# Manually fertilizing drone eggs



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

The egg shell hardens in seconds after being laid. It would take micro surgery to fertilize an already laid egg.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Per the referenced link, Germans had performed this previously, ad far back as 1919. It was written again in 1995. I would assume the wetting of the upper portion of the egg, even so briefly would allow for the sperm to penetrate the egg membrane.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Theoretically this would be feasible, however it would take quite a lot of organization. First the collection of semen which could be kept in a small syringe, but how long would this remain viable. Second you need to have a queen laying on drone comb and you need to follow behind her within a short time of her laying those eggs It would appear all that is necessary is to form a bulb of semen at the end of the syringe and dip that bulb over the top half of the egg. If these eggs are then fertilized I am not sure what the nurse bees will them, will they consider them diploid drones and then eat the eggs. If not you then have to graft them when the larvae emerges. So a lot can be gained if this will work, yet I have not heard of anyone trying this out.
Johno


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Several references indicate viability at room temperature for up to two weeks. This process could occur well ahead. Next, the queen could be confined on drone comb for several hours, and any eggs fertilized. I am curious at what point the nurses show concern for the fertile egg on drone comb. The papers indicate waiting the usual time and grafting as usual from the drone comb. This sounds like something interesting to tinker with next spring.

http://www.beeculture.com/instrumental-insemination/


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I do not know if the nurse bees would treat them differently, when I think about it diploid drones are actually laid in worker comb and the bees can sense them and remove them so there might not be an issue with fertilized eggs in drone comb. I do think that the egg would have to be fertilized a short time after being laid. Now if one had to do this and failed would it be due to the viability of the drone sperm or the sperm unable to penetrate the eggs membrane.
Johno


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

You might like to take a look at these two threads

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?319934-Queens-from-drone-eggs

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290483-Fertilizing-eggs-in-drone-cells


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Interesting, BUT WHY


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

Tenbears said:


> Interesting, BUT WHY


To breed a queen while having total control over the parents, useful if you wanted breed a pure-line of bees. Without the cost of II.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Stephenpbird said:


> You might like to take a look at these two threads
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?319934-Queens-from-drone-eggs
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290483-Fertilizing-eggs-in-drone-cells


Thanks for these. I know the idea isn't popular, and appears largely untested in recent years, though older writings seem to show it's possible. I'm not giving up just yet. I'd rather go the II route, but can't see spending that price at a hobby level. If someone popped out a usable model to do II for $50 maybe I'd just do that.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

DrJeseuss said:


> Thanks for these. I know the idea isn't popular, and appears largely untested in recent years, though older writings seem to show it's possible. I'm not giving up just yet. I'd rather go the II route, but can't see spending that price at a hobby level. If someone popped out a usable model to do II for $50 maybe I'd just do that.


There is a link on one of those threads to a thread on a UK beekeeping site, very well worth reading.

As for II, there is some info out there on simple homemade II apparatus. If your interested search for Laidlaw Goss pre set artificial insemination instrument. ABJ November 1990. or Kuhnert Laidlaw simplified apparatus.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

I like that unit, but can't part with $1,100 for one. I've been looking into tools and methods to cobble something together. It's been slow going so far. IF one could fertilize a drone egg it would allow for a backyarder to do controlled crosses for a minimal cost. This is what interests me with this possible technique.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

My point was that there are instructions/recommendations on how to make it yourself, I doubt the parts will cost $1100.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I would think that if manual fertilization of eggs were practical it would be a common practice.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Stephenpbird said:


> To breed a queen while having total control over the parents, useful if you wanted breed a pure-line of bees. Without the cost of II.


Please explain what control this offers? How do you know the qualities of the drone you pick to fertilize the egg. And what he is offering to the queen you intend to develop. If you chose a drone to donate sperm from the same hive as the queen who supplied the egg then you are creating a queen with identical gene sequences on both sides of the genetic string. Yes you are consolidating qualities. However you are also consolidating flaws. Some of which may be recessive and only appear when paired with genes bearing the same markers in the sequence.
If you are doing so with drones from other hives than you would again have only a measured control over visible traits of the drone, as drones are known to drift considerably. One can do that by keeping only queen that demonstrate the desired traits. 
As without the use of Artificial Insemination (AI) one has no earthly idea what the queen will breed with making her offspring whatever they are. Speaking of which. Some areas of the world are so inundated with Africanized bees that using the manual fertilization method to produce a queen them allowing her to open breed would simply be a total waste of time as one would have invested time in a queen that would be destroyed by most prudent beekeepers. 

Personally I think this is the silliest measure of wasting time I have ever heard of. Guess that is why it has become so obscure.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Tenbears said:


> Personally I think this is the silliest measure of wasting time I have ever heard of.


A lot of people would say that of watching tv, painting, whittling, gardening, yoga, baseball.... (I enjoy several of those as well) Some people take pleasure in learning, trying new things, exploring. I'm not proposing this as a ground breaking new replacement to II.

