# alfalfa, do tell



## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

So they say. As long as it gets to bloom before it is cut. G


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Alfalfa pollen is lousy for nutrition, when I noticed them bringing in mostly khaki colored pollen, I put in pollen sub patties), but it's got lotsa nectar to go around. Most of my colonies are located very close (less than an 1/8th mile) to many many acres of alfalfa. One of the farmers is on top of hacking it down... one of them... not so much. I think he only cut twice this year. It's close to or is blooming again.

My best yard has an old alfalfa field (probably couple hundred acres or more) that hasn't been touched in a long long time. Lots of wild mustard, alfalfa, and whatever else.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

It blooms as it grows and then gets cut which it just did. I should really be talking to the farmer but he's a very busy guy. It got cut last time around July 1. Just guessing but that's a six-week cycle give or take a week. It's been a great year for grass mowing so I'd assume he's getting a lot of hay. One of the hives I weighed today was 175. Two supers and I'm pulling them asap. Too windy today and I was not expecting the honey to be there.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

It's my understanding that alfalfa is most nutritious if cut right at the beginning of bloom. Also, if cut during full bloom, alfalfa can be detrimental to horses. So, dairy farmers and horse-keepers prefer alfalfa hay cut before full bloom. I'm also told that cattle can graze standing alfalfa during bloom, but horses can get sick grazing alfalfa in bloom.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The colonies both did well in June. They were installed in mid-may and by July were booming and needing split. They produced brood faster than I could super up because the two colonies came with two deeps and a medium each (not enough). I started them both with four frames fully drawn combs. That helped a ton and is what got me in trouble so fast.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

had to post before I was finished..
Alfalfa honey is a good, light golden variety, much like clover, but nothing spectacular like Tupelo. Alfalfa produces a lot of nectar when it's well watered. It is a very popular honey here in the west. Hopefully, you have other good late and early bloomers in the neighborhood to back it up.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have not seen any alfalfa blooms that were not purple. If other varieties with different colored blooms exist, I have never seen them. They work alfalfa best if there are a lot of leaf cutter bees around. The leaf cutter bees set off the blooms and then the honey bees work them. If there are no leaf cutters around then the honey bees get slapped in the face when they trigger the blooms and they don't like to do that.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

There's an interstate highway with lots of yellow weeds very nearby. 
I've heard there is alfalfa with white flowers and that one or the other was no good for bees. 
Looked up the primary nectar sources for honey bees in Illinois and ...bum bum bummmm. Alfalfa is first thing on the list.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Michael look up yellow flowered alfalfa. Alfalfa flowers range in color from pale cream to bright yellow to the most common purple. If our Alfalfa blooms at the same time as our sainfoin the bees will not even touch it. As Michael said they do not like being slapped in the face. It can produce abundant nectar, but the pollen is poor.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I see an occasional yellow sport in alfalfa fields so assume that there are indeed cultivars that are of that color. The anther on the blossom is captive behind two petals on the blossom and when an insect attempts to go in thru those two petals, the anther is released and smacks the bees on the back of the head and literally pins the bee for a second while it wiggles out. I have watched it happen a number of times. The bees learn to work the blossom from the sides and avoid tripping the anther and getting smacked or pollinating the flower.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Medicago falcate is yellow flowered alfalfa. It has been bred into Medicago sativa in an attempt to increase drought hardiness,and stand persistence. The pale colored sports are proof that the cultivar you are growing has falcate in its ancestry.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

aunt betty said:


> There's an interstate highway with lots of yellow weeds very nearby.
> .


indiscriminate "yellow weeds " make me very nervous. 
look up "bitter weed", & be sure if that is your local "yellow weed " or not.
I don't know what you could do about it, other than not be blind sided by the result.
maybe its yellow alfalfa. 

http://essmextension.tamu.edu/plants/plant/western-bitterweed/


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

in years past in this part of the country alfalfa often made a really large late summer crop of good quality honey. but that was in a time when alfalfa was mainly grown by smaller dairy farms and it was a long term crop that lasted for many years. farmers would only cut it a couple of times a year and often it would not be cut at end of season but bloom late into summer/early fall. 

