# My thoughts on working gloveless



## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

I made a post to another thread encouraging not using gloves. I have been advised to be careful giving advise on working without gloves. That person is right, working without sting proof clothing can be hazardous to your health. 

But since one definition of Forum is; a meeting or medium for an exchange of views, I would like to offer the following. Only 3% of people have anaphylactic shock from a bee sting which can cause a life-threatening allergic reaction. It is estimated that in the United States only 100 people die each year from all insect stings which includes wasp’s fire ants and bee’s. With the US population in July estimated at 301,139,947, that is a .0000033% chance that a person would die from a bee sting. Since a person who is allergic to bee stings would probably stay away from bees I would guess that the chance of a beekeeper dying from a bee sting would be less.
Just for comparison sake the chance of dying while driving to your local grocery store or bee yard is about .0016603%. If you are thinking of working without gloves, you should proceed with caution.

I spoke with a health care professional recently who is also a beekeeper. Their personal concern was that with modern beekeepers using the bee clothing that did not allow any stings. The beekeepers were possibly exposing themself to a severe reaction if they suddenly got a number of stings from bee’s getting inside of the clothing.

For me personally, working without gloves has built up some immunity. One or a few stings in which the poison sac is removed quickly, I feel, has helped me build this immunity. As I have stated in previous posts to beesource I use protective clothing as follows; Veil always, the rest of the clothing when I think it is warranted such as, but not inclusive, a hot hive, farm equipment working near by, weather not favorable.

As part of my profession for the last 32 years I question people about their health. Because of my interest in bees, I usually find a way to bring bee's into the conversation. I have always ask questions when I hear of a sudden allergic reaction to honey bee sting when there had not been allergies before, even from among other beekeepers. Most of these suddenly developed allergies were possible chemically induced. By chemically induced I mean the person told me; 
1. That they were drunk, or an the way to getting there, at the time it happened.
2. Their doctor had put them on a new medication. Most of these were high blood pressure medicines.
3. They had recently developed type II diabetes. 
4. And many more such examples

I did a search on WebMD concerning bee venom allergy, here is the link to the results. You might need to log in to see them. Everything below this link has been selected from the information on WebMD. 

http://www.webmd.com/search/search_results/default.aspx?query=bee venom allergy&sourceType=undefined

webmd.com/search/search_results/default.aspx?query=bee%20venom%20allergy&sourceType=undefined

How Can I Prevent a Sting Reaction? 
1.	To avoid sting-induced shock if you are allergic, carry a bee-sting kit (be sure you know how to administer a self-injection). You should also wear a Medic Alert bracelet or necklace describing your allergy.
If you have had a severe reaction to a sting and a positive venom skin test, venom immunotherapy — a series of weekly shots of venom — works well to prevent anaphylaxis.
The vast majority of serious and fatal allergic reactions from stings cause a significant and obvious allergic reaction within an hour of being stung. Most deaths from stings occur within the first hour. Immediate emergency medical care is critical in known or suspected allergic reactions after an insect sting. In rare cases, serious or even fatal allergic reactions may not happen for up to 4 or more hours after an insect sting.
Although multiple stings increase the potential danger in allergic cases, a serious or even fatal allergic reaction can (and does) occur from a single sting in a person with no known prior allergic reaction.

Medical problems from bee and wasp stings are broadly broken down into 2 categories:
1. Local reactions (only the part of the body near the sting is affected)
Immediate pain, redness, swelling, and itching at the sting site may occur.
A large (greater than 4 inches across) local reaction may develop over the next 12-36 hours.
A bacterial skin infection, although uncommon, may also begin during the first 12-36 hours (or even after the first few days).
These may cause an enlarging area of redness at the sting site. It may be difficult to tell a local skin reaction and a local bacterial skin infection apart.
2. Systemic or allergic reactions (parts of the body away from the sting are affected)
Hives (raised itchy bumps on the skin) and itching all over the body
Swelling of the mouth or throat or both
Wheezing, Shortness of breath or other difficulty breathing
Nausea,Vomiting, Anxiety,Chest pain, 
Low blood pressure(weakness or Fainting 
In severe cases, marked difficulty breathing, unconsciousness, and even death may occur.



Your doctor can determine if you are allergic to bee and wasp stings with a simple skin test, using purified, freeze-dried venom. However, only about 20% of people with a positive skin test suffer severe reactions to a sting.
Allergic reactions may produce extensive swelling. For about 3% of people, however, a sting can trigger anaphylactic shock, a life-threatening allergic reaction. Painful hives and swelling may progress rapidly to block off airways, causing circulatory collapse and, sometimes, death. In the United States, about 50 people die each year from sting-induced anaphylactic shock, primarily people over 40 with pre-existing heart disease. If you are stung by a swarm of 50 to 100 bees, the effect can be similar to that of anaphylactic shock.
Immunotherapy for allergies to insect stings
Immunotherapy is a series of allergy shots given to reduce your sensitivity to allergens that cause an allergic reaction. Small doses of allergens are injected under the skin. Over time, allergy shots can decrease the severity of your reaction to allergens. To treat allergies to insect stings, very small amounts of the venom of the insect or insects are used. The treatment also is sometimes called venom immunotherapy (VIT). 
Immunotherapy is available to treat allergies to stings from:
Honeybees, Yellow jackets. Hornets. Paper wasps. Fire ants. 
A solution of dilute saline containing a very small amount of the insect venom is injected under the skin. At first, you get one or more shots about once a week. The amount of allergen injected is slightly increased each time, unless you have a reaction to the shot.
After about 4 to 6 months of weekly shots, you are usually getting an optimal amount of allergen in the shot-this is called the maintenance dose. Once you reach maintenance level, you get the same dose in shots every 4 weeks for another 4 to 6 months.
After the first year of shots, you will have maintenance shots every 6 to 8 weeks over the next 3 to 5 years.1

How Well It Works
Immunotherapy for insect stings significantly reduces your chances of having another severe systemic allergic reaction from 60% to less than 3%.
It is not clear exactly how effective the protection against future stings is once the treatment has ended. In about 80% to 90% of cases, you will still be protected against systemic reactions even if tests show some remaining immune sensitivity.
Risks

Allergy shots are safe if the shots are given correctly. The most common side effects are redness and warmth at the shot site. Some people may experience large local reactions that include itching, hives, or swelling of the skin near where you had the shot. More serious but less common side effects include systemic symptoms such as hives, itching, or difficulty breathing.
On rare occasions, a person may have a severe allergic reaction (anaphylaxis) to the shots. Because of this 
How Can I Prevent a Sting Reaction? 
2.	To avoid sting-induced shock if you are allergic, carry a bee-sting kit (be sure you know how to administer a self-injection). You should also wear a Medic Alert bracelet or necklace describing your allergy.
If you have had a severe reaction to a sting and a positive venom skin test, venom immunotherapy — a series of weekly shots of venom — works well to prevent anaphylaxis.

