# Dovetail Hive Bodies



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If you used rectangular corner keys instead of the dovetailed ones it would probably still be almost as strong as box joints, and a lot easier to make. They do look good though.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

Never seen rectangular corner keys. I've been using a Kehoe Dovetail jig. It comes with a setup to make the splines that's pretty simple, I made about 1000 of them today. Because the dovetail is tapered it locks in better and is stronger. Plus it's pretty. 

One of these days I'll put one together with inlayed dovetails and corners just because I can (It was cheaper to buy a couple different jigs together than separate). I'm still getting the hang of it, but I'll be getting plenty of practice. I'm going to need the practice anyway because my wife wants me to make cupboards for the second kitchen we're adding on.


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## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

Mr.C i have been making dovetail joints as well.I am using a dovetail jig i got from sears a while back.Makes nice clean joints they seem to be very strong.According to my woodworking book the one that i make for my boxes are called half-blind dovetail joints!I'm on seasonal layoff so i have plenty of time to make them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I have finger jointed boxes that are older than myself and older than you. How long do you want them to last? Do you think the joint type makes the box last longer? I'm glad you are having fun. I bet you won't want to let them go cheap.


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## feltze (May 15, 2010)

I finished about 75 deeps and mediums doing half blind dovetails. The jig works great they assemble well but it still takes a long time. I've done a bunch of mediums using a "drawer locking joint" done on the shaper which assembles well but I don't think it is as strong with pine lumber. So I made a jig for the router for cutting 3/4" finger joints. I ran a set of 10 shallow supers in record time. 

The router: 

1/2 inch shank craftsman plunge router with a 3/4" plunge cutter

The Jig: 
- I replaced the router base with 1/4 lexan, 
- Attached a 3/4" wide x5/8" deep x 8" long slide/guide* exactly 3/4" from the bit (a 3/4" plunge cutter)

* The slide guide was Oak slightly tapered to reduce drag, with the width of 3/4" being in the center next to the router bit. The slider is bolted to the lexan with slightly elongated holes to allow for micro adjustment of the space between the guide and cutter facilitating spacing exactly 3/4" from the cutter

Use: 
clamp several (10 or more) sides squarely {{{{ in all directions}}}} together. 
Stand on end
Align the router guide to the edge and run through 
Second pass the guide will fit in the first cut line, run a second time.
Third pass the guide fits in the second pass cut line... etc

For the opposite side boards use a starter plate of 3/4 inch clamped to the edge of the stack of sides to facilitate cutting the first cut line and repeat like before. 


I suppose pictures or a vid would help. I may do that next time if I have a helper.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

My first couple boxes had half hidden dovetails and they are cool. Now all the boxes are put together with rabbets  But dovetails are admittedly much cooler :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Mr. C said:


> Never seen rectangular corner keys.


You don't need a special jig or bit to make a rectangular keyed faux box joint. Even though there isn't a wood interlock like the faux dovetail joint that you are making you get lots of long grain glue area - like a box joint - which is very strong. 

I thought you were making the key stock with a rounter table, or table saw set at an angle - either of which is very tedious to get set up just right. Whereas with the rectangular ones you either use a dado blade or router bit which already fits standard 1/2" or 3/4" stock or you plane it down to whatever thickness you want - either way it's relatively quick and easy.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I am impressed with the jig on the floor to glue them up square! I just built 5 supers and after building furniture I did not pay as much attention as I should have. Glued up the finger joints and went in the house to help with the kids Christmas presents. I came out and one of my boxes was off of square by 3/8”. I hope the bees don’t mind because every time I take the clamps off it springs back.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

It used to be. Back when hand tools where all there where. That a carpenter made all of his own tools. His best work was represented in those tools. it was like an advertisement of his skill. If his skill improved he would often make a new tool to display it. Dovetails for bee boxes is a little on the extreme side but it also shows a touch of excellence. Nice touch I am pretty sure you won't regret making the extra effort.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

An interesting idea/fantasy(?) DanielY. That must have been along time ago. Because, 18th century carpenters in VA didn't do that, to the best of my knowledge. Carpenters and Smiths were different Trades requiring different skills. The forging of iron and steel into usable quality cutting tools took many years of instruction and practice.

