# Drumming a trap out



## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

I've received a call from a personal acquaintance about conducting a trap out on a house that the owner wants to sell come March; obviously members of this forum would be tickled if their new house came with bees but he's looking to sell to a broader audience. March in this area will only spike the highs into the 50s with the majority of the temps remaining in the 40s. I've refused to kill the hive but agreed to look into accelerating the time line of a trap out. Using the smelly chemicals and a cut out are not options; I also I want to use a hive to rob out the honey after the queen leaves the original space. I know you can move bees by light drumming on the side of an existing hive but I've never tried it. I'm curious if anyone has ever accelerated an "eviction."
I realize this isn't a good return on the investment in time and energy, etc, etc but ....... The house is empty so I believe I can determine the hive location with a stethoscope and rig something to lightly drum on a wall/floor without disturbing anyone. The house has been kept above freezing so the cluster shouldn't be too tight. I'm wondering if I can entice them to move when the outside temp reach the mid 40s if route them, with a one way exit, into a trap out hive (maybe adding a bit of supplemental heat) and drumming. Any thoughts?


----------



## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Light drumming? As in hitting on a wall and hoping they come out the entrance & exit? I will have to read up on this method  In my experience there is nothing accelerated about a trap out. By the time all of the bees are out (if & when that happens), and leaving the entrance/exit open for robbers (which is also at risk for a swarm moving in), one could have a cutout done, repaired, & sealed in two days. I would first locate where in the structure the hive is, and if it is easily accessible (i.e. behind sheetrock, ceiling, etc.). I would strongly recommend cutting them out, and being done with it. Particularly, if they are trying to sell. If not, I think you will find them pressuring & asking you what is taking so long because they want the house sold!


----------



## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Field,
Thanks for the feedback and I don't disagree with a lot of your points but cut out is not an option for more than one reason, so are stinky chemical.

Drumming on the outside of a hive will drive bees to exit or at least to move. Their exit from the house is routed, via a piece of PVC fitted with a one way exit, into the back/top of a modified deep. The theory is the colony, specifically the queen, will move away from the drumming, thru the PVC and into the deep. The original entrance/exit is essentually "moved/transferred" to the front of the deep. The problem is I've little experience with drumming and one way exits to accelerate an "eviction" when temps are marginal. I'm looking for anyone who has tried something similar or with an opinion/insight, i.e. a sanity check. 
Second phase would be to install a queen excluder and allow the workers back into the house to rob out the honey.

The down side of failure is oneone gives them a dose of Raid; yes, I've already expressed concerns with leaving dead bees, honey and comb inside a wall. You can provide folks with information but you can't make them think, rationally anyway.

FYI, trapping out via the one way exit into a modified box has been validated by Mr Wimpy Hogan's method.


----------



## Waggle (Mar 7, 2013)

There are products such as Bee Quick that are effective in chasing bees but do not smell offensive (at least to me) that could be used to flush the bees from a wall.


----------



## jredburn (Feb 25, 2012)

Eikel
I am in SW Florida where most of the houses are concrete block. This means that I do 2 to 4 trap-outs a month. I have never had any luck with pounding on a wall to get the bees to move. A few will come out and try their best to get you to quit is about all that happens.
If you can pump smoke deep into the hive for two hours +/- the queen will eventually come out and everyone else will follow. This will leave brood, bee food and honey inside the wall. Leave the entrance open for 24 hours and it will be robbed out. Then seal the entrance.

The queen in a swarm has been starved down so she can fly and will go through an excluder as quick as any other bee.

I have seen bees go back into a hive through a one way valve made out of wire screen. More than once. I now make my one way valves out of sheet metal with a hanging flapper over the entrance. The bees can push the flap open to get out but cannot pull it open to get back in. This cuts the time frame way down.


----------



## JMann70806 (Oct 13, 2014)

I've seen something like this 1st hand with a swarm . As a kid I watched my grandfather and great grandfather drum a swarm . I have no clue how are why it worked but the swarm landed high in a tree at our farm . Grandfather grabbed a box punched a hole in the side and started tapping on the side of the box with a stick . 20-25 min later the bee's were in the box . I didn't believe it but hey I was like 8 what did I know .


----------



## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Using any of the chemicals will hamper robbing out the honey and I don't want to take any chances on contributing any smells to the house.

This isn't a swarm, they apparently moved in last year and nothing was done about it. The queen has overwintered and I'm assuming she's nice and plump, too plump to fit through an excluder.

