# Overwintering singles (when and where to add the second brood box)



## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

I've wintered 2 hives as singles. One has ocupied the box by 90%. The night temps are around freezing, day temps permit pollen gathering(10-15C)
Aren't there any rules on adding the second brood box, depending on temperatures, above or bellow the existing one?

Adding one above(supering) would lead to temperature dispersion in the above space.

How do you do it?

Thanks,
Cristian


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

I add a second box when the first one is about 80% occupied.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

OK I understand that adding it above or bellow makes no difference and that you add it when 80% full but from what I've read on *Walt Wright's "Nectar management"* adding the huge space above the brood nest leads to at least *2 weeks stagnation*(queen stops laying). That's why he recommended checkerboarding the super.(super or second box same thing to me)
So if Walt Wright is right then we are wrong adding the second box above the brood nest especially this critical time of the year.

What do you think?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Hi Cristian,

You'll find that the bees are only heating the cluster rather than the whole hive.

For example a hive that is wintered with two brood boxes, the cluster will be heated up to 35C if they are raising brood. But comb only inches away may be only slightly warmer than the temperatures outside the hive. The boxes are only acting as a buffer to slow down the speed of temperature changes inside the hive.


I also winter with one brood box and add a new brood box by "Opening the Sides of the Broodnest"

Here's links to more information:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...-the-Broodnest

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...warm-managment

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...-for-Beginners


"Opening the Sides" is specifically for beekeepers who don't have spare drawn comb.

It is all about triggering wax production and then maintaining wax production into the main flow.


*Steps:*

*1. Several weeks before swarm season, move each outside frame up into a new box and alternate them with new frames, directly above the Broodnest.

2. Insert a new frame on each outside edge of the Broodnest. (So that a Brood frame is only on one side of the new frame.)*

*3. Check them in 2-3 weeks and repeat if comb in the frames has been mostly drawn.*


Important: The new frames only have a strip of foundation as a comb guide. They must not be a full sheet of foundation.


*When to start:

1. The weather forecast for the next week has a few days with Daily Maximums getting to 15C/59F

2. Drone brood is being raised.

3. Lots of young bees taking orientation flights in the afternoons. (Think - wax makers!)*

*4. At least 4 weeks before swarm season.*


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

Uau... thanks for the very usefull and detailed information 
A similar technique is used on dadant deep hives in our country except for moving the side frames up. Langs are not that familiar to our people but I like it's maintainability that's why I wanted to start with this hive.
So, I will keep them crowded for a while and add the second box probably on the begining of March, if the weather permits. I also want to use foundationless/wired frames. I hope it works.

Bye


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

cN,
Don't think I said that the queen stops laying, but there is a delay in broodnest expansion for a couple reasons:
Work goes on around the clock. They only do constructive work within the warmed cluster interior. In the early season, that is the compact cluster of the cool overnight temps. Further, the insulating band of bees at the ouside of the cluster is thickest at the top to contain or cap the heat rise from the cluster. The result of these considerations is that the population must increase enough for the cluster insulating band to enclose some comb in the next higher box before any work starts there. Therefore, the delay length is dependent on population increase.

Almost all colonies will ignore foundation added above their functional comb, and some will ignore drawn comb added above. They seem to see the top of their honey as the top of their residence cavity. (That would be true in the wild nest on continuous comb where they work to the top.) Have seen cases where no honey was opened in a full medium of capped honey that was at the top. The steps to swarm commit were all accomplished in the deep below.

Walt


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

Sorry for missinterpreting and thanks for clearifying things.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Anyone who thinks space doesn't matter apparently hasn't spent any time in a small cold building and a large cold building...


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## VitaminBee (Aug 17, 2013)

MattDavey said:


> Important: The new frames only have a strip of foundation as a comb guide. They must not be a full sheet of foundation.


Great info, Matt. Why is it that it must be foundationless? This is very curious to me.



MattDavey said:


> *When to start:
> 
> 1. The weather forecast for the next week has a few days with Daily Maximums getting to 15C/59F
> 
> ...