The vast majority of serious and fatal allergic reactions from stings cause a significant and obvious allergic reaction within an hour of being stung. Most deaths from stings occur within the first hour. Immediate emergency medical care is critical in known or suspected allergic reactions after an insect sting. In rare cases, serious or even fatal allergic reactions may not happen for up to 4 or more hours after an insect sting.
Although multiple stings increase the potential danger in allergic cases, a serious or even fatal allergic reaction can (and does) occur from a single sting in a person with no known prior allergic
reaction.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Irregardless of any other factors, going gloveless is a personnal choice, and should be approached by indivuals as they see fit. One of the biggest problems with promoting no gloves is the natural instinct to shake your hand when a bee lands on it. As soon as you shake it, your hand is now the target of guard bees, who will attack it with great zeast an vigor. Until one mangages to over come the shaking instinct, I would not recommand going gloveless. I have gone to using latex gloves, and while they do make my hands sweat, they do give a small level of confidance that I won't get stung as bad if they do go for my hand.


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## Ruben (Feb 11, 2006)

I agree gloves are personal issue, if someone is allergic to bees they will get stung beekeeping if they have gloves on or not sometime or some way.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I guess I don't care much about building up immunity. 

I'd just prefer not to be stung more than necessary. I don't get stung often but it does happen on occasion. Rarely if ever on the hands because I wear gloves. If someone doesn't want to wear gloves I say more power to ya. 

I guess for a newbie I'd recommend wearing gloves until you become familiar with bees. A newbie doesn't recognize alot of times the differences in temperment with the same hive on different days. 

My wife will tell you a bee is chasing her if one flies by her head or is just casually investigating her perfume and she will sometimes panic.

Newbies sometimes assume a bee on the hand is intent on stinging you. Many times they are not. 

I guess I just recommend until folks learn more about bee behaviors first hand and can begin recognizing aggressive behaviors vs investigative behavior etc... then wear gloves and other protective gear. As you get more comfortable with bees you can start shedding gear if you feel inclined.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Here's my opinion.

I started without gloves. Every once in a while, I got a sting. I often went without a veil. 

One day, I was performing sugar treatments. I buttoned things up, went inside and put my gear away. I had forgotten my smoker so I headed out to get it. I was met halfway by one very angry bee. She head butted me numerous times but really wanted to sting. You all know how, when a bee wants to sting you, she's going to let you have it. Anyway, she got UNDER the lens of my eyeglasses and stung me there......directly under my right eye. By the time I got the glasses off, went inside the house and removed the stinger, I already had a swollen cheek.

Within a half hour, I had hives from the waist up. Interestingly, nothing below the belt line. I felt very hot and itchy. So...I took two Benadryl and relaxed. Less that an hour later, I was not itchy and most of the hives had gone away. By the end of the day, it was just a red spot on my face.

However, it has changed my mind about going into the hives without protection. My doctor feels that while the sting was in a bad place I still needed to take reasonable precautions. Reasonable is a bee jacket with veil and gloves. I may or may not have developed an allergy. Time and testing will tell.

My typical hive routines are somewhat non-intrusive. Nonetheless, there are times that I need to take the hives apart for whatever reason. We all have that challenge. I'd prefer gloveless but I'm a better beekeeper when I have some protection.

I type this with two swollen thumbs. Last week, the girls got me right through the gloves. Gloves collect the scent of a sting and it's time to clean them. I had a typical reaction from those stings. Local swelling and redness....itchiness on day two and for a few days after that. Maybe the girls venom wasn't as effective through the leather. Maybe my "eye" sting was just in a bad spot (as my doctor told me) and the stinger was left in for a long time. Maybe my body reacts differently each time or over time. All I know is that, until I know what the likely outcome of a sting will be, I'll exercise control over the situation as best I can. 

My two cents. 

By the way. If you're in doubt as to whether you're allergic or not, ask your doctor. You're not a doctor (probably) and your doctor is not the keeper of your bees. Don't guess. It's not good for anyone. Your bees are counting on you to KEEP them. Play it safe so that we can read many posts from you all!


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

KC in WV

How many hives do you have?


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## paulnewbee1 (Jan 27, 2007)

I am a new person doing bees my 1st time I have been betten 5 times last night I got it twice had been wearing all black and it was late around 6:30. this was the 5th and 6th time being stung it was all my fault not the bees a new person as myself when out for 20 min or so will wear my vail and gloves. Plus my wife did not like me bringing in a bee to the house last night. One thing I do now is to take the bee-quick and spray a little on my hands with no glove so far this has worked for me. I don't have much experance in knowing when they girls get upset. But with time I will learn. With only six stinggs so far this year I feel that I'm doing somthing right. Most of the stings I have gotten came when I pulled frames that had honey in them. 
Now that I have my suppers on and hope to get some of food of the Gods I will be wearing white paints. heavey shirt, and gloves and some bee quick. 
And yes I do at times get a little shakey around the bees.


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## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

The right level of protection is the amount that leaves you comfortable working with the bees. If you are living in terror during an inspection you need more protection. I helped a guy whose inspection day recreates a scene from "outbreak." If you feel better modeling a hazmat suit then more power to you. Want to go shirtless, shoeless, only a veil? Good for you. Not for me. I still (three years on) can't get past my "shake my hand when a bee lands on it" instinct. Not sure why that is. I know the gloves are a psychological tool mostly. I've been stung through them. I feel better with them on. Do what feels right. Maybe a year later you'll want to move to lighter gear or drop the gloves. No glory in doing so, no shame either.


