# Set It and Forget It?



## BeeDuto (Apr 19, 2018)

My brother has a house in central NY. His property seems like an amazing place for a hive. There are lush fields all around with dandelions, clover, buttercups, wild geraniums and dames rocket. He also has tons of honeysuckle bushes. When I was there over the Mem Day weekend all I could think about was how great a hive would do there. The issue is it’s 3.5 hours away so I can’t do regular inspections. 

Here’s my idea. Next spring a make a 3-5 frame split from my house at home. Let them create a queen and then bring the hive up there. Since I may not be able to check on in over a month, maybe 2, could I just set it up with lots of extra space for them to grow into. I was thinking a single deep with a QE, then deep super and med super above that. 

What’s the worst that can happen? 

They swarm? Ok. Then they’ll make a new queen and keep going. 

Skunk attack? I could add a board with nails on the floor so it can’t get near the entrance to swat at bees. 

What are my other risks? (No bears to worry about)


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

BeeDuto said:


> What’s the worst that can happen?
> 
> )


how about all the beeks in the neighbor hood get infected with your mites or diseases while you watch your hive in your back yard.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i agree with '07.

there's little risk to you, but potentially serious risk to other bees in the area.

as a victim of others' 'set it and forget it' approach in my opinion there is nothing more irresponsible one can do with bees.

either commit to making a reasonable effort that any bees under your care don't become an avoidable problem to neighboring bees or forget it.


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## Alex Madsen (Aug 26, 2018)

Mites. But if you can get to it every 2 months I would think you can manage that.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Alex Madsen said:


> Mites. But if you can get to it every 2 months I would think you can manage that.


Boston area has some good forage, about equal distance to Boston as he is looking at in NY, would you like him setting it down next to your hives?


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## Thomas Frazier (Aug 25, 2015)

Maybe a better solution is to get your brother interesting in beekeeping. Then he can handle the weekly maintenance, and you can come up once a month for mentoring.


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## BeeDuto (Apr 19, 2018)

squarepeg said:


> i agree with '07.
> 
> there's little risk to you, but potentially serious risk to other bees in the area.
> 
> ...


Judging by the remoteness of the area I doubt I’d be infringing on other beeks. 

I also may disagree with regard to the spreading of mites since I wouldn’t be treating till mid summer anyway. Moot point no? 

Also, how would my hive be different than a wild hive or a omeone else's bees could swarm, have mites, and become a wild unmanaged hive.


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## dr4ngas (Mar 19, 2014)

All good points. I would do the split and boxes as you mentioned but no queen excluder. Wont you need 2 deeps to over winter in any how? The thing to think about maybe feeding the hive in the beginning. As suggested maybe getting your brother to keep the basic checks on the hive for you.


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## BeeDuto (Apr 19, 2018)

It’s a vacation house. No one will be there. I would most likely overwinter in a single deep the way I did at home.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

BeeDuto said:


> Also, how would my hive be different than a wild hive or a omeone else's bees could swarm, have mites, and become a wild unmanaged hive.


if we follow that logic why should anyone anywhere give a crap about what impact the bees they choose to place might have on other bees in the area?

interesting that you are concerned about your risks, but based on your comments it appears you aren't terribly concerned about potential risks beyond your own.

that each and every colony to a greater or lesser extent impacts the local metapopulation is an inconvenient truth that gets lost on many these days it seems.

in a conversation about this with my state apiarist last week his comment was 'the beekeeping world has pretty much become the wild wild west'. he was referring to the influx of hundreds of new beekeepers into our state over the past few years and the inability of our state's small apiary protection unit to accomplish its mission.

he was right.

by all means set it and forget it. might as well put a flow hive on top so your brother can tap himself a quart every now and then.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

BeeDuto said:


> It’s a vacation house. No one will be there. I would most likely overwinter in a single deep the way I did at home.


so what county is it in, might make a difference.


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

>I also may disagree with regard to the spreading of mites since I wouldn’t be treating till mid summer anyway. Moot point no? 

No not moot. In fact, this logic supports squarepeg's argument. You will be treating in late August. But if your hive swarms before then, you will be sending mite bombs up to the trees where they will be safe from your August treatments. I'm glad you are not my neighbor or anywhere near me. 

If they ever pass what you feel are unneccessary bee laws in your state, make sure you at least consider the fact that you may have contributed to them. 

Please reconsider your plan for this location. It's the responsible thing to do.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

my apologies beeduto and to the forum for the snarky tone above.

i spent my afternoon burning 300 frames of drawn comb that couldn't be salvaged following an efb epidemic that most likely resulted from the 'setting and forgetting' of some hives near mine.


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

The hive will make a nice snack for a bear. Are you going to set up a fence?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

The climate where you are in is likely much milder than most places in Central NY, so I'm not sure you can count on wintering reliably in a single deep. And if you're not likely to be there more than every month or so in the summer, what about during the winter? Winter feeding (if needed) is something that is accomplished both when you (and the bees) need to, but also when you can, taking into account the weather which is tricky and variable.

Also, a treatment period in August is not enough mite suppression. You need to able to follow up throughout the fall, as your mite counts warrant. Bees get more mites after Labor Day. If you're not there to deal with them, then your hive could become the neighborhood "mite bomb."

