hives you can realistically handle. 20 or more as a hobby is fine for some folks, but I know I'll top out time-wise with 5-6 full sized hives. 

My starting costs were $550 for the hive equipment with all accoutrements and starter tools, $99 for the new suit, $160 for the bees and don't know how much for the other stuff I found I "needed" as we went along. I have noticed that many purchases are one time deals...like woodenware, while a chunk of change at once, can last a really long time. It's just coughing up that big amount of money at once kinda hurts 

I think you could do fine...your writings sort of remind me of what thoughts were rolling through my head 2 years ago, when I started thinking about getting bees...how much money and time are we talking here, what does it entail...took me too long to work up the guts to just do it..

If you do find it isn't for you, I personally know someone who sold two strong hives early last summer for exactly what she had invested..she lost no money at all except for what she had spent on sugar. She liked the hobby but discovered she was pretty allergic to stings.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If there is nothing blooming at the time you install them and you don't feed them they will starve. If there is a flow when you install them, then it depends more on your climate. If they could get rained in for a week straight, remember they have no stores and you will need to feed them if that happens, at least until they have some stores to get them through those times. After that it is counterproductive to feed them as they will backfill the brood nest and swarm more times than not. If I get packages when there is a flow, I give them the can that came with the package and I'm done feeding. If there is no flow, (things have not started blooming) I feed them all until there are things blooming.

Feeding is one of the leading causes of problems:
robbing
ants
swarming when they aren't strong enough
disrupting the microbial culture of the bees' guts

Not feeding is only an issue in the spring when there is no available food (before the early fruit tree bloom or if it's raining constantly). But if there is no food available and none stored feeding is the only way to keep them alive. In the fall, the issue is enough stores for winter. If they don't have enough and you don't feed they will starve. If you leave them enough, you may not need to feed them at all.


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

Sorry for such a late reply. Got backed up at work big time and just coming up for air.

I understand now. In my part of NC, the winters are short. My last lawn cutting is in December. The first again in February or March. The Bradford pear, purple leaf plum, and redbuds in our yard start very early--February usually. So packaged bees in March should be ok without feeding, I would think. There are lots of flowering trees at this time. Dogwoods come in mid April, then the pine pollen dump occurs. By this time, folks have all their annuals out. In our yard, I'm pretty sure the Japanese silver bell is last (bees LOVE that one). The next bloom comes with the crape myrtles in the middle of the summer, and those are still in bloom now. I'm really not sure what comes out in late summer/fall. I will keep watch this year.

But I get it now, and thank you for all the replies and advice.

I finished one book, and am working on the second. Scouting the yard for location. Very hard to find sunny spots, away from woods, away from neighbors, away from the street. I don't think I have any! Best I can do is partial sun.

I'm still not sure I'm taking this plunge. It still does seem like a lot of work, especially for a TBH. But that is the only type I would consider because I want the bees building the comb to the size they need most at the time.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

yep, generally speaking the southern appalachian piedmont is good habitat for bees as it offers good floral diversity and almost year round forage availability.

a couple of thoughts in keeping with your desire for a natural approach,

bees can also build natural sized comb on langstroth frames when no foundation is used. 

package bees may limit your options as to getting bees that have a history of being kept naturally vs. getting a couple of nucs.

locating someone in your area that is using a natural approach as a resource for bees and advice will likely move you up the learning curve more smoothly.

just my .02, best of luck should you decide to go for it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

EarlyBird said:


> I'm still not sure I'm taking this plunge. It still does seem like a lot of work, especially for a TBH. But that is the only type I would consider because I want the bees building the comb to the size they need most at the time.


You could instead have foundationless frames in a standard Lang style hive which would also allow the "the bees to build the comb to the size they need most at the time."

