# Best Late Fall Varroa treatment?



## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

NON-EPA: Oxlic acid dribble
EPA: HopGuard


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## Jon B (Apr 24, 2013)

The only mite treatment that I have used in the late fall is Oxlic acid dribble. The fogging method may work as well.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Oxalic vapor will be of little use if the bees are in cluster, Oxalic dribble would then be your best bet because it is dribbled directly on and into the cluster, HopGuard as well as FMGO fogging would not penetrate the cluster either.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

What are you counts?


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## UTvolshype (Nov 26, 2012)

Apivar treatment right now.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

WWW said:


> Oxalic vapor will be of little use if the bees are in cluster,


not if you apply a little smoke.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

WWW said:


> Oxalic vapor will be of little use if the bees are in cluster,


not if you apply a little smoke.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Jon B said:


> The only mite treatment that I have used in the late fall is Oxlic acid dribble. The fogging method may work as well.


OA in both the dribble and vaporization methods work well this time of year. Vaporization is easiest as there is no need to crack the hive. Camer07 is correct, a little smoke will break that cluster for vaporization to work. With little to no brood both dribble and vaporization are very effective.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Perhaps those of you suggesting oxalic acid missed this part of David's original post:


David LaFerney said:


> Specifically I am most interested in what *EPA approved* treatment is most recommended for the late fall broodless period which here is roughly between Thanksgiving and Christmas.


Oxalic acid is not a *registered *miticide in the US. The effectiveness of OA is not the issue here.

From Randy Oliver:


> Both lactic acid and acetic acid have shown some effectiveness in killing varroa, but oxalic has become the organic (carbon-containing) acid of choice. It is approved for, and much used in, a number of European countries, Canada, and New Zealand. *It is not yet registered for use in the United States, *and as such, this article is directed toward our foreign friends, and informational only for U.S. beekeepers. The ABF, headed by Troy Fore, has petitioned the Feds for registration of OA in sugar syrup, based upon research by Marion Ellis, of the University of Nebraska.
> 
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

If they would treat now (not waiting till between Thanksgiving & Christmas) during this mild temperature period ........ MAQS w/b my suggestion.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Ian said:


> What are you counts?


 This isn't really for me - it's for our beekeepers association. Some of them have never treated or counted - some of them are having mite related issued right now - i've been contacted today about it. It's just to help nudge them into making a decision and give them some information to base it on. No doubt in the discussion other beekeepers will chime in with what they use. 

Assuming you had hives that did need treating in late fall, what would you use?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

snl said:


> If they would treat now (not waiting till between Thanksgiving & Christmas) during this mild temperature period ........ MAQS w/b my suggestion.


I don't disagree, and that might be THE way to go - but if you kill a queen this late you're in a bind. Also, formic acid might be hard on the last batch of brood that can be present right now.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Well I suppose it would probably be best to hear from someone with EPA approved treatment experience, I have none to give. I have never heard of smoke opening up the cluster and have no way of seeing that happen so I am probably the wrong one to be giving advice on this thread. So far I have 2 swings and 2 misses so I will regress and let you all with more experience continue with this thread :thumbsup:.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

apivar.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

David LaFerney said:


> Some of them have never treated or counted - some of them are having mite related issued right now
> 
> Assuming you had hives that did need treating in late fall, what would you use?


I did not treat this fall, my spring treatment with Apivar worked very well. Mite counts were well within my threshold

I know this is not what your asking for, but here it is anyway. Tell these guys that they need to monitor and treat before the mites cause the damage, not after. If they are contemplating treatment after they start seeing visual signs of mites in the hive, the hive is likely doomed, so they would be wasting their time.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Actually that is very helpful. Thanks.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>If they are contemplating treatment after they start seeing visual signs of mites in the hive, the hive is likely doomed, so they would be wasting their time. <<

In terms of saving the hive, yes . But also consider that the mites are going to jump on any robber bees that show up and carry those nasty virus loads to other hives. So even though a mite treatment too late will likely just push the crashing hive over the edge, it could save nearby hives.

Also, from a commercial point of view, if any hives in a yard need treatment, all hives get treated at the same time.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

WWW said:


> Oxalic vapor will be of little use if the bees are in cluster


Even tho the question related to approved miticides, just wanted to clear this up. OA vapor will penetrate the cluster and kill mites.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I have just used MAQS myself, I know I'm doing it about a month or so later than I should have, but I did it anyways since I had already purchased the treatments. The temps have been no higher than 70 degrees since I applied it over a week ago, and the nights have been in the 40's. I did not have any negative reaction like bearding, most likely because of the lower temps. Even though I was concerned about queen issues this late, I don't expect there will be any problems there either because of the lower temperature range use. My only concern will be whether or not it helped at all because of the low temps we have been having. Maybe using MAQS in the higher end of the range helps kill more mites because the formic acid is released better, but you also have more negative visible effects on the bees, jmo.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Ian said:


> If they are contemplating treatment after they start seeing visual signs of mites in the hive, the hive is likely doomed, so they would be wasting their time.


Is that your take on only late fall mite issues, or overall?

I heard Mike Palmer explain that he waits until he sees a few DWV bees crawling around, then treats. I have routinely had high mite count hives that showed visible signs of mites (PMS, DWV) that I treated and they made it just fine. Never this late in the year though. I would consider them a gonner at this point in time.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Nothing personal against Mike Palmer, but that sounds like VERY, VERY POOR beekeeping.
Are you sure he said that?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

It was in that vimeo thing. I don't know if that's what he said. But that's what I remember him saying.

The reasoning was that he was building up resistance, and breeding for resistant stock. He noticed over successive years he was treating later and later. At least, again, that's what I remember him saying.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Specialkayme said:


> Is that your take on only late fall mite issues, or overall?


If you wait until you start seeing visible signs of secondary infection from varroa, the hive is pretty sick. So be it late fall, you have a sick hive entering winter. Its not to far of a stretch to suggest that a hive entering winter with high mite loads and visable signs of viral infection probably will not make the winter. 
The take home message is to monitor the mites early in fall so that infections can be controled
if you do it the other way, hives will die


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