# no mite treatment at all



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have about fifty hives in three locations on natural or small cell. In two of those locations I use nothing at all. In one of those, I have been using Oxalic acid in most of the hives in order to monitor the success of the natural cell size and in order to have a clean bill of health to ship queens without any apistan strips etc.

At the end of a year of not treating there are an average of about 100 Varroa mites per hive. The following spring I (and a state inspector) can find no mites in the hives.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I have 6 colonies in each of two locations (12 total) 18 miles apart. I've been keeping bees here in Tucson for going on 9 years and I have never used any treatments of any kind, ever, no chemicals, no antibiotics, no essential oils, no FGMO, no acids, I haven't even fed them since 2000. I haven't ever requeened any until just this year. I have managed to get some small-cell into many of them.


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## Matthias Smith (Apr 4, 2004)

I have 5 hives.I have not treated for anything the two and a half years I've been into bees. The guy who I got them from treated for foulbrood(which he didn't have). They are all on normal cell. I bought some drone cell for mites but they didn't seem to need it so I just use it in my honey supers. I use queens that are a cross between buckfast and Italians and maybe some Russian.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Michael Writes:



> have been using Oxalic acid in most of the hives in order to monitor the success of the natural cell size and in order to have a clean bill of health to ship queens without any apistan strips etc.


Mike,
Unless there are other rules I am un aware of.
Nebraska bee law does not require you to use these contaminates to ,,,have a clean bill of health,,,. I dont see where that is written. 

http://www.agr.state.ne.us/regulate/bpi/ent/apreg.htm 

In section 002.02 of the Nebraska Apiary Act. "An apiary is apparently free of Varroa mites" if: 

002.02A. The owner or person in charge of the apiary has placed an EPA approved acaricide in the colonies to control any Varroa mites present prior to the Department's inspection. 

OR:

002.02B. Ether roll or alcohol shake methods done by the Department indicate Varroa mites are not present in the apiary. 

So in (A) you could be infested with varroa and still get a clean bill of health. Or in (B) you could prove that there are no varroa and get a clean bill of health. 

So by stating that you are using Oxalic acid in order to monitor mite levels is admitting that you are using Oxalic acid as a control, because each time you monitor, you are IN FACT applying a acaricide and artificially controlling and killing mites. And the applying of the acid on other colonies is not needed, as section 002.02B allows an alternative. And there are organic ways that you could use also.

I hope now you can eliminate the use of these chemicals in your bees, and point out section 002.02B to your inspector next time they visit..


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Guest naturebee has a point MB, and I understand the reason behind it and I know 1 treatment doesn't do a lot with mite control but even 1 application of oxalic or anything is a control measure, I can see a sugar roll or a ether roll with 300 bee's would be considered a measurement control without treating a hive but im still interested in seeing how many people do nothing with there hives? I even believe there are some that dont even take a mite count anymore, I havent taking a count on BB but have looked through some capped drone brood when i was removing supers.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Unless there are other rules I am un aware of.
Nebraska bee law does not require you to use these contaminates to ,,,have a clean bill of health,,,. I dont see where that is written. 

If I was shipping bees to somewhere in Nebraska, yes. But I ship queens to many states. Many have different laws.

>So by stating that you are using Oxalic acid in order to monitor mite levels is admitting that you are using Oxalic acid as a control, because each time you monitor, you are IN FACT applying a acaricide and artificially controlling and killing mites.

In one location, yes.

>And the applying of the acid on other colonies is not needed, as section 002.02B allows an alternative. And there are organic ways that you could use also.

I have only used it in one of the three locations which is the queen yard. I may skip it this year and see how it goes, but I have been trying to make sure I don't have any hassle shipping without Apistan.

As I said, I'm not shipping bees to Nebraska.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

TWT,
I've been zero treatments, and not a single application since 2001, and no drone comb removal, and on small cell for 5 years. Been collecting ferals, and place high emphasis on promoting the highest feral genetics in my bees. Im averaging 10% loss, which is better than average for PA, but I generally will opt to take a chance wintering a colony that another beekeeper might be inclined to combine. I do have an occasional colony that succumbs to varroa, but so be it, the better genetics live on. I do not do mite counts, but will occasionally uncap some drone and worker brood to get a feel for the varroa level.

I have been inspected by the Chief Inspector for PA due to my permits I keep for queen and nuc sales. I have been given a clean bill of health, and the inspector commented that the varroa population was extremely low, and not at the levels he was seeing in other colonies at the time. 

I credit small cell, feral genetics, and the elimination of non ferals from my apiaries, and the elimination of the use of any contaminates, because I believe even mild substances harm the colony.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Mike,
Oxalic acid should not even be used for monitoring varroa, as it is harmful to bees. And artificial proping of genetics will wreak havoc on your breeding. 

I Just got an email form our chief inspector "vanEngelsdorp, Dennis". All they inspect for is an active case of AFB, and need to see that low levels of varroa are being controlled by what ever legal methods you choose. He stated that this is want most states require. 

Here is some of his letter:

We are happy to facilitate export by meeting the requirements other states may have. Generally, the requirements for our inspection are good for other states, and a copy of your certificate should suffice. (at least I do not no of any who would refuse this except perhaps Mississippi and Indiana who do not yet have small hive beetle so we would need to inspect your county or apiaries for shb).



> If I was shipping bees to somewhere in Nebraska, yes. But I ship queens to many states. Many have different laws.


Please provide one example of a state that requires the use of acaricides in a colony? Of even an example of a law from another state, that your operation or your states inspection requirements do not already meet? 

I dont believe that one can be forced to use these acaricides, or even that it is a legitimate excuse to do so.


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## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

Ted-
I've used nothing in my one hive this being it's second full summer in my "care". It was a feral swarm(as are all my bees).
I plan on continuing to use nothing on any of my colonies.
I dont know much, but i'm thinking that this is the year where i might get an unpleasant surprise. As i'm beginning to understand, the first year or two are usually uneventful, then in the fall into winter after that is when the mites will make their move. 
I have heard recently that now is the time to be thinking about which measures one will be using this fall to combat the mites, so i'm beginning to think about what to look for. I've not seen a mite nor what they can do to a colony, so i've got some research to do.
This is the best place for me to start-new post though.
jim


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## Curry (Sep 22, 2003)

I don't use any controls other than race (russian) and screen bottom boards. I use Pierco frames, which I suppose are at 5.2 mm, but at least that keeps them somewhat smaller than what bees would make on their own.

