# rethinking bee nutrition



## jim lyon

Well I do a lot of feeding and I, in fact, have quite a few hives that have derived as much as 90% of their carbohydrates from corn syrup since last fall. My take is that, yeah, it does the job but there is a cost in "wear and tear" on the bees to constantly cleaning out feeders. In addition to be most effective it has to be fed early enough in the fall so that the bees have a chance to properly cure it and orient it in the hive. I think for those reasons alone that bees will winter a bit better on most honeys though with different honeys (such as those that granulate rock hard) you may see different results.


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## Keith Jarrett

squarepeg said:


> i have come to understand that those vital nutrients for longevity and immunity come primarily from pollen.
> 
> this may explain why those who supplement with protein patties in the fall are having better wintering success.


SP, your killing me. lol


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## robherc

Also, just a note, don't forget that there actually IS an amount (however small) of pollen in the honey; not to mention of honey in the bee's stored pollen (bee bread). So, in a "natural" setting, what they get from either of honey/pollen, they get from both, just in different concentrations.

That said, if a hive is hungry, feed them! Better to have a slightly weaker immune system than die of starvation.


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## squarepeg

according to the article the really good stuff that promotes immunity and longevity (vitellogenin) is stored within the bees themselves, and it takes a long time to build up those stores.


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## squarepeg

jim, are you using patties in the fall? and if so, about when do you put them on?


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## jim lyon

squarepeg said:


> jim, are you using patties in the fall? and if so, about when do you put them on?


No, tried it once but decided it was counter productive to the brood break that we like to get plus had some issues with shb. If you really want to build big hives, though, fall is the time to be pushing the sub to them. Two different approaches for sure, in recent years we have been getting 2/3rds to 3/4ths of our bees to grade out for almond pollination and thats good enough for me. Many "California guys" like Keith are no doubt doing better than 100% with a good sub program but probably have to work a little harder on mite control. I know one excellant northern beekeeper that got about 110% of his fall numbers to grade out last year.


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## Brad Bee

So after reading that article.......newbee question here, would it be beneficial if you trap pollen during the spring and feed it to the hive late autumn to boost winter survival rates?


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## squarepeg

understood, many thanks jim.

we have a bimodal flow here. the big one from late winter through early summer, and the smaller one from late summer into fall.

i thought i was doing alright by leaving enough honey to get them through the summer nectar dearth, but i hadn't given much thought to the fact that there is a pollen dearth as well.

the fall forage isn't multifloral as the spring forage, with almost all of the pollen that i see being brought in from goldenrod. i am wondering if it would help to supplement through the summer with a well rounded source of amino acids in order to get them strong with vitellogenin in preparation for the fall brood up of the long-lived overwintering bees,

especially since i am not treating for mites, and the bees are relying on natural immunity for the viruses.


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## squarepeg

Brad Bee said:


> So after reading that article.......newbee question here, would it be beneficial if you trap pollen during the spring and feed it to the hive late autumn to boost winter survival rates?


good thought brad. i think the problem oliver mentions with that is that it pollen loses its freshness quickly unless you ferment it or something like that.


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## robherc

squarepeg said:


> ...pollen loses its freshness quickly unless you ferment it or something like that.


Exactly what I've heard/found. While "bee bread" pollen may last nearly indefinitely, "fresh" pollen right from the girls' legs doesn't seem to store well at all; maybe if you deep-froze it though.....idk


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## Keith Jarrett

Feeding back pollen is the fastest way to spread unwanted pest, the best way is to find a good pollen supplement.


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## squarepeg

Keith Jarrett said:


> Feeding back pollen is the fastest way to spread unwanted pest, the best way is to find a good pollen supplement.


what do you recommend for the hobbiest with just a few hives keith?


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## wcubed

Not to cut in on your business, Kieth, but my answer is "none of the above."
From 2000 to 2005, we applied the pollen box maneuver in the spring build up period. We got reliable wintering - almost guarenteed. Simple procedure - when the first shallow above the single deep was basically filled with expansion brood, it was placed below the deep. In the buildup, when pollen is plentiful, the brood in that now bottom shallow is or was reliably backfilled with beebread (long-term pollen).

Beebread at the bottom is sacred until Aug. - when it's used to start fall expansion to rear wintering bees. With that beebread available at the end of our midsummer doldrums, wintering was much improved. Went from 25% weaklings in late winter to ALL fairly equal in strength in Feb. This was a late addition to my full-season mngt. We didn't see the natural tendency to store the "pollen reserve" below the brood until we went to the unlimited broodnest of checkerboarding. It's stored during buildup, while the cluster is growing upward.

We believe it is standard procedure in the cylindrical tree hollow. Come late summer, the brood nest grows downward into the pollen reserve. Serves 2 purposes: Starts fall buildup for wintering bees and relocates the broodnest in the bottom, where they want it. Seems rather awkward to me to go the expense and work of doing it a different way when the bees have a format to make it happen their way.

I get too much static when I talk about their preference for brood in a deep when the alternative is a shallow, Or their reluctance to jump the gap in comb at box joints, but both those observations play into my application of the pollen box maneuver. It WORKS.
No protein feeding.

Walt


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## deknow

squarepeg said:


> what do you recommend for the hobbiest with just a few hives keith?


...I think the answer is 'a pallet of nutribee' :

deknow


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## squarepeg

good point walt. i'll have to see what the status is in my first supers and consider making that move. thanks!


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## jim lyon

I guess essentially what Walt is recommending is that a brood nest reversal in early summer will result in a better wintering cluster. Are you suggesting this results in more pollen being brought into the hive or just a better orientation of it?


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## thenance007

Whatever your means of supplementation, there have been several scientific studies done that have concluded that adding probiotics to pollen supplement or syrup increases fat body weight and improves brood health and longevity:

http://ibra.live.subhub.com/articles/20080612_84

"Two probiotics, Biogen-N and Trilac, were used as supplements to pollen substitute in feeding honey bees. The probiotics were given either throughout the entire 14-day experiment or only for 2 days, just after bee emergence. The midgut of worker bees was colonized by bacteria present in probiotics, including Lactobacillus spp., Pediococcus acidilactici, Bifidobacterium bifidum and Enterococcus faecium. Advantages of probiotic supplementation include better bee survival and higher dry mass and crude fat level in comparison with bees fed with pollen substitute only. We did not observe significant differences in total protein in the dry mass of bees. There was no correlation between the duration of feeding with probiotics and the chemical composition of the bees. This suggests that to achieve an increase in dry mass and crude fat level, it is sufficient to supply probiotics only in the beginning of the feeding period, directly after bee emergence."

and:

http://www.jas.org.pl/jas_50_1_2006_2.pdf

"Probiotics added to the substitute were also found to stimulate the growth of fat body. In bees which
received the “pure” substitute the fat body was developed to the least extent and probiotics addition had a statistically significant effect on its better development. . . The probiotic preparations applied in the
study failed to significantly contribute to the increase in feed intake, but affected the decrease in death rate of bees.
Based on the results obtained in this study it can be concluded that the controlled administration of probiotic preparations, containing specified and properly-selected species and strains of lactic acid-producing bacteria, in the pollen substitute affects better feed protein utilization by the body of bee. . ."

and:

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:22459313

"Maintaining bee colonies in a healthy state throughout the year is one of the main concerns of apiculture researchers. The phenomenon of disappearance of bee colonies is determined by several factors, one of which is bee disease. Due to the organizational structure of the bee colony, disease transmission is rapid, especially through infected food or via the nurse worker bees that feed the brood bees of the colony concerned. The practice of stimulating the bee colonies in spring using sugar syrup feeds with added prebiotic products (lactic acid or acetic acid) and probiotics (Lactobacillus acidophilus LA-14 and Bifidobacterium lactis BI-04) by using an Enterobiotic product (Lactobacillus casei), marketed as Enterolactis Plus, for three weeks, resulted in a significant reduction of the total number of bacteria in the digestive tracts of the bees, compared with the control group. By contrast, intestinal colonization with beneficial bacteria contained in probiotics products administered to the bees was observed. This resulted in an improved health status and bio productive index of the bee colonies studied."


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## Oldtimer

Hey thanks for starting the thread Squarepeg, very interesting so far!

Based on what's being said, poor wintering may be a lot more to do with pollen malnutrition than a lot of us have realised. Some of the other things that have caught the blame may be more easily dealt with by the bees if they are fully nourished.

Something I've been pondering on lately, is that because a bee receives the bulk of this nutrition while it is a larva, getting sucked on by a varroa mite family while it is pupating is going to deplete it and make it a weaker bee for life. Another one of the insidious evils of these little nasty's, over and above the viruses they transmit.


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## davidsbees

We trap a little pollen in the spring ( collecting olive (old world plant) and a little wild flower now) it goes from the trap to the pollen cleaner then to the deep freeze. I only use pollen I collect and use the it in the same year, it degrades rapidly. Getting ready to start feeding a protein supplement and a little syrup blend with EO's this week it's going to be a long dry summer in CA.


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## cerezha

Interesting thread. Couple of thiings:
- there is nothing new that pollen provide important nutrition to the bees. Even human use the pollen for exactly the same reason.
- I do not think, that any substitute may actually substitute the real stuff. If I remember properly, pollen substitute is made mostly from corn "meat", yeasts and may be a few percent of real pollen... 
- honey and pollen complement each other.
- feeding keep bees inside, it could limit their ability to harvest pollen.


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## Acebird

So anyone not feeding at all must be just lucky with their winter success?:scratch:
Every living animal needs a balanced diet and exercise. Wiled animals don't have to worry about getting exercise they get it from foraging food. Humans watch television and get confused on what a balanced diet and exercise is. Pets and tame animals are at the mercy of confused humans watching television.

Are your bees pets?


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## woodedareas

wcubed said:


> Not to cut in on your business, Kieth, but my answer is "none of the above."
> From 2000 to 2005, we applied the pollen box maneuver in the spring build up period. We got reliable wintering - almost guarenteed. Simple procedure - when the first shallow above the single deep was basically filled with expansion brood, it was placed below the deep. In the buildup, when pollen is plentiful, the brood in that now bottom shallow is or was reliably backfilled with beebread (long-term pollen).
> 
> Beebread at the bottom is sacred until Aug. - when it's used to start fall expansion to rear wintering bees. With that beebread available at the end of our midsummer doldrums, wintering was much improved. Went from 25% weaklings in late winter to ALL fairly equal in strength in Feb. This was a late addition to my full-season mngt. We didn't see the natural tendency to store the "pollen reserve" below the brood until we went to the unlimited broodnest of checkerboarding. It's stored during buildup, while the cluster is growing upward.
> 
> We believe it is standard procedure in the cylindrical tree hollow. Come late summer, the brood nest grows downward into the pollen reserve. Serves 2 purposes: Starts fall buildup for wintering bees and relocates the broodnest in the bottom, where they want it. Seems rather awkward to me to go the expense and work of doing it a different way when the bees have a format to make it happen their way.
> 
> I get too much static when I talk about their preference for brood in a deep when the alternative is a shallow, Or their reluctance to jump the gap in comb at box joints, but both those observations play into my application of the pollen box maneuver. It WORKS.
> No protein feeding.
> 
> Walt
> Wait
> Perhaps I did not understand fully but what you suggested makes sense to me. I use 2 deeps. Would I take my second deep when filled with brood and move it below the first or lower deep? o r did I misunderstand?


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## Keith Jarrett

well said 007,

When doing any feeding whether it's syrup or sub it takes on a different role. Take two hives, ones heavy ones light, feed the light one and see what happens. Do the same with sub, feed the one that's light on pollen stores and you will see two out comes from the non fed hives.

The hive takes on a different role when it feels it's coming in from outside the hive, when in fact, you just syrup or subed it, but the actions taken by the hive is completely different than if it were just stored pollen or honey inside the hive.


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## Keith Jarrett

wcubed said:


> Not to cut in on your business, Kieth,


I wish you would Walt, I am either mixing or shaking, Now these out-of-staters want to take some home with them as they leave.I set out to be a keeper not a dough boy. lol


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## jim lyon

It's also important to note that different pollens can have vastly different compositions. For those fortunate enough to have bees in an area with a lot of pollen diversity, a sub may not show nearly the same results as a mono cultural areas which, unfortunately, is fast becoming the new normal.


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## libhart

Right. Location, location, location.

Acebird, I def. don't say that those who don't feed sub are just lucky, they're just lucky enough to be in an area where it's not required during a decent year.


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## jim lyon

libhart said:


> Right. Location, location, location.


That pretty much sums it up.
Keith apparently has more business than he knows what to do with and it ain't because he is buying big ads in the ABJ it's because the folks using it are seeing results.


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## cerezha

jim lyon said:


> ... ain't because he is buying big ads in the ABJ it's because the folks using it are seeing results.


 Sort of twisted logic - if business is completely booked - why they need to invest money in big and expensive advertisement? Old economy teaches (me) that in such situation businessman should invest into expansion of the business, in equipment etc. Why advertise something, which is known to be good? Nothing personal.


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## Acebird

libhart said:


> they're just lucky enough to be in an area where it's not required during a decent year.


If the area cannot support a healthy bee should the bee be in that area permanently? Maybe this is why some people feel bees are dependent on human care.


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## jim lyon

cerezha said:


> Sort of twisted logic - if business is completely booked - why they need to invest money in big and expensive advertisement? Old economy teaches (me) that in such situation businessman should invest into expansion of the business, in equipment etc. Why advertise something, which is known to be good? Nothing personal.


I believe we are in agreement Sergey. I think word of mouth is what has increased his demand and outside of a shiny new Swinger and a truckload of blue paint only Keith could tell us how much money he has had to spend expanding his business . For all I know it's just a big writeoff to offset all his pollination income.


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## wcubed

woodedareas,
You can't Make it happen reliably with double deeps. There is something odd about the deep box and the way the colony uses it. We have all seen it, but perhaps not recognized that it is not like the tree cavity. For instance, they want brood to the bottom bar all the way across the brood nest. Makes for a flat-bottomed brood nest. Since that's what we see, it's "normal', but in the wild brood nest in the vertical tree hollow, the brood nest is rounded on the bottom. I think it has something to do with efficiency in insulating the cluster - a sphere has the least perimeter per contained volume.

If you reverse double deeps, you still have the flat bottom nest. No place to add pollen below. Believe me, we still don't have a hive is based on their instincts.

We didn't see this characteristic until we started gettng much larger brood nests with checkerboarding. When we turned them loose to grow all the brood nest they could in the season time allowed, some colonies were trying to create their pollen reserve below.
To give them a little help, we put the shallow of brood below the deep during buildup in the early season, while the broodnest is growing upward. They readily backfill the shallow with fall beebread. I get some static for the observation that the bees prefer a deep for rearing brood, but this is one application of that preference.

Walt


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## Keith Jarrett

jim lyon said:


> only Keith could tell us how much money he has had to spend


Ah Jimmy, if it took a nickel to go around the world, I couldn't make it to the first stop light.

If I had Jimmy money, I would burn mine, but I couldn't even send up smoke. 

I'm so broke now I coundn't afford too pay attention.

P.S. got to get back to shaken


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## thenance007

Walt, after they use up the beebread in the bottom box in August, does that become a brood chamber or honey storage or remain empty until we pull it to checkerboard in February? I use all medium 8 frames and remember them filling the bottom one with beebread. But depending on whether they refill it with honey would determine whether I need to go into winter with 3 or 4 boxes. I would think that if they leave it empty, 3 boxes would leave them short on winter stores.


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## wcubed

tn07,
It goes into winter empty - no stores. If the broodnest is in box 2, immediately above, it depends on whether or not they get the broodnest fully backfilled in the fall. That does not always happen here. Sometimes, when the broodnest doesn't get backfilled, they relocate up on solid capped honey (top box of 3 med). It's your call whether you want to insure in Nov that the broodnest gets backfilled or leave a forth box of honey at the top.
W


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## jonathan

jim lyon said:


> It's also important to note that different pollens can have vastly different compositions. For those fortunate enough to have bees in an area with a lot of pollen diversity, a sub may not show nearly the same results as a mono cultural areas which, unfortunately, is fast becoming the new normal.


The Schmidt study mentioned in this bee culture article found that bees which foraged on Sunflowers live on average for 31 days as opposed to 51 days for bees collecting Canola pollen.

L.S.Schmidt et al, Feeding preference and survival of young worker honey bees fed rape, sesame and sunflower pollen. J. of Econ. Entom. 88(6):1591-1595 (1995).



> 1995 study4 divided bees into two groups: one fed solely with canola pollen, the other with sunflower pollen:
> 
> Pollen Source Life Span of Bees
> 
> Canola 51 days
> 
> Sunflower 31 days
> 
> This study was done well before the advent of CCD and the remarkable 20 day difference in life span could well cause sunflower bees that survived in past years to reach a tipping point in today’s world where they are confronted with the agents of CCD.


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## cerezha

I am wondering, what is longevity of bees on on pollen substitute?


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## zhiv9

Even if pollen is the main source of nutrients, it doesn't mean that honey isn't a better feed. When I first saw this headline, I thought that it was a bit sad that they had to do it.

http://news.yahoo.com/best-rx-bees-own-honey-214615930.html

There was a time when it was generally accepted that formula was better than breast milk. It's hard to beat thousands/millions of years of evolution.


