# Beleaguered Florida Citrus Industry Hits New Snags



## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Beleaguered Florida Citrus Industry Hits New Snags

By Ashley Lopez

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: 

Florida's citrus industry has a new problem. It's long wrestled with crop diseases like canker and greening. But the effort to halt greening has killed millions of bees, as growers have increased their use of pesticides. 

And that, in turn, is straining relationships between citrus farmers and their longtime partners, beekeepers. Here's Ashley Lopez of member station WGCU. 

ASHLEY LOPEZ, BYLINE: Harold Curtis runs an 1,100-acre grove in southwest Florida. He walks through the rows of trees, packed full of plump, juicy oranges. 

HAROLD CURTIS: This is all juice fruit. And this is a Hamlin, which will start being picked around the first of December. 

LOPEZ: Growing oranges is hard work, and Curtis says it's even harder these days. Citrus greening, which is caused by bacteria, has devastated his grove for a couple years now. 

CURTIS: I mean, you can see, a lot of this fruit right here on the ground, that's greening. 

LOPEZ: As he talks, Curtis kicks around shrunken oranges. Greening makes the fruit ripen quickly and fall before they're grown. It can also kill the tree. Curtis says the only way to save his grove is to spray pesticides to kill off insects called psyllids that spread the greening. 

CURTIS: Before you had all these greening problems and canker problems, you know, you were probably spraying maybe three times a year, where now some of these people are spraying 10 times a year. 

LOPEZ: This year, the state of Florida fined a big grower $1,500 after the overuse of a pesticide killed millions of bees. The incident strained the relationship between citrus growers and beekeepers. Beekeepers from all over country put their hives in orange groves during winter to keep their bees alive. The bees, in turn, also help pollinate the trees. They also produce the popular orange blossom honey. 

Ron Hamel of the Gulf Citrus Growers Association says the industry needs bees and the bees need the trees. 

RON HAMEL: They are still very important and the industry looks at them as working symbiotically with the growers to live together in that grove environment. 

LOPEZ: In an effort to ensure there isn't another bee-killing incident, Florida officials have told both industries to coordinate better. Like citrus, pollination is big business. Keith Councell is president of Florida's Beekeepers Association. He says their organization is concerned. 

KEITH COUNCELL: We're losing bees faster than we can replace them. So if we have to move our bees away from the citrus groves for a while until they can correct this problem, that's what we are going to do. 

LOPEZ: Florida is the nation's largest citrus producer, worth at least $9 billion annually. By some estimates, greening has cost the state's growers almost a billion dollars and the bee deaths just make the problem worse. 

(SOUNDBITE OF BEES BUZZING) 

LOPEZ: Rene Pratt runs a honey store in the city of LaBelle, surrounded by orange groves. Pratt says she's one of a few commercial beekeepers still in the area. She and other beekeepers have had a tough couple of years. 

RENE PRATT: Like everything else, we have to overcome it and we have to work together. And we've been very fortunate with our growers that we have worked and have a good relationship with them. But they have to take care of their fruit and vegetables, and we have to take care of our honeybees. 

LOPEZ: Several weeks ago, Florida's Agriculture chief, Adam Putnam, sat down with business leaders from both industries. He said preserving the relationship between citrus and beekeepers is one of his biggest priorities. 

For NPR News, I'm Ashley Lopez in Fort Myers. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
http://wlrn.org/post/beleaguered-florida-citrus-industry-hits-new-snags


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

the situation there is much like it is everywhere.. the farmers need to spray.... the beekeepers need to protect the bees. Beekeeping seems to be growing, and in many states there are now laws to protect the bees... out here, if people get bees, they register their hives with the state.. and poof.. no spraying within a mile or two.. dont remember the exact distance... but as more bees are registered, I can see the situation coming to a showdown. "most" beekeepers have a few hives that are NOT their main source of income... the farmers crops ARE their main source of income.. when it comes right down to it... the MONEY always wins... I grew up with farmers. I worked for farmers, and have my own land that is farmed... Now I keep bees, and am working hard to expand.. so I see both sides of the coin without having to flip it.. Honestly.. i see no quick fix. In looking ahead, I can only see legal actions being taken that will be detrimental to the bees. Those who have the most money can buy whatever laws they need.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why we as a country need to stop listening to the "GMO is the evil boogieman thats going to shoot your wife and rape your dog!" nonsense and accept that it is our best hope of solving these kinds of problems.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

How dare you speak the thing that is true! You are not going to be popular with those who think reality equals what they want to believe.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Is that the same Boogie Man as the 'Trans Fats are safe for human consumption' Boogieman? After most baby boomers have ingested Trans Fats for 40 or 50 years, I think our Erring on the side of caution is more than warranted.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I think edymnion is just saying for disease resistance biotech offers a quick and effective stop gap. It's saved the papaya industry and certain squash viruses. Greening is bacteria induced though which may be a tougher nut to crack than virus resistance.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I love science. You'd think GMO's would be of interest to me. They actually are and they are fascinating. But we will never agree on their use in general food production and for feed intended for livestock. We've been misled too many times in the past to believe almost anything we are told now. It's too bad, I believe_ most_ GMO's are safe and extremely productive. Unfortunately I for one don't trust those that tell us we should blindly believe in the safety. Without inside knowledge and years of testing, there is just no way to tell, therefore we discredit them all.


