# Supers with no exposed end grain



## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

What type of glue will you be using? Let us know how they work out.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Vamtjewboy,

I have te same bit and and planning to build my supers and hive bodies in the same way.

I believe that the reason that the commodity supers/bodies do not use this design is that it is very sensitive to any swelling/shrinking/warping of the wood, so a lock mitre joint will not store well or ship well. The joint needs to be glued soon after routing to assure an easy and successful fit.

So for mass production and shipping around the country unssembled, the lock miter joint is probably not the best choice. For us 'do-it-yourselfers' with a router table, on the other hand, it is perfect.

I have a question for you since I am just about to route my first supers. Do you think the joint will be strong enough with glue only and no nails, or do you think it needs to be nailed as well? If you decided to use nails as well, how many nails did you use per joint and in what configuration?

Any tips you have for me to help assure that my first supers built with my new lock router bit come out successfully would be greatly appreciated.

-fafrd


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Hi Fafrd et al, I have built deep and medium supers out of yellow pine and hardwood plywood. All of the materials were 3/4" thick. The plywood came out of a garage, was well cured, flat etc. but was slated for the garbage. I took the plunge and made the boxes with Miter Lock joints. They are now going through their second winter in Kentucky, have only glued joints with no metal fasteners. They are coated on the outside with a Latex primer and Latex house paint. So far we have great results. On the plywood boxes we did not machine hand-holds for fear of de-lamination at these points and so used cleats. In my mind Miter Lock joints are the way to go. How they would work in production and with warped lumber I have no idea. Hope this helps. Take care and have fun


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## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

How it would work with cupped lumber is my big question, I buy alot of cheap lumber, and with my rabbet joint, glue and good size staples as well as the occassional clamp I am able to squeeze about anything into shape. I would like to use a lock miter but not at the cost of having to buy only full price wood...


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Alex,

thanks for the feedback. I've got a bunch of scrap plywood as well (not sure if it is hardwood or not - I believe it is exterior grade) but had thought that use of plywood in the hive body could be a problem due to outgassing.

In any case, your experience encourags me that the lock miter joint can be used with glue only and without any nails, so 'm at least tempted to try it that way until proven that it's a bad idea.

-fafrd


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## Brooklyn (Nov 14, 2009)

Do you have a picture of a completed box?


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## bennybee (Jul 10, 2008)

how many passes do you have to make? your taking out a lot of wood.


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Hello fafrd, brac, brooklyn et al. 
To answer some of your questions, take a look at MLSwoodworking.com and seach for the video on the Miter Lock. I have used that to educate myself on that system. However, I am using a hombuilt router table that works very good and I am running a 2 1/4 hp router that takes 1/2" shanked router bits. At first I used the double sided tape but that became too cumbersome. So, I set the initial cut a bit shallower and now run two or three passes, carfurlly of course. Once you get the hang of it it goes quite fast. You also might consider featherboards. The glue I use is Titebond II or III. I hope that I answered some of your questions. Remember, however, I am just a woodworking and beekeeping hobbyist and so I do think sometime way outside the box. I cannot show you my boxes right now as I am not at home. For more routing information look into some of the woodworking forums. They helped me quite a bit. Take care and have fun.


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Once more on the above subject. I checked to find the correct address for you and the information above seems to be a bit difficult. 
Here is more: www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_lockmiter.html

Hopefully that will help some more. Take care and have fun


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

what about the rabit for the frame rest -how is this incorporated into the joint-so as not to make a thin spot where your hive tool will break out the corner when prying the boxes apart-RDY-B


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Hello RDY-B. What I do is cut the boards to the exact outside dimension. The frame rest can be routed on the router table either before or after cutting the Miter Lock. I cut mine with a 3/4" straigth router bit sticking out from the fence the required 3/8". I mark the ends of the cut with a pencil on the fence. I then plunge the board down near the "upwind" end, move carefully to the mark and then move in the other direction until I reach the other mark. Works for me, hope it does for you. Take care and have fun.


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Hello, well I just wondered if anyone looked at the video and what they think. I was happy to see those prices for the bits as I paid a bit more when I started. Take care and have fun.


