# Just Shaking My head



## Hawkster (Apr 16, 2010)

why stop at a few hairs? a finger maybe ?


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## Lauren (Jun 10, 2010)

good grief. 

And what pray, tell does the super organism need hair for???? Maybe they can fashion little guitars of wax and use them for strings... you know, so they can join in while your singing to them.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

I read that article yesterday waiting for a punchline. It was at the end when I realized he was serious. I had asked for and gotten a bee book 2 Christmas' ago on organic beekeeping with some of the same stuff and sold it on EBay ASAP. Turns out it's the same author.

Different strokes for different folks but it's hogwash to me.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Michael
I get this a lot "your bees know your" and my reply is yeh and they dont like me :lookout:

And my prayer is that they dont sting me to much!!


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

I guess that just giving them a roof over their head and little smoke now and then is not enough?


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## PCM (Sep 18, 2007)

Let's be truthful now !

It sounds as tho you folks don't sing and talk too your bees !

I definitely talk to mine when they are in a stinging mood, sometimes very loudly.

:lookout: PCM


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## BeeaBee (Apr 12, 2009)

I would prefer to have no relationship with my bees. Best if they just totally ignored me when I was at the hive. Like I wasn't even there. No hard feelings.:scratch:


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Ross Conrad, ain't he a pip?

I'm all for being one with the world and having respect for our fellow inhabitants of this world.

dating bees though? I think Ross needs to start sharing some of whatever it is he is toking on.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Hawkster said:


> why stop at a few hairs? a finger maybe ?


Yeah, which one?


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

I, for one, am not interested in having any sort of personal relationship with my bees (nor do I think that such a relationship is even possible - but that is the scientist talking).

I AM interested in having a more positive FINANCIAL relationship with them though! Right now, it all flows one way - to the bees!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Maybe his smoker is full of Sweet Mary Jane?

To be honest, We learned different things about bees when we put a hive on the back porch, next to the back door. We also had one next to the man door to the garage, that made a handy tool rest. It seems they get acclimated to human activity, but I can not say we ever get to know each other.

Roland


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

well, if you figure a stinger surrendered during apitheray is a "modified ovipositor", the beekeeper might as well return the favor in kind 

deknow


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

An old beekeeper years ago told me to leave a T-shirt ya wore for a while out in the bee yard and they would get used to your sent. Never tried it but” ya never can tell with bees.” Winnie the Pooh.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

deknow said:


> well, if you figure a stinger surrendered during apitheray is a "modified ovipositor", the beekeeper might as well return the favor in kind
> 
> deknow


By giving them my modified ovipositor??


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

15-30 min for a single covered frame, huh. For a person with 100 hives that comes to 25-50 hours for a single frame in each hive. Have fun with that.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> By giving them my modified ovipositor??


...it only seems fair


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## Hawkster (Apr 16, 2010)

and I thought i was over the edge with a finger ! I am keeping mine!


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Maybe I missed the jest of the matter from the original post. But my input is going to be that what is BC thinking putting such a stupid, yeah, I said stupid article in their magazine. I got to that article early on, didn't finish it, and laid the mag. down and haven't picked it back up. Probably will not.
I said some time ago that BC was my favorite of the two main publications. I recant that stament as that one article ruined the entire issue for me. Just my thoughts.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

outside of that one article, the rest of the magazine held a lot of interesting articles and research in it for me. I even found that one article to be entertaining, if nothing else.

Then again, there is very little I read or see from what others write about beekeeping that I see as "universal truth". I just take each article and post with a grain of salt and make my own decisions as to if it's relevant or credible.

The primary reasons I subscribed to Bee Culture was to have access to the market price reports and the scientific studies they include. Everything else is just opinion and I take it that way.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Yuleluder said:


> 15-30 min for a single covered frame, huh.


And what will you learn from a frame of brood and bees in 15-30 minutes of observation? I ask my bees..oops, no I don't ask my bees...I breed bees that are quiet on the combs, or at least try to. Most do remain quiet on the comb as I inspect. I want the bees to continue what they were doing so I can observe. But 30 minutes??


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

In defence of Ross,he has written some good things re: natural beekeeping.
But sometimes he does seem to go overboard.
There may be some touchy-feely beginers out there who hang on his every word but for me,I keep my BS filter turned to high.

My chickens,on the other hand. We have a nice conversation every morning.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

It just shows how desperate magazines are for copy. ANY copy. A lot of articles in there are just to meat up the magazine (e.g. Loringborst). His organic beekeeping book is not bad, but you have to cleave much of that American-Indian/Hippie White Guy philosophy out. He does know something about bees (from Mraz), but he tends to romanticize a bit much. Anyone know how many hives he is running now? Seems like his spiritual relationship was not working out so well a few years ago, and he got dumped...lost most of his hives. Should of booned-up and used that finger, I guess.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

It seemed to me there was a lot of the New England  [R.Conrad is in Vermont] Transcendentalist philosophy in the article. Transcendentalism had its beginnings in New England with Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry D.Thoreau. A close, almost spiritual connection to nature was a large part of that philosophy I believe. He's one of your guys M. Palmer .

