# Best Varroa Resistant Breed for NH



## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

The success of treatment free beekeeping seems to depend primarily on genetics. I am trying to decide which strain(s) to start with. What would you recommend? VSH? Russian? Biting breeds?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

The best bees so far are the ones I caught in swarm traps and the second best was bought from a local beek that doesn't treat. Then if they live, they are the best. I am only starting my third summer with bees but so far they live and I don't treat. Take it for what it is worth. I have no ideal if the swarms I caught came from somebodies bought hive or some tree. They are alive after thier second winter though. I only have 8 hives.
Cheers
gww


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

I am a fan of russian stock. However, no honeybee is fully immune to the mites and viruses. Even if you don't practice "treatments" I would still make splits to break up the mite cycle and remove drone comb to give your bees a leg up.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



> The success of treatment free beekeeping seems to depend primarily on genetics


 I'm not TF but I do incorporate a couple queens with hygienic behaviors every year. My opinion of those that have been TF for 3+ years is they work at it. The bees genetics help but they're not there yet. TF isn't a fire and forget proposition, I would say the greater part of the success lies with the beekeeper.


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## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



Eikel said:


> TF isn't a fire and forget proposition, I would say the greater part of the success lies with the beekeeper.


Of course bees with good genetics still need to be managed, mainpulated and evaluated/requeened for mite resistance . Perhaps I am mistaken, but even the best treatment free beekeeper can't keep bees with little resistance to varroa alive.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



NHbeek said:


> The success of treatment free beekeeping seems to depend primarily on genetics.


i'm not sure that 'primarily' has been established as of yet. there is still much we do not know about mite resistance. in addition to genetics and management techniques there are other considerations such as climate, having large expanses of wooded lands providing habitat for and the existence of surviving ferals, abundance and quality of forage, and exposure to monoculture and pesticides to name a few.

generally speaking the folks reporting year after year success on this forum are working with locally adapted hybridized mutt survivors, tend to have an established feral population in the area, and tend to not have large treated apiaries in their immediate vicinity.

in addition to thwarting the mites' ability to reproduce there are other traits which appear to be involved as well. these traits include the ability to modulate brood rearing in response to forage availability (i.e. natural brood breaks), the tendency to not allow drifting bees into the hive, and a decreased propensity for robbing.

my usual suggestion is to (when possible) locate beekeepers in your general area already having success off treatments and obtain bees and advice from them. another approach might be to cut out and/or trap swarms of proven overwintered feral colonies. 

if that is not possible then search as you are doing for bees having desirable traits. be prepared to monitor closely and have a plan in place to deal with mite collapse in such a way that you don't spread mites to other hives in your apiary or in your neighborhood.

most bees (there are some exceptions) available for purchase that are produced commercially are going to come with a history of being treated for mites. expecting them to be successful after stopping treatments 'cold turkey' may be asking too much.


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## Notapro (Dec 16, 2014)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

I agree with SP, it has a lot to do with the area you are in. If there is a lot of agriculture then the bees are exposed to herbicides and pesticides that have to impact the colony. I am fortunate to live in an area without a lot of row crop agriculture close by and to the east about a mile or so away is a large river swamp. Not sure if the swarm I started with was from feral bees in the swamp or escapees from a local beek (there are a couple about 3 miles away but none that I know of closer). Things may crash on me tomorrow but so far, knock on wood, I have been happy with my mutts! Actually caught two swarms in the last week!&#55357;&#56836;


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

Generally speaking the folks reporting year after year success, you are not insinuating that only the TF guys are experiencing success are you as that is definitely not true. At this point I know of no resistant bees that are truly resistant in all areas. The USDA and many other organizations are working in this direction but there has been no major breakthrough despite what you may hear to the contrary, Some bees are just a little better than others but if brought into contact with virulent mites and viruses will succumb just like the rest. Sure there are areas that folks claim to keep bees for years without treatment but how this actually happens is pure speculation as no one knows the answer. These bees do not do well in other locations.
Johno


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## Notapro (Dec 16, 2014)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

No, I am not insinuating that there are not others who are succesful with a different approach. All I am saying is that, so far, I have been able to consistently increase my hive count and have not treated with the exception of one hive two years ago. I agree with you that location and other factors play a large part in being able to keep bees treatment free. And I am not sure one way or the other if you could take my bees to another location and keep them without treatments. I have no data to say one way or the other so I would not make those claims.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

notapro
It is nice that it works that way where you are though, isn't it?
Cheers
gww


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

In any case, bees that have been selected for mite resistance and health are better to start tf, more importantly, if they have been bred to the north of their own location, as they will then have an easier time adjusting.
It does not have to be a professional breed, these bees may also have come from local hobby farming, but they should have been selected.

At tf attitude nature often selects, with treatment attitude the beekeeper should also have read out on hygienic behavior, grooming or other.
Then you have to select your own adapted bees or let it be consistent with nature and accept higher losses until everything stabilizes.

The mite drift has been explored by Dr Liebig.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Liebig
A collapsing hive in your own apiary releases about 5% phoretic mites if it happens in the flying season, a number that John Kefuss would probably welcome to trigger the resistance. 

In general, our bees are in poor health, mainly due to the lack of microorganisms due to constant treatments, unfavorable interior hive climate, too many and too close standing hives and unnatural management, especially the breaking up of the broodnest.
That is why the brood diseases have become so common. Brood disease like foul brood are a symptom of a declining immune system lacking the necessary microorganisms the bees need to heal themselves. IMO.

By the way, my AMM survivor hive, being surrounded by + - 35 treated susceptible commercial stock distance 200m to 1km is still alive and strong. Why is that? The queen is still there or her daughter if she was superseded, I never fed them, they are not opened for 10 months now. Grandma was a resistant queen from 2014 bred survivor attitude. Descendants are mutts. Colony is 2 years old, 2 winters.
They are exposed to spraying too. I now offered them to a scientific research program.

Beekeepers give the bees no chance to heal themselves anymore like it was in former times.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

In an article I read about John Kefuss's bees he paid beekeepers a penny a mite for mites found in his hives and very few were found, so the resistance would be from the lack of mites. However trials carried out with his bees and some resistant bees from Gothenburg with standard bees as control found that all the bees died from mite related causes. So what I am trying to get across is that a small minority of bees survive treatment free and it does not work for every one as the location seems to effect the success.
Johno


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

Johno


> it does not work for every one as the location seems to effect the success.


