# Small cell bee foundations



## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

Please read what happened to this person when he put his bees in small cell foundations.

http://bwrangler.wordpress.com/small-cell-experience/

I believe people lose bees because they place them in small cells not knowing what will happen.

I’m interested in nailing down why people lose hives, was it diseases and pests or factory foundation cell size or some of all. There is a cause for CCD, I want to find out what it is. It looks like most people don’t really know why they lose hives but there is a reason for CCD.So I would like those of you who lost hives to answer all questions, please.

What breed of bees did you have you lost, are they yellow looking bees or are they black looking bees ? Here are links you can look at pictures of different bees to know what breed you have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maltese_honey_bee.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dark_bee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carniolan_honey_bee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Buckfast_bee.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_bee

Do you know the signs of diseases and pests ?

Were your bees heavily infested with diseases or pests ? What kind ? 

Did your bees draw (make)their own foundations and comb for the brood ?

Were there ants in your hive ?

Did they die during the winter ?

Were the hives strong 50-60 thousand bees ?

Did they have a lot of store for the winter ? 

How long did you have the hive before you lost it ?

If it was Italian bees you lost,did you put small cell foundations in the hive ?

Please read this.


http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesferal.htm


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Please read what happened to this person when he put his bees in small cell foundations.

I know Dennis and have read it many times.

>I believe people lose bees because they place them in small cells not knowing what will happen.

No. In my opinion, they were losing them because the method recommended by Dee and Ed Lusby was to do shakedowns of all of their colonies. This was very stressful. I have no had such losses and know of no one who has unless they were doing complete shakedowns. A shakedown is when you shake all the bees into a hive with nothing but small cell foundation.

>I’m interested in nailing down why people lose hives, was it diseases and pests or factory foundation cell size or some of all.

Stress from shakedowns, IMO.

>There is a cause for CCD, I want to find out what it is.

Not having it at all, makes it difficult for me to have too many theories, but here is mine. The things that changed just before CCD hit are that the commercial operators started using Tylosin instead of Terramycin, which killed off all the beneficial bacteria that had built up a resistance to the Terramycin. They also went crazy with the fumidil (because of the Nosema Cerana) which killed off all the beneficial yeast. They also started using formic acid for Varroa which killed off any microorganisms that the previous two did not. The bees cannot digest pollen. They can digest bee bread. Bee bread is pollen that has gone through a two stage fermentation process that involves many microorganisms. After that the shell on the pollen grains is gone and the bees can digest it. So perhaps the bees are starving from lack of protein.

>It looks like most people don’t really know why they lose hives but there is a reason for CCD.

Sure there is. They are not finding it because they are looking to find some microorganism. They are not looking for what is missing.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I read the article you referred to, and his own summation is that bees on small cells outperformed larger cell bees. The problem was getting there. And so he sought a way to get there, without the losses during regression. Thus he went "Natural." Seems like that's what many of us are doing as we go foundationless.
Regards,
Steven


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >Please read what happened to this person when he put his bees in small cell foundations.
> 
> I know Dennis and have read it many times.
> 
> ...


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

StevenG said:


> I read the article you referred to, and his own summation is that bees on small cells outperformed larger cell bees. The problem was getting there. And so he sought a way to get there, without the losses during regression. Thus he went "Natural." Seems like that's what many of us are doing as we go foundationless.
> Regards,
> Steven


Yes we must go natural and let the bees make their own foundations but many people don't know that and they keep on selling factory foundations to people. Many old bee keepers don't know this i guess and the new ones don't,so they make the biggest mistake to start with. Old and new bee keepers making the same big mistake,making splits and buying packages and puting them in hives with small cell foundations.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

Another sad product of our educational system here in Texas...


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I don't know whether to close this thread or delete it. It's going nowhere fast. :scratch:


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

mythomane said:


> Another sad product of our educational system here in Texas...


Not only in Texas but around the world. The really sad thing is, the factory makes small cell foundations and the supply places sell them and people buy them and kill their whole bee hives not knowing.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

This is a gross overstatement, to say the least.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

As a non supporter of the whole small cell thing.....even I'm having trouble getting my mind around this thread.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

C I B,
Are you onto the cause of our CCD problems? If so I am safe then cuz I don't use small cell.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Isn't the reason for small cell is that that the varroa mite won't lay in it? I read an article in one of the bee mgazines that covered research done on the use of small cell for this. There was no differience in the amount of mites. Rendering the small cell useless. Wish I could remember what it was in. I'm getting old and having senior moments. But the facts are right.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

um, barry?? you have to delete this thing....its just nonsense.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

Beeslave said:


> C I B,
> Are you onto the cause of our CCD problems? If so I am safe then cuz I don't use small cell.


I believe the CCD problems are pest control treatments and trying to put all size bees on one size cell foundation. There are different breed of bees and different size bees. You can't put all size of bees on one same size cell foundations. Same as you can't put drones or queens in worker cells. Bees need to draw all their own cells and foundations so they can grow to the natural size. Restricting their growing will deform them. That's why i ask what breed of bees are people losing. It makes them weak the same as pest treatments do.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

valleyman said:


> Isn't the reason for small cell is that that the varroa mite won't lay in it? I read an article in one of the bee mgazines that covered research done on the use of small cell for this. There was no differience in the amount of mites. Rendering the small cell useless. Wish I could remember what it was in. I'm getting old and having senior moments. But the facts are right.


