# queen cells dead in incubator



## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Weird. Never seen that. Tons of jelly but no larvae...

Is it possible they are being damaged while moving them into the incubator? I only use the incubator when weather won't allow me to install the cells and never pull them before day 10, after grafting, because they are said to be so fragile.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I have been pulling the day they are capped.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Yeah no idea. Do you have photos of what is inside? If the larvae died there should be a remnant of it. Something.

And you trust your thermometer and hydrometer? I use two of each to make sure I'm dead on as the only time I lost cells is when my hydrometer was reading 55% but was actually more like 5% after checking with a nicer meter.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Hey Backyard bees does your incubator have a fan in it?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The fan comment is very relevant. With no fan the temperature at the top will be very different to the temperature at the bottom.

Also, I discovered when I went to buy a thermometer that they are not all accurate, because there were a bunch of thermometers on the shelf and they gave a surprisingly wide variation of numbers despite being right next to each other.

Because of this I now calibrate any thermometer with a medical grade human thermometer.

I also discovered that the electronic temperature controllers we use to run incubators can be inaccurate also. Because of this, now when I get a new temperature controller I first calibrate it by putting the temperaure sensor in the middle of a good sized brood nest of a properly functioning beehive, and see what the controller says that temperature is. Then whatever it thinks it is, that is the temperature I set it to for running the incubator.

Since doing all this the results I have been getting with incubator held queen cells has been excellent. I run RH at a minimum of 50% and maximum 75%, RH is not quite as critical as temperature.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Hey Backyard bees does your incubator have a fan in it?


It's one from Amazon, has a fan in it, I keep it on 35 C has no F settings , The first batch I ever did all came out of it fine, last two have dried up, or no larvae in them. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07VF4239...=4TynX&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_1_title


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

Oldtimer said:


> The fan comment is very relevant. With no fan the temperature at the top will be very different to the temperature at the bottom.
> 
> Also, I discovered when I went to buy a thermometer that they are not all accurate, because there were a bunch of thermometers on the shelf and they gave a surprisingly wide variation of numbers despite being right next to each other.
> 
> ...


Using these Amazon.com: Veanic 4-Pack Mini Digital Electronic Temperature Humidity Meters Gauge Indoor Thermometer Hygrometer LCD Display Fahrenheit (℉) for Humidors, Greenhouse, Garden, Cellar, Fridge, Closet: Home & Kitchen


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

It certainly sounds like an incubator problem. To confirm this, it might be worth raising a few q/cells 'naturally' on a comb inside a hive, and see if they run the distance ok. Pulling them just before they're due to emerge and cutting 'em open should produce an almost fully-formed queen (of course).
I'd echo the advice that a fan is essential in order to ensure a regular temperature throughout the box.
LJ


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

35 is near max for a queen cell. If your one is going a bit over that will kill them.

Could try it on 33 and see what happens.

$7.99, guess you get the quality you pay for.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

May want to try some better instruments. Keep in mind that a 1c difference is nearly a 2F difference. If your incubator is only 2c off and you're running near the high end, you may be around 100F.

Cells are likely fine but I 2nd finishing some in a hive to verify.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I guess I cooked them the temp was telling me 91.5 or something like that., and maybe I took them from the cell finisher too early. I'll try the suggestions, thanks.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

91.5 F is around 33 C, which is OK for queen cells.

Instead of a lot of experimenting and having to waste queen cells to find out, why not get a medical grade human thermometer and find out what your set up is running at.

Ideal temperature for queen cells is 34 C. From 33 to 35 is OK, outside of that they do less well.

Also ensure your fan is circulating the air thoroughly.

Only other thing that could be wrong is you have a cheapo instrument that is allowing wide temperature swings. The cheap instruments do not show the temperature extremes on the digital screen, it is usually worse than shown. Me, I use PID controllers that give a genuine range not much over 0.1 C.

Sort all that and you should be good. The main other thing that could kill your cells is Black Queen Cell Virus (BQCV), however this would not usually kill every cell, just the odd one. So I'm thinking your losses are more to do with your incubator or your handling.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I have a similar unit that I am incubating cells in now. I also have temp sensors in it. Top shelf, where the queens are at is 94 degrees F. Bottom shelf is 3 degrees colder (and empty). Mine are due to emerge Sunday. Someone else in my FB group said they have been successfully using theirs for 4 years. Of course there is the occasional one that malfunctions so definitely get some type of sensor to see.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ruthie is that temperature variation between top and bottom despite having the fan running?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Ruthie is that temperature variation between top and bottom despite having the fan running?


