# FGMO Outline



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Greetings . . .

I recommend that anyone interested in FGMO, read the summary posted at: www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000041.html 

Using that summary and ALL posts/replies lised before March 9, 2003, I have made the following outline:

FGMO TREATMENT METHOD as of 3/10/03 per Beesource.com Bulletin Board

METHOD DESCRIPTION
Regular application of Food Grade Milerial Oil in the form of a 15 micron vapor, and regular application of emulsion treated cords.(000041) A highly effective treatment and mechanical control for Varroa and Tracheal mites(DW).

OIL DESCRIPTION
Food Grade Mineral Oil, also called Liquid Parafin, has a density of 0.86. A petroleum derivative that is odorless and colorless. Used widely in the food industry.(000041) May be purchased from pharmacy, as a laxative. Must be marked "U.S.P." One liter (33.8 fl oz) of oil will fog 7 colonies once-a-week for an entire season or make enough cord emulsion to treat 200 pieces of cord, 20" long. Enough cords to replace them every 2 weeks in 7 hives for 7 months.(000066) COST - Wal-mart Pharmacy, 1 pint (16 fl. oz), $1.62.(DW)

FOGGER DESCRIPTION
Burgess Propane Insect Fogger(000041), Model 1443. Made by Fountainhead Group, Burgess Products, 23 Garden St., New Your mills, NY. Use ONLY mineral oil in fogger, NEVER use emulsion. COST - Lowes Home Center, $59.96 plus 14.1 oz Disposable Propane Cylinder, $2.44.(DW)

CORD DESCRIPTION
20" long x 5/16" dia. (approx size of a wooden pencil)(DW) all cotton cords (mop strands).(000025) COST - Lowes Home Center, #24 Cotton Wet Mop Head Refill, $3.98 (150 cords, 3/16-1/4" dia x 32" long)(DW)

EMULSION INGREDIENTS
17 fl oz Food Grade Mineral Oil, 1/2 lb bees wax, 10-1/2 oz honey.(DW)

EMULSION and CORD PREPARATION
Melt wax and add to heated oil. Remove from heat, add honey and 60 cords. Stir w/ wooden spoon, soak cords well. Allow to cool. (000041) Storage method and shelf-life of cords. (?DW)
_____________________________________________

TREATMENT - FOGGER
Apply fog for 4 seconds through open Screened Bottom Board or through hive entrance.(000041)

WHEN to Fog
Begin fogging package bees about a week after installation.(000039)
Begin fogging established colonies as soon as bees are flying in spring.(?DW)
Do not fog when bees are clustered.(000054)
If not currently using FGMO treatment, you may begin at any time of the year.(?DW)
Fog when foragers are out of hive.(000041)
Fog may be applied during honey season.(000041)
Fog every week.(000049 & 000066)
Fog once-a-week in fall.(000058)
Fog every 2 weeks as long as the weather permits.(000046)
Fof every 15 days.(000041)

TREATMENT - CORDS
Place 2 (2x20=40") emulsion treated cords on top of frames (snake-crawl fashion)(000085) in each brood chamber and each honey super.(000041)
Four one meter cords. Two 40" sections of cords.(000099)

WHEN to apply Cords
Place cords on frames at time of installation of package bees.(000093)
In spring, replace cords as soon as it's possible to open hive.(?DW)
Replace cords every 2 weeks.(000066)
Replace cords when they are removed by the bees.(000041)
Cords may be applied during honey season.(000041)
Leave cords through winter.(000046)
Two cords required during a 15 day interval.(000099)
_____________________________________________

MONITORING
Use Screened Bottom Board (SSB) or Open Mesh Floor (OMF).(000041)
Use FGMO coated trays for collecting mites.(000041)
Maintain continuous monitoring.(000041) (Need to Explain how often)(DW)
Employ additional treatment such as Drone Brood Trapping.(000041)
Mite fall can be expected for several days after using fogger.(000041)
20 mites / 24 hrs on sticky board could be a medium to higher infestion.(000046)

MISC COMMENTS
Fogging, in combination w/ SSB and you will have zero mites in fall.(000049)
Honey season coincides w/ biggest brood build-up, which causes greatest number of Varroa. If no treatment in May to July, number of mites in July will be in the thousands.(000041)
Increased mite rates in late months of the year, (Sept, Oct?????) are caused by foraging bees (robbing) infested/dying hives. Have dealt w/ this situation by increasing the quantity of cords and stepping up fogging schedule.(000058)

Thanx
Dave W 


[This message has been edited by Dave W (edited March 10, 2003).]


