# How you became treatment free?



## Knoxville1 (8 mo ago)

I think most small beekeeping operations are honeybee nonprofit.


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## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

The key thing is well adapted local bees. If your bees have survived 3 years without you importing new stock you are in a good position.

A key indicator of hygienic traits seems to be a clean (solid) floor, ie if the bees keep a solid floor clean they will eject damaged larvae.

If you have say 4 hives I'd suggest trying treatment free on 2.

It's difficult to give more specific advice because I'm in Britain, bees' home range, with lots of wild survivor colonies merging their genes into hived colonies within a year. So treatment free just works here.

Can you give us an idea of how many colonies you have, their origin and local forage?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Taylorbee said:


> Hello!
> 
> ....... At the moment I have explored Kirk Webster and Michael bush. Any book recommendations would be appreciated.
> ...........


Learn to use Search features of the Internet.
(Re)discussed many times.

Here is just one read - as good or better than most books.
TF in a world that treats | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Get yourself some of Cory Stevens bees next May. he only sells virgins so they mate with the drones in your area. The queens I got from him are doing a great job of dealing with the mites but your results may vary.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I was treatment free for a couple of decades, then the mites and beetles came around, I was still treatment free but then I had no bees.


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## HTB (Aug 12, 2020)

I started out treatment free because the guy I got my bees from was treatment free. I had done absolutely no research on beekeeping prior to buying my first bees so I just took his word for it. I learned on the fly and thankfully it worked out. Nearing the end of my 4th year and my apiary is strong and have only lost 2 out of 40 colonies to mites this year.

I lost roughly 30% last year but most of those losses were in a yard where I had to feed all year after harvesting honey. This year I moved all my bees back to my home yard and another property nearby after the spring flow at my out yard was over. The area around my home has enough food sources that I don't have to feed and that apparently makes a big difference for bee health and the viability of being treatment free. 

*Edit-I did leave 4 colonies at my out yard and lost one one mites. The other three were in good shape until I lost them to flooding from Hurricane Ian.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Taylorbee said:


> Those of you that are treatment free, who do you recommend turning to as a resource. At the moment I have explored Kirk Webster and Michael bush. Any book recommendations would be appreciated.


@Taylorbee:

Welcome to Beesource- glad to have you as part of the forum. The names you have listed are excellent resources. I'd also recommend that you read anything you can by Terry Combs.

Finally, if you haven't already I would strongly recommend watching this four part lecture by Dr. Ralph Buchler- well worth the investment in my humble opinion:


















Best of success to you as you explore TF as an option.


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## bkpr1154 (Sep 2, 2011)

Here's my answer to "How I became treatment free".
Began beekeeping in 1966 via the BSA Beekeeping merit badge and a very competent, and unique, mentor. Very seldom were any chemical treatments used, but if needed experience with treating diseases of tropical fish had taught me that-used properly-they would clear up most diseases. When Varroa first appeared in my area I promptly, and responsibly when administering, began treating my colonies. Also began use of other IPM measures to control Varroa. Then began the endless merry-go-round of treatments, colony crashes, and restocking of hives. Colonies that didn't crash were not healthy and, despite treating, eventually crashed. Winter of '96-'97 saw a loss of all hives and a realization that this was not working. Instead of using human -created chemicals I opted for the medicine used by other lifeforms in the natural world, natural selection, with some selective methods used by fish breeders producing show quality fish. (Methodology in ABJ Aug. 2018, Jan. & Feb. 2019 and theory in Bee Culture Oct. 2020) 26 years later I have about 5% average loss over the past 6 years (couple of 0%), don't spend any money on treatments, and don't spend money on bees/queens as I now have a resistant stock of bees.
As an added incentive to any considering this path, look at what serious breeders in the fishkeeping world have done with just one particular fish: the guppy (_Poecilia reticulata_). The first is the wild form, followed by a small sampling of what breeders have done with them. Although fish breeders are altering color, patterns, fin shapes and the like, beekeepers using their selective methodology to identify, enhance and maintain desirable characteristics and outcomes can have "greatly improved bees if we want them sufficiently" as Cale and Rothenbuhler put it in *The Hive and the Honey Bee* many moons ago. Best Wishes, Terry


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

bkpr1154 said:


> Here's my answer to "How I became treatment free".


Terry:

I was so glad to see your post here on Beesource- you are a wealth of information and a leader in this field.

I do hope you'll stick around and provide input from time-to-time.

Russ


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## Taylorbee (3 mo ago)

Terry: I live within 3-5 miles of other beekeepers who treat their hives, and purchase bees that were raised in a different climate. Even if Im able to breed or purchase mite resistant bees, do you think they will be successful in caring mite resistant genetics after they inevitably breed with the other bees in my area?

I am also curious, if you don't mind me asking, where you are located?


