# Frames fused together with comb



## louborges (May 16, 2009)

I'm new to beekeeping and started a few weeks ago with a new package of bees. I spent hours online reading everything about getting started with beekeeping. I watched many videos on YouTube as well about installing the package of bees. The installation went relatively well. I checked the hive after 5 days from installing the package of bees and found that the queen was released from her box. Yeah!! I waited another 5 days to check to see if the queen was doing her thing and sure enough she was there well marked and laying eggs. I was not able to see the eggs but did see some larvae in the cells. There was honey and pollen in the cells as well. Now here is my concern. When I removed the empty queen cage I was so nervous and excited that I failed to close the frames tightly together. There are two frames in the center that the bees connected with comb. I'm not sure what to do. Being a new hive with no new bees I don't think it is a good idea to try to disconnect the two frames. Maybe if it was a fully establish hive? I'm sure this will be a problem later if I need to inspect the hive for super-sedure cells. What should I do? Leave it alone for now. What should I do later if anything? I've search many web sites including this one and didn't find anyone asking about this. Do I have a problem?


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## Sarge (Jun 26, 2006)

Depending on many things this can be a very common thing. Some breeds of bees build alot of Burr comb between frames. They just like having little walkways to get around.
Some believe that how the hive is oriented to the magnetic poles will affect how bad the burr come is and which way it goes.
As long as it is just small spots along the top of the frames I leave it alone until I need to move that frame. Then I just cut it with the hive tool and move on.


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## no1cowboy (May 18, 2007)

> I failed to close the frames tightly together. There are two frames in the center that the bees connected with comb. I'm not sure what to do.


scrape the burr comb off and push the frames togeather.


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## louborges (May 16, 2009)

I should have looked more closely to see how much comb was built between the frames. I have never handled bees before so I'm being very careful. I don’t want to interfere with the next generation of bees. Does the queen lay eggs in the comb between the frames? Do they store honey or is it just a bridge?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Most of my hives look like this:


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

How big of a gap did you leave?

Are they building burr comb, or are they building an actual comb that hangs between the two frames?

If it is burr comb like in odfrank's pic, just ignore it. You can scrape it off, but they will build it back - you will be wasting your time if you scrape it.

If it is a big comb, cut it out - it will only get worse over time.


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## twobees (May 16, 2009)

*That's my question, too*

Thanks for the lead in - this is exactly what I've been trying to resolve. I have several abandoned hives on my property & a swarm showed up last week. Never having worked with bees I fetched an empty hive & scraped all the gunk off everything (yuck), donned my heaviest winter clothes & put the bees in the box. They left 2 days later. Another swarm, same box, they left 2 days later. By now I've gathered up several of the empty hives, cleaned them & spent hours & hours on the infonet. The foundations are caked with who knows what, torn & missing, the hive edges are raggedy with rot. I'm busy repairing the hives & a LOT of bees take over the pile of hive parts; especially the hives with the caked frames (burr comb?). I put it back together to look like a hive (2 deeps) & take it to the sunny new home. That's as far as I've got - now what? I can't inspect the frames - everything's all stuck together with large clumps of gunk. Any advice is welcome. Thanks


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

louborges: Without knowing or seeing just how much comb has been built between the two frames, it's difficult to recommend a good solution. *[I'm not sure if odfrank's photo represents the problem]. You may have to seperate the two frames and put them on the outside of all the rest,..temporarily,. and get some new frames with foundation in there soon. *[If,.."they are building an actual comb that hangs between the two frames"--Countryboy]. Push the remaining frames tight together in the center. Don't worry too much about the 'next generation of bees' that may be starting in these frames at this point; it's still early. *Once you get this irregular comb in a hive, it's difficult to deal with. *Yes, the queen may have laid eggs and nectar may now be stored there. Since this is a new hive you are probably building frames for your second box. I know you may not have extra frames or foundation because they usually come in packs of ten-twenty [even number]. If that's the case you could "fix" those two frames by only using starter strips in them. Good luck.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

In my experience, if you have comb that essentially becomes part of two adjoining frames, it's hard to clean it up without messing up everything. I typically break the "bridge" between them and if there's brood, I move the two frames to the ends (so long as the weather is warm enough so that they can deal with the brood) and when the brood emerges, I replace the frames with new foundation. Once comb gets weird it tends to stay like that.


