# Frame and foundation type; Pros and Cons?



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I buy from BetterBee because they are local and the quality seems good. (7/8 stock not 3/4)

If you are going to try small cell be aware that there will be a regression process you will have to go through to get them there. My frames are wedge top and groove bottom with wired foundation (5.4). I do not wire the frames. I put the foundation in shortly before I need the frames.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Mann Lake, Kelley, and Dadant are all good, but you need to pick one and stay with them. There are minor differences in the designs that can cause you trouble with "bee space" in some cases, resulting in fun things like frames glued together between the boxes.

Kelley has trouble keeping up with demand sometimes, so order early from them. 

Kelley is also the only supplier of slotted top frames if you like that idea -- I'm not so hot on it because you then MUST cross-wire the frames, or the foundation will sag out in hot weather. Once was enough for me with that, took a couple years to get rid of the wonky comb that resulted.

Wedge top frames are more work to install foundation in, but the foundation will never fall out. I prefer the grooved bottom bars as I think they are stronger, and that's what I've been making (I make all my bee stuff). 

Plastic foundation is much easier to use, but can be problematic if you mix it with wax foundation in a hive, or put boxes on after the spring flow drops off -- the bees tend to get "creative" and make strange comb. 

Small cell for control of mites only seems to work for some of the proponents of that approach, but you can try it if you like. 

My personal preference is wired wax foundation, fully crosswired, in wedge type frames with grooved solid bottom bars, Kelley boxes (or my copies), and 3/8" or 1/2" plywood inner and outer covers, and screened bottom board/stands like Kelley's with the insert in all the time. 

Other beekeepers like other styles and combinations, as you will discover. The bees don't care, unless the box leaks water on them it doesn't matter much.

Do some searches and read up on people's experiences and preferences (and reasons for them). And nothing is cast in stone, if you find you don't like one style of frame or foundation you can always change.

Peter


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Have you read the 14 threads in the How To Start Beekeeping forum? 

The 2nd thread covers some of your issues.


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## johnwratcliff (Feb 24, 2015)

I'm wrapping up my first year. M my advice is to define your budget. If you can find a supplier that it's local then do it. As far as foundation, and small cell... First ask yourself the important question, how's your vision? The black foundation is easier to see eggs and such on. I run foundationless. I would find local nucs if you can. If you can find a bee supplier that raises small cell bees. Emphasis on local. You may have to drive an hour or so. If you can afford it start with with three hives.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

psfred said:


> but you need to pick one and stay with them. There are minor differences in the designs that can cause you trouble with "bee space" in some cases, resulting in fun things like frames glued together between the boxes.


Well then maybe you don't want BetterBee. Each and every time I have bought frames they come with differences. It seems odd that the other suppliers would not be experiencing varying discrepancies in design if they are not the producer.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

As far as a place to buy, I have purchased good equipment from Dadant, Kelly's, Mann Lake, and Drapers. If you have a local seller, consider supporting that person. Most local sellers will also give out free advice, which is worth paying a little extra. Also, it is good to have somebody nearby who sells equipment when you need it. Supporting your local seller has its benefits. If you are near Paris, TX, there is a Dadant store there. 

Before you figure out what kind of frames to buy, you need to decide what kind of foundation you will use. There are four basic choices: (1) wood frames and wax foundation; (2) wood frames and plastic foundation; and (3) all plastic frames where the frames and foundation are one; and (4) no foundation. Choosing between these is the beekeeping equivalent of picking a religion -- you'll get different ideas from different people. 

Wax foundation -- pros are bees like it better and draw it out more reliably and its a little cheaper (but not if you value your time); cons -- its more time-consuming and it helps to have some specialty equipment to wire and embed. 

Plastic Foundation -- Pros -- faster and easier to intall and sturdier once drawn out; cons -- bees don't like it and sometimes draw it out weird or not at all. 

All plastic -- Pros -- easiest to use plus the pros of plastic in a wood frame; cons -- costs more, not as sturdy as a wood frame.

No foundation -- Pros -- its more "natural" (although where that is good is debated) and its easier, bees probably draw it out faster as they don't really want foundation in the first place; Cons -- they may not build comb where they are supposed to, more drone comb (again people disagree whether that's good or bad); and the combs are not a sturdy which may matter to a new beek who does not know how to handle frames.

