# How Many Beekeepers Using Top Bar Hives?



## BeeCulture

The question keeps getting asked by people interested in top bar hives but want to know if there is a solid support group available...I see many here and have followed the conversations, but do not have a feel for how many of you there are...and the same question is asked by those interested in supporting a group of beekeepers with these hives...so...those that want to, and those that want to help want to know. Anybody have an idea?


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## kevinhnc

I'm a new Top Bar Hive user...first hive ever, installed April 1, 2001. They're doing great! No problems so far.


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## Adam Foster Collins

I am beginning my second year with tbh's. My bees have successfully wintered here in Nova Scotia through an average winter, even though they suffered heavy mite loads through my inexperience.

I find the tbh community to be made up mostly of inexperienced beeks. Therefore good tbh-specific information can be hard to find when you need it. Most things have to be "translated" to the tbh, and that tends to add that much uncertainty. Beyond that, the hives vary so much from one person to the next, and there is a lack of tried-and-true experience out there in a lot of regions, over a lot of time.

I feel that the tbh IS a great way for someone to learn a lot about bees - because of the steep learning curve and lack of strong communities in most geographical regions. But you tend to learn "the hard way", so it is not great for people that want things to be easy. The hive itself is the only simple part.

From there, I think they are pretty hands-on.

Adam


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## milena

I love using TBH. I took my bee management plan from Michael Bush's site. So far so good. I don't seem to have ANY varroa. I suspect this happened because my first Queen died, leading to a broodless period last summer while I waited for my new Queen. I do get SHB and wax moths though. The bees are managing them so far. (Gosh I hate those SHBs.)

It is rather isolating though. I feel like a pariah. The local association doesn't seem to endorse TBH. One guy refused to sell me bees! Because he felt so strongly anti-tbh. 

I don't have a mentor; just the internet and books. You tube was a help. 

But the bees are thriving despite my fumbling.


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## FindlayBee

A great website and forum on top bar hives is www.biobees.com. Actually found it before I found beesource.com. However, I spend my time here on beesource. Probably should get over to biobees and start posting.


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## forgeblast

I can give a + to biobees also. They have some very knowlegable people from all over the world. 
They also have a very good warre group.


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## chauktaw

This will be my first year with bees, and I am doing a Warre hive, which falls into a style of TBH. I found little support from our local bee club as their answer to everything is medicate, medicate, medicate. 
My wife and I take a more natural approach, our pig acts like a pig and roams, our horse,cow and llamas eat nothing but the grass and hay, which is the only feed our garden recieves, so I have had to "learn" thru books and internet boards. Biobees is good, Michael Bush is good, but I am finding that what I am reading on BeeSource is not hard to apply to the TBH, especially the Warre.


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## Merlinspop

forgeblast said:


> I can give a + to biobees also. They have some very knowlegable people from all over the world.


I agree, BUT, if you stray from Phil's plans and book, they do treat you a bit differently. Like the cousin who got caught double dipping in the guacamole at the last family picnic. You're still family, but they look at ya kinda funny. Still, a very good resource.


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## the doc

This is my second year and I keep langstroth and kenyan TB hives. I myself like the exploring the different approaches to manage both, and the advantages and disadvantages of both. 

As far as medicating, I dont think the box design has much to do with it. The package bees I had built nice foundationless hives in both styles and ended with good stores. The queens were not the greatest however. I didn't medicate or even treat, and lost both to starvation with honey right next to them. Both hives had high mite counts, but the langstroth was relatively higher.

I like the kenyan top bar - it is a great design. HOwever there is something to be said for the utility of the langstroth design with moveable frames. So I will continue to keep both


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## rlw4342

Adam, could you share what you would have done differently reference your 'inexperience' as related to heavy mite loads.... I've made it to the second year and did not experience any problems except small hive beetles. Should we be doing something to prevent mites? Thanks..


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## David LaFerney

My third year keeping bees and my first year with a KTBH. I kind of cheated, because I had about 10 top bars that I used in my lang hives last year fully drawn with comb. Trimmed it a little and added a queen. They're doing fine in there so far - nice straight comb.

Actually it's kind of handy, because if I need brood, or pollen or something for another hive I can go straight to it in the long hive (end entrance) can't really do that with my other hives. Pollen right inside the door, brood behind that, honey in the back - like clockwork.


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## Michael Bush

I built one off of the basic design of the Greek basket hive but out of wood back in about 1976 or so. Built some more back in about 2002 and have had bees in those since.


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## Michael Palmer

Kim, write to Wendy Booth in NH. She's the Pres of NH Beekeepers. You probably have her contact info? They formed a top bar hive group last summer. Received a $16,000 grant. Spent $14,000 on top bar hives from Maine. I sat in on their meeting and listened to the reports. Nearly all failed to make the winter. Not a happy group. Lot of money spent to re-invent the wheel...only to come up with a square wheel.


