# roofing felt vs tar paper



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I have the opportunity to get a roll of roofing felt 20#. Can this be used to wrap hives? I generally don't wrap hives, but if its free and would work then I might give it a try next winter.

Thanks


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

I think roofing felt is tar paper.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Scrapfe said:


> I think roofing felt is tar paper.


It always was in my world. I don't know about others.


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

two names for the same thing. We do that so we know who ain't from around here!


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

Its been a long time but the 20# sounds right. It is fairly thin. roofing is so much thicker. it would not bend well. free is good.


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## twintrades (Jul 17, 2011)

There one in the same. 15 lb , 30 lb just a diff in thickness and length. Some people use 30 lb thinking its better for the roof. 15 is all we use.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Wrapping beehives in Suffolk,VA is a waste or time and material, free or not. When I lived in Williamsburg,VA we never wrapped.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I don't wrap in Vermont... I definitely wouldn't in VA. 

I think roofing felt serves no useful purpose wrapped around a hive. It is designed to be a water barrier so if it can keep water out it can also keep it in which is bad. It has a 0.06 R-value so it is adding no insulation properties to speak of....The wood it covers has a 1.0 R value so any heat it is attracting (by being black in color) is being repelled by the greater resistance of the hive body it's self. 

I have never put it in a side by side test, this just my personal logic.


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## twintrades (Jul 17, 2011)

It will act as a wind break tho. If the bees hav'nt propolized the seam yet. Also have you ever worn a blck jacket on a cold day ? compared to a light color it it warmer. Same would work with a hive. Heat up the surface and the wood will absorb the heat as well.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> Wrapping beehives in Suffolk,VA is a waste or time and material, free or not. When I lived in Williamsburg,VA we never wrapped.


Like I said, I don't wrap hives (never even tried it), but if I had free material, what's the harm in experimenting? I've successfully overwintered here for many years, but I'm interested in running some "somewhat" controlled tests to evaluate the potential value. And yes, I understand that there's little insulation value, but the thermal gain may have value. I've experimented overwintering nucs in the attic of unheated garage and found that the thermal gain that naturally occurs was small, but enough to make a noticeable difference.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I am from Upstate NY and I never understood the wind break concept about wrapping hives. The first year I did not wrap the hive but I screwed sheets of roofing material to the four sides of the hive. The edges were open so moisture would not get trapped. The hive drowned in condensation. The next year I did the same thing but had a top hole vent. No moisture problems and the colony made it. This year I left the roofing material off.

If you are looking for thermal gain then put it on the two sides that face the most southerly direction. Leave it off the other two sides. Maybe you want to cover the other two sides with rigid insulation? I don't know what the repercussions are for keeping the hive warmer through the winter dearth. I know people have trouble with inside observation hives up here making it through the winter.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

twintrades said:


> Also have you ever worn a blck jacket on a cold day ? compared to a light color it it warmer. Same would work with a hive. Heat up the surface and the wood will absorb the heat as well.


The military did some testing on this for their uniforms and found it to be generally incorrect. Black emits and reflects heat at a faster rate. Stand on asphalt or a roof in the summer and feel how hot it is. That is because it is reflecting the suns heat back at you. Wrap it around a hive it is also going to reflect the heat back away from the hive.

Ever see a picture of the space shuttle? The whole bottom is Black... It re-enters the earth atmosphere belly first... We all know of the intense heat issues of re-entry... If black was going to make it warmer why would they cover it in black? Because the black reflects the heat away actually making the the surface cooler. 

In the Middle East Bedouins traditionally wear Black robes as a means to keep cool in the desert heat.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AstroBee said:


> Like I said, I don't wrap hives (never even tried it), but if I had free material, what's the harm in experimenting?


Nothing, do what you want. No one here can stop you. Doing what you are asking about could be of benefit. But I doubt it. These are just my opinions. Tell us what happens.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

If Brother Adam's opinion is of value to you; he states that their tests show no beneficial affect from wrapping w/felt/tarpaper (pg.56-57 Beekeeping @ Buckfast Abbey) "We know that cold, even severe cold, does not harm colonies that are in good health. Indeed, cold seems to have a decided beneficial effect on bees."

Mr. Michael Palmer's pics shows that he wraps.

