# major ccd loss



## RDY-B

http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/blogs/bees/almonds-55021901 anybody else hear about this one-yesterday when i read this there where names of keepers today the names have been omitted the big lose came from adde honey -is this common knowledge -RDY-B 3-6-08 http://www.vanishingbees.com/blog/


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## peggjam

Boy, that's sad.


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## LSPender

*obervation*

The losses are not easy to take, I've been thru this myself, this year and past years.
I only say the following as my opinion and obsevation.

Even if we are lossing hives we still need to deliver a quality product, as advertised, to the grower. If the contact is for 6 frames that what should be delivered.

Unfortunatally some of those hive that were empty and should have stayed at the holding yard were delivered to pollination contacts, I do encourage the growers to check the hives to confirm what they are paying for. 

I looked at 4 sets of 24 hives each and you would be pushing a 2 frame ave. with multiple hives having no queen or a fist full of bees from the unnamed large beek in the lost hills region.

I hope together we find a method to win against what ever is killing the bees.

Larry


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## Barry Digman

Maryam, the woman who wrote the piece, was in Arizona for the organic meeting this past weekend. She was interviewing people for her documentary about the vanishing bees. She needs money to finish the project, in case anyone wants to help out.


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## MichaelW

I didn't realize Kim Flottum had this online article series. Nice! Here's a good article that includes problems researchers are facing trying to address the problem.

http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/blogs/bees/save-the-bees-ccd-45013008


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## WG Bee Farm

BarryW,
Kim stated that two major queen producers retired, do you or anyone else know who they are.
I am small compared to some of these keepers, but none the less I have invested what I consider major money in this business; and I am concerned. I suspect everyone on this list is as they should bee. 
Frank


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## BjornBee

Did they retire and just burn the equipment? What does "retire" mean. It means nothing if they retired but yet passed on or sold the business. Didn't a major company in Hawaii sell out and the owners retired? (OHB bought them) But that could hardly fit into the "loss of 75,000 queens that will now NOT be produced". So the article (from MichaelW) suggests that two queen producers retired and their entire operation now is no longer in existence. Not sold, not passed onto anyone....just gone from the face of the earth. I'd be interested in knowing the details of why they retired in the manner the story suggests.


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## MapMan

I had a hard time reading the article. Not just because it describes a saddening situation, but because it isn't very well written. I know that Kim wrote the article after his rather traumatic experience, so perhaps that is why he wrote it with a jumble of sporadic thoughts. 

I respect Flottum's experience and expertise in beekeeping, however, as an editor of _Bee Culture_ I would think that the articles which he writes should have some semblance of order. I can't stand trying to read about something as important as CCD, and having to reread it in order to make sense of the story. Perhaps Flottum should take some journalism classes. 

Examples abound: The lead is a run-on sentence. I think that the editor forgot to place a period in the middle of the lead. Holocaust - did they burn the bees? Mass exodus - ambiguous - an exodus is a mass departure.
"There was no food for the bees, nothing to forage" - Repeat - if there was no food, I guess logically there would be no forage.

“Beekeepers are not activists, they’re just going to quietly slip away,”. What a judgmental statement. Apparently the beekeeper that was quoted hasn't logged onto BeeSource to see that we aren't going to slip away without a fight. 

True, perhaps we're not activists, but we're advocates. Activists protest, advocates accomplish.

MM


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## Kieck

Maryam Henein wrote the article, not Kim Flottum. But I tend to agree. I thought, too, that it was poorly written. It certainly didn't seem to fit a logical pattern of organization. And the details were largely lacking. I was left with the impression that the unnamed beekeeper lost 40,000 hives, but I wonder if that's true?

As far as the beekeeper's statement about not being activists, I think he's probably right. He said it, it was quoted and "attributed" to, well, an anonymous beekeeper, but it is a direct quotation. Likely others have similar thoughts. Whether or not you agree is a matter of opinion.

But I haven't seen much in the way of "activism" or "advocating" when it comes to CCD. So far as I know, beekeepers are reluctant to admit losses (as demonstrated by the removal of names from the story), federal funding for research is negligible, and beekeepers have not put up money to fund continuing research on CCD.


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## Joel

Interesting the 1st. article written by someone I assume is not a beekeeper and the one item that comes out clear in the story relates to nutritional stress. 

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Bjorns point of where the equipment ends up and what retirement means is one we need to keep in mind. 

Who will fill this void and Who's next? 

How terrible this must be for the owner, all the employees, not to mention the owner of the crop that did not get pollinated.


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## Dan Williamson

beekeepers are reluctant to admit losses 

I expect this is because of several reasons... 

1) if they sell bees (hives, nucs, queens etc) they may be afraid of lost business obviously.

2) they may be worried that their ability to pollinate will be questioned. They'd rather try to make up the losses and not have the farmer know anything may be amiss.

3) They don't want anyone testing/analyzing their treatment methods for fear they will be found to be using illegal or not 

Not that this hasn't already been discussed but... I can understand beekeepers not wanting their names published.


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## MapMan

You're correct, Kieck. I noticed Flottum's name in the banner at the top of the page, missed the byline by Henein, and attributed the article to Flottum. My apologies to Kim. But, as an editor, he should ask for a complete rewrite.

I think that the events surrounding CCD are so new, and so mysterious that beekeepers have gotten into the push-pull strategy of tug-of-war with the situation. There has to be some sort of accountability, and understandably, "names have been changed to protect the innocent". Sort of like the analogy where ****roaches have ravaged an apartment building, exterminators are called in to spray apartment after apartment, but the critters keep coming back. Well, there is one holdout renter who doesn't call the exterminator, because she has a "clean" apartment, and might be embarrassed to admit that they are taking up residence in her place. 

Maybe we'd get further in the fight if beekeepers assessed and reported their specific hive management practices. Then we might find one or more common denominators.

MM


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## peggjam

"Bjorns point of where the equipment ends up and what retirement means is one we need to keep in mind. 

Who will fill this void and Who's next?"

