# Struck out hard with nucs



## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Made a mess of splits around the end of June. Had all of them mated and most were looking ok. Had mites in the yard bad, and SHB (which are still bad - Is it just that bad this year, yikes). 

Had some issues come up and didn't get to baby sit them, thought I had lost more than I did, but still have 7 good nucs going. Lost at least 11 nucs and 5 hives, mostly to mites. I have to get some better mite attacking bees. 

What a kick in the teeth. 

About to do the dribble treatment on them just to make sure they can make it through the winter. 

One strange thing it that I have 3 nuc platforms. The ones facing east west survived, and the north south two platforms all died (but both have a large fire ant mounds on one end). 

Next spring goal need new genetics.


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## bigdawgkp (May 2, 2013)

I just got back into bee keeping this year and purchased four started hives. Lost two and purchased three more. They are doing excellent as of this month November! I do not remember loosing such a large ratio! I never lost this many when I had 200 hives and owned the St.Tammany Honey Company 20 years ago. Do not understand. Purchased two Italian nucs at the end of September and have lost both of them! Really bummed out about it to say the least. I want to try some Russians next spring - Good luck and hang in there - bigdawgkp


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

marshmasterpat said:


> Next spring goal need new genetics.


Maybe start earlier in the flow


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## CajunBee (May 15, 2013)

Sorry to hear that. Strangely, I've had fewer SHB problems this year. Of course, only did one split and all the main hives remained strong. Jumped on the mites early by doing OA vape in late July. Started the second round of treatments today and they look good going into the cooler months.
I have noticed their activity is less compared to last year in this temperature range. :scratch:

ETA: I feel Mr Palmer is correct....need to split toward the end of the build-up around late March.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

I told all my SHB to leave town. Sorry they went your way. 

Really, sorry to hear the problems. Are all your bees local mutts or have you purchased queens?


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

These are all local mutt stuff. I am seeing lots of swarm activity around the area I picked these up, I have my concerns about their genetics as far as being "Good" bees to keep as a bee keeper. They were free but what do they really cost. AND I am way on the backside of the learning curve. 

I see lots of duck nest boxes and owl boxes with colonies in them where I picked these up, but saw three hives last week that appeared to be recently abandoned as well, just comb outside the hive abandoned, but had bees as little as September. Not sure if it the SHB or mites, guessing the second. See lots of abandoned hives in bushes and small trees. The mutts swarm, build and crash, and that has been my sources. Hmmm..

I knew they had mites, was hoping to pull them through, stubborn and lost that attempt. 

Lining up sources of better genetics today for next spring. Going to try to have 3 sources of TF or better lines including some Russians. Time will tell. 

Mr Palmer - Will make those splits earlier, another corner cut and hard lesson learned. 

Thanks guys.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Really did make a impact on my mead brewing plans. That is the worst of it. LOL

Mess of nucs to clean up it the other down side but will be ready for spring.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Well will have plenty of empty nucs for spring increases. So I am looking at establish a secondary bee yard and will try how that goes, ferals are doing well and not other hives within 12 miles. That is a plus and the spring to mid summer forage is good. Lots of native stuff and of course plenty of tallow LOL. Good fall stuff as well. There are quite a few people around with bees in barns/attics/eaves etc, so ferals are doing well.

Going to start feeding Global patties this week in small control amounts plus syrup to jump start what I didn't kill through neglect. Long range weather forecast shows only a few days below 60 degrees between now and Christmas plus nights mainly in mid 50s. So small increases to brood cluster should be ok I am assuming.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> Maybe start earlier in the flow


I was thinking "But we are on the Gulf coast and it is plenty toasty warm." 

Heck we are still sitting with 70s temperatures and they are hauling something in plus pollen. But yes sir, missing the main flow was the first mistake in the chain of errors. Didn't have the time to make the splits when I needed, should have waiting till this spring. Just wanted those hives/nucs ready for early spring jump off.

Thanks everyone for any advice


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

cleanse two hives , and put two hives to one side and dump all them feral bees minus the queens into the boxes and treat you can always top up hives with them bees like a bee bank, but make sure they are free of all mites and beetles etc.and feed well to build them up.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

For $100-200 a OAV would have paid for itself already.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Michael P......


