# Organic Honey is Certified?



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

This corresponds to what I had heard. And it makes
sense. With a foraging radius fairly large it is indeed
very hard to insure your bees aren't bringing in some
affected nectar/pollen source. 

Especially now that GMO alfalfa has been OK'd. Another
bone tossed to Monsanto. This will make certification
even harder.:ws


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Aren't GMO's organic.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

GMO's "organic?" That was a joke... right?! :scratch:


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Here's a recent and interesting article:
http://livingmaxwell.com/organic-honey-certified


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Thanks Omie, a very interesting read! This topic really can make ones head spin.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

What constitutes "organic" is now decided by our government. If you follow their rules, you can be certified "organic." But I don't necessarily agree with these rules nor do I believe the government really knows what really constitutes organic. I don't think I really know either. So our government decides for us.

Now I question who decides and what do they really know about beekeeping? What do they know about organic? 

In my paranoid, conspiratorial opinion, I think the government tried to make it impossible for anyone to legitimately use the term, "organic."

Enforcement is another slough of despond. So I show three years of records. Who can verify those details? Who keeps on eye on me after I'm certified?

I've totally lost faith in Washington, D.C.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

I have had many people ask me about organic honey,,I discuss with them all the previously posted material.....I agree with Grant....our government is trying to regulate something they know nothing about....I just sell honey....its easier


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

But don't you find that most people don't really want to know the whats and whys of almost any situation? I imagine you keep your explanation short?

"Is this honey organic?"
"Organic doesn't mean what it used to. This honey is produced to be pure and clean and ready for you to eat."
"Yes, but is it Raw?"
"Yes."

But that's another discussion. Let's get back to "PURE", as a Honey Standard.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

The Soap Pixie said:


> GMO's "organic?" That was a joke... right?! :scratch:


I guess, in my own cynical way, I'm poking fun at the concepts used here and like others think definitions and enforcement make for meaningless terminology. When I was a student organic meant carbon based. Lots of pesticides are carbon based. GMO crops are also carbon based. Plus, being a genetic engineer I think most people fear GMO's for the wrong reasons. Don't get me wrong, I personally think pesticide free sustainable agriculture is the way to go, but I am a bit leery of some of the arguments and terminology used.
As an example - I have people that ask if I heat my honey. I say yes, up to about 100F. Some people walk away even after you tell them that it is for a short time to make the honey flow better and besides the hive temp is nearly 100F. They then proceed to tell you that heating kills enzymes. By this point I let them walk away rather than get in an argument (if they have a hardened position). I want to ask specifically which enzyme they are worried about losing. I am certain that they are clueless. Then I would like to ask if that enzyme will ever get past our stomach acids and proteases. And by the way isn't our body temperature near 100F? But then I have to remind myself that people have been led to believe that they need my local honey for allergies and have no clue about that either. 
Likewise, I think the organic movement is mostly emotive but perhaps that is OK if it has a positive outcome. I think the problem with us human beings is that we tend to believe the information on the surface and are too busy and/or too lazy to ask nuanced questions. The surface picture usually turns out to be wrong or at least very incomplete with the messy underbelly being mostly a set of contradictions. If I am busy or lazy, I simply assume that we have a very incomplete picture and therefore am immune to the hyperbole. And on top of that, well meaning rules and regulations are usually ignored or manipulated down to the last dollar of profit. Like the cute little mom and pop labels on all that free range chicken. Its all great until you find out that the big mega chicken farm found a neat little marketing approach to sell their 59 day chickens where the barn door is left open and are therefore free range. Now the reality is that the mom and pop name is meant to convey something entirely different from the mega chicken farm. Free range implies that the chickens are running around outside eating natures best but the reality is that the chickens could theoretically leave the over crowded and diseased chicken coop and go through that open door, but the farmers know that the birds won't leave if they are acclimated to the indoors before the door is open. So what is free range and what is organic and what is raw? The only food that I have any confidence in comes from my garden and my hives. Since we are not a nation of moral people I will continue to be guarded.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Yes big gubermant.... 

This thread belongs in tailgater...


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> But that's another discussion. Let's get back to "PURE", as a Honey Standard.


Not being argumentative, I'd like to hear what you define as "Pure Honey". To me, "Pure Honey" simply means the honey is not mixed with anything else like corn syrup, sugar syrup- that it's 'all honey' in the container. Like if I saw a container labeled "Pure Olive Oil", I'd just assume it meant it was not a mix of olive oil, peanut oil, and other oils- that it was ALL olive oil in the bottle. _Isn't that what the law requires concerning labeling a product as 'Pure' anything?_ (or am I mistaken?) I wouldn't be thinking in terms of pesticides, preservatives, antibiotics, etc. "Pure Cane Sugar" cannot contain any beet sugar mixed in. Thus, as long as it contained _nothing but actual honey_, it could be labeled Pure Honey even if it had pesticide residues and medications in it (as long as they did not exceed health limit standards).
Am I mistaken about this?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nope. Not at all. Everything in a jar of Pure Honey is honey. Which, to my mind, is sufficient. But, I'm sure, that's just me.

Omie, We were arguing? I missed it, if we were.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

HVH

I don't think fearing GMO's due to the lack of safety testing is fearing them for the wrong reason. In fact, I think citizen concern over Pusztai's test results and the fact he was fired after he released the data showing the damaging affects GMO's had on rats is something to be extremely concerned about. As for government, on one hand people claim to be "anti government" or wish they'd spend less time meddling in our business yet they are ok with government meddling with our food. Thanks to government, Monsanto has been given the power to step all over the little people, but that is another topic altogether along with pesticide free agriculture. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

_"I think the problem with us human beings is that we tend to believe the information on the surface and are too busy and/or too lazy to ask nuanced questions."_

I absolutely agree! People spend too much time listening to then media tell them what is good and bad for them and no one really wants to know the facts, which, as far as hive products are concerned, puts beekeepers in a difficult situation.

I've only been at this a year but beekeeping, hives and honey is much like everything else when it comes to how you define its purity, it all depends on who you are asking. Organic is just the buzz word now. Although I agree organic is healthier, most people can't even identify why that is. Organic serves the livestock and the environment better than it serves the people IMO. Which isn't a bad thing, just an observation.

I don't trust the government and I question their development of an organic standard. but since I plan on selling honey some day I do get concerned over how the general population defines "organic" and "natural" and in my experience people interpret organic honey as being free of synthetic toxins which I personally believe is impossible in todays environment. People shouldn't be allowed to manipulate consumers with labeling but we don't know what we are manipulating if we don't know what people's interpretations are. 

Pure - Natural - Organic... all mean different things to me based on my knowledge but those three words signify important things to the general public. 

Most people don't even know bees get diseases and therefore, don't realize chemical treatments are used but if they did I am sure those three words would mean something different.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The Soap Pixie said:


> People spend too much time listening to the media tell them what is good and bad for them and no one really wants to know the facts, which, as far as hive products are concerned, puts beekeepers in a difficult situation.


 We all put our faith in someone's knowledge, whether that be "the Media" or Authors of bee books. I don't know very many people who learned everything they know about anything w/out relying on someone else telling them "the Facts". We're all in the same boat, as far as I can see. I see nothing wrong w/ bweing skeptical and questioning, but eventually you have to come down on one side of an issue or the other. Even if you come to it mostly on your own.

If you know who you are and know what you arfe doing, as a beekeeper and as a person, what is the "difficult situation"?


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

I agree that we all put our faith in other people's knowledge, I just don't necessarily agree that the media qualifies as knowledge and when I refer to media in this case I am talking about cable news. It puts beekeepers in a difficult situation the same way it is for those of us formulating and selling body products: at what point are we going to spend more time defending a product and less time selling it. I have talked to people who absolutely refuse to buy anymore honey after reports came out that honey was being imported, wasn't pure honey yet was relabeled and sold as such. What happens when enough people get upset about these reports and demand regulation. Then the government decides to regulate it in a way that isn't affordable to the hobby beekeeper. If you think it can't happen just look at what is happening to the body product industry right now. If you asked me 5 yrs ago, I would have said it couldn't happen either but it happened because consumers were tired of false labels, dishonest producers and lack of oversite.

