# New England Bee Breeders Association



## Michael Palmer

Are there any new England Queen Breeders here? I'm looking to start a New England Bee Breeders Association. So far, I have some very qualified beekeepers on the list.
Mike


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## Joel

Mike, when you get your group together please fill us in on your bylaws and give us a list of breeders so we know where to shop!


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## Michael Palmer

You bet, Joel. That's the whole idea. I hope the group can become a meeting place for NE breeders to get together to share ideas and stock, and for beekeepers to have a place to get quality northern grown stock. I don't have an agenda here, just a desire to bring producers and purchasers together. Each producer could advertise on the web site. To a point, I would like to see their business be their business, and not the association's. One rule might be stock must be raised from northern stock, maintained and wintered in the north. But then, what do we do with breeder queens raised from outside the area... ie ...VSH(SMR), or Russian stock brought in for breeding purposes. 

We'll, maybe a bit of an agenda.  To develop a source for queens produced by open mating in the north, away from contamination with AHB.
Note: At a talk I gave recently in New Haven, CT, I suggested that we form this NEBBA group. The response was a little surprising. The audience burst into applause. I've never had that happen before.
Mike


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## George Fergusson

>We'll, maybe a bit of an agenda.  

Nothing wrong with an agenda Mike. Everybody's got one









>The audience burst into applause.

Well Duh! It's a timely idea, wholly appropriate, and way over due. Count me in as an interested party. What I lack in experience I make up for in ignorance!


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## naturebee

--I hope the group can become a meeting place for NE breeders to get together to share ideas and stock, and for beekeepers to have a place to get quality northern grown stock.--(MP)

--One rule might be stock must be raised from northern stock, maintained and wintered in the north.--(MP)


This is a SUPER great idea!

But with all sincerity, the tough questions do need to be asked. 

Where is the northern divisionary line for this stock dictated? Would the creation of a northern breeders organization based solely on the political divisionary boundaries set back in 1643 by a group of politicians in the formation of the New England Confederation of states, be counter to the basic fundamentals of northern honeybee biology that is inherently based much on climatic boundaries? 

I understand fully that a boundary must be set somewhere, But this distinction to New England states eliminates for instance very comparable climates found in New York from the pool. And the inclusion of states as far south as Rhode Island and Connecticut leaves out such comparable climates to that found in Northern New Jersey and Pennsylvania. 

Here for instance, the average climatic temperature seems more in line with the description of an area normally referred to as the North East states, rather than in line with colonial America divisions. 

http://www.eduplace.com/ss/maps/pdf/usclim.pdf 

Might be more aptly named Northeast Breeders Association, would certainly be inclusive to most northern hardy generics rather than exclusionary by politically set boundaries. A contributing member of New York might for instance might want to be recognized in an inclusive fashion for his contribution, rather than the appearance he is an outsider shipping his bees to the insiders of the New England Confederate States. He might not feel as comfortable wearing a New England Breeders patch, as he would a Northeast Breeders patch.









But All the best of luck to your plan.

[ December 31, 2006, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Michael Palmer

Yes Joe, I'm considering all that. I just said New England, because that's where I live and where i talk to so many other beekeepers. Of course including NY beekeepers hasa nothing to do with the fact that I have many colonies and apiaries in NW New York state. 

But seriously, you're right. But, where would the dvision lines be drawn? I really am a believer that the best queens come from the best colonies raised under the conditions of your area. 

So, when considering the condiotions...both summer and winter...where would the lines be drawn. 

If we consider the yearly weather and honey/pollen flow conditions of New England, then would New york qualify? Surely. And what of Pennsylvania and New Jersey? Probably. But what about when we get to the middle atlantic states. Surely the flows in for instance Maryland...with their early heavy flows and then notheng isn't the same. And Virginia with an early flow and almost no fall flow. 

So, as you can see, I have been giving some thought to this, but will wait for a consensus of members...once we get things going.
Mike


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## naturebee

Hello Mike!

Thanks for understanding my question, as not being hostile! 

I would certainly be very interested in a North East Breeders Association.

IMO, the inclusion of the entire North East area gives us the stability in numbers of participating members, and a variety of genetics to draw from. And the majority of the north east is keeping bees in somewhat similar climatic conditions in relation to the region.

I would think your concern that the best bees are adapted to ones specific area is a valid one. This is a important concern of mine also, and can be addressed by adopting sub-chapters throughout the north east, each addressing concerns specific to their one environmental conditions and bee needs. I am positive that Bjornbee would interested in the Pennsylvania chapter along with myself. But, we might have to fight over whos gonna be President.









[ December 31, 2006, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Michael Palmer

Hello Mike!
Thanks for understanding my question, as not being hostile!

I'm not a hostile person, Joe. I'm not afraid to say when I disagree, or don't understand. And I really do listen to what everyone has to say.

Joe said:
IMO, the inclusion of the entire North East area gives us the stability in numbers of participating members, and a variety of genetics to draw from. And the majority of the north east is keeping bees in somewhat similar climatic conditions in relation to the region.

Then where do we draw the line? Where does the northeast become the Midwest, or the Midatlantic?


