# Looking for new breeder queen stock to try



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I am always looking for new breeder queen stock to try. 

I've purchased queens from some reputable apiaries over the past few years and have been pretty disappointed with their performance, temperament, disease resistance, etc.
Anyone who has suggestions for superior lines that are NORTHERN acclimated please let me know. I am 3 hours from the Canadian border and ship queens to cold climate states like Alaska and Minnesota, etc.
I am looking for your ACTUAL experience with these lines and you reason for liking them, disliking them, and a short description of your climate and what you produce with them. Not just looking for seasonal performance, but self sustainability and overall health, vigor and 'intelligence'.


Fancy names, important sounding farms/Universities and speculation is not what I am looking for.

No Italians, no Pol-Lines, no pure VSH, no queens from states with Africanized genetics.

They do not have to be inseminated queens, but do have to be reared in well controlled mating yards, reared without antibiotics.

You can PM me if you'd prefer not to mention Apiaries / beekeepers by name on the public format.
Thank you in advance!


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Tough question.... the first that popped into my head was NWC, I have no experience with them though, but I've heard good things about them from Multiple sources. Second choice that pops into mind, that I do have some experience with is Michael Palmer's stocks. The ones I have are darker bees, I did have one daughter where the hive looked pure carni, probably mated with NWC drones. They were unfortunately susceptible to having the top blow off last winter during our torrential rains and 60mph gusts on a few occasions.... Obviously winter hearty and do display flow frugality in terms of brood rearing. WSU bees, were very decent as well, they do offer some old world breeders, no claims of VSH etc... but the ones I tried out a few years ago were decent bees and were just their run of the mill queens you can order, and I think you can specify if you want more carniolan etc... as well, also have Caucasians, did not see much mite resistance but some daughters showed some potential perhaps. I hear good things about the Purdue Ankle biters but with my limited experience they've been the worse this year as far as mites and were swarmy.  I did get F1's so perhaps where you get them from matters but a lot of people seem to like them and they are on the darker spectrum of bees. I have my second VP Carni VSH breeder in her second year, daughters have been very good bees as well as the breeder. First bees working in the morning, good brooding habits, nice wax production. Joe Latshaw has some queens available, I would give a couple a try. Those are all the non Italians I have experience with from non-AHB states. Of course the trick is to see how well they combine with your stocks or if you get good hybridization and gene complementation. Kind of brings back to a discussion point on my thread in the queen sub forum on why I bring in so many other stocks.... well this is one reason, so I can actually look at them and see performance on what's out there firsthand... but I digress.


----------



## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Lauri said:


> Anyone who has suggestions for superior lines that are NORTHERN acclimated please let me know.


Maryann Frazier at Penn State did a study a few years back comparing overwintering abilities of "proven" Northern stock to "proven" Southern stock. She presented on it at EAS this year. Northern stock included Mike Palmer's along with someone else that I can't remember. Southern stock included Weaver stock and Miksa's stock. State College, PA isn't exactly at the north pole, but she still expected to see the Northern stock overwinter better overall. 

Her expectations were wrong. There was no correlation between North/South heritage and overwintering ability. There was some correlation between land use (some was ag, some was mixed use). The actual correlating factor was weight of the hive going into winter. Larger weight, regardless of heritage, always performed better.

You may be limiting your search by choosing only to go for "NORTHERN" stock.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Specialkayme said:


> You may be limiting your search by choosing only to go for "NORTHERN" stock.


Northern _Acclimated_, actually. 

My interpretation of that is a strain that will brood down and withstand several months of inactivity without starving or large numbers perishing before late spring foraging weather is available. Build up and store feed quickly in a short season climate with limited flow availability.

That is what I have now and want to establish a new line or two in my other yards for eventual incorporation with my current stock to keep my lines from loosing the hybrid vigor I have enjoyed the last several years. It will take a couple years to evaluate the new lines and I want to have the work done and ready well _before _I need it.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

From my experience with the local carnis here, once the drones genetic is mixed up with the
local bees then the offspring is totally different. I have often mentioned here about compatible
bees. Bees that are not compatible with my local bees will not make it. The hardest part is to sourced
the compatible bees with yours. If you are lucky you will find some that are a perfect match! 
Even with our recommendation you still have to sort them out and give them a fair evaluation first.


