# Maintaining amount of hives



## Mr.Beeman

Do nothing.... they will maintain themsleves through swarming. Feral bees have done this since the beginning of time.


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## mike haney

i would suggest 3 nucs from splits every summer that you can overwinter. combine back in the spring-if you have no winter die outs. repeat every year. this also provides you with replacement queens should you lose one or want to replace one that has aggressive offspring.


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## rlsiv

You can always continue to manage swarming (and maximize honey production) by making splits, and specifically by making Nucs. And you can sell those Nucs easily. Its a win-win.


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## Pamela White

Thank ya'll so very much!!!!


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## mmiller

mike haney said:


> i would suggest 3 nucs from splits every summer that you can overwinter. combine back in the spring-if you have no winter die outs. repeat every year. this also provides you with replacement queens should you lose one or want to replace one that has aggressive offspring.


This is in my opinion your best option. It allows you to maintain the same numbers without spending money to purchase die off replacements. You could also sell the nucs in the spring if you didn't need them. Overwintered nucs sell easily.

Mike


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## wcubed

This thread distresses me. Pamela asked for a way to maintain constant colony count without splitting. 3 of 4 responses recommended splitting. Don't you folks read the question? The 4th response recommended doing nothing - a viable answer, if honey production is not a consideration. But five colonies implies honey production is a consideration - too many for just garden pollination.

Am also amazed how many beekeepers still think that splitting is the best answer for swarm prevention. Or, the only answer. Checkerboarding (CB) has been around for over 15 years and very few have tried it. CB beats splitting in so many ways, we will not go into all the advantages here, other than to report that it is simpler, cheaper, less work, and produces much more honey than any broodnest disturbance technique. An ideal way for Pamela to meet her objectives.

Several advantages are treated in more detail in the last few articles in Point of View, this site, from home page, scroll to the end.
Walt


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## bbrowncods

Five + three does not equal five.

CB has my vote as a option.


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## mike haney

starting 3 nucs is much simpler and easier to understand/implement for a BEGINNER than CB'ing,one of the reasons it has not spread.
having banked nuks has other advantages for the beginner,such as banked queens,swift replacements for winter losses, and the possibility of recouping some money spent getting started in bees.
better solution? can't say. certainly better suited for a BEGINNER.
Five + three does not equal five.-until you sell or combine them.


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## psfred

I think the question was how to maintain that number, and since everyone has at least occasional deadouts, you really should do a few splits in the summer and overwinter. I plan to, on top of doing a few splits for expansion and collect a few swarms.

There is always a market for good nucs, no need to add hives just because you have one.

Peter


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## hoodswoods

Pamela White said:


> Hello all,
> Just a quick question and I should have asked this long ago? If I have 5 hives that I start out with, how do I maintain them instead of splitting and making more if I just want to continue with 5???


A combination of birth and border/imigration control? I too have a limited space and time to devote, but have found that I need to figure on at least a 20% loss, so I am constantaly shuffling between one hive too many and one hive less (more like it), so always end up buying a spring nuc each year - when I have time, I plan on reading and implementing Michael Palmers wintering nuc practices. I'm sure that some of the suggestions given here work just fine - but I question that fixed number over each season.

BTW, I get hundreds of lbs of honey off my 5 'garden' hives each year.


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## Michael Palmer

bbrowncods said:


> Five + three does not equal five.


No, but 5 - 3 + 3 does. 5 hives into winter, lose three, make 3 nucs, have 5.


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## Michael Palmer

wcubed said:


> This thread distresses me. Pamela asked for a way to maintain constant colony count without splitting. 3 of 4 responses recommended splitting. Don't you folks read the question? The 4th response recommended doing nothing - a viable answer, if honey production is not a consideration. But five colonies implies honey production is a consideration - too many for just garden pollination.


How does Pamela make up her winter losses without splitting? And without some re-queening regimen...ie splitting and re-queening, how does she prevent africanization in Texas? 

5 are five times as much fun as 1.


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## wcubed

For the record, we don't have winter losses. Even better than that, we don't have weaklings in the spring. A little care in the fall insures uniformly good wintering. Yes, I know - you don't believe any of that, but it happens to be a fact. The input from GA on winter losses is an admission of neglect. Pamela, in central TX, could get the same results we do.

M. H. 
We agree that CB is perceived as complicated, but it is not. If the beginner's comprehension is taxed by alternating frames of honey and empty comb, he or she has serious mental problems, and should be constrained to quarters. 
And you contend that splitting/nucing is simpler? How many threads have you seen here where the attendent problems went awry? Queen problems, feeding/robbing, swarming, etc. Sorry, have to disagree on the relative simplicity.

Requeening is a different question. We also have no need to requeen, except to upgrade genetics. CBed colonies automatically supersede in the spring. That would lead to gradual Africanization in an area populated by mostly Africanized drones. Pamela would have to make the adjustment when the problem presents itself. Increased defensiveness would tell her when.

According to our records, about 5% of colonies fail to successfully supersede in the spring, and the potential for laying workers shows up while in main flow and when we are supering. Lifting off several supers to check for queenright is a nuisance through that period, but a check is made promptly at harvest. If laying workers are found at that time, we have a fix for that problem. The concept of addition of a frame of brood at weekly intervals for 3 weeks originated here. (Perhaps independently of others) If my occurance rate of 5% holds for central TX, Pamela could expect to apply this concept once every four years.

Walt


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## Michael Bush

I would go into winter with 7 and if you have 5 in the spring you'll be even. If you have 3 you can do some splits. If you have 7 you can do some combines, just as the flow starts.


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## hoodswoods

wcubed said:


> The input from GA on winter losses is an admission of neglect.
> \Walt


A 33%+/- of loss across the board is not only a figment of my (our) imagination, but more of a matter of "neglect".

Why waste the resources, time, money and energy implementing proceedures to restore, maintain or increase our populations, when the simple act of CB solves all problems - environmental, weather, biological. viral, natural instincts... a genius in their own mind.

I reiterate that throwing bees in boxes and trying to maintain an exact number of hives year-to-year has been for many years, problematic - now apperently solved via CB.

