# Does venom immunotherapy (VIT) work? (I need real world advice)



## pisymbol

Hi my name is Alexander, I live in NJ and I have been a beek for about 4-5 years now. I'm 36 years old.

Up until last week, I never had more than a very tiny local reaction to bee stings. Think mosquito bite.

But last week I got stung 2-3 times picking up a deep after installing a swarm into a new medium (friend caught the swarm, he does deeps, my wife and I do mediums). In any event, I had a systemic reaction this time: Hives started to develop all over my body, itching on my palms and everywhere else (EVERYWHERE ELSE), and generally feelings of anxiety. I had no shortness of breath though.

In any event, I went to the local clinic, was given some steroids and an EPI shot. In about 5-7 minutes all was right with the world again (though I was out for the rest of the day - note an EPI shot is not pleasant affair either).

I came back from the allergist and a venom test showed that I react to only 1/1000th of a bee sting (minor redness, itching). Bummer. I'm sure the blood work will confirm. My wife already has gone through this and she is allergic as well (though its a heavy localized reaction, very painful).

Allergist claims that Venom Immunotherapy (VIT) can potentially cure my allergy or at least keep the reaction localized permanently. We were told different things by different allergists (one Dr claimed it good for only ONE sting, while another said it will help you build up resistance to multiple stings - I think the challenge sting is 100mcg which is equivalent to two honey bee stings from Googling around).

Has anyone gone through VIT? What were your results?

Cheers!


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## njrunner

I'm very interested in hearing the responses to this one. I am in NJ also and just had a systemic reaction to one sting yesterday. I am a second year beek. I'm seeing an allergist next week.


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## winevines

pisymbol said:


> Hi my name is Alexander, I live in NJ and I have been a beek for about 4-5 years now. I'm 36 years old.
> 
> 
> Has anyone gone through VIT? What were your results?


yes- although I just had the large local reaction diagnosis not the anaphylactic one. I used to get a sting and swell increasingly worse over 3 days. Several times I took steroids. I went through the shots for 4 years (which may have been 1 year more than necessary), wore gloves for 3 years, and now I work gloveless and get many stings in the season and do very well. Of course a sting to the head or face or something swells badly. If I get a lot of stings, like more than 20 in a day, which is very rare, I will take zyrtec first and then even benedryl if I feel worried just to be sure. I have heard of others who have had great success with the desentisization. I think one thing you might consider, but folks who had real systemic reactions are the best ones to inform you, is - is there a need once you are done with the allergy shots to stung a little all year long. This is my first year off of the shots, and I am planning on a sting a month during Fall and Winter.
I also used to always tell someone where I was going to the bee yard and have the phone.


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## Allen Martens

Venom immunotherapy has worked well for me.

I had a severe anaphylactic reaction at age 10. Unconscious in about 10 minutes and rush to the hospital.

Began desensitization treatments program in about 1980. Back then the program was in its infancy and after building up to the equivalent of 2 stings, I was stung once a day for 2 weeks and then the interval was slowly increased to a month between stings. I did this for 20 years, got slack and didn't sting myself for a year. My allergy tests showed I was still allergic but my allergist said that I should go home and try stinging my self because he couldn't believe I was still allergic after 20 years of stings. Needless to say i stung myself very close to a hospital. Fortunately no reaction but my arm did swell quite a bit.

This was around 2000 and I have been keeping bees since. Stings are no issue for me now. No reaction and no swelling. I can take 20 - 30 stings a day no problem and do so multiple times during summer. I do try to sting myself once a month in winter just to be safe.

Out of curiosity Alexander, was it a while since your last sting? 

I would encourage you to give VIT a shot. Real peace of mind not having to worry about reacting.


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## pisymbol

Allen Martens said:


> Out of curiosity Alexander, was it a while since your last sting?


I honestly don't get stung much per year because I wear a jacket and veil. But it was about 2-3 weeks ago since the last time I got stung (I picked up a piece of burr comb and crushed in my hand, I had no idea a bee was still in there, she stung me). That sting was interesting because I had almost zero reaction for the first 48 hours and then one day it got really itchy and swelled a little before ultimately going down. But before that, it was probably about a year or so (last season I'm not sure I got stung at all in fact - our bees are very, very gentle - they bump more than sting).

