# Pollen Sub Formulations - Input?



## JSL

Outdoor bee work is winding down, so now it is time to get back to pollen sub...

In talking with beekeepers, there seems to be a couple of primary parameters that are important. I am not sure how to rank the following, but price, consumption rate, and protein content seem to be towards the top of the list, so that is what I am focusing on. Below are a couple of formulations I have been working with. They are pretty similar, but one has a higher protein content than the other. Sugar is a great feeding stimulant, so the formula with the lower protein content has more sugar. It all depends on what is more important to the bees and the beekeeper at the time.

I would appreciate any input, and if you like, mix some up and let me know what you think?

*Ingredient *
Sugar 33.0 pounds
Water 27.0 pounds
Brewers Yeast	18.0 pounds 
Soy Flour 18.0 pounds 
Corn Oil 2.5 pounds
Latshaw Pre Mix 1.5 pounds
Total 100 Pounds of Patties
As Fed % Protein	Approx. = 17.5%


*Ingredient *
Sugar 37.0 pounds
Water 27.0 pounds
Brewers Yeast	16.0 pounds 
Soy Flour 16.0 pounds 
Corn Oil 2.5 pounds
Latshaw Pre Mix 1.5 pounds
Total 100 Pounds of Patties
As Fed % Protein	Approx. = 15.5%


Thanks,
Joe


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## Keith Jarrett

One question Joe, what are the protein content of the Brewers & Soy flour? and is there any other protein source? The same for your fat profile? is it just the Corn oil for your fats?
Thanks, Keith


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## JSL

Keith,

For the formula listed, the soy flour is 53% protein and the brewers yeast is 45%. They compliment each other well in terms of supplying a good protein source, but have some issues in terms of vitamins and minerals. The corn oil is one of the best sources for supplying the essential fatty acids and is readily available to beekeepers. Most essential fatty acid requirements for animal diets are satisfied by using approximately 1.75-2.5% oil. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe your diet uses a higher fat content. I think higher fat contents also helps with patty texture and consistency. 

Joe


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## Keith Jarrett

Joe, if I'm reading you right the fat profile would be 1.75-2.5% is this correct ?


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## JSL

Keith,

Yes, that is an approximate range for diets. The formula I listed calls for 2.5 pounds which equals 2.5% when mixing the 100 pound batch of patties. Again this covers nutritional requirements, but some beekeepers use a higher percentage to get a soft patty consistency.

Joe


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## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> Again this covers nutritional requirements,Joe


Joe, I respectfully disagree.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
Keith


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## rainesridgefarm

There is some fat content in both the soy and the yeast does that add to the equation. I have always used coconut and olive oil in my patties. I also add some corn gluten to my mix to add to the protein profile. But when i mix mine I add hfcs with sucrose to give them three sugar types.


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## LT

Can anyone comment on the proper way to mix and package the patties? Thanks


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## 67630

Me too. 8% fat required


Keith Jarrett said:


> Joe, I respectfully disagree.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
> Keith


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## squarepeg

Keith Jarrett said:


> Joe, I respectfully disagree.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
> Keith


please elaborate if you can do so without releasing any sensitive trade secret. not everybody is able to buy your product keith. please, help us if you can. the commercial guys don't have time to make their own anyway!


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## squarepeg

joe, it sounds like you researched the diet info. are you comfortable with your sources?


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## JSL

Keith and Michael,
No hard feelings… Would you be willing to share why it is that you disagree?

I am comfortable with the oil content. Some pollens have more, some less. There is a collection of research that looks at the nutritional quality/value of all kinds of fats and oils. Canola and Coconut oil are popular in the media in terms of being “healthy”, but in terms of nutritional value and cost there are better options.

Soy and Yeast do not have a lot of oil. Corn gluten and any of the other isolates are good sources of protein too, but keep in mind that to get the high protein content, many of the other nutrients are removed during the processing of the product. It is important to look at the entire picture.

What does it mean to add to the protein profile? Is there an ideal target you are working towards and do you take into account the protein content of the ingredients that are being used? 

There are a couple of simple things when mixing patties. Start with fresh ingredients. Store ingredients and patties properly. Cold temperatures are better at preserving the nutritional value of ingredients and patties. I do not understand why beekeepers store ingredients or patties in a hot warehouse for extended periods of time. It just reduces the nutritional value!