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## squarepeg

cerezha said:


> I am wondering, what is longevity of bees on on pollen substitute?


i'll go out on a limb and say that there are probably no 'substitutes' as good as the real thing, but it may be that 'supplements' could have a positive effect if they help fill in the gaps in cases where the natural forage is lacking.


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## Mbeck

zhiv9 said:


> There was a time when it was generally accepted that formula was better than breast milk


Who feeds bees breast milk?

The source of Vitellogenin is easy enough (egg yolk) but how effective can bees digest it and what can be added to improve the efficiency of this protein.

Is there anything to suggest that when bees are given Sub during a time when pollen is available they will target pollens rich in substances they lack? 

JimL,
What is needed as additional mite control as a result of feeding protein and what does that look like as practical application in your operation?


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## jim lyon

I would agree that if your bees are in an area with a great abundance of different pollen that is true. Unfortunately the increasing monoculture makes it more and more difficult to get the diversity needed for strong healthy hives. Beekeepers are a pretty bright bunch overall and they are choosing more and more to spend their hard earned money on pollen sub. because they can see it is helping their bees and not because someone is just making claims. A frame of bees rents for $20 in February and a pound of pollen sub. sells for about a buck.


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## jim lyon

Mbeck said:


> Is there anything to suggest that when bees are given Sub during a time when pollen is available they will target pollens rich in substances they lack?
> 
> JimL,
> What is needed as additional mite control as a result of feeding protein and what does that look like as practical application in your operation?


Good question about whether they target pollens. My guess is they are after what is most abundant but then I am only guessing. And speaking of guessing, the additional mite control that may be required is pure speculation on my part as well. There is a lot of "don't ask, don't tell" in varroa control. It just makes sense to me that if you choose to keep pushing bees through the fall that some mite issues may arise. To me it's nothing more than simple math that higher populations and longer seasons equates with higher varroa numbers. I have seen operations suffer serious crashes when moving their bees into a different area with abundant late fall and early winter flows.


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## Mbeck

If they do effectively target pollens based on nutritional need it would be a very useful tool for developing or improving Sub formulas.

It does stand to reason that higher populations for longer periods would affect mite populations.

Simple Math... The Math is simple if you start with the correct numbers and understand them!


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## Oldtimer

As bees have been known to collect chicken feed, and sawdust, it may be they are unable to analyse the nutritional value of the pollen they collect. Just speculation though.


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## jonathan

Pollen varies in protein content from less than 10% to over 50% depending on the source.
I remember reading somewhere that they do not automatically collect the pollen with the highest protein content.
Some pollens such as canola contain a complete set of the amino acids needed by bees and others are deficient in some.
Maybe they can collect one to compliment the deficiency in another.


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## Acebird

Oldtimer said:


> As bees have been known to collect chicken feed, and sawdust, it may be they are unable to analyse the nutritional value of the pollen they collect.


Humans crave, donuts, candy, and big mac's so analyzing the nutritional value has little to do with what one eats.


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## David LaFerney

So far this thread has mostly been about protein, but I did an unintentional experiment last summer by not harvesting honey until well into September. Even hives which had lots of honey had extremely curtailed brood production and were generally sad looking. I think that during our severe and Long nectar dearth they saved honey for winter, and suffered from malnutrition despite ample honey on the hives. They didn't starve to death they just went on crash diet. This year I'm pulling honey early and feeding throughout any periods of dearth. Which reminds me I need to get some robber screens....

Btw, I think the addition of pungent fall nectar made the honey more interesting. My customers love it - or say they do.


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## thenance007

Someone posted this link a couple of years ago, but in case you haven't seen it, it has an incredible amount of bee nutritional information--150 pages including over 40 pages of nutritional analysis of various pollens:

"Fat Bees, Skinny Bees -a manual on honey bee nutrition for beekeepers" by the Australian government:

https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-054.pdf


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## Mbeck

The paper above is loaded with information but leaves a lot unanswered.
Minerals ? Fats lipids? How to balance protiens?

I do like the line

" The most important tool a Beekeeper can have is a calculator"


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## Keith Jarrett

Carry on men....


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## squarepeg

your killing _ me _ keith, we could use a little help here......


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## WLC

I would like to see tables (all in one place) showing how the various sources of nutrition contribute to productivity.

I would also like to see some logistic equations included as well.

That way, you could calculate (approximately) how much feed x, would give you how many bees y. Or, similar relationships.

I don't recall seeing that all in one place.


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## Mbeck

Keith Jarrett said:


> Carry on men....


As soon as I pick my signature hive color ........


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## WLC

One explanation for why the addition of probiotics to pollen subs can enhance nutrition is that the resulting intestinal flora can balance out the nutritional content of the feed since the probiotic strains are producing them from the feed.

For example, you could take a cheap, nutritionally unbalanced feed source, and the probiotic organism could convert that to a more balanced mix of nutrients in the Honeybee gut.


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## Keith Jarrett

squarepeg said:


> your killing _ me _ keith, we could use a little help here......


lol... what kind of help you looking for SP?


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## Mbeck

WLC said:


> One explanation for why the addition of probiotics to pollen subs can enhance nutrition is that the resulting intestinal flora can balance out the nutritional content of the feed since the probiotic strains are producing them from the feed.
> 
> For example, you could take a cheap, nutritionally unbalanced feed source, and the probiotic organism could convert that to a more balanced mix of nutrients in the Honeybee gut.


I'm not sure that there is one magic ingredient that brings everything to a balance. I believe one famous Sub-producer just recently began to add probiotics to thier sub


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## squarepeg

your formula of course! 

seriously, is there anything you can share to help us hobbiests/sideliners who will never need a truck load of nutra-bee?

obviously you have something beneficial to strengthen colonies in the fall. i guess i'm a little frustrated that it's not available to me.

have you considered setting up regional distributors, or making your product available through bee suppy outlets?

or perhaps bee clubs could put together a group order to reach your mimimum.

if you are not sold out for the year, can you pm me what you could do on a small quantity shipped to 35768?


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## WLC

Let me run this up the flag pole and see if anyone salutes. 

Since we are doing some rethinking anyways...

What if you could take cheap HFCS, add probiotics, AND starter nutrients?

Before everyone moans and groans, just hear me out for a minute.

There's '24 hour' yeasts that can convert sugar to alcohol very quickly because of the added nutrients.

So, while we don't want to make ethanol biofuel, we might want to make up some cheap media that can convert HFCS, and some equally cheap nutrients, into a whole lot of nutritionally balanced (let's say so for the sake of argument) liquid probiotic culture.

Or, am I just being too much of a Biologist?


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## Keith Jarrett

squarepeg said:


> have you considered setting up regional distributors, or making your product available through bee suppy outlets?
> 
> or perhaps bee clubs could put together a group order to reach your mimimum.


Sp, that is being done as we speak, new smaller 5-50lb cartons & will be out shortly hang in there. I want to make sure everything is done right, I'm not looking to bee the first just the best.


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## Mbeck

I'm guessing Mann-Lake will not be the distributor.



Best of Luck in the new venture.


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## jim lyon

WLC said:


> Let me run this up the flag pole and see if anyone salutes.
> 
> So, while we don't want to make ethanol biofuel, we might want to make up some cheap media that can convert HFCS, and some equally cheap nutrients, into a whole lot of nutritionally balanced (let's say so for the sake of argument) liquid probiotic culture.
> 
> Or, am I just being too much of a Biologist?


Well the idea of a balanced liquid feed that would satisfy both the carb and protein needs of a hive in a liquid form that can be pumped is sort of the "holy grail" that has never been 
perfected. The Tucson bee diet made some such claims but it sounds like there were some dispensing and solubility problems there. My guess is the folks over at NutraBee have been working overtime in the lab on just such a product.


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## WLC

Jim:

I think that it wouldn't be such a big deal for beekeepers that make up their own sugar syrup to add a few nutrients and the contents of a Jarro-Dophilus EPS capsule (or two) to the mix before filling a hive feeder.

For example, HFCS is a cheap carbon source. The nutrient requirements of probiotic bacteria are known. The dry probiotic capsules are available at health food stores.

Why would we need a middle man if we can make up our own sugar/sub feed?

Do you see where I'm going on this? 

It would be a 'living liquid culture feed'.


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## squarepeg

bee yogart? sounds interesting.


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## WLC

Milk, water, sugar, and a few Jaorro-Dophillus EPS capsules.

Now if I could only gather up the courage to try it out.

My bees seem to be consuming less sugar syrup as of late. Pollen is coming in.

Soo...

Maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal if I 'yogurted up' the 1 gallon BeePro feeder?


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## cerezha

WLC said:


> ...HFCS, add probiotics, AND starter nutrients? ...There's '24 hour' yeasts that can convert sugar to alcohol very quickly because of the added nutrients....


Well, in aerobic condition, yeasts more likely produce a vinegar, not ethanol. Are you serious about "Biology"? I am not sure, which probiotics? For human or for the bees? Bees "probiotics" would be entirely different from the human. It seems to me stupid idea to use human probiotics for bees. I think, bee's "probiotic" is already invented - it's bees bread with fermented pollen, perfect probiotic. Since, nectar on its way to the honey also fermented, it is a probiotic also!


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> Maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal if I 'yogurted up' the 1 gallon BeePro feeder?


You sound like a frustrated "Keith Jarrett"..... 
Give it a try.


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## WLC

The probiotic organisms turn sugar and some milk into a balanced nutrients source. The lactic acid bacteria (LAB) themselves. Get it?

You automatically pasteurize the sugar and milk by heating it well about 65 degrees celsius, so when you add the sugar it dissolves easily. Once cooled, add sufficient LAB to quickly dominate the culture medium thereby crowding out competitors.

I would be interested in killing two birds with one stone. Feeding my bees both a sugar source and 'sub' at the same time.

The bees don't care if their nutrient source is from LAB meant for humans. HFCS, Soy, etc. is meant for humans too.

As long as it's all food grade folks.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

hpm08161947 said:


> You sound like a frustrated "Keith Jarrett.


lol.... It's easy to soar with the eagles when your surrounded by tukeys.


----------



## robherc

WLC said:


> The bees don't care if their nutrient source is from LAB meant for humans. HFCS, Soy, etc. is meant for humans too.


Well, without jumping on my soapbox about anything else in there, I must comment that while the bees may not have developed enough ganglia to "care" ... there is certainly a possibility that the strain(s) of bacteria one would purchase, selected for compatibility with the human digestive system, would be incompatible with, or even (gasp) directly attack some portions of the honey bees' digestive tracts...definitely an area where further experimentation would be required.


----------



## WLC

I think that Keith is definitely onto something. Especially after having read the recent Vasquez paper.

I'm simply trying to see if LAB can be coaxed into turning table sugar into more valuable nutrients by adding some milk as a starter.

Since NYC has sprayed Anvil 10-10 for West Nile Virus last September, I get the uneasy feeling that I'm going to be ordering new bees for next spring regardless.

Do I dare push the LAB/sugar syrup envelope to the breaking point?

If the bees don't like it, I'll have to wash out the feeders.

If they do take it as a feed, what could the terrible consequences be for such an act?

Non vegan bees?

Aaaaah!


----------



## David LaFerney

jim lyon said:


> Well the idea of a balanced liquid feed that would satisfy both the carb and protein needs of a hive in a liquid form that can be pumped is sort of the "holy grail" that has never been
> perfected. The Tucson bee diet made some such claims but it sounds like there were some dispensing and solubility problems there. My guess is the folks over at NutraBee have been working overtime in the lab on just such a product.


It works fine in 2-1 syrup. It looks kind of nasty, but the bees seem to find it very palatable once they start using it. It's a good way to get sub into the hive when SHB are a problem. Actually into the bees since they eat it instead of carrying it in their pollen baskets and storing it for later.


----------



## Roland

On a tangent, has anyone tested the effect of drought, etc. on the amino acid content of pollen? For example, does a plant that normal produces a well balanced pollen, produce an unbalance pollen when stressed by drought?

If so, it would explain alot of the problems from last year.

Crazy Roland


----------



## David LaFerney

That's a good point. But as previously mentioned bees will forage whatever they can find when the good stuff isn't available - all the way down to sawdust. I'm convinced that my losses were cause by malnutrition last summer - by me not feeding them when I should have. I'm not planning to repeat that performance this year.


----------



## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> Well the idea of a balanced liquid feed that would satisfy both the carb and protein needs of a hive in a liquid form that can be pumped is sort of the "holy grail" that has never been
> perfected.


When you get it right you will be able bottle it and sell it as bee bread, a mixture of honey and pollen from a natural source.


----------



## WLC

Acebird:

I'm not interested in selling a product.

It's more along the lines of rethinking bee nutrition.

Many beekeepers are compelled to feed syrup and other supplements.

This practice is often criticized for various reasons, especially the use of HFCS.

Since we are mixing the stuff up anyhow, why not throw a little lactic acid fermentation into the mix?

I've got about three gallons of 1:1 syrup left over, and it looks like the girls are taking less sugar syrup. They've averaged about a quart a day, but it has slowed down to less than a pint.

I don't want to order up sub, but I would like to improve on the nutritional quality of my feed.

I already have the syrup and the LAB capsules. All that I need is a little milk.

So, I think I'll spend Saturday morning making up some BeeGurt.

Most importantly, I have had problems in the past with leftover syrup going bad.

I think that the lactic acid produced by the LAB should help stop mold growing in my leftover syrup.


----------



## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> Since we are mixing the stuff up anyhow, why not throw a little lactic acid fermentation into the mix?
> 
> .


What is lactic acid fermentation?

When I think of fermentation, I always think of ethanol (old wine maker). I still remember the various pathways of anaerobic and aerobic respiration, but LAF (lactic acid fermentaion) is not something I remember. 

Is your moldy syrup 1:1? If so - put a touch of vinegar in there... (Acetic Acid)...


----------



## zhiv9

hpm08161947 said:


> What is lactic acid fermentation?


Malolactic fermentation. Its the conversion of malic acid to lactic acid. Wine, mead, and cider maker use it in bulk aging to take off the rough edges and give the end product a better mouth feel. Its usually performed by Lactobacillus sp. bacteria. I'm not sure if you still make wine, but its part of what improves wine during aging.


----------



## Acebird

WLC said:


> It's more along the lines of rethinking bee nutrition.


I find the word nutrition to have different meanings depending on the source of who is using the word.
All your fast food vendors use the word nutrition. An occasional hamburger from McD's will not kill you but living on them will. The worker bee goes out and collects nectar and pollen and makes a food that will not spoil for many years. Of course mankind can make a substitute for this food but he can't make it better. The idea that a sub is better is laughable. If you think that it is or ever could be than bring a hive in the lab. Never let the bees forage on flowers and feed the colony a sub of your choosing and start the clock. How long will that colony lasts?

Rethinking bee nutrition does not take a lot of effort. It is too obvious.


----------



## WLC

While yeast will make ethanol, Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB) will make, well, lactic acid.

You can say that it's how yeast or LAB can crowd out competing microbes by making a product that other organisms can't tolerate.

It's a good thing that we can tolerate alcohol and lactic acid (up to a point).

If you like yogurt or certain cheeses, you can appreciate lactic acid fermentation.

Bees have LAB in their gut, and lactic acid fermentation is needed to make bee bread from pollen.

So, using LAB in bee nutrition isn't all that out of the ordinary.

That's the probiotic view.


----------



## hpm08161947

zhiv9 said:


> Malolactic fermentation. Its the conversion of malic acid to lactic acid. Wine, mead, and cider maker use it in bulk aging to take off the rough edges and give the end product a better mouth feel. Its usually performed by Lactobacillus sp. bacteria. I'm not sure if you still make wine, but its part of what improves wine during aging.


Ahh yes, I am familiar with Malolactic Fermentation - fairly expensive little packets of bacteria. I make a wine called a Norton - it benefits significantly from MF.
So LAF is the same..... nice to know.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> An occasional hamburger from McD's will not kill you but *living on them will. *


Really? And if you don't eat hamburgers from McDonalds you will never die? Really? :scratch:

No matter what you eat, you will die! And no matter what your bees eat, they also will die.


Acebird said:


> It is too obvious.


Certainly ....
:ws:


----------



## WLC

Acebird:

Look at it this way, I've tried to avoid feeding, but my bees weren't thriving. 
So, while there's forage available, there isn't enough of it at the right time. 

I'm compelled to feed.

Now if I can successfully turn table sugar into nutritionally complete LAB that can be conumed by bees...


----------



## squarepeg

i just want to make sure that my queens don't die of old age through the winter months (short on vitellogenin?).

wlc, i found the vasquez paper, but it was a little bit above my pay grade.

can you point me to any other useful reading regarding probiotics?


----------



## squarepeg

for those who may have missed it, some of this was kicked around here:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275973-Pollen-Sub-Formulations-Input


----------



## WLC

squarepeg:

I take probiotics myself. So, that's a general nutritional issue

I would simply google lactic acid bacteria and bees to get a good feel for how LAB and Honeybee nutrition are related.

There's a bunch of articles you can find by doing that.


----------



## squarepeg

can do.

what do you think of the drs. latshaw's work?


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> squarepeg:
> 
> I take probiotics myself. So, that's a general nutritional issue


Why? Poor nutrition? Or hedging your bets, so to say.


