# What constitutes mean?



## MSbeekeeper (Feb 18, 2009)

I know its been asked a lot but I have 4 hives and yesterday was my first day in them since last october. I have 1 have that is gentle as can be. Dont need any equipment and they could care less that you are up in there business. I love that hive!!! Found the queen and my 2 year old queen was superceded and all looks great!

Then the other three are down right ugly compared to the other. Taking the top off is not bad but as soon as you reach in for a frame about 7 or 8 bees come out fighting hitting my veil and attacking my gloves. Then about 10 or more are all around me. It makes me uncomfortable so I back away till they leave me alone. Then I go back in to do the same thing and it repeats itself!

So I guess is this normal or typical? Am I just being a pansy or does this sound like an issue? I would like to requeen but I cant get in the hive deep enough to even begin to find a queen. These hives are booming by the way. Have tons of brood, honey, and pollen, and drones are out too already! Smoke will drive them down but make no mistake they come right back out. They are stinging my gloves also!!


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## charmd2 (May 25, 2008)

Is the mean hive queenless or low on stores? If not I would requeen in a few more weeks and get a gentler queen


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## MSbeekeeper (Feb 18, 2009)

Well I know they are not low on stores. They did not have the queenless hum and it was three of my hives that are mean and last year they were a little rough in the fall but I figured spring time would change them. The problem is getting down in there to kill the queen. I can barely get the top hive body off without getting attacked.


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## Risky Beesness (Dec 29, 2010)

Read Michael Bush's site about re-queening hot hives. He suggests splitting the boxes until you get them to be manageable, and can find the queen. I haven't done this but found it to be an interesting read.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

10 bees hitting your veil? NOT MEAN. Did you smoke them before opening them or are they all on the same stand so the other 3 were mad from the vibration yuo made working the first hive?


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Are you using smoke?????

mike


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## MSbeekeeper (Feb 18, 2009)

Yes i did use smoke. I thought I said I did....Oh well yes it would drive them down but they would quickly come back. I just say they are mean compared to my one hive that is gentle as can be. Of the three that are mean one of them was a mean one last year and it swarmed twice and I got them both hence the three mean one! haha they make me mad but I laugh too!! Thats why Im wondering if it sounds mean or is the one hive just really gentle? So I guess Im being a pansy? haha Oh the three hives are very close together each on its own set of blocks.


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## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

If you cannot see clearly over the veil, due to the cluster of mean little things trying to get to your face, or if you end up with so many stingers on your protective clothing, that you look like a cactus. Or if you inspect the hive and you think you are stepping into bananas; for sure they are mean.


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## MSbeekeeper (Feb 18, 2009)

Micha then I dub myself a Pansy!! hahahahahaha They are no where near like that. I would probablly die if that were to happen!! hahaha


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

MSbeekeeper - I'm with you. I'd rather all of my hives be as gentle as possible - for my own enjoyment, and because I don't want the children in my family to be stung for no particular reason and become afraid of the bees. The adults can fend for their selves.

This is one of many good reasons to raise a few of your own queens - have some spares in case you want to requeen a hive for whatever reason.


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## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

If you need windshield wipers on your veil; for sure they are mean!


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

I would put on lots of gear and dive in. make as many nucs as you can with the frames from the mean hives, pinch the mean queens and give each nuc a frame of eggs from your nice hive. or you could crowd your nice hive and feed them untill they build a bunch of swarm cells, then make your nucs from the mean hives and give each one a swarm cell.


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## charmd2 (May 25, 2008)

A pretty handy rule of thumb is if you think they are to mean then it doesn't matter what I think they are to mean for you.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Excellent point.
I checked 21 of my 26 hives Tuesday. Clear, sunny day, very light breeze, temp 51 degrees when I got to the last set of 5. First hive was hot...when they started hitting my veil after using smoke, I decided to put on the gloves. 2 of the 5 were as gentle as could be, no boiling over, hitting veil, stinging gloves. The other three were basically all over me as long as I had the hive open. So I only examined the top box on each hive, tipped it to see if I could ascertain brood in top box. All hives full of bees, honey, pollen, etc. etc. 

