# Just how dangerous is Apivar?



## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

Over many Years, it's been used as a mitacide "dip" in dogs. Still available but there are more effective treatment (neonics, like frontline) not without side effects but considered short term. When we dip a dog, we don't rinse it off it even towel it. Just left it dry onto them. No label warning about not letting the dog sleep with you either.....also Amitraz flea collars available with slow release like the strips. I've not compared dosing but, again, no warning about not petting your dog while it wears one. Again, we dont use them because there are better products out there. My point is, amitraz is not just in bees.


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Amitraz (active ingredient) has been used as a pesticide for many years and although there have been some deaths, the dose you get by handeling the strip without gloves are really small compared to the one taken up by the farmers. I would not worry. 

I would be more worried about your bees. In addition to actually being a insecticide, armitraz has synergistic effects with many other pesticides making them alot more toxic to your bees. Im not telling you that you should do this or that, but when there are other options, I would use those.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why the "possibly fatal" warning when all the hype is about how safe this stuff is?

Because it can be fatal...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

B Steve B, I use my hive tool to open the packages. Scissors aren't necessary.


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## Sickdog5 (Jun 8, 2016)

you could just not treat and then you and your bees have nothing to worry about


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Kind of passive aggressive there, Sickdog5.


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## Sickdog5 (Jun 8, 2016)

Just saying how did bees ever survive without us? They were probably a lot better off. I haven't treated mine yet and not sure yet if i am going to. I have been only doing this for about 6months now.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Before 1988, in America, honeybees didn't have Varroa mites. Varroa mites are the major problem that most beekeepers face today. That and the viruses that varroa mites vector.

Had no one ever kept bees then bees may well have been better off. But people do keep bees. So what are we to do? Nothing?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Hey Sickdog5, hows the Dodo doing without our help? But keep up the good work guys like you keep me in business selling bees.
Johno


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

Sickdog5 said:


> you could just not treat and then you and your bees have nothing to worry about


except for varroa destructor et al.


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## sarahsbees (Apr 20, 2016)

I'll say a comment similar to twgun's, that I looked up the ingredient and it was the same thing that is in flea collars on dogs. And those are things we leave around a dog's neck for months and they don't have any side effects. My research (i.e. random googling) says that it's harmful to some insects (but not bees!) but pretty much harmless to mammals and that's one of the perks of using it.

As far as the extensive caution notices -- basically that's just legal stuff to prevent lawsuits from the teensy tiny percentage of times it might cause a reaction. Sorta like how even on something simple like Advil half the label is taken up by warning labels and "consult your physician before taking any new drug" and a list of side effects a mile long that *might* occur but usually never do.

Side note if you do decide on something else: One of the reasons I chose Apivar over other treatment methods is that it was less dependent on temperature while other methods either didn't work if it was too cold or were straight up dangerous if it was too hot (I'm in FL, so that's an issue.) So idk what the temperature is like in Idaho but if you're looking for alternate options that's something to factor in to your considerations.


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## sarahsbees (Apr 20, 2016)

Sickdog5 said:


> Just saying how did bees ever survive without us? They were probably a lot better off. I haven't treated mine yet and not sure yet if i am going to. I have been only doing this for about 6months now.


One of the ways I heard it described was this. Make your hand into a fist. Then put it anywhere on your body. That's how big a varroa mite is to a bee. And it's sucking your bee's blood and crawling into larvae and weakening baby bees so they can't survive. So even without the "it might kill your hive" factor, there's still the compassion towards knowing that something horrible like that is happening to an animal you care about.

As someone commented, the reason varroa mites weren't a problem before is that varroa mites didn't exist in the numbers they do before. It's not that wild bees had defense mechanisms against them or weren't bothered by them -- it's that they weren't a factor at all until recently! For example, the other day I checked out a 'wild' hive in a tree trunk and when I started removing comb I found out that it was completely infested with hive beetle larvae (I ended up throwing that comb away, of course). I'm not sure how many studies have been done on 'wild' hives and their pests, but I'm willing to bet they have as much or more problems as 'tame' hives.

The other thing (speaking of tame hives) is that the more gentle the bee's disposition, often times the less pro-active it is against pest control. That's why some beekeepers aren't so convinced that africanized bees are all bad -- they do have less pests than bees bred to be gentle.

One way to think about all that is that humans caused the varroa problem through keeping/importing bees and breeding bees that are less likely to be defensive towards pests and regardless of if that's good or bad we now have a responsibility to give the bees a hand in fighting it.