The difference between your set & forget hive and a feral colony is that if the feral colony dies off, it's dead. Thus, it is a self-correcting problem. If beekeepers lose a hive, they just bring another one in, perpetuating the problem.

Think about what your main goal would be. Adding a colony to an area just because there appear to be "unused" forage opportunities overlooks the fact that it's likely there are already are other beekeepers in the area. Central NY is full of beekeepers, both resident and migratory operations. And even there are no other beekeepers, leaving the area to native pollinators might not be a bad thing. 

Nancy


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## Alex Madsen (Aug 26, 2018)

Most of the bee havers in my area dont treat at all for mites. I would be delighted to have neighbors that treated on a 8 week schedule.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. A 3-1/2 hour drive is simply too far away to have bees that you are supposed to be caring for. Life has a funny habit of getting in the way. Please reconsider.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Squarepeg


> following an efb epidemic that most likely resulted from the 'setting and forgetting' of some hives near mine.





> as a victim of others' 'set it and forget it' approach in my opinion there is nothing more irresponsible one can do with bees.


I see you have convinced yourself that your problems are from another bee keeper who is not as good a bee keeper as you are. Not impossible I guess.

If it were deer I would be wondering who moved in the black tongue that pops up every so often in some populations. 

I wonder how the big operations that keep hundreds of hives in one place can report finding three or four hives infected each year and not have it just take over their operations in the time between when they notice it and address it, if they even address it?

Cheers
gww


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

gww said:


> Squarepeg
> 
> I wonder how the big operations that keep hundreds of hives in one place can report finding three or four hives infected each year and not have it just take over their operations in the time between when they notice it and address it, if they even address it?
> 
> ...


well lets evaluate that, according to the bee inspector that inspected my hives, when it was announced that you would not be able to buy antibiotics any more, he said many went out and purchased as much as they could find. Now efb and afb are treated different, no rules in NY against keeping efb hives that I am aware of, but the one commercial beek that I know, when he found some he burned the hive. Afb on the other hand again according to the inspector, if he finds one cell of afb on a load of bees, he is required to check every hive on the load, you think the commercial guy wants to be tied up with his hives for that amount of time? so he makes sure what ever load is going to be inspected doesn't have any symptoms, how does he do that, treat them b/4 being inspected. Now why is efb showing up all of a sudden, heck my buddy has had bees for as long as I have I told him it was going around, he asked what the symptoms were never seen it before, I'll let you decide.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

gww said:


> I see you have convinced yourself that your problems are from another bee keeper who is not as good a bee keeper as you are. Not impossible I guess.


i was careful to use the term 'most likely'. efb has been virtually unheard of around these parts for decades. within the past few years literally hundreds of colonies have been imported into my county and placed into the hands of first time beekeepers. 

i have confirmed that quite a few of these were placed within flying distance of my colonies and collapsed with the cause of collapse not determined and with no effort on the part of the beginning beekeepers to prevent robbing or remove the dead out equipment.

i have also laid out what i have determined to be weaknesses in my management and skill set that contributed to the extent of damage done, and what i plan to do going forward as a result of this.

i know you think it's bad form to blame others for our troubles gww, and to some degree i am with you on that. but not recognizing how irresponsibility and neglect can impact neighboring colonies doesn't cut it either. i am more concerned over how this mass importation of commercially bred bees and their diseases is impacting our thriving feral wild-type population than the losses i have sustained.





gww said:


> I wonder how the big operations that keep hundreds of hives in one place can report finding three or four hives infected each year and not have it just take over their operations in the time between when they notice it and address it, if they even address it?


many of those operations have been (and probably still do despite the ban on it) using twice yearly prophylactic antibiotic treatments to suppress the outbreak of efb and afb. now that many of them are finding it more profitable to shake out packages after almond pollination, and once those bees no longer are getting the prophylaxis, it's not surprising that we are getting a rise in outbreaks.

my guess is that what we are hearing about is just the tip of the iceberg and that efb is vastly underreported at this time. partly because of the beginners not knowing what they have, and partly because the bigger operations are going to be hush hush about reporting it because it's bad for business.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BeeDuto said:


> What’s the worst that can happen?


This is actually my ultimate goal - set it and forget it.
Hence I originally started pursuing Layen's style beehives and the beekeeping ways.

Like this - set it and forget it:








Yes - people will tell many things for and against.
I will argue "set it and forget it" has its legit place in the ecosystem.
All way around hardy bee is highly desirable for this to work (which kind of what sucked me into this project).
The hardy bee is pretty much a requirement.
Otherwise, I have video documentation of exactly this method of beekeeping - set it and forget it.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think post #s 19 and 20 are pointing to a very possible scenario. I was to an information meeting about the new protocols for legally obtaining and using antibiotics. It was mentioned that due to an AFB outbreak in the area years ago it had become established practice to do a ritual spring and fall treatment with OxyTet. There was a show of hands about how many were using it and I believe it was a majority. Little wonder that no one else there knew anything about EFB

American Foulbrood is a statutory reportable disease in Ontario. EFB is not. I think there is danger of seeing a big increase in EFB showing up.

