# Selling Swarms



## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

interested to hear answers on this as I had somebody ask to buy a swarm also.
really hard to be certain of what you are selling. unless you hive them and wait for brood. at which point I would price it as a nuc I guess.
might be attractive to the niche who wants 'natural size bees' where your caught swarm may have come from a feral colony. hive them on foundationless frames. then you are transporting fresh comb. maybe deliver right after catching. then they get what they get and they don't get upset.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

The price for swarms would be dependent on several factors. First is location, where you are. Then, the wooden ware that they are hived in, and then, whether or not the queen has started laying, so the buyer can see what pattern the queen is laying. With all that said, to answer your question...

Here in Kentucky, a swarm caught in April or very early May, and in new deep chamber, with new bottom board, inner cover, and top, will bring $150.00 to $200.00 depending on size, (number of frames covered, and if sold after queen begins to lay.) Swarms in used equipment, and sold before queen starts to lay will go for $125.00 to $160.00. Price may vary wildly based on your location, but this is a starter. I dare say you can sell every swarm you can collect. There is always a market for bees in Spring and early Summer, regardless where they come from. In short, demand exceeds available supply. That's why for years, I sold bees, (complete hives and 5 frame nucs) rather than make honey.

Of course there are drawbacks to buying a swarm. Several unknowns, i.e.... ,age of queen...mites...species....etc....but... If someone has waited to buy until there are no bees available, it is an option to get into bees. Swarms also have some good qualities. The right mix of bees to immediately go to work...fantastic on drawing comb...and if caught in Early April can often make one to 5 gallons of honey the first year.

My recommendation..Does it fit your needs, based on positive and negative aspects of swarms. If so, go for it, buying or selling. A starter for price is $125.00 to $200.00 in Central Kentucky

cchoganjr


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

I sell swarms, nucs from current splits with new or "raised their own" queens and over wintered nucs but the customer knows up front what they are buying. If they ask about the differences, I try to explain the differences ya'll have mentioned above and any associated risks of each option. The key point is no one is being deceived on the products and the final decision is the customer's. Typically, swarms are sold $30 below my current year splits/nucs. I also only transfer the frames to the customer leaving transportation equipment to them or will sell them (at cost) a "store bought and unpainted plywood nuc box." Any used equipment is never permitted to physically enter my yards.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I stopped collecting swarms as a free service a long time ago, due to it being too time-consuming. If I'm called out these days, I now charge for this service - and then give away the swarm free-of-charge as it's cost me nothing.

Likewise, if a swarm should arrive at this apiary - it's cost me nothing to produce, so again I give it away free-of-charge. The benefits of doing this are seen later in the goodwill it generates.
LJ


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

rsjohnson2u said:


> How did you price them compared to a split/nuc?


Either a bale of hay, a silver spoon, or a fly.


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## seanconnery (Apr 16, 2014)

There is something non quite right in beekeeping culture about selling swarms......


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

When I was starting, I was trying to do it by catching swarms. I would have bought a swarm if I could have found somebody that was selling one and could have got it $30 bucks cheaper then a package and it was local. I am a cheep guy and just wanted some bees under my care as cheep as I could do it. This put me a year back cause my first year, I did not catch any swarms even with 12 traps out. I put 16 traps out the next year but bought a split just in case and caught two swarms before I got the split to my house, go figure. I don't think I would have payed just to know where a swarm was that I could go and try and catch though. 
I live 70 miles from most of the places I found that would have packages delivered to as pick up spots when called and I just wanted to deal with somebody that lived around me. If it was a swarm and was not more expensive, I would have been all in. Now that I have bees, I would not buy a bee at any cost but it was differrent when I was having a hard time getting my first bees.
Cheers
gww


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

gww said:


> Now that I have bees, I would not buy a bee at any cost but it was differrent when I was having a hard time getting my first bees.


Yup. I have an acquaintance who would _love_ to buy a swarm right now, but no one's selling. I'd give her one of mine, except that I have 3 people in line in front of her!


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

seanconnery


> There is something non quite right in beekeeping culture about selling swarms......


So it is ok to make a split (artifitial swarm) and sell it but not catch a swarm from your hive and sell it? Bees either have value or they don't.
Cheers
gww


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

seanconnery said:


> There is something non quite right in beekeeping culture about selling swarms......


Could you please elaborate on this????

cchoganjr


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## seanconnery (Apr 16, 2014)

Value...? yes bees do. However there are some societies that know the price of everything and the value of nothing....
Look, its just my opinion and belief system....nothing more.


