# treatment free beekeeping?



## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

I am just curious, how many of you treatment free beekeepers out there have 

A) had good results over a long term, 2+ years
B) what is your strategy?
C) did you get the covid vaccine?


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

1. Rather poor results. I think it is more due to my poor management skills than mites though. Last year for example I let the bees run wild and they swarmed themselves over and over and ended up with puny weak colonies that didn't survive. Not many mites but other things can kill hives than just mites. 

2. Strategy is frequent splits, brood breaks, and extensive drone culling. It appears to work to keep the mite numbers down. I tried oxalic acid on shop towels last year on some hives but don't really have any results to note, since the hives died for other reasons.

3. Yes, in December. Pfizer.


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## ankklackning (Dec 10, 2020)

I'm running into a lot of people saying treatment free didn't work for them. But to be fair it seems that people are using the wrong frequency of how often to treat with alternative treatment methods. Like for example, many people using the same frequency they'd use for oxalic acid with other methods that aren't anything at all like OA. 

So it seems like there isn't a lot of good data.


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## sparkyApis (Apr 9, 2021)

I sense a bit of a definition problem. To paraphrase from #3

....treatment free didn't work .... using the wrong frequency of (alternative) treatment .....

This leaves me a little confused as to your definition of treatment free and a some expansion or clarification may help the discussion.
Sel.


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## Plannerwgp (May 18, 2019)

bendriftin said:


> I am just curious, how many of you treatment free beekeepers out there have
> 
> A) had good results over a long term, 2+ years
> B) what is your strategy?
> C) did you get the covid vaccine?


I have been trying to be treatment-free for 10 years, and also have used various types of treatment. I have not succeeded at either. Last year I treated with Apivar and lost almost all hives. I am old and have serious health problems and do not want to be near any of the products for treatment. There is a reason that the labels are very specific about protecting yourself from their product. Treatment free for me has not worked. I am about to test around 10 colonies and then try and find something that may help but does not adversely affect my health such as Hopp Guard. I have tried this product with no success also but may try one more time.


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## n8app155 (Jun 3, 2020)

Plannerwgp said:


> I have been trying to be treatment-free for 10 years, and also have used various types of treatment. I have not succeeded at either. Last year I treated with Apivar and lost almost all hives. I am old and have serious health problems and do not want to be near any of the products for treatment. There is a reason that the labels are very specific about protecting yourself from their product. Treatment free for me has not worked. I am about to test around 10 colonies and then try and find something that may help but does not adversely affect my health such as Hopp Guard. I have tried this product with no success also but may try one more time.


why not oav


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

sparkyApis said:


> I sense a bit of a definition problem. To paraphrase from #3
> 
> ....treatment free didn't work .... using the wrong frequency of (alternative) treatment .....
> 
> ...


The original post is structured in such a way I don't want to even bother.
How and why is COVID vaccination relevant?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Plannerwgp said:


> I have been trying to be treatment-free for 10 years, and also have used various types of treatment.


Do you have some resemblance of the observation data?
Percentages?
Number of hives, etc?
I am truly interested to know (as you can easily verify, I do report my own numbers publicly).
10 years of observational data is valuable IF it has been collected and reported for a specific location.
Otherwise it is an opportunity lost.
Need to have numbers to classify success vs. failure, otherwise it becomes another useless anecdote.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Plannerwgp said:


> I have been trying to be treatment-free for 10 years, and also have used various types of treatment. I have not succeeded at either. Last year I treated with Apivar and lost almost all hives. I am old and have serious health problems and do not want to be near any of the products for treatment. There is a reason that the labels are very specific about protecting yourself from their product. Treatment free for me has not worked. I am about to test around 10 colonies and then try and find something that may help but does not adversely affect my health such as Hopp Guard. I have tried this product with no success also but may try one more time.


If chemicals are your worry, I'd avoid formic acid. Apivar is easy to use and doesn't require nearly the same care against contamination of your skin, but I used gloves when I placed it. Have not bought any for 4 years though. Oxalic acid is probably your best bet. Not medical advice!