Joe


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## squarepeg

joe, i am interested in this, can you list some resources that discuss bee feed? it may be hard for those with a commercial interest to discuss it openly here.


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## JSL

Squarepeg,
A quick Google search for pollen composition will bring up some articles, but most are on specific species. We ran our analyses on composite pollen samples to get an “average” fat content as that is what the bees are eating. Fat Bees, Skinny Bees does a nice job summarizing research on pollen composition. I think there estimates for fat content are higher, maybe in the 4-8% range for artificial diets, but they specifically state the composition requirements for essential fatty acids. We add oil or fat to get the essential fatty acids. Not all oils have the same levels or ratios of essential fatty acids. Corn and soy oil are some of the better oils in terms of providing the essential fatty acids.

As a fun aside, look at some animal feed tags to see what their fat contents are. Most will say Min. Fat …, which means the fat content is pretty close. Show feeds tend to have higher fat contents as exhibitors like the finish it puts on the animal or the shine on the coat. Or, what is the recommend daily requirement in humans? It is interesting how similar the requirement is across so many animal species.

I listed 2.5% corn oil, and the soy and yeast will add approximately another 0.5% to the diet, so you are up to approximately 3.0% for the dietary fat content.


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## squarepeg

in the human eye, the protein pigments diminish with age. turns out it you can reverse this loss, (and the loss of vision that goes with it),by eating those protein pigments. but, you have to have the right amount of omega 3 fatty acids to metabolize the protein pigments, or you loss the benefit of taking them.

sounds like you are right on the money.


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## rainesridgefarm

I use all three protiens in my mix brewers yeast, soy and corn gluten. I feel there is not enough lysin in just yeast and soy. I know my oils are more expensive and have used both corn and canola oils. look at the profiles of them and you do get a better fat with what i use. it may be overkill but since my wife is a soapmaker and we get both these oils in 15gal pails the cost is not to much higher.


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## 67630

ABJ Aug 2010 page 776 3.1 sterols and lipids


JSL said:


> Keith and Michael,
> No hard feelings… Would you be willing to share why it is that you disagree?
> 
> I am comfortable with the oil content. Some pollens have more, some less. There is a collection of research that looks at the nutritional quality/value of all kinds of fats and oils. Canola and Coconut oil are popular in the media in terms of being “healthy”, but in terms of nutritional value and cost there are better options.
> 
> Soy and Yeast do not have a lot of oil. Corn gluten and any of the other isolates are good sources of protein too, but keep in mind that to get the high protein content, many of the other nutrients are removed during the processing of the product. It is important to look at the entire picture.
> 
> What does it mean to add to the protein profile? Is there an ideal target you are working towards and do you take into account the protein content of the ingredients that are being used?
> 
> There are a couple of simple things when mixing patties. Start with fresh ingredients. Store ingredients and patties properly. Cold temperatures are better at preserving the nutritional value of ingredients and patties. I do not understand why beekeepers store ingredients or patties in a hot warehouse for extended periods of time. It just reduces the nutritional value!
> 
> Joe


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## JSL

Michael-bees,

Yes, I remember Zachary’s article. This is not new research, but has been published before 2010. It is a blanket recommendation as not all oils are the same. Insects do need fats/oils in their diet for the essential fatty acids used to drive metabolic pathways. The nutritional requirement for them may be different than the perceived requirement, as fats/oils often taste “good”. 

Joe


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## squarepeg

joe, i wish i could help more, but i've no expertise in this at all. how are you establishing that you have the correct de groot amounts of amino acids?


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## JSL

Squarepeg

DeGroot’s work dates back a little ways. The analytical techniques used back then give different results than current techniques. To get current numbers, we analyzed composite pollen samples to establish amino acid levels. Amino acid levels are relatively easy to provide in a diet, and are seldom the limiting factor in bee diets. 

Joe


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## squarepeg

interesting joe. for some reason i was of the understanding that they were critical, and in the correct amounts, because their metabolism needed the proper cascading?

how do you understand it?


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## squarepeg

oops. just visited your website, looks like i should address you as dr. joe. my apologies.


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## squarepeg

can i call you joe? 

this is off topic for this thread, but i see that you have a background in bee genetics.

i raised the point on another thread that it would be statistically unlikey for two individual bees in a given colony to have the exact same genotype. another poster disagreed.

can you help us settle this?

assume a colony of 60,000 bees, and the queen has mated with 15 drones.

thanks!


