# Epi Pens?



## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

You will have to convince your doctor that you need the prescription. Like what if 1000 bees sting you when you are working them one day?
An anti-histamine, like Benadryl will treat bee stings also. Epinephrine is for anaphylactic shock.


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## VAMOM (Dec 27, 2011)

I work with pediatricians and have just discussed this with one of them. He looked up the stats and only 0.4% of people have an anaphylactic reaction to bees. They are the only ones that need an Epi pen. If I remember correctly, it said that the anaphylactic reaction takes place within the first 20 minutes of the sting but no later than 2 hours. He said that you must call 911 as soon as an Epi pen is administered and he recommended getting the twin pack so that if the paramedics take longer than 15 minutes the second Epi pen is used. There are also two different doses for them, the Jr. is for up to 60 or 65 lbs and the regular one for over that. 
And yes, you do need a prescription. I took a trip into the Amazon jungle over ten years ago and the docs made me take some Epi pens with me (just in case). When I got them back then, they came with a “practice pen” for you to practice using one. Not sure if they still come that way or if the doctor wrote the prescription in a way so that it was included. 
Just give your doctor a call. If you have been stung before and just had a regular reaction then you should not need an Epi pen for yourself, but it’s a good thing to have if you have people visiting your hives.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Beekeeper beeware. Everyone should have one of these in every vehicle used in the business. 

Had a guy helping in the late 90's. He left for construction when that boomed. Came back when it tanked. First day back had one nasty /bad reaction to a sting. He was breathing ike a fish out of water. Not fun to see or watch. Ran to meet him with the epi and jammed it through the beesuit, pants and all for an instantaneous cure. Faster than a guy turning his head towards a hot chick. All I can say its one of the best bucks spent in the bee business.... cheap insurance.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is this a universal belief?

I've never seen one... I saw a picture of one once...


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## twintrades (Jul 17, 2011)

My next door neighbor is allergic. And I dont know if my kid is yet. We bought 2 kinds the adult and child. I hope I never have to use them. There only good for about 6 months. So I'll replace mine in the summer. I'll put 2 in my swarm box/ so that every time I check the hive i can cover any one......


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

Naw. Don't buy one. You arn't worth it to your family and your mate and kids arn't either. Just make sure you carry very good life insurance on everyone. Since a persons reaction to a sting can change over night without any indicator or warning how you reacted today doesn't really mean anything tomorrow. Just think how much bee stuff you can buy with the $50,000 insurance payout and how much you'll save not having to pay for school when they don't grow up.


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## jadell (Jun 19, 2011)

twintrades said:


> There only good for about 6 months. So I'll replace mine in the summer.......


They actually have experation dates on them. If the fluid isn't clear, it's bad.


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## jadell (Jun 19, 2011)

Ranger,
They aren't cheap. There's no need to have one if everyone around you isn't allergic. I think it's safe to say that there are epi-pens on almost every fire truck in the country. Call your local fire department and ask. Most of them aren't 20 mins away from you. Your physician knows best.

For everyone else giving medical advice,
Please stop if you aren't a medical professional.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

Epi-pens are expensive and expire frequently (about once a year). If money is not an issue, or you have strangers potentially getting stung, or your bee yards are far from the nearest ER, it can provide peace of mind and could save a life in the rare event of a life-threatening reaction. Severe allergic reactions are rare enough that most beekeepers don't worry about it, but not quite rare enough not to bear worrying about. Many on here, including myself, have had allergic responses of varying degrees during beekeeping. Luckily in my case it was not life-threatening, desensitization worked, and I no longer react to stings. I have an epi-pen now but have never used it.

Two groups of people have very low chances of developing an allergy: 1) those who are never stung and 2) those who are stung very frequently (on the order of once a week). Among those who are stung occasionally, the risk of experiencing an allergic reaction at some point may be closer to 10%, with about 3% experiencing severe, potentially life-threatening reactions. 

I've posted these papers before, but they provide a good summary of current research into bee sting allergy in both beekeepers and the general public.

http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/Marterre.2006a copy.pdf
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/Marterre.2006b copy.pdf

Mark


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## aschueler (Oct 26, 2011)

I am not "giving medical advice", but I am a physician in real life. Please don't spam PM's at me.

