# How many bees should be in a mating nuc?



## BEES4U

Big mistake!
You need to make the bees that are to stock the nuc queen lees for at least overnight, stock the nuc, *and insert the ripe queen cell,*.
Did you fill the inside feeder so that the bees can draw out foundation and get use to their new queen/
Be sure that the nuc is located in a cool dark location for at least 3 days then put it out in it's location towards dusk and open the entrance.
Ernie


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## fatscher

Ernie, I stocked the mating nuc a lot further in advance than over nite. I stocked the nuc 48 hours before inserting the queen cell.

Go look at Mann Lake's site and see the styrofoam double mating nucs for sale there. I'm not sure I'm very warm to them. The frames I use are baby nuc frames the depth of a medium but the length of about 7-8 inches. They are drawn out using a builder box. Each builder box holds 10 frames, and I have two builder box that, when set side-by-side, have the same total area as the 10 frame box below. I feed the hive with the builder boxes on, the hive draws out comb on the baby frames, then I transfer the frames into the nucs...EXCEPT I forgot to do the math. I'm drawing out 20 frames, right? Well, I have 8 mating nucs at 3 frames each = 24 frames...:doh:

Yes, I used the inside feeder. I think the next time I need to force the queen to lay in frames while they're in the builder box. Then when these bees emerge they'll adopt the mating nuc as "home". As it was, I just bought these baby mating nucs last month, hardly enough time to get them drawn out.

I here ya, you're re-telling me everything my heart said was wrong. I'm learning still...so what's the answer to my question? How many bees should be there in the mating nuc with a queen?


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## RayMarler

I would say you need at least a pound of nurse bees or more for the queen when she hatches, but I've never used mini mating nucs myself though, maybe you can do less in those? Someone else will have to answer that for ya.

Your idea of having the queen in the box that is drawing out your mini frames for you, if she lays in those frames and you wait 'till the eggs are hatching so that you have open larva, then nurse bees will stay with the frames when you move them to the mating nucs.


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## beedeetee

Well I an no expert at all since this is also my first attempt at raising my own queens, but I have 6 mating nucs and I now have 5 laying queens in them. These hives range from being packed with bees to one frame (normal deep frame) moderately covered with bees. I don't have any with as few as 50-100 though so I can't tell you if that will work.

According to queen calendars I am supposed to start looking for eggs tomorrow, but they all had eggs last Wednesday so they didn't waste any time mating and then starting to lay. I don't know if I have enough bees to raise much capped brood, so I am wating to see what happens with that in the nucs without many bees. I do have a lot of eggs though. Sometimes 10 per cell.


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## stangardener

i've been to two queen breeders that use a spam can of bees to stock a mini mating nuc.
myself i use at least two frames one brood one stores and enough bees to cover the brood.


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## gmcharlie

my comment would have be that brushing them is not the right method....

I use frames from a hive and take teh bees with it... they are not disturbed, I get drawn comb and whatever stores I like (brood or food) and young bees stil on frames they know....

Works well for me, usualy end up with around 1000-1500 in the mateing nuc


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## jdpro5010

If you are using the mini mating nucs you can't just transfer frames with bees on them.:doh: I have always been told to take a 20 oz. pop bottle and cut the top off. Fill the pop bottle with bees and add to the nuc. You can add the queen cell at the same time when first starting. Then confine the bees for 2-3 days to keep them from abscounding. I don't think just 50 bees will be enough, but hey its beekeeping so lets wait and see!


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## gmcharlie

true, Another reason for not useing minni nucs..!.... (actualy missed the word mini in the first reading....


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## jdpro5010

I figured you missed it. I actually am in the process of using both styles. Mainly because I am in the playing stage of my beekeeping career.


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## BEES4U

Saturday, July 25, 2009
Go look at Mann Lake's site and see the Styrofoam double mating nucs for sale there.
I have them in production and they work fine!
The smaller the nuc the less productive they are.
The larger the nuc the more productive they are.
I enjoy working with my 5 frame nucs because the frames are interchangeable with any of my full depth hives.
However, they are more expensive to stock. They can draw out frames in a honey flow too.
The Mini nucs might abscond when the weather warms up to the high 80's, F.
Once you have eggs, larvae and sealed brood it's easier to make up the nucs.
Ernie


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## fatscher

BEES4U said:


> Saturday, July 25, 2009
> I have them (_Mann Lake's Styrofoam double mating nucs_) in production and they work fine!
> The smaller the nuc the less productive they are.
> The larger the nuc the more productive they are.
> 
> ...The Mini nucs might abscond when the weather warms up to the high 80's, F.
> Ernie


Interesting observations, Ernie. Makes sense, although I was not aware of the absconding tendencies. Thanks for those info-shares.



beedeetee said:


> Well I an no expert at all since this is also my first attempt at raising my own queens, but I have 6 mating nucs and I now have 5 laying queens in them.
> 
> ...I do have a lot of eggs though. Sometimes 10 per cell.


