# Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements



## BEES4U

I need a good recommendation of a lab that can do a complete analysis of the contents in our trial formula # 11 which has been field tested and it shows some very good results.
Comments are needed.
Regards,
Ernie


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## Hambone

I have read that this is where Keith sends his.

http://www.silliker.com


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## Matt Beekman

Mind posting your recipe for formula # 11?


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## BEES4U

Derek,
Thank you for the web site.
I thought that I would include some bacon tid bits and drippings so that the bees have their cholesterol.
I sent them an e-mail.
Ernie


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## BEES4U

Mind posting your recipe for formula # 11? 

I need to get the material analyzed 1st
As all of you know research and development is expensive and on-going.

I checked my Cordovan and Carniolan recent queen cellings and the queens are laying good egg patterns. How are your honey's doing?
Ernie


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## Hambone

> I thought that I would include some bacon tid bits and drippings so that the bees have their cholesterol.



Who needs microbes when you have bacon drippings?


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## Keith Jarrett

Matt Beekman said:


> Mind posting your recipe for formula # 11?


Chef would be proud.


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## Hambone

Well he is a teacher now. That could be one of his students.


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## BEES4U

*The following information is very valuable. *

*It's a wise person that can take data applied in one area/application and transfer/apply it to another/new area like honeybees!*

http://www.merricks.com/intestinal.htm#management

*Ingredients/Supplements *

*Many ingredients and products are now available that demonstrate beneficial effects in the calf's digestive tract.* The following list provides a brief description of several of the more common ingredients or supplements fed to calves to enhance or complement digestive and absorptive functions. 

*Direct-Fed Microbials (DFMs). * DFMs are beneficial organisms that colonize in the digestive tract, produce organic acids and other beneficial compounds and compete against pathogens. A wide variety of organisms are used as DFMs. The primary DFMs used to colonize the small intestine are lactic acid bacteria (LAB). They are very rapid colonizers in the small intestine and compete very effectively against pathogens such as E coli. LAB have also been shown to enhance the production of protective mucin in the small intestine. 

*Fructooligosaccharides (FOS). * FOS are naturally occurring plant sugars that provide a source of nutrients for beneficial bacteria in the large intestine such as Bifidobacteria. FOS have been shown to increase volatile fatty acid (VFA) production in the large intestine and improve calcium and magnesium absorption. FOS cannot be digested by the animal or by pathogenic bacteria. 

*Mannan oligosaccharides (MOS). * Mannan oligosaccharides contain yeast cell wall fragments. These fragments contain mannans which competitively bind gram negative bacteria, preventing their attachment to the intestinal mucosa. Since mannans are not digestible in the intestine, the bound pathogen likely passes through the digestive tract. MOS may also stimulate antibody production and enhance intestinal structure and function. 

*Plant extracts/spices. * This group of feed ingredients includes allicin (garlic extract) and a variety of spices. These ingredients vary in their modes of action but proposed activities include stimulation of digestive enzymes, antimicrobial activity, immune stimulation, improved VFA production and feed intake enhancement. 

*Animal Plasma. * Animal plasma is obtained by centrifuging whole blood into its major components, plasma and blood cells. The two main types of animal plasma are bovine (ruminant) and porcine (swine). These products provide a source of both protein and immunoglobulins, primarily IgG and are usually added to milk or milk replacer. In the digestive tract, IgG has a direct affect on pathogens and may also have a direct effect on the intestinal mucosa. 

*Glutamine/Glutamate * are amino acids that have been shown to improve villi height and overall intestinal morphology during periods of stress and following injury. Both glutamine and glutamate provide a local fuel source for enterocytes, the absorptive cells of intestinal villi. 
References and Reviews 

1. Austgen, L; Bowen, R.A; Rouge, M. Pathophysiology of the digestive system. Colorado State University. 2001. http:/arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks. 

2. Ayabe, T., D.P. Satchell, C.L.Wilson, etc. Secretion of microbicidal alpha-defensins by intestinal Paneth cells in response to bacteria. Nature Immunol 1: 113-118, 2000. 

3. Fisher, E.W.; McEwan, A.D. Death in neonatal calf diarrhoea. Pt. II: The role of oxygen and potassium. Br. Vet. J. 123:4-7, 1967. 

4. Hecht, G. Innate mechanisms of epithelial host defense: spotlight on intestine. Am J Physiol Cell Physiol 227:C351-C358, 1999 

5. Heinrichs, A.J., C.M. Jones, B.S. Heinrichs: Effects of mannan ologosaccharides or antibiotics in neonatal diets on health and growth of dairy calves. J Dairy Sci 86:4064-4069, 2003 

6. Karam, S. Lineage commitment and maturation of epithelial cells in the gut. Frontiers in Bioscience 4:d286-298, 1999. 

7. Lillard, J.R., P.N. Boyaka, O. Chertov, etc. Mechanisms for induction of acquired host immunity by neutrophil peptide defensins. Proc Natl Acad Sci 96:651-656,1999. 

8. Stappenbeck, T.S., L.V. Hooper, J.I. Gordon: Developmental regulation of intestinal angiogenesis by indigenous microbes via paneth cells. Proc Natl Acad Sci Nov. 2002 

9. Naylor, J.M: A retrospective study of the relationship between clinical signs and severity of acidosis in diarrheic calves. Can. Vet. J., 1989; 30:577-580. 

10. Naylor, J.M: Severity and nature of acidosis in diarrheic calves over and under one week of age. Can. Vet. J., 1987; 28:168-173. 

11. Tarver, A.P., D.P. Clark, G. Diamond, etc: Enteric beta-defensin: molecular cloning and characterization of a gene with inducible intestinal epithelial cell expression associated with cryptosporidium parvum infection. Infection and Immunity 66:1045-1056, 1998. 

12. Tyler, Howard: Personal communication. Iowa State University, Ames Iowa. 


I was using boluses from a local dairy, Ador Farms, to give to a calf with scours back in the late 60's to inocculate the calf digestive sytem when it had scours.
Now you know where I am doing my research!
Ernie


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## BEES4U

Tuesday, August 18, 2009
This has some potential for bees. ( it contains the LABs)

Probiotic V™, is the only fully live, stabilized microbial system available in the marketplace. Micro blended in a unique formula with live cell yeast culture for enzyme activity. Live microbials often aid in appetites, digestion of fiber nutrients (alfalfa, grains) gut integrity - factors that often lessen the occurence of colic and/or pathogenic coliform activity. Contains 10x the level of live microbial system as many competitive products.

Probiotic V™ contains a concentrated microbial system, *consisting of live, stablized lactic acid producing bacteria. Probiotic V contains four (6) strains of live stabilized lactic acid producing bacteria (probiotics), plus live cell yeast culture, used as a microbial supplement. *
Note: Probiotic V™ can be used in conjunction with other supplements containing moderate or low levels of live microbials (Mega -Mag®, Biotin 22X™, etc.) as *several billion beneficial bacteria are needed to be active in small intestines daily to establish and/or maintain gut integrity during training, performance and stress conditions.*

Comment?
Ernie


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## BEES4U

Here's another product:
MRM
WHEY
18 g Protein/ Serving
TYPICAL AMINO ACID PROFILE PER 25.5 g SCOOP
NAME mg/scoop
ALANINE 800 
ARGININE 400
ASPARTIC ACID	1910
CYSTEINE	220
GLUTAMIC ACID	3000
L-GLUTAMINE	1000
GLYCINE 400
HISTIDINE	250
ISOLEUCINE	1110
LEUCINE 1630
LYSINE 1540
METHIONINE	330
PHENYLALANINE	530
PROLINE 1070
SERINE 910
THREONINE	1040
TRYPTOPHAN	380
TYROSINE	440
VALINE 1040
_____________________________________
Table 1. Amino acid content of average pollen expressed as percent of crude protein
CONSTITUENT	Average pollen(crude protein, 26.3%)
ïpercent
Arginine 5.3
Histidine 2.5
Isoleucine	5.1
Leucine 7.1
Lysine 6.4
Methionine	1.9
Phenyalalamine	4.1
Threomine	4.1
Trypotophane	1.4
Valine 5.8
____________________________________-

Comments,
Ernie


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## BEES4U

Still working on the pollen patties.
I located a source for the vitamines and some other goodies.
Now, I am working on a source for pure soy isolate, 94% protein!
Ernie


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## Hambone

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/browseproducts/Soy-Protein-Isolate-44-LB.HTML

Not sure if it is a good price or not.


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## BEES4U

Not sure if it is a good price or not.
Very good prices compared to a health foods store!
Ernie


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## Tom G. Laury

Requirements for brood rearing:

Don't forget the Inositol. EI.


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## BEES4U

Tom, thanks for the reminder about inositol
The following is from a web site selling pollen.

*Vitamins *

Provitamin A 
B-1 Thiamine 
B-2 Riboflavin 
B-3 Niacin 
B-6 Pyridoxine 
Panthothenic acid 
Biotin 
B-12 (cyanocobalamin) 
Folic acid 
Choline 
Inositol 
Vitamin C 
Vitamin D 
Vitamin E 
Vitamin K 
Rutin

* Minerals*

Calcium 
Phosphorus 
Potassium 
Sulfur 
Sodium 
Chlorine 
Magnesium 
Iron 
Manganese 
Copper 
Iodine 
Zinc 
Silicon 
Molybedenum 
Boron 
Titanium 




*Enzymes Proteins - Amino Acids * 
Amylase 
Diatase 
Saccharase 
Pectase 
Phosphatase 
Catalase 
Disphorase 
Cozymase 
Cytochrome systems 
Lactic dehyrogenase 
Succinic dehydrogenase 
24-Oxidoreductases 
21-Transferases 
11-Lyases 
5-Isomerases 
Pepsin 
Trypsin 
Isoleucine 
Leucine 
Lysine 
Methionine 
Phenylalanine 
Threonine 
Tryptophan 
Valine 
Histidine 
Arginine 
Cystine 
Tyrosine 
Alanine 
Aspartic Acid 
Glutamic acid 
Hydroxyproline 
Proline 
Serine 




*Others *
Nucleic acids 
Flavonoids 
Phenolic acid 
Tarpenes 
Nucleosides 
Auxins 
Fructose 
Glucose 
Brassins 
Gibberellins 
Kinins 
Vernine 
Guanine 
Xanthine 
Hypoxalthine 
Nuclein 
Amines 
Lecithin 
Xanthophylls 
Crocetin 
Zeaxanthin 
Lycopene 
Hexodecanal 
Alpha-amino-butyric acid 
Monoglycerides 
Diglycerides 
Triglycerides 
Pentosans 

Regards,
Ernie


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## BEES4U

*here is a good example of PROBIOTICS*

Probiotics by Bio-Alternatives 

This product is vegetarian and free of citrus, corn, dairy, egg, gluten, sodium, soy, wheat, yeast, added sugars, synthetic dye, artificial flavorings and preservatives.

SUPPLEMENT FACTS: 

Serving Size - 1 Capsule 
Servings per Container - 120 
Each capsule delivers 5 billion CFU Probiotic Bacteria Complex containing: 

*Lactobacillus acidophilus 1.25 billion *
Lactobacillus rhamnosus 1 billion 
Bifidobacterium Lactis 750 million 
Lactobacillus casei 500 million 
Bifidobacterium breve 500 million 
Bifidobacterium longum 500 million 
Bifidobacterium bifidum 250 million 
Streptococcus thermophilus 250 million
Fructo oligosaccharides (FOS) 220 mg
Other Ingredients: rice flour, vegetable cellulose (capsule) 
SUGGESTED USE:

INITIAL: Child 1 capsule, Adult 2 capsules, Senior 3 capsules after breakfast and dinner until results occur. 
MAINTENANCE: Child 1 capsule, Adult 2 capsules, Senior 3 capsules after breakfast. 
Regards,
Ernie


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## BEES4U

*Here's one source of IPS (Inositol Hexophosphate) >400 mg *

Iso-Rich Soy, Vegetarian Soy Protein Powder, 892 g, Jarrow Formulas 

Use Iso-Rich Soy Powder as a dietary supplement to increase your intake of protein and soy phytonutrients. 

Supplemental Facts 
Serving Size 2 rounded Tbsp. (29 g) 
Servings Per Container 31 
Amount Per Serving % DV
Calories 110 
Calories from Fat 5 
Total Fat <1 g 1% 
Saturated Fat 0 g 0% 
Cholesterol 0 mg 0% 
Sodium 370 mg 15% 
Total Carbohydrates 0 g 0% 
Dietary Fiber 0 g 0% 
Sugars 0 g 0% 
Protein 25 g 
Vitamin A 0 IU 0% 
Vitamin C 0 mg 0% 
Calcium 29 mg 4% 
Iron 4 mg 25% 
Isoflavones 56 mg 
Genistin/Genistein 28 mg 
Daidzin/Daidein 23 mg 
Glycitin/Glycitein 5 mg 
*IPS (Inositol Hexophosphate) >400 mg *
Saponins >200 mg 

Ingredients: Soy protein isolate (Non-GMO) and natural vanilla flavor. 
100% natural, No corn, yeast, wheat, dairy products, preservatives, artificial flavors, sweeteners or colors have been added. 

Suitable for vegans. This product is packaged by weight not by volume. May contain traces of peanuts/nuts.

Suggested Use:
Mix 2 rounded tablespoons (29 g) of powder with 6-8 oz. fruit juice, milk, or your favorite beverage or you may:
Blend powder with liquid, ice and fruit for smoothies.
Mix into cold or cooked cereals.
Add to soups, sauces, casseroles, meatballs, patties, baked items (bread, muffins, etc.) or frozen desserts. 

This product contains naturally occuring phytoestrogens. Do not take more than 2 servings per day. Do not give to children under 12 years old.


Notice: Individual results may vary. You should always consult with your physician before starting this product or any health-related program.
Disclaimer: The product descriptions and the statements on this page are from manufacturers and/or distributors and have not been evaluated by VitaSprings or the FDA. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. VitaSprings does not imply any medical claims from the customer reviews on this Iso-Rich Soy, Vegetarian Soy Protein Powder product on this website.

Regards,
Ernie


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## BEES4U

Inositol has a big spectrum of use in humans, now what about bees/

*PURE INOSITOL POWDER. *

BIO-ALTERNATIVES is pleased to offer PURE INOSITOL POWDER. Inositol is a member of the B vitamin family. It is utilized in fat metabolism, helping the liver to eliminate excess fat, reducing cholesterol levels, helps prevent hardening of the arteries, and may protect nerve fibers from excess glucose damage. *Diabetics are prone to over excrete this substance and supplemental intake has been found beneficial for the prevention of neuropathy. *Inositol has a natural calming effect and may be used in the treatment of anxiety, depression, and obsessive-compulsive disorder without the side effects of prescription medications.
Inositol has been listed(1) as an essential element in the nutritional treatment of Alcoholism, Cirrhosis of the Liver, & Diabetes. Very Important for Glaucoma, Hair Loss, Hepatitis, Multiple Sclerosis, & Raynaud's Disease. Important in Depression, Gallbladder Disorders, Hemorrhoids, Pancreatitis, Vertigo, & Helpful for Circulatory Problems, High Blood Pressure (Hypertension), Insomnia, Obesity, & Premenstrual Syndrome.