More on foundationless here:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

The whole thing started like this:

-- brother back in the Midwest has bees in Langs.
-- visit brother. think "hmmm, bees..." Realize supers too doggon heavy for me (bad back).
-- ask Dr. Google about lightweight hives.
-- find "top bar hive" seems to solve the "heavy" problem. Brother never heard of TBH.
-- read and realize the (possible? probable?) benefits of natural sized comb and TBH. Hooked on the idea.
-- TBH seems to be the answer if I don't care about production (I don't).
-- happen upon inexpensive, used TBH on CL (too small, realize later, but now it's mine)
-- read more, think I'm probably a nut for considering doing this 
-- and here I am.

Now, a foundationless, horizontal Lang setup might solve the "heavy" and "natural comb" concerns. But loses the benefit of only opening a small part of the hive at a time, which to a beginner, sounds like a nice advantage of TBH.

Eh, I'll read more. I have time. Maybe TBH advantages overstated. Maybe 8-frame medium Langs would be light enough. Would be easier with standard equipment, too.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you want to open only _part _of a horizontal lang hive at a time, just cut the wood lid into convenient sections.

You can can have a sheet of tin on top of the wood sections to deal with the rain, or drape a piece of plastic over the wood.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

EarlyBird said:


> Maybe TBH advantages overstated.


LOL. 

When a particular design is outnumbered by a different design more than a thousand to one despite years of heavy promotion by a small but fanatical band of followers, an investigative thinker may wonder if there is a reason for that.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

some good thinkin' there eb.

a few more thoughts,

bees worth their salt in your location are going to make a lot more honey than they need whether you plan to harvest it or not.

once the fill whatever space you give them and the flow picks up in the spring they are going to swarm.

if there are more houses than trees around you you'll need to consider how to not let swarming become a problem for your neighbors.

one way to prevent swarming is to split out the queen and a few frames of bees in the spring and make a nuc which can be sold.

if your location is remote enough the above considerations may not be relevant. 

it's obvious you are doing your homework and i commend you for that. has your digging into all of this revealed to you that the bees aren't in as much trouble as some of the media reports are portraying? in my opinion the objective of helping the bees by being kind enough to provide housing for a colony or two with no real desire to work them or harvest anything from them is unlikely to accomplish very much to help the species.

i hope i don't come off as some kind of know it all who is trying to tell you what to do or not to do, but i think it's better not to set up beehives (especially in neighborhoods) and leave them to more or less their own devices. 

managing the natural increase that happens with a healthy colony of bees in an area with adequate forage usually involves some harvesting of honey and bees as time goes on. it's their nature to overproduce for their needs and out grow the space they have.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Heh, kinda like the guy down at the playground giving the kids free samples of drugs. Hey, EarlyBird, wanna buy a hive really cheap?

Once you're hooked, you fork over the dough. And it is _*really*_ addictive.

For us there was feeding up front to get them drawing comb (we just used foundation). We got a late start this spring due to the screwy weather, and missed the early flow. That's the excuse, anyway. I'd hate to say how much sugar our two first-year hives have gone thru, but its impressive. But next year, not so much. Or so they say.

As one pro beek here explained when asked why he took so much honey and then fed the bees sugar syrup, "Because I can sell honey for $7 a pound, that's why."


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I will not try to talk you into or out of a top bar hive. I have two with bees in them right now. But I have a lot more Langstroths. Here the advantages and other ways to get most of them:

TBH are cheap to build and don't require a lot of precise measurements and cuts. I can't get that really any other way... but you could build the TBH to Langstroth specs anyway and then you get the advantage of being able to use Langstroth frames if you buy a nuc or someone gives you some help (like a frame of brood) for your hive.

TBH are horizontal so you don't have to lift boxes. But you can build a long Langstroth hive where you don't have to lift boxes either:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm 

The downsides of horizontal and fixed size hives (both the top bar hive and the horizontal hive) is that any fixed size hive will require more frequent management because you can't pile on supers to add room, so the room you have has to be managed well. The other issue is that the brood nest tends to get stuck going sideways once they start storing honey and you have to feed empty bars into the brood nest. The upside of feeding bars into the brood nest is that you prevent swarming and you get straight comb (if it's between two straight combs). The down side is frequent manipulations. This is not bad if the hive is in your backyard. It's still less work that feeding a pet (you probably only need to intervene about once a week at the peak of things) but it's more frequent than a Langstroth. If it's in a outyard it's probably not very practical. Yes you could build a horizontal Langstroth hive and put supers on it, but the point was to eliminate lifting boxes...

