# Mite Count w/ FGMO???



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Greetings . . .

Many 'keepers here are using FGMO. Hopefully, all have been keeping records of mite falls from routine mite counts. Please share those numbers with us.

thanx,


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Dave W
_________________________
A NewBEE with 1 hive.
First package installed
April, 2003.


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## clintonbemrose (Oct 23, 2001)

I have been using FGMO fogging and the cords for 2 years and have found that the mite count drop varies acording to the time of year
Spring usually low from 0 to 3 in 24 hours
Summer usually low to medium 2 to 8 in 24 hours
Fall depending on how the other hives are kept in the area from 3 to hundreds because my bees are raiding poorly treated hives. That is the reason I fog all hives weekly to control the mites comming in. But I have found that you need to check another way also. This is to double check the drop count. I use the sugar roll and also use the eather roll sometimes.
Clint

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Clinton Bemrose
just South of Lansing Michigan


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Greetings clintonbemrose,

Thanks for reply. Hope others will share too!

Dave W


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## Jorge (Sep 24, 2002)

My experience has been similar to Clint's.
During spring and summer I had counts close to zero (drops through the SBB). In September the numbers went up to a few per day. In October things got worse and the numbers continued climbing up to ~100/day in my most infected hive and ~60/day in my other 2. Last week the numbers in the worst infected went above 100 and have stayed so including this morning's count, while the other 2 are clearly starting to show lower numbers (in the 10-20 range for the past few days).

I have fogged weekly (and replaced cords biweekly) through the summer and early fall. Lately I have been fogging 2 or even 3 times a week weather permitting and replaced the cords less often because of the weather.

Jorge


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Here is a Varroa calculator where you get an idea how many mites MIGHT BE left in your colonies. Remember, one Varroa left in January CAN multiply up to 60  100 mites to the end of the next season. 
http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/environ/bee/varroamodel/app.cfm


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## WineMan (May 16, 2003)

I think this will be the winter/spring that could put more interest into FGMO and maybe mainstream it. The interest has skyrocketed over this year as Dr. R. has been speaking in a number of states and it seems that folks have jumped on the band wagon. Ive heard of numerous commercial folks who add up to tens of thousands of colonies that have been using it all summer. If its seen as a positive heading into spring, I think more comments will come out and that could move it into the spotlight.

I probably sound like a broken record but if you want to see what the fogging is doing you might want to have control colonies and count mites between the two. If you use a big enough random sampling, then you can compare how the summer count grows between the two as fall approaches. Its a pain but interesting


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
Thanks to all of you who are providing input regarding your observations with your own hives and your treatment with FGMO.
Thank you wineman for your kind words of confidence. (Sorry that I did not get to visit with you while I visited your lovely state, perhaps we will in the enar future; also the same applies to Clint. See you soon, okay, guys?).
I concur with your observations. I am working on my report for this years work and woon wil be ready for all to read and compare. 
I share your enthusiasm and believe that FGMO-thymol will be a prominent alternative treatment for honey bee parasites.
Thank you all for your turst in my work.
Best regards.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Kurt Bower (Aug 28, 2002)

I would post the actual mite drop #'s from some of my colonies, but the results would scare you. I have been using FGMO 2+ years but had a lapse of use due to my father's poor health and subsequent death.
I checked mite drop after fogging 3 weeks in a row with similar results each time (24 hour period) September-October treatment.

I switched to FGMO-thymol cords and got 3-4 times the previous mite drops. I will be using FGMO-thymol again in the spring! 
Can't wait to see how they overwinter!

Kurt 

[This message has been edited by Kurt Bower (edited November 10, 2003).]


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Greetings . . .

If mite drops are low, (none to a few) is that because there is no mites in hive? And, if numbers are high, (50, 100) are they the results of effective treatment?

thanx,
Dave W

------------------
Dave W . . .

A NewBEE with 1 hive.
First package installed
April, 2003.


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## WineMan (May 16, 2003)

Its hard to make much sense out of a mite count relative to the effectiveness of most treatments without knowing what the count was prior to treatment. The treatment may have been totally effective and all the mites fell before you ever took a sampling and all you see are a couple of mites. The treatment may be effective and you are seeing lots of mites on the board because there are still mites alive but the treatment is still working. The treatment may have failed due to resistance by the mites and you see lots of mites falling naturally. There may have been so few mites to begin with that all you see after treatment are a couple on your boards.

Say you have a natural fall of 50 before treatment....you would expect and hope to see a higher fall after you treat. If you were to use any of the typical chemicals like apistan/coumaphos/formic/thymol and the mites werent resistant you will get X mite fall which varies by hive configuration, season, temperature, hive activity, etc. As a side note, counting mites after treatment with those products will also give you a clue to whether there is resistance. The mite fall after treatment tends to vary somewhat by the type of treatment used and will also vary in duration with different treatments......coumaphos and apistan act similarly while formic and thymol based products act differently due to the evaporation aspect. 

If you know what the pre-treatment numbers are, the numbers right after treatment and the numbers after a few weeks you can tell if you have killed off a substantial portion of the mites. If you have way too much time on your hands, you can use one of the mite population models and use the pre-treatment fall to give an estimation of total mites....then you can count the number of mites that fall and know when you have killed virtually all of them. 

If you dont have any idea what the mite fall was before you are basically guessing if the mites on your sticky board fell naturally or if it was due to any treatment. If you are getting low mite number with or without treatment, that is good though. And that might not be out of the question if FGMO had been applied over a period of time.

Just my ramblings for the day.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Im not against Dr. R. and his work, and for my writing I even have his blessing. 

I always search the net to find new results in the fight against the Varroa. Sometimes you can find positive notes and sometime negatives.

As I said a while ago on this forum; dont stay on one leg!! If youre a backyard beekeeper with a few colonies .and you love your girls make sure and treat not ONLY with FGMO and the cords. 