B.D.T., I'm thinking that you might have laying workers if you're seeing 10 eggs per cell. Might want to examine that mating nuc a little closer.



jdpro5010 said:


> If you are using the mini mating nucs you can't just transfer frames with bees on them.:doh: I have always been told to take a 20 oz. pop bottle and cut the top off. Fill the pop bottle with bees and add to the nuc. You can add the queen cell at the same time when first starting. Then confine the bees for 2-3 days to keep them from abscounding. I don't think just 50 bees will be enough, but hey its beekeeping so lets wait and see!


Adding the queen cell when first starting, eh? I actually thought about doing this, but decided against it thinking they might rip the cell down (weren't fully cleansed of their old queen's pheromone). I have an update to give, and will do that the next post!


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## fatscher

jdpro5010 said:


> I don't think just 50 bees will be enough, but hey its beekeeping so lets wait and see!


Well, everyone, sometimes it's just plain better to be lucky than good!!!!!

14 days after grafting (2-3 days after queen emerged) today I went in each mating nuc to retreive the empty cocoons, or not so empty cocoons if the queens did not make it (due to the low amount of bees).

Well, glory, halleluiah...what do you know??? Of 8 mating nucs, all 8 queen cells are empty. Of course there might be a remote chance the bees destroyed the queens in the cells, maybe? Hopefully not---thinking glass half full here.

We're definitely not out of the woods yet, praying mantises love fat juicy queens returning from a mating flight, and dragonflies love catching and eating fat juicy queens out on their mating flight.

Will update everyone on Aug 8th when mating flights have ended and the queen will have been laying for 2-3 days already.


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## beedeetee

fatscher said:


> B.D.T., I'm thinking that you might have laying workers if you're seeing 10 eggs per cell. Might want to examine that mating nuc a little closer.


Well, the mating nuc has only been made up 2 weeks today. There were eggs in the bottom of all of the cells. Just some on the rims, sides and other places. I saw the queen dragging an egg around. Today everything seemed to calm down and many cells have just one egg. She seemed busy laying. She is now marked and in a cage.


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## danno1800

*be sure to confine them where it's cool & dark*

for at least 24 hours -- this should settle them down. After you get these mini-nucs drawn out, it becomes a LOT easier. I hold bees in them while I feed them to get them to draw out the comb. I put a queen pheremone strip in to keep them settled down while they draw it out. Just a cupful of nurse bees to start out. Good luck! -Danno


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## BEES4U

praying mantises 
The last time that I saw one was in the uncutivated land outside Bakersfield about 20 years ago.
I have never seen one in southern California to date.
Barn swallows will feast on bees.
Regards,
Ernie


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## fatscher

danno1800 said:


> ...I put a queen pheremone strip in to keep them settled down while they draw it out. Just a cupful of nurse bees to start out. Good luck! -Danno


Hmmm, didn't think about that one. Thanks for that tip!


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## JohnK and Sheri

When we used the mini mating nucs we started with only a cupful of bees, that few worked OK, but not as well as a regular 5 or 4 frame deep nuc. The minis are a joy to work, absolutely non defensive and so easy to pick the queens. The 5 framers are a little harder to find and pick the queens but we have a better overall take on them. A happy compromise is the 3 frame medium nucs we used the last couple years. Easy to stock initially with brood, holding the nurse bees. They are easy to work because the frames are lighter plus the queens are easy to find being only three frames. I assume mini nucs with a tiny population, while they could raise a queen, might have a problem with hive beetles. Not an issue in our Wisconsin mating yards yet, but maybe would be in VA.
Sheri


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## fatscher

JohnK and Sheri said:


> ...A happy compromise is the 3 frame medium nucs we used the last couple years. Easy to stock initially with brood, holding the nurse bees. They are easy to work because the frames are lighter plus the queens are easy to find being only three frames. Sheri


Wow, had not thought of that. How do you make a 3 frame nuc? Do you use the Brushy Mountain medium queen castle for that? It is 3 three-frame units in one medium body.

I like the number of frames (3), yet the small size of medium frames for manipulation and handling. Like that idea very very much. May order 2 of the medium size BM queen castles.


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## beedeetee

I took a box (before I put it together) and used a router to cut 2 grooves for 1/4 plywood dividers. I used a 5/8" plywood base that I screwed on and then changed my mind and unscrewed. I put risers on the edges of the plywood base to keep the base of the frames off of the bottom.

I cut three pieces of 1" boards that I had around for the inner cover for each of the three sections. That way I can open one at a time. I put a telescoping lid on top to hold everything down.

I drilled holes near the bottom on three sides for each section and I drilled other holes near the top and stapled window screen over them for vents.

Worked for me. Only had to buy (or have an extra) the lid and box. Everything else was just scrap boards. Since I didn't fasten the bottom to the box, I can still use the box (with grooves) like any other box. The lid works for any lid.


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## JohnK and Sheri

John makes the nucs out of whatever scrap wood we have around. In Wisconsin waxed cheese boards works well, don't even need paint. He makes them wide enough to initially accomodate a feeder in place of a frame. We put 4 on a pallet, facing away from each other. When we finish up we can transfer each nuc into a full size medium brood chamber on the same pallet. Put a deep on top and you have yourself a colony for California.


