# Bottle Cap and Queen Bee Production method



## Nicksotherhoney (Jun 10, 2017)

I like how simple
And inexpensive it was!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Interesting take on the cell punch method...
I myself would just cut a comb strip and quickly attached to the bar with a few wraps of fishing line.
people just need to learn to graft... beekeeping 102 

I REALY want to knock this... but I have a don't knock it till you have tried it (or someing close) rule these days.... if any of the foundation less come on line this year maybe I will give it a whirl


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> Interesting take on the cell punch method...
> I myself would just cut a comb strip and quickly attached to the bar with a few wraps of fishing line.
> people just need to learn to graft... beekeeping 102
> 
> *I REALY want to knock this*... but I have a don't knock it till you have tried it (or someing close) rule these days.... if any of the foundation less come on line this year maybe I will give it a whirl


LOL.
One thing that I REALLY like about this method (stupid simple and dirt cheap too) - I still feel I'd rather have the bees *themselves *select that magic egg, NOT me.
I wanna try it.


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## Nicksotherhoney (Jun 10, 2017)

I wanna try it as well this year just to see how easy/ practical it could be.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Well - I thought I'd seen everything ...  That's really clever and very ingenious. Like yourself Greg, it's the "allowing the bees to choose" which appeals to me most.

I've already cut-up one plastic bottle - and it would appear that there are PET bottles, and then there are PET bottles, 'cause I couldn't create a sharp edge on mine, no matter how hard I tried. I even took a file to the plastic - but without much success.

However, I've got a small stock of 1000mg Vitamin C tubes ex supermarket, which have a silica gel-like substance in their caps (exhibit 'A' in the following graphic):










If that is cut away, as in 'exhibit B', and a cut-down length of the tube added, (as in 'C') - then that does have a reasonably sharp edge - sharp enough for cutting through new white comb, certainly.

My attempt with the PET bottle is shown as 'D' - hopefully others will have better luck with this than I did.

But - critic's hat on - as much as I love the ingenuity of this, I'm not convinced that it's a significant improvement over the Miller Method. Both require new white comb, and the way I run the Miller Method is not to start cutting fancy shapes and cutting the comb back as Miller himself did, but simply start-off with a part-drawn white comb, place that in the heart of the Breeder Queen's brood-nest, check for laying and then pull it out between 3 and 5 days later - depending on how the Queen was laying. The ideal comb of course is where newly hatched larvae surround a central patch of larvae which are slightly older - that way, the lion's share of the larvae chosen will be close to the lower edge.

One snafu with this method is that fairly often several q/cells are drawn-out together - i.e. touching. That is one way in which the PET-Bottle Method scores over the Miller Method.

But, whatever - I'm certainly going to try the PET-Bottle Method, albeit most probably with cut-down Vitamin C containers ... 
'best
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> But, whatever - I'm certainly going to try the PET-Bottle Method, albeit most probably with cut-down Vitamin C containers ...


LJ, right away I actually thought of trying this method with my pile of plastic medication bottles - I am saving these because Iike 1)how robust they are and 2) the locking cap.
I have made queen cages from the med bottles - work great btw.

So will try the med bottles for this project too to see if they work or not.
Meanwhile, I will look around for PET bottles too (we don't use them at home).

This is also true:
...............One snafu with this method is that fairly often several q/cells are drawn-out together.............
But the video producer has made it clear - "one queen per a bottle" - still nothing to sniff at.
If it amounts to 2-3 cells per a bottle - and only one finalist queen - that too is actually a part of the natural selection process in part. I would not worry of the "wasted" queens.
It just appears less than perfect, but really is a non-issue.

PS: as this video spectator, I am in the same boat as most of you here - I don't understand the audio, whatever the language is - I only go by the video clues and the subs.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Youtube now keeps giving me more vids on this subject.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Any reports on this?

I have tried the approach and here are my findings so far.

