# double nuc



## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

Has anybody used the Better Bee double nuc. Two colonies in split ten frame deep with dual 4 frame nucs on top. So I guess it's 4 over 4 frames that are suppose to keep both colonies warmer in the Winter.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

wild-b said:


> Has anybody used the Better Bee double nuc. Two colonies in split ten frame deep with dual 4 frame nucs on top. So I guess it's 4 over 4 frames that are suppose to keep both colonies warmer in the Winter.












What is the point of this? you made late splits? (dont make late splits) you caught some late fall swarms... perhaps.

but for normal hives, most northern people will overwinter in 2 - 10 frame deeps. thats 20 full frames for overwinter. not 8. Why you would try to reduce a full size hive down to 8 frames is beyond me. in a standard 20 frame overwinter setup you would have 8+ capped honey frames for winter stores. that would be the entire size of your double 4 frame setup (just for stores).

Personally, I would not be trying it and dont see it working well for northern climates.


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## garusher (May 28, 2012)

schmism said:


> What is the point of this? you made late splits? (dont make late splits) you caught some late fall swarms... perhaps.
> 
> but for normal hives, most northern people will overwinter in 2 - 10 frame deeps. thats 20 full frames for overwinter. not 8. Why you would try to reduce a full size hive down to 8 frames is beyond me. in a standard 20 frame overwinter setup you would have 8+ capped honey frames for winter stores. that would be the entire size of your double 4 frame setup (just for stores).
> 
> Personally, I would not be trying it and dont see it working well for northern climates.


Oh boy, oh boy. i think you are comparing apples with oranges


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## pharmbee (Jun 21, 2013)

schmism said:


> What is the point of this? you made late splits? (dont make late splits) you caught some late fall swarms... perhaps.
> 
> but for normal hives, most northern people will overwinter in 2 - 10 frame deeps. thats 20 full frames for overwinter. not 8. Why you would try to reduce a full size hive down to 8 frames is beyond me. in a standard 20 frame overwinter setup you would have 8+ capped honey frames for winter stores. that would be the entire size of your double 4 frame setup (just for stores).
> 
> Personally, I would not be trying it and dont see it working well for northern climates.


I would think that Michael Palmer would disagree. I sure do. I overwintered double nucs 5 over 5 this year with less loss than my 10 over 10s. Those nucs went right into my deadouts and I will repeat this summer/fall, except I'm going to make way more nucs to also use as brood and comb builders for 16. Any swarm trap catches will be going right into the nucs. 

I won't say it works for everyone but it sure works for Mr. Palmer and completely copying him on a smaller scale I think it works for me. Local queens with support staff.


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## Thomas Russell (Jan 7, 2014)

I'm pleased with this set up in Georgia and Mike Palmer in Vermont has proven success with them. I think that qualifies as a northern climate. I believe there is some shared warmth, but more importantly for me, with a growing apiary, I'm overwintering 2 queens and colonies in the same space that would normally contain 1. I had zero winter losses while supplementing sugar bricks due to low stores from late splits. MP calls them brood factories and boy is he ever right. They also work great for adding frames of brood to Cell Builder, Production Hives, or making splits in the spring.


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

Kinda what I was thinking and I know a few people that have really good luck with the smaller overwintered nucs


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Having nucs on hand is a valuable strategy. Having a double nuc allows you to take two nucs through the winter by sharing cluster warmth through a shared wall. It isn't failsafe, but does seem to be a better approach than overwintering two fully separate nucs.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I overwintered several side-by-side nucs in upstate New York, and In my opinion, they did better than the full size hives.
For me, the losses were similar.. every once in a while, I'd lose one, whether nuc or production hive.
But the quality of the colony in the nuc coming out of winter was consistently better regarding vigor and buildup rate.

But then, that was upstate New York, and the temperature never got much below -24F.

Maybe they wouldn't do as well further north.
Though I know of some folks in Ontario that overwinter _two _frame nucs outdoors.

Have fun.
Enjoy your bees.


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## Rick_ Sprague (Feb 7, 2012)

I did several double Nucs over the winter. They came out strong, and all are in double deeps right now. Some have supers on now. I will be be using the double Nuc system this fall to save space and for warmth. I'm sold on it so far. We had wind chills of -25 last winter.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

schmism said:


> Personally, I would not be trying it and dont see it working well for northern climates.


