# Shop accident!



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ya coulda just said 'I cut my finger" and saved a lot of typing!  But the bit about pepper in the eye is priceless! Glad you survived another life lesson!


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

One of my greatest fears in woodworking. The other is losing an eyeball to flying parts. 

Glad you weren't hurt too bad! 

Also, I've never heard of peppering a wound like that. Folks in Wyoming must be tougher.


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## 22DPac (Jun 24, 2012)

Glad that you made it out alive and were still able to teach all of us a lesson on first aid using cayenne!


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## OneEyedRooster (Nov 10, 2012)

Ben- is this your way of telling me my new woodenware is going to have a little blood on it and smell like pepper? All kidding aside, glad it wasn't worse. I once re-wired a dryer in a damp basement only to realize when I went to flip the breaker back on that it was on. Hard to believe we survive childhood and adulthood as guys since we are prone to so many stories like this.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Nope, the pepper and blood all was in the house. Very funny, hopefully this isn't a loss of professionalism. :lpf:


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Now I don't feel so bad about dropping my lighter in my smoker and having it blow up on me. I'm glad you're ok.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

What ever happened to duct tape and back to work, or you're fired.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Glad you're OK!

Nice story, I got a visual through the whole thing.  Just like a movie.
I'm thinking cayenne and honey would have made a good poultice. Keep it from getting airborn too. If you didn't use it all you could just cook a ham and glaze it with the rest.

Don't forget the propolis and everclear tincher. 

You're probably going to need a new keyboard after this. You just don't know it yet.
Make sure your tetanus is up to date. Bee sting therapy doesn't count.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Photos?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Sure thing!

Cleaned finger:








Face, 10 minutes after the pepper treatment (looks great, eh ); also includes peppered fingertip in lower left corner of pic:


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

OUCH! That is going to hurt tomorrow!
You need to change your handle to HandsomeWesternBeeKeeper


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Good job Ben. There are a lot of nerve endings in fingers, that must have stung. You were lucky. I am scared of my power tools.


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## wmsuber (Apr 4, 2011)

I am glad you were fortunate to walk away without being more seriously injured. A good thought to remember for woodworking is not to say "If it happens", but to say "When it happens". Keeping that in my mind has made me rethink many of our shop procedures and to keep those safety glasses on when otherwise I might not have.


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

Yes I always need to be careful when I work on my shop smith because I am pressing the wood against the spin, and my "safety" sticks that I use to keep my hands away from the spinning blade tend to force me to put too much pressure in the direction of the spinning blade. I almost slipped 1 time when the pressure gave way and my hand ventured too close to the blade.

Some safety things I learned is to not have the blade sticking up above the piece of wood so that I don't have that much blade to slip into if I make a mistake and under estimate my strength.
Some other safety tips are to not wear gloves when working on that equipment as the fabric may get caught up in the rotation and cause - er... issues.

Better Luck next time.


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

Alright, I'm almost certain WesternBeekeeper is the same guy that told the Looney Toon story of trying to get some hives off the roof of a building with a makeshift block and tackle. It went something like: 600 lb load of hives yanks 150 lb man off the ground, carrying him to the roof where he hits his head on the pulley and smashes his hand, only to fall back to the ground and land in the sticky, stinging pile of smashes hives. 

Now when he posted that I laughed hysterically and commented that I hoped he was kidding and just made up a good story. Never heard back and confirmation. But now we have photos of evidence of this story! Dang man, be careful! I still want to know, was the rooftop hives also a true story?


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## skosma (May 30, 2013)

Glad to hear you didn't lose a finger.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Within the last year I heard about using cayenne pepper to stop bleeding. Some people apparently keep it in the first aid kit. Also, read that calcium bentonite clay can be used to stop bleeding. Use it in powder form.

What's that white stuff on the finger end? Bone? If bone, you should probably have it closed up by a doc.

Gotta tell this story......years ago we had a construction guy come to install a patio door for us. He was measuring the window area and I was watching him never noticing how many fingers and parts of fingers he was missing (wooo!) until he mentioned it. I think he thought I noticed that.

My dad caught a small chunk of wood with his glasses while working with a saw. The lens shattered and peppered his eye and face. He was lucky he didn't lose an eye.


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

Ouch!!!


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## Bstanley (Jan 21, 2014)

JStinson said:


> Also, I've never heard of peppering a wound like that. Folks in Wyoming must be tougher.