If you are against treating with "chemicals" (I have that in quotation marks because everything's a chemical really so it's a bit of a loaded word with me) there's an entire forum of treatment free methods. Now understand that even with that group of folks it's not recommended you don't use any sort of control for pests, just that you find ways to control them that don't involve manufactured substances. So even if you're wary of commercial products, it's still important and possible to monitor your mite count and take action if needed.


Ok, sorry to hijack this thread a tiny bit, I just felt there were some misconceptions in the air that I wanted to take the opportunity to discuss. So back to the original comments, long story short please don't as suggested use "nothing" as an alternative to Apivar if you decide to steer clear of it.


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## Sickdog5 (Jun 8, 2016)

johno said:


> Hey Sickdog5, hows the Dodo doing without our help? But keep up the good work guys like you keep me in business selling bees.
> Johno


never bought bees nor will i. Love all the hate for TF kind of funny if you ask me.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

Sickdog5 said:


> never bought bees nor will i. Love all the hate for TF kind of funny if you ask me.


 It's not hate...lets try to be gentle with each other. We've all had experiences (with and without bees) that shape our attitudes towards chemicals and antibiotics. 

I am a Veterinarinan. I know beyond a doubt that antibiotics & insecticides save lives and relieve suffering. HOWEVER, there is some stewardship and common sense that goes along with. Not everyone has that sense of stewardship and common sense, I get that. But there is happy mediums and that's were the majority lay - "reasonable". I strive for that, I think most of us do. 

An non-bee example story that has shaped my outlook on "treating"... We have a few organic dairy's in our practice area. I will not support organic dairy with my purchasing power in the grocery store as I have seen the most cruel neglect of a suffering animal in the name of organic. Simple infection that can be treated with life saving antibiotics, high fevers, extreme pain that can be alleviated with NSAIDS but instead the poor creature is treated with loosely dosed herbs, essential oils and allowed to linger and die over the course of weeks. Several organic dairies have an outlet and a plan to treat and sell those animals but many do not - it is not regulated. Those without indepth knowledge or a similar experience to myself would assume organic animals were treated better. Not always the case. 

I personally believe (and much of my belief is based on science and my post grad education) that the bees are healthier and happier (yes, insects happy) when treated for mites. People on this site need to stop judging those who treat or don't treat unless they know the intimate details of the operation. People on beesourse also need to stop judging others on whether they joined in 2016 or 2002, have 1 hive or 10,000. My kids behavior than a lot of peeps on this site.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

hey sickdog5, where is the hate, I am just stating a fact. most beginners starting off on a treatment free regimen will lose their bees, a large number of beginners who treat will lose their bees. it is a matter of getting experience. if you try to start at the top you can only go down. remember if you don't like the message beatying on the messenger will not help.
johno


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## thesecurityeagle (Jun 21, 2016)

I almost convinced myself. But I also had data, IPM boards. I was looking at my one hive this year as the seed to more hives in the coming years. I do love bees. They are fascinating. The data showed me that if I were to skip fall treatment, I could find myself unable to treat in the spring (we get a very early flow due to warmer temps of winter is not persistant) or unable to super up for the early flow. Most importantly, I want the hive to make it through winter. A dead out in December or January is not in my interest. Neither are the plagues that come along with elevating numbers of varroa. For me it was simple, give up on TF now so I can potentially leverage the investment from this year. Perhaps, as time marches forward a TF opportunity will present itself. Until that time, my livestock get treatments.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

twgun1 said:


> It's not hate...lets try to be gentle with each other. I personally believe (and much of my belief is based on science and my post grad education) that the bees are healthier and happier (yes, insects happy) when treated for mites. People on this site need to stop judging those who treat or don't treat unless they know the intimate details of the operation. People on beesourse also need to stop judging others on whether they joined in 2016 or 2002, have 1 hive or 10,000. My kids behavior than a lot of peeps on this site.


Dangerous enough to follow the directions and use it properly, one doesn't want to find themselves, or their bees in the small percentage of fatality. Healthier & happier:scratch:, Pass the popcorn please..


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## sarahsbees (Apr 20, 2016)

[deleted]


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

It doesn't cost much to be cautious in dealing with any chemical. After all water is a chemical and can drown you. I don't see too much reason to worry about apivar personally. If you need practice worrying, please continue.


