# Long term pollination for remote areas



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

The water barrels are unnecessary. Piling that much bee ware up at once would seem to be poor business in small hive beetle/wax moth country. I wish you well.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

What about bears? Remote areas here are almost certain to get taken by bears.


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Not sure what intending that there's "no honey for human consumption" has to do with not needing varroa treatments, or not. Whether you take honey for yourself, or not, has no bearing on whether the hive would have a varroa infestation. I never take any honey from my bees, and they've got varroa.

Moreover, in a really remote area without any current managed beekeeping, the act of bringing production (meaning non-feral) bees in with their almost-certain level of at least some varroa (and the associated virus loads) and then leaving them untreated would be irresponsible. It could easily spread varroa to a heretofore somewhat unaffected population of feral honeybees resulting in devatating losses to them. Particularly if the unmanaged colonies turned into collapsing mite-bombs.

Just my opinion on this. 

Enj.


----------



## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

enjambres said:


> It could easily spread varroa to a heretofore somewhat unaffected population of feral honeybees resulting in devatating losses to them. Particularly if the unmanaged colonies turned into collapsing mite-bombs.


Good point on feral honeybees.

About the varroa, clarification: Meaning that I would treat once a year and leave honey supers on while treating so it would go back to the bees. Varroa chemicals would be in the supers, thus not using them for human consumption.

For bears, I totally forgot about that... noted.

For water barrels.... I didn't mention that the land has acid mine runoff into streams/lakes, thus why I wanted to use rain barrels.


----------



## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

They will take the acid run off any day over fresh rain water...


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

A remote area will have North American native pollinators ( and feral bees) present at the carrying capacity of the habitat.

No need to add semi-domesticated pollinators, as they are superfluous, and have the potential to reduce the resident pollinator population.

What unoccupied habitat niche have you identified? Why is an un-natural copy of a tree cavity the limiting feature of the natural pollinator population? Nest sites are in superabundance in most Eastern Woodlands.

Study Liebig's Law and the concept of population limiting factor in Ecology ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebig's_law_of_the_minimum ). 

Many farmers ( orchards where Apple's must be thinned, or carrots spaced) have an intuitive understanding of limiting law.


----------



## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> What unoccupied habitat niche have you identified? .


There is a non profit agency that is doing tree planting on mined lands in Appalachia and I wanted to contribute to the project.

~Adam


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

angel said:


> There is a non profit agency that is doing tree planting on mined lands in Appalachia and I wanted to contribute to the project.
> 
> ~Adam


That doesn't answer the question. A foraging bee (or alternative native pollinator) travels 3 miles, and nest sites are (assumptively) in super-abundance. There is no need to add your bees to the ecosystem. The number of bees in a landscape of reclaimed mountaintop rubble and eastern woodland is limited by a factor irrespective of the presence of your hive box. If bee health is density dependent, then adding additional occupied boxes reduces the ecosystem fitness, just as leaving too many apples on the branch leaves them all undersized and moth eaten.

There are some species that are nest site limited (bluebirds and purple martins come to mind), but I don't believe bees in the Appalachian coal belt would be one.

Bees can be kept in apiaries commercially because their limiting factor (nectar+pollen) is in super-abundance in most agricultural landscapes with the migratory model.


----------



## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

angel said:


> There is a non profit agency that is doing tree planting on mined lands in Appalachia and I wanted to contribute to the project. ~Adam


What do bees have to do with planting trees? 
Most beekeepers will reccomend that a hive be inspected every 10-14 days and I guess most of us are finding it rather odd to leave hives behind in the forest for a half-a-year at a time.
I'm sure they'd rather receive a donation $heck being a non-profit.


----------



## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

Santa Caras said:


> What do bees have to do with planting trees?
> Most beekeepers will reccomend that a hive be inspected every 10-14 days and I guess most of us are finding it rather odd to leave hives behind in the forest for a half-a-year at a time.
> I'm sure they'd rather receive a donation $heck being a non-profit.



Pollination of black locust trees. 

and I do agree with you, a donation check would be right up their alley.

JW, that's the first I've heard of Liebigs law, thanks for sharing.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

JWChesnut said:


> Study Liebig's Law and the concept of population limiting factor in Ecology ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebig's_law_of_the_minimum ).



"The use of the equation is limited to a situation where there are steady state conditions, and factor interactions are tightly controlled."

This suggests that this applies in steady state, and the interactions are well understood, correct? How would varroa impact these basic assumptions? Are you suggesting that the bee population in the area in question is the same now as pre varroa? Seems that the time constant of the various populations needs to be considered and understood before applying concepts of steady state, right? Seems to me that the time constant of honey bees with varroa is very fast compared to that of black locust trees.


----------



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

I live in the coal belt of the WV area here, and I'm going to tell you now that there are very few actual "wild" bees around. That was one of the many things that got me into beekeeping here. We went many many years without seeing the first honey bee here. Sure there were natural pollinators around, but even they were in decline each year. The idea that there is a balanced source of pollinators here in this area is misguided in my opinion. I've been all over the woods, and talked to many people around this area, there are no swarms anymore unless they have come from managed hives. 

