# Hot hives



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

move them out in the country - and requeen. May try to requeen by letting them raise there own - a young queen will settle them down - that is if not mated with AHB. I had 3 hives at the house this spring - last fall gentle as kittens - split this spring and they were meaner than a dickens. So I moved them from the house - PS got 11 splits and the original 3 hives from them hot little suckers though - and now that there requeened can super them with no veil.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

If the AHB has been in your area since 2007, nearly every feral hive will be hybridised. Replacing queens, and "documents", from "reputable breeders" will do nothing for the vast majority of bees. It's that way here, too. I personally cull mean queens, if I get them in swarms or splits. But, even drones pass on the genes. A new virgin queen of any type will likely breed to AHB, rendering daughter queens a hybrid. So, what would you do, besides give up beekeeping?

Replacing your queens works, for your beeyard, but doesnt do squat about all the bees out there. The gentle queens, are usurped at the rate of 40 to 50% in a few months. 80 % after 1 year. Sometimes, in a few days. Its generally temporary.

Many of the feral bees are workable, with caution. Not all are too hot. And thats what I catch, often.
What I've done, is keep them small hives, by splitting. Pinch any vicious queens, Always wear full protection. The bee problems / deaths here ( Az.) are always from feral bees. It is neccesary to do things differently. The days of "no gloves, no veil" ended in this state 10 years ago.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

SE Texas we have some but not all for now - shoot nat/jade - I wish ya luck with this issue


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Thanks, sakhoney. About 6 or so years ago, I just got tired of fighting it, and learned to do things differently. Still catching, & keeping wild/mean bees. The varroa mites taught me the value of smaller colonies, and the side effect of less aggression. I really dont like gloves in summer but getting stung hurts! It's do-able but not like beekeeping used to be. But I enjoy a good challenge.😊


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## synthia (Jan 1, 2017)

Take a queen cell from a gentle hive, kill the queen in the hot hive and place the queen cell in the hot hive and let the nurse bees care for the cell. Drones from other colloney will mate with the princes and there you go. No need to kill the whole colloney, right?


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## jredburn (Feb 25, 2012)

We have the same problem in SW Florida, The State sets out 600+ swarm traps and kills everything they catch. They think this will eliminate the Africans. Ha. 
About all ferals have some African in them and can be gentle one day and mean the next. A 7 ft high barricade around the hive keeps them from bothering people. It makes them fly up and over peoples heads before they can fly horizontally.
A feral hive that is within 3 ft of the ground or hanging out in the open is very Africanized and needs to be left alone by the general public. It needs to be removed / relocated by a fully suited bee keeper.


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## nater37 (Aug 15, 2013)

In theory yes. But, in real life i would say 40/60 chance maybe less. First of all these hot hives are not pleasent to work with and smoking them seems to piss them off. Trying to find a queen in a hive with 60,000 plus bees in it, is a challenge, then having a couple 100 mad workers all in your face. As soon as they notice that there queen is gone the are going to make there own queen cells. Maybe the one you installed makes it and maybe not. Then when she takes her mating flight she might breed right back with the drones from the mean hive or a even hotter hive. 
So I usually take all open brood from hive install Queen excluder and then install open brood from one of my good hives. Check back the next day to see what side of excluder she is on.. try to find her and kill her. But most the time its just easier to trash hive and start over.. 1 kid or animal get killed from my bees it would all be over. So if your going to keep the hot bees I suggest a good lawyer and a better insurance company


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

You can only control the things you have authority to do so. Got Africanized Hybrid bees with a temper? Then you need to requeen, that is of coarse with a stock that is from a gentle hive that you want from a NON Africanized zone. I buy mine from California and have to do that due to the zone I live in. I WILL NEVER EVER deal with a hot hive and let it go on and have bees run me. Big difference in bees managing me VS them managing me. I will always have to buy queens from California due to the Africanized Hybrids in the zone I live in. Don't get wrapped up in negativity from what others do as you do not have control over them.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

synthia said:


> Take a queen cell from a gentle hive, kill the queen in the hot hive and place the queen cell in the hot hive and let the nurse bees care for the cell. Drones from other colloney will mate with the princes and there you go. No need to kill the whole colloney, right?


 I am telling you now that temperment of Africanized bees change to more defensive the larger they become. Gentle hive and manageable when they're building up from start. Get 10 frames drawn and you'll see the temperament change until pretty soon you notice 50 yds you can not walk closer with out suiting up. 
The only way to deal with bees is to buy queens from out of state in NON Africanized bee zones. Mean bees suck! Majority of people have no idea sitting on at a computer desk what Africanized Hybrid bees really are like and can only speculate. Big difference in someone that has kept them and managed them VS a "HOT" hive where someone doesn't like the bees cause they got aggravated a few times at them.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

I'm in CA with highly defensive ferals, and I was having this conversation with a local beek at the Pierce store. He says he buys Italian queens and then uses frames of their eggs to raise his own, open-mated, half-Italian hybrids, and that works well for him. He says his bees have good survivability and manageability. And he gets his half-Italian queens for free.

I'm thinking of trying this. I plan to trap and/or collect a swarm or two this spring, and based on last year's experience I might want to put a new, laying queen into them once they've laid a batch of brood. 

I do have two colonies with full Italian queens. So how do I start raising my own half-Italians? Is this what a mating nuc is for?


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

Nature provides the bee. All you need to do is keep it. If you find wild bee's to be unmanageable, you're the one with the problem, not the bees. African bee's dominate the local gene pool for one reason. They are the strongest. They're the healthiest and most productive colonies in the area. Cultivation is the most sustainable way to produce with whatever nature provides. You're not cultivating if your killing your queen or shipping bee's in from somewhere else. That's not sustainable and it's contributing to the spread of disease and many other problems. 
I plan on keeping the wild bee's I catch, and finding ways to manage their behavior. All creatures can be taught behavioral traits. Even the African ones.


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## Swarmhunter (Mar 5, 2015)

You got to be kidding me, right?