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## Michael Bush

My winters aren't much different than Vermont and my top bar hives are still doing fine. I wonder how the losses of newbies their first winter in top bar hives compares with newbies their first winter in Langstroth hives that same winter.


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## sqkcrk

Have you asked Wyant Mangum about this?


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## FindlayBee

I went into winter with 5 top bar hives. I came out of winter with 3. I expected to loose 2 hives over the winter. However, the one small hive I expected to loose is doing well, the hive I was betting on making it for sure died, and the other hive I expected to loose did die, but not from starvation, but an animal invasion (Hive bottom was torn off and the combs pulled out and eaten).


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## Oldtimer

Yes that's often the way, because the bigger hive was able to support a bigger mite population. When colony size drops for the winter, there's more mites to focus on less bees, the colony collapses.

I'm often noticing that most people with TBH's seem to be in their first or second year. Why is that?


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## Merlinspop

Oldtimer said:


> I'm often noticing that most people with TBH's seem to be in their first or second year. Why is that?


I'll take a guess and say more and more hobbyists are starting up every year, with a percentage of them choosing TBHs (me, for example). Also, after successfully keeping any sort of hive for a couple years, I'd imagine that most folks stop feeling the need to spend a lot of time on forums asking questions. Only the dedicated few remain to help the neophytes (thanks, Mr. Bush!).


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## milena

Oldtimer said:


> I'm often noticing that most people with TBH's seem to be in their first or second year. Why is that?


I think there is increased interest in bees due to the increasingly publicized losses of the world's bee populations. I know I generally feel pretty powerless to affect change in the world. Apart from recycling, gardening, feeding native birds (and keeping my cat INside!) ... what can I really DO for the earth? Keeping just one hive healthy seemed like something I could handle. 

It was always there in the back of my mind when some miner/digger bees started making my yard their home. Then one day I was in my shed and heard a strange humming. Sounded almost electrical; my shed has no power. I dropped something heavy on the floor and the hum became louder and kind of angry. The hairs on the back of my neck stood up. I beat a hasty retreat, but for some reason at that moment I started looking into keeping honey bees. (Never saw those bees btw). 

When I started googling, I don't remember exactly how I found it, but my researches lead to top bar hives. As I started looking at it, it made sense to me. Somehow I found the Bush bees site and that was it for me. As I've posted elsewhere, I didn't get much encouragement from existing beeks but.... I am really glad it worked out. I'm getting into Mason bees now too. Interest in pollinators has now led me to a new interest in bats and bat houses. 

Bees bring great joy to my life. They are by far the easiest animal dependent I've ever shared my home with. 

And I think it's reassuring to me - as long as my slugs, toads, snakes and bees are alive in my yard, then my little corner of the ecosystem can't be in THAT bad of shape, can it? 

Next on the list - solar power!


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## Adam Foster Collins

I think the reason so many tbh's are in their first or second year is because it's simply a very recent resurgence of interest in them. Many people have only discovered them as an option in the last few years. 10 years ago, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a tbh.

Adam


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## tommyt

I have 2
I full of Gang Busters the other empty and waiting.
I ended up putting a super on the gang busters
The reason............
The tb was made small 15 bars, I put a small cut out in it 
I had plans to move them to the large 4 footer,but never made it. 
Now the bottom 15 are full of brood and super is honey and pollen
I will add another super as soon as 80% of this one is full 
its about 50% as of yesterday

Tommyt


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## Benjaminkeith

I got the urge to keep bees winter 2009 and in the spring bought 4 “Strong” Lang hives at $100 a piece. I tried to connect with the group locally but they all seemed very my way or the high way. I lost 2 before the winter and 1 during the winter. I did my first cut out in September 2010 and placed 2 hives in a Bio Bees type top bar and they did and are doing great, made it through winter with only a little feeding and looking to split them here in a few weeks.

I can see the benefits to a Lang hive for massive production, but at what cost. I spent $28 to build a TBH that is doing what I want it to do there is so much information online, and frankly what are you going to mess up? Make sure they are dry and have some food and watch them go. They have mites, so, they are doing well. They lived in a barn for 20 years with out anyone managing them why do they need me now. 

I think that all types of hives have strengths and weaknesses. I would not want to run a 1000 hive migratory pollination business with top bar hives, but I would not want to do that anyway. Every one has different plans for their hives, mine is to have fun, and I don’t think it is necessary for some old guys in a club to tell me that I will never succeed just because I don’t want to spend tons of money on equipment and medications.