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## Brooklyn (Nov 14, 2009)

Alex, 
Thanks,even a person with very little experience with wood working can do that.It also looks like it will hold better then most other joints.:thumbsup:


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Skil has a new Lock Miter bit whch will handle 3/4" material and issignifcanly less expensive than the bits from Freud. I found this bit at Lowe's for less than $30:

http://www.toolorbit.com/Skil/Skil-91703.html

Also, here is another video that gives a good end-view of the joint:

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2142&utm_source=Shoppingdotcom&utm_medium=CSE&utm_campaign=V9122&utm_term=1-3%2f4+Dia.+X+3%2f4+High+x+1%2f2+Shank+45+Degree+Lock+Miter+Router+Bit

-fafrd


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## Brooklyn (Nov 14, 2009)

What type bit do you use to do the frame rales on the inside of the box ?


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Brooklyn,

I do the same as Alex described in an earler post, but I use a 3/8" straght bit to get a bit less rounding in the corner (Alex uses a 3/4" straigt bit, which will result is more rounded inner corners. Also, since I know that I never want my top bars closer than 3/8" from the wall of the hive, I also begin my route 1-1/8" from the outside edge of the joint. I set the bit so that the outside edge is flush with the inside edge of the fence and it has a depth of 5/8 above the table height. Board is then held vertically out from the fence with 1-1/8" clear of the bit so that when the board is pressed into the fence route has cut a channel 3/8" wide (and 5/8" deep) into the thickness of the board beginning 1-1/8" in from the edge. Board is then slid vertically along the fence to within 1-1/8" of the opposite end of the board and then the board is pulled back from the fence to complete the route.

I am still experimenting so see if I am better off doing this in a single pass or multiple passes (as I do with the lock miter joint), but this seems to give me a pretty strong frame rest that does not weaken the lock miter joint.

-fafrd


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Hello again, I am gratified that you have found the videos and some additional info. I am sure that from here there will be some great results coming including some new ideas. Just one little note on any woodworking activities: "Safety is Number One!"
Right now we are remote from our hives but we have a good neighbor who is taking an interest and we are very thankful to him.


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## bennybee (Jul 10, 2008)

Today I got a miter lock joint bit. I ran 30 supers through in a little over 3 hrs., One heck of a faster than box joints. I made 2 passes and it worked out great. The jury is still out on assembly. I assembled one today and used 8 bar clamps. I'm going to try and use fewer clamps and do a bit of nailing. I like the idea of no exposed end grain. I put the cup towards me and kind of rolled it through router and it worked O.K. I'm going to assemble tomorrow. I will let you know how it goes. Any tips?


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Hello Bennybee et al, glad you find this method useful. On assembly, I was amazed on how quick and square the boxes fit together. I do measure diagonally, however, after the clamps are on and sometimes make minor adjustments, thats all. Right now I am still impressed with the photos that Botek sent from Slovenia in the Newcomers section. It is worthwhile to look at as it gives me the reassurance that, if those people who have far less means and opportunity can do it, we sure can do it. Take care and have fun


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

> One heck of a faster than box joints


Glad to hear that I ordered a bit this week thanks to who posted the link for them I had been looking for one with a 1/4" shank.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Honeyman: I don't believe it is available in 1/4 inch shank. Probably a heat issue with the size of the bit. 

I have seen Alex's boxes and a sample joint. I am impressed with it. It is a nice tight joint and looks very professional. Now if I can talk him into doing some for me


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ed, I'd be surprised if you can find that bit with 1/4" shank. Too much surface cutting/pressure for 1/4". Not to rain on anyone's parade, but my gut tells me that this joint won't hold up in time. I've spent many years in woodworking, everything from carpentry to furniture making, and there are two concerns with this joint. The very thin outer edge of the two boards being joined is one, and the fact that you are joining end grain to end grain is another. A joint like this that will work wonderfully in many applications performs quite differently when rain, heat and cold become part of the picture. Time will tell, but my best guess is that once moisture gets into the joint (and it will eventually), the joint will fail much quicker than a box joint.

