# Ask a Treatment-Free Beekeeper a Question!



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I would love to be treatment free, with man made chemicals at least.

So how do you keep mites in check? What do you do about foul brood, and other diseases? These may have been discussed in your previous thread but I didn't know about it until I read this one.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Brad, the simple answer is that the bees keep the mites in check. There are a number of mechanisms by which this occurs. The main one is the VSH trait that is so often mentioned, however, survivor feral hives have broadly varying levels of the VSH trait, so there are obviously other traits and mechanisms involved. I do use small cell foundation which a number of people claim helps with mites, however it has been proven in one study and claimed to have been disproved in several others. However, none of those studies looked at the problem under real life conditions.

Other diseases are treated in the same way except American Foul Brood. Should I find any AFB I'll burn the hive in which it is found. Treatments for AFB actually tend to guarantee its return due to killing competing organisms.

I guess you could say the main overall method to compete with these thing is to expand as much as possible so that the disease cannot kill as many hives as are being newly created. I call this Expansion Model Beekeeping. I feel it is far more valuable a skill to know how to efficiently multiply than to be well versed in all the treatments, how and when to use them, the dangers, and etc., only to find them losing their effectiveness after a few years or never having any effectiveness to begin with as the case often is. 

But don't let me give you the idea that loads of hives are dying all the time. The Bee Informed National Survey has concluded that treated hives are lost at a rate of 3 in 10 per year while untreated hives are lost at a rate of 4 in 10. So it's not exactly a massacre every year. And in my experience, the effect is lessened in successive years.


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## pndwind (Feb 17, 2013)

What do you feel is the fastest and best method to expand the number of hives?


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## jim81147 (Feb 18, 2013)

Did you really mean to say " expand as much as possible" or did you mean as much as possible while still leaving the parent colony strong? Sorry if that is an obvious question to those of you who are more experienced but in my readings I seem to find a train of thought that says its strictly a numbers game and then differing thoughts about colony strength being more important than numbers . I guess in an ideal world we would strive for both.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Let me explain what I find the most efficient. I find grafting into queen cups, raising those cups in queenright cell builders, mating those queens in queen castles (using full size brood frames), and building those nucs up into larger hives, to be the most efficient.

Now I won't say this is necessarily the fastest. There is a limit on the number of cells a queenright hive will raise at one time. I've gotten 17 twice. But it does allow you to use that hive for other things, for honey or a source of brood for mating nucs. So that's why I find it efficient. Other methods can produce much larger numbers of cells, but may cause a bit more disruption. But I doubt a smallholder beekeeper will have the equipment to expand that quickly, so I feel a number in the teens per batch is more than adequate.

One qualifying factor is my location. I have a relatively short beekeeping season. Others have a much longer season, during which time one might use queen castles to produce walkaway splits using single frames of brood. Better or worse? I don't know. Beekeeping is local.

Ultimately though, my message is don't be afraid of grafting. It is an efficient method of producing queens, and do the right thing with those queens and you have an efficient way to produce nucs and nucs become full sized colonies.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

One other note: Keeping hives as nucs, even for a time, gives them fantastical abilities to draw comb and expand. I believe there is something that has to do with hive size and a drive for the bees to be ready for winter. But smaller hives are incredibly capable of expansion.


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

Solomon Parker said:


> One other note: Keeping hives as nucs, even for a time, gives them fantastical abilities to draw comb and expand. I believe there is something that has to do with hive size and a drive for the bees to be ready for winter. But smaller hives are incredibly capable of expansion.


I am seeing that one already. I installed 2 nucs this spring, one in an 8 frame hive and the other in a 10 frame hive. The 8 frame is filled to capacity with 2 deeps now and the 10 frame is still trying to figure out what to do with the 10 frame box above it. Both nucs came from a supplier that primarily uses 5 frame hives to build his bees. He made mention that the majority of his hives were 5 frame equipment. 

My limited knowledge seems to tend toward smaller hives. It seems to encourage them to prosper.


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## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

i want to be treatment free. i concider treatment free the non use of man made chemicals, the use of a natural product ok. i have heard some people say that dusting bees with suger is a treatment. what do you concider the line between treatment and non treatment ?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

My line (and this is not the line of the forum) is treatment. If you're doing something to 'help' the bees with disease, be it mites, bacteria, viruses, or fungi, it's a treatment and I don't use it. If you call it a treatment, it is a treatment. There are no "treatment-free treatments." That is a quote that appeared once in this forum.

