# Got a Visit from the Bee Inspector.



## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Waterbird17 said:


> What is the best brand of mite treatment. Maybe one with the least impact??? Organic???
> 
> Thanks guys.


Tell him that you are going 'small cell' by letting them build their own comb.

This makes it to where the bees can naturally better defend against such critters - for one thing - the bee larvae hatch two days sooner than the large cell and this cuts down significantly on the mites being able to reproduce.

Check out Michael Bush's info (although I'm sure the inspector will claim it's anecdotal):
*
Natural Cell Size - And it's implications to beekeeping and Varroa mites*

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm


Also

*Four simple steps to healthier bees - 
Common sense choices to keep your bees alive*

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm

.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

Also, I highly recommend listening to all these archived podcasts from this site which promotes natural bee keeping. These interviews are excellent:

(There are about 3 pages in this archive, so be sure to click on "PREVIOUS" once at the bottom of page):

*Organically Managed Beekeeping Podcast and Forums*

http://somdbeekeeper.com/

.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> What is the best brand of mite treatment.


Get some nuc equipment and start to over-winter more bees. If you want one hive in the Spring, I would have three colonies going into the Winter... 

Try to get "summer queens" from a local / regional source.

I don't use any chemicals, and I'm not sure if I did any sugar dusting last year... My bees are are mostly from Michael Palmer queens or queen daughters of MP's and some Russians.

Start some nucs!

I do happen to use small-cell as well, but make no claims to its effectiveness in reducing mites.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

You do have a choice, that is what Memorial Day is all about.Millions of people have served and some have died, so you can make that choice. I don't treat and never have. It is your choice not some bee inspector's.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Water, I think you have the right approach on it. I'm not going to say the inspector is wrong as he was probably told to encourage people to treat whether they need it or not. It's probably the state/county's way to think they're being proactive and minimizing infestations even though, from a pest-management perspective it's not the best practice. I believe in treating, but not un-necessarily. You have to think about the issue as a management issue, and part of the mite problem is the way bees are kept too. Part of it is due to not being able to completely shut down the hive, clean everything up and start with ideal conditions every year.
If you look at the mite problem, I don't believe in true "resistance". I would say mite tolerant at best. True resistance would be zero mite reproduction in your hive. 
Also, you need to take people who claim "non treatment" with a grain of salt. If they're doing brood breaks, making splits, using drone comb.... guess what that is.... that's treatment. That is manipulating your bees to kill mites. Also, everyone's situation is going to be different. Sometimes true-non treatment works, but there's so many factors involved we'll never know why. It could be the bee genetics, the local mite population genetics, maybe there's some plant pollen or nectar the bees are feeding on that is toxic to the mites, maybe there's a local fungus/bacteria that kills mites, maybe there's something their equipment was treated with that kills mites.... I think you're on the right track, just find or make a management strategy that works for you.


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## HiveAtYourHome (Aug 16, 2011)

*Re: Bee Inspector Go treatment free but if you must "treat as necessary" go IPM*



Waterbird17 said:


> I am all down for organic, natural, let em bee, however if there is something that is wrong then I will treat them as necessary.


So taking your statement to the inspector as your philosophy, sounds like your current view is IPM. I practice true treatment free (although as I do some walkaway splits & shake artificial swarms for breeding and anti-urban swarming, you could claim that as a side affect I do something that doesn't meet forum guidelines for "treatment" but JRG13 points out is helping treat for mites unintentionally.

So I encourage treatment free using local stock and foundationless brood area, but if you are looking to "treat as necessary" look up Intergrated Pest Managment (IPM) it may be "natural", "Unofficial Organic" it won't be treatment free. I think it does long term damage to treat and would rather suffer losses of bees that are so week to need treatment. But the premise of IPM would be measuring the mite loads (shake cup or mite drop) and using least damaging treatment if needed (i.e. essential oil/thymol, or acid fume/formic acid.)

I think you should change your mind and listen to the great non-treatment approaches listed above, but to be fair to your question, if you continue to want to "treat if necessary" lookup IPM with bees (a good IPM pdf book for free is Beekeeping basics http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/FreePubs/pdfs/agrs93.pdf.) Check out IPM on page 49. 

Principles of IPM
• Decision-making process based on understanding the pest, the host, and their interactions
• Based on thresholds
• Uses multiple tactics
• Must be safe, profitable, and environmentally friendly

To answer what is "most organic" or however you phrased it, I think the essential oils less drastic then formic acid, so maybe Api-Life Var, but while I've seen others use it I have no experience with it as I went treatment free from start. I have seen bees flee the hive from formic acid though and hear the queen breaks laying for a bit, hence more drastic. The claims by the companies on % killed give formic a slight edge, but on studies of effectiveness I've seen Api-Life Var have a slight edge.

All that being said to answer your question, but please ignore it and follow the link to Bush and the podcast links others put above.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Go to the treatment free forum. Read the definition of terms first, they are not "per Webster". 

We use non chemical methods to treat mites and CCD. It can be done, but is much more expensive that the synthetic(man-made) chemical methods.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Waterbird17 said:


> He told me that there was no doubt that they would need to be medicated for mites and I pretty much have no choice.
> 
> Is this true ???


I don't know for NJ but I would find out. I didn't think any state had any restrictions for mite load.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

the bee inspector sees everybodys bees every day. he sees what works and what doesnt. without treatment your bees will probably die in 2-3 yrs at the best. we have not treated for 2 yrs in our present cycle but we are not treatment free, just lucky. we make a few nucs each yr, also most of our hives get a break from the brood cycle which helps. some of our hives hives have to be treated soon. there are a lot of soft treatments available today. stay away from apistan and you should do well.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

beeware10 said:


> without treatment your bees will probably die in 2-3 yrs at the best. l.


Admittedly, I'm new at bee keeping.

But, given your statement above, how are feral colonies able to survive treatment-free?

I'm not trying to be a smart-*** or anything like that. I am really trying to find out the truth from all of you people who are experienced.

.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

they are replaced by swarms that happen upon vacant nests. we just got back from sc to bring back hives for summer. we were 2-3 weeks later than we wanted because of older parents health problems. for every swarm lost where did they go. probably some tree that someone thought to be feral? no way to verify.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>He told me that there was no doubt that they would need to be medicated for mites and I pretty much have no choice. 

And I haven't medicated mine for a decade... You DO have a choice.


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## Waterbird17 (Apr 30, 2012)

wow, Im a little over whelmed by all the responses. Thanks everybody I really appreciate the help. 

right now I have a package of Italians installed 11 days ago, they have capped brood and probably half or two thirds of a deep super drawn out. right now that are not being fed however I am picking up feeders and starting that very soon. I also have 2 Nucs of Carniolans coming in very soon. 

The bees I have now are building on mostly wax coated plastic foundation and some wax foundation. 

He said wait until the brood box is fully drawn out and then add another deep super and continue feeding until that super was drawn out as well. and that a honey crop would be very unlikely for this year. 

I thing that foundation-less frames are out of the picture for this year. as much as I would like to try that some day. I think that the essential oils are the treatment that might work best for me but im still not sure. 



Again I appreciate all the responses, and the more and more I get into Beekeeping Im finding that everybody has their own way of doing things and they are ALL different so Im enjoying my time learning from everybody I meet. 

Thanks again,

Al


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

there is a fortune to be made from treatment free beekeeping. look up the science of university tests and find one to verify it. sometimes the more you learn about something the more confused ya get. this may be one of them. good luck with your beekeeping.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Bees die if you treat or not - that is a fact not an opinion. If you want your bee keeping to be sustainable then you need to make increase and go into every season with enough colonies to be viable even when some die. This is as important as your choice of managment practices. Or more.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I think waterbird17 was talking about the mite factor. beekeeping was easy before they got here.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

PatBeek said:


> Admittedly, I'm new at bee keeping.
> 
> But, given your statement above, how are feral colonies able to survive treatment-free?
> 
> .


What makes you think feral bees have been surviving just fine in recent years? That's a myth. Simply put, they haven't. They have been dying off at an alarming rate.

Sure there are some colonies that have survived for years and many more that have simply been re-colonized by the many swarms from managed hives. 

The simplistic "feral colonies survive" argument is without basis in fact. 

Wayne


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The simplistic "feral colonies survive" argument is without basis in fact. 

I would say the simplistic the feral colonies all died is without basis in fact. I find a lot of feral colonies and know many people who are overrun with requests to remove them.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#QueenPrefersNaturalCombs


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't know that any blanket statement about feral bees can be made w/ any accuracy any more so than any blanket statement about managed colonies. I can say that I know of a cavity which has had bees in it for the last 12 years or more. During the years of my observing the entrance I have seen one year which I can recall when the colony must have died. And then it was reoccupied the next year.

So, I think it is safe to say that feral hives get occupied by swarms. Those colonies may survive for a number of years, casting off swarms most likely, and then they die. Getting reoccupied the next year or some year after that.

I have a maple tree hive in my front yard that has been unoccupied for a couple of years now. Maybe I should let some of my home yd hives swarm?


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## Bonnie Botkins (Sep 13, 2011)

The NJ Inspector taught the disease and pest portion at my bee keeping class, he's a wonderful teacher, but I did notice a bit of eye rolling and impatience when students asked questions about small cell, regressed bees, TBH's and the like. Choose your own path, lots of bee keepers are doing well with no-treatments. I just bought 2 packages of no treatments bees and the bee keepers told me he had a 90% over winter survival. Thats pretty good no matter what path you choose.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> So, I think it is safe to say that feral hives get occupied by swarms. Those colonies may survive for a number of years, casting off swarms most likely, and then they die. Getting reoccupied the next year or some year after that.


How different is the cycle for a managed hive under the manipulations of human beings with all their potions? Don't colonies die off and get replaced at a tremendous cost. Why not let nature do it for free.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

@Bonnie - You are absolutely correct - choose your own path - but be ready to accept the consequences. We had a mild winter this past year and I'd expect most any knowledgeable beekeeper in the NJ area to have 10% losses. Part of the eye rolling on the part of the inspector is that there are very few individuals who are skilled enough to do well regularly without treatments. No doubt the inspector has seen a lot of dead treatment free bees. There is much romance about treatment free and many folks ignore or don't hear about the losses that go hand in hand with selecting for resistant stock or regressing cell size. While it is not impossible for a back yard beekeeper with two hives to announce they are going to be treatment free with two purchased packages and be successful, it is very likely the bees will be dead before two years have passed. Inspectors get to see lots of people who haven't a clue what they are doing try treatment free only to complain that their bees have died. Now treated bees often die too, but Inspectors tend to have more sympathy for people who recognize the problems they have and attempt to deal with them.