At least label the GMO's. Don't say it's safe then try to hide it. People will eat it anyway, I have no doubt.

Just don't make ME pay for there health care.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I agree Lauri, for some things they make perfect sense, but the effect on the pocketbook for farmers has taken over, they 'need' it to stay profitable for some reason but then things like golden rice get held back and it's being offered for free....

That being said, this whole citrus thing is becoming interesting. Obviously the solution shouldn't be just spray more pesticides because we know how that always turns out. Just might take some years or decades to sort out some resistant stock.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

A few years ago I was told by an entomologist that the Florida citrus industry would no longer exist in another decade. The heavier application of specific pesticides is their effort to extend the life of the industry. Most probably know it is only a matter of time but….if you owned a thousand acre orange grove and your livelihood depended on it you might try most anything to keep afloat for a bit longer.
For those of us who aren’t under such pressure it can be easy to point out the futility.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Many concerns I have about current events these days, is the position of vulnerability we ultimately find ourselves in when we become DEPENDANT. Dependent on electricity, Dependent on the communications technology. Dependant on biotech for agricultural output. 

When it comes right down to Energy and AG production, population control is the REAL issue. But that will never be addressed. The demand for continually increased energy and food production is on an unprecedented scale. I don't see how it is sustainable without eventual failure. We may enjoy the benefits of biotech for many years...until problems once again mutate and appear. Then there may be nothing better we can come up with. We've use all the cards up our sleeve . And because these industries are on such an immense scale, failure will likely be catastrophic.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Another approach that offers 'hope'.

http://cisr.ucr.edu/urbanACP/?p=80


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Lauri said:


> I don't see how it is sustainable without eventual failure.
> 
> And because these industries are on such an immense scale, failure will likely be catastrophic.


I can't argue with either of these points. 
And I don't see anything that can or will be done to prevent the eventual, certain, calamitous failure. I surely fear for my grandchildren.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I fear I have veered off topic. I apologise.


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## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

The result of the catastrophe will be that we go back to children getting oranges in their stockings for Christmas, with them being so rare and expensive. I'm not at all certain that this wouldn't be a good thing. Unsustainable agriculture shouldn't, and the quicker it dies, the quicker we can move forward.

I am quite aware that the statements above have a direct impact on people's livelihoods. But, it is an inconvenient truth that people have to adapt, or die. Those with orange groves need to figure out what they're going to do once the apocalypse happens, and START doing it now to even out the effects on themselves. Just like that old story about the buggy makers when Henry Ford came along. They were either in the buggy business or the transportation business. If the former they died. If the latter, it opened their minds up to perhaps how to fit in the new economy.

Diversify now, or die later. Same is true for the pollinators. If their business model is ALL on pollinating crops, they should think about how to diversify and have other bee products as part of their portfolio of offerings. Or find some non-bee offerings to go along with their pollinating. Maybe they're in the "fragile living-cargo business" instead of just transporting their hives around.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

'The result of the catastrophe will be that we go back to children getting oranges in their stockings for Christmas'

LOL, rweaver7777, you're showing your age 
Your statements are true, as painful as they will be to adjust to after all the years of accessibility to everything at any time.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

In all honesty, while it would be bad for the Florida growers, it wouldn't be a horrible thing for the rest of us.

Florida is not the only state that can grow oranges, and even if it were in this day and age importing of fruit is much more of an option than it was 50 years ago.

The price of my OJ may go up, but I will still be able to walk into any store and buy it even if every orange tree in Florida dies.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

Lauri said:


> Is that the same Boogie Man as the 'Trans Fats are safe for human consumption' Boogieman? After most baby boomers have ingested Trans Fats for 40 or 50 years, I think our Erring on the side of caution is more than warranted.


A more apt analogy would be the marijuana boogie man. Hemp was an incredibly important crop plant. Hemp oil could be used for virtually anything petroleum oil was used for, and hemp fibers made high grade paper and even clothing. Hemp rope was renowned for it's strength and durability. It was actually mandated that states grow a certain amount of it every year for the sake of national security.

