# Top Bar Newspaper Combine



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

First off how long has the TBH been queenless? If it's more than 10 days it will probably contain a new virgin queen and will not accept the queen from the nuc.

The other main issue with that method will be moving the brood nest to the top bars. The bees will preferentially keep the brood nest where it is, in the langstroth frames.

There are several ways to achieve what you want, but first let us know how long the hive has been queenless then we can tell you what best to do.


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## NJBeeVet (Jan 3, 2019)

My one attempt at a top bar combine with newspaper let to massive fighting losses. I've heard others use alot of smoke or essential oil and water spray. I may try that next time


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

Oldtimer said:


> First off how long has the TBH been queenless? If it's more than 10 days it will probably contain a new virgin queen and will not accept the queen from the nuc.
> 
> The other main issue with that method will be moving the brood nest to the top bars. The bees will preferentially keep the brood nest where it is, in the langstroth frames.
> 
> ...


Oldtimer, I can't say with certainty. On 6/4 I only saw a small amount of eggs and on 6/12 I saw no eggs nor did I see any larvae on 6/12. Also on 6/12 there was plenty of capped brood and there were plenty of empty cells for her to lay if she was around but I did not see eggs. On 6/18 I saw emergency QCs on two bars that were fairly far along (or they looked that way to this 2nd year beekeeper). 

Did I miss these QCs on 6/12 - probably, but I can't say with 100% certainty. The operator error (i.e. stupidity) occurred on 6/22 when I transferred a bar to another top bar but had forgotten that the bar I transferred had some queen cells. That evening I went to back to look at the only other bar where I had previously seen emergency QCs and I did not see any so I assume they had torn them down and were banking on the QC that I accidently transferred. This evening I saw no eggs and all backfilling.

It's a bit if a mess to answer your question because it is possible a queen emerged from the bar that I accidently moved on 6/22 before I moved it. That would mean there may in fact still be a virgin or soon to be laying queen in there, but I'm just not sure.....


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

I guess the thing to do would be to put in a frame of eggs and see if they make a QC?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Kevinf said:


> It's a bit if a mess to answer your question


Not at all, the dates you give are very useful.

If there were no eggs or uncapped larvae at 6/12, they would have likely had at least the beginnings of queen cells which means they would have hatched prior to your transfer at 6/22. Which may explain why you did not see cells at the next inspection, the bees tore down the empty cells. (Which they sometimes do soon after, sometimes a long time after).



Kevinf said:


> I guess the thing to do would be to put in a frame of eggs and see if they make a QC?


Yes. It would seem most probable there is some sort of queen in the TBH, but the timing is tight so we can not be 100% sure. Therefore your plan to put some eggs in as a test is a good one.

You will also need to decide, if you do see queen cells on that frame at the next inspection, what you are going to do. Allow them to continue, or, kill them and now you know the hive is queenless, do a combine.


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## ankklackning (Dec 10, 2020)

I've also been thinking about newspaper combines. I hear people quote different numbers of days required to finish the newspaper combine, and wasn't sure if the success rate is different for different number of days to do it? Example; someone says do it over night (approx 1 day), another guy quotes processing it for (3 days), etc... It would be interesting to see if the success rate is better for a more prolonged process. 

Also Hi to Oldtimer!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

ankklackning said:


> Also Hi to Oldtimer!


Thanks 

Re the newspaper combine time, it can often take bees several days to really get started on chewing out the paper, so in my view both one day and three days are way too soon to open the hive and remove the paper.

If the hive is opened at such an early stage the bees will not be fully adapted to each other. A beekeeper may get lucky, if the queen does not move into the other section she will be OK. But if the disturbance of opening the hive causes her to run into unfamiliar bees she will likely be killed.

My view, the bees will remove the paper and start adapting to each other and functioning as one hive even if the beekeeper never removes the paper. So, why rush. Unless there is some pressing reason, in my view the hive should not be disturbed for a couple of weeks.

