# Inspiration to keep going



## CWoods (Apr 5, 2014)

Hello all! 

I finished working for a commercial guy this past year and this year I am on my own. 

I noticed there are some people (i call them beesource trolls) that always talk like there is no money in beekeeping...ever.

Is there anyway some of the commercial guys here could post some of their numbers...like number of hives and income for the year. 

I really want some hope that I can do what I love and actually provide for my family. This would help me see the bigger picture for sure. I haven't quit my day job yet...but that is my eventual goal. I love beekeeping and would love to do this for a living. Thanks guys for your time! :scratch:


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I doubt you are going to get many if any to post what they make a year with number of colonies they have. That's a pretty personal question into someones business.

This I will tell you.

I have been running ~400 colonies and it makes us enough money, my wife works the business full time and actually got a pay raise when she quit her 9-5 job. I still haven't quit my daytime job.

Is there money to be made? YES.
Is it easy money to be made? NO.
Is there easier money to be made? YES
Like anything else in agriculture. Money can be had but you need to work hard for it and you need to have a good business mind to run it the best you can.

What else can be said about it. As far as actual monies I made for the year, thats going to stay between my wife, IRS and me.


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## CWoods (Apr 5, 2014)

Thanks BMAC! 

I really appreciate your response. I totally don't want to be invasive...I know the question is but I just am tired of people saying beekeeping is a money pit and you'll never recoup your investments. I have bought some hives and nucs this year. I am not expecting anything this year but to learn. 

Thanks again BMAC for your response! Congrats on your wife beekeeping full time! I hope yall prosper


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I had a beekeeper in Ga tell me the same thing. He has actually convinced others in the area the same thing. He tried his hand at the commercial level and failed at it.

Personally I think its all in the persons attitude about life and motivation to truly make your own money.

It is aweful expensive to buy all the equipment and machines. If you are going to do migratory beekeeping (ie pollination) start on pallets. Make them standard beekeeping pallets and rent a skid steer to move them. I rented a skidsteer and trailer for the first 3 years I was on migratory equipment and still occassionally rent one so I dont have to drag mine down the road.


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## ga.beeman (Mar 29, 2009)

Yes there is money in bees some years and others you spend more than you make. Equipment and fuel will be your biggest expenses. If you build as you go, I think you will do better. Some guys make a very good living at it and others go bottom up. Your attitude and making smart business decisions are key. I agree with BMAC . But remember every year will not be a bumper crop. Plan for the slow years as well as the good years


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

People usually don't post income and their formula on how to make specific numbers. They may post a working plan.
By the number of folks that have been commercial for years I expect there is enough money in bees. I do get the impression that one needs to be savvy and good with business to make a go of it. The successful commercial beeks would likely be successful with any business they chose to develop and run


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ha ha! Bet none of the naysayers are commercial guys. I've done this for 40 years and with honey prices, pollination rates and bee and queen prices at historic highs, these are the best of times.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

But Mr. Lyon! Kim Flottum said all your bees are dead and we are all gonna die!


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

As Jim states,this is as great time to be in bees. Quick return on investment and equipment holds value very well. Learn how to keep them alive and the money will follow.
Sheri


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

CWoods:

A lot of the commercials have other ag. related operations up and running before they get into commercial beekeeping.

So, they've got quite an advantage over someone who is starting with just a handful of hives.

You could try to get an FSA loan when ready.

But, you'll need to prove to yourself first that the take home pay is worth the effort, and you'll need to pay all expenses while expanding at the same time.

If you can do that, then it's possible.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

trick is to learn how to keep them alive, then all life is good. when they die... the real trick is how to keep going after that point.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

The trick is to get back your initial investment, take home, and bankroll for the next operation BEFORE they die.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

We run around 7000 and gross over seven figures. Profit isn't all that impressive because of all the luxuries we can now buy. But I know commercial guys that are now failing cuz of dead hives. Have a plan for a major die off.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Is anyone going to tell him that he needs to gross at least $300 per hive, and his net is only going to be around $60 per hive?

And, if his operation isn't growing at between 7 and 15% per year, he's slipping backwards.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Cwoods, post 7 & 9 are from well managed outfits with sound advice. 


P.S. it could be raining honey outside and some keepers would have there barrels turned upside down.


