# Hive Overwintering Fools - Challenge 2013/2014



## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

I started an overwintering challenge for Horizontal Hives on the Top Bar Hive forum and since we added a column for Convntional Langstroth hives and Warre hives I wanted to let you know you are welcome to join us. The challenge goes from November 1st to April 1st (April Fools Day which is why that is part of the titile). I started a spreadsheet for people to fill out to join, see Hive Overwintering Fools - Challenge 2013/2014 I'll try to change the spreadsheet name to go along with opening it up.

The challenge win is just bragging rights and being happy with your successfully overwintered hives.  If you have columns you want added let me know. We have until November 1st to lock it down. Hope you join the fun!


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

Nice spreadsheet! Can zone 10 play? Not for bragging rights but because I like how it works.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

bevy's honeybees said:


> Nice spreadsheet! Can zone 10 play? Not for bragging rights but because I like how it works.


 Thanks! Sure! The warmer zones have a winter advantage but this is open to all who want to join. We might have to list category winners and not just overall survival. Most nucs, zones, hive type, etc...

I'm still tweaking the spreadsheet so let me know if I can make it better. I'm a bit worried it is getting too long.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm in :thumbsup:


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

I am on board


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## Hautions11 (Jun 20, 2013)

I'm in.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

16 so far (well, 15 plus a name so I am guessing that is a place saver)! Thanks all for joining!


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Up to 24 with a little over a week to go until the official start. We have a nice mix so far but no Warre keepers yet. Guess I need to post the invite on their forum.


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## frankthomas (Aug 2, 2012)

I'm in.


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## tank (Jun 20, 2013)

What about a spot for screened bottom board closed or open


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## wengeasley (Jun 25, 2013)

Im in...I guess just add our info to the spreadsheet?


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Two more days till the official start!

@ wengeasley Yes, just add your info to a row on the spreadsheet.

@ tank I saw a few people put that in their winter prep column but we can add it if you think it needs its own. All but one of mine is solid and the screened one is closed off.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

I want to play! Good luck to all! I just hope I can get another yearly lost to better or match my last. Happy Wintering,,,Thanks to Collen? for switching my information to the second spreadsheet, or was that automatic?:scratch:


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

I need to change my numbers. I came home from vacation to find one colony was gone and one queenless which I will combine with another colony. I have another nuk I'm going to combine with a newer colony--which I would have had done by the 1st if I had not gone on vacation. 
On Sunday I will correct my numbers. I still need to check country hives for accurate count.

It seems that after strong flows I lose a few queens and they are usually older queens. The hive I just lost looks like it went queenless. No dead bees or any sign of problem. No brood. Already robbed out but no sign of moths or beetles.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

bevy's honeybees said:


> I need to change my numbers. I came home from vacation to find one colony was gone and one queenless which I will combine with another colony. I have another nuk I'm going to combine with a newer colony--which I would have had done by the 1st if I had not gone on vacation.
> On Sunday I will correct my numbers. I still need to check country hives for accurate count.
> 
> It seems that after strong flows I lose a few queens and they are usually older queens. The hive I just lost looks like it went queenless. No dead bees or any sign of problem. No brood. Already robbed out but no sign of moths or beetles.


That is okay by me (hopefully no one else minds either!). I was figuring we could have a week grace period for any late joiners to get their numbers on the list anyway. Just put down what you know the situation to be today (or when you get the count done) when you update your numbers on Sunday. I certainly understand not being able to get in right away.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Tank, I added the column you requested on Solid or Screened bottom boards. Not sure if people will go back and fill it out now but hopefully they will!

fieldsofnaturalhoney, the spreadsheet was the same on both forum threads even though the link name might be different on the original. I renamed it when I opened it up to everyone.

fin and Dave B, you have put numbers in the 4-1-2014 column - did you mistake that for 2013?

jfb58, I added an observation hive column for you so that your numbers add up correctly.

*Thanks all for joining! If you want, check in and update us with how things are going over winter. I'm excited to see how we all do!*


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Looks like we ended up with 43 on our challenge (possibly 44, the one that is just the name could be a placeholder). We have a nice mix!

I decided to go ahead and make some candy and slipped it in four of my five nucs on Monday. Not sure all of them needed it but if they don't I will just remove it in the spring. I haven't put insulation under my covers or over my windows yet but plan to soon.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good job colleen! just entered the fray. i've lost one so far this winter.


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## Justin Trout (Apr 22, 2013)

Colleen O. said:


> I started an overwintering challenge for Horizontal Hives on the Top Bar Hive forum and since we added a column for Convntional Langstroth hives and Warre hives I wanted to let you know you are welcome to join us. The challenge goes from November 1st to April 1st (April Fools Day which is why that is part of the titile). I started a spreadsheet for people to fill out to join, see Hive Overwintering Fools - Challenge 2013/2014 I'll try to change the spreadsheet name to go along with opening it up.
> 
> The challenge win is just bragging rights and being happy with your successfully overwintered hives.  If you have columns you want added let me know. We have until November 1st to lock it down. Hope you join the fun!


nice idea and spreadsheet. I joined. Thanks.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Wonder why more don't jump on board.:scratch:
I think it's a great idea good job COLLEEN O.


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## S.M.N.Bee (Aug 9, 2011)

OK I jumped in. The spread sheet will provide some good information come spring.

John


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Thank you for setting this up! I just added my info. I am curious to see how we all fare over the winter. That the info is in a spreadsheet will make is easy to sift and sort the results.

If some out there haven't yet added data, please consider doing so. The more data we have, the more we might learn.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Welcome to all the new additions! I'm happy you decided to join in! Be sure to record your numbers based on the November 1st start date. I'll be going in and adding the loss category columns soon. I left most of them out to make initial number recording easier.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

GLOCK said:


> Wonder why more don't jump on board.:scratch:
> I think it's a great idea good job COLLEEN O.


Maybe it is missing the lively repartee that odfrank and Charlie B brought to last year's challenge? I was hoping they would join and bring it to this one. I tried to be fun with the title thinking Charlie B would jump at calling odfrank an overwintering fool but I am afraid it may have put more people off than it brought in.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I like it, I'm jumping in. Do not worry more will follow.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I was able to verify that 100% of my hives are still going as of last Saturday. From what I have been able to gather we are now past eh first of the worst in winter losses. From information I have read diseases tend get them in December. starvation in February. according to that we coast through January. We will see.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Colleen O. said:


> Maybe it is missing the lively repartee that odfrank and Charlie B brought to last year's challenge? I was hoping they would join and bring it to this one. I tried to be fun with the title thinking Charlie B would jump at calling odfrank an overwintering fool but I am afraid it may have put more people off than it brought in.


Our local bee club lost 56% of their bees last winter and this year looks like a repeat. So we are all overwintering fools out here in San Mateo County. Huge piles of dead bees last week during a cold spell.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Come on OD where is your warm fuzzy feeling? Come on in from the damp and jump on to the spreadsheet.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

odfrank said:


> Our local bee club lost 56% of their bees last winter and this year looks like a repeat. So we are all overwintering fools out here in San Mateo County. Huge piles of dead bees last week during a cold spell.


 I am sorry to hear that! Any idea why? Mites/mite vectored viruses, weather, etc...?


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Daniel Y said:


> I was able to verify that 100% of my hives are still going as of last Saturday. From what I have been able to gather we are now past eh first of the worst in winter losses. From information I have read diseases tend get them in December. starvation in February. according to that we coast through January. We will see.


 Sounds promising! Maybe I need to figure out how to get the loss month onto the spreadsheet. Last year one starved out during a late February cold snap, the other one dwindled out in early March (that was why I made the challenge go thru April 1st). I think the one that dwindled lost their queen. They had tried to supersede her in October but I culled the cell because it was too late in the season. Guess they knew something I didn't. 

We had a warm-up last week and I was encouraged to see all my nucs had bees out flying. There were some dead hauled out but not piles.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Come on OD where is your warm fuzzy feeling? Come on in from the damp and jump on to the spreadsheet.


I did but do not see it there. Maybe did not save properly.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Colleen O. said:


> I am sorry to hear that! Any idea why? Mites/mite vectored viruses, weather, etc...?


Mites/virus's.


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

I jumped in also. So far I haven't lost any.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

odfrank said:


> I did but do not see it there. Maybe did not save properly.


If you can't get the info on the spreadsheet for some reason if you send me a PM with it or post it here I will add it on for you. I'm not sure what the issue was but if you add the information using a smartphone you have to go back to the first column and click on the submit button for it to record the data.


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## Justin Trout (Apr 22, 2013)

WOW thats tough. really hoping mine pulls through!


