# Cordovan bees



## LaRae

http://members.aol.com/queenb95/index.html

This site has quite a bit of info and comparisons on different types of bees.


LARae


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## Focus on Bees

Very informative, though I'm still looking for the different traits of the different varieties such as gentleness, honey production, disease resistance, etc, and also what varieties take the cold better. Thanks for the link LaRae


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## drobbins

here's a little something

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/docs/beetypes.pdf

Dave


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## Focus on Bees

drobbins, I appreciate the effort, but can't seem to open the file


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## george dilley

i just opened the file with acrobat reader


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## Michael Bush

In my experience the Cordovans are pretty much more Italian than the Italians (and they usually are Italians). They rear even more brood, rob even more, and are pretty gentle to work with. The ones I had didn't winter well here in the North. They weren't frugal, but if you want a lot of bees early they will sure rear brood.


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## Hook

I also thin cordovians are basically the lighter color Italians. Italians are known for brood rearing, and very large swarms. As MB said, a large number of bees going into winter is not always good. A queen that continues to lay during times of drought, and lack of food is not always good. All traits need to be taken into consideration.


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## Bill Ruble

I have some cordovians packages comming myself this year. Some from Ohio Some fome California, and some fome the Island in the sea!!

But I also have packages of Italians, Carniolas and NWC. Will have some ferals also. So it is going to be fun comparing them all. Next year, I will try some Russians and others as well.

I do like the nice golden color of the Cordovans. Have had them in the past and they are sooo gentle and the queens is so easy to find. She just keeps right on laying even when I have the comb open and watching her.

Bill


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## LaRae

Focus did you see this page on that site?

http://members.aol.com/queenb95/catalog2006.html

It's a bar graph comparing various traits (gentleness, varroa resistence, production etc) of bees.


LaRae


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## Ross

I have some cordovian queens coming if they make. I just wanted to try some. Ultimately, I think most of my hives are going to get queens from my feral queen. She seems ideal in this climate. She's basicly Italian by markings, but she knows when to stop rearing brood. That hive seems to find nectar when the others don't. They aren't over the top producers, but nothing is here.


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## Sundance

Nice links, especially the comparison one.


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## BjornBee

I never ordered them myself. But last year I had opened a hive and had a marked corovan queen. She must of been dumped into a hive from a swarm. Very nice looking queen and very easy to find. For beginners who want gentle and easy queens to find, this certainly fits the bill. I have no idea if she made it through winter.


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## LaRae

I am thinking of trying a Cordovan queen this fall as a replacement queen..but I'm concerned about their lack of varroa tolerance (according to the graph). 

I started out last year with a Russian and an Allstar queen and so far good results with varroa tolerance.

I am also curious about those Minn Hygenic queens.

LaRae


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## NW IN Beekeeper

Cordovan's are Italian. 

Cordovan is color, not really a breed. 

If you look through the Glenn website you will see the genetics behind achieving the color. 

LaRae, if you are used to Russian, Cordovan most likely will disappoint you (opposite ends of the mite tolerance spectrum).


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## Focus on Bees

I really liked the graph comparison. Thats what I was looking for. Is there a place other than Glenn Apairies to get the cordovan brand?


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## LaRae

LaRae, if you are used to Russian, Cordovan most likely will disappoint you (opposite ends of the mite tolerance spectrum). 
--------------------------

Hi NW

That's what I'm kinda wondering about...I use sc so I wondered if that would help boost their mite tolerance.

LaRae


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## Bill Ruble

LaRae,

I am planing to use SC also to help with it and also sbb. I am hoping with those combinations and closely monitoring for mites I can make them work fine. I am going to use permacomb in at least one hive for them and see if that makes any difference too.

Bill


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## LaRae

LaRae,

I am planing to use SC also to help with it and also sbb. I am hoping with those combinations and closely monitoring for mites I can make them work fine. I am going to use permacomb in at least one hive for them and see if that makes any difference too.