If your hive succumbs to viruses related to having too many mites and the inspector told you to deal with your mites or the hive would die it is hard to have much sympathy. Too many people think that being treatment free is doing nothing. For those not starting out with genetics known to be treatment free, treatment free is a tough road to follow, and I will be so bold as to say, one not to be undertaken casually.

As disclosure - I have hives that are treated, Russians that are not, and some newly started hives from packages from B Weaver that will not be treated. I want treatment free to work. I just hate to see beginners make it sound overly simple.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Bonnie Botkins said:


> The NJ Inspector taught the disease and pest portion at my bee keeping class,


You are going to be hard pressed to find a Michael Bush type as a state inspector, yet who would be better qualified? State inspectors are essentially commercial operators that have had slash and burn ingrained into their training.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You are going to be hard pressed to find a Michael Bush type as a state inspector, yet who would be better qualified? State inspectors are essentially commercial operators that have had slash and burn ingrained into their training. They know no other way.


If this is what you truly believe I feel sorry for you.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Wow, the the similarities between the topics of bee keeping and health/wellness/medicating/vaccinating are astonishing. In fact, I got interested in bee keeping because I run with a group of people who don't believe in vaccinating or using medicines other than emergency situations.

But the bottom line is, whether or not medications/treatments/vaccinations, etc, "work" for bees and/or humans - the fact remains that we are creating creatures that cannot survive on their own. We are weakening everything and distorting DNA in many cases.

I have two unvaccinated sons. One is 4 and one is 6. They have zero chronic autoimmune or neurological issues which have become epidemic in children over the past 20 years. They have no allergies, asthma, arthritis, cancer, diabetes, eczema, leaky gut syndrome, crohn's disease, MS, seizures, ear infections, lupus, autism, etc, etc, etc. 

If you ask most people who have kids who are unvaccinated, they will give you the very same testimonial. 

Some of you may say that you were vaxed as a child and you are ‘ok’ - but the vaccination schedule has almost quadrupled since the 80s. Admittedly children are getting other assaults through their sugared/aspartamed/GMO food, fluoride, and other toxins and poisons, but the vaccines are largely responsible for this toxic overload we are now seeing. 

We all realize that emergency medicine is essential and a blessing - but for everyday health issues - go to your pesticide-free, non-GMO garden for your health - not your doctor.

And for bees, we should also consider the same philosophy, IMHO.

(OK, I'll stand back and watch the fireworks begin .....cringes)

.


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## Bonnie Botkins (Sep 13, 2011)

I did not go into treatment free with rose colored glasses on, and know very well that just stopping the treatments is not the key to success, mite resistant genetics, survival of the fittest, hygenic behaviors are the key. I except and expect some losses, basically good riddence in the gene pool. Really who are we to think we know better than mother nature.


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

Smells like the same can of worms.

IMHO we learn from one year to the next. More accurately, we learn from what we did the year before. After gaining success, embracing change becomes difficult and the methods used must be the best, for everyone. That often leads to incessant and unhelpful bantering.

I suggest using a comfortable mite count method. Listen to your bees first, then pick and choose guidance that suits your habits.


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

PatBeek said:


> I have two unvaccinated sons. One is 4 and one is 6. They have zero chronic autoimmune or neurological issues which have become epidemic in children over the past 20 years. They have no allergies, asthma, arthritis, cancer, diabetes, eczema, leaky gut syndrome, crohn's disease, MS, seizures, ear infections, lupus, autism, etc, etc, etc.


I truly wish you the best and am confident no one will provide better care for your boys than you.

I've kept bees for about a decade and we ate most of our harvest. Last month my boy got stung by my bee on the top of his head and blew up like a balloon within a half hour. Two hours later we left the ER and now keep EpiPens close. My neighbors are Herbalife advocates along with the natural lifestyle. A virus triggered an autoimmune response in their beautiful eight year old blond boy that swelled his spinal column. After four months in the IC unit and ten months in therapy, he came home with a feeding tube. He now can eat normally, but lost the use of his arm and difficulties continue. My other neighbor raised their children on unpasteurized milk as part of their natural lifestyle. Their girl joined his brother's bio-gas business in Kenya last year. She just busted her hip and leg in a motorcycle accident. Only option there is exploratory surgery. The silver lining is she didn't need a transfusion since most of the people they know there are HIV positive.

My boys experienced issues in elementary school. After a string of "professionals", an objective study revealed ADD like the nose on your face for three generations of us. Both boys now have fantastic grades, made leaps in social skills and nothing is in their way. Yes, the medicines help.

Everything requires balance.


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## heus (Apr 16, 2012)

My late great grandmother's old house has had a honeybee hive in the attic in the same spot for at least 40 years and maybe more. I dont know of any swarms that were ever seen coming or going. This is in reference to feral hives not vaccinations. Sorry


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

Life is all about choices.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

scdw43 said:


> Life is all about choices.


Amen.

I'm not here to force my way on anyone and the govt dang sure isn't going to force their "treatments" on my boys or bees.

Again, emergency medicine in the west can't be beat. But I don't want my kids on an asthma inhalers, eczema medicines or having to buy them Cancer Barbies........it's what works for me and my family. Some people love going to the doctor every week and buying prescriptions. I don't.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

PatBeek said:


> Some people love going to the doctor every week and buying prescriptions. I don't.


I am sure nobody likes that but they made previous choices that forced them into it at a later time in their life. Modern medicine is truly a marvel. Too much of a good thing is bad.

Yes Andrew, I do believe... do you think there are Michael Bush types as state bee inspectors? Are there any that are not or were not involved in commercial operations?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You are going to be hard pressed to find a Michael Bush type as a state inspector, yet who would be better qualified? State inspectors are essentially commercial operators that have had slash and burn ingrained into their training. They know no other way.


What do you base this statement on? Slash and burn? What do you mean by that?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Why not let nature do it for free.


Go ahead. Just be sure to be noninterventionist in your approach.

Aren't you interveneing by splitting as you have been doing?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

throrope said:


> Last month my boy got stung by my bee on the top of his head and blew up like a balloon within a half hour. Two hours later we left the ER and now keep EpiPens close.
> Everything requires balance.


Pretty normal response... don't you think? Same thing happens to me. It's when they don't swell and airways restrict that you have a problem.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> .
> 
> Yes Andrew, I do believe... do you think there are Michael Bush types as state bee inspectors? Are there any that are not or were not involved in commercial operations?


Our inspectors here in NC do not remind me commercial types at all.... more like academics. All seem tightly aligned with the entomology dept at NCSU. Guess that is a good thing.... I would not mind a commercial guy or two on there.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

PatBeek said:


> I'm not here to force my way on anyone and the govt dang sure isn't going to force their "treatments" on my boys or bees.


Please be aware the inspector recommended treatment, not required it. This was not the government FORCING anyone to treat their bees, a rather too emotive and inaccurate statement.

It was an inspector with considerable experience, giving sound advice. The OP can follow it, or not. If not, probably to his cost, although that's not a certainty either.


And Ace. "State inspectors are essentially commercial operators that have had slash and burn ingrained into their training. They know no other way". I've seen you drop a few humdingers but that one is one of the most uneducated statements I've seen on this forum.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You are going to be hard pressed to find a Michael Bush type as a state inspector, yet who would be better qualified? State inspectors are essentially commercial operators that have had slash and burn ingrained into their training. They know no other way.


Your Mentor was formerly a State Apiary Inspector. I wonder how he would react to such a statement. Other than him and me, how many Apiary Inspectors, or former Apiary Inspectors do you know?

Whether anyone else saw it this way, I looked on my employment as an Apiary Inspector as doing service to the beekeepers of the State of New York. In most cases I was greeted w/ "Where ya been? I haven't seen an Inspector in ages. There out back. Help yourself, if I can't be there."

You couldn't afford Michael Bush as an Apiary Inspector. But there were and are those of us who were and are willing to work w/, teach, and show beekeepers what we know and have learned over the years and are even willing to listen to alternative ideas and innane questions for the umpteenth time.

All I have to give you is myself. If you don't want what I have to give, so be it. Let me know if you change your mind.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't think I have said anything that either of you should take offense at. Are you both not commercial? Aren't you both in favor of medicating bees? And yes, you were both state inspectors at one time. Isn't that my point?



> I've seen you drop a few humdingers but that one is one of the most uneducated statements I've seen on this forum.


Please educate me. I value your opinion.

Maybe I could have said it another way but what isn't untrue about my statement. It would be no different than asking someone that has been involved in big Ag all their life on how to deal with a weed problem. The answer is going to be medicate they know no other way. Please help me on rewording what I said. Make it politically acceptable.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Waterbird, back to the question in hand and the overwhelming responses. It is tricky at first to try to sort out what will work. One tip I have is to sort the responses I get to questions by region. Beekeeping is a little like Real Estate: location, location, location. If you have a lot of responses to advice you have sought and are stuck between choices go for the one that comes from a beekeeper in your region.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Make it politically acceptable.


There ya go. What does politics have to do w/ anything?

When have I ever told anyone to medicate? I use mite treatments and, if asked, advise on how to use them using my experience. As an Inspector I was prevented from making management recommendations. It was against Policy. I don't use, nor recommend the use of, TM or Tylosin, profolactic treatments for prevention of AFB. Those that use them I don't condemn either.

When have I ever slashed and burned, whatever that means?

I have a degree from OSU/ATI in Commercial Beekeeping, an Associates Degree. Which I got before becoming an Apiary Inspector. But, it did not make me a Commercial Beekeeper. I made myself a Commercial Beekeeper by buildiung my business over the years, while being an Apiary Inspector. Working along side Commercial Beekeepers who I respect from time to time. While also spending 40 hours per week serving beekeepers by checking their hives for pests and diseases of honeybees. Giving workshops on identification of AFB and how to handle it when found.

