# Small Cell Foundation



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Ron,

bwrangler has an informative writeup

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/implications/

interestingly he seems to believe clean wax is more important than cell size but never the less he gives a good explaination of the subject

most folks seem to think the supply houses don't want to recomend it to beginers in case it doesn't work for them
no liability

Dave


----------



## Jeff McGuire (Nov 18, 2005)

I started with small cell foundation in my 3 hives this past spring. I installed them right onto it so I didn't have to do the regression that many do to get them there. The first frames were drawn a wonkie but now it looks great. Check out Michael Bush's site Under natural cell http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm
I used the dadant 4.9mm wired and all mediums and now will start using starter strips of small cell and see it works out. I am sure it will work out great and will be cheaper than buying all wired too.


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

that's interesting Jeff
I did kinda the opposite
I started with the Pierco that came with my starter kit
then switched to starter strips over last summer
I got an awfull lot of drone comb
this year I've been feeding in some SC foundation
I think I'm trying to get to SC foundation in the central brood nest flanked by starter strips so they can do what the want for drones and stores

Dave


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What is the success that some of you veteran beekeepers have seen with small cell foundation?

I don't treat at all and use only natural and small cell size.

> And why in the supply catalog, is small cell foundation only recommended for the experienced beekeeper?

They don't want to explain that it will take a turnover to get the bees to draw it correctly.

>If I am reading things right, the small cell foundation is closer to nature than any other foundation. Is this not true?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

Yes, it's true.


----------



## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

i'm currently trying to determine what benefits I might have. I'm in an area where the state apiarist (not in alabama) recommends testing before treating as not all hives need regular treatments. This means that SC might not have a measurable effect as a "treatment" on Varroa. So I'm keeping one large cell to compare to. But I'm encouraged by others success. Don the Fat Beekeeper from Georgia runs a commercial package/queen business without treatments by using SC.

Why for the advanced beek? Getting bees to "regress" as Dee Lusby calls it requires a bit of manipulations and bee understanding. It can be done by beginners. In fact, I would start out immediately as a beginner rather than waste a season(s) letting the bees build comb that will only be replaced later. Just be ready to ask for guidance... but among beeks, there's always a few hundred ready to give guidance...

Waya


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

So if I start next spring with packaged bees, new wooden ware, new frames and all with small cell foundation, do you think I will have a problem getting the bees to draw out the small cell foundation.

Also, I have been working with a gentleman in my area that simply uses the FGMO, Tymol solution in a fogger for treatment. Is this a good treatment if you need to treat? 

Last, We are in the third week of August, and I have the oportunity to get some free bees. They are a feral colony that is currently in a house due to be demolished or burned by the fire department. I know that I would have to feed them through the winter, and was wondering what the advise was in this area? For a beginner, would you recommend to start out this way, battling winter, or wait until spring and start with packages and new equipment.


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Ron,

small cell foundation is 4.9 mm
regular foundation is 5.4 mm
Dadant sell's an intermediate size, 5.1 mm
if I were starting a package I'd get 10 sheets of that, then start giving them 4.9 mm once they get established and raise a round or 2 of brood
kind of step them down

on the cutout, I'd say go for it with the understanding it'll be real hard to get em thru the winter
you'll still learn a lot
do it soon so if they have to raise a queen they'll have time
this is based on the assumption you can't wait till next spring ( you said they're gonna destroy it)

Dave


----------



## shylock3 (Jun 8, 2006)

I plan on purchasing 5 colonies next year and using MB's reccomendations on small cell. If your beginning it's worth a try.
BY ALL MEANS SAVE THE BEES.


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

True they are going to distroy the house. I have one other feral colony in an old house that I may try and take out next spring. They are not going anywhere. 

What is the benefit of starting with one size foundation, and then stepping down the size?


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I'm guessing you'd get a package from Brushy Mountain
I think they'd be regular LC bees
they aren't likely to make the jump to SC very well in 1 shot
they were from 5.4 mm foundation
so put em in a box of 5.1 mm
no guarantee, but they're more likely to draw it out nicely
when you get ready to give em a second box use 4.9 mm
by this time the original bees are dead
the new bees were raised on 5.1 mm
they'll make the jump better
let's say b = 5.1 mm and s = 4.9 mm
take 2 drawn frames out of the bottom box
replace them with frames of 4.9 mm
stagger em like this
bbbsbbsbbb
that way you don't make to big a gap in the brood nest
it'll be late May so they shouldn't get to chilly
put the 2 frames of 5.1 in the new upper box like this
ssssbbssss
the drawn frames will bait them up into the new box 

oh yea, I forgot to mention
don't tell your friends you're playing mind games like this with your bees
they already think you're nuts for raising bugs









Dave 

I'll also mention that fat beeman in Georgia sells bees that are already SC so you can skip all this

and that iddee who posts on here a lot lives near you and knows all about cutting bees out of buildings, you might want to talk to him

[ August 17, 2006, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

I am not sure if iddee is the same person that I think it is or not, but if it is, he is my mentor so to speak. I need to ask him.


