# January 1st, 2017



## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

When you will then be required to find a vet to give you a prescription for terramycin or tylan.

I had an incident this year and last with efb and took care of it this year using oxytetracycline. I don't plan on getting more exposure to efb or afb, but in reality what's a person going to do when they get it?

Do you think a vet is going to keep a suit handy to come diagnose your hive?

Me thinks i need to stock up. Imagine a commercial operation suffering from efb. They have to wait for a prescription for it before being able to treat their hives. All the while they are dwindling away. I just think i see a disaster in the horizon with this becoming law 1st of the year. 

I guess it'll really become a defining time when the fittest will survive...


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

oxytetracycline in the freezer lasts a really long time.
also was at a seminar yesterday where it was announced that the owner of better bee(he is a vet) is setting up a list of vets that are bee "trained" and will visit hives, I didn't copy down the link, will see if some one will give it to me today.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Where I am at, a Vet could charge upwards of $90 for a 5 minute check on the dog in their office. I can't imagine what they would charge for a hive visit, if anyone has time to do . Hope they let the bee inspector write the prescription.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

In many places I don't think one could find a Vet that knew what the inside of a hive looked like.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Lots of places have no bee inspector system these days as many Apiculture departments were de-funded. When there is a bee inspector network, their time is pretty much focused on the commercial operations...the smaller apiaries and hobby apiaries are on their own. If the backyard beekeepers and hobby beekeepers are left to fend for themselves, with not even easy access to meds when they need it, I would expect more issues with AFB and EFB treated poorly or too late.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

I am a veterinarian....really, it's not big deal. The laws aren't in place for beekeeper's but big livestock producers who acted irresponsible with available antibiotics. As a veterinarian, I'd have absolutely no problem giving an antibiotic that has a bee label on it to a bee keeper to treat there hive, especially if The said beekeeper was someone in my community that I knew or maybe had a dog or horse that I also treated. If you have absolutely no relationship with a veterinarian there's nothing wrong with going into the office introducing yourself (with the jar of honey) and asking if you could get anabiotic if the problem arose or what it would take for them to order it for you. These meds are not expensive and they're used in poultry, cattle and hogs on a daily basis, we don't even have to order it, we keep it ample supply on our shelf. Most vets are pretty good people, we do not make $$ in our profession; it is a labor of love, not something we do to get rich. There are no subsidies, very little insurance, extremely high overhead, and student loans that are outrageous. (I'm 15 years out of school and have 15 more years worth of student loans to pay.). The big thing is, people are just not going to be able to order antibiotics out of the catalog. And I think that's an OK.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

This is certainly not meant as a vet-bashing! I am very sympathetic to the plight of vets, both financial and the position they have been put in. But I have to confess, as an enthusiastic hobbyist who does not move hives around, I am really unhappy about the commercial business model of the mobile operations and how the rest of us all have to take yet another hit because their business model demands they medicate prophylactically and off-label, driving resistance in pests and diseases.

In my locale, our town is surrounded by blueberry fields. This year's unusually hot and dry weather meant the blackberries (our big local nectar flow) and the blueberries bloomed at the same time, meaning we had big competition for the thin local nectars from the hundreds of hives that land in the blueberries. Along with their super pests and diseases, those bees are roaming far and wide looking for forage, and drifting as well. EFB has been found to be vectored by Varroa, and I am betting AFB is too. So I am not happy with the local pollination operators who stand up in front of audiences and talk about their practices...oxytet all year in the feed, and Apivar left on the hives all year as well, incredibly high losses barely compensated for by constant splitting. They need to minimize their labour costs and off label meds is part of how they do that.

So it is a bit of an insult on insult to now find that as well as dealing with the bee health blowback issues driven by at least some commercial operations, who will still manage to get the stuff they need and keep using it as they always have, I will now have extra hurdles to get meds when I need them.

Silver lining is: this has all made me a better beekeeper. I work hard to keep my colonies strong and healthy, much harder than I did at the beginning of my bee career.


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

Non issue as far as I am concerned.

As a 20+ year non-migratory beekeeper with anywhere from 1 to 135 hives at any given time, I have NEVER had a single case of either EFB or AFB. 

I may stock up on some antibiotics as insurance, because, hey, one never knows when a commercial beekeeper may set some infected hives down near me, and the stuff will keep for years in the freezer. But, I really don't foresee it becoming a problem for me.

As a backup, lol, I do have a good friend who is a vet who trusts us implicitly when it comes to asking for meds for our animals without having to drag them in for an exam every time they need some relatively minor intervention. (I used to work for her, so she knows that, while I am not a vet by any stretch of the imagination, I do have some experience and can recognize simple ailments).

