# hive box - experimental joint



## bwrx (Feb 25, 2015)

Have been making all of my own hive boxes - 8 frame mediums - and want to experiment with using different joints. Started with finger joints, but they are time consuming and maybe overkill for mediums. Next I made a few boxes with just a simple rabbet joint. But, here's a picture of something I came up with last night. What do you think? My biggest concern is the outside edge breaking off. And then the best way to nail it. I like it because it is fast to make and has quite a bit of surface area for glue. Thoughts/suggestions?
Thanks,
DB


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I like it, for ease and less set up I use just a regular rabbit joint with a 3/4 in bit run across the top for the frame rest and around the sides to attach the long board to. I correct my be space by trimming the bottom of the box. Works great if you are only using your boxes, be space gets a little off if you use them with commercial boxes though.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource!


The joint you show is sometimes used in making furniture drawers, and known as a 'lock rabbet'. One article about lock rabbets: http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/joinery/lock-rabbet-drawer-joints/


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

bwrx said:


> Have been making all of my own hive boxes - 8 frame mediums - and want to experiment with using different joints. Started with finger joints, but they are time consuming and maybe overkill for mediums. Next I made a few boxes with just a simple rabbet joint. But, here's a picture of something I came up with last night. What do you think? My biggest concern is the outside edge breaking off. And then the best way to nail it. I like it because it is fast to make and has quite a bit of surface area for glue. Thoughts/suggestions?
> Thanks,
> DB


Here is a lock miter joint: No end grain when done correctly, but the frame rest on the inside adds a little weakness:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/html/16j7508ie.pdf


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

THE above link is to a 45 degree lock miter. not the same joint.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

the photo was of his joint (quoted) but yes it is a 45 degree lock miter.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

Rabbet Jointhttp://www.table-saw-guide.com/rabbet-joint.html is how I make mine. Simple and uncomplicated. You can get strength from it being 2 sides contact and you can nail/screw/glue. I built my first bee hive with finger joints and never will I do that again. WAY WAY too time consuming. 

I found this way when I was looking up Nuc Boxes. I think it was Dummie Series online that I got the instructions.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's not a bad joint. I like having less end grain exposed, but I'm always concerned when I have a small piece of wood that is only connected by grain running the short way.

I bought this to use for mating nucs etc. but haven't had time to try it yet:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KZM25QA?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage


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## Andrey Limonchenko (Mar 29, 2013)

frustrateddrone said:


> Rabbet Jointhttp://www.table-saw-guide.com/rabbet-joint.html is how I make mine. Simple and uncomplicated. You can get strength from it being 2 sides contact and you can nail/screw/glue. I built my first bee hive with finger joints and never will I do that again. WAY WAY too time consuming.
> 
> I found this way when I was looking up Nuc Boxes. I think it was Dummie Series online that I got the instructions.


This is how I had mine for some time, but I found that just budding it against one another and using screws to hold it also works and perhaps has stronger corners. I would break corners with my hive tool trying to pry the boxes apart.


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## SteveStevenson (Feb 14, 2014)

Buy a Kreg jig and use it to make VERY strong butt joints. Glued with screws is typically stronger than the wood itself


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## bwrx (Feb 25, 2015)

Wow thanks for all the replies. I'll be checking out all of the links. I am definitely interested in trying the 45 degree lock miter. It has a cool factor and that router bit is a lot cheaper than wearing out my dado stack. Never thought about using pocket holes ... would you put the holes on the outside or the inside and let the bees fill them in (probably not) and use wood filler?
Really enjoy building this stuff and having an active group to discuss it with is even better. Thanks everyone.


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## SteveStevenson (Feb 14, 2014)

I put the pocket screws on the inside but just for the looks.


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## SteveStevenson (Feb 14, 2014)

I didn't fill them at all


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

I like Mike's post. Let us know how they turn out.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

The problem with lock miter joint, is you need perfectly flat wood....