Bill 

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Hi Bill,

I have sbb on both my existing hives as well, have them for my new hives too (planning on doing splits late April or early May). 

Why permacomb..what do you think it might do?


LaRae


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## Kieck

Like NW IN Beekeeper pointed out, cordovan is a color trait rather than a breed or race. I believe all of the "cordovans" I've seen offered are actually Italian bees, but with the cordovan trait. Cordovan is a recessive trait that changes the way pigment is produced in bees, so areas with normally very dark pigments instead have much lighter pigments.

If Italians work for you, the cordovans you buy from most places should work out about the same. Many breeders offer cordovans; I got some when I simply ordered Italians from a couple places.


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## Murphy

Hi,

I have cordovans and I really like them. Michael is right when he says they are more gentle etc. I love looking at them but I would advise when you have a dearth close down the entrances or they will rob any others hive that lets the. 
But they sure are beautiful and gentle.

I actually just got one in a large extraction I did. It is funny though every bee from her is a really dark black. So I get to enjoy the queen but possibly benefit from feral mating.

Kieran


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## Aspera

The word "Cordovan" sometimes also refers to the color of the mutation when it occurs in Carniolans. Appearently these bees are supposed to have a purplish hue rather than the usual black.

[ March 20, 2006, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Aspera ]


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## The Honey House

Back about umpteen years ago, BC had a neat pull out section that showed the various races. They also had cordovan and the purple bees. I'll look through my back copies and scan them.


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## BjornBee

First time I heard about the purple bees.


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## Bill Ruble

Why permacomb..what do you think it might do?


Well, I am hoping that the permacomb, after dunking it wax will make small cell. That is what Michael Bush says and if so, then they would be forced to use small cell first generation. Thus no long drawn out regression needed. That with sbb and dron cell pulls I think will control the mites even if they don't have as much resistance as some others. Of course, this is mostly hope because I have not tried it yet. 

If it works, and sence the cardovan color can be incorperated into any race, then I want to try and get the mite resistance bred in.
I know it will take awhile, but it will be fun working on it.
Bill


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## Bill Ruble

OH, and another thing, I am getting cardovans from 3 differant sources just so I can have a veriaty of gene pools in that color. I figure if I breed enough of them specially from enough different places, surely I can eventually find a queen with the color I like and the mite resistance as well. I know most don't care about the color and the mites is THE most important aspect, but I justlike the colar as well as the gentleness.
Bill


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## Focus on Bees

I think it will be neat to just try them, and see what happens. From the sounds of it I will have to watch the other hives in a dearth. Will be fun !!


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## Focus on Bees

Bill-

Where is the place in Ohio that you are getting them from ?


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## The Honey House

[ March 20, 2006, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: The Honey House ]


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## Bill Ruble

OOppss, I thought it was from Ohio, but it is from Illionis. Here is the place

Hansen Honey Co.
107 East Main St.
Ashkum, IL 60911
(815) 341-0248 

Bill


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## Focus on Bees

Bill do you know if they mail the bees? Queens?


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## drobbins

here's a high res copy of the pic honey house posted

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/bee.jpg

Dave


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## Focus on Bees

very nice drobbins !!


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## BjornBee

Nice!


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## Bill Ruble

Yes, they do mail queens and packages.


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## Ross

That's where I ordered mine as well.


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## chillardbee

i got cordovan queens with my packages last. true, this bee goes on a brood rearing fest when pollen and nectar is available and they would seem to be a good bee. they are actually the most agressive bee i have in my yard right now, they are dumb, really actually in regards to drifting, when it comes to drifting these girls would when hands down. and now for the final blow against these bees, their ability to deal with mites leave much to be desired. i was comparing my original stock (carniolans) to that of those dang cordovians and the first chance i get i'll be pinching cordovian heads.

i've got apistan and formic in all my hives right now with sticky boards under them to do a mite count i'll post that count later today (since i got it out there yesterday and today is 24 hours) it's going to be intresting to see how my SMR is going to read out.