If I did not have that relationship with her, I would be looking for a vet who would be willing to work with me if needed.


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## Pinchecharlie (May 14, 2014)

So because Iam uninformed, no more antibiotics in the farm store after the first? Is this by state or national law ? That makes it a lot harder for small livestock guys more than beekeepers.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

WesternWilson said:


> This is certainly not meant as a vet-bashing! I am very sympathetic to the plight of vets, both financial and the position they have been put in. But I have to confess, as an enthusiastic hobbyist who does not move hives around....


 no worries, not taking as bashing. Just trying to say but I think vets are more accessible/approachable....just gotta ask.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

Pinchecharlie said:


> So because Iam uninformed, no more antibiotics in the farm store after the first? Is this by state or national law ? That makes it a lot harder for small livestock guys more than beekeepers.


No feed grade.....like oxytet granules.....all feed and water administered medications are now prescriptions (like most of our injectables). In the past if you wanted to put Aureo crumbles (for example) in your grain mix you could just have the Feedmill add it or buy a bag And mix it yourself. Now you will need a prescription sent to the feedmill. Technically Tylan and Oxytet are feed additives. It's not gonna be a whole lot different than having to have a prescription to buy a bottle of baytril or exceed or whatever anabiotic you're using, now you just need a prescription for the Feedmill to put in drugs in your feed. The feedmill will have to keep detailed records. Really, it's not a bad thing and it's not a big deal since that's how we've done the injectable antibiotics for years. It should've been put in place years ago. Whose idea was it that it was OK for farmers to choose when and what they put antibiotics in the feed or water? It will lead to much more responsible antibiotic use.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Hey all - I done a quick Google search for this info and found nothing - anybody got a link about this new law that you can post?


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

sakhoney said:


> Hey all - I done a quick Google search for this info and found nothing - anybody got a link about this new law that you can post?


http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/DevelopmentApprovalProcess/ucm482107.htm


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

thanks Daisy
SAK


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

twgun1 said:


> no worries, not taking as bashing. Just trying to say but I think vets are more accessible/approachable....just gotta ask.


My experience is that rural vets are lot more open to this type, specially when everyone in the town knows everyone else. 

But the urban ones, not much. Vets in my neck of urban buildings has become like any other business. I feel like prices they are charging are more for the decorated offices, computerized systems, 10 individual "patient rooms" and super friendly atmosphere. 

On one occasion, we paid more to a vet for dressing up a cut than what our insurance paid to put stitches on kids finger. Had to go back to remove the dressing and got estimate close to $700 as the wound didnt heal and they recommended couple of stitches (estimated as <10 min work). Drove our dog couple of hours to a rural vet for second opinion. Doc gives it to me straight, tells me no use to do stitches (after 10 days) and dresses the wound again. Guess what the bill was - one fourth of the what the urban vet charged me for the first dressing. And the doc took time to explain things in the middle of their very busy surgery day. Now, thats a great service. 

Everyone is entitled to make profit as they see fit, but in an environment where liability and profits come first, regulation such as this will only burden more people. Ofcourse, we dig our grave by abusing the antibiotics to being with. 

We have chickens and this year bees, never used antibiotics on chicken, but atleast knew to keep on hand should something disastrous struck.


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## Zephyr (May 4, 2016)

Well it keeps looking like I'll never have a shortage of work. I'm still just pre-vet but if I need certification as a bee vet... At least it looks good on my resume & I've an early start! Of all the un-licensed/trained people, I feel like beekeepers are one of the most trustworthy with drugs. Most keep part of their crop to eat themselves so if they whouldnt eat it, they probably wont sell it (feed back to hives instead). The keeper is still alive and fine so the honey is good. I just hope these drug laws dont get any more ridiculous to sate the city crowds who dont know what the H they are talking about :/


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Zephyr said:


> Well it keeps looking like I'll never have a shortage of work. I'm still just pre-vet but if I need certification as a bee vet... At least it looks good on my resume & I've an early start! Of all the un-licensed/trained people, I feel like beekeepers are one of the most trustworthy with drugs. Most keep part of their crop to eat themselves so if they whouldnt eat it, they probably wont sell it (feed back to hives instead). The keeper is still alive and fine so the honey is good. I just hope these drug laws dont get any more ridiculous to sate the city crowds who dont know what the H they are talking about :/


You just haven't found the right beekeeper to make you feel otherwise. We have one commercial beekeeper that I know of in our area. He sells lots and lots of package bees and queens. He also has started making his own hive parts to sell. He is making hives out of spruce lumber to sell to new beekeepers that don't know better.