Regards,
Ernie


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## BEES4U

Here is a research report that is very interestig, *and it's applied to bees!*

*Brood Rearing by Caged Honey Bees in Response to Inositol *

IngentaConnect Brood Rearing by Caged Honey Bees in Response to Inositol and Cer... 
Abstract:

Caged colonies of honey bees, Apis mellifera L., were unable to rear brood beyond a larval age of 3-4 days when fed an artificial diet containing proteins, carbohydrates, lipids, vitamins, and minerals. However, a final concentration of 4.5 mg inositol, a vitamin, in each gram of the artificial food, enabled bees to rear normal brood through the adult stage during a test period of 72 days. Furthermore, addition of 3.5 milligrams of pollen ash per gram of artificial diet also enabled bees to rear all stages of brood during a test period of 44 days. Additions of both pollen ash and inositol to the artificial diet gave no better results than either alone. 

Bees could rear all stages of brood when a concentrated aqueous extract of crushed pollen grains was mixed with the artificial diet. The concentrate could be prepared either by lyophilization or drying at 100°C in a laboratory oven. No further characterization of the active component(s) in the concentrate has been made. A completely liquid formulation failed to sustain brood rearing. Incorporation of several sterols in addition to cholesterol in artificial diet also failed to sustain brood rearing. 
Document Type: Research article 

Regards,
Ernie


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## BEES4U

*ROYAL JELLY ANALYSIS*

*This report gives us the constituens of royal jelly and their micrograms per 1 gram.*

on analyzing royal jelly found that it is rich in proteins and vitamins of the B complex and especially in pantothenic acid, 

The Banting Institute of Ontario, on analyzing royal jelly found that it is rich in proteins and vitamins of the B complex and especially in pantothenic acid, the vitamin B which has been associated with longevity and in restoring gray hair to its original color. The United States Department of Agriculture has said that one gram (1/30 oz.) contains the following:

Vitamin B1 (Thiamin )-1.5 to 7.4 micrograms

Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin)-5.3 to 10.0 micrograms

Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine)-2.2 to 10.2 micrograms

Niacin (Nicotinic acid)-91.0 to 149.0 micrograms

Pantothenic Acid-65.0 to 200.0 micrograms

Biotin-0.9 to 3.7 micrograms

Inositol-78.0 to 150.0 micrograms

Folic Acid-0.16 to 0.50 micrograms

Vitamin C-a trace

Vitamin E-none
Regards,
Ernie


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## BEES4U

*Here's one source of Inositol:*

TWINLAB
INOSITOL CAPS
CRYSTALLINE PURE DIETARY SUPPLEMENT
500 mg CAPSULES.
$15.00/100 caplets. = 0.15/caplet.
Regards,
Ernie


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## Countryboy

_$15.00/100 caplets! = $1.50/caplet_

$0.15 /caplet, not $1.50.


Also, check eBay prices:

Inositol - 750mg 100 capsules $10.48 and Free Shipping *$0.10 /capsule.* http://cgi.ebay.com/Jarrow-Inositol...in_0?hash=item5d2442bd03&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Probiotic Capsules - 120 caps $20.52 incl shipping. *$0.17 /capsule.* http://cgi.ebay.com/Food-Science-of...in_0?hash=item5881dfef85&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14


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## BEES4U

$0.15 /caplet, not $1.50.
Oops. I hit my diet to much today. Thanks for catching the mistake I will do an edit.
Thanks for the information!
Ernie


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## BEES4U

I am picking up 100 gallons of Type 55 corn syrup this Wednesday to be used in my Pollen Supplement Patties.
I will post the cost per pound later.
Ernie


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## BEES4U

I picked up 1,290 pounds of the Type 55 at $0.31/Lb.
Ernie


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## Countryboy

_It's a wise person that can take data applied in one area/application and transfer/apply it to another/new area like honeybees!_

I've been thinking about that a lot lately. I think one area that people often demand the best feeds are pets. People often pamper their pets, and ignore the economic aspects, simply trying to baby their pet out of love. (Many folks consider a pet to be a part of the family.)

I happened to glance at the bag of cat food I feed my cat. This is Special Kitty Original blend dry cat food, sold by WalMart for about $10 for an 18 pound bag.

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 34.00%
Crude Fat (min) 11.00%
Crude Fiber (max) 4.50%
Moisture (max) 10.00%
Linoleic Acid (min) 1.25%
Arachidonic Acid (min) 0.02%
Calcium (min) 1.00%
Phosphorus (min) 0.80%
Selenium (min) 0.30mg/kg
Vitamin A (min) 10,000IU/kg 
Vitamin E (min) 70IU/kg
Taurine (min) 0.15%

Ingredients
Chicken by-product meal, ground yellow corn, corn gluten meal, ground wheat, soybean meal, animal fat (preserved with BHA and citric acid), brewers rice, natural flavor (chicken and fish), brewers dried yeast, sodium bisulfate, calcium carbonate, salt, potassium chloride, monocalcium,phosphate, choline chloride, taurine, fish meal, iron oxide, vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, niacin, vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, manganous oxide, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), sodium selenite, folic acid, calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement, cobalt carbonate.

I have a small grist mill, and it wouldn't be difficult to turn cat food (or dog or horse or rabbit pellets) into a flour you could mix with sugar syrup to make a protein patty.

Has anyone ever tried using pet feed to make protein patties? If so, how did it work for them?


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## BEES4U

31 August 2009
I bought my Probiotics today.

Providing 3 Billion CFY
It contains 3 _Lactobacillus_ and
4 _Bifidobacterium species_
The formula is getting better.
Regards,
Ernie


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## BEES4U

Ingredients
Chicken by-product meal, ground yellow corn, corn gluten meal, ground wheat, *soybean meal*, animal fat (preserved with BHA and citric acid), brewers rice, natural flavor (chicken and fish), *brewers dried yeast, *sodium bisulfate, calcium carbonate, salt, potassium chloride, monocalcium,phosphate, choline chloride, taurine, fish meal, iron oxide, vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, niacin, vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, manganous oxide, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), sodium selenite, folic acid, calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement, cobalt carbonate.

Here's a an old ratio:
3:1
Where the 3 is soy flour and the 1 is brewers yeast.
HFCS will make your patties more attractive to the bees and it prevent drying out because it's hygroscoptic like honey.

Ernie


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## Countryboy

_I bought my Probiotics today._

Where did you get them, and how much did you pay? I purchased 2 bottles of these http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380136058757&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT the other day. With shipping I got 240 capsules for $39.49. Sixteen and a half cents each capsule.
They are 5 billion CFU total, plus 220mg of fructo oligosaccharides
Lacto acidophilus 1.25 billion 
Lacto rhamnosus 1 billion
Bifido lactis 750 million
Lacto casei 500 million
Bifido breve 500 million
Bifido longum 500 million
Bifido bifidum 250 million
Streptococcus thermophilus 250 million

How do you feed the probiotics to the bees? So far, my method is pulling apart the capsule, and dumping the powder contents into syrup I am feeding to weak hives. Would it be better to mix the probiotic powder into patties?

What rate should we be giving to the bees? (Or are we still at the guessing stage?) I have been using a whole capsule per hive when feeding.

_Here's a an old ratio:
3:1
Where the 3 is soy flour and the 1 is brewers yeast.
HFCS will make your patties more attractive to the bees and it prevent drying out because it's hygroscoptic like honey._

I have never made patties. Is there a specific ratio I add HFCS, or do I just mix it to cookie dough consistency?


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## BEES4U

http://www.mannlakeltd.com/publications/cat2009/page29.pdf

Does anyone have some information about these two Mann Lake products:
Pro-Len a feeding stimulent
and
Pro Health a digestive boost.

Thank you, 
Ernie


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## BEES4U

:scratch:
Do I mix all the dry ingredients into the Type 55 HFCS and then the oils. (Corn oil and Canola oil.)
or, as they do in baking: add the oil into the dry ingredients 1st
Comments?
Ernie


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## JBJ

I like to combine all the dry ingredients in the mixer then gradually add the wet ones until the desired consistency is obtained. The syrup can very a little but I get the same amount of oil in every batch.


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## BEES4U

I like to combine all the dry ingredients in the mixer

Thank you for the information.
Ernie


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## BEES4U

06 September 2009
My recent and updated pollen supplement formula comes in at* 22% crude protein!*

Regards,
Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett

BEES4U said:


> 06 September 2009
> My recent and updated pollen supplement formula comes in at* 22% crude protein!*
> 
> Regards,
> Ernie


HI Ernie, 22% good for you! Is that the sub that you made with egg?


PS.... is the water hot yet.


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## BEES4U

HI Ernie, 22% good for you! Is that the sub that you made with egg?

Yes.
I added eggs to give the bees a diversified pollen supplement.
Regards,
Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett

Hey Ernie,

got those eggs cooking yet???? I'm getting hungry. lol


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## BEES4U

Good morning Keith,
got those eggs cooking yet?

I have another batch to boil in a few days. It seems odd to not make them into deviled eggs!
I understand that you sell dried eggs.
What is the price/sack to make a minimum purchase?
Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett

BEES4U said:


> Good morning Keith,
> got those eggs cooking yet?
> 
> I have another batch to boil in a few days. It seems odd to not make them into deviled eggs!
> I understand that you sell dried eggs.
> What is the price/sack to make a minimum purchase?
> Ernie


Ernie, I don't sell egg at this time. You however have a good method with FRESH egg.


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## slickbrightspear

anybody ever try substituting some buckwheat flour for the soy flour. not taking out all of the soy just some of it.


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## bfriendly

Ernie,

thank you for all the input. 

I tried small batches just to see if the bees would take it/ how quickly (using raw egg). I also have some sitting out so I can take a guess as to how long it takes for it to spoil.

One with just the yolk, uncooked,
One with the whole egg (white included)

I didn't see any noticeable difference in consumption rate (also compared to patty w/ no egg)


~Are you using the egg whites/ if not what do you do with them?

~Any more info about the suitability of egg white in pollen sub mix is appreciated.

~Is your protein content calculated or tested? If calculated would you be willing to share info you are using for the hard boiled egg yolk?

thank you.


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## BEES4U

bfriendly,
One with just the yolk, uncooked,
One with the whole egg (white included).*Bees can not digest the egg whites.*

I didn't see any noticeable difference in consumption rate (also compared to patty w/ no egg)


~Are you using the egg whites/ if not what do you do with them?
*I gave most of them to a friend to feed her dogs, i fed some to my dog and I ate some*
~Any more info about the suitability of egg white in pollen sub mix is appreciated.
*I have some very good information that I will post after my nap today.*

~Is your protein content calculated or tested? 

If calculated would you be willing to share info you are using for the hard boiled egg yolk? 
Here's some of my data that I am currently using.
*Calculated: Dried egg yolks are 2gm of protein/5 gm serving where a serving is = 2.5 teaspoons. So, 2gm/5gm = 40% protein*
_____________________________________________________

Nutrient Breakdown 


ASSAYED NUTRIENT VALUES FOR A LARGE RAW EGG*
Based on 59 g. shell weight with 50 g. total liquid whole egg, 33.4 g. white and 16.6 g. yolk 
NUTRIENT AND UNIT	WHOLE	WHITE	YOLK
Proximate
Water	37.66	29.33	8.1
Food energy--calories.	75	17	59
*Protein (N x 6.25)--g.	6.25	3.52	2.78*
Total lipid--g.	5.01	--	5.12
Total carbohydrate--g.	0.61	0.34	0.3
Ash--g.	0.47	0.21	0.29
_________________________________________________

*Composition of chicken egg yolk
15.86 g./100gms= 15.86 or 16 % Protein.

Chicken egg, yolk, raw, freshNutritional value per 100 g (3.5 oz)
Energy 320 kcal 1330 kJ*
Carbohydrates 
3.59 g
Fat
26.54 g
Protein
15.86 g
Water
52.31 g
Vitamin A equiv. 381 μg 
42%
Thiamine (Vit. B1) 0.176 mg 
14%
Riboflavin (Vit. B2) 0.528 mg 
35%
Pantothenic acid (B5) 2.990 mg 
60%
Folate (Vit. B9) 146 μg 
37%
Calcium 129 mg
13%
Iron 2.73 mg
22%
Magnesium 5 mg
1% 
Phosphorus 390 mg
56%
Potassium 109 mg 
2%
Zinc 2.30 mg
23%
Choline
682.3 mg
Cholesterol
1234 mg
_______________________________

I hope that I didn't give you to much data.

Good Luck,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

anybody ever try substituting some buckwheat flour for the soy flour

Ans.
It will depend on the avaiability, particle size, digestability and % Crude protein.
The soy flour that we use is toasted for better nutrition.
Regards,
Ernie


----------



## bfriendly

Ernie,
Could you please elaborate on why toasted soy is preferred vs other options? 

Also I have heard several times / read online that one should not use soy meal (I have seen some where the particle size is fine enough), I can not find why you should not use it. I find soy meal listed as an ingredient several places online, such as: here but I wonder if this could be a misprint.

Slick, I have no information to offer about buckwheat, but like you, I wonder about other products (particularly flax as mentioned in another post). I was able to find this: The nutritional value of flax meal for swine

Thanks for all the valuable info in this thread.


----------



## BEES4U

Here's one source:
http://www.honeybee.com.au/Library/Beefeeds.html



Soy flour – Soy flour is the main non floral protein supplement for honey bees rations. 

It comes in two forms, either Expeller press which has 6% soy oil, or Defat soy flour (chemically extracted) which has only 2% soy oil. The crude protein level is 48% 50%. Soy flour is more of an adult bee feed and appears to assist in making adult bees more active while on a honey flow. 

Expeller press soy flour is more palatable to the bees than defat soy flour. This was demonstrated in trials conducted on the preference or palatability of protein feed for bees, Expeller press soy flour is good when there is limited pollen available. Defat soy flour is satisfactory when reasonable volumes of low quality ground flora pollen is being collected by the bees. 

Most Australian pollens have low levels of the essential amino acid iso leucine. Soy flour has reasonably high quantities of this amino acid, which makes it a useful supplement in supplying additional total protein and iso-leucine. 

Soy flour is reasonably cheap being around 80¢/kg. For this reason in any ration it can be used up to ¾ by weight of the total ration. 
Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

Here"s another source:
http://www.entomology.msstate.edu/newsletters/bee-news/beenews0306.htm


Several pollen supplements/substitutes have been used but soy flour has been the ingredient of choice because of its attractiveness to honey bees, availability, cost and high protein content. No pollen supplement/substitute entirely replaces the nutritional value of pollen. Because soy flour is low in vitamin B complex, yeast (Brewers, bakers) is commonly added to soy flour in the preparation of pollen substitutes/supplements. Soy flour is produced by a variety of methods, but �expeller proceed soy� (obtainable from Kelley�s) is superior because it has the highest protein level and the lowest level of anti-nutritional factors. Soy flour is either fed alone or as the main ingredient in pollen supplements. Recipes for supplements/substitutes are varied and can be adjusted according to the following:

Pollen - 10-25%

Soy Flour - 20-100%

Yeast - 20-25%

Sugar/honey/water - 20-50%
Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

Do any of you use this , Ascorbic acid, in your Pollen Supplement Patties or do you use lemon juice?

