# Cutout possible w/ TBH?



## EngineeringBeek (Mar 4, 2008)

I'm going to do a cutout from a house sometime soon. I'd like to use my TBH's, but I just don't see an easy way of attaching comb. Is there an easy way? I really don't want to make this more work than it's worth. Should I just get some lang boxes and frames? The current colony volume in the wall is estimated at about 2 cubic feet. I have plenty of room for this in my hives, but just don't see an easy way to attach the comb.
My thought was to use a course fence type wire and make a "U" shape, put the comb in, then staple to the bars but this would be time consuming.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

IMO it's worth making swarm catching frames even if you intend to put them in a Langstroth. It's so much easier than rubber banding. But if you insist, a frame with rubber bands is pretty easy. I've never even attempted to do it on a top bar hive, but some people have used a bottom bar that is free hanging just under the comb and the whole thing is tied up to the top bar. It just seems to me that the manipulations of a cut out are stressful enough when rubber banding them into frames without the added complexity of combs that are hanging free with no real frame and trying to get all that together.

You can make the frames to fit the top bar hive.


----------



## EngineeringBeek (Mar 4, 2008)

Michael Bush said:


> IMO it's worth making swarm catching frames even if you intend to put them in a Langstroth. It's so much easier than rubber banding. But if you insist, a frame with rubber bands is pretty easy. I've never even attempted to do it on a top bar hive, but some people have used a bottom bar that is free hanging just under the comb and the whole thing is tied up to the top bar. It just seems to me that the manipulations of a cut out are stressful enough when rubber banding them into frames without the added complexity of combs that are hanging free with no real frame and trying to get all that together.
> 
> You can make the frames to fit the top bar hive.


So you're suggesting using frames in the top bar hive? How do I make them fit (it a KTBH)?


----------



## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

EngineeringBeek said:


> So you're suggesting using frames in the top bar hive? How do I make them fit (it a KTBH)?


Now shouldn't we be asking the engineer that question?  I've been working on designing a simple solution for trapezoidal swarm frames. But until I have that resolved, I would think the short answer is this: your swarm frame will simply be the shape of the cross-section of your hive, minus a bee space around the frame, and accounting for bee space between combs. You will have to be me more creative when using a TBH.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So you're suggesting using frames in the top bar hive? How do I make them fit (it a KTBH)?

http://www.beesource.com/plans/swarmframe.htm

Just adjust the dimensions. Make the corners square and bend the nails/staples to make the angles.


----------



## RBar (Jun 22, 2005)

*Or...*

Michael,
OR...one could saw a thicker bottom at the appropriate angle and glue/tack it on the ends...might be a bit sturdier when stringing the wire...
I would saw grooves in the top bar (same angle) for them to insert into as well...glue and tack...
'Think I will go saw some of 'em up for fun...just made 34 of the other type for Langs. 

Instead of hindges (very expensive for large numbers) I simply cut some 1.5" x 1.5" squares of alluminum flashing and stapled them on the bottoms for "hinges"...they will not be used continuously, so the will be adequate if I don't open them too wide, I hope.

Roy




Michael Bush said:


> >So you're suggesting using frames in the top bar hive? How do I make them fit (it a KTBH)?
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/plans/swarmframe.htm
> 
> Just adjust the dimensions. Make the corners square and bend the nails/staples to make the angles.


----------



## Aram (May 9, 2006)

Here's another idea:
Wire cage
Got to work on that. I'm not happy with the wire net I had on hand but that's all I had when a piece of comb full of brood broke off during inspection. Chicken fencing might work better as the holes are a lot bigger (not to mention hexagonal  .)


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

how about something like a follower board out of plywood
saw a big opening in to to put the comb in
you could easily put some kind of communication holes in what's left of the plywood

Dave


----------



## EngineeringBeek (Mar 4, 2008)

Aram said:


> Here's another idea:
> Wire cage
> Got to work on that. I'm not happy with the wire net I had on hand but that's all I had when a piece of comb full of brood broke off during inspection. Chicken fencing might work better as the holes are a lot bigger (not to mention hexagonal  .)


That was my thought, get a very course yet lightweight wire mesh and do it that way. But I'm afraid it may interfere with the comb too much.

The good news is that the hive in the wall swarmed yesterday and I hived them in my first TBH. There were about 10 pounds and they're foraging pretty good today considering that its been raining on and off all day. That should make the wall cutout less crowded and I'll have two hives and less honey to worry about in the cutout.


