# Any one see this design for a horizontal hive?



## arownious (Jun 4, 2015)

http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/long-langstroth-plans.shtml

I guess its technically a "long langstroth" because it uses langstroth frames, but the guy built it almost exactly like a top bar and is using foundationless frames. Since I haven't bought materials yet to build my first hive (Was planning on top bar) I'm wondering what the cons would be to this hive? It uses standard sizes frames, the bees get to build their own comb, I can transfer swarms/cut outs from a standard NUC, and it doesn't really have any angles which makes this thing super simple to build.


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## hideawayranch (Mar 5, 2013)

A friend and I built this just a couple weekends ago, with modifications. You actually use "deep" frames. We installed the girls the same day! We did the no shake method of installation, though we did pour a bunch on the queen to keep her warm for the night, but my the next day all the girls were out of the cage and busy at work. It is our experiment, so we have no real results to share yet, be we are pretty excited about it. The major pro that I see is no broken comb slopping down on the bees and coating them with honey. I plan on making the true "Horizontal Deep" that Fedor uses in his book.


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## Montyb (May 27, 2013)

I built one similar and hived a package April 18th. They are doing great. I like it much better than my TB hive.


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## Life is Good! (Feb 22, 2013)

Third year kTBH keeper here.
I am looking into building this plan to start a 'superable' hive structure. With my current TBH, I cannot add a super for honey production without removing my entire gable roof, which is hinged to the hive body. While this is a functional hive to work and I've enjoyed using it (as have my bees), there are limitations to it. Having only 40 bars limits the size of the colony. Not being able to add a super of honey above the broodnest for over-wintering is problematic as well. (Coldest winter on record 2012-2013, I lost a hive to freezing...I'm trying to learn from those mistakes) 

What I don't like about this plan is the single solid roof. I will make a roof which is divided into sections/segments - more like a series of commercial covers butted up one another. That way, when working the hive, you'll expose just a part at a time. Idea is from Michael Bush....check out his website to learn more.

I'm also not fond of the side entrances. I've had end entrances on my kTBH's - it works just fine. So I'm changing the entrance location.....I know that's a whole raging debate among TBH folks....not going into the debate - I'm sticking to what I know and what works for my apiary site. Further, because my apiary is in a floodplain, anything built must be on stilts...hen houses, beeyard, even location of orchard plants is carefully orchestrated. So the legs on this hive will be altered to match what the site requires. 

However, the long lang seems like a fantastic hybrid between two quite divergent concepts. If you've run a TBH, you know the management needed, but with the convenience of standard lang equipment. My hives are built such that I can switch bars between them....guess I'll need to incorporate that into the new one as well.


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## arownious (Jun 4, 2015)

Thanks guys for all the replies, its very encouraging! I just bought my materials last night and I'll be making a modified version of the plans, but a bit more simple. I'm also thinking about drilling 3 holes instead of long openings for the bees, much like a top bar. I have no experience in any of it, but I've read up on and seen videos about hive robbing and that stuff freaks me out. Its like looting but without the Molotov ****tails. I've also just ordered my foundationless deep frames from beethinking.com.

I've also got much of my stuff together to do my first cut out, but I'm stuck on what beesuit or jacket/veil to purchase. Assuming I don't run into an AKB hive, do I really need a full on suit? What would be a good starter protection setup that wont murder my wallet or murder my desire to keep bees?


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I'm going to build one at some point, but I have heard someone describe the long hive as all the disadvantages of a Lang and all the disadvantages of a TBH rolled into one. I think the argument is you end up having to make/purchase frames for them (disadvantage of Langs) and you can't super them (disadvantage of TBHs). But you can run three sided frames if you like, and you can super them. But keep in mind that if you do super them they will likely either move up or out, but not both. 

I would like to use it for nucs and splits.


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

It has been almost I month but so far I like the long lang. Life is about trade offs, I have a bad back and heart trouble so I like the very little lifting part. I would think that the honey production should be greater than a TBH but less than a traditional lang. Since we are not big honey eaters harvesting one or two frames from each hive during different flows is all I need. I have 6 top boards on the hive so I can either open everything at once or just remove one top board at a time to inspect about 6 frames at a time.