----------



## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

Lauri said:


> I am always looking for new breeder queen stock to try.
> 
> I've purchased queens from some reputable apiaries over the past few years and have been pretty disappointed with their performance, temperament, disease resistance, etc.
> Anyone who has suggestions for superior lines that are NORTHERN acclimated please let me know. I am 3 hours from the Canadian border and ship queens to cold climate states like Alaska and Minnesota, etc.
> ...


I know already talked to Lauri about them on facebook, but here is my suggestion.

Olympic Wilderness Apiaries - http://wildernessbees.com

They do well in cold/wet areas for sure. Low mite counties, and I couldnt manage to kill them from neglect during our bad weather last winter. Very busy, but very great owners. Love their facility, their helpfulness and the their lines. Russian, VSH, and ferals from the remote areas up here on the Olympic Peninsula.

Old Sol - http://oldsolbees.com/ another PNW favorite, my first year with their stock.

WSU - bees.wsu.edu/breeding-program/queens/ Also evaluating this stock for the first time this year. I'm not certain about their mite handling abilities.

I also picked up some from PeelBeeCo, and VP Queens that I'm evaluating.

So far OWA is my favorite, but I'm a tad bias possibly.


----------



## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Lauri said:


> N
> My interpretation of that is a strain that will brood down and withstand several months of inactivity without starving or large numbers perishing before late spring foraging weather is available. Build up and store feed quickly in a short season climate with limited flow availability.


As to the first point, that is exactly what Frazier thought she'd find when she compared northern and southern ACCLIMATED genetics. Only she was wrong. Being northern acclimated didn't have anything to do with their overwintering ability. Southern acclimated genetics overwintered just as well (meaning they had several months of inactivity, didn't starve, and made it into spring with good populations) as northern acclimated genetics.

As to the second point, that has nothing to do with whether you're northern or southern genetics. In actuality, the south often experiences shorter bloom periods than the north. 

But draw whatever conclusions you like.


----------



## Knisely (Oct 26, 2013)

How many isolated outyards do you think you'll be able to run? Is your plan to see how individual colonies do over a few years time with your management and then raise queens from those colonies that do well? How about your drone management plans for mating those virgins? Following with great interest.


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> As to the first point, that is exactly what Frazier thought she'd find when she compared northern and southern ACCLIMATED genetics. Only she was wrong. Being northern acclimated didn't have anything to do with their overwintering ability. Southern acclimated genetics overwintered just as well (meaning they had several months of inactivity, didn't starve, and made it into spring with good populations) as northern acclimated genetics.


Which is why I've gone back to Italians, JMO


----------



## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

Gardner's Spell Bee Co. has given me some of the best in my yard. I think they're a Carni/Italian mix. I had only one hive that was more aggressive than I wanted, but still nowhere near Africanized. Mike (I think) gave a presentation to a New Jersey club thats on YouTube about their practices. 

Sorry, but I've given up on acclimatization. Bees respond to nectar flows, environmental conditions, and management. Our winters get down around 0 and teens for extended periods, and I've had NWCs from CA do well here, as well as Gardner's Georgia bees do just as well. 

The "acclimatized" bees in my yard are of Italian descent, mean, defensive, unpleasant to work, as hardy as can be, and barely productive. They've survived a TF experiment, long cold winters, summer dearths, neglect, and all my other mistakes. No wonder they hate me.

Good luck!


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

"No wonder they hate me."

Very well put. Can they stand up to the ants on top of an ant hill too? My carnis here can do that.
A bit aggressive as everything you described left in an open field all neglected while fighting off the carpenter ants too. They are not the Italians I keep though. I have the gentle Cordovan bees. Local carnis are hardier than that.


----------



## PealBeeCo (Aug 26, 2017)

Lauri,

Perhaps it would make sense for you to tell us who you've tried already? Maybe even include the problem you had with them?