I can't picture an 18th century carpenter making his own axes, chisels, hammers and saws. Not even his own nails or screws.

But, it's a nice romantic idea. I just don't see it happening.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Would look great with walnut keys and then just varnished.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

>I thought you were making the key stock with a rounter table, or table saw set at an angle - either of which is very tedious to get set up just right. Whereas with the rectangular ones you either use a dado blade or router bit which already fits standard 1/2" or 3/4" stock or you plane it down to whatever thickness you want - either way it's relatively quick and easy. <

They are tedious to make, but not as bad as you think. Because the splines have a taper to them and stick out both ends, you can be off by a little bit and they work just fine. By setting a stop all uou have to do is flip-cut-flip-cut. I made about 1000 in 2 or 3 hours. I just wish you could cut more than one at a time.

>Would look great with walnut keys and then just varnished. <

I'll do that sometime, but I have lots of pine scrap and 0 walnut, it would take quite a lot to do the number of boxes I have. I'll probably make an extra fancy one for a home yard hive later on. I'll be wax dipping rather than varnishing.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> An interesting idea/fantasy(?) DanielY. Carpenters and Smiths were different Trades requiring different skills.
> 
> I can't picture an 18th century carpenter making his own axes, chisels, hammers and saws. Not even his own nails or screws.
> 
> But, it's a nice romantic idea. I just don't see it happening.


I don't see it that difficult to understand that two different trades could share common skills. I know many knife makers that forge very fine blades. I don't think many of them would consider themselves blacksmiths.

Screws, nails and metal hammers where not commonly in use. The screw did not become commonly used as a fastener until about 1940. Carpenters used joinery not fasteners. What screws did exist where made by either a carpenter or a machinist. they never where made by blacksmiths.

If your point is correct that different trades cannot possible share common skills. How do you explain the farmer that is a beekeeper, or the beekeeper that fixes his their own vehicles? or the mechanic that knows how to cook?

Yes carpentry and blacksmithing where both skills that required years of training. in the case of the carpenter how to forge cutting tools was part of those years of training. It is also true that training was not standardized or uniform. The customer had to have some way to evaluate the actual skill of the crafts person. Since the carpenter could not carry a portfolio of pictures of his work. He had to be able to demonstrate it in some way. The hand making of tools also serves a functional purpose as well. The tools is made custom for the person, not exactly like the other several million tools that where stamped out of a machine. I know for a fact that the handle on a hammer makes a difference. But you have to drive a whole lot of nails to discover it for yourself.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Where are you getting your ideas/knowledge from?

When I refer to Blacksmiths I am refering to the general trade of smithing black metal, of which tool makers was one of the areas/aspects of the general trade category.

The idea that two trades could is not difficult to understand at all. whether they did or not is what is under discussion and I maintain, whereas some may have at one time or another, this was not the general practice through the ages. Not in most of North America from 1609 until present anyway. Except, perhaps, in some remote parts of the frontier where the Blacksmith was a Carpenter too. Or where a Farmer/Homesteader made everything he needed to use to build his home and farm.

Why couldn't a carpenter carry a porfolio of pictures? Not that a local carpenter would need to. All he would have to do is point to this house or that barn. Besides, their reputation would procede them, so no portfolio would be necassary.

Nails and hammers were not in common use? What was siding held on w/? What about interior finished walls? How were they finished, if not by use of nails and hammers to hold the lath in place?

Have you ever made nails? Forged them? I have. Nail making was a trade of its own. Specialized tools were used. Much practice was necassary to be proficient in quality and efficiency of speed of production.