Keep us posted.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Here is the page I ordered from I hope I didnt waste my $$$

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_lockmiter.html


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Hi Bluegrass, glad that you are showing up here every now and then. Yes, I remember showing you my boxes, no I don't remember promising to build boxes for you....but then I am getting forgetful! In any case I will be glad to do some together with you when spring comes. I too doubt that these bits are available with a 1/4" shank. I believe that the mass of the tool head has something to do with the size of the shank because there must be a point where centrifugal force puts too much stress on the small shanks. BTW how is the bee truck coming? Take care and have fun


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Oh you forgot about them... That explains why the first 100 hasn't showed up yet 

Winter is going good here, my bees are alive and accounted for so far. I am working on getting a trailer hitch made for the back of the truck. The factory hitch is 40 inches off of the ground so I need to come up with a custom job at a lower height.

Give me a call when you get back in town and I will stop by for a beer or two.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Alex Cantacuzene said:


> ... I too doubt that these bits are available with a 1/4" shank.


They are available with 1/4" shanks, but I wouldn't recommend them with less than 1/2" shanks.

Here is a link to MLCS, they have some models of this bit with 1/4" shanks: MLCS Locking Miter Bits


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Hello Joseph, I hang my head in shame, I did not see those bits with the 1/4" shank on that site. Oh well, that blows my theory a to dust, but then again its not the first time. Still am happy that it all generated some interest. Take care and have fun


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Could happen to anyone. I'd heard of these bits, and was planning to eventually give them a try. I like to try most things for myself before I make any solid decisions. I obtained several very nice routers and a nice router table, so I could try different ways of working with wood, but I had almost forgotten about my plans to try these lock miter joints. I greatly appreciate this thread, and its initiator, for reminding me.

My first router came with a mandrel for 1/4" shank bits. Many bits I could only find with 1/2" shanks. My solution was to obtain an adapter. Now I could put bits with 1/2" shanks into my 1/4" router. It worked, but I am glad I purchased two more routers, both capable of 1/2" shank bits. I also obtained an adapter that permits using 1/4" shank bits in a 1/2" router. Now, I only use the proper shank size in the appropriate router.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

brac said:


> What type of glue will you be using? Let us know how they work out.


I seal all of the end grain on my assemblies with a nice fat coat of _Titebond III glue. At that point there is no "exposed end grain".

To speed up assembly, I would glue up the lock-joint pieces in sets, one end piece and one side squared up nicely and I would skip installing any fasteners until the entire box is assembled and cured. I would take the time to fill the outside and inside of the corner joints with Titebond III. I also seal over the heads of any screws or nails with a dab of glue.

I have not seen anyone mention using West System Epoxy on Beesource... while it will add to the cost, it will also give you boxes that will not come apart at the corners. IMO, Titebond III would do a fine job.



_


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## Ishi (Sep 27, 2005)

I have a MLCS locking miter with a ¼ shaft, you need to use a speed control and slow the rim speed down. It works well on pine with one pass but I would not want to use ¾ hard wood with it. It takes a while and lots of scrap to set it up. If set up properly you make one side on edge and the other side flat on the table. You must make each full cut in one pass.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Okay, I got one of these Lock Miter bits from my local Lowe's for $28 + tax. It is a Skil model 91703 with 1/2" shank. I cut some 3/4" thick boards to the appropriate lengths (19-7/8" and 13-3/4"), then I trimmed a few small pieces from the same stock lumber to use in setting up the cutter. After it appeared to be adjusted correctly I marked where the cuts were to be made, then clamped guide strips onto the boards for each cut. It was tedious but made it possible for me to keep the boards lined-up properly without my hands getting anywhere near the moving cutter. Then I cut the rabbet for the frame rests, glued everything together with Titebond III and clamped it. I plan to see how durable these joints are without fasteners.

When I cut the pieces which are fed standing on end, some small pieces of the joint profile are knocked out, here and there, but it doesn't look like it will be enough to make any difference in the integrity of the joint.

My first box, made using the Lock Miter bit looks nice, I am anxious to put it into use to see how it wears.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I just built a router table a couple weeks ago, to make grooves in my screened bottom boards.

Thanks for another good use for the table.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Joseph Clemens said:


> When I cut the pieces which are fed standing on end, some small pieces of the joint profile are knocked out, here and there, but it doesn't look like it will be enough to make any difference in the integrity of the joint.


I've been doing two passes for the vertical cuts. My router table makes it easy to set the fence forward by 1/16", 1/8", or 1/4". Two passes is a little bit more work but avoids the knockouts.