You mean just like location can affect honey production? Location probly has an effect on lots of things.
Cheers
gww


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

Johno,
how much time did you spend talking to Kefuss himself?
Well the guys who worked for him found the one or two mites but they did not get rich!

I spend more than 4 hours talking privately about bees with him on the conference being part of a little group interested. He is most generous with all you want to know and how his bees fare in different locations.

He gave me his e-mail. 
Bartek and I got his monitoring pc program to use for free. He was intrigued by the "Fort Knox" approach the polish beekeepers started.
http://wolnepszczoly.org/about-us/

So nobody must fear losses and may use only a small number of his hives for resistance breeding. Complaining is not a strategy. Standstill is not a good strategy.


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



NHbeek said:


> The success of treatment free beekeeping seems to depend primarily on genetics. I am trying to decide which strain(s) to start with. What would you recommend? VSH? Russian? Biting breeds?


I'm going to vote on VSH, with a caveat. The breeder has to actually be maintaining the trait, that goes with ankle biter, russian etc. It has to be maintained, and I don't think many are doing so.

A 100% expressing VSH hive will have ZERO reproducing mites. A 75% expressing hive will only allow around 50% of mites to be reproducing. A 50% expressing hive will allow around 67% of mites to be reproducing. This all excludes drone bees, which is generally pretty minimal and only for part of the year.

Expressing : reproducing mites
100% : 0%
75% : 50%
50% : 67%

Russians: Hard to find pure russians that are still being selected for mite resistance, seems many have returned to treating them or letting them out cross.

Ankle Biter: From what I'm hearing, they are not quite production ready yet. Hoping to get my hands on a breeder this year to see for myself. Perhaps this would be a very useful trait to cross into a high expressing VSH line.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

We still don't respect the impact local adaptation has on mite resistance. Move a queen into a new environment and watch mite resistance fail, regardless of the type. This is the factor that is muddying the waters for breeding programs.


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



lharder said:


> We still don't respect the impact local adaptation has on mite resistance. Move a queen into a new environment and watch mite resistance fail, regardless of the type. This is the factor that is muddying the waters for breeding programs.


I think we have two things here, resistance and tolerance. I believe localized bees are far more TOLERANT to mites while in their preferred environment. They do better there, and thus can handle the mites better.

When you have an actual mite resistance trait, like VSH, it is going to function in any environment. I'm not saying the hive will overwinter better in any environment, or whatever. I'm saying those bees are still going to detect and remove reproducing mites.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



lharder said:


> We still don't respect the impact local adaptation has on mite resistance. Move a queen into a new environment and watch mite resistance fail, regardless of the type. This is the factor that is muddying the waters for breeding programs.


I´m not so sure anymore about that after listening to the presentations. The queen seems to be just a part of the unity, she spends all her time in the interior and lays eggs, the bees are the ones which are in confrontation with the environment and supply the hive.
And I´m more and more convinced all our bees are more or less mite resistant, yes and brood disease resistant too, no matter what queen, and it´s beekeeping managements, hive constellations and constant treatments and the killing of the microorganisms that is the problem, plus the impact of agriculture and climate.

The genetics of survivor queens, no matter if imported ( hopefully from the north), seem to give a good start. The imported stock is the one in my yards which is still alive, not the local ones. But this could be different with local ferals or those not treated for years.
Juhani said this about his queens too which are performing well in italy.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



SiWolKe said:


> Juhani said this about his queens too which are performing well in italy.


Yes. To be exact I meant (hopefully said too  ) that our queens are not found to be totally varroa resistant in South Italy circumstances, but they perform better that any other breed Luca Consigli has tried. Seems that genetics have impact, and so does environment. 

I remember a comment of our bees from Roger White in Cyprys: our bees had the tendency of boiling out of hive. They just could not stand the heat. I could not blame them








Yesterday it looked like this, and they brought first pollen loads of this spring, probably alder.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

I don't think anyone will be able to just import queens that do well under tf conditions, unless you have to import from across the street from an established tf operation. However, its a useful first step if you are starting from scratch. Its probably imperative to raise daughters asap from imported "resistant" queens then use the hybrids as a useful first step. Or how about just testing local stock that is doing well and see if some resistance is developing under our nose. I think that many of our local beekeepers have been prophylactically using mite away strips without doing mite counts. Some are starting to, finding 10 percent mite counts in fall, treat with acids, and expect the hive to die. But it doesn't. 

I think the downside of organic acids is beginning to show. The mites really don't develop resistance to it, can be used over and over, and essentially removes almost all selective pressure related to mites from the bees. Any resistance to viruses goes out the window and it eventually becomes a zero sum game. Same weird losses as soon as there is any failure in treatment.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

Beekeepers, mostly commercials, are sometimes strange.

Because they use queens from resistance breeding (from a conversation of a colleague of mine with Juhani Lunden) and then the brood nest is not big enough in their eyes, although it means an adaptation. Maybe there may be less honey then, but you also have less cost for chemicals and maybe less work.

It is not continued at all then with such stock, testing it long time, away with it and newer introduced. Until the bees light the smoker for them


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

A typical and unfair comment on commercial beekeeping. Too lazy to light a smoker? Oh please. I don't say I find TF beekeepers who lose most of their bees every year as being strange. As usual, the discussion becomes them and us.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



Michael Palmer said:


> A typical and unfair comment on commercial beekeeping. Too lazy to light a smoker? Oh please. I don't say I find TF beekeepers who lose most of their bees every year as being strange. As usual, the discussion becomes them and us.


I apologize. It was meant as fun. And it was a quote from a presentation, not my invention.

But there is some truth in this. I have my losses because of commercial beekeeping of the last 30 years.. Not the other way around. Not even soft bond done here.

