# Hive boxes



## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Hi all , I need around 500 boxes made before next spring, Do any of you commercial guys still make your own still ? By yourself or hired help ?

My issue is that I can buy the wood to make a deep box for around 7.00 each total. I still have to cut it out and assemble / paint ...

If I bought the box for around 9-10 dollars plus shipping, I still need to assemble and paint... 

What have you all done that makes the most sense ? I will also need 4-5000 frames , but I can buy them assembled or the plastic whole frame. but I am not as concerned about the frames.

Thanks

Ben


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Do not forget the waste with making your own. Unless you buy some pretty quality lumber you will have a certain amount that is not usable. even for the stuff you do use you will have a certain amount that proves to be inferior and you will want to cull that equipment over time.

With commercial equipment the losses will have been already culled at least in part. You will also be required to make them accurate. will you make box joints rabbit joints or just butt join the boxes? commercial you will most likely get box joints.

For now I make my equipment because it is economical for me to use time making my own when I have no other work to do. Btu it will be the first thing to strike form my list as my apiary grows and I begin to have to decide what is the most profitable thing for me to be doing and what should I pay others to do. There is simply no way I can compete cost wise with folks that have entire factories dedicated to making beehive equipment.

I priced out boxes recently and the cost to make it myself not including labor was about $20 less than just buying them. For the first time my plan is to just buy them and put my work somewhere else. Labor to assemble will be about half of making the entire box.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I just found a place in Canada that has Deep finger jointed boxes for 8.99 each if ordering over 100.
http://www.dancingbeehoney.com/ Limited time special


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I have done it all. I have bought used, I have bought new, I have bought wood and cut, I cut my wood standing and worked it down to the box and frames. It's all a terrible amount of work but if I didn't have the cash, I found whatever way I could to make it happen. Sweat equity. 

When you make up your frames and snap in the foundation , just remember that they use to melt in sheets of wax. And handle the equipment very delicately .


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ben Little said:


> Hi all , I need around 500 boxes made before next spring, Do any of you commercial guys still make your own still ? By yourself or hired help ?
> 
> My issue is that I can buy the wood to make a deep box for around 7.00 each total. I still have to cut it out and assemble / paint ...
> 
> ...


Does Mann Lake ship wooden ware into Canada? You can get assembled boxes and frames from Mann Lake. Aren't there any Canadian Equipment manufacturers that do that?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I buy my wooden ware from www.lewisandsons.net
They also supply wooden ware to BeeMaid. 
The trouble with you is shipping whereas they are just down the road for me. You need to find a closer source


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Www.tonylalondesales.ca
Out of SK, deals across country . 
He has Amish made boxes which are competitively price and excellent quality. The Amish family's are near by here also and I also get wooden ware from them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What's that company from Quebec? Long time equipment dealers.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

There is propolis inc. I have not dealt with them


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Does Mann Lake ship wooden ware into Canada? You can get assembled boxes and frames from Mann Lake. Aren't there any Canadian Equipment manufacturers that do that?


I'm on the extreme opposite side of the country from Ben, on Vancouver Island, so this is likely not relavent for him. We get equipment from Larry and Marilynn at Bees and Glass in Cowichan Lake here on the island. Most of what they carry is strait from the Mann Lake catalog, and, pricing is pretty much the same. They have trucks coming in fairly regularily, and a pretty decent inventory on site. I've bought boxes that need to be hammered together, and boxes that are fully assembled from them.

They are particularily good for small orders from folks on the island. Larry heads up and down island to all the bee club meetings, and will deliver orders that fit on a pickup truck during those trips. As a 'for example', our next purchase will be a 9/18 frame extractor, and the issue of shipping makes it pretty much a no-brainer for us. I can order from a variety of sources, and pay a very substantial shipping charge to get it delivered, or I can order thru them and wait patiently for it to show up at a spring meeting of the local bee club.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

dancing bee also has already assembled frames (deep) wooden with ritecell for 1.91 each for over 1000+ qty.

I think that is a good idea , even with the extra volume for shipping , it is worth it !


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

FW Jones out of Quebec makes great boxes but they are more pricey. 

Like Ian, I get mine from Lewis and Sons.