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## bkpr1154 (Sep 2, 2011)

I have also been surrounded by those who purchase bees/queens from all over the U.S. and those that use chemical treatments. The head of a local association (10 miles from me) has consistently brought in packages from other areas for spring sales. A few years ago, he brought in 115 packages for sale that turned out to be heavily infested with Varroa. He had to provide Varroa treatments to his customers for free and was warned that in our state bees are required to be inspected before being brought into our state. Most packages were dead by season's end. Such practices have had minimal, if any, effect on my bees.
My thoughts are that it is better to breed your own local bees than starting with purchased foreign genetics although, as Marla Spivak pointed out years ago, there are resistant bees/genetics within most bee populations waiting to be drawn out and expanded upon. As to genetics from other imported drone sources, as Dr. Meixner points out in her research, Honey bee genotypes and the environment (tandfonline.com), maladapted genes will be selected against and trying to increase genetic diversity in such a manner is not universally beneficial. Any truly feral genetics will produce more desirable drones and drones from your stock will beneficially affect surrounding colonies shifting genetics in a favorable manner. It also helps to inspire surrounding beekeepers to try TF (I have a few scattered about my county) and resistant bees further altering the local bee population. Dr. Meixner further states that foreign introduced genetics in the short term can contribute to colony losses and are unsustainable in the long term.
In following this methodology of selection given previously let me point out to all that it requires dedication and serious diligent effort. Fish breeders producing show quality fish do not just put fish in a tank and hope for the best. You have to be whole-heartedly involved in this process and go about it in a responsible manner.
I reside in southern Illinois about 50 miles east of St. Louis, MO. The active foraging season ended last week in my area.
Terry


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I have maintained a set of paired apiaries on a mountain slope near my home for more than 20 years. The paired apiaries are about 3/4 of a mile apart. One apiary is managed TF (with whatever magic method the breathless gurus are promoting that decade). The other apiary gets treatments. I have switched the particular yards used from one to the other.

The "TF" apiary sees annual colony losses of 60-80%, the treated apiary has annual colony losses under 25%.

I maintain that my TF yard (and every single one I have inspected on my tours) is a "population sink". Losses are made up by frantic splitting, queen rearing, and swarm harvesting. Most folks I have interviewed that claim to be keeping bees "TF" have a side-gig of colony extractions, and are simply making up losses from harvesting these colonies.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

If one had access to a remote field with plenty of forage and no beekeepers for miles and miles would any of the TF beekeepers suggest that the hives placed be treated and hopefully clean as can be of mites before moving them in? Or would you just jump right in and place a few hives and see what happens.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

if one had access to a location like that i might suggest they place a swarm trap or three out there in the spring, and given no other beekeepers for miles, any swarms caught there would have come from unmanaged colonies that survived winter in good enough shape to issue a swarm.

other than that, i wouldn't assume that any colonies coming with a history of needing mite treatments would fare well without them. i don't think you can totally eliminate all the mites by pretreating them, so the mite population would eventually recover, especially if the colonies don't express the trait of natural mite resistance.


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## Hoot Owl Lane Bees (Feb 24, 2012)

I began TF because of $$. I had 10 hives at our house that I had been treating as needed. Then I lost a very good paying job and had trouble finding another one. (I am over qualified?) Long story short I did not have the money to by treatments. I lost 7 of 10 the first winter but did splits from the 3 survivors and caught 2 swarms.
I AM ONE OF THE LUCKY ONES LIVING IN THE NAT. FOREST WITH NO BEE KEEPERS FOR 12 MILES ANY DIRECTION.
I get 3 - 4 swarms a year here at home with no hives at home. If I put something out with any trace of honey I have 1000's of bees with in the hour working it.
Between splits and swarms I have around 70 hives in out yards now and 1 small late cutout in an OV hive in the sun room.
That was back in 2009.


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## bkpr1154 (Sep 2, 2011)

After conversing with Russ here's a link to ABJ back issues-follow the archive links-where I spelled out how I used Selective Stock Improvement (along with the benefits of natural selection) to help bring about and enhance Varroa resistance in my bee stock:
ABJ Back Issues - American Bee Journal
BC has a similar link for their back issues: 
Archive Issues | Bee Culture 
SSI (aka: artificial or human-based selection) has been used for centuries in both plant and animal breeding. I recommend reading up on the subject if unfamiliar with it. It can be a valuable aid in bringing about resistance to pests and diseases, especially Varroa resistance which is necessary in becoming TF. Being TF with honey bees does not arise by merely giving up chemicals, worrying about apiary setup, equipment, profit, who or what bees are in the neighborhood, purchasing foreign queens from some II lab, etc. Those things have little, if anything, to do with being treatment free and having resistant surviving bee stock. One book I would recommend for becoming acquainted with SSI, and some basic genetics, is the book that started me down that path: *Genetics for Aquarists* by Dr. J. Schroder, TFH Publications. Since the haplodiploidy of bee reproduction differs from other life forms I'd also recommend the chapter Honey Bee Breeding and Genetics in *The Hive and the Honey Bee*. SSI is a serious undertaking requiring both effort and education applied over time. I will answer any serious questions on this subject and offer my best wishes should you undertake such a venture.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

bkpr1154 said:


> ... here's a link ...


