# Surprised by how damp the quilt box was...



## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

We use burlap sacks. Free at your local coffee roaster and can be dried easily.


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

I use pet bedding from Walmart, BIG bag for @ $8.00


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

I use three layers of burlap, and then as many layers of fiberfill batting to fill the box. I leave it all winter and dry in the spring.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I think sawdust is too dense for the job. I use coarse pine shavings from Tractor supply in my QB.

I have a neighbor who has bees and she filled her QBs with shavings/sawdust mixture that is much denser, with much smaller particles than mine. When I checked her hives yesterday I was surprised at how damp the material was compared to my own (even though we live quite close to another). I don't think it's less optimal than what I use (and it may be more insulating).

There other question I have is what's above your QB? I have a shim with a wide open vent hole and 1.5" of foam insulation tucked up in my telecover. I don't use an inner cover with the QB on. My friend has a shim with a hole, then an inner cover and a tele w/o insulation. One of her inner covers showed signs of excess moisture with mold, but the other did not. The one with mold is older and for some reason it is painted; the other one is very new and unpainted, and was in pristine condition.

She has two layers of very thin muslin sandwiched around a layer of screening to support the shavings.

Notwithstanding the moisture I think her QB is doing its job.

My own, less dense, material is working very well as I often see moisture venting actively from the upper hole.

You might change out to a less-dense material (a bale of the "soft" pine shavings is only $8 at TSC) to see if you like that better. I don't think the fabric material (burlap vs. muslin vs. woven polpropylene ground cloth, for example) will make much of a difference but after seeing the state of my neighbor's colonies yesterday I'm pretty sure the filling does.

Enj.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JConnolly said:


> how often do you change the sawdust in them during a winter?


If you have to change the sawdust they are not working well. There needs to be enough ventilation to keep at least the top layer dry.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Quilt box material needs to able to slowly vent from bottom to top and thereby get the moisture to the top. Shavings work very well to allow this slow ventilation of air and moisture to the top.

Once the moisture makes it to the top, it needs to be exhausted. You need a space above the shavings and a min of a 3/4 hole on front side of quilt box. Hole should be above the shavings. I also have 2 1/2 inches of Styrofoam permanently fixed in under side of outer cover. Frost does not form in the center of the underside of the outer cover but there is at times some frost around the perimeter.

I also have two top entrances that exhaust most of the moisture. This system worked quite well before quilt boxes. The addition of quilt boxes made it better yet. The top entrances are a 3/4 round hole in a feed shim and an open 1 1/2 notch on top side of front of an inner cover. Inner covers have a 3 1/2 round hole in the center and are immediately above the feed shim.

Having no moisture problems at all. Ponder whether interior is too dry as there is so little moisture in the interior. Feces from cleansing flights is stringy in appearance.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I would use planer shavings, not sawdust, it's too dense. Moisture needs to move through to the outside, not freeze and saturate the material. Coarsely chopped oak leaves should work too, but even saw mill sawdust is probably too dense.

In a natural hive, water condenses on the cold sides and pools in the bottom where the bees can use it, also condenses in the outer comb. Box hives have the disadvantage of condensing water on the bottom of the outer cover over the bee escape hole, which can allow cold water to drip onto the bees, killing them.

I had great luck this year with some solid inner covers or no inner cover at all, just sugar above the cluster on paper (which they removed). Happy bees in all hives so far, and they are all quite heavy yet but one, which is still OK but lighter than the others. 

Peter


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

Don't make it too dry. Bees need to dilute the honey/syrup to feed their youngs. If the quilt is damp the bees will be able to suck the needed moisture. As long the moisture is not dripping on them, you are fine.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

When I lived in upstate New York and dry Maple leaves were plentiful in the fall, I shredded some and used them in my quilt box., which was a medium with some coarse fabric scrounged off of an upholstered footstool I was tossing.

in a Medium Quilt box, it worked wonderfully...in midwinter the top 1/4-3/8" was very damp, but the rest was very dry, and when I put my hand all the way down by the fabric, it was toasty.

I had 1/8" x 3/4"x3/4" spacers glued on the top corners of the box, and they provided plenty of ventilation w/o cuttin holes in a good medium box.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

JConnolly said:


> For the last couple of weeks I've been monitoring my hives for signs of activity to see how they came through the winter. The last three days have been warm but I wasn't home during the day to see any activity. Today I was off and I saw all of my hives had bees coming in and out. So yeah for that.
> 
> I experimented with quilt boxes this winter. I was surprised how damp the saw dust in them was. I think I'll leave them on for a couple more weeks but I've got to get some new saw dust.
> 
> For those of you who use quilts, how often do you change the sawdust in them during a winter?