Not to say a person might not get away with less, but over many hives, you will get maximum success leaving it a longer period. Especially if the queenless unit has laying workers in which case my recommendation is 3 weeks.


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## ankklackning (Dec 10, 2020)

Thanks very much.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

on a newspaper combine, I have never went in in less than 10 days.
So I cannot offer what it looks like going in sooner.

GG


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## ankklackning (Dec 10, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> on a newspaper combine, I have never went in in less than 10 days.
> So I cannot offer what it looks like going in sooner.
> 
> GG


Thanks. I like that you want to avoid being chancy. No point in taking on more risk.


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

Thanks to all. I will first put in a frame of eggs and see if they draw QCs. 

Just curious though if I do end up doing the combine - the queen and bees I bring over from the nuc will not have an entrance. Is that a problem? i can provide them with one if necessary.

I will make sure they have a frame of food, but they will otherwise be confined until they meet their new sisters.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Kevinf said:


> Thanks to all. I will first put in a frame of eggs and see if they draw QCs.
> 
> Just curious though if I do end up doing the combine - the queen and bees I bring over from the nuc will not have an entrance. Is that a problem? i can provide them with one if necessary.
> 
> I will make sure they have a frame of food, but they will otherwise be confined until they meet their new sisters.


if you have a notched inner cover, it works. or a rim 1/2 inch on 3 sides, also works.

GG


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## ankklackning (Dec 10, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> if you have a notched inner cover, it works. or a rim 1/2 inch on 3 sides, also works.
> 
> GG


Thank you.


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

I added a small frame of eggs on Tuesday afternoon. When would it be safe to see if they are drawing queen cells so that I know whether I need to do the combine?

Thanks,
Kevin


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes. Make sure to look for even beginner queen cells also.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Kevinf said:


> I added a small frame of eggs on Tuesday afternoon. When would it be safe to see if they are drawing queen cells so that I know whether I need to do the combine?
> 
> Thanks,
> Kevin


they cap the QC at day 8, it is an egg for 3, so 5 days after the egg placement, they could be capped. and 12 days after the placement they could hatch, so if you wish to split off some cells do it before the day 12, else look when ever even after hatching and mateing. Depends on the next step...

GG


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

Checked the frame of eggs today and have 6+ QCs. I’ve decide to not do the combine but will try to bouillon this one up. Still plenty of drones but our flow is over. May require a frame of brood or two and lots of feeding but willing to give it a go. Thanks to all for your help. I’ll be ready for a future combine.

kevin


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

I’m thinking a bit downfield and now think I might want to move the newly emerged queen to another robust colony that currently has a second year queen. At the same time, I would like to keep the second year queen but simply move her to the nuc from where I will take the newly emerged queen. Effectively, I just want to transfer these two queens between their respective colonies.

Is the best way to do this by doing a simultaneous newspaper combine in each colony?

Thanks,
Kevin


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The best way to do it would be a cage and release of each queen. 
But second year queens if raised properly are mostly just as good as first year queens. You also describe the hive with the second year queen as robust, so if it isn't broken why fix it


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

Thanks, Oldtimer. I know that there are no absolutes in beekeeping, but my understanding is that an older queen is "more likely" to swarm if she overwinters. Lots of debate on that, I know. This one obviously did but by the slimmest of margins. I thought that by putting a late summer queen in the larger colony it would potentially get them off to a flying start next year assuming she overwinters, as well. The older queen would be kept as back up.

I wish I could say I was confident that I could cage the queen but capturing her is a skill I have not attempted. That would make me nervous which, in part, why I was suggesting the newspaper combine.

Kevin


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## FriscoDad (Dec 7, 2020)

Can someone explain the mechanics of a newspaper combine in a top bar hive? Where do you put the newspaper, and how do you get it to separate the two colonies you’re trying to combine?

in a langstroth, you just put the paper between two boxes and it makes a complete seal. In a top bar it’s one long box. Even with my follower board, it never makes a bee-tight seal, and bees are able to pass through.