I've not had any varroa loss in the last five years to speak of ( a few here and there maybe). My method is good enough for me- kills off any weak genes and keeps the strong ones.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Please provide one example of a state that requires the use of acaricides in a colony? Of even an example of a law from another state, that your operation or your states inspection requirements do not already meet? 

I have attempted to find copies of the laws in all 50 states. I have not found it an easy undertaking. Only a few seem to be readily available on the internet. I have heard other bee breeders refer to a requirement by some states to put apistan strips in if there are ANY mites. I have NOT been able to confirm or disprove that requirement. I wish I could.

Considering the low numbers on all the yards (including those not treated) and that a lot of those mites would have died over the winter anyway, I think it may be uneccessary to treat even the yard I mate and ship from at all and I still might get NO mites found by the inspector in the spring. I'm thinking I will try it this year. The legalities still worry me, although logically it seems silly that anyone would be concerned about Varroa spreading.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

> I even believe there are some that dont even take a mite count anymore, I havent taking a count on BB but have looked through some capped drone brood when i was removing supers.


I've never taken a _Varroa_ count. I have observed _Varroa_ on bees, and I've opened drone brood and seen _Varroa_ on drone larvae and pupae. If I ever started losing colonies I might begin to take _Varroa_ counts to see if it might possibly be caused by _Varroa_. Since _Varroa_ are fairly easy to see, especially on drone brood, I haven't really been too concerned about how many there are at any given time. Of course, if I start to see some on nearly every bee, and even more on the drone brood I examine, I might become a little more worried.

I have seen them regularly on workers and nearly every time I've examined drone brood, but on my last few inspections I couldn't find any at all. I am pleased but a bit mystified.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Naturebee please would you explain why is OA harmful to bees. Where did you get this information? 
OA is a natural ingredient from honey, how can it be danger to bees? After the evaporation of a small amount of OA not even a lab can tell whether the acid is from the treatment or from flowers.

>>Mike,
Oxalic acid should not even be used for monitoring Varroa, as it is harmful to bees. And artificial proping of genetics will wreak havoc on your breeding.<<


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

> Naturebee please would you explain why is OA harmful to bees. Where did you get this information? OA is a natural ingredient from honey, how can it be danger to bees?


Formic acid is also natural in honey, but was found to be harmful to bees.

OA is a danger because it is applied at levels not naturally found in honey. For example, the oxalic acid is naturally found in spinach, but about 10 pounds of spinach can kill you. Inhalation of mist or vapor may cause irritation and burns to mucous membranes of the respiratory tract, so imagine what it can do to the honeybee larvae with no protective skin.



> After the evaporation of a small amount of OA not even a lab can tell whether the acid is from the treatment or from flowers.


Not talking about residues in honey here, its at the time of application is when the bees are harmed. Penn State I believe reported that OA will kill larvae up to 8 days old, I will email and verify this for you. It is very difficult to find information on the dangers of OA to honeybees, because in general, most of the research is being done by those with a vested interest in promoting the product.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

> It is very difficult to find information on the dangers of OA to honeybees, because in general, most of the research is being done by those with a vested interest in promoting the product.


Don't go there.....









That stuff has been said over and over and over and over and over and over. The greedy chemical companies who stand to make millions putting poisons into our hives, etc.  

It may be difficult to find information on the dangers of OA to honeybees, because in general, while I'd agree it likely does have some detrimental effect, it *seems* to be more benign than say formic acid.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> most of the research is being done by those 
> with a vested interest in promoting the product.

Dick doesn't want you to "go there", but I'd like
you to either name names and provide specifics,
or apologize to the many researchers in Europe,
Canada, and the USA who have worked to evaluate OA.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

> Don't go there.....That stuff has been said over and over and over and over and over and over. The greedy chemical companies who stand to make millions putting poisons into our hives, etc.


Dick,
Its not that simple! I'm NOT referring to the greedy chemical companies here. It can be anyone with a vested interest.

Many doing research on OA are investigating the affects of OA on mites, and do not place an equal emphasis on studying its effects on bees or other dangers. This failure is a repeat of the mite strip fiasco, where Apistan and other dangerous pesticides were approved in spite of knowing the dangers. 

I am also referring to a few on this list who are willing to hold back truths, lie and play the game and provide the politically correct answer, in spite of knowing the dangers involved. And some mentors are glad to accommodate this by providing the politically correct quick fix answers or squirt and see approach depending on which way the wind is blowing, without consideration for the beekeeper of the harmful effects on the honeybees. This is an example of vested interest influenced by Ego. 

Take PA DOAs recommended pesticide strips in the 90s knowing that traces will contaminate honey, and build residues. And during the crash of 95 they even advised a use that was not on the labeled instructions to satisfy consumer demands. This mistake was due to their vested interest in assigning priority to providing a solution, rather that considering the dangers involved. And we paid the price for this.

This year, PA DOA is backtracking and do not recommend the use of pesticides in colonies due the compounding effects on colony mortality caused by the mistakes of the past. And even now go as far as saying that you must avoid them. 



> It may be difficult to find information on the dangers of OA to honeybees, because in general, while I'd agree it likely does have some detrimental effect, it *seems* to be more benign than say formic acid.


Yes, and formic acid seems more benign that sulfuric acid.









And organic is more benign that OA!









Oh, I can find plenty of info on the dangers of OA, but dangers concerning honeybees it is difficult to find due to the limited research being done in this area,,,, We are not talking about other domesticated farm animals here which get allot more money spent on research. But anyone with an ounce of common sense might want to consider that if OA burns you, it can burn a bee. 

*Penn state has reported oxalic acid harming larva in the post capping stage. 

*Cell death in honeybee larvae is associated with oxalic and formic acid.


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## Lori McAllister (Sep 8, 2004)

The 3 hives I started out with I bought from a man that did not treat his bees with anything. He had been keeping bees for 25 years and did not have trouble with mites and other things. I have 5 hives now all on natural foundation. They are very strong and the hardest working bees! I don't plan to treat them with anything!