This was my first year so I made them with 4inches about of space to put animal bedding in supported by painters drop cloth. under the fabric I left a 2inch space for feeding sugar. bored 2 or 3 2 inch holes on each side of the box. 
My results were every single one of my boxes were dry. I moved it out of the way and felt down to the fabric and not noticeably moist or warm. not what I expected. The only strange thing was I had a 2 story nuc whose holes on the quilt box had 2 inches of clearance but were not directly hit by the wind. On Feb 1st I found the quilt box still dry but the sugar had all obviously absorbed moisture as it was just a goopy mess. I threw it out and put in more and they ate all of it as of yesterday. just strange.


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## Frgrasso (Dec 18, 2014)

I use wood shavings in my Quiltboxes
There just 1x4 shims with heavy canvas
Stapled to the bottoms , all mine were 
Bone dry last week and I haven't changed 
the Bedding once this winter


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

My QB is very similar to that described by Enj in post #5. The box is built out of 1X4's, bottom covered with #8 hardware cloth, filled to the brim with pine wood shavings, screened 1" holes at the 2" level - total of 8, 3 on long sides & 2 on short sides, small piece of a yard stick nailed to the top front two corners of the box to hold up the OC. The OC is designed and built with 2" rigid foam built in, and no IC used during the winter. The QB has an upper entrance (1 X 3/8") designed in the front bottom and the lower entrance is the same and also open, and SBB is open but restricted all winter. Seven winters X 10 colonies = no ice or moisture problems.

Steve


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I finally settled on deep box's for my quilt box set-up they seem to be the best height . I wanted my vent holes to be above the shavings for better circulation across the top of the shavings where they get damp and still allow for 5-6'' of shaving depth , I have never replaced any shavings yet during the winter and have re-used shavings the following year after they have dried out .A 2 1/2'' feeding shim below the quilt box for sugar bricks with a 7/16 hole for a upper entrance and more ventilation , and no inner cover when the quilt box is on .Seems to work good , I do notice alot of condensation on the tuff r insulation in the telescoping cover when I take it off to add more sugar bricks but this is expected from what I have been told from the warm air hitting the colder surface of the insulation , are the other quilt box users getting the condensation also on the telescoping cover.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Laketrout, I do not find any moisture in any phase (liquid, solid, or gaseous) within the hive at the top because it has had ample opportunity to be swept out before reaching the top. The wood shavings are not even moist.

Steve


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

My quilt boxes don't ever seem to have any moisture in them at all. They have 4x1" holes towards the top (screened, two each on the long sides of the box) to allow rising moist air to escape and a notch for a top entrance. This year I decided to go with 3" feeder rims with a top entrance notch and there's no evidence of any moisture related issues stemming from internal moisture. One hive has an issue because of a poor lid design/set up... that's on me. The only evidence of moisture with feed rims is that the upper entrance can frost shut when it's really cold. But that doesn't seem to last very long, I think the sun is usually enough to help melt that out.

I use the horse bedding from a local farm store... this is over a mesh screen bottom. There's really barely any of that in there even, maybe 1-1.5" of the pine shavings. There should really be more, but I never got around to filling them up this fall when I put them on.

I don't plan on building any more quilt boxes, I don't really see the benefit compared to the feeder/top entrance shims that I have now. The quilt box is much more difficult to get open for a quick winter sugar addition, protein patty add, or cluster check.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Laketrout:

Regarding condensate appearing on the under surface of the insulation of the cover: it varies depending on the outside atmospheric conditions when I take the box off. 

When the air is very cold and dry (outside) there is little condensation visible, but typically when I'm taking the tops off to check on the sugar bricks it's (relatively) warmer and there is visible moisture on the foam insulation tucked into the lid- sometimes enough so that it drips off in a heavy shower when I'm inverting the cover to lean it against something while I'm working on the hive. 

There is usually more visible moisture towards the end of the season than there is in early December.

This is the same pattern I see with visible condensation around the vent holes aboce the the shavings (with the lid on) at night. It may be that early on the shavings are dry enough that they absorb most of the moisture and hold it, then as they become saturated the box begins to "work" to exchange that moisture with the outside air. It would very interesting to have some logging hygrometers above, below, and within both the shavings and the feeder space below.

Since the moisture originates in the metabolism of honey by the bees, the size of the colony, its position, and the honey consumption rate would make a difference, too. As we all know, compared to the early-winter period, the rate of hive weight loss really ramps up towards the end of winter when the brood rearing gets underway in earnest. Perhaps all things being equal, a change over to more moisture being visible around the vent holes, in the shavings and on the foam under the cover is another sign of the brood rearing status. Wouldn't it be grand if dripping insulation meant your queen was happily back on the job?

Certainly no moisture seen on the underside of the lid, or in any aspect of the shavings, combined with no _warmth_ at the bottom layer of the shavings would have me extremely concerned. I don't like to rap on the boxes to confirm that there are bees alive in the hive. (And it's hard for that to be effective through inches of outer insulation.) If I am ever worried, though, I just stick my bare fingers down into the shavings to feel the heat the bees are giving off.