PITA if trying to cut the eggs/larva out of the old combs (usual with me) - best to just cut the comb chunks using a stake knife and then insert into the "holder" (unsure what term to use); cutting out of the fresh wax should work as pictured, but even then I'd might prefer a serrated stake knife
need to affix the comb chunks really well into the "holders" (my entire first batch of comb chunks fell out - ended up with a complete redo)
I have ended up with only 3 queen cells (two singles and one double) - the rest of them bees treated as a normal worker brood - that is 3/10 success rate for
I did like how easy it was to simply unscrew the QCs out of the caps and place them into the mating nucs, I just wish I had MORE QCs! For sure I prefer cutting out the eggs and young larva vs. cuting out ripe QCs.
another like is that I was able to generally select the areas of the egg/larva areas that I thought was young enough for the queen raising (without selecting the actual larva) - but this is similar to other methods; look at the frame that I scavenged for it - I went around the edges and select-cut out chunks from the areas where the eggs were just converting into the larvae.

So it is an interesting observation that 7/10 of my offered selections, the bees turned down as queen candidates.
Unsure what this means and what to possibly to improve - be nice to have a better return rate.
The proper larvae region selection could be part of it. I did try selecting larvae from a variety of places - still, not not exactly easy to do in the field conditions.

I used a pretty well packed brood-less nuc for this experiment - about 5-6 frames of young bees and good food supply.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

One thing to improve - need to pre-drill 1-2 little holes into the comb holder - this way a ripe QC can be easily hanged in the mating nuc using a paper clip/wire hook.
Kinda of like this:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> Interesting take on the cell punch method...
> I myself would just cut a comb strip and quickly attached to the bar with a few wraps of fishing line.


Unscrewing and deploying the ready QCs - where the bottle cap really shines, I can tell once I did my trial run.
I really liked it - no different from the grafted queen cell deployment (unlike monkeying with the comb strips with hanging QCs.).

Yesterday I have done both - deployed my bottle caps and also cut/deployed some ready QCs directly from comb elsewhere.
The cap deployment wins hands down (especially with the suggested above improvement).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> people just need to learn to graft... beekeeping 102


I hear you.
But I loaded these caps at about 7-8pm at night after work, without any special setup or tools (but a prepared frame with the caps).
Directly in field too (remote wooded out-yard - simply put, it was dark, and late, and I had my hood on to keep mosquitoes away).
This is worth something.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

I'm going to put this in my Housel file. That is things I don't need to do to in order to successfully keep bees. This idea, IMO, of going to all this effort in order to allow the bees to 'choose' the right egg or larvae to rear as a queen is totally unnecessary. If you graft, the bees will reject any unsuitable larvae, if you do a Smith or Hopkins or whatever method, the bees will also choose which ones to raise from those available. So, the idea seems somewhat misguided to me.
There are a lot of screwy ideas in beekeeping, and IMO, this 'medicine bottle' grafting is one of them.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Greg, I appreciate you posting stuff the Eastern Europeans are doing. I like to experiment and for the most part things they do works great at my location. I was going to graft this afternoon but now I believe I will be giving this a shot tomorrow.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Steve in PA said:


> Greg, I appreciate you posting stuff the Eastern Europeans are doing. I like to experiment and for the most part things they do works great at my location. I was going to graft this afternoon but now I believe I will be giving this a shot tomorrow.


Sure, give it a try and comment/offer improvements.
There are things to improve for sure.
Consider that wire clip mod I propose above - I will certainly do that the next time.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gino45 said:


> This idea, IMO, of going to all this effort in order to allow the bees to 'choose' the right egg or larvae to rear as a queen is totally unnecessary. If you graft, the bees will reject any unsuitable larvae, if you do a Smith or Hopkins or whatever method, the bees will also choose which ones to raise from those available. So, the idea seems somewhat misguided to me.


Can you elaborate:

what is "all this effort" that you see as totally unnecessary? what exact effort? which particular part?
how exactly "the idea seems somewhat misguided"? misguided as opposed the which ideas that you see as "proper"?

Asking as I am still trying to digest this myself.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

I don't see how this is better than msl's method. I have 1 grafting and 2 non-grafting methods. msl's is one of them. I'll choose the convenient one.

When should you avoid grafting? What price point?
What are economic QC cluster sizes for various price points?
Should you do all the larvae thinning on grafting day?


