# Dead bee question



## Robert Hicks (Sep 28, 2005)

All these dead bees being brushed out.

It kind of makes me think of a floor filled with poisoned spilled thumbtacks.

How long does bee venom last in a dead and decaying bee?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't know, but I've never been stung by a dead one. The ones you have to watch are the ones that look dead but are really just cold.


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## Robert Hicks (Sep 28, 2005)

Let me rephrase...

How long does it take for a bee body to break down to where you no longer worry about walking over the area with bare feet?

What do bkeepers do with dead bees? Just brush them off the bottom board, right?


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I don't know how long venom lasts, or if a dead bee could "sting" a person. I've heard stories about dead bees stinging humans, but I've assumed they were as likely to be tall tales as true stories.

I just brush away the dead bees on the bottom boards. Something -- probably those mice or skunks or possums -- seems to make the dead bees vanish pretty quickly. I also kill a few bees for personal reasons, such as dissecting them to check for tracheal mites. Those dead bees don't just get brushed away.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

I don't have an answer but would think it would have a lot to do with the environment...wet, dry, etc. I can't imagine that if wet it would be a problem after more than a couple days, besides the thought of grinding my feet in rotten bee carcases.

One of my kids did get "stung" by a dried wasp they found in a window and were playing with. It probably died and dried with the stinger out, but the venom was still potent enough. I haven't seen a dead bee with her stinger out, though.

-rick (who, yes, needs to clean out the window sills more often







)


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## Robert Hicks (Sep 28, 2005)

Here's what Gene Robinson had to say...

"Rob,
Venom can last a long time even in a dead bee. And a stinger from a dead bee can actually penetrate human flesh if the position is just right. It wouldn't be a "full-blown" sting, but it is worth exercising caution."


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## Toni Bee (Jun 14, 2005)

OK, I'm here to confess that I got stung by a dead honeybee this summer. I was trying to take a photo of the fascinating variety of native bees that decided to croak in the vicinity of my hives, and I lined them up next to a dead honeybee for comparison (photo is at http://www.tonitoni.org/images/050628_natives.jpg). I had set a spare dead worker bee next to my wrist, which got stung when I set it down on her. I had chosen fresh bees for my photo shoot, so have nothing to add on shelf life of venom.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Bullseye said he got stung by a dead one and go an infection. Maybe he could elaborate.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I have no doubt you could get pricked by the sting of a dead bee, but I'm not sure how much "stinging" sensation it would produce. Even if the venom is still present and hasn't degraded within the carcass of the bee, muscle contractions pump the venom. Obviously, the muscles of dead bees won't pump venom, so if a person does get pricked by the sting of a dead bee, the amount of venom must be far less than the amount a person would receive from a live bee.

Like any other wound, a puncture wound from the sting of a dead bee could get infected, I imagine. In fact, if the sting of a dead bee is brittle (like all other parts of dead insects), it might be more likely to break off in human skin and cause an infection.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

A lot of the stings I get result in a small pin-head sized spot of infection where the sting entered my skin. Nothing huge, but a small white spot that opens (with scratching), drains, and heals quickly.

Bees don't bother to sterilize their stingers before planting them in you. Part of the venom action involves the breakdown of tissue too, so you've got a bit of liquified tissue gurry with a bit of bacteria floating around in it, under a thin layer of skin. Perfect conditions.

>the amount of venom must be far less than the amount a person would receive from a live bee

Great hypothesis Jon. Makes sense. Why don't you perform an experiment and let us know if it holds water









George-


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Actually, strange as it sounds, I'll grab a few dead bees this weekend and see if I can receive some sort of sting from them. I'll let you know what I find out on Monday if not before. I won't be able to get live bees (unless the weather here warms up considerably), but I've had enough stings in the past to have some idea of the comparison.

Thanks for the idea, George!


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>I've had enough stings in the past to have some idea of the comparison.

For the purposes of this experiment, that is sufficient control for me









Heck, I might even try it myself. Better than a sharp stick in the eye I always say.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

So, here it is, guys. I grabbed a bunch of dead bees and tried various things to make them "sting" me. It's not a fully controlled, scientific experiment, but I think the results are worth noting.

First, I grabbed a bunch of dead bees from around the entrance and on the bottom board. Examining them, none of them had died with her sting exposed, but I figured that wasn't part of the question, so I tried to replicate "natural" circumstances. I tried rolling them under some pressure in my hands, crushing them with my hands, and stepping on them. In my hands, I did feel a couple of their "stingers," but nothing worse than getting slight pricks from needles or fine slivers. I didn't feel any pricks on the soles of my feet.

Then, I tried some deliberate "stings." Starting with dead, dry and crispy bees, I used forceps to carefully extend the stings of several bees, and I even removed the stings from a few to manipulate them more precisely. I could get them to stick into the skin on the back of my hands (I figured that was relatively thin, smooth skin so the effects might be most noticeable there), but every one of them felt like a needle or a sliver with none of the "hot" sensation of the venom in a sting. For an explanation, I went the extra step of dissecting the venom sacs -- guess what? When the bee dries up, the liquid portion of the venom does, too. In other words, even if some of the steroids and proteins that compose the "active" ingredients of the venom remain, the liquid to transfer those ingredients is gone.

Then I tried some frozen bees -- ones that had frozen to death outside the hives and hadn't ever had a chance to dessicate. Again, I could feel the physical sensations of being pricked by the stings, but nothing "hot" about them. I did leave a couple stuck in my hand for about 5 minutes each, and eventually got a very slight reaction from them (the skin around them turned pink).