TBH typically have natural comb (no foundation. But you can do foundationless frames in a Langstroth hive:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm 

The frames make for stronger easier to manage combs and interchangeability with other Langstroth frames.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Charlotte and Wake Forest are very similar. For starters join the NCSBA. We are the largest state association in the Country. You will get a lot of relevant advice and help.

Honey is retailing for around $8 a pound right now. A four pound bag of sugar for $177 at the Harris Teeter will make a 3 quarts of 1:1 syrup. Which do you want to feed your bees?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_Some _people think Harris Teeter is an expensive grocery store, but a $177 bag of sugar is really a bit much ...:lookout:



To make up for all that money spent on sugar, build some of your Lang equipment yourself. Hive tops and bottoms are a reasonable choice, but building boxes is not difficult once you work out a system that suits you. Complete free plans for pretty much everything are in the _Build-It-Yourself_ area:

http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I fed ~300 lbs of sugar last year to 7 hives that were splits and new starts. About 60 cents a pound here. To get a nuc shipped in is over $200 though. This area is about 60# honey net expectation from overwintered hives without feeding. You may take a medium of honey from a nuc but it likely will not get up to wintering weight without feeding back 50 or more pounds of sugar.

I have had more expensive hobbies though and now that I have conveniently forgotten about my capital investment, beekeeping does not seem so expensive anymore!


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## reminniear (Apr 7, 2014)

I've read the entire thread, but am only responding to the original posting.

YES. The total cost of keeping bees almost made me give it up before I even started. 

Then, much like you, I came across top bar hives. I'm currently 2 years in and loving it. Had I been stuck buying Lang's, frames, foundation, etc, I wouldn't be a beekeeper.

Look up Dr. Wyatt Mangum's book. It has some great low-cost ideas. The book is the most expensive bee book I've bought, but man it works.

Specifically related to sugar - I do feed new packages, but only until the spring flow starts. So far that's the only feeding thats been required. I prefer to let them eat the food they've prepared themselves. 

I've not had enough honey to sell, but I have enough for me and to give as gifts to my family.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

Feeding has been the cheapest part of this hobby. Maybe $20 since April? I do woodworking and would suggest you learn to make your own woodenware instead of buying it. So far,..darn glad i have gotten into beekeeping. Beats sittin on tha couch and doin nuthin or going shopping with tha lil woman.
total cost for getting 4 hives up n running...around $500 and that includes bees, wood, and equipment. One doesnt need to buy everything thats in a book. Actually only a veil, smoker, hive tool are needed to get started.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

It IS on-going, time consuming, and expensive! Quick, get out now before it is to late!  Oh, and speaking of feeding, it is food for my soul.


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

So many replies, thanks! I have some reading to do tonight, for sure. So busy at work which is -good- no complaints there.



squarepeg said:


> bees worth their salt in your location are going to make a lot more honey than they need whether you plan to harvest it or not.
> 
> once the fill whatever space you give them and the flow picks up in the spring they are going to swarm.
> 
> ...


All relevant. I'm very concerned with swarming in this little TBH. Houses are not so close (1 ac lots), and there are a ton of trees, but still...



> has your digging into all of this revealed to you that the bees aren't in as much trouble as some of the media reports are portraying? in my opinion the objective of helping the bees by being kind enough to provide housing for a colony or two with no real desire to work them or harvest anything from them is unlikely to accomplish very much to help the species.


Still reading. Started on the scientificbeekeeping site. So much to read; time is the issue. I'm -really- glad I didn't pick up that hive in the early spring and be stuck drinking from the firehose and not even knowing how to keep a smoker lit.



> i hope i don't come off as some kind of know it all who is trying to tell you what to do or not to do


Not at all; I appreciate the advice.