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## B Steve B (Jun 4, 2015)

Well, that was interesting. 

Thanks to those of you who gave helpful replies. I think now I will be comfortable using this stuff as directed. 

A more natural treatment scheme is a goal of mine, but right now I have some mites to kill and little time to fool with it. BTW, I tried a more natural treatment previously (hopgaurd 2) and suspect, though I can't prove, that it may have been the cause of one hive going queenless this spring until I rescued it with eggs & brood from another colony. I'm way at the bottom of this learning curve, I admit. Just my second year and three hives, with no loss so far.....trying to keep it that way as much as possible.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I use the easy tear tab on the packages to open them.... I try to wear gloves when handling but it's 50/50.


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## ilikebs (Jan 3, 2013)

I keep around 100 hives. I have never treated with any chemicals and my hive losses each year are under 10%. Some of those losses can be attributed to small amount of bees (should of combined and didn't) and not enough honey store to get through winter. Should I treat?


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## kevindsingleton (Jun 6, 2014)

ilikebs said:


> Should I treat?


For what?


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## kevindsingleton (Jun 6, 2014)

sarahsbees said:


> One of the ways I heard it described was this. Make your hand into a fist. Then put it anywhere on your body. That's how big a varroa mite is to a bee. And it's sucking your bee's blood and crawling into larvae and weakening baby bees so they can't survive. So even without the "it might kill your hive" factor, there's still the compassion towards knowing that something horrible like that is happening to an animal you care about.


Can't help but wonder if, in some parallel universe, there aren't "keepers" desperately trying to improve the survival rates of their beloved Varroa mites. After all, it's simply a matter of perspective that determines which animals we love and care for, and which we mercilessly kill with poison, fire, and blunt force!


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Sickdog5 said:


> Just saying how did bees ever survive without us? They were probably a lot better off. I haven't treated mine yet and not sure yet if i am going to. I have been only doing this for about 6months now.


Good luck with that T F thing. You will be fine if there are no varroa mites near you. It's possible.
Wow 6 months a beek. Wow.

Good luck with that T F self-righteousness, too. You'll make friends with that, for sure.

I have hives that are 7 years T F. I'm not cheering for what you seem to think is the devil of beekeeping. You shouldn't either, in some areas you'll achieve 90% losses if T F.


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## Sickdog5 (Jun 8, 2016)

jadebees said:


> Good luck with that T F thing. You will be fine if there are no varroa mites near you. It's possible.
> Wow 6 months a beek. Wow.
> 
> Good luck with that T F self-righteousness, too. You'll make friends with that, for sure.


 Yea 6 months. I am sure you were new once. Who is being self-righteous. All i said was i am not sure if i am going to treat or not. If i don't treat what do you care?


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Treat or not?? Your mite bombs will take out how many other hives in the process of crashing? Some treatment free people succeed, the vast majority do not. The treatment free ideology has caused the demise of how many hives? Oh I love the comments made by others that have seen successful treatment free hives and describe them as dinks waiting to die.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Treating is failing and all they can do is blame people who aren't treating... why not admit it doesn't work?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush, how is your hive count these days? Had any ups and downs in colony count this past year or two?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> Treating is failing and all they can do is blame people who aren't treating... why not admit it doesn't work?


I hope those reading this statement realize just how ridiculous it is.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael Bush, how is your hive count these days? Had any ups and downs in colony count this past year or two?

Just the steady decline of negligence. No ups and downs. Beekeeping takes time and I haven't had time. If the propaganda on treating was right then all my bees were dead back in 2003. But they are not. Here are some of my "struggling" untreated colonies:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2016/BeesInTheAir.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2016/Bees1.jpg

And that's after they all swarmed the first week of May. That was a week later.
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2016/Swarm6.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2016/Swarm1.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2016/Swarm2.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2016/Swarm3.jpg

>I hope those reading this statement realize just how ridiculous it is.

If not treating is such a disaster then the statistics would show a several hundred fold difference, or at least a two or three fold difference between treating and not treating. Reality is, leaving everything else out of the equation, there is not very much difference at all and some years the non-treaters have higher survival rates and some years they have slightly less. Then to explain this, the treaters blame their losses on those not treating to explain why there is no really significant difference. I hope they realize how ridiculous it is for people to blame other people who don't buy their view of the world for the fact that their view of the world isn't working.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

I take the time and have such low losses that all I can say is "take the time".
The numbers. 
I've lost four from a start-up of two packages and about 20 cutouts or swarms. Built them up to around 48-ish at this time. I bought six hundred pounds of sugar last year in September and October. It sure paid off. There's more to keeping bees than just having them. 40# of pollen patties kicked off the spring. 

