# Is treatment-free beekeeping possible at all?



## jorre (Jun 22, 2015)

Hi everyone, I'm just getting started with beekeeping and I'm lucky in that I have a very experienced beekeeper that is helping me with advice.

However, whenever I talk to other beekeepers, they all say that it's really difficult without loosing hives mainly because of varroa mites here in Belgium.
I was wondering if it's at all possible for me to keep bees without treatment with oxal acid and what not here in Belgium. 

I'm sure it's the same in the Netherlands and other countries, but people seem to tell me that I'm really naïve believen that I can keep bees without treatment with products I really don't feel like they belong in a bee hive.

If I wanted to keep my bees as treatment-free as possible, what kind of advice would you give me?

Btw: it has easily been 10 years since I was active on a forum, but this forum is different. I've been reading up on things and the amount of knowledge combined here is immense. Thanks for sharing that knowledge with us beginners!


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## rob6118 (Jul 26, 2014)

Hello Jorre,

I am an american living in Ottignies. I've come to the conclusion that I should just keep my treatment free ideas to myself. For the most part in local associations the age is quite senior, and I wouldn't call the approach open minded. For sure there is a pessimistic approach to treatment free or really anything deviating from the local standard.

There is certainly some merit to the idea that there is nothing new under the sun, but I also personally enjoy interacting with open minded people (such as on beesource for the most part) that will at least articulate their reasoning rather than simply dismiss ideas because they are different from their own.

With that said I have been exceptionally lucky. My commune follows the plan maya for pollinator friendly plantings and even have started a pesticide free initiative. While they have been uncomfortable with me having hives on my small suburban plot, they have been generous to allow me instead an emplacement at a drainage pond on commune property which is nearby and ideal. I've also been lucky to find a mentor who is local, who has taught beekeeping in africa, and whose approach is very open minded, friendly, and while he is very pragmatic is his own approach, he takes the time to understand my desires and approach and to articulate why he feels the way he does. It is a nice combination of his teaching experiences, his confidence in his own approach, and I think a pragmatic desire on his part to make sure I succeed 900m away from his own apiary to avoid any potential problems.

I've committed to at least trying the treatment free route (although actively managing the colonies). My idealism has been moderated a bit by my mentor's intellectual pragmatism but that is the great thing about the exchange of ideas right? I have my approach, he his own, and by communicating and experimenting we will arrive somewhere in the middle.

For the others less open, I don't waste my time trying to convince anyone, who knows I quite possible am the fool for trying . I am the idealist optimistic evil capitalistic american......

With all that said, after only a full year of beekeeping, I have encountered two treatment free beeks. One a father son duo who were quite evangelical, and the other a very elderly and ill beekeeper who did very very little management, whose bees were a bit mean, but who seemed to have no issues at all with keeping his 5 or so hives alive.

Whether that means it's possible for me ................ *shrug* only been 12 months, 3/3 packages still alive and now in double 10 frame deeps, so positive but too early to tell for the long run.

Feel free to drop me a PM if you ever want to meet up for a beer and swap experiences. I have a flemish friend in eppegem who would like to get started and we could meet in the middle.

Rob


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## Graperunner (Mar 13, 2012)

It has been possible for me, try this.

http://bushfarms.com/bees.htm
or
http://www.mdasplitter.com/


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Many beekeepers here ARE treatment-free. However, they have access to bees that were kept treatment-free to begin with. If the only bees you have access to are what we here consider commercial bees that have been treated for generations, then I think you will have a very hard time of it and lose many, many hives getting to where you would consider to be treatment free bees. It CAN be done, but it is a long, hard, and *expensive* road to get there.

Do you have access to VSH bees in Belgium? How about true Buckfast Bees? The best I can suggest is that you Google Michael Bush. He is a proponent, but I have to confess I have never been able to duplicate his results. The best I've been able to do is go VSH traits in my bees.