I use no substances of any kind. I use no special equipment like screened bottom boards or beetle traps. I use no manipulations like brood breaks or systematic splitting.

I do use small cell foundation. However, that is in an attempt to return to a _more_ natural cell size and to decrease human induced stress. You won't see me touting small cell foundation as the panacea solution to problems.

In short, I keep bees like these problems don't exist. That's not to say I am ignorant about them, it is to say I ignore them. That is the bees' job.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> But don't let me give you the idea that loads of hives are dying all the time. The Bee Informed National Survey has concluded that treated hives are lost at a rate of 3 in 10 per year while untreated hives are lost at a rate of 4 in 10. So it's not exactly a massacre every year. And in my experience, the effect is lessened in successive years.


Is there any data on that which weights for beekeeper experience?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> My line (and this is not the line of the forum) is treatment. If you're doing something to 'help' the bees with disease, be it mites, bacteria, viruses, or fungi, it's a treatment and I don't use it. If you call it a treatment, it is a treatment. There are no "treatment-free treatments." That is a quote that appeared once in this forum.
> 
> I use no substances of any kind. I use no special equipment like screened bottom boards or beetle traps. I use no manipulations like brood breaks or systematic splitting.
> 
> ...


So, other than small cell and making increase from survivors what are your cultural practices? Do you produce any economically significant hive products? By that I mean does your bee keeping run in the black or the red - if in the red, do you foresee a time when that will change? Is it even a goal? Not trying to be difficult, just asking.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

It may exist, but I have not seen it.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> Is there any data on that which weights for beekeeper experience?


There is, if I recall correctly, though it is indirect. I think they have data for number of hives kept for those who treat and those who don't, and you might infer that more hives mean more experience. My impression is that treatment free beekeepers are in general less experienced than those who treat. It would be very interesting to compare treating with non-treating while controlling for experience. My suspicion is that winter losses might start to skew the other way.

http://beeinformed.org/2012/03/bee-informed-national-management-survey-2010-2011


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

David LaFerney said:


> So, other than small cell and making increase from survivors what are your cultural practices?


That's a pretty broad question. I do lots of things. I try to put new foundation in every hive every year. I insert frames, either drawn or foundation in the brood nest in the spring. I don't use smoke unless I perceive that the bees are not happy. I probably don't inspect as often as some people. I don't really inspect much at all from about the end of June until September. There's a dearth, the bees are mean, they keep a small (less than soccer ball size) broodnest and try not to starve to death. I use upper entrances on most hives. 

Should I use the Housel Positioning word? :lpf: 

If you're looking for something more specific, I'd be happy to address it.




David LaFerney said:


> Do you produce any economically significant hive products? By that I mean does your bee keeping run in the black or the red - if in the red, do you foresee a time when that will change? Is it even a goal?


I produce honey, wax, and nucs. Last year I made more than I spent. I plan on doing it again this year, but I'm also buying a bunch of stuff too because I'm moving into mediums, so it might be a wash. It is a goal. It's how I pay for equipment these days, and I also use it to fund my little renewable energy projects.




David LaFerney said:


> Not trying to be difficult, just asking.


That's what I'm here for. If you were being difficult, I would not be so ready to answer.


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

If I were to cut out a 5 year old feral, untreated hive, could I assume that the bees display some level of the VSH trait?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

JStinson, I feel that you could assume that they display some level of VSH trait, but don't assume that level is high. Tested ferals have shown wide variations in expression of the VSH trait. That's why I don't test for VSH nor rely upon it. There are numerous mechanisms by which bees are able to cope with varroa and I want them to figure it out without too much interference and unnecessary shallowing of the gene pool.

I just started a thread yesterday where I opened the brood from a hive I was working on. This is a hive in which I have never seen the tell-tale signs of chewed out brood or anything like that. Yet, they live and they are doing pretty well. I had a hive in the past that was literally crawling with mites, yet it survived the winter and went on to be a moderately productive nuc in drawing comb. So these are a couple of reasons why I like to let the bees worry about it.


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## SRBrooks (Jun 24, 2012)

Dear Solomon:

If a hive has a laying worker, will they automatically reject a new queen?

Also, I can't find an answer anywhere to this: If a bee is injured, does the bee's body have the ability to heal itself? Is a dent or puncture to the chitin, for example, a death sentence? 

Sondra


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Sondra,

I wouldn't say they would automatically reject a new queen but there's a pretty good chance. Give them a frame or two of open brood to change the character of the pheromones in the hive. Michael Bush's solution for queen problems is adding a frame of open brood every week until the problem corrects itself.

