# Water source in winter



## JTGaraas (Jun 7, 2014)

After you winterize your Minnesota hive in October or early November, forget about it until next spring when the temperature approaches 55F. They do not need an unfrozen water source, nor would they likely survive any attempt to access it outside their clustered area. Their stored honey has sufficient water — about 18.6% or less, some of which escapes into the air (requiring proper ventilation to avoid dead bees from too much condensation). Minnesota winters (and North Dakota winters) are for dreaming about working your bees next spring; no real work, except making more boxes or frames (and maybe take another nap).


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## karol wojtyla (Dec 19, 2017)

Ok, that's a relief! I'm not sure how I would have done it anyway.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

karol wojtyla said:


> Hi all,
> It's my first year with bees, and I live in an area that gets pretty cold (zone 4). Do I need to provide an unfrozen water source all winter long? It seems to me that if the water is frozen, it would be too cold for the bees to fly to it anyway.
> Any advice would be appreciated.
> 
> Karol Wojtyla


If anything, there is too much water during cold climate winter. 
In the hive, that is.
Least concern (more of the concern is how to rid of the excess water).



> *26.9 pounds of water are generated from our 40 pounds of honey*


Source: Bee Culture Magazine, January 1, 2015, Wait, How Much Water? by Frank Linton


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

That figure of ~70% moisture produced per pound of honey consumed is well established. Enough moisture condenses on hive walls to provide the bees with all the water they need to make the honey useable. Very often too much water condenses on cold surfaces and drips on the cluster. Keep the top warm and allow the walls to be a bit cooler around a small top front entrance/vent.

That said, I have heard that canola honey crystallizes solid and is a bit on the hard side for bees to handle easily. I dont remember seeing hard data to support the need for any external water source until hive cooling is needed for summer hive internal temperature control.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

crofter said:


> Enough moisture condenses on hive walls to provide the bees with all the water they need to make the honey useable.


Bees don´t use condensated demineralised water. Its a myth. I learned it this year. Always thought they did and was happy about condensation. Not anymore.
And I don´t believe it goes through the wax cappings to change the honey or does it? Never saw this, if I had condensation it dropped down and did not weaken the cappings.

Torben Schiffer spoke about this:
http://beenature-project.com/Aktuelle-Forschungen/Der-Klimadeckel-D-Deckel

Karol Wojtyla ( nice name in Rome ) try to have not so much open nectar going on winter. If you feed feed early so it´s capped in september. If you have crystallized honey feed a little surplus sugar syrup now and then in summer so the honey mixes on the combs. After harvesting, for sure.
Cold overwintering needs not much food and gives a good brood brake. Consider not to insulate too much or not at all.

First cleansing flight they do, place a water source if the ground is frozen. A heater with solar cells is good for that or a pond heater with solar cell.
I have a feeder box in the feeder which is my lid so I can give them a little water from the top if they are active. It can´t drop down.
Pict shows the climate lid with integrated box ( closed with coco mat but used for food and water)


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

SiWolKe said:


> Bees don´t use condensated demineralised water. Its a myth. I learned it this year.
> First cleansing flight they do, place a water source if the ground is frozen. A heater with solar cells is good for that or a pond heater with solar cell.


Expect to see a big demand for those solar cell water heaters; best get your orders in right smartly before they all sell out!


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I try all kinds of weird stuff with my bees, so this winter I am actually going to be offering shallows pans of water on the top frames in my hives. I am curious to see if they use it.

No, my hive will not be damper because of it. 

No, it will not contribute to condensation problems, because I use quilt boxes on them.

No, the water won't freeze to ice in my hyper-insulated stacks. If I thought there was going to be unexpected risk of that (extremely cold weather) I will suck it all back out of the little dishes using a hypodermic needle down through the shavings and fabric of the QB. (Which is also how I plan to refill the little dishes, when needed.)

My bees frequently leave their hive to search for water in winter - I just want to save them the trip and the risks undertaken to meet their needs on cold weather. I don't know if they will use it, though I have the surveillance capacity inside some of the colonies, within the 2" hive feeding rim, to watch for this (lights, camera. etc.) We'll see.

Randy Oliver challenged me on my use of QBs as possibly _removing too much moisture_ from the hive. Moisture which they needed, that in turn caused them to fly out in inappropriate weather to try to replace it. I had the equipment set up to do the experiment last year, but got sick before I could implement it. This summer I have had the dishes out, being used, so that they've acquired that bee-delectable funk. I plan to use pond water (stored frozen and thawed/warmed to temp inside feeding rim) to refill them in the winter. They drink from the pond all the time in warm weather, so I know they like it.