Since you are in N Illinois, we are in some sense neighbors. Hello!


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Some have asked why not OAV,? I think the original issue for Plannerwgp is his/her personal health concern in being around such a toxic chemical. That is my problem with Oxalic Acid, I am concerned with my abilities in handling an acid in both vapour or liquid form comfortably and safely for my health not necessarily the bees, because it has already been established that they will be fine. Oxalic Acid is labeled with the highest degree of toxicity.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> Some have asked why not OAV,? I think the original issue for Plannerwgp is his/her personal health concern in being around such a toxic chemical. That is my problem with Oxalic Acid, I am concerned with my abilities in handling an acid in both vapour or liquid form comfortably and safely for my health not necessarily the bees, because it has already been established that they will be fine. Oxalic Acid is labeled with the highest degree of toxicity.


You don't want to get the pure oxalic on your fingers, certainly. It will burn. But handling it is much like handling bleach. Take care to keep it off skin and clothing. I have not worked with vaporized oxalic and have no comment.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Thanks AR1, with being locked down for my first two beekeeping seasons sometimes only online research, without being able to actually directly watch and talk to those who could teach me how to handle treatments such as OA leads to a little fear of the unknown. Hopefully now I can find a local beekeeper that I can go and observe, we don't have any clubs close enough to attend up here.


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## Plannerwgp (May 18, 2019)

ursa_minor said:


> Some have asked why not OAV,? I think the original issue for Plannerwgp is his/her personal health concern in being around such a toxic chemical. That is my problem with Oxalic Acid, I am concerned with my abilities in handling an acid in both vapour or liquid form comfortably and safely for my health not necessarily the bees, because it has already been established that they will be fine. Oxalic Acid is labeled with the highest degree of toxicity.


I believe you are correct. These are all very potent chemicals and the warning sign month package should be ample evidence. Don't be mislead by the often-stated comment that these chemicals originate from organic sources. I am struggling with cancer and I simply cannot take any chance of worsening my condition. Unfortunately, there may be many beekeepers with serious health problems from OA vapor and other chemicals. I feel very bad for the uninformed workers who treat bees for some of the large commercial beekeepers as they may be improperly protected. I had someone try Apivar last year and it devasted 90% of my hives. Another experienced beekeeper in my area had the same issue with Apivar.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> I am concerned with my abilities in handling an acid in both vapour or liquid form comfortably and safely for my health


Well, after 5 years of attempting to be a TF, I am learning the OA (especially now after the latest USDA ruling on OA safety - basically not a concern about bee product contamination).

I only consider working the OA in the liquid form (dribble) as the safest and the cheapest approach.

Google "strongest household chemicals" and see what is commonly sold and bought everywhere and routinely used around the house with just common sense precautions (see drain de-cloggers, bleach, etc)
Or google "strong vinegar sale" - people use concentrated vinegar for pickling projects - we are talking food stuff now. Or a weed killer.... 

Handling the *concentrated *OA is no different from handling any strong household chemical - which most everyone does routinely and successfully.
Most likely you have a bottle of bleach around the house as we speak (I have bleach as we speak - not for drinking. LOL).
I also have a gallon of drain de-clogger.
I also have a gallon of pine cleaner (Google about that too).
If you afraid to handle OA, you should be just afraid of most all household cleaners and good old vinegar or lemon juice too.
Finally, the OA powder itself is sold as a cleaner widely and only requires very common sense precautions when used as cleaner specifically:


> Pour 1 gallon of hot water into a plastic bucket. Put on rubber gloves and add 16 oz. of oxalic acid crystals to the water. Wait until the crystals are completely dissolved before using the solution.


When OA solution is prepared for application, it is akin to diluted lemon juice and not really a concern.
Consider that common household vinegar is 5% solution while the OA solution for bee treatment is much weaker than that (2.5-4.5%). Of couse, acetic acid (vinegar) is weaker then oxalic acid in terms of the PH, but still, these are weak solutions to be panicking about.

