# Round-Up Around Areas Where Bees Frequent.



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Your use of any herbicides or pesticides has come to an abrupt halt once you become a beekeeper. 

This was just posted on this site.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_872862.html


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## roostershooter7 (May 26, 2011)

No offense meant Charlie B, but your source for this information is speculative at best. Being in the journalistic community, I still stand amazed at the people who will believe everything they read on sites like the Huffington Post. Again, I am in no way trying to offend you, but am only stating my opinion. 

On the other side of the coin. I found this thorough evaluation that was done by Monsanto regarding Roundup. 

http://www.biotech-info.net/glyphosate.html

Again, if any adverse reactions or outcomes presented themselves they would have been required to report them in the findings.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

roostershooter7 said:


> On the other side of the coin. I found this thorough evaluation that was done by Monsanto regarding Roundup.
> Again, if any adverse reactions or outcomes presented themselves they would have been required to report them in the findings.


:lpf: Talk about the fox guarding the henhouse! Hmm, remind me again how much money Monsanto makes from selling Roundup _and_ 'Roundup-ready' crop seed? What does 'conflict of interest' mean again? 
First patent a product, then patent a product that is totally dependent upon the first product so people have to buy both, then systematically put any competition out of business. It's the perfect business plan!


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

No offense taken Rooster. I understand that you believe the Monsanto propaganda because I used to believe it too. However, you are now the care taker of these wonderful little creatures that feed the world and it's time to realize that you cannot spray poison in their habitat. 

Pull the weeds out instead of spraying them. Your bees will appreciate it!.


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## roostershooter7 (May 26, 2011)

Charlie B said:


> No offense taken Rooster. I understand that you believe the Monsanto propaganda because I used to believe it too. However, you are now the care taker of these wonderful little creatures that feed the world and it's time to realize that you cannot spray poison in their habitat.
> 
> Pull the weeds out instead of spraying them. Your bees will appreciate it!.


It would be nice if I could possibly do that. However, it would be a weekly task in itself on the 4+ acres I tend to here at my home. I pull most weeds in my vegetable and flower garden areas, but there are some areas that Round-Up is perfect for. Controlling large areas of pest weeds, and making sure they don't come back!


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## Stephen (Mar 2, 2011)

It doesn't work as fast as round up but a quick trip to your local pet store that carries saltwater supplies and you have something you can kill unwanted plants with and it's safe for the bees. All you need is a bag/box of "Instant Ocean" (or whatever the cheapest saltwater/reef aquarium salt is they have), some water, and a spray bottle. Mix the salt at about 1 cup per gallon of water and put it in a spray bottle. Make sure it's dissolved. This is twice as strong as the suggested mixing rate and if you spray it on plants/grass/weeds and around it on the ground/base of the plant when the sun's out and it's hot it only takes a few applications before its dead.

Instant Ocean is about $9.99 a bag and mixes 25 gallons at normal strength. Doubling it still gives you 12 1/2 gallons of spray. Way cheaper than round up.

And since someone will probably ask... I found out it worked by dumping the water I removed from my reef aquarium when doing water changes in the yard in the same spot. Killed everything including that horrible wire grass. If you live right next to the beach or the plant is salt tolerant this probably won't work though.

Oh, one last thing. Make sure you seal the bag of salt well after using it to keep it granulated. Any moisture gets into the bag and it hardens up quick.


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

I've used round up underneath my hive stands where the weed eater will not reach. No problem so far but have only used it once.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I have used Roundup around the stands for years with no problems caused. Use low pressure in your sprayer so that your droplets arn't drawn into the hive by the bees fanning.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Omie said:


> :lpf: Talk about the fox guarding the henhouse! Hmm, remind me again how much money Monsanto makes from selling Roundup _and_ 'Roundup-ready' crop seed? What does 'conflict of interest' mean again?
> First patent a product, then patent a product that is totally dependent upon the first product so people have to buy both, then systematically put any competition out of business. It's the perfect business plan!


