# Cross comb issues



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

don't be afraid to smoke them a bit.
Just give a few puffs of smoke around the outside of the hive to make the bees go in. Then re-puff them when they start to come out and investigate. Set the smoker upwind from them so a trickle will float their way.
If you plan on fixing the comb,..the sooner the better. But you can definitely leave it alone and just harvest it clear-cut style later.
However they will build a crooked comb next to a crooked comb, so most of the combs that are yet to be built will more than likely be crooked.
I don't wear a suit but I do smoke the bees a little. The smoke just blocks them from smelling pheremones which they use to communicate in the hive.
When you say cross comb do you mean totally sideways or just crooked?


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## BelleJanelle (May 31, 2012)

Thanks for the reply! I wish I could draw a picture for you... I'll do my best to describe it. My top bar hive has peaks for them to build from. They seem to be starting the comb on one bar, then transitioning and finishing the comb on the second bar. If I pull out one bar, it will tear mid way through. I know this is the case on at least three bars worth.

What do you smoke? My father-in-law (beekeeper in the 80s) suggested burlap.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

Here is my cross comb mess up http://youtu.be/nn9unz_3S5U and here is what I use now to attach the comb 
























The cross comb was from over a year ago and after they were put back in straight and started building right they even fixed the balance of the crossed comb that I did not bother with because it had brood in it.
It is all staight now and if you have straight comb to help with the starter great if not attach some comb straight on a bar and they will catch on fast.


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## BelleJanelle (May 31, 2012)

Thanks--I watched your video earlier today and was thankful that I'm not THAT crooked!  I'm just trying to get up the guts to do what you did, or come to terms with the fact that I'm going to be a little off for the first year.


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## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

you can smoke with anything almost.

I have used pine straw, dried lemongrass, dried weeds from the veg garden, crispy leaves... whatever. fix your cross comb before that video happens to you.!!


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

My bees seem to be more defensive of the honey combs also. As soon as I hit the brood nest they calm down some.
I would recommend smoking your bees. It doesn't traumatize them as much as you'd think.
With your cross combing, the sooner you fix it the better. I use hair clips on brood combs. Honeycombs I take.
How full is your hive? Can you move the crossed up combs all the way to the back of the hive?
Maybe they will clean them out and abandon them. Or you can just cut out all the crossed honeycomb and feed
it back to them inside the hive. Oh also, always at the least wear a veil, that's important just for safety concerns.
A bee sting anywhere else but your eye won't blind you.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

What you describe Janelle doesn't sound like true cross combing. Your bees are curving comb off of one bar encroaching onto the next because of nectar/honey storage. Once the mid rib of the comb crosses over to the next bar it is cross comb. To get them back on track shave the curved part of the comb back to the bar the comb should be on. Using a top bar that is split in half clamp a 3" strip of foundation between the two halves. Place it next to the comb that you shaved back so that any new combs built beyond the foundation starter will be built off of its straightness. Look to see if the mid rib of your combs are offset of there guides. If so you should be placing spacers between the bars to get the combs built on the guides proper. The deep foundation strip will act as a barrier to give you a straight comb running down the center of the bar.


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## BelleJanelle (May 31, 2012)

Steven Ogborn said:


> Honeycombs I take.
> How full is your hive? Can you move the crossed up combs all the way to the back of the hive?
> Maybe they will clean them out and abandon them. Or you can just cut out all the crossed honeycomb and feed
> it back to them inside the hive. Oh also, always at the least wear a veil, that's important just for safety concerns.
> A bee sting anywhere else but your eye won't blind you.


Thanks Steve. I like your suggestion of just taking the honey comb and letting them start again with a clean, straight surface (once I get in my new location and make sure I'm level). I'm also going to take your suggestion of getting more protective gear. I've been timid to work the hive because I've got hardly any protection. I realize that if I am going to get in there and fix things, I have to smoke them and wear protection. I'm going to look around for a good online source for gear.


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## BelleJanelle (May 31, 2012)

Thanks Delta. I'm not sure I completely understand what you are saying. Are you saying that cross comb means that it's more perpendicular, and mine is just curving comb? I had a thought that it could be because they originally faced south, and now they are facing northeast. Just a thought. 

I do have spacers between the bars, but they just cross right over them to the next bar. Are you suggesting multiple spacers?


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

I use the wood chips for BBQ smoking. You can get it in mesquite, hickory, apple, cherry, pecan, etc.
I like mesquite. It's not expensive for one to a few hives. You can find it at almost any store.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> I'm not sure I completely understand what you are saying. Are you saying that cross comb means that it's more perpendicular, and mine is just curving comb?


Yes.

