# Nuc management questions.



## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Do you object to dry sugar or a sugar brick? Considering your description of your rather Martian winter, and the fact that you have already fed in a frame of honey it may be good insurance. If the bees don't use it you can take it back off and make syrup out of it when it gets warmer.
Bill


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

congrats on getting 3/4 through winter so far! without pulling frames (and i wouldn't until it gets warmer) it's hard to tell about the cluster size. i agree that something like lauri's sugar blocks would be a good idea. you could remove the frames and use the empty boxes from #4 to house the sugar blocks.


----------



## Mr. Biggs (Jul 20, 2015)

> Considering your description of your rather Martian winter


This is really typical of winter in this location, I would expect more snow and days in the 70 (21 c) - 80 (27) with more snow and wind before the last frost date shows up.

I do have a couple of more frames of honey if I need to use them.

These double nucs have a #8 open mesh bottom on them and 2" (5cm) foam on the top. I did notice that the bees are in the currently warmest part of the box. They may have more below them.


On the sugar brick what would be the best practice:

Build a shim and lay on top? 

Make a brick out of an empty wooden frame and place it in the top box?

Perhaps 3 or 4 frames mixed with the honey reserve and add a new box?


Pollen sub?

Thinking this should be added at first flowers or bud swell on the trees, there still will be freazing weather after this point. 


I would rather not open them up till late april or may when they are ready to swarm, but understand they could have starved out by then or not built up as fast as they could with better management.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i've not used it, but here is a good way to provide feed for the remainder of your winter:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290641-My-recipe-method-for-sugar-blocks

it includes a sprinkling of protein mix. 

if you have another warm day i would consider exchanging your additional honey frames for any empty frames in the top boxes.

once it warms up and there is pollen and nectar available additional feeding won't be necessary.


----------



## Mr. Biggs (Jul 20, 2015)

Currently there is honey in all the top frames. the one I swapped out had about 8oz of capped honey left on it.


I wonder how often I should be checking on these reserves?



My concern with the additional feeding is the variation of weather I see and forage damage.

It would not be unexpected to have trees blume and 2 days later freeze and have 6" of snow on them for a week. 

A larger hive that has more resource may do ok, but I fear that the nucs might not fare well. MY intent is to allow continually build up until they are 40 or 50 medium frames strong. 

Last year in the early part of May we had some unusually wet weather. I witnessed the girls dragging large numbers of drones out to be slaughtered. I'm unaware if this was a hygienic behavior or not, but my thought at the time was they where getting rid of the dead weight because the resources in the area had stopped coming into the hive.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Mr. Biggs said:


> Currently there is honey in all the top frames. the one I swapped out had about 8oz of capped honey left on it.


i would say they are very good shape then. 



Mr. Biggs said:


> wonder how often I should be checking on these reserves?


i use a scale to weigh my hives about once a month through the winter. doing so gives me a very good idea as to how much honey has been used and how much remains. your honey being at the top makes it easy to take a quick peek from time to time on the warmer days.




Mr. Biggs said:


> concern with the additional feeding is the variation of weather I see and forage damage.
> 
> It would not be unexpected to have trees blume and 2 days later freeze and have 6" of snow on them for a week.
> 
> A larger hive that has more resource may do ok, but I fear that the nucs might not fare well.


having the sugar bricks on top of the nucs would provide some 'insurance' as david laferney puts it.



Mr. Biggs said:


> Last year in the early part of May we had some unusually wet weather. I witnessed the girls dragging large numbers of drones out to be slaughtered. I'm unaware if this was a hygienic behavior or not, but my thought at the time was they where getting rid of the dead weight because the resources in the area had stopped coming into the hive.


i see things like that from time to time, and usually chalk it up to 'the bees know best'.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

excellent job getting those bees through to this point with the setbacks you had and your climate. I overwinter nucs in 3 5 frame medium boxes (zone 6). Going into winter I like to see 20 lbs in my top box and will supplement if I have to. I also put a 1.5 feeding shim and put on a sugar brick late fall. On mild winter days I check the sugar bricks every couple months. 

If you want to check stores in early spring, just weigh the top box. Its fast and doesn't require pulling frames on those substandard days.


----------



## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Newspaper with misted sugar to get it to clump work well if your pressed for time. Sugar brick is fine if you have the time.



> How do my nucs look in regards to population?


I tend to have carniolan type bees these days. They tend to have grapefruit sized clusters that are scary small. Probably horrible type bees for any kind of pollination work. Come spring they explode. Can't always judge on apperances. If you don't mind feeding them in the winter then they are good looking bees that you have. If your of the leave alone type of beekeeper/ then I'd bee scared of them eating them selves to death. Then the ultra small cluster start to look good. With that said knowing your type of bee is important so you can manage them properly. If you have Russian, Italian, or carniolan bees you need to make allowances for each type of stock to winter them properly.