I stopped using 3/4" rigid foam on sides after reading this. I still use foam on lids above inside covers w/escape notch. I think insulating on top of the cover disallows condensation & the notch allows ventilation.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

lakebilly said:


> I still use foam on lids above inside covers w/escape notch. I think insulating on top of the cover disallows condensation & the notch allows ventilation.


I put the two inch block on top of the cover. I don't see the logic to putting it inside the hive where you have to make space for it.


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## twintrades (Jul 17, 2011)

Well i must be nutz ! I "feel" warmer with my black coat than any other color. It must just be me. Lol I plan on taking one of my retired ice shantys and puting hives in there for the winter. With entrances of course !


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Why not paint a few hives black if the idea is to compare wintering results. I don't see where you would even need bees in your boxes. With a good remote temp sensing system installed inside of all white and all black hive boxes It looks like you could solve this argument once and for all.
http://www.partshelf.com/acu-rite-00611.html
In fact if you left both units outside, one unit could record the high and low tempts for two locations.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The black one will be far warmer. Black radiates because it absorbs so much of the suns energy. Energy moves from high to low so when the black surface heats up it will radiate out to cooler air. One trip to the attic will convince you.


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## Buffalo Bee Farm (Jan 15, 2011)

I woudl not use anything that doesnt breath around a hive. Roofing paper is designed to NOT breath, reseach it... 

If your worried about a wind break, buy a few square bales of straw and put them about 3 foot from the hives and create a wind break. They can still breath this way... 

Unless you in a large open field or near the ocean i wouldnt worry about a wind break. I routinly overwinter 5 frame nucs, single deeps, and 2 mediums on OPEN screen bottoms in wood boxes. 

If your worried about the box seams creating a cross draft on the cluster than use duct tape... but again i wuldnt worry about. 

Worry more about whatching for moisture issues and ventilate if needed. I never ventilate JUST for the heck of it, i always look for moisture buildup signs first before i ventilate. I find i have very few hives out of 60 that need top ventilation. I have ONE right now...


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> The military did some testing on this for their uniforms and found it to be generally incorrect. Black emits and reflects heat at a faster rate. Stand on asphalt or a roof in the summer and feel how hot it is. That is because it is reflecting the suns heat back at you. Wrap it around a hive it is also going to reflect the heat back away from the hive.<snip>


Uh, you're joking, right?


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## Buffalo Bee Farm (Jan 15, 2011)

SCRAPFE, 

Just saw a presentation put together from a fella in va that did just that. He used black garden cloth so it could breath and put it on just the southside of one hive, nothing on another hive, and then placed 3 remote temp sensors, one each in the top of each hive on the top bars and one in a trash can for ambiet (non wind shear, just like inside a hive)temp. 

He zeroed his sensors first and then did the study over last winter plotting all three points everyday for the high and lows. 

From what i remember the black material hive increased about 2-7 degs on sunny days due to the heating of the honey and wax during the day and radiating off at night. But on cloudy days closer to the none to 2 deg difference...

In my mind not enough to matter and warrent spending more money.

Second every hive is different and maybe they had more honey, more bees, etc, who knows. But it did correlate well to weather more so...

Good presentation though!


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Black radiates because it absorbs so much of the suns energy. * Energy moves from high to low so when the black surface heats up it will radiate out to cooler air*.


And when the warm humid air is on the inside of the hive because of the cluster, where is the heat gonna radiate to? 

My attic is friggen cold this time of year; Even on the sunniest of days.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Ace, the insulation is on top of cover. not inside. if the top is kept warm, there shouldn't be condensation. I am still working on a top concept that has a removable woodchip moisture catch/ insulation insert, w/ a hole for feed in center. Supposing that I will learn how to post pics when I make some, stay tuned.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I place my foam under the outer cover and in the inside of the inner cover. This way I don't have that small air space between the inner and outer cover. I don't know if it really makes any difference whether it is inside the outer cover or on top of it... Just as long as it is there.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If you put it under the outer cover for a telescoping cover it can get blown off easier that is why I put it on the outside. If you have a notch on the bottom side of the inner cover for ventilation it defeats the purpose of the vent if the foam board is under the inner cover.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I don't top ventilate. 

I have also solved the problem of them blowing off.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-cover.-(prototype)&highlight=windproof+cover


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