I'm certain you know this already but you can't buy just one breeder queen and expect her to be your silver bullet. You'll get far better results by buying a group of them from a breeder. Make your F1s from each breeder and evaluate from there. I'm sure you'll find one that meets your needs but it may take longer than you'd like.

Don't forget that the current stock in your apiary and/or the surrounding apiaries will play a significant part in the quality of your open mated F1s.


----------



## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Does breeder queen count as one i use to breed from for my apiary?

I've got a tiger babe that is in her 3rd year here and she has gone through TOUGH winters... always wintered outside buried in snow almost into the negatives at times in a double deep configuration. Confinement is extended, especially comparatively to your locale. 

I haven't kept track of her traits in detail, but i do know she's something to shake a stick at considering she's the only queen that's made it this long here. She's got an impressive buildup and in the late spring its wall to wall brooding. 

Dunno if it interests you at all. If so, i wouldn't be able to do anything with her until next spring anyways.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Your basic stock is derived from Carniolans obtained from Glenn crossed to local feral survivors from your area. This suggests NWC as a good entry point, however, they probably won't give much hybrid vigor.

Mike Palmer's genetics derive from Carniolan and Buckfast. I second the suggestion to get some queens from him. They are winter adapted and have the other traits described.

My personal suggestion is to get some Buckfast from Ferguson in Canada. If you order them now, they should be delivered next June. They are adapted to northern climates, will mix fairly well with the genetics you already have, and have been selected for hygienic behavior which helps quite a bit with disease resistance. The negatives are that they often are a tad aggressive when crossed to other lines and they are not very resistant to varroa. The aggression can be toned down by 2 generations of selection. Otherwise, they are superb honey gathering bees.

The only other suggestion I can make is to get some queens from a source that has bred specifically for mite resistance. You probably have an idea of the suppliers who have done this type selection.


If I were you, I would probably get a few NWC, Palmer, and Buckfast queens and set them up in separate apiaries until you see how they perform.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Knisely said:


> How many isolated outyards do you think you'll be able to run?


I have three now, but have others at my disposal if I need them. 



Knisely said:


> Is your plan to see how individual colonies do over a few years time with your management and then raise queens from those colonies that do well?


Yup! I've found it takes at least two full seasons to get a more complete idea about their traits.

Three or four years of evaluation would be better. What you need to see is a good variety of weather and extreme, difficult conditions thrown in so you can see how they handle it & compare. Getting poor specimens or the wrong genetics for your beginning stock can burn up a few years of your time if you put too much stock in them too soon. I've gained ground with the introduction of other lines, but it's been slow and many get weeded out. Some pretty quickly, some I cull after giving them all the chances in the world.

Luckily, the neat thing about queen rearing is, I can get a few generations in one year and overwinter the lot. Almost gives me a look into the future and cuts the evaluation time down significantly, but it still takes years to notice some of the more subtle particulars though.



Knisely said:


> How about your drone management plans for mating those virgins? Following with great interest.


That is pretty easy. In addition to placing a few drone mother colonies here and there, In the few years I've been selling nucs to keep my numbers manageable, Many have gone to neighbors that are within the range of my mating yards. They have been successful and have split & expanded so there are many small yards with about 10 hives or so all with my stock. Any neighbors I have that buy southern imported nucs, I hook them up with new queens. I have no large apiaries near me that have southern stock.

My yard near Mt. Rainier at higher elevation is next to wilderness area that is not accessible to vehicles and is surrounded by a lake that is formed by direct run off from the Mt. While any feral status of bees is debatable, what naturally exists there had been in it's own for many years + drone mother colonies I introduce. It's not an island, but it's pretty good.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> Your basic stock is derived from Carniolans obtained from Glenn crossed to local feral survivors from your area. This suggests NWC as a good entry point, however, they probably won't give much hybrid vigor.
> 
> Mike Palmer's genetics derive from Carniolan and Buckfast. I second the suggestion to get some queens from him. They are winter adapted and have the other traits described.
> 
> ...


We think alike. 
I have my order with Mike in already and contacted Bill earlier this year


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

PealBeeCo said:


> Lauri,
> 
> Perhaps it would make sense for you to tell us who you've tried already? Maybe even include the problem you had with them?