It's hard to know for sure without the visual of pics but if the curving is due to honey/nectar storage your bees are over extending the cell walls in the area of the curve. This in turn causes them to curve the next new comb being built around the previous combs over extended cell walls to maintain their bee space. It will also become worse with each additional new comb and will become cross combs if the bees are allowed to have at her. You shouldn't need to add more than one spacer and makes me wonder if the combs have been built well off center of your guides. True cross combs is the first comb built by the bee which will have its mid rib running across two or more top bars. A small amount of the cell walls that extend over to the next bar is expectable and could indicate the need of a spacer.


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

BelleJanelle, it sounds like you have about the same problem I did. I've never heard the official definition of cross comb that Delta gave, but to each their own I guess. My bees were off like yours, but were crossing up to three bars. If you correct them, and continue to do so, they will learn and stop building it crooked. In fact, on one bar, I cut off about half the comb that was crooked, by just cutting a straight line from the bottom up to the bar. I rehung the removed part on a new bar using a hair clip. But what's funny, is that for weeks the bees did not build on that cut face. However on the rehung piece they stitched it all up, and now you can't even tell that it was a salvage, aside from the hair clip that I need to pull out. 

I have read as much as I can about fixing cross comb, but have found no correlations. I have not seen any proof to the theory that they build in a given N/S direction, or that having your hive off balanced even has an effect. Just look at a few pictures of feral cutouts, and you'll see that the bees tend to just start a line and run with it. I had wooden tongues on my bars as well, but the bees paid them no mind. The best alignment tool for straight comb is straight comb itself. As Delta recommended using the foundation as a starter strip. The bees will hopefully recognize that as a new piece of straight comb and follow the guide. 

What I did in my hive was fixed a few bars initially so it was good and straight. From then forward, each time I added bars, I would add them between two straight bars. This results in the two straight combs being the best guide you can get. Be careful with this method though that you don't stretch the brood nest thin. I was able to do it easy down here since there was not much risk of it getting below 70 degrees at night. Not sure what you can expect in Denver. But for the last few weeks, I have not added bars in the brood nest and have opened up the back of the hive for honey storage. For some reason they skipped a bar, and pulled a honeycomb about 2.5" thick! I had to harvest it out because I could not re-align it with the rest of the bars when I moved the bees to a bigger box. 

It's a shame you tossed that heavy brood comb. I wanted to cry reading that. I had one comb full of brood that was also too heavy for one hair clip. I cut it in half horizontally and rehung it on two bars. Yes you loose some brood as you slash the comb through the middle, but in just a week or so the bees had rebuilt the two combs and had two full bars, from what otherwise would have been tossed out. 

Just get the girls lined out and you shouldn't have too many more problems. good luck!


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## BelleJanelle (May 31, 2012)

Thanks for clarifying. I am pretty sure you are right--the first curved comb is in an area where there wasn't spacers because I thought they were still building brood. Now, I'm pretty sure they transitioned to honey earlier than I though and didn't have enough room because I don't have spacers in the brood bars. It's all making sense now... You have been very helpful!


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## BelleJanelle (May 31, 2012)

Tom- Thanks for the feedback. I'm totally new and I really had no idea how to save the comb. In retrospect, I probably could have done something to reattach it, but honestly, I feel like I have too many bees building too fast as it is! I just feel bad messing with nature. They obviously wanted that comb for brood and I stole it. Sigh...

At this point, I'm anxiously waiting for my new hood/jacket to come in the mail. I'm ill-prepared to do major work in the hive until I have better protection. They have now almost built to the back wall, so I'm going to see if there is any capped honey that I can pull out of the middle to give them some room, then hopefully, I can also clean up and remove or straighten any other crooked comb. I'll get a few more spacers, too... Thanks everyone!!! You are invaluable!


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

You may have too small a hive. What is the length of the hive? I'm surprised that they could have filled out a hive from a spring swarm. Those girls must really be working hard. 

You can pickup a cheap tyvec suit from a paint store and a cheap bug veil from a sporting goods store, but if you do that make sure the veil is plenty big and covers everything well. Dish washing gloves give great protection, nitrile gloves will give you great dexterity, both are very hot though. Bee gloves protect you great but you have no dexterity. 

On the otherhand you do have a general feeling of invisibility when wearing a proper bee suit.


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## BelleJanelle (May 31, 2012)

I have a golden mean hive, 28 ½” L x 18” W x 10” H. I'm telling you--they are going to town. I checked last night and they are working on the initial foundation for the last bar. 

