# Be gentle I am new to this. the Subject is making splits



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Be genital I am new to this. the Subject is making splits*

May I recommend spell check. I'm sure you meant gentle, not genital. Unless you were being funny.


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

*Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits*

spell check is what did me in to began with. Sorry No funny anywhere here


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Be genital I am new to this. the Subject is making splits*

welcome 6010. mark is kind of a perfectionist.

yes, you could do that. especially if you don't mind feeding if there isn't much nectar flowing.

they will need a strong nectar flow or syrup feeding if you expect them to draw new comb.

at the end of summer, you will want them strong enough and heavy enough to make it through winter.

how strong and how heavy depends on your location. this is why getting hooked up with some local beekeepers or joining a club is a good idea.

good luck.


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits*

I suggest letting them build up into strong colonies the first year and splitting the second.

The year before last I had only one survive winter, my first with significant losses. It went bonkers and in May I found a half dozen queen cells. I split them into two single deeps with the queen cells and had three strong hives going into winter. Early last April I did a "walk away split" per Michael Bush and later the prior split threw the biggest swarm I've caught to bring me back to five colonies at no cost, if you don't count the two lethargic packages I bought in an effort to replace losses that died despite my best efforts.

These five hives along with three others given away, those losses and a few failed colonies including TBH experiments originated from my first package eight or so years ago. As a small scale keeper, if I really tried, I'd have more colonies than time if I managed for increases through walk away splits. I prefer my splits with mutt queens who are acclimated to our location over packages.

BTW, by Michael's bee math, a walk away split raises a queen in the same time as any other method with very little effort.

Good luck and hope this helps


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## Steven Tervort (Feb 16, 2012)

*Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits*

Yes, if everything goes perfect. It may not be as simple as pulling off a box and putting a queen in it. You will need to split the stores and brood as evenly as possible. Also, you'll have to keep a close eye on them. I've found that the hives I start in 5 frame boxes seem to build up quickly and swarm. Seems like a good experiment.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits*

If you are looking to build numbers that quickly, I would suggest buying 5 frame nucs from the start. It seems that you want to run 5 frame boxes, which is OK, but not the normal course. If you want to get to your 4 nucs from 1 by end of summer, olan on buying mated queens for your new splits and plan on feeding a lot of sugar syrup. Also plan on things not going exactly how you plan.

My reccomendation would be to let the hive build up the first year, and split the following spring. I would also suggest that you begin with more than 1 hive.


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

*Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits*

Well truth is I will be starting with three packages. One started the traditional way in a 10 frame deep hive and that will be my "Honey" hive. The second hive will be started in a 10 frame but will be the support hive for the Honey hive donating frames of brood to the to it to build up the "numbers" as quickly as possible. I will keep it in a single deep form spring through early summer keeping population down by the donating the frames of brood to the honey hive. then let build up to a second box for stores for it to winter. Then the third package will be split as much as possible within reason of course. stopping by mid July/august so all the splits can catch-up and make the most of the fall flow of nectar. I realize I will be going through a lot of sugar syrup this next year. At least that is the game plan. Other wise if I start in the traditional way I will have three hives with no honey. And this would be an interesting project


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits*

a lot of the fun in beekeeping is trying things and see what happens. you will learn as much or more from mistakes as anything, (ask me how i know )

as was mentioned above, things don't always go like you think they might, but if you like to experiment, and aren't easily frustrated, go for it!


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

*Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits*

An awful lot of anal retentive here to go with the genital. Your idea was plainly stated, to me at least. You could indeed expand your numbers just like you described. There are devils in the details though. Getting queens for those splits, when you need them can be a problem. The second splitting would find queens readil available and cheap though. Bees do very well building up in five frame nuc boxes because they can better keep the brood nest warm. Do yourself a favor and do not use a screened bottom board as it makes that climate control harder for small clusters in a nuc. Good luck.