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## Beekeeper1958 (Sep 25, 2006)

*Ouch*

Well I'm one of the big ole chickens.
I always glove up when opening hives.
The why doesn't matter but lets just say I don't like being stung.


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## Troutsqueezer (May 17, 2005)

I wear gloves everytime. I cannot think of anything that is not easy for me to do while wearing gloves except pick my nose. Pulling the frames out and manipulating them with my big ol' thick gloves is a piece of cake. Why would I want to take them off? So I can get that "tactile" feel and become more intimate with the hive? I'll reserve that experience of intimacy for another time and location.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Would you expect Mario Andretti and a 16 year old kid to have the same driving habits?

If you are comfortable in full suit, including gloves, than by all means wear them. If you are stung 500 times plus annually and happy with the fact, then wear no gloves or veil if that's what you want. No two bee stings are the same and no two beeks will react the same, and no beek will react the same way with every sting.

The main thing that counts is, YOU are comfortable with the bees and you are wearing what makes YOU feel good and enjoy your bees. I would never suggest that anybody wear less than THEY feel is adequate.


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## beenovice (Jun 19, 2007)

Since I am new beekeeper I wear gloves and veil with jacket. Not that I am scared but it feels comfortable this way. On the other side my lady just goes into the hive only with veil and in skirt and t-shirt. She is one crazy lady I tell her but she seems to be very comfortable among these beautiful little creatures. No stings yet. Maybe this is because we have only one hive and bees were busy building comb in my TBH and it really seems they don't care if we are there or not.

When I go just looking at them then I don't wear anything and I am some 10 inches from the hive looking at the hive entrance. Bees just don't care for me it seems....not one was ever following me or anything. I was thinking this is maybe because I don't do any parfume mambo jumbo aftershave or anything like that and shampoo is parfumeless also ....


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## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

Dan Williamson said:


> KC in WV
> 
> How many hives do you have?


Dan
This year I have 15 of my own, and another 8 that I care for because of the owners work situation. I have been keeping bees since 1979. I guess that makes me one of the old beekeepers I mentioned earlier.

I feel that the exchange of ideas on this forum has helped me become a better beekeeper. Not everything I read has been adopted but I think it all is worth considering.


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## Chris (Jun 18, 2007)

It was my thread where KC advised not to wear the gloves. I'm new to beekeeping this year and after starting with 4 frames of brood and not many field bees we could inspect the hive easily with no gloves. We must have inspected them fully about 6 times over around 3 months and it was wonderful. We're into some very hot and dry weather now and I got stung three times on the same hand during an inspection. I quickly smoked my hand and got no more stings putting the hive back together. I scraped the stings out with a knife and bathed them with raki and antihistamine cream and the following morning you could hardly see where they'd been. A full week later I had a bad nights sleep with my hand itching and thought that a mozzie had got me. I then realised that I was reacting to the bee stings. Only local swelling but I was amazed about the delay in the reaction. The next inpection I was very carefull to smoke them properly and worked slowly and deliberately but about half way through one of the little buggers got me again.
I smoked the sting to stop the guards getting the message (this seems to work well) and put the hive back together.
When I get stung there's no way I can just watch it happen and not shake my hand so sooner or later I going to get a gang of bees that aren't too happy. The main problem that I've got is that when I get stung I don't want to complete the inspection. All I want to do is put it all back together and go and have a sit down somewhere. So... I've now done two part inspections in a row and we're in a difficult time for the bees so I don't really know what they're doing in there. For this reason I've decided to go for gloves. I can see both sides of the arguement so thanks for the advice from everyone. Gloves aside we always wear headgear but apart from that just jeans and a thick shirt. You should see the local guys...... when we collected our frames the bee yard was a mess with dozens of hives and bits of hives all over the place and clouds of bees. The beekeep dropped a feeder sending syrup all over the place and he had to saw the ends off his frames full of brood and bees (with a log saw!!!) so they'd fit in our box. He was just in sandals tee shirt and shorts. Nothing else and no one got stung.


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

*bees*

I wear gloves and I get stung. I am a RN, work in the ICU , doesnt really matter to me. My bee pants are carharts with the crotch ripped out of them , a betterbee professional pullover and some cheap cloth gloves. 


Not wearing gloves, well just really doesnt matter. I know if I did it for a living I sure would have a full bee suit.


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

spunky said:


> My bee pants are carharts with the crotch ripped out of them


"Crotchless Carharts" - spewed my coffee on that one. Jeff Foxworthy would have a field day with that...



Iddee said:


> The main thing that counts is, YOU are comfortable with the bees and you are wearing what makes YOU feel good and enjoy your bees.


Bingo. The point is enjoying what you are doing. 

For the record, I'm in my 3rd year, and this year I took the gloves off, although I keep them in my back pocket and use them from time to time when the girls are testy.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

kc in wv said:


> Dan
> This year I have 15 of my own, and another 8 that I care for because of the owners work situation. I have been keeping bees since 1979. I guess that makes me one of the old beekeepers I mentioned earlier.
> 
> I feel that the exchange of ideas on this forum has helped me become a better beekeeper. Not everything I read has been adopted but I think it all is worth considering.


Agreed. This is a great place to exchange ideas.


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## mgmoore7 (Jul 6, 2007)

I am new beek. I helped another beek work some of his hives and at the pace he was going (he had at least 30 hives to check in a fairly short period of time), the gloves slowed me down. I took them off and was just fine.

Now when I got home and inspected my 2 hives, I got a bit nervous without the gloves and the situation.... I stepped away and did not inspect the second hive. 

This last weekend I did a inspection on both hives with gloves and felt much more comfortable.

I will say that the gloves do make it more difficult but the frame grabber has helped with that. 

So this boils down to what your own comfort level it. For me, for now, it is using gloves what elastic that keeps them from crawling up my long sleeve shirt.


