# Touching top bars in Layens hive



## RPA2019

So why use touching top bars in the Layens hive. I know Leo Sharaskin states it helps retain heat and minimizes disturbance during inspections. When using open top bars and a cover cloth I see less disturbance during inspections. All you do is peel back the cloth and peek down in maybe a few bee come up to see what is going on. With the touching top bars you crack the propolis seal and the bees "go wild". The open top bars also give you many other options for you hive, like being able to emergency feed in the winter, or using in a vertical style hive. Even Layens himself used the open top bars in his hives.


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## GregB

Exactly.

The issue with Leo Sharashkin is that he copied the modern version of the Layens practiced in very much sub-tropical Spain.
Watch the Spanish videos on the youtube - "colmena de layens".

What Leo fails to notice himself I think (and fails to explain to the others also) - Spain indeed is a pretty much subtropical country with non-existent winter.
They in Spain very likely don't even know what "feeding dry sugar in winter" is.


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## RPA2019

Ya, I don't under stand it. He sells a copy of Layens book and he even talks about feeding over the frames in there. It is possible he is using the current Spain version but I wonder if he is trying to adapt Lazutins ideas to the Layens. However Lazutins frames are quit a bit beeper.


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## GregB

RPA2019 said:


> Ya, I don't under stand it. He sells a copy of Layens book and he even talks about feeding over the frames in there. It is possible he is using the current Spain version but I wonder if he is trying to adapt Lazutins ideas to the Layens. However Lazutins frames are quit a bit beeper.


Well, actually - he is generally into horizontal hives.
No need to hang up on a specific hive here.
We are talking generally of large frame based horizontal hives - all it is.

What is illogical to me (Sharashkin being from Russia himself) he could as well be talking of horizontal Dadants and the long Ukrainians - THOSE are the authentic hives used very extensively where Sharashkin is from himself. Conveniently, the Dadants and the Ukrainian long hives use frames *compatible *to US Langstroth frames (unlike the Layens).


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## RPA2019

I was just thinking that the touching top bars in the Lazutin hive wouldn't be as much of a hinderance in winter with the depth of the frame. Do the long Ukrainian hives use touching top bars? I build my Layens hive like you talk about with deeper internal dimensions making it possible to use the 2 lang medium frames together. I however build the open top frames for the brood area.


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## GregB

RPA2019 said:


> ...*Do the long Ukrainian hives use touching top bars?* ....


No.
Now days everyone uses Hoffman style frames or something similar.
Cloth or plastic or wooden planks go over the frames.

Some very old hives (essentially antique hives) sometimes use the touching top bars.
I have seen few videos.


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## Absinthe

GregV said:


> Exactly.
> 
> The issue with Leo Sharashkin is that he copied the modern version of the Layens practiced in very much sub-tropical Spain.
> Watch the Spanish videos on the youtube - "colmena de layens".
> 
> What Leo fails to notice himself I think (and fails to explain to the others also) - Spain indeed is a pretty much subtropical country with non-existent winter.
> They in Spain very likely don't even know what "feeding dry sugar in winter" is.


Well maybe... but isn't he "Doing It!" in "Ozark, MO (Zone 6a)" which is hardly subtropical. "Smile" is based on Lazutin's apiary was Kaluga I think zone 4a or less. GdL was in France which only goes from 7-10. He does mention that so many milllion Layens hives are used in Spain, but why do you say that his stuff is based on assumptions based on Spain's environment?


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## Absinthe

I have just finished "Smile" and working my way "Horizontal..." and I have read or listened to every thing I can find by Dr. Leo. Here is my take on what he is doing with his Layens design. 
Not only is his focus on horizontal, but also on completely natural, or "treatment free" if you will, though I don't think he uses that term. So as far as feeding is concerned, he is probably against it, as least as far as sugar is concerned. The plans that he puts out for building your own stuff are not only based on the Layens dimensions, but his aim and focus in insulation concerns heat loss from the top. So having the frames sealed at the top with propolis would be just fine, as he is not really interested in seeing the inside of the brood nest except in spring inspection. As for Fall inspection, he is not really all that concerned with the broodnest, and merely wants to remove excess stores and close up the size of the nest. Remember, the goal is that you only go into the hive 2 times a year. He is not taking mite counts and doing sugar or ether rolls, or feeding sugar syrup or even actually doing much frame manipulation through out the year. It is a very laissez faire method of beekeeping. 

The other thing I see, as a woodworker, is that his designs, especially for making frames are way far on the simple side. And as such the design makes for a much easier pieces to assemble. 

The other side of this, both with Lazutin (may he rest in peace) and I am guessing Dr Leo is the focus on the local feral bee population. Lazutin's being the "European Dark Bee" and I have no idea what Dr Leo is keeping in the Ozarks, because bees are not native to USA, so whatever has escaped over the years and feralized and evolved to cope with the existing problems in Ozark, MO. But much of the philosophy involves these bees that know how to live and build nests in the wild for their respective environments. So the "natural" approach would be to provide them with a nesting environment that resembles a tree, and let them make all the decisions about how to build their nest. When they have abundance and fill frames outside of that area, you can take them away, otherwise, just leave them alone. That is the message I take away from him and his books. (not that he has written, or translated but of which he is an "editor"). 

Does this make any sense as an answer?


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## Absinthe

Right in the preface to GdL's book he says that you should be able to read this and apply it to any beekeeping you choose, not just using the Layen's hives, but also Langstroth and so forth. GdL was a botanist and apiculturalist, and the book is strangely titled to have the Horizontal Hive thing in it. The actual book that was translated was one he co authored with a fellow named Gaston Eugène Marie Bonnier (a botanist and ecologist) was titled "Cours complet d'apiculture" which if your French is any good you can read for free here https://www.belin-editeur.com/cours-complet-dapiculture#anchor2 and a bunch of other places. (I do like the page turning sound effects.) I believe the intent was to teach Apiculture quite generally, and his hive design was just the icing. I assume that you would likely get a lot of overlap in reading LL Langstroth https://www.gutenberg.org/files/24583/24583-h/24583-h.htm which is also in the public domain, but in English. 

The key takeaways from Dr Leo are to let the bees be bees and don't interfere. And make sure your hive is insulated well especially from the top, and either that ventilation is not that big of a deal, or the single open entrance is sufficient for winter ventilation. 

A lot of what I see Dr. Leo do with the YouTubers focuses on Single Deep Long Langstroths. This may be an economic issue, as the few 'tubers I have seen are homesteaders (think Prepper-Lite). So lots of doing what you can with what you have sort of thing. In the Long Lang design you are using langstroth frames, and they are generally Hoffman design as a matter of course. So when he does that one, he enables a second course of bars, which are like chunks of 1x4 and they sit together making that closed ceiling above the open Langstroth bars much like an un-ventilated inner cover under a telescoping top would be.


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## Absinthe

RPA2019 said:


> Ya, I don't under stand it. He sells a copy of Layens book and he even talks about feeding over the frames in there. It is possible he is using the current Spain version but I wonder if he is trying to adapt Lazutins ideas to the Layens. However Lazutins frames are quit a bit beeper.


As I understand the Layens hives that they use in spain have open slots in their topbars because they actually super them.


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## Absinthe

GregV said:


> Well, actually - he is generally into horizontal hives.
> No need to hang up on a specific hive here.
> We are talking generally of large frame based horizontal hives - all it is.
> 
> What is illogical to me (Sharashkin being from Russia himself) he could as well be talking of horizontal Dadants and the long Ukrainians - THOSE are the authentic hives used very extensively where Sharashkin is from himself. Conveniently, the Dadants and the Ukrainian long hives use frames *compatible *to US Langstroth frames (unlike the Layens).


Well, that is the Lazutin design isn't it? The frame is the size of 2 langstroth deeps. Or, he does offer the plans for the double deep langstroth, which has the framerest at the top, and the slot in the bottom, so you have to twist the frame a bit to get one of the bottom ones out. I am not sure how much beekeeping he did in Russia. But his apiary in MO has been going since 2008.


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## RPA2019

You talk about insulation. If you look at Leo's plans he doesn't have any insulation in his covers. That is why I changed his cover design to include insulation. He places insulation over the top bars in the winter haowever insulation is just as important in the summer. If you look at the Layens book that Leo edited Layens used open top frames however not of the Hoffman design and states you can make sugar patties from a mix of water honey and sugar for feeding when conditions aren't good for liquid feed. Leo lives in southern Missouri. His winters aren't anything like what I see in north central Minnesota. It is nice to have the option to feed if needed.

I took Dr. Leo's class and he does talk about feeding in some situation. I don't know if he personally does. And he does sell feeders for the purpose.


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## Absinthe

I think the touching topbars are just a simplification to make it easier to build. No tricky cuts, just 2 rabbets and some staples, and bob's your uncle, Fannie's your auntie! you got a frame.  If you are putting a blanket or canvas over the top of the frames, there is little need for beespace for the bees to come up between the top bars. As well, with the tops touching you don't need the over covering, you don't need the dado cuts and you get to make the top bar the same width as the un-relived portion of the side bar. The opening at the top is definitely a heat loss area, and since you are not supering the hive, there is really no need for them to come up there  They can still come out through the sides where it is relieved. or the bottom between the frames for what it's worth. And they will cut holes through the comb to actually travel between frames as necessary. It does seem that he has staples or screw heads on the lazutin frames to do some sort of spacing, but I haven't dug into those plans well enough to remember exactly, just know seeing the screw heads kind of threw me.


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## RPA2019

Also in his class he was selling Mel Disselkoen's book on OTS queen rearing and tells you how to preform it. He took us out to his apiary and was planning in preforming a split but decided to wait. He sells a new book on his site about queen rearing and in it he states that he used it to expand his apiary. He talked about grafting larva for queen production. So he isn't totally hands off but he seems to be treatment free.


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## GregB

Absinthe said:


> Well maybe... but isn't he "Doing It!" in "Ozark, MO (Zone 6a)" which is hardly subtropical. "Smile" is based on Lazutin's apiary was Kaluga I think zone 4a or less. GdL was in France which only goes from 7-10. He does mention that so many milllion Layens hives are used in Spain, but why do you say that his stuff is based on assumptions based on Spain's environment?


I was based on KS for many years and the Ozarks were south of me - there is not winter to speak of.
You see snow 1-2 weeks per a year if that much (just long enough to snap pictures and brag about it).

I am saying he must make it absolutely *clear *that Spain in USDA zones 7-11 and this is where the Layen's hives are used conventionally in the presented design.
So that when you attempt using this hive in Montana you very well may have different needs (the pass-through top bars one obvious example).

Did you see such clarification anywhere on horizontalhive.com or in the books sold?
I did not.


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## GregB

Absinthe said:


> Well, that is the Lazutin design isn't it? The frame is the size of 2 langstroth deeps. Or, he does offer the plans for the double deep langstroth, which has the framerest at the top, and the slot in the bottom, so you have to twist the frame a bit to get one of the bottom ones out.* I am not sure how much beekeeping he did in Russia.* But his apiary in MO has been going since 2008.


I don't follow - "Well, that is the Lazutin design isn't it? "

Lazutin frame == 1 deep Dadant frame + 1 shallow Dadant frame (about the same as 2 deep Lang frames).
Dadant frame == 1 deep Dadant frame
Ukrainian frame == 1 deep Dadant frame (oriented the tall way).


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## RPA2019

I agree.


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## Absinthe

First, take a look at his plans for the gabled roof. That one seems pretty well insulated. I do need to go back and look at "Smile" and see what Fedor is doing in the appendix where he shows how he makes a hive. But I fully agree that both in terms of heat in the summer (My Major Concern) and cold in the winter, that top needs to be seriously insulated. This also raises the concern of using 2x10 flat with an R value of about 1 is barely better than a regular single thickness langstroth box, especially if you wrapped it in a layer of the the thin green foam board you would get R4 and if you used the thicker stuff even more so. Hey, someone was recently talking about insulating the bottom from the stand. Not sure if that was here or one of the other places. 

I have some concerns and serious misgivings about some things from Dr Leo. Unfortunately, he doesn't return my emails so they go unanswered. I can forgive both GdL and Fedor L. because they are dead.  Dr. Leo, should reply to an email. But that is just my opinion. That said, GdL was an apiculturalist. He believed and taught and wrote about the latest cutting edge scientific breakthroughs of which were known in the late 19th century. So I would certainly expect to see him writing about feedings and every other treatment and breakthrough and aspect of animal husbandry and farming that was known. Dr Leo is more of a "hippy". His PhD is in forestry. Here is his CV.

