# Terramycin or not



## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I would use the tm but burn any afb. It is a good preventive vs cure. just use as per the label.


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## beehonest (Nov 3, 2011)

Well let me ask you this, do you take antibiotics as a preventative for a cold. I doubt it, why not, because your body will build up a resistance to it and it will not work. If you get europian foulbrood give them terymicin and it will be cured. If you get american foulbrood you best bet is to burn them, some states require it others allow treatment but it will never go away and can spread to your other hives. You have the chem free guys with the darwinian aproach. Ultimatly you have to choose who to listen too. In beekeeping you get a solid answer on very few things if any.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Antibiotic resistance of the germs is in the genes. A natural plasmid, pMA67 is present in all the resistant strains of foulbrood.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/jul07/bee0707.pdf

"Antibiotics kill beneficial bacteria as well as pathogens. You may be killing the beneficial bacteria bees need for good health. While little is known about beneficial bacteria in honey bees, when we have looked in other organisms beneficial bacteria have been found."
http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/CAPArticle4.html


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I'm not big on magic drugs but from my experence with bee inspection makes me believe as a prevention tm is not that bad. If your bees rob local afb hives it can go thru their system without breaking down with afb. otherwise they would have to be burned. seems like a better choice to me. of course the treatment free guys would have a mess.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The natural bacteria of the hive are ESSENTIAL not only to crowd out pathogens, but also for the very existence of the bees as they cannot digest pollen and have to ferment it with bacteria and yeasts to make it digestible. TM will kill all of the bacteria, including the beneficial ones. I have not used TM since about 1974...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You also may want to read this article from ABJ about TM making bees more at risk for pesticides:
http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d&id=c0902f4ad8


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

In beekeeping you get a solid answer on very few things if any.
I disagree with that. 'Few' things is too optimistic.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I have never used it. If I find one frame with afb I burn the frame and watch the hive. If I find more, I kill the bees with sulphur and I burn the hive. Simple.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beehonest said:


> Well let me ask you this, do you take antibiotics as a preventative for a cold. I doubt it, why not, because your body will build up a resistance to it and it will not work.


I am in the ID and burn camp. Also, the "don't take any free equipment camp" and the "don't buy any used equipment which you don't know the history of camp". And, "the know whether your nuc supplier uses TM as a preventitive or not camp".

In my opinion there is nothing wrong w/ using TM properly in the Label recommended manner. It's just not necassary for the small scale beekeeper.

TM is used as a preventitive, not as a CURE. I liken it to a Flu Shot. Yes, it is an antibiotic. But, I don't think things work quite like beehonest. I agree, taking antibiotic to prevent a cold will not work. Colds are caused by viruses. Not infectious pathogens like bacterium. And it isn't that your body will build a resistance, it is that the things that antibiotics kill will build a resistance to the antibiotic thru misuse and overuse.

We already have AFB resistant TM. I have asked, but not gotten a satisfactory answer from folks who should know, whether this is from use and over use of TM or if some strains of AFB are just naturally resistant to the drug?

Knowledge of AFB, the IDing of it, and then proper handling of it when found is, imo, stronger medicine than the drug. One needs to know how to ID it and how to minimize the chances of getting it in ones hives. 

It is spread from beekeeper to beekeeper mostly by buying it. And w/in an operation by spreading infected equipment amongst the hives one already has, especially after extracting when frames are often shuffled one box to another. Robbing bees w/in an operation pass on the infection. Your bees robbing another apiary also spread the infection. Swarms rarely carry and re-establish the infection, because what honey they have is used for comb production. Which traps the spores in wax scales or feces as it passes thru the bees body.


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## beehonest (Nov 3, 2011)

Sorry to confuse the experts, I did mean to say sinus infection. But I figured most people could get my point without sharpening the razor blade to split haires. I am sure something is misspelled also feel free to correct it. I don't know everything and don't claim to but I guess some poeple do. Jrbbees, you are exactly right I was beeing to optimistic.


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## beerbee (Nov 15, 2011)

Thanks for the discussion. I believe that the less medications, pesticides, herbicides, etc. we add to the environment, the better. Saying this, I realize that certain applications maybe necessary from time to time after all I am a farmer. 

I have caught all my bees (10 hives) from swarms, cutouts, etc. I have also built most of my own equipment. I did treat in the fall because of fear from lossing all the hard work and the advice of a beekeeping friend. 

I don't have so many hives that I shouldn't be able to see something is going on, so I think I'll roll the dice and pay close attention.

