# All natural weed killer (say no to Round-Up)



## Hambone

That's what I use. 9% vinegar. Never added the salt though.


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## Terry Small Jr

Derek, where do you find 9% vinegar? I've only seen 5% in the stores around here.


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## Hambone

All the grocery stores here carry the 5 & 9%. They also make a 20% but it has been recommended by to many popular organic programs and the price of it has skyrocketed. Some organic programs have backed off the 20% and now recommend the 10%. We were talking about the vinegar here a while back and MapMan recommended some stuff that you can get at a camera store. Let me find that link.

Here it is.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229069&highlight=vinegar


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## wannabeekeeper

I've used straight white vinagar on a hot day and within an hour the weed is DEAD!


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## Ian

Adding salt to your soil isnt really good for the soil, 
I would say roundup would do less harm to your soil health than that of your treatment.
Dont forget about everything else that lives in your soil,


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## waynesgarden

As a 40 year organic gardener and one-time organic farmer, I'd also say ditch the salt and just use the vinegar if necessary. 

Glyophosphate has been shown to be extremely lethal to amphibians. Liver damage in rats were also seen after brief exposure. If you don't care a hoot about frogs, rodents, etc, perhaps if you have pregnant women around, I'd also say ditch the Roundup, or at least look at some of the recent research showing high levels of premature births and miscarriages observed among female farmers in Ontario using glyphosate/Roundup. An Exploratory Analysis of the Effect of Pesticide Exposure on the Risk of Spontaneous Abortion in an Ontario Farm Population. Studies show that "after only eighteen hours of exposure at low concentrations, large proportions of human placenta began to die." (Gilles-Eric Seralini from the University of Caen, France.)

I've seen absolutely nothing would suggest Roundup is "less harmful" for soil, amphibian or human life. But maybe that's just me. I try not to guess about it. We all make our own decisions based on what we know, what we believe, what we wish were true or what we guess about. By way of full disclosure, I will admit to having an extreme hatred of Monsanto but that's for another discussion.

My first choice is to lay down a thick layer of mulch around the hive, just as I do in the garden, and not worry about weeds. The only downside is you have to be careful where you set down the smoker.

Wayne


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## bhfury

Derek said:


> All the grocery stores here carry the 5 & 9%. They also make a 20% but it has been recommended by to many popular organic programs and the price of it has skyrocketed. Some organic programs have backed off the 20% and now recommend the 10%. We were talking about the vinegar here a while back and MapMan recommended some stuff that you can get at a camera store. Let me find that link.
> 
> Here it is.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229069&highlight=vinegar


Here in Farmington we could only find the 5% and it did work worth a hoot an the weeds. :no:


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## BGhoney

I tried straight vinegar on some weeds around the yard, they loved it, never looked so green.


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## bhfury

BGhoney said:


> I tried straight vinegar on some weeds around the yard, they loved it, never looked so green.


They must know my weeds


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## BEES4U

Here is some additional data cited by another source:

Get ahold of 10% vinegar (not the 5% that you often see in the grocery stores). You can also use 20%, but it costs more and the results may not be worth the difference. Put in an ounce of orange oil (citrus oil) along with a teaspoon of liquid soap. (Avoid the "germicide" type soap products as they are no good for your yard, much less putting that toxic substance on your own skin.) [Orange oil comes from the oils of citrus fruits. TKO is a commercial product, but there are places that sell orange oil, especially organic gardening centers. Orange oil, by the way, is a great cleaner and solvent and ant/bug killer. It is all natural. Many products now contain orange oil along with their chemicals.] So, what you end up with here is this bottle of high acidic vinegar with a bit of orange oil and liquid soap. When you spray it or pour it on a weed on a hot and sunny day, it will burn the weed. Often, the weed will fry in a few hours. Yet, it doesn't hurt your yard or plants or trees like so many commercial chemicals out there.
Ernie


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## Hambone

I use the orange oil all the time. It does work great for ants. Drench the mound and the whole mound is dead with in hours.