 And for those like me who are technologically challenged, Terry's BC article is hyperlinked immediately below and I have included three quotes below that which will take you to all three of his ABJ articles in PDF format:






Varroa Resistance | Bee Culture







www.beeculture.com







Litsinger said:


> In the first installment of a three-part series entitled _‘Treatment-Free Beekeeping: A Practical Hands-On Approach’_





Litsinger said:


> In the second installment of a three-part series entitled _‘Treatment-Free Beekeeping: A Practical Hands-On Approach’_





Litsinger said:


> In the third and final installment of his _‘Treatment-Free Beekeeping: A Practical Hands-On Approach’_ article


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## bkpr1154 (Sep 2, 2011)

Litsinger said:


> And for those like me who are technologically challenged, Terry's BC article is hyperlinked immediately below and I have included three quotes below that which will take you to all three of his ABJ articles in PDF format:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Russ, I am by no means a technological expert myself.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

@bkpr1154:

In the interest of stirring the proverbial pot a bit to get the discussion going, I know that your writings have typically elicited some criticism from those who take umbrage with the position that your approach can be replicated in locations with less-favorable conditions (i.e. suburban environments or areas with longer brood windows). How would you reply in general to these critiques? Or maybe framed in a more positive light, how would you counsel someone who was interested in exploring TF, but is concerned that their environment won't support it?


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## Taylorbee (3 mo ago)

I haven't participated in the conversation much yet but I appreciate the resources being brought forward. Im excited to read through the material. Reading material to aquire a better understanding of genetics is a great idea and one I hadn't thought to take a deep dive into.


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## birddog (May 10, 2016)

Taylor bee, the first step to become successful at TF beekeeping starts with conditioning yourself to walk the walk there is zero room for half hearted beekeepers that don't follow through in a timely fashion. ,, Examin your first several posts


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## Taylorbee (3 mo ago)

Hey birddog, I appreciate your input and I understand your intended message but to assume, based on my previous posts, that I might be a half hearted beekeeper rubbed me the wrong way. I just finished my 3rd year of beekeeping and thus far have been exposed to many opposing perspectives. When to treat, how to treat, mites washes are accurate, mite washes are useless, winterize, don't winterize, the list goes on. I say this because this is my journey with beekeeping and I am on this forum because I care, and want to learn and in the process of learning comes mistakes or what you have interpreted as "half hearted" beekeeping.


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## bkpr1154 (Sep 2, 2011)

Litsinger said:


> @bkpr1154:
> 
> In the interest of stirring the proverbial pot a bit to get the discussion going, I know that your writings have typically elicited some criticism from those who take umbrage with the position that your approach can be replicated in locations with less-favorable conditions (i.e. suburban environments or areas with longer brood windows). How would you reply in general to these critiques? Or maybe framed in a more positive light, how would you counsel someone who was interested in exploring TF, but is concerned that their environment won't support it?


In considering the evolution/adaptation of any lifeform there are two major components: genetics and environment or ecology. I should have also suggested that a little education in evolutionary biology would be helpful in these discussions. (Something simple such as Wilson's *Diversity of Life*.) Anywhere that honey bees can successfully complete their yearly life cycle is also an environment in which they can adapt and evolve over time. Switching environments, like switching out queens with new genetics only restarts the adaption/evolution anew. As referenced in my previous post, (Meixner's research) maladapted genetics will be selected against, and adapted genetics will be favored-what is around me is of no concern as long as my maternal stock is allowed to adapt within their environment.
Expressed simply; Genetics + Environmental pressure over time=Adaption/Evolution. In beekeeping terms, the genetics of a local maternal lineage of bees interacting with the local environment over generations brings about the adaptions/evolution of that stock that brings about a stable host-parasite relationship. With the beekeeper identifying and selecting those colonies that are showing resistance and survivability the process can be accelerated to the benefit of all involved.
Researchers have already documented honey bees and Varroa coevolving into a stable relationship worldwide within many differing environments. Many of these resistant stocks exist as neighbors to non-resistant stock being treated by beekeepers. And this is at the heart of freeing yourself and your bees from treatments-resistance to Varroa must develop in order to be free from the need of chemical controls.
An area without brood breaks might be even more conducive to this process if the bees supersceded queens multiple times during the year. The beekeeper has the ability to make splits/queens in order to create a new generation from colonies that don't swarm/superscede queens thus moving the adaption/evolution more rapidly than waiting on the bees to naturally bring about a new generation.
Here are a few of Wilson's comments on this evolutionary process in *The Diversity of Life:*
"It is also displayed in wild populations when species are subject to new selection pressures, such as the threat of a new parasite or access to a new food source. The picture emergingof natural selection is one of exuberance, power, and a potential for quickness. The possibility is there for rapid microevolution and even the early stages of macroevolution." Wilson further states that the genetic component is the most understood part of adaption/evolution (although there is still more to be learned), and that the ecological/environmental component is the least understood. Major questions remaining for evolutionary biologists are more ecological/environmental rather than genetic and they mainly concern the selection pressures from the environment.
I have seen both adaption to a new parasite (Varroa) and a new food source (Japanese Bush Honeysuckle) within my stock. 
Also. if anyone views Ralph's videos you will find he is in agreement with what Wilson and I are stating and observing.


