# Steps involved with regression??



## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

>>>Can you put bees directly onto small cell foundation (not small cell bees), and have them draw this foundation correctly?

You can, but its not likely. When you put them on small cell foundation (and not already drawn comb) they will generally step down a little and rebuild to 5.15mm cell size. Repeating the process with the same bees will hopefully complete the regression. There is the small chance that the bees will completely regress in one step on 4.9mm foundation and there is also a chance they won't draw any comb at all.

Completely drawn comb on the other hand is a differnet story. The bees and queen are often readily able to utilize the completed comb given to them and are fully regressed when a full brood cycle has gone to completion. Again there is the small chance the bees won't accept the comb at all.

>>>And if so, what is the talk of incomplete regression?

Incomplete regression equates to partial regression, it means bees using a cell size between 5.4mm and 4.9mm for worker comb. I suppose one could also include the queen in this, a queen not reared on 4.9mm or smaller comb could be considered a non-small cell queen.

>>>Is this because starter strips were used to let them draw thier own wax? and if so to that, whats the advantage of strips if several steps consisting of more time and effort being consumed, if in fact they will draw small cell foundation?

No this is using complete sheets of foundation. If you have access to complete combs of small cell, you have an distinct advantage. The plans for regressing an apiary given assume you do not have access to predrawn comb. This is a good assumption since small cell is still a practice in its infancy and a sliver of a minority of beekepers practice small cell beekeeping.

The only advantage to using strips is that the bees build comb from strips faster than drawning comb from foundation.

>>>I am hoping to install about 10 hives next month on small cell, with package russians. Is there any words of wisdom to make the process more successful?

Use predrawn foundatoin if you can. Use some of your hives right now to help draw out at least the 1st stage of regression comb for you. You can use this comb to "skip a step" in the regression process for the hives you plan to actually regress. Have patience because unless you already have small cell hives, you are starting from scratch and it will be a year or so before you have a fully regressed hive.

>>>Is there any problems with the queen (standard size) laying in a small cell, cell?

So far I think most poeple are reporting that the queens usualy don't have a problem laying in small cell. It turns out anyway that hives that have built their own comb NOT from foundation have worker brood cells between 4.6-5.4mm anyway, therefore she should not have any problem laying in 4.9mm combs. There are some who have reported a queen rejecting small cell outright though.

>>>I have had cases where bees have drawn drone cells over the worker foundation, completely ignoring the pattern offered to them. Is this a possibility with small cell, ie. just making the cells to thier liking, and has anyone seen this before?

You bet, that's why regression takes several steps, they sometimes can't figure out what to do with the comb at all and not only build large cell on top of it, but don't build any comb at all, just chew up the foundation a lot.

>>>Would there be a difference in putting bees directly on small cell, when having a choice between italians and russians?

I don't think it makes any difference.

>>>Since this foundation is wireless, should strips be used from an advantage point, other than just seeing what they are doing?

While performing the regression, having predrawn comb is best, full foundation 2nd best, and strips 3rd best. However they should all work. Strips allow the bees to build comb faster than foundation, so you have the opportunity to replace combs sooner. Plus if they reject the small cell outright, they can build whatever they want and some of it should be small cell and so there is some albeit slower progrss towards regression.

>>>I know this is alot and many of these questions have been asked, but still the questions persist. Thank you.

I think summing up a lot of prerequested answers into a summary of FAQs is never a bad thing.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You can put large bees on small cell COMB and they will regress on the first step. If you put large bees on small cell FOUNDATION they will not draw it to 4.9mm the first regression. The ones I've had did about 5.15mm first regression. You might get good 4.9mm on the second regression or it may take a third. Mine did fine in two.

When I have capturee a swarm of small bees they have done fine on 4.9mm foundation.


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi Bjorn,

I have read that some have package a hive directly onto small cell foundation and had success. Then on other post concerning small cell, I have also read about some having partial regression, incomplete regression, and then some with stepping the bees down.

reply:

Yes. From what I hear it has been with either "small cell bees" and some cases with russian packages and buckfast packages. This is not my personal experience but it was the experience of a few trust worthy fellow beekeepers.

