# BWrangler Update



## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

It's been awhile, but a recent thread linked to one of my earlier posts. And, although not related to the thread's subject, I promised an update on that post a year and a half ago. Thought I had. Did a search and couldn't find one so here goes:

In 2009 my small cell hives weren't doing so well. In 2010 they continued to decline. There were no mite or apparent disease problems, so I decided to split the yard and requeen. My thinking then:
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/natural-limits/

Then it became apparent many wild bees were having problems as well:
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/silence/

The bees continued to struggle. My assessment at the end of 2010:
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/reflections-2010/

Spring 2011:
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/yeo/

Condensed test yard history:
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/the-plan/

So, after 12 years, no more special small cell bees or hives. During their history, my treatment free beekeeping expectations were more than met. After the initial season's problems with small cell, I never had to treat for mites or anything else. The hives were healthy, productive, long lived and vigorous. They escaped the mites and other common brood diseases. But they couldn't cope with the latest wave of CCD viruses.

I learned more about bees and real beekeeping from working with these hives, than I learned from 30 years of commercial beekeeping. It was the success of these hives, combined with the onerous side of getting small cell comb, that took my beekeeping in a more natural direction.

Even though I went natural and left the small cell posting war to others, I continued to look into several aspects of small cell.

But that's all done now. The decades old small cell combs are virus laden and will be rendered this coming spring.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Dennis, thanks for the update, I read your blog from time to time and while sometimes your methods leave me perplexed at the illogicality, I appreciate the data.

My question is what did you requeen with when you trashed the yard?

Secondly, why kill survivor queens?

Don't take this as veiled incredulity, I really do want to understand why you do what you do.

Thanks.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Solomon Parker said:


> your methods leave me perplexed at the illogicality


Perhaps a better word to use would be 'logic.' Could be just your opinion that they are illogical.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Well, I'd have to rewrite the sentence if I used the word 'logic.' I worked hard on that sentence. 

But what I meant is that I don't get the logic. But I was never a commercial beekeeper and I obviously think differently than a lot of people. :lookout:


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Fortunately, we all thing different.

Dennis, thanks for that update. I was wondering where you had disappeared to.

DarJones


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

Solomon, there's no problem. Your incredulity just barely shows through the veil.  Really there's no problem. Having been around bees all my life, it's hard for me write as clear about them as I would like to.

The logic? There are at least two approaches that are taken when a yard is in decline. And I've tried both of them. 

- One method involves borrowing from strong hives to reinforce the weak ones. It results in no strong hives, a few more normal hives, and fewer weak hives that still take lots of work. With this method, a beekeeper spends at least half his time working with non-productive hives.

-Another approach leaves the strong and normal hives intact, but yard trashes the weak ones. The results are no disruptions to the strong and normal hives and their production. And no coddling of the weak. Ether the splits take off or they don't. And those that do, usually do very well.

Unfortunately, in this yard, they were all weak and declining. I thought that resulted from a couple of very poor nutritional seasons and very old queens. After all, there were little to no varroa mites, no brood diseases, etc. Little did I know that the old turbo CCD that once took 400 hives/week had a slowmo variant. And that I'd been watching it progress for two years!

Queens? I tried both Zia lines. They don't treat. And I also tried Koehnen's which I've been very satisfied with(both bees and people) in the past. The trashing and infusion of new queens stopped the dramatic decline. But the hives failed to thrive.

Survivor queens? Well, some of them a little and the others not so much. Something else was needed. 

Even before mites and my small cell experience, I was focused on survivor queens. That was the original reason for creating this test yard in 1984. Mites and then small cell only reinforced my survivor queen focus. But when these bees passed through a genetic bottle neck while regressing, I found that luck can be as big a factor as genetics.

Once this test yard was on small cell, survival hadn't been limited to 'survival queen genetics'. All races easily survived and thrived. My selection criteria moved back to a more traditional focus like temperament, etc.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Dennis, thanks for that explanation. I know I come off as a bit snappy, but I don't intend it that way, and I try not to. I'm just eager to get the flow of information moving.

I know you explained what 'yard trashing' is at some point, but I don't seem to be able to find it right at the moment. Could you explain what it is and how you use the term?

I never liked the idea of boosting weak hives. I've been developing a new management technique in the past few months using some techniques from Michael Palmer's playbook. My plan is to leave my good productive colonies alone and let them produce honey rather than splitting them all the time to make increases which seriously dents their honey production. Instead, I'll graft queens from those colonies and hatch the cells in nucs made of the weak or moderate colonies. Dink or moderate queens can live out their days in nucs drawing new comb and providing support for other colonies, or they can die of their own accord. I figure if they can survive in this world, they deserve at least the chance to be superseded and for their genes to remain in it. It's how I got my most productive hive. I'm also going to try to overwinter nucs next year.

I also tried two queens of each of Zia's lines this year. One RMR didn't survive the record breaking summer, and the other never looked very healthy and was superseded yielding a nice looking and well behaved queen. Both Sooper Yoopers are still with us, though one of them is very hot and the other one just a bit less so.

