# High humidity and too much unripe honey



## KJUN (May 30, 2016)

Anyone else running TBH in a high humid area with a major honey flow - like tallow in Louisiana?

I run 43" hives (28-29 bars), 19" long bars (about 17" actual comb length), partial screened bottoms, and 9" tall hives. (Length/height are inside dimensions.) Basic design is similar to WAM except 25 degree sides and based on 10" boards. Longer hives would be problematic due to increased board warping (since I use rough cut cypress) and slower comb expansion into hives much over 41 long. Deeper would be problematic use to increased comb weight and board availability. Wider could increase by 1" (inside dimensions), but I want to stick with 19" boards for the Lang compatibility.

I have been back in Louisiana for about 6 years, and I fight the tallow flow in my TBH every year. Too much, too fast, and too high humidity! They fill everything up (including drawing the comb) with unripe honey before they can dry it enough to cap/be harvestable. Grrrr! Every year I split over and over during the flow, shake swarm them, move combs into deep langs for other hives to dry out for me, etc. Work, work, work! Just to stop them from getting honey bound! I plan on increasing my TBH enough to make enough artisan honey for local sales, so these labor intensive techniques designed to REDUCE productivity can't continue.

Soooooo, other than spreading the back couple bars and putting a Lang super on the hives, does anyone have any suggestions for solving this TBH problem in high humidity / high flow areas???

-KJ Lodrigue, Jr.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

I live in Georgia and have the same problem. I tried adding a super to a hive one year, but it was just too much work when I wanted to inspect. I might try this. http://www.motherearthnews.com/home...e-moisture-content-when-harvesting-honey.aspx


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## KJUN (May 30, 2016)

Jon Wolff said:


> I live in Georgia and have the same problem. I tried adding a super to a hive one year, but it was just too much work when I wanted to inspect. I might try this. http://www.motherearthnews.com/home...e-moisture-content-when-harvesting-honey.aspx



Did you super over the rear part of the hive, the brood chamber, or an entire length super? If just over the honey portion, I figured I wouldn't need to inspect very often.

I considered the same thing for monitoring moisture content, but I know this is no where near ready. It still runs out of the comb AND burns the back of my throat. Maybe it is just me, but unripe honey is harsh on the back of my throat. Uncomfortable tingle. Figured it was the higher proportion of H2O2 or something. One day, it would be neat to see at what moisture level it stops being noticeable on the back of my throat. Shrug? (All I know is it keeps me from eating uncapped honey in the field!

KJ


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

Jon Wolff said:


> I might try this. http://www.motherearthnews.com/home...e-moisture-content-when-harvesting-honey.aspx


Wow. That's a cool idea and a great link. Thanks, Jon.

I'm still new... in first year, but I think I'm in a similar spot already. My 4 foot hive is filling up fast, but there is never a whole comb of capped honey to harvest. They capped up until about mid-May, but now all I see is nectar in combs with a thin band of capped honey at the top. I am also in muggy Georgia, although I'm a good bit north of Jon. The idea of sticking 5 or 6 bars into a nuc next to a dehumidifier never occurred to me... it is brilliant.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

if your thanking on a refractometer - e-bay for 20/30 dollars


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## Jonesjungle (Apr 15, 2014)

Because of the heat we have here I keep a ventilation bar as my last bar before the follower board. It is a flat bar the same width as my top bars with 6 or 8 -1/2 in holes drilled through and screen stapled on. The roof ends are also ventilated and can be corked in the winter. They really help with air movement.


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## KJUN (May 30, 2016)

Jonesjungle said:


> Because of the heat we have here I keep a ventilation bar as my last bar before the follower board. It is a flat bar the same width as my top bars with 6 or 8 -1/2 in holes drilled through and screen stapled on. The roof ends are also ventilated and can be corked in the winter. They really help with air movement.


I don't use a dummy board since it is just another piece of equipment to drag along, but I could use a ventilation top bar as my last once since we are having the problems with FULL hives. However, I run screen bottoms that range from 10" to 24" (depending on the hive and what I felt like trying at the time it was built.) Since you have used them, *do you think a ventilation top bar would really make much of a difference with this large of a fully opened screen bottom?* If you do, I might give it a try. 

Honestly, I am not sure there is an answer. We are running 90+F in the day with 90% rh and 80F with over 50% rh at night. The bees don't have much to work with. The air they bring in is wet and they don't get the warm it up much to dry it that way. Shrug? 

