# Anyone go up against their county/city over keeping bees?



## SilentSam (Jul 9, 2011)

Seems my neighbor complained, but our county has nothing for zoning of bees directly. Indirectly they classify them as live stock but they allow "hobbyist" to keep one to two hives. 

With out getting in to the details of my situation yet, who here has had to deal with their local government? How was the process? Did it cost you anything? How did it turn out?

Thanks,

SS


----------



## RAFAEL/PR (Feb 23, 2012)

if your neighbor has dogs and cats complain about them , what goes around come around , and tell your local government the bees are endanger


----------



## SilentSam (Jul 9, 2011)

Ironically the county park a few miles down the road is having a honey bee festival this weekend. 

SS


----------



## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

In my opinion, without knowing the details I might suggest moving them with great ceremony before the situation escalates. After a period of time the neighbors will either mind thier own business or start minding someone's business other than yours. You can then resume minding your own business.

It's a win win they get the drama they craved and you reduce the drama in your life.


----------



## DLMKA (Feb 7, 2012)

I'd move them to defuse the situation. Run an ad on craigslist looking for a place to put them if you don't know anyone with enough property they won't be a bother to anyone. 

I wanted to have a couple hives in my yard but before we even got bees the neighbors were freaking out after seeing a Dadant catalog on the coffee table. Now they know for sure I have bees but they aren't in the yard but are starting to now complain about the location of my compost bins and the "smell". I've devised a solution to both problems. I'll build a 6' privacy fenced area in the middle of the yard about 12X12 that I'll put the compost bins in AND keep a beehive in. I'll just lock the gate and have external access to the compost.


----------



## DLMKA (Feb 7, 2012)

In the meantime, start contacting local officials and other beekeepers and start a campaign to write an acceptable use ordinance for keeping bees, just make sure it isn't too ornerous.


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

Good luck to all. Busy body neighbors suck, and have caused me to have to relocate the community orchard that I was planting in the ROW behind my property. I tried to reason with the governing authority that I knowingly planted them on public property, expecting people to freely pick fruit as they wished, simply because I enjoy gardening. They argued that the ROW behind my house is supposed to be a "natural area" meaning it is supposed to be allowed to grow up in weeds and briers, rather than mowed and neat like all of my neighbors and I currently keep it. I was told that if I did not relocate the trees they would be ripped out, and the expense billed to me. What is wrong with society, where good intentions are now a punishable offense? At least in my case my immediate neighbors are on my side, and willing to go to battle if needed. And they love free honey! I actually don't know if my neighbors to the south know if I have the bees, but I sure hope they don't mind. Bees are allowed in my neighborhood, I have been told, but to what extent I don't know. I don't think the wife will ever let me have any more than a few hives anyway.

Just build a high fence and then find an article that mentions how bees will fly up and over an obstacle, and stay overhead until they reach their destination. I've watched mine, and within 20' of the hive they are over 10' up already.


----------



## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

If your neighbors are not crazy, maybe try explaining the major benifits of having Bees around. Rather than the cons (if any) of having bees around, give him a jar of honey to soften the blow : ) even if it isn't your honey, you can probably get some from another beek in your area and rebottle it or something. People overreact when they don't understand things.

hope this helped some
and good luck !

Ben


----------



## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

It doesn't sound like you need to go up against the county, you just need to go up against your neighbors.

I'd escalate the situation as far as possible. These busybody type people are nothing but bullies and are usually used to getting their way the first time they start to complain. Push back with maximum force and they usually crumble. Try to compromise with them and they'll make your life hell. If its not bees it will be something else, they will never give up until your destroyed. 

You have to go on the attack.

Let them know that if they screw up your beekeeping that you will ruin everything they love. They complain about your bees? Anytime you see their cat or dog off their property call animal control. Radio too loud? call the cops. Find out what religion they are and put up the biggest symbol of whatever they hate/fear that you can. Make it clear that they can either leave you alone or spend the rest of their lives watching their back. Jack up the tension level so high that the feel like their world could come to an end at any minute. People under that much tension start making mistakes, they lose their jobs, wreck their cars, they begin to fall apart. 

Needless to say, your own behavior has to be impeccable in regards to the law, but usually you'll find that you can make their lives miserable without every stepping over the line. Most people have very little tolerance for constant, unremitting hate(even if you don't hate them the goal is to make them feel that way)

The ultimate goal is to use legal forms of intimidation to push them into illegal retribution. Make them cross the line and then hammer them.

Machiavelli is often miss quoted as saying it is better to be feared than loved. What he really said is that its best to have both but if you can only have one its better to be feared than ignored. 

Yes, all my neighbors hate me. They keep their blinds closed and their children literally run and hide when I drive past their house. I haven't talked to any of them in three years but neither have they tried to complain about anything in those three years. They stick to their business and I get to stick to mine. It was totally worth it.


----------



## Kristen beck (May 1, 2012)

We have 3 hives in our back yard. Our neighbors to the North know and think it's awesome. The neighbor to the west knows, she buys our honey. The south neighbors i could care less, in fact, i would love for her to say something to me about it because i would then discuss her yippy little dog. The east neighbors, across the alley, play horrible rap music so i hope my bees sting them frankly. The majority of our hives are in the country, these are ones that were caught as swarms or taken out of trees and we are just watching them to make sure they are healthy before placing them in our "country" yards or taking them to pollinate pumpkins over the border. I think it's sad that DLMKA has to put a privacy fence up for freaking compost. Tell them to kiss your ass. next time one of their kids makes too much noise, call and complain. Seriously what is this world coming to that you cannot even have an F&*[email protected]*g compost bin for your garden! It's times like these you wish the bees were africanized...Sick'em girls!