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## naturebee

Of course it's up to a vote, but I suggest to draw it here with PA and NJ the southern most states, and the average temperature in January of at least that of 32 F at the bottom end. AND inclusive to only the states in the North East, United States due to the weather conditions and similar flows existing specific to the region. 

http://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/thematic-maps/maps/temperature-jan.gif

[ December 31, 2006, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Maine_Beekeeper

Hello Gentlemen - 
What would be the intention of the Association? Information sharing and ? Would this be an organization of/for professional Beekeepers and Queen breeders or would this also include "backyard/hobby" queen breeders? 
I'd love to find a source for really local queens - I've got a couple - he/she has a couple - a way to find this information would encourage people to try calling around a few local beeks before ordering a queen "from away."
I had great luck rearing my own queens last year and plan to continue. Ofcourse I've still got LOTS to learn and would be thrilled to be "in on the conversation" of the local professional breeders.
Thoughts?


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## Joel

I sould suggest the Mason Dixon line except if I was doing it I would Geryymander to exclude Joe and Bjorn!  

In all seriousness the winters in NJ are much milder as my NYC market experiance tells me their growing season has a huge jump on ours. Northern PA (expecially Bradford) is certainly a New England Climate in most parts but having lived in Chambersburg for several years I know the weather in the southern part of the state is much more settled. If you are looking for cold weather survivor stock I would consider that fact.

Technically New York is part of New England since Massachusettes has claimed much of New York (to Pre-Emption road in Dundee-30 mi north of me) since the boundries were drawn centuries ago! Anyone else know the details of this little historical fact?

[ January 01, 2007, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Michael Palmer

Technically New York is part of New England since Massachusettes has claimed much of New York (to Pre-Emption road in Dundee-30 mi north of me) since the boundries were drawn centuries ago! Anyone else know the details of this little historical fact?


Yeah, but New York and Massachusets forgot to ask what the Vermonters had to say. They said...to quote a later general..."Nuts," and formed their own state. And that, in later generations, left the flatlanders to pay ridiculous sums of money to go skiing in the Green Mountains, and for Vermont products of all kinds. Surely an attempt to get back a small reminder of what was lost.


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## Michael Palmer

Hello Gentlemen - 
What would be the intention of the Association?

Two fold...a place for producers to get to gether and compare notes and stock.

...a place for consumers to buy bees and queens raised in the north and away from the influence of AHB.

I see a web site to be used to highlight each producers stock and philosophy about survivor stock, etc, and a place where a beekeeper can go to find stock suitable to their beekeeping location and methods...really local queens, as you say.

Also, I believe that Northeast beekeepers could become self sufficient in in their queen and bee needs. But, surely not now, the way things are now. Everyone is way too disjointed. Going off in a million directions. We need to identify what we're up against.

How many packages of bees are shipped into the northease each year? How many queens?

And, how many producers are there here that could furnish quality bees and queens...when the beekeepers need them.

Seems like a daunting task, but one I think achievable.

You ask, just how do you propose to supply northern beekeepers the bees they need, when most need their packages in April, and in the north we can't make splits until May. Isn't that why the south raises most of out northerners' bees?

Well, you make nucs in mid-summer, and overwinter them. This gives you nucs in April.

My primary goal in forming the NEBBA, and in my beekeeping education...and in fact...posting on these internet newsgroups...is not to, in some way benefit. If all you beekeepers that must buy bees each spring to replace deadouts, or to make increase would only listen. More and more of us are saying it. Grow your own bees. Once you are familiar with the process, and have learned to winter nucleus colonies, you'll have all the bees you want. Then we can concentrate on stock improvement...hence the web site.


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## naturebee

--I know the weather in the southern part of the state is much more settled. If you are looking for cold weather survivor stock I would consider that fact.-=-(Joel)

Hello Joel!

For what it's worth,

Consider the fact that you have varying conditions all over the north. But they all ARE, and a fact to consider,,, a place to find cold weather survivor stock. 

IMO, to be tweaking at this early point would set too many variables in to play at a early stage of the game and IMO exclusionary in nature. 

Do we exclude Bradford because it is not as cold as Erin, NY? Do we exclude Erin, NY because it is not as cold as St. Albans, Vermont? Do we exclude St. Albans, Vermont because it is not as cold as some parts of Maine? Some might take thier bees to Florence SC or Florida for winter, how do we figure that in?

IMO, this microclimatic issues are a BIG concern to all in the north because I am not necessarily shopping for stock further north than mine. IMO, these things can be addressed in the association list of breeders description of specific environment. I would hope the goal would be to promote the shopping around for stock and NOT restricting of stock based on degree of northerenerness or special interests. 

I would hope that the association works by enabling beekeepers to match environments with what they are looking for. And the exclusion of parts of the North East based on the degree of winter experienced might perhaps be counter productive to this goal, IF in fact it is a GOAL. 

We are all northern beekeepers, and I would avoid the appearance of competition between areas or giving one are priority based on anything but the performance of the bees at the colony level.

[ January 01, 2007, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## naturebee

--Technically New York is part of New England since Massachusettes has claimed much of New York (to Pre-Emption road in Dundee-30 mi north of me) since the boundries were drawn centuries ago!--(MP)

OK, I see this will be determined by politics and loopholes and not bee biology.