With regard to epinephrine: I can and do give out prescriptions for epi-pens almost freely. I have had to give injections of epinephrine myself to people having anaphylactic shock, and can agree it's scary as heck to see someone crumpling in front of you quickly. However, epinephrine if given in the wrong circumstance can be pretty harmful. I saw a young lady have a heart attack because she received too much epinephrine, once "in the field" and then again by a well meaning paramedic who figured two doses wouldn't hurt, I guess, or didn't believe she had the first. Anyway, it is a powerful drug. I hesitate to say that every bee keeper should have an epipen/epipen jr on hand, as indiscriminate use is very harmful. However, it DOES seem reasonable to me having seen all sides of this coin. 

I am a new beekeeper, actually don't even have my bees yet, but I will have an epipen and epipen jr on hand. I have a wife a 3 year old son who have no known allergy to bee stings, but I am also in a rural area. I don't know what the cost is, but I will likely buy these outright without insurance per se, and I think it will be about 50 bucks. If I replace them twice yearly, $100 ain't bad to avoid seeing someone crumple in front of me while I think "Crap, I know how to fix this"

Oh, and I have seen people who would have died within minutes (less than 20 minutes) without epinephrine....and people often hesitate to call EMS until they KNOW there is a problem, and not every EMS vehicle etc has epi.


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## Island Apiaries (Aug 9, 2010)

I agree that each beekeeper should have one on hand. Yes the statistic say that it is unlikely you will need them and they are pricey, but having one on hand when the need comes up is more than worth a couple of hundred bucks a year to me. Insurance will often cover them, so then the cost is just your co-pay.
I have really good insurance covering my business, but if it had to pay out due to the death of someone because I was unwilling to buy epipens, then the rates would go so high that I could no longer afford it and that would be the end of my business. Even worse if I did not have a business and my personal assets were at stake. in the grand scheme of things they are cheap protection.


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## twintrades (Jul 17, 2011)

That exactly how i feel. Our insurance covered the cost. With a tiny copay it would be just down right stupid not to have one. Most docs around here will give you a free prescription for one. All i did was tell the nurse over the phone and she said " it will be waiting here."

Also some of our ems transportation does not have pens i asked when i started. Could you live with your self if something happened to your kid/wife/friend. And you could have done something about it ? 
If you dont have insurance then im sure a friend or relative does that could just call and pick it up. But if you dont want to then fine its up to you. Heck if i had my bees out in the woods and not around othres i might not have had one either.


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## rocket08 (Jun 15, 2011)

I went to my doctor to get an epipen "just in case" when I started beekeeping and here's what I found out....I told him that once a long time ago I had an allergic reaction to a bee sting and wanted to be on the safe side in case it happened again. He told me that there is a BIG difference between an allergic reaction and a-shock and if a person was to recieve an epi injection while experiencing an allergic reaction it may be lethal . I personnally wouldn't be too quick to administer ANY kind of injection to anybody that may be lethal unless I was a doctor....that's a HUGE liability. He told me that I would better off getting some Benedryl and keep a cell phone handy in case someone may be experiencing a-shock you could call for help. Although the pharmacist told me that Childrens Benedryl ( and double the dosage) would be a better choice as it would work faster.


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## aschueler (Oct 26, 2011)

Respectfully, rocket08, I disagree with a lot of the above.

There is nothing faster to reverse an allergic reaction than epinephrine. Benadryl works, but not on anaphylaxis. If someone is experiencing a true anaphylactic reaction, epinephrine is all there is. If you aren't sure, they aren't anaphylactic. It's not subtle. That part I agree with. But benadryl is not going to help someone with anaphylaxis.

Last, there is NO LIABILITY to emergency/"good samaritan" life saving care. If you give someone life saving or potentially life-saving first aid, every state has "good samaritan" laws that protect you from liability, even if it doesn't work out.


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## aschueler (Oct 26, 2011)

You know, the more I think about it...maybe I wouldn't hesitate to recommend epipen/epipen jr's to most beekeepers. The risk of epinephrine is there, but you were on a cell phone with EMS and someone quits breathing in front of you, they can at least say "yes it's time to use the pen" if someone is hesitant or untrained. What a lot of people don't realize is that repiratory failure from anaphylactic shock can sometimes involve such severe mouth and tongue swelling that you cannot place a breathing tube, and then you have to do an emergency tracheostomy. This isn't something that's good in your back yard.