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

it helps a lot to have somebody for a mentor
all I had was this motly crue around here








they are soley responsible for my bees being alive

Dave


----------



## jessbee (Jan 13, 2006)

I started with small cell this year and the bees did fine. I use all mediums, so I bought the unwired SC deep from Brushy Mtn. and cut it in half with a pizza cutter. I put the halves in the frames in the first medium hive body, but I've used started strips from there and everything is going along swimmingly.

Be aware that anything can happen: swarms, supercedure, foundation melting out of frames (which by the way can result in beautiful natural cell or a great big mess), etc. It's a huge learning experience and not at all simple like it seems in the beginner books. My bees put me through the works.

But it's so interesting and fun. Good luck!

PS Don't buy a beginner kit. Read old posts on this forum (use the search) and pick and choose what you want.


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

The lates post from my mentor on the local county board is that there are two hives to be taken. One is on the inside of a barn door. Sounds like it would be a bit easier to get too.


----------



## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

NCBeginner, I'm going to ask this question for you.

Guys, what size is natural size comb, since that is what would be in the house and tobacco barn? Would it be an easy step to go from natural to SC, rather than from 5.4 to SC? The barn colony is 2 y/o. The house colony is the full depth of the wall, from ceiling to floor. I think it is safe to assume they are regressed from 5.4 to natural.

Yes, it's me. Hi, Ron.

I looked at the house bees today and it is a very old colony. The entrance is black for a foot around the hole and the wall is stained on the outside, through the wood, all the way down. Should be 150 lbs. of honey or more.

PS...I won't laugh at your full length beesuit on this one. I may even wear mine. It is a LARGE colony.


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

iddee

the conventional wisdom would be that if the hive was created by large cell bees it would be at least partly regressed (like the 5.1 step I suggested)
if it's from wild bees (ones that didn't come from some beeks hives) they would be fully regressed
how bout taking a metric scale and measuring some
not just any comb, but from the core of the brood nest
you're looking for 4.9 centimeters across 10 cells 
either way I would would think you'd want to put em on 4.9 mm right off the bat
it only cost a few pennies more and lot's of folks are reporting good results

BTW, the bee's I got from you are rockin









Dave


----------



## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Have you done a mite count on my Hopefuls? I'd like to know the results.
I am trying to give these two colonies away. I don't know how much involved I will be. From the vastness of the house hive, I would say they are now 100% natural, whatever that may be. Looking from the outside, they could be a new swarm moved in, but the comb itself, or the "hive", has been there for many years. The bees, well, they could be from any time.


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

since you gotta get em on some kind of foundation anyway, it would seem like a shame not to spend the extra dollar to use SC

I've been leaving the bee's I got from you alone and just giving them some syrup
I just put in a sticky board tonight
I'll report in 2 or 3 days 

Dave


----------



## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Ron, if you want to PM fatbeeman and get some of his SC, I will let you have the frames and boxes. Whatever they are in the house and barn, I'm quite sure they are smaller than 5.4. If I were going to SC, I would start all ferals on it .

Dave, as all businesses say, Good news, tell the world....Bad news, tell me only.  
Either way, I'll be waiting to hear.


----------



## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

I really enjoyed reading bwrangler's write up, and it matched what my bees (large) have drawn on their own just starter strips of foundation. My bees produce monsterous drones, some large workers, some tiny workers, getting smaller the further down the comb they go. New drawn frames get the same treatment, even though I cycled out the "large" frames. Huge cells at the top, large cells, then small ones. Healthy mix of bee sizes.


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

I am really sceptical about starting out with an up-hill battle on just getting them through the winter. I, as you know iddee, am a bit novis to say the least. Guess the rest of you are clued in on that with the "full length bee suit comment". I told him I was chicken the first time I went down. 

I will call you tomarrow. I am seriously thinking about it. Would you recommend treating them chemically this fall since they area feral colony?