I got in a tight for a queen early this spring and had no other option than to buy one from him. He told me if I would give my hives antibiotics every month like he did all of his I wouldn't be buying queens. His words, not mine.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Every month???


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I knew that the eight years of college....4 years undergrad plus 4 years vet school.... for my daughter would pay off one day. Hmmmm...now that I think about it.......it's going to take a load of terramycin to balance that out.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

wildbranch2007 said:


> oxytetracycline in the freezer lasts a really long time.
> also was at a seminar yesterday where it was announced that the owner of better bee(he is a vet) is setting up a list of vets that are bee "trained" and will visit hives, I didn't copy down the link, will see if some one will give it to me today.


www.beevets.com

well it may not bee ready yet, tried it and not sure what I got.


I'm sure if you really want it, alibaba can find it for you, not sure of the quality though, update us on how your bees make out. :lookout:


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

WesternWilson said:


> This is certainly not meant as a vet-bashing! I am very sympathetic to the plight of vets, both financial and the position they have been put in. But I have to confess, as an enthusiastic hobbyist who does not move hives around, I am really unhappy about the commercial business model of the mobile operations and how the rest of us all have to take yet another hit because their business model demands they medicate prophylactically and off-label, driving resistance in pests and diseases.
> 
> In my locale, our town is surrounded by blueberry fields. This year's unusually hot and dry weather meant the blackberries (our big local nectar flow) and the blueberries bloomed at the same time, meaning we had big competition for the thin local nectars from the hundreds of hives that land in the blueberries. Along with their super pests and diseases, those bees are roaming far and wide looking for forage, and drifting as well. EFB has been found to be vectored by Varroa, and I am betting AFB is too. So I am not happy with the local pollination operators who stand up in front of audiences and talk about their practices...oxytet all year in the feed, and Apivar left on the hives all year as well, incredibly high losses barely compensated for by constant splitting. They need to minimize their labour costs and off label meds is part of how they do that.
> 
> ...


Vets good, commercial beekeepers bad, got it.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I have nothing against vets but also think that some rules when dealing with animals that "make" you go to a vet and get a perscription is just a organizing tactic to garrentee buisness for the vet profession. Thats why I break the law and order heart worm medicine for my dog of the internet from canada. If I didn't have that option and or if my wife didn't make me, the dog would have to take his chances with out it. I grew up on a small 80 acre farm and we called the vet here and there but mostly did it on our own when we could. We butchered our own stuff and if a bull got mean, it was gone. 

It is sorta like not letting anyone ride in the back of a pickup. We had five poeple in our family and though not poor, we couldn't take two cars every where we wanted to go. It was a differrent time and though some poeple have probly been helped by stupid rules, for the ones that didn't get hurt under the way things used to be, things have gotten harder. I understand about over medicating but also believe that most poeple don't over medicate when not needed due to it costing more to do so. 

So I can starve my bees to death, put soap and water on them, but can't try and medicate them unless I ask some body for permission.

I don't know the actual quote but ben franklin said something along the lines that the govenment that he feared most was the one that was going to make him safe from hisself. I pretty much agree with this and also think that lots of rule passed are to keep the poeple already in the buiness as the only ones in that buisness cause nobody else can startup due to the regulations. 

My daughter is an eye doctor and so I don't want to discount the cost and effort to become a vet but I still want to do what I want to do when I want to do it.
Just my thoughts.
gww


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

everyone can complain about this all they want, but this is one of those things brought on by misuse of the chemicals by us and everyone else. Somewhere back in 2008 I read a paper that is no longer available to me. the USDA was testing out and calibrating some new equipment for testing honey. They went to supermarkets, local retailers and other outlets that sold honey and bought some, ran it through the testing equipment and found just about every known antibiotic including the ones that are only to be used when resistance is found in humans. The legal ones were found at higher levels than allowed, and the rest aren't even allowed. Now that we have shot our selves in the foot, don't blame the vets, but next year and each and every following year I would be very leary where I buy my nucs/packages/queens, it would seem to be a good time to raise your own. If I remember correctly only two samples were found free of antibiotics. But now on the plus side, there is no legal level of any antibiotics legal in honey after 1/1/17, so I would guess that the packers will have to test for it, and if found what happens to the honey, now if the person selling the honey has a perscription? can the honey have residue of antibiotics? Will this affect imports, I assume the chinese ultra filtering would filter it out? If I sold honey to packers, the first thing I would do each year is get a hold of vet and get a new prescription so I could sell my honey later in the year. our market economy working at it's finest. :thumbsup:

I have access to the article but can't copy parts in here but here is the name of the article maybe you can find a copy, under header matrix affect it references the 15 bought honeys and 3 were chemical free.

