# No Veil Demos are Bad for Recruiting.



## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

I just attended the MN state fair and saw a beekeeper giving a demo in short sleeves and jeans. He had no veil or gloves and was making a point to let bees crawl all over his hand. I’m sure the intent is to show just how gentle honeybees can be.

However, I believe demos such as these may be contributing to the decline of beekeepers.

Sure, this demo pulled in lots of people, provided lots of interesting information, and answered questions but I don’t think the audience could get past the thought “Isn’t this guy getting stung?! He must be a masochist!”

Beekeepers wear veils (with some minor exceptions). Why are demos not accurately depicting this hobby/profession? Instead they make it look like a club for crazies. I understand things like bee bearding and other death defying stunts get in the news but when we have an opportunity like a state/county fair lets make beekeeping look like something the average person can do.


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## beegeorge (Apr 19, 2012)

I think a veil should always be used,, if one gets stung in the eye - sight could be lost.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Wearing PPE is a personal choice, there's no laws against not wearing anything. After taking a sting to the nose just observing... well mainly observing.... guess what, I wear a veil now all the time. Now I don't worry about getting stung or buzzed and can be that much more relaxed when I'm out there. I don't think not wearing anything empowers anyone, once you get a hive and think about opening it up most sane people start looking up bee suits and veils....


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

I'm sure there are lots of stories out there about getting stung in the face, I've got a couple myself. The veil is a necessary part of beekeeping, I don't think anyone would argue against that. At some point every beekeeper encounters a defensive hive. 

When and what protective clothing you wear is entirely up to you, however when you are demonstrating beekeeping to the public please portray a hobby/profession that might appeal to others so that beekeeping doesn't continue to be a dying art.


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## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

I personally always wear a veil and gloves, even if otherwise I'm wearing shorts and a T-shirt, because there _are_ two places that I do not wish to be stung: my head, and my hands.

I know that under ordinary circumstances bees aren't that likely to sting, if you move slowly and deliberately. For that reason, while I always have a suit at my disposal, I often elect to dispense with it. (Summers around here are a sauna-bath enough as it is...) But I'm not, per se, trying to make any sort of a "statement." Honeybees are stinging insects; therefore, they might sting you anywhere (that you allow them to), at any time. No harm, no foul ... it's simply what they do. "Plan accordingly."

Sure, I don't mind showing people that bees can crawl all over you without stinging you. I spend a lot of time with my bees and I don't fear them. Hence, I'm going to do what I normally do. But, I'm always going to recognize that they are ... _(a)_ "stinging" ... and _(b)_ for pete's sake, they're just "insects!" Therefore, my _hands_ are going to be covered (aside from the obvious fact that beehives are also sticky!). And my _face and neck_ are going to be covered. Always. Gloves are no hindrance to me. Neither is a veil. "Be friendly or be PO'd as the case may be, but these two parts of my anatomy are _off limits!"_

_P.S.:_ Sometimes, a hive is "Hot!!" At that time you must quickly(!) withdraw, _suit up,_ and go back to see what's going on ... because uncharacteristically defensive behavior, which is always a non-zero possibility, is also a strong _symptom_ that demands immediate investigation ... investigation which must not be further delayed by what the bees are doing.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

Sorry, I don't understand this attitude. 

I dont wear a veil but I view that as my personal choice. I don't find being stung in the face or otherwise to be a big deal, nor am I stung often. I've taken twelve stings so far this year, four of them in the face. None of them where painful enough to make me wish I had a veil.

But, just because I don't use a veil doesn't mean that I go around telling people not use one. I tell them that its a choice, not an absolute. Just because I don't use one now doesn't even mean that I won't in the future. It all depends on what kind of person you are and your style of beekeeping, and the temperament of your bees.

But it seems like the people who do always use a veil are very defensive about it. Its like you feel like you have something to prove and have some kind of mild hostility/ distain for people who don't use veils. You hint that we are somehow crazy or foolish, now this, the idea that we are somehow actually hurting beekeeping....I just don't get it. 