Why it is difficult is because we as beekeepers can't even agree on what constitutes natural and pure so how do we educate the public and educate them to a point that they don't start questioning a product altogether like some people are now doing with honey.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

The Soap Pixie said:


> HVH
> 
> I don't think fearing GMO's due to the lack of safety testing is fearing them for the wrong reason. In fact, I think citizen concern over Pusztai's test results and the fact he was fired after he released the data showing the damaging affects GMO's had on rats is something to be extremely concerned about.
> 
> .


The rest of your post I generally agree with but I cannot draw any conclusions about Pusztai's paper "Effect of diets containing genetically modified potatoes expressing Galanthus nivalis lectin on rat small intestine" without reading it. I could register at the Lancet but make it a general rule not to register for anything that is supposed to be free. I have read the arguments on both sides which means it all boils down to the data. What I can say, is that on theoretical grounds most GMO's have altered protein expression being coded for by transduced foreign DNA that should not get past our digestive tract or at least into our blood stream. Proteins get broken down into peptides and then into amino acids which for all practical purposes are the same for GMO and non-GMO alike. It is very difficult to speculate how a transgenic protein could affect organ systems. Since we don't have infinite knowledge, anything is possible so I cannot say with certainty that GMO's don't pose a health risk, but I am currently skeptical about such claims. Before the foreign proteins are broken down, an immune response is possible but I'm not sure how that would equate to organ damage.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The Soap Pixie said:


> Why it is difficult is because we as beekeepers can't even agree on what constitutes natural and pure so how do we educate the public and educate them to a point that they don't start questioning a product altogether like some people are now doing with honey.


Perhaps our experiences are somewhat different, but not too much so.

When I get questions about "raw", or "organic", or "heated/unheated" I do my best to answer them. And then, if the consumer doesn't want to buy because of their own ideas, that's not something I give much thought to. On a case by case basis, what can I do about it?

I don't spend alot of time or energy buying into consumers misconceptions or paranoia. I also do not try to SELL them honey.

I also sell more honey each year, even when I raise my prices. When I raise my price, I sell more honey. The consumer thinks that if it costs more it must be better. That's what business and marketing experts tell me is the reason.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Perhaps we should simply state on the label:
"Our hives are not treated with pesticides or medications." --if that's true, of course.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

For your honey to be truly proven Organic, would it not have to be sent off to a lab and have a pesticide base line done on it??? As a member of Souix, my honey has to go through one of the most stringent labs in the nation. Because of this I have a pesticide base line that shows exactly what is in my honey as a possible contaminent. I have bought supers of comb in the past from other producers. Whatever has been in contact with that comb will show up in the honey and in the baseline. Even though I have an extremely low base line, I would never call my honey organic. RAW yes, unheated yes, organic no. TK


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Is that testing expensive? Does the analysis have to be for specific chemicals or pesticides in general?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Plus, being a genetic engineer I think most people fear GMO's for the wrong reasons.


I know why I fear them.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Omie,

I am all for that! I see no confusion there and it might even prompt a consumer who didn't know about bee diseases and treatments to do a little research and learn more about bees. I know before I was a beekeeper had I seen that on a label of honey I would have been interested in learning more.

Sqkcrk,

I hear ya  I guess I just have a few residual frustrations over being duped by labels in the past myself and so I stress this topic of organics and natural a bit too much. I am learning here from all of you though and hopefully can figure out where I solidly stand at some point.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> I don't trust the government and I question their development of an organic standard.


Standards are usually developed by industry. No "government" has the expertise to develop standards.



> I also do not try to SELL them honey.
> 
> I also sell more honey each year,


You are either actively trying to sell honey or you are not. It wouldn't seam as though you could do both.



> For your honey to be truly proven Organic


For me it is pretty simple. Everyone can call their honey Organic regardless of what they do. You can't label the honey certified organic unless it is certified by what ever organization that does the certification. We raise chickens so we can have organic eggs. We even sell a few but they are just not certified organic eggs. I can guarantee you they are better than super market certified eggs though.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Acebird said:


> For me it is pretty simple. Everyone can call their honey Organic regardless of what they do. You can't label the honey certified organic unless it is certified by what ever organization that does the certification. We raise chickens so we can have organic eggs. We even sell a few but they are just not certified organic eggs. I can guarantee you they are better than super market certified eggs though.


At least in NY state, i believe the law is that one cannot even label their produce for sale with the word 'organic' unless it is _certified_ organic.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Acebird,

Correct me if I am wrong as I am still trying to understand all of this and if you have resources it helps. Didn't the NOP draft the organic standard and isn't the NOP a government entity and doesn't the government ensure compliance? I understand that NOP consists of a group of people not government per say but the government did put the program together correct?

In Minnesota, as I understand, we cannot legally use the word organic on the label unless we are certified. 

I am not trying to speak for Sqkcrk, but I interpreted the point being made about selling as actually pushing a product. There are two types of sellers, those that offer a product for sale and those that "market" their product. Setting up shop and pushing that product by giving customers a lot of info on it and telling them why it is good is different than telling people you have have a product to sell and letting that product speak for itself.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Acebird,
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong as I am still trying to understand all of this and if you have resources it helps. Didn't the NOP draft the organic standard and isn't the NOP a government entity and doesn't the government ensure compliance? I understand that NOP consists of a group of people not government per say but the government did put the program together correct?


Government always consults the industry that it regulates when developing rules and guidelines.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3004446&acct=nopgeninfo



> Except for operations whose gross income from
> organic sales totals $5,000 or less, farm and processing
> operations that grow and process organic agricultural
> products must be certifi ed by USDA-accredited
> certifying agents.





> At least in NY state, i believe the law is that one cannot even label their produce for sale with the word 'organic' unless it is certified organic.


I find this hard to believe for honey because NY State doesn't even have a definition for what honey is. That is our first battle. If honey isn't defined how can you say it is not organic. If I put a label on my jars that reads "Honey that comes from organic sources" and I am a back yard beek how could someone or some entity dispute it unless they witnessed me dousing them with cems?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The Soap Pixie said:


> I am not trying to speak for Sqkcrk, but I interpreted the point being made about selling as actually pushing a product. There are two types of sellers, those that offer a product for sale and those that "market" their product. Setting up shop and pushing that product by giving customers a lot of info on it and telling them why it is good is different than telling people you have have a product to sell and letting that product speak for itself.


I'm glad to read that you are not trying to speak for me, because I want no one to ever think of me as a "pusher". But, maybe that's what you meant. Because I do what you said last, I market my honey. And, if anyone has any questions about my honey, my phoner number and address is right there on the Label.

Honey from the bees of Squeak Creek Apiaries is what it says on most Squeak Creek Honey Labels. Others say Natural North Country Honey from Squeak Creek Apiaries. On my van, it says, "Your Honey's Here!!".

For a year, I had two spots on NCPR. I forget what they said, except something about being a supporting member of NCPR for twenty years.

Tell people what they need to know and then be ready to answer whatever questions they may have.

Your label should tell your target customer what they need to know so they can buy what they want. Such as "Squeak Creek RAW Honey". For those who want unstrained and unheated honey. My outlets know what my labels mean or know to call me.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Sqkcrk,

Yes, that is what I meant. I interpreted your post as you saying you aren't pushing your product, you let the value of your product speak for itself and if someone had a question you are more than happy to answer  I am sorry if my post wasn't clear, I was trying to say that I thought you were distinguishing between types of selling and not that you were claiming to be a pushy seller. 

Acebird,

Than it is as I thought and I stand by my feelings on organic standards set by the government. The government is consulting with those in the body product industry right now to determine how to set a regulatory standard and I assure that they aren't always consulting with the right people nor do they always end up regulating the way the people.really want. Organic is no different and my fear about them setting legal standards for organic honey remain. There is already talk about the organic standard changing to accomodate GMO's, although that is another topic it just goes to the heart of what I am referring to.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That's what I thought you thought, but wanted to be sure.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> The government is consulting with those in the body product industry right now to determine how to set a regulatory standard and I assure that they aren't always consulting with the right people nor do they always end up regulating the way the people.really want.


"the people" Who are the people? If the government did what the people wanted them to do we would have to be all republicans or all democrats and even then there would be differences. If you are thinking the government is law makers then the government will do what money influences them to do. I don't see getting around that problem.