True enough as it applies to seed Omie though the patent on glyphosate (Roundup) is no longer in effect. You can buy the generic much cheaper. I won't get into the whole argument here and now but I will say that glyphosate can greatly reduce soil tillage and the associated erosion and fuel use and is commonly used as a burn down preceding new environmentally friendly plantings.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

One man's 'pest weeds' are another man's 'native plants and wildflowers'.


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## Todd Eury (Feb 27, 2011)

I use roundup and spray in the evening just before dark. I am usually spraying grass. I have not seem any problems and the bees are doing very well.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Stephen said:


> It doesn't work as fast as round up but a quick trip to your local pet store that carries saltwater supplies and you have something you can kill unwanted plants with and it's safe for the bees.


I would think that high concentrations of salt would have a much bigger, negative, ecological impact than the use of glyphosate. Depending on climate and soil-type the high salt concentration may remain for many years and impacted soil microbes, plants, etc.

Tom


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## Stephen (Mar 2, 2011)

TWall said:


> I would think that high concentrations of salt would have a much bigger, negative, ecological impact than the use of glyphosate. Depending on climate and soil-type the high salt concentration may remain for many years and impacted soil microbes, plants, etc.
> 
> Tom


In large concentrations it may. Unless you're going insanely overkill with it you're not going to reach high levels in one spot with a hand or pump sprayer. I dumped 20-40 gallons of saltwater every 2 weeks in the same spot last year before starting to dump in the driveway in November. Every spring I overseed my yard and you can't tell the spot was even bare last year.


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## BoilerJim (Apr 15, 2011)

I have used RoundUp many many times around my 3.5 acres. HOWEVER, since becoming a newbeek this year with my small operation of 5 hives I will not be using any chemicals around my bees. Yea, things may appear to be working OK and no visible signs of anything wrong for now. But, I just don't want to take any chance at all that the bees might be dragging in residue from chemicals I dump onto my yard. I don't want my little girl (God forbid) to develop a cancer *in 10 to 15 years *that could have been related to me feeding her honey from my hives that I had sprayed RoundUp OR any other chemicals around. I'll either cut, mow, or pull my weeds OR learn to live with them. LOL

Jim


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Omie said:


> One man's 'pest weeds' are another man's 'native plants and wildflowers'.


I suppose so but its pretty nice if you can choose. In my case we took 100 acres of marginally productive hay ground with some major weed problems sprayed it out and replanted native grasses with a good sprinkling of legumes surrounded it with thousands of trees in shelterbelts and now a couple of years later we have a nice little haven for the birds and the bees. To do that without Roundup would have required a lot of old fashioned plowing (with the associated erosion and/or moisture depletion) probably a few more trips over the field to prepare a seed bed and after all of that we would have probably been infested with a whole new bunch of weeds as a result of the soil disruption. With the use of Roundup we only had to spray, drill and do one sickle bar mowing to set back any weeds that spring up and presto brand new habitat.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Jim that 100 acres sounds pretty nice. 

Do people go there to learn about the birds and the bees?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Tom G. Laury said:


> Jim that 100 acres sounds pretty nice.
> 
> Do people go there to learn about the birds and the bees?


Actually they go there to practice it, you have heard of rolling in the hay?


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Gotta love those windbreaks nobody can see inside. You mid western kids have got it made.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Roostershooter7, in an attempt to answer your question but without trying to start an argument, Roundup is approved for and is widely used on organic crops. Roundup is used in organic farming as a burn down herbicide before planting no till or minimum till organic crops. Do any of you really think that organic farmers have an army of happy Hippy hoe hands, who march off into the Sun rise every morning singing _Way Down Upon the Sewanee River?_

This doesn't mean Roundup is a good mouth wash or a safe mite treatment, so please don't poke the tip of your spray wand :no: into your hives or put it into your mouth. When used correctly the worst effect Roundup has on bees and beekeepers is the destruction of weeds that may other wise have provided bee forage. Therefore, Roundup's negative impact on bees is no better and it is no worse than the effects a Bushhog, a chain saw, or a disk harrow has on bees.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Scrapfe said:


> Roundup is approved for and is widely used on organic crops. Roundup is used in organic farming as a burn down herbicide before planting no till or minimum till organic crops.