That's what many people say and what I believe. There was no differience in the amount of mites. Rendering the small cell useless.


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

mythomane said:


> um, barry?? you have to delete this thing....its just nonsense.


How are people going to learn if they don't ask questions and give their opinions/thoughts.

Will say this. I put 2 packages on totally HSC last spring. Eventually lost both hives no matter what I did. It wasn't until later in the summer that I found out that HSC (brood/tall) frames are small cell. Did that cause the problems. I think so because I couldn't get the queens to lay or stay. Even when I replaced a few of the HSC with wax foundation.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

USCBeeMan said:


> I think so because I couldn't get the queens to lay


This was *one* of the problems I encountered when I attempted to 'regress' some hives a few years ago. As I migrated from 5.1 to 4.9 some of my queens would absolutely refuse to lay in the 4.9. I moved those queens to hives with conventional foundation and they filled frame after frame with beautiful brood.


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## longrangedog (Jun 24, 2007)

Jennifer Berry has done small cell experiments at the University of Georgia where she is a member of the entomology department run by Dr. Delaplane. You can probably google Jennifer Berry + small cell and find her publications. Her conclusion was that small cell had no effect on the mite population. All evidence that I am aware of supporting the effectiveness of small cell is anecdotal.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

If folks are serious about putting their bees on small cell, you simply MUST read the related materials. You cannot just put bees on small cell, they must be regressed... it occurs in stages. 

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm on regular foundation, and going foundationless. I'm not going to go small cell. If the bees do, that's fine with me. But when we try anything, there are certain protocols to follow, discovered and shared by those who have already made the mistakes. They have learned from their mistakes, and seek to share their knowledge with us. To ignore that information is simply to make the same mistakes, and wonder why something didn't work.

Now, regarding different size cells in the hives. Research shows the bees build what they need. Worker size for workers, drone size for drones, and large cells for honey/nectar storage. They have a reason for doing what they do. I don't understand their reasoning all the time, but I don't have to. All I have to do is pay attention to them, and allow the bees to be bees. I can minimize the drone cell population of the hive, but the little darlings will always build what they need.

Does small cell work? Many have demonstrated so. But there IS NO SHORTCUT! The bees have to be regressed. It occurs in stages. You can't do it all at once. So please! for your sake, if you go this route, do the reading, and learn how to regress in stages. Then you won't blame the bees, or the purveyors of small cell foundation for your haste and errors. :lookout:
Regards,
Steven


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

USCBeeMan said:


> How are people going to learn if they don't ask questions and give their opinions/thoughts.
> 
> Will say this. I put 2 packages on totally HSC last spring. Eventually lost both hives no matter what I did. It wasn't until later in the summer that I found out that HSC (brood/tall) frames are small cell. Did that cause the problems. I think so because I couldn't get the queens to lay or stay. Even when I replaced a few of the HSC with wax foundation.


Were they an Italian breed ?


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

longrangedog said:


> Jennifer Berry has done small cell experiments at the University of Georgia where she is a member of the entomology department run by Dr. Delaplane. You can probably google Jennifer Berry + small cell and find her publications. Her conclusion was that small cell had no effect on the mite population. All evidence that I am aware of supporting the effectiveness of small cell is anecdotal.


 This is the article that I had read, glad someone knew where it was. Sounds like 4.9 small cell is not only useless, it is harmful to production I believe in ways that haven't even been mentioned here. IE can more small bees make more honey than 5.1 or larger bees can? will they swarm quicker? I will not be finding out from experience!!:no:


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

StevenG said:


> Does small cell work? Many have demonstrated so.
> 
> I'm not saying you're not right, but I would like to know who has made it work and what were the benefits?


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

Right,you don't just put a package of non regressed bees in a hive with small cell foundations and expect them to survive. That's why people lose so many. All package bees are not regressed. They don't tell people this when they buy bees. Then we have long time bee keepers who make splits and don't know this and they buy small cell foundations. Bingo,they lose them.


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

In the world of beekeeping we have a lot of people who believe in all sorts of things that are counter to the body of published science. Let me list a few of the beliefs that are not backed up with science. 

small cell
mineral oil fogging for mites
Bayer Imid is cause of CCD
essential oils for mites
biodynamic beekeeping
CCD (whenever there's a deadout with no bees)

The common theme of the believers is that when challenged with science that does not jive with their beliefs then the science is tainted by corporations etc and can not be trusted. 