MP - isn't it funny how some people just get under your skin? Raising bees as the majority of us have been doing for some hundred years or so, suddenly becomes neglect. I admire everyone who is passionate about it and continually strives for improvements, but labeling standard beekeeping practices as 'neglect' spreads a lot of blame across a lot of respected people over a number of many years.


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## wcubed

hoodswoods,
Don't think we said or implied that CB corrected the problems associated with winter losses. We did say 'care in the fall.' - not described. We considered opening a thread in Aug/Sept describing that care, but I do not enjoy the flac that a deviation to standard management always brings. So, we do not open many threads. The following short-form lists some of the improvements added to the full season management based on observation, in the order they were added:

Langstroth hive design affects comb usage in more than one way.
1. The bees don't "like" the break in functional comb between boxes. This results in reluctance to "jump the gap" in mutiple different circumstances.
2. Something about brood-rearing in a deep that distorts cluster shape - flat on the bottom and rounded at the top. You only see a round cluster when it's quite small.
3. The flat bottomed broodnest in conjunction with the gap of 1 above inhibits storing of the pollen reserve below, which is natural in the wild brood nest.
4. The bees much prefer to rear brood in a deep over a shallow.

Merging these observations, we elected to change wintering configuration to a deep and the rest all shallows. During the config. change, we were also testing the bottom "pollen box." We got lucky and the results proved to be better than we had any reason to expect. Took 2 years. When complete, the changes produced reliable wintering.

Queen loss: To avoid having the queen fall into the cold water collected on the bottom board, the hive is tilted slightly forward for positive bottom board drainage. No more overwinter queen loss.

This stuff is not a secret. It's available to all for free in POV. If you enjoy winter dead-outs and the joys of splitting/nucing, by all means ignore a way that produces more honey and takes less effort. No skin off my buns.

Do you see a minor discrepancy between your post and your tag line?
Walt


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## Michael Palmer

>>>Don't think we said or implied that CB corrected the problems associated with winter losses. We did say 'care in the fall.' - not described. We considered opening a thread in Aug/Sept describing that care, but I do not enjoy the flac that a deviation to standard management always brings. So, we do not open many threads.

Flac? You mean disagreement? Walt, if you tell others their beekeeping management is all wrong, you must expect some amount of questioning and challenge. 


>>The following short-form lists some of the improvements added to the full season management based on observation, in the order they were added:

Langstroth hive design affects comb usage in more than one way.
1. The bees don't "like" the break in functional comb between boxes. This results in reluctance to "jump the gap" in mutiple different circumstances.

Says you. In 40 years I have seen no evidence of this. What's your proof that the bees don't "like" the bee space between brood boxes and/or supers. 

>>2. Something about brood-rearing in a deep that distorts cluster shape - flat on the bottom and rounded at the top. You only see a round cluster when it's quite small.

Distorts cluster shape?? Really?? And what possible problem would come from your flat bottomed clusters. Hey, just yesterday I was looking at clusters from the bottom up on a dozen multiple story hives...2 deeps and a medium. They were about 8" from the bottom board, and nothing flat about them.

>>3. The flat bottomed broodnest in conjunction with the gap of 1 above inhibits storing of the pollen reserve below, which is natural in the wild brood nest.

I too find pollen in the bottom box. Even in my multiple deep box colonies.

>>4. The bees much prefer to rear brood in a deep over a shallow.

But not in a deep over a deep? So my colonies in 2 deeps, 2 deeps and a medium, 3 deeps, 3 deeps and 2 mediums, 4 mediums, 6 mediums, 2 deep and 3 mediums...that have 9, 10, 12, and 14 frames of brood at the start of dandelion, prefer your setup. Really. Could have fooled me Walt.

>>Merging these observations, we elected to change wintering configuration to a deep and the rest all shallows. During the config. change, we were also testing the bottom "pollen box." We got lucky and the results proved to be better than we had any reason to expect. Took 2 years. When complete, the changes produced reliable wintering.

Glad your bees winter 100%, and your swarming is 0%. I'm not that good. I only had an 8% loss last winter, and surely I had some swarming.


>>This stuff is not a secret. It's available to all for free in POV. If you enjoy winter dead-outs and the joys of splitting/nucing, by all means ignore a way that produces more honey and takes less effort. No skin off my buns.

Personally, I do enjoy making nucs and raising queens and all that bee business. Enjoy making honey, too. Tons, and tons, and tons of it...with deep boxes and medium boxes with that bee space between them all. Sure glad my bees can jump Walt, or they'd be forever resigned to living in the bottom box.

Walt, I'm sorry for the long winded disagreement, but if you're going to tell me I'm wrong, I'm not going to sit here and listen to your dogma. If you want to include some science i your claims, then we can at least have an intelligent debate. And by the way...who's WE?


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## sqkcrk

Pamela White said:


> how do I maintain them instead of splitting and making more if I just want to continue with 5???


I guess you will have to buy in nucs or packages when you have Winterloss.


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## sqkcrk

wcubed said:


> Queen loss: To avoid having the queen fall into the cold water collected on the bottom board, the hive is tilted slightly forward for positive bottom board drainage. No more overwinter queen loss.
> 
> Walt



How did you observe that queens had fallen into water on the bottom board?


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## Eddie Honey

i would be even more distressed that a thread on beesource caused me distress in the first place  but that's for you to deal with lol....



wcubed said:


> This thread distresses me. Pamela asked for a way to maintain constant colony count without splitting. 3 of 4 responses recommended splitting. Don't you folks read the question? The 4th response recommended doing nothing - a viable answer, if honey production is not a consideration. But five colonies implies honey production is a consideration - too many for just garden pollination.
> 
> Am also amazed how many beekeepers still think that splitting is the best answer for swarm prevention. Or, the only answer. Checkerboarding (CB) has been around for over 15 years and very few have tried it. CB beats splitting in so many ways, we will not go into all the advantages here, other than to report that it is simpler, cheaper, less work, and produces much more honey than any broodnest disturbance technique. An ideal way for Pamela to meet her objectives.
> 
> Several advantages are treated in more detail in the last few articles in Point of View, this site, from home page, scroll to the end.
> Walt



OP, you can just do nothing but if you have some dead-outs then you won't have 5 anymore. You said you didn't want to split so I imagine you could just keep adding boxes and have an unlimited brood nest and gauge how big each hive desires to become each Spring/Summer. If some die off you could capture your own swarms and have replacement colonies.