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

*Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits*

You are right Vance G the details are a devil, I have a queen breeder couple hour drive from me, and was kind of hopping there might be a queen cell or two show up in some of the hives. the I would be transfer as needed. I would not do any splits unless there was queens. thanks for the input


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

weldingfreak6010 said:


> Here is the Question. Say I wanted to start a colony from say a package in April in Nuc box 5 frame and say if everything worked out right in say 4 weeks give or take, Put an second 5 frame box on it. Then in say few weeks when it was full, pull the second box off and put queen in it. Then I should have two good nucs now right. Then let the two new boxes fill a second set of boxes. Wouldn't I not have 4 nucs with the addition of a couple of queens in the two new boxes. then let the 4 5 frame boxes grow into 2-3 5 frame boxes for the winter. If you understand what I am trying to say. thanks


Sure, that should work, if you have the know how and the flows come and come well. It is good to set goals high. Be prepared to fall back to fewer when they don't fill out as you hoped.

If you overwinter your nucs successfully in two story five frame nucs you should be able to split some of those nucs come Spring, May, maybe April, into three nucs each, by buying cells or queens.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I can tell you this. I had one hive go from 5 fraems to 20 in four weeks. The next did not draw out 10 full frames all summer. So don't be surprised when you find the bees work according to their math.

Early in the spring they will draw comb like mad. Later in the summer the only bees I could get to draw comb was my strong double deep colony. So they made comb for two nucs I had put together late in the season. I am probably goign to have to start feeding those nucs soon. I don't think they have enough honey to get through the winter. So far so good though.

So if you get the timing right I can see your idea working. you will have to manage the details though.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I am with Dan on this one. First year started with a couple nucs and was given a third hive, drawing the foundation was the challenge. They seemed to want to fill up the lower box and not move up. They swarmed on me before drawing the pierce plastic (before I learned to paint wax on it). I had one go queenless and tried giving them brood from the other hive until it was too weak and did not make its own queen. The third box I gave to the in laws on the other side of town. All he did was report it swarmed after filling both boxes and filling the top of the telescoping hive with honey. 3 hives, 3 different results. Next year I had drawn comb. I put some in swarm traps (got 2) did a split and started 4 nucs. Its all about the drawn comb (IMHO). SQWRK, did I spell nuc correctly? I got red lines all through this docoument.


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

I do not know if it will make a difference but i am going to be using wax foundation for every thing. Also I am waiting for the second box to fill up if it doesn't then no harm no foul. it is not like i am taking a double deep 10 frame and splitting it up into 10 separate 5 frame nucs and hoping they take-off before winter hits like some do.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

There is no harm no foul anyway. If you split too soon and slow the bees down, one can always recombine. Heavily feeding and supplying high quality pollen sub to suppliment what the bees gather will grow a lot of bees too. They are your bees and if you aren't depriving wife or children, do whatever you want. Just keep the equipment small to match the cluster and expand as the population does. Follower boards of Aluminum clad styrofoam work well and you can easily expand or contract the area the bees have to heat.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

To encourage the bees to draw comb in the second nuc box just move a frame of brood up from the lower box once it is full. Bees hate to have undrawn comb next to brood and will move up and proceed to work the foundation next to it. That is what I would do.


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

Thanks I was just wondering about that keth


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## urbanoutlaw (Nov 19, 2012)

Can someone indulge my curiosity?

Along with all the other caveats that have been mentioned, is this plan reliant upon a location having a fall flow? Recombining any weak nucs to prep for overwintering?


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

If you don't have a flow and you want comb drawn, you'll have to feed a lot of sugar syrup.


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

Yes fully intend to give the boxes going to winter every reasonable chance to make it through winter


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

Yes it is, My intention is to make the splits and hope the fall flow is enough, But the backup plan is to combine the weak nucs if needed and winter the rest taking all necessary precautions I.E. fondant/candy boards ventilation etc


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## urbanoutlaw (Nov 19, 2012)

Interesting. I was wondering if adequate feeding would be a sufficient substitute in absence of a fall flow. Looks like the answer is yes, although, I'm sure there are 100 caveats to that too. 

We won't have the hives or space to do this first year, but I'd be interested to see how your plan works out and maybe try to pull it off next year.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Plans are nice, but the bees seldom do what you expect when you expect it. They may take off faster than you think, or slower. You may be able to do more splits or none. I'd play it by ear.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

The truth is I got the inspiration from Mel Disselkoen and his site and Video I seen on YouTube. On how he did his splits in spring summer. I figure if all else fails I can recombine as necessary and go from there. Even if I can get same number I started with or one two extra hives to take-off by next spring I think would call it a success / lucky.