however, that isn't the case anymore. most of the dairy operations are huge and alfalfa is cut as soon as it gets about a foot or two tall so you seldom see it in bloom. the fields no longer have the long term life expectancy but they just rotate to corn or sorghum for sillage for a year or so. and the machinery they use now is so efficient that the operations harvest in about any weather and can make square miles of alfalfa disappear in an afternoon. 25-30 years ago it would take them days to harvest the same amount of ground. about the only time i see alfalfa bloom now is at the end of the year in a field that is intended to be herbicided and plowed under.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

tech - I understand the issue with bitterweed and dairy farming, didn't know about the issue with sheep, but is there a concern with bee keeping.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Last year I read an article some where on line, I think it was ABJ, about the persistant horrible ness of "bitterweed contaminated" honey. We were traveling at the time, I dont remember where, but in that area, the roadsides were thick with bitterweeds. They are somewhat unusual in this era of sprayed pastures, but we had plenty of them when I was growing up.
I cant seem to search & find the original article, but here are some links I did find ...

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?246569-Bad-tasting-honey

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?220263-Nasty-Honey

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?283860-Honey-flavors-and-flowers-to-avoid

One of the recommendations was to taste every frame before you spin it out. The magazine article claimed even a tiny bit would ruin the whole batch. ... CE


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

tech - thanks mate, learned something I would have never considered.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

So far I learned the WHY I got so much honey part. Why?
It was too wet to cut it and it went to seed back in late-June and early-July.
It was like tall grass that went to seed and I had no idea what it was.
The pheasant hunter in me was sad when it got cut down.
Am a city-slicker that knows very little about farming. They grow plants in dirt or something.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Alfalfa is important to us here. There are several fields within about a half mile from 5 of our hives.
Usually they get cut all at once but this year the farmers have been rotating the cuts so that at least one field is always blooming. The bees love it!!

Also, this year the honey is a little lighter, something is mixed with the alfalfa, and it has a little more lemony flavor..... really superb honey. A good year. 

You'll love the alfalfa fields.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> They work alfalfa best if there are a lot of leaf cutter bees around. The leaf cutter bees set off the blooms and then the honey bees work them. If there are no leaf cutters around then the honey bees get slapped in the face when they trigger the blooms and they don't like to do that.


That's interesting information. I sometimes put out leaf cutter boards, so I will watch for that correlation.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> look up yellow flowered alfalfa

I've never seen that before. Interesting. All I've seen has been purple.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

I have a 144 acre field of alfalfa across the road. unfortunately the dairy farmer who cuts it does not let it go to bloom. Its cut three times a year and put up wet. These new bailers can handle the high moisture better then the old bailers. I put up alfalfa for years and Alfalfa has more protein and vitamins for livestock if its cut at 1/2 or 3/4 bloom and sun cured. But you cant tell these farmers that. All they care about is how many times they can cut.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

lowhog said:


> I have a 144 acre field of alfalfa across the road. unfortunately the dairy farmer who cuts it does not let it go to bloom. Its cut three times a year and put up wet. These new bailers can handle the high moisture better then the old bailers. I put up alfalfa for years and Alfalfa has more protein and vitamins for livestock if its cut at 1/2 or 3/4 bloom and sun cured. But you cant tell these farmers that. All they care about is how many times they can cut.


I know a couple hay farmers and they all sun-dry the cut crop. I'm going to have to run out to Gifford, Illinois and ask these people if they want bees now. Thanks for all the info and I pray to God they don't ask me to help bail hay. (they tried before)


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

aunt betty said:


> I know a couple hay farmers and they all sun-dry the cut crop. I'm going to have to run out to Gifford, Illinois and ask these people if they want bees now. Thanks for all the info and I pray to God they don't ask me to help bail hay. (they tried before)


The Bailing isn't the problem............... Its the *from the ground to the barn* that makes me cringe twice a year..................inch:


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

biggraham610 said:


> The Bailing isn't the problem............... Its the *from the ground to the barn* that makes me cringe twice a year..................inch:


 The farmers around here are so poor, lol. Some of the richest ground in the world but they'll tell you how poor they are while sitting in a brand new GMC diesel 4x4 with the engine running on tax-free fuel.

