# Newbee Question: How do you ensure a virgin mates with a desirable drone?



## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Our beekeepers association here in Prince William County, Virginia just received a Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) grant. Uncle Sam has provided us $15K to learn how to raise our own local queens for our Northern Virginia, Marlyand and So. Delaware fellow beekeepers.

As a new beekeeper, I know there's a lot of learning yet. Raising a queen is tough enough, but how do you all ensure your girl finds the right guy? Does nature curb inbreeding adequately (i.e. if brothers and non-brothers are available does she know to pick the non-kin?)

Is there a special trick you use to ensure genetic diversity? Can't imagine how one could really control queen breeding?

I admit I have not yet read the books on this art. Very ignorant here on the subject. Appreciate any advice, or experiences you can relay.


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

> How do you ensure a virgin mates with a desirable drone?


Instrumental Insemination


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## Black Creek (May 19, 2006)

with out AI, I would think you need as large and diverse group of genetics as you can get. as many other non directly related hives as possible. 

This is only my guess since the only queens i raise are the ones that the hives raise themselves.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is there a special trick you use to ensure genetic diversity?

That is basically the opposite of controlled breeding...

> Can't imagine how one could really control queen breeding?

II.

>I admit I have not yet read the books on this art. Very ignorant here on the subject. Appreciate any advice, or experiences you can relay.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesalleymethod.htm#how_far_to_keep_the_races_apart_to_insure_purity
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshopkins1886.htm#distance
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm#CHAPTER15


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

Luckily, the queen can fly to mating yards (DCA's or Drone Congregation Areas) up to 3 miles away to ensure genetic diversity.

Drones, on the other hand, will only fly up to 2 miles away, or less if they don't have to. DCA's are typically located within 1 mile of the parent hive.

So nature provides it's own safety margin. It's also said that a drone won't mate with a queen from it's own hive and can recognize her from her scent.

But, THE sure fire way to breed in selected drones is artificial insemination. And to me, that'd be a fun way to spend $15 grand!

DS


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## beemanlee (Dec 10, 2005)

*Drone control for breeding your own Queens*



fatscher said:


> Our beekeepers association here in Prince William County, Virginia
> Is there a special trick you use to ensure genetic diversity? Can't imagine how one could really control queen breeding?
> 
> I admit I have not yet read the books on this art. QUOTE]
> ...


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

beemanlee writes:
Second... Select the finest one for the Queens mother.

tecumseh replies:
this does NOT sound like a very good idea to me... this might be fine for honing your queen rearing skills but I would not wish to distrubite genetic material to a wider area when I could have controlled half the genetic material but did not because I desired to save $100. 

the first steps I would take is I would acquire an AI queen mother (some states may require you to use an AI queen if you call yourself a queen breeder) of the flavor that would best suit the area and then I would select local hives (depending on size of the queen yard this number may vary) of exceptional quality for producing drones. a remote location would be best... but I would not depend on location alone and would pursue the idea of saturating the area with selected drone stock.


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## LtlWilli (Mar 11, 2008)

I cannot recall in the short time that I have been into this engaging hobby, ever seeing an add for "select" drones from any vendors...Surely the netting needed to enclose an area would not be that bad, if you consider that it would insure fine breeding, plus the fact that it could be written off as a business expense.......Just the musings of a newbie. If I am wrong, or you just plain disagree please be kind. ....I have felt the sting of a rather snotty response already, and I would be most discouraged to have that type of discourse repeated.
Regards,
Rick~ LtlWilli


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

fatscher,
It may be much to type out. But if you have some time, and 50 cents of that 15k, give me a call sometime, and I'll talk to you about some ideas.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Pray a lot.


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## beemanlee (Dec 10, 2005)

*Our own local Queens, key word; local*



tecumseh said:


> beemanlee writes:
> Second... Select the finest one for the Queens mother.
> 
> tecumseh replies:
> this does NOT sound like a very good idea to me... I would acquire an AI queen mother .