From "Nature", by Emerson:

_"To speak truly, few adult persons can see nature. Most persons do not see the sun. At least they have a very superficial seeing. The sun illuminates only the eye of the man, but shines into the eye and the heart of the child. The lover of nature is he whose inward and outward senses are still truly adjusted to each other; who has retained the spirit of infancy even into the era of manhood. His intercourse with heaven and earth, becomes part of his daily food. In the presence of nature, a wild delight runs through the man, in spite of real sorrows. Nature says, -- he is my creature, and maugre all his impertinent griefs, he shall be glad with me. Not the sun or the summer alone, but every hour and season yields its tribute of delight; for every hour and change corresponds to and authorizes a different state of the mind, from breathless noon to grimmest midnight. Nature is a setting that fits equally well a comic or a mourning piece. In good health, the air is a cordial of incredible virtue. Crossing a bare common, in snow puddles, at twilight, under a clouded sky, without having in my thoughts any occurrence of special good fortune, I have enjoyed a perfect exhilaration. I am glad to the brink of fear. In the woods too, a man casts off his years, as the snake his slough, and at what period soever of life, is always a child. In the woods, is perpetual youth. Within these plantations of God, a decorum and sanctity reign, a perennial festival is dressed, and the guest sees not how he should tire of them in a thousand years. In the woods, we return to reason and faith. There I feel that nothing can befall me in life, -- no disgrace, no calamity, (leaving me my eyes,) which nature cannot repair. Standing on the bare ground, -- my head bathed by the blithe air, and uplifted into infinite space, -- all mean egotism vanishes." _


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## cdanderson (May 26, 2007)

Yep, I believe in respecting nature but that article was a waste of copy space for me.


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

At least you got your BC magazine, I haven't got mine yet. :waiting:


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## dmpower (Nov 7, 2010)

valleyman said:


> Maybe I missed the jest of the matter from the original post. But my input is going to be that what is BC thinking putting such a stupid, yeah, I said stupid article in their magazine. I got to that article early on, didn't finish it, and laid the mag. down and haven't picked it back up. Probably will not.
> I said some time ago that BC was my favorite of the two main publications. I recant that stament as that one article ruined the entire issue for me. Just my thoughts.


I have to agree with this!! What is BC doing putting this article in print? Unfortunately the December issue was my first issue of BC - and it may be my last


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

I haven't gotten my issue yet, either. (Must be late shipping to the valley) But thanks for the warning. I was about to buy a book of his. Now I am second thinking it.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

15-30 Min a frame???? On my better hives, the queen would have jumped off already, and the bees would be sparse except for around my head. Men will try to find anything that will give them pleasure, and not live by the Way. 

mike


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## FRAMEshift (Jun 27, 2010)

What a statistical anomaly! 97% of the American public claim to believe in God. Yet 100% of the posters to this thread seem to be atheists... or hypocrites.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

how on earth did you jump to that conclusion??


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

bigbearomaha said:


> dating bees though? I think Ross needs to start sharing some of whatever it is he is toking on.


If he's not, getting married could do him good!


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

Is it just me or is BC becoming more tree hugerish every issue


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## concrete-bees (Jun 20, 2009)

- I too am a little let down in the recent articals - true to the fact that here is a lot of good reading in the BC but yeah that artical has made Dec BC a paper weight on my desk - 

i would rather them have spent the pages on, what to expect in Jan in terms of wintering and feedings - or patty recipies or moisture control - or even just a few pages of blank pages so that we can scribble on them,

I think that there is better topics that are in greater demand at the present time. 

Thats my 2 cents


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## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

PCM said:


> Let's be truthful now !
> It sounds as tho you folks don't sing and talk too your bees !
> I definitely talk to mine when they are in a stinging mood, sometimes very loudly.
> :lookout: PCM


I did not read the article, but it sounds like another "tree huger". "MOOD" is a human trate as are many other trate's we apply to our bees, afterall bees are insects (allthough social) and they do there own thing and on there terms! We "BK's" just try to give the gals a home to there liking and are rewarded with some of there excess work - honey. Not to be demeaning! I get great delight observing there activity(s), on a sunny afternoon with a STIFF Scotch 20+ feet from a couple of hives sitting under an apple tree.
As to the above quote: I do talk to me bees when there are in a foul "MOOD" and with expletives!!


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Come on ya’ll ya know ya talk to your bees. “Come on ya dang gum queen. I know your on this dad gum frame cause a just say ya about 2 seconds ago. Where did ya go. How am I going to make a dad gum split if ya keep running around on all these dad gum frames. Come out come out where ever ya are.” :lookout: Ya know it's true.


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## edward (Nov 7, 2010)

Barry said:


> If he's not, getting married could do him good!


Probably beecause he is spending to much time looking at his bees 

mvh edward


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

I see nothing offensive or stupid in the quotes from the original article (which naturally are taken out of context). For example- did the author suggest we should study _every_ frame of every hive for 15-30 minutes? I doubt it- I'm guessing he meant we could learn a lot about our bees and get to know them better if we take a few minutes to really watch them on the comb. I don't know about you all, but I've seen a few BK's who would do well to observe their bees more closely.

Are we so fragile as to not be able to handle reading someone else's approach to keeping bees if it doesn't jive with our own? That we will refuse to ever again read a magazine that presents one article we feel is a bunch of bologna? I like it when magazines present varied ideas. Can we not also learn from momentarily considering other people's points of view? If we know everything already with such certainty, then why read magazines at all? 

Native Americans practiced things like thanking an animal they killed for meat, or symbolically honoring a tree they felled to make a canoe. They felt it was part of being in harmony with the natural world they were a part of. Is there something so wrong with these concepts that they should be ridiculed? Is beekeeping _only_ about production and numbers? Is it so ridiculous and absurd for some people to find personal spiritual beauty in feeling harmoniously connected with their bees? That someone with hundreds of commercial hives would have little time to devote to such things on an individual hive basis is, I think, rather obvious.

I don't think I'd be doing dances or chanting for my bees, but I talk to them sometimes for fun- it gives me pleasure. I plant certain flowers for them hoping they will enjoy them. I also talk to my vegetables sometimes when I'm gardening, or I hum tunes while I plant lettuce seeds- _big deal_.