Something about set it and forget it concept makes me think it encourages irresponsible beekeeper. I feel that elements of the flo hive notion follow the same path.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

crofter said:


> American Foulbrood is a statutory reportable disease in Ontario. EFB is not.


same here frank with statutory teeth for the apiary protection unit to do something about afb but not efb.

if efb has morphed into types that are hypervirulent, hypercontagious, and can keep equipment infected for extended periods of time it may be time, (ulitimately resulting in equipment destruction) then it may be time for the authorities to adopt a similar approach as they have with afb.

i have been communicating with folks at the top of ladder at both the state and federal level here, as well as with some academics and other well know 'authorities' on the subject.

the uptick in efb outbreaks and the increase in virulence has their attention alright, but nothing actionable on the horizon here as far as i can tell.


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## BeeDuto (Apr 19, 2018)

wildbranch2007 said:


> BeeDuto said:
> 
> 
> > It’s a vacation house. No one will be there. I would most likely overwinter in a single deep the way I did at home.
> ...


Delaware County


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## BeeDuto (Apr 19, 2018)

ericweller said:


> The hive will make a nice snack for a bear. Are you going to set up a fence?


Bears are not prevalent in that area. Been going up there my whole life and have never seen one.


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## BeeDuto (Apr 19, 2018)

trottet1 said:


> >I also may disagree with regard to the spreading of mites since I wouldn’t be treating till mid summer anyway. Moot point no?
> 
> No not moot. In fact, this logic supports squarepeg's argument. You will be treating in late August. But if your hive swarms before then, you will be sending mite bombs up to the trees where they will be safe from your August treatments. I'm glad you are not my neighbor or anywhere near me.
> 
> ...


Forgive me for my naïveness but I just assumed I wouldn’t be effecting anyone else given how rural it is there. I my no means want to send mite bombs into the wild. 

Couldn’t i treat them before I bring them there? Or treat them once there?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

just because you don't see hives, don't think you are all by your self. do some research for instance ya think maybe because they have a bee club, that maybe they have bees.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/cate...unty-Beekeepers-Association-1402987823305670/

now I've hunted all my life and never seen a bear, a few seconds on the computer shows.
http://www.watershedpost.com/2016/how-stay-safe-catskills-black-bear-country



> Greene and Delaware counties, especially the area in and around the town of Middletown in Delaware County, are known for a higher density of black bears, according to Choquette.


any other research you need done?


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

>Couldn’t i treat them before I bring them there? Or treat them once there?

You treat before you bring them. Then what? What are your swarm management plans? Once you treat, mites start building up again. Then you don't prevemt swarms, they swarm and so do your mites. You can come up with as many "what ifs" as you want. I think your plan is irresponsible. Besides, what would be the point? You won't get much honey from those steller flows that you predict. You need hives well populated to capitalize on a flow. Yours will be building back up from losing more than half it's population.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

" I was thinking a single deep with a QE, then deep super and med super above that. "

I'm thinking they will get slimed to death before anything else gets them.

Anybody want to start a pool?


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> just because you don't see hives, don't think you are all by your self.


Kind of like mites & bears What about your swarms going on vacation & inhabiting the home? It would be to far for most to manage & it doesn’t read like you really want to either.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Saltybee said:


> "
> 
> Anybody want to start a pool?


that was one of my first thoughts, but I'm butting out, he's not looking to move into one of my counties so I'm good.


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## dddillon (Jun 6, 2017)

I don't get this attack on BeeDuto. 

How is this any different then if a swarm from anywhere came on the property and set up shop? Would they be mite free? Would there be someone to come and treat them for all the varied things that can go wrong?

he would be putting a healthy, treated colony of bees on his brothers place. He wouldn't be out there with his nose in the hive every 3 days, but he didn't give the impression that he was abandoning them, either.

He might just get his brother intrigued enough to take up beekeeping and continue the work on it.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

There is no attack. He or she asked for feedback.
Man or Woman enough to ask and accept the the advice. Does not mean they have to take it. Asking means there was some basic question in their mind to begin with.

My compliments for asking and no apology for answering. The only insult I could have delivered is to have ignored the question and/or coddled.


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

Well, if it sounds easy - it is probably not true. If BD can do it, so can anyone.

But = would you take your cattle and let them roam free? Maybe 150 years ago in the west you could, but the natives would have taken them, or the predators or, or.

Save your time and raise them at home, it is easier to maintain your property close to home than 3.5 hrs away. How greedy can one get?

Good idea, but let it go and do yourself a favor.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

dddillon said:


> I don't get this attack on BeeDuto. How is this any different then if a swarm from anywhere came on the property and set up shop? Would they be mite free? Would there be someone to come and treat them for all the varied things that can go wrong? He wouldn't be out there with his nose in the hive every 3 days, He might just get his brother intrigued enough to take up beekeeping and continue the work on it.


No attack here, but one difference is the probability of unmanaged bees swarming, contaminating, dying, mite bombing, etc. (okay that was more than one), are high. A lot happens when you are gone in one visit every two months or more. When I think about that, there is no way I could stay away from an Outyard ten minutes away from me for that long. I would definitely get your brother involved & any other family members involved who visit the property if you go through with this. In addition, have more equipment, veils & gloves of all sizes, etc., on the property than you think you will need


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## FloridaGardener (Apr 2, 2018)

@BeeDuto Why not reach out to beeks in that area, and offer to supply a hive & colony in exchange for care? Share the harvest? Make some friends to visit when you go up to the vacation house? Go on vacation more often, because you have a reason to go, and friends there, and a place to stay, and it's beautiful? 