And I´m tired of having to hide still. I work with commercials, treaters, but they do not work with me, except those who see the treadmill.
Those who know but are not interested attack me for 5 years now as a varroa bomb. Them and us, it´s their idea, not mine.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



jcase said:


> I'm going to vote on VSH, with a caveat. The breeder has to actually be maintaining the trait, that goes with ankle biter, russian etc. It has to be maintained, and I don't think many are doing so.
> 
> A 100% expressing VSH hive will have ZERO reproducing mites. A 75% expressing hive will only allow around 50% of mites to be reproducing. A 50% expressing hive will allow around 67% of mites to be reproducing. This all excludes drone bees, which is generally pretty minimal and only for part of the year.
> 
> ...


Hi Jon and everyone--great to see folks enthusiastic about breeding toward varroa resistance!

Jon, looking at VSH expression in offspring from VSH parents, I'd be careful with the concept of "% Expression". Inheritance for suites of traits, in this example, VSH, can take some time to be fully understood, and regarding VSH as a percentage can be misleading--although convenient.

I'd look at VSH breeding units (breeder queens, drones from daughters of breeder queens) as either *having VSH *or *not having **VSH. *Rather then a percentage, it's a "good/not good" selection protocol. The easiest way to determine this is to observe the number of mites in test colonies over time, without treatments, or after a treatment on a given date, observe the number of mites in treated colonies three months after the treatment.

Or, if one is performing the non-reproductive VSH test, make a cut-off and cull anything below the cut-off.

Mite resistance comes from bees that are able to *inhibit mite population growth *in a way that the colony remains healthy after an infestation.

Keep your eyes open for good colonies and follow a test protocol that is accurate. 
Also keep in mind that selection will be much more effective, the larger the selection pool is.

Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



adamf said:


> Hi Jon and everyone--great to see folks enthusiastic about breeding toward varroa resistance!
> 
> Jon, looking at VSH expression in offspring from VSH parents, I'd be careful with the concept of "% Expression". Inheritance for suites of traits, in this example, VSH, can take some time to be fully understood, and regarding VSH as a percentage can be misleading--although convenient.
> 
> ...


Adam,

<post coffee edit>
I believe I miss interpreted your post. There is absolutely more to it than just monitoring the % of expressing VSH. Overall mite levels etc are absolutely needed to be monitored. So are other traits that could be easily lost when selecting just for absolute VSH expression.

Leaving the post as is with this header, as I believe it is accurate.
</post coffee edit>

<pre coffee clause>
This entire post is written minutes after rolling out of bed. I often don't make any sense until I have coffee. Often I can't even read anything right before I have coffee. I fully reserve the right to edit, delete or flat out deny this reply ever existed for up to 1 hour after I have coffee. To be blunt, I will probably ramble here in this post.
</pre coffee clause>

I respect you and what you do but I've got to disagree. I could be wrong, I know darn well I don't have the experience you have at all, but I believe I'm on the right track here. I think we need to pay more attention to the level of VSH behavior expressed in a colony, especially as I begin looking at the various "VSH" queens I have acquired, and reaching out to others for advice on this journey (Dr Harbo has been very helpful in my quest to test and isolate vsh, you were very helpful in regards to both VSH, regards to II, and regards to the BS floating around the industry).

Some, bred from known breeders, are not showing any difference from any other bees, some moderately, some are rocking along. Some obviously are expressing it to a high and acceptable degree. That one I bought from you is expressing it VERY well. Mite counts are consistently low. Her daughters? 50/50. Some are right up there with her, some quite well but no where near the parent, some don't appear to have any VSH behavior at all. I used various different drone sources with them. Some insemianted from other low mite count colonies, some were open mated.

Again I could be wrong, but I'm guessing this is a combination of how much VSH the mother colony is expressing combined with the random drones the daughters are mating with.

If the breeder is expressing to 75%, it is entirely possible for her offspring to expressing anywhere from 0% to 100%. Realistically anything below 50% is functionally worthless here.

We can't just look at if the hive has VSH or not. A hive can have VSH traits, it can express it at 25%, and you are darn near the margin of error. It is functionally impossible to tell the difference of a colony expressing at that level, verses at 0%. An a high expressing breeder queen can still produce 0% expressing daughters. We need to look at, and control the amount of VSH the breeder queens (And drone sources if those are controllable for the breeder) are expressing.

So what can we do here? We can buy islands and control the drone pool, but I'm not rich. We can II all of our colonies, I'm doing this for now but this isn't realistic for most. We can flood the drone pool, this is difficult at best, not going to work at worst.

Or

We can control how much of the VSH trait the queen is passing along to her daughters. If the breeder queen is expressing to 100%, at minimum her daughters will express 50%. Every single daughter colony should have a reasonable level of mite resistance.

If we are not controlling the % of VSH the mother colony has at the very least, there is no responsible or realistic way people should be selling the daughters are VSH queens. Especially once they go past that first generation from the breeder. I'm willing to bet some of those VSH queens I bought, are expressing 0% VSH behavior. My highest mite count colony, is the daughter of a VSH breeder queen.

I don't believe anything expressing lower than 50% should be sold as VSH. Only two ways to know on that, we test that individual colony (not realistic) or we know that the queen or/and the drone mother colonies are expressing at 100%.

My cut-off is 75%, I'm actively culling anything below that as I come across it. The colony is either broke down to a nuc and sold locally, or I take them to one of my out yards for honey production until I can requeen it. I am culling from a lot at this point, but I have multiple breeders expressing at that level, and have bought many more from others to test.

Ok I'm getting my @##@[email protected]#$ coffee now.


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## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

Wouldn't the "percent VSH" depend on whether there are multiple alleles that result in VSH behavior? I think if it is only one dominant allele, then it is either 100% or 0%. Otherwise you can have partial expression of the trait...


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



NHbeek said:


> Wouldn't the "percent VSH" depend on whether there are multiple alleles that result in VSH behavior? I think if it is only one dominant allele, then it is either 100% or 0%. Otherwise you can have partial expression of the trait...


It is at least two genes involved, partial email from last winter: 



> <snip>.... I think that there may be as *few as two genes involved in VSH*, and this varroa-resistant trait can be added to any bee population...<snip>[/QUOTE}
> 
> John Harbo
> Harbo Bee Company


You are also forgetting drones are contributing genetics to the mix. This isn't one mother and one father situation. I also believe we are looking at something obviously co-dominate, but that is just my gut feeling here, I have seen others with fancy letters behind their name suggest the same.