Joseph Clemens said:


> glued everything together with Titebond III and clamped it. I plan to see how durable these joints are without fasteners.


I'm using Titebond II and have never used Titebond III. Do you have experience with both and do you think III is enough better than II to justify the extra cost?


Welcome to the lock-miter-joint club, Joseph 

-fafrd

p.s. I am using the same Skil bit from Lowe's


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Thanks for the tip, my router table will also make those adjustments easily possible. I will try dual passes at incremental depths for the vertical cuts on my next super.

I was using polyurethane glue, but when I decided to use coated deck screws I intentionally stopped using glue, entirely. I have not used Titebond II, only Titebond III, so I cannot address any possible differences in them. Since I stopped using deck screws, I figure I can afford Titebond III. My first two bottles where gifted to me from a friend. I liked it, so that is what I have been using, especially once I read the woodworking glue reviews, how Titebond performed better than Polyurethane.

My first Lock-Miter-Jointed 8-frame medium super, with cleats and Old Style Metal Frame Rest Rabbets looks so darn good. I hope it performs half as good as it looks; if it does, it will be worth all the extra effort.

I can't really get to making too many supers with these joints, no matter how much I prefer them, since I have enough pre-cut medium super sides which are cut with finger joints. I have enough of these pieces to make three hundred supers (six hundred pieces). I've been making them up by cutting end pieces to length, then cutting 3/8" deep rabbets on three sides, once I trim 3/8" off the fingers of the side pieces I can then clamp and deck screw the supers together. I do plan to make an attempt to use the Lock-Miter bit with these finger-jointed super sides to see how well they will function when used this way.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Joseph,

Don't quite understand how a 3/8" rabbet fits against the fingers, even after you've trimmed 3/8" off of them - doesn't that leave 3/8" x 3/4" rectangular holes on the side that are 3/4" deep? I guess it doesn't provide an air passage all the way to the interior of the super, but it seems like with a little warpage or a cut being the slighest bit off, you're going to have gaps.

Are you doing this just because you had already committed the 600 sides to finger joints and then changed direction because you found the rabbet+deck screw solution easier?

-fafrd

p.s. Aside from the 50% premium in cost, the other concern I had about Titebond III was the drying time - how long do you typically let your joints set before you remove the clamps?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

These six hundred medium super sides are what remains of a gift (there were several hundred more, but I've already used them to make supers and nucs), the sides were with them for ten frame supers, but many of the end pieces were damaged beyond use so I've been making up end pieces to complete some of the remaining supers.

With a 3/4" wide and 3/8" deep rabbet cut into the end pieces on three sides all I need to do is trim off the fingers so they are only 3/8" long, they then fit perfectly into the rabbets. Sometimes there are a few of them that show a tiny crack of an opening (gaps) where the area between the fingers meets the rabbets of the end pieces (a pinch of sawdust and a drop of glue takes care of these).

I plan to use the Lock Miter bit on these fingers and, at least one set of end pieces to see if this will make better completed boxes than the ones I've made using rabbeted end pieces.

The side pieces are already cut with fingers, and I just don't like the finger joints, while finishing the boxes with rabbets is easier and quicker.

-------------------
Strange for me, but I hadn't done my shopping well enough to notice the cost difference in these two products; Titebond II and Titebond III. I did have the experience of having used the two free bottles of Titebond III that were gifted to me, and I liked how they performed. I hadn't thought, until your question, if Titebond II would suit my purposes as well. I will likely purchase a bottle to try it and see.

I usually remove the clamps in just an hour or two (sometimes sooner), and that hasn't been a problem, they seem to be set quite well by then.


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Hi guys, I am glad that someone is using the Miter Lock method now (I have no connection with any commercial interests in this. I just think that it is the thing to use). I somewhat felt a little out in left field when I first suggested it. How this method will work for someone with a large number of boxes to make I don't know. For my hobby approach I think it is the best thing since sliced bread but then that's just me. I hope it works for you in the larger operation with long lasting boxes. Take care and have fun


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Strange for me, but I hadn't done my shopping well enough to notice the cost difference in these two products; Titebond II and Titebond III. I did have the experience of having used the two free bottles of Titebond III that were gifted to me, and I liked how they performed. I hadn't thought, until your question, if Titebond II would suit my purposes as well. I will likely purchase a bottle to try it and see.
> 
> I usually remove the clamps in just an hour or two (sometimes sooner), and that hasn't been a problem, they seem to be set quite well by then.


