# A Vertical 'Gallup' (300x300)



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hive Swap tomorrow ...

Beginning tomorrow, the weather forecast is for a 2 day heatwave - so - I'm taking advantage of this to xfer bees from a horizontal 'Gallup Hive' to it's vertical equivalent: which is - for all intents and purposes - a Warre stack but without the Warre doctrine. Don't know yet how many boxes will be in that stack - much depends on what I find happening inside the Gallup Hive. This is the 24" Gallup Hive (in white):










This is what the top box might look like tomorrow - depending on what I find. Two pre-drawn frames are in position 2 & 4 (numbering from right to left) with a 35mm-spaced frame between them which should then be drawn-out as drone-comb. All the other frames are spaced at 32mm, so should be drawn-out as worker.










I'm indebted to Greg and the Ukrainian links for the tip to use sticks across the frame to provide an overhead crawl-space. I've added a plywood 'doughnut' to provide a feed-hole.










And with the hole covered (and a small steel offcut weighting the cover down).










A feeder shell plus insulation above that, with a telescopic cover on top - that should be sufficient.

Will keep you posted.
LJ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

That was yesterday. Today the weather was glorious - ideal for a box-swap, even though it's still only March. So, here's what resulted: sorry about my cr#p camera - so much white tends to overload the automatic exposure ... but, there are 3 nine-inch boxes there below the feeder shell. The temporary bottom 'slot' entrance isn't that clear, so for the photograph I stuffed a leaflet into it, held in place by a screwdriver. I've also left the top entrance of the bottom box open, so that the entrances are more-or-less as they were before the box-swap.










The box-swap itself was extraordinary. I pride myself on having gentle, well-behaved bees, but these were in a league of their own. And so *yes*, I'm most certainly going to breed from this lovely lady, just as soon as drones come on-stream. If only these characteristics could be reliably passed-on to her daughters and grand-daughters ...

Well, we can all dream. 
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A beauty.
Waiting for more.
Would love to share my own vertical experiments this summer with my new "revolutionary" frame - fingers crossed!
The "revolutionary" frame proto-type is pictured (as compared to the conventional frame and the deep frame).


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

'morning Greg - nice job - that looks very promising ! Very best of luck with this new system.

Forgot to mention that my plan is to manage this experimental CVH stack in much the same way as the 'Ukrainian 6-frame guy' - i.e. build up to 2 boxes of brood, then reduce to one, keeping the Queen down below a QX (not yet made). Meanwhile, I'll modify the now empty horizontal Gallup Hive based on this winter's experience and start another colony in that.

BTW - dunno for sure if it has any relevance for the 300x300 format, but I noticed something odd yesterday in one of my 5-over-5 National nuc stacks. I've seen this a few times before, and have been calling it a 'side-by-side' brood nest:








Such a layout would make logical sense if the combs had been run 'cold way', with the brood near the entrance and stores towards the back of the box - but I've always run my hives 'warm way' ... so could this be the bees trying to tell me that landscape format brood combs really ought to be narrower and deeper - i.e. in portrait format ?

I'll shortly be trialling a hive with 24-inch frames run lengthwise - i.e. along the length of the box, with an entrance in the short end 'cold way' - as Quinby and Langstroth once did - I'll be expecting the above comb layout to result under* those* particular circumstances.
'best
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> so could this be the bees trying to tell me that landscape format brood combs really ought to be narrower and deeper - i.e. in portrait format ?


My immediate hunch, LJ, is that the colony maybe not strong enough (so that they have to choose only a portion of the frame)?



> I'll shortly be trialling a hive with 24-inch frames run lengthwise -........... I'll be expecting the above comb layout to result under* those* particular circumstances.


Agreed.
Because I observe my bees managed in both ways and the "hybrid way" too - this is what I would expect.

I remember for a fact people complaining of similar brood format cases happening in unrestricted honey supers behind the "cold way" upper entrances - the queen would go up and "spoil" all the honey frames by setting the brood near the entrance. At least running the "warm way" would only "spoil" few (not ALL) frames.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

LJ, my brood frames look like that coming out of winter, well, in February anyway. "Warm way" vs "Cold way" is not the issue I see, it is more along the lines of "which side of the hive gets the most sun?" The hives on the east rows face west so the sun hits the side of the box where the entrance is. That is where I find the brood nest starting. Of course now they are filling the entire frames and those stores are long gone.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> "Warm way" vs "Cold way" is not the issue I see, it is more along the lines of "which side of the hive gets the most sun?"