So that's the OA personal safety.
It is all about common sense and nothing more.

PS: I don't want to deal with OA vapors at all, however - different subject in the context of cost and safety. Not for me.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

bendriftin said:


> I am just curious, how many of you treatment free beekeepers out there have
> 
> A) had good results over a long term, 2+ years *No , I see > 50% loss in winter. TF worked until it didn't, had bees since "78"*
> B) what is your strategy? * Now , Brood breaks, new queens, Russian variants, and OA*
> C) did you get the covid vaccine? *NO ,, I trust my Own Immune system more than a first time used RNA modification therapy.*


to stay on topic

GG


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> to stay on topic


So sorry, I apologize.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> So sorry, I apologize.



no worries, I know I have side tracked a few, I try to be more vigilant now.

have a great day

GG


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## sparkyApis (Apr 9, 2021)

GregV said:


> I also have a gallon of drain de-clogger.


And that is truly nasty stuff. 

There are two frequently recurring topics in the forum where the same words clearly mean different, to the point of mutually exclusive, things to different people. One is "Treatment Free" and the other is "Screened Bottom Board". In both these topics it usually takes just a couple of pages for people to begin talking past each other when they are often actually in furious agreement, just suffering a communication failure.

In the case of "Treatment Free" there is additional complication when the word "chemical" gets into the discussion. We are surrounded by chemicals, everything we see around us is made up of them, we have some nasty examples in our houses yet, to some people, the word means something new and frightening. Unfortunately there is no agreement on what that something is.

I may be all alone in this and just having a little rant but I wonder if there is any agreement out there. I realise that any effort at rigid definitions is likely to immediately go off the rails into fights to the death about trivia but is there any appetite for something like a "what do we mean by..." section in an appropriate places? As a newbie here, I know that it makes it much harder to balance conflicting advice when those providing the input are using the same words but actually talking about different things.

Sorry if that is an attempted hijack but it is hard to answer OP if we don't know what we are discussing.

Sel.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

sparkyApis said:


> There are two frequently recurring topics in the forum where the same words clearly mean different, to the point of mutually exclusive, things to different people. One is "Treatment Free" and the other is "Screened Bottom Board". In both these topics it usually takes just a couple of pages for people to begin talking past each other when they are often actually in furious agreement, just suffering a communication failure.
> 
> In the case of "Treatment Free" there is additional complication when the word "chemical" gets into the discussion. We are surrounded by chemicals, everything we see around us is made up of them, we have some nasty examples in our houses yet, to some people, the word means something new and frightening. Unfortunately there is no agreement on what that something is.
> Sel.


Did not answer the OP since I'm not at the two year mark yet. Your (excellent BTW) summary of the confusion surrounding TF has inspired me to bite Aspire to be totally TF long term so my strategy was to acquire local bees from a successful TF keeper. Check and check. Well, semi local and semi successful. See my thread below where I blather a bit about my tpope and Dunwoody bees.

Over wintered seven out of seven. Six of which were absolutely TF by the definitions of this sub forum. The one hive that received a partial treatment, was a 100% chemical free treatment by anyone's definition. (Thermal) Oh, did have one summer loss last year. Stupid newbie mistake... Was still shocked to over winter 100% my first year as a new bee keeper.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> Over wintered seven out of seven. Six of which were absolutely TF by the definitions of this sub forum.


Good for you.
Fingers crossed for this to continue.
Keep the accounting straight so that we can get a 5-year study out of you.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

sparkyApis said:


> In the case of "Treatment Free" there is additional complication when the word "chemical" gets into the discussion. We are surrounded by chemicals, everything we see around us is made up of them, we have some nasty examples in our houses yet, to some people, the word means something new and frightening. Unfortunately there is no agreement on what that something is.
> Sel.