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## CWoods (Apr 5, 2014)

WLC said:


> Is anyone going to tell him that he needs to gross at least $300 per hive, and his net is only going to be around $60 per hive?
> 
> And, if his operation isn't growing at between 7 and 15% per year, he's slipping backwards.


Really? For every 100 hives the net is 6 grand? So for a 500 hive yard you would only net 30 grand.....hmmmm.......you sure...?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Keeping bees alive isn't an impossible goal, we've been doing it for over 30 years, some years better than others. But, yes, it is just good business planning to allow for bad years, they do happen.
We gross somewhere between $375-450 per colony, including honey production, almond pollination, spring package/nuc/colony sales. We are in an area with pretty good honey crop averages and good spring retail bee prices. We net more than $60 per colony; we net that from almonds alone, not even counting the surplus bees produced. But this is after building up over years. We didn't start with big expensive equipment; built up paying cash as we could afford; plowing just about everything back into the business. We didn't buy a forklift til we were in the neighborhood of 1200 colonies, John's bad back is testament to that. Definitely harder to do with a debt load, but I know several younger/newer beekeepers successfully doing just that. Bet they still end up with a bad back.
Sheri


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Cwoods, post 7 & 9 are from well managed outfits with sound advice.


As is post 15 :thumbsup:

Sheri


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## CWoods (Apr 5, 2014)

Thanks Ms. Sheri


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

CWoods said:


> Really? For every 100 hives the net is 6 grand? So for a 500 hive yard you would only net 30 grand.....hmmmm.......you sure...?


For 500 hives, you would need $250K in total assets to run it.

But, we're just 'ball parking' if you don't have that yet.

You have to determine how long would it take you to build up to that target amount.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I have seen first hand a guy buying into the business and not being able to hold through a major die off. Bankrupt. Cant catch that raining honey without bees in those boxes. Beekeeping is very lucrative, its your business strategy and knowledge of beekeeping that will determine if your successful or not.

Cwoods, would you feel comfortable buying a 1000 hive operation? or build into it?

guess you can call me one of those beesource trolls.. lol
I think there was a topic called "easy money" or something like that which pretty much covered it all


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Ian:

You've got cattle, bees, and farm acres galore. You're a businessman.

Now if CW could buy into 1,000 hives, would he know enough to sell off most of those 1,000 and any increases to recoup his investment and hold on to the profits and new assets? Of course, he could do the same thing over again for a few years till he doesn't need to buy any more hives.

I'm not so sure he would or could.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

your right in a way WLC. Any time you factor debt out over an extended period of time, that commitment has to be made, regardless of circumstances. One advantage with beekeeping is it is a business that is easy to get into, but the business holds very little equity to leverage on, unlike cattle or grain land. If anyone does not believe me, go talk to your banker and ask how much money he will lend you against your bees hive stock.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I'll agree and add this: they don't know when to pull the trigger. Their leverage is the productivity of their operation which with Honeybees is a very short turn around time, within months.

IMHO, you can hold on to too many colonies for too long.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I know I could have bought another house for what we have spent on expanding 100 hives more with package bees from NZ and the needed equipment to move them properly for pollination, I need to be more sustainable to turn a profit ! If I can maintain my numbers and increase each year by 10-15% by wintering major amounts of nucleus colonies to bounce back from any losses I get, then I would say that anyone that can keep bees alive from year to year and make their own increases can make a good living  I intend on doing just that !
Basically I intend on making 40 % increase with nucs every year, that way I can incur a heavy winter loss of 20-30% and any summer losses of 3-5% and come out the next year with a small portion for increase OR even the same amount of hives wintered and never have to buy bees. But this is just the way I want to do it and I believe it will work.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

WLC said:


> IMHO, you can hold on to too many colonies for too long.


Which goes back to my original comment about managing your business.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

WLC said:


> IMHO, you can hold on to too many colonies for too long.


my strategy is maintenance, and holding as close to my targeted hive numbers every year. Some years it means bring in replacements, some years its selling off surplus


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Ian:

You've already built up your infrastructure and assets.

Someone starting off with modest assets would take many years to 'ratchet' their way up to a reasonable income level.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Excellent observation WLC. Which is why I stated its not easy money. Starting off with anything that is worthwhile takes time. Yes once all infrastructure is in place its financially easier and you can start putting the money away. Kind of like buying your first house on your first job.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

BMAC:

The only thing that CW can do to see what kind of a market he's operating in is to find out what kind of gross and net he can generate.