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## Radarharp (May 13, 2018)

"most small beekeeping operations are honey bee nonprofit."
Haha. Mine certainly has proved to be so.


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## bkpr1154 (Sep 2, 2011)

Taylorbee said:


> Hey birddog, I appreciate your input and I understand your intended message but to assume, based on my previous posts, that I might be a half hearted beekeeper rubbed me the wrong way. I just finished my 3rd year of beekeeping and thus far have been exposed to many opposing perspectives. When to treat, how to treat, mites washes are accurate, mite washes are useless, winterize, don't winterize, the list goes on. I say this because this is my journey with beekeeping and I am on this forum because I care, and want to learn and in the process of learning comes mistakes or what you have interpreted as "half hearted" beekeeping.


Taylorbee; You certainly don't sound "half-hearted" to me. In fact. I sense what I like to see in people considering this path-a genuine desire to learn and develop.


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

@bkpr1154 I find myself wondering what the actual loss/start numbers were for your 83% first year losses. If you had 6 colonies and 1 made it through the winter, I suppose this is within the realm of possibility for backyard beekeepers. But, many of us may never even have 6 colonies to start the sort of breeding program you are advocating. Do you see any utility in treating for a few years to actually have survivors to pick from? For example, I started the year with 2 colonies, I now have 4. Without treatment, I feel I would already be looking at going into winter with at best 2. With treatment, I have 4 going into winter quite strong and healthy. I already have a grafting candidate picked for next year, and the fact that they consistently had a large population, lots of brood and yet maintained a lower infestation rate of varroa was definitely a big factor in my decision to graft from this queen next spring, lord willing she survives the winter. But without the resources of the other hives come next spring, I would be looking at a very slow and precarious expansion of my numbers. I assume you would agree that genetic manipulation and selection is indeed a numbers game? What happens if the numbers are never there? How many years should a backyard/hobbyist beekeeper scrape by collecting a few swarms or buying a couple of local nucs before they say, “screw this. I’m treating!”?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

NUBE said:


> I assume you would agree that genetic manipulation and selection is indeed a numbers game? What happens if the numbers are never there? *How many years *should a backyard/hobbyist beekeeper scrape by collecting a few swarms or buying a couple of local nucs before they say, “screw this. I’m treating!”?


If after 3-5 years of the *small-scale *TF attempts you see that the numbers are just not there - it is time to re-assess the situation.
Going beyond that will not change the picture much, if at all.
Meanwhile, life is too short.

PS: notice - I underlined *small-scale.*

"Small scale" means - you are assessing the existing situation *without *trying and/or being able to alter it.

You can go for the *"big scale"* and alter the situation to your own liking.
But the "big scale" is out of reach and out of expertise level of most any hobby beekeeping - to bother with it.

So, the immediate question up front is - am I the small-scale or the big-scale?
Then proceed accordingly.


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

I definitely did more than 3-5 years, but when you never have more than 2-3 colonies going into winter, and that with heavy non-“treatment” intervention, the number game just doesn’t play out in your favor. I also don’t see the advantages of doing things like drone trapping or sugar shake controls when it’s much easier to slap some Apiguard on or hit the entrance with some OAV. Why would non-chemical treatments be any better than chemical ones? Or, put another way, why would colonies that require me to kill off large portions of their genetic spreading ability (drone trapping) be any better than one that needs a couple weeks of Apiguard treatment every summer and some OAV in winter?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

NUBE said:


> But without the resources of the other hives come next spring, I would be looking at a very slow and precarious expansion of my numbers. I assume you would agree that genetic manipulation and selection is indeed a numbers game? What happens if the numbers are never there? How many years should a backyard/hobbyist beekeeper scrape by collecting a few swarms or buying a couple of local nucs before they say, “screw this. I’m treating!”?


If you have a 2-6 hive "package" start, breeding to TF is a long up hill slog, hope you have 40 Years left to keep.

