# Ok... I need answers



## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

CCD possibly?


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## chrisd4421 (Oct 11, 2010)

How close was the cluster To the honey? How tight was the cluster? Softball? Basketball? How cold has it been for the last few weeks?

I am thinking the 300 bees sounds like a small cluster and if it was cold enough, the swarm had issues even move a frame away to get to the honey.

Chris in NJ


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mr.Beeman said:


> Why would all the bees leave? It makes no sense.


Welcome to beekeeping. You might get ten answers but you won't know what happen until it happens again knowing what the possibilities could be. Do you have one hive or multiple hives?


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Were the 300 clustered on the frames or on the bottom board? Any Pictures?


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

The bees were on two frames towards the top right next to the honey. Literally, there wer 300 or so dead bees left in the hive. Very few on the bottom board maybe 20.

I will post pics tomorrow. I did have three hives... down to one.

CCD is when the hive just dies right? All the bees dead all at once? The bees in this hive just took off. Wierd that I didn't see them clustered in a nearby bush or tree. Man... this has my mind reeling.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Maybe the live bees had enough warm days to clean out their dead? 300 sounds like a pretty small number. Any chance you are underestimating?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mr.Beeman said:


> CCD is when the hive just dies right?


I think CCD is when the bees are just gone.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

First you would only see mite feces in cells if the colony had been actively producing brood. Second…if the bees were dead, the mites would have fallen off and an alcohol wash wouldn’t have done any good. Third….if there were only a few hundred remaining bees and all the mites had fallen off…even a moderately high infestation would not leave a huge number of mites on the bottom.
I am not saying that it was mites…I’m only saying that you haven’t established that it wasn’t.
Did you test/treat during the season?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> First you would only see mite feces in cells if the colony had been actively producing brood.


Where does the feces go?


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I did test during the season and never found a mite. I checked the bottom board many times.... no mites. Never treated simply because there was no mites to be found.
This morning I took the hive apart completely, no dead mites. You would think I'd find one if I had a problem. 

Wierd thing that may help is that I found the queen on a frame with 100 or so bees. All dead of course. NO superceedure cells, NO queen cells, nothing to indicate she was new.

Lots of head scratching going on this morning. lol


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Where does the feces go?


The bees clean the cells out....feces and all. In a brood producing hive that is simultaneously collapsing from varroa, housecleaning will suffer. When a bee colony goes into a broodless period and is not in iimmediate collapse....those recently used cells will get a clean up.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Mr.Beeman said:


> I did test during the season and never found a mite.


I'm not looking to be confrontational but....all bee colonies in North America have mites. Rather than presuming that I had no mites....I'd reevaluate the testing technique.
Again....I am not saying that varroa were a factor in your bee loss...


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I appreciate the replies and advice. 
Shouldnt I find one dead mite on the bottom board? The bees cant get at it to clean it.
I will say however that I have learned a lot this year and my proceedures on keeping bees will change. I have to help eliminate or at least decrease the chances of this happening again.
I don't believe you are being confrontational beemandan. I'll be the first to let you know though. lol


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Mr.Beeman said:


> I will say however that I have learned a lot this year and my proceedures on keeping bees will change.


And like most of us will do so every year.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

CCD the bees leave and can't navigate to find there way back. Usually leaving a small number of bees and the queen.

There many reasons a hive will abscond. You found the queen so they did not abscond.

How much honey left? Save it for you or your next hive.

I agree there has to be mites somewhere in your hive. Do you have a bottom entrance all the way open? Maybe wind or insect cleared the mite off your bottom board.

A closed SBB with a tray or sticky paper will hold on to those mites, along with other pests.


