# How can I make hive boxes that are perfectly stackable-a necessary requirement.



## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

I would just buy them. It is easier and you wont have that problem. But, you could get a box joiner. I have been looking for a 17" inch planer but, they don't exist that will go big enough to do a whole box.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Uh, thanks buzzz...but part of the appeal of this hobby is complete emersion in most aspects of beekeeping- especially woodworking...Here, let me get out of here and let someone else take a stab at my question...thanks for your input!


EastSideBuzz said:


> I would just buy them. It is easier and you wont have that problem. But, you could get a box joiner. I have been looking for a 17" inch planer but, they don't exist that will go big enough to do a whole box.


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## Ravenzero (Sep 26, 2012)

I have seen people make the peices 1 inch longer then it should be (top and bottom) and then assemble the boxes. Once assembled, using a table saw, cut a half inch off the top and a half inch off the bottom of the box.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Are you assembling your boxes using a box jig? Michael Bush has a nice one on his site, http://bushfarms.com/bees.htm


HTH

Rusty


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is a direct link to Michael Bush's Box Jig that Rusty referenced above .... 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesboxjig.htm


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## Brian C (Nov 12, 2013)

When cutting your boards to length the ends have to be cut perfectly square. If you are off even a 32nd it will rock. When putting them together before glue sets up set them on a concrete floor on top of each other, I go 5 or 6 high, with a couple cement blocks on top for weight till they dry.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

My first suggestion is to check the *absolute* squareness of your end cuts. In box joints the bottom of gullets are the mating line, not the overall length to the end of projections. In some things small differences may cancel and be insignificant but if your system makes them additive you will see the result.

Many compound sliding miter saws have too much flex for good repeatability. Also the two halves of the back fence are often not perfectly parallel. On a table saw the miter slide may not be set exactly to register square with the degrees scale.

If you are doing rabbeted joints on a table saw any curve or twist end to end in your fence can haunt you.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

vdotmatrix said:


> Uh, thanks buzzz...but part of the appeal of this hobby is complete emersion in most aspects of beekeeping- especially woodworking...Here, let me get out of here and let someone else take a stab at my question...thanks for your input!


Do what you do best and pay for the rest.

Are you in this hobby because of the woodworking or because of the beekeeping? Avoid the frustration and buy your boxes, unassembled of course. You'll be happier, I suspect.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

Make sure the pieces are square.
Assemble based on the outside of the wood and not based on a tight rabbit joint. The rabbit cuts are often sloppy. The gap on the rabbit cuts can be filled with glue later.
I think a rocker is caused by a twist in the board. Rossman's cypress deeps frequently rock.
Go to the granite/kitchen shop and get a small piece of granite cheap. (left overs, too small for anything else, etc)
Assemble and make sure its square.
Place on flat granite and see if it rocks.
If it rocks determine the low and high corners.
Place wedge twice the thickness of the gap under the low corner while the glue is still wet.
Clamp the two neutral corners to the piece of granite.
I am a hobbyist and aren't in any hurry. There is one bad rocker that has been clamped to the granite for a month now.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

When I make boxes (and that's rare), I do not cut the boards exactly to the correct height. IE a 9 5/8" box maybe 10" or so. When assembling, I make sure the top of the box (the rabbeted ends) are flush and true. Then once assembled, I set the saw for 9 5/8, and holding the now assembled box tight up against the fence, I trim all the edges by "rolling" the box. A perfect, flush, non-rocking box every time!


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## garusher (May 28, 2012)

I just make sure my equipment is cutting square and if not, adjust it. just the other day i made up a bunch, rocking boxes is just something i don't have a lot of problems with. It is probably like building most things, preparation is paramount.

G.


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## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

Brian C said:


> When cutting your boards to length the ends have to be cut perfectly square. If you are off even a 32nd it will rock. When putting them together before glue sets up set them on a concrete floor on top of each other, I go 5 or 6 high, with a couple cement blocks on top for weight till they dry.


 That is how I have done it and it has worked for me also,Seems to help even if the boards are little warped.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

HOLY MOLY!!!!

I see a lot of us make our own boxes which I think is pretty rewarding if I can end up with a good product.

I see a lot of VERY use suggestions and will BUY boxes if I am ready to gouge my eyes out with a butter knife...but not a moment sooner....

I found an excuse to buy or upgrade tools so I can make my own boxes.....a compounding hobby!!!!!





kingd said:


> That is how I have done it and it has worked for me also,Seems to help even if the boards are little warped.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Do what you do best and pay for the rest.
> 
> Are you in this hobby because of the woodworking or because of the beekeeping? Avoid the frustration and buy your boxes, unassembled of course. You'll be happier, I suspect.