----------



## WLC

sqkcrk:

I took antibiotics that wiped out my good gut flora, and let some bad stuff in, C. difficile.

I do know why antibiotics can be bad for bees.


----------



## WLC

I'm only familiar with the II instrument of Lathshaw. Don't know much about his views on bee nutrition.


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> sqkcrk:
> 
> I took antibiotics that wiped out my good gut flora, and let some bad stuff in, C. difficile.
> 
> I do know why antibiotics can be bad for bees.


I see. So, after a while you will stop taking the probiotics?


----------



## WLC

I'll see my gastroenterologist shortly.

I must be seeing 4 specialists and an oral surgeon within the space of 6 months.

The probiotics have been very helpful. So has a variety of cheeses, as strange as it sounds.


----------



## thenance007

I've been adding half a capsule of Solaray Multidophilis 12 (available on Amazon) to my 5 lb. sugar syrup for over 2 years and have never seen a downside. I don't add it to every batch, but particularly if I'm feeding in August leading to the production of winter bees, and also maybe every 3rd or 4th batch otherwise. My bees seem to come out of winter very healthy and I haven't lost a hive yet (I'm chemical free). I'm just a hobbyist, so take it for what it is worth. This Feb. I started adding half a capsule of Primal Defense Ultra Probiotic Formula (also Amazon) because it contains some different stains, particularly some soil organisms. I've seen the bees hang out on my compost heap and my guess is they are seeking their own version of probiotics. From my research, there are some strains specific to bees but many others that seem to be universal in animals including humans. In humans, microbes in the gut account for 90% of our immune system. There are many cultures of probiotics that don't need milk to thrive. There is a water kefir, for example, and lactofermentation of vegetables (kimchee, pickles, sauerkraut) don't involve milk. I think my bees consume the syrup before the probiotics have a chance to ferment the syrup, but if they don't, the lactofermentation would bring the pH down to closer to honey pH, so even that would probably be a good thing.


----------



## squarepeg

WLC said:


> I'm only familiar with the II instrument of Lathshaw. Don't know much about his views on bee nutrition.


if you have time, review the thread i linked a few posts back.

there's a little info on the latshaw website as well.


----------



## WLC

tn007:

I'm basically going to add the brand of probitic capsules that I use.

I think that adding milk will give the LAB enough nutrients to begin growing and dividing again.

There's a trick to this: how much sugar do I want to remain in the live culture while still having enough balanced nutrients in the form of LAB mass?

I'm going to heat up a gallon of 1:1, add a quart of milk, and then add a capsule or two (or three) of jarro-dophilus.

What I can then do is take samples, spin them down in a centrifuge, and see how much wet weight of bacteria (or whatever is spinning down) I end up with over the coarse of a few days until the culture reaches a plateau. I can also measure the density of the resulting culture to approximate how much sugar is being consumed (I have to use my biofuel testing equipment/alcoholometer). 

After all, fermentation is fermaentation.

But it's lactic acid, and not alcohol.

sp:

I still don't know what you mean by Lathshaw's work. throw me a bone and give me a hint.


----------



## squarepeg

i am wondering what your impression is of his commercially available feed supplement.


----------



## WLC

I only use sugar. Although I have been known to use other food grade products (they're not treatments, they're food).

The short answer, I don't know.

My advice would be to listen to what the commercial guys are using.


----------



## Acebird

WLC said:


> I've tried to avoid feeding, but my bees weren't thriving.
> So, while there's forage available, there isn't enough of it at the right time.


You know that your bees are nutritionally starved?


----------



## WLC

And, they're being poisoned by my own city government, and my neighbors.

There have been a number of complaints by urban beekepers regarding the 'lack of forage' for an increasing number of urban hives.

The folks in Dallas/Forth Worth know what I'm refering to.

Anvil 10-10 kills bees.

I have to strengthen my hives to withstand the chemical assault.

That's why I'm adjusting my feeding program.

It's as if I'm in farmland, even though I have one of the largest urban parks in terms of acreage nearby.

The natural feed philosophy won't work here.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

WLC said:


> My advice would be to listen to what the commercial guys are using.


Well said.


----------



## squarepeg

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well said.


not surprised.


----------



## Wisnewbee

For the sake of argument, let's assume that NutraBee from Keith Jarrett is the best. Since us sideliners arent big enough to buy by the truck load and therefore can't get it, what would be second best? Best choice is not an option if they won't sell to you. Keith, would you be willing to sell your probiotic mix similar to Joe Lathshaw? What would you recommend to use to improve bee nutrition if you couldn't use NutraBee?

Wisnewbee
Honey Luv Farm


----------



## WLC

First of all, under conditions of duress (no, not me, the bees). First, a sugar source. Second anything that could conceivably thought of as a pollen substitute or nutrient source.

However, it''s usually whatever is cheapest by the pound.

Disclaimer: I had no idea that Keith was "that Keith". 

Of course, I'm going to use Mann Lake because of the free shipping with orders of over $100.

Yes. I do buy stuff that I don't really need because I can go between two sites and do the math without taking my shoes and socks off.

Unfortunately, I'm on a fermentation 'riff' right now.

But, price is always the issue.

I doubt that Keith can lower his margins.

I can't even get the cheap stuff to price out for less.

But, home fermentation...

Hmmm...


----------



## squarepeg

you may be onto something there wlc.

and keith, the last thing i want to be is a pita.

i started the thread because i am realizing that leaving them enough honey, even 'real' honey, may not be enough.

the best science i have available is telling me that for overwintering bees, the nutritional source for longevity and immunity to pathogens which allows the storage of vitellogenin (the 'fountain of youth' randy oliver describes it), is in the pollen.

the big guys whose livelhoods are at stake have experienced less overwintering losses and stronger colonies in the spring if they supplement with protein patties, and the smart money is on nutrabee.

we're not stupid keith, and nobody expects you to reveal the secrets that you have invested your life and treasure to aquire. hearty congratulations to you for having done it!

but for the sake of this thread, and to advance the understanding of those of us who care deeply about beekeeping husbandry, let me ask you this way:

what would you consider the five most important things to know when it comes to bee nutrition as it relates to overwintering and resistance to pathogens? helping us to understand the what, when, and why of feeding pollen sub would be a valuable contribution to the forum.


----------



## WLC

sp:

You don't need to ask Keith that one.

Secondly, as a Biologist, I can tell you right now that he has his hand on the pulse of bee nutrition. He "sees things'.

I can tell by what he's saying.

Thirdly, can we lay off of this vg canard? Please already. The winter caste has alot. Nurse bees have less. Foragers have the least.

It's numbers. Not vg.


----------



## squarepeg

WLC said:


> sp:
> 
> You don't need to ask Keith that one.
> 
> _why would you say that wlc? i think it's a great question._
> 
> Secondly, as a Biologist, I can tell you right now that he has his hand on the pulse of bee nutrition. He "sees things'.
> 
> _that much is obvious, even for us non-biologists_
> 
> I can tell by what he's saying.
> 
> _most of what keith has said is that his product is superior to everybody elses, naturally. i was inviting him to help the discussion along and maybe we non-biologists can learn something_
> 
> Thirdly, can we lay off of this vg canard? Please already. The winter caste has alot. Nurse bees have less. Foragers have the least.
> 
> _canard? explain_.
> 
> It's numbers. Not vg.
> 
> _numbers? i was under the impression it had something to do with the difference in the jelly being fed to the fall brood preparing them for overwintering_.



tell you what wlc, why don't we let keith answer for himself if he is willing?


----------



## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> It's numbers. Not vg.


WLC... is this correct IYHO... Vg is not increased by nutrition.

Just curious if I have your hypothesis right.


----------



## melliferal

WLC said:


> sp:
> 
> You don't need to ask Keith that one.
> 
> Secondly, as a Biologist, I can tell you right now that he has his hand on the pulse of bee nutrition. He "sees things'.
> 
> I can tell by what he's saying.


Somewhat cryptic. You're confident he has the insight we're seeking, but we shouldn't ask him for it? That does not make a whole lot of sense.


----------



## cerezha

WLC said:


> While yeast will make ethanol, Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB) will make, well, lactic acid....


At aerobic condition yeasts will make an acetic acid, not an alcohol. I am not sure, but if I remember correctly, Lactic Acid Bacteria is working at anaerobic condition making lactic acid. Both, acetic and lactic acids have no nutrition value (to my knowledge). Both acids often used as a conservant to prevent other organisms to grow in the food - fermented and pickled food. When amount of acid reach its highest point, it actually kills bacteria and yeasts. Dead bacteria/yeasts release numerous substances, which provide additional nutrition value to the fermented food. It includes valuable minerals,vitamins, amino-acids etc - all product of decomposition of bacteria or yeasts. Fermentation is ancient way of making food. I love it! _Note:_ some elements may be excreted also by living bacteria.

In my understanding,"probiotics" is live bacteria, which normally is a part of human "fauna" in digestive tract. Since, we humans, do everything possible to destroy our intestinal habitat - additional "probiotic" may be beneficial to some individuals with damaged flora. Another mechanism is that if flora has been damaged, "bad" bacteria substitute good bacteria. It cause diarrhea and other "stomach" issues. Probiotics could replace bad bacteria and re-establish a healthy environment. This "fauna" is very specific - even different nations have a different bacteria. Cows have entirely different "fauna" 

What I was trying to explain is that human-beneficial bacteria may not be good for bees - they have their own "probiotics" inside their digestive tract. In fact ALL their food (honey and cake) *are fermented* with their own beneficial bacteria/yeasts.

If you want to give girls fermented food - easiest way would be to offer them Hefeweizen beer - just add a sugar


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Wisnewbee said:


> NutraBee from Keith Jarrett . Since us sideliners arent big enough to buy by the truck load and therefore can't get it, WisnewbeeHoney Luv Farm


I'm working on that part hope to be out in small shipments this fall. 
Keith


----------



## WLC

Beer!

Now we're getting somewhere.

Sergey,

I should have told you that I taught microbiology in my younger days. Yes, we did all kinds of fermentaiton demos.

My main point here is that beekeepers can use fermaentation to their advantage.

There's no need to worry about causing any lasting changes in the symbiotic bacteria found in the bee gut. They can takr care of themselves. 

I'm not going to mention how organic acids, like lactic acid, have been used in the past to treat for Varroa.

Nor, will I mention how Crisco can be converted to FAEEs that resemble brood pheromone.

I know more than I'm letting on.


----------



## Acebird

WLC said:


> And, they're being poisoned by my own city government, and my neighbors.
> ...
> Anvil 10-10 kills bees.
> 
> I have to strengthen my hives to withstand the chemical assault.


This does not sound like nutrition at all. It sounds like same old chemical solutions to chemical caused problems.

Feeding substitutes will propagate a weaker bee not a stronger bee. It the short term you will smile but what do you expect in the long term? I think in a relatively short time we will be welcoming honey from China because the American honey producers are following the same path as the American framer did depending on chemical solutions to chemical created problems.


----------



## WLC

I don't entirely disagree. It's a treadmill.

I would much prefer that I could feed back frames of honey and pollen stores.

But that's not what's happening in my case.

I'm feeding to build up numbers so they can go out and forage more successfully.

The flow is developing, and I'd say that the bees are behind this year as is the flow.

Much of the time, I find myself thinking of these bees as livestock. I need to keep an eye on them and take care of any needs as they arise.

At other times, they seem to take care of themselves.

So, while I like the philosophy, I usually take care of 'logistics'.

I wouldn't describe feeding syrup as causing the collapse of beekeeping.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

squarepeg said:


> why don't we let keith answer for himself if he is willing?


SP,what questions were you looking answers for? Hey it's 5:30 here & I had to be at the shop at 6 but I will bee back tonight to answer.


----------



## squarepeg

awesome keith, i know that you are very busy. 

the discussion i hoped to initiate here is based on the following assumptions:

1. successful overwintering has a lot to do with the nutrition that is available during the fall build-up of the long-lived bees. my understanding is that the fall brood is fed jelly that is extra rich and this promotes increased vitillogenin stores. it's this vitellogenin that promotes longevity and stronger immunity against pathogens. the ability make this special jelly depends on having adequate protein which comes from pollen.

2. i was under the impression that just leaving stores of real honey as opposed to leaving stored syrup would provide the nutritional basis for immunity and longevity. losing 5 of 18 colonies last winter to what boiled down to the queens not living long enough has me rethinking that. reading what randy oliver has written on bee nutrition leads me to want to understand this better.

3. professional beekeepers report better overwintering when using protien supplements in the fall. walt wright reports successful overwintering when he provides a box at the bottom of the stack in which the bees fill with bee bread made from pollen available in the spring. i have a lot of natural forage here, but the variety is much less in the fall, and while bees generally overwinter well here i wonder if it could be improved with the addition of a supplemental source of protein.

please keith, tell me if you see any flaws in these assumptions. i suppose it's all been addressed in older threads, but for the sake of those of us who need a little more, give us a little practical advice about the use of protein supplements.

what conditions in the hive signal when the time is right to apply it?
are any special precautions necessary for those in areas with small hive beetles?
how to you determine how much to give?
do you use a feeding rim or just squish it in on top?

i'm sure that like with all things beekeeping, some of the considerations will have to be qualified with 'it depends'. my intent is to advance the conversation and understanding on this topic, and i know that you have a lot to offer in that regard. many thanks.


----------



## jim lyon

Good questions all. I would suggest you check out some of the you tube videos that Keith has out there that will answer a few of those questions.


----------



## squarepeg

jim lyon said:


> Good questions all. I would suggest you check out some of the you tube videos that Keith has out there that will answer a few of those questions.


thanks jim. i wasn't aware of those videos, i'll see if i can find them.


----------



## WLC

I'm not clear why so much fuss is being made about proxies like vitellogenin levels.

Typically, beekeepers can't measure it anyway.

Beekeepers simply need to observe what's happening outside the hive, and they can also directly gauge the nutritional status of the hive by taking quick inventories of the types of frames that they have in the hive.

It's productivity goals and nutritional status that guide the response of beekeepers.

What do you want from your hives?


----------



## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> I'm not clear why so much fuss is being made about proxies like vitellogenin levels.
> 
> ?


I thought you disagreed with the Vg hypothesis on the RO site?


----------



## WLC

How can I put this...

a better proxy for beekeepers would be hive weight over time.

It's direct, it's feasible, and it's also a better indicator of nutritional status.

You can have plenty of fat/long-lived bees when all that you really needed was a queen that could lay up a storm before the flow.

Do you know of any beekeepers that actually measure vg?

However, there were a few here on Beesource who weigh hives.


----------



## psfred

According to Randy Oliver's research, the main point about fall nutrition is that winter bees store much more protein internally than summer bees, and thus require more protein during development. The amount of pollen in the hive in January is much less significant than the amount in the hive in late September (at least for this area) as the bees cannot reach outside the cluster in January when they start raising brood for the spring buildup. Might be Feb before they start, depending in the winter, but in any case, they must provided the protein for making royal jelly from their internal stores for the first round of brood, and likely cannot get to much pollen. 

This is why they starve out in late winter when they have adequate honey or syrup -- lack of protein causes the nurse bees to die from protein loss, the cluster shrinks too much, and they freeze. Nothing can be done in late winter, they cannot leave the cluster to feed on anything, so the hive fails in the midst of what appears to be adequate supplies of stores.

The solution according to Randy Oliver, is to feed a protein patty during winter bee brood rearing. Around here that is September, usually fairly early in the month when it's still warm, or late August. By late September there tyipcally is very little brood in the hive. I fed mine this year and both hives came out booming in the spring, no signs of slow buildup or excessive bee loss in spite of a series of repeated cold snaps that slowed everything down. 

Spring pollen is too late -- any hive without adequate protein is already dead by the time the bees can collect significant amounts.

If you have small hive beetle problems, feed in small amounts on top of the brood nest, no more than the bees can use or store in a couple days. They do pack it away just like pollen.

A little extra work, with the reward of having a healthy, growing hive in March.

Peter


----------



## WLC

I don't disagree. Except for who the principal researchers were.


----------



## squarepeg

jim, thanks again for pointing me to keith's video, and yes it not only answered some of my questions but it gave me a glimpse into another realm of beekeeping that is very different than the one i find myself in, (plus i now understand the joke behind the 'blue hives'  )

what it looks like is keith has 1000 colonies in one yard that are kept brooding all winter in order to be strong in february for almonds. this is very different than the winter shut down that is typical of what colonies around here do.

peter, thanks for your reply. your point is exactly the one that i wanted to explore in this thread. nice to know that you got the outcome you were trying to get. can you share what type of supplement you used?

wlc, it's about overwintering. i am one who does weigh the hives in late fall. stores were not an issue for my bees as much as queen longevity this past year. plus i keep my hives off treatments and i am all for anything that helps immunity to pathogens.

seems like a no brainer. it adequate protein is available during the fall brood up, and if adequate protein increases vitellogenin, and if increased vitellogenin leads to better longevity and resistance to disease, and if supplementing with an appropriate feed decreases winter losses and promotes good build up in the spring....

then what's the down side?


----------



## WLC

I would also say that we need to be careful about generalizations.

Do you have Carniolan or Italian Honeybees? Maybe a hybrid?