Titenond III is 2-3 times thecost of Titebond II. It is 'waterproof' instead of only 'water-resistant', so for those beeks collectin the pollen off of corals using bees with little scuba tanks, it's probably the only choice ! (while Titebond II seems to handle the rain pretty well for the rest of us). The set time on Titebond II is also shorter - 30 minutes versus 2 hours, I believe. If you do get around to trying Titebond II, I'd be interested in how you compare the two. I was thinking of tring a bottle of Titebond III when my current bottle of Titebond II runs out - maybe you'll have som thoughts on how they compare by then...

-fafrd

p.s. when you cut back 3/4"x3/4"x3/4" fingers to 3/8"x3/4"x3/4" and then tuck them into a 3/4"x3/8"x6-5/8" rabbet, I can see how it fits - it's just that there are also several 3/4"x3/4"x3/4" spaces between the fingers, and after cutback, these spaces are reduced to 3/8"x3/4"x3/4", but they are still there and do not get filled by the rabbet. Am I missing something?


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Alex Cantacuzene said:


> Hi guys, I am glad that someone is using the Miter Lock method now (I have no connection with any commercial interests in this. I just think that it is the thing to use). I somewhat felt a little out in left field when I first suggested it. How this method will work for someone with a large number of boxes to make I don't know. For my hobby approach I think it is the best thing since sliced bread but then that's just me. I hope it works for you in the larger operation with long lasting boxes. Take care and have fun


The lock miter joint works great if you are making just one box, and I don't think it is any more work than making a single box joint using a dado set with a decent table saw (and maybe even a bit less work). A dado joint is certainly easier to cut than either, but it's the least convenient to square up and it seems like it is not going to be as strong as either the lock miter or the box joint.

The one big advantage the box joint has is if you are going to build several/many boxes at once. I've never built a box-joint super yet, but I suspect that the finger cuts made by the dado blade can be made into many sides clamped together at once. I'm sure the bee shops have it fully automated, but even for the serious sideliner, I'm pretty sure any decent wood worker could build 100 box-joint supers in the same time he could build 10 lock-miter joint supers. The miter joint is inherently a one-at-a-time operation, but it is self-squaring so it glues up very easily, it gives a beautiful and stong joint, and for hobbiests who only build one or two boxes at time, it is probably easier than a box joint. The bee shops are going to stick to box joints and dado joints because they are more suited to low-cost mass production and automation - for us hobbiests who don't have too many hives and also enjoy woodworking, I agree with you that the lock-miter joint is the best thing since sliced bread!

-fafrd


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

fafrd said:


> p.s. when you cut back 3/4"x3/4"x3/4" fingers to 3/8"x3/4"x3/4" and then tuck them into a 3/4"x3/8"x6-5/8" rabbet, I can see how it fits - it's just that there are also several 3/4"x3/4"x3/4" spaces between the fingers, and after cutback, these spaces are reduced to 3/8"x3/4"x3/4", but they are still there and do not get filled by the rabbet. Am I missing something?


Yep, after assembly there are definitely gaps where there weren't any fingers before the fingers that be are shortened, and on top of everything else, those gaps expose end grain.

Okay, maybe I'll reconsider cutting matching end pieces, with box joint fingers, for my remaining side pieces, I have, after all, already created a sled for my table saw that simplifies making these cuts with my dado stack. It's just so much more time-consuming than the simplicity of the rabbets and trimming off the fingers. But, you're correct, it definitely compromises my completed supers to do it that way.

I will get a bottle of Titebond II on Tuesday (2Mar), then try it out to see how it does for me.