Well, When I bought my hives this year I bought one assembled and one unassembled....the one I assembled rocked.....it's a good thing wood is cheap and my time is my own and people can't hear me cussing...hahahah Thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>For those of you who make your own equipment, what am I not doing?

Put a concrete block on the lid. After the bees have it all glued together it won't rock anymore...


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

vdotmatrix said:


> Well, When I bought my hives this year I bought one assembled and one unassembled....the one I assembled rocked.....it's a good thing wood is cheap and my time is my own and people can't hear me cussing...hahahah Thanks.


The box jig above was a little hard to follow....but thanks....I think starting with perfectly square ends is what I will next next time...like tomorrow. My problem could be in the assembly and a jog of soirts may be in order, although I used a jig of sorts on the work bench already...

IS THEE A RULE OF THUMB FOR MECAHNICALLY REMOVING OR ALLEVIATING THE ROCKER AFTER THE FACT?

Thanks everyone!!!


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I use butt joints. Box joints are for big producers. I glue them w/titebond II, screw them w/ 3" deckmate screws and assemble them using clamps on a flat surface. After the 1st 2 (where I tried to use rabbett joints) they have stacked perfectly and the boxes are solid.


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## Beeophyte (Oct 17, 2011)

Make sure your work table is flat before you build the box on it...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

vdotmatrix said:


> I ... will BUY boxes if I am ready to gouge my eyes out with a butter knife...but not a moment sooner....


Seems kind of fanatical. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.


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## Beeophyte (Oct 17, 2011)

dsegrest said:


> I use butt joints. Box joints are for big producers. I glue them w/titebond II, screw them w/ 3" deckmate screws and assemble them using clamps on a flat surface. After the 1st 2 (where I tried to use rabbett joints) they have stacked perfectly and the boxes are solid.


I prefer to use finger joints myself and I am just a hobby keeper. BUT I am also kind of a carpentry nut so I am a little different.

Honestly I think all beekeepers should take an interest in carpentry, it really saves a lot of money.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Make sure that you are working on a level surface. When I first started making my own boxes, I figured that keeping the corners square would be enough. Nope! I was assembling on a garage floor, and did not realize that the floor was not level. It looked level, it felt level, but it was not. All it took for me was to have a corner of the box on a slight bulge in the floor, and everything was out of whack. The boxes need to be both square and plumb. I built a story board (a la Ed Simon) on a sheet of 3/4" plywood and have not had any rocking issues (or gaps) since.

ETA: I do buy boxes, but find that making them mostly keeps me out of trouble during the winter. Mostly.


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## Beeophyte (Oct 17, 2011)

Level isn't as important as flat....


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

crofter said:


> My first suggestion is to check the *absolute* squareness of your end cuts. In box joints the bottom of gullets are the mating line, not the overall length to the end of projections. In some things small differences may cancel and be insignificant but if your system makes them additive you will see the result.
> 
> Many compound sliding miter saws have too much flex for good repeatability. Also the two halves of the back fence are often not perfectly parallel. On a table saw the miter slide may not be set exactly to register square with the degrees scale.
> 
> If you are doing rabbeted joints on a table saw any curve or twist end to end in your fence can haunt you.


True words!!!

I keep forgeting that I have an issue with my fence and hence the house that jack built....I have a brand new dewalt 12" sliding mitre that I got after I cut the wood for the current boxes...I am going in tocut wood using the mitre and leave the table saw for the dado.......

Thank you


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

I've been making all my boxes for a few years using box joints. Most sit flush and the few that don't actually sit reasonable tight. A bee can't fit through the crack and the bees will propolize these small "imperfections." I could probably take the time to use a sander in them.

My jig for cutting box joints is hand-made from wood and not a top-quality piece of machinery but it does the trick. I use a scrap piece to do a test cut of the long or short side I want to cut. I test the first cut against a sample mating piece that I know works, fitting them together on a level surface. If they are close to dead-on, then I cut a whole batch of sides of that one length. I then repeat the process for the other length side.

Every once in a while, there is a discussion about making equipment and I always thank those that advise me that I should work extra hours at my day job and buy with after-tax dollars simple boxes I can make from free wood with tools I already have during the winter months when I can't go out to work bees. 

Have you tried making frames yet? I love making them. 

Wayne


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

true that thanks


Chemguy said:


> Make sure that you are working on a level surface. When I first started making my own boxes, I figured that keeping the corners square would be enough. Nope! I was assembling on a garage floor, and did not realize that the floor was not level. It looked level, it felt level, but it was not. All it took for me was to have a corner of the box on a slight bulge in the floor, and everything was out of whack. The boxes need to be both square and plumb. I built a story board (a la Ed Simon) on a sheet of 3/4" plywood and have not had any rocking issues (or gaps) since.
> 
> ETA: I do buy boxes, but find that making them mostly keeps me out of trouble during the winter. Mostly.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

This is so true, it save some money and especially shipping which doesnt sit well with me.....by making my own stuff i get more in tune with the bees.....