As for the pepper in the wound part, and myself being a nurse, that just screams infection to me! Would I do that now? No, so maybe I'm not as tough but however I commend you for doing it and having it work. (I did however put a couple stitches in my own thumb at the age of 14.. with fishing line... after I pulled the razor blade out of the bone in my thumb. Not one of my brighter moments looking back at it  ) I will admit that I was cracking up while reading this. Not at your misfortune of course because it could've been much worse really fast. I was laughing at the creativity in how you described the sequence of events. Thanks for sharing and I do hope you have safer experiences from here on out!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I am trying to imagine how you got your finger into a router bit. Was it set up in a table? Hopefully you were not climb cutting? The bit should be turning toward the feed not with the feed.

Reminder: accidents on a table saw are far less forgiving.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I'll bet you'll use push sticks and a holding jig from now on.
I had an ambulance call to a shop accident years back. The guy was using a 6" planer and ran his fingers (3) through it as you describe. Hamburg is all I can say. He appeard to be more pissed at himself than anything.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Probably a jointer, but any how they are totally unforgiving. You might not think so but so is a powered grinding wheel.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Yep jointer... thanks for the catch Ace.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Glad you're ok! Live & learn..... Thanks for the posting. It was a good chronology of events and funny!


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## BeeMoose (Oct 19, 2013)

Anyone who does any woodworking is unfortunately going to have an accident. Just hope when it happens, it is not that bad and don't loose something important (finger, eye)

People who have woodworked for a long period sometimes get complacent and that is when it happens. I know a lot of older carpenters/woodworkers missing digits. I have come close with a table saw before. Blind luck, or being watched over.

I am glad it looks like something you can recover from. eventually.


Ohio. O hives (All on order)


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

My observation is that I become more careless as I become fatigued. I am grateful that, as a sideliner, I can stop when I am tired. Ben, establishing himself as a sole proprieter, doesn't have that luxury. I hope that he can take the time to process what can be done differently in his shop to avoid accidents. His trusty workforce is down by 10% right now. This is inconvenient and painful, but only takes a little of the wind out of Prairie Wind Bee Supply. Suppose this happened in the middle of the busiest season? It is one thing to be a one-man-band, it is much tougher to be a one-handed-one-man-band.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

BeeMoose said:


> Just hope when it happens, it is not that bad and don't loose something important (finger, eye)
> 
> (All on order)


I couldn't help but chuckle at that.....I am kind of fond of ALL my parts...


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Hows the finger feel this morning Benjamin? Hope you got some sleep last night. It's going to be a nuisance to you for the next week.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

It's actually feeling great. Still completely numb.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Glad to hear it. 

It's in the low 20's here and I am off to the shop to make bottom boards today. 
Next year I'll reorganize my shop to have a heater in it. It's been miiiighty cold this winter.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

55 tropical degrees here today.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

I am glad you are OK. 

Now for an ignorant question. What is the best practice when using a table router? I would think 2 sticks, one to push the work down and into the fence, and a second to move the work through the router?

Phil


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

philip.devos said:


> Now for an ignorant question. What is the best practice when using a table router? I would think 2 sticks, one to push the work down and into the fence, and a second to move the work through the router?
> Phil


You are not going to like my answer. The best practice is to NOT hog it out in one pass. As far as I am concerned routers should only be used for clean up. Assuming you are right handed you apply pressure towards the fence with the left hand and push the stock through with the right hand just like a table saw. Use a dado blade for hogging large amounts of wood and then true it up with the router. The other option is to rough it out with a saw. The router doesn't have the power and the 1/4 shaft is too light. Now if you have a shaper...


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Nice cut.gladit was not any worse than it was.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

Ouch, I imagined the whole finger was gone. It looks damaged badly but better than the whole finger missing. I'm glad that you will most likely survive. I cut my thumb with a knife once and the doctor that stitched me had the same scar not just on the same thumb I had injured but he also had the scar on his other thumb as well. He smiled as he showed me his scars and clearly understood that these things happen. Hand injuries are common. Posting about this is a good reminder to us all to follow safety procedures. I have safety glasses all over the place so I don't go without them in a hurry trying to cut something, chisel something, or grind something etc. It is a temptation that seems to present itself quite often. Best wishes on a speedy recovery.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

He'll be feeling that for a long time and it will be sensitive even longer. I sliced off the corner of a finger w/ a manual potato chip slicer. That was last April. Still feel sensitive when I touch it.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Ben, glad to hear and see it was not as serious as I imagined while reading our story 

The wooden things you made for me last week look real good, thanks.


