# Treated with MAQS, mite count still high, now what?



## allan (Jul 7, 2013)

With that mite count I would treat again


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

You may have treated too late for MAQS (or any mite treatment) to save the hive. I would check with the manufacturer of MAQS - they will ask you stuff like where did you put the strips, in what arrangement, and did you do anything special with your SBB? MAQS and other mite treatments are not magic bullets.

Now to answer your questions: Sugar Shakes are better than nothing but not all that accurate as absolute counters. But if you have been doing them consistently and regularly they should let you know about trends. The Mite Away label (instructions for how to use the product - the law) do not address 8 frame medium boxes. In spite of what you read on BeeSource they are not yet recognized as industry standard equipment. MAQS is designed as a 7 day treatment and is supposed to kill 95% of the mites in a hive. As to will this hive survive and should you treat with something else I _*think*_ what you are seeing on your mite drops are the mites that were killed behind cappings that are falling through your sbb as the bees emerge. The DWV is a tad more concerning.

I would have another experienced set of eyes inspect the hive with you. The hive will soon be broodless so you will just need to worry about phoretic mites. Explain what you have done and why you remain concerned for the hive.

Beekeeping is agriculture and as you know there is no guarantee of success. I think the hive is going to be ok with regard to mites. If you are convinced there is still a substantial mite load another treatment may be called for - pay close attention to temperature requirements and the like. As a Master Gardener I can not make pesticide recommendations.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

It's possible that there was brood above the strips that didn't get treated because formic acid vapor I believe is heavier than air, and a big strong hive like that can move a lot of air by fanning. Just a guess.

Where in the hive did you place the strips, and does it have a screened bottom?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I thought the label dosage was 2 strips per brood box?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

the sugar shake will give the same results as an alcohol wash if you double the number. so counted 13 times 2 is 26, a half cup is about 300 bees so you are infected 8 to 9 mites per 100 bees. way too high. review your treatment instuctions and do it again or look for a different treatment, now.... consider calling beterbee and going with a different treatment. betterbee is run by veternarians. sometimes even a good product does not work, try something else.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

mathesonequip said:


> the sugar shake will give the same results as an alcohol wash if you double the number. so counted 13 times 2 is 26, a half cup is about 300 bees so you are infected 8 to 9 mites per 100 bees. way too high. review your treatment instuctions and do it again or look for a different treatment, now.... consider calling beterbee and going with a different treatment. betterbee is run by veternarians. sometimes even a good product does not work, try something else.


Not true regarding doubling sugar shake to get alcohol wash counts.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

Andrew Dewey said:


> Not true regarding doubling sugar shake to get alcohol wash counts.


it is true according to the researchers at the Ontario bee association. this is as of august training by Ontario tech. transfer team, ny beewellness train the trainer program.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

mathesonequip said:


> it is true according to the researchers at the Ontario bee association. this is as of august training by Ontario tech. transfer team, ny beewellness train the trainer program.


I think you misunderstood what you were being told - I could find nothing on this point on either the Ontario Bee Association nor the New York Bee Wellness web sites.

The two tests work on very different mechanisms and results vary wildly depending on how the tests are done.

I looked at the Tech Transfer Team's Web site and their 2014 pdf document "Varroa Mite–Sampling and Monitoring Infestation Levels" makes no mention of sugar shakes.

I can readily imagine samples from the same hive having a 2:1 ratio of results when tested by alcohol wash and sugar shake. But I don't believe that ratio will hold over a large sample size.

Edited to add: I think if there was a relationship such as the one suggested between alcohol wash and sugar shakes it would have been observed and reported on years ago.

The Internet has the reputation of spreading unreliable information about beekeeping. Please double check the source of your information.


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## Mary Beth Reid (May 2, 2014)

I appreciate the answers, thank you. The learning curve this first year has been steep indeed. I think I may have to hire someone to come and look at these girls with me to see what can be done. I don't know anyone near me who would do it gratis. I think I was in a bit of denial earlier this summer about the mite population and I may have indeed waited too long. Actually, my goal is to be treatment free some day, but I see now that that is not that simple. I will call the manufacturer tomorrow to see if they can shed light on what happened. The brood "box" is actually 3 boxes deep. I placed the 2 strips between the 2nd and 3rd boxes and left them in the hive the recommended 7 days. The temps were in the range suggested in the instructions. I'll post an update after I speak with them for any who might be interested. As far as determining mite density, I took a mite workshop this summer with Diana Sammataro, PhD, who gave us some information that I believe was produced by Marla Spivak, etc. that states that under 10% infestation is workable for the bees in northern climates. However, I have read other experts who have that threshold at much lower that 10%. Trying to do the best I can for the bees with the information I have. Which at times, is mind bending. The information, that is.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