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

Many have said this, I'll just repeat... I think the key is being comfortable. If you are comfrtable, you will be relaxed and move with more care. If I have to look 3 times instead of once before I grab with gloved hands, so be it.


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## RonS (Dec 28, 2004)

*Astronaut*

I suit up, glove up, and boot up almost every time. Those few that I did not, I have been nailed. I am very comfortable with my new Ultra-Breeze suit, gauntlet gloves and military boots. I have seen those German videos where the female beek does all kinds of things, sans any protection. I just smile and know that she has never met my girls.


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## Chris (Jun 18, 2007)

Has anyone got any thoughts on whether or not the bees know you're feeling nervous and react differently? Other animals can sense it so why not bees.

And yes this is a brilliant site. We've got a couple of books but can't speak to anyone about bees out here so thanks to this site we're streets ahead of where we were just a couple of months ago.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I have no doubt that they can sense whether your nervious or not. Just watch your state beeinspector some time, that should answer that question for you.


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## samiyam318 (Jan 18, 2006)

Antrhopomorphizing bees is so much fun.

My guess is that nobody has the slightest idea of the answer to the question, though almost everybody will have an opinion and be ready to speculate.


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## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

Chris said:


> It was my thread where KC advised not to wear the gloves. QUOTE]
> 
> Chris, I am glad you found and contributed to this thread.
> 
> That said I am ready to go on to other things, like, what are the main types of honey flow in you part of the world?


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## Chris (Jun 18, 2007)

That's a hard one KC. At the minute oleander is the only pollen coming in. You can't mistake it because of the different vivid colours. Not sure how good it is though. When we get through the drought around september we get a sort of second spring when we get the first rain after the summer. We get lots of wild flowers and herbs and this is what the Cretan honey is all about. Apart from salad veg and fruit there is virtually nothing that is farmed on a large scale so all the pollen and nectar is from wild sources. Summer is the bad time for us as we go through three months or so with no rain whatsoever but during the winter we can have 2 or 3 degrees c one day and 20 the next so there's always something in flower. In winter we've been in the snow in the mountains taking pictures and on the same day on the beach in shorts. 
It's a great place to be.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

iddee said:


> "...If you are comfortable in full suit, including gloves, than by all means wear them. If you are stung 500 times plus annually and happy with the fact, then wear no gloves or veil if that's what you want. No two bee stings are the same and no two beeks will react the same, and no beek will react the same way with every sting.
> 
> The main thing that counts is, YOU are comfortable with the bees and you are wearing what makes YOU feel good and enjoy your bees. I would never suggest that anybody wear less than THEY feel is adequate."


Iddee, I couldn't have said it better. Me, I don't wear gloves and am comfortable with my bees and don't mind when I get stung in the hands or arms. I hate being stung in the nose, because my eyes water so bad I can't see a darn thing, which is why I typically wear a veil. I protect myself to the level I am comfortable with...


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

I agree, the main thing that counts is your own comfort level. I rarely work with gloves. I alway use a veil. I have taken several stings to the face (lips and temple) and I really, really hate them. I routinely take stings to the hands, arms , legs and body. Most the time I barely know I've been stung. I do smoke my hands and arms good when working a hive and that seems to help alot.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

I'm still a big chicken...I've never been one to invite pain for the sake of pain. Pain only when it can't be avoided and it can with some gloves. Occasional stings through them. They are getting holes, and I'm not getting new ones, so I don't know what will happen there....

And then it also can make a difference from hive to hive....5 hives I wouldn't mind trying gloveless on, one hive I could but would need to work really really really slow, and don't think i'll try.

Rick


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

kc in wv: You seem to very knowledgeable about bee sting/venom and their affects. Is there a way to find out by the internet [medical] how many beekeepers have required medical treatment [or died] because they were or chose not to be adequately protected. I saw a dead mouse/shrew by my hives a few days ago. I thought I would see many stings but I only saw one; on the lower jaw that I could see. I sometimes go out and check my hives [3] with no veil or gloves; VERY slow and carefully; LOL. Do you or anybody else think if I were to be stung in a VERY vulnerable place [PLEASE NO JOKES Lol.] my health [life] would be in danger?


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Oldbee, back 20 or 30 years ago, the consensus was that the average person, who gets stung less than a dozen times in their lifetime, and the beek who got stung numerous times regularly, were both nearly totally safe from an adverse reaction. The most likely client for a fatal sting was the beek's family members who got more stings than the average person, but too few to keep their immunity built up. That's one reason I wear as little protective gear as I am comfortable with. No stings or many stings will be safer than a mid-amount of stings.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

The choice shouldn't be made when you begin. It takes a long time to learn the mood of the bees. Then there are things you can learn without gloves you won't learn any other way. How to avoid bumps and cracks. The pace the bees will tolerate. The importance of not trapping a bee between frames or elsewhere so the dying bee gives off alarm pheromone. Estimating the mood of the hive just by observing how they react to being opened. How not to breathe you CO2 on the bees.
I usually wear gloves especially if I need to get to the brood nest. I have 20 hives and tend to rush a little.
This summer some of us are working in a queen rearing operation. There are many 50 or so, baby nucs to check. You also have to see clearly to find those little virgins. You'll never catcch and mark one with any kind of gloves on. I've gotten used to working them without gloves or a veil. WHAT A FEELING OF FREEDOM. It's like a zen thing. It seems like another sense takes over. You can actually get to like having a bee walking around on your hand or buzzing you because you are crowding them. I've taken a few stings but this is the most fun I've had beekeeping. These are gentle little creatures. 

If you are going to try it do so with a nuc when there is a flow on in the middle of the day.

dickm


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## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

Oldbee ask >>> You seem to very knowledgeable about bee sting/venom and their affects. Is there a way to find out by the internet [medical] how many beekeepers have required medical treatment [or died] because they were or chose not to be adequately protected. 

That is an interesting thought for research. Lets Google it.
As far as knowledge, my knowledge consists of personal expierence, reading some on apitheripy, asking questions, and the research I quoted at the beginning of the thread. 