I still keep a little match box from when I was 6 yrs old... i put in it the whisker of my beloved cat. I still have it after 50 years, and having it makes me feel nice. I don't find it laughable or crazy at all if someone leaves a few hairs from their head for their bees as a 'thank you' gift for their honey. It's _symbolic_. People do lovely symbolic things all the time in this world...or hasn't anyone ever noticed?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

mac said:


> Come on ya’ll ya know ya talk to your bees. “Come on ya dang gum queen.


Of course we all do. I call all my queens Martha. Easier to remember their names that way.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> Native Americans practiced things like thanking an animal they killed for meat, or symbolically honoring a tree they felled to make a canoe. They felt it was part of being in harmony with the natural world they were a part of. Is there something so wrong with these concepts that they should be ridiculed?


I still do those things.

I don't think people are dissing the fact of respecting the bees, but the concept of talking about bees as if you would "date" them like a human girl and that is not out of context,that is exactly what he said.

I treat my dog with great respect and as a part of my family. But I recognize he is still a dog. I am not one of those people people that coo and refer to myself as his parent or such nonsense. he's a dog and proper respect says I should recognize that. Not trey to make him what I am.

Same goes for the bees. I have great respect for the bees but I don't treat them like they are human. they are bees.

What Ross did was enter that "crazy" world of treating animals like humans.

not smart, respectful or healthy.

btw, I talk to my dog and the bees all the time. I have entire one sided discussions with them. the same way I do with my kids. I don't expect them to talk back to me though. not in the human sense anyway. (the bees and my dog, that is. The kids, well, that's another story)


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

FRAMEshift said:


> What a statistical anomaly! 97% of the American public claim to believe in God. Yet 100% of the posters to this thread seem to be atheists... or hypocrites.


What does one have to do with the other?


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

I wondered the same thing myself


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

FRAMEshift said:


> What a statistical anomaly! 97% of the American public claim to believe in God. Yet 100% of the posters to this thread seem to be atheists... or hypocrites.


Now see - I think it is exactly the opposite. I see it as a lack of or weakness of belief and faith in God that leads people to worship plants/animals/nature. I just read the article and Ross seems to be nearly deifying bees and nature.

Given that, if I were to assume anything from the responses posted, I would say that the responses _reflect _belief in God.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

This is heading down Tailgater street. Back to bees please.


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## green2btree (Sep 9, 2010)

I do think that studying a frame out of the hive for thirty minutes with the hive open would stress the bees more than make friends with them. I try to visit as short as time as possible so they can on with their lives. I DO like to sit close (but off to the side) to the entrance and watch them coming and going though.
If one lands on me and then goes on it's way without stinging me, that's friendly enough for me.

JC


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Just shaking my head myself here. Yikes.


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## sinclairz (Jul 27, 2009)

OK, so, in the interest of honesty, I have to say that the article was fun for me to read. As a newbie, the technical articles in BC & ABJ are interesting, but sort of Greek to me at this point. I'm sure they will get more interesting and valuable as my knowledge increases. And, yes, the part about leaving hair and studying the frame for 15 to 30 minutes was a little strange/overboard (respectively), but at this point I still approach my hive with a gratefulness and wonder that is unmatched by anything else I do. I am awed by my bees and I go to a wonderful place when I'm dealing with them. My favorite thing is to watch them fly in all loaded with pollen or watch a new bee emerge from a cell. Yes, I only have one hive (have to start somewhere, right?), and I know this approach isn't practical or feasible for those who have many hives. But this is the other end of it, and, although his article was on the far fringe, I think it's kind of cool to think about this non-technical perspective. Isn't there room in such an information-packed journal for one little bit of imagination? Just sayin'.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

sinclairz said:


> Isn't there room in such an information-packed journal for one little bit of imagination? Just sayin'.


Not for me. I want facts, not fluff. Humor works for me, but this guy was serious. There's too many variables in beekeeping for someone like him to misinform a newbee such as yourself.


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

I enjoy facts just as much as someones story. I thought Ross did a nice job on Natural BK. I read his stuff and only applied what worked for me. Did we get the same response when Richard Taylor penned, "The Joys of Beekeeping". I doubt it. But I enjoyed that book very much. What about Sue Hubbell, "A Book of Bees", there was alot of touchy feely in there also, but a great read.

I believe we get undated with technical information about BK, and could use a story or two once in awhile. I remember back in the day when BC was full of interesting stories and ABJ was the technical side. I would prefere BC to put some folks stories in the mag. Hobbiest, sideliners, sideliners that moved up, and commercial folks. Real stories of interest. I bet they could find some candidates on this site.

Granted, the "Dating Gig", was a metaphor for "pay attention to your bees". Which as mentioned in this thread, a bunch of folks need to do!

Kind regards,


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Some people are just wired differently. I remember trying to get out of a liberal arts requirement in college. The lady that would ultimately decide my fate ended our heated discussion with "it is obvious that you need more liberal arts classes and not less". To this day, I have know idea how these people draw any conclusions. I've always thought that is was a default mode for those that didn't inherit the "logic gene". Sometimes a touchy-feely article conjures up romantic notions about the world we live in, like a good painting. The rest of the time we shake our heads wondering if the author may have a loose screw or hormonal imbalance. Since I can rarely even understand basic poetry and the vast majority of so called art, there is no hope that my hair will be left at the foot of a hive. As other's have already expressed, however, a one side conversation, rife with expletives, may on occasion renew my relationship with the hive. And likewise, a few stings to the face, and bee poop all over my vail, brings us back to simple harmony and a deep understanding of each other -> priceless.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

When I read that article, two thoughts came to mind:
1) He's trying to fill the philosophical approach to beekeeping that Richard Taylor filled so well.
2) What a waste of space in this magazine!

