# American Foulbrood outbreak in my 2 day old hive



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

That sucks did they ship it to you or did you get a chance to inspect it prior? If they shipped it I would ask for a refund


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Either way that isn't right. Did it have a health certificate?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Refund and replacement due. Who did you get it from?


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

No it was closed up with plastic wrap when i picked it up i was in FL for work and was in a hurrry so i didnt open it


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

It was purchased from Hives and More in Jacksonville FL. I cant get in touch with them, my state inspector says he'll be reporting this incident.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How did you transport it? In the trunk of your car? Was it dead when you got it home?


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

I transpored it in the cab of my truck, the hive has a screen bottom and had plent of air flow, it was a 10 hr ride though


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So where was the plastic wrap? How did you come onto Hives and More in Jacksonville? Are they not answering the phone? Is that what you mean by "can't get in touch with them"?


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

The palstic wrap was around the hive body holding the top cover on the screen was open on the botton and the entrance was blocked with plastic.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I see. Well, I hope you get something out of this other than the education you already have. Find some local bees.


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

Catch a swarm or do a cut out


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Rcard86 said:


> It was purchased from Hives and *More* in Jacksonville FL.


How fitting.
Sorry to hear about your misfortune. Check with your local inspector and find out who sells nucs in your area. Maybe he can recommend a local reputable beekeeper who can hook you up with a nuc.


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## dphillipm (Mar 27, 2013)

This is a true story that was told to me last night. The family was dirt poor. she had built her bees up to the point that she was starting to show a profit. The state inspector had just retard, and a young inspector replaced him. On the first inspection from this young man who was straight out of college, he thought he was seeing American foulbrood in her hives. He did the tooth pick test, and made her burn all of her bees,and equipment. She was smart enough that she sent samples off to Auburn University. She didn't have foulbrood, and no bees, or equipment.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Rcard86 said:


> It was purchased from Hives and More in Jacksonville FL. I cant get in touch with them


Here is their website, and this link is the "Customer Testimonials" page:

http://www.hivesandmore.com/testimonials

Note the phone number for "24/7 Customer Service", (555) 555-0123. Even without calling it, it is obviously fake!  All 555 area code numbers are reserved for phone company use!

It is possible that Hives and More used a pre-made website template and didn't change the ad/number shown, but that example is repeated on other pages also. It look like they spent about as much time preparing their website as they did ensuring they were selling healthy bees.

:ws:


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Um, not so fast.

I'm always a bit leery when the claims start flying without an opportunity for the supplier to state his side of the story, or before he has had an opportunity to set things right.

I've taken the liberty of sending the company a link to this thread, which might need to be in Consumer Reports.



> Hives and More.com
> 1145 Sheffield Rd
> St Johns, FL 32259
> 904 586 8687 / 866 399 0347
> ...


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I would want to 100% confirm the foulbrood first, AFB and EFB can be easily confused... I know my inspector has whined about it a dozen times, and no sample has ever been bad......


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

The bad part is my inspector says even if it were european foul foulbrood it was on 5 frames and i had to destroy the hive, he took one frame and about 200 bees with him to be sent to the lab and we'll know for sure next week


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## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

It was my understanding the only hive that needed to be destroyed was AFB. I think EFB can be treated. Of course, state laws may vary.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rcard86 said:


> The bad part is my inspector says even if it were european foul foulbrood it was on 5 frames and i had to destroy the hive, he took one frame and about 200 bees with him to be sent to the lab and we'll know for sure next week


So the Field Diagnosis is AFB, but the Inspector isn't positive?


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## flbee (Jan 13, 2011)

I called and left a message, you were having problems, not sure if they are working today, but they are good people and I would think, they would like a chance to help.My call went to a answering machine, but they should call you back.


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## wassmerk (Apr 27, 2013)

Rcard86 said:


> Hello beesource mermbers, im a newbie from Prince George Va. I imported a Nuc from Flordia and unfortunatley it had a foulbrood outbreak and the state apiarist came to visit today and had me destroy the colony. Im really bummed out about it but maybe ill be able to find bees next year and try again:scratch:


Hi, I spoke with you yesterday and today from HivesandMore about the bee issue. When I asked you the following questions. Did you notice any nasty smells during the inspections, what tests he performed. Your response was you did not notice any nasty smells, you stated he used a tooth pick and is came out as brown lump. I ask if you noticed if is was stringy like chew gum being stretch. You said no. I asked which foul brood did your inspector said it was. You stated he did not state which foul brood. You also said it would take five days for him to get his test results back. I asked if he did a holst milk test. You said no. We offered to refund your money when you send us a letter from your bee inspector, stating he order you to destroy the bees. You said he was going to call our state inspectors, we have not heard from our bee inspector. I did however, after speaking to you. I called and requested our inspector to come to very the claims made against us. We are inspected yearly and before you pick up the bee to transport 12 hours, I confirmed there was a queen and it was a healthy hive before the hive was sealed up for you. I did not see or smell any signs of either type of foul brood.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wassmerk,
There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I'm wondering if this wasn't a case of the brood getting cooked while in transport. Dead brood, not AFB.