Product Name:
Ascorbic Acid (L-Ascorbic Acid), USP, Food Grade
*$135.00/Lb!*
I know where there are a lot of ripe lemons and I might stat extracting the juice vs the high price of Ascorbic acide.
Regards,
Ernie


----------



## Tom G. Laury

Hey Ernie: Find a Paramount orchard and I'll come down and help you.


----------



## loggermike

Ernie, heres the Vitamin C I use in pollen sub:
http://www.puritan.com/c-vitamins-102/vitamin-c-crystals-003162?NewPage=1
---Mike


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Tom G. Laury said:


> Hey Ernie: Find a Paramount orchard and I'll come down and help you.


Good one Tom. lol Maybe Ernie will have eggs for lunch.


----------



## BEES4U

Hey Ernie: Find a Paramount orchard and I'll come down and help you. 

Ther's one outside town about 5 miles. 
Man, those boiled eggs are a killer on my GI tract.
I think that I should take some of the bees probiotics so that I am allowed back in Denny's LOL.
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

Ernie, heres the Vitamin C I use in pollen sub:

Mike, thank you for the source. I should have checked them out too.:doh:
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

*Here's some history on soy protein:*

*Soy protein {90%protein (N x 6.25) on a moisture-free basis*} has been available since 1936 for its functional properties. In 1936, American organic chemist Percy Lavon Julian designed the world's first plant for the isolation of industrial-grade soy protein. The largest use of industrial grade protein was and still is for paper coatings, in which it serves as a pigment binder. However, Dr. Julian's plant must have also been the source of the "soy protein isolate" which Ford's Robert Boyer and Frank Calvert spun into an artificial silk that was then tailored into that now famous "silk is soy" suit that Henry Ford wore on special occasions. *The plant's eventual daily output of forty tons of soy protein isolate made the *Soya Products Division into Glidden's most profitable division.

At the start of WWII Glidden sent a sample of Julian's isolated soy protein to National Foam System Inc.{today a unit of Kidde Fire Fighting} of Philadelphia,PA which used it to develop *Aero-Foam the US Navy's beloved fire-fighting bean soup;* and while not exactly the brainchild of Percy Lavon Julian it was the meticulous care given to the preparation of the soy protein that made the fire fighting foam possible. When a hydrolyzate of isolated soy protein was fed into a water stream, the mixture was converted into a foam by means of an aerating nozzle. *The soy protein foam was used to smother oil and gasoline fires aboard ships and was particularly useful on aircraft carriers. It saved the lives of thousands of sailors. [1]*
In 1958, Central Soya of Fort Wayne, Indiana acquired Julian's Soy Products Division (Chemurgy) of the Glidden Paint Company, Chicago. Recently, Central Soya's (Bunge) Protein Division, in January,2003, joined/merged with DuPont's soy protein (Solae) business, which in 1997 had acquired Ralston Purina's soy division, Protein Technologies International (PTI) in St. Louis. Eighth Continent, an "ersatz" soy milk, is a combined "venture" product of DuPont's and General Mills.

*Food-grade soy protein isolate first became available on October 2, 1959 *with the dedication of Central Soya's edible soy isolate, Promine D, production facility on the Glidden Company industrial site in Chicago. An edible soy isolate and edible spun soy fiber has also been available since 1960 from the Ralston Purina Company in St. Louis, who had hired Boyer and Calvert. In 1987, PTI became the world's leading maker of isolated soy protein.

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

*Inositol reminder!*

However, a final concentration of 4.5 mg inositol, a vitamin, in each gram of the artificial food,* enabled bees to rear normal brood *through the adult stage during a test period of 72 days.

Are any of you adding this to your Pollen Supplements?

Comments?
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

The following data is very interesting!
Abstract
Use of prebiotics, nondigestible dietary ingredients that beneficially affect the host by selectively stimulating the growth of and/or activating the metabolism of health-promoting bacteria in the intestinal tract, is a novel concept in aquaculture. Two separate feeding trials were conducted to evaluate graded levels of a commercial prebiotic Grobiotic™AE, a mixture of partially autolyzed brewers yeast, dairy ingredient components and dried fermentation products, in the diet of hybrid striped bass, as compared to partially autolyzed brewers yeast* (Brewtech®). *The basal diet in both trials was formulated to contain *40% protein, *10% lipid and an estimated digestible energy level of 3.5 kcal/g. Two levels (1% and 2% of diet) of Grobiotic™AE and brewers yeast were added to the basal diet with menhaden fish meal and menhaden oil adjusted to provide isonitrogenous and isolipidic diets. Each diet was fed to five (trial 1) or three (trial 2) replicate groups of juvenile hybrid striped bass in 110-l aquaria twice daily at rates approximating apparent satiation for 7 weeks (trial 1) or 4 weeks (trial 2).

Enhanced growth performance was generally observed in fish fed the diets supplemented with Grobiotic™AE or brewers yeast compared to the basal diet after 7 weeks of feeding in trial 1.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...on=0&_userid=10&md5=73833c015cdb6e5251192b8a7

Regards,
Ernieedb9af7


----------



## BEES4U

Up-date on Ernie's "Pollen Puddding Supplement."
I used some pH indicator strips, non-bleeding type, and they all indicated a pH of 5.0 which I think is good.

Comments,
Ernie


----------



## Keith Jarrett

BEES4U said:


> Up-date on Ernie's "Pollen Puddding Supplement."
> pH of 5.0 which I think is good.
> 
> Comments,
> Ernie


Yes I have a comment.... lol What about the protein & fat levels ?

Lets get down too the ham & eggs.


----------



## BEES4U

What about the protein & fat levels ?

Protein: 16.46%

Sugar: 48.47%

Pollen: 18.36%

Fat: The % is to be determined. ( I added a 50:50 mix of Canola oil and corn oil.)

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## Keith Jarrett

BEES4U said:


> What about the protein & fat levels ?
> 
> Protein: 16.46%
> 
> Sugar: 48.47%
> 
> Pollen: 18.36%
> egards,
> Ernie



Ernie, Protein & pollen ? Is this done by a lab Ernie or on a spread sheet?

Keith


----------



## BEES4U

I am currently working on submitting some Pollen Supplement samples.
My mind is also on a local brush fire.
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

here is a very good report:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=242630

Research Project: Improve Nutrition for Honey Bee Colonies to Stimulate Population Growth, Increase Queen Quality, and Reduce the Impact of Varroa Mites 
Location: Honey Bee Research 

Title: The Importance of Microbes in Nutrition and Health of Honey Bee Colonies Part-3: Where Do We Go From Here? 


*Authors 

Degrandi-Hoffman, Gloria 
Vreeland, Russell - 
Sammataro, Diana 
Alarcon Jr, Ruben 


Submitted to: American Bee Journal 
Publication Type: Trade Journal 
Publication Acceptance Date: July 20, 2009 
Publication Date: August 1, 2009 *Citation: Hoffman, G.D., Vreeland, R., Sammataro, D., Alarcon Jr, R.N. 2009. The Importance of Microbes in Nutrition and Health of Honey Bee Colonies Part-3: Where Do We Go From Here?. American Bee Journal 149:755-757. 

Interpretive Summary: This manuscript is the third part of a three part series on the importance of microbes in nutrition and health of honey bee colonies. In the first two parts of the series, we discussed the role of microbes in honey bee colony food processing and digestion and their possible contribution in the reduction of pathogens. There also was a discussion of factors such as antibiotics and pesticides that could compromise the growth and diversity of a colony's microbial community and possibly impact the colony's health. There is little known abut the beneficial microbes in honey bees and bee bread, and what is known is largely from studies conducted several decades ago. In the third part of this series, we present descriptions of studies that are needed such as metagenomic and functional metagenomic analyses of bee bread to expand our understanding of the contributions of microbes to food processing and utilization in honey bee colonies. 
Technical Abstract: Microbial communities in honey bee colonies are essential for food processing and digestion. Symbiotic microbes also might contribute to the reduction of pathogens in the hive by synthesizing antimicrobial compounds. Environmental contaminants such as pesticides, fungicides and antibiotics could compromise the growth and diversity of a colony's microbial community and possibly impact the colony's health. There is little known about the beneficial microbes in honey bees and bee bread, and what is known is largely from studies conducted several decades ago. In the third part of this series, we present descriptions of studies that are needed such as metagenomic and functional metagenomic analyses of bee bread to expand our understanding of the contributions of microbes to food processing and utilization in honey bee colonies. 

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

Here is a report done in Slavokia:

*2003 report from Slavokia:
No lactobacilli were found*

Received: 20 October 2003 Revised: 18 December 2003 

Abstract Microorganisms in the midgut and rectum of the honeybee were enumerated and characterized.

Counts of aerobic microorganisms were distinctly lower than counts of anaerobes (105–106 viable cells per g of intestinal contentvs. 108–109 per g). 

Total numbers of anaerobic microorganisms were almost identical with the count of anaerobic Gram-positive acid resistant rods. 

A higher number of coliform bacteria andBacillus spp. was detected in the rectum (105 per g). 

Anaerobic and aerobic microorganisms, coliforms, enterococci,Bacillus spp.,Pseudomonas spp. and yeasts were found in all bees;

* lactobacilli, staphylococci and moulds were not found. *
This work was supported by project no. 20-006102 of theAgency for Support of Science and Techniques (Slovakia).

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

*More data on-- The effects of probiotic supplementation on the content of intestinal microflora and chemical composition of worker honey bees (Apis mellifera)*

Journal of Apicultural Research Vol. 44 (1) pp. 10 - 14
DOI	10.3896/IBRA.1.44.1.02
Date	March 2005

Article Title The effects of probiotic supplementation on the content of intestinal microflora and chemical composition of worker honey bees (Apis mellifera)
Author(s) Adam Kaznowski, Bozena Szymas, Ewa Jazdzinska, Magdalena Kazimierczak, Halina Paetz and Joanna Mokracka
Abstract Two probiotics, Biogen-N and Trilac, were used as supplements to pollen substitute in feeding honey bees, Apis mellifera. The probiotics were given either throughout the entire 14-day experiment or only for 2 days, just after bee emergence. The midgut of worker bees was colonized by bacteria present in probiotics, including Lactobacillus spp., Pediococcus acidilactici, Bifidobacterium bifidum and Enterococcus faecium. Advantages of probiotic supplementation include better bee survival and higher dry mass and crude fat level in comparison with bees fed with pollen substitute only. We did not observe significant differences in total protein in the dry mass of bees. *There was no correlation between the duration of feeding with probiotics and the chemical composition of the bees. This suggests that to achieve an increase in dry mass and crude fat level, it is sufficient to supply probiotics only in the beginning of the feeding period, directly after bee emergence. *Keywords Apis mellifera, feeding, pollen substitute, probiotics 
Ernie


----------



## Keith Jarrett

BEES4U said:


> *Keywords Ernie*


*

Fat levels ????

How many folks got fat in there patty?*


----------



## BEES4U

*Lipids and honey bee nutrition:*
The following data supports the addition of lipids to pollen supplemens and or pollen substitutes!
Lipids
Information on the nutritional need for dietary lipids (fatty acids, sterols, and phospholipids) in honey bees is fragmentary and inconclusive. Generally, lipids are used for energy, synthesis of re serve fat and glycogen, and for the functioning of cellular membranes. The lipid composition of adult bees differs from that of pollen. However, a phospholipid found in pollen also is found in the body tissue of adult bees.* Another substance, 24-methylene cholesterol, also found in pollen, is the major sterol of the body tissue of adult queen and worker bees. *Possibly, certain lipids have a significant role in the lubrication of food when it is ingested and prepared for absorption. *All insects studied critically were found to require a dietary sterol; therefore, it is reasonable to assume the honey bee also requires this lipid.*

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

10-02-09

Today I re-worked one of my Pollen Supplement formulas and ran it through my calculation data sheet.
Here are some of the results:

*Crude Protein 23.57 %

Oil 6.29 %*

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## sqkcrk

BEES4U said:


> 10-02-09
> 
> Today I re-worked one of my Pollen Supplement formulas and ran it through my calculation data sheet.
> Here are some of the results:
> 
> *Crude Protein 23.57 %
> 
> Oil 6.29 %*
> 
> Regards,
> Ernie


Pesticide content? Where is your pollen coming from?

I had a conversation the other day w/ a beekeeping friend who, at one time, got some pollen from a supplier and then was told that it was on Recall. He got the pollen tested and found that besides the high levels of fluvalinate, it also contained DDT. This pollen was from China.

Pollen from his own bees had chemicals similar to flea collar chemicals, which he believes came from the beef cattle farm near by.

It makes me wonder what's in my pollen and honey.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

sqkcrk said:


> Pollen from his own bees had chemicals similar to flea collar chemicals It makes me wonder what's in my pollen and honey.



Well said Sqkcrk, That is the main reason why we have no bee products in our sub, we were greatly concerned about spreading unknow contaminets through out the hive or worse yet operation.

P.S. Ernie, the lab is the only true reading for protein ect...

A spread sheet will get you in the ball park.


----------



## sqkcrk

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well said Sqkcrk, That is the main reason why we have no bee products in our sub, we were greatly concerned about spreading unknow contaminets through out the hive or worse yet operation.
> 
> P.S. Ernie, the lab is the only true reading for protein ect...
> 
> A spread sheet will get you in the ball park.


Thanks for clearing that up for someone who hasn't kept up w/ what you are doing. Great work, Keith.


----------



## BEES4U

He got the pollen tested and found that besides the high levels of fluvalinate,

The high levels of Fluvalinate probably came from a 6 fluid ounce container that retails for $28.00 that's registered for the nursery business and not to be used for home made remedies to control Varroa mites. One package would treat over 200 hives.
I know of several United States bee operations that were soaking the"product" in strips of chip board and then putting it into their hives for the bees to chew up and dispose of out their front door.

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

Saturday, October 10, 2009 Update

I decided to add a third source of oil to my *Pollen Supplement *and *Pollen Substitute patties.*I tried it out in the last batch that was applied 10 days ago and the bees consumed it just like the two oils,corn and canola, that was used previously.

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

If you are going to keep bees, you need to expand your vocabulary!

