# Splitting advice for a new beekeeper



## matlock123 (8 mo ago)

Hey all, I am a second year beekeeper. My bees didn't make it last year  I attribute it to being too aggressive and a lack of varroa control. I probably made ill advised splits on my first year package and that strained their resources. Harvesting honey did not help either. I also did not monitor, nor did I treat for varroa. Needless to say the main package hive did not survive nor did the splits.

In any event, I do not want to repeat the sins of last year. Currently I have one strong package colony that I started this spring. It is a full deep, and they are drawing out the medium super at the moment. They started on drawn wax and I have been feeding them. Their mite load was slightly above 1% when I checked 2 weeks ago. I have a medium in the deep box and I am about to remove the soon to be capped drone comb in a day or two. 

During my inspection today I saw 3 swarm cells. They are not capped yet. Upon seeing those I did locate the queen who was alive and healthy. My question is I want to make a split but I dont want a repeat of last year. How should I play this situation? Right now I am leaning towards taking all three swarm cells after they are capped and putting them in a nuc with 2 frames of brood, a few shakes of nurse bees, and a frame of nectar and pollen.

All advice is welcomed. Thank you so much!


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

That sounds like a pretty good plan. You may also want to consider taking the Queen to another box (I’d probably start her off in an eight or ten frame though, as she would likely have the colony ready to burst out of a nuc within a couple weeks) and leave the swarm cells where they are. I wouldn’t do multiple splits from the same hive at one time until you are able to get one built up and through the winter.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Your profile does not say where you are located, and that can be a factor in how you do a split. There are many ways to do one, depending on the environment and the desired outcome. From what I've read in this thread, I'm thinking a fly-back split might be a good choice. Read more here...








Fly-back splits, Ray's way


OK, here is the way that I like for making up fly-back splits. I thought I'd post it to share as I get asked about it now and then. These can be done when you have a hive of 2 boxes in strength, and works better when a flow is on, but can be done with feeders if needed. Doing a flyback split...




www.beesource.com


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

I would check this first Supersedure vs. Swarm: How to Identify Queen Cells | Dadant & Sons

I think bees usually swarm before swarm cells are capped.

Maybe it will be better to do OTS without notching as you already have queen cells. If you have enough brood move the queen with 1-2 frames of capped brood to a nuc and feed them. 

This explains better what I am talking about OTS:


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## matlock123 (8 mo ago)

Thank you for the advice. I am in Charlotte NC. The bloom is strong right now, but I am not sure when it ends. Probably within the next month or two Id guess.

I will move the queen and a few frames to a new box tomorrow. There wont be any issues with the split being in the same apiary? The queen wont try to go back?


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

matlock123 said:


> Thank you for the advice. I am in Charlotte NC. The bloom is strong right now, but I am not sure when it ends. Probably within the next month or two Id guess.
> 
> I will move the queen and a few frames to a new box tomorrow. There wont be any issues with the split being in the same apiary? The queen wont try to go back?


I never had the queen going back in my small backyard. I move her like 25 ft away from the original hive. She stays with nurse bees and the capped brood and her nuc/hive needs not as much attention as uncapped left in original place.
But if those were supersedure cells probably the best would be to leave the hive as is.

BTW: OTS asks for min 6 frames with brood


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

If you placed the Queen in the original hive when she was already mated, there is virtually zero chance she would fly back in that hive if you pulled her in a split. She’s never left since the day you placed her in there and isn’t oriented to that hive. Can’t promise she won’t swarm or abscond to somewhere else, but that’s always a risk. 

I’m in Raleigh. Flow in the NC piedmont and foothills will most likely last until at least the beginning of June, usually sometime toward mid-June. If we are lucky, it may go until late June. Dearth usually hits pretty hard in July and into early to mid-August. After that there’s usually a few things that will bloom, goldenrod, aster, etc.


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## matlock123 (8 mo ago)

Nube, thanks for the local info!

So would you recommend my initial plan of moving the swarm cells, or do you think its better to move the queen to a new box? Also I probably have around 6 or 7 frames of brood. The rest is nectar.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

so I'll offer my opinion and what I would do.
first 3 is more likely a supercedure.
2nd 10 frames of bees point to a 2 way or 3 way split, depending on if the cells are on more than one frame.
I would pull the frame with cells out and a couple frames of brood, so 3 frames, into a NUC box or other box.
then shake in one more frame. take this to a new stand, if you had bees last year fill this and the other box with comb. leave the bees togather do not checker board. Insure the queen is not in the NUC, do not shake frames with QCs on them.

the feild bees will return to the old stand so you want the old queen there, IF this was a supercedure, then they will make 3 more cells shortly and you can do this again. I read on book where the author got 12 splits out of a failing queen before the old queen failed, so this can be a good thing to harness.

on day 1 for the NUC treat with OA, vapor, as you did not state the treatment method, I had to assume one. then vape again after the queen is mated, so you need to keep track of her progress with a calendar. as she starts to lay treat on day 3 and day 6 so you get 2 vapes in before day 8 when the brood is sealed. that should make the NUC mites knocked down.

the old hive would need a vape every 3 days for 15 days 5 treatments.

