# Italian vs Carny bees



## Ross

In your area, I think either will work. Here in the land of the summer dearth, Carnis didn't do so well. They shut down brood rearing when other hives are booming and get robbed pretty badly.


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## Ben Brewcat

Well, that's a little like asking about trucks, women, or politicians . From the "general wisdom": Generally speaking both are gentle, productive strains. Italians keep bigger numbers and so can capitalize on early flows. They are more prone to robbing behavior. And they may be a little more prone to some pests/diseases, though there are breeds now that are more resistant. Carnis' broodrearing is more responsive to conditions, meaning they can slow down in a dearth or build up quickly. They overwinter with a smaller cluster. They are somewhat more swarmy (due to this buildup in response to forage thing, if you don't keep aware they'll get ahead of you). And they fly at somewhat cooler temps.

They're the only races I've had so far aside from queens I've raised here, and both are good bees, fun to work and productive in my experience.


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## Scut Farkas

Don't forget about the Russians!




IABeeMan said:


> I am ordering 4 packages of bees this week and the supplier offers both italian and carnolian bees. I was wondering what the pros and cons are of the two diff breeds. I live in western Iowa and can have rather cold winters and rather hot summers.


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## Joseph Clemens

IABeeMan said:


> I am ordering 4 packages of bees this week and the supplier offers both italian and carnolian bees. I was wondering what the pros and cons are of the two diff breeds. I live in western Iowa and can have rather cold winters and rather hot summers.


I think you mean Carniolan, presently there is no Carnolian race of honeybee.


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## bleta12

Joseph Clemens said:


> I think you mean Carniolan, presently there is no Carnolian race of honeybee.


Hi Joe,
Do you have actually any beekeeping ideas on the question raised by the starter of this thread or your contribution is limited on correcting any misspellings that has zero practical value.

P.S.
Please feel free to correct any misspelling I have done in this reply, I am sure that will make me a better beekeeper.

Gilman

To IAbeeman,
Get two each end see the difference yourself. Next year get two more carniolans.

Good luck


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## xC0000005

Up here I'm pleased with the carniolans. The only thing about it is that they seem to winter with the smallest number bees I've seen from any race. They dropped to this cluster size when the fall dearth started and stayed there. Fed them, they started up then went right back to their "lean" size when I stopped feeding. The ferals I collected are wintering with a small cluster but not as small as the carnis. Temperment wise I can't complain.

For your area I can't really give any advise on how well they winter.


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## Joel

We've used both extensivley in the our Fingerlakes regions climate. My all time favorite bees I were the shiny Yellow Corodovan Italians from Hawaiin Queen. They were beautiful, gentle bees that laid unbelievable amounts of brood, made good crops but did not winter well.

My experiance with 3 banded Italians found they did not winter nearly as well as Carniolans due to having such a large brood nest to overwinter requiring more stores. They were gentle and pleasant to work and very consistent producers because they did not shut down between our summer and fall flow. Carniolans winter smaller clusters and winter well but produce less honey than the Italians did. They also seem to produce more propolis (which is good if you sell) but tend to glue everything together.

I would 2nd Gilmans' suggestion and get both races (and others next year) because in the end half the fun of this is learning through experimentation and you'll keep your genetics fresh.


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## Joseph Clemens

bleta12,
Presently I don't have the resources to invest in too many different honeybee races, I've already invested in Cordovan Italian queens, and I still have a few hives of mutts that I started from a cut-out of open air comb hanging beneath a neighbors manufactured home. Though the Cordovan Italians are doing fairly well, the wild mutts still have them beat, except the mutts are still a bit too "runny on the combs", and a little too easily excited. Due to our intense Summer heat, I try to keep lighter colored bees in order to possibly reduce the heat stress levels. I have also heard that Carniolans are a dark colored race, overwinter with small populations, are quick to build up once conditions are right. More information is also available at: Carniolans. Several decades ago, while I was still beekeeping in California I tried a few hives of "Midnite" hybrids, reportedly a hybrid between Caucasian and Carniolan races. They were a dark bee that used way too much propolis for my taste, though otherwise I had no major problems with them. My other hives, at that time, were "Starline" hybrids, and the differences in propolis use were quite obvious.

My help with spelling of core beekeeping terms is focused not only on my desire to be able to perform accurate searches of this forum in the future, when I too might be interested in reading what has been said about Carniolans, but to help reduce unintentional misspellings of words that might be a search term for myself or others, now or in the future. I would appreciate the same courtesy, if I too were to unintentionally misspell any word directly related to bees or beekeeping.