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## Aspera

Where did your queens/packages come from Williard? Are all of the current workers Cordavan, or just the queens?


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## chillardbee

i got them last year, all the queens were cordovian and as fate would have it and time would allow it i ended up breeding 40 queens from them as well, all the workers are now obviously the daughters of the original queens and the queens i reared, where the package producer got these queens i do not know. maybe this is just one breed that is very suseptable to the mites, maybe there are other cordovians out there that have resistance to the mites. the packages came from Vancouver island, but i think he gets his queens else where.


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## loggermike

[ April 04, 2006, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: loggermike ]


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## genecot

Bill Ruble, Does Hansen ship small numbers of queens? like 3 or 4. I've e-mailed them several times and never received a reply. Thanks


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## Aspera

I think that there is a small amount of truth to that Mike. Paternal russian crosses still show some mite resistance (especially tracheal mites) and have Italian brood laying characteristics. I do think that their frequent brood cycle interruptions help against varroa.


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## Bill Ruble

Qenecot, They told me they would ship only a few queens, but I'd bet they are sold out. Don't really know but it sounds like it.

There is a place in Califoria that sells them too but I don't know where right off. Hawaii they have them. Ask Glen's to send you list of people who bought breeders from them and I think they will give it. That was how I found mine.
Bill


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## Focus on Bees

Gene, Hansens will ship small orders. I called them up and they said to contact them the end of april or beginning of may.


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## genecot

Thanks Guys i'll give them a call


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## chillardbee

actually logger mike, your quite right about those russians. they got 3 frames of brood now where as all the other colonies (my carniolans and original stock) are 6 to 7 now. she is an SMR queen but she was mated with russian drones. there is no doubt that cordovians raise brood by the bushels but what good is it if every spring there going to crash due to the mites. a lot of treatments we're using to control the mites are no longer effective or as much anyway. it's getting to the point where we have to keep pumping the meds into them wether it be OA, FGMO, check mite, apistan (pretty usless now) EOs, anything else we can devise and i don't think anyone really wants to do that. the cordovian gene can be bred into any line of bee and all it is is a lightening of there colors and the SMR gene can be bred into any other bee as well, but in the long run, which one well be more beneficial to us. to tell you the truth i don't car if my bees are lime green with purple polka dots as long as they can resist the mite and produce a good crop of honey.


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## Bill Ruble

Well cliff, i guess I'd gladly take a lime green or purple polka dot bee. I'd get rich just selling the novelty.


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## Joseph Clemens

I got four Cordovan Italian queens from C.F. Koehnen & Sons about this time last year. Their Italian line are of Cordovan stock. I introduced them to colonies that were already on small-cell (natural cell size), bred a few daughter queens too and have seen no increased mite problems, they have not yet exhibited any increased symptoms of PMS, no more than any of my other bees, in other words -- none.

As has been mentioned already Cordovan is just a genetic trait that affects *only* coloration, just like the trait for blue eye color in humans.


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## Bill Ruble

I was just going to post a message saying to put them on small cell sbb. You have already answered my questions about that Joseph. Thanks. I am getting several of them and going to put some on small cell, some on premacomb and some on standard cell. Comparing then with NWC and Carnolians as well as regular Italians. Wish I had some russians to compare also, but will have to wait another year. I am pretty much over extended already!!!!


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## Bill Ruble

I have a thought on color as well. I know some peole say they dont care about color as long as they produce. I find it so interesting that nearly every domestic animal has many colors and most people have preferances. I think it is fine to have the same in bees. Too many people judge on color alone when it has bees said that mite resistance can and has been bred into the cordovan color. I can tell my codovans out in the field compared to wild bees, how many of yo ucan do that? I injoy knowing if i am 2 miles from home and find some of those yellow bees, I know they are mine.

Just some thoughts.
Bill


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## Joseph Clemens

Yes, I do find the color very attractive, but my second reason for choosing Italians with the Cordovan gene was to have a positive way to keep track of the genetics of my colonies.

