# Final Year Student Redesigning the Beehive



## AmericasBeekeeper

Welcome Sarah!


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## SarahHep13

Thank you!

It may also be worth adding that my family also keep bees, so I do have some knowledge and experience (although limited!), however I need to obtain information from a much wider range of beekeepers for my decisions to be justified


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## sqkcrk

Welcome Sarah. Thanks for the opportunity to interact w/ your project. I don't see the correlation between hive design and colony health.

I would find it interesting if you designed a 21st Century Hive and it came to look just like what we already have. That would be something.

As a Commercial Beekeeper, conventional Langstroth Hives design works well for both bees and beekeepers. Other designs work well for those who choose them. Or, w/ experience, they may find that they don't work that well for them and changes in style/design occur for those individuals. As we can see by those different hive designs currently in use there is no one size fits all.

Best of luck w/ your project. Please let us know how it goes. Thanks.


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## SarahHep13

The brief primarily suggested designing to prevent CCD, but with a number of possible causes this was very much impossible. So I tweaked it slightly. 
I know many beekeepers lose colonies over winter, presumably due to the weather, and so I plan to base my redesign on helping the bees regulate temperature and moisture (in both summer and winter), however there are so many other factors to consider it is proving rather difficult!
Hence a questionnaire to see where other beekeepers feel the main problems lie, hopefully to give my project a little more direction! As a materials engineering student, I think my supervisor wants to see a change in materials to solve the problem but this may just not be feasible, as I believe the hive should mimic a natural hive as closely as possible!
But the hive isn't just for me, which is why answering the questionnaire is so helpful!


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## sqkcrk

Gladly did answer the survey.

Keep in mind that cold temps don't kill bees, lack of ventilation does. So, I would suggest that you not design a heat source into your hive design.


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## SarahHep13

Thank you!
Yes, my supervisor suggested a heat source but I disagreed as I think the bees should be left to regulate temperature themselves. So provide enough insulation but also enough ventilation for them to propolise closed or open up as they wish


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## Colleen O.

There is another hive in use (in Slovenia) that I didn't see on your list that you might want to check out. It has some interesting attributes. Search the equipment forum (or Google) for Slovenian AZ hive.


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## mgolden

Would suggest you not prejudge any suggestions, but just a suggestion.

Ideal temp inside the hive is 5C as bees can move to fresh stores, but consume minimum stores. Search "The Biology and Management of Colonies in Winter" done at Beaverlodge Research Farm. This a constant temp to strive to keep the interior at.

Adequate but minimal ventilation is also critical. Amount of air flow a varies with the hunidity of the local climate so you need a variable sized inlet to have a universal hive. Using 2 1/2 wode by 3/8 high inlets and our cold temps are dry.

The bees themselves in maintaining the cluster are a heat source inside the hive. I have 2 inch insulation on five exteriors and 1/2 inch on south exposure. Black building paper over that. Inside temp will run 20 - 30 F warmer than exterior temp. About the coldest I have seen interior at the top is 30F in cold (-15F). Critical to have more insulation on top than sides or quilt boxes on top so any excess moisture does not drip on the cluster. 

Bee cluster itself is a heat source and put four of them together and it's better. 

A styrofoam wall is a start and there are commercial styrofoam hives on the market. Styrofoam insulates in the winter and insulates from excess heat in the summer. Needs to be durable as well to sunlight and use.

ANd some commercial bee keepers move hive into a controlled climate that avoids the labor of wrapping and unwrapping and provides close to 5C temp.

Cost is significant factor. Needs to be a profit and living for the bee keeper.

Need a cost effective, light, durable hive with adequate variable ventialtion that bees can maintain temp at 5C to 40C with minimal energy expenditure by the bees or other heat sources.


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## Ian

Re designing the hive isnt as easy as you may think.
dont forget about all the related equipment that has been designed around this box measure 
foundation, frames, excluder, extractors . . .