The ones I lost were the two packages, a TF top bar, and one I screwed up and made queenless for grafting at the exact wrong time. It got SHB'ed, absconded, then got robbed out.

Have TF neighbors and you'll never hear me blaming anyone for my losses unless a crop-duster hits and then I'll be screaming bloody murder.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> If not treating is such a disaster then the statistics would show a several hundred fold difference, or at least a two or three fold difference between treating and not treating. Reality is, leaving everything else out of the equation, there is not very much difference at all and some years the non-treaters have higher survival rates and some years they have slightly less. Then to explain this, the treaters blame their losses on those not treating to explain why there is no really significant difference. I hope they realize how ridiculous it is for people to blame other people who don't buy their view of the world for the fact that their view of the world isn't working.


I hope those reading your response realize how utterly ridiculous it is.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> Then to explain this, the treaters blame their losses on those not treating to explain why there is no really significant difference..


Some do blame the treatment itself:lookout:


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

Yet another thread hijacked into a polemical debate. One poor beekeeper asks a simple question about Apivar and now, this?!

I can't answer the OP because I haven't used Apivar (yet).


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

B Steve B said:


> So, I am treating with this product and following the label - but the warning has me scratching my head. I see instructive material with photos of leather gloved beekeepers supposedly applying Apivar, but the label say to use chemical proof gloves. It also says absorption through skin can be fatal. I used the chemical proof gloves and outerwear are in the wash. But I also handled scissors to open the package and the hive tool, as usual, with those same gloves on after handling the strips. Do I need to put on another pair of gloves to wash the tools? Why the "possibly fatal" warning when all the hype is about how safe this stuff is?


I wear Chem gloves to avoid the exposure. Handling the product all day for a week or more is a lot of exposure to me and my guys. 
Do not handle the product with bee gloves. Chem absorbes into the leather 

When they claim "safe" for the bees they mean there are no short term problems associated with the treatment. Long term implications are debatable, studdy has proven harmful, I feel short term needs are sometimes needed to buy time to find alternatives. And many are in the works


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## Planner (Apr 3, 2016)

You have raised a very good point that is often minimized by bee keepers. These chemicals including OA are very dangerous to your health. That is why it is so important to follow instructions. I am not a commercial bee keeper, and they have no economic choice and have to use whatever chemicals they need. As a hobby bee keeper I have decided my health is more important than my bees so I do not use any toxic chemicals. It won't be long before many beekeepers who didn't follow label instructions will start to have some very serious life threatening health problems. There are always comments about chemicals being used for other reasons but they are in different formulas and strengths and have different licensing and legal requirements. We each can make our own decisions but don't assume the label is incorrect.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>As a hobby bee keeper I have decided my health is more important than my bees<<

But if you follow all the safety procedures your health concerns should be satisfied


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Re-read the OP and one of the questions is about gloves. Missed that the first time. 
https://www.dadant.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2011/09/Apivar-Instructions-USA-2015.pdf

It's possible that the pictures in the apivar directions are showing a double-gloved person.
Could be wearing nitrile gloves under their regular leather ones. 
Have done that before when applying MAQ's.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you wear Nitrile gloves you don't need the other gloves and you won't get them contaminated either. Nitrile under leather gloves gets you contaminated leather gloves.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

[QUOTE=Yea 6 months. I am sure you were new once. Who is being self-righteous. All i said was i am not sure if i am going to treat or not. If i don't treat what do you care? 

I was told when the mites first arrived in my neighborhood that it would take 3 years for them to cause my bees to perish.

That turned out to be precisely correct. All of my hives would have been lost, as were the ferals, had I not treated what was left. Of this I have no doubt.

If you've been keeping bees for 6 months, all I can say is you have a lot to learn about bees and keeping them.

And again, if you keep bees where there are successful ferals, then maybe you can have success being treatment free. If there are no ferals, take that as a sign As MB has said, 'all beekeeping is local' and what works in one place may not work in another.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

B Steve B said:


> It also says absorption through skin can be fatal.


I guess if enough amitraz was absorbed through the skin it would be fatal.

