# NW Carnolians, 1 for 6 in the final inning



## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I ordered half a dozen NW Carnolian queens last year to try them out. They were scheduled for pickup April 24 but when the weather got sour I called Strachen and asked them to delay it until there was some decent weather for them to breed. They assured me that they would never sell queens unless they were certain that they had opportunety to breed. A few days before the 24th I got a call to pick them up on schedule. I put them in five frame nucs with a minimum of four frames of bees. Five days later five queens had been accepted and one was dead in the cage. The candy was as hard as adobe brick and the bees couldn't release her.

Two weeks later I transfered the nucs with the remaining queens to strong colonies with a minimum of ten frames of bees during a strong honey flow. I fed all summer whenever the honey flow slacked off but they never built up more than three or four frames of brood at a time. Menwhile, my Italians were pumping out 8 to 12 frames even when the temp got over 100 degrees. 

By August or Sept. I became concerned and posted a topic wondering if this was charicteristic of NW Carnolians. Didn't seem like it was right so I called and talked to Vallarie Strachen. She advised me to treat for Varroa. I had been dusting with powdered sugar about twice a month from the start since I wanted to keep these girls away from chemicals. When I asked her about the early delivery she said yes they might not have been adequately bred but if so they would just supercede. I treated all of them with OA. One queen did supercede and I salvaged two of her daughters which are doing well. By the middle of Oct, of my remaining four queens three had completely shut down laying but still had about 12-15 frames of bees, one had appearantly absconded. OK, Carnolians are supposed to slack off when the flow stops so I fed and gave them pollen. Went to feed yesterday and took a peek under the covers. No bees. Lifted the top box and couldn't see any bees so I opened the first hive and found a patch of dead bees the size of the palm of my hand on one side of only one frame with the dead queen exposed. Same picture in the second hive, and a cluster the size of a small grapefruit of live bees in the third hive. Since winter has finally set in here the third colony is just going to have to make it or break it, it's too cold to shake bees from my Itallian hive and boost them up.

I'm not real happy about Strachen. I trusted them to keep their word about not selling queens unless they had a chance to breed and due to their reputation relied on their expertese. When I discussed the problem with Vallerie, I feel she should have offered to replace them with adequately bred queens, which she did not do.

I think I will try to get a couple of Russian Nucs from Fat Beeman this spring. I want to move away from the Itallians and find a way to minimize treatments but I have sour taste for the Carnolians now. It seems strange to be 100 miles away from some of the biggest queen breeding operations in the country and have to order from the east coast area to feel confidence in the queen breeders.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I saw a lot of queen in our area superceded... queens that came with packages and also bought seperatly. I personally do not think that certain breeders check the laying patern of queens before shipping. I am not saying all... I am saying some..!!!

Seriously, take a look at the situation and preasure the breeders are under. Feb, March, and April come, weather is iffy, rainy a lot, orders are booked solid, people are calling everyday, ordering and asking when the queen will arrive, a worker goes out to check the mating nucs, concludes that the queen is good to send when maybe they are not but remember... gotta push the orders out. 

Also, take a look at the fact that if a customer gets a bad queen in a batch, they might not complain. Consumers, in general, according to a study done a year or so ago, mentiond that most consumers (overall) do not complain. 

I agree with Sierra. A lot of iffy things happened this spring with queens.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Sierra, don't throw the baby out with the Bath Water. Had a very similar experiance with Strachan this year. We ordered $4,000 worth of queens this year (from various suppliers), up from about $2200 last year due to poor spring queens. We got a letter from Strachan and California Queen breeders telling us in advance to expect problems. That doesn't make it any easier but sometimes a combination of conditions makes it very difficult for producers to hold quality. My previous partner had great success with Strachan Carnis. I would note I did not order from them this year as I ordered from another California breeder and had no problems. Those queens were ordered for a week later. Both California orders arrived on time.

