# Question about bulk milk tanks?



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, hot water can be run throw the copper tubing. Why do you think you want to use the agitator? I've never seen on used in a bulk tank of honey. Most of the reused dairy bulk tanks used in honey house that I have seen are in line after the sump tank without a filter in the line. So there is wax in the honey as it is dumped into the tank. So the agitator would distribute the wax through the honey rather than letting it sit on top.

What are you going to use the bulk tank for? Are you going to use it in the extracting or the bottling?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

papar said:


> Looking at getting a bulk tank.


Hopefully, you won't have a customer that requires Kosher honey.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

before putting in service I would take it to a good welder and have a larger outlet installed. most are too small for honey but depends on temp. they make a good storage tank.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

If the honey is warmed the smaller outlet is not as big of deal


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## AJ Farms (Nov 22, 2011)

We have 5 that we use in our bottling line. We have one that still has the agitator we only use if we need a second tank for creamed honey. We are also certified kosher tanks just need to be properly cleaned and sterilized. We have to warming/settling tanks that we pump the honey from into the storage tanks. Filters are inline before the storage tanks. We then bottle directly from the storage tanks.


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> Yes, hot water can be run throw the copper tubing. Why do you think you want to use the agitator? I've never seen on used in a bulk tank of honey. Most of the reused dairy bulk tanks used in honey house that I have seen are in line after the sump tank without a filter in the line. So there is wax in the honey as it is dumped into the tank. So the agitator would distribute the wax through the honey rather than letting it sit on top.
> 
> What are you going to use the bulk tank for? Are you going to use it in the extracting or the bottling?


I was curious if agitating clean honey would warm faster.
I thought of using the tank more in the bottling process


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

papar said:


> I was curious if agitating clean honey would warm faster.


physics says yes, but the amount of heat transfer is unclear to me.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AJ Farms said:


> We are also certified kosher tanks just need to be properly cleaned and sterilized.


And a Rabbi to say it's Kosher. Certify that no pork products were processed in the equipment.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

papar said:


> I was curious if agitating clean honey would warm faster.
> I thought of using the tank more in the bottling process


I guess it could. But it could also add air if it ran fast enough.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

It really depends.

There is no central authority for kosher certification, nor is there a consensus among jews (even among rabbis) what is required under what curcumstance. It really depends in the customer.

Many consider honey to be a raw agricultural product, and if unprocessed and only equip used for honey is used, then no certification is waranted....just like an apple isn't certified.

I know of some who have had a local rabbi (often a chabad rabbi) certify for a small fee.

If I wanted to market to people that wanted certified kosher honey, I would not bother with the local certification, but to go with one of the universally accepted, large certification agencies, as anything less has, at best, ambiguous connotations.

That's just my take.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

deknow said:


> It really depends.
> 
> There is no central authority for kosher certification, nor is there a consensus among jews (even among rabbis) what is required under what curcumstance. It really depends in the customer.


Well, I've been through this for a former customer. It didn't matter if I used a local rabbi, or a certification group from Brooklyn/Montreal. If Papar puts his honey in a used milk bulk tank, no matter how many times it is steam cleaned, the honey will never be certified as kosher...by anyone.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

As I said, what certification is appropriate depends on the customer. I'm sure Mike satisfied his customers needs honestly and completely.

I wouldn't buy a used milk tank with the intention of using for kosher use without clearing it with the certifier first, and I wouldn't assume it could be used as such...but I wouldn't make a blanket statement that it never would be by anyone, as the kosher laws (biblical laws) don't really correspond 1:1 with how they are practiced or interpreted in the modern world.


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

Looked at the tanks and they are going to be a real bear to move out. Think I'm going to slow down and consider my options further.

I haven't been asked for certified Kosher as yet, but it sounds like a reasonable consideration.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

i have been a milk tank dealer for over 30 years. some {not most} brands of tanks made before 1963 have a serpentie tube that is a long tube that works its way around the bottom zig-zag. the tube is small, the steinhorst brand had a tube bigger than the rest and it was copper, the others had copper connections on the outside only. a few larger tanks since then were set up for chilled brine instead of direct refrigeration, if you can find one that is not rotted out this would work well, the few i have seen were 2500 gallons and up.. the vast majority of tanks use a temperature cooling plate, the inside of the tank will show a pattern of dots on the bottom which are spot welds. a second dimpled sheet is welded to the bottom and welded around the edge of this cooling plate to be gas tight. it is made for low pressure freon type chemicals to boil and absorb heat. for a liquid to "boil" it must absorb heat. these plates do not circulate warm water very well.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

there are 2 reasons for the agitator in a milk tank. the agitator keeps the milk moving so that it will not freeze to the cold cold refrigerated bottom, if the milk freezes it will insulate the warm milk from cooling and it may spoil, may give false labratory readings to indicate added water and the ice milk cannot get pumped onto the milk truck.. ice is a great insulator, the eskimos make houses out of it.... the other reason is to stop the milk from seperating in to skim and cream... yes the motion of the milk helps to increase the heat transfer rate but in honey you will get bubbles. honey is so much thicker than milk that the agitator drive will not have enough power and will not do the job..


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I'm sure its harder to find a 300-600 gal tanks than it was 15-20 yrs ago. beekeepers and maple syrup people found out how good they are. you might look at used food equip dealers as another source. we have one in upstate ny called alard equip. any food packaging processing areas would be a good place to look. about 20 yrs ago we bought a 600 gal unit for 100 dollars. those days are gone. I have seen maple equip dealers advertise used ones.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I bought a used milk tank this season. It acts as a second sump. Some wax comes from the first sump. This tank is 900 U.S. gallons. It is jacketed. Unfortunately the lines were corroded so they leaked. I had to get a welder to lay some stainless piping inside the tank. The line goes back and forth a few times. I connected it to a recirculating pump that Cowan sells for heating the uncapping knives. Basically it is a 220 volt very small hot water tank with its' own recirculating pump. Works very well. I thought I might have issues with keeping the honey warm enough. We let it settle overnight or sometimes pump the tank out in the afternoon, if extraction went well. The honey is kept very warm. We pump it to a tank that is used to fill drums. Very little wax makes it to those 2 tanks after the milk tank.

Jean-Marc


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## Joe Hillmann (Apr 27, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Well, I've been through this for a former customer. It didn't matter if I used a local rabbi, or a certification group from Brooklyn/Montreal. If Papar puts his honey in a used milk bulk tank, no matter how many times it is steam cleaned, the honey will never be certified as kosher...by anyone.



What about it makes it not kosher?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

It's had dairy product in it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> It's had dairy product in it.


That seems odd to me. I know Jews have separate dishes for ceremonial functions but they also use dairy, just not at the same time. The dishes are washed between different types of food.


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## Joe Hillmann (Apr 27, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> It's had dairy product in it.


How does that make it not kosher? Since honey isn't meat does it matter? I'm just asking out of curiousness.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

A rabbi I once spoke to who actually kept bees with his grandfather in his youth said that "raw" honey was kosher. Now I wish I had asked him what his definition of raw was lol


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

On numerous occasion I have accompanied the Rabbi when he inspected the family honey processing plant. What the tanks where used for previously was never asked. Being in "America's Dairyland" a good share of our tanks previously held milk. Of more concern to him was if our check was good. 

Crazy Roland


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Roland said:


> Of more concern to him was if our check was good.
> 
> Crazy Roland


 Top Notch Rabbi


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When it comes to Kosher, there are probably as many strains of Jews as there are of Amish. So all of our experiences are valid, even if they are dissimilar.


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