# i believe i have bee pms.



## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Looks like after skipping my inspections for a couple weeks now, I've noticed a drastic change in the health of a couple colonies.

I'm suspecting that they're presenting the symptoms of bee pms. Problem is, my vaporizer is in storage right now as is the rest of my life as I'm in the middle of moving.

I know treatments need to be done or I could lose them. Im curious about a couple methods involving oxalic acid.

Can I utilize the dribble method despite it being warm and having brood?

Or, has anyone tried to put it in a syrup feed and feed the bees and treat art the same time?

I'm curious about the latter idea as I could maybe utilize it as a way for them to always have it around and be constantly consuming the feed with it present for a constant treatment.

I'm not sure, but I think the dribble method is a 3% concentration?

If the syrup feed idea would work I would imagine it would need to be far less of a concentration...

Does any of this sound like good logic, or do i need to go and try and dig my vaporizer out?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

hex0rz said:


> Can I utilize the dribble method despite it being warm and having brood?


Yes but it will be less effective you might be better to consider a different treatment such as Apivar strips. Seeing as there is noticeable pms the varroa infection is fairly advanced.



hex0rz said:


> I'm curious about the latter idea as I could maybe utilize it as a way for them to always have it around and be constantly consuming the feed with it present for a constant treatment.


No, not a good plan. OA is bad for bees digestive systems if they eat it. Doing a drizzle it is unavoidable some will be eaten but this should be minimised. Constant feeding will hurt the colony.



hex0rz said:


> I'm not sure, but I think the dribble method is a 3% concentration?


Yes, 3% mixed with 50% sugar syrup.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

> I'm suspecting that they're presenting the symptoms of bee pms.
What symptoms are those? Got pictures?

PMS and EFB look alike, and there's lots of EFB going around. I would try to rule it out while you treat for mites. (send samples for testing it's free)

You can also make an OVA with a piece of pipe and propane torch, take about 10 min to make one.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

I thought I had efb as well. I looked up the symptoms of both efb and bee pms. They're showing symptoms of bee 92nd more, and I don't have much odor coming from the hives either.

I think I'll probably try the crack pipe method until I get my vaporizer from storage..


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

:lpf::lpf: ahHaHaHa, had to laught at that, "Crack Pipe Method."


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>They're showing symptoms of bee 92nd more
I don't know what you are saying

>don't have much odor coming from the hives either.
EFB has little to no smell, bees usually clean it up quickly (recycling the bacteria) you may only find one or two dead larva per frame.

>I thought I had efb as well.
I have seen EFB get dismissed by bad queens, pesticide, nosema, mites, drone laying worker, queenless, chaulk brood, sac brood, winter dead outs...

Here's a few links to compare pictures.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?298750-Pseudo-Laying-Workers
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?304087-What-is-going-on-with-this


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Sorry, my phone has auto correct...

Built the pipe today and vaporized some oa before work. Wow, I couldn't believe how well it worked. Used all copper pipe and I think it's a nifty setup. Going to try and treat tomorrow off weather is good and I'll try and get some pics too if I can to show what I'm experiencing.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

If I could upload pics from my phone to beesource, I would. I took pics of a frame from the middle of the brood nest in one of the hives. I have at least 2 hives expressing the symptoms.

I'll get them uploaded tonight when I get home and have more time. I treated 5 out of 12 hives with is crack pipe method before I had to go to work. Will have to finish tomorrow. I'm thinking I might treat all 12 with terramyicin for foulbrood so I rule both causes out. The queen is a laying machine. All the cells that got yanked are replaced with eggs or larva. One hive has eggs on the side of the cells. Might be a laying worker? Sound like a supercedure might happen..


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

The first 10 pics...

http://s300.photobucket.com/user/HeX0rz/library/Mobile Uploads?sort=3&page=1


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

It is not classic pms, but there is a problem with the queen. I suspect a new queen may solve things but others may know more.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm thinking about pulling the queens from both hives and letting them go brood less. Then re introduce a new queen and start over. This will set them back 6 weeks though.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

looks like EFB, some of your larva are off colored. A brood break may or may not work. 
Let me know if it does either way.

some treatment options on the links I posted above.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm going to be working them again tomorrow. I'll be taking another look at them to see if it's cleared up or not. Since the rain has broke, they are all buzzing with life. Looks like a nectar flow may be coming in finally.

Beehealth on YouTube states that if a good flow comes on or if the hive is requeened, it's usually enough to pull them through the infection.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

hex0rz said:


> I started over this year with 12 nucs after losing 4/4 the first year.
> 
> I treated for mites but I didn't do a good enough job. Lost 8 out of 12. They were first year hives. I have the pictures of the mite crash to prove it.


Not many hives look that way in May from mites. Did you get negative analysis back from the lab? That would be the only way to prove it, EFB or PMS look identical. However here on besource 75% of spotty brood with lab confirmation have EFB. The spotty brood in your pictures looks like it goes back several brood cycles. Very doubtful a hive that had mites that bad in Mar-Apr could have even survived winter.

Also mentioned above I am guess by your post the brood break and new queens did not fix your problem. Often the queen is the first to get blamed. If it is EFB and you put new bees in the infected comb there is a good chance they will get it again. 

I have helped a lot of people identify and recover from some really bad cases.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

FlowerPlanter said:


> I have helped a lot of people identify and recover from some really bad cases.


Flower Planter what procedures do you recommend to solve a EFB problem without using antibiotics? Shook swarm and queen changing? Anything else less radical?


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Flower Planter what procedures do you recommend to solve a EFB problem without using antibiotics? Shook swarm and queen changing? Anything else less radical?


To tell you the truth; If you are in an area that is prone to EFB and or acquire this possibly new strain that is more resilient I don't think you can over come it without help from antibiotics. I have been following several TF EFB hives none were successful other than letting it die. To me letting a hive die accomplishes nothing. 

If you are 100% against antibiotics, then I would recommend Shook swarm, new queen, replacement of frames and boxes (which can later be sanitizes in 10% bleach/15min, render comb)

A study showed that packages from EFB hives all got EFB 5 weeks after installed in new equipment thousands of mile away in a isolated area, while EFB free packages remain disease free.

Other study shows antibiotics alone have 20% reoccurring EFB, Shook swarm and antibiotics had a 4% reoccurrence. No data on Shook swarm only.

These studies can be found in the links I posted above, post #6.

I recommend treating EFB hives then requeen from hives that show no symptoms.

Also don't use EOs or HBH as it makes AFB and EFB worse and hives more susceptible.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

FlowerPlanter said:


> If you are 100% against antibiotics


Thank you! 
In EU we can't treat the bees with antibiotics. 



> Also don't use EOs or HBH as it makes AFB and EFB worse.


Sorry, what is EOs and HBH?


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Some places in EU they are required to burn badly infected EFB and all AFB. Shook swarm may be your only option prior to burning.

EO are Essential oils, HBH is a product is a mixture of EOs.


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