Im not a promoter of Thymol and Oxalic Acid but I treated my colonies this year with a combination of both, April Thymol crystals for approx a month and October/November Oxalic Acid with a Vaporizer. 
The mite fall 10 days after the last OA treatment; One colony with 1 Varroa, one colony with 2 Varroa and 9 colonies with 0 Varroa.

0ne colony had no treatment for tow years and I had to kill the bees with sulfur. After that, the mite fall was more than 7000 and the leftover brood in cells had APV. Looks like foulbrood but comes from a virus carried by the Varroa. There was no robbing from my other colonies and also no reinvention. 

Here more interesting results from Beekeepers in Kanada.

1)
I might also add that at the recent BCHPA meeting in Kelowna B.C., a
Provincial Apiarist (and very well-known reseaqrcher) stood up to warn the
assembly that a small commercial beekeeper had placed faith in FGMO fogging
*without monitoring the results* and had lost almost all hives as a direct
result. Another Apiarist from another province also stood up to relate a
similar experience. I stood up and pointed out that it might have some
usefulness in an IPM scenario, BUT, I also warned that monitoring the before
and after is the key. Many reports have shown that FGMO fog alone will not
provide adequate control in mant cases. That fact can be confirmed by the
assertion by Dr, rodriguez, himseld, in theat same forum, that he is now
investigatiing use of thymol in the fog.

I personally believe that FGMO can have an application, but just be careful
that it is working in YOUR situation. No method is foolproof, and this one
is more operator dependant than mant.

allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com 

2) 
Of all the comments about FGMO, Allen has condensed it well in that one
paragraph. That has been the statement after every variant of a FGMO
application method since the first posts many years ago - We only need
to change one more thing. Add the comments from the beekeepers who lost
hives and the statements by the Province Experts and you have a
consistent message.

I have many emails in my files from those who lost hives to FGMO but
were afraid to post about their losses for fear of the standard comment-
you did not do it right (even under supervision!)- as well as retribution.

FGMO does drop mites, but so do many mite dropping treatments that cost
less and are easier to apply.

The problem with FGMO is that it is a moving target. How can you
adequately test a moving target? For it to work properly, you need to
use it as a drip. As a strip. As a spray. With a fogger. With a cord.
With open mesh floors. With thymol. With...

Bill Truesdell
Bath, Maine


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

WineMan: Bless You! You have put into words many of my exact thoughts, Im unable to express them as well as you. Iam still pondering how to judge (for myself) the effectiveness of ANY mite treatment. Obviously, long-term colony survial is the final goal.

------------------
Dave W . . .

A NewBEE with 1 hive.
First package installed
April, 2003.


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## clintonbemrose (Oct 23, 2001)

I think that all this proves is that you need to check, check and check again with more than 1 type of checking. Sugar roll, eather roll or a drop test more than 1 time a month. Bee a beekeeper not a bee-haver
FGMO foging and cords work for me. Thanks Dr. R
Clint

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Clinton Bemrose
just South of Lansing Michigan


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
Thank you all for your constant contibutions to the FGMO forum. We need to be dynamic and sincere about our work findings. Productive and factual data will provide beekeepers around the world the mechanics to control honey bee parasites. Negative and imaginary scenarios contribute nothing. 
Thank you Clint, Wineman, JDF, Kurt, and the hundreds of others who are using FGMO and giving it a chance as an alternative treatment. Best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Clinton, Jorge, Kurt, WineMan, you have very graciously answered my question. Thank you.
I was hoping for an honest reply from many others. Please keep the numbers coming!

thanx,

------------------
Dave W . . .

A NewBEE with 1 hive.
First package installed
April, 2003.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello again folks.
I forgot to mention in today's previous post that results for this year's tests with FGMO-thymol are projected for publishing in January 2004. FGMO-thymol application has taken a a much needed improvement. Results are "outstanding," thank The Lord for guidance and and inspiration.
Best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Greetings Dr Rodriguez,

Do you have some NUMBERS you would like to share?

thanx,
Dave W


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## Russ (Sep 9, 2001)

Dr. R, You say that your results are projected to be published in Jan. 2004, Where will it be published?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It has been in the sixties F the last few days. I just treated 19 hives that, up until now, have had nothing but small cell comb and FGMO fog, with Oxalic Acid fog from an evaporator like BWrangler has on his site. My total mite drop after the Oxalic acid treatment varied from 20 to 60 mites per hive. This leads me to believe that either the FGMO fog and small cell works pretty well to only have that many mites in the whole hive, or the oxalic acid doesn't work very well and there are still a lot of mites. If the weather holds, maybe I'll get a chance to do a sugar roll test and see what I find.

I decided that I needed to have NO mites come spring when I get the hives inspected for certification so I can ship bees, and I wanted to test both the FGMO and the Oxalic and see what I think.

So far I don't see anything easier on me and the bees than the FGMO fog. But FGMO does not kill ALL the mites. It certainly seemed to help keep the population down while I was regressing though and if I wasn't shipping bees that would probably be good enough for me.

I still have 25 hives at another site that have not been treated with anything but FGMO fog. I haven't had time to go measure mite drop on them (they are an hour drive away), but they seem to be doing fine.

Now I need to clean the fogger. It's not getting hot enough anymore and the hot oil squirts out instead of fogging.

It's always something.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Greetings MrBEE

Thanx for the reply. 

I am NOT trying to pick a fight or put you on a 'spot', but please clearify a couple points.

1) "I need to have NO mites come spring". Will you need to use something in ADDITION to FGMO?

2) Many, many, many times you have stated, "monitor the mite levels". Dont you regularly "monitor"? What was your count BEFORE Oxalic Acid treatment? How do you know FGMO is working (before OA)? 

thanx,
Dave W


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1) "I need to have NO mites come spring". Will you need to use something in ADDITION to FGMO?

