# Overwintering Northern Nucs



## kamerrill (Sep 17, 2003)

Unfortunately, I did not have a chance to see Mr. Palmers talk but found his short paper about over wintering small 4-frame nucs in Northern VT to be an interesting read.

http://www.nhbeekeepers.org/
(follow the pdf link on the homepage)

I used a variation of this technique this past winter with really good (and admittedly surprising) success.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

There you go Waya, that's the PDF file of the handout I mentioned to you.

>I used a variation of this technique this past winter with really good (and admittedly surprising) success.

Do tell. What did you do?


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Thanks kamerill for the paper. I stored it on my computer. I've met and talked with Mike a few times in the past. He usually attends the Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association spring seminar/conference. Great guy. George, you should try to get down from Maine to the SABA spring seminar next March. 

(Did any of you others notice Mike was not wearing a bee veil in any of the pictures)


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>George, you should try to get down from Maine to the SABA spring seminar next March. 

Sigh. He talked at this past spring's Maine State Beekeeper's Association meeting. I couldn't attend because I couldn't scrape up the bucks.

I've corresponded with him. Sure seems like a nice guy.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

THANKS!! kamerril for the link and George for nothing. ;O

The guy who hosted our beek field day yesterday has tried a couple of methods to overwinter nucs. He has a large (I mean LARGE) box that's insulated and holds a number of nucs. The box has openings which connects to the nucs with tubes (think of an observation hive) and it also has 2 100 watt light bulbs set by thermostat to 45 degrees. He said it works well enough, but then he tried just making sleeves out of insulation board to slide over the nucs. That is what he does now as it works just as well. I didn't ask, but suspect he uses double-deep nucs. He doesn't insulate the top from the way he described the sleeves.

Waya


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>THANKS!! kamerril for the link and George for nothing. ;O

You're entirely welcome. Let me know of any way I can not be of service in the future!

>He said it works well enough, but then he tried just making sleeves out of insulation board to slide over the nucs.

Sounds reasonable. I'm not sure I like the idea of trying to heat the nucs, but I should give it more thought. It would be difficult for me because there's no power in my apiary. From time to time I think about Michael's OB hive overwintering in his 70º livingroom- it's one of those things that make you go "Hmmmmm...."

I'm more interested in a good method for feeding them. MB's inverted-jars proved to be somewhat problematic, and I've certainly had my share of problems with them, so I automatically don't want to try that approach. Michael Palmer uses a custom made division board feeder to both divide the deep in half and provide a readily available source of food. I think I'll probably experiment with that approach. You can still give them honey of course and a couple of solid frames should hold them through most of the winter as carniolans are pretty frugal, but one still needs a good way to feed them in the fall and early spring at the very least.

As for insulation, when I was wandering around Home Depot last fall I saw some nice styrofoam wrapping material that looked to be about ideal for wrapping hives- easily worked and totally reusable. I may give it a try on a hive or 2. Last winter I wrapped one hive with tarpaper and it did quite well, but tarpaper is good only for one-season and if you wait to put it on till late fall, it can be brittle and hard to work with.


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## scsasdsa (Jan 23, 2004)

there is a newer product made by grace the people who gave us ice & water shield they call it triflex 1000 sq. ft. per roll and is flexible at sud freezing temps. it's more along the lines of tyvek but it black for more thermal gain.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

George:

I've got plywood and stryrofoam nucs that are water tight. Syrup is pumped into the entrance and sits on the bottom. Warm syrup is best. The entrance is a hole drilled into nuc about half way up.

You could always put holes in the inner covers to fed them with buckets. That might be best. Frame feeders take up alot of room if you only have a 5 frame nuc. I also made some 6 frame nucs with hive top feeders. Those work fine as well.

Jean-Marc


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## IBEEME (Apr 21, 2005)

George, why do you say that tar paper is only good for 1 season? Mike Palmer stores his and reuses them for several seasons. He places them on a pallette folded only at 2 of the corners that were made when it was on the hive. He does not fold the edges hard but rather just lets them roll on their own. Then stores them out of the sun until fall when they are put back on. We use a hive tool to pull the staples instead of tearing the paper from the hive. Most of us need to be as cheap uh frugil as can be.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>George, why do you say that tar paper is only good for 1 season?

It weathers and gets cracked, and torn. I saved mine this year and if I use it again I'll be stapling on pieces. I suppose it might last more than one year season if you're really careful with it, don't handle it when it's cold, but you're not going to get many seasons out of it.