To say someone like my self and my fellow current and former Apiary Inspectors know no other way is insulting, as if we are androids or something, unable to think for ourselves taking in information as it develops and incorporating it into our knowledge base.

Mostly I would like to say that you have opinions not based on facts. Something so often true amungst internet "experts". I have said it many times, you are brand new at beekeeping. Give it some time. Learn and experience before you open your mouth.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

> He told me that there was no doubt that they would need to be medicated for mites and I pretty much have no choice.
> Is this true ???
> What is the best brand of mite treatment. Maybe one with the least impact??? Organic???


If you're not doing anything commercial with the bees, than you do have a choice. Otherwise you need to use standard practices for the paperwork.

For example:

You could use VSH queens.

You could also use a natural comb or small cell approach.

You could use essential oils (I have peppermint candy drops on hand because it's easier).

Most importantly, you can allow your hives to go queenless by splitting, etc., to break the brood cycle and knock down mite levels.

You can use all of the above.

In short, you aren't helpless against mites, even if you aren't 'treating'.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

wlc what are standard practices for paper work. maybe a nyc thing? all of the items you listed can be used by commercial guys.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

When I say paperwork, you'll likely need to provide proof of due diligence when moving hives/bees across state lines. Proof of treatment for AFB, nosema, mites would be wise.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

not required. been moving bees across state lines for 40 yrs. In nys the state inspects a percentage of your bees and give you a permit for the state your going to. pretty simple.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I take it that you have also been treating for AFB, etc., for many years.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> Proof of treatment for AFB, nosema, mites would be wise.


I have never know this to be required.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> I take it that you have also been treating for AFB, etc., for many years.


I thought you were an intelligent enough person to not assume anything. Or did you mean to place a question mark at the end of that sentence?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

we dust 1 time in the fall with tm. we take the bees south in dec so that the mite cycle is broken. we have not treated for mites in two years. we are not treatment free. If they show signs of a high mite drop we would use a soft treatment. after two years we watch them real close. maybe your thoughts of commercial guys is they feed drugs all the time. very few commercial beekeepers fit this profile. also you said treat for afb. If it is found it is burned but we have not had a case in over 20 yrs.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Why would NYS bee inspectors allow a beekeeper to move 'untreated' hives across state lines by providing them paperwork?

Or, maybe, it just goes to show that the system is broken.

NYS should allow beekeepers to self certify if there is no requirement for proof of treatment to get paperwork for moving hives across state lines.

Otherwise, it's just a waste of time.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ace your statement was not polically incorrect, nor was I offended by it cos I hear similar from brand new beeks who don't know anything yet all the time, I'm quite used to it. But the statement was just plain wrong.

You've asked us to educate you. Too much work I'm afraid, but let me ask you this. Since commercial beeks are trained in slash and burn and know no other way, educate me. What is it you know about bees, that they don't know?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

why would you treat a healthy hive? when I inspected for nys we had to inspect 100% of the hives. now something like 20% of hives are inspected before issuing a permit. the whole system is broke. the inspection money should go to clubs for education for new beekeepers. a commercial guy making a living off bees is not a source of afb. new beginners buying used equip is the main source. I have burned a lot of commercial bees due to a local beginner.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Why would you treat a 'healthy' hive?

There's no way that anyone can say a hive is healthy just by looking. Spores from bee pathogens are almost certainly in every hive out there. Viruses and other bee pathogens/pests are firmly established in the environment itself.

You treat according to a calendar not because it's a sure thing.

You do it because that's the only way to assure others of due dilligence.

But, I think that because of budget cuts, etc., it makes alot more sense to allow for self certification. Better yet, just chuck the whole requirement and allow for the free movement of bees.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

there must be something in the nyc water. I give up.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

There's must be something wrong with your water. Our water is just fine.

Look at it this way, if I was a commercial guy that wanted to buy nucs from someone, I'd ask for treatment information/logs.

That's due dilligence.

I've managed a business for 2 decades, so I do know what it means.

If they don't treat for AFB, nosema, mites, etc., I'd pass on em. There's too much money involved.

Inspectors should look at it the same way. There's too much at stake. But, that's not the way it is in NYS.

The OP in Jersey may be in a different situation. NJ inspectors may have more authority.

But, I don't know that for a fact.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

You hit the nail on the head.

For all you drinking the "treatment free" coolaid(and we do not use chemicals to treat for mites), be aware that I earned the "crazy" moniker for predicting that there will be only commercial treatment free beekeepers in a decade or so. It is not mites that are killing the bees, they are just a vector. There is nothing that can be done cheaply, other than with chemicals, to treat what is actually killing them.

Crazy Roland


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Waterbird17 said:


> II said I would only medicate if they need it. He told me that there was no doubt that they would need to be medicated for mites and I pretty much have no choice.
> 
> Is this true ???
> 
> ...


Oxalic Acid. Simple, cheap, organic, very effective, and benign.


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

I second cleaning your frame top bars with wood bleach it works


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> Why would NYS bee inspectors allow a beekeeper to move 'untreated' hives across state lines by providing them paperwork?
> 
> Or, maybe, it just goes to show that the system is broken.
> 
> ...


Do you think beekeepers should be required to treat their hives for diseases and pests? Or do you think beekeepers traveling from one State to another should beshown to have maintained a certain level of healthy colonies of bees?

When moving colonies of honeybees across State lines, the State of origin is supposed to Inspect a beekeepers colonies to assure the health of those colonies. This is done by inspection of the colonies to determine whether those things which States regulates are in compliance. That being, whether colonies are or are not infected w/ AFB. No one demands that colonies be treated, just that the disease isn't visibly present.

Some States require that loads of bees be free of fireants. California, for example. Small hive beetle is regulated by some States. Some States don't allow any comb to be brought into the State. Alabama I believe. At one time semi loads of beehives were not allowed to stop in NC, or else they were burned. Supposedly.

I do know that at one time beehives traveling through NC were required to be double netted. I know someone who had to turn back to SC and get a second set of nets before he could go North again. NC is hard to get around.

So, I don't see what your hang up is about treating. Being healthy and treating are not the same thing. Though, one could maintain the other I guess. Isn't being healthy better?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> There's no way that anyone can say a hive is healthy just by looking.
> 
> You treat according to a calendar not because it's a sure thing.
> 
> Better yet, just chuck the whole requirement and allow for the free movement of bees.


To the best of our ability, yes we can. Otherwise, no one would be able to sell bees to anyone else unless they were medicated and treated under supervision of some sort of inspector. Totally rediculous, expensive and unnecassary.

There is no way anyone can say a hive is healthy? Then there must also be no way to say you or I are healthy. Maybe we are, maybe we aren't. But we appear so, for the most part. Yet we carry pathogens.

"You treat according to a calendar not because it's a sure thing."? Do you do so? How do you explain those who do treat and still come down w/ AFB? Are the rest of their hives unhealthy also, being in proximity of each other at one time or another?

"self certification"? Pretty much what we have in the East now anyway. NYS is required to inspect and certify the health of bees traveling to other States. They do that by inspecting 10% of what a beekeeper says he is transporting. If I look at only 10% of the colonies in an Apiary, what are the chances of finding a diseased colony? Pretty slim. How about 40 out of 400?

So, being as it is my livelihood, I burn any cases of AFB I find. I also challenge anyone to find any AFB in my outfit. I would appreciate and benefit from a thourough inspection. NYS can't afford to do it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

spunky said:


> I second cleaning your frame top bars with wood bleach it works


For what?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Nabber86 said:


> Oxalic Acid. Simple, cheap, organic, very effective, and benign.





spunky said:


> I second cleaning your frame top bars with wood bleach it works


And not approved for use as a miticide in the US. The cleaning your frame top bars "claim" is ultra transparent and doesn't pass the smell test.

Beekeepers seem to share the general populations fascination with the chemical industry as we search for a product that will kill mites and leave bees alive. And then we wonder why there are increased regulations aimed at keeping honey pure.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Waterbird17 said:


> I said I would only medicate if they need it. He told me that there was no doubt that they would need to be medicated for mites and I pretty much have no choice.
> 
> Is this true ???
> 
> Thanks guys.


Is that what he said? He didn't mean you were required to treat for mites, did he? Of course you have a choice. You always have a choice. Choosing to go along w/ what someone recommends, or not, is a choice. I doubt that NJ REQUIRES you to treat your colony(s) for mites. Mites have never been requlated by Apiary Inspection Programs. You can have as many as you want. NYS has never required mite treatment, I doubt NJ does either.

MiteAway Quick Strips (aka MAQS) are supposed to work well. A formic acid product which can be used anytime temps are adequate. Pretty much "organic".


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> What do you base this statement on? Slash and burn?


Slash and burn is a medical phrase for treating cancer, actually it is slash, burn and poison. It refers to surgically removing the infected area, radiation and chemo. I shouldn't use phrases that everyone doesn't understand. We were talking about medicating so it just popped out.

I apologize for the insulting phrase and I have removed it. What I said was not what I meant. Please forgive.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> What is it you know about bees, that they don't know?


Part of knowing is believing and logical thinking. "They" may know that chemical treatments will not work in the long run but they don't want to believe it because of the economics. I am not saying I wouldn't do the same in their shoes but I am not in their shoes and there are a lot of beekeepers who are not in their shoes.

To give you a direct answer to what I know about bees vs. "they" is simple: They know everything and I know nothing. I expect to learn a little more but as the scale goes I don't believe I will know much above nothing compared to what they know. If it is too much work on your part to change that I understand.

Mark, if you take prescription drugs to control your blood pressure and cholesterol do you appear healthy? Are you? What about having surgery to control your weight, do you look healthy? Are you? It really is difficult to tell health by appearance alone.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Slash and burn is a medical phrase for treating cancer,...
> 
> I apologize for the insulting phrase and I have removed it. What I said was not what I meant. Please forgive.


Inapplicable analogy in my opinion. As you now recognize it was inappropriately used.

You are forgiven. I respect someone who asks for forgiveness. Until the next time.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Acebird said:


> It really is difficult to tell health by appearance alone.


With honey bees, no it is not. It is very easy infact. This is why it is good to keep notes on the hives for a few years, in a diary or a calendar book or on the computer or in a coil note book.