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

For those of you already experiencing deadouts, I put a few reporting columns in the spreadsheet. Let me know if you would like me to tweak them to improve it. I tried to simplify the reporting but let me know if you think it would be better to add the columns for losses in each hive type. Right now I have it set up so that if you put numbers in the two deadout columns it calculates your overwintered colony total and loss percentage.

Feel free to add your deadout numbers as they happen!


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Chemguy, when someone tried to add their info a name got overwritten and I think it was yours. I put your name back in that spot with a question mark after it. Can you take a look and make sure that is your information and if it is just take the question mark off.

Thanks and sorry for the trouble! Guess I need to save off a copy more often!


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## Justin Trout (Apr 22, 2013)

So I have no dead haves yet out of 4! good start for my first winter I believe. I have added surplus sugar to each of the four hives for emergency situations. out of four hives, two are already needing refills, (they went through five pounds.) 
On other threads i read that a lot of peoples bees works from the top down. Well on all four hives all bees are on the top. my gut feeling is that there is honey in the bottom deep but I refuse to check at the moment because it has been kind of cold.
So should I add more food(sugar)? I assume the two eating the sugar are the weaker hives, and will not split them this spring.


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## Justin Trout (Apr 22, 2013)

justin trout said:


> so i have no dead haves yet out of 4! Good start for my first winter i believe. I have added surplus sugar to each of the four hives for emergency situations. Out of four hives, two are already needing refills, (they went through five pounds.)
> on other threads i read that a lot of peoples bees works from the top down. Well on all four hives all bees are on the top. My gut feeling is that there is honey in the bottom deep but i refuse to check at the moment because it has been kind of cold.
> So should i add more food(sugar)? I assume the two eating the sugar are the weaker hives, and will not split them this spring.


any input? Thanks


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

glad to hear all of your colonies are still alive jt. i agree it's better not to open them up and pull frames unless it gets warm enough for flying, i like it to get into the low 60's. have you lifted up the back of your hives to see if they feel heavy or light? it's probably wise to keep refilling the sugar to be on the safe side.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Justin Trout said:


> On other threads i read that a lot of peoples bees works from the top down. Well on all four hives all bees are on the top. my gut feeling is that there is honey in the bottom deep but I refuse to check at the moment because it has been kind of cold.


It depends on how big the cluster is, and what the temperature is. If you have a large population of bees, and it is not cold enough for them to be in a tight cluster, you could see bees at the top of the hive. Generally they have most of their stores above them and they work their way up into it as the winter progresses, but on a mild day they will be all over the inside of the hive. 



Justin Trout said:


> So should I add more food(sugar)? I assume the two eating the sugar are the weaker hives, and will not split them this spring.


You won't know for sure until springtime. For feeding what matters is how much stores they really have. One way to know for sure is weigh your hives in the early fall and feed them to your target weight. Mike Palmer talks about this all the time, and it's really the only way to know for sure.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Justin Trout said:


> any input? Thanks


Justin:
IMO, you should keep them supplied until natural forage is available.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Justin Trout said:


> Well on all four hives all bees are on the top. my gut feeling is that there is honey in the bottom deep but I refuse to check at the moment because it has been kind of cold.


In my opinion, you can open the inner cover just about whenever you want, and it won't hurt your bees. If they are filling the space between the top bars and the inner cover, just lift the inner slowly so bees don't drop off onto the ground. Heft the back of the hive. Is it heavy? Look at the combs at the side of the cluster. Do you see honey?. Poke your hive tool into the comb one seam of bees in from the edge of the cluster. When you pull it out, does it have honey on it? This all takes 30 seconds.

You don't have to pull combs to tell if the bees have enough stores for now. And you don't have to wait for a warm day when the sun is out, theres no wind, the temperature is over 50, and the bees are flying. If the hive feels heavy, and you see honey at the edge of the cluster, and/or your hive tool comes up covered with honey one seam of bees in from each side of the cluster, they're fine for now. Some colonies just winter on top, and some don't.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

17 out of 19 still alive and all have nice loud cluster roar. i have seen evidence of brooding in some, and i assume that most of them have started. we're supposed to get the coldest weather that we've had in many years here next week, as we are forecast to stay below freezing for 72 hours or more. this should be the acid test for those colonies with small clusters that are covering brood.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> supposed to get the coldest weather that we've had in many years here next week, as we are forecast to stay below freezing for 72 hours or more. this should be the acid test for those colonies with small clusters that are covering brood.




High for today was at noon... -10˚ By 1:30, the temperature had dropped to -14˚


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

brrrrrrrrr!


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> High for today was at noon... -10˚ By 1:30, the temperature had dropped to -14˚


Are the hives buried in the snow yet snug as a bug in a rug? If not, I think they will be very soon!


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## Justin Trout (Apr 22, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> In my opinion, you can open the inner cover just about whenever you want, and it won't hurt your bees. If they are filling the space between the top bars and the inner cover, just lift the inner slowly so bees don't drop off onto the ground. Heft the back of the hive. Is it heavy? Look at the combs at the side of the cluster. Do you see honey?. Poke your hive tool into the comb one seam of bees in from the edge of the cluster. When you pull it out, does it have honey on it? This all takes 30 seconds.
> 
> You don't have to pull combs to tell if the bees have enough stores for now. And you don't have to wait for a warm day when the sun is out, theres no wind, the temperature is over 50, and the bees are flying. If the hive feels heavy, and you see honey at the edge of the cluster, and/or your hive tool comes up covered with honey one seam of bees in from each side of the cluster, they're fine for now. Some colonies just winter on top, and some don't.


Thank you for your advice. I am not to worried, I see honey on the top frames, although I didn't pull them all the way out.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> High for today was at noon... -10˚ By 1:30, the temperature had dropped to -14˚


3:30pm Down to -18˚


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Is anyone else updating their winter prep info due to extra precautions they are taking due to the cold snap? I brought 4 of my 5 nucs into my garage. The one I left out has more honey and a larger cluster but it is also the one with the highest mite count. I checked that one yesterday through the viewing window and they were moving around and on lots of honey so we'll see how they do.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Two days ago, it was an unusually warm 60F day. Felt like Spring.

I was surprised to see that two of my hives had huge orientation flight activity in the afternoon. Again, just like Spring. This on January 3rd. I am guessing these hive are doing so well that they were able to do some significant brooding through our cold weather. I peeked in one hive, and it had so many bees in it I automatically started thinking about swarm prevention. Swarm prevention in January? Seems crazy!

I would worry about the hive building up, and then getting hammered by a cold snap, but they did this brooding during a cold snap so I guess they could handle another one.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Per participant suggestion I added in a state column to the spreadsheet. Some participants had filled that out in the zone area so I transferred the information if it was there. Those of you who didn't already have that in please fill it out when you next visit the spreadsheet. It will make it easier for people to sort the information.

Thanks again to all who have joined in!!!!


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Lost one of 10 so far. 
One of the remaining 9 is weaker than the others.


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## Justin Trout (Apr 22, 2013)

Colleen O. said:


> Is anyone else updating their winter prep info due to extra precautions they are taking due to the cold snap? I brought 4 of my 5 nucs into my garage. The one I left out has more honey and a larger cluster but it is also the one with the highest mite count. I checked that one yesterday through the viewing window and they were moving around and on lots of honey so we'll see how they do.


Well I fed the two weaker hives with more sugar like was suggested and noticed today some had been throwing it out. I do not know why? Anyhow I wrapped my hives today in eastern kentucky with roofing paper considering we are being forecasted -30 wind chills with temperatures at -5. I will probably remove the paper once it warms back up to average season temperatures.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

HIVE DoWN!, Hard to believe it was around 60 degrees last Friday, so I took the opportunity to look around the bee yards. I had to move a triple deep about a month ago due to a neighbor selling their home. I moved the hive to an out apiary that had a 2,000 feet elevation difference, yet I do not think this was the reason for their demise. I have not gone through the hive to see the size of the dead cluster, queen, or try to determine the reason for their death. I have a feeeling it had something to do with the move though.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Pleasant surprise today! One of the two colonies I reported dead is not! I would not want to place a large wager that they will make it til spring but where there is life there is hope. There is a miller feeder I didn't remove when I wrapped. Don't ask me why that didn't happen! It was 45F today but the wind was blowing far to hard for me to want to abuse such a small cluster by taking apart their home. I took some dry sugar and quickly made a paste and put it in a news paper sheet that I tucked down In the middle entrance of the feeder. I have now been into all my wintering colonies and for the most part am pleased. I see none that will starve and I have hopes for good winter survival rates. Only 3 months til Dandelions!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

great news vg!


