# Just the facts, how aggressive are Russian bees.



## David ryle (Dec 2, 2020)

In reality just how aggressive are Russians, I'm not talking about crosses, I specifically want to know about the temperament of Russian bees from accredited stock. Thanks in advance.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In my experience Russian bees are not that consistent in most of their traits. Some are nice enough. Some not. Most will follow a bit further and head butt more. They may or may not sting more.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

David ryle said:


> In reality just how aggressive are Russians, I'm not talking about crosses, I specifically want to know about the temperament of *Russian bees from accredited stock.* Thanks in advance.


The Russian bees are unstable mutts - they are not even considered a breed in the place they came from.

The most pure Russian bees are mutts already - by definition.
So the very first round of open mating will out-cross what is already a mutt.
What kind of consistency you want from an inherently unstable mutt out-crossed 2-3 times?

Here is a sample l got directly from the Russian Far East - these are true Primorsky bees - already some messed up mutt as it is. They can not produce much predictability about anything to speak of - can be anywhere from A to Z on most any trait.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

David ryle said:


> In reality just how aggressive are Russians, I'm not talking about crosses, I specifically want to know about the temperament of Russian bees from accredited stock. Thanks in advance.


I just have a few, so very limited experience. No difference whatsoever with Italians I've had. But I remember Dad having some bees that hybridized our feral black bees. They would hit you 15' from the hive, so I know hybridization can go awry. 

That said, I'm giving them a whirl and thus far I likey.....


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If Russians were any advantage, they would not be hard to find and people would not be willing to have their socks stapled to their ankles to reap their supposed benefit. If you feel you need to know, by all means get them!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very informative post Greg much thanks .


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

My Russians chased me from the bee yard day 1. Now my favorite hive and most productive by far. There are solutions for defensive hives. Started using cover kitchen sack cloths to cover boxes and a quiet box for frames removed. What a difference. Keeping their stress down and covering their stores has made them enjoyable to be around. 

I dislike frame rests intensely and will avoid resting a frame against a hive unless its very brief.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Plus or minus 40 hives of varying degrees of Rus purity originating from certified breeders.
T-shirt and veil.Occasional sting or two.Most always my fault.

We had a saying in the tree business." Most accidents are caused by operator error"


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Michael Bush said:


> In my experience Russian bees are not that consistent in most of their traits. Some are nice enough. Some not


This makes a lot of sense. My sample size was 3 queens from Coy’s. Everything else descended from those. Mutts or not, when our son had a few friends down after graduation, several of these kids stood in my yard, passing frames, looking for queens and such. No one was wearing gear (some in shorts) and I’m reasonably sure I didn’t light a smoker. I told them to follow the 2 rules I’ve known for decades, don’t breathe directly on them, don’t make very sudden movements.

This particular evening we were only in nucs, so not breaking apart boxes of strong double deeps or anything. A half dozen kids standing in the flight path of several colonies. One kid received one sting. Before they left one guy was petting workers on a landing board “who’s a good bee, you are” sort of stuff

That said, it makes complete sense that I got 3 from the gentle side, and that daughters were gentle as well. The inspector remarked that he thought Russians were supposed to be mean. He later joked with Jay (east TN inspector who runs Russians) that Jay must have been lying about his own bees temperament.

So honestly it may be a crap shoot. I was struggling to keep Italians alive through 2 winters. I love Italians for laying so many eggs they can adjust for my stupidity. But I’m trying something different. My reasoning was trying to get stock with some resistance to pestilence. If this doesn’t work I’ll keep learning/trying/adjusting.




Jack Grimshaw said:


> T-shirt and veil.Occasional sting or two.Most always my fault.
> 
> We had a saying in the tree business." Most accidents are caused by operator error"


If there had been a double-like button I would have hit it.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Tom Rinderer and Steven Coy published a book last year about Russia Honey Bees. I believe Rinderer was an LSU researcher that was one of the founders of the Russian Honey Bee Breeding Association. Coy may be a founding member as well. He breeds Russian queens in Mississippi now. It came out in early 2020, about the time the pandemic hit and I was desperate for reading material. It is well written and very informative. The eBook version (Kindle) is only $9.99 on Amazon. Well worth the money if you are interested in Russian honey bees.









Russian Honey Bees: Rinderer, Thomas E., Coy, Steven E.: 9781655328138: Amazon.com: Books


Buy Russian Honey Bees on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders



www.amazon.com


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Vance G said:


> If Russians were any advantage, they would not be hard to find and people would not be willing to have their socks stapled to their ankles to reap their supposed benefit. If you feel you need to know, by all means get them!


As I posted just above, the variability of Russians is all way from A to Z.
Well, variability of ANY mutt is A to Z - this is NOT a Russian problem.
This is a mutt problem (which applies to most bees in the US).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

LAlldredge said:


> Started using cover kitchen sack cloths to cover boxes and a quiet box for frames removed.


Exactly.
People around here are too spoiled with the Italians and Carnis and get away with opeining a hive in shorts (and brag about it too). Then Russians have a bad rep for being "hot" (granted, they are highly variable).
Well, it takes few common sense steps to not have riled up bees; these work in most cases.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

psm1212 said:


> The eBook version (Kindle) is only $9.99 on Amazon. Well worth the money if you are interested in Russian honey bees


Thanks for posting this again! I had totally forgotten about buying it a while back (when I believe it was you who brought it up). I did the $9.99 with the free cloud reader (browser). Lot of good information. I’m out for 2 weeks with covid. Now I can finish it.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

No real experience with Russians yet. Got certified queens from a breeder in Iowa and installed them in late June/early July 2020. By the time most of the bees were offspring from the queen, my season was winding down. They did buzz and fly around me more than other strains, but no stinging. Multiple queen cells were a common sight during inspections, and I did find a few hives with 2 queens in them towards the end of the season, mid to late September. Left it as is. Haven't really checked on them since very early December.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Russians live up to their reputation.