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Hello Fafrd et al, when I started making boxes I did blind dovetails that I still like too. I have no experience with making finger joints or box joints except that we have a few old boxes with them that were given to us. The things that always kept me from trying to make finger joints is that I have only a simple, small table saw. These things have a short saw shaft and so a 3/4" dado blade will not fit. Yes, on a bigger saw one can gang the pieces and speed things up. However, I have also heard that just a small interfering chip can throw the spacing off and then accumulate that error to the end which then will require a ripping operation to adjust the box height. And then there was a post here where someone suffered some serious finger damage doing finger joints. Finally, there is the end grain exposure but that horse has been beaten enough. You are totally right that what we are doing with Miter Locks lends itself better to hobbyists. Who knows though? Take care and have fun


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Joseph,

didn't mean to imply you should think aout doing it diferently -just wanted to make sure I understood what you were doing (which I do now - thanks).

let me know what you think about TiteBond II - I was in Home Depot last night and saw that TiteBond III cost only 40% more than TiteBond II ($7 versus $5 for 16 ounces) so I went ahead and picked up some TiteBond III - will let you know what I think when I have had chance to use it.


Alex,

never actualy tried to make a box joint before and if what you are saying about a small chip throwing things off and accumulating errors is correct, your just making feel a whole lot more confident about my gut feeling regarding the complexity of box joints versus lock-miter joints for the onesy-twosy home hobbiest (at least for those of us who have router tables ).

For the commercial outfits, I am sure it is fully automoated so that those kind of issues are avoided, and between the higher degree of parallelism (meaning lower cost of manufacturing) as well as the lower tolerances (meanin easier storability and shippability), I don't think we are likely to ever see lock miter joints from the commercial outfits.

Both of you (and anyone else),

are you using your router tables to form your frame rests? I am and I really like the way it comes out - leaves a full 3/4" thick board for the first 1" so the top corner is much stronger - and while it i pretty easy to do by hand, I am thinking about making a jig so it is even easier and faster. How are you both doing it and if you are using a jig, how is it designed:scratch:?

-fafd


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Good morning guys, I am right now in chilly Florida (33F) this morning just a few miles north of Tampa, unbelievable. So I am staying longer at the computer in the mornings. I agree that Miter Locked boxes may not appear in the commercial picture ever. However, somewhere I saw a guy do some routing on a router table with an automated feeder, both horizontal and vertical and that went pretty fast. Of course it is an investement that not many are willing to make. I use my home-made router table that I built to "Shop Notes" and is a pretty solid piece of equipment. It is a few years old and I would build it differenet today with such amenities as adjusting the router from the top etc. 
I am not sure about the boxes that you were repairing with finger joints and rabbets etc. I just have this picture in mind that if I would have to do something like that I would cut the box apart right in the middle. Rout one of the sawn ends with a Miter Lock and add a new piece also routed that way flat, flip it over and glue it together. Later on cut to exact length and make the nex box with it using one new and one old piece. In other words, Miter Lock lets you lengthen a board that will be pretty strong. Just my thinking on this......Take care and have fun.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Alex Cantacuzene said:


> However, somewhere I saw a guy do some routing on a router table with an automated feeder, both horizontal and vertical and that went pretty fast.


Even automated with a feeder, the lock-miter joint is still inherently a one-at-a-time manufacturing process, where I'll bet the box joints are cut 10 or 20 at a time by the pros. It's just fundamentally a more expensive joint to make on commercial scale, and as they say: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it..."




Alex Cantacuzene said:


> I would cut the box apart right in the middle. Rout one of the sawn ends with a Miter Lock and add a new piece also routed that way flat, flip it over and glue it together. Later on cut to exact length and make the nex box with it using one new and one old piece. In other words, Miter Lock lets you lengthen a board that will be pretty strong.


I've never glued one up yet, but I have routed and fitted the flat joint and I think you have a good idea (for Joseph). Cut off 100% of the fingers on both ends, put a horizontal lock miter joint on both ends of that 18-3/8"" long board, glue another horizontal 18-3/8" horizontal lock miter board to this first one to make a single board 36-3/4" long. Cut that 36-3/4" long board (after the glue has set) to 19-7/8" and put another lock miter joint on the cut end so you have one side of the box finished. The leftover board piece is about 16-3/4" long (allowing for saw kerf) - trim it to 16-1/4" and put vertical lock-miter joints on either end so yo have one end of the box finished.

In this way, 2 19-7/8" finger-joint boards can be used to make one 19-7/8" side piece with a horizontal lock-miter joint and one 16-1/4" end piece with a vertical lock-miter joint.

Cutting off the ends is no more work and probably easier that the rabbets, so the trade-off is cutting and gluing the extra lock miter joint versus how much cleaner the end result will be. Joseph, what do you think?

