# Building your drawn comb stock pile..



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I wish there was a "silver bullet" for drawing out comb in honey supers. If there is one, I haven't found it yet or no one is sharing the secret! What I'm trying this year is to "cut" all my drawn supers with 5 frames of undrawn - alternating drawn and undrawn frames. Still my method presumes you have drawn comb to start! The jury is still out on how well my technique works. Maine is not known for its honey flows but this summer seems good so far - certainly my Russians are storing lots of nectar in the brood nest!


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## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

What seems to work for me is alternating drawn (best) or undrawn frames with foundationless frames. My bees seem to jump on the foundationless first. Without a good folw and a lot of bees, they will not build comb Without a need for drawn comb the bees just will not waste there time.
My 2 cents.


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## Growing Boy (Jan 28, 2009)

George Imirie was the king of drawing comb.
Basically
feed feed feed.
http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/Foundation_Is_Not_Drawn_Comb.html


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## CentralPAguy (Feb 8, 2009)

This is an insteresting thread and I am going to try something to build up my inventory of drawn comb.

I had read that only young bees make wax -- well if the queen stops laying due to the nectar flow stoppage then there goes your wax production. 

So if you feed, feed, your next problem is controlling the swarming urges. I wonder what would happen if you let them build the wax and keep taking it away every week -- If they convert some of the sugar into honey, then why not let them rob it out -- Wouldn't they use that to create more wax or would they simply store it in some other location in the hive.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

I'm not sure how everyone else is doing it but I can tell you how I did it. When I first started beekeeping I got the bug reall bad. I worked up to 20 hives on my second year. Every season is different. Some years are not so good for honey production and others are fantastic. It turns out that that year was a boom honey year. We had 45+" rain that year and EVERYTHING bloomed. I was scrapping to purchase, build and extract supers just about every day for three weeks. I ended up with a large stockpile of drawn comb. I still have most of that comb today. Some of the frames have given up over time.

It helps to have very productive bees like I did at the time. They were a little hot but they were very productive. That bee breeder is out of business. I would buy his hot bees again today if he were still in business because they were so productive.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I will put on foundation and feed feed feed.When a frame is drawn out I set it out in front of the hive and they will pull out all the syrup and then I set that drawn out frame in a box for storage.I just keep doing it till I have all I need.


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

Here is the link to the article Imirie has about this.

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/Drawing_Foundation.html

Although I have been running foundationless. I guess the real story here is that 3 supers of comb, you'll be feeding basically all year long, and since you are feeding you won't be able to take any honey. So if you want to keep bees for honey, your looking at 3 years until harvest. First year get the bees established. Second year drawn out 3 or so supers of comb. Third year, use the drawn comb to store honey. ... Any other thoughts ideas suggestions tips hints tricks?


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

Maybe by spring of next year I'll have 3 supers of drawn comb, so I can run 1 hive for honey and the others for comb building


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

snapper1d said:


> I will put on foundation and feed feed feed.When a frame is drawn out I set it out in front of the hive and they will pull out all the syrup and then I set that drawn out frame in a box for storage.I just keep doing it till I have all I need.


Probably the route I will go... I made a medium nuc body, I'll have to make some more. Then I can keep pulling frames from nucs..


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

A least where I live a strong hive can easily draw and fill three medium supers of honey a year. You can get the drawn comb and harvest honey. Drawing comb using feed just to get drawn comb seems silly to me. If you want drawn deep frames, you can just add deeps in place of medium supers on some hives. The next year use them as brood boxes.

I have kept bees since 1986 and still have my original drawn honey supers. They should last me my life time. I don't allow brood in them anymore (just a few years experimenting with not using excluders) and they are only on my hives for about 3 months a year. 

This was my timeline:

Year 1: Bees draw two deeps of frames.
Year 2: Bees draw two to three medium boxes for honey.

That hive is set for life except for cycling a couple of brood frames each year. Patience....


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

beedeetee said:


> Drawing comb using feed just to get drawn comb seems silly to me.


 Unless you make some money from your honey...If it truly takes 8 pounds honey to make 1 pound of wax as is published everywhere, and that honey is worth a min. 4$ pound retail and sugar is .65cents pound and half the poundage of feed to stimulate comb building is water then it starts making sense quite rappidly.....


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

A fully drawn frame only contains a few ounces of wax - if that much - they are really light when they are dry. 

Getting them to draw comb isn't really the problem in that second year - it's keeping them from swarming, because there isn't enough space for brood. If there is a good flow, a strong hive will draw comb when it needs space for nectar, but if the queen runs out of room to lay because of nectar in the brood nest (no where else to put it) they will swarm - work force lost, not much comb built.