Thanks for the tips on the gloves. I need the dexterity and flexibility--those leather gloves are the WORST. I love the idea of dish gloves. I orders a cheap jacket/veil online, so it's not a "proper bee suit", but it will certainly create enough of a barrier to make me feel more comfortable.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I've seen other posts from folks with golden mean hives that make me think they may be too small. (length, not the other dimensions) 42 inches seems to come up a lot as far as optimal length, and someone posted a while back about a 6 foot hive! You may want to consider getting together a larger hive that you can transfer into and use that hive as a nuc in the future. You probably dont want to hear this since this is a new hive for you, but you have got a serious hive going there. That is the one bad thing about top bars, when they are full you can't easily super them, although there are folks that do that as well.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Btw, you should be just fine with an inspection jacket and veil, you don't need coveralls, just wear long pants.


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## AkDan (Apr 13, 2012)

Mann lake sells a hooded jacket for 59.99 minus 20 for first time buyers. I liked it enough I bought two lol. It does lend itself to ball caps more than no cap wearers I think for me at least.

I had some comb jump bars initially. I pulled both bars removed the crossed portion and pushed it back on the right bar. I had little comb built and the bees fixed it up nice. I also have bars with the v point for them to build on.

I smoke with rolled burlap. Had some in the shed works good smells funny though. I had issues playing with grass and starts, getting hot smoke. Bees didn't like it at all.

I have two goldenmeans. They are going to town in one. The 2nd hive not so much. If I can get some time I plan on stretching the hive out. Have u thought about doing a split? Maybe start some nucs to over winter for next year?


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## Che Guebuddha (Feb 4, 2012)

I got a very nice smoker as a present but am not using it and I never will  because thanks to Phil Chandler I found that a plastic spray bottle with plain water works like a charm  bees dont like to be outside if its rainy so when i spray them they all move into the hive  
In nature smoke is connected with fire so logic sais they do get alarmed. Rain drops mean no panic but simply go under the roof 
I too have problems with comb curving at the ends. I try to cut 2 inch into the comb where attached and simply push it back inline with the top bar hive. So far they still go back to curving it. Im sure there is a reason to this. Nature does not tend to be linear but curved. Im thinking whether streight top bars are the perfect solution?


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## Ozarks Honey Company (Apr 18, 2012)

Rtone, 

I live near you in Rogersville.  I would love to come and see a real TBH in action sometime!!! My mentor and I are experimenting with top bars, but in a Langstroth box... Haing good luck so far. 

Belle,

What we are doing to keep them from drawing out cross comb is either taking a piece of 1 inch wax foundation and putting it in the top bar as a starter strip to help get them going in the right direction, or we will melt a bead of wax down the middle of the bar.

Either one usually gets them started off right.

Just a suggestion,


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## BelleJanelle (May 31, 2012)

AkDan- As a first timer, I'm not even sure what it means to do a split or start some nucs.  I just thought this would be simple, backyard beekeeping.... I've decided that the heatwave in Colorado has caused my bees to think it's August instead of June, so they have made more progress than a typical summer. I haven't confirmed this theory with anyone else in Colorado--so if you're ALSO in a heatwave and have an early full box, I'd love to hear from you!


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## BelleJanelle (May 31, 2012)

I like the idea of water, but I heard that's not good for the honey...? So unless I'm sure it's all capped, I could just make a giant mess...?

I also agree with your theory. It seems like they are going to curve the comb naturally. I gave them a guide with a rub of wax on the point, but they are still jumping around. Oh well. It's an adventure and I really don't want to try to manipulate nature. That's why I'm doing top bar after all, so I think I'm just going to deal with their inconsistencies.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Phil knows a lot about bees, but what works for a master may not work for an apprentice. I've seen a video of Phil doing a chop and crop with no gloves, not even nitril, which to seems a bit masochistic (and he did get at least one sting). Yes, you have better dexterity with no gloves, but the nitril gloves don't seem to reduce mine dexterity, they just make my hands sweat like crazy.

Smoke has been used on bees forever, probably because it works so well. Yes, squirt bottles are fairly new, but they have been available for a long time. I would advise using a little smoke and let them calm down and then move in, don't go crazy with it. Once you get used to your bees you will learn their moods and be able to judge it better for yourself. And you can always have a squirt bottle since they are cheap.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

OHC you are welcome to come down just let me know, I had 4 hives after 2 cut outs just a couple of weeks ago but had to combine the cutouts and requeen they should be releasing her today or tomorrow.
Just took some honey out of a swarm hive from this spring also, at this point all of my hives are building straight comb I have found that it just takes some up front observation and once they are going straight then tend to stay that way.