----------



## THALL (Apr 6, 2010)

Population looks good. I am located in the upper valley region of NH and VT, similar climate zone you are in with what sounds like less winds. In regards to setting up your nucs you have to figure out your main flows and work around getting your nucs set up in that time frame. 

With most of the combs in the top box full of honey I would say they have plenty of feed until the end of this month going into March. Once brood is being tended to you will see honey stores disappear rapidly. When this happens you need to feed and stay ahead of them until natural nectar sources are found. 

I have seen plenty of nucs with large populations in February dwindle down to just about nothing with a long drawn out winter come late March early April.


----------



## Mr. Biggs (Jul 20, 2015)

Thanks again for the help and information.



Clayton Huestis said:


> knowing your type of bee is important so you can manage them properly. If you have Russian, Italian, or carniolan bees you need to make allowances for each type of stock to winter them properly.


I'm unaware exactly but think they are a locally adapted Italian bee. 


It looks like I will need to add a scale to my beekeeping equipment this year based on the replies.


Last friday I saw temps in the mid to upper 60's (18+ c) it was calm, 10 - 15 mph (16- 24 kph) winds and sunny. The trees in the area are starting bud swell and I'm noticing some bark changes on some trees that show the approaching spring. Dandylions are starting to green and slowly grow. 


Today I received thundersnow!


Added to all 3 nucs. A 1 1/2" (3.8 cm) shim and 1 1/4" (3.2 cm) 2.5lb (1.13kg) sugar brick. I had rapped the lower part of the shim with duct tape to seal any draft as I don't think they would have time to glue it shut before the wind and cold would set in.










Nuc #1 looks to be Using honey rapidly I did not see any in the top of the frames. I don't know If it is because they don't share the hive with a second colony or if they are just less efficient with their use or perhaps they have started to brood already. They did keep brooding later in the year then the other 2. I would suspect that if I did not add the sugar brick they would starve out soon unless there are more stores underneath. I will check for new bees in 3 weeks. I'm thinking I may cull this queen later in the year. 2 and 3 are still fat with honey on the top. 

Numbers of bees coming out of one appeared to be more, they are on the left. They also look to be more active than the other colonies. 

Short video link.

http://vid150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/mrbiggs_photo/bee%20stuff/20160226_135110.mp4


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I just checked my nucs yesterday. Lost a good looking cluster. They were completely dry except for the sugar brick that was in contact with them and being used. Lots of the colonies were low. I redistributed resources from my deadouts but they weren't enough. I'm going to have to steal some resources from my big hives and bring them out in a couple of days. 

Is it possible that sugar bricks won't sustain them once they start raising brood?

I also discovered I had a couple of micro clusters (handful of bees) that aren't flying. I removed some frames from one assuming that they weren't raising brood. They weren't and had a queen. I think I'm going to bring them home and give them the foragers from my big hives using a snelgrove board and see if I can get them going. The nuc location is bringing in pollen yet, but my home location is just starting and have some healthy populations.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

lharder said:


> Is it possible that sugar bricks won't sustain them once they start raising brood?


Spring starve-out is common even in my temperate climate. I've had pollen since before Christmas, but small clusters never get ahead of the growth curve -- and bee condition declines. The bees consume their own body stores to feed and warm brood, and continue to weaken. Weak bees cannot forage well, so even as large clusters explode, the small clusters blink out. Brood == major protein demands, and major metabolic heat demands.

The rule: Go big or go home.

In early summer, a "one cup" mating nuc can raise brood and grow, in spring not-so-much.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I get that. I need to add bees to the equation to get the small clusters going. The debate in my head is am I risking the donor hives at this time of year. 

Because they are small clusters, they have lots of food. Its the nuc with the strong cluster that died suddenly without food in comb, but a sugar brick that they were in contact with that makes me think they weren't able to use it at the scale they needed.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

lharder said:


> The debate in my head is am I risking the donor hives at this time of year.
> .


*Yes, *you are. 
Saving dinks by robbing thrifty hives is false economy. 

You need a hard-earned base of experience to know how far to the edge you can push donor hives. You need luck in the weather, as a week of rainy weather can undo your calculations.