I removed the queens at the beginning of swarm season - the broodless hives pack away a lot of nectar, because there are no little mouths to feed, and draw a lot of comb.

Putting foundationless frames in the brood nest also helps, because the queen will lay eggs in the new wax immediately. But nothing is fool proof. 

Probably the thing that would work is to start the first year with twice as many packages to get some extra drawn, and then cut the survivors back to half the following spring. But I suspect very few folks have the gumption to do that. I wouldn't.


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## CentralPAguy (Feb 8, 2009)

it makes perfect sense to me to have the girls make the drawn comb during the nectar down time. This way, the girls can concentrate on making honey next year instead of first drawing the comb.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

CentralPAguy said:


> ....the girls can concentrate on making honey next year instead of first drawing the comb.


It isn't one or the other. You have wax building bees and you have foragers. I guess I'm not saying "don't do it", I'm just saying that getting wax built during a flow is so easy, why spend the time and effort?

I do sell my honey. Since a honey super will get drawn one time in my life time, the extra honey that I would get from the wax in the cells (not cappings since they have to do that every year anyway) is insignificant.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Having some drawn comb comes in real handy.Like today I have a bunch of nucs and some have become honey bound.I just traded out some to give the queens room to lay in.Drawn comb can come in handy for a number of things.When I get ready to transfer nucs to full hive bodies I can put them in with drawn comb and the queen can lay all she wants and doesnt have to wait for the bees to draw more.You have a small hive in late fall that needs more combs to store nectar and all you have is foundation the bees might not and probably wont work out comb on foundation at that time of year so you dig out those drawn frames of comb and they will fill them up.Sometimes you may need a drawn out frame right then on the spot!!!!


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## Ozone (May 24, 2011)

beedeetee said:


> I have kept bees since 1986 and still have my original drawn honey supers. They should last me my life time.


How do you store these supers?


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Ozone said:


> How do you store these supers?


I nail a board on the bottom.Spray all the frames and comb with Bt.Bt will take care of any wax moths in the future.They will eat your frames also so spray the wood also.I have never had any problems with wax moths working on fresh comb as there are no cocoons for them to eat on.Then stack the supers and put on a lid.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Since there has been no brood, I don't have a problem with wax moths on those frames any more. So I stack them in a shop on 6-7 sheets of newspaper to try to keep ants and mice out and then put a lid (or piece of plywood) on the top of each stack. I put duct tape over obvious gaps (again for ants). I store them wet now. 

I do have some with wax moth damage to the wood of some frames that I had back when I experimented with not using excluders for a few years. I had to change the foundation on those, but they are the only honey super frames that I have lost. Several supers and frames date back to the mid to late 80's. If you don't use excluders you should protect the supers with some kind of wax moth repellent.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Around here the wax moth larvae will even eat clean, white, beeswax, that has never had anything in it except nectar. A solution of B401/Certan/Bt sprayed lightly on every surface of the idle combs and frames does a very good job protecting the combs/frames from any wax moth damage.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Around here the wax moth larvae will even eat clean, white, beeswax, that has never had anything in it except nectar. A solution of B401/Certan/Bt sprayed lightly on every surface of the idle combs and frames does a very good job protecting the combs/frames from any wax moth damage.


I've read that the Bt treatment is a one-time treatment that will last indefinitely after it dries. Is this right? 

Also, I'll have to store my combs in a out building here in the south...how do the combs store in regards to hot weather? I figure as long as the temperature doesn't get much over outside ambient temperature that it will be fine, and besides they don't have the weight of a load of honey pulling on the comb as it would in a beehive. ??

Ed


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Thats right! Its a one time treatment.You will know it still works as one day you will see a tiny wax moth larvae dead on the combs with only a tiny amount of damage.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I put a deep of foundation on top of my hives in the spring, & rob the bottom box. Its usually empty by then. It also keeps fresh comb in you're hives.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The concept to me, is like stockpiling fruit. It's nice to have some extra, but comb is a perishable item. You don't want too much, but you want some. In my climate if it doesn't all get put on the hives for supers, it will get eaten by wax moths later in the season, so more than I can put on them is a waste.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

snapper1d said:


> I nail a board on the bottom.Spray all the frames and comb with Bt.Bt will take care of any wax moths in the future.They will eat your frames also so spray the wood also.I have never had any problems with wax moths working on fresh comb as there are no cocoons for them to eat on.Then stack the supers and put on a lid.


Hi,
Is the Bt.Bt you're referring to B401/Certan/Bt ?