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

That is a very happy surprise Vance. Hope they continue to make it!


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

I lost my weakest nuc and two more are in trouble due to small clusters. I tried to help them by bringing the nucs into the garage but it looks like I acted a bit late. We had already had single digits by then and I know they took a hit at that time. One had started brood and I'm sure that is why they suffered a bigger hit with the small cluster. I saw the queens though in both so the one that had been brooding I gave a bar of bees from the strong nuc. I didn't dare take more. On the bright side the strongest (which I left outside and did no extra measures to) is looking great and the one with the best mite count of all I didn't inspect but they had a lot of bees flying over the weekend. I updated the spreadsheet to reflect the loss.

The one that I lost had the second highest mite count and fewest bees so I wasn't surprised. I cleaned out all the dead but there were still a handful of live bees in the nuc. I wasn't sure what to do with them because I didn't want to add them to the other nucs due to their mite infestation rate. If I did a sugar roll on them first would it be okay to add them? That would let me close up the nuc to prevent robbing. I suppose they won't make it beyond a few days anyway but the other two could use the bees.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Vance - last spring i had one i had given up for dead. Went into it to rob stores and found a cluster the size of a tennis ball. Gave them a frame of bees and brood and they are now a strong hive. They didn't make a honey crop, but still. Don't be too quick to give up.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I am pretty philosophical about it. If they make it until warmer weather when their is brood, I will boost them. Then if they don't take off I will combine the remainder with another struggler. I have seldom made money by hanging on to cripples long term. The colony will certainly be requeened.



David LaFerney said:


> Vance - last spring i had one i had given up for dead. Went into it to rob stores and found a cluster the size of a tennis ball. Gave them a frame of bees and brood and they are now a strong hive. They didn't make a honey crop, but still. Don't be too quick to give up.


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## VickyLynn (Jun 20, 2011)

I just went into my four hives to check whether there was any moisture on the homosote underneath the outer cover, and three of my four hives are dead! There is so much honey in there, it's oozing. The mites were low at the beginning of the season (2 to 7 per 2 cups of bees). The one surviving hive has a cluster on the top deep (2 deeps in all) about 6 inches by seven inches. I hope they make it. I saw plenty of honey in there, but I gave them a fondant patty just in case.

What a depressing day.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

VickyLynn said:


> The mites were low at the beginning of the season (2 to 7 per 2 cups of bees).


The real test is how infested they are at the end of the season.....Oozing honey?


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## Greg Lowe (Feb 3, 2012)

Nice work!


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

The subject came up on the horizontal hive version of this thread as to whether increase should be counted into the overwintering challenge totals. I decided to bring the question to the participants and let you decide. Poll is open for four days.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Vance G said:


> Pleasant surprise today! One of the two colonies I reported dead is not! I would not want to place a large wager that they will make it til spring but where there is life there is hope. There is a miller feeder I didn't remove when I wrapped. Don't ask me why that didn't happen! It was 45F today but the wind was blowing far to hard for me to want to abuse such a small cluster by taking apart their home. I took some dry sugar and quickly made a paste and put it in a news paper sheet that I tucked down In the middle entrance of the feeder. I have now been into all my wintering colonies and for the most part am pleased. I see none that will starve and I have hopes for good winter survival rates. Only 3 months til Dandelions!


I found out yesterday I am in the same situation. I went out to clean out and close up the nuc I thought all but dead but I pulled a bar with a cluster of bees surrounding the queen. I put it back, put some food in, and closed it up. I still think they will die out but agree with the life and hope statement. They are in the garage except when it is warm enough for them to fly.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Only 5 votes?! Voting closes tonight just before midnight so please get your votes in soon to have your opinion counted!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

wasn't sure how to vote. we don't get swarms or make splits while overwintering here.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> wasn't sure how to vote. we don't get swarms or make splits while overwintering here.


:thumbsup:


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> wasn't sure how to vote. we don't get swarms or make splits while overwintering here.


I am trying to not show my preference but what you said is the point. If it is added in then a person in a warmer climate could end the "overwintering season" with more than 100% survival even with losses. That gives them an advantage over areas with cold winters. Do you want to see that happen or is it enough to show that they had increase on the spreadsheet but have the overwintered totals only based on November 1st colonies. There is an example of this on the spreadsheet now, which prompted the poll.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i see now, thanks colleen. imo if the purpose of the challenge is to compare 'winter' survival it would make more sense to base the totals on nov 1st colonies, and reflect the increase separately. voted no.

the spreadsheet is very interesting and i'm really glad you took the time to get it going. 

this is getting beyond overwintering and more toward sustainability, but it might be interesting to compare # colonies 4-1-13 to 11-1-13 to 4-1-14 to get a feel for overall growth/shrinkage with the contrasting management techniques, not so much as a 'contest' since not everyone is looking to increase, but more to prompt discussion about sharing methods ect.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Ok, I added another line to the spreadsheet. We started in the fall with 10 colonies. So far, one froze, cluster was to small for the -15C stretch we had. Same hive, same size cluster did fine in warmer winters.

Nice warm day today 8C, with the sun shining on them. Everybody has bees flying, and 2 of the nucs are bearding. Whoda thunk that for January.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> the spreadsheet is very interesting and i'm really glad you took the time to get it going.
> 
> this is getting beyond overwintering and more toward sustainability, but it might be interesting to compare # colonies 4-1-13 to 11-1-13 to 4-1-14 to get a feel for overall growth/shrinkage with the contrasting management techniques, not so much as a 'contest' since not everyone is looking to increase, but more to prompt discussion about sharing methods ect.


I've been thinking along the same lines but figured it depended on how successful this years reporting goes. I thought that if we do it again next year we could add some information on continuing colonies, how these colonies did during the summer, etcetera...or have a summer version with harvest data added.


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## Justin Trout (Apr 22, 2013)

I like the idea of this spreadsheet and continuing it to get a vast amount of management information.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Well hate to say it but I think I have lost my first 2 hives of the year a TRI. nuc 5+5+5 and a DBL. deep.
It's been a long cold winter.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

All good as of today. Fingers crossed.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

The one that was on it's last legs croaked and the one with my second best mite count died out. The cold hit them but from the trails on the nuc walls of the good count one I think it might have been Nosema too.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Still at 100% and bees have been foraging here for the past couple of weeks. We are having 60 degree days. Second winter in a row looking like there will be no losses. starvation in spring is not likely with my bees.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

I thought my nuc with the lowest mite count was a goner so I moved it into the garage so that I could take a look today (rainy out but almost flying temps). I ended up not going through the nuc completely because, THEY'RE ALIVE! I pulled a bar or two, moved some over, and found a cluster not happy to see me. Queen came out for a look-see. Oops! Gently ushered her and the rest back in, put a half bar of honeycomb plus a small pollen patty in the back of the nuc and closed it up. Other than being a little shy on stores (which is why I put in the honeycomb and bit of patty) what I saw looked good. I didn't look at the front at all, once I saw the queen I couldn't get out of there fast enough. Really hope I didn't mess things up!

I have some spare combs with large patches of honey from the two nucs I lost that I could put in the front if those combs are empty but I didn't want to disturb it any more. I think they now have enough for a few more weeks at least. Hopefully we get a nice warm day before the end of February so I can either put the combs in or feed them the honey.

Now I may not need that insurance package I had just ordered thinking I was down to one strong and one weak (translate that as I considered I was down to one). Oh well, I guess I'll figure that out when the time comes.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

nice.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

C'mon SPRING!!! I don't know about the rest of you but I am SO ready for winter to end! How is everyone doing so far? Just a little over 7 weeks to go on the challenge.