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## Michael Palmer

wcubed said:


> 4. The bees much prefer to rear brood in a deep over a shallow. Walt


But not two deeps over the shallow? Evil you say! I must be seein' things...12 frames of brood in two deeps over a medium, with 150 pounds of honey on top. But I must be wrong. Bees don't do it that way, 'cause they resist jumping the bee space. Must be sumthin' else makin' by back feel as it does today. 

Now, with your configuration, and my queens, I can almost guarantee the bees would be in the trees. Correct me if I'm wrong...you have a shallow, a deep, and a shallow as your broodnest. From your POV, the bottom shallow is pollen. The top shallow is honey that will be CB'd at tree bloom. The deep...a frame of honey at each sidewall. A frame of pollen next to each of those. Then there are six frames left for brood rearing. Have I got it correct? 6 frames for brood rearing?

That would never do here.


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## sqkcrk

I wish I could draw a picture. I will try w/ words. When I was taught about reversing brood boxes, deeps, as a means of controlling swarming tendency and to prep the colony for early flows the illustration was a brood pattern in the shape of a ball, soccer ball size maybe, which existed from just under the top bar of the top deep and down into the top of the bottom deep. 

Imagine two deep frames, one above the other, and a circle starting at the top, just under the top bar of the top frame, extending down below the top bar of the bottom frame. That is what I often observe and what can be found in my hives right now. So, what's this flat bottom wcubed speaks of? If that isn't too challenging?


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## Joel

I'm curious to find the research that says few have tried checkerboarding? Almost every beek I know, and I know many, have expressed interest it in, many have used is successfully, I promote it and use and I still do nucs and splits for maintaining numbers, increase, sales and for the same practical and fun reasons as both Mikes expressed. One methodolgy that is successful in one's operation we all know may not be successful elsewhere due to a wide varitey of factors which include experiance at the top of the list. Beekeepers have many reasons and goals for keeping bees and with the same processes get different results.

I would suggest Pamela visit Walt's exceptional resources and practice checkerboarding as a great managment tool, but in the event as a newbie she does not have the perfect result of 5% losses, which is the absolute rare execption that results from years of experiance, intense study and disciplined practices as in Walts work, she's not facing 5 deadouts from inexperiance or factors beyond her control. Today unfortunately it's not the norm so she would be wise to also have a couple of nucs in reserve. A great deal can be learned from this very simple manipulation and "birthing" a new colony and watching it grow is fun and rewarding. Splitting and combining splits with hives in late spring is in effect making an instant 2 queen unit which studies by Dunham and Faraar for similar 2 queen production increased honey production in the study area by a minimum of 40lbs. per hive and as much as 100 lbs a hive in a season. So in addition to the goal of maintaining a set number of hives, if you do winter well you are increasing production for the following year by wintering nucs. Sounds like a win/win situation to me.


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## sqkcrk

Pamela White said:


> Hello all,
> If I have 5 hives that I start out with, how do I maintain them instead of splitting and making more if I just want to continue with 5???


Are you averse to splitting in order to replace winterloss?


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## cg3

Or splitting and selling the extras?


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## wcubed

Plenty flac. Will work back up from the last, since it's in sight.
sqkcrk,#23
In the southeast, many local beekeepers winter in a deep and super. In late winter, the brood nest expands to fill the deep and the super is still filled with capped honey. (their reserve) The colony will often complete swarm preps entirely within the deep and not disturb their reserve in the super above. In that case, the brood nest will will be flat across bottom bars between the stores in outside frames. It's the bottom of the functional comb. No place to store the pollen reserve below. The same thing happens in the double deep. Our bees winter in the bottom deep and the temporary expansion into the upper to rear swarm bees does not alter the flat bottomed nest in the lower. The backfilling of swarm preps refills the upper with nectar and brood is limited to the lower deep for the rest of the season. Still no place to store the pollen reserve below.
It's a slightly different scenario for the northern locations where the broodnest is in the upper deep and the lower is basically empty in late winter. Reversal puts the upper broodnest at the bottom to allow for expansion into the empty. Locally, the broodnest still expands across the bottom to the bottom bars and there is typically no pollen reserve stored below.

MP #22
Item 4. was poorly worded and misleading. What it was intended to say is that if a colony is given a choice of a deep or shallow to rear brood, they will choose the deep. Their choice of a deep instead of medium is not as severe as for a shallow.

Since I use 9 frames from bottom board to cover, my brood frames are typically only 5 frames between frames of stores. If I had problems with wintering, I might tighten up the nest to get more brood cells within a given cluster size.

You seem to keep forgetting that my spring brood nest is not limited to the deep. The brood nest expands up through several shallows. My total broodnest at peak build up would rival yours.

Back to pg 1
Walt


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## sqkcrk

And drowned queens on bottom boards?


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## wcubed

Still working backward.
sqkcrk, #20
Are conclusions from observations outlawed? When 6 queens were lost in one winter, and all were slightly tilted to the rear, thought it reasonable to assume there was a connection.

MP #18
Have yet to say you are wrong. On another thread I said that you and I both report what we see and they do differ in many ways. Because they are different is not necessarily a disagreement. Did you miss that post?

"We" includes a friend and neighbor, Harold, who acquired the last of my colonies a few years ago. For the first time in several years, I have a combined colony in my backyard. An experiment that you may hear more about if it turns out well.

