# Installing electric fence posts in very stoney/rocky soil - Any suggestions?



## NY14804 (Feb 8, 2016)

My plan was to drive T-posts in the ground to attach an electric fence (bear deterrent) to, but the soil is basically rocks... from fist sized to chair cushion size. Picture a rock pile that someone smoothed dirt over to hide the rocks, it's about that bad.

Does anyone have an alternate method or a suggestion to get fence posts into such soil, or some method to secure fence posts so they can't be shoved or toppled over?

Thanks!


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Weld the post to a car rim and pour concrete in the tire. It's not pretty but I've seen them used around here where bedrock was close to the top of the ground, or on exposed bedrock. You can also rent a jackhammer and dig a hole through the rocks. I know a guy that did that. 

I'd try getting a ground rod into the ground before I went to all that work.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

How about some five gallon buckets with cements. Have no idea if it would work. Just a thought.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If all you have is _rocks _.... make lemonade! 
Oh wait .... that is not quite right ... make a _*rock jack*_! 

Here is one version ...







photo credit

That's just a circle of welded fence wire with a bunch of rocks piled inside.

Another style of rock jack can be seen here: http://www.easy-fence.com/rock-jack


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Graham, I've never heard of those being called rock jacks but I have seen several of those in use around our area.


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## NY14804 (Feb 8, 2016)

Rader Sidetrack- Thanks for the rock jack idea! So far, it seems like it will work best in my situation, unless someone offers another creative solution.

Brad Bee & My-smokepole - I had thought of your ideas before I posted. We use the concrete filled bucket method where I work for moveable parking signs & they can be toppled easier than I expected, probably because of their small footprint. The concrete filled tire & rim method makes a wider base & would seem harder to topple and would be my second choice vs the rock jack.

I was also toying with the idea of punching a hole through by splitting hidden rocks with an air jack hammer with a pointed bit. I think that may not work well because the underground rocks are locked into hardpan clay soil with other rocks touching each other and probably won't move sideways as the bit tries to wedge the split rock apart. I'm also sure my bees will not appreciate the loud noise and vibration so close to their hives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

NY14804 said:


> My plan was to drive T-posts in the ground to attach an electric fence (bear deterrent) to, but the soil is basically rocks... from fist sized to chair cushion size. Picture a rock pile that someone smoothed dirt over to hide the rocks, it's about that bad.
> 
> Does anyone have an alternate method or a suggestion to get fence posts into such soil, or some method to secure fence posts so they can't be shoved or toppled over?
> 
> Thanks!


Go wider. Or put post in one opening in an 8 inch concrete block and fill that hole with cement.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Have a friend that put up a lot of cattle fence in Montana. They used jackhammers and the T posts just slide into the hole. Some of they you could pull out a few years later unless the hole filled with dirt. 

That was 20+ years ago and he still hates jack hammers.


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## pejam (Mar 20, 2016)

A simpler version that worked for me (glacial till with rocks of various sizes) was using a sledgehammer and a 2 foot piece of rebar. You can drive that pilot hole through some serious stuff even splitting some rather thick rocks. It did admittedly usually take a couple of tries to find a hole that took for each post but realistically you aren't looking to drive them any deeper than a foot anyway.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

how about the ground stakes? those need to go in 6ft deep.


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## saltyoldman (Feb 1, 2009)

Drill a 5/8 hole with a hammer drill thru the rock. Weld a one foot length of rebar on to your metal fence post and drive the post until it hits the rock, the move onto the next one.


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## NY14804 (Feb 8, 2016)

Pejam - Yep! I've got the same glacial till, so you know what a pain it can be. The rocks vary between 1-1/2" - 9" thick, some are shale, some are granite, etc., ...whatever the glaciers bulldozed from Canada to here.

DavidZ - Oddly enough I haven't had problems (yet) driving 5/8" x 8ft ground rods in previously. I used a Milwaukee 1-1/4" hammer drill set on hammer mode, put the rod end into the chuck, and it punches the rods right in within about 3 minutes.

Saltyoldman - Your suggestion is very workable! The trouble is, most of the rock is hit at about 2" deep, so pretty much the entire post is above ground. I wish the rocks were a little deeper for deeper post setting.

