# Curious on Commerical Queen Rearing Yard Rotation



## Lauri

Good question. Trying to organize the mating nucs was difficult, because although your first batch of virgins go in all at the same time. you get some nucs that were unsuccessful in a mated return or your remove some mated queens and not others Then they start getting on different schedules. I used different colored duct tape with notes written on them, just stuck on the outside of the nucs. Yellow for queenless with the date the queen was removed from the nuc. Gray for new virgins installed +the date, green for mated/laying and ready to be sold. Of course all marked with the breeder queens name. I could see at a glance the status of the mating nuc and none ever got overlooked. I'm pretty sure there is a better way. But it worked for me.

I used this queen rearing calender.
http://www.thebeeyard.org/cgi-bin/queencalendar.pl?month=1&day=1&year=2012

Every batch of queens got this calender printed up with the removal date of the queen cells highlighted. The calenders were all placed on a clip board with their detailed notes.
Cell removal dates were also written on my larger calender and highlighted so I never forgot.
It worked like a charm. I also made notes about the mating success of that batch, weather details if they were extreme, anything I might want to know down the road. The queens I kept still have their hatch dates on the hives and parentage-so I can evaluate them next year and refer to my notes for any insight.


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## KevinR

I did something similar to that last year. I used bricks with colored sides/letters. I'd rotate the brick on the hive based on my findings. Originally, I had used colored push pins and different locations, but I kept knocking them off. 



At the moment, I'm attempting to work out my schedule for the coming season. I "might" just plan on restocking the failed nucs, rather than get them off track. Not sure at this point, hoping that some of the local experts chime it.

I'd like to get a better grasp. I.e. if I run 80 mating nucs, graft 40 cells, stock 20 a nucs week, then pull queen in 4 weeks. In "theory", I could run a 4 yard/nuc rotation. Of course, I'm probably missing something. :s

Now, I just have to figured out how to get Lauri to mail me 80 of her designer nucs for testing purposes. :banana:

**Side Note** I'm not worried about pulling the queen as soon as I see the first egg. I'd rather that she get an extra couple days of laying for evaluation, if it keeps my schedule on track.


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## KevinR

Thinking something like this..... (Assuming that I'm using a starter/finisher)

Thoughts? (Ignore the dates, they are for demo purposes)

Is there an assumed average time for locating and capturing queen? Obviously this would depend on type of hive and skill of person, but I'd like to get a rough idea.

Thanks,

Fri Mar 1, 2013	
Graft Cells - Blue
Fri Mar 8, 2013	
Graft Cells - Red
Sun Mar 10, 2013 
Move Cells - Blue
Fri Mar 15, 2013 
Graft Cells - Yellow
Sun Mar 17, 2013 
Move Cells - Red
Fri Mar 22, 2013 
Graft Cells - Green
Sun Mar 24, 2013 
Move Cells - Yellow
Fri Mar 29, 2013 
Graft Cells - Blue
Sun Mar 31, 2013 
Move Cells - Green
Fri Apr 5, 2013	
Graft Cells - Red
Sun Apr 7, 2013	
Capture Queen - Blue
Move Cells - Blue
Fri Apr 12, 2013 
Graft Cells - Yellow
Sun Apr 14, 2013 
Capture Queen - Red
Move Cells - Red
Fri Apr 19, 2013
Graft Cells - Green
Sun Apr 21, 2013
Capture Queen - Yellow
Move Cells - Yellow
Fri Apr 26, 2013
Graft Cells - Blue
Sun Apr 28, 2013
Capture Queen - Green
Move Cells - Green
Fri May 3, 2013
Graft Cells - Red
Sun May 5, 2013
Capture Queen - Blue
Move Cells - Blue


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## wildbranch2007

purvis had a articles in i think abj recently, i don't remember if this topic was included.


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## JSL

Kevin,

From an efficiency standpoint, your schedule looks pretty good. Most commercial operations work in groups. Cells are constantly being produced, often in excess. If a batch fails or falls short, there is another group right behind it to fill in the gaps. Nucs are often worked in blocks as you describe. Set up yard and then come back to catch queens 18 or so days later, depending on the size of you nucs and weather conditions for mating. The nucs in a block are all worked together, meaning queens are caught, and cells replaced that day or the next. Any nucs with virgins or misses are restocked and ready to go again. 

You may alter the system any way you like to suite you needs.

Joe


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## Michael Palmer

I start my cell building in early May, and continue well into July, with the last queens ready in early August. We catch queens every 4 days through the season.

I'm using a schedule designed by Webster, and published in the ABJ a number of years ago. It's an 8 day schedule, with one cell building chore completed each day. After 8 days, the cycle is repeated. It uses Brother Adam's cell building method.

Basic schedule:

Day 1 Set up cell builder
2 Check cell builder for wild queen cells
3 Grafting day
4 Catch queens
5 Cells ready
6 Comb in breeder hive
7 -
8 Re-unite cell builder

Parts of the schedule are running all the time. You set up the CB on day 1, but don't check it for 9 days...which would be day 2 in the second week of schedule. And so on.

On week 1, day 1 you set up the cell builder by adding a body of queenless brood and bees above an excluder...to a strong colony. No more work until day 6, when you add grafting comb to breeder. 
Week 2, day 1, set up another CB
day 2, check entire cell builder for cells...swarm below EX, emergency above.
day 3, grafting day
4, nothing...no queens ready yet
5, nothing, no cells ready yet
6, comb in CB
7 -----
8, Re-unite queen with cell builder

Week 3, Day 1, set up a cell builder...the schedule repeats every 8 days.

The first cells are ready 10 days after first graft. The first queens are ready 16 days after first cells are ready. The cell builder can be set up again the day the cells are removed. 

I run 2 schedules at once, 4 days apart. This double schedule meshes well, and gives me queens every 4 days.

I run 500+ mating nucs...4 comb minis in 4 ways. They are divided into 4 groups. Each group is made up of 4 circles of 8-4 way mating nucs, 32 mn in each circle, or 128 in each group. We catch the queens from each group every 16 days, or one group every 4 days. 

The cell builders take 20 days from set-up to ripe cells, and the afternoon of cell harvest, the CB can be setup again.

Bro Adam harvest the brood and bees from production colonies in out yards. I have a 60 nucs right in the CB yard for that.

Does this answer your question? Make sense?


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## KevinR

Joe, 

Thanks for the info/encouragement.

Michael, 

Most of that makes sense, I'll need to draw it out on a calendar to see the big picture.

I'm trying to align mine with weekend work, since I still have a day job.