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## louborges (May 16, 2009)

http://cid-5d5d390cfb930583.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Bees/SS850642.JPG

I have some pictures of my hive. I don't think this is burr comb. I hope this link works.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

twobees: "Never having worked with bees". ---"I can't inspect the frames - everything's all stuck together with large clumps of gunk. Any advice is welcome".

Any advice?? --*read,..ask Beesource,..talk to an experienced beekeeper,.etc.* I have never dealt with something like this but I would get some new honey supers ready with new frames and foundation. Put them on top of the hives; 2-3 boxes and see if they put honey in them. Harvest what honey you think you can later in the summer. Read about overwintering bee hives and prepare them for winter*. Next spring, [*if they survive]get them into new equipment.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Nice photo*

You will need to remove one of the outside frames, push the frames over with your hive tool, remove the natural comb,use you hive tool to push the frames against each other, replace the frame that you took out and let the bees draw out the combs.
If, you don't remove the natural comb they will fill in the gap to the floor of the hive.
Ernie


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## twobees (May 16, 2009)

*Onward*

Thanks for all the answers - I hope I didn't butt in. This is exactly what I needed to know & the pictures are a great help. Now I know what "normal" looks like. If I get honey this year, OK; I'm really only interested in keeping the bees alive & on the property. Meanwhile, I'll be doing the resource work to continue my education - just needed to get past this unexpected situation. I have discovered that I like bees & am looking forward to my new hobby. Thanks again!


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

*joining the burr comb foray*

My problem too - left too much room between frames because worried about hurting the bees. suggestion is that I butter knife out comb a frame or two at a time and let the bees clean up the mess, BUT all you experienced bee'rs say just slide the combs tight together - aren't there bees running all over the frames of the combs? How do you avoid crushing bees between comb frames? And how in the world does odfrank pull combs out of a 10 frame box without injury?

Apologize if I threaded incorrectly - I'm new to forums as well as beekeeping.



Countryboy said:


> How big of a gap did you leave?
> 
> Are they building burr comb, or are they building an actual comb that hangs between the two frames?
> 
> ...





odfrank said:


> Most of my hives look like this:





no1cowboy said:


> scrape the burr comb off and push the frames togeather.


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## louborges (May 16, 2009)

Okay, I need to do something but O'm concerned about doing this to a hive that just started? and not hurting the queen. What if I just swap these two frames with the two end ones? Would this buy me some time to remove the extra comb when the hive has new workers?


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Your pic helped a lot. That comb will be easy to fix. Pull the frames, scrape and move to the outside. Yes, be careful about the queen but that comb is usually soft and easy to scrape so you won't have to be at it long.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

A good learning experience, this usually won't be the last time you will need to do this. Use your hive tool to gently push the frames on either side of the offending pair of frames (with their wild comb being built between them), away about one-eighth of an inch (enough to ensure they aren't fastened together with propolis) then gently lift the affected pair of frames. With them removed from the hive but resting on the tops of the other frames, you can puff a little smoke and most of the bees will vacate these frames and run down into the hive (this will make it easier to avoid injuring bees once the surgery begins).

Set them down where it is stable and they won't be able to fall over, such as propped up, at an angle, against the side of a hive. Do this in the shade, or where you and the bees won't get overheated. I find that a sharp serrated steak knife works well. I then carefully cut out the offending pieces of comb, then the frames can be placed back into the hive and all is well.