Not going to do that.

It all depends on your perspective and what you are looking for out of your stock. What I don't want in mine my may be what someone else is looking for.
Here is what I DON'T want:

-Brooding up with no sensitivity to weather & natural feed source availability. I don't do pollination services and nether do my customers. Late winter survival and honey production is more important than early population out of season. When I mentioned "intelligence" I was referring in a broad way to multi seasonal self preservation.
When you see different lines side by side and in enough numbers your conclusions are usually pretty accurate, it is amazing the differences in lines, especially when weather is extreme. It's pretty easy to choose the winners for your climate and needs. What I would likely discard as unsuitable might be good for someone else in a different climate with different needs. 

-Such high mite sensitivity they uncap brood endlessly, to the detriment of population. The pure VSH I tried from two different sources were almost bazaar in nature and were so bad at honey production I couldn't bring myself spend any more time on them. 

What I have now is a good _balance_ of VSH , Biting, other mite controlling type traits and productiveness. 

-Temperament. It needs to be reasonable & workable. Many of my customers are beginners and I rather enjoy wearing shorts in the hot summer weather while I work. When I shake bees or make up mating nucs, I want them to stay on the frames, not take to the air and fly back to the old hive (or all over me). Calm nature makes any work easier. I (we) can tolerate bees that are more demanding of respectful, or careful handling, but not testy or downright nasty.

-Disease resistance. I don't use antibiotics and won't. I just don't need it with my current stock. 

EFB & chalk brood is a real pain. Poor genetics or dependency on meds. One of the reason's I don't collect swarms anymore, and haven't for a few years. Likely from back yard hives when collected near populated areas. Without the meds they apparently are dependent on, and they are usually dead or near dead by the end of the summer or certainly by spring with the same management as my other hives. Disease resistance is a big factor.

-I don't want to produce Light colors. I know some will scoff at this, but I prefer the dark or more interesting colors, but more importantly, my customers usually want darks. That's what the demand is and that's what I try to produce with as much consistency as possible. 

































- % of Dud production. I don't get it now, don't want it. 
That's why I want new lines in the works in their own yards. If I feel I'm getting a genetic bottle neck at some point, I want tried and true varieties to eventually bring in to my main mating yard. Because I know it is risky, I want to see it with my own eyes before I dedicate my time to production. I don't want to change my stock, I want to enhance it. I certainly don't want to harm it.


----------



## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Lauri said:


> What I have now is a good _balance_ of VSH , Biting, other mite controlling traits and productiveness.


I'd be interested to know more about how you came to this conclusion.

How you know you have a good balance of VSH. Are you genetically testing? Or is it more observational based on a certain percentage of bald-brood? Are you looking at mite drops to count biting? What "other mite controlling traits" are you talking about.



Lauri said:


> I don't use antibiotics and won't. I just don't need it with my current stock. . . EFB & chalk brood is a real pain. One of the reason's I don't collect swarms anymore, and haven't for a few years. Likely from back yard hives when collected near populated areas. Without the meds they apparently are dependent on . . .


I wasn't aware of any meds that Chalkbrood responds to. It's a fungus. Not a bacterial infection (so antibiotics won't do anything to it). EFBs a different story. I've never treated for it, and it just goes away with requeening and a nectar flow. Others throw antibiotics at the hive. To each their own.

If there are some meds out there that work for Chalkbrood, please let me know. Wouldn't use them personally, but just curious.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Hey, I'm just looking for good quality potential breeder stock, not looking to defend or explain in detail every statement I make.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Lauri said:


> Hey, I'm just looking for good quality potential breeder stock, not looking to defend or explain in detail every statement I make.


With all the fancy attributes claimed and labels given to bees these days it's hard for many to grasp the concept of 
plain and simple "good bees".


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

clyderoad said:


> With all the fancy attributes claimed and labels given to bees these days it's hard for many to grasp the concept of
> plain and simple "good bees".


It all boils down to that, doesn't it.