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## JSL

Squarepeg,

Joe is fine, I am pretty informal. 

DeGroot specified specific ratios for optimal efficiency. I agree with that, but keep in mind that when dealing with biological systems, things change. Perhaps another way of looking at it is the system is only as efficient as the limiting ingredient. From a nutritional standpoint, there are many nutrients, not just amino acids. That is why I say amino acids are pretty easy and cheap to supply, but vitamins, minerals, and essential fatty acids are just as important at allowing the metabolic pathways to function properly. Unfortunately, I think a lot of diets do not take this into consideration and focus on just a handful of nutrients, when the picture is much bigger. 

In talking with beekeepers, they see the sub formula that I posted and say it is too simple, it can’t be that simple. It can be for most of it, but there is that 1.5% of the premix that balances out approximately 30 vitamins and minerals for the rest of the diet. It seems like such a small amount, but is really important to allow all of the pathways to function properly.

I think your side discussion is pretty easy to clarify. You are correct. We can use Single Drone Inseminations to produce colonies of “Super Sisters” for research. This means workers share 75% percent of the genetic material in common, which is pretty extreme. When you consider the other 25% of the genetic makeup and how much that can vary due to recombination, etc., It is highly unlikely that two workers would ever be genetically identical.

Joe


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## squarepeg

excellent and informative reply there joe. thanks!

i'll need to get the particulars off of your website, but are you saying that you're a making a premix available that can be added to common ingredients to come up with a balanced feeding supplement?


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## squarepeg

website says 'yes'. i feel kinda of stupid for not checking it out first joe. for some reason i assumed you were a hobbiest like me trying to come up with a plan. duh...


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## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> DeGroot specified specific ratios for optimal efficiency. I agree with that, but keep in mind that when dealing with biological systems, things change.


I'm a little slow here, what biological systems have changed since Degroot? Am I reading this right?


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## LSPender

The biological system no, the outside environment, yes! or in other words , their are additional things in our environment since DeGroot wrote. These things are having an impact on the bees.


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## JSL

Keith and Larry,

So much has changed since DeGroot’s initial work published back in the 50’s yet his numbers are still routinely cited today. Today’s analytical processes yield different results. It has been a while since I read DeGroot’s work, but I believe he looked primarily at amino acid ratios and did not take into account the changing vitamin and mineral levels, which would have had a great influence on the benefit of specific ratios. 

In addition, animal nutrition in general has come a long way in the past 60 years. Diets are far more complete as we build our knowledge base. Think back to the bees and even livestock 60 years ago, which was before my time.  I think the bees and even livestock back then would have benefitted from the advances in nutrition we have today. Take that one step further and look at how the bees have changed, genetically to meet the demands and management styles we have today. Does anyone still keep bees the way they did 60 years ago? How much pollen sub was fed 60 years ago, and why was it fed back then?

The fields of genetics and nutrition have changed the beekeeping landscape a great deal and try to keep pace with each other. Bigger and more productive colonies under greater stress (from all angles, including beekeepers) require properly formulated diets. 

Joe


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## Keith Jarrett

Keith Jarrett said:


> I'm a little slow here, what biological systems have changed since Degroot? Am I reading this right?


Joe, your post #24, you state biological systems have changed can you explaine this ?

Larry, agreeded.


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## jim lyon

Don't leave us hanging Joe. What's your opinion on hive nutrition as it relates to DeGroot's original numbers? Adequate? Do we need to do more? Or would that just be throwing money away.


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## Ramona

Environmental changes for bees could include:

Less access to pollen in general as open space is either developed or gone to woods (we see thjs here in New England)

Attempts to eradicate invasive species that pollinators depend on - not clear if those in favor of eradication understand the role that these plants play for the pollinators (we see this here with purple loosestrife and japanese knotweed)

Less diversity in varieties of pollen when bees are limited to monocultures ( pollen nutrition varies)

Less ability to access nutrition from pollen if pollen has been exposed to fungicides (fungicides can impact the fermentation of pollen into beebread - proper fermentation both creates and releases nutrients necessary for proper larval development)

Bees have co-evolved over millions of years with flowers and the microbes that support both the bees and the plants. Biological systems are flexible or they meet their demise. How flexible is where things get interesting.