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

They manage Scutellata in several places, and they do it well. Brazil... Argentina... Yucatan... Africa.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Swarmhunter said:


> You got to be kidding me, right?


X2


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## Tom1617 (Oct 17, 2016)

I am sure that will work well in my suburban neighborhood.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

hmmm


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

No it won't. National forest, state trust land. Just get a permit.


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## Swarmhunter (Mar 5, 2015)

N R -How many bees do you have? Have you put your theories into practice? If so how many hives have you had stolen or damaged in this National Forest or State Trust land?


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## Skunkape71 (Oct 14, 2014)

opcorn:

This one's gonna get good...


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## nater37 (Aug 15, 2013)

NaturesResonance said:


> Nature provides the bee. All you need to do is keep it. If you find wild bee's to be unmanageable, you're the one with the problem, not the bees. African bee's dominate the local gene pool for one reason. They are the strongest. They're the healthiest and most productive colonies in the area. Cultivation is the most sustainable way to produce with whatever nature provides. You're not cultivating if your killing your queen or shipping bee's in from somewhere else. That's not sustainable and it's contributing to the spread of disease and many other problems.
> I plan on keeping the wild bee's I catch, and finding ways to manage their behavior. All creatures can be taught behavioral traits. Even the African ones.


Well it sounds like you have it figured out. I just hope you have a huge amount of liability insurance. My experience is a little different. When I have been in hot hives I may get hit with 50 bees and this was previously a docile hive that swarmed and bred with area drones. When I have gotten into African hives it is closer to half the hive. This may just be from a mower, weed eater or a customer calling cause they are getting stung for being in vicinity. You might have a hard time explaining your theory to the families of the numerous utility men killed in Texas the last few years from African hives or to some kids parents that your bees have killed. But as you say I may be the one with the problem..:scratch:


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

NaturesResonance said:


> ...All creatures can be taught behavioral traits. Even the African ones.


You can be sure that you will not 'teach' honey bees anything. Nothing practical anyway. We all can be sure that you will adapt to the bees, or be very sorry in your process. We would like to help you understand honey bees, but it seems that you already know it all, and won't receive instruction from anyone. Let your education begin...I hope noone gets killed because of your idealistic track. Good luck.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

They have laws restricting distance, regarding hives in areas with African traits. It would be wise to maintain a greater distance, regardless of laws. Your average burglar doesn't steal honey. Even if they did, you can take security more seriously. A pad locked hive, game cameras, fences. You can hang your hive from trees to keep from bears. 

The number of beekeepers has dramatically declined because the old guys don't want to try new things. They get frustrated by hot hives or new diseases. They aren't willing to adapt to their environment. Stop expecting things to be so easy.

Admittedly, I'm new at this, and that's probably why I have this attitude. Call me naive, but I've inherited a world that was built by my predecessors. Those predecessors are responsible for the "hot hives" being there. So don't assume I'm going to do more harm by not following their paradigm. It takes a fresh attitude to think outside the box. All I'm saying is don't dismiss potential solutions, before trying them out. 
I watched a bee roll a ball to get food, this morning. Then the rest of the hive learned from example. That took researchers less than a week to prove bee's can learn new behavior. 

Besides requeening the traits away. What have you tried? Smoke isn't working... Why? Have you tried feeding them differently or using different scents to throw off their senses? 
I hate to see people throwing in the towel so easily...


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

Naturesresonance. You don't have much on your bio page. How long have you been keeping bees for? How many hives do you have? What was your motivation for getting into beekeeping?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

NaturesResonance said:


> They have laws restricting distance, regarding hives in areas with African traits. It would be wise to maintain a greater distance, regardless of laws. Your average burglar doesn't steal honey. Even if they did, you can take security more seriously. A pad locked hive, game cameras, fences. You can hang your hive from trees to keep from bears.
> 
> The number of beekeepers has dramatically declined because the old guys don't want to try new things. They get frustrated by hot hives or new diseases. They aren't willing to adapt to their environment. Stop expecting things to be so easy.
> 
> ...


More of the same.........
No need to announce being new, it's very clear that is the case.
How many beekeepers do you know to claim the old guys don't want to try new things and get frustrated then get out?

Ok, you're naive (maybe dangerous too). What's worse also a finger pointer.

This is so silly it would be funny except that the mindset has gotten old and tiring.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

Lburou said:


> You can be sure that you will not 'teach' honey bees anything. Anything at practical all. We all can be sure that you will adapt to the bees, or be very sorry in your process. We would like to help you understand honey bees, but it seems that you already know it all, and won't receive instruction from anyone. Let your education begin...I hope noone gets killed because of your idealistic track. Good luck.


If you think you can't teach a honey bee anything, then I already know more than you. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/11/061128140820.htm That's just one of many examples of people teaching honey bees. People have been training bee's for a long time. If you don't think it's possible. I suggest trying it. 

I'm very willing to learn. I'm also smart enough to take everything with a big grain of salt. "Instruction" is not the way to develop critical thinking. It's just following an example. Half the time it's probably an example of what you probably shouldn't do. Other times it's hard not to argue with the logic. 
If I "adapt" to bee's, then I'll be learning from them instead of you. Regrettably, that's probably best that I do. You seem to be more unwilling to learn than me or even the bee's for that matter.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

Clyde, have you ever dealt with African bee's? I have dealt with them and I've spoken to several beekeepers that have been very discouraged by hot hives in Arizona. Several have either quit all together or left for a higher latitude where they can keep using their old habits.


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## Swarmhunter (Mar 5, 2015)

N. R. - maybe you should start your own Bee Circus since you can train them so good.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

*Ignore Option*

This is why there is an ignore option. :no:


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

Swarmhunter said:


> N. R. - maybe you should start your own Bee Circus since you can train them so good.


It's ignorant statements like this, that are just the thing that makes me not want to take their advice. Just useless trolling instead of Socratic method. I'll just stop replying until I see an argument that holds water.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Troll.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

NaturesResonance said:


> All creatures can be taught behavioral traits. Even the African ones.


