# What Queen Rearing Kit to buy?



## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

NO Xpert here but I think all of them are about the same opcornne thing to remember is that the parts dont interchange from bran to bran.

There are lots of ways to raise a few queens without the "kit" I have one from "MannLake" but hardly if ever use it I just look for cells the use them in splits.

Good Luck and have FUN


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

With only 8 hives to split, and you want to raise queens with a kit??


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

hey sean, beelieve it or not, I didn't go with a kit, I used a combination "good ole boy" method. so as to save money,( so I thought) and now that I got the hang of it, I probably should have done it the way you are thinking of. I think that brushy mtn offers some free videos on the subject that might give you an idea which system to go with.

Hey myth, you think that's something, my first time trying it was with 2 hives and a nuc.

no better time than right now, heh heh.

enjoy the bees.

Big Bear


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I have the Nicot system sold by Mann Lake and sold under the "Cupularve" name by Better Bee. By next spring, it will likely appear elsewhere.

I like it. It's not the Jenter system but it operates under similar principles. Parts are not exchangeable with Jenter.

I wrote up a plan to using the Nicot. It's free, not exactly perfect, but it's how I use the Mann Lake contraption to raise a few queens. No doubt I'll be making some revisions to it this next spring. I'm hardly the queen rearing expert!

Since writing it and putting it on the web, I have been introduced to raising queens in a queen-right colony that takes a lot of the preparation work out of the process.

http://www.nicot.homestead.com

Even with 8 hives to split, trying your hand at queen rearing is very educational. You'll learn a lot about the bees. 

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Brooklyn (Nov 14, 2009)

I hope to graft next year and use the cloake method.

And you can use the cloake for other things

But again what do I know this will be my second year can't wait

:ws

Brooklyn


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## PeeVee (Dec 10, 2009)

I have 6 hives now and hope to have some left in the Spring 

I have been reading and checking some you tube videos. I'm thinking of trying the method shown by "Fat Bee Man" on his site 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVKLgBgYPok

Plus I will be discussing with local bee keepers what method the are using. Might be some methods work better in different localities.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

None of these require grafting and none require buying anything:

http://bushfarms.com/beesmillermethod.htm
http://bushfarms.com/beeshopkins1886.htm
http://bushfarms.com/beeshopkinsmethod.htm
http://bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm
http://bushfarms.com/beesalleymethod.htm
http://bushfarms.com/beesafewgoodqueens.htm


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Why do people dislike grafting so much?


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Let me join the chorus. Don't waste your money with a kit. Just spend $5 on a bag of queen cups and a couple of chinese grafting tools. If you want to splurge get one of the books out there on queen rearing (I like Marla Spivak's book from the university of minnesota) You will learn more, faster, and by the end of the summer if you make a reasonable effort you will be a pro. :applause:


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

HVH
Cause we kant see


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## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

I think everyone should try queen rearing no matter how many hives they have. It is the best way to truly learn and understand bees. I like the Nicot myself. I also do some grafting for fun but they are really hard to see without perfect eyes. I have also heard some people say they were having trouble getting parts for the Jenter. That may cause me to shy away from that brand.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

honeyman46408 said:


> HVH
> Cause we kant see


I've been grafting for years. I find it fits my cell building program better. Well, last year I started having problems with my eyes. Couldn't see the youngest larvae and wound up grafting...basically...puddles of royal jelley.

Now I use jeweler's glasses with an lcd headlamp. Wow!


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I've got some 3X glasses from the dollar store. Without the glasses and an exceptionally good light, I would be in the same boat. With the glasses, I can see well enough to slip the hook easily under the arch of the larvae. My eyes took a dump about 5 years ago and are only getting worse. For me, it is all about the glasses. 
I like the control and simplicity of grafting. I haven't tried the easier methods but generally have found in life that there are great rewards in practicing something more difficult. When I graft, I confine the queen for 48 hours on the frame to be grafted and then get the queen out from under the cage (48 hours in case the queen delays egg laying, I have a second chance at grafting the following day). Since I don't like searching for a queen, I use a nuc for the egg laying but have not found small nucs as good at feeding the hatching larvae. The frame plus cage is moved to a swarm box after 72 hours. This is a little unorthodox, but I have found that a swarm box full of nurse bees will float the larvae in a bunch of royal jelly. The grafting hook slips under the larvae more easily without injury if they are floated a bit off the bottom. Plus a tiny amount of jelly may help to reduce any loss of moisture from the small amount of time needed to get the grafts back into the swarm box. 
I'm not certain if the other systems offer this much flexibility but I am content with the Doolittle method because I know it will accommodate any changes needed.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

HVH said:


> Since I don't like searching for a queen, I use a nuc for the egg laying but have not found small nucs as good at feeding the hatching larvae.