Let me know when someone here figures out the what the definition of Northern Bees is.

Good luck in your venture!


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## Michael Palmer

>Some might take thier bees to Florence SC or Florida for winter, how do we figure that in?

I would say that beekeepers wintering in SC of FL are out. One of the main concerns with northern beekeepers would be to exclude AHB. Bees wintered in SC and FL could not guarantee non-exposure to AHB, and just how is the southern beekeeper going to select for wintering abilities and tracheal mite resistance?


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## mobees

I am very interested in Queen breeding and would like to contribute. I have grown my own and would like to find a way to improve my stock.


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## Michael Palmer

mobees, send me your address. I'll add you to the list


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## George Fergusson

Hi All-

I've been waiting for Mike to flesh out his idea a bit more, and he's begun to do that. I've started several messages but aborted them because... I don't know why. Just couldn't get a good start. Wanted to chew on the idea some more. Decided to wait to see what direction it was heading. Anyways..

This is an idea whose time has come. I wouldn't want to see it fail to launch because it got too complicated or too ambitions too fast. I also wouldn't want to see it fall short of it's goals, which I believe are realistic. How can we go about clarifying those goals and start working toward them?

Getting a handle on the scope of the project would seem to be pretty important step- some good numbers on the demand for bees and queens in the northeast for example, and the number of beekeepers in the area and what kind of operations they run and how they meet their bee and queen needs would be good things to know. It would help in figuring out how to proceed. Not sure the best way to go about getting this information, perhaps the individual state;s apiary programs might have some useful information to get started.

I spent a little time this afternoon looking at the USDA zone maps in the hopes it would help figure out the best geographic range of the organization. Interesting, but I see no clear solution to the question based on hardiness zones. Maybe the rest of you could look them over and see what you think.

When this organization gets off the ground and starts making waves, we'll likely see the formation of other similar organizations in other parts of the country with many opportunities for collaboration and the exchange of information and ideas. Sounds exciting.

So these are some of my initial thoughts. Off to bed to read my new BC, then sleep, per chance to dream


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## Michael Palmer

This is exactly my concern. That's why I wanted to start with New England...my home town. I know the area, and many of the beekeepers. Keeping it simple is a wise thought. But, I can also see the wisdom of including PA and NY...besides, we can't leave out Waggle. 
But seriously...

>When this organization gets off the ground and starts making waves, we'll likely see the formation of other similar organizations in other parts of the country with many opportunities for collaboration and the exchange of information and ideas. Sounds exciting.

There already are others starting. Dr Larry Connor has been telling me of an Ohio group that may be forming. I'm sure the southern package/queen producers must have their own group, and have for years. Am I wrong in this?

Well George, Give it some thought. All ideas are on the table. I'll check back in after next Sunday, the 7th. I'm going to Eugene Oregon tomorrow, to do some skiing with my daughter. Not enough snow around here to say so.


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## Joel

{to be tweaking at this early point would set too many variables in to play at a early stage of the game and IMO exclusionary in nature.}

Agreed and another factor to consider if this is to succeed will be the limited number of queen breeders actually focusing on Ferals, an important part of any future successful queen breeding quest, which in the long run may have as much or more impact that geography.

[ January 01, 2007, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Michael Palmer

Well, we'll have to see about that. I'm in no way criticizing breeding from ferals, but since ferals were escapes at some time, breeding from survivors would be the same. I think it will be shown that there are more survivors than we think...we just gotta stop treating and allow...once again...the cream to rise to the top.


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## naturebee

For what its worth,

Being a member of the association would NOT necessitate that you will be forced to accept each others stock. So why worry about this right now? Going off in this direction is duplicating what will be determined by consumer demand anyhow, and therefore not necessary. So whats the big deal at this point if the breeder chooses to breed ferals, survivors or small cell etc.? 

At this stage, I would recommend to set only a few fundamental requirements, to mention a few, maybe:

1) That stock and queens be kept and bred in the north
2) What states are to be included

Then on each individual members profile, you can list all these particulars we are all concerned about so we can shop around. I would recommend to let shopping around and consumer demand dictate the special needs and preferences of each northern beekeeper.

A member profile questionnaire might include such questions as:

a) Number of queens produced yearly. 
b) Method of queen rearing
c) Number of drone source colonies and estimated feral drone contribution.
d) A description of what best describes the race of bees you breed.
e) The breed of stock obtained within the past 5 years. 
f) The origins of stock obtained within the past 5 years.
g) A description of your yearly flow and percent of forage types.
h) Location and contact information. 
I) the treatments used in the past 5 years
J) Treatments currently being used

You can see now how a member profile can allow more breeders to participate, and also the tools each member needs to shop around for special needs, eliminating the need to adopt a bunch of rules.

By keeping rules to fundamentals, this allows and open door to those entering the field. Then the association can do what associations do best, teach and provide a place to network If you adopt rules to restrict to breeds of bees, then IMO you have a Breeders CLUB and not an association.