----------



## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

I tend to agree with arindel's post above.Give them a double dose of their own medicine.Fortunately,I live in the country and my neighbors like the free honey.We had a neighbor about a quarter mile away whose yard was completely trash.His neighbors complained to the county and he was required to put up a privacy fence.He painted the fence a horrible pink and put purple polka dots on it.Awful doesn't do it justice.That's the kind of double dose of their own medicine I'm talking about.Think the problem through and see what the neighbors(legal) "worst case" would be. And before anyone asks,no,I am not in favor of trashy yards.Just telling that story to illustrate the point.


----------



## buzz abbott (Mar 6, 2012)

I had hives with feral bees in them for a few years before the city legalized beekeeping. I was not beekeeping at the time just had the equipment and the bees moved in. Last year about this time the city code enforcement people came by and asked if the bees were registered, and told me I had to get them registered. Went to the animal control people (tasked by the city fathers and mothers) and told them code enforcement told me to register the bees. The guy at the desk says 'we don't regisiter bees'. Back to the code guy and he said if they don't want to do it then I don't care, but here is a copy of the regs. Back to the AC show them the regs. Different guy that day. He said the council has not given them the procedure yet (7 months after the ord. was passed) and he would get back to me in a few days. He did, came out and made sure I within specs. I had 4 stacks of boxes and the ord only allows 2. My neighbor is an avid garden and was delighted to take two of the colonies, which got me into compliance. Both the code guy and AC guy were very nice.
As a result I am told that I am the first officially registered beek in the city.


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Aerindel said:


> It doesn't sound like you need to go up against the county, you just need to go up against your neighbors.
> 
> I'd escalate the situation as far as possible. These busybody type people are nothing but bullies and are usually used to getting their way the first time they start to complain. Push back with maximum force and they usually crumble. Try to compromise with them and they'll make your life hell. If its not bees it will be something else, they will never give up until your destroyed.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you could use a friend....I've sent you a friend request


----------



## BigGun (Oct 27, 2011)

Our city has an anti bee rule. I have two hives that belong to a friend in my beeyard due to the city threatening to destroy them. There are no houses within 500 feet of them so they were not a problem. The city only complained because someone complained to them. I've got a second friend in the same neighborhood who got his business license pulled due to a complaint about a few tractors in his yard. Can't see them from the street nor from the neighbors houses. They can only be seen from a 50 acre field behind his field. He thinks it's the guy who's camper blocks half the road. Guesses the busybody is afraid one of the trailers bringing in tractors will scratch his camper. Busybodies should be pelted with rotten tomatoes.


----------



## BigGun (Oct 27, 2011)

Your funny. I have a saying about neighbors. Get along well with the neighbors you like but make the ones you don't like think your crazy. People around here will do anything they can to prevent problems with nuts.


----------



## The Evil Chip (May 19, 2012)

Here in Norfolk, we are just now able to exercise our right to Keep and Bear Bees. The ordinance changed in October and lots of folks are getting into it. RKBB is one passion of mine, RKBA is another. In the long term beekeepers in urban areas should start thinking a lot more like the gunnies. 

Q: What would the gunnies do? 

A: They would start with making pointed inquiries about what happened. They would file freedom of information act requests. They would politely but firmly demand to know what in the wide, wide world of sports was going on in this ill gotten nest of depravity and fascism? About then the e-mail deluge would hit. Gunnies would start filling up the e-mail boxes of the city council in question. Then assuming that the city council in question had not yet gotten the hint, said gunnies would show up, en masse, at the next city council meeting for the city that had the temerity to infringe on the rights of their fellow gunnies. 

For some reason city councils don't like lots of gun owners showing up at their meetings and asking pointed questions. I've never understood it. I reckon they wouldn't like a lot of people who like playing with stinging insects to come to their meetings, either.

And don't you hate it when you've got to go to a meeting and can't find a bee sitter?


----------



## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

We spent almost a year getting the laws written to allow bees in Hillsborough County and the State of Florida (over local ordinances).


----------



## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Have you actually talked with the neighbor? They have a justified position rather than just being a bad neighbor. Before you escalate, you should listen to them with an open mind. Put yourself in their place. I know that is not a popular response here, but you are neighbors and it is good to have nice relations with your neighbors. As soon as you start being a bad neighbor, which you will be if you escalate, the situation will simply spiral downward and you will end up with no bees and a poor standing with all your neighbors. You will not be the good guy trying to save nature.

If you can't keep bees at your place, then find somewhere you can. And keep you neighbors, you civility and your sanity.

On another note FLorida just passed a right to farm bill that will not allow any municipality or homeowners association to prohibit honey bee keeping. The Florida state Apiary inspectors will determine what constitutes a nusiance and what does not when it comes to beekeeping.

Good luck with whichever path you take.

jeb


----------



## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

In Ohio a farmer is protected from Local Ordnance with in Township and some communities. Check your states revised codes, you may have laws protecting you as a beekeeper. I am fighting right now township trustees over a zoning issue and I have Ohio Law on my side.


