# To Exclude or Not to Exclude



## Tom Fran (May 18, 2010)

What is the consensus on whether to use queen excluders or not? I would like to hear your opinions on this matter.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

If you move a frame of brood above the excluder w/o the queen, it will help to move the bees through the the excluder. 
Another trick is to have some space for the queen to lay in, but not a pile of space.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Sometimes I use them and other times I don't.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I laugh at people that don't know how to use excluders....but then I remember that it took me 10 years to use..not use...use...then figure out how to use them.

There was no internet back then and I didn't really have a mentor so there was a lot of mistake making going on. The nice thing about excluders is that either way isn't wrong. If you like and understand them you can use them, if you don't like them you can save some money.


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## honeydreams (Aug 10, 2009)

some times I use them sometimes I don't if I need comb to draw out nope


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

Tom Fran said:


> What is the consensus on whether to use queen excluders or not? I would like to hear your opinions on this matter.


My opinion is that an excluder is a tool that can be used several ways. I use an excluder for some things, not for others.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I have supers of comb today, after being in storage for many years, because I used excluders. The supers that had brood in the comb were all destroyed by wax worms. For that reason, I use excluders as I don't have to worry about keeping stored comb safe.

I use them when I am having foundation drawn out. I use SC in the brood chambers, but have LC in the honey supers. I don't want the queen moving up into the LC.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Yes and no.

I'm using them next week for requeening purposes. I don't use them to keep queens out of honey supers which is what I suppose this poll is about.

Wayne


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

A queen excluder is a valuable tool. Most hobby beekeepers that do not use one when adding surplus honey supers because they read that they are "honey excluders" should try doing half their colonies with and half without. They will see little or no difference in yield and will have no problem with brood in the supers.


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## clarkfarm (Apr 13, 2009)

I, too, am one of those did, then didn't, now do sometimes. Its wonderful to have those clean honey supers full of pristine capped honey. But sometimes when I would put on a new super with foundation and leave off the excluder until the bees drew out the comb, I would go in to add the excluder and -- wow -- there was brood in there already. Took me a while to get the timing right.

I do think excluders have their place in a hobby bee yard but agree that it is not necessarily intuitive how to use them. Almost got rid of mine and now, with a little experience, would not want to be without them.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

You don't make it clear if it is for honey production or just use them in general. We use them for splits...lots of um. We do not use them between brood boxes and honey supers.


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## Tom Fran (May 18, 2010)

alpha6 said:


> You don't make it clear if it is for honey production or just use them in general. We use them for splits...lots of um. We do not use them between brood boxes and honey supers.


Yes, I meant between the brood boxes and honey supers. Honestly, I didn't realize there were other uses for them. I have lots to learn...


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## sparks2142 (May 26, 2010)

Great question, Tom!! I'm new and just running into this.
I have a single deep that is now booming so I put on a super and excluder thinking that was the "right" thing to do.
After a week or so, no drawn comb. I put a feeder on top to lure the girls through, and still no comb after a week. 
I then read all the above - remove excluder or add brood to super. I still don't know what the most efficient way to get the girls up there is, but here is my experiment:

I removed the super and took one frame from it and placed it in the deep. BAM! One week later the frame is completely filled!! Now, I have placed that frame back in the super and re-installed the super with the excluder.

I'll let ya know in a couple of days whether that sparked activity in the super!!

Good luck!


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## Tom Fran (May 18, 2010)

sparks2142 said:


> I removed the super and took one frame from it and placed it in the deep. BAM! One week later the frame is completely filled!! Now, I have placed that frame back in the super and re-installed the super with the excluder.
> 
> I'll let ya know in a couple of days whether that sparked activity in the super!!


Yes, let me know how that worked out. I just placed a new super above my deep (with an excluder), and a week later nothing was happening. I may have to do what you did, put one of those frames in the deep to get them going on it, and then reinstall it into the super.

I'll be watching for your update!


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## Cascade Failure (Feb 4, 2010)

Tom Fran said:


> I have lots to learn...


Join the club. 

Its kinda funny. You do your research and think you know something and then at some point you realize you don't know anything yet. Then when you think you actually might know something you wonder if you really do.


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## Tom Fran (May 18, 2010)

Cascade Failure said:


> You do your research and think you know something and then at some point you realize you don't know anything yet.