That was why I tried the Oxalic Acid. I still had some mites. I'm hoping to have NO mites for inspection so I can get them certified by the state as free of pests and diseases. If I was just trying to keep my bees healthy and alive, I would be happy with just the results from the FGMO fog.

>2) Many, many, many times you have stated, "monitor the mite levels". Dont you regularly "monitor"? What was your count BEFORE Oxalic Acid treatment? How do you know FGMO is working (before OA)? 

I try to offer good advice. Just because I say you SHOULD doesn't mean I'm that good at getting it done myself!







Regularly would be a nice thing. Unfortunately I often get too busy. But I would say my mite levels just before the OA treatment were only a few (three to ten) a day on most hives. I think they were higher a month ago, but I was too busy to be very scientific about it. I just spot checked some here and there.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
In reply to your questions:
(1). This year's test results have been submitted for publication to ABJ. Hopely in the January 2004 issue. 
(2). As might be expected, it is long and comprehensive. It includes valuable innovations. It is rather difficult to "pick" isolated areas for discussion. It is advisable that the entire report be read.
Best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

MrBEE,

AGAIN, thanx for your reply. Your answers are always open, honest and very enlightning.

Thank you,
Dave W


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Just for the record, I will restate WHY I always stress monitoring. I've either seen or heard of every method failing. I've heard of no more failures of FGMO than I have of Apistan or Check Mite, in fact I've heard of less. There is a tendancy to just use a treatment and assume it works. I hate to see people lose their bees that way. If you're monitoring you get the opportunity to try something else if what you're using is not working.

Another possiblilty for differences in success might be the mite resitance or total lack of it, in the bees.

Mine are mostly feral survivors (mostly Italian looking witha few black ones) with some Carnolian and Russian and a few Italians.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>I've heard of no more failures of FGMO than I have of Apistan or Check Mite, in fact I've heard of less. 


Could that be because there are more people useing chemicals than FGMO?

Bill


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## Jorge (Sep 24, 2002)

Hi there,

An update on my fight against Varroa mites:
I have 3 hives and a few weeks ago I reported that, in spite of using FGMO weekly through the summer, the numbers of fallen mites (on the SBB) dramatically increased in October. Then I started treating w/FGMO 2 times a week in addition to the cotton cords. Since the temperatures have been no higher that around 50, I have not renewed the cords anymore and relied excusively on the fog.
Now, the numbers in 2 of the hives reached a max of about 50-70 mites/day a couple of weeks ago but have fallen to half or less since. The other hive keeps showing very high numbers (at least twice as much as the other 2, but I have stopped counting for lack of time, just "guesstimates"). I suspect that this 3rd hive is beyond saving at this time since the temperatures are low and unlikely to go up again until late winter.

I am disappointed with these results with FGMO since it is purported to keep the numbers much lower (or so I thought) and I have followed the FGMO application rules as close as I can understand them (and I believe I understand them since they are not that hard).

I wonder now if thymol application (on the top bars or as fog) is adviceable at this stage given the temperatures we are having here (40s to 50s and likely to drop very soon). Any comments would be enormously wellcome.

Thanks

jorge


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>I've heard of no more failures of FGMO than I have of Apistan or Check Mite, in fact I've heard of less. 

>Could that be because there are more people useing chemicals than FGMO?

Most of the people I talk to are on here and I'd say LESS of them are using Apistan or Check Mite than FGMO. But I do have some friends around here (in Nebraska) who use Check Mite or Apistan.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I wonder now if thymol application (on the top bars or as fog) is adviceable at this stage given the temperatures we are having here (40s to 50s and likely to drop very soon). Any comments would be enormously wellcome.

If it's warm enough for them to fly you could treat with Oxalic Acid. BWrangler has a simple evaporator he shows how to build on his web site. The problem is if it's really badly infested they still may not make it even if you kill all the mites now becuase of damage to the bees that are there when they were developing. But it's probably worth a try.

As to failures, I don't know why some fail. Maybe some bees are genetically so succeptable that the mites reproduce at a much faster rate? Maybe they let more mites come back? Maybe they are robbers and pick more up from other sources?

From my perspective, my intent was to just do small cell but I needed some way to keep them alive while I regressed. FGMO fog seemed the easiest and least poisonious method. I don't know how much my mite counts are due to regression, how much is due to them being feral survivors and how much is due to the FGMO fog, but when I got most of these hives in the spring, they had only had FGMO fog as treatment, they were not regressed and they were not heavily infested with Varroa.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Most of the people I talk to are on here and I'd say LESS of them are using Apistan or Check Mite than FGMO.


Curious. I do wonder what percentage of the 1074 registered members are using chemicals, FGMO, or nothing.

Those that post are looking for information and support in their use of FGMO and IMHO may be a small percentage of our membership. I wish there was a way to know.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I am a new beekeeper this year and have been using the Burgess Fogger every five days since May. I did my first sticky board test the other day (left it in for three days) and am wondering if I did something wrong because I can find absolutely no varroa whatsoever! The droppings of the weaker hive were merely sugar crystals (some of the bee food crystallized in the hivetop feeder) and pollen. The stronger (very full)hive had pollen and tiny black specks much smaller than what I would think would be varroa (I understand varroa are about the size of the head of a pin). I have looked at these specks through a magnifying glass and see no legs. I telephoned a more experienced beekeeper who opined the specks may be bee dirt (!). Is it really possible that I have absolutely no varroa?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am a new beekeeper this year and have been using the Burgess Fogger every five days since May...The stronger (very full)hive had pollen and tiny black specks much smaller than what I would think would be varroa (I understand varroa are about the size of the head of a pin). I have looked at these specks through a magnifying glass and see no legs.

Varroa are generally a purplish reddish brown color, not black, and they are slightly oval shaped and, yes, they are about the size of the head of a straight pin. This is quite small and if you don't look closely to see the color you might mistake Varroa for black specs. You can also examine the bees for varroa http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/barry/barry_16.htm http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/barry/barry_15.htm and or do a sugar roll test. http://entomology.unl.edu/beekpg/tidings/btid2000/btdjan00.htm#Article2 

>I telephoned a more experienced beekeeper who opined the specks may be bee dirt (!). 