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## kamerrill (Sep 17, 2003)

Greetings George:

Two winters ago I got through 6 of 10 and this winter I was able to get 11 of 15 nucs through the winter with this method, although this year was pretty mild by new england standards.

Well, fundamentally I follow the same process that Mr. Palmer outlines (Kirk Webster has published recent articles on the same/similar method)- we differ slightly in our equipment, probably making due with the materials that we have to build with.

a) I use a regular reversible bottom board. I use a bandsaw to open entrances on either side rail, nail the former entrance shut with a piece of wood and run another piece of wood down the center of the bottom board to divide it into two chambers (I'll post some pictures). When I set the nuc on top of another hive to over winter, the gap between the bottom board and the inner cover provides some ventilation (I slip in an entrance reducer).

b) Instead of using rigid insulation, I cut down a shallow-super to 3 1/2 inches add a plywood bottom (and top), and fill the middle with r-13 fiberglass insulation. I dado out a small top vent hole in the bottom piece of plywood (on each side), giving a small vent hole for each chamber. This seems to work pretty well.

c) My feeders last year sucked but they worked. I tried to modify some plastic "division board" feeders - I won't even explain how. This winter I built some like Mr. Palmer shows in his handout. I built the feeders to specifically fit some of the newer deeps that I bought in recent years so they fit tight (sand-to-fit tight). I used some of them this spring and they work very well. I have a pdf. of the plans that I drew for these, so I'll post the link and some pictures of the jig etc. sometime soon. I use a grain bag, sail cloth, or canvas, etc. as an inner cover to seal the two nucs from each other.

In terms of winter management, I wait for a nice day in the winter and check food stores. If they are running shy, I'll give them a frame of honey. In the fall, I make sure to keep an extra frame of honey per nuc. That will get them through until it's warm enough to re-fill the feeder.

Hope this helps...

Kurt


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>this year was pretty mild by new england standards.

Warn't it though.

>I use a regular reversible bottom board. 

Huh. Modifying a conventional bottom wouldn't be hard, I've been figuring on doing that for some shallow mating nucs I'm planning. I've made 4 as per MP's plans as I've got a bunch of scrap painted 3/4" trim and 1/2" plywood picked up from various construction sites.

I wondered about ventilation for the lower hive. How much of a gap do you leave? I'd think 2-3" would be fine.

For insulation on top I was thinking of using some scrap 2" rigid styrofoam I've go kicking around- enough for more nucs than I'll making this year. I'll keep the fiberglass-stuff super idea in mind though.

Love to see the plans for the feeder. Did you put any kind of ladder/lattice inside for the bees to cling to?

>Syrup is pumped into the entrance and sits on the bottom.

Jean-marc, that's the first time I've heard of that being done! How much you put in there? An inch or so?

>Frame feeders take up alot of room if you only have a 5 frame nuc.

Yeah... I've thought about that. These would be 4 frame nucs. 5 would have made me feel better.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

George, you have a catalog from Betterbee? Check out the description and how to feed using the polystyrene nuc box (page 20 of the catalog)


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

I'll be darned Dick. Who'd have thunk it? Pumping syrup into the bottom of the box just seems... wrong. I may have to give it a try


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

George:

If you do feed on the bottom, I feed 2 Litres at a time. It works best if it is warm. It works out that the syrup touches the bottom bars. I've helped feed 3300 nucs in 1 day. 3 men, 2 trucks with pump and hoses and 4 bee yards all within a 5 minute drive of each other.

Jean-Marc


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You'll also notice, if you have one, that the foam nucs from Betterbee have the bottom bars virtually touching the bottom. There is no real space here, so the combs act as ladders down to the syrup.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>There is no real space here, so the combs act as ladders down to the syrup.

I suspected as much.

I'll take your word for it Jean-marc, but to be honest, this swimming-pool approach to feeding nucs just seems whacko. Perhaps I'll try it this summer and see how it goes.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I almost think the best idea for feeding nucs is to make sure they have enough feed in the fall to get through the winter. If you feed syrup during colder months the mositure becomes a problem. If you really need to feed, maybe candy boards is the way to go. I know a beekeep in my area who puts one on every hive in the fall, and he says that he has found them clustered on them in the spring. I think that is what i'm going to do this year.


