# Best type of frame foundations to use?



## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

I use foundationless with a wood strip for a guide. I've never used plastic I do mentor several people that do and have to admit I've been quit impressed with it. It's easy to crush shb on plastic foundation without causing excessive damage to the comb. Like I've said have not personally used plastic but really like foundationless.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

Coach62 said:


> Plain wood (no foundation) plastic frame or wax frames?


Yes, I have used and have all 3 in my hives.

foundation less (plain wood with some sort of starter strip) i have used in the past. They draw more drone comb on this type i my experience.

plastic foundation stays nice and flat, more so than regular wax IMHO although it would seem they draw it a bit slower than natural wax.

Wax foundation they seem to like, but if its been hot or sitting around it can warp/sag and result in drawn comb that isnt as even as plastic. Wireing helps but you can still have issues.

I have used thin-surplus/foundationless in honey supers for cut comb with little issue, just make shure you label them because they will be "Fragile" when it comes to extracting if you dont use them for cut comb.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I've never used wax foundation... so consider that when you read my response:
Foundationless has a place. The major benefit (to me) is that the bees basically do not draw burr comb between the boxes. On rare occasion they'll draw a little bit. Keep any foundationless predominantly drone combs towards the outer 1/3rd of the broodnest so they can lay in it and have it adjacent to all of the other brood. 

I tried the plastic frames and they just simply aren't for me. Flimsy and bees seem hell-bent on drawing comb up from the top of them.

I've settled on plastic foundation in wood frames. I think it combines the best of both worlds. You do have to either coat the foundation well with wax yourself of buy from a manufacturer who coats them with enough wax from the get-go. I mix a couple of foundationless frames in... the bees will draw drone comb on it and it makes a nice compact area for them to raise drones.

This is between two of the three deeps on one of my hives, if you look close you can see a tiny bit of burr comb under a mass of bees... they just simply don't draw much so speak of...


Another between brood boxes:


Granted these have only been in their hives for going on three years now... but they just don't seem interested in making a bunch of burr comb when they can put drones where they want them.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I am far from an expert, but . . .

I've used wood frames with plastic foundation, foundationless wood frames, and single piece plastic frame and plastic comb (where the bees need only fill the pre-made plastic cells and cap them). 

The standard wood frame with plastic foundation is what I use as the best compromise. It is durable, easy to work with, and the bees take to it pretty well, but don't go crazy building drone cells.

The bees love the foundationless, and build comb really fast, but when I use it in the Spring (which is when I am usually inserting new frames) they build mostly drone comb right when I want them to building worker population, the comb is relatively fragile, and even when older and hardened doesn't hold up in the extractor as well.

After experimenting with it in the beginning when I had no built combs, I won't use the single piece plastic frame/comb. The bees just don't readily accept it and build up slowly on it.

JMHO


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Thanks for the great responses. So if I get the jist correctly wood frame with plastic foundation is good for the brood boxes. 

When I get to the point of adding a honey medium super with a queen excluder I'd like to try foundationless wood frame with a 1" wax starter strip. This is so I'd be able to cut honey comb into squares and package it up for Christmas gifts. Sound about right?


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Yep, you can. What's funny though is if you send out comb folks will invariably ask how to eat it. In short you don't want to do too much of that unless you're planning on doing crush and strain extraction. I too use wood frames with plastic foundation deeps for my brood boxes. For my supers I use medium wood frames and plastic foundation.


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## Mickster (Apr 6, 2016)

jwcarlson -- which foundation are you using and where did you buy it? Those frames look rock solid!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Mickster said:


> jwcarlson -- which foundation are you using and where did you buy it? Those frames look rock solid!


Mann Lake's Rite Cell plastic. But this year, to avoid the labor and "cost" associated with coating them in wax (because the factory coating is HORRIBLE), I ordered 500 sheets from Acorn Bee. I just now put some on hives, so it isn't a good comparison yet. But the Acorn frames have MANY times the wax coating as the Mann Lake stuff. Here's a picture comparing them:



The back one is the Acorn foundation. The front one is the Mann Lake one. The Rite Cell works dandy if given another coat of wax. They will work with the factory wax coating when it's great comb building conditions, but I tend to push foundation to mine at non-ideal times on occasion and if it's well coating they'll draw it. If it's factory coated they'll strip a lot of it off and draw about a half of it.

It might be tough to see the coating on the Acorn frame because it's so uniform and thick that it almost looks like there isn't anything there. But when you run your fingers across the foundation you feel nothing but wax. Do the same on the Rite Cell and you fell nothing but plastic basically.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Photo #2 in Post #9 - that queen is laying corner-to-corner!

I would add that when using plastic foundation for brood, black colored foundation makes it much easier to spot eggs.


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## Mickster (Apr 6, 2016)

Man that's solid! Where did you buy your acorn foundation? I'm a new beekeeper and may need to apply some wax to my rightcell foundation. Is there a specific type of wax I can order to apply?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Mickster said:


> Man that's solid! Where did you buy your acorn foundation? I'm a new beekeeper and may need to apply some wax to my rightcell foundation. Is there a specific type of wax I can order to apply?