So, here is a new one for you to learn about it's called

* Lipophorin*

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

Here's some detailed data on how bees use fats/lipids:

*FAT METABOLISM IN INSECTS
Lilián E Canavoso, Zeina E Jouni, K Joy Karnas, James E Pennington, and Michael A Wells
Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biophysics, and Center for Insect Science, University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona 85721*

Abstract The study of fat metabolism in insects has received considerable attention over the years. 
Although by no means complete, there is a growing body of information about dietary lipid requirements, and the absolute requirement for sterol is of particular note.
In this review we 
(a) summarize the state of understanding of the dietary requirements for the major lipids 
and (b) describe in detail the insect lipid transport system.
*Insects digest and absorb lipids similarly to vertebrates, but with some important differences. 
The hallmark of fat metabolism in insects centers on the lipid transport system. 
The major lipid transported is diacylglycerol, and it is carried by a high-density lipoprotein called lipophorin. Lipophorin is a reusable shuttle that picks up lipid from the gut and delivers it to tissues for storage or utilization without using the endocytic processes common to vertebrate cells.*The mechanisms by which this occurs are not completely understood and offer fruitful areas for future research.

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

October 14, 2009

For those of you that are interested in lipoprotein, Her's a web site that's very informative and it includes diagrams.
http://www.sfu.ca/bisc/bisc-429/lipoprotein.html
Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

*Vitamins for bees:*
Here's a list important vitamins to consider when you are supplementing an animal including bees.
*VITAMINS:*
1.0	Vitamin A
2.0	Vitamin D-3
3.0	Vitamin E
4.0	Vitamin B 12 (cobalamins).
5.0	*Vitamin B6
6.0	Vitamin B2	Riboflavin
7.0 Vitamin B1 Thiamine
8.0	Vitamin K precursor.Menadione
Despite the fact that it can serve as a precursor to various types of vitamin K, menadione is generally not used as a nutritional supplement.
9.0	Vitamin B5 d-Pantothenic Acid
10.0	Vitamin B9	Folic acid
11.0	Vitamin H or B7	Biotin
12.0	Vitamin B3 niacin
*Choline is an organic compound, classified as a water-soluble essential nutrient [1] [2][3][4] and usually grouped within the Vitamin B complex. This natural amine is found in the lipids that make up cell membranes and in the neurotransmitter acetylcholine. Adequate intakes (AI) for this micronutrient of between 425 to 550 milligrams daily, for adults, have been established by the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences.
I will provide information about the above items later when I have the time.
Regards,
Ernie


----------



## copper287

Tell me if you heard of torula yeast and is it better then brewers yeast.I found it on this web site. www.honeybee.com.au copper287


----------



## BEES4U

Tell me if you heard of torula yeast 

I used Torula yeast back in 1972 and I used Coors brewers yeast.
I have read a lot of current data coming out of Australia about this yeast.
The Australians also use pollard.
I read somewhere that it's not as good as a high grade brewers yeast,
So, I droped it from my Pollen Supplement and Pollen Substitute ingredients.
I could not find a local supplier for the Torula yeast.
What's interesting about Torula yeast is that currently Cuba is growing it by the mega tons on sugar cane end product and using it in their swine rations!
It was and still is a costly part of the supplement.
I would suggest that you take a close look at brewers yeast for two reasons.
1. It's readily available
2. It's a superior product. 
Regards,
Ernie


----------



## copper287

Ok.I was wanting to see if it was cheaper,but your right on finding it.Its hard to find in the U.S. Thanks copper287


----------



## BEES4U

Ok.I was wanting to see if it was cheaper,

Torula yeast is used as a flavor enhancer in foods like chips and we probably can not compete with that market demand.
Try to get some BrewTech brewers yeast locally. 
Your bees will thrive on it in pollen substitute or pollen supplement patties.
good luck,
Ernie


----------



## Countryboy

I believe Allen Dick encouraged people to use torula yeasr if they could, and he considered brewers yeast to be an inferior (but cheaper) substitute.
www.honeybeeworld.com


----------



## BEES4U

You may be right.

Net protein digestibility and growth promoting values of Bakers, Brewers and Torula Yeast

http://www.nfprotein.com/vijai/dx/torula-yeast
Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

Here's another source.

Protein Bee Feeds and their economic use 
By Peter Stace
The use of supplementary protein feeds for commercial bee keeping is not recommended unless there is a defined economic reason to have high performance hives. The margin of increase production is possibly 20-40% for honey production. Although, some strategic feeding when a high valued, high volume, but low pollen crop such as grey ironbark, or yellow box may give a higher return. 
A number of commercially available products are suitable as protein bee feeds. These products may be used by beekeepers to supplement the naturally collected pollen coming through the bee hive entrance. The feed products recommended are: defat and expeller press soy flour, brewers and torula yeast, irradiated pollen, pollard, white sugar, malt, irradiated honey, vegetable oil and vitamin additives. 
Each circumstance, due to floral sources and seasonal conditions will change the reason and the ingredients in a particular feeding situation. 
The particular feeds, their uses, and the effect on the hive is as follows. 
Torula or Brewers yeast are useful non floral protein for honey bees. These two yeasts are commercially available in either the dry form or in the case of Brewers yeast in a malt slurry. *The crude protein content is 48-56%. Yeasts are good brood feed and stimulate breeding to occur.* They are ideal in early spring or when the main task required of the bees is breeding, especially after a heavy honey flow or when package bees have been harvested. Yeasts have a problem in that they are expensive being $2-3 per kg. 
Due to this cost problem, yeast should only make up to 10% of the ration fed to bees. 

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

Well, it took me a little while. This chart may clear up some thoughts about yeasts and their uses!

Torula Yeast- The inactive primary yeast strain Candida utilis is grown on a wood sugar medium which is a by-product of paper production. Torula Yeast is a type of nutritional yeast, though not as high in nutrients as the others. Its blander taste lends itself for applications such as a flavouring in processed foods and pet foods. 

Yeast Extract Spreads- This savory food paste is made from Brewers Yeast and various spice and vegetable extracts. It is processed so that it results in a salty, smooth, yeasty flavoured paste. A common food condiment in Australia (Vegemite), New Zealand and Britan, it has found less popularity in North America. It shares a similar nutritional profile with Brewers Yeast.

Nutritional Analysis of Inactive Yeasts per 16g (roughly 2TB)
Red Star Veg Support Flake & Engevita	Brewer's	Torula 
*Protein	8.34mg	7.41mg 8mg	8mg*
B1	9.6mg	0.43mg	1.4mg	n/a
B2	9.6mg	6.35mg	0.7mg	0.54mg
B3	56mg	2.69mg	5.3mg	7.54mg
B5	1.04mg	82.5mg	0.4mg	0.61mg
B6	9.6mg	0.5mg	0.6mg	0.224mg
B12	8mcg	4.46mcg	2mcg	n/a
Folic Acid	240mcg	88mcg	240mcg	0.042mg
Calcium	11.2mg	13.84mg	59mg	0.011mg
Iron	0.77mg	1.84mg	1.5mg	n/a
Potassium	320mg	n/a	222mg	n/a
Chromium	<0.5mcg	n/a	60mcg	n/a
Zinc	3.2mg	n/a	1.2mg	2.01mg
Magnesium	20.8mg	n/a	33mg	0.067mg
Copper	0.128mg	n/a	0.5mg	0.16mg

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

And, the winner is!

Nutritional Analysis of Inactive Yeasts per 16g (roughly 2TB)

Brewer's	Torula 
Protein	8mg	8mg	
B1	1.4mg	n/a	
B2	0.7mg	0.54mg	
B3	5.3mg	7.54mg	
B5	0.4mg	0.61mg	
B6	0.6mg	0.224mg	
B12	2mcg	n/a	
Folic Acid	240mcg	0.042mg	
Calcium	59mg	0.011mg	
Iron	1.5mg	n/a	
Potassium	222mg	n/a	
Chromium	60mcg	n/a	
Zinc	1.2mg	2.01mg	
Magnesium	33mg	0.067mg

Ernieopcorn:


----------



## BEES4U

Here's some interesting data on the nutrition of chicks that can/could be transfered to honey bees:

SUMMARY
Diets containing *corn gluten me*al, cottonseed meal or pea
nut meal were fed to young chicks so that all the *20% crude
protein* of each diet was provided by one of these concentrates.
Additions of various amino acids were made, and the effects
on growth and efficiency of gain were noted.
*Corn gluten meal required the addition of arginine, lysine
and tryptophane in order to increase the rate of growth from
2% to slightly less than 6% per day. Cystine, glycine, methionine,
threonine and valine were already present in adequate
amounts.*Supplementation of cottonseed meal with both methionine
and lysine increased the growth rate from 4% to 1%. *The
methionine deficiency was found to be less marked than that
of lysine,* a result which was expected from amino acid
analyses.
Peanut meal is lacking primarily in methionine, but is also
slightly deficient in lysine.

It seems that the diet requirements of a chick is similar to the honey bee.

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

Monday, 19 October 09

An update of the oils that I include in my Pollen supplements and Pollen substitutes.

I decided to add a *fourth *oil to my Pollen Supplement and Pollen Substitute patties to even out their oil contents and provide the bees with* a better selection of fatty acids and sterols.*Please note that I am discussing oils and not fats because fats are solid at room temperatures and oils are liquid.
I added the fourth oil 14 days ago and the bees consumed the patties completly.
Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

Is anyone aware of this protein source?
hydrolysate /hy·drol·y·sate/ (hi-drol´ĭ-sāt) any compound produced by hydrolysis.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

protein hydrolysate a mixture of amino acids prepared by splitting a protein with acid, alkali, or enzyme; used as a fluid and nutrient replenisher.


Dorland's Medical Dictionary for Health Consumers. © 2007 by Saunders, an imprint of Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
protein hydrolysate
n.
A sterile solution of amino acids and peptides prepared from a protein by acid or enzymatic hydrolysis and used intravenously for the maintenance of positive nitrogen balance in severe illness, after surgery of the alimentary tract, in the diets of infants allergic to milk, or as a high-protein dietary supplement. 

The American Heritage® Medical Dictionary Copyright © 2007, 2004 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hydrolysate
any compound produced by hydrolysis.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

protein hydrolysate
a mixture of amino acids prepared by splitting a protein with acid, alkali or enzyme. Such preparations provide the nutritive equivalent of the original material in the form of its constituent amino acids and are used in special diets or for patients unable to take the ordinary food proteins.
Saunders Comprehensive Veterinary Dictionary, 3 ed. © 2007 Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved
_____________________________
Here's a product lable.
What's in Supplement Direct Whey Protein Hydrolysate?2 Lbs. 
Supplement Facts 
Serving Size1/3Cup(28.35g) 
Servings Per Container32 

Amount Per Serving % Daily Value 

Calories 105 
Calories From Fat 0 
Trans Fatty Acids 0mg 
Total Fat 0g 
Saturated Fat 0mg 
Monounsaturated Fat 0mg 
Polyunsaturated Fat 0mg 
Sodium 43mg 
Total Carbohydrate 1g 
Sugars 0g 
*Protein 26g * 
Vitamin A 0% 
Calcium 0% 
Vitamin C 2% 
Iron 0% 

* Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet 
† Daily Value not established 

Ingredient 
Pure Multiple Reaction, Sequential, Enzymatic Hydrolyses. 

Comments?
regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

*Nutritional Analysis of Brewers yeast per 16g (roughly 2TB)*

Brewer's 
Protein 8mg 
B1 1.4mg 
B2 0.7mg 
B3 5.3mg 
B5 0.4mg 
B6 0.6mg 
*B12 2mcg *
Folic Acid 240mcg 
Calcium 59mg 
Iron 1.5mg 
Potassium 222mg 
Chromium 60mcg 
Zinc 1.2mg 
Magnesium 33mg 

*After reading the above list, you can see why vitamins are added to the supplement.*

Regards, 
Ernie


----------



## Hambone

BEES4U said:


> *Nutritional Analysis of Brewers yeast per 16g (roughly 2TB)*


This is the lab analysis for the Diamond V brewers yeast. They offer a few different ones, but this is the most common stocked at the feed stores. At least around here. I have read that this is not the desired flake size, but it can be but though a grinder to get desired size.

The analysis is per pound.

http://www.diamondv.com/products/profiles/Product_Profile_1004_XP_3-04.pdf


----------



## BEES4U

STUCK KEYThis is the lab analysis for the Diamond V brewers yeast. 

Thanks for the information. I will add it to my notes.
Crude protein, not less than 12% means that you have to bump the % higher with something.
makes me happy to get my 40% brewers yeast from Los Angeles Honey Company!
Ernie


----------



## Hambone

BEES4U said:


> Crude protein, not less than 125 means that you have to bump the % higher with something.


Yeah I was looking at the Soy isolate to bump up the %, or eggs since I get those free.


----------



## BEES4U

Yeah I was looking at the Soy isolate to bump up the %, or eggs since I get those free. 

I have a stuck key and the % did not strike
Pure Soy Isolate is 90% crude protein and it the 3rd item listed in many "muscle building' diet foods.
Dried egg yolks are about 37% crude protein and they add some very essential cholesterols.
Myself, I would use them both to cover the protein needs of the bees.
Regards,
Ernie


----------



## Hambone

BEES4U said:


> Yeah I was looking at the Soy isolate to bump up the %, or eggs since I get those free.
> 
> I have a stuck key and the % did not strike
> Pure Soy Isolate is 90% crude protein and it the 3rd item listed in many "muscle building' diet foods.
> Dried egg yolks are about 37% crude protein and they add some very essential cholesterols.
> Myself, I would use them both to cover the protein needs of the bees.
> Regards,
> Ernie


Thanks for all the info. :thumbsup:


----------



## Keith Jarrett

BEES4U said:


> Dried egg yolks are about 37% crude protein and they add some very essential cholesterols.
> Ernie


FYI Big Ernie, Dried egg, 45% protein 40% fat.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Bacon & eggs, now were loggin Hambone.


----------



## BEES4U

Nutritional data For:
Eggs, Dried, Yolks

Nutrition and Calories in Egg Yolk (Dried)
Water content (grams per 100g) 2.95 
Calorie content of Food (kcals per 100g/3.5oz) 666 

*Protein content (grams per 100g) 34.25 *


*Fat content (lipids) (grams per 100g) 55.8* 

Ash content (grams per 100g) 3.4 
Carbohydrate content (grams per 100g) 3.6 
Dietary Fiber content (grams per 100g) 0 
Sugar content (grams per 100g) 3.6

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## Hambone

Keith Jarrett said:


> Bacon & eggs, now were loggin Hambone.


I could probably use the drippings instead of Canola oil to raise the fat %


----------



## Hambone

This might be dumb, but I am going to ask anyway. I searched and did not see anything on it. I was feeding my baby this morning and was mixing her cereal. Noticed the flakes and was thinking this might be used instead of brewers yeast. Price wise it's about $3 per pound. (Cheaper than the b.y. at the health stores) Don't know if they can digest it though? The fat and protien would need to be bumped too. The Nutrition Facts is % Daily Value and not grams or mg's per. I can probably get that though.