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Although I don't doubt the idea that the organic acids likely harm brood. In fact research says it does, espically when over applying the particular acid. Get on Scholar Google and read about the Organic acids all day. The idea that IS unrealistic, however is that beekeepers, in general, can just drop the mite treatments and be happy, organic beekeepers. Perhaps this isn't what is suggested but it sounds like it is. Its a long road to good genitics. Mite resistant queens are localized. I don't see how a mite resistant queen in say Arizona is going to do well here in TN since our climate is completely different. People's experience reflect this. Also, we can't just go out and collect ferals here. I've spent a good amount of my life exploring the woods. I've found wasp nests, hornets, yellow jackets, bumblebees, carpenter bees, and just about any other colony of insect you could find here. What I have never found was a feral honeybee colony. They just aren't here in any significant number. I cought one in west knoxville, but this was unlikely a colony developed from feral bees. So people here are working on breeding and buying "mite resistant queens" just like everywhere else. However, starting colonies and leting them die off untill you finally get one to survive is not realistic due to money and time issues.
Now small cell is a posibility I'll work on and I'll likely try sucrocide next year, when I'm better prepared to do mite counts. I'll be spraying down, I'm not going to pull every frame and spray. Even this hobbiest dosen't want to take the time to do that. The organic acids are a solution. They are not one I want to rely on by any means, but the research shows they are much safer than the neurotoxins which no one needs to use any more. Research shows the organic acids are very effective at killing mites, but yes they are toxic at the levels we use them. Their residue however should remain at levels we already can eat in foods. I'm working towards organic beekeeping and organic foods in other areas. When one does this, I believe it best to keep the scope of pollution in our world in mind. If everyting I put in my mouth is organic, that would be great. But then, I get in my car and drive to work huffing carbon monoxide and disel fumes the whole way. Our air here is awful, we can't eat many fish living in our drinking waters because they are full of carcinagentics. If you kill a deer to eat over by Oak Ridge, you have to get it tested for radiation before you take it home. Its a long road to organic/sustainable living AND beekeeping. I see the organic acids (Formic, Oxalic, Thymol) as a good way for small and bigtime beekeepers to get away from the neurotoxins starting now. With time and research and all important funding, hopefully individuals and researchers can develop mite resistant queens that do well in each particular climate, and/or find scalable non-toxic mite treatments, and IPM strategies. 

Naturebee, congradualations are your sucess at organic beekeeping, with time I hope to make it there too.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

@naturebee

http://www.apis.admin.ch/host/varroa/ca3686.htm 
http://www.apis.admin.ch/host/doc/pdfvarroa/Schlussbericht.pdf

Please study the page and dont tell me OA is danger to honeybees. There are several more on the Internet from Switzerland, Finland, Germany and so on.

If you still believe OA is danger to brood, bees or queens its up to you, hold it for yourself and dont confuse beginners, your wasting space on this forum with your comments.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

I went back and reread my collection of Oxalic research and couldn't find where overdosing kills bees. I must have confused that with other organic acids. I found only small increases in winter loss that were due to undertermined reasons, unknown connection to Oxalic.
Common sense would lead to believe that it harms bees, but who knows. If its the low PH that kills the mites, perhaps the bees tolerate the low PH while the mites don't, and maybe something else than PH with the Formic and Thymol that can kill bees? I don't know just hypothesizing. Has anyone killed bees by overdosing Oxalic? If so than it is toxic to bees at a high enough concentration, just like it is toxic to us.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

We have killed brood with both OA, thymol & formic in hot weather.
Most recommend OA be only used in the broodless period.
Only on this forum have I seen OA recommended for periods of brood rearing and hot weather.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Exceptional post MichaelW. Nothing I could add would make it any more to the point and more clear! Thanks.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Michael,
Try traping bees in the woods, ferals are there, and I have had great success this year doing just that. Best Wishes,

Jim, 
I named the Pa DOA in the Apistan mistake! 

Axtmann,
Please read Bob Harrisons letter! 

And Axtmann,,,, If you still believe OA is safe to brood, bees or queens its up to you, hold it for yourself and dont confuse beginners, your wasting space on this forum with your comments.









Rob,
Excellent post! Thats good honest information you have provided! This is an example of truth in posting and takes allot of guts to go against the grain if need be. This is good info in that it gives new bees a view of the dangers of OA, and the importance of reading the labeled instructions. 
Best Wishes


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## PaulR (May 24, 2005)

I've kept bees going on three years. No chemical treatments for varroa. All comb is drawn Plasticell. Though I've done counts and seen varroa on my bees, I've yet to lose a colony. I now have 8 colonies. No chemicals used on any. They are all very strong and healthy. I've have one Kona Queen Italian and the rest are Wilbanks Italian. I'm very happy being chemical free.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Greeting PaulR . . .

Do you use SBBs?

What are you present mite counts?

thanx,
Dave W


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>We have killed brood with both OA, thymol & formic in hot weather.
Most recommend OA be only used in the broodless period.
Only on this forum have I seen OA recommended for periods of brood rearing and hot weather.

Bob, I can't help but wonder if there isn't confusion caused by not stating the type of application of OA.

Marion Ellis at our club meeting last spring stated that his experiments MAY have ill effected the brood, but he was using the trickle method. He bought a crack pipe from me that I had attached to a plexi top cover to run some experiments this year with vaporizing.

With there being three types of OA application, I think we should always state the type of application that we are using just to make sure the readers know the differance.

I have only used the vapor method, and have used it with brood in the hive. I have also wondered if it was hurting the brood. I can see that it could damage the eggs, but think that a larva "swimming" in royal jelly or food could be protected to some degree. But, if losing eight days of brood production to rid a hive of all varroa, well, that could be a good trade off depending on the time of year.

If the analogie of bees breathing OA is bad for them because it is bad for us, perhaps soapy water might be harmful to us as it kills bees.


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## PaulR (May 24, 2005)

The first year I did not use SBB. I had varroa mite counts below 60. I started using SBB last fall. All of my hives, two last year, came through winter with flying colors. I don't do varroa counts because it does appear to be a problem. However, I have checked drone pupae and have not seen any varroa on the pupae. I attribute this to good management and the inherent hygienic traits of my bees. I've only seen two dozen or so SHB in my 8 hives over the course of this year.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>I attribute this to good management . . .

Sure wish you would share your secrets


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bill,
The problem with the OA is also how much control are you getting. What percent?

Medhat Naser has done quite a bit of OA research.
In the broodless period he says OA is very effective. 

