# Method for reducing to small cell size



## Rich Angerer (Aug 28, 2001)

After the article in American Bee Journal in August 2001 about the Lusbys and the advantages of small cell size, I'm inclined to try to do this as well. I've been beekeeping for 2 years and currently have 2 hives with 5.5mm cells. I expect to add another hive next year.

Would you please advise me:

1) How do you go about moving to smaller cell size? The article states that you put in 4.9mm foundation. Does this mean that I should pull all 10 frames out of the brood chamber and replace them all at once with smaller cell size foundation?

2) I know Dadant sells 4.9 foundation, but how do you make the jump from 5.5 to 4.9? Can you buy 5.3mm, 5.1mm, etc. foundation? Where? Or do you just keep putting in 4.9 foundation and letting them build it to a larger size?

3) Does it matter where you buy the 4.9mm foundation (Is all small cell size foundation the same)?

4) Do you kill the queen each year to have the new ("smaller") bees generate their own smaller queen? Do you requeen each year by buying another queen? It would seem you must requeen each year; otherwise the same queen would produce the same size bees each year. Is this true?

5) If you do requeen each year, is there a vendor who sells "small" queens?

6) Is there any place for finding documentation about how to make this change?

Any practical advise you might provide me towards making this switch would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Rich Angerer
West Caldwell, NJ USA
[email protected]


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi Rich,

1) How do you go about moving to smaller cell size? The article states that you put in 4.9mm foundation. Does this mean that I should pull all 10 frames out of the brood chamber and replace them all at once with smaller cell size foundation?

reply:

Close. Have a hive body with 4.9mm foundation that is ready to go and a queen excluder. Take hive off bottom board place queen ex. on bottom board. Next add new hive body of 4.9. Take comb by comb of the old colony and shake them into the 4.9 hive body which is now on the old stand. This is called a shake down. Same as a shook swarm for comb honey production. The queen excluder is to prevent absconding. Use until the queen is laying on a few frames then remove. Oh! Give the brood to other hive(s).

2) I know Dadant sells 4.9 foundation, but how do you make the jump from 5.5 to 4.9? Can you buy 5.3mm, 5.1mm, etc. foundation? Where? Or do you just keep putting in 4.9 foundation and letting them build it to a larger size?

reply:

This is hard to say in a few words! You will accomplish this in several shakedowns. Use 4.9mm foundations to start with. Different hives can go smaller faster. It is recommended by some to cut your foundation into 1-2 inch started strips(you save on wax and $$$)and you will need to cull combs until you get to 4.9 cell sizing.

3) Does it matter where you buy the 4.9mm foundation (Is all small cell size foundation the same)?

reply:

Dadant is the only commercial manufacturer of 4.9mm foundation. However many of us such as myself have hand mills and make are own. Barry has posted how to make press plates should you wish to make your own foundation.

4) Do you kill the queen each year to have the new ("smaller") bees generate their own smaller queen? Do you requeen each year by buying another queen? It would seem you must requeen each year; otherwise the same queen would produce the same size bees each year. Is this true?

reply:

No. We don't kill the queen. We let her be superced. You will have to stop buying queens and learn to raise your own. We work with local stock to use bees that are adapted to our area. This is a large subject area which we can discuss later. Your question are good. The size of the bee is due to the cell size not the "queen" laying in the cell. Queens abdomens are quite flexible so they can adjust to the cell size.

5) If you do requeen each year, is there a vendor who sells "small" queens?

reply:

Yes. Bolling Bee sells small queens and packages. You must Hurry as they will be sold out soon. I recommend that you work with the bees you have as they have adjusted to your area.

6) Is there any place for finding documentation about how to make this change?

reply:

Yes. At this very site. Click back to the beesource homepage and click on Point Of View (POV). Then read The Lusby's article called BACK TO BIOLOGICAL BEEKEEPING. When you get done with that novel your head will ring for a week. You will most likely have at least 1000 more questions. Also you can join the BIO BEE list to discuss with others. This can be found on this site too. Please join you will learn much.

Read the article above then fire your question. Dee Lusby should reply to this post too. 

regards,

Clay


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Well Rich & Clay too!

I see you two have met.This is great!!

Rich writes:
1) How do you go about moving to smaller cell size? The article states that you put in 4.9mm foundation. Does this mean that I should pull all 10 frames out of the brood chamber and replace them all at once with smaller cell size foundation?

Clay'sreply:

Close. Have a hive body with 4.9mm foundation that is ready to go and a queen excluder. Take hive off bottom board place queen ex. on bottom board. Next add new hive body of 4.9. Take comb by comb of the old colony and shake them into the 4.9 hive body which is now on the old stand. This is called a shake down. Same as a shook swarm for comb honey production. The queen excluder is to prevent absconding. Use until the queen is laying on a few frames then remove. Oh! Give the brood to other hive(s).

