# Varroa tolerant queen breeders for 2012



## heaflaw

Thanks for posting this. It's a great resource.


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## windfall

Here in Vt, Kirk Webster has been breeding and selecting for treatment free/Varroa tolerant bees for a number of years (8-10?) He does now have a website (Kirk Webster.com), but it is info sharing only. Business is conducted by phone or traditional mail.

He is the first to admit the stock (russian hybrids) "has a powerful urge to swarm" but believes this can be handled with proper manipulation.
He didn't produce queens for sale last year as he relocated the apiary, but I believe he is this year (he does Nucs too). 

Extremely honest and reputable guy...and has the long wait lists to prove it!


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## Adam Foster Collins

Kirk is well known to a lot of people here, but it's good to point him out to people that haven't heard of him. He has done some great writing, which he was compelled to put on his website, as he felt that some publications were feeling industry pressure not to print so much of his writing. Treatment free is not profitable for everyone.

Russian stock interests me, but I worry that they'd be too swarmy and too defensive for the close-quarter situation I have in the city.

Adam


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## Stonefly7

Thanks Dar for sharing. But as mentioned above, Kirk Webster, Michael Palmer, and Michael Bush all breed from survivor stock, trying their best to minipulate genitics and Drone hives to get the best results they can. (that's from two of their web sites) They are extremely hard to contact, to try and gleen some information. 

Adam, have you tried Ferguson Aparies up your way? The reason I ask, is they have a good Buckfast stock, that may work for your needs. I tested in one of my yards, using Two arms of their methods, with Buckfast stock. After the third year, the results were very good. I am trying to work on the third arm, which is breeding, but as I noted, no answer to calls, e-mail, or PM's. So I will try my own methods based on Brother Adam's ideas. The hope is to not have to purchase so many queens, and create my own.

Kind regards


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## Adam Foster Collins

Stonefly,

I have contacted Ferguson, and he has been good about communicating. I have also found Mike Bush and Mike Palmer to be very good about communicating via email. I have never tried to contact Kirk Webster.

My problem is Nova Scotia's restricted border. I can't bring bees in. I can only bring in eggs, sperm and ripe queen cells. Bill Ferguson does not normally ship queen cells or eggs, which means a pretty long road trip for me if I want his bees (somewhere around 1,000 miles). 

I think that I will likely work with local stock for the next season or two, before I go to great lengths to bring in bees from other areas.

Adam


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## camero7

I would add Full Bloom Apiaries to the list:
http://www.fullbloomapiaries.com/


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## Broke-T

I am using VSH breeders from Glenn Apiaries, http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/. 

Also VSH breeders from Dr. John Harbo;
Harbo Bee Company
324 West Woodgate Ct.
Baton Rouge, LA 70808
225-766-5696 


Johnny


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## Fusion_power

I've sent most of the information in the top post to Kim Flottum editor of Bee Culture. He is interested in doing an article.

If anyone else wants to chime in with sources of survivor queens, I would request that you respect these criteria
Survivor - no treatments for mites for at least 5 years
Eco - only soft treatments for mites
Tolerant - breeding from known tolerant genetics such as Russian breeders

DarJones


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## KQ6AR

All Glen breeder queens have VSH in the mix, Many producers use their queens.
Here's one in my area http://queenbeesforsale.com/
I like using Noble because we can drive, & pick them up. Dixon, California


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## Fusion_power

Here is an update to the listing of suppliers for 2012. Please remember that I have not personally verified these suppliers nor do I know if they are good businesses to deal with. They just list queens for sale that are raised from colonies that are not treated for mites.

DarJones


http://carpentersapiaries.com/ - Italian stock selected for mite mauling
http://www.arnoldhoneybeeservices.com - Italian survivor and Russian stock
http://www.beeweaver.com/ - went treatment free about 10 years ago
http://www.bjornapiaries.com - description is a bit weak but does say untreated
http://www.coldcountryqueens.com - Russian stock untreated for several years
http://www.honeybeegenetics.com/home.html - included because they did so much work on SMR
http://www.johnstonshoneybeefarm.com - untreated since 2003
http://www.mikesbeesandhoney.com/ - produces selected AI queens
http://www.mountainvalleybees.com/ - Alabama producer, at least 12 years untreated
http://www.oldsolenterprises.com - survivor queen stock program, survivor queens
http://www.wildernessbees.com/ or http://www.owa.cc - 10 years no chems, Bee Culture published an article about them
http://www.purvisbees.com/ - 10 years untreated, has highly varroa tolerant bees
http://www.vpqueenbees.com/ - untreated since 1999

http://www.dixiebeesupply.com - uses some soft treatments
http://www.ziaqueenbees.com/ - uses some soft treatments

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm - don't know if Michael Bush will be offering queens for 2012!
http://www.russianbreeder.com - this is the Russian queen breeder cooperators website.