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## Michael Palmer

>Being a member of the association would NOT necessitate that you will be forced to accept each others stock. So why worry about this right now? Going off in this direction is duplicating what will be determined by consumer demand anyhow, and therefore not necessary. So whats the big deal at this point if the breeder chooses to breed ferals, survivors or small cell etc.?

None at all. I want this to be a clearing house, not to support one agenda or another.

>You can see now how a member profile can allow more breeders to participate, and also the tools each member needs to shop around for special needs, eliminating the need to adopt a bunch of rules.

Yes Joe. Exactly what I would have said.

>If you adopt rules to restrict to breeds of bees, then IMO you have a Breeders CLUB and not an association.
If you adopt rules to restrict to breeds of bees, then IMO you have a Breeders CLUB and not an association.

Yes, but there must be some rules...some of whifh you have already stated...bees must be bred and wintered in the north...in an attempt to:
1. Give the consumer aclimatized northern grown stock...which they all want.
2. Keep AHB out of the northern stock...hopefully.


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## George Fergusson

Any recent thoughts on this?


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## Michael Palmer

I have a list by state, and it's growing. I just got in one I've been waiting for...one of the state inspectors. Still looking for a few more. Specifically:

I have nothing for NJ
I have nothing for RI
Need the address for NY, PA, CT, NJ apiculturists
Could use more input from NH, NY, PA, CT


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## Ann

FWIW, I'm a gardener. People, Places and Plants is a wonderful magazine from Maine, dedicated to New England gardening. They've included New York in that group. THey also have a Mid-Atlantic edition, that covers New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and south (the traditional Mid-Atlantic area). 

I'm very interested in this regional breeding association. I think it's timely, as I'd like to get northern bred bees for our new hives up in Maine.


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## Alan

I sent you a pm michael, in case you didn't already read it

-Alan


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## George Fergusson

Here you go Michael:

http://www.mda.state.mn.us/apiary/directory.htm


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## Michael Palmer

Thanks George. I'm so lazy! I just knew you would send me a list.


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## livetrappingbymatt

a very interesting thread!
bob


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## hummingberd

hows this association coming along???

Update please...

-K-


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## BjornBee

I would be interested in how things are going. I would like to know the percieved or suggested benefits of such an association.

What would be the benefit, both to consumer and breeder? I find northern breeders swamped with business, and myself, I turn down three times more business every year than I produce.

My stock overwinters in the north, I use no treatments, I maintain a breeding stock augmented with a breeder from Glenn or other origins, and I feel any additional advertising would only increase the number of people I would just say "sorry" too.

If your a northern breeder of any quality, and do just minimal advertising, throw in word of mouth business.....if you got bees not sold... your doing something wrong!

So with that said, whats the goal, benefit, and plans of such an association?

Please do not take my comments as ego, or somehow the wrong way. It would be a tough sell for me to commit time, effort, and other resources for another "association", knowing I can't ever produce enough to fill the orders coming in as it is.


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## Michael Palmer

I would be interested in how things are going. 

Slowly. I put together a list of interested beekeepers, in the North East states, and started working on a web site. Then, I got too busy with my bees to finish. Guess things will be up and running for next year.


>>I would like to know the percieved or suggested benefits of such an association.

>>What would be the benefit, both to consumer and breeder? I find northern breeders swamped with business, and myself, I turn down three times more business every year than I produce.

Well, for the consumer...a place to find the northern stock they want. I realize what you are saying, Bjorn. I can't raise enough queens to fill my orders, either. But, with a bit of education, and encouragement, we can bring other qualified beekeepers in on the project, and have them raise queens, too. As far as the producers goes...it would be a place for them to compare notes with each other, and find out what is working for some and what's not for others.



My stock overwinters in the north, I use no treatments, I maintain a breeding stock augmented with a breeder from Glenn or other origins, and I feel any additional advertising would only increase the number of people I would just say "sorry" too.


Please do not take my comments as ego, or somehow the wrong way. 

I understand what you are saying, and agree.


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## ME Beekeeper

Hi Michael, 

Yes, I like your ideas.  I just started last year breeding queens/bees. I intended on keeping them for myself, but sold several queens to our local club members. I started with close to 30 virgin queens and weeded them out to about 17 keepers. I now have several club members hounding me for nucs to replace their dead-outs. I had no loses this past year. I was lucky from what it sounds like. I'd like to find out more about instrumental insemination. I've had problems finding affordable equipment. I took in Larry Connors talk in Maine a year ago when you were here. I enjoyed your talk and have put some of your ideas to use already. I'd like to keep in touch and be put on your email list of Q-Breeders. I'm still a side-liner/hobbyist but seem to have something started here in my neck of the woods. I retire from teaching in 4 years (33 years in) and maybe this will be my new job. Haha 

Erin Forbes spoke to me of your ideas. It all sounds great to me with what I have read and heard from Erin. We've seen several articles in Bee Culture and ABJ related to this type of independence and collaboration. In Maine, we have had mixed emotions about buying Southern Bees to winter here. And with mixed results. Mike you know how that is.  Most of us have been saying that we need to buy at least Northern Queens for some time. We've tried buying from Mike at times. Your bees don't seem to last either, they sell fast.