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

Me too, Colleen. So far I am 11 alive out of 11. One is very weak though and I don't expect it to make it but we'll see.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

I checked ours today and all the hives and nucs are sill alive.
Dave


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

I have lost 2 so far this year and thought I lost 3 but I went and checked everyone to day and they all a humming and the one I figured was dead for at least a week seem to go back to life and is humming go figure .
What is funny the dinky nuc I had going in to this winter I figured would be gone by DEC. is still humming away and I have lost 2 hives with healthy clusters and stores a DBL. deep and 5 over 5 over 5 tri nuc. go figure :scratch:


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I started with 21 now have 23, all are doing just fine. We had a very warm January and so far a cooler and wet February. Bees where flying yesterday in the rain to get to some sugar that was dissolving in the rain. makes me wonder if I should not be putting on some sugar water during the day. Nights are still to cold for me to trust it. many hives have sugar cakes on top. I am thinking we should get them on all the hives. I am thinking my bees may have made swarm cells before this is over. All I need is for some trees to start blooming. There is a lot of stuff out there with buds on it.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Of the three hives I had before January's cold snap (and another shorter one last week), two seem to have gone silent. It will be in the 50's this Friday, so I'll peek in to see what the situation is.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

As of about 5 days ago two of our strongest hives could possibly have a super added to them. Last year the first boxes as added on March 11th. so we are running pretty close to the 30 days ahead of last year. Current weather may carve that down a bit but I don't expect the season to be pushed back any where near average. Last year was 30 days ahead of average. This year so far some sources are showing it 30 days ahead of last year and 60 days ahead of normal. I think it is stretching it to expect the bees to be in sync with that. that woudl mean they have their first capped queen cells on March 14th and I just do not see that happening from this point. They still have to much build up to get done. Prior to the end of March is still quite possible.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Temperature warmed up and I took a look at my three remaining colonies. Two of the three are doing well. My colony with the highest mite count in October and my colony with the lowest mite count in October are both still alive and thriving. Both have started rearing small patches of brood. I actually saw emerging brood in the high mite count nuc (no DWV). The third I made a huge mistake with yesterday trying to get the queen through despite all but a few bees of her colony surviving. I tried to fix yesterday's mistake but probably only compounded it. The bees closed ranks on me after I unsuccessfully tried to cage the queen. At the end I gave up and had to leave it to fate. I really liked that Buckfast queen and wanted her to have the opportunity to add to my local gene pool but it is what it is. I tried. She still has a small chance but if I hadn't intervened she would have died already so despite my mistake I feel I tried. One of the colonies needed honey so I added some of that to it. Both are low on pollen and bee bread so I gave them some pollen substitute too.

I' d be happiest if all three colonies overwinter but two would be just fine.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If you have one colony that could spare a frame of bees consider doing this. Get a piece of 1/8" hardware cloth. With a tin snips, take an 8" square of it and cut toward the center about 1/2". 
Now lay the hardware cloth down with the 1/2" of one side over the edge of table top or a board and fold it 90 degrees. Repeat till all sides are folded. When you go in the weak colony find the queen and push this cage in the comb a quarter inch with her and her court of bees under it. Take a donor frame of bees without the queen and put it next to the frame with the caged queen. Leave them a week. That will give them time to love the queen and her time to have laid some brood. It might boost the strength enough to let the colony survive. If she is trying to lay with her little court, can you risk two frames? Making a couple Styrofoam followers and confining this weak little colony to about four frames would help them a lot too. It may not be worth the trouble but that is your call. Just offering a solution that has worked for me.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Vance G said:


> If you have one colony that could spare a frame of bees consider doing this. Get a piece of 1/8" hardware cloth. With a tin snips, take an 8" square of it and cut toward the center about 1/2".
> Now lay the hardware cloth down with the 1/2" of one side over the edge of table top or a board and fold it 90 degrees. Repeat till all sides are folded. When you go in the weak colony find the queen and push this cage in the comb a quarter inch with her and her court of bees under it. Take a donor frame of bees without the queen and put it next to the frame with the caged queen. Leave them a week. That will give them time to love the queen and her time to have laid some brood. It might boost the strength enough to let the colony survive. If she is trying to lay with her little court, can you risk two frames? Making a couple Styrofoam followers and confining this weak little colony to about four frames would help them a lot too. It may not be worth the trouble but that is your call. Just offering a solution that has worked for me.


Thank you Vance. I had a number 8 hardware cloth push-in cage that I unsucessfully tried putting on today. 

I gave this queen a bar of bees from the high mite count nuc a few weeks ago, that got them this far. I even brought them inside but still lost almost all of her bees. When I checked on her she actually had a mite on her back. (Wow do they move fast, much more agile than I expected!) I removed it and took the opportunity to mark her at the same time. 

I had made a double nuc up for her and put a couple bars of honey in it. I moved it outside yesterday and put the low mite count nuc into it on the other side of a divider so that they could share warmth. The new nuc has quilt boxes on it and a terrarium heater and thermostat on the weak queen side. I gave them a bar and a half of bees from the low mite count nuc when I did the transition. (I needed to take a bar out of that nuc anyway to give them honey.) My major mistake (definitely not only!) was not putting the push-in cage on her yesterday when I had ample opportunity. The bees were fanning with hinneys in the air both yesterday and today. I found the queen today (she was on the bottom of a bar in a ball of bees) and got her in the cage but I was losing light and she must have escaped. I got a light and looked for her, she had to still be on the bar, but the bees just clumped up and started fanning, wouldn't move at all for me to find her again. I was out of light and time so I finally gave up. On a positive note she was already laying eggs, had tried to start brooding up but when they lost bees the brood must have gotten chilled and died. Today I saw that the infusion of bees were housecleaning, uncapping and cleaning out those cells. With the temperatures today they had a chance to jump ship to their old queen but they stayed and were busy setting up house. (I did also restrict their entrance to a single bee at a time.) I wish I hadn't tried to cage her today. I am afraid I only made them more upset disrupting things. I'd like to think they know with the season she is their only chance and not kill her. Mentally I am counting this colony as a hard earned mistake but we shall see. Maybe they will make it despite my bumbling.


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## Just Krispy (Aug 1, 2013)

Checked yesterday and both of my hives are dead. One carni and the other a buckfast. We had 23 straight days of sub zero temps. A new record for us. Both hives had food. The carnis were in a fist sized cluster under the quilt box. Looked like buckys were down but could not see cluster. The snow is so deep I didn't want to dig around too much. I suspect the skunk probably had taken numbers down too much last fall. Oh well lots of frames with honey for the nee bees coming in April.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Well lost 2 more nucs 5 x5 .
One had gotten blown over I have never had that happen be for I have wind breaks to:scratch: 

They where both weak going in to winter after being robbed out in JULY never fully recovered should of combined them I am learning.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Chemguy said:


> Of the three hives I had before January's cold snap (and another shorter one last week), two seem to have gone silent. It will be in the 50's this Friday, so I'll peek in to see what the situation is.


I went into one of the deadouts today. The hive was a double deep plus a medium super, with a quilt box on top. I had placed a sugar block on the hive back in December. All of my hives were treated with OA vapor in the Fall, at three 2-week intervals ending in early November and mite drops were zero in a 24 hour period after the last treatment.

The lower deep had frames 1-6 empty, 7-9 full of bee bread, 10 empty. The second deep and the medium were full of honey going into the winter, and it looks like about 30% of the honey had been consumed. The SBB was full of dead, greasy-looking bees.

I noticed a few emergency supercedure cells in the upper deep, so the queen must have died going into winter. One interesting thing about the cluster is that it had moved sideways, toward frames 7-10 in the second deep and the medium, not up the middle of the hive. I could see that the cluster shrank as it ate its way up the side of the hive. At the end point, in the medium, the cluster was on frames 9 and 10 and there were obvious signs of dysentery in that area. 

Conclusion: As nice as it might be to think that the deep cold alone killed this colony, the signs point to nosema a possible factor. Too many bees, including the queen, died early on and the small cluster died with their butts pointing out. I'll be using a microscope next week to see if it was indeed nosema, as opposed to plain ol' winter dysentery.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Colleen O. said:


> Mentally I am counting this colony as a hard earned mistake but we shall see. Maybe they will make it despite my bumbling.


Yup, hard earned mistake. They killed her. I put down the loss to cold with too small a cluster and beekeeper error since if I had caged her she may have made it despite the loss of her colony. The remaining two colonies look really good and have small patches of emerging brood next to honey stores.

Hope spring comes soon!


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Chemguy said:


> ...All of my hives were treated with OA vapor in the Fall, at three 2-week intervals ending in early November and mite drops were zero in a 24 hour period after the last treatment.
> ...
> I noticed a few emergency supercedure cells in the upper deep, so the queen must have died going into winter.


Do you think your fall treatments may have affected the queen?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

We did inspections on 8 of our hives yesterday. There was quite a bit of things to do in them. some of them have mini nuc frames I am trying to get them to draw out. All of them had anywhere between 2 and 7 frames of brood. 5 of the 8 had medium supers added to them. All have queens some are just further behind and one is actually struggling a bit. looks like winter was hard on them.

We will get more inspections done today and I expect not only more of the same but expect to transferring some of the 5 frame nucs to 10 frame equipment.

We lost one of the 5 frame nucs queens last week. I suspect that colony got weak enough that the other hives robbed it. I had sen the queen the week before. I was going to cage her and introduce a frame or two of bees and brood but could not find her. we placed the remainder of the nuc over another stronger 5 frames of bees.

As far as I can tell the bees have been in build up for at least the last two weeks and that is increasing slowly.