If there's enough force to dent hardened chitin, there's probably enough force to do significant permanent damage.  For a worker, who cares, but you're probably asking about a queen. I'll relate this: Last year, I was checking to see if my queens had hatched in their nucs and I smooshed one enough to dent her abdomen. It did not kill her immediately, but she did not survive. She was still soft.

Bees don't heal like we do. Most creatures with exoskeletons need to shed their skeleton to heal. Bees cannot shed. I would postulate that any significant amount of damage will result in death before long. I could be wrong, but that's my hypothesis.


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

Mr. Parker,

I am brand new and have just installed a standard GA package into a top bar hive. In total, my apiary has a hex hive, 2 top bar hives, and 2 Langs. (check out my photo album in my profile if you want to see the setup) The other 4 hives should all get filled with feral local bees that I have arranged to remove or trap out.

#1 - Since the GA package presumably came from 5.4 mm foundation, how long will it take for them to regress to ~4.9? Should I checkerboard the brood nest any this first year to allow them to regress more, or leave it alone until next year?

#2 - My hives are in ski country WV, at around 2900' elevation. Am I accurate in assuming their chances of survival are low, regardless of my practices?

#3 - My package is drawing comb like a machine, and have been in the hive for 1 week today. When should I expect to see eggs and brood? (I haven't really looked yet. The only thing done was to refill the feeder with syrup, and make sure the first couple of combs they started were straight and on the bars.)

Thank you for offering you time and knowledge. 

John


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Cub said:


> #1 - Since the GA package presumably came from 5.4 mm foundation, how long will it take for them to regress to ~4.9? Should I checkerboard the brood nest any this first year to allow them to regress more, or leave it alone until next year?


I don't know how long it will take. Keep at it though, if that's your goal. It depends on how you do it and local conditions. I wouldn't worry so much about 'checkerboarding' so much, just add two or so frames of foundation in the middle of the brood nest each spring and work the larger stuff out and up.




Cub said:


> #2 - My hives are in ski country WV, at around 2900' elevation. Am I accurate in assuming their chances of survival are low, regardless of my practices?


Not necessarily. Georgia bees might have problems wintering but you won't know until it happens. From my own experience, I can say that Georgia bees don't winter well if you get temps down below 10 degrees. That's what I happened to me.




Cub said:


> #3 - My package is drawing comb like a machine, and have been in the hive for 1 week today. When should I expect to see eggs and brood? (I haven't really looked yet. The only thing done was to refill the feeder with syrup, and make sure the first couple of combs they started were straight and on the bars.)


A queen in a hive like that will start laying eggs when the cells are about half depth or so. If there is much comb of that depth, she will have already begun to lay. Probably.


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

Thanks for the quick answers. I have a couple more!

#1 All of my top bars are 1 3/8" wide. Right now they have 8 bars accessible because of the follower board. When I insert new bars (that is what I meant earlier, rather than 'checkerboarding) in the brood nest, would inserting 1 1/4" bars help with the regression? Or should I stick with the 1 3/8" size?

#2 This past weekend, we noticed some German black bees AMM on a very old apple tree blooming. They were extremely small, compared to the Italians that came in the package. I have decided there will be no resting until I find this hive and capture them for my apiary. If/when I can hive them, should I start them out on 1 1/4" bars, 1 3/8" bars, or would you advise putting them in a foundationless Lang? I have both available and in the need of some bees to occupy them. 

Also, it gets down to 10 degrees and lower on a regular basis where the hives are.

Thanks,
John


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

1.) It might, I can't say for sure, that's out of my area of expertise. I'm currently debating if I should continue with the narrow frame paradigm. Michael Bush definitely promotes the idea that narrower frames help with regression.

2.) I'm not one who advises going completely foundationless. I have no problem with people who want to do that, but it's just not utilitarian enough for me. I don't have enough time for the extra vigilance those sorts of things take. Personally, I suggest small cell because it's *more natural* than other larger cell size options available. It's not natural, it's not magic, it's just better. Again, I'm currently debating the utility of the narrow frames.

I am interested about these AMM bees, it's always interesting to hear about things like that.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I've done some experimenting with some of these things.

I've been using narrow brood frames, and I find that it makes it much harder to do inspections. The tight spacing makes it hard to remove frames without rolling bees. So I find I tend to only remove what I have to. Maybe that's a good thing, but I have now begun to cut down the top bars as well, hoping that will make things easier.