Have you ever even opened a beehive? This is one of the silliest comments I've ever read on beesource. I don't live in AHB territory (yet), but I've worked some crazy defensive hybrid bees that had one thing on their mind, which was killing me. This was not a teaching moment. This wasn't time to consider sustainability, etc. It was time to fix the problem before someone lost their life. I suggest that you get a few years of experience managing bees before making such unfounded statements.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

AstroBee said:


> Have you ever even opened a beehive? This is one of the silliest comments I've ever read on beesource. I don't live in AHB territory (yet), but I've worked some crazy defensive hybrid bees that had one thing on their mind, which was killing me. This was not a teaching moment. This wasn't time to consider sustainability, etc. It was time to fix the problem before someone lost their life. I suggest that you get a few years of experience managing bees before making such unfounded statements.


If you were concerned about someone losing their life, you obviously made a mistake. Can you be killed if you and everyone in the vicinity is wearing a full bee suit? Did you smoke properly before opening the hive? If so, what were you burning and how did you apply it? Yes, I've opened several "hot hives" with bees that responded appropriately...

How would you respond if someone pulled the roof off your house? I always expect wild hives to be extremely defensive. That means, I make sure nobody is at risk of being killed-before I open one. 

Once you realized it was a "hot hive" what did you do differently the next time you approached the hive? Give us the full story...


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Although your tips on using a smoker may be helpful to some, you've exposed yourself as someone who doesn't even understand the process of AHB migration. Usurpation can occur without any advance notification of the beekeeper. They don't ring the beekeeper to inform them that their old friendly Italians have been evicted - they just do it, and do so with great efficiency. If this happens during a time when inspections are not frequent, e.g., post swarm season, the next inspection can be a VERY difference colony of bees. Sure, if you know what to expect then management should proceed without injury, but the point is that in transition boundaries or other importation situations you can't predict such outcomes.

I remain completely unconvinced that you have any experience working honey bees.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Ignore Option*



Lburou said:


> This is why there is an ignore option. :no:



I probably should have done that before responding.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

AstroBee said:


> Although your tips on using a smoker may be helpful to some, you've exposed yourself as someone who doesn't even understand the process of AHB migration. Usurpation can occur without any advance notification of the beekeeper. They don't ring the beekeeper to inform them that their old friendly Italians have been evicted - they just do it, and do so with great efficiency. If this happens during a time when inspections are not frequent, e.g., post swarm season, the next inspection can be a VERY difference colony of bees. Sure, if you know what to expect then management should proceed without injury, but the point is that in transition boundaries or other importation situations you can't predict such outcomes.
> 
> I remain completely unconvinced that you have any experience working honey bees.


What makes you think I don't know about AHB migration or usurpation habits? I've been studying them for years. You're not the first person to encounter them either. 

You still haven't told me the full story. I can only assume you were caught off guard by a hive with a new African Queen. You probably expected them to be the same docile Italians you had before. 

I don't live in a transition zone. I live in a fully Africanized zone. The only hives in Arizona that aren't Africanized are the ones that recently had a foreign queen introduced. Every beekeeper in an African or African-transition zone should expect their hives to be "hot".


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## gruntworker (May 20, 2013)

*Re: Ignore Option*

I purchased a hot hive a few months back and moved it to my friends 4.2 acres. It is a long strip of land with his property on one end and the hive on the other. I opened the hive and my friend's kid and dog were stung 300 feet away. I was attack by many hundreds and the area remained unsafe until nightfall. I did not walk to the house. I stayed on the other end of the property until nightfall in my truck (which they were covering).

It gave me a new perspective on what a hot hive was and I will never try to split and re queen a large hybrid hive again. There were other homes in the area (300 feet). What if I had caused a little kid to get stung? Lots of guilt and an equal amount of perspective. I culled them the next day and it was the only choice. If you are going to try train hybrids you better make sure you have a very large buffer between you and anyone who could be harmed. I have never seen anything like it and I hope never to again. 

You may receive a dose of reality when you are slapped in the face with the aggressive potential these bees have. I did. If i am going to get a swarm i am going to re queen them when the population is low from queens purchased out of the Phoenix area. I am also going to look for a place that has a much bigger area if I think there is any chance for hybrid bees. 

Training bees? MY mind goes to Cesar the dog whisperer with a dog latched onto his arm. We all agree that dogs can be trained and still bad things can happen when you work with dangerous dogs.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

*Re: Ignore Option*



gruntworker said:


> I purchased a hot hive a few months back and moved it to my friends 4.2 acres. It is a long strip of land with his property on one end and the hive on the other. I opened the hive and my friend's kid and dog were stung 300 feet away. I was attack by many hundreds and the area remained unsafe until nightfall. I did not walk to the house. I stayed on the other end of the property until nightfall in my truck (which they were covering).
> 
> It gave me a new perspective on what a hot hive was and I will never try to split and re queen a large hybrid hive again. There were other homes in the area (300 feet). What if I had caused a little kid to get stung? Lots of guilt and an equal amount of perspective. I culled them the next day and it was the only choice. If you are going to try train hybrids you better make sure you have a very large buffer between you and anyone who could be harmed. I have never seen anything like it and I hope never to again.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I plan on keeping a minimum of 200 meters from any people or livestock. National Forest, AZ State Trust land, or a really big ranch.
I don't doubt I'll be stung in the process, either.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

*Re: Ignore Option*



NaturesResonance said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I plan on keeping a minimum of 200 meters from any people or livestock. National Forest, AZ State Trust land, or a really big ranch.
> I don't doubt I'll be stung in the process, either.


If you know so much about AHB than you should know 200 meters still doesn't protect anything or anyone.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

*Re: Ignore Option*



Slow Drone said:


> If you know so much about AHB than you should know 200 meters still doesn't protect anything or anyone.


Really? Tell me then... What IS a good protective distance, according to you.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: Ignore Option*

It befuddles me as to why some don't just get on here and straight out ask their questions instead of trying to impress everyone and make it sound like they already know what they are doing, and then continue to dig their own holes deeper with every post. You are only fooling yourself with this approach.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

*Re: Ignore Option*



NaturesResonance said:


> Really? Tell me then... What IS a good protective distance, according to you.