Where is your knowledge from? Maybe it comes from where you live? Maybe we are speaking of different times and places.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

I have never heard that carpenters were forging their own steel. That was definitely done by smiths...pretty much all the way back.
But it is true that for a long time..certainly into the 18th century, and even the beginning of the 19th, Shipwrights and housewrights would build their own tools (not the irons) such as plane bodies, saw and drill housings, mallets and handles, measuring devices, layout tools, ect....and most importantly the tool chest that housed these treasures. This process was part of their graduation from apprentice to journeyman and eventually to master in the old guild training systems. The tool chest in particular was meant as a "proof" of their skill level. Their was even a period of time when a fellow could get in quite a bit of trouble for displaying workmanship/joinery skills in a chest that they could not actually produce themselves....but the guilds have not been that strong in a long long time!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> If your point is correct that different trades cannot possible share common skills. How do you explain the farmer that is a beekeeper, or the beekeeper that fixes his their own vehicles? or the mechanic that knows how to cook?


Anyone w/ a beehive can call himself a beekeeper. Which cannot be said, w/ any credibility, of someone who owns a forge calling themselves a Blacksmith or someone who owns a bag of Carpenters tools calling themselves a Carpenter or someone owning a toolbox of wrenches and etc calling themselves a Mechanic and being able to Cook themselves meals too.

To truly be any of these, to be able to do them well and at a high level of skill takes knowledge and practice over years of time.

How do I explain the Farmer who is a beekeeper, etc? That's someone who is multitalented. A Jack of all Trades and a Master of none. As the saying goes. They may be good or adequate at doing the things they do, but how do they identify themselves? As Farmers. A respectable laudable appelation.

Do you own any bees yet?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

deleted, it is not worth the effort.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So you don't own any bees yet. Eh?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Pre industrial carpenters probably didn't usually make the metal parts of their tools, but they did polish their craft by making really cool tool chests - the pinnacle of that art may be this one...










In one of those oddly appropriate naming coincidences the owner of this chest was Henry Studley.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Now I am starting to get curious. Just what does owning bees have to do with anything? It seems to be an issue you are obsessed with. I guess I just don't get the importance of it. Did they have to give you a your first hive before sending you off to 1st grade because the effort would have been useless without them. Is there some unknown requirement that only those with bees can gain knowledge? As far as I can tell owning bees is only an indication of a person that likes to throw away a lot of money on bugs. If that is your big banner of wisdom, my condolences.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I am under the impression, from something you wrote a while ago on another Thread, that you don't have any bees, haven't owned any bees, but hope to some day. Yet, you seem to know all sorts of things about bees and beekeeping and have ideas and opinions on how things should work and be done.

So, I find it interesting that someone who appears to have no bees and no experience spends so much time Posting on beesource.

How about your background in the history of Carpentry and Blacksmithing? Where does that come from?


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I saw a documentary on the guys who made wood planers back in the day. Although they were blacksmiths they also had a background in carpentry. But making planes was such a specialized practice, the blacksmiths who did so were the suppliers of these quality tools to carpenters and they had to have a dual background. Now if you make hammers you need handles, or if you make chisels or screwdrivers or whatever, you need handles. Im not saying a blacksmith couldn't make his own woodenware but the two trades seem to be mutually exclusive in the sense that I wouldnt expect the local blacksmith to be making fine furniture, or the local carpenter to have his own forge. Not that the local blacksmith couldn't build his own house. I took the remark to mean that all carpenters make their own jigs but I guess that wasn't what was said.

This one looks like it might turn a normally rational forum into a pigeon fest so ima back out of it now


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I would bet that doing metal and wood work in the same shop has always had the same issue that it does today - it's a fire hazard. 

You know I never realized that I was just someone who liked to waste money on bugs. What a revelation.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Why do we all have to act so undomesticated online? Everybody I have met from this forum in person was very civilized and polite, but throw in the internet aspect and it all goes out the window. 

I consider myself a "Jack of all Trades"


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> . Is there some unknown requirement that only those with bees can gain knowledge? As far as I can tell owning bees is only an indication of a person that likes to throw away a lot of money on bugs. If that is your big banner of wisdom, my condolences.