Thinking of your deeps used as QBs I was wondering if one could make a bag to hold the shavings, perhaps resting on an interior ledge around the perimeter to keep the bees properly contained within the feeding space, but with the bag of shavings supported from above. If the ledge was recessed up into the boxes the height you wanted for the feeding space you could have an all-in-one "winter box", with an easily replaceable muslin container for the shavings. I find the hard work of stretching and securing the cloth floor to be a barrier to making/using QBs, and I don't like a screen floor for various reasons. But a bag has definite possibilities. See back in the Dark Ages when I was in school, girls went to Home Ec and boys went Shop, so the idea of making up the bag seems a piece of cake, but the thought of a carpentry project seems overwhelming.

Do you think an all in one box would be difficult to tip up to check on the bricks or patties? it would certainly eliminate the draftiness of a late-applied part of the hive, and multiple joints, including the one on the bottom edge of the QB itself where the fabric is stapled.

Oh, oh, just now thought of this idea: to moderate the excessive- perhaps harmful - loss of the hive's humidity through the QB (If that's actually a real problem.) You could simply set a small piece of non- permeable material (a piece of glass, with ground off edges for safety would be an example) on the upper surface of the fabric. It would be a limited area of vapor barrier and the fabric would be come saturated underneath it, and the bees could drink that moisture as needed. If it was set off the central area, it would likely not result in the harmful drippiness over the cluster. My bees are often actively moving around within the feeding space so they would find the moist patch, I think. Whatcha think?

Enj.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

laketrout said:


> I finally settled on deep box's for my quilt box set-up they seem to be the best height . I wanted my vent holes to be above the shavings for better circulation across the top of the shavings where they get damp and still allow for 5-6'' of shaving depth , I have never replaced any shavings yet during the winter and have re-used shavings the following year after they have dried out .A 2 1/2'' feeding shim below the quilt box for sugar bricks with a 7/16 hole for a upper entrance and more ventilation , and no inner cover when the quilt box is on .Seems to work good , I do notice alot of condensation on the tuff r insulation in the telescoping cover when I take it off to add more sugar bricks but this is expected from what I have been told from the warm air hitting the colder surface of the insulation , are the other quilt box users getting the condensation also on the telescoping cover.


Think one hole located above the shavings in the quilt box is enough. If you have more, the underside of the telescopic cover(mine is plywood cover on 2 1/2 Styrofoam permanently in telescopic cover) is near ambient temp and moisture will condense on the cold surface.

In cold temps, I get frosting around perimeter of underside of telescopic but a large oval area in the center remains dry.

I also use my inner cover above my feed rim. It has a 3 1/2 round hole in the center and likely directs the heat upwards moreso towards the center of quilt box and underside of outer cover. Inner cover has a 3/8 rim on top and front 1 1/2 notch is left open. Rising heat and moisture spreads laterally in the 3/8 space. Area above the inner cover stays dry.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Enj,

Re: your Home Ec. comment, I use a pillow case full of wood shavings in the upper most 5 frame NUC box for insulation/moisture absorption. The "stack" is: 5/5 full of bees, a partially screened with 1/2 inch hardware cloth IC, an empty 5 f NUC box with the shavings filled pillow case, and the OC. As the season progresses, the pillow case is replaced with sugar bricks &/or 1:1 syrup.

Re: Your fabric covered glass plate comment: I'm confused! It sounds like you must want moisture in the hive. In my case, all my north facing slopes at still white with snow and on sunny days when it is flying weather, the girls can fins plenty of "free" water.

Steve


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Steve,

Re my glass plate idea: Lately I'm been pondering if my bees in my well insulated. and quilt boxed hives might be being deprived of moisture they need and can't find in the hive in the winter. So I've been pondering how I might remove most of the moisture (which I think can be harmful) while still supplying a small controlable quantity to meet their needs. I was thinking a smaller area of condensation plane might do the trick. (I have also speculated about small plates filled with a damp natural sponge, etc. No clear solution, yet.) I do not use any IC below my quilt box. I left one on by accident once and was surprised at how much visible moisture damage there was on it, even with a quilt box above the large hole in the center.

My bees go out in the winter to search for water, perhaps driven out in unsuitable temps, when they can perish. I'd like to manage that better. And I often have periods where even my intrepid swarm-mutts won't leave for six weeks or more. 

I also really don't like to have a screen mesh as the "ceiling" of the feed cavity. I frequently need to scrape the festooning bees off that surface and if it's fabric I can do that safely and very quickly with gentle sweeps of the hive tool. Looking closely with a magnifying glass at the bees hanging from screening showed me they had their little tarsi hooked into the screen and I believe scraping them like I do would cause amputations. My QBs are on most of the year so I am often opening QB'd hives for inspections and you need to get those bees off before setting the QB down. 