We've had exceptional success with Carni's as well as Buckfast. They are an important genetic in the 100 or so queens we raise every spring. In most years I think you'd find some success with queen breeders on your coast.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Sierra,
I'm pleased with Fatman Don's queens that I got. I gave one to my girlfriend for a struggling hive. She reported yesterday that this hive as really turned around and is now packed to the gills with stores for the winter where her Italians she's had all season are not quite as packed. She discovered for herself the smaller cluster size, too. These were Carni/russian crosses from Don.

Waya


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

Of course it's hard to say what happened with such a small sample size. I do seem to be hearing more and more such stories from big and small alike (even distributors), poor acceptance, superceedure, poor laying paterns, etc. I do wonder if this is a growing trend, a bump in the road, the sqeaky wheel, or simply that I'm more attentive to the problems now that I'm in the same area myself.

My own experience this past year with Strachen was mixed. They did arrive on time (may queens) and were accepted quickly. One superceeded in the first few weeks, and the other didn't build up well and superceeded in a couple months. Too small a pool to say there was a real problem, and I would try again if shipping were not so expensive for a few queens this coming year. 

Still, to me it seems to be a growing trend towards poor laying or superceeded queens. Weather can be a problem, especially early in the season (and even later some years). It's something completely out of the beekeepers control and the beekeeper can do little but delay orders. Of course the pressure is on and some take the delay in stride, but others I've found just don't understand that just because an order is placed in January doesn't mean I can guarentee a shipping date.

But there are other factors completely in the beekeepers control that I see a big problem with. Chemicals in the hive: I've been told by some reliable sources that the amount of chemicals used in some operations is staggering (and many that aren't legal). Even the legal ones (apistan and checkmite) when used properly have a negative effect on queens. 

Genetic Diversity: It's been shown over and over again that genetic diversity in a bee population increases it's vigor (strength of the hive, etc.) Yet many large breeders only use 2-5 breeder queens.

Size of mating nucs: How can one possibly evaluate the laying pattern of a queen in one of those mini mating nucs? They simply don't have enough space, in my opinion, for the queen to lay. Many times I've seen new queens lay up a full size frame (or more), in just 3 days. Plus, for adequate migration of sperm to the spermathica the queen should be at brood temperatures the first 24-48 hours after mating. This can be hard to maintain in mini nucs, especially when the weather turns bad.

Drones: Good healthy (see chemicals above) and plentiful drones. Generally this should be easy to achieve, but in cooler climates like mine this often determines when I can begin rearing queens for the season.

Not to paint too bleak a picture, the good operations learn, adapt, grown and solve problems as they occur. Still, I wonder how high prices can go before we start demanding more quality control. Honestly I don't know what most operations are doing now. Such information (number and source of breeders, treatment regimens, nuc size, selection criteria, etc) doesn't appear available on most outfits websites. I have no idea if they would tell you if you asked. (Maybe if you were ordering 1000's, but would they talk to a hobbiest ordering 1?)

My comments are not intended to target any producer but are general comment based on the complaints and observations of myself and many others. (though if you feel affended, you problably have something to fix).

-Tim


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I think I would have accepted the problem if I had not asked Strachen to delay my order and been talked out of it. I knew the weather was not conducive to good queen breeding so early this year but I relied on their word that they would not deliver queens unless they were sure. Then the offhand treatment when I inquired later in the year didn't make it any better. I have spent a lifetime dealing with the public in sensitive areas and the one thing I have learned is that honesty in communications if more important than providing the product.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Again, I agree with sierra. If producers would be honest and say "hey, we are having bad weather, we just cant send queens our right now" instead od B.Sing people. 

See Tim, I didnt care that you had to delay the queens. I would rather have them delayed than supercedded or sent out inferior due to poor mating. I think it is the small producers like Tim, Fatbee, Michael, and some others that can provide a better product versus the massed produced queen. Maybe that will create a niche markey for those small operations. 

Tim, I agree with you too. So many chemicals are being used. Again, maybe this will create a niche market for producers not using chemicals. 

these are great reasons to buy from smaller operations and also great motivational feed to try rearing some queens. Yes, it is tough and confusing but the learning that takes place and the information available is soooo interesting.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I have had great success with Strachan Carni queens. I have ordered from them for the past 3 years and will probably continue to do so. I have not noticed any thing different from their queens that I have not noticed with Tim's queens or the ones I have raised. Not all queens are equal even when you do your best. Sometimes it is the beekeepers fault and not necessarily the producers. 