University of Missouri
PhD (Forestry)
Indiana University
Master’s (Natural Resources)
HEC Business School, Paris
Business Management Program
MGIMO University, Moscow
Bachelor (International Economics)

So his agenda is the "natural" or what we are all calling "treatment free" beekeeping. No feeding sugar, no chemicals, no medicines, no homeopathic treatments. Basically, let them do what they want, and catch a lot of swarms. 

Don't get me wrong. I love GdL,and Fedor Lazutin, and LL Langstroth. These are the giants upon whose shoulders we rise. But we also have the people of our time like Palmer, and Seely and a whole bunch more that I just associate with YouTube. The jury is still out for me on Dr Leo. I am not sure he isn't just a person with books and speaking engagements, and now equipment to sell. He is selling the sizzle, but is there any steak there? I would love to simply follow the steps in GdL's book and Fl's book and walk away from the hive and come back in the fall and take my rent honey and not look at them again until the spring. And have them be there year to year and not have to do any intervention. That is a wonderful pipe dream. I am not really naive enough to believe it, but wouldn't it be nice. The bee population is way down. I can walk barefoot through clover any time I choose and no one is there to sting me. Certainly not something I could do as a kid. There are microplastics in everything including all our food and our bodies. The idea that hormone affecting chemicals can be GAAS and have no effect whatsoever on bees is amazing that we accept such things. 

We are not in the 19th century with GdL. But FL just died about 6 years ago. So we aren't far from his world, except for the location. 

When I was first on the internet back in the late 1980's there were forums, but we called them news groups and the feedback time was not nearly as snappy as what we have here. But one of my interests was woodworking and I found the woodworking forum called "rec.woodworking". There were two camps of people back then that would get into flame wars over whether what you were doing was really woodworking if you used power tools. The were not-so-lovingly referred to as Neanderthals and their hero was Roy Underhill who had a TV show called the Woodwright Shop. Whom I love! His writing and way of speaking is amazingly comforting and as a historian he is brilliant. (His daughter is quite the accomplished musician as well, but I digress). The other side of the fight were the power tool users and always seemed to believe if you can get a better tool you could be a better woodworker. And they all seemed to love Norm Abrams and were referred to as Normites, by the Neanderthals. the flamewars, though entertaining to watch accomplished nothing. There was a term for the rest of us and that was hybrid woodworkers. We use the tools we have, or the tools we prefer to do the project that makes us happy and it is still woodworking no matter what any one else says. So some days you pull out the hand saw or the chisel, and other days you grab the kreg pocket hole jig and reach for your festool whatever and so on and so forth. Ultimately we all are walking our paths, and hopefully we can get something good from each of these folks that went before, and are going now. So I want to be that same kind of beekeeper as I am a woodworker. When I do cabinetry, I use every power tool I have. And when I am making cigar box guitars I spend hours hand sanding and hand cutting frets. Same with the bees, if they need something to eat, I think I am going to have to give it to them. If they are being murdered by some kind of parasite, I may just have to fight back with some kind of treatment. Somewhere between hands off and all hands on deck should be a happy medium. That's where I want to be.


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## Absinthe

Is that the "Jumbo" I keep seeing reference to extra deep dadant, and jumbo langstroth something like an 11-1/2" deep frame.


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## Absinthe

GregV said:


> I was based on KS for many years and the Ozarks were south of me - there is not winter to speak of.
> You see snow 1-2 weeks per a year if that much (just long enough to snap pictures and brag about it).
> 
> I am saying he must make it absolutely *clear *that Spain in USDA zones 7-11 and this is where the Layen's hives are used conventionally in the presented design.
> So that when you attempt using this hive in Montana you very well may have different needs (the pass-through top bars one obvious example).
> 
> Did you see such clarification anywhere on horizontalhive.com or in the books sold?
> I did not.


I just started reading the GdL book. "Beekeeping in Horizontal Hives", which GdL was certainly in France. And the design must have been based on that area, Certainly no Russian winters in France. I think they are 7-10 so I guess that matches pretty close with Spain. Certainly the "Smile" book was based in Russia Zone 4, so I would think with Montana in the 3a-5a that should be a fair parallel. 

As for the designs on the HH website and those in the two books, I doubt Dr Leo came up with any of them either. Especially since he talks about not knowing which end of the tool to use when he got started and all the sudden he loves his table saw etc. I am assuming that he cribbed the designs from FL's appendix, So looking back at the apendixes it looks like there were 4 designs for the Lazutin hive. The first three were based solely on FL's hives that he used, and progressively got refined until #3 which is not in the book because it was too complicated and expensive, there is a #4 which seems to be credited to the Editor and designed by Evgeny Sharashkin. This is what think is the "insulated" hive on the website. Though I haven't compared them side by side. There is reference to having learned some stuff in the creation of these and the Layens hives. So this seems like a culmination of work and at least someone that probably understands construction and woodworking a bit. 

As for the zones and different designs, that is where my initial questions started. Why give us 4 different hive designs? It is fairly obvious that FL used what he had access to conveniently. Because the size of the russian dadant frames were what they were, he used them, not because there was some magical property to the standard Dadant width. Definitely wanted it deeper, but that is where the actual changes came in. His design seemed like a house that a person might live in. Stud walls, with insulation between weatherboard and plywood. 

Other than finding Layens' book as something to hitch his cart to, I am not sure where any jump from the Lazutin design to the Layens actually makes any logical sense. At least as far as the book and his philosophies go. I like the aspect ratio of the Layens, or even the modified Layens that we spoke of. And I know, but am not sure where I read it that there is some benefit to the narrower frame perhaps even down to 11-1/2" or 12" . But I can't find that document anywhere. 

But no, I didn't see such reference. But I swear somewhere there was justification for the wider frames in colder climates. But can't find that now either.


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## RPA2019

Yes that gable roof is well insulated and it is close to how I make mine now. I just have more room above the frames and use a cover cloth. The extra space allows me to put some feed above the frames in winter if needed. The hives he sells don't have any insulation in the roof however. He stated in his class that he doesn't use the 2x material anymore because of insulation and they warp easier. I have read both GdL and FL's books and I think they are both great and recommend them to anybody.


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## RPA2019

As far as the new hive design Dr. Leo stated that his dad is an engineer and helped his design the insulated hive.

I feel the same way about the frame dimensions. The narrower frames interest me, think it is closer to cluster size. Think there is a reason Warre also what with that size. I feel the Lazutin frame is wider than I need and a lot heavier and harder to handle.


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## GregB

All in all - based on my logs (which I report about) - the Sharashkin style of lazy beekeeping in my Northern suburbia is not possible.
Been there - done that.


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## Absinthe

can't you just put a feeder inside the hive? I thought I saw a picture of a little bucket feeder and they had just put it on the other side of the follower board.


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## Absinthe

I guess that is who Evgeny Sharashkin is


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## Absinthe

How about the Michael Bush style? I know he likes to use the phrase "Lazy Beekeeper"


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## GregB

Absinthe said:


> can't you just put a feeder inside the hive? I thought I saw a picture of a little bucket feeder and they had just put it on the other side of the follower board.


Works in warm conditions only (like raising nucs in summer).
Useless for me during the cold season.


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## GregB

Absinthe said:


> How about the Michael Bush style? I know he likes to use the phrase "Lazy Beekeeper"


I have a gripe against such phrasing - they never specify that "lazy beekeeping" is not possible everywhere.
Try "lazy" in packed suburbia and watch.
But people catch onto the slogan and go "lazy".

Of MB himself - he lives in a nice country place in Nebraska far away from dense populace and, it looks like, can afford to be "lazy".


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## GregB

Absinthe said:


> Is that the "Jumbo" I keep seeing reference to extra deep dadant, and jumbo langstroth something like an 11-1/2" deep frame.


Jumbo Lang (11.5") is slightly more shallow that then true European Dadant (12").


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## ursa_minor

I am a very new beekeeper, in fact, I pick them up this Saturday. 

I built the layens frames, two hives and two swarm traps per Dr. Leo's specs. I lucked out though, I made the hives extra deep thinking that I would put in a raised floor and styrofoam insulation underneath. This fact saved me some adjustments when I realized that deeper frames would be needed for our cold northern winters. 

I have since used a router and cut some of the top bar edges away so that there is a pass thru like the Langstroth frames. (as per GregV's suggestion, thanks again Greg.) And I am using both a cover cloth of canvas and cover boards of 1x4. The boards are so that I can place a styrofoam sheet right above the bees both summer and winter. 

I started following Dr. Leo's methods and although I am certain they will not work up here in the frozen north, he did one thing for me, he made beekeeping seem possible. He makes it look like anyone can do it. From there I found this site, and then all those Russian you tube videos that show beekeeping in a climate more akin to mine. 

I don't want to be a lazy beekeeper but I don't want to micro manage them either. Those Russian keepers have a method that, like Dr. Leo, makes a new beekeeper believe it is possible. Besides, they are great veiwing.


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## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> ...... Those Russian keepers have a method that, like Dr. Leo, makes a new beekeeper believe it is possible. Besides, they are great veiwing.


Absolutely.
Just persist and learn.
I got from Dr. Leo one very important thing - don't be afraid going non-standard and experimenting (even against his own teachings).
If to be afraid of ditching the so-called standards - we all would be still keeping the bees in the logs and the skeps.
The logs and the skeps - that what used to be the "standard".


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## RPA2019

Yes, If it wasn't for Dr. Leo I wouldn't be a beekeeper. I took a class on beekeeping with Langstoth hives and I lost interest until I saw a magazine article by him. Looking at his web site and taking his class got me started and this forum and Youtube has expanded on it and showed me more things to experiment with.


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## RayLesnau

RPA2019 said:


> You talk about insulation. If you look at Leo's plans he doesn't have any insulation in his covers. That is why I changed his cover design to include insulation. He places insulation over the top bars in the winter haowever insulation is just as important in the summer. If you look at the Layens book that Leo edited Layens used open top frames however not of the Hoffman design and states you can make sugar patties from a mix of water honey and sugar for feeding when conditions aren't good for liquid feed. Leo lives in southern Missouri. His winters aren't anything like what I see in north central Minnesota. It is nice to have the option to feed if needed.
> 
> I took Dr. Leo's class and he does talk about feeding in some situation. I don't know if he personally does. And he does sell feeders for the purpose.


I have built some of his insulated hives and frames. I will be getting bees this spring. Also from MN. How would you feed sugar or even pollen patties ?


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## GregB

RayLesnau said:


> How would you feed sugar or even pollen patties ?


IF you did not follow Sharashkin's instructions to the letter, you'd know the answer.
Again - the pass-through top bars is the simple answer.
I have been ranting this for years now.


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## Tigger19687

Dr. LEO'S book just came today. I bought his over the original Smile book because it is "updated". 
I am going to do insulated huve to use the Lang deep frames I currently have and another the thinner long Layens type and see which I like better. 

RPA, did you mean the 2x10 boards warp easier ? If so glad I de ided on the plywood/insulation/plywood type hive. Should be a bit lighter for me. I will be making a top that is removable and in 2 parts so I can super if I want. I will also make spaces between frames to go up like the lang frames.


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## RPA2019

Tigger19687 said:


> Dr. LEO'S book just came today. I bought his over the original Smile book because it is "updated".
> I am going to do insulated huve to use the Lang deep frames I currently have and another the thinner long Layens type and see which I like better.
> 
> RPA, did you mean the 2x10 boards warp easier ? If so glad I de ided on the plywood/insulation/plywood type hive. Should be a bit lighter for me. I will be making a top that is removable and in 2 parts so I can super if I want. I will also make spaces between frames to go up like the lang frames.


Yes,2x10 will definitely warp easier. Also you will also get more insulation value going with the sandwiched plywood.
I feed in spring in summer splits with frame feeder and sugar syrup. Winter I use a candy board or granulated sugar above the frames. I don’t feed pollen patties.


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## little_john

RPA2019 said:


> So why use touching top bars in the Layens hive. I know Leo Sharaskin states it helps retain heat and minimizes disturbance during inspections. *When using open top bars and a cover cloth I see less disturbance during inspections. All you do is peel back the cloth and peek down in maybe a few bee come up to see what is going on.* With the touching top bars you crack the propolis seal and the bees "go wild". * The open top bars also give you many other options for you hive, like being able to emergency feed in the winter, or using in a vertical style hive. Even Layens himself used the open top bars in his hives*.