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> He'll be feeling that for a long time and it will be sensitive even longer. I sliced off the corner of a finger w/ a manual potato chip slicer. That was last April. Still feel sensitive when I touch it.


I've taken off the tip of my thumb with one of those, TWICE! The second time I think I actually sliced off the scar from the first time. 

Cut like these are awful as there is no way to just stitch it up. The flesh is gone! You just have to wait to heal. I've also take a pretty good kerf out of my thigh with a chainsaw. Didn't really hurt all that bad, but bled like crazy and took weeks to heal, leaving a nice scar. 

Hope it heals quick man. Maybe get some feather boards for that router table! I'm all sorts of nervous when making their small rip cuts on my table saw, even with a feather board on the side and a push stick on top.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I cringed when I read router...after reading shop accident.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I have an ancient and totally unsafe table saw in my garage that I was JUST considering using. You convinced me. I need all my fingers. Glad you are ok though


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## HIVE+ (Jan 4, 2012)

Thanks for the pictures, Ben. It could have been worse, but it's bad enough. 
Interesting, your use of cayenne pepper, I read in a Boy Scout handbook, fifty years ago, that black pepper would instantly coagulate blood. I use it often and it doesn't burn, it just touches the blood and forms a scab. I think everyone should include a few packs of black pepper, procured from a restaurant, in their First Aid kits.
Wishing you a speedy recovery.


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## Jed (Feb 23, 2013)

hey ben after seeing the pics looks like you got off good ....I have had friends that have lost a whole lot more of their finger to a router . I think about that happening all the time ,I make all my own boxes too but havnt had an encounter like that yet ...closest thing to it was once I was cutting 3/4 in plywood ,and for some dumb reason I was throwing all the 4in by 10in scraps behind the saw ..ie over the saw, well one missed ...landed directly on top of the blade, hit me right in the gut ....knocked me flat on the floor ,I thought I was going to die.
LESSON LEARNED ....NEVER THROW A SCRAP OF WOOD OVER A TABLE SAW :lookout::lookout::lookout:


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

In an amazingly similar incident I, too, nearly lost a finger the other day. 

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c285/barrydigman/DSC_0502.jpg

Well, it was my Hamilton Beach manual juicer, but still...


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Barry Digman said:


> In an amazingly similar incident I, too, nearly lost a finger the other day.


Come on Barry, that's a Boo Boo! :gh:


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

snl said:


> Come on Barry, that's a Boo Boo! :gh:


I'll bet you the pucker factor was about the same as Ben.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> The router doesn't have the power and the 1/4 shaft is too light.


Ah, router bits come with 1/2" shanks and routers 3 HP. Plenty powerful for doing what routers do.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> Ah, router bits come with 1/2" shanks and routers 3 HP. Plenty powerful for doing what routers do.


I think you are referring to a shaper. You would have a hard time picking up a router with 3 HP.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I think you are referring to a shaper. You would have a hard time picking up a router with 3 HP.


http://www.amazon.com/PORTER-CABLE-...TF8&qid=1390741808&sr=8-1&keywords=3hp+router
http://www.amazon.com/Triton-TRA001...TF8&qid=1390741808&sr=8-2&keywords=3hp+router

...Amazon shows at least 7 models that are 3hp or more.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Very glad it was not worse. and nice to see you have some humor about it. Bad things happen in a shop and I hate to see it. I really need to get it together and get my jig/guard project going. There are ways to pretty much insure your body cannot contact blades in most cases. even with your router bit believe it or not. Radial arm saw is pretty much an exception.

I am just finishing up the last part of a jig for making bottom bars for fraems. you know those little pencil thin things that you have to get your fingers way to close to the blade to make. I actually shut off my saw and intentionally tried to touch the blade with my finger. and could barely do it. a little modification and I believe it would actually be impossible to touch the blade with this jig. As it is I believe it is impossible to contact the blade by accident. The blade is actually buried completely inside the jig. You can come close to the same thing for a router bit.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deknow said:


> ...Amazon shows at least 7 models that are 3hp or more.


