# I've heard of the Dyce Method but



## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Is there another process for making creamed honey besides the Dyce Method?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

calkal said:


> Is there another process for making creamed honey besides the Dyce Method?


 My thoughts are that anyone putting another name on it would still have to hit all the same notes. Really not many shortcuts to be taken without making some compromises with stability of the finished product.

There are different options for acquiring or producing the fine starter though.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

crofter said:


> My thoughts are that anyone putting another name on it would still have to hit all the same notes. Really not many shortcuts to be taken without making some compromises with stability of the finished product.
> 
> There are different options for acquiring or producing the fine starter though.


Thats what I was thinking too but then I cam across this machine Machinerie et accessoires de miel crémeux - CreamPAL should be a pop up to switch to English. 
I am still trying to figure out the method by which it makes creamy honey. I talked to the owner of the company and its very intriguing. It creams honey instantly even the smallest machine does 500 pounds per hour. He said seeding the honey is not necessary if you are willing to run the honey through the machine 3 times. If you want to run it through only once then you seed it. Any idea what this machine is doing to produce creamed honey?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

calkal said:


> Thats what I was thinking too but then I cam across this machine Machinerie et accessoires de miel crémeux - CreamPAL should be a pop up to switch to English.
> I am still trying to figure out the method by which it makes creamy honey. I talked to the owner of the company and its very intriguing. It creams honey instantly even the smallest machine does 500 pounds per hour. He said seeding the honey is not necessary if you are willing to run the honey through the machine 3 times. If you want to run it through only once then you seed it. Any idea what this machine is doing to produce creamed honey?


My guess a grinder and blender. The part about taking to a high enough temperature to dissolve all existing crystal structure and kill yeasts would be omitted. Would be suitable for some honey but maybe not predictable for all. There is some interesting dialogue on yeast cell count, moisture levels and fermentation variables with different source honey on one of Bob Binnie's You Tubes. Food for thought at least. 

Maybe this will provoke some input from others with more large scale experience. I have only played around on the kitchen table with my own honey which is a mellow crystallizer. Lots more time meditating about it than doing it.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

crofter said:


> My guess a grinder and blender. The part about taking to a high enough temperature to dissolve all existing crystal structure and kill yeasts would be omitted. Would be suitable for some honey but maybe not predictable for all. There is some interesting dialogue on yeast cell count, moisture levels and fermentation variables with different source honey on one of Bob Binnie's You Tubes. Food for thought at least.
> 
> Maybe this will provoke some input from others with more large scale experience. I have only played around on the kitchen table with my own honey which is a mellow crystallizer. Lots more time meditating about it than doing it.


 I watch all of Bob Binnies videos, tons of good information. The one you spoke of is the one where he had barrels of honey fermenting and overflowing onto the warehouse floor. There's a good reason to harvest honey with the right moisture content.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

calkal said:


> I watch all of Bob Binnies videos, tons of good information. The one you spoke of is the one where he had barrels of honey fermenting and overflowing onto the warehouse floor. There's a good reason to harvest honey with the right moisture content.


Yep for sure. He says that he shoots for 17% or less. A honey that starts out a bit over the allowable ~18.5 or so will create higher water content in the liquid between crystals if they form. If there is _also_ a high yeast cell count fermentation can start there. 
The full Dyce procedure pretty much removes the chance of any surprises and gives better appearance compared to the different color streaks that show in most naturally crystallizing honey.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Honey naturally crystallizes. Sometimes it's smooth like butter and sometimes it's gritty like sand. The difference is in the seed and the temperature. What Dyce came up with was heating it to destroy any large crystals and seeding it with small crystals. I find heating it destroys the flavor, so I never do that. Usually I can just store it at the right temperature (57° F or 14° C ) and it is pretty smooth.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

calkal said:


> He said seeding the honey is not necessary if you are willing to run the honey through the machine 3 times. If you want to run it through only once then you seed it. Any idea what this machine is doing to produce creamed honey?


I have no idea how the machine would guaranty a fine crystallization with no introduction of seed. Not saying it can’t do it, but I would want to see it to believe it. 

I live in a humid climate and harvest “wet” honey. I do not use the 80% rule for harvesting a frame. If it is not fully capped, it does not get harvested. Otherwise, I have trouble. I also produce a lot of creamed honey. I use a Lyson 50L creamer, and produce about 12 gallons each run. 

Because crystallization increases the moisture content of honey, I use Dyce’s pasteurization process to kill the yeast before I cream the honey. I heat 10 gallons at a time to 160F and then place that honey into a deep freezer to cool as quickly as possible. Once cooled below 60F, I mix 10:1 with seed into my creamer.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Michael Bush said:


> What Dyce came up with was heating it to destroy any large crystals and seeding it with small crystals. I find heating it destroys the flavor


I totally agree. When I think about decrysatilization I think long and slow, no more than 95 degrees F.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

psm1212 said:


> I use Dyce’s pasteurization process to kill the yeast before I cream the honey. I heat 10 gallons at a time to 160F


I definitely can't do this, my market demands raw honey, And am pretty sure amazing creamed honey can be made without heating the honey past 95ﾟF.
It can be decrystallised at 95ﾟ just very slowly.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

psm1212 said:


> I have no idea how the machine would guaranty a fine crystallization with no introduction of seed. Not saying it can’t do it, but I would want to see it to believe it.