Keep me posted for upcoming events, swap meets, dialog, etc
Larry Peiffer [email protected]


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## berkshire bee

*interested as a club*

Mike, your talks down here were much appreciated and generated a lot of interested. Thanks for going the extra mile (literally)One club member is picking up 10 deeps tomorrow to turn into double nucs. When are your workshops scheduled? Tony


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## Maine_Beekeeper

Hi Larry - thanks for reviving this thread and putting it back onto our front burner!

I was actually hoping that I might convince you to be our Maine delegate to the NEBBA - at least for 2008 - I think the Dumonts are pretty engaged with other issues this year and I haven't talked to Lincoln Sennett. I know you are busy but I think this is a very worthy and important cause - especially for us Mainers. We've got enough outside bees coming in via pollination contracts - the southern packages going to beginners just compound the problems. 

See you Monday!
-E.


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## Michael Palmer

berkshire bee said:


> Mike, your talks down here were much appreciated and generated a lot of interested. Thanks for going the extra mile (literally)One club member is picking up 10 deeps tomorrow to turn into double nucs. When are your workshops scheduled? Tony


Hey Tony. It was a pleasure talking to your group. Guess I lost track of the time. Started at 2:15, and the next time I looked at the clock, it was 7:05. Where was the guy with the 10 minute sign.  

It's pretty exciting for me...all the folks starting a nuc wintering project, or considering giving queen rearing a go. Give it a few years, and I bet we see some real changes in beekeeping.

The Vermont Beekeepers Workshops are as follows:

Workshop Schedule for Summer 2008



April 19 – Unwrapping hives, first spring Inspection, Feeding light colonies, equalizing brood, winter kill diagnosis GIB GEIGER 

April 26 – Package Bee Installation (North Yard Only) BILL MARES/RUSS ACETO

May 10 - Reversing supers, making divides BILL MRAZ

June 7 – Adding supers, disease inspection, swarm control STEVE PARISE 

June 14 –Queen rearing with Mike Palmer, Location Change: **Hudak Vegetable Farm, Route 7, St. Albans/Swanton** http://www.hudakfarm.com/HudakFarm-Map.html MIKE PALMER 

July 12 – Re-queening and Making nucs to winter over MIKE PALMER 

July 26 – VBA Summer Meeting Sharon Academy

Aug. 9 - Harvesting honey, mite control techniques JAMES GABRIEL

Sept. 13 - Preparing hives for winter RICK STONER/BILL MARES



All workshops are on Saturday unless otherwise noted. 



Workshops are free and open to the public. We will open bee colonies, so you are encouraged to bring a veil and bee suit (if necessary).


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## Aspera

Hello. I consider myself a Mid-Adlantean but always enjoy reading Mr. Palmers wisdom. It though occurs to me that you may wish to define the goals of the breeding group. If you want simply to control the genetics of a select group of breeders, than you might define the organization in terms of drone source or queen mating techniques. If you wish to create a social network, use highways and zip-codes or belief systems. Just a thought.


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## ME Beekeeper

Hi Erin.

 Yes the southern packages are a gamble for beeks if they don't put the sugar syrup to them until they have a full two deeps. We've had poor seasons where a package after they get started can't make a go of it on their own. The beginners don't always understand that. Beginners don't always know when or why to feed. Then they winter with only 1/2 of their frig full. They die and don't know why. 

Larry


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## hummingberd

MSBA Webmaster said:


> Hi Erin.
> 
> Yes the southern packages are a gamble for beeks if they don't put the sugar syrup to them until they have a full two deeps. We've had poor seasons where a package after they get started can't make a go of it on their own. The beginners don't always understand that. Beginners don't always know when or why to feed. Then they winter with only 1/2 of their frig full. They die and don't know why.
> 
> Larry


I'm one of those beeks you "speak" of! Erin informed me of the process a package of bees goes through, and i assure you, I'll go without bees before I ever buy a package again! Talk about factory farming. I'm hoping that this organization pans out, as I'd love to have a place to shop for northern bees. Summer is an awfully busy time for me, because I clean houses for a living, and there's a lot of work to be done. I'm going to see if I can sneak in a class with michael palmer. I work on Saturdays, but I may be able to find a substitute! I'd love to learn how to make over wintered nucs!! 

and thanks again to Erin Forbes who has helped me a TON with my beekeeping. I'd be a retired beekeeper without her help!


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## ME Beekeeper

I was just wondering if the website is up for the Northeast/New England Queen Breeders yet? 

Thanks
Larry


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## Michael Palmer

MSBA Webmaster said:


> I was just wondering if the website is up for the Northeast/New England Queen Breeders yet?
> 
> Thanks
> Larry


Yep. A start of one. Just to get things going. I expect it will change once we can organize a meeting. I sent a notice to some of the New England associations for their spring meetings. Maybe in the Fall, after bee work is done, we all can plan something.

nebba.org


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## ME Beekeeper

Yep. A start of one. Just to get things going. I expect it will change once we can organize a meeting. I sent a notice to some of the New England associations for their spring meetings. Maybe in the Fall, after bee work is done, we all can plan something.

nebba.org



Hi Mike,

 It looks like a good start. Put me on your list. 