So, we know that they keep different size winter clusters, one has rapid spring buildup, one shuts down egg laying during dearths...etc. .

No, we shouldn't handle their nutritional requirements the same way.

All you can do is assess the nutritional and productivity status of your hive by examining the actual frames. Then you can decide how to handle their different requirements.

You can see the primary information with your own eyes. The secondary stuff is 'fluff'.


----------



## squarepeg

ok.

can you recommend what i need to look for at my fall inspection that would let me know my queen isn't going to survive the winter?

all of my colonies looked great last september with nice cluster sizes and adequate stores. i believe it is as peter describes whereby the queen and those first rounds of brood depend on the stored vitellogenin in the workers.

and as you pointed out in an earlier post that's something we can't see, but the result of it running out are predictable.

i sense you aren't buying the notion that vitellogenin plays this role, why?


----------



## WLC

It's the nutrient stores and winter cluster size that are important.

You can't prove cause and effect in field trials for Honeybees. Scientifically, you have no control of all of the other possible environmental variables. In short, we don't know why your queen(s) died. It's impossible to prove.

Vg is being used as a proxy for the nutritional status of hives, when we can see that directly upon inspection.

It's pointless to blame vg. 

You might as well blame viruses. You can't see them either.


----------



## Acebird

squarepeg said:


> then what's the down side?


The golden rule for nature is survival of the fittest with the exception of the human race. If you INTERVENE and keep the weak alive you will end up with pets that are very susceptible to any destructive force that nature throws their way. Unlike human beings, bees cannot be controlled totally by human beings like say a domestic cow or dog. So along come nature and the whole plan blows up in your face.

So now you are betting. Go ahead and roll the dice. The best card players know when to fold.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

squarepeg said:


> what conditions in the hive signal when the time is right to apply it?
> are any special precautions necessary for those in areas with small hive beetles?
> how to you determine how much to give?
> do you use a feeding rim or just squish it in on top?


SP, we run off the CALENDAR, we start in aug- nov you see SP the queen runs off of day light hours so after the middle of June( longest day of the year) she starts slowing down, it is very difficult to run against mother nature. Also, having a premium sub really helps because you really have a short window to brood up, remember a "full" brood round takes a month so when counting you ONLY really have aug-sept-oct for good brooding. shoot me with some more questions.


----------



## Oldtimer

Acebird said:


> with the exception of the human race.


Really? IMHO people are slowly getting dumber.


----------



## WLC

Acebird, it's not that I disagree with the sentiment.

Honeybees are non-native,semi-domesticated livestock.

Somebody rolled the dice by bringing Honeybees to the Americas (I say it was Cortez in the early 1500s).

I think that it's ok to feed livestock, even though some people can't let go of 'naturalistic instincts'.


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## Birdman

Keith Jarrett said:


> SP, we run off the CALENDAR, we start in aug- nov you see SP the queen runs off of day light hours so after the middle of June( longest day of the year) she starts slowing down, it is very difficult to run against mother nature. Also, having a premium sub really helps because you really have a short window to brood up, remember a "full" brood round takes a month so when counting you ONLY really have aug-sept-oct for good brooding. shoot me with some more questions.


Keith in one of the videos you put on @ 5lb of sub. Do you feed that much every time or just spring ?


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## Birdman

Oldtimer said:


> Really? IMHO people are slowly getting dumber.


Oldtimer I always say god must love stupid people, because he created so many.


----------



## squarepeg

Keith Jarrett said:


> SP, we run off the CALENDAR, we start in aug- nov you see SP the queen runs off of day light hours so after the middle of June( longest day of the year) she starts slowing down, it is very difficult to run against mother nature. Also, having a premium sub really helps because you really have a short window to brood up, remember a "full" brood round takes a month so when counting you ONLY really have aug-sept-oct for good brooding. shoot me with some more questions.


understood keith, and many thanks! i guess i'll have to pay attention this year and see when that happens here, but from what can recall i'm guessing it's august/sept. 

what do you think of peter's suggestion to use small amounts at a time to keep the beetles out of it?


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Birdman said:


> Keith in one of the videos you put on @ 5lb of sub. Do you feed that much every time or just spring ?


in the fall 7lbs at a feeding and in Jan 5lbs


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## Keith Jarrett

squarepeg said:


> what do you think of peter's suggestion to use small amounts at a time to keep the beetles out of it?


Yeah know SP, I do send loads of sub to TX where they fight the beetles, one guy puts it in a paper bags & if I recall he feeds about three pounds at a time. I have been told that the beetles arent as bad as with other subs, I'm not sure if it's the high oils in the sub or what.


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## squarepeg

WLC said:


> I don't disagree. Except for who the principal researchers were.



is it something personal?




WLC said:


> It's the nutrient stores and winter cluster size that are important.
> 
> _good point wlc, i need to pay more attention to the pollen stores in my hives._
> 
> You can't prove cause and effect in field trials for Honeybees. Scientifically, you have no control of all of the other possible environmental variables. In short, we don't know why your queen(s) died. It's impossible to prove.
> 
> Vg is being used as a proxy for the nutritional status of hives, when we can see that directly upon inspection.
> 
> _seeing lots of pollen in a hive is one thing, but how would one know if there is good varitel balance there._
> 
> It's pointless to blame vg.
> 
> You might as well blame viruses. You can't see them either.
> 
> _yes, but if you buy into the tenant that vg promotes natural immunity the viruses may be less of an issue._


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## squarepeg

Keith Jarrett said:


> Yeah know SP, I do send loads of sub to TX where they fight the beetles, one guy puts it in a paper bags & if I recall he feeds about three pounds at a time. I have been told that the beetles arent as bad as with other subs, I'm not sure if it's the high oils in the sub or what.


good to know keith, again many thanks!

i'd love to give your stuff a try, got my fingers crosses the smaller quantities will be available in time.


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## Roland

Thank you Kieth for your time and information. Now go back to napping under that bus.....

Sheri likes your product. Let me know when you have smaller sizes available. 

Crazy Roland


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## thenance007

Acebird said:


> I find the word nutrition to have different meanings depending on the source of who is using the word.
> All your fast food vendors use the word nutrition. An occasional hamburger from McD's will not kill you but living on them will. The worker bee goes out and collects nectar and pollen and makes a food that will not spoil for many years. Of course mankind can make a substitute for this food but he can't make it better. The idea that a sub is better is laughable. If you think that it is or ever could be than bring a hive in the lab. Never let the bees forage on flowers and feed the colony a sub of your choosing and start the clock. How long will that colony lasts?
> 
> Rethinking bee nutrition does not take a lot of effort. It is too obvious.


Acebird, I don't think that anyone has implied that sub is better than pollen, unless that pollen is contaminated. In an ideal world, our efforts to improve bee nutrition would be laughable. But we have screwed up the bees' world with pesticides, reduced genetic diversity, monoculture, cities, etc. to the point that if we want the benefit of their service, we sometimes have to help alleviate some of the challenges we've presented them with. I'm totally with you on natural selection of the fittest and not propping them up with chemicals, but in order for them to have time to adapt, sometimes we need to keep them alive long enough for that to happen. WLC and David's bees might be developing resistance to varroa or foulbrood, etc. but if they die from malnutrition due to a drought or whatever, that improvement is lost to the species. What is being discussed is how to help them meet their nutritional needs so they can continue to evolve. If factors create a situation where there is not enough pollen, or the pollen available isn't of the quality or diversity necessary to meet their nutritional needs, we are supporting them, not "propping them up". "Survival of the fittest" implies competition, and sometimes what is needed is cooperation--for bees and humans!


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## WLC

Guys, I let Beeweaver do the resistance breeding for me this time around. Before that, it was VHS. 

I do understand and agree with selecting for bees that can adapt and survive to nutritional levels. Wouldn't Carniolan bees fit that description?

sp.

No it's not personal. It's just the focus on the peripheral issues. I thought that it was 'immune priming' that helped provide resistance? Heh, Heh.


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## Acebird

thenance007 said:


> but in order for them to have time to adapt, sometimes we need to keep them alive long enough for that to happen.



You might be able to sway my thinking if everyone in the big apple was having the same difficulty as WLC apparently is. Obviously New York and Utica are two different locations but they have the same seasons and NY is likely to have more of a variety of plant life than we do. I am really not against the logic of helping a hive in a location where a dearth could mean life or death. I am against pumping up hives in general to get more production. This is what I believe pollen sub is marketed to and why it is large scale and not small scale. It is not about saving hives.

This is the road that agriculture has followed for what 50 years. Initially we see huge benefits. 50 years down the road we now see what screwing around with mother nature costs us. Beekeepers look at what Big Ag has done and point the finger. Then they turn around and do the same thing? Huh?


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## squarepeg

WLC said:


> I thought that it was 'immune priming' that helped provide resistance? Heh, Heh.


interesting. please translate that for us non-biologists.


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## WLC

We all got hit by Anvil 10-10 on the west side of Manhattan. I have yet to see a single bumble bee or wasp.

I'm working on something that's been part of agricultural practices for a while, fermentation.

My working premise is that I can turn a poor source of nutrients, table sugar, into a more complete one by using fermentation.

So, this Saturday morning, I added a pint of whole milk to a gallon of 1:1 sugar syrup, heated to 65 degrees C. to pasteurize it, and allowed it to cool. I then added the contents of two probiotic capsules. I now have over 3 gallons of this live culture.

I know it's alive because I took a sample home, and it's clear that the bacteria are growing.

Why am I feeding my hives syrup, and in the near future, live culture?

Because I'd like to catch the flow this time around so that I can feed back medium supers of honey.

It's beekeeping with a dash of 'foodie' thrown in.


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## squarepeg

that's also interesting wlc. gives a whole new meaning to 'bee milk'.


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## jim lyon

Interesting, keep us posted. Glad they are your bees and not mine.


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## WLC

If the bees don't take it, I could always eat it myself.


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## squarepeg

from wikipedia:

"Vitellogenin and honey bees [edit]

Honey bees deposit vitellogenin molecules in fat bodies in their abdomen and heads. The fat bodies apparently act as a food storage reservoir. The glycolipoprotein vitellogenin has additional functionality as it acts as an antioxidant to prolong Queen bee and forager lifespan as well as a hormone that affects future foraging behavior.[6] The health of a honey bee colony is dependent upon the vitellogenin reserves of the nurse bees - the foragers having low levels of vitellogenin. As expendable laborers, the foragers are fed just enough protein to keep them working their risky task of collecting nectar and pollen. Vitellogenin levels are important during the nest stage and thus influence honey bee worker division of labor.

A nurse bee's vitellogenin titer that developed in the first four days after emergence, affects its subsequent age to begin foraging and whether it preferentially forages for nectar or pollen. If young workers are short on food their first days of life, they tend to begin foraging early and preferentially for nectar. If they are moderately fed, they forage at normal age preferentially for nectar. If they are abundantly fed, immediately after emergence, their vitellogenin titer is high and they begin foraging later in life, preferentially collecting pollen. Pollen is the only available protein source for honey bees.

Vitellogenin and juvenile hormone feedback loop [edit]

For the majority of the investigated insect species it has been documented that juvenile hormone stimulates the transcription of the vitellogenin genes and the consequent control of vitellogenin production (cf. Engelmann, 1983; Wyatt and Davey, 1996).[7][8]

The vitellogenin expression is part of a regulatory feedback loop that enables vitellogenin and juvenile hormone to mutually suppress each other. Vitellogenin and juvenile hormone likely work antagonistically in the honey bee to regulate the honey bees development and behavior. Suppression of one leads to high titers of the other.[9]

It is likely that the balance between vitellogenin and juvenile hormone levels is also involved in swarming behavior.[10]

Juvenile hormone levels drop in honey bee colonies pre-swarming and it is expected that vitellogenin levels would therefore rise. One may surmise, that swarming bees would want to pack along as much vitellogenin as possible to extend their lifespan and to be able to quickly build a new nest."



interesting about the swarming connection. i'd like to read some of those references, but i can't access them.

i'll be doing my homework this summer, like i mentioned i'm interesting in longevity (avoiding queen failure through the winter months), and immunity (not using mite treatments so promoting protection against mite vectored viruses).


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## WLC

Jim:

In all seriousness, have you ever thought of fermenting corn to make bee feed?

Just a thought.


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## David LaFerney

WLC - if your experiment is successful what exactly do you expect it to be? Better nutrition than sugar syrup I get, but better in what way? Do you expect it to be a significant source of protein? Lipids? Easier to digest, so better nutritional utilization? Will it spoil and become pathogenic without refrigeration? It really does sound interesting.


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## WLC

I propose that it would be a better source of nutrients than the starting materials. It may even be a complete source of nutrients.

The bulk of the nutrients would have been made by the lactic acid bacteria (LAB) themselves. Honeybees already have their own LAB in their guts, so the nutrients provided by the live culture should be compatible. Also, it could save the bees some metabolic energy by having the LAB in the culture pre-digest the nutrients so their own gut LAB have less work to do.

I expect that the lactic acid produced by the LAB culture will help to prevent spoilage. Lactic acid should also provide an additional nutrient source, and have another fringe benefit.

Lactic acid has been used to treat for varroa.

It might be a way for treatment free beekeepers to fulfill their legal obligation to treat for infection, while avoiding chemicals. It's already part of the live culture medium.

However, I have yet to actually feed it to them...


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## thenance007

Acebird, I see your point and I agree that it is a valid concern.

WLC your intention in using the probiotics is completely different from what I had understood the value to be--I thought they were to replace and/or reinforce microbes that might have been missing or killed by pesticides, etc. I'm no biologist, but I like your theory very much--thank you for explaining it. After I read that 95% of the microbes in the bee's midgut were specific to bees, I wondered if the probiotics would help. Since lactobacteria seem to have a positive effect in reducing pathogenic competition, I wonder if somehow they could also affect the hive environment to help shift the balance of microbes in an unhealthy hive. Do you think that feeding your "beegurt" would affect the hive in that way? Or maybe spraying a dilute solution on the bees on the frames so they could inoculate them?


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## WLC

I would say that at the very least, the pH of the feed would be shifted to a level closer to that of the Honeybee gut.

I do think that feeding a live probiotic culture would shift the microflora composition towards a more positive range (acidic).

I also think that would help to crowd out pathogenic organisms as well.

Would I spray the frames? It's a bit of extra work, however I do see where you're going on this.

Right now I need to see: if the bees will accept this as feed, where it will go in the hive, and if I can balance the ingredients to maximize the culture and reduce its cost.

The long term goal would be to use live probiotic cultures as bee feed using a variety of nutrient sources.

For example, corn has its own natural LAB microflora, and it can be hard to keep it from fermenting under certain conditions. What if we encouraged fermentation?

We both understand the significance of this, so I'll try it out during the week.


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## Keith Jarrett

This page has such language as.....
Microflora, Microbes, Midgut, Lactobacteria, Nutritional Utilization, PH Levels, ect...

Wow... outstanding thread & the folks that have commented.


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## WLC

Don't look now, but I just got hold of some cracked corn.


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## thenance007

WLC, I don't understand your interest in fermenting corn. Is it because you want to inoculate HFCS and turn it into a more complete nutrient? Also, my interest in the possibility of inoculating the hive with lactobacteria is that as I understand it, many of the chemicals used in the hive kill off many of the microbes, good with the bad. This probably opens the hive to an imbalance of microbes, possibly allowing buildup of disease and viruses. It might be that spraying the frames (or bees and allowing them to spread it throughout the hive) would improve the balance of microbes, reducing disease. 

After your mention, I've started reading about lactic acid for varroa control. If the lactobacteria produce lactic acid, maybe that would inhibit varroa or create an unfriendly environment for them? Better nutrition AND varroa control--the holy grail! Certainly worth investigating and you seem to have the background to do it. Kudos!


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## davidsbees

I think more important than probiotics in a protein supplement are vitamins and minerals added fats and enzymes. Pollen contains over 12 vitamins, 15 fatty acids,all 28 minerals and all known enzymes & co-enzymes. In addition 30-40% sugar 13% rutin 15% lecithin and not to mention 7- 50% proteins. Also many miscellaneous gums,waxes, resins micro-nutrients and yet undefined nutrients. I think you can pretty close with the major ingredients.


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## WLC

tn007:

Cracked corn can be found for less than HFCS by the pound.

Why cracked corn? Sour mash.

If you add hot, 110 degrees F/ 40 degrees C, water to cracked corn, it will undergo a succession of microbial cultures ending with the production of lactic acid. Corn has lactic acid bacteria as part of its natural microbial flora.

I've pasteurized it, for food safety reasons, and will add the probiotics once cooled.

We have heard reports in the past of bees feeding on corn (cracked perhaps).

Maybe the LAB were fermenting the corn?

I hope that the lactic acid has varroa repelling properties.

Davidsbees:

The LAB in the feed can help the bees ferment pollen into bee bread. I wonder if the bees do in fact take the feed, what will they do with it? Feed it to brood? Treat it like pollen? Or, will they dump it outside the hive?

However, I do think that fermentation can be used with different feedstocks to produce bee feed with better nutrition than more expensive feeds.


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## davidsbees

Not shure how your going to control the bad bugs in the fermentation process. You would have to use the same control as making wine. Bees inoculate the pollen before it even get to the hive. I think the results of feeding substitutes speaks for itself. Properly formulated subs are well accepted.