Beeophyte said:


> I prefer to use finger joints myself and I am just a hobby keeper. BUT I am also kind of a carpentry nut so I am a little different.
> 
> Honestly I think all beekeepers should take an interest in carpentry, it really saves a lot of money.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You'd better be in tune w/ your table saw or, like a guy I know, you will be picking your fingers out of the sawdust bin.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I took interest in it, for about 2 nights. Boxes are cheaper to buy than the lumber to build them. I build bottoms, tops and nuc boxes. Boxes and frames, Mann Lake gets my money and ships em free. G


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

I seriously doubt that the boxes are cheaper to make unless you are mass producing them. But I understand the pleasure of making them yourself.

Flat and preferable level surface, and as others have said, stack and weigh down before glue dries.

Has anyone tried using a router for the corners. There are locking router bits for making drawers, and I was wondering if anyone had used them for bee boxes. Some come in sets and others are a single item that you change the height on to get the locking fits. One I saw even makes both the groove and the mightier for inserting drawer bottoms and looked like it would be handy for making inner covers.


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## Beeophyte (Oct 17, 2011)

Not yet, I just started using a Dado blade on the table saw. The router should work though, especially if you knocked up a jig.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

rolftonbees said:


> I seriously doubt that the boxes are cheaper to make unless you are mass producing them


Or can recycle clean lumber.

Wayne


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## Beeophyte (Oct 17, 2011)

> I seriously doubt that the boxes are cheaper to make unless you are mass producing them. But I understand the pleasure of making them yourself.


I always have plenty of scrap lumber from other projects, a number of my boxes didn't cost anything. Hard to beat free.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

No matter if you use a box joint, rabbit joint, or butt joint...if all pieces are cut square and accurattlly, everything falls into place for the most part with no problems. I have zero problems with any of my boxes lying ****-eyed on top of one another. 
As for buying boxes cheaper than making them. I go to a lumber store and not one of the Big Home Repair places and wood is a lil cheaper.
for a deep box...wood itself--$6.00... $0.10 worth of glue.....$0.25 for 24 staples.....up to $6.35 for a deep box. Med's are a lil cheaper that that but not by much.....maybe a buck. Havent looked but if they are cheaper than that + frt, at a suppluyhouse, please let me know. Plus one still needs to buy the glue and screws staples nails.


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## Beeophyte (Oct 17, 2011)

I like the flexibility too. If I need a hive like today I can knock one together pretty quick. 

A few years ago my father n' law and I caught a swarm in a cardboard box. Working together we slapped together a quick dirty hive box, bottom board, and cover in less than 40 minutes from wood scraps. I still have those bees and the box we built that day is still in there hive stack.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Twist in wood is very difficult to outwit and it has a long memory. Some degree of cup is practically normal. If your pieces are cupped, wet the cupped sides and in ten minutes or so they will straighten considerably. If you have a day lead time lay them cupped side down on a concrete floor. Makes them easier to assemble or even to cut the rabbets true. 

If you have the choice the cup is easier to pull in if it is on the inside center of the pieces. Watch the grain and keep the heart side out which stacks the odds your way. Remember by this " never put your heart in a box of pine". Just little things but they all help you if you let them.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> IS THEE A RULE OF THUMB FOR MECAHNICALLY REMOVING OR ALLEVIATING THE ROCKER AFTER THE FACT?

Lay a 1x2 on the floor. Set the box with the corners that need to come up diagonally on the 1x2. Stand on the opposite corners (the ones not supported by the 1x2).


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## Beeophyte (Oct 17, 2011)

Not a bad idea Michael. A jig with ratchet straps in place of standing on the box would be cool too. Thanks!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Avoid the frustration and buy your boxes, unassembled of course. You'll be happier, I suspect.


SQUCRK... I would bet you have had lots of commercial boxes that also rock. Am I wrong??

Rocking is a function of end squareness and the assembly process. If you have pressure on one end or side during assembly, (even a very small amount) may cause the box to be out of square, and also, can make it rock. If you get a box that rocks, place it on a level surface and place a heavy weight on it. Once the glue dries it will sit level. As you assemble your boxes place them on top each other and place the heavy weight on the top one. All the boxes will sit level.

If one is really out of wack, you can hold one side, (or end) against a flat surface and put pressure on the opposite side or end. Get it back level, then place the heavy weight on it until the glue dries. Then it will stay level.

cchoganjr


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Precise cut ends and a tool: a "right angle clamp". (Don't know how that translates into English...)