IF you need to start with NUCs or packages, fine get them get what you can easily loose.
get them to winter then treat. First spring summer, learn to split, IMO grafting is not necessary. If swarms are in your area learn to catch them, treat again, second or 3rd spring when at or near 10 to 15 hives, order as many VSH queen as you can afford, 1/3 of your hive at least 1/2 is better. treat first so the new queens start in a "clean hive" Since you know how to do splits, in 3 weeks split the VSH queens and make enough daughters to re queen your whole Apiary.
So then in 2 to 3 years you have VSH and F1 daughters.
now go from 10-15 to 50 with the best of the best hives as the mother hives, grafting now is ok, or just splitting.
I can do a 1 to 3 split fairly easy and triple hive count each year.

playing with 2-4 or 6 package hives is not going to get you all the way to TF for a long while.
someone has done this already,, has a 100 hives and can get you 20 years head start, seems unless you are a glutton for punishment why not leverage what they have done.

first you need some bees, and know how to get them thru winter. packages are fine for this. but treat
Practice splitting IE Increase, package bees or swarms are fine for this ,,but treat.
if you find you still like bees then move to the expensive ones, better to loose the cheap ones the first years.
find/ get the genetics from some one with at least 10 Years breeding and VSH focus.
then you may have a shot.
if in 2 or 3 generations they Mite out, then you need to understand drone saturation , and play in the 100 hive sandbox.
BTW you CAN have both for a few years,, different yards..

less than or equal to 8 hives for ever, then just order the VSH queens and keep getting the ones that survive in your locale the best.
Can also find a beek close by who is TF and talk them into a few NUCs to get started, or trap near his /her locale.

this is a little like trophy class bulbed flowers. You can get 6 bulbs from wal mart and breed from them, be a while before you win any prizes.
OR find the guy/gal who won last year and buy bulbs from them to propagate.

if you are the type who enjoys re creating the wheel then go for it with what you have.

just offering my experience/opinion,, likey each Beek has one.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

NUBE said:


> I definitely did more than 3-5 years, but when you never have more than 2-3 colonies going into winter, and that with heavy non-“treatment” intervention,* the number game just doesn’t play out in your favor*


And that is my point.

IF the existing situation is ALREADY favorable towards the TF (some places it really is) - then you are set even with 2-3 colonies. 

IF the situation is NOT favorable - you will spend years and years with poor TF results and will have nothing to show for it.

Surely, there are some "flip-flop" cases too.

But at the very least it is a good idea to *quickly *identify if you are in a strong pro-TF zone or a strong anti-TF zone.
At least these cases should be easily and quickly identifiable.

IF you are in a "flip-flop" situation - then more investigation is due.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

If honeybee genetics provide some (limited) resistance to virus and Varroa, the genetics don't survive the first four months in some hobbyist's backyard. Supersedure in the first summer *reverts* the genetic mean to the background pattern. In the colonies some bees will have slightly favorable genetics, and some will have poor. Survival will be no different that any other motley collection of wild swarms, and only gets worse subsequently.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I think Nube hit the the crux of the matter for the backyard beekeeper.

The problem is that unless they treat they will not have hives next year to work with and are back to square one. I have an excellent isolated field perfect for a TF apiary but the number of hives needed, and access in my remote location to VHS queens is a costly venture. So, although TF is a goal, IMO it is unachievable as I would always need to replenish my apiary with nucs from beekeepers who do treat and so, I am full circle back where I started not knowing how to start a TF apiary while isolated within a treating world that does not have feral bees.

Oh well I will plod along as best I can. After reading GG's post I guess TF will be out for me, not that I am not dedicated to bees and beekeeping, but IMO there really is no workable method in the near future to support small apiaries becoming so.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> I think Nube hit the the crux of the matter for the backyard beekeeper.
> 
> The problem is that unless they treat they will not have hives next year to work with and are back to square one. I have an excellent isolated field perfect for a TF apiary but the number of hives needed, and access in my remote location to VHS queens is a costly venture. So, although TF is a goal, IMO it is unachievable as I would always need to replenish my apiary with nucs from beekeepers who do treat and so, I am full circle back where I started not knowing how to start a TF apiary while isolated within a treating world that does not have feral bees.
> 
> Oh well I will plod along as best I can. After reading GG's post I guess TF will be out for me, not that I am not dedicated to bees and beekeeping, but IMO there really is no workable method in the near future to support small apiaries becoming so.


URSA
is there no place to order VSH queens up there?
the daughters drone all hold the same genes IE not sperm used.
1 or 2 could get you started.

you have the bees and the knowledge for increase, so that would be a next step.

GG


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

If I can get some good expansion next year with a line I’m optimistic about, I actually think I’ll be asking the two ladies who help me to put a post on NextDoor that we will give away 5 frames of bees and a queen to anyone within 3 miles of our backyard apiary if they come with a box to put them in and 5 new frames to swap for them. After over a decade of fighting the background population of imported bees, I’m thinking I need to be selfishly altruistic to change that background into something that isn’t 99% garbage.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWChesnut said:


> Supersedure in the first summer *reverts* the genetic mean to the *background pattern.*


The *background *is the key.

As I already stated multiple times - with dedication, expense, and enough expertise, going "big scale" one can alter the background towards the desired traits AND maintain the pressure.