Bill R. (mitegone) has said similar things about formic acid. If the dose is not correct control is not at a level to provide a high percent control. 

When the dose is correct with formic acid according to Bill R. you should have a small amount of brood kill. Bill suggests trial testing 6 hives to determine the amount (grams) of formic acid to use.

People on lists over simplfy using OA & formic. Yes both will kill some varroa (as will nicotine and citrus leaves) but what per cent control are you getting.

The strips Apistan & checkmite gave an honest 98% varroa kill at the start. Both are worthless in my area. In the early days of varroa the bee supply house tossed out the strips and YES they both (without a doubt) completely controlled the varroa mite.

Now we enter a new era in beekeeping. All the methods talked about on this list depend on many factors to work. Such as temp, sealed brood, dosage and at times humidity.

None in my opinion will save a hive showing signs of PMS! 

Test! Test! Test! Keep a watch on your varroa loads.

August is the time to treat for varroa and not the broodless period of November in Missouri if you have a high infestation in August. Eight weeks is simply to long a time for out of control varroa reproduction. Once a hive reaches a certain level of varroa infestation treating is a waste of time and money! Been there and done that! The hive will not rebound!

in my opinion many underestimate the varroa mite.

The varroa mite has caused more beekeepers to quit beekeeping than any other factor.

Any time varroa control drops below 90% virus problems start. PMS. 

One of the largest beekeepers in the world recently left beekeeping because of not being a cure for bee virus problems and no easy way to keep varroa control over the 90% level.

Having seen whole outfits devestated by varroa I only issue a warning to keep aware of varroa load in your hives.

Varroa & tracheal mites are silent killers for the uninformed beekeeper. The hive dies over winter so the beekeeper blames the winter weather!


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Medhat Naser has done quite a bit of OA research.
In the broodless period he says OA is very effective. 

Again, this is exactly what I meant. What kind of application was he using? Vapor, trickle, or misting?

I have gleaned that the effectivness of vapor is more effective than trickle, and trickle more effective than misting. We can't assertain the results given in any report not knowing what types of application is being studied.

My methodiology is not to provide a varroa free hive for the colony, but a level that they can cope with. Completely removing the load may reduce their ability to deal with the mite. (IMO)

My intention is after harvest, (very soon), do a 24 hur drop reading and vaporize (electric) any hive (3 mediums) with more than 30 mites with one treatment. That's 10 mites per medium brood. Knowing that there is still brood present, this should give me a good knock down without completely removing the mite load. Another test in November after the goldenrod flow will indicate what hives should need further treatment before winter sets in.


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## PaulR (May 24, 2005)

<One of the largest beekeepers in the world recently left beekeeping because of not being a cure for bee virus problems and no easy way to keep varroa control over the 90% level.

Who was this? What methodologies did they employ that didn't work? Is there a write-up about them somewhere? I would love to read about their operation.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

"What methodologies did they employ that didn't work"

If you Sir think the PMS virus problem is a myth then you are in for a rough road in future beekeeping!

I suppose in the future I will write the Bell Honey Co. story for the bee magazines. I have been asked.

I was his partner at the start. We bought outfits together and worked bees side by side. Beekeeping was both our projects in FFA and vocational Agriculture. Grew up a mile from each other. I consider Horace Bell a close and dear friend. One of the few people which never tried to cheat or lie to me!

Around at the end (if the story is over as the published rumor in the Florida Times Union in "98" of his retirement proved later to be false).

I am now running equipment with Bell Honey co. stamped on it. I tried to buy his hive tool and smoker last trip to Florida but he laughed and declined. If you are really retiring why would you need a hive tool & smoker I asked?

Bell Honey sold a reported 97,000 hives last year.

Bob Adee (Richards brother) told me while I was unloading a semi load of Adee honey (for a packer in Harrisonville, Missouri a couple months ago) Richard Adee never ran as many hives. So it would seem Horace Bell Honey now has the reccord for the most hives on the ground in the U.S. in a single year.

In the book "Following the Bloom" by Doug Whynott chapter 15-19 are devoted to Bell Honey Co.

Methodologies????? 

"What we don't know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd" Bob Harrison


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## PaulR (May 24, 2005)

Bob thanks. I had no idea. I've only heard rumors of PMS. Now I am waiting with bated breath on the story, perhaps beginning with the magazine article and then in book form.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Paul,
You might also find the following press release of interest as your state borders Florida..

http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/press/2005/07192005.html


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Some years back ABJ ran an article (from memory) about some hives in South America .Wilbanks and Taber stock.These hives were carrying huge loads of varroa with no sign of any problems.They concluded that it was because these hives werent harboring viruses.Once viruses enter the picture it takes much less varroa to trigger it.Theres not much sadder sight than whole yards full of weak and dying hives full of dead brood.After that happens,you tend to take varroa MUCH more seriously.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>I've only heard rumors of PMS. 

It's sometimes confused with foulbrood by inexperienced beekeepers.


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## franc (Jan 7, 2003)

Ive used O/A and Ive never had a high brood die off or has it affected or slowed down the queens production that I can tell.I use the crack pipe vapor method.Ive treated hives that Ive grafted out of latter and couldn't see any problem with the larvae making good queens. Ive never seen any of the results your talking about.I've had better results using O/A then apistan and for a fraction of the cost.Yeah Ive had bees attack the pipe end and end up getting burned or over dosing but they are actually right on the pipe when Im treating.I think the reason for treating hives with O/A during colder weather is 1) The bees are clustered together and all together not with field bees flying all over the place. 2)Theres alot less fanning during cold weather on a warm or hot day unless the hives is sealed up its almost impossible to get complete coverage because the bees fan like theres not tomorrow. 3) You don't need repeat treatments because your exposing all the mites to the O/A because theres no brood so no mites in the cells. 4) Its after the supers have been taken off and honey collected. From what I understand the mite starves to death the O/A disablies their feeding tube and they just live until they weaken and die.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

You shouldn't see any dead brood if you follow your four steps above.

Larva are very sensitive to strong doses of both OA & formic acid. Not rocket science. Why wouldn't they be franc?

How do you keep from overdosing with the crack pipe?

What level of control do you get with the crack pipe. Ever checked? What was your 24 hour drop before treatment? After treatment?

Ever inhale a big dose of OA fumes from the pipe?


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Bob Harrison

>>Larva are very sensitive to strong doses of both OA & formic acid.