I generally have 1 or 2 bees chase me 50 ft away in the dearth, it's a problem.

I didn't buy official USDA stock. These came from a Russian (has Family in Russia etc etc) beekeeper.


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## GregH (Aug 4, 2016)

I had a buddy that wanted to get into bees so he bought him a Russian hive for his first hive. He wanted me to come over and look at them with him about 2 months after he bought them. After I looked at them with him he ask me what I thought. I told him if they were mine they would be dead before dark. They were the meanest bee I had ever been around at that time, they would chase you 200 yards for no reason. There are to many good gentle bees out there for sale why would anyone want to put up with something that mean I see no advantage to a mean hive. Also if they are mean you are not going to go into the box and look as much as you should.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

This is what is so strange with beekeepers experiences with Russians, some have bad experiences, others have good ones. Mine have always been gentile, even after 2 or 3 years of supersedure or swarming and requeening.

This past spring our beekeeping association bought packages with Russian queens with the agreement that if the purchaser was not happy with their attitude the queen could be exchanged for an Italian. Out of the 70 or more that bought Russians only three requested the exchange. The club president replaced the queens with Italians, and took the Russians that were removed and used them in his own hives. He worked those colonies with the "hot" queens for the rest of the season using short sleeves and no vail.

The packages were supplied by a member of the Russian Queen Breeders Association located in Mississippi.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

David ryle said:


> In reality just how aggressive are Russians, I'm not talking about crosses, I specifically want to know about the temperament of Russian bees from accredited stock. Thanks in advance.


I purchased my queens from a RQBA member about 6 years ago and after they overwintered I grafted from the strongest hives. They are good bees that fill supers and overwinter great. A few hives have been a bit feisty but certainly not bad.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AR Beekeeper said:


> This is what is so strange with beekeepers experiences with Russians, some have bad experiences, others have good ones.


I am trying to get a point across - this is exactly what expected of the Russians - the variability.
Nothing strange.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

MJC417 said:


> I purchased my queens from a RQBA member about 6 years ago and after they overwintered I grafted from the strongest hives. They are good bees that fill supers and overwinter great. A few hives have been a bit feisty but certainly not bad.


I have 3 Russian hives and this is my first winter beekeeping. Do you notice their cluster being small? All 3 of my hives are tiny but they are stable. They have plenty of reserves and I keep them in insulated nucs. Is that a trait? Or something else.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Struttinbuck said:


> Is that a trait? Or something else


Some of mine are late splits that had no more bees than you could have fit tightly in a softball. We haven’t really had any winter until this week (2 odd nights at 15F). Yes, that is a trait they are known for. Even my strong hives don’t have a ton of bees, but so far they are alive. It will likely take them an extra cycle to explode their population, but they are frugal and survive on less in winter. 

I talked with a local man who told me 3-4 years ago that a softball was what to expect in winter. I’m glad I knew this as it’s a little jarring to open a hive and Dec and not see a large population.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

That's what I was hoping. That's exactly how these look. About a softball cluster. I'm certainly not concerned about food for them.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Some of mine are late splits that had no more bees than you could have fit tightly in a softball. We haven’t really had any winter until this week (2 odd nights at 15F). Yes, that is a trait they are known for. Even my strong hives don’t have a ton of bees, but so far they are alive. It will likely take them an extra cycle to explode their population, but they are frugal and survive on less in winter.
> 
> I talked with a local man who told me 3-4 years ago that a softball was what to expect in winter. I’m glad I knew this as it’s a little jarring to open a hive and Dec and not see a large population.


I will take that deal alllllllll day!


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

It has been my experience that Rus bees do overwinter in a smaller cluster and are very frugal in their consumption of winter stores.
However,the population seems to explode on the first major pollen flow(red and silver maple) so be aware!


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> seems to explode on the first major pollen flow(red and silver maple) so be aware


Thanks Jack! I figured they would have to make a decent-sized brood cycle emerge before they would have the heat to warm a brood explosion. But I plan to start splitting pre-explosion if possible. I’ll keep my eye on them, and it’s good advice for the OP and others.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Do you notice their cluster being small


Russians overwinter in small clusters, yes.


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## David ryle (Dec 2, 2020)

Thankyou everyone for their responses, across the board pretty much what I've experienced this previous summer. Purchased half a dozen Russian nucs from an apiary here in Wisconsin. I was surprised at the visual variability of the stocks, really different markings from one stock to the next.
I've seen this variability before in other livestock, specifically, sheep, livestock geneticists refer to this I believe as a 'landrace'. I'm used to Carniolans, but after the last few years and variable success and failure I decided to try something new.
Initially the temperament was all over the place, sometimes coming right at you when you've barely got the top off, and others as calm and as easy to manipulate as you could imagine. One thing that has shown consistency regardless of which stock I'm working with, going slower than usual and being a little more careful removing frames, seems to knock down the head butting and inclinations to sting. Their defensive characteristics are a little closer to the surface trigger-wise.
Re-queened in early September from an accredited apiary in Iowa so I'll see what happens this coming spring. So far though, I'm happy with them.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

David ryle said:


> Thankyou everyone for their responses, across the board pretty much what I've experienced this previous summer. Purchased half a dozen Russian nucs from an apiary here in Wisconsin. I was surprised at the visual variability of the stocks, really different markings from one stock to the next.
> I've seen this variability before in other livestock, specifically, sheep, livestock geneticists refer to this I believe as a 'landrace'. I'm used to Carniolans, but after the last few years and variable success and failure I decided to try something new.
> Initially the temperament was all over the place, sometimes coming right at you when you've barely got the top off, and others as calm and as easy to manipulate as you could imagine. One thing that has shown consistency regardless of which stock I'm working with, going slower than usual and being a little more careful removing frames, seems to knock down the head butting and inclinations to sting. Their defensive characteristics are a little closer to the surface trigger-wise.
> Re-queened in early September from an accredited apiary in Iowa so I'll see what happens this coming spring. So far though, I'm happy with them.