Ramona


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## JSL

Ramona,

Very well stated! My advising professor made it very clear that an experiment involving a biological system must be clearly defined as systems change and are subject to a wide range of variables and influences. Even our best efforts as researchers to limit the number variables and draw conclusions can be challenging. Does anything ever stand still?

Jim,

I think DeGroot’s finding are sound within the context of his research. However, I think we need to go beyond that body of research. An amino acid assay is relatively inexpensive and easy to run, but is only a very small portion of any diet. The point I would like to make is that any nutrient in a diet can be limiting. Supplying the amino acids is fairly simple and inexpensive. I think beekeepers do a good job with regard to protein content, especially by using multiple protein sources. However, the vitamins and minerals needed to drive the metabolic pathways that process the protein sources have been largely overlooked. Perhaps it is because of the time and expense involved to run the assays and feeding trials. Perhaps it is also difficult to think in parts per million (PPM) for a feed ingredient. Although a nutrient is required in such a small amount, it can greatly influence the efficacy of a diet, especially if the nutrient that is lacking is at the beginning of a long cascading pathway.

Interestingly enough, we can actually use lower protein content s and see very good results from a diet provided we balance out all of the nutrients which allows the bees to efficiently utilize the diet they are provided.

Joe


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## jim lyon

Thanks for the reply Joe. I guess, in the final analysis, the question of whether bees are getting the proper nutrition is a simple question with a complex answer. Barring any research showing that too much of a good thing can be bad, perhaps then one should err on the side of too much nutrition as opposed to too little?


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## JSL

Jim,

The Goldilocks and the three bears approach of just right is best. Too much or too little of a good thing can be bad. I think most of us are familiar with the idea of not having enough of something, but there is a growing area of nutritional research that demonstrates the pitfalls of how too much of something can be bad too. I think this is an interesting concept. The idea of ingesting way too much of something and seeing an immediate response is easy to conceptualize, but how the slow, prolonged ingestion of something over a long period of time is harder to conceptualize and quantify.

Then there is the economics of it all. Why pay for something that is not effectively utilized? Other animal industries will attempt to scrape out 1/10 of a percent in increased efficiency from a dietary additive, but I do not see this in beekeeping. 

Joe


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## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> Other animal industries will attempt to scrape out 1/10 of a percent in increased efficiency from a dietary additive, but I do not see this in beekeeping.


Here at Nutra Bee we have had four of my dads roomates from (UC DAVIS) that have majored in biology, they call it there after work study.lol 
We have programs that you inter the "CA" of each product with it's price per pound then on the other side you have the profile that you are trying to achive, hit the buttom and there you go. 

I just have a much different outlook than Joe has. We have been feeding & making sub for over twenty years, we also have a lenthly track record with our own three thousands hives & countless others that prove to us that we are on the right track. What I saw in Joe's first post made my head spin. 
I have said enough, good luck to all.
Keith


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## Mbeck

I guess the take away is balanced nutrition. Google as I may I found little information on conclusive studies outlining nutritional needs of Bees as it relates to vitamins,minerals and fats.
If these component are needed to efficiently utilize protein, I would suppose that the best sub would have the target amounts and the balance would be sugar + attractant to get them to take it as fast as possible? Is that a flawed conclusion or over simplistic? 

Performance would be regionally depend. Bees here in Florida might not need all the nutrients but would have to ingest them to get to what they required getting too much of some?

Could it be that some colonies would benifit from added nutrients excluding protein in poor pollen quality or monocutural pollen environments ?


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## JSL

Keith brings up an interesting point. Are biologists necessarily nutritionists? 

Computer feed formulation models have been around for a long time. I remember when I was a kid and my Dad’s department purchased their first computer specifically designed for feed formulation. That was almost 30 years ago. It was bigger than a chest freezer and all it would do is calculate feed formulations. As Keith said you could type in the nutritional profile that was desired specify a cost parameter, if you like and wait for the print out to go mix your feed. The challenge is specifying the desired nutritional profile. The computer can calculate an ingredients list, but it cannot determine the most desirable or optimal formula, that is still up to the research nutritionist. 