HTH

Rusty


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## rob6118 (Jul 26, 2014)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Many beekeepers here ARE treatment-free. However, they have access to bees that were kept treatment-free to begin with. If the only bees you have access to are what we here consider commercial bees that have been treated for generations, then I think you will have a very hard time of it and lose many, many hives getting to where you would consider to be treatment free bees. It CAN be done, but it is a long, hard, and *expensive* road to get there.
> 
> Do you have access to VSH bees in Belgium? How about true Buckfast Bees? The best I can suggest is that you Google Michael Bush. He is a proponent, but I have to confess I have never been able to duplicate his results. The best I've been able to do is go VSH traits in my bees.
> 
> ...


Hi Rusty,

We have a conservation effort to reestablish the native black bees which are supposedly more hygienic but less commercial in their production of honey.

http://www.mellifica.be/

There are also local efforts to breed a VSH genetic line of these bees here in Belgium.

http://aristabeeresearch.org/fr/

'Real' Buckfasts are the most commonly used bee in apiculture here (I believe) although Italians and Carnioliennes are also available (I believe Carnioliennes are common in Flanders as well, although less so in Wallonia). 

For the moment I've extensively read Mr. Bush's website and your own an am trying all the tricks (brood break, small cell foundationless, limited syrup feeding for emergency rations only (still no honey harvest), drone comb etc). My mentor is trying the black bees this year, but I am hesitant with the reputation for defensiveness (keeping in mind I need to stay in the good graces of the local municipality). So far I couldn't be happier with my Buckfasts, but would also like to try Carnioliennes (due to my desire to expand aggressively using splits ) in the future as well as the black bees.

Rob


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>Is treatment-free beekeeping possible at all? 
Yes
Can you do it? That's another question.

IMO you need to start with TF bees, either feral or Hygienic bees.
You need to be in an isolated area away from a lot of domesticated bees. 

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/wha...fference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/

http://www.nbb.cornell.edu/seeley.shtml


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

Sure, you can absolutely be treatment free. Understand that genetic evolution doesn't happen in one season though, and expect to lose hives to illness/etc., but if you dedicate yourself to TF, and accept that the illness losses only weed out the weak gene pool, what's left are your survivors!

I understand, as I had to go this route, that ordering package bees sometimes is the only option in Spring. These packages come from breeders who may or may not treat. The sooner you can requeen/make a split so that the potential for local feral genetics get into your hives, the better.

Contrary to belief, bees don't need a beekeeper. Anyone who will argue that, please tell the bees living in trees, fireplaces, awnings, etc. that they have been neglected and will not go on living any longer. 

Where the bees DO need a beekeeper is for lobbying to reduce pesticides!


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

We are treatment free. Took us a few years to be successful. Small cell helps. We raise queens only from colonies that are untreated for several years. We also have started doing Mike Palmer style splits. 

Treatment free is possible.

Shane


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

It is easy to be treatment free but is it possible to be treatment free and keep your colony losses at a minimum?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

tsmullins said:


> We also have started doing Mike Palmer style splits.


What do you mean by Mike Palmer style splits?


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Yes it is.
I am at 5-10% winter losses and it's not cause of mites.

If you start with an inferior domesticated bee you will get inferior domesticated bee.
Feral survivors is where it's at!


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

- please consider my lack of experience as you read my comments ... I still consider myself a new guy -

I also am a bit of a minimalist, sort of by default. I don't want to produce something I have to think twice about before I eat it, & partially due to neglect. As others have stated , to be treatment free means you will lose a few bees. And being a new beek , you will lose a few bees.
My bees are not so much " treatment free", but "treatment minimal". the bees that seem to do the best for me are some Italian-ish mutts with so many bad habits that I keep them about 15 miles away from my "gentle" hives, and some times I do not care if they live or die. they rob, they dispatch their queens & go into endless rounds of supercedure. they tend to be a little "defensive".
but they survive, & generally build up well & early. but this is a very small sample. My advice, keep as many bees as you can, so you can stand a few loses, try different genetics at different locations ( so a vigorous strain with bad habits won't dominate less vigorous, but more desirable strains)
Good Luck! ... CE


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"Btw: it has easily been 10 years since I was active on a forum, but this forum is different. I've been reading up on things and the amount of knowledge combined here is immense."

