# Did research, and now I'm really confuzzled



## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Welcome to the forum. One of the bigest considerations is your ability to lift, age, physical strength. Deeps are heavy yes, but they are the standard and most common in migratory and non-migratory beekeeping. Workers lift several hundred every day all summer long. If you only have one or 2 hives, your proposed solution of removing frames is practical and very easy. I dont know anything about your climate, but i can't imagine one being much better than another in that catagory.


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

I have both deeps and mediums for supers. Yes all medium would have been easier and lighter. A full deep with honey is 60 lbs. A full medium is 40 lbs. I don't know about 8 frame boxes. I get them through my much colder winter in 1 deep, 1 deep and a super. 3 supers. I'm not very standardized and the bees have been at this for milleniums.

You should have no problems either picking up nucs or packages NOW. Try the central Valley. Lot's of breeders near Davis. Or Chico or Yuba City. Now is when they are bring them here after the almonds to the midwest and east. So it should be a cakewalk for you. Try Craigslist. There's also a For Sale Forum on here.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The average cost of back surgery runs between $20,000 and $50,000. Assuming you don't mind the pain or the surgery then if it will save you that to buy deeps instead of mediums you should do it. Of course if you DO care about the pain and the surgery, then maybe you should factor that in as well...


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

stick with standard equipment... there are pros and cons for each super size. mediums are popular for hobby types and for one size for everything. shallows will work for some situations. I like deeps, in northern areas double deep brood chambers are common. it is your choice. there is not one absolute best answer to this for sure.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Can we get a show of hands, all those who have had back surgery as a direct result of working deeps?


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Not promoting Mann Lake per se; however, Napa isn't very far from Woodland, CA where Mann Lake has a really nice store/show room. Why not take a drive over there and look at everything - pick it up, turn it over, really check it out. Then, you'll have a pretty good idea of size, weight without bees/was/honey etc and what everything is. Then, you can check out the different web sites of various companies.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Barry said:


> Can we get a show of hands, all those who have had back surgery as a direct result of working deeps?


well said.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Barry said:


> Can we get a show of hands, all those who have had back surgery as a direct result of working deeps?


I personally know teachers, bankers and truck drivers that have had back surgery. Can't think of a beekeeper though.


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## Rex Piscator (Oct 12, 2010)

I'm a hobbyist and I use 8 frame medium supers for my colonies. With 4 years of keeping bees, the only change I might have made is to go with 10 frame medium supers. 8 frame boxes, even though lighter than 10's, get awkward to stack after a certain height with their weight. I'm thinking 10 frame supers might not stack as high and would be worth the offset in weight for easier handling.

Don't fool yourself into thinking 8 frame mediums are 'light' when getting to your chest level and your elbows get closer to your ears. Not a big fan of elbows above or near my ears when lifting repeatedly.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

to use deeps or any other size you can always break them down so you never have to lift a full box. orthoman's suggestion in post #7 is excellent advice.


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## ginkgo (Apr 26, 2013)

Barry said:


> Can we get a show of hands, all those who have had back surgery as a direct result of working deeps?


My dad grew up working on his father's honey farm, running all 10-frame deeps. Had surgery for spinal stenosis, which was attributed by docs to his many summers of heavy lifting as a youth.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

We'll count his hand when he becomes a member and shows it.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> I personally know teachers, bankers and truck drivers that have had back surgery. Can't think of a beekeeper though.


I know of folks in various occupations that have had back issues, one of them is a beekeeper. I believe he now leaves all the lifting of boxes to the hired help. He does post here, but I've only ever seen him post in the commercial forum.


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## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

My first year I used a third deep as supers just so I'd get more drawn comb for the next year as brood chambers for splits and so forth. Worst mistake of my life! I never tried that again, regardless of needing drawn comb. HEAVY AS LEAD! Another attempt at that and I'd have had to give up beekeeping and any other activity that involved lifting more than a pencil.


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## IsedHooah (Jan 13, 2015)

Barry said:


> Can we get a show of hands, all those who have had back surgery as a direct result of working deeps?


:lpf: Thank you for this!


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## VikingJim (Apr 26, 2015)

I've only ever had 10 frame deeps, but I am a 54 year old carpenter who would rather do something other than more woodworking during my time off. Maybe I just never thought to analyze it any further, but it has always worked. Frames of honey aren't that heavy and I've always had time to take them out one at a time if necessary, besides I like to look at them. In mixed frames of brood/pollen/honey I would sometimes have to scratch the honey open to expand the broodnest but that's easy enough too. I have also never had to move hives, but it seems the normal 10 frame deeps would be more stable if I did. I split the hives with a follower board and use a bottom board with entrances on opposite ends to simulate 5 frame nucs when I've needed to. Another benefit to that being that it makes it easier to move one side to a new hive box and add frames after removing the follower as the bees are established. I guess I've always looked at hives as a collection of frames rather than a collection of boxes.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

grozzie2 said:


> I know of folks in various occupations that have had back issues, one of them is a beekeeper. I believe he now leaves all the lifting of boxes to the hired help. He does post here, but I've only ever seen him post in the commercial forum.