Probaly small peices of dead bees etc.

>Is it really possible that I have absolutely no varroa?

You've been fogging every five days. It's not impossible, but it seems unlikely. But if you have NO mites dropping (check out pictures) http://www.holoweb.com/cannon/varroa_mites.htm then maybe you don't have any.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited November 19, 2003).]


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Michael, thanks for your help. I'm pretty much convinced that as unlikely as it seems, I have no varroa! I've checked every image under "varroa" on the google site--lots of really good ones--even ones of sticky boards--none of the residue on my bottom boards fits the proper description. And like I said, even with my high-powered magnifying glass can make out no legs on those black specks! I should've mentioned too that back in July/August I opened a bunch of drone brood and couldn't find any varroa then either! None of my beekeeping friends live close enough to come have a look, so when I go to our next meeting (Dec 12) I'm going to take the sticky boards with me and see what the pros think. Thanks again for your help.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Most of us are fogging every 14 days. I upped it to every 7 days this fall. Maybe between the fogging every five days and the genetics of your bees you don't have any. Maybe you should raise some queens and sell them.







I'd like to try a couple.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

You made me smile, Michael! We had someone speak at our association meeting on the Jenter queen rearing system. It seems pretty simple--the trick is to do things exactly when they need doing--not even a couple of hours later--which I would have a difficult time complying with. My schedule is so tight, I can never guarantee I can do something that needs doing "exactly 72 hours later." I must say that my strongest hive made its own queen in March and that's the hive that produced 5 gallons of surplus honey for me! And being a new beekeeper, they were started on undrawn foundation in March! Nothing I did, so I'm not bragging; I'm just amazed at what a great hive of bees it is--and gentle to boot!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>You made me smile, Michael!

Then I did something good today.









>We had someone speak at our association meeting on the Jenter queen rearing system. It seems pretty simple--the trick is to do things exactly when they need doing--not even a couple of hours later--which I would have a difficult time complying with.

The only things that need to be within a few hours is releasing the queen from the Jenter cage and the actual transfer. Everything else can be within the day. The tricky part for me was getting them to build the cells.
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000098.html 

Here's my method so far. It's what I did the last time with good sucess.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
Without having a sample to inspect, it is rather difficult to ascertain what the "black particles in pollen" might be. My guess is that the writer is seen wax moth dirt, wax moth fecal matter. Sometimes pollen does become "moldy" and one can see black motling, but not in the form of minute specks. Also, it could be mold spores from some other part of the hive, but most likely, it is due to waz moth fecal matter. 
Best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Greetings Tia,

My first package was installed this past April. I often inspected for mites on my sticky board. I could not find any (I thought). One day while looking at some "black" spots about the size of a pin-head, I saw one move. Since I had been using clear contact paper on my sticky board, I went back and check some of the old ones I had folded in half and saved. Sure enough, I had mites, and had missed them.

When I examine w/ a maginifer, the 8 legs are very hard for me to see. Sometimes, if the mites are dead, their legs dont even show.

Sometimes I find "spots" that I think are mites, but after touching w/ a pencil point, they ooze out, mites are hard.

As far as colors that I have seen, females are pale to reddish-brown. Male are considerably smaller and are pale to light tan. 

Hope this helps!

------------------
Dave W . . .

A NewBEE with 1 hive.
First package installed
April, 2003.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't know why I didn't think of wax moth feces. That is also a possibility. I still think it's likely, as DaveW says, that those are mites. Their legs are quite small and when dead are curled up.

I counted mites again today, about the same as right after the Oxalic Acid treatment so I'm guessing it's still killing some. Still that amounts to a toal on most hives of about 120 mites that the FGMO didn't get and the Oxalic Acid did. I'll try to keep checking to see if there is more. I was figuring it would drop back to zero soon.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Michael, Dave & Dr. Rodriguez, sure appreciate your input. I'm hoping that Dr. Rodriguez is right--wax moth feces--but, Dave, I'm going to check the sheets again and put a pencil point to some of the black spots to see what happens. Like I said, though, these spots are much smaller than the head of a pin--more like black pepper flakes. I'll still take them with me to my beekeeper's meeting on Dec 12 and have the more experienced beekeepers have a look.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

MrBEE,

Please define "zero".









Are you "assuming" since your using FGMO, that you "have no mites".









About 2 years ago, when I first started reading this forum, I would see the statement, "I have zero mites". Being naive, I believed it! Now, we are learning thats not 100% true, 100% of the time.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
Word to the wise:
I would be careful with any material taken out of a hive, especially since we do not know what it is. I would at least drop into a vial with alcohol.
Best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>MrBEE, Please define "zero". 

In the context of the last time I used it, I was refering to mite drop. According to reports from Axtman and others about Oxalic it should kill all of the mites not in brood. I have no brood therefore, if it works as well as reported there should be no mites dropping because there also should be no mites. Do I believe that there will be NO mites? Probably not, but if there is not detectable mites, I'll be happy.

>Are you "assuming" since your using FGMO, that you "have no mites". 

I KNOW that using FMGO I had mites. The Oxalic acid killed some of them at least. There have been at least 120 mites die in each of my hives in the last several days since using the Oaxalic acid. That's still tolerable amount of mites if I weren't being inspected in the spring and hoping to get certified as free from diseases and parasites so I can ship bees.