As Tim said... that is a fairly small sample size to paste an "inferior quality" sticker on Strachan Carnis. If you consistantly have problems over many queens or several years then you might have something. 

I, for one, have been impressed.

I think that communication is the key to a quality experience. A bad communication experience is difficult to overcome. This is where the smaller producer has an advantage. Big shops like Strachans will work closely with the bigger players. That is where most of their queens go. Although I've always found them helpful to me....

I would rather get an email or a phone call and let me know there are problems than to make plans and find out that they were never shipped. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Good points Dan. But where the break down happens on communication is commuicating with the little people. Great, they might call the big plays, as you say, but what happenes to the people that order maybe 5 queens??? Are they implying that the smaller orders dont mean anything?


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

<Are they implying that the smaller orders dont mean anything?>

That's pretty much the feeling I have Chef. I bet if I had ordered 1000 queens and asked to delay the order they would have been more than glad to postpone it to whenever I though the time was right.


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

I would love to get involved in this thread but it would not be ethically correct.

Valeri Severson is the late Don Strachans eldest daughter and she manages the show.

[ November 28, 2006, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Rob Mountain ]


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

I do not think a 1000 queen order would be accepable and delayed by them. They sell more queens to hobbiest then commercial producers. They know the score and I have only orderd 100 queens a year from them for the past 4 years and never had a problem.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Seems like rain has all the answers...

But Idont view it like that. 

In my experiance, doesnt matter if it is in beekeeping or culinary arts.... it seems like the smaller producers give better customer service and are on top of there game when dealing with people. 

Matter of fact, as queen prices go up, what are we getting for that increase? I love dealing with John at Ol Sol or Dan at Purvis brother because they will actually check how the queens are before sending them.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I've spent most of my life in a service profession and learned a long time ago that you can't please everyone and I'm sure this also applies to queen breeders. Being on the inside I also was able to observe the actions and attitudes of my colleagues, some of whom I admired and some of whom I didn't think much of. I figured out that in business what you see on the surface has no connection with what often happens behind the doors.

I'm not happy with the treatment I got from Strachen, however I'm sure there were a few people over the years that were not happy with me and they just went on their own way. I agree with Chef, being a small opperator gives you the time to attend to the small details. We are all subject to the whims of mother nature, but when the flood water comes it is a personal decision to sell or not to sell the car that was under the water. The little guy would scrap it for parts and take his losses, the big guy would clean it up and put it back on the lot. I don't know how Strachen fits in this picture, but I have heard stories from other beeks about different large scale queen raisers that suggest a lot of details get lost when they start depending on too many different employees. Some of these stories actually come from family members of a multi-generation beekeeping family.

It all comes back to a simple concept. Big is only bigger, not necessissarily better. I'm going to hang with the little guys.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

the chef sezs:
I personally do not think that certain breeders check the laying patern of queens before shipping. I am not saying all... I am saying some..!!!

tecumseh replies:
using old school terms most of the queens you and I might purchase from a queen breeder use to be classified as untested. as someone else so correctly pointed out a mini nuc would be totally laid up in about 3 days, so most queen breeder simply watch to see if a young queen will lay at all and then she is shoved in a cage and sold. as long as queen breeder continue to use mini nucs and are pushed on all fronts to deliver queens as early as possible it is difficult to see any remedy to this problem.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

There are two sides that make this equation. Supply and demand. As long as people want them at the first earliest timeframe, they will be sold. Is it the suppliers doing thier best to provide a product that may carry some risk, or is it a demand(beekeepers) problem for demanding so much at times when the best queens are not propogated?

Do you play ahead of the game, or do you play catch up? If you need a certain number of hives next spring, say something like 10, do you go into winter with 10 and expect all to make it? Or do you go into winter with 15, knowing with the many problems we face in the industry, some loss should be expected.