I would guess that it depends on whether there is anything other than empty equipment left to sell. A queen and package business with no bees to sell would be a hard sell for a prospective seller.


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## Kieck

> beekeepers are reluctant to admit losses
> 
> I expect this is because of several reasons... -Dan Williamson


Sure, and that makes sense to me. But that doesn't mesh with "activism" or "advocating change" to my way of thinking. It does seem to fit the "slip-quietly-away" model, in my opinion.

I can certainly understand beekeepers not wanting their names associated specifically with CCD. But sooner or later we (beekeepers) will have to fish or cut bait. Either we step forward and try to reach some conclusions about the problem, or we continue to deny that "I" have a problem (but "you" might) and wind up fading away.


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## Sundance

Wow....... I can only imagine. Devestating. In a small way I can
guess how they feel. I, like many others here, have taken big
hits. It can (and did for me) knock you off your feet and game.

Sorry to hear it, sickening really.


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## Gene Weitzel

*Names not redacted*

Here are links to a google cached version of the article that does not have the names redacted if anyone is interested (don't know how long it will be available):

For Firefox:
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...per&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a 

For IE
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache... beekeeper&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=ie


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## MapMan

Thank you, Gene. Easier to read. I'll tell you, reading the redacted article was like reading censored blocks in classified documents. Editors! Geeesh!

MM


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## florida pollinator

I returned a phone call monday to one of last years large CCD victims, who was riding thru that staging area and taking pictures ,while on the phone.
You could sense the sickness in his voice from seeing thousands of empty hives setting there,which he said was mind blowing.
I'm told that the "beekeeper" with the loses is bidding high for any extra bees available to try and fill contracts.


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## MichaelW

Ah the wonders of technology and the cache. Looks like Kim edited more than just names. I say he did about as good as you can with the original piece without completely rewriting it. An editor shouldn't rewrite. He could have not posted the piece, but its still important information thats not going to get out otherwise. Until the USDA puts out the promised money into this problem, all we'll have is random investigations whenever someone can squeeze some funds, have a convenient opportunity, or be looking for some other opportunity out of the situation like making a movie about it. To quote Jim Fisher's article last spring,
“The skilled experts who support
beekeeping have been victims of
a ‘Disappearing Disease’ of their
own. The cause of this disease
is clear – no one gave a ****
about bees.”

If the USDA follows through, I see bee science never getting back to 
the shape it is. With money you can bring in more money, but its
critical to give the needed boost.


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## soupcan

*I think I am SICK!!!!!*

I have been on the phone for over the last 2 hours.
I had no idea that this CCD deal is worse this year than last year.
When it is all said & done there will be at least 150K hives short in the almonds.
Every one has the same story.
Looked good up north, loaded them on the truck & now they ar almost all dead in CA.
This is from beeks from all across the country.
Just talked with one of my queen people.
He is down in Mexico putting on patties.
50% winter loss in the last 4 weeks.
This is just nuts.
Won't be a good nites sleep tonite.
And yes the story abot the " Big Guy " losses are true!


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## Barry Digman

Gene Weitzel said:


> Here are links to a google cached version of the article that does not have the names redacted if anyone is interested (don't know how long it will be available)


(The Snorbert thing piqued my interest...
http://www.langston.com/Fun_People/1994/1994AXG.html)



I thought the article was ok. The author was over in Oracle last weekend interviewing beekeepers. She's working on a documentary, and although not an experienced beek, she seemed to have garnered as much knowledge as many of the beeks who actually had bees. She's sincere about the issue, and although she has a clear agenda that's oriented towards a wholistic view of things I thought she displayed a decent understanding of CCD.


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## mobees

*Losses*

Does anyone know the details of the pollen substitute that was
used?


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## tecumseh

peggjam writes:
I would guess that it depends on whether there is anything other than empty equipment left to sell. A queen and package business with no bees to sell would be a hard sell for a prospective seller

tecumseh sober adds:
odd how any number of member seem concerned about the empty unused equipment but seem totally unaware of the expertise and knowledge lost when these old hands retire.

which will go extinct first... the honeybee or the beekeeper?


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## MapMan

soupcan said:


> I have been on the phone for over the last 2 hours.
> I had no idea that this CCD deal is worse this year than last year.
> When it is all said & done there will be at least 150K hives short in the almonds.
> Every one has the same story.
> Looked good up north, loaded them on the truck & now they ar almost all dead in CA.
> This is from beeks from all across the country.
> Just talked with one of my queen people.
> He is down in Mexico putting on patties.
> 50% winter loss in the last 4 weeks.
> This is just nuts.
> Won't be a good nites sleep tonite.
> And yes the story abot the " Big Guy " losses are true!



Any idea on casualties? The article cited states that Brett Adee sent 36,400 out to the almonds, but the journalist(?) never gave us a count. What have you been able to determine? We were at this guessing game last spring too.

MM


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## Joel

I think this could be pretty important but I think we need to first ask if this has been confirmed as CCD? 

If or when it has been confirmed will we see these hives or equipment available for in depth inspection by the CCD team?

Last year was the fluke, if this year is as big as the story and as big as Soup can is saying there will be certainly be a paradigm shift in our industry this year.

I don't think we should be chalking losses up to CCD until we get confirmation. The panic the press will make from this either way will like significantly impact all of us soon. The impact on an already stressed agricultural system could be catastrophic.

Has anyone considered the possibility this might not be a natural happenstance but some form of agricultural terrorism? Sounds pretty far fetched I know but we as an industry better confirm what is and not be excluding any possibility. As much as last year this seemed like the emporers new clothes if this is confirmed we all better hang onto our hats, Not since the AFB kill has anything like been seen in our industry.

As a thought in the back of my mind most things come down to some type of money trail. Is there one here?


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## Gene Weitzel

Barry Digman said:


> (The Snorbert thing piqued my interest...
> http://www.langston.com/Fun_People/1994/1994AXG.html)


Barry,

My 8th grade algebra teacher clipped that Pogo episode from the paper one day and used it in class as a prop (showing my age here). Snorbert Zangox has been a favorite of mine every since. I keep a copy of the clip hanging on the wall in my office.