Its not like not wearing your seatbelt or motorcycle hemet, unless you are allergic beestings are not a deadly threat, heck, even if you are allergic there is a fast acting, highly effective easily used treatment. We are just talking about pain here. If you don't like it, fine, I won't call you a chicken, just don't call me crazy.



> I think a veil should always be used, if one gets stung in the eye - sight could be lost.


Prove it. I did a search on beestings and blindness and could find almost nothing on the subject.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I entered into this hobby with a great fear of bees. I don't like getting stung and really it was the thought not the pain that I was afraid of. I think now it is better to portray the honeybee as a docile insect rather than one that is out to get you. Because of the experience with my bees I have opened up hives with no protection showing other people that are deathly afraid of bees that they are not the evil insects that they have been portrayed as. I tell each and every person that we should not do this but I can assure you that their fear is diminished by what they experience. So am I crazy? Maybe, but I don't feel that a beekeeper who feels comfortable with his bees is crazy if they don't suit up for every visit. Maybe in the future my views will change with a bad experience but for now...


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## rmcpb (Aug 15, 2012)

Bit of a storm in a tea cup here. If you don't wear a veil for any reason then its up to you. I choose to wear one but, unless the hive is really savage I don't worry about the spacesuit and gloves.

Horses for courses.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I hear what Aerindel is saying, and I respect that. But the more I learn about bee allergies, and people who have been keeping bees for years who suddenly get a dangerous reaction, the more inclined I am to agree with the OP.

The fact is that bees can kill you. Sure, it's not that common, but they can certainly do you some damage. If you understand that, and get to 'know' your bees well enough, you can certainly get to a point where you can pretty safely manage them without protective gear. 

But I don't think it's wise to do demos for people who know nothing about them without making all that clear. Seems wiser to set an example of safety first. You would with power tools.

Remember Timothy Treadwell, who used to hang out with wild bears? He was a great activist. He used to talk about how misunderstood they were, and how people shouldn't fear them - but in the end, the bears killed him and his girlfriend. His heart was in the right place, but getting killed by the bears really hurt his case for the bears.

The same could be said for our case - as beekeepers. If you go around telling everyone how harmless the bees are, people are going to take it pretty hard when their kid or their dog gets stung so bad they end up in the hospital.

I think there's a happy medium of respect that should be taught first. Bees are not "harmless".

Adam


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## taydeko (Jan 3, 2012)

Aerindel said:


> even if you are allergic there is a fast acting, highly effective easily used treatment.


I am allergic to bee stings. The pain of the sting is nothing. The treatment is short lived and still requires a visit to the hospital. On Epi-Pens they say to call 911 immediately after administering it. Once the epinephrin is used up the allergic symptoms return. After a few trips to the emergency room and feeling like I can't breath, swelling throat and face, itching all over, passing out and having all sorts of other unpleasant reactions, I would rather just wear a good veil. The Epi-Pens are expensive, and so are the lab tests, the IVs, the steroid shots, the benidryl and the steroid pills you have to take for three days afterward. My insurance was billed for over $5000.00 for one ER visit. Being really allergic is no picnic, and is extremely unpleasant, physically and financially, not to speak of life threatening. I also react negatively to Epinephrin, so that isn't so wonderful either. An allergic reaction can start at any time for anyone.

I recommend always wearing a veil.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

When I am by myself I wear shorts and a t-shirt. When I am teaching or working for the State I wear short sleves and a veil. I have been in some really defensive hives in the Islands and I do not wear gloves. I could give better examples but there are cases pending.
Bee bearding is not quite as simple as you might imagine. First the only audience should be beekeepers that are not waiting for a disaster. Most importantly. You need to take about 12 of your strongest hives. Move them about a mile every day at the peak flying time for a week before the event. This will eliminate most of the old forager bees and bees that are likely to sting, leaving nurse bees that only want to be near the queen hanging on your chin.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> When and what protective clothing you wear is entirely up to you, however when you are demonstrating beekeeping to the public please portray a hobby/profession that might appeal to others so that beekeeping doesn't continue to be a dying art.


Beekeeping is a dying art? What makes you think so?