All I can say is, while I've had 35 years of small farm/livestock AG experience, I've been beekeeping for only 7 years, have had over 200 colonies for four of those and have to sell spring nucs to keep my hive numbers manageable. My customers who previously had years of high or total annual losses are now successful with the bees and queen they've gotten from me. 

We all couldn't do it without good bees that don't need to be babied. Most don't care why, need a fancy name, DNA testing or scientific study, they just want them to work. 

They are tickled now that the bleeding has stopped.

Glenn hive, September photo:









Gentle Mountain honey frames:

















Reliable cells from healthy willing colonies 









Neat and tidy, a pleasure to work. If I can do this with little experience, I give most of the credit to the bees.


----------



## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

With performance and an acceptance rate like that I think I'd be looking for better genetics, too. 

Don't sell your experience short. You're clearly successful and have done quite a bit in your bee years. I appreciate your willingness to share for the rest of us to learn from. Keeping your customers "tickled" and willing to come back is great!


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I know that you said no VSH, and no doubt you have good reasons. I did the Glenn Apiaries route for a few years and the results were HORRIBLE. They simply ate themselves into oblivion. Even the first out-cross was very poor. Later, I was fortunate to get some stock directly out of the Baton Rouge Bee lab and all I can say is WOW! These bees were absolutely amazing - great honey producers, thrifty, reasonably gentle, and fantastic wrt mites. The lab has since stopped the public distribution of Pol-Line and VSH semen, so that stream has dried out. I have also tried Dr. John Harbo queens and have been very impressed with them as well. Harbo queens are definitely darker and good producers. Not as highly VSH as some directly out of USDA, but still very good. I have never directly purchased queens from VP queens, so I can't comment on his stock - I'll let others provide feedback. If you're looking for NWC, I've used strachan apiaries before and was very impressed. However I haven't used them in a while, so I can't speak to recent quality/performance.

Perhaps you should contact Sue Cobey directly and she if she has any recommendations?


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

AstroBee said:


> I know that you said no VSH, and no doubt you have good reasons.


I said no _Pure_ VSH. Crosses are probably OK. I've found too much VSH expression to be almost more of a detriment than a benefit. 



AstroBee said:


> I did the Glenn Apiaries route for a few years and the results were HORRIBLE.


I guess I was fortunate with my Glenns. I bought 5 II queens of various strains and settled on the VSH Carniolan cross for my main breeder. First daughters uncapped a ton of cells and built up slowly. Once the mites were under control, (with a little help from me) they thrived. With my inexperience at that time and the poor condition of the nucs they were installed in, it's amazing they survived at all. Subsequent generations have been amazing now that I would guess some of the VSH traits have been diluted. 




AstroBee said:


> Perhaps you should contact Sue Cobey directly and she if she has any recommendations?


I've talked to Dr Shepard a few times. I'm sure Sue is busy and don't want to bother her. I'd want to know a whole lot more than she'd be willing to answer I'm pretty sure. What I need to do is ( if they would allow me) go to the campus apiary and see for my self how they handle the queen rearing and the colonies conditions before I bother Sue for more details. Just because a queen is II or from a university doesn't mean it will be a good breeder. There are quite a few people around who are pretty proud they have a Sue Colby breeder. What I've not heard is what they have actually achieved with it. Imported drone semen _sounds_ important. There are things I've heard that may or may not be true. I'd like to see the actual results. Remember, you commit yourself to a lot of time and resources when you bring in a new line. I'm going to be picky.

I do know folks seem to hold her in high regard. She may be nice, she may be smart. But are her line of queens what I am looking for? Maybe, maybe not.


----------



## PealBeeCo (Aug 26, 2017)

AstroBee said:


> I have never directly purchased queens from VP queens, so I can't comment on his stock - I'll let others provide feedback.


I picked up some breeders from VP this year. I've raised >100 queens out of them and they are great bees for me. I have a number of fancy named queens in my drone yards and I will continue to bring them in for evaluation. That being said, I've found VP breeders to be a great starting place for one half of the equation.


----------



## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Lauri said:


> not looking to defend or explain in detail every statement I make.