> Maybe start earlier in the flow


I am new so forgive my misunderstanding of things.
I had watched your vidio of a substainable apary and had thought you were starting your nucs at the end of the main flow (like the beginning of july)

I am not to the nuc making place and will probly do spring splits if my bees even live. I am in the planning stages of how to proceed with bee keeping and not ever wanting to have to buy bees. I was keeping it in mind that next year I might try a couple of late nucs but am wanting to understand a little of what I am doing also. Did I come away with the wrong impression of your prosses from your vidio?
Not picking but just trying to learn enough to have a hobby type bee keeping success. 
Thanks
gww


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I start mid-june when my first queens are available, and go to mid-july. The earliest made explode, and need 3 stories, and draw several frames of foundation. Those made in July can struggle to draw any foundation, and wind up getting comb so they can raise lots of brood and store honey from the fall flow. The OP is talking about making nucs in Texas after the flow has ended. Really difficult for bees to build up under those conditions.


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

My end of June splits made an extra 8 deep frames of comb and capped honey by the end of July.

Of my mid August splits, one queen did not take, but the other 2 hit the ground running. Those two were able to produce a deep of honey for winter by end of October.

My hives sit on the rusty sbb bottom boards, with mineral oil. 

I also run hinged migratory covers to reduce hiding areas for shb.

I feed 1:1 syrup as needed during the summer.

Spring was apivar, followed by 1/2 maqs first of October, with a schedule OAV first weekend of December while broodless.

Next spring will be using Mike Palmers setup for sustainable apiary.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Michael P.....
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I think we had a decent fall flow here in MO. My first year so I am not sure of what I am seeing. My take away from your answer is I might make it with breaking down my smallest hive at the july period which I think is probly my summer derth but if I do they would need feed and then comb for sure to use the fall flow for a chance of survival. Since I will have no comb unless I have a dead out, I am guessing spring splits is my route for awhile.

Any time I get info wrong due to misinterpretation or just not being very smart yet, I hope somebody calls me a dummy so I can keep learning.
Thanks
gww


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

gww - I was counting on that strong fall flow off goldenrod and quite a few other good pollen producers I see around here to let these NUCs expand and be ready for winter. 

Last two falls I had problems with NUCs actually swarming and new emergency queens not getting mated in September and October, but mite issues were not as bad. I didn't have the gear to let them expand so I paid that price. This year, had the NUCs ready to go 3 high if they wanted.....

Was sort of counting on that flow to let these NUCs establish and settle in, but life threw a inside slider and I didn't look at them one time after setting them up. So they paid the price. Hopefully will be ready for spring this year. 

THanks everyone for the comments and advice.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

marshmasterpat said:


> gww - I was counting on that strong fall flow off goldenrod and quite a few other good pollen producers I see around here to let these NUCs expand and be ready for winter.
> 
> Last two falls I had problems with NUCs actually swarming and new emergency queens not getting mated in September and October, but mite issues were not as bad. I didn't have the gear to let them expand so I paid that price. This year, had the NUCs ready to go 3 high if they wanted.....
> 
> ...


I just don't see "expanding / establish / settle in", happen in the fall. Seems like by then, I've got what I got.



Michael Palmer said:


> I start mid-june when my first queens are available, and go to mid-july. The earliest made explode, and need 3 stories, and draw several frames of foundation. Those made in July can struggle to draw any foundation, and wind up getting comb so they can raise lots of brood and store honey from the fall flow. The OP is talking about making nucs in Texas after the flow has ended. Really difficult for bees to build up under those conditions.


Exactly. The concepts apply but you can't use a calendar from Vermont in Texas. Our first queens are available from the local breeders about April 1 - and you'll want them a month earlier (they had them then but were using them in their own operation). Mid-June, the flow is over - typical Honey harvest is July 4th (based on a false hope that the flow will continue). 



marshmasterpat said:


> Going to start feeding Global patties this week in small control amounts plus syrup to jump start what I didn't kill through neglect. Long range weather forecast shows only a few days below 60 degrees between now and Christmas plus nights mainly in mid 50s. So small increases to brood cluster should be ok I am assuming.


I'm always hesitant to feed patties as anything there 5 days or so becomes SHB habitat. I don't find the bees wanting to start brooding until January, if they have enough stores, I see feeding as encouraging them to backfill and counter productive to spring build up.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

ChuckReburn said:


> Exactly. The concepts apply but you can't use a calendar from Vermont in Texas. Our first queens are available from the local breeders about April 1 - and you'll want them a month earlier (they had them then but were using them in their own operation). Mid-June, the flow is over - typical Honey harvest is July 4th (based on a false hope that the flow will continue).