I miss Richard Taylor. If one wants a naturalist, philosophical approach to beekeeping, read Richard Taylor. There is deep respect, understanding, and appreciation there... with none of the "dating" or "leave a hair" claptrap. Taylor was emotionally involved with his bees, as many of us are, without going off the deep end. And yes, I frequently talk to my bees, even without using profanity! ( I save that for when they're cranky or I mess up)
Didn't Ross write last month about global warming being a foregone conclusion and we needed to get involved to solve it? And yet the latest data from the British Meterological Office and the Climate Research Unit is that global temperatures have been flat for 15 years...not warming as everyone (including the British Met) scream. 
More sloppy articles like these, and I'm done with BC.

Regards,
Steven


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sinclairz said:


> OK... but at this point I still approach my hive with a gratefulness and wonder that is unmatched by anything else I do. I am awed by my bees and I go to a wonderful place when I'm dealing with them.


And don't ever lose that place you go when you are with your bees. Even after nearly 40 years, I find myself in that place from time to time.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

FRAMEshift said:


> What a statistical anomaly! 97% of the American public claim to believe in God. Yet 100% of the posters to this thread seem to be atheists... or hypocrites.


It's not atheism, it's anti-Dr. Doolittlleism.


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

Bingo Michael! I think that could have been brought out with better penmanship by Ross. That "place" is brought on by passion.

Steven, I missed the article last month. If it had a title or words of global warming in it, I would have blown right past anyway. Its going to take one heck of an author to be as good as Richard Taylor was. I have all his writings, and re-read them every few years. Never gets old.

Kind regards,


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It's okay to be "one w/ your bees" and to recognize the interdependent nature of our existense, just don't expect the bees to reciprocate. Talking to bees is okay too. But when they start talking back to you, in English, seek help from the psychiatric community.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well glad to hear that others talk to their bees!

I didn't really realise I did, until just a few days ago when i was working some hives, and the land owner walked over for a chat but approached through some trees and out of my line of vision. First I knew was I heard a loud "Ahem!!" behind me and realised I was saying things out loud like "I wonder how that new queen's going".

Not sure if I was more embarrased, or he was for me!


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Stonefly7 said:


> Bingo Michael! I think that could have been brought out with better penmanship by Ross. That "place" is brought on by passion.
> 
> Steven, I missed the article last month. If it had a title or words of global warming in it, I would have blown right past anyway. Its going to take one heck of an author to be as good as Richard Taylor was. I have all his writings, and re-read them every few years. Never gets old.
> 
> Kind regards,


Kudos to Taylor - he was incredible. The difference, I suppose, was that he was a philosophy professor and not a nut case.


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## Lauren (Jun 10, 2010)

It is funny that I think of myself as a Native American/hippie/earthy type....
I imagine I will always be in awe of nature in general and my bees specifically> I admit to talking to them, or rather NEAR them, but it is to settle MYSELF down, not to make conversation. If I left hair on their front porch I would think that i was just giving them something else to clean up. My thanks to them is in the care i try to take of them. I just don't see them admiring my music.

I guess for me, I don't ever expect THEM to be in awe of ME like I am of them.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I don't subscribe to BC and didn't read the article. With that said...

The original meaning of a 'date' was to schedule/have an appointment, albeit often used as a socially polite term for visiting a brothel. It did not develop romantic connotations until the 20th century when sexual relations became common in courtship. 

On the other hand, it's just good husbandry to make time for our livestock. It's easy to become wrapped up in our daily lives, and we forget to make time for things we need to do. Your livestock isn't going to come knock on your door and tell you when they are sick. Being a good steward means making the time to go watch them for unusual behaviors. (which requires studying them to learn usual behaviors.)

And it's easy to lose 15 minutes or a half hour watching bees in an observation hive...

Leaving a couple hairs seems nutty, but beekeepers often steal honey and then leave syrup for the bees. Maybe if we studied frames for a half hour the bees might tell us which sacrifice they prefer? Or not.


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> My chickens,on the other hand. We have a nice conversation every morning.


Same with my goats. They are pretty intelligent, smarter than the dog anyway, who is pretty smart.


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> It's okay to be "one w/ your bees" and to recognize the interdependent nature of our existense, just don't expect the bees to reciprocate. Talking to bees is okay too. But when they start talking back to you, in English, seek help from the psychiatric community.


Actually, if they talk back to you, that is fine also as long as it doesn't disrupt or have a negative impact your social, emotional and work life. If it does, then you do need to seek help and probably medication......... 

Speaking as a psychologist of course....


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## fuzzybeekeeper (Nov 23, 2005)

I have read of beekeepers in the back areas of South America putting a pair of their dirty underwear in the hive so the bees will become used to the smell and not be so agressive when the owner of that underewear opens up the hive.

I'm not sure if I don't like the unsanitarieness of this idea or if I have never had underwear dirty enough to qualify for this contribution.

While that might not be the defination of "being one with your bees", but I guess you could say they give what they can!

Fuzzybeekeeper


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

I enjoy threads like this and found parts of his book highly entertaining. To me, bees are just pretty neat, complex bugs, more like complex programmed robots than cognizant beings.. Disturb them for any reason and they'd rather sting the crap out of you than communicate with you. Or that is their communication with you, the end of their side of the conservation. 