Larry


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## Mosherd1

I don't think that this ever got off the ground but if anyone decides to get it going please put me down on the list. If it did begin I would love to know what I can do to help.


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## llang

Michael,

You might want to look at the Eco Region maps to define boundries..

http://www.fs.fed.us/land/ecosysmgmt/colorimagemap/ecoreg1_provinces.html


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## Mosherd1

Out of curiousity...if this has not been started was the reason for it not getting started because of lack of interest/members or just never got organized to make a "formal" association?


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## Michael Palmer

In order to have a breeder's association, you have to have breeders. Queen reraring is still in its infancy in New England. When there are enough beekeepers raising queens for sale, we'll start a NEBBA.

I might as well ask now...how many here are raising queens for sale, or are just learning how to raise quality queens and plan on raising queens commercially in the future? In what state are you keeping bees?


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## 67630

I raise and sell in upstate NY.


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## Mosherd1

I raise and sell in northern. CT. Although definitely not at the level that would qualify as "commercially."


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## deknow

Michael Palmer said:


> In order to have a breeder's association, you have to have breeders.


IMHO, there also must be some distinction between "rearing queens" and "breeding bees". If I have time later, I'll post some further thoughts.

deknow


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## Mosherd1

I think you make a good point. If it will be limited to only New Englanders that are currently breeding, not just rearing, bees then it may be a small group. If it will be open to people who want to do more than just rearing (propogating) queens, a place where true breeding (not just propogating) can be discussed, marketing ideas for the queens and nucs can be exchanged, desirable northern traits can be discussed and determine what is working for us than I think it will have a larger following. This group could be as simple as a website where members can gather and exchange ideas to more organized with annual meetings, cell exchanges, site visits, etc. At this point I can not consider myself a "breeder", as I use a Glenn Apiary VSH breeder to raise my queens from. At the same time does the fact that I am not using a New England queen exclude me from joining? I guess these are just some initial thoughts that probably need to be determined before this could take off. 

Mike said that we need breeders in order to have a breeding association. I look at it a little differently I guess. I think we need interested queen rearers who are looking to learn from the experts, like Mike, how to breed and not just propogate.


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## THALL

Raise and sell in NH. As the apiary grows so will the number of queens.


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## BeeBrothersApiary

Michael Palmer said:


> ...When there are enough beekeepers raising queens for sale...


Define: "enough"

Let's get this rolling today the rest will fall into place. You won't be alone in the work, just ask. 
We can haggle over boundaries, or allow them to set themselves. Roadblocks are more of a concern than boundaires.

- elect five officers (1 yr terms. Pres, VP, Tres, Sec. & webmaster)
- charge a $15 yearly dues, officers pay immediately
- assign responsibilites
- you have a domain url already? NEBBA.com or .org
- once a week or month we meet here in a chat room
- once a year we meet at a breeders business

We don't need the answers to anything else yet. 
You (mike p) has the vision and personnel power here to get it off the ground.
Times a wasting. Let's Roll


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## Mosherd1

Well put, maybe late fall or during winter this can get off the ground when most of the season has started to slow down a bit. But I agree, seize the day! I think we just need the overall structure and purpose to be defined and then run with it from there. This of course is Mike's brainchild and I will follow his lead/thoughts as we move forward to beginning this.


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## Michael Palmer

BeeBrothersApiary said:


> We don't need the answers to anything else yet.
> You (mike p) has the vision and personnel power here to get it off the ground.
> Times a wasting. Let's Roll


Well, I'll tell you. Right now I'm working 80 hour weeks raising queens and making nucs. I have no energy left for anything else, except a bit of gardening. If you and Mosherd1 (seize the day!) want to start this ball rolling, I'll help where I can. You'll have to get in touch with bee clubs in each state to find where there is an active queen rearing program started.


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## BeeBrothersApiary

Michael Palmer said:


> ...working 80 hour weeks ...


Same here.

Even seen this:

http://www.nsqba.org/


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## Michael Palmer

Michael Palmer said:


> You'll have to get in touch with bee clubs in each state to find where there is an active queen rearing program started.


Larry Connor has done a lot of the preliminary or into work with many of the bee clubs. If someone wants to write the state/local clubs to find out how far their queen rearing programs have progressed it would be helpful. I wrote as many as I could find addresses for and at the time there was really nothing going on. That was a couple years ago...before Larry got going. Some states never even replied...NJ and RI to be specific. I know now there are queen rearing programs in many of the rest of the NE states.


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## Mosherd1

I will try to put something together and contact the organizations. Mike, do you feel Pennsylvania should be contacted? I was thinking Maine, VT, CT, NH, NY, RI, MA, NJ, PA.


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## Mosherd1

Heard back from Seth Belson, Pres of the NJBA, they have nothing formalized and no plans to start anything. They tried a bee club yard and said it became too difficult to manage. They did agree that they we need a more localized bee because they are experienceing high number of supercedures of queens coming from the South. He does want us to keep him posted as we decide whether or not we should move forward.


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## THALL

I have compiled a list of beekeepers here in NH who are selling/breeding queens or who would be interested in the NEBBA.