I use 8 frame boxes, so I like the fact that I have room for 9. This allows me to split the boxes and make twin 4 frame nuc boxes. Some of what I'm working toward is in keeping with Mike Palmer's nuc-based approach. So the narrow frames allow me to make the same set-up in an 8-frame deep that he's making in a 10 frame deep.

I have used some foundationless frames, some starter strips and some 5.1mm foundation. I like foundation, but I think foundation strips is a good mid-point approach, as it gets things going straight, but still allows the bees to create natural cells beyond that.

A full box of foundationless gets messy...

Adam


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## nhbuckeye (May 8, 2013)

Solomon,

Brand new at this and have really had my eyes opened after having found this TF forum and learning about this philosophy of beekeeping. I have decided that I want to start out being treatment free and learning as much as I can from the experience. They are coming from Rossman and my inquiry to them regarding treatment was as follows:

_ We treat early Spring and late Fall with, Apivar for varroa, Tylan for foul brood, Fumagilin-B for Nosema and Honey-B-Healthy for a stimulant. Also we treat with apple cider vinegar and vegetable oil for small hive beetle._

Knowing what I know now, I would likely not be picking up package bees on Sunday, but would have sought out other local resources in my area for TF bees. Nonetheless, the treated bees are on their way and I intend on learning everything I can.

I am starting out with a 2 deep hive. It has wooden frames with Rite-cell foundation. I have been considering removing the foundation and using popsicle sticks wedged into the top of the frames for a comb guide. 
I am planning on feeding with sugar syrup to start using the Ziploc bag method. I will enclose the bag in an empty deep hive until combs are drawn out.

Prior to all this information I have been learning re: TF I was planning on starting them using all the “standard” techniques to include all the treatment regimens, etc.

I am now somewhat questioning myself and am looking for some feedback as to my attempt to begin being a TF beekeeper with package bees vs. going traditional and seeking out new sources of bees next spring.

Thanks in advance,

Scott


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Scott, you're not the first to have to approach this question in this way! Unfortunately, it is still the case that many people don't know that treatment free is even an option. It is unfortunate but true.

Okay, there is some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that you're starting a marathon with a missing foot. The good news is that there is a small chance you can grow that foot back. Somebody is going to hate me for that one. If you want to go totally treatment free, you're going to have to accept that this particular method of starting (treated package) is probably going to hiccup. This package will more likely than not die this winter. I just want to tell you that right at the beginning because that's about the worst it can get. Still more good news, you can get a lot of value from this endeavor, even if it does die. Number one, you get experience, valuable experience. Number two, you have a hive, and it will have drawn comb which will be pretty well protected due to your climate and ready for next year. Three, you have the opportunity to be more prepared for next year, to do things like catch swarms, find better sources of bees, and not make the mistakes you'll make this year.

Until then, don't treat. Most treatments will leave residues in your comb and especially with foul brood, actually increase the chances of an outbreak in the future. 

Now, maybe you're more ambitious. Maybe you'd like to expand now, split, try to catch a swarm. Then you need to move fast, need more equipment, more research, splitting, feeding, brood breaks, give yourself more chances for the upcoming winter.

So the question is, where do you want to go from here?


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

One additional comment is that if you can find a source of local queens, you could introduce local genetics to you colony and increase your chances of surviving the winter.


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

nhbuckeye said:


> Solomon,
> 
> Brand new at this and have really had my eyes opened after having found this TF forum and learning about this philosophy of beekeeping. I have decided that I want to start out being treatment free and learning as much as I can from the experience. They are coming from Rossman and my inquiry to them regarding treatment was as follows:
> 
> ...


My situation is exactly the same, although I knew from the start local bees were better. I just didn't want to have nothing, if the bee trees or swarms didn't pan out and have to wait til next year to start up.


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## nhbuckeye (May 8, 2013)

> Now, maybe you're more ambitious. Maybe you'd like to expand now, split, try to catch a swarm. Then you need to move fast, need more equipment, more research, splitting, feeding, brood breaks, give yourself more chances for the upcoming winter.
> 
> So the question is, where do you want to go from here?


Yes, I like the way your are challenging my thinking. Thank you for your entire reply. I am feeling even more optimistic about this endeavor now. I will keep in touch. Off to do more research and pondering.

Scott


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## nhbuckeye (May 8, 2013)

Rio, Thanks. That is something that I had given some thought to and will start reaching out to some of the locals and find out what they are doing.