Joe


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## squarepeg

i noticed that the feeding of protein patties is being done in a big way by the commercial folks, and it is being done in the fall. my guess is for bigger hives going into to winter, resulting in bigger hives for: spring pollination contracts, bees for sale, honey for sale ect.

and it seems to be especially useful to folks who live in an area with little to no natural fall forage.

sorry if i'm getting away from the posted topic again, but my questions are:

is there any advantage to feeding protein patties if i have plenty of natural forage in the fall?

will feeding protein patties in the fall stimulate brood production above what it would be otherwise, at a time when brood rearing is being throttled back for winter?

does feeding cause a decrease in the colonies ability to deal with pests and pathogens as compared to a diet of exclusively natural forage?

i can see how i could help a colony in late winter/early spring 'catch up' if they were weak and low on stores at that time of year, but i'm not sure about the above.

many thanks.


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## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> The computer can calculate an ingredients list, but it cannot determine the most desirable or optimal formula, that is still up to the research nutritionist. Joe


Computer only gets you close, it take years, in our case we've been at it over twenty years to get where we are today. Jeff Peddis of the usda sampled one of our keeper bees for brood production, he was amazed at the difference of "cm" of brood from nutra bee sub compared to the others. It take alot of field work, in many cases years of it.


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## Roland

JSL asked:

Does anyone still keep bees the way they did 60 years ago?

Yes, Same equipment, same stools, same methods(with some modifications), but different truck, and bee blower 50 years ago.. We are not sure everything is the best possible, but have not seen any positive effect in those hives that pollen substitute was added.it is possible we have mis-observed any benefits.

We are unique in that we do not migrate, and have considerable area of untilable land, being in the vicinity of terminal moraines(edge of glacial extant).

Crazy Roland


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## JSL

Mbeck,

I agree, balance is the key. I was thinking about Jim’s question yesterday about my opinion on DeGroot’s amino acid ratios. We analyze composite pollen samples to pull the numbers we attempt to target. Interestingly, the distribution of amino acids in composite samples is usually pretty close to the ratios DeGroot recommended.

I think that is very probable that bees would benefit from other nutrients in monoculture environments. Although it can be challenging to pinpoint which one’s.

Squarepeg,

I am not certain there is an advantage to feeding patties if you have an abundance of pollen. Perhaps it all depends on what you want from your bees. I think the studies have shown feeding can have a stimulatory effect. Again, whether that is good or bad, or even necessary depends on what you need for your situation. Your last question I am speculating on… I would think a good supplement would only help bees in terms of providing proper nutrition to help deal with pests and pathogens, but the catch may be increased brood production and how it relates to Varroa levels.

Roland,

I envy you! Sometimes I think we as beekeepers have made our lives and our bee’s lives more difficult by all of the changes we have implemented over the years. I thoroughly enjoy being out in the field working bees and often wonder what it would be like to go back in time. The closest I came to such an opportunity was working bees Hawaii, pre Varroa and hive beetles. It was like the days before we had Varroa here, but just a little better!

Joe


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## sjvbee

How many are adding probiotics to their 
Sub


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## Roland

Joe - don't envy, the old ways are alot more work.

On second thought, I believe I need to set up some true tests and accurately measure the effect of adding pollen supplement. We may indeed be missing out on benefits.

crazy Roland


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## Keith Jarrett

sjvbee said:


> How many are adding probiotics to their
> Sub


sjvbee, We do have a micro-flora builder in our sub which feeds the gut flora.


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## TWall

Joe, Keith or anyone else,

What impact does palatability play into pollen sub mix? Might it be that while a higher fat/oil content is not necessarily needed by the bees. But, they will eat more of one that does have a higher oil content?

Tom


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## JSL

Tom,

That is my dilemma. I see what I think is an adequate oil content, but also see the opportunity to improve palatability of the patty. Oil helps to make for a softer more pliable patty, which I think certainly improves consumption. For me, it becomes a bit more murky when trying to determine the upper limit of oil in a patty. We know oil improves consumption and quality to a point, but so does sugar. There is only 100 percent of a patty to work with. Getting most of the ingredients roughed in is fairly manageable, but it’s the last few percentage points that seem to take the most work. I am not certain there is a one size fits all, so it becomes, what size fits most.

Joe


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## Keith Jarrett

TWall said:


> Might it be that while a higher fat/oil content is not necessarily needed by the bees.


TWall, "Might" as you say a higher fat content is not necessarily needed, what percent is needed ?


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## TWall

Keith,

I don't know.

