# A split that seems to be laying worker, yet a queen cell was made.



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Laying worker hives commonly build queen cells as a last ditch, but hopeless, attempt to survive. The queen cells contain drones and die around pupation.

Also in LW hives when there is a lot of drone brood, much of it will have domed caps typical of drone brood, but some may have lower caps that look like worker caps, but the cells still contain drones.

Your best use of this hive will be to add the bees to a properly functioning hive. Kill the drone brood by running your hive tool over the cappings. If you allow this large number of drones to hatch into a small hive the effect can be very disruptive.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Thanks Oldtimer. The signs were very conflicting. I intended to shake it out far away from the other hives and destroy the drone brood, but I was scratching my head about it today, especially what looked like worker brood. Any recommendations on the shake out and the risks of the laying workers effecting the other nucs?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Laying worker hives commonly build queen cells as a last ditch, but hopeless, attempt to survive. The queen cells contain drones and die around pupation.


You are a wealth of knowledge OT and I am thankful that you post on these odd ball situations.:thumbsup:


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If there really is worker brood, then you have a queen who can lay at least some fertile eggs, and this queen would represent a threat to the good queen of another hive she may end up in.

But even if this queen does exist she is not worth saving. So the procedure would be to shake the bees out at least 10 or more yards from the nearest other hive so that even if there is a queen, she cannot fly to another hive. What you need to avoid is shaking right in front of another hive so the bees can walk in _en mass_, including the queen if there is one.

People use methods such as scraping the caps, freezing, etc to kill the drone brood, after which if you have a hive strong enough to tackle the job the combs can be put in one at a time, mid brood nest, for cleaning.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Just another thought, it does occasionally happen in my mating nucs that a slow queen can start laying after laying workers have developed, this is very hard to diagnose looking at a nice queen but not sure if she is actually laying properly but this is being camouflaged by the LW eggs. Only time can tell but it normally takes several more weeks for LW egg laying to stop and the queen take over. Generally for me, the time investment is not worth it because mostly, there is something wrong with the queen, I'm better to cut my losses, kill her, and start over.

The bees in your hive building a queen cell would also indicate that even if a queen exists, the bees are not happy with her.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Thanks again Oldtimer. I appreciate your time and thoughts. My 12 year old daughter and I have looked through the 5 frame nuc a couple times in the last week but can't find any queen. We generally have no problems finding the queens easily enough in the Q right hives, so we are fairly sure there is none. It could have been that the queen was taken out last week and workers are just being capped. I do remember a week ago that the queen cell had an early small larva in it. I did have plans to just shake it out, but my curiosity in this may keep it around for a learning opportunity. What's another week to see what becomes of the cell? I may watch it for a few more days. Call it a science experiment. Do you think a poor new queen has no ability to produce a good queen with a superseded queen? Just a curiousity. 

What about eggs at the bottom center of the cells? The cells are drawn deep as they ought. Could laying workers accomplish that sometimes since I often read they would deposit eggs on the walls?


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## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

I had a split that had a poorly mated queen. They tried to supercede her, but didn't get a new queen. Then it started with a laying worker. I added a frame of eggs/brood from my main hive every week for 2 weeks. (Would have done the 3 that Michael Bush's page recommends, but they didn't need it). In the 2nd week, I found a frame with a capped queen cell on it, so I moved that over. There wasnt any evidence of laying workers at this point. That cell hatched, but the queen didn't make it back. At this point, I gave up trying to get them to raise their own queen and bought a mated queen from a local beekeeper, and added her in a cage with wax covering the candy to keep her in there a few extra days. I removed the wax 2 days after placing her cage in the hive. They released her and she is laying like crazy.

This was my first experience with a split, so I'm not saying it always will work, but it worked well for me.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

michkel, If the season wasn't winding down, I would be considering righting the hive, but I determined in the beginning of the splits that they were a one shot deal and combine what didn't work out. I am glad yours worked out well so far. I am sure attempting to right a laying worker hive is an experiment for me in the future. Thanks.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If it's a learning experience then yes, let things play out a bit longer to see what becomes of the cell.

Laying workers will sometimes have eggs nicely placed one to the centre of the cell, but if there are too many like that I would suspect a queen. Guess time will tell!


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## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

DanielD said:


> michkel, If the season wasn't winding down, I would be considering righting the hive, but I determined in the beginning of the splits that they were a one shot deal and combine what didn't work out. I am glad yours worked out well so far. I am sure attempting to right a laying worker hive is an experiment for me in the future. Thanks.


I think the key was I caught them early on, so it wasn't as hard to break it. Why I had so much difficulty? I have no idea. There were plenty of drones in the area at the time. The first queen was on mating flights when we had huge thunderstorms, so I understand why she didn't work out. But the others is just a mystery.

The split now has a good population (thanks to the nurse bees added into it with the frames of eggs/brood) and the new queen is laying like crazy, so in a few short weeks, it will probably be bursting at the seams. Our weather doesn't get bad for a few more months, so they should have time to build up for winter. I just hope we have a winter this year. (no winter last year, which is why our drought is so bad)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>One question, would a laying worker hive cap a drone in a queen cell?

Yes.

http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#fertileworkersqueencells
http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#maleeggsinroyalcells

> It's a fine enough looking queen cell. 

Yes. But if you look closely the capping will be shaped like a dome...

>Another question, can there be a laying worker and a queen cell being produced in this situation? 

Yes.

>Does anyone have an idea what's going on in this hive?

Yes. See above links.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Duplicate


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