Then of course I had my systemic reaction from just 2-3 stings (I had my tee shirt on and was just picking up my friend's deep to zonk in the truck - I thought if I get stung, great, I could use it - or not).


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## pisymbol

I'd be curious what your allergist says about VIT treatment and if it's effective among his or her patients.


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## pisymbol

njrunner said:


> I'm very interested in hearing the responses to this one. I am in NJ also and just had a systemic reaction to one sting yesterday. I am a second year beek. I'm seeing an allergist next week.


I'd be curious what your allergist says about VIT treatment and if it's effective among his or her patients.


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## njrunner

pisymbol said:


> I'd be curious what your allergist says about VIT treatment and if it's effective among his or her patients.


I will definitely report back. I will be very disappointed if I have to give up the bees.


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## Beelosopher

pisymbol said:


> I'd be curious what your allergist says about VIT treatment and if it's effective among his or her patients.


I had read that if the treatment is completed in its full cycle there is something like a 99.9% chance it works. I read that on the internet so it must be true. Interested in this as well.


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## Joseph Clemens

It has been many decades, since I last read the book, but I'm fairly sure that A. I. Root, one of the father's of modern beekeeping, and early author of "ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture", was hypersensitive/allergic to bee stings, and developed and successfully used a desensitization regimen on himself, describing it in his book.

I'm afraid, I enjoy beekeeping, so much, if I did develop hypersensitivity to bee venom, I'm afraid I would likely join those who have perished from the experience. Similarly, I enjoy seafood and shellfish, so much, the same thing would likely be my undoing.


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## Joseph Clemens

Of course, I also feel that many suggestions to use various sting-proof suits, are somewhat misdirected. They may be valid, if one were to be so cautious as to wear such a suit, 24/7/365. And since honey bees are quite ubiquitous and unpredictable in their behavior, either carrying an epi pen and phone capable of reaching emergency responders, no matter where you are, would also be essential. And if one is also determined to continue working closely with honey bees, as A. I. Root was, desensitization therapy, would likely be the best way to go. I am the type to develop hypersensitivity to things - for instance penicillin amd bandage adhesive, I experienced a very strong anaphylactic reaction to penicillin, and whenever I wear a bandaid for more than 12 hours, it increases the severity of that injury, by causing what appears to be a second degree burn, where the adhesive contacted my skin.

I practice desensitization therapy, with bee venom -- I let myself get stung several times, almost every day. In junior high, I had often used penicillin, therapeutically, for frequent bouts of Strep and Bronchitis, but it had been nearly a decade after that, when I experienced the adverse reaction. I was in the U.S. Navy, then and it was administered orally, for a foot infection. Oh boy, the foot infection was soon, the least of my worries.


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## Intheswamp

Joseph Clemens said:


> I'm afraid, I enjoy beekeeping, so much, if I did develop hypersensitivity to bee venom, I'm afraid I would likely join those who have perished from the experience. Similarly, I enjoy seafood and shellfish, so much, the same thing would likely be my undoing.


Joseph, regarding AI Roots desensitization therapy. Was that info in a volume of ABC/XYZ or in a different book, if you recall?

I'm curious if some of the bad reactions that are listed here could have been caused by sting location. Possibly the stinger hitting a main vein or possibly even an artery that allowed the venom to travel over the body? Maybe even a nerve of some sort? I've been stung a few times on the back of the hand that caused (relative to the size of a bee stinger) a good bit of bleeding. Seems these stings got a little puffier than other stings on the hands, but nothing systemic. 

Ed


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## Ryan Williamson

Years ago I developed allergic reactions to bee stings. A sting on my finger would lead to face swelling and a drop in blood pressure. Quite scary to say the least but thankfully I never experienced the dreaded tight throat. I turned to an allergist that practiced the Johns Hopkins method. After two months my reactions were very slight and now two years later I often can't find where I was stung 30 minutes later. I recently quit going to the allergist and instead sting myself with two FULL stings once a month....which is the equivalent of the maintenance shot I was getting. 
For me immunotherapy saved my beekeeping hobby/business and I highly recommend it. 

