# "Change of Days" queens



## Dubhe (Jul 19, 2007)

I'm just getting around to the April issue of Bee Culture & I'm intrigued by the article on out-breeding mites.

The author suggests that queens mated after the June Solstice (when day light begins to get shorter) continue to make brood at an accelerated pace whereas those mated prior begin to shut down.

Is this true?


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## Dubhe (Jul 19, 2007)

awfully quiet in here.................
Dumb question?


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I haven't seen that and I have done some fall queens, though not a lot.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Young queens out perform older queens.
The strongest motivation for a hive is late floral sources and or stimulative feeding.

Regards,
Ernie Lucas Apiaries.


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## BeeAware (Mar 24, 2007)

I think it is true. I re-queen all my colonies in August, never in spring. By the time spring queens are available, we're in the early flow around here and it is a disruption to the colony to re-queen at that time. With late summer re-queening, I have not had problems with build-up for overwintering, except I sometimes have to feed them in the fall due to the large population and scarce sources.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>awfully quiet in here.................

My guess is that many of us have no opinion on the subject. Personally, I have never made any specific observations in that regard. It's an interesting concept and I will try to pay more attention and see what I think.


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## Dubhe (Jul 19, 2007)

Thanks everyone


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## peletier (May 5, 2007)

Climate is a huge factor in issues like this. In cold areas with early fall and late spring, a large population to over-winter would not be desirable. Here in North Carolina fall re-queening would seem to be ideal. 

We have a very mild, short winter, and an early spring. Our bees fly on most days year round and there is almost always something blooming. This year I will re-queen (our own queens) after our last extraction...probably September.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Dubhe said:


> I'm just getting around to the April issue of Bee Culture & I'm intrigued by the article on out-breeding mites.
> 
> The author suggests that queens mated after the June Solstice (when day light begins to get shorter) continue to make brood at an accelerated pace whereas those mated prior begin to shut down.
> 
> Is this true?


I think that ANY new queen, will out produce a queen already influenced by changing environment and that has gone through a cycling of the brood. I think that the brood-less period in requeening, the complete lack of brood pheromones being produced for a period of time, and other factors play key roles in such observations. I do not attribute this solely to the solstice. 

I think the writer keyed in on one small connecting issue, as yes the solstice is recognized by the bees and has impact, but this bee behavior could be seen with similar consequences regardless of the time of year, when comparing seasoned hives with established queen, as compared to new splits or newly installed queens.

Of course this writer (if I remember correctly), dismisses the fact that with requeening, brood cycle breaks impact mite numbers. (He also dismisses any impact of mite control through genetic selection.) He appears to solely claim that it was the time factor alone of the season without any regards to other impacting mechanisms. 

The bees themselves dictate much of what goes on within the hive as they feed and somewhat control the queen. It is just not the queen that dictates many decisions. And if the bees are the same in the hive before and after the requeening, I would think that other factors other than the solstice alone, are at play. 

I think that the idea of summer splits is worth merit. I just think he spun his own (perhaps narrow-minded) limited view on the matter, and missed the bigger or equal impacting issues that also come into play.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Interesting could be an explanation to a split I made in mid June last year turning out so well. 
I did the split for swarm control but the split did so well I never re-combined them with the parent colony. I even got a surplus of honey by late August, the hive survived the winter in robust shape and is about ready for a surplus super.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

I had the same question when I read the article. My best hive this year is a hive I started with a Bjorn Queen last july. Just booming. I am using it for my finishing colony this year.

If you look at the chart in that article you can see how the new Q keeps producing brood and that way stays ahead of the mite cycle. I think there is a lot to be said for starting your nucs in June or July for overwintering and intend to try it this year.

That said, I am also trying to boost the genetics with an VSH breeder Q too. Just not sure what the solstice has to do with it. Yes the Solstice is about June 21st. So there is a relationship. But if you start a new Q laying on June 15th I am thinking the result would still be the same.


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## danno1800 (Mar 13, 2004)

*my best producers this year*

My best producers this year were last year's queens produced after the Change of Days in Canada. They are Buckfast from Bill Ferguson. I got them in mid-July & they are booming, loaded with honey & brood this Spring. -Danno


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

I have never made any specific observations in that regard . . .