For me I just finished putting apivar strips into 300 hives, didn't wear gloves, and don't have any kind of feeling of being unwell at all. Certainly no near death experience.

I would say the label warning it can be fatal is butt covering. If somebody does figure out a way to kill themselves with an apivar strip, the company can say, well, we warned you. And, in a big enough dose, amitraz would be fatal so the company have to say that.

Not recommending anyone else follow my no glove bad example, just saying not to get too freaked out over it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

OT, I agree
But on our farm we deal with a lot of Chem. If we snuffed off personal protection equipment eventually we would get sick. Same goes with our farm safety protocols. A little bit of planning and adherence to managing risk pays dividends down the road. 

OT, would you allow employees to handle Apivar without Chem gloves?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

No I wouldn't. Anyone who works for me complies with label requirements for any chemical. Other than the idiot factor, even my liability insurance is void if label requirements are not followed.

Somebody could come back 5 years later and say oh I got cancer it must be those apivar strips I touched with no gloves.

Butt covering.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Covering your butt or protecting people from themselves?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I like to think of it more so protecting people's health rather than managing liability.

I do speak from a different perspective in regards to how Big Environment is selling the "chemical is killing our bees" narrative. But that does not mean I don't respect the harm miss use of these chemicals can have. 
My father use to handle furadan without gloves and applied with an open air sprayer. He was careless to the fact that long term exposure to that chemical just about killed him. A buddy of mine use to spray for a living. Corporate conducted routene blood tests and pulled him off into disability because toxin levels in his blood were too high. He was too lazy to follow precautions when maintaining the machinery. His body has metabolized most of the toxins out and back to work... Using gloves ! Lol

I wear gloves keeping these examples in mind, just saying


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Agree with all that. In fact I am a qualified pest control technician which I had to do to get access to wasp control chemicals which are a major bee problem here I've also been involved in horticultural pest control and do treat chemicals with great respect.

Just, with apivar strips, if you want to kill yourself that would be one of the hardest ways to do it, out of all the stuff out there that is available. I know using a sprayer for some agricultural chemical in a field without proper PPE, would give you the potential for thousands of times the toxic dose of nasties that touching an apivar strip would.

Not saying guys shouldn't use ppe, just saying the OP need not be quite as paranoid as he seemed to be he ain't going to die. As has been mentioned your dog might wear an amitraz based flea collar which isn't much different to wearing an apivar strip.

EDIT - ppe ='s personal protection equipment, sorry. Since Apivar is non volatile the required ppe is as simple as a pair of nitrile gloves. Re scissors used etc, amitraz breaks down quickly it has a 1/2 life of just a few days once it is out of the strip.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

The OP asked a real simple question and after a pile of responses no one has actually given an answer that has any meaning. It is easy enough to look up apivar and find out what the active ingredient is and once you know that it is easy enough to look up its toxicity. The first thing you might run into is an MSDS for apivar. That MSDS lists the human toxicity as a zero on a scale of zero to four. That is a pretty good hint the stuff is not very toxic. Then if you go a bit farther and find a LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of exposed animals) you learn it has a toxicity in the range of about five to ten times that of table salt and about the same as oxalic acid all depending on which test species (mouse, rat, rabbit, etc) you decide best represents what the toxicity would be in humans.

As was pointed out earlier, no chemical is without toxicity. That includes chemicals we eat like table salt. If you eat a high enough dose they will all kill you. Most essential oils are a lot more toxic than table salt or apivar. Hopguard is often claimed to be safe because it is a natural product and as such the manufacturer is not required to do detailed toxicity testing. The claim on the Hopguard MSDS is it is "Relatively non toxic by dermal absorption or ingestion." A reasonable English translation of that is it is more toxic than a rating of zero on that scale of zero to four.

A reasonable person might also want to look up the toxicity of any number of pharma products used to treat humans. What they would find is most of them have an LD50 considerable higher than apivar. That is to say they are considerably more toxic than apivar.

I am a chemist and fairly fearful of chemical exposures. I handle amatraz strips with bare hands without fear. If I were handling a thousand strips a day for several days I would wear nitrile gloves without question. But, the truth is even then I would not likely run any significant risk at all with bare hands as long as I washed my hands before eating or using them to put gum in my mouth.

You also have to remember that toxicity is an individual thing. Some place there is likely some human who has some unique genetic or immunity issue such that some small dose of apivar that would be inconsequential to way over 99% of people could still cause that individual a problem. Just like a few people die from a single bee sting or from eating a single peanut while the rest of us suffer no ill effect at all from either. Look hard enough and you could probably find someone that would die from a propolis exposure while the rest of us get coated with the stuff daily without problem.