Tecumsem,
The key word in the question was not breeding someones bees, A1 or not, it was as follows:



fatscher said:


> As a new beekeeper...raise our own local queens... for our Northern Virginia... in Prince William County.QUOTE]
> 
> If I was trying to find a bee that worked in my local area I would never use someones bees from another part of the country! Breeder Queens do not last very long with artifical insemination and with the moneys used on local stock being a better Queen...
> Bees that never were here in my don't over winter well and will not make the amount of honey I could take off with my local bees.
> ...


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## beemanlee (Dec 10, 2005)

*Remote: is the place of "select" drone saturation*



LtlWilli said:


> I cannot recall... snotty response... I would be most discouraged to have that type of discourse repeated.
> Regards,
> Rick~ LtlWilli


Rick,
Don't be discouraged, there is never a question that is asked that can't be ansured politly...
Your statement about a cage was good. They have done just that in South America, many years ago.... 
A netted breeding cage for natural matting of Queens was built, very tall... It didn't work as well as you would expect. They were able to teather a Queen and photo the action in slow motion. The purpose was to raise Hy-brid Afro/Euro Queens.
Keep asking the questions....
Lee...


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

beemanlees quotes the threads author with...

'Tecumsem,
The key word in the question was not breeding someones bees, A1 or not, it was as follows:



fatscher said:


> As a new beekeeper...raise our own local queens... for our Northern Virginia... in Prince William County.QUOTE]'
> 
> tecumseh replies:
> you are quite correct the question was in regards to rearing locally produced queens.. the author did not suggest that all the resources for accomplishing this HAD TO BE local also.
> ...


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

15K??? Some of us are attempting this on our own nickel.

I would think that setting up outyards with drone mothers would flood the area. You can at least increase the odds.


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## beemanlee (Dec 10, 2005)

*Do you find your bees are better?*



tecumseh said:


> beemanlees quotes the threads author with...
> what works well locally and try to produce something better... like the red queen... if your answer is numero uno, then you are (at best) going nowhere even if you running as hard and as fast as you can.


Tecumsem,
Do you think that your bees do better because of A1, Select, color, or because they produce more honey and are there next seasom? Do they producr because they came through the winter in great shape? Because your Queens are up to standard polenating requirements of 8 frames of bees on brood in February?

Do you trust someone who says: I have a "A1 Select Breeder Queen" I'll sell you for $1000... and know that her Queens and bees will still be alive in the spring? I've seen this happen using someones bees and a very large cost of over $14,000 just to cover his contracts in the Almonds and see them all dead in less than two months because they were not local, but A1, Quality, numero uno bees...

When you are selecting a quality for your Queens, the most important thing after taking off the honey is, will I have the bees in my hives next spring? These two most important things a beekeeper wants to know, must come first, when selecting for a Queen Mother, not some A1, numero uno, select Queen by Jose' Beekeeper with a quality sticker...

Bees that have become abel to do the above have the most important quality any beekeeper would desire.... Select Local Bees...
Lee...


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## ME Beekeeper (Mar 21, 2008)

Beemanlee,
 I'm in complete agreement. Here here!  In the northern climates we can no longer afford the habit of buying southern bees to replace our wintered dead-outs. We need to raise our own queens and supply our own Nuc's. Thus, the reason for the group now just getting started by Mike Palmer, the Northeast/New England Bee Breeders Association or something similar to that. Then to add to that, the risk of getting someone's AHB bred into the pot. We need to start breeding our own. This is a good post to answer some of the beginner questions on selection of Q-mother's, drone flooding, etc. Keep it interesting. I'm still learning too. I just started last year with 27 virgins and weeded them out to a mere 17 keepers. They survived the winter and already are in productive hives. I'm not a queen breeder, but have 4 club members in line for them. And 3 others that want me to make them a Nuc. Not bad for having a dozen hives. I've had my biggest problem with the barn swallows from across the road. The virgin queens must be juicy.

 Thanks
Larry


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

<Surely the netting needed to enclose an area would not be that bad, if you consider that it would insure fine breeding, plus the fact that it could be written off as a business expense.......>

Unlike the normal bee flightpath which is between 15 and 35 feet above ground, breeding takes place 90 feet or more above ground. I think the logistics of setting up that large a netted area would be difficult.


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