Last winter, because I did get sick, I had QBs on only above half of my hives. I used conventional IC on the others. I did not observe any discernable increase in foraging for water from the QB'd hives vs the IC hives. But I want to push it a bit further and see if they will drink inside the feeding rim space. 

Also I have played around with the much-reviled Boardman style feeders this year. Not for syrup, but for water for cooling in really hot weather. My bees will suck it down like no tomorrow, presumably saving some of the energy-costs of gathering it. Fortunately nobody tries to rob water - which would be absurd since my site has a large pond less than 400 feet away.

@Sibylle, I can't read the German, but those pictures are clearly an interesting variety of quilt boxes. If you have not used them before this year, I think you will very pleased with the results. I have had them on all my boxes, every winter since I started (last winter was the only exception). Bees do extremely well under them. At least mine do, in my very insulated, tall stacks. 

Nancy


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

I put an electric dog bowl out by my hive last winter because my bees were getting into the neighbors hot tub. This seemed to work since my hive made it thru the winter. I had inner covers and telescoping lids last year and had mold problems so I am going to try quilt boxes this year.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

enjambres said:


> @Sibylle, I can't read the German, but those pictures are clearly an interesting variety of quilt boxes. If you have not used them before this year, I think you will very pleased with the results. I have had them on all my boxes, every winter since I started (last winter was the only exception). Bees do extremely well under them. At least mine do, in my very insulated, tall stacks.
> 
> Nancy


I´m happy already with this lids. I drilled many very small holes into the floor and the bees propolised some and left open some as they need it. Then put the shavings on top.
I have to feed 6 colonies ( 4 packages, 2 small splits) because I have no honey frames left after my expansion and a little harvesting. 
In this case I normally have a big problem with moisture because it´s cold nights already abd days are getting shorter. 
So I fed in small amounts but not this year. The lids help so much that the hives are dry and the bees can take thin syrup constantly. The even build comb and send some foragers.

Good idea Nancy to use the pond water. Mine take the dirtiest water you can imagine. I will try this too. 

I googled a little bit and found a post from a woman who put a styropor piece into a basin covered with a net and with a black plate on top to heat up in the sun.
Might be good for the bees to fly out and combine cleansing flights with water source. 
A friend uses swimming glass for his feeding containers. I will try this in my water source too.

To insulate I used this:
https://www.winterschutz.de/wintervlies.html
It was very good against winds and did not make the wooden walls of my hives mouldy because it´s breathing. Our winters are very wet but not very cold. Bees fare much better in a cold and dry winter.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

SiWolKe said:


> Bees don´t use condensated demineralised water. Its a myth. .....


And how do you suppose they consume dry sugar in winter?

To make this point even more dramatic - cold Wisconsin winter AND no other significant stores but dry sugar chunks, placed on the top bars.
They winter just fine, given this setting, for 4-5 months of no fly weather, to be sure.

Think about it for a minute.


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## yotebuster1200 (Jul 28, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> Bees don´t use condensated demineralised water. Its a myth. .....


Do you have any data to support your claim?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

yotebuster1200 said:


> Do you have any data to support your claim?


If there are any data in that claim, those data are not aware of "Mountain Camp" type bee feeding.
OR hard candy, or sugar cakes, and the like types of winter bee feeding.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Bees winter better with a somewhat dry interior as opposed to a damp interior. Nosema is a far less problem in a "dry" hive. I personally have not used fumigillan for some 7 years and have had no nosema problems and few hive losses. I am sold on quilt boxes for the hobbiest. To my knowledge, fumigillan is no longer available in Alberta unless a source has been located. 

I use a feed shim and make sugar blocks available. The double deep 10 frame hives will use some 6 pounds of sugar, so water is available to some extent, in my hives on the dry side.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

GregV said:


> And how do you suppose they consume dry sugar in winter?
> 
> To make this point even more dramatic - cold Wisconsin winter AND no other significant stores but dry sugar chunks, placed on the top bars.
> They winter just fine, given this setting, for 4-5 months of no fly weather, to be sure.
> ...


If they break cluster they go out to take water.
Camp feeding is an emergency for spring starving or warming up in winter time and no stores left.
I can´t imagine a cluster sitting on the dry sugar with very low temperature.