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## ankklackning (Dec 10, 2020)

FriscoDad said:


> Can someone explain the mechanics of a newspaper combine in a top bar hive? Where do you put the newspaper, and how do you get it to separate the two colonies you’re trying to combine?
> 
> in a langstroth, you just put the paper between two boxes and it makes a complete seal. In a top bar it’s one long box. Even with my follower board, it never makes a bee-tight seal, and bees are able to pass through.


Well this is one of the disadvantages of a top bar hive and for long hives in general. They aren't built well for compatibility, or for combines, nor for overwintering. I'm sure someone will disagree with that, and I'm not saying that they can't. I'm just saying they don't do it as well as langstroth. This is why people have stuck with langstroth designs for over a hundred years.

But...don't worry there is a way to work this out. And hopefully I haven't offended you.

Technically you could just do the box you want to combine into above the top bar hive. You'd still have to do the newspaper flat horizontal however. Trying to do a vertical newspaper combine won't work because you are going against gravity. And you want to remember you aren't leaving it like this forever, just for a few days. Then after day 4, 5, or whatever it takes, etc then you can remove the box on top that's involved with the combine.

So to get this to work, you might need some flat wood shim sections to seal up any cracks etc. This is particularly the case for the top box because they more than likely came from a different environment and now the combine may stress them. So try to line up the box on top of the top bar hive as best you can. If there are gaps or not enough space this is where you would use wooden flat pieces and put them in as best you can. (Might want a saw, and/or drill with screws. But I've done stuff like this all the time using these extra flat scrap piece woods as adapters (but I don't usually do it with a top bar hive, but I do it often w custom non-conforming equipment). It may depend on what your top bar hive designs lid design is to tell if that will have to have some other scraps used with it... and unfortunately hive designs for top bars tend to have a higher chance for being custom material. (This is also why top bar hive lids should be considered to be 2 piece side by side lids, for stuff like combines, or when you have to do something like a feeding shim above and don't want everything open, etc.)

Either way I've done stuff like this. It can work. But it sometimes takes more than 3 days if one of the hives is kind of weak.

I would NOT try to push their adjustment early. Just let it happen naturally. I've had them fighting on day 3 before, but most people say end of 2nd day/start of 3rd day is when they should accept. This is why you have to just let it go smoothly. But what you can do is if they aren't making progress chewing through the newspaper on beginning of day 4 when you peek, then you can dribble sugar water (not too runny, not too thick) on top of the newspaper to get them chewing on it faster. I would NOT do this before day 3 however.

A lot of people do knive slits in the newspaper initially. But people have had trouble with that. So its probably good to take it slow and easy.

As far as asking about how to keep them separate, it works just naturally as long as there isn't gaps in the newspaper between the top and bottom boxes between the newspaper. Don't have breaks, let them work for it.

You are going to have to use adapter shim slats of some kind. And you'll have to do your own measurements and cutting. It can still work, but you want to check it several times before you just leave it, because what often happens is you'll later find there is some gap somewhere that bees may have an exposed section on. (Its robbing season now too!)

You will want to consider having a feeder in the smaller section being combined. But this depends on how stable it is and if its been working on its own first.

Helps; keep wood scraps around to use as adapter shims! Screws and a drill may help, or some tie downs or heavy bricks to keep the 2 boxes pushed together hard to seal up gaps. Feeder helps for insurance, but not necessary.


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

FriscoDad, while I did not end up doiing the newspaper combine I would have simply taken an empty top bar and placed it at the end of the colony that was in the host hive. Then drape 2-3 sheets of newspaper over the bar so that the newspaper hangs into the hive body. Then cut and tape the newspaper to the sidewalls and bottom. Spritz the newspaper with water and decide if you want to put in a couple 2"-3" slits in the paper to help the process a bit.

