# Disadvantages of running double deeps



## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

I believe the 2 main reasons people have gone away from deeps is weight and to standardize box size.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

No. No.

No. Yes.

No problem.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

n5odj said:


> Are there disadvantages to running a double deep hive. Of course the main reason for doing it is to ensure enough food for the winter, but any cons? My thinking is that perhaps the bees having to maintain (and keep full) two deeps can detract from surplus honey production.
> 
> Do any of you who run double deeps take the top box off in the Spring? Or, as I suspect, keep them on all year long?
> 
> ...


Actually Robert, two deeps helps honey production. The purpose of the double deep is not only winter stores, but enough space for a good queen to lay, and for larger bee populations. A larger population equals a greater honey crop. I keep my hives in two deeps year round. Some people have back problems, and go with 8 frame, or with medium equipment. I compromised, use two deeps for brood nest, shallows for surplus honey. Most of the time when I have to manipulate two deeps, they're light. 
Regards,
Steven


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## dtompsett (Feb 2, 2010)

One of the local beekeepers (retired commercial couple... they keep 50 hives for honey production and selling some bees) use a single deep and a single medium. They talked about it at our last club meeting... works great for them in our Northern climate.

_Do you get confused when swapping frames from one hive to another due to size difference; IE... wanting to swap a deep frame of brood from a strong hive for an empty medium frame in a weak hive?_

nope; you get used to it and adjust pretty quickly.

As far as they were concerned, they saw no reason to change to 2 deeps, since 1deep/1medium seems to work really well for them.

Whereas, my mentor always did 2 deeps; as do many people around here. Apparently some beek's in Southern Ontario (slightly milder climate) are getting by with one deep overwintered.


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## oregonbeek (Mar 30, 2010)

What I'm hearing is 2 deeps for warmer climates and 1 deep/1 medium for colder northern climates... what's the theory behind that?

I'm in a cold winter climate and would love for my bees to make it through the winter. I'm using a Russian/Carniolan hybrid just for that purpose. I am planning on using 2 deeps and medium honey supers... 10 frame gear. I can lift the heavy loads if the need ever arises so deeps didn't scare me much and 8 frame gear wasn't available to me.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

oregonbeek said:


> What I'm hearing is 2 deeps for warmer climates and 1 deep/1 medium for colder northern climates... what's the theory behind that?


I don't know about that being any kind of rule, rule of thumb or concensus of opinion amongst beekeepers in general.

Sizes and numbers of supers or combinations has more to do w/ beekeeper preferences, what the person who mentored you did or what you find most convenient. The bees don't care. One jumbo Dadant super for a brood chamber may be the best for the queen, since she doesn't have to move across wood to get to open comb, but I haven't noticed that to be a problem.

As Jim Tew used to tell us, back at school, "The bees don't read the same books that you and I do." Perhaps he should, or has, update that statement to read, "The bees don't read the same blogs as you and I do."


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## oregonbeek (Mar 30, 2010)

Yea I hadn't heard that at all until this thread and was curious if there was anything behind it. Like smaller spaces needing less heat to keep it going or something like that.

Honestly, I'm in a 2 deep + medium supers set up because it was the only thing available to me at the time and seems to be kind of an industry standard for beginner beekeeping kits.


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## jkbbeez (May 28, 2010)

I run double deeps last year on the advise of the feller I got my bees from. Both my hives starved out over winter. They was plenty heavy going in too and I throwed the feed at them. Then I find out a whole mess of folks around here running double deeps lost about half their bees. 

Got to reading on here about Walt Wrights ideas about how to stack your hive so its like a regular bee tree. Shallow on the bottom for pollen, deep in the middle for brood, and a couple of honey supers on top. He has a lot to say about how the queen doesn't like that empty space between deeps. I did notice a lot of folks on here say to move a frame of brood up to get the bees to follow. I got new bees this year and I'm gonna run them like he says.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Please let us know when you get your bees trained to deposit pollen in the bottom shallow, brood in the middle deep and honey in the top.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jkbbeez said:


> Then I find out a whole mess of folks around here running double deeps lost about half their bees.
> 
> Shallow on the bottom for pollen, deep in the middle for brood, and a couple of honey supers on top. He has a lot to say about how the queen doesn't like that empty space between deeps.


Shoot, I lost alot of my hives last winter, in doubles, singles, story and a halfs and double 5 frame nucs. So which of these configurations should I give up?

Anecdotal evidence is just that.

Shallow on the bottom for pollen? Are you sure about that? Maybe you should double check what you read.

What empty space between the deeps? The 3/8 bee space between the top bars and the bottom bars?


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> What empty space between the deeps? The 3/8 bee space between the top bars and the bottom bars?


I was wondering this also, the "bee space" the same whether you have a deep, medium or shallow sitting on top of another deep, medium or shallow :scratch:

AND do your bees specifically store only pollen in shallows? Are you utilizing all 3 different sized boxes???? Shallow, deep, then honey super, what size is the honey super... a medium??? Not sure I am understanding this method :scratch:


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Allen Dick is a retired commercial beekeeper from Alberta, Canada who ran up to 4500 hives. His advice was to run single deeps in the summer, but winter in doubles.