 :lpf:


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

Thanks Mike and everyone else for your input :thumbsup: I just made 3 of the double 4 framers and a couple of the 5 frame standard nucs and plan on doing some reading this summer on getting them through the Winter.


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## JMoore (May 30, 2013)

Palmer has a couple lectures on YouTube about having a sustainable apiary. He discusses these in the videos.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I get some of the overwinter nuc concept, but one thing I don't get is the bottom box. Why not use two boxes on the bottom as well? I make d. Coates nuc boxes and modified them so they will stack. That would be 2, 1\2" boards butted up against each other, making it 1" thick. And I also make my telescoping covers a little larger to cover two, side by side. Also, they hold five frames instead of 4.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

rookie2531 said:


> I get some of the overwinter nuc concept, but one thing I don't get is the bottom box. Why not use two boxes on the bottom as well?


I don't know. Why not? Use what you want, what you have, or what you have access too. It's not about the box it's about the bees.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

schmism said:


> What is the point of this?


Sorry to make fun of your question. I shouldn't have. But, read the posts here in this short thread. That's the point. Two colonies of bees on 8 combs each all under one cover, wintering better than single colonies on 20 combs with 60 pounds of honey.


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## JMoore (May 30, 2013)

rookie2531 said:


> I get some of the overwinter nuc concept, but one thing I don't get is the bottom box. Why not use two boxes on the bottom as well?


You can. Use what you've got. I custom made my own nuc boxes for the side by side 4 over 4. I didn't want to make twice as many to have them on bottom, too. 

It's easier to use a single box below because they're readily available. It's easy just to divide them with a divider feeder or solid board and stack two Nuc boxes on top. 

You can use same 10 frame telescoping cover. Bottom boards must be custom made. 

But use what you have.


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## cowdoc (May 15, 2011)

schmism said:


> What is the point of this? you made late splits? (dont make late splits) you caught some late fall swarms... perhaps.
> ...
> Personally, I would not be trying it and dont see it working well for northern climates.


When I first heard of this, that was my thought. My partner said we need to do this and get these boxes on the market. I said it sounded like a dream. Then I saw how many of these survived and started thinking a lot more about it. For those that want some background, I have kept 5-15 hives since the mid 80s. I started in NH and then spent a few years in Ohio while in school and have been in upstate NY since.

The partners at Betterbee are veterinarians who had cattle practices, so I will draw some experience from how a dairy farm is run. There are cows that are not productive every year. Something goes wrong with them. Same as hives. Many farms raise heifers to replace the unproductive cows. Accounting for these heifers and their expense can be somewhat funny money because they draw a little off the farm at a time in labor as they are fed and cared for or as feed is put up for them. Other farms that don't raise heifers have very accurate accounting of the costs because they buy heifers to replace cows every year. That cost tends to be high because it is cash to someone else instead of using labor and feed that might not have been otherwise used on the farm. That sounds more like beekeepers. There is a definite cost to buying packages and nucs from others in the spring to replace losses, and they tend to be high. The really successful dairy farmers in our area did a good job of breeding cows to make heifers and raising the heifers. They had replacements readily available, so they could cull out their cows that were not productive or that took a long time to deal with. They did not have trouble paying bills. In overwintered nucs, the beekeepers have a strategy available to them of raising their own replacement hives (heifers) to be keeping an apiary that pays bills instead of creating them. Obviously this is not the only way to do that, but one of them that has proven to be repeatable.

With the overwintered nucs, you start your splits in June or maybe July, you split up non-productive types of hives, you use minimal resources (1 frame honey/nectar, 1.5 frames brood) to make each one, and then you give them a new queen or queen cell from superior breeding. You do not perpetuate genetics of poor-doers, you do not spend all summer wondering what to do with hives that are not going to make honey, you use little resources, and then you have more queens in less equipment making more bees for you to use next year. You can use them to grow or sell. The demand for these seems endless. Sometimes you will end up feeding them if you do not have flow. 

These nucs draw foundation like crazy, so are a good source of drawn comb. You may need to manage them a little to move brood or honey around a little if one is too strong or not strong enough.

You can use a split box for the bottom or individual boxes. The split box is easier to make. The supers need to be split so you can examine one side at a time and not have the bees mix and potentially lose a queen that crosses the divider. 

Whether you build your own boxes or buy them, this strategy for raising your own replacement bees works and is repeatable. You may want to consider it. Watch some of the youtube videos of Mike Palmer explaining it. Go the the Betterbee website and look at the informational articles in the learning section. It can be a game changer for you.