On another note, my dad always went out to just watch them many times. He told me he did it to get them used to his smell so they wouldn't be so defensive when he worked the hives.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

I am wondering if people realize that during summer your bees will only live for 6 to 8 weeks so the bees you spend 30 mins with this week most likely will be different ones the next time you open your hive. I suspect the bees see any intrusion into the hive as just that, an intrusion. Pulling their hive apart to spend time with them just disrupts the hive. After reading the article I continue to wonder why some people continue to give human behavioral traits to things other than human. Bees are a fantastic instect and THEIR behavior is one we can learn from but to expect them to develop feelings and a relationship with an intrusive organism (the beekeeper) is really going over the top...I too am just shaking my head.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

alpha6 said:


> I am wondering if people realize that during summer your bees will only live for 6 to 8 weeks so the bees you spend 30 mins with this week most likely will be different ones the next time you open your hive.


All the more reason you should be spending quality time with your bees at the end of their lives. (wink.)

As for Mr, Conrad, I have read his book and other writings and I met him at the Common Ground Fair in Maine. He is most definitely not a "nut case" as he was desparagingly referred to.

I did not read his article in Bee Culture so can not comment on his intent. I would guess that his ideas go deeper than the superficial impressions a few out of context quotes might suggest.

Wayne


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

I haven't met him so I can only go by what he's written. I'm certain he's a good guy and his heart may be in the right place. From his book and especially this article, the management technique he advocates seems way too Lola Granola for me though.

Bottom line, they are insects. Not mater how much some try to anthropomorphize, studies and my own experiences have shown they do not recognize us. I will go great lengths to make sure they are healthy and safe but I find it absolutely foolish to "establish a relationship" with them.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

if one admittedly didn't read the article, how can one be sure that the quotes are being taken out of context? Lots of assuming there.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2010)

I'll often take my bees out to dinner and a movie. It's not really a date though, we're just friends.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I certainly don't begrudge Ross for being spiritual, but the sense that he's instructing people on how to act on that feeling is a bit odd in a Bee Journal. 

I find that whenever people get really fascinated by something, there is a tendency to become spiritual about it. 

And I think that's wonderful.

But I don't think it should mean making them into ourselves in our minds; turning them into creatures that love, and admire and make friends like we do. To me, that's actually missing the point.

Bees are a miracle, and infinite wonder already exists in what they ARE.

There's no need to make them into anything else. There's no need to apply any human attributes to their behavior. The fact that they are not like us at all is exactly why they are so mystifying...

...and begin to make us starry-eyed with wonder like children.



Adam


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

What I don't get in this thread is why people feel Ross's article shouldn't even be published in the magazine, and that he's a 'nutcase' etc etc. Agree with him or not, he's an experienced beekeeper and the magazine apparently is trying to present varied points of view. Um, is the world going to screech to a halt because some beekeeper is 'making a date' to sit with and watch his bees for 30 minutes or leaving some quirky little thank you token on the landing board?

I'm sure there is at least one article in every focused trade magazine that many people would strongly disagree with. _So what?_ People agree or don't agree on various points of view in beekeeping all the time- nobody _forces_ people to follow what is presented. Nothing genuinely dangerous or hurtful is being suggested.
If you don't like one article or feel it's a waste of time, why not just go on to the next article? Surely you can't expect to agree with every author's article? (and yes I'm calling you Shirley)
I haven't read the article nor have I read Ross's book. I've read a few beekeeping books and I find things in all of them I both agree and disagree with. But I learn from what I read on all sides. It's only by reading and listening to _various_ people's approaches to beekeeping that I am able to pick out my own path in what I hope is a balanced and sensible way.

Nothing wrong in reading an article and then thinking it's a bunch of bologna and moving on. But I do think it's wrong to say that article shouldn't be allowed to be published at all, or that the author is a 'nutcase'. I suspect _everyone_ who keeps bees is just a bit out of the ordinary anyway.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

bigbearomaha said:


> if one admittedly didn't read the article, how can one be sure that the quotes are being taken out of context?


No, not assuming when the original post ends quotes with lots of dots.

That tells me the one posting is selectively using only portions of the text.

Wayne


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Try reading the article before assuming the quotes are taken out of context. If you do you'll find the quotes follow the jist of the article very closely. I have difficulty taking someone seriously who hasn't read the article but already discounts others thoughts of it.


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

Folks in tune with nature!!! LOL!!! Wonder if he would feel the say way about some AHB's? Knew some folks that were real in tune with Grizzly bears....untill it ate them! My Bees are a business. Sure, their incredibly fascinating creatures, but we dont talk. I keep them in boxs, they make excess honey for further economic satisfaction for me. If they dont perform, i re-queen them! If they dont survive, i try to determine why, and replace them...Heartless, but necessary!:doh:


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## longrangedog (Jun 24, 2007)

D Coates said:


> Try reading the article before assuming the quotes are taken out of context. If you do you'll find the quotes follow the jist of the article very closely. I have difficulty taking someone seriously who hasn't read the article but already discounts others thoughts of it.


D Coates, You fail to recognize that some of us are so intellectual that we don't need facts before providing expert commentary.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

_"After reading the article I continue to wonder why some people continue to give human behavioral traits to things other than human. Bees are a fantastic instect and THEIR behavior is one we can learn from but to expect them to develop feelings and a relationship with an intrusive organism (the beekeeper) is really going over the top...I too am just shaking my head."_

I don't interpret any article written about bees/beekeeping in the style of the one being critisized, that the author is expecting a,.. "relationship",.to develope feelings,..a recipricol humanistic relationship with the bees. Where do you get that idea? I don't think that is the intent of any author that writes and explores the world of beekeeping such as Ross Conrad has done in this article.

I have been utterly bored with more than a few articles in both journals but this is the kind that typically gets pointed out as a waste of time and print space; why I don't know. I could point out some articles that seem to me a bit,.."preachy and upitty",... Example: "The New Paradigm for American Beekeeping" by K. Webster for example! March 2008, ABJ. Hey,. we can all join in and critique the articles in the Bee jounals can't we? 