If I work for one they'll want to pay me in pesos.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

They all use round bailers or the giant square bailers in this area. None of the hay around here is handled by hand anymore.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

The Cattle Farmers do the same here Hog. I bale for horses......and Horses.........and Horses........and Horses................


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

There are some amish farmers here that do old school bales.
The hay is for horses. No dairy cows here at all. 
Not as many horsies as I'd like to see. Need more hay fields.
The horse people are all in Vermillion County, Illinois and over in Parke County, Indiana.
Its corn n beans and beans n corn for a few hundred miles in any direction. 
Pockets of horse-people in the river bottoms. Un-tillable ground. 

There is a town called Flatville near here and it's flat as any precision-leveled rice field in Arkansas.
I will be looking for hay fields from now on. Thanks everybody. I appreciate you all sharing the knowledge.

Maybe I'd find some hay fields over by Fisher, Illinois by the Sangamon [email protected], Got any contacts in Fisher still?


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

Good luck Aunt betty I am in the same area as you , pickins are slim , like the honey crops


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

biggraham610 said:


> The Cattle Farmers do the same here Hog. I bale for horses......and Horses.........and Horses........and Horses................


Years ago when my son and daughter lived at home we had hay burners. I had a Allis Chalmers small square bailer. My wife would drive the tractor and the kids and I were on the hay racks behind the bailer stacking. Most years we put up 2000-2500 bails. I think most Amish around here have someone come in and custom round bail for them or they buy there hay.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I cut rake and bale by myself. I sell hay out of the field but end up having the pleasure if putting up between 1000-1200 a year by myself, if you don't count wifey driving the truck. I love the smell of fresh hay, I don't mind the 3 days of tractor work, but slinging those bales* after *3 days on the tractor is brutal. Didn't seem it took the toll like it does now 20 yrs ago. G


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

or 45...


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

It's a pretty rare event to see hay bales around here. The small amount baled are round ones for horses. The straw normally is square baled in those giant ones that are lifted mechanically. If see small square bale can guess it's Amish or Mennonite. 

Dairy is now 1000 plus head operations. That alfalfa seldom hits ground let alone gets baled. Chopped right into trailers while both trailer and chopping equipment is moving 20 mph across field.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

Aunt Betty
Have you ever looked straight north of Danville. There use to be a big section of crp ground that covered a section or two that I'd imagine would be good option if it still exists.


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

Alfalfa is one of my best honey crops. I am located deep in ranching country. Alfalfa is a major Hay crop. Here's what I have learned from my experience, talking with farmers, and other beekeepers. 
They say the protein content of the hay diminishes rapidly after the bloom starts. While this is true, it isn't as drastic as some farmers make it out to be. Like from 18% down to 12% if cut at first bloom vs 70%. Regardless, this is why most farmers cut early. The horse and dairy guys seem to cut pre-bloom whereas the beef guys aim for 10% bloom but are often late. Around here, a few guys farm for a lot of the ranches. They might start a little early but some fields always get cut late because they get behind. Also, some guys grow for tonnage. You want to be friends with them. 
One rancher told me he always lets one cutting reach full bloom because it encourages more root growth. Another farmer put it a different way: He told me they can usually get about 17 cuttings before re-planting. I might have the numbers wrong, but basically if you take 4 cuttings, you will need to re-plant sooner than if you only take 2-3. 
My beekeeping mentor mentioned that 2-3 cuttings used to be more common but now it leans much more towards 3-4. There are probably 2 reasons for this. One might be trends in nutrition. The other probably has to do with larger implements and faster processing. 
Another thing on the nutrition front, Alfalfa is very rich. If cows get in to graze when it is green-pre-bloom, it can make them so bloated they literally need to be popped, or so I have been told. So if it is grazed, it is usually dry-land and the cows are let in after bloom, at least around here. 
Ok, So as for the nectaries. Soil Moisture is definitely a factor, especially for the dryland and crp stuff. Lots of beekeepers have told me hot days (95 seems optimal) with cool nights really get the flow going. I have also been told that a little bit of stress gets the bloom going fast and the nectaries active. For what it is worth, our best flow seems to be just before the second cutting.
In good conditions, the bees can definetly put away 30-40lbs in a week, really wonderful stuff.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Apricot - nice 30 lbs a week.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