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## LT

Got some we use as breeders that have had no treatment since 2001. [email protected]


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## adamf

Fusion_power said:


> The major hurdle is that varroa tolerance so far has come at the price of lost honey production. It is relatively easy to breed for bees that are highly varroa tolerant. It has not been simple to combine the various tolerance mechanisms with production of high average honey crops. In some cases, VSH queens are too aggressive at uncapping brood. Bees that reduce brood rearing tend to be unadapted to areas with both spring and fall nectar flows.
> 
> DarJones


This sounds logical, but is not entirely accurate.

We select for* mite tolerance* AND *honey production*. We collaborate with producers who all make a living from selling their brood (through pollination) and their honey (honey production). They also find that mite tolerant bees are more resilient and need less treatment in a production scenario with IPM.

If it is realativley easy to breed bees that are highly varroa tolerant, why aren't more varroa tolerant phenotypes available? :s


HEADS UP
Double check posts here, for accuracy. The internet is a well of information, but not the only source! 

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenebes.com


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## Solomon Parker

* www.vpqueenbees.com


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## Riskybizz

If i'm not mistaken Beeweaver's website indicates that they still do use fumidil-B on all their package bees for nosema. So I guess they aren't totally treatment free. I buy bees from them and will continue to do so.


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## Fusion_power

Adamf, My statement was made based on 20 years of seeking and raising various types of varroa tolerant bees, not just from reading articles on the internet. In the early years from the roughly 1990 invasion of Varroa into the U.S., the major resistance mechanism was breaks in brood rearing. Any way you slice it, those breaks wound up cutting honey production.

Along the way, a few colonies were found that were naturally tolerant to varroa without the brood breaks. In retrospect, these were either highly hygienic or else mite mauling bees. Most feral bees were wiped out. Selection within the pool of survivors is gradually increasing the mite tolerance traits in our feral population.

When the Russian queens were brought in, researchers at first called the tolerant genetics "SMR" because they did not understand the mechanisms involved. These bees exhibit very high levels of mite tolerance, but if line bred too closely, they exhibit traits like uncapping and removing even healthy brood. This trait seems to be a case of a little bit is good, but too much is a problem. If you are not familiar with this aspect of VSH, I suggest you check with Glenn Apiaries, they deal with it on a regular basis.

When the Africanized bees arrived, we got a look at another tolerance mechanism. They tend to maul mites with their mandibles. This trait is present in our feral bees, but at an extremely low level. It does not have a direct effect on honey production, but these bees tend to be more aggressive than most beekeepers would want to deal with.

That gets us to the essence of my statement. When you consider all the queen breeders in the U.S., less than 10% are raising highly varroa tolerant queens. That number is increasing rapidly as breeder queens with high levels of mite tolerance become more common. The problem I see is that these tolerant queens are based almost entirely on the VSH trait. This trait has known problems when concentrated. As I stated, brood production is reduced and honey production is reduced too. That you actively select for both production and tolerance is the path we should be going forward, but I would bet a dollar that you either don't actually screen your breeder queens to see which trait they are exhibiting or else don't actively seek other traits like mite mauling in your breeding lines.

My reason for starting this thread is because we are at the tipping point where bees in the U.S. are finally going to be mostly varroa tolerant. I would like to see more effort made to increase the mite mauling trait in our bees. That is the one trait you don't mention selecting for and arguably it is the trait most needed to finally get away from using chemicals.

I have not treated my bees since 2005. They are healthy and productive. My only significant problem is that they are not genetically diverse enough for my liking. I would love to see an importation of Lamarckii, Saharensis, Cypria, Carnica, and Jemenitica that had been carefully screened for hygienic behavior. That would go a long way toward increasing genetic diversity in our bees.


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## AstroBee

Fusion_power said:


> 20 years of seeking and raising various types of varroa tolerant bees


So which link above can we select to buy some these bees?