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## thenance007

Sour mash? Now you are speaking my language--mead maker and homebrewer here. Which is how I learned everything I know about fermentation. Not sure the ATF would buy "it's for my bees".

I know pollen is high in B vitamins--any way to incorporate brewers yeast in the fermentation to add those? I also add a drop or two of Ocean Trace (http://ag-usa.net/OT.htm to each batch of syrup. It is concentrated sea water with most of the sodium and chlorine removed. It was created as an organic foliar spray for plants, but contains 90 natural trace elements in the same proportions as in the human body and there is a suggestion for adding it to the drinking water of animals. 

You are pasteurizing the fermented corn? I understand the safety issue but it seems like that would destroy a lot of its value, wouldn't it? Or are you more interested in the end products of the fermentation than the live culture aspect? Even adding back the probiotics. I understand your experimentation is in its initial stages and will probably evolve as your results do. What about the possibility of inoculating your ferment with bee bread to include the exact probiotics the bees need? Fascinating--but have to say I'm more likely to dump a couple of probiotic capsules into my sugar syrup than to stir up a sour mash for my bees!


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## WLC

Yes, I used to make my own wine. I'm using similar precautions.

I've just used a grain inoculation technique with the cracked corn.

I'll have to shake the mason jars every so often. It should be ready in about 3 days.


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## WLC

I'm pasteurizing the raw cracked corn first. Then I add the probiotics.

I don't really find it too difficult. It's just a bit time consuming. Like cooking.

I'm not sure why fellow foodies would find this outside the lines.

We eat stuff that we ferment all the time. I'm just fine. Errrrrrrrrrr, yaaaaack.


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## WLC

By the way, I did order up some 24 hr turbo yeast. Just in case.


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## Birdman

why crack corn? sour mash heat it to around 186f catch the steam and you will have some thing for human consumption.:shhhh:


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## Keith Jarrett

WLC said:


> I propose that it would be a better source of nutrients than the starting materials. It may even be a complete source of nutrients.


WLC, I was trying Kumbusha tea with the scooby on top as a nutrient source additive a while back, I have found others with better preformance since then but I think it's best to never stop trying to improve.

there was once 4-up 5-up BUT we all know 7-up  the trick is to never give up. 

P.S. good luck with your mash.


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## WLC

Thanks Keith.

I've noted while poking around online that silage, a product of various kinds of fermentation, is commonly fed to livestock. Maybe I'm looking at a form of bee silage?

I've also noted that it's not uncommon for social insects to rely on some form of microbial culture or another, like leafcutter ants.

I think that lactic acid bacteria may be the Honeybee's key food microbe.

I also surmise that lactic acid itself may be the key to the general acidity found in the various parts of the hive.

I was trying to make a point with squarepeg that there are more important aspects to the nutritional status and productivity of the hive than vg.

Lactic acid could be a very important signaling molecule in the hive in that respect.

I'm curious to see if the presence of lactic acid and LAB in feed can make my own hives more productive.

The sour syruo is taking it's time, and the sour mash as well.


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## cerezha

Keith Jarrett said:


> ... Kumbusha tea with the scooby on top as a nutrient source additive...


 Unfiltered beer-beeer-beer-beer!!!!


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## cerezha

WLC said:


> ... Lactic acid could be a very important signaling molecule in the hive in that respect....


 Sure, it gave a muscle-ache after physical anaerobic exercise in humans! I am wondering if bees could overexercise?


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## WLC

Sergey:

I think that some folks would say that's it's worth the effort for someone to explore the possibility of using something that sells for much less than HFCS per pound, cracked corn, apply some simple fermentation techniques, sour mashing, and end up with a more nutritious and economical feed for Honeybees, sour mashed crack corn. 

I'm simply rethinking bee nutrition, and doing my thing.


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## thenance007

Doing my thing too, WLC. For my hive inspection this afternoon, I mixed up a spray bottle of weak sugar syrup with a capsule of probiotics. As I pulled the frames, I gave them a light spray, bees and all. I don't use chemicals so I think my hives are already pretty healthy, but have lots of new frames due to catching a swarm and adding a nuc this Spring. And since I haven't been feeding since January I think this is a good time to boost my good microbes. Really no way of knowing results, unless they die, which I don't expect, just a gut instinct that it's a good thing to do.


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## WLC

tn007:

You're most likely boosting the social immunity of the hive by providing beneficial microflora that can help to crowd out the 'bad guys'.

We're thinking along the same lines. Using LAB/probiotics as a way to improve hive health and nutrition.

I guess I like fermentation more than most. That sour syrup smells hmmm, hmmm, good.


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## Mbeck

How about vegtable powders would they benifit from your bee bread experiment ?

Something like these....
http://m.znaturalfoods.com/
(It was one of the first sites that popped up)
Some of these powders may have high nutrients that could be lacking.

They work great to dredge veal in before you sauté it!


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## WLC

I don't know if vegetable powders alone have enough nutrients to support the growth of LAB.

The only way to know for sure would be to try.

However, I am looking for ways to reduce the cost of feed, while increasing its nutrional value.

I've seen 50lbs of cracked corn for around $10. It's animal feed.

It's protein content is a definite plus when comparing it to HFCS.

Without factoring in the water content, it goes for about $0.20 a pound when compared to HFCS at a reported $0.31 per pound.

This is all without turning it into sour mash, which will likely improve its nutritional value.


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## jim lyon

WLC said:


> I've seen 50lbs of cracked corn for around $10. It's animal feed.
> 
> It's protein content is a definite plus when comparing it to HFCS.
> 
> Without factoring in the water content, it goes for about $0.20 a pound when compared to HFCS at a reported $0.31 per pound.
> .


If you had a friendly local farmer who wanted to bother, the current approximate value right out of the bin is around .10 per lb. it's all considered animal feed. You are correct, corn syrup is priced about .30 per lb. delivered in truck load quantities. Bee supply houses typically resell smaller quantities and add a bit of an up charge. As a side note, sugar prices have dropped considerably and liquid sucrose can be bought for around .25 per lb.


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## WLC

I tested a two day old batch of newly fermented cracked corn/probiotics. I placed a pint sized portion in a container w/o liquid on top of a hive.

The bees did not seem to notice it.

The rest of the batch is now in an incubator at around 37 degrees C. . I added at least two volumes of water to the fermenting cracked corn to create a 'wash' that will be tested sometime this weekend.

The gallon 1:1 syrup + 1 pint of whole milk + probiotics has now fermented to the point where the bacteria/and milk has seperated out on top of the liquid column.

I'll test it out this weekend as well.


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## Brad Bee

WLC, you may already know, but FYI many farmers use insecticides to treat corn and other small grains with to keep weevils out of the grain bins......


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## hpm08161947

Brad Bee said:


> WLC, you may already know, but FYI many farmers use insecticides to treat corn and other small grains with to keep weevils out of the grain bins......


Phosphene..... long gone PH3..... highly volatile stuff. Now... the neo's might be another matter... course he may be using garden corn seed....


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## WLC

It's cracked corn feed.

So, it's likely that it's GMO/neonic treated.

I doubt that the neonic will remain after it's fermented by lactic acid bacteria though.


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## Acebird

Brad Bee said:


> WLC, you may already know, but FYI many farmers use insecticides to treat corn and other small grains with to keep weevils out of the grain bins......


This is one huge difference between organic foods and non organic foods. Many food allergies with pets are because of the practice of spraying poisons directly on animal feed. All the big name brand pet suppliers do this.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> This is one huge difference between organic foods and non organic foods. Many food allergies with pets are because of the practice of spraying poisons directly on animal feed. All the big name brand pet suppliers do this.


Can you give an example of poisons being sprayed on pet food by big name pet suppliers? I assume this would be done for storage purposes.


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## Acebird

Purina was one I know of. If they do it they all do it. And yes it was for storage prior to bagging it.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> Purina was one I know of. If they do it they all do it. And yes it was for storage prior to bagging it.


Do you happen to know what the poison was?


----------



## Acebird

No I don't it was a long time ago. And it was someone else that was working for the company that packaged the dog food. It caused himself many skin problems. That posion might not be used anymore (more than likely it doesn't work). But you can be sure they got another one to replace it.


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## WLC

I hope that by pasteurizing the starting materials, and then allowing the probiotic LAB to ferment the batch, that I can at least mitigate any contamination issues.

Don't forget, the pH can reach 4 with lactic acid concentration of about 4-5%. That's as high or higher than the concentration in some organic acid treatments for Varroa!

Today I examined the 1 gallon in-hive pro feeders and the 1:1 syrup was hardly being consumed. Perhaps a pint in a week. It could be a bad batch, or the flow is on, or since it's a package install, I've hit the first brood cycle transition. I dunno.

I removed the feeders, dumped the syrup, washed the feeders with clorox solution, and rinsed.

I then poured a gallon of the probiotic sour syrup/Beegurt [1 gallon 1:1 sucrose syrup + 1 pint whole milk (pasteurized by heating to 65 degrees C) + contents of 2 capsules of Jarro Dophilus EPS] that has been fermenting since last Saturday, into the feeders.

Yes, I did the deed.

I'm testing Beegurt on my bees.


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## squarepeg

thanks for keeping us posted wlc, very interesting concept.


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## thenance007

Got my fingers and toes crossed, WLC--I like your courage!


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## WLC

tn007:

It's not courage. I'm repaying a debt. Probiotics saved me. I'm a believer. Fermentation power baby!


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## Mbeck

I hope we can learn something from your trial.


A spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down!


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## WLC

I'd like to report that the bees have accepted Beegurt. :banana:

They've consumed about a pint of the top 'yogurt' layer since yesterday. They have another pint or so before they reach the clear 'non-yogurt' layer.

As a reminder, I added a pint of whole milk to a gallon of 1:1 sucrose syrup, pasteurized it, and then added the contents of two probiotics capsules once it cooled.


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## squarepeg

very cool wlc, did you measure ph?


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## WLC

Ph between 4 and 5.

The milk curdles when the syrup becomes sour.


----------



## squarepeg

understood. what measures will you be using to evaluate the effects of your beegurt?


----------



## WLC

I'll eyeball the number of drawn frames of foundation (deeps) per gallon.

My first concern will be to see the approximate rate of consumption of Beegurt per day.

After I've finished feeding about 3-5 more gallons of the stuff (I started at 4pm, Thurs. 5/16/13), I'll switch to sour mashed, crack corn wash.

It appears to be even more acidic than the beegurt (via hydrion test strips).

I want to demonstrate that they accept both Beegurt and Sour Mash Wash first without any observable adverse effects.

I felt that this was more important for now since it could encourage other beekeepers to attempt live, probiotic culture feeding of bees.

Alot more is at stake than the few $s worth of resources that I'm risking.

It could be a new paradigm in bee feed.

Technically speaking, you could inoculate animal waste with cracked corn, and produce a nutrient rich product that could be used as bee feed.

Got livestock? All you need is cracked corn to feed the bees.

No, I'm not kidding.


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## squarepeg

interesting, and again thanks for keeping us posted.


----------



## hpm08161947

I wonder if they are storing it, consuming it, or both. If storing it, I wonder what it's fate would be long term.

Yea... I'm curious too....


----------



## WLC

Are you thinking Beecheese?


----------



## thenance007

Go, WLC!!!:thumbsup:


----------



## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> Are you thinking Beecheese?


Make that "Bree".....


----------



## WLC

My feeling is as follows, by increasing the lactic acid concentration in syrup, you not only create an acidified feed using live culture, which more closely resembles the pH of honey, you can also make a form of Varroa treatment.

Those lactic acid bacteria will turn the sugar in sugar syrup into lactic acid until it reaches a particular acid concentration. Organic acid concentrations of 3.5% are a common form of Varroa treatment.

Sour syrup could approach that concentration.

I already think that the wash solution in my sour mash cracked corn has reached and surpassed that concentration.

All I need to do to approximate the lactic acid concentration in sour feed is use a good pH meter, the ph, the pKa of lactic acid, and a formula (Henderson Hasselbalch).

However, all that being said, it doesn't mean anything unless other 'adventurers' can repeat and corroborate the results.


----------



## Acebird

WLC do you have these bees contained so they have no other choice but to eat this feed?


----------



## thenance007

Here are links to 2 articles on using lactic acid for varroa control:

http://www.moraybeedinosaurs.co.uk/Varroa/Lactic_acid.htm

http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/02080/index.html?lang=en

Based on the above articles, spraying lactic acid isn't effective on capped brood. But possibly if the bees are feeding Beegurt to the brood before capping? Lots of questions to be answered, but intriguing possibilities!


----------



## WLC

There's a Turkish study comparing Varroa treatments, including different organic acids. While lactic acid wasn't as effective as oxalic acid, it still had enough of an effect to be noticable.
Let's not forget that LAB will make lactic acid when it is either diluted, or evaporates from the culture medium.


No Acebird. The flow is underway, and they're taking in pollen.

It's also important for me to see if they will take the feed during a flow.

You know, '1 out of 10 bees prefers Beegurt'. Or, something like that.


----------



## Roland

WLC - If you sprouted whole corn, then roasted, would you not get shorter saccharides that your microbes could use?

Crazy Roland


----------



## WLC

Sprouting and then roasting corn would certainly increase the protein content. I assume there would be changes to the carbohydrate content . But, now we're getting into proper brewing techniques. 

I've only pasteurized cracked corn and added probiotics.

Corn has it's own natural microbes that, when allowed to grow in natural succession, will eventually lead to lactic acid fermentation. However, the initial phases have been described as smelling like puke.


----------



## rniles

squarepeg said:


> i have mentioned in several posts that i was convinced that bees feeding on real honey would have a much better chance of staying healthy as compared to those feeding on syrup.
> 
> my thinking was that they would be getting the vital nutrients in real honey (not present in syrup) that are necessary for their immune systems to function optimally.
> 
> now i'm not so sure about that.
> 
> after revisiting randy oliver's papers on bee nutrition, i have come to understand that those vital nutrients for longevity and immunity come primarily from pollen.


I liked Mr. Oliver's article - and I think if covered pollen well. I DO think that we still overlook the importance of nectar in bee nutrition and seem to take a pass at it's importance so that we don't feel bad feeding bees plain old sugar water.

_Although its main ingredient is natural sugar (i.e., sucrose (table sugar), glucose, and fructose),[9] nectar is a brew of many chemicals. ... All twenty of the normal amino acids found in protein have been identified in various nectars, with alanine, arginine, serine, proline, glycine, isoleucine, threonine, and valine being the most prevalent_

_Amino acids are the second most abundant nectar solutes after sugar and contain a wide variety of both essential and non-essential amino acids as well as some non-protein amino acids._

_Other substances reported in nectar include organic acids, terpenes, alkaloids, flavonoids, glycosides, vitamins, phenolics, and oils._

Concerning metals, the "_major cation of most nectars_ ..." was Potassium (K) makes up 35 to 74 percent of the total cation content. Averages of other notable cations were Salt (Na) (17.9%), Calcuim (Ca) (12.8%), Magnesium (Mg) (5.9%), Aluminium (Al) (4.6%), Iron (Fe) (1.2%), and Manganese (Mn) (0.8%)

I often think about why honey from different nectar sources have different colors and flavours and how those compounds interact with each other and with compounds found in the pollen that they collect. The bees aren't just drinking sugar water. Maybe all these elements can be found in pollen alone, I do not know. I think nectar and honey composition still needs to be in our thoughts.

http://www.bb.iastate.edu/necgex/Nectar.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=0L...lhVRso0#v=onepage&q=Nectar components&f=false
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nectar
Heinrich, G. (1989) Analysis of cations in nectars by means of a laser microprobe mass analyser (LAMMA). Beitr. Biol. Pflanz 64:293-308


----------



## WLC

rniles:

I don't disagree with any of the above.

There are plenty of beekeepers experiencing drought conditions in their area. So, they'll say, "What nectar?"

I'm trying to improve the nutrition of my feed so that I can store up some honey supers for fall and winter feeding. Unfortunately, I can't get anywhere near the amount I need unless my hives have built up. Which means feeding them.

It's a catch22.


----------



## rniles

Hi WLC ...and I wasn't disagreeing with you either ...and i like the discussion on probiotics. I was just trying to say that the sugar syrup that we feed them, when we must feed, has to be something better than plain ol' sugar water. That along with all the science that is going into pollen substitute, we need to try to figure out a better _nectar substitute_ as well.

It's a great discussion and I've been enjoying reading through it.


----------



## squarepeg

hi rniles...

i'm still a big proponent of avoiding syrup except to prevent starvation, (and perhaps to help a package get some comb drawn).

i'm going on 2 years now without feeding except for a very small amount of syrup i gave to a couple of late swarms caught last year.

but apparantly that wasn't good enough as i lost a handful of queens over the winter, and i'm thinking it may have been from protein deficiency.

so my rethinking is really more that i'll be paying more attention to pollen stores this year, and i'm considering supplementing.

thanks for the reply.


----------



## Acebird

WLC said:


> I can't get anywhere near the amount I need unless my hives have built up. Which means feeding them.


In one post you said your bees are being poisoned. It is hard to build up a population under those conditions. I don't think feeding is the answer, but I don't want you to stop what you are doing because you could come up with a much better organic feed than what is available today. Obviously I would choose non GMO corn as a base for myself.


