# Hybrid modified Layens.



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OK, looks like I never created a unified topic on making the hybrid Layens hives.
Here goes then - will put together few notes and pictures on what I know and what I have done.
Because I had many unused Lang boxes, I repurposed them to make hybrid Layens.

The idea came from this blueprint, but I made my versions as light and simple as possible - for mobility.










I got 5 of these rigs in my inventory and they work fine - smaller and lighter versions of the same.
These are made for mobility when you have no help and can move then around alone.
The core unit is made of *three medium *10-frame Lang boxes - glued together into a uni-body.

The modified frames will go crosswise - about 12-13 frames.
The core box made from the Lang boxes will be too wide as-is - the frame rests are made by attaching 1/2" planks from inside. Because there is excessive empty space below the frame rests, I use it to create "insulating sandwich" and the reinforcement "ribs" to hold the uni-body together.

You can super the rig vertically with regular Lang boxes/frames.
Unless is filled with frames for honey flow, I always have an empty super above the core - it just makes sense to have it as the utility space - feeding/drying frames/insulation/storage/bee spill-over space.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Few pics:


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

I see you are in Dane County, just north of me. How have these overwintered? Have you tried an insulated version of one yet like the insulated layens design?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> I see you are in Dane County, just north of me. How have these overwintered? Have you tried an insulated version of one yet like the insulated layens design?


Overwinter fine.
If anything that kills my bees - this is me experimenting with the TF (not the winter and not the hives).

The upper utility box is large enough for any amount of top insulation of any kind (very convenient for top feeding too).
The side insulation is easily achieved with the dummy boards.
Front/back insulation is in place already - I have those sandwiches designed-in as-is.
Of course, external foam slabs/snow are always usable as needed.

Typical wintering setup is as pictured.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

GregV said:


> Overwinter fine.
> If anything that kills my bees - this is me experimenting with the TF (not the winter and not the hives).
> 
> The upper utility box is large enough for any amount of top insulation of any kind (very convenient for top feeding too).
> ...


What strain of bees are you typically running in them? Or is that a moving target as well?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> What strain of bees are you typically running in them? Or is that a moving target as well?


Whatever I catch - goes in.
All bees around here are mutts, anyway.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

Gotcha, so you're not buying any... just catching swarms.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> Gotcha, so you're not buying any... just catching swarms.


Correct.


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## madhu (Feb 2, 2021)

GregV I'm a huge fan of your work, you're really on it here with this mode you have going on. I'm going to watch this thread. Right now Im just totally inspired. 

My mind is really wandering towards utilizing all the Lang gear so widely available versus having to make every bit on my own. 

I am considering the possibility of using these "lang deep stacks" and then insulate and dress them up on the outside with something nice like cedar and wool (or cheaper would be scorched pine). Technically one could even make some nice removable /modular insulated panels (you mentioned using foam or snow so thats quick cheap and easy). I'm into aesthetics as I'm sure many are and I'd love to make some sweet cedar insulator panels that you can zip together around the hive in the fall and open it up in spring. thoughts? 

Also, GregV whats your parameters on bee space for this hive style? sides, top, between frames? I know im a speculator but I've been mulling over the 9mm used by Perone, and as Dave Cushman speaks about using 9mm and 6mm but I don't know exactly when and where. I worked on a imperial conversion and I think our best would be 11/32" and I'd like to hear your experienced advice, and or others?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

madhu said:


> thoughts?
> 
> Also, GregV whats your parameters on bee space for this hive style? sides, top, between frames? I know im a speculator but I've been mulling over the 9mm used by Perone, and as Dave Cushman speaks about using 9mm and 6mm but I don't know exactly when and where. I worked on a imperial conversion and I think our best would be 11/32" and I'd like to hear your experienced advice, and or others?


I don't really bend backwards to get all the millimeters inline - does not matter that much with horizontal hives.
One of the great features of the single level hives - you can afford to be sloppy.

~0.5" bees space is close enough and it works everywhere and it is an easy setting for all the tools and cuts.

Again - the entire hive internally is build around this double-frame dimension.
Measure it and figure things out for yourself.

One note - some of my top bars are TOO thick (made from the time when I did not super the long hives yet). So I need to replace some of them to my "standard" - 0.5" thick.
Really, my "standard" everywhere I can get away with it - *0.5"*
It works and if you stick to it, everything around things just fits.
The frames are mostly 1.25" wide (or Standard Lang width where reused).