Yup. Some seem to think oxalic acid is fine for TF, cause it is 'organic'. Make me laugh. I got no problems with whatever people use, and no problem calling themselves TF, as long as they clearly say what they mean. I have tried Apivar and oxalic acid. But mostly TF.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Did not answer the OP since I'm not at the two year mark yet. Your (excellent BTW) summary of the confusion surrounding TF has inspired me to bite Aspire to be totally TF long term so my strategy was to acquire local bees from a successful TF keeper. Check and check. Well, semi local and semi successful. See my thread below where I blather a bit about my tpope and Dunwoody bees.
> 
> Over wintered seven out of seven. Six of which were absolutely TF by the definitions of this sub forum. The one hive that received a partial treatment, was a 100% chemical free treatment by anyone's definition. (Thermal) Oh, did have one summer loss last year. Stupid newbie mistake... Was still shocked to over winter 100% my first year as a new bee keeper.


my second and 3rd yers were the ones that bit me, the mites seemed to slowly accumulate.

good luck

GG


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

GregV said:


> The original post is structured in such a way I don't want to even bother.
> How and why is COVID vaccination relevant?


That kinda made me giggle as well, as if studying just how dedicated. i.e. "I don't treat bees, myself, my dog, etc."

I would ultimately like to get treatment-free, but for now most will get an OA dribble in late Nov, and again in Dec if we get a warm day, same as last year, when they are broodless. As for vaccine, I have to get the second Moderna tomorrow. First one knocked me down for 3 days. Except for no breathing difficulties, it was about like having covid, but the 4th day I was human again. I new it would be easier to pull out a card when traveling than all the paperwork we had to produce when we went on a recent trip, simple as that.


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## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

GregV said:


> The original post is structured in such a way I don't want to even bother.
> How and why is COVID vaccination relevant?


I am curious if there is a coorelation of people that believe in TF to their desire to get a covid vaccine. I am guessing that there a lot of TF beekeepers that will get a vaccine. Maybe I am way off base but it seams ridiculous to me that some people would be so against treating their bees yet so willing to get the vaccine.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I believe in TF especially if it works in some areas, but I don't think it is possible for me until I am able to keep a hive of bees living thru one full year and I understand bee behaviour and honey bee health a little more. Also I need to build up my hive numbers to where I might be able to take a few risks.


I don't think it is odd at all that people wouldn't treat their bees and yet get a vaccine. The problem is that it is not only about the bees health and living conditions but that we consume a product from the beehive. Some people wish to keep that food as chemical free as possible. I am not debating weather chemicals in a hive taint honey or if it does not because I am not informed enough to speak to that issue, but some beekeepers do believe it is so.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

GregV said:


> Good for you.
> Fingers crossed for this to continue.
> Keep the accounting straight so that we can get a 5-year study out of you.


Will do, hoping for far more than five years!



Gray Goose said:


> my second and 3rd yers were the ones that bit me, the mites seemed to slowly accumulate.
> 
> good luck
> 
> GG


Accumulate, drift, get left behind during a swarm, (likely a major contributor to my summer loss) re-acquired by robbers. Sure there are others... Last year starting mid July through early September I did daily (well almost daily) sticky board counts on five hives (two were top bars...) the highest average was around 27, lowest was about 4. Sorry, lost a hard drive in my beloved 12 year old computer last October so can not get to my spread sheet. Plan to do similar this year and *post *the results so they can not get lost. 

12 hives only 6 screen bottom boards so will have to get creative on which to monitor.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bendriftin said:


> it seams ridiculous to me that some people would be so against treating their bees yet so willing to get the vaccine.


Well, I was zero chem treatments until this year (trying to adjust currently due to very poor survival numbers), meanwhile I always vaccinate too (including COVID now).
So that may seem ridiculous - I agree.
LOL

But you have to agree my life and health (and the same of my spouse/kids) are more valuable to me than lives of some thousands of very common, not endangered insects.

