# How level must a hive be?



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

3/4" in is a 1/4" per foot grade. That's the slope a plumbing line requires to drain properly.
Front to back isn't as important as side to side. Try to get it between the lines side to side.


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## Shelleyanne (Jan 23, 2014)

Its not 3/4 inch in, the bubble is 3/4 of the way in the line so 1/4 of the way past the line. Does that make sense? The bubble is mostly inside the line by 3/4 of the way.


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## Steve Johnson (Apr 25, 2012)

As was already stated, front to back is important, but not as important as left to right. The bees will find whats true level is, and the comb they build will be wherever that ends up. I know this from experience. A box full of foundation less comb that starts at the top of the frame in the middle, and touches the bottom or doesn't touch the bottom towards the side of the frame. When you go to pull the frames in a few months,just to see how beautiful they are....... you will crush bees, possibly the queen, kill brood, release honey all over the hive and kill more bees and rip comb off the frame before you get it out of the hive. Take the time and effort now to make sure its level and save yourself and the bees huge amount of wasted time and frustration. Again, I only know this from my own experiences. Good luck !


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

The more level it is, the better, but it sounds like you probably have it level enough to not have big problems. Give it a try and see how it turns out? Would you be able to shim the stand at later date if it gives too many problems?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Try to get it between the lines side to side.

You can get by with a lot of things, but you may regret it. I try to get it between the lines also. It will settle anyway, and the closer you start out the better. As mentioned, front to back doesn't matter much, but side to side does. If it's too far off the combs will start on the top bar of one frame and end on the bottom boar of the next frame over. The combs will be plumb. It is helpful if the frames the combs are in are also plumb.


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## Shelleyanne (Jan 23, 2014)

Ok, Exactly between the lines it is. Hubby will have to give me a hand, what a job I had trying to get it accurate so I got fed up and thought/hoped I could get away with it as it was. Thanks for the advice. It is important to get it right I can see that now.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Put your level back on the hive. Now left one end till it shows exactly level. Measure the gap this creates at one end.

For rough figuring, if your comb starts dead center on the frame at the top, it'll be off center by rough 2/3 of that measurement for deep frames, and half that for medium frames.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Ray had a great suggestion on shims. You could fine tune the leveling with shims under the bottom boards to get it just right side to side. Once all the frames are drawn out it's not so critical to have it perfectly level.


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

I don't know if this helps or not but I have found a pan of water placed on top & eyeballed is the easiest way for me to level a hive.
I came across this ideal after a frustrating back & forth with a level.


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

You can also help to guide the frames by adding the foundationless frames between frames that are already drawn out also. I started using all 'new foundation' and then quickly switched to using popsicle sticks and have also started by cutting the foundation to an inch or so and using that as a 'starter' line for the bees. just a thought for using foundationless framing..


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Centered between the lines is perfect. I don't get that picky. But I want it between the lines...


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Ray had a great suggestion on shims. You could fine tune the leveling with shims under the bottom boards to get it just right side to side. Once all the frames are drawn out it's not so critical to have it perfectly level.


I use shims--they are great. I make sure I always have extra packages of shims. And I focus on side to side level, inside the lines.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I level side to side, but tilt the hive forward slightly off level for run off.

For some, "level" is just not that important.


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## Shelleyanne (Jan 23, 2014)

What are shims? I looked up an image search and they look like washers, Is that what you put under the legs?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Anything used to make space is a "shim" but what you buy at the lumber yard is 1 1/2" wide strips of wood shingles. They are tapered and are about 12" or so long and 3/8" at one end and nothing at the other end.


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## hideawayranch (Mar 5, 2013)

> If it's too far off the combs will start on the top bar of one frame and end on the bottom boar of the next frame over.


This is exactly what happened to my Top Bar Hives. I moved one end of the hive about 3 inches and it cleared up all the cross combing. I couldn't believe my eyes. I struggled with that silly hive an entire season, then voila!