Then in the 20's and 30's, oil and paper companies (including the likes of Dupont) teamed up and started the smear campaign against hemp so that their more expensive wood based paper and petroleum based products could take over. They changed the name of the plant to marijuana so that the populace wouldn't realize what they were talking about, then connected it to the wave of Mexican immigrants that were coming in as being a dangerous drug that would make anyone that smoked it crazy. They made such infamous "informational films" as Reefer Madness and worked the public into a tizzy. After that, the plant was outlawed and Dupont and friends went on to make a great deal of money selling their competing product without competition.

I see the current state of GMO's as being in the same place hemp was in the 20's. A threat to the big companies that are doing everything in their power to turn the public against a product they can't legitimately compete against, hoping it will be outlawed and/or driven out of the market.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Edymnion said:


> in this day and age importing of fruit is much more of an option than it was 50 years ago.


Do you believe that those exporting countries produce oranges (or anything else) in a more sustainable fashion? Do you think that the costs of transportation will not eventually rise to the point that, one day....maybe sooner than we realize...... those imported commodities may become a luxury available only to the most affluent?
Over time you may discover that it is a whole lot more than the price of your oj going up...and the products you can get may be more contaminated than you imagine.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

beemandan said:


> Do you believe that those exporting countries produce oranges (or anything else) in a more sustainable fashion? Do you think that the costs of transportation will not eventually rise to the point that, one day....maybe sooner than we realize...... those imported commodities may become a luxury available only to the most affluent?


You mean like the other exotic fruits that aren't commercially grown in the US that can still be found in grocery stores across the country? Like bananas? I can even buy dragon fruit here locally, and I'm pretty sure there are no American farmers with acre upon acre of them growing.



> Over time you may discover that it is a whole lot more than the price of your oj going up...and the products you can get may be more contaminated than you imagine.


My good sir, what is grown here is contaminated by many things as well.

Unless you juice your own oranges, you've likely never tasted actual orange juice. Even the "never from concentrate" stuff is blanched of all flavor during pasteurization and then re-flavored with artificial chemicals. Why do you think a given brand of OJ manages to always taste the same, no matter what year it is or what kinds of oranges go into it?


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## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

beemandan said:


> ...and the products you can get may be more contaminated than you imagine.


Because of this issue, I almost said something about growing your own food earlier but didn't. I figure that's where I personally will end up, with a few goats, a garden, chickens and maybe a milk cow. And bees of course, once the farmers around me can't afford to farm anymore (or at least can't afford to spray).


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I am not criticizing farmers. Commercial AG is* most* difficult. I am supportive and very sympathetic to their difficulties. I am simply concerned about where we are headed with the farming practices of today..and where it will lead us tomorrow. I assume many farmers are being forced into such high production, Biotech is the only way, or will soon become the only way to stay in business for the time being.

I am aware of the current Citrus problems. In fact, Around 2009, I shipped in several Citrus tree grafts to raise myself from Ca. Grow citrus in Washington State you ask? Well they grow great here outside in the summer months, with protection in the winter months. 
My grandmother always had a lemon tree in her sunroom. Covered with aphids, yes, but it still did amazingly well. I was mesmerized by the big lemons hanging from that small tree when I was a youngster. 
I have lemons, limes, several kinds of oranges and mandarins. Even grapefruit. I get a small but flavorful harvest. Not enough for much yet, the trees are still young and I prune them hard to keep them within bounds for pot culture., but enough for this:

You may have seen this photo floating around on the Internet, but it IS my photo.



















Here are a couple of the young citrus trees sitting in the greenhouse to over winter. I do grow them organically of course. Just spray off the bugs with a spray of water when necessary. But to grow them on a large scale? Organically? Impossible I think. (Other plant is a hacked back Jade plant)
But in the event of the citrus collapse, My grandchildren _might_ just have the opportunity to have a citrus in their Christmas stocking.











You all speculate about the future availability from other sources. I prefer to keep production and quality control IN my control when ever possible. Growing, harvesting and preserving your harvest is a LOT of work. But it is worth it in my opinion. Do it, even on a small scale if you can. 
I've worked my place 2.5 acres for over 35 years organically. Raised 6 kids. This lifestyle was my choice and it has worked well for us. Maybe it's not for everyone. That's their choice.

About the only thing I don't have here is dairy, coffee and chocolate But then, I could improvise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9uzDHh2N4E


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Transfats, Marijuana & Hemp..., from an orange greening related article? Transfats, much ado about nothing but one more intrusion by the elite to "help us" from those they deem undesirable. Show me one person who it can be proven to have died from consuming transfats. Next, the elite will save us from sodas, candies, and fast food! 