Walking up to a hive and popping the lid, I can tell right away if there is a problem. It will take a few minutes to diagnose the problem due to having to inspect the hive. Getting to the point of being able to diagnosis a hive takes time and experience, but soon it will become as easy. . As in all things there is a learning curve...one just has to want to learn and be observant. It becomes part of you. It is part of the job to know, and tell the difference between a healthy hive and a sick hive...it is what one signs up for when they purchase livestock or pets. 

For a person with a single hive, yes it might be difficult without another hive to compare to...this is why it is recommended to have two hives especially at start up, so you can compare . But soon if one is obsevant, seeing is knowing


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Part of knowing is believing and logical thinking.
> 
> Mark, if you take prescription drugs to control your blood pressure and cholesterol do you appear healthy? Are you? What about having surgery to control your weight, do you look healthy? Are you? It really is difficult to tell health by appearance alone.


Believing w/out knowing is best left to Religion, not beekeeping or just about any other part of life, imo.

What is health regarding the average human being? I have heard of marathon runners falling dead from heart attacks. Certainly they are heathly, aren't they, up until they drop dead? Health and healthiness are relative terms. Do you believe that taking medication to maintain good cholesteral and blood pressure numbers is not a healthy practice? I know I would benefit from more exercise and a better diet. But, in the mean time, I believe what my Doctor tells me when she reads my test results.

The only practical means of accessing whether a colony of bees is healthy or not is by way of observation. If you don't know what healthy bees and brood looks like, believing won't help you what so ever.

I find comparisons between bees and humans rather unsatisfying and inadequate. Let's stick to what is know about bees, please.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Mark, if you take prescription drugs to control your blood pressure and cholesterol do you appear healthy? Are you? What about having surgery to control your weight, do you look healthy? Are you?


I think this is personal and invasive. In another thread a beekeepers "crotch area" was brought into a conversation... 




> It really is difficult to tell health by appearance alone.


Yes, but reading some recent postings helps with the diagnosis ...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

"Otherwise, no one would be able to sell bees to anyone else unless they were medicated and treated under supervision of some sort of inspector. Totally rediculous, expensive and unnecassary."

That's not accurate.

If you're selling over $10,000 worth of bees, it's a small matter to show the buyer your receipts and treatment logs.

Ditto for an inspector when obtaining paperwork to transport across state lines.

It's certainly not ridiculous to ask for that kind of information as a buyer. You'd need to know that information to determine for what and when you may need to treat. Or, if you even want to do business with that outfit in the first place.

The NJ inspector leaned on the OP because he is probably sick and tired of getting calls saying, "My bees are lousy with mites, help."

My interpretation is that that the OP didn't have a satisfactory answer for the inspector on how they are mitigating pests and pathogens in their hives.

"VSH, essential oils, and splitting." would have been a more satisfactory answer.

Anything would have been better than simply saying, "I don't treat."


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It's pretty easy to pick up some peppermint candy drops at the local store, and put a few into your hive(s).

Then you can say, "I use essential oils."

I think that the bees are 'happier' when I give them peppermint. 

As for the usual suspects, they do go off on tangents.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> The NJ inspector leaned on the OP


Leaned on the OP? I certainly didn't see that in the OP.


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## Uriah Creek (Mar 8, 2010)

Waterbird17 said:


> It went good, the guy was very nice and informative, he taught me a few things and showed me a few things about my hive. everything is looking fine in the hive.
> 
> I am very happy with the way everything went.
> 
> ...


WB, Welcome to beekeeping, you got good sound advice for NJ bees. Varroa is a very real fact. Mites make bees weak and die young. Everything was going cool with the visit, then the _retching_ [sic] began when "organics" was introduced to your beekeeping. It sounds like if you had mites you might take actons to treat for them. I hope that you will take the time to learn how to detect the mite level that your bees have. 

Left untreated and given ample food for winter I would say there is a 90% chance of 1st year survival.
After that, into the second year, with the mite build up and far too many variables to detail in a paragraph, your chances of hive survival will diminish significantly. 

I have found Apigaurd, Apilife-Var and MAQS all will work if applied "correctly". There are also other physical interventions that can be done. All of the above can have minimal impact on the bees compared to a mite infestation. Or, do nothing. The choice will always be yours.

Impact to the beekeeper can be $ignificant. Loss of a nuc or package or an overwintered colony here in NJ can be $80-$125 or more for replacement. Not to mention the value of all the lost time, pollination and honey production. 

When with just the use of an old mason jar, some 1/8 screen and confection sugar and less than $12 worth of "treatment" or a few minutes of manipulation can make all the difference in hive survival against mites. Why not? I make choices based on mite population. Some of my bees get no treatment and many more do. I know the risk of not treating but really do try to put the odds in my (and the bees) favor with a wee bit of knowledge.

Good Luck


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> Slash and burn is a medical phrase for treating cancer


It's first and foremost an agricultural technique, the common understanding of the phrase.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> It's pretty easy to pick up some peppermint candy drops at the local store, and put a few into your hive(s).
> 
> Then you can say, "I use essential oils."
> 
> ...


Pot meet kettle.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> The only practical means of accessing whether a colony of bees is healthy or not is by way of observation. If you don't know what healthy bees and brood looks like, believing won't help you what so ever.


If you could open up a hive and determine the bees are healthy the death of a colony would never be a surprise. I don't know if I will ever get to that point where I could look in to a hive and claim they won't die. I wonder how many people can with any certainty.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I get the feeling that inspectors often catch attitude when they casually ask what a beekeepers plan is for mites. This is probably most often from new keepers that had equipment installed wrong, weren't comfortable pulling brood for inspector and had a million questions.

Most of the experienced people that claim long term success without chemicals don't strike me as the type to agitate an inspector. They seem to be more likely to be passionate about thier methods and excited to share. At the very least, interested to hear what the inspector is passing out as advise to others.

If an inspector shares his knowledge and suggest chemicals and you don't want to use them don't
If you want to discuss with him be prepared to give a good explanation of your plan, he is probably knowledgable and interested in the bees. A simple thanks for the advise is fine too.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

You can say that they look healthy.

But, at the same time, those bees could be harboring every single pest and pathogen known to beekeeping as 'inapparent' infections.

They're there and waiting for the right conditions.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Wow, really trying to split a hair, aren't you? There are pathogens all around every living thing waiting for the right conditions. What's your point? Everything is unhealthy?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Visual inspections are subjective.
And, if you are inspecting only 10% of hives being shipped across state lines, there's also the question of statistical significance.


'There are pathogens all around every living thing waiting for the right conditions.'

That's not what I wrote:

>You can say that they look healthy.
But, at the same time, those bees could be harboring every single pest and pathogen known to beekeeping as 'inapparent' infections.<

Do you understand the difference?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do you understand how things are done? Do you understand that the way things are done are also deemed adequate for the industry to run smoothly and in a healthy state? You seem to want to argue about how you think things should be, but you don't give us any idea of how you think these things should be done, by whom, and what the cost would be and paid by whom. That I surely don't understand.

How to find and recognize AFB in beehives I do undertand. Do you?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

OK, so add "inapparent" to my post. Point is, we accept that there are all kinds of unseen things going on that the naked eye can't detect, yet one can tell the basic health of a hive by visual observation. Perhaps you could explain who you were addressing your post #79 to? Maybe I missed something.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

'You seem to want to argue about how you think things should be, but you don't give us any idea of how you think these things should be done, by whom, and what the cost would be and paid by whom. That I surely don't understand.'

As I've said before, we might as well allow for self certification.

I also suggested that if you are going to purchase or inspect hives, look over the treatment logs/receipts.

That's not an expensive thing to do.

'Perhaps you could explain who you were addressing your post #79 to? Maybe I missed something. '


Acebird's comment.

The whole tread is about the contamination issue. Where do varroa come from? Other varroa and other hives. You can say something similar about the other pests and pathogens.

Spores are spores. Viruses are viruses. Arthropods are arthropods.

If they're in your hive, kindly don't tell me that they are healthy.

They are contaminated with a pest/pathogen.

Contaminated doesn't mean healthy. And, vica versa.

Yes, your hives can look healthy, but they can be quite contaminated.

Perhaps we have different definitions of healthy?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Perhaps we do. I get the feeling your "ideal"/"normal" hive (if there is such a thing) is free of all pests and pathogens. My understanding of a normal healthy hive will still have some of these at low levels that are "statistically insignificant."


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

You mean undetectable to the naked eye. They're present in significant numbers, but aren't causing an overt/apparent infection.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

There is no unacceptable level of varroa mites, as far as Interstate transport is concerned. Health certificates are issued to infested colonies all the time. There is no way to completely clear a colony of bees of its' varroa mites.

I thought you were going on about AFB detection and now you switch to varroa. Both are visually inspected for.

Nosema is detected/counted by eye too.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Yes, I mean undetectable to the naked eye. Yes, they're present. No, not in significant numbers because they "aren't causing an overt/apparent infection." I'm done with this one. Carry on Mark!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If I must.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

'No, not in significant numbers because they "aren't causing an overt/apparent infection." I'm done with this one.'

Those inapparent pests/pathogens are still capable of infecting other colonies where they can cause an outbreak.

I'm done with this one too!

Carry on Mark.


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## WPG (Mar 28, 2010)

WLC,

Over treating for pathegens produces resistent pathegens.

With your outlook anyone who has had sex or used a public toilet shoud be treated for STD's.

And we all should be given chemo and radiation for cancer because we all have some cancer cells floating around.

I could wish you would take remedial action for your ignorance because not only might it be hereditary it might be contagious.

Later


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

ROTFLOL!

You're advocating calling bees that are carrying a parasite, like varroa, 'healthy'.

If you've got a parasite, you're not healthy.

Why did the NJ bee inspector tell the OP that he'd have to treat for varroa?

Because they're likely to become contaminated.

'Over treating for pathegens produces resistent pathegens.'

Who said anything about over treating? I said that you should have treatment logs/receipts ready if you are transporting bees across state lines or selling them.

It isn't the same thing.

WPG:

If you're going to call someone ignorant, please spell RESISTANT and PATHOGENS correctly.

PS: I don't 'treat' either.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> ROTFLOL!
> 
> You're advocating calling bees that are carrying a parasite, like varroa, 'healthy'.
> 
> ...


Did I say that? Show me where I said they were healthy? Because I didn't. I told you how mites in a colony of bees does not make them unacceptable for interstate transport. Probably because we are all generally speaking infested so keeping infested hives from moving across State lines is impractical.