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## mbholl

Such big losses are scary. I thought the small hives (<6 frames) didn't do much good as pollinators? I have about 200 4-5 framers that are not committed, and my broker doesn't seem interested. Should I really be looking to see if somebody wants to rent them for almonds?

Up in Wasco/Delano area yesterday; just starting to see some early bloom.


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## florida pollinator

I would be bypassing the broker and looking around to rent them.I would think that a grower with a choice of no hive verses a 4 or 5 framer would have a simple selection.


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## soupcan

*Here is more of what I found out!!!!l*

Called our good friend Jim Paysen of JZBS plastics.
Our family has known Jim for over 25+ years.
The bottom line isfrom Jim is there is a hell of a mess in the almonds & in the beekeeeping business in general.
Jim is in his 80's & very very sharp for his age.
Jim knows darn near evryone in this bee business.
Yes the big guy has a huge loss as reported.
He has never seen the good beeks as he knows ( and so have we ) whith this huge problem.
I have been told of a good number of outfits that have just put stuff in storage untill some one can tell them what is killing the bees.
This deal is far ranging to say the least.
So stop & think about this deal, let us take 20 or so of the big guys out of the mix & see what wood ware & other beekeeking items would go to for price.
We the smaller people depend on the big guys to keep the saw mills running for us to get a really good price on wood & what ever else you can think of in this business.
Honey prices are moving up at a alarming rate due to the lack of honey in this global market & the poor quality of bees in America.
Every one needs to get the news meda involved in this deal ASAP.
There is no way in the world the the number losses we are told of that can be replaced in the next few months.
As one researcher told me the other day is that " Rich the only thing we at this point that I can find in connecton with this problem is the air the bees & humans breath & human contact with the hives".
I would ask that we all get a call in to the people at the national level & the press.
This if just the 1st phase.
We 1st fought the t/mites then the v/mites & next came the SHB.
All the above we can see.
This deal we seem to have no eyes to help us.


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## Keith Jarrett

Well soupcan, I disagree with most you have said.

Almonds are taking 40,000 hives more this year than last AND still there are SEVEN ads in the modesto bee & FOUR ads in the fresno bee, BEES FOR RENT. Why is that....

The drop and run guy's from out of state have problem's.

Those are the same guys that came up with "field run bees" .

That means.... you move them in the field AND run.


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## peggjam

"Almonds are taking 40,000 hives more this year than last AND still there are SEVEN ads in the modesto bee & FOUR ads in the fresno bee, BEES FOR RENT. Why is that...."

Keith

How long have these ads been running in relation to how long we have known about the one keepers large losses? I would think that if these losses were just discovered recently, then those advertised bees are already rented. Call one of those ads and find out for us.


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## Keith Jarrett

PG,
those ads are running in todays papers. I also know of 1000 plus hives that are as of yet rented.


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## Barry Digman

Joel said:


> As a thought in the back of my mind most things come down to some type of money trail. Is there one here?


Absolutely. Chemical companies, land grant colleges, tenure track researchers, private/public "partnering" agreements, pollinators, etc. Each and every one has a vested interest in CCD, and oddly enough, they aren't all the same.


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

This is a devastating blow to those affected. I extend my regards and best wishes to everyone affected. When a beekeeper looses the majority of his hives, it's equally as devastating regardless of the size of the operation.

Now for my rant.

CCD is not a new problem. It has been around before mites, before feedlot beekeeping and before migratory beekeeping was common. It has devastated commercial beekeepers on a widespread scale in the past. And although the size of commercial outfits are 10 times the size they were back then, a 90+% loss was as economically devastating then as now. I know because I lost 400 hives/week the same way over 30 years ago.

And the reason no one knew of a real beekeeper that had it, was anyone who had it and shared the fact was labelded as a PPM and automatically marginalized. Those that had experienced it, saw the same mystifying symptoms as those who have witnessed CCD today. And it didn't take a 'real' beekeeper to know that something very unusual was happening. Only a few researchers took the reports seriously. And, I think they were marginalized as well. Not much money in back then.

But those who hadn't experienced it 'knew better' than those that had. And the major beekeeping organizations parroted the PPM assessment. I sure don't know why. Maybe to protect the pure honey name.

Today, it's a little different. More money, maybe? Certainly anyone who's teaching bugs is interested in researching it. Or are at least being interview about it. The same old mantras are being proposed about PPMed beekeepers, that is until a 'real' one gets affected and then it's only inferred. And now everyone, who has any sense is worried, as all those bees camp together in the almonds.

Good luck to everyone involved. I hope this round of disappearing disease gets the attention it deserves. If the past is any indication, it will disappear and then resurface to surprise yet another round of PPMed beekeepers.

Regards
Dennis


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## Jim Fischer

> Chemical companies, land grant colleges, tenure track researchers,
> private/public "partnering" agreements, pollinators, etc. 
> Each and every one has a vested interest in CCD, and oddly enough, 
> they aren't all the same. 

Can you attach some specific names and cite their stated interests,
or speculate about the "vested interests" of each? Any specific
examples at all here? 

'Cause I can't think of a single person or group that can be accused
of having a vested interest.

I've been working with people from each classification listed, and the
common theme so far, the only common theme I've seen at all has been
that each has been stealing/embezzling money set aside for other
purposes to attempt to help out with this CCD thing. They've been
literally risking being fired or disciplined very harshly for playing games
with the budgets and the rules of how money is handled.

Kim recently ranted a bit about how we STILL haven't seen "dime one"
of any actual allocations of money:
http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/blogs/bees/red-tape-55022202

It is one thing to sit on the sidelines and critique or deny that there is a
problem. It is another to talk with the principals, and realize how many of
them could be summarily fired for their efforts to help us.

The irony of the conspiracy theorists is they are the ones producing
the misinformation that causes people to believe in conspiracy theories.


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## Barry

WG Bee Farm said:


> BarryW,


Hey, have we witnessed a morph? Evolution right before our eyes!