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

I attached the frames but am wondering if I should cut the ears off or not. If shimmed with wood to fill the gap created between the ears and then adding a top bar for hanging, would that create too big of a gap for them to cross up to supers if I put them on? I'm hesitant to cut them in the event I decided to revert back.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

I didn't see your last post prior to sending mine. I see you have ears on one, with a rod thru them. Does the gap created between the ears create any problems? I assume they would build some sort of bridge comb there up to the bottom of the supers. Has that been your experience?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

bjorn said:


> View attachment 62134
> 
> I attached the frames but am wondering if I should cut the ears off or not. If shimmed with wood to fill the gap created between the ears and then adding a top bar for hanging, would that create too big of a gap for them to cross up to supers if I put them on? I'm hesitant to cut them in the event I decided to revert back.


leave the ears, and the space, the space will be used for cross travel in winter, some of it built in, no worries, and backward comparable. A screw into each end bar and a wire in the center ,thru each corner of the 2 frames, and into a hole drilled into the top bar, could then do touching top bars, Layens style.

looks good

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> I didn't see your last post prior to sending mine. I see you have ears on one, with a rod thru them. Does the gap created between the ears create any problems? I assume they would build some sort of bridge comb there up to the bottom of the supers. Has that been your experience?


Just use a soft cover (burlap, etc) if only doing a single level to reduce crazy combs over the "eared" frames.

However, keep in mind that IF you want to super up vertically, you then prefer proper top bars - need to cut the ears off. This is so you can maintain proper spacing.
But me too - I hate destroying perfectly fine wooden frames.
I only cut up the plastic frames anymore, but keep the wooden Langs as-is - not cutting.

I have not expanded vertically over the "eared" frames yet.
These I only use when no other options left.
Actually, supering over the "eared" frames has only one nuance - you can not insert a regular frame just directly over the row of ears (they go at 90 degrees with respect to each other). 
Then don't fight the ears, just leave that space empty (OR a top bar only OR a smaller frame).


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

GregV said:


> However, keep in mind that IF you want to super up vertically, you then prefer proper top bars - need to cut the ears off. This is so you can maintain proper spacing.


Have you tried this in a longer format... aka splicing to of your "rigs" together to create a 20 frame, or in this case, 24 frame, long rig? It seems that would be closer to the Layens dimensions. It seems with only 12 frames you would HAVE to super or risk overpopulating the box resulting in a swarm.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

Also, what is your bottom board? I don't see a traditional bottom board, nor would you seem to need one with multiple side entrances. Is it just a flat bottom? Ever tried the peat moss filled bottom board? I'm just fishing for ideas and feedback on those ideas.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> Have you tried this in a longer format... aka splicing to of your "rigs" together to create a 20 frame, or in this case, 24 frame, long rig? It seems that would be closer to the Layens dimensions. It seems with only 12 frames you would HAVE to super or risk overpopulating the box resulting in a swarm.


Why, sure.
In fact, I started with long hives before I made the hybrids.
Here is a 20-frame rig.

But why worry of the over-population? 
You simply grow the hybrid up if needed.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

So, did you move away from them for any particular reason? Too hard to transport, not as simple to work as advertised, filled up too fast? I hope you don't mind the 20 questions routine.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> Also, what is your bottom board? I don't see a traditional bottom board, nor would you seem to need one with multiple side entrances. Is it just a flat bottom? Ever tried the peat moss filled bottom board? I'm just fishing for ideas and feedback on those ideas.


Just a flat attached bottom with ventilation slits.
None of the humidity-management gymnastics are needed (peat moss, etc).
If anything, there is too much ventilation with sufficient under-frame space (not the other way around).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> So, did you move away from them for any particular reason? Too hard to transport, not as simple to work as advertised, filled up too fast? I hope you don't mind the 20 questions routine.


Why, I did not move away from the long hives.
I actively use them every season (in fact, I fill them up first - they are the most ergonomic hives I have; they are the easiest to work).
I simply don't move them around anymore - takes two people (unless you want to hurt yourself; I used to move empty long rigs alone when empty, but the shoulders are hurting lately).
So, now days my four long hives are stationed permanently.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

Great info... thanks. The wheels are turning for sure.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

Is there anything between the "rig" and the utility box? I see a 1x2 strip around the base of the super... just wondering what its purpose is.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> Is there anything between the "rig" and the utility box? I see a 1x2 strip around the base of the super... just wondering what its purpose is.


