# Is 300 foundationless hives possible?



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm a firm believer in foundationless frames. I currently have about 30 hives, all foundationless, but my plan is to increase to 300 or so hives over the next couple years. Is there anyone out there who runs hundreds of hive foundationless, or is it not practical when going that big? I find foundationless to be somewhat labor intensive at first, because you have to stay after the bees to get the frames all drawn out straight on the center of the frames. For me this involves going into the hives frequently after adding new boxes, trimming comb, bending it into place here and there, and rotating undrawn frames in between already drawn frames, in short, its alot of work to get it drawn correctly. Once drawn properly, foundationless is just as good as comb built on foundation, actually its better, because you don't have all the chemicals in the wax. With a small number of hives, foundationless is really not too bad, but when I think about all the work in getting hundreds and hundreds of boxes of foundationless frames drawn out correctly, I really wonder if it is worth all the trouble. Any opinions on this? Thanks.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sure, any number is possible if you want to work at it that hard. Why are you so enamored w/ foundationless frames? Is it so the bees will build the right size cell?


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

beekeeping is so local and personalized. While it might help to give you some 'pointers' in managing such a large number of hives, it's certainly not a pre-requisite for you trying it yourself.

Les Crowder manages a large number of top bar hives (foundationless) 

dare to dream my friend, dare to dream.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Possible - yes. Practical - Probably not for the reasons you named plus others. It would depend on what you plan to do. If you are going to put them in yards and leave them all year then I would say it wouldn't matter. If you are moving them to almonds or other pollination, winter yards, etc. you are going to need something with support because the moving of hives can jar them quite a bit.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

300 hives is just doing 30 hives ten times.

I believe Michael Bush runs about 200 hives that has a mix of foundationless and small cell frames.

I have found that my bees draw foundationless comb much straighter and a uniform thickness if I use 1 1/4 inch frames.

Installing wax foundation, wiring, embedding, etc can be labor intensive at first too.

There are two main ways of getting 300 hives. Build your numbers up over time, or buy hives. I doubt you will be able to buy 300 hives running foundationless frames anytime soon. You should be able to build up to that.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

My hives will stay in their yards, no moving for me. I have been thinking of compromising and using wired foundation for the honey supers so they can stand up to extracting a bit better.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Countryboy, how do you get your 1 1/4" frames? One thing I noticed about doing foundationless on standard frames is that the bees start off building the combs on the centers of the frames, but as they move across the box drawing comb, they start to get further off center and cheat them closer to the 1 1/4" spacing they prefer. I wish some company would build frames that are on 1 1/4" centers with all the bee spaces being correct, that would make life easier.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

If foundationless is for chemical free wax, you may be disappointed. They are even finding chemicals in hives exclusively on organic farms. Silly bees go wherever they want to forage. There was a presentation or two at ABF in Orlando this year on chemicals in beeswax. Ozone is the only sure way to remove bad stuff from beeswax.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

alpha6,
Foundationless does not necessarily mean "wireless" too. Even though I use only medium depth frames, I still find that two horizontal wires certainly help add support even for foundationless combs.


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## Jeffrey Todd (Mar 17, 2006)

Are you currently extracting from your 30 hives or do you do comb honey, crush and strain, etc? I personally have a less than satisfactory experience spinning out foundationless frames, although I love them otherwise. I think embossed plastic or good old wired foundation may be the best. Everybody wants to do the in-thing and go foundationless, or just do top-bars, but those recycled ideas were largely left behind by our predecessors for good reasons. For the backyard beekeeper, they are great, but to efficiently produce even a moderate amount of honey, they become impractical.
300 hives on foundationless frames would necessitate transport to process honey, no matter the method, and I don't believe foundationless would stand up. Unless, of course, you do all comb honey.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

actually, that's not correct entirely. you say they were left behind, and largely, that is true, but not because they were bad methods, more that everyone, as usual, jumped on the the new fad at the time, Lang style.

In some parts of the world, top bar hives never disappeared, stayed in use.

One need not be so judgmental to express their preference for using one style or methodology in comparison to others.

back to the question at hand, one of the biggest determining factors for you is the motive, what are you wanting from these hives? Are you in this for honey production? Or pollination service as someone else mentioned? If you really personally want to stick with foundationless, there are ways to do it, I'm sure, but there will be issues to be accounted for. travel is harder on foundationless frames.

If it's what you really want to do, just keep an open mind and handle the challenges as they come.

persistence pays. (so does patience, in the long run)

Big Bear


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Jeffrey, I have a couple top bar hives that I crush and strain, the rest of the hives are all medium depth boxes which I extract, but I will admit that the combs don't stand up to extracting as well as I would like, I don't wire them either, yet. What you say is correct about foundationless being an old concept, however, these ideas are coming back into use lately because people feel that it is better for the bees, not necessarily better for the beekeeper.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Can you go to 300 foundationless? probably cheaper too, just work your way up to 300 from 30, just like you did from 3 to 30.
I have to disagree on the folks that keep saying foundationless is so fragile. I have been going foundationless for over 5 years now and the only time I have trouble with the comb is A) when it's brand new or B) if it's out of the hive for a while and gets dry or frozen. Full drawn deeps that are in the hive are solid enough to drive cross country and not have any problems. I haven't extracted foundationless yet (crush and strain), but I would expect that mediums that either have had a cycle of brood in them or a couple wires would hold up just fine. I think part of the problem is some folks might want to crank the extractor all the way up, well I've heard of even plastic foundation blowing out if you do that.