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## nhbuckeye (May 8, 2013)

John,

It is a good feeling to know I am not alone. Thanks. I have read many of your posts and am following your experience as well.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Yes, I'm sorry, I should have mentioned the possibility of requeening. Thanks Dan.

Even then, I'd recommend splitting and putting the new queen with the split. Anything you can do to decrease the chances of losing everything at once. You want something to be able to split from next year. It's looking like 30% of all kept hives in the country were lost last year, probably 40% of untreated ones. So that means, in a single winter, you'd have a 40% chance of losing a single hive, but only a 16% chance of losing both if I'm doing my math correctly.

In comparison, long term treatment-free beekeepers lose far fewer. I know a beekeeper (well known former state inspector etc. etc.) who averages less than 8%. And I personally lost less than 5%. But getting off the ground is rough, and you're pretty far north which doesn't make things easier, especially starting with storebought packages, most of which come from the south.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

One thing I'm constantly hearing, but does not make sense to me, is that if you start with a commercial package you are likely to lose it.

So I'd like opinions from several experienced TF beeks. If the package was requeened with a queen from say, Solomon, in time for all the bees to be replaced before winter, is it still more likely that hive would die, than if the package had come from a TF source.

And if so, why?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I don't buy into it that much either. I've used packages over the years. I will be getting one in a few days for a friend that will be TF. First goal is to get the PF120's drawn out. The particular bees are lower on my list of importance.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm as usual simply reporting my experience. And in my experience, *SOUTHERN* commercial packages do pretty poorly. They are not adapted to the weather conditions, and they have very little if any disease resistance. 

Even *SOUTHERN* treatment-free nucs do pretty poorly. I bought six of them from 2008 to 2010. Only two survived their first winter (both likely swarmed). The other four died with no signs of disease, sizeable clusters, early in the winter, with hives well stocked with honey. They're all dead as of last summer.

If you look at the pictures on my blog and website, you'll notice a nice Brushy Mountain 8-frame setup at the back of my home yard. It has one of those really expensive copper roof garden hive lids.  It was given to me after it was stocked with a *SOUTHERN *commercial package (5 lbs. even) two years ago. It didn't last six months, knocked off at the first sign of winter.

Is there some connection to cell size? I think so, but I don't rely on it as evidence because as evidence it is not widely accepted. What I see pretty consistently (in other words, virtually every beekeeper I know except the one who catches a lot of swarms) is that *SOUTHERN *commercial packages are not a good way to start if one wishes to go treatment free.

One of the strangest arguments I see is "if you go treatment free, you're bees are going to die" but the same person will then post something like "but it's not the fault of the package." I don't see that, and the data doesn't show me that. I see *SOUTHERN *packages of my friends and neighbors dying, and I've had *SOUTHERN* treatment-free small cell nucs die for me. When I did start with packages, they were from less than 300 miles away from a climate very similar to my own. And they had a relatively low loss rate (~20%) considering they went from treated to treatment-free. But when I moved them to a climate with a much colder winter (in other words, I moved north climate wise), I experienced losses.

If someone wants to explain this data alternately, I am as always ready to explore new theories, but until then this is my experience and this is the message I will continue to deliver. Local bees survive better, treatment or no. Southern packages are a poor choice. That is my case.

And I am all for PF-120s, I just bought another 210 of them. However, scientifically, I cannot make any comparisons as I have kept only one standard cell size hive (5.2mm) since I've kept bees. It's dead by the way, but I can't be intellectually honest and draw conclusions from single data points.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I have wondered what percentage of Southern Bee packages are actually Southern bees. When the almond pollination is over, many pollinators head straight for GA where they sell massive excess bees which would no doubt swarm soon. And those bees could come from anywhere..... so I wonder...


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> One thing I'm constantly hearing, but does not make sense to me, is that if you start with a commercial package you are likely to lose it.
> 
> So I'd like opinions from several experienced TF beeks. If the package was requeened with a queen from say, Solomon, in time for all the bees to be replaced before winter, is it still more likely that hive would die, than if the package had come from a TF source.
> 
> And if so, why?


Oldtimer,

I am not saying that my package is doomed for failure or anything of the sort, but am being realistic about the chances of survival. Especially compared to the local feral stock that I am seeking. The climate that the bees are living in has a much harsher winter than what is typical for most of WV, and the elevation is near 3,000'. The bees I purchased came from the south and from an elevation of around 100'. They have also lived through many generations of bees that have a strict treatment regimen in place. The only thing they are getting from me is sugar syrup and, hopefully, regression back to natural size.