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

I was a carpenter in a former life, and I have always though that it isn't "level" until it's level....meaning the bubble centered between the lines. Some days the bubble will be shorter than other days....so inside the line will actually vary according to weather conditions.

I think if you level them the very best you can from side to side, then you give them the best chance to get it right.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Plumb enough so it won't fall over is good enough. Some people like to tilt hives a scoch so rain doesn't collect on the top of the hive. It doesn't take much.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Plumb enough so it won't fall over is good enough. Some people like to tilt hives a scoch so rain doesn't collect on the top of the hive. It doesn't take much.


yes I do raise the back of all mine 3/4 of an inch. But side to side they need to be level.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If u say so. Precision is over rated. Good enough is good enough.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Mark, note that the OP is asking about a hive with _foundationless_ frames.  Without foundation, many people believe that it is more important to have hives level if you want straight comb. Certainly having the hive level _across _the frames is more important than level _parallel _to the frames.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh, okay, sorry. I guess I should have started from the beginning. My mistake.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Oh, okay, sorry. I guess I should have started from the beginning. My mistake.


Perhaps,....you know there is a slim, slight, very minute possibility that you might actually agree with me on something.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Gee, I don't know about that. 

I have never used a level in a bee yard. Though I do have a friend who has leveled his pallets using a level. Me, I just shift the pallets around until they look more or less like they won't tip over when boxes are stacked high.

Now, when it comes to foundationless comb building I leave that to the guys who do it. Y'all.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Side to side 'level' is essential with foundationless frames otherwise you get drawn comb that hangs to the side and out of the frame.

I don't take a level with me though, I eye ball it. And this is only if I have bees drawing comb, if they're on drawn comb/drawn supers it doesn't really matter.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

Shelleyanne said:


> What are shims? I looked up an image search and they look like washers, Is that what you put under the legs?


I got mine either at Ace or Home Depot. It's a package of around a dozen wood pieces that start at about 1/4 inch deep(I haven't measured) then narrow to very thin. About 1 1/2 inch wide, 3 inches length. I have my hives on cinder blocks and level as best I can. Then I use the shims under hive corners for fine tuning, using a small level like yours. They make the job much easier. When the frames are drawn out the precision isn't that important, as others have said. 

Not sure what department I get them in but the store associates will help you. I particularly like Ace for getting help. They are cheap.


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## Shelleyanne (Jan 23, 2014)

Cool, I'll get some shims. Never seen them before. I hope they sell them in NZ. I'll take a look tomorrow.


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## HeathSpringBees (Dec 10, 2013)

NewJoe said:


> yes I do raise the back of all mine 3/4 of an inch. But side to side they need to be level.


Is it ok to raise just one side of the cover, so that the rain wont collect on it, but, you can have your hive level both front to back and side to side?


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

FYI,
They make plastic shims that will take the elements and last a very long time.
Here's a pic of what they look like.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

HeathSpringBees said:


> Is it ok to raise just one side of the cover, so that the rain wont collect on it, but, you can have your hive level both front to back and side to side?


Sure...you can actually have it level all the way around and have the cover level too.....only thing is it will hold a tiny bit of water on top.

The real reason I lift the back of mine 3/4' isn't really to keep water off the outer cover, I raise the back in hopes of any condensation in the winter getting closer to the entrance and out of the hive.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

NewJoe said:


> yes I do raise the back of all mine 3/4 of an inch. But side to side they need to be level.


Like NewJoe and many others I raised the back on purpose, but side to side took pains to get it very close. I also went foundationless, with very pleasing results.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

My second summer of beekeeping, I had a hive that was a bit elevated in front during the rainy season. Yup, when I realized what had happened, I tipped up the back and a flood of water full of dead bees came out. The hive survived and is still going strong but I never forgot it. With all our sand I'm always checking for settling.


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## hideawayranch (Mar 5, 2013)

> I also went foundationless, with very pleasing results


Do you run Langstroth? can you share a bit about the process of going foundationless?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you run Langstroth? can you share a bit about the process of going foundationless? 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#howdoyougofoundationless


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