So its your choice Son - science or religion - you got to believe in something relative to keeping bees.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

valleyman said:


> This is the article that I had read, glad someone knew where it was. Sounds like 4.9 small cell is not only useless, it is harmful to production I believe in ways that haven't even been mentioned here. IE can more small bees make more honey than 5.1 or larger bees can? will they swarm quicker? I will not be finding out from experience!!:no:


I believe regressed bees work as good as non but the problem is,many places sell non regressed bees and they don't work on small cell foundation.The breed of bees is what makes more honey. Same with swarming,some swarm more then others and some are more hard to control swarming then others.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

CID
I believe that this is a belief that has been proven by science/research not to accomplish what it was developed for. I agree that those that are selling 4.9 foundation should make it clear that bigger bees won't work on it. If someone wants to raise the smaller bees that is their business. But I think that they may be over exaggerating the benefits. Thats why I would like to know from someone that has experienced the benefits that aren't trying to sell them. You must realize the 4.9 bees could have been regressed from naturally mite resistant bees. I think we have enough decisions to make about what genetics, size and type woodenware, what, how, and when to feed, ETC.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

if small cell foundation kills bees, why are mine alive??

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've had no trouble throwing large cell package bees on Mann Lake PF120s (4.95mm) and they draw it perfectly and thrive quite well. People make things too complicated...


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> Were they an Italian breed ?


Yep!


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> I've had no trouble throwing large cell package bees on Mann Lake PF120s (4.95mm) and they draw it perfectly and thrive quite well. People make things too complicated...


I don't doubt that the bee's will work the small cell foundation (wax or plastic). But using HSC isn't the same thing. It was ignorance on my part not knowing that the plastic comb was small cell not large cell. They didn't make it and the queen didn't know what to do with it. 

I wonder if she had a hard time trying to lay eggs in the plastic comb or was it just not natural for her since she was a mated queen and had already layed in large cell comb?

But all is not lost with the small cell brood HSC. I will use it with my 2 new small cell nucs arriving this spring. Plus, I could probably use some for honey supering either as high box supers or cut them down for med and or small supering. Michael, I believe you were the one that told me to cut them down to supering size.


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm confused!! In the cut outs I have done, the combs are arranged in long strips usually filling the space from ceiling to floor between the two 2x4's in the wall. Within those long strips of comb, there is clearly a centralized brood area surrounded by nectar/honey storage in the outer portions of the combs. Within that brood area there is a mixture of cells for brood, drones and pollen storage. I have never measured these cells in the brood area, but am I to understand from what others have said they are different sizes?

If they are different sizes in a feral colony, then the management concept of putting bees on all one size brood foundation, be it standard or 4.9, is contrary to what the bees do or need. If this is true, then it would seem to be logical to manage bees with foundationless in the brood boxes.

Am I on the right line of thinking here?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

USCBeeMan said:


> They didn't make it and the queen didn't know what to do with it.


USCBM,

There is a lot of resistance before the bees use HSC, even when it is treated with a little wax or HBH. I have three hives and each one has some HSC that is accepted. I'm going to retrive as much as I can this year for use in nucs. 

Some of mine was dipped in wax and was accepted fairly well.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

This thread is going all over the place. No wonder I can't make sense of it. Let's go back and read what was originally posted. The thread title is *Small cell bee foundations.

"*I’m interested in nailing down why people lose hives, was it diseases and pests or factory foundation cell size or some of all. There is a cause for CCD, I want to find out what it is. It looks like most people don’t really know why they lose hives but there is a reason for CCD. So I would like those of you who lost hives to answer all questions, please."

This was prefaced by pointing out Dennis' experience with SC and the posters belief that people lose bees due to "place[ing] them in small cells not knowing what will happen."

As if SC didn't have enough controversy around it, now we are attaching it to CCD! I didn't realize Hackenberg used SC in his hives. :doh:


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I have never said that the larger bees won't work on 4.9 cells. Others have and I will say that in some cases they will and some they won't according to the threads here. No one has yet told me that they know for sure that they reduce mites. Which would be in contradiction to the University of Georgia research and report. I beleive that if they did reduce mites that they were regressed from mite resistance bees.
Micheal, I have nothing but respect for your opinion so that is why I'm posing this question to you. You said some people make things too complicated, so isn't having 4.9 bees making beekeeping more complicated. Can you tell me the benifit of the 4.9 bees?


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

ACBEES said:


> If they are different sizes in a feral colony, then the management concept of putting bees on all one size brood foundation, be it standard or 4.9, is contrary to what the bees do or need. If this is true, then it would seem to be logical to manage bees with foundationless in the brood boxes.
> 
> Am I on the right line of thinking here?


:applause: That's exactly why I'm going foundationless. As M. Bush says, we make things too complicated. The bees were here long before us, and they'll be here long after us. And as pointed out, going foundationless eliminates contamination in the brood nest via contaminated foundation. Plus you don't have to spray, dip, or otherwise treat plastic to get the bees to draw out foundation. It just seems to me that foundationless solves so many problems. Of course, when I make the switch this spring, I may be in for a few surprises! :lpf: Life is so much fun! And keeping bees makes it even more interesting! Now, back out to the shop, got some hives to build.
Regards,
Steven


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> You can't put all size of bees on one same size cell foundations.


And yet this worked well for, what? about, 150 years? What happened all of a sudden to cause these die offs? Foundation size? I don't see it. Michael Bush's first post is more like it. IMO.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

USCBeeMan said:


> It was ignorance on my part ...


You're not alone there USCBeeMan. In the end it will be found that it was ignorance that killed the CCD colonies.


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> You're not alone there USCBeeMan. In the end it will be found that it was ignorance that killed the CCD colonies.



Can you specify please?