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## Nick Noyes

To start off with I am not trying to downplay any problems facing the industry right now. There are some huge problems facing all of us right now.
However I don't believe there is a shortage of 150k hives in the almonds right now. There is probably a shortage but not at that level.


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## Barry Digman

Jim Fischer said:


> Can you attach some specific names and cite their stated interests,
> or speculate about the "vested interests" of each? Any specific
> examples at all here?
> 
> 'Cause I can't think of a single person or group that can be accused
> of having a vested interest.


I suspect your understanding of "vested" is not the same as mine. 



> Vested interest is a communication theory that seeks to explain how influences impact behaviors. Coined by William Crano, vested interest refers to the amount that an attitude object is deemed hedonically relevant by the attitude holder (Crano, 1995). In other words, if an attitude object is deemed to have important perceived personal consequences, then that object is of high vested interest. For example, a 30 year old individual is told that the legal driving age is being raised from 16 to 17 in his state. While he may not agree with this law, it does not affect him as much as the 15 year old prospective vehicle operator. This example illustrates the point that highly vested attitudes concerning issues are related to an individual’s point of view of the situation.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vested_interest





Barry Digman has a vested interest in CCD in that he does not want to lose his tiny little apiary. Bayer has a vested interest in that they would like to sell the chemicals that help farmers raise more crops without being accused of being the source of the CCD problem. The Adee's have a vested interest in that they'd like to be able to fulfill their contracts without losing thousands of hives, and the almond growers that they are contracted with would like to make a crop. The folks selling things like MegaBee would like to provide us with at least a partial solution to the nutritional aspect of CCD, which many think is important. University researchers would like to come up with answers, as that's what they're paid to do.

In short, all of us who are involved in beekeeping have a vested interest in CCD, whether we're hobbiests, pollinators, researchers, or suppliers.


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## Ian

I have been informed that alot of the losses in California is probably due to bad weather, and bad foraging conditions which are leading to massive amounts of hive starvations, to those who arnt feeding liquid and protien supplements. Quite unfortunate, it sounds like a tough business in the Almond patch!

Those losses aside, have there actually been diagnosed signs of CCD losses also there?


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## Jim Fischer

Ian, there is a team from the Baton Rouge USDA bee lab onsite
and gathering up samples. There are several interesting cases
where not only were bees being well-fed, but a slow "spreading"
of a problem was noted by those who were feeding the hives.

Yes, a lot of the losses could very well be simple starvation due to
less-than robust provisioning, a delayed bloom, and bad weather.
But some of these cases look to be clear-cut cases of classic CCD
of the sort we have come to dread.

> I suspect your understanding of "vested" is not the same as mine.

Your recasting of your comment is noted. 

But I will repeat my still-unanswered question as to who you might 
have spoken with at any time who might be called a "principal" in 
the CCD effort to get your impressions.

Your use of the term "vested interest" was in direct reply to Joel's
question about "money", so if you want to now attempt to recolor
your comments, you'll have to provide more detail as to the specific
"vested interests" of specific parties rather than offering further 
generalizations.

I guess you could say that my "vested interest" is in the facts.


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## Barry Digman

Jim Fischer said:


> But I will repeat my still-unanswered question as to who you might
> have spoken with at any time who might be called a "principal" in
> the CCD effort to get your impressions.
> 
> Your use of the term "vested interest" was in direct reply to Joel's
> question about "money", so if you want to now attempt to recolor
> your comments, you'll have to provide more detail as to the specific
> "vested interests" of specific parties rather than offering further
> generalizations.
> 
> I guess you could say that my "vested interest" is in the facts.



Do I really have to call Monsanto or Dow or Bayer and ask if they're a charity or a business? Do I have to call up the universities and get a notarized statement from a researcher that states "Yes, we have an interest in studying stuff like CCD and the better our research is the more funding we receive"? Shall I call the almond growers and ask for scientific proof that they're interested in raising a profitable crop? 

We're talking an industry here. Of course there's a money trail.



Come to think of it, your accusation that people are stealing and embezzling money should be proof enough that there's a money trail, don't you think?



> I've been working with people from each classification listed, and the
> common theme so far, the only common theme I've seen at all has been
> that each has been stealing/embezzling money set aside for other
> purposes to attempt to help out with this CCD thing.



Perhaps you'd like to post the names of principles who are stealing this money? Surely their bosses would like to know. Dealing in facts and all that....


p.s. Glad to see you back and posting.


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## Ian

>>these cases look to be clear-cut cases of classic CCD
of the sort we have come to dread.


That really bites!


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## florida pollinator

an article I ran across out of the great left coast.
http://www.siskiyoudaily.com/articles/2008/02/19/news/100news7.txt


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## RDY-B

Many-Many articles these days -I will give my 2 cents on the suply of bees for pollination -there is not a shortage -but bees are TIGHT -the smoke will clear -RDY-B http://www.pressdemocrat.com/EarlyEdition/article_view.cfm?recordID=8704&publishdate=02/23/2008


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## tecumseh

jim fischer writes:
I've been working with people from each classification listed, and the
common theme so far, the only common theme I've seen at all has been
that each has been stealing/embezzling money set aside for other
purposes to attempt to help out with this CCD thing. They've been
literally risking being fired or disciplined very harshly for playing games
with the budgets and the rules of how money is handled.

tecumseh replies with a comment partially directed at mr digman:
jim and I (likely) have some idea as to how university research really works (which is not to suggest that either he or I have a vest interest in research dollars). most well funded programs* are always stealing money from one pocket to get started on some program (question) that has greater current interest or possiblities, but for which no monies has been allocated yet. This then give those individuals (with other funding) a bit of a jump on their competition (and the person who gets the right answer first wins in this little horse race).

I suspect that the reseracher (at this point) are whining because there were promises made and no money has come along to back up those promises. If you have NO CLUE as to exactly how underfunded basic research in the us of a really is then might I suggest you explore this topic and call you representative or senator and suggest they FOCUS on this problem (and which directly makes this country less secure daily).