Just a little bit late on this thread ... LOL

Sharaskin makes a couple of mistakes, this is one of them. Layens is quite specific about his frames: *"Between each top rail of the frames is an opening that must be closed. V-shaped or corner strips of metal or zinc are used for this purpose ..."*







*

"Instead of using V-closures at the top, we can cover the frames with a cloth soaked in melted wax. Many beekeepers have adopted this practice."*

Sharaskin also claims that De Layens invented the hive which has become associated with his name - nothing could be further from the truth: De Layens specifically stated otherwise: 
*From the Preface to 'The Breeding of Bees by Modern Processes, Theory and Practice in Seventeen Lessons, 
Second Edition Completely Revised, 1879,'*
_"Modern methods of cultivation are, strictly speaking, applicable to all hive systems, but their application is incomparably easier with the help of movable-comb hives. The greatest mistake the novice can make is to want to improve hives before having studied beekeeping seriously. It is not the hive that gives honey, it is the reasoned application of good methods, the hive is only the tool.
*Not being an inventor of new beehives, we have simply chosen, among the best models, that which seemed to us the easiest to manage, and the most in harmony with the natural instincts of the bees. This hive has, moreover, been proven in the hands of many beekeepers.*

In order to factually support the methods we propose, it seemed useful to document the produce of our apiary over several years; apicultural authors too often forget to support their theories in this manner. 
The author is willing to make himself available to those people who want some advice or who have criticism.
G. de LAYENS,
A l'Ermitage, par Belabre (Indre)."_

In the 7th Lesson, De Layens recommends the manufacturer of his beehives, but no further information about the original designer/inventor is given.
_"Seventh Lesson - Tools of the beekeeper.
Hive. - Here is a description of the hive we use; but, whatever hive may be adopted by you it is indispensable to understand it, and that you have a model before you. Mr. Von Siebenthal, in Fontenay-sur-Aigle, State of Vaud (Switzerland), is the best manufacturer of hives that I know, and he is at the same time an excellent beekeeper. This manufacturer has already built a large number of hives similar to the one I will now describe to you."_

'best
LJ


----------



## sparkyApis

I have not read Keeping Bees With a Smile" but I have been delving into Russian sites and came across a work by Fedor Lazutin titled "Experience the Natural Approach to Beekeeping". Looking at the chapter headings in KBWS the two cover about the same material. Given that my Russian is nonexistent I have been reading the Google translation. The work is non technical so this seems to do an acceptable job provided one can manage the brood being referred to as "the club", horizontal hives being "loungers" or "sunbeds" the queen and drones sometimes being "the uterus" and "testicles" respectively and a few others, it is quite readable.

Relevant to the current thread a few things struck me.
- Top Bars. Although Lazutin uses touching top bars these seem a matter of simplicity, he makes his own gear. He specifically acknowledges that it precludes feeding but this does not trouble him as he says he rarely feeds and if he does it is honey in frames nor sugar or syrup. He has no issue with conventional bars and a waxed cloth or other top cover. So there does not seem to be much case in either of these sources for touching bars, Layens did not have them (#37) and Lazutin thought them an incidental outcome of build convenience.

- Top insulation. Lazutin used either very thick timber or double walled insulated boxes both with thick top insulation. Top bars did not feature in his discussion of this. He is after all in central Russia

- Frame dimensions. Lazutin considers the deep frame essential but he does not seem to be attached to a particular dimension. His choice as I read it is motivated by convenience and ability to use existing materials. The width is Dadant width, that being the Soviet standard, and he considers Dadant and a half depth to be satisfactory. His expressed reason for making his hives deeper is that he can cut that dimension from a plywood sheet, he makes his own frames and he thinks deeper is probably better so why not. As others have said (#4), there is not much case for getting hung up on detail. There is also a good discussion of a number of different frame types.

- Frame width. He makes the comment that colonies will establish and overwinter better in narrow frames but find it more difficult to build up rapidly in Spring. He also believes that many of the measurements of the width of natural bee hollows are biased low because all the large old trees were cut down long ago.

- Lazy beekeeping. Lazutin proposes the idea that his hive would allow management with two visits per year and quotes others in support but then says that he visits much more frequently than this. 

I don't claim to "know" anything, just thought a slightly different perspective may be useful. The Russian is here
Опыт естественного подхода в пасечном деле. Фёдор Лазутин | Пчеловодство выходного дня


----------



## RPA2019

sparkyApis said:


> I have not read Keeping Bees With a Smile" but I have been delving into Russian sites and came across a work by Fedor Lazutin titled "Experience the Natural Approach to Beekeeping". Looking at the chapter headings in KBWS the two cover about the same material. Given that my Russian is nonexistent I have been reading the Google translation. The work is non technical so this seems to do an acceptable job provided one can manage the brood being referred to as "the club", horizontal hives being "loungers" or "sunbeds" the queen and drones sometimes being "the uterus" and "testicles" respectively and a few others, it is quite readable.
> 
> Relevant to the current thread a few things struck me.
> - Top Bars. Although Lazutin uses touching top bars these seem a matter of simplicity, he makes his own gear. He specifically acknowledges that it precludes feeding but this does not trouble him as he says he rarely feeds and if he does it is honey in frames nor sugar or syrup. He has no issue with conventional bars and a waxed cloth or other top cover. So there does not seem to be much case in either of these sources for touching bars, Layens did not have them (#37) and Lazutin thought them an incidental outcome of build convenience.
> 
> - Top insulation. Lazutin used either very thick timber or double walled insulated boxes both with thick top insulation. Top bars did not feature in his discussion of this. He is after all in central Russia
> 
> - Frame dimensions. Lazutin considers the deep frame essential but he does not seem to be attached to a particular dimension. His choice as I read it is motivated by convenience and ability to use existing materials. The width is Dadant width, that being the Soviet standard, and he considers Dadant and a half depth to be satisfactory. His expressed reason for making his hives deeper is that he can cut that dimension from a plywood sheet, he makes his own frames and he thinks deeper is probably better so why not. As others have said (#4), there is not much case for getting hung up on detail. There is also a good discussion of a number of different frame types.
> 
> - Frame width. He makes the comment that colonies will establish and overwinter better in narrow frames but find it more difficult to build up rapidly in Spring. He also believes that many of the measurements of the width of natural bee hollows are biased low because all the large old trees were cut down long ago.
> 
> - Lazy beekeeping. Lazutin proposes the idea that his hive would allow management with two visits per year and quotes others in support but then says that he visits much more frequently than this.
> 
> I don't claim to "know" anything, just thought a slightly different perspective may be useful. The Russian is here
> Опыт естественного подхода в пасечном деле. Фёдор Лазутин | Пчеловодство выходного дня


----------



## RPA2019

There was a study done in Romania where they compared Layens, Ware, Delon, and Dadant hives and the Layens, Warre, and Delon had s faster colony buildup in the spring than the Dadant hive.


----------



## GregB

sparkyApis said:


> I have not read Keeping Bees With a Smile"..............


I read a free PDF copy of this book (it freely available if one reads in Russian).
It is too bad that the Author passed in such a young age (under 50) - just clarifying he is not longer with us to say anything in this regard.

You have good comments.

I will say this about the "lazy beekeeping" - it is largely contingent upon 1)sufficiently locally adapted and sufficiently mite-resistant bees and 2)sufficiently isolated location.
The Author had both factors working for him and this must be made very clear.
The idea of "lazy beekeeping" will not work in a typical suburban location somewhere in the US (been there, done that).
Unfortunately, many inexperienced beeple will grab the book, get excited, buy the Layens hives and bees - and will promptly fail trying to do the "lazy beekeeping".
While the book is a good read, some of the ideas are not applicable universally (which a reader may fail to understand).


----------



## Gray Goose

Tigger19687 said:


> Dr. LEO'S book just came today. I bought his over the original Smile book because it is "updated".
> I am going to do insulated huve to use the Lang deep frames I currently have and another the thinner long Layens type and see which I like better.
> 
> RPA, did you mean the 2x10 boards warp easier ? If so glad I de ided on the plywood/insulation/plywood type hive. Should be a bit lighter for me. I will be making a top that is removable and in 2 parts so I can super if I want. I will also make spaces between frames to go up like the lang frames.


Sorry I am also a bit late to this thread.

I did get a couple of Leo's books, had sticker shock for the bootcamp/seminar, so ordered the books.

I did use the "plans" area to make a double deep lang hive.
Mine is 48 Inch outside to use plywood, in a waste aware manner.
I used 2x4 for the walls , 1/2 inch green ply on the outside, pine T&G on the inside Pink insulation in the walls.
YES these insulated hives do build up faster as the bees can cover more cells due to the heat retention.
I use standard lang frames so one cn start with a NUC or split or pull a split from them.
I have 1/2 inch bee space over the frames and then used 1x6 cedar boards for the "inner" cover, then a lid with 3 inches or styrophome in it for winter. Over all happy with the outcome , learnings I have from the whole shebang.
The biggest "gain" IMO for me is the impact of insulation, and this years project is some "buckeye" type hives to see if I get a similar spring gain.

good luck with your experimenting, I agree with Greg on the "lazy" approach.
have fun

GG


----------



## habattack

This is a very helpful thread to me right now as I'm planning to build a horizontal hive. I'm in Pennsylvania. I currently have Langstroth hives all with medium frames. I was considering a Layens as I like the idea of deep frames. Now I'm thinking of building my own with double-medium frame depth and insulated. Similar to *Gray Goose* above:


double-medium depth: I would either nail or tie-wrap existing medium frames together and cut off the protruding supports of the bottom frame. I assume the bees will cross the wood joint where the frames connect and continue building out below.
insulated box: all 6 sides (incl bottom)
closed bottom. I would probably have a screened false bottom with mite boards or trays below to clean out.
leave a gap between top bars of frames, just like Langstroth, but use a canvas blanket to absorb some moisture and make inspection easier

The features I'm struggling with are:
1. ventilation: natural tree hives don't have ventilation but the trees probably absorb the moisture. I think it's telling that bees will close off all openings in the fall, so I'm leaning to have no ventilation
2. entrances: probably one slit at bottom to one side. What about a second entrance? either at the other end or at top?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Hab


----------



## GregB

habattack said:


> Any thoughts are appreciated.


Go here and start reading from #1.
Been discussed, built, and tested for you.








Layens, Lazutin and Double Deep Lang... oh my


I just finished Lazutin's book and am currently reading Layen's book. Of course that has triggered impulsive surfing of Horizontal Hives and misc other deep box videos. I'm struck with a couple questions that some of you may be able to answer. First some context... I have all medium lang...




www.beesource.com


----------



## ursa_minor

I noticed on Dr. Leo's website they have now provided a plan for supering the layens. The super uses half size layens, and I did have an aha! moment when I saw the following graphic he provided. This allows me to use some frames with brood, albeit in the centre position, to pull the bees up into the super if they are hesitant to build comb up there. Up to this point I have been making plans to adjust my hives in order to super with med lang boxes.











I need to make some supers this winter for my hives and I refuse to by the pre-made langs as they run for $20+ before shipping and it seems that second hand they are not much cheaper up here. The main hive will still be able to have lang frames the long way anyway, but why I stress about having the supers do the same is beyond me. Adjusting my hives to fit a standard lang box when I don't have more than 4 of those on hand anyway hardly seems to be a good use of my wood or time. Two layens half frames from the super, positioned one under the other would be useable in the main hive if I need to add drawn comb.


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## Gray Goose

Absinthe said:


> I think the touching topbars are just a simplification to make it easier to build. No tricky cuts, just 2 rabbets and some staples, and bob's your uncle, Fannie's your auntie! you got a frame.  If you are putting a blanket or canvas over the top of the frames, *there is little need for beespace for the bees to come up between the top bars*. As well, with the tops touching you don't need the over covering, you don't need the dado cuts and you get to make the top bar the same width as the un-relived portion of the side bar. The opening at the top is definitely a heat loss area, and since you are not supering the hive, there is really no need for them to come up there  They can still come out through the sides where it is relieved. or the bottom between the frames for what it's worth. And they will cut holes through the comb to actually travel between frames as necessary. It does seem that he has staples or screw heads on the lazutin frames to do some sort of spacing, but I haven't dug into those plans well enough to remember exactly, just know seeing the screw heads kind of threw me.


As I have a long double deep hive I disagree with your statement "highlighted"
here in winter the bees need to go sideways in a long hive and UP in a Lang hive.
So the side ways will either need holes in the comb with top bars touching OR space above the top bars.
Mine have 1/2 inch above the top bars and the "1x4" boards on top to create the cover.
then a lid with 3 inches of XPS foam.
if the bees need to move into honey they abandon the frame on one side and move to occupy the frame on the other.
if the comb was solid the only other choice would be for the bees to go around the end , when they could break cluster, not always a nice day when they need it.
it would have been silly for me to make it with touching top bars.
And then yes I have the option to super or feed.
BTW I use the standard Lang deep frame, so I can pull a split into a NUC or start it up with a split or NUC.