What size equipment do his labours lift now?


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

VikingJim said:


> I guess I've always looked at hives as a collection of frames rather than a collection of boxes.


One of the cool things about beekeeping is that there is a lot of freedom of philosophy and it is not too difficult to change the way we do things as our philosophy changes. My job is a software engineer, which is also wrought with strong opinions, but since it is a team thing, changing the way you do things isn't as easy.

I do think there is a difference for those of us who have only a few colonies and those that have a lot -- i don't mean commercial, just a lot of colonies to work -- i don't have a problem lifting deeps because i have only 6, but someone who has dozens or more will be very sore at the end of the day. 

Plus you can run a lot of different configurations in your bee yard and find what you like best and do that going forward.


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## VikingJim (Apr 26, 2015)

lemmje said:


> My job is a software engineer..... i don't have a problem lifting deeps because i have only 6, but someone who has dozens or more will be very sore at the end of the day.


Idea!!!!!!........an app for the apple watch that measures hive lifting  10,000 steps or 20 fully loaded deeps. Royalties will be exchanged obviously! :shhhh:


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

Like FitBit, a way to track your exercise..... 

The other thing i like about beekeeping is it is not writing software.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Rex Piscator said:


> I'm a hobbyist and I use 8 frame medium supers for my colonies. With 4 years of keeping bees, the only change I might have made is to go with 10 frame medium supers. 8 frame boxes, even though lighter than 10's, get awkward to stack after a certain height with their weight. I'm thinking 10 frame supers might not stack as high and would be worth the offset in weight for easier handling.
> 
> Don't fool yourself into thinking 8 frame mediums are 'light' when getting to your chest level and your elbows get closer to your ears. Not a big fan of elbows above or near my ears when lifting repeatedly.


+1

8-frame equipment just gets too high when you are having a good year.


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

shinbone said:


> 8-frame equipment just gets too high when you are having a good year.


Another difference between small hobbyist like me and others: I sometimes pull a few frames at a time to extract in the summer rather than wait till the harvest, which allows me to not worry too much about the height of the colonies....i do run 10s, so, it is not a height-stability issue.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I have no doubt that there are beekeepers out there with back problems but I do question if beekeepers have back issues at a higher rate than those who lead a more sedentary lifestyle. I have been lifting lots of heavy boxes of all sizes for about 50 years now and while I don't attempt to do the lifting I did when I was younger, I have only had a few minor back issues from time to time. Oddly enough (or maybe not oddly) it's never been while lifting something heavy but instead doing routine stuff, once after a long car ride, once tying my shoes, and every time it's happened has been during mentally stressful times. I strongly believe that lifting properly, stretching beforehand, maintaining muscle tone through an active lifestyle and controlling ones weight are perhaps the most important components in reducing the probability of back problems.


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## Pete O (Jul 13, 2013)

Had my second back surgery in January. 8-frame is all that I can handle.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

Ortho: Thanks. I didn't realize there was a place so close to me; I'll check it out.

After reading replies perhaps a better question is why not just go all deeps and pull frames out if they're heavy?

Since I've never tended hives, perhaps I don't see the cons to the above and the advantage of moving full boxes.

Thank you for responding,

Mark


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

StingerMcStung said:


> After reading replies perhaps a better question is why not just go all deeps and pull frames out if they're heavy?


Well you get your bang for the buck that way and from a resale standpoint it's pretty much the industry standard. I am not sure there is really a right or wrong answer here. Personally I would never give up deeps for a brood chamber but I like mediums for surplus honey partly because it's easier to move bees out of them and full boxes can be handled by people with a little less physical strength.


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## HIVE+ (Jan 4, 2012)

The wrong answer would be how a friend of mine has his hives configured, a deep plus a medium for brood chamber and shallow supers.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

if you want deeps for brood but don't want the weight, and plan to be just a backyard beekeeper try a long lang and run it like a topbar. LOL


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

Hahah, 6:1 1/2-dozen to the other. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and experience. I am reading through Mike's book now and learning a lot. I like the idea of 
1. uniformity

2. lightweight; however, we're worlds away climate-zone wise for wintering and regarding: weight, see #3

3. I'd rather heavier, but lower height at this point in time. Until my colon blows out like a party favor -- yeah there's that.

4. I'm also pro hydraulic/winch/me-no-lift design, so it may be a non-issue; perhaps manual is unavoidable excluding labor.

If all of this wasn't noob-confusing enough, I just read about foundation/frame types and cell size. <shakes head>

I'm thinking wood frames with plastic foundation rolled/top-dressed with wax. I'd love to learn old-school wax-embedded wire someday, but wife has other projects I could be doing. <roll-eyes>

cell size: clueless for my region?

