# How do queens kill other queens still in the cell?



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

How does the first emerging queen kill other queens that are still in their cells? Do they sting thru the cell to get to them or what? That cell wall seems kinda thick for them to sting thru.........


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

the side of the queen cell will be chewed out and she will sting her.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

G3farms said:


> the side of the queen cell will be chewed out and she will sting her.


Gotcha, but is it the new virgin queen that chews out the side of the cell? Seems like that is a lot of "chewing."


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I think that's how it happens. Ask Lynn.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I think that's how it happens. Ask Lynn.


Mark, Lynn wasn't really sure, that's why I asked here.....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I wondered. Maybe Larry Conner or Dave Miksa knows. Or someone on beesource. I hope you are enjoying the liquid sunshine.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have seen comments many times that cells in an incubator will all be destroyed if one virgin gets loose. It may seem like a lot of chewing but from what I have gathered one virgin will devote the time to get it done.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Daniel Y said:


> I have seen comments many times that cells in an incubator will all be destroyed if one virgin gets loose. It may seem like a lot of chewing but from what I have gathered one virgin will devote the time to get it done.


I've gathered/heard that also, but who knows for sure how it's done???


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I hope you are enjoying the liquid sunshine.


Probably just as much as you............NOT!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

snl said:


> I've gathered/heard that also, but who knows for sure how it's done???


Huber didn't write about this? I bet Michael Bush has some idea.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

snl said:


> Gotcha, but is it the new virgin queen that chews out the side of the cell? Seems like that is a lot of "chewing."


That part I do not know, never witnessed it myself.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I think it's a pretty safe assumption that the virgin is working in concert with workers. She needs only to attack and penetrate the cell, the workers are doing the "heavy lifting" required to clean them out and dispose of the unhatched virgin. A lone virgin in an incubator rarely does much, if any, damage.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I "hear" you Jim, and they are my assumptions also. I would really just like to know from someone who knows (witnessed it)....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Someone needs to set up an observation hive and raise a set of queen cells in it w/ a camera continuously recording. Maybe one from each side, just in case.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

snl said:


> I "hear" you Jim, and they are my assumptions also. I would really just like to know from someone who knows (witnessed it)....


Well, I have witnessed the aftermath. I have seen what a virgin can do in an active hive in a few hours and I have seen what she can do in the same time frame all alone and there isn't a comparison. Having lost about 150 beautiful cells to virgins in the past 48 hours it's a subject near and dear to my heart.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> Having lost about 150 beautiful cells to virgins in the past 48 hours it's a subject near and dear to my heart.


Well maybe someone who has witnessed it can comment here and satisfy our curiosity......


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> According to preliminary data obtained from close observation of the observation hive, virgin queens spent 35.1 min in biting the sidewall of queen cells with a pupa and a total of 63.5 min on average (n = 5; Sonezaki, 1988) for the whole destruction, from the encounter to leaving the queen cell. The selective queen cell destruction probably contributes to sav- ing time that might be spent in destroying younger queen cells for use instead in searching for and destroying the fully matured queen cells. The results suggest that the pre-emergence queen cells may emit some stimuli by which virgin queens recognize them. Some reports suggest that this may be a chemical stim- ulus. Queen cells emit queen-pheromone-like chemicals (Boch, 1979; Free and Ferguson, 1982), which may reach the highest level just before emergence


. -- Virgin queens selectively destroy fully matured queen cells in the honeybee Apis mellifera L. Insect. Soc. 51 (2004) 253–258


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

peterloringborst said:


> . -- Virgin queens selectively destroy fully matured queen cells in the honeybee Apis mellifera L. Insect. Soc. 51 (2004) 253–258


So it takes a little over and hour for the virgin queen to kill a queen still in the cell? Am I reading that correctly?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

I am just now looking into this. Those guys clocked it at an hour. However, it appears that the queen isn't always the one who kills off the pupae. For example:



> Sometimes, queens attacking cells do not sting the occupant, instead departing after having only chewed a hole in the cell. Stinging occurs most often when a cell’s occupant has pupated and is ready to emerge. Workers near a cell that is under attack either ignore the visiting queen or enlarge the hole that she chews in the wall of the cell. The workers eventually tear down queen cells that are damaged by emerged queens and dispose of the queen pupae that occupied them.