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## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

Considering the drones, there must be a continuum of expression from hive to hive. All the posters saying that the success of a treatment free operation is highly dependant on location leads me to believe that these traits are not strong or widespread enough for many beekeepers to rely on them. I just want to start with bees that are carrying at least some resistant genes and test -> treat -> requeen and see where I end up.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



adamf said:


> Jon, looking at VSH expression in offspring from VSH parents, I'd be careful with the concept of "% Expression". Inheritance for suites of traits, in this example, VSH, can take some time to be fully understood, and regarding VSH as a percentage can be misleading--although convenient.


Hi Adam!

I think jcase is speaking what you referred as "non-reproductive test".

To my knowledge the VSH quality is only measured by opening hundreds of cells and counting mites with or without offspring. How would a beekeeper otherwise know anything about the amount of VSH in his hives? 

I have in fact quite recently been teaching newcomers that VSH cannot be seen with eyes.

In Europe they count mites and "%Expression" is what they speak about. For instance: "69% mating station" in this summer open for everybody willing to take his/her mating nucs with queens there, "75% mating station" just for the ones participating in a project. The % refer the the drones used in the station.


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



Juhani Lunden said:


> Hi Adam!
> 
> I think jcase is speaking what you referred as "non-reproductive test".
> 
> ...


I'm quite sure adam was suggesting that we should be paying attention to more aspects than the % of expression. I just wasnt fully awake when replying.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

I'm curious how you all test and select for those colonies that are similarly under attack in the fall and are able to withstand the influx of mites. It's been found that it's not just the mites that are reproducing within each colony but the foragers that are returning with mites from their travels. Those colonies with high % of resistance still have mites coming in the front door. It's been explained as a slow drip, constant in the fall. 

https://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publication/?seqNo115=334517


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

Brandy said:


> I'm curious how you all test and select for those colonies that are similarly under attack in the fall and are able to withstand the influx of mites. It's been found that it's not just the mites that are reproducing within each colony but the foragers that are returning with mites from their travels. Those colonies with high % of resistance still have mites coming in the front door. It's been explained as a slow drip, constant in the fall.
> 
> https://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publication/?seqNo115=334517


http://www.harbobeeco.com/storage/measuring vsh April rev 2018pdf.pdf

I realize with incoming mites washes won't tell a complete story. This the benchmark in using, but at this point vsh is the only mechanism I'm testing for.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



Juhani Lunden said:


> Hi Adam!
> 
> To my knowledge the VSH quality is only measured by opening hundreds of cells and counting mites with or without offspring. How would a beekeeper otherwise know anything about the amount of VSH in his hives?
> 
> I have in fact quite recently been teaching newcomers that VSH cannot be seen with eyes.


VSH expression may be measured with the Non-reproductive test you and Jcase describe

AND with Successive mite washes over the season

AND selecting for Highest % infested brood removal.

The most accurate way to select for VSH and the underlying mite resistance giving colony robustness is to use as many VSH tests as possible

AND to select for good colony traits as well.




Juhani Lunden said:


> In Europe they count mites and "%Expression" is what they speak about. For instance: "69% mating station" in this summer open for everybody willing to take his/her mating nucs with queens there, "75% mating station" just for the ones participating in a project. The % refer the the drones used in the station.


The "%Expression" is based on the assumption that the underlying heredity is understood. Since it isn't yet, using "%Expression" can be misleading. However, it simplifies a complicated hereditary scenario and that's certainly convenient.

When you have some good VSH expression in a colony, and there is a mite load, you can see the bees uncapping and disrupting mites in cells.
You can also see non-reproductive mites in cells, but you have to dig for them.

Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



jcase said:


> I'm quite sure adam was suggesting that we should be paying attention to more aspects than the % of expression. I just wasnt fully awake when replying.


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



adamf said:


> AND to select for good colony traits as well.


This was and probably continues to be the stumbling block to wider dispersal of VSH expression. The original stock which was sent to USDA for evaluation and release of SMR had virtually no other desirable traits that I recall. Those colonies sat treatment free and alive for extended periods in commerical, migratory settings BUT they had no other economic value at that point in time. A decade later with a fair amount of insemination work the 2nd round that went in the mix for the eventual VSH release had begun to show generally desirable characteristics but not the extent that large operations would readily want them. Not sure what it will take to get enough change to see a widespread distribution


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



adamf said:


> VSH expression may be measured with the Non-reproductive test you and Jcase describe
> 
> AND with Successive mite washes over the season
> 
> ...


"AND" being the most important word. 

Sometimes VSH is spoken when only spotted brood is seen...

BTW: How do you select for "Highest % infested brood removal" ?

I mean how would you know they remove only infested brood, unless making Non -reproductive test?



Mite washes might give results which have no connection to VSH (= ability to detect mites with offspring)


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## Varroa Apiary (Mar 14, 2018)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



SiWolKe said:


> I have my losses because of commercial beekeeping of the last 30 years..


So are You sure that 30 years ago people didn't have so much losses? Is there any reliable statistics in Germany about losses 30 years ago and even in XIX century? I'm very interested in it.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

A statistic that has a real statement about the losses due to diseases before 1990 I have never seen.

If you look at the skep beekeeping time you see the managements to go into winter strong, many colonies were combined. Skeps are much better for overwintering because of the lower moisture level.
And with the killing of brood combs the colonies were renewed. ( Not that I promote the killing, but to freeze brood is just like that 

https://av.tib.eu/media/14378

The number of bee colonies went down in 1990, but because the Soviet Union collapsed and beekeepers were no longer government sponsored.

Then there were good and bad years, mass extinctions or few casualties, all in all the number of colonies increased because the keepers had medicines and beekeeping became attractive again.

It would be interesting to see a statistic of how much and which medicines are necessary today compared to 1990, the costs and the frequency of treatments, because that is the real problem, the decline in resistance despite higher density of colonies which could lead to a total crash of population if another disease is imported.


----------



## Varroa Apiary (Mar 14, 2018)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



SiWolKe said:


> A statistic that has a real statement about the losses due to diseases before 1990 I have never seen.


So this is hypothesis? 




