# An Unbiased assesment of the health of my hives



## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

*Embarrased*

was i, reading this.

Was curious about what this meant, so i peeked.

Glad i did, but wish i hadn't.

-j


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

jim b said:


> Glad i did, but wish i hadn't.
> 
> -j


Why?

Keith


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## Sherpa1 (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael,
Those certificates almost look real. If you had just not misspelled GOING.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

OK, so it was April, and there were zero varroa detected...

This seems strange, given that even the most varroa-resistant 
stocks tend to have SOME varroa, the trick being that the varroa
population does not "ramp up" and get out of hand.

So are these hives varroa resistant, or merely isolated enough
that there simply are no varroa to infest the yard?

Not trying to start any sort of long, drawn-out argument here,
just saying that "zero" says nothing about the ability of the
bees to deal with varroa when they are exposed.

What are your varroa counts over the season, Mike?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>This seems strange, given that even the most varroa-resistant
stocks tend to have SOME varroa, the trick being that the varroa
population does not "ramp up" and get out of hand.

There are always a few Varroa as the year progresses.

>So are these hives varroa resistant, or merely isolated enough
that there simply are no varroa to infest the yard?

My hives have had Varroa since the late 90's. There are Varroa. Just not detectable in April.

>Not trying to start any sort of long, drawn-out argument here,
just saying that "zero" says nothing about the ability of the
bees to deal with varroa when they are exposed.

They are exposed.

>What are your varroa counts over the season, Mike?

So small I've stopped counting. I pull a tray under the SBB out and it's hard to find more than a few when the tray hasn't been out for a month.

>Those certificates almost look real. If you had just not misspelled GOING.

I have a spell checker. If I were going to make fake ones, there are several anomalies I would not have done.. I seem to be the only person in the state being inspected. There is no regular inspection and they only inspect if you:

1) are going to sell bees where an inspection is required (not Nebraska or any of the surrounding states anymore)
2) pay them $150 to come and do the inspection.

My guess is there isn't really a template for the certificate, someone just types it into a document and prints it. Apparently without spell checking it.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

>> What are your varroa counts over the season, Mike?

> So small I've stopped counting.

That's a nonsense answer. How do you know that the number
is "small" if you have stopped counting?

Either you count, or you don't count.

And if you don't count,what you say about varroa levels doesn't count either!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>That's a nonsense answer. How do you know that the number
is "small" if you have stopped counting?

I pull the tray (as I already explained) about once a month or so and look for mites. I don't bother to actually count the few there are, but it's not very many. When the numbers fell to very small numbers I stopped counting. There is no point in me monitoring something that is no longer a problem.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Hubris can be fatal.

But if you are at least glancing, you are doing a count of sorts
I guess.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Are these some of the feral stock or are some regressed from "regular" bees?

(Hey, ya can't go wrong with an inspector named "Buzz")


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Are these some of the feral stock or are some regressed from "regular" bees?

Now they are all feral stock. At one time they were commercial Carniolans and Italians and Russians.

>(Hey, ya can't go wrong with an inspector named "Buzz")

I thought that was interesting as well. 

>Hubris can be fatal.

There are drone pupae that get torn open now and then from the burr between the boxes (PermaComb), and I get inspected every spring and I pull the trays and look. From previous counting, I can estimate a hundred mites quite easily and have never seen that many on the tray after a month or more. 

I can't see spending energy on something that isn't a problem.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

In April (at least in my area) nearly all Varroa are in capped brood cells. I see virtually no sign of mites on bottom boards or otherwise that time of year. Yet the populations greatly increase throughout the rest of the season. I would expect that type of a report at least for varroa in April in many similar climate type locations.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Just so I've got this straight...

Twelve hives inspected in '04, 12 in '05, 15 in '06, and 26 this year. No Varroa detected in any of the inspections. I'm assuming that the 12 from '04 are part of the 26 this year.

If this is the case, it would seem irrelevant what the actual mite count is, or whether the count was in April or August. A dozen hives that have been increased to 26, are healthy, and are into their 4th year without crashing would indicate that _*something*_ is working well. 

Have you lost any colonies due to Varroa (or anything else) in the past 3 years? Also, are you getting feedback from those who have purchased queens/nucs/colonies from you in the last 3 years as to how their colonies are faring?


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

coyote said:


> Just so I've got this straight...
> 
> Twelve hives inspected in '04, 12 in '05, 15 in '06, and 26 this year. No Varroa detected in any of the inspections. I'm assuming that the 12 from '04 are part of the 26 this year.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone is questioning the health of his colonies at all. But the fact that varroa shows up as ZERO at that time of the year doesn't really mean much in my view. That was the only point I was making.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Have you lost any colonies due to Varroa

No.

> (or anything else) in the past 3 years?

