# How many beehives can we manage?



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Travel time between outyards is a big part of the equation too. I used to think 600 working by myself would be about the limit. Now I doubt if I could work a hundred. Depends on the beekeeper and his physical abilities.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> I am aware that the number of colonies that can be managed within a working day is dependent on several factors. However and according to my experience I and my employee managed to work around 150-200 hives per day ( 8-10 hours working day ) . This are average values​​. Working 6 days a week I think I will get manage about 1000 hives with one employee . It makes sense this projection according to your experience ? Thank you for your attention!


Seems reasonable.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Now keeping is a relative concept. I would say I have not met a beekeeper yet that can keep one.

Mot just put bees in a box and hope for the best and wait to see what happens. Some do quite a few things in some attempt to improve the situation. others don't bother at all with that stuff. the results seem to be pretty much the same.

A few seem to have risen a bit above the norm or at least other beekeepers think so. I am not so sure they have not just gotten better at leaving the bees alone and there bees have gotten better at staying alive. It may be both.

Now how many hives can you fiddle with as they die off? I once heard 1000 per year per person but I didn't believe it even back then. I think the 500 to 600 is more realistic. But with the typical dying off rate that probably is closer to 1000 per person. Just not all at once and for the entire year.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Somewhere between 500 to 1,500 depending on how much intensive management you plan on giving them. Queen raising is another story entirely.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

jim lyon said:


> Queen raising is another story entirely.


To clarify this number is to be run by me and my employee who has worked with me full-time for two years . It is very autonomous already . It lacks the driving license!

No queen raising!

From your experience, and if I understand correctly , I will not need to hire another full-time employee for the 1,000 hives. Great!:thumbsup:


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> To clarify this number is to be run by me and my employee who has worked with me full-time for two years . It is very autonomous already . It lacks the driving license!
> 
> No queen raising!
> 
> From your experience, and if I understand correctly , I will not need to hire another full-time employee for the 1,000 hives. Great!:thumbsup:


Only you will be able to answer that question. I should make the point that more intensive management of fewer hives will no doubt increase your per hive income but less intensive management of more hives will probably increase your bottom line at the end of the year partly because of economies of scale but also partly because you have made the fundamental decision that you simply cant do everything you may want to every hive. You have to find the level that you are comfortable with.


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

A retired commercial in our club has mentioned in his talks that their operation took care of 4,000 hives. They had 4, 2 man teams. Your goal seems reasonable.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> Now keeping is a relative concept. I would say I have not met a beekeeper yet that can keep one.
> 
> Mot just put bees in a box and hope for the best and wait to see what happens.
> 
> A few seem to have risen a bit above the norm or at least other beekeepers think so. I am not so sure they have not just gotten better at leaving the bees alone and there bees have gotten better at staying alive. It may be both.


Bolstered by someone I heard from and visited w/ this past weekend I will say, Those guys you speak of aren't beekeepers. I don't know what to call them, but they aren't beekeepers. If you are going to be a beekeeper then you have to "Keep them alive, keep them alive, and then keep them alive again. Then you are a beekeeper." And if you want to have 100 hives in the Spring you have to have 120 or 130 hives going into Winter. You have to monitor mite loads regularly in each apiary to see what the trend is, rising or falling and how fast, knock them down w/ treatments and managements and take care of your bees. Take care of your bees and they will take care of you still stands the test of time. Plan and don't try to keep more than you know you can and can afford.

I am a Type B sort of beekeeper, not a Type A. You all know about Type A and Type B personalities, right? Type As don't spend much time internet beekeeping. The guys on the Commercial Forum who check in every now and then, those guys are Type A Beekeepers. 

Those of you who have been on beesource for a while know who I am and what sort of beekeeper I am by now. And I maintain around 500 hives. So that should tell you something. If a Type B laid back lacidaisical beekeeper can maintain around 500 hives a Type A type of beekeeper should be able to do the same and really make money w/those hives. Or keep 750 and concentrate on pollination as the main source of income. So that guy probably should shoot for two semi loads plus in order to keep numbers up.

It's all a matter of how smart one works, how hard one can work, and how willing one is to do what needs to be done when it needs doing. And whether they have a willing and understanding spouse/partner.

Many are capable, few are willing.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

What about work ethic? Are you willing at times to work seven days a week? I once sent a load of lease bees to a guy and I called him to tell him we were loading them that evening and he said that mothers day was coming tomorrow. It should been glaringly obvious that he wasn't the right fit for me to send bees to. We waited and sent him a different load. I work until the job is done and my workers do the same. We still get plenty of time off its just not every weekend. I think two motivated people should be able to run 2000 with some seasonal help, like for extracting or splitting. Obviously I no very little of practices in Portugal.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Daniel Y said:


> I would say I have not met a beekeeper yet that can keep one.