Optional 1x2 strip is to just to keep the box in place/stop water, wind, and robbing, etc


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

Are the roofs insulated or vented? They look to be 2-3 inches deep, curious what's inside that space.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> Are the roofs insulated or vented? They look to be 2-3 inches deep, curious what's inside that space.


The hybrid roofs have a standard slab of 2 inch hard foam inside.
The very original roofs are also ventilated through the sides - there is a passage.

The last two hybrids I made, I don't even ventilate the roof anymore and instead ventilate the upper utility box.

All in all, the uni-body made from 3 medium Lang boxes will have ~2 inches of under-frame space.
That together with the air pockets and plenty of space above make this entire "winter ventilation issue" a non-issue.
Attaching a generic picture of how the Layens works in winter.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

Interesting... the 5 holes(multiple entrances and top cover vent have not caused excessive ventilation... aka heat loss? I see the follower boards are insulated, but the main box has to be pretty minimal insulation. I calculate enough room for up to 3/4" max frame rest/box attachment thickness. That leaves less than 3/4" for insulation. It seems to be working for you so the wall insulation must not be a significant factor as some layens plans indicate. Obviously the top insulation is to prevent condensation dripping on the cluster.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm wondering if just some recycled bubblewrap covered in thin plywood between the frame rest/box attachment cleats would provide sufficient insulation.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> I'm wondering if just some recycled bubblewrap covered in thin plywood between the frame rest/box attachment cleats would provide sufficient insulation.


Should work.
You have about 1/2 inch to work with - whatever fits should work.
I got a roll of 1/4" thick underlayment from when I finished my basement with laminated floor - that underlayment makes for a good insulating material to make 1/2" thick insulating sandwich (covered with thin plywood or particle board).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> Interesting... the 5 holes(multiple entrances and top cover vent have not caused excessive ventilation... aka heat loss?


I am not sure I follow.
What is important - there is no air drafting through the frames/cluster.
It is a box-inside-box configuration, well insulated on the top.

All in all, after several seasons I concluded, bee genetics/mite management are the "elephant in the room" to be looked at.
Whatever I am doing about the hives is fine and works.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

That makes alot of sense. What is the green in your diagram? I see the insulated follower boards and top insulation. Is the green more insulation?


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

It appears by using #9 wire to hang the frames that a super fits on top just fine without interference. I'm liking how this all fits together neatly. Thanks for the info!!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> That makes alot of sense. What is the green in your diagram? I see the insulated follower boards and top insulation. Is the green more insulation?


Green - polyester blanket or similar insulator that dries out well.
So you have no wind blowing across the attic, end to end.
And yet no moisture build up.
Simple polyester blankets work great (I wish I had scrap woolen blankets to cut up, but I don't).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> It appears by using #9 wire to hang the frames that a super fits on top just fine without interference. I'm liking how this all fits together neatly. Thanks for the info!!


Indeed, that stub sticking up is really just about the same size as a top bar cross-cut.
Of course, the bees will build up some bur comb to fill the extra empty space - but that isn't really a big deal.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm thinking about the bigger picture, the whole system if you will. My swarm traps are set up for traditional lang med frames. When a swarm starts drawing comb they obviously start drawing comb hanging down from these. Do you think these partial combs would withstand the 90 degree rotation into a long hive? Obviously they are not all this far drawn out.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

These traps could be made to hang vertically, but that would take a fair amount of modification.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> Do you think these partial combs would withstand the 90 degree rotation into a long hive?


Fresh combs heavy with honey are likely to tear.
Otherwise, should hold.
You may give a couple of wraps with painter's tape proactively there and here when turning live frames.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

bjorn said:


> I'm thinking about the bigger picture, the whole system if you will. My swarm traps are set up for traditional lang med frames. When a swarm starts drawing comb they obviously start drawing comb hanging down from these. Do you think these partial combs would withstand the 90 degree rotation into a long hive? Obviously they are not all this far drawn out.
> View attachment 62191


so fasten the frames with a small screw and rotate the trap.....

