# 9 frames or 10 in the brood nest?



## Hartz (Sep 4, 2010)

Just wondering if you commercial guys run 9 frames or 10 in the brood box (or boxes) and what the advantages or disadvantages are. Thanks.

Hartz


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

My opinion

10 frame-

PRO-You will get more frames of brood per box, the comb stay straighter, you don't have combs that are really fat on top from capped honey(like using 9 frame) that cause trouble when "swapping" frame positions, tight comb in the box will have less movement when in transport so you lessen the chance of killing a queen.

CON-If you don't figure out the trick to removing the first frame when they are tight together and/or your frames are poorly assembled you will destroy more frames removing them.

9 frame-

Pro-It's easier to remove the frames

Con- see the above PRO for the 10 frame


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

10 in the brood chamber. 

10 is one more than 9, more is better (we run one deep)
When you are done, push the frames all the way away from you. Next time, pru the closes frame twords you, and the will be room to get it out. My son prefers removing the second frame in, it is operator descresion(sp?).

Roland


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

hi
pro 10-keeps the best combs.
must use 10 for fdn.
con 10-harder to remove frames.

pro 9-10 per cent more frames available.
easier to remove frames.

we use 9 frames. after working push each outside frame toward the center to create an equal space between both hive wall and frame on each side. this leaves a litte extra room between frame and wall but is not a problem. as far as moving it will not kill bees as the frames are tight and good combs are maintained. our bees go from ny to sc each year and no bees are killed. this is almost an old wives tale. so start with 10 and drop to 9.

good luck,beeware10


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

10 frames in brood box - you get more brood
10 frames in honey supers to get more drawn comb first couple of years
Later 9 frames in supers, you get more honey, and easier to extract


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

there is an old saying around here. 10 frame is for those who dont work bee hives. just my opinion but i dont see any advantage to running 10 frames in a box. but what do i know, i'm just an amatuer.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

Im more or less a newbie too. 

If you use nine in brood chamber you will see how much space is wasted when you pull a frame and see how much shallower the brood section is drawn compared to the honey above it. brood cells do not need great depth. There are some who even shave their end bars down a bit so they can run eleven, maybe even twelve. I run nine and ten. It just depends on whether I have newer frames or older drawn frames in the box. I also like my nine frame spacer. I also dont like rolling bees (especially my queens) when I pull frames so the ease of pulling frames out weights another frame of brood to me and the fact that they usually dont run brood on outside frames and that I run two deeps for brood makes me believe there is no real advantage to ten or eleven. The only advantage I can think of is more bees needed to keep brood warm cause of un-needed vacant space in-between frames.

Walt Wright has some interesting opinions on the matter you might find interesting.

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/nine-frame-brood-chamber-never/

i probably should read it again.

If my memory serves me he claims that running 9 frames in one box them 10 in the other creates a traffic jam when bees come in from foraging flights or whatever they are doing and have to navigate around top bars and end bars that do not line up. So depending on your take on this you may want to run all ten or nine top to bottom. Once my frames are drawn, I like nine everywhere. Once your frames are drawn and you remove one they add up and fill boxes. Not that you save a ton of money but it helps whether it really works mathematically or not.


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## PDG honey (Jul 31, 2010)