----------



## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> As soon as you start being a bad neighbor, which you will be if you escalate, the situation will simply spiral downward and you will end up with no bees and a poor standing with all your neighbors.


Only if you lose. And if your neighbors somehow got your bees taken away your standing wouldn't matter anyway, its not like you ever feel like having anything to do with them again. From the moment they complain the authorities rather than talk to you they have become opponents and if they succeed at taking something away from you that makes it a vendetta.



> Get along well with the neighbors you like but make the ones you don't like think your crazy.


This was the heart of my strategy against my neighbors. It works really well when you act like a psycho around them and then when they call the cops you act perfectly polite and controlled. There is a huge advantage in being believed to be insane when in fact you are not.



> If your neighbors are not crazy,


Thats always a big 'If' Most people who report other people for what they do on their own land have some kind of mental problem. A reasonable person would just come over and knock on your door and have a conversation about whatever was bothering them and assumeing that you are a reasonable person the situation would probably end up being resolved for both parties.

It true though that its usually good to make one attempt at a reasonable compromise. It will no doubt fail but helps a lot when talking to the cops and makes the other guys look like the bad guys and there is always the slim chance that being simply confronted may be enough to make them drop it. Its a lot harder for most people to tell someone face to face that they don't like what they're doing than to call up some government authority and make a complaint.

How does the saying go? hope for peace, prepare for war?


----------



## SilentSam (Jul 9, 2011)

Seems I touched on a touchy subject. :lookout:

I'll post the whole story with my neighbor on my lunch break. 
There is more to the story with the neighbor. 

Still curious to hear the stories of people running in to their government with zoning or similar issues. 

SS


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

SilentSam said:


> Ironically the county park a few miles down the road is having a honey bee festival this weekend.
> 
> SS


Get some folks together and at the festival have one of the "county fathers" proclaim the honey bee to be the official county insect..."The Henrico Honey Bee" (that is if the county is Henrico  ). Adds a little celebrity status to the humble honey bee and lets the bees rub elbows with the county leaders.  It's good to have friends in high(low?) places. 

Ed


----------



## DLMKA (Feb 7, 2012)

Kristen beck said:


> I think it's sad that DLMKA has to put a privacy fence up for freaking compost. Tell them to kiss your ass. next time one of their kids makes too much noise, call and complain. Seriously what is this world coming to that you cannot even have an F&*[email protected]*g compost bin for your garden! It's times like these you wish the bees were africanized...Sick'em girls!


I don't intend on moving the compost piles because they complained. In fact I have source now for some fresh pig $h!t to heat the pile up a little. I'm going to move it at some point behind a privacy fence so they think they "won" but in all reality the privacy fence will just keep them from seeing the beehives. As it stands I have 5 hives 1.2 miles up the road in an agricultural area so my bees will likely frequent my garden anyway.

I did call their bluff when I brought a backyard flock of chickens home. They kept saying they were going to call and complain but their kids love the chickens and if they complain I can hold it above their heads when the chickens are gone and can tell the kids that the reason the chickens are gone is because THEIR mom and dad didn't want them there. 

I am working on legalizing backyard chicken flocks and the city administrator is interested in becoming a beekeeper so I have him on my side.


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

SilentSam said:


> <snip>
> 
> With out getting in to the details of my situation yet, who here has had to deal with their local government? How was the process? Did it cost you anything? How did it turn out?
> 
> ...


SS, I guess you will give us some more details when you post later? I'm curious about your proximity to this neighbor and the size of yours and the neighbor's property. Are you a 100 feet from them? ...200 feet? ...1/4 mile? ...1/2 mile? Are these .25 acre plots or 10+ acre plots? Proximity makes a BIG difference in things...in the "nuisance factor" of the bees and the neighbor's "complaint validity". Property size (yours) makes a difference in positioning the hives *away* from a mutual property line which *might* help with bee traffic and swarm issues.

If you do end up having to move your bees then do some research and seek out a favorable location for them...if you have the option, don't just settle for "he'll let me put them there" type of place. Look for a good honey making area...clover fields, water availability, maybe *away* from row crop fields (pesticides/chemicals)...find out the predominate honey plants in your areas and find the areas that are rich in these. *Then* start approaching landowners about "renting" you a spot to keep your bees...it only takes a small area and the worst thing the owners can say is no..and the rent could be the pollination service or/and a couple of quarts of honey off of "their land" . You might be surprised that many people are receptive to honey bees. I've had several folks recently make the remark that they wish someone would put a hive close to them/their garden, etc.,. Just some thoughts and it may be a situation where you have to take what you can get....I'd look around, though, if it comes to moving your bees.

Sorry that you've run into the neighbor issue, I hope this works out well for the both of you. 

Best wishes,
Ed


----------



## Bonnie Botkins (Sep 13, 2011)

I'm very interested in how this turns out too. I have a troublesome neighbor too, but the trouble started long before I had my bees here. It started because she decided that my handicapped son was "bad" and she started a campaign against him and myself. My son and I became very close with alot of the other neighbors and they have since come to our defense, she is now afraid to say [email protected]#t about us, as it makes her look like the b---- she is. So I have proceeded to push it...starting with chickens, then bees and now goats. Pssst I'm a 10th of an acre shy of being allowed livestock. But all my supportive neighbors love the cheese, honey and eggs.