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Ron

the bottom line is the bee's are gonna die anyway
(assuming the building is gonna be destroyed)
you may as well go get em and try to get em thru the winter
if we have a mild winter you can likely nurse em along
you win
if not you go into spring with some experience under your belt and a little drawn comb to start out with 
you win
go for it man, there's no downside
as far as mites go you gotta get em and check to see if they have a problem, then you can decide what to do about it

Dave

[edit] when are you going to get them?
maybe I'll come help
don't ya like how I invite myself









[ August 17, 2006, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

Wont be able to do anything until next week sometime.


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

Hey everyone, I am going to go ahead and get the bees. Wish me luck on getting them through. I guess this will be at the very least a great oportunity to learn. Regarding the use of small cell, here is a quote from a man in Orange County NC. Won't quote his name, just in case he would not approve. But here is his thoughts on it. 

"I've done a literature review on small cell foundation to control mites. The theory goes something like this: Italian honey bees will naturally make worker brood cells slightly smaller than the commercial standard foundation size. In effect, there is extra space in the cell that can harbor mites. By using smaller-sized foundation, the developing bee crowds out the mites, resulting in fewer mites. Proponents say that you must "regress" the bees to get down to the natural cell size; the first few generations will be squeezed bees, but further generations will be sized just right.
However academic studies refute this claim. They say that if you use small cell, you simply get small bees (and the converse is true, which is why C.P. Dadant or whoever it was that set the standard used foundation a little LARGER, so he would get LARGER bees). Once you get smaller bees, the playing field is the same as it was before - the mites have the same proportion of room to work with.
There's something I don't understand about the small-cell foundation hypothesis. The basis of the theory is that natural Italian comb size is a bit smaller than commercial size, so putting bees in a bit smaller cell will inhibit mite survival. But: natural Carniolan comb size is larger than commercial size, so Carniolans are ALREADY in small-cell foundation. I haven't heard anyone say that Carniolans are notably more resistant to varroa mites than Italians. I would think that someone would have noticed by now if that were true. But maybe I don't understand the whole issue."


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

well iddee
since I'm nosey and my bees are in my backyard, I couldn't resist
I went and took a peek at the sticky boards after 24 hrs
I must say I was shocked, SHOCKED!!
I thought when you got bees from a reputable beekeeper you could reasonably assume they would come complete with mites!
NO MITES!
I insist you go find me some mites and ship them to me IMMEDIATELY in an empty Apistan box








just kidding









seriously, they look great
the "hopefulls" had one and both of the other 2 each had two
I put the boards back in and I'll get a little better count over a couple of days but they're obviously very clean 
I don't think losing a lot of field bees in the move hurt em a bit
there's no flow going that I can tell (where's the golden rod?) I'm giving em syrup and they seem to be fine
BTW, you described them as being, how to say it, "testy"
I'm filling the syrup jars every day and I've poped the inner covers a few times and I've never lit a smoker or picked up a veil, I guess I'll look thru em this weekend
you come over here and check out my original hive, I'll show ya "testy" (bring your bee suit)
I'm scared to slide a sticky board under em without a veil
I think I know where a couple of queens need to come from and where they need to go next spring









Thanks for some nice bees
Dave

[ August 18, 2006, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Once you get smaller bees, the playing field is the same as it was before - the mites have the same proportion of room to work with.

Why? A larvae is genetically the same and is in a smaller cell, so the bee fills more of the cell regardless of how large or small the workers in the hive are.

But one of the HUGE benefits is one day shorter capping and one day shorter post capping times.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

>There's something I don't understand about the small-cell foundation hypothesis. The basis of the theory is that natural Italian comb size is a bit smaller than commercial size

Actually it's a LOT smaller. 

Dimensions of cells.According to Baudoux

Cell Width mm--Cell Volume mm3

5.555--301

5.375--277

5.210--256

5.060--237

4.925-222

4.805--206

4.700--192

From ABC XYZ of Bee Culture 1945 edition pg 126


> so putting bees in a bit smaller cell will inhibit mite survival. But: natural Carniolan comb size is larger than commercial size

Not by my experience. Commercial comb is 5.4mm. I have had carniolans draw as small as 4.7mm the first regression of drawing natural comb:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/47mmCombMeasurement.jpg

This is natural comb from a top bar hive drawn by unregressed commercial Carniolans.


----------



## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

ME? Reputable??? You've got to be kidding!!!