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## GFWestTexas (Jul 10, 2021)

It is very interesting approach, I prefer grafting, primarily as that drawn comb is valuable stuff, to me and most my brood frames have foundation secondary heat around here. However with the correct set up, and the right time of year, in a cooler environment? Keep your results posted want to see how this turns out, has its place for sure.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

SeaCucumber said:


> I don't see how this is better than msl's method. I have 1 grafting and 2 non-grafting methods. msl's is one of them. I'll choose the convenient one.
> 
> When should you avoid grafting? What price point?
> What are economic QC cluster sizes for various price points?
> Should you do all the larvae thinning on grafting day?


1. What grafting when you are - "Directly in field too (remote wooded out-yard - simply put, it was dark, and late, and I had my hood on to keep mosquitoes away). " This is "dirty grafting" - a combination of grafting and punching.
2. What price points?... Assigning a price to an egg? A nano-penny? LOL .. This is such a trivial non-issue to talk about - for you and me with under 20 hives.
OK, yes, I have a double-cell in one of my clusters and so what if one of them will be lost? 
3. Gosh what? Why? Just stop this silliness. 

Here I am raising a single queen batch for the entire summer and for personal use. Why the economic complications?
MSL is making some $$$ and has entire business setup just for that - different project.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

As a matter of fact, forget these bottle caps.
I will make my next setup around the prescription bottles which I have about a hundred by now and unsure what to do with them.
These will be perfect - forget the water bottles.

Take a prescription bottle.
Cut off the very bottom - this is your comb holder.
Optionally sharpen the edge some using a file or something like it.
Optionally drill a couple of holes through the comb holder for easier deployment into the mating nuc using a wire hook/paper clip.
Attach the lids to the "grafting" frame/top bar.
One-time prep is done and should last for years.

The "grafting" process:
Punch through the comb with the comb holder and, thus, load it with egg/larvae sample - about 2-5 per a sample.
Snap the comb holder back to the lid.
Drop the ready set into the starter/finisher hive - done.

PS: I can see how people running plastic foundation will need to use alternative ways - not this one.


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## GFWestTexas (Jul 10, 2021)

Greg, I really think the prescription bottles, are a great idea as they should go through the wax foundation much easier, however what about getting the cells off? Won’t they lock on there? Of course you could dremel or file that locking latch out before hand, guessing as I would have to actually look at one.


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## Nicksotherhoney (Jun 10, 2017)

I like how this is an alternative to all those expensive queen rearing products out there. Just another way to skin the cat I guess!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GFWestTexas said:


> however what about getting the cells off? Won’t they lock on there?


You don't get anything out.
In fact, you *want *the sample to be securely stuck/locked in the holder.
My very first batch failed exactly because my comb samples fell out (was a pretty hot day and they all fell out when I checked back in about 24 hours).
So the comb sample should be securely jammed into the holder so to stay in it (like a drill bit stays in a chuck).

Here is the "dirty grafting" process using medicine bottles (see drawing).

Notice how at the low edge of the bottle I drew some "teeth".
It makes sense to 1)cut the bottom off (assume a jig saw for this) and 2)at once cut in some "teeth" into the edge also also.
Some minimal filing will be needed to cleanup and sharpen the edge.

Your final product will look similar to a drilling gizmo the miners use when they are pulling testing cores from underground.
Our gizmo will operate exactly in the same way - we will get our sample of cells "drilling" through the comb and use that sample to grow the queens.

The comb holder will also have few pre-drilled holes so you have options when deploying ready cells (I drew a wire hook).
Heck, I see a little, cylindrical spice bottle in front of me right now - that will also work.
But the widely available, very sturdy medicine bottles with locking lids should be ideal for this application and probably no need to look any further - in the USA.
It is just our collegues in the East Euro probably don't have these - so they came up with they own local solution.


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## GFWestTexas (Jul 10, 2021)

GregV said:


> You don't get anything out.
> Here is the "dirty grafting" process using medicine bottles.
> 
> Notice how at the low edge of the bottle I drew some "teeth".
> ...


