# Almond Pollination Fees



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Maybe this is an almond grower placing the advertisement. Maybe it's a hobbyist with only 30 hives. 

Jean-Marc


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

The guy is advertising 2000 hives. Most of the almonds have moved further south and the growers in the Sacramento area mostly have long term relationships with the big opertations in the area. Maybe he is just trying to break in to some of these orchards so he won't have to travel so far. I talked to a guy tonight that works the Modesto area and he sais what he heard is that it is staying about the same as last year. He hasn't had any bids yet. Last year they were calling him in May.

I have an inquiry for the Merced area. I think I'll ask $150 because of the travel time and the increased exposure risk to AHB and SHB. I would really rather stay up north, but everything has it's price.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

contract signed at $140.00 for one semi load. 8 fram average with 5 frame min. $127.00 to beekeeper after loading/unloading and scattering. Beekeeper pays for freight to CA.


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## Dennis Arterburn (Jun 22, 2006)

How many hives make up a semi load ??????
What is the minimum amount of hives one could expect to get a contract for ????


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I just turned down this inquiry for a small number of hives because the location is at the edge of the AHB current northern limits and I don't want to take the risk of bringing AHB home.
Someone who already is at risk for AHB might be interested.


I am looking for 80 to 100 boxes for this year and next year 2007, do you have any, if so what is the price per box, please advise

Tim Layhee
5199 East South Bear Creek Drive
Merced, CA 95340
Phone 209-383-2304
Cell 209-602-3777
Fax 209-383-4130
Email: [email protected]


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## TaylorL (May 9, 2005)

I ended up receiving $3.02 /pound across all varieties for my 05' almond crop. 06 crop is currently selling in the $2 range and firming up a bit.(to the grower) Unless we get a absolutely wonderful bloom this year that price should hold. That said, at $3/lb $150/hive can be absorbed. Its asking a lot to go any higher than that with almonds trading at $2.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Dennis:

First you need to figure out the length of the trailer you would use, whether it be 40, 45, 48 or 53 feet. Multiply by 12 to get the inches and divide by 33.5 or 34 (width of pallet).

Say if you had a 48 foot trailer that's
48 x 12 = 576 inches.
Divide that by 34 inches ( width of my pallets)
I'd get 576/34 = 16.94 pallets
Because you loose space when loading, not everything gets loaded exactly at 34 inches I'd end up with only 16 pallets on 1 side. Multiply by 2 and that's 32 pallets per tier.
I get 3 tiers per truck with doubles. I seem to recall with 1 and a half you can get 4 layers high. Find out about height restrictions and weight restrictions first. Anyways in my case I'd get 32 x3 pallets = 96 pallets or 34x 3 pallets =102 pallets if the trucker lets the load overhang a bit. So either 384 or 408 hives on that particular trailer with doubles.

Jean-Marc


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

The formula is correct but we always go four high with doubles but due to weight we can always get 448 on but if not heavy with stores 480 to 512 doubles on a semi are possbile.

32 to row.
14 rows = 448 (40 ft.)
15 rows = 480 (43 ft.) 
16 rows = 512 ( 46 ft.)

Most flatbeds are 45 ft. or 53 ft.

The ones we use are air ride and can weigh the load right at the bee yard. In the old days we had to load and go to a scales to make sure not overloaded and then come back and pull hives if overloaded. 

448 is the norm but we have sent 480 before.

Heading north in the morning Jean-Marc to get a load of "blow bees". Weather to approach 80 f. for three days. Gonna save those girls lives!

Also most professional bee haulers like to leave the first 34 inches of flatbed load without pallets. I will let you hobby beekeepers figure out why as I know my friend Jean-Marc knows why.

Later!


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Bob

what are blow bees worth? I suppose you use them to boost late nucs. We boosted a few this season to help the queen mating nucs. I've got a few 2 way dadant boxes. The lenght is divided in 2 so each side has 10 frames. They can be further divided in two, to have 4 mating nucs from 1 dadant box. I combined all nucs then stacked them 3 high, so 30 frames each side. In early spring I'll be able to break them out with 1 frame of brood each, then dump bulk bees on them. The brood helps the unit stay together when cells are placed.

Did you do the longevity study you had planned on?

One thing with doubles stacked up 4 high. It is a bit intimidating the first times. It's hard to see when you stack 2 on top of 2, so a lot of it is by feel. I've learnt that if it does not feel right it is because it isn't right. I try not to argue with myself anymore cause my gut is usually right on these things.

Jean-Marc


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I just got a couple truck loads of 512 on the road today by mixing in some singles on a drop deck going 2 singles and two doubles up top and 3 doubles and a single down below. Sixteen rows back put them up to 79,000+. With freight costs where they are we are always trying to squeeze a few more on, the days of just loading on 408 has been over for us for the past few years. Now it is first get the hive weights right and check for good cluster size and then max out the trucks. They rarely come out of the almonds heavier than they go in.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

jlyon:

Do you then run some extra brood chambers to California? The way I see things you'll be short a second brood box for half the hives if they are stacked 2 singles an 2 doubles up top, unless you rent the hives as singles. Dead-outs could help make-up some shortage, but not so many for your sake.

Good luck, I know I can always use a dose of it when hauling bees.

Jean-Marc


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

> Also most professional bee haulers like to leave the first 34 inches of flatbed load without pallets. I will let you hobby beekeepers figure out why as I know my friend Jean-Marc knows why.


Bob:

OK, my guess is that you stack empty supers or deeps in front to break the wind and then have them if needed?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

David:

That's a good try, but I do not think that's what Bob had in mind. At least I'm 99.9% sure.

Jean-Marc


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

No actually a good single is quite marketable in California as well. It is just a bit more of a balancing act making sure that they are a full box of bees and have enough feed. They can also be a bit unmanagable size wise if they get a big buildup on the almond bloom. I know some beekeepers get by handling mostly singles. For my part when we are preparing bees here in the fall if we can see that bottom box is mostly empty it just seems to make sense to pull it out so that we aren't shipping so much bulk.


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## Walt McBride (Apr 4, 2004)

The 34" area holds netting?
Walt


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

The 34" is for mother-in-law's rocking chair for the family vacation to Californie?


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## Dennis Arterburn (Jun 22, 2006)

Good information,
I don't have near enough bees to even consider the almond pollination aspect of the bee business.
So, at this time I am just looking for "food for thought". I do live on the fringe area of AHB, so far none have been reported in my county...but the city I live in is divided by two counties...Miller county in Arkansas which has confirmed AHB, and the county that I live in Bowie county in Texas as far as I know has had no confirmed reports of AHB. I do assume they are certainly here so I approach all bees with caution. 

Now with that said I was under the impression that California was heavly infested with AHB.

++ What does a almond grower expect form a hive of bees...strength wise....size wise 1 deep, 2 deeps, etc. etc. ?

I am assuming if you place bees for polinazition, you would need to stay with the bees, to monitor the performance "strenght" and maintenace of the equipment. True ?

How long are the hives in place before return ?

I have more questions the I haven't even thought of yet......SO...any tid bits of information you can throw my way will be appreciated.....ALSO any areas that would be helpful in researching this aspect of beekeeping would be appreciated as well.

So far I have found permission to place bees in out yards ranging from 200 acres to 3 acres so I have room to expand...gonna be a busy winter getting ready, hopefully I will have over 100 hives by the fall of next year.

Thanks Again,
Dennis


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Walt and BDT, I don't hink that's what Bob had in mind. The big hint is the 34 inches. That's a great idea BDT for my mother in law. I hadn't thought of that. I'll make sure the tie downs are kinda loose and hope for a bumpy ride. He he.
Oh and back to the big question, Bob and jlyon spoke (wrote) about the answer.

Jean-Marc


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

mr harrison sezs:
Also most professional bee haulers like to leave the first 34 inches of flatbed load without pallets. I will let you hobby beekeepers figure out why as I know my friend Jean-Marc knows why.

tecumseh speculates:
now I never saw it done that way (years and years ago in a galaxy far, far away) since we always began loading right at the head ache rack, but I would venture a guess. the is a spot so that if individual axle weight don't pass the state scales (gross weight is ok, but the load is trowing extra weight onto one axle) you can reposition a few hives to be legal.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

<Now with that said I was under the impression that California was heavly infested with AHB.>

If you draw a line approximately from San Francisco to Lake Tahoe, most counties south of that line have AHB. There haven't been any found north of that line (yet).

< What does a almond grower expect form a hive of bees...strength wise....size wise 1 deep, 2 deeps, etc. etc. ?>

No absolute standard but a common contract would be 8 deep frames average covered with bees with a minimum of three frames. Obviously if you put in a three frame box, it will take a lot of real strong hives to get the average up. The actual requirement for each contract is subject to negotiation and this is where a broker comes in handy. Some growers will require that you do combines to bring weaker hives up, others will accept weaker boxes at a lower price (usually two hives for the price of one). Other growers don't want a weak hive in their field at all.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Walt McBride

Did you get my PM reply? I sent a reply and it came back to me sierrabees to sierrabees.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

You got me on the 34 inch thing. We always load front to back unless there is a weight issue. Then we adjust were needed. We can usually get 544 story halfs on except going to CA were they have the nothing over 80,000lbs law. They are serious about that, no sense of humor. You can only go 512 and sometimes 480.

So what's the deal with the 34 inches even some of us dumb commercial guys would like to know?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I guess as long as Nick Noyes spoke up I will admit to being dumb on this one as well. I am not sure I have had a driver request it but my guess is that with the spread axles on these trailers they don't have axle weight issues on the back but they still need to get it fairly well balanced so that it dosen't get "tailey". As fate would have it we just loaded a truck this morning in which we should have left the front row off as he was a little heavy on his drivers. The truck wasn't level and we didn't get a good weight reading. So back to the loading yard after scaling to pull the front row off. The driver admitted that his tractor was a bit heavier than most (he was weighing between 34 and 35 empty) and he also had enough chains and chain binders hanging on the back of his truck to stock a hardware store.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Well I suppose it's because of the weight issue. Actually I had a driver request this for a first time last load. My hives averaged 161-162 lbs. So we loaded away and sure enough I had to leave a few behind. The last 34 inches only got 1 layer instead of 3. 16 hives waited till the next load. Not a big deal another truck came the next day. We had an unusually long honey flow. I did not feed for winter. It went from tipping honey on sept 11 with no robbing. All hives were 2 high that day, to cold and wet on sept 13. It stayed cold and Mite-Awat II didn't work so well.
Liquid oxalic acid last week. Sure enough the bees started brooding up again here in the banana belt of Canada.

I guess I'm saying the same thing as jlyon. Bob did specify professional bee haulers, so presumably they've had everything and anything that can go wrong , go wrong.

We'll see what Mr. Bob H. has to say about this. perhaps he's giving me far too much credit. 

Jean-Marc


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## heartbeat (Nov 18, 2004)

well, i'm a hobby beekeeper (200) hives and a professional bee hauler (12+ years) and dont have a clue as to the 34" thing! may be weight issue for some, but my truck/trailer is less than 30k empty.
have nets, will travel!
martin
817-247-4510


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## carbide (Nov 21, 2004)

Back when I was a paid professional tourist(steel hauler), it was imperative that you place the load you were hauling properly on the trailer. When you are hauling a 50,000 lb. coil of steel that is maybe 7 feet in diameter and 10 to 12 feet long you have to position it properly on your trailer to distribute the weight. The two drive axles on the tractor support the majority of the weight from the tractor plus a certain percentage of the weight from the trailer.

Since the states that you drive through have bridge laws that govern how much weight you are allowed on each axle, in addition to the gross vehicle weight, you have to be certain that the weight is distributed correctly. If you have the weight positioned too far forward you end up with too much weight on the drive axles of the tractor or too much weight on the steering axle and could end up with a huge overload fine. 

For this reason the bee hauler may wish to position the hives further back on the trailer in order to get more weight on the back trailer axles and leave some free area in the front of the trailer into which he could shift some of the load if he needs to.

Then again since I've never hauled beehives around on a flatbed I could be all wet with this long drawn out reasoning.


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## heartbeat (Nov 18, 2004)

you too, huh? my dispatcher says he is my travel agent!


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

If you ask the professional bee hauler he will *say* for weight and you can place another row up front if needed. Which is true to a degree.