I also noticed you mentioned having decade old small cell comb. Do you have any comments on the possible effects of old comb?

Thanks for your time.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hi Dennis, thanks for sharing and your honesty is refreshing, it's plain you've told it exactly how it is. 

A question. Initially you had success with sc bees, even when they were in the same yard with other bees. So why now give it away? I don't see why you feel the CCD is linked to the sc's. OK, they are old, but if you need to renew this could just as easily be done with new sc combs as any other combs.

BTW just so you know where I'm coming from, I have no fixed opinions on sc one way or the other as I'll need a few years experience first. I am very much in learning mode, and you sound like a guy honest enough to learn from. I'll probably be bugging you with some more questions through the thread.

Another thing, as you have 30 years commercial experience, I'm guessing you'd be accustomed, from times past, to much lower losses than what sometimes passes for normal now a days. Could you just be expecting too much, where a young less experienced beekeeper could have similar losses, but still consider themselves a success?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Have you looked into the cost of irradiating your small cell drawn comb? It may be cheaper than the cost of new foundation(what ever size), and the cost of labor to install.

Crazy Roland


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

How would we track down irradiation service in our area? No commercial beekeeping here.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

It is mostly used to sterilize other types of equipment, medical, etc? Google "irradiation services" and see what pops up.

Crazy Roland


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Roland said:


> It is mostly used to sterilize other types of equipment, medical, etc? Google "irradiation services" and see what pops up.Crazy Roland


Mostly hospitals, but I do see one that look like it might work. I will check it out. Thanks 
My ?CCD? deadouts get refilled every year with bait swarms and I am not seeing anything that indicates they cause more dead outs than new combs, but sterilization would make me know I did all I could to stop contagions .


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

ODfrank wrote:

I am not seeing anything that indicates they cause more dead outs than new combs,

From our experience , you have not experienced the "Real" CCD. When you do, nothing will survive.

Crazy Roland


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

Let talk yard trashing. There's no one better at it than me.

- first take decade old treatment free bees that tolerate varroa mites.

- then, because they're bullet proof, move them in with the most disease infested, mite ridden commercial bees possible as the ultimate test.

- retrieve them after 3 seasons and think everything is fine because they look normal and there's no mite problems.

- they buy $1000 worth of new woodenware, $275 worth of queens, $250 worth of sugar and pollen sub to revitalize the yard.

- split the bees equally into the new equipment.

- give them two shots of malathion.

- come back next spring and find all the bees dead and all that new equipment chronically infected with CCD virus.

Now that's a yard that's been thoroughly trashed. At least that's how this beekeeper does it. ))

NOW FOR THE REAL YARD TRASHING

It's a way to quickly and easily break down a yard into nucs. It's probably not a very good way to do things if a yard has virus problems.

First, a quick and dirty assessment of the number of frames of brood and bees is made by inspecting a couple of hives.

Then nucs or in my case singles are set up randomly off to the side of the yard.

That night all the hives are smoked and opened. Then frames of brood, bees, and food are randomly pulled and inserted into the nucs until each nuc has the same number of frames of brood, etc. No regard for, or looking for old queens, etc. The more combs from different hives are mixed up in the nucs, the better.

Ripe queen cells are inserted in each nuc. They are allowed to mate and lay.

Then nucs are inspected. Those that don't make the grade are culled.

Sounds horrible, but works great. It creates a ruckus the next day. So, it's not an option for a stealth urban beekeeper. But a large yard can be torn down and nucs created in less than an hour. Most of that time is actually spent handling empty equipment.

Regards - Dennis


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

Let's talk old comb.

Considering some commercial comb I've worked with, decade old small cell comb is relatively young. I've worked comb with frames that were repaired with metal from car license plates dated 1932. Some of it was so tough, it couldn't be cut with a knife. More like shoe leather than beeswax comb.

Concerning the small cell comb. It's dark, but not nearly as dark as typical comb that age. I think the bees keep the midrib and walls thinner. I had planned to put my small cell comb on a 3 year rotation. But it was so hard/expensive to get drawn out. And all my small cell hives were involved in tests that would have been disturbed by replacing queens, comb, etc. So, I didn't.

But 10 year old comb is probably too old by a factor of 2. Before mites, studies show feral colonies typically lived for 3 years, rarely to 5 before succumbing. That's probably a good guide.

Letting bees draw out and inhabit new comb has a revitalizing effect on a colony. At least that's been my experience with average bees put in top bar hives. I've had queens that have barely escaped the hive tool on typical comb in a Lang hive, become my best performers when shaken into a top bar hive. And I've watched colonies loose chronic diseases like chalkbrood the same way.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

BWrangler said:


> But 10 year old comb is probably too old by a factor of 2. Before mites, studies show feral colonies typically lived for 3 years, rarely to 5 before succumbing. That's probably a good guide.