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## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

if it works for you thats the way to do it.you could do the same thing later and not have it work. hhhhhmmmm!


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

Vance G said:


> Follower boards of Aluminum clad styrofoam work well and you can easily expand or contract the area the bees have to heat.


 I like this idea will try this spring thanks


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

yeah i would recommend just buying 5 or more NUCS and splitting what you can. bottomline is that you cant rush them or count on what you think may happen. and the colony just needs to be acclimated and over wintered to strengthen the colony and queen. im not being negative and i only have a year and a half experience but i tried to do what you are looking to do and it just doesnt work out like it sounds. not to mention that you are counting on just splitting your brood boxes up. you have to remember that a colony needs certain things in those frames to make it. brood,nectar,honey,pollen,eggs,queen cells,royal jelly.............. its pretty involved my friend.


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

Thankyou I will take your advice and seriously consider it. That is why I posted it on here to get the input from different people and see what the general conscious is on the idea I posted. thanks again


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

6010 - I'll chime in with Throrope, Daniel Y, and Michael Bush. That first spring split is most often an easy one on good years, that second split doesn't usually happen without making a colony that peters out before the next year is through. It is often better to build a strong colony. You'll get to know by how many bees are coming and going out the front opening before they swarm after a couple years, and by listening very carefully, when it is time to split. Feeding makes a difference, but not like a nectar flow.

I'd recommend a few things - 1) read Dr. Lawrence John Connor's book, Increase Essentials, 2) re-queen using a Laidlaw-type queen introduction cage (photos in his book, Contemporary Queen Rearing), 3) stay equipment ahead of the bees.

Many of us had the exact same dream - getting into a business that can quadruple itself every year. It _can_ happen, it just _doesn't_ happen very often, but a 4-box tall, over-wintered colony can be split into 6 nucs! Which method is more likely to put you waist-deep in bees?

We refine our skills with many years' experience to get to know the answers, and the best beekeepers have made the most mistakes, _but learned from them!_ And they stuck to it, after a lot of stings and frustration. Good luck!


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

Thank-you for that I see your point and completely understand where you are coming from, I do have a dream a very ambitious dream that may or may not get shattered, but I will am willing to try with the help of people like you giving me pointers along the way . as far as the second split I will not do anymore splits then what I think the bees can handle. I can not make a large bee population of bees if I kill them off :no:


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

well just as an update this weekend i just bought 6 used deep boxes with empty frames for $60 from an old state inspector boxes where in good condition and frames half of them year old, now have to get tops and bottoms ??????????????????


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Good going - there's 3) stay equipment ahead of the bees!

Did you read 1) Larry Connor's book Increase Essentials? He really explains the math of increaser colonies, and the differences between a package bee colony with a foreign queen (which rarely is successful enough to make one split) vs. an Over-Wintered Nucleus colony (OWN), which actually has a good chance of making 2 splits.

Have you made a few Laidlaw-type queen introduction cages? There is no better way to introduce a new queen.

Good Luck, buddy!


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

I like what everyone is writing. Many of you have helped me since I started 3 years ago. I did a bunch of splits because I tried different queen rearing techniques and would try to keep the nice swarm cells I saw. Part of what I experienced was that I needed frames of young brood for the new queen cells to get started so it becomes a balancing act of taking some but not too much from the stronger hives to get the new ones going strong. If I didn't give the queens a certain number of young bees the queen wouldn't take off in some cases. Then I would add some more frames of larvae and then boom the queen would start laying. Making splits taught me a bunch of things and gave me a better eye for spotting queens. There will be a bunch of variables as others have suggested. I just bought Dr. Lawrence John Connor's book, Increase Essentials Thanks for the recommendation kilocharlie