You also mentioned >>>>I saw a dead mouse/shrew by my hives a few days ago. I thought I would see many stings but I only saw one; on the lower jaw that I could see. 

I would think there would be more stings also. Maybe that is the reason bees go for the face, they know the spot to get you. I have heard of a few people with out an allergy before or after, being stung on top of the ear and passed out or almost did. Was the mouse/shrew covered in propolis? Was it fresh enough to tell if it had swelled up?

You also said>>>> I sometimes go out and check my hives [3] with no veil or gloves; VERY slow and carefully; LOL. Do you or anybody else think if I were to be stung in a VERY vulnerable place 

Every time I get around bees without a vail I get stung. Today a buddy and I were through removing honey. we had packed everything up and was about to get in the truck when one nailed me on the forehead. As I said in the beginning post "working without sting proof clothing can be hazardous to your health."


I started this thread to voice my opinion after a strong attack from someone when I was commenting to a new beekeeper on his beekeeping and not using gloves. The attacker apparently read my post but not the thread I was commenting to. As for me I am ready to let the thing die. For some reason there have been several attacking threads on beesource the last few days. I feel partially responsible because I responded to this attack.


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## Chris (Jun 18, 2007)

I should worry too much about it kc. It's too easy to misunderstand what someones trying to say when they start in the middle of a thread and there are far worse forums than this where it happens.

For me this has been a good healthy exchange of facts and different ideas and working practice and as a newbee that's what I need. Beekeeping seems to be so different from other things in that it's not an exact science and everyone does things a little differently so it's good to hear it all so we newbees can decide which way to go. Thanks everyone.

Chris


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## MarkAshurst (Jun 15, 2007)

Now, ideally speaking, we all should wear gloves when going to bed, but I found out that it could be a little interference with my social agenda... If you know what I mean… 
Bernie Mac-Oceans Eleven
Sorry I couldn’t resist… 
I don’t wear them. It’s not a macho thing. I’m just lazy and I rarely get stung working my two small hives. This is my first year so my hives are small (and therefore cool?). I always wear a mosquito net over a felt hat. Other than that I don’t smoke and I often just wear flip flops. I tend to inspect at around 5pm when I get home from work but sometimes it’s later. Like I said… I’m just lazy. If the bees start to sting me, I’ll start to do something about it. I have been stung three times this year. All three times it was a direct result of me making a mistake. Also other than the initial stab I would rather have a bee sting than a mosquito bite.


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## MichelleB (Jan 29, 2006)

My first year (last year) I got a little too comfy with my girls. While I never went without gloves, I did a late summer inspection and feeding wearing a button-down Oxford shirt, veil, gloves, Capri-length light slacks and sneakers. 

The bees got up my shirt, down the waist of my pants, and nailed me 13 times. That sucked. I believe that was maybe the second time I'd been stung in 20 years. 

Now, I suspect they'd been harangued by yellowjackets, and had recently had their supers pulled, so I should have known better. Most of my bees are usually pretty mellow. But even so, under the best of conditions, I feel more confident and comfortable in full battle gear. Especially now that I have an Ultra Breeze in my wardrobe. 

As for getting stung on a regular basis, it still happens. The bees hang out by my sliding glass door at night, and maybe I'll step on one accidentally; I get stung through the gloves regularly, and usually when packing up there will be one determined guard be to give me the big sendoff. My reactions have become less noticeable in the past year.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

kc in wv: The animal looked mostly like a shrew with a longer snout and shorter tail than a mouse. This is the first time I have seen anything "dead" [except bees] by the hives. It was only about 1.5 feet from the landing board. It was NOT propolizied and no other bugs/flies were around it. It may have died during the evening. Although I did not examine "every inch" of it I did notice what looked like a venom sack from a honeybee; pulled it out and there was a stinger attached. My colonies are only about 10 miles out in the country so I drive out sometimes just to watch them and then get the urge to open the cover to check how foundation or capping is progressing. I don't always have my veil/gloves with me. As far as seeing that dead shrew with only one sting around the head area got me thinking of course that I "could" be stung at the temple, jugular vein or other "spot" that may have serious consequences.


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## no1cowboy (May 18, 2007)

Oldbee said:


> I don't always have my veil/gloves with me. As far as seeing that dead shrew with only one sting around the head area got me thinking of course that I "could" be stung at the temple, jugular vein or other "spot" that may have serious consequences.


I myself have been stung around the face temples neck ect. with not much of a reaction, on the other hand i know of another person who always wore full gear and maybe had been stung once or twice on the hand, on day after working his hives he took off his vail before leaving the bee yard and got stung several times about the head and neck and had to be taken to hospital. so you just never know.


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## aidah (May 29, 2007)

Do you think bees like to sting some people more than others? I'm a 1st year. I ware gloves sometimes. My bees are very, very mild. Don't smoke them either. Yesterday I went out with a Friend to work a hive and was amazed how nasty the girl were. We weren't smoking them, they were smoking us!!!


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## beenovice (Jun 19, 2007)

aidah said:


> Do you think bees like to sting some people more than others? I'm a 1st year. I ware gloves sometimes. My bees are very, very mild. Don't smoke them either. Yesterday I went out with a Friend to work a hive and was amazed how nasty the girl were. We weren't smoking them, they were smoking us!!!


One thing that I see consensus among beekeepers and I alse read it in several books is that bees don't like parfumes and similar and they also don't like people who stink. Check your friend


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

> Has anyone got any thoughts on whether or not the bees know you're feeling nervous and react differently? Other animals can sense it so why not bees.


Sure, but that's only part of it. You can be supremely relaxed, confident, and fearless and still get used for target practice. It depends.

I go gloveless but I keep them handy and when the bees get testy, I don't hesitate to put them on. I usually don't have much trouble until late summer when the main flow is over, then the bees are a lot less inclined to let me muck around in their hive. If I open the lid I always wear a veil.

What's beekeeping like in Crete? What are your seasons and flows like?


