# Single Brood Box Keepers?



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Mathematically, it is probably possible to do in an 8 frame deep but I believe it would be really difficult. With about 7,000 cells per deep frame, and 8 total frames, you would have 56,000 total cells available. According to another thread here on Beesource, once there is some honey and pollen on each frame you end up with about 4,800 cells available per frame for brood. That makes 38,400 total cells on 8 frames. If the queen lays 1,500 eggs per day over 21 days she would fill in 31,500 cells at any given time. However, if there is a lot of drone comb, their 24 day hatching period will take a lot more cells and if the honey flow is good, or there is a lot of pollen available, that will take up a lot of additional space. If she is a great queen and is laying 2,000 eggs per day, you would be screwed because there are not enough available cells. All this assumes that the bees will move through the excluder and put most of the honey and nectar above it. Sometimes, they don't want to. My best guess is that if you wish to try this, you will constantly be manipulating the boxes to make it work.


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## Kyeman (Apr 15, 2018)

dudelt said:


> Mathematically, it is probably possible to do in an 8 frame deep but I believe it would be really difficult. With about 7,000 cells per deep frame, and 8 total frames, you would have 56,000 total cells available. According to another thread here on Beesource, once there is some honey and pollen on each frame you end up with about 4,800 cells available per frame for brood. That makes 38,400 total cells on 8 frames. If the queen lays 1,500 eggs per day over 21 days she would fill in 31,500 cells at any given time. However, if there is a lot of drone comb, their 24 day hatching period will take a lot more cells and if the honey flow is good, or there is a lot of pollen available, that will take up a lot of additional space. If she is a great queen and is laying 2,000 eggs per day, you would be screwed because there are not enough available cells. All this assumes that the bees will move through the excluder and put most of the honey and nectar above it. Sometimes, they don't want to. My best guess is that if you wish to try this, you will constantly be manipulating the boxes to make it work.


Great info, thanks. Sounds like I would need to do 10s in order to make single BB effectively work, at least on paper. However, I'm still going to try it on one hive and see how it goes "for science".


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## SuiGeneris (Feb 13, 2018)

I keep mine in single-deeps, but I'm brand new at this, so I've got no advice to give. They do require more monitoring than a double-brood setup, in order to prevent swarming. You don't need to split to control though; supering and destroying queen cells is sufficient.

In terms of your setup, I have my doubts. A local beekeep (Devin Rawn) has a pretty good youtube page on maintaining hives as single deeps, and he goes into a lot of the factors you need to consider. That includes this video where he goes through the numbers regarding brood space. There is enough space in a 10-frame single-deep for broodrearing and stores, but I suspect an 8-frame would not have the space needed. You can do the calculations yourself, based on the numbers in his video, to confirm.

Single-deep broods are the "standard" around my parts, and there are a number of local beekeepers who have good youtube pages on maintaining hives in this format. I cannot recommend their videos enough - but I would also caution that I/they are in a very different climate, so their advice may not translate perfectly to Florida:

Devin Rawn
University of Guelph Honeybee Research Centre
A Canadian Beekeeper


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## Kyeman (Apr 15, 2018)

SuiGeneris said:


> I keep mine in single-deeps, but I'm brand new at this, so I've got no advice to give. They do require more monitoring than a double-brood setup, in order to prevent swarming. You don't need to split to control though; supering and destroying queen cells is sufficient.
> 
> In terms of your setup, I have my doubts. A local beekeep (Devin Rawn) has a pretty good youtube page on maintaining hives as single deeps, and he goes into a lot of the factors you need to consider. That includes this video where he goes through the numbers regarding brood space. There is enough space in a 10-frame single-deep for broodrearing and stores, but I suspect an 8-frame would not have the space needed. You can do the calculations yourself, based on the numbers in his video, to confirm.
> 
> ...


Devin Rawn is actually one of the reasons I started looking into it. A lot of good info in his videos. Thanks for posting!


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

I’m learning fast and started in May. I’m in a four season climate and decided on a 10 frame single deep brood box setup for simplicity and practicality. My climate compares to Ontario where Devan keeps his bees. The management is more active but the diagnostics are easier. If I have an issue I have only one place to look. My weekly inspections are fast but careful. I see a lot of new people getting lost in their boxes so I made the decision early on to find a style of management that suits me. Beekeeping is about problem solving. Problem solving for one box is much simpler. August was about mite control. September is about fall feeding, nutrition and preparing for winter.