Ryan


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## Joseph Clemens

Intheswamp said:


> Joseph, regarding AI Roots desensitization therapy. Was that info in a volume of ABC/XYZ or in a different book, if you recall?
> 
> Ed


I am sure that it was in one of the older editions of the book, "ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture", one authored by A.I. Root, himself.


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## Bee Bliss

Just want to let people know that bee venom does travel in the bloodstream, direct hit or not. Apitherapy can benefit even areas that are not directly treated with bee stings.


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## Intheswamp

Bee Bliss said:


> Just want to let people know that bee venom does travel in the bloodstream, direct hit or not. Apitherapy can benefit even areas that are not directly treated with bee stings.


Bee Bliss, I would imagine, though, that venom injected into the bloodstream will cause a faster and possibly more intense reaction than an injection in the muscle or fatty tissue. I'm sure both will be beneficial if the person is not allergic.  Matter of fact, I haven't been stung much this year, looks like I need to provoke a couple of bees. 

Joseph, I have a 1935 copy of ABC/XYZ and found the specific text on page 667. I don't have time to read it right now, but will tonight. Thanks for pointing it out to me!

Ed


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## jla

I am doing VIT, I receive two shots a month. Down from 4 a week. If I get stung 6 times or more I still experience respiratory problems. My allergist recommended that I take zyrtec immediately after a sting and keep the epi pen handy at all times. I always suit up and double layer my legs. I try to be extra careful but you can't predict the ladies.


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## karu

Somewhat off topic...Somewhere on this forum or elsewhere I read that the real problem is anxiety, and people who have a systemic reaction mostly get hurt by anxiety and its aftereffects... I had some bad reaction to the benadryl last year, which I took after receiving too many very painful stings and also I suppose I was overheated, so basically didn't feel well and thought that I am reacting to the bee stings, so here comes the benadryl....About 3 hours later I get some funny reaction - shaking all over...and then a panic attack, no shortness of breath or hives....Well, obviously thinking now, that 3-4 hours after the last bee sting it wouldn't be a systemic reaction, but try to tell it to your overheated brain when something like that happens...Trip to the emergency room, blah-blah-blah....Going back to my bees couple weeks later and cannot take one sting without getting a terrible anxiety, almost panic attack episodes. It got better eventually, and I am back on track, although couple days ago the bees were very upset and I had to put on those horrible gloves again. Bottom line - your mind can be an enemy in that kind of situation. Now trying to remind myself every time to stay cool....:ws:


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## BeePappy

I just went to an allergist today and took the series of shots to verify that I am allergic to Honey Bee venom. After discussing the desensitization treatments with the doctor, I cannot wait to get started. It sounds very promising from what I was told. In the meantime, I'm always fully suited, with phone and Epi pen.


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## njrunner

BeePappy said:


> I just went to an allergist today and took the series of shots to verify that I am allergic to Honey Bee venom. After discussing the desensitization treatments with the doctor, I cannot wait to get started. It sounds very promising from what I was told. In the meantime, I'm always fully suited, with phone and Epi pen.


Very excited to hear this. You are still going to work with the bees before the treatment is complete?


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## njrunner

Ok. Reporting back. Tested positive yesterday for all five venoms. Starting immunotherapy shots next week. The doctor was very encouraging. He told me I didn't need to give up my hobby. He said it is 95% effective, but he's never seen anyone have a systemic reaction after completing the treatment. I purchased a full-suit (ultrabreeze) and have Epi pens. However, I am still a little nervous to be around the bees at this point. Did anyone start working with the bees again before treatment?


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## Ryan Williamson

I worked my bees in full suit with gloves being very very careful to use smoke and not piss my bees off. I thankfully was able to avoid any stings until I got up to the "maintenance shot" level. My doc would not give me shots the same day I got a real sting. After a few months I stopped wearing gloves and now I almost try to get stung once a week....which is not a problem at all this time of year!


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## Eddie Honey

I had the exact same thing happen 2 years ago . The hospital didn't give me EPI shot because breathing wasn't affected. I talked to my family doc and she advised me against immunotherapy saying, "why knowingly load your system with a known allergen that can have life threatening effects? That's like playing Russian Roulette."