Chris Cripps
[email protected]
Greenwich, NY (1/2 way between NYC and Montreal, not the village in NYC)


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Chris,
Thank you for the comparison. It really helps to put it in the context a real life economic model. I haven't seen Michael Palmer's videos that will be my next stop and I will definitely look at your info on Betterbee.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

schmism said:


> What is the point of this? you made late splits? (dont make late splits) you caught some late fall swarms... perhaps.
> 
> but for normal hives, most northern people will overwinter in 2 - 10 frame deeps. thats 20 full frames for overwinter. not 8. Why you would try to reduce a full size hive down to 8 frames is beyond me. in a standard 20 frame overwinter setup you would have 8+ capped honey frames for winter stores. that would be the entire size of your double 4 frame setup (just for stores).
> 
> Personally, I would not be trying it and dont see it working well for northern climates.


Michael Palmer in Vermont overwinters hundreds of these.

Opps now I see that he has replied.


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## MikeinCarolina (Mar 9, 2014)

JMoore said:


> You can. Use what you've got. I custom made my own nuc boxes for the side by side 4 over 4. I didn't want to make twice as many to have them on bottom, too.
> 
> It's easier to use a single box below because they're readily available. It's easy just to divide them with a divider feeder or solid board and stack two Nuc boxes on top.
> 
> ...


Does anyone have any plans or pictures for the dividers for the 10 frame deep and for the bottom board? I have a couple of small swarms that I think I am going to have trouble getting to full deep size prior to winter and would like to give this a try. I have seen Mr Palmers video also but I still have a lot of questions - is there a book or someplace on the web where I can go to do more reading?

edited- 

cowdoc - I just took a look at your website and thank you for the useful information - I wish I was close enough to attend your over wintered nuc work shop.


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

Is the bottom box divided? Do you use a queen excluder?


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

I have some pics of the boxes I made that I'll post later today


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Bees of SC said:


> Is the bottom box divided? Do you use a queen excluder?


Bottom box is divided. No excluder.


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

Priceless.


Michael Palmer said:


> :lpf:


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## Rube63 (Jun 28, 2010)

Thomas are you on face book?


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

Thank you Michael, NOW I see:thumbsup:


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

So it's like a townhouse for bees then?


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## Jeyster (Apr 26, 2013)

MikeinCarolina said:


> Does anyone have any plans or pictures for the dividers for the 10 frame deep and for the bottom board? .


I don't have plans, but I just took a standard 10 frame and cut a channel down the middle of the short end with a Dado blade on the table saw. I cut it about 1/4" deep, and just wide enought to slide a divider made from 1/2" plywood. I don't perminatly attach the divider in case I need a full 10 frame later.


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## Pinchecharlie (May 14, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Bottom box is divided. No excluder.


Are there four queens in there? I think iam missing something?


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## cowdoc (May 15, 2011)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Are there four queens in there? I think iam missing something?


Two queens, one on each side. They start with 4 frames and then a super is added on top. With the super, they have the run of 8 frames (4 over 4). The two colonies are kept separate by a divided bottom board and divided brood box and then separate supers. We have entrances on opposite ends and they are about 2 inches. We have a narrow inner cover to cover each side and then use a standard 10 frame telescoping cover. We also do some mating nucs that have 4 queens (no supers) and may winter combined into a nuc like this after use as mating nucs. 

[email protected]


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

This is the bottom note 2 entrances on opposite corners







Split bottom on top of bottom







one of two top boxes on top of split bottom 







both top inner covers on (I bought these, quality stuff at a low price)


I'm sure you could buy them cheaper than making them and better quality.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Wild-B, very nice, quality work. And thank you for the pictures as good as or better than plans.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

tanksbees said:


> So it's like a townhouse for bees then?


Sometimes they become high rise apartments.


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

thanks


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wild-b said:


> View attachment 18424
> This is the bottom note 2 entrances on opposite corners


You might want a larger entrance on the bottom board come July/August to help with absconding.


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

I have a 1" opening now do you think I should make a reducer type opening that I could just remove in the warmer months ? I wasn't sure about robbing or other pest. Beekeeping is a new adventure for me


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

One question I've had while making these is drift or leakage of Pharamone between the two colonies. What keeps this from happening?


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## MikeinCarolina (Mar 9, 2014)

wild-b said:


> View attachment 18424
> This is the bottom note 2 entrances on opposite corners
> 
> View attachment 18425
> ...