March 13, 2003
GREETINGS . . .

A gift is often bestowed on someone who is worthy of honor and respect. That gift is always received with appreciation by someone who is honarable and respectable. An unsolicited and gratuitous gift is one that is given from the heart. A gift may be small, insignificant, or undesired, but when it is kindly accepted with gratitude, it can embolden a humble giver.

Most of you have offered praise and kind words for my FGMO outline. Thank You. My work was offered without any expection of acknowledgment. I had something to contribute, and without hesitation or regret, I shared what little I had. In the future, when I can help ANY of you, I will offer my hand. And, when I can help and failed to offer, please ask.

Eyeryone is blessed with many things; some have great minds, capable of complex thought. Others, can analyze and separate information. Most have trouble following directions if the details are not presented in an organized manner. I hope my outline can be used to great advantage by everyone.

I have added a six-digit number at the end of some of the statements in my outline. The number can be used to locate the original comment.
Example: This topic can be found At: http://www.beesource.com/ubb/FORUM11/HTML/000099.html 
Look for replies given by Dr. Pedro Rodriguez. I may have twisted, confused, or made many mistakes, so please point out the errors and I will change the outline. And, when Dr. Rodrigues posts his own, systematic listing of the most important points, I will delete this one.

Thanx and F.G.M.O. = For Get My Outline
Dave W

[This message has been edited by Dave W (edited March 13, 2003).]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Wow!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Hi Dave -

Thanks for your efforts in compiling this outline. The fact that it was compiled from a lot of different postings, some of which MAY not be accurate, I think it would be wise and considerate for Dr. Rodriguez to review it and give his comments to insure its accuracy. I think it is very important to make sure something of this nature be very accurate. Let's leave your original post alone and now open up the floor for comment and any additions or corrections and then we can update it as need be.

Regards,
Barry


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## Eich (Oct 25, 2002)

Excellent work !!!!!! Thanks


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## Russ (Sep 9, 2001)

I for One appreciate having ALL of the Info in one place. I think that this is great for reference or Printing providing it is O Ked by Dr. Rodreguez. Dale


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

This treatment looks to be alot of work...
Seems to me I remember reading Dr. Rodriguez's studdy results on the cords lasting up to 3 to 4 weeks and fogging once or twice a month,... Maybe Dr. Rodriguez can set this straight for us.

Ian


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## Juandefuca (Mar 16, 2000)

Hi Dave and all
First let me congratulate you on a sound effort to clarify or condense what was posted previously and left questions open for discussion. Another suggestion was the posting of a FAQ which you very adequately started 
I like to partake in few comments for further discussion. 
If one checks on the research previously accomplished , one could give credit to those and it would not take much more along those lines to reinvent the wheel . I am somewhat disappointed that not more researchers made the effort to help Dr Rodriguez in his thesis and prove to those standing at the bylines the value of the FGMO approach.
There is really not much I could say or add to your writ. 
The fogging and application can begin at any time .
The fogging can be done when bees are clustered , although the effect is reduced because of it 
Reason. I have noted the drop of mites on the BB outside the debris of the cluster in the area of food supply combs . This could indicate the presense of mites on the bee searching for food. 
The fogging can be done when all foragers are in the hive to catch varroa brought in from other colonies . 
The fogging does not have to be curtailed to one specific time of day . The nurse bees are more exposed when foragers are not present . An altenate application time is certainly in order . The re-installation of cords should be done when all emulsion has been removed , thus saving the cords and wastes no time for the bees to shred and transport the cotton.
There may be no noticable drop off after treatments in all cases . 
Even though ther are relatively few mites present during the months from april to late august / September , you will find an increase ( Not in all colonies ) from October to early Jan . ( Depending on climatic circumstances ) 'This indicates the requirement of continuous appication of primarily fogging since the the bees do not leave the cluster to clean the cords. 
They begin to works the cords with the advent of brooding. 
The final judgement is not cast in stone but depends on your location as well as the weather or climatic environments.
Compare your observations with other beekeepers in your locale . 
Finally : Your research or observations are as valid as any , as long as you do not be attempted to compose a fairy tale . One incident does not make it a rule . 
Thganks agin for your splendid post !
JDF