If you have beekeeping experience in AZ you should already have the answer to that. Seems to me your experience comes from reading and not doing.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

*Re: Ignore Option*

Slow Drone,

You're not fooling anyone. You don't have the answer because it's not a fixed parameter. This is another reason I take everything with a big grain of salt. People act like they know the answer to things that don't really have an easy answer.

It depends on everything from wind speed and direction, to the temperature. Hell, is it raining or is it cloudy? 

200 meters is a pretty big buffer zone...


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

*Re: Ignore Option*

You're right it's not a fixed parameter therefore there is no buffer zone. You still have evaded the question of your beekeeping experience years, months, weeks, days? You're not fooling anyone there are members who have responded to this thread that are commercial beekeepers you've not fooled them either. You've bitten off more than you can chew here.


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## Rcurtis31 (Feb 22, 2017)

*Re: Ignore Option*

Wow. I smell a viral video on YouTube, in Natty's future. Title: "Hippy Gets Gonads Stung Off."


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

Holy honey! I'm in the midst of "Commercial beekeepers"! The same guys that spread diseases across entire oceans? The same guys that will sacrifice their bee's so they can turn a profit? Well I better strap on my thinking cap because I'm way out of my league. 

It doesn't change the fact you just told me, I'm right. It gives me hope that I'm on the right track.


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## Rcurtis31 (Feb 22, 2017)

NaturesResonance said:


> Holy honey! I'm in the midst of "Commercial beekeepers"! The same guys that spread diseases across entire oceans? The same guys that will sacrifice their bee's so they can turn a profit? Well I better strap on my thinking cap because I'm way out of my league.
> 
> It doesn't change the fact you just told me, I'm right. It gives me hope that I'm on the right track.


Buddy you're one of those mite bomb makers that are the real problem. Eco-terrorist.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

Rcurtis31 said:


> Buddy you're one of those mite bomb makers that are the real problem. Eco-terrorist.


:lpf:


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Lburou said:


> Troll.


Without a doubt!


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

NaturesResonance said:


> All creatures can be taught behavioral traits.


I think you're on to something. I was at a carnival once and saw a flea circus. Those little fleas were amazing. I think you could likely teach Africanized bees not to be aggressive. I wouldn't even wear a veil if I were you. 

Do you have a video camera?


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

NaturesResonance said:


> Holy honey! I'm in the midst of "Commercial beekeepers"! The same guys that spread diseases across entire oceans? The same guys that will sacrifice their bee's so they can turn a profit? Well I better strap on my thinking cap because I'm way out of my league.
> 
> It doesn't change the fact you just told me, I'm right. It gives me hope that I'm on the right track.


Don't have a parade yet you're wrong thinking a buffer zone of 200 meters is sufficient. Couple of people have inquired about your experience with bees and you still dodge the answer why is that? Dealing with AHB you need more than hope. Talking smack about commercial beekeepers is enough to show you know nothing about beekeeping.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

Slow Drone said:


> Don't have a parade yet you're wrong thinking a buffer zone of 200 meters is sufficient. Couple of people have inquired about your experience with bees and you still dodge the answer why is that? Dealing with AHB you need more than hope. Talking smack about commercial beekeepers is enough to show you know nothing about beekeeping.


You're right. Entire nations of beekeepers are also wrong. Brazil, South Africa, Honduras, etc. Are those beekeepers with decades of experience also wrong? 

Oh but my years of experience, or lack-there of, is what tells you how much I know. 
Knowledge and experience are two separate things, agreed. My lack of experience doesn't mean I'm not able to apply what I know. I've accomplished far greater things than managing a hot hive.

200 meters is plenty. Give a reason why it's not a big enough buffer.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

NaturesResonance your lack of knowledge shows your lack of experience it"s obvious. Only experienced knowledgeable beekeepers has what it takes to safely deal with AHB keep that in mind before you attempt to play beekeeper.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> Oh but my years of experience, or lack-there of, is what tells you how much I know.
> Knowledge and experience are two separate things, agreed. My lack of experience doesn't mean I'm not able to apply what I know. I've accomplished far greater things than managing a hot hive.


I say have at it NaturesReverberation. Go for it!

How fitting and from 1709 no less:

"A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.
Fired at first sight with what the Muse imparts,
In fearless youth we tempt the heights of Arts ;
While from the bounded level of our mind
Short views we take, nor see the lengths behind,
But, more advanced, behold with strange surprise
New distant scenes of endless science rise !
So pleased at first the towering Alps we try,
Mount o’er the vales, and seem to tread the sky ;
The eternal snows appear already past,
And the first clouds and mountains seem the last ;
But those attained, we tremble to survey
The growing labours of the lengthened way ;
The increasing prospect tires our wandering eyes,
Hill peep o’er hills, and Alps on Alps arise !"
Alexander Pope 1709


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

NaturesResonance said:


> Nature provides the bee. All you need to do is keep it. If you find wild bee's to be unmanageable, you're the one with the problem, not the bees. I plan on keeping the wild bee's I catch, and finding ways to manage their behavior. All creatures can be taught behavioral traits. Even the African ones.


What has already been told to you and since you are hard to get to listen I will try again -

"NaturesResonance your lack of knowledge shows your lack of experience it"s obvious. Only experienced knowledgeable beekeepers has what it takes to safely deal with AHB keep that in mind before you attempt to play beekeeper."


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

clyderoad said:


> I say have at it NaturesReverberation. Go for it!
> 
> How fitting and from 1709 no less:
> 
> ...


Thank you clyde! Finally, some encouragement. I know I'm probably going to make mistakes along the way. Every mistake is just an opportunity to learn even more.

Slow drone, 
I'll send you my first jar of Africanized honey if you promise to eat your words.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Mmm one for the Darwin Awared


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

NaturesResonance said:


> Thank you clyde! Finally, some encouragement. I know I'm probably going to make mistakes along the way. Every mistake is just an opportunity to learn even more.
> 
> Slow drone,
> I'll send you my first jar of Africanized honey if you promise to eat your words.