I work for a commercial beekeeper and we run 9 frames on our singles and doubles. This is because rolling of bees when we pull frames from a deep that has 10 frames in it. We take away the 10th frame after they have drawn it out and create more hives with the spare frames. We also work other beekeepers hives with 10 frames in the deep. The common problem with those is disturbing the hive to much when you carefully remove your first frame and not being able to find the queen. If you squash the queen pulling a frame from your hive and don't have a spare mated queen on hand. The brood will decline anyhow. Being in the queen producing buisness this is annoying.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Anybody ever heard of "Bee Space"?
If my memory serves me correctly, Rev. Langstroth understood it before the rest of us.
Oh, and he also invented the 10 frame end bars to maintain perfect bee space from frame to frame.
If you go to 9 frames, the space between comb will still be the same as 10 frames once the bees draw it out, so the argument about rolling bees is dismissed.
Also, and the main point; when you go to 9 frames, you undermine the end bar's perfect spacing between frames. The bees then fill the gap between end-bars with whatever hodge-podge wax filler.
From there, when you move frames around, or from hive to hive, your bee space is ?????
Rev. Langstroth designed the frames for 10 per 10 frame box to maintain proper bee space.
When you go to 9 the bees just draw deeper comb, however, you have no absolute control of bee space when you shuffle frames.
More bees will be smashed in 9 frame management due to goofy frame spacing than in proper 10 frame absolute end bar spacing.
All of our hives are 10 framers.
Finally, I often hear that it, "Takes a stick of dynamite" to pull frames from a 10 frame hive.
That statement only indicates to me that you need to check on your bees more often.
Don't make excuses; make healthy honey bee colonies!
Thank you, Rev.Langstroth!!!!


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## PDG honey (Jul 31, 2010)

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-vi...chamber-never/

This was a great study. Everyone should read and learn the advantages and disadvantages. Mr. Russell of Russell apiaries had told me pretty much the same thing as the article.lol He also told me to make sure all the 9 frame spacers were installed in all the new deeps as well.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

9 in brood boxes, pushed to the middle.

8 in honey boxes, spaced evenly.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

I run a little bit of both, one of the commercial guys we occasionally get nucs from runs 9 frames. You can run 9 with foundation as long as you have more drawn than foundation, space the drawn farther apart, and squeeze the foundation ones closer together. I roll a lot of bees with 10 when the frames have a lot of burr comb and the end bars are propolised (sp!!) up. 
Bottom line, do what works for you! 

Mike


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

Since this is a section for commercial beeks

Feeder + 8 frames in each brood box

We feed because we are in the live stock manement & pollination business.

we feed & we make new hives all the time, need a little space to move frames around.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I shave them down and do 11 in a ten frame box and 9 in an eight frame box.

"...are placed the usual distance, so that the frames are 1 9/20 inch from centre to centre; but if it is desired to prevent the production of drone brood, the ends of every other frame are slipped back as shown at B, and the distance of 1 1/4 inch from centre to centre may be maintained."--T.W. Cowan, British bee-keeper's Guide Book pg 44 

"On measuring the combs in a hive that were regularly made, I found the following result, viz; five worker-combs occupied a space of five and a half inches, the space between each being three-eights of an inch, and allowing for the same width on each outer side, equals six and a quarter inches, as the proper diameter of a box in which five worker-combs could be build...The diameter of worker-combs averaged four-fifths of an inch; and that of drone-combs, one and one-eight of an inch."--T.B. Miner, The American bee keeper's manual, pg 325 

If you take off the extra 3/8" on the last one this is 5 7/8" for five combs divided by five is 1.175" or 1 3/16" on center for each comb.

"Frame.--As before mentioned, each stock hive has ten of these frames, each 13 inches long by 7 1/4 inches high, with a 5/8 inch projection either back or front. The width both of the bar and frame is 7/8 of an inch; this is less by 1/4 of an inch than the bar recommended by the older apiarians. Mr.Woodbury,--whose authority on the modern plans for keeping bees is of great weight,--finds the 7/8 of an inch bar an improvement, because with them the combs are closer together, and require fewer bees to cover the brood. Then too, in the same space that eight old fashioned bars occupied the narrower frames admit of an additional bar, so that, by using these, increased accommodation is afforded for breeding and storing of honey."-- Alfred Neighbour, The Apiary, or, Bees, Bee Hives, and Bee Culture... 