Sweat equity is a great way to add value to a start up business if you can find the time to do the required work. We normally shoot for 40 boxes build an hour. So 40 * 1.91 isn't a bad hourly wage. I imagine the extra freight for shipping completed boxes would more than cover the price of the staples.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ben those boxes from dancing bee are budget boxes. Make sure the quality is good enough for your standards. May be a good price but a bad deal.


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

Ian said:


> I buy my wooden ware from www.lewisandsons.net
> They also supply wooden ware to BeeMaid.
> The trouble with you is shipping whereas they are just down the road for me. You need to find a closer source


We use these people as well. They a good to deal with. They will also wax dip for you.


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## Dancing Bee Apiary (Jan 5, 2010)

Ben.. the budget boxes from dancing bee are finger jointed, pre drilled and functional. They have lots of knots...but for 8.99... There is also a select grade, beautiful clear lumber for a few bucks more.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I have ordered enough clear pine 1X12 for 200+ deeps about a month ago and it is nice and dry stuff, the mill is 5 minutes away from me . I am paying 90 cents per board foot for it and it is normally 1.00 , but I know the guys there well enough I always get a good price. I was getting boarding in grade for 60 cents , but it had too many knots and cracks in it. So I just figured every 6 feet makes a box and ordered enough for a good smash of boxes. I will probably give up and just buy soon, but I have too many places to spend my money right now and I am trying to save where I can . Honey sales aren't that great to pay for all of this stuff  Maybe next year LOL. Hoping for a good pollination contract in blueberries !!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Any "newbees" reading this thread should take notice. Bens got thing figured out .


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I have been wondering for a while now , Ben, where do you get your bee supplies from? Nearest Outlet ?
If you run short on , let's say, Oxytet, where do you run to get some ?


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I get my stuff from Beemaid and I always buy enough to keep me stocked up on things like Oxytet , it's cheap and for me to order under in a panic it would cost more. I usually get everything there because of price , even with the shipping it's the cheapest. BUT I now have a price list from Dancing Bee and they have really good prices , I am giving serious thought on switching over entirely to them , I know the frame prices assembled are fantastic ! 
I still need to get myself a flat bed truck (something cheap) and either someone to haul my loader or a trailer for it to haul behind me. I am just praying for a close pollination customer and keep my costs down on travel.

If I needed to run and get supplies I would go to http://www.footefamilyfarm.com/ They are a lot more expensive , but they are an hour or so away from me. 

I always like to be prepared , so of course I panic and over do things so I am ready for anything LOL

P.S. missed shooting my Deer I have been waiting for this afternoon , she ran away laughing at me


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ben Little said:


> P.S. missed shooting my Deer I have been waiting for this afternoon , she ran away laughing at me


too busy chit chatting on beesource, lol


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I wish that is what happened, I just plain old missed :lookout:
Ben


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## TooFarGone (Aug 19, 2012)

I am not a commercial beek, but it might be worth calling Western Bee Supply. I do not know if they ship internationally but I suspect they might be interested. In 500 quantity deeps are $9.10 (US) plus shipping. Frames are 65 cents each in 5000 quantities. I can get their wooden ware shipped to Mississippi from Montana by UPS for less that I can purchase at other outlets before paying for shipping. You are talking about pallet size packages and I suspect it would be a lot less to ship than UPS package rate! 

http://westernbeestore.3dcartstores.com/


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I just ordered 750 deeps from Mann Lake's black friday sale. WIth bulk order discount and 10% off entire order, I paid 8.33 per deep for budget.( 8 or 10 frame-same price) I have used budget deeps for 3 years and have found them to be great quality._* No tax and no shipping*_. I couldn't make them for that. Sale still on I believe.

Every year, the prices go up and the dollar value goes down. Every December I procrastinate about ordering stuff I'd like to stock up on, but don't want to spend the money. Every January I am sorry I missed out on those lower prices. In 2013, rite cell jumped from $90. a case to $99. With this sale I got it for $81. 

I planned for this sale all summer, worked hard and saved every dollar I could. Still a bit painful to spend that much, but I think It's a dollar well spent.

For $9275. . I got 750- 8 frame deeps, 20 cases of unassembled deep frames, 15 cases of black rite cell and 20 telescoping lids with inner covers. I saved about $3400. from regular prices. It was a good opportunity. 8 frame equipment generally never goes on sale.

I bought enough frames and foundation to carry me through 2014, enough deeps for a few years growth and perhaps to sell. I luckily have a hay loft that is very dry and protected for good wood storage. 

