# Foundation vs Foundationless Frames Question ?



## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

I am interested in this as well as I move forward I'd like to be able to extract honey and have comb instead of crushing and destroying it all.....


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## taydeko (Jan 3, 2012)

BackYardPhenomena said:


> I was thinking of alternating foundation then foundationless in the supers for the advantage of cutting comb and honey during harvest. Any one have experience with this


I don't have direct experience with this yet, however, Michael Bush told me to put the foundationless frames between brood comb initially. If you put it between drawn honey comb, the bees will extend the existing honey combs into the space created and you will have a mess. I saw this yesterday on this site from someone else too.

Ted


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## taydeko (Jan 3, 2012)

CaBees said:


> I am interested in this as well as I move forward I'd like to be able to extract honey and have comb instead of crushing and destroying it all.....


Michael Bush also told me that you can extract foundationless frames just fine. Perhaps you need to be a little gentler than with foundation frames, but I understand that even foundation can collapse.

Ted


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

I ordered 10 ea. deep & med. super to try and am now waiting for UPS delivery (Walter Kelley frames). I will assemble and install a couple of deeps by Sat. I should be able to report something in a month, or less.


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## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

> Michael Bush also told me that you can extract foundationless frames just fine. Perhaps you need to be a little gentler than with foundation frames, but I understand that even foundation can collapse.
> 
> Ted


I followed his method with the popsicle sticks and have read his 2nd book. Unfortunately the honey super frames were so thick and tied together...none were straight and I had no choice but to pull/cut them apart and crush/strain them. I just ordered some wire and may try that with the sticks next time. I'll probably continue to experiment with different methods.

I just can't see putting a frame in between two brood frames and waiting for them to draw it out, then move it up to the honey super before there are eggs in it. Too invasive for me...I'd have to go into the brood nest every day or two. I have however taken just a few frames of honey out and put foundationless between straight honey frames...that did work. I would just like to try something where I can put the super on and leave it alone for 2 -3 weeks without opening the hive and have a good chance they are straight without using foundation.....


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

My suggestion would be to use a medium, or a shallow for cut comb. You can use wax foundation, or starter strips. IMO not a huge diff. You are not extracting so it matters not. If you want to extract, opinions vary on unsupported foundationless. IMO, good luck Plastic foundation, is ok with me for honey supers for extraction, trust me, you would have to be a maniac for that to collapse. Timing is everything when doing this. The flow has to be strong, so the bees draw and fill the comb.


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## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks Rick! I see from your videos you are using foundationless with wire. Do you use an extractor for that or crush and strain? Sorry if dumb question...


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Not wire, fishing line, I think it is 15 or 20 lb test. Stabilizes things till it gets attached to the sides and bottom. One instinctively, in my case, pulls a frame and turns it sideways to view. Bad move. I'm experimenting with bamboo kabob sticks with the line and without. It works with interesting results. I still would not run it through an extractor but that is just my opinion. I've never tried. 
I haven't used my extractor in ,,,,,,,,,,,three/four years. I keep everything for the bees, sell nucs in the spring, and keep the rest on stand by. I do crush and strain for personal use. Not much though.


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## Goat Man (Nov 23, 2011)

I too use fishing line on all my foundationless frames. The fishing line also helps if you want to cut out any queen cells . I use all mediums here and tie the line in an X pattern through the bottom two holes.
If there is a good flow going on I just placed a drawn comb on each side of the box and all foundationless frames in between. My bees drew them out without any burr comb. I have used a radial extractor without any blow outs. Works for me..


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

GM, I didn't realize something till now, I'm thinking extraction in terms of three frame with frame face against the extractor wall, which is what I have, not radially. One can see why I would have my doubts with my type. I can see radial working 
The key to success on foundationless is timing with a flow and or augmented with feeding. I've had the bees over extend the top corners with foundation as well.


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

Goat Man said:


> I too use fishing line on all my foundationless frames. The fishing line also helps if you want to cut out any queen cells . I use all mediums here and tie the line in an X pattern through the bottom two holes.


