# How long do scouts visit before swarm?



## Jack777 (Apr 2, 2005)

Every day I notice a few bees checking out the empty hive I put out and they spend a couple hours flying around it, going inside but that's it. Are these scouts looking for a home or just wandering bees; does anyone know approx how many days scouts will search for a new home before the swarm comes ?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are always bees checking out everything within two miles of the hive. It's POSSIBLE they are checking it out for a new home, but it's also possible they are just checking it out.


----------



## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

Jack,The activity you will observe is quite different to bees just visiting empty hiveware.This is serious stuff on the scouts part with intensity and scout numbers changing over several days.Once you have experienced the behavior you will always be able to recognise it.The timing of this activity mimics the time a issuing swarm will remain at its settled position whilst the scouts locate a new home.When the swarm arrives they are all settled in on average in about 20 minuets.The weather plays a large part in the number of days for all this to happen.If you look back at my earlier posts you will see some photos from the 30 incoming swarms from our last season to one trapping site.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Bob is right about the activity, it's very focused and almost is clear the bees are gathering information about a new location. Once you see it it will stand our from robbing or curiosity behavior. Sometimes bees are quick to come, sometimes they will scout a good location over a 24 hour period. Scouting is very unique behavior with the scouts actually communicating multiple location information back to the swarm. If 2 relatively equal locations are found extra scouts will return for a 2nd size up and report back to the swarm. I have seen scouts at a stack of stored honey supers 1 day and the swarm coming the next. Imagine that with what little they have to work with(in comparison to the human brain)


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I have a swarm box in tree in the back yard and always a few boxes sitting next to the garage. After the bees know there is nothing to get from the boxes they pretty much ignore it. Except for the every now and again bee. I can guess with good odds when a swarm will be occur. The bees that morning will be checking out the boxes and instead of one or two, it may be 10 or twenty. When I get home if they are not in the box or swarm trap, I can usually spot them in a nearby tree. It is amazing (pre-swarm activity) and once seen, is easily recognized.

Even so, you are going to lose just as many swarms as you get. Many do not even know a swarm occurred. And it happens more than most know or think. Routine inspections, and swarm prevention management is something you can do to ensure not missing a swarm, and at least increase your own numbers with queen cell harvesting, and timely splitting. Too many wait for a swarm to occurr and do nothing for the hive up to that point. And you will hear these beekeepers in another month talk about the strong hives they had all spring, and then they put honey supers on, and the bees will not go up and work the supers. All the while, not realizing they only have half the bees they did a few weeks ago.


----------



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

BjornBee: One questions: Why will the bees not go up and work the supers? How do you make the work the supers than to prevent them from swarming?


----------



## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I don't particularly think of the honey supers having much to do with swarming if there is an excluder involved or a band of honey along the top of the brood nest. 

I think of them like a living room and kitchen for humans. If you have a bunch of your extended family living with you and your kitchen is so small you are miserable, it doesn't matter much if your living room is as big as a gym. You are still going to want someone to leave.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Excellent analysis beedeetee, family and fish both stink after 3 days. Swarming is the instinctive method for propagation by honeybees. Although crowding and many other conditions contribute it has as much to do with the hard drive of the bee as anything else. Preventing swarming is like stopping the salmon swimming up stream, or stopping guys from looking at a pretty girl walking down the street. You are better to direct that energy in a direction that is beneficial to the bees and you with splits.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Why is there sometimes all that fighting going on while scout bees are checking out a bait hive ?


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Chef,
My point is that many beekeepers are not in the hives enough to know if a hive is going to swarm. There are certainly a number of things to help minimize(not prevent all swarming) but the average (not that this is anyone on beesource) beekeeper would rather put out swarm traps and wait in the hopes of catching thier own bees as they fly away.
I will see many beekeepers scratch thier heads as I will comment on the lack of eggs, or the recently torn down queen cells, and comment that they probably had a swarm recently. This is usually in conjunction with statements of how strong they recently were, but about the time the supers were put on they slowed. A flow and swarm season are closely linked. My point is that many will let the hives swarm, and complain about the lack of super activity. Something also closely linked.