*monies are now so tight for basic research that a 'well funded researcher' is much more likely to be properly connected than to pocess a superior mind or have formulate some innovative question (at least that's how it appears to me). 

then jim fischer writes: 
The irony of the conspiracy theorists is they are the ones producing
the misinformation that causes people to believe in conspiracy theories.

tecumseh replies:
well jim conspiracies exist and they likely exist much more often than most folks might suspect. the exact opposite of conspiracy theory is coincidence theory... whereby you believe everything happens in a totally random nature with events occuring totally outside the influence of groups of people. history would suggest that the latter theory is much more likely to be 'wishful thinking' than the prior theory. 

I do (think??) I get your drift... however. I would suggest that these so call theorist are more likely to be attempting to SELL their theory than to PROVE their theory.

Lastly... always glad to read your comments and (like mr digman) glad to see that you wander back thru these parts from time to time. ps... I noted in an old bee magazine a fischer bee lift... any connection?


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## Jim Fischer

tecumseh said:

> I noted in an old bee magazine a fischer bee lift... any connection?

Nope, not me. The "Fisher's Famous Honey Sticks" guy is ALSO not me. 
(Note the spelling difference) 


Barry Digman asked:

> Do I really have to call Monsanto or Dow or Bayer and ask if they're a
> charity or a business?

Yes, you really *do*! 

You will be pleasantly surprised to find out that in regard to CCD,
they have been DONATING* SIGNIFICANT *RESOURCES for well over a year,
despite the misguided critiques and insulting comments being tossed in their
general direction by beekeepers.

Here are two researchers on pesticide toxicity at Bayer:

[email protected]
[email protected]

And a very senior PR executive at Bayer:

[email protected]

And here's something I wrote nearly a year ago about how charitable 
Bayer has been in regard to the CCD issue:

http://bee-quick.com/reprints/serial_killer.pdf
"_There was one encouraging note. Bayer CropScience offered to provide
their standard analytical samples of metabolite chemistry, the chemicals
that result from plants metabolizing Imradaclopid. This systemic 
pesticide, made by Bayer, has been mentioned as a suspect often. 
Bayer seems conﬁdent enough that CCD is not caused by their products 
to provide the rope that could be used to hang them." 
_
Now, you can bluster all you want about how cooperating with the CCD
investigation is "good PR" for Bayer, or you can get all paranoid about 
how they might somehow be subverting the process, but the only tangible
evidence we have here is that they handed over valuable and highly
proprietary chemistry for free and sent their best toxicology people to the
"working group" meetings, and did all this well before there was any
significant evidence tending to support claims that their products are not
the cause of CCD.

I think they showed an amazing level of openness.

It is easy to demonize the pesticide companies, as they are such easy
targets, and people are predisposed to hate them. But when you look
at the actual chemistry, you find that "systemics" in general, and
seed-treatment systemics in specific are perhaps the best thing that ever
happened to beekeeping, as a pesticide that is not sprayed is a potential pesticde kill avoided.

And if you haven't lost at least 100 colonies to pesticide kills, you really
do not have a legitimate "seat at the table" on this issue, as you haven't
paid your dues. There are lots of areas where smaller operations and
hobbyists have exactly the same conditions as larger operations, but
pesticide kills are rare for non-pollinating operations.


----------



## Barry Digman

Good heavens. It's an industry. There's a money trail. There's nothing mysterious or evil or surprising about it. It's the way we do things in this country. Sheesh. 


Back to the original thread, which had to do with reports of continuing losses in the almonds this year. The article said that it was the biggest hit yet. My question is whether there are corroborating reports to that effect? The other current thread seems to indicate that there *are* significant losses, but no one has definitely diagnosed them as CCD losses. 

It would be nice to be able to hear reliable updates from the folks on the ground in California or those in direct contact with them.


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## MapMan

I hope that you received permission from them to broadcast their email addresses, Jim-

MM


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## Jim Fischer

> I hope that you received permission from them to broadcast 
> their email addresses

I wouldn't call BeeSource "broadcasting"... only a few hundred who read and post here.


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## peggjam

David Hackenburg reported to 60 Minitues that he lost 50% of his hives this year to CCD.


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## Ravenseye

Barry's post calling for facts is important here. The nature of Beesource is communicative. We have practice of mixing fact with rumor or conjecture. However, nearly everyone here has a vested interest in the issue no matter what their size or where they're located. It think it was a fairly recent Bee Culture article that dispensed with distinguishing between "hobby", "sideliner" and "professional" beekeepers. We're all beekeepers and we all care. I personally would love more actual data...at least incidents where CCD is suspected and being investigated. 

Finally, Jim Fischer makes a great point regarding corporate involvement. Unfortunately, big corporations often make big targets and not good targets. I want to be careful about painting any entity with too broad a brush, but I'm getting old enough to recognize that reality is not always easily seen or measured.


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## florida pollinator

My sources,whom have been at the "dead zone" of what is estimated above 10,000 + dead hives tell me I should keep a watch on the CBS evening news possibly thursday for a 
report.
It 's not just one outfit,there's some other large (6000 to 15000) hive outfits with thousands dead at the last minute.It's a whole different group of beekeepers having trouble than those of us which had 70 to 80% loss last winter.
It sounds like something from Alfred Hitchcock or a honey bee terrorist attack,but it seems to be more than an almond bloom scare tactic,as some have said.