Multiclass determination and confirmation of antibiotics in honey using LC-MS/MS Journal of agriculture and food chemistry 2008, 56 ,1553-1559

isn't the internet wonderful, now you know why they are taking useful chemicals to some of us away, and the abusers will spend the money to get a prescription and go happily along there way.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Propolis is found in honey and there are natural antibiotics in propolis. This means there is no such thing as honey without antibiotics. 
Not going to search very hard for a real good source but here's one. 
http://saveourbones.com/propolis-a-natural-antibiotic-thats-good-for-your-bones/


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

@gww, right on. I am going to put my neck out and say, more, if not most, antibiotic abuse is done through prescription. Not long ago, when our kids were little, we had to ask doc not to prescribe too much antibiotics. I dont blame them, because of liability and parental pressure for quick recoveries, they have to worry about. So, legislature doesn't fix things. 

Assuming, somehow, this is good for beekeepers and beek, first you got to find a local vet, who has knowledge, come visit the hive, diagnose the problem and then prescribe. Thats not going to be cheap anyway you look at it. Any vet who hands a prescription pad without checking is violating federal regulations. So thats out the door. No way a backyard beek with couple of hives can afford to pay upwards of $100 or more for each visit and more for prescription.

So little guys is either going to let the bees die, burn or worse, leave it along and let it spread.


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## cowdoc (May 15, 2011)

I am the one that is setting up the BeeVets.com website, and will say I have a bug that I cannot fix until I am home, so hopefully by Wednesday it will be working.

I am now in Texas at the American Veterinary Medical Association meeting. This is the national group for veterinarians. I talked about the changes coming in antibiotic labeling and the need of beekeepers to get a veterinarian, and I can assure you there are veterinarians that are interested in getting set up to be able to provide the service needed, but few who really want to do it. They are as taken back at the FDA rules as most of the beekeepers I talk to. You might think this is the vets getting together trying to make work, but I assure that is not the case. 

The purpose of the FDA rule change is to preserve the ability of the antibiotics that are medically important to people to work when people are sick. Every time bacteria are exposed to the antibiotics, the bacteria with resistance may be more apt to pass on their genes that allow the resistance. The resistance can pass between bacteria species, not only to the same species. Honey bees were not the target of this plan and are considered Minor Species which follow along what is established for cattle and hogs and poultry. Other species are affected also like fish. The resistant bacteria that is created by feeding tetracycline to bees could pass those genes on to the bacteria that the visitor to the hospital brings to the kid that is sick that then dies of an infection with a bacteria resistant to antibiotics. The FDA is looking to set up rules so antibiotics are used in a prudent way so they work longer for everyone. So, you may want to treat what you want when you want how you want, but that is not acceptable to the people that have to watch out for the health of everyone. Those treatments could affect a lot of other people, so the ability to do that is going to be controlled. 

I had a talk with an FDA person that is working on the regulations and rules that the FDA writes. As the FDA learns more, the rules may change. At this point, they have a good idea that they are working on implementing (ensure antibiotic use is appropriate), and they are not looking to stop beekeeping or any other industry. Rather, they are working on education of the rules and are very open to changing parts of the rules to make sure they do not stifle all business. Prescription permissions are regulated by the state veterinary boards, not the FDA, but I can virtually guarantee that the bee inspectors will not be given prescribing power unless they have completed veterinary school. 

The wholesale feeding of antibiotics because that is what we do will stop or will go underground. As I write this, I am looking at an ad for Randox on the sidebar. If the FDA thinks honey is a high risk food for antibiotic residues, they will do a lot more antibiotic testing. If the public finds out they think that, our honey market will evaporate. Remember Alar and apples? A lot of people went out of business as those markets dried up until the industry was cleared up. 

As the directory of veterinarians that are interested in bees grows, I am also going to work on setting up a group to coordinate continuing education for veterinarians and to come up with prudent antibiotic use that beekeepers should be allowed to do. If you want to send me information for that discussion, I would love to have it. By providing definitions now, we may be able to affect what the FDA sees as normal and allowable use of antibiotics in honey bees. 

Chris Cripps, DVM
[email protected]
Greenwich, NY


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Sunday Farmer said:


> Every month???


That's what he said. His actual exact quote was, "if you'd give your bees antibiotics every month like I do, you wouldn't be in here buying a queen." He knows I don't like him and the times I have been I have vowed to not go back. If not for a dismal winter with way too many losses, I wouldn't have gone back. I have my ducks in a row now and hope that I never have to darken the door of his place again. 

Its not just his stance on antibiotics that I have exceptions with. It's his entire business philosophy. I bought my first bees from him and the relationship went downhill from there.


