# Splitting a Deep hive into 2 sections... how??



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I have a question... and please remember.. I am not a woodworker but... if you need a recipe... just come to ME!!!

Anyway, I would like to over winter some nucs and use a deep hive body and split it into two sections. I have to deeps already put together.

How do I make the division board seperating two sections? I know each deep might not be put together "right" so I am curious to how to make the dividing board.

I would like to over winter these nucs like Michael palmer suggests which is placing a deep hive body split into two sections and placing it on top of the inner cover of a strong hive. So I suppose the diving board needs to be long enough to touch the inner cover, eh?

I also bought the yellow following boards that are sold out there and I do not think they work so well. Anyone have these?


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

You can use 1/4 inch ply or masonite for the divider.A router with a 5/16 bit can be used to cut the groove 3/8 deep into the assembled boxes, but its much easier to cut the grooves before assembly with a table saw.You can nail small strips to hold the divider if you dont want to cut grooves.I have a bunch of these divided boxes. I staple a piece of plastic tarp to the divider to make sure the 2 nucs cant intermingle.

[ July 08, 2006, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: loggermike ]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>How do I make the division board seperating two sections? 

I'm doing it several ways. Micheal Palmer's approach is to divide the deep into two 4-frame nucs with a division board feeder specially compartmentalized and built to allow access from either side without letting the bees mix. The feeder fits tightly at the ends and effectively divides the hive body. The whole thing sits on a specially built bottom board providing an outside entrance for each half on opposite sides of the box. There's a 3/8" rim around the bottom board and a 3/8" shim down the middle that the division board feeder sits on top of. He uses a grain sack for an inner cover and I think a piece of styrofoam on top of that, and a telescoping cover.

I'm going to try the above and have already built a number of bottom boards for the purpose. In addition to the division board feeder method, I'm going to try some with a 1/4" divider set into a dado groove in the deep and put candy covers on them, rather than division board feeders. These will be 5 frame nucs. I'm also hatching a scheme for a 3rd method utilizing the same bottom board design but a different manner of feeding. They'll probably be 5 frame nucs too.

>So I suppose the diving board needs to be long enough to touch the inner cover, eh?

Diving board? That's on the division board feeder Chef....

As I said, he uses a specially built bottom board made out of 3/8" or 1/2" plywood with a rim around it. If you wanted to put your split deep on an inner cover, I suppose you could but you'd need to provide entrances for the nucs and you'd need to use a solid inner cover or cover the hole in the inner cover with wood- screen wouldn't do as you don't want the moisture from the colony downstairs rising up into your nucs. That would be bad. Warmth yes, moisture no.

The bottom board design Michael uses is simple enough, but it could be made even simpler using just a piece of plywood and a bunch of 3/8" thick strips of 3/4" lumber tacked onto it.

I've got photos of a Michael Palmer designed 4 frame nuc with bottom board and division board feeder that a friend of mine built. I see if I can find them.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I don't feel there is much advantage to wintering nucs over the top of strong colonies. If you don't use screen, there isn't much in the way of warmth that is going to get to the nuc from the stronger hive. There are more disadvantages to doing this, really doesn't warrent the extra work.


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

[Diving board? That's on the division board feeder...]

My feeders don't have diving boards and I still have lots of drowned bees. Imagine if they did have diving boards, all those little bees with broken necks just floating in the mix! 

Maybe we can design a feeder with a slide, that would be much safer then a diving board any day! 

Sorry george, I know it was an honest spelling mistake but I couldn't refuse the opportunity for a joke (even if it is bad). 

JEFF


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

anyone ever use or have the yellow dividers or following boards??


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Sorry george, I know it was an honest spelling mistake

Don't apologize to me, apologize to Chef, he made it! I normally overlook spelling errors if I can figure out what they're talking about, but this time I just couldn't resist...

>anyone ever use or have the yellow dividers or following boards??