List of ingredients:

OAT FLOUR, TRI– AND DICALCIUM PHOSPHATE,SOY OIL-LECITHIN, MIXED TOCOPHEROLS (TO PRESERVE FRESHNESS), ELECTROLYTIC IRON, ZINC SULFATE, ALPHA TOCOPHERYL ACETATE (VITAMIN E), NIACINAMIDE (A B VITAMIN), PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE (VITAMIN B6), RIBOFLAVIN (VITAMIN B2), THIAMIN MONONITRATE (VITAMIN B1), FOLIC ACID (A B VITAMIN),VITAMIN B12 (CYANOCOBALAMIN)

Nutrition Facts

http://www.gerber.com/Products/Sing...PLineId=528da3ed-2381-458a-9b63-8f5a3c73bb4e#


----------



## Hambone

This is the lab analysis per 4 tablespoons of Gerber Single Grain Oatmeal. Which is basically Oat Flour with added nutrients.

Total lipid (fat) 1 g 
Carbohydrate, by difference 10 g 
Fiber, total dietary 1 g 
Sugars, total 2 g 
Calcium, Ca 150 mg 
Iron, Fe 8.1 mg 
Phosphorus, P 150 mg 
Potassium, K 50 mg 
Zinc, Zn 3 mg 
Thiamin 0.375 mg 
Riboflavin 0.5 mg 
Niacin 5 mg 
Vitamin B-6 0.5 mg 
Vitamin B-12 1.5 mcg 
Vitamin E, added 4.5 m 

From the ABJ: Volumes 14-15 Page 559

*Feeding Flour.*



> Question : Is it advisable to use rye flour in the spring ?
> 
> Geo. Bischoff. My bees are very fond of it; they got so that they looked for it every time I came into the yard. Some think it is injurious.
> 
> II. Brown. 1 have never fed rye ; I take sugar syrup and stir in wheat flour until it is quite thick, then let it cool till it is hard, like candy, in pans. I then turn these pans over the frames, under the quilts.
> 
> J. W. Barlow. I use oat and rye flour, oat flour and corn meal together ; -the bees used bushels of it.
> 
> W. F. Bell. I like the unbolted rye flour best; 1 fed 160 Ibs. of it last spring, about February.
> 
> E. C. Crane. Have fed rye and corn meal I think they rear brood faster with it.


----------



## BEES4U

*Here's some more data on Insect Fat Body: Energy, Metabolisim and Regulation*.

Abstract
Annual Review of Entomology
Vol. 55 (Volume publication date January 2010) 
(doi:10.1146/annurev-ento-112408-085356)


*Review in Advance first posted online on September 2, 2009.* (Minor changes may still occur before final publication online and in print.)
Insect Fat Body: Energy, Metabolism, and Regulation

*Estela L. Arrese*

Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, *Oklahoma State University, Stillwater, OK* 74074; email: [email protected]


*Jose L. Soulages*

Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Oklahoma State University, Stillwater, OK 74074; email: [email protected]


The fat body plays *major roles *in the life of insects. It is a dynamic tissue involved in *multiple metabolic functions*. One of these functions is to store and release energy in response to the energy demands of the insect. Insects store energy reserves in the form of glycogen and triglycerides in the adipocytes, the main fat body cell. Insect adipocytes can store a great amount of lipid reserves as cytoplasmic lipid droplets. *Lipid metabolism is essential for growth and reproduction and provides energy needed during extended nonfeeding periods. *This review focuses on energy storage and release and summarizes current understanding of the mechanisms underlying these processes in insects.

Expected final online publication date for the Annual Review of Entomology Volume 55 is December 03, 2009. Please see http://www.annualreviews.org/catalog/pubdates.aspx for revised estimates.

Acronyms
Terms
PDF 

The above publication is one that I will buy!
Ernie


----------



## irwin harlton

Ernie , do you have a current recipe for pollen sub?


----------



## Hambone

irwin harlton said:


> Ernie , do you have a current recipe for pollen sub?





Keith Jarrett said:


> Chef would be proud.


 
For Whale Tail...


Send it to me too Big Ern. :shhhh:


----------



## wfarler

iis the separated yeast slurry from beer and wine making usable in bee feed?


----------



## Hambone

wfarler said:


> iis the separated yeast slurry from beer and wine making usable in bee feed?


Yes, but it has to be deactived first. Alpha6 uses it. Do an advance search using his name to seach his post. He explains how he deactivates its.


----------



## BEES4U

Ernie , do you have a current recipe for pollen sub? 

I sure do!
I have several formulas.
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

Friday November 13, 2009 


*A secondary application of feeding grease patties or oils:.*

I now fully believe that there is a strong correlation between the application of grease patties and or 8% oil content Pollen Substitutes and wintering success.
The bees requirements for the oils or Crisco are for metabolism to prevent winter stress.
Comments are welcomed
Regards,
Ernie


----------



## Keith Jarrett

BEES4U said:


> The bees requirements for the oils or Crisco are for metabolism to prevent winter stress.
> Comments are welcomed
> Regards,
> Ernie


Keep up the good work Ernie, we couldn't do it without you.


----------



## Matt Beekman

BEES4U said:


> Friday November 13, 2009
> 
> 
> *A secondary application of feeding grease patties or oils:.*
> 
> I now fully believe that there is a strong correlation between the application of grease patties and or 8% oil content Pollen Substitutes and wintering success.
> 
> 
> 
> Why 8%? What is magical about 8%?
> 
> Thanks!
Click to expand...


----------



## irwin harlton

Default Re: Meeting Bee Nutritional Requirements
Ernie , do you have a current recipe for pollen sub?

I sure do!
I have several formulas.
Ernie 

and what would be your latest greatest formula


----------



## BEES4U

Why 8%? What is magical about 8%? 

Please read some of my prior postings within this thread.
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

and what would be your latest greatest formula 

They all have a patent pending!
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

Ernie's Research and Development:

The spreadsheet, sourcing materials, time, money, field trials using my hives in research and development are not available.
All of the above are 100% my domain.
Regards,
Ernie


----------



## Reed Honey

Ernie, how many hives do you run and is this how you make your living with bees?? Also is your pollen sub for sale and if so how much would it cost for a truck load (40000lbs) Thanks Kenny


----------



## BEES4U

Also is your pollen sub for sale and if so how much would it cost for a truck load (40000 lbs) Thanks Kenny 

At this time I am not offering it for sale.
If and when I market the mix I will post it in the For sale section of this forum.
I would offer the mix with your requirements, like % crude protein 17.05%
minimum.
The cost would vary according to the protein contents.

The trucking cost of 40,000 pounds would make the mix uneconomical for you.
Thank you for your inquiry,

Ernie


----------



## Keith Jarrett

BEES4U said:


> The trucking cost of 40,000 pounds would make the mix uneconomical for you.
> Thank you for your inquiry,
> 
> Ernie


Big Ernie, I ship to TX a long with, Mann Lake & Globle ect... Don't sell yourself short.

P.S. You never know, the bees maybe RIGHT HERE IN CALIF. I just sent two semi loads to Merced, owned by a beekeeper from TX.


----------



## BEES4U

P.S. You never know, the bees maybe RIGHT HERE IN CALIF
True.
Very true.
I have thought it over!
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

I need to get my camera out, take some photos, and post the results of my feeding program for the bees.
The feeding results are astonishing!
Ernie


----------



## Keith Jarrett

BEES4U said:


> .
> The feeding results are astonishing!
> Ernie


All right Big Ernie, breakem on out!


----------



## irwin harlton

you maybe don't want them to peak to early, maybe swarm on you......let's see them boomers


----------



## Skinner Apiaries

I'm inspired to go make some of my own stuff. I would love to see some pics.


----------



## BEES4U

:thumbsup:CHECK FOR POLLEN NOW:thumbsup: 
*The above statement is made in the July-August newsletter From the U.C. Apiaries, written by Dr. Eric Mussen. *It is particularly relevant given the situation in northern Florida over the past two seasons. I am printing it in almost its entirety. *In almost every instance the word California can be replaced with Florida. *"Most California beekeepers either experienced or heard about calamitous overwintering problems faced by a significant number of our beekeepers a half year ago.* Right now we are in that period of time *when nature, or the beekeeper, must provide for the needs of the colonies or we will have a repeat performance this coming winter. 
The above statement is *one of the most importan rules in *keeping your bees healthy and preparing them for wintering.
Comments are welcomed.
Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

This information should apply to our bees in the United States of America!
*ORIGINAL RESEARCH ARTICLE

Pollen substitutes increase honey bee haemolymph
protein levels as much as or more than does pollen.*David De Jong1*, Eduardo Junqueira da Silva2, Peter G. Kevan3, James L. Atkinson4.
1Genetics Department. Faculty of Medicine, University of São Paulo, 14 049-900 Ribeirão Preto, SP, Brazil.
2Entomology, FFCLRP, University of São Paulo, 14 049-900, Ribeirão Preto, SP, Brazil.
3Department of Environmental Biology, University of Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada.
4Department of Animal and Poultry Sciences, University of Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada.
Received 21 February 2008, accepted subject to revision 31 March 2008, accepted for publication 4 September 2008.
*Corresponding author: Email: [email protected]
Summary
Adequate substitutes for pollen are necessary for maintaining healthy bee colonies during periods of pollen dearth, but testing them
objectively is both time consuming and expensive. We compared two commercial diets with bee collected pollen and acacia pod flour (used by
beekeepers in some parts of Brazil) by measuring their effect on haemolymph protein contents of young bees exclusively fed on these diets,
which is a fast and inexpensive assay. The commercial diets included a new, non-soy-based, pollen substitute diet (named Feed-Bee®) and a
soy-based diet, named Bee-Pro®. The diets were each given in patty form to groups of 100 Africanized honey bees in hoarding cages,
maintained and fed from emergence until six days of age. *Sucrose, in the form of sugar syrup, was used as a protein free control. Feed-Bee®,
Bee-Pro®, pollen *and acacia pod flour diets increased protein titers in the haemolymph by factors of 2.65, 2.51, 1.76 and 1.69, respectively,
over protein titers in bees fed only sucrose solution. The bees fed Feed-Bee® and Bee-Pro® had their haemolymph significantly enriched in
protein compared to the controls and those fed acacia pod flour and to titers slightly higher than those fed pollen. *All four proteinaceous diets
were significantly superior to sucrose alone.*

Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

Sunday, January 10, 2010

*http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=53*
*Fat Bees Part 4
This may explain "Hives Crashing"*
A colony that has reduced brood rearing during dearth may have few remaining young or mid-aged bees, and will therefore not be able to immediately assimilate much protein (remember the loss of momentum mentioned above?). A hungry colony diverts its efforts toward foraging, rather than broodrearing. Mid-aged are specialized to digest the proteins and lipids (fats) in pollen; older forager bees shift their enzymes toward the processing of nectar (or syrup) (Jimenez 1996). *When you start feeding protein supplement, older bees are forced to revert to protein processing, and must shift enzyme production and regenerate their hypopharyngeal glands, which takes a bit of time (remember this point when I discuss Nosema ceranae later). Keep this in mind when feeding. *A California colony that shuts down broodrearing in late July will not be able to utilize pollen supplement well in late September, since it will have few nurse bees with the proper enzymes. In addition, bees parasitized by the varroa mite become nutritionally compromised, so August mite control is critical for good nutrition.

nutritionally compromised. Now that sure is a descriptive term

Ernie


----------



## Allen Dick

I have been glancing over this thread and have a few comments:

* The Diamond V yeast motioned will IMO not be a good yeast for bees no matter what you do. It has a very low protein level and consequently can be assumed to have -- in all likelihood -- a high level of non-nutrients or anti-nutrients. Best to buy the yeast from a beekeeper or bee supply, not an animal feed store. Farm animals and chickens have entirely different needs from insects.

* Suitable yeasts have typical protein levels well over 40%. Make sure the supplies are fresh. Do not use flours more than a few months old.

* The reason for seeking high protein levels in yeasts and flours is that protein is the major ingredient required and a high protein level means less of all the other things we do not need, and which can depending on amount, be harmful or just useless filer like fibre, ash, esters, non-digestible sugars, starches, etc.

* Protein level in the finished product is not as meaningful if we use high protein ingredients, since the dilutants are ones we add and know to bee nutrients like sucrose or glucose/fructose and water.

* Oils, including essential ones can be toxic when fed in more than low amounts. One important oil popularly used has been shown to be toxic when present in amounts over 2%. Oils also become rancid quickly and become toxic if the supplement is not used immediately.

* The idea that 20% protein levels in supplements are better than lower levels comes from pollen studies where lower protein pollens were found to be much less effective bee food than higher protein pollens. This stands to reason in pollens, since the lower the protein percentage, the more non-protein (and probably non-nutrient or anti-nutrient) components need be consumed to get the required absolute amount of protein. These non-protein components may, worst case, be toxic and best case, a filler.

* In supplements, the non-protein ingredients (beyond whatever rides along in the yeasts or flours) is sugar or water and we know these are nutrients which bees will be consuming anyhow, not junk in the diet.

* Therefore, in supplements, the percentage of protein in the final mix is more an indication of value for money than anything else. Example: A 20% mix at $ 2.00 per pound should compare to a 15% mix at $1.50 per pound in efficacy, assuming that each has the same profile of non-protein ingredients and the water and sugar levels account for the difference. Keep in mind though that sugar is not free, so maybe the 15% mix should be valued up at $1.75, say.

* In Florida, I spent time recently with several beekeepers and a bee nutrition expert of note. Interestingly, they are using a high sugar patty to encourage fast consumption due to hive beetle. The mix is 80% sugar and 20% yeast, plus whatever water is needed. They are quite happy with this.

* I also spoke to Hack last summer at EAS and he sent me his formula with permission to post it. For those not on BEE-L, here it is. This is not a recommendation. 

Hack's Protein Patty Recipe

1. 125 lbs. Sugar (Add water and keep wet. 
Should be a little thicker than pancake batter.)
2. Add either 3 cups citric acid or 4 quarts of lemon
juice, (this is to put the ph at 4 ½ to 5)
3. Add 1 cup Honey Bee Healthy (optional , but we prefer)
4. Add ½ bag Vitamins & Electrolytes (we use Russell’s)
(2 oz. worth) 
5. Add 10 lbs. pollen (optional)
(keep the mix wet)
6. Mix in 25 lbs. of Inedible Dries eggs
7. Add 3 ½ cups Canola Oil 
8. Mix in 24 lbs. (2 gallons) Honey
9. Finish by adding 50 lbs. Brewtech Brewers Yeast and water until it has the consistency you desire.


----------



## BEES4U

Thank you for your information.
I included the highest quality ingredients in all of my formulated supplements.
My bees look good and so do my customers.
i recently posted a photo today of an over wintered 5 frame nuc that was fed my nuc formulation.
It's listed in our Photo Gallery section/form

Ernie


----------



## Allen Dick

> Thank you for your information.

This is a very interesting topic. I've appreciated your contributions as well.

> I included the highest quality ingredients in all of my formulated supplements.

That is good. Some try to scrimp on ingredients or make do with what is handy. Not a good idea.

Quality and freshness of ingredients is very important, much more important in fact than trying to figure out additional things to add beyond the basics.

> My bees look good and so do my customers.

Glad to hear that.