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

or set the medium on top of the other frames, when transferring to a "normal" hive, and let them build down. should not IMO rotate the frames 90Degrees after built unless it is feed frames they will eat the honey if needed, not sure they would brood in them.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> so fasten the frames with a small screw and rotate the trap.....
> 
> GG


Yep.
And if the cover keeps the frames tight in place already, even the screws are not required (instead - screw in the cover).
Should work just as well.
Treat the current roof like a removable wall, instead (just do something to prevent rain entering - a piece of tarp works).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> should not IMO rotate the frames 90Degrees after built unless it is feed frames they will eat the honey if needed, *not sure they would brood in them.*


Sure they will.
They do for me all the time.


The real question is - do you prefer the Lazutin style or the modified Layens style.
Choose one and proceed.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> Sure they will.
> They do for me all the time.
> 
> 
> ...


so a 90 degree frame will be used? I was understanding they tear out the walls and rebuild it to the 15 degree angle, hmmm good to know

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> *so a 90 degree frame will be used?* I was understanding they tear out the walls and rebuild it to the 15 degree angle, hmmm good to know


Sure it may.
This is what I have been saying for years now, GG. 

But the more correct answer is - it depends.
They may rebuild OR they may re-use just as is - may happen either way for reasons unknown.


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## BlueRidgeBee (Jun 12, 2013)

thinking of starting to experiment with the extra deep frames something like this (joined with zips.. ). Three stacked medium boxes would accept it. Would be interested to see how much of the depth they actually use in my setting.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BlueRidgeBee said:


> Would be interested to see how much of the depth they actually use in my setting.


Pretty much the 10-20% of the foundation at the very bottom will go unused.
This is consistent with a medium bottom box usage - bees normally use it to "hang out" (and not much else) when they have plenty of space otherwise. 

You want be sure to use follower boards and keep them tight that way (you don't want to give them too many frames at once).
If kept tight, they will go down as low as they consider "normal".
If kept too open, they will stick close to the top bars and will not go down too much.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

You guys beat me to it. I've been brainstorming on how to modify the traps to mount them upright. Not as easy as it looks, but definitely doable. The bottoms are quite thin and would not support the weight. I'll have to add crossbracing to hang that way and change the roof configuration. Also, they are med frames in deep boxes, so could end up with some misc comb hanging in the open space.
I do think it would be better to just have them start drawing in the same direction/plane that they will ultimately be transferred to.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> they are med frames in deep boxes,


Well, just use the deep frames then in your traps.
There is absolutely nothing that prevents you from putting those into your modified Layens either.
Yes, they will be a little loose and temporary, but then what?
Most problems are artificial and human-imagined only - as if you miss a millimeter there or here, your bees will die. 

Here is just one Lang deep frame (of many) that I use directly from a trap into a hive (and they end up there forever).


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

GregV, you forget I don't own any deep frames. I can shave down the deep boxes if necessary. But, I'm hoping that with a bunch of empty medium frames with guides(popsicle sticks) and a frame of drawn comb in between, they'll build their comb in the frames. I will replace the current covers with a proper sidewall and screw it in place to hold the frames steady.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

So back to your ventilation. For winter, with the insulated follower boards and the already insulated long walls, you create an insulated box within the larger box as you say. Covering the top of the frames with a moisture absorbing mat eliminates any draft thru the cavity in which the bees overwinter. The hole in the bottom board appears to be at the opposite end of the box as the main entrance(lower side holes) and other vent holes. I assume the hole in the bottom board is screened? Is this correct?
What is the approximate diameter of the bottom board vent hole?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> The hole in the bottom board appears to be at the opposite end of the box as the main entrance(lower side holes) and other vent holes. I assume the hole in the bottom board is screened? Is this correct?


The bottom vents are certainly screened from the bees and varmints. That's given.

FYI, what I drew was a single colony unit.
The large hives have entrances on both corners and a central vent.
Pretty much I am not sure the vent is even needed.
I had vents just taped over in one of the long hives since about two years ago and still have them taped.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

Are the bottom vent holes your "goto" 1/2" ? Are there multiple holes?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bjorn said:


> Are the bottom vent holes your "goto" 1/2" ? Are there multiple holes?


I have all kinds.
1/2" x 4 inch slots.
1" round holes.
A row of 1/2" holes.
One vent, two vents, 3 vents.
No vents too.
You name it.
------------------------
Does not matter as long as accidental bulk water drains somehow.
Like I have been saying - having ~2 inch under frame space takes care of everything (AND your frame is already tall). All this ventilation concerns are an issue for Lang operators.