Not I. I assume they're adjustable plastic? Making them bee-tight is the trick. It's not so much a problem if you're just shrinking hive space, but if you're dividing 2 colonies, it wants to be bee-tight. Bees can squeeze through not much more than an 1/8" gap.

>If you don't use screen, there isn't much in the way of warmth that is going to get to the nuc from the stronger hive.

I disagree. The top of a 2 deep hive represents 22% of the total surface area of the hive. Heat from the cluster inside the hive is going to radiate pretty much equally in all directions. Neglecting heat loss through convection currents and ventilation and the fact that heat rises and other factors such as cluster location (which is usually nearer the top than the bottom), the effect of wrapping, and any insulative materials used on the sides and top of the hive such as a tarpaper or homosote boards, I think we can assume that at least 22% of the heat loss in a 2 deep hive is going to be through the top. That's not insignificant in my opinion.

I certainly can't speak to the effectiveness of wintering nucs on top of full sized colonies because I haven't done it yet, but I know other people that have tried it and believe it's effective and worthwhile. Michael Palmer certainly thinks so.


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## CWBees (May 11, 2006)

If you divide a hive body into four small nucs that would mean your frames would need to be half the length they normally are. 

Where can you purchase these frames or do you need to make them yourself?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>anyone ever use or have the yellow dividers or following boards??

I have. I never had much luck with them. The easiest time to inlet a divider is before you assemble the boxes. I'd put two saw blades together in a skill saw to get the 1/4" wide groove (since they are already assembled). If they weren't assembled you could do it on the table saw with a 1/4" dado blade. You could also do it with a 1/4" router bit on a router. In which case I'd clamp a piece of one by on for a guide.

I'd make the divider out of 1/4" luan.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"I disagree. The top of a 2 deep hive represents 22% of the total surface area of the hive. Heat from the cluster inside the hive is going to radiate pretty much equally in all directions. Neglecting heat loss through convection currents and ventilation and the fact that heat rises and other factors such as cluster location (which is usually nearer the top than the bottom), the effect of wrapping, and any insulative materials used on the sides and top of the hive such as a tarpaper or homosote boards, I think we can assume that at least 22% of the heat loss in a 2 deep hive is going to be through the top. That's not insignificant in my opinion."

George

I disagree with your disagreement. Most of us know that the winter cluster does not heat the entire hive area. It is my feeling that the outer layer of the cluster contains the heat, much like insulation, which is why the outer layers of the cluster are lethargic. It is also why condisation tends to freeze inside the hive, which is why ventilation is so important. It would take alot more stores to get a hive through the winter if they just let their heat radiate off that way. I don't believe the cluster will give off enough heat to do a nuc any good if it is seperated from the strong hive by a solid cover.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

That is what I thought too Peggjam. I talked with Maechael Palmer about it and he does beleieve that the heat does heat up the wood. He sees that all the clusters..both from the big hive and nucs are in the same location which leads him to believe that the warm of each cluster is adding to the overall warmth. 

I am still a little skeptical about if it is enough heat to ehat up the wood. But I am willing to try it out.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I have never used a router before. I suppose that is what my dads for







.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

George and Paggjam
There may not be MUCH extra heat up there but it is enough to make a difference in where the mice like to build their nests. When we wrapped and wintered here in Wisconsin, the number one choice for mouse nests was on the top of the hive. We never insulated around the hives, just used roofing paper but we did put a square of insulation on top, under the telescope, as heat rises. The mice knew, that's for sure!









Sheri


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Those bees give off a lot of heat all winter long, as they need to stay warm enough to eat. We used to winter quite a few in an unheated, uninsulated room. We gave them no winterizing at all, just stacked them up in the dark. Our problem was not keeping ghem warm enough, it was keeping them cool enough. Even with the temps below zero for weeks at a time, we needed a big ventilation unit to keep them cooled down.
Sheri

Sheri


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"Those bees give off a lot of heat all winter long, as they need to stay warm enough to eat."