My personal preference and advice for a new hobby beekeeper is to use wax foundation and do it the old fashioned way before getting into plastic, which (for me at least) seems to cause a lot of headaches. Try to find a local beekeeper or club to borrow some tools for wiring frames and embedding the wire. Also, I would cross-wire everything and buy wired foundation. For 2 hives and a nuc the extra work is not that much. 

My views about plastic vs. wax are affected by where I live. Around here, most new beekeepers can get a local nuc about mid-May. There is a nectar flow for about 6 more weeks. Then it gets too hot for the bees to draw much wax. As a result, it is very important to give the bees something that they will draw out fast. My general impression is that plastic works better if there is a strong nectar flow for a longer period of time. We simply don't get that in Oklahoma. I suspect it is similar in East Texas. You may be able to get bees earlier and you probably get more rain, but you certainly have hot summers. I would lean towards wax for starting out. However, I know some very good local beeks that use plastic and like it.

(Unsolicited Editorial: If you think wiring and embedding frames for 2 hives and a nuc is simply too much work, then beekeeping may not end up being your thing. If you think of beekeeping -- which includes putting together equipment -- as a chore, then do something else for a hobby. People either enjoy it or they stop within 2 years after blowing some cash.)

If you go with wax foundation, you should get a wedge top bar and a grooved bottom bar. If you go with plastic and wood frames, you should go with grooved top and bottom bars. If you get all plastic frames, then you just get plastic frames.

If you go with plastic foundation, I would recommend Mann Lake Rite Cell foundation. Bees seem to like it better than some others. I have heard good things about the Mann Lake one piece plastic foundations too. 

My advice would be to skip small cell as numerous studies and some surveys demonstrate is does not actually reduce mite levels. Also, there may be a regression process that you don't need to mess with as a new beekeeper. Others will disagree based on personal experience. However, the actual data suggests that small cell does not actually work. If you don't want to follow that advice and you want to use all plastic frames, my understanding is that the Mann Lake "PF" all-plastic frames are basically a smaller cell size. 

Whatever you choose, get frames and foundation from the same source. There are slight differences in size that cause problems sometimes, and there's no reason to start out having that sort of headache.

That's my 2 or 3 cents. Other people will certainly disagree with some of what I've said, but that's because no two beekeepers are alike.

Neil


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Have you read the 14 threads in the How To Start Beekeeping forum?


Threads that date back to 2008 could be outdated today. His head is already spinning so asking the question today results in fresh advice.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Threads that date back to 2008 could be outdated today.


Ace, it wasn't _me _that selected those threads for the How to Start Beekeeping forum.  Talk to _Barry_.


Anytime you'd like to identify what you consider "outdated" advice in those threads I'm sure the forum would be *fascinated* to hear your views.  :lpf:




... I wonder what that _red _flag on your account means :scratch:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

http://www.beesource.com/product-reviews/wood-frames/


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> (7/8 stock not 3/4)


If you look at the data, it doesn't support your claim.

http://www.beesource.com/files/framegraph.png


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## JDMoodie (Aug 30, 2014)

Not trying to give advice here as I am pretty new in this and have a tendency to tinker and experiment so here is some of my thought process going into my third year of beekeeping. 

I ended up deciding to build my own after looking at the price of hardware, building some 5 frame boxes, buying some hardware.... not that it is too expensive, just that I can do it myself so why not just do it myself? That's part of the fun of a new hobby in my view. I will buy frames, (they are farty), odd things like queen excluders and some tools and gear and more nucs to get going in the spring, ordering now to not get left out.

I think that the biggest decision is what size to use... after deciding if you want to put the time and effort into beekeeping in the first place of course. I like the 8 frame deep idea so I am going that way. I may go with medium honey supers but have to weigh the advantage over having to have two sizes of boxes and frames even though the deeps are dedicated brood boxes. I can decide on honey supers in the spring as my primary goal is to get the brood boxes running and full of bees.

I decided to go with foundationless frames after experimenting with a few top bar ideas. This lets the bees build what they want, I'm not going to try to make them build any particular size. Bees know better what they need than I do. I also like using the wax as well as the honey and I have people who want comb honey. I am also planning on building a press rather than an extractor. If I went with an extractor, it would have to be the configuration that allows the frames to be inserted radially. I think, but don't know for certain, that this would allow me to spin out foundationless, wireless frames should I decide to go that way in future.

Last year I had two hives, four this year and planning on at least 10 next year.