Colleen all of these queens where treated with OAV last fall. I do not suspect it has effected them.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Daniel Y, I wasn't asking in general if OAV was hard on them. I know a lot of people use it with great success. I wondered if the frequency and amount may have been. I don't use OAV and have no idea if that is the normal way it is used, just wondered if there might be a connection due to the timing he described. It seemed that losing his (Chemguy's) queen was when he really lost the colony, although if his hive had Nosema it may have been doomed even if she was still there. I lost one to dysentary (not sure if it was actually Nosema or not) and they went downhill really fast. Seemed fine, queen was there, then a week later all dead. I am definitely not trying to start the T versus TF debate.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Colleen, If I am reading the application correctly it was actually a bit prolonged than is recommended. I use three applications each 7 days apart. The idea is to catch every cell in the hive while it is uncapped. at a 14 day repeated application you will not get them all. Cells will have emerged, had brood laid in them and been recapped in a 14 day period.

But overall a standard treatment of OAV is 3 to 4 applications over a 2 to 3 week period.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Thanks Daniel, for both the explanation and assessment. I suppose his queen could as easily gotten rolled or pinched. No way to know what really happened.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

One more month to go! (I don't know about you all but this winter seems like it will never end!)

I have two holding on that seem strong. How is everyone's bees doing? I see a lot of people have been filling in their losses as they occur on the spreadsheet which should make the challenge end tally easy (Thank You! :thumbsup. Lot of interesting information on there.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have had one nuc loose it's queen. what bees remained where combined with another nuc. Of our 12 large hives all are still goign two I am concerned about. one considerably so. Simply weak. possibly to weak to really get a start. possibly bad queens. We also have two hives that are building and ready for boxes to be added. All hives have brood nests between 2 to 7 frames as of last week. Of the 10 nucs remaining two are still behind. the others are all ready to be moved to 10 frame equipment over the next week to two weeks.

For all realistic purposes winter is over here and has been for a while. I will be watching for swarm cells soon. We got some light snow and rain a couple of weeks ago and again yesterday. but those are just feeble attempts at winter trying to return. days have been as warm as 70 degrees high 50's low 60's for the most part since the first of February. Even January was unusually warm. Bees where flying the entire month on random days.


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## HappyBeeing (Apr 6, 2013)

My one and only top bar hive is alive and going crazy every time the sun hits it and the day is windless and over 50 degrees. Not a fruit tree blooming for a couple of weeks at home but they found something!
I'm going to have to re-think my "upset" over all the Golden Mean Hive style swarming; since I have a granddaughter queen from it that may be a Survivor now!
I was Totally fooled by how tiny my cluster got and how quiet it got, but FINALLY I'm sure they've Made It! No nasty weather would stop them now since they have lots of stores and know how to move to them. They made a "tunnel" between a couple of combs to get to food and that is so cool! New bees are orienting too so I can be sure of a queen! Wow, I'm really delighted and more than a little surprised. I gave myself Much grayer hair with my fretting the last 4 months! I never saw the poll, but my vote was also No Way! HB


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## Deepsouth (Feb 21, 2012)

Winter is pretty much over in South Louisiana. I only lost one small nuc out of 44 hives. The start of my spring flow is here with willows and blackberry starting to bloom and my hives are expanding rapidly.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very nice ds! off topic for this thread, but do you do anything for swarm prevention?


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## Deepsouth (Feb 21, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> very nice ds! off topic for this thread, but do you do anything for swarm prevention?


At the start of blackberry bloom I reverse and super to get them ready for the nectar flow. That gets them through the first flow. Then when Chinese tallow starts to bloom in may, I put up to 3 supers on at a time because Tallow is a *strong* flow and they fill everything up faster than I can handle.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Chemguy said:


> ........I'll be using a microscope next week to see if it was indeed nosema, as opposed to plain ol' winter dysentery.


It was dysentery.


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## frankthomas (Aug 2, 2012)

Both of first year 10 frame langs are hanging in there. One got a pretty bad bout of dysentery 3 weeks ago but have 3 different days for cleansing flight since then and seem to have come through it. 
In the late fall they were feeing a little light so I gave each a half medium of buckwheat honey. That and the long michigan winter got the best of them I think. But we are getting short teases of spring with day times getting in the 40s but still a lot of sub freezing nights. In fact we have about an inch of snow coming in the next day or two.
Also last fall I gave each colony a sugar cake of just sugar and water. The hive with dysentery went through it so I gave them another 3 weeks ago.
One final observation... The dysentery hive spent most of the winter right at the top under the screen bottom of the cedar shaving filled moisture quilt. Now that hard winter has broke they have moved back down into the frames. I think that is a good sign.
I'm hopeful both colonies will survive if I can get them through the early Spring dearth.


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## steer53 (Nov 8, 2011)

I wintered over 6 double hive bodies and have 2 left. 3 of the 4 deadouts had plenty of stores left on the sides, just couldn't leave the cluster and consume it. The 4th was a booming hive, and was completely empty. Big eaters I guess, must have had 6-7 lbs. of bees dead throughout the hive.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Steer53, you are welcome to add your info to the spreadsheet. You will find the link on the first page of this thread. 

All:
We are getting close to the end of the challenge! Is anyone interested in a spring/summer spreadsheet/thread? I was thinking of a title "Harvest Bee Fun 2014 - Bees, Honey, & Pollen". I'd put columns for increase, honey harvest, hive products, etcetera. Start it April 1st and run to October 1st. If there is any interest I'll start a spreadsheet and new thread for it.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Colleen O. said:


> All:
> We are getting close to the end of the challenge! Is anyone interested in a spring/summer spreadsheet/thread? I was thinking of a title "Harvest Bee Fun 2014 - Bees, Honey, & Pollen". I'd put columns for increase, honey harvest, hive products, etcetera. Start it April 1st and run to October 1st. If there is any interest I'll start a spreadsheet and new thread for it.


sounds good to me. nice job on the overwintering one colleen. i've no experience with spreadsheets, what kind of info will you be able to glean beyond just glancing over the entries?


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Colleen O. said:


> Steer53, you are welcome to add your info to the spreadsheet. You will find the link on the first page of this thread.
> 
> All:
> We are getting close to the end of the challenge! Is anyone interested in a spring/summer spreadsheet/thread? I was thinking of a title "Harvest Bee Fun 2014 - Bees, Honey, & Pollen". I'd put columns for increase, honey harvest, hive products, etcetera. Start it April 1st and run to October 1st. If there is any interest I'll start a spreadsheet and new thread for it.


I'm all for it.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> sounds good to me. nice job on the overwintering one colleen. i've no experience with spreadsheets, what kind of info will you be able to glean beyond just glancing over the entries?


Beyond just finding what beekeeping practices people are implementing interesting and having it condensed together for ease, having it on a spreadsheet allows people to filter the data. You could look at it by zone, hive type, increase, honey harvest, etc...


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## frankthomas (Aug 2, 2012)

Colleen I entered data in the spreadsheet in the fall but not since. Where is the link to it?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

frankthomas said:


> Where is the link to it?


If you go back to page 1, it's a hyperlink on #1.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

frankthomas said:


> Colleen I entered data in the spreadsheet in the fall but not since. Where is the link to it?


Instead of going to the last post go to the first page of this thread. The link is on the first page. I was thinking I should link it again in new post when I put out the call for data entry the week before the challenge end.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Is there any way to tell when entries were last updated? There are quite a few which don't have any entries for colony losses which are expressing as 100% survival. I just updated my entry (100% survival) but it's the first time that I have done so I think. You might consider adding another field once it is all over - "If your survival rate was over (something - 80%) what do you attribute it to?" - as a counterpoint to the "Reason for deadout?" field. 

I would say something like - young queens, year round nutritional supplements as needed, effective mite management (treatments in late summer, and during fall broodless period), winter hives configured to maximize the advantages of mt camp feed system, apiary location not near commercial aggriculture.

I would speculate that the data is skewed because people who have higher confidence in their overwintering prospects are more likely to participate - I know that applies to me anyway - still, this is a good project. Thanks for shepherding it.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

I agree. I think there should be a date automatically entered for the last entry of each participant. Otherwise you don't know if the data is updated or still from last fall.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> Is there any way to tell when entries were last updated? There are quite a few which don't have any entries for colony losses which are expressing as 100% survival. I just updated my entry (100% survival) but it's the first time that I have done so I think. You might consider adding another field once it is all over - "If your survival rate was over (something - 80%) what do you attribute it to?" - as a counterpoint to the "Reason for deadout?" field.
> 
> I would say something like - young queens, year round nutritional supplements as needed, effective mite management (treatments in late summer, and during fall broodless period), winter hives configured to maximize the advantages of mt camp feed system, apiary location not near commercial aggriculture.
> 
> I would speculate that the data is skewed because people who have higher confidence in their overwintering prospects are more likely to participate - I know that applies to me anyway - still, this is a good project. Thanks for shepherding it.