In the center of the cluster, yes, but to give it off to empty space, I don't think so. The heat, if any, is from vapors...water vapor, CO2..ect. I think we need to define what we consider heat. I consider alot of heat would keep the entire inside of the hive at 32 degrees or above. How do you define it?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

I suppose "a lot of heat" is a fairly subjective term, isn't it, lol. 
Actually, the temp of the surface of the cluster, and the interior, is kept at about 45 degrees. The bees on the outside ARE insulation, as is the honey stores they need to stay next to. You are right that they would not want to keep the entire hive 32 but of course there will be some heat migration. The less the better from the bees point of view.
When you look at bees wintering on pallets up here in this cold climate (before we decided the bees needed to work all winter in California), the bees tend to cluster towards the walls of the neighboring clusters, forming a larger , albiet disconnected, cluster. If they didn't put off ANY heat, I doubt there would be any benefit associated. In fact, how would they even know to do this if no heat migrated between them?
Ideally, every hive going into winter would be large enough to generate their own heat, but barring that, I think nukes wintering together would benefit from each other's mass and the mass of the colony beneath it, even when seperated by wood. We aren't talking mega degrees here, but every little bit helps when those cold winds blow. Can't hurt.
One issue might be drifting. When wrapping it would help to put differentiation near the seperate enterances, or maybe even turn the nukes to open in different directions.
Sheri


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>I disagree with your disagreement.

Geez peggjam, can you do that? Don't we have to agree to disagree?

Take a look at this document "THE THERMOLOGY OF WINTERING HONEY BEE COLONIES" if you haven't already. It's pretty facinating and has pictures









http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/techbulletin1429.htm

What becomes clear from the above study is that honey bee clusters both generate and lose a considerable amount of heat over the winter. Granted, they do a good job of insulating the core of the cluster, but there's no such thing as a perfect insulator, there's always going to be heat loss with heat moving from warm to less warm.

Some of this heat loss is through conduction by the air, and moist air conducts (and holds) heat better than dry air. Then there is radiant heat loss and this does in fact involve heat radiating off into space and heating to a lesser extent the air it passes through and to a greater extent anything solid it runs into- like the combs, hive walls and lid. There's also heat loss due to convection- heat being carried away by air movement.

All this heat coming from the cluster doesn't just disappear, the loss tends to end up heating the hive body which in turn radiates it's heat off into the great outdoors. It's no accident, as cold as it got here last winter, there was rarely any snow on top of my hives. Right after a storm sure, but it didn't take long for it to melt.

So the only question in my mind is how much heat comes off a cluster and goes out through the top of the hive- not if. Considering all the methods of heat transfer- conduction, convection, and radiation, and other factors such as the R-Value of wood, cluster location, and air movement, I don't see how the heat loss out the top can be any less than 22% of the total heat loss of the hive and in reality it is probably considerably more.

For an incredibly illustrative picture of heat loss in honey bee colonies, check out these pictures taken with an infrared camera. They're partway down the page, you'll have to scroll:

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2004/diary011004.htm

There's a couple of other pictures a bit further on down the page too.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>I have never used a router before. I suppose that is what my dads for

You can always just rip up some thin strips of wood and tack them to the inside of the hive body to form a channel for the diving board.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"Take a look at this document "THE THERMOLOGY OF WINTERING HONEY BEE COLONIES" if you haven't already."

I have read this, and it still doesn't convince me that there is a useful amount of heat that escapes from a winter cluster, that would give a nuc any advantage over one that was not on top of a strong hive. Those same nucs packed side by side and covered with insulating board would be just as effective as placing on top of a hive, with none of the drawbacks. Figure 1 shows that tempitures drop fast just inches from the cluster. I just don't think it is worth the extra effort. You might better spend time and resources on learning to winter nucs by themselves.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Figure 1 shows that tempitures drop fast just inches from the cluster.