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## BeeKeep (Mar 30, 2006)

peggjam,
Help me out here . . .
What's a "candy board"? Where do you get 'em? How do you make 'em?
Tanks!


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Candy board is just a fancey way of saying a box that has about a 3 inch lip on it, and is used for feeding feeds that arn't liquid, but arn't exactly a solid either. The candy in this case is sugar with just enough water added to make it harden into a solid mass, and then this is inverted over tha cluster in the fall.


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## BeeKeep (Mar 30, 2006)

Peggjam, 
Thanks for the reply post. 
I must be dense . . .
I'm envisioning a space problem on top of the frames under the inner cover . . . OR do you keep the cake thickness down around bee space size?

Thanks Again!


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

There's a couple different ways to do this. One is to invert your candy board over the top of the inner cover, the other is to invert it right over the top of the frames, and then put on your cover. The concept of bee space is kinda mute during the winter, as there is no comb building going on. I think the concept of bee space gets taken alittle bit to far. Remember, too wide the bees will burr comb it, to narrow they will proplis it shut, but they won't do much of that during the winter.


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## kamerrill (Sep 17, 2003)

George: I sent you a pm about the feeder plans. In terms of your question about putting anything inside of the feeder - no. They end up building some comb in them to use as ladders. If it gets too much (as with other feeders) I would just cut it out.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>I sent you a pm about the feeder plans.

Got them, thanks!

I've had several days to mull over this feeding question. One idea I came up with was a customized miller-style top feeder, but it's kinda problematic and as peggjam points out, there's a moisture issue with feeding syrup in the winter.

The idea of a candy board begins to make a lot of sense. A local large beekeeper uses them a lot- the two nucs I got from him this spring had about 1.5" of headspace under the lid and I assume this is for a candy cake if necessary. I know they also make candy boards for their regular migratory hives. The candy would provide feed without the moisture problem, in fact, the bees would use what moisture there was to help melt the candy.

More thought...


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## kamerrill (Sep 17, 2003)

You don't need to feed them during the winter if they have 3 1/2 frames of honey and the correct size cluster going into the winter.


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## kamerrill (Sep 17, 2003)

You don't need to feed them during the winter if they have 3 1/2 frames of honey and the correct cluster size going into the winter.

(I should preface that comment with "in my area")

[ May 22, 2006, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: kamerrill ]


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Kamerill
Can you post your plans? Also can you give an idea about the coreect cluster size?

When you say 3 1/2 frames I assume you are talking about a 5 frame deep? Or is it a 10 frame deep divided into 8 frames with 4 per side?

[ May 23, 2006, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: BerkeyDavid ]


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Kammerill, I'd be very interested in more information on what your management is for fall/winter nucs. We winter mostly in SC but are looking to be out of migrating within 5 yrs. I've done some extensive reading but am always happy to learn more from them that's doing it. We are planning on wintering a couple dozen 5 frame nucs in the styrafoam boxes this year. Plan on heavy feeding in the fall and new queens. Like to hear your loss rate and any special management you use through the off season. Thanks!


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

a real interesting thread! just what we are looking for. we over wintered a few five frame nucs. hoping to do more this year. Kammerill do you overwinter all your nucs on parent hives or by them selfs wraped togather? What material do you wrap with? thanks Nick


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I was contemplating taking my 10-frame med boxes and putting a divider in the middle of several making them two 5-frame nucs. I was thinking of using 2 of these one on top of the other to over-winter. 

It will in essence give me 2 10-frame med nucs. 5 frames on the bottom and 5 frames of stores above each one. I think it would make it easier for them to move up rather than them trying to move side to side to get to the winter stores.

I was contemplating the divider board between the two sides. If I take hole saw and cut 2-3 holes in the board and place #8 hardware cloth on each side of the hole would this increase the benefit of sharing the warmth? I was essentially thinking of the benefits of the double screen board. Although this would be vertical not horizontal.

Can anyone think of any reason why this would not be beneficial or is my logic flawed?

Any thoughts on this anyone?

[ June 06, 2006, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Dan Williamson ]


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

[ June 06, 2006, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Dan Williamson ]


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Dan I have been thinking the same thing. I run all mediums too. But I don't like the idea of the screened hole in the divider board. I think it might mess them up with the different pheromes. I think you will get almost the same advantage with a divider board. I am thinking of a 1/4 inch plywood divider board. Also with the screen if one side dies then you are giving them more space to heat and no way to move there, if you follow me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I was thinking of using 2 of these one on top of the other to over-winter. 