So trying to fit that schedule into the way I work, the time for making nucs mid-April, to mid-May. That way you're doing the work on a flow. The queens get mated and accepted. The bees are able to draw new comb. The population is able to build up before the dearth. If you find you have a swarming/absconding problem, increase the size of the cavity by adding additional comb for brood/honey, or removing brood and bees to keep the colony size manageable. Bees are bees, and you just have to learn how to work with them and not against them...in your flows.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

marshm.... and chuck

From chuck


> I just don't see "expanding / establish / settle in", happen in the fall. Seems like by then, I've got what I got.


I had two basically nucs (they were may swarms that in july only had one 10 frame medium built each)

At the end of august I slamed 3 gal of 2 to 1 sugar water on them over 6 days. They started some small amount of comb building. By october one of them built out the second medium (I am assuming fall flow) and one not so much, only about a third of the medium on it. (I don't really understand why the big differrance as bee wise they looked simular). 

I still have to learn the when and why of things to have a chance of successful expantion instead of just setting bees up for a fall. My origional plan was to look in early april and see if any of the hives had started queen cells and then just move those queen cells and spilt the hives in half or to try shaking them at that time (teranov? style) and let what happens happen.

Marshm....
I am sorry for your pain and jumped in on this thread to try and gain a bit more knowlage and so thanks for letting me tag along and thanks for sharing.
Cheers
gww
Ps Micheal posted his helpful post at the same time I posted this.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

I badly neglected my nuc project this year, but they did fairly well in spite of me. After a period of cold, rainy weather I found that covers had blown off, but most of them were still thriving anyway, even being exposed to the weather. Most boxes were still well populated, only one was dead and empty.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

GWW, in Farmington, MO there is a good beekeeper that sells overwintered nucs. His queens are awesome for the area. I bought 10 two years ago just to bring in a different line of drones. I am south of you in the top of Arkansas. These nucs did well. Sent them to Calif with everything else. Lost one which is about normal for all the traveling. Two of the queens we used for breeders. Missouribees.com I let him know I was pleased but we rarely go back to the same place for bees. You can get the overwintered bees in the middle of March.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Hillbilly
I may be a little bit weird in my thinking and in for some bad surprizes. I did buy one set of bees from a guy that lives about a mile and a half away from me. I did this cause my first year of trapping was a failure. I have finaly bought a smoker after using my homemade smoker for a year. My daughter bought me a real cheap smock with viel and I use it more then the ones I had made but was doing ok with my home made viels. I built all my hives with oak (heavy) including foundationless frames cause that is what grows around here (no pine). I also did catch 3 swarms this year. My goals are in the beginning are that even if I am not the most productive, to buy nothing untill and if the bees make enough to buy it.

I have never been around bees before and didn't want to buy a bunch of stuff that I ended up giving away on craigs list if I found that bees where not for me.

In the beginning I would like to see if I can expand and learn with what I have come up with till I learn what direction I want to go. In other words, If I harvest enough honey and then it sits around unused because I am too lazy to sell it, I would just try to keep a couple alive cause I like being at home. If I get gung hoe then I might expand like crazy. I just don't know right now but am really having fun trying to learn a little with low cost till I know enough to decide more.

I do like knowing about missouribees.com since my priorities might change but right now I just sorta want to see what I can do on my own. Like I said, I might be in for a rude awakining. I am a very cheep person and sometimes that bites me also. I am still building equiptment an have lots more equiptment then I have bees Though they might rot and have to be switched pretty often cause I don't paint. I am taking it one step at a time and hoping I can learn enough from you guys to expand enough to replace dead outs as they happen so I don't have to buy bees. If I get to that point and if I make a little money I may spend it on bee things or expansion or I might just give it to the wife.

I am so dumb now and there are so many ways to skin a cat that right now I don't know where to turn or my own mind on what I want to do.

Thanks for letting me know that missouribees is there and that you liked them. 
gww

Ps As far as diversity goes. My three hives seem to have small color and maby size differances with one being yellow in a more bland gray way then the other two hives and all three look a little differrent and also act a bit differrent to me. Who knows what I am catching or what I bought but mostly I would say they are mutts.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

gww, thats a cool story. I bet that attitude has not been used very much when it comes to beekeeping. You can't get hurt if that's how you are doing it. There is nothing saying you cant succeed doing it exactly like your doing it. Your in the right place to learn. Everyone on here learns something. Bee's are a blast on a small scale. I miss it. Good luck with your bees. One more thing. dont give the money to the wife.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Hillbillybees said:


> gww, thats a cool story. I bet that attitude has not been used very much when it comes to beekeeping. You can't get hurt if that's how you are doing it. There is nothing saying you cant succeed doing it exactly like your doing it. Your in the right place to learn. Everyone on here learns something. Bee's are a blast on a small scale. I miss it. Good luck with your bees. One more thing. dont give the money to the wife.


