# Is it too late for a new TBH to overwinter?



## MistyZ (Jan 13, 2005)

I'm in Michigan with 2 regular hives, but am really interested in making a TBH.

I have an extra five frame nuc (deep) with a queen, and was wondering if it is too late in the year to build a TBH, shake in the nuc, and let it build up for winter. Could it get strong enough in time for the cold?

I could feed, and obviously wouldn't take any honey off of it. 

If not, I can wait until spring, but would love to get a head start.

Thanks!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They might, but you're pushing your luck in August. And if it doesn't build up, what would you combine it with to get through the winter? A split right now would be iffy. A shaken swarm would be more iffy and you have no backup (combining) if they don't build up enough.


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

I don't think I would try it either. Better to wait until spring.


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## MistyZ (Jan 13, 2005)

Thanks for the opinions. I'll just work on getting my nuc stronger and if it makes it through the winter, I'll shake it into the TBH come spring. Should be fun!

Misty


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

if you have extra lang equipment you could transfer the nuke to a deep and fill out the space with five 19 inch top bars. if you don't have the extra deep you could build a deep long hive, transfer the five frames and fill the space with top bars. this way you are able to transfer everything back and forth and still have the fun of building your own equipment.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

I think it's too late for michigan. I do think you should transfer the nuc to a deep at least and get to feeding them, they'll have a better chance of overwintering in a full hive.


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

I think feeding them is the best advise. And feed heavy too. I'd put them in a lang and leave feed on them all winter long. I don't know your weather but I think it is much more harsh then here in PA and nucs can have problems getting through winter here.


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## louis1st (Oct 17, 2004)

How can you feed your bees in a tbh as if i am right, there is no hole in the top part of the hive to put a feeder?

is an entrance feeder ok?


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## oldgreyone (Apr 30, 2005)

A couple of possibilities that I can think of.

1. Make a hole in a topbar that the bees could use to get up to the feeder.

2. Make an internal feeder the shape of your tbh and keep it full.

I use a variation of the first one with a mason jar lid attached to the bar which I screw a full jar of sugar water to with small holes in the lid. The bees have no trouble emptying it, though I place a plastic lid under it to keep the drips controlled.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

I use ziplock bags. Fill them up, put them in, then cut three 3 inch holes with a razor blade.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

my latest technique has been plastic soda bottles. i use a needle held by a pair of pliers to put holes around the bottom of bottles short enough to stand up in the hive and holes along the side if they are to lay down.


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## tom patterson (Apr 28, 2004)

I have used entrance feeders to build up a late small swarm during the drought several summers ago. Worked fine. Ideally I like the bees to build up on their own, but even the strong hives were struggling some that summer.

Tom Patterson, 
Aurora, CO


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Hello all,
IMO keep them in the TBH they have the best chance in as close to a natural environment as they can get. Then the best thing you can do to feed is what Oldgreyone said build an internal feeder and keep it full, I would add two notes to this; 1st it does not have to be the same shape as the hive I use a plastic soda bottle with a hole very low set on a plastic plate as the hole is exposed it fills the plate untill the hole is covered real simple and it works! Use whatever works in your TBH. 2nd pull the feeder before they cluster for the winter and put fondant ALOT in the bottom, don't worry about moisture they will have enough. This will allow them to feed when temps in the hive allow them to break cluster, even if you don't see them flying. I did this last year with one of mine and they made it through a German winter with flying colors. Granted this is just one example but when I first saw them flying I ran out and opened the hive and they were still feeding on the fondant all but a silver dollar size chnk was gone. My 2 cents for what its worth. GOOD LUCK


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## AlpineJean (Apr 3, 2005)

Hi MIKI,
How do you make your fondant?
Thanks,
AJ


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

For feeding of my tbh I have used simply a glass jar and a small plate .Fill the jarr with sugar water and put the plate on it.Then,simply turn the jarr with the plate upsie down and you have a feeder.
Sasha


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

Question for Miki-
Would not the fondant get dirty if you put it below the bars?