mr. dewey.. I respect you as a great beekeeper... the small group of 5 students [in the hive group] that I was in at the nybeewellness training program in august included mark berrinhausen, a.k.a. sqkcrk on this site. there were only 13 in the course total. the first time thru with the sugar shake our in the hive instructor was noted author dr. Lawrence connor. the next day we in the same group repeated the tests including alcohol and ether tests, as well as skills as instructors. the ether shake gave a slightly lower result than the alcohol wash maybe something like 15 percent lower, but close. the second day we were in the hives with les esceles, the head of ont. bee assoc. mark wondered about how many bees in the sample with one quicky sampleing shortcut we were shown, so he started counting bees, the adjustments for actual sample size made everything come out the same. the quick checks are used for checking a whole lot of hives in a hurry. the point is do a count and figure out if there is a problem or how big a problem fast if a commercial yard is being checked... I had the opportunity to be shown a lot of stuff by some of the best of the best so I could share with others..... yeah my source is pretty good.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

Ontario bee recommends treatment at 1 to 2 in the spring and 3 to 4 in august, that is mites per 100 bees, alcohol wash or adjusted to sample type. this treatment number is lower than others recommend. your numbers are up in the big bad problem range, [likely lose them over the winter] for ny. a good place to look for more information is randy olliver's site, scientific beekeeping. I heard him speak about a year and a half ago. I recall dr. Connors comment from august about a hive that showed 21 mites per hundred hive "dead hive flying", we closed it up and did not go back to it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Don, don't you think that w/ treatment recommendation numbers like that and the wide variation in sample result numbers that even finding one mite in a sample suggests one aught to treat? And if I found no mites in a sample, I'd check again.

I was doing some sampling lately and couldn't keep the bees in the jar long enough to spray them w/ ether. Even though I was swirling the jar, which, in my experience, usually does the job.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

It's pretty rare to find a 1 mite count this time of year, I would be more thrilled than suspicious, though I probably would like to see a confirmation. I use either an alcohol shake or an ether roll depending on what's in the truck with me that day. I don't see widely varying results. My method is (assuming all hives in a location have been treated in a like manner) to take a few bees out of 4 separate hives to make a single 1/2 cup sample and do two of those per yard. I use the results to decide what to do with the location in its entirety.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

That seems like an obvious way to get an average for a yard. After you said it. Thanks Jim.


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## Mary Beth Reid (May 2, 2014)

Update as promised. Spoke with rep at manufacturer. After giving her all the info about my hive and the treatment as I administered it, her thoughts were that I probably placed the strips in the right place, but it's possible that the mite level was so high that even with a 80-90% mite kill, it just wasn't enough. She also suggested that perhaps because I did not use a queen excluder that the queen had laid brood in the upper boxes and the treatment did not reach that brood. She suggested treating again, this time with one strip and suggested that I place it in the same place as I had before, between the 2nd and 3rd box, this time right in the middle of the box. I am planning to do that today as we are having mild temperatures this week. I realize that for most of you more experienced folks that this is all obvious, but for a greenhorn such as myself, well, I am getting quite the education. Posting this update for any like me who are still learning about dealing with varroa. Definitely learned that you need to stay ahead of them. I am also educating myself about the use of OAV for the future.


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## Mary Beth Reid (May 2, 2014)

Hi again. Well it is about 2 weeks post my 2nd tx with MAQS. Mite drops were huge the first few days. But/and they are still uncomfortably high. 24 hr drops for the last 2 days respectively were 56 and 75. I realize some of these may still be from brood emerging but I was hoping the numbers would start going down. It's getting a bit cold now to go into the brood nest to do a sugar shake. The hive seems healthy, very busy bringing in pollen and strongly defending the entrance against the yellow jackets that have been dogging them. I even saw a nice orientation flight this morning. But I am still worried about the mites.

My plan was to treat with OAV at end of Nov but now I am wondering if I should wait that long. I don't want to over treat this hive, but I don't want to lose it either. My question is how long after treating with MAQS should I wait to treat with OAV? Or is treating again this season just too much? Has anyone out there treated with both in the same season and if so what were your results? Thanks again for any advice.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

OAV asap.