----------



## Bees&Wood (May 18, 2011)

SilentSam,
You must be near Rockwood.... And since you are going to post more on the story at lunch, you must have some sort of past history with this neighbor. Two things I can think of that would be relevant: what size area/proximity are we talking, and 2) is anyone is this neighbors household allergic (i'm guessing not or that you dont' know, cause I think you would have stated this before). I think it would be best to try to solve this rationally and nicely if possible, but if that's not within reason, then I agree with some of the more deffensive posts, you should protect yourself and not let them run you over. 

About 2 years ago, a local town here tried to ban all livestock (including bees) from town limits. Luckily, one of the best beeks I know happened to have some hives in town. Not only is he a great beekeeper, he is also a great speaker and educator. He was able to attend the town meetings and shed some positive light on bees and beekeeping. Now, you can have bees in town, but not chickens goats pigs etc. (not sure if they put a hive limit in the ruling). Even luckier for me, I live a couple miles out of town anyway. 

I am interested in learning more about your situation. Best of luck in figuring out your endeavors. Oh and perhaps if you attend Rockwood on Saturday, it may be the positive education experience that's needed in the area to help your situation.


----------



## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

SilentSam, do NOT voluntarily move your bees. Some years back while living inside city limits, for some reason a neighbor took a dislike to me. One day two nice uniformed police officers appeared, with a complaint about my 2 beehives. I took them around the garage, thru the locked 6' tall privacy fence gate, we walked around behind the hives, and watched the bees fly up over the fence. a flow was on, bees were exceptionally active, and we stood there beside the hives talking. I explained that I installed the privacy fence to direct their flight paths upward, away from people. I keep the yard secure from curious children. And since there are stinging insects everywhere, my bees, as they can see, are no problem.

No more incidents with the city or the neighbor. Confront the situation head on, be nice, especially to the city folks. And let your neighbor know you're not going to be run over.
Regards,
Steven


----------



## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Whatever happened to love thy neighbor? 

I see get back at this neighbor, use of bees to get back at bad neighbors. 
I am reminded of the daily devotional i read today and yesterday from Charles Stanely
http://www.intouch.org/magazine/daily-devotional ...Godly response to criticism
http://www.intouch.org/magazine/content/topic/responding_to_accusation_devotional
http://www.intouch.org/magazine/content/topic/how_to_handle_negative_relationships_devotional

Even if one choses to ignore the bible on this matter, and just read the short articles, they give good advice to handle hard relationships.

We can not control how others respond to us, but we can control how we respond. In "kindness and love".
The me monster raises its ugly head when we can not look past our yards and respond in kindness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiUsfEkVRDY&feature=related


End of Soap box


----------



## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

Everyone has annoying neighbors, but the law is the law. So it's tough luck, but before I got mine I did tell the neighbors who had kids and offered to buy them an eppee pen. I'm not, not gonna do it cuz someone tells me I can't but I will work with those who might be negativity impacted by them. That being said if the bees visit the neighbor and the neighbor tries to poison them that's his right too.


----------



## SilentSam (Jul 9, 2011)

The devil is in the details and here they are:

yes I am near Rockwood Park. 
I live in your standard 60s build neighborhood on a .4+ acre lot. 
Its your average working class neighborhood of single family homes. 
We have children on both sides of us but none in out house. 

Neighbor got pegged from the county 3-4 weeks ago for still having her Christmas decorations up and/or in front of her house, as well as having a car in her driveway with out tags. 
She told, me after calling the county, that she told the county "Why are you harassing me? My neighbors have chickens & bees." 

She doesn't doesn't like any insect or critter. No amount of free honey would convince otherwise. 
According to her "now her children can not play in their back yard because of the bees." She has twins, maybe 6 or 7 years old. The presence of my bees has not stopper her children from playing in my yard with my chickens or helping plant the garden & flowers. All with in 20' of my hives. 

Other that myself, no one has been stung by a bee, neighbors included. My bees are gentle. I can run my mower right in front of the hive with out any testy bees.
I have four hives and three just started nucs. two hives & two nucs are in the very back of the yard, farthest from everything. The location fully shaded, likely not the best location for my bees. Two hives and two nucs are out further in the yard and face my garden. they get good sun where they are at. They DO face her yard and are 30-40 feet away from the fence currently. I plan to move them back another 10 feet to the absolute center of the yard. At a distance of 20 feet from my hives, the bees are flying way over head level. if you are standing at out fence between the yards, with out seeing the hives, you would not know they are there. 

Currently there is nothing on the books for Chesterfield county regarding bees. We are NOT zoned for chickens. 

We have eight bantam(the size of pigeons) chickens. They have a coop that we move around the yard. If we are home they get the run of the back yard, otherwise they are confined to their coop & run. The children(both sides) love the chickens. They love to collect the eggs to take home for their families. The chickens ARE NOT a problem with either neighbor. They are seemingly leverage for the issue of the bees. 

Again, yes I know we are in the wrong with the chickens. I have nothing to stand on with regards to the chickens.
We knew that getting in to chickens. We specifically went with bantams because of their size. Being the size of pigeons it lets children of all sizes hold them & pet them. 
What bothers me is that the neighbor has a problem with the bees and is tearing up my wife to lose the chickens.

I'm sure I missed a few points, I'll follow up tonight when I get home. 