Everyone kills a bunch of colonies before they learn to thread that needle. That is a maturing and tempering experience for the beekeeper -- look forward to "earning" the experience.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I took off some unoccupied boxes of my home hives so I can give my nucs more resources. I had a chance to see how many frames of bees I had. I was shocked that one had 18 to 20 medium frames of bees occupying 3 boxes already. Another had 14 to 16, one had 8 and my laggard had 2. It was a laggard last spring as well. I think 3 are strong enough to subsidize another hive, so I will bring back 3 tiny cluster and put them above snelgrove boards and see if I can kickstart them. 

We have decent weather ahead so it may be OK. I'll let you know how it turns out.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

lharder>>
It's a lot harder to walk the walk than it is to talk the talk! 

Those are weak bees with questionable genetics -eliminate them before they spread their inferior genes throughout the region. :lpf:


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

The problem nucs are late season ones that are small through no fault of their own, maybe. I have no real issues with helping when they are dealt a poor hand circumstantially, or by my own error. There are tests, then there are fair tests. If I get them going they will be properly tested this winter.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

First day after transfer with the mini clusters above the snelgrove board. Opened the lids today to check on them after a day of relative chaos. First off, I found a dead queen on the bottom of a nuc box used to transport. Down to 2 of 3. Two of the mini clusters had accumulated about 2 frames of bees. One had minimal additions.


----------



## Mr. Biggs (Jul 20, 2015)

lharder said:


> Because they are small clusters, they have lots of food. Its the nuc with the strong cluster that died suddenly without food in comb





> laggard had 2. It was a laggard last spring as well.


Being inexperienced in keeping bees, others with more knowledge please correct if my thoughts are wrong on this.

Would it not have been better to combine the resources and bees of the small clusters with the one that had died, before they starved out? Would it not be a good idea to take the laggard hive and this combined hive and bust it into nucs and use larva/queen cells form the hives that are the best performers in this apiary later in the year under good flow? 

Would this not result in more bees and a stronger apiary over all?


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Fair questions

I think my error with the starved out cluster was thinking emergency sugar would carry them through. I never did get any feed back on possible starvation of a cluster in contact with a sugar brick so I have no firm conclusions. I had resources to give them, discovering its death when I was giving all the hives extra frames of food and space to build in. 

You are probably right on the small clusters. I'm trying to see what I can get away with in my location as I'm new at this. I did a bunch of combines near the end with some late mated queens. I also had some complications with moisture with my setup that made life more difficult for some of the late hives. I won't be doing mountain camp sugar again except for an emergency because of excessive wicking into the hives. I modified the set up to give more weather protection but it was too late for some hives. This year I have more resources, have learned a few things and expect to reach my nuc goals earlier (famous last words). 

The laggard actually came on later than the rest and was going strong late in the year. its timing was different. Its a 2nd year survivor, and that's the base of my selection pyramid. Its a Russian, small cluster in winter, conservative in its ways. When I have more choice, I will be moving up the pyramid and do as you suggest. Its not just survival I'm interested in.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

lharder said:


> First day after transfer with the mini clusters above the snelgrove board. Opened the lids today to check on them after a day of relative chaos. First off, I found a dead queen on the bottom of a nuc box used to transport. Down to 2 of 3. Two of the mini clusters had accumulated about 2 frames of bees. One had minimal additions.


Ok, I had my first hive inspection weather of the year today so went through my home yard which consisted of 4 overwintered 2nd year colonies, 3 of which had micro nucs over them in an effort to save their queens. I found all 7 queens (where did that dead one come from?) after a very short period of time. All of the 2nd year hives had open/capped brood. Stopped inspection after a couple of frames of brood were found. 

Micro nucs: One over my most robust hive attracted about 7 or 8 frames of bees. The queen looked beautiful, fat and was laying already. The other two attracted about 2 frames of bees and hadn't started laying yet but were undergoing preps. There was a bit of evidence of conflict with one of the hives. It looks like they killed the micro cluster but saved the queen. So far looks like a win. I should say that the weather has been beautiful to my benefit.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interesting report! thanks for sharing. sounds like you've got the makings at the homeyard for 7 colonies. do you have others at a different location?


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

The micro nucs will be going back to my nuc yard once they are built up a bit. I have some queens there that actually belong near my home yard as I want to raise some queens from them. At the nuc yard I went into winter with 26 supposedly queen right nucs, some thrown together at the last minute. They were arranged on pallets, on mike palmer style divided nuc boxes (except mediums) supered with medium 5 frame boxes. 8 nucs to a pallet, insulated as a group, bottom, sides and top. The side insulation wasn't substantial, really just a wind break. I had some water that infiltrated, and channeled into one or 2 hives in each group, which in combination of wicking from newspaper (mountain camp emergency sugar) did in a few nucs. The older nucs shrugged the water issues off, but the weaker late season ones were hit hard. I've since added a cover that sheds water off the whole group. 