Is the timing for this different for checker boarding? I'm trying to figure out if I should be doing that right now. Today it will be 72, but next week several days of below freezing temps. Oy.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Anyone who thinks space doesn't matter apparently hasn't spent any time in a small cold building and a large cold building...



Of course the amount of space definitely does matter. The extra space affects the "Rate of Change" of Temperatures in the hive. So it takes longer to heat a larger space.

There's many factors involved which makes it complicated. Including the size of the cluster as compared to the size of the hive, the position of the cluster (as heat rises), and the heat loss through the walls.

If the cluster mostly fills the box, they can also heat the box, allowing them to break cluster.


But if the hive is running out of room, the beekeeper needs to add space. As heat rises, it encourages the bees to move the broodnest up to where it is warmer in the top of the hive.

Direct sunlight and the colour of the hive also affects these dynamics.

I just found this website which shows thermal imaging of different hive setups showing the heat from the clusters and the effect of sunlight and the colour of the hive bodies:

http://www.opticsinfobase.org/oe/fulltext.cfm?uri=oe-19-1-399



VitaminBee: I see you found the current thread about When to Open the Sides of the Broodnest.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

I've added the second box for about a month now. It has 4 drawn frames in the middle and foundation for the rest. I still think it's not yet a good timing to open the sides of the brood nest.
I have 8 frames full of capped brood wich is about to hatch these days. The nights are still pretty cold: 3-4 Celsius. The bees from the upper chamber migrate bellow during the night. Maybe after this batch of brood hatches we'll have enough bees to permit this manipulation. I think the apples will bloom in about 2 weeks at most. The day temps are OK but the nights are still too cold. Our swarming season starts when the black locust blooms: about the begining of May until late June but this year is definetely different as we have an explosion of brood due to the very mild winter. 

What do you think?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

If you have 8 frames of mostly capped brood, then in the next two weeks you will have nurse bees covering about 16 frames!
So you can definitely Open the Sides within the next week

What is in the 4 drawn frames in the second deep? Is there some capped honey and brood?
If they are empty then you may be able to wait a little longer (maybe 2 weeks), but if they are mostly being used I would do it sooner than later.

They may start drawing out the foundation in your current configuration because of the 4 drawn frames in that box, but it will help to move a couple of drawn frames up from the bottom as well.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

MattDavey said:


> What is in the 4 drawn frames in the second deep? Is there some capped honey and brood?


Two of them contain nectar and pollen(no capped honey or brood), so they are using them for stores now. Opening the sides now would mean moving 2 frames of brood up that's why I hesitated to do that yesterday.
I would like to make a powerfull breeder hive out of this one. Let's see if I can keep it from swarming 
This is challenging and fun. I can't wait to see how many bees will be in the hive after hatching. I also plan to do another jar sampling later on.

Thanks for reply.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

cristianNiculae said:


> OK I understand that adding it above or bellow makes no difference and that you add it when 80% full but from what I've read on *Walt Wright's "Nectar management"* adding the huge space above the brood nest leads to at least *2 weeks stagnation*(queen stops laying). That's why he recommended checkerboarding the super.(super or second box same thing to me)
> So if Walt Wright is right then we are wrong adding the second box above the brood nest especially this critical time of the year.
> 
> What do you think?


cristian,
I would not recommend supering just yet unless you cannot monitor your bees closely. I would wait. They only appear full in the day time. They cluster at night. If you insist on adding another box, please do not checkerboard. Temps are not high enough yet and the volume of bees not large enough. You do not have premium swarming conditions. In my experience you could leave them till they beard slightly overnight or until you are sure they are full. Adding the second box and checkerboarding will result in brood chilling and more consumption of feed. I would crowd them but pay close attention.
This is my opinion.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

So all the frames in the bottom box have brood?