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## pinkpantherbeekeeper (Feb 10, 2016)

Good thread with good info. Will keep reading!



Brad Bee said:


> That's what he said. His actual exact quote was, "if you'd give your bees antibiotics every month like I do, you wouldn't be in here buying a queen." He knows I don't like him and the times I have been I have vowed to not go back. If not for a dismal winter with way too many losses, I wouldn't have gone back. I have my ducks in a row now and hope that I never have to darken the door of his place again.
> 
> Its not just his stance on antibiotics that I have exceptions with. It's his entire business philosophy. I bought my first bees from him and the relationship went downhill from there.


This is one prime example of just because someone is in business or has "years" of experience, doesn't mean its always right. What was common practice twenty years ago in any industry, doesn't mean it still applies today. However I think more often than not, there is much to be learned from "years" of experience.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

cowdoc said:


> I am the one that is setting up the BeeVets.com website, and will say I have a bug that I cannot fix until I am home, so hopefully by Wednesday it will be working.
> 
> .....but I can virtually guarantee that the* bee inspectors will not be given prescribing power* unless they have completed veterinary school. ......
> Chris Cripps, DVM
> ...


Chris, thank you for taking interesting in this and working towards solutions. In NJ atleast, state apiarist is authorized to diagnose bee deceases, order remediation, quarantine or even penalties. I wonder why then they will not be allowed to prescribe the said antibiotics for the specific purpose. 

I certainly hope this doesnt come down to a situation where backyard keepers now have to deal with state on one side for decease control and cost of vets on the other side.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> Vets good, commercial beekeepers bad, got it.


There is no good or bad here, just what works best for the long term health of bees. In the beekeeping world, beekeepers with different objectives are working against each other: that is regrettable and should stop. Add on to that the fact that farmers and beekeepers are at odds as well....and now we have to find vets who will deal with our medication requests without a lot of expense, particularly in the many jurisdictions where there are no state apiarists or no time for seeing all the beekeepers who need inspection.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The way I'm interpreting this is that the gubment has installed a bottleneck in the system that's meant to be applied to farmers who abuse antibiotics and have unwittingly snared the beekeepers in the same net. 

I call the inspector who comes and inspects and then he tells me to call the vet who schedules an appointment at their earliest convenience which might be days, weeks, or months and that's only if I can find a vet who does bees. It's tempting to call my dog's vet and say I have a problem and let her do the talking and when she asks "how is Milo (my dog) doing?" I'll say it's not the dog and I'd like you to do a house-call checkup on a colony of apis melifera. (honey bees) 
I'd bet that that's about the time my vet tells me to find another vet. Either that or her calculator broke trying to figure out how much to charge me.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Don't have to look far at all to find an example of two govt. agencies disagreeing about "what to do with them bees". 
Urbana, Illinois has very strict ordinance prohibiting all fires. Try and have a little fire in the back yard and see how it goes. 

Suppose a beekeeper in Urbana has the state inspector order him to abate (burn) his colonies. 
The EPA and City of Urbana would be standing there with ticket books ready and the state guy would be standing opposite them telling the beek to hurry up and light the match. I have a couple beek friends in Urbana and I fear for them if they ever get an order to abate. 
If I ever get an abatement order I'll pour the diesel fuel and the inspector is lighting that match or it ain't happening. 

Slightly off topic but demonstrates how the bee world is sort of a side issue in the grand scheme of government.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

^^^ Looks like the gubment is working as designed


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

aunt betty said:


> The way I'm interpreting this is that the gubment has installed a bottleneck in the system that's meant to be applied to farmers who abuse antibiotics and have unwittingly snared the beekeepers in the same net.


Exactly, with the added point that some big commercial bee operations, medicating constantly to reduce labour costs, are also the target of these regulations. In casting the net wide to make a point, smaller and stationary beekeepers are being impacted.

On the burn problem, locally we can bag equipment and take it to the local landfill, with a request it be put in the incineration pile. No need to do it in the back field.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Local landfill is in another county (two counties west) and would require a permit to transport. Another bottleneck. 

My issue with local regulations is that the people making them are not beekeepers and have absolutely no clue what they are regulating. (none at all) 
Call the City of Champaign here sometime and talk to the lady they send you to when you ask about beekeeping. You'll see what I mean instantly.

To get this back on topic (sorry) I'll say that around Christmas I'll go buy a 50# bag of the stuff they're making so hard for me to get next year. Fifty pounds should last me the rest of my life. If that don;t work I'll call my friend Jeffy the hog and cattle farmer and have him send me a bag. I bet he'll buy a few tons.


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