> The number of bee colonies went down in 1990, but because the Soviet Union collapsed and beekeepers were no longer government sponsored.


Don't know how in Germany, but in Poland still it's quite a lot of state economic interventionism, protectionist policy in beekeeping, but I think that beekeeping generally in UE is subsidized by the state. More or less of course.



> all in all the number of colonies increased because the keepers had medicines and beekeeping became attractive again.


Interesting theory. Do you have anything to support this? Because I think, however, that treatment is a secondary and even a tertiary reason. The economic profitability of the activity is more important. I think that could be the main reason. Treating is cost money and time, too. Time is money, too.




> the decline in resistance despite higher density of colonies which could lead to a total crash of population if another disease is imported.


Who knows. Maybe dependent of the region. But what I read the bottleneck of selection is more likely to occur. This is main statement of the darwinian radical TF beekeeping, yes? "Let them die and make the bottleneck of selection."


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



Varroa Apiary said:


> So are You sure that 30 years ago people didn't have so much losses? Is there any reliable statistics in Germany about losses 30 years ago and even in XIX century? I'm very interested in it.


Got informations from a retired co-worker today that losses of 10% were seen as normal by his father´s generation. This without treatments.


----------



## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



Juhani Lunden said:


> "AND" being the most important word.
> 
> Sometimes VSH is spoken when only spotted brood is seen...
> 
> ...




Using tests or assays to determine the worthiness for selection is important, certainly. Testing for VSH helps when selecting for mite resistant breeding stock.

However, keep in mind that the goal of breeding is to pull out of the random assortment of trait combinations that make the phenotype, the _genetic potential_ for desired phenotypes. 

If the goal in a breeding program is to have hardy healthy bees that one may manage "treatment free", testing for VSH is one of several selection criteria.

That's where the "AND" from my previous post comes in. Selection requires good test results AND bees that one feels are good. If one only selects for bees that have very high VSH expression

one will have that, but the bees might not be that nice/pleasant to work with.


Using VSH testing is a selection tool. If you combine VSH testing (use a few of the tests: the url for the tests have been posted to beesource many times) with other selection tests, you'll see some form of progress.

The reality of selection's practical application is that is works more effectively in decent sized populations. Selection pools that are larger, will have a higher probability of more desirable selection candidates.


Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


----------



## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

I replaced entirety of my home yard with various high expressing vsh lines. It is fairly difficult to find any real mite population. VSH works, when it is really VSH. Problem is, so few people are testing, many buy a single breeder queen and go generations with her daughters open mating, not managing drone population and continuing to claim vsh. Pretty sure this is where a lot of the "VSH doesnt work" comes from.

With the exception of the wsu caucasian yard, I'm replacing them all with VSH this year. Not having to stress on the mite losses is wonderful.

The non reproductive mite assay is not that bad, except when your mite population is low. We sat down and ran the assay on one of my vsh breeder queens (won't mention who she came from, if they want to they are free to). John Harbo has an easy to ready paper on his site regarding the assay.

150 cells inspected, one mite family found, 0 other mites found 1/2cup alcohol wash 0 mites found. Tentative 75% score, but not enough mites to give her a solid score. Very happy, will re-assay in fall to see if I can get enough data for an actual score.

Do note, the 'poor brood pattern' is not VSH in action here, it is because they plugged the entire bottom box full of pollen, every darn cell that isn't capped brood has pollen in it, or just emerged.


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



adamf said:


> Selection requires good test results AND bees that one feels are good.


You did not answer my question:

how do you select for "Highest % infested brood removal" ? 

Is it the same as Non-reproductive test or something else?


----------



## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



Juhani Lunden said:


> You did not answer my question:
> 
> how do you select for "Highest % infested brood removal" ?
> 
> Is it the same as Non-reproductive test or something else?


Too time consuming imo, counting ratio of non reproductive:reproductive, and the overall real world effects (alcohol wash) are better. Both more realistic, and less time consuming to do


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

It makes sense to have multiple traits within a population. But after that, black boxing, seeing which hives do well in terms of production and survival, then testing to see what traits come to the fore. It should also be known that a tests over a year probably don't explain the overall dynamic of a system over multiple years. The kinds of mite pressure could very well vary between years and within a year. It also depends on how dynamic the adaptive environment is. Lots of bee movement coupled with the introduction of new pathogen variants, could lead to bees with low thresholds of mite tolerance. But this would be at a cost in terms of production. The optimal level of mites may not be near zero in fall given a more stable pathogen environment. We are assuming much in this discussion.


----------



## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



Juhani Lunden said:


> You did not answer my question:
> 
> how do you select for "Highest % infested brood removal" ?
> 
> Is it the same as Non-reproductive test or something else?


Try a friendly search for the link to VSH testing. I've posted it on here a few times.
Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



adamf said:


> Try a friendly search for the link to VSH testing. I've posted it on here a few times.
> Adam
> http://vpqueenbees.com


Wow, I only asked yes/no.


----------



## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

I ended up buying 'treatment free russians' because they were the same price as normal queens - I wouldnt be any worse off if they didnt suppress mites. After doing a mite wash of all the hives in my untreated yard, the strongest three hives are currently at a 1% mite infection. The other hives had 0.0 - 0.1% mite infection, but they have been split preemptively or swarmed 2-3 times each. I'm fairly confident that most wont hit mite treatment threshold before winter, but instead of treating for mites I now have to feed them a ton of sugar. Im unsure how to feel about their performance so far. It seems likely that these bees were surviving with no chemical treatments in part due to excessive swarming behavior.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

NH how did you come up with the 0.1% number?
unless my math is wonky, thats an impractical large sample size.. Ie 1 mite in wash of 1,000 bees

One mite in a wash of 300 (1/2 cup of bees) is 0.33%
3 mites in a wash of 300 is 1%


----------



## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

Yeah thats true. Mental math mistake. They were either 1 or 0 mites per 300


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



NHbeek said:


> I ended up buying 'treatment free russians' because they were the same price as normal queens - I wouldnt be any worse off if they didnt suppress mites. After doing a mite wash of all the hives in my untreated yard, the strongest three hives are currently at a 1% mite infection. The other hives had 0.0 - 0.1% mite infection, but they have been split preemptively or swarmed 2-3 times each. I'm fairly confident that most wont hit mite treatment threshold before winter, but instead of treating for mites I now have to feed them a ton of sugar. Im unsure how to feel about their performance so far. It seems likely that these bees were surviving with no chemical treatments in part due to excessive swarming behavior.