Instead of going into winter with 10 and coming out with 5, and then splitting your hives and possible effecting your honey crop as many do, all the while playing into the mass chaos of getting early spring queens, why not do this? Go into winter with 15. Be happy with what you have coming out of winter, say 10, and focus on the honey flow. Then build your numbers back up and get better queens later in the season.

This may not work for big pollinators, but for the hobbiest, this system is well worth it in the long run.

With discussions I had with Kirk Webster, he stated along the lines of "We have been dealing with mites for years now, and we will be talking about them years from now. Take what we have to work with, and expect some loss. Build it into your beekeeping plan." I took that to heart. It makes sense.


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

This may be somewhat true but without a name I cant reply. Every queen breeder in N. California had a tough spring.


Valeri Severson
Strachan Apiaries, Inc.
2522 Tierra Buena Rd.
Yuba City, CA 95993
530-674-3881


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Bjorn you and I are on the same page.

I have read the articles by Kirk Webster and also others in the journals. For us northern beeks we need to get away from the southern spring queens and packages and get our queens the year before.

If the nucs make it through the winter they will hit the ground running next spring.

Then you will know what queens you have and if they are winter hardy. And by getting your queens in July and August you can deal with northern breeders/ locals or do your own.


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## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

"And by getting your queens in July and August..."

I have not had much luck getting my queens in August or September. (I only use pure Russian queens, not Russian hybrids.) Have you had any problems getting queens that late? 

I do not want to be dependent on queen producers in the spring. Therefore, I am overwintering nucs for the first time. Instead of requeening in April next year, I will be able to requeen in March.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

This year we got some Q cells from Tim Tarheit, installed them on AUgust 17. Still had plenty of drones around. They have done really well so far (knock on wood) with good patterns. We will see how many get through winter.

I figure I lost a few pounds of fall honey but not too much. But too soon to really know how it will work. I am hoping to have some of them make it through the winter in good shape. We will see. If they don't make it I will blame myself for doing it too late and not feeding.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Doug,

I ordered my queens from Strachen for last April 17. I got the mailer discussing the weather and the fact that they would be delayed. My queens were also mailed on April 24. 

Mine did really well. Just luck I suppose. I ordered 3 queens from Tim Arheit and got them this last August. They will have a harder time since one is in a single and two are in nucs for the winter. We will see what happens over the winter. I have queens ordered from Strachen again for next April 23rd.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

beedeetee

It makes me feel better to hear that queens from the same source and probably the same pick were ok. I'm still having a problem considering buying from the same breeder even though they are the most convienient for me.

Last year I raised about seventy five of my own queens from my Itallians and only lost six from them, but winter is a long way from over. I only buy queens to try to keep my gene pool from getting too narrow. Had a lot of difficulty getting the starters to accept cells and only got two queens out of the Carnolians, but they are surviving so far and I plan to use them as drone breeders plus I will try to raise some from the lone original survivor. I only raise the queens for my own use and I worrey about inbreeding because I am relatively isolated. Because some of my locations are in climates that a lot of people don't even know exist in Calif, I look for good wintering stock which is why I picked the Carnies to try this year. I'm going to try some Russians next year, but so far the yellow bees are doing best in this area. Also going try to work my way into small cell but that will take a while and I need to keep my losses down until I get enough stock in SC to make a big switch.

Probably the reason my own queens out performed the Carnies might have been that I culled and re-queened everything that wasn't up to par in the spring and did the same thing in the fall. I didn't do that with the Carnies, but nature seems to have done it for me.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Doug
I am like you, I have a little of this, a little of that, and see what works.