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## Chris (Jun 18, 2007)

Things are quite different in Crete. The difficult time is now as we have a drought from July to October so there's only oleander pollen coming at the present. The interesting thing is that when the rains start in the autumn it's like spring as we get a lot of wild flowers coming into bloom. The winter is mild and not harsh enough to kill off the new plants and then in the spring we get another flush of flowers and of course the olives before summer kicks in.
Unless you're trying to draw out foundation there's no need to feed here as there's always something coming in. The big thing here is water or lack of it. We've got an automatic watering system for the veggies and the grapes and I left a tap open just a little to drip. The bees and wasps soon found this and now it's an established favourite watering hole. I've since put a water tray full of small stones so the bees don't drown close to the hive and they're ignoring this. I dont want to lace it with sugar because I don't want to encourage the wasps to come close to the hive.

Chris


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

KC in WV
You have brought up an interesting discussion, please don't consider it's continuation as an attack on you, this is just one of those things with multiple opinions, everyone has one. 
Here's mine. 
We get a lot of first time beeks getting nucs or packages from us in the spring or just calling for info after getting them somewhere else. I have been told numerous times that they thought if they were slow and careful they could work the bees without gloves, but being the newbees they were, they ended up being stung and developing an apprehension about going into their hives. Thinking it is somehow bad for the bees if they wear gloves can lead to neglect and ultimately failure. Some feel they are doing something wrong if they want to wear gloves and feel they are a failure if they do. 
I sometimes hear on this board that wearing gloves leads to "manhandling the bees", more death by crushing etc. It doesn't have to be that way. I think the jerky reaction when one is stung on the hand (dropping the frame, waving the hands etc) can lead to more deaths and upset of the bees than a careful gloved approach. One does not have to squish bees or be clumsy if the gloves fit well. Goatskin is soft and malleable, and the latex gloves give some protection while they are still easy to feel through.
As so many have said, do what makes you comfortable. We ALWAYS recommend veils and gloves for newbees. Once they are comfortable with their bees if they want to go without the gloves, they will have a better "read" of the bee's temperament. Neither way is wrong or intrinsically bad for the bees.
Sheri


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## greenbeekeeping (Feb 13, 2003)

When I first started I wore gloves all the time. I rarely use them at all anymore unless a hive is a bit hot or moving hives around. Usually always have the bee jacket on and pant legs tucked into my socks.


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## Chris (Jun 18, 2007)

Lots of sense there Sheri. As a newbee I can relate to all that but you mention goatskin gloves. I've read that we should steer clear of anything animal such as leathers because it can get the bees mad. So can we use leather?
Another thought......... If you do get stung through gloves then the venom sacs will get pulled off when you take the gloves off and so reduce the effects of the stings. Is this right?

Chris


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi Chris
Leather works fine, that is what we use when we use gloves, or sometimes the latex if we need to work smaller colonies in bad weather. They don't hardly ever sting through them, occasionally if you have them stretched tight over a knuckle they might sting through on the back of the hand. When they do sting, the stingers don't get in very far because of the thickness of the leather and you can just run the stinger out by rubbing the glove. 
As for making the bees mad I have not noticed that, but maybe because I condition my gloves with a beeswax conditioner the girls just think it smells like home. Now if they were black suede it might be a different story.
Sheri


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I have to agree with you Sheri. 

I still and will always wear gloves when working the bees. I will proboly wear the fuit suit too as it gives me the added protection.


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## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> KC in WV
> You have brought up an interesting discussion, please don't consider it's continuation as an attack on you, this is just one of those things with multiple opinions, everyone has one.


Sheri
You are totally right on the using of gloves by a new beekeeper or anyone else that prefers them. I didn't feel that anyone was attaching me on this thread. I started this thread because on another thread on the forum I was trying to encourage Chris in his attempts at working gloveless. Some one attack me for giving the advice and the poster apparently did not read the thread through to see what the jest of the discussion was.

I used gloves all the time for over 20 years. Sometimes I would get stung through the canvas gloves. I still feel there are lots of times when gloves provide and extra level of comfort and protection, and as other have said they do too, my gloves are always close by. No matter what a beekeeper preference is, they should always have on the proper gloves when handling chemicals and drugs.

I have tried the latex dishwashing gloves and surgical gloves for general bee work. Although I don't get stung with either, my hands sweat a lot when I wear them and they also get slick when they get honey on them. My favorite way to protect my hands from stings when I get in a tough situation is to put duck tape on my knuckles and the backs of my fingers and then put the gloves on. This greatly reduces the stings. I stumbled on to this in desperation during a very nasty cutout this spring. Even with the duck tape I estimated I took 30 to 40 stings in my right hand. The swelling was minimal, and I feel it was due to my working without gloves and taking a few stings when the conditions were right.



Chris, Is the olive bloom worked by honey bees? Do they produce nectar from it?


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## Chris (Jun 18, 2007)

Chris, Is the olive bloom worked by honey bees? Do they produce nectar from it?

I don't know the answer to that so I'll have to make a point of seeing what happens in the spring. Somebody's got to pollenate them and I just assumed it would be honey bees. There are over 35,000,000. olive trees on crete so it would be a busy time for them. 

Can anyone else pick up the question. I'm sure you've got olives there.


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Hi Chris
> As for making the bees mad I have not noticed that, but maybe because I condition my gloves with a beeswax conditioner the girls just think it smells like home.


Hi Sheri,

I would like to know more about this beeswax conditioner...is this a product that you made yourself? 