What was the set up? Was this demo out in the open or in a screened cage?


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## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

for me I can't see thru a veil and when its 95 plus wearing a bee suit is a heart attack ready to happen. there is no place on my body I haven't been stung. and even in the eye ball 2 yrs ago a first for me. not blind yet. I don't own a bee suit or veil. if one needs one use it. the bees can smell your fear on you and will sting you. I don't think not wearing one proves any thing to any one its just a matter of choice. I teach new beekeepers and tell them if you fell uncomfortable without one wear it.
Don


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

I always wear a veil and most likely will always wear a veil. I also wear gloves. I also alway wear eye protection when working most power tools. At times I attempt to go without the gloves but always appear to take a few stings. I am not into pain for the joy of pain, so I end up going back to wearing gloves. I also use smoke when not specificly looking for the queen.

Bees are not pets. Beekkeeping should also not be an excuse to experience pain. If I can use smoke, veil, and gloves to get into a good relationship with my bees I think I have been sucessful as a beekeeper.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> I am allergic to bee stings. The pain of the sting is nothing. The treatment is short lived and still requires a visit to the hospital. On Epi-Pens they say to call 911 immediately after administering it.


Oh I know its no joke. I am an EMT and work on an ambulance. When people use epi I am the one the shows up with the second (and third) dose. I didn't mean to imply that its not something to be avoided and if you know you are allergic by all means wear a spacesuit. Heck, wear a spacesuit even if you aren't allergic if you want to, I don't care. What I mean is that unlike the consequences of not wearing other protective gear like seatbelts, helmets, life jackets, SCBA's etc there actually is something you can do to alleviate the the effects. There are no epipens that put your skull back together when you get ejected from a car and yet tens of thousands of people die every year from not wearing a seatbelt, those are the people that I call crazy. Not wearing a veil is nothing compared to not wearing a seatbelt.



> Bees are not pets


They are if thats how you treat them. Just like some people have dogs that are not pets and spiders that are, it all how you view them. It doesn't change the animal at all but your relationship with them will dictate your actions.



> If I can use smoke, veil, and gloves to get into a good relationship with my bees I think I have been sucessful as a beekeeper.


So you are, and if I can not use smoke, a veil or gloves and still be in a good relationship with my bees I think that should also be viewed as success. There is more than one way to do just about anything. When someone starts saying there is only one way to do anything, not just for them but for everybody I start getting nervous.

Just imagine if I made a post saying that no one should wear veils during demo's because it makes people think that bees are dangerous and that you can't be a bee keeper without loads of equipment. It would be just as false as saying that not wearing a veil means you have to be crazy to keep bees.

If you really want to put on a good bee demo make it clear that there are many different ways to keep bees and many different types of hives and equipment and go on to explain the way that *you* do it while letting the audience know that its not the only way it can be done. Presenting a living hobby with ability to pick and choose your management style will be more appealing than presenting any one method as gospel.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I live, work, and keep honey bees, here in Tucson, Arizona. Like fat/beeman I usually wear shorts and a T-shirt, with tennis shoes. It is usually extremely hot here, most days near or over 100F. I have a veil standing by, I do not often put one on - at least, not since I switched out all my hives from AHB to EHB, almost a decade ago. I am a bit older, now, than I was when I first started keeping bees 55 vs 10. I now raise many queens, sometimes year-'round. It would be extremely more difficult, if not impossible, for me to do what I need to do to raise queens if I had to wear a veil. With a veil I cannot see eggs or young larvae in cells. A veil makes it very difficult to locate a queen, even if she is marked. How would I ever locate a virgin?

Like I said, I keep a veil handy. There may be an occasion when I might need one - fortunately those times have been rare in the past decade. I regularly get stung in and around my nose and ears. It hurts, I don't like it, but I usually need to see eggs and young larvae, to quickly locate virgins and laying queens - in order to mark them. If I were wearing a veil, I wouldn't be able to do those tasks.