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## adamf

Mike,
I understand a geographic/regional charter for a breeding group. However, as
in tight selection for phenotypic characteristics, you're possibly missing
out on a large pool of desirable germplasm by limiting your breeding pool
to a specific area. If you came up with breeding goals and criteria, and
then tested potential candidates, you'd have the best of both: selecting
from a broader pool for specific expressions.

This could be running asynchronously with local selection.

Adam Finkelstien
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## THALL

So is the bird ready to come out of the oven??? Shes been cooking for a few years??? Anyone up for getting people together for a meeting?


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## deknow

THALL said:


> So is the bird ready to come out of the oven??? Shes been cooking for a few years??? Anyone up for getting people together for a meeting?


I'm not really interested in an association, but I am interested in helping those who are rearing queens become better breeders, and help all beekeepers learn (and practice) rearing/breeding.

Id be happy to host a potluck sometime mid/late January in Leominster, Massachusetts if there is interest. If you reply, please let me know what evenings are good and what are impossible

Deknow


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## deknow

deknow said:


> I'm not really interested in an association, but I am interested in helping those who are rearing queens become better breeders, and help all beekeepers learn (and practice) rearing/breeding.
> 
> Id be happy to host a potluck sometime mid/late January in Leominster, Massachusetts if there is interest. If you reply, please let me know what evenings are good and what are impossible
> 
> Deknow


...or we could probably arrange a meeting of 10 people in Boston.

If people want to get together, let's do it.


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## THALL

What I'm looking for is to get to know other breeders in the North East (those whom I have not crossed paths with). What their paradigms are for running their apiary and to trade/buy stock with.


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## camero7

Dean, I'd be interested. I've avoided raising queens but think it's time.


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## stripstrike

I'm up for a trip to Leominster. There's always something to learn, and this is an area I'm sadly lacking in.

K


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## Michael Palmer

THALL said:


> What I'm looking for is to get to know other breeders in the North East (those whom I have not crossed paths with). What their paradigms are for running their apiary and to trade/buy stock with.


That was the original idea behind this. To date, I haven't seen enough interest by those actually raising queens, to start a meaningful group. I may be wrong, and it is true that more are considering raising queens, but is there enough interest and enough expertise out there to get this off the ground now? 

I'm open to suggestions. I would be willing to host a meeting here in Vermont, as I have a large cell building apiary and a mating yard with 500+ mating nucs. It would have to be during the active queen rearing time...mid-June to mid-July, to be of any value. A busy time for everyone.


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## THALL

Mike,
I'm on board with a meeting somewhere in VT during June or July. Ill keep in touch with you as the season starts to wind up.


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## MES613

We really need something like this. I, too, would be interested in participating. I'm planning on some serious queen rearing this spring after a few years of watching/reading/learning. I've got more enthusiasm than experience, but I'd welcome the chance to help this group come together.


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## mms93003

I'm raising and selling queens and nucs on a small scale in New Hampshire and Massachusetts. I'd be interested in a June/July meeting in Vermont with Michael Palmer if you're willing to include aspiring breeders. Set a date and I'll be there.


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## Mersunwea

Hi,
Did you guys found this association?
Thanks


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## McBee7

After skimming through this thread, there seems to be some hesitation of where to draw the
boundry lines...And there are a lot of big fat toes that might get stepped on...
How bout--If you live in the northeast US, and you have $20 you can be a member,
period...But if you want to be a listed "Breeder of queens or stock" you have to pay $200
and be subject to an evaluation of your stock and management ... Kind of a survival scale
for the stock you offer...You start with 50 points and if your avg winter temp is less than
32F and you winter outside, you get an additional 10 point,,,if you get more than 48 inches
of snow per season you get an additional 10 points ...altitude above or below 3000ft,plus
or minus 10points...survivor stock 10points...
there could also be minus points...AHB area minus 10 points,,,100miles from AHB minus 5
points..ect. ect.you end up with a # that represents the hardiness of your stock to winter.
Or you could have a rating for your bees like fertilizer has---10-10-10--each # representing
a different trait in relation to wintering....
Now as a paying member you get the rite to buy from the listed breeders at a discount,,
plus attend a regional sponsored convention or educational day...plus 1 vote on regional
matters....
And the breeders get recognition of their stock evaluated on a sliding scale,,as well as
cooperative meetings, and engauge in the Associations efforts to provide the 
beekeeping world with superior gernetics to the general public...

...Just thinking...outside of the box...

==McBee7==


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## jmgi

MP, I'm not from your region, but I am a northerner who would be very interested in seeing this get off the ground in a big way so that we have more options when it comes to queens, that is, northern raised queens that are more suitable for us up here. As you say, the demand for early southern packages in the north every year is something that must be addressed also, but obviously, there is little we can do about that as our climate prevents the raising of northern packages early enough and in the quantities that are required to meet demand. Your dedication to promoting the raising of late summer nuc's and overwintering them by northern beekeepers is really the only thing that comes close to partially solving the package bee dilemma, so keep up the good work.