This has been my impression for a good long time, maybe I got it from you first, I don't remember. Recently however, someone told me different. Do you have a source for these studies? It would be a good solid piece of information. Thanks.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

It's my understanding that radiation is the only real cure for CCD infected equipment. My hope is that it's not the case. I hope some beekeepers have bees that can survive a CCD infected hive.

I suspect that the long incubation period for slowmo CCD has some beekeepers as confident as I was ignorant. I had indications, in hind sight, that my bees were doomed three years before they showed definative symptoms. Then taking another season after that to perish.

A beekeeper on another list tried this. He put empty CCD infected equipment on an ant hill. The ants went through the same process as the bees. They languished and then died. Not a good sign.

Not sure what I'm going to do with the equipment. It's store away in my garage.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

What is the purpose of treating bees with malathion?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

BWrangler said:


> Not sure what I'm going to do with the equipment.


Until you've decided, get your carboy out of storage and get brewing!


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I suspect that the malathion was a case of leg pulling.

One major note from the above, periodic comb renewal is definitely beneficial to the bees. A 5 year cycle seems to be about optimum.

DarJones


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

The three or four Top Bar nucs I grew this past season has confirmed, for me, what is being said in this thread about new combs. Almost the moment the bees were taken off their old framed combs, they rapidly built themselves new combs on the top bars, then filled them with brood and supplies - it was astounding. The nucs given this care, continued to perform amazingly well afterwards, too.

I'm anxiously awaiting the first signs of the expected wildflower flow, so I can try forcing some new comb on many other nucs, too.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

The malathion was provided free of charge by my county health department. Unknown to me, they were spraying to control the West Nile Virus. The beeyard took two direct hits. The hives were wet both times.

The irony - As the hives continued to languish at my river yard, I moved them to a new agricultural location hoping it would jump start some forage or feeding, etc. I put them right in the spray.

The malathion just accelerated the end result. I suspect without the spray damage, a few hives would have made it through the winter and then perished the following spring. With the spray damage they all bit the dust that fall.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Ah yes, I remember now.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Amazing.

In my country spraying contractors are required to take extreme care around beehives and could be in serious trouble if they sprayed some. 

Malathion would have had to be part of the cause. It is a residual OP that may remain active on a painted surface for several months. There is no way it would not have affected your bees.

Anyhow, to pick up on something else you said, what is slow motion CCD? Is it a recognised condition?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Someone wrote:

I hope some beekeepers have bees that can survive a CCD infected hive.

Don't hold your breath. It seems to kill 90 percent a year. Soon, nothing has survived.

As far as old comb(someif from the 60's we think), it is not the age, but rather the pathogens contained that are detrimental(assuming no miticides). We have had our old equipment sterilized and see no difference from the hives started on foundation. 

Crazy Roland


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## SERGE (Sep 14, 2010)

BWrangler said:


> Unfortunately, in this yard, they were all weak and declining. I thought that resulted from a couple of very poor nutritional seasons and very old queens...


Hello Dennis,
Thank you for sharing your experience. 
You mention that this yard had some very old queens. I thought that with checkerboarding, the queens get superseded automatically annually, or were these hives not CB'd like some of your other ones?
Thanks
Serge


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

BWrangler said:


> - come back next spring and find all the bees dead and all that new equipment chronically infected with CCD virus.


I have not been tracking CCD closely, but the last I heard was that the cause of CCD is still unknown. Again, my information could be very old. What is it that makes you certain that a "CCD virus" was the one of the causes of the decline. Did you have any of the bees or comb tested?


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

SERGE said:


> Hello Dennis,
> ... I thought that with checkerboarding, the queens get superseded automatically annually, or were these hives not CB'd like some of your other ones?
> Thanks
> Serge


Hi Serge

That hasn't been my experience.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi AstroBee

Randy Oliver has a very interesting series called "Sick Bees" in the American Bee Journal. He has been able to replicate the classic fast CCD and a new slow motion kind of CCD. It's an interesting read some of which is available at:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/colony-health/

Roland(above and in the ABJ?, I've lost the references) and others? have been able to use infected equipment after irradiating it.

Both point to a virus source.

My bout with the classic variety happened so fast that I didn't have any real observations. It was booming hives one day. Three days later CCD hives.

The slow motion variety I've recently experienced, gave me lots of time to observe, interact with and think about the process. And I couldn't have designed a better way to evenly inoculate an entire yard than splitting it the way I did.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Yes, I have reused bad equipment after it has been sterilized, with no re-occurrence.

Credit must be given to Hackenburg, who I believe was the first to report that irradiation was successful.

Crazy Roland


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Is Acetic Acid fumigation still believed to be an effective method to sterilize suspect CCD equipment?


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

opcorn:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Is Acetic Acid fumigation still believed to be an effective method to sterilize suspect CCD equipment? 

I never knew it was known to be effective in the first place. Irradiation is , per Hackenberg.

Crazy Roland


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I found this presentation by Steve Pernal regarding comb sterilization. Interesting study.

http://www.extension.org/pages/3036...cted-comb-by-irradiation-acetic-acid-and-heat


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