The carnis are definitly different in more than color. I think there are probably some years that the carnis will do better and others that the Italians will do better. Although the term "Italian" is probably more descriptive of what it isn't than what it is. Maybe your term "yellow bees" is the best descriptor.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I wish I could afford to use the requeening system to select out on bought queens, but there is no way I'm going to squish a 20 dollar queen without giving her a year to make it or break it. Twice a year requeening and constant evaluation speeds up the process and I ain't too young so I'm not looking at very many years to get where I want to go with them.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{there is no way I'm going to squish a 20 dollar queen without giving}

It took me quite a few years to be able to squish any queens, especially the $20.00 ones. Once I got into breaking down the nickels and dimes of our production,having reached the business stage, I realized a bad $20.00 queeen could cost me a couple hundred dollars in production in a good season and the loss of a hive of bees due to a poor winter cluster/stores, as well as reduced production in the 2nd season from a hive started from a package or nuc. I still hate squishing queens but have learned it is necessary for my survival as a business and the hives survival as a colony. Those poor performinhg $20.00 queens can easily cost several hundred dollars in the long run.

[ November 29, 2006, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I can agree with Joel re squishing queens. I've squished a breeder queen that cost $26 in the past. Her brood pattern was lousy and the queens I raised from her were not productive. It is a simple decision to make when you realize the damage that a bad queen can cause. The problems are just multiplied if you use a queen with bad genetics as a breeder.

Fusion


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

I like what you say Bjorn!

I understand your grief from the experience sierra. It's tough to go back when your good faith has been tainted from a bad experience. No matter what the reason.

I hope you find the cure.

I will pass on a name of a breeder on the great left coast that is closer than the east coast, if that matters to you that much. Dennis Lohman. He has carnies in CA. I mention him more because of the superior service I received from him this year! Aside from the absolutely awesome queens that I got from him. As much a bad experience you may have had, mine was equally opposite. He can be found on the suppliers list here at the source.

But, I will say, I got the queens after the spring rush.

No, he ain't my cuzzin!!









Good Luck!!!!


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I don't know how to get into the suppliers list. I have tried to run the term on search and get no results. I have also tried Dennis Lohman on search with no results.


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

It is located at the home directory. Look for 
Bees and supplies at the left hand side of the page.

http://www.beesource.com/suppliers/usbees.htm


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

for the suppliers list:
go to the home page. on the far left third down you should be able to select bees and suppliers.
then it's u.s.a to california


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Thanks. I'm going to give him a call.


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

You can also check out http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/bee_links-USA-90.phtml for queen suppliers. It's organized by breed. If I'm missing anyone let me know.

-Tim


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I called Dennis Lohman this morning. He has a minimum order this year of 25 queens, and I don't want to dedicate that much recourses to one breed of bees until I have a better feeling if I want to stick with them. I'll probably order them from Don in Georgia. I've so much good about his bees and If I get the best to start with I'm more likely to make the right decision as to what I want to stay with. Whatever I settle on will end up being primarily breeding stock to mix with local ferel strains.


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## cmq (Aug 12, 2003)

< I've squished a breeder queen that cost $26 in the past.>
Where can I find a $26 breeder???


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Last Chapter.

Went to the yard where I had kept the Carnies to feed. Temp 59. Cracked lid on the one remaining box. Cluster the size of a golf ball imobile on the comb and too weak to move to the honey surrounding them three inches away. The rest of the bees dead on the bottom. Took them home and warmed them up in an observation hive with some syrup. The queen is still alive and there are enough bees to feed her so I'll probably keep her going while I can just out of curiosity. No evidence of mites on the dead bees, either varroa or tracheal. No excess feces, no odor, just looks like starvation even though there is about thirty pounds of honey surrounding them.

The only conclusion I can come to is that they just ran out of fertile eggs too late for supercedure and shut down too early. I don't understand why the bees didn't supercede unless the timing was just wrong. The two daughters from the one Carnie queen that did supercede are doing fine.

Don't know why I'm wasting time with this last queen and her tiny retinue. Stubborn I guess. Maybe I spent too many years as a veterinarian trying to save the hopeless ones and can't break the habit.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

i had early spring packages from the valley this year that started out o.k. and then started to dwindle, supercede, swarm and die. thru inexperiance, wishful thinking and a busy late summer schedule i didn't requeen. i started with thirty and entered winter with fourteen. i had a good service experiance with the company and i asked for bees on the first of april and they were able to supply them when few could. i'll probably order with them again this year, but for the first of may not april. 
i "wasted" alot of time on tiny late swarms this year. they didn't even make it into winter but i sure enjoyed the experiance. i don't think time can heal a queen. if it's weak the hives a goner.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I'm not sure this queen is worth it even if I can save her. The bees are treating her like she isn't there which makes me think she is worn out.