I have sit in the office of one of the largest bee operations in the world watching a semi being loaded and net placed *on average* every two hours.

I think six semis for Blueberries were loaded the day I was watching.

The first time bee haulers always started at the front of the flatbed and because the hives were all in doubles usually the last couple rows were left off.

Many drivers would sit in the office while being loaded so we talked. I have had a CDL since I was 18 years old ( Kansas a very long time ago) and drove semi for 31 years with a record 2 million miles without an accident.

Each ten year period without an accident is considered a million miles. Notice My record is not 3 million miles.

In the early years I jack knifed a couple rigs on icy roads and took a couple detours through the ditch.

Was kind of like learning to ride a bike!

I have seen many a truck wreck and bee wreck.

The first row of hives are the ones you see in a jack knife and also the hives which come forward in a direct hit wreck. SOOO if you have to leave some off the first to leave off are the first row.

I do not have a problem with hauling a full load but many times space is left. I prefer to start the load leaving the first 34 in. MT. If you look at the picture in my ABJ article. "Loading bees in a missouri Snowstorm" (April of 2003 I think) you will see the first 34 in. are MT..

Walt,
The netting is on the truck. 

Sorry for the late reply. Have been in Nebraska depopulaing around 350 hives and bringing the " blow or shake" bees back to Missouri. I finnished the project about an hour ago. Temps soared to above 80 F.on our return ( bees got hot in the packages) which caused us extra work but the hives were brood free and young winter bees.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Thanks Bob. What is MT?

Where do you get queens this time of year to put with those blow bees?


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

>>>Thanks Bob. What is MT?<<<

I'm not Bob, but MT is empty.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

David,
The queens were all 2006. We did not care about the queens and used the bees to boost established colonies weak from the drought. 

Once hives are broodless you can hardly tell a queen from a worker. The largest patch of brood we found was about the size of a silver dollar.

Finding queens was not an option due to time concerns.

The area we were in is white with snow tonight and bitter cold.

The beekeeper which owned the hives did not want to pay the trucking to Texas. He might if he had a semi load. All in all most looked good but too small clusters for winter in Nebraska. If you could turn back the clock a month, combine and feed they might have survived.

One of the hardest lessons for the full time beekeeper to learn is why waste time on a "dink" ( queenright hive which never seems to build up no matter what you do)

MT is short for the word empty. 

The bees really boosted our weak hives. Most of the bees were young fuzzy winter bees. I wish I had another 350 to depopulate!


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## heartbeat (Nov 18, 2004)

bob, makes sense on the jacknife situation... i have 13 years {1+mil.} accident free so i guess that never crossed my mind. {knock,knock..wheres the wood!} i also x-strap my front and back so if i were to hit somethin hard enough for those to come forward, 34 inches wont even matter. with my mt wt <30k i need all 48' usually. {4x3+13x4 on step deck}
martin


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

kinda off topic but do you guys know of truckers that hual bees to california for almond just say i wanted my bees there but had no truck. any one i can get in touch with? regards Nick


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Swarm-trapper,
SMX out of Iowa has hauled loads for us but none of the drivers has got nets. One driver we have used has got follower boards.

Many flatbed drivers have hauled bees but you need to provide nets. Also a way to get unloaded in California. Getting nets back can be problematic.

I can provide contact for a bee hauler with nets but only if ready to move bees in near future and serious.

In ALL cases you have to arrange unloading in California.

I have never used a broker. We would arrange three semi's and load. Then drive along or usually ahead and then unload on arrival. The drivers all had cell phones. 
We were in a Ford 550 pulling a swinger.

Many times you can hire a beekeeper to unload IF you make arrangements ahead. Arrange wisely has drivers for longhaul companies (SMX) will charge the hell out of you if the person to unload does not show up!

Figure at least $2 a mile trucking in todays market and usually a $75 fuel surcharge each way as fuel is running around 2.50 a gallon.

Or last 3 tanker loads of fructose have had the fuel surcharge. I would expect a fuel surcharge on loads to california & back in 2007.


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## heartbeat (Nov 18, 2004)

swarm-trapper, i do have nets. call me on my cell at 817-247-4510
martin
p.s. this week i'm charging 2.50/mi (includes fuel surcharge)


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

We sent 4 semis out, the total cost for each load was $1.97 per mile and that included an $827 (!!!) fuel surcharge for the 2250 miles. We supplied the nets. We go through a broker so he takes care of the unloading. We went out and put pollen patties and thin syrup on them, just got back.
Anyone headed out that way be ready for a hassle at the border. We went in at Needles with a basically MT truck, had a syrup tank and 4 bee boxes with wooden reducers in them. The inspector went through all 4 of those boxes with flashlights looking for hive beetles. Held us up for probably half an hour. We heard the problems at least at Needles are as bad as they were last year with getting the bees through, especially from the southern states.
Sheri
ps, on topic, we have never had a driver ask to leave the front row MT, but it might not have been a bad idea on one of our loads as we were within 100# of overloading the hitch, too close for comfort.


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## heartbeat (Nov 18, 2004)

Sheri, good to here y'all made it safely home. been through needles twice this year and both times they looked over things very well. (loads from texas). some ca. counties are still not allowing hive beetles in. Az. inspected very well, also!
Those were some really great rates! Rich said y'all had moved them cheaply.
martin


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi Martin, yes, I know we got a great deal. Supplying our own nets does help, I guess. 
As for looking things over pretty well, I guess it is to all our benefits to try to regulate the pests, but when ya already got them in, what is the point of the hassle? I am afraid we will be bringing beetles back here to our holding yard when the bees come back after almonds.
Are you hauling Rich's? I just talked with him today, he called from his cell phone, sitting in the tree stand. Got himself a buck opening day of season here in WI.
Sheri


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## heartbeat (Nov 18, 2004)

yes, i hauled rich's. i'm originally from center,tx. and have my hives down there. unloaded in fresno county last night and havent found a load out; guess im stuck here til monday!


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Owell, there are worse places to be stuck. I would trade WI for Center or even Chowchilla, it's COLD here, got a few inches of the white stuff on the ground too. 
Are you putting your bees in almonds?


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## greenbeekeeping (Feb 13, 2003)

Wow sheri $1.97 per mile that is a good deal. I think I heard $2.40 per mile or maybe a bit more from the guy I work for. That is with our nets. We are loading up 4 semis this next saturday.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi Matt
We talked with quite a few drivers the last week or two of October, with them calling us to see if we needed them. We were already booked so didn't, but one driver from up our way said he'd haul them for $1.40 per if we would gaurantee the return come spring. He drives to CA regularly but has trouble finding loads back to WI, imagine that. 
Seems with the problems some folks had last year of getting rides there are a few new drivers willing to help us out.
Sheri


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Does anyone want to help build a concensus for the pollination fee range this year? Sounds like a lot of you must have contracts by now.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

I've heard as low as $120, high of $160. I think it will settle at $140-$150 per hive, less any wrangling fees.
Sheri


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

One word of warning about freight rates. Having a net and hiring the cheapest flatbed you can find may not always ge a good idea. Make sure if the driver dosen't have experience hauling bees that he thoroughly understands the do's and dont's of hauling them. A lot can go wrong if their are delays or weather extremes.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

>>>Make sure if the driver dosen't have experience hauling bees that he thoroughly understands the do's and dont's of hauling them.<<<
Amen to that! If your driver doesn't have experience with bees, be sure to give him a little lecture on the do's and don'ts. I have even thought of giving the drivers a care package with a veil and printing out a guidline of "what ifs".
Price isn't a determinant, more expensive truck outfits may not know how to haul bees, either.
Sheri


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hauling bees in January to almonds out of the Midwest is something even a new driver will not have trouble with as heat is not an issue.
Snow & ice is! On I70/I80 & I90.
Stop and wait is always best. I saw three foot of snow in wyoming in a single storm on the way to California.
Those big gates on I80 swing shut without warning but if the bees have got plenty of honey you simply sit back and wait. The bees do the same thing they would be doing in the midwest.
In hot weather moving bees can be problems. Cold weather a piece of cake except for snow & ice.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Shaping up to be a shortage of bees in almonds if you believe the Midwest Honey hot line. Reports of large numbers of hives crashing. Last updated Nov. 12 I believe.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Rob, I talked to two rather large pollinators last week. Both reported 40% loss in the past 60 days. They had no explaination other than a virus sweeping through. I was surprised to hear that much loss in October/November.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

(well, i'm a hobby beekeeper (200) hives )

Martin, only someone from Texas could call 200 hives a hobby!  

Bob, we hauled our bees South the Day after Thanksgiving last year, 10F when we left. They had been loaded in 40F temps so were ready to roll. We were concerned about having clusters knocked down and losing hives but didn't loose 1. Am I worring for nothing?

I-70, black ice, Eisenhower tunnel, remember it well!


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Joel:

You are worrying for nothing at those temperatures. Actually those temperature are great. At 10F the bees will not bother you unless exteme rough handling. Very little smoke is required. It's a litle cold for the operator, but the bees manage just fine. Have you tried overwintering any at home this year?

Jean-Marc


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joel,I-70, black ice, Eisenhower Tunnel?
Was that on the way to SC?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Joel, Bob and Jean-Marc are right about the cold temps, cold is great for loading, and the bees travel much better if it's cold. Too warm and they come out and get stuck in the nets anytime the truck stops. We had one driver last year that loaded up, drove home to North Dakota for Thanksgiving day, then continued on. 
The bees were fine cuz it was cold. It would have been a disaster if it had been warmer.

Depending on where one is in the midwest and what part of CA you are going to, it makes sense to enter at Needles. This part of the country CAN be hot in January. 
Drivers should be aware they may be delayed for inspection,and may need to be unloaded, pallets and bed pressure-washed and then reloaded. I can imagine the loss of bees if this is done on a warm sunny day.
Sheri


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

A word to the wise. We go out of our way to aviod needles and not because of the threat of hot weather.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Bob, lol, I am tending to agree with you after our last entrance there, they checked us out pretty closely and we didn't even have bees on. Must be that hot weather makes them ornery. But at least there is no black ice.
Sheri


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Needles is known for its lack of communication with Sacramento. Goes back years.
Famous for letting loads simply sit.
Three days is not unusual.


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## TaylorL (May 9, 2005)

Anyone out there want to cut me a deal on another 250 hives? I have yard space available to store.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

TaylorL,
Sent a private message.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Were at from Fresno and what does it pay?


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

hey guys if we got some hives from florida that we bought as splits should we be scared that they wont get past the CA border? Nick


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Swarm-trapper,
I would worry about SHB if I was entering at Needles. Make sure ahead of time the county you are going to will accept a load with a shb find. Some counties will not.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

Paramount Farms is in a hassel with beekeepers over Clementine over pollination. Causes seedy fruit. Anyway last summer,beekeepers were threatning not to pollinate their almonds. They need 20,000 hives. Mid summer they said they could get all the 8 framers they wanted and were only going to pay 125.00. November they raised that to 135.00 plus 2.00 per frame over 8 frame. Some farmes are willing to pay 120.00 for an Aussi package ( 4 frame). That means an 8 frame should be worth 240.00. At CA convention lots of talk about 8 fr for 150.00 to 165.00 rented and signed contracts. Dont come to CA without a signed contract.A mans word isnt worth much out here, sorry to say. Also more inspection is the topic of growers. Beekeepers have advertised as inspectors and growers are actively looking for them. Be sure you are delivering what you say. If you come up short of your contract and the grower cant find replacement, rember this is the land of lawyers and sunshine.


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## summersetretrievers (Mar 4, 2006)

I am new to beekeeping. Last year came onto beesource right around this time because I remember reading about almond pollination. I find it fascinating that people truck bee's from all over the country to California. 
Several questions (actually lots)
Do you use 8 frame hives instead of 10 frames? 
Do you use deeps, mediums, etc.?
When you place a hive how many boxes are placed?
Do you mark your boxes and if so how?
Do you make contracts with growers prior to shipping out hives?
What would be a minimun number of hives needed to make a profit and pay for expenses. 
How do you make contact with truckers that are knowlegable in bee transport?
How do you make contact with people on other end to place hives?
How do you make contact with growers who are needing hives?
Do you fly out to California to assure your hives are placed correctly?
Do you get honey from almonds? If so do ship hives back heavier with honey or extract it in California?
How do you arrange return shipments?
How long are bee's in orchards for almond pollination?
When do the hives ship back home?
How much can you expect a hive to expand during almond pollination?
Seems like no problem for the bee's to go from cold to warm what about from warm California back to cold home?
Looks likes hives are crashing from posts to list any ideas why? Someone mentioned virus's what kind are there?
Thanks for being patient with me and hope the questions aren't too stupid.
Cindy


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

At 10F the bees will not bother you unless exteme rough handling. Very little smoke is required.