Besides keeping bees, riding motorcycles, driving cars, mountain climbing, etc. - there is one thing we humans do that most certainly leads to death, more certainly than any other thing we do - we *live*. It is almost certainly fatal.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Joesph, you're right!
The most dangerous thing a person can do is be born.
Nearly 100% of those who are born later die.

I'd say all of them do but I am sure there are some on the forum who would contest this, as I know scientific study proving it is so and can refer them to no research paper.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

PPE is PPE. Safety is NOT A CHOICE. I am a firefighter and don't fight fire in a T-shirt - why would I work bees with no PPE? Same difference.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Paul McCarty said:


> PPE is PPE. Safety is NOT A CHOICE. I am a firefighter and don't fight fire in a T-shirt - why would I work bees with no PPE? Same difference.


You're absolutely right.
If I don't wear a veil, I endanger my station mates...people will die if I get stung...
And if firefighters respond to a fire in t-shirts, there's a 3% chance they'll have an allergic reaction, and an even smaller chance of it causing actual harm.
With prompt treatment it almost never will result in permanent damage.

You're right...it's exactly the same difference.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Safety may not be a "choice". Especially when fighting fires, likely because the characteristics of fire (a chemical reaction) is "always" the same.

The interaction between beekeeper and honey bees is NOT "always" the same. Choices of PPE can, in beekeeping, more easily be varied due to the varying nature of the threat.

Of course I wouldn't fight fire in a T-shirt . Fire's danger is usually, if not always, the same. 

Honey bees are not, at all, like fire. They are living creatures and extremely diverse in how they interact with their environment. Fire, is not a living creature (though it sometimes seem like it might be), it always interacts with its environment in exactly the same way. Give it ample fuel, heat, and oxygen and it will do the same thing every time. If that were true of honey bees, and they were all like the AHB colonies I kept for about a decade -- I might even consider leaving beekeeping. Fortunately not all honey bees are the same 'threat level' as fire, is. I do, however, keep various beekeeping PPE available, and use them when it seems appropriate. I do not completely shun beekeeping PPE. Some beekeeping PPE can be essential, when the situation warrants it. Some, used excessively, can cause other issues like dehydration and heat illnesses.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Deleted duplicate post


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

​


Aerindel said:


> Prove it. I did a search on beestings and blindness and could find almost nothing on the subject.


www.nature.com/eye/journal/v19/n9/full/6701720a.html

A case of an eye sting and the results


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Safety is safety, especially when dealing with unpredictable bees. You guys do what you want.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

The demonstration took place in a screened in room. No threat to the general public.

I called it a dying art. I've always got the impression that commercial beekeepers are growing old and very few are taking up the profession. It does seem like backyard beekeeping of just a few hives is becoming more and more popular. Maybe an effort to recruit is not that important, but that's a different topic.

This was never meant to be an argument about whether it's right or wrong to wear a veil. Do what you are comfortable with while working bees.
In a demo though, I think it's important to display a level of safety most people are comfortable with.

@Aerindel 
I agree that a good demo should not preach one "gospel" but options. And this demo did show a veil at the beginning then simply stated "I'm not going to be using it".
You were offended by the word crazy, let me elaborate...
For an average person a sting consists of an instant sharp pain followed by localized swelling, and a warm itchy feeling. If you are standing up there as a model beekeeper saying "I don't need a veil, it's not a big deal for me to get stung in the face" you give the impression you are either crazy or cut from a special cloth, immune to stings, allowing you to be a beekeeper.

Sure you can explain you have built up a tolerance, then you should also explain how fortunate you are you didn't develop an allergy. You could explain you have developed an understanding of the bees and how gentle they are, but I guarantee if you surveyed your audience afterward, they'd all say you were crazy.