----------



## WLC

Acebird:

Who sprays an entire section of Manhattan, where over 100,000 people live, the first week of September, with Anvil 10-10?

Haven't they heard of Bt? You know, mosquito bits and dunks. Haven't they heard of the pollinator crisis?

Jeeze.

You do know that they sell organic corn? They also sell organic sugar, milk, and of course, probiotics.

You can do your own organic 'thing' if you got some land and maybe a goat or two.


----------



## JSL

Interesting thread to read! Bee season just doesn't allow much time to catch up on Bee Source.

I think it was Radar's response to the McDonald’s comment that I liked. All foods provide nutrients, but your doctor will say all things in moderation are best. 

Also several references to the theory of nutritional wisdom, even as “advanced” as we humans are we do not really seem to be able to select a diet based on its nutritional value, and bees are no different. There are a limited number of taste receptors and bees eat what tastes good. Just like those doughnuts I get every once and a while…


----------



## thenance007

Here are two more references that might be useful to those following this thread:

"Bee food: the chemistry and nutritional value of nectar, pollen and mixtures of the two"

http://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/18769/Nicolson_Bee%282011%29.pdf?sequence=1

"Influence of Some Protein Diets on the Longevity and Some Physiological Conditions of Honeybee"

http://www.scialert.net/abstract/?doi=jbs.2006.734.737 Then click "Fulltext pdf"


----------



## squarepeg

cool article 007.

the last sentence:

"More data on the amino
acid composition of fresh pollens are needed to
assess the nutritional significance of these pollen
choices at the colony level: are they due to floral
constancy or the selection of complementary
pollens to compensate for amino acid imbalances?"

i though it was generally accepted that the bees preferentially seek out the pollens needed to balance out the amino acids. looks like that assumption is open to question.

it reinforces my feeling that i may want to provide a balanced supplement when they are rearing the long lived wintering bees.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

squarepeg said:


> it reinforces my feeling that i may want to provide a balanced supplement when they are rearing the long lived wintering bees.


"may want to provide a balanced supplement"


----------



## WLC

I felt that the lactic acid bacteria in the fermented culture would provide the balanced nutrients. There's all kinds of nutrients in LAB cells.


----------



## JSL

A balanced supplement/substitute is even more essential during rapid colony expansion and brood rearing, spring or fall... It takes a lot of food and nutrients to feed all of those little mouths!


----------



## squarepeg

well said keith (quoting me  ) and joe.

joe, do you think that the high number of queens i lost (6/18 died in late winter/early spring before drones were available) may have been due to poor nutrition (there was no lack of honey).


----------



## squarepeg

well said keith (quoting me  ) and joe.

joe, do you think that the high number of queens i lost (5/18 died in late winter/early spring before drones were available) may have been due to poor nutrition (there was no lack of honey).


----------



## Oldtimer

I'm not Joe, but for me, I would doubt the queen would be lost due to poor nutrition, at least at the time she died, the queen normally is cared for best they can even in a starving hive, she also has better bodily reserves.

Queens who disappear middle of winter in a seemingly healthy hive, are mostly due to poor mating, chemical treatments used during her rearing, varroa, or old age. 

You will also sometimes see a sickly looking queen, which could be caused by many factors even rough handling, still laying OK, but you know she won't live long. The bees do not always supersede such a queen and so can get caught in winter if she dies. But for that to happen to 6/18 would seem unlikely.

I also had a site once where the bees constantly went queenless. Never figured it out, it's still a mystery. But eventually, I pulled all the hives out and abandoned the site.


----------



## squarepeg

interesting ot, and many thanks. i always value what you have to say.

poor mating could be a real possibility. varroa could also be a factor as these weren't treated and it was before i learned how to do a mite count.  however the workers made it and i didn't see much frass in the combs.

the losses were split between two yards.

i am just trying to understand the connection between nutrition and longevity for the queens and the long lived winter bees.


----------



## JSL

Squarepeg,

Based on what I see, if it was poor nutrition, it would have been due to poor nutrition during the queen rearing process. In my area, the optimal queen rearing window is generally May and June. Queens raised during that time have the greatest survivability and longevity. It is spring time with plenty of natural resources and supplement for the cold wet spells to feed the cell builders. 

This is different from the physiological change that takes place when a colony begins transitioning to “winter” bees, which surprisingly starts as early as July in some years, in my area.


----------



## JSL

WLC

Lacto bacillus does contribute to the nutritional content of pollen or bee bread, but also offer some preservative properties with lowering the pH, perhaps that is more significant? Similarly, yeast is a good source of nutrients, and is readily available in the correct particle size. However, for all the good qualities that yeast provides as a good nutrient source, it is pretty far out of balance in some nutrients…


----------



## squarepeg

understood joe, and that really helps alot. many thanks!


----------



## WLC

> Lacto bacillus does contribute to the nutritional content of pollen or bee bread, but also offer some preservative properties with lowering the pH, perhaps that is more significant?


JSL:
I'll agree and go further. Since the pH of sugar syrup/HFCS isn't near the phsiological pH of the Honeybee gut, pollen, or honey for that matter, it can put an undue stress on the bees.

There's a metabolic price to pay somewhere along the line to bring down the pH.



> Similarly, yeast is a good source of nutrients, and is readily available in the correct particle size. However, for all the good qualities that yeast provides as a good nutrient source, it is pretty far out of balance in some nutrients…


I wouldn't rule out using different organisms along with LAB. For example, some amount of yeast fermentation could be beneficial.

However, the main goal of providing a low pH environment as well as beneficial strains of LAB could go a long way towards improving colony health and nutrition on their own.

So, right now, I'm simply focused on the question of Honeybees accepting Beegurt, or even sour mash wash, without any adverse affects. I hope to see, at the very least, that comb building, colony buildup, or pollen/honey storage aren't adversely affected.

I'm also hopeful that lactic acid production via live culture feed will be able to mitigate pests, parasites, and pathogens.

I only use 'food grade' treatments. 

Live culture may offer a hat trick: low cost feeds, better nutrition, and improved colony health without 'chemicals'.

Those are my current thoughts on the Beegurt experiment.


----------



## rniles

Nice post - thanks!

_One possible benefit of these secondary metabolites in nectar may be antibiotic activity against microbes (Adler 2000), a
function that is shared by proteins in nectar, termed nectarins (Thornburg et al. 2003).
_


thenance007 said:


> Here are two more references that might be useful to those following this thread:
> 
> "Bee food: the chemistry and nutritional value of nectar, pollen and mixtures of the two"
> 
> http://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/18769/Nicolson_Bee%282011%29.pdf?sequence=1
> 
> "Influence of Some Protein Diets on the Longevity and Some Physiological Conditions of Honeybee"
> 
> http://http://www.scialert.net/qredirect.php?doi=jbs.2006.734.737&linkid=pdf


----------



## squarepeg

007, the link to the second paper didn't work for me, i got it here:

http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/alqarni/D...on longivity and physiological conditions.pdf

fixin' to check it out, thanks!


----------



## squarepeg

hmmm, not much there. even though it was a lab vs. field experiment i wouldn't mind seeing the full text.


----------



## thenance007

Thanks, SP. Try this link, then click on "full pdf" at the bottom. Don't know why that link doesn't work. . .

http://www.scialert.net/abstract/?doi=jbs.2006.734.737


----------



## Chemguy

WLC said:


> All I need to do to approximate the lactic acid concentration in sour feed is use a good pH meter, the ph, the pKa of lactic acid, and a formula (Henderson Hasselbalch).


Assuming the acidity is due only to the presence of lactic acid...


----------



## JSL

WLC,

Very interesting! Finding a palatable and nutritious diet is always the fun part. 

I may have missed the details of your Beegurt, but it sounds like a similar type of substance I use as a liquid diet for cell builders at times. My biggest challenge with using a liquid protein diet is the stability. I do not use preservatives, so it does not have a long shelf life, but the bees like it. However, too much fermentation and the bees do not like it, but the SHB sure are attracted to it.


----------



## WLC

JSL:

It's simply whole milk, 1:1 sugar syrup, and probiotic LAB.

I consider the live bacteria to be the main nutrient source. The lactic acid may have multiple beneficial properties as well.

It's a live feed that replaces lactic acid as it evaporates.


----------



## squarepeg

(raises hand)

i thought of another question joe. you mentioned the bees transitioning to making winter bees happening in july sometimes.

i would have thought that it would be the last few rounds of brood before the the first frost.

how does one determine that they are transitioning to making winter bees?


----------



## thenance007

That one study I quoted indicates that the acceptance of substitute plus 5% pollen was much higher than beebread or substitute w/o pollen. That would mean that it would only take 1 lb. of pollen to significantly improve acceptance of 20 lbs. of substitute. Since the pollen might also provide missing nutrients and micronutrients, it would seem worthwhile to trap some pollen in the Spring when there is a good variety and freeze it to add it to the Aug/Sept. feeding. Speaking for hobbyists, not commercial. A pollen trap runs at most $75, some are much cheaper and would seem to be a good investment. I could also see rubbing it into empty cells as shown in Mike Palmer's video and putting it next to the brood in winter. Even if as Walt says, they will fill the lower broodbox with beebread for fall brood in ideal circumstances, that box is empty all winter and they would have no source of pollen/beebread until Spring to rebuild their stores or for the small amount of brood born over winter.


----------



## JSL

Squarepeg,

For a graduate school project, I marked a large number of newly emerged workers every week to use them later in their lives for a foraging study. Over the years I noticed that a progressively smaller proportion of marked workers would leave the hive to become foragers. They were not necessarily winter bees in July, but would be “nest bees”. Some years it started in early July, others it would be late July or August.

Joe


----------



## squarepeg

i see. so by virtue of not foraging their longevity was extended. i'm trying to figure out when the best time might be to make a supplement available when the overwintering bees are being reared. i am assuming that the honey supers should be off if i am giving supplement. for me, i remove my last capped honey just before the fall flow starts here. i guess i'll just have to observe the brood rearing through the summer dearth, and try to notice whether or not it picks up as we get into our fall flow. again, many thanks!


----------



## WLC

After reading some of the comments made (both on and off the board) regarding the types of strains involved in the fermentation of pollen and honey, I'm making up a batch of Beegurt using a few types of raw honey (unpasteurized or filtered) as the starter culture rather than probiotics made for human consumption.

The bees have taken another pint or so of the Beegurt that I've given them using probiotics. I would like to give them a few more days before I pull the feeders and examine how much was consumed during 1 week.

My feeling is that it probably doesn't smell quite right to the bees.
Maybe using the bacterial cultures found in raw honey would improve on that.

It has rained at least part of 8 out of the last eleven days. Today, they were bringing in alot of pollen.

I hope to be able to examine my test hives in good weather to see how well they have withstood the Beegurt.

I did put out a small animal waterer with sour mash wash, But there have been no takers so far. Not a bee took interest. I may want to change the culture I've used to make sour mash as well.


----------



## thenance007

WLC - Is there any way to color your BeeGurt with something non-toxic so that you can track better where it is being stored in the hive and such? Beet juice? Just a thought!


----------



## WLC

I was thinking red cabbage juice. It turns red at an acid pH.

On second thought, some food coloring would be an easier way to track it. Blue food coloring maybe?


----------



## Keith Jarrett

WLC said:


> Blue coloring maybe?


BLUE..... lets not get carried away here.  lol


----------



## WLC

Red cabbage juice gets degraded.

I'm not so sure about food coloring.

Does anyone normally see anything blue in a cell?


----------



## thenance007

Yea, yellow, orange and red could be pollen and beebread. I vote blue:applause:


----------



## thenance007

I thought honey was antibiotic. Doesn't that mean it has killed the live bacteria? Or is it just the concentration keeping spores from germinating? I know the nectar is inoculated. My understanding is that the bees coat the beebread with honey to protect it. If you need some beebread, I can send you a chunk. . .


----------



## WLC

The microbes are dormant.

I've used organic honey, unpasteurized/unfiltered, to inoculate media made from 1/2 gallon 1:1 sucrose + 1/2 gallon whole milk.

So, I now have 1 gallon inoculated with honey from NY and NH, and another gallon inoculated with honey from provence-France, the Himalayas, and Brazilian 'Killer Bees'.

I can essentially try out strains found in honey from around the world. All at once should I choose to do so.

They're in the inucubator at a little over 30 degrees C.


----------



## StudiedWell

Is 100% carbon free organic pure cane sugar have less solids? (which I guess solids cause honey bee dysentery when they can't poop)

and is honey bee dysentery a problem when the bees can fly for a bathroom break?

I am new to this whole bee keeping and just feed my bees some Pure Florida Cane Sugar syrup.

In my welcome post somebody shared a link stating that could raise a problem. From more research I found that feeding organic cane causes them to have to poop more and in winter time that can be a problem.

http://www.honeybeesuite.com/is-organic-sugar-better-for-bees/


Thanks


----------



## hpm08161947

I am not trying to be funny, but sugar will never be carbon free... it is made of carbon! White cane or beet sugar will have less residuals than brown sugar.


----------



## WLC

How do you make bee feed organic?

Hmmm.

Maybe start with the bacteria in honey/pollen?


----------



## StudiedWell

It is funny.

Its only a footprint thing.


----------



## WLC

I took out the gallon feeders containing the fermented 1:1 sugar syrup/whole milk/probiotics.
They took a quart from each feeder since 4pm last Thursday. That's a little better than the pint they took from 1:1 syrup the week before.

I did see a real difference in the type of fermentation that occurred in the 1/2 gallon whole milk/1/2 gallon 1:1 syrup/honey inoculant cultures.

When I used organic honey from NY and NH, the fermentation looked pretty much like that when probiotics were used. No gas produced, and an almost buttermilk like aroma.

However, when I used organic honey from France/Brazil/and the Himalayas, I got what I would describe as heterofermentation with gas production. The milk solids seperated completely on the top 1/2 of the culture. It had a sharper odor than the other ones.

I'll put them into the feeders and back into the hives shortly.

The bees appear to be unharmed, building comb, and foraging for whatever pollen and nectar are out there. Plenty of pollen coming in.

So, I'm seeing no harm done from live culture feed. The bees seem to be taking it better than 1:1 syrup alone, and I have noted an obvious difference in the type of fermentation produced by using different honeys as a source of inoculant.


----------



## thenance007

Interesting! Did they ever take any of the clear liquid or just the white part on top? Maybe all that gas is what makes those Brazilian killer bees so irritable?


----------



## WLC

It looks like they took the white part on top.

The liquid below is clear. I tested the pH with a hydrion strip and it is in the pH 3 range!

I can see why they didn't consume it.

However, we know that there's lactic acid evaporating off of it.

The liquid from the heterofermentive batch, which included killer bee honey, tested in the pH 5-6 range. It looks very different than the probiotic batch.

I left a batch of it in a small container not far from the hives. I noticed ants were attracted to it and apparently feeding. No bees fed though.

My thoughts are that I need to make the live culture more attractive to the bees.

I do know that brood pheromone also consists of FAEE (fatty acid ethyl esters).

I include some vegetable shortening, it could make it more attractive via transesterification.

If there are yeasts present, perhaps the FAEEs could be created more directly from the shortening.

That being said, I like the idea of putting test batches outside the hive to see if it can attract bees during a flow.

However, they did take live culture. Hmmm....


----------



## thenance007

Wow, I'm amazed at the pH of the clear liquid--did you taste it? Was there any sweetness left or did the fermentation use up all the sugar? If it used up all the sugar, I doubt it would appeal to the bees. You might need to reduce the sugar during the fermentation to stop it at whatever pH you want, pasteurize it to kill the LAB, then add sugar back in for sweetness. (and probiotics?) Hate the idea of pasteurization, but in mead making the fermentation goes until either the alcohol concentration kills the yeast or they run out of sugar. Don't know if bacteria respond the same as yeast. Wonder what you could use to raise the pH back up that wouldn't hurt the bees.


----------



## rbees

squarepeg said:


> according to the article the really good stuff that promotes immunity and longevity (vitellogenin) is stored within the bees themselves, and it takes a long time to build up those stores.


I've said this before here and I'll say it again. vitellogenin is the fountain of youth for honeybees


----------



## WLC

I'm not sure if I should discard the low pH feed idea. The lactic acid may be acting as a form of mite control. I need to make it more palatable/attractive. There were bees on the feeder ladders when I took them out.

vg again? Maybe live culture could increase vg if it contains the right signal molecules/nutrients. That's why I'm interested in adding Crisco to make FAEE (brood pheromone). But, I'd need yeast present for ethanol.


----------



## WLC

Weather is a factor here. I won't be able to do much till next week.

There's no feed in the hives at this time.

However, I did get a shipment of 24 hour turbo yeast, and I put up a batch of 1:2 syrup with the turbo yeast and a heaping helping of Crisco shortening.

I'm hopeful that it will do several things: create FAEE (pre-capping brood pheromone) as well as some ethanol that can form ethyl lactate when mixed with the probiotic lactic acid batch.

Perhaps it will make the live culture feed more palatable.

While both lactic acid and ethanol have been used as mite treatments on their own, the FAEE is a biological 'dirty trick'. A recent paper has shown that mites use it as a signal to time their egg laying in brood cells.

You could say that if this doesn't work as a feed, it might work as a live culture mite treatment.