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## AkDan (Apr 13, 2012)

Belle, 

Let me start I'm a first year beek. I didnt know the goldenmeans had this issue till after I built to hives and hived my bees. Than again with our short fast summers and long winters...a golden mean may be the perfect size. I built the hives...but had to buy the bars, ran out of time before I had to pick up my bees. Been reading a ton, books, on here and surfing. (mike bush's page and fatbeemans stuff I seem to go to over and over again.... and I probably got none of it right so read with caution ).

After reading about tbh's in general (again after I was hived already), it seems this is their shortcoming...dealing with the hive when you run out of room, preferablly before it gets to that point or they may swarm regardless. (and in my opinion dealing with feeders but thats another topic I'm working some kinks out of, again lack of room!!!) If you're not set up to go verticle you still have options. First I'd ask yourself whats the direction you'd want to go. If expanding is an option, than a split might be in order...basically starting a new hive with a part of your hive...either let one requeen itself (if you have time), or buy a queen and introduce it into a a hive. I feel tbh's are better suited to this after thinking about your question...moving the false back basically creates a full hive, into a nuc or mini hive.... essentially the same thing as a nuc with the option to expand.

Next option is to create a nuc...a mini hive you are going to go into winter on...youtube Mike Palmer, its a long 2 part video but well worth the time! You have a couple options here. over winter the nuc as a backup incase your main hive(s) dont make it. Start a new hive come spring with an overwintered nuc....create more nuc's if they keep growing (again or they'll swarm), and/or sell them again come spring to new beeks or others who failed to overwinter. or use these nucs to raise queens. or if they are very successful a combination of them all???

Your last option would be to keep them from growing without expanding...you've got to take some kind of action (atleast its what I'm grasping)....ie remove comb and add more room via adding new combless bars or they'll do it themselves and likely swarm. Grab a bar with no brood if you have no honey stores and save it. If they dont have room, they'll swarm.....this would add room and give them something to do, ie build comb and lay more eggs/pollen/honey. It also gives you spare combs in case you busted one up bad enough you couldnt repair it. If nothing else you could render the wax, or use it as a feeder comb (sugar misted with water replaced in the hive to overwinter on, learned that one yesteday talking about overwintering and thought it was pretty slick), either way keep it on reserve. Eventually they'll start backfilling with honey and you'll be removing a comb or possibly two full of honey.... 

I only have 2 goldenmeans...my only and first hives. one is almost out of room also, though my winter is fast approaching already. I'm thinking of still robbing bars in the good hive with capped brood and moving it to my weak hive. I've got atleast 6 bars waiting to go in, and they have 0 fully drawn comb. They're coming around though so I think I'll be ok even if I dont transplant. I also thought about starting a nuc. In my situation it may not make it....either way if they dont, it will hopefully keep my hives from swarming and give me a headstart next year on a 3rd hive. I plan on stretching the mean plans out a bit for a bigger (longer) overall hive. So far I'm pleased with what I'm getting...though again I'm new, I dont know what the possibitlies are...good...bad. 

Thats my take on it after a bunch of reading and chatting with people from here, locally and reading what I can get my hands on between day jobs. I will say the window is worth the headache....I check on the gals every day, sometimes a few times through it. if I dont have windows...I'll need more hives to keep me preoccupied . Again I'm probabl off so take this with a grain of salt and do some more digging to confirm/dissprove my ramblings and idears.

If I'm wrong please forgive me and dont be afraid to correct it....I'm learning also! Now if I could only figure out how to remember all this stuff I come acrossed lol......


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

AkDan said:


> ...youtube Mike Palmer, its a long 2 part video but well worth the time!


AkDan, do you have a link to the video you mentioned? I would like to see it as well, but when I search youtube for Mike Palmer I get lots of hits, but only a couple on bees, and they don't seem to cover much on nucs, and they are short. 

I feel your pain on remembering stuff, I wish I would have gotten into this when I have more bee space in my brain!


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## BelleJanelle (May 31, 2012)

Thanks Dan! I've decided that I want to keep this a small operation, so I'm not going to split or nuc or any of that stuff. I'm just going to pull out a couple of full honey combs, add a few empty bars, and let them continue to do there thing. Beekeeping is just one of many hobbies for me, so I've got to keep it simple!


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

You may want to build out a nuc. It is cheap insurance, and if it builds up you can probably
Sell it. Sounds like you have enough brood for a split.


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## AkDan (Apr 13, 2012)

Hey I am at work. Google mike Palmer nucs, look for sustainable apiary part 1 of 2. . It's a Vimeo vid not you tube sorry. I will post the link when I get home tonight if u don't find it. Haven't figured out how to post links on my phone.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

No problem, I'll be able to find it now. Thanks!


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## AkDan (Apr 13, 2012)

in case anyone wants to watch it......here it is. (finally got a few minutes on a real computer lol!).

http://vimeo.com/23178333


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