# Shimming between hive bodies for mite control



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

it would be SOOOO much easier to put in a drone comb or foundationless frame wouldn't you think? FWIW many hear feel that culling brood comb for mite removal selects for mites that prefer/ able to reproduce in worker brood.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Seem like it would be simpler to just use a frame for intentional drone production if you are going to remove the drone brood anyway. You could use a foundationless frame, or a frame with oversize foundation such as this: http://www.betterbee.com/foundation/dc10-deep-drone-found-10pk.asp

Freeze the drone frame to kill everything in it and allow reuse of the comb.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

That seems like a fair point. I'm new to this area of the site. Is the consensus that brood breaks are more effective or is there another mite control method commonly utilized here?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I just let the bees handle it and the ones that don't I bust up and requeen from ones that do a better job of handling it. Busting them up does cause a brood break which will set back the mites.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"I'm curious if any others are using this technique or if there might be any negatives aspect of it aside from the wasted effort/resources to built the extra wax."

If you choose to go this route, you could place medium frames in a deep box instead of using a shim.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Or use Lauri's method with partial sheets of plastic foundation and let them build sacrificial drone brood at either end of the frame for several rounds.

Scraping the wild drone brood from between shimmed boxes causes a lot of disturbance and kills a lot of bees. Dedicated drone comb areas is a whole lot easier to manage. If you try scraping it off between frames of a booming hive in robbing season you will get tired of that real quick!


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

The drone foundation seems to make more sense... a lot less wax will be wasted if they can be frozen and reused. I'm working with all mediums, is anyone making medium drone foundation? I can trim it otherwise.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

bjorn said:


> The drone foundation seems to make more sense... a lot less wax will be wasted if they can be frozen and reused. I'm working with all mediums, is anyone making medium drone foundation? I can trim it otherwise.


 just put a foundationless frame in there on the 1 or 2 slot , unless it's a little bitty nuc they will draw drone comb.


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

I second what crofter (Frank) said.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

I assume this would need to be installed between drawn frames near the brood? I tried a foundation less frame this year and was amazed how quickly they drew it out. I didn't pay attention to see if it was drone comb though.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

bjorn said:


> I didn't pay attention to see if it was drone comb though.


Don't worry. It will be.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

If that's the case how does one go about going foundation less? Wouldn't it all end up drone comb? Not arguing, trying to learn.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"If that's the case how does one go about going foundation less? Wouldn't it all end up drone comb? Not arguing, trying to learn."

No, the bees will only use a certain amount for drone comb. How much depends on the time of year, breed of bee, location, and available space in the hive. Foundationless gives them a place for drone comb. This sometimes makes for less burr comb in my hives that have foundationless frames. There are a lot of competing considerations in deciding what to do about drone comb, including the short term and long term effect of drone comb on _varroa_ and queen mating.


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## Karen of NH (Jan 30, 2014)

Mann Lake, Kellybees sells medium drone comb frames


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Not sure about the freezing and having the bees clean out the capped drones; it is a lot of work for them and a lot (most in my case) just seem to get dropped off the doorstep and creates a stink plus draws ants and hornets. I have also uncapped and blown out or water sprayed out the larvae and pupae but that is messy too. Much easier to just cut the slab out and feed to the chickens or throw in the garden. The bees can redraw it about as quick as clean it out.

If drone culling is going to be your main mite control method you must be sure not to let the drones emerge or you will be raising mites! Dedicated drone zones so you know where they are and scheduled culling. Having drone cells _higgledy piggledy_ all over the hive makes the frames harder to manipulate.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

A capping scratcher can be use to fork the pupa out of the comb after freezing. I freeze, scrap capping with a wire brush, fork and use a hose, then put back in the hive for the bees to finish the job.