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## NC-Bee-Dude

Hey guys! 

I didn't know vinegar, just on its own, would do the trick. I'll give that a whirl. 

As far as the salt is concerned, I live next to a creek and cannot use chemicals like brush killer or weed killer which could contaminate the water. The previous owner of my house allowed a strand of bamboo to get waaaaaay out of hand, so I read that water conditioner salt (which is big chunks of salt) would kill it. Well, it didn't kill it, but it stopped the new stalks from coming up for months. I suppose its less hazardous to the environment than something churned up in some factory. Bamboo......ugh! Maybe I should get a panda next? :s 

By the way, I remembered that I saw that salt/vinegar weed killer tip on a PBS station, an organic farming show. I tried it afterwards and it did work.

I'll try the vinegar this weekend and try to report back with my findings. Hopefully the smell won't drive my bees into frenzy mode!


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## BEES4U

Bamboo is in thr grass family and it's salt tolerant.
Ernie


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## Hambone

> I'll try the vinegar this weekend and try to report back with my findings. Hopefully the smell won't drive my bees into frenzy mode!


I use it all around my hives and it never seems to bother them. I do add the soap to my mix to make sure it sticks good. I used to add the orange oil to but the price of that stuff has gotten to high, so I just use it on the ants.


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## bhfury

BEES4U said:


> Here is some additional data cited by another source:
> 
> Get ahold of 10% vinegar (not the 5% that you often see in the grocery stores). You can also use 20%, but it costs more and the results may not be worth the difference. Put in an ounce of orange oil (citrus oil) along with a teaspoon of liquid soap. (Avoid the "germicide" type soap products as they are no good for your yard, much less putting that toxic substance on your own skin.) [Orange oil comes from the oils of citrus fruits. TKO is a commercial product, but there are places that sell orange oil, especially organic gardening centers. Orange oil, by the way, is a great cleaner and solvent and ant/bug killer. It is all natural. Many products now contain orange oil along with their chemicals.] So, what you end up with here is this bottle of high acidic vinegar with a bit of orange oil and liquid soap. When you spray it or pour it on a weed on a hot and sunny day, it will burn the weed. Often, the weed will fry in a few hours. Yet, it doesn't hurt your yard or plants or trees like so many commercial chemicals out there.
> Ernie


Ernie - You don't use salt?


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## bhfury

Has anyone check to see if Smart and Final carries the higher percentage vineger? Not that we have one here in New Mexico, but I'll check on my next trip back to Bakersfield for my Bacon Lovers Ice Cream :doh:


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## NC-Bee-Dude

Derek said:


> I do add the soap to my mix to make sure it sticks good.


Derek, how much soap do you use? I can use something like Dawn or Joy?



bhfury said:


> Has anyone check to see if Smart and Final carries the higher percentage vineger? Not that we have one here in New Mexico, but I'll check on my next trip back to Bakersfield for my Bacon Lovers Ice Cream :doh:


BHFury: That ice cream sounds.....fattening? Haha! I assume that's not a hot seller during Hanukkah!


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## Hambone

About a teaspoon per gallon. I just give it a good one one-thousand count. Dawn is what I use.

Another plus of using the vinegar. It only cost about $2 per gallon.


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## Hambone

bhfury said:


> I'll check on my next trip back to Bakersfield for my Bacon Lovers Ice Cream


That's a man that has his priorities in line. :thumbsup:


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## waynesgarden

Here's a source for higher percentage vinegar: 

Marshall Grain Company

No connection to them or their products. I still would rather use mulch. (Lay carboard down first.)

Wayne


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## bhfury

Derek said:


> That's a man that has his priorities in line. :thumbsup:



Always thinking......


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## USCBeeMan

Is it just me or anyone else getting the munchies for potato chips or fries???


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## Countryboy

Vinegar - acidic. Salt - alkaline. Put them together and they would neutralize.