As I am sure was pointed out before but unless you bought AI stock you got mutts. 
I think just about every stock no matter what kind is still going to have some differences between each queen.
Some need a little more smoke then others... as a general saying


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Agreed. Most "russians" are mutts.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Tigger19687 said:


> As I am sure was pointed out before but unless you bought AI stock you got mutts.
> I think just about every stock no matter what kind is still going to have some differences between each queen.
> Some need a little more smoke then others... as a general saying


Not true. Certified breeders do not use II. (Instrumental Insemination).
They use isolated mating yards and are required to maintain a minimum number of colonies.

Read this link:








History and Organization


The idea of a Russian Bee Breeders Association was conceived in the late 1990s. Members of the USDA Agricultural Research Service Baton Rouge bee lab and industry cooperators foresaw the...



www.russianbreeder.org





And this:

From: Selection & Certification

"Once all data is collected and evaluated at the end of a monitoring period emerging workers from the most highly rated colonies are tested by the USDA-ARS Honey Bee Genetics and Physiology Lab in Baton Rouge, LA for genetic purity."


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

username00101 said:


> Agreed. Most "russians" are mutts.


All honey bees in the US are mutts.

" Europeans brought honey bees to North America hundreds of years ago. Consequently, the honey bees that we use mostly descend from European races of honey bees. I say “mostly” because we do have one African race of honey bee in the Americas. This is the “killer” bee of lore – Apis mellifera scutellata. The various races of western honey bees can hybridize with one another. To be fair and accurate, we no longer have European races of honey bees in the U.S. Instead, the bees we use are derived from purposeful and/or natural breeding between the various European races that were introduced into the U.S. I like to use the designations “European-derived” or “African-derived” honey bees when discussing the bees we have in the U.S. After all, they are no longer European or African! The lines maintained from the original or subsequent introductions of honey bees into the U.S. can be considered “stocks.” "

From : Stocks of Bees in the United States - American Bee Journal


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## Easy living (Feb 9, 2021)

I have no problems with the Russians. I like them because they are winter hardy I winter and double nuc boxes so only 8 frames they make it out of winter yes they cluster real small about the size of a softball. I'm starting to breed my Russian Queens with carniolan drones flooding the bee yard with the carniolans I like this hybrid the best


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> All honey bees in the US are mutts.
> 
> " Europeans brought honey bees to North America hundreds of years ago. Consequently, the honey bees that we use mostly descend from European races of honey bees. I say “mostly” because we do have one African race of honey bee in the Americas. This is the “killer” bee of lore – Apis mellifera scutellata. The various races of western honey bees can hybridize with one another. To be fair and accurate, we no longer have European races of honey bees in the U.S. Instead, the bees we use are derived from purposeful and/or natural breeding between the various European races that were introduced into the U.S. I like to use the designations “European-derived” or “African-derived” honey bees when discussing the bees we have in the U.S. After all, they are no longer European or African! The lines maintained from the original or subsequent introductions of honey bees into the U.S. can be considered “stocks.” "
> 
> From : Stocks of Bees in the United States - American Bee Journal


Dont tell Sue Colby or New River honey bees. Now that the honey bee is going extinct, mating yards away from other bee keepers is considered isolated. I do not doubt it a bit. Everything we are having to do now to keep the bees alive is all corporate worlds fault. That and genetic modification of everything from viruses to gold fish to pig people.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Struttinbuck said:


> Dont tell Sue Colby or New River honey bees.


Sue and Jason (who gets his breeders and semen from Sue) make no representation that the bees are a* pure* line. Caucasians and the NWC are by their nature mutts. They are just mutts that can be reproduced. Same goes for the Buckfast bees. They are a particular combination of other races and traits.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

JWPalmer said:


> Sue and Jason (who gets his breeders and semen from Sue) make no representation that the bees are a* pure* line. Caucasians and the NWC are by their nature mutts. They are just mutts that can be reproduced. Same goes for the Buckfast bees. They are a particular combination of other races and traits.


Maybe not. But still , Sue Colbys Carnicas came from drone semen from over in Germany and Slovenia. Then she bred them to Carnicas over here. They are very close to being pure Carnis. Same with the Caucasions. Their traits and characteristics are very close to the originals. Sue has the whole story of her breeding program posted for anyone to read. And I wish I didnt mention New River because its hard enough getting queens from that guy. LOL.
And yea I am bias. I got 6 carnis ordered. Virgins ,but still, I have some Caucasions Im going to put some drone combs in.


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## ToddFiala (Dec 23, 2010)

The Russian queens that I have bought from Coy Bee Company seem about the same aggresiveness as anything else I have tried. I have some hives are next to my driveway and near the house where my kids play and ride their bicycles and tricycles and they might get stung once a year. They do get more aggressive during queen rearing activities like when I make a cell starter/builder queenless and crowded. But I am sure any bee will tell you under those conditions, "it changes you man!"


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## Bluto (Feb 19, 2017)

Dan Conlon of the Russian Honey bee beeeders association will be speaking to a group of Tennessee bee clubs March 9, 2021. It is a zoom, but will also simulcast on Facebook live. If you can grab a seat on the zoom, he will be available for Q&A after his talk.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Struttinbuck said:


> And I wish I didnt mention New River because its hard enough getting queens from that guy. LOL.
> And yea I am bias. I got 6 carnis ordered. Virgins ,but still, I have some Caucasions Im going to put some drone combs in.


I have two of Jason's Republic of Georgia Caucasian production queens ordered also. Next year I will be buying one of his breeders, but not sure if it will be a NWC or Caucasian yet. Want to see how the production queens perform.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Struttinbuck said:


> I have 3 Russian hives and this is my first winter beekeeping. Do you notice their cluster being small? All 3 of my hives are tiny but they are stable. They have plenty of reserves and I keep them in insulated nucs. Is that a trait? Or something else.