Most bees that "perform" are bred to raise bees, gather honey and not be mean. Of course you have to treat them as they don't do anything else. Lots of perfectly good bees are thrown away because they don't perform well when introduced to a new environment. If you want mite resistant bees that perform, you need to select on an ongoing basis. I got Saskatraz queens at the beginning and the verdict by the local veteran beekeeper is that they don't build fast enough in the spring for our climate. That was true the first generation, but by selecting the strongest and raising queens from them, production and vigor had increased each generation. A person needs to either by letting nature select them, then selecting for production, or doing the entire selection process your self. Also keep in mind that mite thresholds are designed for bees that aren't resistant. To find out what mite thresholds actually are for TF bees in your area, you need to let nature take its course and see where they are at in spring. By all means count mites and take out ridiculously high mite ridden hives, but winter survival and a strong spring cluster is more dependable metric. If you have enough hives you can select from here for low mite counts as well. 

Perhaps try experimenting with your space management. I give my bees space earlier than many of my local keeps, and Saskatraz does have some Russian in them. Mostly it seems to work. Again selection in important.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

NH that begs the question... what were the rolls on the "the strongest three hives are currently at a 1% mite infection."
3 per 300?


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

Are there studies of different varroa resistant breeds, what kind is the population curve of mites? VSH, Primorski, Purdue mite biters etc.

I mean is there somekind of period when mite numbers go up (maybe 5%?), after which the bees react and trow mites out. Or has some stock another strategy: mite level stays stable all season(maybe 1-2%)? 

From Fernando de Noronja (?) there is a study, the levels have come down during several decades, but I don´t remember if that study said anything about seasonal variation.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

like many of the studys on isolated populations, when exposed to mainstream mites and virus they colaspe 



> the honey bee population in Fernando de Noronha has thus far evaded the catastrophic consequences of DWV and Varroa because the incredibly small and isolated population size (ca. 20–40 colonies) has meant that there hasn’t yet been sufficient time for a virulent variant to have become established in a colony. The estimated mite populations in the colonies would no-doubt result in the rapid death of the colonies if a virulent genotype of DWV was to emerge, since up to 42% of the worker brood can be infested by Varroa, levels never observed in healthy hives of European honey bees. Moreover it is just a matter of time before an overt outbreak of a virulent variant appears that has the capability to spell disaster for the bees of Fernando de Noronha. It also explains why when in 1997 six queens were transferred from Fernando de Noronha to Germany to head colonies and study whether heritable hygienic behaviour is responsible for their Varroa tolerance31. Although no difference in hygienic abilities compared to the local population were found indicating *no genetic basis for the tolerance is present*. These colonies all died during the winter or early spring (Peter Rosenkranz, personal communication) since the bees and mites would for the first time be exposed to the virulent DWV strains5,32 circulating in the local bee population


Brettella,Martin 2107 Oldest Varroa tolerant honey bee population provides insight into the origins of the global decline of honey beeshttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5385554/

In the US, breeds don't realy exist, the lack of-Control over mating, importation of fresh breed genetics for about 100 years, and breed standards means bees have been selected for color and traits, not necessarily genetic breeds.. the one main exception might be stock coming from a certified Russian breeder. 
yes there are some II lines like the mite biters but they are not breeds per say 
long and short in the US... its going to matter more on what the breeder has selected for, less on the name given it


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



msl said:


> yes there are some II lines like the mite biters but they are not breeds per say
> long and short in the US... its going to matter more on what the breeder has selected for, less on the name given it


Ok, lets not get stuck to words/names and take VSH for an example. Of course the original has now evolved in the hands of hundreds of breeders, but was there originally, right after in Harris and Harbos breeding work, studies how is the mite population dynamics going: up and down or stedy all year round, how high were the infestation rates etc.

Here is one of Primorski, fairly old one, but their mite numbers are going up, so it seems it is not going to level back to normal.
https://www.ars.usda.gov/southeast-...lti-state-field-trials-of-russian-honey-bees/


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

Here is another one:
Italians and Russians June 1998 to November 1999

All Italians died, three Russians. Mite levels in the Russian hives went up to 4000 before they started to decline.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...u5-BJvXcS8SExZJzXebhqVGGdp1QNZBwXeZmCICtg#pff


----------



## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



msl said:


> NH that begs the question... what were the rolls on the "the strongest three hives are currently at a 1% mite infection."
> 3 per 300?


Yes. 

Strong hives: 3/300, weak hives 0 or 1 / 300


----------



## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

Mite counts like that look great! Just to confirm, those were taken from bees on brood comb, not the honey storage area, and was done with an alcohol wash? And your bees have built up to a full deep and at least half of a second?

Otherwise.... using the powdered sugar shake, you can underestimate easily. Taking from older bees, you can also miss enough mites that you don't get a true picture. And if the hive is smaller, they won't have had as much brood emerge, which means they won't have had as many opportunities for mite reproduction, which will result in a low mite count but begs the question about why the hive is small. Hives that have European Foul Brood for example, have low mite counts... but they also have spotty brood and at most 1 deep of bees (maybe 5 frames top and bottom covered). 

If none of the above are true, then congrats, good stock and not much mite pressure (so far) from confused foragers from elsewhere, or your hives robbing. 

The need to feed is common, and does not reflect anything poorly on your hives. The amount of brood (at least 8 frames with brood, unless it's a dearth and you aren't feeding) and number of bees (majority of both boxes covered in bees by now, assuming you've been feeding) tells you the queen quality - when she's getting fed. Most first year hives need fed massive amounts of sugar water to draw out their double deeps. If they are started after the main flow, or the flow is shortened (I know OH was hit hard in May with 90s, which dried up locust trees, and tulip poplar was rained out....) then we have to step in.

Only 10% of feral swarms successfully find a home and make it through to winter, and they do it with half the space and half the bees. We want honey, so we need the queen maxed out on brood rearing and the double deeps full of bees. 