It may have gotten commercial or government approval, but most of the organic gardeners i know wouldn't touch Roundup (or anything else connected with Monsanto) with a ten foot pole if they can help it. But I can only speak of folks I know- who are small to medium size gardeners and farmers.



> Do any of you really think that organic farmers have an army of happy Hippy hoe hands, who march off into the Sun rise every morning singing _Way Down Upon the Sewanee River?_


You mean I'm _the only one_ who does this? Bummer, man! Gonna hang up my banjo...


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Omie said:


> ... most of the organic gardeners i know wouldn't touch Roundup (or anything else connected with Monsanto) with a ten foot pole...


I am quite sure I did not mention organic gardens, but organic farms. Btw, what is your definition of a "small to medium size" organic farm? We would like to know.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Scrapfe said:


> I am quite sure I did not mention organic gardens, but organic farms. Btw, what is your definition of a "small to medium size" organic farm? We would like to know.


Is that the royal 'we'- as in 'we are not amused'?  Just kidding. ...That's why i specified that I was talking about 'small to medium size gardeners and farmers'- I was referring to both small home gardeners and small-to-medium sized organic commercial farmers.
My personal definition? Ok for whatever it's worth- a small organic farm might be a family farm that provides produce for it's own extended family and friends, selling from their own farmstand, maybe supplying a few local restaurants and local farmer's markets, perhaps hiring a few seasonal helpers. 
A medium organic farm I would define as doing all that plus supplying a larger number of restaurants, various broader regional farmer's markets, supplying food co-op/health stores, selling farmshares, maybe some pick-your-own operations, hiring more farm workers. Definitely a commercial operation, but by no means 'large' in comparison to the typical midwest commercial production farm. 
I can only speak for what's going on here in the northeast, where our farms tend to be smaller and varied. I just came back from briefly visiting Indiana, Ohio, and Illinois, where industrial commercial farms are truly GIGANTIC, with corn and soybeans planted as far as the eye can see, though I'm sure that's not the whole picture.
One family-run medium sized organic farm here ( http://www.littleseedgardens.com/ ) sells their produce to various stores, restaurants, and markets around here, sells farmshares, sometimes trucks their produce 2.5 hours down to the Greenmarket in NYC, along with a medium sized local 'artisan' bakery in our town who does the same, selling both retail direct and wholesale supplying. Your mileage may vary with your definitions of small, medium, and large farms. Such definitions are typically relative, depending on where you are. 

I do agree that Roundup can be a useful and helpful tool when initially establishing a native plant conversion project. However, such usage represents a minute percentage of the overall herbicide market.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Omie said:


> I do agree that Roundup can be a useful and helpful tool when initially establishing a native plant conversion project. However, such usage represents a minute percentage of the overall herbicide market.


True enough but its use always results in less erosion because it is used in lieu of plowing.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm not getting into the tree hugging and other going on here. I'm a moderate-conservative. Both sides has some good points. But for those of you that don't understand the differience between a HERBICIDE and a PESTICIDE just toil on. I myself will continue to spray my undesirable vegitation with generic roundup, 24d,crossbow, or what ever chemical necessary to control them. Thus far for years I have not seen any effect on my bees. But I use common sense and don't spray it on them or into the hives. I just don't like using a hoe that much, and can't find the necessity of it.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I would rather listen to experts that don't work for Monsanto

www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/roundup.cfm


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

With all due respect: Greenpeace? Chemical Injury Network? Natural Health Magazine? Coalition for a Healthy Oakland School Environment??? Kind of doubt they are much more impartial than Monsanto. All chemicals need to be handled with care and few are totally benign when tested at high enough dosages. Pretty sure, though, that there is no threat to the general public when residues (even according to Greenpeace) are extremely difficult to even detect.


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## Littlestinger (Apr 21, 2011)

Scrapfe said:


> Roostershooter7, in an attempt to answer your question but without trying to start an argument, Roundup is approved for and is widely used on organic crops. Roundup is used in organic farming as a burn down herbicide before planting no till or minimum till organic crops.


Whoever told you that roundup is considered organic ? It certainly isn't approved for use on organic crops. Roundup and GMOs are one of the main reasons people choose organic.