Tom


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## Keith Jarrett

TWall, this maybe helpfull.
A reminder about the addition of oils in a pollen substitute.

http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documen...Article10.html
3. Other Nutrition

3.1. Sterols and Lipids

A sterol, 24-methylene cholesterol, is common in pollen and is the major sterol source for honey bees. Nearly all insects need to obtain sterol from their diet because of their inability to synthesize them directly. Sterol is the precursor for important hormones such as molting hormone, which regulates growth because it is required at the time of each molt. It is not clear what other lipids are required by honey bees, but most likely normal consumption of pollen provides for all the lipid requirements. Pollen with low fat content is less likely to be consumed by honey bees, but can be made more attractive to bees with the addition of lipids. The total lipid concentration within a pollen supplement is recommended to be 5%–8%.


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## Ramona

From what I know about 24-methylene cholesterol, it is either produced or greatly enhanced through the pollen fermentation process within the first hour or so after the bee collects and inoculates the pollen with honey stomach fluids. The brood cannot develop without the 24-meth c. 

It is my understanding that the bees cannot get the 24-methylene cholesterol anywhere else in their diet so need at least some real pollen. The nurse bees can pull nutrients from their bodies for 2-3 brood cycles but in the absence of at least some real pollen brood cannot be raised after these 2-3 generations.

Ramona



Keith Jarrett said:


> TWall, this maybe helpfull.
> A reminder about the addition of oils in a pollen substitute.
> 
> http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documen...Article10.html
> 3. Other Nutrition
> 
> 3.1. Sterols and Lipids
> 
> A sterol, 24-methylene cholesterol, is common in pollen and is the major sterol source for honey bees. Nearly all insects need to obtain sterol from their diet because of their inability to synthesize them directly. Sterol is the precursor for important hormones such as molting hormone, which regulates growth because it is required at the time of each molt. It is not clear what other lipids are required by honey bees, but most likely normal consumption of pollen provides for all the lipid requirements. Pollen with low fat content is less likely to be consumed by honey bees, but can be made more attractive to bees with the addition of lipids. The total lipid concentration within a pollen supplement is recommended to be 5%–8%.


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## Keith Jarrett

Ramona, we do know that natural pollen starts to break down after the first hour without lactic acid prosses, but, do we know that pollen substitutes act in the same way? Some have told me when the bees eat the sub the fermention process with the somach fluids will happen at that time. There are many conflicting veiws among the research commuity. Which came first the chicken or the egg.


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## Ramona

Who told you these things and on what are they basing their comments?




Keith Jarrett said:


> Ramona, we do know that natural pollen starts to break down after the first hour without lactic acid prosses, but, do we know that pollen substitutes act in the same way? Some have told me when the bees eat the sub the fermention process with the somach fluids will happen at that time. There are many conflicting veiws among the research commuity. Which came first the chicken or the egg.


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## Keith Jarrett

Who did I hear this info from.... If I mention there names I would image 90% of the board would recognize.


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## Ramona

.....?????



Keith Jarrett said:


> Who did I hear this info from.... If I mention there names I would image 90% of the board would recognize.


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## BEES4U

11/27/2012

A sterol, 24-methylene cholesterol, one of my favorites.
It has a nice ring to it and it goes with bacon quite well!


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## JSL

Ramona,

I do not have a clear picture of 24-methylene cholesterol, or cholesterol usage in bees. The literature offers conflicting views on whether or not bees can synthesize cholesterol from plant based sterols. Your statement about brood needing cholesterol for development is in line with other animal species as most embryonic stages are unable to synthesize cholesterol, but quickly gain the ability after birth.

It used to be stated that plants did not produce cholesterol, but some newer research suggests that they do, just in very small amounts.

Joe


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## Ramona

Don't have access to my bee/microbe files today but if I recall correctly the 24-methylene cholesterol is connected to a specific fungus that is associated with pollen.

Ramona

QUOTE=JSL;871647]Ramona,

I do not have a clear picture of 24-methylene cholesterol, or cholesterol usage in bees. The literature offers conflicting views on whether or not bees can synthesize cholesterol from plant based sterols. Your statement about brood needing cholesterol for development is in line with other animal species as most embryonic stages are unable to synthesize cholesterol, but quickly gain the ability after birth.

It used to be stated that plants did not produce cholesterol, but some newer research suggests that they do, just in very small amounts.