Marijuana and Hemp are two related but distinctly different plants grown for different purposes. Try entering the US with both and see what happens. GMO's scaring Big AG?... uh, check the bong water. GMO's are made by Big Ag. 

Be careful for what you wish for. If everything had to be completely 100% certified as unequivocally safe to everything in all combinations at all times, forever, we'd still be in the testing and certification phase of using fire and wearing animal skins. Undoubtedly, both would fail by todays standards.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Well, my dad who was born in 1925 is long dead. No doubt partly from consuming pounds of margarine deemed healthy, instead of real butter, deemed deadly. Also from the cigarettes they swore were not addictive or unhealthy.

He suffered several heart attacks in his early 50's and lived the remainder of his life somewhat crippled and in pain.


*Todays standards*. 

What does that phrase even MEAN? Just because many Americans are 50- 100 pounds overweight, it is OK? Just because there are so many people in the world to feed, risking potential serious health problems from food produced in a mannor that is not proven safe..it is OK? 

I'm just trying to understand your point of view.

I guess MY point here is-Grow it yourself it you can. 

Or be subject to '*Todays Standards'*


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Todays standards, ie. it's got to be idiot proof.

1) Nothing said not to stick my hand in the fire therefor it's dangerous even deadly. (Common sense is no longer acceptable.) 

2) Breathing the smoke from fire is detrimental to ones long term health. (Uh, the coughing should have told you that) 

3) Fire can get away from it's source and create wildfires, destroying forests and all that live in it. (Yea, it's supposed to do that, but who didn't see Bambi and heard Smokey the Bear warn us of the dangers of forest fires?) 

4) The gasses from fire create global cooling, then warming, now it's climate change. (Listen to any environmentalist from the 70's to today)

Try to tell me by "todays standards" fire wouldn't have all types of groups demanding it not be accepted for general use by the public or wanting more study on the subject.

You're asking for proof that mass food production is safe. How do I do this in a manner that satisfies everyone? Some of whom will never be satisfied because they don't want mass produced food. They will forever throw up roadblocks as a strategy. Putting up unproven innuendoes until the actual goal of putting Big Ag out of business is reached.

Just because you think your father died due to transfats does not make it so. Why do you believe the folks who used to say ( to name a few) tobacco, eggs (cholesterol), apples (Alar), coffee (blood pressure), salt (blood pressure) and transfats are fine, or visa versa? Are they suddenly trustworthy? Nope, probably less. Use common sense everything in moderation. Apples, eggs, salt, and coffee are now said to be okay.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Growing your own food always sounds so romantic, but in reality it is a lot of work. My wife and I left the city 30 years ago and bought an old farm home place 1/3rd of an acre. We grow our own veggies and freeze and can some of our surplus usually with enough left over to donate to the local food bank. We usually put up 80 quarts of canned tomatoes, 30 lbs of frozen carrots, 25lbs of green beans, 800 lbs of potatoes dug over 3 days that mainly go to other family members. We knocked our hogs down yesterday and will spend the next 3 days cutting and wrapping the meat. We butchered 75 broiler chickens last week and I get up every morning and feed and water our laying hens, then I collect the eggs wash them and put them in cartons. I had to feed the hogs every day for 5 months and the broilers for two and a half months. We also dry 4 bushels of apple slices from our 2 trees and freeze strawberries from our patch. What I'm trying to point out is that if we totaled all the time we spent growing and preserving our own food it would probably amount to a solid month and a half of 8 hours a day labor. Not to mention that sometimes what we preserve can be bought in a supermarket for less than what it costs us to produce. Now we've added bees to our work load, but we can do all this because we are semi retired. When you work a full time job and are raising children it is hard to find enough hours in the day for all the work that alone takes. While it sounds very noble and the quality control is nice, not everyone can raise their own food.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

It is a lot of work, you have to want to do it and find it rewarding in itself. we do much of what you are doing (with young kids and jobs) and most folks think we are nut....some days I have to agree.
What impresses me is your pulling that off on 1/3 of an Acre! How are you packing that all in?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I'm not familiar with orange production. Do growers want bees around orange groves? Pollination equals bigger better fruit, but it also means larger seeds. I was under the impression many groves netted their trees to inhibit pollination. Am I right or wrong about that, or am I thinking of mandarins ?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I believe for certain varieties they don't want bees, some need them.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

That's a tough rub, if growers look as bees being a pest, they are appt to treat them like pests.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I don't think they see them as pests, but the need to spray for psyllids is greater then their concern for any bees around.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

windfall said:


> What impresses me is your pulling that off on 1/3 of an Acre! How are you packing that all in?


He has only done it for a couple of years. It is not sustainable without chemicals.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> He has only done it for a couple of years. 