Salt by itself controls weeds, if it is salty enough. Whenever we make homemade ice cream, we always dump the salty ice water on the asparagus to control weeds, since asparagus doesn't mind the salt.

A lot of fertilizers are salts. Put them on too thick, and they burn the plants. But a little salt encourages growth. We have acidic soils here, so salts are good for soil ph too.


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## Almond Grower

I use Gramoxone (Paraquat) and Goal (Oxyflurofen) to burn down weeds in the almonds in late winter along with Simazine and Surflan (Oryzalin) for pre-emergence control which lasts for several months.

In August I use Round-up to get the entire orchard floor clean before harvest. For the last several years I have been having a problem with Nut Grass and White Clover which are resistant to Round-up. I have had fair results on these two tough weeds with a newer herbicide, Rely (Glufosinate-ammonium) which is more expensive than Round-up.

One thing is for sure, herbicides are very expensive and I have to use more every year as the weeds are becoming resistant.

There is no way I would use salt because even low levels of sodium is death on almonds.


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## NeilV

FWIW, table salt (NaCl) is not alkaline. It's Ph neutral.


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## BEES4U

Round-up:
Here is what really worked on Johnson grass and it's rhizomes with one application!
Mix one tablespoon of ammonium sulfate per gallon of Round - up.
Ammonium nitrate worked better, but it's now called calcium nitrate and it will clog your sprayer nozzels. You can see the leaves curl and dieing within hours of spraying on a hot day. if you can spray early in the morning the plants stomates are open and the spray material can get into the plant easier.
Ernie


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## BEES4U

FWIW, table salt (NaCl) is not alkaline. It's Ph neutral. 

The ions , Na plus, and Cl negative, can really screw up your soil chemistry and structure for a very long time.
The Roman Empire was reported to salt the soil of their vanquished and conguered subjects with salt!
Her in the west we are very no on adding these two ions to our soil because of our low precipitation and growing crops on ancient sea floors and that's why we use a lot of gypsum and acid rendering fertilizers.
Ernie


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## Ian

To add salt to a weed treatment to prevent plant growth isnt good for the soil, regardless how much vinegar you use. Once the salt is mixed in the soil, it either has to wash away, or get taken away in plant form. There isnt alot of plant we like to grow that favours salty soils,
All I am saying, is ditch the salt in your treatment, it isnt going to help the plant that you are trying to grow


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## fr0sty

if it's just a small area, maybe boiling water?


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## cow pollinater

Propane torch... Fun for the whole family...At least fun for the boys of all ages in the family...


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## bhfury

cow pollinater said:


> Propane torch... Fun for the whole family...At least fun for the boys of all ages in the family...


dontcha know playin' with matches will cause ya to wet the bed


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## cow pollinater

I hadn't heard anything about wetting the bed but I just about messed my shorts up clearing out an overgrown garden with some very dry beehives placed nearby once... On the upside that particular patch is reletivly weed free this year.


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## jackblack

A vinegar mixture is my weed killer of choice. It's natural, cheap and also pet and child friendly. I found a great recipe for it at Weed Killer Central. They also have other great tips about how other possible natural weed killers.


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## Acebird

Normally I pull the weeds and use my weeding hoe. Things got out of hand this year and I had to use the field mower (overgrown week wacker). Others say bees hate weed whackers but they didn't seem to mind.


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## jwcarlson

Ian said:


> Adding salt to your soil isnt really good for the soil,
> I would say roundup would do less harm to your soil health than that of your treatment.
> Dont forget about everything else that lives in your soil,





bhfury said:


> They must know my weeds





BGhoney said:


> I tried straight vinegar on some weeds around the yard, they loved it, never looked so green.





bhfury said:


> Here in Farmington we could only find the 5% and it did work worth a hoot an the weeds. :no:


This is an old thread. But I have never had the weeds I kill with vinegar not come right back. It kills the foliage, but not the roots. It actually does a good job at that. I did several applications last year and none of them ever did permanently kill anything.