I suspect any real solution is going to have to be a management solution - not an equipment solution. So far, it just looks like I will have to manage to keep the colonies somewhat weak. Shrug? Anyone looking to buy booster packages in the future? LOL.
KJ


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

KJUN - ever dry the honey after taking it off the bees? - Put it in a room with a fan blowing over it - in the room have a couple of dehumidifiers - depending on how much honey you have - this will dry it back to where you need it. I use a sea can 20' long - after 4/5 days - its dry to 18% from 19.5


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## KJUN (May 30, 2016)

sakhoney said:


> KJUN - ever dry the honey after taking it off the bees? - Put it in a room with a fan blowing over it - in the room have a couple of dehumidifiers - depending on how much honey you have - this will dry it back to where you need it. I use a sea can 20' long - after 4/5 days - its dry to 18% from 19.5


Right now, I have about 20 TBH. Once they are all rocking and rolling, I'd probably be looking at ~200 frames al about the same time to dry that way. I'd need to convert a closet with hanging racks to try this. That MIGHT be a way to go (good idea!), but I would like to run closer to 100 TBH if I can get this figured out. (My main goal is artisan/varietal honey out of TBH to catch the minor flows before tallow.) *It would not bother me personally*, but I might lose customers (or a few dollars per pound) since too many "yuppies" might feel like it is not real "honey" if the bees don't finish it themselves. Shrug? Of course, I could just wholesale the tallow honey dried that way since the bees are better at drying the slower flows themselves.

That may be something to consider. Build racks to hang frames all along the walls with a light for a little controlled warmth, a dehumidifier, and fans. Not worth it for a few frames, but if I can use it as a warming room for my lang boxes prior to extraction...well, I could make it worth it.

Thank you!
KJ


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

are you extracting the honey? if so dry it in the liquid form - a dryer is ez made


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Bored a hole in the follower board. Screened it and bored a second hole on the back end of the hive so that the bees can get a cross-flow going. Not in the deep south. Sort of expected the bees to propolize the hole but they never did so it must be working well for them.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

I'm not to that point yet but have wondered the same thing. Could reduced ventilation be the answer to getting the honey cured in the hive? Obviously if the air being pulled in is far above 20% humidity that in itself creates an impossible scenario but if the bees can control incoming air somewhat


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

I made one to fit the length of the hive. The bees built nice fat combs but didn't fill them. When I lifted the super the first time after the combs were built, I found they'd attached to the bars below and I was pulling them out as well. I found that I could run a fine wire between the super and the hive to cut the combs, but the first time I aligned it parallel to the direction of the bars and cut some bees in half as I moved the wire from side to side. After that I aligned it perpendicular and didn't have that problem as I was moving the wire from front to back (my bars had spacers like lang frames to allow the bees to move up and down between them). 


KJUN said:


> Did you super over the rear part of the hive, the brood chamber, or an entire length super? If just over the honey portion, I figured I wouldn't need to inspect very often.
> KJ


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

Remove one top bar in the rear??? I have a half inch spacer bar on either end that I can remove to increase air flow.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

I've tried screened bottoms but with our high humidity it doesn't work and it gave pests, especially hive beetles, too much opportunity, so I pulled off the screens and went with solid bottoms. I use a ventilation bar at the back of the hive, but only pull corks when I see bearding; otherwise I only leave one hole open (sometimes I'll close it up altogether, although in winter I reduce the space with a follower board and move the bar closer and open at least two holes). The only year I had all combs capped in a reasonable time frame was when I experimented with a smaller hive (only 22 bars). That was also the one I tried supering. I suspect that even with no screened bottom, the volume of the larger hives makes finishing the honey more difficult in very humid climates. I'm thinking that another solution is to have "finishing" hives like my smaller one where I put the honey to be finished and pull excess brood created in those hives and place them in the other hives.


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## KJUN (May 30, 2016)

dtrooster said:


> I'm not to that point yet but have wondered the same thing. Could reduced ventilation be the answer to getting the honey cured in the hive? Obviously if the air being pulled in is far above 20% humidity that in itself creates an impossible scenario but if the bees can control incoming air somewhat


My gut says no. If you crunch the numbers, raising the temp a few degrees doesn't lower the rh that much. So, reduced air flow doesn't really allow them to control the humidity that much. It can't be lowered by raising the temp when the rh and temp are both already high. Shrug? Either way, the aerial mosquito sprayers over most of south LA makes reduced ventilation a bad idea in my experience. Reduced ventilation = more bearding = more dead bees come a flight spray! The main reason I have screened bottom boards is to reduce bearding (and mosquito related kills) by allowing internal ventilation instead of external ventilation. Shrug?

The top bar ventilation might help as long as it is under a protective cover. I might try that one a couple hives. (Thanks to those posters for the suggestion.) I don't think it will help since I already have a lot of ventilation, but I am willing to try anything reasonable that won't obvious hurt more bees!

I'm less concerned this year. I just reduced everything so much that they can't fill the box by the end of this flow now.  (For example, once colony got a 50% "walk away split" followed by a removal of a couple combs of brood for some recently captured swarms and 6 frames for a triple queen castle - where the second culling came from the colony that kept the foragers following the 50% split.....LOL, those girls have some ground to catch up now!)

