# How much is a queen



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Hi, All!

How much will you pay for this Italian mated queen?
Look at the solid laying pattern.
At this time of the year, it is harder to find a mated
queen unless you got the right connection somehow.
So how much would you pay for her?

Good laying Italian queen?:


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

We bought queens at $21 to $26 apiece this year. That's for factory grade, mated, laying.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

KC, what does graded mean?

I saw this ads so thought to email the seller to ask some questions. I want to know if this is a
vsh descendant daughter and a no treatment queen also. So here was his answer:
I'm selling select queens from my queen yard. Daughter queen from Italian genetics VSH queens. Queen yard has Russians also. This queen is mild , fast , good layer. I have no mites , so the bees are free of chemicals. She has been in a ten frame hive double, i'm going mostly russians for this winter so letting italians go. She is in #1 nuc. box and i put in a frame of frozen brood, and they cleaned it right up, so i think the traits are still there.

I think this queen will benefit my Italians/canis mutt mix for more vsh Italians traits. So what kind of a bee yard that doesn't have the mites? 
Either it is true or.... Maybe the Russians overwinter better than the Italians in the snow country there. Humm, Russians genetics, eh? I
will put those good R-genetics into my little queen cell jar experiment this coming season. Now R, I, C, C+ I wonder what will be next? We will see!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I said "Factory grade" to mean not a tested queen, and not a breeder. I was pretty sure that they were grafted, put in the starter, moved to the finisher, hatched and mated in the baby nuc's for 3 weeks, and banked. Since I use the Laidlaw cages to introduce them, they get accepted. My buddies add the California slot cages between two frames and open the seal on the candy hole. I usually works, but these guys are 20 to 40 year beekeepers.

If you have almond and avocado pollination contracts, the Russkys won't build up in time. They'll pollinate the later blooms, but you have to watch them once they pop. Swarm city with Russians. Intensive beekeeping.

I suppose that his Russians take care of any mites that show up - they like to bite varroa mites in half. Their extended brood break exposes all the mites to their grooming and biting behaviors.

I am of the same mentality when it comes to VSH - just keep adding it to your apiary. Brood patterns may look a little bit shot-out, but not "spotty". The tell-tale is seeing a white eyes through purple eyes pupa getting uncapped, if not several in progress. I saw one mite-infected white pupa being dragged out of the hive.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Now that you got me thinking again. We have 90% carnis drones out there. There is a 
guy 5 minutes from me who's a member of a bee association, apparently keeping the carnis hives locally.
What if I combine the Cordovan I have, his carnis and the Russians bees together. Will it has an effect on the
mites and on the early Spring build up too?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I'd get more specific information on her VSH genetics. The only time I've seen Italian with VSH is in reference to Pol-Line queens. Is that the origin of this queen? If so, the availability of true Pol-Line queens is VERY low, which again would make me questions the claims. Also, how many generations out is this queen from a tested breeder? Also, the claim that he has no mites casts some doubt on the other comments. 

Personally, if you want to bring in VSH, then you should seek it out in a more direct fashion by getting a breeder.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Good tips, Astro!
Too bad I already put in my confirmed order for this queen. She is scheduled to arrive here on next Tues or Wed.
It is not too expensive queen because the seller has excess converting his apiary
to the Russians. Since I don't have the Russians here other than the local carnis drones, it would be a nice addition to my little queen bee experiment that I run yearly. Either getting this queen to be the drone mother or a queen that I can graft from should give me some good Russians genetics in the local area. Now the DCA should be a bit diverse here other than the 90% carnis out there.
I think the mite fighting ability is not from this mutt Italian queen. But rather it is from the Russians (drones) bees that he keeps in his local area. The seller is from NY and so is this queen location. He's been a beekeeper for 10 years already and with good ratings. Whether or not he treats his bees has no affect on me because I will only be selecting the hives with the most mite fighting power from now on. Yes, we do have the Italians with the pol-line influence here that I bought from a local Russian seller. He got it from the almonds beekeepers. I wonder how many almonds beekeepers got the pol-line genetics. Being new in my 3rd year I got 2 hives that have very low mite count. I did not keep grafting from these queens because I was under the impression that a hive need to be requeened every year. Say bye-bye to these 2 queens in my queen juice bottle now. So I lost this good Italians resistant genetics being ignorant to the facts. Now that I had learned a lot from the many past mistakes I made when dealing with the local mites, I know what to look for the next time on the queen selection process. Oh well, there are many more things to learn being a newbee. Only if I can bring back more mite fighting bees here. Only time will tell!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Remember that recombinant DNA has many more possible combinations than a queen lays eggs in her lifetime, so mixing "races" or "subspecies" is really just adding more possible combinations of traits.