Don't relax now - check again in a month, and ideally in late october too, to see if your hive went a-robbing and picked up hitchhikers.  I am just doing OAV in early Nov to be better safe than sorry. ;/


----------



## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



trishbookworm said:


> Mite counts like that look great! Just to confirm, those were taken from bees on brood comb, not the honey storage area, and was done with an alcohol wash? And your bees have built up to a full deep and at least half of a second?
> /


I shook the bees off a couple open brood combs, mixed them around and got my half cup, dumped the remaining bees back in the hive and did a standard isopropanol wash. The big hives have been running a little under two deeps of brood for most of the year, and I will probably get a super or two of honey off them depending on how the next two months go. The hives that I had to split repeatedly or swarmed have been building up and have very little honey at the moment but do have an insane amount of brood currently.

The lack of mite pressure is an interesting point. As far as I know, there are no other beekeepers within flying distance.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

sounds very promising nhbeek. 

what is the origin of your bees?


----------



## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

The majority are from Sam Comfort or are daughters of those queens. Two queens came from Warm Colors Apiary and last month I bought a queen from Mcfarline Apiary.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

:thumbsup:

from what i can gather on the web sam and tim are completely treatment free and wca 'minimizes' the use of treatments.

your mite counts are encouraging.

it would be great to have more reporting from treatment free beekeepers located in the northeastern u.s.

if you are so inclined please consider starting a thread chronicling your experience nhbeek.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



> your mite counts are encouraging.


agreeded, but your not out of the woods yet, keep an eye on them


----------



## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

I will most certainly be testing again in september and october. The plan is to treat if mites get over 2% because a hive needs to be in excellent health to even have a chance to overwinter.



squarepeg said:


> it would be great to have more reporting from treatment free beekeepers located in the northeastern u.s.
> 
> if you are so inclined please consider starting a thread chronicling your experience nhbeek.


I would love to start a thread when I have something more to add.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



NHbeek said:


> The plan is to treat if mites get over 2% because a hive needs to be in excellent health to even have a chance to overwinter.


was this your approach last winter? if yes did you have any colonies below threshold that were left untreated and survived winter?




NHbeek said:


> I would love to start a thread when I have something more to add.


sounds good, thanks!


----------



## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

Typically I end up doing several treatments on the buckfast/italian stock I have. They always need treatment around this time of year.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

understood nhbeek.

it sounds like you've got a nice assortment of genetics there.

looking forward to hearing how it all plays out for you.


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



Juhani Lunden said:


> Are there studies of different varroa resistant breeds, what kind is the population curve of mites? VSH, Primorski, Purdue mite biters etc.
> 
> I mean is there somekind of period when mite numbers go up (maybe 5%?), after which the bees react and trow mites out. Or has some stock another strategy: mite level stays stable all season(maybe 1-2%)?
> 
> From Fernando de Noronja (?) there is a study, the levels have come down during several decades, but I don´t remember if that study said anything about seasonal variation.





msl said:


> Brettella,Martin 2107 Oldest Varroa tolerant honey bee population provides insight into the origins of the global decline of honey beeshttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5385554/


My memory failed, they write about seasonal variation in mite population.
Quote of the study:
"The infestation levels of sealed brood and adult workers were variable; both between colonies and month of collection (Fig. 3a) as previously found. All colonies were infested, with adult bee infestation levels much lower (1–2%) than found in the worker (10–20%) or drone (23–38%) brood cells. In May 2016, the six study colonies contained an average of 8400 (±2865 SD; range 4684–11839) sealed brood cells, 13894 (±4560 SD; range 7655–19982) adult bees and 1749 (±1565 SD; range 290–4647) mites per colony (Fig. 3b)."

Worker brood infestation varied between 10% ( July 2015) and 20% (May 2016). Adult bee infestation varied from 1 to 2%. 

I remember reading that with Primorski they have evolved to a different direction: there are more mites on adult bees and less mites in brood cells compared to "normal bees". And from the study I linked (in my post number 56) one could suspect that a lot of seasonal variation (Primorski mite numbers went up to 4000 before "anything happend".
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00891899/document

Interesting to notice that mite numbers went up until June, and after that started to decline. Similar to my personal experience.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



> Interesting to notice that mite numbers went up until June, and after that started to decline. Similar to my personal experience


Are you flipping the seasons? June is there winter/late fall. I am going to guess the drop in mites is do to a drop in brood rearing do to lack of forage
"_The climate of the archipelago of Fernando de Noronha, located near the northeast coast of Brazil, is tropical, hot all year round, with a dry season from August to January, and a rainy season from February to July. ... The driest period, in which it rarely rains, runs from September to December._" 
https://www.climatestotravel.com/climate/brazil/fernando-de-noronha


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



msl said:


> Are you flipping the seasons? June is there winter/late fall.


I meant the Rinderer 2001a paper, about Primorski.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

ahh got ya


----------



## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

I was hired to try and save/treat some hives that were established from packages in the spring. A few had already perished and the ground was covered in workers with DMV and numerous mites. The situation inside most of the hives was even worse. The interesting thing is one hive, despite the situation going on around it, was in perfect shape with no visible DWV or mites and beautiful brood. If it makes it through winter I will ask if I can graft from it in the spring.


----------



## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

The majority of my treatment free hives, have had the typical 'mite explosion' over the last month. Before I blasted them with oav this morning they averaged 3-4% mite infection. I still have a handful of colonies that are from other breeders and still have low mite counts, but I cant rate their resistance because they were previously treated colonies that were requeened this summer. The experiment with resistant stock, for this year atleast, is a failure.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

did you see any diseased brood, dwv, or crawlers in the hives that were treated?


----------



## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



squarepeg said:


> did you see any diseased brood, dwv, or crawlers in the hives that were treated?


no actually, I have not seen a single case of dwv this year. The hives seem very healthy and the population is peaking, but the mite counts indicate I was on the verge of mite outs.


----------



## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

"I spend more than 4 hours talking privately about bees with him on the conference being part of a little group interested. He is most generous with all you want to know and how his bees fare in different locations."


I'm sure that was the highlight of his day.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



NHbeek said:


> Typically I end up doing several treatments on the buckfast/italian stock I have. They always need treatment around this time of year.