Why not bring your best Queen's daughter, so she can influence the drone cloud in that region? Who knows, with your hive sponsorship and mentoring, you could help get more people to shut off TV and get into nature. As the saying goes, More happiness in giving. A lot of positive results could happen if you connect with people.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

dddillon said:


> he would be putting a healthy, treated colony of bees on his brothers place. He wouldn't be out there with his nose in the hive every 3 days, but he didn't give the impression that he was abandoning them, either.


your making assumptions, go look at his profile, he has no bees yet, no experience yet, new beeks can't keep them alive in there back yard.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

FloridaGardener said:


> @BeeDuto Why not reach out to beeks in that area, and offer to supply a hive & colony in exchange for care? Share the harvest? Make some friends to visit when you go up to the vacation house? Go on vacation more often, because you have a reason to go, and friends there, and a place to stay, and it's beautiful?
> 
> Why not bring your best Queen's daughter, so she can influence the drone cloud in that region? Who knows, with your hive sponsorship and mentoring, you could help get more people to shut off TV and get into nature. As the saying goes, More happiness in giving. A lot of positive results could happen if you connect with people.


What a pleasure to read a post containing positive suggestions, rather than this on-going group effort to give this guy's idea a good kicking.
LJ


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## sunkool (May 26, 2016)

little_john said:


> What a pleasure to read a post containing positive suggestions, rather than this on-going group effort to give this guy's idea a good kicking.
> LJ


I agree.
It is also why alot of people will not post in a forum, including myself.

I for one disagree that a set and forget approach is a mite bomb. In fact I find it to be quite the opposite. I have 6 hives (Double Lang deep and 1 medium no excluder) placed in the back of a 70 acre woods. They have been there for 6 years. I have never had better brood producing hives then them. They have NEVER been treated for anything. They have NEVER been fed. I have NEVER taken surplus honey from them. I do take 5 frames of solid brood from each in March and use the frames to make nucs by adding a queen cell (Grafted from these hives). For the rest of the year they are left alone. Never even opened. I also maintain at least 300 nucs within 75 feet of these hives. My 5 cell builders and 30 double deep hives are approximately 800 feet away. 

I have never lost a hive or nuc to mites. 
There are 5 wild bee trees around my yard that I know of. They were there long before I started beekeeping. In fact they are the reason I got into beekeeping. Maybe, just maybe if left alone the bees can beat the mites themselves.



And for someone to say they lost their hives to efb do to someone else is just appalling.


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## Arbol (Apr 28, 2017)

Treatment Free is mite bombing the region around their dirty apiaries big time.tf is a type set it and forget it, no matter what you claim in your defense of being tf, your varorra mites carry efb and can infect other hives, as with other diseases and viruses. Yes, your tf bees are adapted, but they are also dirty mite bombs! Disgusting! Bad Beehvaers!
Do what thou wilt.


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

SunKool,

Is your profile up to date? It says you have been beekeeping for 2 years. Your hives were there for 6 years. Did you take them over or did you set them up?


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## sunkool (May 26, 2016)

trottet1 said:


> SunKool,
> 
> Is your profile up to date? It says you have been beekeeping for 2 years. Your hives were there for 6 years. Did you take them over or did you set them up?


I don't know where you see 2 years. I have been a member here since 2016. I just do not post. 
I set the hives up. They were started with nucs from Indian Summer Honey farm.


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

Under the about you section in your profile it says " # of years in beekeeping. 2. 

I just want to make sure that when someone says they have never lost a hive to mites, that they weren't beekeeping for only a handful of years. It sounds like you have quite a few years under your belt though.


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## sunkool (May 26, 2016)

Arbol said:


> Treatment Free is mite bombing the region around their dirty apiaries big time.tf is a type set it and forget it, no matter what you claim in your defense of being tf, your varorra mites carry efb and can infect other hives, as with other diseases and viruses. Yes, your tf bees are adapted, but they are also dirty mite bombs! Disgusting! Bad Beehvaers!
> Do what thou wilt.


Hence the reason for not posting!
If they do not agree with your way, You are considered a "Dirty Apiary"

Can you show proof that bees cannot learn to defend themselves against the mites like they have other problems for the past few thousand years?
Yet you criticize someone that is trying!


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## sunkool (May 26, 2016)

Fixed. 
Did not know you have to change that. I started in 2014.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I will accept your experience in Spring Hill Florida. Congratulations.

Will you accept the advice given is for NY?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Saltybee said:


> I will accept your experience in Spring Hill Florida. Congratulations.
> 
> Will you accept the advice given is for NY?


"Set It and Forget It" for NY should work just as well (granted locally adapted, hardy bee).

Keep in mind, FL has it worse - there is brood generation around the year pretty much - non-stop.
Meaning, the mite-generation is also non-stop - unless, bees handle the issue.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

GregV said:


> "Set It and Forget It" for NY should work just as well.


I should win the lottery, just does not seem to happen!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is non-English channel of a guy who does exactly that - Set It and Forget it (in the attic of old homestead).
They visit it a couple times year (spring/fall).
Equipment - large horizontal rigs plus a battery of swarm traps.
Bees - whatever local mutts (pretty darn hot bees - to be honest).
Location - compatible to zone 3 USA (plenty of brown bears around - hence the attic).

He kinda treats them and kinda feeds them. 
Kinda, granted he is never there (several hours of drive, one-way).
So, the bees just auto-manage themselves best they can.