The Top Bar hive is something that can and should be used as a tool to get more people in to keeping bees and not something to be looked down on just because it does not fit the Lang “Norm.” Which to my understanding from what I have read here is sometimes not so rosy. So what if they die, I can get more. I think they stand just as good of a chance, if not better then any other type of hive I might get.


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## SteveBee

I bought a TBH last summer, started it in July, and fed till fall. It came thru the winter and was booming. It swarmed, and I caught the swarm and installed them in a new TBH. The new hive has drawn 11 bars of comb in nine days and have capped brood. I captured another swarm and installed them in a new TBH at my friend's house, and it has done the same thing, 11 full combs. I installed 3 lb. packages in two more TBH's at my house day before yesterday, and they're active. I also helped install two packages in another friends TBHs the same day and another package in my sister's TBH yesterday. So, we have eight TBHs to watch and learn from. We direct-released all the queens without apparent problems. I also installed two packages in 3 frame medium Langs. Direct-released the queen in one and left her in the cage on the other. Within 24 hours, the bees had released her.


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## camero7

I had 3 TBH's. Winter before last one didn't survive and the other 2 were so weak after the winter that I combined them. Last winter both died. I gave them away to an aspiring beek. Hope she has better luck that I did.

I'm pretty much committed to Langs now.


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## mmiller

I wintered 3 TBH's this year. All of them are doing great. They are growing in numbers fast this spring and looking really healthy. 2 of them didn't need any assistance with feeding since last spring when I intalled the packages. The 3rd one was running low on stores in Feb and I fed with fondant and have now started with 1:1 syrup. They have no stores what-so-ever. I expect to split all three of these into 3 more TBH's. I also purchased 4 packages this year and place 2 in TBH's and 2 into Langs. That gives me 8 TBH's and 2 Langs. 

I love the TBH's. I haven't seen any issues with them not being able to get to food stores in the winter. My biggest concern is around swarming. All 3 hives swarmed on me last year.:scratch: I willl be more diligent in preventing that this year by keeping the brood area more open. We shall see.

Mike


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## Oldtimer

Nice post Milena, makes me feel like coming to visit your little piece of the world!

And Tommyt, so it's working out well with the super! Sounds awesome! Did you use comb foundation? If not, how did you encourage them up into it? Any chance of a pic or two?


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## Delta Bay

I think some of the issue with a large number of new beeks losing their hives the first winter is they are trying to make a difference and go the treatment free route with bees that are from treated outfits. From what I've seen from my own bees it is a process of about three years to clean the chemicals and to reverse the effects from them. So right from the start the odds are against them that their bees will make it into the next year.



> Research Expands Understanding of Bee Health
> 
> Effects on development cascade through hive
> 
> Some of the consequences to honey bees that Wu found were delayed larval development and a shortened adult lifespan, which can result indirectly in premature shifts in hive roles and foraging activity.
> 
> Shortened bee lifespans dramatically change the dynamic of a hive. According to Sheppard, foragers are the bees that provide pollination and bring food back to a hive.
> 
> “A bee’s life span as a forager is on average only the last eight days of its life,” he said. “This research shows that, if raised with pesticide residues in the brood comb, an individual’s foraging life span is shortened by four days, a 50 percent cut.”
> 
> If there are not sufficient foragers, the colony makes up the deficit by using younger bees that are not physiologically ready. The result is a negative cascade through the hive all the way down to the larval bees because individual nurse bees must prematurely move toward foraging behavior and stop feeding larvae, Sheppard said.
> 
> In addition, according to Wu’s study, longer development time for bees may provide a reproductive advantage for Varroa destructor mites. Varroa mites are parasites that live in hives and prey on honey bees. The extended bee developmental period enables these mites to produce more offspring that devastate hives.
> 
> Wu’s research recently was published in the peer-reviewed online journal PLoS One. Find it at http://bit.ly/i3g31E. Learn more about entomology research at WSU by visiting http://bit.ly/OrVNa.


So you can imagine the outcome when first taking your bees of the chemicals.

Now that I'm into my fifth year and had 6 of 7 come through the winter with two of them now in their third year and building up nicely, I can say they are much healthier today than in the beginning. I don't think it is due to breeding but more to do with giving my bees the time to get to a clean system.


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## Oldtimer

Quote from the article - “A bee’s life span as a forager is on average only the last eight days of its life,” he said. End Quote.

That part of the article at least, is incorrect by several multiples.

I agree (more or less), with the general thrust of the article, but unless that 8 day thing was a typo, I'd have to question whatever method they used for their research.

And just incase anyone does not believe me about them living more than 8 days as a forager, I know they do from both personal experience plus other research. 