well the 144 acre field across the road that has been cut three times has started blooming. I'm not sure how much nectar the bees can get from it at this time of year?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

There you go at 30 lbs per week.
Now how strong a hive you have?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

a few weeks ago, and for a good 2 weeks, my pollen traps contained only pollen in shades of white, light tan and lots of it. The pollen was very bitter.
Anyone know if it could have been alfalfa pollen? or maybe chicory?


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

beepro said:


> There you go at 30 lbs per week.
> Now how strong a hive you have?


My hives are very strong with full populations in both. But I'm not sure how much nectar will be on the alfalfa bloom this late in the year with the sun falling south and the shorter days.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

We still have some alfalfa in bloom too. Yesterday afternoon I looked it over real good. There was not a bee of any kind to be found. Our nights have been down to 32 a couple of times and the highest low temperatures have been in the mid 40s. Daytime highs have ranged from low 60s to tomorrow's forecast high of 87 degrees. We still have some Sainfoin in bloom too. The bees are all over it. I have not been impressed with the bees usage of Alfalfa so far. Since we planted several acres of it this year, I sure hope next year is different.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Dave this is the first time this field has gone to bloom. Its been cut before bloom three times. I'll keep checking it this week to see if any bees are hitting it. I'm not sure if it will yield any nectar this time of year. Weather forecast calls for 60's for three days then going back up into the 70's


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, all you can do is to put some hives there to test them out.
In 2-3 days you should see some new nectar if the flow is still on.
Take some before and after pics for your own id. Should be good otherwise
need to feed to bring them up to weight before the cold winter months.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Alfalfa pollen has a balanced AA profile, extremely nutritious and it is a plant that can be available through out the entire season. Look at that field as a potential high quality feed source


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Ian said:


> Alfalfa pollen has a balanced AA profile, extremely nutritious and it is a plant that can be available through out the entire season. Look at that field as a potential high quality feed source


Do you know if it's bitter to the taste?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Comment earlier stating it was a poor feed source. Not true, one of the best


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Beepro, the 144 acre alfalfa field is across the gravel and 300 feet from my hives as the crow flies. Both my colonies are in two deeps and a medium. Hive one is full as it can get. hive two has the top medium 8 of the ten frames fully drawn out and are filling. I have the feeder on hive two filled with 2:1. They can use another 30 pound gain.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Ian said:


> Comment earlier stating it was a poor feed source. Not true, one of the best


That was my comment based on:



> Honey Yield, Nectar Secretion, And Pollen Production:
> 
> Vansell (1941 ) showed that some alfalfa cultivars yield more honey than others. Loper and Waller (1970) showed that when several clonal lines of alfalfa were presented in bouquets to honey bees, the bees consistently showed preference for certain ones. Several terpenoid compounds have been identified in alfalfa varieties (Loper et al. 1971, Loper 1972). The significance of these compounds in honey bee behavior is under investigation. Loper et al. (1971) identified one of the aromatic compounds as ocimene. Its true significance in bee attractiveness has not been determined. If an attractant factor can be isolated, its use in the breeding and selection for cultivars with greater attractiveness to pollinators could become quite important.
> 
> ...