 -- Three mechanisms of queen elimination in swarming honey bee colonies. Apidologie 36 (2005) 461–474


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

They definitely have some sort of mechanism for identifying virgins about to emerge as they will ignore newly capped cells yet can be seen aggressively attacking the sidewalls of "ripe" cells in the same builder. Based on the amount of damage they do in such a short period of time they certainly need help from workers. It may well be they simply "mark" their targets and let workers do most of the dirty work.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

seems like i have read somewhere that the virgins start piping before they emerge. maybe this is part of how they are located by the virgins that have already emerged.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Yep virgins that have not hatched yet will pipe, do know that for a fact.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Someone needs to set up an observation hive and raise a set of queen cells in it w/ a camera continuously recording.


OK Mark, since you suggested it, I'm volunteering..................... YOU! :applause:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, I should know better. :no:


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

jim lyon said:


> They definitely have some sort of mechanism for identifying virgins about to emerge





> Le Conte et al. (1995a, b) reported that worker bees recognize queen cells by certain fatty acids produced by queen broods and that the compound ratio changed depending on the stage. Virgin queens may recognize these fatty acids to determine the stage of the brood. It is possible that acoustical stimuli, i.e. airborne or substrate-borne sounds, also provide cues be- cause these stimuli are inevitably produced by the emerging queens when they move inside the cell and bite the cocoon and wax wall to emerge from the cell.


-- ￼The role of chemical and acoustical stimuli in selective queen cell destruction by virgin queens of the honeybee Apis mellifera (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Appl. Entomol. Zool. 39 (4): 611–616 (2004)


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good morning plb, nice to see you here.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

peterloringborst said:


> -- ￼The role of chemical and acoustical stimuli in selective queen cell destruction by virgin queens of the honeybee Apis mellifera (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Appl. Entomol. Zool. 39 (4): 611–616 (2004)


That's all good info Pete and helps the thread move forward, thanks..... but, but.........still does not answer the question...........


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

snl said:


> still does not answer the question...........


 Which question?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

The title of the thread..... How do queens kill other queens (physically) still in the cell....


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Question now is who actually chews a hole in the side of the cell.........virgin queen or workers?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Just this month (Mar 9), I watched the workers chew open 3 capped queen cells from the sides and this was 3 weeks after the virgin hatched (and never mated due to the lack of drones that time of year). I was in the hive that day to move the cells to different hives because they were due to hatch 3 days later and was heart broken to see they got to all 3 before I did. One white queen larvae was still alive in the cell, but there was nothing I could do to save her. As best I could tell, the unmated virgin queen (who hatched around Feb 20) had nothing to do with the destruction.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Don't forget that infected queen cells, like those infected with BQCV, may be destroyed by worker policing.

I thought that the first virgin queen would sting the cell itself?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

So we don't have an answer yet...


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

snl said:


> So we don't have an answer yet...


Not sure what you're after. Not many people have spent the time it takes to observe this taking place. Those that have agree that the queen chews the cells of the unborn queens. These damaged cells are torn down by the workers. At what point the pupa dies is moot, she's a goner as far as the colony goes. And it may not be the same in every colony nor every time. Instincts are not hard wired, they can be variable. One thing is sure, if you have a batch of queen cells and one gets out, it's a mess. I have also seen where dozens are hatching at the same time. I don't think the queen really has an invariable program she is working from.

P


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Peter,
I think you've just answered it. I've always thought (and so it is written) that the "liberated" virgin queen actually "stings, thus killing" the un-hatched queen. Now, from what I gather from what you've written, is that the liberated queen "marks" the un-hatched queens by chewing on her cell wall and the workers are the ones who tear down the cells and in the process, kill the queen. 

Is that correct?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?*

"How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?"

Unfortunately, and sometimes, to my great distress: they do it all too efficiently.