Dee's turn:

What Clay is saying is good Rich, now to expand a little. You must do this as early in the spring as you can and on a good honey flow. If no honey flow is on you must initiate one by feeding both honey and pollen to both get the bees to draw new wax comb and have the queen lay brood also. If no honey and pollen are available for you to feed, Clay can fill you in on how to substitute. (Dee-trying to give Clay work!)

Rich writes:
2) I know Dadant sells 4.9 foundation, but how do you make the jump from 5.5 to 4.9? Can you buy 5.3mm, 5.1mm, etc. foundation? Where? Or do you just keep putting in 4.9 foundation and letting them build it to a larger size?

Clay's reply:

This is hard to say in a few words! You will accomplish this in several shakedowns. Use 4.9mm foundations to start with. Different hives can go smaller faster. It is recommended by some to cut your foundation into 1-2 inch started strips(you save on wax and $$$)and you will need to cull combs until you get to 4.9 cell sizing.

Dee's turn:

Rich as bees only regress down .2mm-.3mm at a time in body sizing, depending upon the size you are starting with it might take you several jumps to get down. Normally 2-3!To do it in 2 jumps down from 5.5mm you will be lucky, but in actuality it will probably take 3 trys and a lot of culling, hence Clay correctly suggests you use 2-3 inch starter strips in sizing down the first major jumps. further the foundation will be best drawn contained to broodnest drawing out! 

Only very early in the spring, again following swarming and resettting up house do bees frequently drawn the smaller sizes until they work up to the mode of sufficient new field workers to make enlarged combs.

Rich wrote:
3) Does it matter where you buy the 4.9mm foundation (Is all small cell size foundation the same)?

Clay's reply:

Dadant is the only commercial manufacturer of 4.9mm foundation. However many of us such as myself have hand mills and make are own. Barry has posted how to make press plates should you wish to make your own foundation.

Dee's turn:

Dadant is right now the only manufacturer in the field and a very good one. However, the difference between homemade with hot wax by hand and assembly line with some stretch is indeed a little different, and advantages are to be had from those willing to make their own. Again, Clay is more than apt at probably filling you in on this information! (Hi Clay- me getting lazy again! :> ) )

Rich writes:
4) Do you kill the queen each year to have the new ("smaller") bees generate their own smaller queen? Do you requeen each year by buying another queen? It would seem you must requeen each year; otherwise the same queen would produce the same size bees each year. Is this true?

Clay's reply:

No. We don't kill the queen. We let her be superced. You will have to stop buying queens and learn to raise your own. We work with local stock to use bees that are adapted to our area. This is a large subject area which we can discuss later. Your question are good. The size of the bee is due to the cell size not the "queen" laying in the cell. Queens abdomens are quite flexible so they can adjust to the cell size.

Dee's reply:

Very nice Clay. I will add no more for now!

Rich writes:
5) If you do requeen each year, is there a vendor who sells "small" queens?

Clay's reply:

Yes. Bolling Bee sells small queens and packages. You must Hurry as they will be sold out soon. I recommend that you work with the bees you have as they have adjusted to your area.

Dee's turn:

Bill Gafford's number at Bolling Bee is:
1-334-382-6878 down in Greenville, Ala

Rich writes:

6) Is there any place for finding documentation about how to make this change?

Clay's reply:

Yes. At this very site. Click back to the beesource homepage and click on Point Of View (POV). Then read The Lusby's article called BACK TO BIOLOGICAL BEEKEEPING. When you get done with that novel your head will ring for a week. You will most likely have at least 1000 more questions. Also you can join the BIO BEE list to discuss with others. This can be found on this site too. Please join you will learn much.

Read the article above then fire your question. Dee Lusby should reply to this post too. 

Dee's turn:

Yep, Clay, just did. You are doing splendidly!

Best regards you two:

Dee


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## Morierty (Feb 20, 2002)

Bolling Bee has 4.9 package bees?!? or did I mis-interpert?

I am very interested. So I hope I'm not too late for my order.

------------------
If you are willing to Risk the Risk, Then you are willing to reap the rewards


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi,

Yes they have 4.9 package bees (caucasian). But call them as I'm not sure if their sold out for this year. 

Clay


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## Morierty (Feb 20, 2002)

Sold out


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I'm bumping this up for those wanting to switch over to SC wax this spring that are currently on LC.