Radiant heat doesn't heat the air much as it passes through it. It heats wet air better than dry air. I'm reminded of sitting in front of a camp fire when it's -25F outside and the palms of my hands are burning from the heat and the backs of my hands are burning from the cold.

So the only thing we really disagree on peggjam is not whether heat comes off the cluster, but how much and whether it's significant.

>You might better spend time and resources on learning to winter nucs by themselves.

Most of the successful methods I've run across involve wintering them over on top of strong colonies


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"So the only thing we really disagree on peggjam is not whether heat comes off the cluster, but how much and whether it's significant."

I have never said they didn't put off "some" heat. What I did say was that without allowing the airflow from the hive to pass through the nuc, the amount of heat getting to the nuc would do little to warm the nuc. And as the past has showen, allowing the moist air from a hive to move through a nuc can and will be a deastor for the nuc.

Qoute from my first post on the subject:

"If you don't use screen, there isn't much in the way of warmth that is going to get to the nuc from the stronger hive.'

Qoute from my second post on the subject:

"I don't believe the cluster will give off enough heat to do a nuc any good if it is seperated from the strong hive by a solid cover."

Why don't you try wintering some in packs of four, by themselves? Just for comparision, of course.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

To take the stacking to an extreme, my brother-in-law did an experiment with this one year. He took six deep single colonies, tucked them tight up to each other, then put six on top of these, then 6 more on top. So there was a pretty solid group of 18 single deeps, 6 on a layer, 3 layers high. He then wrapped the whole bunch in tar paper, with insulation over the top, if you can imagine all this, lol. 
They all came through winter fine, but with quite a bit of drifting. Interesting, but he didn't do it again.








Sheri


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I am going to try two different methods. The first method is to place a deep hive divide into two (so two) nucs on top of a strong hive. The other method I am going to try is a 5 frame nuc with insulation on top, bottom and sides of the hive.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>You can always just rip up some thin strips of wood and tack them to the inside of the hive body to form a channel for the diving board.

Except then you'd still have to cut the divider to fit the frame rest. But if you did that it would work great.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

peggjam,

I've measured the temperature difference on top of a colony in winter. I was using a masonite divider on top of a strong 2 story colony with a deep brood chamber divided into 3 nucs on top. The nucs wintered very successfully and were ready to go next spring. A thermometer lying on top of the masonite ranged from 15 to 20 degrees above ambient temperature which was below freezing at the time.

Your statement that the bees do not heat the inside of the hive is correct but you are incorrect in thinking that a colony does not lose significant amounts of heat overhead. The primary cause of this loss is water vapor which the bees release as they consume honey.

I am already set up with 3 frame nucs above strong colonies to go into this winter. I've used this method many times and I know it works. This doesn't mean you can't overwinter nucs with other methods. Its just the method that I prefer to use.

Fusion


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

fusion:

Is your method like M. Palmers method? Do you over winter nucs above a closed off inner cover of a strong hive with the bottom board of the nuc on top of the inner cover??


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"The primary cause of this loss is water vapor which the bees release as they consume honey."

If you refer to my 3rd post you will find this little gem:

"The heat, if any, is from vapors...water vapor, CO2..ect." 


"I am already set up with 3 frame nucs above strong colonies to go into this winter. I've used this method many times and I know it works. This doesn't mean you can't overwinter nucs with other methods. Its just the method that I prefer to use."

You can winter nucs however you like, according to personal preferances. I have stated, and will again that the drawbacks to wintering nucs over the top of colonies is not worth the effort. If you are going to winter a small number, and can afford the loses all fine and dandy, go for it. It's been tried by some of the best beekeeps going, with very mixed results. The most common practice I have heard of is to wrap them in groups of four, on a pallet, by themselves, with much more constant results. If you want to put alot of extra effort into something you could always set up an inside wintering building complete with ventilation and heat....but again, I don't feel that it is worth the extra effort.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>wintering nucs over the top of colonies is not worth the effort.