I've not drummed a hive but the process is discussed on threads in this forum and on the web by knowledgeable folks all supporting the concept does work. It's rhythmic tapping on woodware/logs rather than short term heavy blows, I'm sure the concrete blocks also change a number of critical dynamics.

The house exit is connected to the trap out box via a PVC tube; the bees are forced to exit through the trap out box and use its entrance/exit. The flapper is a good idea if the bees figure out how to re-enter the exit funnel.

I believe "calling down" a swarm by thumping on a container is sometimes referred to as drumming but I understand the correct term to be tanging. Hadn't even heard of the practice until I started researching drumming in greater detail.

Thanks for all the feedback. So far the owner hasn't been able to find anyone to give them a shot of Raid, if that remains the case through early March I guess the thumping trap out will get a test run. If the trap out happens I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesterms.htm#d

See drumming.

This is a time honored method of moving bees. It will not move all of them but will move a significant number. They tend to move up when drummed. It doesn't require a lot of volume or speed. Just a tap tap tap with a closed pocket knife or a hive tool or a stick. They won't make a mad dash, they just start slowly moving up.


----------



## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Michael,
Thanks for the info, that mirrors what my research has uncovered; I really appreciate the insight. Unfortunately, I need to drive them down and still have some gaps on the best approach. Assuming they are in the second story wall exploiting a gap in the insulation and haven't found a way into the floor joints. Once the daily high temps are consistently in the fifties, do you think starting high on the stud cavity with tapping for 10-15 minutes, move down 8-12 inches and repeat the tapping until I reach the floor would convince them (specifically the queen) to move down and out the house exit? Do you believe any remaining bees will try to build queen cells if any correct age larvae are left behind after her exit, the trap out box will be approx 3 feet down the tube from the house exit?
I've toyed with the idea of taping an automotive turn signal audible "alarm" to the wall just above the hive location and let it blink away for a few days after my drum out attempt.


----------



## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Eikel said:


> Field,
> Thanks for the feedback and I don't disagree with a lot of your points but cut out is not an option for more than one reason, so are stinky chemical.
> 
> Drumming on the outside of a hive will drive bees to exit or at least to move. Their exit from the house is routed, via a piece of PVC fitted with a one way exit, into the back/top of a modified deep. The theory is the colony, specifically the queen, will move away from the drumming, thru the PVC and into the deep. The original entrance/exit is essentually "moved/transferred" to the front of the deep. The problem is I've little experience with drumming and one way exits to accelerate an "eviction" when temps are marginal. I'm looking for anyone who has tried something similar or with an opinion/insight, i.e. a sanity check.
> ...


Learn something new everyday . Things to consider, if it is not warm enough outside the hive for an extended period (flying weather), will they exit the warmth of the hive (walls/floor)?, even if they are being drummed? Sanity check , if they are willing to Raid (which in my experience kills and poisons bees, but never completely extinguishes a hive, takes a little more than that), and leave the "dead" hive/goods within their wall/floor only to create a bigger problem later (which I am sure will not be disclosed to potential buyers), but not willing to "cut" them out, or wait until the weather is doable for a trap/drumming out. This would be my sign to walk away


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In my experience they only move up, not down, when being drummed. If you want to drive them down try to figure out a way to get Beequick or some other repellent BEHIND them (in this case ABOVE them). Like squirting it through a tube, or putting it on a rag and pushing the rag to the top of the nest.


----------



## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Thanks for the insight Michael.

Field, common sense tells me I'm in violent agreement with you on walking away.


----------



## JMoore (May 30, 2013)

Drumming a trapout is described in Roger Morse's writings...but usually involves a bee tree that has been sawn down to the point where they reach the upper most point of the cavity that houses the colony. A hive box is then rigged and sealed on top of the tree trunk allowing for vertical movement of bees. Then tapping is commenced to move the bees UP into the box like Michael suggested. Not to say it may not work in your situation. Also, in my limited experience, I have also found PVC to be poor passage from the cavity to the new box. Bees resist using it for the assumed reason that they do not like the slick interior surface. I eventually roughed up the inside with coarse sandpaper and then rubbed some dirt in the scratched surface. Bees then began to use the passage more willingly but still begrudgingly. However, it wasn't until I removed the PVC contraption and installed a wooden inner/outer sleeve system (described by Hogan with his trapout system) that I began enjoying any success. Go get em.


----------



## JMoore (May 30, 2013)

Also post an update with what you decided to do and how it went.


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

You mentioned that a cut out isn't an option but that is as far as you took it. My question is... why exactly is a cut out not part of the solution here?


----------