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## rocket08 (Jun 15, 2011)

Do what you think is right ....but you need to read the definition of " Good Sumaritan " laws before citing them on here to alot of uneducated "doctors" . There are definitions that allow for "life saving " practices and I'm not sure that administering a perscription drug perscribed in your name to another person will constitute acting in good faith and covered under " Good Sumaritan " laws . Be very careful when giving legal advise unless you can back it in a court of law answering to a "negligence " lawsuit. Myself, I'm going to continue being a beekeeper that follows the advise of a professional medical practitioner and leave the "doctoring" to them. Just my opinion....


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## aschueler (Oct 26, 2011)

This is an interesting/stimulating conversation. I hope I don't upset anyone. Thanks for your concern with regard to my own medicolegal liability. I will actually use the points here to discuss further with some allergists, emergency physicians etc in the area and see what they think. Of course I have read the laws. I am only new to beekeeping.

I did find this as a (possibly) related issue if people don't mind it being a bit tangential. 

http://blogs.ajc.com/momania/2012/01/10/should-schools-stock-epipens-can-administrators-get-to-them-fast-enough/


Anyway, back to work...


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## Ranger Cody (Jan 21, 2012)

I really appreciate the discussion on here about the issue. It sounds as if it's (as with most beekeeping issues) beekeeper discretion. One of the reasons I asked was because I'm not new to the Epi Pen controversy. I work for the US Forest Service on a heavily utilized recreation district. There has been a great controversy between ground employees at some of our recreation areas and management because many believe there is a need for us to have Epi Pens in the event that someone has an anaphylactic reaction. Management says no, because they too are concerned with the liability issue. It's just an interesting discussion all the way around. My primary concern is for my niece and nephew who have never been stung.


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## twintrades (Jul 17, 2011)

I guess you have to just decide for your self. Ill always have one. If i use it or not is up to me. But if they cant breath or im positive its A-shock You bet im stabbing your ass ! inch:

There mainly for me and my family. The neighborhood knows where to get a pen if they need it. We dont lock our doors here. :shhhh:


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

The risk of adverse reaction from Epi-Pen injection is relatively low. Of nearly 16,000 accidental Epi-Pen injections reported to poison control centers, about 8% obtained medical treatment (mostly due to injection into a bad location such as a finger). 0.2% reported "severe effects." There was no mention of any fatalities. There have been two reports of direct injection into fingers ultimately requiring amputation due to vasoconstriction, though such effects are very rare even with accidental finger injections.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20159254

The risk of death from untreated anaphylaxis is quite high, in the sense that 40-50 people die from sting reactions in the US each year. Roughly half of these people had no previous history of reaction, and so likely had no Epi-Pen on hand. Legal issues aside, I would not hesitate to use my pen on someone who was clearly experiencing a reaction.

Doctors disagree as to whether Epi-Pens should be prescribed to patients with no history of anaphylaxis, and we are seeing that debate right here. I assume the worry is that people will perform too many unnecessary injections and that the cost will outweigh the benefit. Personally I think an Epi-Pen is a good addition to any beekeeper's toolkit provided the following guidelines are followed:
1. Only inject if a severe reaction (full-body itching, difficulty breathing, etc.) occurs or if an allergic person is stung.
2. Visit the ER immediately after injection.

Bee and wasp stings kill about as many people as lightning each year. The risk is small. Beekeeping without an epi-pen is like standing outside during a thunderstorm. 99.9% of the time you will be OK, but statistically speaking your life is a little bit more dangerous.

Mark


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

I'm not having an EPI pen on hand. First you have to have a prescription in your name, and second you can get into some real trouble if you apply it to another person and things go wrong. 
Then there are people that react wrong to the epinephrine. I know you say we all have it naturally in our bodies. Still some bodies overreact to it and can possibly die. I'm one of them and a dentist has send me to the emergency room in a ambulance. It is mixed in with Novocaine, because it keeps you numb longer and reduces bleeding. My doctor forgot that I can not take epinephrine and I started to react the moment he injected only 1 drop of the stuff. I had to be put onto a respirator, and was injected with all kind of stuff at the hospital. I tell you I had the worst migraine you can think of for a week! 
Keep the pen, if you inject someone and make sure the emergency team knows that it was administered. Ambulances are stocked with adrenalin injections and usually do not have epinephrine on board, because the adrenalin is stronger. No the real risk comes with they inject the adrenalin on top of the epinephrine. That sends the victim into cardiac arrest. 
Now looking at all those risk factors, you have to wonder if you should have an administer this drug. 
Have a liquid antihistamine on hand and double the dose when you notice a problem. Call 911 immediately. Give the victim ice cubes to suck on. The slows down the reaction in the throat and buys time while you are waiting for the ambulance. 
A piece of advise if it comes to getting tested for bee allergies. Very often they test for a combo, which includes wasps etc. You may have a positive reaction, and it may not be the bee venom. As the doctor to test for specific stinging insect tests. Also the test once checks for a reaction of up to 5 stings, anything above is questionable. So you may not react to the test, but you may do when you get stung 10 times. On the other hand if you do react with a small dose, then you do need to take actions in either immunology treatment option, or in carrying a pen on yourself. 
The risk factors of being allergic are very low, but real when it happens. And yes, you have to distinguish between a bad sting reaction and shock.


