# Wild Bees in England Possible Last Descendants of Native Lineage



## zabadoh (Jul 18, 2019)

It doesn't sound like they'd useful for commercial apiculture though: They build curvy comb, swarm frequently, build small colonies, and don't store much honey. 

Although a lot of that could be because they're all living in small tree holes that are their natural habitat.


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## mrphillip2 (Nov 7, 2021)

zabadoh said:


> It doesn't sound like they'd useful for commercial apiculture though: They build curvy comb, swarm frequently, build small colonies, and don't store much honey.
> 
> Although a lot of that could be because they're all living in small tree holes that are their natural habitat.


This is Dr. Seeley’s assessment too. Survivor feral bees have small colonies, swarm frequently, don’t produce excess honey, and are spaced far apart… good for bees, suboptimal for beekeepers.

He has also documented a 90% loss in genetic diversity in the Arnot forest compared to his pre varroa samples. The mites decimated the feral honeybees, it makes one wonder what we’ve lost.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

zabadoh said:


> It doesn't sound like they'd useful for commercial apiculture though: They build curvy comb, swarm frequently, build small colonies, and don't store much honey.
> 
> Although a lot of that could be because they're all living in small tree holes that are their natural habitat.


Your description matches my long ago experience with ferals. I'll take exception to the 'curvy comb' statement, as IMO, if put in Langstroth frames and foundation that problem for beekkeepers would be eliminated.


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## Boondocks (Sep 16, 2020)

Thanks for posting this.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Thanks for posting the articles, zabadoh. I had not seen the Natural Bees article.

It seems like folks on the island such as the Natural Beekeeping Trust and BIBBA suspect that there is quite a bit of feral AMM still around:









Feral or Wild Bees?


Do feral or wild bees still exist in the UK? If so, what is the difference between a feral colony, a wild colony and a colony of native British bees (Apis Mellifera mellifera)? The article below addresses some of these questions. It was originally printed as a letter from David Heaf to the editor o




www.naturalbeekeepingtrust.org













Native Honey Bees - BIBBA


It is fairly certain that the Dark European Honey Bee, Apis mellifera mellifera, has been native to mainland Britain since before the closing of the Channel Landbridge, when sea levels rose following the last Ice Age. They became isolated and adapted to the different conditions they found...




bibba.com


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Fascinating article! I hope it is indeed a viable population as that would be invaluable for genetic work with more commercial strains of bees. I suspect after some real science is done, the story will somewhat change. A lot of presuppisions and unsupported WAGs in this text.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Vance G said:


> Fascinating article! I hope it is indeed a viable population as that would be invaluable for genetic work with more commercial strains of bees. I suspect after some real science is done, the story will somewhat change. A lot of presuppisions and unsupported WAGs in this text.


Yah, a bit over-enthusiastic for my taste. I got the impression the writer isn't all that familiar with honey bees. Lots of speculation. Be interesting to see what a gene scan shows.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Especially I liked the part about the bee swarm with multiple queens as a "new way of survival?".  



> Unusually, the bees swarm with multiple queens – up to nine in some cases – to ensure the colony’s survival,


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> Thanks for posting the articles, zabadoh. I had not seen the Natural Bees article.
> 
> It seems like folks on the island such as the Natural Beekeeping Trust and BIBBA suspect that there is quite a bit of feral AMM still around:
> 
> ...


As far as "being around"
a) these bees swarmed in from "somewhere"
b) to keep any kind of vitality there needs be several "bee trees" 

so IMO there are more than they think, Last descendants , should be found some descendants.

so the presumption of their demise is premature.

they find new species almost every year. so all is not yet known.

GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> ... so the presumption of their demise is premature.


Makes sense to me, my friend.

I hope all is well with you and yours up there in the frozen North.


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## Little Brother (Nov 18, 2021)

Yes folks we do have dark NATIVE bees here in Cornwall... my Cornish Amm out produced the non exotic native imports this season on honey production, possibly due to careful selection of queens and culling the unwanted drones..... and flooding the area with good drones!
There are quite a few Beefarmers here in the SouthWest of England that manage very successful honey businesses using the Native Cornish dark bee.
BIBBA has a new initiative to encourage beekeepers to raise and use localised stock that has adapted to local conditions.
I dont't think that there is a feral stock of bees on the UK mainland... ones living in the wild woods probably swarmed from a managed colony!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Welcome to the forum, Little Brother. We'll look forward to reading more about your operation.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Little Brother said:


> I dont't think that there is a feral stock of bees on the UK mainland... ones living in the wild woods probably swarmed from a managed colony!


They will run the testing and we'll know better.


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