The consumer is the only thing that can influence what industry does over the long run. You know what you want. If the government waters down the definition of "Organic" then you will have to seek out "non tampered organic" as your standard. The chances are you will never get a government standard for "non tampered organic" because it will not be money driven. That doesn't mean you won't be able to get it.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

I happen to believe we are a country of mainly moderates, not republican or democrat, with that said I think we are on the same page...somewhat... but by your response think maybe you aren't comprehending where I am coming from or what I am referring to so we will have to disagree on this topic of government regulation being on the side of the people. My thumbs can't work my phone keyboard efficiently enough to attempt.to explain what I am trying to convey.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Mark, I really do not know what the baseline pesticide testing cost. It is part of the procedure to sell honey to Souix as a member or even as a non member. So after reading the thread, I think that organic honey would have to go to a lab and be certified as such. Much like Tupelo honey is certified as pure Tupelo honey. This is done believe or not by a Government lab. The plus is once the honey is Certified it will bring a huge premium. TK


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> but by your response think maybe you aren't comprehending where I am coming from or what I am referring to so we will have to disagree on this topic of government regulation being on the side of the people.


Maybe a little of both. When you use a phrase like "on the side of the people" you have to define who the people are. Some people are for regulation and some people are against regulation. All most all topics have two sides.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

I was referring to the people in the industry. By industry I mean body product, by people I mean the small business owners, by not being on their side I mean because we are the ones that suppoerted the EWG in the beginning but it turned into being all about politics and money and not about supporting the concerns of the industry or protecting he healh of the general population. Which goes back to my point about government and organics and even the possibility of the organic standard changing to support GMO's. As I said, I don' t think you can understand what I am referring to because instead of discussing the possibility that standards being set can sometimes hurt small business owners and how we, as beekeepers can come to a consensus on labeling so that consumers don't have to question what they are buying all the time, or even just discussing what should be an organic standard for honey you are focussing on small details in my post and those of others. IF 90% of readers are finding it difficult to understand what I am saying then I will cut out of the forum since I.certainly don't want to leave an impression of myself that is inaccurate but if it is just you, I'll admit I am exhausted trying to clarify every word I use in each post. 

I will make myself clear as I can on the points I was trying to discuss.
1. I think it would be nice if beekeepers cam to a consensus on what constitutes natural, pure, and organic. I think it would make labeling easier and it would be nice for the consumer because they'd know feom the start what it is they are getting and those beeks or "importers" who are dishonest would find.it harder to be so (not impossible but harder).

2. I do agree wih gov. regulation, just don't always agree with he way it is done. I often think government is over zealous and not always on the side of the " people" and yes, I mean the moderates in the world. I am sure gov is on someones side when they are pocketing money.

3. I buy organic for my family but I also believe there are 100's of organic farmers who due to the gov. regulation and the cost can't be certified. How does that benefit the small biz owner and the.people? By people, I mean those who want to buy organics.

If we can create organic honey, SUPER, if we can't, that is ok too. I would just hate to see people using the organic label, consumera finding out the honey isn't organic, being angry enough to effect some type of regulation that would hurt the small beekeeper as is happening in other areas of biz right now. Becuase big gov likes to come in to shut.people up. When you have a buch of whiney consumers and trust me, I am one them and we have a right to be whiney, the gov. oftentimes, not always, will jump into regulating without evaluating the whole picture and you can agree or disagree and dicuss examples if you like but if I have to explain what I mean, then I am on the wrong forum.

Sorry about the typos, I am using my phone to type and it has a mind of its own


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...just skimmed over this thread...a few thoughts:

1. If anyone is really interested in the current state of the proposed organic standards, here is a talk/discussion from about 1 year ago with 2 organic certifies at the organic conference in Arizona. I don't think anything has changed since this presentation. I don't really see the point in discussing it here, as folks seem more interested in talking about what their own ideas are about "what should be"...this is the baseline information to have a discussion (given that the label "organic" is regulated):
http://www.vimeo.com/10211570

2. Anyone that puts a label on a jar, has honey for sale on a shelf or table, or has product available to order online is "pushing" their product. For retailers, the most valuable thing in the world is shelf space...they know this is the best way to "push" a product.

3. How do folks feel about "pure honey" that is 5%-30% beet sugar? How do folks feel about better testing methods that can detect substances (like rice syrup) that are not detectable with the current standard tests? How about tests that can detect down to 2% adulteration rather than the current 5%? How much feed would you think should be allowable in honey and still call it "pure"?

deknow


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

deknow,

I thought that was the very point of discussion. Sharing our own ideas of why we think what we do and then hashing it out with one another, learning new ideas and thoughts and maybe coming to a consensus on the group of ideas :s

Thank you for the link!

Just wanted to add that I am watching the video now and it is exactly what I was looking for!!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

well, we could have a discussion about under what circumstances someone without a drivers license should be allowed to drive...but the discussion is moot, because there is a well regulated (and enforced) system for becoming licensed to drive, and regardless of what we think are reasonable reasons for driving without a license, it violates the law to do so.

in the case of "organic", one does not need to be certified if one is selling below a certain amount of product/year.....but even in this case, you are required to actually be following the organic standard.

but it's much more complicated..there is only a draft standard in the U.S. (but some states have their own standards, and some certifiers use other standards to certify organic operations), "livestock" standards appear to be in place and applied to bees, much of what exists legally is in direct conflict with other things that exist legally.

add to this that the entire usda organic program is about methods used, and not about lab tests and residue levels (although they do come into play, you cannot certify something as organic just because it tests clean, it has to be produced according to the standard).

fwiw, i'm all in favor of the "old skool" "organic movement"...but now, if you are going to talk about organic in relation to a product, you have to comply with the regulations. the regulations are not clear, and it is impossible to have a substantive discussion unless one is somewhat versed in what the regulations say and how they have been interpreted.

deknow


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

I understand. Your point makes good sense.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

The Soap Pixie said:


> 1. I think it would be nice if beekeepers cam to a consensus on what constitutes natural, pure, and organic. I think it would make labeling easier and it would be nice for the consumer because they'd know feom the start what it is they are getting and those beeks or "importers" who are dishonest would find.it harder to be so (not impossible but harder).


...this is the crux of the problem. everyone wants some kind of consensus...somehow this is supposed to be better than disagreement and contention. The truth, however, is that different kinds of operations have different interests. Imho, it is much better to recognize these differences than to pretend they don't exist.

The status quo is particularly worth noting....the NHB (made up of importers who trade on buying honey or honey-like-products that they can sell as honey) wants honey to be seen as a commodity...all things labeled "honey" are essentially identical. The smaller producer is making a quality product and doesn't want to be included in this "commodity" system..they want "beekeeper produced honey" to be seen as something different...while, at the same time, many (if not most) will buy in honey that they can't trace and don't test when demand is high or supply is low and sell it as their own (and deny they are doing so).

No one "in the industry" wants any talk of contaminated or adulterated honey...it sullies the reputation that honey enjoys as "the last pure food", and makes the consumer suspicious of all honey available.

What do you think "beekeepers" can agree upon? Aproximately 99% of the bees in the U.S. are run by 1% of the beekeepers....can we assume that 99% of the domestic honey comes from those same 1%?...probably pretty close to the truth. The larger producers are producing some of the worst honey out there (as I stated before, we found 30% beet sugar in $11/lb honey "from an organic farm"...this came from a large producer originally).

Truth is much more powerful than consensus. We should not be afraid to speak the truth and educate consumers.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...not speaking strictly of honey, what do you think you are getting when you buy something organic?

deknow


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Something that's over priced. Confusion.
At my local Trader Joe's :










Right next to this :










What message does this say?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> add to this that the entire usda organic program is about methods used, and not about lab tests and residue levels (although they do come into play, you cannot certify something as organic just because it tests clean, it has to be produced according to the standard).