Certainly, still need to select a suitable location.
For example, doing this project in a big metro will minimize a possibility of large competing yards nearby.
On the contrary, it would be silly to try this next to an existing large operation.

Case in point - Queen Bees | Lloyd Street Bees | Wisconsin (lloydstbees.com)
The guys are having a good TF progress.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

NUBE said:


> I’m thinking *I need to be selfishly altruistic to change that background* into something that isn’t 99% garbage.


As if you are able to do it?
Be realistic.
Do you seriously have several thousand bucks to spend?
Smartly spent too, if so.


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

Meh, even if I’m only getting a handful of nucs out a year, it’ll have some effect I’d imagine. Plus, I’ll get to talk to some of the nearby beekeepers and possibly help them help me by trying to convince them not to run colonies that are undeniably dying into the inevitable death spiral just in time for my healthy colonies to rob them out right before winter and carry their mite load for them.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

NUBE said:


> Meh, even if I’m only getting a *handful of nucs* out a year, it’ll have some effect I’d imagine. ...........


It will be a short-term effect if any at all.
"Some effect" will quickly dissolve into "no effect".

You are not the first guy ever who'd be trying this.

Should go for, like 50-100 solid queens from a reputable TF breeder *all at once* - to be talking seriously in your* anti-TF *zone (as you already documented). Then you have a chance to overpower the existing background and keep the trend your way.

Importantly - it will take infusions to keep the trend too, until some longer- term background settles in.
It is not a one-time deal.


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

Gray Goose said:


> If you have a 2-6 hive "package" start, breeding to TF is a long up hill slog, hope you have 40 Years left to keep.
> 
> IF you need to start with NUCs or packages, fine get them get what you can easily loose.
> get them to winter then treat. First spring summer, learn to split, IMO grafting is not necessary. If swarms are in your area learn to catch them, treat again, second or 3rd spring when at or near 10 to 15 hives, order as many VSH queen as you can afford, 1/3 of your hive at least 1/2 is better. treat first so the new queens start in a "clean hive" Since you know how to do splits, in 3 weeks split the VSH queens and make enough daughters to re queen your whole Apiary.
> ...


Terry seems to be explicitly advocating against this approach of bringing in more “foreign” stock, if I’m reading the article that Russ made it very simple to get to correctly. I’m just curious if Terry believes there is a minimum start number that is feasible to approach resistance breeding without treatment of any kind, and if many hobbyists/backyarders are ever likely to get to that number, if there is one, without treatment. Especially given that most of us probably aren’t willing to buy more than a colony or two a year, and that this purchase rarely augments what we were able to get to survive winter without treatment and is more likely to be replacing them.


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## bkpr1154 (Sep 2, 2011)

NUBE said:


> @bkpr1154 I find myself wondering what the actual loss/start numbers were for your 83% first year losses. If you had 6 colonies and 1 made it through the winter, I suppose this is within the realm of possibility for backyard beekeepers. But, many of us may never even have 6 colonies to start the sort of breeding program you are advocating. Do you see any utility in treating for a few years to actually have survivors to pick from? For example, I started the year with 2 colonies, I now have 4. Without treatment, I feel I would already be looking at going into winter with at best 2. With treatment, I have 4 going into winter quite strong and healthy. I already have a grafting candidate picked for next year, and the fact that they consistently had a large population, lots of brood and yet maintained a lower infestation rate of varroa was definitely a big factor in my decision to graft from this queen next spring, lord willing she survives the winter. But without the resources of the other hives come next spring, I would be looking at a very slow and precarious expansion of my numbers. I assume you would agree that genetic manipulation and selection is indeed a numbers game? What happens if the numbers are never there? How many years should a backyard/hobbyist beekeeper scrape by collecting a few swarms or buying a couple of local nucs before they say, “screw this. I’m treating!”?


