# Moisture Board versus Quilt Block?



## Angiebubs (Apr 16, 2015)

First winter with bees in MN/WI and there is so much information out there on over wintering!

I ended up with just one thriving hive with 2 deeps that I am still supplementing 2:1 feed. I have a bee cozy and a metal top telescoping lid with inner cover. I purchased the metal entrance disc and plan on installing that asap on the top deep and putting bottom entrance at smallest opening with a mouse guard.

Question regarding moisture:

What are the pro's/con's of moisture boards versus quilt boxes? The moisture boards are appealing from the simple fact of they can be purchased easily and I am thinking less mold? However the quilt boxes seem like they would capture more moisture? Thoughts?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In my opinion CAPTURING moisture is exactly what you do not want to do. I would have to drag out my chemistry book to do the exact calculations (moles and all of that), but bees produce GALLONS of water over the winter. I want it out. I do NOT want to capture it. Moist air rises. Let it out the top.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeswinter.htm#Top


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Vent the interior by a small bottom entrance opening and a top entrance.

Install extra insulation on top so interior top is not the coldest part of the hive. Any moisture condensation will occur on cold surfaces first.

Personally, I use a feed rim with a 3/4 round entrance/vent hole, an inner cover with notch up, a quilt box above inner cover, and a telescopic hive with 2 1/2 Styrofoam permanently installed. Inner cover will catch any drips that might occur from quilt box( I have never seen evidence of this). The notch up vents the cavity between top side of inner cover and underside of quilt box. 

Quilt boxes work best with side holes in quilt box and/or venting of area above shavings. Moisture works it way through shavings in quilt box and exits hive. I have never used a quilt box with a bee cozy but would suspect you may get some moisture trapped in the quilt box and get some molding happening.


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## Angiebubs (Apr 16, 2015)

Thanks for the info!!

OK total newbie question here:

I have been using migratory tops so far, but decided to use a metal covered telescoping for the winter. I just received it and am completely confused when everyone keeps talking about a "top" or "Bottom" to the inner cover? And I have looked it over and do not see any "notches" in the inner cover?:s


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Angiebubs said:


> Thanks for the info!!
> 
> OK total newbie question here:
> 
> I have been using migratory tops so far, but decided to use a metal covered telescoping for the winter. I just received it and am completely confused when everyone keeps talking about a "top" or "Bottom" to the inner cover? And I have looked it over and do not see any "notches" in the inner cover?:s



Here's a link to a pic of an inner cover in our area. Notch in lip is 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 inch.

http://www.beemaidbeestore.com/img/prod/43d7c62e2b4c5.jpg

One side is flat and side with notch has a 1/4 or 3/8 rim and notch in the rim. You can cut the notch out with a hand saw and save the piece if you want to block it. I typically nail the notch to the inner cover so I don't lose it.

Think the intent is to use the flat side to the frames in the summer. Leaves about bee space between frame tops and flat side of the inner cover. Can leave notch open as a top entrance or block it for the summer. A lot of hives in my area are operated with a bottom entrance only for the summer. You can also run notch down in summer, creating a top entrance. May get a bit more bridge comb due to extra space created by rim but is not overly problematic.

A lot of bee keepers don't use a feed rim and need a top entrance for winter to exhaust moisture. If they have inner covers, they often place them notch down and create the upper entrance. If they do not have an inner cover, they drill a 1 inch hole in top deep brood just below hand hole to create an upper entrance/moisture exhaust port.

My personal preference from bottom to top is feed rim with 3/4 entrance, inner cover with notch up, quilt box and insulated outer cover. Also put two inches perimeter Styrofoam insulation and a black wrap. Black wrap is just to top of Styrofoam and does not cover side holes in quilt box.


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## Angiebubs (Apr 16, 2015)

Awesome thank you! So I do NOT have this notch out of my Mann Lake inner cover (and am not losing my mind LOL) But that makes total sense. However I think that since I am planning on drilling a hole and putting the metal entrance disc over it, that would work out just as well.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have been using migratory tops so far, but decided to use a metal covered telescoping for the winter. I just received it and am completely confused when everyone keeps talking about a "top" or "Bottom" to the inner cover? And I have looked it over and do not see any "notches" in the inner cover?

Not all inner covers are the same. Some have a notch and some have no notch. Some are flat on one side and recessed on the other. Some are recessed on both sides by different amounts.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Angiebubs said:


> Awesome thank you! So I do NOT have this notch out of my Mann Lake inner cover (and am not losing my mind LOL) But that makes total sense. However I think that since I am planning on drilling a hole and putting the metal entrance disc over it, that would work out just as well.


Your talking about the one for 5 bucks or so that has several different openings right?...anyway I'd only use that if i was not using an inner cover. so like for a nuc or hive with attached bottom and a migratory cover that was moved around it would be useful. since you have an inner cover might think of just notching out some wood enough for a top entrance.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Without question I'd recommend quilt boxes rather than a moisture board. Quilt boxes remove the moisture from the hive all winter (someone here calculated that's 5 gallons over the course of winter). They are poorly named. While they may sound cozy, their primary function is _moisture management_, which they do perfectly.

I have described mine so often regular readers must be bored to death to see it again. Do a search on my user name and you will quickly turn up a description of mine.

I am in northern NY and I wouldn't winter without one on top of every hive.

Enj.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I use moisture boards (homasote) with bottom reduced entrance mouse guard and upper notch entrance in a moist marine air winter climate.
They work and work well.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> In my opinion CAPTURING moisture is exactly what you do not want to do. I would have to drag out my chemistry book to do the exact calculations (moles and all of that), but bees produce GALLONS of water over the winter. I want it out. I do NOT want to capture it. Moist air rises. Let it out the top.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beeswinter.htm#Top



Michael,
I totally respect your opinion. Last year I had ONE Warre' hive that had a quilt box and survived the winter just fine. This year I have 9 hives going into winter strong. I"m putting quilt boxes on them but also giving them top entrances......do you think this is a mistake? My thought is that the quilt box gives some "R" value to the cover and the upper entrance allows the moist air to escape.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would have to experiment more with quilt boxes to have a firm opinion on them beyond that I don't think you can trap all the moisture. But that may be a mistake in what people believe about how they work. Perhaps all they do is slow the moisture down to keep it from condensing. It just seems (and don't have a lot of experience with using them but I have a lot of experience living outdoors) that anytime you catch moisture that is a bad thing because now you have to evaporate it and that takes a lot of energy. If the moisture can escape through a top entrance, the quilt board will probably just be insulation and insulation on top is always a good thing as it cuts down on condensation as well as cutting down on heat loss.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

I have eight one inch holes, two per side in my quilt boxes. They are covered by a 1/8 mesh screen. There is no doubt that moisture is being vented through them as they get covered in frost in cold temps. Round hole in feed rim and notch in inner cover also nearly frost over.