> The majority of my treatment free hives, have had the typical 'mite explosion' over the last month. Before I blasted them with oav this morning they averaged 3-4% mite infection. I still have a handful of colonies that are from other breeders and still have low mite counts, but I cant rate their resistance because they were previously treated colonies that were requeened this summer. The experiment with resistant stock, for this year atleast, is a failure.





> no actually, I have not seen a single case of dwv this year. The hives seem very healthy and the population is peaking, but the mite counts indicate I was on the verge of mite outs.


how did you monitor and how often?
Are they placed near treated hives?
Is there drift? When did you treat your treated hives?
What comb are they on? Treated? 
Are they harvested like the others?


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



NHbeek said:


> no actually, I have not seen a single case of dwv this year. The hives seem very healthy and the population is peaking, but the mite counts indicate I was on the verge of mite outs.


are you basing your treatment threshold on your own experience or using what is recommended for your location?


----------



## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



SiWolKe said:


> how did you monitor and how often?
> Are they placed near treated hives?
> Is there drift? When did you treat your treated hives?
> What comb are they on? Treated?
> Are they harvested like the others?


1) I monitor with alcohol washes, about every month.
2) No, they are pretty isolated as far as I am aware. 
3) treated hives are about 15 miles away so I dont think it affects these ones.
4) comb is a mixture of foundationless they drew out this year, and some came with used hives I purchased from a failed treatment free beekeeper who killed 30 hives (100%) last winter.
5) there is not going to be a harvest this year because of their swarming and swarm prevention splits.


----------



## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

Recommendation is as close to 0% infection as humanly possible going into winter. These mite levels (3 -4%) is the highest recommended treatment threshold for summer.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



NHbeek said:


> Recommendation is as close to 0% infection as humanly possible going into winter. These mite levels (3 -4%) is the highest recommended treatment threshold for summer.


What was your count?



> The plan is to treat if mites get over 2% because a hive needs to be in excellent health to even have a chance to overwinter.


In this case I don´t think you will ever be treatment free.
Thanks for answering my questions above.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7664317,-71.4648979,115902m/data=!3m1!1e3

it may be possible but it may take time. with some luck and careful selection nhbeek may end up with a strain that can make it through the harsh winter in nh even after carrying more of a mite load in the fall.

if you zoom out on the terrain map you will see that the area around nashau is very wooded.

jmho, but if i were looking for the best varroa resistant breed for nh, i would search those wooded lands for overwintered feral survivors.

not finding any ferals surviving winter would suggest to me that the long winters there may be a little more than the european honey bee can easily thrive through, that the short season and/or limited foraging opportunities aren't quite enough to support a typical sized colony to easily reach wintering strength, or perhaps that there aren't many large cavities in the trees having the volume necessary to support a large enough colony along with adequate honey stores for wintering there.

tim ives is having tf success slightly farther south in indiana by overwintering strong triple 10 frame deeps. he also happens to have nectar availability that is off the charts which allows him to not use syrup and still get 200 - 300 lb harvests. 

i might consider the triple deep set up and some of that stock if i were located in the north to see if those bees with that type management yielded similar results.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



> with some luck and careful selection


I consider this a possibility for all beekeepers if they do not fear the work.

But the threshold nh gives himself seems to be too low IME. It would be interesting to see how high the mite infestation in feral swarms is.

Purchased "resistant" queen stock does not mean a lower mite count automatically, many factors play a role. Such stock IMO can be evaluated the next season if they are not treated and survive the first winter, our group experienced the F1 as much better after some adaptation happened. But you have to risk tf first and overwinter the F0.

I would use the local threshold and give the bees some % more. I would go for 5%. or treat if some defect worker bees are observed earlier. But only this colony. Shift the queen or use it elsewhere.

When I started tf I was going bond and watched the crawlers and mites on bees in a kind of naive way, thought the bees, untreated would be able to purify the hive.
But no. Not always. But some. Why that is I don´t know yet. It´s genetics or other circumstances. Working on it.

The danger starts when a colony shows defect worker bees. The first of them means : over the threshold.
Threshold of tf stock is much higher than local treated stock but maybe lower than ferals anyway. IMO. Personal experience.

I´m much more careful with monitoring and taking action now.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*

with the handful of late season alcohol washes i have done i am seeing 8% to 14% infestation rates that do not result in collapse.

the winters here are relatively mild however. there are scattered opportunities for cleansing flights and even some early tree pollens sometimes in mid to late january.

t makes me wonder if there is something special about the nutrition here that perhaps results in particularly good fat bodies. i am going to communicate with the research community about the possibility for looking into that.


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## NHbeek (Nov 1, 2017)

*Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed*



squarepeg said:


> with the handful of late season alcohol washes i have done i am seeing 8% to 14% infestation rates that do not result in collapse.
> 
> the winters here are relatively mild however. there are scattered opportunities for cleansing flights and even some early tree pollens sometimes in mid to late january.
> 
> t makes me wonder if there is something special about the nutrition here that perhaps results in particularly good fat bodies. i am going to communicate with the research community about the possibility for looking into that.


You have more leeway with mite counts than I do. However I think the long winter and spring splits can reset my mite counts to near zero, if only the bees can keep them down through the fall.



squarepeg said:


> jmho, but if i were looking for the best varroa resistant breed for nh, i would search those wooded lands for overwintered feral survivors.
> 
> not finding any ferals surviving winter would suggest to me that the long winters there may be a little more than the european honey bee can easily thrive through, that the short season and/or limited foraging opportunities aren't quite enough to support a typical sized colony to easily reach wintering strength, or perhaps that there aren't many large cavities in the trees having the volume necessary to support a large enough colony along with adequate honey stores for wintering there.


There are rumors of feral AMMs in the area. New England kind of sucks for beekeeping, we dont get the enormous nectar flows that people to the west get, but still have the terrible winter. Some people claim to get 100lbs average, so perhaps I ought to seek out better yards.



SiWolKe said:


> What was your count?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


mites ranged from 9-15 per 300 bees in all colonies but one. The one colony actually went from 8 mites per 300 bees before the tf queen and is now down to 0, but it was started from a really small nuc in the summer...


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