I think the reason I won't let go is it's like a gambling habit. You win a few hands and next thing you know you are forever certain that your next draw will be a royal flush.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

sierra,
Not to try pinpointing blame or even find the answer, I will add the following.....

I for one am highly allergic to MSG. I will have dibilitating migrains if I consume any amount of the stuff. But for many people, this stuff poses no reaction at all. It is in many food items.

Some people will react and can even die from a whiff of odor from peanuts. 

These two examples are in relationship to humans. Many examples could be listed. With humans, they are able to analyze, ask questions, and through intelligence, we can pinpoint reactions and dangers to chemicals and substances that our bodies react too. Sometimes with deadly consequences.

Now relate those type situations with bees. We can not ask questions, analyze the daily contacts, and pinpoint some triggers. Did this shipment come into contact with a package handlers perfume, discharge from a machinery in the handling or processing of the package, an unknown airborne compound in route to your place, a nieghbors use of some homemade concoction in the garden, or some other unknown danger?

Bees for millions of years have been living in nature, with only what nature handed them in a natural setting. Now they are exposed to chemicals and compounds that they have never been in contact with. If humans can die from exposures to peanuts, and have dibilitating illnesses from anything from MSG to latex...what about bees? And now add perhaps unknown viruses and baterial issues and an ever changing world of new compounds, and who knows?

I only throw this out, because I feel there is so much we don't know. And never will. I had one person this year have a bad batch of queens from me. This was the only person that had expressed any problems with queens. All six were not satisfactory. Others from this batch sent to other beekeepers were apparently fine.

Did the bees come into contact with something enroute? Did they experience a short period of heat, enough to harm and not kill the queen yet effect viability in egg production?

Do I think any of the above answer my own questions what happen to me? No really, but the slim line of possibility is still there. I have spoke with the beekeeper who recieved the queens, and after talking it over...I have no clue why this batch seemed to fail. 

Sometimes we have to just realize we deal with insects, and clear answers will never present itself.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

<Did the bees come into contact with something enroute? Did they experience a short period of heat, enough to harm and not kill the queen yet effect viability in egg production?>

I picked them up at 4:00 pm at the breeder in Marysville, drove them 20 miles in an air conditioned car, marked them with the same numbered disks and glue I use for all my queens, and put them in nucs before 6:00 pm the same day.

Of course I don't know what handling they had before I picked them up, and there is no way to know what could be in the environment around my bee yard or on the bees in the nuc, but I took healthy queens out of the nucs that all went on to build up strong colonies last summer.

Just have to write this off as "experience" and like everything else in this world, try to learn whatever there is to be learned from it.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Last queen dead on the bottom of the OB hive. Cluster of healthy looking bees near the top of the hive with no queen visable looks about the same as when they were "thawed out". This is no big suprise since they didn't pay any attention to her when she was moving around the hive.

The two daughter hives I did manage to get from these queens are thriving and in the area I have them there should be a eucalyptus flow in about a month. ONWARD TO NEXT YEAR.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

hey sierra were are you getting a eucalyptus flow? 
i hope to have the manzanita start in about five weeks.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I have a nice stand of ******** over in Browns Valley. It hasn't started yet but Jan. is pretty typical. I have another location in North San Juan with good low altitude manzanita, madrone, and blackberry that will be my first full year in. I'm hoping to see them bloom in sequence like they do some years. If that happens I might be holding back a few hives that I would otherwise send to almonds. Could give me as much as five months of near continuous flow. Then again, I might just be a blooming idiot with my expectations. Last spring the manzanita held back until well into March before it broke loose, bloomed the same time as the madrone and only lasted about three weeks. I couldn't get anything built up strong enough to take advantage of the blackberry which had it's main bloom early. Then it was all over for that location. Gotta be better this year. I been feeding like crazy and invested in some Mann Lake pollen to try to get an early push. Re-queened everything between August and October except for two 05 queens I want to breed from if they winter well.