However, I can work those hives in the summertime without gloves. But last spring they behaved the same way. From those three hives, looks like I got over 25 stings in my gloves. Nothing penetrated... rest of the hives gave me only 5 stings total on my bare hands. Were those three mean? You betcha! Will I requeen? We'll see how they behave when the weather warms up later this spring. 

Oh, and as I walked away, the bees hitting my veil started returning the hives. By the time I was 20' away, no bees around me. One hive was a Purvis queen, one a B. Weaver queen, the other a B. Weaver mutt (a walk-away split last year). The other two gentle hives - 1 a B. Weaver mutt, the other a B. Weaver queen. I don't mind putting up with hives like those 3, as long as they produce bumper honey crops.
Regards,
Steven


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## Shazam (Mar 1, 2010)

How much of it may have been the aggregation of scent markers from your working the previous hives?

Just curious if you worked them in the opposite order if the 5 at the end which were hotter, would be more calm


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Geez, give the bees a break. The OP said, "_about 7 or 8 bees come out fighting hitting my veil and attacking my gloves. Then about 10 or more are all around me_". 

That doesnt sound that hot. I have only been doing this for 3 seasons now but depending on the weather, nectar flow, time of year, etc., etc., the demeanor of any particular hive can change. 

That said, if it continues to get much worse, then think about requeening.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Shazam said:


> How much of it may have been the aggregation of scent markers from your working the previous hives?
> 
> Just curious if you worked them in the opposite order if the 5 at the end which were hotter, would be more calm


These last 5 were in a separate apiary, 5 miles from the other 16. I opened the first one - hot, donned the gloves, finished working it. This one was the hottest of the lot. Closed it up. skipped the next two, went to the end, worked those two. Those last two were maybe 10-15 feet from the first one. They historically are a bit more gentle. Then back to do 2 and 3. 2 more gentle (lolol not much) than 3. 3 as bad as 1. Each hive is on it's own stand of a section of railroad tie, or concrete blocks. 

Your point is well taken, there are a lot of variables we need to consider when judging the meanness of a colony.
Regards,
Steven


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## Buffalolick (Jan 26, 2010)

Last year my hottest hive was my best producer. A function of size or genetics? Idk either way they weren't so hot that I feel the need to requeen. But always got stung working that one. Seem calmer this year....so far


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I agree with BeeSlave and others. What you are
describing isn't mean in my book. For me a mean
hive will start hitting your forhead when you're 5
feet away. And when you lift the cover....... watch
out. And a mean hive will follow you for quite some
distance when you leave.

I'd give them a bit of time....... there are many things
that can temporarily tee off a colony.


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## Eek-a-beek (Oct 9, 2010)

If you have a single hive that you like out of many others in your apiary and you want to propagate its line, by destroying queens and raising new ones from your best hive, then you must first deal with the bad drones. Otherwise the new bees will be as much offspring of your bad hives as your good one because the new queens will mostly mate with the more numerous bad drones. When your new queens have emerged and are coming of age for their mating flights then put queen excluders on the bottoms of all your bad hives to keep the drones in.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

An aggressive hive will meet you at the truck 75 feet away and sting you before you have a chance to don your veil.

Inspected two of those w/ a guy one time. He didn't want to requeen them or anything. They were the best producers he had.

We have been spoiled by our docile mild tempered bees. Had we all been beekeepers when the German Black bee was common we wouldn't think that much we encounter now, short of AHB, is aggressive behavior.

But like what was posted earlier, if you find your hive mean it matters not what someone else thinks. I'm that way about dogs too. Or horses. Mean? Put it down. Don't need the agrivation.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

My question would be HOW are you using smoke?? One smoking mistake is opening the hive to quickly after smoking them (I still sometime get in a hurry and do this) I try to give the smoke a minimum of 2 full minutes before I crack the top and give another puff. Another thing to look for, after you pop the top look at the bees if they are lining up at the edge of the frames all looking up....then they are getting ready for you!! Every time I see this behavior I get nailed in the hands but I would give them another try after it warms up and they get a good flow going.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Mean is what Tomas down in Equador(?) is dealing with working the Africanized hives. He had some pictures on here where he was wearing insulated, leather winter gloves to work them, and there was about a fifty stingers on the back of just one glove.