So I am left with 18 nucs I believe including the micro nucs I brought home hoping to revive them. So far so good. The nucs left there are all well provisioned at this point including pollen patties. Will put in big boxes once pollen starts flowing there. Have another yard I will be putting in soon and some will be transferred there.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

that sounds really good lharder. i'm looking forward to following your progress.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Just a follow up. Had a peek in the hives today as I wanted to determine if the remaining 2 of 3 micro nucs had brood. They all had capped brood. So I have 3 for 3 success saving these micro nucs using a snelgrove board. I gave the 3 micro nucs part of a pollen patty above the wee clusters. However I should have given all the clusters some pollen patty. Divert forages who revert to nurse bees, leaving only nurse bees in the bottom boxes, especially in cool windy condtions? They all could have benefited from some extra protein when demanding extra from them. Other than that am happy with the outcome.


----------



## Mr. Biggs (Jul 20, 2015)

Glad to hear of your success.

March 5 had a couple of days of near or above 70f (21c). First pollen of the year Not sure what it is.
Anybody have any thought on what it might be? Have not seen anything blooming. There are no maples in the area that I'm aware of. 















I made a decision to change the equipment that nuc #1 was living into to this lightweight 6 wide 4 tall medium frame nuc. total with new wood frames with cutdown plastic frames for foundation and the top feeder is just under 30lb (13.6kg)






It will also work as a double 3 frame matting nuc.





On this day I got a decent look at this nuc, Stores nearly completely gone maybe a pound or two of honey. I believe this nuc would be dead if I had not intervened. The sugar block was being redistributed in the hive and some was falling on the ground through the screen. I added two heavy and wide medium frames of honey and about about 2.5 (1 kg) of pollen sub. I did not see queen or check the cluster of bees for brood, as I moved 3 of the frames and most of the bees in one move. There were a lot of robbers out and battling started as this once organized nuc was trying to find its new home and the smell of honey was in the air. Other bees in the area on the attack. They did not come from these nucs as they were larger and different colors. Entrance was reduced and all 3 nucs suffered losses.















Nuc #1 as left on the 5th.











Trees and flowers are starting to bloom in the area. Tonight and the next few days will be below freezing.
Did a quick check on nucs near evening #1 all sugar gone from top added about a 1lb block, honey looked good about 1/3 of pollen sub gone. #2 no noticeable usage did not get cover off long enough to check honey. #3 about half the sugar gone built comb in its place stuck the top to the frames. Did not check honey as I also didn't remove the cover all the way.


I think they may be brooding up at this time. The nucs had a different smell today. Would this be typical?


Currently I'm running 4 for 4 for wintering success. I believe my main hive is currently doing well coming out of its 2nd winter. I added 10 frames with waxed plastic to the top. I'm not sure what it all has in it. I'm afraid to check it with no drones flying, but I'm concerned it will be a swarm candidate if I don't time it right as I put it to winter larger then I think most people would. 

Will it be safe to leave this alone till I see drones flying or will it be to late by that time?


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I think even if its too cold to do a detailed frame examination, you can still pop boxes off in cool but not freezing conditions and see how frames are occupied by bees. Do it every so often and you can see if the colony is expanding or sitting there biding its time. Hefting each box will give you an idea of food stores. There may be unoccupied space with some food stores that you can checkerboard above an expanding hive. Chances are that at this time they are not gathering much nectar even if it is available. Not enough flying hours in the day. So adding foundation at this time may not be useful but perhaps detrimental if the hive isn't filling its space. 

But that's only my limited experience opinion. Perhaps more experienced keepers could give you better feed back.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Final verdict on the micro nuc recovery operation using a snelgrove board over strong hives. 2 of 3 made it and are now doing well. One raised a small batch of brood then went queenless. They didn't get enough bees at the beginning transfer. All donor hives are doing well. I would do it again.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

great report lharder and i appreciate the update. the snelgrove board appears to be a very good way to deal with microclusters coming out of winter

i'll be looking this weekend at the one tiny colony that i have been reporting about. it has received 3 to 4 deep frames worth of nurse bees shaken in over the past few weeks. it is up to a single 10 frame medium worth of bees and the queen is laying like a champ. 

i have 4 colonies that failed to expand up into the checkerboarded supers and now have their queen excluded to the bottom deep box. the plan is to put together one frame of capped brood with adhering nurse bees from each of these 4 colonies and and newspaper combine them with the small colony.

this a bit of an experiment for me, but if it works this hive should be up to production strength as we enter our main flow in a couple of weeks.


----------