IMO its magic is not the Layens or Lazutin frame.......so that discussion is IMO entertaining but somewhat irrelevant.
His frame is the way it is because he sells them, and the foundation..

So you can make it any way you wish, but do need to consider if your locale has any "unique" features, like a long winter. Then what is the impact to the Hive , cluster, etc...

GG


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## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> I noticed on Dr. Leo's website they have now provided a plan for supering the layens. The super uses half size layens,


Of course some years back Dr. Leo was advocating for the single level hive only because it was "great all way around". 
His touching top bars are the testimony to it.
Things change.
LOL

That supering idea is partially why I started on this project - custom mini-frames that go in to vertical hive OR the horizontal supers. 








CVH (Compact Vertical Hive) by GregV


So yeah, I made my first CV hive and even put bees into it yesterday. https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?350173-GregV-s-Alternative-way-to-keep-(have-)-bees&p=1837675#post1837675 For the spring 2021 will build a bunch of standard small frames so to manage this thing by a box (the...




www.beesource.com


----------



## Gray Goose

ursa_minor said:


> I noticed on Dr. Leo's website they have now provided a plan for supering the layens. The super uses half size layens, and I did have an aha! moment when I saw the following graphic he provided. This allows me to use some frames with brood, albeit in the centre position, to pull the bees up into the super if they are hesitant to build comb up there. Up to this point I have been making plans to adjust my hives in order to super with med lang boxes.
> 
> 
> View attachment 66583
> 
> 
> I need to make some supers this winter for my hives and I refuse to by the pre-made langs as they run for $20+ before shipping and it seems that second hand they are not much cheaper up here. The main hive will still be able to have lang frames the long way anyway, but why I stress about having the supers do the same is beyond me. Adjusting my hives to fit a standard lang box when I don't have more than 4 of those on hand anyway hardly seems to be a good use of my wood or time. Two layens half frames from the super, positioned one under the other would be useable in the main hive if I need to add drawn comb.


URSA,
why not do it all with the 1/2 size frames, 3 deep in the brood area, 2 on the side for honey, Have 6 frame NUC of the same size, for queen rearing and splits. . could be then one could extract those frames if needed.

GG


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## Gray Goose

RPA2019 said:


> As far as the new hive design Dr. Leo stated that his dad is an engineer and helped his design the insulated hive.
> 
> I feel the same way about the frame dimensions. The narrower frames interest me, think it is closer to *cluster size.* Think there is a reason Warre also what with that size. I feel the Lazutin frame is wider than I need and a lot heavier and harder to handle.


cluster size of Carni?, Russians?, Italians?, Mutts?

GG


----------



## GregB

> The narrower frames interest me, think it is closer to *cluster size.*





Gray Goose said:


> cluster size of Carni?, Russians?, Italians?, Mutts?
> 
> GG


Just so it happens that a winter cluster size normally fits into 300mm/12" diameter (often smaller, but rarely larger).
This is regardless of the bee - most all of them will fit inside - hence the Ukrainian/Polish/Layen's/Warre frames sizing.
These originate from back 19 hundreds yet - when people in the Old World still tried to emulate the bee ways from what they observed.

More commercial sizes coming from the States (Lang/Dadant) ignored that fact and looked at other things - how to make it cheaper, primarily.


----------



## ursa_minor

Gray Goose said:


> URSA,
> why not do it all with the 1/2 size frames, 3 deep in the brood area, 2 on the side for honey, Have 6 frame NUC of the same size, for queen rearing and splits. . could be then one could extract those frames if needed.


UMMM? Because I had a brain freeze? 😀


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> I noticed on Dr. Leo's website they have now provided a plan for supering the layens.


BBear, could you drop a link?
I did look but not seeing the "supering plan" easily.


----------



## ursa_minor

Layens Half-Frame & Supers | Free Plans | Horizontal Hives


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> why not do it all with the 1/2 size frames, 3 deep in the brood area,


More than one tier of frames in the brood box quickly complicates this.
Truly, I do enjoy a single tier of frames at a single level to work with - but indeed this creates a problem of "brood frame <> super frame".
It is always something to fess about. Oh well.

I have my hopes for more vertical hive/single frame experimentation next season.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> Layens Half-Frame & Supers | Free Plans | Horizontal Hives


Strange I did not see it. Thanks

Oh well. 
Now that I have a supply of home-made mini-frames, will be trying them out in my long hives vs. the commercial Lang frames.


----------



## ursa_minor

The only problem with the super plan is that it is still way too large to lift off. I would make them smaller and hold less frames.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> The only problem with the super plan is that it is still way too large to lift off. I would make them smaller and hold less frames.


A matter of fact, I specifically wanted my super frames to be small - this is because I want to be able harvest small-batch, mono-floral honeys.
Large frames don't really support that well.
Besides, I am foundation-less - small frames working out great for that.


----------



## Gray Goose

so has there been a side by side test of the shorter frame 12 - 13 inch and the lang frame?
seems this new size will drive a 1/2 Layens frame extractor.... anyone want to go in with me to make one?
I guess a Lang deep radial would take them so not really a need.
So a little cog in my brain thinks this frame size thing is irrelevant.
I have seem 23 inch combs in a 24 inch stud spaced wall, and 14 inch combs in a 16 inch stud spaced wall.
both doing fine.

I get the cluster wants to be round but is the lost heat efficiency a difference in the south half of the US?
And would insulated walls just mitigate that anyway?

50 places I can buy Lang medium frames and only 1 to buy the 1/2 Layens frame, just has me a bit skeptical.
IMO Dr Leo is a master of creating a market out of thin air.....Didn't his bees get wacked by mites recently as well.
I respect the guy in the cash flow creation realm. bring a known thing to a new place and pump it for a while.

GG


----------



## Gray Goose

ursa_minor said:


> The only problem with the super plan is that it is still way too large to lift off. I would make them smaller and hold less frames.


make little NUC type frame holders, to move , transport, hold extras. 4-6 frame.
do to my back I use the 5 frame boxes to 1/2 unload a super , then take the other 1/2 off in the 10F box, have 2 stacks in the truck.
Undo it in the honey house area, set down a 10F box with 5 frames , add the other 5 next...

Or make the "super" in 1/3rds add them 3 at a time to use the same lid or any amount with split lids.

Or.. designers choice.. 

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> so has there been a side by side test of the shorter frame 12 - 13 inch and the lang frame?


Not the Lang frame, but the Dadant vs. the Ukranian has lots of practical comparison (I did not look for any particular "science" with numbers, I admit).
I can provide lots of visuals right away that tell a very good story, however.
To get started, people wintering on 5-6 frames sounds outright outlandish (here) - but that is a just norm there.



Gray Goose said:


> I get the cluster wants to be round but is the lost heat efficiency a difference in the south half of the US?
> And would insulated walls just mitigate that anyway?


Does not matter down South.
In fact, the wider frames could be better down there for all I can tell.

Heck, we are still recovering from the winter holidays up here and down there they are chasing swarms already - the priorities can not be farther apart.



Gray Goose said:


> 50 places I can buy Lang medium frames and only 1 to buy the 1/2 Layens frame, just has me a bit skeptical.
> IMO Dr Leo is a master of creating a market out of thin air.....Didn't his bees get wacked by mites recently as well.
> I respect the guy in the cash flow creation realm. bring a known thing to a new place and pump it for a while.
> GG


100% agree - he is a great marketologist - that's where his real talent is. 
Marketologists are great a changing the subjects. Part of the job.


----------



## RPA2019

GregV said:


> Not the Lang frame, but the Dadant vs. the Ukranian has lots of practical comparison (I did not look for any particular "science" with numbers, I admit).
> I can provide lots of visuals right away that tell a very good story, however.
> To get started, people wintering on 5-6 frames sounds outright outlandish (here) - but that is a just norm there.
> 
> 
> Does not matter down South.
> In fact, the wider frames could be better down there for all I can tell.
> 
> Heck, we are still recovering from the winter holidays up here and down there they are chasing swarms already - the priorities can not be farther apart.
> 
> 
> 100% agree - he is a great marketologist - that's where his real talent is.
> Marketologists are great a changing the subjects. Part of the job.


----------



## RPA2019

*STUDY ON THE MAINTENANCE OF BEE FAMILIES INTO VERTICAL HIVES ON DADANT AND LAYENS FRAMES*
Carmen Nicolae

Here is a study comparing Dadant and Layens Frames.

I have seen A study comparing Layens, Dadant, Delon, and Warre hives in Romania. I believe it was by the same author.


----------



## little_john

RPA2019 said:


> *Here* is a study comparing Dadant and Layens Frames.


Link ?


----------



## GregB

little_john said:


> Link ?


Google finds it.








(PDF) STUDY ON THE MAINTENANCE OF BEE FAMILIES INTO VERTICAL HIVES ON DADANT AND LAYENS FRAMES


PDF | The paper presents the study done on the frame model technology and its effects on productivity. The productivity of a bee family is correlated... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Google finds it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (PDF) STUDY ON THE MAINTENANCE OF BEE FAMILIES INTO VERTICAL HIVES ON DADANT AND LAYENS FRAMES
> 
> 
> PDF | The paper presents the study done on the frame model technology and its effects on productivity. The productivity of a bee family is correlated... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.researchgate.net


hmm 
"the lack of Vertical currents in Layens hive determined the temperature maintenance and the bees lay more eggs"
"- The quantity of honey obtained and extracted from rape seed harvest is higher in Layens hives than Dadant hives, with 55.16%. With a stronger development in the early part of the spring, the Layens hives have a larger amount of bee for the first harvest of the year.Honey extracted from sunflower harvest is higher in Layens hives than Dadant hives with 32.81%. - The research carried out in the mentioned conditions (plains) shows the *superiority of the Layens hive"*
Ok then
used the word "Hive" not frame....which IMO is more accurate.
so the early brood up could that also be caused by "Insulation" with the addition of Warm way entrance?, shaved frame ears to get 11 in a hive, small cell.
this article looked to be a frame comparison, But IMO had deeper significance. Many have nibbled around the edges. Soon someone with enough sensors will take a bigger bite.









Buckeye Hive


More info HERE .




beehivejournal.blogspot.com





IMO there is a temperature thread running thru many of these "improvements"
warre has a quilt box and "less wood" in the comb
long frame (layens) has lass cross draft
keeping in the north gets more difficult as you go farther up.
wrapping/insulating can cause earlier brood up.
Small cell and close frame spacing has more cells covered by the cluster hence more brood can be kept warm.

GG


----------



## RPA2019

http://animalsciencejournal.usamv.ro/pdf/2015/Art40.pdf


Here is a link to paper on Layens-Dadant-Delon-Warre comparison in Romania.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> hmm


I scanned through this particular Layens/Dadant paper some years ago.
This is a rather weak paper IMO - I would not depend on this paper for anything.
It almost feels as if some college student research work - that is the level of it.
Saying this even though I am a fan of the Layens-like designs.


----------



## Gray Goose

RPA2019 said:


> http://animalsciencejournal.usamv.ro/pdf/2015/Art40.pdf
> 
> 
> Here is a link to paper on Layens-Dadant-Delon-Warre comparison in Romania.


thanks for the link, Do have comments and a question or 2. maybe some one can add some clarity.

If we study a bee family in these natural conditions, we will observe that they prefer a round enclosure, where they will begin constructing honeycombs from the bottom up *OK this must be a typo*

Knowing the major influence of the bee queen quality on the development of the bee families, only queens obtained by double transfusion, of the same age, from the same original bee family were used *so anyone can help me to understand what a double transfusion is, And if none of us use it , then is not this somewhat invalid?*

The number of beehives used was twelve, three for each model, *3 of each, really Maybe I can do studies in my backyard.*
In the preparations for the winter, an equalization of the families was made (Hristea, 1976), by adding bees the classic
way (smell uniformization by adding flavoured tea with water and sugar 1:1); *adding bees to some hives?? sorry then is the study biased, added to which hives, not the winner hopefully*

From the analysis of Table 6 we can observe that compared to the Dadant hive, the growth is bigger with: - 39.75% inside the Layens hive; - 44.60 % inside the Warre hive; - 52.65 % inside the Delon hive. This is due to the fact that the Dadant hive has a 0.050m3 and thus is very difficult to warm up, affecting the growth in the cold periods of spring. 
*Very difficult to warm up, I thought the cluster was warmed not the hive, this statement would IMO refute that. So a feather for Insulation then*

During sunflower harvest, when the difference between day and night temperatures is big, the Dadant hives suffer the greatest loss (31.16%), Warre the smallest one (20.44%), Layens (21.53%) nearly the same as Delon (21.27%). Being the last great harvest of the year, forcing the bees gathering nectar and quantity bought in to the hive is relatively equal, but in Dadant hives, bees wear out quickly being forced to work harder at night to maintain the indoor temperature. 
*work harder at night to maintain temperature, So again a feather for Insulation, and against large upper entrance.*

The overall conclusion is that the Layens frame with the interior size of 310 mm x 370 mm and a total surface of 11.47 dm2 is best
fitted for winter beekeeping and good growth in the spring. The technology must be adapted by adding a second module under the main one in the spring and by using the upper bee entrance during the summer. It remains however to solve the problem of obtaining flower honeys because of the large dimension of the frame. *so fitted for winter then this was a "modified Layens" adding the upper entrance for honey flow, so will it create worn out bees or greater honey production, which you cannot separate the different florals of?*

Again A temperature thread in this fabric.