Have plenty of my own thank you.


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## gruntworker (May 20, 2013)

NaturesResonance said:


> Thank you clyde! Finally, some encouragement. I know I'm probably going to make mistakes along the way. Every mistake is just an opportunity to learn even more.
> 
> 
> You have to at least acknowledge the experience here. They know more than you and they are trying to give you perspective.
> ...


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## Rcurtis31 (Feb 22, 2017)

NaturesResonance said:


> You're right. Entire nations of beekeepers are also wrong. Brazil, South Africa, Honduras, etc. Are those beekeepers with decades of experience also wrong?
> 
> Oh but my years of experience, or lack-there of, is what tells you how much I know.
> Knowledge and experience are two separate things, agreed. My lack of experience doesn't mean I'm not able to apply what I know. I've accomplished far greater things than managing a hot hive.
> ...


Knowledge and and experience makes wisdom. Knowledge with out wisdom is dangerous. If one has knowledge and no experience they had better talk to (not at) those who have experience. Secondhand experience is better than nothing. Or as my Daddy used to say, "If ya don't have any respect and ya don't listen people who done it before yer an idiot." Fear (respect) is the beginning of wisdom.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Let the bees do the talking. Africanized bees can be managed and they can produce honey. What I am wondering is when NR will figure out that he can't use Langstroth hives. http://www.rupertshoney.com/why-a-new-hive/


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

*Re: Ignore Option*

I read somewhere yesterday that austraila had more deaths from bees then from snakes.
Cheers
gww


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

*Re: Ignore Option*

My 83 year old mentor keeps some hot hives, he takes them out to his apiary which is very, very secluded in the foothills and let's the calm hives he has mellow them out over time, he probably adds a few hot hives to his two hundred every year. He does destroy some though, I don't know how he decides, probably convenience and size.
He doesn't build a hive over three boxes. 
From helping my mentor and other beekeeping pals who have big feral calories in the foothills between riverside and orange counties, they generally limit the hot hives to a few but they keep them and they limit their size for a lot of reasons including temperament.
I have three very good beekeepers all with 80-200 hives in similar areas with feral bees who are maintaining great numbers and production year after year even in drought with some Americanized bees in the mix. None of these apiaries are close to people or development and non suited beekeepers are obviously forbidden.
I wouldn't keep anything remotely hot in a neighborhood or nearby any development. You can keep hot hives in complete isolation, but not everyone has that ability.
I have a satellite apiary with about 25 acres separation between the hives and the nearest neighbor to the north and nothing but public land and empty property in the other three directions. I would keep a small hot hive, I would not let it get over two 8 frame deeps or a deep and medium 10 frame for manageability. I would post warnings too.


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## Michaeljp86 (May 19, 2016)

*Re: Ignore Option*

I talked to a large beekeeper who is in it for mostly honey and rents hives for pollination. He has over 1200 hives and takes them to florida in the winter, He said he does keep africanized bees. Im not a big fan of the idea of hauling this bees to my area. 

My bees are hot enough, if you have open skin their radar goes off and they are all over it. My first hive was just as gentle as could be. Not sure what happened.


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## swarmtrap (Jan 14, 2017)

*Re: Ignore Option*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAZ0thZEypw


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## Rcurtis31 (Feb 22, 2017)

*Re: Ignore Option*

Never had dealings with African bees but as I understand it the pure African are not nearly as bad as the hybrid African European are. And the first generation is the worst. But as I said I'm just going on what I've heard.


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

You can requeen. She probably will get killed. The best thing if you want to keep them is to keep the size of your hive small. Never let it get two deep. try using only supers or a deep and a super. mediums are best. I have some in double deeps and some in supers only. Some are alot meaner than others. Use them for resources. Drawn frames or nurse bees to create nucs from and install new queen in the nucs. Also good pollen collectors.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

I'm building kenyan top bars for a number of reasons. One, they involve less disturbance of the hive. No separating, lifting, or setting boxes down equals less banging around. Two, they don't provide as much exposure when you open them. It's provides a smaller opening when the bars aren't separated by empty space. That affords more control over entering and exiting over the top. Three, they're cheap and easy to build. I will also be hanging them from trees or wooden frames, so they aren't easily disturbed by thieves. Pulley systems, locked anchors, locked tops, etc. 

I'm still searching for the best habitat for an apiary. I like the idea of starting with one up a mountain in National forest and another one on state trust land in the valley somewhere. I would like to see the difference in behavior from one elevation to another. I think it may afford some more flexibility when it comes to seasons or temperament. It's not hard to find open land in Arizona. The hardest part is finding water and filing out the paperwork for a permit. 

I bought the biggest smoker Dadant sells. I will be burning lots of Creosote because it kills Varroa. I'll be making smudge sticks to set around the apiary when I visit. 

I will always don a full ventilated suit with European hood. A billed-hat on under the hood to stop it from collapsing on my face. Under the hat I will drape a headband or towel so they don't get the back of my head or neck. Jeans and long sleeve shirt underneath. For gloves I will still need to find the best choice. I'm looking for thick leather with superb stitching but it's hard to find. I may be going with an insulated cloth, even though I hate having sweaty hands. Honestly, I'm going to be sweating my butt off even though it's a ventilated suit. I'm okay with that. I was even thinking of possible ways to safely integrate a Camelbak so I don't dehydrate out in the desert sun. 

I usually think things through for a long time before I do them. Especially when they involve an element of risk like keeping Scutellata. I've seen people with little to no experience that can manage them, with far less in terms or resources or knowledge than I. I've also heeded the advice of many experienced beekeepers. I think of wisdom a little differently because I'm a teacher. I think of it like I think of praxis. It's the successful application of a theory that leads to liberation of the mind. Think of knowledge like the second dimension. Sure, I know tons of academic "stuff", but until I apply the things I know, I'm not experiencing the third dimension of learning. I'm not wise, but I've seen guys with 20 years of experience that aren't exactly wise all the time. In fact, I've seen guys with tons of experience that are just downright foolish.