Swarm intelligence.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

jorre said:


> However, whenever I talk to other beekeepers, they all say that it's really difficult without loosing hives mainly because of varroa mites here in Belgium.
> I was wondering if it's at all possible for me to keep bees without treatment with oxal acid and what not here in Belgium.


The key word here is Belgium. If you can find another treatment free beekeeper in Belgium, (who has done it successfully for say, 3 years), do what he does, with his bees, make him your friend and mentor.

If there are no successful treatment free beekeepers in Belgium, then straight up, your chances of success are close to zero. There would still be no harm giving it your best shot though but realise you may lose bees.

In my country, at any one time there are several "one year wonders", ie, people who are telling everyone they are treatment free, but they have only had bees one year. If you meet some of those, be their friend, but realise the results should be judged for what they are.


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## jorre (Jun 22, 2015)

Wow, I didn't expect to get so many replies in such a short time. Thanks all for giving me your advice. I'll try to answer in more detail in the next couple of days, right now I'm a bit occupied with setting up my first hive .

This forum really shines!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> The key word here is Belgium...


excellent post ot, i heartily agree.


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## rob6118 (Jul 26, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> excellent post ot, i heartily agree.


Indeed that is the keyword.....Does Mr. bush know he is quoted in French? This guy has a nice facebook page in German and is in Normandy and links to another tf breeder in Sweden.  Europe is a small world!

http://rucherecole.com/acatalog/apiculture_naturelle_sans_traitement.html


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

If belgium has a good cold winter where there in no brood rearing for several months, the link to Mel Disselkoen (post #3) above is a good start. The brood break works in these conditions whether you start with commercial stock or treatment free stock. If you combine this method of increase with Mike Palmer's method of overwintering skinny colonies grouped together then it is very doable. A combination of these methods keeps me busy, but my bees alive and healthy. Actually, the biggest problem I faced when I started this process was ECD. Exploding colony disorder can be a real problem if you didn't buy enough frames and boxes. Here is a link to my youtube video showing how I overwinter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g1MFhCYZCc


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Adrian, what percentage of those 5 over 5s made it through winter? I plan on trying 15 or so this year....set up the same way. Sorry....not trying to hijack the thread.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Last winter I had 46/54 of them survive (88%). Compare that to my production colonies 3/10 (30%), also untreated and without the broodbreak. I think it is pertinent. The OP is investigating what can be achieved without treatments.


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Last winter I had 46/54 of them survive (88%). Compare that to my production colonies 3/10 (30%), also untreated and without the broodbreak. I think it is pertinent. The OP is investigating what can be achieved without treatments.


Very interesting....and thank you.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

jwcarlson said:


> What do you mean by Mike Palmer style splits?


Basically, we take colonies that do not produce a surplus, and split them in July. We have found that the late summer splits have a very good overwintering success. We are a zone 6, so we have cold winters.

Shane


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

odfrank said:


> It is easy to be treatment free but is it possible to be treatment free and keep your colony losses at a minimum?


Excellent question,

I don't have the data to answer that. But, by going TF, we are not looking at today. We are looking down the road. Hopefully breeding stronger bees. 

Take yellow jackets. They are stomped on, sprayed, burned and gassed. But, yet Yellow Jackets are thriving.

Shane


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

tsmullins said:


> Hopefully breeding stronger bees.


Is it working? Once I've been on Beesource 10 years I'm going to run a poll to see if treatment free bees are indeed giving better results than they had been 10 years previous.