I think you will find the very same truth in how the FDA operates. The formulas for pharmaceuticals is secretive and in most cases patented. Quality is controlled by methods and processes. Regulation is meant for all intents and purposes for the large corporate producers because they have the greatest impact. There is no way any regulatory body can keep tabs on all the small fries. They may be subject to the regulations but they will not be policed realistically.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

_this is the crux of the problem. everyone wants some kind of consensus...somehow this is supposed to be better than disagreement and contention. The truth, however, is that different kinds of operations have different interests. Imho, it is much better to recognize these differences than to pretend they don't exist._

Let me give you an example of what I am referring to:

If I have a customer that wants to buy my honey and she/he asks if my honey is natural and I say "yes, of course, it is *pure* honey straight from the hive. I haven't used any synthetic chemicals in my hive, I've only filtered the honey once." and then that same customer a month later goes to another beekeeper and asks the same question and that beekeeper says "sure, my honey is *pure*, but upon further discussion tells the customer he uses chemical treatments in the hive. 

Who is misrepresenting their product? Is anyone at fault for how the customer interprets this information? If there is no consensus amongst beekeepers... 

It may not have the importance that I believe it has. I'm still learning here and haven't really formed a solid opinion on what each term should mean. Of course if any standard is decided upon then legally that is what I go with. I'm just sharing thoughts. I agree with your statement about truth being more important than consensus but I think we debate because what is true for one isn't true for another. Certainly not everyone will be satisfied with any decision, not a beekeeper, not a customer, but like organics... a group had to come to a consensus, right?

As for what I initially believed I was getting when I purchased organic in comparison to what I KNOW I am getting now is quite different. I had to learn to read an organic label first (USDA organic, 100% organic, organic, etc...).

To me USDA organic means: NO GMO's, No Antibiotics, No growth hormones, No Synthetic Pesticides, yadda yadda yadda. I use to believe organics was purely about health and safety of animals, it wasn't until later that I learned it was about the environment and the health of the people. Now it seems, that a lot of people know it is healthier and better for the animal and some are just learning about the environmental aspect. At least with those I've spoken to.

Why I choose organic? Not because it is pure (as environmental toxins assure it isn't) but because just like things in my own garden, it reduces my families exposure to synthetic chemicals that they would otherwise be exposed to in non-organic products. (I should clarify that to me "pure" right now means 100% untainted). Oh, I must add, 

I feel the same way about honey. I know that bees pollinate GMO crops, I know that they pollinate pesticide laden plants, I know they bring that back to their hive and it ends up in the honey. I won't use synthetic chemicals to treat bee diseases, my approach is as natural as possible, I'd much rather feed my bees their own honey and not sugar syrup, etc... I'm reducing toxin exposure when I consume my own honey... it isn't perfect, but it helps. That is how I would sell my product to a customer. I can never be organic, I live in the middle of the city, but if I can help reduce a persons exposure to toxins with my product, I most certainly will.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Organic food is folly of the rich. I cant afford to feed my family that way. 

I dont have any problems claiming my honey is organic, pure, local, untouched by aliens, or whatever it takes to bring the dollars in. 

FWIW - I dont chemically treat so I consider my honey organic, period. However, I wont lie if a consumer asks me questions. I usually say something like, "sure it's organic, I dont use any pesticides or growth hormones." Not once has anyone started quoting USDA, EPA, or FDA guidance. 

Also considering that geoscientists have found minute traces of polychlorinated biphenols (PCBs) in polar ice, there is virtually no food product that isnt contaminated to at least some degree (part per billion or trillion?). Therefore no one can really claim that their product is truely chemical free. That's probably why chemical testing isnt typcially used to define "organic" (testing is expensive and if they look closely enought, they _will _find something).


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

I don't feel it's realistically do-able to reach a 'consensus' on honey purity and labeling among the wildly varied and numerous beekeepers out there. A consensus by whom?- a handful of people on one internet forum? A consensus is not enforceable, but it means that everyone agrees on something. If it's not enforceable and it doesn't represent everyone, most people will do as they please anyway and ignore it- especially those who stand to lose a bunch of their profits by doing so. And if it is enforceable, it's called a law or a regulation.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Nabber86

Re: organics being folly for the rich

That is exactly what I meant about organic standards not ultimately benefitting the people but more of a benefit to animals and environment. By people I meant the majority can't afford it. Organics I would have hoped would be a well intentioned thing that should have benefitted the maJority and it doesn't. Farmers who could offer organic food aren't even allowed to market that way due to regulation  Thanks to government not making allowances for the smaller farmer and thanks to those who did or would misuse the term organic.

And your point on toxins always being present are well taken... as are omie's points on trying to come to a consensus. I appreciate the education everyone!


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

S. Pixie - 

A couple of other things to consider, naturally ocurring radiation due to potassium in bananas and nuclear fall out from Japan currently landing on South American banana plantations. How does the "Certified Organic" label deal with that somewhat gray area? 

Omie, I noticed you are located in the Hudson River Valley. I bet you wouldnt want your honey crop tested for PCBs.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Nabbber86,

Thank you for the additional input! This is exactly why I have a love hate relationship with the idea of organics in general. When we were told in beek class there was no such thing as organic honey and then the topic was dropped quickly, I now understand why Marla and Gary didn't bother exploring it further. But through the discourse on here I feel I understand the issue much better


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Personally, I prefer local and sustainable to organic. I won't pay more for the organic sticker, but I will pay more for produce at the local farmers market. I guess it just is a matter of your personal priorities.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Organic food is folly of the rich. I cant afford to feed my family that way.


Can you afford the medical costs and complications associated with not eating organic food? If you knew what the repercussions were for eating cheap food I think you would be swayed the other way. Would you eat a little bit of rat poison every day. Chances are you will when you get older. We don't want to pay high prices for food any more than we want to pay high prices for gas. At least with food you can grow some of your own. If there is no difference in cheap honey vs. expensive honey then why the concern for Organic honey? Certainly you are not proposing that you can eat anything you find in the super market as long as you eat raw 100% organic honey are you?

I don't think Organic food is a folly of the rich. I think it should be the only choice in the super market but that is just me.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Can you afford the medical costs and complications associated with not eating organic food? If you knew what the repercussions were for eating cheap food I think you would be swayed the other way.


Is there any science that you can provide to support that?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Can you afford the medical costs and complications associated with not eating organic food? If you knew what the repercussions were for eating cheap food I think you would be swayed the other way. Would you eat a little bit of rat poison every day.


When you finish your risk assessment of the impact of eating non-organic food on future medical costs, send me the numbers. I'd love to see your work.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> What message does this say?


That people are paranoid about germs?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Germs!? The bottle says "to remove pesticides, waxes, chemicals."


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh, I didn't read as much as I should have. So, that means that the Produce Manager thinks that there are "pesticides, wax and chemicals" on the produce. The Organic Produce.

I take a little Rat Poison every day, as prescribed by my Physician. Lots of folks do and they walk around alive alot longer than if they didn't.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Acebird, seriously? 

I know the science, and as much as I support that organics are much healthier option than the processed foods most people can afford, the fact remains, organics are not affordable! 

Try sharing your logic with my friends who both work full time, have a mortgage and two kids in school. They have to budget down to $200 a week for groceries just to be able to cover all their bills and trust me, they don't live in excess like a lot of people do. If they were to buy all organic it would cost a lot more than $200 a week, triple that amount. Breakfast, lunch and dinner doesn't come cheap. I know, because a very large percentage of our families food is organic. Just today I purchased enough groceries to make spaghetti, the ingredients are all organic, the pasta, meat, celery, onion, carrots, garlic, rosemary, milk, and the juice we drink and the bill was $42, we are a family of five. Sure, we can drink water... but that has its own set of toxins, doesn't it? Or we could NOT make our spaghetti from scratch and instead buy it canned, but the reports about canned products aren't so great either. Hmmm...

Instead, most people buy local produce in season, garden, eat at home instead of at restaurants, and make food from scratch. That is what my friends who can afford $200 a week in groceries try their best to do. Those things are doable. Organics, not so much 

It isn't that people don't want to pay high prices for food, its that they can't.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

RiodeLobo said:


> Personally, I prefer local and sustainable to organic. I won't pay more for the organic sticker, but I will pay more for produce at the local farmers market. I guess it just is a matter of your personal priorities.


I think we have a winner here! The label organic is not what most consumers think it is. Local and sustainable will be what many consumers think they are getting with organic. Plus, transportation, storage, packaging, etc. are usually much less.

How do we describe local, sustainable honey? I think local raw and/or pure honey does that. In todays society education is needed continuosly.

Tom


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Nabber86 said:


> Omie, I noticed you are located in the Hudson River Valley. I bet you wouldnt want your honey crop tested for PCBs.