As to function; getting drones from a known source queen would be trivial. They would give genes of the queen, though not of that queens mates. This could mean selecting a queen for traits when the mates could be the genes you needed. It's certainly not perfect. The combinations could be retained by using a mix of this process and traditional grafting of open mated queens. This would allow selective control at alternate generations. As for the concern with ahb, not a concern in my area. That said, it would be irrelevant as a drone egg would not express those genes. This would allow recovery of a line even if the queen mated to ahb drones.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Bruce Jenner queens...


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

DrJeseuss said:


> A lot of people would say that of watching tv, painting, whittling, gardening, yoga, baseball.... (I enjoy several of those as well) Some people take pleasure in learning, trying new things, exploring. I'm not proposing this as a ground breaking new replacement to II.
> 
> As to function; getting drones from a known source queen would be trivial. They would give genes of the queen, though not of that queens mates. This could mean selecting a queen for traits when the mates could be the genes you needed. It's certainly not perfect. The combinations could be retained by using a mix of this process and traditional grafting of open mated queens. This would allow selective control at alternate generations. As for the concern with ahb, not a concern in my area. That said, it would be irrelevant as a drone egg would not express those genes. This would allow recovery of a line even if the queen mated to ahb drones.


The case in point is you still only have tenuous control over half the sequence. No matter how nice a queen you make. She is still producing brood of unknown lineage. Thus your fancy queen of pedigreed origin can still produce an entire hive of mean, poor producing, ailment receptive, junk bees. Making outside genetics all too relevant be they AHB or other! 
AHB was simply a reference, thus I noted "Some area of the world" There are poor quality bees everywhere as well as bees with varying temperament. No matter how hard you try to justify these archaic techniques as having some real value they. The reality of it is it is no different that those electric spheres sold at spencer's, Cute, but of no real value. Just sayin!


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Tenbears said:


> There are poor quality bees everywhere as well as bees with varying temperament. No matter how hard you try to justify these archaic techniques as having some real value they. The reality of it is it is no different that those electric spheres sold at spencer's, Cute, but of no real value. Just sayin!



Trying to wrap my head around your objection. Are you saying that II has "no real value" in general, or just using the methods suggested here? If your objection is that someone with a few hives that plans to utilize their existing stock to make significant genetic changes using II (even with professional gear), then I agree. That said, I find it interesting that a hobbyist wants to experiment with this technique.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

ABJ April 1920 pg 147
ARTIFICIAL EGG FERTILIZATION Mr. E.M. Cole of Audubon Iowa recently called my attention to the fact that the artificial impregnation of so called drone eggs as set forth by Gilbert Barratt in the American Bee Journal December 1919 page 415 is not a new idea but that Langstroth reported such a case. The statements referred to appear on the first page of the appendix in the 1914 reprint of the original and on page 41 of Langstroth's third edition. The latter reference reads Dr. Donhoff of Germany in the summer of 1855 reared a worker larva from a drone egg which he had artificially impregnated. Langstroth himself had attempted the same thing in 1852 without success but still held to the opinion that it could be accomplished under favorable circumstances. Apparently this paragraph has been omitted from the recent revisions of Langstroth but now that the subject is receiving considerable attention would it not be desirable to incorporate it in the next revision.--Wallace Park 
The reason why the experiment in question was left out of the Langstroth Dadant revision was that Mr Langstroth had failed and that we feared Donhoff had been mistaken. But the incident was entirely forgotten by me and I thank you for recalling it. It is now too late to incorporate it in the new revision which is just out. But later we may be able to add not only this but also additional facts I do not believe that the eggs which a queen drops involuntarily have ever been cared for by experimenters to ascertain whether they are fertilized or not. If it has been done has the result been invariably the same and what was the sex? These questions have a scientific and perhaps practical importance.--Editor 

https://www.researchgate.net/public...tance_by_an_egg_in_honeybees_Apis_mellifera_L


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Thanks much for this. It seems at least in the '20s they were talking of the experiments in Germany from the1800s. I'll continue with my curiosity.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

AstroBee said:


> Trying to wrap my head around your objection. Are you saying that II has "no real value" in general, or just using the methods suggested here? If your objection is that someone with a few hives that plans to utilize their existing stock to make significant genetic changes using II (even with professional gear), then I agree. That said, I find it interesting that a hobbyist wants to experiment with this technique.


Heck I do not even know what II is as no one has given reference to the acronym. But if it refers to Artificial Insemination (AI) then No! I have no objection to it. It is a technique I have used for a great many years. However AI of a queen bee is a sound practice of controlling parentage of a colony. Particularly if one seeks to maintain genetic breed purity. However, to use this technique to produce a queen, simply to have that queen open breed is an exercise in futility. I just wanted to know why someone would be so hyped on a technique that had little value and asked. The response made no sense. "To breed a queen while having total control over the parents, useful if you wanted breed a pure-line of bees. Without the cost of II." I too am trying to wrap my head around this. Please explain what value it has. 
You make a queen for whatever reason from a drone egg which may be from your prized queen. then manually fertilize it and graft it into a queen cup. the bees draw a queen. OKAY, so you have a queen of your chosen lineage. She is them permitted to fly out to who knows where and breed with who know what to produce a prized line of ??????. Certainly if someone has such a small operation that they do not have multiple colonies of their prized genetics. Then they do not have enough hives to flood the environment with drones to increase the odds of their prized queen not being a producer of mutts. 