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## Kyeman (Apr 15, 2018)

LAlldredge said:


> I’m learning fast and started in May. I’m in a four season climate and decided on a 10 frame single deep brood box setup for simplicity and practicality. My climate compares to Ontario where Devan keeps his bees. The management is more active but the diagnostics are easier. If I have an issue I have only one place to look. My weekly inspections are fast but careful. I see a lot of new people getting lost in their boxes so I made the decision early on to find a style of management that suits me. Beekeeping is about problem solving. Problem solving for one box is much simpler. August was about mite control. September is about fall feeding, nutrition and preparing for winter.


Exactly, I am by all means a new beekeeper. I started my bees off in a single brood box (as one does) and it was amazing having everything so accessible. For me, it is much easier to do short and often inspections than do long tedious inspections. Less time for the bees to get pissy and really easy to diagnose and quickly glean the health of the hive.

It sounds like the challenges that come with single BB is swarm prevention and being smart about feeding in winter/slow months. If I take my supers off and leave the girls with nothing (because the brood box is pretty much only brood and pollen). I run the risk of not only starving them, but also not giving them the start then need to build up in spring.

So far, I have only heard from Northern keepers on this subject, really interested to hear from some in warm climates.


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

The advantage we have as new beeks is not having any limitations. I don't confuse longevity with success. The success of a beekeeping class can be measured by how successful the students are. If I hear about lots of swarming, confusion and mite infestation that's not a successful teacher in my book. My mentors are the virtual Michael Palmer and Randy Oliver. And I'm sassy enough to argue with them if it's in the best interest of my bees.


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## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

My 2 cents, I gave it a go this year on 15 hives. Every one of them swarmed even with weekly checks. It requires a lot of attention, which means time and effort, which is what I was trying to save in the first place. I’m not giving up on it, but approaching it differently next year. 2 boxes in the spring build up, then moving all brood into the 2nd box, shaking all bees into the bottom box onto 5-6 empty combs and QE between them. She just needs a ton of space in the spring.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

I run single deep brood chambers and super with deeps also I use all 10 frame deeps. Swarming is all but unheard of in my apiaries. If you run single deep brood chambers and your bees are swarming you are doing something wrong. Drawn comb is essential in running single brood chambers and placing supers of drawn comb in a timely fashion. Deep 8 frame single brood chamber is definitely doable but will require you to be sure the queen has empty cells to lay in requiring your inspections to be every week rather than every 2 weeks. When you run single brood chambers move capped brood above the excluder and place drawn comb with empty cells in it's place and super in a timely fashion that's all the swarm control necessary. When the queen has no open cells to lay in is where the risk of swarming comes into effect regardless of your hive configuration.


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## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

What I did wrong was underestimating how quick she will run out of space in that single brood box. It’s that constant cycling out of full frames that’s the key. You need lots of empty drawn comb on hand. And no drone comb either. Going into 15 hives every 5 days to shuffle frames around ended up being a bit much for me, especially with 15 other hives to get to. I just don’t have that kind of time. I’ll modify the system to fit my schedule and the hives’s schedule.


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## Kyeman (Apr 15, 2018)

Slow Drone said:


> I run single deep brood chambers and super with deeps also I use all 10 frame deeps. Swarming is all but unheard of in my apiaries. If you run single deep brood chambers and your bees are swarming you are doing something wrong. Drawn comb is essential in running single brood chambers and placing supers of drawn comb in a timely fashion. Deep 8 frame single brood chamber is definitely doable but will require you to be sure the queen has empty cells to lay in requiring your inspections to be every week rather than every 2 weeks. When you run single brood chambers move capped brood above the excluder and place drawn comb with empty cells in it's place and super in a timely fashion that's all the swarm control necessary. When the queen has no open cells to lay in is where the risk of swarming comes into effect regardless of your hive configuration.


Interesting, so you would check every week or so and if she looked packed out or close in the brood box then you would throw a couple of frames up into the super. Resulting in them hatching out and those frames getting backfilled with honey while the queen has a couple of empty frames to have her way with. Makes sense, sounds like I need to get my hands on some spare comb...

Where would the frames you removed from the super go (assuming they aren't ready for extraction)?

Thanks for the insight.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

You got it! It's just that simple less work in the long run also. If I pull from a super it goes in the extractor shortly afterwards. When you put the first box of drawn comb on you pull 2 frames out to put in the brood box then take the 2 frames of capped brood from the brood box move them up into the super. With this method what you end up with is nothing but frames of brood in the brood box


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## Kyeman (Apr 15, 2018)

Slow Drone said:


> You got it! It's just that simple less work in the long run also. If I pull from a super it goes in the extractor shortly afterwards. When you put the first box of drawn comb on you pull 2 frames out to put in the brood box then take the 2 frames of capped brood from the brood box move them up into the super. With this method what you end up with is nothing but frames of brood in the brood box


I should have clarified, what if there are no frames from the super that are ready for extraction. For example what if you only have frames of uncapped honey? I see that you are trying to get a "frame cycle" going, but I'm just trying to think of different scenarios. Thanks again!

