# First queen cells using a Nicot Cage (pics)



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

My first attempt at rearing a few queens with the Nicot System did not yield me a great number of queen cells due to most all of the cups being plugged with nectar, but I did get two beautiful queen cells out of the attempt, as you can see in the attached picture.

One cell was capped yesterday, the second was capped today. A week from now I'll have them in mating nucs and hopefully see a couple of georgeous queen emerge in the days to follow...

I've bred about 10 emergency queens up to now, but I have to say that the queen cells I've achieved with the Nicot system are at least 2 times as big as any of the emergency cells I've seen (and hopefully the queens will be equally impressive )

Thanks to all who helped me with the advice and responses to my newbie questions to get this far...

-fafrd


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Cant see the pictures yet they are awaiting approval. If you put them on photo bucket we can see them immediately.



fafrd said:


> Attachments Pending Approval
> 
> -fafrd


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## Khader (May 19, 2010)

its very good


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Just an FYI, We are not going to allow attachments that are simply images, in PDF format. Attachments are reserved for document files that _may include some_ imagery. There are plenty of free image hosting sites you can use for images.


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

fafrd, ...good for you! 

Even though you ended up with just two cells, it was a success and those two were most likely very well fed.....hopefully to become nice, robust, healthy queens. Looking forward to seeing your photos.

Photobucket is a pretty good picture hosting site...

http://photobucket.com/


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Barry said:


> Just an FYI, We are not going to allow attachments that are simply images, in PDF format. Attachments are reserved for document files that _may include some_ imagery. There are plenty of free image hosting sites you can use for images.


Barry,

my apologies - I believe it's my second attempt at trying to get an image associated with a post and I did not see the 'groound rules' you are referring to above spelled out anywhere.

I will follow the link to photobucket and try to figure out how to make it work. If there is already a sticky post somewhere on beesource providing some guidance on how to get images associated with a post, then my apologies for not having found it already, but if thre is no such 'how to' sticky post outlining the ground rules and recommended process for getting images associated with a post, it would probably be a useful addition to help newbies like me who do not have any past experience with the photo/image hosting sites and how to link them to posts on beesource.

-fafrd


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Try this for image posting info.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236867


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

EastSideBuzz said:


> Try this for image posting info.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236867


Very helpful EastSideBuzz - thank you.

I will try to repost with my picture following these instructions this evening...

-fafrd


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

fafrd said:


> I did not see the 'groound rules' you are referring to above spelled out anywhere.


Actually I haven't spelled out ground rules for attachments as we've had so few of them. I have noticed a trend though, that it's being used as a way of posting pictures, so I decided to say something. Not picking on you.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

fafrd said:


> I will try to repost with my picture following these instructions this evening...
> 
> -fafrd


Here's another try at posting a picture of my first two queen cells raised using the Nicot System. Only two cells but I am very happy with how they look (and how they compare to the emergency queen cells I have been raising up to now):










-fafrd

P.S. Thanks to Barry and EasSideBuzz for helping me finally plung in and master this image posting technology!


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## habutti (Apr 20, 2008)

fafrd, glad to see the fruit of your labor, I am sure now that you went through the steps and saw the results you will soon become a master queen breeder 
Congratulations!!


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

So I went out and looked at the lousy video that bee works had. http://www.beeworks.com/view_DVD/nicotsystem.html

Is there another complete video out there on how to do it.? It is raining like crazy up here for weeks and we get a clear day every now and then. I need queens and need to do some splits so I was thinking that this type of a system might be easier to do in bad weather. 

What is the difference between the Jenner system? Also who has the best price on the one you recommend.?


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## dtompsett (Feb 2, 2010)

EastSideBuzz said:


> So I went out and looked at the lousy video that bee works had. http://www.beeworks.com/view_DVD/nicotsystem.html


Funny; I read a lot of people recommending the beeworks DVD. Mine is in the mail right now! I got the full dvd, not just the Nicot system. 