"I have found it to be just that conclusion in theory that experiment proves a fact in practice, viz: with frames 7/8 of an inch wide, spaced just a bee-space apart, the bees will fill all the cells from top to bottom with brood, provided deeper cells or wider spacing, is used in the storage chamber. This is not guess-work or theory. In experiments covering a term of years. I have found the same results, without variation, in every instance. Such being the fact, what follows? In answer, I will say that the brood is invariably reared in the brood-chamber -- the surplus is stored, and at once, where it should be, and no brace-combs are built; and not only this, but the rearing of drones is kept well in hand, excess of swarming is easily prevented, and, in fact, the whole matter of bee-keeping work is reduced to a minimum, all that is required being to start with sheets of comb just 7/8 of an inch thick, and so spaced that they cannot be built any deeper. I trust that I have made myself understood; I know that if the plan indicated is followed, beekeeping will not only be found an easier pursuit, but speedy progress will be made from now on."--"Which are Better, the Wide or Narrow Frames?" by J.E. Pond, American Bee Journal: Volume 26, Number 9 March 1, 1890 No. 9. Page 141 

Note: 7/8" plus 3/8" (max beespace) makes 1 1/4".
7/8" plus 1/4" (min beespace) makes 1 1/8".

"But those who have given special attention to the matter, trying both spacing, agree almost uniformly that the right distance is 1 3/8, or, if anything, a trifle scant, and some use quite successfully 1 1/4 inch spacing." --ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture by Ernest Rob Root Copyright 1917, Pg 669 

"With so many beginners wanting to know about eleven deep frames in a 10 frame deep Langstroth brood chamber I will have to go into further details. But first this letter from Anchorage, Alaska of all places. For that is as far north as you can keep bees. He writes, I'm a new beekeeper with one season's experience with two hives. A good friend is in the same boat he had read one of your articles on "Squeezing" the bees and tried one of his hives that way result a hive full of bees and honey. This year we will have eight hives with eleven frames in the brood chamber." 

"If you, too, want to have eleven frames in the brood chamber do this. In assembling your frames besides nails use glue. It' a permanent deal anyway. Be sure your frames are the type with grooved top and bottom bars. After assembling the frames, plane down the end bars on each side so that they are the same width as the top bar. Now drive in the staples. As I mentioned last month make them by cutting paper clips in half. They cost but little and don't split the wood. Drive the staples into the wood until they stick out one quarter inch. The staples should be all on one side. This prevents you from turning the frame around in the brood nest. It's a bad practice and it upsets the arrangement of the brood nest. It is being done, but it leads to chilling of brood and it disturbs the laying cycle of the queen. I am talking to beginners, but even old timers should not commit this bad practice. As for the foundation, if you use molded plastic foundation just snap it into the frame and you are ready to go."-- Charles Koover,Bee Culture, April 1979, From the West Column.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

10 frames vs 9 frames.
By running bees with 9 frames you can increase your frame count by 10%.
9 supers will yield 9 frames for another super of 9 frames which equals 10 supers.
Ernie


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We do the 8 frames and a feeder in the brood boxes also. maybe you could get a 9th frame and still get a plastic feeder in there but it would be a bit snug. Not going to argue with MB he is way more analytical than me but you would have to do your feeding externally with pails, not a bad thing just dosent work in our operation. As far as honey supers we used 8 frames for years but just recently went to 9 frames and really like it. The main advantages being that with less burr comb between the frames they go through the uncapper much better and the other being that the frames stay in place in the empty boxes and space much easier.


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## Hartz (Sep 4, 2010)

Thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge and expertise. 
That's what make this forum so great; to be able to benefit from the years of experience of others!

Hartz


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I trim my brood frames to 1 1/4 wide, and I try to run 11 frames in a box. There is very little burr comb between frames, which makes it much easier to manipulate frames. This also gives me 10% more comb over 10 frame spacing, and 22% more comb versus 9 frame spacing.

Regardless of how many frames you run, pull an outside frame first and then work your way in.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I run the bees just for honey production in single 9 or 8 frames w/ feeder. Like Greg said, you have to be able to work the hives. Only run ten frames when drawning new boxes of foundation.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

I also use a frame feeder. I have found with my frames you can not get the feeder and nine frames in. what else I have found though is if you use your nine frame spacer for the eight frames before you put in the frame feeder, you end up with the exact space you need for the frame feeder. The reason I like this point is that my frames all still line up top to bottom.

