# Treatment free???



## crewdog61 (Oct 23, 2012)

I am in my 3rd year of bee keeping, Do not want to treat at all, looking at the girls everytime that the hives are inspected. Drone larva inspected have not found any mites, that said being told buy older bee keepers you have mites and small hive beatles. All that has been found so far are roaches (very few) and ants in one hive. Drop check in 24 hours shows nothing, so either doing something wrong or no mites. 

1) What if any other ways could you check for mites? 

2) Can I not have any mites? 

The only things that has been done different this year was to put a heavy layer ( meaning turned the ground white) of rock salt around the ground and the hives in early spring about 3 foot circle have not had any grass grow all year. Used cinnamon in and around the hives for ants. 

Any input would be great..:thumbsup:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Other methods of checking for mites include a sample of bees in a jar with powdered sugar, or a jar of alcohol. Sampling brood with a cappings fork is another possibility. More on all those methods here:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-reconnaissance-mite-sampling/


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## stajerc61 (Nov 17, 2009)

Like the man said, alcohol wash N roll or crack open some drone brood. If you have them you will spot them immediately crawling around on the larvae.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

crewdog61 said:


> 2) Can I not have any mites?


No. You've got 'em.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Also, be aware that mites fallen to a count board can be scavenged by other insects, such as ants and earwigs, and thus not be seen by the beekeeper. References in post #2 of this thread. I didn't see any reference to roaches scavenging varroa, but ....


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I do not check for mites. Never have, never will. I simply assume my bees have them, but deal with them. I know that may be heresy to some folks, but since I have treatment free bees, why waste my time testing for mites? Now, I will, when inspecting the hives, look at any drone larvae that become exposed when I separate frames and boxes. Haven't seen any since 2005. But, I know I have mites.

And here in Missouri we have SHB. Simply MUST deal with those critters.

Crewdog, if you don't want to treat, I hope you acquired treatment free bees from a breeder or somewhere that never treated. Otherwise you may be in for a very unpleasant surprise. 
Regards,
Steven


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## crewdog61 (Oct 23, 2012)

Thank's beemandan thinking I am good at inspecting have been doing that for 34 years in my current job, attention to detail is a must, so looking for a mite should be easy right?? lol


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

If someone reported that they only occasionally (in regular, at least once per week 72-hour sticky-boarding) see one or two mites, but mostly see zero, I would believe that they have a very low level of mites which is presently not an issue.

But if they they've never seen any mites using a sticky board, then I'd think they were probably just not seeing the mites that were there. Or that other insects were snatching the mites off the board before the count was done.

Why not do a sugar roll and see what level of mites are actually on the nurse bees selected from open and capped brood? Unlike alcohol and ether rolls (which kill the tested bees) the powdered sugar roll only annoys most of the bees tested, but it yields data you can't get from a sticky board. I sticky board constantly to keep an eye on mite levels, but have added sugar rolls when deciding what to do about the info I get from my boards.

What you decide to do about your mites is a different issue from knowing accurately what level of parasitization you have.

Salt around the hives may be good against SHB, but it will have no effect on mites since they spend their entire lives in the hive, on the bees' bodies and in the pupal cells. I'd be concerned about that much salt on the ground for reasons of soil health and surface water run-off problems.

Enj.


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## crewdog61 (Oct 23, 2012)

enjambres, I am not to worried about the ground, if any run off at all it stays in the area treated so no worries, and good if it gets the SHB just saying the only thing that was done different this year from last year was the salt out around the hives. last year had SHB this year not seeing them. As to not not seeing mites if (I) do not see them, Maybe doing this all wrong I don't see them, not saying there are none. 

Guessing MAYBE I am looking for lots of mites on every bee that is looked at, these bees are swarms and 1 over wintered from last year. Will try a sugar roll to see what can be found. thanks for the input.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

If the bees are doing fine, I wouldn't worry about it. That being said, I've seen where people were adamant they've never seen a mite, don't have mites and can't figure out why they're hives are in decline when they were actually infested with mites and the person just didn't actually know a mite when they were seeing them probably.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1) What if any other ways could you check for mites? 