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## Knisely (Oct 26, 2013)

follow


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

I use butt joints with Titebond III and 2" exterior grade wood screws and haven't had any problems, plus they are easy for the non-technically minded of us.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

We did a cutout on a column that had them "lock-joints". It was a 100-year-old fraternity house. Imagine a very tall tapered barrel with no hoops. Them lock joints stumped us for quite a while and finally we just butchered the column and put the piece we took out back when finished. For bee hives I just butt joint, glue, and nail or screw. Plan on building many many more at $7 a piece. I'm a framer, not a craftsman like some of you guys.

The guy I got a lot of old stuff from uses a dado and makes a dado on the sides and ends where only a small portion of end grain shows. His stuff holds up amazingly well and I'll probably start doing it his way as soon as I have a table saw with more horsepower. Til them I'm not doing any dados but kind of cheat to make the frame rests by making two cuts with the table saw. Felt like that was a major accomplishment and have to deal with my weak table saw for now.


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## bwrx (Feb 25, 2015)

I've made my rabbet joints by making 2 cuts with a regular saw blade instead of the dado and it takes some time to get setup-with a lot of test cuts to get it right-for me anyway.
Now I'm rethinking the square lock joint. My wood may not be perfectly flat ... I agree with above comments and don't really like the idea of so much end grain showing ... plus with the potential for the little end piece breaking off ... 3 strikes, it's probably out.
There is one thing I didn't mention and doesn't show in the picture because I didn't cut the frame rest yet. There will end up being a little square "hole" in each corner. Am not sure what the bees would do with it. I was kind of hoping they'd trap/herd small hive beetles in there and seal them off ... but I was planning on filling in with a little piece of wood. More steps ... I guess I'm back to the rabbet. Thanks again for all the replies.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

It’s a good joint and very strong. Better than the traditional but joint because the wood has a second glue side for the end grain for glue. It is also why the wood does not chip out on the supported corner. 
If anything it is a better joint for future warping than a butt joint because the board cannot cup in the lock. The end grain is always an issue with glue because the glue sinks in too quickly to the end grain and does not leave enough glue to the joint strength. I will not make comments about the recommendations from Fine Woodworking magazine about painting end grain with a cut glue for a while before hand because it seems to offend some of the older guys on the forum…..
The frame rest is a definite problem. 
The chip out on the sides and the amount of time it takes to make a finger jointed box can both be improved by clamping multiple sides together when you cut them. I like to cut 4 boards at a time. Only the last board (without support) will have the chip out, it keeps the rocking down and I end up with flat bottoms on my dato’s. by using a handmade jig I would think it is almost as fast as doing a rabbit. 
I am on the other side of the spectrum, I build furniture for a hobby.


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

bwrx said:


> Wow thanks for all the replies. I'll be checking out all of the links. I am definitely interested in trying the 45 degree lock miter. It has a cool factor and that router bit is a lot cheaper than wearing out my dado stack. Never thought about using pocket holes ... would you put the holes on the outside or the inside and let the bees fill them in (probably not) and use wood filler?
> Really enjoy building this stuff and having an active group to discuss it with is even better. Thanks everyone.


I just made 12 boxes using a locking miter joint. I'll post some shots after sanding tomorrow. You will need a router table or shaper (I used a shaper) Setting it up is a bit of a PITA but I would put this up against a dovetail joint any day. NO end grain either. Slightly warped wood isnt an issue, I'm not making furniture. I havent used the shaper in a few years but I now have it set and will be making my own boxes from here on. I just tuck it back into its space a pull out when ready to Fab some more. Extremely strong joint. Everything squared up nice when glued and clamped.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

I like that lock mitre bit and put it on my wish list on AMAZON....

At the end of the day thinking about how much an 8 frame medium box of honey weighs and what would happen if one came apart in the heat of battle, I enjoy making my boxes with finger joints, glued with titebondIII and stapled with them 1 1/4" narrow crown staples to make one over-kill bomber hive box.

The INCRA I-box is a fun and accurate tool to make finger joints....