If you claim they do send a link. The link I posted above is research by scientifics. With their endoscopic cameras they never saw bees taking condensation water.

Why are bees starving on crystallized honey as most beekeepers fear?
They condensation water might wet the sugar. Then it´s not demineralised anymore. But not on honey cell caps.

Think about it for a minute.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

SiWolKe said:


> If they break cluster they go out to take water.
> Camp feeding is an emergency for spring starving or warming up in winter time and no stores left.
> I can´t imagine a cluster sitting on the dry sugar with very low temperature.
> 
> ...


Mineralized water is water taken from a pond or a creek; water with dissolved minerals.
Sugar water is not that.
Water condensed on dry sugar is not really mineralized water.

I am not saying wintering on dry sugar is a good thing (or a bad thing). This is irrelevant.
That is just a reality sometimes. 
I have done it and will continue when needed because things happen (saving a very late swarm is one typical case).
Others have done it and will continue as needed too.



> I can´t imagine a cluster sitting on the dry sugar with very low temperature.


No need to imagine, here: http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm#drysugar
Notice how bees even mine dry sugar located in a side-feeder. 
Not much condensed water in that; they have to collect elsewhere in the hive.

Bees just sit under the dry sugar brick and mine it as needed - as simple as that.
Here is my version of the same (nursing a late swarm):


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

>>>put some newspaper in the gap and put a little sugar,* spray a little water to clump it* so it doesn't run out, a little more sugar until I get it full. Sometimes the house bees* carry it out for trash *if you don't clump it. If you *drizzle some water on it* you can get the bees interested in it.<<<

Michael knows exactly what the bees need and what happens in a hive.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Hate to bust up a bunch of misconceptions, but this is a subject that has been studied and written about extensively. Bee Culture, December 1943, article by Edwin Anderson plus the articles Bernard Mobus wrote July/August 1998. The short version is that bees in very highly insulated hives do not metabolize enough honey to meet their water needs. They wind up dying of thirst in a hive full of honey or flying out to forage for water when it is too cold.

http://www.selectedplants.com/miscan/wintering.1943.dec.pdf
http://www.selectedplants.com/miscan/vol7.pdf
http://www.selectedplants.com/miscan/vol8.pdf


Attribution for these articles to the original writers and publishers, Bee Culture and American Bee Journal.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

SiWolKe said:


> >>>put some newspaper in the gap and put a little sugar,* spray a little water to clump it* so it doesn't run out, a little more sugar until I get it full. Sometimes the house bees* carry it out for trash *if you don't clump it. If you *drizzle some water on it* you can get the bees interested in it.<<<
> 
> Michael knows exactly what the bees need and what happens in a hive.


Well, you try this and you will know, that the initial water sprayed is NOT there anymore 2-3-4 weeks later.
Meanwhile, the bees mine that sugar brick for 3-4-5 months in a row.

Yes, MB knows exactly what bees need when no other choice works - dry sugar dumped directly into the hive, in the middle of a freezing winter.
That initial drizzle is only there to clump loose sugar and form it in to a solid chunk.

IF you place a sugar brick or hard sugar candy, you do NOT need to even drizzle.
MB's site is consistent too - see "candy board" and "fondant" right next to the "dry sugar" (no mention of "drizzle").
You directly place them with no "water drizzling" whatsoever. 
These methods depend on condensed water collected in the hive by the bees @ 100%.

Not so much a myth at that.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> Hate to bust up a bunch of misconceptions, but this is a subject that has been studied and written about extensively. Bee Culture, December 1943, article by Edwin Anderson plus the articles Bernard Mobus wrote July/August 1998. The short version is that bees in very highly insulated hives do not metabolize enough honey to meet their water needs. They wind up dying of thirst in a hive full of honey or flying out to forage for water when it is too cold.
> 
> http://www.selectedplants.com/miscan/wintering.1943.dec.pdf
> http://www.selectedplants.com/miscan/vol7.pdf
> ...


A quick look at it suggests to me that this is more a hypothesis than proof. 75 or so years old. I sure have not seen a lot of recent material suggesting we are killing bees by dehydration or dehydtation induced forays for water and subsequently perishing in the cold.

There certainly are lots of bees in the snow but other motivations could account for much of that.

Ian Stettler winters 1000 or so colonies indoors at controlled temperatures where metabolization of winter stores are at their lowest, thus lowest amount of water so produced. They do not fly out* at all* and I have not heard anything about needing to supply them with drinking troughs.