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## tecumseh

well joseph has decided to be the spellin' monitor and that is just fine by me.... 

joseph sezs:
Several decades ago, while I was still beekeeping in California I tried a few hives of "Midnite" hybrids

tecumseh replies:
well I think that midnights were hybrids (a three way cross I seem to recall) that required some franchise fee to sell or advertise a honeybee as a midnight. so the name was trademarked and protected by law.

so a midnite hybrid would not be a hybrid at all but would be what you call... simply a mutt.


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## Bizzybee

Yeah, but doesn't "hybrid" sound so much more impressive!! And a value added component for the seller. 

I think there are some distinct generalized differences between the races. But also remember all bees are not created equally within any given race. Depending on where your bees come from, they have been selected to do what the breeder has elected to deem as worthy of their cause.

I don't personally see much difference at all between the Russians and Carnies. While there are some very general but strong differences between them and the Italian breeds. Most of which have been mentioned. I don't see the swarming tendencies with the my Carnies as it was suggested, but don't doubt their assessment for their bees. I also don't see the robbing tendencies of my Italians. Although if I expect to find it from any, it would be the Italians. I have also found the black bees to be more aggressive in defending their hives from intruders like robbers.

In the spring I will see the Italians run off and leave the black bees sitting at the gates when it comes to build up. Primarily because they do have larger numbers of bees to start with. They will build huge hives quickly. But and a big "BUT" the black bees will soon, withing about 3 weeks, have their numbers up as well and get down to the business of making honey. Making a much smaller hive but producing almost as well as the Italians because of the lower numbers. (Less to eat)

Here in the south where we see some long hot dry seasons after June, the black bees will shut down. So that has to be kept in mind in this region. They will be consuming stores up to the point of fall flow, and because the fall flow tends to be light at best, they will not likely be able to build up fast enough to gain anything significant for the rest of the year to feed on. Again though, having the bees shut down through the peak of varroa season is a blessing in itself. 

The Italians on the other hand will still be strong enough to get in on the fall flow, but because of their large numbers will also require more feed for the rest of the year. Our summers are hot and dry enough to also cause a shutdown in brood for them as well, so that also helps with the varroa for them as well.

As far as wintering and summer. The black bees do well in the heat for survival and the Italians do well in the winters which are typically pretty mild. But you can see that management of both types of bees can be very different to see that they have what they need to survive well. Since we insist on stealing their bounty. 

In the end, if honey is your goal as it is for most. I would have to give the Italians one up on the black bees. But they run a close second. No doubt individual hives will do better than others and you will see a mix of who is doing better. But then that's where part of your own selections begin if you plan to make your own queens for the future.


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## WVbeekeeper

Since you are getting four packages, why not get two packages of Italians and two Carniolans? It would be a great learning experience for you to be able to compare the different breeds throughout the year and it would be the best way for you to determine which you like best. You can always requeen them if you decide to.


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## thomas

*All my hives are mixed*

Howdy i was reading this post and i had too add my two cents i have a hive that is a mix between italian and carni and they are great they have both traits which i like. And then i have a caucasin and i think italian mix that are very gentle and produce like crazy they were a late package but they did make enough honey to carry them thru this winter and well my other hive is mostly carni they are out when the rest are not and bringing in pollen every chance they can and my other are russian and carni mix they are good but this year i will know if they are good honey producers are not and last but not least it is the italain and russian cross very small cluster but have a temper and last is my carni and caucasian mix they are very gentle but time will tell this year about the honey crop. All together i have 12 hives and lost two but the oldest one made a good crop and maintain a good amount of brood during the drought.

TOM


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## WVbeekeeper

thomas said:


> All together i have 12 hives and lost two but the oldest one made a good crop and maintain a good amount of brood during the drought.
> 
> TOM


Where did you find a place to buy four hives in the last month?

http://208.69.121.208/forums/showthread.php?t=215167


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## Meerkat

Is there a way you can physically (and easily) tell the difference between the two ? Pictures are always good.


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## JustBob

Hey Joe,

Thanks for the correction. I was spelling it wrong and gave the bad info to a new beek last night. I wonder why some people are so quick to criticize.