I think this is a great idea,  

Thanks,

Cyndi

P.S. I wear thick leather gloves and my Golden Bee Suit,  

I would like to mention that the bees don't seem to mind my gloves...however, once a couple of years ago I worked a friend's hives. When I got home, I washed everything, gloves and suit. The next time I worked my hives with those gloves, my bees were freaked out. It was wild. After I got new gloves, bees were fine. I had to throw the old gloves away. It was amazing.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi Cyndi
I was afraid someone was going to ask about that, lol.
I have a couple recipes, one with lanolin, some are pretty fancy with multiple ingredients. I think I made this bar with just beeswax and olive oil, (you could probably use any veggie oil or even tallow for that matter I would guess) melted together in the microwave then put into a soap mold. A tupperware container would work. You can experiment until it is the right consistency after it cools and sets up. It can be remelted with more beeswax, more olive oil etc. It is basically a bar that is softer than pure beeswax. If I need to wash my gloves I do so with them on my hands, then use the bar sort of like a bar of soap, rubbing the mixture into the gloves well, with the gloves still on. This keeps the gloves soft when they dry. Without this stuff they would get so stiff when they dried I couldn't even get my fingers in (been there? I sure have, before I started this, lol)
Sheri


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## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

Sheri
Thank you for the info. 
My wife has been experimenting recently with making lotion bars out of bee's wax. After reading an article in ABJ on Comophous I am concerned about contaminated wax getting into foundation and the wax used for these lotions. Do you know if the foundation suppliers have safeguards to reduce contaminations


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

>>>Do you know if the foundation suppliers have safeguards to reduce contaminations<<<

That is a good question. I wish I knew the answer. We use our own beeswax which only comes from honey cappings. Anyone who has read many of my postings knows I am a bit of a nag about people using wax from their brood combs, unless they know for sure it is totally chemical free. Even if chemical free it is full of brood residue. We burn our old comb, we don't ever use that old wax. The bee supply places take wax in exchange for their foundation and who knows what sort of safeguards they use. I buy wax for resale also (from beeks I am familiar with and know they have quality wax) but I have been offered some pretty skanky wax on occasion I wouldn't even offer for industrial use, it should have just been burned in my opinion.

If you don't have enough of your own clean wax I would contact another beekeeper that you know has good clean stuff. I sell it on Ebay - store name Honey Glow Farm or pm me direct if you can't find any locally.
Sheri


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Gloves or no gloves. Either way you still need to get stung every now and again to avoid the development of an alergy to bee venom. This was a topic of discussion at a beekeepers meeting that I attended yesterday. 

It was even pointed out that beekeeper families need to get stung every now and then so that they maintain resistence to allergy also.


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Hi Cyndi
> This keeps the gloves soft when they dry. Without this stuff they would get so stiff when they dried I couldn't even get my fingers in (been there? I sure have, before I started this, lol)
> Sheri


Oh yea, I too have been there....which is why I can't wait to try this. Thanks Sheri, nice recipe.


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

I haven't read all of this thread, but I have to add this. I use a full suit with gloves, and I still get stung about once a week. I think that if I went without gloves, I wouldn't get stung any more than I do now, as a matter of fact, I would probably get stung less because I wouldn't smash as many bees. That being said, I would not go gloveless when robbing honey, I noticed that they get far more aggitated.

I think the biggest trick is to give the bees time to gorge themselves after smoking them.


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## Chris (Jun 18, 2007)

Sheri......."I made this bar with just beeswax and olive oil, (you could probably use any veggie oil or even tallow for that matter I would guess) melted together in the microwave".

Sheri. You may want to think about doing this a little differently as heating oils and waxes in your microwave is extremely dangerous. The mix can easily and quickly heat above it's flashpoint temperature and then what you have here is a very effective bomb.

Chris


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

Hi Chris,

If you're only microwaving for short periods of time and small amounts, the microwave is generally safe. Especially if you're using beeswax and olive oil. I do things like this with bees and soy waxes all the time. Believe it or not...there is an art to using the microwave...most women who spend lots of time in the kitchen know this..hahaha,  I'm not really all that crazy about microwaving my food. If I do, I have a less than one minute rule for all my microwaving purposes anyways.

Now, OTOH, if it were paraffin....that's another issue altogether and I'm really afraid of paraffin...even in my crock pot.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi Chris
Caution is always good and it is probably a good thing to caution on this, you are correct it could get too hot if you overcooked it. I am assuming a general knowledge of beeswax and oil, perhaps I am assuming too much. I use a lower power and short heating times and watch for melting point. It would not be wise to put it on high for 10 minutes and walk away. As Cyndi says, for women (ok, let's not be sexist _people_ who are used to using a microwave it is generally safe. 
BTW, beeswax alone does not melt well in a microwave, go figure. The oil as a melting medium makes it possible.
Sheri


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## Chris (Jun 18, 2007)

Just thought I better mention it. There's been a TV show in the UK where people do crazy things to get a laugh and one was the microwave thing heating oil with the microwave in the middle of a field. The blast is quite spectacular.


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## Mountaineerfan (Jul 30, 2005)

*Sorry Peggjam!!! Really I am!*



peggjam said:


> Irregardless of any other factors, ....


Sorry Peggjam, I can't help it! I sometimes hate being a teacher!

The word is regardless. There is no such word as irregardless! 

Again, I don't mean any disrespect! It was just bugging me! 

There, now I feel better. Have a great day! 
Steve

PS: I'm gloveless.


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

Steve,

You and I should sit down some time and agonize over the misuse of the phrase "begs the question" and the western Pennsylvanian phenomenon of omitting the verb "to be." 

Example: "The yard needs mowed." Arrrrghh!


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irregardless


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

*then again...*

I cut the fingertips off my gloves (just the thumb and forefinger)...best of both world's I think. I tighten up any little gap with some duct tape.
Easier time handling frames, for me.
Pulling honey, I will wear gloves with fingers.

I had a generalized recation this spring after taking...well let's just say I wasn't counting...way too many smacks one cold, rainy day.
I have gotten hit who know's how many times(lot's) since then, including my adam's apple, nose, ear's and, well, places I won't mention right now, with out even much swelling, thankfully.

Now I'm more careful to suit up for anything more than a walk through doing "entrance board diagnostics"...the thing that makes me uncomfortable about my bee suit is how stinking HOT they are! 

Mark


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## stingmaster (Jul 27, 2007)

Fully suited, head to toe...always. Why? I HATE getting stung. It hurts. It hurts me as much today as it did when I was a kid. Most times when I am fooling around in the hives, they pay little attention to me but still, always, no exceptions, gloves and gear. Sure, it would be so nice not to be so over-heated I want to keel over or have a nice touchy-feely moment while working frames but I have been the recipient of near 200 stings at one time. Not pretty and surely no fun.