So put on a stupid hat with a screen. Make your audience feel comfortable, and make it look like something they could see themselves doing some day.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Joe, All we can do is demonstrate safe practices, we can and should. I don't agree that anyone is making any conclusion about beekeepers or their mental state though. I am concerned about the full range of conclusions that can be made from a demonstration. What about the young child that reaches the conclusion they can just run up and pop the top of a hive no problem? This list is actually endless.
For an audience with zero experience. Beekeeping should always be demonstrated as if you are dealing with the worst hive you have ever dealt with. Because it is very possible that someone in that crowed will one day be doing just that. and if they follow your example. they will be as safe as possible.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

Masochist is a strong word and when I use it in conjunction with crazy that too seems to speak of someone's mental state. I apologize, I didn't intend to literally call anyone crazy (or a masochist) for not wearing a veil.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> PPE is PPE. Safety is NOT A CHOICE. I am a firefighter and don't fight fire in a T-shirt - why would I work bees with no PPE? Same difference.



Actually, there is a difference I'm am also a structural firefighter and EMT. I love my turnouts and SCBA but I haven't met a fire yet that I can walk into with a T shirt and shorts. A bee hive is not an IDLH zone. Fire can seem to be alive but its really an indiscriminate force, it doesn't have to feel threatened or disturbed to go after you.

I think its a lot more analogous to the way the ER doctors and nurses rarely wear gloves. 

Me, I always wear gloves, I know that I usually have a few open cuts on my hands and I am an not nearly as confident working with infectious diseases as people who work in a hospital. Sure, the chances of getting a blood born pathogen are very low but I don't mind gloves and I like the protection, even if its mostly psychological. But when I take someone in to the ER and watch the doctor or nurse put in an IV without wearing gloves I just assume that its because that is how that person is best able to do it. If they know they aren't going to blow the vein and got blood all over themselves then fine, they don't have to wear gloves, I myself don't have the same level of confidence with IV needles that I do with bees.




> http://www.nature.com/eye/journal/v19/n9/full/6701720a.html


I would like to read the link but its not working for me. I'll try again later.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

So it's safer to wear a tee shirt around unpredictable or pissed off bees because they aren't fire? From a workplace safety POV, there's no ground to stand on. PPE is PPE. we get stung enough, why risk more, or a sting that can cause real problems because of machismo? Just becasue ER Doc's and Nurses get complacent doesn't mean it's right.


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## frostygoat (Jun 3, 2008)

Aerindel said:


> Prove it.


The blindness claim is overblown, however eye stings don't sound fun. 

From British Journal of Ophthalmology, 1977, 61, 662-664

"ANTERIOR SEGMENT
The cornea. The most serious reaction of the anterior segment has been encountered in cases in which the
sting entered the cornea. The victim suffers much pain and photophobia associated with clouding and swelling of the cornea itself. Iritis, hypopyon, and mixed conjunctival and ciliary injection develop. Typically, in wasp stings bullous keratitis has been known to persist for many months. Characteristically, a striate keratitis and pathognomonically, a fine network of ridges in the corneal epithelium appear surrounding the retained sting. During the height of the reaction the cornea may become heavily infiltrated at the site of the sting. Histologically, necrosis of cells and a large collection of leucocytes are to be found in the immediate neighbourhood of the sting or at the place of inoculation of the venom. Thereafter the inflammatory reaction gradually subsides. However, the area of the cornea surrounding the sting
commonly remains permanently clouded and vascularised. Gradual complete clearing and recovery of normal vision are to be expected (Khachaturova, 1960) even though the sting remains in the cornea. Damage to the eye, specifically to the cornea,
results in an irregularity of the corneal surface which may require an astigmatic correction to improve vision, as is seen in our case. The iris. The iris shows great vasodilatation, with several haemorrhages and leucocytic infiltration,
but no necrosis. The lens. The lens has been known to develop small grey opacities on the anterior surface, even
when not mechanically injured by the sting. Anterior polar cataract may appear. Some degeneration of the epithelium of the lens capsule has been reported, with accumulation of fluid between the capsule and the lens substance, followed by proliferation of the intact epithelium (Huwald, 1904)."


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> a sting that can cause real problems because of machismo?


See, thats another example of pro veil people completely not understanding the point. There is no machismo, there is no one watching. Heck, when I go inter tubbing with friends I am the only one to wear a life jacket because I think water is dangerous and I'm not a good swimmer.



> So it's safer to wear a tee shirt around unpredictable or pissed off bees because they aren't fire?