The biggest discount on this sale was the hive bodies, when purchased in bulk.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

No Tax ?? How did you manage that ? Either way I will get it back eventually being a farm, but those prices are sweet  NO Shipping cost ? NO WAY that would happen in CANADA .


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Mann Lake has no offices in Wa. State. Only Ca. and MN. 

Beauty of the internet...no tax. Although I sure THAT will change in time.

There are 250 box's on a pallet. I am still thinking about ordering one more pallet, but when I do, I feel like the hands of the Ancient Aliens come down and start squeezing my stomach....
My mind says do it. My gut says-NO. 
My husband says OK, but gives me the evil eye at the same time, LOL.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I like to have extra everything , you just never know when you need something like extra boxes and frames in a hurry. Better to have it and not need it , then need it and not have it ! 

Between everything I bought this year and what is to come in the next few months I could probably buy another house on what I need to spend and I too get that strange sick feeling in my gut, but I am making a commitment to my farm and I will not back down, I am here to stay and I hope my bees do the same


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

A person needs to know their prices. Research the market, especially with seasonal crop AG products we use, like sugar. That information gives me confidence I'm making the right move when I DO buy. I generally don't spend money on anything, make my lunch and coffee at home to take with me, pinch my pennies. But I'll buy a lifetime supply of certain things (building materials and lumber being high on the list) if the deal is right. Because I don't let my money dribble away all year, I can usually afford to do so. Especially if those products may be in short supply in the years to come. Natural resources are being used up at amazing rate. I'm not sure how the Pine Beatle will play into pine availability/prices in the future ether. I know when we are hunting in Idaho or Montana, 50-75% of the pines are dead everywhere we look.

I get pallets of stuff from Mann Lake that weighs thousands of #. At $8.33 per box and free shipping I don't know how they do it.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Just a bit of info on the shipping game. Companies that ship high volumes do not pay the standard rates. when you ship by the pallet load it really drops. One way to get an idea of what contracted rates could be . look at the prices of equipment at Grizzly.com
they list the price of the shipping separate on their equipment. You can also look up the weight of that equipment. If I remember correctly I got a band saw shipped that weighed over 300 lbs for a little over $100. A compact although heavy pallet of supers would probably get better rates than that. Shippers love compact heavy loads. I used to send bags of rice over the Sierras to San Francisco. The reps for shipping companies lined up at the door to land those loads. I also used to work for the company that supplied playing cards to the casinos. again very small but heavy pallets. The reps where constantly in that office as well. Fast easy heavy loads.

I doubt Mann Lake is paying nearly as much for freight as you might think.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ben Little said:


> to spend and I too get that strange sick feeling in my gut, but


I know the feeling,


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Daniel Y said:


> I doubt Mann Lake is paying nearly as much for freight as you might think.


Ya, I agree there, but they still have to ship from two states away and are FAR cheaper than any other supplier I have found + they want shipping on top the price. 
These 8 frame deeps come out to be $1.47 a board foot all cut and milled. The 10 frame deeps are $1.38 a board foot.

Now I need to find a good supplier for 3/4" x 10 pine planks for my modifications. I'll cut some of these deeps in half for mini frame stackers. I prefer to have them stacked overwinter instead of a single if possible. These are the only thing I use 10 frame deeps for. You can see I've been just cutting off the box joint ends for my parts up until this point.










That screened inner cover is deep so I can throw a sugar block or protein on top. I just flip it over for feeding solids. With a deeper inner cover rim, I can feed an inverted _half gallon_ mason jar and the shallow super will be tall enough to cover it.

Heres how they look when I am stocking them. I've tried used cedar for the divider, but it's just too unstable and will shrink even after it has been dry for a year. Dividers have to have tight tolerances or they will jump ship to the favorite queen overwinter. I fir out the bottom and staple on ether a screen or solid bottom. If they are screened, they get a 1" piece of foam under the slide in for winter. 




























These are for mating nucs in summer and overwintering as many queens as possible for early spring use.


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## PerryBee (Dec 3, 2007)

You should get together with other beeks in your area and bulk buy, reducing costs on shipping as well.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I have advertised Bulk purchasing on the NS Beekeepers site , no one has offered and I don't really want to kiss anyone's butt to do it . Dealing with Dancing Bee should get me enough of a deal on my frames and possibly more boxes. I have 70 or so made now and enough wood coming for another 200 . So I only need another 200 honey supers for the time being .