The right angle clamp ensures the corner to be right angle. A pretty useful tool. 









You need a good woodworking machinery to get the ends precisely cutted into right angle.

Edit: Ah: corner clamp it is. See: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stanley-083...=1406643137&sr=8-1&keywords=right+angle+clamp


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you don't want to _buy _a corner clamp, you can make one from a piece of plywood ...








photo credit

... and use regular clamps fit to the jig notches and the sides of the hive body.


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## timduvall (Apr 11, 2014)

i can buy a 1x8x8 pine board at Lowes for $7 which makes one 8 frame medium box. If you have a place that can deliver an unassembled medium super to my door for that, please let me know. I haven't had any luck finding them.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

YUP I hear ya...and once I get the bugs worked out, I can actually make $7 hive boxes.....this is where I bu all my lumber...


timduvall said:


> i can buy a 1x8x8 pine board at Lowes for $7 which makes one 8 frame medium box. If you have a place that can deliver an unassembled medium super to my door for that, please let me know. I haven't had any luck finding them.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

You mean to tell me I spent $168 on a Bosch 1594K 6.5 Amp 3-1/4-Inch Planer Kit last night and I just removed the rocker with your 1x2 wood corner tip!!! Brilliant....I think I'll still keep the planer. The box creaked and cracked but I can live with these now. The finger joints, nails and Titebond III makes for overkill on these hive boxes though in the end they could be holding 60 pounds of the good stuff! THANKS!!!


Michael Bush said:


> > IS THEE A RULE OF THUMB FOR MECAHNICALLY REMOVING OR ALLEVIATING THE ROCKER AFTER THE FACT? I also like that corner bracket thingy...
> 
> Lay a 1x2 on the floor. Set the box with the corners that need to come up diagonally on the 1x2. Stand on the opposite corners (the ones not supported by the 1x2).


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## gjt (Jul 24, 2014)

I used to have boxes made from wedge/v-groove tongue-and-groove planks (tongue up) instead of flat planks. Always sat well even if a bit off.



vdotmatrix said:


> I go through a lot of work to make an 8-frame medium hives. I cut box joints , glue these guys up then shoot small nails in to them. When I place them on top of each other, I will get the dreaded ROCKER.
> 
> Looking at it from above I will put a square in each corner and they are square.....but then in the end I get the rocker; This is more than aggravating since I cut the hand holds into each board.
> 
> ...


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

timduvall said:


> i can buy a 1x8x8 pine board at Lowes for $7 which makes one 8 frame medium box. If you have a place that can deliver an unassembled medium super to my door for that, please let me know. I haven't had any luck finding them.


I can have them delivered for 2 dollars more. Maybe if I didnt have the rest of the things I need to do to keep up with the farm, and I had the equipment, I would consider it a good deal, however, my time, what free I have is of far more value than the 2 dollars per box I can save. I do envy yall that have the time, I would love to make all my equipment, however that is not a reality for me. Good Luck. G


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Try pricing boxes in bulk (at least a pallet load) shipped by truck on a pallet. I've been buying them from Miller Bee Supply with no pilot holes for nails (I staple them with a crown stapler) no hand holds on the sides (mine are up against each other and I can't reach the sides, plus they are warmer and cheaper that way) straight run. I've also priced them at Western Bee Supply. They were slightly cheaper, but not quite as fast and friendly (not saying they were not friendly... just comparatively). Both were close to the same. I don't have the numbers in front of me right now but I wouldn't even attempt to build them for what it costs me for lumber and the effort. What equipment I build is because I can't buy it... and that happens often enough...


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## timduvall (Apr 11, 2014)

Where are you getting these from?


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## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >For those of you who make your own equipment, what am I not doing?
> 
> Put a concrete block on the lid. After the bees have it all glued together it won't rock anymore...


This. Works for me. Eventually the weight should mate it together fine over time.


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## Brian C (Nov 12, 2013)

For those of you in south western pa I get a 1x8x6 for 2.50 which is a 8 frame medium plus some time away from the " family" , at busy beaver. With membership card for 1$.


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## Brian C (Nov 12, 2013)

For me though table saw time is therapy


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I buy 50 at a time from Dadant in Paris. I buy commercial grade and I pickup from their warehouse. They cost $8.95 ready to assemble and I don't pay tax since it is ag. A 1x8x8 at Lowes here is $10.23 plus tax. Then add labor, blades, electricity, etc. For me, tops and bottoms are worth making, not boxes or frames.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

There are a lot of people that can't get free wood (like me) or cheaply like others or have tools to use or the skills to use them or time or inclination or knowledge to make their own boxes. I think we all know that by now. We learn this every time someone asks a woodworking question and gets told they should buy equipment.