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## rocket08 (Jun 15, 2011)

Thank you very much Katharina ! That was very good information for "beekeepers" to consider in regards to the use of EPI pens. Also, there are very different laws concerning medications being carried in school back packs in different states. Here in Texas a student could get into very serious trouble carrying any medicacations in their backpacks for any reason. I'm not a doctor but am certified in CPR and First Aid and one point the instructors make in every class that I have taken is that the Good Sumaritan laws only apply to people that make an effort to save lives using only the techniques that they have been trained for. In other words being a good sumaritan does not allow for me to perform an emergency tracheostomy in my front yard. Having tests done to find out if a problem with bee stings exists sounds like a good idea also. And by the way, I'm not offended at all by other responses here....getting the most input in regards a question is the best way to make the best and most educated decision about how to handle a situation ...thanks for all the responses on this thread.


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## LITTLE JOHN (May 16, 2010)

My doctor would not prescribe an epi pen for me. He told me that since I had no allergic reaction to bee stings that I did not need one. He did prescribe me a bottle of epinephrine, 100 cc. I told him that I did not need that since I keep a current bottle of that in my refeigator for when the cattle reach across the fence and eat johnson grass when it is stressed. It poisions tem and the epinephrine keeps them from dieing if given fast enough. He told me that that is all I need just in case I get stung many times 200 or over, and only take 1cc at a time, get to a hospital, and if I cannot take another 1cc 30 minutes later if I think I need it, but only if I really think I need it. 2cc is all I give to a 600 lb. calf.
little john


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

Just a little not about the pens. One woman in our clubs, who is allergic to bees and carries a pen, said that everyone should have one. She was told there is no harm in giving it, because we all have epinephrine naturally in our body. She tried to get a vote on making a club purchase. I said no way, besides you need a prescription for it. I had to tell my story and warn the others about possible problems with that idea. Good thing that I was there, because most members were not away of complications or consequences in applying it to another person. Try at least to get the victims oral consent prior to administering it. Having a witness is also good. Oh and I forgot don't inject people with heart rhythm problems. They can have a cardiac arrest. That one is well documented and a very real risk.


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## Roadstar (Nov 1, 2010)

With all due respect to everyone that has responded to this thread, I would (and do) place my trust in the opinion of a professional when it comes to most things medical related. My wife and I have both been stung numerous times, with no adverse reaction other than the normal reaction. Our Doctor, a well respected internal medicine specialist, suggested we have an Epi pen on hand, just as a common sense precaution. He wrote the orders, and we picked up a 2 pack of Epi Junior pens. My wife has an educated nursing background, and she is qualified to know the difference between a beyond "normal" reaction, and a life and death A-Shock situation. If you have a serious reaction, and you don't have a solution, you can't use it.

When seconds count..........medical help is often minutes away. You do the math. 

Consult a medical professional and then decide the best preventation to use to avoid a preventable, tragic situation. Or not......your call.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

> Ambulances are stocked with adrenalin injections and usually do not have epinephrine on board, because the adrenalin is stronger. No the real risk comes with they inject the adrenalin on top of the epinephrine. That sends the victim into cardiac arrest.


Adrenaline and epinephrine are two words for the same thing. Multiple injections can lead to overdose.

Katharina, do you know for sure that it is the epinephrine you reacted to rather than the novocaine itself or a preservative? Dentists occasionally accidentally inject novocaine into a vein, which can cause reactions like the one you describe. How did the doctors establish that the epinephrine was the cause?