EDIT: Sorry, lots of questions. If you are not in a flow and do not have supers on, I guess you just split as needed?


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Same thing move 2 frames up and 2 frames down. If they have all frames filled with nectar and honey you need to add another honey super anyways.


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## Kyeman (Apr 15, 2018)

Slow Drone said:


> Same thing move 2 frames up and 2 frames down.


They have no problem clearing out the uncapped honey fast enough to get the queen laying in time?


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

The frames of open cells you're feeding in always come from the box you are putting on. As an example on the black locust flow this year First honey super I put on I took 2 frames of drawn comb out and swapped it with 2 frames of brood from the brood box and put the super on. 5 days later Once the first super was full of nectar and honey I put another super on again pulling 2 frames of open cells and swapping for 2 frames of capped brood 7 days later I repeat the same process and 7 more days after that repeat. I like to under super so keep that in mind also.


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## Kyeman (Apr 15, 2018)

Slow Drone said:


> The frames of open cells you're feeding in always come from the box you are putting on. As an example on the black locust flow this year First honey super I put on I took 2 frames of drawn comb out and swapped it with 2 frames of brood from the brood box and put the super on. 5 days later Once the first super was full of nectar and honey I put another super on again pulling 2 frames of open cells and swapping for 2 frames of capped brood 7 days later I repeat the same process and 7 more days after that repeat. I like to under super so keep that in mind also.


Right, I just have my doubts that I will have that big/long of a flow. Then what about when it is between flows? In my area we tend to have a slower but longer flow. I guess this is where the spare pulled out frames come in?


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## Rocky Mt High (Mar 22, 2014)

I'm looking forward to trying a single brood box management system next year, and thank you for this information! 

One question---it sounds like both Kyeman and I have the challenge of not having drawn comb. In that case, does adding frames with foundation just slow things down or does it mess things all up? It seems like if the bees are in the mood (spring, flow) they will draw the foundation super quick, especially if it's added in the heart of the brood nest. Thoughts?


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

It's not the 8 frames of brood you have to worry about. It's how full the super above them is with feed. I have Fl comm. beekeeper in my area running in 8 frame singles, but they always have a feed super above.


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## Blueflint (Apr 19, 2016)

I experimented with single brood chamber 10 frame deep hives this year, I tried two hives this way. It definitely takes some attention but it is actually fast since you only have to deal with one brood box. It works good. Pulling a couple frames of sealed brood above the Queen excluder quickly teaches the bees to pass thru it too. This was a late, cool, wet and odd spring, swarms were a month to 6 weeks late in Ohio. The two brood boxes I tried as singles never swarmed, they had a few cells started and I kept them scraped out. 

Now I am deciding how to approach winter. I have over wintered singles a couple times and think I will try again this year. We are in a very good Goldenrod flow right now. I will pull all my supers in a couple weeks and allow them to finish back filling the single box. I will feed extra if needed.

Overall, I liked the single brood box system this year and will continue playing with it next year.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

With due dillegence, an 8 frame brood chamber is feasible. We have run single deeps since at least the 1930's, can't prove earlier.

Crazy Roland


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Roland do you find it necessary to run a feed super above the brood? Just curious is why I ask, have never had to myself


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## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

Bit of a hijack, but since I tried and failed this year, and am learning what I did wrong, I hope it helps the OP. So, come spring, that deep is getting laid full, I pull 2 frames of sealed brood, move it above the QE and replace with empties. Do that again 5-7 days later, but put the new super on top of the brood box (under supering). Repeat as needed thru spring build up and flow. Sound right?

Further question for those doing it: obviously you need new combs built too, are you dropping foundation frames into the brood chamber as well? That’s going to slow the rate of moving frames up since they have to draw them, it might also further limit the brood nest since the queen can’t lay in them until they are at least started on being drawn out.

And one more: I can see converting to all deeps, but I’ve got a bunch of mediums too. Any thoughts on dropping medium drawn frames into the brood chamber for her to use for a week? They might start drawing comb off the bottom of the frame, but we are jjust talking a week at most to give her somewhere to lay, then moving it up and out.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

deleted


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Beebeard said:


> And one more: I can see converting to all deeps, but I’ve got a bunch of mediums too. Any thoughts on dropping medium drawn frames into the brood chamber for her to use for a week? They might start drawing comb off the bottom of the frame, but we are jjust talking a week at most to give her somewhere to lay, then moving it up and out.