I only wanted to quote a small portion but my mouse wouldn't highlight just a little. 

Every body learns here but they learn lots of ways to do the same thing. Not good for an indecisive person trying to pick one thing that will work. I usually do pick one though and run with it and see what happens.

Don't give it to the wife.
Ha ha.
Cheers
gww


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> Those made in July can struggle to draw any foundation, and wind up getting comb so they can raise lots of brood and store honey from the fall flow. The OP is talking about making nucs in Texas after the flow has ended. Really difficult for bees to build up under those conditions.


Mid Atlantic- overwintered nucs made at the end of the flow or just after it (late June- mid early July) with new Queens. We might get a little bit of a fall flow. Most get fed heavily and most will expand and draw out foundation in the second nuc box. It can take a lot of feed- average of 6 gallons I am thinking. Maybe more. Most will draw out the foundation, build up most years. The feeding and labor to do it is definitely an added cost (time, labor, and feed) but when they work- and are strong next Spring they sure seem worth it.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

gww said:


> Marshm....
> I am sorry for your pain and jumped in on this thread to try and gain a bit more knowlage and so thanks for letting me tag along and thanks for sharing.
> Cheers
> gww
> Ps Micheal posted his helpful post at the same time I posted this.


Please don't worry about jumping in and making comments. That is what this site is for in my opinion. Learning from others when I listen LOL.

Thought I had a chance looking at the last two falls flows, heavy pollen and strong honey from goldenrod. Like I said, I had several NUCs turn into brood bombs in less than a week or so in 2014 and 2015 and then swarmed. But I was not closely watching and most the queens failed to mate so it was a double loss. So I was hoping versus thinking clearly this fall, live and learn.

Thanks guys


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Marshm....
I went back to reading mels ots queen rearing and he seems to be in a zone simular to mine. He seems to start his nucs on july 1st or so. This of course is if I am not confused on this also. I understand the spring split but thought in Michaels vidio that I mentioned earlier that later spits gained by being able to be smaller due to the wether at that time of year making heating the hive a non issue. As soon as I get time I am going to watch it again as it is never my intention to misunderstand things and then spred them.

I am new and so even though I do a lot of reading it is hard to put it to practical experiance and easy to get confused. I like the real life experiances that are happening now and then try to garner what I can from them. This is the reason I am thankful that you share your experiance. Even if part of it is that you are a busy guy and that plays into it. It is all good to know.
Thanks
gww


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

gww said:


> I understand the spring split but thought in Michaels vidio that I mentioned earlier that later spits gained by being able to be smaller due to the wether at that time of year making heating the hive a non issue. As soon as I get time I am going to watch it again as it is never my intention to misunderstand things and then spred them.


Well, yes that's part of it. You can make a nucleus colony with less resources as the nights aren't cold and they don't need so much to keep the brood warm. And, you aren't de-populating your good production colonies...by mid-main flow, you can identify which colonies are your non-producers, and sacrifice those colonies to make as many nucs as you can. They don't need to build up into full sized colonies for winter. I say mid-main flow because they will build up well and draw several frames of foundation, build up strength and store honey for winter. Those started after the flow struggle to build up and to draw foundation, and most won't store much for winter feed. Sure you can feed them and give them protein, but I'd rather not if I can make them at the correct time for their needs. Sometimes you get stuck anyway...like this year with the drought.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> ...by mid-main flow, you can identify which colonies are your non-producers, and sacrifice those colonies to make as many nucs as you can.


well said michael and doing this is working very well for me.

for my small operation this ends up being the bottom 20% or about 4 hives. they typically end up being the ones i find that are not responding to swarm prevention or perhaps a failed supercedure. i also take a few splits out of the cell builder (cloake board hive) when i am finished with grafting.

the result has been a dozen or more viable nucs per season which typically don't require supplemental feeding. these starter colonies eventually end up getting a drawn super or two as those supers become available post harvest, and they may get a few frames of honey at the end of the season depending on the quality of the fall flow.

some of the nucs are used to replenish any empty slots in the yards, some are used for requeening, and then any surplus nucs are sold. i transfer the honey supers off of the nonproductive hives when they are split over to the productive hives to fill and this has resulted in measurably better yields.

