# Sticky  Apivar (amitraz) vs Apiguard (thymol)



## SeaCucumber

Here's my idea for a regular schedule for treating (until I get mite resistant queens and they show low counts):

1. at winter solstice: OAV oxalic acid
2. some time in the summer: Have a brood break with splits. Do OAV, Apivar or Apiguard, then OAV.

It might make sense to switch between Apivar and Apiguard every year. Right now, I want to know which is better.


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## SeaCucumber

I'm going to buy one tomorrow. Help. Someone must decide for me now.

celebrities:

Apiguard: Bob Binnie, Kaymon, Randy Oliver
Apivar: Ian Steppler, Kaymon

Why I might not like Apivar:

shelf life: Betterbee says Apivar has 2 years. vita-europe says Apiguard lasts "3 years" "at least four years and probably up to six years".
residue: A Cornell page said the time to break down is 3 months for Apivar and 3 weeks for Apiguard. I'm going to go treatment free sometime. It should break down in <10 months, so that when a TF queen is installed it doesn't get treated.


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## RayMarler

Please note: I used Apiguard 15 years ago, maybe more, back when it first came out and got approved in California. I tried it one year and never again since. It may be that it's not the same thing now a days as it was way back then.

I've used both. I did not like the results of ApiGuard. It's strong and I did not like it's effects on the queen or the hive as a whole. No deaths, but it interrupts her laying, and the hive spends it's time trying to get rid of it or encase it. I didn't like the upset it caused in the hives and it didn't give me good results.
Apivar is great, the bees don't even act as if anything is there, including the queen, and it keeps the mites down for me. I've used it in the past and I'm using it now this is the 3rd year.


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## wildbranch2007

they both work just fine.


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## ursa_minor

Where I live there is some discussion on the build up of resistance to Apivar and the link to all the hive deaths this winter. 

That said, as a new beekeeper learning how to do effective mite control, it has be drummed into my head by multiple sources to rotate the type of mite control to prevent this. And yet, beekeepers I know do Apivar for spring mite control and repeat Apivar for the fall with no other treatments simply because it is easy. 

I used nothing all last summer, Apivar when the supers came off August 10, and OA dribble the beginning of Oct. to clean up as many of the mites that could have lived thru the Apivar. I did have a brood break in the summer but did not have OA on hand and the Apivar needed to be in for 8 weeks, time which would have put me right in the middle of the honey flow so I would not have been able to super.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

Recent studies by the university of GA, Auburn, and Maryland with Bob Binnie showed Apivar to be seriously ineffective.

Apiguard works very good for myself and Bob Binnie. We both used Apivar every year but no longer as it is not knocking back mites. So Apiguard is now our main treatment with OA. 

Apiguard works well on healthy colonies. I would never use it during a period where a queen is not laying, or being introduced.

We need more and better options in this industry!


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## Vance G

Apivar/or tactic on shop towels has been overused in most places to the point that a better mite has been bred that can resist it. Some folks may find success with it because their mites are not yet resistent to it. I use apiguard on strong colonies only in seventies and eighties conditions. It matters how you use it! The bees must not be able to encapsulate it. I use my multipurpose 2 1/2" deep feeder rims when placing it on top bars and that seems to do the trick. I killed a whole bunch of splits one year with it and now only use it on strong production colonies. For now Oxalic acid is the go to treatment. I am afraid I place brood breaks with the Angel Fart genera of treatment that may make you feel good but have very little practical utility if you are interested in a honey crop.


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## SeaCucumber

I heard about using 1/2 strength Apiguard. What's the minimum strength needed to keep the mites phoretic (but not necessarily kill them)?


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## SeaCucumber

Vance G said:


> brood breaks with the Angel Fart


Brood breaks are useful. All the evidence and testimonials say that. 

Here's the University of Georgia study that says it makes oxalic 6x more effective.


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## Plannerwgp

RayMarler said:


> Please note: I used Apiguard 15 years ago, maybe more, back when it first came out and got approved in California. I tried it one year and never again since. It may be that it's not the same thing now a days as it was way back then.
> 
> I've used both. I did not like the results of ApiGuard. It's strong and I did not like it's effects on the queen or the hive as a whole. No deaths, but it interrupts her laying, and the hive spends it's time trying to get rid of it or encase it. I didn't like the upset it caused in the hives and it didn't give me good results.
> Apivar is great, the bees don't even act as if anything is there, including the queen, and it keeps the mites down for me. I've used it in the past and I'm using it now this is the 3rd year.


Ray
What schedule would you recommend when starting with new nucs in 10 frame deeps?