My little notion today of containing the shavings in a self-supporting bag hanging within the deep QB is intriguing. I've been sketching it up this afternoon.

BTW, most well-used pillowcases have a thick layer of laundry chemicals, some of which contain benzene in the interstices of the fabric. That's why I use new twill for the fabric parts, except in emergencies when I am improvising a QB for someone else in mid-winter.

Enj.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Enj,

I'll have to mostly reply to you tomorrow because I'm about to go to the eye doctor to have an assessment about laser burning the crud offthat is growing on the back side of my cataract replacement lens, and also the possible cataract surgery on the other eye, and I don't expect to be able to see my computer until tomorrow. I must say, however, that I do like your out of the box thinking because that is very much like my thinking. Two quick suggestions for your festooning bees: a) give the super with the festooning bees a good hard bounce before removing it, or b) just pick it up and temporarily store it on top of a super with no frames.

Catch you later.
Steve


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

enjambres said:


> Steve,
> 
> Re my glass plate idea: I do not use any IC below my quilt box. I left one on by accident once and was surprised at how much visible moisture damage there was on it, even with a quilt box above the large hole in the center.
> Enj.


I leave my inner cover installed with notch facing up and wide open(1 1/2) and no moisture at all on either side of inner cover. Top side of inner is vented by air flow up through hole in inner cover and out the open notch in rim.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Yeah it can be pretty wet as you described , when taking the lid off I sometimes give it a good shake to get rid of the excess condensation and I agree most of the time I wait for warmer temps to add sugar bricks so maybe that has some affect .I like the cotton floor seems to work good , I had heard of problems with screen . Tipping the quilt box up to add sugar bricks is pretty easy and straight forward but I did learn a little trick last time up , it was pretty warm and the bee's wanted to escape the feeding rim area and if I set the quilt box down it would have crushed alot of bee's so after I added the sugar bricks I kept a small piece of wood maybe 1/2'' thick between the quilt box and the feeding rim so bee's wouldn't be crushed , buy the time I was working another hive all the bee's would go back inside on there own .I have more wood shavings this year but I wouldn't think that would cause more condensation if anything I would think less because less warm air is getting through the shavings .I'll look closer next time and see if the hives with more bee's have more condensation .


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Enj et. al.,

After re-reading everything today I'm not sure what was on my mind late yesterday when I shut down. Anyway I had the crud burned off the back side of my artificial lens with a YAG laser capsulotomy procedure and I can see much better today. I also have an appointment for cataract surgery on the other eye in a couple of weeks. Woke up this morning with two inches of beautiful new snow so there is lots of moisture for the bees.

I do not seem to be as concerned about having moisture available inside the hive for the bees as some are, but I think that that is a "different strokes for different folks" thing. Basically everybody has the same and the right idea with some sort of absorbent material near the top of the hive that will collect excessive moisture from within the hive and over time release it back into the atmosphere without allowing liquid water to fall and harm the honey bees below. Like with all beekeeping I think that we all have to adjust and tweak our approached to the local environment, thus there will be differences and similarities. The one rule that I think that is common is: If upon inspection the absorbent material is damp or solid with ice, it should be replaced with dry material, and additional ventilation should be added in its place. 

Cheers,
Steve


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Bear Creek Steve said:


> Basically everybody has the same and the right idea with some sort of absorbent material near the top of the hive that will collect excessive moisture from within the hive and over time release it back into the atmosphere without allowing liquid water to fall and harm the honey bees below.


Water will drip on the bees if the moisture is not given up fast enough to the atmosphere because it will freeze and lose all the ability to absorb more water. If you see frost in the quit material you have a critical problem that needs dealing with. Replace for sure, but just replacing on a schedule could be risky.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@BearCreek Steve,

Glad your eye things went well and you can see better. My husband had both of his eyes de-cataracted (not at once!) and was very pleased with the results. I hope yours works out as well as his. (He actually wound up with good enough vision to stop wearing glasses for distance vision. Not bad for a dude with a Medicare card.)

I think my concern about lack of moisture resulting from too-effective QBs is coming from comments about bees needing to drink in the winter, and using the condensation of the hive body sides. And the possibility that removing so much moisture through QB use might have an adverse side-effect to the beneficial results. 

My concern was recently elevated because I watched the youTube linked in another post about wintering bees and there was mention in that of bees leaving the hive to seek water and being on the ground in melt and on the sides of blades of grass, and getting chilled to death. Mine do that and they also fly into snow, and perish there, too. Maybe they would anyway, I don't know. 

What I do know is that the bees are generating an astounding amount of moisture and the QB is moving a lot of moisture through and out of the hive. When I think of how much, it give me the willies to think of it all being contained in a typical hive with perhaps only the notch in the inner cover to exhaust it. (I also see the moisture-stained innards of hives set-up like that when I help out a friend who runs 200 colonies.) 