It's hard getting started back up after all these years and learning to deal with the problems that didn't exist when I had bees before.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

this is the time of year for having blooming expectations. there is plenty of time for reality this summer here above placerville i get manzanita,ceanothus,clover/vetch,blackberry,
toyon and star thistle.
at the first part of june there is also buckeye. do you have buckeye? it's poisonous to the bees and there is an off chance the pollen affected the build up of colonys.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I haven't seen anything that I know as buckeye but I'm not sure I would recognize it if I did. I'll have to hit the books an familiarize myself with it. Since my yards are all the way from 5000 feet high to about 200 feet at the other extreme I get a lot of variation in plant life. One of the two locations where I have had problems is at about 3000 feet and I didn't get the bees in until the middle of May. If there is buckeye there it would sure fit the timing. In that yard I moved in four two story deeps that were overflowing with bees to the point where they were bearding on hot days, all with marked queens. A month later they were all struggling, the marked queens were still present, and even though these hives recovered enough that they should make the winter OK they never became productive. Luckily I make it a policy to never put more than four hives in a new location until I see what happens to them over a years time.

Thanks for the buckeye clue. I am definitely going to follow up.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I just downloaded some photo's of Ohio Buckeye. I remember seeing these all the time in Northern Michigan as a kid but I wouldn't have recognized it today. I have seen the nuts occasionaly here in the Sierras but they don't seem to be common. Guess I'll have to look around a lot more closely. It is not native to this area, but I doubt that there is anything that will grow or live in California that someone hasn't introduced at one time or another.


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## Ishi (Sep 27, 2005)

If you see a bush or tree in late July or August with no or very few leaves and large brown balls hanging on it that is California Buckeye.

Get a tree with a bank behind it and it is fun to shoot them with a 22.


Red Bluff


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Doug,
California Buckeye is grows in the foothills from the Valley up to over 3,000 feet. The pollen is poisonist to young larvae. The bees will come out with deformed wings and the queen will sometimes completely stop laying. Often you think you have mites. In one of my books I have information which I am trying to find and I'll post it when I do. The Buckeye plant can be a bush or a tree. It has long white flower clusters. Its the 1st to leaf in the spring and also the 1st to lose its leaves. You can do a search on Bee Source for Calif. Buckeye. I'm bothered by Buckeye every year but last year it hit me really hard. Buckeye can get you twice in one year. Once when the plants in bloom and the bees are collecting the pollen and then later in the fall when they are using the stored pollen. Anyway I'll try to find my information.
Jim


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

i've gotten an impression that the situation here might be differant than on the east coast.
folks on the east coast tend to say it's poisonous but doesn't effect the bees. i've read west coast (sierras not coastal) beeks say it can have a real effect. i have an email communication from eric mussen (spelling?) from the u.c. i can email it to you if you like. from what i've gleaned it seems to be worse in some locations and years than others. the pollen poisons the brood. if the bees have stored the pollen it can effect the colony long after the the season is over. a precaution is to feed pollen during buckeye bloom.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Eric Mussen's Newsletter of May/June 02 speaks to California Buckeye also 'The Hive and the Honey Bee' pages 1194-1199. 

http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen/05-06-02.pdf

Jim
Valley Springs, CA


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

This sure is sounding like it could be the problem with my carnolian queens. I moved the colonies I gave the queens to from my home yard the end of April and put the carni queens in a location at about 1500 feet. I didn't feed any pollen but did use a pollen substitute, which might not have appealed to them as much as buckeye pollen. I did keep one queen at home at 3200 feet but where we are at we have a climate more typical of 4000 so we may not have conditions conducive to buckeye. While the queen I kept here didn't do very well, she did produce some growth during the season before she did her early shutdown.

I think this year I am just going to feed pollen all season. At the price Mann Lake is selling it for it should pay for itself.

By June I should have all my bees in the Sierra Valley at 5000 ft plus so I shouldn't have to worry about buckeye there.


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