So what we need it sounds like is a light controlled adjustable entrance (lower) and a moisture and temperature controlled upper entrance. so at night the entrance shuts down some and during heat and curing the upper opens a bit more. The "ultimate hive" would have non linier upper and lower entrances sizes, driven by known sensor readings of optimal hives and some insulation, initial starting points calibrated by weather Zone information for your locale.

I may be reading between the lines, But I do see here where my 8f will winter better than the 10f and I empirically see that. And Insulation, can solve the temperature issues, independent of frame size. Which I see as well. Wonder if a coil of dissimilar metal like a thermostat would adjust the upper entrance enough.....

I see a batch of cool way 8F Buckeyes on the winter list................

GG


----------



## RonC

I just want to point out that if you build the Layens frames as given on HH with the top bars touching there's nothing that prevents you from feeding your bees in the Winter. I just pop 2 frames apart above the cluster so there is an opening that the bees can get up and feed. I like the design because it helps hold the heat down in the hive while I am peeking in to water my bees this winter.


----------



## Gray Goose

Gray Goose said:


> thanks for the link, Do have comments and a question or 2. maybe some one can add some clarity.
> 
> If we study a bee family in these natural conditions, we will observe that they prefer a round enclosure, where they will begin constructing honeycombs from the bottom up *OK this must be a typo*
> 
> Knowing the major influence of the bee queen quality on the development of the bee families, only queens obtained by double transfusion, of the same age, from the same original bee family were used *so anyone can help me to understand what a double transfusion is, And if none of us use it , then is not this somewhat invalid?*
> 
> The number of beehives used was twelve, three for each model, *3 of each, really Maybe I can do studies in my backyard.*
> In the preparations for the winter, an equalization of the families was made (Hristea, 1976), by adding bees the classic
> way (smell uniformization by adding flavoured tea with water and sugar 1:1); *adding bees to some hives?? sorry then is the study biased, added to which hives, not the winner hopefully*
> 
> From the analysis of Table 6 we can observe that compared to the Dadant hive, the growth is bigger with: - 39.75% inside the Layens hive; - 44.60 % inside the Warre hive; - 52.65 % inside the Delon hive. This is due to the fact that the Dadant hive has a 0.050m3 and thus is very difficult to warm up, affecting the growth in the cold periods of spring.
> *Very difficult to warm up, I thought the cluster was warmed not the hive, this statement would IMO refute that. So a feather for Insulation then*
> 
> During sunflower harvest, when the difference between day and night temperatures is big, the Dadant hives suffer the greatest loss (31.16%), Warre the smallest one (20.44%), Layens (21.53%) nearly the same as Delon (21.27%). Being the last great harvest of the year, forcing the bees gathering nectar and quantity bought in to the hive is relatively equal, but in Dadant hives, bees wear out quickly being forced to work harder at night to maintain the indoor temperature.
> *work harder at night to maintain temperature, So again a feather for Insulation, and against large upper entrance.*
> 
> The overall conclusion is that the Layens frame with the interior size of 310 mm x 370 mm and a total surface of 11.47 dm2 is best
> fitted for winter beekeeping and good growth in the spring. The technology must be adapted by adding a second module under the main one in the spring and by using the upper bee entrance during the summer. It remains however to solve the problem of obtaining flower honeys because of the large dimension of the frame. *so fitted for winter then this was a "modified Layens" adding the upper entrance for honey flow, so will it create worn out bees or greater honey production, which you cannot separate the different florals of?*
> 
> Again A temperature thread in this fabric.
> 
> So what we need it sounds like is a light controlled adjustable entrance (lower) and a moisture and temperature controlled upper entrance. so at night the entrance shuts down some and during heat and curing the upper opens a bit more. The "ultimate hive" would have non linier upper and lower entrances sizes, driven by known sensor readings of optimal hives and some insulation, initial starting points calibrated by weather Zone information for your locale.
> 
> I may be reading between the lines, But I do see here where my 8f will winter better than the 10f and I empirically see that. And Insulation, can solve the temperature issues, independent of frame size. Which I see as well. Wonder if a coil of dissimilar metal like a thermostat would adjust the upper entrance enough.....
> 
> I see a batch of cool way 8F Buckeyes on the winter list................
> 
> GG


So its been a month
any one know what *double transfusion* raised queens are?

GG

GG


----------



## Gray Goose

RonC said:


> I just want to point out that if you build the Layens frames as given on HH with the top bars touching there's nothing that prevents you from feeding your bees in the Winter. I just pop 2 frames apart above the cluster so there is an opening that the bees can get up and feed. I like the design because it helps hold the heat down in the hive while I am peeking in to water my bees this winter.


If you pull the frames apart to feed then won't the heat come up thru the hole thus created?

GG


----------



## RonC

Gray Goose said:


> If you pull the frames apart to feed then won't the heat come up thru the hole thus created?
> 
> GG


It is a narrow slit a bee wide and as long as the top of the frame. I have a fondant patty covering part of the slit and an ice cream bucket lid covering another part of the slit so very little is actually open. The ice cream bucket lid is where I have a damp sponge. I also covered the top of the frames with a sheet of 6 mil plastic because I am looking to see if condensation will form on the plastic. I am seeing none and the bees seem to be working the sponges in the little space that the plastic forms around the sponge.


----------



## crofter

If you anticipate putting honey supers above the Layens frames to get extractable honey, then Langstroth style frames would be a plus. It is easy to blanket them all off or individually with Reflectix or similar covering and that can have holes for feeding by different methods. Do some googling of layens hives in commercial honey production such as in Spain and France and you will see more open top frame tops and auxilliary covering for wintering.

You can then use standard 10 frame Lang honey supers with frames running lengthwise above the Layens frames. At least that is what I will be doing with the Layens frame hives I am building.


----------



## RonC

Gray Goose said:


> So its been a month
> any one know what *double transfusion* raised queens are?
> 
> GG
> 
> GG


My guess and this is only a guess but some queen producers will graft a larva into a cup and then put the frame of cups into a cell builder and then about a day or two later come along and pull the first larvae out and graft in a new larva. It has to do with getting well fed larvae as there will be a nice bed of royal jelly. The argument against this practice is that the composition of the royal jelly may change between day 1 and day 3 and you might be putting a larva into the wrong kind of food. Just humans trying to outsmart the bees to get better queens. I only know about this because I am studying queen rearing as I want to learn to produce my own queens this next season and I ran across this the other night.


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## little_john

Over the last few days I've been reading about Layens Hives and their frames (seeing as that's what I'm going to be working with this coming year), by two of France's leading apiculturists of their day: Hommel and Clement. Just in case these might be of general interest or relevance to this thread, here are a couple of quotes:


> _*The frames must be 38 millimeters apart from center to center; the space between the upper crosspieces of the frames must be 12 to 13 millimeters*; between the bottom of the hive and the lower crosspiece 15 millimeters; between the wall of the hive and the vertical upright 7.5. A movable frame consists of two vertical slats, a lower horizontal and an upper one, called the [top-bar]; the latter protrudes a little on each side, and the frame, resting by these extensions, on a rebate of the wall, is suspended in the hive, entirely free on all sides. We almost always add a reinforcing crosspiece under the [top-bar]. _
> [ the original text is French, and there's no satisfactory equivalent for "port-rayon", literally, 'comb-carrier' - so, I've substituted 'top-bar' instead - LJ ]
> *Hommel, L'apiculture par les Methodes Simples (Beekeeping by Simple Methods), 1898, p.95*





> 3. Hive entrance and cover.
> The entrance to the hive should be wide so that the bees can flow easily when they enter and leave at the same time in large numbers; but its height must not exceed m,009, in order to stop the passage of harmful animals, such as butterflies (sphinx), mouse, etc.
> This entrance can be furnished with a sliding door allowing it to be shortened as needed. A serrated zinc blade is also sometimes fitted to it, a sort of comb or rake which between each tooth only allows the passage of a single bee. We can even achieve the desired result by means of a somewhat thick block of wood which is placed in front of this entrance so as to conceal it over a greater or lesser extent. When the bees, returning from the fields, collect at the entrance of the hive, it is because this entrance is too small: it must be enlarged. When it is too large, it could, at certain times, be the cause of cooling within the hive: it must be reduced.
> Above the frames leave a free space of m.01 to m.02 surmounted by a frame; it is covered with a canvas cover, onto which one can place scraps of carpet or boxes filled with sawdust or any other insulating substance, straw, ball oats, etc. The goal is to prevent any loss of heat during cool nights, without raising the temperature of the hive during hot summer days.
> *We often use for this purpose oilcloth, which has the property of condensing the water on its surface and totally intercepting the passage of air; it retains the humidity necessary for the bees and allows the entrance of the hive to be left wide open for ventilation (0m,15 to 0m,25) With wool blankets, for example, the opening must often be reduced by 0m,03 to 0m,05 to avoid too strong an air current inside which would cool the hive.
> Modern Beekeeping, 9th Ed, Professor A.L.Clement, 1907*.


Clement also discusses the problem which emerged in the immediate post-Langstroth period, when every French beekeeper and his dog invented a new frame size and shape (not unlike the US). A meeting of The Congress of Bee Societies of France was held in 1891, which 'approved' the use of just 3 frames: these were a slightly shortened version of the portrait-shaped Layens frame, measuring 40 cm. by 30 cm. (15 3/4" x 11 3/4"); a landscape-shaped version having exactly the same measurements; and a square frame measuring 35 cm. each side. (13 3/4" x 13 3/4") - which just happens to be the exact frame length which Langstroth had later advocated to Amos Root (but to no avail). Sheer coincidence, I'm sure.
LJ


----------



## GregB

RonC said:


> I just want to point out that if you build the Layens frames as given on HH with the top bars touching there's nothing that prevents you from feeding your bees in the Winter. I just pop 2 frames apart above the cluster so there is an opening that the bees can get up and feed.


So, let's picture this.
Say we have a cluster that occupies 5 seams.

Say you crack the frames at the seam #3 (for example) and letting the bees from this seam #3 to access the feed above the frames.

What happens to the bees in the seams #1 and #5?
Do you think the bees from #1 and #5 freely access the same feeding hole?

Actually, the chances are pretty high your bees in #1 and #5 seems will starve and drop off.
The seams #2 and #4 are also at risk.

Consider that MN is generally colder than WI (which is cold enough).
So let me state here that my bees can not easily cross the combs willy-nilly at will when it is consistently sub-freezing cold for weeks and weeks.

For effective feeding above frames in cold climate - ALL seams need access to the above frame volume, NOT just a single seam.


----------



## ursa_minor

Your view Greg gives me pause for thought. Last winter I made a solid candy board with 3" wide styrofoam edges that when placed on the frames covered the last two seams of bees on either side of the cluster. I placed it right on the frames with no shims underneath believing that the bees in each seam would just access it from the bottom. This hive died in the winter and when I looked at the frames as I dismantled it I notices that although some bees had made it into the sugar, and there were lots of stores at the opposite end of the hive, I had a large dead cluster of bees right under one side of styrofoam, unable to move up and unable to move over the top once they were in the upper most part of the frames, virtually no where to move in the last cold snap. 

Those IMO could very well have starved, it was early March and they had made it thru the worst of the winter. The rest I assume were eaten by the shrews I had in the hive or got too cold as their cluster was not large and they got separated from half of the bees who remained unable to cross into the sugar feed.


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## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> I had a large dead cluster of bees right under one side of styrofoam, unable to move up and unable to move over the top once they were in the upper most part of the frames, virtually no where to move in the last cold snap.


Pretty much a classic case.