I wasn't concerned about stinging, I'm concerned about clusters getting knocked down during transport and not being able to recluster due to cold temps.

I am wintering 1/2 of my stock north this year (double last year). Due to the queen problems this spring (poorly bred queens due to poor breeding season in Calif) I am not wintereing any nucs.

Mark, we like the scenic route! Actually I lived in Colorado for 3 yrs so I could get that out of my system while I was young.

[ November 23, 2006, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

so if the county my hives are going into accept SHB then the load wont get turned away if they find some? is that the same with fire ants or is that just if they are found there is no way you are gettin in? also any one have there contracts that i could see and maybe use? thanks for all the help guys Nick


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Nick,
If you come from a shb & fire ant free state why worry?

We get our state bee inspector to give us a paper we come from a fire ant free state and will work to get you pass inspection.

However even though we do not have SHb yet SHb is in the state so we have to take our chance at the border.

Loads have been rurned for a single beetle. Also they will not release your load at needles to enter until the person in charge of inspection in the county you are headed for responds back. Ted Kertchman sat 3 days waiting to hear before he was let in.

If they find fire ants your load has to be decontaminated at YOUR EXPENSE before entering.

A load from New York was turned around for a bag worm. Loads can be turned for certain noxious weeds.

All pallets need to be weed and dirt free. 

If you read my last spring article in the American Bee Journal about border troubles you will see what I am talking about.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

yup i did read the artical about border crossing the reason i ask is im thinking about getting 300 singles from Florida i would hardly make any money on the deal but when they get back to MI i would almost have 300 free hives that are strong and ready for blue berries and honey. but that is if ALL GOES WELL, not sure if i want to take the risk still doing a lot of heavy thinking i have to have it figured out next week. regards Nick


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Singles are tricky. They usually leave Florida with only two frames of honey. 

Most are made up ( Horace Bell style)right before shipment so no problems grading.

A friend places 8-9 frames of bees in a simgle in Georgia (no feeder) on two frames of honey (approx. 12 lbs. honey)

The reason for only two frames is truck weight (700 singles to a semi load) and the bees needing room to expand in almonds.

We took a 100 singles along with 1250 doubles one year but we added the second box right before almonds.

If weather in California is cold and the bees can't fly they could need feeding. When I asked Stan ( Georgia) he said "hasn't happened yet".

You could also take your equipment to California and install Australian packages. Some growers will pay for the packages for the pollination fee I have been told. The grower arranges for Australian packages and then you install in your equipment and when pollination is over the packages are yours. The only money you invest is your transportation costs on equipment and labor.

Before you ask I do not have a name of a grower doing the above but the information comes from a reliable source. I have allready recommended the above to several North Dakota beekeepers which have got deadouts and no money to buy packages next spring.

A four pound package from Brown's Bees will easily grade five frames when installed. Better maybe than a weak 3-4 frame out of state hive but certainly not on a level of a strong 8-10 frame overwintered hive which has been pumped with pollen patties and syrup.
Don't try to BS a grower. Be honest!

Packages out perform small hives with brood for the first few weeks ( similar to a newly hived swarm) as the bees do not have to stay and feed/keep brood warm but towards the end of pollination the 3-4 frame hive with brood catches up and maybe performs better.

I have got an article coming out in January about the different types of almonds grown. One type of almond fits exactly in an M&M.

Bloom dates vary as well as nut size etc. Bee requirements vary and depend on the type of almonds planted and their bloom dates.

Almond pollination is both simple & complicated at the same time.


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## Ishi (Sep 27, 2005)

Bob;

It also depends on where in Ca you place the hives. Look at the Blue Diamond site and see the bloom dates between Bakersfield area and above Sacramento.

[ November 23, 2006, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Ishi ]


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi Cindy
Your questions aren't stupid, there are just too many of them, lol.
I will answer some as to our operation here in Central Wisconsin, but there are some that don't apply to us because we use a broker. I would highly recommend you either hook up with a broker or another experienced beekeeper, til you learn the ropes.
Hopefully someone with better/more complete answers will step in. We have only been doing this a couple years ourselves.


Cidyo you use 8 frame hives instead of 10 frames?
Sheri:We use 10 frame equipment but there is no reason I can think of that 8 frame equipment wouldn't be acceptable, you would be paid according to the strength of the hives, that is what counts. 

Cindyo you use deeps, mediums, etc.?
Sheri:We send out mostly story and a halfs, with some double deeps. I have heard of single deeps but in my experience, double deeps and story and a halfs seem the most common.

Cindy:When you place a hive how many boxes are placed?
Sherion't know, our broker does this. I understand they drop so many pallets every so often in the orchard rows, varies by contract. 

Cindyo you mark your boxes and if so how?
Sheri:We hot brand our woodenware with our names. Some people use paint. 

Cindyo you make contracts with growers prior to shipping out hives?
Sheri:Our broker takes care of this. We don't have to worry about finding the grower, placing the hives or collecting the money.

Cindy:What would be a minimun number of hives needed to make a profit and pay for expenses.
Sheri: The semis charge by the mile so no matter how many hives are on the truck they will charge the same. 
If you figured $10000 round trip for the bees, you would probably not be too far off, but you gotta know the mileage to where they are going and the truckers will quote you a per mile price, make sure any fuel surcharges are reflected in the quote. Obviously the more hives on the semi the better, within weight limits. Lots of smaller beekeepers are sharing semis. Then you have to do the math. 
How many hives can you get on a semi? 
How much will they pay out in CA? 
For facility let's use 500 hives @ $120 (after broker's fees) that comes to $60000. Subtract the $10000 trucking, now you're down to $50000. Then it get's tougher, you have to factor in the expense of keeping/making big bees for January, not an easy or inexpensive thing to do. Maybe add a trip or two out there to boost them, consolidate them, treat them, feed them. Hotel rooms. Cost of time away from home. Throw in the risk of pests they might pick up. Your queens are being worked harder, more queen expense. Etc etc etc. A plus is the shape the bees are in when they get back, they have on average been much nicer than WI overwintered hives. There are lots of variables.

Cindy:How do you make contact with truckers that are knowlegable in bee transport?
Sheri:By asking other beekeepers, or your broker.

Cindy:How do you make contact with people on other end to place hives? How do you make contact with growers who are needing hives?
Sheri:Broker does this. I imagine one could place an ad in the almond growers journals, or go farm to farm.....

Cindyo you fly out to California to assure your hives are placed correctly?
Sheri:We don't assure placement, our broker does this. We go out to make sure we have good bees to place. If you need equipment like syrup tanks, forklifts etc out there you gotta drive out, more expense. We drove our bee truck out, fed and pattied, left the truck there and flew home. We plan on flying back out there late December, doin it all again, then driving home. Folks in warmer climes can wait to send their bees out until the orchards are ready for them, they can boost/take care of their hives on home ground since it is warm enough to get in them.

Cindyo you get honey from almonds?
Sheri:They may make a little, this varies by year, I think, we've never made much. Not sure if we would like them to, or trucking concerns, as you mentioned. Anything they make they can keep, sort of like our dandelion bloom.
Cindy:If so do ship hives back heavier with honey or extract it in California?
Sherion't know, hasn't happened to us yet. 

Cindy:How do you arrange return shipments?
Sheri:Our broker will arrange trucking for the return, or we can arrange our own shipping. Once you get into it, lots of truckers call you.

Cindy:How long are bee's in orchards for almond pollination?
Sheriepends on the almonds and the weather. Different almonds have different bloom times. Sometimes the bees are placed between two separate varieties so they first work the early bloomers then work the later blooming. Last year ours were in there a little over a month, I think. They are usually done well before we really need them home.

Cindy:When do the hives ship back home?
Sheri:This depends on when the growers release them from the orchards, depending on the bloom. They start shipping as soon as they are released but the southern beeks are anxious to get theirs back, so sometimes it takes awhile. Last year we got our first load back third week of March, last load 2nd week of April. Trucking was difficult last spring because all those bees wanted to go home at the same time. This fall there are a lot more truckers looking to haul bees, hopefully it is the same come March, sure makes our life much easier.

Cindy:How much can you expect a hive to expand during almond pollination?
Sheri:Not sure but they do come back to Wisconsin big. Like in, "Hard to keep ahead of the swarming", big. 

Cindy:Seems like no problem for the bee's to go from cold to warm what about from warm California back to cold home?
Sheri:By the time they get back to WI it is starting to warm up, the real cold is over. But I think being cooped up in the colder weather contributes to their tendency to be swarmier.

Cindy:Looks likes hives are crashing from posts to list any ideas why? Someone mentioned virus's what kind are there?
Sheri:I'd like to hear more about this too.

Hope this helped a little.
Sheri


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

i should have been more specific rob. what is happening is we are buying splits right now they will be made up in a week if we want to do this. and the beekeeper will feed them in florida and ship them to california when ever we want. he says by almond time they will be 8-10 frames of bees. Thus will need the second box almost immediatly after placed in the almonds. so even if they go directly into almonds will they still need a little feed? i mean do the almonds produce much nectar i have been told that they do. Nick


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Nick
Don't get me wrong I am on your side. But here is my question: If this is such a good deal why won't the FLA guy do it himself?

If you do it I would try to condition payment on your hives making grade in California. That takes away the risk of being shorted by the FL seller.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Nick,
I don't see serious problems with what you are considering if the Florida end does his job ( and has shipped singles to California before).

You installing the second box in Florida and checking before shipping would save a trip to California and you get to see what you are buying.

Will be similar in California but the hives are yours then.

You might PM the name of the Florida supplier. I am on a first name basis with most.

If you decide to go through with the plan I can provide the name of a beekeeping family which ships singles into and out of California without adding a second box. They have got a system and feeding is not part of the system.

Cindy,
Almond honey tastes bad! Yuk! Bitter taste! 

I have to stay off computer today as expecting a call from an almond grower in California. Will be back on line after his call.


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## RSUCHAN (Oct 20, 2006)

Rob I just can not understand how people keep bees with out inside feeders. I spot checked several hundered yesterday while hunting with #2 son. Even if we wanted to send a load of doubles to CA. in the next few days for almonds we would be lucky to get maybe 400 on a load due to there weight. We came to the idea several years ago that you can not over feed a hive of bees. And I have yet to see them waste a pound of feed . Sure makes for great healthy bees in the spring for splitting. I have been getting a fair amount of calls from brokers & truckes looking for bess for CA. More that ever in my 30 years in this crazy business. There must be some kind of a problem with all the calls we have had already in November.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

The trouble comes from the large number of deadouts and weak hives limping out of the Midwest. The drought has devestated the North Dakota industry.
growers are stepping up inspections and hiring hobby beekeepers to inspect.
This year should be interesting.
I would not go to almonds without contract. I would want the contract to read 4 frame *average*
for protection from not getting paid AND BRING 8 FRAMERS!.
It seems the only way out of state beekeepers will learn is to get burned. Most seem to think its always the other guy which gets burned.
Once on a CSI show on TV the statement was made:
"Our files are full of cases which the people involved thought it would never happen to them.

Word from my friend Randy Oliver in California ( has attended all the recent meetings) is the border inspections will be tougher and hive grading increased.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

It seems to me kinda strange that on the one hand the growers are starting to cry for hives, foreseeing a shortage and on the other they are making it tougher for the beeks to get in and paid. They can't have it both ways. The phrase "Beggers can't be choosers" comes to mind. Or is it just two different camps of growers sending out these conflicting signals?
A lot of beeks are giving their all to produce grood strong hives come January, but it ain't that easy if you are starting out with a bunch of empty boxes. Do the growers think we are bringing our bees out there as a favor to them?
At some point one would think the growers would be happy to get what they can get, paying accordingly. I guess the consensus of what that should be is still up in the air, hence all the manuevering. Methinks it is looking more and more like a sellers market is developing, the beeks, of course, being the sellers.
Sheri


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## RSUCHAN (Oct 20, 2006)

Better get used to it. The day of the good ole boy's & doing business with just a phone call & a hand shake are almost gone. It's a real shame. It has become that cash is king & what ever you need to do do aquire more of it. With all the problems in Dakotas this year I hear a lot of loads of dead out equiptment got shipped to Texas this fall. Heard this from a number of truckers, as they hauled numbers of empty equiptment south in the past few weeks.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

RSuchan,
I heard through the grapevine you were asking about me.