Yes this has me puzzled too. They said if the honey is run through the machine on 3 separate runs it will cream without seeding. But I think they are refrigerating it for 24 hours in between each run. But I still don't understand how this can produce creamed honey. 
But on all the videos on their website they used 10% seeding and ran it through the machine twice with a 24 hour rest in the refrigerator in between runs.
Sometimes he refers to it as no crystals but I've also seen imprint on their website referred to as micro crystals.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

calkal said:


> I definitely can't do this, my market demands raw honey, And am pretty sure amazing creamed honey can be made without heating the honey past 95ﾟF.
> It can be decrystallised at 95ﾟ just very slowly.


Yes, you *can* cream raw honey, though there is the possibility of grain boundary moisture enrichment above the yeast fermentation level. Overall, and with random honeys, this would very likely be a fairly rare occurrence but probably is the reason for the heating to be the usual part of the process when commercial operators are putting product on store shelves.

One operation remarks in their literature "Due to the nature of this product, no returns will be accepted"
Here is a link to one. How to Make Creamed Honey at Home

If you have a high proportion of canola honey you likely will be extracting with a high proportion of uncapped and high moisture content. It is fairly easy to drop the moisture content by stacking supers and put in a room or tent with a household dehumidifier. That would greatly reduce chances of fermentation of your creamed honey. The Dyce method guarantees it!


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I am not heating the honey to decrystalize it (though it serves that purpose too). I am heating the honey to kill the yeast. 

I keep a copy of Elton Dyce’s 1931 study “Fermentation and Crystallization of Honey” on my bookshelf. I strongly recommend it to anyone who is going to sell cyrstallized honey to the general public. The purpose of Dyce’s study was to determine at what temperature could honey be heated, and for how long must it maintain that temperature, without damaging the honey. 

I encourage you to read Dyce’s study, and subsequent findings for yourself to determine at what temperatures, and at what exposures to those temperatures, honey is degraded. 

What I know for fact is that if I don’t kill the yeasts in the creamed honey I make, the jar will be spoiled within 6 to 12 months. If I did this for just family and friends, I would have no problem with it and would not bother with this very time-consuming step. However, it is the retailer (not me) who will receive the blow back when the jar spoils. I can’t afford that. 

Dyce’s method proclaims that the rapid heating then cooling of honey prevents it from injury. I suppose I will need studies that directly contradict this to change my methods.

I do not pasteurize the honey I sell as liquid honey. It is the crystallization of the honey that increases the moisture content and causes more rapid fermentation.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

psm1212 said:


> I do not pasteurize the honey I sell as liquid honey. It is the crystallization of the honey that increases the moisture content and causes more rapid fermentation.


 Do you know if or where the moisture content cut off would be to not have raw creamed honey ferment? Is there some rule (in Dyce's book) that would indicate for example that 15% moisture honey will not ferment when creamed whereas 18% would?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I am not sure why, but I use Old Timers method of creaming honey; I do not heat it high, maybe a warming box, but gave not had any ever ferment. What I have had happen is having Autumn honey with such high protein it bubbled out of the large jar in my pantry; it did not ferment.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Cloverdale said:


> I am not sure why, but I use Old Timers method of creaming honey; I do not heat it high, maybe a warming box, but gave not had any ever ferment. What I have had happen is having Autumn honey with such high protein it bubbled out of the large jar in my pantry; it did not ferment.


Would that be hydrogen peroxide off gassing?


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

calkal said:


> Do you know if or where the moisture content cut off would be to not have raw creamed honey ferment? Is there some rule (in Dyce's book) that would indicate for example that 15% moisture honey will not ferment when creamed whereas 18% would?


He speaks of “wet” honey fermenting faster, but does not (at least that I can remember) discuss just how much moisture gain is created by crystallization. Since it is the dextrose (glucose) that forms crystals in honey, I would assume that you would have to account for the glucose/fructose balance within your honey as well as its moisture (my assumption, not Dyce).

A big take-away for me from the Dyce paper is that_ “since yeasts are incapable of growth at temperatures below 52F, fermentation might be controlled by keeping the honey in cold storage.”_ He then goes on to discuss how impractical and expensive cold storage is. But it is not 1931 anymore. 

I don’t know why we do not sell this product as a product to be refrigerated. In 1931, I suppose not everyone had refrigerators. But now, they are a common household appliance. Yes, you still have the grocery store shelf issue (cooler space is more expensive than shelf space), but why aren‘t we selling this stuff with a “refrigerate once opened” directive on the label? It would work to greatly extend shelf life. Also, yeast is everywhere. You can kill it, but opening the jar on a multi-use basis is going to introduce more yeast. Refrigeration is just an easier solution than it was 90 years ago. Maybe this should be rethought.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I took a really deep dive into this when I finally had a seed that I thought was perfect and set off a couple of gallons of it for the following spring. After my first harvest the following season, I broke out my seed, unscrewed the lid, and could immediately smell the fermentation. Ruined.