Won't go into the differences in what we see. Some are quite subtle and you have seen them for so long that for you, they are normal. (a guess)

Walt


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## sqkcrk

wcubed said:


> Still working backward.
> sqkcrk, #20
> Are conclusions from observations outlawed? When 6 queens were lost in one winter, and all were slightly tilted to the rear, thought it reasonable to assume there was a connection.
> 
> Walt



Conclusions from observatiopns are not outlawed. But when I ask you to tell me what you saw and explain what led you to that conclusion there is no need on your part to automatically think that I think you are full of something. It was a question asked for edification and a chance for you to illustrate your observation.

I have never seen that. Which doesn't mean anything other than I haven't seen it. I may not be as observant as others. It may not occur to me to look. I don't know I just haven't seen some of the many things you have, so I ask.

By the way, I believe you saw what you say you saw and your conclusion to tilt the hive to address the problem is probably the right reaction. I wonder why or how often queens drop to the bottom board?


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## wcubed

sqkcrk,
I would guess it happens frequently. Instinct. In the wild brood nest the comb is anchored continuously down both sides and over the top where it started with no "communication" holes. I would think that their natural instinct would be to go to the bottom of the comb to change sides for each comb. The Queen, with the heavy rear end could easily get pried loose, negotiating the turn. Falling the 3/4 to 7/8 inch jump up space would not hurt her, except in the case of collected, instantly-chilling water. Note that the lower edge of natural comb is not squared off and tapers to an edge that makes the turn almost a 180.
Walt


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## squarepeg

pamela's biggest challenge to checkerboarding her five hives that she is starting out with is that she may not have enough drawn comb in reserve to do it with.

i went from 4 hives at the beginning of last season to 10 last fall by splitting and adding nucs. 

9 of 10 made it through last winter, but i only had comb in reserve to checkerboard one of them this spring. i realize this is only one, but this colony did not swarm and produced very well.

of the remaining 8 that were not checkerboarded, i was able to catch 2 of them prior to swarming by noticing the swarm preps described by walt in his papers. i.e. first the backfilling of empty cells just above the upper broodnest 'arch', and then backfilling in the broodnest proper. i split these two hives prior to their swarming.

the other 6 were hives were not expected to swarm, because they were overwintered nucs ranging from a few frames of bees to one deep of bees. they went on to swarm anyway, (i wasn't watching them for that, but i was able to catch 4 back).

i am looking forward to being able to checkerboard more hives next season, now that i have surplus drawn comb.


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## ralittlefield

Pamela White said:


> instead of splitting and making more if I just want to continue with 5???


You have started quite a discussion here!  Did you get your answer yet? In my opinion you do not need to worry about keeping your number of hives down. That will take care of its self. Is your concern that you don't want the expense of more equipment to make the splits? If so, you can utilize equipment from colonies that fail. If your concern is the process of splitting, you may eventually find yourself without bees or buying more bees.


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## sqkcrk

sqkcrk said:


> Are you averse to splitting in order to replace winterloss?


Pamela seems to be busy w/ other things.

I asked this question because I suspect it is possible she wants to keep bees w/out having to deal w/ them intimately.


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## ralittlefield

sqkcrk said:


> it is possible she wants to keep bees w/out having to deal w/ them intimately.


I think that to be the case also. If so, keeping her number of hives down to 5 will be no problem for her, keeping it up to 5 may require buying more bees IMHO.


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## sqkcrk

That's why I suggested buying nucs or packages to replace deadouts.

More important to this Thread, how are we going to maintain one Pamela when we loose the first one?


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## cg3

Is there a minimum number of Pamelas to be sustainable?


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## delber

I have to confess that I didn't read all of the posts on page 2, but I have to ask a question. The desire to keep 5 hives. . . Please define this. Is that simply as stated 5 total hives, 5 production hives, or the space of 5 hives? You can put 3 nucs in a 10 frame deep with dividers in it. I started 2 this year as 2 frame deeps and they are going great now. (Well truth be told I started 3 but the third didn't turn out) There is GREAT value in my opinion to having nucs. In having the numbers. In my mind I'd consider 2 things. . . First off if the answer is the number of 5 hives, then to accomplish this you will need to catch swarms, or split, or buy once you have a deadout. (you will have them sometime) What I think would be better would be to keep 3 hives as production hives and have 4 or more nucs. Nucs expand well, but not super fast in my experience. My 2 frame nucs were in there for about a month before I gave them their third frame. Then about 2 weeks after that I inserted a drawn frame inbetween the others. (This was a Beautiful frame when it was all capped!!! Solid capped worker brood on a deep frame from top to bottom.) 

So bottom line for me I'd consider keeping 2-4 hives for production and 3-4 nucs. (minimum of 5 deep frames total. 6-8 frames would be better, or you can use 8 or 10 frame deeps and keep them on top of each other to use less space, but it does make it a bit of a pain to inspect)


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## MeriB

perhaps pamelas desire to hold the line at 5 hives is due to 1. A life/job, 2. a lack of space , 3.the inability to purchase more equipment or perhaps a desire to get more frames of comb to take better advantage of her flows. Ir was a very simple question. There was no information to draw any conclusions about her desire or ability to be intimate with her bees.


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## ralittlefield

MeriB said:


> Ir was a very simple question. There was no information to draw any conclusions about her desire or ability to be intimate with her bees.


Okay, so how do you answer her? How can she maintain at a steady number of 5? Some will die and need to be replaced. Some will outgrow their hives and will need to be dealt with in some manner, or her neighbors may have Pamela's bees in their eaves.


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## MeriB

I think you just gave her the answer. Beekeeping is a fluid activity. You cannot simply keep a static number. I just hope the thread has not scared her off. Personally, I have found it facinating and instructive.


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## Michael Palmer

Michael Palmer said:


> 1. The bees don't "like" the break in functional comb between boxes. This results in reluctance to "jump the gap" in mutiple different circumstances.
> 
> Says you. In 40 years I have seen no evidence of this. What's your proof that the bees don't "like" the bee space between brood boxes and/or supers.
> 
> >>2. Something about brood-rearing in a deep that distorts cluster shape - flat on the bottom and rounded at the top. You only see a round cluster when it's quite small.
> 
> Distorts cluster shape?? Really?? And what possible problem would come from your flat bottomed clusters. Hey, just yesterday I was looking at clusters from the bottom up on a dozen multiple story hives...2 deeps and a medium. They were about 8" from the bottom board, and nothing flat about them.


