# Taber's Breeding Super Bees



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

On page 20 and 21, Taber describes a queen breeder who so impressed Farrer at the USDA Bee Lab that they went to visit his operation to see just what he was doing to produce such exceptional queens. Does anyone know who that queen breeder was?

DarJones


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What book are you writing about? This is the mirror image of a Thread started w/ a Link w/ no comment.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

looked it up. long time ago but shows that the methods and care were more important than the bee. may still apply today as the trend is to let queens lay longer before being caged.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A queen rearer I know doesn't think letting a queen lay longer is necassary nor economical for the one raising and selling queens. They can't really let them lay very long after mating.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

A queens ovaricles are much larger after a full 21 days of laying. Most commercial queen breeders ship after 14 days I believe. Giving them the extra week is supposed to provide a more robust queen according to people who know more than I do.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So, when buying queens one should ask how long the queens layed before shipping? I have never thought of that when picking someone to buy queens from. Will that make a difference in how many queens are accepted and how many get superceded?

If one sees a relatively high percentage of supercedure, could that be because of how long the queen layed eggs before shipping?

Would one be better off buying virgin queens, or queen cells, rather than queens that had been laying for a week or less?

What do queen rearers look for when harvesting new queens? Do they look for eggs before snatching up the queen and putting her in a cage? Or do they look at the queen and determine that she has or hasn't been mated? Killing virgins and installing a cell in the mating nuc? Because of time constarints and if she didn't get mated when all the rest did, she probably won't?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Most queen breeders have their mating nucs on a cycle of from 14 to 21 days. They expect to put in a cell, let it hatch, virgin mate, start to lay, let the first eggs hatch, then pull the queen and ship. There are some tricks that can be used such as installing a fresh queen cell in a protector so that you can cut the cycle by several days. Taber describes how to do this but recommends against it.

The supposed problem with this is that the queen is still maturing physically, her ovaries are expanding and different tubules are developing eggs. Some queens lay erratically at first which can not easily be detected in a small mating nuc. If they are kept in the nuc for a full 3 weeks, it is easier to tell if there is a problem from the capped brood and it gives a bit more time for the queen to lay uninterrupted so that she is ready to lay to maximum capacity when needed. 

The best Italian queens I've ever had were from Glenn Fowler. I drove to his place and he caged them and handed them to me. Less than an hour later, I had them in colonies waiting to be released from the cages.

DarJones


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Are you refering to a book by Steve Taber? Which book?


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Pretty sure his subject line means that he is talking about Taber's "Breeding Super Bees" as I believe it is the only book on bees that Mr. Taber wrote but I could be wrong.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thank you Keth. I wasn't sure, since Steve Taber has been dead a while.


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## stripstrike (Aug 29, 2009)

Bought that book for my after Turkey reading material. I'm looking forward to it.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Read Jay Smith's book first and then read Taber. If you decide to raise some queens, review the Cloake board and how it is used.

Taber calls the shots when it comes to drones and drone availability and what it says about the status of a colony.

DarJones


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well who was the breeder and what was special about his methods, other than letting the queen lay 3 weeks?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Quoting from the book:


> In the late 30's and early 40's the USDA Bee Culture Lab in Madison, Wisconsin started a program to determine which stocks available from queen breeders were best. Two-pound packages with queens were placed on combs on or about April 15. Brood production, population, and total honey production were monitored carefully. Some of these package colonies barely made winter stores, but a few did pretty well, producing 150 to 250 pounds above winter requirements. But one breeder consistently produced queens that developed colonies producing 250 to 450 pounds of honey over winter requirements.
> 
> Madison's Farrar, and other government beemen then spent time visiting and making observations of that particular queen breeder, and methodology developed in his queen-rearing operation. The conclusion was the stock was no better than available anywhere else. That's right! When we reared queens from that stock or from stock obtained from the poorly performing groups, we turned out very high-performance queens. So it wasn't the stock that was good -- it was the queen breeder. What stood out more than anything was his care and selection of each queen cell and queen every step of the way.
> 
> The basic information we got from that queen breeder was something we already knew -- to raise superior queens was mostly a matter of creating a superior environment. After all, there is no genetic difference between the workers and the larvae from which you graft your queens. Improve the environment. Improve the environment -- get that imprinted in your queen-rearing method every step of the way. Be sure there are always enough young bees and more than enough pollen and honey available. Always graft more cells than you will use or need so you can select only the best. Also, have more laying queens than you will use, and again -- select only the best.


So my question is "who is the breeder"? He is not named in the book.

DarJones


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I bet rrussell knows. Or, maybe, Larry Connor. I'll try to ask Connor.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I have been grooming a friendship with a man at the Wisconsin Historical Society. IF you can pin down a time period when a report was made, or even a when a visit was taken, it MAY be possible to locate that information. It will cost me a few jars of honey, but they are always looking for ways to show the value of historical items in today's world.

Crazy Roland


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

That would have been a long time ago, back when they where breeding for tracheal mite resistance if I'm not mistaken.
If you're interested Tabors old queen breeding operation is called honey bee genetics in Vacaville, CA


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I asked Larry. He didn't know.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I suspect the question should be, "Who _was_ the breeder?" The time frame in the book is 70+ years ago. Even if the breeder happened to be an exceptionally young man to be a queen breeder at that time, he would likely be up into his 90s now, and would more likely be over 100 if he still happens to be alive.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> I asked Larry. He didn't know.