I now refrigerate all of my seed between seasons (just in case).


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

psm1212 said:


> I took a really deep dive into this when I finally had a seed that I thought was perfect and set off a couple of gallons of it for the following spring. After my first harvest the following season, I broke out my seed, unscrewed the lid, and could immediately smell the fermentation. Ruined.
> 
> I now refrigerate all of my seed between seasons (just in case).


Do you keep track of moisture content? I have only dabbled with this but your experience with fermenting is a caution. The batch of supers I did in the fall with a lot of uncapped which I stacked with a dehumidifier was down close to 16%. I would like to think there is no way that would have fermented. I have not stored any of my creamed honey which I had not heated. I dont think I would risk doing a big bunch of it without.

Call it "creamed wild flower honey" and just dont mention the heating. I think if you can do good control you can heat enough to disable yeasts but still far below what could honestly be called "pasteurized". If you cool it quick you lose darned little flavor.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Frank: I own a refractometer and I routinely check my honey. My very best measurement is a little above 17%. I am usually right at 18%. Because I am so hyper-aware of the line I am on, I only take COMPLETELY capped frames for harvest. If they cannot fully cap it, it stays with the bees.

To further complicate my issue, I live in SHB country. I cannot leave supers in a hot room to dehydrate. They will get slimed within 48 hours. So I harvest wet honey. It stays pretty stable while liquid. I have only had a single quart jar ferment with liquid honey. However, creaming it crystallizes the glucose portion and expresses the moisture into the remaining fructose, causing a problem for me.

I don’t think this is a problem nation (or continent) wide. Those with more arid climates probably don’t have to worry about this as much as I do. I suggest purchasing a refractometer (they are cheap, unless you get the digital versions). If you have dry honey, I don’t know that pasteurization is necessary. It certainly is a pain and, as calkal points out, it is very difficult to educate your customers why this has to be done. 

As far as flavor loss, I notice none. And I have blind-tested it on my wife, who can smell and taste on a freakish level.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

psm1212 said:


> I don’t know why we do not sell this product as a product to be refrigerated. In 1931, I suppose not everyone had refrigerators.


Pretty sure in 1931 most of them were "ice boxes" rather than refrigerators. Remember my parents occasionally saying ice box in the 60s!


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

crofter said:


> Would that be hydrogen peroxide off gassing?


Hmm, I do not remember what I was told (this was at a bee meeting). I will try and find out though.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

William Bagwell said:


> Pretty sure in 1931 most of them were "ice boxes" rather than refrigerators. Remember my parents occasionally saying ice box in the 60s!


I know this is off topic; when we were kids there was still an ice man that came around the neighborhood.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> Pretty sure in 1931 most of them were "ice boxes" rather than refrigerators. Remember my parents occasionally saying ice box in the 60s!





Cloverdale said:


> I know this is off topic; when we were kids there was still an ice man that came around the neighborhood.


It has been about 30 years since I have seen the genuine article in a home. It was being used as a living room decoration at the time but was fully functional. The museum in Peshtigo, WI has many ice harvesting tools which I thought were really "cool".


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Saw an ice box in an antique store a just a few years ago. Over $400! Would have bought it if we were rich and had a bigger house. 

No home ice delivery when I was a kid but there still a place that sold block ice in Marietta Ga. Remember going with my dad to buy one to chip up to make hand cranked ice cream. Bagged cubes were likely available as well but were not yet sold every where like they are today.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Don’t remember my first refrigerator, but I do remember when we first got one with an ice maker in side. Complete game changer.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Speaking of block ice, I still have an ice pick. It has a wooden handle with a steel cap on top for striking with a mallet. Just how it was done back in the day. My grandmother's refrigerator (circa1950's) ran on natural gas. It was many, many years before I understood how THAT worked.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I don't know if it is a rule, law or phenomenon having to do with crystals, but it states that Like follows Like. If you have large particles in your honey such as pollen, you will end up with coarse creamed honey.















Also, crystals stop growing when they contact another crystal during the continual stirring of the crystalizing honey. I think this is where the name "spun" honey originated.

I believe the seed crystals that are being sold are dried and then ground to a very fine texture.

If I have frames that have uncapped honey I run them through my tangential extractor before uncapping in order to remove the unripe honey. It goes pretty quickly since there is no uncapping. I feed this back to a hive or two for finishing. Then I uncap and extract as usual. I haven't had any creamed honey ferment using this process.

The smoothest raw creamed honey I have made was by using this product as seed, I'm sure there are others that would work just as well. To be certain, I could say my creamed honey is 90% raw, 100% if this label is true. 
Some of the claims on the label run counter to what I have learned about creamed honey. I suppose they could have allowed the honey to crystalize naturally then naturally ground the crystals to a fine texture to be used as seed. I do not see how they can make a product this smooth without filtering. I suppose they could hold it at 57 while constantly stirring. Their definition of natural and my definition may not be the same.  

Alex


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