Oh, ok. I didn't know it was out of line to ask for more explanation on some fairly outlandish claims. But that's fine.

"Don't look at the man behind the curtain."


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Specialkayme said:


> Oh, ok. I didn't know it was out of line to ask for more explanation on some fairly outlandish claims. But that's fine.


What, I wear shorts when I work? 



















Specialkayme said:


> "Don't look at the man behind the curtain."


So don't look at the lady behind the veil if it upsets you.


----------



## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Lol. "Outlandish" claim verified.


----------



## Knisely (Oct 26, 2013)

I like the duck wing ready to grab with your right hand in your hip pack.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Knisely said:


> I like the duck wing ready to grab with your right hand in your hip pack.


That one has seen better days. I'm ready for my husband to go duck hunting again for a fresh supply of wings.

















I brush bees of a lot of queen cells during the season. The wing is soft and springy, works great.

The tool belt also is handy. Everything I need within reach. And I never misplace my hive tool. + a nice wet rag dipped in diluted bleach water to keep my tools and hands clean
I can toss this tool belt in the wash and it comes out like new.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Lauri said:


> That one has seen better days. I'm ready for my husband to go duck hunting again for a fresh supply of wings.
> 
> View attachment 35496


Did he leave any ducks for the rest of us.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Of course, Michael, just look beyond the background. Over there, over the other
side farther away behind the patch of brown grass. Plenty more where those came from. Now, now don't just
settle for the wings. How about that one for one. One big fat duck, minus the wings, for one of your big fat dark hairy legs matilda-the-
hux breeder queen. Have heard good things about those dark hairy legs queen before. What ya say? UPS over night is faster 
than those flying wings coast to coast.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Curious Lauri, that pic with your hair hanging out of your veil, do you not get bees in it? The ladies in my life with long hair all seem to get harrassed by bees very interested in their hair, I cannot figure why or how to prevent it.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Curious Lauri, that pic with your hair hanging out of your veil, do you not get bees in it? The ladies in my life with long hair all seem to get harrassed by bees very interested in their hair, I cannot figure why or how to prevent it.


It's usually rolled up in a bun and tucked under my hat to keep it out of my face and out of the way. 









I'm just doing mating nucs in the other photo so it's OK down. 

The only time they are prone to getting into my hair is at the end of the main flow when temps are really hot in the evening and old foragers flying back are a little cranky if I happen to get in their way. I'll put on my veil for a late walk through the bee yard if it's that time of year, otherwise I don't need to wear it to walk around.

I don't wear any perfume or use highly scented hair products, just shampoo and a little olive oil for conditioner that I leave in.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> Did he leave any ducks for the rest of us.


 He goes with a group of guys to get that many. Few of them want the meat so I get quite a bit of duck breast to put up. Cut in small chunks, roll in dry Progresso Italian bread crumb seasoning and fry in olive oil. We cook heart the same way and it's hard to tell them apart.


----------



## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

Lauri said:


> He goes with a group of guys to get that many. Few of them want the meat so I get quite a bit of duck breast to put up. Cut in small chunks, roll in dry Progresso Italian bread crumb seasoning and fry in olive oil. We cook heart the same way and it's hard to tell them apart.


I'm kinda hungry now.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Lauri said:


> I don't wear any perfume or use highly scented hair products, just shampoo and a little olive oil for conditioner that I leave in.


Thanks. Has there been issues using particular hair products? Just, it's a mystery to me, it can be a nice day, bees happy, yet suddenly from nowhere there will be 2 or 3 bees trying to get into the persons hair and being aggressive. No interest in me, just attracted to the persons hair.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Thanks. Has there been issues using particular hair products? Just, it's a mystery to me, it can be a nice day, bees happy, yet suddenly from nowhere there will be 2 or 3 bees trying to get into the persons hair and being aggressive. No interest in me, just attracted to the persons hair.


I think it's just easy to cling to and they know it.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK, thanks


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

My advice to anyone I know who is around the hives is to immediately crush any bee that gets into their hair. I figure it's akin to the bee getting in a spider web or something similar, they just freak out and immediately go into stingy mode when they get caught in hair for some reason. We like to make duck poppers..... butterfly the breast meat, put in a little cream cheese, onion, jalepeno, roll it up with bacon on the outside and grill it.....


