# swarm cell vs grafted queen



## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I would have to say that swarm queen cells are about the best you can get. It shows a strong, healthy hive, that is doing what nature intended.

Most hives can be manipulated to control swarming, so increased swarming tendencey can and should be controlled anyway.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

You should tell that guy that you know a bunch or people that would love to know his source of commercial queens that won't swarm.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Trying to breed bees that won't swarm is like breeding cattle that won't mate. It is self defeating.


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## shughes (Jan 17, 2007)

almost every one of my hives swarmed this year so i have lots of cells. this is really my first year raising queens in a larger quantity in addition my first year with established hives. i was under the impression that when you see capped swarm cells its hard to stop swarming. 

so i had a plan this year to take the original queen along with 2-3 frames of brood and stick them in a nuc and let the hive raise their own queen. they swarmed anyway...one hive swarmed 4 times. i think my mistake is I should have taken more bees with the original queen and not left as many swarm cells. what i saw was the first queen emerged and i found some queens cells that were stung but she did not get all of them, then when the other queen(s) emerged the original emerged queen swarmed. somtimes the new queens were mated and sometimes they swarmed as virgins. lesson learned  

what is interesting is the only hive that did not swarm was the hive i threw drawn out super comb on. my bees starting drawing wax the first week of march which is also the week i started seeing swarm cells. i don't know if the draw out super comb helped or not since i could not compare to another hive but i did find that interesting. 

i won't get as much honey this year but my hive count more then doubled and i am selling nucs to friends to offset the lost income from the reduced honey crop this year.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

shughes

you raise an interesting question
when you find a hive with swarm cells how do you deal with it?
I found one last weekend and took 2 frames with cells and a couple more and made 2 small nucs out of them
of course this is WAY easier that finding the queen and putting her in a nuc
if you put the queen in a nuc you leave all those virgins to cast swarms
I suspect there is no "best" solution but a discussion of approaches would be interesting

Dave


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Snelgrove had a method of getting a reigning queen to knockdown queen cells but I just don't have the time to check on all my colonies every few days to see if they are raising queen cells. When I find queen cells I make nucs as indicated by Shughes but I place a nuc in the location of the old hive so the field bees will be seperated from the nurse bees. Seperating the two age groups further reduces any additional swarming tendency and makes for a really strong nuc that can be split again before the end of the season if the timing allows.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

ok, let's label our approaches

1) take the queen and put her in a nuc
2) take all the queen cells and make nucs out of them

I would argue that if you take approach 1 you leave all those virgins in the hive and lots of resources to cast swarms

if you take approach 2 you get several nucs and you reduce the resources in the hive so "maybe" you head off a swarm 

of course with approach 2 the hive is pretty much toast for honey production for the year, you've taken to many resources

what to do, what to do?

Dave


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I don't buy into the "swarmy" comments over the years.

What I do buy into is the fact that with raised queens, I select from the best of the best hives. When I evaluate queens in the spring, maybe 1 in 100 make the cut, based on certain criteria. Now thats not to say the other 99 hives are crap, just perhaps not what I want to base my queens on.

So why should I rely on swarm cells from 1 through 99 to base my quality of queens for the next generation of queens? I would be better off managing my swarming, thus maximizing honey production and profitability per hive. And raise my queens from the best I have.

That way my production hives are not wasted or diminished in any way, and I know that I control my genetics by criteria I want.

I can not see how having the management plan of letting my hives swarm to get swarm cells is good in any sense or reason.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have been surprised about the quantity of swarm cell divides that are unsuccessful. I have had a few over the years with a dozen cells, made three or four divides, maybe only 50% got mated queens.


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## shughes (Jan 17, 2007)

drobbins,

how about a third option, 

3) take original queen and make a nuc. make sure you take enough bees with her so the colony feels like they are missing part of the population. then only leave a cell frame with 1-2 cells of the same age with the parent hive. for added insurance, take an extra frame with cells and stick in a queen castle with a frame of honey in case the parent hive cell does not take. 

HVH's suggestion also sounds like a good idea. I may play with that one as well next year. 

i think my two mistakes this year is that i was too conservative when taking the original queen. i had one dead out that left plenty of pollen and honey frames so i used those to my advantage when making original queen nucs....i probably should have taken more resources in March when I found the cells. I think I also left too many cells as the 1st queen to emerge was not able to sting all the cells. The other attribute that hurt my swarm management was weather and timing....I have a day job that does not allow me to have flexibility in working my hives during crucial windows unless I take PTO and when the weather is bad on a weekend...well, that kind of hurts


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## RBar (Jun 22, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Trying to breed bees that won't swarm is like breeding cattle that won't mate. It is self defeating.


True, but, generally you don't have to worry about half of your herd of cattle flying off every early spring!
;-)
Roy


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I think most practice swarm management, and never seem to grasp swarm prevention.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Swarm cell queens are far superior to grafted queens, actually any queen is superior to a grafted queen. I believe that in the hirearchy of quality queens, grafted queens are at the bottom. Swarm queens are what nature intended for reproduction of the species and nature knows best. Comparing the two is like comparing a McDonalds hamberger to one you get from the local family owned diner. The McDonalds burger will fill your stomach, but you will get the %^$# from it later.


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

You shouldn't poke at folks like that bluegrass!


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I am not poking really Just trying to make the point that the bees can choose the proper larva for queens a lot better than a guy/girl with a magnify glass and a grafting needle. The theory that swarm cell queens will mother colonies that are more prone to swarm is ridicules.

How many of us have bought commercially reared queens just to have the bees supercede them shortly after requeening?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Swarm cell queens are far superior to grafted queens, actually any queen is superior to a grafted queen.

Jay smith thought so:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#The Grafting Method
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Shortcomings of the Grafting Method

So did C.C. Miller:
"Many of our best beekeepers abandoned the grafting method after giving it a trial. I once wrote a paper, which was read at a meeting of the National Beekeepers Association, setting forth the shortcomings of the grafting method, although I was using it as the time. Dr. Miller wrote, "I say Amen to that."--Jay Smith, Better Queens


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

So let's talk about methods for raising queens that do not require grafting.

Do you consider a Jenter type system that moves a larvae from a worker to a queen without touching it - is that still the same as grafting?

Hut the method of cutting comb and destroying every other cell and hanging the cut portion of the cells to hang down like a queen. (To me this is the same as a Jenter system, just using wax instead of plastic cells.)

How do we entice the queen to lay in cells that are queen cells from the start?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

The problem I have with grafting is the mechanical handling of the larva. It also requires that the grafter pick the larva at the appropriate age. Most beeks are getting up there in age and their eye site might not be so great anymore; or they become complacent because they can raise a queen and sell it and nobody knows the difference if the larva they used was too old.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you consider a Jenter type system that moves a larvae from a worker to a queen without touching it - is that still the same as grafting?

Only sort of. It is transferring the larvae, but you get all the royal jelly and no risk of physically damaging the larvae.

>Hut the method of cutting comb and destroying every other cell and hanging the cut portion of the cells to hang down like a queen. (To me this is the same as a Jenter system, just using wax instead of plastic cells.)

It's not grafting. But it is changing a worker cell into a queen cell by changing it's orientation.

>How do we entice the queen to lay in cells that are queen cells from the start?

I know of many experiments to attempt this. I know of no successes.

Jay Smith, for one, was intent on this goal and gave it up eventually.


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