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## Mary Beth Reid (May 2, 2014)

Thanks Mark.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Mary Beth,

I'm up north of Albany and have had nearly the same experience with the MAQS treatment this year.

Two strips (correctly placed) on Aug 1. Modest mite drop during and sortly afterwards (my hives weren't loaded but I was at treatment threshold and I wanted to protect the winter bees.)

Numbers watched closely (rolls) in about 10-day intervals and then in mid-September, they rose sharply again to treatment threshold. Because it was getting late I called manufacturer and was advised, like you, to try a one strip treatment after after checking for where the brood might be. Did that on Septmeber 15. Modest drops again, and I kept rolling and as of this week I'm at the limit again.

Feh!

So I am going to start a three-dose OAV tomorrow or Sunday am. I, too, was planning on just a clean-up round in late November, but don't want to wait that long.

I loathe treating, but I will not let my girls die because I hate doing it. And I'm not goiong to just treat once and figure I'm good to go w/o rechecking frequently. The wretched mites are fierce this year!

I'd be interested to hear how things go for you if you care to post a follow-up.

Enj.


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## Mary Beth Reid (May 2, 2014)

Hi Enj,

I did my first OAV tx yesterday and will follow up with 2 more treatments at 5 day intervals. I'm sorry to hear but also glad that I am not alone in my experience with MAQS. Not sure if it speaks to the efficacy of MAQS or the strength of the mites this year. The girls seemed unfazed by the treatment, except for the ones who were out and could not get back in. I also hate the idea of treating, but cannot sit by and watch the bees die without doing something. I am really hoping to have better results with the OAV than I did with MAQS. I will post more after the final treatment.

Best,

Mary Beth


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## Ray4852 (May 27, 2011)

I'm having the same problem with my pads too. I started mite treatments in June. One more treatment in mid August. My mite count was still to high. I wonder if the company cut back on the strength of these pads. Since mid august I treated 6 times with oxalic acid vapor. I still have mites, but mite numbers are way down. This stuff is so cheap it kills mites every time I use it. I plan to treat till the weather gets to cold to use it. I hope to clean most of my mites out by December.


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## afg (Oct 20, 2014)

Same issue here. I installed an Italian package in late May on one year old comb. By September bees were covering most of the frames in 2 deeps and 3 mediums. I treated for mites with MAQS (2 strips) the week of September 8th. Temperatures were within the suggested range. I removed 2 of the mediums and extracted honey from them the first week of October. I have a screened bottom board with a tray. Last week I checked mite counts on the tray and found about 30 in a 24 hour period. This is a very populous colony but that number seemed rather high. After gathering some opinions I decided to do another 2 strip treatment last week. That was a recommendation from a "bee health expert" from the manufacturer of MAQS. She said that I had a 50/50 chance of them surviving the winter. I figured they had a slightly better chance of survival with a treatment, than without, so I did it. Time will tell. Last year I did a single 2 strip treatment in early September on a 1st year colony started from a package. They died in late February.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

I have 8-frame mediums. In August I treated with 1 strip of MAQS and arrived at a very low mite count. By mid-september I had to re-treat becuase the count was high again. I was winterizing everything and did a 72 hour mite drop just for the heck of it and freaked out to have about 80 per 3 day period per hive...

I added an APIVAR treatment that has to stay in place for 6 weeks 2 days ago....let's see what happens.


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## Mary Beth Reid (May 2, 2014)

Quick update. Tx # 3 was on Sat. Mite drops on all 3 OAV tx were significant. I just pulled the board (was out of town yesterday) and stopped counting after 400 and some (my eyes start to get crossed). And I hadn't covered half the board. I'm guessing there were over 1K. So even on the third tx, the drops are still very high. And this on a hive that was treated twice with MAQS and now 3 times with OAV. This is very concerning to me. I am wondering if I should do one more 5 day treatment. Does anyone treat 4 times at 5 day intervals? On another note, the bees have been very active the last few warm days. Lots of pollen being brought in (don't know where they are getting it, but they are finding it) and strongly defending against the few remaining yellow jackets. I don't want to give up on them!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Keep on treating till the mite counts are virtually zero. Any harm from extra treatments will be less than the effect of leaving those mites in the hive to overwinter. You are probably getting rid of your neighbors mites now! I am really isolated and have not had troubles with mite counts resurging after brooding has shut down.


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## Mary Beth Reid (May 2, 2014)

Thanks Frank. I appreciate the feedback.


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