Think most of the moisture is vented by bottom entrance and 3/4 feed and notch in inner cover but no doubt some is migrating through quilt box. With inner cover below quilt box, I vent underside of quilt box. I can't imagine a scenario where quilt box would contain enough moisture to drip. And if it did drip, the dripping would mostly land on inner cover.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think the inner cover under the quilt box material may be a hindrance. The shavings quilt provides enough resistance to air flow to prevent over ventilation and thus loss of heat. If your quilt box is vented out the sides above the shavings layer the inner cover can go on the top of the quilt box then insulation and the weatherproof cover. In other words I see the shavings or whatever of the quilt as being a wick so I want the maximum area exposed to it. The upper surface is an evaporator or dissipator; dont restrict air access to it.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Keep in mind I have a 3 1/2 round hole in my inner cover. It is sized to accommodate syrup feeding with jars. Underside of quilt box has good access to top hive moisture. I am having no problem with getting moisture out of the hive. I sometimes wonder if it is too dry as some condensation is helpful to supply moisture to dissolve crystalized honey. 

Many hives in Western Canada are vented by a bottom entrance and a single 1 inch round hole in top brood or notch in inner cover. I consider the quilt box just additional gravy.

I have a small bottom entrance and 3/4 round hole and notch open and quilt box, there is no problem with moisture. 

The inner cover below the quilt box also aids in opening the hive when adding sugar blocks. I get some bees clinging to the bottom side of the quilt box now but wouldn't want to deal with them clinging to a bigger area.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

mgolden said:


> Keep in mind I have a 3 1/2 round hole in my inner cover.


I think what Frank is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that, the only air that is directly going up to the quilt box is from your feeding hole. All other warm, moist air must move across the bottom of the inner cover to get to the feeding hole. This will cause moisture to condense on the inner cover in other areas and on warmer days_ could_ drip on the bees and freeze as temps drop back down.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Yes, hackleguy that was my line of thinking; probably though, in reality, with the shavings above the inner cover the insulation effect would be enough to prevent condensation. I am just throwing things out for contemplation. I can see the bee clinging issue but the way I did it with removable quilt pillow the bees dont cling to the screen very long when the cold air hits them. From a purely moisture exchange angle I imagine the inner cover in the circuit to be some resistance. Maybe we are far on the safe side of moisture exchange so this may not be a concern at all. 

I am using a fair bit smaller top entrance than some are successfully using. I envision the _main_ air exchange and moisture venting to be via the quilt material and large vents above. I went from the old traditional inner cover and telescope top to what I am doing now. The old way definitely produced ice on things and mold. With the vented shavings quilt box, dry sugar on top frames does not even cake up in my climate and I have seen a problem with it running down between frames in the spring and the bees flying it off into the trees. Maybe less would be good enough. Will have to play with it.

Enjambres for instance is much more lavish with insulation etc. than I am but is having 100% wintering success so you can't knock that. Maybe if she had 20 hives she would be looking for ways to back off a bit and that would likely be very successful too. It is good to see this being discussed; I have not heard anyone that tried the vented shavings quilt box complain about results!


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

thehackleguy said:


> I think what Frank is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that, the only air that is directly going up to the quilt box is from your feeding hole. All other warm, moist air must move across the bottom of the inner cover to get to the feeding hole. This will cause moisture to condense on the inner cover in other areas and on warmer days_ could_ drip on the bees and freeze as temps drop back down.


????????

As stated previously, I am not having any moisture problems within the hive. There is no problem with air rising through 3 1/2 round hole in inner cover and moving outward in 3/8 space on upper side of inner cover and then up through and out of quilt box. I think heat from cluster will prevent any condensation on quilt above hole in inner and area around hole in inner cover due to rising cluster heat. Quilt boxes are not necessary but I think they are a useful addition.

I also have 2 1/2 Styrofoam installed in outer cover so there is little problem with condensation and frosting with inner cover and quilt box.

Inner cover also makes it easier to open hive on a warm day to replenish sugar blocks, as easier to get bees out
of the way.

Working extremely well for me, having wintered 7 out 7 hives last winter.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Crofter, what size is your bottom entrance and now smaller top entrance? My winter air is on the dry side and I operate with two side 3/8 by 1/2 wide bottom entrance and a 3/4 round hole in feed rim, 3/8 by 1 1/2 notch in inner cover and quilt box.

I'm all for reducing hive ventilation to minimal so that one is adequately venting moisture and supplying oxygen. I am pretty confident that interior temp is higher than exterior so one gets less food consumption, looser cluster that can get to food stores, and early and large brood build up in spring. I have a thermometer with a remote hard wired sensor taped to a thin rod and see temps of 20-30F warmer than ambient on top side of inner cover. Sensor is located about half way between center hole of inner cover and side wall.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Well it sounds like there is not a lot of difference in the sizes of our top and bottom entrances. My top entrances probably average about 3/8 by 1". I have about 20 sq. inches of ventilation above the quilt though. Likely the flow resistance of the shavings layer is the controlling factor rather than the vents themselves.

From your survival numbers your method is obviously working. There is not a lot of difference in our winter temperature but you get a few more breaks and an earlier spring.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

I usually stay out of discussions on this subject, but I have reservations about what I have seen on the subject here on the web. It seems to me that any of the treatments of the top of the the hive do not look at it like the hollow tree cavity of the bee's ancestry. I have yet to see a top of the hive configuration that simulated the tree cavity. See Bwranglers test of a plexiglas inner cover. Don't know how to provide a click-on link. (And am not eager to learn)

Let's start with the misconceptions that pervade the conceptions. It is often stated that dry sugar absorbs the moisture of condensation. Actually the reverse is true. The dry sugar does "absorb" the liquid water by capillary action, but it is the melting of the sugar by the water that allows the bees to have a sugar water solution that they can use as feed. So, the water is absorbing the sugar. Is that being hyper-critical of the terminology?

Secondly, the effects of the hollow tree cavity seem to be almost impossible to duplicate in the the hive. Heat rises. In the tree hollow, the warmest area is at the top. Note that the bee colony tries to seal the top to make that so. (Reason for the inner cover) If we are going to add solid sugar for emergency feed in the spring, we need to have it cold to condense the water vapor. So, the top of the hive is the warmest place. How do we do this? 
Whatever you do, you are not likely to reproduce the effects of the tree hollow.