You could make up a few units comprised of 2 mediums for the brood chamber and mediums for honey supers.

Alex


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Slow drone, I am not sure what a "Feed Super" is. Our season is rather short, with a very little slow down in August before Goldenrod. Once Dandelions bloom, they should be good to go..
.

Crazy Roland


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Post #20 refers to a feed super not sure either Roland didn't make sense to me.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

At one time the bottom box in the stack was called the brood chamber, the place where all the young bees were raised. The box just above the brood chamber, the one to be left for the bees winter food when overwintering in two boxes, was called the food chamber. You will see these terms in the older beekeeping books and still hear them used by beekeepers in this area that started in bees in the 70s and before and learned them from the "Oldtimers."


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Beebeard said:


> And one more: I can see converting to all deeps, but I’ve got a bunch of mediums too. Any thoughts on dropping medium drawn frames into the brood chamber for her to use for a week? They might start drawing comb off the bottom of the frame, but we are jjust talking a week at most to give her somewhere to lay, then moving it up and out.


I use a deep square dadant as brood box. Before main flow put a medium on top, or two ( I split once in spring, have no "production hives).

To use medium frames in the broodbox if needed ( mostly for feeding) and not getting comb underneath, as they will do in two days in spring expansion with a good flow, I have taken off the ears of some frames. So I can combine two mediums to use as a deep frame, wire it together.
If I want to use it as medium again, I put in screws as ears.
I have only outyards but can do this actions any time. Always take a screwdriver, screws and some wire with me and a wire cutting tool.
No problem if there is honey in the frames or not. Works beautifully and the bees propolise the screws immediately.

If this is not possible I would use a board wired underneath the shorter frame to avoid comb building there.



> I will pull all my supers in a couple weeks and allow them to finish back filling the single box. I will feed extra if needed.


That´s what I do in august ( unique climate situation). If they have crystallized honey in the medium on top because I waited too long with harvest I leave it on for winter. 
The fall flow will be stored in the deep then.


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## NECTAROLOGY (May 15, 2016)

I run 2 colonies in a single hive (Nat Hive). Each queen is in a 6 frame queen compartment. During swarm season, a demaree (2-3 frames) is done on each side every 10 days to prevent overcrowding. No lifting or removing of supers to do the demaree since all frame are accessible below the queen excluder. Love small brood chambers because easy to inspect and to assess queen status/ productivity quickly. Check it out at www.twoqueenhive.com. Would love to hear feedback. 

George


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

AR Beekeeper said:


> At one time the bottom box in the stack was called the brood chamber, the place where all the young bees were raised. The box just above the brood chamber, the one to be left for the bees winter food when overwintering in two boxes, was called the food chamber. You will see these terms in the older beekeeping books and still hear them used by beekeepers in this area that started in bees in the 70s and before and learned them from the "Oldtimers."


Thanks for joining in on this thread AR! Yes understood a food box above the brood chamber for overwintering. I may be misunderstanding post #20 but I think he is referring to a food box during a flow which I don't find necessary may be a regional thing. Myself I don't overwinter doubles only singles. What might be your understanding in regards to post #20 AR? Maybe Honey Householder will chime back in for more clarification. Others joining in on the thread please keep in mind the OPs question is in reference to running an 8 frame deep single brood chamber.


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## NECTAROLOGY (May 15, 2016)

A good laying queen will lay on 2-3 deep frames per week (1500-2000 eggs per day) under ideal circumstances (plenty of resources...food and nurse bees). Single deep brood chamber (5, 6, 8 or 10 frames) require some manipulation every 10-14 days to prevent swarming. There are many benefits of the demaree swarm prevention method.. the only draw back is that requires a fair amount of work but the rewards is significant honey production. George


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

My reading of post #20 is that those commercial beeks were using 8 frame brood chambers and they used the box immediately above as food during the flow, always having it available for the bees use.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Thanks AR:thumbsup:


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Slow Drone said:


> Post #20 refers to a feed super not sure either Roland didn't make sense to me.


Most comm 8 frame guy us a super above the queen excluder that has a frame feeder in it for feeding between flows. They don't want to run 6 frame with feeder in the brood nest. By running the feed in the super they can still run 7 frames in the brood box.

I run 10 frame equipment. 8 frames and a frame feeder. Been running singles for over 25 years now.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Thanks Honey Householder!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

And there you have it. 

Crazy Roland


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