EastSideBuzz said:


> Is there another complete video out there on how to do it.?


I looked... didn't find anything that jumped out on how to use the Nicot system.



EastSideBuzz said:


> It is raining like crazy up here for weeks and we get a clear day every now and then. I need queens and need to do some splits so I was thinking that this type of a system might be easier to do in bad weather.


If you aren't too concerned, then just doing splits and letting them raise their own queens works... but it puts the splits 4 weeks behind your other hives. I wanted to start raising queens for the fact that I can make up some queen cells, use a nuc to raise them... and then when the virgins hatch, do a bunch of small splits, giving each split a virgin queen. Couple of days for her to get mated and start laying; you will know within days if she's going to work out, or if the nuc is going to end up queenless. Huge advantage over waiting ~4 weeks!



EastSideBuzz said:


> What is the difference between the Jenner system? Also who has the best price on the one you recommend.?


Minor differences in how they are constructed, and the parts that they use. I believe the nicot is less expensive. And I've read that the guy who owns Jenter was retiring, but that he has found a buyer for the rights to the tooling to continue producing components. 

Michael Bush has some pics of the Jenter system on his website: http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm

Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenter_kit

Using a jenter kit: http://www.cornwallhoney.co.uk/beepedia/jenter1.htm

This guy compares the two kits:
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/cellplugbox.html


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

EastSideBuzz said:


> It is raining like crazy up here for weeks and we get a clear day every now and then. I need queens and need to do some splits so I was thinking that this type of a system might be easier to do in bad weather.


I have never tried grafting but here is how I believe they compare in a couple ways:

SCHEDULE: With the Nicot/Jenter system, there is less flexibility on the schedule for grafing than using a grafting tool. The queen has laid eggs on the day you imprisoned her in the cage and those eggs must br grafted no more than 5 days later. Period. With standard grafting there are always fresh eggs being laid and fresh larvae hatching, so if it raining on the planned grafting day but the next day will be sunny, it is easy to wait another day (or two, or three...).

GRAFTING: I had to graft with the Nicot System in the rain (with a large umbrella on a stand). It was possible and I believe with standard grafting it would have been much more difficult if not impossible (unless you happen to have a grafting hut nearby ). With the umbrella on a stand over the hive, I opened the hive, removed the frame with the Nicot Cage, opened the back cover off of the cage, and brushed the bees hanging on the frame back into the hive. For grafting, I could see the few cells that were not full of nectar and transferred all 6 of them to the top bar (in the end, only two had larvae). When I had finished grafting the top bor I opend the starter cell I had prepared and inserted the graft. The Nicot Cage was then put back in the donor hive and the hive was closed up. 

The act of Grafting with the Nicot/Jenter system involves much less precision than standard grafting and is much faster (which is why I wanted to give it a try) but it is muchless flexible in terms of schedule.




EastSideBuzz said:


> What is the difference between the Jenner system?


I think the Jenter system is now out of production (though recently I heard that it may be back). The two systems are very similar from what I hav read and about the only real difference could find is that the Nicot system ha an extra piece on the top bar. Both systems have cups that go in the cage and are transferred to the top bar. Both systems have cup holders that hold the cups and are attached to the top bar. In the case of the Jenter system, I believe that the cell cup holder is nailed to the top bar, while in the Nicot System there is ann additional piece called the 'Cell Fixture' which is nailed to the top bar and holds the cell-cup holder through friction (press-on). You can see the Brown Cell Fixture and the Yellow Cell Cup Holders of the Nicot System in my picture.

I originallythought this was an extra and unnecessary piece, but now that i hae used it, I think it is a small plus. You can easily move Cell Cups after grafing with the Nicot System by pulling off and moving the Yellow Cell Cup Holders from the Brown Cell Fixtures. In this way you do not need to touch the Cell Cup itself or the wax queen cell that the bees have started to build onto both the Cell Cup and the Yellow Cell Cup Holder. With the Jenter System I think it would b very difficult to move Queen Cells once they have been started and you would probably damage them in the process.