I didn't hear what the Apiary Inspector told the OPer. I wasn't there. Neither were you. So, your perspective is that the Inspector told the beekeeper to treat. My perspective is that the Inspector recommended treating. See the difference? Same reason, different approach. Yes, they are likely to become infested. Or as you put it contaminated.

Though I would advocate that contamination is not the right word when refering to a pest. Infestation is the better word.

Tell me, if your dog has fleas, is it sick? Or if it has some ticks on it, is it sick? Is it healthy, but infested w/ fleas?


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

....someone want to offer a definition of health....certainly we wouldn't consider "the boy in the bubble" healthy, even if he were free of all infection.
Deknow


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I have treatment free bees (peppermint essential oils).

I have seen evidence of DWV.

No, I haven't seen any mites.

Are they healthy?

They seem to be O.K., but I wouldn't call them healthy.

We need another word.

They aren't even asymptomatic anymore.

Do you understand why the inspector said what he did?

I'm not sure if I can say that any honeybees are 'healthy'.

I know too much.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

WLC, I believe that you are.the one.that introduced the concept of "healthy" to the discussion....yet I have no idea what you think healthy is. The boy in the bubble is an extreme example of "germ free"....certainly not healthy. ...and you seem to claim that the presence of pathogenic organisms makes one unhealthy. So, what is health? Can you offer a single example of a healthy organism? Is the staph bacteria on your skin a pathogen? Would you be healthier without it? 

Deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

WLC said:


> I have treatment free bees (peppermint essential oils).


Your treatment free bees are treated with pepperment essential oils........so they are treated bees, no?
Deknow


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

I'm with Mark on this one. If an inspector were to notice high mite levels, he would recommend that the beekeeper consider treatment for varroa or start looking at having a plan. It has been my experience that as an inspector you don't want to tell someone how to manage there hives, doing so could put you in a delicate situation. Making recommendations has to also be considered a sensative topic unless one is asked for


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Andrew Dewey said:


> And not approved for use as a miticide in the US. Beekeepers seem to share the general populations fascination with the chemical industry as we search for a product that will kill mites and leave bees alive


I definitely have a fascination with oxalic acid because it is a product that kills mites and leave the bees alone. I am non-commercial so not being approved is not an issue.

I dont know anything about cleaning the top bars with OA (I build a vaporiser), but I would be willing to bet that it works about a good as putting peppermint drops in you hive.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Nabber86 said:


> oxalic acid because it is a product that kills mites and leave the bees alone.


I don't understand how an acid that has this in the MSDS,

"May be fatal if inhaled, swallowed or absorbed thru the skin Avoid all contact. Use with adequate ventilation."

can leave/have no effect on the bees, yet it kills the mites.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Barry said:


> "May be fatal if inhaled, swallowed or absorbed thru the skin Avoid all contact. Use with adequate ventilation."
> 
> can leave/have no effect on the bees, yet it kills the mites.


MSDS is written for people, not bees.

The vaporizor that I build worked good aerlt this spring, did not hurt may bees. I did not say _no effect,_ but there are are plenty of studies that shows that OA to be very effective killing mites, with little little harm to the bees. 

Radetzki didn’t note increased bee mortality after winter treatment. Heinz Kaemmerer of Heilyser Technology Ltd. says: “We treated several colonies for 3 months during winter, once a week with the vaporizer and all colonies survived.” “With brood, colonies can be treated with the right amount of OA 3 to 4 times, a week apart; there is no harm to bees, queen or brood.” Medhat Nasr confirms that vaporized oxalic is very gentle to the bees.

Marinelli E., Formato G., Vari G., De Pace F.M. 2006 VARROA CONTROL USING CELLULOSE
STRIPS SOAKED IN OXALIC ACID WATER SOLUTION Apiacta Vol 2006

Radetzki, Thomas. Vaporization of oxalic acid and working safety.

Radetzki, Thomas. Vaporisation of oxalic acid in a field trial with 1’509 colonies.

Rademacher and Harz (2006) Effectiveness of Oxalic Acid for Controlling the Varroa Mite. ABJ
146(7): 614-617.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

papar said:


> If an inspector were to notice high mite levels, he would recommend that the beekeeper consider treatment for varroa or start looking at having a plan.


I could have misinterpreted the post but my take is the inspector recommended not just a treatment but a chemical treatment. That sounds like management to me.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

" I said I would only medicate if they need it. He told me that there was no doubt that they would need to be medicated for mites and I pretty much have no choice. "

WLC, To your question concerning "Do you know why the Inspector said what he said?", the above is what Waterbird said the Inspector said.

I don't know the Inspector and I don't know Waterbird, so I have no idea how accurate Waterbirds statement is or if the Inspector used those words or not. First of all, just to be picky, lol, one dosen't medicate w/ a treatment you treat. So, right off the bat soething isn't kosher.

Secondly, if Waterbirds bees have mites, it appears as though the Inspector is nof the opiniuon that the bees will have to be treated w/ a mitecide sometime. I don't know if "pretty much have no choice" means according to State Law or according to the Laws of Nature. I doubt that NJ has a mandatory treatment Law, but who knows.

I believe the Inspector was, in all likelihood, giving what he thought was the best advice he could.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I could have misinterpreted the post but my take is the inspector recommended not just a treatment but a chemical treatment. That sounds like management to me.



If you got that from reading the original post, then you really know how to read between the lines. Because in the OP there is nothing what so ever a statement which says anything about chemical treatment. If that came up in a latter Post, please quote it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry, how many Ramonas are there on beesourc?. I see the Ramona from MA and it seems like I saw a Ramona from somewhere out West. Same person different addresses?


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## Bonnie Botkins (Sep 13, 2011)

For what it's worth......The NJ State Inspector is good fair man, I'm sure he is giving the best advice available to him, IMHO he has not investigated treatment free, or given it a chance, for what reason I do not know. He is ALL ABOUT educating, he spent an hour with a group of people at the state fair, telling us all the nuances of judging honey, he is very enthusiastic, but I fear his eyes are not open to the possibilities of the benefit treatment free bee keepers could be. I wish it where otherwise.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I like the discussion generated, but it could've all bee avoided if the inspector had just said "You will need to 'manage' the hive at some point"....... I think that's the take home message everyone is getting at. You should have a management plan for your hive. The issues and variables are too complex for anyone (any one) person to be absolutely correct. Even true non-management is something I suppose. It depends on each beeks perspective of what a healthy hive entails. Some people think healthy means no chemicals, some think it means no mites, some think it means some mites, but in the end it's the bees who need to tell you if their healthy or not and you should do you best to listen to them. I think sometimes we get caught up on trying to decipher the "right way" and "the wrong way" or probably as we see it... the "right way" and the "way everyone else does it"...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Because in the OP there is nothing what so ever a statement which says anything about chemical treatment. If that came up in a latter Post, please quote it.


Is this reading between the lines?


> he asked my if I was planning on medicating.





> He told me that there was no doubt that they would need to be medicated for mites and I pretty much have no choice.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Does it seem appropriate for an inspector to suggest that a Newbee with one hive, has the option of going the "NonTreatment" route? Perhaps if he had considerable experience and quite a few hives to work with.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

hpm08161947 said:


> Does it seem appropriate for an inspector to suggest that a Newbee with one hive, has the option of going the "NonTreatment" route?


Absolutely.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Absolutely.



I wonder what the odds are of that guy having a successful beekeeping experience are? Not very good... I would think. Now if he had a few years experience or perhaps a strong (NonTreatment) mentor, I am sure the odds would improve.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

He has zero chance of success if he puts chemicals in the hive unless he is willing to dump all his equipment to START over trying medication free beekeeping. How many years of medicating bees should he do until you think he knows enough to try something you don't believe in? I would just like to know how many years you think he should waste before he does something he believes in?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Nabber86 said:


> The vaporizor that I build worked good aerlt this spring, did not hurt may bees.


http://beenatural.wordpress.com/2011/11/24/oxalic-acids-sublethal-effects/

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/

"Ellis and Aliano found that OA is about 70 times as toxic to mites as it is to adult bees—which is a much greater spread than with either thymol or formic acid. The bees normally do not react defensively to being dribbled with syrup, but on rare occasions run out the entrance for a while. Occasionally one will notice a little adult bee kill after oxalic treatment. Adult bee kill does not seem to be an issue. However, there are questions about subtle effects, larval kill, and lasting suppression of brood development."


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

5 hives and a good mentor... then jump in. Better chance of success. Who says I don't believe in it? If I had 5-10 hives I would be trying it.... I just can't see how it would work for a Commercial entity.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Barry said:


> The bees normally do not react defensively to being dribbled with syrup, but on rare occasions run out the entrance for a while. Occasionally one will notice a little adult bee kill after oxalic treatment. Adult bee kill does not seem to be an issue. However, there are questions about subtle effects, larval kill, and lasting suppression of brood development."


Sounds fairly benign to me. Anyway in my limited research and 1 data point, I think OA is a good approach. They sure seem to like it in Europe. 

I am tired of loosing colonies every winter. I will let you know how it works out next spring.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I believe that success with bees depends more on bee resources than beelieving... I recall someone explaining this, maybe yesterday...

Going chemical free, with one hive and no supporting nucs or outside resources will require more frequent package purchases ... It will be a treatment free bee purchasing treadmill. IMO


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> It will be a treatment free bee purchasing treadmill. IMO


So far we have purchased two nucs. It is getting pretty close to three years and neither hive loss was due to mites. Learning curve, yes, mites no. We all have our own perception but I don't consider that a bee purchasing treadmill.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

'Going chemical free, with one hive and no supporting nucs or outside resources will require more frequent package purchases...'

I think that you'll ultimately have to split into nucs anyway for mite mitigation.

I also think that you would almost certainly have to depend on queen breeders not only to start with appropriate queens (VSH in my case), but for requeening as well when things start getting out of hand.

I've included peppermint as a food grade 'treatment'. So, I'm not completely chemical free according to some. And, it is a treatment (Yes, I do treat myself to a peppermint drop as well).

So, I'm on a management and candy treadmill.

Would it have been easier and cheaper to use standard treatments? I don't know.

However, I do agree that you do have to have some kind of a plan to deal with pests and pathogens.