Hoping you would answer my questions, Walt. What is your proof that bees don't like the break between bodies, and that it in any way effects them negatively. 
What are you talking about...flat clusters. How do these "flat" clusters impact the bees, the clusters, and the future of the colony?


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## Konrad

Pamela White said:


> Hello all,
> Just a quick question and I should have asked this long ago? If I have 5 hives that I start out with, how do I maintain them instead of splitting and making more if I just want to continue with 5???


I also like to maintain 5 hives, plus minus 2 or so is fine, I don't split, catch the odd swarm for winter insurance, that's all. This year I had around 950lb of honey from my 5 hives.


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## wcubed

Mike,
The only proof I have of those 2 improvements is the results. Changing configuration and incorporating the pollen box were done over a two year period - in parallel. When they were both in place, suddenly, I had a marked improvement in wintering. Went from 25% feeble clusters in Feb to constently adequate cluster size. Can't say wihich of the two changes had the most effect, but suspect the pollen box was the key. The configuration change supported the pollen box maneuver.

By moving a shallow of brood below the single deep during the spring expansion, that shallow is backfilled with long-term pollen, bee bread. It remains there until August when fall expansion starts to rear wintering young bees. August, locally, is a period of low field pollen availability. The colony dips into their pollen reserve to start the fall expansion. By first frost, the pollen box is empty and is left in place going into winter. Used in late winter to CB honey above the brood nest.

This doesn't make much sense until you recognize the bees heritage. Their instincts were developed for life in the tree hollow of extended forest. Not much fall flow in the forest. What the pollen box is intended to do is accommodate their instincts in a Lang hive. The hypothesis is that in the vertical tree hollow, they store pollen in the period when it's plentiful, the spring. As the brood nest grows upward, the pollen reserve is stored at the bottom. Come time to rear wintering bees, the broodnest grows downward into the pollen reserve. In so doing, the cluster winters in the bottom with their honey stores overhead to grow into in the late winter. The small-cell folks call that the "core" broodnest.

Note that in the pollen box application the brood nest does not recede to the bottom. Their reluctance to jump the gap at the interbar space and their preference for maintaining brood in the larger volume of the deep keeps the winter cluster in the deep.

You ask how these observations affect colony performance. Although colony reservaltions about Lang design are not limited to the circumstance here, certainly, wintering is a biggee.

Would you go for a little skull drill? Picking a circumstance that we both see (?) I would like to see your answer. The situation: A starter colony has nearly filled their first deep.(70 to 90%) A second deep is added above. There is some delay in the start of comb-drawing in the added, upper deep of foundation. The question: What are the factors influencing the length of the delay - both shortening and lengthening?
Cheers,
Walt


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## sqkcrk

ralittlefield said:


> Okay, so how do you answer her? How can she maintain at a steady number of 5? Some will die and need to be replaced. Some will outgrow their hives and will need to be dealt with in some manner, or her neighbors may have Pamela's bees in their eaves.


She only asked about how to maintain 5, she didn't ask about anything else. So, the answer should be obvious, replace the deadouts. Anything else we don't have enuf info to advise her on.

If Pamela was scared off by this Thread I don't know what to say. It's been pretty tame compared to others one will find.


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## Michael Palmer

wcubed said:


> Mike,
> The only proof I have of those 2 improvements is the results. Changing configuration and incorporating the pollen box were done over a two year period - in parallel. When they were both in place, suddenly, I had a marked improvement in wintering. Went from 25% feeble clusters in Feb to constently adequate cluster size. Can't say wihich of the two changes had the most effect, but suspect the pollen box was the key. The configuration change supported the pollen box maneuver.
> Walt


An alternative hypothesis...since you rely on supercedure to requeen you colonies, it figures that your bees have acclimatized to your conditions, and their genetics have improved through natural selection. An hypothesis that is as valid as yours?


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## Michael Palmer

wcubed said:


> Would you go for a little skull drill? Picking a circumstance that we both see (?) I would like to see your answer. The situation: A starter colony has nearly filled their first deep.(70 to 90%) A second deep is added above. There is some delay in the start of comb-drawing in the added, upper deep of foundation. The question: What are the factors influencing the length of the delay - both shortening and lengthening?
> Cheers,
> Walt


Yep, sure. The delay, when adding foundation above, is that it's not comb. The bees don't see foundation as comb into which they can expand. Add a box of brood combs above this new single, and the bees will jump right on it...provided there are ample bees in the cluster and there's a flow on. 

And the relevance of your flat bottomed cluster is....??


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## buzz abbott

Pamela White said:


> Hello all,
> Just a quick question and I should have asked this long ago? If I have 5 hives that I start out with, how do I maintain them instead of splitting and making more if I just want to continue with 5???


When I first read Pamela's question I of course related it to my own experience.
By city ordinance I am only allowed to have 2 hives, and am supposed to do all I can to prevent swarming. How to accomplish this? If I do splits, I have too many hives. If I don't I have to result to other means of swarm control.
Perhaps Pamela is in a similar situation and has constraints that make 5 hive optimal. My choice to date is to go ahead and do the splits and then combine, (the city doesn't keep a very close eye on us) but will start CB next year.


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## sqkcrk

Perhaps brood removal and destruction? Thru freezing of brood combs?


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## squarepeg

pull the queen prior to swarm season, destroy all but one queen cell, or even all the queen cells, no new brood for a month, and requeen.


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## squarepeg

squarepeg said:


> pull the queen prior to swarm season, destroy all but one queen cell, or even all the queen cells, no new brood for a month, and requeen.


basically do a cut down split but remove only the queen. you'll get more honey, but might have to buy a queen.


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## ralittlefield

squarepeg said:


> basically do a cut down split


I'm not sure why, but according to the OP she would like to avoid splitting.