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## Ian

look into beekeeping project from the Ukraine or Russia, even areas of Sweden and so on. Many there do not use the same equipment we do, slightly different.
look into why the equipment is different and see if it makes any difference. There may be a reason why they have developed that type of hive. 
The main reason why we in North America use the same type of hive has alot to do with universality.


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## Daniel Y

I filled out your survey and wish you the best of luck.


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## Beregondo

sqkcrk said:


> Gladly did answer the survey.
> 
> Keep in mind that cold temps don't kill bees, lack of ventilation does. So, I would suggest that you not design a heat source into your hive design.


Oddly enough, though it does sometimes happen in warm temps, that lack of ventilation doesn't seem to kill many bees until they are exposed to cold temps....


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## mgolden

Need to able to put them on pallets in 4 or 6 hive per pallet.

And them robust to stack pallets of hives.

Also need to retain moisture collecting and insulating benefits of current inner cover and outer cover design for colder climates.

Suspect having the flexibility and capability to add a syrup feeder(gallon capacity) on outer cover is a very useful feature.


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## SarahHep13

Thank you all for your suggestions 

I promise I am taking them all on board and you are opening my eyes to other hive types used around the world, and for that i am grateful.
I appreciate there are many different hive types already out there already, so I aim to take some of the best features and combine them to produce a better solution that is in keeping with equipment already used.

Ian, you're telling me! There is SO much to consider, both in the upkeep of the hive but also the manufacture and standardisation, I feel like I need to spend a lifetime on this project, let alone half a year!

How does everyone feel about taking it right back to basics? Almost like using a skep (without the killing of bees to extract the honey of course!)? What if there was a way of taking this idea but adapting it so it was more manageable?

Just throwing ideas around as initial concepts!


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## AmericasBeekeeper

The natural shape of a hive is an ellipsoid. With current materials and technology that is much easier to produce than the boxes of the past 150 years plus.


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## gone2seed

My dream hive would have an internal camera ,microphone,and perhaps a built in scale as well.
One piece hive with sliding drawers??Someone has probably done that already.
Where is Acebird when he is needed?


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## Ian

SarahHep13 said:


> Thank you all for your suggestions
> 
> 
> Ian, you're telling me! There is SO much to consider,



woops, hope my comment didnt get across the wrong way

I appreciate the time your putting into this project, I think we all have thought the same thing
just telling you some of the initial problems with re designing the box design we currently have going here.

So take it right back to the skep,

Now wouldnt it be nice if we could integrate movable frames?
We also need a durable, yet cost effective structure to put the frames in,
now, what size of box makes most sence? Perhaps the size which the bees can work freely in, and yet not to confined,
now how do we manage that hive size so that we can easily expand it during times of growth?
also how do we manage that hive size so that we can easily manage it during winter?
also how do we manage that hive to be able to harvest the surplus honey off it yet not interfere with the actual production nest?

just few of my thoughts, and all my conclusion lead to the current hive configuration we now have
simple, basic and universal 
The dimensions really mean nothing in the whole scheme of things. The current design made 100 or so years ago works like a charm even today

cheers


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## sqkcrk

Beregondo said:


> Oddly enough, though it does sometimes happen in warm temps, that lack of ventilation doesn't seem to kill many bees until they are exposed to cold temps....


I have seen hives laying on their side all thru a NY Winter far North of Elmira whose colony survived quite well. That is one illustration of cold not killing bees. As long as a colony has access to food and has enuf ventilation subzero temperatures won't kill that colony.

Don't we have the hive we have because of the availability of the materials which they are made of? Maybe that would be a good peice of information for you to have. How did LLLangstroth come up w/ his design and why did it come to look as it does today.

One thing I notice is the desire for smaller parts and hives in smaller/lighter equipment. The "new" desire for Medium Depth Nucs for example.


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## Ian

sqkcrk said:


> The "new" desire for Medium Depth Nucs for example.



Not this beekeeper, 
here mediums means more work


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## sqkcrk

I know. Me too. But I see a lot of requests for medium nucs on beesource and other places too. That's why I mentioned it.