Maybe these kinds of articles appeal to different kinds of beekeepers and seem of poor quality to some, but what's the point of critising them or pointing them out as,.."off the wall".

As long as we are "critiqueing" articles in bee journals, I would like to say that the 3 part articles, early this year in the ABJ by Peter Loring Borst was VERY nice and enjoyable reading. It was written in somewhat the same "naturalistic style" as the one by Ross Conrad but not in quite the,..anthropomorphic style that is being critized here.

I admire people that can write for magazines or journals like this. If they are on a deadline you should try your hand,..or pen  at it and see what you can do,...good luck .

I will be awaiting your insightful and "profound" article in ABJ or BC about beekeeping,..M. Palmer.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

D Coates said:


> I have difficulty taking someone seriously who hasn't read the article but already discounts others thoughts of it.


I did not discount anyone's thoughts of the article except, perhaps, for the highly insulting "nut-case" remark by HVH. As I said before, I find much of value and use in Ross Conrad's book and in videos that I have seen. Also my discussion with him in Maine impressed me as to his knowledge and his dedication to beekeeping. HVH's derogatory remark, in my opinion, is ill-informed and wrong. 

Wayne


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Oldbee said:


> I admire people that can write for magazines or journals like this. If they are on a deadline you should try your hand,..or pen  at it and see what you can do,...good luck .
> 
> I will be awaiting your insightful and "profound" article in ABJ or BC,..M. Palmer.


Wait no longer Oldbee...

See:

Overnight Splits,_Bee Culture Magazine_April, 2004, Vol., 132, No. 4

Managing Nucs, _Bee Culture Magazine_April, 2006, Vol.,134, No. 4

Nucs, Not just for increase anymore, _Bee Culture Magazine_March, 2010, Vol 138 No 3


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

Ooops! I'll have to go back and,..check them out.

Be prepared for some adverse, maybe some harsh criticism. 

Whaa happened M. Palmer,.did the article you submitted for the Dec. issue get rejected?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

MP... ... Priceless.:applause:

The editor is full of it... sure we all can be amazed by the social order of a colony... but he just needs a date WITH A HUMAN!!! Bees are a huge part of my life... But my wife and children are more important... the time that he spends blowing kisses at nurse bees, he could be spending with his family...

I spend hours upon hours at a time observing... but because I have to in order to be precise in my research... not because the bees and I are forming some sort of bond... What a dope... BC should really consider drug screening...:lpf::lpf:

BEFORE YOU SEND YOUR HATE MAIL!!!

I have not read the article... wouldn't care to... just a simple opinion based on what I have read here, and in no way am I truely knocking the editor... just some of the things that he has said... I hear this sort of "mumbo jumbo" all the time... I will say that bees that are worked daily, will become more acclimated to your presence... But come on... Gifts to win their hearts?? Does anyone actually think that they are looking up at you from the frames saying "yay! the martian god has returned!"... think again...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Oldbee said:


> Ooops! I'll have to go back and,..check them out.
> 
> Be prepared for some adverse, maybe some harsh criticism.
> 
> Whaa happened M. Palmer,.did the article you submitted for the Dec. issue get rejected?


Didn't get one in for December. I'm old like you Oldbee and between wiping the spittle off my chin and napping, it takes me all winter to write a piece for the magazine. It's difficult to get my addled brain to function because I don't have the intellect of some well known authors.

Ahh...but then you knew that. _Think smiley with tongue sticking out_ 'cause I haven't a clue how to paste it here...
Mike


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Oldbee said:


> I admire people that can write for magazines or journals like this. If they are on a deadline you should try your hand,..or pen  at it and see what you can do,...good luck .
> 
> I will be awaiting your insightful and "profound" article in ABJ or BC about beekeeping,..M. Palmer.


Well looks like someone just found a new person to admire!!

And more insights to look forward to.


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## PCM (Sep 18, 2007)

Must say;
Mike Palmer is not only a writer, he is also a great public speaker.

He was a speaker for the Missouri State Beekeepers Association this Fall in Cape Girardeau, Missouri.

:lookout: PCM


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Oldbee said:


> Ooops! I'll have to go back and,..check them out.
> 
> Be prepared for some adverse, maybe some harsh criticism.
> 
> Whaa happened M. Palmer,.did the article you submitted for the Dec. issue get rejected?


Cute sniping... so when can we read your submissions to BC?
I imagine more than one of us writes as part of our work, and have deadlines to meet. We have to be creative and informative. We also know editors make value judgments as to what is worthy of publication, and what is not. Some people like fluff and inanity, others do not. It's a free country, read it or skip it. 
My point is that in this age of diminishing financial resources for many folks, choices are made of which publications are worth the subscription price. For me, a journal that takes an obvious political slant, or regularly prints stuff like the article in question, moves further down my list of "must" haves.
Regards,
Steven


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> ...I don't have the intellect of some well known authors.


heh, i wouldn't wish "the intellect of some well known authors" on my worst enemy!

Ramona's father tells the story of the politician out kissing babies....when he comes across the ugliest baby he has ever seen. This activity usually requires praising the parents for such a beautiful baby...but he must also make sure not to get caught lying...so what comes out is:

"Now _that's_ a baby!"

deknow (who almost hit post with the word "intellect" misspelled)


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Omie said:


> Native Americans practiced things like thanking an animal they killed for meat, or symbolically honoring a tree they felled to make a canoe. They felt it was part of being in harmony with the natural world they were a part of. Is there something so wrong with these concepts that they should be ridiculed?


