# Record for supers on a hive ?



## katmike (Apr 29, 2005)

I was talking to an older beekeeper in our area that was selling honey at our local festival yesterday. He told me he had some hives that were so tall he had to go out and get some poles to keep the stack stable... 14 honey supers on a hive.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

OK, but how many supers did that colony FILL?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

And was it a eight, ten, or twelve frame hive ?


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## The Worker (Jul 20, 2005)

And how much mead had he drunk?


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## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

The world record was set in South Africa, in 1949, if I'm not wrong. The hive was up to four meters tall (same as 28 supers), and was run by several queens. It yielded 960 kg of honey in 8 months. (According to Crane - 'Bees and Beekeeping').

João


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## katmike (Apr 29, 2005)

Unfortunately I didn't think to ask some of those questions. He was until recently the state bee inspector for the central Illinois region, so all I can assume is that he is probably using standard equipment. I don't know if I'll get a chance to ask so I'll just turn the topic back to what's POSSIBLE under ideal conditions.

What's the best year you've had in terms of production from a single hive (in terms of # of supers) under some assumptions:

- Standard 10 frame honey supers.
- All marketable honey removed the previous fall.
- One queen

While I am sure there are other assumptions I need to include, I am just trying to compare apples to apples here to get a general idea of how many supers I should have on hand if my first year hives make it through this winter.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Once I can't reach the top super without a ladder I figure it's time to harvest.







I've been there before but not that often.


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## Mitch (Jul 7, 2003)

I had one hive do 6 supers this year a fist for me.This was a pain to work with so i am with MB time to harvest.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

First, the record should not be based on a "multiple" queen hive. That means the record can be broken by just building a bigger hive and having more queens. I am not sure if thats feasable, but records should be based on a standard procedure or base. I know the question was just "record for supers on a hive", which allows for any interpretation. I would like to think a record is based on one queen, one season.

I have a picture and small heading from a "organic growers" magazine(I believe). I do not have the story that went with it. The heading is "The Aebis are especially proud of hive #4, which yielded a world record honey production of 404 pounds in 1974" The picture shows two men standing beside the hive. I can easily count 13 supers. Maybe some of you old timers know of a family called the Aebis. 

Part of the article is on the back of the picture and one of the gentelman's first name is Ormond. And it mentions Santa Cruz. Anyone know of them? (Ormond Aebis??)


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

I never thought about a record, but I have harvested a deep and returned it to the hive and harvested it again 10 days later. Approx. 5 gallons each time. No left over from the year before, and the season wasn't over, but I never bothered to make notes on what thw hive did after the second harvest.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.beesource.com/pov/simon/10principles.htm

"I love Ormand. He's my friend. Acknowledged grand master of the game, third generation beekeeper, author of two great books on the subject, holder of the world's record in the GUINESS BOOK OF RECORDS for the most honey produced by a single hive in a single season with a single queen, 404 pounds, a record that held from 1957 - 1963, when it was broken only with the use of multiple queens. Ormand's true, single-queen record will most likely never be even seriously challenged. But he doesn't keep bees anymore. The unthinkable happened. It was not that he got too old. He is very old, but he still works in carpentry. What happened was the mites wiped him out."


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Heck, anyone could break the "world record", (whichever
is the actual record) by simply combining multiple
strong hives just before the flows, yet keeping a single queen.

While such stunts are impressive, what matters is
one's *overall average* yield per hive. 
Anyone can do just about anything they want with
one hive and attribute the results to skill
rather than luck, the trick is can you do it for
all (or the bulk of) your hives, which proves
that it was skill, rather than luck.

For example, one can feed like heck in the early
spring, and then just before the flow, cage the
queen to keep her from laying eggs that divert
house bees from "more important" tasks, like
handling honey, fanning, etc. This is an ooooold
strategy, but if one knows one's flows well, one
can cage and release queens "on schedule" to
produce brood when YOU need it, rather than when
it is nothing but a drain on resources, resulting
in bees emerging at times that do nothing to help
one's harvestable crop.

This trick alone can easily result in about
50% more harvestable honey, but is a precision
game, one that cannot wait for "good" weather,
or tolerate an inability to find the [expletive
deleted] queen quickly in each and every hive.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Ormand Wrote 

"The art & adventure of beekeeping" and "Mastering the Art of Beekeeping"

There are used copies around on the net if you look hard enough - I beleive they can also be had used through Amazon.com. I liked them, but they are not super technical.

Keith


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## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

> Anyone can do just about anything they want with one hive and attribute the results to skill rather than luck, the trick is can you do it for all (or the bulk of) your hives, which proves that it was skill, rather than luck.


... or the luck in having access to a better place, plants, race, weather conditions, which ultimately proves too little about the beekeeper's actual skill (unless it's a local - not a world - contest).




> For example, one can feed like heck in the early spring, and then just before the flow, cage the queen to keep her from laying eggs that divert house bees from "more important" tasks, like handling honey, fanning, etc.


Probably I missed something, because I just can't see how queen confinement could improve the colony performance.

For how many days must the queen be kept caged? Which bees would storage honey in, say, 30 days from the queen confinement? Which bees would be the new foragers in 40 days? Of course there will always be bees that do these "less important" tasks, but at the expense of the other tasks. 

If the hive has a stable population, you can roughly assume that the number of bees that die each day is equal to average daily queen laying. If the queen doesn't lay, the colony immediately starts to shrink. As it shrinks, new balances have to be achieved, or the whole colony would disapear in a very short period - remember the average lifespan of a bee during the flow is about 30-40 days. And that obviously means (to me) less foragers than with a laying queen. Or am I wrong?