But there is.
With the "cold way" you will have most all frames touched by the brood (except the side frames maybe).
With the "warm way" you will have the brood on distinct frames only (not the covering front frame and not the storage back frames.
The larger the cavity, the more pronounced the difference is.
If you want the best control over the frame usage - the "warm way" is the way to go.
So, indeed, there is more than one practical application to this.
Running unrestricted stack, for example, the "warm way" gives you much better honey frame/brood frame differentiation and easier harvest.
The "warm way" gives you a clear way to rotate older frame out of the usage: 
- brood usage --> honey usage --> harvest (optionally crush/strain/melt if too old)


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Not much traffic on this sub-forum lately, so a bit of an update ...

No sooner had I xferred that colony from a horizontal into the equivalent vertical 3-box set-up, than the weather took a dive and Winter here returned with a vengeance. But - the forecasters saw this coming, and luckily there was a single warm day ahead of the weather front during which I reduced to stack to 2 boxes (one brood, one stores), and added extra insulation inside the feeder shell. Since then we've had more-or-less continuous overnight sub-zeros, and 'too cold to fly' daytime temperatures. Yesterday was an exception, and all colonies appear to have survived ok - whether they've lost any brood or not will become clear later ...

Ok - so now for a bit of fun. You've heard of Swiss Cheese ? How about Swiss Bees ? LOL










A couple of years ago I tried using some smaller frames in five-frame mating-nuc boxes by making them to fit cross-wise rather than length-wise, but found that the bees didn't like them very much and for some strange reason started making holes in them - the above being two extreme examples. I couldn't spot any obvious reason for the holes, such as cutting-out of wax-moths or dried pollen, but they clearly weren't happy with that size of frame, so I reverted to using nucs with full-sized frames instead, with just fewer of them in each box (plus dummies, of course).

Meanwhile, I'd 'discovered' the Gallup-sized frames which I'm currently working with, and found that - by a superb example of serendipity - if I were to cut one lug off each of those smaller frames and then glue them together in pairs, the result was a millimetrically identical frame to that of the Gallup Frame. Pity about the bl##dy great post right in the centre - but at least it was some drawn comb for a colony to be getting on with.

Anyway, right now I'm in the process of removing the central 'post' on about twenty of these 'frame-pairs' thusly:



















And so I'll now be leaving the bees to finish the job. Needless to say, when the resulting combs are eventually due for replacement, those frames will be finding their way onto the bonfire. They've been useful, but there ain't nothing there worth keeping, or to brag about. 
'best,
LJ


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Greg, I see your point but I question whether having all brood on certain frames or having a combination is best during the spring. Seems like the bees could starve on brood if all the stores were in the back room so to speak. Anyone know if the bees show a preference in the wild?


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

If we accept the Warre/ Delon 'Climatestable' model as being nearer to a wild nest than more conventional modern-day beehives, then the warm-way/ cold-way issue no longer applies, because the bees then approach the comb array, not from the side, but from below.

As we know, the bees start at the top and work their way down, back-filling as they go the now empty brood combs with nectar which duly becomes honey. At the end of the season, this 'migration' is reversed, with the bees slowly ascending, and consuming the stored honey as they rise. Come Spring, this sequence is repeated. In this way, there will always be stores directly *above* the brood-nest - at least, that is my understanding of the process.

Having said that, for some reason an image comes into my mind from the German Skep-Apiary videos, where honey-comb was cut from the *bottom* of the combs. But then, those skeps had their entrances near the top, so honey would have been stored furthest from those top entrances.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> Greg, I see your point but I question whether having all brood on certain frames or having a combination is best during the spring. Seems like the bees could starve on brood if all the stores were in the back room so to speak. Anyone know if the bees show a preference in the wild?


With vertical setup/warm way in cold regions, bees don't have to cross onto cold combs (which they will avoid at all cost).
But with horizontal setup/shallow frame/warm way this is a common problem.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> Greg, I see your point but I question whether having all brood on certain frames or having a combination is best during the spring. Seems like the bees could starve on brood if all the stores were in the back room so to speak. Anyone know if the bees show a preference in the wild?


In the vertical setup, the entire nest is naturally migrated into the top of the hive in spring - unlike in a horizontal setup (unless properly restricted) there is not a worry of starvation - it is the warmest part of the hive.

Here is the schematic pic how it works - the warm way case doesn't have many frames that have both brood AND honey; it is rather mostly brood OR honey (given small enough frames, not big frames). But small enough frames are beneficial.

....Running unrestricted stack, for example, the "warm way" gives you much better honey frame/brood frame differentiation and easier harvest. ...........