I fired her and hired a new family doctor. Surely he would agree with me. Nope! He said the same thing. He said wear the best suit on the market (I have Ultrabreeze), keep an Epi, Benadryl, Pred, Zyrtec, on hand. I still want to see an allergist and at least talk to them.
I've been stung 3-4 times since without reaction. My blood tested at 0.6 for honey bee. How about yours?


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## njrunner

Eddie Honey said:


> I had the exact same thing happen 2 years ago . The hospital didn't give me EPI shot because breathing wasn't affected. I talked to my family doc and she advised me against immunotherapy saying, "why knowingly load your system with a known allergen that can have life threatening effects? That's like playing Russian Roulette."
> 
> I fired her and hired a new family doctor. Surely he would agree with me. Nope! He said the same thing. He said wear the best suit on the market (I have Ultrabreeze), keep an Epi, Benadryl, Pred, Zyrtec, on hand. I still want to see an allergist and at least talk to them.
> I've been stung 3-4 times since without reaction. My blood tested at 0.6 for honey bee. How about yours?


I went through the series of under the skin shots. I reacted on the third of four shots which increased concentration at each level. I don't recall the concentration though. I'm really surprised they advised against immunotherapy. My response to the doctors would be, why continue to expose myself to something when there is a treatment which can totally reverse my condition!


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## Eddie Honey

Got stung 4 hours ago while sitting in my office chair! Apparently there was a honey bee on the underside of my forearm and when I placed it on the armrest of my office chair she tagged me. So far just a 3-4" local reaction. I took a zyrtec and a pred.


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## Michael Bush

ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture 1945 edition under the heading of "Stings" page 595 last paragraph on the page:

"An interesting case came under observation. H.H. Root, on the editorial staff of this work, when as a boy he was stung, became so affected that his body would break out in great red blotches; his breathing grew difficult, and his heart began to pound. It was really a question whether there was not danger of losing his life. Nevertheless, he was very desirous of engaging in beekeeping, and determined to work with bees. A live bee was pressed on the back of his hand until it merely pierced his skin with the sting. It was removed immediately, and since no serious effect followed another single prick was administered after four or five days. This was continued for some three or four weeks, when the patient began to have a sort of itching sensation all over his body. The hypodermic injections of bee-sting poison were then discontinued. At the end of a month they were repeated at intervals of four or five days. Again after two or three weeks the itching sensation came on, but it was less pronounced. The patient was given a rest of about a month, when the does were repeated as before. He then went away to school and was not back for eight or nine months. On his return the applications were given again, when it was plainly noticeable that the after-effects were becoming markedly less. He then went out into the bee-yard and was stung occasionally, but beyond a small local swelling, there was no unpleasant effect.

"Some months afterward he was assisting at one of the yards when, without warning a colony of bees that was being handled made a most furious attack on both the men. Young Root received a dozen stings all over his body. He had neither veil nor gloves, for the other man was doing the work with the bees. He expected serious consequences; but, greatly to his surprise and gratification, no unpleasant effects followed. What was more, there was no swelling. It should be remembered that H.H. Root used to be so seriously affected that a single sting would cause his parents to worry, for they feared he would not be able to survive the shock. He now handles bees with the same freedom that any experienced beekeeper does."


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## BeePappy

njrunner said:


> Very excited to hear this. You are still going to work with the bees before the treatment is complete?


Odd, I just got notified today of your response.
In answer to your question. Yes. I've captured and housed two swarms, done some regular maintenance, feeding, pulling supers, etc. All in complete cover head to toe. I also have an Epi pen with me at all times, even when not in the bee yard. I have had two shots so far, so just the beginning of the treatment.
Continuing with beekeeping, sure at this time there are risks. Just like sky diving there are risks, or racing motorcycles or Nascar. It's a choice to continue on with something I love to do. That's how I look at it, I choose to live what life I have. The VIT will get me back to a more "normal" reaction if it works. Some may think I'm stubborn or stupid, or maybe both. And I'm sure there are those who understand.