Yeah, I forgot about the speed factor. If these were mounted in a table I would still not hog out a full groove width. Ben, show us your set up. Was it one of these?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> You would have a hard time picking up a router with 3 HP.


Routers are all designed to be hand held. They're made from the very small trim router held with one hand, to the large and powerful 3HP plunge routers. AFAIK, Ben said nothing about how he was using his router, whether it was hand held (not as dangerous) or mounted in a table (more dangerous). A lot of people like to mount a router in a table and use it like a shaper. That's fine, I have a 3HP plunge router that I keep mounted in a table, but the safety and use of a router this way becomes much different. You're now holding and moving the workpiece across the cutting bit giving you more options to do unsafe procedures. I'm guessing Ben was using his router in a table. That's not to say you can't end up getting your fingers in the business end of a hand held simply by not being careful how you handle a router between the time you turn it off and the bit stops turning.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Love the photo Barry. That little delay when you click on it gives you time to wonder just what bloody mess you're going to see. LOL, I laughed out loud on that one. 

I use a router with 1/2 shank and a compound 12" Dewalt miter saw for everything to this point. Not sure about the horse power of my router though, but it has plenty of power. . I'll have to look into that.

My husband won't let me have a table saw. He has apparently seen what damage they can do. I've used them before and have total respect for them. I understand his point of view.But a good set up with a table behind and dado blade would make some chores cleaner and faster...

I love working with the cedar I get. It's Soft, smells great and the router makes nice easy clean cuts. I don't use cedar for many things though. Too unstable. Too much shrinkage. I occcasionally get some hard hemlock wood that wants so chip and splinter in the router. It's a pain.

These are the bits I use the most. The shaper bit is 1/4" shank, but that doesn't get the pressure the others do. I use that to put a finished edge on my mating nuc lids.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Lauri said:


> L
> My husband won't let me have a table saw. He has apparently seen what damage they can do. I've used them before and have total respect for them. I understand his point of view.But a good set up with a table behind and dado blade would make some chores cleaner and faster...


Lauri, 
You might want to consider a table saw with a power feeder. No kickback, no fingers getting cut, holds the wood right up against the fence.. Works like a charm.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I'll look into that SNL, thanks!


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## Gord (Feb 8, 2011)

Hey Lauri

You and your husband should look at a Sawstop tablesaw.
I bought one a year ago, and 6 months later it prevented me from cutting off 1" of my thumb.
Money well spent !


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## Will O'Brien (Feb 22, 2006)

Coach Tuttle, my shop teacher, was a man of few words but when he talked it was usually about something very important, and he was always right. On this subject he often said: "You better respect the machine boy, because the machine ain't gonna respect you!". Said with a heavy Oklahma draw. That instruction has served me well for over 30 years, in my shop and in my career.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Lburou said:


> I'll bet you the pucker factor was about the same as Ben.


Depends on how many Margaritas were made in the blender and later consumed by Barry before the accident! :scratch:


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## Jim Austin (Nov 25, 2013)

Don't know your set-up but look up "Feather Board" on google. They provide one way pressure and help avoid kickbacks, especially on smaller pieces...



DreamWorks Home Builder


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I think you should charge more money for the piece you were working on. You must have bled all over it and can give them the story of how your blood sweat and tears went into building their equipment!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Fairly obvious to me that he had it mounted in a table. otherwise why was his hand on the work. If you use a router the way it is made to be used the bit is buried for the most part. It is under the router. It is still easy to make it completely buried but not as necessary. you have to be pretty far out of line to hurt yourself with a hand held router. That they can jump around would be about the worst I can think of. If you are using a big hand held router both hands should be on it's handles.



Barry said:


> Routers are all designed to be hand held. They're made from the very small trim router held with one hand, to the large and powerful 3HP plunge routers. AFAIK, Ben said nothing about how he was using his router, whether it was hand held (not as dangerous) or mounted in a table (more dangerous). A lot of people like to mount a router in a table and use it like a shaper. That's fine, I have a 3HP plunge router that I keep mounted in a table, but the safety and use of a router this way becomes much different. You're now holding and moving the workpiece across the cutting bit giving you more options to do unsafe procedures. I'm guessing Ben was using his router in a table. That's not to say you can end up getting your fingers in the business end of a hand held simple by not being careful how you handle a router between the time you turn it off and the bit stops turning.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

This was a topic on another thread. but power equipment labels almost always list peak HP. and with a high speed tool like a router that fudge factor is much greater. 