However, I'm in a different market. I left 100 pounds of honey, each, on two hives for example. At a farmer's market in the city, it sells for over $30 a pound. So, I could have grossed $6,000 if that was my game.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Keeping hives healthy, strong and full of bees is as hard as it has ever been.
Making money with strong healthy hives full of bees is easy in todays market.


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## DLMKA (Feb 7, 2012)

I'm going into my third year as a hobby/sideline beekeeper. Started 2012 with two colonies, ended with 9. 2013 started with 8, ended with 21. Hoping to go from 16 to 50 this year. Been paying cash and making most of my own equipment. I may not have much but it's all mine. I plan on expanding until either I can make as much keeping bees as my day job or I just can't keep up while working a day job. Not going to go in debt to expand but reinvesting "profits" in equipment and hopefully a bigger shop/shed


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

One thing is to shop around for good, used equipment. New stuff can take a long time to pay off.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

WLC said:


> Ian:
> 
> You've already built up your infrastructure and assets.
> 
> Someone starting off with modest assets would take many years to 'ratchet' their way up to a reasonable income level.


exactly exactly exactly, 
buy in your equipment, build your bees. If the bees die, your out your time, the equipment is still there and it holds a value


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

It is also worth defining what a "commercial" beekeeper is and does. 100 colonies is approximately the trigger point at which serious money has to be spent on automation and heavy equipment. It will cost about $70,000 to cross this boundary. Second boundary is at roughly 2000 colonies. This is about as many as one person can manage given reasonable levels of automation and some seasonal help. Multiple products have to be produced and sold to make this operation profitable. Once you pass 2000 colonies it will take about one additional full time employee for each 2000 colonies added to the operation.

A safe figure to use for estimating the "cost to play" in a 2000 colony operation is $500 per colony. This includes the cost of the bees, equipment, trucks, feed, honeyhouse, etc. So a 2000 colony operation is roughly $1,000,000 to set up. Yearly maintenance will run roughly $70 per colony for this size operation. Note that "maintenance" does not include things like gas, transportation, fees, etc. It is ONLY the upkeep of the colony.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you don't have what it takes to percervere already w/in yourself no amount of inspiration from others will keep you going. And if you are determined to support yourself and your family by beekeeping you will have to figure that out yourself by doing it and figuring out what fits best for you under your own circumstances.

If you don't already have a business background get the basics down well by attending some classes somewhere so you can keep track of the money and the business of beekeeping. You probably already know enough about keeping bees to be successful at that. But are you good a business?

Best wishes.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Yes, it's true that it takes a bit to get built up to a profitable level if you are working from the ground up. What business doesn't? It's also true that few businesses offer the potential ROI that a beekeeping investment does. A single 10 frame hive can usually be purchased for around $125 in the early spring and with honey prices well over $2.00 per lb. and the national average yield per colony at around 60 lbs. much of your initial investment can be paid back in year one. Add in the potential of a $150 rental fee late the following winter and you can easily see how a lot of money can be made pretty quickly. It's important to note, here, that keeping bees alive and well in Canada is a different situation than the US where it's really quite easy to keep ones numbers up with post almond splits and home raised queens by moving your bees south. No expensive packages or queen purchases required.
One of the keys to commercial success is to think like a commercial and to take your advice from those who actually live the business. Beesource is a fun place to interact just remember the vast majority who post on here aren't making their living from their bees. You will be told by many to leave 60+ lbs. of honey per hive on your bees. Corn syrup is .25 per lb. and honey is over $2.00. Do the math. You will be told by many that losses for tf beekeepers are about the same as those who treat. Just follow the example of the vast majority of successful professional beekeepers but remember that it's imminently possible to treat your hives and to do so responsibly. You will be told that "the bees are dying" and that what you are doing isn't sustainable. Take your cues from those who are doing it not from those who are reading about it.  
We run a 5,000+ hive operation and annual per hive expenses run around $100 and the potential per hive income is.....well......back up and re-read Sheri's post. With any business venture comes risk and with risk comes reward.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Wise words Jim. :thumbsup:


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

CWoods, what is the name of the commercial operation that you worked for?