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## squarepeg

understood, that's why i suggested just taking the queen. not really splitting, but the same mo as a cut down split. i.e. just prior to main flow, take queen (but not frames of bees), go back a week later and remove queen cells, (maybe leave one good one), go back a month later and check for mated queen, (or put in new queen).

i did a cut down split on one of my strong hives this spring, (read about it on bushfarms.com, under swarm prevention i think). it worked exactly as mike bush said it might.


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## sqkcrk

And what do you do w/ the queen you took?


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## Daniel Y

On the issue of the queen and a gap. I am not saying this is correct, I am saying this is how I understand the explanation of a problem. Notice I said "A" problem, no the "The" problem.

First is the theory that a queen starts at the first cell and lays an egg. she then moves to an adjacent egg to lay the next. This is argued as the method the queen will lay maximum brood. If the queen passed an empty cell to lay time was lost. Equals less efficiency. The overall idea is that the queen then lays in a pattern that has the first egg at the center of a circle and continues to spiral outwardly from this center laying in the next adjacent empty cell. This explains why a nest woudl be round in cross section. but does not explain to me how it widens into a ball. Btu that is another issue and it never did get addressed for me anyway. Anyway the queen is doing her circling thing with the next available cell right a her nose merrily laying eggs to beat the band. but then suddenly the location where the next empty cell should be is a strip of wood. This disrupts the queens progress to the next empty cell. she turns around and heads back only to find cells full of eggs. she must continue to hint around and reestablish her natural pattern of egg laying. This could in theory cause such a disruption that the queen actually abandons that entire pattern and finds a new location to start again. Possibly requiring that she search for and find another completely empty comb. I suspect it would actually be very hard to know just exactly how much this disruption effects laying. I can imagine a female dog that has chosen it location to whelp. To then only be moved. She may spend hours or even a day or more adjusting to such a disruption. It may be just a disruption of a few minutes. I have heard from several sources that queens are reluctant to cross the gap between fraems. deep frames present fewer gaps than med or shallow. One of the sources I was reading on this issue promoted the use of only ultra or extra deep fraems for a brood box. a frame large enough to contain an entire laying patter, as it only gets so large, with no disruptions.

So although med and even shallow boxes are used, and queens to lay in them. They do work. But are they the best choice? It is not so much a matter of all brood being lost. but a matter of how much brood is being lost.

So do I think that the size of fraems in the brood box will make or break a beekeeper. By no means. But it could be a way to improve your management for those looking for ways to improve.

So far my direct observations of how a queen lays is not consistent with the above. At least in the early part of the season. I have observed twice now that the queen will go to the highest point in the hive that contains empty cells and begin laying. In both cases it struck me as the queen was getting as far away from the entrance as possible. As she lays she will then be forced to move downward. or toward the entrance to find new empty cells. In 21 days as the first eggs are emerging. the queen is far removed from that location in the hive. the bees will then fill that cell with nectar. Eventually the queen gets pushed back down toward the entrance where, Hopefully, the brood nest will be maintained for the season. that or she runs out of room and it is time for the colony to swarm.

I watched almost daily as a queen filled almost two full deep boxes with brood in this way. IT did strike me that she was clearly either in the upper or the lower box. but it never appeared she was laying in both boxes at the same time. It had the effect of something like she was in one room or the other. but the gap clearly made a difference. not necessarily a problem.


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## squarepeg

sqkcrk said:


> And what do you do w/ the queen you took?


whatever you want to.

sell her, trade her, pinch her.

use her to start a new hive to replace winter dead outs.

what would you do with her mark?


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## Pamela White

Thank you all for your responses. I am now thoroughly confused, but will go with my best instinct and read, read, read. I know you all have your own way of beekeeping and I really enjoy reading what you have to say. I am brand new to this and have been learning so much and hopefully don't lose my bees for my ignorance. I am old-fashioned in lots of ways and believe that they know way more than we do. I think lots of common sense will go along way. I just want to do right by them. They give me more than I ever asked for. It is a challenge for me and I don't really care to go into the Scientific way of doing things. Just as long as they are ok, I will let nature stay in charge. The bees have done fine without us for a long time. Thanks for all of your help and comments and suggestions.


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## sqkcrk

squarepeg said:


> whatever you want to.
> 
> sell her, trade her, pinch her.
> 
> use her to start a new hive to replace winter dead outs.
> 
> what would you do with her mark?


Hard to say what I would do since I don't have the goal as set forth in the OP. The easiest thing to do would be to pinch her head.


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## sqkcrk

Pamela White said:


> Thank you all for your responses. I am now thoroughly confused, but will go with my best instinct and read, read, read. I know you all have your own way of beekeeping and I really enjoy reading what you have to say. I am brand new to this and have been learning so much and hopefully don't lose my bees for my ignorance. I am old-fashioned in lots of ways and believe that they know way more than we do. I think lots of common sense will go along way. I just want to do right by them. They give me more than I ever asked for. It is a challenge for me and I don't really care to go into the Scientific way of doing things. Just as long as they are ok, I will let nature stay in charge. The bees have done fine without us for a long time. Thanks for all of your help and comments and suggestions.



I'm glad to see you are still w/ us. More participation from you, especially on your own Thread, would help us better understand your goals and thereby make suggestions more aplicable to your situation.

What exactly is your situation? Are you averse to splitting or simply don't want to lest you make a mistake, do more harm than good. Or what? 

Thanks for a reply.


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## sqkcrk

Daniel,
Where a queen lays eggs and in which cells she lays them in has a lot to do w/ which cells have been prepared for her to lay in and where she is directed to by the worker bees.


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## squarepeg

i agree that it is hard to maintain a set number of hives. how many do you have now?


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## hoodswoods

Pamela White said:


> Thank you all for your responses. I am now thoroughly confused, but will go with my best instinct and read, read, read. I know you all have your own way of beekeeping and I really enjoy reading what you have to say. I am brand new to this and have been learning so much and hopefully don't lose my bees for my ignorance. I am old-fashioned in lots of ways and believe that they know way more than we do. I think lots of common sense will go along way. I just want to do right by them. They give me more than I ever asked for. It is a challenge for me and I don't really care to go into the Scientific way of doing things. Just as long as they are ok, I will let nature stay in charge. The bees have done fine without us for a long time. Thanks for all of your help and comments and suggestions.