Sure I would (if I was selling honey)- i'd be fine with that as long as EVERYONE's honey was tested, and not just singling _me_ out!  Then again, I don't happen to believe much in the concept of there being truly organic honey (vegetables yes, honey no), and I wouldn't be calling my honey organic. Like I suggested before, I'd be labeling my honey simply as _"Raw natural local honey. No pesticides or medications are applied to our bees or hives"_.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Omie - I wasnt trying to pick on you. I have done a lot of work with cleanup of PCBs, especially with GE and the Hudson River. What a mess.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Omie said:


> Sure I would (if I was selling honey)- i'd be fine with that as long as EVERYONE's honey was tested, and not just singling me out. Like I suggested before, I'd be labeling my honey simply as _"Raw natural local honey. No pesticides or medications are applied to our bees or hives"_.


Other than if you, the producer, tests your honey, when do you suppose anyone would test, or cause to be tested, the honey you produce? Unless it is to verify certification? Which is usually a requirement of a certifying agency, such as NOFA.

Otherwise, the only reason NYS Ag&Mkts would have your honey tested is if there were a problem in which someone got sick.

I really seriously suggest any labeling should tell what is in the jar and not what is not in the jar. I can understand that one might think that it a good idea to explain everything that might be asked, but why bring the suggestion and make people wonder?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Lots of folks do and they walk around alive alot longer than if they didn't.


If it makes you happy then by all means. Just keep in mind that today's pill society is totally unnecessary. Eat right and exercise and you don't need these pills.



> I know the science, and as much as I support that organics are much healthier option than the processed foods most people can afford, the fact remains, organics are not affordable!


I am serious Michele. You got a cell phone, right, what does that cost per month. Food is the smallest portion of a family budget. The average person pays more for entertainment than I ever paid for a mortgage. 

If you are going to buy all organic ingredients then what is your objection to buying organic pasta? Isn't it the same?

Buying local is great but you could be buying the same GMO, chemically treated food that you can buy in the grocery store unless you know what the farmer is doing.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> I really seriously suggest any labeling should tell what is in the jar and not what is not in the jar.


What is in the jar is normally a requirement what is not in the jar is marketing.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Acebird,

Well, you shot yourself in the foot again not understanding my point (organic food... pasta? You lost me)

BTW/ My friend doesn't own a cell phone, she lives with the basics as sustainably as she and her family can afford. She doesn't even have internet or cable. There are quite a few families in MN living that way, it is quite the movement. Most would prefer getting their own produce through gardening then breaking the bank on organics from the store. I recently met a man in northern MN that lives off grid, no cell, no phone, no t.v. If he eats organic I missed that part since he fed me and my family non-organic food when he cooked us breakfast. 

Yes, I own a cell phone and as I already told you, I buy organic and could afford to buy it 100% of the time but choose not to. If my kids want a candy bar or a burger at the fair, I don't insist on organic. BUT that isn't true for everyone. My mother raised two daughters by herself on $9,000 a year, we had no phone, no car, my mother walked to work 6 days a week. There are mothers like that in 2011 as well. If you seriously believe people can't afford organics because they spend too much time on entertainment and other unnecessary items, your misguided. Spend more time trying to understand ALL people from different economic backgrounds and less time reading scientific journals on organics and such and you might learn something.

Eating right and exercising doesn't always keep a person pill free. Genetics play a huge role in health, you might want to read the science on that one 

You might also try talking to your local farmers. You might learn to trust a few and you'll also learn that several of them already are organic, they just can't afford to meet the USDA certification program. I'd much rather buy local from a farmer I trust than organic products from out of state.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> I'd much rather buy local from a farmer I trust than organic products from out of state.


So would I but if you go to a local farmer and he tells you Organics is bunk then it pretty much tells you what he is doing and not doing. That is all I am saying.



> [Genetics play a huge role in health/QUOTE]
> 
> Not as much as you think. I will rephrase my comment. For the majority of the population you can avoid the later years pill therapy that is common today with good food and exercise. There will always be some that are outside the bell shaped curve. Those would be the ones that can smoke, drink and take risk and still live to 100 and those that do everything right and die in their forties.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

I'm curious where your data comes from on genetics. You say "not as much as I think." Can you back that up with resources. I've studied quite a bit on genetics and I've not found any scientific data to back up your claim that genetics doesn't play a HUGE role in human health. I didn't say it played the SOLE role in human health, just a huge role. 

You stated:

_today's pill society is totally unnecessary. Eat right and exercise and you don't need these pills._

Maybe you should rephrase that to "eat right and exercise and you might not need those pills." Because genetics DO play a role. Ask anyone who exercises routinely and eats well, they have heart attacks and strokes too 

I've not met a farmer I trusted that told me organics were bunk.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

As I have written earlier in the thread. To be certified "organic Honey" it will have to go to a labratory, public or private for analysis and certification. But after reading through the thread, it seems that there is no such thing as organic is the consensus. SO if that is the case then all of us must then strive to produce as clean and pure a product that we can. Produce honey in as clean and sanitary condition as possible. Thus we can all further the good name and wholesumness of honey to the consumer. TK (Souix member)


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> SO if that is the case then all of us must then strive to produce as clean and pure a product that we can.


That's the best plan.



> Ask anyone who exercises routinely and eats well, they have heart attacks and strokes too


Eventually you will die of something but if you are trying to say that exercise and food are not directly associated with health problems then it is you who needs to learn something.

Most farmers do not use organic practices. That is it part I would like to go back to because there was a time when most farmers did practice organic farming. It is not the practice that causes the prices to be high it is because only a few are doing it. If every farm was doing it the price increase would not be over 15% instead of the two and three times the cost of the cheap food. Gasoline can increase by 15% in a week and nobody's revolting yet. Some people pay more for gas then they do for food! They are not going to give up their wheels they will just look for cheaper food. And then pay the price later.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Acebird,

_"if you are trying to say that exercise" _

Where did I say that exercise and eating healthy doesn't improve health? Don't assume what I'm trying to say because so far you've been way off base. 

You were the one who said _"today's pill society is totally unnecessary. Eat right and exercise and you *don't* need these pills."_ Implying that all it takes is exercise and eating organics to be healthy.

Again, you need to socialize more and stop seeing the world as purely black and white (as all your previous statements suggest you do) and you would learn that older people aren't the only ones dying of strokes and heart attacks. 

I'm sure your stance on exercise and eating right being the link to all good health would be interesting to my friend who had brain surgery after her 2nd child was born. She was 30 yrs old at the time. She spends 5 days a week at Lifetime fitness and eats healthier than anyone I know.

Where did I say MOST farmers *do* use organic practices. I said a lot of farmers follow organic practices but are unable to be certified due to cost. A PROVEN FACT!!! 

Thank you for proving my point about organics for me. If there had been more allowances by the government in the USDA organic certification program there would be more small farmers selling USDA organics, therefore, the cost would be lower and more people could afford it, but instead those farmers have to develop trusting relationships with customers that are willing to seek them out. Difficult again for the less affluent people in America. This all goes back to my previous posts about not trusting the government, how organics don't serve the people and why I fear standards being set for honey. Thank you.

Going back to previous posts. You've shared quite a bit of knowledge you claim to have on many scientific studies and when it was requested that you share resources, such as how genetics do not play a LARGE role in health, you've failed to produce anything. I'm still waiting.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

> in today's pill society is totally unnecessary. Eat right and exercise and you don't need these pills.


As if the development of modern antibiotics and statin cholesterol fighting drugs have done nothing to increase longevity and quality of life?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Longevity yes, quality of life no.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

?? 

I always thought being alive is a higher quality of life than being dead and rotting in the ground.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Most farmers do not use organic practices. That is it part I would like to *go back to because there was a time* when most farmers did practice organic farming. It is not the practice that causes the prices to be high it is because only a few are doing it.


Out of curiosity what was the average lifespan, eating organic food, getting a lot of exercise and without modern medicine and medications? There are implications of quality over quantity. However the average life expectancy in the 1700's was late 40's the 1800's mid 50's. So in modern America the average is late 70's. Even if you assume the last 10-15 years have poor quality, you are still far ahead of where you would be other wise.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Now we are being told that taking pills for an ailment leads to longevity but no quality. Ok. Whatever. :lpf: So, I have a predisposition to heart disease, I'm also a runner and weight lifter who eats organic. If I have a heart attack, which is quite possible because my healthy family counterparts have had that misfortune, and I take medication for it, my life is just going to be a big pile of doo doo? Thanks for letting me know. 

