# Drone cells in the Treatment Free world



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I am not TF but here is a general take on drones. A couple dozen drone cells on your top bar frames is fine. In fact, almost all your brood frames will have a patch. An entire comb made of nothing but drone cells is a little more disconcerting, but still perfectly normal in the Springtime and should be considered a sign of a healthy hive. Of course, healthy hives tend to swarm, so excessive drone comb is a good indicator of potential.


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## tpope (Mar 1, 2015)

I love them and encourage my best to build them. I want as much influence over the local genetics as I can leverage. I want my neighbor's queens bred to my drones.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

tpope said:


> I love them and encourage my best to build them. I want as much influence over the local genetics as I can leverage. I want my neighbor's queens bred to my drones.


:thumbsup: +100


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Hmmm, I like my black drones and darker bees. Maybe I should rethink my plans for next spring and allow the bees a head start on drone production by not removing those predominantly drone comb frames?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i would be less concerned about color and more interested in other traits, and perhaps it's these dark ones that have other traits you like jwp, but yes the drone side of the genetic equation in my opinion is as much if not more important the the queen side.

an easy way to get a solid frame of drone comb is to place a foundationless frame at the edge of the broodnest once the build up coming out of winter is underway. i have one or two in all my hives.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

squarepeg said:


> ...an easy way to get a solid frame of drone comb is to place a foundationless frame at the edge of the broodnest once the build up coming out of winter is underway. i have one or two in all my hives.


I can attest to that SP. Went foundationless this year and that is exaclty what happened when I tried Matt Davies' OTSB. Drone comb galore, solid frames. They went back to worker brood comb shortly afterwards. 

This will be my first year to start selecting for desired traits. Last two have been build up. Only two queen lines so figured the selection was not that crucial. After multiple open matings of sucessive generations, I would like to get picky and see if I can get calm, honey producers that are frugal in winter. Good mite tolerance wouldn't hurt either. I have one hive that two years running has left the super full of capped syrup. Just the one hive though. All the others plow through the stores in March.

Getting back to the OP, TF or not, we do not cull drone brood as means of mite contol. Pretty ineffective in the grand scheme of things and doesn't exactly flood the DCA's with the genetics we want to perpetuate.


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## NoWIBeek (May 27, 2019)

OK, good to know everyone.

At a winter club meeting a couple of folks piped up about having drone cells in their frames. One of them was adamant that he wanted no drones. No one else threw in their two cents worth so I went away from that meeting thinking drones are bad. I better watch for drone cells. After further reading I couldn't fathom why they were so anti drone. Now I am very much in the "Bees know what they are doing" camp. Especially if all other factors seem to be healthy.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

squarepeg said:


> :thumbsup: +100


+1000.

In fact, I have saved up drone combs from last year partly for this exact reason.
This year I mean to specifically insert those drone combs with my best breeding queens so to generated as much of my own drone presence as possible.
Not worried of the drones being the mite feeding stations either - these particular lines so far have not shown any mite concerns.
I want those drones en mass and I want them flying.

BTW, I will actually harvest drone brood from the least desirable colonies. Like, for food.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

GregV said:


> +1000.


+10000

I have a 5 cm free space under the bottom box where all hives can make as much drones as they want. Plus I put in special drone frame (dark, saved from previous years) in the middle of brood nest in my insemination drone rearing hives. Queens usually lay it full right away.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

NoWIBeek said:


> OK, good to know everyone.
> 
> At a winter club meeting a couple of folks piped up about having drone cells in their frames. One of them was adamant that he wanted no drones. No one else threw in their two cents worth so I went away from that meeting thinking drones are bad. I better watch for drone cells. After further reading I couldn't fathom why they were so anti drone. Now I am very much in the "Bees know what they are doing" camp. Especially if all other factors seem to be healthy.