I have known really good Farriers who never owned horses. I would bet a good portion of the people who make their living in this country by beekeeping haven't ever owned their own hives. habla espanol?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ShQt-AEoFM&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL90AE305926AB86D6


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> It used to be. Back when hand tools where all there where. That a carpenter made all of his own tools. His best work was represented in those tools. it was like an advertisement of his skill. If his skill improved he would often make a new tool to display it. Dovetails for bee boxes is a little on the extreme side but it also shows a touch of excellence. Nice touch I am pretty sure you won't regret making the extra effort.


Here is where the wheels came off the cart. "That a carpenter made all of his own tools."

Show me a carpenter, someone who built houses, who made his own saw. I'd like to see the Historical Documentation on that one. Otherwise, Daniel is mistaken and got this idea wrong. Which doesn't make him a bad person, just misinformed.

Do you think these "Carpenters" gathered their own ore, smelted it to produce iron, then from the iron produced steel, which they forged into sheet metal to make into a saw blade? Did this Carpenter make the files needed to file the teeth sharp? Because that's a special trade too. File making. I've never made one, but I've seen them made.

I'm sorry if you think I'm being inhospitable or whatever you might call me, but, when someone makes comments that don't make a lot of sense, I question what they are saying and ask for clarification, because maybe I can see where they went wrong and steer them back towards reality and historic fact.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> I have known really good Farriers who never owned horses.


Which has what to do w/ what?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you think these "Carpenters" gathered their own ore, smelted it to produce iron, then from the iron produced steel, which they forged into sheet metal to make into a saw blade? Did this Carpenter make the files needed to file the teeth sharp? Because that's a special trade too. File making. I've never made one, but I've seen them made.


Ever see The woodwright's shop on PBS? Roy Underhill does it all from cutting the tree to forging nails. He is still a "Woodwright". 

Jack of all, master of none. 

The point of the farrier comment is that a person can be exceptionally good at something without ever having owned one. You can't shoe a horse without having the know how of how to handle a horse, but you don't have to own a horse to be an exceptional horseman.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Ever see The woodwright's shop on PBS? Roy Underhill does it all .


Big softball..........


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do you know that the word "woodwright" is a word that Roy made up? That the word Wright means to build? How do you build wood? A housewright builds houses. A shipwright builds ships. A wheelwright builds wheels. All wrights use wood to build what they build.

Smiths hammer metal to produce what they produce. Blacksmiths hammer iron and steel. Coppersmiths hammer copper. Pewtersmiths hammer putter. So on and so on.

"you don't have to own a horse to be an exceptional horseman"? Technically you are right. But what does that have to do w/ Farriering?

Oh, by the way, Roy Underhill was my Master at Colonial Williamsburg for 5 years. I literaly worked under him as a Sawyer. A Pit Sawyer. As a Carpenter. An 18th Century Carpenter. Roy is great at what he does. He is a great Mechanic, in the true sense of the word. He can make anything he sets his mind to. 

In all those years in Wmsbg, we Carpenters never made our own tools. Sure, we made the handles that went into the froes, hammers, chisels, pitsaws and axes, but the Blacksmiths, the guys who knew how to forge iron and steel, the black metals that they smithed, hammered, made the sharp edged tools, hammers, spikes, nails, screws, hinges, door latches and any other metal needed in the building of buildings.

Go to Wmsbg w/ me and I will show you buildings I built or helped build using 18th Century tools and metal fasteners.

Roy was up in a tree in his back yard in Winston-Salem, NC, retrieving a swarm of bees when he got the okay from NCPBS to do The Woodwright's Shop". He went back up in the tree to get the swarm. His wife called him down again, because Colonial Williamsburg was on the line accepting his proposal to start a Carpentry Yard in the Historical Area. He took both jobs w/ the understanding that he could do both.

And, because of Roy, I was able to do research in the libraries of Colonial Williamsburg to research 18th century beekeeping, so my buddy/mentor Lew LeCompte, Journeyman Cooper, could set up a display of beekeeping, complete w/ bees, using designs from the 17th and 18th century from encyclopedias available to colonial Virginians like Thomas Jeffereson. That's where I got the bee bug.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I remember you saying in the past that you worked with him.