This conversation has gone way off from organic honey and government regulation and since Acebird is giving opinion and no resources to back up his statements I find this all a waste of time. When the resources start flowing in I'll be back


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

If acebird is to answer that question he should know that the average lifespan for men in the US is 71 and the female is 79. Now factor in organic, no med's and exercise.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Barry said:


> ... The bottle says "to remove pesticides, waxes, chemicals."


I don't think it would be illegal to sell it if you bottled tap water for this purpose. Water is a universal solvent and given enough time, enough water will remove anything. 

The problem with the organic food versus non-organic or "inorganic" (?) food debate is that humans don't understand what they know. :doh: We hijack good sounding generalizations at the point of a pen, and then attempt to reconstruct the whole of society around these catch phrases. I call these generalizations "catch phrases" because they only trap or "catch" those of us to far removed from reality to look where they step. The words "organic", "real", and "natural" are (IMHO) examples of catch phrases used in this manner.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Out of curiosity what was the average lifespan, eating organic food, getting a lot of exercise and without modern medicine and medications?


There are many factors affecting life expectancy. If you want to compare diet and exercise you should take any year and compare how one region does compared to another. Say Japan and United States or African nations to United states. You could also see some trends within a country for short periods. The Japanese diet has now increased in red meats and a decline in their lifespan is a result.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

I would love to see the great social critics of the past, men like Mark Twain, Charles Dickens, and George Bernard Shaw weigh in on “organic” verses non-organic, or “in-organic” food. 

My reason for saying this is that George Bernard Shaw’s play “Pygmalion” was recently aired on TV in its Hollywood musical form “My Fair Lady.” At the danger of assuming too much, I suspect that the people who embrace organic food feel their views are closer to the views of the great social critics named above. 

In the musical “My Fair Lady,” Elisa Doolittle’s opening number listed the most pressing needs, wants, and wishes of a poor Victorian era flower girl. In Elisa Doolittle’s world “Lots o’ coal making lots o’ heat…” and “… lots o’ chocolate for me to eat….” trumped Canadian organic potatoes. In light of this revelation, I am interested in how George Bernard Shaw, Charles Dickens, and Victor Hugo among others would view or write about today’s “organic” food movement. I wonder if these authors would treat the organic food movement as the last best hope for the hungry and poor as some seem to believe. Or would Hugo, Dickens and others portray organic food and its champions as a greedy capitalist cabal conspiring to stick it to the poor and hungry while these organic J.P. Morgans rake in obscene profits.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

> I don't think it would be illegal to sell it if you bottled tap water for this purpose. Water is a universal solvent and given enough time, enough water will remove anything.


No only is water the universal solvent, it is an _*inorganic*_ solvent to boot (by any definition). Now I am really confused. What happens when you wash certified organic veggies with an inorganic solvent?


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Acebird said:


> ... That is it part I would like to go back to because there was a time when most farmers did practice organic farming....


Yes, and there was a time when most farmers, at least those with a surplus to sell, practiced slavery and indentured servitude.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> That's the best plan.
> Most farmers do not use organic practices. That is it part I would like to go back to because there was a time when most farmers did practice organic farming. It is not the practice that causes the prices to be high it is because only a few are doing it. If every farm was doing it the price increase would not be over 15% instead of the two and three times the cost of the cheap food. Gasoline can increase by 15% in a week and nobody's revolting yet. Some people pay more for gas then they do for food! They are not going to give up their wheels they will just look for cheaper food. And then pay the price later.



Now I understand what you are saying. We need to return to a simpler agrarian way of life and economic system. Is that your point?

Brother Number 1 would be proud of you!

:lookout:


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

_a universal solvent and given enough time, enough water will remove anything._

The wash in Barry's example is unfortunately false advertising, the potatoes aren't. Neither water or commercial washes can rid a plant of pesticides, not even over time. Pesticides are absorbed by a plant when applied to its leaves, seed or soil. The chemical circulates through the tissue of that plant so no amt of washing will get rid of it. There is a good article in mother earth news about this. References cited are from the EPA, U.S Dept. of Agriculture, California Dept of Ag and the Pesticide Action Network.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Try this one on for size. 99.9% of the pesticides we ingest are naturally occurring in the foods we eat (caused by the natural selection of chemical warfare in plants that allowed them to survive the evolutionary process).

And they are carcinogenic, with a similar potency of synthetic pesticides.

http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/06/06/synthetic-v-natural-pesticides/


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## kopeck (May 26, 2007)

The Soap Pixie said:


> That is exactly what I meant about organic standards not ultimately benefitting the people but more of a benefit to animals and environment.


Sorry to quote so far back but I wanted to address this sentence. I've seen animals die in the name of producing organic food and no, I don't mean by way of the butcher.

When organic livestock become sick there's very little that can be done in order to keep things "organic". Some come through just fine, other don't, they all suffer to a certain extent. In my mind it's less about being organic and more about just being moderate. Treat what needs to be treated and not what doesn't; I don't see why the animals caught in the middle should suffer . I'm more worried about whole sale treatment of problems that don't really exist honestly.

I treat my bees the same way. If everything is fine, I leave them alone but if somethings wrong I'll step in.

There's no flag to fly that goes along with these methods, I like to think it's common sense but I'm sure there are those that disagree with me.

K


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Kopeck,

I was a vegan for 5 years, my heart tends to side with the animals on most things  Thank you for your input and your right, moderate is good. I have the same philosophy about the bees. I will step in when necessary and if there aren't non-toxic ways of doing so then the bees are just going to have to go the way nature intended.

Riodelobo,.

Now you've given me something else to process. Lol! The more I inquire the worse it gets.

I guess I will stay focussed on environmental toxins. Food was never my strong suit. Organic or not organic we live in a toxic waste land already and as a woman I have an average of 200 carcinogenic or potential carcinogenic chemicals attached to my fat cells right now. No amount of organics and exercise will flush that out. I'll focus on eliminating risk factors and environmental toxins for future gen's. Long road but someone has to do it


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Nabber86 said:


> Not only is water ...the universal solvent it is an _*inorganic*_ solvent to boot... Now I am really confused. What happens when you wash certified organic veggies with an inorganic solvent?


Hey y'all, I got the answer to Nabber86's question. You wash your certified organic veggies in copious amounts of expensive French Perrier bottled water. The tiny bubbles convert natural or in-organic water into ORGANIC H2O, YEA!!! :thumbsup:


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Scrapfe said:


> Hey y'all, I got the answer to Nabber86's question. You wash your certified organic veggies in copious amounts of expensive French Perrier bottled water. The tiny bubbles convert natural or in-organic water into ORGANIC H2O, YEA!!! :thumbsup:


Perrier? That's a whole nuther can o worms. Remember when they found Benzene in Perrier years ago. I gues that make it even more _organic_.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Acebird said:


> ... Most farmers do not use organic practices. That is it part I would like to go back to because there was a time when most farmers did practice organic farming. It is not the practice that causes the prices to be high it is because only a few are doing it...


What would be the effect if all (farmers) were doing it? For a minute let’s forget about the Billions of people who would die if farming practices suddenly reversed 300 years into the past. Let’s just task the people advocating the practice of organic agriculture with the job of picking the 40% of the United States population to be deliberately starved to death by converting 40% of our existing farm land to grain and forage production just so we can feed, pasture, and raise the livestock and draft animals needed by an organic farm 300 years ago. 

Everything taken into account, by using primitive farming practices I suspect that we would need to increase at least four or five fold the number of acres currently under cultivation just to raise the same amount of food we produce today. Now that brings into question "Who is going to pick or chose which National Park, whose Grass Land, what Rain Forrest, or how many Wet Lands we convert into crop land, and will the selection process be fair?"


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Or we could all go back to subsistence farming. But i think that might negatively impact our quality modern of life.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> by using primitive farming practices


I was growing tired of this topic but organic practices have no requirement of primitive farming. You can mass produce using organic methods. The big boys are now involved in it cashing in on the profits.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

The Soap Pixie said:


> I was a vegan for 5 years, my heart tends to side with the animals on most things


Off topic but curious. Do vegans consider honey to be vegan? How about bread (leavened) or alcohol? I have always wondered.