Mark


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## MrHappy (Feb 10, 2012)

I have Kaiser out here and I talked to my doc that I'm getting into beekeeping and would like to get an Epi-pen just in case. Doc said sure, you never know if you or someone around will be stung. It cost me $15 since it was covered. I keep it in a box outside away from the hives so I can run to it and grab it without having bees follow me inside the house. If a doc says no, and someone around dies, then they might be liable, so most will just let you have it for safety.


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## DLMKA (Feb 7, 2012)

I'm a new beekeeper and have 4 kids all under the age of 8. Every one of them is excited about the bees coming in April and they have all told me they want to come help. I'm going to make sure they have the best protective gear I can get to prevent stings but we've been wondering about whether to get epi-pens as a precautionary measure. Everything that I've read says you'll KNOW when someone is having an anaphalactic episode and it's time to use the pen. I'd feel a whole lot better knowing I had that pen handy and could keep someone from suffering or worse in the time it takes for an ambulance to show up.


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## MrHappy (Feb 10, 2012)

Another thing to think about is that if you happen to be in your backyard without your suit on, where most of us are keeping our bees, and a bee happens to fly into your mouth. There is a chance that she will sting you in your throat and that could make it swell. It might not be an anaphylactic episode, but it might close your airway and restrict your breathing. In this case I'd use it also.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

> I'm a new beekeeper and have 4 kids all under the age of 8.


The regular Epi-Pen is designed for adults and children over 66 lbs. The Epi-Pen Jr. delivers half as much epinephrine and is designed for children from 33 to 66 lbs. There is no Epi-Pen designed for young children under 33 lbs.


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## MrHappy (Feb 10, 2012)

Luterra said:


> Epi-pens alleviate allergic reactions but are by no means a cure-all for stings. Injecting an epi-pen into a non-allergic person will have no effect except to speed up their heart for a few minutes. If your airway is restricted because a bee stung inside your throat, an epi-pen will do you NO GOOD and could make things worse.


This is not true. The bee sting and swelling IS an allergic response. Any swelling is an allergic response. It's the release of histamine in the body that reacts in the site of the sting. This is why we take Benadryl, an anti-histamine, to fight the symptoms. An EpiPin will speed up the heart and clear out the histamine so the reaction will be less severe. For those that would like to confirm, please ask an Allergy, Asthma and Immunology doctor like I did when I got tested to see what my reaction levels are and who gave me the pen.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

It is not that hard to get licensed to administer epinephrine Auto-injection. I am licensed in Florida as are many Master Beekeepers and participants in the Florida Bee College Program. The course is offered every March with admission. I also have the emergency medical training and testing, plus we have two or three Paramedics from this county at the bee workshops.


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## Risky Beesness (Dec 29, 2010)

I was on a live-aboard dive boat off the Big Island when one of my fellow divers got stung by a sea wasp (jellyfish). He went into A-shock within a couple minutes. He was convulsing and siezing like an epileptic event. The boat's Eppipen was expired or bad, so he had to be transported by zodiac, in the dark, through the surf, to meet the helo onshore. Pretty scary ordeal.

My doc gave me a prescription when I told him that I would be keeping bees. I have had pollen allergies all of my life, but have never reacted to any kind of sting. My thoughts, which apply to a lot of things in my life, "it's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it".


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## DLMKA (Feb 7, 2012)

Luterra said:


> The regular Epi-Pen is designed for adults and children over 66 lbs. The Epi-Pen Jr. delivers half as much epinephrine and is designed for children from 33 to 66 lbs. There is no Epi-Pen designed for young children under 33 lbs.


Youngest is 36 lbs, we're good.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

There is a difference between a local reaction and an allergic reaction.

Local reaction/swelling, even great local swelling, is a sign of a healthy immune system. Circulation and heat is increased at the sting site bringing oxygen, chemicals and fluids to the site to deal with and flush away the venom.

A-shock due to allergic reaction results in a person's body starting to shut down with lower heart rate, lower blood pressure, problems breathing, etc. and possibly blocked airway. Adrenalin delivered via an epi pen stimulates the body to counteract the shock. It basically provides time to seek immediate emergency care. Stings to the throat/neck/mouth area can be life threatening just because of airway swelling whether allergic or not.

An epi pen (adrenalin) is to be used appropriately in shock situations. Benedryll is not the same as epinephrine and can be given immediately (liquid) to help deal with either local reaction or A-shock. Benedryll is an anti-histamine.

Have a plan with your doctor's help and be prepared ahead of time. Let others around you know the plan. If the epi pen is used, get to the ER. It's affects are temporary and that person will need doctor care.