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello all. 
Yes, indeed, it is commendable that someone in the group of participants would take the trouble to "condense" to call it something, the sum total of eight years of work. And to top it off, not even considering to ask the originator to review it for accuracy. 
During past years, I have attempted to post promptly my findings as can be ascertained by consecutive reports on this web page. Since Barry's original and kind suggestion of offering the forum for posting, I have constantly stressed the need to read my test reports, and have strongly emphasized on the need of following the protocol (including measures) as established by those tests as being most effective. 
It is highly disappointing to find departures from these being recommended. For example, I emphazise that tests have shown that at least two one meter cords are required during a 15 day interval for optimum mite control. Two 40 inches x 5/16 inch sections of cords. (Granted a typographical error was made in my January 2003 ABJ ariticle, but an explanatory correction was submittted to this forum with apologies and a letter to the editor is being submitted to ABJ . 
I am disappointed with the distortion of facts in the forum. This can lead only in one direction, failures. 
I have Varroa-free honey bee colonies 
treated once a month with 4 one meter FGMO emulsion soaked cords and fogging, and on the contrary, I know of experiments that have failed when two half meter cords were used. My colonies are less than one half kilometer away from another beeyard heavily infested with Varroa which inevitably are transferred to my hives. But guess what, they do not take hold in my hives. 
Why? Consistency.
Everyone is entitled to do with their bees whatever they think is most suitable to them. I humbly suggest to those who depart from established procedures, please do not blame failures on FGMO and other methods presently employed for mite control.
Best regards.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I thought an open forum was for all to contribute thoughts, ideas, and findings. I have not noticed anybody else needing to ask approval before posting a reply on any subject matter. If the outline is incorrect, than somebody point it out and note the changes. Please spare me the egos.
I appreciate the effort to condense "8 years of research" as I do not have time to read every finding. I only want the steps to maximize my time and efforts.
To say someone can't take previously open given information, and add, comment, condense, or anything else is ridiculous. If the person made a mistake with the info than with constructive criticism in mind, make the corrective comments.
I am going to start FGMO treatments as the weather breaks and need workable info in a easy given format. Not 8 years of finding, posts, etc. 
I have never used FGMO, but have always kept an ample amount of crisco patties on my hives. I have no research, but have always thought that the crisco did alot to minimize mites in the hives. The FGMO methods seems just on pure reason to be a better way to spread an oil based mite control method. I look forward to positive results this coming year. 
I would also like to commend Dr. Pedro Rodriguez, as well as Dave W. and all who contribute to the bee world.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Dr. R.
Dave W deserved the spanking for being disrespectful, however your brain-child is now out in the cruel world. As an author I know a little of how that feels. Others will now "do their thing'" with the information. In defense of Dave, I think he was condensing the postings as well as your papers. I know I could have used such a succinct presentation when I began with FGMO. A few of us thought the emulsion went in the fogger! He has also highlighted some confusion about frequency of application(in the postings). He knew you'd read this thread and thus you are reviewing it now. Had he posted it on another site ... it would be unforgiveable.

Dave W. 
Thanks for a lot of hard work in trying to filter the wheat from the chaff in FGMO. You've started some discussion I fear. When that is over FGMO will be the better for it. For your information ... an authors work is his private property. If you sought to amend or embellish something I wrote, you'd have the same reaction. You have a spelling mistake in your post. How would you feel if I corrected it for you?

Juan,
Am I to understand that you fogged your bees all winter? In Ct I'm guessing my climate is similar to yours. How often did you fog? Did all your bees survive? Wetness is supposed to kill more bees than cold. Do you have any concerns that the moisture in the oil will chill the bees? I suspect we are on the verge of separate protocols for different climates. Has anyone else fogged in the cold?

Dickm


[This message has been edited by dickm (edited March 12, 2003).]


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Dave W
THANKS FOR TRYING, I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU DID.
Bill


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>I am disappointed with the distortion of facts in the forum. This can lead only in one direction, failures. 

Dr. Pedro Rodriguez, what would you expect, you are posting to a public forum.
Perhaps your studdies are as clearly defined as you suggest they are. 
I'm sure Dave W acted in complete innocence, don't get so defensive...

Ian


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## beekeeper28 (Nov 27, 2002)

I'm glad for the summary. I have printed the posting and finds and research and poured over them many nights this winter justto get me up to speed on the information from the last 8 years. I have requested before something like this summary. The summary version can be laminated and taken to the bee yard for reminders. Stacks of research and posting in the bee yard in OK become many leaflets of paper in the wind.