When the deal was offered on those 350 hives the next thing Michael heard was.

"Your in Nebraska?".

We started depopulating a half hour before sunup and quit after dark. Had to rope on by a street light in Pender.

Stopped at noon to eat. Long day!

Once the air is full of bees the bees forget about the beekeepers going through the hives but you knew that. Long day but the bees looked good when we got home except for a few packages we put too many bees in.

We gave a big wave when we passed your house and wished we had time to stop and visit but we had to get home with our booty. 

Bob


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## RSUCHAN (Oct 20, 2006)

What did your contact in CA. have to say this morning???????


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## RSUCHAN (Oct 20, 2006)

What did your contact in CA. have to say this morning???????


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

RSuchan,
He told me Thursday by email he would call today but no message on the machine. I am too busy to sit around waiting for a call i have no idea when is coming.

I expect to hear from the grower yet. 

We are not sending bees without a contract this year and the contract needs to protect both parties.

I have been involved in some large pollinations based on a handshake but sadly those days are over in California.

Every heard of Hubert Tubbs ( past pres AHPA) he had a semi load refused as not strong enough to pollinate - lost around twenty thousand dollars.

Ever heard of Ted kertchman ( Past Pres. Alabama state beekeepers assn.) Ted sent two semi loads to a Beekeeper/broker. The hives were placed in almonds. He luckily got his bees back but was never paid for his almond pollination.

Both the above were never told about a strength requirement.

I can go on & on but getting tired of typing.

The above all used brokers. I have never used a broker and have never been burned.

If beekeepers on beesource get burned this year please email as we are thinking of making up a website named 
"bad brokers" for beekeepers to look at. Ted Kertchmans idea.

A close friend was promised (no signed contract) 150 a hive. He cleared around thirty bucks a hive. The broker ( after pollination was over and bees sent back) said a third of his bees were not strong enough. No way of knowing but those bees were solid in a box and covering frames in the bottom box when shipped. 

My recomendation is to keep in touch with your broker and if he/she tries to say your bees are not strong enough buy a plane ticket and head west to see for yourself and speak with the broker. Otherwise you are at his/her mercy and deserve to get ripped off.

A favorite broker trick is to not return calls. Not reurning calls. Get on a plane.

If the broker tells you your semi load is missing (happened to one of my best friends) do what my friend did. Get on a plane without telling the broker you are coming and show up at his door. 
Tell the broker you are going to run an add in the Fresno Bee giving a 5,000 reward for return of the load . The broker found the load within four hours and called my friend at his motel room. When he looked at his bees a nuc had been pulled from each hive. 
Broker had been busy.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

RSuchan,
I always remember the last days of Western Commerce (WC). They were offering 20 to 30 cents a pound for honey higher than any U.S. packer. I told a friend the company was about to crash but he didn't listen and gave WC his honey. 3 months went by with no check. Then 6 months and then the news WC had closed their doors. He never got paid for his crop.


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

Up I remember WC very well. Shipped them a load of honey & 90 days later still no check. Honey was under loan. So I went to the FSA office & started some crap. Got the county attorney involved & I called the legal boys at the federal level. In Nebr. we used to have a little unknown law dealing with transport of farm goods accross state lines an not paying for them. Got my check from WC in the next few days & they got banned from purchasing loan honey for 6 months or better. Then I got a not so nice phone call from some one connected with this deal a few weeks later. Took the the tape off the answering machine to the proper people & need I say any more.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

RSuchan,
Had a long converstation today with the grower. I learned things about almonds and almond growing I did not know. Very reasonable person and the type of person I like to deal with. I think problems we might have could easily be worked out between us.
He expressed the same concerns other almond growers are expressing.

To sum almond pollination up from interviewing both almond growers & beekeepers for my almond pollination ABJ articles.

Many almond growers feel beekeepers are price gouging instead of pricing according to expense and a reasonable profit. Especially California beekeepers. Many growers are shopping around.

Many beekeepers feel growers are getting rich on almonds and can easily afford the high prices beekeepers are asking. It is interesting that attempts to increase pollination fees on other U.S. crops has been problematic. Also that the fruit growers in California only pay 10-30 a hive for their pollination.

Someplace in between is common ground but finding common ground is hard. 

Brokers ( my favorite subject) are reaping huge profits as middle men always do. In other words growers ( at least most of those I have spoke with) do not know what the broker is paying the beekeepers for the hives and the beekeepers ( same as growers)do not know what the brokers are charging for the hives.

I really like dealing directly with the grower.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Double post

[ November 26, 2006, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: JohnK and Sheri ]


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Rob, don't the bees make a honey crop on the fruit trees, unlike almonds? It is my understanding that the beeks basically got paid in honey for these crops that only pay $10-30, or sometimes even get paid nothing at all but the honey. I think it is supply and demand at work here, and it will settle. At some point the beekeepers won't feel it worth it to bring their hives in from, say, Wisconsin. It costs us more than $30 a hive to send our bees out there. At some point, the growers won't feel they can pay a certain price, and will use less bees, push harder for self pollinating almonds or go back to growing grapes. Everyone is just trying to make a living here and the growers of course in the vast majority are fine folks, dealing with market forces just like us beekeepers. The reason no one knows what anyone is paying or getting paid yet is because the price hasn't settled yet. I for one would rather be part of a group of 50000 hives offered by a broker who knows the ropes than an individual with a few hundred, who would have no bargaining power at all. 
Speaking of brokers, yes, a few might be unethical, but I think it is mostly demand shoving their prices up. With your soured attitude towards them one would think you must have been burnt by a bad one yourself. I personally think our broker earns every penny we pay him. I certainly wouldn't want his job.
It is unreasonable to suggest every pollinator can invest the time and money to go out to Calif, do the footwork and research, fool with the contracts, arrange trucking out and back, haul the bees in and out of the orchards on demand, collect the money, interface with the inspectors etc. Only those large enough to have loaders on each end and willing and able to spend lots of time and money living with their bees in California would choose to go. Without the brokers, do you really think the bees would be out there in the numbers required?

In addition, without the brokers, a few growers would take advantage of beekeepers, perhaps even justifying it in their own minds because of the quick rise in pollination fees. You talk about having a contract. How would the average beek ever enforce a contract with a grower who decides the bees aren't up to snuff? The beek would be hurt financially if denied that almond check, and now they need a California lawyer as well? No, many would be forced to settle for whatever was offered, contract or not. And I sure wouldn't want to be the beek who lucked out with the grower who decided he wasn't going to pay at all. The growers think twice before shorting the broker who will need to supply him with bees the following year.

You seem to have given much thought to the brokers role, I hope that includes some of the positive services they provide and have some thoughts as to how these services would be provided for the smaller beekeepers if not for the brokers. I would be interested in hearing them. 
Perhaps some sort of universal annual contract negociated between the Almond Growers Association and the Pollinating Beekeepers Association will evolve eventually, with dues and fees to cover defaults from either side. Something along these lines would maybe provide a much more stable business environment for everyone.

Sheri


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sheri,
I don't really know what to say. 

I have been to California and done all phases of almond polination.

I saw problems and in the words of Joe Traynor about last year:
"Many beekeepers will have to wire home for bus money to get home and outfits will be for sale in the bee magazines"

Joe was simply stating facts. I don't have a problem with Joe. If you want to use Joe as a broker the boxes need to bee full of bees. All beekeepers are warned ahead of time. Top dollar for the best bees.

Its the brokers which do not warn beekeepers about grading I worry about. The brokers which do not pay. The brokers which pull frames & nucs for their own interests. The brokers which place hives in flood areas. the brokers which place hives where they get mouldy frames and die. The brokers which let hives starve. You are sitting back in Wi or Mo and think " my broker will call me if my bees need feeding".
I can provide names of beekeepers which have had the above problems and in most cases many.

I know its hard for you to understand what I am saying because you have not been to almonds. 
Would you rather be warned about possible problems or be one of the beekeepers Joe spoke of. California beekeepers on beesource have warned out of state beekeepers. Randy oliver & Keith Jarret have warned in their ABJ articles.

If you heed our warnings and cover your bases then you will most likely not have problems. If you place trust in the untrustable then you will see what many have seen.

Almonds have pumped needed cash flow into a dying beekeeping industry. The only problem now is keeping bees alive and bringing boxes full of bees.

If beekeepers were united and under a contract perhaps things would be easier to keep a stable business environment but things are always changing in the bee business and almond growers I have spoke with are looking for solutions to the rising cost of pollination.

Just like my friend Randy Oliver said :
" almond pollination is kind of like the gold rush days".

Towns build up around an industry. Mann Lake has opened a branch. Rental places are renting bee trucks complete with rope hooks. Large outfits are relocating to California and brokers are popping up all over the place.

In the meantime China & Australia are palnting almond trees. Self fertile are being developed. Growers are pushing for bees from Canada & Mexico to drive the pollination price down.

The only certain thing about the bee business is change. Always changing. Honey prices always changing. New pests. You move bees to your best honey producing location and a new shopping center sits where the field used to be. Change.

I have had good experience in almonds. I don't care for the old motels in the valley area or the fast food. I do not care for the long drive out but I do like the company of commercial beekeepers. Most motels are full with trucks ,trailers and lifts sitting all around.

On nice days we spend hours sitting outside at the picnic table talking bees,beekeeping and at times brokers. In Texas we sit around the restaurant in mornings talking. Same in Florida.
I have been in all three areas in winter. 

Most work in California is done at night. None of us used brokers. The largest at our motel had brought over 10,000 hives and the smallest a semi load.

Placing hives in almonds is some of the easiest bee work I ever did. Boring comes to mind. Finding your way around the groves and the markers growers place is the hardest part but you get used to it.

Once it was red ribbons tied in trees. Maybe OK in day but hard at night to find.

Paper plates with a stick stuck through. A big wind came up and blew the plates off.

Really gets interesting when you put your hives in the wrong grove which never happened to us but did to others.

The big guys now use GPS.

Hopefully Sheri you will never have problems in California. I still think its wise to warn newbees of possible problems.

1. send only your BEST bees. Strong bees!

2. get a contract with the grower or go with a reliable broker ( and get a contract from your broker SIGNED BY BOTH OF YOU AND NOT JUST YOU. Ask the broker for references.

bob


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

Brian was out west of here 1 state for the long weekend to play in the snow. He could not believe all the bees in holding yards & yards of bees that have not been gathered up yet. On his drive back yesterday he met no less than 12 loads leaving, heading west. Still saw a lot of bees in out yards that needed to be collected. Lots of singles he tells me. Way to many for this time of the year in Nebr. We both wondered how these singles will work for almonds when 8 frams are needed to make count?????


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

Brian was out west of here 1 state for the long weekend to play in the snow. He could not believe all the bees in holding yards & yards of bees that have not been gathered up yet. On his drive back yesterday he met no less than 12 loads leaving, heading west. Still saw a lot of bees in out yards that needed to be collected. Lots of singles he tells me. Way to many for this time of the year in Nebr. We both wondered how these singles will work for almonds when 8 frams are needed to make count?????


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

Brian was out west of here 1 state for the long weekend to play in the snow. He could not believe all the bees in holding yards & yards of bees that have not been gathered up yet. On his drive back yesterday he met no less than 12 loads leaving, heading west. Still saw a lot of bees in out yards that needed to be collected. Lots of singles he tells me. Way to many for this time of the year in Nebr. We both wondered how these singles will work for almonds when 8 frams are needed to make count?????


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

Nothing like posting this deal 3 times. 
**** puters anyhow!!!!!!


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Soupcan,
They will work great *if* a shortage of bees. 

Which looks like might be the case with the problems north of you.

You guys had a bumper crop and your bees should be looking good. I would consider almonds.

Also we took a 100 singles this time of year in around 2001 I think. Added the second box from weak or hives which went queenless during the trip. Out of 1350 hives a 100 top boxes ( deadouts,queenless or weak hives 50) was not hard to find come late January.