...seemed pretty mean.


Adam


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Ah yes, it was not Equador, but Honduras. It was post number 25 in this thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239242&highlight=gloves&page=3

Brutal. You've got to love bees to deal with that. I mean - is that sweat, or venom in that glove? Youch.


Adam


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## MSbeekeeper (Feb 18, 2009)

Yeah I can see how I guess they are really not too mean. I was just comparing them to my one docile hive. If I re queen I will do it with store bought mated queens that way I don't get the bad drones. I guess ultimately I don't have the confidence yet to work semi aggressive bees. This is my third spring so its all very new still. But I can say like today I went out there just to watch and I can be right at the entrance with no problem. But as soon as I open it its on. 

As far as smoke I usually give a few good puffs at the entrance. I dont wait though I puff then go for the top. Once open I give them 3 or 4 light puffs to drive them down. Then I puff the air kind of heavy, not that it helps and actually makes me hold my breath. 

I can say this, they did give me the most last year and they were more mean than my one nice one. So Ill just give them some more time. But trying to prevent swarms is rather tough when I feel I cant get into them with confidence!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Last year my hottest hive was my best producer. A function of size or genetics?

I think aggressive hives tend to be robbers, so they profit at the expense of your other hives...


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

> As far as smoke I usually give a few good puffs at the entrance.* I dont wait though* I puff then go for the top.



That may be the problem right there.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Don't smoke them too much when working them. The three most common smoking mistakes:

•	People have the smoker too hot and burn the bees with the flame thrower they are wielding
•	People use far too much smoke causing a general panic instead of simply interfering with the alarm pheromone. One puff in the door is enough. Another on the top if they look excited is ok and after that having it lit and setting nearby is usually sufficient.
•	People don't light the smoker because they think smoke upsets the bees, probably be-cause of one of the above reasons.

If I expect problems (dearth, other hives are testy, or this one was testy last time I opened it), I usually put a puff of smoke in the entrance, then pull off the lid and put a puff in the inner cover (unless you don't have an inner cover). Then I put four or five good strong puffs of smoke in the entrance and wait a minute. Then wait about three minutes before opening the hive.

When I think a hive is hotter than I like I put a red push pin in the front of the box. If they are hot the next time, I put another red push pin in the box. If they are hot again, it's three strikes you're out so I requeen. Since I rear queens, this can be as simple as adding a queen cell and letting things work themselves out.

I don't consider seven bees trying to sting me hot or gentle. On a day with a dearth, that would just be normal. On a day in a flow that would be a grouchy hive. Now twenty or so pinging off my veil and following me is hot enough to be irritating but not that bad during a dearth or on a rainy day.

Hot hives pour out of the hive at you and are very difficult to requeen. But that seems to be the only solution to them. Requeen.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I agree with Sqkcrk, the owner is the one to dtermine if they are mean, no one else.

M.Bush - we have the "3 strikes and you are out" rule also. Big M's for mean, little m's if a little testy. If the next time they are gentle, you cross one out. But when they get to 3 big M's(2 m's = 1 M) , off with her head. If she is not spotted in the normal inspection, the brood chamber is taken a short way from the yard and the bees blown out. The brood chamber is returned to it's previous spot, and a frame of eggs from a good hive is placed in a deep, with an excluder below it, on the top of the hive. Both will eventually have queens, and if the lower queen(daughter of mean Q) is mean, she gets blown out again, and the top queen(and box) is put on the bottom. The 2 queens for a short time will help them recover from the time they had none.