Reading is FUNdamental! :lookout:



Colino said:


> Growing your own food always sounds so romantic, but in reality it is a lot of work. My wife and I [HIGHLIGHT] left the city 30 years ago [/HIGHLIGHT] and bought an old farm home place 1/3rd of an acre.


:gh:


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Ian said:


> I'm not familiar with orange production. Do growers want bees around orange groves?


I think most do; however, I once had a run in with a 'grower' who was spraying his trees to get rid of the bees---'made seeds in the oranges', said he.

Lauri, I must say you are hard core, as is Colino. I'm impressed with what you guys are doing. Myself, I can grow all kinds of citrus, avocados, mangoes and lychees, but my raspberries all died, can't grow Mediterranean fruits, and any tomato but cherry is difficult at best. So, that's where trade comes in, but I am a strong believer in eating that which is in season rather than something shipped from far away.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Hi Windfall:
Our gardens are in 3 plots 30x40ft, 25x30ft and 25x25ft on an acre that we rent from our neighbor which also has our water dugout on it and animal husbandry takes little area. Our hog pen is 20x20ft, our hen house is 10x8ft our broiler house is 10x12ft. We try to do and make everything ourselves. Hogs and chickens could care less if their house is built from scavenged lumber and all the manure helps with growing the veggies. The best part of our life is we own a mobile concession and only work 2 months of the year or may I say actually 5 weekends. http://www.chubbychuckschicken.com/index.html We will never be rich but we are happy and free.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Hi Acebird:
I really don't use chemicals because things where I need to use them I don't grow, like all the cruciferous veggies(ie. cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli etc.) The loopers are just too numerous here because of the alfalfa. I can't even use the BT bacteria because I can't keep up with them. Potato bugs are a slight problem but they can be hand picked but you have to be diligent and they don't show up every year. The only place I use pesticide is these **** little red ants that don't eat but suck the juice out of my romaine lettuce causing them to rot off and die. For them I do use home made borax ant traps so I don't have to apply it directly to my lettuce and I purposely over plant Romaine to keep ahead of the ants. One thing I would like to mention is my father bought me Dick Raymonds' book on gardening years ago and I use his methods which works well in keeping pests down. Also, we pass all our garden waste through the hogs and chickens which help keep the pests from over wintering and in the fall after the garden is harvested I let the laying hens run in the garden patches and throughout the yard eating any pestilence they can catch. The only thing with them running in the yard is all the doo doo landmines you have to side step.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

[
At least label the GMO's. Don't say it's safe then try to hide it. People will eat it anyway, I have no doubt.

Just don't make ME pay for there health care.[/QUOTE]

That is silly and a waste of money. It would be much simpler and less costly to label foods that do NOT contain GMO's since virtually everything we eat has been affected. I personally would prefer to know which foods do not contain GMO's so that I could avoid them, because if they do not contain GMO's they, like the oranges in this story, have probably been sprayed many, many times. I would rather take my chances with a few rearranged naturally ocurring amino acids than synthetic insecticides and antibiotics.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I agree it would be more simple to label food that is GMO free. Problem with that is it Implies GMO food is less healthy that non GMO food, which potentially leads to lawsuits. Look at the history with RbSG labeling. 

' I would rather take my chances with a few rearranged naturally ocurring amino acids than synthetic insecticides and antibiotics.'

I prefer not to take chances at all if I can help it.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

Odd that the reporter doesn't mention that Harold Curtis owns the honey store mentioned in the article. Curtis honey in Labelle, you can find it in google search. 

Here's another story similar yet different. I found it when I was trying to find the story this news station did on "killer bees" which I did not find, though they trailered it on the 6th and 7th, to run on the 6pm news but I was on my way to work. 

http://www.winknews.com/Local-Flori...rom-citrus-groves-to-urban-areas#.UoGVASAo7IU


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

bevy's honeybees said:


> I found it when I was trying to find the story this news station did on "killer bees" which I did not find,


Might that have been this?
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...l-injure-another-in-florida-neighborhood?lite


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Colino said:


> Hi Windfall:
> Our gardens are in 3 plots 30x40ft, 25x30ft and 25x25ft on an acre that we rent from our neighbor which also has our water dugout on it and animal husbandry takes little area.


Ah, I thought the farmhouse was on 1/3 acre and you were producing all that food on the little area that was left. Your gardens are close to what we do and you are probably out producing us a little. Last year we got 74 qts of tomatoes and this year we got 4. Same number of plants. We do grow cabbage, broccoli, and brussel sprouts. Bugs don't eat much. After three seasons of trying to make sour krout I think we finally got success. We found being vigilant is the only way to stay one up on the cucumber beetles.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

To answer a few questions:

CraigsList. Hoophouse-$1000. Just had to take it apart and transport. We set it up on a higher side wall for more room. I already had the horse pannels.
It was 30 x 100, but I only had room for 30 x 50 here. 