They definitely go into winter with small clusters, it may be a trait but I don't feed in the fall so that they don't build up a large winter cluster. I don't wrap or insulate nucs and hives. I monitor mites and treat accordingly.


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## Gir (Oct 6, 2016)

A friend had Russians, they were amazing! They were nice and incredible producers of everything! That's all he uses now.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

It was low 60sF today and everyone was hitting pollen sub. As I walked through the hives a worker bounced off the bridge of my nose. I said, "Don't do this after me telling everyone how well-behaved you all are". She flew off and didn't sting me.


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## dleemc1 (Dec 31, 2012)

David ryle said:


> In reality just how aggressive are Russians, I'm not talking about crosses, I specifically want to know about the temperament of Russian bees from accredited stock. Thanks in advance.


their not for me, or people who buy queens from me.


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

I'm not familiar with Russian bees. Are they the same as Caucasians? Here are a few older books that include information on races of bees. Diggs is Chapter VI and Dadant is Chapter 1. I personally stay with reputable companies within California when requeening. They're best adapted for this part of the US. Knock on wood, no aggressive bees for 3 years.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

JWPalmer said:


> I have two of Jason's Republic of Georgia Caucasian production queens ordered also. Next year I will be buying one of his breeders, but not sure if it will be a NWC or Caucasian yet. Want to see how the production queens perform.


Anything that guy has in his bee yard is golden. I consider him the Sue Colby of the east.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

joebeewhisperer said:


> It was low 60sF today and everyone was hitting pollen sub. As I walked through the hives a worker bounced off the bridge of my nose. I said, "Don't do this after me telling everyone how well-behaved you all are". She flew off and didn't sting me.


She'll getcha next time.


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## Timokha (Jan 31, 2016)

David ryle said:


> In reality just how aggressive are Russians, I'm not talking about crosses, I specifically want to know about the temperament of Russian bees from accredited stock. Thanks in advance.


I lived in central Russia for 17 years. I had so called Mid-Russian bees. yes, they are aggressive. I kept them in my moms garden. Had to built 6 foot tall wooden fence in front of the hives(30 feet away) to make them take off up and not attack people walking along the street. Always worked in rubber boots, rubber thick gloves and put a hat under the veil. When mid-russians attack they hit first and then drill literally the rubber gloves until they get to your skin. WHen you move your hand above open hive they jump on your hand like mad dogs by dozen. The other commenter right. No body breeds them. They are honey bees but they mate as they want. They work also like crazy. In Tulskaya oblast(it is 60 miles south from Moscow) Summer is rainy. We had only two weeks of good weather. A lot of wild flowers. We harvested 70-100 pounds from one 24 frame hive(two 12 frame deeps datant style) boy those boxes are heavy. 😫
Never had problems with trespassers an day time though 😃 One summer we(me and three more beekeepers) were in fields with our bees for that season. One drunk villager was walking by. I was on duty that day warned him to change his rote. He said that he does not afrade of bees. So they smelled him and chased him for about 300 feet through the forest. 🤣 I told him. These bees are also very quick for robbery. Have to be fast working with them. Open only three frames at a time. use A lot of smoke. Now in the states I enjoy Italian, carniolan, carnica.
Yes, mid-russians winter well. I lost usually not more that 10% of my colonies. temperatures are -20-30celcius below. In a wooden shed. Main thing - now wind, dark. Fed them starting august 5, finish no later than september 7 approx 9 gallons of sugar syrup. it was enough till april.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Struttinbuck said:


> Dont tell Sue Colby or New River honey bees. Now that the honey bee is going extinct, mating yards away from other bee keepers is considered isolated. I do not doubt it a bit. Everything we are having to do now to keep the bees alive is all corporate worlds fault. That and genetic modification of everything from viruses to gold fish to pig people.


It may be the corporate world's fault, but a very large population of mutt bees on my island died out rapidly once the mites arrived. Those feral mutts were varying mixtures of italian, caucasian, black bee and carniolan. All of which were originally imported by beekeepers over about 150 years.
We now have some wonderful bees, productive and extremely gentle. They also do not go crazy with their brood rearing if left to their own devices, IOW not fed to stimulate brood rearing.
I haven't met her, but I know that Sue Colby and AI were involved in the development of the modern Hawaiian bees. Imports of bees are not allowed, but over a number of years drone semen was imported for the AI program. I really have nothing bad to say about the product created by the AI program.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Timokha said:


> I lived in central Russia for 17 years. I had so called Mid-Russian bees. yes, they are aggressive.


Timokha, please don't confuse people more than they already are.

Mid-Russians are A. m. mellifera (somewhat pure or still hybrids with Caucasians/Carpathica).
I know about these bees enough.

The Russians in the US are imported Primorsky bees that are by default hybrids of AMM/Ukrainian/Caucasian/Italian (maybe Carpathica)
(Мы тут говорим про Дальневосточных пчел - не Среднерусских).


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Also keep in mind that Russia is a big country - one could go to Ukraine, and buy some Russian bees, or somewhere around the Caspian sea. That's technically "Russian bees", but that's like saying "American bees". It's a BIG COUNTRY.

When I got the "Russian" from Kelley bees, they shared no characteristics with the true Russians I had purchased from Russian beekeepers..

One would be wise NOT to work an "authentic Russian" without a full suit. Those ones were a liability issue.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> When I got the "Russian" from Kelley bees, they shared no characteristics with the true Russians I had purchased from Russian beekeepers..


username00101, 
So you were able to import some bees from Russia?
Where are those Russian beekeepers located?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is a case where someone bought 4 hives of some "Russian" bees (this is in Russia).
So I contend they actually bought some unknown mutts of unknown origin - does not matter how they were labeled (they bought a cat in a beg).
Poor guys - they don't know what to do with these bees now - no honey, lots of bees and impossible to manage.

EDIT: these bees were labeled as "mid-russians" aka AMM.
All other hives on the yard are Carpathica and are very manageable.