Kevin


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

FriscoDad said:


> Can someone explain the mechanics of a newspaper combine in a top bar hive? Where do you put the newspaper, and how do you get it to separate the two colonies you’re trying to combine?
> 
> in a langstroth, you just put the paper between two boxes and it makes a complete seal. In a top bar it’s one long box. Even with my follower board, it never makes a bee-tight seal, and bees are able to pass through.


If you have any sense ... you don't bother with newspaper.

If the Top Bar Hive you're referring to is a horizontal hive (not all of them are, despite people frequently making that assumption), then take a spare 'follower' board - you did make a couple of spares when building your hive, didn't you ?? - and cut a large hole in one, which you can then cover with wire mesh. An eight inch hole will provide fifty square inches of 'contact area' (an eleven inch hole provides nearly one hundred) - and with such a large area of contact with the adjacent colony, there will be precious little motivation for bees to squeeze through gaps at the side or bottom of that division board. However, if large gaps *should* be present (one wonders why ?), then block them off with temporary battens.

Suggest you don't limit yourself by attempting to replicate beekeeping practices which have been adopted for a completely different style of beehive. 
'best,
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ankklackning said:


> Well this is one of the disadvantages of a top bar hive and for long hives in general. They aren't built well for compatibility, or for combines, nor for overwintering. I'm sure someone will disagree with that, and I'm not saying that they can't. I'm just saying they don't do it as well as langstroth. This is why people have stuck with langstroth designs for over a hundred years.


Clearly you don't exactly know much about the long hives (in many respects).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

FriscoDad said:


> Can someone explain the mechanics of a newspaper combine in a top bar hive? Where do you put the newspaper, and how do you get it to separate the two colonies you’re trying to combine?


You trivially hang the newspaper *vertically *between the colonies - no complete seal is necessary in most cases to bother with it.
This is what I have done and it works (except that I did not even need to do that - thinking back).

This entire idea of a complete seal between the combined colonies is un-necessary (be it paper or whatever).

Lately, if I bother at all, I simply put a dummy frame between the colonies to be combined (later I remove the dummy frame).
As well a piece of cloth also work for the same.


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## maniago (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> You trivially hang the newspaper *vertically *between the colonies - no complete seal is necessary in most cases to bother with it.
> This is what I have done and it works (except that I did not even need to do that - thinking back).
> 
> This entire idea of a complete seal between the combined colonies is un-necessary (be it paper or whatever).
> ...



I need to do a combing in a Layens hive, and you seem to be the only one on this thread that has a clue about a horizontal combine. So, could you expound a bit more please...For example, I'm assuming I kill off one of the queens, drop all the added colonies frames in to the hive, add the paper between them, and let them all go thru one (ie the same) entrance? Do you feed them during this time? Do you smoking them all or sugar water-misting them all to throw their scents out of wack so they combine w/o fighting? After they combine, do you go back and combine the individual brood nests or just let them sort that out?
Thanks for any info!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

maniago said:


> I need to do a combing in a Layens hive, and you seem to be the only one on this thread that has a clue about a horizontal combine. So, could you expound a bit more please...For example, I'm assuming I kill off one of the queens, drop all the added colonies frames in to the hive, add the paper between them, and let them all go thru one (ie the same) entrance? Do you feed them during this time? Do you smoking them all or sugar water-misting them all to throw their scents out of wack so they combine w/o fighting? After they combine, do you go back and combine the individual brood nests or just let them sort that out?
> Thanks for any info!


Before talking of a combine, it is important to establish one important context - are you in dearth or not?
You should be attune with what is going on in your area.

If dearth, then precautions are needed.
If in a flow - not really.

A couple of weeks ago I combined two colonies in a long hive (one was suspected queen-less; I did not want to spend time on it - hence simply combined).
I simply pulled the divider between the two colonies - smoked the bees - moved frames together - closed and done. 
None of the dancing is required. 
None of the pile of dead bees - people talk about.
The two colonies combined are now working together very well (both are still using their own entrance - but the stronger queen-right entrance is the primary).
Why?
Because we have continuous good flow (through most of the entire summer).