What effort? Compared to another method? What's so hard about stacking nucs on another colony?


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)




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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Lol Peggjam, Look where I live!

Find what works for you where you live. I have. Its easy to set up, takes very little additional equipment, gives better than 90% successful overwintering, and gives me colonies ready to make honey the next spring.

When I go out to set up colonies next spring, I'll bring in the nucs from one yard to build colonies here at my home. I'll take the nucs from home to another yard and set up colonies there. No drifting, I get colonies where I want them, and if I choose to sell a nuc, I get a premium price.

Fusion


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

George

check your PMS


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

Last winter I found a new way to check hives in the winter to see if there was still life in them. We are wintering bees in Saskatchewan and it gets cold here. The hives are wrapped with insulation and the bottom entrances are closed. The top entranced on the migratory top is left open for ventilation. I noticed that there always seemed to be a few bees around the entrance on all but the coldest days. My son had given me a thermometer that shoots an infared beam and it measures the temp on anything it touches. I used it to shoot a beam inside the hive, through the top entrance. Even on the coldest days here the temps inside the hive stayed over 20 degrees c. (about 70f) This would lead me to beleive that the cluster gives off a lot more heat than we realize. Peggjam, I would consider this a lot of heat.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Next time measure the heat of the wood, if they are giving off that much heat, the wood would be almost as warm. The other thing, you wrap your hives with insulation, not to many of us down here do that. The bees are lucky if they get a tarpaper wrap. Also the study that George linked doesn't support your findings. That shows tempitures dropoff rather quickly within inches of the cluster. Are you sure you didn't get the actual tempiture of the cluster, cause that would be about right for just under the outter layers of bees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My problem when wintering over a strong colony was condensation. I never had any luck with the air from the bottom colony getting into the top colony.

I just used a double screened inner cover between so the hole wasn't very large.

I also used a solid covers with a stack of eight frame boxes and still condensation was the problem.


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

I am sure that I did not get the temp from the cluster. I checked all of our hives and got the same results. The results were from the wood on the inside of the hive. The beam has to hit something in order to give a reading. This was not a one time thing. I checked this throughout the winter. One of the hives was not as strong as the rest. It did show lower temps but was still warm. There has been a lot of work done in Canada on the wintering of bees inside. This information comes from a very good book called Beekeeping In Western Canada and there research indicates that a hive will give off 8 to 28 watts of heat per hour. If you relate this to an electic heater it will give you an idea of the heat. We had concerns about moisture and condesation in the hive but have not seen any sign of trouble here.We are using a 3/4 inch plywood top.For the winter months we top this with 2 inches of styrofoam and then R15 fibreglass insulation. The sides are wrapped with R15 as well. It would appear that being able to retain the the heat being produced with the insulation stops the condensation problem. We had a warmer than normal winter last year but evan then we did see some -30c temps.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Re the moisture problems, I completely agree with Michael Bush. The single most destructive thing most beekeepers do to their bees is to tighten everything up so that there is no way for moisture to escape during the winter. I made this mistake on almost all of my colonies for the first 10 years I kept bees. Then I read an article about leaving a wide gap at the top of each colony to improve wintering. I tried it and never looked back. All of my colonies go into winter with a restricted bottom entrance and a wide open top entrance. I've even overwintered bees with a bottom board on top of the hive so the opening was 5/8 inch high by the width of the front of the hive. The bees came through in exceptionally good condition. Keep in mind that I'm in the relatively mild but very humid SouthEast!

Fusion


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"This information comes from a very good book called Beekeeping In Western Canada and there research indicates that a hive will give off 8 to 28 watts of heat per hour. If you relate this to an electic heater it will give you an idea of the heat."