I too am a traditional beekeeper - because without a lot of experience and time, that's the way I learned. Sure I implement new sound, logical ideas to support them under changing conditions - and those that you ever do will be of your choice, information and decision, based on all the factors that encompasses your particular situation.

We throw bees in a crazy box, introduce new viruses, new biological creatures, the diminishment of their environment, along with their inherent conditions/natural instinct to swarm, replace failing queens... and we expect them to maintain some sort of equalibrium?

Safely store your good comb, have enough equipment to be able to support 20% more than your optimum and find good spring sources (now) for nuc, packages or queens (or make your own) to make your winter year-end total about where you want it - and accect the consequences.

A lot of other ideas have been presented, not only in this thread, but throughout the forum. I'm sure that many work over time, depending on your level of involvment. Is 20% plus loss of resources acceptable to me - no, but considering how much time and resources I am able to commit - it is the best I can hope for. So sometimes I go into winter with more than I want (rarely) and usually less.

200 LBS off of 5 garden hives this year.


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## wcubed

Mike,
Thought I had stomped the worm of the flat-bottomed brood nest, but maybe not. With a deep on the bottom, the flat bottom inhibits the storing of the natural pollen reserve below. The tendency of the colony to fill the deep frames with brood leaves no comb below for pollen. Didn't see the bee bread below until the brood nest was turned loose (unlimited) by checkerboarding. Some colonies would fill the bottom deep with bee bread. Note that it is seen more readily on all-medium configurations with unlimited brood nest, and sometimes referred to as "pollen bound."

To help the colony build their pollen reserve below, early in the buildup, a shallow of brood is moved below the deep. Colony preference for rearing brood in a deep gets that shallow below filled with bee bread when pollen is plentiful in the spring. When consumption of the pollen reserve starts in early August, it is done in the familier arch like the top (but upside down) and some brood is reared in the arch for a rounded bottom of the the brood nest. Rearing brood in the bottom shallow is temporary, and disappears by Sept. leaving the comb empty going into winter.

Another note of significance: In the '07 season, a late freeze took out all pollen sources for nearly 3 months. The colonies made do for that period without tapping their box of pollen below. In other words, the pollen reserve at the bottom is dedicated to the August buildup.

I think it's safe to say that the pollen reserve is a survival trait that is inhibited by Lang hive design.

Walt


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## Oldtimer

wcubed I would like to read a proper write up on checkerboarding, can you please provide a link?


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## Daniel Y

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkerboarding_(beekeeping)
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/checker-boarding/ (this one adds an issue called White Wax period, an interesting addition to the issue)
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesexperiment.htm (a call for an experiment concerning checkerboarding vs opening brood nest vs doing nothing. it also explains the white wax period a bit better)
Last but not least, go to the source.
http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/all walt articles.htm


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## Michael Palmer

wcubed said:


> Mike,
> Thought I had stomped the worm of the flat-bottomed brood nest, but maybe not. With a deep on the bottom, the flat bottom inhibits the storing of the natural pollen reserve below. The tendency of the colony to fill the deep frames with brood leaves no comb below for pollen. Didn't see the bee bread below until the brood nest was turned loose (unlimited) by checkerboarding. Some colonies would fill the bottom deep with bee bread. Note that it is seen more readily on all-medium configurations with unlimited brood nest, and sometimes referred to as "pollen bound."
> 
> This doesn't make much sense until you recognize the bees heritage. Their instincts were developed for life in the tree hollow of extended forest. Not much fall flow in the forest. What the pollen box is intended to do is accommodate their instincts in a Lang hive. The hypothesis is that in the vertical tree hollow, they store pollen in the period when it's plentiful, the spring. As the brood nest grows upward, the pollen reserve is stored at the bottom. Come time to rear wintering bees, the broodnest grows downward into the pollen reserve. In so doing, the cluster winters in the bottom with their honey stores overhead to grow into in the late winter. The small-cell folks call that the "core" broodnest.
> 
> Walt


Seems to me, that in a natural, vertical tree cavity, there's no differentiation between comb...deep, shallow, or otherwise. The bees store pollen below the active broodnest even though the combs in a tree are continous. I believe it has everything to do with how much comb there is overhead...above the bottom of the cavity. If you're running an unlimited broodnest, I guess it depends on what you mean by unlimited. That the bees have more than enough room above the lowest combs to raise the brood they want, and to store the feed they need. If they're limited by an excluder, or lack of broodcomb above, because all combs are filled with honey, then they're forced down and can't store a box of pollen below...but they will store pollen near the outside combs...as the center is used for brood.

I don't believe pollen storage below has anything to do with the depth of the combs placed on the bottom board, or any space between top and bottom bars, but rather has to do with the height of the broodnest. Yes, the colony is moved down when rearing winter bees...by incoming nectar. All the way down? Not if the cavity in the tree, or the one you create is tall enough. I winter in 2d1m, as the smallest unit. Many of my hives are taller going into winter. 3d1m, 1d3m, 6m, etc. I never remove extra brood boxes from the bottom. As I said the other day, I looked at a dozen colonies the other day. None of the clusters were located at the bottom of the bottom box. Most had deeps on the bottom. No clusters were flat.

Pollen bound...at least in my colonies, would refer to a condition where the core of the broodnest is so filled with pollen, that the queen has no, or very few open cells in which to lay eggs. I see this often in colonies with failing queens and/or being compromised by varroa/viruses. Pollen stored below the active brood rearing cluster is, as you say, normal.


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## wcubed

Mike,
This is just another case of what we see being different and conclusions/opinions drawn from those observations also being different. I say again, this doesn't mean that either one of us is WRONG.

Some time back, you reported weighing, and feeding if required, up to 160 lbs. My reaction at the time was that did not indicate that your wintering config. was filled. Two deeps and a medium should weigh at least 200 lbs if filled. The fact that you look up from the bottom and see a recessed, rounded cluster tells me that your clusters are not going into winter in the bottom box.