http://www.amazon.com/Increase-Essen...pr_product_top


If your packages are excellent I would say you will be able to take from them but it may deplete the number of worker bees in those colonies and that may affect the strength of them as far as their ability to pack away the honey they will need and have to cap. I think it might be easier to do this the second year because at least in my case the second year the bees produced a bunch of beautiful swarm cells and were plenty strong to take some frames from. The package bees I have purchased have done well some better than others but In general in our area the package bees if managed so they don't swarm are just about right to get strong enough to have stores before winter. If you plan to buy queens it will help and if you have drawn comb that will help but if your bees have too much to do it may thin them too much so you will have to keep your eye on the weather and queen strength and how much food they are bringing in etc. I hope it works out for you and the weather cooperates and stuff. It will definitely teach you things and probably provide you with some surprises.
Good Luck!!!


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

kilocharlie said:


> Good going - there's 3) stay equipment ahead of the bees!
> 
> Did you read 1) Larry Connor's book Increase Essentials?


No but it is on my list of books to read



kilocharlie said:


> Have you made a few Laidlaw-type queen introduction cages? There is no better way to introduce a new queen.
> 
> Good Luck, buddy!


I will look into those style cages not familiar with that name of cage


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## JonnyBeeGood (Aug 2, 2012)

Great discussion here! I am a first year beekeeper getting close to successfully wintering my first hive. I started last may with a 5 frame nuc from Rick at NEBEES and they thrived and grew so fast that I couldn't believe it. I thought about doing a late split was concerned they wouldn't build up enough in time for winter.
I do plan to split them in the spring and I have also ordered 2 packages for March 25th. My goal is to be able to build them up enough in 2 months to be able to sell 2 good 5 frame Nucs, re-queen and still have a minimum of 3 hives. 
My existing hive has wintered in 2 deeps and that is what I plan to use for the new packages as well. I'm thinking I can steal a few frames from my existing hive to get the packages going faster, but I do not really want to cut into honey production from my over wintered hive. 😁 
Any thoughts as to what i should give the 2 packages for frames?


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## CtyAcres (Apr 8, 2012)

6010, Give Mel Disselkoen's OTS splitting method a chance. It really works.


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## JonnyBeeGood (Aug 2, 2012)

Rick, as I read back it looks like I'm trying to hijack your thread. Sorry, that wasn't my intention.


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

JonnyBeeGood said:


> Rick, as I read back it looks like I'm trying to hijack your thread. Sorry, that wasn't my intention.


No worries here on my part, I was just as curious as you are


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

CtyAcres said:


> 6010, Give Mel Disselkoen's OTS splitting method a chance. It really works.



Mels style of splits has peaked my interest as much as Mike Palmer and Mike Bush style of bee keeping. I am open to anyway that works and probuces the results I am wanting


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## CtyAcres (Apr 8, 2012)

Rick- Mel improved upon C.C Miller and Doolittle's methods and it beats the varroa cycle if you
have that problem. It relies also on July splits, which give you good young queens going into
winter.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

6010 - A little bit of info: the late Dr. Harry Hyde Laidlaw developed the best queen introduction cage to date. He was a professor at the University of California at Davis (the bee research center there is named for him). The best model of his push-in queen introduction cages was a 5" wide x 7" long x 7/8" tall (inside dimensions) rectangle of wood, covered on top with #8 hardware cloth, and the inside chamber was surrounded by a sheet metal strip protruding 3/8" below the wooden rectangle. There is no queen candy release port. Sometimes the queen takes longer than the candy lasts to get accepted by the host colony, resulting in her being attacked and often killed.

With the Laidlaw push-in queen intro cage, the beekeeper brushes empty of bees a comb that is quite level, with an area of mostly empty worker-sized cells (but about 10% capped honey and pollen), he places the mated queen onto the comb, then traps her under the cage* without* attendant bees from her own colony, pushing the sheet metal strip into the comb all the way down to the wood. He then replaces this piggy-backed cage/frame combo back into the hive for at least 2 days (longer as necessary - up to 40 days in some cases). 

He watches the behavior of the bees before releasing the queen. If they appear to be making a "ball" over the queen cage, they are attacking her. If you see attending bees feed her, she is becoming accepted. The large area under the cage gives her room to begin laying eggs. Laying increases her queen substance production, particularly pheromones, that greatly promote acceptance by the host colony. 