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## Montyb (May 27, 2013)

The girls are still doing great on my long Lang ( pic in post above). What I find curious is that although they have a top and bottom entrance I would say at least 95% of the girls use the top entrance. Very few will use the bottom. And to ease working the hive I cut the inner cover into three sections so I can be selective of which portion of the hive I want to open up.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I definitely think multiple inner covers is the way to go. I wouldn't want to remove a single inner cover from a large horizontal hive, it would probably be glued down really tight. Plus ever bee in the hive would run up to see what is going on. I think that something about 8 or 10 inches wide would be the way to go.


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## HappyBeeing (Apr 6, 2013)

Top bar hives don't Need a super of honey if they have plenty of bars inside going into winter so I'm sure pretty sure the same is true of long langs.
My TBs (first year one hive,second winter 3 hives) overwintered fine with 30-40 lbs in them.Note: my bees are Carniolans/to local bred queen's mutts, and they overwinter in smaller clusters and eat less honey than Italians(from what I've read AND I know my clusters got small). As soon as Spring flow starts I harvest the leftover honey from winter and get a couple of full bars each hive,while the bees are well fed and can start over easy. 

It must be "in the air" this year because I'm doing a long lang soon Too! I just bought the foundationless deeps from bee thinking Also! And after 3 years with my top bars,but no lang experience, I'm Also doing several custom ideas. Split inner cover of thin board that opens about 5 frames at a time is frequently used (found that online 3 or 4 times)and that's part of my plan Too.  

I did a split 2 months ago into a lang nuc from one of my 3 top bar hives and they are bringing in pollen so they got their queen raised;good to go for their own hive. I've seen articles where people super the back end of long hives successfully and can still open and inspect the brood area in the front half(or 2/3). I've also read that they produce more honey than top bars,with a bigger population,so for Me I'll be getting more honey than my other hives anyway and doubt if I'll ever super.

Glad to hear about the door issue and that bees seem to prefer top entry....at least for Montyb.(ya never know with bees though!) I hadn't decided on that since I have no robbing issues using a long bottom entry when I slide a boardman feeder in.I put the feeder on one side and block the middle with a slat and make the robber bees fight the guards on the Inside for too far.The robbers just never make it to the feeder,thats full of the colonies bees feeding from the inside anyway.


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## Life is Good! (Feb 22, 2013)

arownious said:


> I've also got much of my stuff together to do my first cut out, but I'm stuck on what beesuit or jacket/veil to purchase. Assuming I don't run into an AKB hive, do I really need a full on suit? What would be a good starter protection setup that wont murder my wallet or murder my desire to keep bees?


I see you're in TX...you'll want a good ventilated bee jacket at minimum, and if you're near any AKB, I'll spring the extra $$ for a full-out suit. Here in N IL, we have hot, humid summers - so I planned for it with a ventilated bee jacket with attached hood. Best investment yet. I have a pair of nylon long pants which I can wear with the jacket - thing is...if you're going to get stung, you're going to get stung, no matter the protection. I've been stung through leather gloves, through corduroy flannel lined jeans, through the bee jacket....if the girls are that ticked off, they'll find a spot to get you. 

My jacket came from www.pigeonmountaintrading.com and set me back about $120. I've washed it twice (without the veil) in the last three years. It's holding up terrifically and I do recommend it. I know there are other suppliers out there - try putting 'ventilated bee suit' in google and see what pops out.


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## TxGypsy (Mar 17, 2012)

arownious said:


> I've also got much of my stuff together to do my first cut out, but I'm stuck on what beesuit or jacket/veil to purchase. Assuming I don't run into an AKB hive, do I really need a full on suit? What would be a good starter protection setup that wont murder my wallet or murder my desire to keep bees?


Get a full ventilated bee suit and wear it! A non-ventilated suit is torture during Texas summers. Full suits are a must for doing cut outs. I wear a full suit every time I get into my hives. A hive can turn aggressive between one inspection and the next due to the aggressive genetics we have from Africanization here in Texas. Especially if you don't work your hives every couple of weeks there is the possibility of supercedure or swarming. You may not know that you have a new queen and there is no way to know what she mated with.


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## TxGypsy (Mar 17, 2012)

I do not understand why y'all are ordering special frames for foundationless. Just get wedge top frames and remove the wedge. It's that simple.

I believe it was on Michael Bush's site that I saw he sized his long hive to fit migratory lids. This would make supering a piece of cake. Just remove a lid and place a box on it. 