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## seanconnery (Apr 16, 2014)

What is it about this opinion that is not clear? Perhaps not everything in nature needs to be monetized. I simply presented an 'argument' for discussion.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Seanconnery
Then disscuss it and don't just make a blanket statement that says, that the way it is and make comments that insinuate others are dumb cause they don't see what you see as far as what is valuable. It is hard if you say that is the way it is period but also say, I said it for discussion. Here is a question for you. Should bees be kept at all or left to there own devices with humans taking nothing from them?
Just Saying.
gww


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

seanconnery said:


> Value...? yes bees do. However there are some societies that know the price of everything and the value of nothing....
> Look, its just my opinion and belief system....nothing more.





seanconnery said:


> There is something non quite right in beekeeping culture about selling swarms......


There's a big difference between "just my opinion" and "y'all all are 'not quite right'".


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## seanconnery (Apr 16, 2014)

Your profile tells me your work/income depends on swarms. Perhaps this may apply: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” - Upton Sinclair.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

seanconnery said:


> Your profile tells me your work/income depends on swarms. Perhaps this may apply: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” - Upton Sinclair.


To whom are you responding? I sell infrared imaging equipment, so making money from bees is the farthest thing from my mind. If I ever started counting the money going in and out from my bee hobby, it would cease being fun for me.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Rather than catching a swarm and selling it, I would prefer helping someone catch their own swarm, for free. If my income was derived from selling bees, this would not apply. Thankfully at his point I am a hobbyist.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

seanconnery said:


> Value...? yes bees do. However there are some societies that know the price of everything and the value of nothing....
> Look, its just my opinion and belief system....nothing more.


You got that right, but let me ask, do you charge for your products professor? the designs, photos, lectures?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Seanconnery


> Perhaps this may apply: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” - Upton Sinclair.


"A person that argues by insinuation and put down of things he has imagined of others is not really having a discussion of an issue" -gww
Cheers
gww


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Swarms I catch thru our local bee club communication I don't sell. I keep them for atleast a year before splitting or turning into honey production. Its part of the rules. 

As far as price. The size and quality of swarm can vary alot, as should also the price. Some virgin swarms can be quite small and arn't worth much at all. Some won't even survive thru winter without alot of babying. On the other hand, big prime swarms can be very valuable. They can easily fill out a deep in a week or two and need a second box a few weeks later. They also tend to have a very high winter survival rate. 

If i did sell swarms, I personally wouldn't sell a swarm directly as a cluster without putting them on comb or foundation until i see good laying pattern. If you sell a swarm as a cluster I think you need to price it as frames of bees or pounds of bees. So 3lb is like package price or slightly higher because a swarm is typically better than a package.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

burns375 said:


> If i did sell swarms, I personally wouldn't sell a swarm directly as a cluster without putting them on comb or foundation until i see good laying pattern.


But then of course, it's no longer 'a swarm' ...

Once you've invested time and/or resources on that which may well have started out as a swarm, it then becomes a colony - for which (by the criteria I personally employ) it's justifiable to make an appropriate charge.

The problem I see with 'swarms' is that they are an unknown entity - there's no way of even guestimating how they will develop, and I personally (and ultimately it's *always* a personal decision) wouldn't want to risk my reputation for the sake of a few pounds/dollars.

Should bees have a monetary value ? That's for each person to decide for themselves. My approach is not to charge for the biological material itself (as people can always catch their own swarms for free) but restrict my charges to the time and resources I've invested in a particular colony.

So at this apiary - swarms are free, and unwanted q/cells are free - everything else has a price.
LJ


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

The ethics of swelling swarms is for each to decide. In my OP, I mentioned (potential) buyers were contacting me. THEY made the effort and the offer to buy something I had not put up for sale.

Rob


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I am not a good seller of anything. I have not sold a bee and have sold about $75 worth of honey so far. What I am is a proponate of full disclosure. As long as you are representing what you actually have honestly, it is up to a buyer to decide if what you have has value and you to decide if the value the buyer puts on is worth it for you to give it up. I gave a swarm away for the price of good will I might get from doing it and may sell one some day and would have bought one if given the chance when I was starting.

I just say that at least the last few poster give reasons for their views on the subject with out pointing out everyone else is flawed except me. They talked about the actual issue and their reasoning rather then just using quotes from others as put downs. We do not all have to think the same way as long as we are not hurting others with the way we do think.

I would have been thrilled to have been able to buy a swarm at one time. I did not care how I got some bees but wanted some so that I could start learning. 
Cheers
gww


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

One thing I find is that new(er) beekeepers are convinced swarms are "better" than packages. They seem bought in to the idea swarms are "feral/survivor" bees with superior genetics. I have a hard time buying in to this notion.

In my agricultural county, most old timers believe that 9 out of 10 swarms here come from managed (mismanaged?) hives. Many swarm calls we get are near where residential and agricultural land butt up. Also, my suburban calls are typically near backyard beekeepers. I have a neighbor 4 houses away whose hives swarm every year. She has told me she likes having bees, but is afraid of them, and inspecting them makes her nervous.