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## William Bagwell

SeaCucumber said:


> Brood breaks are useful. All the evidence and testimonials say that.
> 
> Here's the University of Georgia study that says it makes oxalic 6x more effective.


A single random OAV treatment is just as much of an Angel Fart as a brood break with no other treatment. Which is what I _think _Vance G was implying? A single OAV during a brood break is very effective as you point out. Perfect plan except the part about forcing the brood break when the treatment needs to be done. Most bees ain't going to cooperate. Part of why I chose thermal as my back up treatment.


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## massbee

For me, treatment is not on a schedule. Mite monitoring is. I alcohol wash every month. Treat if necessary. Treating on a schedule without monitoring doesn’t make sense to me. If you are treating and don’t need to, it’s a waste of money and could possible contribute to resistance of your treatment method.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

brood breaks that aren't during a flow or don't have one up an coming retard winter cluster size.


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## SeaCucumber

Some problems with this.

18 days is not long enough. The new hive(s) might get drone eggs. Those drones might emerge 25 days later.
To get the longer brood break, don't start with queen cells. That way, it takes at least 19 days to get a laying queen. At 27 days, any brood should not be capped.
Using Apivar or Apiguard between the brood breaks could reduce mite drift. It might be too much work.
I had an idea to make this easier (no finding queens) and shorten the brood break. Before Randy's method, use an excluder to prepare the new hive so it doesn't have young brood.
This year, I plan to do OAV, 3 Apiguard treatments, OAV.

no brood break
Strong Apiguard would be 1/2 or full strength.
I want to cover a full drone brood cycle.
Treatments will start and end strong.
I will pull the last Apiguard treatment out in <3 days. That will make it end strong.
The middle Apiguard treatment doesn't have to kill mites, so it might be weaker.
I'm thinking of doing brood breaks every other year. On the BB years, the only treatment would be OAV. The other years, it would be OAV and Apiguard or Apivar.


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## RayMarler

Plannerwgp said:


> Ray
> What schedule would you recommend when starting with new nucs in 10 frame deeps?


I can only tell you what I do here in my location.
I run all 8 frame medium boxes throughout, up to 3 boxes high.
In late March I put 2 apivar strips across the top bars of the bottom box.
This gives treatment during swarm season and drone brood production.
In September, I do the same thing again to give protection during fall population reduction and consolidation.
This has worked for me. 100% survival last 2 winters.
Other management factors ( and plain old dumb luck) may contribute to the success.

You starting off with nucs, I think I'd do an alcohol wash to see what loads are for now, and treat if needed, but for sure do the treatments in early fall after pulling off any honey you might get.


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## SeaCucumber

Suppose someone put in Apivar strips, pulled them out after 42 days, and stopped treating. If the treatment is weak at the end, they could get a lot more mite resistance. Wouldn't it be better do do a sudden treatment immediately after pulling them out?


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## SeaCucumber

A study by Frank Rinkevich suggests amitraz is more effective in the spring.


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## ifixoldhouses

Apiguards better because one tub will do a ton of hives, cheaper than 50 Apivar, I'd need like 100 Apivar to do them all.


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## SeaCucumber

I plan to use 1 treatment per year that is not oxalic. I think this will usually be Apivar. I'm in the middle of an Apiguard treatment. I want to kill mites that are resistant to Apivar. I'm going to become treatment free. I think this will often involve Apivar in summer (with oxalic immediately before and after). The Apivar will have a year to wear off. Soon before installing a treatment free queen, I'll make a broodless split and use oxalic on it. Oxalic wears off fast, so the hive won't have much treatment when it becomes treatment free.


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## Lazy K

I was going to try formic acid but we are in a nectar dearth and I'm feeding the bees sugar syrup. I was told NOT to use Formic acid or Thymol (apiguard) while feeding syrup. Plus it's between 85 & 90 degrees F so it's too hot for formic acid. Right? Can I feed syrup with Apivar? I'm planning on following up with oxalic id necessary. Thoughts? I'm a total newbie. Also, one of my hives is small. Can I use Apivar on a small hive?


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## elmer_fud

Lazy K said:


> Plus it's between 85 & 90 degrees F so it's too hot for formic acid.


This is correct, the upper temperature limit for formic pro is 80. A bit lower is better. 

With a small hive (nuc) you only use 1 strip of apivar.

I have had mixed luck with all of the mite treatments I have tried. Some years apivar seems to work, and others it has not. I have had problems with formic with a well ventalated hive (quilt box) or when it was very large, but it has worked fine when I close the top and use the 2 pad method with large (5 box) hives. OAV works most of the time, but it is more work. OAV with a wand also does not seem to get to the top of large (5 frame) hives as well.[/QUOTE]


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