JustBob


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## BjornBee

This may help....

http://members.aol.com/queenb95/


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## Meerkat

Thanks BB, helps a little, the fact that I can never find her highness is a different story


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## Aspera

I find it interesting that so many people describe carnies as excessive propolizers. Brother Adam went to great lengths to collect different strains of this bee, and described it as using almost no propolis. I suspect that the U.S. strains have become intermingled with caucasians and mellifera bees by breeders who assumed that all dark bees must are carniolan. Also, I do not think that all strains of carniolan are genetically distinct from linguistica. Based on what I have read, the two are much closer cousins to one another than either is to any other race. For this reason, I basically consider the two as a single group when selecting queens, and look at the breeders selection criteria instead. If color is the primary means by which a breeder defines their stock, then I don't buy them. If they use color as a "marker" for drones, I view it as a good thing.


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## thomas

*Got my hives from a freind*

WV Beekeeper since you asked about where i got four hives from in the last month thats easy. I have a friend that has three apiaries and we talked before the winter about me getting some from him he wanted to sell 100 but changed his mind. Then he called me and asked was i still interested in some hives and i said yeas and he brought them to me and placed them in the yard they are all full of bees they have been treated for mites and they each have two supers of honey on top. And boy they were out today in force along with my other hives so i hope this answer your question i am still learning and trying to make a small business out of it i am doing what i love to do and will continue to grow this year i am starting my second yard with the packages i am getting.

Tom


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## WVbeekeeper

Yes, that answers my question. I was just wanting to know because usually people wait until after winter to buy and sale colonies of bees. I just thought it was a little unusual.


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## thomas

*Wish i could have gotten more*

WV Beekeeper i wish that i could have gotten more his bees are a cross between buckfast and three banded italians they are good bees but a little bit of a temper. I went to your blog and read about your dead out and what you had written was the same for the ones i lost i keep a book of my girls and the perfomance they are doing and the queens. And the three queens in these hives did stop laying and did not build up good like my others. It seems to me that you have showed me that if my queens stop laying in the fall and the hive is starting to lose alot of workers that i need to buy me a replacement queen asap. I told you i was still learning and by reading your blog and then going back to my book you was right so now i have another plan for when my queens will not start back laying thank you.

Tom


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## WVbeekeeper

Thomas, I was thinking that since this guy wanted to sale 100 but changed his mind but then sold you four anyway that maybe he would sell me some to so I was wanting to get his and and his number so I could call him and find out if I could get some hives and if not right now maybe when I could get some because Virginia is only an hour and a half away from where I live and I wouldn't care if I had to drive farther than that because I lived in Hampton Roads last year which was like only five hours from here and wasn't too far away because I drove it all the time and wouldn't care to drive where your friend is to pick up a few hives so let me know how I can get ahold of him. Thanks.


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## WVbeekeeper

Thomas, just because your queen stops laying does not automatically mean
that you need to replace her. Some strains of bees will stop laying when the
incoming nectar and pollen stops or when there is a dearth. The queen in the
colony was the same queen that was originally in the colony. When I got the
colony it had swarmed a few times before I got it so it had a new queen that
year. After I got the colony I clipped a wing because I didn't have any paint
to mark her with. She would have been five years old next summer. I was
wanting to replace her with one of my own queens in the spring. If I would
have known that when she died she was planning on taking the colony with
here I would have replaced her last August but I was playing the odds and
lost. I'm glad you like the blog. Hearing people say they like it makes it worth
the effort. I'll be building up to 45 to 60 colonies this summer so keep an eye
on the blog cause I'm going to try to give lots of details and take a lot of
pictures.


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## NeilV

WVBeek,

I'm also really enjoying the blog. For me, its like more beekeeping lessons. Even have it in my favorites. I'll keep reading for sure.

I'd encourage everbody else to check it out.

Ndvan


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## kopeck

So for those of us that would like to try a different race, is there any issues with a colony of race "A" sitting right beside race "B"?

I wouldn't think there would be but it doesn't hurt to ask.

K


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## UTvolshype

kopeck said:


> So for those of us that would like to try a different race, is there any issues with a colony of race "A" sitting right beside race "B"?
> 
> I wouldn't think there would be but it doesn't hurt to ask.
> 
> K


If a strong Italian hive starts robbing the weaker carni or italian hives for that matter, will lose the robbing war. I keep my carni hives in a separate location. Most of the time when a flow is on it won't matter but in late summer or fall watch out for robbing.


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## franktrujillo

i too keep Carnolians and russian x carnolians they do a great job here in western colorado at 6000' elevation i just ordered (2) 3# packages of cordovan Italians and (2) 4# packages of russians and (2) 4# packages or carnolians.wanted to try and keep the Italians for there numbers


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