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## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> If you don't have what it takes to percervere already w/in yourself no amount of inspiration from others will keep you going. And if you are determined to support yourself and your family by beekeeping you will have to figure that out yourself by doing it and figuring out what fits best for you under your own circumstances.
> 
> If you don't already have a business background get the basics down well by attending some classes somewhere so you can keep track of the money and the business of beekeeping. You probably already know enough about keeping bees to be successful at that. But are you good a business?
> 
> Best wishes.


Painful but truthful highly inspired advice; just priceless!


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

Ian said:


> your right in a way WLC. Any time you factor debt out over an extended period of time, that commitment has to be made, regardless of circumstances. One advantage with beekeeping is it is a business that is easy to get into, but the business holds very little equity to leverage on, unlike cattle or grain land. If anyone does not believe me, go talk to your banker and ask how much money he will lend you against your bees hive stock.


Let me just tell all of you, after all the fees, insurance and high interest rate the bank wanted to tack on to the loan, I decided it would be cheaper to use my credit cards if I needed to bridge the gap! No debt is best of course.


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## CWoods (Apr 5, 2014)

Thanks all for your comments! 
It is awesome to read the information and sort through it all. As for my business skills....they are yet to be had. That is why I am starting from the ground up. My plan is to start reinvesting all of my profits this year (instead of keeping them for myself) to increase in number of hives. 
I am sure yall haven't heard of the guy I worked for. He had +-350 hives and sold all of it locally. I really respect him though. 
I love what Jim Lyon said about no risk...no reward. 
You guys are awesome. Thanks for yalls advise. There really isn't anything that anyone could say that would deter me from trying to be a commercial beekeeper. I just like positive advise and thinking.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Well if you love the no risk no reward words then I think you should borrow all the money that you can and get as big as you can as fast as you can. If I were you I would strive for 1000 hives to start off and go from there.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

CW:

While most would say it's no big deal to reinvest everything the first year, especially when there's only a small number of hives involved, I would urge caution.

It takes a lot of discipline to pay expenses, grow, and assure yourself of a 'take home' net.

You want to get into that mindset from day one.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Haraga said:


> Well if you love the no risk no reward words then I think you should borrow all the money that you can and get as big as you can as fast as you can. If I were you I would strive for 1000 hives to start off and go from there.


ha ha


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Plenty of folks have used FSA loans to get things started.

However, I would choose a far more manageable starting number of colonies.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

CWoods said:


> Thanks all for your comments!
> It is awesome to read the information and sort through it all. As for my business skills....they are yet to be had. That is why I am starting from the ground up. My plan is to start reinvesting all of my profits this year (instead of keeping them for myself) to increase in number of hives.
> I am sure yall haven't heard of the guy I worked for. He had +-350 hives and sold all of it locally. I really respect him though.
> I love what Jim Lyon said about no risk...no reward.
> You guys are awesome. Thanks for yalls advise. There really isn't anything that anyone could say that would deter me from trying to be a commercial beekeeper. I just like positive advise and thinking.


He wasn't from Andrews, was he? Or Shooting Creek, near Murphy?


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## CWoods (Apr 5, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> He wasn't from Andrews, was he? Or Shooting Creek, near Murphy?


Actually yes he was. There is another outfit in Andrews. But he was mainly in Hiawasee. You familiar with this area???

WLC- I was actually thinking about doing a FSA loan to start with about 50 hives and go from there. My main goal is to pay the loan off....then start _some_ take home from there as I grow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

CWoods said:


> Actually yes he was. There is another outfit in Andrews. But he was mainly in Hiawasee. You familiar with this area???


Yeah, my wife and I were married on the SJ Garnet Farm just outside of Andrews back in 1976. We lived there a cpl years prior to that and had a Marble Post Office Box. Before that I worked and lived in


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

CW:

Sounds reasonable. Although I might add that you should sell any increases and honey, then sell some more bees to drop that starting number even lower. You don't just want to pay back the loan. You want to hold on to assets AND have operating money.

Then you repeat the process.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

Lots of bee outfits have been sold on contract. Work for a seasoned beekeeper for a few years. After you know the ins and outs he will set you up. No bank for anything except an operating loan.


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## CWoods (Apr 5, 2014)

Good call WLC 

I am going to have to have some experience wintering my own hives through winter before I feel confident in selling bees. 