Thank you for the post ! Like you I will make my own - I have a lot of yellow pine that I had sawn a few years back to use.


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## garusher (May 28, 2012)

Well these last two weeks have really demonstrated the advantages of having 3 high side by side 4 frame nucs. I have more resources [comb, brood] than I know what to do with. well not really lol. I could not imagine trying to make increase without them. they are unbelievable little factories.

I sure to love putting brood bombs in slower hives and coming back in two weeks to a monster.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> Sorry to make fun of your question. I shouldn't have. But, read the posts here in this short thread. That's the point. Two colonies of bees on 8 combs each all under one cover, wintering better than single colonies on 20 combs with 60 pounds of honey.


No worries. I made it clear in my post it was my personal opinion. I don't claim to have all the answers or that my opinions are the end all be all for answers. You clearly have demonstrated that its doable.

Still don't think ill be trying it until i get a few more hives going. (been playing with just 2-3 for the past 7 years)


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Sometimes they become high rise apartments.


Is their a reason for having them in the same box? Why not just 4 over 4 in separate boxes? What advantage does this give?


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

warmth between the 2 hives


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

wild-b said:


> warmth between the 2 hives


How is a double better for heat than two 4 over 4 stacked next to each other? Doesn't make sense. Bees cluster in the top anyway where the boxes are separate.


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

In a bottom there is only one 3/4" board and on top there is two 3/4" boards side by side. I think bees will normally start in the bottom and work their way up. It makes total sense in the fact that you have 2 colonies side by side versus one by itself it's like an heated wall on one side.


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## Bdeaner (May 26, 2011)

The bees will cluster against the shared inner walls. Might not matter in california, but it will in vermont or anywhere that gets cold.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

Would you over winter a production hive in a double nuc or do you only do this is a brood builder hive? and would you condense two production hives into two high double nuc?


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## KRhodes (Jan 31, 2014)

I think the biggest advantage of the shared bottom box is stability. when they get three high they could blow over a lot easier without it, since the nucs are only about 8 inches wide.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

does each side have its own queen or just one queen for the four nuc hives?


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

tanksbees said:


> Is their a reason for having them in the same box? Why not just 4 over 4 in separate boxes? What advantage does this give?


I can imagine the inner board being a little warmer than the two outside boards butted together, putting some tape on the seam will probably help a lot. 

I plan on using two side by side this winter. But they are 5 framers.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Other than the obvious shared warmth factor, why do these 4 over 4 hives fare so much better than regular production hives? Is there something about the small space with an upstairs/downstairs that makes them happier than a flat 8 or 10 frame medium box?


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## Muzkrat (Apr 13, 2015)

This is very interesting to me. Is there any literature available to get a better understanding of the principle ? Would this work on first year hives that are 10 frame deeps over 10 frame deeps ? I am getting that if these hives fill out as they should for winter it would be possible for me to split the hives into 4 over 4 nucs with a split bottom deep and introduce a new queen to the queenless side ? this would overwinter to 2 hives in the spring. I am a boomarang beek that has returned from a 15 year absence and have lots of questions so please be patient with me. Thanks


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

I'm bringing this thread back into view, I think it's a great idea and I have one big question. I'm in the frozen northland and see the advantage of the shared divider in the bottom box, but why not simply add a divider to a honey super and let each nuc winter with 4 honey frames on top with a shared divider there as well. I'm not understanding the advantage of split boxes on top.
Thanks!


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## gtwarren1966 (Jul 7, 2015)

wild-b said:


> Has anybody used the Better Bee double nuc. Two colonies in split ten frame deep with dual 4 frame nucs on top. So I guess it's 4 over 4 frames that are suppose to keep both colonies warmer in the Winter.


I'm going to try them this winter for the first time except it is really simple to make them and a bit cheaper. I just took 2 budget grade Deep hive bodies, added a divider to the first. I then cut the other box in half and pieced in the missing sides. Topped it all off with plywood migratory tops with galvanized roof sheething on them.


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## cowdoc (May 15, 2011)

By having separate boxes, you can open one colony at a time without risking queens crossing over or being dropped on the wrong side. 