There seems to be a great deal of attention given to AHB and possible AHB infiltration.

In consideration of the possibility of AHB infiltration I decided to try Italian Cordovan bees. This way, if a colony has a queen of Cordovan coloration, I know *she* is pure Italian Cordovan. If all or most of her workers also exhibit Cordovan coloration, I know she was mated with drones also carrying the Cordovan gene (no chance of them being AHB, yet). If a queen showing herself to be pure Italian Cordovan produces workers without Cordovan coloration I know she was mated with non-Cordovan drones and her workers might possibly be 1/2 AHB. And if a hive which had a Cordovan colored queen, now has a queen without Cordovan appearance, she may be AHB. If 1/2 of her drones are Cordovan then she is still carrying the gene for Cordovan coloration.


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## Michael Bush

>As has been mentioned already Cordovan is just a genetic trait that affects only coloration, just like the trait for blue eye color in humans.

In theory it's true. In reality the cordovans out there all seem to have similar traits probably because they are from the same strain of Italians.

The cordovans that are available out there seem to be all the things Italians are but more so. More determined to rear brood. More prone to rob and drift. More gentle. Mine did not winter well and did poorly with the mites.


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## Aspera

Looking at Cordovan just as a trait, I think that it good be a very valuable tool for breeders who do not use II. It would allow them to keep better track of matings without having to have 100% isolated apiaries.


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## Bill Ruble

Ok, if you really want to test the small cell theory, then practice on bees that have less resistance and see just how effective the small cell is. I realize we need to use lots of factors to resist the mite, but I think for study purposes and testing, it would be nice to use bees that have less resistance just to see how much difference there really is in small cell.

If Cordovans die while using small cell, but the others don't, then it must not be the small cell that is the factor.

Bill


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## Michael Bush

>Ok, if you really want to test the small cell theory, then practice on bees that have less resistance and see just how effective the small cell is.

But what if some bees are genetically going to fail to the mites no matter what you do for them. Then what have you proved?

>I realize we need to use lots of factors to resist the mite, but I think for study purposes and testing, it would be nice to use bees that have less resistance just to see how much difference there really is in small cell.

Then you need several hives of all that breed in both small cell and large cell and measure the mite drops.

>If Cordovans die while using small cell, but the others don't, then it must not be the small cell that is the factor.

Or it's only one factor. Dee Lusby has always said it's 1/3 comb, 1/3 genetics and 1/3 feed.

I happen to think small cell is the most important factor, but not the only factor.


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## Bill Ruble

I understand where you are coming from Michael, but I have a brother in law who works in research. They pay big money to use mice that are very receptive to getting a certain kind of cancer. There point is they can test many things on those mice whereas others that don't get it as bad are much harder to experiment with. Same goes with bees. I believe that small cell works, mostly because I trust you Michael, but I am still going to prove it for myself and am going to try several hives with all kinds of comb and more than one kind of bee also.

If you combind every factor that represses mites, then how do you really know which one is working the best. It might be all of them, or it might be 90% one of them, who would know? One person will say it is genetics, the next will say no, its small cell, the next sbb. and so on.


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

Now I've got to fess up. I first started sugar blasting to keep my Cordovans free of mites and healthy. Then I used it for mite sampling in my small cell hives, etc.

Unfortunately, my Cordovans were the least mite tolerant bee I've ever tested. And none of them survived the initial shake down and regression that I did back in 2000.

Since then, I'd noticed some of them in a few of the thousands of hives brought back from the almonds. And thought about establishing a patio hive with them. But they were somewhat hot, so changed my mind.

It would be an interesting test to put some of these bees on small cell and see what happens. If I can find a reasonable source(not a breeder), I think I will give it a shot.

Regards
Dennis


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## Joseph Clemens

My Italian Cordovan's have been on small-cell for just about one year now, and, so far they are doing just fine.