Always, the dissenting opinion.
Walt


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Think a beekeeper is getting close to simulating a tree cavity by using shavings in a quilt box. I haven't had the courage to try a quilt box, a feed rim with no entrance, and then a 1 inch hole below the hand hole in top brood. And a good insulation on perimeter and over top. Might include a small bottom entrance?????


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

enjambres said:


> Quilt boxes remove the moisture from the hive all winter (someone here calculated that's 5 gallons over the course of winter). ...


You make a point that water is removed. How does that 5 gallons get removed from a hive using a quilt box? You're saying it doesn't get trapped but is actually removed?

Curious.

Wayne


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Living in the Pacific NW where it will be raining for the next 6 months makes me an expert on moisture. However, what works here, may not work for you where it is much colder. I have tried the standard bottom entrance with a top entrance notch and it created a mold factory. The small hole at the top does not allow enough air exchange to be useful. A quilt box works very well here because the moisture goes to the top of the quilt material where the large hole in the quilt box vents it out easily. But I am lazy. Making a bunch of quilt boxes takes a lot work and storage space in the summer. I also find that a mostly sealed bottom and a top entrance 1/2 an inch high using modified migratory covers (see Michael Bush's website for an example) works just as well with a lot less work. Best of all, I can use the top entrances like this all year long. We don't get really cold weather here and maybe only 10-15 night fall below freezing in any winter so I don't have to worry about really cold weather. I am probably alone on this but I also believe the additional ventilation and air exchange reduces the pathogens that are in the hive. If they are airborne, the warm air leaving the hive carries them outside and away from the hive.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

waynesgarden said:


> You make a point that water is removed. How does that 5 gallons get removed from a hive using a quilt box? You're saying it doesn't get trapped but is actually removed?
> 
> Curious.
> 
> Wayne


Wayne, it works because the quilt box has a large opening or several openings to vent the quilt box. The openings are above the quilt material so the air does not blow into the hive.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have often seen hoar frost crystals on top of the shavings. The moisture is constantly being taken up by the outside air that is free to flow through the quilt box vent holes above the shavings. At the same time you can put your fingers down into the shavings towards the bee side and the shavings feel warm and toasty dry. The effective evaporating surface of the quilt is much greater than its nominal 14 x 18" area.

Edit; I got a bunch of free 4" thick and 2' x 2' foam pieces to use for covers over the quilt boxes so I may not see much frost on them this year!


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Thanks. I think I'm going to look into building some.

Wayne


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Last year, I made 3 quilt boxes and the holes in the sides were 1/2" holes. 12 total around each side. I don't think it was enough air flow as I would always have water running down the top cover as I removed it. So, I started wedging the top cover up a bit, a little more each day until the moisture was gone. The front edge ended up being propped up about 1/2".


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Here is how I accomplished venting the quilt box without drilling holes as these boxes also hold my hive top feeders. This screened lift gives about 20Sq. in vent area. The quilts are~ 4" thick. This hive has no feed ring as it was 140 plus pounds weight without the cover so should be good till spring.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Nice approach Frank, I would not have thought of using the hardware cloth as a structural part of the venting!


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## Angiebubs (Apr 16, 2015)

Lots of good things to think about! I went a head and purchased a moisture board today, but am still considering also adding a quilt box also....will have to figure out how to add in this additional layer in this stack! LOL Thanks for all the shared information!!


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

Great thread. This year I am making canvas quilt covers and stuffing them with pine wood shavings. I have my boxes vented with mesh covered vent holes on the side. The quilt will be against the holes but hopefully will still allow moisture out while preventing drafts. The bottom of the box/shim is also screen covered (#8) to keep the bees from eating the quilt. Next spring we will evaluate the results. I am also going to put some sugar and pollen bricks directly on top of the frames for winter survival feed just in case they run out of honey. Thanx for all the information you have shared. It is a humbling experience to post along with you folks that are obviously much further along than I am. Thank you for tolerating me. Best wishes, LP


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm with Walt on this one -- I've done some thinking over the few years I have had bees, and while I've yet to lose a hive in the winter (I kill mine of in the spring and summer!), Walt is quite correct that none of our hives really resemble a natural cavity.

Bees prefer a ten gallon or so sized, cylindrical space with an entrance about 1" diameter and located near the vertical center of the cavity. They liberally coat the inside of the hive with propolis -- on the order of 1/4" in some cases -- which essentially makes it completely waterproof. The comb is attached to the top of the hive with no open space at the top, and hence the top will always stay warm in the winter. Ventilation is by natural convection through the hole half way up the cavity.

I suspect the result is that the water produced by the bees condenses in the comb around the cluster and on the side of the cavity. I don't have access to a natural hive, but someday it would be great fun to put some temperature probes in one and see just what the actual temps are in a natural cavity vs. a Langstroth hive. 

My brother had a hive a few years ago that closed up the entrance at the bottom AND the bee escape in the top cover down to two small holes just large enough for a bee -- I suspect this is an indication of how much ventilation they really want, meaning quite a bit less than we usually give them.

I'm of the opinion that a solid inner cover (without a bee escape hole) and an insulated telescoping cover is probably the best configuration, with a small hole to vent damp air. The wood will absorb enough moisture on cold nights to prevent condensation on the warm inner cover and a small upper entrance will keep the bees from getting trapped in the hive by snow -- not an issue here as a rule, but in many locales that upper entrance prevents needing to clean snow off landing boards. Of course, you could eliminate the landing board by using a mid entrance rather than a bottom one, too!

Remember that bees need water to dilute the honey and metabolize it, and the only source in the winter is the condensation on the comb around the cluster. Too much ventilation will starve the bees of water, a cold top of the hive can kill them with water dripping on them, particularly if heavy frost forms on cold nights and melts during the day.

I believe a quilt box should have enough fibrous material (shredded leaves, planer shavings, etc) to have enough insulating capacity to stay warm on the bottom. If this is the case, it will always be dry there, any water will slowly migrate through the "packing" to the outside, but exterior venting shouldn't be necessary if you use a shallow super and fill it all the way up.

I may try this someday -- this year I'm quite happy to use what has always worked for me, heavy inner covers and telescoping outer covers (both 1/2" plywood) with the addition of newspaper and sugar in a shallow super or a feeder rim above top box -- and I suspect the sugar will act exactly like the top of a hollow tree.