For those of us with lock miter router tables but without Joseph's excess stock of finger-joint box sides, the same idea could be used to eliminate knots and extend boards. I've been struggling with optimizing the number of sides I can get out of a board versus trying to position the sides so that I end up with a 'select' box (no knots). For the cost of an additional lock miter joint, any knot can easily be eliminated by using the flat joint. The same thing can of course be done horizontally on the board, but that is much, much less efficient, reduces the height of the board below 11-1/4" rather than shorten its length and frankly, does not look like it is worth the trouble.

Have you tried to use the horizontal joint yet, Alex?

-fafrfd


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Good morning again fafrd et al. As I said, I am remote at present from my bees and the woodworking operation. No, I have not tried the horizontal joint with Lock Miter. It might be a challenge and I will try it when the time comes. I will question the reasoning behind a horizontal joint as there are some things to consider: Value of the product in relation to time (I have qualify here as time is of very little importance to me, other than the achievement of satisfaction of having a good product.) However, I have widened boards with butt joints and Buiscuts that were looking good and so far have held up. The other thing I would consider is the life time of the cutter edge on long cuts vs. the cost of another board. Another consideration would be the remoteness to the wood source.That does not apply to me but it could if I was living in the Outback or so. In any case, someday I will try it and will report on it. Take care and have fun


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Once more, the other day there was a mention of routing the frame rests. I do rout the frame rests carefully on the router table. I am not sure right now, but I think I use a 3/4" straight bit, extending 5/8" above the table. The fence is set back 3/8". Before I start cutting I make pencil marks on the fence for the beginning and the end. With the board vertical, I then plunge near one marked end, carefully run it to the mark and then rout it to the other mark and take the board away or stop the router with that big safety switch. I have no problems with that little radius in the corners, I take it out with a chisel of leave it as the top of the frames have a small corner cut there anyway. Excuse my long windedness, I write with ten fingers and only look at the screens and then the words flow. Take care and have fun


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Alex Cantacuzene said:


> No, I have not tried the horizontal joint with Lock Miter.


My apologies Alex, I made a typo (or used the language in a confusing manner). The horizontal lock miter joint (to increase board height) makes little sense, as I indicated in my post. I meant to ask if you have used the lock miter joint to make a 'flat' joint to extend the length of a board, as you suggested to Joseph.

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Alex Cantacuzene said:


> Once more, the other day there was a mention of routing the frame rests. I do rout the frame rests carefully on the router table. I am not sure right now, but I think I use a 3/4" straight bit, extending 5/8" above the table. The fence is set back 3/8". Before I start cutting I make pencil marks on the fence for the beginning and the end. With the board vertical, I then plunge near one marked end, carefully run it to the mark and then rout it to the other mark and take the board away or stop the router with that big safety switch. I have no problems with that little radius in the corners, I take it out with a chisel of leave it as the top of the frames have a small corner cut there anyway.


Thanks for the response to my question on routed frame rests, Alex. I do pretty much the same as you with a couple of differences:

a) you have been plunging the board down from above, where I have been holding the board at an angle but laying the bottom edge flat on the router table so that the board is more than 3/8" out from the router bit (right end of board resting against fnece, left end positioned 1/2" out from fence , and then I have been 'plunging' the board horizontally (actually radially) into the router bit until it is resting against against the fence along the entire length of the board and the router bit has channeled 3/8" into the left end of the board (I position so that the frame rest begins 1" from the left end of the board and continue the frame rest route to within 1" of the right end of the board).

b) rather than mess around with a chisel to square out the corners, I have been re-routing the corners with my 1/4" router bit - the small amount of rounding that remains in the corners then becomes irrelevant. In fact, I just puirchased a 3/8" bit so I can try to route out the frame rests in a single pass because even at a 3/16" radius, I don't think the rounding in the corners would interfere with the frame positioning.

This is working OK for me but the two things that take time are positioning and beginning the route (with whatever 'plunging' solution is used and being careful at the end for the positioning of where the route is completed. This is the reason I was thinking about building a jig of some kind to speed up the start and end of the process. If you have any ideas, please let me know.