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

valleyman said:


> CID
> I believe that this is a belief that has been proven by science/research not to accomplish what it was developed for. I agree that those that are selling 4.9 foundation should make it clear that bigger bees won't work on it. If someone wants to raise the smaller bees that is their business. But I think that they may be over exaggerating the benefits. Thats why I would like to know from someone that has experienced the benefits that aren't trying to sell them. You must realize the 4.9 bees could have been regressed from naturally mite resistant bees. I think we have enough decisions to make about what genetics, size and type woodenware, what, how, and when to feed, ETC.


I agree with all this you say,I knew I was on to something when I started really thinking about this small cell thing. I knew all along you couldn't make bees except cells smaller then they naturaly made.Then I read about how they regressed many bees of to make them except small cells.The regressed bees work fine in small cells but the problem is when you try to put non regressed bees in small cells.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

drobbins said:


> if small cell foundation kills bees, why are mine alive??
> 
> Dave


You most likely have regressed bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

laurelmtnlover said:


> Can you specify please?


Sure. Ignorance of bee biology and behavior. Ignorance of mite biology and life cycle. Ignorance of what is in ones hives. The bees, the wax, the chemicals. Ignorance of what happens when certain miticides are combined in a hive by their build up in the comb.

I'm sure others can come up w/ a better and more comprehensive list.

Of the colonies that I own which have died in the last 12 months, the majority of them that died did so because I didn't know what I needed to know at the right time and then doing something about it.

Figure out what will keep your colonies alive and then do it. Keep bees. Pay attention to your colonies. Manage only the number that you can properly pay attention to or manage more and put up w/ the losses.

Breed from the live ones.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> I've had no trouble throwing large cell package bees on Mann Lake PF120s (4.95mm) and they draw it perfectly and thrive quite well. People make things too complicated...


Michael,I'm not saying all bees that have not been regressed will not accept small cell foundations. I believe some of the smaller in nature bees will except them but it's the larger bees like the Italian that has not been regressed are the ones people have problems with excepting the small cell.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

USCBeeMan said:


> Yep!


Yelp.they were Italian,that's what I thought.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

USCBeeMan said:


> I don't doubt that the bee's will work the small cell foundation (wax or plastic). But using HSC isn't the same thing. It was ignorance on my part not knowing that the plastic comb was small cell not large cell. They didn't make it and the queen didn't know what to do with it.
> 
> I wonder if she had a hard time trying to lay eggs in the plastic comb or was it just not natural for her since she was a mated queen and had already layed in large cell comb?
> 
> But all is not lost with the small cell brood HSC. I will use it with my 2 new small cell nucs arriving this spring. Plus, I could probably use some for honey supering either as high box supers or cut them down for med and or small supering. Michael, I believe you were the one that told me to cut them down to supering size.


US,I think you got it. A large queen bee just can't back her rear in a small cell to lay eggs.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

ACBEES said:


> I'm confused!! In the cut outs I have done, the combs are arranged in long strips usually filling the space from ceiling to floor between the two 2x4's in the wall. Within those long strips of comb, there is clearly a centralized brood area surrounded by nectar/honey storage in the outer portions of the combs. Within that brood area there is a mixture of cells for brood, drones and pollen storage. I have never measured these cells in the brood area, but am I to understand from what others have said they are different sizes?
> 
> If they are different sizes in a feral colony, then the management concept of putting bees on all one size brood foundation, be it standard or 4.9, is contrary to what the bees do or need. If this is true, then it would seem to be logical to manage bees with foundationless in the brood boxes.
> 
> Am I on the right line of thinking here?


All correct.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

BeeCurious said:


> USCBM,
> 
> There is a lot of resistance before the bees use HSC, even when it is treated with a little wax or HBH. I have three hives and each one has some HSC that is accepted. I'm going to retrive as much as I can this year for use in nucs.
> 
> Some of mine was dipped in wax and was accepted fairly well.


In the past we sprayed ours with suggar water and let it dry,that works good also. We are going to all natural foundationless now though.


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

This is very interesting to me as I heal from a fractured tibia. I have a question- what is HSC?


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

HSC=Honey Super Cell


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

Barry said:


> This thread is going all over the place. No wonder I can't make sense of it. Let's go back and read what was originally posted. The thread title is *Small cell bee foundations.
> 
> "*I’m interested in nailing down why people lose hives, was it diseases and pests or factory foundation cell size or some of all. There is a cause for CCD, I want to find out what it is. It looks like most people don’t really know why they lose hives but there is a reason for CCD. So I would like those of you who lost hives to answer all questions, please."
> 
> ...


Here is how you regress bees. You can't put all small cell foundations in a hive of bees that have not been regressed. That is a big mistake old and new bee keepers do.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/cellregression.html

http://www.beeuntoothers.com/Bees.html

http://bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=honey bee regressing&fr=mcsaoffblock


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

> Michael,I'm not saying all bees that have not been regressed will not accept small cell foundations. I believe some of the smaller in nature bees will except them but it's the larger bees like the Italian that has not been regressed are the ones people have problems with excepting the small cell.