(i can't fix these images within this post)


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## bwrx (Feb 25, 2015)

Thanks for making me feel lazy about trying to find faster and easier joints for my boxes.  If I had a better jig for my finger joints I'd be inclined to make more but my DIY jig was hard to adjust. And I got frustrated with the wood chipping out. Nice work on your boxes!


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

LOL! Thanks! I have been doing the same thing don't worry. I even bought the KREG pocket hole jig kit...It is nice BUT.....even with glue I am not sure if it can withstand the forces of spreading or shifting propolized frames in the box with my frame tool, even with glue? Then I had to deal with the pocekt holes themselves as they are a great place to house SHB. I use the kreg on the feeder shims for my rapid feeders, sugar shims in the winter and the formic acid board described in the WVU abstract. It has taken me many board feet pf lumber to get to a place where making hive boxes is routine for me....but I still mess up like I did last week. ...And with using that narrow crown stapler these boxes with glue are indestructable....I hate harbor fright, but the narrow crown stapler I bought for I think $36 is really well made with nice features....we have a HF here so i didnt futz around with S/H....I keep mentioning the INCRA I-BOX for finger joints, but man once you have this jig, you'll can't wait wo have an excuse to make your hive boxes. The joints come out perfect. I use a 3/4" stacked dado setup and it is fun!


bwrx said:


> Thanks for making me feel lazy about trying to find faster and easier joints for my boxes.  If I had a better jig for my finger joints I'd be inclined to make more but my DIY jig was hard to adjust. And I got frustrated with the wood chipping out. Nice work on your boxes!


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

AAIndigo said:


> I just made 12 boxes using a locking miter joint. I'll post some shots after sanding tomorrow. You will need a router table or shaper (I used a shaper) Setting it up is a bit of a PITA but I would put this up against a dovetail joint any day. NO end grain either. Slightly warped wood isnt an issue, I'm not making furniture. I havent used the shaper in a few years but I now have it set and will be making my own boxes from here on. I just tuck it back into its space a pull out when ready to Fab some more. Extremely strong joint. Everything squared up nice when glued and clamped.



Do you also staple it?


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

bwrx said:


> Thanks for making me feel lazy about trying to find faster and easier joints for my boxes.  If I had a better jig for my finger joints I'd be inclined to make more but my DIY jig was hard to adjust. And I got frustrated with the wood chipping out. Nice work on your boxes!









These are the fume boards I made with the pocket joint for formic acid. with glue and screws it is pretty bomber!







So if yo do a lot of glueing, or even if you don't, this is the best addition to my wood shop since the nail......fancy pants Mayonaise bottle as shown. it will neatly dispense a dollop of glue UPON DEMAND with no drips or clogs and I have been using it for 2 weeks now. It is also pretty good for mayonnaise .


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

>Do you also staple it?
Yes I do. I did a quick glue set-up. Glue/Clamp/Staple. I moved the clamp down the joint 3 time. Started in the middle if the wood had a crown. I love this joint and its easy to use once its set up.

>I got frustrated with the wood chipping out
The locking Miter joints come with a a fair amount of blowout as well but I leave the wood at full width and saw of after the joint is milled.


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## bwrx (Feb 25, 2015)

Have you seen Carl Korschgen's finger joint jig? http://youtu.be/cGRRoFw6lro
I have built his jig for handholds and really like it.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

You can just buy this and be using it in no time. I just posted the first video I found . it is great!


bwrx said:


> Have you seen Carl Korschgen's finger joint jig? http://youtu.be/cGRRoFw6lro
> I have built his jig for handholds and really like it.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

I made this jig that Randy made in his Video..it works very well....there is a jig in the do it yourself section on this forrum with the circular saw that I made but this sled and a diablo blade really makes short work of of handholds.


bwrx said:


> Have you seen Carl Korschgen's finger joint jig? http://youtu.be/cGRRoFw6lro
> I have built his jig for handholds and really like it.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/boxjointback.jpg
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/boxjigfront.jpg
Here is the jig from the ‘build it yourself’ page. It takes longer to pull the scrap for it than to build it.
I like the Incra products but the name is like Nike, it instantly adds $100 to the sale price.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Once you get a box joint jig set up, cutting them isn't a problem and goes pretty fast. Biggest drawback is the initial cost for a GOOD dado set, cheap ones are a source of great frustration. A big table saw is also required if you want to do more than one at a time, mine bogs down -- I've got a 2 hp 120V motor and it's not up to the task. Probably need to direct wire it, too.