Wayne


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## Silverbackotter (Feb 23, 2013)

Take a hand plane to the high corners, that is what I do. You can buy one for ~$20. 

Hank


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

yeah that's why I bought that bosch plane to be able to uniformly remove material if I went that route...thanks!!!


Silverbackotter said:


> Take a hand plane to the high corners, that is what I do. You can buy one for ~$20.
> 
> Hank


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

I use simple box butt joints cut on the table saw.

I use a ratchet clamp with 4 corner brackets that hold the box in the middle.

http://www.menards.com/main/tools-h...ce-ratcheting-band-clamp/p-1487907-c-9135.htm

I also use 4 90degree clips on the top of the box to hold and square the boxes while I drill and screw them. I predrill holes and use 2 1/2" coated screws to pull everything tight. I assemble all on a good level table.

With my system you can pull some of the warp out of boards and still make a box that does not rock. It takes a little work, but with the crappy pine I get from local vendors, it takes some work. The air dry cedar I use on my display boxes are easier, boards are in better shape.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

that is so cool!


jdmidwest said:


> I use simple box butt joints cut on the table saw.
> 
> I use a ratchet clamp with 4 corner brackets that hold the box in the middle.
> 
> ...


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I make all of my own non-commercially-available boxes, either from pallet wood or scaffolding planks.

The most challenging of them is the Russian 'Alpine' Hive which can be comprised of as many as 12 x 108mm high boxes - now that's a lot of boxes on boxes, and anything less than zero rocker between them is going to cause problems.

So I made a 'box-fettler' - which is basically a thicknesser using a sledge-mounted router sliding over precisely-equal-height runners. Now - even when using slightly twisted timber - rocker has become a thing of the past.

But - it's still a helluva lot more work than making Long Hives ...

LJ


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is a photo example of a 'sledge-mounted router' or router sled as they are sometimes called:








Photo credit

Even if you have a planer, a router sled like this can be used to surface pieces of wood that are larger than what will fit through your planer. 

.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

That's right - that's the basic setup ...

So in order to trim various boxes of up to 9" in height, I then made several 4-sided frames to fit onto those rails, and secured to them by quick-release catches.

The drill is then (with the frame off), to place the box to be trimmed onto the bed, with the edge displaying least rocker downwards. Shim under the box to remove the rocker, and tack both the box and shims in place with a hot glue gun.

Attach the frame and router the box top edge until it is uniformly flat. Remove the frame, cut through the plastic tacks with a chisel, and clean-off the bed.

Then reverse the box, tack again, frame on, and router the other edge. Job done.

LJ


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Flat, straight lumber cut perfectly square and with finger joints cut evenly will come out square and flat every time. Every bit of warp, twist (the worst!) or out of square shows up as "rockers". I've made my share of them, and am slowly learning how to avoid it.

First, you MUST set the table of your table saw dead square to the blade. Requires some twiddling around with the attachment of the table to the frame or the motor mount, but I've never seen one from the factory dead square, and used is worse. 

once the blade is perfectly square to the guide slots for the miter in the table, you MUST set the miter dead square to the blade. This will never be at "zero" on the degree scale. Better quality miters have an adjustable stop so you can set them repeatedly dead square. Check with a known good square with the slide of the square set on the surface of the blade. Check occasionally, most of them will creep in use, too. 

Then verify that your fence is dead straight and square before you cut. Twisted fences aren't all that uncommon, but you can fix that problem by attaching a sacrificial fence with countersunk screws deep enough to avoid the jointer knives and joint it flat, then adjust so it stays square. A big pain, but a bad fence will prevent any table saw from cutting well.

then, every time you use the saw, verify that the blade is exactly perpendicular to the top of the table before you cut anything. That can creep too!

I have started jointing one edge of the board as square as possible, then running that side down the fence when cutting to width. This will give you a board with both sides parallel and as square as you are going to get. Cut cup side down, they rock cup side up.

Make a jig to cut all the board to the proper lenght, too.

Finally, when cutting finger joints, you MUST verifiy that your jig is exactly square both ways, and that it does not flex in use. Check every couple boards, my miter will creep when cutting box joints due to the pressure necessary to shove end grain through a 3/4" dado set. If the jig shifts out of square, the angle on the fingers will cause the box to come out a "rocker" with two corners high. Check as you cut, it's worth the time.

I have also taken to gluing the box joints, but only installing a couple nails per corner. I check for square and flat, adjust as necessary, then nail the box up. If you are careful, you can compensate somewhat for off angle joints, the two or four nails per corner allow you to rack the box over a strip of wood but will still hold whatever adjustments you make. CAreful nailing from there out will keep the box square and flat.