Forget the audio, but click about and look at the video and his setup.
There are several, multi-year videos about this ongoing project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvxqk-xqH8U


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Saltybee said:


> I should win the lottery, just does not seem to happen!


OK, I just posted a link to a place much colder than NY.
Set it and forget it - the real-life practical channel. 
The dude a bit crazy, but makes it for a good show and he gets his honey (on a good year, obviously).
On some bad years he lost most of the bees.
On the good years, every darn trap was full of bees AND honey.
If they swarm, they swarm - but the large rigs full of the frames and the traps auto-handle most issues.
Hehe.

All in all - if you don't manage your bees to death, they might be actually better off.
Examples are plenty.


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## sunkool (May 26, 2016)

Saltybee said:


> I will accept your experience in Spring Hill Florida. Congratulations.
> 
> Will you accept the advice given is for NY?


Absolutely not. I think it should be tried everywhere but who am I to tell one how to keep their bees? Much less call them a fool for trying something out of the box.

I am not saying invest your whole crop into the theory. Maybe you will find that it can be done anywhere, maybe not. Without trying you will never know.

Just for the record I have learned alot from some on here. Michael Bush mainly, but also from Michael Palmer, Lauri, and Ethan to name a few. All from different parts of the continent and have found that most that works for them works for me in Florida.

The bees always have and will continue to survive without man. You just might have to let them!


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

"Much less call them a fool for trying something out of the box."

Must have missed "fool" the part. Some very negative views of the plan, some very dim views of the beekeeping style, that is a far cry from calling the person a fool. Little bit of the internet attack flying freely here as well.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Just because someone can claim that examples exist, where some thing has worked out in some special circumstance, does not make it feasible, advisable, likely, responsible, or many other possible adjectives. I suspect claims to support such ideas are fulfilling some other personal need.

I have heard too, that people have jumped or fallen from planes without chutes and survived. Not an idea to be promoted.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Saltybee said:


> Will you accept the advice given is for NY?


:thumbsup:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sunkool said:


> And for someone to say they lost their hives to efb do to someone else is just appalling.


would you feel the same if we were talking about american foulbrood?


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## sunkool (May 26, 2016)

Saltybee said:


> "Much less call them a fool for trying something out of the box."
> 
> Must have missed "fool" the part. Some very negative views of the plan, some very dim views of the beekeeping style, that is a far cry from calling the person a fool. Little bit of the internet attack flying freely here as well.


I was not referring to just this thread.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

sunkool said:


> I have been a member here since 2016. I just do not post.


Your insensitive and callous remarks makes me wish you hadn't started.


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## sunkool (May 26, 2016)

squarepeg said:


> would you feel the same if we were talking about american foulbrood?


I know I would not blame another beekeeper not knot knowing where it came from!


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## sunkool (May 26, 2016)

JWPalmer said:


> Your insensitive and callous remarks makes me wish you hadn't started.


Sorry if I hurt your feelings! I do not see where I said anything of the sorts.


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## sunkool (May 26, 2016)

JWPalmer said:


> Your insensitive and callous remarks makes me wish you hadn't started.


Sorry if I hurt your feelings! I do not see where I said anything of the sorts.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Not my feelings, it was your comment about Squarepeg that was callous. Where were you while he was fighting a battle with efb that was obviously imported to his yard from a neighboring apiary run amok? You think bacteria just spontaneously generate? Years of hard work were destroyed by the carelessness of someone who apparently couldnt be bothered with taking care of their own livestock, which is what bees are in a managed apiary.

Edit, I'll put it another way. Suppose YOU contracted an STD. Do you think your spouse would belive that it "just happened", or would they correctly assume that it is because you had "close" contact with an infected person? SP's bees had contact with someone else's infected bees. The only thing appalling is that you do not seem to understand how EFB is spread. Here's a hint, it is not airborne.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

<p>
jw Maybe I missed it but I did not see where squares neibors hives were tested, just that twelve hives had died over three years. Even if the last ones were tested, who knows where it came from? It is a logical thing to think about being possible or maybe even logical but has not been proven by what I have seen that the cause came from there. I see the arguement that there is risk in all the movement of bees that is higher then only dealing with what shows up naturally. Still, diesease does show up and dissapear in other wild animals that are not transported all over the world like bees are. Rabies are not airborn. I do see the fear of putting a million hives in one place and then after, sending them all over the country. I also see that a person that wants bees is going to buy them from those guys and those guys always sell out and if that does not change then how can somebody grip if somebody else takes advantage of the bees for sell? You going to give him yours so he does not have to buy them from transport bees. You might have enough bees to do that if you turn into the transport bee guy. If you turn into the transport guy, you might lose more swarms in one year then the guy who lost 12 hives over four years. It may have came from the other guys bees, maybe, but I did not see proof given, just resonable suggestion. Just saying. Cheers gww</p>
<p>
Ps The reason there are no spaces in my post right now is cause my computer has a virus like bees get cause I put it on line with the rest of you.<img alt="" height="16" src="https://www.beesource.com/forums/clientscript/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/images/smilies/smile.gif" title="" width="23" /></p>


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Too funny Glenn. But yeah, a computer that never goes on the internet can't catch a virus either.