Last year, I caught two swarms with marked queens. One with the current year color, and one with the color of the year before. Not very feral, unless there are some fairies in the forest that paint queens for fun.

Rob


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

rsjohnson2u said:


> One thing I find is that new(er) beekeepers are convinced swarms are "better" than packages


Ide much rather have a 3lb swarm than a 3lb package. Ide pay more for it if I were buying bees. Typically queens are better quality, mated properly and the winter success rate is just better.

In my area we don't have Africanized. I think that would be the only exception when a package could be better.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

burns375 said:


> Ide much rather have a 3lb swarm than a 3lb package.


Let me preface by saying I sold bees for more than 25 years before retiring last year. I sold splits from brood stock, but I agree, I would rather have a swarm than a package. If you have ever seen how packages are made up, you know that you have no idea what mix of bees you have in a package. The bees are shook from multiple hives, then metered into the wire cages. Then a new queen placed with the package. 

With a swarm, you have the right mix of bees to start the new colony. They go to work immediately, are comb drawing fools, and if the queen is good, or if you replace her, a swarm will out produce a package in honey production the first year. Swarms are normally a little cheaper, which allows you to replace the queen.

I find nothing ethically wrong with selling swarms as long as the customer knows it came from a swarm. I have never seen the value in telling a customer that he did not want a swarm, If he asked, specifically, for a swarm, and willing to be put on a waiting list to get one. For years I had customers, on waiting lists, for swarms. Some of them are Beesource members. Maybe some of them will chime in here. Some would want the swarm, as caught, some would want the queen replaced. I used Minnesota Hygenic queens for all my splits, and I did recommend that the queen be replaced, unless she is laying a very good pattern, if so, no need to replace until Fall or next year.

In all of our conversation here about, Morals, Ethics, Value, etc...We have gotten off the original poster's question, which was, how much do people get for a swarm, if they sell them. Let's try to help him out, if you have or do sell swarms. Maybe someone will be near his area of the country. 

cchoganjr


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## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

I’d say swarms are better than packages, feral or not. They get cast from a hive that overwintered, probably without much management, and one that is strong enough to do so. That’s as good of a proven track record as you can get, all things considered. But I have picked up my share of dinks and duds too. I’ve sold good ones, but only after hiving them and monitoring their performance. My entire apiary came from nothing but swarms and cutouts, and my efforts with them.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

All the swarms I've encountered in this area are as nasty as h#ll - with one notable exception, which I've gone on to breed from. The only explanation I can offer is that those colonies have become 'hot', and as Rob suggested - their owners become afraid of them, and so those hot bees swarm, are collected by an unsuspecting novice - and the cycle then repeats itself.
LJ


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Ide charge the going rate by the pound for packages. If you put on foundation for a few weeks charge going rate for nucs. 

I don't think there's anything wrong with selling swarms. Likely folks are recieving a better product b/c it was made by the bees and not monkeyed around with by humans. I don't live in an area with africanization.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Rob, hopefully your question was answered and you wouldn't mind a slight deviation from the original post.

Some of the interpretations of a swarm is interesting and begs a question. How long is a swarm considered a swarm or when is it no longer considered a swarm? I assume everyone agrees on a basic definition that the congregation of bees that leaves the hive for the purpose of reproduction is a swarm.

It seems more than a few do not consider it a swarm once it's placed in a hive/on foundation or drawn comb. Which would seem to imply a swarm in a bait hive or into a hive for transport is no longer a swarm. Which changes the whole "do you sell swarms" question/concept.

Personally, I consider captured "free hanging" or bait hive swarms as "swarm hives" until either I requeen or they overwinter. Unless someone specifically wants a "fresh off the limb" swarm, the colonies are placed in a yard and monitored to ensure there is a queen, she's laying and all the standard quality measures of any other nuc/split/hive but they're still considered "swarm hives." I explain the swarm nucs/hives are cheaper because I have less effort in them and they still have the swarm queen, which means I have no clue as to her genetics, age or longer term attributes or attitude. 

So is a "boxed" swarm still a swarm or when is/can it no longer be considered a swarm hive?


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Good consideration. If I am keeping it, which is 99% of the time, at what point it goes from a swarm to a hive makes no difference. If I am selling one I personally would call it a swarm if, like mentioned, it had not overwintered or been requeened.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Eikel said:


> Some of the interpretations of a swarm is interesting and begs a question. How long is a swarm considered a swarm or when is it no longer considered a swarm?
> 
> It seems more than a few do not consider it a swarm once it's placed in a hive/on foundation or drawn comb. Which would seem to imply a swarm in a bait hive or into a hive for transport is no longer a swarm. Which changes the whole "do you sell swarms" question/concept.
> 
> Personally, I consider captured "free hanging" or bait hive swarms as "swarm hives" until either I requeen or they overwinter.