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## Rcurtis31 (Feb 22, 2017)

I'm a teacher as well. You must be a humanities teacher. And a drinker.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

Rcurtis31 said:


> I'm a teacher as well. You must be a humanities teacher. And a drinker.


 I teach paramedics and I only drink when I'm thirsty.


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## Rcurtis31 (Feb 22, 2017)

NaturesResonance said:


> I teach paramedics and I only drink when I'm thirsty.


AP Calc here and I drink when necessary as well. I hope it doesn't become necessary more often for ya, bless your heart.


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

I also live in Arizona and seem to be having problems finding land legally to place hives on. You must be in a different section of this state.


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## vtbeeguy (Jun 10, 2016)

NR. You mentioned that you were still trying to find good gloves to wear. I am a welder so I bought a pair of Tig welding gloves (thin leather yet tough). Only been a beek for a year now so take it with that in mind but they're cheap and have worked very well for me. Best of luck


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## nater37 (Aug 15, 2013)

Dan P said:


> You can requeen. She probably will get killed. The best thing if you want to keep them is to keep the size of your hive small. Never let it get two deep. try using only supers or a deep and a super. mediums are best. I have some in double deeps and some in supers only. Some are alot meaner than others. Use them for resources. Drawn frames or nurse bees to create nucs from and install new queen in the nucs. Also good pollen collectors.


Yes , I have heard of a lot of people say to keep them small, but they are going to swarm and the more they do the less of a chance we are going to have from them taking over our docile hives. As I was saying on my first post; counties here are enforcing the biyearly requeening. Has Arizona beekeepers already giving up on keeping calm hives?


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

Dan,
I just spoke with a guy with National Forest service. He advised me to start scouting for potential sites. It's legit.


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

Nater37. Some of us try to keep domesticated hives cause they are nicer to work with but I have met several that gave up and produce a lot of honey and you can keep them small and prevent swarming but you'll end up with a lot of hives when your done.


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

Nature. What forest section are you in? Prescott natl told me NO.


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## Scitfrostbite (Aug 15, 2015)

Rcurtis31 said:


> I'm a teacher as well. You must be a humanities teacher. And a drinker.


High school teacher here, must admit to a drink or two but only beer, wine, or spirits.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

Coronado NF here. It's a national mandate that falls under a "Special Use Permit". 
Did they say why, not? Cattle graze on NF land. Why wouldn't they allow pollination?


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

Something about native pollinators. I just think they didnt want to bother. So I am constantly looking. Most people want to save the bees as long as they are not on there property.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

I've heard of some denials because of that too. I haven't seen empirical evidence of it though. The concerns are that they drive out bumblebees. I guess it just depends on who's managing the district...


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## nater37 (Aug 15, 2013)

I think you guys should start a new thread. I started this one talking about hot hives in my area and these counties making us requeen and have paperwork. Don't really have a clue how it ended up in Arizona and national forest or yet alone teaching a bee to role a ball


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## zackcarp (Jun 4, 2012)

I have messed with a fair share of AHB hives. Sure they are manageable. Countries that are reverting to them are completely changing their tactics from conventional beekeeping, but that is because they don't have a choice. As for 200 meters, I would use at least 1/4 mile. I choose to keep my bees docile because I love my family being involved and for other safety reasons. Docile bees are not hard to keep here in Arizona. Docile Queens are more available to us here in the US than they are in other places of central and south America. To each his own.


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## Jason A (Mar 28, 2016)

nater37 said:


> We've got a lot of new beekeepers in our area that are real gung-ho about keeping bees but they've been catching swarms and doing splits off these hives that are really hot and fixing to cause us some major issues here in this area. About 2 hours south of here they have County ordinances that are making them requeen hives every 6 months and have paperwork on these Queens making sure they come from a reputable breeder.
> 
> We have had confirmed africanized bees here since 2007 by Arizona State University. I've had to kill 3 booming hives just because they're so dangerous I'm afraid of the liability and I've talked to a few guys down in Canyon,Texas and a few in Amarillo have the same kind of problem but they're not taking care of it.These mean hives killed 2 people in a area 4 hours from here last year. Any advice what to do before this thing gets really out of hand?


That's a tough one. I have one really hot hive but dang they produce some honey. I have a new house that's being built about 150 ft from 13 hives. There hasn't been an issue yet except that one roofer got stung twice. However, as it warms up I'm getting nervous.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

I owned two ranches in Arizona. One was 56,000 acres in Prescott area. The other was in the Hereford area and the Mexican border was the Southern boundary. 40 acres was all I owned in Prescott and the rest was Prescott Nat Forest grazing permit and BLM ground. All BLM, State and Forest ground has cattle grazing permits. We paid annually to raise cattle. We rode every square inch of it. We developed water resources and maintained the fences. 
I can tell you now that your chance of putting a yard of aggressive bees on ground that cowboys are riding is ludicrous. The range manager has to ride that same ground every year. If we were to lose one calf to your bee you wouldn't have any bees. Treat your bees the same way we treated bears and lions. If a cowboy got ate up with your bees we would own you and we would be pressing charges for negligent homicide. If a government agency allowed you to put dangerous bees on the ground they make us work and maintain then they would be accepting the liability as well. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Its public land. Anybody can go anywhere on it. We could not lock gates or deny access in any way.
Your liability alone is so high its not even worth doing. 
And remember your still in the wild west when it comes to some of them oldtimers that own ranches in AZ. I know some that would shoot you and bury you if one of their men got hurt because of your lack of intelligence. How can you have a 200 meter buffer zone on public land. 
You dont know squat about bees and you surely dont know squat about public land and the agencies that controi them. 
We had a mean cow with a calf and we knew she was ornery. A citizens dog chased the cow and the cow won the fight and gored the dog. The Coronado Nat Forest let us know in no uncertain terms the animal had to be destroyed because of liability and danger to the public.
You wont listen to solid advise. Probably kept burning your fingers when your mom told you the stove was hot too. So go ahead and at the minimum make a fool of yourself and worst case go to prison or die because your to dumb to listen to others.
Just be thankful your students do not have your attitude or you would be out of a job.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