I have some used boxes and they are poor in quality and I don't think I want anymore used equipment like that, New stuff is the way I am going.

I have a neighbor that has a radial arm saw that is going to make better hand holds for me , trading Honey for work  I was going to buy one , but I don't need another tool in the workshop :no:

Ben

Here is what way he is doing the holds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyxfRMMD7SU&fb_source=message


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

How much side pressure can a skill saw blade withstand ?


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Not sure , I just saw it for the first time done that way, I have always just put a simple dado cut in the box and called it a day.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ian said:


> How much side pressure can a skill saw blade withstand ?


Technically it is not supposed to be any at all. but practically I have never heard of one getting broken. that feeding of wood sideways to the blade stuff is a direct and blatant infraction of safety. They make tools intended to had wood fed to it that way. it is not a 1/8th inch steel blade.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Ben:

If you wanted you could have the boxes shipped from Mann Lake to you and have them delivered to the nearest US location to you. Then you would to put your trucker hat on and get them. Then put your customs broker hat on and cross the border with them. Just something to think about. It is not all that hard to do and could save you a few dollars assuming your truck does not break down along the way.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ben if you decide to cut your handholds that way, before you make your first cut think of what will happen if that blade fractures.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I wouldn't be doing it, my neighbor offered to do it with his radial arm saw. I don't know if it would come back on me if something happened , but I am not hiring him to do it, he offered to help out.

So I have no idea what to say about it really.

Ben


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

Lauri said:


> I just ordered 750 deeps from Mann Lake's black friday sale. WIth bulk order discount and 10% off entire order, I paid 8.33 per deep for budget.( 8 or 10 frame-same price) I have used budget deeps for 3 years and have found them to be great quality._* No tax and no shipping*_.
> 
> What are you going to do with 750 deeps, Lauri? Are you planning on joining the traveling crowd in the almonds?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I'll use at least half of those myself, sell the rest to help pay for mine.

As far a pollination goes, you never know. I'll see how big I grow and what I can handle. For now it is just queen rearing on a larger scale so I have enough to supply the shipped market as well as local. 
I do already have a Ford 450 dually and tandem dually equipment trailer. 8x 20 deck. So I could do some pollination. I would do Washington apples first though..they are only 3 hours away. 
I'll have to get palletized too. I have 130 colonies overwintering and could easily be up to 200 hives in 2014. It depends on how much I want to sell to help pay for expenses and how much I want to keep for growth.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Lauri , do you specialize in Queen rearing and selling bees ?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

That's what I'm working toward.

My queens are survivor hybrids originating from Glenn Apiaries Carniolan VSH II stock and hardy farrell genetics harvested from wilderness areas of Mt Rainier national park, Northwest Washington State. My interest is in genetics and breeding.
About 80% of my hives are treatment free, using brood breaks and VSH genetics for mite control
I treat about 20 % of hives with Apivar.

I've been only selling locally so far, raised a few hundred more this year than last. But have been held back only by my limited resources. I double my size every year to gear up for more production. Give me just 2 more years.  I'll be turning out the numbers, have my scheduling down so deliveries can be made with reliability. I'll also have some performance test results from other climates, including Canada and Alaska.

If I sell nucs this year is will be on a small scale, less than 50 to the locals. My season is short here, Most of the nucs I will sell are overwintered nucs with 2013 July raised queens.

I'll be keeping the rest for mating nucs and expansion.
Long hours and hard work, Thats the plan for 2014.

Fall and winter populations are great, you can see a bit of sugar brick left in this February pic. I'd assume Good for early almond requirements. I'll get some feedback before I make any claims about performance. But compared to all the other queens I've had in the past, they are superstars. With my recent order at Mann Lake, that actually ended up being just over $10,000. (Added more frames and foundation) I'm putting my money where my mouth is. Wouldn't be doing that if I didn't believe in my program.




























Heres a virgin hot out of the incubator. This is the typical color of most of my line:










I've been happy with this incubator, but will have to get a few more online. Takes a bit more time to hatch them out inside, but I can cull through them throughly for better quality control.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Nice incubator , where did you find that?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Ian, see -> Link.


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