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## Ian

id see warranting its use in areas where they dont pull full boxes of honey on their flows. For sure the way to go,


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## MethowKraig

I've often thought about how the modern beekeeper manages colonies upside down from the natural way. In the wild, a swarm establishes itself in a cavity and starts at the top and builds downward. As nectar comes in, the bees keep building downward and forcing the queen to lay below the stored honey above. The instinct to swarm comes when one of two events occur; either the entire cavity is filled and thus what we call "plugged out" or the nectar flow is so extreme the ability of the nurse bees to build new comb is overwhelmed and all the bottom comb, which the queen would normally lay in, is plugged out with nectar.

Not sure what the practical implications of this are but seems like bottom supering, below the brood chamber, would be closer to the bee's natural instinct.


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## oblib

MethowKraig said:


> Not sure what the practical implications of this are but seems like bottom supering, below the brood chamber, would be closer to the bee's natural instinct.


The practical implication is that it's a heck of a lot more work. That is why it is seldom done that way. That and the fact most beekeepers don't want their honey where brood was ever raised and if you are bottom supering to keep letting the colony move down naturally then the honey is coming into what was once brood comb.


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## MethowKraig

I've kept bees for many years, at one time commercially. I certainly understand the benefits of our system for the beekeeper. That's why I say there may be no practical implications. 

But I still wonder what a controlled study of bottom supering would show in regard to swarming, honey production, wintering, etc.


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## Ian

I dont know MethowKraig, I understand what your saying in having the bees build down, as that is how I manage my early spring hives
but the hive does not utilize the entire bottom box during that time. That is why I will reverse my chambers in some years and provide that extra space for the queen up above. In the spring and early summer she wants to move up,


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## samoadc

What is an ellipsoid shape?


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## sqkcrk

Tear drop shaped.


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## jdawdy

Very interesting project, and a good opportunity to "think outside the box"...no pun intended! 

I'd give a lot of thought to how bees build their hives in nature- for example, bee trees. I've always thought it should tell us something that a bee's preferred domicile is the inside of a tree with "walls" that are many inches thick, as opposed to the thin walls of a langstroth or TBH. It would be an accomplishment to find a better balance between the protection that nature provides and the needs of the beekeeper.


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## samoadc

Thanks for the tear drop shape information. I would never have guessed it. I was thinking maybe something like a half circle, like a bowl turned upside down. I have often just sort of let the bees do what they wanted to and assumed they knew more about what they were doing than and I did and becides they would probably prefer I didn't mess with them. Due to expense I have only bought 20 frames and foundation. zI plan on making the boxes as I did 30 years ago. Due to heat in summer and only wanting a couple hives I will plan on permanent locations with the ability to use a lot of insulation to help keep things not so hot. The bees were living in an irrigation water control valve plastic box in the ground with the top cover at ground level. Again thank you very much.


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## Daniel Y

Ellipsoid is another way of saying circular. this shows and example of a shape that would be considered ellipsoid.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipsoid.html
A ball woudl also considering the definition ellipsoid is.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ellipsoid
(mathematics) a surface, all of whose cross sections are elliptic or circular (includes the sphere)


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## sqkcrk

Abejas y miel, which one can find on Facebook, illustrates some pretty interesting beehives. Some which I have never seen before. Check them out.

One photo I came across looks like a HUGE acorn hanging from a timber. It's made out of material similar to what skeps are made from. I have no idea how it is managed. Maybe it is worked in a fashion similar to skeps. Or log gums.


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## Saltybee

The shape of comb built in a top bar without foundation is a slightly fat half football shape that grows fairly uniformly in length and depth until it runs out of space in one direction. For heat and material flow I suspect bees would prefer a similarly shaped top bar as the half football. Bowed rather than flat. Just the shape beekeepers would hate to build.

But then maybe the trouble with top bar hives in cold climates is they need to be flipped over! Who says frames have to hang down and not stand up.

All those bees who choose walls and floors to swarm into have it wrong, frames would never be straight or removable in there.


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