The feeling I'm getting at this point is there was a quick jump to bees that could live with varroa as an apiary anyway, but the next stage of improvement on that as in better survival and productivity is slower coming.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Yes OT, there are problems with treatment free bees. They have several quirks that make managing them for honey production more difficult. I have not used treatment of any kind since the fall of 2004. My bees are alive and thriving, but they tend to swarm much more than I like and they are far more likely to come through winter as dinks the next spring. My best results have been with queens raised in late summer that come into the next spring and make a good crop of honey.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Ha ha what is this you may loose hives? You WILL loose hives if you go treatment free, it's kinda the whole point let nature take out the weak ones. And split the heck out of the ones that survive after some time depending on your bees and area they stop dieing in large numbers


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have only treated once in this early Spring using the OA. Since then
I have never seen any mite on the main hive and all the other nucs split.
So if I don't treat will I lose some hives? This is the 4th generation grafted queens from the
mite resistant mother queen that I bought last year. Any hive that showed signs of resistant I
will graft from that queen. All queens are open mated, locally. Time will tell if treatment free is
possible or not as I'm heading toward that direction, eventually.


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## rob6118 (Jul 26, 2014)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> If belgium has a good cold winter where there in no brood rearing for several months, the link to Mel Disselkoen (post #3) above is a good start.


Thanks for reiterating the above Adrian. I hadn't seen Mel's site before and found it very interesting and indeed to be combined with overwintering nucs. Will be my strategy this year if I can get my apiary remodel done in time.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Do you have access to VSH bees in Belgium?


As far as I know there are no TF beekeepers in Belgium, there is a group working on these VSH bees (crossed with my bees BTW) but they all treat at least most of their hives.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Is treatment-free beekeeping possible at all?

Most of the bees in most of the world are treatment free. All of the wild ones are. All of the feral ones are (we don't have wild ones here). Most of the bees in third world countries are. Most of the bees in Africa are. I say the number thrown around once in Bee Culture that 60% of the ones in the US are not being treated.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I'm chemical free, we use IPM, & small cell. 
Last winter 14 of 14 survived. Been practicing it about 8 years.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Last winter I had 46/54 of them survive (88%). Compare that to my production colonies 3/10 (30%), also untreated and without the broodbreak. I think it is pertinent. The OP is investigating what can be achieved without treatments.


This is an interesting, valuable, and rarely seen, data point. 

Thanks for sharing!


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Fusion_power said:


> My bees are alive and thriving, but they tend to swarm much more than I like


I seem to be almost completely untroubled by swarming this year. I'm running unlimited brood nests on starter strip. I keep them wax building by using 2:1 comb or foundation alternating with starter strip for supers too. I'm seeing lots of drones - but lots of honey too, despite all the comb-building.

I've started lifting a couple of fullish combs when adding supers to minimise stalling. 



Fusion_power said:


> and they are far more likely to come through winter as dinks the next spring. My best results have been with queens raised in late summer that come into the next spring and make a good crop of honey.


I too get too many underperformers; but that's probably partly because I've let everything live on till now. Now I'm requeening the bottom 3rd I'm expecting that to improve. 

Mike (UK)


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## jorre (Jun 22, 2015)

At this point, I only have one hive so experimenting isn't really an option since I'm still learning everything. I've talked to a lot of beekeepers so far and all of them tell me that I need to treat my bees if I don't want to loose them. 

The keyword must be Belgium, where not treating your bees is frowned upon, since those untreated bees will probably bring varroa mites into your own hives. That's what they told me over and over again.

Let's see what this first summer and winter bring and if I'm able to add a couple more hives over there years I'll definitely try to develop my own style, preferably treatment minimal.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

welcome to the forum jorre. 

whether in belgium or any location for that matter and what i was heartily agreeing with oldtimer on is that someone just starting out with bees and wanting to go treatment free is more likely to succeed if they can find a beekeeper with experience doing the same, obtaining bees from them, and following their practices. the next best approach would be to locate (if possible) areas in which bees are surviving in the feral state, trapping swarms from them, and keeping your bees in close enough proximity so that successive generations of queen can mate with those ferals. 

if it is the case that most if not all bees in your country are being sustained with treatments, and if bees existing in the feral state are all but nonexistent, then it may be difficult if not impossible to operate a productive apiary off treatments. 

frequent splitting and induced brood breaks may thwart the mites enough and allow one to not run out of colonies, but it's hard to get a meaningful honey harvest under that scenario, one could however still realize income from the selling of nucleus colonies.