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> My advice to anyone I know who is around the hives is to immediately crush any bee that gets into their hair. I figure it's akin to the bee getting in a spider web or something similar, they just freak out and immediately go into stingy mode when they get caught in hair for some reason. We like to make duck poppers..... butterfly the breast meat, put in a little cream cheese, onion, jalepeno, roll it up with bacon on the outside and grill it.....


The ones that get stung the most here are sweaty men on hot days that are really thin on top. Usually Ukrainian with a thick accent. They bring along their buddies and stroll through the yard while I collect their queens. I 've usually been out stirring them up before they've arrived & More often than not, I hear a few choice words and turn around to see their buddy picking a stinger out of his head. They are an interesting group, several have told me how they fled Ukraine, never dreamed Russia would try to invade. There is a bit of a language barrier, but that's what I get out of the conversation. They sure love the black queens.

I've been known to run through the yard slapping myself in the head a few times too. Neighbors think I'm crazy no doubt. 
My sister in law works here for my husband and sees me neck deep in bees all the time without issue. If she sees ME running, she really is freaked out, lol.
I know most of you have seen this sign, but for those that haven't...


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Ha, I got aluminum hat to go with that. Every guest should wear one.


----------



## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

So what did you decide on?



Lauri said:


> I am always looking for new breeder queen stock to try.
> 
> I've purchased queens from some reputable apiaries over the past few years and have been pretty disappointed with their performance, temperament, disease resistance, etc.
> Anyone who has suggestions for superior lines that are NORTHERN acclimated please let me know. I am 3 hours from the Canadian border and ship queens to cold climate states like Alaska and Minnesota, etc.
> ...


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Another approach is to see what traits are present in the local population and bring in queens that have missing traits. After they are present, selection, natural and otherwise is needed to bring them to the fore.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I yesterday put queencells from this queen into mating nucs. She was caught in a bait hive in 2014 near our Fairgrounds at the front door of a suburban residence. Her strain is now a three year treatment free survivor, good temper, low swarming as they have produced a 250lb crop three years in a row. I have no idea on their genetics and have not studied their coloring. I have several similar strains that would be good for breeding if no pedigree is required. I have after 47 years finally started breeding from my best hives. Semi retirement has great benefits, in addition to being able to sleep in. I think I catch good strains in my neighbor hoods because I have been importing good strains for 40 years and my swarms have blended to make a good local feral strain. I do use Bweaver queens so can not testify to zero African influence, however have not had any bad temper problems from them.
The pictured hives are 12 frame jumbos topped with ten frame boxes. I estimate that to be a 370lb+crop (50+50+50+60+70, with the top box being ten jumbo frames drawn from foundation.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Over here we have the carnis from the local bee association. Some are the regular banded carnis while 
some are the jet black carnis. Both got their worth in our semi-desert summer condition and windy chilly winter bee environment. I got a newly mated resistant carnis daughter mated with the local drones. The result is both regular banded carnis and some jet black carnis workers. Yes, I do pay special attention to my bees' color. The first round of the emerged bees are gentle, somewhat of a dumb looking non-aggressive type bees. Don't know what other term I
can use on them. At 2 weeks post emergence the workers are on their foraging mode already. They do work hard on the early Autumn blooming Nyers. They're rather early foragers compare to my Cordovan workers. Not sure if they are the pedigree or not. My goal right now is to keep the Cordovan genetics only. Let's help Lauri to bring her next chapter of beekeeping to a promising one!


Hard foraging local banded carnis.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have seen a "T" shirt that said "I'm a beekeeper. If you see me running, try to keep up."


----------



## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

(content deleted by author)


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thank you for all the replies and PM's. Sorry about my slow replies, but my neighbor unfortunately lit a camp fire last week and it got away from him, spread to my property and burn a few acres. Been dealing with that mess. Luckily, I wanted to do more prep work to the location and had not moved my hives there yet.
It burned several old growth cedar trees that will likely have to be taken down.

