Twice now I was unavoidably delayed in harvesting groups of cells. As I lifted a cell bar, I noticed that one virgin emerged as I carried the cell bar to an empty nuc, to hold it in. Others were cutting their own exits - nearly all fifteen cells then emerged within a few minutes. It was all I could do to round them up and cage each one individually, before they could start fussing with each other. However, after each was caged - with a few attendants, all cages in near vicinity to each other, they did begin a piping concert at that time.

I too, do not have positive confirmation as to the exact apparatus and technique used by virgins to dispatch their sisters, still "safely" in their cells. I have, however, seen virgins pulling larvae out of open queen cells. I expect that those dispatched from their sealed cells, were simply stung through their cells, and the presence of the venom inspires the workers to complete the tear-down.

I look forward to reading of observations of the precise details.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?*

Here is exactly what happened to the other unfortunate queen sister cells after the first virgin had emerged.
1) As soon as the first queen emerged, she quickly patrolled the hive to find other sister qcs. 
2) After she found one she will sting it thru the cell wall on the side. Sometimes with multiple stings in different location on the cell.
And since the queen's stinger cannot be dislodge she can repeat this over and over until all the sister qcs are all dead.
3) The remains of the dead queen while still inside the qc will be disguarded by the worker bees as part of their house keeping process.
Do you want to see this process in action?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?*



beepro said:


> Here is exactly what happened to the other unfortunate queen sister cells after the first virgin had emerged.
> 1) As soon as the first queen emerged, she quickly patrolled the hive to find other sister qcs.
> 2) After she found one she will sting it thru the cell wall on the side. Sometimes with multiple stings in different location on the cell.
> And since the queen's stinger cannot be dislodge she can repeat this over and over until all the sister qcs are all dead.
> ...


Yeah........about as much as I want to watch the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?*



beepro said:


> Do you want to see this process in action?


Sure. Do you have a video of it?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?*



beepro said:


> Do you want to see this process in action?


You betcha, that's why I posed the question...........


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?*



jim lyon said:


> I want to watch the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.


Hey, that was a GOOD movie!


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

*Re: How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?*

If you have a video post it up. Good learning experience for the rest of us.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?*



> ) After she found one she will sting it thru the cell wall on the side.


 I find this difficult to believe. She may attempt to sting through the cell wall. However, it appears that queens feel compelled to chew a hole in the side. There seems to be evidence that this enough, that cell is "marked" for disposal. Also, she may mark the cell with her stinger in some way, like leaving a drop of her venom. And, as I mentioned before, there may be a lot of variation in what happens from hive to hive, or from different queens. There may not be "the way it's done" at all. 

PLB


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?*

Took a while, but I finally found this:


> Destruction of Queen Cells Placed in Queenright Apis mellifera Colonies
> Authors: CARON, DEWEY M.; GREVE, CARLTON W.
> Source: Annals of the Entomological Society of America, Volume 72, Number 3, 15 May 1979 , pp. 405-407(3)
> 
> ...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?*

Like I thought, Huber knew.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

*Re: How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?*



snl said:


> You betcha, that's why I posed the question...........


Where is the video link I would like to see it. thank you in advance.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

*Re: How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?*

I wonder if different strains handle it in different ways.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?*



sqkcrk said:


> Like I thought, Huber knew.


Yeah, maybe, but on further reading... .........."We could not verify the report of Huber (1814) on queen stinging of occupants in over 2 dozen cell destructions that we observed. It is evident that the usual role for workers is to complete cell destruction once it is begun by the queen."


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: How do queens kill other queens, still in their cells?*

Huber's observations:

"In one of my hives in particular, there were five or six royal cells, each including a nymph. The eldest first underwent its transformation. Scarcely did ten minutes elapse from the time of her leaving her cradle, when she visited the other royal cells still close. Furiously attacking the nearest, by dint of labor she succeeded in opening the top, and we saw her tearing the silk of the cocoon with her teeth; but probably her efforts were inadequate to the object, for she abandoned this end of the cell, and began at the other, where she effected a larger aperture. When it was of sufficient size, she endeavored to introduce her belly, and made many exertions, until she succeeded in giving her rival a deadly wound with her sting. Then quitting the cell, all the be that hitherto had been spectators of her labour began to enlarge the opening, and drew out the dead body of a queen scarcely come from its envelope of a nymph.