This is the main reason I am pursuing the compact verticals setup in warm way - so that I can pull a frame of early honey as early as April/May - because there is built-in separation of brood and honey. Warm way/small frame/vertical setup is the way to go when pursuing small batches of specialty honeys (one of my goals).

With the cold way you will have brood and honey mixed on the same frame more commonly - harder to pull honey at any time at your will.
Harder to isolate few frames with specific honey you are after - say, dandelion honey.
Large frames managed the cold way it is the worst case - each frame has it all brood and honey - no isolation to speak of.

During the harvest/pre-winter setup again it will be mostly full frames/empty frames (vs. full frames/half-empty frames/empty frames with the cold way)


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Ah, I was forgetting the vertical aspect of the whole equation. Duh!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Having said that, for some reason an image comes into my mind from the German Skep-Apiary videos, where honey-comb was cut from the *bottom* of the combs. But then, those skeps had their* entrances near the top, so honey would have been stored furthest from those top entrances.*
> LJ


Exactly.
After playing with the combination of entrances, I now concluded that in late summer/fall I enforce the bottom entrance.
This is how you enforce the "honey above/brood&bees below" setup.

The entrance too high creates problems with honey storage configured inconveniently for the modern keeper (unless you run the true skeps, of course).
With the skeps you, in fact, prefer the honey being in the bottom quarters (the same logic works for true vertical log hives - also honey harvested by cutting at the bottom).


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Bit of a 'not very exciting' update ...

The weather's been lousy for the last few days, so I've been catching-up with a few outstanding bits & pieces. I've made enough boxes for the time being, and have recently made two insulated feeder shells, and still have two roofs left over from my previous flirtation with the Warre system - so all I'm really short of right now is Crown Boards (inner covers) and some form of Queen Excluder.

So - I made some boards from two pieces of 3-4mm reclaimed plywood which had developed a slight curve to it - by gluing them back-to-back, ensuring that the opposing grains were at 90 degrees to each other - and sandwiching them between two sheets of thick glass, with four 56lb weights placed on top. This has resulted in some dead flat plywood boards, two of which were made into Crown Boards thusly:










... with one made into a QX:










And here's how the bees will see it - when viewed from above (same as viewed from below, of course):










I've used this QX technique before without any problems, but if it should fail for any reason, then I'll keep you guys posted accordingly.

Onwards and upwards ... 
LJ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Not much traffic on this sub-forum of late - so just a quick mention of this particular beehive 'design' ...

One of the features I adopted when building these 300x300 boxes was to provide each of them with a 22mm entrance hole near the top, and slanting slightly downwards to help prevent the ingress of rain. This has turned out to be a very good idea - one which I picked up from Slovenia:










The photos which follow are of a second 'Warre-style' 300x300 stack which I set up in early June, when a swarm (one of several this year) came into the yard - and which initially chose an empty 5-frame 14x12 box. However, I quickly realised that a swarm would be ideal for repairing and drawing-out comb, and so I hastily set-up a 300x300 stack and transferred the swarm into it before they became too settled.

It was initially a two box stack, with a 225mm box on top housing partially pre-drawn combs which needed repair. On the bottom was a deeper box made from a 225mm box with a 70mm shim below it, housing nine bare 11.25" Gallup frames. These boxes were (and still are) sitting on an old Warre 'full-width slot entrance' bottom board - as I've nothing else suitable right now.

During the first week of July I noticed significant entrance activity and, just in case this might be robbing, I installed wide-headed tacks onto the fronts of some spare 300x300 boxes to take the magnetically-attached anti-robbing screens I use elsewhere - but, upon a later and much closer inspection this 'robbing' turned out to be a false alarm.
However, having already modified those boxes I decided to proceed with a box-swap anyway, and in the process discovered that this colony had exploded in size, and was in urgent need of more space - and so now it's housed in three boxes, and will probably need a fourth very soon.

This was a shot taken yesterday, at around noon on the first day of our current heat-wave:










There's not even the remotest suggestion of any over-heating (such as bearding), which I put down to the spread of entrances present. It may not be all that obvious, but there's a full-width slot at the very bottom (which I've yet to see used by even a single bee). with three holes higher up. The topmost hole is used by the lion's share of the traffic, the middle hole much less, with just the occasional bee using the bottom hole - and this, despite all combs now being fully drawn and occupied. As a confirmed 'bottom-entrance' beekeeper, I may have to re-examine my prejudice if this trend continues ...

FWIW - this is how the anti-robbing screens will be fitted - upside-down. I'm assuming (hoping) that orientation will still work ok. They'll be fitted after the current heatwave has ended - hopefully by the first of August, when our 'robbing season' normally starts.