The formula for HP is (RPM * T) / 5252 and is based upon 1700's calculations on how much work a horse could do in one minute. IN this case we can guess at the RPM and I will say it is 20,000 and the HP listed of 3.5 What we do not know is T. But if you remember your high school algebra you can figure the unknown factor by swapping things around. You end up with T=(RMP/HP)/5252. OR T=(20,000/3.5)/5252. You end up with a Torque of 1.088 I believe it is ft lbs of torque. now I do not know how many bolts you have torqued. but that is not much more force than you can apply with your bare fingers. although 3.5 HP may be a strong motor in something with a much slower RPM like a table saw at 2200. it is not so much in something at high speed like a router. The same figures with 2200 plugged into the RPM is nearly ten times as much 0r 10.88 ft lbs of torque. and that force is driving a much smaller cutting edge.

In all HP is for the most part a moving target.





deknow said:


> http://www.amazon.com/PORTER-CABLE-...TF8&qid=1390741808&sr=8-1&keywords=3hp+router
> http://www.amazon.com/Triton-TRA001...TF8&qid=1390741808&sr=8-2&keywords=3hp+router
> 
> ...Amazon shows at least 7 models that are 3hp or more.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> You end up with a Torque of 1.088 I believe it is ft lbs of torque. now I do not know how many bolts you have torqued. but that is not much more force than [HIGHLIGHT] you can apply with your bare fingers.[/HIGHLIGHT]


Hmmm.

I think applying his '_bare fingers_'  to the router is what got Ben in trouble in the first place. :no:


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I think you are referring to a shaper. You would have a hard time picking up a router with 3 HP.


a shaper has a HP in the same range as a good sized table saw. 10-15 hp range. I know ours in the shop had a 10 hp motor. Using a router is fine to hog out a bunch of material just not all at once. I use a router table to do plenty of stuff, but you need to realize design of equipment. A dado blade is designed to hog out a bunch of material. It shakes the board a bunch and it doesnt' leave a pretty edge. It is fast though and if you don't need a pretty bottom edge then that's the way to go. Otherwise a router will do, but it will take you 3 passes to get the same as one on a table saw w/ a dado blade. Those are nice boxes Lauri!!! 

On another note if you look at the router bits that she showed there's one thing to consider regarding how much can be taken off. It's called the "rake angle" I believe. If you find the exact center of the bit and draw a line from there to the tip of the cutter, then compare that with the cutting angle most router bits there is no angle and therefore they don't cut they scrape. Therefore, you can't take much off because they're not able to handle that much. The one cutter that's chucked in the router router has a good rake angle and would be able to take more off than a regular router bit. Compare that with the small bit in her hand. That one has 0 rake angle where the larger one probably has 5 - 10 degree rake angle which will also make a better / smoother cut.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

westernbeekeeper said:


> Hello everybody,
> Had a little mishap in the shop today. I was working with the router, making hive parts. I'll send a pic of my handiwork later. Anyhoo, as I'm running 3/4" X 3/4" strips through the router, I was nearly halfway done, and the nice, sharp, flying, spinning, shiny router bit grabbed the piece out of my hand just as I began pressing downward. My now-vulnerable fingertip (of my right hand) was now firmly applied to the above described running router bit blades.


Push sticks and sleds are your fingers friends.....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

delber said:


> That one has 0 rake angle where the larger one probably has 5 - 10 degree rake angle which will also make a better / smoother cut.


Any tool that had a 0 rake angle wouldn't cut butter on a warm day it will just burn it way through. 10-15 HP would be an industrial tool.



> A dado blade is designed to hog out a bunch of material. It shakes the board a bunch and it doesnt' leave a pretty edge. It is fast though and if you don't need a pretty bottom edge then that's the way to go.


There shouldn't be any shaking at all. I didn't want to mention to Rader about the typical bottom edge of a stacked dado weakening his glue joints. Some day he will learn.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Any tool that had a 0 rake angle wouldn't cut butter on a warm day it will just burn it way through.