"Meanwhile the victorious young queen attacked another royal cell, but did not endeavor to introduce her extremity into it. Here there was only a royal nymph, and no queen, come to maturity, as in the first cell. In all probability, the nymphs of queens inspire their rivals with less animosity. Still they do not escape destruction: because, whenever a royal cell has been opened before the proper time, the bees extract the contents in whatever form they may be, whether warm, nymph or queen: and when this victorious female had abandoned the second cell, the workers, enlarging the opening which she had effected, extracted the included nymph. Lastly, the young queen attacked a third cell, but could not succeed in penetrating it. She labored languidly, appearing as if exhausted by her previous exertions. As we now required queens for some particular experiments, we resolved to remove the other royal cells, yet in safety, to secure them from her resentment."--Francis Huber, New Observations on the Natural History of Bees (Volume I, Letter VI)

"The mode of spinning their cocoons has given me great surprise and there I have witnessed many new and interesting facts. The worms both workers and males fabricate complete cocoons in their cells; that is, close at both ends, and surrounding the whole body. On the other hand the royal larvae spin imperfect cocoons, open behind, and enveloping only the head, thorax and first ring of he abdomen. This discovery of this difference, which at first may seem trifling, has been the source of extreme pleasure to me, for it evidently demonstrates the admirable art with which nature connects the various characteristics of the industry of the bees.

"You recollect, Sir, the evidence I gave you of the mutual aversion of queens, of the combats in which they engage, and the animosity that leads them to destroy one another. Of several royal nymphs in a hive, the first transformed attacks the rest, and stings them to death. But were these nymphs enveloped in complete cocoons, she could not accomplish it. Why? Because the silk is of so close a texture, the sting could not penetrate, or if it did, the barbs would be retained by the meshes of the cocoon, and the queen, unable to retract it, would become the victim of her own fury. Thus, that she may destroy her rivals, it is necessary the last rings of the body shall remain uncovered; and the royal nymphs must therefore form only imperfect cocoons. You will observe that the last rings alone should be exposed, for the sting can penetrate no other part: the head and thorax are protected by connected shelly plates, which it cannot pierce. "--Francis Huber, New Observations on the Natural History of Bees (Volume I, Letter VIII)

www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Authors: CARON, DEWEY M.; GREVE, CARLTON W.
Source: Annals of the Entomological Society of America, Volume 72, Number 3, 15 May 1979 , pp. 405-407(3)
We could not verify the report of Huber (1814) on queen stinging of occupants in over 2 dozen cell destructions that we observed. It is evident that the usual role for workers is to complete cell destruction once it is begun by the queen.

Since Huber's work could not be verified does anyone know of any other references?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You don't have the vid for it?

Yes, on you tube there is such a vid that I saw. In observation also the workers will 
tear down these qcs after the virgin hatched. Because the larva in development is
still alive. Workers, when tearing down the qc will do it on the side or sometime at the
comb to cell connection. The only way to observe this is to work closely with a queen
rearing calendar to time it down. Sometimes a virgin queen will not get rid of the sister
qc. I don't know why this is the case this time? 
The mother queen that I got was from a local beekeeper who don't use a veil or suit to handle his bees. Maybe he
got stung and did not tell me. I always though that his bees are the gentle type. 
I am still waiting to see if the virgin will kill this qc or not. Maybe she is a gentle type queen and not an aggressive type.
Maybe after her mating flight this week when the temp is higher then she will come back to destroy it. Not sure what the virgin or the workers will do
with this qc yet. Probably it will hatch out and one mated queen fighting with a virgin queen. I think different
specie of bee does it differently. I am still learning as I go along this season.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

I have observed this twice now in our observation hive.

8-10 queen cells made when hive was stocked but queen less.
First to emerge spends some time just resting and possibly hardening off?
Then she begins to patrol the hive. Each queen cell will have a group of nurse bees constantly surrounding and covering it. Initially they will not let the new queen come close to it. They do not forcibly attack or repell her, but just body block.