Beeks from the southern regions often don't have this issue and don't quiet get the idea of the "stuck bees".
Us up North - the "stuck bees" issue is very much a staple issue.
Yep, the healthy and strong bees will easily die in a hive full of honey - so, don't let them get get stuck.

Giving the bees access from every seam to the above top bar space is a life saver.


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## crofter

I have seen it suggested, especially if using plastic foundation, that putting a one inch or so dia. hole just above center of each frame gives the bees a communication passage so they dont get stranded. Where they draw their own comb there is almost always passages left here and there. This fellow recommends it here in northern ontario. More than a few hours of good info on his Youtube. 



https://www.youtube.com/c/ScottHendriks/videos


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## GregB

crofter said:


> I have seen it suggested, especially if using plastic foundation, that putting a one inch or so dia. hole just above center of each frame gives the bees a communication passage so they dont get stranded..


With my "student's" plastic frames we did this (picture).
Works great - four 1/2" holes near the top bar of every plastic frame.
Really pleased how it worked out.
If I am to use any plastic (never know what comes) - these holes are a must.


----------



## crofter

GregB said:


> With my "student's" plastic frames we did this (picture).
> Works great - four 1/2" holes near the top bar of every plastic frame.
> Really pleased how it worked out.
> If I am to use any plastic (never know what comes) - these holes are a must.
> 
> View attachment 67164


Greg, my thought is that by the time they get that high they are almost over the top anyway. They might benefit from earlier access to "greener fields" in their winter climb.

I had not thought about multiple smaller holes; that might have benifits over fewer and larger; still, I would put them a bit lower on the frame.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> Greg, my thought is that by the time they get that high they are almost over the top anyway. They might benefit from earlier access to "greener fields" in their winter climb.
> 
> I had not thought about multiple smaller holes; that might have benifits over fewer and larger; still, I would put them a bit lower on the frame.


With my student we still have the typical dry sugar pancake laying on top of the sticks - should be no issue with cross-frame traffic over the top bars.
But remember - with me the dry feed goes on at the XMas time.
Until then we may or may not have cross-frame crossings above the top bars available - just never know.

So should the bees get that high before I show up with the life saving pancakes/cross-bar-sticks, they have those designed in cross-traffic holes available at any time.
I like the holes drilled up through the plastic even for any season (say smallish splits or nucs in cool weather).
Looking how the bees kept those holes actively used (should take a picture!!!) - those holes in the plastic are really beneficial and bees like them.

Why the manufactures don't just stamp the cross-frame holes at the factory is beyond me - so obviously useful and easy to make, why NOT to make them up front.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> I had not thought about multiple smaller holes; that might have benifits over fewer and larger; still, I would put them a bit lower on the frame.


But regardless, Frank, even IF to put the holes in mid-frame - multiple holes are the way to go.
When cold and bees are barely moving at all, moving a half-frame distance this way or that way is a looooong way to move.

Might as well have more holes as there is absolutely nothing to loose with them (frame strength is barely compromised at all) but there is everything to gain.
One even can drill the hole rows diagonally with one punctured right in the center of it - heck, be creative.


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## RonC

GregB Your comments up at Message #76 make sense. That must be why I've been procrastinating on nailing up frames for this next season. I'll buzz this next batch of topbars through the router table before I assemble the frames.


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## Mikro

Absinthe said:


> I have just finished "Smile" and working my way "Horizontal..." and I have read or listened to every thing I can find by Dr. Leo. Here is my take on what he is doing with his Layens design.
> Not only is his focus on horizontal, but also on completely natural, or "treatment free" if you will, though I don't think he uses that term. So as far as feeding is concerned, he is probably against it, as least as far as sugar is concerned. The plans that he puts out for building your own stuff are not only based on the Layens dimensions, but his aim and focus in insulation concerns heat loss from the top. So having the frames sealed at the top with propolis would be just fine, as he is not really interested in seeing the inside of the brood nest except in spring inspection. As for Fall inspection, he is not really all that concerned with the broodnest, and merely wants to remove excess stores and close up the size of the nest. Remember, the goal is that you only go into the hive 2 times a year. He is not taking mite counts and doing sugar or ether rolls, or feeding sugar syrup or even actually doing much frame manipulation through out the year. It is a very laissez faire method of beekeeping.
> 
> The other thing I see, as a woodworker, is that his designs, especially for making frames are way far on the simple side. And as such the design makes for a much easier pieces to assemble.
> 
> The other side of this, both with Lazutin (may he rest in peace) and I am guessing Dr Leo is the focus on the local feral bee population. Lazutin's being the "European Dark Bee" and I have no idea what Dr Leo is keeping in the Ozarks, because bees are not native to USA, so whatever has escaped over the years and feralized and evolved to cope with the existing problems in Ozark, MO. But much of the philosophy involves these bees that know how to live and build nests in the wild for their respective environments. So the "natural" approach would be to provide them with a nesting environment that resembles a tree, and let them make all the decisions about how to build their nest. When they have abundance and fill frames outside of that area, you can take them away, otherwise, just leave them alone. That is the message I take away from him and his books. (not that he has written, or translated but of which he is an "editor").
> 
> Does this make any sense as an answer?


Before Bees came to the USA, what did the pollination here? A bit confused on the Keeping Bees with a smile book. The hive in page 301 is similar but different the the Layens Insulated hive on horizontalhive website.


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## Mikro

ursa_minor said:


> I am a very new beekeeper, in fact, I pick them up this Saturday.
> 
> I built the layens frames, two hives and two swarm traps per Dr. Leo's specs. I lucked out though, I made the hives extra deep thinking that I would put in a raised floor and styrofoam insulation underneath. This fact saved me some adjustments when I realized that deeper frames would be needed for our cold northern winters.
> 
> I have since used a router and cut some of the top bar edges away so that there is a pass thru like the Langstroth frames. (as per GregV's suggestion, thanks again Greg.) And I am using both a cover cloth of canvas and cover boards of 1x4. The boards are so that I can place a styrofoam sheet right above the bees both summer and winter.
> 
> I started following Dr. Leo's methods and although I am certain they will not work up here in the frozen north, he did one thing for me, he made beekeeping seem possible. He makes it look like anyone can do it. From there I found this site, and then all those Russian you tube videos that show beekeeping in a climate more akin to mine.
> 
> I don't want to be a lazy beekeeper but I don't want to micro manage them either. Those Russian keepers have a method that, like Dr. Leo, makes a new beekeeper believe it is possible. Besides, they are great veiwing.


How has your hives worked out in the North?


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## Mikro

GregB said:


> I read a free PDF copy of this book (it freely available if one reads in Russian).
> It is too bad that the Author passed in such a young age (under 50) - just clarifying he is not longer with us to say anything in this regard.
> 
> You have good comments.
> 
> I will say this about the "lazy beekeeping" - it is largely contingent upon 1)sufficiently locally adapted and sufficiently mite-resistant bees and 2)sufficiently isolated location.
> The Author had both factors working for him and this must be made very clear.
> The idea of "lazy beekeeping" will not work in a typical suburban location somewhere in the US (been there, done that).
> Unfortunately, many inexperienced beeple will grab the book, get excited, buy the Layens hives and bees - and will promptly fail trying to do the "lazy beekeeping".
> While the book is a good read, some of the ideas are not applicable universally (which a reader may fail to understand).


Which books and videos would you recommend?


----------



## GregB

Mikro said:


> Which books and videos would you recommend?


Just review this - Natural Beekeeping | Horizontal Hives | Do-It-Yourself Plans
This is all you ever need - excellent starter.

BUT, this is with the understanding that those hives are NOT compatible to the conventional Langs.
Dr. Leo even has an entire article about converting Lang frames into the Layens:
Langstroth-to-Layens Hive Conversion | Free Plans | Natural Beekeeping (horizontalhive.com)

Completely unnecessary hassle (that conversion) where you simply *should be compatible* to the Langs by design - a no-brainer.
This is achieved by simply making the hive 2-3 inch deeper and using the Ukrainan frame sizing, not Layens frame sizing.

So while I will always point people to Dr. Leo designs, I will also say upfront that that sizing should be avoided and the Ukrainian sizing is to be used instead. For some strange reason Dr. Leo was not informed of the heritage Eastern European beekeeping - I can only guess.


----------



## ursa_minor

Mikro said:


> How has your hives worked out in the North?


Absolutely beautiful this year. Once I learned how to keep the mites in control and how to manage the wintering set up, things went swimmingly, albeit I still stressed about my methods. All the hives, as of yesterday, were thriving.

I will say that I do have one langstroth set up as well. I followed advice here on BS to condense the hive into a 7X7X7, DXDXM set up and it is doing just as well. 

The difference for me in the two hive styles is the management of them. Yes I do have to remove supers to check the bees in the summer, but I do not have to go down as far as the bottom box. Once the supers are off in the fall the ability to just pop the top, remove frames and check the brood pattern, stores, do varroa treatment, or spot the queen is a simple, non back breaking, procedure. Besides, I found that in the fall when some bees can get grumpy, not having to dismantle the two brood boxes makes for a calmer experience.


----------



## Gray Goose

Mikro said:


> Before Bees came to the USA, what did the pollination here? A bit confused on the Keeping Bees with a smile book. The hive in page 301 is similar but different the the Layens Insulated hive on horizontalhive website.


before bees came to the USA there was not much to pollinate.
bumble bees and other pollinators were able to pollinate.

GG


----------



## T_om

Mikro said:


> Before Bees came to the USA, what did the pollination here? A bit confused on the Keeping Bees with a smile book. The hive in page 301 is similar but different the the Layens Insulated hive on horizontalhive website.



People seem to think the honeybee is the only pollinator around. Not so.

There are over 4,000 (not a typo) species of bees NATIVE to the US.

Tom

PS: Just found a link: How many species of native bees are in the United States? | U.S. Geological Survey


----------



## GregB

T_om said:


> People seem to think the honeybee is the only pollinator around. Not so.


It is a well known issue and only those too lazy or too ignorant are not aware of the reality.

This is why some of us beeks here are cringing when people buy their first package so that they too can help *"saving the bees". *
People thank me for "saving the bees" and I no longer tell them that "No, I don't". Just moving along.

Just two-three weeks ago I was doing a talk at our local university and none of the 10-15 college students present had a clue of the honey bee being an imported species, etc.
Near total and complete ignorance is all over.


----------



## BEE J

Mikro said:


> Before Bees came to the USA, what did the pollination here? A bit confused on the Keeping Bees with a smile book. The hive in page 301 is similar but different the the Layens Insulated hive on horizontalhive website.


There're lot's of other pollinating insects in North America which could have done the pollination. Think of all the butterfly's. From historical findings we have reason to belive that honeybees are not "native" to America, but then again, who really knows? Why are you confused with the book? Dr. Leo doesn't have the same plans (as Fedor hives) on his website (although he has some similar ones), because those frames won't fit in a standard exctractor. He now recommends the layens. I built the hive described in appendix 7 and made the frames by connecting two deep Lang frames.


----------



## BEE J

ursa_minor said:


> Absolutely beautiful this year. Once I learned how to keep the mites in control and how to manage the wintering set up, things went swimmingly, albeit I still stressed about my methods. All the hives, as of yesterday, were thriving.
> 
> I will say that I do have one langstroth set up as well. I followed advice here on BS to condense the hive into a 7X7X7, DXDXM set up and it is doing just as well.
> 
> The difference for me in the two hive styles is the management of them. Yes I do have to remove supers to check the bees in the summer, but I do not have to go down as far as the bottom box. Once the supers are off in the fall the ability to just pop the top, remove frames and check the brood pattern, stores, do varroa treatment, or spot the queen is a simple, non back breaking, procedure. Besides, I found that in the fall when some bees can get grumpy, not having to dismantle the two brood boxes makes for a calmer experience.


You have Layen's hives?


----------



## BEE J

Gray Goose said:


> before bees came to the USA there was not much to pollinate.
> bumble bees and other pollinators were able to pollinate.
> 
> GG


Can you explain, please?


----------



## BEE J

T_om said:


> People seem to think the honeybee is the only pollinator around. Not so.
> 
> There are over 4,000 (not a typo) species of bees NATIVE to the US.
> 
> Tom
> 
> PS: Just found a link: How many species of native bees are in the United States? | U.S. Geological Survey


Absolutely! Good point!


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> Just two-three weeks ago I was doing a talk at our local university and none of the 10-15 college students present had a clue of the honey bee being an imported species, etc.


I didn't know you did speaking.


----------



## ursa_minor

BEE J said:


> You have Layen's hives?


No, Ukrainian hives, similar but much better.