What may turn out to have the best bottom line for 'treatment free bees' is the purchase of new stock yearly.

Shake em into a box at the end of the season, then 'zip up' up the hive(s) until the new stock arrives in the spring.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> So, I think it is safe to say that feral hives get occupied by swarms. Those colonies may survive for a number of years, casting off swarms most likely, and then they die. Getting reoccupied the next year or some year after that.


Perhaps some feral hives have a better chance of long term survival because they do swarm - brood breaks, phoretic mites leaving with the swarm, fresh queens, etc. Seems like I read that on Randy Oliver's web site.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Is this reading between the lines?


I should learn to ignore what you write. Because you stated the use of heavy chemicals and nothing the Inspector supposedly said indicated what kind of ntreatment the Poster should use. Maybe the Inspector believes in powdered sugar treatment. We don't know. But you assumed. Which isn't a good idea.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

David, that's how some believe AHB handle the mite problem.... frequent swarming, which is what is being mimic'd in some systems.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC,

How would you describe the state of health of apis dorsata, the original host of varroa jacobsonii. Would you say that an apis dorsata colony which tolerates the presence of varroa jacobsonii is not healthy since it is infested? Or, since varroa jacobsonii seems to have no detrimental effect on apis dorsata, the apis dorsata colony is healthy?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

'How would you describe the state of health of apis dorsata, the original host of varroa jacobsonii. '

If you've got a parasite, you're not 'healthy'.

There's always a metabolic penalty for harboring parasites, even if they don't kill the host.

Besides, Apis mellifera's parasite, Varroa destructor, has a bunch of viral 'parasites' of its own.

Those viruses are what many believe, myself included, cause the real damage to the colony.

Let's not forget the link between varroa, viruses, nosema, and CCD.

I personally believe that a molecular parasite (a parasite, of a parasite, of a parasite!) is at large.

What's the real culprit? Globalization.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What about a host saprophyte situation? If that's how it's spelled. Is the host healthy? Since the sparophyte doesn't cause harm?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

WLC said:


> If you've got a parasite, you're not 'healthy'.
> 
> .


If the jacobsonii does not affect the dorsata... then it is not a parasite... right? If it were a plant - I'd call it an epiphyte.... not sure what the animal kingdom word would be... just along for the ride.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

You mean symbiosis.

A true symbiont is actually a metabolic multiplier. It decreases the metabolic cost to the host of 'whatever'.

In terms of beekeeping, you want fewer parasites, and more symbionts.

Apis cerana has a symbiont that reduces the presence of Varroa destructor. It's a strain of Serratia marcescens.

Let me look for the reference again.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20153333


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Ahh... a bacteria. Its a symbiont of dorsata and acts negatively upon jacobsonii? Wonder if there are bacteria that act similarly towards destructor and are symbiotic to millifera?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

hpm:

Do you remember that bioceramic hive project? Unfortunately, we've had repeated problems with the releasing agent (but, I'll get back to it soon enough).

The idea of using a phosphate based cement for the hive body was to provide for a growth medium for symbionts.

Of course, the symbionts would ideally attack pests and parasites while being beneficial to the bees (but, we don't know what will happen).

Alot of treatment free beekeeping is about preserving the symbiotic microflora of the hive.

At least, that's how I view it. I'm not too crazy about the peppermint candy I'm using for that reason (but, I needed another layer of protection that would be the least onerous.). It's a compromise.


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## Waterbird17 (Apr 30, 2012)

I've been severely overwhelmed.... Thanks for all the advice... its gonna take me 2 months to read it all. 

Thanks again.

- Al


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Maybe the Inspector believes in powdered sugar treatment. We don't know. But you assumed. Which isn't a good idea.


How do you figure I assumed? If the OP is telling the truth he said "medicate" that is clearly chemical treatment and not sugar. Sugar dusting is a mechanical shake down of the mite not medicating for mites. If there is any assuming on my part it would be that a state inspector would have a commercial background and his advice for mites would be to medicate. I don't think I am wrong on that. I think there are quite of few people mentioned on this forum that have or are state inspectors. Would any of them advise not medicating for mites if the beekeeper clearly stated that they want to be treatment free? Would they even mention any other alternatives in the interest of educating the new beek?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Ace.. have you ever been visited by a bee inspector?

Here in NC... I am told what problems are seen, only if I ask what my options are will I be told their opinion. If I ask for a recommendation... I will get one... but I have to ask. I wonder if the OP asked?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Never.

Are you a newbie? Do you think what he tells you will be the same conversation as what he will have with a newbie?

Now seriously, do you need him to tell you what he sees in your hives?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

We have inspectors because we are in the blue berries and some owners (blue berry farmers) request that the hives be inspected and a report made back to them on their quality.

Pathologically they know more than I and I find what they say to be interesting. But I don't always agree with some of there methods.... mainly I wish they would do mite counts to confirm some of their opinions. 

Mark has also inspected my hives.... he is much quicker and draws mostly the same opinions in much less time plus he does mite counts.

I can learn from both the bee inspectors (I had 5 of them) as well as Mark.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Acebird wrote:

f there is any assuming on my part it would be that a state inspector would have a commercial background and his advice for mites would be to medicate. I don't think I am wrong on that.

You may be correct, you may be wrong., The point is that the inspector does not have the time to walk an inexperienced beekeeper thru the treatment free regiment. As expressed by others, it is a good way to keep your package provider well fed. It is much easier for the inexperienced to take the safest route (medication) for a short period untill they have the skills to go treatment free. Ask Mr. Bush, he did arrive at his condition in a year or two. 

What does not help is when some claim to be "treatment free", and then fail to reveal that they either use a miticide, that to them, is not a treatment, or fail to reveal that they are buying a disproportional number of replacement bees every spring, because "I purchased bees where not treatment free" or other reason. 

I believe the inspector did the right thing. The inspected(beekeeper) has a choice, deal with the mites and other pathogens in a manner of his choosing, or most likely buy more bees next spring. 

Crazy Roland


Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> It is much easier for the inexperienced to take the safest route (medication) for a short period untill they have the skills to go treatment free. Ask Mr. Bush, he did arrive at his condition in a year or two.


Why does everything have to be easy? I feel you get a much more sense of accomplishment if a task is difficult. This road you and others are suggesting is like learning how to put up siding before you paint your house. Although I do know some people that have tore off siding and either painted or gone natural I have never heard of it happening if they themselves put up the siding.
To encourage someone to medicate means the newbie will learn nothing towards his goal. Most hobbyist are not looking at the bottom line. Their goals are completely different than someone that is. Colonies die treated or not.
It is pretty dang obvious that queen breeders are supporting commercial beekeepers not hobbyist. Their businesses would dry up in a heartbeat if it were not for commercial beekeepers. If there is anybody on a treadmill it is the commercial people who are medicating their hives. I hate to see a newbie that wants to try chemical free get sucked into that treadmill that you can't get off once on it. The idea of taking the easy way first will decrease their chance of success. You can't succeed at anything if you are not motivated.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

This road you and others are suggesting is like learning how to put up siding before you paint your house.

It is easier to paint it when it is on the house.

To encourage someone to medicate means the newbie will learn nothing towards his goal.

If there goal is to kill their bees, then that is true.

It is pretty dang obvious that queen breeders are supporting commercial beekeepers not hobbyist. 

And here I thought it was the commercial beekeeper that supported the queen breeders.

I hate to see a newbie that wants to try chemical free get sucked into that treadmill that you can't get off once on it. 

With annual comb replacement, I do not see the treadmill. Where is it? 

I feel you get a much more sense of accomplishment if a task is difficult. 

See, getting off the treadmill would make it more rewarding, especially since treating for mites(chemically or not), they have a better chance of their hive surviving, unless you believe that mites do not kill bees.

Crazy Roland


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Hey Waterbird! How's it going? Ya simply gotta love it. :gh: 
I'm treatment free, have been since restarting in 2006. I have hives 6 years old, with no treatments, and no mite counts. Which annoys some folks no end. I also buy from treatment free sources, and if I find out they treat their bees, I don't buy them. I want the breeder to pay the cost of me going treatment free, not me.

Now, to your specific situation and question. Most beekeepers who go treatment free have hives that crash, because they do not obtain bonafide treatment free bees. Check out B. Weaver's and R Russell's web sites. What your inspector knows is that if your bees were ever treated, or came from a source that treated, and you do not treat, they will crash...it is simply a matter of time. Of course there are exceptions to that rule, but exceptions get expensive. 

A reply you can make to an inspector who suggests treatments is to say, hopefully honestly, "I have treatment free bees." At this point, if your bees do not come from a treatment free source, and you want to truly be treatment free, I'd suggest three things:
First, read the Treatment Free threads on this forum.
Second, read the web sites of breeders who advertise treatment free.
Third, plan to requeen next year (or sooner, as the mood hits you) with a bonafide treatment free queen.

Several of us have great success doing this, and you can too. Best wishes to you!
Regards,
Steven


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> unless you believe that mites do not kill bees.
> 
> Crazy Roland


I believe that mites are the vehicle that weakens the bee and allows viruses and bacteria to enter the wounds they make. I think that bees can build resistance to the viruses and bacteria that enter the wounds over time and may even develop other defenses against the mite itself. Chemically treating the hive makes the bees dependent on the treatment AND ALSO weakens the the colony because the chemicals are NOT mite specific. There will always be side effects to any chemical treatment including the drugs that humans take.

The bees that I purchased were treated before I got them but I have never treated them since I had them. I know accidents do happen but twice now I have had a hive make it through the winter and come out like gang busters the second year. So without doing anything my bees have lived two years. How come? Aren't they suppose to die? It is not guaranteed that they will die if you don't treat. If they don't die multiply them. If they do die say good by. What is the big deal?


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

*Stop guessing and know for sure if chemicals are in your hive*




> Dr. Maryann Frazier at Penn State received funding from Project Apis mellifera (PAm) to run pesticide samples for interested beekeepers at a 50% discount of $80 for each samples for miticides or $142 per sample for the full screen of 171 pesticides, compared to $160 for miticides or $284 for the full 171 pesticide analysis without the cost-share. Beekeepers can send samples of wax, pollen, adult bees, brood, or nectar for analysis. In two to three weeks after the samples are sent in, the beekeeper will be provided with a report of the pesticides in samples, along with information about how those levels compare to the rest of the country. All the data generated will be stored in a large and confidential database at Penn State.
> 
> If you are interested in participating, contact Maryann .