Made up words don't usually appear in the dictionary


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

As a McIntyre (Gaelic for son of the Wright) I can speak authoritatively here. Given enough time even madeup words will eventually find their way into the dictionary... Gee are not all words madeup?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> Made up words don't usually appear in the dictionary


What is the etemology of the word "woodwright"? If you look for it online all you get are references to The Woodwrights Shop.

Oh, by the way, I was wrong. It wasn't Winston-Salem, it was Chapel Hill.

Reading Roy's page on wikipedia and learning why he left Colonial Williamsburg raises my respect for Roy and reminds me of the ground breaking techniques of First Person Interpretation, which is not acting at all, which he and others developed the use of during the years I was there w/ him. a time I have quite fond memories of.

That he left CW over the way slave quarters were said to be built by slaves, the Historical Architects insisting that the quarters would have been crudely built and Roy showing otherwise, is pure modern day romanticism of the past. I admire him for that.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Why are we arguing about nothing? 

Happy New Year


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Is that what I am doing? To dispell misconception. And you?

Oh yeah, Happy New Year to you too.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Shipwright... carpenter of ships....

Woodwright... carpenter of wood... naw... sounds redundant to me. Course sometimes we say playwright - meaning builder of plays... I guess. So maybe builder of wood - still makes no sense. 

Oh yea.... Happy New Year..


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

I buy my boxes from a guy in Eastern WA and I cant buy the wood as cheap as he can make sell them to me.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I am doing exactly what it has been advised that I do. You assume way to much. I said I have never owned bees, You assume that ownership is the only way to have worked with bees.
I also do not tell people how I think they should do things. I tell them what I have read others say they should do. The very same people that I have been told to listen to. Funny that you do not recognize the very information that is commonly advised you get "Before" getting bees. As I have said in several locations. I am told to go read this and that and then certain people such as yourself claim that the information in those very books is incorrect. Actually I don't give your opinion much weight at all as I see you little more than an antagonist.
My original comment was concerning the simple truth that excellence is in the details. agree or disagree I really don't care.

To any others sorry if you are offended by the bug comment but for me it is true. Even worse is that it is not even done well.



sqkcrk said:


> I am under the impression, from something you wrote a while ago on another Thread, that you don't have any bees, haven't owned any bees, but hope to some day. Yet, you seem to know all sorts of things about bees and beekeeping and have ideas and opinions on how things should work and be done.
> 
> So, I find it interesting that someone who appears to have no bees and no experience spends so much time Posting on beesource.
> 
> How about your background in the history of Carpentry and Blacksmithing? Where does that come from?


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

First the disclaimers- I have no bees but read this site because they interest me, perhaps later. My father was a carpenter/cabinetmaker so I have some exposure to this craft. I have been a welder and mechanic with an interest in blacksmithing for much of my life.

Consider a molding plane. This is a special plane that cuts a shape, perhaps an ogee into the edge of a board for example. My father had a whole box of them. Most he made himself. Originally the shape of the sole of the plane would have been made by first making a scraper the shape you wanted the plane to ultimately make and using that to carve the sole of the plane. Then one would have carved the place for the iron (blade) to go (the throat I believe) and the wedge that held the iron in place. Now one needs the iron itself. My father ground his from old files. In older times the iron would have been made from wrought iron with a bit of hardenable steel welded onto the front to provide a cutting edge and later, perhaps after rough shaping, been heat treated to provide a durable edge. This is work that requires a fairly competent blacksmith and that is where it would have been done. The iron would then been carefully finish ground until it produced the desired shape. Then as now craftsmen did not operate in a vacuum. They used each others services when it was economical to do so. Sometimes the crafts overlapped. The wheelwright needed both woodworking and blacksmithing skills for example.

Y'all have fun now and don't peck at each other so.
Bill


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Well I just got done making and painting 5 supers this weekend. I have found that I can make 5 from four (4) 8’ boards and have barely enough left over to start my fireplace. I was going to cut them down to shallows but seems I could not seem to wasting the extra 7/8” of wood. Pine goes for $5.60 at the lumber store and $4.90 at the second hand store. I would tell you how much that is each but I may get the math wrong or misspel a word and have to wade through the 12 responses. LOL Back on the thread subject, I sanded the corners and can not tell what the joinery method was. How are you going to finish the dovetail boxes so they stand out?