Roland


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I suppose I didn't mention, that if the next time I open them, they are nice, I remove the red tack and write it off to a bad day.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

OK, mean in my eyes? When I start crying I am getting so many stings. A few months ago I had a guy come and get all my mean queens (he likes them for some weird twisted reason). I had him come later in the evening to pull the bad queens and then help me load the dequeened hives onto a trailer. They stung me so much I just started crying. I can take a lot but those hives was mean!!!! 
I like the 3 strikes and your out rule. 

Mike


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

I wear a jacket, veil, and gloves....stings are for people trying to prove their manly ...to whoever? But...haveing said that, once my bees start hurling harsh language, we have a problem!


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Mike Snodgrass said:


> ....stings are for people trying to prove their manly ...to whoever?


Well Mike, using that type of generality, one could say "Beeks who wear gloves are cowards." Or perhaps "Beeks who wear gloves don't care to learn about and be careful with their bees - they're like bulls in a china closet." Or perhaps "Beeks who wear gloves haven't matured as beeks yet." Personally I don't believe either generality (gloved or glove-less) is true. As has been demonstrated time and time again, going without gloves makes one more sensitive and careful while working the bees. But hotter hives require the use of gloves. 

And then, when you get my age, with arthritis, one discovers the joys of venom therapy. :lpf: The first few times the treatment I swear was worse than the ailment. But my physician was surprised when I reported to him that I no longer had any arthritis pain in my left hand. I had heard about that, but I was very pleasantly surprised too. Works for me, YMMV.
Regards,
Steven


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

SteveG :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I guess the next time I work my bees without gloves or a veil I need to get some folks to come over and watch so I can show off my "manliness" because it isn't getting me anywhere doing it alone.


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## lcsdday (Dec 9, 2009)

MSbeekeeper, I think you already know the answer. If you feel uncomfortable while working them then they are too mean for you. What is too mean for me may be nothing to someone else. I have three hives and one is as gentle as they come, the second is pretty calm, and the third is usually very nervous, but not aggressive. At least not to me. I have worked these hives with only a veil and usually with a short sleeve shirt, shorts, and crocs. That is until I accidentally dropped a frame on that third hive and seven stings later I will, for the most time, wear a long sleeve shirt. I guess what I'm saying is it should be enjoyable for you and not a chore and you shouldn’t be afraid to go into a hive.


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

All right, all right...IM A COWARD!!! Can we leave it at that?

I was trying to be humourus!


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

:lpf: aww Mike, you made my day! I love starting off with a good laugh! Thanks!
Steven


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

> As has been demonstrated time and time again, going without gloves makes one more sensitive and careful while working the bees.


If you want to ware gloves or not. Wearing gloves does not make one insensitive or careless.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Well, shucks... I just discovered what I've been doing wrong all along... been wearing a shirt and jeans. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_BzPcrCt7E :lpf: 
I dirty-double-dog dare this guy to do this first inspection in the spring, or go down into the brood nest like this. :lpf: But ya gotta admire him! (Wish I had a physique like that!  )
Regards,
Steven


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

I have always marveled at how subjectivity which in most cases is combined with ego can warp a persons ability to comprehend what another is actually saying... and since I have this very propensity I have learned to step back and read a post objectively as opposed to subjectively.....makes life more enjoyable and peaceful and I tend to actually get something from the writer or take the correction instead of being offended. 

Now as far as naked beeking....well even I have to draw the line somewhere:lpf:


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

I think you have recieved some good advice here reference your question...my advice is wait to "pass sentence" on this queen...its still very early in the spring here in the south...up until the orange blossom started 2 weeks ago...most of ours were "testy"....Im pretty certain they will calm down as warmer weather and more forage arrives. I usually plan for the hives to be a little "testy" in the fall as pepper tree flow ends (last flow before winter dearth) and in the spring before orange blossom starts...they have stores to defend.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Trust me, there is a time and place for gloves, there is always a pair in my left hand bee suit pocket. They are there for a quick draw! This week the bees have just been ticked, rainy, been in them way to much (esspecially breeders, finisher, and hives that get starters shook from them ). Most of the time aggression from them is subjective.....