I like using a full size hive body with a vertical queen excluder installed. The queen is confined to 3 combs with no exit to outside. Brood is managed so queen has only 1 comb to lay on...the other 2 are occupied with brood or honey or are undrawn foundaqtion. The comb with oldest brood...getting ready to emerge...is moved to the other side of the excluder and an empty comb is added. That new comb is added on the other side of the excluder the day before so the bees will polish the cells. 

The colony gets quite strong and is packed with nurse bees. Larvae are floating nicely on jelley.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

That approach makes perfect sense. Looking around for a marked queen restricted to three frames would not be too bad especially since the queen will most often be on the frame she has been laying eggs on. 
I have found that during a really good nectar flow one has to be careful to leave plenty of room away from the egg laying area to place nectar, or eggs can all of a sudden be honey. I am going to try even a smaller area for the queen to be confined because I think grafting is easier if all the eggs, of a tightly controlled age, are in the same spot. I use a fiber optic lamp and prefer to not do an egg hunt which just slows down grafting and the time the larvae are exposed to drying. Since I live in the high desert, I am concerned about desiccation of the larvae even though I run a humidifier in the grafting room for hours before grafting. I also use a plant propagation mat to place my grafted cups on while I graft the other bars. The cups are placed cup side down under a damp cloth. Maybe each location requires different tricks to compensate for the elements. I have to say, though, that rearing queens is one of the most rewarding of beekeepers endeavors. It is kind of like tying flies for a fly fisherman or reloading for a hunter. Just doing it yourself and being independent feels really good. 
I have the equipment for instrumental insemination but just can't kick myself hard enough in the head to sit down and mangle the first few queens. I've done really delicate surgeries of new born mice and can't imagine II would be a problem, but starting at the bottom of a learning curve is a slow process. Getting the sterile PBS set up, cleaning the equipment, adjusting the CO2, and collecting the drones, just doesn't seem to ever happen. What I need is another beekeeper in my area that has nothing better to do that waste his time working with me on projects that will never make any money.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

HVH said:


> I am going to try even a smaller area for the queen to be confined because I think grafting is easier if all the eggs, of a tightly controlled age, are in the same spot.


You could use 2 vertical excluders. Only one comb is added to space with queen. Comb goes in outside the excluded space for 1 day to be polished. Then into the excluded space with queen for 1 day for her to lay. Then out of the excluded space and grafted when larvae are corect age. At that time another polished comb is given to the queen for a day. This way, you get larvae to graft every day.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

That would work, but I meant that I want to try reducing my confinement push in cage which is about two thirds of a frame now down to a 3"x5" size. Spivak uses such a cage and I think it would work better than what I have now. Your approach sounds good and seems to be working well in your hands. I may try it for comparison.

Happy Thanksgiving.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

look at picture in link below

The queen is on the 3 frame side the center frame is replaced daily when in the grafting season if possible them is placed on the opposite side of the queen excluder after the queen has laid from time placed in to out time is 12-15 Hours 

For the Grafting Get your bees to build you some new combs on black plasticell let the queen lay in these nice new white combs For You. graft time will be 3.5 days from the time you placed the built comb for her to lay in this way no larva will be over the age of 12 hours take your hive tool and scrape you a small patch off the with of your hive tool then about 3 inches long to expose the larva NOW graft. This will let you get to the larva very easy and seeing them is not much of a problem. Always take you some water and rinse off the area you scraped down and use a small paint brush to help get the unused larva off, then place back in the breeder queen box you can re use this again never let the larva in this spot spin a cocoon or become sealed and you can keep reusing this comb. you need about 4 of these if you want to graft each day



http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g307/vlwbee/Queen%20Rearing/IMG-20101006-00011.jpg[/IMG]


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

You've got an empty spot lacking three frames. Do you run a second queen there or what?
Interesting - thanks for the photo.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

I use the Nicot/cloake board myself. The Nicot has a pretty good video that you can get which will help you. The polishing time of the frame is key. By all means graft, but be aware there is a learning curve. You might also want to pick up a copy of Increase Essentials, by Larry Connor. There are a few invaluable tips there that may serve you well -- one of which is, Strong Hives make Strong Queens. Also consider getting a cloake board.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

HVH said:


> You've got an empty spot lacking three frames. Do you run a second queen there or what?
> Interesting - thanks for the photo.