What remains to be seen is if the Oxalic Acid killed most if not all of them and what the drop will be after the effects of the OA wear off.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

MrBEE,
Very well (and clearly) stated. 
Thanx


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I took Dave W's advice and took a pencil point to the black dots. They smear with the exception of a few. I took the hard black dots out and inspected them, but still can't tell what I'm looking at. I think I've figured out what the "pepper" is, though. I think it's mildew that's formed in the hive top feeder. Only one hive has the mildew and that's the one with the "pepper." I'm going to clean the feeders today and run a new 3-day sticky board test on all three hives tomorrow. I'll have the results on Thanksgiving.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I checked for mite drop again today (it's bee three days since the last time) and there had accumulated about an average of 60 mites per hive. Can Axtman or anyone else with experience with Oxalic acid tell me if this is normal for the mite kill to continue for a week? I hope that's not a natural drop rate.

I was really hoping, since the claims for oxalic acid are that it is extremely effective, that it would be a way to validate the results of the FGMO.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Hello Michael
I find out that the mites dropping for at least 10 days after a treatment with Oxalic Acid vapor. 

When bees are sitting in cluster or close together in these cold days it takes a while for the acid to reach almost all bees. The fog covers bees on the outside from the cluster and when they going inside to warm up it starts with the mite fall. Wait approx 20 days and treat the colonies a second time to see how strong the mite infection was.
Hope you got the right vaporizer with the exact amount of acid; at least 2 grams per treatment should reach the bees.

Very important is to heat the acid very slowly so it can totally evaporate. When heating up to fast lots of acid sprays up and stick in the pipe or hose what ever you are using. The ingoing pipe to the vaporizer is for air and can be small 4 mm /1/8 inch but the outgoing pipe/hose must be at least 15 mm / 1/2 inch or even 19 mm / 3/4.

Its easy for you to test what kind of treatment works best for your bees. Treat one hive with your Oxalic Acid Vaporizer and a second one with your oil fogger. After 10/14 days count the mites from both hives and than change the treatment number 1 with the fogger and number 2 with your vaporizer and let us know how the result was.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It was almost 70 degrees F out when I used the Oxalic. I'm sure it kills more mites. I'm not sure I'd want to use it a lot. The FGMO fogger is quite simple to use during the year with the supers on etc. and I'm curious how much it has kept the population down using just that. So far, a week after the Oxalic I have killed, with the Oxalic acid, about 180 mites per hive. That seems like a tolerable mite load, but I want to get to none so I can get them inspected to ship them in the spring.

I don't know how hard the Oxalic acid is on the bees in the long run, but I did not notice any increase in dead bees from the hives. So far I'm quite impressed with the Oxalic acid, but it also validates that the FGMO was keeping the population down, if the OA is still killing mites and we are almost to the end of that process. I can't say for sure until the OA wears off and I see what kind of drop I have then.

How many treatments do you do to take care of virtually all of the mites? I've only done one OA treatment so far. I was planning on doing one again in the spring as early as the bees are flying.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It was almost 70 degrees F out when I used the Oxalic. I'm sure it kills more mites. I'm not sure I'd want to use it a lot. The FGMO fogger is quite simple to use during the year with the supers on etc. and I'm curious how much it has kept the population down using just that. So far, a week after the Oxalic I have killed, with the Oxalic acid, about 180 mites per hive. That seems like a tolerable mite load, but I want to get to none so I can get them inspected to ship them in the spring.

I don't know how hard the Oxalic acid is on the bees in the long run, but I did not notice any increase in dead bees from the hives. So far I'm quite impressed with the Oxalic acid, but it also validates that the FGMO was keeping the population down, if the OA is still killing mites and we are almost to the end of that process. I can't say for sure until the OA wears off and I see what kind of drop I have then.

How many treatments do you do to take care of virtually all of the mites? I've only done one OA treatment so far. I was planning on doing one again in the spring as early as the bees are flying.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Hallo Michael

You can use the OA treatment several times in row without ANY problems to your bees. I would NOT wait till spring because you dont know exactly when bees starting with brood. As soon as the first brood get sealed the Varroa is not on your bees anymore. Is in the closed cells and start breeding also.
I had Thymol crystals in my colonies this spring with the best result. Thymol penetrates into the wax and kills mites in closed cells. As I said a while ago dont stay on one leg. In my experiences the combination Thymol in spring and Oxalic Acid in fall/winter works with the best result and on top, Thymol kills trachea mites also. 
Im using some wooden dosage trays and the Thymol crystals. Its more than 10 times cheaper than Apiguard. 
I tested one dose Apiguard jelly, and I find out the bees removing that mixture out of the hive in approx 2 weeks. 

>>>>I don't know how hard the Oxalic acid is on the bees in the long run, but I did not notice any increase in dead bees from the hives<<<<

The liquid OA is hard the hard way, it kills many bees when its to cold but the fog has no harm. Its the main treatment in Russia for over 20 years without ANY problem.

I always vaporize my colonies 3 times in row (approx 10 days apart). The last one is only for control that I didnt miss to many mites. Just in case I started when bees still had brood.
Its nothing compare to other treatments during the whole year. And this one works with no chemical remainder in wax or your colonies also. 

I know there are always a few Varroa left even with OA, we dont have the silver bullet to get rid of all mites!


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
I have followed the thread about mite counts and mite drops for quite a while. I am puzzled by the fact that those reporting mite drops/counts. They have not said the period of time involved between counts. This is a very important factor in order to measure the "daily mite fall count." In my work, I count the number of mites collected and divide by 24, thus, for example, 180 mites drop count:

180 divided by 24 would be equivalent to 
7.5 mites per day, or 7.5 mites average daily drop.
Obviously, since mite drop varies for each hive, one must keep acurate individuaul hive records. 
Best regards and God bless.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
I have not tested Oxalic Acid use on my hives. However, I have just attended a 
Beekeeping Congress in Portugal where a beekeepers who uses Oxalic Acid gave a demonstration. According to his demonstration, the treatment is hazardous, time of year-restricted, expensive and too time consuming. 
On the other hand, I have tested thymol and found that if used in low dosis, (fogging and emulsion soaked cords) thymol does not have any of the negative qualities of OA. 
Based on my personal work and the presentation given at that Congress, I would recommend thymol usage.
Best regards and God bless. 
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My mite counts were an average 180 total over 7 days AFTER Oxalic acid treatment. I was hoping to find out how many mites TOTAL there were on the bees after using just the FGMO fog over the last year. (and most of them had only FGMO fog over the year before also) I figure that's not too bad.