Avoid any wood with a twist down the board, however minor. Twisted board ALWAYS make funky boxes, and it's pretty much impossible to get the ends actually at a true 90 degree angle to the rest of the board. Box joint fingers will be strange, too. Be very pickly about flat, straight wood, it will save you endlessheadaches.

Peter


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

This is the post I was waiting for, no offense to anyone else-thanks you!


psfred said:


> Flat, straight lumber cut perfectly square and with finger joints cut evenly will come out square and flat every time. Every bit of warp, twist (the worst!) or out of square shows up as "rockers". I've made my share of them, and am slowly learning how to avoid it.
> 
> First, you MUST set the table of your table saw dead square to the blade. Requires some twiddling around with the attachment of the table to the frame or the motor mount, but I've never seen one from the factory dead square, and used is worse.
> 
> ...


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

And finally, the bees don't care one way or the other if it rocks.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

I know the bees don't give a rip about frames boxes that rock. but the bees will fill the gaps with boatloads of propolis. and that sucks.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

vdotmatrix said:


> the bees will fill the gaps with boatloads of propolis. and that sucks.


Actually it depends on type of gap, where the gaps are, and how large they are.

I always say, "The best thing you can do to a brand new hive, is, ""Give it a good whooping with a ball peen hammer"". When you look at how bees survive in the wild, with multiple holes, that not only let in air, but, also rain/snow, then, the minor holes/rocking of modern bee boxes are minimal at best. Over the years I have seen some of the best hives for survivability and production, are old hives that do not fit well on the bottom board, do not fit level between boxes, and the top is not necessarily air/water proof. Very often the more closely modern bee boxes resemble natural bee hives the better. A rocking box is not necessarily a bad box for the bees. Just doesn't look good for the producer.

I am with psfred on this one. Good lumber, good measurements, good construction techniques, will help eliminate bad boxes. And, everyone (I know I do), wants to make a nice, perfect box, but, there are times an old worn out box is just better than a new perfect one.

cchoganjr


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

psfred said:


> Flat, straight lumber cut perfectly square and with finger joints cut evenly will come out square and flat every time. Every bit of warp, twist (the worst!) or out of square shows up as "rockers". I've made my share of them, and am slowly learning how to avoid it.
> Avoid any wood with a twist down the board, however minor. Twisted board ALWAYS make funky boxes, and it's pretty much impossible to get the ends actually at a true 90 degree angle to the rest of the board. Box joint fingers will be strange, too. Be very pickly about flat, straight wood, it will save you endlessheadaches.
> 
> Peter


 I would be willing to spend just a little bit more on something other than soft warped pine that would make my boxes nicer...I mean, you only build the box once, one crack at a work of art, then you leave it to the weather and the bees....


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## umchuck (May 22, 2014)

Make sure the bottom edge or top edge of board is straight, if not, when you cut with table saw the slight curve will just be transferred to the finish product, lay board down with one end in your hand and sight down the edges ( not the width of the board, the edge) if edge has a curve to it you have to plane that part of the board to align with the rest of the board. (this will reduce the total width of the board so start a little bigger) then when sawed using the new true edge all edges will be true, the joints on the corners don't have anything to do with a box that rocks when placed on another one, use your square as a straight edge to determine which box has the curvature, hope this helps, (retired carpenter)
rand.


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Precise cut ends and a tool: a "right angle clamp". (Don't know how that translates into English...)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 It can be done with a skilsaw , a piece of plywood , and some straight strips if you're careful and accurate in your setup . I am a master cabinet maker in a former life <Pre economic Obamacide> and a semi-pro machinist now , and the key is to be accurate in your setup and fixturing . Straight flat lumber is almost as important , cupping has been addressed . There are router bits that cut an interlocking miter corner , but they're not cheap and require both a big <1/2" collet> router and an accurate router table <a shaper works better though>- plus of course the means to cut accurate square ends . I'll be building some medium and deep boxes this winter , and I plan to use a simple butt joint with deck screws and Gorilla Glue . Frames will be nailed with an 18ga finish nailer , nail length to suit application . But the whole thing requires accuracy in your cuts <square in two planes> to get great results easily when you get to the assembly phase .


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Terry C said:


> I'll be building some medium and deep boxes this winter , and I plan to use a simple butt joint with deck screws and Gorilla Glue . Frames will be nailed with an 18ga finish nailer , nail length to suit application . But the whole thing requires accuracy in your cuts <square in two planes> to get great results easily when you get to the assembly phase .