Thanks


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> [No amount of organics and exercise will flush that out. /QUOTE]
> 
> What?? Water and exercise flushes out toxins. You just want an excuse.
> 
> BTW My wife was a vegetarian for over 30 years. She turned me into a flexitarian. She now eats pasture raised beef, pig, chicken, and wild deer because as you say organic is not organic anymore. However even the big guys have restrictions if they want to jump on the organics bandwagon. We live in the city and are not allowed to have livestock. Our chickens are grandfathered in because we got a permit just in the nick of time.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

I can't speak for all vegans as they all seem to have their own way of thinking as far as what each one will consume but I was a member of PETA at that time (please, no poking fun ) and PETA is antibeekeeping and therefore, anti honey. Funny that we were allowed to eat almonds though :scratch: As for alcohol, I didn't drink so I'm not entirely sure what the vegan stance is on that, I only explored what I intended to consume. You got me on the bread, what in bread is from an animal? Though I'm not a vegan now I do make my own bread and sometimes it contains an egg and other times it doesn't. I have a feeling your about to teach me something I wasn't aware of. :s


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

_What?? Water and exercise flushes out toxins. You just want an excuse._

Acebird,

You've just proven to me you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to health. Which I already figured since you keep spouting opinions on the subject with no evidence to back up anything you say. You simply just ignore the requests for resources, which speaks volumes. 

FACT: fat soluble chemicals cannot be flushed from fat cells with water. Exercise can limit the amount of fat cells you have, therefore, lessening the amount of chemicals you store. If someone were obese were and took on a rigid exercise program to break down fat at an accelerated rate, the toxins are immediately released into the blood stream and could cause death.

An example of a chemical stored in fat that cannot be flushed out with water and/or exercise is DDT. DDT is an organochlorine.

_"Organochlorines are compounds that contain carbon, chlorine, and hydrogen. Their chlorine-carbon bonds are very strong which means that they do not break down easily. They are highly insoluble in water, but are attracted to fats. Since they resist metabolism and are readily stored in fatty tissue of any animal ingesting them, they accumulate in animals in higher trophic levels. This may occur when birds eat fish that have been exposed to the contaminant. It may also affect humans if they drink milk of a dairy cow that has ingested the chemical because the chemical is excreted in its milk fat. This is called biological magnification."_

_Organochlorines are some of the chemicals found most often in the hundreds of tests of human body tissue - blood, adipose tissue, breastmilk - that have been conducted around the world. Because of their chemical structure, organochlorines break down slowly, build up in fatty tissues, and remain in our bodies for a long time._

Here is one reference and there are thousands more on this topic, I won't waste any more time responding to you though since it seems you are more about antagonizing people with your posts than you are about learning and sharing facts. So if you want to know more on this topic you'll have to do the research yourself the way others do it.

BTW/I've been fit and exercise routinely since I was 15, I'm now turning 40. I also drink more than the required amount of water each day. My body is filled with carcinogenic chemicals that aren't going anywhere and so are yours. Doubt it, ask for the blood test at your next physical. Good luck!

http://www.chemicalbodyburden.org/cs_organochl.htm

http://www.chemicalbodyburden.org/whatisbb.htm


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

I've been told that most vegans will not consume (or wear) any products from animals- that includes milk, eggs, honey, leather, fur, feathers, & _wool_. I think yeast is considered more like a plant than an animal by vegans.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

True Omie, yeast was not considered an animal product as far as I know, but that was nearly 20 yrs ago so maybe that has changed :s


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

The thread seems to have taken a rather personal turn. Let's turn back. Thanks.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

So, as far as I have read and heard, there is no 'certification' for US produced organic honey. Yet the person who answered Soap Pixie's query way back in this thread says there is a certification for US organic honey but that it's hard to obtain, but they have it for their product. Others say the purity standards and regulations have not been completed for honey yet.
So does anyone know for sure here? :s


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

http://www.ysorganic.com/organic.html



> So, as far as I have read and heard, there is no 'certification' for US produced organic honey.


Looks like there is but a certified land in Illinois a state that is nothing but GMO corn?


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Omie,

I just asked her through email to provide me with a link to her resource for this information or a link to the info showing this is actually certified and not just proposed. I'll let you know if I get anything.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I am not vegan, but the way it was explained to me was this: 

Any product that comes from a life form that has a face is verboten. Bees have faces, therefore you cannot eat honey. Besides beekeeping is clearly exploiting the bees for man's use. Sheep have faces = no wool. As with cows, no leather 

Yeast cells have no faces, therefore meade and beer are ok to consume. As with mushrooms and other fungi. 

The face thing may sound kind of silly, but it really helps a omnivore like me understand the system.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Nabber86,

It wasn't so much about the face with bees but their treatment and suffering. Here is a link to PETA's stance on it. The "does it have a face, don't eat it" became a great slogan though.

http://prime.peta.org/2009/01/but-what-about-honey-is-it-cruelty-free

We were also told if we had ****roaches and mice that we should try to coexist.

After reading the comments on PETA, I think I'll add my own opinion on beekeeping.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

The face thing is just a rule-of-thumb for newby vegans and the general public, so they can quickly identify what can and cant be eaten. 

Obviously, it's an exploitive thing that goes beyond diet.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Ah, I see. Your correct


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

> Most farmers do not use organic practices. That is it part I would like to go back to because there was a time when most farmers did practice organic farming. It is not the practice that causes the prices to be high it is because only a few are doing it. If every farm was doing it the price increase would not be over 15% instead of the two and three times the cost of the cheap food.



Actually, the price of food would increase much more than 15%. Production would plummet. It would take more people farming to attempt to produce enough food. Inputs, nutrients, would increase in price because of limited supply. Animal agriculture would increase to try and supply some of those nutrients/manure. While the use of cover crops can supply some nutrients you would have to take land out of food production to grow the cover crops.

A move away from modern agriculture would actually benefit beekeepers. Sugar production would decrease so demand for sweeteners would increase. Increased plantings of nitrogen fixing cover crops would increase nectar resources.

Tom


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220819

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214127&highlight=organic+brazilian+honey&page=8

The easiest way I know to skirt organic production requirements is to produce or claim to produce, oh let’s say organic watercress in in... oh… oh… oh, I know… in Timbuktu. Then bribe the Mali Agriculture Minister or Trade Minister or both to certify that your watercress is in fact organic. 

Then the US Department of State and the US Constitution protects you, via the clause making all foreign treaties (which reciprocal trade agreements are) the supreme law of the land. This gambit guarantees your organic Mali watercress preferential treatment and maybe even unlimited access, to these shores, our supermarkets …. and your children’s lunch boxes.

I read a while ago that the USDA and the FDA combined spent on average a total of only 3 weeks per year monitoring the cleanliness (testing is an entirely different can of worms) of food processing plants in any foreign countries where either fresh, canned, or frozen food is processed before shipment to the USA. That is they monitor the wholesomeness if the exporting country will allow a known US Government agent other than a diplomat to ramble around inside their borders. For any number of reasons this is something many South American countries are loath to do. At any rate, all overseas testing is done at the request, and with the consent of the overseas companies whose production lines are being monitored. No mention was made of anyone from the USA poking there noises into what goes on at the farms where foreign produce, either organic or non-organic, is raised. Perhaps alpha6 has some personal knowledge he could add to this.

If only 3 weeks (sometimes less) per year are spent monitoring all packing houses and processing plants, in any one country, then I suspect that mere seconds or even less time is spent per country insuring organic Canadian spuds, Brazilian organic honey, or other products sold as organic, are in fact produced using organic methods.

No, I did not make a typing error, ORGANIC Brazilian honey is not an oxymoron, its been on the market for a long time, and has shall we say a checkered past. I suspect that buying organic Chinese honey is also not an oxymoron, just producing it is. Now tell me again where this organic honey is from.