Rod


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

I imagine that deeps are more troublesome for fragile comb then mediums, since the ratio of comb vs area of attachment is higher (on attachment side). I don't run langs myself, what if you use one or two frames with foundation to get them going in the right direction then remove those and replace with empty frames? I have read that 1-1/4 inch frames help as someone mentioned already, I think Mr. bush or was it Bwrangler guy.. planes the bee space standoffs down on each frame to match 1-1/4" You could also setup a table saw for this and rip a lot of em down FAST, you would have to setup the saw for each side of course but if your talking about 300+ frames. Anything is possible!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is there anyone out there who runs hundreds of hive foundationless

About 200, yes.

> or is it not practical when going that big? I find foundationless to be somewhat labor intensive at first, because you have to stay after the bees to get the frames all drawn out straight on the center of the frames.

Seems to me it's a lot less work. I don't have to put in foundation, wire, it etc... but then I don't worry too much if they are off a bit, as long as they are in the frame. And if on occasion I end up with a mess up box, I pull it when it's empty and rework it. But that's rare enough to still be less work than putting in foudation...

> For me this involves going into the hives frequently after adding new boxes, trimming comb, bending it into place here and there, and rotating undrawn frames in between already drawn frames, in short, its alot of work to get it drawn correctly.

Ah, but once they are drawn...

> Once drawn properly, foundationless is just as good as comb built on foundation, actually its better, because you don't have all the chemicals in the wax. With a small number of hives, foundationless is really not too bad, but when I think about all the work in getting hundreds and hundreds of boxes of foundationless frames drawn out correctly, I really wonder if it is worth all the trouble.

What trouble?


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Countryboy, how do you get your 1 1/4" frames? _

Tablesaws are wonderful things. They work great to trim endbars.

_I wish some company would build frames that are on 1 1/4" centers with all the bee spaces being correct, that would make life easier. _

Check the For Sale forum section. I believe Gene Weitzel is selling 1 1/4 frames.


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## Jeffrey Todd (Mar 17, 2006)

Bigbear, I think you misinterpreted my post. As I said, I love foundationless. I just said it is not the most efficient way to run 300 hives if you are going to extract. Why do I love foundationless? 1) It, like me, is cheap, 2) It is easy to start, 3) Bees seem to like it the best, 4) It is about as all-natural as can be. What do I dislike about it? One thing only: it lacks strength during handling and extraction.

Other areas of the world use top bars by necessity, not having the cash to purchase factory-made equipment. Langs are not a "fad" but a well-thought out evolution that has proven itself over the years to be the best all-around system. Making judgments about efficiency and functionality is not judgmental in the sense you speak of. 
My experience with extracting foundationless has been that I have to spend a lot more time SLOWLY cranking up the radial extractor to a high enough speed to get most of the honey out but still having maybe 10% of the frames blow out, even with older combs. More time spent cleaning up the mess plus the loss of drawn comb just is not worth the headache to me. 
I think Joseph C. is on the right track by wiring the frames prior to letting the bees fill them with comb. Alternatively, I have been toying with some type of mesh cage or wrap the could be easily placed around a frame after uncapping it and before placing it in the extractor. Someone smarter than me can probably come up with a built-in feature on a radial extractor for those of us who would prefer to use foundationless.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

If you're using deep frames for honey I suggest you put a 3/4" of wood half way down the frame. I rip them with my table saw and staple them in the frame. Comb is very stable this way. Bees fill them out completely for me.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

jeffrey, no prob, everyone has an opinion, you have yours and I have mine, they don't have to agree, that's what makes it great.

Ultimately, only the person working the said hives will determine what is 'worth' the 'work' they put in and that will be their opinion.

Big Bear


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## dirtfarmer (Mar 10, 2010)

If foundationless is a little extra work, it's worth it, just to get the bees to draw it out quicker. When I place foundationless beside foundation they go right to work in the foundationless, but seem to dread the foundation. I would think that this difference would be very important for someone with lots of hives. I use a small starter strip of foundation across the top of every Kelley wedge-top frame. I have never had to correct a frame yet.


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## Jeffrey Todd (Mar 17, 2006)

Sure, Bigbear. This is a cooperative effort. The more ideas that come across, the better chance we have of finding the best for each situation.
Perhaps something similar to the swarm-catching frames that some people use for cut-outs would work; sort of a device that can be sandwiched around the foundationless frame at the time of extraction to keep it from pulling apart. 
Anyway, I would very much like to hear from anyone who has further ideas on how to keep frames (esp. med) stable during extraction. The wires and cross brace already mentioned may be sufficient - I haven't tried either.