WiBeek, the old way of thinking was since I order my queen from breeders I do not need drones. And the drones need to be fed, they fly out looking for a Queen to mate. come back "fuel up" do it over, sortie after sortie, the fuel is nectar, so the drones are thought to cause less honey harvest. But in the grand scheme of things, better genetics can easily over come a pound or 2 of honey if the survival rate from over winter for instance is higher. I use to cull if a comb had lots of drone cells, now I do not worry much. Lots for me is 25 to 30 percent. if a comb is half drone it can be a honey extract comb or a decoy hive comb. To me pure worker bees is an out of balance system. Also consider that some hives contribute drones and some contribute Queens, which do you prefer? The queen in this case could be swarm queens too. A few here and there is not much to worry about, you can always move them in to honey supers.
also keep in mind queens are often superseded, so you may have a queen replacement and not even know it.
GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

NoWIBeek said:


> I am wondering what the TF keepers practice is when it comes to drone cell building. Let em bee, cut em out, limit them, etc.


NoWIBeek:

Good thread- I've enjoyed the wisdom shared here. FWIW, I am with you in the 'bees know what they are doing' camp, and have been thoroughly impressed with the results of my trials concerning a move to foundationless.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

NoWIBeek said:


> my colony has created between two and three dozen drone cells on two bars (HTBH) out of a total of about ten full size combs and maybe six more combs in various stages of completeness.


That is a remarkablty small amount of drone cells.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Someone at a conference I went to described drone cells as the bee-equivalent of a shiny, new fancy pick-up in the garage. Not something a colony that's just getting by will invest in, but something that they will make when they are vigorous and replete with resources. So I see them as confirmation that my hives are doing quite well. In the spring I use partial foundation frames (OSBN) as an anti-swarm tactic and the bees will draw fat drone cells sections on either side of the foundation. This keeps most of my drone cells from being stuck between boxes. 

Nancy


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Drone propagation with the intent of supplying superior genetics to the surrounding community is an admirable goal. But don’t overlook the fact that varroa are strongly drawn to drone brood and reproduce much more successfully there. 
Years ago one of the pioneers of tf beekeeping, Dee Lusby recommended culling brood frames with excessive drone cells. In my opinion, one of her more rational ideas. I no longer remember the exact percentage but I believe it was either 10 or 20%.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The bees know what they are doing alright; reproducing! That is the instinct that supports their existence. Their instincts though may be counterproductive to our purposes which generally is production of honey and pollination. The latter is the biggy. Drones do not make honey or pollinate.

Now if your operation is the production of bees, that skews the value of drones and you may wish to be selective on which colonies to favor or discourage drone production in.

If you are very isolated with only a handful of colonies it likely would be good insurance to encourage drones but if you are in high bee population area, not so much.

Not so easy to come up with one simple answer and claim "enough said".


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## NoWIBeek (May 27, 2019)

crofter said:


> ... If you are very isolated with only a handful of colonies it likely would be good insurance to encourage drones but if you are in high bee population area, not so much.


Not knowing my area as far as honey bees go I think I can say with some confidence that my bees live in an area that is fairly isolated. I know of no other beekeepers in my town , though, there may be some. We're in the northwoods with little agriculture. Last spring/summer, BB (before Bs) I looked at blossoms regularly as I tried in vain to catch a swarm. With that activity I came to the conclusion that I live in a bee desert. Lots of pollinators, Bumbles, black bees, hummers, hummingbird moths, etc., but I only saw one honey bee all summer. Contrast that with this spring with two building colonies and bees are everywhere.

I'm happy with whatever results from my experiments with being TF. I am saying TF even though I suspect both the package and the nuc I started with are both from non-treatment free apiary. That's another story altogether; the sources both lied about the origins of the bees until I picked them up... If they make it this winter I will be ecstatic. If not I'll continue my swarm trapping efforts until successful.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I originally was probably as isolated as you are. After needing to do a thorough mite treatment on original nucs I only had to do minor treatment; could very likely managed TF as they were fierce groomers. That changed though as other bees have been brought in. Some people encourage drone production and timely culling for a mite control strategy but others are conscientious objectors. I brought in a few new queens for diversity in view of the inbreeding angle but have been told it probably was not necessary. 

I ran some frames of foundationless but found the drone production to be ridiculous. Some people have different views on this but in my cold climate with my bees it did not suit me. It is more practical I found to create dedicated drone space though rather than have it willy nillly over all comb areas. I believe in managing drones. There are naturally no honey bees up here so I dont worry at all about so called "natural beekeeping".