My other hives have had nothing but the FGMO fog and I have not used the oxalic acid on them, but I also haven't had the time to go do mite drops and I didn't get screened bottom boards on them yet either.

For general purposes, I think you want a 24 hour drop or an average of several days of 24 hour drops.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Tia.
I think that you just "found" the reason for the "black" dots. Mildew spores. I seem to recall that I suggested a fews days back about the possibility of mold in you hives.
Good luck, happy Thanksgiving.
Best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>My mite counts were an average 180 total over 7 days AFTER Oxalic acid treatment

That sounds pretty clean to me.A 24 hour Apistan test would confirm it.I remember reading that the mite drop reached its peak on the fourth day after vaporising oxalic.


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## WineMan (May 16, 2003)

Hey M. Bush

Having only 180 mites in 7 days seems awful good for general purposes. The mite population calculator that I use typically works out to something like 2500 total mite population with a corresponding natural fall of 20 per 24 hour period (3 day average) when done in september. 

Please keep us updated on how many end up continuing to fall. Sure looks like things are headed in a positive direction for you.....perhaps your bees or the fgmo or the combination, hopefully its not just a down mite cycle in your area.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

This was not natural mite fall, but the fall after the Oxalic Acid treatment. Still I'm pleased overall so far.


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## Jorge (Sep 24, 2002)

>Having only 180 mites in 7 days seems awful >good for general purposes. 

Boy, and I have been fretting about a similar count thinking that this is a terribly high number. In 2 of my 3 hives the numbers have been around 25, on some days perhaps 30 or so. Now this is with nothing but FGMO treatment. These hives went through a spike of close to 50 or so mites/day in late October, but are down again to 25-30/day.

On the other hand, my 3rd hive has counts at least twice has high as the other 2, with exactly the same treatment. ????

This weekend we had balmy 50s in temperature with bees flying and even collecting pollen (from what!!??), so I fogged again twice over a 3 day period. I recently realized that, having a (closed bottom) SBB, a lot of the fog exits through its opening rather quickly, so I have been closing the opening of the SBB for a while after fogging (and I have left only the smallest entrance of an entrance reducer open for the bees) to force maximum fog concentration inside. I wonder if this was part of the recomended FGMO treatment that I have overlooked so far.

Another question I have is: I would expect mite counts to increase significantly on the 24hrs following fogging, but I don't see a large increase. Any ideas? The obvious answer would be that FGMO isn't doing anything at all. However, now that you guys are saying that 25drops/day is great, I conclude that FGMO must have been working (at least on the 2 hives I mentioned.

Thanks 

Jorge


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

A natural(untreated )drop of 25 a day would not be good,in my opinion.A drop of 25 right after an effective treatment would indicate that there werent a huge amount of mites to be killed.If you arent sure the mineral oil is working,stick a Checkmite strip in for 24 hours,or dribble some oxalic solution in.The results might shock you.It did me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Boy, and I have been fretting about a similar count thinking that this is a terribly high number. In 2 of my 3 hives the numbers have been around 25, on some days perhaps 30 or so. Now this is with nothing but FGMO treatment. These hives went through a spike of close to 50 or so mites/day in late October, but are down again to 25-30/day.

Just to clarify, I will reiterate. I am not talking about a NATURAL fall. Nor am I talking about a mite count after fogging with FGMO. I am talking about hives that have been treated for two years with nothing but FGMO fog and THEN were treated with Oxalic Acid to see what kind of fall there was. With the Oxalic Acid treatment (which I keep hearing is 99% effective or so) there were an average drop of 180 mites in 7 days. This was NOT my drop before the OA treatment.

If I got 180 mites in 7 days with no treatment I would be VERY worried.

My point was that a very deadly treatment like OA only killed that many after two years of a very harmless (to the bees etc.) treatment of FGMO. That was part of my purpose, to see how well the FGMO was working. I think it was working as I expected it to. The mite populations were low.

I still love the FGMO. I can use it any time of the year. I can use it with the supers on. It's cheaper and easier. I should check my other hives. It may not work as well there. I don't have them as regressed. I don't have SBB on them. A lot of the effectiveness of FGMO fog may be that a lot of them get dislodges and fall through the screen. Without it, how many will survive to crawl back on? I know even with Apistan there are a lot that get knocked down but survive.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

MrBEE,

Do you have ANY record of what your drop was BEFORE your Oxalic acid treatment?


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## WineMan (May 16, 2003)

I probably added to the confusion of this post. Im in the same camp with the others, a natural fall in the range of 20-30 is often right on the edge of trouble when you are in a northern climate. Delaplane (spelling) uses a different model and the threshold is more like 50-60 but it is for the southern states. 

I was also agreeing with what M.B. said....if oxalic works as good as many say (I have never tried it)....and he is only getting 180 mites after 7 days, then that is good and indicates he had few mites to start with. If you look in one of the bee mags from a month or so ago, there is an article by Szabo that gives a total population calculator if you have natural fall numbers. I use a slightly revised version of it and a natural fall of about 20 equates to a total mite population in the mid 2000's. So if M.B. is only finding 180 mites after treatment, he had very little to begin with assuming the acid is working. Which would make you think that (1) his bees naturally have low mites numbers to begin with, or (2) fgmo is working, or (3) his bees and fgmo go together nicely or (4) there are few mites in the area to begin with. 

