# attendant bees



## Hayseed (Apr 25, 2004)

I attended a queen rearing seminar last week where it was emphsized to ALWAYS remove the attendant bees before placing the shipping cage in it's new hive or a queen bank nuc. We were told the attendants would kill the queen. I had not heard that before nor seen it in the instructions that came with my queens last year. 
I did not remove the attendants and had successful acceptance in 5 out of 8 cases.
Could those of you with more experience and knowledge comment on this? 

Thanx,
Dale


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

People have been leaving attendant bees in the cage with the queen for decades. Maybe you misunderstood the speakers claim? I don't know why they would recommend such a practice.

Where was this seminar and who were the speakers?


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

For the record, I've heard you should remove the attendants too. A couple of queens I bought recommended doing that as well as using a push-in cage for the queen. I never did it. A couple of the local queens I bought came in a cage in a box with attendants in the box, not the cage. That seems like a preferable method. I figured I stood a greater chance of screwing up trying to get the attendants out without hurting/losing the queen than I did just putting the cage in the hive, attendants and all.

I had perfect acceptance by the way, at least in those hives that were really queenless









Perhaps when I'm more comfortable with the process, I'll try it but until then, I and I imagine most new beekeepers will leave the attendants in the cages.

An interesting idea would be a cage-within-a-cage with the queen in the inner cage and the attendants in the outer cage.

Also I was looking through a Brushy Mountain catalog the other day and they had a mesh bag that you could put the cage in to remove the attendants without worrying about the queen getting loose.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you purchase enough queens to get them in a "battery box", you will have queens in cages without attendants and attendants in the box, keeping the queens fed and warm.

I believe that you can order caged queens without attendants. But, then who is going to feed the queen in transit?

I've removed dead attendants from queen cages and sometimes have lost the queen to the sky. So, be careful, if you do try to remove attendants.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

IMO removing the attendants is important if there is reason to believe you'll have some problems. In most situations a newbee is more likely to lose the queen trying to get the attendants out than they are to lose the queen from acceptance issues due to the attendants. I usually leave them in and have no problems.

There is research on the issue and removing the attendants improves the odds. To me the question is what are the odds to start with? On a hot hive, they aren't as good. Introducing a Russian they aren't as good. If they alreayd rejected one queen the odds aren't as good. If the odds aren't as good I'd remove the attendants AND use a push in cage over some emerging brood.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

OK, I'll bite- what IS the best method of getting the attendants out and leaving the queen in the cage?


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> We were told the attendants would kill the queen. 

No, that's not quite correct, but there is
a significant risk to the queen, regardless. 
In the case of requeening an existing hive, the
attendants may cause the bees _in the hive_
to ball the cage and damage or kill the queen, as
the attendants: </font>
Don't smell like the hive</font>
Aren't queens with pheromones</font>
Will "defend" the queen from the hive bees</font>
If you are installing a package, there is no
need to do this, as in-transit time alone is
more than enough for everyone to have a
"colony odor" established. Heck, release the
queen from the cage right off the bat when
installing a package, and save yourself
the trouble of going back later to remove the
cage.

Wyatt Mangum did an actual study on queen
introduction in requeening scenarios a few
years ago, I think he "published" it in ABJ. 
I know he does talks on it. He strongly
supports removing attendants. He's got data,
and the data is good. Many queens died so
that you could have proof.









> what IS the best method of getting the 
> attendants out

What we do (when not buying battery boxes
of queens) is to take the queen cages and
slide them into a big ziplock bag that has
stiff sides, and release the attendants from
the cage to the bag, working with both hands
inside the bag. This way, if the queen gets out,
she can't go far, and the bag can be closed if
she starts to head for the bag opening.