Yup, it is a good book, got it right here. The information you qoute is from page 109, bottom paragraph. But of course this is listed under the heading Indoor Wintering. I will not say that this does not relate to Outdoor Wintering, but if it did, it would have been mentioned under that heading as well. It futher states that under normal wintering conditions, the heat would be at the lower ranges of tempitures given. I have a very hard time believing that a hive that allows that much heat to escape, would make it through the winter on the "normal" amount of stores that most beekeepers leave. I futher think that the link George provided gives a much clearer view of the true tempitures in any given hive during the winter.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

In my opinion, there is no real extra work per say. It all ties into the work to that comes with beekeeping for the preperation of winter. 

I am going to expriment and maybe some people are right... maybe overwintern ucs cant be done. Maybe Peggjam is right, why the extra effort. Maybe it will work, maybe not. I am in it for the education with the hopes some of my now poor hives will come through the winter with new queens.

I am willing to try!!!


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

I think the study is saying the same thing I am. Bees cluster and produce heat. This heat will escape. We simply try to control the heat with insulation. The study also indicates that the colder the outside temps are, more heat is produced by the cluster. From this I would conclude that the outside hives are towards the top end of the 8 to 28 watt range. Evan at the low end of the scale,I found this to be a suprising amount of heat. Another concern that I had when I started finding temps like this was if the hive was this warm, the bees may be to active in the hive and consume all of the stores. We winter with two deeps and made sure they were very heavy going in to winter. It turned out to be nothing to worry about as they still had lots of honey in the spring when we unwrapped them.I find these an amazing little insect. Last winter they were in -25F temps and today we are close to 90F and they adapt just fine. The country here is just full of blooms (alphalpha and canola)right now.We have made one pull from our hives and they are being filled for a secound time. We will harvest that and then let them start storing for the winter.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Chef: I've overwintered singles above and found that solid inner covers are a must, screened ones are very good for killing colonies. I never tried a box that is split in two, but agree with Peggjam that it may not be worth the extra effort. The extra work is in the spring when you start checking who is alive and who is not. Then if you start stimulative feeding the top hive has to be lifted off the bottom one and that is extra work and a big pain in the a**. If you do not think it is a pain then get an extra 100 colonies and keep doing that (extra 100) until you find that those top hives are a pain. At that point you'll probably have the right amount of hives.

dgl1948 How come you have a preset idea as to what the season will bring? I was in North Eastern Alta. (Elk Point) earlier in the week and saw plenty of canola, alfalfa and clover. Apparently there has been heat and to me it looked like this has the potential to be a very good year. Moisture seems very good and with some heat we could get an extended honey flow. Apparently every 10 years or so (don't really know) honey flows can extend into September on the prairies to get that huge crop. It feels to me that this could be the year. I'm saying you may need to pull 3 or 4 times. Honey prices are relatively good compared to sugar. I would feed more and extract everything above the second box in order to get the most honey possible.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

Jean-Marc: The normal around here is 3 pulls. This is going to be a good year. Lots of rain and very good crops. We will only do 2 pulls. We are trying to increase as much as possable so we will use the late honey for winter stocks and increase next spring.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Maybe I am just a dumb work horse (heck, I am in the food industry). 

I am just going to see what works and what doesnt. the biggest concern I have is that I have 13 or so packages that are not built up enough to go through the winter due to some bad choice of where to buy the packages from. I can either":

1: take the loss and risk loosing $700 plus by overwintering them in one or maybe possbily two deeps.
2: experament with ways to get the weak hives through the winter.

I hate option one... mmm.. that leaves option 2.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

CI,

Its a bit painful to do but the best way to take weak colonies through winter is to unite them into strong colonies. You might have to unite 2 or 3 to get one colony big enough and built up enough to overwinter, but its probably a better option than trying to overwinter too many weak colonies.