I don't think SP knows for sure where the EFB originated, and I think it would be hard to prove which specific hive or apiary was the first for that region. But it had to be from imported infected hives and there is a good case to be made for it coming from commercial bees regularly given OTC to control (mask) the symptoms of EFB so that the hives appear to be healthy. So if someone suddenly had a bunch of new hives from outside sources, it stands to reason that any new pathogens to the area came with them. Not saying that is a problem in and of itself, but combining it with lax beekeeping i.e., set and forget, can take a managable situation and turn it into an epidemic.

Hope all is well with you and your bees.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jw
My bees are doing ok I think but contrary to what I thought, a wet year is not going to produce a banner honey year.
Cheers
gww


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sunkool said:


> I know I would not blame another beekeeper not knot knowing where it came from!


i've recognized and what is reflected in my comments is there is no way to trace the source of the efb that resulted in the death and destruction of 2/3rds of my inventory of bees and equipment.

the current count is 4 'new' beekeepers having had a total of 17 imported colonies collapse after not being mangaged properly and not being prevented from getting robbed out by other bees.

i have been careful to say that these collapses represent the 'most likely' source for the efb and have not assigned blame to any one of those beekeepers in particular.

in my post above that you have taken exception to, it is the practice of irresponsible beekeeping that i am blaming for what likely could have been a preventable and terribly costly experience. 

this thread is about 'setting and forgetting' and i happen to be in the camp which thinks that amounts to being irresponsible. anyone who has followed my posts for awhile will know that i have expressed this concern for years, long before my encounter with efb.

i mentioned american foulbrood because in my jurisdiction just like in most jurisdictions the potential impact a beekeeper can have over neighboring bees is so great that the law provides for the seizure and destruction of one's personal property should afb be found.

now that efb has morphed into an entity that may also infect the equipment for months and years resulting in the need for destruction, it may be time to update the laws to reflect that as well.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

JWPalmer said:


> Your insensitive and callous remarks makes me wish you hadn't started.


Bit harsh I think. You do not judge a hive as too hot upon one check. Reminds me of the old "Bond " debates. 
Time will tell if your read is correct.


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## sunkool (May 26, 2016)

JWPalmer said:


> Not my feelings, it was your comment about Squarepeg that was callous. Where were you while he was fighting a battle with efb that was obviously imported to his yard from a neighboring apiary run amok? You think bacteria just spontaneously generate? Years of hard work were destroyed by the carelessness of someone who apparently couldnt be bothered with taking care of their own livestock, which is what bees are in a managed apiary.
> 
> Edit, I'll put it another way. Suppose YOU contracted an STD. Do you think your spouse would belive that it "just happened", or would they correctly assume that it is because you had "close" contact with an infected person? SP's bees had contact with someone else's infected bees. The only thing appalling is that you do not seem to understand how EFB is spread. Here's a hint, it is not airborne.


Efb bacteria, just like Afb spores can remain dormant in a hive for years. Who is to say one of his hives did not have the bacteria from the get go? 
But then again, you assume I know nothing!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sunkool said:


> Efb bacteria, just like Afb spores can remain dormant in a hive for years.


can you provide a scientific study that has shown this?

i've been searching like crazy for one and have come up short so far. 

in personal communication with a few of our country's leading bee scientists about it they say they aren't sure and their estimates on how long efb remains viable on equipment vary quite a bit.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Question to squarepeg:

Wouldn't you agree that the ultimate "set-it-and-forget-it" bees are the feral ones?
The ones you are so fortunate to have around you?
As I see it, those forgotten, left alone bees are actually of a huge benefit.

What about Fusion_Power - deliberately releasing swarms into the vicinity?
Is it not setting up the ultimate "set-it-and-forget-it" population?
I think this is *exactly *what it is.

I can only dream of a strong, local feral bee population - the ultimate "set-it-and-forget-bee" population.
Got none of these in any significance.
Wish I had.

To be clear - setting and forgetting an *imported bee colony* is likely to fail and result in time/resource waste/possible parasite spread.
It is reasonable to assume that OP did not even think of this prospective, but hey - let me bring this up.

IF properly done, what is wrong with the "setting and forgetting"? 
Nothing really.

PS: 
The real, massive issues are - 1)cross-continent bee sales and 2)cross-continent migratory beekeeping.
These are the real negative issues to talk about. 
All else is much less significant.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

sunkool said:


> I have 6 hives (Double Lang deep and 1 medium no excluder) placed in the back of a 70 acre woods. They have been there for 6 years. I have never had better brood producing hives then them. They have NEVER been treated for anything. They have NEVER been fed. I have NEVER taken surplus honey from them. I do take 5 frames of solid brood from each in March and use the frames to make nucs by adding a queen cell (Grafted from these hives). For the rest of the year they are left alone. Never even opened.


Unfortunately, the tone of a message board post is inaudible, so we all seem to tend to read the worst into a stranger's intentions. With that said, I assure you that I do not intend to challenge your statement above, but rather only discuss a possibility of what is happening in the back of that 70 acre field because it interests me greatly and I have a lot of beekeeping friends that share similar experiences with me. I hope you will believe me regarding my intentions, but that will be up to you.