That's not what we see in Dixie. With some seasonal exceptions, our bees winter in the filled bottom deep. A rounded cluster would have to protrude through the bottom board.
That doesn't happen often.

Give me a break in your incessant efforts to debunk anything I say.
Walt


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## Michael Bush

If I lived where they only allowed two hives I would go into winter with two hives each with a nuc on top. I seriously doubt that a non beekeeper would recognize it as four hives and I seriously doubt that a beekeeper would consider the nucs "hives" on their own. When you dog has puppies and you live where you're only allowed two dogs have you violated the law? I think it depends on how big the dogs get before you do something...


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## minz

Walt, I am a great fan but also want to say that I have followed your writings for a while and admire your achievements but found the lead off to be kind of abrasive and uppity (post#8)
‘Am also amazed how many beekeepers still think… ‘
which may have set the tone to the next posts. I am not a poet but have been told frequently that 
‘you unknowingly step on the toes of your fellows and they retaliate, seemingly without provocation’
Seems like a firestorm of posts that sours the discussion followed. Keep writing, post your white paper for evidence, and dance (even if you have no place to do it but in your living room).
I have no wisdom, just observations and regurgitation.


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## sqkcrk

minz, is that addressed to Michael Bush? What are you refering to #8?


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## minz

Thanks Sqt, I deleted about 1/2 of what I had typed and it was incomplete. Let me know if it is still not clear (lunch hour ending, fast typing)


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## wcubed

minz,
Interesting that you should take it that way. My friends and family have been telling me for years that I have not been agressive enough in pushing what I believe to be in the best interest of beekeepers. Normally, I'm fairly passive in presentation of the concepts. The concepts are out there - use 'em, if you choose. But I turned 80 a couple months ago. Maybe that's the crotchety threshold. I am tiring of the abuse from those I'm trying to help. Didn't mean for it to show, though.
Thanks,
Walt


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## squarepeg

not crotchety enough walt, go for it!

any plans to be in jackson county soon? would love for you to come by.


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## Michael Palmer

minz said:


> I have followed your writings for a while and admire your achievements but found the lead off to be kind of abrasive and uppity (post#8)
> 
> ‘you unknowingly step on the toes of your fellows and they retaliate, seemingly without provocation’
> Seems like a firestorm of posts that sours the discussion followed.


Walt, you asked and I'll tell you...

Your premise that says all previous beekeeping literature, that came before your nectar management, swarm prep C/O date theory, and all scientists and professional beekeepers since the beginning of time...have got it wrong. This is how you open the document you sent me. This is how you usually introduce your dogma. I can';t abide this kind of attitude, and if you're going to continue in this vein, I'm going to present another side when I feel it's appropriate. If you say your management theories are the one and only way, I'll present what I've found in my life with the bees, if I feel it's different than yours and important enough to disagree. When you make seemingly outlandish claims, my hackles are raised

Nothing personal Walt, just that both sides of the coin must be shown.


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## sqkcrk

Does the difference between GA and VT come into this discussion?


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## Joel

Pamela - when you do loose your hives to ignorance you'll be in good company since everyone of us ignormaousus have lost hives that way! 
it's part of the whole process. Gleening from all our ideas and bending and twisiting them to fit your ideals, methods and goals and then sharing that with us keeps the learning and process moving ahead. Don't let what sounds like animosity on some of these posts confuse you, what you are seeing is a whole bunch of people passionate about what they do, I'll take that over mediocraty any day.

Walt - 80 years - thanks for all you have and we are confident you will continue to contribute. I hope to have the opportunity to be 80 and as someone said - crotchity!


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## honeyman46408

sqkcrk said:


> Does the difference between GA and VT come into this discussion?



My feeling exactly Mark you 2 boyzs need to chill a bit "all beekeeping is local" so take into consideration the 1000 miles or so that you are apart.

Does any one remember the orginial question?



> Just a quick question and I should have asked this long ago? If I have 5 hives that I start out with, how do I maintain them instead of splitting and making more if I just want to continue with 5???


Now which way did that wabbit go?


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## Adam Foster Collins

I'm happy to see detailed critique, and countering observations/opinions.

I understand hurt feelings, and bruised egos. I have heard from a number of people who have left this forum over the years because of the way things can get tough here. 

But I'll take the tough, but RESPECTFUL head-to-head over the "love-in, group think" environment any day.

I had a great teacher once who told me "when you get frustrated, you should realize that the frustration is the sign that you have an opportunity to learn something, and to go beyond yourself."

I don't see anything disrespectful going on in this thread.

Thanks for the efforts to share, on all sides. It serves us all a lot.

Adam


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## wcubed

Joel,
Meant to thank you for your earlier post - left it on my email notice list so I could go directly to it later. Must say that is an unusual group of associates that you have. Been a long-time member of two clubs - Huntsville, AL and Nashville. The management of the AL group were experienced beeks and the TN group academics. With the revered club leaders in opposition, made very little progress in my efforts.

Mike,
I remember a post on another thread where you asked "whats wrong with this picture? Had to do with my position that conventional wisdom is not accurate in the area of swarming. I didn't respond, but if I had, would have to point out that, to my knowledge, nobody had gone to the trouble to try to understand the swarm process. Academics and beekeepers alike were happy with calling effects of the process the causes. We have demonstrated that treating the symptoms or effects is not a reliable approach to swarm prevention. Those effects include adult bee crowding (congestion), no room for the queen to lay (backfilling), idle young bees (swarm needs wax makers), and others.

I'll stand pat on my contention that those concepts are obsolete. Me against the world. There is some consolation in the knowledge that people who buck conventional wisdom are not popular in their day. Some die in disgrace.

In past exchenges with you, I've been tempted to caution you against sking over the edge of this flat world. To my knowledge, nobody has come back from going over the edge.

sqkcrk.
The differences in colony effects between TN and VT is very much a part of this discussion.

All,
Have a nice day. Mine is off to a flying start.

Walt


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## Oldtimer

Thank you Daniel Y, I'll try it on a few hives & see what happens.


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