Lost quite a few this last winter to the sudden change from 50 F weather all the way to December followed by -17 for several weeks. The ones rearing brood did not fare well. It was classic "stuck on brood" starvation. I looked for mites among the dead bees and could not find but a few on each bottom board.

> Also, are you getting feedback from those who have purchased queens/nucs/colonies from you in the last 3 years as to how their colonies are faring?

I have had some positive feedback and no negative feedback.

>I don't think anyone is questioning the health of his colonies at all. But the fact that varroa shows up as ZERO at that time of the year doesn't really mean much in my view. That was the only point I was making.

And I agree with your point. It's my point that the population of varroa is NOT zero, as I will find a few varroa in the fall. But I (and the inspector) can, and do, uncap drone pupae and find none this time of year.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Dan Williamson said:


> I don't think anyone is questioning the health of his colonies at all. But the fact that varroa shows up as ZERO at that time of the year doesn't really mean much in my view. That was the only point I was making.



I don’t know why it would not mean that much.
In mature colonies, you should still be able to find varroa in the spring. When you have a qualified state inspector inspecting you hives ‘showing up as zero’ means a allot at any time of year. These guys are expert at finding them. When Dennis vanEngelsdorp (from Cornell, now PA State Apiarist, heading the CCD investigation) inspected my colonies he stated that ’he didn’t understand why he wasn’t seeing any mites’. Thru very detailed inspection we did manage to find a mite here and there in a couple of colonies. 

My queen permit states ’ "All colonies were successfully maintaining low levels of Varroa mites through the use of cultural controls"

In areas where varroa pressure is high, it may take several years for small cell to reduce varroa to near undetectable levels. This has been observed by myself and Dennis Murrel, each spring fewer and fewer varroa survive. The level that varroa start off in the spring has a big impact on population levels later in the fall. And when levels in the spring without using treatments reach the point of ‘undetectable’ as in Michael Bushes and my own case, this IMO is a great achievement worth noting. 

Joe Waggle
Derry, PA
“Bees Gone Wild Apiaries”
FeralBeeProject.com
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Hi Joe.

I went thru my mature overwintered colonies this spring and found ZERO mites in almost all of my colonies. I was checking sticky boards and uncapping some of the drone brood. I didn't uncap alot of drone brood as I needed them for queens I was rearing. 

That said, I KNOW there were mites in my hives. I've seen them since. I believe that in April (at least here) nearly all mites are in sealed brood. Queens are in a laying frenzy. There population of mites are much lower having come thru the winter without brood. Its time for them to get busy rearing young just like the bees.

I have done NO scientific study on this. This has just been my observation for the past 2 years. It has been difficult if not impossible in many of my hives in April to find mites. If I were to go thru and uncap alot of brood I would find some without a doubt. 

I don't think Michael would presume to believe he has ZERO mites in all of his hives at the time of inspection. They just FOUND ZERO. You can't go thru all of the brood/ drone cells looking for them.

It would be a more telling story for me to see an inspection in say August. 

The only point I am really trying to make with all of this is that there are new beekeepers that see ZERO on an inspection sheet and may wrongly assume that there are ZERO mites. In August that would be impressive to me. In April, I just don't find that to be a clear indication of mite levels or the colony's overall ability to handle them.. JMHO.

I am in no way trying to discredit Michaels inspection reports at all. I'm just trying to add some food for thought.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Hello Dan,

I understand what you were saying and,,,
Very good point! 
A inspection revealing no mites does not necessarily mean no mites. 

Especially at the time drone rearing starts, the few mites that survived winter would be highly attracted to these newly available cells, which inspection at this time might give an appearance of lesser mites still. 

Best Wishes,

Joe Waggle
Derry, PA
“Bees Gone Wild Apiaries”
FeralBeeProject.com
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Here is my "attack" on MrBEE and ALL other SC 'keepers:

I am a "numbers" guy  and ZERO is very hard for me to believe.

Many times (for years) in the past, I too, have asked for SC mite count numbers. No one has offered any, but always use the "same" excuse, "too low to count, dont have any, aint got time, etc.".

IF, if, one, two or so of you could just do a count ONCE A MONTH for 3 or 4 times, the results could be very informative. 

And yes, you can cheat the numbers or make them up , but just please give us some NUMBERS.


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## beaglady (Jun 15, 2004)

Ok, here are a few mite numbers from my small cell hives. In August 2005, the PA inspector came to check my 5 hives, which included mite counts via sugar roll. My worst hive had 24 mites, the best only one mite. Out of these hives, 2 were second year hives, 2 started in April from nucs, and the most infested was a swarm caught in an area near a beekeeper with a mite problem.

But I do confess that I don't really bother to count mites now. In early spring, I had sticky boards left on for about a month & had only a few mites (less than a dozen) on each board. If I seem mites in drone brood within the next few weeks, I'll knock them down w/ powdered sugar.


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