Since the "hopefuls" have never been treated, and the others have only had fgmo and thymol fog, which Dave W will tell you, doesn't work, I don't understand why you didn't get a nice large crop of mites. I guess I'll have to see if they migrated over to my other hives. I'll try to find you a few, but they are becoming rather scarce around here.


OK, Dave W., the ball is back in your court...


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

ahh, so now I get it
disreputable beekeeper and you stiffed me on the mites
well I definately know where I'm gonna go the next time I want to buy a box of bugs









back to the SC thing
it's clearly kinda like the OA thing
nobody quite knows how it works
but Michaels observation of the shorter times from capping to emergence would sure seem to be a disadvantage to the mites
and smaller cells mean less room for the mites to maneuver in the cells, regardless of if the bee's get smaller too
all the anecdotal reports seem to point to it helping with the v-mite problem
from a beginners perspective it cost almost nothing to try it
I'm a rookie, I don't know, but it's easy to try and I'm willing to test it for myself

Dave


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

Is the size of a developing bee in the Larva and Pupa state is SC the same ratio wise to that of a developing bee in standard foundation?


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Ron

good question
I don't think you'll find a conclusive answer
check this out

http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm 

there doesn't seem to have been much research done in this area and some of what you do find comes to conflicting conclusions
I think the bottom line is lot's of people seem to be getting good results and it's not difficult or expensive to try yourself
when starting a new colony you gotta put em on some kind of foundation
here's another interesting read

http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/cellsize.html 

Dave

[edit] here's some research I've collected
http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/docs/smallcell/

[ August 19, 2006, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is the size of a developing bee in the Larva and Pupa state is SC the same ratio wise to that of a developing bee in standard foundation?

Look at it this way. It is the same larva growing in a smaller or larger cell. In the large cell they get a bit bigger and never quite fill the cell. They get capped later (giving the mites more chances to get in) they stay capped longer (giving the another mite time to mature and mate) and there is some excess room for the mites to find each other and mate more easily. In the smaller cell they get capped a day sooner (giving less mites a change to get in), they fill the space completely (giving the mites less room to mate) and they emerge a day sooner (after capping) giving one less mite time to mature and get mated.

It's the same kind of larvae (genetically) it just has more or less room.


----------



## Craig W. (Feb 26, 2006)

Gosh, size rally does matter. LOL


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

Ok since things are not always perfect, and I don't have the time to waste getting small cell foundation here, we will go with regular foundation. 

I plan to help my mentor (iddee) get the bees out of the house on Tuesday and will place them on regular foundation, start feeding them, and hope for spring with live bees. I have a better idea, and understanding of the work that is involved in getting them to regress to small cell foundation. Should I choose to go this route, and get the brood nest on small cells, does all following equipment such as honey supers also need to be on small cell?

[ August 20, 2006, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: NCBeginner ]


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Ron

it's easier than that








you don't need the foundation right away
the first thing is to cut the combs out of the hive and tie them into frames and get em home
they'll likely need to raise a queen and even if they don't it will take them a week or two to get over the disruption of being moved like that
so you have plenty of time to get stuff together
you probably don't need foundation till spring
tuesday huh?
need a helper?

Dave


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

Check with iddee. He is my mentor, and coach for this process. He is going to be helping me get the bees into the box. He has been trying to get me into bees since early July. Guess I should have listened to him then. I had it in my head to wait until spring, and start then. He has really been a big help to me in answering several thousand questions, and letting me go into his hives. Really got me buzzing to get my own bees.


----------



## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

>>I plan to help my mentor (iddee) get the bees out of the house<<

NO, NO, NO

>>He is going to be helping me get the bees into the box.<<

Maybe

>>He is my mentor, and coach for this process<<

That's better.

You might want to come help him, Dave.
I'm going to hand him tools and point out what to do. It's his baby. 







   

PS. Dave, Party starts at 10:00 AM Tuesday. Call me if you can make it.

[ August 20, 2006, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: iddee ]


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

Wow, what a learning experience. I have heard of on the job training, but this my redefine that term. LOL. 

Looking forward to something new. I may need moral support if nothing else.


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

hehe,

Ron, I think iddee's gonna "throw you in the fire"








I would appreciate the opportunity to learn from a "pro" even if he stands back and supervises
I think I can get free tuesday, I'll let you know for sure tommorrow

Dave


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

Any help is greatly appreciated. I told the guy's at the fire station that if I come in all whelped up, they will know why.


----------