I do not doubt your account of these hives. Again, I know many whom I trust and call friends with similar experiences. I do have a competing theory that may or may not be occurring. Going into a hive once a year (in your case, March to harvest frames) is unlikely to give you any real feedback of mite tolerance or survival at all _for any distinct colony_ that has established in those boxes. Your description is that these 6 hives are surrounded by both feral bees and managed stock. Your climate (which is similar to mine) can have swarming from February to October. You could have a typical mite collapse cycle (18 to 24 months) occur routinely, leaving a perfect swarm trap for the next feral or managed colony to move in for the first swarm in Spring -- or whenever. 

Personally, I think this model is successful beekeeping. It is not the way I do it. I will refrain comment about mite breeding because that has been covered here. But I do not think a beekeeper can claim to have no lost hives due to mites, while at the same time stating that they only enter their hives only once a year. You could be right. But I don't see how you can be certain of the statement.


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## oliver.karp (Apr 7, 2014)

My opinion is to “Set it- Don’t forget it.” I have learned a lot over the past seven years, both from experience and from asking questions of other beekeepers and reading posts on this forum. Acknowledge that I have seven intense years of study under my belt—not 20 or 30 so there is a lot left to learn. 

It is definitely possible to have hives that thrive without routine interaction between the hive and the beekeeper. However, it takes at least several seasons to determine how to manage hives in any locality. To understand your locality it takes a few significant losses and developing approaches that can be gleaned from websites and mentors, like a commercial guy or Randy Oliver’s scientific beekeeping. Take a facts based approach to mite control. I have learned how to keep bees in places that I only occasionally visit because I am a Soldier and am often not home for extended periods. I also believe that hives less intensively managed tend to do better—if they get treatments for mites at the right times of year and with the right treatments. My hives that I have failed to treat on schedule, based on facts regarding mite counts, in my locality have all failed and I ensure that I can inspect my colonies at certain key points in the year or arrange for others to do so. Hives that don’t get split, managed for swarms, at the right time of year do their own thing and that may not be good for the local bee population.

Key Points:

1. Take the time to understand the local conditions where you plan to place your bees. That involves routine inspections and mite counts at reasonable intervals. Maybe not achievable for a 3.5hr drive. 
2. Have a partner that can beekeep on your behalf when you can’t make the trip. Develop a network. 
3. If this is no longer sustainable then cease your operation in that area—for the sake of other beekeepers and to reduce the transmission of mites and unaddressed disease. 

Observations on the posts in this forum
1. Negativity, blaming, shaming people for their posts or naiveté will only make new beekeepers less willing to come to experienced folks for virtual mentorship.
2. There is probably a decent amount of commercial value to the interest in beekeeping that generates all these new beekeepers. More people to sell bees to drives up the cost of packages, queens. The good feelings that people associate with bees and beekeepers makes bee vomit (aka honey) much more valuable than any other yellow sugar syrup at your local farmers markets.
3. Any beekeeper who claims to have never failed to prevent swarming, created a mite bomb due to a mistake or neglect, or moved a hive into an area with another more experienced beekeeper is probably fooling themselves. 

So let’s be nice here on this forum. 

Bottom Line: Don’t do the remote beekeeping thing without putting in the time to develop a strategy that is likely to work. You can set it—but don’t forget it. 

Thanks to all the folks on the forum that have helped me over the years- wittingly or unwittingly

Ollie


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## RTBBEE (Dec 30, 2015)

sunkool said:


> Hence the reason for not posting!
> If they do not agree with your way, You are considered a "Dirty Apiary"
> 
> Can you show proof that bees cannot learn to defend themselves against the mites like they have other problems for the past few thousand years?
> Yet you criticize someone that is trying!


 You see if you do not post frequently It is trottet1 Opinion that you are a useless non contributor.


trottet1 said:


> And yet you posted this garbage. 3 total posts in 4 years and this is one of them. I've learned a lot from many of the "wipes" here and have taken nothing away from your contributions, or lack there of.
> 
> Thanks for nothing.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

GregV said:


> Question to squarepeg:


answer is 'sort of' greg.

the difference is that the wild-type feral colonies by their nature prefer to put a mile or so distance between themselves when they swarm.

having as many as sunkool has at one location would never occur in nature, so assuming the bees should be able to cope with that 'naturally' may or may not pan out.

in addition to the radically lower colony density the ferals enjoy, we don't really understand all there is to know about how much healthier a tree cavity might be than our man-made hives, or to what degree never being disturbed might confer some kind of advantage.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

What is funny is, I have offered my brother in law and my cousen a hive. They both live in the country and I told them, just put a little space on the hives in the spring and if they make anything above a certain number of boxes, steal it and just crush and strain. If the bees die, you just won't get anything. I said it would be about free to do. I have traps set at both of thier houses.
They both turned me down I think due to bee intimidation and having jobs and it still being easier just to get honey from me or the store. I would have gave them the stuff and not felt bad about it.
Cheers
gww


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## sunkool (May 26, 2016)

squarepeg said:


> can you provide a scientific study that has shown this?
> 
> i've been searching like crazy for one and have come up short so far.
> 
> in personal communication with a few of our country's leading bee scientists about it they say they aren't sure and their estimates on how long efb remains viable on equipment vary quite a bit.



Scientific study? None that I know of.