Another thing..... while a healthy respect should be given to bee venom, it really shouldn't be feared. It does have medicinal value and there apparently has been some research in using venom to treat cancer, etc.


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## jadell (Jun 19, 2011)

aschueler said:


> ...and not every EMS vehicle etc has epi.


Actually, every EMS vehicle does carry it. It's one of the first basic skills learned by every EMS worker in the country. Look it up Doc, it's a basic and higher skill. Not picking a fight, just trying to educate. If you have EMT basics in your area, it's there.


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## jadell (Jun 19, 2011)

MrHappy said:


> This is not true. The bee sting and swelling IS an allergic response. Any swelling is an allergic response. It's the release of histamine in the body that reacts in the site of the sting. This is why we take Benadryl, an anti-histamine, to fight the symptoms. An EpiPin will speed up the heart and clear out the histamine so the reaction will be less severe. For those that would like to confirm, please ask an Allergy, Asthma and Immunology doctor like I did when I got tested to see what my reaction levels are and who gave me the pen.


You should stay out of the conversation until you can tell the difference between a-shock and a local reaction. You should only administer an epipen if you are trained to do so. If you give it to someone else, you should be an EMT basic or higher, or be on the phone with 911 dispatchers.The Samaritan laws allow you to do things you are trained for. You're rolling the dice with anything else. My mother can't walk up to someone and administer it, and neither should you. God bless all the medics and doctors reading this thread and having heart attacks!


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## rocket08 (Jun 15, 2011)

Thank you very much jadell !! The points you made were the same as I was trying to convey much earlier in this thread. EPI pens are a very good thing to have IF you're trained AND certified to do so. And a lot of people here think that going to their doctor and getting a perscription for an EPI pen in their own name qualifies them to administer the shot to just anyone will be protected under "Good Sumaritan" laws in case something terrible happens is definetly not true ! There was a doctor that responded here earlier that would be covered under the good faith law as he would be operating at his level of training but may have given others the impression that they could do so too and be covered under good faith laws. Recieving a perscription from your doctor to administer an EPI pen on yourself is one thing but playing doctor on someone else is dangerous and puts yourself at extreme liability if things go wrong. If there is training you could get and become certified to use EPI pens , that may be a good idea. Life saving is good...as long as lifes are saved .


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## DLMKA (Feb 7, 2012)

My fiance took a CPR certification class from the Red Cross and part of the day long course was on administering an epi-pen. Does that certify you to use it on others? The local Boy Scout Council has CPR certification for free for parents and adult leaders during the spring camporee.


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

Luterra said:


> Adrenaline and epinephrine are two words for the same thing. Multiple injections can lead to overdose.
> 
> Katharina, do you know for sure that it is the epinephrine you reacted to rather than the novocaine itself or a preservative? Dentists occasionally accidentally inject novocaine into a vein, which can cause reactions like the one you describe. How did the doctors establish that the epinephrine was the cause?
> 
> Mark


I know it is the epinephrine, because it was later confirmed in the hospital. I was up for stomach surgery and the surgeon wanted to be sure about this issue. I think 4% of the population is sensitive to it, and some are very sensitive. I'm just the later one. 
The dentist didn't even use it all the way back for total numbness. He used it on the side of the tooth, where they like to use the shot with the epi in it. That was not the first time a dentist has gotten me with the epi, happened 20 years ago with another dentist too. I'm fine with normal novocaine, but need lots of it. A filling can mean up to 3 injections for me. I seem to absorb it fast without any issues. Last time the dentist tried a new combination that has a drug in it related to epi (forgot the name), it worked fine and I was able to get a filling done with only two shots. He tried it carefully and I did not get the reaction. That is good news for me. Less shots!


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

jadell said:


> Actually, every EMS vehicle does carry it. It's one of the first basic skills learned by every EMS worker in the country. Look it up Doc, it's a basic and higher skill. Not picking a fight, just trying to educate. If you have EMT basics in your area, it's there.


I've talked to a local EMT and he told me that they do not carry Epinephrine. He said they have Adrenaline, which is more potent. He also said that they need to know if and EPI pen has been used so they will not administer or very controlled administer Adrenaline. He said the combo can lead to cardiac arrest. So I did not make this up, I did research my info. I do agree everyone needs to make his or her own decision when it comes to having a pen around.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

Administering an epi-pen is not difficult, like CPR. If you know how to use one on yourself, you know how to use it on someone else. The key is knowing WHEN to use it. 