Beeswax..................................................................... haha

www.acornbee.com
The shipping is prohibitive until you get to about 400 or 500 sheets. Otherwise just coat Rite Cell (you might find that factory coating on the RC is good enough for you). 

So as not to hijack the OP...
More on Acorn here:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?321963-Acorn-Foundation


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Coach,
We raise cut comb honey. We use the shallow frames with the thin surplus foundation. Keeps the combs a little straighter. When the frame is full cut it with one of those square stainless cutters. Beautiful.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Arnie said:


> Coach,
> We raise cut comb honey. We use the shallow frames with the thin surplus foundation. Keeps the combs a little straighter. When the frame is full cut it with one of those square stainless cutters. Beautiful.


Hate to be a pain, but can you elaborate please? What is thin surplus foundation? If it's on a foundation, how do you cut it into squares to package? The videos I've watched all appeared to be foundationless. They cut the honeycomb out of the frame, then cut it into squares. 

This is what I had in mind: http://www.overstock.com/Farmers-Market/Topanga-Quality-Raw-Honeycomb-Square/8769311/product.html


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Coach62 said:


> Hate to be a pain, but can you elaborate please? What is thin surplus foundation? If it's on a foundation, how do you cut it into squares to package? The videos I've watched all appeared to be foundationless. They cut the honeycomb out of the frame, then cut it into squares.
> 
> This is what I had in mind: http://www.overstock.com/Farmers-Market/Topanga-Quality-Raw-Honeycomb-Square/8769311/product.html


Ah.... sorry. This type of thing: It is wax, no plastic. For shallow supers, wood frames with wedge top bar, slotted bottom bar.
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/product/FN-135.html

Comb cutter:
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/product/HD-177.html

Then you can cut out the comb.

Comb boxes:
https://westernbeestore.3dcartstores.com/Plastic-Cut-Comb-Boxes--c100_p_155.html


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Wood frame with plastic foundation. Cheaper and faster than pure wax foundation. Keep bees on frames with out foundation is doable but not for everyone. Many drawbacks


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Arnie said:


> Ah.... sorry. This type of thing: It is wax, no plastic. For shallow supers, wood frames with wedge top bar, slotted bottom bar.
> http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/product/FN-135.html
> 
> Comb cutter:
> ...


Thanks Arnie, that's a great resource, I'll order some. It was the word "surplus" that threw me.

So I have some medium frame and a box with plastic foundation. I'll order some of those, remove the plastic foundation and replace with the wax. It can't be that hard.

I assume you cut the comb leaving the thin wax foundation in the middle?


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Coach62 said:


> I assume you cut the comb leaving the thin wax foundation in the middle?


Nope. Cut right through the foundation to the other side.
With a medium frame you will have honey comb left in the frame around the edges. Use that for crush and strain liquid honey. 

I'll have to see if I can find some pics to illustrate.


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## Mickster (Apr 6, 2016)

Thanks jcarlson. Would the following beeswax work OK?:

https://www.dadant.com/catalog/w00102-1lb-cake-yellow-ref-beeswax-lb

Not sure if there is a specific type of beeswax I should be looking for.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Mickster said:


> Thanks jcarlson. Would the following beeswax work OK?:
> 
> https://www.dadant.com/catalog/w00102-1lb-cake-yellow-ref-beeswax-lb
> 
> Not sure if there is a specific type of beeswax I should be looking for.


Yes that would work just fine. I'd suggest looking for some locally, though. It will likely be cheaper. I pay $6/pound when I run out of my own (I'm fairly new so drawn comb and wax are a bit of a premium still) from a sideliner just across the river. Her's is good stuff. I use about 6-8 pounds per 100 sheets of plastic foundation. When you start thinking about how many dollars in wax that is, it starts adding quite a bit in cost to the "cheap" Rite Cell. That's why I ended up buying the heavily waxed Acorn stuff because it saved me not only time, but also some money in wax. 

That said I did just buy another 100 Rite Cells (they were on sale 100 for $95). I go through the 'cost analysis' in that thread I linked above. For someone needing a couple hives' worth of foundation it will be more economical to just go with the factory coated Rite Cell and paint roller some melted wax on. It works well and if you're not doing hundreds of sheets the time invested isn't too bad.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I run (mostly) wood, wire and wax frames. I use "Medium Brood Foundation" - for the newbee "medium foundation" refers to the weight of the wax (heavy) and not the frame size.

For me this is an aesthetic decision -- I simply like the look, smell and feel of a wood frame with fresh glowing wax foundation.

I generate substantial numbers of Foundationless frames to feed the unsubstantiated mania for these "magic" items among the deluded newbees seduced by the claims of internet guru's.

Foundationless frames require a huge time commitment (one must feed the frames one-by-one into a brood nest, or risk either: 1) an unholy mess of cross comb, or 2) a frame of giant drone cells (which defeats the whole purpose).

Wood-wire-and wax frames are a time commitment themselves -- I can build and wire about 300 per winter evening. Not enough for large-scale commercial, but fine at a sideliner level. Wood-wire-and wax at about $1.60 per complete frame are a lower cost item.