The best joint by far is a cross nailed box joint. Screwed may or may not be better, depends on your ability to NOT spin the screw after it seats, if you do on end grain it's not holding as well as a nail does. Rabbet joints are a distant second, and butt joints are a weak third -- both depend on the glue for strength, and glue is only as good as the wood it's attached to. Typical pine used for this stuff isn't a really strong wood, and it doesn't need to be.

Racking strain is the real box killer, and only the box joint has solid wood resisting racking forces. Just the nature of the joint. All the others depend on glue or fasteners, and both will cause the wood to fail on stress transfer and the box will come apart more easily.

Peter


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

The original joint listed imo belongs on drawers where pulling force puts it to work. For my boxes I use a double rabbet joint with tightbond and the hf 2 inch staples. built some nucs with plywood and came out very strong. 
the kreig jig is great for faceframes on a cabiniet. I've used them on a couple cabinet carcasses where they are really just holding the joint together and the glue does the real work. even made treads on stairs and used it to do glue ups......I didn't have 30 clamps. it worked well. 
in the end the drilling and then screwing takes longer then just running a double rabbet so I don't use it. plus those screws are not cheap!
I'm interested in the locking rabbet as well. but i'll be using plywood on mine any idea how well it works on plywood where the grain alternates? I did hear set up was a pain.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

psfred said:


> Once you get a box joint jig set up, cutting them isn't a problem and goes pretty fast. Biggest drawback is the initial cost for a GOOD dado set, cheap ones are a source of great frustration. A big table saw is also required if you want to do more than one at a time, mine bogs down -- I've got a 2 hp 120V motor and it's not up to the task. Probably need to direct wire it, too.
> 
> The best joint by far is a cross nailed box joint. Screwed may or may not be better, depends on your ability to NOT spin the screw after it seats, if you do on end grain it's not holding as well as a nail does. Rabbet joints are a distant second, and butt joints are a weak third -- both depend on the glue for strength, and glue is only as good as the wood it's attached to. Typical pine used for this stuff isn't a really strong wood, and it doesn't need to be.
> 
> ...


This is the best, most logical reasoning on this subject I've seen. I'm always looking for an easier way and haven't been happy with box or rabbet joints. Of course, the green big box lumber doesn't help either.


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

>I'm interested in the locking rabbet as well. but i'll be using plywood on mine any idea how well it works on plywood where the grain alternates? I did hear set up was a pain.>

Not sure how this would work on Plywood. I would thing it would work nice on a cabinet grade Ply but I'm thinking you use CDX. Ill give it a try next time I fire it up and post my findings


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

AAIndigo said:


> >I'm interested in the locking rabbet as well. but i'll be using plywood on mine any idea how well it works on plywood where the grain alternates? I did hear set up was a pain.>
> 
> Not sure how this would work on Plywood. I would thing it would work nice on a cabinet grade Ply but I'm thinking you use CDX. Ill give it a try next time I fire it up and post my findings


no not cdx. I think that would be dangerous. I have AC now and its nice and full like cabinet or birch plywood so something like that. interested if the edges delaminate with the vibration of the bit going through it and plywood layer pieces get ripped up.


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

I wouldnt be to concerned with some ripping. The Pine end grain ripped out some but glued up real solid


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## pihlpet (Nov 3, 2011)

I have made some 45degree lock-miter boxes. 
They are nice to assemble but not as strong as I would like them to be.


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