I also want to point out that before I used a frame spacer it seemed like I could never get everything spaced out evenly and burr or bridge comb was the result. Using the spacer has pretty much eliminated that problem.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

I had one of those SS frame spacing tools, but I lost it this summer while working for a friend. I did not want to by another, so I use my fingers. My thumbs and index fingers are the same size as frame spacer fingers. Works really good. 

mike


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Seeing as this is in the commercial section I suspect you are wanting to know how commercial guys do it. Us and most commercial guys I know run 9 in the brood box. You run ten and you can't work the boxes effectively cause the frames are too tight, especially in the fall. If you are starting out with foundation only run 10 till they pull them out then drop to 9. Remember, commercial guys are splitting, combining, adding frames of honey on light hives, etc. etc. so it's a different kind of management then a hive sitting in the backyard...something to keep in mind. It's not that one way is better or the other, just different.


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## mnbeekeeper (Jun 30, 2010)

we run 8 frames and a plastic feeder. so how do you guys that run 9 frames feed. jars? top feeder? seems like the fastest/ commercial way to feed your bees every spring and fall would be to have a feeder in every brood nest. we have put 4 gallons to most of our hives this fall. that would be hard to do with out plastic one gallon feeders in each deep brood chamber.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

alpha6 said:


> You run ten and you can't work the boxes effectively cause the frames are too tight, especially in the fall. .


Sorry to cross you, Alpha. But this statement is simply not true.
First lets look at where we place the Doolittle feeders.
Most people place them to the inside of the pallet so that you just slide the lid to fill.
I place mine to the outside. While it is somewhat clumbzier to fill, I think the bees winter better with the feeders to the outside. We have all noticed how the bees seem to all move to the center of the pallet in extreme cold of winter; why place the feeder in their way.
With the feeder to the outside, they tend to store feed where it needs to be and where in fact they will winter and that is near the other hives at the centr of the pallet.
With that said, I run double deeps with 10 frames in the bottom and 9 frames AND A FEEDER on the top.
When I inspect I first pull the feeder and pulling frames is a piece of cake from there.
The last thing before closing the hives is sliding the feeder back in place; no sweat.
My frame spacing is always close to perfect; no goofy tool necissary.
OK now, don't bite my head off. I just want to give my reasoning for what I do.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

If it works for you Harry, no problem. My bees pack out the nine frames so there is little room as is. Going through 4000 hives I don't have to waste a lot of time trying not to roll a queen or crush bees the way I run it.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

IS it possible that it does not matter if you use 8 or 9 or 10 frames, because the bees will build them out until there is a beespace left(Not the brood cells so much, but the band of honey cells, yes). At that point, all is equal. You will have the same difficulty removing the frame , with a beespace on either side, no matter how many other frames there are. 

Now, if you take frames that where used 9 in a box, and put 10 in, you would have less than a beespace, and problems would ensue.

Difficulty in removal for us seem more predicated by how well the frames and boxes have been kept clear of brace wax and propolis.

Roland


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well there's a difference here in the perception of a commercial beekeeper, and a hobbyist. 

A hobbyist doesn't care if it takes a long time to get his first frame out without doing damage. It's his hobby, he enjoys it.

Me, I'm a retired commercial beekeeper, I run 9 frames per brood box. But i do disease inspection of hobbyist hives as a part time job for our government. I find it really frustrating the way the hives are usually set up, usually with 10 frames ( among other problems ), so difficult, and time consuming to work.

But here's where the difference comes in. I'll go to check someones one hive, they come wandering out to do it with me, i open the hive, inspect all the brood frames, close up, and the other guy is still putting his veil on. They say Wow, how did you do it so fast?

It's because when you're in business, you can't be slow, and the hive has to be set up to allow you to do that, but to a hoobyist there may be 10 frames to a box, takes longer to work, but it doesn't matter.

