# Foulbrood spores?



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

For many reasons, both disease and toxin related, i would recommend burning them. A second option which is almost as good would be to boil them in lye water. This has been discussed in other threads. Bjorn and a few other find that they have good success with the lye, but it seems like a lot of trouble, space and time from my vantage.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Solar melter has about 70C temperature and AFB spores stand 120C temp.

If you put them into 3% lye water which is near boiling point, it will make frames like new.

Heat loosens the wax and lye turns it into soap.
But if you boil the water lye will gasify.
.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

One can of lye in a 55 gallon drum 3/4 full of water and heated on a wood fire will take care of this problem. Get it hot but as mentioned above, don't let it boil. Sodium hydroxide ionizes in water very rapidly.

You can usually find lye in the drain cleaner area of most home improvement stores. One brand common in the U.S. is Rooto. Check the label carefully that you are getting pure sodium hydroxide.

Fusion


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
I suppose that dish washer stuff will work as well as normal lye.
.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
I suppose that dish washer stuff will work as well as normal lye.
.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

SORRY AGAIN

I looked dish washer stuff and it has nothing to do with natrium hydrokside (lye). It solves fat and is very alkanic but I do not know the result.
.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

I had one hive this year with AFB. I have changed the way I handle equipment, where I purchase it, etc. While I don't wear any gloves, I now would worry if I did wear good leather gloves that they might possibly get contaminated with the bacterial spores. Wouldn't it be safer to wear throw away latex gloves? Also, how does one clean their hands after coming in contact with a hive with AFB? Or am I too worried?


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
I bought New Zeland AFB handling book but I do not remember how usual way is tools to spread spores.

* The most common way is old honey, when combs have extracted and next summer they are used again. 
* robbing from sick hive
* deviation to nabourg hive 
* sun wax smelter where bees may rob honey droplets
* to feed back cappings
* feed with honey
* give brood frames from sick hive which have spores 

Spores must be quite much before signs are seen with eyes in brood area.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

To Pelonis

After winter, before bees raise brood, shake bees into box. Let them be 2-3 days without food that they consume their food that spores go into feces. After 3 days move bees to clean hive with clean combs. 

Handle with flame hive parts and take off use frames.
.


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## thorbue (Dec 22, 2005)

You has to disinfect before your equipment is safe.
Scorching works, but is unreliable as it doesn't get in to cracks and joints - and there are much better and safer ways.
I would dip in lye or a disinfectant called Virkon-S (check if it would be legal for you...?)
It has been tried by our national bee-health institute (here in Denmark). Correct use is safe to bees, honey and mankind - and it's as effective as lye.

[ December 24, 2006, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: thorbue ]


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

<I would dip in lye or a disinfectant called Virkon-S >

These are different in use. Warm lye dissolves resin and wax and poo , and outer paint too.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You have to decide what you think the risk is and if it's worth it. I would just use them. Some would boil them in lye. Some would scorch them. Some would dunk them in bleach. Do a search on "used equipment" or "AFB" or "lye" and you'll find some statistics on how effective these techniques are on infected equipment.


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## BJ (Sep 11, 2006)

Michael,

I have used some old drawn comb shallows last season (nievely)on each hive. So I guess i may have done harm already.
But after thinking about the used frames I am about to use with new foundation, what is the difference compared to using plastic foundation in a brood box for 5 years, scraping the wax off and then re-installing. Will the bottoms of all those cells not carry more spores than the amount of area that a box and 9 frames would have? 
How would you clean plastic? or do you?

I do plan on scorching the box walls and leaving the frames (scraped down) as is, and then medicate with oxytet in the spring to try and rid any buildup.
Am i destined for problems?


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Virkon-S is effective against ABF spores.
It can be used in combs which have not had brood. 

That is new research from Sweden & Finland. 

You wash combs with Virkon solution and then shake water away. But if you boil plastic in hot lye solution, it will work too. 

I put 100 lye boiled frames into 600 liter water container for diluting the lye. There were 5 small carps in water and fishes were alive after 3 weeks in same water (Carassius carassius http://www.sfca.co.uk/about/cruci400.jpg ). 

It means that boiled and washed frames are not poisonous.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Here is a new AFB doctor research from Sweden 
http://diss-epsilon.slu.se/archive/00001053/01/Avhandling.pdf

Abstract
The distribution of Paenibacillus larvae spores, the causative agent of American foulbrood
was studied on three different levels in the honey bee system; the apiary level, the colony
level and the individual honey bee level. The increased understanding of spore distribution
has been used to give recommendations regarding sampling of adult honey bees. The vertical transmission of P. larvae spores through natural swarms has been described for the first time and artificial swarming as a method for control of American foulbrood have been
evaluated.