Don't know if this was helpful or not but I have to go out and finish building my deck now.

Jeff.


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## johnwratcliff (Feb 24, 2015)

There are so many options. Just remember read a bunch. Bee keepers all have different views and opinions. There is no right or wrong. Bee can generally fix our mistakes. Find a local beek and look at their set up. Just gotta look at your findings from the reading and countless YouTube videos. Your options will be easier to make when form your own theory and when you decide what kind of beek you want to be. This process is cloudy sometimes. Just read a bunch. I would advise again to think local.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

> If you look at the data, it doesn't support your claim.


Actually, Barry, I think Brian was referring to the thickness of the woodenware not the frame construction dimensions. And Betterbee does sell thicker boxes (7/8 vs 3/4).

Betterbee is very local to me and all my stuff comes from there, along with their endless good advice and encouragement. 

I'll add my two cents worth re equipment choices: I've had very good luck with Pierco all-plastic frames that I add a coat of wax to. My bees accept them immediately and draw them fast and sure. I have a mix of all kinds in my hives and they will work on everything. But _I _prefer the ease of the Pierco plastic frames. I buy black frames for my brood areas, and white for honey collection areas (which for me are all mediums). You can see tiny eggs and larvae more easily on dark frames. Honey looks prettier in white, and keeping the colors separate means I know just by looking at it whether the frame in question is a medium or a deep. 

Chose your boxes very thoughtfully. Number of frames (eight or ten?) is the only irrevocable decision. The question of deeps, mediums or a mix is more flexible as you will have uses for all sizes, even if you start with just one.

The kind and type of frame, OTOH, is not so important and not worth agonizing over. Ask your local beekeepers what they prefer for your climate. Read and make a choice. The only one with any real extra issues is the decision to go completely foundationless from the start. Every other style is pretty much interchangeable and frames are something you'll need to keep buying, regularly, so you'll get lots of chances to try other types if you stay with beekeeping.

If you're not going to get your bees and equipment right away, there are often big sales with good shipping rates on Black Friday. (I think it's traditional with MannLake, the others may follow suit.)

I would also recommend buying at least half again as many boxes as your initial hives will need. In other words if you plan on two colonies with, say four boxes apiece, then buy a total of twelve boxes. Then you'll be set up for all kinds of interesting bee adventures.

Enj


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

If your going to do small cell also do narrow frames. 8 frame boxes will hold 9 NF it might be a little hard for a new beek to work. I did small cell with packages and wax foundation they messed up the foundation on the first try. Then I made nucs with them 2 frames of bees new queens that I bought in each nuc and they made much better comb on the small cell foundation. I don't know of any one that makes narrow frames so I just made all my frames so how good are your wood working skills?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Yes, their boxes are 7/8", but the title of the thread is "frames." And Brian said "stock".


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## sidpost (Oct 13, 2015)

Acebird said:


> His head is already spinning so asking the question today results in fresh advice.


Yes, lots of websites and threads to confuse and bewilder the new guy.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sidpost said:


> I am starting from scratch so my options for frames, foundations, hives, etc are wide open.
> ...
> For 8 frame medium hives, where would you shop? Why do you shop there?


Barry this is what confused me. Sorry for the confusion.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

enjambres said:


> I would also recommend buying at least half again as many boxes as your initial hives will need. In other words if you plan on two colonies with, say four boxes apiece, then buy a total of twelve boxes. Then you'll be set up for all kinds of interesting bee adventures.
> 
> Enj


If the OP is planing on going all mediums he should have 6 boxes per hive minimum unless he doesn't want any honey.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> If the OP is planing on going all mediums he should have 6 boxes per hive minimum unless he doesn't want any honey.


:thumbsup:

6 medium boxes per hive, (18 boxes) was what I bought when I got back into keeping bees some years ago.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

Preliminary questions:
Are you getting packages or nucs? (nucs are likely to be on deep frames)
Foundation = Plastic or Wax? Frame choices come after that and may depend upon which manufacturer you use (Dadant wax works with a grooved bottom, Mann Lake wax needs a split bottom).


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## cowdoc (May 15, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Well then maybe you don't want BetterBee. Each and every time I have bought frames they come with differences.


Hi Acebird,

Thank you for the kind words you have had about Betterbee.

Those frame differences should be a thing of the past now. We were buying frames mostly from Humble Abodes in Maine. They had a great and consistent product. We were not able to get the supply we always needed, so did buy from others to fill in if we had to. 