Sasha


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The bees can actually filter pollen out of nectar. They can clean up things that are dirty quite well.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

I buy my fondant ready made from a feed store and like Mike said they do a good job of keeping their environment clean. The jar method is great for starting but as you grow you will see a need to deliver a larger quantity of syrup faster. ,on this point I also agree with Mike on open feeding its working great for me.

Shsha, How does the syrup get out seems to me this creats a vacume?


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2005)

Would they build up some and winter better in a 5 frame nuc with no room to expand, or in a TBH or full 10 frame super. I'm far South of Mich., but I'd shake them myself, or put 'em in a bigger box. Then again, I've had a good queen winter in just one Dadant size and come roaring out in the Spring to fill SIX (6 5/8) supers with honey. That's over 200 pounds. The right queen and timely supering up seemed paramount.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

For a large cluster space isn't so much an issue, but for a small cluster it's a world of diffrenece if the size of the area is appropriate to the size of the cluster.


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## Wojtek (May 31, 2005)

Could someone tell me some hints to estimate probability of surviving a winter in TBH.
without inspecting all combs by comb.
I am in Chicago vicinity environment. It is getting cold and temperature is dropping progressively to above 60 during a day. Bees are still flying and bringing some pollen but this will stop when temperature drops below 60 soon.
My hives are V shaped, TB is 22 , about 10 deep.
How many combs should I expect at this time a year to estimate probability of surviving an average winter without internal feeder. (first year)
I know that it depends on a few things, but TBH beekeepers have to have some experience to generalize their opinion, I think. 
My bees are Italian. There are 13 to 16 combs in 3 hives. The last 3 combs are partial and almost empty, and not covered by bees. I did not feed them, but several days ago I gave them syrup ( about 2 quarts) and they drink it like crazy, but I didnt notice any build up of combs. What did they do with it? Probably just has got fat.
I will be glad to hear and appreciate yours opinion.

Also, what is large cluster, small cluster, strong or weak hive? I have a window so I can see how many combs are covered with bees to have some idea of this terminology.

Wojtek


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Wojtek,

I would think the obvious "back of the napkin" calculation you'd make would be figure how many square inches of comb you have
(rough guess at sq. in. of comb/bar) x (number of bars)
then figure out how many langstroth frames that equal
then how does that compare to what people typically overwinter with in your area

(See, they told you you'd need that algeabra stuff)









Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

What I would call a large cluster, on a cold day, would be bigger than a basketball. What I would call a small cluster, on a cold day, would be smaller than a soccer ball. The smaller than a soccer ball cluster might make it. In fact with the ferals that seems to be a typical winter cluster. With the Italians that's a pitiful cluster, but it might survive.

With a typical hive, since there are gaps between the top bars, I can just peek in the top on a cold day and if the bees aren't in that box, keep pulling boxes until I see the cluster. If it spans the whole box it's a strong hive. If it spans six or seven frames it's a medium hive. If it only spans about five frames or less it's a weak hive.

With practice you can judge the cluster better in different temperatures. On warmer days it expands and colder days it contracts. You need, in the long run, to learn to judge, not just the size of the cluster but the density of the cluster to have a better estimate.

But with a Top Bar Hive you have an added problem in judging the size. You'll probably need to start at each end and go until you find some bees and then count the frames between the two ends of the cluster.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Woj

The syrup you fed them went straight into the brood nest. That is good. Keep feeding them. You will be ok i think. They won't build any more comb but rather store the open nectar in existing comb where they can get to it.

Biggest thing IMO is to protect them from the wind. So if you are on the prairie try to find a way to break the wind.

The other thing to do is to try to pick up the hive and estimate how much it weighs. Same as for a lang. I wouldn't worry about a detailed inspection this time of year, they are either going to make it or they aren't. All you can do is feed and break the wind. If you think it weighs 100 pounds plus you will be ok, if less keep feeding.

good luck and keep us posted.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

David?

<All you can do is feed and break the wind.>

Sometimes I feel that way too.

Hawk


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