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## Russ (Sep 9, 2001)

I commend Dr. Rodrigeuz for his work trying to help ALL Beekeepers by posting his findings on FGMO. Apart from the obvious mistakes made in the outline the one thing that bothers me is Dr. Rodrigeuz has made plain several times is to purchase FGMO from STE OIL as they have the correct mineral oil [viscosity], and not to use mineral oil that can be purchased from the local pharmacy that may have additives in it. This is important because if you use the wrong mineral, this is the first step to failure and the whole process of using FGMO. Lets correct the Outline and repost it so we all do the process right. After all we are trying to control the mites, not argue amoung ourselves. My $.02 Dale


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

russ / $.02 Dale:

Where is the post that says "not to use oil from pharmacy"?

Please give me the following:
Forum Name or number (FGMO, Forum 11)
Six-digit Topic Number (000099)
Reply Date (March 13, 2003)

If Dr Rodrigues will verify the infomation, I will glady make any change.

Thanx
Dave W


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have seen the subject of FGMO from the pharmacy come up several times on this forum. The only caveat I've seen is to make sure it's not BABY oil or any othe form of mineral oil that contains fragrance. Baby oil is mineral oil. It's even the right viscocity and it WILL NOT WORK because the scent will totally mess up the hive. The kind sold as laxitive never has any fragrance in it.

If this is not correct this would be a good place for Dr Rodriguez to correct it.

My 2 cents worth. I understand that Dr Rodriguez deserves the right to correct the summary, but it is just that, a summary of what has been posted on this forum and I for one find it helpful in that I don't have to sort through all of the posts to find all of that information. I assumed all of the question marks were express invitations to Dr. Rodriguez to do just that. It was clearly not intended to be disrepectful of the work that the Doctor has done. I look forward to any corrections or simplifications Dr. Rodriguez can offer.

Again, I would like to say how much I, for one, appreciate the tireless and sometimes unrewarding work that has been done by you, Dr. Rodriguez. Thank you.


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## hoosierhiver (Feb 27, 2003)

i know that fgmo sold at a pharmacy is considered"pharmaceutical grade",i have presumed that it is the same or better than "food grade"?


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## Jorge (Sep 24, 2002)

I must say that the outline is great. I see no glaring mistakes (except perhaps the length of the cords to be used?).
However, what I really don't see at all is lack of respect in it. The man just offered a guide but did not requested copyrights on it. He certainly did not take ownership of the method. This is not a journal where materials are submitted, reviewed and then posted. It is a discussion group. In discussions, people say things and sometimes may say things that are not entirely right. That is the nature of human communication.
Perhaps I am saying nothing that was not said here before really, but I wanted to say what I think and that is how we talk about bee things here, at least it has been since I joined. 

Jorge


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>i know that fgmo sold at a pharmacy is considered"pharmaceutical grade",i have presumed that it is the same or better than "food grade"?

The issue is not the "grade" as long as it is food grade, which pharmaceutical grade is, but the two issues are added fragrance (as in the case of baby oil) and the viscocity (as in the case of FGMO sold for cattle feed etc.) It has to NOT have fragrance and it has to be the correct viscocity (thickness) in order to areosolize correctly.


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## Russ (Sep 9, 2001)

My point was this, WHY take a chance. Use what is recomended and give the process a fighting chance to work. It is not that hard to order what Dr. Rodregeuz has recomended. I ordered a gal. and that is enough to do a lot of hives. Dale


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## Juandefuca (Mar 16, 2000)

Kevin and all
The question of oil and mist particle size has been resolved in previous posts.
The recommended oil IS Either STE "Crystal 70O or PENRECO 35 . The drugstore medication is not neccessarily the correct one . 
The micron size is 15 .
STE ships in 1 Gallon containers . There is no commercial interest in either supplier by anyone on this forum as far as I know .
JDF


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## Juandefuca (Mar 16, 2000)

Kevin and all
Comprehensive information is found in "Point of View" when you open the website . 
The value of the Burgess fogger happens to be by coincidence the dispersement of 15 miron particles . If I am not mistaken I read this in the description of the fogger by the manufacturer also. Your question about Dr R. and his response . He may overwhelmed with mail and has to put some questions on the backburner since this info can be obtained through the bowels of the topics . One of the problems with forums is the abundance of topics in general . It's not only here but elsewhere . It can be just too much to follow . Other formats may be better but all of them have drawbacks. Do not be too jugemental . The DR has to tend his colonies also and as you well know , that takes time .
I have terrific respect for the creators and moderators of ebsites such as this . I would not be able to handle it since one of my handicaps is the inability to write with more than one finger and my nose , And on top of it ,I am a computer ignoramus . Oftentimes I have problems getting my posts posted .
Best regards
JDF


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Dave W wrote:

Where is the post that says "not to use oil from pharmacy"?