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## Angi_H

What I am wanting to know is how do you know it was actually CCD. As I was watching a story about a month ago on the Killer Bees and the CAPE Bee. The cape bee is moving up from south america right behind the Killer Bees. The CAPE bee moves into hives and does just that Moves in and cleans house , eats the stores and leaves. Leaving behind a empty hive with little to no evidence of anything happening but a few dead bees. All this talk on CCD and I have not her one mention to the cape bees. Yet they are here. That special was out of arizona. I would be more suspect of the cape bee then ccd with nothing but a few dead bees and empty hives. Sounds all to commin to me. Same evidence of what the cape bees do when they move in they kill and discard the dead bees. Eats then leaves. Sounds al to the same? And also how do you not know if these large guys are actually taking good care of there bees. They have so many how can they possabily be able to take care of all of them. Swarm calls have went up and I am even getting them in Feb now. Sounds like they are not being cared for. Almonds just now bairly started to bloom here in Cent CA. And bees have been out for a little over 3 weeks now. I am just now seeing beek putting syrup on the hives. Yet they have been comming to my open feeders to eat the pollen and syrup I keep out for the bees. Then going back 1/4 mile to the trees down the road. It just all makes you wonder. About feeding on time the cape bees and making sure there is enough room and forage for them before they decide they need to leave before they all die. This is just my 2c and talking to a few beek I know. I also know of several local beek that still have hives for rent for almonds and yes they have ads on craigslist and fresno bee and no calls. So there is not a shortage as you all think. If there was there would not be any ads that have been up n and off since Jan.

Angi
<Who wants to know "What about the dang CAPE Bee>


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## Jim Fischer

> What I am wanting to know is how do you know it was actually CCD. 

It is important to stress that (as far as I know) no one is posting about
their own hives here. We are all repeating what we have been told by
those who own the hives in question, and/or those who are working for 
or with those who own the hives in question.

I am going to trust my sources, and say that anyone who runs thousands
of hives is not going to confuse "starvation" with "CCD". Yes, the weather
has been lousy, yes, the bloom is very late, yes some hives may have
starved while waiting for decent flying weather that never came.
But not all of them, as some showed CCD symptoms as they were being
fed. The process of feeding and checking hives is what revealed the
start of the CCD symptoms, which were then observed to spread.

> As I was watching a story about a month ago on the Killer Bees and the
> CAPE Bee. The cape bee is moving up from south america right behind 
> the Killer Bees. 

What program was this? I've never heard of any Cape Bees being in
South American. South AFRICA, yes. South America? I hope not.


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## peggjam

"All this talk on CCD and I have not her one mention to the cape bees."

There are no cape bees in the US that I am aware of. It is illegal to bring them in, as they would completely wipe out our European hbs.


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## dthompson

Angi there are 4 people (at least) on this BBS
that have 'come out of the closet'
Myself, simplyhoney, lspender, socal
If you read their posts you will know 
a bit more
Symptoms? The end is an empty hive
Previous is reluctance to take feed
What happens to the dead out boxes
is confirmation
All past year I've been chasing earlier
symptoms with the hope of finding
some palletive treatment (read on beel)

dave


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## LSPender

The challange is finding what the symtoms are and the trigger that begins the down fall.

It has been mentioned on another thread to MONITOR hive by testing ie spore counts for nosema & v-mite rolls. This still brings up a challenge as I found last Thurs. eve Feb 21st from one of the researchers working with Hackengerg & Mendes, of 12 large operation that had losses none of them test positive for nosema.. CCD is real and worst, it is still inknown.

I personally am learning to test more and I will be as of this month. But I still am asking what if anything has been found as a trigger to start colapse.

Side note: How do you test / observe and hive collapsing in the FALL time when they are naturally becoming smaller for winter?

ALso, I will be fumigating ALL my equipment next week with methol bromide with the goal of creating a starting p[oint of clean boxes.

I will be posting costs & observed results as we go.

Larry


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## Monie

I know this sounds dumb, and it may have been done....has anyone gathered the dead bees from affected hives and blended them into a slurry to test for toxins? 

Yeah, I saw something similar on tv.


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## MichaelW

Lspender,
How do you know methol bromide won't be absorbed by the wax and kill the bees when you put them in? Have beekeepers done this before? I don't know anything about this chemical, just asking.

Also, maybe leave some without the treatment to have a comparison of effects. You won't know if the treatment worked positive or negative without a control or 'check' group.


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## Joel

My hats off to Pender, simply honey, so cal and Dave Thompson for having the guts to come forward and give CCD a face and a voice, something that has been sorely lacking. Even more importantly we can see that the faces are people we know here. Perhaps we can begin a productive conversation which will open the door for others who truly have suffered from CCD to speak up and get some facts.


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## Barry

LSPender said:


> I will be fumigating ALL my equipment next week with methol bromide


http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/mbr/


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## soupcan

*Ccd*

Spoke with quite a few beeks thad had no problems last year & now what a mess.
Some of these people have not gone to almonds for 3 years & just stay in Texas.
Bee brokers are telling me that they have not had any growers call for bees yet but at least 5 beeks a day are calling looking for replacement hives due to all that have been placed & now they are empty of bees.
I asked as to why no grower calls & every one thought that inspections were to start looking this week & that may be the trigger.
Beekeepers may have thought they could still find replacements yet this late.
One of our neighbors is shipping another load out of Texas as I write this.
This load & the last load he sent would have never made last years grading standards.
Yet my understanding that over 50 thousand more acres are to be planted to new trees this spring with some judge controling river water due to fear of a little fish will never being able to survive.
Then tack on this bee problem.
It's nuts!
Is a 150K of colonies short for almonds to strong a statement.
Let me rephrase that to say that I know of 150K in dead outs already.
Sound high?
Not really.
So if one outfit is down over 30K in count, another 3 down an average of 11K each.
I know of 5 more that are down 4k to 7k each.
Does not take long to add up.
This is just in our small world, the people we talk with are not liars or BS'ers.
As one bee broker told me it's kinda like getting a DUI or finding out you wife been out fooling around.
You are the last person that want to admit what you have found out due to simply a 
" pride issue " 
And no it can't happen to me, I am a good beekeeper, this CCD deal only affects people who don't take care of there bees, or beekeepers who have lazy help & the owner never looks at or checks his help & bees.
I am told there are bids out there for honey over $1.25 a pound.
Go figure.