KJ


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## KJUN (May 30, 2016)

Jon Wolff said:


> I made one to fit the length of the hive. The bees built nice fat combs but didn't fill them. When I lifted the super the first time after the combs were built, I found they'd attached to the bars below and I was pulling them out as well. I found that I could run a fine wire between the super and the hive to cut the combs, but the first time I aligned it parallel to the direction of the bars and cut some bees in half as I moved the wire from side to side. After that I aligned it perpendicular and didn't have that problem as I was moving the wire from front to back (my bars had spacers like lang frames to allow the bees to move up and down between them).


I use top bars in all my swarm traps. If they move into a square one and I don't move them out soon enough to fit in my TBH, they just go into a lang box and get managed like a Warre hive until I get them to take over enough frames to be able to discard the frameless top bar combs. Sooooo, I see exactly what you describe a lot, but in different hives. I just slide my hive tool all the way in between boxes and life up a little. I do this all along one edge. That separates the top combs from the bottom so I canlift off the top box. For me, it is a lot faster than finding, using, and picking up the string.


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## KJUN (May 30, 2016)

How did the screen bottoms give beetles additional opportunity?

Your finishing hive idea is what I have done in the past. I moved them into deep boxes and sat them on top of a lang hive until finished. I finally cut down the last of my deeps, so that is no longer an option. (Plus, I am getting too many to want to bother with this way.)

I don't worry about winter too much here. Half of the time, I even forget to close them until it is time to open them again. sigh......







Jon Wolff said:


> I've tried screened bottoms but with our high humidity it doesn't work and it gave pests, especially hive beetles, too much opportunity, so I pulled off the screens and went with solid bottoms. I use a ventilation bar at the back of the hive, but only pull corks when I see bearding; otherwise I only leave one hole open (sometimes I'll close it up altogether, although in winter I reduce the space with a follower board and move the bar closer and open at least two holes). The only year I had all combs capped in a reasonable time frame was when I experimented with a smaller hive (only 22 bars). That was also the one I tried supering. I suspect that even with no screened bottom, the volume of the larger hives makes finishing the honey more difficult in very humid climates. I'm thinking that another solution is to have "finishing" hives like my smaller one where I put the honey to be finished and pull excess brood created in those hives and place them in the other hives.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

KJUN said:


> How did the screen bottoms give beetles additional opportunity?


In a couple of ways. The screen I used wasn't tight enough to keep some of the beetles from squeezing through, especially the smaller males, so they could enter unchallenged. Also, they could hang out below the screen safely out of reach of the bees. Now they must come through the entrance, where guards will challenge them, and usually chase them into one of the traps, usually the first one just inside the entrance, which will often end up with dozens before I change it out.


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## dcnylund (May 28, 2015)

Jon Wolff said:


> I've tried screened bottoms but with our high humidity it doesn't work and it gave pests, especially hive beetles, too much opportunity, so I pulled off the screens and went with solid bottoms. I use a ventilation bar at the back of the hive, but only pull corks when I see bearding; otherwise I only leave one hole open (sometimes I'll close it up altogether, although in winter I reduce the space with a follower board and move the bar closer and open at least two holes). The only year I had all combs capped in a reasonable time frame was when I experimented with a smaller hive (only 22 bars). That was also the one I tried supering. I suspect that even with no screened bottom, the volume of the larger hives makes finishing the honey more difficult in very humid climates. I'm thinking that another solution is to have "finishing" hives like my smaller one where I put the honey to be finished and pull excess brood created in those hives and place them in the other hives.


Hi Jon. The finisher hive idea is interesting. How would you set it up? How many combs brood vs. nectar/honey would be a good ratio? I have a 2 foot hive that I use as an extended nuc. Do you think that might work? I started last year, and was frustrated this year when the bees would left large portions of the honeycomb uncapped. Now it seems that the main flow is over and I don't have much to show for it. Would robbing be an issue?


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

I've dried honey in the house. It's sort of complicated but will try to explain.
I set four pieces of lumber on the floor. (jacked the corners of the bottom super up by placing short boards at the corners at a diagonal) 
Above that I have a super with screened bottom. (keeps the dog hairs and what not out)
Stacked honey supers above the screened one with a fan on top arranged to where it pulls air up thru the stack. House is air conditioned. 
Test with a refractometer regularly and extracted when it was dry enough. 

Clover honey will burn the back of your throat and sometimes gets capped at a higher moisture content than other varieties.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

Those are good questions. I haven't actually done it yet but I know others have, as KJUN mentioned earlier. I know shorter hives will get crowded quickly, so pulling brood and dispensing it among other hives would be necessary, but I couldn't give you a ratio. During a heavy flow I doubt there would be a problem with robbing, but with the flow over, and with a smaller population in the hive, periscope entrances or robbing screens might be needed.


dcnylund said:


> Hi Jon. The finisher hive idea is interesting. How would you set it up? How many combs brood vs. nectar/honey would be a good ratio? I have a 2 foot hive that I use as an extended nuc. Do you think that might work? I started last year, and was frustrated this year when the bees would left large portions of the honeycomb uncapped. Now it seems that the main flow is over and I don't have much to show for it. Would robbing be an issue?


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