Thanks for all the suggestions!


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

The hammer drill has been the best solution for those kinds of situations for me. 

Cattle ranchers have been running miles of hot wire, without a single ground post, since the dawn of the electric fence. The "secret" is a hot enough charger. 'Works on 2000 lb bulls.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Colobee said:


> Cattle ranchers have been running miles of hot wire, without a single ground post, since the dawn of the electric fence. The "secret" is a hot enough charger.



Even a "hot enough" charger is useless without a _return path_ to the charger for the current (after it has gone through that bull (or bear).

If that return path is to ground (through the bull's feet) then a good method of grounding the charger is *required *(to complete the return path). A poor ground for the charger just reduces the impact of the shock, and no ground at all means no shock at all! 

If the return path to the charger is through an additional wire on the fence (attached to the charger "ground" terminal, then that bull/bear MUST contact *both *a hot and ground wire simultaneously to get any shock at all.

A good ground system for the charger is simply the best plan, and that is _not _a secret.


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## Metis27 (Mar 16, 2016)

I had the same plan to put in t posts and electrify. What I found was rock. I ended up putting up horse panels around the hives. They are not electrified but so far so good.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Even a "hot enough" charger is useless without a _return path_ to the charger for the current (after it has gone through that bull (or bear).
> 
> If that return path is to ground (through the bull's feet) then a good method of grounding the charger is *required *(to complete the return path). A poor ground for the charger just reduces the impact of the shock, and no ground at all means no shock at all!
> 
> A good ground system for the charger is simply the best plan, and that is _not _a secret.


Of course I have a ground _for the charger_... 

I was talking about all the "one ten foot ground rod every 4 feet" advice. My charger has a wire, from the ground post on the unit, attached to a screw, which is screwed in between the (wood) plate and cement wall of my shop. The 3/16" spark that jumps across a test wire(to ground) is a pretty good indication that it's working.


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## NY14804 (Feb 8, 2016)

Rader - I planned to have alternating hot & ground wires on my fence, with the fence ground wires connected directly to the charger and also tapped onto the charger's ground rod field. This will allow a shock by contacting the ground through the critter's feet or by it touching two adjacent fence wires, as you mentioned. I'm leaving nothing to chance on having a good ground for the fence, including dry or frozen soil.

Colobee - I've heard about the closely spaced ground rod method from others before. What I've found via research & inquiry is that the rods must be 10 ft apart (suggested minimum) to act as a proper ground field. If they are too close together they act more like a single ground rod and don't spread the returning charge out over enough area. This seems opposite of what most people would expect, but I'm told that's the way it is in reality.

Everyone - I'm also putting a lightning diverter on the top (hot) wire of the fence. This requires it's own ground rod field, seperate from the charger ground rod field. The required rod spacing for it is also 10 ft apart. These rods must be a minimum of 50 ft from the charger's ground rods to protect the charger from a lightning strike to the fence from bleeding through the soil and into the charger's ground field, which would be the same as if the lightning hit the charger's own ground rods directly. This field should have at least one more rod than the quantity used in the charger's rod field, I guess so it's a more attractive path for the lightning to reach ground than the charger's field.

What I've learned is proper & adequate grounding for the fence & charger is almost more important than the strength of the charger being used.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

One dirty little secret about placing ground rods, is that they do not necessarily have to be driven 10 feet straight down into the soil to be an effective ground. They can be driven perpendicular, or even buried horizontally into the ground. As long as the entire length of the rod is in positive contact with the earth, they are grounded. That's why a wire mesh on the ground's surface will work for ground,too . Moisture in the soil helps a lot, though. Dry earth is not a great conductor.
There's a reason we call these hills around my home the Rocky Mountains, so we do these things.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Our soil is pretty rocky but I can usually get a standard 5/8" galvanized ground rod to go in. I drive them with a T-post driver (heavy round pipe with one end plugged, and handles).

Thus far, we've had one post make a U-turn and come back out of the ground several feet away, and another just flat stop after going in 6 ft, but I'd guess I've got 10 others in the ground all the way.


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