I actually ended up using this feature because the two cells that started were on the outsides of the 6 that I had grafted. After 24 hours, when I moved the graft from the starter cell to the queenright cell finisher, I saw that there were only two cells, one on each outside edge, and I thought it would be better to move the two cells next to each other and to the center of the bar. Piece of cake with Nicot and not sure it would have been possibe with Jenter. For a full successful graft where all cells are full, this capability would not be needed, but being able to rearrange the sequence of cells after they have been started is a small plus for the Nicot set-up in my book.




EastSideBuzz said:


> Also who has the best price on the one you recommend.?


Mann-Lake has a Nicot kit with enough cell fixtures and cup holders to graft 10 cells. It is less expensive than most of the other kits I have seen because most Nicot Kits seem to come with the parts to graft 20 cells. The Mann-Lake 10-cell kit is $70 and another 10 Brown Fixtures and Yellow Cupholders can be added for total of $12, so it comes out to about the same tat most of he bee equipmet outfits are chargng for a 20-cell set up but gives you the opportunity to start with only 10 cells at lower cost.

-fafrd


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

The Jenter cell bars are metal with drilled holes that the yellow bases rest in. If you wanted to move one, you would just take it out of one hole and put it in another.

I don't think that there is a significant difference between the systems. The cell cups snap into the cell wall which snaps into the yellow base which hangs in the cell holder bar.

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt230/bdtowle/img_0242.jpg


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

beedeetee said:


> The Jenter cell bars are metal with drilled holes that the yellow bases rest in. If you wanted to move one, you would just take it out of one hole and put it in another.
> 
> I don't think that there is a significant difference between the systems. The cell cups snap into the cell wall which snaps into the yellow base which hangs in the cell holder bar.
> 
> http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt230/bdtowle/img_0242.jpg


Thanks for the pic, beedeetee - now that I actually see how the cell bars for the Jenter System are designed, I agree that there are no significant differences between the systems.

-fafrd


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

fafrd said:


> Thanks for the pic, beedeetee - now that I actually see how the cell bars for the Jenter System are designed, I agree that there are no significant differences between the systems.
> 
> -fafrd


So in the picture from mann lake it does not show the bars for the frame. Is that in the kit.?
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ProductDetail.asp?idProduct=1492

Now I think you have to put the queen in the system? I cant find the queen usually when I am searching for her so this is going to be harder then it looks.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

EastSideBuzz said:


> So in the picture from mann lake it does not show the bars for the frame. Is that in the kit.?
> http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ProductDetail.asp?idProduct=1492


The Mann-Lake kit does not include the bar. The brown fixtures nail onto the bottom of the top bar or you can nail them to a bottom bar and affix it between the side bars.



EastSideBuzz said:


> Now I think you have to put the queen in the system? I cant find the queen usually when I am searching for her so this is going to be harder then it looks.


Strongly recommend marking your queen if not already done. That is another fundamental difference between the 'graftless' grafting systems like Nicot and Jenter versus the convential grafting technique - you do need to be able to effectively find, capture, and cage the queen...

-fafrd


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I like the Jenter system for what I need. Downsides do exist. You have to find the queen and physically put her in the cage. You have to open the hive the next day and check for eggs and let her out.

I have found that the queen starts laying double eggs if you leave her in there too long (more than 14-16 hours?). The instructions say to leave her for 12 hours. That is probably about right, but how practical is that? 6:00am to 6:00pm? 9:00am to 9:00pm? I have left her longer and didn't have problems at about 16 hours, but did at 18 hours. This was the same queen. I have left others for less than 18 and didn't find double eggs.

I have heard of others leaving her for days and not having a problem, so maybe my queens just need to lay!!


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Very nice, I'm still raising mine one at a time.


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