Hillbillybees said:


> I owned two ranches in Arizona. One was 56,000 acres in Prescott area. The other was in the Hereford area and the Mexican border was the Southern boundary. 40 acres was all I owned in Prescott and the rest was Prescott Nat Forest grazing permit and BLM ground. All BLM, State and Forest ground has cattle grazing permits. We paid annually to raise cattle. We rode every square inch of it. We developed water resources and maintained the fences.
> I can tell you now that your chance of putting a yard of aggressive bees on ground that cowboys are riding is ludicrous. The range manager has to ride that same ground every year. If we were to lose one calf to your bee you wouldn't have any bees. Treat your bees the same way we treated bears and lions. If a cowboy got ate up with your bees we would own you and we would be pressing charges for negligent homicide. If a government agency allowed you to put dangerous bees on the ground they make us work and maintain then they would be accepting the liability as well. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Its public land. Anybody can go anywhere on it. We could not lock gates or deny access in any way.
> Your liability alone is so high its not even worth doing.
> And remember your still in the wild west when it comes to some of them oldtimers that own ranches in AZ. I know some that would shoot you and bury you if one of their men got hurt because of your lack of intelligence. How can you have a 200 meter buffer zone on public land.
> ...


The bees are already there! What makes you think, keeping them there, increases any risk? I can easily make the argument that a beekeeper can do a better job of managing the bees. What is the forest service doing to manage the population of bees? What are ranchers doing to manage the bees? I'll bet you a years wage they haven't accomplished a **** thing to curb the population or their range. Keeping them equates to managing their population and their range. It equates to a greater amount of control over where they forage and what they forage on. A beekeeper can put warning signs to mitigate risk to the public. When was the last time a rancher or ranger put up a sign to warn the public. A beekeeper can catch swarms that would otherwise be establishing hives wherever they **** well pleased. The BLM has been giving out permits for apiaries for a long time, for good reason. They're wildlife that has as much of a right as your cattle have, to exist. Without those bees, your cattle wouldn't have half the variety in their diets. Those mesquite beans they love to get such good protein from... Guess how well that mesquite would do if all the bees disappeared. If you kill bears, lions, or bees, you're destroying an essential part of a diverse ecosystem. What type of animals eat deer? Bears and lions. Guess who you're going to be competing against if you kill those predators. Deer populations will explode like they do in the midwest. 

You seem to agree that everyone deserves to access to public lands. Yet you want to deny access to a beekeeper, based on what? Public safety... How many cattle have gotten loose and ended up being hit by a motorist on a highway, and been injured or even killed? I have personally responded to numerous motor-vehicle collisions that were caused by livestock getting passed a fence. I can guarantee they're responsible for far more deaths than any bees. So don't preach to me about public safety. I study and practice public safety as a career. I know how to make a risk assessment. Stop killing bees, lions, and bears. We need them as much as we need your cattle. Everyone deserves a seat at the table. We can find common ground on public land, but Everyone needs to keep their ego's under control.


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## Jason A (Mar 28, 2016)

Hillbillybees said:


> So go ahead and at the minimum make a fool of yourself


Sounds like you're pretty good at making a fool of yourself as well. When a feral hive kills another "hillbilly" who do you press "negligent homicide" against mother nature? Second, no prosecutor would take such a case considering that it in no way meets the required elements to prove negligent homicide. Now you might have a civil lawsuit but not a criminal case.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Jason A said:


> making a fool of yourself as well. .


This works for JasonA too!


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

I knew you wouldn't listen. Like I said go ahead and put them out there. The different groups online tell the public the hazards. Snakes, bears, lions and now bees have been added to the list to watch out for when in the wild.
Your not going to manage the bees that are already there. Your wanting to bring more bad bees into an area. You think your going to not get swarms from your hives and add to the problem then your dumber than you sound. 
Bad bees kill livestock and have killed people. They need to be taken out. They are not native and the whole goal of the different agencies is to use the land in the best way for the people of the US and to preserve NATIVE animals, bugs and fish.
As much as I tried to be like you I could never teach my cows to read the no trespassing signs. I can promise you if cattle were hit and killed on the road the rancher who owned that brand was liable and had to pay for the damages. 
You are the expert. You have totally proven that. Like I said if they will give you the permit go for it. If you get your truck shot up dont complain. If your hives get burnt just suck it up. If you get sued enjoy the legal fees and smile all the way to bankruptcy. 
Some captions:

PUBLIC LANDS
Policy fight looms as agencies treat honeybee -- a 17th-century import -- as exotic invader.

Vehicles must remain on designated routes. Hazards include poisonous snakes, africanized bees, and potential encounters with illegal users of public lands.

They can chase a person a quarter of a mile (400 m); they have killed some 1,000 humans, with victims receiving ten times more stings than from European honey bees.[2] They have also killed horses and other animals.[3]

They are called killer bees for a reason. Just look up killer bee attack. Arizona calls them a plague. They are an invader commonly called an invasive specie. Domesticated bees are allowed on public lands and a few permits have been given out. Tell the forest service your putting killer bees on the permit and see how far you get.
Thousands of AFB are killed annually in AZ. Look in the phone book for bee control. The state licenses companies to kill them. You want to raise and propagate them. Thats how foolish you are talking. You dont want to just raise them you think you can train them.
I wish you could hear yourself talk. They were not brought here they invaded. They are not domesticated. They are not trainable. They are not safe to the general public. You raise them and propagate them and YOU are not safe to the general public. I have a friend in Mesa AZ who has a pest control license. He averages ten to twelve bee removals a week spring and summer. I know he would let you ride along and do the work under his supervision while he sets in the truck. He has had so many hit his veil that they pushed it in and he got stung in the face. He's a pro and they scare him. 
You wont be in the business long. Law suits will take you out. No more will be said by me to someone so ignorant they wont even consider what they are doing is a public safety issue. Good luck, your going to need it.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Make sense.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

Jason A, Feral hives are not the issue. Putting a known human threat in a public area is the issue.
Jun 23, 2016 - A man was convicted of Criminally Negligent Homicide after his dogs attacked and killed a four year old boy. 