Besides the ouch thing, you never know what might just set them off. We have all, I am sure, been working along- bees quiet and all sweet then BAM! All heck breaks loose and you are being dive-bombed by a zillion bees. Makes me very glad I am wearing my suit and gloves. Call me a girlie-boy but being stung all the time does not make me a better beek. 

Then too, us Texans know that at some point a hive might just turn hotter than @%!* -----do you REALLY want to be gloveless when you make that discovery? lol....not me, thank you.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

*Be prepared*

When I work swarms, I wear no protective gear at all unless they are overhead then I will wear a veil to keep them from dropping on my head.

But at all other times I wear my Golden Bee Suit and chemical resistant gloves. If you are wanting to wear rubber gloves, and I really like them, use a glove with a cotton liner. Your hands will still sweat but they are the most comfortable you can use and they are nearly sting proof. They can also be washed, but turn them inside out when not using them. It is also a good idea to pitch them when they get funky inside or use a disinfectant to kill any bacteria that starts growing in them. You can get the chemical resistant gloves at Lowes in the paint department.

All that being said, I still find ways to get an average of at least two stings per day, sometimes a lot more, sometimes none. I even administer stings to my neck when it gets a bit stiff and my shoulder when it gets achy.

I don't mind an occasional sting, I just want to choose when and where. I don't use smoke and I do a lot of cut outs, so like a good boy scout I am prepared when the buggers do get upset.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

It just hit me, since the thread expanded a little. Even when I wear gloves I don't wear a suit. I wear a light white shirt and a pair of light pants. I say "light" because the bees have proven they can sting through both. I don't like to be sweating inside a suit.

dickm


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## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

stingmaster said:


> girlie-boy


Not me, That is for Arnold to do  If the truth be known, I doubt he would go anywhere close to a bee yard with out a sting proof suit.


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## shawnwri (Jul 31, 2006)

Hobie said:


> Example: "The yard needs mowed." Arrrrghh!




Makes sense to me, but I was raised in WNY. BTW it doesn't need mowed. Too dry


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## Billy Y. (Feb 1, 2005)

*Hive and the Honey Bee*

In the book "The Hive and the Honey Bee" there is a section on allergies to bee stings. In that section there is a sub-section pertaining specifically to beekeepers as it relates to bee venom allergy.

All of you should read that section of the book.

If you keep bees and are not getting stung regularly you have a hightened risk of developing a allergy. Not wearing gloves is ONE way to get stung regularly.

Anybody who never wants to get stung has no business keeping bees.

I have also read many here say they never use smoke when working hives. The general consensus by those who know a heck of a lot more than I do about beekeeping say that you should never open a hive without a least a viel and a lit smoker. 

To open a hive in a populated area without a lit smoker in my opinion is irresponsible. Let some bystander get stung and have a reaction. If the law finds you were working bees without smoke you might find yourself up a legal flag pole.


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## stingmaster (Jul 27, 2007)

Anybody who never wants to get stung has no business keeping bees.

To me, that sounds like a person who never wants to get hit by a car has no bisiness working on a road crew. 

Getting stung is one of those near unavoidable things that come with beekeeping. Do I WANT to get stung? No...do I get stung? Yes? 
I have a friend who always used to boast that he was immune to poison Ivy. He would act a fool, rub it on himself, roll in it...you get the picture. One day, he ended up in the hospital.
You never know how your immune system is going to react.


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## Billy Y. (Feb 1, 2005)

*Allergy expert?*

stingmaster -

Have you read the allergey section I pointed out in THHB?

What do you know about sting allergies?

Are you a doc?

Are you a allergist?


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## stingmaster (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Billy...nope, none of the above. I do, however, have a deep understanding of the immune response and anaphalaxis due to my employment. 
I think you missed my point (should have put a smiley face or something). What I was trying to say was that a beek does not have to TRY to get stung, it simply WILL happen no matter what. Comes with the territory. I suspect that people who NEVER want to get stung are probably not beeks.

In addition to that, I stand by what I said prior- you never know how the immune system will respond. You can make an educated guess- and that is about it. 
Last spring a call came in from the wife of a 62 y/o beek- he was having his first reaction after 25 years of beekeeping. Yes, when asked, he had been stung plenty of times over the years. Hyper-immune response is an illogical thing, an error- often fatal. 

Re-read what I said in my first post- what was untrue? What was bad advice? Maybe I will put a sharper point on it... a person does not need many stings...just one, now and again, to hopefully desensitize. Going into hives unprotected to get that one sting is foolish. You could end up with hundreds. That could easily kill a person with marginal hyper-sensitivity.


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## Billy Y. (Feb 1, 2005)

stingmaster said:


> In addition to that, I stand by what I said prior- you never know how the immune system will respond. You can make an educated guess- and that is about it.
> Last spring a call came in from the wife of a 62 y/o beek- he was having his first reaction after 25 years of beekeeping. Yes, when asked, he had been stung plenty of times over the years. Hyper-immune response is an illogical thing, an error- often fatal.
> 
> Re-read what I said in my first post- what was untrue? What was bad advice? Maybe I will put a sharper point on it... a person does not need many stings...just one, now and again, to hopefully desensitize. Going into hives unprotected to get that one sting is foolish. You could end up with hundreds. That could easily kill a person with marginal hyper-sensitivity.


Im not suggesting going into a hive unprotected. A lit smoker and a viel is the minimum, IMHO. 

I disagree with your position on the stings/allergies. It is not a "random walk", like you suggest, unless you seldom get stung. The more you get stung the less likely you are to develop a allergy/hypersensitivity. Did that 62yo beekeeper you talk of get stung once a week? How much is "a lot over the years"? That info is imoportant. My guess is he was getting old and wasn't getting out amongst them like he used to.

Again, I point to THHB and the section on venom allergy with regard to beekeepers. It is all right there - even has a nice chart showing the probabilities with regard to number of stings. Falls to near zero after a hundred stings or so.

On the other hand, a beekeeper who seldom gets stung has a higher probability of developing a allergy than the non beekeeping population. So we are more at risk than the average joe BECAUSE we are beekeepers. The book attributed it to the exposure we have to bee dander.


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