100% acceptance rates are often experienced using Laidlaw push-in queen introduction cages, quite useful as your taste in high-quality queens goes up the price-per-queen scale (also get a queen muff! I hate watching even a $20.00 queen escape and fly away, let alone a $100 I.I. queen, or worse a one-of-a-kind queen with unique genetics).

The cages are shown in his book, Contemporary Queen Rearing, available through Dadant and Sons. When I read this, I went to the shop and made a run of 50 of them - enough for all my hives at the time. My only modification was to make them so they fit into an empty Miller-type hive top feeder for convenient storage. The 7/8" depth under the hardware cloth (or screen) keeps her safe from attacking bees who seek to pull off a leg or wing, etc. The metal strip and wide wooden rectangle frustrates attacking bees from killing the introduced queen by digging under a push-in cage without these features in order to get at her. Note - if you are using all medium depth boxes, make the outside dimensions so the queen cage fits your frames.

CtyAcres - Mel Disselkoen's method does indeed produce excellent queens, my only criticism is that the flour wastes lots of brood, which is not that big a problem if you have lots of strong colonies. I like Dr. Susan Cobey's article, "The Cloake Board Method of Queen Rearing and Queen Banking".

Virginiawolf - Glad you liked Increase Essentials! I can't wait to get all of Dr. Connor's books, and take one of his classes, too! He's awesome.


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

Well just as an update to all you I have just ordered my package of bees. It is from Georgia bees. If money allows I will try for a couple of local nucs and already have a few cutouts scheduled for next month hopefully. I will try to implement the plan developed in this thread. Thanks all


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Dr. Connor really explains the differences in colony growth rate mathematics in Increase Essentials. If the bees make it through the first year with a decent buildup, store lots of honey & pollen, and overwinter successfully, you should be able to split once and maybe even twice, depending on how next year goes for nectar flows. I would have ordered overwintered nucleus colonies or a full, thriving hive ready to split. I've always had better luck that way - the growth rates are there for splitting twice - way stronger than most package bee performance. You just need the year (nectar and pollen flows, really) to go good, too. Good Luck!


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

kilocharlie said:


> Dr. Connor really explains the differences in colony growth rate mathematics in Increase Essentials. If the bees make it through the first year with a decent buildup, store lots of honey & pollen, and overwinter successfully, you should be able to split once and maybe even twice, depending on how next year goes for nectar flows. I would have ordered overwintered nucleus colonies or a full, thriving hive ready to split. I've always had better luck that way - the growth rates are there for splitting twice - way stronger than most package bee performance. Good Luck!


Thanks for the update i will differently give that a read


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Just one more goody for you, Rick - if you aggressively pursue both comb honey production and queen rearing, you will get very, very good at a higher rate. The learning curve is kind of mean at first, but it will put pressure on you to really understand what's happening.

By producing honey-in-the-comb, you will get very skilled at knowing when the bees will swarm and what to do about it. Bees only make "perfect" square boxes of comb (filled and capped all the way to the corners) under ideal conditions, and when crowded like right before swarming. Read Dr. C.C. Miller's Fifty Years Among the Bees (there are other good books about honey-in-the-comb, too). You will also know exactly when to split colonies. 

Queen rearing will get you understanding about high quality queens with good genetics vs. medium and low quality queens with undesirable traits.

These are perhaps the two most difficult-to-learn aspects of beekeeping. My attitude was, "Bring it on!" I read everything I can on both subjects, apply it to my situation, and ask lots of questions. I'm always trying new equipment, but then, I'm gagety, and an engineer/carpenter/machinist/millwright/gunsmith, so go figure. Oh, yeah and a fisherman and archer, too, so triple the "gagety" factor, haha.

Going hard at these two aspects of beekeeping, and keeping a notebook will have you making 2 splits a year as often as Mama Nature will let you and your girls do so sooner than you might have otherwise.


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

I want to thank you all for your helpful comments, Just as an update I am getting my package of bees this Monday and hooked up with the local swarm catcher and will hopefully have more bees in a another month or so. I will be implementing the info I have gleaned from all of you and with any luck I will reach my goal of 5 hives making it through winter. I will try to keep updated here if interested.


