# Graft rejection from genetics?



## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

I recently acquired a new queen that is of mite biter stock. All my existing hives are from local survivor stock. The new queen is laying well. Her first brood won't emerge until next week.

I want to produce several daughters to build up to overwinter as insurance. I have grafted 3 times into 3 different cell builders, and every time they clear the cups out. This most recent attempt, I checked just an hour after placing the graft frame, and it was cleaned out! I've grafted before with good success rates, so I know the process, had larva of exactly the right age. Might they be rejected since they are genetically different? Maybe I'll have to graft to a builder made from her own workers. Any suggestions?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Are you using a queenless Cell Builder?

Are you *Danged Certain* that they have no brood from which to make their own queen cells?

They should be 5- to 10-day-old nurse bees, over-fed, queenless, and NO HOPE WHATSOEVER of finding a grub worm from which to make a queen.

You should hear the Cell Builder screaming.

Wah-Lah! You introduce a frame of grafts. If the above conditions are met, they will build queen cells from the grafts.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

kilocharlie said:


> Are you using a queenless Cell Builder?
> 
> Are you *Danged Certain* that they have no brood from which to make their own queen cells?
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:

You took the words right out of my mouth. The problem is with the cell builder.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

What is your outside bee environment like?
Feed them if you have to. And make double the number of cells that
you need. Let's say you only wanted 5 mated queen. So for the graft you
have to make 20 cells. Also no open broods at the time of the graft only the
grafted cells put in. Over the QR (queen right) hive will reduced the chance of a 
success when they got a really strong laying queen. It is better to house them inside
a crowded nuc bomb hive.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

It would seem my technique might be the issue. I built a builder nuc as I have on previous failed attempts, two frames capped, one frame pollen and nectar, empty space for the graft frame, two shakes of additional nurses. I put two cups here. I also placed a bar with 8 cups in a 20f queenless hive. In the nuc both were fed and waxed. In the 20f hive, 5 of 8.

The only difference I can tell... I culled a queen cell from a hive and used the jelly to prime the cups, something I didn't do on the fails as I had no QCs or jelly. I guess maybe in the unprimed cups they dried too much before tended to? Lesson learned, I won't be grafting without a bit of jelly!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You have to keep your grafts from drying out - that's for sure. I keep a mister full of warmish water handy for both the frame of grafting material, and the cups. Once a graft is made I keep it covered with a damp paper towel. 

You should try grabbing a frame out of your regular hive and doing a few grafts from it side by side with the different genetics and just see if they selectively clean out one kind and not the other. Then you will know if that is the problem or not. Anything is possible. You can always do a Cloake board with the queen mother hive if it is. If that hive is strong enough.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

kilocharlie said:


> ... and NO HOPE WHATSOEVER of finding a grub worm from which to make a queen.


You know, I used to think that was important too, but I have found that it isn't necessarily the case. You can put your grafts right next to a frame of young open brood, and they will do just fine as long as the cell builder is really densly populated, well fed and queenless.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

I always keep the cups and frame in a damp towel while working. I think they must have dried between then and when the bees finally began tending to them... Or the damp towel doesn't work as well as it needs to on these 90+ days.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

My money is on open usable cells or qr cell builder. After that would be technique, etc.

I never prime qc cups. If they let the cells dry out they didnt want to draw them. 

Agree with using a damp towel while grafting


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

It could also be the time it takes you to graft.

My score went way up when I tried to make 1 bar at a time in less than 10 minutes (with a good frame of larvae from which to graft I'm done with a 15 cell cup bar in less than 4 minutes), placing them in the CB as I went, that is - pulling the queen cell cup frame back out of the CB and inserting the 2nd grafted bar into the frame quickly and dropping it back in place with minimal disturbance.

It's quite a sight to see that in 10 minutes how many very enthusiastic bees are attending those grafts on the first bar when I go to put in the second bar! Gobs of them desperately making queens.

Also, try video recording your self at the grafting table with the camera angle over your shoulder. You'll likely spot where your time is being used.

I, too, use a spray bottle of 95 degree F water. I keep it and my cover towel submerged in a bucket. The bucket cools to 94 by the time I get finished.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I use no spray bottle or damp cloth. If possible input the donor frame in the cell starter for a few hours (lots of food in the cells), and I work as quickly as possible (cell builder and donor colonies are on porch 10 feet from my bed).


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> You have to keep your grafts from drying out - that's for sure. Anything is possible.


KC, I am on my way to make a non-graft frame where the queen can lay directly into the cells (silicone) that will
turn out to be an extra tall and wide plastic queen cup. I'm tired of grafting and brushing the bees off the
frames. I don't have the option to just walk 10 feet out to my hive for a graft. 
This way I can just pluck out the plastic queen cups and install them on the frames in the hive. Having the
young eggs that hatch in day one to be well taken care of will make some great queens for me. I have a vsh queen that I
like to graft using the non-graft frame method. Hopefully this experiment will work out!


Reusable silicone plastic cups:


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Sounds like you are up to making a home-made Nicot or Jenter system...good luck!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

KC, don't be scare to experiment a little or a lot.
I believe that the OP success rate will be greatly increased once
he use the non-graft frame. That is why I said I'm frustrated with the low success rate
of acceptance and brushing off the bees with so much time invested in the grafting process.
Having such a frame will be cost effective and saves time too.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I guess I don't understand why it takes less time to use a graft less system than grafting.

1. Find queen, catch her, put her in laying cage.
2. Release her when eggs are in cells (open hive again).
3. Open up and manipulate the larva a few days later.

....I'm done grafting faster than I could find the queen in step 1.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You can say I'm lazy in this process.
I want to skip the grafting part so only remove the silicone and put
the plastic cells with a larva in it already to the builder hive. Other than that everything
is the same.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Grafting is easiest system out there, but non-transferred larvae often make better queens, especially for beginners. Michael Bush's website lists many of the systems - Doolittle grafting and all the others.

The Jenter box is an easy-to-use non-transfer system. You can get excellent queens from it.

DrJ - you may want to make up a special breeder queen isolation part of the hive using queen excluder material and give here some freshly-drawn combs to lay in. If you are grafting, get some of the black plastic foundation for the bees to draw out. When the breeder queen lays eggs in these, it is easy to see them against the black background.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

You're feeding the cell builder, right? In, or near a dearth, I like to get the feeder on several hours prior to the grafts being added.

My guess is that this is not related to the genetics, but some other issue. I've brought in many different types of genetics over the years and have never seen a problem. That said, I never tried the mite biter stock.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Just got a mite biter queens to Graft off of the 200 grafts looks like 90-95% I'm guessing a problem with your starters maybe?


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