My bees are neither. If they where, I would where a freaking spacesuit or not bother with them at all.

I'll try this again..... I almost never get stung. I've bee hit twelve times this whole year. Half of those occurred during a single incident when I opened a queenless hive at the wrong time of day. If I thought I was likely to be stung during any given inspection I would wear a veil. Its not about being macho, its about playing the odds. The odds are vastly in my favor that I won't get stung. I would rather take the change of receiving a small, temporarily painful sting on an average of once a week than deal with a veil.

But since we are talking about physiologically here how about this theory? Adamant pro veiler's secretly feel ashamed that they are afraid of being stung. As long as everyone wears a veil they can just tell themselves that they are just following the standard practice, but any time they see someone without a veil they get a little squirming sensation in their gut and think, "man, I wish I could do that if I was a real man"

*Of course I don't actually believe that* but it feels pretty insulting doesn't it? Like I said earlier, don't call me crazy and I wont call you chicken.

ugh, I'm done here, I can't think of anyway to make my point clearer. Some people understood what I was saying at least. Thanks for the people who actually found some articles on bee stings to eyes. Looks like its not fun but both of those links where about patients who made full recoveries and it must be a pretty rare occurrence judging by scarcity of articles. I may consider wearing goggles in the future though.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I'll tell you what - come and work my feral bees with no veil. I will stand back and watch.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

In all the history of humans interacting with stinging insects, it is difficult to locate information on more than just a very few instances where actual eyes were damaged or blinded directly or due to complications arising from stings from stinging insects.

However, there are so many more things in our normal living/working environments that could possibly cause injury to our eyes, if we truly gave each of them the attention they seem to deserve (considering how valuable our sight is), we'd likely have less time for many other of our normal activities.

I do understand and respect Joes_Bees' and Paul McCarty's POV, but have chosen my own path. My age, history and experience with honey bees, poor eyesight, and sensitivity to our local environmental extremes have colored my decisions. I wouldn't really expect anyone else to completely understand my reasonings, or use my techniques, the same way I do. After all, we are each unique individuals.

I hope we can each enjoy beekeeping in our own ways, and without any serious injuries. I like to think that during my first forty-five years of beekeeping it hasn't been only luck that I haven't been killed or blinded due to my reluctance to routinely use beekeeping PPE, to the hilt.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Once again, everything comes down to locality. What works in the great White North may not be the safest thing to do in the Desert Southwest. People can work their bees naked for all I care, but there's always the chance when you pop open that lid, at least where I live, that you will be met with a cloud of really angry bees and you may not get a chance to put on the veil that is sitting on the ground or in the bucket next to you. Sort of like those motorcyclists you see with the helmet on their sissy bar, not on their head. Most of my bees are pretty tolerable, but it IS the desert and things change quick. You have to be ready. PPE is not something to be taken lightly.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Wether to use a veil or not is just choice, for me the nuisance of wearing one is more than the odd sting, but I think certainly beginners should wear one or it's only a matter of time till they get a good sting in the face of confidence denting proportions.

Check this video though, she is knowledgeable and experienced, demonstrates some interesting European beekeeping techniques, and I love her safety boots!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gKTvp1lupHY


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

jbeshearse said:


> ​
> www.nature.com/eye/journal/v19/n9/full/6701720a.html
> 
> A case of an eye sting and the results


Sounds like a game of scissors - stone - paper.

"On average, a human eye takes between 300 and 400 milliseconds to complete a single blink. That's roughly between three-tenths and four-tenths of a second.

Read more: How Fast Is a Blink of an Eye? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5199669_fast-blink-eye_.html#ixzz25dID3qhb"

I don't have that good medical and comp insurance that some of you veiless-wearers do, apparently. If you're so fast - why let them sting you anywhere, especially the face? Wearing protective equipment during the Georgia summer is brutal, but I'd rather take the risk of getting to work and meeting a wrong-way driver on the freeway.