When I'm teaching queen breeding trainees to mark queens, we do it by plucking returning foragers from the entrance board of a hive, and people put a colored dot on them. I'll see those bees for many weeks and extending into months, afterwards. Another interesting thing, as an aside, is it is surprising how many of those marked bees I'll see in OTHER hives. amazing how much drift actually goes on in an apiary.


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## Beeheck

New to beekeeping and TBH's. Started one with a package on April 13th and going strong. Have a 2nd one on the property which is owned by a friend. Also installed on the 13th. I have built some supers as an experiment and will see if I have a good first year I can move them up into them this summer. Really enjoying this experience and watching their activities.
Bruce


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## Beethinking

Overwintered 11 horizontal top bar hives this past winter. Lost 2. Others are very strong at this point. Had 100% survival with my Warres at the same time. No chemical treatments. 

Cheers,
Matt


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## Adam Foster Collins

How many Warre's are you running, Matt?

Adam


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## sqkcrk

Warres are considered TBHs?


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## Merlinspop

sqkcrk said:


> Warres are considered TBHs?


I think in the broader sense of "hives with frameless (and maybe also foundationless) bars" they are. They're vertical (vTBH) while the Kenyan's and Tanzinean's are horizontals (hTBH)s.


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## sqkcrk

Are the combs in a Warre more or less easily removed for inspection purposes?


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## the doc

i think in a true warre the top bars are nailed/screwed down right?


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## sqkcrk

Really? Or are you just making fun of me. Cause those would be totally illegal in all 50 states.


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## Delta Bay

> And just incase anyone does not believe me about them living more than 8 days as a forager, I know they do from both personal experience plus other research.


So what do you expect the mean life expectancy is? Not longest living! I would be interested in any research that shows the mean life expectancy of the forager bee.


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## David LaFerney

sqkcrk said:


> Are the combs in a Warre more or less easily removed for inspection purposes?


In every picture that I've ever seen of Warre comb it was not at all straight and would be very difficult or impossible to remove one bar at a time. You might be able to dump it all out at one time like a pan of cornbread I guess. If you were lucky.

No to start a flame war, but I started a thread a few months ago asking if anyone had a warre hive that had survived more than 2 winters, and there were no takers. Doesn't mean it hasn;t been done, but no one that responded could say that* they *had done it.

I know -t:


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## Beethinking

Warre hives are vertical top bar hives. In regard to whether the combs are removable, while most Warre beekeepers rarely remove combs, they can certainly be removed if the hive is modified slightly. On my Warres (and the ones we sell) we use comb guides on each of our bars. Our bars look like this: 










These generally ensure relatively straight comb -- or at least _much_ straighter comb than without guides! Here's an example of one of our fully built Warre boxes that we harvested last year:










While straight, the combs are all attached up and down the sides as would be expected without frames. However, making use of a "Bill Wood Comb Knife" one can remove such combs without destroying them. Here's a description:

http://warre.biobees.com/cutter.htm

We make a similar tool that incorporates a traditional hive tool on one end and it works very well: http://www.beethinking.com/store/tools-and-accessories/ultimate-top-bar-hive-tool

David LaFerney: I've got 6 Warres that were installed in spring 2009 that are coming out of their 2nd winter full of stores and booming. None of these hives have been treated for mites or disease in any way. 

Lastly, sqkcrk, Warre did nail in many of his bars as he saw no reason to individually manipulate combs. Do note, of course, that he includes descriptions of how to keep Warre hives with foundation and even removable frames in his book. He did not endorse those methods, though.


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## Adam Foster Collins

rlw4342 said:


> Adam, could you share what you would have done differently reference your 'inexperience' as related to heavy mite loads....


Well, I just completely underestimated how many there were in the hives. I thought that I should be able to actually SEE them on the bees. I have windows in the sides of the hives, and I looked very carefully at them in the night with a flashlight, and I thought that, if mite loads were heavy, I would see them. It, it was true - eventually I could. But this was September, and by that time, I had a great number of bees crawling around on the ground outside the hives with deformed wing virus (DWV). Seeing a few mites on my bees meant the hive was actually TEEMING with mites. Mostly inside the cells on the larvae.

I should have been using drone larvae inspections, and other methods to check it before that. By the time I could see them, the mite levels were crazy. 

I ended up buying oxalic acid and vaporizing them in October. The dead mites on the landing boards looked like coarse sand - thousands of them. And still I could see them on my bees. So I should have taken steps to have a sense of how the levels were before that.

But I did one thing that I believe unwittingly saved one of the two hives. I began last year with one hive in the yard in mid-May from a nuc. By mid-June, the 4' hive was full of bees and they were building swarm cells. So I split them then.