You only get to play with the ones that come out in the wash, so open mate them and hope for some excellent combinations of traits to make a base of, say 20 to 50 colonies per bloodline. (Yes, that means choosing X percentage of the best expression of the desired trait for queen mother, and destroying the drones of 100-x percent of the colonies with the poorest expression of the desired traits!)

With your jar system, you'll probably have that incubator up and running this winter, leaving you in excellent position to begin I.I. at some point next year or the following. Do not expect instant success, but figure that 5 years from now, you'll probably be able define an achievable genetic goal, and make at least some progress toward that goal every round. Only a few of us here on Beesource are in that enviable position or farther.

One other big advantage of I.I. is that you can refrigerate the drones' sperm/semen mix and it may be viable up to a year. That's (probably very small-scale) year-round queen rearing in California, especially if you have any winter forage such as eucalyptus, melaleuca, etc.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

kilocharlie said:


> One other big advantage of I.I. is that you can refrigerate the drones' sperm/semen mix and it may be viable up to a year. That's (probably very small-scale) year-round queen rearing in California, especially if you have any winter forage such as eucalyptus, melaleuca, etc.



Wow, that's news to me. The last I heard on semen storage was that even with liquid nitrogen the success rates were still less than desired. Sue Cobey suggested that we store semen at room temp, but use it within 2 weeks of harvest. Actually she said NOT to store it in the refrigerator, as room temp kept it viable longer.

Do you have reference for your statement?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Is it all that great of a pattern? I mean it's not bad... 
Quite a few dead larva being uncapped on the left side of that pic.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Funny that I don't see any dead larvae. The pics are rather fuzzy so maybe you
are seeing something else like a glob of dry out comb. We will see for a $16 bucks queen how she will grow.
The seller is in a hurry to get rid of his Italians summer queens for the winter Russians combine hives.
Anyways, the seller email me today saying:
"Hi the queen was shipped out today she is to arrive at post office 9/15/15 by noon. Please call your post office to let them no to hold the package she does have to be signed for and opened in front of postmaster. Thanks pete."
The seller also keep the Russians in the same apiary so I should be able to get some daughter queens from this genetics too.
I made up a 6 frames nuc hive just for this purpose today. Wish me luck!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Strange - I thought it was Cobey I learned it from. I do expect higher rates of success from room temp semen before 2 weeks than from refrigerated, but for years I have read it DOES last up to one year stored at 40 degrees F. Maybe the view has changed. I'll email UCD, Dr. Cobey, and PM Joe Latshaw.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Dawn! Did not get the queen bee package today.
Called the US post office this morning. The confused receptionist gave me the
wrong information that the package had already went out with the mailman. I was elated then.
Got home an hour early from work and found out that the package is still in transit when I
called the post office again. A guy name withhold pick up the phone told me to call him tomorrow
morning. Will see if this time they will do it right. I'm happy and disappointed now. Is 2 days in transit from NY o.k.
at this 80F weather?


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

beepro said:


> Dawn! Did not get the queen bee package today.
> Called the US post office this morning. The confused receptionist gave me the
> wrong information that the package had already went out with the mailman. I was elated then.
> Got home an hour early from work and found out that the package is still in transit when I
> ...


Have not shipped or received queens but I thought you had to pick them up and make sure they're alive in front of the postmaster or someone so they could verify if an insurance claim is needed.
Something don't sound right.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

beepro said:


> I have no mites



If anyone told me this I wouldn't buy anything from them!