I was brush hogging at the time with my earplugs in and RPM's up to 2500. Did not hear all the commotion next door. Just happened to look up to see the smoke & flames at the neighbors. It's incredible how fast they spread. I had to make a run for the road. Luckily, I had been mowing all week and most of the grass on my property was already cut short. Slowed the spread enough the fire fighters could get a handle on it before it burned the whole place.










I will reply to the questions asap.


----------



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

To get back to your original question, my only recommendation would be Olympic Wilderness over on the peninsula. They are very isolated so there would be very little "contamination" from the average backyard beekeeper stock. I bought them 3 years in a row before starting to raise my own this year. I have used them and had very good overwintering survival with them. The winter clusters are very small, I don't find them as swarmy as Carni's, and they brood fast in spring. Last year I got my largest maple harvest ever averaging 40 lbs. per hive from those queens. I have not found them to be mean but they don't like yellow jackets at all. Robbing is not an issue.


----------



## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

dudelt said:


> To get back to your original question, my only recommendation would be Olympic Wilderness over on the peninsula. They are very isolated so there would be very little "contamination" from the average backyard beekeeper stock. I bought them 3 years in a row before starting to raise my own this year. I have used them and had very good overwintering survival with them. The winter clusters are very small, I don't find them as swarmy as Carni's, and they brood fast in spring. Last year I got my largest maple harvest ever averaging 40 lbs. per hive from those queens. I have not found them to be mean but they don't like yellow jackets at all. Robbing is not an issue.


I have to second third and fourth OWA. Not only are their bees top notch, they are absolutely great people. Their queens cost a bit more up front, but save you more in the long run by well not dying as easy as other do here lol.

I wouldn't bee with bees now without them. Met them by calling around in a panic about bees in a tree we cut down. I didn't want those stinging insects anywhere near me. Dan came out and did this : https://imgur.com/a/BfPuh by the time he was done, I was comfortable around bees. Few weeks later I get a phone call "do you want your bees back"?

They are always helpful, walked me from taking bees from a tree, successfully keeping them alive, to successfully breeding our own queens. I even some how talked Dan into letting me shadow on grafting day. Took my grafting success rate from 10% to 95%+ in a few hours. His wife is amazing too, and has formed an attachment with my 6yr old daughter.

Few weeks ago the yellow jackets were destroying me. Stripping my hive of all larvae. They hit an important queen to me, one of the first II queens I did. I was able to save the queen but not the hive, Dan and Judy offered up a hive for her, so I didn't have to pinch another queen to save her.

Great people who can not get enough praise from me.

Edit: To add to this, my OWA stock over winters on 9 frame mediums, without issue. The original hive went from 1 medium to 5 this year. Nice small winter clusters, big spring booms.


----------



## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Lauri said:


> We think alike.
> I have my order with Mike in already and contacted Bill earlier this year


I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on these. I have both as well as local stock from a friend that started with Hastings Carniolans from Saskatchewan. Our other local stock definitely leaves something to be desired but most of it is imported from other regions. So far I have had very good luck with my friends queens. This season I decided to bring in some stock from Mike as well as Buckfast from Ferguson’s. They were installed late season so I don’t have much to go on but remain optimistic.


----------



## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

Friend Lauri,

Last year I tried out some new stock from Stan' and Alicia Moulton at "The Honey Company" (Provo, Utah). Stan is a long time commercial "Bee Keeper". He has developed a strain that I am inpressed with and that am having really good success with. Please take just a moment and dial up "The Honey Company" on You tube and review the origin and his success so far. This is a ferral strain he discovered on the Navajo Reservation. They are gentle to work with and very hardy. They had mites, eventhough they had been untreated for at least the last 20 years. 

I have been well pleased with doing business with these folks and they have been a really good source of counsel and direction. They now live in Spring City, Utah.

I wish you well, LP


----------



## Tristan Eck (Mar 1, 2016)

I recommend Four Seasons Apiaries. I've bought queens from various places and am very impressed with his queens which are the start of my own breeding program. They vary in color from light to very dark.


----------