You can move two brood frames up, but put them in the middle and effectively checkerboard the 4 drawn frames. With empty frames on the outside edges, like this:

EDEDBBDEDE
EBBBBBBBBE

E-Empty
D-Drawn
B-Brood


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

I've added the second box for about a month. No problem in that. No chilled brood.
I don't want to checkerboard cause I don't have the resources to do it. I just want to open the sides of the brood nest.
It is also my opinion that it's not the right timing yet.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

I think those 9 weeks before the apple are a bit too much for my area. I live near the mountains and have cold nights and drafts. Anyway I think I can make good decisions looking in the hive and with the help of you guys.

Blooms so far: 

gone
---
hazel nuts
pussy willow


currently
---
salix babylonica,
prunus cerasifera,
prunus spinosa
dandelions

soon to come
---
cherry trees
prunus domestica
apples

Thanks


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Based on what you have said, I would leave it no more than 2 weeks for you to start Opening the Sides. The above configuration I've just posted is still Opening the Sides. Alternating/Checkboarding drawn frames with empty frames.

Once those 8 frames of capped brood have emerged they will have plenty of wax makers and a large enough cluster to keep them warm enough in the 2 boxes.

You want them making wax before the Apple trees blossom.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

Sorry for not having seen your reply Matt.



MattDavey said:


> So all the frames in the bottom box have brood?
> 
> You can move two brood frames up, but put them in the middle and effectively checkerboard the 4 drawn frames. With empty frames on the outside edges, like this:
> 
> ...


All except 2 on the sides wich are filled with nectar and pollen.

Current configuration:

FFFFDHDFFFF
HBBBBBBBBH

I understand that opening the sides means moving up #2 and #9 and putting F or E instead.

In my case that would mean:

FFFDBBHDFFF
HEBBBBBBEH

Corect?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

That will work as well. 

You don't have to have the frames of honey on the outside. Just have brood on one side of the new frame. As long as the frames you moved up are directly above the Broodnest.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

I just moved the outside honey frames above not the brood.

...and now have smt like:

FFHFHFHF
BFBBBBFB

I used foundation as that was available. I will use empty frames in the future, just that I need to build them first.
I talked to other beekepers around and we are 1 month ahead of regular schedule this year. Let's hope it's not gonna be a dry year. In my country dadant deeps are the most used system. I wonder if this is not the main cause of swarmig(crowded as being the cause) issues having arround the carpathian race of bees.
I think we'll have apple bloom during the next week.

In God we trust!

Cristian


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Don't worry about it now, but the idea is not to isolate frames of brood from the rest of the Broodnest. Rather to keep it in a spherical shape if possible.

This is because it can cause chilled brood, which can lead to chalk brood. I believe it can also cause emergency queens cells to be built if there are not enough bees to cover all the frames with the now larger area to heat. So it can cause some nurse bees to not get enough queen phermone, triggering an emergency response. This is not likely though.

If you can, just check those two outside frames next weekend to check if they have started building comb and also look for any queen cells.

Thanks for letting us know.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

I will check on Tuesday or so.
All the brood is in the lower chamber. The temperatures are higher now and the fruit trees and dandelions are starting to bloom. I'll try to make some pics also.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have a question that is related. I have always added more space wihen the top super is 80% full. I also use the expanding methods or checkerboarding. What I want to know is if anyone has any ratio of space they add?

I know that at most I only add about double the space at the most. And that woudl be while a colony is small. Here is my worst case situation. Starting a queen on two frames in a queen castle. once mated she is moved to a 5 frame nuc. this is actually adding 150% additional space. Once filled I add a medium 5 frame box above this. an increase of space of about 66%. Once this is full they are moved to 10 frame boxes a deep and a medium. This amounts to a 50% space increase. Total volume of added space increases each time I add room up to this point but the ratio is falling do the hive being larger and larger. To help make this clearer. First expansion is 3 frames. second is 5 frames third is 10 frames. From this point on I have always just added 10 more frames but have always wondered about the ratio. If a 10 frame hive can handle having 10 more fraems added. can a 20 frame hive stand having 20 new frames added?