Fusion


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Not sure what your winter climate is where you are, but have you considered overwintering indoors, in a place such as a basement or garden shed? Small colonies die off because they don't have the mass to keep themselves warm, so if you could keep them in a more protected climate? We did this for years before we started sending everything to California or Texas. 
If they have enough feed, are kept in the dark (and I mean DARK) and the right temp (about 43) they do just fine.
Sheri


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Chef:

Is it not possible to feed them once a week to build them up. My question would be why have they not built up? My hives had troubles in Feb. and March but once they started flying in April they turned around. Maybe they have high mite loads. Try pushing them with syrup and patties, it does wonders.

Jean-Marc


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Hey Chef, your mailbox is full. Time to delete some old mail!


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## Hook (Jun 2, 2002)

Ok, I completely agree with Peggjam. The space is not heated by the bees, rather the inside of a cluster. Go back to the basics, and forget about all of the modern monitering equipment. When bees resided in a hollow tree, they did not heat the whole cavity. They heated there cluster. As long as they had stores, and were not sick, and a fair amount of bees , they probably made it through the winter..

The follower board is not that hard to make. It would have been better to "dado" the sides and divide it that way, but if its already put together, you have to go to plan "B"!

Get a scrap peice of paneling, and cut it to the dimensions of the deep. That means, squaring it off, the length of the frame rests, and then trimming the rest off below. The framerests are probably 3/8 in wide, so the ends would be upside down "L" shaped.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>The space is not heated by the bees, rather the inside of a cluster.

So why don't bees cluster out in the open? Why instead do they seek shelter in a cavity? Why do the bees plug holes, glue the boxes together, and stick down the lid with propolis? To minimize heat loss due the infiltration of cold air, that's why. Why do clusters migrate to the sunny side of the box? Because heat loss is less where there is less temperature differential between warm and cold and when the sun is out, the bees don't have to work so hard to stay warm! Why do clusters end up in the top of the box? Because heat rises! Why does the snow melt from off the top of the hive? Because heat escaping from the cluster rises and heats the lid!

You can't consider the thermal characteristics of a honey bee cluster without considering the space they're living in. Heat escapes from the cluster, that heat loss heats the space around them. The heat from the cluster both warms the air inside the hive and the hive walls through conduction and radiation. Some of that heat is carried outside as warmed air as a result of ventilation and some is conducted by the walls, floor, and lid of the hive body to the outside where it is lost through black body radiation.

This is basic thermodynamics. There is no such thing as a perfect insulator. The best insulator is dead air and all conventional forms of insulation involve trapping air- creating dead air space. Fiberglass insulation, stryrofoam, etc., all owe their insulative qualities to their ability to trap air while at the same time NOT conduct heat. Glass is actually a poor insulator which is why styrofoam is better inch for inch than Corning's finest. Thermopane windows work the same way, by trapping air between 2 pieces of glass and the spacing of the glass is optimized to take advantage of the insulative qualities of dead air without being so wide as to allow convection currents to form which would make the air not dead at all. If the spacing is correct, friction between the air and the glass minimizes convection. If the spacing is too great, then air currents develop which rapidly transfers heat through conduction from one side of the window to the other. Interestingly enough, the optimum spacing to minimize convection currents is nearly 3/8" which is almost exactly 1 bee space. Chew on that for a while









Honey bee clusters owe their insulative qualities to dead air too- the bees clustered bodies trap air and minimize heat loss through convection currents and they do a pretty good job of it. But honey bee clusters still lose heat, and that lost heat raises the temperature of the space surrounding the cluster and the elements that create the space- the hive walls, floor, and top. Finally, the greater the temperature differential between the inside of the cluster and the outside of the cluster, the greater the heat loss.

When you have a heat source, there is always going to be some heat loss. Heat travels from warm to less warm. This is all basic thermodynamics.

So here's a question. Consider your refrigerator for a moment. Neglecting the heat given off by the motor, does your refrigerator cool your house, or does your house heat the refrigerator? To rephrase the question, does your refrigerator lose cold or gain heat?

[ July 15, 2006, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: George Fergusson ]


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

george:

Nicely put!!

By the way.. I am ready for the PM's!