I usually only see dampness (or frost) on the upper layer of the shavings, and of course often on the underside of the insulation tucked into the telecover above. In really frigid (I am Z4, here) weather - I am not opening the hives, so therefore I don't see it, and perhaps these areas are frozen. Though I have seen vapor trails exiting the vent hole, and frost build-up around with temps in the 20s F. But it doesn't really matter because the shavings dry out promptly, and are invariably dry to the touch, with no evidence of staining or mildew down below where it matters, next to the bees, Every time I open the hive I stick my paw down in the shavings to check on that.

This has been (relatively) warm, and very rainy winter, perhaps the heavy condensate I am seeing on the underside of the insulation in the cover is related to that. I don't recall it being that much in prior years. (Though this year is the first I have not over-wrapped my hives in heavy winter blankets. Perhaps that has created more of a thermocline at that point.)

@Ace,

How about next year you try a QB on one of your hives and see how they work?

Enj.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

This winter I added a vent hole above the shavings in addition to previous eight one inch diameter side holes in quilt box. 

Moisture venting is going so well I have not had any frosting happening at either of the top entrances. We have not had much cold weather, however in previous winters the top entrances holes would nearly frost over.

Bees have been flying at low temps, however there is not many new dead bees in the snow. I too ponder whether they are foraging for water??????? I am not overly concerned as we have had a number of flying days and they have been able to bring home water. Feces is thin string like, making me think some lack of water. Plan to do a Nosema check but am thinking it is okay due to dryness of hive.

Ace could also monitor mite levels and have a strategy to control them. And he could add some insulation on the sides of his hives to further improve the wintering results. The temp on the underside of my quilt boxes is well above freezing temp and hence no freezing water in the quilt box.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

enjambres said:


> @Ace,
> 
> How about next year you try a QB on one of your hives and see how they work?
> 
> Enj.


For me I believe it would be a mistake. Although we are approximately the same zone we have lake effect which means rapid changes in temperature AND moisture levels. I have actually witnessed water running out the entrance of some hives, mostly in the spring, end of winter.
A two inch foam insulation board on top of my cover works well for keeping the moisture from condensing on the inner cover so I am very reluctant to change my method especially when I lost my very first hive to water dripping on the bees.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

mgolden said:


> The temp on the underside of my quilt boxes is well above freezing temp and hence no freezing water in the quilt box.


The top of the quilt box will be below freezing at times so if a lot of moisture is in the air passing up through it will freeze. It is just a question of how much moisture the quilt box has to deal with. The minute the rate is too much your goose is cooked. If it nerve gets too much then the goose is golden. If frost is going to occur it will occur on top first then work its way into the wood chips choking off the ventilation making it even worse. The result is the QB will become useless in a short period of time once it starts. I believe it is much to risky for someone in my area to adopt this method of overwintering. I am not saying it doesn't work for you.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Acebird said:


> The top of the quilt box will be below freezing at times so if a lot of moisture is in the air passing up through it will freeze. It is just a question of how much moisture the quilt box has to deal with. The minute the rate is too much your goose is cooked. If it nerve gets too much then the goose is golden. If frost is going to occur it will occur on top first then work its way into the wood chips choking off the ventilation making it even worse. The result is the QB will become useless in a short period of time once it starts. I believe it is much to risky for someone in my area to adopt this method of overwintering. I am not saying it doesn't work for you.


There is 2 1/2 inches of Styrofoam embedded in under side of telescopic cover. This insulates the quilt box from top side. Center of quilt box, bottom, center, and top of shavings never freezes because of rising warm air from cluster.

If by chance, ventilation through shavings somehow got choked off, ventilation created by bottom entrance and two top entrances always worked in the past.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

mgolden said:


> There is 2 1/2 inches of Styrofoam embedded in under side of telescopic cover. This insulates the quilt box from top side. Center of quilt box, bottom, center, and top of shavings never freezes because of rising warm air from cluster.
> 
> If by chance, ventilation through shavings somehow got choked off, ventilation created by bottom entrance and two top entrances always worked in the past.


If you have vent holes above your QB the insulation above that doesn't do much and you would have freezing temperatures at some point. If you do not have vent holes above your QB then no moisture is vented through the QB. Either the insulation is not doing much or your QB is not doing much depending on where you place the vents. If your vents are below the QB then essentially you just have another medium of insulation besides the foam. That would be the same as mine only you have more insulation.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Acebird said:


> If you have vent holes above your QB the insulation above that doesn't do much and you would have freezing temperatures at some point. If you do not have vent holes above your QB then no moisture is vented through the QB. Either the insulation is not doing much or your QB is not doing much depending on where you place the vents. If your vents are below the QB then essentially you just have another medium of insulation besides the foam. That would be the same as mine only you have more insulation.