----------



## Brad Bee

WLC, you lost me about 2 weeks ago. Are you making bee-gurt or bee-meth?


----------



## squarepeg

rbees said:


> I've said this before here and I'll say it again. vitellogenin is the fountain of youth for honeybees


what makes you say that rbees?


----------



## thenance007

WLC can you translate the part about the FAEE into layman's terms? Are you talking about plain Crisco or are you making something out of it? Is it a simple recipe or a chemist's nightmare? I've heard of using Crisco in the hive but thought it was in relation to small hive beetles. Have you tasted your beegurt mixes to ensure that they are still sweet (and therefore attractive to bees)? With yeast I know that the fermented product goes on until it uses up all the sugar resulting in beer (like bees, I like sugar, beer not so much). 

You obviously have a lot of valuable knowledge you could share with those of us who aren't as deeply schooled in science as you, and maybe one of the most useful things you are doing is bridging the gap between science and real world applications. It is really useful when you add "dummy it down" terminology and explanations that we can understand. Not easy for a scientist who eats 17 letter words for breakfast, I imagine. When I try to read the scientific papers I'm usually able to understand the abstract and conclusion, but everything in between is over my pay grade. But even just your references to things I'm not aware of has made me do a lot of searching and reading, so that in itself is a good thing. Thanks!


----------



## WLC

Crisco is shortening made of certain types of oils. You can mix crisco and ethanol, and under the right conditions, make something called an ester (alcohol bonded to organic acids- like fatty acids/lactic acid), AKA:essential oils.

So, FAEE is really just essential oils, made from ethanol and crisco. Ethanol and lacic acid should also form esters.

What happens when I mix crisco and the different fermentation cultures is...

a whole lot of alcohols and organic acids switching partners.

So, hopefully the essentual oils make it more palatable.

FAEEs where found to be present in precapped larvae and were also found to be a signal for mites to lay eggs. It could be a useful mite treatment besides the lactic acid/ethanol.

So, there's some science to say that it might be helpful to make FAEE/essential oils. I will test out some small batches to see which ones the bees find attractive and any other observable effects.

When I removed the feed, it smelled like lactic acid and tested in the low pH 3 range. No, I didn't taste it myself, but it's a thought.

Don't let the different types of fermentation, lactic acid/ethanol, or the different types of essential oils/esters, FAEE/LAEE, throw you.

I hope to demonstrate that live culture can be a useful tool to beekeepers.

It just hasn't happened quite yet.


----------



## squarepeg

is it true that the average fat in pollen runs about 10%

i wonder why type of vegetable fats (lipids) they are?


----------



## 779Hybrid410

WLC,

Instead of Crisco, perhaps coconut oil?

Cheers,


----------



## wcubed

All this discussion about the advantages of fermentation is over my head, but thought I might add that the bees have their own version built in, which we tend to ignore.

In posts 14 & 32, we described the incorporation of the pollen box in our full-season mngmt. The long-term pollen stored in the pollen box is quite different from the feed pollen stored adjacent to the broodnest, or the excess feed pollen encapsulated under honey as the broodnest recedes during and after main flow.

The literature uses the words pollen and "bee bread" pretty much interchangably. I arbitrarily call the long-term pollen stored in the pollen box bee bread. It is different in several ways, and I believe the differences can be described as effects of deliberate fermentation. First, it's only filled to roughly half depth of a brood cell. Could that be to control the batch volume of whatever they do to convert the pollen to bee bread? (fermentation)

Secondly, bee bread is quite ugly. Quite dark colored and looks wet. Looks like shades of wet dirt. The bright colors of pollen are not seen. Feed pollen above, even that under honey, is slightly off color, but not in the range of bee bread. We conclude that merely adding honey does not make bee bread. So, what IS the process?

No question in my mind that available "bee bread" in Aug. improves wintering. Where are the scientists when you need them? They have a unique skill in avoiding anything in my management approach.

Walt


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## BernhardHeuvel

Walt, the process is roughly as follows: 

1) Bees collect pollen. During flight and collection bees add lactic acid bacteria and some yeasts. Some yeasts also are present on pollen already.

2) Packed into the cell the yeasts start fermenting. Producing vitamin B and growth hormons. 

3) The growth hormons trigger the lactic acid bacteria to explode, which they do. Honeybees carry special lactic acid bacteria that can be found in honeybees only. At least six lactic acid bacteria species are exclusively found in honeybees. The lactic acid bacteria (LAB) produce vitamin K and are the bees one and only source for vitamin K. Of course the LAB produce lactic acid which makes the bee bread long lasting. 

4) Fungi also are working the bee bread all the time. Especially Aspergillus niger and Penicillium. The fungi produce sterols, antibiotics, fatty acids and enzymes. Fatty acids are needed for immune system, enzymes for breaking down food and some toxins. (Guess what fungicides do to bee bread fermentation...)

Bee bread is sometimes covered with honey for winter consumption. (Hidden bee bread stores.) This is what they raise brood from in the midst of winter. (Plus the fat body.)


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## BernhardHeuvel

There is plenty of scientific research on microbes and honeybees. 

You might read this one as a start: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0032962#s3

There is a short but interesting summary of the current state of research in the book>> Honey Bee Colony Health: Challenges and Sustainable Solutions (Contemporary Topics in Entomology (CRC))


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## WLC

I've read the first paper, but I haven't had to chance to order the book yet. I'm debating if I want it on my shelf, or if I should stick to gathering electronic copies of papers into various folders.

I do like the work being done by Vasquez, et al. .

A large part of my 'rethinking' revolves around the Honeybee microbiota, probiotics, and my own interest in how I can improve my own bee feed using fermentation and food grade 'substrates/reactants'.


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## wcubed

Bernhard, 
Thanks for the description. It's more complicated than I suspected. 
Walt


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## thenance007

Walt, if the beekeepers who use deeps or double deeps add a shallow with comb under the stack in early Spring so the bees can fill it with bee bread for the Fall brood rearing, that should hopefully help them improve their overwintering? So the bees go into Winter only with the stores in their fatbodies, none in the hive? At what point might it be useful to add more pollen sub/bee bread/pollen to the hive to make sure they go into Spring strong? Would freezing a few frames of bee bread in Spring and returning it to the brood nest either in late Fall or maybe in January/February when we checkerboard help in case they have used up their fat stores by then? Or do they use fresh pollen for the Spring broodrearing?

Bernard, from your post it does sound like WLC is on the right track with his fermentation to improve nutrient availability. letting the LAB convert the unfermented food into a much higher quality food. But it sounds like it might be preferable to inoculate the feed with bee bread over honey? Is the microbe load significantly different in honey or nectar than in pollen and bee bread? Or do they just serve different purposes? Based on your knowledge do you believe it would be possible to create a fermented supplement based on bee bread that would enhance bee nutrition when they need it?

There are so many of you on this forum with different areas of expertise that could provide various pieces of the puzzle and help gain a more complete picture and practical solutions to the huge challenges our bees are facing. Thank you for sharing that knowledge with each other and allowing us hobbyist/laypersons to watch it unfold--it is fascinating!


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## squarepeg

thenance007 said:


> There are so many of you on this forum with different areas of expertise that could provide various pieces of the puzzle and help gain a more complete picture and practical solutions to the huge challenges our bees are facing. Thank you for sharing that knowledge with each other and allowing us hobbyist/laypersons to watch it unfold--it is fascinating!


very well said 007! many thanks to all for contributing.

i have read that the last rounds of worker brood reared in the fall are fed jelly that is several times richer than that fed in the spring and summer. this special food (almost as good as what a queen cell gets) results in the larger fat bodies and allows for the longevity that the wintering bees need.


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## thenance007

" Fungi also are working the bee bread all the time. Especially Aspergillus niger and Penicillium. The fungi produce sterols, antibiotics, fatty acids and enzymes. Fatty acids are needed for immune system, enzymes for breaking down food and some toxins. (Guess what fungicides do to bee bread fermentation...)" Bernhard

Michael Bush has been trying to get beekeepers to understand this for a long time:

"There are many microflora that live in the bees and in the colony. These vary from fungi to bacteria to yeasts. Many are necessary for the digestion of pollen or the maintenance of a healthy digestive tract by crowding out pathogens that would otherwise take over. Even seemingly benign ones and sometimes even mildly pathogenic ones often serve a beneficial purpose by supplanting otherwise deadly ones. . .

How much do we upset the balance of this rich ecosystem when applying anti-bacterials such as tylan or terramycin and anti-fungals such as Fumidil? Even essential oils and organic acids have anti-bacterial and anti-fungal effects. Then we kill off many of the mites and insects with acaracides.

After totally unbalancing this complex society of diverse organisms with no regard for benefit or not and contaminating the wax that we reuse and put in the hives as foundation, we are surprised to find that the bees are failing. Under such circumstances I would be surprised to find them flourishing!"

I realize Michael would probably say we shouldn't mess with their microflora at all, and in an ideal world, I would agree. But in the real world, it isn't likely that we can convince everyone to just stop all treatments. Just like taking probiotics after a round of antibiotics to get our digestive flora back in sync, I see this line of investigation as something that could potentially help the bees rebuild their flora, making them and their hive healthier. There is much research and consensus at the scientific level showing the benefits of microbes and fermentation in the hive, yet that research hasn't been translated into helping our hives--the scientists keep churning out research and the beekeepers keep doing what they were taught works. 

What this thread seems to have evolved into is an attempt to take those theories and create a practical strategy useful for every beekeeper, big and small for enhancing our bees' nutrition and hive environment using microbes and fermentation. Kudos to everyone contributing, and if you have just been watching in the background and have an idea that might help (you know who you are!), please join in--surely lots of us have tried things that either have helped or not, so eliminating bad strategies is just as useful as offering good ones!


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## jim lyon

The problem with getting a balanced discussion on this topic is that the folks who feed a lot of good quality sub to their bees are so doggone busy shaking packs, selling nucs or putting on supers that they don't have the time to contribute to the discussion.


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## Keith Jarrett

this was on the commercial thread,

02-07-2013, 06:02 AM #39 Keith Jarrett 
View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Send Email 
Join Dateec 2006
Location:Amador County, Calif
Posts:2,777 Re: Fumagilian-B 
Originally Posted by borada bee doc 
Anyone with research backed ideas, on the concept of nosema treatment, to help sort this out? 

YES, "ok ok ok Jimmy, I will make this short"

We have a micro-flora builder in our sub which competes with the nosema spores. NUTRA-BEE feed supplements


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## Keith Jarrett

jim lyon said:


> so doggone busy shaking packs, selling nucs or putting on supers


& buying breakfeast.


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## WLC

There's a bunch of work showing that certain Honeybee gut microbes can crowd out AFB, EFB, and Nosema. The same microbes can probably do the same with trypanosomes as well.

If you use antibiotics, rather than probiotics, it can certainly become an issue.

This article helps to explain why I cultured LAB with 1:1 syrup and whole milk:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188

The milk provides starter nutrients for the LAB. It does work when the syrup/milk are inoculated with raw honey as well. Yes, I think that bee bread will work too.


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## thenance007

It would seem that not only are the good microbes important inside the bee's gut and honey crop, but also in their hive. I assume that the nosema, AFB, EFB, and viruses that infect/weaken the hive are present on the comb whether they grow there or are spread by the bees. The bees clean out the cells prior to the queen laying eggs in it. Wouldn't it make sense that spraying the empty comb with a light probiotic sugar solution might improve the balance, helping outcompete/reduce populations of the bad microbes and act as a protective biofilm? Additionally in cleaning it off, the bees would also be inoculated. I'm thinking of a one time or annual (after treatments?) treatment or as boxes are added to the stack. I've done it and it certainly didn't seem to hurt my hive--have no way of knowing how much it helped but they are healthy and booming.


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## WLC

tn007: I think that your approach is a reasonable one. Now if we could only ID LAB that eat/inhibit viruses.


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## wcubed

Nancy,
Adding an empty below the broodnest doesn't help. First year, added a shallow of foundation - ignored. Second year, added a shallow of drawn comb - they put some feed pollen in the upper edge, less than an inch. Not what I was looking for. In the third year, when a shallow of brood was moved down, suddenly had what I wanted - a box filled with bee bread, and more remarkably, on all colonies of mixed genetics. Had found a way that was common to their basic instincts. And I'm not natuarally lucky.

It seemed apparent to me that there was no deliberate storing of pollen in the fall for winter brood rearing. What pollen they had at broodnest closeout was some residual feed pollen left over from fall brood rearing - open cells and bright colors. That put me on the path to finding a way to offset the effects of Lang hive design.

CCD and renewed interest in nutrition brought out the description of the role of vitellogenin. I thought that solved the puzzle of no deliberate fall storage of pollen. Maybe not.

Im a little sceptical of Bernhard's report of trapped or hidden bee bread in the overhead capped honey. When we sold honey, we often took honey from directly above the broodnest. We swapped the partial or unfinished frames from the top of the stack for their capped wintering honey, leaving enough to feed them through the summer doldrums. I think that if there were any bee bread in those frames, it would have come to our attention. Maybe not, but we handled a lot of drawn comb frames prior to the next season use.

Walt


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## thenance007

WLC: 
Maybe Olive Leaf Extract? It is apparently a great antibiotic, antifungal and antiviral that doesn't kill beneficial bacteria:

http://www.about-olive-leaf-extract.com/natural-antivirals.html
"Olive leaf can inhibit or destroy a wide range of harmful bacteria, fungi and yeasts while allowing beneficial bacteria to multiply. This has been found in various experiments, some of which can be done at home.

For example, by adding olive leaf extract to a range of different yoghurt cultures, it can be seen that the formation of yoghurt is not hindered, meaning the bacteria used in the culture were not harmed."

"In short, olive leaf extract ingredients block a virus' life cycle, stop it multiplying then call up immune cells to demolish it. It will likely do this to a greater or lesser degree to any viral infection, and so offers much hope to those who wish to avoid infections or those who need help in combating them."

The website also explains how to extract it and make tinctures. What do you think?


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## squarepeg

walt, what is was the timing with respect to the onset of main flow that you typically move the shallow of brood to the bottom?

i.e. would it be too late at the end of main flow, say at honey harvest?


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## wcubed

Haven't tried it that late in the season and would not guess at the results. It seemed importent to do it early in the buildup while pollen is plentiful. We tried to get it done, weather permitting, about two weeks after checkerboarding. When CBed, brood just seems to jump into and through those shallows (less honey to consume). When seasons were predictable, (early 90s) we CBed in late Feb. and early Mar. was broodnest explosion time. This spring, brood nest expansion was stagnent in Mar.

Walt

There was a beek in CAL who reported that he placed a medium of drawn comb under his brood boxes for dead-air space in the fall. His bees filled it with pollen. Would not expect that to happen, here, but who knows?


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## Andrew Dewey

After doing some reading in the CRC book I'm confused. Anyone care to see if they can help straighten me out?

In the fall in our area bees gather a great deal of pollen, primarily Golden Rod & Aster. In order for the bees to use (digest) it the pollen first needs to be converted to bee bread. Is that correct? If I read correctly the pollen is initially mixed with honey to start the fermentation process by the forager. How long does it take to make bee bread? {As a followup: If a colony does not have stored pollen reserves and/or bee bread in the spring, how long does it take them to "process" fresh pollen collected - say from Red Maple}

So if I see a frame of multi-colored pollen in the fall, what exactly am I looking at? Pollen that the bees are storing with the intent of converting to bee bread at a later time? How long is pollen stored in this way viable? (As a followup: if I find a frame of stored pollen in a spring dead out (not observably from a brood disease), is there benefit in giving that to another colony?) How long is bee bread good for?

Academic papers often are hard for me to understand and to comprehend them I need to ask questions in terms/concepts I know.


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## WLC

tn007:

I'm not sure why you would need to use an olive leaf tincture/extract in your hives.

I use food/feed grade supplements/treatments only. I don't think that olive leaf fits the description because I don't know what's in it, or if I'd want it to get into the honey even though I don't consume city honey myself.


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## thenance007

WLC, I have no intention of using olive leaf in my hives--don't feel a need for it. But for beeks who treat and lose hives to the viruses spread by varroa, it might be another tool--one of few that tackle viruses. I wouldn't even consider using it when honey supers are on as I understand the taste is bitter. Don't have a clue whether you would incorporate it in feed or spray it on comb. There are a number of essential oils that are useful, and when I read about olive leaf's properties it made me wonder if it might have a use. There are people who use grapefruit leaf and other leaves (mesquite?) in their smokers as a varroa treatment, and olive leaf seems to have similar properties.


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## wcubed

Good questions, Andrew.


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## jim lyon

thenance007 said:


> " Fungi also are working the bee bread all the time. Especially Aspergillus niger and Penicillium. The fungi produce sterols, antibiotics, fatty acids and enzymes. Fatty acids are needed for immune system, enzymes for breaking down food and some toxins. (Guess what fungicides do to bee bread fermentation...)" Bernhard
> 
> Michael Bush has been trying to get beekeepers to understand this for a long time:
> 
> "There are many microflora that live in the bees and in the colony. These vary from fungi to bacteria to yeasts. Many are necessary for the digestion of pollen or the maintenance of a healthy digestive tract by crowding out pathogens that would otherwise take over. Even seemingly benign ones and sometimes even mildly pathogenic ones often serve a beneficial purpose by supplanting otherwise deadly ones. . .
> 
> How much do we upset the balance of this rich ecosystem when applying anti-bacterials such as tylan or terramycin and anti-fungals such as Fumidil? Even essential oils and organic acids have anti-bacterial and anti-fungal effects. Then we kill off many of the mites and insects with acaracides.
> 
> After totally unbalancing this complex society of diverse organisms with no regard for benefit or not and contaminating the wax that we reuse and put in the hives as foundation, we are surprised to find that the bees are failing. Under such circumstances I would be surprised to find them flourishing!"