Thanks, 
-Kevin


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## jim lyon

Unfortunately the gestation of a virgin queen dosent coincide with the calendar that our society uses. Large queen operations have had to find creative ways of making this work and still allowing their workers to at least take Sundays off.


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## KevinR

jim lyon said:


> Unfortunately the gestation of a virgin queen dosent coincide with the calendar that our society uses. Large queen operations have had to find creative ways of making this work and still allowing their workers to at least take Sundays off.


Fortunately, or unforutnately... I don't have to worry about letting anyone off. I just need to make sure that my queen rearing activities fall on Fri, Sat, or Sun with light work possible during the week after hours.

Michael, 

Can you post the link to your mating nucs? I thought I remembered you running 2-way half frames with a sliding division feeder.


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## Lauri

I tried to make my ripe queen cells coincide with the weekend so folks who wanted them could pick them up on their days off. I had No cell sales however. I was surprised, but people were scared to death to try them. They were quite cheap and would be a great way for someone to make a good queen stock or increases. I think I advertised them at $10.00 each with a successful hatch guarantee or free one time replacement.


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## Daniel Y

Michael, Can you list just one schedule for beginning to end from day 1 to day 20 without including any activities from overlapping schedules? It seems tome that you have described multiple schedules but most activities are not linked to what schedule.

I think I can sort it our to abut day 6 but still am not sure just what day you graft. after that it becomes utter confusion.


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## Michael Palmer

Day 1. Set up cell builder
Day 6 Grafting comb in breeder
Day 10 Check CB for queen cells
Day 11 Graft
Day 16 Re-unite CB
Day 21 Cells ready
Set up CB for second round
Day 37 Mated queens ready

Day 38 Cells ready to re-cell mating nucs


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## Michael Palmer

Lauri said:


> I think I advertised them at $10.00 each with a successful hatch guarantee or free replacement.



Would that be successful hatch, or mated queen?


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## Lauri

Just hatch-and you have to bring back the unhatched cell for one time replacement. No guarantees on mating.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

This year I was running one mating yard with all the mating nucs having colored push pins that corresponded to which week and which breeder queen was used. It worked out really well having 3 rounds of queens going at the same time. 21 days after cells get planted I harvest the queens with color "X" push pins. If I didn't have them all sold I would mark those nucs to be the first to be pulled on the next week. This year I plan to do things a little different just to be easier managed, spread out the queens for higher drone to queen saturation and better genetic diversity. I will have 3 mating yards with each having 40 to 60 mating nucs and each yard will be one batch of queens. So week one I plant cells in yard A, week two plant cells in Yard B, week 3 plant cells in yard C, week 4 harvest mated queens in yard A and replant cells, and so forth. The three mating yards are in the middle of a larger circle of all my apiaries.


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## Daniel Y

Thank You Michael. that is much appreciated.


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## Velbert

I like to use the wide base plastic q cell cups
BLUE for vsh
GREEN for Russian
YELLOW for SunKist
I will leave these under the lid after hatch this way i know what race they are

100 Nuc's in yard= 80% turn out
That leaves 20 that need recelled
Time you learn they didn't turn out and recell,they are out of timing. Then only 20% of the 20 don't turn out that leaves another 4 out of time for catching.
Then when you catch laying queens out of the first 80% and recell then they don't all turn out you got 16 more nuc out of timing.you can see how quickly things get hard to keep in time.

This is why i like single units you move these to another queen yard these that are out of timing on catching or recelling and recell them at the same time. 

There is another way you could work this.
If weather is good most will be laying in 11 to 12 days from placing in ripe queen cells.
Check and recell one's that didn't turn out. Then give these time to mate and lay a few days
Then catch your laying queens but then you will risk the chance of them wanting to swarm because the first 80% are getting strong.


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## Michael Palmer

I've got too many mating nucs to catch, to re-cell every problem mating nuc that way Velbert. I would be running around with my head off just trying to keep up. I give the mating nucs their cells, and 16 days later catch what mated queens they have. If they don't have a laying queen, it could be the virgin never returned. Sometimes it's the bees have rejected my cell and raised their own. Sometimes the cell died and the virgin never emerged. I correct the problem...destroy emergency cells and/or virgins, and re-cell at that point. If they haven't any emerging brood left, they get a frame from a strong nuc. If they have laying workers, they get a frame of emerging and a ripe cell. 

There's always another batch of queens to catch in 4 days, and too much cell building work for me and apiary work for my help to mess around with problem mating nucs.


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## Daniel Y

Velbert, When I ready your 20% my first reaction was that is an exaggeration. So I went to the only source of actual numbers I have for now. or at least know where it is.
The following comes from a per on comparison of Instrumentally Inseminated queens to Naturally Mated queens. Arguably it applies due to the following statement.
"Most studies report similar rates among IIQ's (Instrumentally Inseminated Queens) and NMQ"s (Naturally Mated Queens) So the percentages will reasonably apply regardless if they are reporting rates for II OR NM.
1. 1480 total queens mated 1972,73 25.2% and 16.5% failure respectively average 21% This does clearly show that bad years can be very bad as well. A 25% plus failure rate means you have to graft nearly twice as many queens as you want to produce. I will show that in a bit. OUCH!
2. From 1972 to 1983 3440 queens mated 10% failure. a longer time span give a better average loss rate but conceals yearly highs and lows.
3. In 1989 a study reported 15% average failure for a 5 year period.


Related factor. one study showed a 5% failure in queens mated 10 days after emergence. but a 20% failure of queens mated at 13 days after emergence. this alone could account in drastic differences in failure rates.

I included that last line just to show that other factors need to be considered. but overall if your operation is running 20% losses it is what it is. I am just looking to see if such high rates are common.

In the 3 reports above there are 18 years total with an average combined failure rate of 12.59%

Although this protracted average does not support 20% losses. clearly the individual year numbers say that even your 20% claim could be low. Don't you just love numbers? They can pretty much just flat lie to you and you can't argue with them.

What this does tell me is that if you are having higher than 15% losses consistently your time may be better spent not chasing around empty nucs and re queening. but taking a long hard look at how you are getting your queens mated. There very well may be just a detail here or their that can make a big difference. Like trying to make sure your queens are mated at as close to 10 days after emergence as possible. In reading the entire paper temperature and room the queen is kept at after mating also makes a big difference. So High failure rates may better be addressed by looking at the condition of the nuc rather than the queen. I don't consider the above includes losses to queens not returning during open mating. So 20% losses up to actual mating and returning does seem to be very realistic. 20% unsatisfactory layers is also likely but may be preventable.