I took the original queen, some brood and honey and moved it to a new hive, leaving a couple of queen cells for the original hive. And without realizing it, I broke the brood cycle of the mites in that hive. For the time it took them to raise a new queen and get her laying, the mites had to endure a little window where there was no new brood in the nest. And that likely knocked them back a bit.

The split never missed a beat in terms of mites. The queen kept laying, and mites got stronger and stronger. When I did the oxalic treatment in October, the split (which was at that time half the size of the other hive) shed many many more mites than the bigger original colony.

The split died in February.

This year, I am considering what to do. I will check drone larvae for mites, and may sugar dust. And I may cut out drone cells to knock the mite numbers back. I see that the bees build obvious and large clots of drone brood on the sides of comb, and they would be easy to cut out.

On the other hand, if the remaining bees get strong enough, I could spilt them again to break the brood cycle and then put my hopes in the original hive to make it through the winter again.

When I hear that top bar hives aren't making it through the winter, I'm inclined to think that it's more mites than anything. A lot of newbies jump on the "all-natural-no-treatment" bandwagon, and set up a tbh as they've been told that its more "natural". Then, naturally, the mite loads weaken the bees so much that they can't take the winter.

Not that I think people should treat. I just think they shouldn't be surprised if they do nothing and the mites wipe out their bees.

Adam


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## sqkcrk

Cacklewack said:


> Lastly, sqkcrk, Warre did nail in many of his bars as he saw no reason to individually manipulate combs. Do note, of course, that he includes descriptions of how to keep Warre hives with foundation and even removable frames in his book. He did not endorse those methods, though.


Have your hives ever been inspected by a State Apiary Inspector?


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## Beethinking

My hives have not been inspected. Though, I can't think of instances of that happening to anyone I know here in Oregon.


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## Beethinking

Also, I see nothing in Oregon's beekeeping laws that would indicate that fixed comb (nailed, skep, etc.) are prohibited.


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## David LaFerney

Cacklewack - good job, and good pictures too. It never was that I didn't *want* to believe that Warre hives weren't feasible in today's environment. I just never saw any proof that they were. Seriously there are all kinds of pictures of shiny new warre hives fresh from the wood shop, but few if any old established hives with bees going in and out.

I'd like to see that change.


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## sqkcrk

Your State Bee Laws don't stipulate removable combs? Does Oregon have an Inspection Program?


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## Beethinking

sqkcrk said:


> Your State Bee Laws don't stipulate removable combs? Does Oregon have an Inspection Program?


We're a bunch of granola eating hippies out here! Why would we have laws or programs?! 

The only mention of frames in Oregon's laws are when defining what items might be found in an apiary. Nothing requiring their use, and nothing mentioning "removable." 

Oregon does require those with 5 or more colonies to register with the department of agriculture. However, I'm not aware of any formal inspecting program.

Cheers,
Matt


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## sqkcrk

Ahh, the wild and free west.


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## Beethinking

David LaFerney said:


> Cacklewack - good job, and good pictures too. It never was that I didn't *want* to believe that Warre hives weren't feasible in today's environment. I just never saw any proof that they were. Seriously there are all kinds of pictures of shiny new warre hives fresh from the wood shop, but few if any old established hives with bees going in and out.
> 
> I'd like to see that change.


I think a lot of this is due to the fact that Warre's book was only recently translated to English, and those aware of and using his methods outside of France hinged on this. David Heaf has put in a tremendous effort translating and communicating Warre's ideas to the world the past few years. I think you'll begin to see a lot more weathered, established Warre hives bustling with bees in the near future. The hives I use are much uglier than the ones we sell!


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## Michael Bush

>I think some of the issue with a large number of new beeks losing their hives the first winter is they are trying to make a difference and go the treatment free route with bees that are from treated outfits.

That's probably part. Another part is they are often southern queens in southern packages being kept in northern climates. Michael Palmer has an opinion on that, and I think I share it.

>I thought that, if mite loads were heavy, I would see them.

A common mistake. In theory, you would, I mean that they are visible, but only a well trained eye can pick them out.


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## Oldtimer

Adam, interested in your post.

I remember when I first joined beesource the new TBH guys were being told TBH's don't get mites. I remember feeling sorry for these guys losing hives and recommending they do something about mites, only for it to turn into a major argument, after a few times I gave up.

So good to see people starting to recognise TBH's can get mites, the first step in being able to do something about it & save the hives.

Based on your description, I'm going to recommend something chemical free I'll sometimes do in Langstroths, that would also work well in a TBH. In spring when the first drone brood is appearing, it will act like a magnet for mites. Before the drones hatch, you cut it out of the hive and put the bar / bars back. The bees will likely re-build with more drone comb. You cut this out again on day 21, because the drone larvae take around 24 days to hatch so on day 21 you'll get them all, and their mites, before they hatch. Repeat one more time.

