# Virgin combs required for best honey?



## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

Is honey from virgin combs noticeably better? 

Is honey from comb that has had brood in it noticeably/measurably darker or nastier to taste? Anyone know of studies that report on this?

In his 1983 _Bee Talk_ column, Richard Taylor wrote that hives kept for extracted honey should use queen excluders, and honey should only be extracted from comb that has never been used for brood.

Are those of us using checker-boarding and unlimited brood nest, sacrificing having the truly exquisite honey that can only come from virgin comb?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is honey from virgin combs noticeably better?

IMO, no.

>Is honey from comb that has had brood in it noticeably/measurably darker or nastier to taste? 

IMO, no.

>Anyone know of studies that report on this?

The only ones I ever read said there was no difference, but I don't remember when and where I read it and many people seem to believe it matters.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

I agree with Michael. This summer I extracted honey from both new combs and from some really really old black combs- so old in fact I'm retiring them. I kept the honey separate. It was the same kind of honey (the rare and elusive but delectable Maine Wildflower honey) and I can't tell which was extracted from which combs and neither can anyone else. It is a nice light amber honey this year.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Yea but it sucks to uncap with a hot knife or uncapper. The cocoons hang and the comb tears up.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Yes, virgin comb provides the best honey!

I have read information that basically said that for the best (lightest) honey, you should have light wax and not let brood be raised in your super combs. That somehow the dark coccoon color and darker wax will "leech" into the honey. Makes sense to me, even if many dispute this. Funny how many just get caught up in "color", and stop there.

I do think it goes beyond honey color. As MichaelW mentioned, uncapping clean comb is much better then darker, coccoon filled comb that has been used for brood.

I also will mention that wax moths hardly will ever touch comb that was never used for brood. So, storing comb can be done without crystals, BT, sulfur treatments, and whatever else people use. So across the board....does vigin comb make the "best honey"? You betcha.

And if your bees don't need to repair comb even with "minor" comb damage, from uncapping or wax moth damage....they will make more honey also. All that cleaning and damage repair takes resources.

Maintaining good clean wax in your supers pays for itself for a little extra effort.

And for those wondering. I have my best wax in supers where I use queen excluders. And I NEVER have trouble with bees storing honey above an excluder. Of course I use upper entrances. But thats another discussion.


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

Thanks George for your experimental results, and thanks BjornBee for your counterpoint.
155 years after Langstroth, and beekeeping has so many unresolved issues. Amazing.

A little OT: Is a flail uncapper better able to uncap comb with cocoons than a knife?

Way OT: BjornBee, how do you handle queen and drone movement with upper entrances and excluders?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

PS,
Most of my hives have the standard bottom entrance and a 3/4 inch hole in the second brood chamber. My bottom entrance is no more than the 3/8 inch high, about 6 inch long opening, allowed with using the metal entrance reducers as seen in the Dadant catalog.

Come spring, some bees will be using the bottom entrance, and some will be using the top "hole" entrance.

When I add a super, which also has a 3/4 inch hole, I plug the hole below in the brood chamber. The bees naturally just migrate up to the next hole, as they are accustomed to using a hole anyways. Whether a queen excluder is used makes no difference. The bees foraging come back, and are now entering above the excluder and into the supers. Most of my supers have these holes, and I can plug closed with corks/paper, or leave multiple upper entrances for strong hives with many supers.

So any queen/drone issues are still handled by the lower entrance. The upper entrance allows bees to bring in nectar without going into the brood chamber(less swarming), allows better air flow and helps with dehydrating nectar down, among other benefits.

I prefer this hole as an entrance better than an inner cover hole. I can close it very simple for moving hives, and can open the top lid and inner cover without the bees now missing their entrance.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

*Just thoughts;.....no experience.*

Interesting question. A beekeeper could take a frame of old comb; a frame of "virgin"? comb and use the crush and strain method and then taste the difference. When uncapping, using a hot knife, there is some melting/burning of the wax that may get into the honey and give it a "flavor" when extracting the normal way. Of course the frames would preferably come from the same hive and the same "nectar" source. I have been keeping bees for only 4 years so I don't have frames that would be considered "old". There may be times when frames get switched around and "old" comb gets placed in supers meant for honey only.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

The "rule" to never use brood comb for honey probably comes from the fact that medications are used on the brood chamber, and making honey from frames that have been medicated would be, well... poisoning your customers to say the least.

Now if the brood comb in question has never been medicated, then you get into the questions of, ease (or lack of) to extract and effect or not on taste.


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

>> Now if the brood comb in question has never been medicated, . . .

That is why I posted this question in the Biological Beekeeping forum. None of my brood comb as ever been medicated so it is an issure for me.

I like to be able to move comb around, and I also want to sell the best possible honey.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I think what got this notion started was an experiment where someone soaked a frame of brood comb in a bucket of water, only to have the water become stained and brown like tea. They concluded that this is what happens to your honey when you extract the dark brood combs.

Unfortunately, my failing memory cannot locate the source of this experiment, but it's just barely sufficient to remember the gist of the test, and even that gist is open to verification.

And I'm not sure that honey and water stand on equal ground when it comes to absorbing the yuckiness out of brood combs.

I don't use hard chemicals so I don't have that concern of remnant traces of miticides. Further, I've also read that bees will transfer nectar and honey around the hive which, if true, makes me suspect of any honey irrespective of which brood box or super it comes from.

I will share this story, however. I was giving a talk in the local high school about bees. I had my observation hive and a host of slides and pictures. I also had an empty frame of foundation plus a slab of empty, dry, dark brood comb from a recent cut out. I demonstrated how we beekeepers place foundation in the hive and the bees draw it out, and in nature, the bees have the engineering skills to make it on their own.

One of the macho, burly football players speaks up and says, "Yeah, my grandpa used to keep bees and I used to chew the honey comb all the time. Gimme a piece of that comb."

So I obliged.

He started chewing this dry, dark brood comb. After about ten seconds he mutters, "This stuff tastes like sh*t!"

Sensing a teaching moment, I said, "And let me tell you why." I proceded then to tell the class how the bees use the comb for raising larvae, how the larvae molt and deficate, and how these cells are used over and over. 

"That," I concluded, "is why that comb fails to meet your discriminating tastes."

Then I shared how beekeepers make edible comb honey for sale.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Moonshae (Jun 7, 2007)

Grant said:


> I think what got this notion started was an experiment where someone soaked a frame of brood comb in a bucket of water, only to have the water become stained and brown like tea. They concluded that this is what happens to your honey when you extract the dark brood combs.
> 
> Unfortunately, my failing memory cannot locate the source of this experiment, but it's just barely sufficient to remember the gist of the test, and even that gist is open to verification.


I've boiled a frame of wax removed during a crush and strain sampling, and indeed, the water turns dark brown if it's been used for brood. The wax floats, the cocoons stick to the bottom (nasty) and the water is a dark color. The honey was already a darker honey, but I didn't find that the taste was affected.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Definitely if you're selling comb honey.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I use the crush and strain method of honey extraction, and i would definitely say that old comb produces wonky tasting honey which is occasionally peppered with cocoon fragments and clouded with aged pollen. I am reluctant even to feed such honey back to the bees and sometimes just discard frames rather then crush them.


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