If the old hive again has 2or 3 cells you can repeat the process. at some point the old queen will fail, add her bees to the other splits, to have all new queens for winter. likely the later splits are smaller, so try to make them all the same size, then get them ready for winter. 3 splits would be doable, >4 aggressive, for the summer.

GG


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## matlock123 (8 mo ago)

Gray goose, the cells are on 3 different frames. Also I do not have another apiary to take the split to unfortunately. Will this change anything in your assessment? Thank you again for your advice.

Also the cells are in the middle of the frames so I think that also suggests supercedure. Interesting as she is a first year queen and seems to be laying OK to my novice eye.


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

As I mentioned in my first post, I would not recommend that you try to get multiple splits from one splitting event. No offense is intended to the OP or anyone who would split that hive into a bunch of small nucs, but from the OP’s first post it seems that you tried multiple splits from the same splitting event last year and it didn’t go well. Learn to get one split through the year and into next spring. If you can do that, then it would be appropriate, in my opinion, to attempt to pull two splits from the same splitting event next year if the opportunity arises. If, after performing the split, one of the colonies boosts back up really strong before the end of June, then another split would be an option. If it is a swarm (entirely likely since cells are on multiple frames and it’s also likely that a second year beek may have missed a couple of other cells _once again, no offense intended. Even keepers with decades of experience occasionally miss a cell or two_) then moving the Queen is your best bet for avoiding a swarm. You can do so in the original location, but it requires much more management and intervention (lots of checking for and destroying cells as the split likely won’t deter them immediately). If it’s a supercedure, then it would probably be best to leave the queen in the original location, but still wouldn’t hurt if she were moved so long as eggs can be moved into the split with the queen and supercedure is still an option for them if they need it. Sometimes the bees know something we don’t when it comes to supercedure, but, if her brood pattern looks good and you find plenty of eggs and all the stages of brood in good healthy numbers, a swarm event is more likely, even with only a handful of cells.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

well 3 different frames adds "options" maybe destroy the smallest one, and make 3 splits.
old queen on old stand with no QCs
best cell with 2 frames of bees and 1 shook frame on new stand
2nd best cell on 2 frames of bees with 1 shook frame on second new stand.
put the cell frame in the center of the 3 to insure warmth.
the old queen can have the least bees, she will get a few foragers back from the drift.

any queen can be superceded, if you purchased her then the odds go up.
for what ever reason the bees do not like her.
do you have any bee buddies with bees, could if all 3 cells look good put 1 in a friends split.

you have a problem I want 5 of  single cells on frames, you only need a few more bees.

good luck on what you do.
you also can let one cell stay with the queen and let her be replaced. they likely will try again any way.
not every cell will make a mated queen , some get lost, cannot fly, get eaten by predator's, etc.

I would make 2 splits, if one fails merge it back to the parent, if/when they make more cells try again. a good learning experience.

GG


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## matlock123 (8 mo ago)

Since the queen cells are not capped I should have at least a week before they emerge. The weather is not ideal today as it is misty and rainy so I will inspeect the hive again tommorow and will provide an update. I will try to attach pictures as well. Thanks again for all of the responses!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

matlock123 said:


> Since the queen cells are not capped I should have at least a week before they emerge. The weather is not ideal today as it is misty and rainy so I will inspeect the hive again tommorow and will provide an update. I will try to attach pictures as well. Thanks again for all of the responses!


right wait until they are capped, to split the whole hive can feed them that way.
uncapped should be pre day 8 of 16 fyi

GG


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## matlock123 (8 mo ago)

Attached are photos of my inspection today. There were 5 total that I spotted. I included extra photos to show the general healthiness of the hive, brood pattern, and how many bees are present. Given that there are 5 cells that makes it more likely swarm cells than supercedure? I am guessing they feel cramped as they are only just starting to draw out the medium box on top (no queen excluder). 

In the deep box the 2 outer frames on each side are full of honey, the other 8 frames were pretty much various stages of brood. From what you see here would it be too aggressive to try and split this hive into 2 additional hives? I have pollen sub if that would be helpful in helping the splits. Thank you so much for the advice.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

did you find the queen?
if no make an even 1/2 split, 5 and 5
try to make it as even as you can with brood, stores and bees.