Leaving hives unmanaged for the most part, IMO is really not a good idea at all. Too many variables that can cause more problems later on if you ask me. If I were to want to donate pollination for these trees, I'd see if there was someone closer that could tend your bees while you were away if nothing else.


----------



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I came to the Northern Neck of Virginia about 12 years ago, Planted fruit trees and grew vegetables and kept a lookout for honey bees. There were no honey bees to be seen, plenty of brombus and lightning bugs doing all the pollination required, and this is not a coal belt either. I wish my honey bees would work as hard as the bumble bees as they are up early and work late.
Johno


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

http://www.researchgate.net/profile...pseudoacacia_L/links/00463529db960080dc000000

Honey bee handling behaviour on the papilionate flower
of Robinia pseudoacacia L.

Manuela Giovanetti • Giovanna Aronne


Abstract : Papilionate flowers, such as those of Robinia
pseudoacacia L., show tripping mechanisms that prevent
pollen release: only those bees which apply the right force
on petals induce pollen to be deposited on their bodies.
Apis mellifera is considered a poor visitor of such flowers,
since individuals are usually too weak to trip the mechanism.
========================================
Southeastern Naturalist 13(2):317-336. 2014
doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1656/058.013.0213

Logging Legacies Affect Insect Pollinator Communities in Southern Appalachian Forests
No Access

Michelle M. Jackson1,*, Monica G. Turner2, and Scott M. Pearson

Abstract

Many temperate deciduous forests are recovering from past logging, but the effects of logging legacies and environmental gradients on forest insect pollinators have not been well studied. In this study, we asked how pollinator abundance and community composition varied with distance from logging roads and elevation in old (logged >90 years ago) and young (logged 20–40 years ago) southern Appalachian forests. Insect pollinators were sampled at 15 previously logged sites along an elevation gradient at 5 distances from logging roads during summer 2010 and spring 2011 using pan traps. In summer, many pollinator groups were more abundant in younger forests and closer to logging roads, likely due in part to more light availability and a greater abundance of floral resources near roads. Total bee abundance was greater near logging roads, but only in younger forests, suggesting that the role of roads in providing nectar and other resources may diminish as forests mature. In spring, many pollinator families were less abundant at mid-distances (2–10 m) from roads compared to road edges (0 m), but abundances were generally the same at 100 m from the road as at road edges. Two important bee families, Apidae and Andrenidae, were strongly associated with high elevations in spring. Our results suggest that logging legacies may provide supplemental resources such as food and nesting sites to insect pollinators during the summer months especially, with the effects of roads often extending at least 100 m into young forests.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

AstroBee said:


> "
> How would varroa impact these basic assumptions?
> *Are you suggesting that the bee population in the area in question is the same now as pre varroa? *
> Seems that the time constant of the various populations needs to be considered and understood before applying concepts of steady state, right?
> Seems to me that the time constant of honey bees with varroa is very fast compared to that of black locust trees.


Absolutely not suggesting the "bee population is the same as pre-varroa".
The population of pollinators (taken as a multi-species guild) is fluctuating around the equilibrium population for the ecosystem. It is near carrying capacity. This is captured in the aphorism "Nature abhors a vacuum".

Carrying Capacity is troublingly tautulogical -- it is what it is, and is dynamic to any ecosystem condition. It does mean in the case of Varroa-affected bees -- which are density dependent -- that the carrying capacity has been reduced by the likelihood of colony death from V. invasion. The denser the colony pattern the higher likelihood of a varroa epidemic -- this is parameterized by Dr. Seeley's current research, but the concept long predates his studies. Adding a box to the landscape pattern simply raises the surrounding colony death rate, and the system returns to the previous balance.

None of the equilibrium carrying capacity theory applies to strictly agricultural systems, where strong inputs are used to maximize the limiting factor. Think migratory hives moving to the next nectar flow, and away from competition in dearth.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Interesting law there. Thanks for sharing here.
I would suggest to put only the survivor bees that are mite resistant there.
Make sure there is enough bee forage for them for the 6 months that they are there.
Bees cannot survive without foods and water, right. Many beekeepers just think that if they
just put a bee hive on a location they will survive and thrive there without concerning to the environment
that the bees are in. Other than the popular what else is blooming for a complete nutritional program for them?
Also suggest to plant the sour wood trees for them too.
In the beginning I will not put my bees there without knowing what they will encounter first. Trees take time to grow and develop
into a diverse ecosystem with other low growing forest plants too. Then put a few hives to experiment with continuous monitoring. 
Without monitoring them how do you know if they are still alive there? What else will support them after the popular? 
I will not send my bees to die there without knowing first. It is just to say I'm not throwing my money away at something unknown. 
Of course, you can gamble at it. I know I will not.


----------