I think that's about all, except to say that I'd forgotten just how quickly colonies can build up in these narrow chimney-stacks - so it looks like I'll be making a lot more boxes and frames during the weeks to come. 

LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Not much traffic on this sub-forum of late - so just a quick mention of this particular beehive 'design' ...


My 300x300 is doing well.
I keep it in two boxes (and feeding from within the rest of the stack - very convenient).
Granted it was a shook swarm with nothing by a queen and a dump of bees - feeding them like pigs using all kinds of scraps I accumulated over the winter.
They are building up really well.
Maybe next time I will take few inside photos.


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## sparkyApis (Apr 9, 2021)

little_john said:


> with one made into a QX:


LJ, what did you use as a "sieve" in these queen excluders and are they living up to expectations?
Sel.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hello Sel

This type of QX doesn't have a sieve/grill - they work on an entirely different principle. I'm sure a picture would help here, so I've just pulled a QX from an unoccupied (shallow) Long Hive:










I've added a blue line to show the approximate position of the hive floor.

These truncated division (or follower) boards work by presenting the Queen with a large expanse of solid woodwork which she won't normally cross, and so retreats back onto the wax combs from where she came, and continues her search there for empty cells within which to lay. A substantial gap at the bottom enables all other bees (and queen pheromone) to readily pass across the barrier - all my Long Hives now have similar boards installed. They're particularly useful for clearing frames of any partial contents, before placing them into store - just insert on the 'wrong' side of the board and keep an eye on them there. Then pull 'em when cleared. 

This QX technique is a feature of the 'Die Bienenkiste' Hive, where a truncated board is used to permanently divide the stores area from the brood chamber. It was from that hive design that I first got the idea.

I then discovered from the Dave Cushman site that the same technique has been used in vertical hives: Queen Excluder Types Used In Bee Hives (last graphic but one)
Although I wouldn't rely on this type of QX to keep two Queens apart, I much prefer them for general use, as drones can pass across them as well as workers.

In all respects both Warre-style hives have exceeded expectations - I had one hive configured in horizontal mode (A Temporary Horizontal Warre ...) for a while, but that has since been re-configured as a vertical stack for Winter.

During this season the 'management' of both hives has been somewhat sloppy due to the need to get frames of two different depths drawn-out - but this has now been done, and during next season my intention is to run both hives as 'non-swarmers' (well, we can all dream) by employing the same basic brood size control technique as used with the 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator set-up which Greg kindly posted about within this sub-forum.
'best,
LJ

PS - knew there was something else ...
I'm not at all impressed with the 'upside-down' anti-robbing screens - sure, the bees are using them ok, but there's no obvious way I can see of reducing the effective entrance 'slot' if severe robbing should ever break out. 'twas easy the right way up, as a simple batten could then be used as a closure. During the Winter I'll knock-up some screens with side entrances, and see if they're viable.


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## sparkyApis (Apr 9, 2021)

Thanks LJ. I was familiar with the follower board idea, in fact I have built a couple of those for my long hive, but I had missed, or more likely not registered, the same idea in a vertical setup on Cushman's pages. Reminds me, I should post some pictures of mine over on that thread.

At the risk of trying to teach granny to suck eggs, how about extending the magnet and tack idea to attach restrictors to your robbing screens?
Sel.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hi Sel - sincere apologises for that lesson in sucking eggs  However, no doubt there'll be others reading through this stuff who won't be so familiar with the principles ... so maybe my 'sucking-eggs 101' won't have been a totally wasted exercise after all.

Your idea is certainly a possibility - one of the problems I'm* always* faced with is my habit of making things complicated. The ability to keep things really simple always seems to elude me - that's one of the reasons I really appreciate viewing the videos which Greg trawls-up from Russian and Ukrainian websites from time to time. Seems those guys have got 'simplicity' running through their veins. Perhaps it's a cultural skill developed from historical necessity ?
'best,
LJ


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## sparkyApis (Apr 9, 2021)

LJ, It is I should apologise to you. Your posts have been seriously interesting and I for one appreciate the information you provide because I don't have the background. 

My granny comment was directed at me because I was proposing something you had almost certainly thought of but I put it out there just in case. Please, keep educating us all.