I've started to see this could be a problem too and you make a good suggestion. How about I add a column that is just for an X that would represent you have made your final reporting and verify the numbers are complete and then also a column for the question you pose? That way I will know who has finished so I can start the results tally. I will leave out the results from the entries that aren't checked.

Do you think 80% is the right amount for the bar? What about 85%? Isn't that the "good ole' days" average?

Rkereid, I will look to see about the update date but am not sure I will be able to get that sophisticated. Hopefully the X will cover it. With it being open everyone is on their honor as to reporting but there sure are a lot of 100% on there still.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

I think the X would be enough for determining final overwintering status.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Not to confound things, but when does winter end? Our answers will vary. I'll keep my eyes on the maples and when they bloom I'll call it spring.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

According to this thread April 1st, according to our weather, last January. Any challenge from winter ended long ago. I will be very close to adding 45 colonies to my apiary before this challenge has ended. We start the cell builder today. will be isolating queens on empty comb next week and will graft a week from Monday. 12 days after that we will have as many as 45 new starter colonies.

That is part of my problem with this tracking only logging lose. losses are not the only direction winter can take. but if you eliminate the idea that increases can and have been made the results are useless. Beekeeping seems to have the idea that the best beekeeping results in the lowest losses. I don't, I consider the best beekeeping the methods that produce the greatest gains. even mid winter. Losses are so much the only acceptable outcome that gains are referred to in terms that indicate they are cheating. I have increased my apiary mid winter for the past two years. It was not some accident. Had I grafted two weeks ago I would have tripled the size of my apiary before this tracking ended. The only reason it did not is because it does not fit in my schedule. The bees are more than ready. and have been for a while.

So how did you over winter? 5% losses wow that is good. I had 300% increase. So do you really want to know how bees can be kept or just track losses?


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

I think winter ends before you make increase. 

Chemguy- maple bloom doesn't indicate nectar coming in so it is still possible for your bees to starve at this time of year.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

rkereid said:


> Chemguy- maple bloom doesn't indicate nectar coming in so it is still possible for your bees to starve at this time of year.


that's what i thought too until i discovered there is lots of nectar coming in on the maple flow. perhaps it varies with different types of maple or there is something else providing nectar at that time.

daniel's point has to do with the problem of using the same start and stop dates for all of us even though the timing varies greatly with location. since most colonies are lost over winter it makes sense to look at that and try to understand it. since making increase is a big part of sustainability it makes sense to look at that too.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Chemguy said:


> Not to confound things, but when does winter end? Our answers will vary. I'll keep my eyes on the maples and when they bloom I'll call it spring.


With winter ending at different times for most everyone I just had to pick a reasonable date and go with that. Spring has now arrived according to the calendar and April 1st seemed like a good stopping point so was set out as such when I set up the challenge.

Last year on the odfrank challenge they picked March 1st and I reported in 50% survival but lost that second hive by a few days later. There were a lot of complaints last year about that date being too early, but I have also read the reports of people on here already doing splits and catching swarms.

For the challenge this year I'm sticking to the end date we all agreed to at the outset but if we do this again next winter I am willing to set things up differently if that is what the majority of participants want. For informational purposes if those still not coming out of winter yet want to keep reporting that is good but I will post the results from the April 1st cutoff information.

Would it help if I put in a column asking if people consider spring to have arrived in their area by April 1st?

We are still getting some cold weather and the occasional snow shower but today over 70° F is forecast and my bees have been bringing in nectar and pollen from somewhere (Silver maples?) for a few weeks now. I've done full inspections on the remaining colonies and believe by mid next week when this batch of brood hatches out they will have doubled their cluster size. For my bees winter sure seems over, I'm worrying about staying ahead of their build-up and keeping them from swarming by mid-April.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

First day of spring in the low 30s with hard wind I might ad.
It is still cold in these parts I would love to open feed need 50s or 60s I could still lose hives this has been a hard winter that's for sure.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Daniel Y - the thing is that making increase and overwintering are not the same thing. I think that if we dig deeper we are likely to find that people who make increase also have better luck over wintering. It builds skills, give you the resources you need to cull laggards ruthlessly, and makes it more likely that you will have young vigorous queens going into winter.

April 1st seems like a decent compromise where I am - still having cold snaps, starvation is still possible (but ever less likely day by day) and swarming shouldn't be an issue yet, it soon will. A lot of people still haven't done a first inspection - I haven't done frame by frame yet, always too cool when I have the opportunity.

And BTW while everyone talks the most about losing hives over winter - summer is a pretty good contender for hive losses.

Colleen - 80-85%, whatever you think is fine, but either is probably better than average, and certainly respectable.

not just surviving - pretty thriving...










Yes I know, those are the ugliest boxes you have ever seen...


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

David
Yes I know said:


> The bees don't care!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

We found or first queen cup with an egg in it yesterday. 7 days after my initial estimate of when swarm cells would appear. It was out of a strong nuc that is a 5 over 5 over 5 hive so it is a little more prone to swarming than our full size hives. 
We where in the process of pulling frames of brood for making a cell builder. We will be grafting the first Larva of the year on the 31st. That will be the start of as many as 45 new colonies.

We will be inspecting all hives today for any other swarm cells.

My records form last year show the first Dandelion was seen on March 14th and the first swarm cell on April 14th. This year the first Dandelion was seen on February 14th and I estimated from that the first swarm cell could be seen as early as March 14th. It actually appeared 7 days later than that. We have had a week or two of colder days in that time so I am estimating that a cold day delays swarm cells by half a day at this time. Maybe not even that much I am not certain of the age of the egg. We left it in place for now so I can find out just what day it was started. the queen will be removed form the nuc today and placed in a new 5 frame box. that makes the first new hive split from my apiary for this year. I expect to see at least 12 others over the next week or so. I do not consider these increase since I intend to reunite the queens with their hives post swarm period.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

David LaFerney said:


> Yes I know, those are the ugliest boxes you have ever seen...


Come on David there's no ugly bee boxes . It's what's in side that counts you have to find the inter beauty.
Looks like healthy nucs.:thumbsup:


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

I updated the overwinter challenge spreadsheet to add the two columns requested.

I also started a spreadsheet titled "Harvest Bee Fun! - Bees, Bee Products & Services". It is a work in progress. Right now I am not sure what people want to track and how precisely. I put on there a place for season goals, honey harvest, wax harvest, propolis harvest, pollen harvest, pollination services, etc... I'm not sure how many people collect propolis so not sure that column is worth having. I am struggling with how to show increase without having a ton of columns. I have one for Daniel Y that captures increase that happened overwinter, but how do we want to track new colonies as to honey harvest? Can I lump packages and nuc purchases together or do you want to keep them separate? What about cutouts and swarm catching? Those aren't purchases but they are increases that don't come from your own hives. And so it goes...if you have thoughts or recommendations on this let me know. I want to get it a bit more cleaned up before I start a new thread for it and post the link. Thanks in advance for any suggestions!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

You forget Daniel there is a break even point.... if you lose 80% of your hives and then increase what's left 300% you are still left with less than what you went into winter with. Losses take their toll but they do free up some resources on the flip side.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

GLOCK said:


> Come on David there's no ugly bee boxes . It's what's in side that counts you have to find the inter beauty.
> Looks like healthy nucs.:thumbsup:


Well, here's what is inside...










Not exactly a nuc - double 8 frame mediums - about the same as a regular 10 frame deep single.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

nice david, bees all the way to the bottom?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Yesindeedy. Brood supers and countermeasures scheduled for Wednesday. I reversed the boxes 2-3 weeks ago and they have just about all expanded the brood nest to fill most of both boxes. We've had a pretty fair maple bloom in that time, and they've been able to fend for their selves and put on a little weight. Lot's of brood now though, and the populations are going to skyrocket. About that time though.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> Well, here's what is inside...
> Not exactly a nuc - double 8 frame mediums - about the same as a regular 10 frame deep single.


Looking great! How long have you been feeding them over the top?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

JRG13 said:


> You forget Daniel there is a break even point.... if you lose 80% of your hives and then increase what's left 300% you are still left with less than what you went into winter with. Losses take their toll but they do free up some resources on the flip side.