Eventually she will get past them. It seems like the vigor of their defense gets less the longer the new queen has been active in the hive. Once past them she inspects the cell top to bottom. Sometimes she will then simply move on. Other times she will sting the cell repeatedly. Mostly through the side, sometimes through the tip. Then she moves on. Her attentions generally seem most focused on those cells closest to emerging.
With minets of her stinging the cell, those bees who were defending it begin tearing it open from the side.
The virgin will usually come back once a bit later. Once she finds the cell destroyed her attention to that area decreases dramatically, but she will still check in on it periodically.

Our ob hive is three deep frames. Usually all the cells are on one or two frames. And it took several days for the virgin to destroy the remaining cells once she went into her patrol mode.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

Other things worth noting
I have not sen the queen chew on the cells at all
Sometimes the queen only stings the cell once. In the two cases I saw this, the workers began the tear down at the location of the sting


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I got a bunch of queen cells from a friend this last week. He told me to use them quickly because they were ready to emerge. He told me to look them over and check to see if the queen had emerged or if the side of the cell had been chewed.

I found that three queens had emerged. One was dead in the bottom of the box. One cell had obvious chew marks on the side. One had a hole chewed in it. So, who other than a virgin queen could have done that.

But I did not witness the act.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

windfall is correct. Other than finding and stinging the qcs a virgin will fight other
virgin that emerged at the same time. They will try to sting each others on the abdomen
until one survive the fight. Depending on how many qcs in the hive, a virgin doesn't has the
time to tear down these cells. No time to make a hole on the side either that the workers can
detect a dead larva still inside the capped cell. These workers will finish the job after the cells got 
stung as she is too busy finding other about to emerge queen cells to dispose of. She will not risk the
chance that other queens might emerge at the same time to potentially kill her also.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

I wouldn't say I am "correct" I was just reporting what I have observed. My sample size is only two cycles of the hive raising a queen. And neither time did I get to see the queen destroy all of the other cells present, usually I only saw the action 1/2 the time.

sqcrk's experience would seem to say they chew the cells. Perhaps the presence or absence of the nurse bees effects the behavior?

I also wonder if the queens wait to sting the more mature cells as by that time often the workers seem to have thinned down some areas and especially the tip?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

On March 22nd we had set up a cell builder per Micheal Palmers sustainable queen rearing method. Creating what I now call a Super colony. The following week the weather turned cold. We where scheduled to do some additional preperation for grafting queens on the 26th and 27th before leaving town for the weekend. We where prevented from doing that by the weather as well as makign the grafts the following monday as intended. The weather did not warm up enough to inspect the cell builder until last Sunday 4-6-14. Now if you count the days that is exactly 16 days from the time the builder was started until we where able to do a frame by frame inspection. We counted at least 11 queen cells before we lost track. Many of them had been chewed through the sides. but approx half had emerged. In all we found only one live but very weak queen. we found 3 others dead. So not all of them where killed in the cell by anything. How they where killed I have no idea. But that they where dead is a fact. that the last one woudl have died right where she was is fairly certain. We moved her to a mating compartment and will see how she does. I am not sure any of these virgins will end up surviving.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Emerged virgin queens find each other and fight to the death. They sting each other. That's how they are killed, by one virgin queen stinging the other to death.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Mark, These queens would have been started from brood at every range of age. 6 day span. they where also above a queen excluder and unable to pas through it. The cell builder did a nice job or rearing queens and they where large enough to look already mated. I suspect at least a couple of them died of exhaustion attempting to get through the excluder. That is where we found the one living one. There was another one their that looked freshly dead so maybe it was the looser in you battling it to the death explanation. I am aware that virgins will fight. what I do not know is how these specific virgins died. The tips of the wings on the living one where pretty ragged, I do not know if they are so damaged she will not be able to fly. I do not know if that was caused by fighting or if ti was caused by bees below the excluder trying to pull her through it. That virgins die in just one simple way sounds far to easy for me. I suspect there are many ways they get disposed of. It also dos not account for a hive that will keep multiple virgins and cast multiple swarms in the process. I have been told that if the weather turns bad a colony will keep a virgin in the hive but away from other queens until they can swarm. In all it seems to me the bees are a major player in who lives and who dies, when and how.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If they were virgins I wonder why they couldn't fit through the excluder.