Bees with pollen patties are still building brood in California I was told yesterday. The bees will start again after the 23rd. of Dec. so those singles could be ready by Feb. but swarming could be an issue if a second box is not added.

Graders do not like bees in two boxes and prefer a single. I am not a fan of graders! Bees in two boxes in feb. bees can be hard to grade especialy if the temp is above 60F. I have been keeping bees since I was thirteen and many times a grader ( couple years with bees) and I do not see the same thing but on the other hand we both can see a dead hive or severely weak hive. 

Bees are harder to grade in two boxes when the cluster is in both boxes. We feel bees have been graded wrong by graders in two boxes in many cases. Also bees have been graded when its too warm. Graders many times grade everyday all day. Beekeepers are not around so why not.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Good morning Rob
I agree with most that you say; what has bothered me about these discussions is that while warning of the pitfalls is good, no viable options are discussed as to where a newbee would start. What does the potential new pollinator do? 

Yes, potential pollinators better do their homework. Their broker, if they go that route, better be reputable. Their bees better be big. It is risky business, and the risks can be somewhat allayed, not eliminated, by doing all you suggest. They need to keep in mind, though, that the pitfalls are not all caused by brokers. Dealing directly with the growers may take away some risks, but add other substantial ones. There are two sides to this coin.

We are not as experienced as you, but we have been full time commercial beeks for over 20 years and this will be our third year sending our bees out to almonds. We sent 4 semis of our own out there this year, but also added some surplus to a smaller beek's load he wasn't able to fill by himself. Smaller farther afield outfits are needed to fill the void, many combining loads with others for cost effectiveness. They can't all go deal directly with growers.
We have done our share sitting around the restaurants, stayed in the old motels, gotten sick of the fast food, lol. While you or we can afford the time far from home to sit around in the winter talking with beeks and brokers, many cannot. They have wives, children, some have other jobs. 

I have no problem with folks NOT going with a broker if they can commit the time and effort to all that entails. I also think a broker is one of only a few options for smaller outfits who can't afford to spend lots of time and money in California. 
While I wouldn't have any problem working with Joe, our bees have always been with Lyle Johnston and crew. And YES, he WOULD call us if our bees were starving, if he knew. Keeping feed on our bees is not their responsibility, it is ours. Either send them out heavy enough or go out and feed them, as we do. Our broker is not a babysitter for our bees. He is an interface between beekeeper and grower, provided needed services to both. 

Sheri


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sheri,
I spoke with Randy Oliver last week. Randy has been attending all the meetings. Randy said growers are stepping up inspections.
What usually happens when inspections are stepped up is this.
You get a call a third of your hives have been tagged rejected by inspectors. No fee! You are still charged the shipping.
If lucky the almond grove owner will allow to stay in the grove.
In two cases last year when very many were rejected the grove owner had all hives pulled and sent to a holding yard and the contract was given to another beekeeper.
Privately I can provide names of these beekeepers.

Best advice I can give if growers step up inspections:

Do not send all your hives. Only send the best.
We grade (1 2 & 3 and only send no.1) When the growers were taking "field run" then was OK but not with tough single hive grading.
In Blueberries the grader looks at ten percent and then gets an average and all hives are paid off the average. The system would work better for the beekeeper in California than every hive grading.

You can pay a bunch of graders at minimum wage when you are paying $150 to $160 a hive polination fee. What does it a figure about a buck a hive even if slow!

Many beekeepers had every hive graded last year!


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

The 'yeah or nay" grading system sucks. While a weak hive is rejected a double big hive is paid the same as any 'accepted' hive. This just encourages beekeepers to steal from the larger, better pollinating hive to boost the smaller ones, with a perhaps net loss of bee power. Dumm!
A frame average is fair to both beekeeper and grower. It's not the worst idea to go around with the graders, or have your own representative, to make sure the grading is equitable. As you stated, the opinions might differ depending on one's outlook. Temp and time of day NEEDS to be considered. 

Are these sudden-sticklers-for-size growers the same growers who are happy with imported packages? I just don't get it. 
Sheri


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sheri,
We are on the same page as far as grading goes.

I looked at hives which i would grade as 8 frame which were graded 4 last year. NONE OF THE BEES IN THE BOTTOM BOX WERE COUNTED AND ONLY FRAMES WHICH WERE FULL ON BOTH SIDES AND THE LENGTH OF THE FRAME.

The graders won out.

You can jump up and down and point fingers any way you like but if you get the call a third of your hives did not grade the minimum you have got serious problems.

Pointing the finger at Australian packages will not help. The top amount sent in is 40,000 which is lost among the million colonies needed in almonds. I would guess half are used to boost weak hives.

Some are used in almonds but those using know:
80% of almond polination takes place in the first five days of bloom. Also five frames of bees with brood WILL NOT send the bees in California a four pound package will. In the first three weeks a newly installed Australian package will bring in more pollen than a five frame hive with brood.
BUT
Then the scenario starts to change as brood hatches. No way will a four pound package out perform an overwintered strong hive with twice the bees.
However smart almond growers are seeing packages as an asset. If brought in and kept in a cool place ( up to several weeks) and not allowed to run out of syrup the package can be held until right before non Pariel blooms or better yet befor sonora (pollinator) blooms. Sonora blooms two days before non pariel.
Then installed the package bees WILL DO the job. 
Always remember all almond growers care about is the end result.
Many are offering to buy the package for the beekeeper and let the beekeeper get the package for the pollination. I am talking about the most progressive grower. The type which is on top of his game. 
Experiments run last year by a few growers *seem* to be working out but I have only got the information given by the growers. I have got no first hand knowledge of the experiments.
Many growers are high tech.
Joe Traynor has suggested a "throw away package" and has even emailed asking my opinion. He is basing his idea on an old USDA study. I found the study in an old ABJ and might work. 
Please do not kill the messenger but only be a knowledgeable beekeeper and try to be informed.
Some of us are looking 10 years into the future of almond pollination.
Right now almond prices are high so growers i have spoke with are going along with prices but are getting quotes from other beekeepers and looking for ways to reduce cost *if* almond prices start to drop.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Rob, I hope my tone wasn't a "kill the messenger" one, it was not intended that way. Nor am I "jumping up and down pointing fingers". 

We have mulled Australian packages ourselves. I just have a hard time seeing the economics of it. On an individual basis to replenish a catastrophic loss maybe but not as normal operating procedure.

I certainly don't know it all, and haven't done any studies, but we ran packages many years alongside overwintered hives. The overwintered colonies of course outperformed the packages but we didn't measure pollen gathering. And these were fresh packages. Do they get better with age? I would like to see controlled studies of this. Can you point me to a link?
If these "smart" growers want packages, the beeks in California can shake them as well as the guys in Australia, and save on the the shipping. Seems to me packages only make sense when there is a great dearth of bees. Or someone wants to prove a point. With some of the scrambling and hard feelings last year I suspect there was a little grasping at straws as well as a little 'cutting your nose off to spite your face'.
I can sympathise with the growers seeing such quick raises in price and understand them trying to find a way to lower them. Some have become beekeepers themselves to supply their own needs. 
More power to them. I sincerely wish them luck. 
Sheri


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

In a experiment done by Dr Frank Eishen this past year,funded by CSBA and the Almond Board, the following was found. A 8 frame hive collects 3 times the pollen of a 4 frame hive. He included Ausi packages at 4 frame in his experiment. The almond growers see the results of their research dollars. The conclusion is; If a 4 frame is worth $i20.00 then a 8 frame is worth $360.00. If 2 1/2 hives of 4 framers per acre does the job at cost $300.00, why not rent one 8 to 10 framer per acre at cost of $150.00 to $170.00. While on the subject of research , Joe Traynor donated $2.00 per hive to bee research. If everyone put in one dollar per hive we could solve some of these problems.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

nice bit of info jjgbee and I do suspect you conclusion is directly on target.

most certainly everyone would rather their neighbor shoulder the burden than themselves....


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Surely you guys don't need the USDA to tell you a strong overwintered colony will bring in more pollen than a newly hived package. Or do you?

If you read carefully my posts I never said it would. What I said it would out perform a five frame hive with brood.

The above test was pushed by almond brokers to increase fees.

The standard for years in almonds has been four frames of bees.

Joe Traynor has pushed and is offering the 8 frame (every hive) almond pollinator. I personally do not have a problem with the concept. 

Always room for corvettes and grocery getters ( reliable cars as my son called our family car) in the market place.

Traynor concept is simple. Strong 8 frame hive.

The new young college educated (agronomy degree) almond grower sees almond pollination as applying the correct number of bees at precisely the right time for a certain period of time.

Smart use of chemicals,water and pollination.

Weather is his focus!

He/she wants to be able to order hives according to weather. Nice weather during bloom 1 hive per acre. Bad weather 3 hives per acre during bloom.

Brokers want the almond contract to prevent the above!

The broker concept is simply :
"Write me a check and no worries"

The grower concept is "with smart pollination I can save tens of thousands of dollars".

Varroa kills its host. Don't let the *get rich in a couple years brokers* kill the almond industry by forcing hives in from Mexico.

Many say there are more hives today in Mexico than the whole U.S. and those hives are closer than Florida.

I have spoken with many almond growers and they are looking for a solution and paying $240 a hive is not the option they are considering.

The brokers big fear this year is that huge commercial beekeepers currently not in almonds will do as they did last year and send in hives in the $70 a hive range to create turmoil. Joe Traynor in his own words only controls 2% of the hives going into almonds yet he is the spokesman.
You can not train the almond grower with big graphs and presentations when outside beekeepers are offering hives boiling with bees for around $70 a hive.
Please do not kill the messenger! I am only a reporter of what is happening and perhaps an beekeeping history writer as I have been in the bee business since the 1950's. 
I have no doubt many of the list have never before heard the things I am saying.
In Missouri there are more outlaws today than anytime in history. Fact! Ask the police! Only today they drive four wheel drives and use AK 47's.
Today on the History Channel ( dish network) is the story of the Boom town days of the East Texas oil fields. The story of Frank Hamer is very interesting as he makes Wyatt Earp look like a choir boy. Shot 17 times and left for dead four times. Brought out of retirement to kill Bonnie and Clyde. I love American history!
Dangle $240 a hive for hives and the Gold rush is on. You reap what you so. 
Exciting times as fortunes are made and operations fold. In the end the Mexicans will control almonds in my opinion. 
Garcia has been in almonds as long as any California operation.

Instead of fighting what I say you need to be learning. Will help those doing almond pollination to make future business decisions.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi Rob
Your experience and openness to relay information are valued. Please don't percieve questions and duscussion as opposition. No one is fighting you personally, but there are many vested interests, resulting in different viewpoints. I would like to hear all viewpoints, and the consequences of different proposed actions considered.

For instance, 
Beekeepers. There are some California beekeepers who would be quite happy if us "foreigners" would stay home. One would think all beekeepers would be on the same page but not in all instances.

Brokers. Not all are the devil incarnate, not lifting a finger except to count their money. Ours is a third generation beekeeper who has been involved in almonds a long time. He is well known and reputable. As is Joe Traynor. Many value their services.

Growers. I heard of a couple growers who tried packages last year and consider it a failed expirement, not all agree packages are a good option. But maybe these growers' packages just didn't sit around long enough? OK, me bad, now I'm kidding. Seriously, my point is, it is good to hear all sides. There are factions within factions. And some folks have an agenda is starting their particular rumor. I am sure in your interviews you see a lot of this.

That said, more discussion 
****He/she wants to be able to order hives according to weather. Nice weather during bloom 1 hive per acre. Bad weather 3 hives per acre during bloom****
Weather is very changable that time of year. Does this educated person think we will wait around to see how many of our hives he wants to order the day before placement? 
Maybe I am misunderstanding this.....if not, this is the ultimate in arrogance, or maybe just nievete. There is huge cost in readying and moving bees into California. Maybe could be arranged when California beeks could handle the pollination....but those days are gone, taking with them the days the pollinators could put three frames of bees in and got paid accordingly.
Again, maybe I am missing something here. This grower wants us to take bees out and set them in a holding yard in the offchance they are wanted? 
I don't think so.....
Unfortunately, as in most businesses, one had better be prepared for the worst case scenarios. 
If the grower places too few bees counting on 7 days of good weather and he only gets 2 days, don't blame the bees for insufficient pollination.
In addition, if everyone heeds your advice and gets a contract, it sounds like so much wishfull thinking.
If the brokers are fighting this, I am definitely with them. 
Seems like this new breed of grower is the prime candidate for running his own bees. Who knows, with honey prices in the pits maybe some of the current beeks will end up running the growers' hives for them. 