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## divemaster1963 (Nov 28, 2011)

so Happy to see this tread get back on topic. I cut my own trees.Plank my own logs with a homemade wood mill. dry my own boards in my Homemade Kiln. plain the boards on Homemade drumplainer. cut the panels with 50 yearold tablesaw. I use blind ends for most and use dovetail for my hardwood boxes. paint the blinds and clear coat the doves. I hand inlay my brand mark on the doves also. I am now cutting up a 64 inch dia. 12 foot long solid redoak log from a tree that fell this pass spring. hoping to get 1000 boxes out of it. I cut it 1 1/4 thick for dring then plain to 7/8 after drying. I make my frames from the left overs that are to thin and the outer edges that are to narrow to get a full side out of. 

John.

P.S. I am a former satilite specialist. who is now a Mechanic that makes most of my own tools and machines. way back when the Saying that the mother of nesisity was invention.You had to make your own tools to get the work you wanted to do done. If you didn't you starved and died or served people that had the food.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

John:

I used to do the same thing, but sold my mill a few years ago. I would love to see some pics of your mill, got any?


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

I'm wax dipping my boxes so the joinery shows. I hate painting over wood, it almost feels like a crime (plus I hate painting in general, though painting drywall doesn't bug me too much). That way I have boxes that will yellow with time and still shed water.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

A mill would be an awesome asset. My uncle has one in the UP (upper pennisula Michigan) that he uses (he's semi retired now). He used to be a logger selectively cutting for people and using his mules to haul so there was less impact on the forest. A few guys have them around me and one of my Dad's coworkers even has a kiln set up. Anything I run across worth sawing I just pay to have sawn up. Just can't justify the investment without any real woods on my property, just don't run into enough to make it worthwhile.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Divemaster-
I'm greedier than Bluegrass, I want to see pictures of all your machinery.
Bill


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## divemaster1963 (Nov 28, 2011)

sorry for the slow reply. I'll get photos up soon. having to deal with family medical sitiuation's first. 

John


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

By all means. Family first. Hope they are all well.
Bill


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

On topic: I buy my lumber from a local sawmill, cut to size, and box joint the corners on my table saw with a jig. As sturdy as dovetails, but a bit quicker. Paint has served me well for decades of use.

Off topic: I didn't realize screws weren't generally used as fasteners until the 1940's. I have a 1912 Model T that I'm restoring that has a bunch of screws....so I got curious. Turns out Henry Ford used over 700 screws in each Model T he built, for various applications. FWIW. I suspect screws were in much more general use prior to 1940. 
Regards,
Steven


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Pop rivets hadn't been invented yet.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

The point is probably moot for strength of the joint since both are plenty strong for the application, but dovetails are stronger than a box joint (and prettier!).
Adding nails increases the strength and screws more so again, assuming of course you don't put too big of a nail/screw in and compromise the wood that way. A box joint is weak (relatively speaking) to pressure from the inside out similar to a rabbet joint, but because of the way it's cut there is more surface area for glue to bind to making the hold stronger. A dovetail (depending on type) is designed to resist that pressure more because (in the case of the faux dovetails I use) pressure from the inside is resisted by both glue and wood since the joints are at an angle to the direction of the force. I'm not 100% that my explanation makes sense, but it does in my head =).

As to screws, I think the previous post was referring to common usage, even Archemides had a screw back in ancient Greece (Ya I know not the same thing). I've always used screws for drywall, but remodeling my old farmhouse some of the more "recent" work was done with ringshank drywall nails. My mom remembers the drywallers having a special hammer to sink the nails so they didn't leave a raised head and they could mud over them. Without a cordless drill using screws for drywall would stink.