That is a total of 36% losses, at 50% losses you would have to graft 2 to 1 the number of queens you want to end up with. Clearly there is a lot of room to improve breeding methods.


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## jim lyon

I prefer to think of it in terms of acceptance rate. Yes, 80 to 85% is pretty much the norm in my experience, anthing below 70% is pretty demoralizing but happens on occassion, 90%+ is "rarified air", nice when it happens but not something you can count on. That hasn't changed too much through the years. More noteworthy, though, is that I have found when you get those lower numbers it is a sign of poor mating conditions that will later manifest itself in the coming months in a higher attrition rate among those queens that you do catch. In other words the simple presence of eggs in a nuc 2 weeks after cell insertion does not necessarily a great queen make. I agree with Mike. You really do need to treat your nucs with uniformity, any nuc that hasn't "caught" in the same timeframe as the majority needs to be rebuilt and recelled on the same schedule as all it's neighbors.


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## Velbert

Hi Daniel Y do you raise very many queens i am just very small operation had about 400 mating nuc's last year.

The 80% i talked about was a combination of things
#1 I don't candle light queen cells so some don't turn out
#2 the bees don't except some
#3 find q after hatch looks good
Then when they should be laying no queen in nuc some time i have noticed less bees in nuc think they swarmed and i find a few in the trees usally 20 to 30 feet high.

I have found it best to graft every 2 days if weather permits.

About 10 to 15% of the 20% is cells not being excepted some not hatching and Nucs swarming.

Then the other 5% who knows
Birds or insects catch them they get lost on mating flight.

But you still will need to re-cell about a 20% of them or i do but not allways.

I am also finding if you re-cell with a second cell i will add a frame of small larva so the bees will feed them and use up there royaljelly hoping to keep down laying workers and bees leaving,when the second q cell hatches some brood in the nuc. Will keep them from leaving.


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## BeeTax

Lauri said:


> I tried to make my ripe queen cells coincide with the weekend so folks who wanted them could pick them up on their days off. I had No cell sales however. . . They were quite cheap . . . I think I advertised them at $10.00 each . . .


Around here that would be quite expensive. Virgins sell for less than that, and cell are less than $5.00.


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## Lauri

BeeTax said:


> Around here that would be quite expensive. Virgins sell for less than that, and cell are less than $5.00.


 Those would be give away prices around here. Local queens are hard to find in my location. I'm fairly close to Canada on the West Coast. 

But some of those were from my Glenn breeder queen..I thought $10. was decent. Especially since they had no problem dropping $30. or $40. on a mated sister queen


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## jim lyon

Lauri said:


> Maybe that's why
> But some of those were from my Glenn breeder queen..I thought $10. was decent.


It is, of course, whatever the market will bear. Typically cells will sell from $3.00 on up. $10 may not be out of line if you are dealing in smaller quantities with proven genetics and a local demand for it but you are probably not going to sell many at that price.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Velbert said:


> Hi Daniel Y do you raise very many queens i am just _very small operation had about 400 mating nuc's_ last year.


_Daniel Y's_ apiary is a little bit smaller than _Velbert's _"_very small operation with 400 nuc's_". 



Daniel Y said:


> I think I may have lost my top bar. No surprise there that colony was, A new word to me, A dink. In person I use far more colorful phrases to describe it. I didn't find out until to late what I should have done with it. Which was pinch the queen and use the bees to boost my *two nucs*.


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## Daniel Y

Velbert I have produced a grand total of 12 queens or so to date. I am just doing homework on breeding queens in the interest of having a full queen breeding operation in a bit over 4 years. I have been pouring over a lot of research papers the last few days. Your post caught my interest in just the numbers of losses so I sort of gave it a closer look.

I am mainly gathering up what others say and have measured observed collected or whatever. so take it for what it is worth. No argument from me that a windy afternoon can scew results drastically.


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## KevinR

I'm planning on a 80% take on grafted cells and a 80% take on mated cells.

I've had 100% success and 98% failure on grafts. I've had 100% success for mated queens and had some nucs that just refuse to be ruled by her majesty.

I think that as long as you plan accordingly with finances and resources, then you should know where your profit margins are.

I'd love to have 100% take on grafts and 100% takes on mating, but I don't think it's feasible.

So if I'm running 100 mating nucs, I'll graft 120 cells. ((Probably more, because it doesn't take long)). Then I should be able to plan on getting 80 queens back in the yard.

Now the question is. What percentage of those 80 queens will be sell worthy. Some of those ladies will have been slumming on the wrong side of the tracks and just refuse to work.

Michael/Velbert/Others

What percentage of your returned queens are not up to par?

Thanks for all the great information.

-Kevin


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## jim lyon

We typically average around 80 to 85% cell acceptance and then about the same 80 to 85% "catch" on those accepted cells. Its always nice to have plenty of extra cells so that you can afford to cull the smaller ones. Sure we have years where we run better and years where we dont. Its anyones guess what happens to those 15 to 20% that miss, perhaps a bad wing or lost her way home or maybe there was nothing at all wrong with her but for some reason the bees just didnt want to accept her. I have re-celled nucs a few days later when we end up with a significant number of extra cells rather than just throw them in the garbage. While it seems like that would improve your acceptance a little I have, in fact, never noticed that it helps at all, which would indicate to me that most of the misses were queens that just dont return to their original hive after mating. I am pretty much convinced that the biggest variable in queen catch is mating weather.
Im not real sure what you mean by "returned queens" not up to par. I can only reiterate that poorer acceptance usually means poorer mating conditions and hence more of the queens that did mate likely to go bad as the season progresses.


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## Velbert

Hi Kevin

5% of your 80% mated and laying queens could be a bit more or less

and i will use these not so good queens that i wouldn't sell,and put them in my problem nuc that the workers are starting to lay along with a frame of eggs and just hatching eggs to to get these back on track. Then when its time to pull queens from the good laying nuc i will cage these and repete the process and lots of time i have just directly introduce these with a 75% turn out (feed at this time) then these are in the Wright time frame to re-cell with the rest.