Jorge---if you want to know for sure do as loggermike said. Add a chemical strip ( fluvalinate or coumaphos give the most reliable drops if there is no resistance) for one day. Im not sure what kind of numbers you will see this time of year. That might depend alot on your weather. When the bees are clustered tight, the mites arent as readily exposed to the chemicals and the numbers arent so reliable. But if they are still flying you should get a decent picture of how many mites you have. 

As a reference point, the 24 hour fall after chemical treatment of formic, fluvalinate or coumaphos typically is 10-30 times what the natural fall is depending on a few factors. I have personally never seen those kind of drops after fogging. After fogging, I typically see an increased drop above the natural rate but it is not of the same magnitude as the chemicals. Which follows along the lines that fogging wont work as a one time shot when the population is high and needing to fog on a regular basis or perhaps use cords in conjunction or consider thymol additive. No idea why you are seeing 20 or so after fogging on a regular basis. Maybe those are the numbers that are dying from the fog. To find out, you gotta put in a strip for 24 hours. Or just not worry about it and see what spring holds.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you have ANY record of what your drop was BEFORE your Oxalic acid treatment?

I would say my mite levels just before the OA treatment were only a few (maybe three to ten at the most) a day on most hives. I was too busy to be very scientific about it. I just spot checked some here and there.

>So if M.B. is only finding 180 mites after treatment, he had very little to begin with assuming the acid is working. Which would make you think that (1) his bees naturally have low mites numbers to begin with, or (2) fgmo is working, or (3) his bees and fgmo go together nicely or (4) there are few mites in the area to begin with. 

As you said "assuming the acid is working" so it could be (5) the Oxalic Acid is NOT working.









I am doing several things:

(1) Screened Bottom Boards.
I'm convicned that in combination with ANY method these greatly improve results.

(2) Feral Survivors and other Mite resistant stock.
I have mostly feral survivors and an assortment of other stock including Russians and Carniolans.

(3) Small Cell.
Most of my hives at my Greenwood location are fully regressed. Most of my other hives in my outyard are partially regressed. I haven't gotten all the combs swapped out for the small cell, wax coated, PermaComb yet.

(4) FGMO fog every two weeks in the summer and every week in the fall.

>Which follows along the lines that fogging wont work as a one time shot when the population is high and needing to fog on a regular basis 

I agree. No one has tried to say that FGMO is a deadly one shot cure for mites. It takes regular application.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Okay, This past Sunday I ran a second sticky board test on all three of my hives. This time I fogged them immediately after putting the sticky boards in place (the previous test where I found no mites whatsoever was conducted prior to the 5-day fogging). Today, Friday (5 days), I found no mites in hive #1 (hygenic queen), 3 in hive #2 (my strong hive with a naturally raised queen) and 5 mites in my newest hive--the one that was treated in September with Apistan. I guess the FGMO treatment killed some mites and I was finally able to see what I'm supposed to be looking for. I've found the easiest way to spot them is in the sunlight, tilt the board back and forth--the mites reflect the light and are actually very easy to see this way. That "black pepper" I had asked about in my previous post was, in fact, mildew. Once I cleaned the feeder the "pepper flakes" did not return. I also found it interesting that the most mites showed up in the hive that up until three weeks ago had been treated with Apistan.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I also found it interesting that the most mites showed up in the hive that up until three weeks ago had been treated with Apistan.

That's not surprising. Last time I used Apistan was last fall and it failed completly.

I checked the mite count again on Thursday (12 days from my Oxalic Acid treatments) and found a few more mites brining the average up to about 200 per hive. It was 50 degrees and the bees were flying, so I did another OA treatment yesterday (Thursday) and just did a 24 hour count. Some hives had NO mites. Some had two or three. Most had about 6 or 7 and one had about 30. I think that brings my average up to about 210 mites per colony when I was using nothing but FGMO fog, and feral genetics for two years and small cell for one year. I think that's very good results.


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## cgytm (Aug 14, 2003)

" the treatment is hazardous, time of year-restricted, expensive and too time consuming." Dr Rodriguez.

I think Dr Rodriguez that you should read and experiment a little bit more on OA. According to my experience... OA is very cheap (home made vaporizer costs 10 USD$ each max.), OA crystal are les than 5 cents a year per hive, application needs about 7-8 minutes with a vaporizer for a 2 story hive. I know a beekeeper that vaporizes 200 hives in 4 days (with 5 vaporizers= 50$ (one shot investment!)+ 10.00$ oxalic acid!). That is cheaper than anything else!!! It is non invasive for the bees (much less than cords as you don't have to open hives) as a matter of fact I would compare it to fogging. Very efficient : 98% (average) off all varroas are killed. Can be applied as soon as there is no more brood. Here in Canada (North of Quebec) we have a fall gap of about 6 weeks, until it freezes solid. That is much more more flexible than Thymol like Thymovar. More than enough time for at least 2 applications. Application should be done over 32 F or O C. Some also apply OA at spring time until there is a flow. 

As far as danger is concerned, you have to follow very simple rules there is then no real danger (especially never in an enclosed area). You won't anyway breath a lot as you won't tolerate it. It is surely not insidious! Your specialist surely never used it and doesn't know what he is speaking of...Try it! The best would be to add it to the cords for a year round utilization.

Don't forget that OA life time until it can't be any more detected is about 2 weeks. Until now there has been no test demonstrating that it accumulates for more than 2 weeks in wax or honey... which is not the case of Thymol. Accumulations during the first 2 weeks were also much lower that what can be tolerated...