NUBE;
Yes, out of 6 colonies only 1 survived the winter to become the starting point for an apiary built around its genetics for 26 years now. I realize that luck was also on my side, but I would have tried again even if all had perished. As to the utility of continued treating, at some point colonies possessing resistance need to be identified, and then utilized in improving your bee stock. GregB makes an excellent point in one of his posts. This is the point where you have to get involved in selective stock improvement if you want to become truly TF. This is where recordkeeping, testing, evaluating, observing, selecting, culling queens/colonies all come into play. However, I respectfully disagree with GregB that this is out of reach is out of reach for hobbyists or anyone else for that matter. Here's a statement from Tom Seeley to Russ that he forwarded to me:
_I think it is going to be hobbyists who lead the discovery/development of naturally resistant bees. They can take risks that the commercial folks cannot. Sometimes, I feel sorry for the commercial folks. Not often, because of how badly they treat colonies, but sometimes._
My hope is that beekeepers can do more than just "take risks" by engaging in a serious attempt at bring about resistant bees via stock improvement methods that have worked quite well for breeders of other forms of life. Those show-quality fish seen in my first post are not produced by people with a PhD in front of their name, but by serious, dedicated Hobbyists.
NUBE; your candidate for grafting (swarm, supersedure, and bee-selected larvae are better queen sources-but that's another subject) next year would be my recommended stating point if you were to pursue SSI. Since I can trace my current apiary back to a single colony, I don't recognize a numerical lower end to the starting point. Slow, but steady, can often win the race. It is not all numbers-survivability, resilience, adaptability, overall colony health and well-being-these are hard to assign numerical values to, yet so very important. Varroa counts are far more valuable to me in indicating resistance, tolerance and adaptability in my bees than they are for applying chemicals. We still don't know exactly what "ideal" number we're looking for in making treatment decisions. And 0 will never be a realistic goal. As to how long before giving up-depends on how much effort you want to put into it and when you want to start. A lot of people have talked about it for 30+ years without any sincere effort in undertaking it. For myself, it began in the winter of '95-'96 when every colony, appropriately treated for Varroa, perished and I again found myself, in the spring of '96, scouring the trade magazines for new replacement packages and a plan in my head to let natural selection be encouraged, supported, and propagated. And as fair warning; just as in the breeding of show guppies, there is no end game-I will continue to be involved in this process, constantly selecting and helping them along for as long as I have bees.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bkpr1154 said:


> However, I respectfully disagree with GregB that this is out of reach is *out of reach for hobbyists* or anyone else for that matter.


It is out of reach because your average hobby folk will refuse to spend the money (talking serious money, not some meager $300 for two packages).
Why should they?

And/or the average hobby folk are impossible to organize so to spend the money in unison.

A bag of poor cats (many of who still don't know how to make a split after 6 years of bee ownership).
Our local forum is a good example

"Anyone else" - is a different matter.
I never said anything about "anyone else".
Make a note of that.
*It is the "anyone else"* who can actually move the needle IF they want to.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> URSA
> 
> is there no place to order VSH queens up there?
> the daughters drone all hold the same genes IE not sperm used.
> ...


That will be my winter research. If I can access a few I will give it a go with a few hives in this spot. My concern is also with the drone population, probably non existent except for my own drones.


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

bkpr1154 said:


> NUBE;
> Yes, out of 6 colonies only 1 survived the winter to become the starting point for an apiary built around its genetics for 26 years now. I realize that luck was also on my side, but I would have tried again even if all had perished. As to the utility of continued treating, at some point colonies possessing resistance need to be identified, and then utilized in improving your bee stock. GregB makes an excellent point in one of his posts. This is the point where you have to get involved in selective stock improvement if you want to become truly TF. This is where recordkeeping, testing, evaluating, observing, selecting, culling queens/colonies all come into play. However, I respectfully disagree with GregB that this is out of reach is out of reach for hobbyists or anyone else for that matter. Here's a statement from Tom Seeley to Russ that he forwarded to me:
> _I think it is going to be hobbyists who lead the discovery/development of naturally resistant bees. They can take risks that the commercial folks cannot. Sometimes, I feel sorry for the commercial folks. Not often, because of how badly they treat colonies, but sometimes._
> My hope is that beekeepers can do more than just "take risks" by engaging in a serious attempt at bring about resistant bees via stock improvement methods that have worked quite well for breeders of other forms of life. Those show-quality fish seen in my first post are not produced by people with a PhD in front of their name, but by serious, dedicated Hobbyists.
> NUBE; your candidate for grafting (swarm, supersedure, and bee-selected larvae are better queen sources-but that's another subject) next year would be my recommended stating point if you were to pursue SSI. Since I can trace my current apiary back to a single colony, I don't recognize a numerical lower end to the starting point. Slow, but steady, can often win the race. It is not all numbers-survivability, resilience, adaptability, overall colony health and well-being-these are hard to assign numerical values to, yet so very important. Varroa counts are far more valuable to me in indicating resistance, tolerance and adaptability in my bees than they are for applying chemicals. We still don't know exactly what "ideal" number we're looking for in making treatment decisions. And 0 will never be a realistic goal. As to how long before giving up-depends on how much effort you want to put into it and when you want to start. A lot of people have talked about it for 30+ years without any sincere effort in undertaking it. For myself, it began in the winter of '95-'96 when every colony, appropriately treated for Varroa, perished and I again found myself, in the spring of '96, scouring the trade magazines for new replacement packages and a plan in my head to let natural selection be encouraged, supported, and propagated. And as fair warning; just as in the breeding of show guppies, there is no end game-I will continue to be involved in this process, constantly selecting and helping them along for as long as I have bees.


I do intend, at some point (possibly even next year), to let a couple of promising candidate colonies go without treatment to assess their viability. But I know what to look for. If I start seeing spotty and very sparse brood under conditions that I know they should be thriving in, I’ll be quite quick to treat. I won’t give up on trying to be treatment free and allowing promising colonies to go TF at times, but I’m unwilling to let colonies that would thrive with some treatment perish. I’m tired of buying bees.