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## Maryland Beekeeper (Nov 1, 2012)

Sorry about your hive Mr. Beeman  So there were two separate clusters, queen w/ the smaller ? distance between/orientation in box ? which varroa test(s) did you perform/frequency ?
Agree w/ :
-Flower, SBB
-beemandan, - the varroa test you described is not instructive

My feeling ? What was the temp on Dec 22nd ? Warm is a relative term, my guess is if I had popped up for dinner @ your place from MD,(In my LearJet 75)  we would have disagreed on the matter. I would have come in Carhart coveralls and you'd be in shorts  (My cousins are in/around Imlay city) Be that as it may..... When you checked on the 22nd 300 bees looked to you like tons. Why ? Cause they came rushing to the top of the combs to preserve heat. Also, in the hive you describe,(a colony of 300) you are looking for 9 mites, is perhaps a good way to consider varroa ? (my admittedly limited understanding) others will correct my #'s, along with everything else  
Conclusion reached knowing absolutely nothing  
in the end they froze, why were they so weak ? have to go back another inspection. Had the situation been known, could 300+queen have been, extra insulated ? divided off inside hive ? heated ? brought in ? and wintered successfully. would have made for interesting experiment  
Cheers,
Drew


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Drew I appreciate the reply. Actually when I checked on them on the 22nd of Dec. there were 30,000 40,000 plus that were very much alive. When I checked yesterday there were only around 300 or so, but dead.

Warm here is anything above 32 degrees F. lol Seriously it was around 60F.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Maryland Beekeeper said:


> -beemandan, - the varroa test you described is not instructive


What test did I describe?


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

On Dec 22 your low temp was 23.3 deg and your high was 34.4
How do you know that you had "tons of bee's"


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> The bees clean the cells out....feces and all. In a brood producing hive that is simultaneously collapsing from varroa, housecleaning will suffer. When a bee colony goes into a broodless period and is not in iimmediate collapse....those recently used cells will get a clean up.


This is very good to know. I will ad that to my observations.
Thanks


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Popped out a couple of bars to check stores. Bees everwhere. Took less that 30 seconds.

Odd... seemed warmer than that.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

http://www.agweather.geo.msu.edu/mawn/


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

May have been the 20th. Good thing memory is the FIRST thing to go.


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## Maryland Beekeeper (Nov 1, 2012)

not odd... it was warm, to you  also not odd that 3-400 seemed like 30-40k when you pop the top it the cold  If 30k left in winter without queen that would be an event ! you had referred to an alcohol wash test, answers to my other ?'s could be interesting for other reasons if you do post-mortum


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Maryland Beekeeper said:


> -beemandan, - the varroa test you described is not instructive


I'm still trying to understand what this means.......


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Sorry about losing the hive. I generally agree with the statement that all colonies have mites, but statistics say it's not impossible to be mite free with a few hives due to any number of reasons.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Maryland Beekeeper said:


> If 30k left in winter without queen that would be an event !


This could easily be a varroa related collapse. One classic failure mode is that a large population of parasitized bees go into winter. They begin dying. As long as there are flying days, the remaining bees will haul off the carcasses. And over a relatively short time, what was once a hugely populated hive becomes a cluster too small to maintain survivable temperatures when it turns cold. In this fashion, it often seems that the biggest hives are the first to fail.


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## Maryland Beekeeper (Nov 1, 2012)

oh, I was concurring with your previous posts regarding the described varroa test, as I do with the latest one


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

CCD:

Collapsing Colonies
An insufficient number of bees to maintain the amount of brood in the colony.

A workforce composed largely of younger adult bees.

The presence of a queen.

The cluster's reluctance to consume food provided to them by the beekeeper.


Collapsed Colonies

Complete absence of adult bees in colonies, with few or no dead bees in or around colonies. 

The presence of capped brood.

The presence of food stores--both honey and bee bread--that are not robbed by other bees or typical colony pests, such as small hive beetles or wax moths. If robbed, the robbing is delayed by a number of days.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Son of a pup.... sounds like CCD.

Now it all makes sense.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

web address where that information resides:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/in720


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I had something similar to you MrBeeman, a really strong colony going into winter, only to find a completely empty hive in December. Not a dead bee on the bottom board and none on the frames, except young bees trying to hatch out if their cells. I chalk that one up to Varroa though, stupid pest!