SS


----------



## Ricky Bee (Apr 16, 2011)

Nosy, meddling, unenlightened, naive and belligerent neighbors in neighborhoods are exactly the reason we don't live in one anymore. We don't need to be told what color to paint our house, where we can store our boat, when we can water our lawn, or whether or not we can keep bees. We moved out to the boondocks 9 years ago, and now what we do on our own property is our own business.


----------



## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

Lburou said:


> It sounds like you could use a friend....I've sent you a friend request



That. Was. Funny.

Aerindel: I get your point. I take that tactic when working with companies as it takes a lot to get noticed. If they screw up, I call and let them know. If they don't fix it, I write to every member I can find on their board and every regulatory body that may care. I usually get the problem fixed. 

However, I live in community because I like most people. Yeah, there are some jerks, but I would hate to be the feared person. I personally have had situations where my neighbors go to bat for me in most cases. I also don't want my kids to be killed in a drive by shooting.


----------



## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

A funny option would be to make a hive queenless, then cage the queen and nail the queen cage to the front door.  

Her daughters are going to miss the chickens. Make sure they know why. Funny that she can't get rid of the bees, and the part that her twin girls like is going away. I do like that polka dotted fence thing though.... 

Stupid lazy people are usually the ones that complain. What they don't realize is creative people can make things worse if we are so inclined. It's a shame. Bantams are tiny little chickens. Ugh.


----------



## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

it's misinformation with your neighbors, people think they're like ground wasps who are highly aggressive. I've been out numerous times in my 4 days as a beekeeper walking around them in a t-shirt and shorts. Try bringing the kids over and then the parent or vice versus. My wife is scared of the bees and by the end of the summer she won't care. People just need to learn the rules and see they are harmless if left alone. As for your chickens try to get the law changed, maybe there are others in town who are like "darn I want some chickens". I dunno much about chickens but if you don't need a rooster then maybe you can have chickens without a rooster in your area. I'd be having foghorn leghorn for breakfast if he woke me up at 6am on a weekend.


----------



## Bonnie Botkins (Sep 13, 2011)

Is the township or county already involved? if so have they given you an option? If the town says only 1-2 hives, maybe one of your nice neighbors would let you move the other two hives there?


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Sam 

You _are_ in a pickle. Has the gov't cited you yet for the chickens? If no, I'd quickly find a home for them until the issues have blown over. That way, you still have one more free chance for a warning about the chickens. Then, you can fight the issue of the bees separately. Seems like a minor problem to me. (On the INTERNET, any problem of yours is minor, any of my problems are major  ).


----------



## Widdy (Jan 12, 2012)

You should come to our next meeting and bring up your situation and see what others in the Richmond area recommend. http://www.eastrichmondbees.org/ Its a great group of people with tons of experience.


----------



## K.E.N. (May 5, 2011)

The municode for New Castle, Colorado calls bees and "chickens (because they're load)" nusances and are not allowed but the noisey dogs that bark all night are ok! Never mind that once the bees are gone so are we! As for the chickens! Well! I think I'll keep them anyway! Would you expect any less from the control freaks that run this country!


----------



## The Evil Chip (May 19, 2012)

Here is something interesting from the National Ag Law Center. Virginia has a right to farm law. Here is an interesting section of said law:

§ 3.2-302. When agricultural operations do not constitute nuisance
A. No agricultural operation or any of its appurtenances shall be or become a nuisance, private or public, if such operations are conducted in accordance with existing best management practices and comply with existing laws and regulations of the Commonwealth. The provisions of this section shall not apply whenever a nuisance results from the negligent or improper operation of any such agricultural operation or its appurtenances. B. The provisions of subsection A shall not affect or defeat the right of any person to recover damages for any injuries or damages sustained by them on account of any pollution of, or change in condition of, the waters of any stream or on the account of any overflow of lands of any such person.
C. Any and all ordinances of any unit of local government now in effect or hereafter adopted that would make the operation of any such agricultural operation or its appurtenances a nuisance or providing for abatement thereof as a nuisance in the circumstance set forth in this section are and shall be null and void. The provisions of this section shall not apply whenever a nuisance results from the negligent or improper operation of any such agricultural operation or any of its appurtenances.

Unfortunately the definition of an agricultural operation does not include appear to include beekeeping. Yet. 

Here in Norfolk, we just got our Right to Keep and Bear Bees and Chickens restored. I wonder if some of the municipalities that haven't quite seen the light might need a reminder of state law. Perhaps it's time to get a little stronger pre-emption at the Commonwealth level?


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

@BigGun:That sounds like my issue. Can't see any of my stuff from the street, only from the ROW behind my house. Technically the ROW is not public property, so no one should be back there to see my stuff anyway. The governing body told me "had you not had such a big pile of firewood, we would have never been told to go back there anyway, and would have never found your fruit trees." So in that situation, I would have never had to move them, and no one would have cared. But since they found them, they decided they better be moved. 
They claim the trees aren't indigenous, even though peaches and nectarines are a southern crop. But I guess since I left the tag on the trees (so that I could recall what they are, and so someone wouldn't mow them down) they decided that I must have bought them, not that they sprouted. I'm thinking about buying a bunch of seedling fruit trees, and planting them randomly throughout the woods. Then in few years I'll go back to the governing body, point out that these trees are growing wild, and that they must have sprouted from a peach pit that a squirrel hauled out of my yard. Then I'll make them change their list to include fruit trees as "indigenous".