Have you ever treated with OA, trickling, spraying or evaporation? 

>>How do you keep from overdosing with the crack pipe?

Do you know how to handle a so-called crack pipe? When preparing a meal are you mixing everything together or do you follow some instructions (recipe)?

>>What level of control do you get with the crack pipe?

I used a crack pipe and the best result during brood free time was 80+ %. Found some mites (2-7 after opening approx 100 cells) the following April in drone brood. NO colony with 0 mites.

Now I work with the electric vaporizer, one treatment without brood (swarm or winter treatment) approx 95+ %. After a second treatment the colony is almost mite free. 2003 and 2004 found first mites (0-3 after opening approx 250 cells) the following June in drone brood.
Some colonies with 0 mites.

>>What was your 24 hour drop before treatment? 

This is IMO totally unimportant. 

>>After treatment?

Thats important, I monitor the mite drop on paper under a screen.

>>Ever inhale a big dose of OA fumes from the pipe?

Beekeeper should use a mask or electric vaporizer with a long extension cord and stay away.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Ever inhale a big dose of OA fumes from the pipe?

Yep. That's why I like the electric model, I can stand way back up wind and flip the switch. The only time I can smell the vapor is when I pull the burner and reseal the hive, and by then it's a very weak smell.

The burner only holds about 1/2 teaspoon, enough for three mediums or two deeps. Overdosing is not likely unless you are treating just one medium.

Also the burner sublimates(?) the vapor into a finer particulate than can be achieved in a crack pipe. With the use of the electric burner, the switch is thrown for a set amount of time and the open pan can be easily seen when extracted from the hive for checking to see if all the crystal has melted in that time period.

posted November 21, 2004 05:10 PM 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My neighbor up at the farm, Prairie Girl, has been interested in keeping bees since she found a colony for me in a farmhouse that was being demolished last year. She ordered her first two packages this last spring and we have removed bees from other old farmhouses and I've taken her extra swarms as well.
She has been very diligent about treating with oxalic acid and counting mites. The following graph tells a very telling tale about the way oxalic kills mites, both in the rate drop by day and by the treatment frequency.

Even more can be assertained by understanding what kind of bees each colony has, where they come from, age of colony, and type of equipment she is using.

Hive 1 is a removal she did from a farmhouse. It is a two medium box configuration, started in July. They made their own queen in transfered comb that was later removed or moved up and is now only being used as honey stores.

Hive 2 is a package from B Weaver, All Americans in a four medium configuration.

Hive 3 is a package from B Weaver, All Americans in three medium configuration.

Hive 4 is a split from an abondoned hive, it went queenless and I later donated two swarms to strengthen. It is now three mediums and one deep.

Hive 5 is a swarm I gave her in a two medium configuration started last May.

Guess by looking at the numbers which hive has the drawn comb. The only anomolie is the last treatment and hive 3.

Of note; the second and third day had the highest drops, and the second and third treatments also had the highest drops.


Spacing did not transfer well, so I added periods to space the numbers for easier reading. Read the chart as Hive, #, and counts the following six days, and the total for that hive for the week. The numbers below are the total number of mites for that day. 

Pay no attention to the periods, they are for spacing only.

Sept. 26 
Hive 1 40 168 .35 23 .6 .6 278 
Hive 2 10 .60 .13 18 22 14 137 
Hive 3 50 136 .72 39 41 24 362 
Hive 4 50 .69 186 84 80 81 550 
Hive 5 57 .84 .15 17 .1 .3 177 

......207 517 321 181 150 128 1504 


Oct. 4 
Hive 1 .73 111 .65 .32 17 15 313 
Hive 2 168 172 108 .62 21 20 551 
Hive 3 210 188 118 .59 21 22 618 
Hive 4 125 151 .86 137 93 56 648 
Hive 5 100 .31 .31 ..9 .4 .2 177 

.......676 653 408 299 156 115 2307 


Oct.11 
Hive 1 .31 .37 .27 .10 ..3 11 119 
Hive 2 .80 260 112 .53 .23 20 548 
Hive 3 140 310 .76 .29 .21 14 590 
Hive 4 .60 192 246 178 140 93 909 
Hive 5 .29 .34 .20 ..6 ..4 .1 .94 

.......340 833 481 276 191 139 2260 


Oct.17 
Hive 1 .30 .35 ..8 ..4 .0 .1 .78 
Hive 2 116 175 .80 .43 26 .9 449 
Hive 3 .93 115 .67 .25 35 12 347 
Hive 4 143 268 183 173 92 31 890 
Hive 5 ..6 ..5 ..3 ..1 .0 .0 .15 

......388 598 341 246 153 53 1779 


NOV.14 
Hive 1 ..6 ..6 ..2 ..3 .0 .0 .17 
Hive 2 .30 112 .84 .28 18 20 292 
Hive 3 141 188 117 .68 26 .9 549 
Hive 4 .47 .91 157 106 38 24 463 
Hive 5 ..2 ..2 ..1 ..0 .1 .0 ..6 

........226 399 361 205 83 53 1327 


I tried to fix the spacing, I give up.

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000291#000000


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Axtmann,
I do research which always pisses off those which don't. How can you tell how well a treatment works if you do not know the varroa load before you start. Amateur!

Yes I have used and seen all methods in use.

Primative at best! Will drop some varroa.

Read carefully:
A 98% chemical strip will drop around 3,000 varroa *THE FIRST DAY* in August in our area. From the posted information by Bullseye OA method falls way short.

I assume you are a small beekeeper Axtmann as I would need fifty miles of extension cord to use a electric vaporisor on my yards. 

I am not saying OA is not a uaeful tool for beekeeping. Only trying to seperate the BS from the truth.

OA and formic in *strong* doses kills larva in summer weather! Been there and done that. Bill R. (mitegone) says the ideal situation with formic acid is to have the level so some larva is killed for highest varroa control. If no larva are killed your formic level is too low.

I believe the same might be true for OA (but only my opinion).

If OA was the only method available to me perhaps I would use in conjunction with IPM methods.

Formic and OA are more alike than not! Nasty stuff to work with and breathe!

OA only provided *enough* control in our research in the broodless period like I said earlier. OA did provide a decent control then (November) but we are treating *NOW* to save hives from varroa. 

November is too late. Hives over threshold then! All methods will NOT WORK!