Joe[/QUOTE]


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## squarepeg

i agree that diet and nutrition is one of the most fundamental aspects of bee husbandry.

so much so, that i decided this year to forsake the honey crop, by only taking what i could, so as to not have to feed any syrup.

i did have two occasions where short-term emergency feeding was necessary.

last fall, i fed syrup after late a harvest. and i must admit, last year's fall colonies had larger clusters and heavier stores.

i.e. this year's clusters are much smaller, and the stores are lighter.

i wonder if letting the bees determine cluster strength based on the natural flow results in a more optimal cluster size?

i also wonder if not having the extra stores in late winter will cause a smaller build-up in advance of our main flow next spring?

it might make sense from a production standpoint, to supplement in the fall, just after the natural forage plays out. maybe that would leave more stores for spring build up.

it's a no brainer for the commercial operation. that's what you want.

does it make sense for someone not necessarily trying to max out #'s of honey per hive? or extra bees for pollination or sale?


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## davidsbees

If mites were to go away tomorrow nutrition is still the biggest challenge we have in central CA. Should have started feeding a protein supplement in early june, by the time I saw that they were stressed it was month to late. Some times it take a month or more to get to all the yards. I feed 1.5 lbs on the top super if the bees don't eat it it's not worth feeding. ( you can take that either way) bad idea to break cluster in the winter IMO.

























This is my mix
25 gal syrup
80 lbs Ladshaw bee feed
50 lbs toasted soy flour (ADM)
50 lbs nutritional yeast (LaSaf)
25 lbs sugar
1 lbs ladshaw v&m mix
100 g enzyme mix (Canadian Bio)
100 g probiotic mix 
1 gal corn oil
1 gal canola oil
1 gal coconut oil
6 oz lemongrass (lebermuth)
6 oz spearmint "
6 oz wintergreen "
mix subject to change


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## rainesridgefarm

Thank you for sharing your mix. It is nice to have people on this forum to share a working recipe. A rising tide raises all ships.


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## RAK

Joe, Your missing the eggs and oil. Can't go without those. You ask Keith,... He'll tell ya to add in that cheese powder. 

Seriously though... the yeast and soy doesn't do the best job when it comes to raisin many bees when no pollen available. So far my formula has been a monster but its not just sugar, soy and yeast. Your missing those fatty's.


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## JSL

RAK,

The formulation I listed is more than soy, yeast and sugar, with a little oil. The vitamin and mineral premix we have formulated is what makes the recipe simple yet functional. Vitamins and minerals in the proper amount and ratios are what make the rest of the diet biologically available for digestion and utilization. The idea of using a scientifically formulated vitamin and mineral premix or supplement developed specifically for bees appears to be a novel if not somewhat foreign concept to many beekeepers. We try and make it look simple, but in fact, there is a lot of testing, calculations and analysis that goes into correctly balancing approximately 30 vitamins and minerals that go into the supplement and premix. It’s not magic, but rather common practice in production agriculture.

I realize you and others may argue that higher fat content is necessary, and on some levels I agree. Fat is tasty, and can contribute to the texture of the patty. But in the long run an overall balanced diet is the objective. Remember Halloween as a kid? All that candy was great for a little while, but what happened if you ate too much candy over an extended period of time?

Some tell me they use eggs for the fat content. Eggs also provide a source of cholesterol. I am just not certain on the cholesterol requirement. There is sound research on both sides of the fence. Bees do need cholesterol, that much appears to be true. Where or how they get it is the question. Plant based materials do provide some precursors to cholesterol molecules that most animals can utilize. There is also some more recent research that suggests plant materials contain small amounts of cholesterol molecules…

Have enjoyed this thread!
Joe


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## Daniel Y

Joe, I will say I will take your information against un supported challenges any day. At least I can start mixing your recipe. The only reason I can see for the challenge is to cast false doubt in the minds of others. A commercial person legitimately guarding secrets would never have spoken up at all.

I am interested in Latshaw in general. I found enough info searching II that it peeked my interest. but everything I have found is fairly vague and unsupported. For example, head of a huge breeding cooperation but I did not find anything about the results of that program. Also on my list for breeder queens. But at a $2000 min purchase I want to see a lot more about what these bees are like.

I also saw this recipe in my search but nothing to support it.

I would appreciate any leads even through PM into digging deeper. Just to make up my own mind as to the quality and progress of your work.

I didn't realize you where right here on the same playground.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Joe, I am also one of those who agree with _rainesridgefarm_, and thank you for posting this informative thread. I am not currently in a position to make a serious judgement as _who _has the best formula, but without your posting, I would be even further in the dark! :applause: And I learned a lot reviewing your website.