This means you remove 3 consecutive cycles of drone brood. This will remove a very high % of the mite population from the hive. because the mite population builds exponentially during spring and summer, removing most of them spring will have a huge impact on keeping mite levels down through the whole season.

For bee breeds that need treatment, just this drone removal alone may not be enough, something else may be needed in fall. Perhaps this is when you could use your oxalic acid. just a word about oxalic acid, it kills mites on the adult bees, but not in the brood. So to get all the mites, you have to treat when there is no brood in the hive.

Using such a system should enable a mite control program that would keep even the most mite susceptible bees in reasonable health.


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## milena

Before starting TBH, I visited an older lady with some langs. She opened the hives for me. I could clearly see the brownish red mites on the bees. My eyesight is OK; not great. 

I wouldn't expect to be able to see mites through a window; but actually ON the bees, I think (hope?) They are visible. 

I mention this because I don't see any mites in my hive - not on my sticky bottom board, not on the bees, and not last year when I did a sugar shake on them. Also as mentioned elsewhere, we were broodless for a while last spring, which I think helped.

Anyone care to weigh in on whether I am being over confident? I'm worrying now that I'm mistaken in thinking I have no mites.


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## Oldtimer

milena said:


> Anyone care to weigh in on whether I am being over confident?


Possibly, but not nessecarily.

Not seeing any mites doesn't mean much, it can get real bad & still not many actual mites to be seen.

But some bee breeds are much more resiliant at mite resistance than others. You might have one of those. The only way really know is to test them, if your sugar shake was done properly & showed no mites, you could try another sugar shake & see if you have any now.

But every winter across the US large numbers of hives die. The owners often do not know why. All I can say is before mites arrived losses were MUCH lower.


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## BertieFox

Having spent an entire afternoon with a TBH owner and three others, cutting out frames to realign them, wiring them into position, and killing hundreds of bees in the process, I really can't see the advantage of TBHs other than to have a leave alone stock in the orchard or garden.
Personally I am going down the route of using conventional hives and moveable frames but just giving the bees small starter strips to allow them to draw 'natural' comb without pollutants. This seems to me to be much more controllable and the best of both worlds. You should just read Langstroth's book written around 1870 (available to download from Project Gutenberg) to see that the TBH is nothing new and all the reasons why Langstroth's hive was superior. 
Interestingly, Langstroth would himself have condemned vehemently all the abuses and extremes of modern migratory beekeeping and the 'industrialisation' of beekeeping that has occurred.


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## BertieFox

Having a stock that swarms a great deal is not a disadvantage if you can catch the swarms. That's one of the best ways to minimise the mites as it results from a break in brood rearing, and then setting up a hive on new mite free combs. We haven't treated our bees for three years and although we can see the mites in drone brood they are still very healthy and numerous.


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## David LaFerney

sqkcrk said:


> Your State Bee Laws don't stipulate removable combs? Does Oregon have an Inspection Program?


Our state laws do, but i've talked to the state apiarist, and what cacklwhack is showing in that picture would be dandy. As long as they can inspect for foul brood they don't care - but then we might be a bit backwards.


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## winevines

Michael Palmer said:


> Kim, write to Wendy Booth in NH. She's the Pres of NH Beekeepers. You probably have her contact info? They formed a top bar hive group last summer. Received a $16,000 grant. Spent $14,000 on top bar hives from Maine. I sat in on their meeting and listened to the reports. Nearly all failed to make the winter. Not a happy group. Lot of money spent to re-invent the wheel...only to come up with a square wheel.


Preliminary info found via web search is that this was a NH specialty crop grant (USDA) and they used packages- so maybe these losses were a result of a perfect storm. Seems I have learned from you that it is less about the box than what is inside. I will be interested to see their methods and results.


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## Adam Foster Collins

Oldtimer said:


> Adam, interested in your post...good to see people starting to recognise TBH's can get mites...Based on your description, I'm going to recommend something chemical free I'll sometimes do in Langstroths...remove 3 consecutive cycles of drone brood...Using such a system should enable a mite control program that would keep even the most mite susceptible bees in reasonable health.


Oldtimer,

I appreciate this response.

I do not believe that the hive types are doing anything to control mite loads. Natural cell may help, but I beleive it likely takes a while to get to that point, depending on what you start the hive from.

I like your thoughts on drone removal, and I plan to try this. The bees reared a lot of drones last year, and I'm sure they'll do so again. I have nothing against drones per se, but if sacrificing them can help me to monitor and control the mites, then I'm all for it. Besides, I'm sure drones will still emerge here and there, and I will not wipe them all out.