Something that I have done this year is to move honey frames to one of my strongest hives. I raise bees for queen rearing and making nucs rather than for honey. Of course the little darlins keep insisting on harvesting surplus honey. I like to keep most of my hives as a single deep for ease of management. So I designated some of my biggest strongest double box hives.....the ones that I simply can't keep as a single....as honey finishers. When a hive has a frame that is getting towards being ready to be capped I remove it and place it into one of the honey hives and give that hive a new foundationless frame to draw out. This keeps the bees in the singles working on what I want them to work on.....raising brood. It keeps the brood nest nice and open and gives the queen plenty of room to lay because I'm not letting them take up space with excess honey storage. 

If you don't want to super a long hive, and assuming that you have a standard hive, there is no reason that this same method couldn't be applied.


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## Metropropolis (Feb 15, 2012)

I build an observation longhive a few years ago. more or less the same, but the entrances are at the end(s), and it has windows.

It is not a hive that performs well for me. My vertical Langs, in the same location, and with the same bees, have consistently outperformed it, both in terms of brood-frames, and in terms of honey production. Survival is neither better, nor less.

The one saving grace it has is that at 48" it can be divided in order to hold two colonies - Probably still not as productive as two individual hives, but does allow me overflow-space to put swarms.

I know there is an attraction to dismissing convention and taking the road less travelled, but having been down this road, I can't recommend it.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

TxGypsy said:


> I do not understand why y'all are ordering special frames for foundationless. Just get wedge top frames and remove the wedge. It's that simple.


I've purchased Kelly's foundationless frames before when I needed frames. If I recall there wasn't any difference in price, so there was no reason not to purchase them versus using a wedge top.


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## Faith Apiaries (Apr 28, 2015)

shannonswyatt said:


> I've purchased Kelly's foundationless frames before when I needed frames. If I recall there wasn't any difference in price, so there was no reason not to purchase them versus using a wedge top.


My supplier doesn't carry those as far as I know. I wish they did...I spent hours cutting and installing the wedges, but they work great now! The first few I installed like this, then I started putting wire in them to support the comb. The comb in the wired frames is very stable now.


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## TxGypsy (Mar 17, 2012)

Ok, it appears that Kelly charges the same price for all their frames.....which is still double or more what Dadant and Mann Lake charge. That is probably why I didn't know that Kelly charges the same for all their frames lol.

There is no need to install wedges. Just remove the wedge bar from a frame. That gives them a straight edge to work from. I run all of my hives with foundationless and this is what I do. You just need to checkerboard. Place an empty foundationless frame between two drawn frames so that they will draw it out straight.

For some reason I keep ending up with frames that I've removed the plastic foundation from(it's one of those mysteries like where do all the lost socks end up). I like to take a wedge bar that I've removed from another frame and install it in the slot to make a straight edge for them to draw from, but I've placed them into hives not realizing they didn't have a straight edge and the bees draw them out just fine as long as there are 2 drawn frames on either side of them.


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## NSBee (Dec 20, 2014)

yup I built a modified version of the hive using this plan . I used 2 2x6 instead of 1x12 and fastened them together , this was alot cheaper than 1x12 and gave me the same space . I also drilled 5 3/4 inch holes in one end for the entrance instead of the slots on the side , and i hinged the top . it didn''t take long to build , and the bees seem to like it . I started with a 4 frame nuc at the end of may and they have been building like mad , I have about 15 frames total now . 

modifications i would make are :
mount the legs on the end not the side , and mount them at an angle for better stability . this probably is not necessary but it is an easy thing to do , also add cross bracing . this will be a heavy unit when full of 31 full honey frames . the more bracing the better . 

don't bother with hinges on the cover . I have found that it is not worth the trouble , and I don't like flipping the cover over and having bees on the outside of the hive . plus it will make suppering harder if i want to add them . 

all things considered it is a good plan , and I plan to make quite a few more .


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

TxGypsy said:


> Ok, it appears that Kelly charges the same price for all their frames.....which is still double or more what Dadant and Mann Lake charge. That is probably why I didn't know that Kelly charges the same for all their frames lol.


Just checked. I purchase them 100 at a time, they are cheaper at Dadant, but I get free shipping on 150 at Kelly for over $150. Mann Lake charges a dollar more for 100 frames than Kelley, free shipping over $100. If you want to save money, purchase the Dadant frames when they have the free shipping in the middle of the winter. If you want to go insane, make your own!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Leaving a super of honey on a long hive in the winter can be disastrous... the bees move up into the super and leave all the rest of the stores behind and starve in the super with many pounds of stores left down in other end of the long hive...


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

A simple solution, which I always did, is to put follower boards in, restricting the bees to the combs directly below the super(s), converting it into a vertical hive for winter.


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