The good thing is spring is around the corner and so is swarm season!


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Presence of a queen and stores not robbed out are hallmarks of CCD. I lost 8 hives last year in the winter to varroa. Just as you described BeeGhost. But there was no queen, only emerging young bees. I knew they had mites and choose not to treat. But the absence of mits, presence of a queen in Beeman's hive favors CCD not mites. Nosema Ceranae is a factor in CCD if I remeber correctly. It does not have the defecation symptom as nosema apis does. Bees get sick and fly away to die. Queen stays put. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosema_ceranae


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

When you tested in the summer what method and where did the bees come from? Honey Supers, brood frames, capped or larva stage, feed frames?
And finally, how long were the bees in the alcohol solution before you counted the mites?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The industry has never established what CCD actually is only a definition of its symptoms. Varroa related collapse as Dan describes is not only common it is difficult for someone with little experience to diagnose unless they have been vigilant in checking mite counts. Looking for signs of varroa without a great deal of hands on experience can be quite difficult at times. 
Heres a true story I experienced from 2011. We had "twin" yards of 40 colonies just a mile apart. They were all first year nucs, all hives looked good and produced well throughout the summer. Yard A had its honey crop removed and a thymol treatment placed on them in early September, yard B didn't get it's treatment until a month later and in cool conditions which made the thymol fairly ineffective. By mid October yard A had 38 strong colonies with large clusters and low mite counts. Yard B had dwindled to the point that we were only able to salvage about 15 hives that were generally small clusters that appeared to lack much vitality. An inspection of the bottom boards showed dead mites in unattended corners of the bottom boards on some but not all hives. Mite counts at that point were relatively low as they had been treated twice. Some white flecks could be seen in some of the brood combs but one had to be looking closely. Even with my level of experience I couldn't absolutely prove the problem was varroa because I didn't have any mite count data. Without the companion yard to compare it with I could see where some might consider that it is surely CCD. I choose to believe that my problem was not something unexplained but rather a case of a failure to treat in a timely manner. Could anyone logically argue with that assesment? I remain among those beekeepers (a minority?) who feel there are plausible explanations for most everything and suspect number one must always be threat one.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Hey Jim,

Yes, I would rather pin the problem down any day of the week rather that decide it was CCD. It's kind of like a doctor telling you, yeah, you have these symptoms, but we can't cure them or tell you exactly what caused them.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Mr.Beeman,

Don't be too hard on yourself, this happens to a lot of us. In 2006 I had 10 hives at a yard and I checked on them in early November. They were packed full of bees and all seemed to be well. Three weeks later 8 of the 10 were almost empty with just a handful of dead bees and a queen just as you described. I was disappointed and dumbfounded to say the least. Never did really figure out exactly what caused it, these things just happen sometimes. 

You said you have 1 of your 3 hives left alive. What happened in the other loss?

I'm also curious about you not seeing "any" mites at all. If there were 30,000 bees in the hive last month there should be at least some mites left on the bottom board, even in a healthy hive. Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to be critical of your abilities. Just wondering if the mites might actually be there mixed in with the bottom board debris and you missed spotting them. They are so small, it took me a while to be able to spot them. Once I figured out what I was looking for they were very easy to see. Not saying that's what happened to you, just wanted to throw that out there.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> I choose to believe that my problem was not something unexplained but rather a case of a failure to treat in a timely manner. Could anyone logically argue with that assesment?


No but you treat on a regular bases so if you stop treating it is logical that your loss was due to mites.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Mike I appreciate the gesture.
The other loss was roughly one month prior and the scenario was the same.
Believe me, I looked and looked and looked for mites. I even used a 5x magnifying lens and then I used my flytying magnifier.... ever use one of those?! lol

A mite would look like it could chew your arm off through one of those! lol


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Acebird said:


> No but you treat on a regular bases so if you stop treating it is logical that your loss was due to mites.


I can't say for other peoples bees, but mine show some hygenic behavior. I can tell when mine hive mites by the capped brood pattern. Very seldom have to actually do a roll or drop test.

if you have hygenic bees, and the brood is solid, then you have no mites. Spotty brood can be a sign of mites.