Sorry, Greg
I think my wording was off, I should not have said cells. My question is to the bottle cap locking onto the bottle as it is a prescription bottle. So you do the punch, place it on your queen rearing frame, into a starter/finisher and you get your queen cell. So now you have to remove the bottle holding the new queen cell from the cap in order to transfer your cell.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GFWestTexas said:


> Sorry, Greg
> I think my wording was off, I should not have said cells. My question is to the bottle cap locking onto the bottle as it is a prescription bottle. So you do the punch, place it on your queen rearing frame, into a starter/finisher and you get your queen cell. *So now you have to remove the bottle holding the new queen cell from the cap in order to transfer your cell.*


Got it.
Unscrew.
The bottle cap stay with the frame - it is attached to a top bar by whatever, kinda "permanently".
I used little screws to attach the bottle caps.
Though I really like the med bottle locking caps - very sturdy with a reliable lock.

The bottle body itself - this is what you use to move around the bee eggs/larva and the queen cell(s).
This way you never even touch the queen cells when they are ready to deploy (which is great).
You also never touch the comb sample either - no need.
You handle the comb sample/cells by their holder only.
Bore into the comb; pull a sample; attach the sample; done.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Nicksotherhoney said:


> I like how this is an alternative to all those expensive queen rearing products out there. Just another way to skin the cat I guess!


Absolutely.
With so much useful trash laying around and minimal investment of time and labor - you can do lots of things.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is another point to like about the med bottles - they are just long enough.

I had hard time "drilling" into my dark comb with a very short water bottle "drilling bit" (as shown in the original Euro videos).
This is why I ended up using a stake knife instead to populate my comb holders with comb samples.

Well, the standard med bottle "drill" will be about 3-4 inches long - that will be great for drilling into the comb all way through to get your "core sample" and still have enough handle to work it.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

GregV said:


> no different from the grafted queen cell deployment (unlike monkeying with the comb strips with hanging QCs.).


yes and no, your just pre loading the monkeying..
I love the ingenuity, but it feels like a method looking for a problem to solve.
Or maby I should injection mold a product baised on this concept...

for most I would say a cut strip of comb and a few wraps of fishing line around a top bar and your done... but bee shops are full of all sort of widgets ang gismos


GregV said:


> This is why I ended up using a stake knife instead to populate my comb holders with comb samples.


cut cells are old school




I 3d printed some split cell holders, and in one case used clothes pins cut back to the flat as cell holders


or even faster and less precise cuts my "vampire cells" are another way Considering changing to Langs




















GregV said:


> MSL is making some $$$ and has entire business setup just for that - different project.


you can look at it that way and that is one side of the coin (even though I am very small scale)

The other side is I have spent a LOT of time on scaling queen rearing to be accessible to small hobbyists over the last few years as part of promoting the transition to local stocks. In fact the main motivation for the business was to legitimize my (mostly unpayed) teaching on local sustaibuilty
funny thing... localy no one wanted to listion to me as a "hobbyist"... A year later as a "small scale commercial queen rearer" Ihad much more street cred

currently I am running a state wide program on regional selection and propagation for the CSBA Log into Facebook I have 6 regional clubs running club owned cell builders making a few local queens a week for their members, and more importantly serving as teaching platforms for backyard beekeepers show casing low tech queen rearing with minimal resources (natural cells with timed larva and then caged after capping using my do all box)

Many of the culb queen rearing programs have started grafting on there own (it won't be taught till next year when the culbs have completed the pre recs and there programs are in thier second year and they mentor the next round of 1st year clubs ) and most would never go back, its just too fast and easy compared to the other methods once you gain a little skill. The "just learn to graft" is coming from them. Its one of those things that becomes easy with a little work, kind of like finding a queen.. it seems very hard at 1st, but its not...
To quote one of the club instructors we trained after he ventured in to grafting on his own...


> If you had said this a year ago I would have argued with you, but people just need to learn how to graft.... *_head tilt_ in fact.... I think you did say that, and I did argue


you have been to a club meeting and have seen what they are like, how you can't get anything done or agreed on...
Now think of trying to get 6 clubs to agree to buy/build the same cell builder system, stock it with bees, and use the same queen rearing method so this can be beta tested on a large scale...I talk the talk on BS... but let me assure you I try to walk the walk (I do trip) and put in the time to try to enact change at the land scape scale for the most part the advice I give is biased on the recipient, not my beekeeping practices.[/QUOTE]


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> yes and no, your just pre loading the monkeying.. I love the ingenuity, but it feels like a method looking for a problem to solve.. Cut strip of comb and a few wraps of fishing line around a top bar and your done


I prefer the pre-loading vs. the post-loading.
Now that I have done them both - side by side.
In fact the med. bottle will make the pre-load much simpler too (above).