I see these on Craigs list a couple times a year. If you want to depend on your garden produce, they are priceless. No heat, ends are totally open all year. Just keep the rain and harsh sun off plants.



















Composted horse manure, rabbit manure and peat moss After settling it was only about a foot thick.




























Ocean caught Halibut, home grown winter squash, summer squash, tomatoes and Minnesota wild rice..just a touch of Jalapeno ranch










Salmon, Ready for the pressure cooker


















Elk










tuna ready for freezer










Pot of homemade spaghetti sauce ready for pressure canning










And of COURSE sustainable living included Honeybees!


I have a thousand photos like this. Large or small scale, you should do what you can. It is worth it.

NO rearranged naturally ocurring amino acids (gmo) OR synthetic insecticides and antibiotics.'


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

So in the original post, the grower said his spraying frequency increased from three times to ten times per year. 
How long does the orange tree bloom for? How many of those so sprayings happen during the crop bloom?


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Lauri said:


> You need to keep this guy around for swarm catching!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

He does go the extra mile for me doesn't he?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Edymnion said:


> And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why we as a country need to stop listening to the "GMO is the evil boogieman thats going to shoot your wife and rape your dog!" nonsense and accept that it is our best hope of solving these kinds of problems.


How about orange growers are expected to accept they cannot always grow oranges just as beekeepers have been expected to accept they cannot keep bees alive. Why is their product more important to protect than ours?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> . Why is their product more important to protect than ours?


Like it or not....one simple answer is


AmericasBeekeeper said:


> LOPEZ: Florida is the nation's largest citrus producer, worth at least $9 billion annually.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

D Coates said:


> Marijuana and Hemp are two related but distinctly different plants grown for different purposes. Try entering the US with both and see what happens. GMO's scaring Big AG?... uh, check the bong water. GMO's are made by Big Ag.


Apologies for straying off topic some more, but felt I had to answer this one.

1) Marijuana and Hemp are not two different plants. They are the same plant, Cannabis. While different strains have been selectively bred for increased THC content and some have been bred to decrease it's content (in order to make it more palatable to the various narcotics laws when trying to grow it for hemp production), they are still the same plant in the same way a Cherry Tomato and a Beefsteak Tomato are both tomato plants.

2) Yes, Big Ag is afraid of GMO's. You are confusing one company with the industry as a whole. Monsanto is not the end all be all deciding factor in commercial agriculture. A good example was a couple years ago there was a protest in Washington over "Franken-fish", GMO salmon. When the funding for the rally was traced back, it was found to have come from the Alaskan fishing companies, who were afraid that the GMO fish (which were modified to grow much faster than their wild counterparts, which would make farm raising them viable) would cut into their wild fishing profits. Big agriculture as a whole is afraid of GMO because they are trying to protect their vested interests in non-GMO (and to avoid having to pay anything extra to Monsanto, which has some downright horrible business ethics, but that has nothing to do with GMO as a concept). They don't want cheap and plentiful crops because they make more money off the old fashioned kind. Rather the same way diamonds are not rare, DeBeer's simply buys everything they can find and locks it away then only allows out a tiny trickle while throwing out all kinds of propaganda about how special a diamond is. If they put their entire supply on the market at the same time we'd be seeing diamond rings in supermarket quarter vending machines next to the bouncy balls.

The world essentially runs on propaganda, not facts.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Edymnion said:


> The world essentially runs on propaganda, not facts.


Ain't that the truth


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Good Morning Acebird:
I usually plant 30 tomato plants and they produce hundreds of pounds of tomatoes(estimate). 80 quarts is what we can and we make our version of V8 juice which uses a large amount. Also we donate lots to the food bank,while friends and family take the rest. I also sometimes lose a bunch to frost and the pigs and chickens get their share. I forgot to mention that we also grow spaghetti squash, zucchini ,pumpkins, beets, swiss chard, cucumbers and corn. The vine crops are heavy producers so we keep 120 spaghetti squash in storage, the pumpkins go for jack o lanterns and the zucchini we consume as it comes with any excess being fed to the animals. Zucchini is such a big producer I plant 4 plants for animal feed and the other 6 produce so much that by summers end if family and friends see us coming with something green they run the other way.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Edymnion said:


> Marijuana and Hemp are not two different plants. They are the same plant, Cannabis.


I'm sorry I misspoke. I meant variety.

"Industrial hemp is technically from the same species of plant that psychoactive marijuana comes from. However, it is from a different variety, or subspecies that contains many important differences."

http://hempethics.weebly.com/industrial-hemp-vs-cannabis.html


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

I talked to an orange grove owner last spring, and he does not need bees for pollination. His trees are self-pollinating. I didn't think to ask what kinds of oranges.