Harley; Researchers have tried to select varroa that preferred worker brood but they were unable to do so.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

I assume you mean doing this in the spring time right? Not much drone comb now....( you knew that sorry)...So what is your mite count today or what was your last mite count? Unless you have a great reason for going chemical free-uh, what are you doing NOW if you have a high mite count? Do you have hygenic genetics in yur bee stock? What exactly does going chemical free get you besides a dead out if you don't treat a problem if you have one? Do the drone comb breaks the cycle but you can do that a number of differnt ways......


bjorn said:


> I am trying to remain chemical free in my hives and recently spoke with another local beek who uses shims between hive bodies for mite control. He says the bees build a lot of drone comb in the shim area which he scrapes out during inspections as a means of mite control. I'm curious if any others are using this technique or if there might be any negatives aspect of it aside from the wasted effort/resources to built the extra wax.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bjorn said:


> That seems like a fair point. I'm new to this area of the site. Is the consensus that brood breaks are more effective or is there another mite control method commonly utilized here?


Comb built in a shim/rim is a mess to deal with when manipulating boxes. And what do you do with the comb you scrape off of top and bottom bars. Throwing it on the ground will stimulate robbing potential and attract wasps.

Not a good idea. Get another mentor.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

He doesn't throw it on the ground... he throws it in a bucket and burns it. He uses some drone comb as well. He has a hundred hives so he's trying different techniques.


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

I agree with Harley Craig. Cutting out all the extra comb the bees build between the bodies, with that shim on, really pisses them off, upsets them to no end. I know, because I made the stupid mistake of leaving a shim between hive bodies, made a HUGE mess making things right again.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

AR Beekeeper said:


> Harley; Researchers have tried to select varroa that preferred worker brood but they were unable to do so.


Wouldn't that mean that as long as there was open drone brood there would not be any mites in worker brood? I don't think its even a preference the way i understand it is they just search for open brood and more are able to reproduce in drone comb due to size and longer gestation time. Yet some can reproduce in worker brood so we know there is some window in mite gestation. Some people believe that if only the ones breeding successfully are coming from worker brood with the shorter window then there will be more that can breed in the shorter window. Which makes sense to me


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

The mites are preferentially attracted to drone cells....dejong did that work. It is often assumed that it is the larger amount of JGH (juvenile growth hormone) that attracts the mites.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

deknow said:


> The mites are preferentially attracted to drone cells....dejong did that work. It is often assumed that it is the larger amount of JGH (juvenile growth hormone) that attracts the mites.


So when you find mites in worker brood but not in drone brood those mites were just lazy? MOST verroa may prefer drone brood but I believe that simply stating varroa in general prefer it is a false claim otherwise every single drone cell would be filled with them before you found them in worker brood


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm not sure how I can state it more clearly and accurately as 'preferentially attracted'.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bjorn said:


> He doesn't throw it on the ground... he throws it in a bucket and burns it. He uses some drone comb as well. He has a hundred hives so he's trying different techniques.


Burns it?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> I'm not sure how I can state it more clearly and accurately as 'preferentially attracted'.


Drone brood is where Varroa show up in their original host. I don't know if they don't show up in the worker brood at all in Apis cerana (?) or dorsata (?), I forget which. But my recollection is that drone brood is where they propagate in their original host. And the theory is that there was some genetic alteration in the Varroa which made it switch over into the worker brood in Apis mellifera.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is one study regarding varroa preference for drone brood ...
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00890827/document


And the thumbnail summary from that study ...


> In colonies of A mellifera carnica infested with Varroa jacobsoni, the invasion of worker brood cells and drone brood cells by reproductive female mites was studied. In 68 choices between brood combs of both cell types, the infestation of mites per cell was, on average, 8.3 times higher in drone brood. This drone cell preference was not affected by the infestation level. It was more marked if drone brood was rare and it decreased towards the end of the drone rearing season.
> 
> https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00890827/document


Another one: https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00891251/document
... the drone cell preference ratio was not identical, but similar.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

crofter said:


> Not sure about the freezing and having the bees clean out the capped drones; it is a lot of work for them and a lot (most in my case) just seem to get dropped off the doorstep and creates a stink plus draws ants and hornets. I have also uncapped and blown out or water sprayed out the larvae and pupae but that is messy too. Much easier to just cut the slab out and feed to the chickens or throw in the garden. The bees can redraw it about as quick as clean it out.
> 
> If drone culling is going to be your main mite control method you must be sure not to let the drones emerge or you will be raising mites! Dedicated drone zones so you know where they are and scheduled culling. Having drone cells _higgledy piggledy_ all over the hive makes the frames harder to manipulate.