Sugar roll. Mite counts on a sticky board.

>2) Can I not have any mites? 

You are in North America. You have mites. You may or may not have a problem with mites.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

crewdog61 said:


> I am good at inspecting have been doing that for 34 years in my current job, attention to detail is a must, so looking for a mite should be easy right?? lol


 Was there something in my reply that offended you?


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## crewdog61 (Oct 23, 2012)

No sir not at all just wanting to find out if any what might I be doing in correctly is all. Wanting to do the best for the bees have gone pretty much small cell, But never have added anything to the hives. Have heard on this forum to treat or they will die not wanting that, have really strong hives with good stores and hive weights are all very heavy. 
May do sugar roll for a better idea on count, then think about what to do.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

natural mite drop is not very accurate
sugar roll is better
alcohol wash even more accurate (but lethal to the bees tested)
opening drone brood tells you if you have mites in your drone brood (also lethal to bees in cells opened)

Whenever I see a negative (no mite) test I wonder 1) was the test done right? 2) what could be going on with these bees that could result in a non-existent mite count? Escalating the tests performed and/or getting someone else to do the tests would be the primary options that might assuage my doubt.

Of course no test will tell you how to respond to the results unless it is properly reporting no mite presence.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

JRG13 said:


> If the bees are doing fine, I wouldn't worry about it.


This is where I get concerned. Professional, conventional beekeepers have some sort of objective threshold to determine when to treat. None that are successful wait until the colony shows signs of distress.
I cannot say this in any stronger terms. If you've chosen to be treatment free....stay the course.....NO MATTER WHAT. No treatments I'm aware of will save a colony in collapse....and most will speed up the decline....and that includes, in my opinion, oxalic acid. 
All you can do by treating a failing, treatment free hive is cloud the issue of what caused the failure.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Apivar is gentle enough to bring them back, long as the hive still has enough bees & time to get a healthy brood cycle through. If it doesn't, I add a frame of hatching brood from a healthy hive. 

Agree though, once a certain point has been reached many treatments can hasten the demise especially products based on thymol or organic acids.

About people not seeing mites I had an interesting experience a few years ago. I was attempting treatment free beekeeping and searching for resistant queens. As part of that I dropped a bulk email to the members of the local bee club, around 400 people, asking if anyone had hives that had been more than 12 months with no treatment & still doing well, and if so could I have a look & take a few larvae from it to raise queens from.
Had a number of replies but in each case when I got there the hive was in terrible shape with dead brood and sickly adults. Still bees flying though so looked OK from outside. But what really surprised me was when I said the hive was overrun with mites the owners still could not see it. Even when I showed mites on bees, mites in brood, killed brood and virus affected adults some of the owners were looking at me sideways & thinking I was full of baloney.
After clocking up a lot of miles and time to look at sick and dying hives I stopped bothering with the whole thing even though people would still call.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Apivar is gentle enough to bring them back, long as the hive still has enough bees & time to get a healthy brood cycle through. If it doesn't, I add a frame of hatching brood from a healthy hive.


Apivar MIGHT be the one treatment that would turn around a failing hive. Two issues, to my thinking. Being a synthetic compound it would be totally against most treatment free beekeepers philosophical allowances. Secondly, it is such a low dosage that I don't think it would work quickly enough to save a hive already in decline. But it might.
I hope all is well on the opposite side of the planet.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

you would need x-ray vision to see them under the brood cappings. 

i can find one every now and then on a drone larvae that has been removed from its cell. the red mite stands out nicely in contrast to the white larva.

i question a person with average vision being able to readily see them on an adult bee, especially through a veil, and especially since the mites tend to burrow into the small cracks in the bee's anatomy.


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