Can you explain how you prepare a nuc for beekeeper transport? Rcard86 described the nuc being shrink wrapped. How is tghe shrink wrap used. What is the nuc box like?


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## wassmerk (Apr 27, 2013)

We use strips of plasticell to cover up the entrance of the hive and 4 staples to hold it in place. It wrap around the base covering the two inch plasticell over entrance. It was wrap around the center of hive from top to bottom to hold the hive cover in place. The shrink wraps only 4" wide. The hive was a ten frame hive with telescoping hive cover and screen bottom board. We did not shrink wrap the entire hive. We also do nuc the same if they are being transport long distance. I was not present at time he pick up his bees. If he had placed them on the seat instead the bed truck that could cause the screen bottom board to have a ventilation problem.


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## wassmerk (Apr 27, 2013)

Also, all our nuc box have screen bottom boards.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do you think that during a ten hour drive, on the seat of someones vehicle, the brood might overheat?


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## wassmerk (Apr 27, 2013)

Yes, it could if seat is contour which could block the air flow. I do not know if he stop for a long period of time during his travel. I do not know if with the window up or down, or a/c not.


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

a/c was on i have a metal platform on my floor and the hive had a few inches of air gap, (again we have a field diagnosis, no offical conformation!!!!!!!!!) The hive was packaged perfectley i think i just have an inspector who is over reacting, and i am pi**ed he made me kill the bees. AGAIN THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK ON ANYONE i WOULD ALSO LIKE TO ADD THAT THE STAFF AT HIVES AND MORE IS VERY KNOWLEGABLE AND EXTREMELY HELPFUL!!!


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## wassmerk (Apr 27, 2013)

Rcard86 said:


> a/c was on i have a metal platform on my floor and the hive had a few inches of air gap, (again we have a field diagnosis, no offical conformation!!!!!!!!!) The hive was packaged perfectley i think i just have an inspector who is over reacting, and i am pi**ed he made me kill the bees. AGAIN THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK ON ANYONE


This not attack on you. Unfortunately when a person read AFB it can ruin a company/bee supplier. I had to provide a bit from hives and more to show we are working with on this problem and we are concerned. Hence, why I called our inspector because we are a responsible business and this is a serious matter that concerns all beekeepers.


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

wassmerk said:


> This not attack on you. Unfortunately when a person read AFB it can ruin a company/bee supplier. I had to provide a bit from hives and more to show we are working with on this problem and we are concerned. Hence, why I called our inspector because we are a responsible business and this is a serious matter that concerns all beekeepers.



Id also like to add i am a novice beekeeper with no experience and am simply re-stating what i was i told!!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

In NY, when an Appiary Inspector field diagnoses AFB the hive is quarantined until Lab Verification is obtained. I guess they do things differently in VA. Too bad.


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

Im really bummed out i have a strange hunch the test will be negative


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

In your first Post you state that the State Apiarist checked the hive and told you to destroy it. Are you sure it wasn't one of VA's Apiary Inspectors? There is a difference. Any idea how much experience the person has had?

How did you go about getting rid of the hive?


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

Hes the state apiarist


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

Rcard86 said:


> a/c was on i have a metal platform on my floor and the hive had a few inches of air gap, (again we have a field diagnosis, no offical conformation!!!!!!!!!) The hive was packaged perfectley i think i just have an inspector who is over reacting, and i am pi**ed he made me kill the bees. AGAIN THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK ON ANYONE i WOULD ALSO LIKE TO ADD THAT THE STAFF AT HIVES AND MORE IS VERY KNOWLEGABLE AND EXTREMELY HELPFUL!!!


Sorry for your loss.

PA's dept of agriculture has an apiary program and part of my bi-annual $10 fee that covers every one of my hives includes inspections on request from me or the state. I've had two inspections. The first inspection provided a valuable but painful lesson on varroa mites. Their contribution makes them my first call if anything is suspect.

On those two inspections here in SE PA, one of my hives was tagged for potential issues. The first by a seasoned inspector and the second by a recent biology grad. Both began with the toothpick. They tagged the suspect hive and took a sample of bees. Beyond that, I don't recall. A bit later, maybe a week or two, a letter showed up confirming lab results and giving me a clean bill of health.

As I read your plight, two thoughts came. Each hive isn't inspected every day. I can't see the need to immediately put down a colony on a field test since lab test always follow. The second thought is VA might want to visit PA.

Today is April 27 and IMHO not too late to make a go. Swarm season may be in full swing in your area. I suggest going to the next local club meeting and listen quietly to the radar for a keeper who may have abundance. Strike up a conversation long enough to get them on the soap box and immediately hunker down with great attention. When their feathers are good and fluffy, explain your plight. I suspect you'll get a line on one of their or their friend's splits, nuc or swarm capture before you make it home.

As far as your difficulty, wait for the dust to settle and see where the chips fall. Then blast the culprit directly in writing and make sure their superiors and anyone else who cares gets a copy. We're still struggling with CCD and every colony counts.