> managing the natural increase that happens with a healthy colony of bees in an area with adequate forage usually involves some harvesting of honey and bees as time goes on. it's their nature to overproduce for their needs and out grow the space they have.


I need to think hard about this and how well I can manage it. When we start talking splitting hives, isolating queens, introducing new queens, making nucs, it starts to sound like a job.


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

Phoebee said:


> Heh, kinda like the guy down at the playground giving the kids free samples of drugs. Hey, EarlyBird, wanna buy a hive really cheap?


HA! yep...



> As one pro beek here explained when asked why he took so much honey and then fed the bees sugar syrup, "Because I can sell honey for $7 a pound, that's why."


I see. I'm not carting honey to a farmer's market unless I lose my day job (which from recent reports is not out of the realm of possibilities). So honey that comes out is for me and the neighbors.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

EarlyBird said:


> I'm not carting honey to a farmer's market unless I lose my day job (which from recent reports is not out of the realm of possibilities). So honey that comes out is for me and the neighbors.


Same here. We classify our bees as pets. But you should see what we spend on the cats!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

EarlyBird said:


> .......it starts to sound like a job.


 yep, but at the same time i find it to be, hmm, theraputic?

you are wise for investing this time before proceeding (or not) with eyes wide open. as you have seen there are many ways you can tailor an approach to suit your individual needs and goals.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Phoebee said:


> But you should see what we spend on the cats!


That is a good point. Many common hobbies or sports cost way more than beekeeping. Even owning a cat. I was recently surprised to read in our local paper that owning a cat costs the average owner $12,000 over it's life. But when I worked out what our own cat costs, assuming a 20 year lifespan, yes, it came to a bit over $12,000, that's assuming it never has to get surgery. In US dollars that would be just over $10,000. Not many beehives will cost that, and you get something back you can eat / give away / sell, plus benefit the environment.


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

Santa Caras said:


> Feeding has been the cheapest part of this hobby. Maybe $20 since April? I do woodworking and would suggest you learn to make your own woodenware instead of buying it. So far,..darn glad i have gotten into beekeeping. Beats sittin on tha couch and doin nuthin or going shopping with tha lil woman.
> total cost for getting 4 hives up n running...around $500 and that includes bees, wood, and equipment. One doesnt need to buy everything thats in a book. Actually only a veil, smoker, hive tool are needed to get started.


My "problem" comes from too many interests. I pick up a new hobby every year or three, it seems. None lose interest for me entirely, and I always have something to do. Hate being bored. Bees next year? We'll see; it's a longer-term commitment. But good to know folks aren't going using up all their hobby money on sugar syrup. Yep, a veil, a smoker, a hive tool, and homemade woodenware, that would be the plan.


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

reminniear said:


> I've read the entire thread, but am only responding to the original posting.
> 
> YES. The total cost of keeping bees almost made me give it up before I even started.
> 
> ...


This is encouraging, thank you.


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> I will not try to talk you into or out of a top bar hive. I have two with bees in them right now. But I have a lot more Langstroths. Here the advantages and other ways to get most of them:
> 
> TBH are cheap to build and don't require a lot of precise measurements and cuts. I can't get that really any other way... but you could build the TBH to Langstroth specs anyway and then you get the advantage of being able to use Langstroth frames if you buy a nuc or someone gives you some help (like a frame of brood) for your hive.
> 
> ...


Mr. Bush, I've read all the TBH section of your website and some of the other sections as well. Watched a few of your vids/presentations. The website is a really great resource. Thank you for taking the time to write all that down and for your involvement and advice on the forums.

Re: vertical vs. horizontal: I can probably deal with 8-frame mediums, stacked. And can probably get the foundationless combs going. I need to read more on procedures for getting the comb rotated out of the frames so they aren't old/hard/black like I've seen in pictures. Less management/manipulation is good for me. Opening the whole hive is a little disconcerting. The TBH appeals there. Swarm control in the TBH seems difficult.