That's in reply to Ian's post #27.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

beemandan said:


> Might that have been this?
> http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...l-injure-another-in-florida-neighborhood?lite


Thanks, but no. The trailer I saw (is that what it's called, when they give a short segment of a story that will air on 6:00 news) that was titled "killer bees" and had a local beekeeper/remover saying that 90% of the ferals he deals with are africanized. My experience, 90% are NOT. Maybe he doesn't smell good and is making the bees angry.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Lauri said:


> He does go the extra mile for me doesn't he?


Boys and their toys. You sure would think twice about renting one of those things just for a swarm, wouldn't you?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Lauri said:


> "Not an OSHA approved technique. Do not try this at home."


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> Why is their product more important to protect than ours?


R u kidding. Just about everything is more important than bees, beekeeping, and beekeepers. Go to the Unemployment Compensation Office and try to find "Beekeeper" listed. You'd have to file under "Poultry" or "Forest Products".


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

beemandan said:


> Like it or not....one simple answer is


And the bees are worth what? If it is just a numbers game then get more bees their until it is our money they worry about. I don't think it is about money. I think it is about beekeepers that continually say it's okay if we sustain the losses that are rightfully yours. Their fruit dies or bees die. Why is the death of a bee more acceptable less harmful to the economy or so readily accepted? If they are put out of business because their fruit cannot survive. I guess they should have become beekeepers.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> I don't think it is about money.


Welcome to Earth.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

D Coates said:


> I'm sorry I misspoke. I meant variety.


Oh, I know. Its just a pet peeve of mine, I don't like intellectual dishonesty when trying to prove a point (which means I pretty much stay away from all internet arguments). The only way to form a valid opinion is through intellectual honesty and taking a fair look at all sides of a situation, both the good and the bad, and weighing them against each other and the other options.

Thats also why I like being a political Independent. I get to point out how both sides are fudging things in their own favor.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Daniel Y said:


> And the bees are worth what? If it is just a numbers game then get more bees their until it is our money they worry about. I don't think it is about money. I think it is about beekeepers that continually say it's okay if we sustain the losses that are rightfully yours. Their fruit dies or bees die. Why is the death of a bee more acceptable less harmful to the economy or so readily accepted? If they are put out of business because their fruit cannot survive. I guess they should have become beekeepers.


A beekeeper chooses to move bee hives within flying distance of a citrus grove. A landowner decides to plant citrus trees which cannot be moved. The investment and income potential are such that most choose to do what is necessay to keep the grove productive. When beekeepers start losing enough bees they will stop moving bees to citrus.

Tom


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Not directly bee related but ties into this thread. High tunnels are inexpensive and can really extend the growing season early and late. Here is a good place to start getting info: http://hightunnels.org/

I have seen growers build the frames out of 2" pvc pipe.

Tom


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Edymnion said:


> 2) Yes, Big Ag is afraid of GMO's. You are confusing one company with the industry as a whole. Monsanto is not the end all be all deciding factor in commercial agriculture. A good example was a couple years ago there was a protest in Washington over "Franken-fish", GMO salmon. When the funding for the rally was traced back, it was found to have come from the Alaskan fishing companies, who were afraid that the GMO fish (which were modified to grow much faster than their wild counterparts, which would make farm raising them viable) would cut into their wild fishing profits. Big agriculture as a whole is afraid of GMO because they are trying to protect their vested interests in non-GMO.


This is incorrect. The problem with the GMO salmon is not that they are cheaper. When they escape the nets where they are being raised, which is inevitable, they can interbreed with wild salmon and genetically degrade the wild salmon, potentially leading to unforeseen negative consequences. There's no free lunch. High growth rates mean that some other aspects of the salmon life cycle is thereby affected. If these high growth rates were of benefit to the wild species, they would have evolved them naturally. Since they did not, thoughtful people might wonder why. Even non GMO salmon farms are problematic-- pollution, disease, consumption of ocean resoiurces, etc.

http://www.seaweb.org/resources/briefings/salmonfarm.php

Finally, Alaskan fishermen are hardly "BIg Ag." They're not agriculture at all.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

TWall said:


> A beekeeper chooses to move bee hives within flying distance of a citrus grove. A landowner decides to plant citrus trees which cannot be moved. The investment and income potential are such that most choose to do what is necessay to keep the grove productive. When beekeepers start losing enough bees they will stop moving bees to citrus.
> 
> Tom


I don't really agree with this assertion. The citrus grower decides to plant his orchard in the vicinity of beekeepers in the same respect as a beekeeper decides to set up his hives in the vicinity of orchards. Nobody can choose their lands according to everything being done in a 3 mile radius.