The results demonstrated that there is no practical difference in spore load between supers
and brood chambers, and that the spore load in samples of adult honey bees on the different
levels correspond to the clinical disease status of the colony. The study on individual bees
showed that spores are unequally distributed among the bees and that as more bees get
contaminated each positive bee also contains more spores. This may present a problem
when sampling from colonies with low levels of clinical disease, although the study on
colony and apiary level showed no false negatives. A model for calculating the number of
bees that needs to be sampled to detect P. larvae in a composite sample of adult bees, given
certain detection levels and proportions of positive honey bees in the sample, was developed
The swarm study demonstrated vertical transmission of P. larvae spores. Furthermore, the artificial swarm study showed that single and double shaking are equally effective treatment methods, and that the original disease status is of little importance for the spore load
decrease.


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## BJ (Sep 11, 2006)

If i boil them , how long should i boil for?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{Warm lye dissolves resin and wax and poo , and outer paint too.}

Finnman, you're a poet!
Interesting information from Sweden!

It's boiling lye season again? Anyone who has never worked with Lye before keep in mind it absolutely requires protective goggles, heavy rubber gloves and good protection for the body. Lye is extremely caustic, will boil water instantly when added to it (and virtually explodes if water is added to lye). It will quickly blind you and seriously burns flesh on contact. It will cause respitory damage when inhaled and requires a great deal of respect.

Anyone can use it safely as long as they realize the inherrent hazards and take proper precautions. Be Safe!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have used some old drawn comb shallows last season (nievely)on each hive. So I guess i may have done harm already.

Could be. Or there could be no problem.

>How would you clean plastic?

I would guess boiling lye MIGHT work if the plastic doesn't melt.

> or do you?

I don't.

>I do plan on scorching the box walls and leaving the frames (scraped down) as is

It won't hurt.

> and then medicate with oxytet in the spring to try and rid any buildup.

That will hurt. It will merely hide any presence of spores until you quit using it. The spores (if they are there in any significant numbers) last indefinitely. Virtually forever.

>Am i destined for problems?

It all depends. If there was no AFB infestation in the boxes previously, then no, you are not.


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## BJ (Sep 11, 2006)

Fusion mentioned one can of lye to 3/4 drum of water.

How much is one can?

I can get 270gr package(a bit over 1/2 lb) and 3kg package( a bit over 6.5 lbs) at my local hardware store.

How much should i add?

Add lye to cold water heat till slow roll then add frames for a half hour? One hour?

What do i do with the water after?
Can I dump it on the grass?


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
Lye solution should be 3%.
Don't boil it because it causes fumes to respiration. 

I kept frames 10 minutes in liguid. They were in 10 frames buches. I soaked and turned.

You may pour lye liquid into grass and nothing happens. 

50 liter water = 50 000 g.	

3% =	1500 g caustic soda NaOH /50 liter


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## BJ (Sep 11, 2006)

Thanks Finman,

Can i just rinse them off with a hose after?
Will that be enough?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I boiled hundreds of frames in lye. It takes the tank, the boiling time, the re-wiring time, the re-nailing time and you still end up with old used frames. I buy new ones now and only keep the strong, valuable ones, which I hot pressure wash.


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## thorbue (Dec 22, 2005)

> Can i just rinse them off with a hose after?
> Will that be enough?


I normally use a high pressure washer to get rid of wax- and propolis-remains. Be careful not to damage the wood...

[ December 28, 2006, 04:01 AM: Message edited by: thorbue ]


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
Here is book which is worth to read. 
Elimination of American Foulbrood Without the Use of Drugs


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

Finman, Thanks for all the information you provide. I do appreciate it. Can you tell me who the author of the book is? Thanks, Jeff


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Cliff Van Eaton/ Mark Goodwin. Best in depth study on the subject I've seen! You can highlights of it at the New Zealand website. I beleive the book is out of print, you are welcome to borrow mine when we get together for coffee! I acatully downloaded mine from the website in it's entirity when it was 1st. published.

[ December 30, 2006, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
Look articles from New Zealand AFB in right marginal.

http://garnerpark.com/beekeeping.co.nz/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1690

.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I wonder if all the bother to salvage the frames is worth while? By the time you finish cleaning them you would have built the replacements, and they really arent for alot of money,

Unless you know for certain they arnt infected with AFB, then the solar wax melter or a scrape should be all you need.


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