Now here's another thing. If you're running a brood nest of two deeps, a queen cannot come close to laying in all the cells. No advantage having 10 per box. 9 per box is still plenty more than she needs. The frames should not be spaced evenly, as that is unnaturally wide for brood frames. They should be pushed to the middle with a gap each side of the box. Working the brood nest a commercial guy will usually start in the middle, stick his hive tool in and seperate widely the frames then easily take the first one out with no damage to bees or queen.

Having said all that there are still commercial guys who run 10 frames, although why i don't know!


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## Merlyn Votaw (Jun 23, 2008)

In my experience I get about 15 lbs more honey in a 9 frame than I do in a 10 frame plus I don't roll the bees as much when I take a frame out. What works for one may not work for someone else. Try both ways for yourself.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Oldtimer - do you think you can do a COMPLETE inspection of 18 frames in the time I can do a COMPLETE inspection of 10 frames? I would bet I can remove my first frame in the time it takes you to remove the extra deep. So you have 8 more frames to inspect after I am finished.

So you say, no need for complete inspection? When you get all of our maladies, you may think different. 

Roland


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## MTINAZ (Jan 15, 2010)

If you place the 9 frames in the center how do you kept the bees from building a mess on the outer edges. Everytime I have left a space it did not turn out good.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Well there's a difference here in the perception of a commercial beekeeper, and a hobbyist.


So I assume that yours is the hobbiest perception as you are the only non (currently) commercial to comment? 
:banana:

Roland is right. The spacing between frames will eventually be the same, 9 or 10 frames however the 9 frames loose endbar control.
So now, along with drawing out the comb thicker, the bees also make the endbar spacing thicker but all hoge-podge not uniform.
Heven forbid you have to move hives with those thick frames slapping around smashing bees and queens; dosn't make sense to me.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Careful guys keep your ammo dry for the really important stuff like the good ole fashioned small cell battles that used to break out from time to time.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Roland, you might be faster than me, I wouldn't know.
We do complete inspections, inspecting every brood frame for AFB in spring is a legal requirement here. Also, I'm doing exotic surveillance, I check for all the bugs you guys have just to see if anything has arrived yet.

MTINAZ, good point about the mess on the edges. When I was a commercial beekeeper we kept our frames a long time and with propolization of end bars we would end up when the frames were pushed to the centre there would not be that great of a gap each side, but yes, some bur would get built.

Harry. I'm a hobbyist now. Assume whatever perspective you want.
Frames loosing end bar control? not sure what you mean.
Moving hives with thick frames slapping around smashing bees and queen doesn't make sense!! You make it sound like a nightmare. 
Might be as you say in theory, in practise, done right it works fine for migratory beekeeping.

Anyhow guys, didn't want to stir up a hornets nest! The origional question was 9 or 10? I gave my answer, with reasons. I know it won't suit everybody, no worries! Peace Out!


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## MTINAZ (Jan 15, 2010)

For those that have feeders in do you leave them in all year?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We do but ideally they should be pulled before honey supers are put on as they can get filled with comb, just kind of a P I T A to store them and haul around frames to drop in their place. The other option is a cap and ladder system which will work but I have personally found to be a bit of tinkering to keep them sealed up right and then if you need to store them they dont nest.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Harry. I'm a hobbyist now. Assume whatever perspective you want.
> Anyhow guys, didn't want to stir up a hornets nest! The origional question was 9 or 10? I gave my answer, with reasons. I know it won't suit everybody, no worries! Peace Out!


No disrespect intended, Oldtimer. Just yanking your chain. 
It has been pouring down rain here in Oregon; nothing better to do.
I really appreciate that you have clear reasoning for what you do. I do also.
It is often expressed that "We all have our own ways of doing things".
Generally I read that as a copout.
However there are many different managemant systems for beekeeping that work althoiugh very different in structure.
I am really swaying to your side on the double deep system that I have used for 20 years.
Between you and Walt Wright, I am REALLY considering changing over.
Thanks for your thoughtful insight!
Harry


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Roland is right. The spacing between frames will eventually be the same, 9 or 10 frames however the 9 frames loose endbar control.
> So now, along with drawing out the comb thicker, the bees also make the endbar spacing thicker but all hoge-podge not uniform.
> .