There is one 3/4 round exhaust port on top side of shavings. Moisture is migrating/venting up through shavings and out the 3/4 exhaust port.

Shavings stay warm because of heat from cluster and insulation on sides and bottom of hive and 2 1/2 Styrofoam in under side of telescopic cover.

Maybe try a quilt box. It might even work.


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

I'd never heard of a quilted box before I read this thread. You all have quite a lot more to deal with over the winter than I do! If we get snow here (and that's a HUGE if) it's gone the next day, and it's been a few years since I've seen snow on the ground here. I do see it on the mountains though!


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

I think that this has been a great discussion about a common problem by experienced beeks with experiences in differing environmental conditions. I think that the differences in our observation has a lot to do with the differing environments; severity of the winters, relative humidity, temperature, amount of snow, etc. For example, the size and level of the vent holes either within the wood shavings or above them, or both is likely determined by your relative humidity and/or how breezy it is in your bee yard. It goes back to "all beekeeping is local." 

I would like to try to sort of summarize the information so that a newbee looking at this thread can quickly grasp the essence of the thread. 

o The quilt box (QB) is like a shallow super of approximately 4 inches in height with a bottom consisting of either screen wire (#8 ?) or fabric. The sides of the box have one or more holes drilled in the sides to allow moisture vapor to pass outward.

o The box is filled with some sort of light weight material which serves two purposes: insulation, and moisture absorption. The most commonly used material is light weight wood shavings however many other materials can and have been used such as straw, dry leaves, crumpled up newspaper, wool blankets, etc. The depth of this material can be a few to several inches and the material is sometimes replaced/refreshed during the course of the winter if it becomes damp.

o The purpose of the holes drilled on the side of the box is to permit the free movement of moist air from inside the hive to the outside essentially powered by natural convection and air movement on the outside. The holes are commonly one inch in diameter and frequently covered with #8 hardware cloth to prevent insects from entering. The holes may be drilled within the depth level of the absorbent material, above the top of the absorbent material, or a combination of both. The purpose of this arrangement is to provide a location where moisture laden air rising from the cluster of bees can accumulate temporarily before it is dispersed to the atmosphere. If designed correctly there should never be enough liquid water accumulate in the absorbent material create a drip which could fall on the bee cluster below. Ideally, in the case of the wood shavings, they are continually both absorbing and releasing moisture by evaporation 24/7.

o The use of a QB does require periodic inspection during the winter to insure that it is functioning as designed and the absorption material is not moist or frozen. If moisture is present in the absorption material the material should be replaced, and most likely additional ventilation holes added. 

o Some beekeepers leave their QB on the hives during the summer months to reduce the solar heat gain and others remove them and keep them in storage until the next fall.
==========================
Here are a of picture of my hives in winter garb. All have four inch high QB's under the camo tarp rain/snow cover. The purple colored hives are current and have R-10 foam on all four sides and top.







==========================
Enj: In full agreement with your post #26.

Steve


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Great job Steve, I especially like this one:


Bear Creek Steve said:


> o The use of a QB does require periodic inspection during the winter to insure that it is functioning as designed and the absorption material is not moist or frozen. If moisture is present in the absorption material the material should be replaced, and most likely additional ventilation holes added.
> 
> Steve


I would guess that it is the primary reason why you don't find them on commercial hives and most definitely is why you won't find one on mine.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jlaudiofan said:


> I'd never heard of a quilted box before I read this thread.


I would think that the last thing you want to do in a dry climate is pull moisture out of the hive.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

I have never changed shavings in three years of use as the shavings were never too damp. Maybe it's a local thing.

Think you are cherry picking, Ace.

A small exhaust hole above the shavings allows moisture to escape. 

I'm not too worried about frozen moisture in my shavings when the top side of the shavings in quilt box is 59F as it is today. Ambient today is 37F.









Top side of shavings was 46F and bottom side was 69F this AM and I did my Walmart errand!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

mgolden said:


> I'm not too worried about frozen moisture in my shavings when the top side of the shavings in quilt box is 59F as it is today. Ambient today is 37F.


I don't know what the weather is like in Alberta but if ambient was 27 degrees lower it should be approaching 32 on top of the shavings. Do you get colder than 10 degrees outside?


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I don't know what the weather is like in Alberta but if ambient was 27 degrees lower it should be approaching 32 on top of the shavings. Do you get colder than 10 degrees outside?


Bees produce more heat as ambient lowers and spread increases.

Never had shavings so wet that I gave any thought to changing shavings.

And if somehow shavings froze at the top and stop ventilation, there is two top entrances that more than adequately exhaust moisture.

