# Kelleys now sells foundationless frames



## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

I saw this on Bee-L and thought folks here might be interested.

https://products.kelleybees.com/wtkprod/detail.aspx?item=1182

I've always wanted to try foundationless if for no other reason to save the cost and time to install wax foundation, but I am concerned about stability when moving hives -- especially in the heat of summer.

Can you wire an empty frame and have the bees build comb over it?


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

Scratch that I saw it in the organic beekeepers forum -- not Bee-L.

And I found the answer to my own question. I knew I should have looked here first.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm


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## SwedeBee1970 (Oct 26, 2008)

That's pretty neat. Are the eyelets on the sides for wires ?


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## sylus p (Mar 16, 2008)

They're also the only ones selling sweet clover seed (that I know of), for all you guerilla planters out there!!!


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

SwedeBee1970 said:


> That's pretty neat. Are the eyelets on the sides for wires ?


Yes, the brass eyelets are installed in the frame ends so the wire doesn't cut into the wood and loosen. Some folks use staples at the holes for the same purpose. You don't want the wire to loosen and sag.


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## Randall Clark (Oct 29, 2009)

I am wanting to use foundationless frames by either putting a thin slat in my grooved frames at the top, or a 1 inch piece of wax foundation all the way across just to get the process started.

What would be wrong with taking nylon fishing line and making an X on the frames? Will the bees make comb and bury the fishing line in it? Sounds like it would give more support for extracting honey.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

>"What would be wrong with taking nylon fishing line and making an X on the frames? Will the bees make comb and bury the fishing line in it? Sounds like it would give more support for extracting honey."

I saw Fatbeeman's video about installing foundation into frames with fishing line and thought the same thing about using it in foundationless frames.

I'm planning to try it this spring unless someone has had bad experiences doing so.

Wayne


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've never understood the obsession with wiring... but you can if you like. It gets in the way if you want to make it into cut comb. It gets in the way for the bees, but they will incorporate it into the comb. You can extract fine without it.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

But you can't put them on a truck and move them across say, 5 states for a year without something falling down, new comb is always way too soft. 
(Says my old mentor. He should know, he ran 300 gums before going to boxes.)


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## Randall Clark (Oct 29, 2009)

Michael Bush:
I know you use Medium boxes, but have you had any support problems with a foundationless deep frame that are not cross wired? That was my concern.. I should have made it more clear that I was not referring to supers.
Thanks for the advice, as I am learning a lot from your web page. I REALLY like the method of letting the bees make their own comb from start to finish and the "no chemical" approach to beekeeping. Seems like a lot more natural and healthy approach.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I know you use Medium boxes, but have you had any support problems with a foundationless deep frame that are not cross wired? 

I am not using deeps, but I know several people who are using them with no wires and no problems. The late Charles Martin Simon was doing deeps with no foundation and no wires, as is Dean, on here.


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## 67630 (Jul 17, 2008)

I am using deeps foundationless and without wires. No problems. Not on kelley frames just a regular wedge frame with wedge turned. I got pictures, not sure how to post them though.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

The thickness of the honey you extract will also determine if your unwired frames will hold up to extracting. The west coast has some very thick honeys, I lose new wired foundation comb in the radial extractor every year. The combs that don't blow out often have honey that did not spin out because it is so thick. In the old days they used the Superior Lifetime tangential extractors out here for the thick honey problem. With new combs I spin real slow for a few minutes to get some of the honey out before cranking up the speed.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Hotroom? Variable speed extractors?


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Michael...Hard to extract honey not wired.....after a rew yrs. you canbut you will tear up lots of comb Two How do you keep it straight....deep will bow in the middle causing you to mash bees and make frame hard to remove. Like above IF you move bees you will get comb breakage. You can usually get by withoug cross wiring shallows of it si wired foundation.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

i feel like i post this about every two weeks....

we use deeps, mostly unwired foundationless. we extract them fine (use a tangential, which is probably a help, as the comb is supported by the basket). comb is generally straight, and NEVER has the buckled foundation with shallow cells on one side and deep ones opposite.

deknow


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## SwedeBee1970 (Oct 26, 2008)

Save a copy of the link to this thread for future use. Then post the link as needed.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

deknow said:


> i feel like i post this about every two weeks....