By my method of counting that is a 40% loss. I also tend to not forget what such a loss continues to cost me. For this reason I do not compensate my goals due to losses. My goal is set according to the highest number of colonies I had. So if I want to increase 4 fold and I had 25 colonies this would mean the final number is 100. If in the process I loose two hives the goal is still 100. If I do not the loss compounds. 2 hives becomes 8 and if I then increase again it increases by that factor. another 4 fold increase would elevate that 2 hive loss to 32. I have set my goal for this year and then lost the queen to a nuc due to robbing. the goal has not been adjusted. I just know one more days exact details on how getting to that goal will look.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> Looking great! How long have you been feeding them over the top?


All winter - sugar starting in early Dec, hard candy with pollen sub beginning in mid Jan. I took the food and shims off about a week ago. They were fed up to weight in early fall though.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

We are down to the final week! Time to get into your hives (if weather permits) or observe activity so that you can complete your overwintered colony reporting. (I know I will be inspecting/manipulating mine in the nice weather this weekend!)

I'm excited to see the totals! If you have already completed reporting, please make sure you check that column on the spreadsheet.

Thank you everyone who has participated!


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

I lost another over the last couple days . Still in the teens at night here and not above 40 yet at all :s
Thing are going to start hitting the 50s this week hope I can start feeding soon. A lot of stores where eaten over the winter.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

GLOCK said:


> I lost another over the last couple days . Still in the teens at night here and not above 40 yet at all :s
> Thing are going to start hitting the 50s this week hope I can start feeding soon. A lot of stores where eaten over the winter.


Really sorry to hear that GLOCK. This winter sure seems determined to linger on.

What was your overwinter loss like last year? Mine was 100% (both of two nuc sized colonies) so this year is an improvement even at 60% (3 of 5). I learned a lot both times so hopefully next year is better yet. We'll see how the spring mite count goes. I'm thinking of doing it Sunday when the weather is up to 70 but it depends on what the clusters look like (if they can spare the bees). They should be about double by then from what I saw last time so I think it will be fine.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

GLOCK said:


> I lost another over the last couple days . Still in the teens at night here and not above 40 yet at all :s
> Thing are going to start hitting the 50s this week hope I can start feeding soon. A lot of stores where eaten over the winter.


If one lives in Snow Shoe I guess one can expect long cold winters
We can't control the weather. Hopefully your thriving hives are strong so you can quickly split and build back up. Perhaps harsh winters are meant to keep addicted beeks from covering all their land, and that of others, with hives


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Colleen O. said:


> Really sorry to hear that GLOCK. This winter sure seems determined to linger on.
> 
> What was your overwinter loss like last year?.


Last year I lost 9 out of 19 but I had lost 5 earlier to VARROA so I lost total 14 in 2012.
Now this past year has been 10 out of 25 total so far guess I have to learn a little more about bee nutrition been a hard winter that's a for sure .


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

WBVC said:


> If one lives in Snow Shoe I guess one can expect long cold winters
> We can't control the weather. Hopefully your thriving hives are strong so you can quickly split and build back up. Perhaps harsh winters are meant to keep addicted beeks from covering all their land, and that of others, with hives


I will be splitting and making queens and building for winter I have bee equipment every where and enough to make 60 nucs and 50 DBL.deeps so yes I am addicted.  I can not wait to get busy .


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I may not have a warm-enough day to open the hives until April 1. Is it OK to delay reporting until then? I know I still have live bees in each colony, but the question of colony size matters, doesn't it?

Enj.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

enjambres said:


> I may not have a warm-enough day to open the hives until April 1. Is it OK to delay reporting until then? I know I still have live bees in each colony, but the question of colony size matters, doesn't it?
> 
> Enj.


While it would be nice to know about colony strength or health (I plan to put that in the "of note" column) I don't think everyone in the north is going to be able to do that. I imagine a few will be lucky to have days warm enough that the bees are flying and will have to base their count on observing that. (This can be deceptive though.)

To answer your question, this challenge goes THRU April 1st so if that is the day you report it is just fine. I was thinking of giving people the first few days of April to get their numbers in and then doing the tally that first Saturday evening (April 5th). I had decided to wait and see how many people got their final reporting done by this Sunday night to see if it would be needed. (I didn't mention it in the hope that it would encourage timely reporting...just doing so now because you asked.)


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## chr157y (Feb 14, 2013)

Added my final info. My one top bar hive is south eastern PA is booming! My queen is nasty as can be. I think that's what has kept them going. They're srong bees. I'll be splitting the hive at the end of April to try and calm her down. If she stays nasty, I'll turn her into swarm lure. I'm upset at the idea of crushing such a resiliant queen, but she's just not nice.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

chr157y said:


> Added my final info. My one top bar hive is south eastern PA is booming! My queen is nasty as can be. I think that's what has kept them going. They're srong bees. I'll be splitting the hive at the end of April to try and calm her down. If she stays nasty, I'll turn her into swarm lure. I'm upset at the idea of crushing such a resiliant queen, but she's just not nice.


Put her in a nuc and let the foragers and defenders go to the original location. They usually calm down some in a smaller colony. Then you can let her build back up. If the hive is still hard to manage, kill her then. In the meantime you'll get production of bees and maybe honey during the time of year when you have a flow.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

WBVC, no words of wisdom? With 15 hives all making it through despite being a first year you must be doing a lot right. Cheers!


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

chr157y said:


> Added my final info. My one top bar hive is south eastern PA is booming! My queen is nasty as can be. I think that's what has kept them going. They're srong bees. I'll be splitting the hive at the end of April to try and calm her down. If she stays nasty, I'll turn her into swarm lure. I'm upset at the idea of crushing such a resiliant queen, but she's just not nice.


My colony with the best mite count is a little defensive. Not nasty but there is no going in to put syrup in without suiting up, no manipulations without suiting up, etc... When I look in their window they all hurry over to look back. They don't bother me as long as I stay out of their way and their hive. I can inspect and do get some head butting but mostly it seems like curiosity. They come out to see what the disturbance is about, and only if I squish bees do they set off the alarm. From the beginning they were this way and have done really well so far. I wonder if a little defensiveness is a good thing, and if we try to breed it out we are losing something important. (Not mean and nasty but not suitless complacent either.) I had an Italian cordovan package that was a real dud but ever so sweet and gentle so the contrast makes me wonder.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks to Colleen for doing this spreadsheet...it is great info for all. Hopefully it will be posted each year and over time trends can be followed.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Colleen O. said:


> WBVC, no words of wisdom? With 15 hives all making it through despite being a first year you must be doing a lot right. Cheers!


I have no wisdom as I am so new at this.

I will say friends a few blocks away purchased packages from the same source I did and hired a professional beek to manage their hives. They had 4 hives and all died over the winter. They have just restocked.

I believe one hive of mine was Queenless when I checked the frames last week. Lots of bees but no brood so I have given them the option of taking on a new Mated Queen. They didn't attack the Queen cage so expect they needed her. I will check in a few days to see if she has been released. I have no idea what would have happened to the original Queen if she did go missing.

Re my hives:

I did not wrap.
I did have upper and lower entrances...tiny ones. 
I did use quilt boxes and put some insulation board under the outer covers ...the outer covers are just plywood...not metal.
I did give the hives chunks of solid sugar in November.
I did treat for mites.

I think I had a lot of luck


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

WBVC said:


> I have no wisdom as I am so new at this.
> 
> I will say friends a few blocks away purchased packages from the same source I did and hired a professional beek to manage their hives. They had 4 hives and all died over the winter. They have just restocked.
> 
> ...


Do you have any idea what was done in their hives versus the things you think worked for you? I.E. quilts may be very helpful to reduce condensation and heat loss in the hive, did they use them? That kind of thing.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

That I don't know as they don't care for their own hives.

I can say that one of my hives must have had a lot of die off in the fall as when I opened the hives the bottom board was deep with dead mouldy bees that blocked the lower entrance. There are still bees in 2 deeps and also brood in each deep so it seems they did OKwith just a tiny upper entrance. Without that upper entrance they could not have gotten out. I also think the mould was present because of poor ventilation in that hive. I think I have learned to clear bottom boards when I put bees away for winter....but it is so much effort to lift off and put on the boxes.
Seven of my hives are mainly in the shade. I know I should move them but then again they lived so I will probably leave them alone through to the winter.
I am not convinced I am totally OK with regards to survival as we have more cold/ wet weather ahead and I now have them in their summer set up....having bees with brood and seeing them collect pollen on nicer days makes me guardedly optimistic


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

What WBVC did for winter is mostly what I have done. Additionaly, I fed in the fall to top up the hives food supply also insulate with 2inch styrofoam and black paper. This is my first year using quilt boxes. Interior of hives stayed warm and moisture was not a problem. Used notch up with inner cover to negate any moisture problems on top side of inner cover.