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

George, and everyone else who has entertained me with their witty responses:

I have never said they don't give off some heat. However, I have said that the heat they lose is not great enough to put to any real purpose, as a link provided by George clearly shows. Also, the heat they do give off is in the form of CO2, and H2O vapors, which if pasted off to a smaller hive above will cause more problems than benifits. The reason they don't winter in outside clusters, and glue everything down is due to drafts. A cluster inside a cavity will withstand drafts much better than one outside. A cluster moves to the sunny side of the hive due to solar gain. And finily, a cluster will end up in the top box because that is where their food is, duh.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>the heat they lose is not great enough to put to any real purpose, as a link provided by George clearly shows.

Funny, I interpreted the data rather differently than you









>Also, the heat they do give off is in the form of CO2, and H2O vapors

Well *most* of the heat is given off that way, and technically, we're talking warmed water- heat contained in the moisture in the air as dry air has a very low specific heat. In other words dry air doesn't hold much heat. And no, you don't want the moisture-laden air from one hive condensing inside another. Heat also is given off in the form of radiation- infrared energy. This radiant heat is mostly absorbed by the surrounding combs and their contents (honey, pollen), woodenware, and hive walls.

The effect of the escaping heat that doesn't leave the hive in the form of warm moist air but instead radiates outward and warms the surrounding materials ends up forming a heat barrier that makes for a lesser temperature gradient. This actually makes it easier for the bees to stay warm and because the space between combs is such that convection currents are minimized, the heat is retained reasonably well.

>And finily, a cluster will end up in the top box because that is where their food is, duh.

Duh in deed! But WHY is their food up top and not down below? Why don't bees work from the bottom up instead of the top down?

Very simply, the reason is that heat rises. Bees are cold blooded and need to maintain brood nest temperatures that are more often than not much higher than the outside temperature. They're experts at thermoregulation. Sheer economy and common sense dictates that bees will spend the summer down low in the hive when heat is abundant and cheap and the winter up high when heat is (relatively) more expensive. Bees don't cluster high in the winter because that's where their food is, they put their food up high because that's where they're going to be when it gets cold outside









Personally Peggjam, I'm enjoying this discussion. I hope you are too! We only really seem to disagree on how much heat a cluster gives off. I think it's substantial. You think it's minimal.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"Why don't bees work from the bottom up instead of the top down?"

Why do you think the bottom box is mostly empty in the spring? This empty box is the basis for hive body reversal in the spring. Ya don't suppose the bees do indeed work from the bottom up, hence the empty bottom hive body?


"You think it's minimal."

I believe it has to be minimal in order for the hive to survive. If there is as much heat escapeing as you claim, they would need alot more in the way of honey to winter successfully. Futher, if water vapor given off by the cluster will freeze inside the hive, it stands to reason that they are not giving off enough useable heat. I am quite sure that with enough insulation added to hives, the insulation would preserve some of this heat, and might actually bring it to the point that some practable use could be made of it. BUT, in the contect of wintering nucs on top of hives just for this added "warmth" does the extra work become practiable? Why not just wrap the nucs? I DO NOT think that wintering nucs on top of hives is worth the extra work that would be involved, and time might better be spent preparing strong nucs to winter by themselves, or packed in groups of whatever.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"Personally Peggjam, I'm enjoying this discussion. I hope you are too! We only really seem to disagree on how much heat a cluster gives off. I think it's substantial. You think it's minimal."

Me too, if nothing else, it will promote more thinking on the problem of wintering nucs. We proably will never truely reach a consenus on the best metheod, but if we kick the hive enough times we might be stung with insperation on better metheods of doing so.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Me too, if nothing else, it will promote more thinking on the problem of wintering nucs.

Well that's what it's all about isn't it? If we all agreed completely on everything beekeeping, there wouldn't be a lot to talk about. Add to this the differences in location, weather, forage, race of bees, etc., and you realiize that all beekeeping truly is local.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

local or loco???


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