So, if the OP is concerned I would suggest he wears nitrile gloves and throws them in the trash after use. Also I would suggest he not lick the apivar strips for luck.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Definitely a difference between respecting chemical use and fearing it


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## B Steve B (Jun 4, 2015)

Thank you again, all who offered real information and experience! This has been an interesting read, and I am satisfied that I need not worry.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> Treating is failing and all they can do is blame people who aren't treating... why not admit it doesn't work?


Hogwash. Not failing for me.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Michael Bush, how is your hive count these days? Had any ups and downs in colony count this past year or two?
> 
> Just the steady decline of negligence. No ups and downs. Beekeeping takes time and I haven't had time.


Just what is that supposed to mean? You have ups and downs and dead colonies...but those losses are due to neglect and not Varroa? Your "Lazy Beekeeping" dogma comes to mind.


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## Planner (Apr 3, 2016)

Michael Bush said:


> >Why the "possibly fatal" warning when all the hype is about how safe this stuff is?
> 
> Because it can be fatal...


Michael is absolutely correct. Its amazing how some beekeepers just ignore the warnings. Someone should post the label for Apivar and also the label for Oxalic Acid. Common sense might suggest that a logical person might inquire what is more important, your health or the health of your bees. The bottom line is that these are very toxic chemicals and if you choose to treat then you should follow the instructions.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Just what is that supposed to mean? 

Every winter a few colonies die. Every summer a few swarm end up queenless. I have a full time job, family that includes 10 grandkids, four horses, two houses to maintain and an old house I'm still fixing up, not to mention speaking a lot of weekends etc. Beekeeping takes time which is in very short supply in recent years. It means that despite no treatments and almost total negligence, my annual losses are below the average for my state.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

kevindsingleton said:


> Can't help but wonder if, in some parallel universe, there aren't "keepers" desperately trying to improve the survival rates of their beloved Varroa mites. After all, it's simply a matter of perspective that determines which animals we love and care for, and which we mercilessly kill with poison, fire, and blunt force!


*We are that parallel universe!*

This is a world effort the entire planet is participating in this global event. Cost is no object! Millions if not billions are spent every year. All except one island/continent that doesn't want to play. They refuse to import any so they are just beekeepers. 

Decades of hard work and a regiment of hard chemicals to achieve this, we give the bees sub lethal doses of all kinds of chemicals and pesticides, some kill queens/bees/brood, at a minimum they all increase bee mortality and stress. It takes an increased amount of treatments to train these mites, which enabled them to become resistant to several pesticides so far.

We only kill the weak 96% and breeding the strongest 4% of the mites, we are training them not to reproduce on drone brood and to get back in the worker cells quickly. 

All of these chemicals and pesticides are hazardous to people but we must stay focused. And encourage all to use as much as possiable. As a byproduct we have all this contaminated honey and wax with trace amounts of chemicals and pesticides, we have to get rid of, so we sell it. We don't tell the consumer what's in it, it's of no concern just a few ppm. It's fine no one has ever got sick or at least can prove it.

The mites are responding very well for our efforts; pesticide resistant mites that are killing an ever increasing percentage of hives every year. 

We have the strongest and most resilient Varroa yet!!!

You thought we were raising bees? :doh:


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I wear nitrile gloves for everything while working the bees & sticky equipment, including handling Apivar. I've gotten complacent a couple times, lifted my veil and grabbed a crisp fall Organically grown Fuji apple off my tree and eaten half of it before I remembered I've handled a few strips. I'm still alive. Not the best thing to do, but I didn't worry about it. Kind of ruins the _organic_ aspect though, after all that work. inch:

I still consider _Gravity_ a bigger enemy than Apivar.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Apivar is safe but the legal team at their company took the safe road and have it labeled like it's radioactive. 

Nitrile gloves are great. VERY great. 
They make a huge difference and I mean really huge. (waving hands) 
I'd vote for nitrile gloves if I could. (they're great)


HOWEVER: 
Once your hands get a little sweaty and one of your gloves rips the palm out you're sort of stuck in limbo trying vainly to quickly slip another glove on. Found that baby powder helps but due to a report that baby powder causes cancer... lol 
Them nitrile gloves are great, just great.


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