Thanks,
Larry


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> The concept to me, is like stockpiling fruit. It's nice to have some extra, but comb is a perishable item. You don't want too much, but you want some. In my climate if it doesn't all get put on the hives for supers, it will get eaten by wax moths later in the season, so more than I can put on them is a waste.


Mike,
You state your excess w/get eaten by wax moths........why would your not protect it?

Tks,
Larry


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>why would your not protect it?

I'm not equipped to protect it. The bees protect it as long as I don't get greedy and try to have more than they can protect. Why would I waste their efforts making comb that I they and I don't really need? Then if I get some they don't really need how would I protect it? Put a carcinogen like PDB in? I won't.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

We built a bug-tight, insulated room upstairs with a winch-driven lift cage from 1st to 2nd floor levels. The door closure was sealed by pressure against a soft foam pad all the way around. The room was heated by 2 thermostatically controlled floor heaters, and a peep hole through the wall to monitor thermometers.

117 degrees is reported to kill all stages of the wax moth. As supers were added for storage, the temp was run up to about 125 to 130 degrees for a couple days heat soak time. No chems.
A smaller number of supers could be treated in a closet-sized chamber.

Walt


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

wcubed said:


> We built a bug-tight, insulated room upstairs with a winch-driven lift cage from 1st to 2nd floor levels. The door closure was sealed by pressure against a soft foam pad all the way around. The room was heated by 2 thermostatically controlled floor heaters, and a peep hole through the wall to monitor thermometers.
> 
> 117 degrees is reported to kill all stages of the wax moth. As supers were added for storage, the temp was run up to about 125 to 130 degrees for a couple days heat soak time. No chems.
> A smaller number of supers could be treated in a closet-sized chamber.
> ...


I'm a newbee so pardon my newbeeness, but... 

Do the supers contain framed comb?

If so, at what temperature does comb start collapsing/distorting?

Your system sounds very interesting but my ignorance of heat tolerance of wax comb has me confused.

Ed


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Beeswax melts at 144-147F.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >why would your not protect it?
> 
> I'm not equipped to protect it. The bees protect it as long as I don't get greedy and try to have more than they can protect. Why would I waste their efforts making comb that I they and I don't really need? Then if I get some they don't really need how would I protect it? Put a carcinogen like PDB in? I won't.


You could protect with B401/Certan/Bt . I've read that nurse bees that produce the wax will produce wax no matter if needed or not. If that's the case, the bees efforts are not wasted if they are building comb.

But as you say, why store it if you don't need it......

Larry


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

We use BT on our stored frames, it works very well.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I would think that dry BT spores will last a fairly long time. Anybody know how well they store if kept cool and dry?

Ed


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I would think that dry BT spores will last a fairly long time. Anybody know how well they store if kept cool and dry?

When I was using it and had done all my combs I had no wax moth issues for years. Only when I expanded and didn't use it did I see much activity by the wax moths. So I would say it lasts pretty well.


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## kincade (Feb 3, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >I would think that dry BT spores will last a fairly long time. Anybody know how well they store if kept cool and dry?
> 
> When I was using it and had done all my combs I had no wax moth issues for years. Only when I expanded and didn't use it did I see much activity by the wax moths. So I would say it lasts pretty well.


Michael,

Is there a downside to using B401/Certan/Bt to protect a box or two of drawn comb? Does it affect the bees at all?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is there a downside to using B401/Certan/Bt to protect a box or two of drawn comb? Does it affect the bees at all? 

The two big downsides are the cost and the labor, and it does not appear to harm the bees, both in my experience, and in the research that was done when it was approved for wax moth treatment (which has now expired in the US). But treating at all with anything for anything seems like the wrong direction to go. Better to manage things in a way you don't have problems and raise bees that can handle what problems they have.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#waxmoths
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeswaxmoths.htm


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## kincade (Feb 3, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >Is there a downside to using B401/Certan/Bt to protect a box or two of drawn comb? Does it affect the bees at all?
> 
> The two big downsides are the cost and the labor, and it does not appear to harm the bees, both in my experience, and in the research that was done when it was approved for wax moth treatment (which has now expired in the US). But treating at all with anything for anything seems like the wrong direction to go. Better to manage things in a way you don't have problems and raise bees that can handle what problems they have.
> 
> ...


My hive is untreated to date and doing well, and my plan is to remain so. But I will have at least 1 box of drawn comb I would like to store for the winter so I can hive my 2nd hive next spring on drawn comb. The only other option I can think of is to freeze and then double bag in garbage bags, or individually vacuum pack each one and freeze them ($$$).


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