I have no objection to this or any other practice of bee keeping. I simply wanted to know WHY? The above quoted response made even less sense. And no subsequent Answer clarified the forgoing information. 
A simple answer of to kill time. Or just find it interesting would have been satisfactory, and far better than trying to add credence to an although interesting, but useless endeavor. 

I will say it has been an interesting discussionary topic that has made me think about just how important proper AI is in maintaining quality bees.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Tenbears said:


> And no subsequent Answer clarified the forgoing information.
> A simple answer of to kill time. Or just find it interesting would have been satisfactory, and far better than trying to add credence to an although interesting, but useless endeavor.


I answered: Some people take pleasure in learning, trying new things, exploring.

My reasons are irrelevant. I initially asked if anyone had tried it or knew of the technique, out of curiosity, not from being 'hyped' as you say. I find the idea intriguing and it must be of some use to have been attempted by Langstroth, even if only to learn more of egg fertilization academically. As to the concern of open mating polluting the line, II (instumentally inseminated) queens have daughters that then open mate. Often this step outperforms the II queen from 'hybrid vigor' with the addition of unique genetics from a local population.

Thanks to those that have contributed reference to some of the early works. It has offered some interesting reading. I hope to be able to attempt this in the coming spring when a full drone frame comes a bit easier.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

DrJeseuss said:


> Thanks for these. I know the idea isn't popular, and appears largely untested in recent years, though older writings seem to show it's possible. I'm not giving up just yet. I'd rather go the II route, but can't see spending that price at a hobby level. If someone popped out a usable model to do II for $50 maybe I'd just do that.



Hi, slightly off topic but relevant. When performing AI with bees, there's quite a large amount of technique and procedure involved in managing virgins, drones and post-inseminated AI queens. 

Even if there were $50.00 AI set-ups available, using AI in a bee breeding program is an art that's learned over many years-- the bottleneck to success isn't solely that the device is expensive. 

Oh yes, you also need to have worthy stocks to make crosses with.


Back on topic now...

Thanks,
Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Instrumental Insemination (II). Artificial Insemination (AI)


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> Instrumental Insemination (II). Artificial Insemination (AI)



They are synonyms. We us "AI" since that's how the rest of the animal breeding world describes the technique. Nobody outside of Apiculture knows what the

heck "II" is. 

Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Tenbears said:


> However, to use this technique to produce a queen, simply to have that queen open breed is an exercise in futility. I just wanted to know why someone would be so hyped on a technique that had little value and asked. The response made no sense. "To breed a queen while having total control over the parents, useful if you wanted breed a pure-line of bees. Without the cost of II." I too am trying to wrap my head around this. Please explain what value it has.


Your comment above makes me realize your confusion. Think of what's being discussed as "real-time AI". Instead of putting all the sperm in at once and letting the breeder queen hold it, you're dispensing it on as needed. They are making F1 daughters on the fly  F1s are often open mated anyway, which is what this would achieve. Of course, you could do this again on the F1's drone eggs. In fact, if this could be done, one advantage is that you would have the option to experiment with a variety of crosses off the same queen (you can get that in varying degrees with II, but choices are made a priori, not real time). The queen has been mated (could have been done with II), but the drone eggs could be crossed differently. Again, totally hypothetical since this technique may not be achievable on any real scale. I can think of other hypotheticals, but until this is perfected, there's no point 

Not trying to defend it, but I understand the hypothetical situation.

BTW, I typically use "II" and others use "AI", they mean the same.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

Tenbears said:


> Please explain what control this offers?


As opposed to open mating, it would enables one to choose the father with 100% certainty. Not even an Island mating station can do that.



Tenbears said:


> How do you know the qualities of the drone you pick to fertilize the egg. And what he is offering to the queen you intend to develop. And what he is offering to the queen you intend to develop. If you chose a drone to donate sperm from the same hive as the queen who supplied the egg then you are creating a queen with identical gene sequences on both sides of the genetic string. Yes you are consolidating qualities. However you are also consolidating flaws. Some of which may be recessive and only appear when paired with genes bearing the same markers in the sequence.
> If you are doing so with drones from other hives than you would again have only a measured control over visible traits of the drone, as drones are known to drift considerably. One can do that by keeping only queen that demonstrate the desired traits


I have access to a database that predicts the outcome of mating between two pure Carnica queens by entering their pedigree numbers and year of birth. It will tell me the degree of kinship and a prediction of every trait. If don't like what I see I can just choose another Drone mother.
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/beebreed/ZWS/start.php?vRID=C



Tenbears said:


> Personally I think this is the silliest measure of wasting time I have ever heard of. Guess that is why it has become so obscure.


I hope you feel better now you have got that of your chest. May be it wont work, but You don't know that for sure. Some of us would just enjoy the journey even if it failed.


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