As to colony strength; 8 frame minimum, there are just not enough of these hives in the U.S. in late January. The 8framers should be paid more than 5 frames, agreed. But two full deeps should be paid double that too, right? Otherwise, the beeks will split them. A waste of resources for all concerned.
Growers should be able to expect a reasonable average colony strength, they are paying good money for them, but setting unreasonable standards as a means to manipulate pricing is not a farsighted productive practice, and will lead to continued hard feelings and problems down the road. Problems as in "no bees available to worst offenders next year". Trust would be gone.

The Mexican option is an interesting one. I had assumed the growers would be the ones pushing for this, is this incorrect? After all, I would think they would be the principal ones to benefit? Our broker, who is also a beekeeper, does NOT want the border opened. I cannot imagine the border being opened to Mexico when they are barely allowing TX hives in.

Sheri


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sheri,

To continue:
None of us can predict what will happen in California this year. Many have called asking me!

I do not know what will happen but I am in a position to know sooner than most due to my contacts.

if a repeat of last year then every out of stater better have a contract. 

If a severe shortage or growers wait till the last minute then the guys without the contract will make the big bucks.

Most beekeepers I have talked to have signed a contract in the $125 range to be sure they are covered. However a new issue has came into place. Grading.

If the grower feels the bees he has been brought are not what he ordered he can get out of the contract. Many used the strength clause last year to drop a contract and go with the $70 hives.

Signing a contract for an 8 frame average is like placing your head on the grower chopping block.
Bees always drop back to 4-5 frame average in winter and when no honey flow is on in Florida.
Old bees die off in hives from the Midwest and die in transit so clusters shrink. California beekeepers work constantly to keep bees on an 8 frame average.

Brent Adee had big troubles with grading last season. It seems the bigger your outfit the tougher to get past graders. Pumping feed alone will not do it!

yes some California beekeepers resent out of state beekeepers. I know from experience.

Yes all brokers are not bad but a broker handling 50,000 hives has trouble even remembering the location of your hives without looking. You want your bees taken care of quit making excuses and go to California yourself. What we do!

Growers. Joe Traynor told me how thrilled his growers were. So I called a few. Hmmm.

As far as the Mexican border i spoke about the situation in an earlier post. Certain beekeepers want ninety cent Mexican queens and 15 dollar packages. 

they want the hives shipped as *freight* ( this is important to the issue!) across the border to be inspected by the USDA. Then released to be trucked into almonds on the U.S. side by U.S. beekeepers.

Of course Mexican beekeepers are afraid of picking up SHB in California. Other than SHB Southern California and Mexico have got the same beekeeping pests.

Give me one reason why the border should stay closed besides protecting U.S. beekeepers.

U.S. Beekeepers might be able to keep the border closed if it were not for NAFTA and the WTO.

I would not like to see the Mexican border opened (which I have said before) but those that do have got the money, lawyers and pull to get the job done.

I could paint a picture of what would happen if the border would open but not pretty. I do not think California and out of state beekeepers could get those contracts back if lost to large beekeepers south of the border.

They will come in with rock bottom prices to corner the market. Are U.S. beekeepers ready to get in a price war with the Mexican beekeepers?

The newsletters of the national groups are full of convention news instead of real issues facing the industry. Many beekeepers feel both are asleep at the wheel.

Meeting once a year and making some resolutions will not solve the problems facing the beekeeping industry.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Jjgbee
Thanks for bringing up the comparison study on Aussie packages. After googling around a bit I found it right here on Beesource, should have known.
The url is http://www.beesource.com/POV/traynor/aus_uspollination.htm versus US 

Interesting article
Last paragragh
"In summary, our data indicate that the 4-lb Australian package colonies performed about like the 6-frame US colonies, and collected a little less than half the pollen collected y the 8-frame US colonies. The 3-lb Australian package colonies collected about half the pollen that the 4-lb package colonies collected." 

Rob
you said "Give me one reason why the border should stay closed besides protecting U.S. beekeepers."

Yeah, protecting U.S. beekeepers has never been very high on any politicians list, has it? 
Maybe the question shouldn't be phrased as protecting the beekeeper but as *protecting the nation's food supply*. Anybody that eats should be able to get behind that. Comes right back to educating the consumer. 
Sheri


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

Bob Harrison If you went to Cal or National Bee meetings, you might be better informed. As for all those bee busting boxes ready to come to cal for $70.00, Paramount farms thought the the same thing. They started off offering $125.00 in July. By Nov in time for the CA convention, they raised price to$135.00 and $2.00 per frame over 8 frame. Research is not funded or directed by brokers. The research committee is made up of all CA assn members that want to be involved. If YOU join our assn, you can add your input. Funding comes from many of us beeks that have donated $1.00 per five or much more per hive. At our auction where all funds go to research, beeks paid over $1000.00 for items of little value. We had 11 excellent speakers from universitys across the country. If it sounds like you might have ruffled my feathers, you did. Every bit of education, where ever gathered, improves your mind.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sheri,
Still sounds like you are trying to kill the messenger!

"protecting the nations food supply"

From pollination by bee hives from Mexico or Canada.

You are right about beekeepers not being very high on politicians lists.

A few politicians are open to our problems but most are not interested in us.

I offered to show the honey board the way to get our problems in front of public when I was sent to the Honey Board meeting in KC. Sadly all they were interested in was value added products for packers.

If the list is interested in what I consider the most valuable thing we could be doing please see:
The Nov. 6th 2006 ( yes this months and laying in most Doctors office and offices)issue of TIME magazine.

Maybe I am the only beekeeper which reads Time but I assure you every politician DOES!

The article is on page 56 & 57. The centerfold! 

RIGHT IN THE CENTER OF THE MAGAZINE. 

Outlines in clear detail our problems!

Other articles like the one in TIME could be done! 

The graphics were done by two people and the text by two people.

Somebody put some real money in the two page article. 

As a writer I can assure the list the payment from Time did not cover the work involved in the article.

I urge the list to stop by a library and look at the article.

Please let me know what you think of the work!

Even George Bush most likely read the Nov.6 issue as his picture was on the cover and it was the election issue. 

A carefully planned article. hmmm.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Rob, where on earth are you getting my "trying to kill the messenger"? I am beginning to think you have a paranoid streak.







And I thought we were getting along so well. 
My point was this:
Anyone who has been in honey production can vouch for the hardship that cheap imported honey has caused the beekeeper. Many have been revived, as you yourself said, by pollination fees. If they lose that source of income because of more cheap imports, the commercial beekeeper will be closer yet to an endangered species. In my opinion, a country is not acting in it's own best interestwhen it turns control of important functions over to other countries. Just look at the mess we made by doing this with energy. Pollination is an important function in food production.
Sheri


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Here is a link to the article in Time mag.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1552024-1,00.html 

This takes you to online version, without a script, there are no pics and lots of ads, but I think most of the text is there. Will have to get to a library to see the graphics.
Yes, articles like this really help the "cause".

One glaring misstatement.....trachael mites don't kill an entire hive in a matter of hours, good thing!
Sheri
edited for flakiness! twice! Sheesh.

[ November 28, 2006, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: JohnK and Sheri ]


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sheri,
I agree! We are on the same page. 

I would like to see beekeepers get upset and really try to fight for honey crop insurance and keeping borders closed.

I hinted at what could kill the U.S. queen and package industry but those in the industry seem unconcerned.

I have been doing niche markets since I retired in 1998. Keeping only the most profitable parts of my former beekeeping.

If almond pollination goes south the only way the commercial beekeeper can survive in my opinion is either producer/packer or niche markets with added value.

I don't believe the U.S. beekeeper can seriously compete with foreign honey ( unless we can get label laws changed which seems farther from happening now with the new packer honey board).

I would like to see the words Foreign Honey on each jar and being the largest letters on the jar instead of print so small you can hardly read!

bob


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Well after 5 pages of this thread I must chime in. The last time I piped in about almond pollination I was in the almonds and on the " 2006 almond pollination scenario thread." I see the topic is still hot. My last post was:

"Maybe the gold rush mentality will be diminished for next year and those that survive will be fairly strong. I know I will be signing my contracts earlier than ever. I have had enough undercutting and scrambling to last for quite a while. Is there a bright side to crop damage? Perhaps some shortage will boost almond prices for next year and growers wont be able to use low prices as an excuse to put the squeeze on."

To put it into context, we had just got burned on a contract for 400 Aussie packages and was barely able to rent our over wintered, which were plenty strong. We eventually rented most but not all the packages and many had to go for poor prices or face no rental at all. The cutthroat mentality had taken hold and most guys began cutting their own throats weeks earlier. This was the first time we came out of the almonds owing money. Previous years we had used a broker and were happy with the results. Well, for 07 we have our contracts signed over a month ago with half down payment (no broker). Both of the growers we are servicing got packages last year and approached me to come back with the same "strong hives we brought last time." and increased their order from last year. So I guess technically I can use packages again and use my over wintered elsewhere. It can be done right with the packages and it can be done wrong. There are some finesse techniques that will make it go much better and the grower will invite you back! 
All in all, I do not like to buy bees and look forward to not ever having to again, but we are growing fast and the Aussie packages seemed to be a good way to fast track growth despite issues with genetics. That is probably a topic for another thread. All I know it is sure easy to sleep at night when not having to wonder if the bees are going to rent. We settled for less than top dollar for next year and opted for early payment and signing with known happy growers. So far 07, looks to be off to a great start for us. I hope it does not get ugly for anybody next year.
JBJ


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

***If almond pollination goes south the only way the commercial beekeeper can survive in my opinion is either producer/packer or niche markets with added value.***
Yes, and producer/packer is no easy feat either, with the Walmarts of the world controlling the markets. The packers have to pay them to get the shelf space. 

***instead of print so small you can hardly read!***
Yes again!! I was amazed recently when I looked for the labeling on a jar of honey. It was not only so small you almost needed a microscope, it was stamped in transparant letters on a clear label. You couldn't even SEE it unless the light was just right. Ya gotta admire the lengths they go, lol. 

There's a lot of problems out there for sure, will have to work on them tomorrow.
Good night,
Sheri


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

jigbee,
I went to national meetings every year for years. I got my fifteen year pin from the ABF last week.
I have donated to the causes.

I quit going around three years ago because I felt both organizations were asleep at the wheel!

I am going to the ABF in Austin. I went to Austin the last time the ABF met in Austin.

Maybe we can meet and talk. My articles both in ABJ & Bee Culture are done to wake beekeepers up. 

You can ask Joe Graham (editor ABJ) or Kim Flottum(editor BC) and both will tell you I try very very hard to get correct information for my articles. I double check my sources and if in doubt I do not use the information.

I have got no agenda other than to report what is going on in the industry. I certainly do not write for bee magazines for the money they pay. With the hours I invest it would figure out to minimum wage!

A high ranking member of the almond industry told me while researching an article last year.

"Whats wrong with the beekeeping industry is the industry lacks leadership"

Now I know ( first name basis) the leaders of both the ABF & AHPA and I can't say the person is far off. 

Large beekeepers have got their hearts in the right place but are far to busy to have the time to run the organizations like I think they need run in these crucial times.

When you have been around the bee business as long as I have you get a pretty clear picture of the industry.

Why have we got two beekeeping organizations? Both trying to hold convetions the same time to make beekeepers choose which to attend.

United we stand and divided we fall!


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

sheri sezs in regards to a recent agronomy school grad:
Maybe I am misunderstanding this.....if not, this is the ultimate in arrogance, or maybe just nievete.

tecumseh replies:
I think you most definitely hit the nail directly on the head sheri. I do believe this 'boy' is either ignorant as a stump or could reasonable sue his institution of higher learning for producing such a defective product.

mr harrison adds:
"Whats wrong with the beekeeping industry is the industry lacks leadership"

tecumseh replies:
I am sad to say mr harrison this has been true for more years than I care to count. the big guys seem to think they are insolated from the industries problems and the small concerns and hobbist have so little market clout that no politicial body is going to pay much attention to their concerns.

a few indicators of this lack of leadership are: an almond pollination contract written solely to enhance the position of the broker and growers with what seems to be NO input by beekeepers, sue bee (an owner controlled cooperative) which now import substantial product from foreign sources...