OA did not provide enough control this time of year for us (and is a big hassle) to keep the hives going until November.

Antoher big waste of tome for us was fogging with mineral oil but that's another story.

I believe we have a far more serious varroa problem in the U.S.than Germany. Terry Brown (Brown's Bees Australia) was at my place for three days last month. Terry said only in the U.S. does he see as serious of a varroa problem.

Denis Anderson has Put an ID on many halotypes of varroa. We now know Varroa j. is not even a pest to the A. mellifera. Varroa d. is. Perhaps your varroa halotype is different than ours?

Sincerely,
Bob Harrison

"emailed from the U.S. varroa fighting front lines"


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>A 98% chemical strip will drop around 3,000 varroa *THE FIRST DAY* in August in our area.

Wow! I haven't seen those kind of numbers of Varroa since I regressed. I do remember seeing that many before regression.

From my experience with OA vapor on broodless hives, if you do two treatments in the fall there are virtually no mites left in the hive. I can't find any from natural drop, from sugar rolls, or from opening drone brood in the spring. The inspector from the Nebraska Department of Agriculture could not find any either.

And the OA only killed 100 mites or less per hive total over two treatments over two weeks. NOT 3000 on the first day.

>I assume you are a small beekeeper Axtmann as I would need fifty miles of extension cord to use a electric vaporisor on my yards. 

Most use a 12 volt battery, not a 120 volt extention cord.

>Formic and OA are more alike than not! Nasty stuff to work with and breathe!

But no worrying about the temps with OA. Since you're not relying on ambient temps to evaporate it it works in any temperature. I also have not heard of queen losses from OA nor have I experienced them. I have read about them with formic acid.

>"emailed from the U.S. varroa fighting front lines"

I'm really enjoying not having to fight them anymore.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

I agree a big difference exists between the world of hobby and the professional beekeeper.

Let me drop a semi load in next door and your hives get reinfested and see how well your OA and small cell fairs.

You walk a thin line at best.

keeping bees in remote areas on permanant locations is EASY!

For a real test drop your hives into an area of thousands of hives. See how well they handle varroa after being moved 4-5 thousand miles a year and loaded and unloaded 10-20 times.

Maybe I am on the wrong list but I have got my direct experience to share. Different though it may be from others. 

I make a living from bees. I can't afford to place my livlyhood on methods put forth by those which do not.

I do believe commercial beekeepers in Canada use OA but the time of year is different from what I have heard Allan Dick say. The broodless period has started.

Any way I have now only got over a hundred of those hives which are not varroa tolerant. The rest are! By this time next year my worries with varroa will be history. I can sit in the easy chair while you guys use and breathe those OA fumes. others wait for the next chemical coming off the presses.

Reinfestation does not seem to effect my varroa tolerant line.


I might suggest placing a *bee use only*label on the crack pipe for OA. Only concerned for your well being!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Let me drop a semi load in next door and your hives get reinfested and see how well your OA and small cell fairs.

I have no experience with those kinds of conditions (nor do I want to) and I have no doubt that it would be a lot of pressure and likley too much Varroa pressure for any stable system to handle.

>keeping bees in remote areas on permanant locations is EASY!

That is probably true.

>For a real test drop your hives into an area of thousands of hives. See how well they handle varroa after being moved 4-5 thousand miles a year and loaded and unloaded 10-20 times.

I'm sure the stress of the trip won't help, but I'm guessing most of the pressure is the thousands of hives that are acting as Varroa breeding farms.

>Maybe I am on the wrong list but I have got my direct experience to share. Different though it may be from others. 

I certainly did not mean to downplay the validity of what you have to share. I think this is the right list.

>Reinfestation does not seem to effect my varroa tolerant line.

Sounds like the right track.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well said! Hope the heat has finnaly broken for you! 

Off to pull another load of supers.
Race against time to get things done before the snow flies!


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## franc (Jan 7, 2003)

No its not Rocket science, Rob. Thats why it works.


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## heartbeat (Nov 18, 2004)

rob, do you still get 3000+ drop count in your tollerant line (and the bees tollerate that load) or do the bees kill/remove/supress the varoa and you get lower drop counts w/ the strips? also, how has resistance,if any, affected your drop counts? what brand of varoa control do you use?
thanks,
martin
as for the original question:
as a hobbiest (<50hives), i havent treated or done any counts for the past 12 years. however, as i am planning to expand and rely more on the income of these hives, i am also concidering treating with something, i am also pallitizing and will construct pallets w/ sbb.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

I have not used strips in my hives in four years.

I still get those kind of drops when checkmite is working and used in another beekeepers commercial yards. His hive loss last year was in the 80-90% range from varroa and PMS. He has no Russian or varroa tolerant hives.(or not very many yet)

Average varroa drops. 

Varroa tolerant hives run 0-3 mites in spring and 0-20 in fall (natural fall).

Russian/Russian run around 17-20 in fall and 3-5 in spring.

F1 Russians run 20-40 in fall. 3-10 in spring.

I am still running some Italians from Ray O. out of California which are not varroa tolerant and need treatment. The queens will be two years old next spring. I will test when the supers come off and treat the ones with a high varroa count with Api Life Var.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

While I realize that my hobbiest methods will not work in many commercial operations, I've been very sucessful using SMR/Russian bees (Glenn Apiaries), SBB, and breaking the brood cycle for about 10-14 days in both the Spring and Fall (queen caging, splitting). For the other hobby keepers out there....Try it, its fun and gives you an excuse to practice queen location. As for PMS, I don't think they know yet wether the mites are a vector (in which case mite levels are less critical) or wether mites exacerbate the viral diseases. Could be both I suppose. The USDA and Ag schools around the world are doing some really nice work on all of these issues. We owe them a debt of gratitude. Terramycin treatment helps greatly with PMS, and nobody is sure why. I suspect that foulbrood and PMS occur together, confounding the correct diagnosis of either.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sounds like you have really got your act together with your bees.

I had not heard that Terramycin would work for a virus or in fact any antibiotic would work. Will try and see. Being from the show-me state I have to see for myself if a method works.Thanks for the tip!

Norman Carrick & Brenda Ball (U.K.) have said antibiotics have not worked for PMS in their testing and also that a hive free of virus can handle high loads of varroa. Through another beekeeper we have sent many samples to the U.K. for virus testing and ID. 