I suspect that a company such as _Detroit Bandsaw_ that specializes in saws and blades has a better understanding of _rake angle_ than Ace does ... :lpf:


> *What is the rake angle of your saw blade teeth?
> 
> *Most bimetal bandsaw blades vary in rake angle from 0 to 10 degree positive rake angle. A positive rake angle will provide a faster cutting action, and enable you to penetrate harder materials easier. Tooth patterns that are 5-8 and finer typically have a zero degree positive rake angle, while more aggressive teeth are manufactured with the higher positive rake angle.
> 
> http://www.detroitbandsaw.com/store.asp?pid=27969


Lots of "zero degree rake angle" blades in that quote ....

:gh:

... no mention of butter ...


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Any tool that had a 0 rake angle wouldn't cut butter on a warm day it will just burn it way through. 10-15 HP would be an industrial tool.
> 
> 
> 
> There shouldn't be any shaking at all. I didn't want to mention to Rader about the typical bottom edge of a stacked dado weakening his glue joints. Some day he will learn.


A shaper is an industrial tool in my mind. 

You are right. I used the wrong word. I should have used vibrate not shake. Have you ever used a dado blade? I have used them new out of the package and they vibrate no matter what you do. I haven't used the "wobble" blades. They just seem to be unsafe to me. I use the ones that you pack out. It has 2 "regular" blades on either side and you put in wedges (for lack of a better / more correct term) that only have 2 teeth per "blade". One on one side and one on the other. You are to stack these so that the inside blades are staggered and because they are taking out so much material they will vibrate and leave a unsmooth edge. 

Bottom line wether it's a "industrial" tool or a hobbiest tool whatever that is you need to respect (NOT FEAR) the tool. If we fear the tool we're bound to get hurt. A table saw is a great piece of equipment and very helpful, but you NEED to respect them. They will cut through your fingers / hand faster than the wood. I personally have been nicked on a router and took the tip of my finger off on a jointer. Why? I was trying to "Just do one more thing" before leaving for the day. VERY VERY STUPID!!! Also I learned that if the board is going you aren't going to be able to stop it. (well unless you have a very weak machine) I was taught to pull my hands back if this happens. Our instinct is to push down harder. If we do this then we will go into the blade / saw also.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The interior blades in a dado stack set are often referred to as "chippers". The Forrest Dado King stack set that I use has 4 teeth on each chipper.










I am quite pleased with the _smooth quality _of rabbets cut with this tool.  

I made some sleds to use with repetitive cuts which keep my fingers away from the blade.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

delber said:


> A shaper is an industrial tool in my mind.


Yes, I agree.



> I should have used vibrate not shake. Have you ever used a dado blade? I have used them new out of the package and they vibrate no matter what you do. I haven't used the "wobble" blades. They just seem to be unsafe to me.


I thought you were referring to the board shaking not the dado blade. If it vibrates it is out of balance or your spindle is bent. The wobble blade that I have is smooth as silk. It should not vibrate and is a much lighter mass to begin with. The stacked dado that I have used had many teeth in the internal stack (more like a regular saw blade). I have never used one with chipper blades like the one Rader showed. That would be a better design because it wouldn't suffer from chip clearance like the old one's did, plus it appears to be carbide tipped. I would use the supporting washer on the nut end for this blade.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

How did we get here? This tread sure took an odd turn somewhere.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

@westernbeekeeper:
I'm sorry to hear of your accident, but I am glad it was not worse. Be careful youngster, you have decades and decades to go, and you need to keep these little dings to a minimum. In your old age, all these injuries will have more and more effect on your tired old body. On the upside, it may have been worth the wound to have Lauri refer to you as "handsome western beekeeper."

@lauri:
Oh my God, you just do beautiful woodwork. Thanks for showing us the pictures, although it does make me envious.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I suspect that a company such as _Detroit Bandsaw_ that specializes in saws and blades has a better understanding of _rake angle_ than Ace does ... :lpf:


I thought we were referencing tools that cut wood. Find one with a 0 rake angle for wood.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I thought we were referencing tools that cut wood. Find one with a 0 rake angle for wood.


Ace. Do you have any router bits? You need to look at the end or top of the bit to see the angle. Refer to this page for rake angle. . . 
http://www.onsrud.com/plusdocs/Doc/index.html?model.code=TECH028 
There's a nice little diagram to the right of this page. Once you understand rake angle, then look at this router bit. . . 
https://www.masters.com.au/media/MA...00919663_0_9999_med_v1_m56577569831140634.jpg
If you look at it the face of the bit is pointed straight at the center of the bit. This is a 0 degree router bit designed for wood. What they do to try to get things a little better is they slightly angle the piece of carbide from top to bottom. YOu can also see this in this picture. 