making these nucs is a very enjoyable part of the experience and i believe the process is moving the quality of my stock in a positive direction, all of that on top of making it possible for my apiary to sustain itself and then some. 

thanks again for inspiring me to incorporate these methods into my operation, and happy turkey day to you and the forum.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Michael P.....
I did watch the vidio of yours agian though I admit I skiped to about the 30 minute point in it and watched from there. This was my first year and I admit that I never could figure out the spring summer flows but did clearly see the fall flow. I didn't get my first bees untill may 7 by way of catching two swarms. They seemed to build up slow and I didn't feed them and so don't know if it was lack of bees or lack of flow but I watched pretty close and nothing stood out as being exceptional. On the swarms I get from here on, I will probly feed untill they get a little comb drawn. I have three hives or one hive and two nucs depending on how you look at it. I am hoping if any of them live that I can make one or two splits to cover any future losses and to do so more based on date at this time since I can't reconize a flow yet. I helped the guy that I bought the one hive from make the split that I eventually bought. I believe we made the split around the 15th to the end of april. I also figure that the flow must have been starting or going around may the 7th cause I caught my two swarms on may 6 and 7 and another one on june 4 that had been their for a couple of days before I noticed it cause it had a small amount of comb built.

Right now I don't need a lot of hives but believe I will probly lose hives pretty fast due to the fact that I have not treated any for mites. The guy I got my hive from doesn't treat and starting out I am hoping to keep some bees around with out having to buy anything and see what happens. I am not against treatment in anyway but more just a slow learner and willing to take a small chance on seeing what happens first with a split or two and go from there. It is the same reason I didn't feed the swarms till end of season. I wanted to see what happend naturally so maby later I would reconize where the help was needed.

Plus, even though it is probably not rocket sience, it still takes a little time to learn how to feed efficantlly and also to treat. I think I have the feeding process down if needed now (maby). I mostly just never want to buy bees again and want to have some around untill I harvest some honey and then I will reassess and decide where I want to go from there. You have 5000 hives and are on a differrent realm then I will ever want to be and so the sharing you do with the knowlage that being where you are has given you is a god send for a guy like me.

I would also say that I just love your vidio of the nuc inspection that you do with just looking from the bottom of the comb and pulling no frames. Your queen marking vidio where your hands look sorta like they have a bunch of stingers in them make me realize just how timid I still am while messing with my bees.

With only three hives, I don't have that many dinks (maby they are all dinks) to sacrafice in making nucs but don't mind losing one or two trying for expansion but am hoping to get it right without losing all of them and being in need of buying. I still have lots of traps out but don't count on them but am hoping to not kill so many bees before I get it right that I go with out.

I really like what you are doing but as you can see, lots is still over my head.
Thanks for taking the time to clarify/put more in perspective to the things that are on my mind.
gww


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

marshmasterpat said:


> ...Like I said, I had several NUCs turn into brood bombs in less than a week or so in 2014 and 2015 and then swarmed. But I was not closely watching and most the queens failed to mate so it was a double loss....


Have you thought about buying a single queen from each of three suppliers (for example) and setting up hives with lots of drone foundation or letting them raise their own drone populations by using some foundationless frames? One might think this would provide you with some drones for your other hives as well as for each other. Not likely to be strongly related if you pick Carniolan/Italian/NWC/Russian/VSH suitably randomly. Split off a couple of brood frames each from your existing colonies and queen them to grow into full colonies. A thought.



gww said:


> Michael P.....
> ....
> With only three hives, I don't have that many dinks (maby they are all dinks) to sacrafice in making nucs but don't mind losing one or two trying for expansion but am hoping to get it right without losing all of them and being in need of buying....
> 
> ...


Well, for me and mine, Palmer's operational pattern is what I'd like to try here in S.E. VA. Maybe with some hybridization with OTS (Disselkoen), as I only want to raise a few queens from several queen mothers rather than 50 at a time. Seems that it ought to work. But I'm a newbee too. Following Palmer's philosophy, if your colonies aren't producing honey for you as well as supplying their own needs, perhaps you ought to compare production against that of nucs you start with purchased queens as sketched out above. Then split the low producers into nucs and re-queen, possibly (for instance) using Disselkoen's OTS to make a few queen cells to queen the splits. But keep each old queen in her own split as backup.