The only problem occurs when you lift the top box off and the bees from the two sides start spilling over and the bees from the wrong side start balling the queen.

The only guy I know of doing a similar approach has a seperate inner cover on top of both sides of the first box with holes for feeder jars. He leaves the holes open and he has blocks he can drop in the holes if he wants to keep the bees from spilling out. Then he has the same arrangement on top.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

re: candy board

I made candy board feeders for my hives last year. I used 3/4" outer frame (like an inner cover with no board in the middle. Heated 4 cups sugar and one cup water (over medium-low heat at first until the sugar is dissolved in the water - then turn it up) to 245-250 degrees (firm ball stage)-this will take about 10 minutes longer than you think - getting from 225 to 245 takes quite a bit of boiling. I lined a large baking sheet with waxed paper - put the frame on top of the paper and poured in the "candy" let it cool, peel off the wax paper and Voila! The firm ball stage candy when cooled is "soft" enough that you can cut/chip it out with a knife to make a hole where your inner cover hole is (ventillation). Better to be on the low side temperature wise than the high side. 
PegJam's "candy" made with no heating of water/sugar clearly works for her - I'd just be a little nervous about it breaking off in clumps. For beekeepers with just a few hives and time to do the boiling, it leaves one less thing to worry about.


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## kamerrill (Sep 17, 2003)

I use a grain bag as an inner cover. It seals the nucs from each other. You can lift one side or the other.

The division board feeder has two chambers. Each nuc can enter into it's own feeder chamber through a small hole. 

I don't feed during the winter and allow the feeder to run dry, rather, make sure they have enough to get through until spring (3 1/2 frames of honey for a 4 frame nuc). If I need to feed, I'll drop in another frame of honey (house warmed first).


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## pennstatepitt (Mar 13, 2006)

When you put the two nucs on top of the hive for the winter, do you just keep the bottom board on the nucs or do you put a screen over the whole in the inner cover? 
Thanks


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

I realize I am not in the "true North", but I have overwintered nucs for the last 4 years. My location is Mid-state northern NC with some located in Patrick County, Va. Foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains.
I use 5 frame nucs stacked 2 high. I confine the queen to the bottom and allow the bees to pack the upper box or boxes with honey. When reviewing the nucs condition I will feed until all boxes are packed with honey. Especially the lower box as the queen reduces laying. I try to hold off removing the queen excluder as long as possible. Sometimes this is Thanksgiving and sometimes end of October. But it always depends on the weather forcast. Nucs are best stacked side by side facing opposite directions (1 pr to a stack). I usually try to check them end of Jan./first of Feb.. If they need feeding I will feed them using internal feeders. I try to locate the internal feeders to the sunny side to pick up any solar gain that is possible. I have not insulated them at all. I do reduce the entrance to a very small opening..
Percentage of loss varies 20 to 30 percent.

I experimented with single 5 frame nucs. Thosed headed by Carn. in single boxes survived with a 60% loss. Thosed headed by Ital.s lost 100%

Frank Wyatt
WG Bee Farm 
Eden, NC


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Maine: Do you use an inner cover over the candy board?

Kammerill: Do you staple the feed bag to the divider in the middle?


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## kamerrill (Sep 17, 2003)

>Do you staple the feed bag to the divider in the middle?<

no, they'll stick it down pretty good and you'll need to "peel" it back.


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

so what was the answer on correct cluster size for 3.5 frames?


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

just bumping this up for us to reread.
Waya


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>http://www.nhbeekeepers.org/
(follow the pdf link on the homepage)
>I used a variation of this technique this past winter with really good (and admittedly surprising) success. 

kamerrill, I want to thank you for posting a link to my work. Actually, I didn't know it was out there anwhere. I was planning to send George some photos of nuc boxes, etc, but have been so sick I just couldn't get up the energy. First illness I've had in years. This pdf is better than just some photos. 

The pdf explains the theory well, although I have tweaked things just a bit. From reading the replies on this thread, I see there are others trying to winter nucs in all areas of North America. Great!! There are many configurations being used, and it just confirms to me that it isn't the type of nuc box used, it's what's inside the box that counts. The bees seem to adapt to their space, and as long as there is a good population of acclimatized bees...ie don't allow them to swarm on the fall flow... and enough feed, they will, for the most part, winter successfully. Much of the selection can be done in the nuc form, and the best used for replacements/requeening. The duddards can be used for making more nucs the following summer.