A. Negligent homicide is either of the following:

(1) The killing of a human being by criminal negligence.

(2) The killing of a human being by a dog or other animal when the owner is reckless and criminally negligent in confining or restraining the dog or other animal.

I think most D.A.'s would try the case if they could prove you knew they were dangerous to humans and you intentionally placed them in a public area.

Try to get liability insurance on your AFB colonies. Good luck to you all.


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## NaturesResonance (Mar 8, 2017)

Hillbillybees said:


> I knew you wouldn't listen. Like I said go ahead and put them out there. The different groups online tell the public the hazards. Snakes, bears, lions and now bees have been added to the list to watch out for when in the wild.
> Your not going to manage the bees that are already there. Your wanting to bring more bad bees into an area. You think your going to not get swarms from your hives and add to the problem then your dumber than you sound.
> Bad bees kill livestock and have killed people. They need to be taken out. They are not native and the whole goal of the different agencies is to use the land in the best way for the people of the US and to preserve NATIVE animals, bugs and fish.
> As much as I tried to be like you I could never teach my cows to read the no trespassing signs. I can promise you if cattle were hit and killed on the road the rancher who owned that brand was liable and had to pay for the damages.
> ...


The Smithsonian didn't do a very good job of verifying a reference to the claim of 1000 human deaths. Does the Smithsonian record mortality rates? Do any of their references actually research mortality rates? Because I can guarantee they don't do as much research on mortality rates, as much as the CDC does. The CDC doesn't tally the amount of deaths are attributed to apis mellifera. They lump insect envenomation into the same category. Then, how many of those deaths were indirectly a cause. Like some rancher being being killed when he was kicked from his horse who was being bitten by a hornet. 
Beekeepers domesticate honey bees as much as ranchers domesticate cattle. Cattle are an "invasive species" as much as Europeans American's are to the U.S. "Invasive" is a subjective term like "weed". I could call your cattle an "invasive species. Cattle are not a native species, either. 
Burn a beekeepers hive and you're vandalizing property. You're no better than someone that goes and uses your cattle for target practice. It's just ignorant destruction. Call me negligent? You openly admit being malicious... Look in the mirror.


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## Jason A (Mar 28, 2016)

Hillbillybees said:


> . Law suits will take you out.


 So I guess "prison time" via "negligent homicide" has fallen off the list of disasters headed your way. According to the CDC (http://www.govexec.com/management/2015/08/bees-are-deadliest-non-human-animals-america-cdc/119328/), bees kill about 100 Americans each year. They estimate that over two thirds of those are from people with an allergic reaction. Don't let Bubba scare you with his tails of impending doom and financial ruin. Just pinch the queens, get some new gentle queens in there and move on. Also, Honey Bees aren't native to the Americas regardless of genes.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

Jason A your missing the point. He does not want to pinch the queens. We are not native either. Invasive and non native have a different description. Invasive is the Varroa. Some things we bring into our country to make improvements. Some things invade. 
If he was saying he wanted to pinch queens i would help him if I was close by. He thinks he can train them to be gentle. He wants to propagate more of the nasty little bees. 
He thinks I said I would shoot up his truck or burn his hives. I merely warned him of how some of the old ranchers feel about protecting their property. I have hunted lion and bear off of a fresh calf kill to keep them from killing more. I was protecting my property and I did it all under the depredation laws of the state. 
Join him Jason in trying to train the wild bees. You want him setting up hives close to yours? Answer truthfully. He's your neighbor. Has twenty acres between you and he is raising AFB on purpose. Splitting AFB. Are you a happy camper? Your hiking on Forest land and you come into a clearing and you get hit by 3000 bees that were put there on purpose with no effort other than training them to try and make them co exist with the possible human that would stumble into them. He cannot put up no trespassing signs. He could warn you possibly if you were on a trail.
You would be okay with that? Be honest. You would gladly pay for the helicopter ride and the hospitalization without even a glance at making him responsible for his actions? 
I have no problem leaving feral hives in the wild alone. If they are close to parks they need to be handled. But to bring more into the area? 
Yellowstone takes bears away and tracks them. If they keep coming back they kill them to protect the public. Is this wrong too? 
Also a hundred a year deaths since 78 in AZ. You think 1000 isn't possible in the AFB zones. That says nothing of the attacks. Bisbee AZ was shut down for a whole day because of bees. Should those bees be destroyed? Should people in the area be allowed to raise those bees intentionally? Should anybody be allowed to raise dangerous anything in a place set aside for public use?


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

nater37 said:


> I think you guys should start a new thread. I started this one talking about hot hives in my area and these counties making us requeen and have paperwork. Don't really have a clue how it ended up in Arizona and national forest or yet alone teaching a bee to role a ball


Yes. Because this one is getting close to closing time.


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## nater37 (Aug 15, 2013)

Jason A said:


> So I guess "prison time" via "negligent homicide" has fallen off the list of disasters headed your way. According to the CDC (http://www.govexec.com/management/2015/08/bees-are-deadliest-non-human-animals-america-cdc/119328/), bees kill about 100 Americans each year. They estimate that over two thirds of those are from people with an allergic reaction. Don't let Bubba scare you with his tails of impending doom and financial ruin. Just pinch the queens, get some new gentle queens in there and move on. Also, Honey Bees aren't native to the Americas regardless of genes.


I have not had luck pinching queens in a hot hive much less an African hive. They are very hygienic and ball the queen no matter how long she is in hive other than building a push cage inside hive, but who has time to build 50-100 push cages. So only alternative is get some open brood from good hive and x fingers that queen breeds with good drones. Easier to kill hive and replace with docile bees just my opinion.


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