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

I think its great that a apiary like Hives & More would take the time to address a question like this and on a public forum!! Outstanding! I wish more apiaries were more customer service oriented. It seems like not returning messages or emails is the norm.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

AFB and EFB display very different symptoms. It should not be so easy to confuse one for the other, and an inspector should know enough to send samplease to Beltsville. Was the affected brood capped or open?

Without seeing the much it is hard to have an opinion, but perhaps the 10 hour ride chilled/dehydrated some of the brood, giving the impression of a brood disease.

Deknow


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

deknow said:


> AFB and EFB display very different symptoms. It should not be so easy to confuse one for the other, and an inspector should know enough to send samplease to Beltsville. Was the affected brood capped or open?
> 
> Without seeing the much it is hard to have an opinion, but perhaps the 10 hour ride chilled/dehydrated some of the brood, giving the impression of a brood disease.
> 
> Deknow


Deknow thats exactley my point!!! They went from sunny florida to 50 degree va in ten hours, idk about the bees but i was sure ready to head back to Florida hahahaha


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## jwhatman (Nov 26, 2012)

I received my bees from hives and more and they have been doing great! I got mine in march. The first time I went to pick them up the weather was horrible. They didn't want to disturb the bees for fear of too much stress on them and the fear of stings to the customer. The people of hives and more are very concerned about the health and well being of their bees. As I was picking up my bees they were explaining what I should look for,their propr care etc. a few of the expert keepers even gave me their phone number in case I have any questions or problems. I registered my bees before I even got them. Florida's state inspector called me and stated he will schedule an inspection next year. They don't inspect new hives because they aren't established yet and could be stressed and show false signs of disease. Just my opinion of hives and more.


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

Bingo , i think my inspector is over reacting


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

The question is did you destroy them? and if hes wrong what recourse do you have??


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

I've been to H&M this year. Seems like a pretty legit place. They have a small shop and offer Bee classes from time to time. Their supplies seem to be quality made, they make some of the stuff on site. I wouldn't say H&M is a shady place or people to deal with. 

I can understand the OP being upset and even pissed. It probably would have been best to wait for results of the tests before posting but now I am curious what happens next. I hope you will post the results of the tests. If it is the inspectors screw up I really would like to know how or what they plan to do to make it right or can the simply just get out of it? 

But to the point, I hope someone will help you out that lives closer to you.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

On the flip side...

"When the colony becomes weak from AFB infection, robber bees may enter and take contaminated honey back to their hives thereby spreading the disease to other colonies and apiaries. Beekeepers also may spread disease by moving equipment (frames or supers) from contaminated hives to healthy ones." (Wiki)

I'm just saying...

Plus just like the OP, no one would want to be sold AFB infected Bees and we sure don't want it to spread to other areas of the state or country.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Beekeeper transfer of infected equipment is the way most AFB is spread to other colonies and apiaries.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

wassmerk said:


> I did however, after speaking to you. I called and requested our inspector to come to very the claims made against us.


Did you get the inspector out, test done? Curious to know your side/outcome of these tests. Thanks


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Inspectors don't usually check each and every hive or nuc. So having a State Apiary Inspector look into ones' hives is only so good. The own/producer has to know what to look for and how to identify disease. Only the producer will be looking at each and every frame going into a nuc or hive. The buyer aught to do an inspection themselves when possible. Especially when transporting to a location far away from the producer. It's not likely that our OPer is going to take the hive back to FL and demand a refund, if he still had the hive. Which I don't think he does.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Inspectors don't usually check each and every hive or nuc. So having a State Apiary Inspector look into ones' hives is only so good. The own/producer has to know what to look for and how to identify disease. Only the producer will be looking at each and every frame going into a nuc or hive.




Having said that, either way, I'm still curious what Hives and More findings/tests (Personal or State of Florida) turned out to be. There should be some result, good or bad... (Not just from the State of Virginia as the OP stated earlier they have done with his hive). I'm not taking it out on H&M if they indeed have AFB, crap happens. If H&M does have AFB I am 100% positive they will take care of the situation. However living *SOMEWHAT* close to them it does concern me a bit although I probably have nothing to worry about* IF *they actually do have AFB?


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

I hear Crickets.  I think I got my answer.


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

trance, i pm'ed you the test results!!!!


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Why Pm? there are dozens wondering whats going on? you posted a problem and have answered no questions.... I asked a week ago if you actually destroyed them or just quarantined.


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## btmurph (Aug 7, 2011)

gmcharlie said:


> Why Pm? there are dozens wondering whats going on? you posted a problem and have answered no questions.... I asked a week ago if you actually destroyed them or just quarantined.


here here!


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

The hive is destroyed and my money was refunded


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...and the test results?


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

Positive on two test


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

so the inspector is vindicated.


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

Yupp


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

Yikes. Not the result I was hoping for.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

Glad they refunded you. I can't imagine you were the only one sold Bees so I wonder...:scratch:


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

The hive beside mine was the only other one that tested positive


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Probably made from the same parent hive.


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