Nature has a way of making it somehow, but the gamblers odds on these bees as compared to ones I can find myself in the woods are much smaller.

By the way, I am coming to your 'hood in the fall for a vacation!


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I have had similar experience with southern queens. This last winter I lost 7/8 of my colonies, 5 were headed by supposed resistant queens. It was their second winter and all crashed, most likely due to weakness from mites. This year I am requeening most of my packages and nucs with northern queens, and will raise a couple for nucs that I will try to overwinter. 
Personally I do not think it makes much difference where the package comes from if you re-queen early enough. However I am years away from what I would call experienced, as I have only been doing this for a few years.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

cub's in west virginia, which is relatively south, will have its unique ebbs and flows relative to other parts of the country.

i don't think it's a southern/northern thing, it's about being 'locally adapted' ya'll.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If you hive a package onto pf-120s and remove any Misbuilt comb - so that all subsequent brood cycles are raised in 4.9 comb - at what point are they "small cell bees?"


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

squarepeg said:


> i don't think it's a southern/northern thing, it's about being 'locally adapted' ya'll.


Well if you have no local source, than you pick what is closest to your environment. And for us up north, that isn't southern queens.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i guess that's what i was getting at rio.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

David LaFerney said:


> If you hive a package onto pf-120s and remove any Misbuilt comb - so that all subsequent brood cycles are raised in 4.9 comb - at what point are they "small cell bees?"


I would imagine any bee raised in a 4.9mm diameter cell would be considered a small cell bee. If you have a whole hive like that, I imagine it would be a hive of small cell bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks for the replies, and Cub, you are welcome to look me up when you come to my "hood". 

In Barry's case I know from past discussions he tends to do well whatever type of bee, long as they are set up right comb wise. But for the others, ie people experiencing heavy losses with certain bee types, and Solomon in particular, my question had to do with the effect of requeening, and this didn't get mentioned in many of the replies, please re-read the question & consider the consequences of requeening as I had suggested. Would it change things?


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## nhbuckeye (May 8, 2013)

Solomon and all,

Installed the package today. My bees are now officially off their meds. Not a pretty install however. The package was just a sticky mess. There are so many bees that cannot fly as their wings are coated with the syrup from the can. I really think that over half of the package can't fly. The bees that can fly however were all over the yard coming and going. I am going to check on them in a few days. I do have a ziploc bag if for feeding.

I am sure I am not the only one who has had their package be a big sticky mess. What can I expect?

Also, I have a source now for some overwintered New England queens. I will plan on splitting and requeening the original colony and the split with northern queens.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Come back and tell us how it looks when you inspect.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Personally, if the bees were that bad I would have given them 24 hours to clean up before feeding them.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> I would imagine any bee raised in a 4.9mm diameter cell would be considered a small cell bee. If you have a whole hive like that, I imagine it would be a hive of small cell bees.


Any idea how long before they will build foundationless small cells?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

David LaFerney said:


> Any idea how long before they will build foundationless small cells?


Some will immediately, some never will. That's the trouble with trying to confine things with bees, they don't do things exactly consistently. Every measurement is a range. For instance, when given foundationless frames, my bees pretty consistently draw between 4.9mm to 5.2mm brood comb. That's why I say 4.9mm is _more natural_, not simply natural. It's my position that commonly available cell size foundation (5.2mm+) is larger than the natural range and that 4.9mm is _more natural_, therefore I use it.


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Thanks for the replies, and Cub, you are welcome to look me up when you come to my "hood".
> 
> In Barry's case I know from past discussions he tends to do well whatever type of bee, long as they are set up right comb wise. But for the others, ie people experiencing heavy losses with certain bee types, and Solomon in particular, my question had to do with the effect of requeening, and this didn't get mentioned in many of the replies, please re-read the question & consider the consequences of requeening as I had suggested. Would it change things?



Oldtimer,

I didn't address the possibility of requeening mine earlier, because a local source of queens for me wasn't known. This past week, I located a beek that sells queens about 3 miles from my farm. She says they will be available mid June. Would you advise requeening my hive, or splitting and making a nuc? Is this a ridiculous thing to try and do with a new package the first year?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hi Cub, no reason at all not to requeen, if you think the other queen will be superior. Just, you want to be treatment free, so ensure the new queen comes from a source that claims mite resistance. Merely being local means nothing she could have bred it from a queen she purchased anywhere.