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## Daniel Y

Sorry I woudl have had this done sooner but was out of town most of yesterday got a late start this morning and had to do some running around.
Thank you again michael for putting this info out there. 
My revision of Michaels breeding system from day 1 to day 38 complete with a new schedule starting every 4 days.
Day 1 Schedule A Set up Cell Builder
Day 2
Day 3
Day 4
Day 5 Schedule B Set up Cell Builder
Day 6 Schedule A Grafting comb in breeder
Day 7
Day 8
Day 9 Schedule C Set up Cell Builder
Day 10 Schedule A Check CB for queen cells
Schedule B Grafting comb in breeder
Day 11 Schedule A Graft
Day 12
Day 13 Schedule D Set up Cell Builder
Day 14 Schedule C Grafting comb in breeder
Schedule B Check CB for queen cells
Day 15 Schedule B Graft
Day 16 Schedule A Re-unite CB
Day 17 Schedule E Set up Cell Builder
Day 18 Schedule D Grafting comb in breeder
Schedule C Check CB for queen cells
Day 19 Schedule C Graft
Day 20 Schedule B Re-unite CB
Day 21 Schedule F Set up Cell Builder from Sch. A for second round
Schedule A Cells Ready
Day 22 Schedule E Grafting comb in breeder
Schedule D Check CB for queen cells
Day 23 Schedule D Graft
Day 24 Schedule C Re-unite CB
Day 25 Schedule G Set up Cell Builder from Sch. B for second round
Schedule B Cells Ready
Day 26 Schedule F Grafting comb in breeder
Schedule E Check CB for queen cells
Day 27 Schedule E Graft
Day 28 Schedule D Re-unite CB
Day 29 Schedule H Set up Cell Builder from Sch. C for second round
Schedule C Cells Ready
Day 30 Schedule G Grafting comb in breeder
Schedule F Check CB for queen cells
Day 31 Schedule F Graft
Day 32 Schedule E Re-unite CB
Day 33 Schedule I Set up Cell Builder from Sch. D for second round
Schedule D Cells Ready
Day 34 Schedule H Grafting comb in breeder
Schedule G Check CB for queen cells
Day 35 Schedule G Graft
Day 36 Schedule F Re-unite CB
Day 37 Schedule J Set up Cell Builder from Sch. E for second round
Schedule A Mated Queens Ready
Schedule D Cells Ready
Day 38 Cells ready to re-cell mating nucs


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## Joel

Is everyone using full sized equipment for mating nucs?


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## Velbert

I use Mini Nucs


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## Lauri

http://s425.photobucket.com/albums/...n=view&current=6faef8fd.pbw&ps=1&t=1354487574


(To stop pic in the slideshow, just click on them)
Experimental mating nucs. Before you make them, ask me if there are any design changes I would make. They all worked well, just some things I would do differently next time.
The colonies over wintering in the Danant deeps however, are snug as a bug in a ...well, you know.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

Joel said:


> Is everyone using full sized equipment for mating nucs?


Deep 5 frame Nucs, Medium 5 frame nucs, 4 way queen castles, 3 way queen castles and this year I'm adding 1/2 frame mating nucs to experiment with. My favorite are the 5 frame nucs.


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## Michael Palmer

Daniel Y said:


> My revision of Michaels breeding system from day 1 to day 38 complete with a new schedule starting every 4 days.


Fun, eh? Try that for three months. 

The best part of the schedule is that I always remember what day it is...I mean, I remember what I'm supposed to do for the day. Rain or shine.

So my days from May to August are: one/five, two/six, three/seven, four/eight...and I wake up in the morning asking what today is. Not what day of the week, but what day in the schedule. A one/five...a fun day...I harvest cells from the cell building yard, take them to the mating yard and re-cell the mating nucs, and then make up 4 more cell builders in the afternoon.

May the schedule...be un-broken...by and by lord, by and by....


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## Michael Palmer

Joel said:


> Is everyone using full sized equipment for mating nucs?


4 way minis.


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## gregstahlman

Sundays off during queen season????? i will run that one by the bosses and see how well that goes lol


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## jim lyon

Everyone in the queen business dosent observe the same kind of March madness that we do Greg. Because queen season can last for much of the year in some operations grafting on Sundays but not Thursdays really does happen.


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## Daniel Y

Michael Palmer said:


> Fun, eh? Try that for three months.
> 
> The best part of the schedule is that I always remember what day it is...I mean, I remember what I'm supposed to do for the day. Rain or shine.
> 
> So my days from May to August are: one/five, two/six, three/seven, four/eight...and I wake up in the morning asking what today is. Not what day of the week, but what day in the schedule. A one/five...a fun day...I harvest cells from the cell building yard, take them to the mating yard and re-cell the mating nucs, and then make up 4 more cell builders in the afternoon.
> 
> May the schedule...be un-broken...by and by lord, by and by....


Actually, Looking at it it looks like a very manageable system. long complex list but when it breaks down I look at it and ask myself how I would stay busy 
Now the bad news. You are in my cross hairs as one of my favorite breeders. that means you get to be pestered at every turn for a while. I will also be expecting you to supply me some breeder queens in the future. A couple years away on that one.

I know I should just go look at your web site and I will. I have been their before but this time I have to file that information somewhere.

For now what breeding nucs do you use and why have you chosen those? (oops just saw your post below about 4 way minis.)

So far I am liking a 5 frame nuc maybe a smaller single nuc and here is why.

I am concerned with the mated queens ability to move and exorcise and how it effects both sperm reaching the spermathica and how it helps her clear her oviducts after mating. basically I have found info that says queens with room to run around are heather and more fertile. 

Same info says the same issue but mainly the spermathica issue requires a min temp in the nuc (34 degrees C) in order for sperm to migrate at highest rates. Assuring temp control requires a min population of bees. Something in the neighborhood of 1000 bees per nuc. I also want each nuc to be separate and independent and I am concerned that the mini nucs will just be to small for a good population or even good exorcise room. I think the room issue is more of a problem on the queen cage scale though. I know individual units of any kind will boost costs. Oh well. gotta do what I gotta do. and I am just making the list. Higher costs just means I start smaller.

But any info on what size nuc is still big enough and still handles the above issues would be appreciated.


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## Daniel Y

On the issue of season. I may actually have to set up shop as much as 2 hours from home, not sure. Reno does not have the best climate for this. May is probably the earliest I can expect bees to be getting really busy and that is just goign to be a couple months behind as far as breeding goes.

So for anyone looking at a Breeding rotation. You might want to first consider where you are rotating them to. Even if you can't consider a 2 hour commute. Most places have little pockets of warmer locations etc. That little patch of ground next to a lake or pond may tend to stay a bit warmer in the spring for example.

Warmer more sheltered abundant resources in the area are all little things that will add up. I can't say this specifically for bees. but I am far from being a stranger to breeding in general. And little things matter.

IF I where still in Kansas I know of a little Pond, Very deep so it has a huge mas to it. that is set right down in a pocket of a canyon. nearly no wind ever. but it faces south and gathers the suns energy all year round. That little pocket is a good two weeks ahead of the surrounding country side every spring. That is where I would put a breeding yard. Plus it has the added bonus of good fishing in that pond. I could use queens that don't measure up as bait.