Also scientists recently found that mice injected with 10% of the level of consumed glyphosate produced offspring with higher incidences of numerous birth defects affecting the brain and central nervous system. Now, we don't know how much of the glyphosate that is consumed ends up in the blood stream, because no one has tested this. It's just not something Monsanto cares about. 

These birth defects have been occuring in humans at increased rates over the last few decades. Perhaps this is connected to glyphosate, perhaps it isn't, but wouldn't you agree that is something that should be investigated ASAP? 

Also, a very prominent scientist has recently claimed to have discovered a new organism, a micro fungus, that is able to grow on roundup ready plants that are sprayed with roundup. His name is Don Huber, you can read all about it online. This micro fungus has been found in cattle that have had infertility problems. It has also recently been found in mothers who have recently suffered a miscarriage.

Again, there might be no connection to roundup, but shouldn't this be studied? Dr. Huber recommends minimizing the use of roundup until further studies can be completed.


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## Littlestinger (Apr 21, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Pretty sure, though, that there is no threat to the general public when residues (even according to Greenpeace) are extremely difficult to even detect.


What do you base this assurance on? 

There have been published studies in peer-reviewed journals which demonstrate the dangers of roundup.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx1001749?journalCode=crtoec

For all the people worrying about the effect of roundup on your bees, your concern is misplaced. The real worry should be what roundup is doing to your children and grandchildren, especially if they are not born yet! Your bees will be dead in a few months whether you spray anything on them or not.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I'm sure Dr. Huber along with Dr. Leonard Hardell and Dr. Mikael Eriksson are just making all this up because they're a part of a "Greenpeace Hippie" conspiracy to effect an assault on Monsanto and all who use their products worldwide.


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## brushmouth (Jan 17, 2010)

I have Roundup on hand but tried ice melting salt for clean-up after I read this:

http://my.firedoglake.com/tucsonrob...ly-created-by-monsanto-unleashed-a-follow-up/

Real problems start with the round up ready seed that will of course open pollinate.
Soon nothing is safe and its too late. 
Monsanto, has shown us their corporate strength in Canada. (DO A LITTLE RESEARCH)
All IMO

BM


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Here is te first thing that popped up when I searched the subject:
http://www.biofortified.org/2011/02/extraordinary-claims/

There is no data to support the claims by Don Huber. When compared to the herbicides glyphosate has replaced it is safer. Glyphosate is being over-used and will be decreasing in effectiveness as time goes on. The patent on glyphosate has now expired so Monsanto is not the sole poducer of the product.

Ultimately, honeybees have much bigger problems than glyphosate exposure.

Tom


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## Littlestinger (Apr 21, 2011)

TWall said:


> Here is te first thing that popped up when I searched the subject:
> http://www.biofortified.org/2011/02/extraordinary-claims/
> 
> There is no data to support the claims by Don Huber. When compared to the herbicides glyphosate has replaced it is safer. Glyphosate is being over-used and will be decreasing in effectiveness as time goes on. The patent on glyphosate has now expired so Monsanto is not the sole poducer of the product.
> ...


There certainly is data to support Dr Huber's claims. 

Really that article is a joke. It's some pro-GMO website and one of the claims is that Dr Huber's work can't be true because the blogger had trouble working an electron microscope.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Littlestinger said:


> There certainly is data to support Dr Huber's claims. If you are just going to google a topic though, and skim the first article that comes up, you probably won't notice the data, or understand it if you did.
> 
> Really that article is a joke. It's some pro-GMO website and one of the claims is that Dr Huber's work can't be true because the blogger had trouble working an electron microscope.


Where is the data? I would think with such an earth shattering find as a new type of organism it would be published in Nature.

It is just as easy to dismiss things as anti-GMO conspiracy too. This thread is based on a letter that provides no supporting data for the profound claims it makes. If these claims are backed by solid data glyphosate would be pulled from the market all over the world.