It would seem that the internal fan only runs when the heater kicks on. I did purchase a USB charged wireless fan that takes up the entire bottom shelf. I didn't add it to the 5 cells that are sitting in there right now but when I tested having that run, neither shelf got up to the proper temperature. I remove the cells today to place in nucs so I will do more testing with the fan, etc.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Oh, that explains it. 

Yes the fan has to run all the time because when the thermostat switches off there is still residual heat in the heater, plus other heat pools that will rise to the top.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I would echo what others have said about questioning your temp accuracy. The fact that they are all dead would seem to rule out other possibilities involving health of the hive. I love my QCF incubator and encourage everyone against cheaper budget setups. If price is of primary concern just leave em in the builder a few more days.


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## SweetApitherapy (Jun 10, 2021)

Sounds strange. Even if the temperature was off I don't think the cells would be empty but rather that you'd find them just dead at whatever stage they died.
Too hot is the only temp problem I could see you having. At 32°C they will just hatch approximately 27 hours later than 35 but their quality still doesn't suffer any at 32°C.
I have had some left out at room temperature from day 14-17 and when I opened them up they were still alive, I'm not sure if they would have been viable anymore but I think they can handle a little more cold than we would typically think.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

The last run I did, all 26 were dead in the pupa stage, it was set at 33C, but never reached over 32C,This time I'm not using the incubator, looks like 20 in the finisher now, I'll leave them till day 14.


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## SweetApitherapy (Jun 10, 2021)

What day did you open them to find them dead? I've opened some at day 14 that looked dead but I'm sure just needed more time, if your incubator didn't get over 32 but stayed around 32 then the queens would develope slower but shouldn't be dead (if the temperature didn't get too low).


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

It was like day 15-16 they were purple eyed stage, no movement, maybe I removed them too soon from the hive.


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## SweetApitherapy (Jun 10, 2021)

ifixoldhouses said:


> It was like day 15-16 they were purple eyed stage, no movement, maybe I removed them too soon from the hive.


Yes I would guess they were still alive and just removed too soon. They were likely slowed down in development from not being warm enough.
I don't know how much below 32 they can be without compromising quality, as 32 is the lowest I've seen for studies that shows equal quality.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

How do you know it never reached 32? You had a secondary way to read the temperature?

If so, how about wind the set temperature up to say, 36. It may then get up to a real temperature of say, 34. If that works, try some cells again you might get lucky.

On the other hand, is it that the heater is inadequate or the incubator too leaky so it won't get up to temperature whatever the setting? In that case, total rebuild.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Also, if the temperature is working right, doesn't matter how early you remove the cells provided they are capped, they will be fine.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I had a little digital thermometer in there that was saying 89F but the machine was set on 33 and hardly ever reached that high. I guess the see through door loses heat.


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## SweetApitherapy (Jun 10, 2021)

Oldtimer said:


> Also, if the temperature is working right, doesn't matter how early you remove the cells provided they are capped, they will be fine.


I could be wrong but I'm assuming by "removing them" he's meaning opened the cells?


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

SweetApitherapy said:


> I could be wrong but I'm assuming by "removing them" he's meaning opened the cells?


Removed







from the queen rite cell finisher, I just removed 14 cells I grafted June 7th, I was careful and smoked the bees off the frames, going out of town to move bees to Sourwood, didn't want these hatching out, I put them in the incubator and covered it up with a bunch of towels. Maybe it'll stay warm enough now.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

SweetApitherapy said:


> I could be wrong but I'm assuming by "removing them" he's meaning opened the cells?


Oh yes sorry that was totally unclear. I meant remove from the hive and put in the incubator. As IFixOldHouses figured out.


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## SweetApitherapy (Jun 10, 2021)

Oldtimer said:


> Oh yes sorry that was totally unclear. I meant remove from the hive and put in the incubator. As IFixOldHouses figured out.


Ok my misunderstanding. What I was meaning is what day did you open a cell to find them dead. I usually move to an incubator day 8 (4 days after grafting). If you opened the cells day 15-16 and they weren't moving then I'd think they were slowed down in development but still alive when you opened the cells.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Did a bunch of stuff but mostly they got candled day 15 or 16. But death by BQCV the larvae are usually pre pupal or shortly after, so death would have occured well before day 16. But day 15 or 16 is the most convenient time to candle and sort them.


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