Don't take what I say as proven-in-practice knowledge. I'm still trying to understand what I'm reading and hearing. Get into touch with as many of your local beekeepers as you can. Perhaps you can start a collective mating yard with everyone contributing something to it, if only frames of capped drone comb. Lots of drones in a frame of capped comb.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

der.....
I have been to a couple of bee club meetings but am such a hermit and just retired that I don't attend anything at a certain time and place regular. I would not be the best guy to collaberate with. I have been reading mels stuff along with everything else in the world. I sorta like what doolittle did way back when best or a terranov split where it is put back over the hive over a double screen board that I saw on you tube. I am foundationless and also could move the hives three miles or more away but don't like the ideal of having to move it. I brought a swarm home one time with a few new combs built and they all ended up at the bottom of the hive. Plus I just like to stay home. 

I don't want to buy things and so will probly not buy queens. I can make a double screen board but probly not a queen excluder and haven't bought one yet cause if you buy just small things, shipping kills you plus I don't buy much. I think a queen excluder would be very handy to have around for using to move nurse bees to brood comb and such. In the end I might just end up doing a walk away split or a sorta walk away split like is on dave cushmans site. All the options out there make it hard to decide what to do.

I like what mel writes but both mel and michael seem to move thier old queen two miles or more. Mom and dad have 180 acres 9 miles away but like I said, I like doing things at home better if it works. If I ever get serious and want lots of bees, I have lots of options as far as yards go. I don't really have bought bees but my three hives were from swarms that were all more then 3 miles apart and so inbreeding (If that is what you were alluding to) doesn't worry me.

I have found this thread and all its content very interesting.
gww


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

It was to address the "failed to mate" that I was suggesting drone comb in other hives with other queen lines. If you have too few drones, the queens won't get mated well. Of course, if you have too many hungry birds in the vicinity, that also might be a limiting factor, and extra drones might not help much except to dull the appetite of the birds. Also, knowing only what I read, if you have insufficiently varied genetics in the local wild stock or the queens mate with their sibling drones, even mated queens might lay "diploid drones." The hives might not appear to have a working queen if the workers remove them as they are reportedly inclined to do.

The issue of non-productive hives was the other target -- split them up and add outside queens to get some different stock. I'm no spring chicken myself -- well, maybe from the spring before last -- and getting some honey out of the deal without waiting too many years seems too good an idea not to "spring" for one queen as a test. Maybe one of the locals you haven't yet met will give you a queen cell as a test. Put it into a nuc with a couple of frames of capped and emerging brood, and you won't have to move it anywhere. A queen with comb to lay in and emerging bees to do nurse/house service and maybe some nectar and pollen is reported to be a pretty stable setup. The young bees know nowhere else to go even if the foragers go back home. however short a distance you may have placed the nuc from the old hive. Again, this is from reports, but agrees with my experience this past summer.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

der
I think I was getting your point. I only have about 65 medium combs built out at this time and comb is another issue that I am hoping time will cure though swarming due to lack of comb might slow me down a bit. I am hoping the bees live first and then hoping for honey some time soon so my wife doesn't think I am wasting my time when I could be doing something productive for her.

Right now I am just playing and trying to learn a bit. I don't know about the birds but I do have a lizard living in an empty hive and did knock of a preying mantis that had set up shop right at an entrance to one of my hives. I also saw about 50 dragon flys hanging around. It seems like a dangerous world for bees around my hives. I am sure there are plenty of skunks around also. I have seen one in my yard before. I bought one hive from a local and also spent maby $75 on sugar and so I am not totally against trying to get something going but I can't pretend I am danial boone living off the land if I don't do some of it for myself. I do want some honey but don't have the needs of someone who is counting on being successful. I just want to be successful as a matter of pride. I sawed all my own boards and built my frames and equiptment and I bet if I were to add it up and keep track, I would not be getting that good of a deal.

I will become more professional when I learn a bit more of how things really work. I do sorta figure that you cannot really figure out how things really work unless you run right on the edge of failure cause if you provide too much you then really have no ideal on wether it was needed or just a perk. I figure that if I caught a few swarms that someones bees were doing well enough to have swarmed. It might be the guy I could get a queen cell from. Maby by catching the swarm I already have one of his queens.

I understand your thinking on getting a differrent queen but just think that only having bees since may that I need to give them a chance to prove out or not.

I also realize you were talking to the origional poster and his queen problims as much or more then you were talking to me but sometimes (though I can't type well or spell) typing a responce helps "me" get my mind set on what I am really thinking or leaning toward. That is the selfish streak in me that causes others to read what I am working through in my mind. 
I do think I am getting the jist of what you are getting at (maby).
Cheers
gww


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