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the testing info I posted just above, Maryann Frazier sent to me a WORD document on how to submit your samples for testing.

I don't see a method for attaching documents to these forums, so if anyone wants to have a copy emailed to them, send me a message and I will forward right over to you. Please include your email, of course.


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## NirvanaFan (Apr 17, 2012)

Acebird said:


> The bees that I purchased were treated before I got them but I have never treated them since I had them. I know accidents do happen but twice now I have had a hive make it through the winter and come out like gang busters the second year. So without doing anything my bees have lived two years. How come? Aren't they suppose to die? It is not guaranteed that they will die if you don't treat. If they don't die multiply them. If they do die say good by. What is the big deal?


I wouldn't consider two years to be a success. Nobody is saying bees won't survive for a couple years without treatments.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.



NirvanaFan said:


> I wouldn't consider two years to be a success. Nobody is saying bees won't survive for a couple years without treatments.


Kurt Cobain wouldn't believe in treating, if he were still around.

.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

If you want to try and keep chemical/treatment free bees, you're going to need a plan.

Any plan is better than none at all.

You can't even use the 'Live and Let Die' or 'Bond' method with only a hive or two because the odds are against you.


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## NirvanaFan (Apr 17, 2012)

PatBeek said:


> .
> 
> Kurt Cobain wouldn't believe in treating, if he were still around.
> 
> .


Not that Nirvana, but they're alright I guess.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

NirvanaFan said:


> Not that Nirvana, but they're alright I guess.


Thanks for clearing that up. Since it's not THAT Nirvana, it would be off-topic to discuss.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

NirvanaFan said:


> Nobody is saying bees won't survive for a couple years without treatments.


They certainly are. How long will a hive last if you treat it will chemicals and don't requeen? What is the cost of these chemicals? What personal risk do you take using these chemicals? Are you trained in how to apply them? After all we are speaking about newbies.

WLC I do have a plan. Multiply the hives that live. If they all don't make it buy another nuc. I am a hobbyist. The cost of a nuc is less than the average cost of smoking for a week. I don't smoke so I can afford 52 nucs a year and I only want one maybe every two years if all goes wrong. If it goes right, I don't need to spend anything. I never had a hobby that was so cheap to enjoy.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

The general rule of thumb I've read is that if a hive makes it three years without treatments, the odds are the bees are survivors. As stated, most hives will go two years before succumbing to the mites, sans treatments. Some as reported, won't even make it that long.

That is why those reported being treatment free speak of hives 4 and more years along in the process, treatment free.
Regards,
Steven


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

Ditto the BushMan. I've been keeping bees for 12 years. I medicated the first year, then thought it was ridiculous the money and the risk. Have always run screen bottom boards. That hive went great and created new ones for several years until I made a couple mistakes. Started over with feral bees from a cutout. Haven't lost a single one, any winter for the last several years. Never use any treatment. I don't get a ton of honey (only 25 gallons off of 5 hives last year) but I get enough.  I get rid of mean hives (had my first one this year) and weak hives (kill the queen and combine) I rotate my oldest wax out, and will feed sugar water to give them a boost, but I limit even that to only when I feel its close to emergency situations. I run double deep broods on screened bottom boards with 1/6 screen and oil trays.

Rob
www.mongrelbees.com


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

What's wrong with 5 gallons per hive? I am sure some people would love 5 gallons per hive.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Let's see... that would be about 60 lbs per hive average. I believe that is above the state average in VA.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

We don't really know what the Inspector said, only what the OPer has reported, which may or may not be accurate. Did the Inspector say medicate or treat, for instance.

A decent well informed Apiary Inspector should, if asked, be able to give a range of techniques and materials or management plans or alternatives to addressing Varroa mites, as well as other maladies of bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> How long will a hive last if you treat it will chemicals and don't requeen?


Over the last 5 years 66% of all colonies, both treated and not treated, have survived into the next year. Hives last indefinitely, until they rot I guess.

This Spring I had an 88% survival rate. So, some of those colonies have lived for two years, some three. If one has noticed my Green Dot Queen Thread. So she has kept a colony going longer than Acebird has had bees. Not treatment free either. Proper treatment or good genetics? Hmm.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

If I remember correctly, the OP called the inspector in to take a look.

One thing you don't want to do is call in an inspector, and then ignore their advice.

If you don't treat and your bees croak, don't bother the guy by calling him in.

Just buy new bees.


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

Acebird said:


> What's wrong with 5 gallons per hive? I am sure some people would love 5 gallons per hive.


I was being funny. There are some beeks that believe if you don't treat, the mites weaken the hives and they can't produce enough. I just don't get some beeks, and they're on this forum. Every year they buy medication, and prophalactically treat their hives. I wonder how many normal beeks with over 10 hives ever keep a control group just to see if the medication really helps or hurts. Here's one for you: The bees allow the yeasts to ferment naturally. Well, when we load the bees up with antifungals and antibacterials, the bee bread can't be broken by natural enzymes. As a result, it's not as bio-available for the brood. Just try feeding a human baby steak and potatoes and regular cow's milk. He may not starve, but he also may not perform to his potential. All the building blocks are there, but not in a way that can be used.

Sorry if all this has been hashed over again in the forums, I just don't have the time to read them, but I'm making the time lately just to see what's out there. 

I have 10 and starting some 8 frame Langstroths, and a couple top bar hives. Thinking about making some Warre hives, and I believe I have the best looking observation hive out there. I have been keeping bees for 12 years, so... in about another 400 years I might know everything I need to know. 

My bees all come from cutouts and trapouts. Some are great, some not so much. However, I think if you survey the guys that keep bees naturally, and those that medicate, us natural guys are happier. Plus, I don't have to spend all that money on chemicals. And one more thing. The same guys that make your mitecides are the ones that make the neonicotinoids that are probably the biggest killers of bees out there. You really want to vote with your dollar that way?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So, are you going to keep a treated control group to see if not treating really helps?

I tried not treating. Lost 600 out of 700. Whatever that percentage is. This Spring I had 88% survive. I think I will keep doing what I see working.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Don't forget the 'money pits and time bandits'.

There are hidden costs associated with treatment free beekeeping.

That would be in equipment, productivity, and management.

So, while you may save on treatments, it'll cost you elsewhere.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I tried not treating. Lost 600 out of 700.


What did you do with the hundred that survived? Are they part of the reason that you have 88% survival now? If you were medicating all along and then stop for a "trial" you are going to lose those that are dependent on the medication. That is what you are proving in your trial.

The comparison you are looking for is a group of bees that never have been medicated compared to bees that always have been medicated. What do those two numbers say? This data has been stated on this forum more than once because there are beekeepers that have not medicated for long periods of time. So either you believe the people that are reporting what they have done or you think they are all lying for some unknown reason.

To me what they are saying makes sense. It follows everything I know about medications.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

RobWok said:


> My bees all come from cutouts and trapouts. Some are great, some not so much. However, I think if you survey the guys that keep bees naturally, and those that medicate, us natural guys are happier. Plus, I don't have to spend all that money on chemicals. And one more thing. The same guys that make your mitecides are the ones that make the neonicotinoids that are probably the biggest killers of bees out there. You really want to vote with your dollar that way?


http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/thymol.html
I get a lot of joy out of using this product, it has made me a very happy person  . I am spending the equivalent of a half pound of honey per year on a fall treatment and my bees are thriving like a baby on mothers milk. They are neither Monsanto or Bayer, It is a small company that probably dosent gross whats in the petty cash drawer of those bigger corporations, but really the only important things are is it safe and does it work. I don't begrudge any entity a profit if their products have made me a profit.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well there is a vote of confidence. It is made in Canada but can't be used in Canada?:scratch:


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Well there is a vote of confidence. It is made in Canada but can't be used in Canada?:scratch:


Yeah, I noticed that too, there has to be a story there somewhere. Perhaps one of our Canadian friends.........


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> I get a lot of joy out of using this product, it has made me a very happy person  . I am spending the equivalent of a half pound of honey per year on a fall treatment and my bees are thriving like a baby on mothers milk.


Is it a Fall treatment, because the brood is shutting down.... or is it just that it is a convenient time of year?

Is this the only Mite specific treatment that you use during the year?

I need a new Spring treatment.... lookin hard...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Herb: I have only used it in the late summer, early fall time period (followed by an October oxalic dribble) primarily because our counts have been so low in the spring and I fear the odor might affect a small nuc trying to get a queen mated. That makes late May and early June our only pre-honey flow window and I just havent seen the mite numbers to justify using it nor do I feel comfortable installing them at the same time we are putting on honey supers for fear of odor residue.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Jim: Here we have a late Spring and Fall honey harvest. Both small in comparison to SD. So I may well give this CO. a call and see what it does in an application following the upcoming honey harvest.


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> So, are you going to keep a treated control group to see if not treating really helps?
> 
> I tried not treating. Lost 600 out of 700. Whatever that percentage is. This Spring I had 88% survive. I think I will keep doing what I see working.


okay, you got me there.  The best rule is go with what works. If you're stuck in a cycle of buying packages, you're stuck. Most people can't afford the years it takes to build up mongrel colonies. I understand. Not judging, I just wish it didn't have to be this way because it's a tough business to eek out a living, and having losses and spending money on medicines make that profit margin even tighter.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Acebird said:


> To me what they are saying makes sense. It follows everything I know about medications.


Which is what? One thing that can be quickly picked up reading this forum is that nearly everybody is an expert on medication. Or at least, has an firm opinion which is based on "science", or what they think is science.

The most open minded it seems to me, are the commercial beekeepers, who are always trying new things, including not treating, and doing realistic assessements of the results.

Thing is, when varroa first arrived and started wiping out bees wholesale, it was unmedicated bees they were wiping out wholesale.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

What ever, my sister in law just died of cancer. My poor brother had just two days to say his good bye from diagnosis to her passing away. Take your pills, treat your bees, have a party, life isn't fair. "Only the good die young". 60 is pretty young...


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

jim lyon said:


> Yeah, I noticed that too, there has to be a story there somewhere. Perhaps one of our Canadian friends.........