For comparison, I dissected the stings and venom glands from a few bees that I had found alive and frozen less than one hour before I tried the experiments. Again, these stings produced no "hot" sensations. I went the next step; using forceps, I manually pumped the venom sacs, still attached to the stings that I had impaled in my skin, to deliberately inject the venom. I did get some true stinging sensations using this method, but even this produced far less reaction than a few live bees that I let warm up and sting me.

To sum it up, you might get stuck or pricked by the sting of a dry and crispy dead bee, but (by my definitions) it's not a sting. If the bee has remained frozen since its death and hasn't dried out, you could have some minor effects if you do get "stung" and don't remove the sting in a reasonable amount of time. You might also have some stinging sensations if you take the time to manually perform the actions that a bee performs through muscular contractions when she stings you. I suppose a person with an extreme sensitivity to bee stings could have a reaction from any of these situations, but just getting the stings to stick into the skin is more difficult than you might imagine. The angles have to be right, and it takes a fair amount of concentrated force to really drive the sting deep into the skin.

Overall, the circumstances and actions that would have to occur for a person to be stung by a dead bee are extremely unlikely, and, even if everything lines up, the effects are far less than the effects of stings from living bees.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Jon, I applaud your efforts and your dedication and I'll accept your findings on the matter of getting stung by dead bees, which I summarize as "not impossible, could happen, but not too likely", as the definitive work on the subject, until such time as it is replaced with a more rigorous investigation... which I hope never happens!

The best thing about your research is that it didn't cost me or any other tax payers any money.

George-


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## Toni Bee (Jun 14, 2005)

Well. I guess that dead worker was not pushing up as many daisies as I thought! Thanks, Kieck. 

I actually appreciate the peace of mind, since I sweep dead bees off of my roof into the yard below all the time.

[ January 12, 2006, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Toni Bee ]


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## macmcp (Sep 18, 2005)

I don't know if this is the place to do this but I'm a new bee keeper with one hive which I bought from a guy in my local club. I was a scardy cat about going into the hive but I realise I shouldn't have been. I live in the chicago area and when the weather turned cold a couple of months ago I didn't see the bees any more and I thought ok leave them alone til spring... on warm days I didn't see any bees and finally decided to have a look and found all the bees dead... My first question is the frames where brood should be, the combs are black about 1/2 full of something shinny and there is no capping and no brood . I have seen pictures of black comb but in some articles where most of the frames are cream colored which is the prefered color I presume and there will be one frame of black comb uncapped like mine only differnce is I have 6 or 8 frames of black and two fames of cream colored...I'm thinking this is foul brood and I bought a pig in a poke I got the hive in may or June and I did take pictures of the tops of the frames and in retrospect I now can look at the pictures and tell which ones are the black ones and there is no change to now. I'm planning to start over with a nuc in spring with sc and shallow supers as I've read about here. I have a question for mike bush ..How long have you been doing small cell (?yrs ?)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My first question is the frames where brood should be, the combs are black about 1/2 full of something shinny and there is no capping and no brood.

Probably 1/2 full of honey.

>I have seen pictures of black comb but in some articles where most of the frames are cream colored which is the prefered color I presume and there will be one frame of black comb uncapped like mine only differnce is I have 6 or 8 frames of black and two fames of cream colored...

Black is the color of brood comb after it's been used. That's perfectly normal. White is the color of new comb that's never had brood in it. That's perfectly normal. Cream or yellow is the color of comb that's never had brood in it but had a lot of traffic. That's perfectly normal. Brown is the color of newer comb thats only had a generation or two of brood in it. That's also perferctly normal.

>I'm thinking this is foul brood

Here's what foulbrood looks like:
http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/pest&disease/slide11.htm 

Usually the cappings are sunken and pierced and have a greasy look. But sometimes old brood comb with chilled brood can get to looking this way. You can do a rope test:
http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/pest&disease/slide16.htm 

Or a Holts milk test (try a search on here for "Holts milk test") or you can send some of the brood in for testing. But if you don't see some brood that in any way resembles this, I'd have doubts about AFB being the problem.

Starvation (if there are no stores touching the cluster) would be a possiblilty as are Varroa and Tracheal mites. Look on the bottom for Varroa mites. Little purple dots a little bigger than a period. You'll almost always find some if you look hard enough and know what they look like, but if it's Varroa you'll probably be able to find thousands and thousands.

>I'm planning to start over with a nuc in spring with sc and shallow supers as I've read about here.

I like mediums, myself.







but then I like eight frame mediums even better.

>I have a question for mike bush ..How long have you been doing small cell (?yrs ?)

I started in 2001. I believe Dee Lusby started in 1988. She has not treated in all that time.

I would be sure to learn to monitor the Varroa mites. Learn to use a sticky board or a read the tray in a SBB. Learn to do a sugar roll. Learn to uncap drone cells and find mites. Even while regressing they can be a problem and if you know they are you can do some drone trapping or powdered sugar or something. If you don't monitor the mites, you can suddenly end up with all your bees dead and you never saw it coming. Been there. Done that.

Once they are regressed and you haven't found any signifcant number of Varroa for several years, then, maybe, you can just forget about them.

[ January 14, 2006, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Michael Bush ]


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Reading Kieck's testing stings of dead bees made me think that there my be some value in trying to anesthetise the stinger contractions as part of remedy for getting stung. If you had for example a small can of car starter fluid that is ether, maybe a quick shot would stop the venom pump, and maybe give us more time to try to remove the stinger more carefully.


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## macmcp (Sep 18, 2005)

Thank you michael, as always very helpful. If I could figure out how to do pictures I'd put some on to discuss...I remember seeing in the past how to do pictures. I did try powdered sugar and also some vicks vaporub, I only saw a few varroas. Don't know about trecheal mites. Mediums 6 1/2 inches thats what I ment to say. 

tks mac


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you post the pictures somewhere else, like Yahoo or one of the other free locations, they you can just post the link.


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