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> I was recently surprised to read in our local paper that owning a cat costs the average owner $12,000 over it's life. But when I worked out what our own cat costs, assuming a 20 year lifespan, yes, it came to a bit over $12,000, that's assuming it never has to get surgery. In US dollars that would be just over $10,000.


Now I -know- the wife's not getting a cat!


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> That is a good point. Many common hobbies or sports cost way more than beekeeping. Even owning a cat. I was recently surprised to read in our local paper that owning a cat costs the average owner $12,000 over it's life. But when I worked out what our own cat costs, assuming a 20 year lifespan, yes, it came to a bit over $12,000, that's assuming it never has to get surgery. In US dollars that would be just over $10,000. Not many beehives will cost that, and you get something back you can eat / give away / sell, plus benefit the environment.


YIKES no wonder I dislike cats. :lookout: 

If you feed any of the high dollars cat or dog food, you might be spending more than that.


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## SpringGreen (Jun 26, 2014)

I really wanted to start with a TBH. But I read they actually take more time, as you really have to get in there more often and ensure they are not cross combing. That made me think twice.

I also am a lousy woodworker, and I had read a small TBH throws lots of swarms. While I don't mind some swarms, I didn't want to lose all my bees my first and second years to swarms, and all I could find (eg, eBay) were small TBHs, unless I spent big bucks and bought one online...but I couldn't see spending that much for one hive, when that same amount bought me several Langs plus my equipment.

I still want a TBH. Now that I have this year's experience under my belt, I think I could handle a TBH without it sucking up too much time. The issue is, again, where to get one that isn't a swarm machine...

I have been considering a horizontal Lang as well, with inner covers for each section.

I have a bad shoulder, plus I'm...Getting old. I'm not as strong as I once was. Sigh. I could not pick up a full deep box. So I went all 8 frame mediums. While heavy, it's doable. I can move a full super of honey by myself.

I bought some foundation to help the bees start straight combs, and about half my frames now are foundationless. I feed foundationless in between frames with foundation or drawn comb, and I have had minimal problems with wacky comb building (usually only when I do something boneheaded and forget to put a frame in a space..). I prefer the foundation myself...I can see the eggs on it, while I can't in the foundationless...again, getting old...but the bees don't care. They just wanted to build comb.

As far as feeding, I really just fed until they had the minimum needed to survive a winter here drawn out, and that was that. They went well above and beyond on their own. If you give them a good start, which in your area might just be a few days or weeks, they will do fine.

Just keep reading and thinking.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Re: cost of feeding.

50 dollars buys 100+ pounds of sugar, more than enough to provide supplemental feed to a hive for two years. How long can a dog survive on a hundred dollars of dog food? In that time, how much saleable product will the dog produce, because that beehive should produce 100+ pounds of surplus honey which can be consumed or sold.

Thru this fall I expect to put about 200 pounds of feed into our hives. We have extracted 350+ pounds of honey and most of the colonies still have 60+ pounds in the hive. About 5% of the money from honey sales will be spent on bee feed. That is a pretty decent trade off from my perspective, and our own personal consumption of sugar will be much lower over the next year because there will be a bottle of honey on the counter which we use instead of sugar for baking bread.

As pets, bees are cheaper than just about any other pet, for the most part they feed themselves. As stock, they provide a very high return on feed investments. Tally the ROI on bee food and compare it to cattle or some other stock, and the numbers actually look ok.


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

grozzie2 said:


> Re: cost of feeding.
> 
> 50 dollars buys 100+ pounds of sugar, more than enough to provide supplemental feed to a hive for two years. How long can a dog survive on a hundred dollars of dog food? In that time, how much saleable product will the dog produce, because that beehive should produce 100+ pounds of surplus honey which can be consumed or sold.
> 
> ...


good perspective, thank you. I don't have pets (or cattle!) but I can see your point.


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## EarlyBird (Aug 16, 2014)

SpringGreen said:


> I really wanted to start with a TBH. But I read they actually take more time, as you really have to get in there more often and ensure they are not cross combing. That made me think twice.
> 
> I also am a lousy woodworker, and I had read a small TBH throws lots of swarms.