Dave -

The burden of proof is on you. Dr. R. has been very specific in his writings about what oil is to be used. I know he has never advocated using oil from the pharmacy that is used as a laxative. Just because someone else said it can be used doesn't make it correct. This needs to be changed on the outline.

Regards,
Barry


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>There is also a KNOWN explosion hazard associated with using the fogger and oils. That is the reason the Burgess Co. will have nothing to do with this. Have your foggers ever spit fire or flamed up for a second? You KNOW they do it-that is what will happen just before the flame goes UP the tube to the combustion chamber and BLOWS your hand off. This has been known and published since 1975.

Where is the hazard that it "blows your hand off" published? I, for one, would like to see it. If you are going to make statements like this, you should back them up.


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## John D. Smith (Mar 17, 2003)

I don't normally post, but I felt compelled when I read about the exploding fogger. For an explosion to happen you need the explosive substance under pressure or in a confined space prior to ignition. How does the fogger meet these requirements? You pull the trigger and release, then the fog comes out. Pressure will seek the path of least resistance. i.e. out the open nozzle, not back through a closed valve. If you (Kevin L.) are suggesting that the fire can travel back through the fogger and ignite the oil in the tank, that is incorrect. Fire needs oxygen to burn. You can throw a lit match on an open container of gasoline and it won't explode. It will burn, but there isn't enough oxygen for it to explode. The flames are from the volitized gas on the surface. This is the case for the fogger. The flames are from incomplete atomization of the oil. In may case, it happens once in a while when the fogger is heating up. I, for one, would like to see proof of your claims.
As for the "how-to" posted by Dave W., I say thanks. I've been looking for a step-by-step for a while. I come to this board because I'm a new beekeeper and I want information. I read posts here, ask local beekeepers and then do what I think is best. That's the bottom line, do what works for you. I think the bickering is a waste of our time and is frustrating for new people, like myself.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

This topic is sure getting passionate. I'm a little sceptical too, but I do have the respect not to throw my wet towel down and smother the beleivers. This is just an alternative idea to treat mites other than with chemical introduction. If you are that strongly against this treatment, then leave this forum becasue it doesent concern you. I still hold an interest in the FGMO treatment and thats why I participate somewhat in its discussion. I still believe it is progressing and might eventially become feasable to the commercial beekeeper.

Ian


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

"Tell them you drilled the fogger to allow MORE liqiid propane into the combustion chamber."

Did I miss something here?
I did not know that we had to modify the fogger. From what I have read, you gas and go. Could some one please point me to the discussion on modifying the fogger.


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## Russ (Sep 9, 2001)

To clear up one point, Liquid Propane is always at the bottom of the container and the GAS portion is always in the top portion. When using the 14 Oz. bottle on the fogger it is important that the fogger is ALWAYS held LEVEL. If you tip the burner end down then you have a good chance of getting LIQUID to the burner as the bottle that is attached to the fogger is already at an angle. If you use an adaptor and a hose and a larger propane bottle then it makes no difference as you are getting gas from the top of the container [unless you tip the bottle over]. I have worked in the Propane Industry for years, thus I know how propane should be handled. Dale


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>John, you have it right-but your explosion will be from liquid propane comming out the end-BURNING back up bringing in oxygen with it and exploding.

Kevin, I was wondering if you actually had any knowledge of any of this, but now I know you don't. I have worked with propane all of my life and I can assure you no burning can be "bringing in oxygen with it" back to the propane. It is the principle on which gas stoves and gas furnaces work that oxygen cannot go back up the pipe and even if flame started to it would run out of oxygen and to even start would require a negative pressure in the tank. What you are describing is the directly opposed to how propane gas works and why it works and why many of us have it in our homes. I was interested in your "explosion" reference because I thought you were describing the oil exploding. This is at least slightly (very slightly) plausible as there is oxygen in the oil chamber. But what you describe defies the laws of physics and is therefore ludicrous.