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## rob6118 (Jul 26, 2014)

Just got my monthly newsletter which included preliminary results of an overwintering survey. 408 respondents, 1814 hives, with a mortality of 35.17%. Interesting to note that a full &#55357;&#56841; 3.02% are self declared treatment free but no breakdown of mortality versus treatment approach. That means in this little country there is at least 12 of us and that is something &#55357;&#56833;.

Curious how that compares to the USA? 20%?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

jorre said:


> I was wondering if it's at all possible for me to keep bees without treatment with oxal acid and what not here in Belgium.


Oxalic acid is not treatment-free. It's a treatment.

Also, you can't keep bees without losing bees, treatment or not.

Yes, it's possible, I've been doing it for 12 years, and I started with commercially available package bees.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

KQ6AR said:


> I'm chemical free, we use IPM, & small cell.
> Last winter 14 of 14 survived. Been practicing it about 8 years.



:scratch: Kind of integral to IPM is testing and taking actions (generally a treatment of some sort) based on your results. So I'm not sure what you are trying to get across with "we use IPM" IPM also includes understanding pest life cycles, when pests are vulnerable, etc.

Will you please elaborate on what you were trying to convey? 14 of 14 survivors is impressive and I want to be sure to understand you.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Solomon Parker said:


> Also, you can't keep bees without losing bees, treatment or not.


That ain't necessarily so.


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## jorre (Jun 22, 2015)

rob6118 said:


> Just got my monthly newsletter which included preliminary results of an overwintering survey. 408 respondents, 1814 hives, with a mortality of 35.17%. Interesting to note that a full �� 3.02% are self declared treatment free but no breakdown of mortality versus treatment approach. That means in this little country there is at least 12 of us and that is something ��.
> 
> Curious how that compares to the USA? 20%?


Interesting news!


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I would like to report that I am getting a honey harvest from treatment free colonies. I put overwintered 5 over 5 nucs transferred into 10 frame equipment. These are my honey production figures from the colonies dedicated to production and not increase. I was not overwintering 5 over 5's for the first couple of years, but I will include the numbers anyway. 

2008, one top bar hive - 30 pounds.
2009, 0 pounds - transitioning to 10 frame langstroths.
2010, 540 pounds/5 hives = 108 pound average.
2011, 578 pounds/7 hives = 82 pounds average.
2012, 1914 pounds/18 hives = 106 pounds average.
2013, 1392 pounds/11 hives = 126 pounds average.
2014, 1080 pounds/11 hives = 98 pounds average.

I sell most of my honey at work by word of mouth sales. I run my apiary this way: 1/3 for honey production, 1/3 for sale, 1/3 splitting and increase. I accept that my production colonies will likely perish. I only want to buy queens or cells for genetics, and so operate this way in the hope that I will have enough of a safety margin that the variable will be how many colonies i sell in the spring, not how many colonies I will buy. So far it is working out. I have nucs and production colonies in the same apiary.
I am trying something different this year. Following Michael Palmer's ideas of leaving some nucs in nuc equipment and running them as brood builders I exchanged all the sealed brood in my support colonies for all the unsealed brood in my production colonies. I then requeened with purchased queen cells. I want to see if a brood break will improve the overwintering rate of colonies that have produced a crop. I am undecided yet what configuration I will overwinter them in - 5 frame or 10 frame equipment. There is still much to learn.


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## MartinW (Feb 28, 2015)

Thanks for sharing this. Very inspiring to see insights into treatment free beekeeper using these concepts in a lifestyle business.


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