I'm about halfway through the Les Crowder TBH book. Swarming, and the maintenance to prevent it, are my two biggest concerns w/TBH. Plus maintenance for cross-combing, as you say. Langs have the advantage there, hands-down. Ironically, feeding frequency--the original topic of this thread--has me much less concerned now.

I can make wooden things for around the house, but not a woodworker. I have an old, 8" contractor table saw and a small compound miter saw, the two of which somehow manage to make everything for me. TBH would be MUCH easier to build than Langs. I would buy the Langs. Not worth the time for me to build those.

I think that TBH are better than Langs for wax moths and SHB simply because there are fewer cracks and crevices in a TBH. Of course just going from pictures of Langs, since I have none, and the one small TBH I have. Unless the SHB are going to hide above the top bars (where I will kill them), or behind the follower (where I will kill them), they have no place to hide in TBH. I also really like the "bottom jar" contraption that Jon Wolff came up with. I suppose that could be fitted to a Lang as well, if it were raised.



> I have been considering a horizontal Lang as well, with inner covers for each section.
> 
> I have a bad shoulder, plus I'm...Getting old. I'm not as strong as I once was. Sigh. I could not pick up a full deep box. So I went all 8 frame mediums. While heavy, it's doable. I can move a full super of honey by myself.


How many 8-frame mediums, stacked, keeps the swarming under control? Brood in mediums, too? And don't you still have to manipulate the brood comb on the bottom, anyway, to prevent the swarming?



> I prefer the foundation myself...I can see the eggs on it, while I can't in the foundationless...again, getting old...but the bees don't care. They just wanted to build comb.


Why harder to see eggs in foundationless (apart from needing reading glasses, which I do as well?)


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I roughly expect each colony to cost about $300 to $350 to get up and running. with maybe $100 to $150 a year in continued cost to keep it running.

With some additional costs and effort and preparedness to take advantage of the opportunities they pay for themselves.

You can get a 50 lb bag of sugar for $20. That should be more than enough to get any hive through a year. It is much harder to know when to feed and when not to. Of course if you develop your market enough to sell bottled honey directly. you are trading 40 cent a lb sugar for 8 dollar a lb honey.

There is also the issue that you need to increase to stay even. Which may mean you end up with more hives than you want at times. Those can also be sold. You will always be paying to keep it all rolling.

If you are looking for something that is sustainable with little or no effort. bees are not you cup of tea.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

But even with that labor to keep the bees taken into account, they're not bad.

Yes, they take some effort. Commercial beeks will probably say they can inspect a hive in maybe 15 minutes, and do this every 2 weeks or so. Maybe treat 1-3 times over a year, and harvest honey. Things slow down in the winter and we assemble frames and paint hives. If that seems too much, let me suggest you not go into raising chickens or keeping dairy cows. 

I had an aunt and uncle with an egg business. For 20 years they could not take a vacation. Individual family members might sneak off for a day, but the chickens never took a day off. The day the last truck came to haul chickens off to Campbell's Soup, they took off on a month-long vacation.

That said, there always seems to be some fascinating bee-related job to do, so it winds up a lot more work, but otherwise it would make a dull hobby.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Starting with a Langs setup is good for a beginner. It is to learn the tricks of this trade.
A TBH is fun too without the lifting but a lang can also be stationary if you want it to be. All my hives
are permanently setup now in a fix location. The concern about lifting can be corrected by building
smaller 8 frame nuc hives out of lighter seasoned wood boards and using another empty nuc for hive manipulation to lessen the load.
As for the feeding cost, it is not that expensive for a few hives. Two weeks of everyday feeding is
enough to load all the comb with honey water during a dearth here. With their help to find nectar and pollen
source out there it really is not that expensive. I can find sugar at .42 cents a pound here. And if you want to
plant a bee garden to increase your hobby then it is more beneficial for them and you. There are lots of veggies 
that the bees will like too esp. at Spring build up. Enjoy this as a hobby first to see if you like it or not. Then expand
to see if it is possible. I did not use a smoker and it is still brand new since my last usage 3 years ago because of the gentle stock I
got now. Instead of a hive tool I use a long skinny screwdriver to loosen the frames. A rounded screwdriver is unlikely
to squish my bees on a hive check. But definitely a full hive suit and a good quality veil you will need with a hat too.
So the expense is not that big if you want to manage. Speaking of hive equipments I made 22 medium bee frames with starter strips
that have not been use since last year. And if you are worry about swarming then split the heck out of them for more nucs for sale the
next year. You see expanding or contracting is all up to you as a beekeeper. Simply, beekeeping is a very flexible hobby to have. And
to borrow from one of the beekeepers here, it is the only hobby that will give the owner something in return.