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

The Evil Chip said:


> Here in Norfolk, we are just now able to exercise our right to Keep and Bear Bees. The ordinance changed in October and lots of folks are getting into it. RKBB is one passion of mine, RKBA is another. In the long term beekeepers in urban areas should start thinking a lot more like the gunnies.
> 
> Q: What would the gunnies do?
> 
> ...


Bahahhahaha!! I just went to my first of a similar meeting for one of these councils about my aforementioned tree removal issue. After our drought down here last summer, this committee has taken on the task of cutting out and hauling away thousands of dead trees, which IMHO don't need to be removed. They have wasted away all of their funds on this paltry task, and are now requesting that all of us homeowners pay out another $95 each so they can continue lining the pockets of the tree removal companies. So I went to the meeting, and watched quietly as the board took a verbal lashing for a solid 30 minutes about all of the things they were neglecting to instead waste everyone's money on dead tree removal. That probably didn't help my cause when I tried to discuss leaving a few trees where they were. I was told that it would be discussed at the next meeting, but with 99.99% certainty that it would get rejected and I should start preparing to move them.


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

Aerindel said:


> Only if you lose. And if your neighbors somehow got your bees taken away your standing wouldn't matter anyway, its not like you ever feel like having anything to do with them again. From the moment they complain the authorities rather than talk to you they have become opponents and if they succeed at taking something away from you that makes it a vendetta.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> How does the saying go? hope for peace, prepare for war?


 My quote is "hope in one hand and crap in the other, see which one fills up faster." I always hold out a little hope that things will go in my favor, but I always prepare for the alternative as well. After all, hope is what got our current administration in office. Let's all sit around and "HOPE for CHANGE"...no, I think I'll just do my part and WORK to create necessary change. Hope I didn't offend anyone on a political basis here, that's not my intent. But I just can't get over that thought, that the entire campaign was run on "hope". Haha, maybe I'll just quit taking care of my bees and hope that they pick up the slack and bring some honey at the end of the day. If not I'll just find some way to make it my neighbors fault, and I'll hope for someone else's bees to pick up the slack, and not only bring me some honey, but also start taking care of my bees too...Sorry, I'm getting off my soap box now!


----------



## Tazcan (Mar 25, 2012)

Tom Brueggen said:


> @BigGun:That sounds like my issue. Can't see any of my stuff from the street, only from the ROW behind my house. Technically the ROW is not public property, so no one should be back there to see my stuff anyway. The governing body told me "had you not had such a big pile of firewood, we would have never been told to go back there anyway, and would have never found your fruit trees." So in that situation, I would have never had to move them, and no one would have cared. But since they found them, they decided they better be moved.
> They claim the trees aren't indigenous, even though peaches and nectarines are a southern crop. But I guess since I left the tag on the trees (so that I could recall what they are, and so someone wouldn't mow them down) they decided that I must have bought them, not that they sprouted. I'm thinking about buying a bunch of seedling fruit trees, and planting them randomly throughout the woods. Then in few years I'll go back to the governing body, point out that these trees are growing wild, and that they must have sprouted from a peach pit that a squirrel hauled out of my yard. Then I'll make them change their list to include fruit trees as "indigenous".


Are you telling us you can not grow fruit trees in Houston? didn't you buy them at a Houston nusery or somewhere here in texas? or did you plant them on someone elses land next to you?


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Tom Brueggen said:


> ...snip... I'm thinking about buying a bunch of seedling fruit trees, and planting them randomly throughout the woods...snip...


Plant vitex trees. They could go under the radar as you propose and make a hundred times more nectar than a fruit tree. I planted 9 plum and peach trees this year, so I'm not against fruit trees.


----------



## Tazcan (Mar 25, 2012)

Lburou said:


> Plant vitex trees. They could go under the radar as you propose and make a hundred times more nectar than a fruit tree. I planted 9 plum and peach trees this year, so I'm not against fruit trees.


These tress grow really fast , i purchased one 3 years ago, it was a twig , it is now 12 foot high and a blooming fool, i have 10 more now and they grow very easy from seeds, they would be everywhere if i did not have my free rangers eating the seeds as they fall, i plan on planting them all the way down my fence row where my road comes in at, that is 2/3 of a mile.
We call this plant the texas lilac


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Tazcan said:


> These tress grow really fast , i purchased one 3 years ago, it was a twig , it is now 12 foot high and a blooming fool, i have 10 more now and they grow very easy from seeds, they would be everywhere if i did not have my free rangers eating the seeds as they fall, i plan on planting them all the way down my fence row where my road comes in at, that is 2/3 of a mile.
> We call this plant the texas lilac


Bees mob the blooms and the blooms last maybe three or four weeks. Great for the bees!


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

Tazcan said:


> Are you telling us you can not grow fruit trees in Houston? didn't you buy them at a Houston nusery or somewhere here in texas? or did you plant them on someone elses land next to you?


I don't mean to hijack the thread with my own problem but here is the story. I live in Kingwood, TX to be exact, a master planned community recently annexed by Houston. Throughout the community we have a network of paved walking trails for all to use and enjoy. As such we have a "trail association" in place to maintain all the trails. This is in addition to the HOA that governs my actual land. The trail association governs trails throughout three adjacent HOA areas. Our "nature areas" if you will are strips of trees that run through the community, usually along the bayous or in otherwise non buildable land. The trails tend to run through these wooded areas.
Also running throughout the community are a network of power lines, which run on an easement shared by the city sewer, cable lines, gas lines, etc. My house does not back up to a trail, but rather an easement. For me to get to a trail, I either have to walk down 4 houses to where it starts, or walk through a 200' wooded area and cross a bayou to get to it. So going out my back gate, I cross a 40 (mowed and maintained by yours truly) easement, then through 200' of un-maintained woods, and then arrive at the trail. 