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
For reasons unknown, I have been missing your posts to the forum for a while now. 
House bee: The man of whom I spoke in Portugal is a professional and has been using Oxalic Acid for quite some time according to him. According to his demonstration, the procedure hazardous, and time consuming, and according to your explanation it is too. 
I have a comments and a questions for the forum. 
Questions.
1. Is there any kinowledge about RESEARCH comparison studies with Thymol versus/pro Oxalic Acid?
2. Is there any knowledge about residue testing for thymol in bees wax or honey?
If so, I would appreciate someone indicating the lead to the source. 
Comments:
1. I have dedicated 9 plus years of hard work to provide beekeepers a cost-effective, non-toxic alternative means of treating honey bee parasites. I am still testing ways to achieve that goal. 
2. My findings for this year are due to be published in February, I am told. Much success has been attained towards that goal as is demonstrated in that publication. Improvements have been introduced that will reduce greatly the time spent for treating with FGMO-thymol.
3. Laboratory residue testing for FGMO in honey revealed negative findings. I am in the process of obtaining chromatography residue test results for thymol and honey for this year's exercise. It is expensive and time consuming and the laboratories are slow in performing such work.
4. My work is time consuming and expensive, and as everyone knows, it is strictly paid with personal funds. As much as I would like to do it, I can not afford to diversify into Oxalic Acid testing also. For the sake of beekeeping, I sincerely hope that others will engage in sertious research in that aspect. Personal opinion is fine but it is only rhetoric. We need serious field engagement in work that leads to protecting our honey bees. We need more concern and some investment from benefactors interested in the well being of beekeeping, nature and humanity in general. 
Happy holidays and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Jorge (Sep 24, 2002)

Hello Normand,

With respect to your latest posting, could you please be more specific about your statement: "Can be applied as soon as there is no more brood." Is this correct? 

This would severely limit the time of application to a few months late in the fall and in the middle of winter. Why is this the case? I thought OA does not make it through wax, so how could this affect brood, unless it can kill the <2 day old uncapped larvae and the eggs, in which case the spring application should be unacceptable.

Thanks

JOrge


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
My apologies for language use errors in my last post to the forum. Although not an excuse, I was writing at 3 AM and I was very tired. I neglected to check my post beforfe sending it. 
Sorry.
Best regards, happy holidays and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Really OA is better discussed under Disease and Pests. I only brought it up as evidence that the either the FGMO was working well or the OA was not because of the low number that the OA was killing.

Having done the OA, I can say it was time consuming. It was no worse than tearing down a tall hive and putting in cords, but it was much more time consuming than fogging FGMO. On the other hand I didn't have to tear down a hive.

OA is a major irritant and breathing it will certainly make you cough for a while. I don't know what the long term effects of it are.

I think OA is really only useful as a fall treatment when there is no brood and no supers on and the bees are flying. Where FGMO can be used anytime the bees are flying.

I think it's apples and oranges to compare them.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
Thanks for your replies regarding Oxalic Acid. I stand reassured about my previous knowledge about OA.
Regarding easiness of application of FGMO.
This year I designed and developed an application for inserting emulsified FGMO-thymol cords into hives without having to remove supers. I have spoken about this development recently during my past tour in the US. The innovation is described fully in an article to be published in ABJ, February issue. I guess it will be just in time for most beekeepers to put it into effect for next season.
Happy holidays and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## cgytm (Aug 14, 2003)

'"Can be applied as soon as there is no more brood." Is this correct? 

This would severely limit the time of application to a few months late in the fall and in the middle of winter. Why is this the case? I thought OA does not make it through wax... 'Jorge

I would say that this is not my opinion but the "traditonal" opinion on OA. Personnally I am not far from thinking that it could be applied year long as residues (proven) do not stay in wax and honey more than 2 weeks. On the other hand, OA, as recommended traditionnaly, is a great complement, at least, to other treatments because of it's "final and overwhelming" efficiency on varroas. 

By the way, there is a lot of time during fall to do the job. We have quite a short fall and we don't need more time than that. There is no way that we can apply treatments of any kind in a day like today where it was, this morning, -22 C... which is about -5 below 0 F. That is really not an issue even in a cold country like Quebec is.

There is no doubt that OA on a year round utilisation would be superior to Thymol for a few reasons as Thymol is considered as producing cummulative residues that stay for long periods of time both in wax and honey. Thymol is also more dangerous to bees. On the other hand, Thymol is surely as dangerous and toxic if not more to people but "look" as being "softer". 

I am not against the usage of Thymol, far from it as it is part of our treatment strategy for some hives... but all this evolves in a direction far from the beginning where oil was the key element. We are now evolving toward a ****tail of many components and oil looks more and more as a non predominant element. As a matter of fact we are now speaking more of a low level permanent Thymol treatment with oil... additives... And cords could evolve to some kind of "pads" or "cakes" made of oil, wax, thymol that would look a lot like traditional Thymol commercial treatment!


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Mite Count w/ FGMO???
posted November 05, 2003 12:58 PM          
---------------------------------------------
Many 'keepers here are using FGMO. . . 
. . . Please share those numbers with us.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hello Everyone,

I'm not sure what effect mineral oil fog has on the lungs, but I'm sure it's not good. Yet, I'm sure it's probably not as bad as hot oxalic vapor. If you're used to sniffing FGMO fumes while treating hives, using oxalic vapor will cure that habit fast and maybe permanently. :> ) That goes for licking fgmo fingers too!

I haven't tried the last couple of iterations of FGMO treatments but did experiment with it back when the discussion first appeared on Bee-L. I dribbled it on the frame top bars and then used a blue paper shop towel saturated with FGMO instead of cords. I eventually added some essential oils to the FGMO.

My experience indicated that the FGMO towel would keep mite populations under control as long as the bees stayed in contact with it. Mite populations would rebound very quickly if circumstances prevented timely refreshing.

I dropped the essential oils as they interferred with queen rearing which was my business at the time. And eventually dropped the FGMO when my small cell tests proved out. Not having to treat is significantly easier and faster than working with any treatment.

But getting bees established on small cell is not exactly easy either. Maybe it will be much easier in the future. Michael, I and others are working on that.

Presently non-contaminating treatments are certainly needed. Dead bees are not much fun. Be safe with any treatment used. All are toxic to some extent or they wouldn't kill the mites. I think dead or sickly beekeepers are worse than dead bees. :> )

Regards
Dennis


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