A standard precaution when requeening if you only have a few hives, is to put the old queen aside with a few bees with a comb or two of brood, until you are sure the new queen has been properly accepted. THEN kill the old one, if that is what you want.

Or, the unit with the old queen could be your new split, if both parts have enough bees to be viable.

As to can a package be split first year? This cannot be answered yes or no because it depends. The answer is yes, if it's done right. Firstly, some packages come with the bees already carrying a significant mite load. If they go to a treatment free beekeeper, these mites will hold the package back, and make a later split less likely to succeed. 
But let's say the package is relatively mite free. Then, provided the nuc has a good environment that enables it to do well, yes, a point should be reached first season when there are sufficient numbers to allow 2 healthy splits, and this may even happen faster in a TBH.

But some environments are deficient in food, ie, the bees could be short of naturally occurring nectar, or pollen, at critical periods in the hive's development. The feeding of syrup if need be, plus a pollen sub if need be, can help ensure the bees are able to fulfil their potential, and it is very likely a spring package can be split into two good units a bit later in the year.

I realise this all sounds a bit more complex than a straight yes or no would have. But that's because there are many contributing factors. Mites, and sufficient available food, are two of the biggies. There are also others. If you are looking for increase, observe the bees closely, and try to mitigate anything that is slowing them down, and you should do well.


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## nhbuckeye (May 8, 2013)

Solomon Parker said:


> Come back and tell us how it looks when you inspect.


Update on the sticky bees.

It has been cold here in NH, upper 50's to low 60's day, in the 30's at night.

First morning after install, any bees not in the hive were dead, cleaned out as many from bottom board as possible.

I have peeked under the cover in the mornings and then in late afternoon.

In the cold mornings the bees are all clustering, later in the day they are flying in and out of the hive and appear to be working down in the frames. They are readily feeding from the ziploc. From the size of the cluster, I would estimate losses to be at least 60%

I did check the queen, not in cage so I am hoping she is under the cluster when cold and doing what she does during the warmer times.

I have not pulled any frames or done any invasive inspection since they appear to be doing what they do, I felt it best to leave them alone until this weekend. Should I pull and inspect frames then to monitor comb being drawn?

How will the large losses affect comb building? Slower I am guessing to fill out because of the lower numbers.

The temps are now climbing and we are not expected to be in the 30's at night.

Keeping my fingers crossed, but things are much improved since the install.

One more spot of good news. I located and reserved a relatively local (140 miles away in VT) overwintered nuc which I will pic up and install in early June.

I have had a lot of ups and downs this week, and learned a lot. I am trying to continue to remind myself to enjoy all aspects of this journey, even the down times.


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## nhbuckeye (May 8, 2013)

Another sticky bee update. Got home this evening and found that the bees had swarmed about 20 feet from the hive in a small hemlock. I captured them in a small bucket and placed them back in the hive. 

It was quite enjoyable capturing the swarm.

Lots of new experiences for me this week.


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

Back at you again, Oldtimer,

After speaking with the local beek, it appears that you are correct in your skepticism that just buying something local is somehow better. The queens I could purchase are from regularly medicated stock, so my Georgia package is basically equivalent. I did, however, find a bee tree yesterday! My first one ever, and now a friend and I plan on trapping out some starts and letting these raise a queen from either my uncapped brood, or the local beek's. This way, they can at least be bred with survivor drones, right? 

It seems that the winter loss this year in my area is in the ballpark of 50%, and no one is selling local bees anywhere even close. That means more bee trees or cutouts will have to be located. After a ridiculous amount of reading and studying, I have decided attempt a split mid June, and maybe boost the initial population with feral bees that have been trapped out in a 'newspaper combine' setup.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sounds good Cub, hopefully your enthusiasm will win the day.

I suspect though that you may be in one of those areas that does not have many so called survivor bees yet, maybe at least one of the splits you could requeen with a commercial queen claimed to be mite resistant, such as from say, beeweaver?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

http://www.beeweaver.com/

Quote - "BeeWeaver breeder colonies are selected annually from our thousands of hives. Our bees have not needed ANY mite treatments since 2001. When a BeeWeaver Queen heads your colony you will be able to throw away those expensive mite treatments as well".


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

To refute the statement "terrible southern queens", the queens with the worst overwintering record I ever had came from New York. I have read that most queen producers get their queen mothers from a fairly small number of producers so the genetics would not be much different. If a beekeeper has large winter losses, he should evaluate his management practices. He probably has a problem that is not caused by genetics.