Peter


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

psfred,

Thank you for posting this information especially with the detail. You give us a lot to think about. I am still trying a few different things and trying to find what works for me. If you happen to have any more thoughts on this subject, I for one would be very interested in hearing them. Best wishes, LP


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Thanks, Peter. I tired of fumbling with my keyboard before I made all the comments applicable.

If you look at the shape of tree cavities, you will find that the top is either peaked or conical. The adhesion of water droplets to the surface will cause them to travel on the surface sideways with slope or downward before letting go with a droplet. The bees apply this physics concept in their survival concepts. They have had millions of years to apply those concepts in their survival format, and select for those of best results.

In our unlimited wisdom, we have elected to vent the moisture overboard. This means that they must collect water in the early season from the surrounding area to thin honey to feed consistency. That is in the early season of brood nest expansion, when water is of chilling temps, at some sources. Water foraging is hazardous duty in that period. Why do we do this?

A story might help make the point.
A logging outfit called to report they had a tree with bees in their truck loading area. The bees were located in the smallest vertical cavity we had seen - maybe a 6" hollow. At the bottom of the cavity was a puddle of murky water - black. This was their buildup water supply. They have a pretty good filter on their sipper. Have never seen anything but clear water in their storage cells.
Point is: they had collected their late winter, honey thinning water at the bottom of the cavity, in a six inch cavity. And they were quite robust.

Walt


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Here are a couple of pictures of the quilt boxs I use. The first one is on a -20f day and you can see the frost that builds up on the underside of the telescoping cover.I use a piece of 2" styrofoam on top to keep it warmer above the chips but at -20 It still formes frost and ice up there. There is no screened holes on the sides of the Q-box but the top edge of the box has 2 stacked 1/4 inch nuts screwed to the edge to lift the telescopic cover so the vapor can escape, you can see dots in the frost along the edges of cover where these nuts contact the cover...

and another of these boxs


This is the nuc box version I use, it does have vent holes on the ends to let out thte vapor. This way I can stack them side by side and use a migratory cover. I sure there are other versions of these but this is what works for me in the " frozen tundra" LOL....

==McBee7==


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Mcbee you overwinter single deep nucs with quilt boxes? How is your success rate? Also is there a thread on your bee room? Interested in its success or issues


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## MT204 (May 12, 2011)

Insulating a hive is in many ways the same as a house. We want it to stay warm, but we also want to get ride of the moisture inside the house. The worst place for condensation in building is inside the insulation, if it condensates there then you loose the r-value of the insulation. That's why vapor barriers along with proper ventilation are mandatory in building.
This is a very good article that talks about insulation and condensation. It talks about how both moisture and condensation move through a wall/insulation and what the effects are on the insulation.
http://www.tlpca.org/images/articles_condensation.pdf


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

The following may sound like heresy to those who advocate upward ventilation, but all my hives are of the 'condensor hive' format - meaning that they have fully sealed, heavily insulated tops, internally painted uninsulated sides, and open bottoms. And bottom entrances, of course.

To my mind this set-up mirrors the bees' use of propolis, where they take great pains to completely seal the top of the cavity; where they eventually 'paint' propolis all over the cavity walls, but pretty-much ignore the Open Mesh Floor, which they leave completely un-propolised.

Does it work ? - yes indeed. I live at sea level in former swamp land, where the land still has to actively pumped in order to drain it. During winter, the water table can rise to within 18 inches below the surface. In summer, about 24 to 36 inches.
As you can probably imagine this is a high humidity area, and yet the bees dehydrate their nectar into honey without any obvious difficulty.

Here's a picture taken this morning of the condensate from one hive:










Normally such a trickle of moisture wouldn't be visible, as my other hives vent directly onto the ground below them. This one (a 5 over 5-frame Nuc) just happens to be placed on a fibreglass board, so the condensate can readily be seen as it leaves the hive.

For anyone who's interested in the principles underlying condensor beehives, there is a book available on the web entitled 'Constructive Beekeeping' by Ed Clark (1918)* - which I found only AFTER settling upon this method of hive construction and management: a technique incidently, which is employed by many beekeepers on this side of the Atlantic, perhaps without them realising exactly how the excess moisture is being removed ...

LJ

* http://småbruk.se/publication/view/constructive-beekeeping/


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Little-John said:


> The following may sound like heresy to those who advocate upward ventilation, but all my hives are of the 'condensor hive' format - meaning that they have fully sealed, heavily insulated tops, internally painted uninsulated sides, and open bottoms. And bottom entrances, of course.
> 
> To my mind this set-up mirrors the bees' use of propolis, where they take great pains to completely seal the top of the cavity; where they eventually 'paint' propolis all over the cavity walls, but pretty-much ignore the Open Mesh Floor, which they leave completely un-propolised.
> 
> ...


But your average lows in the hardest of winter is what? Right above freezing? And most Northern climates here are at well below freezing for long periods. I think there is a huge difference.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Just read the book, and thanks for the link, Little-John....
I'm amazed at the principles that were discovered and taught 100 years ago that still apply today. I've noticed in the past that there seems to be 2 circles of thought among bee keepers here an BS, and that is some vent moisture away ffrom the hive by letting it out the top and some seal the top to keep in the heat and condense the moisture on a cold wall and let it drain out. I've killed a lot of bees by allowing moisture to condense and rain down from the top of the hive, so I'm a little gun shy to seal the top but can see the principals in play, and may try it to some extent next year.
There's also a lot to digest in reguard to summer hive performance in that little book,, and that is another area I need to concentrate on in 2016, so thanks again for the info and CHEERS

==McBee7==


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

The key is no cold water dripping on the bees. We ditched all our plastic outer covers due to the condensation problems. Water didn't drip directly on the bees, but the inner covers were rotting from being wet ALL the time. Water condensed on the cover and rolled to the side and make puddles on the inner covers.

I depend on my heavy inner and outer covers to prevent water dripping on the cluster. Some of the comb gets moldy once in a while, but I've not lost any to moisture. The wood absorbs quite a bit of water, and there are no projections for water to drip from, it's pretty smooth, and wets easily. I've had damp wood so far, but never enough liquid to pour off to the side.

Peter


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

rookie2531 said:


> But your average lows in the hardest of winter is what? Right above freezing? And most Northern climates here are at well below freezing for long periods. I think there is a huge difference.