Watch:


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

GregV said:


> Here is a case where someone bought 4 hives of some "Russian" bees (this is in Russia).
> So I contend they actually bought some unknown mutts of unknown origin - does matter how they were labeled.
> Poor guys - they don't know what to do with these bees now - no honey, lots of bees and impossible to manage.
> Watch:


As Micheal Palmer would say. Stapling your socks to your ankles! Lol. I love that saying.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Russia is a BIG COUNTRY.






Look at the comments: All Russian.

They're literally speaking Russian (the people, not the bees).

Here's what the comments of the youtube video state:

_I found out from the beekeepers after the purchase, the bees are of the Middle Russian breed._


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

As I've previously described, authentic Russian bees are aggressive.

We also have a Russian beekeeper here on Beesource who describes the exact behavior of high aggression. @Timokha

Below is a translation of comments from the youtube video of authentic Russian beekeepers describing keeping Central Russian bees:, so we can clearly see that true Russians are aggressive. 


_My Central Russian are evil, like dogs ... (and the smoker does not take them ... no bribes)

use the smoke often. I, too, are angry, but the smoker calms them down, and so they become even angrier from the smell of poison.


I also have 4 families, such 1 is definitely evil in itself and 3 only bought in addition to calm down a little, but 1 day when the forest in the hive of neighbors was bitten 3-4 times each, as well as dogs and cats and even tried to bite the fence they fought against him, but right now, they became calmer, I hope after wintering they will become generally kind) 

In this manner of performance, only BOLS work with Central Russians. You cannot completely open all the frames, and the second person must constantly smoke. If they are so ragged as in the video, then they do not collect honey for a week and attack everyone within a radius of 200 meters. 


I was sold four families of which one is just animals! The father-in-law came and 30 meters away from the hives received a full course of apitherapy and everything was bald. He brought his wife first, because the seller swore they were peaceful. I will not describe what happened later. I also get it, but thanks to them only where there is no mask. When he called the beekeeper, he said that there was no place on his body where the bees would not sting him. 

And my evil ones are the same as your Central Russian ones. They only get furious with the sound of the roof opening, and then a tornado occurs._


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> Look at the comments: All Russian. @GregV please translate for us.


The comments mostly amount to two opinions:

these are typical mid-russans (i.e. the AMM are nasty bees)
these are NOT the mid-russians but mutts (i.e. the AMM are fine bees)

Then people argue back and force.

The real issue - they too have all kinds of hybridization going on and no-one is know what bees they have.
Hardly anyone does any morpho-metry check on the bees (they don't even know what it is). Forget the genetic testing outright.
Basically - watch the random mutts in action - "no honey/lots of bees/impossible to manage" is just one real possibility of about a million possible outcomes with random mutts. LOL


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> Russia is a BIG COUNTRY.


Yes.
And they too have issues with hybridization now days just like in the US.
Outside of some hold outs who are trying to maintain pure stocks - most everyone has all kinds of hybrids. And the queen/bee sellers themselves are a huge problem.
A big country, a big mess.

The only difference from the US - Russia still has pure native bees in some pockets (as I reported already).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> We also have a Russian beekeeper here on Beesource who describes the exact behavior of high aggression. @Timokha
> 
> Below is a translation of comments from the youtube video of authentic Russian beekeepers describing keeping Central Russian bees:, so we can clearly see that true Russians are aggressive.


Why, I helped my Dad with AMMs since I was 7-ish.
All we had was AMMs.
Some hives where mild enough; some others were jumpy - we knew them by the hive #s.
On bad days, due to Dad's mistakes, the neighbors were stung up and had to hide.
On other bad days everyone got stung just for walking by.

Been there, done that.
No doubt, AMMs are not for your average US backyard beekeeping - I would not do it.
But they are manageable on average - simply they make you pay attention and not be sloppy.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

_On bad days, due to Dad's mistakes, the neighbors were stung up and had to hide.
On other bad days everyone got stung just for walking by._

My authentic Russian bees did things like this, thankfully the apiary isn't close to neighbors. 

_Definitely _not recommended to purchase authentic Russians for neighborhoods. Stick with some other hybrid for neighborhoods.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> My authentic Russian


So then you have AMMs?
Trying again.


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## Timokha (Jan 31, 2016)

GregV said:


> Timokha, please don't confuse people more than they already are.
> 
> Mid-Russians are A. m. mellifera (somewhat pure or still hybrids with Caucasians/Carpathica).
> I know about these bees enough.
> ...


Actually I am confused. Becouse speaking about Russian bees, I think of mid-Russian bees. Primorskaya breed I would not call Russian and I think they are not called Russian in Russia. Probably there are no mid-Russian bees in The USA. 

All comments were made about Russian bees. Only you mentioned them as Pimorskaya. That is why I decided to step in and tell about my experience with mid-Russians bees.

Thank you.


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## Timokha (Jan 31, 2016)

Timokha said:


> I lived in central Russia for 17 years. I had so called Mid-Russian bees. yes, they are aggressive. I kept them in my moms garden. Had to built 6 foot tall wooden fence in front of the hives(30 feet away) to make them take off up and not attack people walking along the street. Always worked in rubber boots, rubber thick gloves and put a hat under the veil. When mid-russians attack they hit first and then drill literally the rubber gloves until they get to your skin. WHen you move your hand above open hive they jump on your hand like mad dogs by dozen. The other commenter right. No body breeds them. They are honey bees but they mate as they want. They work also like crazy. In Tulskaya oblast(it is 60 miles south from Moscow) Summer is rainy. We had only two weeks of good weather. A lot of wild flowers. We harvested 70-100 pounds from one 24 frame hive(two 12 frame deeps datant style) boy those boxes are heavy. 😫
> Never had problems with trespassers an day time though 😃 One summer we(me and three more beekeepers) were in fields with our bees for that season. One drunk villager was walking by. I was on duty that day warned him to change his rote. He said that he does not afrade of bees. So they smelled him and chased him for about 300 feet through the forest. 🤣 I told him. These bees are also very quick for robbery. Have to be fast working with them. Open only three frames at a time. use A lot of smoke. Now in the states I enjoy Italian, carniolan, carnica.
> Yes, mid-russians winter well. I lost usually not more that 10% of my colonies. temperatures are -20-30celcius below. In a wooden shed. Main thing - now wind, dark. Fed them starting august 5, finish no later than september 7 approx 9 gallons of sugar syrup. it was enough till april.