Hmmm . . . a question about bees, and MrBEE doesnt have/know the answer?

That has to be a FIRST


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>That has to be a FIRST

Not even close.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

I wrote a short piece on this for Bee Culture a couple of years ago. There are other advantages besides having a vigorous young queen brooding up your winter cluster. Later produced queens have the advantage of ample drones and supreme summer mating conditions. Breaking the brood cycle late in the season can help set the mites back; especially if requeening is accompanied by another mite control tactic. Book your summer queens now before supply tightens.


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

I have had limited experience w/ summer splits. Basically because I lost them to SHB. I did make the mistake of putting them in a 10 frame. If I do it agian I will move to a 5 frame first. Also it would require alot of feeding here because we have very little fall flow.

I was confused by some of the wording of the article--- he referred to his nucs as 8 frames? Or did I miss something here? I do not believe a split, in the summer, straight to an eight frame w/ only 2 frames of brood would make it here in the South because of SHB!!!


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

I'm also intrigued by this idea (yeah, rereading the journals this winter), but our problem is that we haven't had any fall flow in 2 years. July 1 seems to be the shut-down. And doing splits after that (or hiving a swarm) requires heavy and hard feeding to prep for winter.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

As they say in Vermont, "Hard tellin' not knowin.'" Almost all my queens are raised after the equinox. So, I can't say. I can say, that after the equinox is the main honey flow around here, so go figure.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I have 6 hives here, 4 of which were August queens (Laying in first of August) and they are doing the best of all my hives now midway thru December.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

I've heard that a queen is only good for 2 strong flows.

Many of my hives supersede (lazy mans way of requeening) during the summer dearth,after the equinox,and still produce w/no treatments


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

*Outbreeding Mites Revisited*

I, too, am rereading these articles during insomnia. What I noticed in the wee hours of the morning today is that the process of "outbreeding mites" by the method given really seems to favor short-term queen fecundity. I was reading an old manuscript today as well that mentioned that queens work best in their second spring. However, this fella is recommending replacing queens at an extremely fast rate. From some of his articles, he's not expecting his queens/ hives to survive past 6 months from varroa pressure. He's replaces them about this often.

this makes me wonder why call it "outbreeding"? In the articles that I read, he isn't selecting for queen/hive edurance, and by replacing his elderly 6 month old queens with queen cells to break the varroa's life cycle, he's removing selective pressure For endurance. It appears to me that he's successful in "outproducing mites" not "outbreeding mites" and, while there is profit for him in that, what's the long-term result? I suspect bees that are even further from the 5-6 year tolerance of Yore and putting himself on a trend much like giving a vehicle Ether to "solve" its cranking problems. (Ether Baby, anyone?)

Now he may be doing more than I've read in those 4 articles. And I'd like to understand better than I do.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Interesting point, what you reading? 

Around here we make a lot of late splits; some fed, some on flows. The old queens are only "selected out" if colony performance declines, otherwise if they are phenomenal they could be around for a few years; especially in the case of a breeder queen.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

This was a series of articles from MDA Splitter website.


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## J'smob (Feb 21, 2008)

The actual URL is www.mdasplitter.com/index.htm
Enjoy!


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

wayacoyote said:


> I'm also intrigued by this idea (yeah, rereading the journals this winter), but our problem is that we haven't had any fall flow in 2 years. July 1 seems to be the shut-down. And doing splits after that (or hiving a swarm) requires heavy and hard feeding to prep for winter.


That's what I'm thinking also. The big nectar flow down here is Tulip Poplar, around mid April. The hives need to be strong to get the nectar during this time, and after that it's small flows. Everything stops flowing around July 30th. So around here, keeping involves build up for the April flow, then you have June and July to split or requeen. But you need to do it quick so the bees can get enough stores.

I don't see any way you can split the hive four ways in march and still get good honey in April, or split four ways in June and have each one make it through the winter without feeding like crazy.

But, I havn't done it personally, so who knows.


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