I know my conditions are mild compared to northern conditions, but my losses are nil, if I pay attention to management prior to October. When I do sloppy work in August and Sptember the losses will show up the next spring.


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## nhbuckeye (May 8, 2013)

Solomon and all,

Finally have done a thorough inspection of the hive on Day 11. I am amazed at what the bees have done after the horrible sticky mess they started with. They are drawing comb on 3 frames, one in a major way. There is much nectar and pollen in many cells. What I was most excited to find however were eggs! I did not see the queen, and did not spend much time looking once I found the eggs. 

So, for all my worrying and fretting, the bees figured it all out on their own as they do and taught me many lessons along the way.

I feel very pleased to not be treating them.

Thanks for your support and feedback.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

NHBuckeye, glad to hear things are working.

What you are describing is one of my primary inspection methods, getting, seeing what needs to be seen and getting out. If you see eggs, especially a significant number of them, then the queen was there less than three days ago, and chances are she's fine. Check the brood distribution, check the pollen, nectar, and honey distributions, see the relative field force, how the bees are moving, what they sound like, what they smell like, make a mental note and move on. In treatment-free beekeeping, if everything looks well, usually everything is well. With enough practice, you may be able to pull a frame from a hive and know instantly that it is queenless, by the sound, the distribution of nectar, age or lack of brood, etc. It's good practice.

Doing nothing rarely makes things worse.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Solomon Parker said:


> Doing nothing rarely makes things worse.


Don't really agree with that because it depends on the skill level of the beekeeper. Doing nothing can and does allow things to get worse.

Doing something allows people to learn, both when they fail, but it's an especially great experience when they succeed. 

It's a catchphrase that is one of the latest to be doing the rounds of Beesource. I think it's harmful because it leads people not to take action when some is required. Yes, beginners can do the wrong thing and screw up, killing queen cells when not appropriate is a common one. But if they come here, ask, and get good advise, they should then proceed with confidence. 

For me, if a hive has a problem I fix it. I would not be selling the bee numbers I am if I just left everything to take care of itself. Or maybe I wouldn't be selling any bees at all.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Doing nothing rarely MAKES things worse.


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

Solomon,

I just did my first two cutouts this weekend back to back days! I found and caged the queen in the first, and released her after two days in the hive and all seems well. I could not locate the queen in the second cutout, as it was much larger, so I split it. The bees are acting like the queen is in one hive, and the other one is testy and acting queenless. (by what I have read, not experienced first hand.) My questions is, do I need to give them sugar syrup? They have made it on their own this far, so I didn't know if feeding would actually benefit them. Also, how long would you wait to check for a queen in the assumed queenless hive? There were several queen cells found and we divided them up between the two that got split.

P.S. The bee vac I threw together was a savior. 

Thanks in advance,
J


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Cub said:


> The bees are acting like the queen is in one hive, and the other one is testy and acting queenless. (by what I have read, not experienced first hand.)


If that's what you think is going on, that's probably what is going on. When I open my nucs and mating nucs, I know almost immediately if they are queenless. They have a whole different attitude.




Cub said:


> My questions is, do I need to give them sugar syrup?


If you have a flow on, no need.




Cub said:


> Also, how long would you wait to check for a queen in the assumed queenless hive?


 Depends on the timing of the cells. You can always keep adding a frame of open brood once a week until things level out.


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## casinoken (May 6, 2012)

Although I have learned a few things from Solomon's posts, I tend to disagree on this one. I started beekeeping, and decided that I wanted no chemicals in my hives. I won't put up a hive without having one of the Rossman mite/beetle trap bottom boards first. I have no connection with Rossman, but it is the best product that I have found. I do not treat with chemicals, have no real problems with shb or mites, and to this point, have had a 100% survival rate. That being said, I did have a weakened hive this year, due to a spotty brood queen, replaced the queen, no more problems.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Ken, could you make your point a little more direct?


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## casinoken (May 6, 2012)

??


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> Doing nothing rarely makes things worse.


Ever gotten a good look at an abandoned apiary?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

David LaFerney said:


> Ever gotten a good look at an abandoned apiary?


Yes.


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## casinoken (May 6, 2012)

An abandoned apiary, to me at least, means the owner was not a real beekeeper. To me, that would be like abandoning ur dog. I'm sorry, but if u abandon them, then u never should have had them in the first place.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Everybody dies. It's hard to take care of your bees when you're dead.


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