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

GregV said:


> Can you elaborate:
> 
> what is "all this effort" that you see as totally unnecessary? what exact effort? which particular part?
> how exactly "the idea seems somewhat misguided"? misguided as opposed the which ideas that you see as "proper"?
> ...


Sorry, I walked away from this one. What I was getting at is to me it's just more stuff to deal with in beekeeping. It seems there are all these little items one needs in order to do this. I have too much stuff.
I prefer simple. That is regular grafting or the Miller method. When I graft I can no longer see the larvae due to poor eyesight; however, with my experience I can still have some success with the chinese grafting needle by picking the ones I can't see! The Miller method is easy and I would prefer but for the fact that the queens cells produced are not all started on the same day. With grafting, one can transfer 9 or 10 day cells to their nucs knowing that they are all very close to the same age. I find the queen's produced by the Miller method vary quite a bit as to when they start laying. It's nothing about the quality. Rather it's a hassle when some are ready and some are not which happens for me with the Miller method.
Stealing mature cells from a good hive that is superseding, or even swarming if they have good reason, also work for me.


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## Knoxville1 (8 mo ago)

I hope it's ok that I'm resurrecting this thread. I'm planning on giving this a shot in the next couple of days. I have three nucs that are queenless at the moment. Does anyone have any suggestions?


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## Nicksotherhoney (Jun 10, 2017)

Keep us posted on how it goes!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Knoxville1 said:


> I hope it's ok that I'm resurrecting this thread. I'm planning on giving this a shot in the next couple of days. I have three nucs that are queenless at the moment. Does anyone have any suggestions?


Good deal you are trying this.
Yes - do report back.

Reason I am not doing this method because I got into mini-frames this season.
With the mini-frames I use the entire frame with a QC on it OR easily slice out a section of a comb and insert it into another mini-frame.

That medicine bottle method assumes full sized nucs used for the queen raising and mating - a little too expensive to my taste.
I have all my nucs needed in the splitting and swarm trapping - hate using them for mating too.
So this foam mini nuc/frame took over for the season.


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## Knoxville1 (8 mo ago)

I will report back on my experience. I discovered yesterday that somewhere in the last month I caught a swarm in a five frame box but with two frames in it. I went out at nightfall last night to haul it out of the understory in the woods. It was really heavy, so I suspect full of comb and bees. I'm thinking that when I cut and re-assemble into a 5 or 8 frame nuc, I might load the medicine bottles. Greg, I follow along what you post about your free standing foam cooler's but I'm still to inexperienced to exactly understand your whole process. I made my own boxes and frames from inexpensive eastern cedar so other than time they weren't real expensive.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Knoxville1 said:


> . I made my own boxes and frames from inexpensive eastern cedar so other than time they weren't real expensive.


Understand that "expensive" is not about direct amount of money involved.
Not at all.
Never was meant to be.

Expensive is more about how much resource it takes to do something.

If it takes too much bee (e.g. full size colony) to raise a single queen - that is very expensive (since the same colony could have raised 5-10 queens just the same).
These bees should be carrying honey, not standing about warming the hive.

Right now I have 13 active foam coolers in my mini-farm; there will be more too.
All of these bees combined will fill a single deep box IF that.
So I have at least 12 queens in various stages across this mini-farm (more queens is to come on-line too).
All of that activity using amount of bees equivalent to a single deep box.
Now that is a cheap operation.


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## Knoxville1 (8 mo ago)

Well...I had to abort my project. I only have two queen right hives, which is why I was trying to make queens. I run mostly foundationless frames, but the suitable brood I located happened to be on the few plastic foundation I have. So what I thought would be easy turned out to be not doable. (For me). I definitely want to try this next year.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Knoxville1 said:


> Well...I had to abort my project. I only have two queen right hives, which is why I was trying to make queens. I run mostly foundationless frames, but the *suitable brood I located happened to be on the few plastic foundation I have. *So what I thought would be easy turned out to be not doable. (For me). I definitely want to try this next year.


Partially why I avoid plastic.


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