As to Barry's right to delete your post, he has every right to delete anything he likes. It is his board and it is a free country. Also, he is legally REQUIRED to delete it if it is slanderous and it certainly might be if there is proof that your claims are false. I believe you have now proven beyond any doubt that they are false, unless the laws of physics were changed while I was out.

Also, changing the size of a jet in a gas appliance is a very routine modification. It is done when converting from Natural Gas to Propane and back all the time. It does not make it any more or less dangerous, it merely changes the proportions of gas to air and burns cleaner or not or allows a hotter flame.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Ian is right ,this subject sure gets the heat up for some reason.Personally I get a kick out of it,just because things can get a bit dull around here.I happen to agree with some here who think the research done isnt top notch.But allowances have to be made.It is being done by a retired guy with no funding who is doing the best he can.The rest of the info being circulated on the internet (including mine)is just personal experience NOT proper experiments carried out with controls.Now my own personal experiments convinced me that under MY conditions mineral oil was an ineffective treatment.But that doesnt mean it wont work under YOUR conditions.More work needs to be done to show why it may sometimes work and other times not.I cant afford to use ineffective treatments,but others who can take this risk should continue trying to find out the variables involved.Maybe someone can help Dr.R write a grant application.I think lots of beeekeepers would write in support so we can quit argueing this over the net.
---MIke(just the facts please)


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Barry wrote:

"The burden of proof is on you. Dr. R. has been very specific in his writings about what oil is to be used. I know he has never advocated using oil from the pharmacy that is used as a laxative. Just because someone else said it can be used doesn't make it correct. This needs to be changed on the outline."

Check the Q & A in ABJ (March or April, I can't remember), the Dr. does mention that it is ok to use MO from the pharmacy as long as it isn't the baby oil that contains fragrances. 

------------------
Rob Koss


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Hi Rob -

You are right, sorry. I know Pedro has stressed in most postings that oil from commercial distributors is recommended to be safe, but drugstore MO is okay to if not scented.

Regards,
Barry


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I am all for freedom of speech, but no one has the freedom to make false accusations about another member on this Bulletin Board. I have deleted Kevin S Lunsford's posts due to the obvious breech of the Rules and Policies outlined when one joins this Bulletin Board. I will not let this BB degrade to the level it has been moving towards. We all are to remain civil with one another and proper decorum is expected. No, I'm not against pointed questions and difference of opinions, but some of the recent exchanges have gone beyond this. I remain interested in keeping the moderation to the absolute minimum on this board, but refusal to cooperate with board moderators or to abide by the rules is grounds for revocation of posting privileges. I hope it doesn't come to this here.

I asked Dr. Rodriguez to be a guest in this board so that we all could gain from his direct input to our questions and discussions. He doesn't have to be here, and frankly, the way some members dialog with him, I'm surprised he puts up with it. It's time for the direction of this thread to turn back around.

Thanks to the majority of the members for making this an enjoyable and informative board.

Regards,
Barry


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Loggermike, I appreciate that you shared your failure with FGMO. It is helpful to know how many people are having successes and failures. I have also heard from people who are having great success, but it's good to keep in mind that our circumstances may vary and if we don't do mite counts and pay attention we could lose our bees no matter what methods we use. My friend just lost his hive and he was using Check Mite. I just lost four and was using Apistan. We need to monitor regardless of the method.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Hi all -

I have decided it is time to instill some more guidelines to the BB to help keep the various forum topics on target. There is now a place on the board for all complaints about moderation and censorship to take place.
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000010.html 

Everyone is asked to use the forum above for that type of discussion. The way it's been going is too disruptive to the board members and the line of discussions going on in the forums. You are asked to take it there on your own. The moderators will not be responsible for this. If they deem your posting to be disruptive and out of place, they will simply delete it and expect you to post it in the appropraite forum above.

I am open to other suggestions in how best to handle this issue. It's open for discussion in the above forum. Sorry for this disruption in this forum and I apologize to Dr. R. that it took place here.

Regards,
Barry


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>.. My friend just lost his hive and he was using Check Mite. I just lost four and was using Apistan. We need to monitor regardless of the method.

Agreed.I hear a lot of bad news coming out of Florida,the coumaphos resistant mites are causing lots of hives to crash.Not unexpected,but the days of quick and easy mite control are ending.That is why I am still going to keep my fogger to experiment with.
--Mike


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## Juandefuca (Mar 16, 2000)

Meantime , Happy fogging 
JDF 
Sorry , the rest of the epistle just disappeared as many times before and I have not the guts to go throiugh this whole thing again .