But the trail association claims all of this property to be theirs, or rather, under their jurisdiction. The letter I received said they have "charged themselves" with maintenance, not that they had been charged with it. Anyway, since I have been mowing and maintaining the ROW for over a year, as have my neighbors on both sides, I figured the lease I could get in return was a little use from the land. So I planted out the fruit trees. People walk back there all the time, walking dogs, playing with kids, etc, and I have received several inquiries/comments on my fruit trees and other plants growing back there. Never a negative remark however. I think the worst would be something like "dang, the blackberries still aren't ripe..." I always explain to people that when the fruit does come, they are welcome to graze as they pass by. 

Well I guess I did cross a line, and I gladly admit it. Last fall, just as bees have honey flows, I had a firewood flow. In one day I cut 3 cords of firewood, and didn't have anywhere to put it just yet. So I stacked it all against the treeline, out of the way, on the easement. It sat there for a good 6 months before any complaints. I should have moved it sooner and could have avoided all this, but I was thinking there was no harm in it being there.

Anyway, I guess someone complained about the firewood, so I was told to move it. When the trail rep walked back there to investigate the firewood (probably the first time they'd ever walked back there) they also noticed that I had a trailer parked behind the house, that I had obviously towed down the easement to get there. They also noticed the fruit trees. So I get a letter telling me to remove the firewood and stop hauling the trailer down the easement. Within the week, I hauled off 4 cords of trash firewood to make space, and moved all my good quality oak from the ROW. I also relocated the trailer to a friends house. So I figured I was good to go. After all, the letter didn't say to move the trees, it just said that they had noticed them. The letter also did not condemn or condone my having maintained the easement for them.

So I went to the meeting (mentioned previously the original purpose of the meeting). During the meeting, the issue of "violations" was brought up, and someone asked about the firewood. One gentlemen replied "it's all gone, every stick". And what about the trailer they asked. "Also gone". So I was thinking I was good, but then they went on "and what about the fruit trees...still there". At this point in the meeting, the public is not allowed to speak, so I just listened and watched, as they discussed sending me another letter to remove the trees, along with some info on their volunteer planting program. So I hung around after the meeting, and approached the board about the issue. I offered to save them a stamp since they are already over budget for the year on their mailing costs. I explained what my intentions and goals were in planting the trees. They didn't seem to care. My trees were not on the list, and were on "their" property. Funny, I just recalled that during the meeting they said "we are in the business of trees" when talking about removing all the drought killed pines. You think they would support my planting, as it in now way harmed or devalued their property. But the trees are not on their list of "indigenous" trees, and were not planted in a seemingly "random and natural" fashion. 

Whew...long story short, no exceptions, despite my intentions, and if I don't move them, I'll lose them. I've thought about petitioning the community the get support from my neighbors, and even potentially stick the trail association, branding them as not really caring about our best interests, and seeing if the neighbors would also start planting trees. The sad part is that my original plan was to sneak the trees out and plant them in the woods and such, but I was afraid they wouldn't get sufficient light to compete with the bigger trees. So instead I planted them for all to enjoy, and now I'm getting punished. I make it sound worse than it is. Below is a link to a YouTube video, originally about my corn, but in it I discuss and show the layout of the trees for a better visual.

http://youtu.be/f1dMcdpZrIM


----------



## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

I sent a private email. I am a planning and zoning consultant and will try to give you some assistance pro bono.


----------



## buzz abbott (Mar 6, 2012)

@Tom check what your ROW/easement actually says in your CC&Rs. It should spell out who has responsibility for what re the ROW. That committee may not have any say about what goes on in the ROW if they are not tasked with enforcement in the CC&Rs. If you find that they do not have that authority, tell them that you will take them to court if they touch your trees.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Sorry, but I don't see the point of moving into an HOA controlled community and then complaining about the rules? 

Also, if someone drove on, used for storage, and planted trees on my land without my permission, I would definitely take steps to stop such activity. I guess I don't understrand all the details of what's going on?

FWIW.


----------



## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

Sam, 
I am currently in the same boat as you. You asked, so here it is:

I've kept bees for 4 years here at my house and with the Police Dept's knowledge/blessing. Heck, I'm the guy they call if someone with a swarm or bee related problem calls them! Last fall, all of a sudden I got a card from the COE (City Ordinance Enforcement) officer saying the bees have to go. I was like what?! I was told by PD that I could have them and HAD their blessing. The COE officer showed me a copy of the city ordinances that dictated what could be kept inside the city limits. Even tho I am less than 75' from being outside the city limits, the bottom line is, I AM IN THE CITY LIMITS. I tried the education route with the officer, even talked about bees being kept in concrete jungles like New York and San Francisco, but this little town has and "issue" with it?! It was like talking to a fence post, however, I do understand, he is just doing his job and my beef isn't with him, it's with the city and it's codes. Since they will not tell you who called, you can not go and talk to that person and educate them either. Heck, the paper wasps that put up nests EVERYWHERE and 10 times more hostile than my bees, yet the city doesn't make an issue about making people take that down. There's a house across town that has a feral colony of bees living in their walls, and that doesn't seem to be an issue either. I've seen feral bees in mailboxes, bird houses, wine barrels, trees, you name it, but if they managed and in a beehive, it's a problem and has to be addressed? Where's the logic in that?!