'Average' doesn't really work with British weather, as it frequently swings from one extreme to the other - depending on where the wind is blowing from. It's not unknown to be able to walk around in shirt-sleeves for the odd day or two in January - but equally we can have winter temperatures lower than Moscow. It's this variability - and the inability to predict weather patterns which gives beekeepers problems over here, and which often catches people out.

But - the book 'Constructive Beekeeping' was written by an American, and within which he gives data from around the States to support his argument. I haven't taken much notice of that data myself, as - yes, I agree - it doesn't directly apply to conditions over here.

I often hear people say "listen to the bees", "work with them, not against them" and so on ... and then promptly make a hole at the top of the beehive - despite the bees' best efforts to seal that area. Even Warre enthusiasts - they can see how bees propolise the underside of the quilt box - and then talk of bees 'regulating' the air flow. But they don't 'regulate' - they seal - or try their level best to. I've never yet seen a bee remove propolis to improve upward ventilation ...

f you 'do a Google' regarding beehive entrances, you'll find that every country other than those on the North American continent employ bottom entrances. Even the Russians - and it can get pretty cold over there. 

LJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I dont feel that I am letting all the heat escape by using a shavings quilt top. The layer of loose shavings (4") is very good insulation. The bottom of it is warm to the touch in the winter and the top of it is near to the outside air temperature because of the venting above. The shavings do not soak up, hold or adsorb the colony moisture;what the layer of shavings does do is _wick_ the moisture upwards to the top evaporating surface. The heat required to evaporate moisture is taken from the outside air not from the warm air of the bee's space. Yes you can take heat from air even if it is -40F.

It certainly is possible to use top insulation, no openings and take advantage of stratification due to temperature. Providing wind does not sweep it out the heat and moisture will remain in the hive. Bottom openings can be sufficient to effect oxygen and CO2 exchange.

The problem I see is that there will be 100% humidity in the upper atmosphere and in my climate that means ice forming for long periods without thawing temperatures. i have seen frames bridged to hive walls with ice and an inch of ice in the bottom. Bottom entrance would be plugged with ice and dead bees. Spring broodup is not good with screened bottoms so I would not be keen to use that avenue of escape for the 4 or 5 gallons of water that _will_ be produced by a colony of bees during the course of winter.

The laws of physics are the same world around but sometimes our folk explanation of how they work differs. Sometimes something that works after a fashion has implications that we dont connect. I wonder how Nosema is affected by hive relative humidity? Does it affect the phoretic mite survival overwinter. For whatever reason I seem to have an edge in winter survival over folks who subscribe to the _seal her up_ idea. Granted I run lower mite counts than most of them in the area and have my colonies heavy and organized much earlier in the fall. Maybe some other management issues are responsible besides the quilt box hive tops.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Here is a couple of pics of the feed lift ring with small upper entrance incorporated. Made from 2x2 stock. The way the entrance holes are drilled half way through from the front face then out the bottom into the hive provides a wind baffle. This one has hole front and rear of hive but I screen off the rear one and partially close them off in extremely cold weather. The quilt box goes on top.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

kaizen said:


> Mcbee you overwinter single deep nucs with quilt boxes? How is your success rate? Also is there a thread on your bee room? Interested in its success or issues


Kaizen--I used the nuc box quilt boxs on my indoor wintered nucs last year where I controled the temp (40F) humidity and ventilation and set then out when tthe outdoor temps were about 50f in mid april..
}
This year I made special landing boards that reach through the outside wall Heres a photo of laying out the landing boards. I put in 6 nucs today and will add 8 more next week.  It's kind of a souped up version of the old bee hive in the garage with a tube out the window trick....


==McBee7==


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## Andhors (Dec 7, 2018)

There was no mention of the location of the vent holes on air flow. If you have an inner cover with a center opening (versus a side opening ) you will have air flow guided to the center rather than the side. Does anyone think this is significant. 
I have read that a center top vent is good for cooling in summer and side vent is better for winter.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

When you evaporate you cool or remvoe energy form the source of the vapor. Energy in the form of heated mass is added to the air and removed from the wet shavings. I have run insulated, no-top-vent hives in a humid and cold coastal environment for two winters, going into my third. I was told I would kill my bees. Gotta vent and add Homosote to the top (homosote absorption capacity by volume is rather low). I ignored the sage advice after 2 winters, 5 of 6 dead-outs and went back to using my learned skills. I have yet to kill a bee via dripping condensation that I can identify by focusing on conservation of energy principals. 

I do read about wet dead bees. Which occurred first colony death, condensation on live bees or condensation on dead bees? This goes hand in hand with "bees do not die from the cold"- right. I call it fictional observational physics. If the surface temperature, any where, is above the dew point it gets awfully hard to create condensed water. Meanwhile, 6+ gallons of water "disappear" over the winter and even more the rest of the year. The interesting question is how much goes through the walls, how much is dissipated via diffusion at the bottom entrance, how much condenses and drips out and how much water goes out with the bees over a years time. Identifying and quantifying all the paths a molecule of water takes in a one year hive cycle would be a very daunting and difficult task. Imagine a mg of lake water being foraged by a bee, later being combined with or removed from with honey (hydroscopic / drying efforts or consumption) and dumped onto the late Spring snow. 

I do like quilt-like boxes using old cotton tee shirts. They are great for late season feeding and holding weather station sensors.  

A real study of humidity and temperatures inside a hive and cluster has yet to be performed short term or for an annual cycle. The capability to do this is possible now with enough cash.

If you are forming large amounts of ice in a hive over a significant period of time I would suggest more insulation as the heat loss from the cluster out of the hive or hive conductance appears to be unacceptable.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I agree with insulation being first concern. If your insulation is somewhat permeable to an air flow, I think it is a plus in regard to getting moisture out. That removes most of the sole dependance for moisture dissipation at the bottom of the hive. 

I wont be caught again with sole dependance of the bottom entrance for the oxygen and carbon dioxide exchange. I am quite convinced the snow and ice blocked entrances cost me a lot of losses this past season.

This year I left a 1/2" by 1" slotted hole in the feed shim which is between top brood box and the shavings box above. The bees have propolized them down to little more than one bee sized holes.

I wintered bees here for six full years with the shavings box tops zero losses. Last winter for the first time zero top ventilation and lost 5 of 6. Did have unusual snow and ice blockage of bottom entrances so the idea of no upper ventilation might be valid in some conditions.

Obviously many in Europe use the system satisfactorily with the closed top insulated hives and open bottoms.

It is certain though that by *some route or the other*, oxygen/carbon dioxide exchange must occur and some 4 gallons or so of water must escape.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

I'm not sure if this was explained clearly, so I'm going to try to do it. Forgive me if I am being redundant.