----------



## BEE J

ursa_minor said:


> No, Ukrainian hives, similar but much better.


I've heard of them but haven't really done any research on them. I don't know about you, but it seems like there're so many types of cool hives. And I'm the kind of guy that just wants to do everything. It's good to stay focused though.


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## GregB

BEE J said:


> I've heard of them but haven't really done any research on them.


BeeJ - the Ukrainian frame is nothing but a deeper Layens frame variation.

Here @bjorn is making a variation of the frame reusing his extra Lang frames - one way we have been hacking around, reusing the Lang frames.

Bjorn's project is a great reference for everyone, IMO.
Layens, Lazutin and Double Deep Lang... oh my | Page 12 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> BeeJ - the Ukrainian frame is nothing but a deeper Layens frame variation.
> 
> Here @bjorn is making a variation of the frame reusing his extra Lang frames - one way we have been hacking around, reusing the Lang frames.
> 
> Bjorn's project is a great reference for everyone, IMO.
> Layens, Lazutin and Double Deep Lang... oh my | Page 12 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


Thanks for clarifying me, Greg. He's doing a good job .


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## Gray Goose

BEE J said:


> Can you explain, please?


when the Pilgrims got off the Mayflower, there was not 1 Acre of "crops" as we understand them today.
red clover and many other crops we also brought here.
fields plowed the crops planted.
fast forward 250 years we now have 

The sum of these four components results in a projected total crop acreage for 2021 of *342.4 million acres*, only 0.2 million acres more than the total for 2020.Jun 10, 2021 

so the pollination needs have grown with the crops planted .

GG


----------



## T_om

Gray Goose said:


> when the Pilgrims got off the Mayflower, there was not 1 Acre of "crops" as we understand them today.


Oh my, There were no crops planted by Europeans, true... but native Indian tribes had been planting crops for millennia. And the 4000 species of bees native to the Americas didn't just pop in with the Pilgrims. 



> so the pollination needs have grown with the crops planted .


Quite true. However an old worn out saying goes "nature abhors a vacuum". But it is (mostly) true. Just as when prey animals thrive, predator populations go up, I would imagine the native bee population now compared to the Pilgrims day has grown exponentially.

Ah well, I am not keeping bees to either "save" them nor am I interested in carting truckloads to farmer's fields to help them get a few more almonds per acre. I don't even like almonds. 

I do like honey, and have since I was a kid. A couple of hives can supply my wife and friends for a LONG time.

And to keep it applicable to the thread title, my top bar hives have touching bars. 

Tom


----------



## BEE J

Gray Goose said:


> when the Pilgrims got off the Mayflower, there was not 1 Acre of "crops" as we understand them today.
> red clover and many other crops we also brought here.
> fields plowed the crops planted.
> fast forward 250 years we now have
> 
> The sum of these four components results in a projected total crop acreage for 2021 of *342.4 million acres*, only 0.2 million acres more than the total for 2020.Jun 10, 2021
> 
> so the pollination needs have grown with the crops planted .


I guess that make sense. We can't say for sure that some honeybees weren't already hear in America, but I have not heard anything about it. So that means if honeybees were brought over by the settlers, they have now found their place and balance in America. It's amazing how creatures like these have the genetic complexity to be able to adapt to new climates. There was probably lots of plants 250 years ago too but we have brought over a lot more new ones, and planted 1000's of more acres of crops, than the Indians had (I don't know for sure).   

This is an interesting topic!


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## GregB

T_om said:


> And to keep it applicable to the thread title, *my top bar hives have touching bars.*


You can get away with just about anything in Florida.

However, what appears unessential minutia in tropics can and often will kill bees in cold climates.


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## BEE J

T_om said:


> Oh my, There were no crops planted by Europeans, true... but native Indian tribes had been planting crops for millennia. And the 4000 species of bees native to the Americas didn't just pop in with the Pilgrims.


We'll that's true. I do belive the Indians may have done some of the "guerilla gardening" technique too! So it may have not seemed like much crops but they could have been hidden in the forest. I really am not a historian, though, so I'm not sure of any of this.


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## BEE J

GregB said:


> You can get away with just about anything in Florida.
> 
> However, what appears unessential minutia in tropics can and often will kill bees in cold climates.


Why would touching top bars kill bees in colder climates?


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## GregB

BEE J said:


> Why would touching top bars kill bees in colder climates?


See, you already missed this point (although referenced more than once).

Because touching bars obstruct effective emergency feeding of the bees *in cold conditions.*

But sure - the "natural" gurus never feed bees...
Heard that before.


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## BEE J

GregB said:


> But sure - the "natural" gurus never feed bees...
> Heard that before.


Fedor Lazutin may give them some honey, but he doesn't want to keep breeding colonies that can't winter correctly.


GregB said:


> See, you already missed this point (although referenced more than once).


Sorry I'm not that sharp of a guy😄.


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## GregB

BEE J said:


> Fedor Lazutin may give them some honey, but he doesn't want to keep breeding colonies that can't winter correctly.


Good for him he did not feed (though the guy is now dead - no longer cares).

But he did not live in the US but rather in the Russian country side where the migratory beekeeping does not exist (meaning you can actually *breed *the darn bees).

And so yes - all those meaningless talks because of the giant differences in the local context invalidate many (or most?) points.
Conveniently omitted by many "gurus" though - nothing new.


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## BEE J

GregB said:


> Good for him he did not feed (though the guy is now dead - no longer cares).


I did hear he passed away due to a brain tumor.   How sad.



GregB said:


> And so yes - all those meaningless talks because of the giant differences in the local context invalidate many (or most?) points.


I think a bit of the book wasn't too relevant to me in my climate, but the principles were great! That's what so great about Beesource I can get hundreds of answers, and find others with experience in my local climate! We can take Fedor's philosophy and principales of natural beekeeping and apply them in are local climate!


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## BEE J

I think I'm starting to move away from the title of the thread. IMO go touching top bar and see how it goes!!!


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## ursa_minor

BEE J said:


> IMO go touching top bar and see how it goes!!!


You could, or IMO find out if your area is too cold and you might have to feed late winter. If you do it is a PITA to fix and router those top bars so bees can pass freely. If you only leave a few drilled holes for upper feeding, as I have seen some beekeepers do, they do not create easy access, and a cluster farther away can starve in cold weather.


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## BEE J

May


ursa_minor said:


> You could, or IMO find out if your area is too cold and you might have to feed late winter. If you do it is a PITA to fix and router those top bars so bees can pass freely. If you only leave a few drilled holes for upper feeding, as I have seen some beekeepers do, they do not create easy access, and a cluster farther away can starve in cold weather.


Maybe try a combo of both. My lazutin hive is supposed to have touching top bars, but I used deep langs instead. I still don't understand what you mean by the bees starving, because the roof is closed.  

Cheers, BEEJ


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## Gray Goose

BEE J said:


> May
> 
> Maybe try a combo of both. My lazutin hive is supposed to have touching top bars, but I used deep langs instead. I still don't understand what you mean by the bees starving, because the roof is closed.
> 
> Cheers, BEEJ


BeeJ
If the top bars "touch" then any food left on the top bars, to keep the bees from starving cannot be reached by the bees that are hungry.
this spring was one of those where in the northern tier of states some spring feed on some hives was needed to prevent starvation.
with top bars with gaps, the sugar brick or mountain camp , as well pollen patties is an easy go with a feeding rim or empty box.

so each frame type has features you can use if needed.

good luck picking what will work for you.

GG


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## BEE J

Gray Goose said:


> BeeJ
> If the top bars "touch" then any food left on the top bars, to keep the bees from starving cannot be reached by the bees that are hungry.
> this spring was one of those where in the northern tier of states some spring feed on some hives was needed to prevent starvation.
> with top bars with gaps, the sugar brick or mountain camp , as well pollen patties is an easy go with a feeding rim or empty box.
> 
> so each frame type has features you can use if needed.
> 
> good luck picking what will work for you.
> 
> GG


Now I get it! You mean putting food on top of the frames. I was confused why there would be a source of food up there!


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## ursa_minor

I also like the canvas cover better. Sure the bees don't greet you and the touching top bars allow you to remove only the side of the hive you wish to inspect. With the cloth cover you can gently pull it back and observe the bees, how far they have built out etc. without having to remove a single frame. You can also treat with OA dribble, icing sugar (if that is your preference), hang a mite strip, thymol wafers, or formic pro without removing frames. Just my preference, others may find reasons to keep them touching. 

"Each to his own", as my mother would tell me. But then she also had the weird expression when someone was stubborn, "you can't tell a Heinz pickle nothin."


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## BEE J

ursa_minor said:


> I also like the canvas cover better. Sure the bees don't greet you and the touching top bars allow you to remove only the side of the hive you wish to inspect. With the cloth cover you can gently pull it back and observe the bees, how far they have built out etc. without having to remove a single frame. You can also treat with OA dribble, icing sugar (if that is your preference), hang a mite strip, thymol wafers, or formic pro without removing frames. Just my preference, others may find reasons to keep them touching.


That's what I was thinking! I might cut up an old tarp or something.


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## keithtex

I think Dr Leo is giving a range of ideas to beekeepers and or potential beekeepers as to how things could be done - otherways to standard Langstroth commercial type systems and methodologies. Along with ideas that the horizontal Hive be it Layens/Lazutin based, deep frames and insulation being the key points, are likely to generate and maintain stronger colonies which may well resist pest and disease agencies better than Langstroth based colonies, with or without modern chemical/biological agents. Important steps in getting this message out to those who may be interested. It is clear from hive stats that the number of colonies in USA is declining despite modern techniques and the wealth of biological chemical knowledge we have at our disposal. Dr. leo is encouraging us taking a step backward and put bee welfare first and honey "production" second (as a first step) to resolve some of our issues. I think we can thank him for that and hell, he has to make a living too doesn't he? So we can't knock him too hard for "selling" his thoughts and the ideas of others. He credits the works of Layens and Lazutin et al quite heavily IMHO.


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## ursa_minor

keithtex said:


> I think Dr Leo is giving a range of ideas to beekeepers and or potential beekeepers as to how things could be done -


For sure, he is the reason I first found the Layens style of hive and he is the reason I keep bees today in more the Eastern European style, with a Canadian twist on wintering. His message on keeping bees for enjoyment with the honey as a bonus was key to my choosing the horizontal hive configuration.

Without him for a starting point I would have given up in the first season. Manipulating those Lang boxes, be they 8 or 10 frame, deep or medium, to check or treat is not something I enjoy or wish to repeat.


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## GregB

keithtex said:


> It is clear from hive stats that the *number of colonies in USA is declining*


It is surely NOT clear at all.

To clarify - this is a myth propagated by ignorant media.

I wish the # of colonies around me was smaller - it isn't.
Part of the problem where I cannot keep the bees chemical-free - too many bees around (continuously imported bees, to be sure).

Population of *commercially managed* honeybees is not really declining; not at all. It is stable at the least.


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## GregB

keithtex said:


> I think we can thank him for that and hell, he has to make a living too doesn't he? So we can't knock him too hard for "selling" his thoughts and the ideas of others. He credits the works of Layens and Lazutin et al quite heavily IMHO.


While this is true - what is also true - he (by design or by his own ignorance) totally omits the reality of modern horizontal beekeeping.

Especially curious because IF you are from Russia/Ukraine region and kind of know about beekeeping - you should know this by default.

So, IF you talk about it - then might as well be forthcoming and tell like it is - traditional horizontal beekeeping is very common and wide-spread and is not limited to Layens/Lazutin frames (the Lazutin is actually just a fringe case and hardly anyone is even using it).

In fact, Dadant/Ukrainian/Polish horizontal designs are, by far, much more common and numerous.

In reality, the horizontal hive beekeeping has been a staple in Eastern Europe for a very long time and is rather a common practice. It never went away and is rather very popular as we speak.

One common usage case for the long hives - by the weekend beekeepers. Of course, older people are another common case for the horizontal hives.

Nothing revolutionary in this - except if you are in North America and don't know much of anything outside of conventional, commercial Langstroth equipment sold by Walmart and the like sources.

Fortunately, now days one can easily look up the information directly and see for themselves what is really going on.


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## GregB

GregB said:


> Fortunately, now days one can easily look up the information directly and see for themselves what is really going on.


Quickly slapped together a list of direct Youtube sources on the subject.
I don't remember if I have done this already or not - but might as well.
Those willing can see tons of useful nuances about how this is actually done.

Assorted Youtube channels about traditional horizontal hive beekeeping | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


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## ursa_minor

GregB said:


> Quickly slapped together a list of direct Youtube sources on the subject.
> I don't remember if I have done this already or not - but might as well.
> Those willing can see tons of useful nuances about how this is actually done.