There is no dripping but if there was I also have an inner cover below quilt box that drips would fall on. There will be few to no drips where warm air is rising through 3 1/2 hole in center of inner cover and hitting quilt box.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mgolden, I think Steve did an excellent job of recapping this thread. I don't think your quilt boxes are acting anything like a quilt box is intended but I think you are happy. Try to convince Mark in Brasher Falls that he should use quilt boxes designed as you think they should be designed. I have no interest.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Try to convince Mark in Brasher Falls that he should use quilt boxes designed as you think they should be designed.


:scratch: :s

Why should Mark be be talked into using quilt boxes? Surely you can remember that Mark's bees winter in _South Carolina_!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> :scratch: :s
> 
> Why should Mark be be talked into using quilt boxes? Surely you can remember that Mark's bees winter in _South Carolina_!


Not all of them ... You don't remember??? Must be slipping Rader.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Lets see, you think Mark B should be talked into using quilt boxes on the relatively few hives that he winters in New York, and yet _you don't even use quilt boxes on your own hives_ (also located in New York)!

See Ace's comment about his own _non-use_ of quilt boxes earlier in this same thread, in post #35 here: 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...382300&highlight=won't+find+mine.#post1382300

:lpf:

.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Lets see, you think Mark B should be talked into using quilt boxes on the relatively few hives that he winters in New York,


Absolutely not. I think Mgolden should convince Mark to use them before I waste my time on my hives.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Acebird, if you think Mark should use quilt boxes in SC, have at it.

It is abundantly clear that you have little understanding of many facets of beekeeping.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@BearCreekSteve:

That's an excellent summary of the physical description. Mine differ in only one respect: I have no holes in the QB itself, only a single 1" diameter in the shim above the QB. There actually is a second hole, in the back, but I keep it plugged up in winter when I have a tarp covering the massed hives to keep rain and snow-melt from getting down between the layer of the insulation panels and freezing. I wouldn't want the vapor exiting under the tarp. In the warm months the second hole in the shim is left open.

My QBs are actually three pieces: two shims (one of which doubles as the feeding rim) and the box itself, which is a re-purposed comb-honey depth super. 

@Ace,

I am perplexed why you think QBs wouldn't work for you - I'm quite sure they would work extremely well. 

I think you are confused by the name "quilt box"; it's not a warmer, it's a moisture management tool. If you're seeing free water running out of your hives, you really ought to give QBs a try.

Aside from making the QB initially (and re-skinning it annually if you leave it on all summer) the additional amount of work to have them on your stack is trivial. The benefit is great.

Enj.




.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

enjambres said:


> I am perplexed why you think QBs wouldn't work for you - I'm quite sure they would work extremely well.


There is an element of risk as Steve suggested. If you don't inspect the hive on a regular basis there are atmospheric conditions that could cause the QB to fail.


> The benefit is great.


This is something I disagree on. I do not see what benefit the QB has over what I am doing now which is walking out to the hive and throwing a 2" chunk of foam on top of each hive and replacing the weight on top of that. In the spring when there is no danger of frost I remove it and if I didn't it wouldn't matter anyway. I do not see the need to complicate beekeeping by putting a requirement to check the hive through the winter and spring season. You are more than welcome to do that yourself.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

JConnoly back to your question , if you are using sawdust try replacing it as soon as possible on the next 50 plus day you get its just to dense for the purpose , make sure its all out the best you can so it isn't stopping air flow up through your quilt box and use pine shavings , I saw them at TSC for around 6.00 for a big bag . Most of us I think are going to see some condensation depending again on your location , in my case I feel it means its doing its job in removing excess moisture with out it contacting the bee's .My shavings get damp but never to the point of really wet , like I said I haven't needed to replace them yet so even though there damp I feel that the moisture is being ventilated away and on a constant basis absorbing more moisture in a on going process .I wintered in 4 mediums this year with some big colonies so maybe there is more moisture but I think you will see quite a bit of condensation on the inside of the top cover at times .Good luck keep working with it and you will find what works for you in your location , if your bee's are dry your winning the battle .


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Laketrout,

:thumbsup:

Steve


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## Kuro (Jun 18, 2015)

I had to replace pine shaving once in a while when my quilt boxes were only 3” deep and had several 1/8 holes. After I made new ones (6” deep, four screened 1” holes) I never had to worry about it. 

Also, sorry for being a bit off topic but some posts in this thread mentioned that a quilt box might make hives too dry. It is almost spring here (Zone 8b) and my bees are actively foraging for water. Does this mean I should remove the quilt box now?


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

If bees are foraging for water and ambient temp is warm enough bees are returning to the hive all is well. Bees will have water to dissolve any crystalized honey.

The concern of being too dry occurs during temps that are too cold to be flying. If hive hive is too dry and well insulated, there will not be any/enough condensation on the interior and hence no water supply. Bees can be malnourished if they only have crystalized honey and no water supply to dissolve it. The lack of water may also cause bees to attempt to forage for water when ambients temps are too low for flying. Bees will not make it back to the hive.