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## adamf

Fusion_power said:


> Adamf, My statement was made based on 20 years of seeking and raising various types of varroa tolerant bees, not just from reading articles on the internet. In the early years from the roughly 1990 invasion of Varroa into the U.S., the major resistance mechanism was breaks in brood rearing. Any way you slice it, those breaks wound up cutting honey production. Along the way, a few colonies were found that were naturally tolerant to varroa without the brood breaks. In retrospect, these were either highly hygienic or else mite mauling bees. Most feral bees were wiped out. Selection within the pool of survivors is gradually increasing the mite tolerance traits in our feral population.


Okay FP. Those "gems" are raw material for selection.



> When the Russian queens were brought in, researchers at first called the tolerant genetics "SMR" because they did not understand the mechanisms involved. These bees exhibit very high levels of mite tolerance, but if line bred too closely, they exhibit traits like uncapping and removing even healthy brood. This trait seems to be a case of a little bit is good, but too much is a problem. If you are not familiar with this aspect of VSH, I suggest you check with Glenn Apiaries, they deal with it on a regular basis.


SMR/VSH trait selection doesn't/didn't have anything to do with Russian bees. You are mixing the two up. We use VSH/SMR stock in our breeding program and have used it since it first became available. There was initially a problem with over-zealous uncapping but that was resolved--it's in the literature, and in the success of VSH stock now performing as well as any other "commercial" stock with some crossing and selection.



> That gets us to the essence of my statement. When you consider all the queen breeders in the U.S., less than 10% are raising highly varroa tolerant queens.  That number is increasing rapidly as breeder queens with high levels of mite tolerance become more common. The problem I see is that these tolerant queens are based almost entirely on the VSH trait. This trait has known problems when concentrated.


I'd check this. You're concerned about a problem that has been resolved.



> As I stated, brood production is reduced and honey production is reduced too. That you actively select for both production and tolerance is the path we should be going forward, but I would bet a dollar that you either don't actually screen your breeder queens to see which trait they are exhibiting or else don't actively seek other traits like mite mauling in your breeding lines.


Ha ha! You would lose that dollar!  You're oversimplifying VSH expression to be black or white. Assume that VSH expression is not a negative, but an additive. By selecting for it *AND* for other good traits, one is breeding excellent stock. More and more breeders are using VSH stock in their programs. Are they doing this because they want their stock to perform less well? No. More queen producers are buying-into using VSH expressing stock. Most bee breeders have something with VSH going--depending on what their breeding objectives are.



> My reason for starting this thread is because we are at the tipping point where bees in the U.S. are finally going to be mostly varroa tolerant. I would like to see more effort made to increase the mite mauling trait in our bees. That is the one trait you don't mention selecting for and arguably it is the trait most needed to finally get away from using chemicals.


I did an experiment back in 1996 that looked at grooming in colonies. I found that all colonies groom, some more then others. Yes, to combine grooming with VSH would be a good thing. You wouldn't lose a dollar bet if you gambled that that is being done now.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## arrowwood

Randy Oliver came to speak at one of the local bee meetings. While he was there, he did an inspection of one of our guys stock and pointed out the bees displaying VSH. Those queens caame from Wooten's http://wootensgoldenqueens.com/ I was lucky enough to bring one of those queens home with me  Good brood pattern too - we'll see how they overwinter here


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## kilocharlie

Dar -
could you describe your test for mite mauling? I am aware of liquid nitrogen test for VSH. Are there other Varroa tolerance tests you are aware of?

And, big THANK YOU for this and other posts. You are an amazing student of bees, and a great resource here on beesource.


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## bhfury

Velbert has nice queens http://www.vlwbeequeens.com/


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## Hans

resistant bees.com has a talk at Lunz Institude that expains the relationship between VSH and small cell.


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## Hans

As far as Mitegrooming is concerned visit Bioimkerei Wallner in Randegg austria 
He came up with the VKF


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## JBJ

Are we going to have a 2013 list?


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## kilocharlie

Do check out the referral list on www.glenn-apiaries.com as it lists a great number of mite-tolerant bee breeders, including Hygenic Italians, VSH, Russians, and several others.

I saw the referral list in blue letters on the right side of the site under an announcement that Tom and Suki have retired, etc. Click on it and you get a map of the USA and a big list.


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## marshmasterpat

Is there an updated 2013 list. Was looking at 2 feral hives and they have mites. Netted a few at one hive and saw the mites, was looking at some comb on the second and saw a mite. So I am guessing at a glance they both are significant issues.


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## Fusion_power

It is best to eat crow when it is fresh, the older it gets, the worse it tastes.