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## louborges (May 16, 2009)

Thanks, This is great information. I hope to attemp this tomorrow with a friend. How much time do I have? The bees were installed 1 1/2 weeks ago.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

You have time but, as they continue to build comb, fixing it will just take a little more effort. Do it at your earliest, comfortable opportunity.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

You will probably see this type of comb again over the years. I just requeened 6 hives and removed the wooded cages today. When you put the wooden cages between two frames you usually can't get them pushed back close enough. So the bees build extra comb there.

Today I found that type of comb between the frames where the cages were. It is nice and soft, so it is very easy to remove. Just pull the frames apart and pull the comb out with your hive tool. Smoke the bees off if you want. Then push the frames together.


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## Bluidshay (Apr 29, 2009)

I also am a new beekeeper, and I've had to clear this type of comb twice. The second time they built a "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" sculpture for me on Mother's Day rising out of the hole in the middle of the inner cover. I think it was a superhighway to the feed jar. I have a "bee friend" who I met in bee school and she and I have been trying to observe each other's hives for more experience. She's got a LOT more burr comb than I have, we've both noticed. Just slow and steady shaving it off. I feel terrible doing it, they obviously worked so hard at it, but I understand it could cause problems if they store in it, or worse, lay brood in it.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

hoodswoods said:


> And how in the world does odfrank pull combs out of a 10 frame box without injury?


My problem is caused because the bees are in an area where there is some kind of flow almost year round. I have almost given up scrapping, it just gets replaced, and I stay out of brood chambers if I can. Since half of my bees have been dieing the last few years, I deal with more dead brood chambers than live ones. I have also switched to bait hives for increase rather than divides. Why pay $25. for a queen who is dead in a few months? Those braced up combs make dandy bait combs.


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## reneal (Sep 6, 2006)

I agree with Odfrank"s approach. This comb is only messed up from the beekeeper's point of view. Its the bees home, if they like it that way, should I really tear out their work? That said, I do try to set things up so that I do get nice straight combs. If I find really odd looking combs, I try to isolate them to one side of the box with a nice straight comb so that any new combs that are built will be straight. I also do cutouts & some of these result in really wavy comb. This stuff gets cycled out of the hives as they go empty of brood. It does work well in trap hives, or in boxes for hiving swarms if I run out of straight comb.


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## Ardilla (Jul 17, 2006)

louborges said:


> Okay, I need to do something but O'm concerned about doing this to a hive that just started? and not hurting the queen. What if I just swap these two frames with the two end ones? Would this buy me some time to remove the extra comb when the hive has new workers?


I would clean that up before it gets worse. 

Also, I sent you a PM about our local beekeepers club.


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## louborges (May 16, 2009)

I did it! :scratch: I opened the hive and pulled the two end frames out. There was no comb on these end ones just bees. I slowly pushed the frames apart while giving them puffs of smoke. They were very calm. There were three frames stuck together in the center. I pulled them apart slowly. Everything was very sticky. Honey started running down the comb all over the bees. There were not aggressive to my surprise. I used my tool to scrap off the extra comb, not knowing what to do with it. It was covered with bees. I laid the pieces down on the ground while I continued to scrap away. What a horrible job!!  Sticky syrup covered bees. Some pieces of comb fell to to bottom and I left it there. I'm not sure I scraped back everything just the big pieces. I put back the frames and squeezed them back together knowing bees were being squeezed together by the two frames. Again what a horrible task  . I was concerned about harming the queen but continued. The frames all went back together nice and tight. I was still concerned about the queen and after catching my nerve I went back and started to remove each frame carefully and there she was on the third frame form the side. Thank god she was okay, Wish I could say the same for the many others syrup entombed bees. Now the big question, will they clean everything and make things nice and neat or will they reconnect it? If they do I'm not going to do it again. They could have one big home undisturbed from any future inspections. I'll just observe them from the loose frame and the supers I'll install later. I'm not sure I did the right thing. Also I wish that all the books I read would tell why its so important to keep the frames tight together. They should say if you don't be ready to do surgery on your hive if you want to remove the frames. I would have gotten the message loud and clear. 