Speaking of customers, someone was mentioning adding fumagillan to patties. That makes the patties a drug and subject to regulation. 

For that matter, anyone selling feeds in many states needs to register with the autorities and meet their requirements. That is particularly true of California.


----------



## BEES4U

allend said:


> > Thank you for your information.
> 
> For that matter, anyone selling feeds in many states needs to register with the autorities and meet their requirements. That is particularly true of California.


i provide my customers with more information about the % contents than the BTO's do and that includes the corporations.
Ernie


----------



## Allen Dick

What is a BTO?

I trust that you don't use secret ingredients, then, but publish your contents? Or do you just provide an analysis?

Having had some analyses done, I have to wonder if they are much more than a marketing tool. We get the numbers for nutrients we ask for, but what the numbers really mean is a good question, since what we do not get is probably much more meaningful. For example, the protein numbers don't tell us how they break down and bioavailaility, and carb numbers don't give detail unless we ask. Of course the more items and detail in an analysis, the more it costs.

Other than worries about potential honey contaminants, I suppose the proof is in the pudding, ie. how the bees do in the short run, and long run. Comparisons are helpful, buty very difficult to do.

As for adding drugs, I think if you are custom mixing, ie. making supplement for one specific customer to that customer's specs, as a contract, you are in the clear. However, it is something to think about and to be careful about because if your product is deemed to be medication or a pesticide, the rules change, as do the authorities which take an interest.

For one thing, adding medication means that the batch must be labeled and segregated and must be consumed within specified times before honey production. Personally, I feed patties right through the honey season. I wonder if I need to rethink that? (I use Global patties, though, with known, simple food ingredients and not a secret formula).

Using unnamed and non-food components, salts,or essential oil-type ingredients can have unintended consequences due to potential contamination of honey. Some time back, I heard talk of a situation where a beekeeper or beekeepers were thought by a packer to have been using a prohibited repellant due to traces in the honey of compounds from the breakdown of some supplement ingredients. (One of the larges, best-known proprietary feeds was involved. It has since changed). 

I don't know how it was resolved, and I don't think the honey was condemned, but we are now entering times where increased scrutiny of foods is routine and unthinkably tiny amounts of contaminants can be detected. Even if detection does not result in condemnation of honey, it reduces the potential market and price.

Some beekeepers have tended to be very cavalier about what they put into beehives, but the days of flying uder the radar may be over soon.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

allend said:


> I suppose the proof is in the pudding, ie. how the bees do in the short run, and long run. Comparisons are helpful, buty very difficult to do.


Yes, the pudding. Comparisons... are easy to do, ie, if your really trying to deliver the best sub.


----------



## Allen Dick

> Yes, the pudding. Comparisons... are easy to do, ie, if your really trying to deliver the best sub. 

Not sure what you are saying here. If you are saying comparisons are easy, I suppose you are right.

I'll agree that it is usually not too hard to prove what people want to believe, especially to an uncritical audience.

What I was trying to say was that honest, valid comparisons are very difficult unless there are huge and obvious and repeatable differences, and no outside influences, which usually there are not. 

I have observed scientific comparisons of feed formualas and seen how many confounding factors can skew the results. I have run a few studies myself and found every time that many unexpected things can intervene, potentially influencing the results.

Some of us have considered how best to do independant tests to compare the many products on the market and concluded that getting fresh, typical samples and applying them to comparable hives under a variety of conditions is no small task.

Most subs work now, even some which were pretty poor in the past. The questions now are 

* which ones give best value for the money and 
* which ones are safe to use in honey producing hives


----------



## BEES4U

allend said:


> > Yes, the pudding. Comparisons... are easy to do, ie, if your really trying to deliver the best sub.
> 
> 
> Most subs work now, even some which were pretty poor in the past. The questions now are
> 
> * which ones give best value for the money and
> * which ones are safe to use in honey producing hives


_________________________________________________________
This concept is very important. There's a major difference between Crude protein and digestible protein in any feed ration. For example, chicken feather meal is listed as ?? % crude protein. But, you will find it difficult to find out the digestible protein and it has been used as a filler in other animal feed rations for many years.
They all should be "safe" if I interpret the term safe meaning that there are00.00% added medications.
Ernie


----------



## Allen Dick

> This concept is very important. There's a major difference between Crude protein and digestible protein in any feed ration. For example, chicken feather meal is listed as ?? % crude protein. But, you will find it difficult to find out the digestible protein and it has been used as a filler in other animal feed rations for many years.

What do they say?... "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure"?

Melamine was another, and it was toxic, but it made the protein in feeds look higher in nitrogen tests.

Some cat foods appeared to have a perfect nutitional balance, but proved to cause urinary problems as cats aged. We are still warned to avoid some of the cheap brands if we like our cats. (I had one guy write me. He had looked on a cat food bag and liked the nutritional profile and was planning to grind it, add sugar and feed it to his bees. I can't wait to hear how it works out 

> They all should be "safe" if I interpret the term safe meaning that there are00.00% added medications.

That is important. We had a homemade magic formual peddled here in Canada some time back which quite a few commercial guys fell for, and which even got endorsed by a provincial apiarist. It was eventually found to contain Neomycin. Some of us knew all along that it _had_ be fishy, but not how.

About three decades ago, I tested a pollen substitute dreamed up by a retired veterinarian. He had done plenty of studying and figured he had hit pay dirt. So I put it on every other hive in a row. 

When I checked the next day, many of the bees drifted from those hives to the nearby hives which I had not fed.Turned out it was a better bee repellant than pollen sub. That was the end of that idea  

One thing I worry about is the breakdown of some ingredients like eggs if they are used and the ration gets stored for a while or not consumed quickly. Decomposition can give off substances which could trigger a regulatory close scrutiny and/or rejection of honey as in the case I mentioned earlier.


----------



## BEES4U

Nutrition Facts
Vitamin C 25%
This was taken off my breakfast ham. Kraft Foods. Oscar Mayer
19 March 2010
So, What's the 25% vitamin C doing added to a 2,000 caloriie diet listing?
Ernie


----------



## Allen Dick

> Vitamin C 25%... This was taken off my breakfast ham. Kraft Foods. Oscar Mayer
19 March 2010...So, What's the 25% vitamin C doing added to a 2,000 caloriie diet listing?

Probably percentage of the RDA for Vitamin C in a 2,000 calorie diet.

We don't have RDAs for bees yet, unfortunately.


----------



## BEES4U

Minumum Daily Requirements are going to be difficult to establish for bees. BTW: It's sodium ascorbate that's added to the ham to preserve it until March.
I can add pure vitamin C to my formulations because it has been proven and observed to enhance brood rearing in bees.
Ernie


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## Allen Dick

Acids are traditional additions to insect diets. Vitamin C is probably beneficial if not overdone. 

"Tang" was the secret ingredient in some California diets going back two decades or more.

Some use the acids to lower the pH, but it all depends on the other ingredients. I personally don't consider pH to be all that important, but I could be convinced...


----------



## Matt Beekman

BEES4U said:


> I can add pure vitamin C to my formulations because it has been proven and observed to enhance brood rearing in bees.
> Ernie


Can you expand upon that? Did you do a controled experiment? How much more brood was generated from the vitamin C? What amount of vitamin C was added to your mix? Any info. you can provide is appreciated.


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## BEES4U

[ 
Good morning Matt,
It's a little wet up and down the state.
I can provide you with answers to your questions.
However, I have the time spent researching and I am disinclined to give it up for the asking.
Thank you. But, not at this time
Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett

Well heck...

Jeff Pedis ( USDA) group did a study with Lyle Johnstons group of bees this fall on the brood counts in Calif, Nutra Bee again was at the top with the most cm of brood, nutra bee fed hives were double on avg of brood.

Getten back under the bus now.


----------



## BEES4U

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well heck...
> 
> Jeff Pedis ( USDA) group did a study with Lyle Johnstons group of bees this fall on the brood counts in Calif, Nutra Bee again was at the top with the most cm of brood, nutra bee fed hives were double on avg of brood.
> 
> Getten back under the bus now.


Nutra bee gets another Gold Star!

I don't know why you are under the bus? You should be above the radar and proud of it!
Ernie


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## BEES4U

Allen,
I will try to get back to you this Saturday
Ernie


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## BEES4U

Allen Dick,

Are you taking samples of bees and componants of the hive in your research?
Ernie


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## Allen Dick

>Are you taking samples of bees and componants of the hive in your research?

Not sure what you mean, Ernie. 

Are you talking about my work on personal projects, or my work as an inspector?


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## BEES4U

Allen Dick said:


> >Are you taking samples of bees and componants of the hive in your research?
> 
> Not sure what you mean, Ernie.
> 
> Are you talking about my work on personal projects, or my work as an inspector?


All of the above.

Ernie


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## Allen Dick

In the Provincial inspection programme, the beekeeper and inspector together take samples of bees and honey from six hives in four yards chosen by the beekeeper.

There are two bee samples taken from each hive:

300 from the brood for varroa and other lab tests later (tracheal?) and 
100 from outer or super frames for nosema

The 300 bee sample is shaken for one minute on the spot and the mites counted to compare to the accepted threshold (ideally less than three, but not more than nine) 

The samples then go immediately to Edmonton for further lab analysis and the beekeeper is notified ASAP if other problems such as nosema are found.

In my personal operation, I always did mite drops for varroa monitoring, and recently did an alcohol wash to verify my drops. I have never had a nosema problem and have not sampled.

I tend to be a let-alone beekeeper pretty much, but am planning this year to be a little more aggressive and see how many splits I can make and winter.

Your question was quite brief, and unspecific, but seeing as this is in the nutrition thread, I am wondering if that was what you were meaning. In that regard, no, I have not personally done bee dissection or weights or sent out for nitrogen analysis, although I have considered it.


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## honeyshack

is Nutra Bee a home made formula? I tried to google it and did not get much in results


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## BEES4U

honeyshack said:


> is Nutra Bee a home made formula? I tried to google it and did not get much in results


It also goes by the name of pudding.
It's a private lable.
Ernie


----------



## Countryboy

Nutra Bee is the supplement Keith Jarrett came up with. He doesn't disclose the recipe.

I think he primarily sells to out of state beekeepers who have brought hives to California for almonds so they can feed the hives once they are there. A while back he was talking about selling to other folks, but I don't recall his minimum order to get him to ship it.


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## BEES4U

Friday, April 23, 2010
The continued cold and rainy weather of April has me feeding Pollen Patties to the hives because their flight time is reduced and they are high in population.
I fed three pounds /hive between the double brood chamber.
Ernie


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## Countryboy

I started four 2 pound packages on April 6. I gave each package 2 pounds of 15% pollen Global Patties. I checked on them today. The patties have been eaten down to scraps, and each hive has 5-6 frames almost edge to edge of brood. They are starting to cap dandelion honey too on the edges of the brood frames. 

I gave each hive 3-4 more patties.


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## Tom G. Laury

CB 

U lookin good. Pour on the feed they can make sumpn for you this year.

Gotta love those fresh queens.


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## Countryboy

I'm playing copycat on these packages. I filled 6 frames with syrup with my fruit tree sprayer like Householder does. The outside frames still had a little syrup in them.

We're starting to get a pretty good dandelion/fruit tree flow right now too.

17 days after dumping 2 pound packages into hives and I have 5-6 frames of brood in all 4 hives. I think the limiting factor was there wasn't enough bees to cover any more frames of brood.

I'm hoping these bees make me something....like splits in a week or two....and then I'm hoping they all do 150# like Ron's.


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## BEES4U

CB,
The limiting factor you mentioned applies to a natural swarm and package bees.
Keep adding the supplement because when all those baby bees emerge they are going to gorge on natural pollen and their patties. 
Keep up the good work!
Ernie


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## Countryboy

Yesterday morning I took my video camera and inspected those 4 hives again.

These were 2 pound packages started April 6th using the Householder method. This is 18 days after the package install.

I had been to that yard doing some other work the evening before, and decided to do a quick inspection of the package hives since I was there. They had eaten most of the patties so I gave them more. I didn't have my camera with me then, so I came back yesterday morning when we had a spell of decent weather and did an inspection for the camera. 

In talking with Ron, he advised me to remove an unused frame on the outside, and put in a frame feeder, so I did this during the inspection.

I don't know how much these affect my results, but these are minor differences between how I did these hives and Ron's method:

I use narrow frames. These are 1 1/4 inch wide frames. (Ok, there are a couple old frames and Pierco frames mixed in that are still 1 1/4.)

The vast majority of the frames were started as foundationless frames last year. They are natural cell.

Ron heats his syrup and has a compressed air supply on his syrup spraying tank which allows him to spray thicker syrup. I use a fruit tree sprayer, and I can't get a good spray with really thick syrup. I had to use a little thinner syrup. Mixing sugar with hot tap water until I couldn't dissolve any more sugar seemed to be a good syrup thickness for spraying.

I fed my packages 15% pollen Global Patties when I installed the package, and I am continuing to feed them patties.

I squeeze all my frames together. Ron likes to have his frames spaced equally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzZXOjqh4fw

I apologize for the wind noise and not holding the frames in front of the camera perfectly. I'm still getting the hang of this camera, and I am working by myself.


----------



## Countryboy

Another difference is that Ron is running dark mature combs, and the combs I have are still fresh white ones.

For those who feed patties and run a single deep with an excluder...do you put the patties above or below the excluder? Patties can be messy, and if patties were laying on top of the excluder, if you wanted to get in the broodnest simply removing the excluder would pick up the patties. Or does placing patties on top of the excluder affect consumption?


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## BEES4U

Tuesday, may 25, 2010
It's getting time to consider all factors about feeding Pollen Substitutes and Pollen Supplements
Ernie


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## Countryboy

Ernie, 
I added more feed and patties to those hives the beginning of May, and added a second deep box.
Yesterday, I split those 4 hives 6 different ways, and reduced the hives back to a single deep box. Out of 4 hives, I removed 24 frames of brood to make 4 frame splits. I left 4+ frames of brood in the parent hives.
Only 1 of the 4 hives had any pollen patties left, and it just had scraps. In about 7 weeks, each hive started as a 2 pound package had consumed about 7 pounds of 15% pollen patties. I have used up all the 15% patties I have, but I put 3 more pounds of 4% on the parent hives and on each split I made.

I taped it, but haven't completed editing the video yet. I will post it in the video gallery once I do.


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## BEES4U

:thumbsup:That's a very nice up-date!
I put some 3 pounders on April 15 just to see what the 6 framers would do and they ate it all when there was a lot of natural pollen available.
The bees can have their patties 24/7 and that makes a big difference in colony development.
Feeding those patties saved you money to make your devides!
Thanks for the video.

Keep up the good work.
Ernie


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## BEES4U

17 August 2010

It's Pollen Substitute/Pollen Supplement, Ernie's Formula,time in southern Califorinia.
I started the feeding of supplement after I observed a much reduced pollen storage in brood combs and pollen foragers at the entrance.
I gave the nucs their 1.5 pound patties and the production hives 4 to 6 pound patties.
I will try to post some images later of the bees consuming their patties.

Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett

Ernie. doing the same up here in N. Calif, will be finished with the first round on friday.

good luck, Keith


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## G B

Ernie and Keith, we are likely warmer here in AZ than you guys this time of year. I have been putting about one pound patties on my production hives, as I am concerned about getting wax worms growing in the patties . Also we get hot enough here that the sub gets runny. I have been using a plastic baggie and justcutting an X in the top and peeling the edges back so the bees can get to it. Using the larger patties like you guys do how do you keep the sub from running down between the frames? thanks for the input guys... George B


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## BEES4U

GB,

I use Smart and Finals grease resistant paper that's 15" X 16". 
Today, I took a few photos of the bees consuming the patties that were fed yesterday using my Blackberry cell phone. 
Kieth showed the use of his patties in a video.
It should come up with a search.
Good Luck,
Ernie


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## BEES4U

17 August 2010
Here's an image of the bees enjoying four pounds of their chow. 
The patty was placed over the top bars of a hive using a feed rim. The hive consists of one full depth brood chamber and two medium depth supers.
The management plan is to make divides in September.













Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett

G B said:


> I have been using a plastic baggie and justcutting an X in the top and peeling the edges back so the bees can get to it. Using the larger patties like you guys do how do you keep the sub from running down between the frames?


GB, when the out side temps are close to the inside (hive temps)you don't have to use waxed paper if you don't want to But, when your feeding sub in 50,60,70,80 degree temps you have to make the sub plyable at those out side temps knowing that the hive temp is much higher that's when you need wax paper.

We make sub accordingly to out side temps, for example, if you oder sub, the first question I would ask is what's your out side temp you will bee feeding at ? This makes it easy to handle for the keeper, whether he in GB's back yard in AZ or BC Canada.


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## G B

cool thanks for the responses guys......:thumbsup:


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## BEES4U

Here is some very good information on the nutritional requirements of bees.

NUTRITIONAL REQUIREMENTS OF HONEY BEES

Honey bees, like all animals, require a balanced diet of sugar, protein, vitamins and minerals. Water is also a vital nutritional requirement. 
Nectar/Energy 
Nectar is bees' energy source and is extremely important for growth, breeding, flying and keeping warm. 
In a supplementary feeding program, sugar is a most effective bee feed, because it stimulates the bees into breeding, foraging for pollen, and metabolising stored honey and protein. Sugar feeding can kick start bees into action. It can be used to capitalise on out-of-season honey flows, to prepare bees for pollination, start bees breeding earlier in the spring and to prepare hives for queen breeding. However, feeding sugar only is a stimulus to the bees and not a balanced diet. 
Stored honey is a very good energy source, but bees are reluctant to use it unless they really need it. They use it only when there is no fresh nectar available, such as during a drought or in winter. It does not stimulate bees to breed, except in the spring when natural brood expansion occurs. 
Pollen/Protein 
Pollen is the bees' main source of protein, and is required for muscle growth in brood and young adult bees. Bees need pollen with at least 20% protein. Spotted gum pollen is 25% to 33% protein so is regarded as very good for hive build-up. Pine tree pollen is only 5% to 7% protein, so is a poor food source for bees. 
Bees obtain pollen from flowers or from pollen stored in the combs. They can also draw on body-protein when they are protein-stressed, such as occurs in a spring build-up or a heavy honey flow. They consume body-protein to create royal jelly to feed their brood. This is similar to a cow using body tissue to produce milk for a calf. 
Protein and Amino-acids
*Protein is not just protein. Protein is made up of separate parts called amino-acids. *Building up body muscle with protein is a bit like building a house. The protein can be likened to the "building materials" as a whole. The amino-acids are like the individual kinds of building materials, such as timber studs, bricks, window glass, nails and roofing iron. However, in the case of protein, most amino-acids can be reconstituted from other amino-acids. 
In digesting the protein, the animal can manufacture some of the required amino-acids from other amino-acids that may be surplus. 
This is like a builder using a surplus stud for making noggins or a door frame, or some flooring for a brace, or rafters for floor joists. There is a degree of flexibility in how building materials may be used. 
However, there are some specific building materials, such as nails or glass or roofing iron or tiles, that cannot be reconstituted from other items. 
Not only are these essential building materials needed, they are needed in specific quantities in order to construct the building according to the plans. 
It is the same with protein and amino-acids. Some amino-acids cannot be reconstituted from other amino-acids. These amino-acids are called essential amino-acids. 

Essential Amino-acids 
Some amino-acids are an essential part of the protein digested by the bees, while others are reconstituted from surplus non-essential amino-acids. Essential amino-acids are required in definite proportions of the protein digested as protein. 
*In 1953 Dr. A. De Groot studied the amino-acid and protein requirements of honey bees and found that they need ten (10) essential amino-acids, at levels ranging from 1% to 4.5% of the protein digested. These results are listed in Table 1. *Table 1: Essential amino-acids for honey bees

Amino-acid	Minimum required % of amino-acid in protein digested
Threonine	3.0
Valine	4.0
Methionine	1.5
Leucine	4.5
Iso-leucine	4.0
Phenylalanine	2.5
Lysine	3.0
Histidine	1.5
Arginine	3.0
Tryptophan	1.0

If one of these essential amino-acids is not present in the amount required by the bees, then the bees cannot fully digest as protein all the protein they have eaten. *For instance, if one of the amino-acids is required at 4% and is only available at 3%, then only three-quarters of the total protein consumed can be utilised by the bees, as body-building protein. *Analysis of pollen protein has indicated that most of these essential amino-acids are at satisfactory levels. However, Iso-leucine and on a few occasions Valine are below these desired levels. 
Iso-leucine 
De Groot (1953) found that the amino-acid iso-leucine is required by honey bees at 4% of the digested protein. Analysis of pollen samples for this book found that iso-leucine contained in the pollen protein was usually below this 4%, in a range of 2.7% to 4%. This observation was recorded in Victorian eucalypts by Lynn Muss (Muss 1996), and also by Ryner and Landridge (1985), and in Queensland pollens by Kleinschmidt (1984). 
Studies carried out at Wollongbar N.S.W. on iso-leucine (Stace and White 1994) found that a response to supplementary iso-leucine can be observed when bees are breeding rapidly but have only limited amounts of pollen. The supplementary iso-leucine allowed the bees to fully digest as protein, all the protein in the pollen consumed. 
This indicates that, when there is a protein deficiency with bees foraging on Australian plants, it is most likely that the essential amino-acid, iso-leucine is the major limiting factor. 
The practical application of this information is that bee feed supplements should have over 4% iso-leucine. This will allow the feedstuff to be a true supplement, in that it supplies both additional protein and additional iso-leucine. The additional iso-leucine allows for a better utilisation of the field-collected pollen. 
Bee body-protein 
Bees store protein in their body, and use it to make wings, muscles and other body organs. The higher the level of protein in their bodies, the stronger the bees are and the longer they can live. 
*Bees can have a very high body-protein of over 60% crude protein,* at which time they are strong, long-lived bees, with the ability to collect lots of honey. *Or at the other extreme they can have low body-protein of less than 30% (Kleinschmidt 1988). When bees have low body-protein they will live only a short time, suffer from diseases like European brood disease (EBD) and nosema, and be very poor honey producers. *High body-protein bees are *essential in autumn, *so the bees can combat nosema, overwinter in strong condition, and have plenty of body-protein to use for hive build-up in the spring. Bees with a low body-protein in the autumn will generally not overwinter well, will be susceptible to nosema and "spring dwindles" and possibly have restricted breeding in the spring. 
Bee body-protein is reduced by honey production, cold or hot weather, wax production, and an increase in breeding, especially during the spring build-up period. 
Bee body-protein will increase if the bees are getting plenty of pollen with more than 20% digestible crude protein, especially if they are not stressed by heavy honey production and extremes in weather. 
Bee body-protein is a good measure of the hives' ability to survive winter, collect good honey crops, and overcome many of the bee diseases, like European brood disease or chalk brood. The higher the body-protein level, the better the bees will be able to collect economic yields of honey, pollinate crops, and produce queen bees. 
Protein and stress 
Bees require protein at different rates, according to the level of stress they are under. 
By understanding the concept of bee stress, beekeepers are able to make better management decisions about bee nutrition. 
Low stress 
Low stress hives show little activity. The bees may be breeding at a constant rate, there is little or no honey to gather, the air temperature is warm (above 20oC) and their needs are small. Under such conditions, bee hives will increase their body-protein, and maintain or slowly increase their populations if they can collect pollen at 12% to 15% crude protein. Under such conditions hives will develop to a reasonable strength in six to eight weeks. This can be observed when bees are collecting ground flora such as flatweed (false dandelion). During nutrition trials at Wollongbar Agricultural Institute in 1993, hives foraging only on flatweed increased their body-protein from 40% to 60% in six weeks. The hives did not store honey or increase in size. However, the low stress allowed the hives to develop high body-protein (Stace personal observation). 
High stress situations 
Honey bees in a high stress situation require surplus pollen with a digestible crude protein level greater than 20%. The higher the stress the greater their need for protein. 
High stress in beehives occurs when: 
. the bees are on a honey flow. The heavier the honey flow the greater the stress. 
. the bees are increasing their breeding rate or brood area, as occurs in spring or during a high nectar stimulated breeding program. (Stace 1994) 
. it is too cool or too hot (below 20°C or over 35°C) and the bees are working hard for their pollen and nectar (eg. a white box winter honey flow, or lucerne in summer).

Regards,
Ernie


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## loggermike

Good info ,Ernie. And timely too.

The countdown to almond pollination has begun !


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## Keith Jarrett

BEES4U said:


> Bees need pollen with at least 20% protein.
> Ernie


Really! seems as though nobody want's to mention lipids, Vitamins, Minerals, sterols or maybe even Cholesterol & maybe the percent of those needed. Maybe we could look at this as the glass being half empty (MT).

Intresting post Ernie, Thank you.


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## BEES4U

And, here some data on lipids.
Sterol utilization in honey bees fed a synthetic diet: Effects on brood rearing 




References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.


E.W. Herbert Jr.a, J.A. Svoboda*, a, M.J. Thompson*, a and H. Shimanukia

aBioenvironmental Bee Laboratory, Agricultural Research, SEA, USDA, Beltsville, MD 20705, U.S.A.

Received 31 July 1979; revised 19 October 1979. Available online 14 October 2003. 


http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...b09f2869b12110e772b8df0db360b4b6&searchtype=a

Sterol utilization in honey bees fed a synthetic diet: Effects on brood rearing 

E.W. Herbert Jr.a, J.A. Svoboda*, a, M.J. Thompson*, a and H. Shimanukia
aBioenvironmental Bee Laboratory, Agricultural Research, SEA, USDA, Beltsville, MD 20705, U.S.A.
Received 31 July 1979; 
revised 19 October 1979. 
Available online 14 October 2003. 

Abstract
The dietary sterols, cholesterol, campesterol, sitosterol, stigmasterol and 24-methylenecholesterol, were tested for their ability to support brood rearing in the honey bee, Apis mellifera L., by adding them singly to a chemically-defined worker bee diet. Diet supplemented with 24-methylenecholesterol supported the greatest survival of worker bees, but diet supplemented with either 24-methylenecholesterol or cholesterol supported the production of nearly equivalent amounts of sealed brood and more than any of the other three sterols tested. Diets containing stigmasterol, sitosterol, campesterol, or no supplement produced less sealed brood, in decreasing order.
Honey bee; Apis mellifera L.; synthetic diet; dietary sterols; 24-methylenecholesterol; sitosterol; stigmasterol; campesterol; cholesterol; brood production; workers; perpupae

* Insect Physiology Laboratory, Agricultural Research, SEA, USDA, Beltsville, MD 20705, U.S.A. 
________________________________________
Journal of Insect Physiology
Volume 26, Issue 5, 1980, Pages 287-289 
_______________________________

Here's one of my favorites:24-methylenecholesterol
Ernie


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## BEES4U

Here's some current data on lipids and sterols.

http://www.extension.org/pages/Honey_Bee_Nutrition
Honey Bee Nutrition
Zachary Huang, Michigan State University 
•	Jointly published in the American Bee Journal and in Bee Culture, August 2010. 
3. Other Nutrition 
*3.1. Sterols and Lipids *A sterol, 24-methylene cholesterol, is common in pollen and is the major sterol source for honey bees. *Nearly all insects need to obtain sterol from their diet because of their inability to synthesize them directly. *Sterol is the precursor for important hormones such as molting hormone, which regulates growth because it is required at the time of each molt. It is not clear what other lipids are required by honey bees, but most likely normal consumption of pollen provides for all the lipid requirements. Pollen with low fat content is less likely to be consumed by honey bees, but can be made more attractive to bees with the addition of lipids. *The total lipid concentration within a pollen supplement is recommended to be 5%–8%. *

Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett

BEES4U said:


> Here's some current data on lipids and sterols.
> The total lipid concentration within a pollen supplement is recommended to be 5%–8%.
> Ernie


Ever notice why the pollen sub suppliers NEVER talk about 5-8%? They run these full page ads but NEVER give you the percent of lipids?
Keith

NUTRA-BEE, BTW, is 7.5-9% Fats (lipids,sterols & cholesterol)
Just thought you should know.


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## greengecko

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ever notice why the pollen sub suppliers NEVER talk about 5-8%? They run these full page ads but NEVER give you the percent of lipids?


…or testing for residual pesticides! :s


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## loggermike

From the Megabee website:

" Question:
Dr. Wardell,
First off thank you for talking at the SC beekeepers meeting you gave me \ us a lot of great info to help in feeding our bees. In one of your classes I believe that you said you could mix corn oil while making MegaBee patties and you had data that showed the bees took the patties better. If so, how much corn oil do you put into the mix. I just ordered a couple 40# bags of your MegaBee from Dadant tonight and will be making splits the first of August and would like to feed the bees this fall to build them up for the winter. I have used other patties in the past and this will be the first time I have mixed my own or have used MegaBee.
Click here to view answer

2. Answer:
Thanks for your question - sorry it took so long for me to get back to you - I've been on the road a bit. About the corn oil. We were putting it in at approximately 4% by volume. I would say anywhere between 2 and 4% would be great for your bees. This time of year a little extra lipid is very beneficial for your bees. Just don't go too high.
I hope that helps
All the best "


I do not know if any is added to commercially available ready made patties. No one seems to want to divulge exactly what the ingredients are. 

Many of us who mix our own use various oils and egg yolk to get this into the bees.


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## BEES4U

Here is the nutitional analysis for MegaBee:

http://www.megabeediet.com/
Nutritional Analysis: 
For MegaBee
•	Carbohydrates 47% 
•	Protein 40% 
•	Moisture 7% 
•	Fat 4% 
•	Ash 2% 


Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett

Ernie,

Do you know if that is in dry form or in patty form? It seems at 7% moisture it is in dry form. We really need to compare apples to apples.When I give out Nutra Bee info, it is ALWAYS in wet form, just as the bees would eat.
Thanks, Keith


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## JSL

Keith,

Why on a "Wet" basis? Water is simply an "additive" with no nutritional value. When diets and food ingredients are analyzed it is on a dry matter basis to more easily compare apples to apples. You may report the moisture content of your final product, but again when feeding solids it is the nutritional value of the material that is of interest.