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## njrunner

BeePappy said:


> Odd, I just got notified today of your response.
> In answer to your question. Yes. I've captured and housed two swarms, done some regular maintenance, feeding, pulling supers, etc. All in complete cover head to toe. I also have an Epi pen with me at all times, even when not in the bee yard. I have had two shots so far, so just the beginning of the treatment.
> Continuing with beekeeping, sure at this time there are risks. Just like sky diving there are risks, or racing motorcycles or Nascar. It's a choice to continue on with something I love to do. That's how I look at it, I choose to live what life I have. The VIT will get me back to a more "normal" reaction if it works. Some may think I'm stubborn or stupid, or maybe both. And I'm sure there are those who understand.


Thanks for responding. I completely understand your decision. I just got my first shot yesterday. I have been around the bees twice now in full suit with epi-pen at hand.


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## Agis Apiaries

Hi all,

Just joined the forum, and saw this post and thought I would answer.

At the age of 8 (am now 48 yoa) I took a HB sting and had a systemic reaction, hives and airway constriction. I had to be treated with EPI to stop the reaction (and survive). I went through two years of VIT. I was stung again at age 14 with a small local reaction (LR). I was stung on the head again at around 17 yoa and again at around 30 yoa, with a small LR. I was stung a couple of months ago twice in a day (on the ear and the arm) with a small LR. So yes, the VIT definately helped.

However, a week and a half ago, I was stung on the finger while working a hive and had a systemic reaction. I developed hives all over with redness and itching. There was no airway constriction. I promptly self treated with Benadryl which stopped and reversed the reaction within about 20 minutes. I called and scheduled an appointment with an allergist and will likely go through VIT again. I guess it can wear off after 40 years! I was stung twice in the past two days, each time with just a local reaction (redness and localised swelling), but no systemic reaction. I'll start wearing gloves until the shots get underway, but will definately not be giving up my bees! 

Rick
Black Forest, Colorado


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## SeaCucumber

I heard that people who don't have the right bacteria in their intestines are more likely to have allergies. I don't have time to look it up on pubmed.gov. You could do VIT and make your bacteria healthy. Bacteria health can be inexpensive.
What to do:
Eat for your bacteria. I'd have to look this up, but I know that adequate fiber is important.
Take extra care of your microbes when taking antibiotics. Avoid antibiotic situations. Don't eat too much antibiotic meat.
Replace damaged microflora: 
- stool transplant: most effective, could be cheep, the DIY equipment is <$10
The cost is mostly in getting the donor's poop tested. 
- probiotics that you ingest: less effective, uncertain effectiveness


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## Agis Apiaries

Hi all,

See my post above as "BlackForestBees" (we changed to Agis Apiaries now that we have formed an LLC). I had my allergist do a rush protocol which got me to my maintenance dose in less than two months. The other thing I had him to was build me up to a maintenance dose twice that of a regular paitient. Normally they would give you 100 micrograms of venom, once a month. For beekeepers, there has been a recommendation of doing 200 micrograms, given that beeks are much more likely to get stung, and multiple times. An average field sting from a bee can produce between 5 and 50 micrograms of venom into your system. So, my maintenance dose is equivalent to 4 to 40 stings all in one shot.

I took two stings last week a minute apart. The first gave me very very minor swelling (about an inch wide) with some redness around the site, with very minor itching at the site, all of which went away within 24 hours. The other sting gave me a dime size spot of redness and that was all. I'm happy with the results! Those were the first two stings of the season, so I epxected a little reaction. We'll see how it goes once I get more stings through the season.


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## gnor

Michael Palmer has written that beekeepers' families who don't get stung, but are exposed to trace amounts of venom from clothing, bee suits, etc., are at great risk of developing an anaphylactic reaction. He had that experience with his own daughter, who didn't get stung, but he used to pick her up from daycare wearing his bee clothes. Maintains it's better to get your family stung once a month or so to prevent this.
My own experience is that I was never sensitive to bee stings until last year when my mentor and I were chased from the bee yard by a particularly nasty hive. I was stung 15 or 20 times, experiencing a strong local reaction. Swelling and itching lasted several days, but no respiratory symptoms. That strong local reaction lasted for the rest of the Summer. 
I haven't been stung this year yet, but I am wearing protection, and try to limit the number of stings at any one time to see what happens.


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