I do not think this is an issue of blossom-season citrus orchard, where migratory hives can come set up for the pollination, but of overall cultural practices outside of the blooming season. I'm not a citrus expert, but I'm assuming they wouldn't spray stuff that kills bees during the bloom, 'cause they'd jeopardize their own pollination (and it's probably illegal, in most places).

Nor do I agree with the orchard's immovable argument. Greening has been around since 1998, and many citrus orchards have been renewed, and continue to be renewed, despite this disease. A situation much akin to apples over here. Every time trees die, or a parcel needs to be removed, is effectively an opportunity to move on to something else, be it more resistant varieties or quite simply another production. If they continue replanting citrus, despite this "disastrous" "new" disease, it is because there is economic incentive to do so. It pays off anyways. And part of this is because many of the costs (pesticide runoff, environmental impacts, and bee die offs) are externalized: they simply transfer these costs to other people. Yes, the farmers need to make a living, and to do that, they need to keep their land productive. But they are in no way forced to continue replanting citrus trees on their land. I do not think it in any way unreasonable to believe that, if they choose to renew their citrus orchards despite all of the problems associated with such an act, they should be held responsible for the consequences of their acts.

Many people in agriculture often speak of doom and gloom about their industry, when the core of the problem is their unwillingness to adapt. Many farmers have done the same thing all of their lives, and their fathers before them, and they are terrified of change. But change is inevitable, and adaptation is necessary. Trying to put it off usually just makes adaptation harder, not easier. Fatalists are almost always wrong.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> This is incorrect. The problem with the GMO salmon is not that they are cheaper. When they escape the nets where they are being raised, which is inevitable, they can interbreed with wild salmon and genetically degrade the wild salmon, potentially leading to unforeseen negative consequences. There's no free lunch. High growth rates mean that some other aspects of the salmon life cycle is thereby affected. If these high growth rates were of benefit to the wild species, they would have evolved them naturally. Since they did not, thoughtful people might wonder why. Even non GMO salmon farms are problematic-- pollution, disease, consumption of ocean resoiurces, etc.
> 
> http://www.seaweb.org/resources/briefings/salmonfarm.php
> 
> Finally, Alaskan fishermen are hardly "BIg Ag." They're not agriculture at all.


Indeed... If those GMO fish were bred inland, far from where they could escape into the wild, this would not be such an issue. But usually, they are not, they are farmed out at sea. One doesn't have to be a genius to figure out that such salmon running free would cause quite a change in the ecosystems, even if there's no way to really predict the exact outcome of such a scenario.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I bet grove owners are like beekeepers. He ones I've talked to have an opinion on the industry but more importantly a plan for their operation. Stay ahead of losses produce what the market pays the best for etc. Some tear out entire groves that don't have big greening issues to plant a variety that is in higher demand. I'm sure that some consistently produce a profitable crop and aren't in invited to appear in the news stories. 

http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20130513/BIZ/305139943/1031/BIZ

....and in other news beekeepers all over the country are gearing up to send truck load after truck load of hives to pollination and honey production just like every other year. I bet many of them make good money and have a good quality of life. I wish someone would stick a camera in there face.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Dominic said:


> I don't really agree with this assertion. The citrus grower decides to plant his orchard in the vicinity of beekeepers in the same respect as a beekeeper decides to set up his hives in the vicinity of orchards. Nobody can choose their lands according to everything being done in a 3 mile radius.


Why would a landowner/farmer know about hives within three miles of his land? Why would that impact his decision making process on how they choose to use his land? 

The problem is the beekeepers'. Beekeepers are dependant on utilizing nectar sources on land they don't own or control. The fact that you keep bees does not give you the right to tell someone else how they can use their land.

The fact that a farmer continues to plant a crop despite increasing pest problems does give beekeepers the right to tell them they shouldn't. Or, they shouldn't be able to use leagal means to protect their crop. 

Tom


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Those gmo salmon are sterile and would be raised in inland man built holding ponds. I believe they're all female as well. For the citrus issue, this was mainly brought on by a few people who were affected, not to say they were wrong. I personally think the door swings both ways but as a beekeeper you had to see this coming when the greening started taking off.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Research published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences found that the release of just 60 genetically engineered fish into a wild population of 60,000 could lead to the extinction of the wild population in less than 40 generations.v There is still considerable debate about whether this "Trojan gene effect" would occur if AquaBounty's genetically engineered salmon escape. But the company's data, and FDA's conclusions based on analysis of that information, indicate that up to 5 percent of the eggs may not be sterile.vi

http://www.oceanconservancy.org/our-work/aquaculture/aquaculture-genetically.html


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