Sel.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> With vertical setup/warm way in cold regions, bees don't have to cross onto cold combs (which they will avoid at all cost).
> But with horizontal setup/shallow frame/warm way this is a common problem.
> View attachment 62902


I realize this is an older thread, But I'LL disagree with you @GregB on the unlevel field of Insulation.
you would be correct in a thin walled hive in the cold, with long frames tops touching.
I have the exact "long Lang" double deep to "be similar to the longer framer" described here.
With well insulated hives AND a top way and mid way thru the frames the bees go fine sideways.
This is where the double deep long Lang with top space does very well and does not have the issue you offer.
long frames top bars touching, I can see may not work.
so the vector "insulation" can and does change some of the preconceived notions.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> I realize this is an older thread, But I'LL disagree with you @GregB on the unlevel field of Insulation.
> you would be correct in a thin walled hive in the cold, with long frames tops touching.


My top bars are no longer touching, GG - I have long since discontinued that.
However - agree - my hives are relatively cold (compared to your special "GG long lang").

I will say, however, my hives very much match the mainstream hives people have around me (at the level of insulation).
At this level, cross-comb crossing is pretty much non-existent - even though I have full support for the bees to do so - they will not cross onto solid cold honey during the coldest mid-winter (where it may matter the most).


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> My top bars are no longer touching, GG - I have long since discontinued that.
> However - agree - my hives are relatively cold (compared to your special "GG long lang").
> 
> I will say, however, my hives very much match the mainstream hives people have around me (at the level of insulation).
> At this level, cross-comb crossing is pretty much non-existent - even though I have full support for the bees to do so - they will not cross onto solid cold honey during the coldest mid-winter (where it may matter the most).


good the space over the top can be a life saver for the bees in winter. As well can also feed on top if the lid has space.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> good the space over the top can be a life saver for the bees in winter. As well can also feed on top if the lid has space.
> 
> GG


Well, yes - that was always my point - MUST have the utility space over the frames and MUST be able to allow the bees into it for any old reason.
The top feeding is #1 thing - why I ditched that Sharashkin design after my first winter - that was nothing but continuous grief (however romantic is the "never-feed" idea). 

Indeed, IF your hive is warm enough, the utility space over the top bars becomes very useful for crossing the frames to access unused honey stores.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> Well, yes - that was always my point - MUST have the utility space over the frames and MUST be able to allow the bees into it for any old reason.
> The top feeding is #1 thing - why I ditched that Sharashkin design after my first winter - that was nothing but continuous grief (however romantic is the "never-feed" idea).
> 
> Indeed, IF your hive is warm enough, the utility space over the top bars becomes very useful for crossing the frames to access unused honey stores.
> ...


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

GregB said:


> With vertical setup/warm way in cold regions, bees don't have to cross onto cold combs (which they will avoid at all cost).
> But with horizontal setup/shallow frame/warm way this is a common problem.
> View attachment 62902


Would their honey be that cold if you had an insulated hive? If the hive is well insulated the heat from the colony will warm the interior and it's contents.
There are a bazillion wild colonies living in the equivalent of a horizontal, by natural choice.
I have observed on cut-outs, Wild Vertical hives are often not insulated, But many of the Wild horizontal hives are insulated or separated from outside temps.
A lot of this is the result of the location, but the bees have many locations available and yet will choose a horizontal cavity.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JustBees said:


> Would their honey be that cold if you had an insulated hive? If the hive is well insulated the heat from the colony will warm the interior and it's contents.
> There are a bazillion wild colonies living in the equivalent of a horizontal, by natural choice.
> I have observed on cut-outs, Wild Vertical hives are often not insulated, But many of the Wild horizontal hives are insulated or separated from outside temps.
> A lot of this is the result of the location, but the bees have many locations available and yet will choose a horizontal cavity.


I am yet to see some serious enough "cut-out" guy to actually track and report the actual number of vertical vs. horizontal cut outs. Until then - this talk is meaningless.

One can not assume anything about "bazillion wild colonies" one way or the other (ESPECIALLY in human populated areas where the majority of the available cavities are either vertical wall spaces or horizontal under-floor spaces).

IF I was a cut-out guy, I'd keep the numbers because it is useful and easy to collect and maintain statistic.
But no serious enough cut-out people are available it seems.
Could be a very useful database of the cut-outs.

Speaking of many, if not most, horizontal under-floor spaces - they are rather very cozy (especially in occupied houses).


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## BeeRussell (9 mo ago)

little_john said:


> Hive Swap tomorrow ...
> 
> Beginning tomorrow, the weather forecast is for a 2 day heatwave - so - I'm taking advantage of this to xfer bees from a horizontal 'Gallup Hive' to it's vertical equivalent: which is - for all intents and purposes - a Warre stack but without the Warre doctrine. Don't know yet how many boxes will be in that stack - much depends on what I find happening inside the Gallup Hive. This is the 24" Gallup Hive (in white):
> 
> ...


For some reason i can't see your pics. ???


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