A typical inner cover has a rim around the outside, and a board across the middle with a hole in it.

The rim is thicker on one side than on the other. The notch if it is present would be in the thick part of the rim.

In summer, the thicker rim is used against the bottom of the outer cover, so that for a bee to leave through the notch, they have to go up through the hole and crawl in the space between the board of the inner cover and the inside of the outer cover.

In winter, many beekeepers turn the inner cover "upside down", so that a bee can crawl across the tops of the frames to the notch. That is closer to the cluster and somewhat insulated from the cold outer cover.

Next topic, a pound of honey produces about 2/3 pound of water when consumed by the bees. That adds up to a lot of water. 
(I calculated 0.672 lbs, if honey is 18% water, the rest C6H12O6 If you have 2:1 syrup it looks like 0.702 pounds of water per pound of syrup)

In this part of Wisconsin, (southeast) the older beekeepers say "ventilation trumps insulation" . in the past I have wintered with telescoping covers with an inch of styrofoam built in to them, or migratory covers with a 2 inch piece of polyethylene foam on the outside held down with a brick. I usually have a 1/2 inch by 4 inch top entrance, with three of four 3/8 inch holes (3/8" = mouseproof) for a lower entrance. The bees have wintered well without wrapping or insulating the hives, though I suppose they consume more stores than they would if the hives were insulated. These are not the tightest hives either, As I built them myself and I am not a finish carpenter.

As a basic rule of fluid mechanics, ventilation airflow due to convection is determined by the amount of heating in the hive, the vertical extent of the "Chimney" from the cluster to the top of the hive, and the restriction caused by the smaller of the upper and lower entrances. A small lower entrance restricts airflow, while a relatively large upper entrance reduces pooling of warm moist air at the top of the hive.

I often see icicles on the edge of the cover near the upper entrance, but not ice or condensation in the hive.

Research from the 1930's with thermocouples demonstrated that the air inside of the hive is the same temperature as the air outside of the hive, except above the cluster. Based on that it has been conventional wisdom that insulating the hive is ineffective, since if there is no temperature gradient there is no heat flow, so insulation is irrelevant. 
That is likely correct as long as the cluster is not touching the side of the hive. When the cluster is touching the side of the hive, then insulation can be beneficial. That last observation is armchair science, so take it for what it is worth.

My main problem with mold is during the spring buildup, as there is a lot of moisture in the hive, and it is cold outside. A strong colony can't seem to get enough ventilation, but a weak one building up slowly is dry as a bone.

While this has worked for me, I have only a few hives for a few years, so maybe I am just lucky.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

FYI Crofter: I think I understand the problem you are dealing with in deep snow country. I have not had to deal with that issue - so far. Sometimes we get a real blizzard or smaller Nor'Easters. I did come across a Quebec beekeeper who advised a vent pipe installed from the bottom of the hive to a selected height. THis would cover both bottom and top vent getting buried. I also ran across a story about a hive "lost "hive. The beekeeper was standing on / over it. When he dug down he found the top vent had created a vent to the top of the snow and a large cavity had formed around the bottom of the hive. The hive survived. He pointed out ice - snow storms maybe a different issue and he has lost hives to that type of snow burials. Pipe venting seems realistic. 

I have done some searching on CO2 absorption by snow and permeability of snow to oxygen as well as water content in snow. I did not find much even after investigating avalanche burials. 

I am making slip-on 5 sided, 2-inch insulated boxes in pacle of screw panels on. I have decided to leave a 1/2-inch clearance or air gap all around for both practical reasons and to provide a water vapor breathing / vapor pressure path to the bottom. I intend to monitor the air gap, internal temps and some RH values. I have three treatment ideas for the bottom gap. I do not enclose the whole hive but leave a bottom portion to act as a water condenser and vapor exchange zone.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think there may be another issue of importance here and that is the hypothesis that a hive so well insulated on top and all upper surfaces will not have any condensation areas to provide water for the bees to dilute honey for consumption and will fly out seeking water and perish. I do remember seeing a lot of such activity but dismissed it as aged or nosema infected bees leaving to die. My colonies were surviving. I do remember commenting the shavings quilt boxes were so effective much of the sugar on top of frames was not clumping. I now use just one layer of bubble wrap on the front of hive so it will be the coldest surface.

Novice, I have seen other calculations on the amount of water produced by metabolizing honey and that figure appears to be quite correct.

In regards to that old experiment showing no temperature gradient from the cluster to surrounding air and internal surfaces, I think that is highly questionable. Barring a perfect insulation and zero conductance medium there is always heat transfer to surfaces of different temperature. More modern, accurate, and multiple temperature probes surrounding the cluster on all sides show there is heat transfer. Not a lot but it is there. Accurate measurements of food consumption with insulated and not colonies show up to 20% difference. Providing there is adequate stores it might not make a lot of difference in survival and in that case the condensation issues could quite likely be the main controlling factor. From a hard physics view, the statement that "they only heat the cluster, not the hive" is impossible to support.

I saw a computerized workup on the difference air flow patterns in a hive with three inch space below the lower entrance and the bottom board, compared to one with standard bottom board space of 3/4". The implications for air exchange all the way up to the top of the hive above cluster amazed me. My visualization based on the old thermosiphon model sure was not sophisticated enough to give justice to all that goes on in a wintering colony under different conditions.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

crofter said:


> From a hard physics view, the statement that "they only heat the cluster, not the hive" is impossible to support.


I've been thinking about this overnight ...

Imo, it's down to a distinction between an intention and it's consequence. Just as with an electric kettle, the intention is to heat the water only ... but one consequence of doing this is that the kettle itself becomes warm.

If we take two states: tightly clustered and loosely clustered, then we can see that when tightly clustered the insulation surrounding the cluster will be at or near it's maximum, and so very little heat will escape to warm the hive itself. Conversely, when the cluster is loose, it's insulation value will be far less and so heat will more freely escape to warm the hive - that is, the heat escaping from a cluster which then warms the interior of a beehive is inversely proportional to the drop in ambient temperature.