I have to add that mid-Russians like to swarm. There is now way to stop them from doing that. I just asked my mom to watch them at noon time and call me right after that. So I was able to catch all my swarms in spring.


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## Timokha (Jan 31, 2016)

Here some pics from Russia 2006


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Timokha said:


> *Actually I am confused.* Becouse speaking about Russian bees, I think of mid-Russian bees. Primorskaya breed I would not call Russian and I think they are not called Russian in Russia. Probably there are no mid-Russian bees in The USA.
> 
> All comments were made about Russian bees. Only you mentioned them as Pimorskaya. That is why I decided to step in and tell about my experience with mid-Russians bees.
> 
> Thank you.


Clearly, you are out of context (the USA context - to be very clear).


Better catch up.
Start reading here:


> The *Russian honeybee* refers to honey bees (_Apis mellifera_) *that originate in the Primorsky Krai region of Russia.* This strain of bee was imported into the United States in 1997 by the USDA................


https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.ph...ze_of_a_small_oak_tree.&action=edit&redlink=1








Russian honey bee - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I agree with @Timokha with regards to the behavior of the mid Russian bees.

We're talking about the Russians from the Center of the continent, not the Far Eastern Primorskaya lineage.

@Timokha I think (Can't say for certain) there's some Russian families that import queens from Mid Russia. If you come to the East coast of the US, and talk to the native Russian beekeepers. One may be able to find some Mid-Russians for sale.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> If you come to the East coast of the US, and talk to the native Russian beekeepers. O*ne may be able to find some Mid-Russians for sale.
> *



I'd be interested to do the wing measurements of the bees that they sell.
The "Mid-Russians" are very distinct.
It is easy to tell the fakes from the real deal (even from a close-enough deal).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> *We're talking about the Russians from the Center of the continent*, not the Far Eastern Primorskaya lineage.


Not in this thread.
That is the whole point.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I think we should distinguish between the various lines of bees that originate from Mother Russia.

We know that there's Central Russian, and Far Eastern Russian bees.

The ones from the far eastern region are studied for their varroa resistance.

I'd be interested in learning more about the Russian bees from the motherland myself. I was not fond of the Central Russians aggression, but overall they were extremely helpful for increasing the drone populations in my mating yard.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Would it be safe to say that the Republic of Georgia Mountain Grays are not the same bee? They are supposed to be gentle and good honey producers, but are often referred to as Russians.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> Would it be safe to say that the Republic of Georgia Mountain Grays are not the same bee? They are supposed to be gentle and good honey producers, but are often referred to as Russians.


Not much in common.
The pure Grays are O-lineage.
The pure AMMs are M-lineage.
Historically, their populations never overlapped geographically (until 20th century, of course).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> I'd be interested in learning more about the Russian bees from the motherland myself.


Here is picture from the USSR times.
The Black bee (aka Mid-Russian) has many local variants due to the huge residence area.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

My oh my, Mother Russia is a glorious land.

How do we import those bees into our apiaries?


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## Mud Songs (Sep 30, 2010)

David ryle said:


> In reality just how aggressive are Russians, I'm not talking about crosses, I specifically want to know about the temperament of Russian bees from accredited stock. Thanks in advance.


A believe a commercial beekeeper near me breeds what he calls black queens derived from Russian stock. I've had no issues with his bees. They're as gentle and easy to work as any other bee, plus they seem to survive my damp winters well in small clusters, always with plenty of honey left over in the spring.

They can get cranky in the shade or when the weather turns cold, but in my climate, which often becomes suddenly cold and camp any time of the year, that seems to be the case with any kind of bee, Italians, etc.

The most vicious bees I ever had were some severely inbred Italians. They chased after me as soon as they saw me in the beeyard. Any slightest disturbance and they would pour out of the hive. But I think it was because they were inbred. (They made a tonne of honey, though.)


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## Surviving Our Bees (Feb 14, 2021)

_The most vicious bees I ever had were some severely inbred Italians. They chased after me as soon as they saw me in the beeyard. Any slightest disturbance and they would pour out of the hive. But I think it was because they were inbred. (They made a tonne of honey, though.)_

How does a bee become inbred? For example, would the mating yard need to be like 2 or 3 colonies, and they just only mate from their own drones?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Mud Songs said:


> The most vicious bees I ever had were *some severely inbred Italians.*


There is no way to definitely know that open-mated bees are somehow "severely inbred".
I can only presume you Artificially Inseminated those poor Italian queens for many generations until they went totally bonkers.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Surviving Our Bees said:


> How does a bee become inbred?


Normally, the breeder would intentionally breed some queens to the drones of the same lineage so to promote some desired but recessive traits (suppressed otherwise).
This normally takes AI.


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## Mud Songs (Sep 30, 2010)

GregV said:


> There is no way to definitely know that open-mated bees are somehow "severely inbred".
> I can only presume you Artificially Inseminated those poor Italian queens for many generations until they went totally bonkers.



It was a situation where the queens mated with their siblings in an isolated beeyard with two hives. The closest beeyard was 10km away. Queens mating with their siblings -- that's pretty inbred, right? The offspring were just nasty as nasty could be. Perhaps other factors were at play, but the gene pool was shallow.


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## barskuk (Mar 5, 2020)

What Russian bees are we talking about? Specific or abstract? There are many bee races in Russia. I heard that Primorsky's bees were imported to the USA.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

barskuk said:


> What Russian bees are we talking about? Specific or abstract? There are many bee races in Russia. I heard that Primorsky's bees were imported to the USA.