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## sqkcrk

jim lyon said:


> It is, of course, whatever the market will bear. Typically cells will sell from $3.00 on up. $10 may not be out of line if you are dealing in smaller quantities with proven genetics and a local demand for it but you are probably not going to sell many at that price.


When it comes to small quantities of queen cells, what you are paying the producer for is the inconvenience of handling small quantities when they often handle 100 at a time.


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## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> When it comes to small quantities of queen cells, what you are paying the producer for is the inconvenience of handling small quantities when they often handle 100 at a time.


Amen to that. Been there done that. I made the mistake of advertising cells a couple years ago without specifying minimum quantities. I ended up spending more time filling an order of 2 than an order of 200. I also re-learned an obvious lesson.....don't ever graft a large order for someone that you haven't dealt with before unless you have at least a sizable down payment. Delivery day comes and you cant get a call answered or a message replied to. Grrrr. Throwing beautiful cells in the garbage can is a pretty sad sight.


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## Daniel Y

Powerful pint Mark that is lost on a lot of people. I have done a lot of packing and shipping in the past. You get to loving the bigger orders fast. and not because you sold or made more on them. My stuff was a non profit sort of thing for groups like this one. It takes just as much time to pack up. print postage take a package to the post office for one items as it does 100. Okay gathering up 100 pieces takes a bit longer but not by as much as you might think.


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## Daniel Y

Jim, I have always required a deposit on large orders. no mater what it was i am doing. Home remodeling or repair the deposit covers the cost of materials. in any sort fo woodwork it covers my material costs as well as pays me for my time. in producing bees I would figure the cost of my materials and time and they woudl pay that or I woudl not accept the order. It cost you to make those cells that went into the trash. I insure that in the worst case it didn't cost me on penny I may not make anything but I am not goign to pay for someone to be a flake.


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## Michael Palmer

Daniel Y said:


> I know I should just go look at your web site and I will. I have been their before but this time I have to file that information somewhere.
> 
> I am concerned with the mated queens ability to move and exorcise and how it effects both sperm reaching the spermathica and how it helps her clear her oviducts after mating. basically I have found info that says queens with room to run around are heather and more fertile.
> 
> Assuring temp control requires a min population of bees. Something in the neighborhood of 1000 bees per nuc. I also want each nuc to be separate and independent and I am concerned that the mini nucs will just be to small for a good population or even good exorcise room.
> 
> But any info on what size nuc is still big enough and still handles the above issues would be appreciated.


Web site?? Not me.

Exorcise? The Devil is in the details? Sorry, couldn't resist.

First, I would use a nuc box with your standard size queens. I expect you won't be raising many queens at first, and you need experience first and better equipment later if needed. 

As far as population in mating nuc, and whether or not a mini has enough bees to support the new queen, I can't really have an opinion on what you say above. My minis get plenty strong, and my queens are big fatties with good brood patterns. I find many productive and still laying happily along in their third year.

This is a 4 way, where one side has been expanded by removing one queen, and moving feeder to side wall. Are these nucs strong enough?











Is she laying well enough for your book learned theory?












Is she fat and long enough? Like them hairy legs?











Is the resulting pattern good enough for ya?










Don't read too much into the reports. Use what you have, change later as the need becomes apparent. Most importantly...Just Do It!


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## jim lyon

Daniel Y said:


> Jim, I have always required a deposit on large orders. no mater what it was i am doing. Home remodeling or repair the deposit covers the cost of materials. in any sort fo woodwork it covers my material costs as well as pays me for my time. in producing bees I would figure the cost of my materials and time and they woudl pay that or I woudl not accept the order. It cost you to make those cells that went into the trash. I insure that in the worst case it didn't cost me on penny I may not make anything but I am not goign to pay for someone to be a flake.


Good policy to be sure, queen cells don't have much of a shelf life. Sure I know you can cage them and hold them for a while or you can recell some recent nucs but I usually don't have the time built into my day for that. I had one guy who stood me up on a few hundred cells call me back a couple weeks later saying he could sure use some cells now. I said "tell you what, first you pay me for the ones that I had to throw away then we will talk". Never heard from him again. Guess I am just a bit too trusting of others, as my signature says.......


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## Ian

>>Don't read too much into the reports. Use what you have, change later as the need becomes apparent. Most importantly...Just Do It!

looking good Michael! I totally agree with you!


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## Daniel Y

Sorry Michael I get the Michaels mixed up just like everyone else. And you are right, nothing matters if you don't get results. I decided I like your results long ago. Thanks for the photos though. Pictures work good for me.
"Just do it"!?? but that is where it all gets messed up and nothing works! Reality is like gravity. just drags you down.


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## KevinR

It's easy to get wrapped around the axle trying to find the "best" way to do something. I've gone back an forth on queen castles, 2,3,4 frame medium and deep nucs, mini mating nucs, etc. One of these days, I'll figure out which and when each of them works better for me.


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## Ian

someone can talk about a particular aspect all winter, but if that someone does not actually get out and "do it" in the spring, all that talk goes for nothing.


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## jim lyon

"Just do it" I like it. Beekeeping and beekeeping theory always seems easy in front of a computer screen. Kind of like the boxer that thinks he has a good "fight plan"...till he gets punched in the nose. Suddenly your perspective changes.


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## Lauri

On the subject of selling queen cells, remember, I am just starting out. I never plan to be bigger that what I can manage on my own. Here is my situation:

Springtime usually finds me raising and selling vegetable seedlings, especially tomato plants. My customers come in, grab a few plants that total about $20.00. They whip out a $100. bill. There eyes dart around and they ask, 'What else have you got for sale?"

Hmmm...I'd have to be stupid not to recognize there might just be an opportunity here.

The bees and hive parts will add to my inventory. I'll carry some honey-but purchased honey from my supplier. I need to try to have each sale make it worth my time, since most people want to chat a bit. I really can't stand there chatting for an hour for a $3.00 tomato plant sale. 
My farm sales are just to help with the home farm costs, really nothing more. At least not until I am more established and organized. If I am going to open a package of tomato seeds, might as well grow them all and sell a few to help pay for the seed. Thats exactly how I got started. Not to mention the near fights over the tomato plants at my garage sale. LOL.

Offering queen cell sales in small quantities is no problem for me, since they almost always buy something else. 
Now I don't expect my tomato customers to buy bee stuff-except for honey, but my bee customers will absolutely buy tomato plants. 
This all allows me to do my agricultural 'experiments' as well. That's what keep my interest up.