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## BEES4U

*FYI: Chromatography at U.C.D.*

http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/specproj/lompoc/execsum.pdf

[PDF] [email protected] High Performance Liquid Chromatography (HPLC)File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Chromatography and Instrumentation in Organic Chemistry .... http://www.ucd.ie/cscb/main_pages/facilities/. mass_spectrometry.htm ...
www.ucd.ie/cscb/main_pages/education/pdfs/210807_Chromatography_Handout.pdf - Similar pages 

[PPT] [email protected] Format: Microsoft Powerpoint - View as HTML
Derived from the Greek word Chroma meaning colour, chromatography provides a ... Chromatography is widely used by forensic teams to analyse blood and urine ...
www.ucd.ie/cscb/main_pages/education/docs/Introduction_to_Chromatography_ppt.ppt - Similar pages
More results from www.ucd.ie » 

[PDF] Executive Summary of the Multiple-Pesticide Sampling and Analysis PlanFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
(analysis by gas chromatography at UCD). Monitoring is planned for late May through early. August 2000. Pesticide (Active. Ingredient). Breakdown. product ...
www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/specproj/lompoc/execsum.pdf - Similar pages 

Filtration & Separation : Liquid chromatography: Measuring ...Liquid chromatography: Measuring molecules in breast milk ... by Agilent Technologies and a team of University of California at Davis (UCD) in the US. ...
linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S001518820770085X - Similar pages 

Journal of Chromatography A : Determination of halogenated mono ...Gas chromatography with electron-capture detection ..... Davis (UCD) Jastro Shields Fellowship, and a UCD Marine Laboratory Travel Grant to B.M.M. The ...
linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S002196739901081X - Similar pages 

[PDF] Using proteomics to identify potential therapeutic targets in ...File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
mensional chromatography. 2-DE uses isoelectric focusing ... To whom correspondence should be addressed (email [email protected]). ...
proteomics.ucd.ie/publications/11.pdf - Similar pages 

DMMC Courses & WorkshopsDr Connie Byrne, UCD abstract 1615 Practical Applications of Liquid Chromatography & Gel Based Proteomics Dr Patricia Maguire, UCD ...
www.dmmc.ie/Proteomics2006.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages 

UC Davis - Biotechnology ProgramRegister through UCD Conference & Event Services at: Not yet available for ... will cover quantitative and non-quantitative liquid chromatography (LC) based ...
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UC Davis - Biotechnology ProgramCo-Sponsored by the UCD Genome Center Proteomics Core ... The course will cover quantitative and non-quantitative liquid chromatography (LC) based ...
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COOPERATIVE EXTENSION UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA ENVIRONMENTAL ...and many of the studies needed are performed on the UCD campus. .... Analysis of trace water content by gas chromatography was conducted for the first time ...
extoxnet.orst.edu/newsletters/n123_92.htm - 20k - Cached - Similar pages 



1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 

Regards,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


----------



## Joel

Where are the reports on east coast die offs????


----------



## Angi_H

I will have to look for the show again that I watched. Ihave to see if my hubby still kept them on the tivo. As I taped them to watch. I swear and he swears we saw them saying that they were in south america brought in with bees from over seas. As they showed a big rig full of bees and the cape bee moving in. And the truck unloading tons of empty boxes to spread the cape bee as it drove. I will have to try to find this special again and re watch and try to contact the company that did it.


Angi
It just sounds all to familure me for someone not to question not having Cape Bees here in the USA. It wouldnt take much with all of the bees comming and going for it to get in here. Thats all I am saying. What they do and the sound of things sounds all to familure.


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## tecumseh

michael writes:
How do you know methol bromide won't be absorbed by the wax and kill the bees when you put them in? Have beekeepers done this before? I don't know anything about this chemical, just asking.

tecumseh replies:
methol bromide was once used for fumigating equipment to protect againist moths. it is my understanding that it was taken off the market due to health concerns (I think??? residue quickly showed up in the equipment). I would suspect that the product can still be used in emergency situtation (I think DDT and any number of real nasties can be used in the exact same manner).


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## Troy

I am an outsider to this whole business, but I have a question that is nagging at me.

How can there be a shortage of bees, and there are bees for rent in the paper out in Calif.? This does not make sense to me.

Is it that the farmers are saying there is a shortage, because they can't get bees for the price they want to pay? Or is it that those advertising in the paper are asking too much for the bees?

If the farmers are unwilling to pay, that is not a shortage, but an economic issue.

If the beeks are asking too much, again it is an economic issue.

To me there is really only a shortage if bees cannot be had at any price.


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## lake thompson honey

bwrangler writes:

CCD is not a new problem. It has been around before mites, before feedlot beekeeping and before migratory beekeeping was common. It has devastated commercial beekeepers on a widespread scale in the past. And although the size of commercial outfits are 10 times the size they were back then, a 90+% loss was as economically devastating then as now. I know because I lost 400 hives/week the same way over 30 years ago.

And the reason no one knew of a real beekeeper that had it, was anyone who had it and shared the fact was labelded as a PPM and automatically marginalized. Those that had experienced it, saw the same mystifying symptoms as those who have witnessed CCD today. And it didn't take a 'real' beekeeper to know that something very unusual was happening. Only a few researchers took the reports seriously. And, I think they were marginalized as well. Not much money in back then.





what happened after your losses back then? did it spread to other beeks? did it just go away or did it give you problems for several years?


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## BEES4U

*Troy*

The beekeepers advertising in the newpaper are tying to work directly with the almond producer and eliminated the broker.
Some beekeepers never have a contract. They fill in the gaps and usually at a high price.
Not neccessarily all the advertisers are oportunistic.
Regards,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


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## BEES4U

*Where are the reports on east coast die offs????*

I do not know at this time know of a source for the east coast die offs.
But, I did provide more information than what was here earlier and that was the purpose of posting.
Regards,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


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## SoCal

*Methyl Bromide*

Methyl bromide is a fumigant, the reason it has been so controlled is because of the ozone layer destruction. It will not "protect" against anything, as it has no residual action. It will not build up in wood, it was/had been used for decades for residential fumigation, now Vikane or other gasses are used. It will kill almost anything, dry rot,termites,grain pests, soil borne nematodes, bacteirum and a plethora of other goodies.