Just my 2 cents


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Mr C I agree with you mostly. Dovetails are definitely prettier than box joints and rabbit joints, however the only area I'd disagree with you is compairing box to rabbit. The reason why a box joint and dovetail joints are strong is because it opens up to gluing long grain. When you try to glue end grain it doesnt' work. At least w/o some sort of other fastener. There may be a superior glue that I'm not aware of that may penetrate into the end grain and join them better but I haven't seen any. As an experiment just to test what I'm saying take some scraps of wood and glue them together. First glue the end of one piece to the face of another, and secondly glue the side of a piece to the face of another board. Make a "T" out of them. If you'd like you can use screws to hold them until the glue dries. If you use Titebond give it a day to dry just to make sure. Then remove the screws and see which one takes more energy to break. I Think it will be eye opening.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

Good point I knew I was forgetting something, Which also explains why it takes so long for my joints to cure before I can move them (I rabbet them first then dovetail them, I'd prefer locking miter, but it's just not practical with #2 wood). Just to fullfill my curiosity I crunched some numbers. If you run a deep with 3/4in box joints (the top and/or bottom would be slightly larger ears to make it come out) you get 11 surfaces that are long grain to long grain and 3/4 inch square for an area of 8.25 in sq. You also get 7.21875 in sq of endgrain to long grain glueing on each corner, for a total area of 15.4375in sq of gluing surface. A rabbet joint has all end grain to long grain and a total of 10.828125 in sq of gluing surface. In my brain a box joint (minus fasteners of course) is more than twice as strong as a rabbet (Of course it depends on the size of the ears on the box joint), but I'd be curious how mcu more, which as you said would have to be attributed to the difference in gluing surfaces. I also wonder if some of the newer glues like gorrila glue make a difference on penetration (I refuse to work with it if I don't have to, that crap is terrible to get off stuff including my fingers). Anyway I'd like to find a strength test that compares dovetail to box joints, because in my grain again they are stronger, they do add some long grain to long grain gluing surface, but I'm guessing they resist shear force better primarily because they resist with wood more than glue. When I lock in my keys/splines the joint is tough without any glue in it yet.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Just to jump in here a moment w/ a question.

If you were choosing between two types of joinery to use in manufacturing mass quantities of beehive boxes, wanting to satisfy criteria of ease and practicality of production along w/ a decent level of a long product life, which would you choose to use, dovetail joint or finger joint?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Finger joint. A dovetail is better but it also has a lot looks value to it also. the benefits do not validate the additional effort. Of course you can get a dovetail jig that makes it much closer. But that does not hold a candle to a Hauncher if you are really going to make a lot of boxes. SO methods play a roll in this decision as well.
Lets say you are going to cut finger joints with a jig and Dado blade on a table saw. or you could cut dovetails with a router and jig. You start to approach that 6 of one half a dozen of another area. Still the table saw will be faster. it is a stronger machine and will withstand the work better. Less equipment costs. But that added wear and tear as well as time spent on dovetails does have some benefits. When it is all said and done I woudl still stay with the finger joint. but those dovetails years from now will be something you can point at with pride.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

I'd have to agree with Daniel Y. For practicality finger joints definately win, but I enjoy making dovetail boxes so that's what I will continue to do until I can't keep up with my own demand. The ones I make with splines are a bit stronger than other versions, but not enough to make a difference. I just like the look better, but they require more work since the splines need to be cut, glued, recut, and sanded. I'm expanding some next year, but even with splits and new hives I will still be under 20hives so for me it's manageable at the moment, that's what Christmas break is for. This next week or two I start work on frames, again not going to save much money, and definately no time, but I enjoy building what I use. I better take a break and trim out the upstairs windows though before I get myself in trouble.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

I also wholeheartedly agree!!! I'd chose box joints hands down. So much easier, quicker and plenty strong enough. I've cut dovetails (I'm a hand cut guy and dont' know how to use a jig) and they hold square and tight w/o glue. They are great and strong, but in bee boxes it just isn't needed. Box joints are totally fine especially if you're painting them. If so you wont' even see much of the joint which is why I'd want toe dovetails. I wouldn't use rabbet joints w/o a fastener of some sort which ought to make it strong enough.


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