Not that I am of "of the cloth" so to speak, but having spent a lot of time with Native American Indian people, what they did historically was to offer up things in response to taking. So for example they would leave tobacco or pollen or something like that when killing an animal or felling a tree- that was there acknowledgment that they took something and that they gave back something in return. Seems to me we would be in a better place if more people viewed the world that way. They also believe that we are all related, and everything is connected... plants, animals, humans, birds, fish... but they have a much more poetic way of saying that which I would not waste repeating here since so many of you seem to think this is all hogwash hippie tree hugger talk. 

While the article that started this whole thread may have been real high on the "fuh fuh" end of the ricter scale....I gotta say that I totally support the concept of communication with the natural world. Especially having just spent an evening with Cleve Backster, the father of "Plants Have Feelings" and author of some of the seminal work on Primary Perception (my husband helped out with some of those original experiments in the 1960's and I even met that famous phylodendron). Look the dude up and see for yourself. He aint your stereotypical "tree hugger" - some of his background includes founding the CIA polygraph unit in the 1940's


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## wildflowerlanehoney (Aug 17, 2010)

i cant believe i just read all of this......


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

waynesgarden said:


> I did not discount anyone's thoughts of the article except, perhaps, for the highly insulting "nut-case" remark by HVH. As I said before, I find much of value and use in Ross Conrad's book and in videos that I have seen. Also my discussion with him in Maine impressed me as to his knowledge and his dedication to beekeeping. HVH's derogatory remark, in my opinion, is ill-informed and wrong.
> 
> Wayne


Your right - "nut case" was a bit harsh. I went back and read that post and thought it was a bit insulting. My apologies to anyone that happens to enjoy that style of writing.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

rrussell6870 said:


> MP... ... Priceless.:applause:
> 
> The editor is full of it... sure we all can be amazed by the social order of a colony... but he just needs a date WITH A HUMAN!!! Bees are a huge part of my life... But my wife and children are more important... the time that he spends blowing kisses at nurse bees, he could be spending with his family...
> 
> ...


I suspect your visceral response is similar to mine for the same reason - a background in science. You can't do research for many years without being a facts junky. My mistake is to think that others reason similarly and they just don't.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

HVH said:


> I suspect your visceral response is similar to mine for the same reason - a background in science. You can't do research for many years without being a facts junky. My mistake is to think that others reason similarly and they just don't.


I disagree with you. It doesn't take a background in science to think similarly. But it does take a lifetime of developing common sense. But then again maybe I do agree with you as common sense is supported by science in almost all cases, and vice-versa.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Sorry if the implication was an if-and-only-if statement. Many disciplines deal in logic while many of the liberal arts are more emotive. Some of us just aren't wired for the emotive approach to life. I used to watch Bob Ross on PBS on occasion because I was truly amazed with what this guy could paint in short order. I just had to tune out all the touchy feely remarks and enjoy the paint job.


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## Deeptime (Jul 21, 2009)

yep, my reaction was the same, "this guy has some serious New-Age issues".

I'm not for industry-farming our bee relationship into being just another input to our food factory, but jeezo-pete, leaving a few hairs as a sacrifice???inch:inch:inch:


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

wildflowerlanehoney said:


> i cant believe i just read all of this......


I feel the same way...:doh:


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## honeydreams (Aug 10, 2009)

One thing not pointed out here about Ross's Artical, Is one thing that he points out very well, and it applies to all beekeepers. Some beeks will do anything to boost production even to the point of lossing the hive over the winter for a few extra pounds of Honey. Or compleatly egnore their bees and let them suffer from diesease and parasites. And if people treated their dogs and cats like some beekeepers treat their bees. they would go to jail for animal crulity. Now I am para praraphrasing his words do to the fact i don't have my copy of BC infront of me. But if my memory serves me that was the first two paragrafts. So maybe his writings struck a nerve as well with those that want to tear him down?


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## kwest (May 16, 2009)

hairs is all that he leaves. Id fill jipped. I alway prick my finger and give em a few drops of blood on the landing board.  what do you guys give em? sounds like someone has a real problem with worshiping his bees. that is not who he should be giving the credit to. :no:


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

For me, there is a difference between "touchy-feely" and "dating" my insect friends (or my dogs, for that matter) and the Judeo-Christian concept of the stewardship of creation. It really chaps my butt that a few beeks have as their economic model installing packages at the beginning of the season, then taking all the honey, then either selling off or killing off the bees. It's one thing to sell them off, but ....

As several have pointed out, we are responsible for the bees in our care. Of course we harvest honey, wax, propolis, and whatever we can get from them. But most of us realize that if we take care of the bees, they'll take care of us. Same thing is true of all our endeavors, whether we farm, ranch, or work in corporate America and have to deal with people instead of insects or animals. The successful farmer or rancher knows this truth also... take care of the land, or the livestock, and they'll take care of you. Exploit it, your profits may be higher in the short term, but eventually it will catch up with you. Or with your successors. 

And while I'm on my soap box, what really frosts me are those "religious" people who think the verses in the book of Genesis in the Jewish-Christian scriptures speaking of "dominion" means exploitation, instead of stewardship of creation. All great religions have a concept of stewardship of creation, reflected also in, as has been pointed out, Native American and other "nativistic" religions. For most however, that concept is honored more in the breach than in the observance, and more's the pity.

I for one didn't knock Conrad for his concepts of the care of creation, but for other reasons. I still think that was a waste of ink and space that could have been put to better use.
Now, I apologize for the soap box....
Regards,
Steven


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## honeydreams (Aug 10, 2009)

Steven Well said.


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## BeeMan_2010 (Jan 7, 2010)

A-man Steven Well said!! I'll give you a double :thumbsup:


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## MastoDon (Nov 29, 2010)

Maybe the author of that article belongs in the same classification as Timothy Treadwell, the apparently spacey Californian who lived with "his" brown bears in Alaska with his girlfriend, until one of the critters attacked and feasted on him in his tent a few years ago.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

HVH said:


> I just had to tune out all the touchy feely remarks and enjoy the paint job.