-fafrd

p.s. I think the routed frame rests are far superior to the dadoed frame rests. On the several commercial boxes I have built, it is the connection between the sides and the 3/8" top of the ends where the frame rest continues that is the weakest point on the box. All of my boxes are warping or splitting in this area and so far I have not found a combination of glue or nails that prevents this. I suppose screws would be the next thing to try, but the routed frame rest completely avoids this problem and provides a joint that is strong and uniform from top to bottom.


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Hello fafrd et al. Yes, you have the right approach with plunging horizontally, I might have done that and not remembered. The only thing that I would caution about, and I assume here that hopefully we have some hobbyists reading in on our conversation, that Safety is Number One! With routing, one has to keep the feeding direction in mind and when routing the frame rests, I have to violate the rules a little bit to get that last bit on one end. No, I have not made a "longer board" yet with the Miter Lock, but have made a sample just for curiosity and found that it helps in the set-up of making the corners. Yes, I had some challenges in the beginning with other box corners where I wound up with a void at the ends of the frame rests. At that point I let the glue dry well and then cleared the area with a Forstner bit and glued in a wood plug. That worked for me too when I had some loose knots (note the spelling! I am the loose nut) that I drilled out with the appropriate Forstner bit only to the needed depth and then glued in a wood plug. Of course, one needs the tools for that but it won't break the bank. Take care and have fun


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

fafrd said:


> This is the reason I was thinking about building a jig of some kind to speed up the start and end of the process. If you have any ideas, please let me know.


This is easily accomplished by by clamping "stop blocks" on the fence where you want to start and stop the cut. You will probably have to make a longer fence to accomplish this if you're using a router table.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Alex Cantacuzene said:


> With routing, one has to keep the feeding direction in mind and when routing the frame rests, I have to violate the rules a little bit to get that last bit on one end.


Alex,

I succeed to route my frame rests without violating the feeding direction rules. Here is how I do it:


RIGHT SIDE (first):

a/ plung router horizontally 3/8" into the right hand side of the board at the stop point (1" to the left of the right hand edge of the board) until the board comes to rest against the fence.

b/ plung router horizontally 3/8" into the right hand side of the board 1" to the left of the first route (2" to the left of the right hand edge of the board) until the board comes to rest against the fence.

c/ continue the second route to the right for ~1" until intersecting the first route (this completes the right side corner).


LEFT SIDE (second):

d/ plung router horizontally 3/8" into the left hand side of the board at the start point (1" to the right of the left hand edge of the board) until the board comes to rest against the fence.

e/ continue the third route to the right for the length of the board until intersecting the second route (this completes the left side corner and the entire frame rest).




Alex Cantacuzene said:


> That worked for me too when I had some loose knots (note the spelling! I am the loose nut) that I drilled out with the appropriate Forstner bit only to the needed depth and then glued in a wood plug. Of course, one needs the tools for that but it won't break the bank.


Shows how much of a novice I am about this woodworkig stuff - cutting out a knot with a hole cutter (which I assume is similar to your 'Forstner bit') and then backfilling with a 3/4" thick wood plug of the same diameter sounds like a much easier way to eliminate a knot then cutting the knot out and splicing the boards back together with a lock miter joint. Thanks for the tip!

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Barry said:


> This is easily accomplished by by clamping "stop blocks" on the fence where you want to start and stop the cut. You will probably have to make a longer fence to accomplish this if you're using a router table.


Barry,

stop blocks are a good idea, though my table is not wide enough as is, so I may need to do a seperate left side stop and a right side stop (or get a bigger table).

I guess I could make a new fnece insert to clamp in front of my existing fence to extend beyond the edges of the table with stop blocks on either end (maybe that is what you meant).

Since I want to plunge the box side horizontally into the router bit (which means the board is vertical, on edge), I am also thinking about a way to do the horizontal plunge that is truly horizontal (and not radial as I am doing it now). 

With a box-like structure that clamps to the board being routed, I ought to be able to use a 'U-shaped' insert/guide to plunge the board into the router bit, guided by the right stop-block/front-to-back fence, slide the board (and support box) all the way to the left against the extended side-to-side fence to route out the frame rest, and then pull the board and box back using the left stop-block/front-to-back fence to end the route.

Anyone ever done anything like that? Does it sound like a good idea? Is there a better way?:scratch:

fafrd


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