Don't you have to be state inspected to sell bees? Does anyone have a link/info on qualifications to sell bees?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

CWoods said:


> .
> 
> Don't you have to be state inspected to sell bees? Does anyone have a link/info on qualifications to sell bees?


In NC if you sell above a certain number you have to be inspected and pay a $25 fee.
I believe the number is fairly low... about 10. You can find the NCbeekeepers.org site with a link under Local Associations. All the skinny is there.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

CWoods said:


> I finished working for a commercial guy this past year and this year I am on my own.


Did you work the journals, the ledgers, and the financial statements? That part of the business is at least as critical as knowing how to assess the needs of a yard full of hives.

I used to do what I called "train wreck accounting". I would go into to a business and set up or clean up their books for them, and in many cases transition them from manual systems to computerized systems. These were typically small businesses owned by guys who took off on their own after becoming very good at whatever their particular skill or interest was. 

Almost always, the story played out the same. Guy gets a job as a laborer with a construction company, works up to carpenter, then foreman, then decides he can do better on his own. Starts his own company and immediately forgets that he's no longer a carpenter, he's a manager. A businessman (or woman). 

He can't keep the books, and can't tell if the cute little thing he hired to keep them for him is doing it correctly. Sooner than later he can't make payroll even though the work seems to be coming in and things start to tumble. 

I saw it over and over. People who were really good at something but had no clue about the back room where the money got counted and the bills got paid. Don't kid yourself into thinking that you can buy a copy of Quickbooks and plunk it on your laptop and call it good. You have to really understand the debits and the credits and what they mean. You have to be able to read and interpret financials if you want to know how your business is doing, just like you have to be able to pop a cover off of a hive and read the bees and the comb in order to tell how that colony is doing. I'll never forget getting a guy set up who had built 5 nice big homes each year for over 15 years. He did ok, but knew something wasn't right. After I got a nice job cost system up and running he was able to see that of the 5 homes he finished each year, three lost money, and the other two models carried him. He dropped the losers and almost immediately tripled his net.

By contrast, I've also seen people who were only mediocre at what they did who were able to prosper because they knew where every penny came from and where it went and why. They could spot trouble before it became fatal and adjust. 

Go for it, and good luck. Just keep in mind you're transitioning from a beekeeper to a business manager.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Thats a nice write up about financials Barry. Speaking of quickbooks, that is the system my wife wants to use. I would prefer just writing my own database/software to track all the costs and setup my own trend analysis with it, but she would rather I concentrate on the bees.

Only thing I have to say is those pretty little things generally dont have a clue about financials but are fun to look at and can enter the data into the system somewhat accurately. Not hardly worth their pay.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

babybee said:


> Lots of bee outfits have been sold on contract. Work for a seasoned beekeeper for a few years.


I also know many beekeepers who have bought out 1000 and 2000 hive operations. They were able to keep their bees alive and that is why they are still in business today


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> I also know many beekeepers who have bought out 1000 and 2000 hive operations. They were able to keep their bees alive and that is why they are still in business today


Agreed. Many commercials I know, first got the necessary experience then took the plunge by purchasing smaller commercial turnkey operations.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Cwoods, if you can keep your bees alive, everything else will follow. The trick is when you start looking after hundreds and thousands of hives, the proper attention needs to be put towards each colony, and thats the rub. When your time starts to get stretched, things get overlooked, work starts getting behind and the hives may suffer. Manage that work load, there are many ways of achieving this.
To find that magic number of hives a beekeeper can comfortably care for is best to find gradually over time. Take 5 years to build to 1000 hives, rather than buying 2000 hives and end up with 1000...


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

yea you cant be successful unless you have quick-books and good ledgers. The business thing is the last thing you need to worry about.
That will come when it needs to because it has to.

Keeping bees alive is good advice but not going to make much money with out good bee yards and big bees when they need to be.
Making this 80-100 lb average is not easily attained.

Good intuition is important.
Experience and knowledge gives you confidence, also very important. 

i dont even have a printer that works


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'll have to agree with Barry Digman, I've seen many people in many fields who were good at what they do, but not good at running a business. The two are different skills. It's true you probably won't succeed at running your own mechanic shop (or beekeeping operation) if you aren't good at what you do, but it takes more than that. I've seen many Medical Doctors who got out of med school assuming they knew how to run a medical practice. But to learn that you'd have to study business, not medicine... and they often go broke, not because they aren't good doctors but because they assumed that because they were "smart" they knew how to run a business...