The original question was about “accredited stock” which I think most of us took to mean the RHBA stock drawn from the import from the region you mentioned. However, I find inputs from people who have raised bees in Russia very interesting.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

barskuk said:


> What Russian bees are we talking about?


Primorsky.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Mud Songs said:


> The closest beeyard was *10km *away


That's close enough to mitigate the "severe inbreeding".




> Studies in the 1950’s by Peer demonstrated that *matings could occur between queens and drones originally separated by 10.1 miles* 4. These studies showed an inverse relationship between distance and successful mating.
> More recently, Jensen _et al_., produced data that was in agreement with this,* with drone and queen colonies separated by 9.3 miles still successfully mating* 5.











Sphere of influence - The Apiarist


How far do honey bees fly? Not how far can they fly, but how far do they normally fly - to feed, to mate, to rob or to swarm? It might be further than you think.




www.theapiarist.org


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## David ryle (Dec 2, 2020)

Tigger19687 said:


> As I am sure was pointed out before but unless you bought AI stock you got mutts.
> I think just about every stock no matter what kind is still going to have some differences between each queen.
> Some need a little more smoke then others... as a general saying


To my knowledge, none of the accredited Russian breeders use II, they rely on heavy drone presence in mating yards, if someone knows different please speak up.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

One has to remember that the" Primorsky" bees are not native to that area of Russia,but were imported to that area in the 1800s upon the completion of the Trans Siberian railroad as an alternative to the Eastern honey bee,A.cerana.
I have read (but can't find the reference),that the original stock was Caucasian and was exposed to Varroa when the mite crossed over from A.cerana long before Varroa reached the native range of A.mellifera.The beekeepers,not having miticides,bred from the A.m. survivors and eventually developed a strain over the next 100 yrs that had some resistance to Varroa.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> I have read (but can't find the reference),that the original stock was Caucasian and was exposed to Varroa when the mite crossed over from A.cerana long before Varroa reached the native range of A.mellifera.The beekeepers,not having miticides,bred from the A.m. survivors and eventually developed a strain over the next 100 yrs that had some resistance to Varroa.


The original random imports in the 19th centure were, in fact, the *Ukrainian *bees and some Amm (before the USSR).
Only later, under the USSR management, Caucasian bee and Italian bee were inserted as planned "stock improvements measures".
That is that.
The first Varroa-related collapses can be arguably placed in 1950s (from the printed materials of the time but without clear cause-effect explanations yet). Which makes it 70-80 years of Am coexisting with Varroa (~1950-2020).


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## barskuk (Mar 5, 2020)

About Primorsky bees in the 1975 book. You can translate with a translator. In short - Primorsky bees can be different.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

barskuk said:


> View attachment 62104
> 
> About Primorsky bees in the 1975 book. You can translate with a translator. In short - Primorsky bees can be different.


Why, there are plenty of good materials about the Primorsky bees.
The Primorsky bees are a population of non-endemic mutts with high resulting variabiltiy - we discussed it enough already.

Quick google - much better starter reads about the Primorsky bees.






Породная принадлежность дальневосточных пчел - журнал Пчеловодство


Пчелы Амурской области требуют дальнейшего изучения, так как обследована лишь незначительная их часть.




beejournal.ru









Породные и хозяйственно-полезные особенности медоносных пчел Дальнего Востока


Попова, Инна Викторовна. Породные и хозяйственно-полезные особенности медоносных пчел Дальнего Востока: дис. кандидат сельскохозяйственных наук: 06.02.04 - Частная зоотехния, технология производства продуктов животноводства. Уссурийск. 2009. 222 с.




www.dissercat.com


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

I believe the original post is about "Russian bees" one can easily buy in the US which would be from the Russian bee Breeders' Association. Today one would need to take into account the "drift" that could have occurred since they came here. Sorry to all who are commenting on bees "in" Russia, as those are not easily ordered here. The fact we are also on an international Website only adds in a little more confusion. 

David did I accurately understand your Question? How aggressive are the "Russian bees" sold in the US likely from the RBBA?

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> Sorry to all who are commenting on bees "in" Russia, as *those are not easily ordered here.*


I know!
I am not sure why the "bees in Russia" got mixed in with the Russian (TM) bees here.
The "bees in Russia" <> Russian (TM) bees for sale in the US.


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## Surviving Our Bees (Feb 14, 2021)

I had aggressive "hot" bee issues with the Russians.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

I have several queens from Foley's russian bees and they dont seem any more aggressive than the other bees in my yards.


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## David ryle (Dec 2, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> I believe the original post is about "Russian bees" one can easily buy in the US which would be from the Russian bee Breeders' Association. Today one would need to take into account the "drift" that could have occurred since they came here. Sorry to all who are commenting on bees "in" Russia, as those are not easily ordered here. The fact we are also on an international Website only adds in a little more confusion.
> 
> David did I accurately understand your Question? How aggressive are the "Russian bees" sold in the US likely from the RBBA?
> 
> GG


Precisely yes.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

And yet another opinion (speaking of Dr. Tom Rinderer ):

"He and Dr. F. Ruttner both concluded that the actual subspecies being brought to Louisiana and quarantined on a nearby island was _Apis mellifera macedonica, _a relative of the_ Carniolan bee (Apis mellifera carnica). _Both used a technique called morphometrics (structural analysis), which was in vogue at the time before substantive genetic identification techniques were developed. However, according to Dr. Rinderer, neither of these determinations were published."

From:









Discussion of Russian honey bees and the Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association.


Update on the Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association. History of some members. How to become certified. Future of the program.




beekeep.info





No date on this article.Steve Coy has not been president for a number of years.
Also,surprisingly no mention of Charlie Harper who worked closely with 
Dr Rinderer in the beginning


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

May be an English translation of what Greg posted.