mike


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

:lpf: Whenever I need a chuckle, or think I'm taking myself too seriously, I take a look at this. I just love these guys... don't have a clue who they are, wouldn't want my daughters to marry one, but... you gotta admit, they're not afraid of showing their "manliness" ... er, or is it... ah... well, here you go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaVq3NJJYLY
Regards,
Steven


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

It seems to me that if when you take a step back from the hive they leave you alone, they are not mean but very defensive. Mean is when they attack and then follow you for 100 yards. Defensive is when you've got your hands into their home. My bees are pretty calm but act up the closer I get to the brood and Her Majesty.


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## Peacocks bee farm (Feb 10, 2011)

I will have to say that I got a mean hive ,and there is no dought that they produce more honey than my others.whether it be by robbing or what ever. I have also noticed that they are more aggressive toward shb than my other hives which is a good thing. I also keep a pair of gloves around just in case, because there temperament can change anytime..

Dan


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

Know a woman who manages her bees in a t shirt and shorts. Complained to me last fall about getting stung 50 times in one day? What? Really? I have been stung exactly 10 times in my life, by honey bees. No reactions, just no fun! I wear them gloves and all because it works for me....and thet dont get in the way when im running away from them either!!!! LOL!!!!:doh:


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Last time I was stung nearly 50 times was last July when I moved 12 hives after dark. Had on gloves, veil, and those little darlings still flew and crawled and nailed us time and time again... 
Absolutely no fun. But to work them in shorts and t shirt? LOLOL no thanks.
Regards,
Steven


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## MSbeekeeper (Feb 18, 2009)

Well I went out to the hives today. I smoked them like suggested and it was a world of difference with my testy hives. I smoked the entrance rather heavily and let them sit while I worked my gentle hive. I went back to the other and smoked the entrance again. Took the top and and gave some puffs. and I was in them with confidence and less testy bees. That made it much more fun and a lot more enjoyable. Sure I took two stings to the hand but they were no where near as testy as they have been! Thanks!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

here are some http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5106409524033235587#


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## beeker (Jan 17, 2011)

They seem rough handling those frames and boxes in that video. Is that normal? I go a lot slower and try not to squish any bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Normal? Well they seem OK with it.

Certainly not how I would handle bees though!


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## baldwinbees (Mar 2, 2010)

2years ago I had the gentlest hive on a watermelon patch.I was gonna pull honey,but the migrant workers were picking the last of the melons so I waited till the next week-end.Came back&to my dismay the workers had cut the foundation out of my frames harvesting my honey for me.[no thank-you either]last year I put a hive from an extraction which had been in a house for 30+years&were MEAN[40-50come 'greet' you at 30yds out]....got a LOT of honey that year&all of it too...the top was a little crooked on 1 hive,but that was it...farmer told me a couple workers were stung&when I told him about the year beforewhile we were standing by the edge of the field not being bothered we concluded they tried it again...sometimes a 'protective' hive is better than a gentle hive&more profitable too


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## Davebcrzy (Mar 12, 2011)

I have a hive that I just hate having to get into. It is my strongest hive but those bees are MEAN! I must duck tape the bottom of my jump suit around the boots, and cover the connection where the two zippers on the front of the hood attaches. I smoke them before I enter the hive it seems to make them mad. When I open the top, I have a few that take aim at my head. When I touch a frame, the fun really starts. Bees everywhere! I park about 20 yards from the hive and they follow me to the truck. To keep from getting stung after I am finished working the hive I must get in the truck all suited up and drive up the road for a piece then get out and remove the gloves and veil. Oh yeah, they gonna get a brand new mama real soon!


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

What consitutes mean......In your face hitting your veil with a comet type wad flying around you as you move. Bees Landing and trying to find any hole in the bee suit or gloves you are wearing. And you walk around hoping the duck tape you have tape your ankles holds. This is what constitutes mean bees that need gasoline poured on them. I have been in a few situations like that in the past. TK


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