Are Italian bees really larger than Carniolan or Russian? I don't think it's all that cut & dry. I've put Italian, Russian, and Carniolan bees on Mann Lake PF-120 and have had them do very well, just as Michael has. For the most part the cells drawn are 4.9-5mm, but I've seen them draw larger cells on this small cell foundation, so apparently they're not constrained to just drawing 4.9 on it, but I think that's what they prefer in the main broodnest. I've also used small cell wax foundation and often find them building drone comb with it if they feel there's not enough drones in the hive. Some frames can even look like they're trying to do abstract artwork...LOL!

I've had the worst acceptance with HSC, and that's understandable.....it's totally drawn plastic at 4.9....totally non-malleable, the bees can't do anything with it. If I were a bee I wouldn't want to do anything with it either.

Are we to think that by forcing bees to raise brood in HSC that we're somehow "teaching" them , or "training" them, thereby "regressing" them in one generation to then build small cell brood comb from then on? I wonder about this whole regressing thing whether it's more of an issue within our own minds,.... than it is with the bees.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> And yet this worked well for, what? about, 150 years? What happened all of a sudden to cause these die offs? Foundation size? I don't see it. Michael Bush's first post is more like it. IMO.


They didn't make small cell foundations 150 yrs ago. When they started making them,they were more closer to the size the bees made before they were regressed.Then after they regressed bees,they started making small cell foundations and most bees that have not been regressed will not use small cell foundations.Bees naturaly draw about 3-4 different size cells and different breed of bees again draw differen size cells. About all they sell now are small cell foundations. You can't put all small cell foundations in a hive with non regressed bees. Not knowing a lot of old and new bee keepers buy or split non regressed bees and put them in hives with all small cell foundations and bingo,the queen don't lay or lays very little and they all die or they kill the queen and make a new one and who knows what other problems take place if you still leave all small cell foundation in the hive.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> You're not alone there USCBeeMan. In the end it will be found that it was ignorance that killed the CCD colonies.


Right ignorance, because people put non regressed bees in a hive with all small cell foundations and the queen can't lay or lays very little,so the hive keeps superseding the queen and the hive sooner or later dies because they can't get a queen that lays good in small cells. How can a big queen back her hind end up in a to small of a cell ?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

laurelmtnlover said:


> - what is HSC?


This might be helpful:

http://www.honeysupercell.com/


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

150 years ago foundation had barely been invented (1857 Wax-comb foundation invented by Johannes Mehring) and it was all around 5.0mm to 5.08mm. After a while the Italians made it as small as 4.4mm. Baudoux pushed the idea of larger and gradually it grew to the current 5.4mm... if you don't think 5.0-5.08mm is small cell, then what would you call it? it's closer to 4.9mm than to 5.4mm by a long shot.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#historiccellsize


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> Here is how you regress bees.


CIB, I'm well aware of the "how to" process. I was one of the first to completely convert all my hives over to SC by regressing according to the Lusby's back in the late 1990's. I helped "write the book" as they say.

You make such grandiose statements that discredit most of what you write. Very few people, percentage wise, use SC foundation (4.9) compared to the more "standard" 5.2 - 5.4. You won't find any SC in commercial hives which by far make up the lions share of CCD hives.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How can a big queen back her hind end up in a to small of a cell ? 

In my experience quite easily.

The resistance to the HSC by the bees is because of the plastic. When I end up with the same size by wax dipping PermaComb there are no acceptance problems at all.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> Right ignorance, because people put non regressed bees in a hive with all small cell foundations and the queen can't lay or lays very little,so the hive keeps superseding the queen and the hive sooner or later dies because they can't get a queen that lays good in small cells. How can a big queen back her hind end up in a to small of a cell ?


Your *theories* are absolutely contrary to my *real life EXPERIENCE*.

I purchased two colonies last March (double deeps), both on large cells. Immediately split to four (both large cells); and immediately began 'cold turkey' forced regression when I received my honeysupercell and MannLake small cell plastic frames. Purchased Breeder MHQ which came from commercial migratory beek around first of April (and he is also on large cell), to make my splits. These were his best producers from his prior year honey harvest so when he moved to Texas he used these as his breeders to make nucs, but he was finished raising queens for his nucs and divides so I purchased some of his breeders. I am currently up to 8 colonies, all on small cell now, and all previously were on large cell except for a captured swarm(except for 2 large cell frames that I have not removed but will remove this spring). I purchased 20 of the honeysuper cell, and the MannLake plastic small cell frames, both medium and deeps. Made other divides June through July, and most of the divides were directly from large cell colonies directly to small cells. I just wish I had more time to refute most of your posting, but sorry I am (as most beeks down here in Texas) to busy. I have not lost any colonies (yet, but have one weak) from my original large cells (which are now all on small cells, nor on my splits. First of March I will be splitting to about 20+ colonies.


Kindest Regards
DRU


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> Do you know the signs of diseases and pests ?


 *Yes*



Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> Were your bees heavily infested with diseases or pests ? What kind ?


 *When I purchased them they had small Hive beatles.*



Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> Did your bees draw (make)their own foundations and comb for the brood ?


 Not initially, both double deep colonies were on large cells wood frames fully drawn wax foundations, However, when I forced them on Mann Lake small plastic cells they drew out the small cell (plastic) frames and did it just fine.



Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> Were there ants in your hive


*A few fire ants but not many, mostly on the outside, every once in a while I will see a few inside.*



Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> Did they die during the winter


*No, so far I have not lost any; although I have one that is a little weak; but I doubt that I will lose it. But the winter is not over with yet!*



Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> Were the hives strong 50-60 thousand bees ?


 *I had four which were 2 mediums and 1 deep and very strong. I had three which were 1 medium and 1 deep and of medium strength. And I had one that was one deep with an empty medium that had frames which were not drawn out. *



Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> Did they have a lot of store for the winter ?


* Three colonies had 80-90#, Three colonies had 60-70#; One colony had about 50#; and the weak colony had about 40#.*



Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> How long did you have the hive before you lost it ?


 *I didn't lose any.*



Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> If it was Italian bees you lost,did you put small cell foundations in the hive ?


 *I have two clonies that are from MHQ that look Italian, and one that is Cordovan. They are all on small cell and I haven't lost any.*


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> They didn't make small cell foundations 150 yrs ago.


My point was that what has been in use for all this time has seemed to work just fine. Hasn't it?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

It has for me Mark ! An interesting side note, I spoke to Nick Calderone (Cornell-Dyce) in Feb. 2008 and he was planning on doing some testing with small cell and espeically honey super-cell. Guess someone ought to do a search and see if he published anything?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

OK let's add Randy Oliver's study to the discussion:

http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51

At the end Randy writes:

"I have no desire whatsoever to enter into the small cell debate. The sheer number of small cell beekeepers claiming success with the method, plus the fact that natural combs typically contain smaller cells in the middle of the brood nest, lead me to keep an open mind on the subject. I am eager to see the results of further controlled trials, of both HoneySuperCell and small cell (or variable cell) in general."


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

DRUR said:


> Your *theories* are absolutely contrary to my *real life EXPERIENCE*.
> 
> I purchased two colonies last March (double deeps), both on large cells.


How do you know they were not regressed bees with larg cell foundations ? Any regressed bees will do fine on lg. cell foundations. It's the lg. non regressed bees that some don't do good on small cells.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

CIB,

what exactly do you define to be a "regressed bee"?
obviously it's a bee that has been "regressed", but what does this process *do*?
what actual changes occurs in these bees during this process?
why can these bees survive life on small cell foundation and is there a reason we should or should not want to have these bees?
according to your theory my bees must be "regressed" since they thrive on small cell comb and I wonder if this (having bees that thrive) is a good or a bad thing

just curious for your insight on these issues.

Dave


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> Michael,I'm not saying all bees that have not been regressed will not accept small cell foundations. I believe some of the smaller in nature bees will except them but it's the larger bees like the Italian that has not been regressed are the ones people have problems with excepting the small cell.


CIB,...you say that Italian bees are larger. On what source are you basing this information? When you opened this thread you posted a number of links, one of which seems to contradict your assertion that Italian bees are larger....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_bee

....on that Wiki page about Italians , under "Anatomy"...."Size: The bodies are smaller and their overhairs shorter than those of the darker honeybee races "


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

CIB, several of us are working our bees, trying different things, studying them. I kept 16 hives 20 years ago, and am now up to 14 going to 32+ this year. Several different genetic strains as I learn about them and experiement with them.

So, how many hives are you running? What strains of bees? Types of foundation? How are you testing/experimenting? On what personal experience are you basing your judgements? Curious folks want to know.
Thanks,
Steven


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

drobbins said:


> CIB,
> 
> what exactly do you define to be a "regressed bee"?
> obviously it's a bee that has been "regressed", but what does this process *do*?
> ...


Regressed bees are bees that are made smaller and they do good in small cell foundations and are good bees. They regress them because they say they are mite resistant and many say they are better honey producers. I don't believe they are better bees. Different breed of bees are better then other with out being regressed and are as good as regressed bees.Check these links for info.

http://bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/cellregression.html


http://www.beeuntoothers.com/Bees.html

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=honey bee regressing&fr=mcsaoffblock


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

CIB,
Are you just searching the internet and books for your cause or are you a beekeeper looking to better manage your bees? What race of honey bees do you have? Have you been losing bees also? How long have you been a beekeeper? How many lbs of honey did your hives average last year? Do you use any treatments for varroa, nosema, AFB, EFB,chalkbrood, SHB, swarming, theft,bears,skunks, raccoons, and vandals? Do you buy nucs or packages?


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

For a thread going nowhere it's now 7 pages long! opcorn:


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> How do you know they were not regressed bees with larg cell foundations ? Any regressed bees will do fine on lg. cell foundations. It's the lg. non regressed bees that some don't do good on small cells.


:doh:Because, I asked him and told him that I was looking for small cell colonies. He was moving from Southeast Texas to Canada. He had Buckfast bees supposedly, but I guess he lied to me about them being from large cell so that maybe I wouldn't purchase them. Let's see, he was a 7th day Adventist preacher, and I have not found them to be bad about lying especially if the truth would have been better :lpf:. He treated his, as did the migratory beek which I purchased the breeder MHQ from to make my splits and to requeen with. The migratory beek was on large cell also, or so he said, but, I guess he also lied to me and really was on small cell. I have not treated mine, and they all did just fine from large cell to small cell, except one of the MHQ splitts, but she had the honeysupercell and wouldn't lay in them. After I had some drawnout mannlake small cells to drop in, she did just fine laying in those, seemed like she just didn't like the plastic honeysuper cell with the drawn out plastic cells. 