Another method, slower, but surer, is to pop
out the non-candy-end cork, and use your thumb
to cover the hole. Then, by uncovering the
hole and pointing it at the light, one can
lure attendants out one by one. If you see
the queen head for the open hole, you simply
cover the hole with your thumb, and twist the
cage so that the screened side faces the
bright light. Its easy, and you'll never get
stung, but it can take a few minutes per
queen cage, and I don't have the patience when
I want to install dozens of queens the next
dawn, and it is 9pm.

> I had not heard that before nor seen it in the 
> instructions that came with my queens last year.

Yeah, the producer's instructions are stuck in
the 1960s, it seems. All instruction sheets
in beekeeping are outdated, incomplete, and
terrible. ('cept Bee-Quick, of course, now with
instructions being printed in everything from
Korean to Farsi!)

But yeah, when requeening, Wyatt found that
those attendants are the biggest single factor
in causing queen rejections. Its easy to "fix",
so "ya really oughta wanna".


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## Hayseed (Apr 25, 2004)

Mark wrote: Where was this seminar and who were the speakers?

This was during my first attendance at a Western New York Assoc. meeting. Thought it was 'bout time I hooked up and met some other beekeepers, face-to-face. The Assoc. had hired a speaker from Central NY to speak on queen rearing. Excellent speaker - interesting - knowledgeable - I believe his name was John Ryan. I came away a lot smarter, but with more questions than answers. When John mentioned removing attendants from queen cages, there was a wave of agreeing comments from the floor and one experienced beekeeper stated the biggest reason for failure was due to leaving attendants with the queen.
I don't disbelieve any of them - but it's my nature to want to know more - that's why I post such questions to this list. 
Thanx - to all of you who share your personal knowledge. It's hard to imagine how long it would take for a beginner, with no close by mentor, to learn by experience, all that I read here. Certainly a lifetime (yeah, I'm already on the downslope of my foraging days)

Dale


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

You can try Jim's low price, low tech ziploc baggie system or you could try his thumb over the holes twisting and turning waiting and watching method, or you could be stylin' with Brushy Mountains new Queen Muff!

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/products.asp?pcode=264M

It's new and oh so stylish . . . 

Keith


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Brushy Mountains new Queen Muff!...

Shoot, for $11.95, I can buy a zip-lock bag
with stuff ALREADY IN IT, smoke the stuff,
and be quite happy with the slower thumb-method
attendant releasing approach, saving the baggy
for future queen cage work.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>you could be stylin' with Brushy Mountains new Queen Muff!

My first thought was . . o O ( How many queens died to make that muff? )

>Its easy to "fix", so "ya really oughta wanna". 

I'll take your word for it Jim. I actually hope to never have to buy any more queens again, but I'm sure that's not realistic. The baggie method just doesn't grab me though I can accept that it works for you. If I ever need to, I'll use the thumb-on-hole method, or borrow my wife's muff.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dale, Jon Ryan is a very knowledgable and experienced beekeeper. I believe that he studied under Roger Morse at Cornell. I know that he has participated in a number of Cornell's bee studies and trials.

Since you joined the Western Beekeepers, you should eb able to find someone reletivaly close by to be your "mentor". I really recommend that you find someone. A mentor is a valuable thing to have. Good luck.

If I knew where you were located I could probably recommend someone or I might know someone who knows someone. Or something like that. PM me if you want.

There are a few people who ID themselves as being from Western NY, maybe one of them is close to you.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

What does the "queen muff" look like? They don't have a picture.


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b221/DaveNH/muff.jpg


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## David Stewart (Jan 22, 2005)

Thanks for the picture Honey House....Makes me think (being the tight wad that I am) that I could accomplish the same thing inside my bee veil. I'm thinking do so in the shop just prior to introduction where if anything should head South on me at least the queen will still be inside and I can catch her when she flys to the window. Come to think of it, with my luck I'll miss an attendant and then when I get to the yard I'll have one ticked off attendant "inside the bonnet"..

David

[ February 19, 2006, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Stewaw ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Yes, thanks for the picture. I think it would be worth it. I've had so many queens fly since I've started raising them, one would pay for it.


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