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I paid $25 each for 2 Italians last year. Found a queenless hive about an hour ago. No Italians available. Having to pay $30 for a Russian. Too late in the season to let the bees make their own.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, I'm suppose to pick it up yesterday according to my seller. Thread #13 highlights
this issue of a bad advice from the woman clerk who was confused and mixed up when I called.
So I got my queen package today delivered by the head postmaster himself (who else would have this authority) to
our house not in an usual mailman car but in his own personal vehicle. We have to sign it off too. The queen was with 5 attendants and one is a DOA. My sister at our house did not know what to do because I did not leave any care instruction for her. She cut the cardboard box out and took the cage along with all the attendants outside in the cold 70F weather inside a small plastic bucket and put a piece of cloth on top so they wouldn't fly away. She didn't know that the cage got a mesh wire and corks in it. So nothing can fly away until the beekeeper release them.
I installed her tonight and the remaining live attendants along with a few big fat nurse bees inside a push in cage that I just made up. They smell her scent and quickly buzzing their wings to signal of the new queen here. The little bees all following along a few after another marching in the direction of the queen scent. The fanning does work! I was observing in amazement of the entire process. Just like the cartoon the worker bees got into a trance. I then put in 2 more frame of bees attached from the fairly strong hive. One was a pollen/nectar and one a brood frame for a total of 7 nuc frames in a queen less hive I made up 2 days ago. I removed any queen cells first before the final closing of the hive.
Gave them patty now and will release their new queen in 2 more days.
She look much like a Russian than the Italians queen claimed by the seller. And they all are the small cell bees including the small queen compared to the local Italians that I grafted. She was almost half the size of my local mutt queens. So I think she might be from an isolated many generation same genetics raised queen. The seller may have an apiary set up this way. That is why he claimed to be mite and treatment free for 10 years of operation. The Russians are know to keep the mites at bay. I'm willing to take a chance for a select queen that is a proven layer already. Buy it or not it is up to you. I took the chance and is extremely happy with her. My Italians have the yellow legs and brown eyes. This queen has the yellow abdomen and hairy black legs and eyes. And so are her attendants. I wonder if the Russians queen have more hairs than the Italians?
Overall, I am very happy that she made it alive after two and a half days waiting and calling for her. Hoping this Spring I can take some graft from her. Let's see if her offspring are the Italians or the Russians. Cannot wait to see what the little worker bees will look like once the daughter queens are mated with the 90% carnis drones out there from a bee association hives nearby. 
So this queen is from a treatment free stocks. I also found a source of Italians and black hybrid (carnis?) queens too. And another source of vsh queens. But don't know the price yet until I contact the sellers to ask a few questions. I'm done for queens now in this season. Since this seller also keep the Russians in the same apiary I also asked him to sell some hen they are available. We will see if this queen make it in our mild winter this year. After all, she is from a winter snow bound city NY queen.
Does anybody know what year queen she is of a red paint mark on her thorax? 


Here are some pics of her:


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

I wasn't trying to dissuade you, I'm just saying that "treatment free" and "mite free" are two different things. I have not seen one mite on any of my SBB this summer. I just treated Saturday and Sunday and checked the boards yesterday and they are covered with mites. Anyone claiming to be mite free better have some good evidence to back that up. I know a guy locally that is treatment free, but he uses other methods to control mites because he knows they are there (i.e. brood breaks).


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

If used consistent with the standard, a red mark would indicate 2013. I highly suspect that she's not a '13 queen and that the supplier uses whatever color he feels like. 

Just some friendly comments about your screen cage: First, I find that 1/8" hardware cloth a better material since it can be embedded *into* the comb and not just lay on top. The last thing you want is bees "leaking" under a poorly fitted screened cage. From the picture, your cage appears like window screen - I could be wrong. Second, there doesn't appear to be capped brood under the screen (perhaps I just can't see it). The point of the cage is to place it over emerging brood so that the queen is better accepted. If my observations are correct, then I think you would have been better off just using the 3-hole cage she came in. Last, a pollen patty is of little value under a cage. I hope it all works out for you.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks you for your concern. Dissuade or not I got the queen already.
Will further evaluate her to see if there is any mite fighting traits
on her and her offspring when I graft them this coming Spring. I don't think
the seller is a queen breeder only sell off his excess for the coming NY winter. That way he can keep all his Russian queens there. 

Astro, thanks for all the good pointers. Yes, it is a #8 window wire screen that I use to make the push in cage into the soft comb that has nothing in them yet. No nectar, pollen or capped broods since this is a new drawn comb from this year.
I don't have any extra frame to work with other than this empty one. So I use what I had available at that time.
Like you said it is a poorly fitted cage so I put a piece of rubber band around it to hold it onto the frame and comb. Seems to do the job o.k. And instead of placing it on the emerging broods I cut a small hole at the center of the cage to put some young nurse bees in it. Then dumped all the bees out attendants included from the queen shipping cage after opening the wire mesh. Then quickly closed the wire screen cage. A piece of small patty put in prior so that the nurse bees have something to eat because all the cells are empty inside the cage. I think the outside bees who already accepted the queen was also feeding the nurse bees inside the cage.
So today after work I went in to released the queen and took out the #8 window mesh cage. Instantly all the young bees swarm around her to feed and groom her. At first, I thought Ugh oh, another balling event as I have seen many of those before on a new queen. Then was very relieved once I saw all the bees made way to form a circle around her and cleaning her up. This was a successful queen release and acceptance. I think in the Fall the bees behaved differently than the early summer bees. Now let's hope that she will lay some good winter bees for me. 
Being the smaller, probably regressed bees from the isolated apiary, I put every small cell frames I can find into the hive along with all the small cell young nurse bees.
I don't anticipate any issue on this process. Will wait to see!

Released Russian/Italians queen:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

A quick Update:

After the first hatch the hive is full of young and old bees. I donated 2 frames for
an old queen in a 5 frame nuc hive. Too bad I ran out of drawn comb otherwise
this hive can expand more going into our late Fall. Need to save some eggs too for 
the next queen generation.


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