I guess that depends how you space the frames. If you space them evenly, then yes they will make the comb thicker. If, on the other hand you push the frames together and toward center then the combs will remain the same. Make the space at the side walls wider. The bees will fatten the outside of the outside combs, but queens don't lay there as a rule.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

HarryVanderpool said:


> If you go to 9 frames, the space between comb will still be the same as 10 frames once the bees draw it out, so the argument about rolling bees is dismissed.


 Sorry Harry but I would have to disagree with that when it's concerning the broodnest. Honey frames are drawn out thicker, as in the honey supers where an evenly spaced 9 frames are drawn out thicker to make up the difference of the missing frame and a beespace. But during the active brood season, the cells where the brood are reared won't be deeper then the length of an adult honeybee. Since the depth of the cells are the same depth as found in a 10 framer that means that there will be more space between the frame. I guess it to be around an extra 3/16" extra space between the frames

Since this is where the queen is there is less chance of rolling her or any bees that are on that frame also. I usually take the second frame in out first when i'm going through the broodnest since the end frames can get a little thick and most broodnest manipulations are done during the active season anyway. 

As for the honeysupers, I think that most beeks won't even take a frame out until it's sitting in there honeyhouses so there's not much chance of rolling bees there too.

Something else about 9 frames in the broodnest is that the extra little bit of space provides extra ventilation and clustering space thus discouraging the swarming impulse, so it is said, maybe it does.

regards.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The point is that uneven comb will roll a queen more than even comb. Wide spacing leads to uneven comb. Narrow spacing leads to uniform comb. Those thicker spaces have to be covered with more bees to keep the brood warm.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

You hit it "On the nose" Mr Bush.

Roland


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Agree with you both on that one.



Oldtimer said:


> The frames should not be spaced evenly, as that is unnaturally wide for brood frames. They should be pushed to the middle with a gap each side of the box.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

As stated before, I trim my frames and run 11 frames in the broodnest, or 9 frames with a 1 gallon feeder.

It has been my experience that the difficulty in removing the first frame is very dependant upon the hive tool that you use. If you use a standard hive tool, it can be difficult to remove the first frame because you can't get under the top bar to pry up. If you use the hive tool with the J hook, it is a piece of cake to pull a frame. Pop the frame loose from the one beside it, and then use the J hook to lift the frame up and out.

Not using the right tool for a job can make that job miserable.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

9 in brood chambers... I think that location and type of operation are huge factors in this debate... In the south and with our type of operation we have a very short period during winter that we are not in our hives. We do not need to use feeders much at all and we simply push towards the middle then wedge them apart to begin removing frames... They do not have any chance during any flows to build comb along the extra outer space in between our workings... and honestly 8 frame boxes are better, they just dont meet our needs of extra frames... we dont get crazy drawn wax and we always have extremely heavy hives for packages and splits several times per year (this has more to do with the queen than the number of frames)...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

My bees fill every space they can up with comb honey if given the chance. Its a real pain cutting down honey comb when working the brood nest


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Ian said:


> My bees fill every space they can up with comb honey if given the chance. Its a real pain cutting down honey comb when working the brood nest


Thanks Ian,

Again, Location and type of operation... We are in our hives constantly and exchanging frames constantly throughout the season... We produce packages and queens as well as performing numberous genetic and disease control studies... thus we are in our hives from late feb - late dec. We also do not take off honey at all anymore, thus each colony has a medium on top that is never extracted... they do not have the time nor need to build any extra comb other than the first flow when we build foundation.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

we run 8 frame equipment and keep 8 frames in the broodnest, pushed towards the middle, pryed to the outside for removal..plenty of room and dont roll any bees. Like rrussell we are in a warm climate and are in our hives a lot...we dont see excess comb built except between boxes and only on the strongest flows.


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