If you want to see a video FBM (Fat Bee Man) has a video on YouTube on how to install the fishing line, but he is putting small cell foundation he makes in the frames. However the X pattern stringing is the same with the exception of FBM puts an X on each side of his foundation and Goat Man is only doing one set of the X pattern (I think I read correctly, but sing out if I am wrong).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnzAxZDICLc&feature=plcp

I got 20 Med. Super and 10 Deep foundation-less frames assembled last night and may put the X fishing line in my deeps, but not in my Med. frames, I think....

Goat Man when stringing your frames with fishing line do you put the grommets in the end bars or not? Just curious...


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## Gord (Feb 8, 2011)

Last year I went totally foundationless on 3 hives, and all were cross combed.
This year, I alternated plastic frames with foundationless, and had NO crossed comb.
I don't reinforce my foundationless frames at all, and have had no problems with comb collapse.


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## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

GOATMAN


> I just placed a drawn comb on each side of the box and all foundationless frames in between. My bees drew them out without any burr comb.


How do you get your drawn foundation less comb? Do you steal it before they stick honey or eggs in there?

Why do you all use fishing line instead of wire? Is it just cheaper? I just got wire shipped to me from Mann lake.... is it considered polluting or anything I should know? 

GORD


> I don't reinforce my foundationless frames at all, and have had no problems with comb collapse.


Are you referring to comb collapse in the extractor? I have to admit I have never even seen an extractor work yet? Maybe next year if I get enough honey to harvest to borrow one from the club or go to one of their 'honey extraction parties'. My main issue is the burr comb in the honey supers.

thanks all! CaBees!


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## Goat Man (Nov 23, 2011)

Yes I still put in the grommets. Not sure if they are needed or not. But I had them so I put them in. I just string them on an ice pick and push them into the frame. Easy to do..;o)
When I was regressing some bees from 5.4mm cell sizes down to 4.9mm I did use starter strips. I cut them in half and threaded them between the X. They went past the intersection point of the X and became very stable. I went from 5.4mm to 5.1mm to 4.9mm to foundationless. It was an experiment to see which size got drawn out quickest. I didn't see any difference in the speed they drew out each size. But once I got them down to foundationless frames they did draw it out faster in my opinion. I changed the cell sizes every 30 days.
when they are drawing out comb they use the comb next to them as a guide for the next one and so on. If they start one wrong you have to correct it ASAP. Or it will run through the whole super. I checked my hives every 10 days during the spring flow to keep them on the "straight and narrow."
My plan, after reading allot of opinions about small cell being better for varroa control, was to get all my bees down to 4.9mm for winter. Then I thought we forced them to draw out 5.4mm cell size, now we are forcing them into 4.9mm cell size. I didn't like that. The bees know best. So now all my hives are foundationless. I am a small operation, not a commercial beekeeper. I can afford to experiment to see what works best for me and the bees. We shall see next spring if all my experimenting has paid off or not..;o)


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## Goat Man (Nov 23, 2011)

Hi CaBees, I used any empty drawn comb I had on hand. In my case I used comb I had extracted honey from earlier. It doesn't have to be foundationless comb to be used as a guide. They don't know if there is a foundation in it or not once it is drawn out. Hope this helps.;o)


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## Goat Man (Nov 23, 2011)

I forgot to add that I use fishing line instead of wire on my frames because it makes it easier to cut out queen cells if I need them. Once the comb is attached on all four sides they are pretty secure no matter what you use..;o)


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## JRH (Dec 30, 2010)

> GOATMAN: Why do you all use fishing line instead of wire?


Fishing line is:

Cheaper
MUCH easier to install
Works better than wire because it supports the foundation on BOTH sides - not just one.

Wire may be "traditional." Skeps were traditional for a long time, too.


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## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

> Wire may be "traditional." Skeps were traditional for a long time, too.


What are Skeps? 

Thanks all!!!


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## Goat Man (Nov 23, 2011)

Try this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skep#Skeps


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

After one week and 3 more like it. May have to feed soon, minor derth in our area.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you alternate foundationless and foundation in the supers they will draw the foundationless, ignore the foundation and make the foundationless combs so fat that you can't get the frames with foundation out. I would not alternate. One frame of foundation is enough to establish the line for the rest but a drawn capped comb would be better.


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