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## Mosherd1

I have been off this site for a couple years, although quite active in bees during that time, and was wondering if anyone could update me if this ever took off or what the current status is? Thanks,
-Dave


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## kilocharlie

While you're all at it, some friendly suggestions from Southern California 

The exclusive nature of the group's cause (and comparatively limited number of candidates for membership) has cost you several years (seemingly due to not enough members advanced far enough in breeding), so why not open it up to everyone, and have separate committees on areas / winter temperature groups / mite tolerance strains / queen raising vs. honeybee breeding, etc.?

From my experience in several organizations, numbers of members and fervency of enthusiasm of those members are the driving forces when it comes to getting stuff done. Throw in an adept leader and WOW!!!

Schedule more meetings in the of season than during the 80-hour workday season, and a monthly social for those not so intensely involved that they can still go.

A group cooperating in bulk ordering alone will probably result in more North Eastern beekeepers becoming queen rearing specialists and eventually honeybee breeders.

Formalizing standards of breeding, testing for trait expression, etc. will really help many who are almost there start talking apples and apples instead of apples and avocadoes. Just a group getting together talking about these concepts is really going to help. The website is an awesome idea.

A list of communal open-mating yards would be a big help for those rearing queens and not yet breeding them. Conversely, a STAY-AWAY list for isolated drone-flooding yards would keep a breeder's bloodlines more pure if other beekeepers will respect them.

I'd also recommend steering away from the tendency of some state bee associations of utilizing expensive hotels for week-long events, favoring instead High school auditoriums, college classrooms, woodshops, Grange halls, a campground, whatever is practical for the groups' size and purpose. Potlucks planned in advance is a great idea, though a bit of a challenge to the out-of-staters (KFC and/or pizza works, and there are other options - catering, even a cook-out).

I'd also suggest a small steering group getting together to look at other organizations' constitution and by-laws, and trying to get a parliamentarian to help. He/she will clarify Constitution & by-laws issues, and help customize it to your organization. If a few people have had some exposure to formal Parliamentary procedure (Roberts' Rules of Order) it usually makes informal procedure go extremely smooth. This is not to start a backlash - I have seen it work and get *AMAZING amounts of work* accomplished in a single meeting. I've also seen very enthusiastic organizations accomplish ZERO due to inability to focus a meeting on an agenda (remember "Occupy Wall Street"? I'd VERY STRONGLY advise *NOT* using Green Party prodedure). No big thing if you don't want to do it, just floating an idea.

I think that 2007 was indeed a good time to get started, so maybe 2015 is a good time to loosen the limitations and actually get started.

In any case, good luck with it. Oops! Strike that...MAKE YOUR LUCK!


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## Michael Palmer

kilocharlie said:


> While you're all at it, some friendly suggestions from Southern California
> 
> The exclusive nature of the group's cause (and comparatively limited number of candidates for membership) has cost you several years (seemingly due to not enough members advanced far enough in breeding), so why not open it up to everyone, and have separate committees on areas / winter temperature groups / mite tolerance strains / queen raising vs. honeybee breeding, etc.?


Well, the idea wasn't to make some kind of exclusive club. Too much of that already out there. But, why would a Florida breeding group have much to give to a North Dakota group. True? 

I floated this idea to see if there was any interest in forming a core group to come together and combine what we're doing in New England with queen breeding. Honestly, I didn't feel that there was enough interest among beekeepers, who had enough experience to form the group. Lots of folks would have liked to participate but almost no one with enough expertise to accomplish anything significant. I backed away because I didn't think anyone was ready. Perhaps things have changed. I also don't have the time to set up and run the group. I would still like to get something going, but it will take more than me and a couple others that are far enough along in their queen rearing and selection program to have such a group. 

Has there been a change? Are there enough keepers involved in stock improvement to justify the time required to set up such a group? I welcome any suggestions.


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## Mosherd1

Mike I agree with you, I think different locales should develop their own breeding groups. Although I may not be quite there with the quality of my personal breeding stock like I was a few years ago, I think that if this were to happen we cannot just flip a switch and say, starting January 1st we are ready to go. I think there needs to be some questions that are answered first. 
1. How formal will this group be? Is it just a handful of people trading queens, or will there be a leadership group that would help to determine the structure?
2. What criteria in your bees is needed to become a breeder. Does size of an apiary matter, does years of experience, production numbers etc?
3. Is this a group with an end goal in mind of becoming treatment free or just trying to overwinter successfully?
The questions and structure could go on and on, but initially I think what is needed is a list of names of people who are interested in participating. Participation may be as a breeder, as someone looking to help organize and lead the group. But Mike you are correct, we need to determine if there is interest in this idea at all, at any level. Although I am a year or two away from getting my stock back online to a point where I would feel comfortable breeding for this group, I do offer my help in getting this off the ground. For my living I run a successful business, so managing employees, leading, marketing, and structuring an operation in an organized manner are skills I bring to the table. But first we need interest. Mike, with your blessing, I am willing to take the first step and obtain a list of interested parties. Anyone interested please PM me with your name (not Beesource user name), where you live (town and State) and a little about your current operation and at what level of participation you would like to contribute . I think this would be step one. Thanks,
-Dave


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