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

If NoWIBeek is truly as isolated as he believes, there is a good chance his TF efforts will succeed, even using less than optimal stock. I suspect however, that there are feral bees around and subsequent matings will only serve to improve his chances. In that case, keeping the southern package/ almond bee drones to a minimum might be a good idea for now.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have a lot of foundationless frames. I have a lot of drone comb. I put it on the outside of the boxes. I never cull it. I never remove it. I never kill drones.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

(Just a note that I do not practice TF beekeeping.)

One Spring I inserted foundationless frames into a robust and vigorous hive. I put one foundationless frame into the center of each box of the brood nest. The bees built the frames out post-haste as drone comb and went to town producing drones. That hive produced huge amounts of drones, and the hive itself was quite big. However, roughly 50% of the hive population was eventually drones. There were so many drones I could never find the queen with all the "big" bees on the frames. Despite the large hive population, that hive did not produce much honey. My goal is honey production, and that experiment was a disaster towards that goal. Never doing that again.

But, I do find that some drone comb has value. It is good for spearing with a cappings scratcher and examining the drone larvae for mites. If you see few-if-any mites on the drone larvae, you know the hive has minimal mite numbers.





.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> I have a lot of foundationless frames. I have a lot of drone comb. I put it on the outside of the boxes. I never cull it. I never remove it. I never kill drones.


I believe you have said that honey is not your main product


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I believe you have said that honey is not your main product

No. Queens are my main product.


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## marktheprinter (Oct 21, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> I have a lot of foundationless frames. I have a lot of drone comb. I put it on the outside of the boxes. I never cull it. I never remove it. I never kill drones.


I live in So cal. Killer bees or Hot bees are a problem in some hives. I do not want those to reproduce. I think taking the Drones out will keep those hives from passing on the aggressive behavior.


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

I am not a card carrying TF keeper, I just haven't had to treat in 3 years. I use foundationless deep frames in all my brood boxes and the brood area in my horizontal hive. My bees make the most drones in spring, then some in summer, and then less and less until fall. What you describe seems like a low number for this time of year. If you are worried about swarming keep an eye out for backfilling nectar in brood areas along with a drastic increase in drone brood.


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## Haroldj (Apr 27, 2017)

NoWIBeek - Hi, there is a beekeeping club that meets in Iron Mountain,MI on a semi-regular basis, and we have a number of beekeepers from northern Marinette county. I am also a newer beekeeper from the UP and have yet to be successful in
getting bees to overwinter, I have been trying for the last couple years. I have 4 hives this year and will keep trying. The club members are all very helpful and like helping new beekeepers. I also work in Marinette, PM me for more info if interested.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I'm mostly topbar hives and all foundationless and don't use the standard treatments to take care of varroa in my hives. However, I think drones may have more duties in a hive than research has shown, so I mostly allow them to exist. Some hives can be 50% drones if I don't rearrange the bars or pull queens so they fill them up with honey. I also raise queens so I like the diverse genetic material flying around in the DCAs.

In the summer months, I will take the 100% drones frames that are capped and either freeze them or pull out the grubs to do a mite test count. If it is exceedingly high in a hive, I will try and eliminate all the capped drones at the time (and do some of my other mite management measures).


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

.
I'm not even treatment free, but since we are doing pics i'll show off one of my beautiful drone combs. A comb like this can churn out more than two and a half thousand drones per cycle.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Drones are haploid and therefore all weaknesses show in their phenotype. Mite pressure affects drones in many ways: some don´t hatch, some are not able to fly, some have few sperm, some have other disabilities. 

If drone brood is culled it serves only as short time help for existing colonies. In long term it does great deal harm for varroa resistance breeding. 

Breeding advance in varroa resistance is likely to be faster via drone raising than queen raising. But of course doing both is the best.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I have always wondered how many Varroa affected Drones make it to the DCAs and mate? If they don't, then they wouldn't be passing on the ability to survive mites, or would they?

Alex


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

AHudd said:


> I have always wondered how many Varroa affected Drones make it to the DCAs and mate? If they don't, then they wouldn't be passing on the ability to survive mites, or would they?
> 
> Alex


Alex:

Great question. Hopefully someone has some good anecdotal information on this. It seems logical to me that only the fittest drones successfully mate, so the varroa-impaired drones would be very under-represented in reproduction.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I've just never understood how breeding for varroa resistance could succeed if neither parent had been affected by them. 

Alex


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