We're most all willing to take the risk, until it affects us personally. Hopefully we won't meet by accident on that country 2-lane road because you couldn't really tell were the center line was.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Yeah, this has turned into a discussion of whether or not you need to wear a veil, but the OP is about how you introduce working bees to newcomers. And if you don't wear any protection, some people feel too afraid to enter into it as they are not confident that they can handle the fear like "the bee whisperer" does. The bar is set by the demonstrator, who - by example - is suggesting that a proficient beekeeper will not use protective gear. They might intend to show bees as gentle, but could just end up making a lot of people even less likely to get into it. Who wants to enter into something they can't imagine being good at? 

So the point is what the effect of no veil can have on an uninitiated onlooker - not whether or not an experienced beekeeper needs to always wear a veil.

In my opinion, once you're experienced enough, you know when you need one and when you don't. Each to his or her own at that point. 

Adam


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

Funny how you claim there is no machismo when your underlying argument is:


Aerindel said:


> Like I said earlier, don't call me crazy and I wont call you chicken.


(I don't think the best defense is to play offensively here)

I think Paul McCarty statement about working feral bees is unwarranted since you have clearly stated that your calm bees, pain tolerance, and management allows you to keep bees without a veil.

Anyways I don't think I ever implied to judge what you do in your own apiary. Just what you do when you demo for the public.
You have a relationship with bees that took many stings, patience, and learning to develop allowing you to work without a veil with minimal risk. By the sound of it, the consequence you suffer is not like the rest of us (see google images "bee sting eye")
I hope the people watching your demo understand all that.

In the mean time, if I'm given the opportunity to demo, I will teach them more interesting things and answer questions with the time I saved by skipping the disclaimer and depicting an average beekeeping experience.

So if the point of your demo is to be an attraction, don't wear a veil. Maybe people will get the impression that bees are gentle and kind. I'd rather they have the proper respect and stay away from a hive unless they know what they're doing.


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## DamSutt1986 (May 26, 2012)

I agree that demos should be done using proper safety equipment. Showing that you can pick up a swarm with no gloves is a great thing, but being appearing crazy and stupid (covering yourself in bees) doesn't prove anything to me. Show the audience that beekeeping is a fun, relaxing hobby, especially while using precautionary safety gear to protect your vital areas. 

But, that's the nature of the beast. People put their heads in alligator mouths, wrestle with lions, and use table saws without the guards for demonstrations. I understand that danger 'sells'.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*I've participated in a few of these veil/no-veil threads, this one is my favorite, lots of good ideas and information. Thank you Joes_bees for beginning it.

*Why let them sting me anywhere. Because, believe it or not, the interference of the veil is more bother than a dozen or so stings to the nostrils, ears, face, head, and neck areas. They really only cause a bit of momentary discomfort. While the veil prevents me from successfully performing the beekeeping tasks that are essential to my current beekeeping objectives.

If I were keeping bees that were so sensitive that they'd make it impossible for me to work without a veil, I'd change those genetics, now. Okay, been there, done that. About a decade ago, I was keeping those kinds of bees, and I had to wear a veil, or I wouldn't have been able to see anything - because so many bees were flying in my face and stinging me there. This was my reality about a dozen years ago. Despite an absorbent head band, I was also sweating so much, it was dripping into my eyeglasses and I couldn't see through the sweat. On top of that it was so hot I couldn't work more than five minutes at a time, before I'd need to retreat, drink some water and cool down. I was lucky I didn't succumb to a heat induced malady. Recently, here in our area, college students have died because they weren't prepared for the reality of this environment. Sadly that happens more frequently than it should.