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

Well just as an update to my dreams/plans I was proposing. The packages took 2 months to draw out 7 of the 10 frames and she finally died I am in the process of re-queening , but the two swarms I caught filled 10 frames in three weeks and are starting on a second deep by the fourth week now right inline with what i thought would happen with the package last April. Oh well at least I got the three hives I was hoping for.


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## CtyAcres (Apr 8, 2012)

Rick- Did you feed sugar water or sugar syrup solution to your pkgs? How about the swarms,
did you feed them sugar water to them too?


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

Oh CtyAcres I kept the package fed for over a month straight and barley any progress the swarms both got one jar of syrup and that was it bit have some strips of capped honey on there frames now figure I was ones with the Bad queen that come out of Georgia that people talk about here on the forum. It was my first and only hive for a month so I had no other one to compare it to til the swarm, then I "seen the light" so to speak.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

This is a really good post, I'll jump in with my 2 cents. I split nucs like you mention in your op all the time for mating nuc resources. The later you split them, the more likely you will have to feed or combine in the fall. and the more careful you will have to be to guard against robbing. Like others have said, it will be a trial and error learning curve on your end we have all gone or are going through.

My 2 cents will be, remember, the size of the hives and nuc going into the winter will determine your ability to capitalize on a spring flow. Large hives will have enough foragers to collect nectar and pollen and allow the hive to achieve early spring growth. Nucs will be able to collect enough to sustain themselves, but will not have enough to actively grow. With nectar available and they will not take up syrup ether-since they like the nectar better. 'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink' That is the way I felt this spring when my overwintered nucs wouldn't grow much but wouldn't take up syrup. Smaller nucs will also feel the stress even with a small mite load that time of year.

So next spring, don't plan on those nucs growing fast enough to split early on. Some will requeen themselves and there will be a lack of growth because of an early brood break. All well and good as long as you are not wanting them to grow fast enough to split early on. Like a lot of things with beekeeping, you really need to do double the task to get what you want out of the deal. 

I had good luck overwintering nucs with a sugar brick and protein patty on top, even though they had plenty of stores. I wondered how they could have open nectar in the cells next to the brood area in January. Must have been from the sugar. Special recipe too I'll share later.. I plan to write a thread on this with photos right before fall.










So all in all, would you be better off overwintering a bunch of nucs or a few larger hives? Do the math and count the frames, then consider the predicted springtime growth will be for each and where that will put your numbers-say mid summer 2014. 

With nucs you wil have more queens available and suffer less of a loss with a couple nucs than a couple large hives. But larger hives are probably easier to overwinter. With all those nucs, queens and no real springtime growth.. are you better off? 
Seems an easy choice. Just have a bunch of overwintered nucs and queens and then strengthin them with brood and stores from the strong big hives. But when it comes right down to digging in those flourishing big hives and breaking them up, do you really want to do that? 

Always a give and take. And when you don't have the experience..sometimes it is not as easy to decide what is the right move.

I overwinter colonies of all sizes. Overwintered Production hives that are strong ,nucs and mating nucs I have let grow. Don't have my eggs all in one basket I guess. I am using Apivar now, so my large hives will not be so hard to manage after the flow. Before Apivar was approved in my state this year, I had planned to split all my large hives into single deeps after the flow so I could manage with ether hop guard or a brood break/new queen. Lots of options to think about. All need to be considered for your climate, timing and day length and resources available.
Also remember, this opinion is based on my experience with my management method and with in my climate. You may or may not have the same success depending on your situation.

Michael Bush writes: 'Everything works if you let it"
Someone else on Beesource wrote: "Everything works if you follow the rules"

There is a quote I also like: " You usually get the experience you need...right AFTER you need it" 
That quote MUST have been written by a beekeeper!


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## weldingfreak6010 (Sep 11, 2012)

Thank you Lauri that was insightful and give me so pearls of wisdom to ponder for now.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

You're welcome. Like so many posts I write, I am in a hurry to get back to work and rush through my replies. It probably could have been worded better to make my meaning more clear. I hope you can make heads or tails of it


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