Humble Abodes had a roof collapse at the factory this past year with the extreme snow. They promised us more frames as they rebuilt. Part way through the rebuilding, the owners of Humble told us they had decided not to continue the business. That was not acceptable to us as they had the highest quality frames we had worked with. 

Two of the employees from Betterbee and the three owners formed a new company and bought the assets of Humble Abodes, hired the employees, and rented the building. The rewiring is about done, the dust collection system is almost all set up, and production has resumed. We have worked with the same suppliers to ensure the wood supply. We are back into the supply chain, so able to get wood in a timely manner once again. As our systems are examined and production capacity determined, we will have some marketing information released. 

For the record, when Barry was doing the frame comparisons, the frames he got were from Humble Abodes. 

Chris Cripps
Betterbee
Greenwich NY
[email protected]


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Chris, when can we place orders? I'd like to get a couple pallets of frames before winter.


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

wedge top and grooved bottom with end bar holes will allow you to do what ever you want with foundation. Crimp wire, foundationless, and snap in plastic. Betterbee is great but shipping is costly on large orders. Mann Lake is a good choice.

My opinion....Mann Lake makes the best frame out there.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

cowdoc said:


> We were not able to get the supply we always needed, so did buy from others to fill in if we had to.


I come from manufacturing so I know what can happen. I really don't think you are any different then any other supplier. None of you operate like medical industry where you specify the design and then go find manufacturers to make product to your design. And what makes matters worse the beekeeping industry is not standardized where designs and dimensions are the same they are only nominal. So when you come into a situation like you did the next vendor you buy from is most likely different. Why these differences? I think it happens because most everything is done by hand and minor discrepancies don't make any difference until you try to mix and match. It would seem to me that a national bee organization would be pushing for standardization so equipment would be interchangeable not just nominal dimensions. I know Chris it is not your fault.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Once you decide on frames and foundation--I use wired wax and wedge top, grooved bottom, get at least one extra hive and maybe a couple nuc hives. If you don't have extra equipment ready, I guarantee you'll have at least three swarms at eye level in your yard. Two years ago I was literally building hives and putting together frames as the swarms were clustering. Good luck!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael B said:


> My opinion....Mann Lake makes the best frame out there.


Have you used Humble Abodes frames?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Yes, if someone says such and such is the best frame, I sure hope they've actually had their hands on all the other frames to justify their claim.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> Yes, if someone says such and such is the best frame, I sure hope they've actually had their hands on all the other frames to justify their claim.


I thought it wasn't the best frame until you glue it and nail it together, install foundation and wire it to your liking.


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> Have you used Humble Abodes frames?


I have not. Their are in Maine correct?


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

Michael B said:


> wedge top and grooved bottom with end bar holes will allow you to do what ever you want with foundation. Crimp wire, foundationless, and snap in plastic. Betterbee is great but shipping is costly on large orders. Mann Lake is a good choice.
> 
> My opinion....Mann Lake makes the best frame out there.


Unfortunately Mann Lake doesn't make their own wax foundation so recommends split (rather than grooved bottom boards) as the wax foundation they sell routinely runs ldeeper than spec and tends to bow in the grooved frames *confirmed with their sales reps.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael B said:


> I have not. Their are in Maine correct?


Yes they are in Windsor, Maine. Betterbee has bought the company.

I've used just about everyone's frames and like Humble Abodes best. I buy them by the pallet...2500 deeps or 3000 mediums, and hardly ever find a defect.


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

ChuckReburn said:


> Unfortunately Mann Lake doesn't make their own wax foundation so recommends split (rather than grooved bottom boards) as the wax foundation they sell routinely runs ldeeper than spec and tends to bow in the grooved frames *confirmed with their sales reps.



Never found to be a problem. On occasion I have snipped the odd foundation to fit in grooved bb.


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## qarl (Jun 9, 2015)

This summer, I started off with three assembled hive kits from Kelley's. I was not impressed to say the least. Sloppy and splintered cuts on the boxes. Many were not level or straight. The required a LOT of cleanup and planing and fiddling to get right. The frames, while assembled, were horrible. More dirty cuts, splinted. I ended up selling them off. Didn't want to look at them every time I inspected the hives.

I then purchased a couple cases of unassembled frames from Mann Lake and it was like night and day. Nice super clean cuts. Assembled perfectly.