Thanks everyone for your help and I hope I did the right thing. When should I check to see if things worked out? One or two weeks (one or two years) I'll let you all know how things worked out. Thanks again.

Lou


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

If you removed enough of the oddly formed comb they have a better chance of getting it right the next time, but otherwise they are more likely, with some variation, to repeat the same issue. Depending on how badly deformed the base comb is, sometimes it is best just to remove the really bad ones and replace them with a new foundationless or foundation frame. From your description it sounds like you may have left enough odd-comb to possibly cause the combs in question to again be fused together, hopefully not. But don't worry, a little of this happens more often than the books ever mention.


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## ITCHI (Apr 13, 2009)

I have heard that these between frames burr comb are likely to be used to lay drone larvae, is that the case and if so what caveats does this present?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

ITCHI said:


> I have heard that these between frames burr comb are likely to be used to lay drone larvae, is that the case and if so what caveats does this present?


Generally where the between-frames drone comb is built is between the bottom bar and the top bars of the frames below, rather than in the space between the surfaces of two adjacent combs. Though drone comb can be built almost anywhere there is enough room for it.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I agree with Mr. Clemens. Most of the "extra" drone comb is built between boxes but I've seen it in towers going up to hivetop feeders as well as between frames that are crooked and out of position. No caveats in particular. If you're concerned about removing drone comb, don't be. The bees decide such things and will accommodate.


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## ITCHI (Apr 13, 2009)

And what is the reason for not wanting drone comb or birth?
Please excuse my ignorance.


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

louborges said:


> I did it! I opened the hive and pulled the two end frames out. There was no comb on these end ones just bees. I slowly pushed the frames apart while giving them puffs of smoke. They were very calm. There were three frames stuck together in the center. I pulled them apart slowly. Everything was very sticky. Honey started running down the comb all over the bees. There were not aggressive to my surprise. I used my tool to scrap off the extra comb, not knowing what to do with it. It was covered with bees. I laid the pieces down on the ground while I continued to scrap away. What a horrible job!!  Sticky syrup covered bees. Some pieces of comb fell to to bottom and I left it there. I'm not sure I scraped back everything just the big pieces. I put back the frames and squeezed them back together knowing bees were being squeezed together by the two frames. Again what a horrible task. I was concerned about harming the queen but continued. The frames all went back together nice and tight. I was still concerned about the queen and after catching my nerve I went back and started to remove each frame carefully and there she was on the third frame form the side. Thank god she was okay, Wish I could say the same for the many others syrup entombed bees. Now the big question, will they clean everything and make things nice and neat or will they reconnect it? If they do I'm not going to do it again. They could have one big home undisturbed from any future inspections. I'll just observe them from the loose frame and the supers I'll install later. I'm not sure I did the right thing. Also I wish that all the books I read would tell why its so important to keep the frames tight together. They should say if you don't be ready to do surgery on your hive if you want to remove the frames. I would have gotten the message loud and clear.
> 
> Thanks everyone for your help and I hope I did the right thing. When should I check to see if things worked out? One or two weeks (one or two years) I'll let you all know how things worked out. Thanks again.
> 
> Lou


 is right - I think that all the old beezers don't let us know about their first-time decapitation of burr comb brought on by ignorance of keeping combs together - it wasn't a pleasant experiance for me this afternoon.

Unfornately, I never located the queen (does needle in the haystack sound familiar?) All I know is there a lots of bees, making dark comb & light comb filled with honey:doh: And there is a lot of comming & going - a few fights and not real great development of the newly introduced frames. I did not notice any supercedure cells or anything wierd - other than the comb.

Box feeders are not the way to go - too much comb buildup above the hive. After they settle down, I'm putting on a new (fully plastic-comb loaded) brood box, shuffle the frames every so often and see what happens.

I've been doing this a month, bees for a little longer - I figure they can work it out (with a little help in the meds department)


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