# Top Bar Hive with laying worker?



## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

According to M. Bush's "Panacea" method, you're right, and just adding a bar of open brood should do your bees fine; the bar you remove (after shaking all the bees off) can be placed back in the donor hive that the brood was stolen from.

If the hive just recently swarmed (within, say, the last 3 weeks), then there's a very high likelihood that there's absolutely nothing wrong with them right now. Hives generally have a good amount of drone brood before a swarm (gotta get those new virgins mated well), and there's always a "brood break" between when the old queen flies off with the swarm, and when the newly emerged virgin gets mated & starts laying eggs.


Hope this helps;
Rob


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## quevernick (Feb 22, 2011)

If the hive just swarmed you should see some queen cells in the hive somewhere. If you dont see any queen cells I'd give them a bar of fresh larvae/eggs from your other hive to have them start making a new queen with. Once the queen comes out of the queen cell its going to be a little while before she starts laying again. I actually just had this scenario play out with both of my TBH's. I just left them alone, One is queenright again and the queen is laying. The other one didn't seem to make a queen or she got eaten on the mating flight  Luckily I've got some extra queens from a try at queen rearing that'll I'll use to get the hive queenright again. Even without the queens giving them a frame of eggs/brood would work although it would take longer.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

You don't say if the drone brood is in drone cells, or worker cells. One is normal, the other is a problem. But we cannot help you till you say which it is.

Not being able to find a queen can be normal. Is there any young larvae?

When did it swarm? As per Robherc it won't have a new laying queen within around 3 weeks of swarming, then it will.


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> You don't say if the drone brood is in drone cells, or worker cells. One is normal, the other is a problem. But we cannot help you till you say which it is.
> 
> Not being able to find a queen can be normal. Is there any young larvae?
> 
> When did it swarm? As per Robherc it won't have a new laying queen within around 3 weeks of swarming, then it will.


To tell you the truth I'm not sure if it is drone brood in drone cells. How can I tell? It swarmed on Weds. At least I'm reasonably sure it was this hive-I have two others. Can you clarify your last statement- I'm thick. TY all.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If you look at the comb, you'll find some patches of cells noticeable bigger than others. They are drone cells, may pay to google up a pic of them.

If it swarmed on wednesday, then it won't have a laying queen at the moment because she would have left with the swarm. It will have either queen cells or newly hatched queens they prepared before the swarm left, it will take around another 2 / 3 weeks till one of them mates and starts laying eggs.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's not unusual to have 25% drones just before they swarm. What is "beaucoup drones"? If it's all drone comb then you have laying workers or a drone laying queen. If you have worker and drone brood then you had a laying queen. From the time they swarm until you have a laying queen is most likely three weeks and by that time all the capped brood will have emerged from the worker comb.

When in doubt, a frame (or bar) of eggs and open brood from another hive every week for three weeks is the perfect prescription...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

Thanks all. I haven't been back in the hive d/t cold weather. No snow here , but our local ski resort got 23 inches and opened today! Will keep you posted on the hive. I'm pretty sure I saw a queen cell last time I looked. And an open one, which would explain the swarm?


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

I just checked on the hive with the intent to check for larvae, didn't see any, but saw a closed queen cell and then saw it swarmed again!! This swarm is in the grass, I don't have another hive, so I have to let it go. Why does this hive swarm all the time. Last year had 4-5 swarms. Will they let this queen in this hive?


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Well, at least now we know you don't have any laying worker/drone laying queen problem 

A lot of times, a hive swarms simply because it's healthy and it CAN swarm...it's how they reproduce, so the healthy ones can do quite a bit of it if nothing intervenes with their plans. It might pay to look up the "brood checkerboarding" methods; they're mentioned on this site several times, as with some other "Swarm prevention" measures. I'm not very savvy with swarm prevention myself, but I've heard plenty of other beeks swear by the checkerboarding method, and it seems like it'd be easy enough to modify for use in a TBH.


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

robherc said:


> Well, at least now we know you don't have any laying worker/drone laying queen problem
> 
> A lot of times, a hive swarms simply because it's healthy and it CAN swarm...it's how they reproduce, so the healthy ones can do quite a bit of it if nothing intervenes with their plans. It might pay to look up the "brood checkerboarding" methods; they're mentioned on this site several times, as with some other "Swarm prevention" measures. I'm not very savvy with swarm prevention myself, but I've heard plenty of other beeks swear by the checkerboarding method, and it seems like it'd be easy enough to modify for use in a TBH.


Yes, thanks. I did rearrange some bars earlier this spring. Gonna have to get serious about it!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

laurelmtnlover said:


> Why does this hive swarm all the time. Last year had 4-5 swarms.


One of the issues with top bar hives is they are not expandable. Once the hive is full of bees, they have little choice but to swarm. In a Warre or langstroth you just add some more room to the hive so instead of swarming they can turn their energy to storing some surplus honey for you to harvest. But in a TBH, not much you can do.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Yes, there's a finite limit on space in a "normal" TBH, BUT there are several things you can do to have "flex space" in your TBH:

*Build it BIG, and use a follower board to adjust hive size; open more up as the bees fill in, close it back down some as they prepare for winter.
*Use Langstroth type boxes for expansion. I don't know why everyone seems to think there's a concrete difference between Langstroth, Warre, and Top Bar hives; if your TBH is full from end to end, there's no reason why you can't cut a 3/8" slot in the roof & set a super on top of it; you'll just have to be sure to cover that slot if/when you remove all the supers (so light/rain don't get in). I make my TBH hives with 19" top bars that are about 95% Lang. compatible (I'd need to thin the ends of my bars down to 1/2" to hit 100%, otherwise the bee space above the bars would be too small), so standard 10-frame boxes will fit neatly on top of my hive lids.
*Keep up with removing capped honey. If you're using a 4' long TBH with sufficient space that the brood chamber should NEVER get as large as the entire box (mine are the equivalent of 3 10-frame deeps), you can always "make more space" by simply removing all the capped honey and replacing with bars of empty comb (or with empty bars, but those would need to be placed in the brood section to get them drawn out at first).

Every type of hive has its own advantages and disadvantages, but if you're inventive you can be flexible; take advantages from other types and make them work for your hive too


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

Good advice robherc. I'll have to work on supering these hives. I'm just not handy


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