[email protected]


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

cowdoc said:


> By having separate boxes, you can open one colony at a time without risking queens crossing over or being dropped on the wrong side.
> 
> [email protected]


Thanks Chris, I'm thinking of ways to keep equipment versatile, that's my perspective. I would be using canvas inner covers and my dividers would be the same width as the hive/super bodies so it seems to me the canvas inner cover would protect each half from the other during inspections and manipulations. This would also leave both boxes easily converted back into 10 frame use by simply removing the dividers. One other advantage would be the common wall in the super to share warmth in the winter. I'd bang out a divided feeding shim for MC sugar and put a common quilt box on top of that. I'm just thinking out loud, early splits here in Montana still see cold temps so it seems like a really good solution to that in addition to developing a sustainable operation with summer splits for over-wintering. I'm assuming there would never be a time only one nuc would have a super, am I right in that?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Lee, I don't have a divided feeder rim, I just feed both thru a queen excluder which works fine. But then your canvas would be in the way. That is what keeps me from adding that wrinkle. This is why I am considering making the four or five frame nucs to stack above the divided double. The canvas addresses a real problem and queens can scuttle across to their death very easily in a divided deep without some barrier. But you being younger and smarter than I can unscrew this inscrutable problem. I still debate it in my mind constantly. Giving each side their own tight fitting bee containing inner cover creates more problems than it solves. You take care of solving this for us Lee.


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## cowdoc (May 15, 2011)

When you need to get into the bottom boxes, you have to remove the super, and then your canvas inner cover does not really help keep bees from going out the bottom of the super and then coming back up on the other side while you are working in the bottom box. If one of those that moves is the queen, you could end up with a queenless colony. 

There is not a time that there is only one super. Part of running these is to keep them balanced up. You may be moving brood or stores to control the exploding ones and help out the laggers. 

[email protected]


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

Vance G said:


> Lee, I don't have a divided feeder rim, I just feed both thru a queen excluder which works fine. But then your canvas would be in the way. That is what keeps me from adding that wrinkle. This is why I am considering making the four or five frame nucs to stack above the divided double. But you being younger and smarter than I can unscrew this inscrutable problem. I still debate it in my mind constantly.


Yeah, I'm trying to work this out but the side to side nuc seems like a really good solution to lots of problems. I'd have to pull the inner covers for the feeding shim for winter but that doesn't seem like a big deal. I use that floating cover on top of the sugar you suggested and I don't think I've seen ten bees above it since I put the thing on last fall. That strong hive I've been telling you about has such a great queen I'm thinking of pulling enough out of it to make up two 4 frame nucs around the end of this month and let them make their own queens. My second and less strong hive has a lot of catching up to do before it comes close to the population boiling around the strong one. Younger, yes, but smarter? Jury's still out on that one but I doubt it.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

THen were lost! I was counting on you!


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

cowdoc said:


> When you need to get into the bottom boxes, you have to remove the super, and then your canvas inner cover does not really help keep bees from going out the bottom of the super and then coming back up on the other side while you are working in the bottom box. If one of those that moves is the queen, you could end up with a queenless colony.
> 
> There is not a time that there is only one super. Part of running these is to keep them balanced up. You may be moving brood or stores to control the exploding ones and help out the laggers.
> 
> [email protected]


Yep, you're absolutely right! Thanks for pointing that out to me, I figgered I was missing something!


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

Vance G said:


> THen were lost! I was counting on you!


Wait! I was counting on you!


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

If they'll share a feeder by using a queen excluder, think they would cooperate and fill a super(s) w/honey? I'm testing it this year. I think it was Ian who was doing this in Canada with great results.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

Above the brood area an excluder. They work fine together filling a super without the divider or using a feeder. Just be ready for the explosion of bees. Two queens can really fill it up quick.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

Hillbillybees said:


> Two queens can really fill it up quick.


That's for sure!


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

cervus said:


> If they'll share a feeder by using a queen excluder, think they would cooperate and fill a super(s) w/honey? I'm testing it this year. I think it was Ian who was doing this in Canada with great results.


Wouldn't the cluster need to move up in the winter possibly leaving the queen behind?


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

Grins said:


> Wouldn't the cluster need to move up in the winter possibly leaving the queen behind?


I was thinking about surplus honey only, and removing the super(s) for overwintering in the 2X2 configuration. Just trying to see if both colonies would fill a super, and how fast.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

cervus said:


> I was thinking about surplus honey only, and removing the super(s) for overwintering in the 2X2 configuration. Just trying to see if both colonies would fill a super, and how fast.


Yeah, I'm thinking early splits, move them into their own boxes when things warm up, then another couple splits in July for overwintering to sustain my own numbers or sell if it's a good winter. The shared warmth makes 4 frame nucs much more plausible here in Montana.


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