Me too....

I've done a number of hives foundationless. I've had some shallow and medium foundationless frames blow out. I've had some that didn't. I wire them now as a precaution.

Sometimes the girls draw the deeps in a less than perfect fashion (happens with foundation too) and when you try to remove the frame, especially with new comb....it can be destructive.

What's the harm in adding a couple of reinforcing wires? It takes all of 30 seconds to add the wire and I have yet to see any harm.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

beemandan said:


> What's the harm in adding a couple of reinforcing wires? It takes all of 30 seconds to add the wire and I have yet to see any harm.


i don't think there is any harm in wiring the frames...i've just never done it with foundationless, and i have yet to have the problems that i'm told i'm supposed to have.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

FWIW, this is how we do our foundationless frames:

http://thecompleteidiotsguidetobeek...s-frames-how-to&catid=73:beekeeping&Itemid=92

deknow


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

deknow, like they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks for the post! Very encouraging!


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

I'm with the others. No problems with foundationless. And moving them around goes just fine. I have found foundationless comb to be as tough as nails in most cases. Just be sure that it's attached well enough to the frames. Finished in other words.

As far as fishing line goes. I've used it in the past and stopped. It rots out within a year or the bees will chew it out. Not worth the trouble in my opinion.


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## Dale Hodges (Jul 13, 2007)

Move a load of splits(all white wax)across one set of railroad tracks, you'll understand the need for wires.


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## Farmsteader (Mar 12, 2010)

Thanks for uploading that link to your site, very helpful , Aj and denise



deknow said:


> FWIW, this is how we do our foundationless frames:
> 
> http://thecompleteidiotsguidetobeek...s-frames-how-to&catid=73:beekeeping&Itemid=92
> 
> deknow


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

I have tried pop-sickle sticks AND triangles in my tbh and I find the pop-sickle sticks to be extremely weak in comparison. imho.


Sam.


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## hillhousehoney (Oct 7, 2008)

Contacted Kelley's about getting 100 of the medium frames with the wedge. The price of $68.00 for the 100 was not bad, but the shipping was $54.00.  I think I will be making my own. Just a heads up.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

hillhousehoney said:


> Contacted Kelley's about getting 100 of the medium frames with the wedge. The price of $68.00 for the 100 was not bad, but the shipping was $54.00.  I think I will be making my own. Just a heads up.


You might find a source of frames closer to home, the wedge style, just pop the wedge out, turn it sideways, nail it in. That's what i did for my foundationless guides. Or you may discover buying from Kelley's and paying the freight is much easier, and possibly cheaper, than making your own frames.


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## Bsupplier (Dec 23, 2008)

Have you guys tried adding a couple of #64 rubberbands-1/4" wide brown ones? In my unwired mediums I add 1 per side after uncapping about 1/3 of the way in on each side (short way). I spin with a hand crank tangential and have not blown any out.


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## mcooper (Dec 3, 2009)

Bsupplier said:


> Have you guys tried adding a couple of #64 rubberbands-1/4" wide brown ones? In my unwired mediums I add 1 per side after uncapping about 1/3 of the way in on each side (short way). I spin with a hand crank tangential and have not blown any out.


Do you think cross wiring and going slow with tangential extracting would work?


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## scottr08 (Oct 7, 2009)

Is there a place I can just purchase the top bars for these frames. $.95 is a bit pricey for a frame for me.



Scott

http://northernneckoysters.webs.com/beekeepingbonsai.htm
http://scottriley-bees-and-oysters.blogspot.com/


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You'd have to ask, but as far as I know Kelley has always sold individual peices of frames on request. Just end bars, just top bars etc.


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