Using a medium box with 3 chambers should work too. We like the separate boxes because we can pick one up and take it to an out yard, plus I think there may be less drifting if they are in separate boxes.


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## fatscher

beedeetee said:


> ...I put risers on the edges of the plywood base to keep the base of the frames off of the bottom....



BDT, I think I follow, all except for one small detail. I didn't read where you describe how you keep your bees from mixing underneath each of your divider boards, unless your dividers already extend to the bottom of the bottom board.


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## fatscher

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Using a medium box with 3 chambers should work too. We like the separate boxes because we can pick one up and take it to an out yard, plus I think there may be less drifting if they are in separate boxes.


I follow ya, I wondered if you used individual boxes or divided mediums. You answered my question, and that's a smart approach.

Talking about hives for California makes me think you good folks are in the pollination business?


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## JohnK and Sheri

fatscher said:


> Talking about hives for California makes me think you good folks are in the pollination business?


We are primarily honey producers here in Wisconsin. The only pollination we do (or at least get paid for  ) is California almonds. Wintering in California also has the advantage of giving the bees a head start they wouldn't get if wintering in Wisconsin.

Sheri


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## beedeetee

fatscher said:


> BDT, I think I follow, all except for one small detail. I didn't read where you describe how you keep your bees from mixing underneath each of your divider boards, unless your dividers already extend to the bottom of the bottom board.


Good point. You can either cut the dividers deep enough to reach to the bottom, so they are as deep as the box plus the riser or attach risers to the base so that the dividers slide down flush with them. This is actually what I did. I didn't need to notch the risers that way.

If you cut a third groove right down the middle of the box and cut your dividers long enough you can use the same box as two 5 frames nucs though if you don't use risers under the dividers. This is what I might do, but I will need a different base and divider.


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## BEES4U

I used a router to cut the groves for the divider before the brood chamber/hive body was assembled.
Then I cut a 1/4" plywodd divider that is flush with the underside of the cover.
You can use aan old feed sack as a gasket placed over the hive dividers and top bars.
I use aluminum foil heating and air conditioning tape placed over the top of the dividers too.
Some people us a piece of canvass to cover the frames and divider.
When you go into the nuc to cage out queens the queen less bees will move over to the queen right nuc quickly unless you have the sack, tape or canvass cover.
I plan on using thick mil plastic for next season because it's easier to use.
My 5 frame nucs are easy to use in the field for several different operations.
Just load the truck with the nucs and add them where they are needed.
If you set the nuc next to where you need it in the yard it makes combining bees easier.
Regards,
Ernie


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## JohnK and Sheri

BEES4U said:


> I plan on using thick mil plastic for next season because it's easier to use.


On our multiple chamber nucs we use cheap vinyl flooring squares. cut to size. It is flexible but strong, holds its shape well and presses down firmly for a good seal.


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## fish_stix

I used to have a bunch of the 10 frame boxes divided into 3 frame nucs. We used the black fiberglass window screen over the top to keep them separated. If you cut 2 pieces just right you can fold it back to work in each nuc without the bees mixing. Sorry, don't remember the measurements but it's easy to figure out.


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## LT

#2 can works for me.


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## Axtmann

I’m raising queens in Apidea mini nucs. ( little 3 frame Styrofoam box)

Because of my bad eyes I cut out a piece of comb with eggs, from the hive I like to breed, 3x3cm (1x1 inch) and mount it on the frames, one for each nuc. Each nuc should have enough food in there back pocket. I give them at least a tennis ball size paste made from ice sugar and honey.
Instead of a piece of comb you can give them a queen cell if you have one.

Now I take a few frames of bees, spray each frame a little bit with water to make the bees wet and push them in a bucked (the are calm and not flying away). After that, I fill each nuc with two full cups of bees. The next step is bringing all nucs at least 3km away to prevent them from flying back to there old home.
They must stay away for at least 4 days … 5 or 6 are even better. After they lost there orientation I take them back to my bee yard.

As soon as the young queen is laying I reduce the entrance so only bees can go in and out. I take the queen out when I need her and the bees start again with a second queen. This works in early summer, but here it is too late in the year to raise a second one. Bees already start killing drones.


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## Countryboy

I believe Tecumseh mentioned once that the old timers in the Texas back country would poke a nail hole in a tin can, and use a string to suspend the can from a branch on a bush. They would dump in a handful of bees, and a virgin queen, and use the cans as mating nucs.


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## Richinbama

Go to YouTube, look up university of gulpth, spelling may be wrong but close. They have a very nice video of mini mating nucs. It's exactly what your looking at doing. And I think the nucs you bought are exactly the same as what they are In video. I'm not sure about link, but someone here probably can do that better for you. Good luck, and follow the video instructions. Very simple to do, and great bee man there. He is the university instructor, and bee manager of excellent program there.1 1/2 cups of bees for those boxes. They make and breed hundreds of these each year, and 4-5 queens from each box a year each box.


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## Richinbama

1 and 1/1 cups of bees to the mini boxes. Univ. Of gulpth I think has an excellent site on this at you tube. Great video, and very thorough info to this nucs you have.


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