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## maudbid

So acetic acid, or sodium acetate and hydrochloric acid are considered non-toxic?

:lpf:


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## waynesgarden

jackblack said:


> A vinegar mixture is my weed killer of choice. It's natural, cheap and also pet and child friendly..



Nothing natural about adding all that salt to your soil. Read the previous posts in this thread.

Wayne


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## Nabber86

maudbid said:


> So acetic acid, or sodium acetate and hydrochloric acid are considered non-toxic?
> 
> :lpf:


I heard that glacial acetic acid works the best.


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## FlowerPlanter

This is making it's rounds, as more people are finding roundup is not as safe as once thought. 

The recipe says to use Epson salt, dawn and vinegar.

Epson salt is used in many fertilizers.


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## Moccasin

An 83 year old lady uses the regular white vinegar 4 or 5% and it works to keep her grass and weeds yellow until the next mowing. She never mixes it, just uses it straight from the bottle into her sprayer. The road crews here in my state have started using herbicides instead of mowing and the roadsides are now washing deep ruts. A lady and her child died pulling onto the shoulder because she fell into the rut. The herbicides are causing a lot of erosion because they destroy soil life and structure. Vinegar is a natural product from fermentation of fruit. It is a bacteria by product. After a while it is consumed by microbes. The synthetic stuff has to wash into the ocean like plastic. It is not consumed by microbes but kills them. It kills plankton and microbes which is the basis of the food chain of the Earth. I just mow with a bush hog and weed eater but am looking into getting carpet to put in front of mine.


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## Nabber86

Now that is vague. How exactly does roundup "destroy soil life and structure"? If you kill the plants, you get erosion whether you kill the plants with roundup or vinegar. In fact vinegar is an acid, so it destroys soil structure by dissolving calcium and magnesium salts that help hold soil together.

Also roundup degrades long before it hits the ocean. It is not like plastic.


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## Acebird

Moccasin said:


> but am looking into getting carpet to put in front of mine.


We did that for a while to control weeds along a state fence. By the third year the carpet breaks down and the weeds grow through it. Unfortunately the warp yarn doesn't break down so easily and to remove the carpet three years later is a pain. You get strands of carpet that will jam up any rotary mower beyond belief. So if you replace the carpet every two years you might be happy but if you try to stretch it to three years you will be using four letter words.

Because I have access to pallets that have a solid top I now lay them flat on the ground. Anything that you lay on the ground that is solid will kill everything. Any weed that can make its way through your cover will thrive so nylon woven tarps are worthless. Now if you want to spend the money you could get the fabric that green houses use. I suspect it is expensive and getting a small piece might be difficult for a home owner.

By far if you have to buy something mulch would be the cheapest. When it turns to dirt remove it and put it in your garden and replace with new mulch.


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> We did that for a while to control weeds along a state fence. By the third year the carpet breaks down and the weeds grow through it. Unfortunately the warp yarn doesn't break down so easily and to remove the carpet three years later is a pain. You get strands of carpet that will jam up any rotary mower beyond belief. So if you replace the carpet every two years you might be happy but if you try to stretch it to three years you will be using four letter.


welll that is what you get when you apply a man made synthetic chemical that never breaks down in the environment (polyethylene fibers). You know that bird pick up stands of fiber for a nest and the chicks get caught up it and suffocate. Also when it makes it's way to the ocean, end ends up in that giantic garbage island that is floating in the South Pacific. 

Great way to screw up the environment when you could have just used roundup and cause a lot less damage.


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## HIVE+

A while back I conferred with Chemguy about concentrating vinegar and he suggested an old method originally used to increase the alcohol content of homebrew. Put vinegar in the freezer and when ice crystals form, pour off the remaining liquid, which is concentrated vinegar. Laborious.


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## rwurster

I demolished the neighbor's shed for the 1x10s and 2x4s in it and use the corrugated tin roof (12'x60') on the ground to snuff out weeds. It works great but moving it can be a pain.