I had another commercial beekeeper tell me that you lose a 5 gallon bucket of honey by running a second deep. He runs his summer hives in single deeps.


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## oregonbeek (Mar 30, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> I had another commercial beekeeper tell me that you lose a 5 gallon bucket of honey by running a second deep. He runs his summer hives in single deeps.


Holy cow... and they don't need that honey to overwinter?


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

After the main flow with light honey is done place the second deep back on and if they don't produce enough dark honey from the fall flow for winter then feed them.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Around here I run double deeps for 2 reasons.
1. in the summer a good queen will not have enough room to lay in only 1 deep. She needs at least 2 deeps for brood.
2. in the winter, between the end of Nov and the end of Jan the bees will bring in 60-90 lbs of honey and store it in the upper deep. If they only had one deep they would wind up swarming out.

Around here, the smart beekeepers clean the excess honey out of the upper deep at the end of Jan or early Feb. Cause swarms will start by Mar 1st. 

But after all, that is around here not where you live -- Fuzzy


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Beekeeping really is regional.


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## oregonbeek (Mar 30, 2010)

I'm new, and don't know much yet about beekeeping... but if it takes 70ish pounds of honey to overwinter a hive, why not just take all that honey and buy new bees in the spring? Surely the cost of the honey is more than the cost of a replacement package of bees?


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

oregonbeek said:


> I'm new, and don't know much yet about beekeeping... but if it takes 70ish pounds of honey to overwinter a hive, why not just take all that honey and buy new bees in the spring? Surely the cost of the honey is more than the cost of a replacement package of bees?


There is at least one commercial beekeeper on here and one on the Oregon (OSBA) forum that use that management plan. Shake out the bee in the fall, extract the honey and buy packages in the spring. Don't worry about mites or disease or overwinter losses.

It depends on why you are beekeeping. Because you like beekeeping or want to maximize your honey return?

It normally doesn't take 70 lbs here, but it came close this year. I try to leave that much, but there is normally still 20-30lbs in the spring. So it only takes 40-50 lbs to build up for the next winter in the deeps. This year we had a nice early spring and they started storing honey early. Since the first of May they have used quite a bit of that. 

If you had bought packages this year you would still be feeding.

I should note that I mostly have NWC, so my winter honey usage is lower. My Italians didn't do to bad though this year.


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## oregonbeek (Mar 30, 2010)

Hmm, that's interesting about the commercial beekeeper that actually does that. The reason I ask is because I live in a place that has pretty darn cold winters and if I lose both my hives this winter to the cold, it wouldn't seem like a bad idea for the next year.

From what I can tell:

Pros:
~Extra 50ish pounds of honey
~No winter maintenance
~Lower disease, mites etc.

Cons:
~Slower buildup in the spring?
~Kind of sad to kill off your bees in the winter
~Added cost of buying new bees for the spring

It also hit me that a downside would be that some of that extra 50-70 pounds may be mixed in with brood and may be harder to extract? I could be wrong though.

Man... what's 50 pounds of honey worth? That can't be cheap. That's a lot of honey...


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_If you had bought packages this year you would still be feeding._

Huh? I started four 2 pound packages this year. I made 6 splits from them, and now have 10 hives. I've pulled the feeders and supered them up, and those hives are bringing in nectar and starting to cap honey.

_From what I can tell:

Pros:
~Extra 50ish pounds of honey
~No winter maintenance
~Lower disease, mites etc._

Don't forget not having to treat for mites or fall feeding or those management hassles.

_Cons:
~Slower buildup in the spring?
~Kind of sad to kill off your bees in the winter
~Added cost of buying new bees for the spring_

I know a commercial beekeeper who starts with fresh packages every spring. He had tried overwintering hives, and buying packages to replace deadouts. The package bees produced more honey than the overwintered hives.

You don't have to kill off the fall bees. Shake them into someone else's equipment, and let that person take them south and feed them in the winter, and then ship them to California for almond pollination.

Added cost of buying bees? How much did the sugar syrup cost that you fed to the bees in the fall? And then those bees still died in the winter? The question you should be asking is, "How much will I save by buying new bees in the spring?"

_Man... what's 50 pounds of honey worth? That can't be cheap. That's a lot of honey... _

A 5 gallon bucket is about $125 right now. If you sell retail, you should be able to get a minimum of $5 a pound, and over $10 in the right market.


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## oregonbeek (Mar 30, 2010)

Wow, that's definitely something to think about Countryboy. 125 bucks covers 2 packages. 

Maybe I'll try and overwinter them this year just for the experience and to see how it goes, but it's good to know that I'm not totally crazy with the "just start them fresh next year" back-up plan.


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## honeydreams (Aug 10, 2009)

Oregon Beek just remember Beekeeping is regional what works in OH, may not work in Flordia, and what works there may not work In Washington. A package of bees cost around 125 to 150 dollars per package plus shipping. here in washington state if I installed pakages this year I would still be feeding them and they would still be in their first deep. do to weather. I just can't see letting my girsl just die so I can enjoy a few bucks from their hard work. prertty darn selfish if you ask me.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Countryboy said:


> _If you had bought packages this year you would still be feeding._
> 
> Huh? I started four 2 pound packages this year. I made 6 splits from them, and now have 10 hives. I've pulled the feeders and supered them up, and those hives are bringing in nectar and starting to cap honey.