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

I'm a truck farmer (for over 30 years now) i have noticed the change in plants that at one time you could plant or stick in the ground and expect a crop. Now to get a crop you have to use commercial fertilizer (for more production) fungicides and insecticides because of the new type of insects and plant disease's that have been brought into this country from all over the world, and don't foreget acid rain, a term i never heard of growing up:s So to me the word Organic is something you read about in the history books. When i sell honey at the farmers market, i have a sign that say's Pure Local Honey. When ask if it's organic, i say no, that in my opinion, you would have to live on an island (with no neighbors) in the middle of the ocean to be able to make that statement. That my honey comes straight from my hives, is strained once, and the only heat it get's is from my electric knife and they can come to my house 2 miles south of where their standing for location. I'm glad that PETA is into the face to face thing, maybe this will help to keep them from reproducing. Jack


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

_if the exporting country will allow a known US Government agent other than a diplomat to ramble around inside their borders_

Read about this happening with organic food coming from China. 

http://www.emagazine.com/archive/4987


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Scrapfe said:


> No, I did not make a typing error, ORGANIC Brazilian honey is not an oxymoron, its been on the market for a long time, and has shall we say a checkered past.


I took some photos in my local supermarket last year. (I felt like a spy/secret agent!)
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=591804&postcount=25


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

TWall said:


> ... Production would plummet. It would take more people farming to attempt to produce enough food...


When he was running for office, The current Alabama Commissioner of Agriculture and Industries told me that it would require every teenager in the USA working stoop labor on 4 1/2 acres of land just too organically produce all the food and fiber America agriculture currently produces. With the work ethic of American youth today, what does that tell you about the sustainability of organic agriculture?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> As I have written earlier in the thread. To be certified "organic Honey" it will have to go to a labratory, public or private for analysis and certification.


...and as I've posted earlier in this thread, your statement above is simply not true. the entire organic program is based on practices, not on residues. tests do happen, and one can get the certification revoked due to poor test results, but this is all after the fact, and not always done.

in order to be certified, one has to follow some set of defined practices, and one must pay a certifier to inspect (which is mostly about paperwork).

i'm not talking about how things "should be", but about how things "are".

deknow


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

TWall said:


> Actually, the price of food would increase much more than 15%. Production would plummet. It would take more people farming to attempt to produce enough food. Inputs, nutrients, would increase in price because of limited supply. Animal agriculture would increase to try and supply some of those nutrients/manure. While the use of cover crops can supply some nutrients you would have to take land out of food production to grow the cover crops.
> 
> A move away from modern agriculture would actually benefit beekeepers. Sugar production would decrease so demand for sweeteners would increase. Increased plantings of nitrogen fixing cover crops would increase nectar resources.
> 
> Tom


When all is said and done the drop in yields between organically grown crops and today’s methods is only 10%, so I don’t see anything plummeting. The US along has so much capacity to grow food that overproduction exist to the point that farmers have government incentives to leave fields fallow. When you have enough land to produce crops for fuel at a net energy loss you certainly have excess.

Big Ag is at the point in technology today to have computerized tractor machines controlled by GPS positioning so I don’t see any huge increase in labor requirements. This equipment is not obsolete by producing organically. Spraying manure on the field or spraying chemicals on the field still requires equipment. Go into the grocery store and look at the prices fall to just a little more than normal when a big company like Green Giant, Dole and others start producing certified organic. The well known small organic producer can’t compete anymore and they get bought out. The label stays the same for marketing purposes but the big guy owns them now. The small guy has to stay small and sell local because if he steps into the big league he will be subject to the big league rules and regulations. I am in favor for certifications for the big guy to keep them all honest, if I can use that word. Unfortunately it does knock out the small guy from branching out just like any regulations does for any business. However it doesn't necessary end their business. It more than likely limits their size.

We need to have a country that is not controlled by chemical companies. They have succeeded in creating a practice of dumping chemicals on our food and then in later years we are doomed to live on chemicals in pill form. This is non sustainable financially for our country. Health Care for the aged will grow in cost to where it exceeds the military budget.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Omie,

I'm confused. If it has the USDA label, it is certified. But is it only being certified when it is foreign imported but the honey produced here in the U.S is not certified?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Omie said:


> So, as far as I have read and heard, there is no 'certification' for US produced organic honey.


there is a federal draft standard (not yet accepted), and some states have their own approved standards.


> Yet the person who answered Soap Pixie's query way back in this thread says there is a certification for US organic honey but that it's hard to obtain, but they have it for their product.


One only needs to find a certifying agency that is willing to certify them. Because there is no national standard, these agencies (which are private companies, which have license from the govt. to certify organic products). Of course, such a system is prone to corruption....the agency only makes recurring revenue on operations that it consistantly approves....and because most (if not all) operations have _something_ that a certifier could object to (especially with the ambiguity on what standards are being followed), a "i'll scratch your back, you scratch mine" kind of relationship tends to develop.



> Others say the purity standards and regulations have not been completed for honey yet. So does anyone know for sure here? :s


I don't know what "purity standards and regulations" are...the NOP draft on organic honey is still in draft form. The NOP has supposedly decided to apply livestock standards to bees for the time being, but there are some BIG problems with that as well.

Yes, this is as absurd as it reads. Please, if you are actually interested in this, watch the video I posted earlier.

deknow


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Nabber86 said:


> I am not vegan, but the way it was explained to me was this: Any product that comes from a life form that has a face is verboten...


If PETA were telling you the truth about their agenda, then oysters would be vegan. Yet even though no one has found a central nerves system _in_ little less a face _on_ a bi valve mollusk, oysters are verboten.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

That I imagine would include yeast.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

deknow said:


> there is a federal draft standard (not yet accepted),


The fact that this has been this way for so many years indicates the inherent problem with "organic" and I wouldn't be looking to see anything change anytime soon. That's why I stay clear away from the term "organic."


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I will also add this.

My wife and I make our livings from selling (and marketing) honey from bees that are never treated, and never fed (anything but their own honey).

We consistently get a higher price than all but the "organic manuka" honey in the stores, and at the markets. Our suppliers also see a very good price...higher than we can purchase bulk organic honey for.

The bulk of the organic honey available in the U.S. is from Brazil, and I have no way to evaluate what the practices in Brazil really are...we are told they are quite good.

On the bulk market, dark certified organic honey from Brazil is worth less than light colored honey from the U.S. or Canada.

We've been told (by certifiers) that we should be supporting the effort to pass an organic standard for honey, as this would benefit our business. Our research doesn't support this contention.

All the standards in force (the national draft, the approved state standards, the european standard, etc) allow for treatment with orgnaic acids and some essential oils...you can also feed sugar (as long as it's certified organic sugar).

deknow


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

deknow said:


> ... We've been told (by certifiers) that we should be supporting the effort to pass an organic standard for honey, as this would benefit our business...


Referring back to a previous post of your's, it looks like an organic standard will benefit the certifiers business as well.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

That was enlightening deknow, thanks for sharing! I passed on the video you shared with the woman who insists there is a USDA standard here. I personally, after reading everyones statements on this, now feel that organic honey (if we can call it such a thing) is as you say, not feeding sugar syrup and not treating the hive with synthetic chemicals. The rest is nature... bees visiting crops with gmo's, pesticides and such, although I'd never use the organic label because I know what I believe is not what others believe.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> We've been told (by certifiers) that we should be supporting the effort to pass an organic standard for honey, as this would benefit our business. Our research doesn't support this contention.


I can’t see how it would benefit your business either. I do see a value in defining what you can call honey though. I also see a value in what you can label “Organic” honey with limits set on impurities such as pesticides and chemical crop sprays that you can test for. The GMO thing is an impossible dream to have that eliminated from an Organic honey because there is no way to control it. Because of cross pollination it will eventually be impossible to exclude it from all Organic foods over time.


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## LauraJS (Mar 3, 2011)

Organic changed when USDA took over certification of everything. I guess I can do it, if I decide not to medicate my bees, I don't have anyone around for at least 17 miles and since we are doing organic beef and getting certified for that, we won't have non-organic fields after this season. Has anyone ever done hives that aren't medicated what is the success and survival rate. We also have a short growing and long winter season. June 1 last freeze and Sept 30 first freeze.


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## chrisialling (Sep 28, 2021)

The organic food industry is booming. There are many people who are getting into the market because of the high demand for organically-grown food. However, if you are not educated on this topic, it may be hard for you to enter into this business. You must be aware of the different certifications that your products must pass before you can sell your products as organic.


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