Yes, I understand that the best time for oxalic is during the broodless period, but last fall, I just felt the mite numbers were so high, that I might as well give it a go in hope of giving the bees a chance to get through the winter.

Thanks again,

Adam


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## Adam Foster Collins

Michael Bush;647714
>I thought that said:


> To be clear, I could see them. I can pick out mites pretty easily through the windows in the side of the hive. That was not my mistake.
> 
> My mistake was thinking that I would see them EARLY in the mite expansion. This was the error. In truth, seeing mites in a mass of 10's of thousands of bees generally means that the mite loads have gotten very high. If the mite numbers are low, your chances of seeing them in a mass of moving bees is very low.
> 
> Looking for mites, is not very useful way of monitoring their numbers.
> 
> 
> Adam


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## FindlayBee

I had two hives with a 28% mite load and I did not see any mites on the bees when I inspected. I only found them after a saw a few bees with deformed wings. Doing a sugar shake test and then finding a bee with a mite on it. I plan on treating with Mite Away Quick Strips this year.

I now know what to look for, but I will be doing more sugar shake tests as I simply cannot find a mite during inspection.


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## BertieFox

Mites must be hard to spot in a TBH as the only time I really notice is them is when looking at the bottom board on a conventional hive or pulling out a sheet of paper placed there. The other sure fire way of finding out the mite level is to open up drone brood. The mites show up easily against the white larvae and I've never failed to find them when doing this. So far, our bees are still prospering despite no treatments for a few years, but our bees are a very swarmy lot which means quite a few breaks in brood rearing, as well as swarms being housed in clean hives.


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## Delta Bay

> Mites must be hard to spot in a TBH


From what I can tell the mites don't spend much time running around on the bees. They are either in the brood cells or tucked in between segments of the bees abdomen. I think if you are seeing many mites on the backs of the bees the mite conditions are way out of control. During orientation flights if you see numbers of bees sitting on the hive, ground, fences, etc... rubbing their hind legs together and preening their wings you will find a mite tucked in between the segments. It also will indicate a high mite loud. If you pick the bee up by the wings and look at the under side of the abdomen there is a good chance you will see mites tucked in a segment on bees performing this action.

This is my own observation, nothing scientific.


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## mackelby

My first year, forced to try and catch a swarm. My youngest is graduating in a month, saving every penny for that. I built a TBH, main reason was cost. Poor man got poor ways.


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## BertieFox

I'm unconvinced that TBHs cost any less to build than a regular moveable frame hive. The hive body for a Langstroth or Dadant or any other type is just a square box; the only key factor is the bee space and you can buy spacers to fix in the box to get this right. Simple frames aren't expensive to buy especially considering they last for a long time, and you can avoid using more than a small starter strip of foundation. I'd say the bees will still build better comb than in a TBH and it will be stronger if you put wires across the frame.
Perhaps I've been put off too easily having seen the mess my friend's TBH had become, and I will keep an open mind, but I am experimenting instead with letting the bees build their own natural comb in regular frames in a regular hive and seeing how that works out.
The main problem I find with regular hives (Dadant) is that the boxes get too heavy to lift even with two of us trying to heft them.


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## Michael Bush

Making frames is a very precise process and difficult to do without some cabinet grade equipment. I have build top bar hives with nothing but a skill saw and scrap lumber. I have attempted to make frames with that same equipment with poor success and far too much labor involved.

The most important concept to grasp with any natural comb hive is that one good comb leads to another in the same way that one bad comb leads to another. You cannot afford to not be paying attention to how they start off. The most common cause of a mess of comb is leaving the queen cage in as they always start the first comb from that and then the mess begins. I can't believe how many people want to "play it safe" and hang the queen cage. They obviously can't grasp that it is almost a guarantee of failure to get the first comb started right, which without intervention is guaranteed to mean every comb in the hive will be messed up. Once you have a mess the most important thing is to make sure the LAST comb is straight as this is always the guide for the NEXT comb. You can't take a "hopeful" view that the bees will get back on track. They will not. You have to put them back on track.

This has nothing to do with wires or no wires. Nothing to do with frames or no frames. It has to do with the last comb being straight.


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## buckbee

FWIW I will throw my two penn'orth into this thread.

Nobody should be suggesting that TBHs of any design prevent mite problems - that is just wishful thinking IMO. However, I think natural comb plus bees' greater control of their environment WILL HELP the bees find ways to deal with mites. It's our job - as I see it - to CREATE THE CONDITIONS under which the bees can learn to deal with their own problems. 

Want a foolproof way to start a TBH with straight combs? Place 2-3 top bars in between frames in a Lang or any available framed hive. Leave for a few days during the build-up period and you will have dead-straight combs ready to move directly to a TBH. Most likely they will have a lot of drone cells if your Lang had foundation, but it doesn't matter - they will mostly carry on building straight. 