Oregonbeek and I have the same (crappy) weather....you don't. Bees that can't fly can't make honey...they eat it, or whatever you are feeding them.


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## oregonbeek (Mar 30, 2010)

I figured the idea of offing your bees every winter might be controversial hehe. I'm sure there are always people willing to take some donated shaken bees in the fall if it ever came to that. My winters are pretty harsh, but I always figured that if they can keep bees in Alaska then I probably can too. But... we did have -20 F temps this winter, and snow only a couple weeks ago. I'm on the cold, dry side of the Cascades.
I could be wrong, but I haven't seen a package of bees sell for more than 70 bucks + shipping. 

I'm definitely seeing that beekeeping is regional though... Central Oregon's climate is crazy... 80 degrees and sun one day, snow the next, we can get a sunburn while it's raining. Skiing in the morning, rafting in the afternoon, gotta love it! I really prefer it to the milder, rainier weather to the west of the Cascades. We've had a lot of rain so far this spring, more than usual. I wish summer would get here so my bees could get out and forage more!


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_but it's good to know that I'm not totally crazy with the "just start them fresh next year" back-up plan. _

You may want to spend some time in the commercial forum and read how The Honey Householder manages his bees. He starts packages every year, splits his hives and shakes surplus bees into packages to sell to hobbyists, and still averages about 150 pounds per hive honey production.

_Oregonbeek and I have the same (crappy) weather....you don't. Bees that can't fly can't make honey...they eat it, or whatever you are feeding them. _

I wish I did have that crappy weather in April. We had nice warm weather in April. The bees were out flying all the time, instead of staying in the hive and building up. Hives built up slow this year.

If you have all the food in the hive right where the bees want it, the bees will stay inside the hive and build up in crappy weather. Then when the weather breaks and you have a nectar flow, the bees are ready to take advantage of it.

_here in washington state if I installed pakages this year I would still be feeding them and they would still be in their first deep. _

Why would they still be in the first deep? Would you have just started them a few weeks ago?


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Countryboy said:


> _here in washington state if I installed pakages this year I would still be feeding them and they would still be in their first deep. _
> 
> Why would they still be in the first deep? Would you have just started them a few weeks ago?


When your high temps are in the mid 50's they don't produce wax as fast.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

honeydreams
>>>> A package of bees cost around 125 to 150 dollars per package plus shipping.<<<<<

Your pricing is way off or you are being robbed!


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## montanabee (May 7, 2008)

_oregonbeek_
_"My winters are pretty harsh, but I always figured that if they can keep bees in Alaska then I probably can too. But... we did have -20 F temps this winter, and snow only a couple weeks ago. I'm on the cold, dry side of the Cascades."_


Honestly, it is not that cold where you are. I used to live in bend for a number of years (prior to taking up bee keeping) and compared to Montana's bitterly cold winters with weeks of -30 at least, it isn't too cold in Bend. 
So, with that said, I have overwintered a few hives for a few years now. What has ultimately been the end of a few hives has been when spring starts to get here in March and the bees break cluster and then we get down to zero again and then they freeze. But given that Bend rarely has horribly cold springs, when the bees are most vulnerable, you should be able to make it through the winter and avoid having to buy new bees every year. just start feeding as soon as the weather gets nice. 

I did have one hive make it through the majority of spring and then nearly all died. So I dropped it back down to one brood box and that helped them considerably.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

oregonbeek said:


> Man... what's 50 pounds of honey worth? That can't be cheap. That's a lot of honey...


What's that 50 pounds of honey worth if the bees turn it into bees in the spring. Invaluable I would say.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_When your high temps are in the mid 50's they don't produce wax as fast. _

So? They shouldn't need to be making wax. You should be using the drawn comb from last year's hive that you didn't overwinter.


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## dannyidp (Jun 10, 2010)

hello guys & gals I'm new to this forum and to bee keeping,i'ts possible that I may not be posting in the right area.I have some questions that i'm hoping to get some advice on like I said I'm new and have read alot of books and some on this forum,what is the best size boxes to get for the two bottoms like supers are they all the same size? also the foundation screens that I put into these two boxes on the bottom how many drone screens and worker screens do I put in are is that determine buy the bee? once the screens are drawn out and all has hatched do i need two replace the screen?I have not got bees yet but am trying to get my hive ready.also what boxes do I need to go on top of my supers for honey can I use supers also. I'm hoping someone can help take the confusion out of this for me. Any and all info will be greatly appreciated

THANKS DAN


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Hi Dan and welcome to Beekeeping and to BeeSource! Your best source of info will be someone in your area that currently keeps bees. I could answer your questions based on my experience here in Maine, but as the saying goes, All beekeeping is local. What works for me here is probably not right for you. Check out your state association - I imagine they can put you in touch with someone to talk with.


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