I am following the one in the Urals so I had a question for you GregB, what area and climate conditions is this man beekeeping in?

I know you posted it once before but I cannot call it up and when I looked up the winter temps. in the Urals I got a wide variety depending on where you were. I like his methods and intend to try it on one deep hive this winter but I am uncertain how cold it gets where he is so I can adjust accordingly.


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## crofter

From the vids that I looked at the wintering system is to reduce the winter colony to 6 or 7 frames and then wrap that bundle of frames in internal insulation and vapor control film. The stores are concentrated on the occupied frames that are mostly capped stores. Not much chance of the cluster getting stranded away from stores. Certainly a more compact setup than than a double or triple Langstroth hive. I think it lends itself to much more efficient way to winter a colony. I doubt it is as efficient though for mass honey production. The big boys that are producing hundreds of tons are not big on the horizontal hives.


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## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> *I am following the one in the Urals so I had a question for you GregB, what area and climate conditions is this man beekeeping in?*
> 
> I know you posted it once before but I cannot call it up and when I looked up the winter temps. in the Urals I got a wide variety depending on where you were. I like his methods and intend to try it on one deep hive this winter but I am uncertain how cold it gets where he is so I can adjust accordingly.



He lives in this town - per his YT channel info.
Volchansk - Wikipedia

Volchansk Climate, Weather By Month, Average Temperature (Russia) - Weather Spark


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## GregB

crofter said:


> *I doubt it is as efficient though for mass honey production*. The big boys that are producing hundreds of tons are not big on the horizontal hives.


Are you sure?

(534) Жесть❗ Улей забит мёдом❗🍯 - YouTube

The real issue is - mobility and equipment storage - that make this system a poor fit for commercial operation. But that we know about.


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## GregB

GregB said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> (534) Жесть❗ Улей забит мёдом❗🍯 - YouTube
> 
> The real issue is - mobility and equipment storage.
> But that we know about.


You know the trick?
I do know - but I failed to make one this year (no time).
*Multi-frame queen isolator (cage).*
This is horizontal version of the *queen excluder* used by vertical hives.
4-frame is a good size (for the Dadant frame).

This is how you stuff the long hive with the honey up to your ears.

I spoke about it too - multi-frame cage - not a new subject.
Without such queen cage, they keep pumping the brood (at the expense of the honey yield) while separating the honey from brood can be problematic. Exactly what observe yet again this year.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> I doubt it is as efficient though for mass honey production. The big boys that are producing hundreds of tons are not big on the horizontal hives.


Another one for you.
But - importantly - here we have a two separated brood-nests (two queens).
Some monster.
(534) Отбор мёда из кассетного лежака для двухсемейного содержания пчёл - YouTube

And yet again - totally unfit for commercial (including mobile) beekeeping.
Of course, they don't need this monstrosity.

Not much honey, though?
Kidding me? 
Says - Взвесили откатанный мёд - до 75 кг. 
(Weighted harvested honey - up to 75 kg).


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## GregB

GregB said:


> Another one for you.
> But - importantly - here we have a two separated brood-nests (two queens).
> Some monster.
> (534) Отбор мёда из кассетного лежака для двухсемейного содержания пчёл - YouTube


He later came back and harvested yet another row of frames - additional to the initial 75 kilos.
Says - 100 kg total harvested from the two-nest hive.
(534) Кассетный лежак на стационаре с разнотравья дал 100 кг мёда, без ПОДСОЛНУХА! - YouTube


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## Kevinf

GregB said:


> Without such queen cage, they keep pumping the brood (at the expense of the honey yield) while separating the honey from brood can be problematic. Exactly what observe yet again this year.


And same here again.....


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## ursa_minor

I did hang a queen excluder vertically in one of my hives last summer. She did not cross, I assume because the frame right next to the brood frames and before the excluder was a honey frame. I am sure some queens could and would pass but this one did not and the frames were lovely honey filled frames, no brood.


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## GregB

Kevinf said:


> And same here again.....


BTW - in the video above (here it is again) - people in the comments discuss how they also tried the 4-frame queen cages (based upon the channel) - everyone had positive results - the channel owner himself and others also want to try 5-6 frame cages (some felt that 4 frame was a tad too small).

So yes - the cage is the rage (sounds like).

(534) Жесть❗ Улей забит мёдом❗🍯 - YouTube


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## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> I did hang a queen excluder vertically in one of my hives last summer. She did not cross, I assume because the frame right next to the brood frames and before the excluder was a honey frame. I am sure some queens could and would pass but this one did not and the frames were lovely honey filled frames, no brood.


I had no time and did not bother.
In my 20F rig, for example, the brood-nest was on at least 10 frames.
So now I have about 10 frames that are too light to winter on and yet too light to harvest them. 

I need to get the bees to empty these light frames and consolidate the honey - like I have nothing else to do. 
Well, that's what I got being an "expert".


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## GregB

Here two brood-chamber long hives are wintering.
This is Belarus.

Essentially uni-body/two-chamber hives.
A common upper box used for insulation/ventilation/(honey super in summer).

And the beekeeper's wife - to complete it all.

(534) Глуховская пчелопасека. Борьба с короновирусом 2022 год. Беларусь. - YouTube


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## ursa_minor

My bees have consolidated on the frames nicely, way better than last year when at this time they were actively chomping on sugar and gathered above the frames.

I checked yesterday and none are outside in the larger hive body, all are slightly below the top and between the frames not congregating on top. I have set it up just like the one in the Urals with no top insulation yet, but I did put a very light cotton cloth on top of the frames just as insurance to catch any upper condensation drips.


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## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> I am following the one in the Urals so I had a question for you GregB, what area and climate conditions is this man beekeeping in?


Actually, if you mean this channel (also from Urals) - I have not been able to locate this one. 
But should be similar to the one above. 
He keeps talking of regular -30C winter temps.

(535) КАНАЛА ХОББИ УРАЛЬЦА ТРЕЙЛЕР - YouTube


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## ursa_minor

Yup that is the one, so similar temps as Southern Ontario. We are a little colder than that yet by about 10 degrees sometimes for a few weeks a winter. I am debating on how to set up one hive with that in mind. The other two are going to be set up like last season.

So far the one I have chosen has 9 frames, only because up till the first week in Oct. the 8th and 9th frames still had some brood, so I just kept it. I did a combine in late August and this hive is packed to the top with bees.

So, I have 2.5 inch foam insulating followers on each side of the 9 frames, not all the way to the floor but about 4" up for air circulation, I have 2.5 inch rough lumber walls. I am going to cover the top of the frames with some sugar blocks, a plastic sheet that is 1" smaller than the top bar width on each side,(again ventilation), a wool blanket folded on top like the Ural guy does. Then am going to put my quilt box on top and put in the down pillow topped with a piece of styrofoam just like last season, but it is the sides I am wondering about. I am trying to do this similar to his set up in an effort to simplify my wintering configurations.

My conundrum is it is colder here so 1) do I put on some outer 2.5" rigid insulation on all four walls, 2) only the front and back because the 2.5 inch followers are on the sides, 3) or none at all and assume that my 2.5 inch walls are equal to his thin box at -30C. I will add there is no cracks the wind can get in, all the seams are filled with wood filler.

What to do?


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## crofter

In my deep vertical frame colonies I have roughly two inches poly fillers at the rear so will not insulate there. There is only the 2 wood on the ends and the front where the entrances are so they will ge 1 1/2" foam. The top insulation is the 3/4 homasote fiber board and 6 1/2" deep planer shaveings. Divider between two colonies is shared so no insulation there. I will leave the lower entrances open 1 by 8 inches each.


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## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> My conundrum is it is colder here so 1) do I put on some outer 2.5" rigid insulation on all four walls, *2) only the front and back because the 2.5 inch followers are on the sides,* 3) or none at all and assume that my 2.5 inch walls are equal to his thin box at -30C. I will add there is no cracks the wind can get in, all the seams are filled with wood filler.
> 
> What to do?


I tend to favor #2 (of course a *lighter *version of yours as my conditions are milder).

Why:

less work
sufficient
biggest bang for the effort

But given you are willing and able to do the work - additional insolation on the remote side of the air pockets maybe still incrementally beneficial (see #1).

-40C is nothing to sniff at AND the heat loss is not a linear function, AFAIK.
So, the difference between -20C, -30C and -40C - in terms if heat retention efforts by the bees is not linear (granted everything else is equal).


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## GregB

GregB said:


> I tend to favor #2 (of course a *lighter *version of yours as my conditions are milder).
> 
> Why:
> 
> less work
> sufficient
> biggest bang for the effort


I guess - I have many more hives than you do - and they are across 7 locations. It makes sense for me to be frugal as it all adds up.


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## crofter

Greg; my statement about the big boys favoring Langstroth system is speaking of operators like Ian Steppler that produce in the hundreds of tons. Man hours per unit of production and transportation issues.

Thanks for the ideas of limiting the queen to concentrate brood areas and better isolate stores. Next summer will be the first time I actually manage the deep horizontal frame colony. I have two wintering with frames the tall way but those frames were drawn and filled for the most part when they were horizontal in Lang boxes.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> Greg; my statement about the big boys favoring Langstroth system is speaking of operators like Ian Steppler that produce in the hundreds of tons. Man hours per unit of production and transportation issues.


Yes; and I understand that.

Long hives are good for the use-cases outlined already - they don't scale up well.

But for us, the invalids here - having 2-3 coffins in the back yard that produce 100-200 kgs of honey would be awesome - and it is totally doable as we see.

(My right rotator-cuff is really bugging me as I write this!! - next week off to see a physical therapy person. In general, I should not be lifting anything significant above my chest level).


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## crofter

GregB said:


> Yes; and I understand that.
> 
> Long hives are good for the use-cases outlined already - they don't scale up well.
> 
> But for us, the invalids here - having 2-3 coffins in the back yard that produce 100-200 kgs of honey would be awesome - and it is totally doable as we see.
> 
> (My right rotator-cuff is really bugging me as I write this!! - next week off to see a physical therapy person. In general, I should not be lifting anything significant above my chest level).


I have been putting off the inevitable for quite a while! Now I am starting to have difficulty getting the caps off the pain killer bottles! 
A slight exaggeration but not by much.


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## little_john

GregB said:


> (My right rotator-cuff is really bugging me as I write this!! - next week off to see a physical therapy person. In general, I should not be lifting anything significant above my chest level).


Supraspinatus impingement ? Very common, and equally very painful. Luckily there are several home exercises which alleviate the problem ... eventually. But - it'll take time - so have patience.
I found that understanding the root cause (explained to me by a physio) helped enormously.
Best of luck with those exercises ...
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> *Supraspinatus impingement ?* Very common, and equally very painful. Luckily there are several home exercises which alleviate the problem ... eventually. But - it'll take time - so have patience.
> I found that understanding the root cause (explained to me by a physio) helped enormously.
> Best of luck with those exercises ...
> LJ


Unsure yet LJ.

This will be the first time ever I will officially see a professional.
I lived with bad shoulders all my life (primarily the right one).
I knew I had to turn myself into the doctors sooner or later.
So here it goes - next Monday.

But with my age (which is still relatively minor) - I seem to no longer get away with just the Youtube-grade physical therapy.
The issue virtually never goes away, and I easily re-escalate it.
Ready to go and get the MRI done and have them study my shoulder and see what is *fundamentally *wrong with it.

I am afraid to lift the 6th (and the top most) box of my CVH hive - when it is heavy and even when not.
That is pushing the shoulder limit at that.
All for *ergonomic *beekeeping!


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## GregB

little_john said:


> Supraspinatus impingement ?


Well, I now have a mild case of arthritis - officially.
Osteoarthritis most probably.
The right shoulder.
My Dad had very similar issue with the same shoulder - must be the genetics.

Back to ergonomic beekeeping subjects.


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## Kevinf

ursa_minor said:


> I did hang a queen excluder vertically in one of my hives last summer. She did not cross, I assume because the frame right next to the brood frames and before the excluder was a honey frame. I am sure some queens could and would pass but this one did not and the frames were lovely honey filled frames, no brood.


This year I attempted to use a sold correx board as the separator for the brood and honey frames but it did not work as I had hoped. I should have made the board shorter than I did as the bees would generally not go around the larger, solid board to store nectar. Next year I will cut an actual queen excluder to size and see if that works better in providing the separation that I need. I do like the idea of including in the caged area a frame of capped stores as another barrier for the queen to limit any temptation to pass the excluder.


----------