Incidentally, this is also the easiest and least disruptive way to make a split into a TBH - proceed as above and take the queen and some bees with you into the TBH.

As a general principle, if your TBH is not working, assume you are doing something wrong. Don't blame the bees - they don't know how to do things wrong!

BTW - for anyone still messing with oxalic acid and worried about toxicity to humans: did you know that lemon juice is just as effective, while being dirt cheap and non-toxic?


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## Oldtimer

Hmm.... That's interesting, organic too. It's been measured to be as effective as oxalic acid? How do you apply the lemon juice?


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## Michael Bush

>Want a foolproof way to start a TBH with straight combs? Place 2-3 top bars in between frames in a Lang or any available framed hive.

And if you don't have a framed hive, if you put a bar between two straight combs in a top bar hive and they will start it straight and you can then move it wherever you like with a good start.

"If some of the full frames are moved, and empty ones placed between them, as soon as the bees begin to build powerfully, there need be no guide combs on the empty frames, and still the work will be executed with the most beautiful regularity." --The Hive and the Honeybee by Rev. L.L. Langstroth 1853, pg. 227


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## buckbee

Oldtimer said:


> Hmm.... That's interesting, organic too. It's been measured to be as effective as oxalic acid? How do you apply the lemon juice?


Same way as you would oxalic - trickle between the combs in mid-December.


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## BoBn

Michael Palmer said:


> Kim, write to Wendy Booth in NH. She's the Pres of NH Beekeepers. You probably have her contact info? They formed a top bar hive group last summer. Received a $16,000 grant. Spent $14,000 on top bar hives from Maine. I sat in on their meeting and listened to the reports. Nearly all failed to make the winter. Not a happy group. Lot of money spent to re-invent the wheel...only to come up with a square wheel.





winevines said:


> Preliminary info found via web search is that this was a NH specialty crop grant (USDA) and they used packages- so maybe these losses were a result of a perfect storm. Seems I have learned from you that it is less about the box than what is inside. I will be interested to see their methods and results.


I looked through 2 of these hives of one our club members last July. They were very small colonies that were on the verge of starvation. As I remember, these two hives had only a couple combs of brood. PM me if you want more details.

Bob


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## buckbee

Interesting, and I would like to see a comparison with Langs in the same locations, started at the same time. I must say that my top bar colonies have come through winter in much better shape than most of my Dadants.


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## mmiller

buckbee said:


> Interesting, and I would like to see a comparison with Langs in the same locations, started at the same time. I must say that my top bar colonies have come through winter in much better shape than most of my Dadants.


I've been thinking the same thing which is why I decided to do just that. I am starting 2 new TBH's and 2 new Langs from packages this week. All packages are Carniolons from the same place (Olivarez) and all are being placed in an area that provides good forage for the bees. Time will tell. 

Mike


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## Oldtimer

Interesting experiment, please update in time.


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## Mtedcarr4

Hello , I am in Florida . I currently have 5 top bar hives & 10 langs . I like & use both hive types . H have been doing tbh for 2 years & langs for 3 . I had trouble first starting tbh hives but now they are doing well . While my langs started well I have had some losses . my goal is to be 50- 50 on my hive types . Lets hope for some goods palmetto.


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## AuntBee

I have just started beekeeping this spring with one TBH. My bees are doing very well. Our local association doesn't have a lot of support for TBH either. We are kind of "out there" in their opinion, but are hoping that our hives will be a lot healthier in the long run. For me, it's all about the bees and the pollination they provide.


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## Adam Foster Collins

AuntBee said:


> I have just started beekeeping this spring with one TBH... We are kind of "out there" in their opinion, but are hoping that our hives will be a lot healthier in the long run. For me, it's all about the bees and the pollination they provide.


I have top bar hive myself, but I think it's misinformation out there telling people that TBH's are going to make our bees healthier. They're not. Any hive can be managed for healthier bees if that is a priority for the beekeeper. I'm all for TBH's and they are a great way to experience the bees - but they are no more "natural" than any hive without foundation.

Adam


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## Ben Brewcat

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I have top bar hive myself, but I think it's misinformation out there telling people that TBH's are going to make our bees healthier. They're not. Any hive can be managed for healthier bees if that is a priority for the beekeeper. I'm all for TBH's and they are a great way to experience the bees - but they are no more "natural" than any hive without foundation.
> 
> Adam


AMEN and thank you! We have a pretty militant TBH faction here (locally), and it's really unfortunate that the divisions and misinformation is such a priority. There's enough trouble for bees without beekeepers getting all parochial on each other. It's a management choice. Period.


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