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## Kuro (Jun 18, 2015)

mgolden said:


> If bees are foraging for water and ambient temp is warm enough bees are returning to the hive all is well. Bees will have water to dissolve any crystalized honey.
> 
> The concern of being too dry occurs during temps that are too cold to be flying. If hive hive is too dry and well insulated, there will not be any/enough condensation on the interior and hence no water supply. Bees can be malnourished if they only have crystalized honey and no water supply to dissolve it. The lack of water may also cause bees to attempt to forage for water when ambients temps are too low for flying. Bees will not make it back to the hive.


Thanks!


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## Mud Songs (Sep 30, 2010)

I used to keep my hives, with hard insulation over the inner cover, in an area that was foggy and damp most of the winter. The insides of the hives got soaked like this...









The white stuff in that photo is dissolved sugar soaked from the excessive moisture.

Then I added quilt boxes, or what I call moisture quilts, like this...









All of my hives were dry within a week and the bees had no problem eating the dry sugar over newspaper that I gave them.

I could often feel the heat rising from the cluster and noticed a damp spot in the wood chips like this...









But the bottom layer of the wood chips was always dry. I have no doubt the moisture quilts (or quilt boxes) saved my bees. I've written about it in more detail here for anyone interested:

http://mudsongs.org/moisture-quilts-vs-hard-insulation/

I've since moved my hive to a dryer local climate and I've noticed the wood chips in my moisture quilts never get damp and the dry sugar I feed my bees (in case they need it) is so dry that it crumbles at the slightest touch. That has me concerned as well that it's too dry for the bees to dissolve and digest the dry sugar, though so far this winter the bees seem okay with it. I've been told by a beekeeper with years of experience using moisture quilts that the bees' respiration will give them enough moisture to dissolve and digest the dry sugar.

But next year I think I'll switch to hard insulation over the inner cover on a few hives to see if it makes any difference. Judging from what I've seen so far this year, I think I could make the switch without any harm to the bees.

As usual, all beekeeping is local beekeeping.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Phillip,

I am a strong advocate of wood shavings filled QB's (quilt box) and re-built all of my outer covers (OC) to incorporate 2" rigid foam insulation permanently into the (OC). Not only does the foam reduce heat loss in the winter but it also reduces hear gain in the summer. I have a few more screened vent holes in the QB than you (3 on long sides & 2 on short) and they are mid depth of the shavings. In addition I block up the OC on the front two corners with a piece of a yard stick (1/8 th. inch thick) to insure additional venting of moisture.









Note also the 2" thick R-10 rigid foam "winter jacket" in the picture.

Steve


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## tazke (Mar 23, 2015)

Some of you may be interested in this experiment:
Research solar still. It's basically a hole or container with moisture, dirty water, vegetation, etc. A container to catch liquid goes in the middle. Cover with plastic loosely and put a weight (rock) in the middle. Water condenses on the plastic, runs down and drips into the container. 

Place a screen top on, then a empty HB, place a dish in the center (not your wife's 8x8 cake pan, detracts from experiment) cover with plastic, recommend clear, place a weight in center so the plastic dips down over the dish.

Amazing how much water in the pan in 24hrs. 

Probably don't w want to do this in the winter.


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## Simpleton78 (Jun 24, 2014)

@enjambres. Would it be possible to post a picture of your quilt box setupu or could you direct me to a diagram of what you based them on. Thanks.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I will try to get some pics next week - I'm making a long list of other promised pictures, too. For the next 72 hours it will be too cold, but by Monday it should be warm enough to take some snaps.

I checked them an hour ago; sixteen degrees F, and calm, with my bees quiet, not even a hum to give them away. But I shined the flashlight up on the under surface of the open vent hole above the QBs. You could see shiny moisture glinting on the wooden edge as it exited the hive. All colonies alive and well, and generating enough heat to move that warmed vapor up and out.

Enj.


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## Mud Songs (Sep 30, 2010)

Each of my QB's are slightly different than the others. But they all essentially work the same. Most of them consist of a 4 inch rim with screen stapled to the bottom and screened holes on the sides. I fill that with wood shavings up the holes but not completely covering the holes, about 2 inches of loose wood shavings. I place a 2 or 3 inch rim with an upper entrance hole below it. Some of my QBs have a rim built into them instead.

This set up wicks moisture from the hive through the wood chips, insulates the hive, provides space above the top bars for dry sugar if needed, and gives the bees easy access for cleansing flights and extra ventilation through the top entrance hole.

Last year I experimented with keeping the QBs on in the summer. I kept them filled with wood shavings until the weather got hot. Then I removed the wood shavings when it seemed the hives could use the extra ventilation. It seemed to work well.


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