[ March 31, 2006, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Clemens ]


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## popsjim

How are the Cordovan's on honey production?


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## Joseph Clemens

Those I've run for honey production have done an excellent job of bringing-it-in during our Mesquite honey flow.


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## tecumseh

mr clemens writes:
There seems to be a great deal of attention given to AHB and possible AHB infiltration.AHB infiltration I decided to try Italian Cordovan bees. This way, if a colony has a queen of Cordovan coloration, I know *she* is pure Italian Cordovan. If all or most of her workers also exhibit Cordovan coloration, I know she was mated with drones also carrying the Cordovan gene (no chance of them being AHB, yet). If a queen showing herself to be pure Italian Cordovan produces workers without Cordovan coloration I know she was mated with non-Cordovan drones and her workers might possibly be 1/2 AHB. And if a hive which had a Cordovan colored queen, now has a queen without Cordovan appearance, she may be AHB. If 1/2 of her drones are Cordovan then she is still carrying the gene for Cordovan coloration.[/QUOTE]

tecumseh:
humm.. it seems to me you haven't got your bee genetics/ bee reporductive physioliogy quite correct here. or perhaps are you intermixing F1 and F2 phenotypes somewhat? 

first off given the trait is recessive the possibility of a cordovan queen mating only with condovan drones (without the use of AI or II) would be extremely low. in a more natural mating regime if sperm is mixed in the spermathea (as is reported) then progeny would be just as mixed and/or just as homogenized as the sperm. 

the genetics of the honeybee suggest that the drones should be a direct reflection of their mother and there should be cordovan no matter what the breeding. workers on the other hand should somewhat reflect the queens breeding although you might expect some variation based on how the egg forms (the genetics within the formation of an egg prior to being fertilized). If you had a copy of Laidlaw's Contempory Queen Rearing I could thumb back thru this book and give you the page reference?


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## Joseph Clemens

I am, of course, having a wide mixture of Filial generations, F1, F2, etc. (I will sometimes select a mother queen from the most promising F2 queens, or F3, etc.) and inevitably some out breeding since I am not yet controlling my queen's matings with I.I. I am not expecting to get Cordovan queens that have been mated purely with Cordovan drones, since I am open mating, but I have hoped to have some Cordovan drones mate with my queens, and experience has shown that this is happening. Most Cordovan queens I have produced show a mixture of normal colored and Cordovan colored workers.

However, if a queen shows Cordovan coloration, then she is homozygous for the Cordovan trait and all of her drones will be Cordovan. But if she only carries one of the genes for the Cordovan coloration, then only half of her drones will be Cordovan and the only workers/queens that will be Cordovan are those that get both a Cordovan gene from her and one from their drone father. Since I am only able to control the purity of my queens, by keeping only those queens that show Cordovan coloration, their female progeny are usually a mixture of Cordovan and non-Cordovan colored, as I would expect since they are surely mating with a wide assortment of drones.

By discarding queens that are not homozygous for the Cordovan coloration I can maintain a Cordovan matriline. Of course, if I eventually have pure Cordovan queens which have only mated with non-Cordovan drones then I will be unable to maintain that line (no more females produced that are homozygous for the Cordovan trait). To restore it I would either need to import Cordovan queens that had been mated with Cordovan drones or produce Cordovan drone mated queens using I.I.

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Of course, if my Cordovan drones mate with a wild AHB queen (though this may be unlikely due to the nature of AHB), and she then produces a daughter queen carrying the Cordovan gene, then half of that daughter queens drones will be AHB Cordovan. That would likely mess up my plans. However, I've been doing this for several years and less than 1% of homozygous Cordovan queens, even when mated with only non-Cordovan drones, where all their female progeny are non-Cordovan, have shown any obvious AHB traits.

I have read that the preponderance of AHB traits are carried in the paternal lineage rather than the maternal lineage -- I would quickly cull (especially the queen and drones) of any Cordovan colony that produced Cordovan workers that demonstrated any AHB traits.


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