The only industry I know who still use it is the strawberry growers, for soil sterilization a week or so before planting. And yes, I have used it in the past on my boxes, frames and equipment with no problems. I hope this works for LSPender, what the heck, at least it will be a good starting/baseline point. I'll keep my digits crossed.


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## ratfox

*CCD affected hives*

I am researching AFB, EFB and Stonebrood (Aspergillus) and would like to have portions of CCD affected hives for further lab evaluations.

If any of you have hives that are not going to be reused - I would like to have small pieces (1 to 6 inches), labeled with your info and region, bee species and most common crop (if applicable).

You can send a PM and I can contact you to discuss this more.

Unfortunately, I can't pay for postage, but I don't need large pieces.

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Ratfox


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## Aspera

If the problem is so serious, then why hasn't there been a moratorium on hive transport? I would think that the transport of hives could desseminate infectious diseases.


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## BjornBee

Aspera said:


> If the problem is so serious, then why hasn't there been a moratorium on hive transport? I would think that the transport of hives could desseminate infectious diseases.


Whats the number one, most important factor in the bee industry? Its not honey production, its not backyard beekeepers, etc. Its the pollination of the countries food crops. Nothing will come between the movement of hives and the pollination of crops. You stop the movement of bees, and you might as well just kill off ALL the hives. Because without the movement of bees, the industry is nothing. Backyard types, and those with little self contained apiaries, I'm sure don't like to hear that. 

You don't shoot off your foot because you big toe is hurting.

There is no way, regardless of how bad it gets, to keep enough bees within the immediate vicinity of the major food crops that need pollination. 

Who do you think is going to make the first demands for stopping the movement of bees?


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## drobbins

>>then why hasn't there been a moratorium on hive transport?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I assume that's a rhetorical question

Dave


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## Barry Digman

Aspera said:


> If the problem is so serious, then why hasn't there been a moratorium on hive transport? I would think that the transport of hives could desseminate infectious diseases.


What Dave sez. Follow the money. 

Thinking out loud....
I'm not at all convinced that my food supply depends as much on commerical pollinators as folks would like us to believe. I look at the crops that are pollinated by honeybees, and think "I could live without that since I don't eat it anyway." In fact, if I never ate another almond in my life I doubt I'd die, yet that particular part of the industry seems to pretty much dictate by itself the management practices for most of the beekeeping in the US. 

If we took the 800-lb gorilla that is almond pollination out of the equation, what would be the state of beekeeping today?


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## Jim Fischer

> If we took the 800-lb gorilla that is almond pollination out of the 
> equation, what would be the state of beekeeping today?

There are lots of crops that will still need pollination, and lots of
migratory hives required.

There was a time, not long ago when almonds were not such a big 
deal in the grand scheme of things, and other crops dominated.

But as I said before, Almonds have done to beekeeping what cocaine 
did to Miami. 
http://bee-quick.com/reprints/udunno.pdf


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## Trevor Mansell

Jim Fischer said:


> >
> But as I said before, Almonds have done to beekeeping what cocaine
> did to Miami.
> http://bee-quick.com/reprints/udunno.pdf


 Built it into one of the greatest cities on the east coast? If it wasnt for almonds there would be alot of beekeepers out of buisness right now.


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## Aspera

Well CCD is supposed to be the influenza of honeybees, causing untold suffering to their keepers. If it truly is an infectious problem, then it crosses state lines on the back of a semi, as did varroa, tracheal mites, and SHB before CCD.


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## Barry

Barry Digman said:


> If we took the 800-lb gorilla that is almond pollination out of the equation, what would be the state of beekeeping today?


Barry, you're a brave man. I like that about you.


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## Barry

Trevor Mansell said:


> If it wasnt for almonds there would be alot of beekeepers out of buisness right now.


A lot? I'll guess percentage wise, it would be a relatively small number of beekeepers. Granted, they are the ones with the largest percentage of hives.


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## Trevor Mansell

Aspera said:


> Well CCD is supposed to be the influenza of honeybees, causing untold suffering to their keepers. If it truly is an infectious problem, then it crosses state lines on the back of a semi, as did varroa, tracheal mites, and SHB before CCD.


So you are saying bees wont cross state lines on there own? Semis might spread it quicker but it will still spread.


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## France

*Re: Video*

Something some may perhaps find interesting ? Will not comment since everything id self explanatory even the ban in France for which I took some flack... and at the time could not adequetly substantiate ?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_XnvZAcM0U


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## MichaelW

Barry Digman said:


> ... I look at the crops that are pollinated by honeybees, and think "I could live without that since I don't eat it anyway." ...


Gosh, you must have a really boring diet!

I suppose many people might say the same thing about honey, so 
who cares lets just let honey bee culture in general die out.


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## lake thompson honey

Aspera said:


> If the problem is so serious, then why hasn't there been a moratorium on hive transport? I would think that the transport of hives could desseminate infectious diseases.




thats just crazy talk. that would be the end of the bee industry in this country. much faster than ccd.


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## Barry Digman

Barry said:


> Barry, you're a brave man. I like that about you.


More curious than brave I think. It's interesting to contemplate a beekeeping industry that did not include the influence of almond pollination, and how that difference would impact how we view the issues of pests and diseases.


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## Aspera

Trevor Mansell said:


> So you are saying bees wont cross state lines on there own? Semis might spread it quicker but it will still spread.


I believe you are right, but I also believe that the speed of disease transmission is important. Also, it seems like you are saying that commercial pollination cannot exist without long haul migratory pollinators. This may not be true.


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## Trevor Mansell

Aspera said:


> I believe you are right, but I also believe that the speed of disease transmission is important. Also, it seems like you are saying that commercial pollination cannot exist without long haul migratory pollinators. This may not be true.


If we are talking about honey bees pollinating almonds in Ca. or blueberries in Maine then long haul pollinating is going to be required for the forseeable forture or until it becomes no longer profitable. There simply are not enough beekeepers in Ca. or Maine to fill the demand. There is also not enough people getting into this as a buisness ,wich by the way I am fine with.


----------

