# wax foundation for starter strips



## tbeddy (Feb 7, 2008)

I use all medium frames and am going to start to use foundationless frames this year. The shallow wax foundation that I already have is a larger cell size, will the girls continue with the original size of the starter strips or once they get below the starters will they begin to make small cell foundation for the brood area? Thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Probably they will make the cells below the strip smaller. But why not just buy some popscicle sticks and use those. They are permanent and they won't mislead them into making large cells.


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## Robee (Dec 9, 2007)

*popscicle sticks?*

I read this here somewhere or perhaps on the Bush site.
I am concidering this method in my top bar hive. Do you need to use the sticks all the way across the top bar or just one in the middle?
Thank You,
Rob


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

All the way across is best.


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## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> Probably they will make the cells below the strip smaller. But why not just buy some popscicle sticks and use those. They are permanent and they won't mislead them into making large cells.


Please explain how you use the popscicle sticks. Thanks!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Just buy the "jumbo craft sticks" at the craft store (Michaels, etc.) and glue them into the groove on a grooved top bar. Or, if you have one with a cleat that's not broken out, glue it into that groove, or if the cleat IS broken out, glue and nail it in like it was a piece of foundation. If it's a top bar hive, cut a groove in the center of the top bar.

You'll probably have to use two whole sticks and one part of a stick. Sorry I don't have a picture.


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## tbeddy (Feb 7, 2008)

Thank you for the advice, sticks it will be.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

popsicle sticks are marketed as craft sticks. jumbo craft sticks are toungue depresser size and in my opinion are too wide.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

....my bees don't agree 

but seriously, we've had good luck with the jumbo craft sticks, with a few hundred frames drawn out beautifully last season. whether smaller sticks would be better would be an interesting side by side experement.

deknow


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## Black Creek (May 19, 2006)

*another thumbs up*

I've had great success with the popsicle sticks too. I always end up with wavy foundation using whole sheets. almost all of my nice straight combs are starter strips and popsicle sticks.


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## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

Can these be glued in using hot wax, or is something more permanent suggested? Does it help to wax the sticks?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would glue them with exterior wood glue. But that's me. Anything will probably work.


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## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> Just buy the "jumbo craft sticks" at the craft store (Michaels, etc.) and glue them into the groove on a grooved top bar. Or, if you have one with a cleat that's not broken out, glue it into that groove, or if the cleat IS broken out, glue and nail it in like it was a piece of foundation. If it's a top bar hive, cut a groove in the center of the top bar.
> 
> You'll probably have to use two whole sticks and one part of a stick. Sorry I don't have a picture.


Do you start a whole super of 10 popsicle stick frames, or do you alternate the popsicle stick frames with frames of drawn foundation?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you start a whole super of 10 popsicle stick frames, or do you alternate the popsicle stick frames with frames of drawn foundation?

I often do a whole box of foundationless frames. I sometimes, if it's handy, put a drawn comb in the center to get them headed in the right direction. One frame with foundation would probably serve the same purpose. I would not alternate with foundation.


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## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Do you start a whole super of 10 popsicle stick frames, or do you alternate the popsicle stick frames with frames of drawn foundation?
> 
> I often do a whole box of foundationless frames. I sometimes, if it's handy, put a drawn comb in the center to get them headed in the right direction. One frame with foundation would probably serve the same purpose. I would not alternate with foundation.


Thanks, Michael. I am going to try some foundationless frames this spring. It will be a first for me!


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

*Confusion*

I stay confused. I thought you had to place each empty frame between a drawn frame as a guide. Boy do I complicate things!!!

10 foundationless would surely be easier!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Each frame will need some kind of guide. You can put a plain frame between two drawn brood combs and the brood combs will act as a guide. OR you can put a starter strip or wooden starter strip or triangular top bar as a guide. A drawn brood comb on each side is only necessary if you don't have any other guide.


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

I like that---thanks for the clarification!


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## Jas0n Bresson (Feb 3, 2008)

Does anybody have a pic of how this is done, I'm very visual. Or maybe direct me to some liturature.Thanks


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does anybody have a pic of how this is done, I'm very visual. Or maybe direct me to some liturature.Thanks

How which is done? The popscicle sticks? The box full of frames? I don't have any pictures of the popscicle sticks. But I have some of starter strips (which is the same thing except wax) and of the triangular top bar:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

ok, just uploaded:
http://www.BeeUntoOthers.com/foundationlessempty.jpg
http://www.BeeUntoOthers.com/foundtaionlessfull.jpg

deknow


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## Jas0n Bresson (Feb 3, 2008)

Thanks, I would have had the sticks going up and down.I told you I was visual.


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## Beorn (Apr 15, 2007)

*placement of starter strips*

I want to go foundationless in my honey supers also. I heard that if you put a frame with the starter strip above a fully drawn deep the bees will do weird stuff. It was suggested that the starter strips be placed on the bottom of the frame when putting anything above the bottom deep.

Opinions


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

No. Strips or guides always go at the top.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I heard that if you put a frame with the starter strip above a fully drawn deep the bees will do weird stuff. It was suggested that the starter strips be placed on the bottom of the frame when putting anything above the bottom deep.

Occasionally in the cool spring weather I've seen them build comb from the bottom bar up. But if you put something in for a ladder in the center (one frame with a full sheet of foundation or one drawn comb) they tend to not do this.


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## sentientsoil (Apr 20, 2008)

*does size matter?*

*bump*

ok, so how small can the popsicle sticks be and still get away with this? I have some popsicle sticks handy that are the average size and leave maybe 1/8" beyond the groove of my frame... too little?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

should work ok...but i prefer (and use) the bigger sticks ("jumbo craft sticks").

deknow


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

You don't need much. 1/8" is enough. I use the center one....
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/sled5.jpg


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## Blitzz (Feb 13, 2009)

Hi you all,

Any advise installing a package in foudationless frames?

(besides prepping the frames)


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

....i'd use a queen includer until i saw capped brood.

deknow


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## Blitzz (Feb 13, 2009)

What would happen if I leave the naked wires in the *foudationless* frames?

Would they get embedded eventually or they will build twisted combs?

For the top bar ,I will rip 2x4 and tuck the strips then coat them with wax.

Why an excluder? I am going to use one mid size hive body, should I use more?


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

tbeddy said:


> I use all medium frames and am going to start to use foundationless frames this year. The shallow wax foundation that I already have is a larger cell size, will the girls continue with the original size of the starter strips or once they get below the starters will they begin to make small cell foundation for the brood area? Thanks.


In my experience, they will build 
5.3 on standard foundation
5.4 on wooden starter strips and
5.5 on small cell foundation, when they build worker comb.

And all this after being kept 3 years without the influence of standard
foundation (for the non-standard foundation hives)

More details to come soon on
www.acbeekeepers.org 

click on SARE in left column


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What would happen if I leave the naked wires in the foudationless frames?

They will be incorporated into the comb.

>Would they get embedded eventually or they will build twisted combs?

No, if the hive is level and the wires in the the center they will be incorporated into the comb.

>For the top bar ,I will rip 2x4 and tuck the strips then coat them with wax.

No need to coat anything in wax.

>Why an excluder? I am going to use one mid size hive body, should I use more? 

One medium box for a hive? It will take seven or so for a hive.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>In my experience, they will build
5.3 on standard foundation
5.4 on wooden starter strips and
5.5 on small cell foundation, when they build worker comb.

That has not been my experience. My experience is that many packages right out of the box will often build 4.7mm in the core of the brood nest. The edges are another matter.

But whatever they build it's natural sized comb and it's free of chemicals.


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