 
Yes You can have another breeder queen in that end also.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

metrosean said:


> am leaning towards the Jenter kit.


both the Nicot or jenter work fine, and if you want to try grafting, graft out of the kit at the same time, you know then you have the right size lava, have two starters going. that way you will get some queens and see how good your grafting is.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

mythomane said:


> I use the Nicot/cloake board myself. The Nicot has a pretty good video that you can get which will help you. The polishing time of the frame is key. By all means graft, but be aware there is a learning curve. You might also want to pick up a copy of Increase Essentials, by Larry Connor. There are a few invaluable tips there that may serve you well -- one of which is, Strong Hives make Strong Queens. Also consider getting a cloake board.


I wonder if anyone has ever combined the Cloake board concept with a Snelgrove entrance built into the board. It seems that this would eliminate the need for turning the bottom board.


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## metrosean (Jan 10, 2006)

I was so sure that a queen Rearing Kit was the way to go but, after reading all the posts and a couple of you-tube video's, I am going to try my hand at grafting with 3x glasses from the dollar store and one of those 2 dollar Chinese grafting tools. I am also going to follow the methods that Mr. Bush posted from his website. I am still a little confused with the cloake board thing, and are all those queen cell cups from the bee suppy places created equally?
Thanks,

Sean


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Being in a constant state of confusion seems to go with beekeeping.


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## Humanbeeing (Nov 23, 2010)

Having read Lawrence John Conners books, I think about him saying that you only graft what you can't see. Well, I have the over 50 eyesight problem too, so I have decided on the Hopkins method with a Cloake Board.


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

The Connor approach of grafting is the best for me, and I too have that over 50 problem. Try wearing those high power mag glasses like you see in hobby shops, they work great. You might also try making your own cell cups by dipping a water soaked dowel that has been shaped to acceptance. I have made a device where I can dip six at a time and after dipping a few times to build up wax I just twist them off and they are ready to use. 
My Cloake setup is made from a five frame nuc, I have a five frame super on top which I use as my upper Cloake assembly by just adding a custom bottomboard complete with a built in excluder and metal Cloake.
The guys at North American Beehive in Jacksonville made these up for me and they work great. If you are raising your own queens as a hobbiest or sideliner you can produce high quality queens with this method. Don't be afraid of using the 5 frame Cloake, you might be surprised at the success.


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

metrosean said:


> I am going to try my luck at queen rearing next spring. I am wintering over 8 hives and am hoping.....



You could do both:

buy the Nicot system for it's simplicity and 

use a proper grafting tool if you aim versatility.

You won't be disappointed.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

I would like to throw my 2 bits in and say I would also op for the grafting needle and cells, it's much cheaper.

being able to see the larva is not as important as how you transfer it. I'm able to see eggs at the bottom of the cell a whole lot better then the larva i'm grafting. it's not until i get the needle out of the cell and holding it angled to see the gleem of light on there that i can just make out the rings of the ity bity larva. anything that can help improve your sight will be good though, especially if your just starting. Not to mention that grafting is fun, rewarding, and relaxing. i always throw on the classical music and make it an experience.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

so you just plunge the grafting needed in with out trying to get under the larva then pull it out if you got the larva it's all good if not you keep trying

i like seeing the larva while i scoop it up 

I have seen a video where the video where they do it the girl is amazingly fast

What kind of tool do you use


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Velbert said:


> so you just plunge the grafting needed in with out trying to get under the larva then pull it out if you got the larva it's all good if not you keep trying
> 
> i like seeing the larva while i scoop it up
> 
> ...


I don't know if your posting in reply to me velbert, but I use a chinese grafting needle. I do plunge the needle down but I also do get it under the larva. In any case, the colony I set up to take care of the eggs are fed and have young bees added to them so that when the eggs hatch, they feed the larva massively. This makes it easier to graft. believe it or not it's easier to graft the smaller larva than older ones and thats the way it should be anyway, the younger the better.


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