I agree. That's one reason why I like coming to this forum. I like to hear other people's logic and methodology. I really helps me to advance quicker (I think:scratch.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

To exclude or not exclude, that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous nectar flows, or to cast aside all excluders so that honey may be stored above the lowly brood chamber as was intended by natures design, air go the comb being full of honey on a hot day may by it's unsupported weight collapse and drop to the floor of the hive and be useless to the workers who have toiled so long and hard to produce such bountious sweet and heady winters fuel.

Yay, leave off thine queen excluder, thine very honey excluder and manage your hive so that a honey barrier is formed above the brood which by good fortune the queen in her persuit of vacancies to fill won't bother traveling across said honey because it affords her no such wombs to lay in. And she will remain where aught she should, down in the lower depths of her chamber.

Brood below, w/ pollen above and honey stored ever higher. That is the natural order of life in the hive.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Yet when the flow is weak or it rains for weeks and she moves up I'll slip in an excluder to get her back where she belongs. Spring splits I will run as singles with an excluder(after they are working the supers) and give them the top brood box after the main flow so I keep the light honey and the bees get the dark honey in the fall or I feed them to fill the top brood box for winter stores.


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## Tom Fran (May 18, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> To exclude or not exclude, that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous nectar flows, or to cast aside all excluders,,,


That's some pretty good stuff!!!  Is that Shakespeare?


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## sparks2142 (May 26, 2010)

Hey Tom! It worked. I had dropped a super frame into the deep - the girls drew comb on it. I put that frame back in the super, and now they are drawing comb on the frame adjacent to it!! 
So, it took a drawn frame to "jumpstart" the super. And the excluder is still in place.
That was interesting... good luck!


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## Tom Fran (May 18, 2010)

sparks2142 said:


> Hey Tom! It worked. I had dropped a super frame into the deep - the girls drew comb on it.


Thanks for the update! I'm right behind you. I moved a frame into the deep on Saturday, and I'll follow your lead this weekend if they draw comb on it. Thanks for "mentoring" me on this issue.

I was given a complete hive in May of this year. I knew nothing about beekeeping, except that I had an interest in it. I told a friend, whose father was beekeeper, that I would like to get some bees. Six hours later, he called me and told me his father caught a swarm for me, and that I was now a beekeeper. So, I was thrown into it kind of suddenly, and now I'm trying the get my knowledge up to speed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tom Fran said:


> That's some pretty good stuff!!!  Is that Shakespeare?


More like Shookswarm, I believe.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Why don't you guys take the frames of honey and the frames of capped brood and move them from the brood chamber up into the super above the excluder and then replace them w/ drwan comb. Those frames of brood above the excluder will turn into honey and the drawn comb will be new space for the queen to lay. Keep doing that through the season and see how much honey you produce.


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## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

I'm new here....first post.....but, had to ask this. How does one move a frame from a brood chamber to a super? (As brood chamber frames are taller than supers will allow for).


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Dixie, 
Not all of us use mediums for honey supers and deeps for brood. Alot of us use deeps for both. That way when rotating comb, we have some drawn to draw from (pardon the bad pun).
The draw back is that deeps for honey are heavy


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

And dixiebooks, lots of us just use 6-1/4" depth frames in 6-5/8" medium depth supers, for everything, that way we avoid the problem you just mentioned. We can move any frame anywhere else in any of our hives and they will conveniently fit. This greatly simplifies management and, at the same time, reduces the weight we need to carry.


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## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

Thanks, honeyshack and Joseph. Interesting info. This and other threads have got me to thinking (always dangerous)....
.
I have a hive composed of two deeps. The colony seems to be strong and has been since I accidentally caught the swarm about a month ago. (Swarm scouts located the two deeps, each with 10 frames of drawn comb, in the trunk of my car. They went back to tell the whole mob about it and so they moved in. Some of those drawn frames even had honey in them.)

A few days ago, I added 3 supers to my hive - one below and two above the QE. I had intended to not mess with them again for awhile. However, after reading this thread, I think I will check them in a few days. If the top two supers have nothing in them, I may remove them and the QE and put on another deep to let them draw out some comb. Hopefully, they will use them for honey storage and I can use them next year to start a new hive. Downside to this is that honey will be consumed to make the comb and, as I understand it, the sourwood may be just coming in. Maybe if I act quickly.....

Sound like a plan?

-James (beekeeping since last month, so still learning the basics)


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

Tom....buy some books, the internet is not the best teacher! A local beek club would be a really great idea! Fellow beeks from the local area is the best source of info!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

As much as I regret saying so, "Amen, Mike, amen." having a real live person at hand to answer questions and guide one along the way is golden. I look fondly back upon all of my mentors. Even if I don't always follow all of their advice all of the time.


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