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

That maybe true, but commercial beekeeping is not comparable to any of those things, as a matter a fact its so unique i wouldn't compare it to any other business.
How would Barry Know? Is he a commercial bee keeper?

We are not running practices or doing customer service. We are knees in the dirt head in the beehive. over and over and over again.
but you can get really good at math being a commercial beekeeper.
Mechanical aptitude is first in line next to understanding bees to bee successful.

I have almost 4000 hives and one crappy notebook.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> not because they aren't good doctors but because they assumed that because they were "smart" they knew how to run a business...


Just because someone has a PhD doesn't mean they are any smarter/intelligent than a high school graduate. It just means they have gone thru an education system and endured its nuiances until they graduated. I have seen PhD holders who are utterally lost, as well as High School drop outs who built a business with their hands and made millions from it. 

With that stated, I do feel accounting is important for a successful business. Then again so isnt market analysis, product research, and excellent marketing skills.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

MNbees said:


> We are not running practices or doing customer service. We are knees in the dirt head in the beehive. over and over and over again.
> but you can get really good at math being a commercial beekeeper.
> Mechanical aptitude is first in line next to understanding bees to bee successful.
> I have almost 4000 hives and one crappy notebook.


 We do provide services. We offer pollination services, some offer bee removal services as well. We do offer both products and services, even if much of the record keeping is done with clumps of dirt on lids, or sharpie markings on the lids and a crappy notebook.

Mechanical aptitude is pretty important too. It sucks when your alternator craps out at 6am on a Sunday and you have a load of bees on the back.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Just because someone has a PhD doesn't mean they are any smarter/intelligent than a high school graduate. 

I absolutely agree, but they always think they are and Doctors are often the worst. Or any smarter than a guy like Dave Thomas of Wendy's who only had a fourth grade education (never even got to high school) and started a multimillion dollar business. Sometimes I think it forces you to make the better decision when you don't have a degree to mislead into complacency...


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Just got a new Alternator for my diesel bee truck yesterday, only 650 bucks after core and my discount, regular price 942.00 +tx and core and shipping .. Costs never stop coming and that is life, nothing ever goes the way you want it to, that is all part of being in business for yourself. You must factor big repairs in an annual budget in your business and I am realizing those cost now :/ 



BMAC said:


> We do provide services. We offer pollination services, some offer bee removal services as well. We do offer both products and services, even if much of the record keeping is done with clumps of dirt on lids, or sharpie markings on the lids and a crappy notebook.
> 
> Mechanical aptitude is pretty important too. It sucks when your alternator craps out at 6am on a Sunday and you have a load of bees on the back.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Yeah, my wife and I were married on the SJ Garnet Farm just outside of Andrews back in 1976. We lived there a cpl years prior to that and had a Marble Post Office Box. Before that I worked and lived in


Brasstown.


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## CWoods (Apr 5, 2014)

Good Call Barry Digman! 
I really appreciate these comments. Just so yall know, I do have a college education. The commercial guy I worked for did not....haha kinda funny. But I do think accounting (no matter how basic it may be) is the mortar between the bricks. 
Thanks again yall
Just curious, do yall build your own hives to save money? The hives out of the catalog seem pricey.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

I have an agreement with my accountant. She doesn't keep bees and I don't keep books. It works out just fine. I always know when I'm out of money because the bank will send a letter every time.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

CWoods said:


> Just curious, do yall build your own hives to save money? The hives out of the catalog seem pricey.


Some make their own, others shop around And buy massive quantities at a time to get volume discount. Then there are shops that dont specialize in beekeeping items that make boxes and such. Around me there are a few different Amish woodworkers that will make a box for about 1/2 what it would cost from one of the big companies.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I think, if you are large enough to make a living, it will not pay to be a woodworker. More time with the bees less time in the shop.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

CWoods said:


> Just curious, do yall build your own hives to save money? The hives out of the catalog seem pricey.


No. Quality would suffer and I believe in doing what I do best (whatever that is) and pay for the rest. Unless you have the woodshop equipment and the time is there really much savings.