You might aslo, contact tecumseh and see if he is on small cell. I am betting he is large cell. You see I purchased the MHQ (Cordovan) from him and that queen had no problems laying on small cell even though I didn't get the queen until October. She filled up a coulple of small cell deep frames with solid brood in about a week and half. I actually watched her laying for about 15 minutes and she is a beauty. I like the Cordovan color but I guess I will see how she does with the mites, but so far so good on small cell.

I don't know where you get your information on large and small cell, but your presumptions and assumptions are *WRONG*.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

denny said:


> CIB,...you say that Italian bees are larger. On what source are you basing this information? When you opened this thread you posted a number of links, one of which seems to contradict your assertion that Italian bees are larger....
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_bee
> 
> ....on that Wiki page about Italians , under "Anatomy"...."Size: The bodies are smaller and their overhairs shorter than those of the darker honeybee races "


You know,it's hard to tell what is truth. I read so much false info about bees every place. That's why i'm trying to figure out all this mess for myself. We have larger Italian bees called Texas Italian that are larger then the dark bees we have that are starline buckfast beesmart line we have. Then we have the cordovan Italian that is not as big as the Texas Italian. They cross bred and regress and who knows what else,who knows what is truth ? Not me.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

StevenG said:


> CIB, several of us are working our bees, trying different things, studying them.Me too. I kept 16 hives 20 years ago, and am now up to 14 going to 32+ this year. Several different genetic strains as I learn about them and experiement with them.Me too
> 
> So, how many hives are you running? 10 What strains of bees? 3,texas Italian,cordovan,starline buckfastbeesmart line. Types of foundation? plastic,going to foundationless How are you testing/experimenting? no pest control,building different hives,market the new hives,trying to get the best strain of bees to market,just trying to do everything better for a better bee and life of the bee.Will give you mor info later. On what personal experience are you basing your judgements? Just trying to figure thins for our self because there is so much false info about bees. Curious folks want to know.
> Thanks,
> Steven


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

Beeslave said:


> CIB,
> Are you just searching the internet and books for your cause or are you a beekeeper looking to better manage your bees? BothWhat race of honey bees do you have? Texas Italian,cordovan,starline buckfast beesmart line Have you been losing bees also? one we think to large bees in small cells. How long have you been a beekeeper? a year going on twoHow many lbs of honey did your hives average last year? not much,just getting goingDo you use any treatments for varroa,NO nosema,NO AFB,NO EFBNO,chalkbrood, NOSHB,Small entrance swarming,splits theft,small entrancebears,no bears hereskunksnone around but have chicken wire on bottoms on hive stands, raccoons, Chicken wireand vandals?they get stung and stay away Do you buy nucs or packages?started with packages and will buy more for different breeds and do splits and buy queens and will start raising our own queens this yr.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

DRUR said:


> :doh:She filled up a coulple of small cell deep frames with solid brood in about a week and half. I actually watched her laying for about 15 minutes and she is a beauty. I like the Cordovan color but I guess I will see how she does with the mites, but so far so good on small cell.
> .


My cordovans do great too,all mine doing great now.Love my bees.all does good with mites and all,no treatment and on small cell but going to foundationless


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> You know,it's hard to tell what is truth. I read so much false info about bees every place. That's why i'm trying to figure out all this mess for myself. We have larger Italian bees called Texas Italian that are larger then the dark bees we have that are starline buckfast beesmart line we have. Then we have the cordovan Italian that is not as big as the Texas Italian. They cross bred and regress and who knows what else,who knows what is truth ? Not me.


Well, I've heard of Texas being the origin of all things larger,...guess that goes for bees,too. 

Good luck with your bees and thanks for your candid & unassuming reply. 


"Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river."....Cyril Connolly


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

I'm not kidding,the all american bee also called the texas Italian bee. From Texas.

http://rweaver.com/

unassuming is a big word for Vermont.


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## SugarBeeCo (May 27, 2009)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> Michael,I'm not saying all bees that have not been regressed will not accept small cell foundations. I believe some of the smaller in nature bees will except them but it's the larger bees like the Italian that has not been regressed are the ones people have problems with excepting the small cell.


No problem here adding small foundation/cell frames to large cell nucs. I started two hives last year, one Italian, one Carniolan and didn't know any better since all of the equipment was a gift and it was my first season as a beekeeper. Both hives have thrived and things look promising for this Spring.

This season I'm going foundationless, so I guess the bees will get to decide how big to make their cells.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joel said:


> It has for me Mark ! An interesting side note, I spoke to Nick Calderone (Cornell-Dyce) in Feb. 2008 and he was planning on doing some testing with small cell and espeically honey super-cell. Guess someone ought to do a search and see if he published anything?