Tattered wings would indicate that worker bees attacked them. I wouldn't assume that worker bees attempted to drag the queens through the excluder.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

It's not a queen's age, or size of her abdomen, that keeps her from passing through a queen excluder, it's that the majority of queens, of any age, have a thorax that is too large to fit through the excluder. The thorax size changes very little, if at all, throughout the adult life of the queen. It is generally queens that are underdeveloped that manage to pass through the excluder, or sometimes excluders may have a faulty spot, where their is unintentionally a slightly wider opening - or a combination of both occurs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Have you ever seen an unmated virgin queen (sorry for the redundancy) that couldn't pass through a queen excluder? I haven't. But I don't constintely watch.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> If they were virgins I wonder why they couldn't fit through the excluder.
> 
> Tattered wings would indicate that worker bees attacked them. I wouldn't assume that worker bees attempted to drag the queens through the excluder.


We moved her to a mating compartment so I will know if she makes it or not. I don't think any of the virgins made it through the excluder. The hive did not swarm. We also found the mated queen below the excluder. I have seen others mention that the winner of a virgin war sometimes does not come out in very good shape.


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## scituatema (Aug 30, 2014)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bees/hivequee.html

http://youtu.be/xRpRG_47chI


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I had one colony of excessively gentle bees that did very little queen killing. Multiple virgins hatched early one year - day 13 1/2. They did not seem the least inclined to fight on another, nor to sting nor to chew queen cells.

Other colonies, notably some of my feistier colonies, have come up on Day 15 while I was delayed elsewhere. In one, I found 5 dead and 1 healthy virgin queen (did not see the fight, but I guessed who won), and in another one virgin was stinging a queen cell as I checked. She had apparently already killed 3 sister queens not long before I spotted her.

It is very likely that Barry has the right idea - different colonies, different strains probably handle the situation differently. This would also explain the non-confirmation of Huber's observations by others.

I suppose also that whether or not the attacking virgin finds a good soft spot, queen cell wax wall thickness, the vigor of the firstborn virgin, and perhaps the length of her sting all have something to do with the method of sistercide, but this remains to be investigated.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Skip to 11:50... or just click on this link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Dtv3OTYt2EM#t=709


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If they were virgins I wonder why they couldn't fit through the excluder.

If smoked hard enough I've seen them get through. I've also seen them get stuck, but in general, as mentioned, it's their thorax that stops them and that does not change size.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

According to the Hive and the honey bee. The newly emerged queen "toots" and the queen in the cell "quacks". Sometimes the new queen just takes a bunch of workers and leaves the hive without killing the other queens. Sometimes she chews a hole in the cell and stings her. If the other queen emerges before the 1st is gone, they will fight to the death.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I've just finished re-reading this entire thread and I have a question on the feasibility of setting up a mating nuc/queen castle. My top bar hives make queen cells on the edges of the combs very nicely when I pull the queen, say about 10-15 on multiple bars. I don't have enough bees to set up a bunch of cell finishers and mating nucs so I wonder if it is possible to take a 5 frame Lang nuc and transfer the 4 or 5 bars with queen cells to it, and separate each bar with #5 hardware cloth (I was going to cut a queen excluder but I read some places they can get through). I would drill a hole in each side of the box to correspond with the bar so the queen could get out and mate, but leave all but one corked closed until after the cells hatch and harden off.

The theory would be that the 4 or 5 queens would be isolated from each other and wouldn't be able to get to the other queen cells to sting them. The workers could pass between the combs to feed all of the queen cells and store any collected pollen and honey. After the queens are mated and laying in the one comb they have available to them, they would be passed on to other beekeepers to make nucs.

This would never work in a colony with frames and Lang boxes. The top bars form the roof for each section. I suppose it could also be done in an 8 or 10 frame box, I just don't have one of them to try it with. I am currently overwintering 2 top bar nucs in 5 frame Lang nucs with a medium box overtop to provide a spot for the syrup jar and/or sugar brick. I know come spring I will have some hives ready to swarm and I thought pulling the bees and comb with queen cells might be a good way to manage them. After the 21-28 days, the hive would get back the comb and worker bees and hopefully feel like they did what they started out to do.