I need some clarification here. I can accept that many miticides will disrupt the fermentation process, at least during the time they are active but if the case is being made that stored bee bread is also being affected then I am not sure I can accept that. I see bees start brooding up quite well in the late winter and early spring long before any new pollen is being brought into the hive and they are doing it exclusively on the pollen that was stored in the comb prior to late fall treatments. It appears to me that if it is affected it sure dosent appear to be affecting it very much. As in any type of treatment the benefits and possible detrimental effects must be weighed against each other and the trade off of greatly reduced mite numbers and the disruption that they cause in the hive is by far the lesser of two evils.


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## WLC

I think that antiobiotics rather than acaracides are being referred to specifically. So, it does make sense if someone applies them for winter and spring foulbrood treatments. It looks like some essential oils are reportedly bacteriocidal/bacteriostatic. I don't know which ones specifically though.


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## Oldtimer

jim lyon said:


> if the case is being made that stored bee bread is also being affected then I am not sure I can accept that. I see bees start brooding up quite well in the late winter and early spring long before any new pollen is being brought into the hive and they are doing it exclusively on the pollen that was stored in the comb prior to late fall treatments. It appears to me that if it is affected it sure dosent appear to be affecting it very much.


Personally I think a lot of this stuff about killing beneficial bacteria, the 30 types of beneficial mites that (supposedly) live in our hives etc... is way overblown.

My hives or at least the treated ones, get several well known miticides used on them including essential oils, formic acid, and a wide variety. My hives are nothing if not brimming with good health, and always have been.

As to the 30 species of mite that supposedly live in our hives, I kept bees full time for years before we had to use any treatments at all, and never saw one of these mites once. Did that bother the bees, well, no.


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## WLC

My own feelings on following best/standard practices vs chemical free beekeeping...

If you run a business, you follow standard/best practices. There's not too much leeway there.

If you have the option of moving towards chemical-free/organic, and dare I say, probiotic methods of beekeeping, I think that you'll ultimately end up with a better way of keeping bees.

The fields of Honeybee nutrition, and even Honeybee microbiota has a lot of room for growth, in my opinion.

I feel that we can do better.

For example, I just applied probiotic fermentation nutrition to my hives without killing them.


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## JSL

Jim and Oldtimer,

I agree. The idea of adding probiotics has been around for a long time. They are not commonly used in the commercial animal feed industry for a reason. 

We experimented with them in diets and did not see a benefit, outside of a minimal preservation property due to the lowering of the pH. If the argument is being made that honey bees know best and natural is best, then why would introducing foreign inoculants into a diet benefit the bee? If pollen is naturally inoculated in the hive, wouldn’t it stand to reason that artificial diets may also be inoculated, either actively or passively?


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## WLC

JSL:

Here's the natural microflora issue as I see it.

There are a number of studies that have identified the Honeybee/hive microflora.

Unfortunately, there's alot of variance in what they are finding.

I don't think that we're anywhere near exhausting what's available in probiotics.

I took Honey from 3 continents and managed to get a very different kind of fermentation than I was able to get with US honey. Hetro vs **** fermentation, to be specific.


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## thenance007

Andrew and Walt,
I've tracked down some answers for you. The pollen itself is indigestible and must be fermented prior to use as food by the bees. The pollen is initially mixed with honey and enzymes and looks like pollen when it is packed into the cells. It undergoes 4 stages of fermentation, which takes 7 days, at which time fermentation is complete and the bee bread is sterile. Apparently, however, chemical processes continue just like other fermented foods and it continues to change color over time. It is usable by the bees for at least a year. So the various forms and colors of pollen you mentioned are various stages in the process, with the brown gooey stuff being the end product or older bee bread.

Jim, it appears that the fungicides would only be a problem during the 7 day fermentation period, which does involve fungi.

WLC: Since the beebread is sterile, I guess it wouldn't be a good inoculant. Maybe freshly packed pollen?


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## squarepeg

interesting stuff, thanks 007.


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## BernhardHeuvel

I experimented a lot with all sorts of supplements. Feeding essential oils and all sorts of things. 

I stumbled upon that study here: http://www.usab-tm.ro/fileadmin/fzb...HEMISTRY,BIOPHYSICS,MATHEMATICS/Marghitas.pdf

And I tried it myself: stinging nettle syrup for the bees. 

I have the impression that it strengthens and improves the health of the colonies. It is the only thing I feed as a supplement except pollen patties here and there. 

It is well worth a try - try yourself. I do it since 2011 and I like the results. Especially if the colony was weakened before it helps them getting back to full vigor. 

I gather some handful of nettles, pour boiling water over it and let it simmer for ten minutes. After cooling, I stirr sugar into the mixture. That's it.


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## WLC

tn007:

Neither beebread or honey is sterile. Investigators consistently isolate and grow microorganisms from both.


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## cerezha

BernhardHeuvel said:


> ...And I tried it myself: stinging nettle syrup for the bees.


 It is good for humans too! In Russia people made a salad and soup out of fresh young nettle's sprouts.



BernhardHeuvel said:


> ... I gather some handful of nettles, pour boiling water over it and let it simmer for ten minutes. ...


 In the boiling water add small cubes of potatoes, boil for a few minutes; meantime, chop carrots and onions - fry them in sunflower seed oil (good amount of oil); add nettles into the water, boil for a few minutes - color of the nettles must be bright green. At the end add fried carrots, onions and oil to the soup. Let it sit for 5-10 minutes. Serve with sour creme and chopped hard-boiled eggs.  
Exactly the same we made "green-soup" from * sorrel *, but the "green part" is 1/3 chopped green onions and 2/3 chopped * sorrel *. Fresh nettle is used in salads also.


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## hpm08161947

cerezha said:


> It is good for humans too! In Russia people made a salad and soup out of fresh young nettle's sprouts.
> 
> In the boiling water add small cubes of potatoes, boil for a few minutes; meantime, chop carrots and onions - fry them in sunflower seed oil (good amount of oil); add nettles into the water, boil for a few minutes - color of the nettles must be bright green. At the end add fried carrots, onions and oil to the soup. Let it sit for 5-10 minutes. Serve with sour creme and chopped hard-boiled eggs.
> Exactly the same we made "green-soup" from sorrow, but the "green part" is 1/3 chopped green onions and 2/3 chopped sorrow. Fresh nettle is used in salads also.


Where's the Vodka? Gotta be some Vodka in there somewhere....


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## Oldtimer

Weird. Part of my early childhood was in England, and there we had some concoction made from stinging nettles. Can't remember a whole lot about it but do remember collecting the stinging nettles to make it.

I have discussed this with other English, and looks like this is another thing from the past that is no longer done.


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## jim lyon

cerezha said:


> Exactly the same we made "green-soup" from sorrow, but the "green part" is 1/3 chopped green onions and 2/3 chopped sorrow.


Sorrow?


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## cerezha

hpm08161947 said:


> Where's the Vodka? ...


 
Well, yes, but with the appetizer or the second dish - never with the soup or desert! Appetizers - pickled mushrooms or hearings. Speaking about fermented food - we have long history of fermenting many things. My grandma for the each winter fermented the barrel of tomatoes, the barrel of cucumbers, the barrel of cabbage and sometime - watermelons. All these "pickles" (fermented or not) are great with ВОДКА. When I was in Russia last winter, my friend gave me the best gift possible - the jar of personally picked and picled mushrooms! The jar safely traveled in US and awaiting 4th of July to be tasted in Sequoya Natl Forest. Last year drunk ranger swallow all our precious pickled mushrooms, sad story 

Technically, we have two processes, which bothl translated in English as a "pickling":
- salting, fermenting in the presence of the salt (taste salty) to the stop, lactic acid is a preservative, no sterilization involved. Depends from "ingredients" fermented product tastes differently.
- actual "pickling" - salt and vinegar for preservation - no or very little fermentation involved. May need sterilization/pasteurization for storage.


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## cerezha

jim lyon said:


> Sorrow?


 Note: the proper name is *Sorrel!!! *I apologize for my English!

_(Not true: I believe so,)_ in Russian it is щавель (* sorrel *). Really beneficial herb - a lot of minerals and micro-elements! It is sour, people added it to the salads or just a few leaves on the sandwich. It is only one thing, which does not require any attention in my garden - grows itself! In my childhood we used to pick and eat wild щавель. "Green-soup" from щавель (1/3 green onions) is absolutely exclusive - highly recommended!


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## hpm08161947

cerezha said:


> I believe so, in Russian it is щавель. Really beneficial herb - a lot of minerals and micro-elements! It is sour, people added it to the salads or just a few leaves on the sandwich. It is only one thing, which does not require any attention in my garden - grows itself! In my childhood we used to pick and eat wild щавель. "Green-soup" from щавель (1/3 green onions) is absolutely exclusive - highly recommended!


B;y chance is it what we call Sorrel??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorrel


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## thenance007

WLC, I was shocked when I read that beebread is sterile. I got it from a Martha Gilliam research paper entitled "Microbiology of Pollen and Bee Bread: The Yeasts":

http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/1979/01/Apidologie_0044-8435_1979_10_1_ART0006.pdf

Much of this paper is beyond my pay grade but it looks like she cultured bee bread a maximum of 6 weeks old and found live yeasts? I don't see that she disputed the previous conclusions, however, although as I re-read it, I see that the fermentation continues after 7 days. Also seems to indicate that there are a lot of differences based on location.

That is what I get for reading just the easy parts. Sorry!


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## cerezha

Oldtimer said:


> Weird. ...I have discussed this with other English, and looks like this is another thing from the past that is no longer done.


 
I grow my own nettle for eating. As a matter of fact - it is quite difficult to grow nettle in my current place. I guess, I am old-fashion 

Nettle extract exactly as BernhardHeuvel described above (no sugar!) is great for your hairs - it rejuvenate hair-follicles, stimulates growth and made scalp healthy - just wet your hairs with "nettle-water" after conditioner, do not rinse, dry with towel.


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## cerezha

hpm08161947 said:


> B;y chance is it what we call Sorrel??
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorrel


 Yes!!! Sorrel!!! I apologize for my English!


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## cerezha

jim lyon said:


> Sorrow?


 Sorry for misleading - apparently: *Sorrel!!!* I apologize for my English!


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## jim lyon

No problem. In hindsight I should probably have figured that out myself.


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## Brad Bee

When I was a kid the older folks around here called one of the Wood Sorrels, "Rabbit Tobacco." It's the one with the tiny yellow flower.


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## thenance007

wcubed said:


> Secondly, bee bread is quite ugly. Quite dark colored and looks wet. Looks like shades of wet dirt. The bright colors of pollen are not seen. Feed pollen above, even that under honey, is slightly off color, but not in the range of bee bread. We conclude that merely adding honey does not make bee bread. So, what IS the process?
> Walt


Although I still think that most of the dark bee bread you described is just older fermented bee bread, I just found a reference to "entombed pollen" that also sounds like what you are describing. I have seen occasional scattered dark brown cells that are less than half full in my comb and wondered what they were. 

http://www.honeybeesuite.com/what-is-entombed-pollen/

"Entombed pollen is pollen that is stored in a honey bee hive and encapsulated under a layer of propolis.

The phenomenon was first described in a paper by Dennis vanEngelsdorp et al and published in the Journal of Invertebrate Pathology (2009). In that paper, the authors described cells of stored pollen that were covered by propolis and/or wax cappings. Since pollen is not normally coated in this way, the researchers performed chemical analyses on the pollen samples to discover why they may have been capped.

What they found were cells of pollen containing elevated levels of certain pesticides. The original researchers found especially high levels of the fungicide chlorothalonil in the capped cells. They also reported that the pollen in these cells was brick red.

VanEngelsdorp and his group theorized that the worker bees sensed the pollen in these cells was not good and subsequently covered it so it would not be consumed. Bees often coat offensive items with propolis—such as dead mice or snakes—to keep them from contaminating the interior of the hive. So coating contaminated pollen is consistent with other well-documented bee behavior.

In the months since the original paper was published, other beekeepers have reported the presence of entombed pollen. Entombed cells have been found to contain various colors of pollen and various types of chemicals, including those chemicals used to combat Varroa mites. It has also been documented that colonies containing entombed pollen are usually in the process of dying. Entombing contaminated pollen may be a last-ditch effort made by a colony trying to save itself.

Here is the link to the original paper: http://ento.psu.edu/directory/duv2/vanEngelsdorp_etal_2009_entombedpollen.pdf

Might be worth paying attention to if you see it in your hive.


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## thenance007

wcubed said:


> Nancy,
> Adding an empty below the broodnest doesn't help. First year, added a shallow of foundation - ignored. Second year, added a shallow of drawn comb - they put some feed pollen in the upper edge, less than an inch. Not what I was looking for. In the third year, when a shallow of brood was moved down, suddenly had what I wanted - a box filled with bee bread, and more remarkably, on all colonies of mixed genetics. Had found a way that was common to their basic instincts. And I'm not natuarally lucky.Walt


In inspecting my 8 frame mediums, I'm finding the bottom box on each hive is full of bee bread and a little nectar.


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## wcubed

Nancy,
You've been earning your keep on this thread. Keep it up, Lady.

Was aware that the pollen box works with an all-med configuration. (If they winter in the bottom box) The colony sometimes gets a little over zealous with all mediums and makes more than one box of bee bread. Using a shallow below a deep constrains them to a single box of bee bread. Has to do with their preference for rearing brood in a deep when the alternative is a shallow. The basic broodnest remains in the deep - year around. I didn't get to my wintering configuration by accident or ignorance.

Walt


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## salunra

WLC,

I have very much enjoyed reading about your experiments. I was wondering if you had considered using water kefir? It has a large variety of LABs as well as yeasts in it and might help with your fermentation experiments.


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## WLC

salunra:

Thanks, and yes I have considered water kefir for some obvious (vegan) reasons.

However, I do have a bunch of batches that I will test at a short distance (10ft) from the entrances of the hives to see which ones the bees find the most attractive.

I'm curious to see how the LAB/TURBO-Yeast/honey inoculant and Crisco compare.

I don't think that anyone has ever tried converting crisco to FAEE/brood pheromone.

I'm resorting to hamster bottle feeders to do this. I should have 3 small ones up by tomorrow.

There's plent of pollen coming in, and I didn't want to press my luck too hard with it by filling a gallon feeder with it again.

I will go to 1:2 syrup for now, since I am establishing 2 relatively new colonies. 

I hope that I can get them to fill out 3 deeps before winter.


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## rniles

deleted old info


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## squarepeg

wlc, any conclusions from your beegurt trial?


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## 779Hybrid410

I experimented last month on two new splits and a package using a 1:1 sugar syrup infused with beepro, wintergreen, lemon grass and "Effective Microorganisms; EM-1" (TM) that mainly consists of Lactobacillus plantarum; L. casei; Streptococcus Lactis (Lactic acid bacteria) and Rhodopseudomonas palustris; Rhodobacter sphaeroides (Photosynthetic bacteria). This is just a rice serum mixed with milk cultures. 

Bees survived, and consumed 1 gallon each in less than a week. I have not feed them any more EM-1 in three weeks, but shall again next week on this set of hives. I have no test per se, other than the bee skat pattern that occurs during the first spring flights.

Funny how some question these "experiments" or ideas to promote bee health, when humans force bees into 'standard' hives (boxes), feed fake honey, fake pollen and many other inconveniences. 

My bee habitat is extreme, so any help would be appreciated I think.


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## Oldtimer

779Hybrid410 said:


> Bees survived.


Well for one segment of beekeepers, bee survival is the sole criteria they use to declare their method a success.

So if you use the same measure, it worked.


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## WLC

squarepeg said:


> wlc, any conclusions from your beegurt trial?


Well, it didn't kill the colonies.

Once the flow started, they pretty much focused on that rather than the feeder.

However, now that the flow has wound down for late July into August, I'll probably try to feed again.


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## squarepeg

understood.

i've paid more attention to pollen stores this year, and my deep brood chambers are loaded.

i'll try another year without any pollen sub.


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## HIVE+

Sorry to come so late to the discussion. It has been an interesting thread. What is the latest update with the corn mash?
No mention, but I'm sure all are aware of the study done at ASU where given resveratrol bees lived 33-38% longer.


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## WLC

Locally, the flow never really stopped with the cool wet summer we had. White clover was still around in Central Park (until they recently mowed it again).

The cracked corn/probiotics fermented well. However, I never had the opportunity to test it using an in hive feeder.

I did try small open feeders with the different ferments, but they've ignored them.

I've already put pails of the other ferments in a feeder hive.

I'll put on another body with the corn ferment in pails shortly. (Thanks for reminding me)

I'd like to see if they go for the ferments once the flow stops.


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