Thanks for the link radar. I hadn't seen these before, but they are a bit over my price budget at this point. A sled is definitely the way to go. If I was making boxes the standard way I would make a sled also with a stop that would put me in exactly the right spot every time. You probably have this already. I do like the 4 tooth chippers. Very nice.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I thought we were referencing tools that cut wood. Find one with a 0 rake angle for wood.


Come on Ace - do you even do _any _checking before making these comments? :scratch:

One example of _zero _rake angle wood blades is the Starrett *Woodpecker *Premium Band Saw Blade product line. After you click to the page, look at the last two columns for blades coded with an "S". According to the legend at the bottom of the page, the "S" versions are "S: Straight (*Zero*) Rake".

Just in case anyone isn't sure, the _Woodpecker _product is designed for cutting *wood*!


> Woodpecker Premium blades have a hardened spring tempered back and ground, positive angle precision set teeth. Available as thin as .020" for contour cutting fine hardwoods, thicker blades are also available for tough tasks such grade lumber re-saws and pallet work. These blades can be re-sharpened.
> 
> http://www.starrett.com/saws/saws-hand-tool-products/band-saw-blades/wood-cutting/woodpecker-premium


:gh:

.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Ace you obviously know little about fine wood working or you would know that the best saw blade for wood in a radial arm saw has a NEGATIVE 5 deg hook angle. Such a blade will make a glue ready rip in hard wood like cherry or oak without burning a bit. You try using one of your cheap, junk, plus 15 deg hook angle blades in a radial arm saw for ripping and I will see you at the hospital sooner or latter. The truth is those cheap junk blades do not work well in a table saw either. And in the mean time you will make crappy ripped edges. It is quite common for carbide tipped, wood working router bits to have a zero degree hook angle also.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

delber said:


> Ace. Do you have any router bits? You need to look at the end or top of the bit to see the angle. Refer to this page for rake angle. . .
> http://www.onsrud.com/plusdocs/Doc/index.html?model.code=TECH028


Well I apologize. I was confused with relief which is on the back side of the cutting edge not the front side. Yes, tools can have zero or negative rake angle.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

???



Acebird said:


> Reminder: accidents on a table saw are far less forgiving.





deknow said:


> Spend some time learning how to adjust the saw. If you don't know how to align the blade with the slots and the fence to the blade (and know how to check these quickly) you should not be using the saw. If you don't yet understand why you should never use the miter and fence at the same time you should figure this out before using a saw.





Acebird said:


> I do it all the time as a stop block. Nothing dangerous at all. You should learn.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

I must say I missed those posts. deknow you're exactly right. The allignment of the fence to the blade is very important. It will cause kickback if it's not alligned. I have used both a miter guage and a fence at the same time, but it is important how it's set up. I don't use the fence in the typical way. I have clamped a board to the front of the fence to be a stop (before I had a good chop saw that I now have) and pushed the board against that stop, then as you move the board into the blade it isn't against the stop any more. That way there's no binding when you cut through the part causing kick back. Perhaps not the best way to do things, but it worked and it was safe in my mind at least. I now much prefer the compound miter saw.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It is the best way to do things. You are using the fence as an adjustable stop as I said back in the beginning of this thread.

Now I will get technical. The blade should be aligned to the grooves in the table. The fence should be aligned to the groves in the table. the miter should be aligned to the groves in the table. It may not sound like a difference but it is.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

How is the finger Ben?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Thanks for checking in! It's feeling great and healing very well. Here's a pic from yesterday: 

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

westernbeekeeper said:


> ......It's feeling great and healing very well.....


Glad to hear it


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## Teal (Jan 30, 2014)

Ouchie! You told it so funny though! I'm glad you're okay and still smiling.


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## Teal (Jan 30, 2014)

Oh this is old....well still glad you're okay.


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## imthegrumpyone (Jun 29, 2013)

It's like it almost didn't happen by the looks of that finger. :thumbsup:


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

westernbeekeeper said:


> Thanks for checking in! It's feeling great and healing very well.


Cool. You'll be able to pick your nose again.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Mike, by the photo it looks like he did...


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