----------



## debay (May 25, 2008)

Ive been doing a lot of reading up on TBH and will eventually build one myslef. One of the sites I was looking at showed pictures of early versions of the TBH and how people managed the Top Bars and frames. I dont recall where I saw it, but there was one that used what looked like bambo strips or maybe basket weaving material to make a loop on the bottom of the Bar. You wil have to use your imagination on how to make it stay on the bar, I would assume an angled groove or slot on each end. The loop would form a sort of frame that would allow you to rubber band the comb in place long enough for them to attach it. You could always go back and cut the comb free of the strip and remove it.


----------



## EngineeringBeek (Mar 4, 2008)

Well, we did the cutout yesterday. But it just so happens that all of my TBH's had been filled with swarms so my friend that help me took the bees. He uses Lang equipment so it was much easier. I can't imagine trying to do what we did with a top bar. Thank goodness for swarms!!! Thanks for the advice also!!!


----------



## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

*Another option for a tbh frame for a cutout*

The swarm catcher frame looks like it would be real easy to use, but maybe more time consuming to make. And if you don’t have the proper equipment or the carpentry experience it might be even more difficult to make.

Here’s another way to do it that might be a bit easier or faster to fabricate for some people--if you want to use the frame idea. Start out making a simple frame, just a top bar, two side pieces and a shorter piece for the bottom. Strips that are half an inch or three quarters of an inch wide would probably work. Nail it the way Michael Bush mentioned, tack the side pieces on straight and then bend the nail over to get the angle. Tack on the bottom piece. 

Here then is how I wire comb into a normal frame when doing a cut out. This same general idea can be adapted to the simple angled tbh frame. If you can zoom in on the photos you can sort of see how I zigzag the wire back and forth to hold the comb in. I usually use small shoe tacks (but a small frame nail would also work) and the wire you normally use for frames. Wire is easier to wrap around the tack than trying to tie a string, especially if you have gloves on and they are sticky with honey.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s313/Tomas_fotos/DonArturosferalhive5Abr07153.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s313/Tomas_fotos/DonArturosferalhive5Abr07154.jpg

I put two tacks on each of the sides of the frame’s side pieces, one towards the top and one towards the bottom. Both sides of the frame would be wired to hold the comb in. The wire runs straight across the top part from the first tack to the second, diagonals down and across to the third tack, goes straight across the bottom part to the fourth tack and then diagonals upward and across to the first. I usually have the wires all set up on one side of the frame. I just need to lay the comb into the frame and wire the second side. Have the wire cut to the proper length and remember to leave enough extra so you can get a hold of the end and wrap it easily if you are going to have gloves on.

As you can see in the photo, the combs from this cutout weren’t very deep so I jammed a small bar under the comb and between the side pieces to help keep the comb butted up against the top bar.

To lay the comb in the frame and zigzag the second wire across the front of it is fast and goes real easy. It’s just a matter of having them all set up before hand.

You wouldn’t have to wire in all the comb the bees have in their feral colony—just enough to ensure they will stay in your box and have a good head start on building a new nest.

Once the comb gets glued to the top bar real well, you could probably even pull those side/bottom pieces and wire off and leave it hang freely.

Good luck with the next cutout you come across.

----------
Tom


----------



## debay (May 25, 2008)

hope that box wasnt sitting on your extractor. ick.....lol


----------



## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

Yea, I know . But it sure gave me a handy place to set the box while I was filling it with brood comb (and then another place for the smoke). This cut out was done in an old building. The bees had moved into the ceiling space right above the shower. That’s why the combs were so narrow. Went well. Filled up two five gallon bucks with honey combs and then the box full of brood. 

Here’s another picture. We left the box up near the ceiling to collect all the stragglers.


http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s313/Tomas_fotos/DonArturosferalhive5Abr07167.jpg

----------
Tom


----------



## mikevan (Jun 13, 2008)

My first cutout used strings to tie up. It had a problem with cutting into the comb which made it harder to keep the comb flush with the top-bar. My second cutout, I used cloth strips going along the perimeter of the comb and tied to the top-bar on either end of the comb, then with a string around the middle to keep the comb from popping out. The comb is still very tightly flush with the top-bars a week after the cutout - which makes it easier for the bees to make attachments. This second technique is very easy to implement and the bees don't chew thru it rapidly so it allows the comb to be supported until the bees get around to fixing it to the topbar. As soon as they've adequately cemented the comb to the top-bars, I'll remove the cloth strips. I've photo-documented both cutouts here:

http://bees.taroandti.com/ 

Be well,
Mike


----------