"Bee Brood diseases are caused by fungi, bacteria and viruses and can affect both sealed and unsealed brood. In their dormant form brood diseases can exist in virtually every beehive, or are just waiting outside."


https://beekeepers.amazingbees.com.au/bee-brood-diseases.html


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## sunkool (May 26, 2016)

oliver.karp said:


> My opinion is to “Set it- Don’t forget it.” I have learned a lot over the past seven years, both from experience and from asking questions of other beekeepers and reading posts on this forum. Acknowledge that I have seven intense years of study under my belt—not 20 or 30 so there is a lot left to learn.
> 
> It is definitely possible to have hives that thrive without routine interaction between the hive and the beekeeper. However, it takes at least several seasons to determine how to manage hives in any locality. To understand your locality it takes a few significant losses and developing approaches that can be gleaned from websites and mentors, like a commercial guy or Randy Oliver’s scientific beekeeping. Take a facts based approach to mite control. I have learned how to keep bees in places that I only occasionally visit because I am a Soldier and am often not home for extended periods. I also believe that hives less intensively managed tend to do better—if they get treatments for mites at the right times of year and with the right treatments. My hives that I have failed to treat on schedule, based on facts regarding mite counts, in my locality have all failed and I ensure that I can inspect my colonies at certain key points in the year or arrange for others to do so. Hives that don’t get split, managed for swarms, at the right time of year do their own thing and that may not be good for the local bee population.


I never said I do not check on the hives. In fact I watch the entrances to make sure they are bringing in pollen every week. I highly doubt that I had a hive die and swarm move in in a weeks time. Not saying it cant happen but doubtful.


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## sunkool (May 26, 2016)

I also never said I thought it was a good idea for the op to chance it being a long distance from home. I was stating what I have experienced with a more or less set and forget approach. 

I will continue to read the forum and learn from some, but I have decided I will no longer post any of my experiences here.


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

RTBBEE said:


> You see if you do not post frequently It is trottet1 Opinion that you are a useless non contributor.


Putting words in my mouth now?

It's pretty low of you to reference and post 1 quote from me that took place in a totally different thread. I mean really low. 

That quote was a response to your comment (uncalled for in my opinion) from another thread that you failed to post. 

RT is refering to a thread called "how much honey" 

I had no problem with this convorsation there as it was your own thread that you derailed. I however, will not play along or feed the troll here out of respect to the op. As you say, good day Sir!


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

My bees are currently in our mid-summer dearth and they are pissy. Hey, have you guys eaten today?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sunkool said:


> In fact I watch the entrances to make sure they are bringing in pollen every week.


thank you for clarifying that you had no scientific basis for your statement that 'efb bacteria, just like afb spores can remain dormant in hive for years'. in my opinion it's important to know what we know as well as know what we don't know.

it is my sincere hope that neither you nor anybody else contributing here ever has an efb epidemic sweep through their yards like happened with me.

having to destroy 300+ colonies and equipment would be much worse than dozen or so i had to.

i am familiar with spring hill and have family living there. my understanding is that there are many large commercial migratory concerns operating out of florida and a healthy package bee industry as well. you may as well consider yourself vulnerable. 

regular inspections and being vigilant for robbing by all concerned won't completely eliminate the risk of contamination from neighboring colonies, but the extent of damage done might be limited if problems are adequately contained in a timely manner.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

sp: I had not read about your EFB outbreak. I am very sorry. I have followed your journey and support your efforts. I know that was a major blow to you.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks for that '12.

the biggest blow was losing treatment free colonies having 6 - 7 winters under their belt. i'll take mites all day long, but this highly virulent and very contagious form of efb was no contest for most my colonies. we'll see how the remainder fares going forward.

even more of a concern to me is the impact these 'most likely' imported pathogens are having our wild-type feral survivors in the nearby woods.

i'll probably ease up a bit on my swarm prevention going forward and allow a few more 'escapees' to bolster the ferals in my little corner of the county.


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## sunkool (May 26, 2016)

squarepeg said:


> thank you for clarifying that you had no scientific basis for your statement that 'efb bacteria, just like afb spores can remain dormant in hive for years'. in my opinion it's important to know what we know as well as know what we don't know.


The way I read that, you are saying is that if the article I provided is not scientific, then it has no merit? If that is the case then 90% of what is on this forum and what has been read in other sources, outside of a lab dose not either. 
Forgive me If I am wrong, but that is the way I read it.

I do feel for you as well as others that have lost hives to Afb and or Efb, but you yourself said you have no idea where it came from.

Good luck in the future.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

And from the very same article that sunkool quoted:

"Vigilance is important with all honeybee diseases. Check all colonies regularly for health and suspect any colonies that are not thriving where there is no already known reason. *Colonies that die out should be examined thoroughly and sealed to prevent robbing and spread of any disease present."*

Hmmm.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sunkool said:


> The way I read that, you are saying is that if the article I provided is not scientific, then it has no merit? If that is the case then 90% of what is on this forum and what has been read in other sources, outside of a lab dose not either.
> Forgive me If I am wrong, but that is the way I read it.


pretty much. i wouldn't say 'no merit', but i try to be careful not to make statements of fact without much to substantiate them on. mostly what i have posted on this forum is from my actual experience.




sunkool said:


> I do feel for you as well as others that have lost hives to Afb and or Efb, but you yourself said you have no idea where it came from.


no. i said i have a very good idea where it came from but have no way to prove it. 




sunkool said:


> Good luck in the future.


many thanks for that sunkool, and sincerely to you as well.


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## Apis Natural (Aug 31, 2017)

edit


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

probably 'nuff said in this thread.


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