I spent years not treating. It seems like it’s gotten even harder to be TF. A half dozen years ago I could buy some bees or catch a swarm and expect to get nearly 2 years out of them. Survival through the first winter was pretty much a given. After starting back up the last couple years, it seems that one year without treatment is nearly impossible, but maybe I’ve just been unlucky with my genetics.

I’m aiming for sustainability now. If I can eventually get there without treating, I’ll be thrilled. And I intend to always be selecting for moving in that direction. But if sustaining a colony with treatment until I can get one of my own queens in there that maybe won’t need as much treatment (none would certainly be nice) is what I have to do to keep from taking my chances with captured swarms or purchased bees, then that’s what I intend to do.

I appreciate your contribution to this thread Terry. Maybe if I’d have gotten “lucky” a decade ago I’d still feel the same as you with regards to treating.


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## bkpr1154 (Sep 2, 2011)

NUBE said:


> I do intend, at some point (possibly even next year), to let a couple of promising candidate colonies go without treatment to assess their viability. But I know what to look for. If I start seeing spotty and very sparse brood under conditions that I know they should be thriving in, I’ll be quite quick to treat. I won’t give up on trying to be treatment free and allowing promising colonies to go TF at times, but I’m unwilling to let colonies that would thrive with some treatment perish. I’m tired of buying bees.
> 
> I spent years not treating. It seems like it’s gotten even harder to be TF. A half dozen years ago I could buy some bees or catch a swarm and expect to get nearly 2 years out of them. Survival through the first winter was pretty much a given. After starting back up the last couple years, it seems that one year without treatment is nearly impossible, but maybe I’ve just been unlucky with my genetics.
> 
> ...


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

GregB said:


> A bag of poor cats (many of who still don't know how to make a split after 6 years of bee ownership).


Boggle! It's like the second simplest thing you can do as a beekeeper. Right behind pulling your wallet out of your pocket


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> Boggle! It's like the second simplest thing you can do as a beekeeper. Right behind pulling your wallet out of your pocket


You would think.
And yet!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

bkpr1154 said:


> As to the utility of continued treating, at some point colonies possessing resistance need to be identified, and then utilized in improving your bee stock.


As Dr. Kefuss espouses, the middle ground might be Soft Bond for those who wish to minimize their losses while also allowing resistance to be visible.

Or as Randy Oliver opines, _'All the advantages and none of the carnage'._


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good morning everyone.

terry, many thanks for joining the discussion here. while this is an open forum in which we promote the free exchange of ideas and civil debate, personal attacks while not stand and be subject to deletion by the moderating team. i appreciate the way you handled the perjorative comment, and i have moved the exchange to the appropriate thread.

i see that you too are blessed to keep bees in an environment conducive to successful adaptation against varroa, and want to congratulate you on developing an effective management and selection approach which fosters said adaptation. your field truth is noteworthy and your willingness to share here commendable.

we'll have many questions along the way, but for now i would like to pursue hive placement with you. you mention in your article(s) that you do not keep your hives lined up in straight rows, presumbably to reduce drift. as a recent student of brother adam's work, i found he too got away from lining up the hives in straight rows, and found that it equalized honey production among them, as well as reduced the spreading of diseases and pests.

when you get time, please give us a little more detail regarding hive placement, i.e. do you have a maximum number of hives per yard? do you strive for a minimum spacing between hives? do you attempt to face nearby hives in different directions, and perhaps strive to have different visual backdrops for each hive? do you mark the front of the hives in any way do provide visual cues distinguishing one from another? ect.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

NUBE said:


> Terry seems to be explicitly advocating against this approach of bringing in more “foreign” stock,


Nube
My comment was to @ursa_minor As I recall there are only ursa's bees in a remote area.
So all stock is foreign.
The idea being in clean bees a VHS queen line may do fine, if most of the mite are killed and the new stock can handle the few left.
Not sure Terry's discussion was for this instance.

GG


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My grandparents and my mom were organic gardeners and that has always been my philosophy in general. I didn't treat when I kept bees before Varroa. When Varroa arrived I was losing all my bees so I finally tried treating. I continued to lose all my bees. I read everything I could find on treatment free. Dee Lusby, Kirk Webster, many of the people here on Beesource, which is how I found Beesource. I had seen small cell foundation for sale in a Brushy Mt. catalog and it said you should be an experienced beekeeper to use it. This baffled me as I was an experienced beekeeper, but had no idea how to use it. Which started my research. I currently have about the same losses as the people in my state in a given winter, which is that some winters have good survival and some don't.

BTW it's all Terry's fault that I got into bees in the first place. He used to take me around getting wasp nests that he would transplant to his home. That was my first experience with stinging insects and it was fascinating.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Michael Bush said:


> ... that has always been my philosophy in general.


@Michael Bush:

Glad to see you back on the board.


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