You want another nice little tree. Then put one right over here. It's really ok. It's your painting. See, isn't that a nice little tree.

Brush, brush, brush, brush...


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

MastoDon said:


> Maybe the author of that article belongs in the same classification as Timothy Treadwell, the apparently spacey Californian who lived with "his" brown bears in Alaska with his girlfriend, until one of the critters attacked and feasted on him in his tent a few years ago.



Feasted on him and his girlfreind! That i would call the extreme of "Unrealistic expectations of the Human/Earthly creature interface"! Bees, i think you'll get a fair better treatment from them than you would a Grizzly! But, i digress since this has now reached biblical overtones!!!:doh:


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> You want another nice little tree. Then put one right over here. It's really ok. It's your painting. See, isn't that a nice little tree.
> 
> Brush, brush, brush, brush...


I LOVED that guy....but only on mute......who else could paint with a spatula like that?


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

This thread has reached the century mark, and seems to be winding down. 
I just want to maybe clarify some, for me, puzzling statements occasionaly. I believe that some of the posters may have been referring to Ross Conrads November BC article. I didn't read it in it's entirety either. To me it was also somewhat a waste of good magazine columns. I'm sure Mr. Conrad is a very knowledgeable beekeeper and is a capable writer. I don't subscribe with the feel good side of bees that he does. No one tries to take better care of his bees than I do. Shucks, I try my best not to mash any anytime I take the top off or the hive apart. I also try to be realistic. Which if you are realistic I don't see how you could find his writings of late interesting.


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## hemichuck (Oct 27, 2009)

I havnt read this article yet but it sounds "interesting". I'm not sure about getting real up close and personal with my bees but I do spend enough time with them to know the hives different personalities.At this point in life I leave a little hair (and sweat)offering pretty much everywhere I go.I know that since I started beekeeping that the bees in general(not just mine) seem to come around and check me out.Sometimes I will be sitting in my truck and a bee will fly in the window and land and check me out a little bit and then fly off.This has happened on numerous occasions and in locations that dont have anything to do with my beekeeping.I kind of figure they are like dogs or cats,if they know your not afraid of them they will come sniffing around.I never had any bees do that before I started beekeeping.I do enjoy watching the things they do.I still get tickled every time that I thump into something and a single bee will walk out on the landing board with her tail in the air just to let me(all 300 pounds of me) that she is going to kick my butt!
Just for the record,this board is not 100% athiest,I'm a firm believer and Christian through and through and I'm not afraid to say it.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

the bees got me pulling out my hair at times, but not for those reasons.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

hemichuck said:


> Just for the record,this board is not 100% athiest,I'm a firm believer and Christian through and through and I'm not afraid to say it.


Well siad, I ditto that.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

hemichuck said:


> Just for the record,this board is not 100% athiest,I'm a firm believer and Christian through and through and I'm not afraid to say it.


I for one appreciate your stand! As a scientist, I am caught in a mix of many non-believers... as a faithful servant of the lord, I am saddened by the waste of all of those brilliant people. Faith and science coexist, but too many are not able to believe in something that they can't recreate or understand themselves... to me science should be more of a way to understand this awesome world that we were given...a means to better our ways of caring for it and all of its inhabitants... we are not able to answer EVERYTHING because some things are simply beyond our capabilities to comprehend. I am proud of my faith and proud of any others that stand up to acknowledge theirs.
:thumbsup:


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

I think it'd be foolish to assume a forum is 100% anything! Forums are far more interesting and conducive to learning when members have a good variety of beliefs (and not just talking about religious beliefs, but _all_ kinds of beliefs including practical).
If we were all the same, forums would be boring and we'd never have the opportunity to learn things from each other!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

fuzzybeekeeper said:


> I have read of beekeepers in the back areas of South America putting a pair of their dirty underwear in the hive so the bees will become used to the smell and not be so agressive when the owner of that underewear opens up the hive.


I can't imagine that such people have enuf underwear to do this. Seems silly to me. Which may say more about me then them.


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## hemichuck (Oct 27, 2009)

Dude....I cant imagine anything even staying in the hive with a pair of my dirty underwear and I sure as heck wouldnt be eating anything out of that hive.I dont even like to keep my dirty underwear in my house....straight in the washer.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Just read it last night, its in my December BC. He is a little out there.
I think I get the main point of the article to be, Pay as much attention, & care to you're bees as you do you're 4 legged pets.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

KQ6AR said:


> Pay as much attention, & care to you're bees as you do you're 4 legged pets.


Why though?

Our 4 legged pets want and need our companionship. But our bees see no need for us in their lives.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Maybe it's partly about the benefits _we_ get out it when we 'connect' with the creatures we raise/keep ?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, if it's about the benefits for us, probably true.

There is just something "feel good" about working a hive. Even my wife, who is very much a city girl, enjoyed opening hives with me immediately when we first met, and she still does. 

I'm wondering if there is some smell or something, from the hive, that puts us in a better mood.


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## lstclair (Mar 6, 2007)

Hawkster said:


> why stop at a few hairs? a finger maybe ?


My dog sometimes left part of himself on the side of the hive...


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## catdance62 (Jan 16, 2010)

I talk to my bees, but I know they can't hear me! That's as far as it goes though!


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> I'm wondering if there is some smell or something, from the hive, that puts us in a better mood.


For me it's the _humm_, the vibration in and around the hive from thousands of tiny wings. It's like being in the middle of an air massage, or some cosmic "Om" chant or something. It's very relaxing and comforting, along with the delightful smell of beeswax!


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