If someone has a systemic reaction to a sting get to the ER as fast as possible, but keep that pen handy. If the reaction progresses beyond hives and itchiness to difficulty breathing, etc. before you get there, by all means USE IT. I know we live in a litigious society, but that should not prevent us from administering life-saving medicine to someone in need.

Just my perspective. I understand the argument that prescription medication should not be shared, but in this case there is ONE prescription given universally for anaphylaxis, and all Epi-Pens are identical with the exception of adult/child doses. So if I am dying from a sting, I don't need MY epi-pen; I need the CLOSEST epi-pen.

Mark


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## MrHappy (Feb 10, 2012)

jadell said:


> You should stay out of the conversation until you can tell the difference between a-shock and a local reaction. You should only administer an epipen if you are trained to do so. If you give it to someone else, you should be an EMT basic or higher, or be on the phone with 911 dispatchers.


I was a Paramedic for 5 years and have used the pen on a hand full of people. I do know what I'm doing and have been trained to use it. I left that a few years ago when I got shot in the leg. 

I'm not telling someone to take it out and stab it in the next person to walk by! I'm saying that if you on your family swallows a bee and all of a sudden can't breath, that an Epi-pen might save them. It is adrenalin and will cause a fight or flight response. It will dilate not only your eyes, but your veins and throat to allow more flow to run away. It is a 10-15 min solution, but sometimes it will bide you time till real help gets there. The biggest problem with the EpiPen is that it dilates your veins and will drop your blood pressure sometimes so much that you will die from it.

We are just names here, no one know what someone has done in the past. If you want to get real advice, like I've said at the bottom of all my comments, ask the doctor that you get the pen from. Ask them "In what cases should I use this?"


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## twintrades (Jul 17, 2011)

Good advice mr happy !


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

I think we all have shared valuable information here. By all means do not take one answer as the right one. It is just like beekeeping so many solutions and answers. Best is to print these pages out and take it to your fire department and talk to an EMT, then you do the same with your regular doctor, followed by an allergist. That way you have covered all your ends, and you can go home and say you've made an informed decision that will make you feel right about it.


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## Dennyjo (Feb 15, 2012)

You don't need an epi pen unless you stop breathing when you get stung. Otherwise they are completely unnecessary. Doctors don't hand them out. You have to have a proven allergy to bee stings. People that are truly allergic will carry their own epi pens. Don't feed into the paranoia. I am a beekeeper on a mission to educate the public to the fallacy of 'EVERYONE IS ALLERGIC'. This is not true and it is stupid that so many people believe it.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

Dennyjo said:


> You don't need an epi pen unless you stop breathing when you get stung. Otherwise they are completely unnecessary. Doctors don't hand them out. You have to have a proven allergy to bee stings. People that are truly allergic will carry their own epi pens. Don't feed into the paranoia. I am a beekeeper on a mission to educate the public to the fallacy of 'EVERYONE IS ALLERGIC'. This is not true and it is stupid that so many people believe it.


By no means is everyone allergic. But anyone can become allergic at any time, and allergy development is sufficiently common in new beekeepers that I believe people should make an informed decision rather than simply being told not to worry.

Half of all deaths from sting allergies occur in people who did not know they were allergic, i.e. who had no allergic response to a sting until the one that killed them.

I don't think there is a clear answer as to whether the risk is high enough to warrant carrying an epi-pen as a non-allergic beekeeper, but I do believe it is high enough that keeping a pen around is not paranoid behavior. I know of at least four beeks in my local area, myself included, who developed an allergy while beekeeping.


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## Island Apiaries (Aug 9, 2010)

Trouble breathing is not the only life threatening effect of an allergic reaction. Some, albeit a small number, of people have a cardiac reaction. A friend of mine here in WA State suffered this type of reaction a few months ago. The ONLY thing that save him was the epi-pen that was on site. The paramedics did not have one and said that with the type of reaction he showed, it would have been too late by the time they had gotten there with one.
A proven allergy is not required to get one, just the increased likelihood that one may be needed. All it took for me was to ask my doctor and explain that I was a small scale beekeeper who gets stung more often than the average person.
I have no allergy and spend a lot of time educating people that swelling around a sting does not indicate an allergy. I am of the firm belief that it is better to have one and not need it than the other way around. I do not feel this is paranoia, I feel that it is just good planning.


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