I have always made at least two of everything. One for me, one to sell to pay for mine. Problem is, by the time I have completed the two items I usually see room for improvement and sell them both-so I can make the new and improved model. That is my problem and that's what got me into selling a few things. Those darn new ideas. It's seems to have the potential to be something larger. I'm just feelin' the waters so to speak, careful not to get into it to deeply yet. I'm not going to take out a loan to have instant inventory. I need to find my Niche first. 
I had a customer once ask me if I had any lettuce seedlings. I told him 'you can buy a whole bag of lettuce at Costco for the same price you can buy just a few seedlings. I didn't think anyone would buy them and didn't grow any'
He said, "that's not the point. It's the experience of growing, not just having the product'
That was a good lesson for me. 

I believe that is the reason most people start beekeeping, and are willing to spend money doing it. Not to get that jug of honey, but to experience the whole process start to finish..and beyond in most cases. Beekeeping IS addictive.

I'd be financially ahead if I didn't do any of this. I've had bad weather that's killed all my seedlings and of course lost bees over the winter. It's the work experience and product development that is my reward so far. Having a hobby that has a payday once in a while or keeps my husband from footing the whole bill is always the short term goal.

Sorry about getting so off topic. Just replying to a post.


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## Lauri

On the subject of queen castles or mating nucs, all the types I made worked well. They were slightly different, and it came down to ease of use . The ones that held five mini deep frames that hung on the fence were my favorite. Big enough for a strong mini colony, small enough to easily find the queen and easy on my back. No bending! Didn't take too many resources to get started and had enough room to strengthen. I don't know about you, but after examining frame after frame of regular deeps, my back gets tight after a few hours. The mini frames were so light and easy to work with.
Five deep 9 1/4" frames is the equivelent of 2 1/2 standard deeps. But with the mini frames, you have three frames in the _center _of the broodnest. You actually HAVE a center, not so with two frames. You only have the space between them. My point is, the bees did seem like the five mini frames better than two standard frames. They seemed to have a different 'contentment'. Maybe just my imagination, though










If your weather is warm enough, you can even make mini mating nucs out of a cardboard nuc box. Just divide it and give each and entrance. I wouldn't plan on making these as my main stock, but they would work in a pinch.









Here is a banking frame that will hold any queen or roller cage


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## KevinR

I'm in the same boat with my beekeeping. I always get distracted with making more bees or trying something new. I think I have beekeeping ADHD..

I'm planning to run it as a business this year and see how things turn out. Which was the primary reason for starting this post.

Also, I plan on copying your fence hanging mating nucs. (muhahaha)


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## Lauri

'Also, I plan on copying your fence hanging mating nucs. (muhahaha) '
You'll love them Kevin. The windows were time consuming to make and I didn't really use them, except to take a few pics. I'd eliminate them on my next batch.
I liked the hindged tops too.
I added the disk excluders to have the ability to control robbing and yellow jackets. They were bad last year. But this year I made sure the colonies were stronger and I had no problems-even when I fed. I'll post a pic of how I fed them with an inverted quart jar. I have to go out and take a photo..give me a bit of time.


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## KevinR

All, 

Do you have screened bottom boards on your mating nucs? I've read that sometimes the queen will go under the nuc, instead of through the entrance. I wondered if this was really an issue.

I haven't really noticed a big difference between screen or solid in my experiences.

-Kevin


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## Lauri

Yes, I did have screened bottoms and would eliminate them as well. Not for that reason, the queen going under them, but it would keep the nucs warmer. I had the foam board slide in, but the earwigs liked to congrigate there.

I used a piece of plastic, a food grade cutting board form the dollar store to be exact, for a inner cover. Mostly to keep the lid from sticking. It also was not necessary, but did keep the glob of pollen patty from sticking to the lid. These are nice if you have divided nucs and want to keep each colony corraled while inspecting the other.



























I also tried peg board to control my ventilation, but as I said, a solid bottom would really be best. At least in my cool northern climate. 


















I just used a butt joint, and they were plenty strong enough. I didn't want to make anymore until I got my box joint jig set up. Just to do a bit nicer job. They will last me for many years and I don't mind taking a little more time with the design and assembly.
I'll be working on the new and improved model soon and will post photos and measurements.


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## KevinR

I'll try both and see if I can document my success/failure.

I really need to figure out a way to feed my bees pollen patties without growing an army of SHB.


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## Joel

Post like this really are the bomb. It's good to know I always have more to learn and there's others willing to teach. Thanks to everyone for posting the pics and sharing so much information.
Brian and I are breeding a 100 - 200 queens a year in 5 frame frame deeps like Dan, and last year in 4 frame deeps. With our 2 queen units in May/June we spent nearly 10K on queens last year and really want to do more breeding. We have picked out a few exceptional queen suppliers and of course will continue to buy to keep our stock fresh but let's face it the price and reliablity of queens can be a real crap shoot. 

Dan - you have tried several methods we have been considering and I'm wondering what your view is the full size advantage over the mini nucs.

Now the stupid questions - I have looked at the queen castles (mainly at the brushy mtn store), I like the concept a great deal but am wondering if the castles tend to loose more queens due to the potentail of bees intermingling when the top is open and frankly, at least the Brushy mtn unit, the internals and tops seem kind of loose and an invitation to queens getting a shot at each other. I am am also wondering where you get mini brood frames to replenish a hive mating nuc as you may have 7 - 10 days of a virgin queen in between breedings. How many breedings are you getting from a mini-nuc before needing to "re-make". Are your breeding yards completely isolated from your regular hive yards and as we increase I'm assuming we will need to increase drone production to insure good matings. We had considered drone combs in our best breeder hives to maximize our best drone breeders.


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## AstroBee

The thing I don't like about the Brushy Queen Castle is that they are only two frames for each compartment. Two frames are hard to keep going well, particularly once the summer dearth kicks in. This winter I'm building a bunch of three frame queen castles. I'm hoping that the 3 frame versions are much more manageable in my local climate. I've never experimented with the mini frames, but I guess I'd prefer to stick with one uniform frame size. Got enough bee stuff rattling around already..... 

Regarding the screened bottom boards: I had several queens come back and get confused where the entrance was and found themselves trapped under the hive. This happened on some divided 5-frame nucs that I built with a SBB, not the Brushy queen castle that uses a mostly solid bottom. At this point I really don't see a need for the screened bottom on mating nucs, and perhaps even production colonies. Just need to make sure the nucs have adequate ventilation.