Also bee race: types that do well in our locale?

Apologies for all the questions, but there's a lot out there, and a lot of it seems region specific. I'm just trying to save $/time via school of hard-knocks. (I'm sure knocks will still be there.)

Thanks,
Mark


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

How about a show of hands of people who have hurt their back beekeeping?

If I get to raise it once for everytime I've hurt my back in the last 41 years, I've lost count...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Deep super , shallow super, ... It depends on what kind of flows being collected. Nobody wants shallows up here. But if your in and out of short flows deeps would be annoying.

Lifting comes with the job!


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> The average cost of back surgery runs between $20,000 and $50,000.


mine cost $175,000.00
That is why everything I use is 8 frame and everything above the bottom deep is shallows


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

So in your case, beekeeping came along after back surgery?


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

So what is this? You hurt your back doing everything besides beekeeping???


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

I think I agree with Barry. Is it really necessary to insist to every new beekeeper who arrives that lifting deep supers is akin to playing lawn darts at night? There are many ways to get hurt in every industry and the choice between deeps and mediums will have no impact on beekeeper safety. Im not against smaller or lighter equipment, but don't criticize those who want efficiency or standardization of deeps, like they are only moments away from back surgery every time they lift a deep. Sheesh!


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

a lot of back problems depend on what kind of shape you are in, your body type and how you lift. if you only lift something every other weekend you may have a problem soon. also if you lift 94 pound bags of cement, 10 hours a day for 27 years you may have a back problem. it is more than just the weight of the bee boxes. switching to lighter boxes is not a cure-all for bee keeper's back problems.


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

sharpdog said:


> playing lawn darts at night


We used to actually do that when i was a kid. Don't think you can even buy lawn darts anymore.




mathesonequip said:


> switching to lighter boxes is not a cure-all for bee keeper's back problems.


I actually run deeps for the brood and was trying to say what you are saying, just not concisely as you have. I should be better at this......



mathesonequip said:


> a lot of back problems depend on what kind of shape you are in


I coach football and tell my boys all the time that their core helps determine their overall health.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

Barry said:


> So in your case, beekeeping came along after back surgery?


yes


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Is it really necessary to insist to every new beekeeper who arrives that lifting deep supers is akin to playing lawn darts at night? 

We as a society clearly do not believe it's safe to be lifting 100 pound bags of feed anymore, yet beekeeping still makes 100 pound boxes... For a typical American it is probably safer to play lawn darts at night...


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

StingerMcStung said:


> Trying to determine "best" (yeah, I know) woodenware for my region. I think I'm too late to start this year, but I'd still like to finalize on a size(s)
> 
> I have read this endlessly debated topic and was hoping to narrow it down based on my locale and goals.
> I'd love to hear what others around here are using and why.
> ...


You are over-thinking this issue. Go with 10-frame mediums for everything. Switch to something else later if you are not happy with that set-up. Not that big of a deal.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Well McStung, everyone is in agreement so I guess you have your answer.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

All medium 10 frames meet in the middle of all the different opinions. Go for it.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Michael Bush said:


> We as a society clearly do not believe it's safe to be lifting 100 pound bags of feed anymore,


A bunch of pencil pushing lightweights made that change.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

Appreciate everyone's opinions and reasons behind them.



jim lyon said:


> Well you get your bang for the buck that way and from a resale standpoint it's pretty much the industry standard. I am not sure there is really a right or wrong answer here. Personally I would never give up deeps for a brood chamber but I like mediums for surplus honey partly because it's easier to move bees out of them and full boxes can be handled by people with a little less physical strength.


I don't understand ". . . easier to move bees out of . . . " is that simply because there are more bees in a deep due to capacity or the length of frames or something else?




Ian said:


> Deep super , shallow super, ... It depends on what kind of flows being collected. Nobody wants shallows up here. But if your in and out of short flows deeps would be annoying.
> Lifting comes with the job!


This is helpful. If I'm understanding what you said: "flow" = amount of honey and if they're short/frequent, rather than long and leave-it. I'd be lifting a heavier, but not full box more often, therefore just use a smaller box. Am I getting that correct?

Thank you,

Mark


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## christian (May 17, 2015)

No wrong answer. I'm new with just one 8 frame hive in my backyard. I have 2 deeps for brood and then 2 mediums for the good stuff.


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## tazke (Mar 23, 2015)

I have mostly deeps 10 frame. But I am working towards bees not honey. They do get heavy but I found some help when I need it on the occasional weekend. "Elboxes move pronto" 

I had someone want a med 8 frame hive, 3 boxes, sbb, lid. So I built it and put a swarm in it, of course I never heard from them again. It now has all three boxes and I moved that hive the other day and thought wow if was just doing a few hives for honey I would run 8 frame med. 

Oh, And I have had 4 back surgeries, couple decades playing Marine, all before beekeeping.


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