In my case I am looking at one colony that has 60 frames as of right now and I have not yet seen swarm cells even. I am trying to get as many new foundationless frames drawn as possible. So could I be added 20 or even 30 new frames to this hive at a time? I have several other hives that are up to 40 fraems so far that I am considering the same issue over.

What I have been looking at is to go all the way back down to the bottom brood chamber and continually add a full expansion. So if when adding a second box I moved up the honey frames and placed either drawn comb or an empty frame between them in the second box. I then move these frames outward as they are drawn always putting new empty frames between drawn ones. During this time the bees expand and bring the brood nest up on their own. This often leaves drawn fraems that are not being used for brood in the lowest box. Why not start checkerboarding this lowest box removing as many as 5 frames and moving them up doing a full checkerboard of a new box with them? To carry it even further why not checkerboard every box on the hive with the exception of brood?

I see the limit woudl be some maximum number of fraems that a colony could even draw in one season. but does anyone have any idea where that number might be? Some of my hives are 3 times the size they started out as in January. That is 40 frames drawn pre swarm period.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I assume you're talking mediums Daniel?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

JRG, Actually a mix. I typically start a hive as a deep and a medium. that is what I consider a hive. anything less is building up to be a hive. Usually anything more than that would be mediums. The 60 frame hive I have right now actually ended up being 2 deeps and 4 mediums. Long story.

I do not see the deep or medium as much of the factor. It is getting bees to even start frames. I do believe I see a difference when it comes to finishing them though. I understand that the frames are different sizes but I do not see that plays much of a factor in what ti takes to get bees to draw them. As an example if I attempted to expand this 6 box tall hive by 50%. does it really matter if I add two deeps or three mediums? I see some reasons for differences but not enough to take up in this conversation.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I haven't tried adding that many frames at once. But adding them close to the Broodnest will always help. 

I had 42 deep frames drawn by one hive, but they had 2 queens until around summer solstice. A local beekeeper said it was one of the worst years we've had in 30 years! So I would hate to see a very good year


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

You feeding Daniel or is this au natural frame production? I would say with feed, pile them on, and I agree with you on the starting and finishing aspect. They'll finish meds more consistently just because of the smaller festooning size required. It just depends on the flow provided, but there's vids of Tim Ives piling 2-3 or more mediums on at a time.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> You feeding Daniel or is this au natural frame production? I would say with feed, pile them on, and I agree with you on the starting and finishing aspect. They'll finish meds more consistently just because of the smaller festooning size required. It just depends on the flow provided, but there's vids of Tim Ives piling 2-3 or more mediums on at a time.


More like 5-7 mediums at one time, pre drone emerging. When them supers go on there is a average of 18 frames of brood in them 3 deep systems. 21 days later that's another 36 frames of bees. 3.6 Hive bodies or 5-6 supers. 
All brand new foundation doesn't help. Need some drawn to entice hoarding. Checker boarding supers works the best, placing New super at bottom then drawn,N,D,N,D,D. 

Checker boarding frames is to tedious and time consuming.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I feed sugar water any time a colony is building up it's basic hive. that woudl be the deep and medium. I also feed sugar water post honey production to build the colonies winter supply back up. I am not as certain that is necessary as I originally did. I will give pollen patties if I find a colony completely without pollen I think I may have used maybe 20 lbs of pollen patties in a two year period with a total of 28 hives. It is my opinion that bees can pretty much find pollen here any time they want it.

I feed in the spring to stimulate brood production. but it is hardly anywhere near all the food they have. Late summer and fall is when they get fed heavily.

Thanks for the adding boxes info. If I can keep these hives goign through swarm period I see the need to pack on the boxes. I just didn't know if that discourages the bees.

We got quick inspections done yesterday.we will start grafting today. So far so good on swarm prevention but I do not expect that to last. Brood production has fallen off. I am not certain if that is due to the cold snap or they are making the turn toward swarming. I still have two hives and two nucs that never got up to speed. The rest are at low to high production strength and still have post swarm period brood production to go.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

I couldn't wait till next week and opened the hive today. The result really blasted my worries appart.