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## scituatema (Aug 30, 2014)

Have a question, do worker bees destroy queen cells if emerged virgin queen does not initiate the process?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

scituatema said:


> Have a question, do worker bees destroy queen cells if emerged virgin queen does not initiate the process?


from what I gather from reading this thread, is that no one is absolutely certain. Worker bees certainly do tear down un-hatched queen larvae but I guess we don't really know if the virgin queen has already marked/stung those cells and the workers just carry out the actual destruction. Workers alone in a queenless hive can tear down an introduced queen cell if they are bent on making their own from eggs in the hive.

My theory on my question above is that the bees that are brought over with the queen cells from my top bar hive were already the workers that were making the queen cells so they would not be inclined to tear them down. In my case, only a hatched virgin queen would be bent on destructions. I'll probably still test my theory this spring, even if I'm told it can't be done, 'cause I'm not sure we have enough evidence/observation to definitively say "who" destroys the cells.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Have a question, do worker bees destroy queen cells if emerged virgin queen does not initiate the process?

The person who seems to have spent the most time watching was Francis Burnens under the direction of Francis Huber. Huber says in other places that all these experiments were done multiple times:

"In one of my hives in particular, there were five or six royal cells, each including a nymph. The eldest first underwent its transformation. Scarcely did ten minutes elapse from the time of this young queen leaving her cradle, when she visited the other royal cells still close. She furiously attacked the nearest; and, by dint of labour, succeeded in opening the top: we saw her tearing the silk of the coccoon with, her teeth; but her efforts were probably inadequate to the object, for she abandoned this end of the cell, and began at the other, where she accomplished a larger aperture. When it was sufficiently enlarged, she endeavoured to introduce her belly, and made many exertions until she succeeded in giving her rival a deadly wound with her sting. Then having left the cell, all the bees that had hitherto been spectators of her labour, began to increase the opening, and drew out the dead body of a queen scarcely come from its envelope of a nymph.

"Meanwhile, the victorious young queen attacked another royal cell, but did not endeavour to introduce her extremity into, it. There was only a royal nymph, and no queen, come to maturity, as in the first cell. In all probability, nymphs of queens inspire their rivals with less animosity; still they do not escape destruction: because, whenever a royal cell has been opened before the proper time, the bees extract the contents in whatever form they may be, whether worm, nymph, or queen. Lastly, the young queen attacked the third cell, but could not succeed in penetrating it. She laboured languidly, and appeared as if exhausted by her first exertions. As we now required queens for some particular experiments, we revolved to remove the other royal cells, yet in safety, to secure them from her fury."

From my observations in my observation hive, I tend to agree with Huber. The queen kills the other queens in their cells and the workers remove them.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

No, if the virgin does not initiate the destruction process then the workers will not go around to
destroy the other queen cells. You see, on a frame of bees not all young larvae will turn into a
queen cell. There a certain groups of young nurse bees that will start these queen cells within the
local frame's area. That is why you see certain cells scattered thru out the frame while other cells stick
together next to each others. The process of how the young nurse bees know which larvae to turn into a 
queen cell is still a mystery to me. It was these localized group of nurse bees that will make, guard and nurture these
queen cells until they have hatched.
In my observation a virgin will go around to try to penetrate these defense system onto the groups of nurse
bees guarding these queen cells. At first these nurse bees would not allow the virgin to go in but eventually have
to give up since they recognized that she is now the future queen. Then the defense was off and the virgin proceeded to bit
the side of the cells one at a time and will stung a few times into the cell. After that the workers finished off by tearing down
the cell. Then the virgin queen will go to the next nearby queen cell repeating her destructive process. As soon as the worker
bees let her in she got the cells. During this process she does not exert great efforts trying to destroy these cells with the assistant
of the worker bees. I've seen 4 localized queen cells on an OTS frame got destroyed this way. I did not intervene either and forgot to take my camera
with me that time on a cell hatch inspection. Wish I did that day.


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