Someone should do a search and find out why he didn't show up for his talk at ABF conference.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

The best way to learn may be to first sit down and read some books (ABC, Hive and the Honeybee, etc.) on the subject of bees and beekeeping before spouting off opinions based on surfing the internet. People here are happy to answer questions. It is obvious you are young and do not have much experience. This is embarrassing....


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

Just read your profile and it states you are 64. My bad. Hmmm. Wonder why I made this mistake.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

BeeCurious said:


> OK let's add Randy Oliver's study to the discussion:


it's also worth noting that randy (on bee-l) has more recently commmented that his bees on hsc "refuse to die" despite the fact that most of them remain untreated.

he seems to be advancing the theory that the offgassing of the plastic in the hsc must be killing the mites.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> he seems to be advancing the theory that the offgassing of the plastic in the hsc must be killing the mites.
> 
> deknow


Interesting. Why wouldn't it kill the bees too?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

beekeepers put all kinds of things into the hive with the goal of killing mites and not bees.

but i think if he really believed this, he would grind up some hsc frames and put a bag of chips (like a bag of menthol) in the hive....he hasn't (as far as i know).

imho, the lack of drone population _might_ have something to do with it. of course, we know it can't be small cell....as it's been "proven" not to work 

deknow


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Interesting. Why wouldn't it kill the bees too?


Perhaps for the same reason formic acid, in the doses prescribed, kills mites but not the bees.

Wayne


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Yes, but all, or most of those treatment chemicals (including formic acid) do kill bees, many times not immediately or usually not all, but they do kill bees, and some of them can harm other living creatures too. I, for one, certainly wouldn't want to have most of those treatments (even formic acid) in my food, even in trace amounts. If a bee would live for 28 days without treatments and a treatment caused it to die after 21 days, then it might be said that the treatment killed it (at the least the treatment shortened its life by 25%).

Similar to prescription drugs in humans, which can help you feel better, or sometimes, if you're sensitive, they can cause side-effects that may even kill you. Some "medicines" help you feel better while you live, but may cause you to die earlier. We humans can usually make the decision as to which medicines we take, or none at all, but we make those decisions for our bees.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Isn't Formic Acid a natural occuring substance in honey?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Nope, that's oxalic acid. Formic acid is what some insects use in their "stings" (not bee stings), but especially ants.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

there seems to be quite a bit of confusion over the history of cell sizing. i don't have time to write the whole thing out, but you should read what was written in the old books, not what is written in modern books about what was.

http://books.google.com/books?id=x59lAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA176#v=onepage&q=&f=false

this will give you a start...make sure to look at the second column on that page, it talks about the upsizing _before_ it happened.

deknow


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

SugarBeeCo said:


> No problem here adding small foundation/cell frames to large cell nucs. I started two hives last year, one Italian, one Carniolan and didn't know any better since all of the equipment was a gift and it was my first season as a beekeeper. Both hives have thrived and things look promising for this Spring.


How do you know they were not regressed bees ? Regressed bees do great in small and lg.cell.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

do regressed bees placed on large cell comb "unregress"?
if not, were the bees regressed or unregressed before humans invented foundation?

Michael Bush has an excellent writeup on the history of cell size, you might want to read it over

Dave


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

dave, if you read the link i posted above to the old abc of beeculture, you will see that cells were smaller....smaller than 5.08mm....before foundation, and that there was a plan to enlarge the bees via larger cell sized foundation and selection. this plan was not ambiguous, just read root's account above!

deknow


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

drobbins said:


> do regressed bees placed on large cell comb "unregress"?Yes
> if not, were the bees regressed or unregressed before humans invented foundation?UN
> 
> Michael Bush has an excellent writeup on the history of cell size, you might want to read it over
> ...


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

deknow said:


> dave, if you read the link i posted above to the old abc of beeculture, you will see that cells were smaller....smaller than 5.08mm....before foundation, and that there was a plan to enlarge the bees via larger cell sized foundation and selection. this plan was not ambiguous, just read root's account above!
> 
> deknow


But then the plan was to regress large bees to small bees and that they did,All regressed bees by nature was much larger. So now they got large regressed bees in small cells. Bees use to make all size cells and still do if there not put on all small cells.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I want some of whatever you are smoking. I can make a lot of money selling it.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Now I know how Alice felt in Wonderland... :scratch:


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

Does anyone know what size cells are on these plastic frames and foundations ? I E-mailed these people and ask them and they don't answer.
Golden bee.

http://www.golden-bee.com/cart.php?target=category&category_id=269

Also,what do you consider to be standard size cell 5.4-5.5 ? These places that sell foundations don't put the cell sizes.


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

From what I'm reading, industry standard cell size for foundation is 5.4mm, but there are slight variations from each manufacturer. Michael bush's site has a summary of cell sizes within each manufacturers product.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Here's the list of the ones I've measured:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#cellsizes


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

I notice that some bee supply places list saying what foundations are small cell (guess4.9)but don't say what their other ones are. I guess when they don't say small cell(guess4.9),then there standard(guess5.4-5.5).
I still don't know what cell size the plastic frame and foundation that Golden bee supply sell. They don't say small or lg. cell or anything.
Another thing I see,alot of these bee places that sell bees,don't return your call or E-mail or answer their phones when you call and their voice mail is full.

http://www.golden-bee.com/


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