*More specifically, when the ambient temperature is very low and clustering is at it's tightest, thus being a time at which a warm hive would be most beneficial - it is precisely at such a time that the amount of heat escaping from the cluster will be at it's minimum.*

*Therefore I would conclude that the intention of the bees is to only heat the cluster*, and that any heat escaping from the cluster is either due to less than perfect insulation around a tight cluster, or that which is surplus to their needs in the case of a relaxed cluster, and thus could be viewed as being 'waste heat'.
That this heat proceeds to heat the interior of a hive is then but an unintended consequence, and ought not to be viewed as a form of behavioural intention.
LJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have no doubt that heating the hive walls is never their intent. Actually I think the matter of intent is irrelevant. Also no question that the amount of heat transferred to the hive body is relative to the compression of the cluster. I propose that maintaining core temperature is the influential factor. It will vary depending on whether brood rearing is active and apparently can be raised when movement to new stores is required.

While the heat transfer is always occurring whenever the enclosure is at lower temperature than the cluster, the mass and area of the surroundings is relatively much greater than that of the cluster. When not externally insulated, the heat dissipation is such that there is only a very small increase in the wall surface temperature but it *is* occurring! This is probably the root of the saying that they do no heat it. _Heck, if there is frost on the walls it should be self evident they are not being heated!_

Whenever there is heat loss, something else is being heated, unless the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> .......
> 
> Whenever there is heat loss, something else is being heated, unless the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed.


The issue is not the money.
The issue is the amount of the money.

I am seating here at my computer and my body is loosing heat and, thus, I am trying to heat the Universe.
The ratio "heat gain/heat loss" is an essential zero for all practical purposes as I am unable to heat the Universe as much as I try (in this case, which is rather a common case).
Heck, I am unable to even heat the walls of my own house while sitting at the computer - forget the Universe (so I need to burn some natural gas to compensate for my own inability).

And so for the applied purposes, heat loss by object A does not mean heat gain by object B (by default).

In many practical cases, we can safely ignore the fundamental "loss/gain" equality.
Yes, I know, the energy and matter are NEVER lost - but practically this does not matter.
Again, a general school discussion.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

crofter said:


> I have no doubt that heating the hive walls is never their intent. *Actually I think the matter of intent is irrelevant.* Also no question that the amount of heat transferred to the hive body is relative to the compression of the cluster. *I propose that maintaining core temperature is the influential factor.* It will vary depending on whether brood rearing is active and apparently can be raised when movement to new stores is required.


Exactly - their intention *IS* to maintain core temperature - we're talking about purposeful behaviour being exhibited by biological organisms prior to that altered behaviour becoming absolutely essential for their survival - i.e. they predict the need to cluster ahead of time.



> While the heat transfer is always occurring whenever the enclosure is at lower temperature than the cluster, the mass and area of the surroundings is relatively much greater than that of the cluster. When not externally insulated, the heat dissipation is such that there is only a very small increase in the wall surface temperature but it *is* occurring! *This is probably the root of the saying that they do no heat it. *_Heck, if there is frost on the walls it should be self evident they are not being heated!_


Perhaps - my guess is that it's the ability of colonies to provide their own insulation by clustering which was the origin - after all, sometimes bees cluster in the open air, where there is no hive and, if the conditions are favourable, such colonies can still survive.



> Whenever there is heat loss, *something else is being heated*, unless the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed.


But not necessarily immediately - in the case of evaporation of water for example, there is cooling (heat loss) which accompanies the change of state - so suggest you look at the atmosphere *above* the hive - especially when using porous quilts, upper entrances etc. to vent moist air.
LJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregV said:


> The issue is not the money.
> The issue is the amount of the money.
> 
> I am seating here at my computer and my body is loosing heat and, thus, I am trying to heat the Universe.
> ...



_I am seating here at my computer and my body is loosing heat and, thus, I am trying to heat the Universe._
So you are trying to heat the universe? That shows intent. I just came in from 3 hours snowblowing. I heated the seat and a lot of snow on my face and down my neck but it sure as heck was not my intent!

Heat loss (actually heat transfer) is heat loss. Period. It *may* be relatively negligible but that is situation dependent.

The heat lost by the bees is not negligible to them. They react to control it so by definition not negligible. The heating effect on the hive walls, I agree we can disregard, but *the heat transferred to the air above the cluster and the upper surface *is certainly of great importance. The temperature of the ceiling can be tempered by our application ( or not) of insulation and that has a potentially critical effect on condensation.

The surface above the bees is part of the hive. It is the bees that heat it. That is the reason I state that the folklore statement that "The bees only heat the cluster, not the hive" is simply not correct.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

little_john said:


> Exactly - their intention *IS* to maintain core temperature - we're talking about purposeful behaviour being exhibited by biological organisms prior to that altered behaviour becoming absolutely essential for their survival - i.e. they predict the need to cluster ahead of time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But not necessarily immediately - in the case of evaporation of water for example, there is cooling (heat loss) which accompanies the change of state - so suggest you look at the atmosphere *above* the hive - especially when using porous quilts, upper entrances etc. to vent moist air.

You have me there on a technicality. Yes heat loss can be transferred into to other energy forms such as change of state or kinetic energy etc.

That energy transfer due to the change of state of the moisture is interesting and certainly I think it may be far from negligible. How much potential *difference* do you predict, in the moisture moving up through a bed of shavings, compared to having an equal R value impermeable foam sheet and the moisture exchange taking place on hive walls or if fully insulated, at the air interface at an open hive bottom.

I am a bit biased against the latter, due to my experience with possible suffocation last winter. That is your fault! I will claim you talked me into it, though admittedly I did not have a screened bottom.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Bee careful of Computational Fluid Dynamic models - the modeling parameters and constants are everything. I have seen a couple of strange events while instituting my no-top-vent approach, one was really funny upon investigating. With some changes I am making to my insulation methods I will see if I can repeat them. I am sticking with giving the bees a chance to regulate their own environment conditions. I like the old axiom "Bees plug tip vents" when given the chance via adequate insulation and bottom exits. 

One point about insulating with and without a quilt box. Adding a quilt box changes the paradigm. I am beginning to believe the bees can sense the change. In the end I keep reading stuff that continually reinforces the need for a condenser down low and vapor exchange or diffusion chamber year round. Connected is the increase vapor pressure in a hive driving moisture out. As I am learning by observation, propolis playsa role not to be ignored.

The benefit to all this effort, IMO, is not the survivability of the hive but support for the early increase in hive nurse bees and foragers for the Spring flow. Insulating helps early colony increase and reduces stores consumption wasted on heat generation versus brood development. With enough stores provided (per M Palmer hive weighting) I saw my first large early Spring perform like Super Woman. Early light honey is delicious. 