There are several queen breeders offering highly disease and pest tolerant queens. Carpenter apiaries has provided me with some good queens that are as good as my own highly varroa tolerant line.


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## deknow

kilocharlie said:


> I am aware of liquid nitrogen test for VSH. Are there other Varroa tolerance tests you are aware of?


A liquid nitrogen test is for HYG behavior, not VSH.

deknow


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## deknow

>>....but I would bet a dollar that you either don't actually screen your breeder queens to see which trait they are exhibiting...

>Ha ha! You would lose that dollar!

Adam, does this mean that you are actually screening for VSH behavior? If so, that would be a new procedure, no?

deknow


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## kilocharlie

Thank you, deknow. I have since learned the tests - watching for pink-eyes thru purple-eyes pupae being uncapped and removed are the telltale signs. Counting the removals per hundred cells gives a % value for grading. Several observations at different times must be recorded and accounted for.

I'd still welcome any other tests anyone else comes up with.

Mite mauling is determined by broken varroa mite parts in the sticky tray under the screened bottom board.

Incidentally, powdered sugar shake treatment to encourage varroa grooming is now recommended every week of fly-out season, not just 4 treatments in the fall as was recommended 2 years ago. Hence, the mite log now goes on the year calendar, and the buildup and reaction are traits to be selected for.

As with most breeding, inbreeding is a technique to be utilized, but not abused. The goal is to find recessive traits, often expressed through inbreeding. The very next generation usually has to be out-crossed. Crosses of inbred specimens from different inbred lines can be spotty, but may yield some excellent stock. Excessive inbreeding is likely why the over-zealous uncapping occurred. Obviously, thorough record-keeping is a must, as is trait testing.


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## valleyman

Not advocating that they be added to the list, but thought I would let those interested know my observation of my Shamrock Carnis. Yesterday while splitting some very strong hives, I observed in three of the hives the bees removing fairly mature brood and carrying it out of the hive. I never took time to examine anything that they were removing, but they were obviously something not right with the brood, or at least they thought so. I know fall is not the ideal time for splits but I had thru neglect on my part lost 3 hives. 2 to moths after they died out, and 1 to SHB. This year we have built a new house and moved so with my plate full the bees suffered. So I am trying to get back to my 12- 13 hives. I will feed as long as they will take feed.


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## ptmerrill

Am I correct that the only one on your list that is selecting for mite grooming is Carpenters? Are there any other breeders that are selecting for mite grooming?


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## kilocharlie

Purebred Russians and many AHB hybrids express grooming traits, as well as even more desirable mite mauling (biting the mites). It is expressed in many colonies, and to varying degrees. So I would imagine that several queen providers have bloodlines with that trait present to some degree, if not highly selected for these traits.


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## ptmerrill

Sorry should have said mite mauling. Same question are any breeders known to be trait testing for mite mauling and selecting for it?


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## kilocharlie

P.S. - The test for mite mauling is to look for chomped up mite parts in the IPM screened bottom board sticky board. The more % broken mite parts, the better.
Oops! I already posted this - delete if you wish.


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## Michael Bush

>I have since learned the tests - watching for pink-eyes thru purple-eyes pupae being uncapped and removed are the telltale signs. 

I've seen that ever since regressing...


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## Fusion_power

When the mite count gets to a very low level, brood uncapping becomes almost undetectable. I would suggest a combination of checking for mite load plus looking for removal of reproductive mite females via hygienic uncapping. Recognize that low mite loads correlate with low levels of uncapping. If you can then integrate some checks for mite mauling.......


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## squarepeg

i found this old thread while doing a search for clayton huestis' query about treatment free queens.

it's an old thread so the information may be outdated. 

the discussion is more about breeders selecting for mite resistance than treatment free per se.

anyone able to report recent experiences with these suppliers?


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## Buzz-kill

squarepeg said:


> i found this old thread while doing a search for clayton huestis' query about treatment free queens.
> 
> it's an old thread so the information may be outdated.
> 
> the discussion is more about breeders selecting for mite resistance than treatment free per se.
> 
> anyone able to report recent experiences with these suppliers?


I have and Old Sol Caucasian and a Frost queen that survived their first winter in northern Illinois where hardly any bees survive. We'll see how they do their second year.


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## squarepeg

Buzz-kill said:


> I have and Old Sol Caucasian and a Frost queen that survived their first winter in northern Illinois where hardly any bees survive. We'll see how they do their second year.


:thumbsup:


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