I also tried to contact Sacramento Area Beekeeping Association through an email and never heard back from them. I later learned that the President of the Association is a lady from work that doesn't like me. She doesn't agree with keeping bees for commercial use. We were talking about bees one day and everything was fine, but once she learned that I was making $ doing this, she got on her high horse and rode off. I tried to talk to her about it, but she's not having it, so I guess I can't expect any help from SABA in working on changing the city ords. 

My neighbor on the side of my house where my hives were kept was well aware that I had bees and was perfectly fine with it, thinks it's cool and I gave them honey too. They'd also buyt honey to send to friends and family. The guy a few more houses down that knows EVERYONE'S business thinks it's neat and buys honey as well. Most of my neighbors have purchased and or bought honey from me.

So basically, I have tried already tried Steven G's idea and it didn't work for me and I am stuck until I can get some "bigger" help or more people on my side so I can approach the city about changing the city ords. I am still hopefully that someday soon I will be able to address this ordinance and get it changed, but right now, it is myself against the 5 or 7 on the board. So if anyone has direction, advise or other people I can talk to about this, I all ears.

I wish you luck in you battle Sam, and please keep me posted on any developements no matter which way they go.

Thanks,
C2


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Batman,

Sorry to hear that. You live in Galt?, can't believe you can't have bees there. I live in West Sac and pretty much under the same boat I think as it's yolo and not sac county. Can't believe Sac is 2 hives while no one else around here is. SABA was pretty worthless to me as well, they didn't even know what ordinance was for W Sac and we're pretty much the same city.


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

buzz abbott said:


> I had hives with feral bees in them for a few years before the city legalized beekeeping. I was not beekeeping at the time just had the equipment and the bees moved in. Last year about this time the city code enforcement people came by and asked if the bees were registered, and told me I had to get them registered. Went to the animal control people (tasked by the city fathers and mothers) and told them code enforcement told me to register the bees. The guy at the desk says 'we don't regisiter bees'. Back to the code guy and he said if they don't want to do it then I don't care, but here is a copy of the regs. Back to the AC show them the regs. Different guy that day. He said the council has not given them the procedure yet (7 months after the ord. was passed) and he would get back to me in a few days. He did, came out and made sure I within specs. I had 4 stacks of boxes and the ord only allows 2. My neighbor is an avid garden and was delighted to take two of the colonies, which got me into compliance. Both the code guy and AC guy were very nice.
> As a result I am told that I am the first officially registered beek in the city.


Bravo! I had exact the same story, but I am the "second" beek in the city. Moreover, the animal control guy told me that registration is for my protection in case neighbors will complain. Neighbors seem to me OK, but when they got some honey from my bees, it sweetened the situation tremendously.


----------



## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

JRG13 said:


> SABA was pretty worthless to me as well, they didn't even know what ordinance was for W Sac and we're pretty much the same city.


JRG, bummer...why are they so many haters on bees? I don't have anything more to say on SABA, they do enough damage on their own. I stop going to the bee store there too, I go to Mannlake in Woodland now, which ironically enough, has a city ordinance against bees as well. :scratch:

If you need anything, don't be afraid to drop me a pm.

C2


----------



## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> The letter I received said they have "charged themselves"


This is most of my problems with my neighbors, they have decided since the county is understaffed/inept at maintaing the easements that they are going to do it however they see fit on my property. 

The only thing worse than government management is people who are not part of the government acting as though they are.


----------



## buzz abbott (Mar 6, 2012)

maybe try to get Mannlake on board the change of ord train? Sometimes councils are a lot more willing to listen to a business than a mere home owner.


----------



## stacyleighpalmer (Feb 19, 2012)

we, like some other people here, moved to the country to we could do what we wanted. i know not everybody can do that, so keep the faith, and find like minded people to stand with you, and keep fighting, nicely, but persistently. some of these recommendations to just be blatantly confrontational, imo, are bad ideas--once people start screaming and being rude, the people they are trying to reach will instantly disregard them.

sam, in tennessee, unless you have signed a hoa contract prohibiting it, you can legally have bees anywhere in the state, so we're lucky there. and, the "urban chicken advocates of nashville" recently won davidson county residents the right to have up to 6 chickens in their backyards. very cool. with such a surge in recent years of interest in organic and sustainable farming/eating, you may be able to find advocates for keeping chickens, or bees, in people who don't want to do it themselves, even, but would support your right to do it. circulate a petiton in your and your friends' neighborhoods with fact sheets, facebook a change.org petition, cruise your local farmer's market and ask to put up a poster/leave petitions there, find out if you have any local/statewide publications listing sources for locally grown/organic meat/cheese/produce & see if they would run a little something about helping change your ordinances. it's a lot of work, but you might could make it happen. 

tom, i really hope wooded areas can help you wade through your issue there, too. trying to prohibit the planting of fruit trees for everyone's enjoyment is just ridiculous. if they prevail, i'd probably have to scatter seeds everywhere i could, on a daily basis. guerilla gardening.  

good luck to you guys.

stacy


----------