But anyhow, asking about TF status and COVID vaccination status in the same question is odd (IMO). Moving along..


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> Plan to do similar this year and *post *the results so they can not get lost.


Do that.
I too use Beesource as my notebook in many ways.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> I believe in TF especially if it works in some areas,....


+1
You don't really know until you try.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

GregV said:


> You don't really know until you try.


I absolutely agree and I do live in a fairly remote area where it is worth a shot I just have to find a way to get enough hives without having to pay $260- $350 Cd. for each nuc. every year if I lose them during the learning process. Free wood to build the hives and frames I have in spades, free bees, not so much. Swarms are possible, but we have very few local beekeepers and no wild honey bees so they are few and far between. I do have a yard that seems to draw them but they come late in the season and usually only one a year.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

“Treatment Free” “TF” and “Natural” beekeeping are all terms that have been rendered meaningless by themselves. We need to just quit using them. There are no reliable definitions for any of these terms. Yet we keep using them and then subsequently spending 3 pages trying to define what is meant.

Explain what you do and what you don’t do. Put it in your signature if that is going to be of primary concern for you. There is no short cut. Just a lot of wandering in the semantical forest otherwise.

When people say they are concerned about handling and using chemicals, can we not give them a three paragraph condescending diatribe on why they are ignorant and ill-informed? Can’t we just respect that they don’t want to handle certain substances and not try to “educate” them? They did not ask our opinion of their hesitance.


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## sylvia (May 14, 2014)

One TBH here. All through 2020 included, I had never treated in any way (never requeened either). I rarely, rarely smoke: maybe 4 times in all these years. The longest any TF hive lasted for me was 2 overwinterings, i.e., the hives got into their 3rd summer still strong. Twice so far, in fact, I have had TF hives going into their 3rd summer before absconding. When my hives failed, they have pretty much all absconded in late summer or early fall (I'm on my 8th year beekeeping now). In fall 2020 disaster struck again, and after posting a thread with pics on this forum, your responses suggested that it was due to a mite hive collapse. I spent the winter reading and researching online. I am TF committed, but wanted to try something new.

I have since changed the configuration of my TBH to a custom-made, foundationless-frame system. My inspections are easier, quicker, less traumatic for the bees. This spring, I took out 2 frames/combs of yet unhatched drone brood (out of a total of 4 drone combs -- all still unhatched at that point) with the idea that I was trying to reduce the number of large-size cells that mites like. Reducing the number of drone brood combs is not a chemical treatment, so for my way of thinking, I would still consider it a treatment-free approach. Probably not all would agree -- after all, I am manipulating the combs in the hive.

I am also trying for the first time this year a nosode-homeopathic treatment on the hive (some might consider homeopathy a treatment, others might consider it hocus-pocus). I am using a "30 C" potency of the nosode, which is above Avogadro's number -- and without going into too long of a diatribe on homeopathy's specifics, this means that if a chemist in a lab were to analyze the solution I spray on the bees, the chemist would only detect pure water H2O, because at this potency's dilution, there is chemically no longer any trace of the original material the nosode was made from (and that's why some folks consider homepathy a scam -- chemically it contains nothing). So, in my way of thinking, this is also a TF approach, because chemically I am spraying the bees with, for all chemical intentions and purposes, just pure distilled water. I will post a new thread in late fall with my results (or lack thereof) of this homeopathic attempt at protecting the bees from mites. I already did a mite count, and I have zero so far. But these bees were bought as a package (April 2021), and the vendor treated for mites before selling. So, maybe too early to tell anyhow. Plus, I know that a negative is difficult to prove.

Since my hive collapsed last fall, I have spoken with many beekeepers, and it seems to me that the "treatment folks" have approximately the same rate failure/success as the TF folks. My TBH has twice overwintered for three years, TF, and I consider that a good enough success. The reason I am trying something new this year is because during one of my recent conversations, my interlocutor said, "if you have bees, you have mites. It's like if you have dogs with fleas. It's not right that you let your dogs with fleas go to the park and play with other dogs. Not fair to the other dogs. Keep your own dogs at your home if they have fleas, your prerogative. But don't let them go around letting their fleas jump on others' dogs." Point well taken. 