João


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

The thing to keep in mind with old beekeepers is the only thing taller than their stack of supers is thier tales! I've seen 8 in good years on 2 queen units but 14 needs to be confirmed by a state inspector, the president of the local bee club and former FEMA director Brown before I'd beleive it!


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

It would be a lot more work, but the most reliable way to break a record is to stack the supers all on one hive AFTER they are filled. That way ya know what ya got.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

I don't know about "records" (one beek here had 9 stacked this year, but I think he was showing off), but I averaged 122 lbs per hive this year...and that's without sourwood july flow...sourwoods bloomed, but it rained all July and sourwood is a short, strong, July flow.

BubbaBob


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I just can't see how queen confinement could 
> improve the colony performance.

By freeing up house bees during the flow from
any "brood tending duties". It takes LOTS of
bees to raise brood, and LOTS of bees to
process honey. If you have a specific flow
period, with a longish dearth after (common in
the USA), there is no need to raise bees that
will never be able to help make a crop.

Note that this approach is very common among
beekeepers who want to raise comb honey,
which requires large numbers of both comb-drawing
and nectar handling bees during a fairly short
period.

> For how many days must the queen be kept caged?

This depends upon the length of the post-flow
dearth. The longer the dearth, the longer one
would want to keep the queen caged. At some
point, one wants both mature foragers to gather
the nectar from the 2nd flow, and young house
bees to process the nectar, so one wants to
uncage the queen in time to lay eggs that will
turn into and "appropriate" mix of bees for one's
purposes.

> Which bees would storage honey in, say, 30 days 
> from the queen confinement?

A 30-day flow would be a wonderful thing to have.
We don't have such a long flow here in VA.

> Which bees would be the new foragers in 40 days?

Around here, we don't have a 2nd flow so quickly
after the first.

> Of course there will always be bees that do 
> these "less important" tasks, but at the 
> expense of the other tasks.

The "gain" in my suggested approach is threefold:

1) Brood is not fed, less nectar is consumed

2) Bees are not occupied with brood rearing,
and will move to nectar handling and comb
drawing

3) Bees that will die before the next flow are
never raised, and do not consume nectar/honey
during the dearth period in which they will
live, and fly fruitless sorties in search of
blooms that do not exist.

> the number of bees that die each day is equal 
> to average daily queen laying.

No, it is equal to the average queen laying
BEFORE the flow, when she was being encouraged
by the addition of a feeder that was never allowed
to run dry and pollen patties. Pumping up colony
populations is an artform in its own right.

> the whole colony would disapear in a very short 
> period - remember the average lifespan of a bee 
> during the flow is about 30-40 days.

My standard number is 45-60 days, which gives
me more time than you might expect. While one
certainly DOES have a declining colony population,
this is precision work, not without some risk to
the less-than-diligent.

> And that obviously means (to me) less foragers 
> than with a laying queen. Or am I wrong?

No, you are correct! Its just when you reach
mid-June in Virginia, the colonies that you don't
move to Sourwood can face a long period until the
late August blooms that can make a "fall crop". 
Eggs laid during the flow in early June are of
NO POSSIBLE USE, as few will survive to do
anything "productive".

They are simply more mouths to feed.

Yes, this is a "tricky" way to maximize one's
harvest. The good news is that it works, if
(and only if) you have a long dearth period.
I'm not saying it is for everyone, but it is
ONE way to maximize one's net harvest, because
you can't sell everything that the bees gather,
you can only sell what's left AFTER the bees
take what they need.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

George Demuth, former editor of Gleanings in Bee culture did much work in the strategy that Mr. Fischer correctly outlines here.
His famous quote, " Are we raising our bees FOR the harvest or ON the harvest?
Also Killion wrote at length about this as well.
My favorite and most efficent run of this strategy goes as follows:
Cage the queen and place the cage dead center in the hive on June 30.(10 days after the peak of the honeyflow in Western Oregon).
Get ready to start pulling honey! A booming colony can fill and cap a western in the blink of an eye when they are queenrite and have no brood to feed.
Now here's what Mr. Fischer forgot to mention:








After 21-24 days, I run all of the bees through the Mitey-Victor and physically remove the varroa present in the hive. This is easy to do because you have also altered varroa's reprodution as well and they are all in the phoretic stage. (riding around on the bees)
Dont forget to release the queen!!
Fast forwarding foraging behaviour and mite removal all wrapped into one neat and orderly strategy. Its something to consider.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

What is the Mitey-Victor ?????


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## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

> A 30-day flow would be a wonderful thing to have.
> We don't have such a long flow here in VA.

I have almost written "unless you're talking about a too short flow", but it looked silly to me. A whole crop in less than 30 days is really something! I'd better pay more attention at what you've been talking about stimulating feed...

João


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## chief (Apr 19, 2005)

Yeah, what is the Mitey-Victor??? It physically removes the mites? More detail please.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If the only criteria is how many supers on the hive, then it all depends on how level it is and how much wind you have.







Of course filling them is an entirely different matter.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

>>Yeah, what is the Mitey-Victor??? It physically removes the mites? More detail please.<< 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Shallotman/MiteyVictor.jpg

You guys are pulling my leg; right?
I thought everyone had one of these.


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## chief (Apr 19, 2005)

Harry,

What does it do exactly. Looks like it is battery powered or something? Are you sure your not pulling my leg?


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## Les Evans (Aug 25, 2005)

I dont know about records but has anybody seen the inside cover of the book 
How To Keep Bees & Sell Honey?

The picture of Charles J. Zellner next to his Hives in Green Bay is pretty impresive.
What is that 8 deeps?


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