Finally I have never seen a test to verify condensation on the inner cover kills colonies. I have seen bees lined up along the the inner surface of a hive box to cover interface drinking the water coming in from a Nor'easter. Maybe that is why bees choose tree cavities. The top central surface or "top cover" is very well insulated with no top vent.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

FYI: Look up Specific heat of water, vaporization requirements, etc. Condensing vapor to water releases 2,261 J/g which is about 5x more than energy than to heat the one gram of water from 0 to 100C. It is not a trivial number. Honey and air are pretty good insulators.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Of course, I recognize that the conventional wisdom is not exactly correct. What is likely going on is that air is being warmed by the cluster, and as a result, there is a continual flow of air from below the cluster, moving up around the cluster, and then up toward the top of the hive. As a result of this flow, colder air is being drawn into the flow from the sides of the cluster, so conduction losses through the air do not make it to the sides of the hive at the level of the cluster. However, the cluster radiates heat, pretty much as a black body. In addition, heat is conducted through the frames and combs which pass through the cluster.

In fact, I think it is Rusty Burlew over at honeybeesuite who has a fancy thermal camera that can "see" the location of the cluster through the hive walls.

However, if the cluster is touching or near a wall, as it must be at some times of the winter, then it will lose a lot more heat through that wall.

I haven't seen any quantitative information on how much water the bees need in order to liquify their food. While the water from burning honey to heat the hive will likely be in the vapor state, exhaled during respiration, it will likely condense to some extent somewhere in the hive.

I hadn't thought about bees foraging for water outside of the hive in the winter. A lot probably depends on local conditions, and also on the bees. I will have to watch the bees next time they are out to see if that is what they are doing.

This winter I have three colonies wintering in 6-frame hives. I insulated those hives in the narrow direction, since it seemed to me they would have difficulty accessing the stores on the outer walls. Since the colonies are pretty big, I suspect when the cluster is loose it touches both side walls. When I peeked at one on a 30F (-1C) evening, the cluster was at the bottom, and clearly filled the 5 frame gaps to the bottom. Couldn't see up the outside to see if they were there too. What I have noticed is that they are unusually active for the weather we are having. It suspect they perceive the conditions are warmer than they would without the insulation.

Most likely they are using more food, as they are more active. However, if it were really cold outside, not 35F (2C) as it was today, they would probably be using less, as they would be in the small cluster/no brood mode of winter survival.

When I actually weighed hives regularly through the winter (only did that one year, as it gets difficult) the bees used the least of stores when the weather was coldest. 

I have heard there is some recent research showing colonies use less stores and are stronger in spring if the hives are insulated. I haven't found the actual research though. It would certainly be worth looking at.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Robert Holcombe said:


> FYI: Look up Specific heat of water, vaporization requirements, etc. Condensing vapor to water releases 2,261 J/g which is about 5x more than energy than to heat the one gram of water from 0 to 100C. It is not a trivial number. Honey and air are pretty good insulators.


You probably meant - honey is a *good heat *sink due to the high thermal mass.
Thermal transfer resistance of honey is not that high - to be a good insulator.
Thermal mass <> thermal transfer.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> ........That is the reason I state that the folklore statement that "The bees only heat the cluster, not the hive" is simply not correct.


OK, I knew this.
Unsure who even argues.


Back to my "heating the Universe" example.
The energy intake by the Universe from me is > zero in theoretic sense.
And yet it is ~zero - so negligible.

The energy loss *BY ME* - significant -* at the same very time.*
My feet are cold, for sure, in this basement.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

I meant what I said and I appreciate the "heat sink comment". In the world of relative values I will resort to the Wikipedia Honey site comment: " Unlike many other liquids, honey has very poor thermal conductivity of 0.5 W/(m⋅K) at 13% water content (compared to 401 W/(m⋅K) of copper), taking a long time to reach thermal equilibrium.[60] Due to its high kinematic viscosity honey does not transfer heat through momentum diffusion (convection) but rather through thermal diffusion (more like a solid)" . Not as good as EPS foam at 0.033–0.046 W/(m x K) but pretty good as a natural product used for other important purposes. 

The interesting thing about liquid honey, to me that is, is the low convection effects and characterized by conductive values less than water or pine wood used to make enclosures. From a material point of view it is thermally more resistive than current, typical hive construction materials. Coupled with its' specific heat characteristic, it make honey a player in buffering rapid temperature swings. It is also isolated in small cells which further resist convection currents unlike standard hive air which is a poor conductor but very susceptible to circulation currents and increasing convective heat transfer coefficients. Convection currents could lead to significant heat loss from the cluster - unless blocked. 

One day it will be interesting to see a complete 3D dynamic thermal model of a cluster + various hive designs which also takes into account bees system control abilities like thermal regulation, expanding and compressing the cluster, opening through cluster vents and "dew point" control (a hypothesis of mine) based on limited data as well as humidity - fanning effects.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Robert Holcombe said:


> I meant what I said and I appreciate the "heat sink comment". In the world of relative values I will resort to the Wikipedia Honey site comment: " Unlike many other liquids, honey has very poor thermal conductivity of 0.5 W/(m⋅K) at 13% water content (compared to 401 W/(m⋅K) of copper), ......


I would certainly not use water as an insulator:


> Water 0.5918[12]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thermal_conductivities

Which is very similar to honey at *0.5*.


To speak of good natural insulators, dry snow is a good example (order of 10 difference from honey/water):


> Snow (dry) 0.050[4]–0.250[4]


Or indeed air (at about 0.02 - 0.03) - also order of 10 difference from honey/water.
Even generic soft wood (at 0.1-0.2) is much better insulator than honey.

These are the proper materials to compare honey with for thermal conductivity, not aluminum or copper.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Robert, I am sure Greg must have missed the convection component of the equation.

Interesting forehead slapper for me too. I had considered honey to be similar to water in conductivity. The convection factor in both it and air is a game changer!

Thanks.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Robert Holcombe said:


> <Snip>
> 
> Finally I have never seen a test to verify condensation on the inner cover kills colonies. I have seen bees lined up along the the inner surface of a hive box to cover interface drinking the water coming in from a Nor'easter. Maybe that is why bees choose tree cavities. The top central surface or "top cover" is very well insulated with no top vent.


What about all the horror stories about upper surface condensation dripping on the clusters and killing the bees. "Cold does not kill the bees, condensation does" etc.

I agree that insulation to prevent condensation on the top is the way to eliminate potential problems with dripping. Also reduces the amount of heat the bees have to produce to maintain their desired cluster temperature. Added benefit, less honey consumed and less moisture produced.


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