As for you (assuming the worst scenario): 

kill the queen (optional - hopefully you know which queen you need to terminate for a good reason)
insert the paper, just loosely drape it over the last resident frame all way down
-- (paper is optional - this is to only facilitate that the bees face each other gradually; may slice the paper through 2-3 times with a knife) 
-- notice that smoking/misting them is not really necessary when doing the paper; but it will not hurt; 
-- in fact, you can optionally spray the paper itself with sugar water and the bees from both sides will just cut through it faster.

insert the incoming frames next to the resident frames (separated by paper)
by default, I'd force the incoming colony to be using the entrance of the existing colony - again, they will combine faster as they have motivation.
-- but in my example above, I let them use separate entrance - because they were already used to it and we are in a flow - why slow them down?

feed? - this is irrelevant to the process of combine, especially mid-flow
combine brood-nests later? - no, who has the time?; you do want the incoming brood-nest immediately next to the resident colony.

So again, all the horror story about terrible combines are happening because people are not attune to the environment.
Then they do all kinds for stupid things because they don't pay attention to the very basics - know your local seasons and know what is going on at any given time.

As well, the context of the colony sizes is important.
You did not specify - but that is an important detail.
The worst possible thing is to combine two strong colonies in dearth - take all the precautions.
On the opposite end - combine of two weak colonies mid-flow - a total no-brainer - just put them together and walk away.
For example, right now with working the nucs (mini or regular) - I simply put the frames with bees together however it is best for me - mix/match however (shake/dump the bees on the top too) - optionally give them some smoke OR get them wet - close and walk away. 

People talk about smoking bees during combine as if it is a special feature.
Well, don't you smoke the bees anyway?
Nothing special about it.
You open them and you smoke them - combine or no combine.

In the summer I routinely use spray bottle as a complement/replacement for smoker.
So if that what I have (some bees don't even need smoke) - I will liberally spray the bees wet to keep them down just as I work them.
Again, it is routine and nothing special about it.
I open the bees and I wet them - this is not a special combine feature. 

I never use anything smelly (extra hassle to do and think about).


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

ankklackning said:


> Trying to do a vertical newspaper combine won't work because you are going against gravity.


I've been giving this newspaper-combine within a top-bar hive some thought - and I reckon it could be fairly straightforward - all you need is a staple-gun, or a dozen drawing-pins (thumb-tacks) in order to thwart gravity.

So - move the bars of your existing colony up towards one end of the hive. Then, take a sheet of newspaper which is slightly wider than the top of the hive, and slightly longer than it's depth.

Hang that sheet over the end bar, folding the top inch back and onto the top of that end bar, securing it in place with a staple/tack at both ends and one in the middle.

If the hive has a solid floor, then again secure the bottom of the sheet to the floor with three staples/tacks - one each towards the hive walls and one in the middle. Likewise attach the sheet to the hive walls in a similar manner. If you have a mesh floor, then you'll need to hold the sheet down onto the mesh with a batten of some sort instead. Then. simply install the incoming top-bars up against that sheet of newspaper.

I also think this technique could be used with frames in a horizontal hive having non-touching top-bars, provided a soft inner cover is placed directly on top of those frames.

Not as simple as a newspaper-combine in a vertical stack - that's for sure - but still do-able providing you have appropriate entrance positioning.
LJ


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## maniago (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Before talking of a combine, it is important to establish one important context - are you in dearth or not?
> You should be attune with what is going on in your area....................


Thanks man. This is all super helpful and the expounding I was looking for. Yes dearth is coming shortly late this month, so I'm looking to do this in sept when we get some of the late flowers back. I'm not yet sure I need to do it, just preparing myself. They might supersede the queen themselves, IDK. Just watching and waiting for now.


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