I look on it like I do queens. When I need queens I don't have the time, skill, and knowledge to grow my own, so I buy them from someone who does have the time, skill, and knowledge.

That said, since you asked the question, you might have to try it yourself in order to figure out whether it fits your program.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

If starting with just 50 hives, you will have so much time on your hands you may as well do some wood working. Who needs six and a half days off a week? Hahaha


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I build my own hive boxes, but I only have 130 hives at the moment and will have 200+ at the end of this season. I do it in the winter months and it is very very time consuming and cold!!! There is no heat in the building I work in and sometimes it is hard to get good dry lumber when you want it, stocking a lot of lumber stick piled is sometimes a challenge too because I find it wants to turn into soup bowls and any knots will pop out and then you are losing money on damaged material. I also build all my pallets and covers.
I don't think it is worth the extra time spent if you could afford to purchase it with a cash flow that you have, buy what you need and use it . I personally don't have the money to buy all of my own stuff yet .




CWoods said:


> Good Call Barry Digman!
> I really appreciate these comments. Just so yall know, I do have a college education. The commercial guy I worked for did not....haha kinda funny. But I do think accounting (no matter how basic it may be) is the mortar between the bricks.
> Thanks again yall
> Just curious, do yall build your own hives to save money? The hives out of the catalog seem pricey.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

CWoods said:


> Good Call Barry Digman!
> Just curious, do yall build your own hives to save money? The hives out of the catalog seem pricey.


Unless you love doing it I would not look at it as saving money. Supers and frames are so inexpensive in realtive terms. You are trading time for some savings but unless you have a really nice workshop with expensive tooling, a cheap supply of lumber(that is dried and straight), skills and patience you will regret building your own stuff. Especially as you grow to commercial level. Equipment that is EXACTLY interchangeable becomes so important. I worked for my dad and he didn't see this and it was chaos. I would buy the equipment as save the time for more important endeavors. The tendency with home built equipment is to keep it no matter what because you have invested time in it. If my purchased stuff has a problem I ship it back and don't waste any time on it. Just my opinion.


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## Makin' Honey (Sep 13, 2010)

Hey CWood, My personal experience has directed the path I am on now. I grew up in a large family migratory bee business, Dad running 5,000 hives of bees in Nebraska/Texas. When I was brilliant at the age of 25 Dad was not running his business like I thought he should. So, I left him moved to GA and started my own bee business with 1,500 hives of bees all on borrowed money (trucks, extractors, uncapper, forklifts, etc.). Somehow ‘my way’ of running bees caused me to go broke and broker and busted over the course of 12 years. It took my wife and I fifteen years to dig out of debt. What did I learn? 1. I was not a good manager. 2. Don’t fix it if it isn’t broken Dad’s way worked fine). And biggest of all I was only making bulk honey for my income. That was turned upside down in 1992 when the Chinese dumped 29 cent honey into America. Interesting my Dad ran bees right on till he was 72 while I had to take an hourly job. I am now coming back completely debt free, I refuse to borrow even one dime. My wife went to college in finance and is my built in money manager. I am building a bee business with three sources of income. Honey in still number one because I love working bees to make honey. Three years ago I added in making 5 frame nucs for sale, not as easy as some folks make it out to be. And next year or two I will add in pollination. 2011 I was running 30 hives, 2012 split to 60 hives for me and sold nucs, 2013 split to 120 hives and doubled nucs sold. This year split to 240 hives for me and will sell less nucs. I am using almost all used beehive equipment, used extracting equipment and an old truck that should be replaced. This year will be the hard to keep my hourly job and run the bees to three honey crops (south GA, north GA and NC sourwood). Next year I will have to decide if I leave my hourly job. Just my experience, i'm glad if it helps.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Hmmm. This machine could change the balance of the buy/build equation for the folks who are replacing hundreds of boxes at a time. It's pretty slick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSLbZ22So1A


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Makin' Honey said:


> Hey CWood, My personal experience has directed the path I am on now. I grew up in a large family migratory bee business, Dad running 5,000 hives of bees in Nebraska/Texas. When I was brilliant at the age of 25 Dad was not running his business like I thought he should. So, I left him moved to GA and started my own bee business with 1,500 hives of bees all on borrowed money (trucks, extractors, uncapper, forklifts, etc.). Somehow ‘my way’ of running bees caused me to go broke and broker and busted over the course of 12 years. It took my wife and I fifteen years to dig out of debt. What did I learn? 1. I was not a good manager. 2. Don’t fix it if it isn’t broken Dad’s way worked fine). And biggest of all I was only making bulk honey for my income. That was turned upside down in 1992 when the Chinese dumped 29 cent honey into America. Interesting my Dad ran bees right on till he was 72 while I had to take an hourly job. I am now coming back completely debt free, I refuse to borrow even one dime. My wife went to college in finance and is my built in money manager. I am building a bee business with three sources of income. Honey in still number one because I love working bees to make honey. Three years ago I added in making 5 frame nucs for sale, not as easy as some folks make it out to be. And next year or two I will add in pollination. 2011 I was running 30 hives, 2012 split to 60 hives for me and sold nucs, 2013 split to 120 hives and doubled nucs sold. This year split to 240 hives for me and will sell less nucs. I am using almost all used beehive equipment, used extracting equipment and an old truck that should be replaced. This year will be the hard to keep my hourly job and run the bees to three honey crops (south GA, north GA and NC sourwood). Next year I will have to decide if I leave my hourly job. Just my experience, i'm glad if it helps.


There is no reality quite like a first hand testimonial. Your honesty is refreshing. Your reminding (or educating) folks about the Chinese honey dumping is right on the mark. It's a big part of the reason I find amusement in hearing how difficult it is, currently, to make a living in the bee business. I can clearly remember just hoping I could find a buyer for our honey at anything resembling a break even price. Virtually the only talk at bee meetings in those years was trying to get the federal government to institute (or retain) price supports. Just 10 years ago almond pollination was bringing around $40 and I was thrilled at the notion that it could help pay some of our spring startup costs. Guess you can't appreciate the good times until you have experienced the bad ones.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

I moved the discussion re border issues to it's own thread, in the commercial forum.
Sheri


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## Makin' Honey (Sep 13, 2010)

Mr. Woods, IMO going into beekeeping for your living is not something you ‘jump’ into. You need to grow into it which will take years not months. Many of the posts here have stated it over and over you need to work with someone already in the business and in the area you want to keep bees in. Excellent advice! Learning beekeeping with today’s set of problems is hard enough with help. Trying to learn beekeeping right by your self is probably impossible. I have a question, do YOU have a love for honeybees? If you don’t just stay out, this advice is not to be cruel it’s just what it takes to have a chance to make it. If all you see are the dollars mark it down you will not make it in beekeeping. Yes there is money to be made in beekeeping or a thousand folks would not be doing it now. But there will be years that something is going to happen and you will make nothing. Maybe you didn’t get the last sentence, some years you will make NOTHING. Without the love of bees you will not have the fortitude to punt and work toward the next season, you will just leave the game. Beekeeping is agriculture so we are subject to; too much rain, too little rain, early freezes, late freezes, too hot, too cool, mites, viruses and a boat load of other things. Now on the other side it is a great way to live, you are close to nature, you are not stuck in a dead end job, it is a great business for the entire family to work together, you get to know lots of other good folks and you will learn what an honest day’s work is all about.


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## Makin' Honey (Sep 13, 2010)

jim lyon said:


> Guess you can't appreciate the good times until you have experienced the bad ones.


 Experiencing contrast is a good teacher.


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## Ray Bayless (Sep 1, 2010)

I know I'm not the original poster but I'd like to say thanks for the answers. Good advice.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

CWoods said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I finished working for a commercial guy this past year and this year I am on my own.
> 
> ...


If someone has been running a bee business as their only financial source for some years then there is enough money in it for them to manage.


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

When I went for my interview to become a special agent, the agent-in-charge asked me what my college major was. When I told him criminal justice, he about spit his coffee out. He told me to change it to a business related field because our agency had lots of great investigators and produced many fantastic people who were great at investigating, but made lousy managers. So I did. it is probably the only time I took some advice. I changed my degree to Accounting and obtained a BBA. Best decision I ever made. I cant tell you how much I use what I learned every day. Of course, as soon as HQ learned I had an accounting degree they took me off of rape, robbery and murder and put me in a fraud unit. That was about as funny as a screen door on a submarine, but a story for another time.


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