I would like to see more on this; it is certainly a new one to me but that by no means makes it impossible.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Frank, The temps were very cold outside preventing flying. Mobus deliberately doubled the size of the colony resulting in very efficient heat management with minimal consumption of stores. The colony was in a highly insulated box requiring very little heat therefore low amounts of honey were consumed. Less water was produced from metabolizing the sugars in honey. The result was a water deficient hive. It is counter-intuitive to us, but deadly to the bees.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Yes it is relatively easy to contrive conditions far from what would naturally occur and achieve a situation that will support almost any preconceived outcome. Like water intake for humans being deadly outside norms! Context matters! 
What we do not have here is a controlled experiment with incremental variations in available water supply and measured effects on bees. Are bees found in the snow actually dehydrated, and if so is it because water in a suitable form is unavailable or is it because they have been dehydrated from viral fever or dysentery? It is all too easy to mistake concurrence with causation. 

Too much jumping to conclusions and the explanations seem to require some "leaps of faith". Leaps of faith are something I am a bit weak on.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Is it fact or hypothesis that bees on the outer parts of the cluster gradually rotate positions with those nearer the center.
If the point of all this is to suggest that grossly over insulating or heating a hive in extremely low humidity conditions could be a waste of resources and not lead to increase survivablilty of the colony, then that I will buy!


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> grossly over insulating or heating a hive in extremely low humidity conditions could be a waste of resources


 This is the essence of what Mobus found. Bees need to consume a certain amount of honey to maintain acceptable moisture levels in a hive. A very large colony in a very well insulated hive suffers from lack of water. Conversely, a very small colony in a well insulated hive can survive and thrive where it would die in a wooden hive. This goes a long way toward explaining the results Brother Adam found when packing colonies for winter. It was very deleterious to health of the colony.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

How is it explained that Ian and others manage to keep bees at the lowest metabolic demand temperature yet have excellent survival rates?

I know it is simplification but it seems that some of this other work suggests that the bees should be kept colder so they shiver harder, produce more water and are happier.

Others feel that this water so produced will be demineralized and somehow not palatable or sustaining to the bees. 

It seems to me like grasping at straws to explain that a large percentage of bees at close out are programmed to not survive till spring and fly from the colony to die.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> SiWolKe said:
> 
> 
> > Bees don´t use condensated demineralised water. Its a myth.
> ...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Sibylle; It has always been difficult to know who to believe! The writer may have been mistaken for any of a number of reasons, including the influence of his own preconceptions. After a period of long acceptance by peers, some authors appear to have gotten sloppy about what constitutes proof and demand acceptance at face value. Resting on their laurels! 

Even if it is well devised and controlled research, it has to get through the next stage in transfer of knowledge -- our own personal filters which can create, misconceptions, preconceptions etc., created by our own unique experience.

A good defense is a healthy skepticism. Look for any gaps or flaws in the story and stop as soon as any "leap of faith" is required of you.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Well Frank, I called him not long ago to ask him something and he told me I have to pay a fee to get advise on the hive climate......I did not pay because I already paid for the speaking.

He is definitely not resting on his laurels. 

Thankfully I have some reliable contacts to discuss this and this was what I did.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://web.archive.org/web/20120308...natural-beekeeping/observations/condensation/

This is an archive copy of Dennis Murrel's website. Under Musings you can see a bee taking condensation off of the plexiglass inner cover. I clump up the dry sugar just to keep them from hauling it out for trash. I wet the leading edge to get them interested in it. I've often opened a hive in the spring and virtually all of the dry sugar is gone. Other hives only part of it is gone. Always some of it is gone. There is research to show that bees PREFER mineralized water:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/een.12375

Particularly sodium, calcium, magnesium and potassium but even that varied by season.

I don't know of any that says they won't take demineralized water and if they exist, I would question them based on personal observation.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Thanks, Michael!
:thumbsup:


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## hagane (Aug 15, 2015)

Default Re: Water source in winter
Is it fact or hypothesis that bees on the outer parts of the cluster gradually rotate positions with those nearer the center.
If the point of all this is to suggest that grossly over insulating or heating a hive in extremely low humidity conditions could be a waste of resources and not lead to increase survivablilty of the colony, then that I will buy!


The above comment is pretty interesting.

Scientists are saying that's how penguins are doing it down in Antarctica and so on. So if penguins can do it, I don't see why bees couldn't...and aren't bees smarter than penguins?


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