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## SpringGreen (Jun 26, 2014)

EarlyBird said:


> I'm about halfway through the Les Crowder TBH book. Swarming, and the maintenance to prevent it, are my two biggest concerns w/TBH. Plus maintenance for cross-combing, as you say. Langs have the advantage there, hands-down. Ironically, feeding frequency--the original topic of this thread--has me much less concerned now.
> 
> I can make wooden things for around the house, but not a woodworker. I have an old, 8" contractor table saw and a small compound miter saw, the two of which somehow manage to make everything for me. TBH would be MUCH easier to build than Langs. I would buy the Langs. Not worth the time for me to build those.
> 
> ...


I have black foundation, which makes the eggs pop right out. They blend into the wax in the foundationless frames, so I can't see them. I'm nearsighted, so I should be able to see them, but I can't unless the foundation is dark. Sigh.

I do have all medium boxes, including brood chambers. I don't really manipulate combs so much...I let the bees fill the boxes, and as each box was 70-80% filled, I simply added another. I let the queens have what is termed an unlimited broodnest, and yes, while this meant I had some brood in the fourth box, the majority of it was in the bottom three, and now in the bottom two as they start heading into winter configuration. They never felt cramped, so they never swarmed. I also stopped feeding as soon as they drew out that bottom two boxes, to avoid becoming honey bound. I will do some spring reversals, most likely, but that is a whole box movement, not moving a lot of frames individually. 

I haven't looked through my brood chambers in weeks. I was not about to move those honey supers...each hive ended up with a total of 6 boxes (pretty good for a first year hive), but as I lifted off my honey harvest, I peeked to see what the broodnest was sort of looking like and lifted the chambers quickly for a general idea of how they were doing, but I did not go through frame by frame. 

I am not fast enough to kill every SHB when I lift the cover and they run for dark...good luck with that...but a strong hive controls them very well. Have not seen any wax moths at all.

However you decide to go, have two hives of the same type. Having two let me help one hive out when it was kind of limping along, and I got more experience by having two to compare versus just one hive. 

They do kind of multiply though...I started with two packages, raised three queens of my own, bought a couple queens, did some splits, did some combines, and ended up with three full sized hives and two nucs. Might do one more quick split with a purchased queen and feeding to make one more nuc for overwintering if I can get to the bee shop to buy another nuc.


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

Well, I look it as a hobby, so I spend the money. I stopped adding the cost after $1,000 dollars. I tend not to add the cost up, so I don't get discouraged. Instead of going hunting, fishing or what have you, I attend my bees.


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

No, compared to horses, bees are cheap!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Re: vertical vs. horizontal: I can probably deal with 8-frame mediums, stacked. And can probably get the foundationless combs going. I need to read more on procedures for getting the comb rotated out of the frames so they aren't old/hard/black like I've seen in pictures. Less management/manipulation is good for me. Opening the whole hive is a little disconcerting. The TBH appeals there. Swarm control in the TBH seems difficult. 

What is wrong with old/hard/black combs? They are tough and they work fine. Swarm control is basically the same in either a vertical or horizontal hive except you don't get the added strategy of adding boxes.

>But I read they actually take more time, as you really have to get in there more often and ensure they are not cross combing.

They require more frequent work, but not more work. I guess the "more time" depends on how far away the hives are... you have to make more trips and if those trips are a long ways, then they would take more time...


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