Can you put bees directly onto small cell foundation (not small cell bees), and have them draw this foundation correctly?

reply:

Not usually except for the few incidents I mention above. Fow the most part regression most be done, every colony is an individual and will do accordingly so there is no exact rules either.

And if so, what is the talk of incomplete regression?
Is this because starter strips were used to let them draw thier own wax? and if so to that, whats the advantage of strips if several steps consisting of more time and effort being consumed, if in fact they will draw small cell foundation?

reply:

As I said not a few packages with the above stock have been known to regression on the first shot. So for the most part it would be wise to when startinging out to figure the bees will not go all the way on the first round. If you ask me there is not really any advantage to strips, other than you save some $$$ on foundation but you lose time in getting combs drawn. With strips you may find yourself running out of season before the hive is built up enough not to mention making much headway on second (maybe final) step down to 4.9.

I am hoping to install about 10 hives next month on small cell, with package russians. Is there any words of wisdom to make the process more successful?

Is there any problems with the queen (standard size) laying in a small cell, cell

reply:

Place a queen excluder under the colony to prevent absconding and to protect your investment. It only make sense to play it safe here. Remove the includer when the queen has a few frames layed up. Also with package bees I wouldn't do a shakedown either. Consider the package the shakedown. Then from there simply add foundations (a few at a time) to the center of the broodnest. Phase the larger combs to the outside as you go.

Is there any problems with the queen (standard size) laying in a small cell, cell?

reply:

Not really. I have only seen one exception of a giant queen I had that had difficulty. The bees superceded her and things went along as normal although this hive was a bit behind so I equalized it with a strong hive.

I have had cases where bees have drawn drone cells over the worker foundation, completely ignoring the pattern offered to them. Is this a possibility with small cell, ie. just making the cells to thier liking, and has anyone seen this before?

reply:

I sure have seen this in that the bees chewed the cell pattern off the foundation and made a big mess. I occurs less than 10% if I were to make a guess. I forget about these hives personally and just let them do there thing. Then later I had some 4.9 drawn combs and size them down that way.

Would there be a difference in putting bees directly on small cell, when having a choice between italians and russians?

reply:

I'd go for the russians as I have heard that some have gone straight onto 4.9. Never heard this with Italians though. But even still I wouldn't get my hopes up and plan on regressing as usual.

Since this foundation is wireless, should strips be used from an advantage point, other than just seeing what they are doing?

reply:

See what I said above. I would wire personally and go for full sheets of foundation. You can see well enough what they are doing this way. They do what they want anyways they have all the control in cell drawing. Also the way that my culling is set up I don't have to re-wire frames. Just render quick scrap and put new foundations in. But thats me ..........

I know this is alot and many of these questions have been asked, but still the questions persist. Thank you.

reply:

Ask away thats why we are here to help our fellow beekeepers.

Clay


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## raybo1331 (Apr 4, 2002)

i read that if you them in a three or four frame nuc ,on full 4.9 they will draw it right because theres just abrood area, where they normally draw worker brood smaller, never hurts to try. if this works just rotate frames out until your ready for a full deep, by then you should be getting some smaller bees. raybo1331


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

top bar guy said (if i understand him corectly) that most hives only draw out 6 frames of foundation in a year is this what some of you find how many frams do your hives draw out a year (if they are not regressed)?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>top bar guy said (if i understand him corectly) that most hives only draw out 6 frames of foundation in a year is this what some of you find how many frams do your hives draw out a year (if they are not regressed)?

Do you mean brood comb? any kind of comb? I've seen a package draw six or seven boxes of foundation in a year.

If you're trying to just draw comb, you can put a small hive in a five frame nuc with a miller feeder and keep stealing the frames 2 and 4 every day and put frames of foundation in and they will keep drawing it to try to fill in the brood nest out. You might be able to get up to 10 combs a week.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

top bar guy ment brood comb (4.9) i think.


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