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## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

This isn't exactly the best thread to bump up. A lot of things have changed since 2001/2002, and there's better methods than doing shakedowns.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Please share.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

iwombat said:


> This isn't exactly the best thread to bump up.
> 
> Snip


I agree. 

There are certainly a lot of more recent threads with some good discussions concerning regression, although it's interesting to see an old posting by Dee Lusby,


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes alot changes in ten years. Sadly Bill Gafford of the Bolling Bee company passed away last summer. And with him, the last strain of Mountain Gray Caucasians in the USA. Whether the Mountain Grays were Large Cell or Small Cell, it did not matter, they were good bees!! The industry has suffered a loss. TK


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Rich Angerer said:


> 1) How do you go about moving to smaller cell size? The article states that you put in 4.9mm foundation. Does this mean that I should pull all 10 frames out of the brood chamber and replace them all at once with smaller cell size foundation?


I regressed mine in a few months. I didn't pull all the large cells out but the queen preferred laying in the larger cells. I just gradually moved the large cells to the outside and tried to catch after the brood emerged and before the queen laid again.



Rich Angerer said:


> 2) I know Dadant sells 4.9 foundation, but how do you make the jump from 5.5 to 4.9? Can you buy 5.3mm, 5.1mm, etc. foundation? Where? Or do you just keep putting in 4.9 foundation and letting them build it to a larger size?


I used the Honeysupercell, which is fully drawn fully plastic frames [4.9], but they're expensive. [However, I have 20 that I am not using anymore PM and maybe we can work out a deal if interested] Most queens will reluctantly lay in them if forced by running out of large cell frames to lay in. My large cell bees had a hard time drawing out my 4.9 plastic frames from MannLake LTD. The bees did much better after a batch of bees were raised on the small cell Honeysupercell.



Rich Angerer said:


> 3) Does it matter where you buy the 4.9mm foundation (Is all small cell size foundation the same)?


Kelleybees.com now offers 4.9 wax foundation, and I know MannLakeLTD.com has the 4.9 cell plastic frames, but these just have the prefab cells that the bees must draw out. Again mine had a tough time drawing out the 4.9 correctly until some of the bees had been regressed using the honeysupercell



Rich Angerer said:


> 4) Do you kill the queen each year to have the new ("smaller") bees generate their own smaller queen? Do you requeen each year by buying another queen? It would seem you must requeen each year; otherwise the same queen would produce the same size bees each year. Is this true?


All queens are raised in larger queen cells. I can't tell the difference in size. The cell size determines the worker bee size, not the size of the queen.



Rich Angerer said:


> 5) If you do requeen each year, is there a vendor who sells "small" queens?


No need to requeen every year and you can buy queens from whoever, large or small cell. Large queens have no problems laying in small cells.



Rich Angerer said:


> 6) Is there any place for finding documentation about how to make this change?[/email]


Yes, right here on this site. Just do a search for regression. Also go to Michael Bush's site:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#naturalcomb

Also look on the left size for and index on other small cell topics at his site.

Maybe this will get the attention Barry

Kindest Regards
Danny


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Cheer up Ted, I have some of Bills old stock tucked away in the gulf... actually there is a guy in Parrottsville, TN named David (Winter's Apiaries) that has breeders as well... I never let a good thing die. lol. I will send you a few late in the year to remind you of the good ol days.

Ok, you can delete me now... sorry, didnt realise what thread I was even reading until it was too late... silly phone... lol


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Mr. Russell, are those the Caucasians you offer on your website?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Some of them are. We have many different stocks as well as crosses of each... so when our customers order, they simply make a note of which stock from each strain that they would like... ie.. northern selected Sunkist, Midnights, Mountain Grey Caucasian, Slovenian Carniolan, etc... when the customer has not made any preference, we select the best stock for the area that the customer has ordered from. We are new to the web, but have been using this system for our customers for nearly a century.


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

We tried the Mann Lake PF 100's last year and the (non-regressed) bees did an excellent job drawing it out. That said, I have no idea what size cells the packages were raised on. I'm assuming there is some degree of comb diversity in the package industry.

We've also used the HoneySuperCell which works very well but it takes a while to convince the bees to use it. They took to the PF 100's right away.

Ramona


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

> HoneySuperCell which works very well but it *takes a while to convince the bees to use it*


An't that the truth!! This year I finally have a good brood pattern in mine.


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## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

I have similar experience with the pf-series frames. The bees take to it just fine.


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## LBF (Mar 28, 2011)

If a person could catch a feral swarm, would they adapt quicker to the smaller cell size than package bees or other established hives?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

depending on where they came from.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Assuming they are an actual "feral" swarm and not from a large cell hive, yes.


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