Joe


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## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> Keith,
> 
> Why on a "Wet" basis? Joe


Joe, many keepers get confused, they go on a web site like Ernie did and order patties and think there patties are the same as the web site product as listed "CA".

Almost all commercail keepers feed wet, But, very few of them can tell you "CA" of the product there feeding. If one goes on Randy Oliver site under nutrition there is a chart of some of the commercail products all in wet form, some beekeepers are blown away when they get down to the true facts of what there feeding, pound for pound. Who would have thought Megabee is 1.1% fat while Nutra-Bee is 7.5% in the ready to feed state.


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## Countryboy

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0011096#pone.0011096

It appears that bees from different climates digest and process pollen differently.

If you are running bees that came from a different geographic region (queen source), could it be that the bees can't digest your local pollen as easily and it is easier for the bees to digest patties? If the bees can't digest the local pollen, patties may be an easy to digest way to fill the nutritional gaps. (It won't fill gaps in warm climate bees not generating body heat as well in cold climates though.)


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## JSL

Keith,

Based on Ernie's post, Mega Bee has 4% fat, which is in the upper range for most animal requirements. From a nutritional standpoint, it does not matter the how much water is in the patty as animals quickly remove water from their ingested food. This is why diets are analyzed on a dry matter basis. If a lab were to analyze a prepared Mega Bee patty, they would first dry the patty to remove the majority of the moisture and then proceed with testing. 

The amount of moisture in a patty may be more of a concern when shipping patties. Water is heavy and expensive to ship.


Joe


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## loggermike

But if Megabee comes with 4% and Dr. Wardell is recommending another 4% oil be added, doesn't that come up to (counts fingers) uh 8% ?


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## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> Keith,
> 
> Based on Ernie's post, Mega Bee has 4% fat, which is in the upper range for most animal requirements. From a nutritional standpoint, it does not matter the how much water is in the patty as animals quickly remove water from their ingested food.
> Joe


On Randy site, all were lab tested in patty form, the reader can make up there own mind as to what has value/cost and what is best for them. According to Zachary artical (aug abj) 5-8% range of Sterols & lipids, seems at 4% would be on the low range for mega bee.


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## Keith Jarrett

loggermike said:


> But if Megabee comes with 4% and Dr. Wardell is recommending another 4% oil be added, doesn't that come up to (counts fingers) uh 8% ?


But is that dry or wet form, I know some want want to measure in dry form, but we know pollen comes into the hive around 26% so should we dry the pollen out before we test it or should we test it just as the bees bring it in?

Mike,when you add something to your patty like oil you are also deluting your % of protein, this is what im trying to say. As the pie gets bigger as one product is added it's deluting % wise to the other.


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## Keith Jarrett

Yep, I think I'm going to come out with a new line of sub....

The dry bag will say 70% protein & 15% fat, BUT, by the time I add two tons of sugar and water to the mix we really will be down to less than a percent on each. 

Man... why didn't I think of this before.


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## JSL

Calculations still have to be done on a dry matter basis. Water is not factored into the equation when analyzing nutritive value of diets. 

Unfortunately there are many assumptions made when it comes to formulating honey bee diets that just do not agree with the literature for other species. As beekeepers we would like to believe there is something special about bees, but in fact they are classified as animals and share many of the same nutritional requirements. 

For example, 4% is on the high end of dietary requirements for many species of animals. While adding more, as suggested by Dr. Wardell may make the beekeeper feel better, it does not appear to provide any nutritional benefit to the bees. When in fact many natural pollen samples will show any average of 3-4% fat content, some less, some more, but on average it doesn't take much fat content to satisfy dietary requirements.


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## 67630

Not trying to stir things up even more but wasnt there a study done just last year that showed 8% fat was best for brood production?


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## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> Calculations still have to be done on a dry matter basis. .


If that all being equal, why is mega bee lab test show 1.1%? I don't have the answer for that, But, I will be calling the lab that does my testing to find out. The bottom line is, we all have to be at the same at the starting line when evaluating.

Zachary Huang says 5-8% sterols & lipids is that 100% correct? I don't know other than to take his word for it. There's alot we just don't know yet.


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## loggermike

I've been mixing mine at 6% fat wet weight(estimated).Since that is how it is fed ,that is how I figure it. And that is what I want to see in any comparison of products. Finished product as fed.


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## Keith Jarrett

Welcome aboard, Mike.


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## bfriendly

Keith there are many who don't like (the idea of) paying for sugar / syrup content. I think your dry product would sell very well.  Especially when freight is involved.


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## irwin harlton

> There's alot we just don't know yet.


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## Keith Jarrett

bfriendly said:


> Keith there are many who don't like (the idea of) paying for sugar / syrup content. .


BFriendly, that' my whole point, I've been trying to make for years. That's why the "CA BAG" means nothing.

The way to find out what really has value is to, take finish ready to feed product, add the lipid, fat ,sterols percent & the protein percent & divide that by the cost.

So, if we used NUTRA-BEE as and example, we have fat 7.5% & protein 17.5%. So then we add 7.5% plus the 17.5% we end up with 25%, so then we divide the 25% into the cost of the per pound price($1.00). Now we have a ratio of 1-4 .

Go on Randy Oliver site under nutrition and look at some of the others. 

Bee Pro combined 15+%, Mega Bee combined 18+%, Nutra-Bee combined 25% 

Let's see Nutra-Bee at 25% & sells for 1.00 pound, Hello... is anybody home?????


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## BEES4U

The math for cost/pound of protein.


Bee Pro 15.0 %
Cost/pound = $1.00
1.00/0.15 = $ 6.66/pound of protein
_________________________________
Mega Bee 18.0 %
Cost /pound = $1.00
1.00/0.18 = $ 5.57/pound of protein
_________________________________
Nutra-Bee 25.0%
Cost/pound = $1.00
1.00/0.25 = $4.00/pound
_________________________________

I do not have an actual price/pound for the other two products, so I gave them a value of #1.00/pound.
____________________________
Now, 
the reality of the cost comparisons can be somewhat clear!

Perhaps someone can provide recent costs for the other products.
Thanks,

Ernie


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## BEES4U

Mega Bee
40# sack sells for $57.00
$57.00/40 pounds = $1.42/pound
41.42/0.18 = $7.92/pound of protein

Ernie


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## Allen Martens

Ernie

You are calculating the price per combined pound not price per protein pound.

The price you stated is for dry Mega Bee (I think) and the percentages are for patties. The weight and price need to be adjusted to take this into account. Not sure how much sugar and water or syrup would need to be added--always do it by gosh and by golly.


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## BEES4U

Allen, 
thanks for the input.
Two of the products were by dry weight.
Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett

Ernie, your turning my figures into a disaster.


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## BEES4U

Thursday, January 20, 2011

Here’s another approach to comparing protein of three products.
1. 15%, 0.15 X 16oz/lb = 2.4 oz of protein per pound of combined product.
To see how many pounds of the above product would have to be fed to provide 1, one, pound of protein is calculated by 16/2.4 = 6.67 pounds. That’s right, you would have to feed 6.67 pounds. 

2. At 18.0%:
0.18 X 16 = 2.88 oz of P/pound
16/2.88 = 5.56 pounds need to provide 1,one, pound of Protein.

3. At 25.0%
0.25 X 16 = 4.0 oz of P/lb
16/4 = 4 pounds needed to provide 1,one, pound of protein!

Comments?
Ernie


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## Specialkayme

Protein is very important, but looking at protein content alone doesn't get you anywhere. The soy flour I get at the grocery store is 51% protein. By those numbers I'd be better off dumping the stuff straight up into the hive.

If protein numbers are down, it's either because you are 1) adding other important ingredients such as vitamins, minerals, fats, oils, digestive enzymes, ect. or 2) you are adding filler.

I'm willing to bet that Megabee, Bee-Pro, and Nutra-Bee are all adding items described in #1, along with sugars. All of which decreases their protein %. Decreasing the % more than the competitors might not be a bad thing. If the 15% protein patty mix has much more other essential elements that are necessary to the bees, and they are the limiting factor, they will actually be better for the bees than the higher protein % mixture that is missing out on those other essential elements. The question becomes how much are you paying for #2, and how much are you paying for water.

I don't have the ability to calculate how much filler Megabee has. I can do my best to duplicate it's analysis (by adding the same amount of protein, vitamins, minerals, ect), then adding whatever I think they are missing (Probiotics, Inositol (sp?)). The rest is really trial and error of what the bees like and what makes them raise brood faster/live longer. No man can do ALL the trial and error. The only way we can succeed is by sharing the information on what works and what doesn't. At least in my opinion. Or you can figure it all out by yourself and charge the rest of us for it.  (that's not a crack at you Keith, your product is MUCH cheaper than the commercially available products. I'm still trying to figure out how you make it so soft, stay soft, and not be so sticky).


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## BEES4U

The past few postings are dealing with protein. And lipids/fats.
I have addressed many of the other feed stuffs for nutrition.
Keith and I have provided data that will answer your questions.
If you want to "dump" your soy flour onto your bees, go ahead.:lpf:
But, it does not have all of the known essential amino acids for bee nutrition.
Ernie


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## BEES4U

Nutra-Bee video
:thumbsup:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETLi3Jquor4&NR=1

(No starving bees!)
Ernie


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## Specialkayme

BEES4U said:


> If you want to "dump" your soy flour onto your bees, go ahead.:lpf:
> But, it does not have all of the known essential amino acids for bee nutrition.
> Ernie


That was kinda my point. I'm sorry if it wasn't that clear.



BEES4U said:


> I have addressed many of the other feed stuffs for nutrition.
> Keith and I have provided data that will answer your questions.


They weren't questions, more like comments. You can't compare protein alone, or protein to dollars alone. I know full well that you are aware of that, I was just making sure others were clear. 

Although, the questions I did have (based on consistency, drying out, non-stick) were not answered in this thread (at least from what I remember, it's over 20 pages now). I've been adding type 55 corn syrup to the mixture (recommended in this thread), which helps with the drying out part, but makes it a very sticky mixture. If I then add more flour, it's not so sticky but way too thick. Still toying with it. Just commenting that I'm having a hard time getting it to Keith's consistency.

No criticism to your work was intended Ernie. I'm a follower.


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## BEES4U

Saturday, October 01, 2011.
Updated Pollen Substitute R & D. 
The lab tests are in and here are the results.
15.7% Protein
49% Sugar
6.31% Oil
 And, the bees are consuming their patties!


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## BEES4U

11/25/2012
A reminder about the addition of oils in a pollen substitute.

http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/CAPArticle10.html
3. Other Nutrition

3.1. Sterols and Lipids

*A sterol, 24-methylene cholesterol, is common in pollen and is the major sterol source for honey bees.* *Nearly all insects need to obtain sterol from their diet because of their inability to synthesize them directly. * Sterol is the precursor for important hormones such as molting hormone, which regulates growth because it is required at the time of each molt. It is not clear what other lipids are required by honey bees, but most likely normal consumption of pollen provides for all the lipid requirements. Pollen with low fat content is less likely to be consumed by honey bees, but can be made more attractive to bees with the addition of lipids. *The total lipid concentration within a pollen supplement is recommended to be 5%–8%.*


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## BEES4U

06/24/2015.
Re-queening, making divides, feeding pollen supplements and _Varroa_ control.

Regards,
Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett

Welcome back Ernie.... where have you been?


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## BEES4U

Keith Jarrett said:


> Welcome back Ernie.... where have you been?


Trying to keep my bees alive low rainfall years has taken its toll on hive numbers and health.
The El Nino kicked in recently
I have been hard boiling eggs, separating yolks from whites as my source of yolks to be added to the pollen supplement. (The yolks are about 5% of the wet mix.) The bees are consuming the mix readily to date which makes me happy!
Regards,
Ernie


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## BEES4U

1/26/2016
FYI: Pollen Supplements. 
I have been adding the following mix to my patties for the past 10 years.
Additional Ascorbic Acid is added to preserve boiled egg yolks.

Guaranteed Analysis per pound.
1.	Vitamin A 16,500,000 IU
2.	Vitamin D3 6,400,000 IU
3.	Vitamin E 11,000 IU
4.	Niacin 66,000 mg
5.	D-Pantothenic Acid 28,000 mg
6.	Ascorbic Acid  20,000 mg
7.	Riboflavin 6,600 mg
8.	MSBC 6,000 mg
9.	Thiamine 4,050 mg
10.	Pyridoxine 2,000 mg
11.	Folic Acid 840 mg
12.	Biotin 150 mg
13.	Vitamin B12 20 mg
Regards,
Ernie


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## BEES4U

Specialkayme 

01/28/2016

What % vegetable oil is in your mix?
Try for about 7%.
Regards,
Ernie


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## BEES4U

2/9/2016.
Re: The impact of different feeds on the length of bees.

http://www.resistantbees.com/fotos/estudio/feeding.pdf (Contains many micro photos of the mid-gut).

CONCLUSION
Based on our research, it can be concluded that feeding with different food sources has different influence on the digestive tract of bees, especially in the midgut epithelial layer. Natural source of food for bees - honey had no harmful effects on the midgut epithelial layer, and the intestinal contents were completely attached to this layer, which leads to the quality of digestion and maximum nutrient resorption. Similar results were got when feeding bees with sugar syrup and enzyme inverted syrup without the addition of yeast and malt. This means that each addition of yeast and malt lead to damage to the midgut epithelial layer, and the differences arise, depending on food source. The most serious damage on the epithelial layer was found in midgut of bees fed with acidic invert syrup (in all examined combinations).
Regarding the impact of different feed on the length of life of bees, it can be concluded that feeding with honey, enzyme invert sugar syrup had a positive effect on the life span of bees, while addition of brewer's yeast and wort shortens the life of bees, so recommendation is to use supplemental feeding without them, and that the use of these supplements should be more practiced during other seasons, especially if there is no natural pollen.
Regards,
Ernie


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## Ian

Ernie, what do you use for your protein ?


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## BEES4U

February 10, 2016.
Ian,
My history of proteins.
Brewer’s yeast, non-fat dried milk, and soy flour, 1975. ABC & XYZ of Bee Keeping.
Brewer’s yeast, non-fat dried milk, dried egg yolks, and soy flour, 1980’s.
Brewer’s yeast, soy isolate and dried egg yolks, 2006.
MegaBee 2010.
Brewer’s yeast and or MegaBee, 2013-2014.
AP-23, late summer of 2015
AP-23 + boiled egg yolks, 2016.
Amino-B-Booster + Honey-B-Healthy, 2016,
Currently I am working on liquid amino acids, all 10 EAA +, formula. So far it's tested out and the bees readily consume the material!
Regards,
Ernie


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