Trying to find the post in which this refers to...can not...so what is made in Canada?...in reference to the thread please


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Honeyshack... http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/thymol.html


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

We already have a product that is thymol based in Canada which was approved for use either last fall or this spring. It is called thymovar. It is very possible that this company has either not applied in Canada or has not completed the process. PRMA our pest management regulatory might also feel that since we have thymovar, hopguard (pending final approval) formic, MAQS, OA, Check mite inch: Apistan inch: and Apivar, that we have enough to use at this present time. 
It is possible that the heiyser was not as on the ball as the company who owns Thymovar in their application process or that they did not meet the standards for PRMA.

We have some products available to us which you do not and visa versa. Such is the way of thing


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

We use Thymovar over here, but straight up, it's pretty unreliable. Jim, do you know if the thymol product you are using is better than Thymovar?

From what I read it seems you guys laws are the opposite of ours. You guys are not allowed to use a product on bees till it's approved for use, is that correct? Over here we can use what ever we like, unless it's specifically prohibited.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

yup that is the way it is here. If we are caught using an unapproved method, a hefty fine

From what i hear, Thymovar (have not used it yet) is pretty temp dependant. As well, those heavy infested hives will need more treatments because, like formic's Mite Away products, leaves more mites in the hives due to the nature of the treatments.
Chem treatments have about a 98% effacy. Apivar, check mite, etc. The naturals seem to have an 80% effacy...reason more treatments are necessary. So if the load is high, it will be high again in short order. Where as the chem treatments knock back hard, leaving a longer time until the mites reach critical.
It is the reason here in Manitoba the provincial bee guys recommend hard treatments in the spring or due dillegence with soft (formic flash is 5 treatments a 4-7 days apart) and then a soft treatment in the fall. Knock back hard in the spring, clean up for the fall


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

No, I don't know anything about Thymovar, I'm not aware that its available in the US. The Thymol products available here that I know of are the gel based Apiguard sold by Dadant and ApiLife Var which is an Italian made wafer. The odd thing is that Thymomite isnt sold in the US but I havent had any trouble getting it shipped in. It is a thin strip made of a felt type of material which seems quite effective used on the top bars without a rim but best results are between the boxes of a double. Apiguard is also quite effective used in a double but requires a rim if used on the top bars of a single as the bees usually seal it up to the lid. The ApiLife wafer is a fairly good product but pretty expensive. All these thymol products really need to be applied when the temps are still pretty warm but not recommended in extremely high temps, the good thing about them, though, is that the thymol seems quite effective for a fairly long period of time (unlike formic products) so a cool spell only seems to delay treatment until the temps warm up again. Inspectors that I have dealt with here in the US generally don't take it upon themselves to try to police what is used in hives, they might suggest and make recommendations but few beekeepers have actually had charges brought against them for using unapproved products. I am not going to get into the whole matter about whether that is good, bad or otherwise.


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## Ozarks Honey Company (Apr 18, 2012)

> I said I would only medicate if they need it. He told me that there was no doubt that they would need to be medicated for mites and I pretty much have no choice.
> 
> Is this true ???


I would say it is only true if that is how you want to go... I know many beekeepers that treat and many like myself that don't. I wont get into the whole right/wrong discussions about why you should/shouldn't treat... But what I can tell you is that yes you do have a choice and unless it is required by law in your state you can successfully keep bees without treatment. Key word here being "keep." A very wise 30+ year beek once said to me we must be beekeepers not bee-have-rs. I believe she is right, so what does that mean??? Can you simply put them out in the yard and expect them to thrive and take care of themselves? NO! We must "keep" the bees and tend to them with a thoughtful process and take care of them to help them to survive (medication or not). 

Don't take what your inspector said as the only rule (unless it is law). There are many beekeepers that use essential oils and natural methods like sugar dusting, hive splitting and drone frames to keep mites in check. All with great success. My suggestion is if you are new to beekeeping, find a mentor that has ideas about beekeeping that align with yours and has been beekeeping for a good number of years with those methods and you will likely be successful.

Best of luck,


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Oldtimer nailed it when he spoke of mites:

it was unmedicated bees they were wiping out wholesale.

Now it is the your choice of methods, chemical or non-chemical, but is sure seems like you never get more out of your bees than you put effort in.

Crazy Roland


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## bbrowncods (Oct 10, 2012)

I know this is an old thread, and don't want to pick at any scabs.
In VA the state does not require inspections if you are a hobbyist (I think less than 120 gal/year sales of honey). However, you have to put on your bottles that this is a product of an uninspected hive. Fair enough. A couple of questions.
1. What does an inspecter look for generally. Can you fail an inspection?
2. What are the general requirements for a "certificate of health". I know each state is probably different.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, each State is different. Whenh NY had a full compliment of 18 or 20 Apiary Inspectors the main focus of Inspection was the finding of American Foulbrood Disease and other brood diseases and determining the presence and level of Tracheal mite and/or Varroa mite infestation.

If AFB was found a Quarantine and Abatement Order was issued requiring the owner, under State Law, to kill the bees of that colony and to burn or deeply bury the equipment. Scorching of supers and other hive parts was acceptable. Completely burning up the boxes is not necassary. Once the disease was destroyed, under supervision of an Inspector, a Quarantine and Abatement release form was issued. The Quarantine and Abatement Order carrys a fine for noncompliance, otherwise no penalty is attatched to the Order. Historically no fines have ever been claimed by the State.

No health certificate was issued. Simply a report of findings, unless disease was found, as described above. If one wishes to transport colonies from one State to another a Certificate of Health is issued after Inspection.

The Eastern States of the United States have an agreement on what they accept as far as an Inspection for InterState Transportation. Generally this is an Inspection of at least 10% of the colonies to be transported.

Failing doesn't come into it exactly, the point is to maintain a healthy population of beehives w/in a State. I guess one could look at presence or absence of disease as a pass or fail.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

bbrowncods said:


> I know this is an old thread, and don't want to pick at any scabs.
> In VA the state does not require inspections if you are a hobbyist (I think less than 120 gal/year sales of honey). However, you have to put on your bottles that this is a product of an uninspected hive. Fair enough. A couple of questions.
> 1. What does an inspecter look for generally. Can you fail an inspection?
> 2. What are the general requirements for a "certificate of health". I know each state is probably different.


You'll have to excuse me if this response is not consistent with the thread, since I haven't read all 9 pages.

There are two types of inspections in VA that a beekeeper/honey producer must be concerned with. If you sell bees (nucs, queens, packages, etc.) your bees must be inspected to get a cert of health. This basically consists of contacting the state officials and requesting an inspection. The inspector will go through the majority of your hives and is looking primarily for brood disease, but notes several other things as well. They will give you a report and are supposed to give you stickers to attach to your bee packages. The actual law reads:

*Certificate of health to accompany bill of sale.*
No bees on combs, hives, used beekeeping equipment with combs, or appliances may be offered for sale without a certificate of health prepared by the State Apiarist for each specifically identifiable item. The certificate of health must accompany each bill of sale.

*Rearing package bees and queens for sale.*
A. No person shall rear package bees or queens for sale without first applying to the State Apiarist for inspection at least once during each summer season.
B. Upon the discovery of any bee diseases, the rearer or seller shall at once cease to ship bees from affected apiaries until the State Apiarist issues a certificate of health for such apiaries.
C. No person engaged in rearing queen bees for sale shall use honey in the making of bee food for use in mailing cages.


Regarding the sale of honey, here's the VA law:

3.2-5130. Inspections required to operate food establishment.

A. It is unlawful to operate a food manufacturing plant, food storage warehouse, or retail food store until it has been inspected by the Commissioner. This section shall not apply to:

1. Food manufacturing plants operating under a grant of inspection from the Office of Meat and Poultry Services or a permit from the Office of Dairy and Foods in the Department; and Grade A fluid milk manufacturing plants and shellfish and crustacea processing plants operating under a permit from the Virginia Department of Health;

2. Nonprofit organizations holding one-day food sales;

3. Private homes where the resident processes and prepares candies, jams, and jellies not considered to be low-acid or acidified low-acid food products and baked goods that do not require time or temperature control after preparation if such products are: (i) sold to an individual for his own consumption and not for resale; (ii) sold at the private home or at farmers markets; and (iii) labeled "NOT FOR RESALE - PROCESSED AND PREPARED WITHOUT STATE INSPECTION." Nothing in this subdivision shall create or diminish the authority of the Commissioner under § 3.2-5102;

4. Private homes where the resident processes and prepares honey produced by his own hives, if: (i) the resident sells less than 250 gallons of honey annually; (ii) the resident does not process and sell other food products in addition to honey, except as allowed by subdivision A 3; (iii) the product complies with the other provisions of this chapter; (iv) the product is labeled "PROCESSED AND PREPARED WITHOUT STATE INSPECTION. WARNING: Do Not Feed Honey to Infants Under One Year Old."; and (v) the resident certifies in writing annually to the Department that he meets the requirements of this subdivision. Nothing in this subdivision shall increase or diminish the authority of the Commissioner under § 3.2-5102; and

5. Retail establishments that: (i) do not prepare or serve food; (ii) sell only food or beverages that are sealed in packaging by the manufacturer and have been officially inspected in the manufacturing process; (iii) do not sell infant formulas; (iv) do not sell salvaged foods; and (v) certify to the Department that they meet the provisions of this section. Retail establishments that meet the provisions of this subdivision shall be exempt from inspection and the inspection fees. Nothing in this section shall prevent the Department from inspecting any retail establishment if a consumer complaint is received. 


Item 4 gives an exemption to inspection for "small" producers, but the jars MUST have an extra label. And yes, you can fail either type of inspection. They are particularly concerned with proper labeling.


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## bbrowncods (Oct 10, 2012)

Thanks AstroBee. I guess you would have to get the food processing inspection instead of the State Apiarist inspection in order to not be required to have the "...PREPARED WITHOUT STATE INSPECTION..." label on your product.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Yes, I jump through those hoops just to avoid that extra label. Its a bit of a pain, but not too bad.


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## otto (Nov 2, 2010)

wow, all those replies and nobody answered your question .

"What is the best brand of mite treatment. Maybe one with the least impact??? Organic??? "
may be DDT?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Really, I think there were a lot of answers to his questions.


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