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## beedeetee

I made my "queen castles" from a deep box and routed groves for 1/4" plywood dividers. I made divided the boxes in thirds and each third can take 3 frames. I have the 3 openings on different sides of the box. I actually like 5 frame nucs boxes better, but they take more resources. I don't think that I have a better final "take" with the 5 frame nuc boxes than the queen castles though.


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## Michael Palmer

Daniel Y said:


> "Just do it"!?? but that is where it all gets messed up and nothing works! Reality is like gravity. just drags you down.


Well then, get back up.


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## BeeCurious

> The thing I don't like about the Brushy Queen Castle is that they are only two frames for each


The mediums are three 3-frame sections. I was told by a breeder that two frames were better for introducing virgins. Why would that be?


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## Michael Palmer

Joel said:


> I am am also wondering where you get mini brood frames to replenish a hive mating nuc as you may have 7 - 10 days of a virgin queen in between breedings.
> 
> How many breedings are you getting from a mini-nuc before needing to "re-make". Are your breeding yards completely isolated from your regular hive yards and as we increase I'm assuming we will need to increase drone production to insure good matings. We had considered drone combs in our best breeder hives to maximize our best drone breeders.


My mating yard has 500+ minis, and is in the middle of 4 production yards. Plenty of drones in my hives. 

Not sure what you mean by the first sentence. 

Re-make the mating nuc? Why do you have to re-make it? Leave her there long enough and the new queen lays up the empty cells pretty well. Really, they get too strong and I pull a comb and give foundation with every catch. I get about three rounds from each nuc for the season. The mating nucs are wintered, built up in the spring, and split up when cells are ready at the end of May.


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## Lauri

Here's the feeder for that mini nuc. I wouldn't use it in a monsoon, but I've used it in the rain and it is fine, no leaks, no robbing, no problems. The hole is smaller that the lid so the jar rests on top the wood, not down in the hole. 




























While I am at it, FYI, if you feed with mason jars over a screen, be sure to punch your holes (With a leather awl or equivelent tool) and then invert the lid. 










They can't quite reach the syrup throught the screen if the lid is slightly concaved. I use wide mouth jars because more bees can access more holes at one time. Here is how I get rid of my syrup when it is getting close to fermenting. All these jars were full when I set them out. But the wide mouth jars always empty faster. I generally don;t feed this way to avoid encouraging robbing and always set the jars away from my hives.



















Heres some feeding through a screened inner cover. This is a fall photo, Dadant Beemax deep quad with two of the dividers removed to house two mating nuc colonies.










Half of my mating nucs were divided deeps . With a one gallon feeder to start until they got too full of bees. Works very well.









I did a few divided shallows, but couldn't use an inner feeder. I liked the deeps better


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## AstroBee

BeeCurious said:


> The mediums are three 3-frame sections. I was told by a breeder that two frames were better for introducing virgins. Why would that be?


My problem has nothing to do with introducing virgins, but simply colony size during tough times. My guess is that a small the hive (2 frames), hence smaller population, will give fewer problems when introducing virgins.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

Joel said:


> Dan - you have tried several methods we have been considering and I'm wondering what your view is the full size advantage over the mini nucs.
> 
> Now the stupid questions - I have looked at the queen castles (mainly at the brushy mtn store), I like the concept a great deal but am wondering if the castles tend to loose more queens due to the potentail of bees intermingling when the top is open and frankly, at least the Brushy mtn unit, the internals and tops seem kind of loose and an invitation to queens getting a shot at each other. I am am also wondering where you get mini brood frames to replenish a hive mating nuc as you may have 7 - 10 days of a virgin queen in between breedings. How many breedings are you getting from a mini-nuc before needing to "re-make". Are your breeding yards completely isolated from your regular hive yards and as we increase I'm assuming we will need to increase drone production to insure good matings. We had considered drone combs in our best breeder hives to maximize our best drone breeders.


This will be my first year experimenting with minis. I have used 5 frame nucs for the last few years for management reasons. My last round of queens stays in the nuc over winter to be sold as a 5 frame nuc in the spring. Each nuc gets supered with another 5 frames and fed till the top box is full. In the spring I sell off 5 frames and have 5 frames to continue the mating nuc. I'm wanting to try wintering a bunch of the half frame mediums to be able to make more mating nucs up quickly in the spring. It's all about what works for you. I'm not a big queen rearer but the small things make it a lot easier and saves a lot of time. Working a full time job and having two young kids takes it out of my family during bee season. I have 1- 4 way queen castle and I hate that thing with a passion. I have a hard time getting good queen matings in it and keeping it going just right. I have a few 3 way queen castles and they do pretty good. If I was going to go the queen castle route I would make more 3 way with each holding 3 deep or medium frames. I prefer the 5 frame nucs they are easier to feed and have plenty of room to grow if I have more queens then I need for that week. They are also nice to harvest full frames of brood from to make splits. :thumbsup: But, it does take a little while longer to find the queens. Take my information with a grain of salt. I'm still learning lots and only ran 75 mating nucs this year.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

Ian said:


> >>Don't read too much into the reports. Use what you have, change later as the need becomes apparent. Most importantly...Just Do It!


I couldn't agree more!!!


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## JSL

Mike,

Am I reading your post correctly? 500+ minis in your mating yard? Do you have all of your nucs in one yard? I am just trying to think in terms of what resources will support in my area for yard size. 500 minis would equal roughly 50 double deep colonies, is this correct? Do you have to do any feeding of your nucs? I know you have some pretty good summer forage in your area.

Thanks,
Joe


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## Michael Palmer

That's right. They are all in one yard. 500 minis would be the same as 250 four frame nucs. I have to feed some when I set them up, if I haven't got enough mini frames of honey. After that, during the mating season, I don't have to feed. Actually, we catch the queen, remove a comb of honey, and add a frame of foundation, because they're getting so crowded. 

How strong is the flow in my valley? One day we were catching queens. Added the foundation to the minis and moved on around the circle. About 20 minutes later, we went back into one nuc, I forget why, and the foundation was nearly drawn. 20 minutes Joe!

Sometimes in August there can be forage issues. In 2011, we had a drought, and no late summer flow. Bees couldn't raise brood, varroa decimated what brood they had, and I lost all the mating nucs. As per our phone conversation, this winter I'll be building supers that hold 10 mini frames. These will go on top of the expanded minis after the last catch. If we're in drought conditions, I'll move them out of the valley to the foothills.


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## Daniel Y

JSL, I can tell you that 500 minis (deep bodies split 4 ways) would be 125 deeps or 62.5 double deep colonies.

Everythign I have sen on Cell Builders says you need to feed them. that has to do with wax production. A mating nuc must have a feeder and be ventilated because the bees spend days at a time confined to it. Not all queens form a particular deep are allowed to make mating flights at the same time.