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## JSL

Graham,

Thanks, this has been a fun one!

Daniel,

I think your assessment is fair. I come from a research background and try to apply it to beekeeping, but consider myself to be a beekeeper at heart. Most of my time is spent in the field working bees or working with other beekeepers. I try to share as much information as possible with beekeepers and enjoy learning from other beekeepers! In beekeeping there are many opinions and approaches. Therefore, I share my opinions and approaches and encourage beekeepers to give it a try. The stock I produce or the nutrition work we do is not to everyone’s liking. There are many diverse operations around this country and they have developed systems that work for them. When approached by other beekeepers I try to help in any way I can or in many cases work to find the answers I simply do not know. 

RAK,

To be fair, I do use diets with higher oil contents, up around 5%, but for the reasons I stated earlier. If I am looking at faster consumption or a specific texture, oil will certainly help me do that.

Joe


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## RAK

Joe, I have noticed the bees eat the fatter sub faster and it is much easier to work with. easier to clean out the mixer and doesn't stick to everything. I have never tried your minerals but might have to test them out... 

I bit off topic but what I have tried is your Karnica strain. I cross the daughters of your Karnica queens with Italian mix drones and got some of the best bees. They respond to sub and syrup real well and have large population. Don't swarm as much as other carniolan bees. Whoever needs evidence... look into my hives, guaranteed you will be jealous. :waiting:


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## Keith Jarrett

RAK said:


> Your missing the eggs and oil.


RAK, missing alot more than that. This whole commercial thread is heading that way.


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## RAK

Keith, I'm always missing something. That's exactly why your going to ship me a truckload in August!


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## Daniel Y

How do you keep a home mixed batch moist. I like mega bee that stays soft for days. I made up some other stuff this last year and it dried up rock hard in 24 hours.


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## RAK

large amounts of soy with no oil will typically result in sub that dries up.


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## davidsbees

I posted my sub mix in the spirit of sharing.I forgot to add that I put 4 cups of citric acid. No problem with sub getting hard. No eggs...no cheez...no bacon.......NO BULL! These are aug splits, pic taken today Dec 21 2012, 3+ frames brood.


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## Ian

Davidsbees, you mention probiotic in your sub mix. Did you make your own or buy it?


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## Ian

And is increasing the fat content as simple as increasing the oil content? At what point does the added oil make the patty unpalatable ?

and thanks to Joe and Davidsbees for making their recipes available. Im currently in the process of making a recipe for my own mix. 

fantastic thread guys!!


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## Daniel Y

squarepeg said:


> 1. is there any advantage to feeding protein patties if i have plenty of natural forage in the fall?
> 
> 2. will feeding protein patties in the fall stimulate brood production above what it would be otherwise, at a time when brood rearing is being throttled back for winter?
> 
> 3. does feeding cause a decrease in the colonies ability to deal with pests and pathogens as compared to a diet of exclusively natural forage?
> 
> i can see how i could help a colony in late winter/early spring 'catch up' if they were weak and low on stores at that time of year, but i'm not sure about the above.
> 
> many thanks.


just my observations which are limited to having kept 23 hives. 22 of which I have built up form swarms or queen rearing

1. Yes. in a hive that is building up say from a nuc it allows more energy for building less need to forage. How successful this is is variable I will have two nucs setting side by side. one foraging like mad the next has no bees coming or going but will be found covering the food. This indicates to me there is still something they need that is not found in the food.

2. Not that I have noticed. ti seems to me feed in the fall is stored. I gave my production hives sugar water after I take their honey. It is for them to replenish there stores for winter and that is what it appears to me they do with it. Maybe they just eat it and the honey I see getting stored is actually additional forage. I cannot say with any certainty. I know I feed in an amount that would be consistent with the honey I find.

3. I consider feeding sub par with natural forage. Due to this I assume feeding impacts overall heath in a negative way. even if it is only slightly. negative impact on health equals bees more susceptible. In the end I find that bees less than optimally healthy tend to do better than those that starve.

In the simplest form I see it like this. woudl I rather have my bees sick or dead? Nobody seems to be capable of offering a better range of choices.


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## davidsbees

I buy a enzyme and probiotic product. Currently working with a nutrititionist to formulate a more compleat mix. I use 3 different oil to get a better fatty acid mix also add a precursor to 24 methalchoestral I keep the oil level about 7%.


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