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## Juandefuca (Mar 16, 2000)

Hi to all 
I will not comment on the propane behavior and the relative position as it applies to the fogger . It has been amply substanciated by knowlegable persons here on this forum . The loss of my post essentially repeated that what was quoted in the foregoing posts .
There is however another item which I did not see . 
The FGMO treatment came about AFTER the introduction of Varroa Jacobsconi and modified to V Destructor at a later date .
(Different "haplo" Type). 
All that came about after 1985 and I am at loss where this 1975 tale gets into the picture . I can only view this viewpoint as very unlikely and are suspicious of its value . 
In closing : There are always losses of colonies, otherwise there would be nothing but colonies and no room for humans or anything else. So we have to accept the fact that critters die even with the application of FGMO. That's just the way it is . 
Best wishes and happy fogging 
JDF


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
Never better said, I haven't the "foggiest" idea of what this 1975 issue has to do with FGMO as an alternative treatment for honey bee mites. I am extremely busy and have not been able to locate the reference to it.
I am very much interested in seen what it is all about. If someone has specific references, URL's, Links, etc., I would appreciate very much if these were pointed out to me. Better yet, if someone could, please, e-mail these to me I would be very grateful since it would save me the time I would spend in searching. 
Thank you so very much.
Best regards.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Someone made a claim without any evidence and when asked for a reference it was never produced. Don't waste you time looking for it.


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## Juandefuca (Mar 16, 2000)

"Honey house" observation
you have been informed by knowlegable person about the propane behavior . Absolutely correct.
What you encountered is a possible restriction of the propane gas to enter the orifice at the input end of the valve . ( The stem which opens the tire valve of the bottle or the apdapter , when used ). 
This is not one expects from a commercial product . However this is why you encountered a refernce to the "Modification". 
Go fix !
Happy beeing, JDF


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

JDF,
Is this "possible restriction of the propane gas" a major problem with the unit?
Is it just by chance that some units are somewhat defective?


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2003)

JFO Honey House I see you are having problems with your fogger As we all know Home Depot or Lowes Home Centers will exchange ANY item that you feel is not working or any is not to your satisfaction. I feel thats the route to take before trying to fix it yourself and finding yourself in a bind. I dont know where you purchased yous but ask about there return policy Happy foggin and good luck Frank


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## Juandefuca (Mar 16, 2000)

In refernce to your legitimite question I can make a comment to my experience only. 
The subject is certainly debatable . However , since this fogging device is at the moment the only one applicable , it has certain restrictions for replies of a negative expression toward this gadget.
I have been addressed by various beekeepers relative to the function and have provided them with possible modifications . Lacking the cooperation of the manufacturer you will have to take the responsibility upon yourself to get desired results . There are indications that there is a quality control problem and the other is the relative position . It was mentioned in this forum the gas versus liquid position whithin the small tanks which could have a disturbing influence of the flow . 
Nevertheless it did make no difference whether the a larger tank with a hose was used or the screw in bottle 
, the result was the same . At least in my case . 
Originally I just returned the merchandise and received a replacement . 
At the time I blamed myself that the thing malfunctioned . 
When the same problem appeared after a time of usage , I realised it was NOT my problem other than the blockage at the nozzle which was recognised and attended to ( See former post and retraction ) Having read other posts and private mail I am not the only one disatisfied with the function of the burner part of the fogger . 
After the drastic modification I have no more problems lighting and maintaining the burner function .
But the emission of the fog has increased beyond the need for our purpose .I have no problem with it since I am in control of the application. My advise to the members is that you try to modify the tool to suit your degree of tolerance for agitation and extend your point of patience-loss borderline , should you have any problem relating to the burner function. 
The fog application is the major tool for positive results and I would like to encourage you to naintain the use of the fogger by all means to your disposal .It took a lot of trials and errors to find this tool which brought the FGMO method to a usable application . Thanks to the tenacity of Dr P. Rodriguez we do have a chance to get a handle of a common problem where other methods have failed to this point ( Other than the small cell and genetics approach ) as we all become to realise . 
All this does not mean that I am on the right track claiming the ultimate solution . 
My time and resources are also limited and it behooves everyone to help out with good suggestions and explanations as it was demonstrated in some of the posts already. 
Meantime ; Happy fogging , ( if possible ) 
JDF


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