I guess one could exhaust oneself in the possible expansion of this list, but I think you get the idea???

Having heard "stories" from years back some of this likely 'payback' for less that ethical practice from beekeepers over the years.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

just a thought on hive stregth problems of last year. I have never worked my bees befor during almond pollination, even though it is only 70 miles to my orchards. I have one orchard that is very tight and the hives have to be left double stacked. Every year this set of bees would have about half of them coming out weaker and half stronger. I never researched the reason why. Last year with prices so high, I was there every week. The first week all my bees that were on the ground were perfect. Then I got to this orchard where they were double stacked. Upon inspecting a few top hives, I went into shock. No bees, 4 framers. 5 to 6 frames of brood and barely bees to cover them. I looked in the bottom hives of the stacks and they were over loaded with bees. I reversed llocations top for bottom and came back the next week. what I found was low bees in top hives and loaded in bottom. My conclusion is that those bees enter that hive at ground level all year. Sometimes it is 5 ft tall, but they enter at the ground. Could this same thing be happening with Migrating bees? Bees enter at ground level all year. Beek double stacks his pre graded perfect hives and loads them on a semi. Off they go to CA. When they get there if they are left double stacked for a few days or a week on the ground, are the bees in the top hives drifting to the bottom of the stack? Then beek takes his previously great hives into orchard and gets graded half good bees and half dinks. ???? This is just my observation. Many beeks say this does not happen and bees know how to sort out the new entrance problem. Any thoughts on this?


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

just a thought on hive stregth problems of last year. I have never worked my bees befor during almond pollination, even though it is only 70 miles to my orchards. I have one orchard that is very tight and the hives have to be left double stacked. Every year this set of bees would have about half of them coming out weaker and half stronger. I never researched the reason why. Last year with prices so high, I was there every week. The first week all my bees that were on the ground were perfect. Then I got to this orchard where they were double stacked. Upon inspecting a few top hives, I went into shock. No bees, 4 framers. 5 to 6 frames of brood and barely bees to cover them. I looked in the bottom hives of the stacks and they were over loaded with bees. I reversed llocations top for bottom and came back the next week. what I found was low bees in top hives and loaded in bottom. My conclusion is that those bees enter that hive at ground level all year. Sometimes it is 5 ft tall, but they enter at the ground. Could this same thing be happening with Migrating bees? Bees enter at ground level all year. Beek double stacks his pre graded perfect hives and loads them on a semi. Off they go to CA. When they get there if they are left double stacked for a few days or a week on the ground, are the bees in the top hives drifting to the bottom of the stack? Then beek takes his previously great hives into orchard and gets graded half good bees and half dinks. ???? This is just my observation. Many beeks say this does not happen and bees know how to sort out the new entrance problem. Any thoughts on this?


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I tried using Shnellgrove boards for swarm control last year. Very different situation than JigBee is talking about with different variables, but similar result. I put the old queen and a small amount of brood in the bottom with the entrance reversed, the rest of the brood and a queen cell in the top with the entrance in the original direction. At first it looked like all the field bees went in to the top box and the bottom was weak. Within three weeks the top box with the new queen was down to a couple pounds of bees and the bottom box was packed. Not enough numbers of hives and too many different variables to draw any conclusions, but if a big pollinator were to train half his bees to top enterances by using shims under the lid instead of an open bottom entrance, then make sure they were loaded with the top entrance hives in the number two position and stayed than way in the field it could provide some answers. Couldn't hurt and might save some otherwise lost money. If they were stacked four high the top tier of 2 could be reversed to keep the shims from throwing the stack out of ballance. Of course a long stay on the truck would cause a lot of confusion, and a broker wouldn't want to deal with the unloading and placing of hives that didn't have a standard loading pattern.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I shouldn't have been so quick with the Add button on that last post.

One of the drawbacks to anything as large scale as almond pollination is that the only way to keep it efficient is not to alter the little things. That's too bad because these are the types of situations where a little experimentation could provide really solid answers to a lot of questions with enough data to back up the answer. The science of making money and the science of looking for accurate answers have nothing in common except that they feed off each other. Thats a lot like some marriages I know of.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jigbee,
Interesting observation. I see many hives in holding yards in California double stacked waiting for almonds. After what you said not a good idea.

We always place each pallet on ground. Except a few hours before semi loading and then we do two rows of doubles and pull the semi in the middle.


One commercial beekeeper which always leaves his bees in double stacks in California does not run a brand but instead has a stenseled in black "cowboy riding a bucking bronc".

Does the list know his name?

I figured he double stacked to keep down stealing of frames and making loading and unloading faster.

The question of all the bees ending up in the lowest hives in migration has been discussed in beekeeping circles.

I can't say I have ever seen the problem but have not looked closely. Most say as far as in transit to California is concerned the cold weather keeps the bees in the hives.

A sure fire way to prove would have been to look at the hives of Ted Kertchman or Horace Bell after they had both sit for three days at the I40 check point.

Both loads were said to be in bad shape. Maybe partly because the top hives bees had went below. 
Interesting point jigbee.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Thanks for posting that.As Bob said ,double stacking is common in holding yards.I have seen a lot of drifting ,fighting and robbing after bloom in these yards.While double stacking is more efficient sometimes,now it looks like a bad idea if its to be done for very long.
As far as working the bees during the bloom,I kinda figure at that point its too late to change much,other than exchanging out some bad hives.Seems like every time I tried to do any actual bee work,I got run out by the spray rigs.But I do try to get down there to get a feel for whats going on.That and Blue Diamonds daily updates.
As for prices ,I know contracts are being signed for 145 for 8 framers.I heard one huge outtastater is offering field run for 125.The guy that told me this joked that field run meant "drop em in the field and run!"Haha.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Almonds promises to be interesting this year. I have seen a few contracts which said every hive had to grade 8 frames bees by the *growers graders*. Talk about a stacked deck against beekeepers. 

As said in an earlier post most contracts are writen by growers/brokers. 

Signing is just the first step.

Whole loads were refused (after placing in groves) last year and ordered removed due to grading by growers people.

Randy oliver has told me many hobby beekeepers are offering to grade for growers.

If you are "lucky" the grower will let you leave the red and orange taged hives in the grove (if an out of stater).

Lets do the math:
semi load of 450 placed at 145= 65250
Half rejected because not 8 frame ( and only say 7 frames by grading or less)225 - 32625
So the beekeeper receives 32625 gross
Figure trucking and expense at $28 for my area=12600.
65250 contract
- 32625 loss of fee due contract and you get 32625
-12600 and you get around 
20025 to beekeeper
Divide 450 hives into 20025 and you get 44.50 a hive to the beekeeper. Still not bad money but certainly not a gold mine! What if only a third graded 8 frames( 150) = 21750 fee
S&h - 12600 = 9150 to beekeeper 450 hives into 9150 = 20.33 a hive.
At 20.33 a hive the above beekeeper should have stayed home.

All those free bees left in grove are pollinating for free! 

Grower gets price gouging beekeepers! many used the above last year!

The above scenario I punched into the calc for many beekeepers last season.

I personally would not sign an 8 frame each hive contract. Like my friend Randy Oliver ( California beekeeper) says 8 frames of bees per hive are tough for even a California beekeeper to make.

Ask those beekeepers signing for 8 frames what happens to the hives which do not grade 8 frames? 

Not all growers will do the above but many did last year and more will this year. Be on your toes and read carefully before you sign the contract. All contracts should state what happens to hives which do not grade 8 frames!

If 10% do not grade 8 frames then legally the grower can break the contract! You have not kept up your end of the contract!

Almond pollination is a slipery slope to climb when asking top dollar for hives. Those hives better be able to grade!


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Here's my game plan and would appreciate any
constructive criticism, and reality checks.

I have never been in the almonds and plan on
going next season (2008) with 200 to 250 hives.

My wife and I are flying out this February to
visit my sister in the Sacramento area. She has
friends who run organic almond orchards.

I plan on meeting with them and proposing to
contract stipulating I can set up in the orchard
by the 2nd week of January to feed and get
them to build up.

My understanding is that California allows for
pesticide spraying up to Feb 1st and this is
the major reason for not getting in earlier
and thus needing holding yards.

Being organic there should be no reason not
to allow me into the orchard. Right??

Or do I still need to scout out a holding
yard??

While out there I would love to meet with
any and all of you out there pollinating
and pick your brains (and perhaps help out
for a day or two).


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

Sounds like a decent plan (not being experience almond pollination myself). However, you may want to check with them what 'organic' actually means to them. 'Organic' doesn't always mean 'no pesticides'. It may simply mean using approved organic practices and approved organic pesticides. These 'organic' treatment may still be toxic to bees so it's best to have an honest talk with them.

(For example: here is a list of approved 'organic' treatments for apples in Michigan: http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/organasp.htm 
I'm assuming a similar thing exists for almonds.)

-Tim


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

Some orchards flood their trees until 1 Feb also. How do you plan on building up the hives? Best Management practises call for hives of at least 8 frames of bees, leaving the dakotas in January wont get you to 8 frames by the 1st of Feb, and the growers need that for their crop insurance.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi Bruce
It is my opinion that this would be too late to expect them to build up much. If the queens did turn on it would be a month before the graders noticed a difference. It is better to send them into winter big and boost them early rather than trying to boost them just prior to pollination. 
Most people we know trying to stimulate/boost their bees are either done already, doin it now, or planning on doin it in the next week or so. These are folks, of course, from the northern tier who can't work on their bees at home, I am assuming you are in this catagory.
Another reason we send them out early is weather, so they don't sit in the snow bank dwindling until mid January, with the pallets freezing down. With the inspections so tight we want to pressure wash our pallets right before loading. Last year we had trouble getting trucks so some didn't go out until early December. We don't like to pay to ship Wisconsin dirt and snow out there too. 

As for spraying, I am not sure of this, so someone else chime if if you know better, but I don't think the spraying starts til after bloom, except for fungicide sometimes during bloom. It is more an issue of getting the hives out of the orchards after bloom so they can spray than of not putting them in til they are done.

Our (and a good many ) holding yards are actually right in the middle of the orchards now, they just aren't spread out yet. We were out there 2 weeks and saw no spraying, there was a lot of pruning going on.
250 hives can be stuck along the edge of the harvester roads once harvest is done so I don't see many growers having a problem with this.
Sheri


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanks for the advise!! This is so appreciated.

I can certainly get them out there earlier if
need be. Everything you say makes such good
sense.

As a total rookie I am flying by night. I hope
that the trip to Cal and visiting with growers
and beeks will yield valuable info, I'm sure
it will.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

If I had bees that were rejected because of size I would NOT leave them in the orchard. 
Get them out of there so they can fill all those spots with the thousands of extra hives that are laying around California bursting with bees.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Amen to that Nick.
If someone thinks they can reject a 6-7 frame hive and "do the beek the favor" of letting it sit on the pallet, they better think again. Growers should get what they pay for, nothing less, but certainly not more.
Sheri


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Sundance,

Just don't be a "fly by night" rookie.

Fusion


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

WOW, could a rookie get confused reading these posts. #1. My double stack observation was just that. An observation and not proven science, but could be a future research project. #2. Mentioned in a recent post. Orchard must have 2ea 8 frame hives per acre to insure Crop Insurance. Not true. Orchard needs 2ea hives per acre. No mention of strength. #3.Many So Cal beeks have long term contracts with growers for field run bees. That is usually 6 frame average. Some 10 and 8s. Some 4 and 6s. Price for this type of contract is around $125.00 Lots of cooperation with cotton locations added and variables like that. Grower may release 80% of the bees a week early so the So Cal beek can go south for citrus. There are still growers that just want a box of bees for cheap. I don't agree, but the customer is always right. Years past I placed all my dinks with this type grower.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

As far as contracts go I usually opt for an average frame count, a real mathematical average. For example, a random 4 way pallet could hypothetically have two 10s a 6 and a 7. Wouldn't this be an 8.25 average for this pallet? I will usually agree to not bring anything below a certain a minimum strength. I have never had any difficulties selling this to growers. Am I missing something here? I can't believe a grower would attempt to not pay for a perfectly good 7 and then not expect to pay more for a 10. A true mathematical average seems pretty fair to me. Make sure your contract is fair and binding. Do not agree to anything that will get you screwed!
JBJ


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

The standard we always agreed to was 4 frame minimum ,8 frame average figuring it exactly like JBJ.It does take a lot of juggling around some years to get the average right and its never perfect,but growers seem happy.Field run isnt a term I heard used up here till last year but it is probably what most have been doing all along.