And if the bees don't get to it quickly, what then? Could it be that another can of worms is opened? I also question the wisdom of putting frames of dead capped brood back into the colony.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

There are some theories that an excess of bees of wax producing age is one of the elements leading to swarming; some people think that the wax is produced whether the bees use it or not, so building drone comb new each time it is cut out is not a waste. That seems questionable, but I know the bees can redraw and lay up a deep frame in about a week in early summer. 

I have pulled drone brood with the decapping tool but found it not so easy on fairly new foundationless drawn comb that is not well attached to the frames. I am going to try Lauri's partial frame plastic foundation method next season. I have some hives that I want the drones from for breeding and some I don't. This gives some control. 

The bees do put much less scattered drone brood cells between the frames if you give them some space on frames to use for drone cells.


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## mpdotson (Jan 6, 2016)

bjorn said:


> He doesn't throw it on the ground... he throws it in a bucket and burns it. He uses some drone comb as well. He has a hundred hives so he's trying different techniques.


Is there something wrong with putting the frozen comb into a Solar Wax Melter?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Here is a very good web site!
Please scroll down to the green frames and *the modified wooden frames*. 
I made some of the Varroa trap frames last season and they work.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-biotechnical-tactics-ii/

Dadant makes drone cell base foundation which will work in your medium frames. A 2-3" strip of drone cell base/ frame will work

Regards,
Ernie


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

Bjorn:

Drone frames are how I control mites. Here is some practical advice.

My colonies are 11 frame double deeps. Our last frost comes between mid March and mid April. Spring here is the time period between the next to last frost and the last frost <GGG>. Please adjust the dates for your locale. In early March install a drone frame in the third position from the walls in the bottom deep. Thats two frames total. A drone frame is a wooden frame with a 3/4" wide wax starter strip. In 14 days they will pull corner to corner, solid drone comb, lay it up and cap it. I plan to pull it and freeze it every 14 days for three rounds. That gives me a few more days to play with if it rains. On the third round I pull 100 drone larvae per frame before freezing and check for mites. If you can't make sure that the first drone frame of the year will be pulled before the 22nd day, don't use them. 

Take a cappings scratcher to the frozen frames and then squirt it with water. Home Depot sells a brass reducer that goes onto a garden hose. It reduces the water stream from standard hose width to less than a 1/4" opening. It puts out a powerful stream. This will blow the majority of the larvae out of the cells.

There are some who offer advice that all foundationless frames turn into drone comb. This is incorrect. In early spring the bees want drones so they build drone comb. After they get enough drone they will build worker comb.

One of the things I like is the drone frames isolates the drone cells to them and not scattered all over. When there is enough drones they will fill them with honey.

Other ways to make drone frames. Look at #5 by Riverderwent. Also Randy Oliver has a frame with a horizontal bar in the middle. The top half is honey comb and the bottom half is drone comb. He cuts the bottom half out each inspection.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

I am going to try drone comb this year!


ToeOfDog said:


> Bjorn:
> 
> Drone frames are how I control mites. Here is some practical advice.
> 
> ...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

ToeOfDog said:


> There are some who offer advice that all foundationless frames turn into drone comb. This is incorrect.


Most frames do.
I had colonies draw six or more drone frames this spring before finally reverting back to worker cells. Lovely composition for their second deep brood box... 60% drone comb.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

ToeOfDog said:


> Bjorn:
> Take a cappings scratcher to the frozen frames and then squirt it with water. Home Depot sells a brass reducer that goes onto a garden hose. It reduces the water stream from standard hose width to less than a 1/4" opening. It puts out a powerful stream. This will blow the majority of the larvae out of the cells.


Got an air compressor? Get an attachment that shoots air and you can use air to get pupae out of the cells after decapping. (it's pupae by the time cells are capped, not larvae. just sos yu'd know.) 

I know guys that do drone comb removal to "control" varroa mites. They take the frame of capped drone comb and, using a long bladed knife, they cut the cappings away like uncapping for honey extraction. And then they stand the combs up against the hives and let skunks or racoons eat the pupae. Or they tap most of the pupae out on top of a hive cover and stick the comb back inside the hive. I don't know if or how many of the varroa survive or not.


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