PMS is often thought to be foulbrood by the hobby beekeeper but not by those dealing with large varroa problems. I have never seen foulbrood & PMS in the same hive at the same time but could happen in hives of those not keeping a close eye on their bees.

PMS occurs in most cases when a hive is over threshold for treatment. Huge varroa population. but was not the case in hives I went through the last two years in Florida. I saw PMS in hives with below threshold levels of varroa.

Being on the varroa front lines and doing varroa research I have more direct experience than most. Even many of our USDA-ARS researchers. Only a few deal directly with varroa & PMS issues. 

It amazes me when I wait in line at a meeting to speak with a researcher and they spend the time picking my mind. Commercial beekeepers when they have a problem most times call a fellow commercial beekeeper rather than the bee labs which is part of the problem and keeps the bee lab in the dark on many issues.

We do not have six weeeks to wait for a solution.

I also thank the bee labs both in the U.S. and around the world for their fine work. They should also be thankful each day I am not their boss!


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>Terramycin treatment helps greatly with PMS, and nobody is sure why.

As I recall Dewey Caron also mentioned that at a talk he gave a couple of years or so ago.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

With regard to the above statement about commercial beekeepers vs. researchers, I think that I have an answer. It seems like an increasing amount of bee extension and research money is diverted away from field research and diagnostics and into cell/molecular biology. I even know of one bee virus researcher who has never opened a hive in her life! Wheras you might be concerned primarily with "how much does it cost/will it work", most biologists are interested in advancing knowledge and getting more grant money (not necessarily in that order). If I had a problem with 1000 hives with PMS or even low production, the local fruit fly geneticist would not be my first resource either (this website might be).


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Terramycin and PMS. Does it help? 

This URL from MAAREC says it seems to:
www.ento.psu.edu/MAAREC/pdfs/Varroa_Mites_PMP1.pdf

Although we do not understand why, treating varroa-infested colonies with an antibiotic such as oxytetracycline (Terramycin) seems to help them survive and perform better. Antibiotics are effective in treating bacterial diseases, such as European foulbrood, but are unlikely to have a direct effect on the virus infections common with mite infestations. Even so, oxytetracycline treatments seem to offer some advantage to colonies with varroa infestations. 

This URL from Cornell says it doesnt:
http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/B_files/disease1.htm

Brood symptoms are highly variable, and are often difficult to distinguish from EFB and AFB; however, treatment with terramycin (TM) does not eliminate this condition.

I guess it just goes to show--dont believe everything read off the internet.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

PMS is not fully understood. The U.K. lab found three different virus in our PMS samples. I can't see (my opinion) Terra controlling virus but perhaps another form of problem is at work which we do not yet fully understand and the terra works for the problem. 

For years a hive with PMS was always on its death bed. Different now as I have been seeing hives with a medium varroa infestation with PMS but only in the last two years.

I never saw a Russian/Russian hive with PMS. I have seen Russian F1 hives with deformed drones and workers from varroa but still no PMS.

I guess now is the time to drop the PMS bombshell:

virus spores are similar to nosema spores using nosema as an example. Several of us believe that once a comb is contaminated with virus spores (hardy and a million can fit on the head of a pin)
then when the new swarm is hived on a PMS deadout then when varroa levels rise high the virus becomes active. Our research (although not published) supports our hypothesis.


Aspera (internet name) do I know you?
Check yes or no:
yes----
no----

"What we don't know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd" Bob Harrison


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>virus spores are similar to nosema spores using nosema as an example. Several of us believe that once a comb is contaminated with virus spores (hardy and a million can fit on the head of a pin)
then when the new swarm is hived on a PMS deadout then when varroa levels rise high the virus becomes active. Our research (although not published) supports our hypothesis.

Now that agrees with what Axtmann our friend from Germany says.I asked for some documentation on the virus being viable the next season in comb,but none was forthcoming.Since I (and I suppose most) just re-stock a varroa killed deadout the next spring(have done hundreds)I noticed exactly the same scenario.The dead brood is cleaned out by the new split,and only when varroa is allowed to build back up will the new brood become diseased.I assumed this was because the varroa and the bees themselves are carrying the virus-not the comb.So 
can anyone point me to research that shows the viability of viruses in dead brood from the previous season?
By the way,antibiotics was the first thing I tried for pms.I never saw anything encouraging from doing so.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>Several of us believe..
I think those are the magic words. Your 'bombshell' may have some validity or then again it might not. I hope people don't end up jumping to conclusions.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Although I have done many posts on the internet and written many articles for the bee magazines my interest is in helping commercial beekeeping.

We can get our honey from other places (over half is already) and the hobby beekeeper should always be able to buy a package (consider the tropical fish industry. When Starsky & Hutch (pet fish)are floating you simply buy others).

For every successful beekeeper there are at least ten that have tried and given up beekeeping for various reasons. 

When the commercial migratory beekeeper hangs up his/her hat our food supply is in trouble. A steady number of commercial migratory beekeepers have been leaving the industry since WW II .

A congressman(all would know the name) has contacted me wanting a person to educate commercial beekeepers on ways to be successful in todays fast pace beekeeping world. My name was given to him by three different commercial beekeepers. 

I am thinking about his offer of government funds to use and free rein over the project.but I am retired (although still on a commercial level).

Most commercial beekeepers are in beekeeping simply because (like me) beekeeping has been in the family for generations. 

The problem facing beekeepers today is simple. You can not keep bees on a large scale like MY Grandpa or the old masters did (although a few on the list seem to think so. perhaps on a small scale but will not work on a large scale). I keep quiet as I am on here to learn also but practices not based on sound beekeeping practice are sometimes put forth. 

Still reading Dick? 

The test on the hypothesis of virus reinfection in the next swarm installed is now in its second test. 1,000 PMS boxes set up as 500 hives. I hope I am wrong but glad another beekeeper is seeing the same thing even if he is in Germany.