Sylvia


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## Jeff DeKing (Feb 10, 2021)

bendriftin said:


> I am just curious, how many of you treatment free beekeepers out there have
> 
> A) had good results over a long term, 2+ years
> B) what is your strategy?
> C) did you get the covid vaccine?


What dose covid vaccine have to do with beekeeping?


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

The OP states why he is asking about COVID vaccination in post #24 above.


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## Jeff DeKing (Feb 10, 2021)

Untreated hives cause problems for other beekeepers and spread the disease and pestilence that we have been fighting for over 60 years. People that cause this problem are the ones who claim that their hives are "organic" and they do no treatments what so ever and wonder why they lose their colonies every year. There is NO such thing as organic bees unless you live on your own private island at least 20 miles off the cost as they forage and rob other hives up to 7 miles away. Evolution takes hundreds if not thousands of years to make a bee resistant to mites and disease and not the couple of years that organic beekeepers seem to think. Mites are already resistant to several well known treatments and formic pro is known for killing queens. Not treating for foulbrood only infects other hives in the next bee yard down the road. Never let other equipment or hives into your bee yard as it only spreads disease. Get rid of those filthy leather gloves and use the nitrile gloves and change them between every hive. Use a different sanitized hive tool on every hive. NEVER buy used equipment unless you want it for a bonfire. I use oxalic acid fuming once a month spring and summer and for a month and a half starting in October to make sure my winter bees live for 4 to 5 months. Yes winter bees live that long unlike the 21 days of the summer bees. The University of Michigan and the University of Nebraska are your absolute BEST resources for learning about bees. Well my soap box is starting to give way under me. And what the hell does covid have anything to do with beekeeping?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

psm1212 said:


> The OP states why he is asking about COVID vaccination in post #24 above.


Which is:


> I am curious if there is a coorelation of people that believe in TF to their desire to get a covid vaccine. ...........
> it seams ridiculous to me that some people would be so against treating their bees yet so willing to get the vaccine.


Like I said, clearly what I have been doing for years (vaccinating) has been classified as "ridiculous".
So yes... ridiculous.

What are the flu or shingles or COVID vaccines have to do with trying out the TF bee management approaches?


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## treenester (May 19, 2008)

A) Had bees every year - treatment free - except one since 2008. Sometimes as much as 75% losses, sometimes none.
B) Started with top bar hives. Now in 8 frame foundationless mediums. No treatments of any kind. Only started feeding small colonies this year to get them built to 2 boxes.
C) No.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

bendriftin said:


> I am curious if there is a coorelation of people that believe in TF to their desire to get a covid vaccine. I am guessing that there a lot of TF beekeepers that will get a vaccine. Maybe I am way off base but it seams ridiculous to me that some people would be so against treating their bees yet so willing to get the vaccine.


it was a relative question IMO
see if you are a follower or a self thinker, and in general a pro jab/chem or pro immune response.
Ironic those who got the jab seem to think it is an off base question.

O well until the next variant/ mite.

GG


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Gray Goose said:


> it was a relative question IMO
> see if you are a follower or a self thinker, and in general a pro jab/chem or pro immune response.
> Ironic those who got the jab seem to think it is an off base question.
> 
> ...


Mostly agree with you. Not so much "off base" as misplaced. We do not need the kind of of stuff that goes on in Tailgater here!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Mostly agree with you. Not so much "off base" as misplaced. We do not need the kind of of stuff that goes on in Tailgater here!


better word misplaced.

reminds me of the 2 or 3 hive tools I am looking for, Misplaced.

GG


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## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

Well this may not be the correct forum for this, I will admit. It could get political pretty quick. So I will take my thinking somewhere else for now.


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