Tom


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## Littlestinger (Apr 21, 2011)

TWall said:


> Where is the data? I would think with such an earth shattering find as a new type of organism it would be published in Nature.
> 
> It is just as easy to dismiss things as anti-GMO conspiracy too. This thread is based on a letter that provides no supporting data for the profound claims it makes. If these claims are backed by solid data glyphosate would be pulled from the market all over the world.
> 
> Tom


I linked a study about roundup in this thread, but lets be honest here.

No matter what facts I present, you will dismiss them, misunderstand them, ignore them, or claim they are biased. You continue to claim there is no evidence for Dr Huber's claims, but I linked a study in this thread. It's a peer reviewed study, published in a journal, by an independent scientist. That's just one study. I could link plenty of them, but why would I think you do anything other than ignore it?

Then you link to a source like the blog post you listed, which is full of nonsense, like accusations that the claim cannot be true, because electron microscopes are difficult to use. That blogger would be laughed out of any serious scientific discussion, except that she seems to be parroting the standard Monsanto talking points. When we check out her 'about' page, we see she hopes to work in government, regulating the agriculture industry. Of course the way to advance in that industry is to be friendly to Big Ag.

"Dream jobs: developing and implementing science-based intervention strategies for food and agriculture with a humanitarian organization like Harvest Plus, helping lawmakers to write food and ag related laws, developing regulations for food and agriculture, analyzing current regulation and inspection strategies and helping to make them better."

Not only that, the author founded two pro-GM blogs, one of them directly linked by Monsanto in one of their propaganda campaigns. 

Why don't you explain how Dr Huber has no evidence, yet one of the articles he specifically talked about in his letter has been linked in this thread? Explain that and then we can see what you actually do understand.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Ok, let's REALLY be honest here. Judging by the comments, I think this discussion has revealed what's at the heart of the disagreement, liberal vs. conservative. Littlestinger is right. It doesn't matter what you introduce as data, it will be categorized as liberal, earthy, tree huger and be discarded so what's the use in continuing this discussion?

This is not about that. It's about the safety of our children, our Grand children and generations to come not to mention the honey bees that we love so much. I'll quote Greenpeace all day if they're right about something. 

Do what you want. Spray all the crap you can buy on anything you want. Don't worry about anything. Life is good.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm sorry I lied in my only other post in this thread. I said that I wasn't getting involved in this arguement. How ever I want to tell both sides my opinion. Those of you that are against the use of herbicides, I only wish that you could envision the world that I know would be without the use of herbicides, and to go further, even the use of pesticides. I'm sure that some of you would be among the hungry and starving that would come to pass because the farmers could not begin to raise enough for the world to eat. I have farmed all my life on some scale. Never a grain farmer but I know what they go thru to get a crop from planting to harvest. If you have any idea what this requires you wouldn't be so against their use.
for those of you that are so much for the chemical companys. You need to understand that they are first and foremost out to make money. To do that most of the large companys own several members of our congress, and from some of the decisions that the EPA has made they own them also. If you think any differient you are not in touch with the real world either. 
So in conclusion I appreciate both of your arguments, how ever don't carry them to extreme because that is when mother nature is really harmed by very wrong decisions. I still think Clothianidin and its predecessor is going to be proven to be poision to many things including us.


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## ncsteeler (Apr 15, 2009)

Omie said:


> :lpf: Talk about the fox guarding the henhouse! Hmm, remind me again how much money Monsanto makes from selling Roundup _and_ 'Roundup-ready' crop seed? What does 'conflict of interest' mean again?
> First patent a product, then patent a product that is totally dependent upon the first product so people have to buy both, then systematically put any competition out of business. It's the perfect business plan!


 Very few if any farmers use name brand roundup, it's way to expensive .
So I don't think they are running the competition out of business


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

ncsteeler said:


> Very few if any farmers use name brand roundup, it's way to expensive .
> So I don't think they are running the competition out of business


When I say putting the competition out of business I'm referring to their patented 'roundup-ready' nic-coated seeds and patented GMO seed.


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## Virginia Bee (May 20, 2010)

Not trying to start anything here...but I found out by accident that diesel fuel is actually on heck of a good grass (and weed) killer. However, to be safe, I cannot recommend it due adverse environmental effects.


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