Right now(north) you should be expanding the brood chamber(ie. the "kitchen"), removing honey bound frames, adding supers, creating proper ventalation, and reversing boxes that have the queen laying in the top and ignoring the bottom brood chamber. There are other small things that can be done, but those are some of the main ones.

Splitting unfortunately if not done early enough, will limit your honey crop. Splitting is not the best approach all the time. Comb honey in particular needs strong hives and splitting is not recommended. Swarm prevention management can involve inspecting within a ten day cycle, which allows you to remove a frame with queen cells(something less severe than an actual split), or the cutting out of queen cells. The thing to keep in mind is that if the queen cell is capped, you will most likely have a swarm regardless of what you do. Too many automatically split hives at the wrong time of the year and really lose out on the hnoey crop.

Upper entrances can also help. I use them in my supers(making supering alone a good swarm prevention). I step up the holes and do not have a problem with supers not being used. This allows less traffic in the brood chamber. I guess you can say that your making some of your family members use another door and not having them hang out in the kitchen as much.(Why I went there with this family discussion is beyond me...its still early).


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Since I have all the same size boxes I just bait them up with some brood. That way either they expand the brood nest (since I don't use excluders), which is fine by me, or they start working the super to store honey, which is also fine by me, and it frees up some space in the brood nest. If you do this with an exlcuder they won't expand the brood nest, but they will, more than likely, start working the super. Walt Wright's method, as I understand it, is to put drawn comb or frames with nectar, every other frame to break up the honey cap barrier and get them to work the supers instead of filling the brood nest.

With a "mature" brood nest and an excluder you have two barriers keeping them out of the supers. An excluder and a honey cap. I'd try to get rid of both.









I don't reverse unless the bottom box is empty, because of all the disruption to the brood nest, but that is one of the benefits. When you reverse the brood boxes you move the honey cap back down to the bottom and there is none over the top of the brood nest.


----------



## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Chef;
To encourage the bees to move into the honey super,it must contain drawn comb.Placing one or two frames of emerging brood and adhering bees in the honey super is very effective in stimulating the bees to pass the excluder.
Terry


----------



## Jack777 (Apr 2, 2005)

Bjornbee;
Very helpful replies from everyone. Thank you. You referred to compromising the honey crop. This leads me to a question. This year I want to be sure to split my one hive so that I end up with two good ones. I don't need a honey crop (we have reserves for the coming year). When I checked the hive on a warm day in mid March, there was not a scrap of larvae or brood. I called an older beekeeper to ask about this, and he said it was early for an unusually long cold winter. Sure enough, the next week she was laying. But here we are in early May. Yesterday I checked and there was 2 frames of brood; quite a few drone cells but no queen cells. When I asked about dividing (as it seems too early with 2 frames of brood, I was advised to wait and split in June. Question is: does that seem realistic? Can I split a hive in mid June and still get both ready for the winter?
Thoughts appreciated............


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I agree with chef, it has been proven that 1 big hive produces more than 2 smaller hives which if combined would equal the larger hive. What I have read and found is that once the queen cells are capped a swarm is most likey going to happen despite our efforts. For our operation that is the decision maker. If we find uncapped cells and want to try swarm prevention we'll destroy cells and put a few frames of foundation in the brood chamber as well increase space. The swarm process has started though well before we see the 1st. queen cells. By the time we take notice, active queen cups, no eggs, cells etc., the process has already begun. We also don't think that frequent manipulations are beneficial to our operation as a whole. Every time you disturb your hive you interrupt their process and risk killing a queen. Better to have 2 or 3 good splits than 1 swarmed out possibly queenless hive.


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Jack, It may just be the spring(weather). Just yesterday I was still scraping the car window of ice for the wife in the morning. I either have busting out at the seams type hives, or slower ones that just cant get over the hump due to freezing temps at night. They can only raise what they can keep warm. Hopefully this weekend will turn the corner and warmer weather will stay awhile.
I start hives by splitting or swarms in June and July all the time. And I hate feeding. You should have no problem.


----------