 I enjoy making the components for bee hives. The boxes I think I will get so much better at since I will be using my sliding Mitre . I sent off my table saw to have the fence and the saw mated once and for all. The INCRA IBOX box joint jig is great once ya get going with it. I made a hand hold jig from a video on youtube but I want to try and make the one in the DIY section here from Whimpy Hogan. I shoot 18ga brads and Titebond III in to the boxes before I prime and paint. SHA-BAng!


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Some of you are saying it doesn't matter if the boxes rock ?

Well - then try making something like this Russian 'Alpine' Hive (picture taken as 'work in progress' without either top or bottom):










And if there's rock at the bottom, the bees won't propolise those gaps - only those towards the top.

LJ


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

little_john said:


> Some of you are saying it doesn't matter if the boxes rock ?
> 
> Well - then try making something like this Russian 'Alpine' Hive (picture taken as 'work in progress' without either top or bottom):
> 
> ...


 THere wouldn't be any rock, the weight is enough to iron things out...WAIT A MINUTE, now that I think about this, I dont see any rock in my hives because when they are filled out with whatever, honey -pollen-brood- they each weigh a ton....ask my back....


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Very good point.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Plumb, Level, Square. you need to achieve all three. You problem is not square corners. it is plumb sides. You didn't cut the ends of your board square. So now all the sides lean. This results in a bottom and top to your box that is not level.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

psfred said:


> Flat, straight lumber cut perfectly square and with finger joints cut evenly will come out square and flat every time.
> 
> Then verify that your fence is dead straight and square before you cut.
> 
> ...


 First point is dead on. Imagine pieces that are nto cut square on the end. If I lay them on a table and push those and together the board will not be a straight line. They will make a slight V shape. Bending them at the v dos not remove that v shape.

Nailing loosely and then fitting to a flight surface is allowing the joint the give it needs to straighten out the V. This increases the vertical gap at your corner. allowing more moisture to get in that gap. keep that in mind becasue you can take measures to reduce this effect. Just be aware of what you just did. It is a fix but not the most desirable one. cut the board square is preferable.

Trimming off the length of a board is called a truing cut. don't bother if your equipment is not that accurate. But it is a good practice to get into.

Never use a fence to make cross cuts. Use a stop block against the fence to set the length of cut fast and accurate but you don't want the board trapped between a blade and a fence when making the cut. That is just plain bad woodworking practices and advice. If you like your nose in the middle of the front of your face. you may want to just take this one without needing it taught to you.

Otherwise dead on Fred with the problem and various ways to avoid it. You can't cut crooked wood straight. good woodworking starts with material selection. Square means square and you can't do it right without it. Boards do not come form the hardware store with square ends. So make one.

I gave up the fight with a table saw for square cuts. I now have a radial arm saw with a 12 foot table. That is what I make cross cuts with. A table saw is for ripping. But not everyone has a shop with that sort of equipment. The wood does not care. if you don't' get it cut right. it will be a mess at it's best.

Of course you can always just crush it into submission.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >For those of you who make your own equipment, what am I not doing?
> 
> Put a concrete block on the lid. After the bees have it all glued together it won't rock anymore...


I second that. Personally I have plenty of other things to keep my worry muscles occupied than less than precise woodenware.

I occasionally build a stringed musical instrument just to keep it out of my system, but bee boxes are meatball carpentry.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

HA!!! Box joints-nice box joints are a work of art for me.....to each his own!!!!


David LaFerney said:


> I second that. Personally I have plenty of other things to keep my worry muscles occupied than less than precise woodenware.
> 
> I occasionally build a stringed musical instrument just to keep it out of my system, but bee boxes are meatball carpentry.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

vdotmatrix said:


> HA!!! Box joints-nice box joints are a work of art for me.....to each his own!!!!


Sure. I understand that - maybe your woodenware should be in an art gallery. Mine is just going to the apiary - as long as it works for that then it is fulfilling it's purpose for existence.

If it is art woodwork you are after then why not do hand cut dovetails? Cut one joint after work everyday as a stress reliever and by the time you have a hive completely built out you'll be pretty good at it.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

vdot - Please notice the very practical advice given on posts #4, #11, #54, and #74.

I have made my entire apiary on a table saw bought at a garage sale for $25.00, a router bought from a pawn shop for $45.00, and a chop saw that was given to me, a draw knife ($3.00 at the swap meet), a home-made #8 plane, and all of it from scrap wood scrap wood. Buying hives is only for the practicality of speed if you have the cashflow from the business and you need to expand FAST, or you have no carpentry shop. It makes more sense to me to just keep grabbing free wood and stay in the habit of building more equipment than your bees will be needing each year BEFORE IT IS NEEDED, and done on the cheap.