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## jamman

By far if you have to buy something mulch would be the cheapest. When it turns to dirt remove it and put it in your garden and replace with new mulch.[/QUOTE]

I do not have the beekeeping experience but having gardened organically for 30 years, Brian is right on the money. Just find a source for bulk wood mulch and lay a thick layer. I would weedeat the spot to the ground then apply. Or, vinegar it or flame treat it, then weedeat it to the ground then a thick layer of bark or wood mulch. Yes, it is a bit more work. But how many on here have a 1,000 hives to deal with? And you can try and say it isn't true, but things like Roundup and all these other chems are having bad effects in our environment. Look at many studies on CCD and other problems for the bees and what do they point to? A combination of miticides, pesticides, herbicides and other stresses. But I don't want to start a fight.

rwurster has a good suggestion, however I used to love to take my dog hunting where I had lots of tin on the ground. In some areas it will be a great homesite for local rodents. Mine weren't bad as they were voles. But I'll take that over spraying lots of chems.

My opinion. YMMV.


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## HIVE+

If anyone has ever piled fresh wood chips or sawdust on the ground to rot, you know that it will leave a bare spot for a couple of years, due to nitrogen depletion.


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## BeeAttitudes

Interesting that instead of discussing the affects of Roundup specifically, it gets grouped as "Roundup and other chemicals" and then slammed. Of course, "other chemicals" includes everything in existence so yeah, there probably are bad things.......but that doesn't mean Roundup does all those things. Later it's grouped with "insecticides, miticides, and other stresses" as the cause of CCD. I've never read where the cause of CCD has been identified........but I will say that if you lump Roundup in with a group that includes insecticides, then yep, that group will be bad for bees. Of course that gives you zero information whether Roundup is bad for the environment or not.

I would like to see documentation that Roundup "doesn't break down" and documentation that it "makes it to the ocean to kill plankton". If that were true, I wouldn't want to use it. From what I understand, that isn't true......but I'm open to change my mind if shown valid research and not info from some wacko site with an agenda.


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## JConnolly

This works really well for me. It works instantly. I don't have to mix it. It is safe for the bees. It leaves no residue in the environment. It is reusable. I can leave it in the apiary.


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## Moccasin

Monsanto has been found guilty of hiring scientists to falsify findings of bio-degradability and environmental and human safety issues concerning It's main profit product Round -up. This has been done in many countries and states. The US EPA also found them liars. #1 Agent Orange herbicide was said to be absolutely safe once, even drinkable. #2 Paraquat herbicide was said to be considered safe once. In the words of the famous George W. Bush, " Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, A fool me can't get fooled again!"


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## Nabber86

Do you have a source for the claim that agent orange was once claimed to be drinkable?


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## jamman

BeeAttitudes,

Since you mentioned my words specifically, I'll respond to that.

"Look at many studies on CCD and other problems for the bees and what do they point to? A combination of miticides, pesticides, herbicides and other stresses. But I don't want to start a fight."

Nope, never said they found the cause, but I suppose you could take it that way. I did say that they "point to" these different environmental stresses. Farmers spraying all kinds of herbicides, pesticides, etc. Other scientists point to the build up of the treatments in the hive as contributing factors that they point to in discussion of CCD.

Now, since the original post is specifically about All natural weed killer (say no to Round Up), I am going to assume that this thread was directly pointed to the alternatives. I doubt they wanted a long discussion on it, so I'm not going to delve into lots of it here. It is interesting that the World Health Organization revisited Round Up and said that they believe it probably is carcinogenic. It isn't clear. Make up your own mind. But I truth in advertising....I am ALWAYS skeptical of any corporation. So yeah, my guard is up on products. Anyway, not the direction of the thread. For your own edification, here is one link not from a "wacko site with its own agenda".... or is it?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/widely-used-herbicide-linked-to-cancer/

Have a great weekend. Going to be doing lots of weeding and work in the garden and look in on the girls. Hope everyone else is going to have as much fun as I!


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