I even have just a slotted bottom where each plank is separated by a penny width.
Like so (for my CVH).
Slightly afraid mice might chew through this one - no metal screen.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

@GregV which entrance holes do your bees prefer, lower or upper, on the Layens or modified Layens


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tigger19687 said:


> @GregV which entrance holes do your bees prefer, lower or upper, on the Layens or modified Layens


They prefer top entrances hands down - end of story.
There could be some variation, but the top holes always have solid usage.

If you have entrance setup like pictured below AND you have the top holes opened, expect the bees fighting for the small upper hole, while the larger bottom hole will be half-used.

And so - in summer I plug up the upper most hole(s) as counter-productive.
The top holes are only essential in winter/early spring for ventilation and for actual entry in cold conditions (bottom entry is too cold).

One more essential reason to have the upper hole(s) plugged/tapped in summer - honey and brood orientation on the large frames (this is specifically the large frame feature). 

The bottom entrance pulls the brood down and by fall you'd have good brood/honey allocation on the frame - brood on the bottom/honey band above it.
With the top hole(s), you'd have not an optimal picture - brood up front and too high/honey on the back.


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## habattack (May 16, 2017)

This thread was very helpful to me, so I thought that I'd post this weekend's project. I built a horizontal hive using three medium hive bodies, very similar to previous posts, although with some alterations.
A few years ago, I built some medium hive bodies using 2"x8" lumber (actual thickness 1 1/2") with the purpose of providing better insulation. Of course, these are heavier so I use them only for brood boxes, and super with standard medium boxes. So I used three of these thick boxes to build my horizontal hive.

1. I stacked & glued three boxes, and used 3/8" plywood as a floor. I insulated the side walls with 1/2" foam and covered it with 1/8" plywood.









2. On the bottom of the back wall, I created a drawer bottom board. This will serve to remove debris & dead bees from the bottom. It will also be used to insert my OA vaporizer.









3. I made a front entrance 6" wide x 1/2" high. It's located about 4 inches from the bottom in the center of the wall. Note that the entrance is on the "warm way" side. I screened it with 1/2" mesh.









4. I cut off the top ears to build frames. I also built two insulated (1/2") follower boards, covered in 1/8" plywood.

























5. I used my previously made inner cover (for the thicker boxes) and outer cover. The outer cover is 3/8" plywood with 1" foam insulation, covered on the inside by a moisture board. 
















6. I didn't put any ventilation holes. My box is far from air-tight anyway. I'll see how that goes and can add some later if needed.


The fun part was actually installing an existing colony onto it! I pre-made about four deep frames (2 new and 2 with comb). I placed the new hive where the current one is and I shook as many bees into the new hive as possible, hopefully getting the queen. I brushed the bees off 8 medium frames of brood, walked 50 feet away, and mounted these frames on a top bar. I then returned the brood to the new horizontal hive. Of course, the bees were excited, but after about an hour everything was back to normal and they were in and out of the new entrance going about their business. I'll check on them in a week or so to make sure there's a laying queen.

Thoughts and comments welcome!

Mike


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

habattack said:


> This thread was very helpful to me, so I thought that I'd post this weekend's project.


Thanks for sharing!
Great project.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Thanks for sharing!
> Great project.


My thoughts the same.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

habattack said:


> This thread was very helpful to me, so I thought that I'd post this weekend's project. I built a horizontal hive using three medium hive bodies, very similar to previous posts, although with some alterations.
> A few years ago, I built some medium hive bodies using 2"x8" lumber (actual thickness 1 1/2") with the purpose of providing better insulation. Of course, these are heavier so I use them only for brood boxes, and super with standard medium boxes. So I used three of these thick boxes to build my horizontal hive.
> 
> 1. I stacked & glued three boxes, and used 3/8" plywood as a floor. I insulated the side walls with 1/2" foam and covered it with 1/8" plywood.
> ...


How do the bees like it now?


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## habattack (May 16, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> How do the bees like it now?


The bees really took to the horizontal hive. I added two medium supers and a QE and harvested about 120lbs of honey.
The hive did have excessive bearding over the summer, i.e. on hot days the bees almost covered the front of the hive. But they were able to self-regulate the hive inside temperature. I'll see how they overwinter and decide next spring if I should add ventilation. It's interesting to note that there are small cracks around the bottom drawer board (on bottom opposite side of the entrance) and the bees have filled in these cracks, so one could argue that they don't want any other air intake.
I was in the hive this afternoon removing the apivar strips, and it's packed with honey and bees. I could probably harvest some honey this September.


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