Deep-sized "Medium Foundation" is heavier weight than Medium Medium (got that?). Out of necessity, and sometime preference, I cut-down deep wax to fit medium frames. I use the cut-off as starter strip for foundationless. The heavier wax 1) draws faster, 2) doesn't sag in hot weather before being drawn.

I don't like the "vertical" squiggle wire foundation -- again this is just aesthetic prejudice. Ugly mess of stiff wires when you melt the wax. The vertical wire also doesn't fit mis-branded frames (my frames are an unholy mess of Dadant and Mann and homemade). Medium brood fits all, but the hook wire can be oversized, and bow out of the frames - and one must nip them down and x-wire the frames to hold them in -- which defeats the whole purpose of the squiggle wire.

So for me: wood and wax -- an historic tradition. Wax went up substantially this year (from about $205 per 25 lbs to $235)


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

duplicate post deleted.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

My first year beekeeping I used Pierco foundation in wood frames. The bees hated it, built slowly and built comb between the frames off of the foundation. So, I switched to foundationless for a couple of years. I am expanding a bit and this year decided to try Acorn foundation with the "Max Wax" option (my own wording, not theirs). I am VERY pleased with it. The bees are drawing it perfectly and I didn't have to take the time to add wax to 100 frames. I believe wood frames with plastic foundation is the way to go. Yes, you do have to assemble everything but with good foundation and a bit of care when pulling frames, they should last a lifetime.


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

I started with lots of one-piece plastic frame/foundation, but I'm finding that SHB have lots of places to hide, and they're moving into our area...

I also use foundationless to give the young bees something to do (build comb). I really like it and will use more. When the bees drawn drone comb I just move it to be the outer frame of the broodnest; the bees have drawn several beautiful worker size combs that look like drawn foundation. So they build what they want on foundationless.

I will probably switch to wood frames (no place for SHB to hide) with plastic foundation (wish Mann Lake sold pf120 foundation sheets). And stay with quite a bit of foundationless.

I've heard nothing but horror stories about Duragilt, FWIW.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

JoshuaW, for what it's worth, I believe Acorn cell size is 5.1 mm compared to the 5.4 mm on Rite Cell. Whatever it is, it's visible smaller than the Rite Cell. I'm not concerned with cell size, but I think the idea of having more cells per comb is a good one.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you are not going to use foundation, you should use a comb guide.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#combguide


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Thank you all, good info. As to the guide - I had planned on cutting down the beeswax foundation to about 3/4" deep and putting it into the top to act as a guide if I use a foundationless frame.


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

jwcarlson said:


> just go with the factory coated Rite Cell and paint roller some melted wax on. It works well and if you're not doing hundreds of sheets the time invested isn't too bad.


I have heard of a few folks drawing it on like a crayon... any thoughts on that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR76j-4GMYY


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

There are several videos on the tube, one or two are obviously professional operations. that method looks interesting, I'd probably melt it again while on the frame with the heat gun, although I'd think dipping would be the best coverage.


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

I use crimp wire wax foundation. I will cut a section out of every few frames and let the bees build it back. Sometimes injust break off the last section as I am mounting it in frame. 

This allows the bees to make drone comb as needed. On used comb I will cut a damaged or malformed section out and put it back.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Guys/gals - I have been running solid plastic foundation for years and for what it worth I can tell you in my operation - wouldn't run nothing else. assembling/painting boxes takes enough time. Getting the plastic foundation drawn out requires a major honey flow. Have found out over the YEARS of using this - no honey flow - no drawing of any kind of foundation. As far as waxing on the plastic - I have seen the bees strip the wax coating from the foundation and use it elsewhere in the hive - just to return to these frames later and draw them out when the population builds up. What I am trying to say - Strong bees and honey flow = drawn foundation. I run bees on tallow in southeast Texas. Big flow on and a good double of bees will draw/fill 3 deep supers of straight foundation. If it doesn't get drawn on the flow - its back in the barn until next year.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

one other thing - Brood nests hate plastic foundation. Draw it on a honey flow -extract it - then move it into the brood nest. Putting plastic in a brood nest is just asking for burr comb. Also if your timing is right - catch the bees just starting to draw the plastic foundation out - this is also a good time to move it into the brood nest before the honey is capped. Bees will remove the honey and move it up to the honey super and the queen will get busy filling that new pulled comb with eggs. been running pierco/plastic foundation on a 300 hive operation for over 15 years.


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

jwcarlson, thank you! I'm in the same boat...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

sc-bee said:


> I have heard of a few folks drawing it on like a crayon... any thoughts on that?


For spot repairs it works fine, but you rub wax like that on 500 deep foundations and let me know how you feel.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> For spot repairs it works fine, but you rub wax like that on 500 deep foundations and let me know how you feel.


I did just 5 frames that way, it took quite a while. I had to microwave the wax to get it soft enough to come off. Then I took a hair dryer to melt it into place, it took quite a while.

Melting then dipping or brushing would have been much faster, and probably done a better job.


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