IMO if there is no queen this still could be a Supercedure.
swarm cells in general are not in the middle of the comb.

if you can find the queen then that would be the only way I would do a 3 way.
2 frames with the old queen in the old location, and 2- 4 frame splits.
making sure there is a cell or queen in each split.

GG


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

I agree that looks more like a supercedure, but, if the queen is not in that hive, then they have already swarmed. They can swarm any time after the cells are capped. They will even swarm before they are capped if you’ve intervened and crushed some queen cells, but not pulled the original queen off in a split.

If you cannot find the queen, I’d do as GG suggested and do an even split. If you can find the queen, I would stick with my original advice and recommend pulling her out of the hive, but placing her into a nuc. Make sure no queen cells are moved with her, but do make certain that one frame has some eggs and very young larva. Check back in a week and, if there are any Queen cells, I’d say you are likely looking at a supecedure. If there are no queen cells, but eggs are being laid, I’d move them into a bigger box and assume that, even with a few queen cells having been located in the middle of the comb on that hive, that they were looking to swarm.

If you do find the queen and split her off, I would destroy all but 2 or 3 of the Queen cells left in the original hive. Preferably leaving a few cells on the same frame or frames next to one another.

Hive looks fairly healthy from what I can see on the pics and the capped brood pattern is quite nice. I’d do what I could to give the bees and you the opportunity to keep that queen going. I think pulling her out of there in a split is the best option for achieving that, whether you are looking at a swarm or a supercedure.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

That does not look like enough bees to split well (looks like only 5 frames of bees maybe), it will take a really strong late season nectar flow to get any honey off them.


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## matlock123 (8 mo ago)

JustBees, I think you may be looking at the medium super that they are just starting to draw out. The deep box is full of bees (It is the picture that shows both boxes side by side. The deep is on bottom of picture, medium is on top of the picture). In any event my goal is not honey production this year. Ill let you guys know what I find this afternoon and how I end up splitting it. Thank you so much for the advice.


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## matlock123 (8 mo ago)

Its a good news, bad news situation.... mostly bad news I suppose.

I was not able to find the queen but there were very young eggs in there, although not many. I take this to mean that she left yesterday at some point (it was below 55 this morning and I did not see any suspicious activity). It is possible I just did not see the queen during my inspection, but I looked at every frame 3 different times so this is not likely.

The good news is that I did not notice any major drop in the bee population, so if she swarmed she didn't take very many bees with her, certainly not half. I ended up splitting it as equitably as I could, each box got 2 swarm cells and I removed the rest. Both are getting sugar syrup, and I will give it to them as long as they will take it. Although given how much honey stores they have I would think the limiting resource would be pollen. Would you recommend a pollen patty in my situation?

Also, would a lesson here be that if I see queen cups/cells I should make a plan of action and act ASAP before they are capped? (swarm leaves at any point after capping?)

Thanks again all.


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

Sounds like the split went fairly well. I’m sorry you didn’t find the queen. If you have each part of the split on several drawn frames and the rest foundation, then feeding is probably a good idea. It will encourage them to draw comb. Having said that, I wouldn’t give them more than a quart or two a week until you are able to get back into those hives and ensure they aren’t backfilling the area the queen will be needing to lay in (they should be left alone next weekend and not inspected until the weekend after that, at the earliest).

I know it is unusually cold today, but the weather should be better the rest of the week. Unless you are in downtown Charlotte and there isn’t much in the way of natural forage, pollen substitute shouldn’t be needed right now. They should be getting plenty from blackberry, dandelion and several other sources.

In the future, yes, action is needed when you find queen cells, especially if it is the right time of year for swarming. If they aren’t capped you can try destroying them all, but you’ll need to check that every handful of days, as doing it once likely won’t be enough to dissuade them and they can leave before cells are capped if you’ve destroyed them all once or twice. Once they are capped, you need to either find the Queen immediately, if she’s still there, and pull her out into a split, or, if she can’t be found, either cull the cells down to just a few in that hive or a few in multiple hives, if you feel the population can support that.


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## matlock123 (8 mo ago)

Since neither split currently has a queen, how would their homing instinct work? I understand normally most bees would return to the original hive, but in this case would they still do that as much since there was no queen there?

Also NUBE you seem to know a lot for only having 2 packages installed 3/20/22. Do you have prior experience?


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

The foragers will still go back to the original hive location unless you move them several miles away, doesn’t really matter about the queen status. If you left one in the original location and you are worried the other might not have enough bees, you can always add a shake from a brood frame of the original hive (one that doesn’t have a queen cell on it. Don’t shake queen cells). 


Yeah, check my joined date. Before last year, it had been a few years, but I kept bees for many years a few years back. Won’t pretend I know everything or that I’m always right, and I’m always learning new things. But definitely not a first year beek.


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