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

As an outsider to almond pollination, it appears that the growers are upping the minimum. Demanding higher value instead of settling for the 8 frame average and a 4 frame min. The four frame minimum now appears to be an 8 frame minimum if they are turning down 6-7 frames of bees.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

An 8 frame average isnt easy to meet in Feb.At an 8 frame minimum there would never be enough hives to pollinate the almonds.There are all kinds of agreements regarding hive strength required.One had better know what one is getting into before the bees are delivered.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

I am sure the list has read my last spring 2006 almond pollination article in ABJ about what the beekeepers I spoke with considered unfair grading.

The term average was NEVER used by any of the beekeepers. in fact they complained that almonds should be like Blueberries in Maine in which the average system has been in play for a long time.

The beekeepers from my article reported *EVERY* hive was graded on its on merits. not an average of the frames on the pallet. The hives which did not grade had either a red or orange tag. None of the hives which had 8-10 frames added to the below average hives.
The hives which were red tagged were pulled from each pallet and returned to a holding yard for a broker fee.

I am sure many growers look at pollination different and I only spoke with around 20 beekeepers with bees in almonds last spring.

I think the article was in the March or April ABJ. A must read for those going to almonds for the first time or those using a NEW grower.

I personally went through around 150 of these rejects when they returned to Missouri. We split each one on their return. Strong!

Some were stronger than hives which did grade.

These were not my bees but one of the beekeepers in my article. The broker said the grower in question was grading what he considered 8 frames as 4. 

As said above be careful what you agree to provide! Why! Because if you come up short then you have not held up your end of the agreement and the grower can drop you at 125-145 a hive and go with the guy advertising hives at $80 TODAY in the Fresno Bee.

From what I hear many many hives are crashing coming out of parts of the Midwest. If so every hive should get placed at decent money. If what I am hearing is not correct then you better have a contract and if you sign you will bring 8 frames of bees in EACH box then 8 frames better be in those boxes .

One large broker is taking a fifty dollar non refundable deposit on every hive. He told me it was the only way he could protect himself from growers finding a way out of contracts to contract cheaper hives IF there was a glut of bees.

Joe Traynor was quoted in a California paper there wwould be plenty of hives this year. Randy Oliver called Joe and Joe said the paper missquoted him. 

The fun has already started!


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>I am sure the list has read my last spring 2006 almond pollination article in ABJ

I for one have not Bob. I've certainly heard about the article and seen excerpts. Is it available online?

George-


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

"The term average was NEVER used by any of the beekeepers."
Rob Harrison

Was this intentional, or a grievous omission?
JBJ


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

JBJ,
The word used was *minimum* of frames for *each* hive. Each hive was judged on its own merits. Hives could be combined to make grade. 

As I have shown in an earlier post combining 2 or 3 hives (with perfectly good queens) to grade and subtracting trucking to and from California for 2 or 3 greatly reduces your profit per hive. Not rocket science!

JBJ I enjoyed your article about the work involved in hand carrying your hives into almonds.
I am an "in your face kind of guy" which has upset many brokers & researchers over the years.

Please try to understand what I am about to write is in no way disrespectful of you or other sideline beekeepers.

Many beekeepers have not had the troubles others have had. Many have used the same beekeeper for the last couple decades and do not even raise a lid on their hives. Grower Taylor which posted earlier told me so over the phone.

If a member of beesource knows of a grower or beekeeper doing almonds which would like to share their story about problems or not having problems please PM their contact information. Phone number works best for me. I want all sides.

A big problem is the internet beekeepers do not even represent a percent of all beekeepers let alone a single percent of those pollinating almonds. Writing an article based on the internet lists alone does not make for an accurate story. I use real names in articles. Readers of ABJ would not buy names of "beekeeper Bill" or "grower George" as sources. 

I have had to ask for phone numbers to contact those brokers/growers/apiary inspectors and beekeepers to get a clear picture to write about.

I stick many times with the largest beekeepers doing almonds so I can get a better picture. Does not mean smaller beekeepers like JBJ do not count but only that they represent a smaller portion of the almond pollination pie.

None of the beekeepers from my last spring article I have spoke with move hives by hand. All used semi loads & loaders.
The largest ran 97,000 hives ( Bell Honey) and 85,000 hives (Adee honey) and the smallest a semi load ( several sideline combined).

I will do an example post of the kind of post brokers would like for me to do.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

News from California!

Load every hive you can and ship to California. Big shortage of bees! Prices might be close to a couple hundred dollars. get rich quick! Borrow the money, use a credit card or hock the house but get here as its a **** gold mine out here!

Nothing is said about grading, contracts, holding yards, feeding bees or border problems for those coming from areas of fireants or small hive beetle.

Jerry latner ( Dadant Florida) sent a thank you to me by way of a Florida beekeeper over my articles last spring.

It seems almond growers had paid for trips to California for Florida beekeepers to try and get the Florida beekeepers to bring bees. Of course they left out many small details which cost those beekeepers most of the profit from almonds.

Jerry said my articles were right on. 

George I sent you a pm.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

My experiences in almond pollination (500-800 hives -Sacramento Valley Only) is an extremely small part of the overall picture.And the situation in the Sacramento is not representative of the much larger San Juaquin to the south.
We are kinda like the small guy in the poker game in Randy Olivers article-watching the big players to see what they do.So overall we play a big role in pollinating,but a small role individually.Thats why the internet is helpful-we can make sure we dont get screwed.And the abj articles are good for the guys that dont know the internet exists(I met one northern beek w/5,000+ that has never owned a tv let alone a computer).Though I can see the logic in that...
All I can add is know who you are dealing with.When you find an honest broker or grower stick with them and do your best to deliver a good product.I dealt with a few of each over the years.2 fly by night brokers tried to burn me years ago but a lot of knocking on doors got my money.Those 2 are long gone from the business.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Loggermike has pretty well hit the nail on the head. There are not enough 8 frame min. hives in the U.S. in Feb. to even attempt to pollinate the Almond crop. I would venture to say that most almonds that have been set in the last 30 years were pollinated by bees that came from a 6 frame average hive or less. If you find someone wether it is a grower or broker that you can trust stick with them.

Rob please don't take this the wrong way but how many years have you sent bees to the almonds? If you could post the phone # for the $80 hives I would like to have it. I have not heard of anyone renting bees for less than $125 and I have spoke with a lot of guys representing large numbers of hives.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

If I was a grower I would be plenty suspicious of the $80 hives.Unless the beeks business model is to undercut his way into some contracts with the hope of makeing it back in the future with higher prices(kind of like the phony Chinese government front organizations that export honey to the US).
Or a grower trick?

[ December 07, 2006, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: loggermike ]


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

I suppose size is relative. Pollination makes or breaks our operation so it seems huge for us. We brought about 600 (not all were placed) last year (2006) and I have contracts in hand with deposits for 560 so far this year (2007). The days of hand loading are definitely gone. The year I wrote that article(2005)was the last for hand loading for us and we got $100 a hive, pretty good for that year. Both of our contracts this year (2007)are happy clients from last year (2006) and they had no problem using an "average" frame count with a 4 or 5 frame minimum. I think a wise beek would make sure the terms of the contract are favorable and manageable. If one is not getting paid by the individual frame, then an average seems like a fair compromise. I suppose a beeks ability to dictate the terms depend on overall demand and individual sales ability. 
JBJ

[ December 07, 2006, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: JBJ ]


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Right.If supply is short, the excessive scrutinizing will disappear in a hurry and the almonds will still get pollinated just fine.I hope most growers understand the industry problems and know we had to have some big price increases just to survive.On the other hand,I can understand that they just want to make sure they dont take a shellacking.

[ December 07, 2006, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: loggermike ]


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

I agree with the things being said. 

I do not have a crystal ball and have no way of knowing what February 1st will bring.

Early signs are many beekeepers which got burned last year are dropping out this year. Several Have said almond growers need a year without enough bees to get their mind right.

I was told this week an ad was being ran in the Fresno Bee for 2,000 hives at 80 each. Can one of you California guys confirm. A California person was the source of my information.

Training growers to raise standards for pollination by a certain broker does not do the beekeeper a favor in my opinion. It makes for a "grass is greener on the other side of the fence scenario". One beekeepers bees are better than anothers. He is also setting a standard too high for many beekeepers to make.

In the old days if a grower had bees he was satisfied and only did not want to pay for deadouts. 

Only a real dumb ass would send all his hives to almonds instead of only sending his best hives. I would never send a hive I thought would not do the job. 

The bee hive is a complicated society and its really hard to say (especially with brood present) that one hive will pollinate better than another. Grading is crude at best.

Field run bees did the job for many years. Were cheap. Price wars happened last year. Grading was stepped up and according to many will be stepped up further this year! One grader said he could make big money grading bees for a certain person. Hmmm.

The growers I have talked to are not interested in paying for 8-10 frames bees. They only want a strong hive at the lowest price. Which is why many are breaking contracts. They are not buying what certain brokers are trying to sell. Many want to pay pollination fees after the crop is harvested and based on selling price for the almonds and if the blooms froze giving a small crop. They were NEVER worried about those things in the old days. If things go above average then they pay the beekeeper a fee over say $125. If almonds drop to a buck a pound then the beekeeper fee is adjusted.

I really don't know what the answer is but only the current standoff between growers and beekeepers needs common ground.

About ten years ago I was called to look at a semi load of bees in Apples. The bees came out of Texas. The grower said there was not much flight at the entrance and very little pollination going on. I popped lid after lid and each hive was covering around 7 -8 frames of bees and six frames of brood of various ages. Plenty of pollen and honey. The bees were in singles.
I was at the growers most of the day. Still not a lot of activity. Those hives would grade high in almonds. I still am not sure what the problem was but we brought in 350 of our hives to solve the growers problem. Our hives had less brood,hardly any pollen and maybe two frames of honey. They rushed from the hives when they found those apple blooms.
The beekeeper from Texas lost the account and we got the account the next year. I only tell the story to point out two things.
1. you can't judge if a hive will pollinate by a standard.
2. ONE year of bringing hives the grower is not thrilled with can cost you the contract.

Joe Traynor said last spring there would be a severe shortage of bees in 2007! I sure hope he is right for the beekeepers sake!

Those growers which rented hives from the large beekeepers for $70 dollars last year have reported the bees were excellent. Price wars!
Those beekeepers philosphy is simple. Capture the best almond contracts and then start the price back up ( exactly like Walmart does to mom & pop businesses when the move into a new territory).

What are others hearing about this year in almonds. I have heard many beekeepers have placed hives at last years prices and some around 125. I have not heard of any 145 and up from the midwest yet but early in season.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Bob:

Why the gold rush mentality all of a sudden?
Are many hives crashing? Are beekeepers staying home, to try and "teach a lesson" to the almond growers? 

Jean-Marc


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

It is remarkable that there is no organization
that is formed to support and represent the
beekeeper/pollinators.

To me this is the single most important move
pollinators could make.

A nominal "per hive" fee could be assessed to
fund the organization.

I nominate Bob Harrison for president of this
organization. POA (Pollinators of America) would
have a major impact on these very issues that
get mashed over, and over, with no visible
progress being made.

**Paid for by the Bob Harrison for President
of POA committee.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

I checked the Fresno Bee ads on the computer yesterday and there were no ads for bees. The Modesto Bee had 3 ads but no prices posted. I also talked to a man in CA that speaks to lots of beekeepers because of his job. He felt that there would be a shortage of bees but hoped it wouldn't be to severe. My dad has been down there the last several days but I haven't got to talk to him much to see what he has found.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

"It is remarkable that there is no organization
that is formed to support and represent the
beekeeper/pollinators."

Sundance

Forming a "Union" of BKs would bee like any other they would NEVER stick together.


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