If someone has been treatment free for as long as I've been alive, it's worth a shot.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beerbee said:


> Thanks for the discussion. I believe that the less medications, pesticides, herbicides, etc. we add to the environment, the better.


Considering what I heard from Dr. Maryanne Frazier last week on pesticides in the environment and in our hives, CCD may be caused as much by chemical interactions as the individual pesticides on their own. So, if we can introduce one less chemical, that to me is a good thing.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"kill the bees with sulphur"

I had to kill two hives and used petrol ( gasoline).
How do you kill them wuth sulphur? If ever I have to do it again I would like to use the quickestmeans.

thanks


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Sulfur is used in the smoker or burned on the bottom board. The smoke kills the bees.


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## diablod3 (Dec 6, 2011)

I buy duramycin-10 for use with my baby chickens. it is a tetracycline hydrochloride soluble powder, anyone know if this would work in a manner similar to terramycin? terramycin was once used to treat the chickens but the duramycin is now used.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The only two approved treatments for AFB are Terramycin and, in cases of Terramycin resistant AFB, Tylosin. Duramycin is not approved.


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## captahab (Apr 19, 2009)

Dont treat !!! Let the bees be bees !!


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

mr bush may be correct as only two approved chemicals are approved however it is up to the state. in some states any afb must be burned and no treatmemt allowed. not a big deal as you are looking to prevent rather than cure. we treat spring and fall and bees do well with no afb for about 20 yrs. like everything in beekeeping there is no correct answer as it up to each beekeeper.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I am fortunate to live in an area where AFB has not been a problem for some years. Given that, I do not treat, and am prepared to destroy by burning any hive that develops AFB symptoms. If I'm not sure of what I'm looking at I'll ask for help from beekeepers with more experience than I. Attending club meetings and seminars where sterilized AFB frames have been passed around is as close as I hope to get to actual AFB.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Andrew Dewey said:


> Attending club meetings and seminars where sterilized AFB frames have been passed around is as close as I hope to get to actual AFB.


Sterilized AFB frames? Please describe. The only way I know to sterilize AFB frames is to burn them into nothingness.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Sterilized AFB frames? Please describe. The only way I know to sterilize AFB frames is to burn them into nothingness. 

Irradiation seems to be the common method at the present.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh yeah, I forgot. Is that what you meant Andrew? Is there an irradiation unit in ME?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

mark the frames may have gone thru a eto chamber or gamma irradiation as told at the eshpa meeting. maybe you were outside or having a senior moment. ha ha


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Granted, for the first twenty years of my beekeeping life, I only kept six hives, or less. Due to the nature of my work (U.S. Navy) and afterwards my natural inclinations, I relocated often, usually maintaining bees wherever I was. In various locations and different hives, sometimes in new equipment, sometimes in old relocated equipment, I have observed a few cases of each of chalkbrood, parafoulbrood, sacbrood, and stonebrood. More recently I have seen K-wing (result of tracheal mites), PMS (result of _Varroa_ mites), DWV, and even the occasional case of BQCV. There may have been an occasional cell or two of EFB and/or AFB that I did not notice (or perhaps not), but I've never seen a full-blown case of either EFB or AFB, in my hives, nor in any fellow beekeeper's hives. Considering this, I grew into the impression that neither EFB, nor AFB are very common in most of the beekeeping world.

I once purchased a package of Terramycin, formulated for treating honey bees, that was back in the late 1960's or early 1970's, I never got around to using it. I have read that many of the causative organisms of these diseases are usually present, yet are not usually causing disease.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beeware10 said:


> mark the frames may have gone thru a eto chamber or gamma irradiation as told at the eshpa meeting. maybe you were outside or having a senior moment. ha ha


I wasn't aware ME had either one of those.


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## diablod3 (Dec 6, 2011)

i don't really care if duramycin is "approved" or not, i have two hives and i can find it local and for about $4 a bag. If it works then i would go that route, specially since i buy it for my chickens anyway. it does cost slightly more but im sure once i paid shipping to get the terramycin it would probably be about the same if not cheaper.


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## diablod3 (Dec 6, 2011)

i did some looking around and found that duramycin-10 is being sold and used as a preventive measure against foul brood. ive only found one supplier selling it though. and i agree terramycin seems to be the only approved drug on the market to help prevent foul brood.


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## beenut46 (Nov 12, 2011)

There is oxytetracycline which is labled for bees it is Pennox 343 this is the best way to go .You can get it throuh vet supplys on webb.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I'm not sure where Tony J had the AFB frames irradiated - I'm guessing it wasn't in Maine. But I have confidence that he would not be demoing "live" AFB.


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