Eikel... I tend to agree with you. If you catch "free hanging bees" or catch bees in a "catcher, swarm box" They are still a swarm and an unknown quantity, as opposed to bees coming from a managed hive. Until they have been requeened, they are an unknown quantity of bees.

Unfortunately there are a lot of terms for beekeeping that does not really fit the reality. For instance.. many refer to the empty boxes, with a frame or two of comb, maybe lemon grass oil, etc,...as swarm traps. Technically they are not swarm traps, as they do not trap anything, they simply attract bees. I have always thought they should be called swarm boxes, swarm catcher boxes, or some other term rather than "swarm trap."

cchoganjr


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

Since this thread has been up, a local beekeeper has advertised a "a fresh swarm caught yesterday" at $65.00 on Craigslist So, unknown origin, no vetting of queen, size not listed, etc.

Rob


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

Last year I caught a swarm on a fence. It filled up my 8-frame deep. Had to smoke to keep the bees inside the box. By the time I got home and remembered to put a queen excluder on the bottom to ensure swarm stayed put, all 8 frames were full/almost full of honey from their honey guts. Priceless. Wouldn't sell at any price.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

One thing about catching swarms or trapping them, It is not free and some are easier then others but all are a bit of work. It seems that it is free but if I add the gas to bait or retrieve and the setting up of new hives, splits from exsisting hives start to seem easier. They are so fun though.
Cheers
gww


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

rsjohnson2u... If the bees are in a cardboard box, wire cage box, or something else, in other words, no standard bee keeping equipment, that is a decent price, for an unknown quantity of bees. If they are in standard bee equipment, with frames, I would consider that a very good price, IF, you are willing to buy an unknown quantity of bees. Or, if someone just wants "swarm bees" for whatever reason.

For the past many, many , years I maintained a list for people who wanted swarms, not splits. Many people want them. If the bees came from an area that had no managed hives anywhere close, to some, they were more valuable than those that came from an area which had managed bees, and likely just came from some beekeeper's hives.

Your post has certainly generated a lot of discussion about ethics, morals, value, terminology, etc, considering price and selling swarms. Some very good discussions. My advice, do what works for you.

cchoganjr


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Unfortunately there are a lot of terms for beekeeping that does not really fit the reality. For instance.. many refer to the empty boxes, with a frame or two of comb, maybe lemon grass oil, etc,...as swarm traps. Technically they are not swarm traps, as they do not trap anything, they simply attract bees. I have always thought they should be called swarm boxes, swarm catcher boxes, or some other term rather than "swarm trap."


I prefer “bait hive,” as it’s highly descriptive, and it tends to encourage more discussion amongst non-beeks, for whom the word “swarm” carries a negative, frightening connotation. 

Of course after the discussion “swarm” is no longer scary, but I find “bait hive” leads to a better discussion.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

> I prefer “bait hive,” as it’s highly descriptive, and it tends to encourage more discussion amongst non-beeks


 Couldn't agree more, it's amazing how many conversations I've had when the bait hive term has come up. Along with the inquisitive, "so you just set this box out and they move in?" "And this happens all the time?"


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

“Fishing for bees!”


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

To me, a bait hive is a regular hive, currently unoccupied, that is in the apiary and lure is added to attract a swarm, even one of your own. A swarm trap is any box placed outside of the apiary for the same purpose. Semantics, sheesh.

I think I'm going to hang a little "For Rent" sign on the front of the box so the bees will know why it is there.


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## Adamd (Apr 18, 2009)

The problem with a swarm is that you don't know what you are getting (or selling). This includes disease / mites / bad temper. And by nature there's a good chance that they have come from a swarmy colony so you are perpetuating swarmy behaviour. I usually find that when I am asked to collect a swarm I have to re-queen because the queens are failing or have bad tempered bees. If a swarm is hived by an experienced beekeeper and then assessed for behaviour, mites and disease, then there is some value in them.


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## KatyBusyBee (Apr 6, 2014)

In addition to the ethics of selling swarms you must consider the legality. Some states don't allow the selling of feral hives due to AHB hybridization.


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## gklagan (Feb 7, 2015)

There's a guy on Craig's List for Asheville NC offering $50 bounty for swarm calls if he's successful when he tries to catch them. Sight unseen swarms are with $50+labor to that guy. Package sellers around here are selling out at $120 for a 3lb box and $160 for Nucs. Brushy Mtn in Boone NC was up to $200 for a nuc. Seems like it's a sellers market for bees right now.


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