I treat my hygenic bees when the patterns get to bad I treat. If I allow them to struggle with mites long, the SHB will overrun them.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

since the bees keep the center of the cluster around 95 deg.all winter you broke up the cluster by opening up the hive and letting moister into the hive.the hive didn't have enough time to bring the temp back up or getting all the moister out instant freeze.leave hives shut in winter saves alot of head aches...sorry for your loss


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Mr.Beeman said:


> Mike I appreciate the gesture.
> The other loss was roughly one month prior and the scenario was the same.
> Believe me, I looked and looked and looked for mites. I even used a 5x magnifying lens and then I used my flytying magnifier.... ever use one of those?! lol
> 
> A mite would look like it could chew your arm off through one of those! lol


Looking with magnification is helpful but still won't give you an indication of mite numbers. My experience is once you can visually see them you have got serious problems. Varroa are usually wedged totally out of sight in the joint between the thorax and abdomen.  If you really want to learn something with your 5x magnification get a tweezer and begin pulling out pupae (either drone or worker) at about the purple eye stage. You will most likely be amazed at what you see.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> No but you treat on a regular bases so if you stop treating it is logical that your loss was due to mites.


I've got to tell you Ace....this is one of the most twisted pieces of logic I've seen.
The idea that mites only infest hives that have been treated....


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## Maryland Beekeeper (Nov 1, 2012)

I agree w/ frank, to me it is the most logical conclusion from evidence reported


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

"Checked my hive today to find no live bees at all, maybe 300 dead. They were last checked (very quickly) on Dec.22 (it was warm temps) with tons of bees and stores. Stores are all there, no mites on the bottom board or feces, no AFB, no shb, conducted an alcohol wash on the dead bees.... nothing."

The vast majority of bees left days before the 300 froze.

















Seem pretty obvious to me. These pics were taken off the net since I had none to take pics of. lol


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Mr.Beeman said:


> " conducted an alcohol wash on the dead bees.... nothing."


As I believe I pointed out earlier....doing an alcohol wash on dead bees will ususally produce nothing. Once the bees died, the mites died as well and then fell off.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Mr. Beeman, I asked how and where you tested in the bee season and when you tested


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

Beemandan perhaps bees in the north hold on tighter.
In March 2011 I did an alcohol wash on 12 deadouts and found mite levels averaged 6.7% with a low of 1.9% and high of 13.8%.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

JD's Bees said:


> Beemandan perhaps bees in the north hold on tighter.


You might be right JD....imagine what your numbers might have been if none had dropped off!


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Sorry honeyshack,

Alcohol wash, brood chamber with nurse bees, late August maybe early Sept.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

How long in the wash before you counted the mites? and I am assuming that you took the bees from the brood frames, preferably not capped, not feed frames in the brood chamber.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> The idea that mites only infest hives that have been treated....


That is not what I am saying and I think you know it. If you are treating on a schedule meaning you treat whether there is a problem or not the bees become dependent on that treatment schedule. You miss the schedule and crash!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> That is not what I am saying and I think you know it.


Chill Ace…..that was the way it sounded to me.



Acebird said:


> If you are treating on a schedule meaning you treat whether there is a problem or not the bees become dependent on that treatment schedule. You miss the schedule and crash!


The problem exists whether you treat for mites or not. Many of the treatment free proponents advise keeping enough nucs to make up for losses. The crash has nothing to do with whether or not your bees have been treated in the past.
When mites first arrived nobody’s bees were ‘dependent’ on a treatment schedule and they crashed all the same.
Don’t take this so personally Ace….remember I’m not supposed to believe anything you say… ….but if you post stuff that doesn’t make sense to me….it’s ok if I challenge it….isn’t it? 
I’m chillin’….I hope you are too.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> but if you post stuff that doesn’t make sense to me….it’s ok if I challenge it….isn’t it?


Absolutely. Peace brother.


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