Foundation build in less the 48 hours:








Bottom box:








Upper box:








That encouraged me to add the second box to the other hive also wich was about 80% established in the bottom one. By breaking the sides you really have fast drawn frames just that is more work wich in my case is very little work since I have only 2 hives. Now I'm more confident that I will have resources for the comming nucleus colonies and trust that I will have a strong starter/finisher hive.

Thanks.

I will keep posting about the progress. The apple and plum tree has just started to bloom.


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## VitaminBee (Aug 17, 2013)

Awesome, cristian! Beautiful mountains in the background too!


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)




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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

Regarding adding new space I've heard Michael Palmer said sm. like doubling the amount of space, as nectar has much more water than honey and the bees need that big space where to store it in the first place. This way you prevent backfilling the brood nest.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Looking good!

They should draw out the remaining frames of foundation in their current configuration. They now have plenty of space to expand into.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Tim Ives said:


> Checker boarding frames is to tedious and time consuming.


I agree it is a real time eater. I also tend to consider it part of what it takes to build up a colony. Last year I considered building up a colony just getting them to a deep and a medium. Then I saw a video, may have been you, piling on supers in the spring. I originally had the idea that each hive would have a deep and three mediums. now I consider that just the start.

I do think my idea of giving them space once they reach that deep and medium size is a bit short. I have been giving them one super at a time and checker boarding it.

One problem I have is that I am expanding. As long as I am doing that every hives is used to get new frames drawn. I never really let a hive have what it has worked on.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Tim Ives said:


> More like 5-7 mediums at one time, pre drone emerging. When them supers go on there is a average of 18 frames of brood in them 3 deep systems. 21 days later that's another 36 frames of bees. 3.6 Hive bodies or 5-6 supers.
> All brand new foundation doesn't help. Need some drawn to entice hoarding. Checker boarding supers works the best, placing New super at bottom then drawn,N,D,N,D,D.
> 
> Checker boarding frames is to tedious and time consuming.


So let's expand this concept out a bit:

18 frames of capped brood gives 36 deep frames of bees in a couple of weeks time. Which is about 54 medium frames of bees. So that's why you can add 5-7 medium boxes at once... and Checkerboard the boxes. As the cluster will overlap boxes of drawn comb with foundation in the middle.

When we are talking about wintered singles, the amount of capped brood is less, so Checkerboarding is more necessary.

For example a single deep with 5 frames of fully capped brood gives about 10 frames of bees in a couple of weeks time. So only enough to fill a deep 10 frame super. I would move at least 2 drawn combs up into the super to encourage the bees to move into the box. If you used medium supers, you should be able to get away with a box of foundation and then a box of drawn comb on top... Because the cluster would overlap boxes of drawn comb with foundation in the middle.

So that would mean that with 10 frames of fully capped brood you have about 20 frames of bees in a couple of weeks. Enough to fill 2 supers. Checkerboarding will definitely work. But maybe you may be to get away with having a box of foundation and then a box of deep combs on top. If the supers are mediums you can use 3 medium boxes. But I would also keep the top two boxes with drawn comb to help get the bees to move into the boxes.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Just wanted to say that your hives are looking great Cristian!


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

merince said:


> Just wanted to say that your hives are looking great Cristian!


Thanks. Beginner's luck 

I lack this experience in measuring and timing and try to get it right from the begining. Bees are expensive.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

I've done some checkerboarding again yesterday. The amount of bees is overwhelming for me and there are still plenty left to hatch.
I've seen many patches of drone cells and lots of nice drones on the frames so I guess the girls are sticking to their natural plan; still the queen lays tons of egs so I didn't notice any backfilling yet.

The flow on dandelions is approaching the end and the apples are almost in fool bloom.

I've moved 2 frames of brood up in the middle and added an empty frame with just a thin wax starter. That gave them more room as the bottom box was too crowded.

I can really see the benefits of using the same frame/body size everywhere.


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