It's my belief that any beekeeper can winter nucs, in whatever climate they are in...I know beeks wintering nucs from Alabama to Alaska, and everywhere in between. It's just a matter of doing it! This method...tweak it however you must...will save your apiaries. It allows each beekeeper to take control of his/her beekeeping, and reduce the dependence on imported...from outside their area...bees and queens. 

If there is anything I can do to help, or questions that I can answer, that's why I joined the group. I'll do what I can. If you would like me to come talk to your beekeeping org, just get me there...preferably during the off season.
Mike


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Berkley: yes, I use inner cover over the candy board. the "high side" if the inner cover has a flat side and a high side (as in Brushy Mntn.) normally the flat side is down but the high side down allows the candy to be thicker. Over that is the homasote insulating board. 

My two overwintered nucs are going to get their first big test tomorrow night through Wednesday night. Forecast is for drop from 31 tomorrow to -3 tomorrow night...then 13 Wed day and -1 Wed night. Thursday is supposed to get back to the high 20's. I'm tempted to throw a down sleeping bag over the entire thing. (Last year I did that in a cold snap and my husband had a fit! {re:ventillation})

MP-
I have my 2 nucs over a strong colony with a special screen my husband built between the two: like a cross between a SBB and a Telescoping cover so the screen is at bottom and top so there is free air flow between the large colony and the nucs above (and some "communication" possible but they can't reach each other.)
I didn't like this idea much because I know that you're using a solid board - but I do like the idea of heat transfer (and staying married- he'd thought it up and built it so that's what we used). Wondering if you've tried this or have a reason against it? (other than needing 800 extra pieces of equipment)

Keeping my fingers crossed for the overwintering of my first home raised Queens/nucs.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>I didn't like this idea much because I know that you're using a solid board -

Yes, I do use solid nuc bottoms above the inner cover. My gut feeling is that the nucs don't need all that moisture that will come up through the screen. But, since I've never done it that way, I can't positively say it's bad for them. You could peek under the nuc's cover...are you using a bag?... and see if they are too wet. I thought mine were getting too wet, so last winter I drilled a 3/4" hole on opposite end from entrance, and that helped.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

I've got mine in two separate 5 frame nucs. They sit well on top of the large colony because of the special screen/telescoping cover which extends the width of the hive enough to put them on. Standard nuc inner cover with homasote insulation. I've checked them pretty regularly up through the beginning of this month - so far so good and thre doesn't seem to be a moisture issue (yet). Occasionally I see bees using the moisture vent as a top entrance for the nucs. Clusters are small and moving toward the center but stores are still good and bees are calm. 
I suppose we'll see about the moisture with these next few days of real cold...


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

I've got mine in two separate 5 frame nucs. They sit well on top of the large colony because of the special screen/telescoping cover which extends the width of the hive enough to put them on. Standard nuc inner cover, homasote insulation board, migratory outer cover. On top of all this I have an old piece of metal (tin?) from something it is flat and large enough to give a a couple of inches of overhang above the whole thing to keep rain from getting in between the hives or onto the exposed side of the homosote in the rain. (metal held down by bricks) I've checked them pretty regularly up through the beginning of this month - so far so good and thre doesn't seem to be a moisture issue (yet). Occasionally I see bees using the moisture vent as a top entrance for the nucs. Clusters are small and moving toward the center but stores are still good and bees are calm. 
I suppose we'll see about the moisture with these next few days of real cold...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

> Occasionally I see bees using the moisture vent as a top entrance for the nucs. 

Good. So, they have a top entrance to help with moisture. I would say then, they should be ok.

>Clusters are small and moving toward the center but stores are still good and bees are calm.

I find that even with a central divider...whether a 3/4" divider of a division board feeder, that the two nucs cluster as one. There aren't two distinct clusters...one in each section...but one cluster with the divider in the middle. They do like the inside. Is that what you are seeing?


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

yes, exactly - they are moving towards the center divider.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Maine-beek
Can you describe the details of the "special screen/telescoping cover"? I'm assuming it is the cover for the Lower hive, and the nucs sit side by side atop it... I'm building nucs up tomorrow and am debating over 4 frame or 5 frame since the 5 frame will hang over a bit... This could be what solves the problem?

waya


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