I also used 2 x 1/2 inch side openings in reducer.

Ialso used a 2 1/2 inch feed rim with 3/4 round entrance hole.

I am excited about the strength of my 3 surviving hives. I lost one because I didn't deal with the tracheal mite problem early enough.

Appears to be a good recipe for successful overwintering.


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## chr157y (Feb 14, 2013)

Colleen - I think you're right. I also agree with your description. They are definitely defensive, maybe not mean and nasty. Unfortunately, I always seem so squish a few bees, which they don't like. Since they all come out when I open the hive, I have a hard time getting the top bars in without some collateral damage. Instead of the typical hive smell, I only smell bananas. My season started with just a veil and gloves. As they kept requeening and getting meaner, it became a jacket, jeans, and rubberbands around my pants. 

I'm really hoping they calm down. My 5 and 3 year old are always out and about when I work the bees, and my 5 year old wants to start helping.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I know we are just about to the end of this, but I thought of another simple piece of data which could be helpful - Did you make a substantial honey crop with these hives last year?

Just a thought.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

This was my first year and started late. The 5 hives that started early May produced enough honey for me to leave each a deep of honey over a single deep of brood. I then held back another 4 dadant honey supers as 4 of the 10 hives I started the end on May...on of which turned out to be Queenless ...did not make enough honey to have deep over a brood deep and I gave each a dadant of honey from the first 5 hives. After leaving 5 deeps and 4 dadants of honey beyond the brood boxes for the bees I harvested close to 3 five gal pails of honey for us. Doesn't sound like much but 10 of the hives missed most of the flow and were subsidized by the 5 started well into the flow. I was OK with what we harvested but am hoping to get more this year...if the weather ever co operates! Harvesting honey is not as rewarding as seeing your bees fly in the spring


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> I know we are just about to the end of this, but I thought of another simple piece of data which could be helpful - Did you make a substantial honey crop with these hives last year?
> 
> Just a thought.


I got 250 lbs of honey from 4 production size hives last year. My Top Bar produced honey but I did not harvest any of it. The remaining 18 colonies where either swarms captured last year or starts made in July and August.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Happy April 1st! Today is the day to get your reporting completed. I added a spot to put an X in to show you have done that. Thanks again to all who participated.

I have been working on the summer version of this called "Harvest Bee Fun - Bees, Products, & Services". I will try to post a link for it in a new thread tonight. I plan to leave the overwinter totals and configuration information on it from the participants who complete their reporting by then. If you have completed reporting but don't wish to be automatically included just let me know and I will take you off.


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## pascal (Oct 1, 2010)

Do my report also but not sure overwinter is done yet!


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

pascal said:


> Do my report also but not sure overwinter is done yet!
> View attachment 9871


WOW!! I almost added a column for people to list if they considered winter over and when it usually ends. Guess I should have! I would list it in the Of Note column this time and I will put it on if we do this again. Really tough to hit a "Sweet Spot" covering so much territory.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

How do I get the spreadsheet to you?


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## pascal (Oct 1, 2010)

well Colleen, this is not an usual year, but I must advocate that I should see some mortality in the next two weeks when weak queens will fail. That will surely change my rate (good years are around 10% mortality). Our provincial statistical agency ask our number at the first of May, probably the same thing in all northern territories.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Acebird said:


> How do I get the spreadsheet to you?


 If you mean how do you get to the spreadsheet, follow this link:
Hive Overwintering Challenge Spreadsheet


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Looks like I have the 2nd worst survival rate 60% :s And I thought I knew what I was doing. O well I can only get better . I still have 15 hives to build from and make honey with I am hoping for a good year.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Colleen O. said:


> WOW!! I almost added a column for people to list if they considered winter over and when it usually ends.


Winter is over for the bees, when you see the first round of fuzzy young bees orienting. It means we are now onto the fresh young bees, and the long lived winter bees have done what they needed to do.

The second sign of winter being done, we have the first blooming dandelion today. I haven't seen the young bees orienting yet, but, it's only a matter of a a few days now till we see that.

I just updated our totals, we lost 3 over the winter, all of them froze in small clusters when we had cold snaps.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Colleen O. said:


> If you mean how do you get to the spreadsheet, follow this link:
> Hive Overwintering Challenge Spreadsheet


No I filled out the spreadsheet and now what do I do with it?


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Acebird said:


> No I filled out the spreadsheet and now what do I do with it?


 I plan to tally the categories of best and worst overwintering survival. Beyond that, I find the information of what is working/where versus what isn't working/where interesting and educational and hope I am not alone in that. If you have any use for it beyond the tally, that is up to you. Thanks for adding your info!

If we do this over a few years maybe we will see some trends or learn from what others are successful with in our areas and improve our numbers.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I didn't realize the spreadsheet was inter active. cool.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

There are quite a few who still need to finish reporting but preliminary results from those who have completed it looks like David LaFerney takes the challenge with 100% overwintering survival of 27 hives. Great work David!!!!

I'm going to give everyone until this Saturday to complete reporting and then I'll give the final results tally on Sunday. I'm going to look at it several ways (I.E. Overall, by hive quantity ranges, Zone, Treat/Treatment Free)

YAY Spring and bee season!


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Winter is not over for us. Have updated the best I can. Bees have had a few cleansing flight days and am feeding candy blocks in a feed rim, but we will not be unwrapping for 4-6 weeks.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

mgolden said:


> Winter is not over for us. Have updated the best I can. Bees have had a few cleansing flight days and am feeding candy blocks in a feed rim, but we will not be unwrapping for 4-6 weeks.


Thanks! Yes, I understand. I was really ready for spring this year. Seeing the new bees hatching was like a miracle. Hope your spring starts soon!


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

mgolden said:


> Winter is not over for us. Have updated the best I can. Bees have had a few cleansing flight days and am feeding candy blocks in a feed rim, but we will not be unwrapping for 4-6 weeks.


+1

We aren't out of the woods here in upstate NY. But very cool spreadsheet idea, I added my detail for fun. The next few weeks here will be a decider for my bees. I know I have at least one colony that requeened late last year and I am not certain they will pull through. Hoping though,... hoping!


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

all lived! 7 out of 7 building up nice for the flow!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I read about those that still have snow covering their hives. and think back over the last 3 months. Winter broke for us in early January and bees have been in build up since. we are now into our second week of winter attempting to return. My line with working with bees is 55 degrees. we have had 3 months of one day being over 55 then a day under 55. Not sure which woudl be worse. still setting and waiting for things to start or to be doing this daily biting of the nails thing. In all I expect it to be a bad year being a drought and all. I am looking to move my first hives away form my back yard. not sure just yet where I want to move them. My original location is now looking like the worst of choices.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

colleen, are you still around and are you going to set up a spreadsheet for this year? i thought last year's was pretty cool.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Hi Squarepeg,

I've been busy and not on the forum for a while but I'd be happy to start an overwintering spreadsheet for this year. I'll try to get it done tomorrow.

Colleen


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

How about a recap of last year's results?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Colleen O. said:


> Hi Squarepeg,
> 
> I've been busy and not on the forum for a while but I'd be happy to start an overwintering spreadsheet for this year. I'll try to get it done tomorrow.
> 
> Colleen


happy to see your post colleen. many thanks for your work on the spreadsheet.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

cg3 said:


> How about a recap of last year's results?


i don't know enough about spreadsheets to understand what if any reports can be run from last year's. it's interesting to scroll down and look at the different results turned in by the various contributors.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

you might take a look at Google forms (part of google docs). supposedly, it feeds the info into the spreadsheet for you. someone else on beesource was using it recently.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Two things --- I will do a Google Form that feeds a similar spreadsheet. (However, I did this for the bloom and swarm threads that are stickies, and these posts got deleted by the mods, never explained why).

I did some very preliminary data reduction on the 2013-14 spreadsheet.
( I did not deal with the "survivial %, since this looks to be very fractured and contingent data).

Observations: The responsive population is very inexperienced: median "beekeeping years" was 2 years, median beekeeping years in the TF sub-category was 1.75. Median experience of the Topbar responders was one year.

The responsive population maintains small apiaries: median fall colony count was 4.5 for the total responders. In the TF sub-category, median size was 3 hives, in the Treated category, median size was 8 hives.

In the TF sub-category, 37% count mites (including observing drop on SBB), in the Treated group, 62% performed mite checks. The median experience of respondents performing mite checks was lower than those that did not (1.75 vs. 2.75 years)

The "experience years" parameter indicates the survey population is biased to very new keepers.


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