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## Daniel Y

Michael, with 4 frame nucs are you able to release both queens in that nuc for mating flights at the same time?


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## jim lyon

In addition to the mess it can make have you ever had problems with bees "cutting" cells in a heavy flow. I love a lightbuildup flow but my experience has been that a heavy flow can create a lot of problems.


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## Daniel Y

I have a question from what I read in Jim's post above. Why is cell cutting considered a problem. From what I understand it is the result of bees shortening honey storing comb back to brood rearing depth. Since the brood nest is in constant fluctuation this seems about as much of an issues as having to make comb in the first place. or cleaning cells after each bee emerges.

I am not sure I am thinking of the same thing though.


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## Lauri

I wanted to build box's to hold mini deep frames. My box joint jig isn't set up yet and I really didn't want to make butt joints. Here is the prototype box's I used last year, made with standard 10 frame deeps. The only thing I am doing different this year is making them out of 8 frame deeps instead of 10 framers.

This box is so versatile-you can use it as a 6 frame nuc or for mini frames-or both.

I staple in a follower board as a divider and frame holder. Internal feeder on the other side. With the 10 frame box's I added another frame on the off side just to control the empty space, but the bees will _never_ build burr comb there. They will cross the barrier to feed, but never to build comb. If I put a frame of honey on the other side they empty it and move it to the mini frames. 
Here's how standard frames fit into the space:









I run one long side of my box on the router table to cut a shelf for one side of the frames to rest on. You can do it before assembly, but you can also do it after.
Here's the same box with the mini frames:









(I have a photo of the box occupied with bees, but am still looking for it)
Here is how it fits with a one gallon feeder. This is the configuration I will use in the 8 frame deeps.










The last thing to do is make a follower board to divide the mini frames-and you turn your growing box into two instant mating nucs. Just make you bottom board ready to accommodate the divider and two entrances.










A grove in the box for the divider is not necessary, but if your follower board is just slid in with out a grove, be sure you don't accidentally move it when manipulating the frames.

This is also nice for combining mini frames and standard frames. Place a few standard frames of bees and brood on the small side. Then they'll combine nicely. Once the brood has all hatched they'll only store honey on that small side, queen won't go over there.

I actually made a combo box for one larger colony and two separate mini mating nucs..LOL yes it worked well and would be great for a person who just wanted to raise a few queens. (Shown here with four frames in each mating nuc side, I would suggest using three instead) Remember, the queen won't go over the divider, So to stock the small sides, you need to move frames with bees, brood and stores to prepare them for your cell insertion. Then add your ripe queen cells and seperate from the parent colony with top inner covers. 

Hmmm, I think I need to make a video.










Here is that combo box in use. Just remember to allow for separations on the bottom board and give them separate entrances. Separating the top is easy. Cut thin wood inner covers for each section-then top with one lid. Also, this photo is Shown before I added the queen cells to the small sides.)










Dividing the box in half worked too, but I liked the above designs better. They are my version of a single colony box with more versitility and room than a five frame nuc:









Above photo shows why I make my mini frames 9 1/4" instead of the standard 9 1/8" Using a standard 3/4" piece of pine or cedar for the divider, a smaller frame will fall off one side or the other. Frames shown are 9 1/4" and they barely catch the edge. 

Here is a clean photo of the divided deeps with one gallon feeder.Very easy to make and use.










Screened bottom board for divided deeps. I have some with the entrances on each side, some like this which work fine when you queens are already mated. Notice the 'front porch' is screened for my wet climate. 










Here is a combo box with two separate colonies-this is an October 2012 photo. A warm day with lots of very young bees congregating on a big soft protein patty. Right side is mini frames constructed from combining a few mini mating nucs, left side is a colony on standard deeps, 3 frames over 3, also from a mating nuc. 3 frames of bees, brood and queen below, I added three frames of stores above to over winter. They kept growing to fill up the sections nicely.










After this year I'll probably be having an equipment prototype sale to get myself standardized with all like equipment and designs. But for now, I'm having fun with it.


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## JSL

Mike,

Wow, 20 minutes is fast! It always amazes me what the bees can do when conditions are right. I might be able to put those numbers in a yard early, but our dearth starts about the first week of July and things can be a little ugly until mid-September. 

I think you will like the 10 frame boxes for the mini frames. I know I sure do. If only I could work nucs all the time!

Joe


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## jim lyon

Call me crazy but I really prefer having builders in an area where flows arent too intense. A few years ago I decided that we needed to have our builders in the area that has the heaviest spring flows and it didnt work out well. We had some cell issues with what we assumed was Yellow Jasmine and then when the flow hit we couldnt seem to keep enough foundation in them to keep them from making a mess of the cells. Didnt have many issues with "cutting" cells but I have sure heard a lot of stories. Moved back to the old yard the next year and had much better success. We just have a regular feeding program of up to a pound of syrup per hive per day plus some pollen sub. to help mitigate any potential Jasmine problems and always keep a sheet of foundation towards the outside to give them a place to relieve their desire to build comb. 
Baby nucs, I am quite aware, are a whole different scenario. We used our own design for a few years and now have reverted to simply making up a lot of standard deep 2 comb nucs in split 10 frame boxes with a frame of honey for feed. Seemed like we were always struggling with them being too heavy or too light. It serves our purposes better as we can just transfer them back into 10 frame boxes and let them grow if we choose not to cage and recell, I also love the room that the queen has to layout in, I feel it makes for a better quality queen, keeps your nuc populations up better and gives you a lot more flexibility from a time standpoint of when they need to be checked. It isnt thrifty with bees but the simplicity more than makes up for it the way we operate. A lot of great suggestions on here (way to go Lauri) that probably apply to most people interested in raising queens. I just thought I would give a little insight into how it works for us in the spring.


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## Michael Palmer

JSL said:


> Mike,
> If only I could work nucs all the time!
> 
> Joe


Guess you'll just have to come here for July and August.


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## JSL

Mike,

Sounds like fun! Friends that catch queens in commercial queen yards tell me there is nothing better than spending the day catching queens in the spring of the year when everything just seems to be going right.

Jim,

I agree with you. A nice steady, but not too intense of a flow, works best for building cells. As a kid I looked forward to the black locust flow, which normally lasts 10-14 days in mid May. Now, I do not like it at all! I generally set my cell builders up in late April or early May and can count on nice cells until the black locust blooms. Then the bees have a mind of their own and do not want to work cells, the flow is just too intense. Once the flow passes, I rework the cell builders and they are content to make nice cells again!

Joe


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