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

Preparing 270 hives worth of anything sounds like a daunting task regardless of methodology, I guess it depends what your goal is, I have read that natural cell or small cell is a minimum requirement for treatment free beekeeping, so if it seems like a lot of work think of treating for mites/noseama ect ect vs setting up straight comb. Might have to change the extraction system a bit but that goes for any operation.


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## jt9610 (Apr 20, 2010)

jmgi said:


> My hives will stay in their yards, no moving for me. I have been thinking of compromising and using wired foundation for the honey supers so they can stand up to extracting a bit better.


No need to compromise. Wire the empty frame horizontally, using all four sets of holes so that you end up with four horizontal wires accross the empty frame. Then crimp the wires and insert a guide in the top bar. Insert this foundationless frame between two well-drawn frames of brood, and the bees will draw out the prettiest comb you could ask for. They will incorporate the crimped wires into their comb, and plaster their comb securely on and all over the guide and top bar. The result is a frame of comb that you can work exactly like any other. 

This is for deep foundationless frames. For mediums and shallows the process is the same but the number of wires can be fewer.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm going to start wiring all my medium honey super frames so they hold up better in the extractor. Which brings up another question, is a radial extractor easier on foundationless comb than the other type of extractor, I can't think of what it is called right now? Seems like it would be, because you wouldn't have the centrifugal force of the honey on the backside of the comb blowing it out.


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## jt9610 (Apr 20, 2010)

Jeffrey Todd said:


> What do I dislike about it? One thing only: it lacks strength during handling and extraction.
> 
> I have not extracted yet so this may be right, but I have my doubts. I wire my foundationless using all four sets of holes and crimp the wires, leaving four horizontal wires plus a very stout guide set into the top bar. The bees have drawn them out and (even as new wax) they are as solid as the frames drawn on Duragilt. I can handle both exactly the same.
> 
> Why does everyone assume that foundationless means wireless? The bees drawn their comb right over whatever wires you wish to put there.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Which brings up another question, is a radial extractor easier on foundationless comb than the other type of extractor, I can't think of what it is called right now? Seems like it would be, because you wouldn't have the centrifugal force of the honey on the backside of the comb blowing it out. _

The other extractor is a tangential. With a tangential extractor, the comb is up against a metal cage which supports the comb from blowing out.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Countryboy said:


> The other extractor is a tangential. With a tangential extractor, the comb is up against a metal cage which supports the comb from blowing out.


But you have to be gentle removing the comb from the extractor because it pressed against the mesh and sticks there (almost like a suction). If you pull too hard to get it off, even my crimp wire wax frames will pull out. I agree though that it is probably a toss up as to which would cause more damage, but I can't imagine using a tangential extractor for 300 hives.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Let's see. 300 hives. Assuming deeps (which I would be using mediums... but we'll be conservitive) and assuming five boxes and assuming ten frame boxes, thats 10 frames times 5 boxes times 300 hives. That's 15,000 frames. How many of you have ever wired 15,000 frames and put wax in 15,000 frames? THAT is a lot of work.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

No wonder I did not have afternoons to myself. I am so glad we have plastic to just snap in now. Running horizontal wires on natural foundation was pretty good. I even used those little brass eyelets instead of staples across the end bars. Frames with foundation lasted much longer than natural comb so there was actually less work to do. I only made a couple supers a day.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> If foundationless is for chemical free wax, you may be disappointed. They are even finding chemicals in hives exclusively on organic farms. Silly bees go wherever they want to forage. There was a presentation or two at ABF in Orlando this year on chemicals in beeswax. Ozone is the only sure way to remove bad stuff from beeswax.


95% of the chemicals in beeswax are put there by beekeepers themselves -- it is a matter of concentration.


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## Michael Brown (Jul 18, 2010)

Hi,

When going foundationless and assuming 1 1/4" frame spacing I can see how this would work well in the brood chamber. When using these same width frames in the honey supers would you then remove a frame or two to space them out wider after the initial comb is drawn? 

My concern would be whether or not the comb would be drawn out far enough to uncap for extracting when using 1 1/4" frame spacing.

I'm new at this so I'm just trying to understand!

Michael


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would space them wider in the supers, probably 9 to a 10 frame box, or 7 to an 8 frame box, but probably after they are drawn unless they are trying to build them fatter already...


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## Michael Brown (Jul 18, 2010)

Michael,

Thanks for the reply. I'll try spacing them wider in the honey supers after they're drawn per your advice.

I'm planning on staring 2 new hives next year with all medium supers, unlimited broodnest, foundationless frames, and top entrances.

I'm also ordering some of the comb guide frames from Walter T Kelly Co. Can't wait to give them a try!

Thanks,

MB


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