I talked to Larry again. He replied:

"I think Farrar was using stock from his lab. Who was the beekeeper there? Emmett Harp? He did a lot of queen work.
Other source would have been Otto Mackinsen, who sent stock North every year for testing. That may be the link you need, since Baton Rouge bee lab has all the quarterly research reports going back to the invention of government dirt. 
Ask Dave Miksa if he knows, since he worked at that lab years ago".

I'll write Dave and ask if he knows.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Didn't Mackinson develop a device for Instrumental Insemination? The Mackinson device? Or is that something else?

Didn't Taber and Connor have something to do w/ The Midnight and Starline lines of queens?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I was thinking of Emmett Harp. The state Entomologist, or what ever his tittle is called, is still in contact with Emmett. I will try to contact him. My family often worked with the Bee Lab, and used Jensen in Mississippi as their queen source in the 60's. 

Crazy Roland


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## summerbeegirl (Sep 10, 2011)

Ooooo! It's like a cool mystery!!! I'm excited to hear how it turns out. opcorn:

Gonna stay tuned....

-Summer


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I will try to contact Emmett Harp.

Crazy Roland


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I heard back from Dave Miksa. Interesting...personal remarks edited out.

Roland, can you talk to Emmett?

Michael,

I started at Madison Lab the year Dr. Farrar retired. Emmett Harp was my immediate supervisor and yes our work was improving, rearing, testing, hybridize etc. of queens.
Emmett & Maxine still live in Madison, you might give him a call.

I did not work at Baton Rouge but did know Taber and others. In fact I worked Steve's imported AHB stock from Dr Kerr in Madison, WI.
All of the original Quarter reports from Madison went to Tucson when that lab was closed. Also every quarter copies were sent to Baton Rouge.
In the late 80's I had to read them at Tucson ... & copy the importation docs of AHB sperm sent from Dr Kerr to Taber to have in print ... 
In either lab's 1/4 reports what would be interesting reading on your subject would be the experiments done to find out which queen breeder had the best stock in the USA.
To make a long story short they found the best to be in AL. But then in order to verify the data a switch was done and the best producer reared queens from the poorest stock only to find out they were equal to the best.
So was it the nurture of production, environment (nature), or drone source? or all three. 

The USDA ARS 1/4 reports are wonderful reading, 95% of the work they have done never was printed..much of the rich & not so rich information is locked in them. 

Your question "Do you know the answer? Who was the queen producer that produced 250-450 lbs of honey over winter requirements using average stocks as breeder queens?"

That might have been 50 years ago (Farming has changed negatively for bees since), a two queen colony, an expert honey producer?

My personal 50 years experience is that the nurtured production of queens is more important than stock. Doing both is better.

David


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very interesting post.

Still leaving us hanging though!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"nurtured production of queens is more important than stock." Prophetic words, I bet.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Don't forget the rest...

"Doing both is better".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Meaning both well nurtured queens of good stock? Sure, that makes sense.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

This was interesting enough that I called Emmett Harp and asked. He did indeed remember the name of the queen breeder. The bees were a good stock of Italian. He said the guys name was "Short". I went to my bookshelf and pulled down the 1936 Gleanings in Bee Culture and am going through the ads to see if he was listed. So far I've found a few bee businesses in Greenville, AL including Graydon Bros, Skinner, Lewis & Tillery, etc. 

He also mentioned that Harrell queens were very highly rated in the tests.

Someone else might be able to talk to him a bit more and see if he can add anything further to the information.

Italian queens were widely available by the 1930's with the average price about 75 cents each. There were also several listings for Mountain Gray Caucasians! I would conclude from just a brief look that this gets down to 100% nurture on the part of the queen breeder.

Reading this issue of Gleanings for May 1936 is an eye opener. Queens are typically 75 cents each. 3 pound package with queen is $3.15 each. What is incredible is the number of queen breeders in Alabama. Norman, Harrell, Holder, Cutts, Knight, Silver Run, and others were in business at the time. The only queen breeder I am aware of that still is producing queens is Glenn Fowler. He is in his 80's but has a couple of grandsons who are helping.

Also interesting is the stock offered. It is either Italian or Mountain Gray Caucasian. There are not Carniolans and there certainly are no German Black Bees.

DarJones


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Harrell queens? As in Harrell and Sons? Bought some packages from them some 20 plus years ago.

His name was Short? Or his name was short?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Fusion power - you beat me to it. I was working on a road trip to Madison to speak with him in person if possible. I may still try to do so. 

Mr Palmer, Who had the cottage up north(Wisconsin) on a small river? I just realized I went to his house in the late 60's. He may have been retired at that point.

Crazy Roland


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

"nurtured production of queens is more important than stock. Doing both is better".
Seems obvious to be. Barring that you never know what stone when turned will reveal the unexpected. It does happen.

Selection is about genetics. But genetics make no difference if those genetics are not able to be expressed. At the core of my thought is the claim by I believe Jay Smith that many queens when reared will be exceptional layers until they are shipped. It is then found they are poor layers. His opinion on this effect was that caging the queen and preventing her from laying for even a few days during transport damaged her. The Genetics are still in the package. but the environment has prevented them from being expressed. The answer is to rear a new queen from her as soon as possible. this queen is then not shipped and able to express the superior egg laying trait. Nurture is what makes that difference.

To me selection and nurture are so intertwined as to be one and the same. Otherwise you may have the perfect genetics and never know it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Didn't Mackinson develop a device for Instrumental Insemination? The Mackinson device? Or is that something else?
> 
> Didn't Taber and Connor have something to do w/ The Midnight and Starline lines of queens?


I know Dr. GH Cale was a primary developer of the old Midnight and Starline lines working for or together with Dadants. Seems like he was doing a lot of his research in Yucatan back in the 60's.


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