?

are you under that umbrella


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## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

I worked my hives yesterday. It was there second day In Florida. Took my roughly 7-8 hours to work and feed 250 hives. I was definitely beat and basically done for the day after that. 700-1000 I feel would be a comfortable number depending on your background and efficiency working.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

jim lyon said:


> you have made the fundamental decision that you simply cant do everything you may want to every hive. You have to find the level that you are comfortable with.


It is very true that what you say Jim. I currently already do this compromise between what I want to do and what I can do , keeping me quiet consciousness with the notion that I did the best I could , with time and the means available to it . So far very few hives ( count on the fingers of one hand ) died in my apiaries have left me a nasty feeling that I could have done more or better.
My average lost hives over the 6 last years varies between 5 % and 10 % , and some of it comes from trying supercedure early autumn. 

I hope of course that in the future can continue to have these good results. Being in this forum to talk to all of you is a great honor for me , I will not forget .


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

babybee said:


> What about work ethic? Are you willing at times to work seven days a week?


Of course, sometimes I have had weeks of seven days work. The time when I have more work is between mid- April and late May , when I have to control the swarm and make the splits of colonies . The splits is one of the heights of more work, but is also the one I like best .



> I work until the job is done and my workers do the same. We still get plenty of time off its just not every weekend. I think two motivated people should be able to run 2000 with some seasonal help, like for extracting or splitting. Obviously I no very little of practices in Portugal.


Have often supervised my employee to this philosophy. This work is not compatible with office hours . Bees don't stop and do not waiting for us if the work does not get full . I always try with my example deliver the right message to my employee . If I 'm picky with me standing to be strict with him whenever necessary.

In Portugal it seems to me that things are not much different , taking we have more sun than you guys in some regions. And the queens do not lay many eggs as ligustica or buckfast queens and colony not need as much food in winter.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I may be crazy, but I believe the risk and rewards grow proportionally with the number of hives per beekeeper. A large number of hives per beekeeper gets you the potential to generate more profit, but at the same time, when bad things happen, more losses. There have been many "Flash in the Pan" overextended operations that have come and gone over the years. I believe it is no coincidence that we have one of the lowest hives per beekeeper, and have been in business the longest. 

Crazy Roland


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Roland said:


> I may be crazy, but I believe the risk and rewards grow proportionally with the number of hives per beekeeper.


In Portugal have happened sometimes that's what you say . Healthful those entrepreneurs who set up operations 500 , 1000 or more hives without ever having seen a bee. You may ask how anyone is so stupid? The main reasons are in my opinion : believe that beekeeping is to have boxes with bees , which are there in the summer and continue that way for them to get the honey, that is, do not have the slightest notion of how beekeeping is laborious and demanding ; on the other hand these projects are partly funded by the Portuguese state. 

In my case , not being free from something serious happen to my operation , I have two things for me : I know a little about " what is a bee " and always worked with my money , it does not me fell from the sky. Money earned from work and sweat is money that a rule is always well spent.



> I believe it is no coincidence that we have one of the lowest hives per beekeeper, and have been in business the longest.


How many hives by beekeeper have you? Thank you Roland!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

"Keep them alive, Keep them alive, Keep them alive."

Now I would agree by perfect definition this is absolutely true.

Now is there anyone that is able to do this. If the averages losses are 30%/year this means average success of keeping is 70%/year. The problem with that is the /year part. It means that in 3 years it will be almost 100% loss.

I believe this is a significant point that commonly is not even recognized. It is not about keeping a colony for a year. it is not even about keeping it for 2 years. the best beekeepers would consistently be able to keep bees for 3 years or more. and they still would have 100%/??? losses because all colonies will eventually die.

I find the /??? is the significant missing portion of this equation. It is the mark set that all other things are measured against. And it should be based upon what can reasonably be expected from an adequately managed colony.

For now I set it personally at 2 years. any colony that survives 2 years is a colony that is at 100% kept rate. If it lives 3 years it will be at 150%. Averages across the nation indicate that is should be 3 years for 100% but I don't consider the third year of a colony productive enough that I care if it survives. I am concerned with the two productive years I can expect from a colony.

I also consider any time a queen is replaced in a colony a colony has been lost. I measure my colonies from queen to queen I name the queen not the colony and I always have. I do not think I can expect a queen to survive three years without being replaced.