Genetic differentiation of the Novosibirsk population of Primorsky honey bee - Russian Agricultural Sciences


Seven microsatellite loci were evaluated to compare the allele pool of Primorsky honeybee population (n = 90), which was introduced into the Novosibirsk region (south-western Siberia), with the populations of Middle Russian (n = 191, A.m. mellifera), Mountain Grey Caucasian (n =113, A.m...




link.springer.com


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> He and Dr. F. Ruttner both concluded that the actual subspecies being brought to Louisiana and quarantined on a nearby island was _Apis mellifera macedonica, _a relative of the_ Carniolan bee (Apis mellifera carnica). _


Indeed, the predominant initial breed imported into the Primorsky was the Ukrainian bee (as I mentioned).
The Ukrainian bee (former _Apis mellifera macedonica) _is now reclassified into _Apis mellifera sossimai _(as a separate subspecies). However, this was only the *initially predominant* breed due to massive emigration from the Ukraine into the Primorsky region at the time (pre-USSR).
The Caucasians and Italians were later added in significant numbers during the USSR administration.

I suspect, they did not publish this conclusion because, well, it was sketchy.
The Primorsky bees are mutts, not a pure breed of any particular kind..


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

MJC417 said:


> I monitor mites and treat accordingly.


Are you finding that the Russians have to be treated at the same rate as other strains?


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

I only keep around 20 to 25 hives so I can't claim that they need to be treated less, but some hives certainly have lower counts and those are the ones I graft from. To me it seems they are hardier than any other bees I've had. Maybe they can handle disease and cold weather better, I'm not sure.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

MJC417 said:


> I only keep around 20 to 25 hives so I can't claim that they need to be treated less, but some hives certainly have lower counts and those are the ones I graft from. To me it seems they are hardier than any other bees I've had. Maybe they can handle disease and cold weather better, I'm not sure.


MJC Do you notice any correlation between small cluster going into winter and lower mite counts next season? Perhaps booming colony going in is carrying a lot of unhelpful baggage!


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

crofter said:


> MJC Do you notice any correlation between small cluster going into winter and lower mite counts next season? Perhaps booming colony going in is carrying a lot of unhelpful baggage!


I do, and I try not to feed hives in the fall. I like them to go into winter with a small cluster and treat them with OA in December. As a result I get very low mite counts in the spring. If any hives need to be fed I do it in March with fondant before the maples bloom.


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## David ryle (Dec 2, 2020)

Marcin said:


> No real experience with Russians yet. Got certified queens from a breeder in Iowa and installed them in late June/early July 2020. By the time most of the bees were offspring from the queen, my season was winding down. They did buzz and fly around me more than other strains, but no stinging. Multiple queen cells were a common sight during inspections, and I did find a few hives with 2 queens in them towards the end of the season, mid to late September. Left it as is. Haven't really checked on them since very early December.


Hi there, just curious, we both bought Russian queens about the same time(mine were from Golden Ridge Apiary), how did they come through winter and if they did how are they doing?


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## CliffS (May 12, 2021)

GregH said:


> I had a buddy that wanted to get into bees so he bought him a Russian hive for his first hive. He wanted me to come over and look at them with him about 2 months after he bought them. After I looked at them with him he ask me what I thought. I told him if they were mine they would be dead before dark. They were the meanest bee I had ever been around at that time, they would chase you 200 yards for no reason. There are to many good gentle bees out there for sale why would anyone want to put up with something that mean I see no advantage to a mean hive. Also if they are mean you are not going to go into the box and look as much as you should.


my meanest hives are also my most productive and require the least amount of treatment. That's why mine are around.


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## CliffS (May 12, 2021)

Anyone have experience with "Russian" bees in a Mediterranean climate?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Yep, sometimes aggressive colonies CAN be productive.

Not a rule, not even close.


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## CliffS (May 12, 2021)

username00101 said:


> Yep, sometimes aggressive colonies CAN be productive.
> 
> Not a rule, not even close.


no, of course not, but as long as the few aggressive hives I have keep producing and show superior hygiene, I'm going to keep them around


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Let's see, there is the Ukranian, Caucasian, Carniolian, Macedonian, Russian, and I'm sure I've forgotten a few subspecies of bee.
I have to wonder if they stay within their namesake boundaries, or if there isn't an awful lot of migration between areas. Hence, the populations are mixed.
I'm confident that I couldn't tell one from the other in most cases.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

David ryle said:


> Hi there, just curious, we both bought Russian queens about the same time(mine were from Golden Ridge Apiary), how did they come through winter and if they did how are they doing?


Just saw this...
81% survived. They definitely had smaller clusters in March that my Carni mutts, or some Italian colonies I have access too. But by beginning of May, it seems the clusters have caught up somewhat. Swarming is big with them. It seems their swarm urge comes earlier as far as population size goes, less drone brood and even with ample space. I lost about half of the queens to swarming. Lesson learned. It's a different management that I haven't figured out yet. They're not as productive as the other strains, but they also don't seem to consume as much, so total harvest may be the similar. I mite wash every time I'm in those 2 yards. They have mites, but less than Carnis or Italians and they numbers don't seem to grow from mite wash to mite wash. Some of the hives that haven't swarmed have 2 queens in it. Weird but cool seeing a white dot and blue dot walking around on frames. I have to wear at least a veil when I'm in the Russian yards. They don't sting more, just in your face more.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Marcin said:


> Lesson learned. It's a different management that I haven't figured out yet.


With these you want to have extra space available at all time (during the swarm season).
If horizontal hive, you'd want spill-over space around the "follower board".
If vertical hive, you'd want an extra spill-over box part, partially available to the bees.
This way they "feel" they always have space to grow and not under pressure to swarm.


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## Nicksotherhoney (Jun 10, 2017)

My Russians this year are far outpacing my Carnis...I know Russians are Carnis too.. but that’s what’s happening in my neck of the woods.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

David ryle said:


> In reality just how aggressive are Russians, I'm not talking about crosses, I specifically want to know about the temperament of Russian bees from accredited stock. Thanks in advance.


Buy some


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