Rocker comes from the tops and bottoms of the boxes not being flat. I make my long sides and short ends in production runs of 100 (that's 50 boxes) square to +/-.010", but over-sized by at least a half inch in width (which translates to box height when assembled), and 1/16" too long. The extra 1/16" in length leaves the fingers protruding by 1/32" on both ends. These "proud" ends of the fingers get belt sanded. 

Now the notches that these fingers fit into are marked square to the bottom edge. The notches are cut on a sled with a dado blade set in the table saw, and then filed to the line, so they are all the same depth, perpendicular to the bottom, and parallel to the notches on the opposite end of the board. GETTING THE NOTCHES CORRECT IS THE KEY TO MAKING THE BOXES SQUARE AND THE INSIDE DIMENSIONS CORRECT.

I dry-assemble them and number the corners 1-1, 2-2,3-3, and 4-4. I then disassemble them and dip the finger joints in Titebond III and assemble them over a solid box that is square and the inside dimensions of the beehive box with pipe clamps, and get those first 16 staples in the box. I then take the clamps off, kick the box assembly jig out of the hive body, and continue stapling with the framing square for a checker. I sometimes have to use a long clamp and corner blocks to square up a box while the glue is still wet. I wipe up the glue and finish stapling.

I then do exactly as snl suggests in post #11 - I saw the entire box on the table saw "rolling" it, until the bottom is 9 5/8" and FLAT AS @#$%!

Hope this helps.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

you are missing my point, if I even have one....it is worth doing it is worth doing and gleening some satisfaction from your work. I love my IBOX, it make beautiful box /finger joints. Now you are hedgeing on the ridiculous with handcut dovetails-HAHA-I guess.....playing in my workshop is plenty fun for me!!


David LaFerney said:


> Sure. I understand that - maybe your woodenware should be in an art gallery. Mine is just going to the apiary - as long as it works for that then it is fulfilling it's purpose for existence.
> 
> If it is art woodwork you are after then why not do hand cut dovetails? Cut one joint after work everyday as a stress reliever and by the time you have a hive completely built out you'll be pretty good at it.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Yeah, man, this has been a very practical post for me and I have gotten a lot of great tips for success in this endeavor. I hear ya...I do somethings on a budget ( on the cheap) but as far as any techincal craft or thing like that , I usually buy the latest and the greatest within my means, I like doing things on the cheap sometimes but the time it takes to make things look or feel factory is more thant you are saving unless I really have to...sometimes that's the way it is...In the long run, things done right the first time saves time and money. This is why I wanted to know what most of you did to make accurate woodenware and I have noted your entries for future reference and I am most appreciative.


kilocharlie said:


> vdot - Please notice the very practical advice given on posts #4, #11, #54, and #74.
> 
> I have made my entire apiary on a table saw bought at a garage sale for $25.00, a router bought from a pawn shop for $45.00, and a chop saw that was given to me, a draw knife ($3.00 at the swap meet), a home-made #8 plane, and all of it from scrap wood scrap wood. Buying hives is only for the practicality of speed if you have the cashflow from the business and you need to expand FAST, or you have no carpentry shop. It makes more sense to me to just keep grabbing free wood and stay in the habit of building more equipment than your bees will be needing each year BEFORE IT IS NEEDED, and done on the cheap.
> 
> ...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When I was doing rough carpentry, the old carpenter, who I learned a lot of wisdom from, used to say, "We aren't building pianos..." It's the same with bee hives...


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

vdotmatrix said:


> I know the bees don't give a rip about frames boxes that rock. but the bees will fill the gaps with boatloads of propolis. and that sucks.


Actually, I prefer it. I live in SHB territory and my bees use propolis extensively. If the boxes are gapped a bit (rocking) that gives me a place to force my hive tool into to break the boxes apart. They are going to be stuck together anyway, having a nice pry point makes it easier.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

vdotmatrix said:


> you are missing my point, if I even have one....it is worth doing it is worth doing and gleening some satisfaction from your work. I love my IBOX, it make beautiful box /finger joints. Now you are hedgeing on the ridiculous with handcut dovetails-HAHA-I guess.....playing in my workshop is plenty fun for me!!


Actually I'm pretty sure I do get your point. Sometimes I do woodwork for the sake of making something which is an expression of craftsmanship - usually gifts for my family which I hope will be handed down as heirlooms - painstakenly made with all of the skill I can muster. I get a great deal of satisfaction out of that.

Woodenware just isn't that for me - I have no problem with anyone else seeing it however they want to though.

Hand cut dovetails are not rediculous though. Once you learn to do them you can make beautiful, unique and very strong joints pretty quickly. 

I actually have some bee boxes with router cut dovetail joints - very strong. But I only did them because I already had the jig set up.


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