I also purchased some unassembled cedar boxes from Rossman apiaries and they were nice and clean and snapped together.

So I'm not sure what happened with the entire batch of Kelley equipment, but it looked like everything was assembled by a kid and cut with a dull sawblade. They lost a customer.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

ChuckReburn said:


> Unfortunately Mann Lake doesn't make their own wax foundation so recommends split (rather than grooved bottom boards) as the wax foundation they sell routinely runs ldeeper than spec and tends to bow in the grooved frames *confirmed with their sales reps.


My first frames that came in a kit were split bottom bars and because the small bars bow the wax would miss the slot. I was concerned on my next order when I switch to grooved bottom bars that I would have the problem you speak of. It didn't happen. Grooved bottom bars are straighter and stronger then the two kite sticks of a split bottom bar even if you don't use glue. You can get two crown staples in each end without splitting everything. Standards, you have to have standards if supplies come from all different manufacturers. It makes no sense to have every just slightly different.


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## qarl (Jun 9, 2015)

Also, I've been totally elated with Acorn's plastic foundation inserts. They have extra heavy wax coating and the bees take to it like solid wax foundation.

I mated these with Mann Lake grooved top and bottom bars and no end holes. With my pneuamatic stapler, some glue and a small application brush, I can assemble 10 frames in about 10-15 minutes.


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## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

Anyone have any experience with Western Bee Supply in Montana? Just wondering about the quality of their product. They are local to me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Anyone have any experience with Western Bee Supply in Montana? 

Yes.

>Just wondering about the quality of their product.

They are owned (last I heard) by Dadant. The quality is exactly the same as Dadant. 

>They are local to me.

It will be hard to beat the price if you take shipping into account. It will be well worth checking out. You might even pick it up and save even MORE shipping...


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Certainly check out their new routered grooved bottom bar if you go that direction. Details of it are at the end of the article.

http://www.beesource.com/product-reviews/wood-frames/


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## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

I'd just as soon have a solid bottom board, as I plan to go foundationless.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Kelley has always had solid bottom bars available for as long as I have known (since 1974 at least).


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## HillBilly2 (Jul 26, 2015)

Barry said:


> Certainly check out their new routered grooved bottom bar if you go that direction. Details of it are at the end of the article.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/product-reviews/wood-frames/


Outstanding! Thanks!


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

I use foundationless. It requires less learning to understand than foundation. With both ways, you need to follow rules for good comb. I've seen lots of videos of bent comb with foundation. I tried some and got cross comb. With foundationless, comb is usually straight, and defects are fixed by rearranging frames.

From my experience, Mann Lake frames are better than Kelley.

benefits of popsicle/paint sticks for starter strips

strong grain direction (flat sawn)
often harder than white pine
You could get groove top frames and starter strips that are wider than the groove. Then, widen the groove on a table saw so that the starter strips fit and are well centered.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Is there any particular reason you've dug-up a five-year-old thread ?
LJ


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

psfred said:


> Mann Lake, Kelley, and Dadant are all good, but you need to pick one and stay with them. There are minor differences in the designs that can cause you trouble with "bee space" in some cases, resulting in fun things like frames glued together between the boxes.
> 
> Peter


Yes, pick one and stay with one company. I initially purchased from Dadant. Then, I needed more supers, frames and foundation in a hurry, and purchased Mann Lake (free shipping at the time). Big mistake. I'm phasing out all the Mann Lake stuff, and replacing with Dadant. Finally Dadant is offering free shipping now, just like Mann Lake, at the time they were not. I prefer Dadant, their boxes, frames are sturdier. The Mann Lake boxes I purchase are all starting to warp. I purchased the same 'grade' of deeps/mediums from both companies. 
I started out with a kit from Dadant, what came with the kit were grooved frames. Later on I purchased wedge frames, another mistake for me anyway. I did some wax foundation, no foundation with Popsicle sticks..............I found out that just grooved frames with the plastic foundation works just fine for me. A lot is personal preference, how much time you have, and how much time you want to spend wiring frames, or not, and on and on. Welcome to BS, it's a lot of fun!


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

little_john said:


> Is there any particular reason you've dug-up a five-year-old thread ?
> LJ


HAHA, Dang, I never even noticed that it was a 5 year old thread.


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## edzkoda (Aug 9, 2014)

Still relevant info. Thanks for the share


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