And here:
http://www.tvalfalfaseed.org/resource/files/Honey Bee Pollination of Alfalfa.pdf


> Even though alfalfa pollen has a relatively high protein content, it is a poor source of nutrition for honey bees. When honey bees only have alfalfa on which to forage, colony strength declines both in the field and in laboratory feeding studies.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Alfalfa has an AA profile similar to clover , balanced and very high Crude Protien, what else is there to consider ?
Fats, vitamins , accompanying nectar

What AA are they referring to as limiting ?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Ian, I'm just regurgitating the information there. I don't really know if it's valid. I've read it several places. Truth be told unless it is the ONLY thing blooming, chances are the bees will be collecting other pollen as well and the blend would maybe counteract any trouble alfalfa pollen is supposed to cause. I don't see them bringing much of it in even when the flowers are blooming. They're certainly bringing in nectar, just not much pollen from it. I don't really have any experience to say that my bees don't do well near alfalfa because they certainly do. But I'm not surrounded by two miles of alfalfa. If I was I probably won't have a single hive left as they'd have swarmed themselves out by now with all that nectar.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Hives do very well on alfalfa. I'll do the math tonight and look to see if there is a limiting AA but as far as I have always understood it's a balanced profile. Perhaps it's deficient in Vit?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Don't regurgitate information. Know understand then tell.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Ian said:


> Don't regurgitate information. Know understand then tell.


Well if you crank the numbers and find that it's all good, I'll certainly believe you. I just haven't read one single source that said alfalfa was a great/complete pollen source of bees. I figure if it's a one off that's one thing. But I've seen it many more than those those two places, I cannot find the one I read that had better "explanation" of the issue with it. Maybe it's all linked back to some old study that isn't valid? Will look forward to hearing what you come up with!

Or perhaps it's that honey bees don't like tripping the flowers and so it's assumed that because bees may be hesitant to use the flower that it isn't good for them?

From Wikipedia (hate to site it, but...)


> Western honey bee colonies may suffer protein stress when working alfalfa only, due to shortage of one of the amino acids comprising the pollen protein, isoleucine.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

There we go, isoleucine 
I'll check my literature and math on that


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Using histidine as the reference AA my values show isoleucine as balanced 
I'll look up other protien analysis values for alfalfa
Show me yours


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

OK, I appreciate the info, regurgitated or annecdotal.

Since.if I want.it, I have to.plant.it ( include.it.in.my herbal.cattle/bee forage.coctail ) wjich variety should.I.look.for? ( I planted.3.different varieties.of.buckwheat that bees did not care for before some one pointed out "man-cann" as the one bees actually work  : (


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Now buckwheat is lacking nutrition all around,


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

duplicate


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I appreciate the time and the insight, Ian, sounds like nothing to be worried about. Especially where bees are bringing in a mix of pollen like they are most times here.

Thanks!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Your sources are published so they have numbers behind it. Would be interesting to see their values


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I'll have to do some better digging. Some other things I read said that it varies a lot, so maybe it's good some years and not others? Or weather/moisture/soil plays a big role?


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

OK, I appreciate the info, regurgitated or annecdotal.

Since.if I want.it, I have to.plant.it ( include.it.in.my herbal.cattle/bee forage.coctail ) wjich variety should.I.look.for? ( I planted.3.different varieties.of.buckwheat that bees did not care for before some one pointed out "man-cann" as the one bees actually work  : (


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jwcarlson said:


> I'll have to do some better digging. Some other things I read said that it varies a lot, so maybe it's good some years and not others? Or weather/moisture/soil plays a big role?


Ya the problem with sitting here sticking numbers to the equation is that we are generally using old published values from areas unlike our own. Generalized all the same though . And in some cases irrelevant as you stated because of the bees tendency to collect diverse floral sources. 
I'll get my values tonight and maybe my information is wrong


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Using Histidine as the AA reference, the nutritional values I have for alfalfa pollen shows a balanced high crude protein profile right across, methionine being on the edge of limiting. 
Accompany nectar with that and Alfalfa is a dynamite forage source. 

If you find nutritional values showing Isoleucine as limiting I'd like to see them. All my references show otherwise.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Do bee like one kind of alfalfa over another? Which kind is best for bees?


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