I have dropped new information many times (which Dick knows from BEE-L) that produced a roar from the crowd. 

consider:

Give me one reason why virus spores would not live on in the deadout comb? Thats what spores do (nosema & foulbrood)


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

No, Rob, my given name is Hal and you don't know me, although I'm pleased to make your acquintance. As for the idea of tetracycline used for PMS, I would point out that PMS does not equal a viral infection, but rather a constellation of hive symptoms. "Shipping fever" is a virally/stress induced disease of cattle that is treated with tetracyclines. The reason for this (aside from the fact that it works) is that an animal weakened by a virus is highly susceptible to infection by bacteria that are not normally considered pathenogenic. Infectious disease is always caused by host/environment/pathogen interactions. I'm not saying that tetracylcines are a magic bullet for mites, but rather that they can be used to ameliorate some of the symtoms of PMS. Should they be used? Well, I don't know. That is a decision that may change based on the price of honey, residue issues and antibiotic resistance concerns. This pattern reoccurs again and agian in animal health industries. e.g. BVD of cattle: TGE, rotovirus and PRRS in pigs: many, many viral diseases of poultry.
I will reiterate that I am a small scale hobbiest, keeping bees for the love of bees. I'm just suggesting that tetracycline may be of benefit in PMS, not that it is wise or economical to use it. Are the researchers at Cornell wrong. No. Just be sure to carefully examine their experimental design and see how it compares to your apiary/colony conditions.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>Give me one reason why virus spores would not live on in the deadout comb? Thats what spores do (nosema & foulbrood)


Thats what I'm asking.If my assumptions are wrong,then a change in comb management will have to be looked at.I thought viruses had to have a live host to keep going.Is that wrong?


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Once again Bob, what you said may or may not be true. And once again, lets not everyone jump to conclusions. No one here has as yet ridiculed your theory, but lets be aware that it is simply a theory. In fact it isnt something brand new that has just been thought out, either. A couple of years or so ago, over on the former Yahoo Biological Beekeeping site there was some discussion about PMS and at least one person strongly advised a newer beekeeper who reported the classical symptoms of PMS to burn his equipment because it would, he claimed, have contained viral spores. As I wrote previously: >Several of us believe..
I think those are the magic words

Some of my hives have had their share of mites up here and also showed the symptoms of PMS. Ive reused those combs with no problems as long as the mites are kept down. If the mites get out of hand PMS will likely show up again. But then it showed up on new comb, too in the first place.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

The spores last for years. They lie dormant WAITING for a host. Is what makes the deadly virus
of past epidemics so problematic.

I have had indepth conversations with researchers ( both in the U.S. and other countries) on the subject concerning virus & honey bees.

PMS samples always detect virus and always more than one.

The researchers are divided in their opinions.

One side believes my hypothesis is correct on all points. 

The other side believes that bee virus can be found in any bee hive. I certainly agree BUT a PMS deadout has got a thousand times if not tens of thousands (millions? Billions?) of times the spores of the normal hive.

All agree (at least to my face) that research needs to be done to prove one way or the other. 

From working directly with beekeepers that have lost most their hives (up to 2000 hives with two).
We were always told by our best beekeeping mind to simply install another swarm *after 7 days* (varroa dies without a host).

Long documented observation:
Before long we observed that the deadouts with PMS were the first to show pms again when varroa controls were below the 90% varroa kill range.

The reason for my concern. 

our current research involves a thousand PMS deadout boxes reused with only a light cleaning. Should know if the PMS spore problem is a valid concern. But only if the beekeeper decides not to treat until late because if he gets a high 90% varroa kill PMS will not raise its ugly head.

I hope my hypothesis is wrong! I pray I am wrong! 

I believe I am right!


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

> I believe I am right!


Isn't that a universal truth for everyone?  

Anyway, always enjoy reading your posts, Bob, and maybe this fall or winter I'll get to make your acquaintance in person at one of the conventions.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've never been much for the "germ" theory of diseases. "Germs" are everywhere, ooops, sorry Jim, "germs" are endemic. "Germs" are opportunists. Give them the opportunity and they will take it. Don't give them the opportunity and they won't.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Related to both PMS and opportunistic diseases, do any of the commercial beekeepers out there have set comb culling/disinfection protocols or is it on an "as needed" basis. I had read in one of brother Adam's books that Buckfast abby used to reduce pathogen loads through routine disinfection (with bleach?) If Buckbee is out there, I would be interested to hear if this is still the case.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

I changed all my comb after I quit using chemical strips. Took three years for me. The hardest part is looking at a perfect comb and then melting down or burning. The dark ugly comb was easy!

I have sterlized comb with a clorox solution. No way of knowing if the process worked. I use a clorox solution quite a bit around the bee farm. I keep a one gallon spray tank with the solution.
When ever I pick up a two wheel skid I spray with clorox solution before loading supers. When ever I use a super storage skid I spray the top with the solution.
I use the spray tank to get in hard to reach areas before extracting. I use on floors and on my mop bucket.
I don't look at the germ problem as bad as Howard Hughes did but I do avoid contamination if possible.
I never eat without washing my hands and get few colds. I am a health food junkie and very picky about what I eat.
If a fast food place looks dirty I will walk out and go another place. Has pissed a few friends off. They call me Howard Hughes at times! They are always sick with colds etc.!
Like Howard I do feel like withdrawing from public life but the search for intelligent life forms keeps me around people!


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Bob,
if your still eating at fast food places you haven't graduated to the level of health food Junkie's as my wife and I are.









I can't wait to read your research. I've been soaking up as much as I can here lately as I am shopping for a Masters Degree. I don't know how much of a chance I have hear at my local University, but Entomology with beekeeping would be ideal. In line with what you are looking at I was thinking about checking out this article

Apidologie 35 (2004) 359-364
DOI: 10.1051/apido:2004022
Old honey bee brood combs are more infested by the mite Varroa destructor than are new brood combs
Giancarlo A. Piccirilloa, b and David De Jong

and have read this one,

Journal of Apicultural Research 40(1): 0000 (2001)
Effects of comb age on honey bee colony growth and brood survivorship
JENNIFER A BERRY;KEITH S DELAPLANE

They don't have anything to do with PMS But, they both are pointing at old comb being detrimental to colonies when compared with new comb. I'm sure you've read them. Despite what future steps I take in School, I find beekeeping research interesting arm chair reading. I figure thats at least one thing going for me.


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## franc (Jan 7, 2003)

A virus could be latent in a bee population.Once the hive is stressed due to mites or whatever the virus is able to get a foot hold.Bees are constantly exchanging body fluids so a virus could spread like wild fire.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Franc makes excellent points and uses a word I should have.
Stressed.
Stress of commercial beekeeping weakens the bee immune system in my opinion. Also the immune system of the beekeeper!


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