One benefit I see to this method is that it only only indicates falling short. but it measures improvement as well. I may use methods that achieve 100 or even 150% of that mark. I may also find methods that indicate 300% can be achieved and maintained. Measuring loses according to an endlessly changing mark of what kept means does not allow this. The mark by which kept is measured needs to be fixed.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

I want to thank all the sympathy you all showed me and the attention that you guys gave this thread .

I'm much more safe in the knowledge that with an arduous and well organized work, my employee and I we can expect to manage 1000 hives.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Last season the weather pushed the flow late and we ended up running a one month honey pull. I hired in all the school kids that would work here and had 7 working the honey flow on 1000 hives and pulled 240 drums. 
Up here three man team is pretty typical to handle 1000 hives.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Ian said:


> 1000 hives and pulled 240 drums


Ian, your numbers showing an average of about 70 kg / hive / year. You correct me if I 'm wrong .
For us the average hive / year is much lower= 30 Kg .
We need not, unfortunately , so much manpower .

You only do one harvest per year ?
I do around here 2-3 crops to get us much is possible monofloral honey, and to decrease the number of supers needed.



> Up here three man team is pretty typical to handle 1000 hives.


3 men team all year?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya, we pulled 165 lbs off 950 hives average. It was all taken off in three-four weeks. We have one shot at the crop, some years long and drawn out, others short and sweet. 
I hired two guys starting May (after schools were finishing up) which ran to Sept Oct. Then hired a bunch of kids for the summer months budgeted to work the flow but kept the extra hours busy with grunt farm work. 

The real challenge is keeping the crew busy in between bee work. Not so much here as the farm has load of work to do. 

I think your plan sounds reasonable.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Ian said:


> I think your plan sounds reasonable.


Ok, great. Thank you.


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## pppswing (Dec 19, 2013)

Well, according to your data : 150/200 hives per day to get 1000 hives, means
12 apiaries of 83 hives, visiting 2 apiaries per day everyweek or 
24 apiary of 42 hives and visiting 2 apiaries per day every 2 weeks

I heard that to take care well of hives you have to count 1 day per productive hive / year. 
Max is then 365/man in a splendid world without winter.
Mean is 365/2 = 182 productive hives /man

I believe 182 hives is far more reasonable than 1000 hives / man.

Doesn't mean that you cannot handle 1000 hives alone but will they be all that productive ?

I know people with many hives and large apiaries, and a very small productivity per hive, 
very big work to feed and treat all that junks and they actually don't have the money to do that expense.

I know many people that are also very confident about weather and their physical condition, 
they go up to 800 then decrease to 400 then finish at 150/200.

And those with 150/200 make more money out of it.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

pppswing said:


> Mean is 365/2 = 182 productive hives /man


In my country we have 9 months to work regularly in the field. Since mid-February to mid-November.
On the other hand I have a full-time employee . 2 people in this profession made 4x the work of one. If necessary in the months of harvest I can contract others for that period. Honey will not stay in hives.:no:

When I have 1000 hives at full throttle I am happy that you come to Portugal to see what you think impossible.

Now I have 400 hives and I know how much free time I have. I regularly see 50 hives in 3 hours. I do so without any difficulty. I take half work done from home. Always carry an onboard reference about each hive to the apiary. 90 % often I know exactly what I must observe in each hive and what I need to doo. 

I mentioned a few days ago in this forum that my records of each hive give me not only feedback (the effects of management I did) but also feedforward (what I must find and what i must do if everything is normal). I understand that this information is not to stay at home , is to be with me whenever I need it. I take this information to the apiary. Fortunately 90 % of my hives insist on being normal . Exceeds slightly the famous relationship 80/20. I am a lucky man. But luck give me hard work. 

From France to here is a leap. I'm happy to show you my work method.
I am sure you will learn two or three things from me and I will learn a few more with you.
Do not believe everything what the books say and, above all , do not believe that all truth is in the books. The life of every day is very complex and diverse . For many books that are written it does not fit there all.
Bonne soiré pp!


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## pppswing (Dec 19, 2013)

I will go to Tras os montes in Feb I think, there's a beek fair. 
Where are you in Portugal ? I might visit you to see how you work.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

pppswing said:


> I will go to Tras os montes in Feb I think, there's a beek fair.
> Where are you in Portugal ? I might visit you to see how you work.



Great! I'will send you a PM with my phone number.
I live in a city in the center of the country called Coimbra. I have 2 apiaries in the area with 140 hives. You and I will see them all in one day. And we still have time to drink a glass or two.


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

Large company in NZ, two people team covers 1000-1200 hives.


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