I finally decided that I was done working with overly defensive honey bees (possibly AHB). I put together a plan to requeen all my hives (at that time I had about a dozen). It was successful and though I keep a veil handy and use it periodically, the bees I keep now are extremely manageable, though not docile in the least. They can and do sting, but show limited responsiveness to alarm pheromone, and since my requeening efforts, and culling any queen whose hive displays any behavior I don't like, only really sting during queenlessness, dearth, robbing, or while its raining (especially with combinations of these).
--------------------------
Concerning public, "demo's". Most of my customers visit our apiary to pick up their queens and/or bees. Some wear veils while doing so. Most do not, they wear what I wear, street clothes. Once in awhile someone gets stung - I have never had a customer stung more than once per visit. I do not promise that my bees are sting-free, and even offer my own veil if they don't have theirs with them. So, PPE is always available and no one is encouraged to enter my apiary without whatever PPE they are comfortable with. You could say that I, demo working without PPE, though when I get stung the customer sees that too. I've also visited some customers to help them introduce queens. That customer always comments on how smoothly and calmly I work his bees (they did seem to be somewhat AHB), and I did use a veil draped over my head and shoulders. I have about fifty colonies on my acre, and just recently one of my neighbors (while asking for some comb honey), remarked how he would never have known that my bees were their, if another neighbor, who already knew, hadn't told him.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

taydeko said:


> I am allergic to bee stings. The pain of the sting is nothing. The treatment is short lived and still requires a visit to the hospital. On Epi-Pens they say to call 911 immediately after administering it. Once the epinephrin is used up the allergic symptoms return. After a few trips to the emergency room and feeling like I can't breath, swelling throat and face, itching all over, passing out and having all sorts of other unpleasant reactions, I would rather just wear a good veil. The Epi-Pens are expensive, and so are the lab tests, the IVs, the steroid shots, the benidryl and the steroid pills you have to take for three days afterward. My insurance was billed for over $5000.00 for one ER visit. Being really allergic is no picnic, and is extremely unpleasant, physically and financially, not to speak of life threatening. I also react negatively to Epinephrin, so that isn't so wonderful either. An allergic reaction can start at any time for anyone.
> 
> I recommend always wearing a veil.


 You are allergic to bee stings and keep bees :scratch:


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Plenty of people are allegic to pollen and have gardens. so what's so hard to believe?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I believe one of the original authors of ABC and XYZ's of Bee Culture, was initially allergic to bee stings.

He describes how he developed a technique to desensitize himself.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

Out here in Oregon bees are becoming the new backyard chickens. Local bee club has 80 members, almost half of whom have had bees for one or two years, or are getting them next year. It's almost getting to the point where saturation of available nectar sources will be a concern.

Commercial beekeeping may be a declining art to some extent. I would attribute that to increased barriers to entry, following the same economies of scale as commercial farming. Used to be a beekeeper could make a fair profit supplying his or her town with honey. Now honey sells for $1.70 a pound to bulk packers and to really make a living with bees you need several hundred to thousands of hives moving around the country to pollination contracts. Not so easy to transition from hobbyist to professional beekeeper these days, though in Oregon at least some folks are doing it.


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## NowThen (Nov 26, 2008)

Joes Bees,

Perhaps you should look at this as a great opportunity. Join the Minnesota Hobby Beekeepers Association (mnbeekeepers.com) and volunteer to do bee demos at the fair next year. You'll be able to show potential bee keepers your methods (and the protection that you use) while working a hive.

I understand your concerns over showing folks that beekeeping can be done without a veil or gloves, but anybody considering getting into bees is going to know that bees sting. Bee stings hurt. A choice will be made and I'll bet that most folks will opt for starting with the most protection possible - regardless of what that guy was wearing in the bee booth at the fair.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

NowThen said:


> A choice will be made and I'll bet that most folks will opt for starting with the most protection possible - regardless of what that guy was wearing in the bee booth at the fair.


Reality ...
Has the most weight in a discussion in my book. It is a personal choice usually made at the time you work bees.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I think some folks perceive others are not discerning enough to know when to wear a veil and when one can safely go without it.

I have a new beek I am mentoring. While I usually work the hives sans veil, in shorts and t shirt, she has been veiled and gloved w/ a long sleeved shirt. I encourage her to continue doing so until she is comfortable without them, if that ever happens.
When i know a hive has become queenless for a little while, or if a thunder storm is imminent, he see's me put on the veil and I explain why.

A veil is not a permanent solution to a hive that consistently emits a "cloud of angry bees".
But it is a wise temporary one.
IMO, a permanent solution involves my thumb and the side of the brood chamber, followed by a couple of brood cycles with a new queen.

Unless the benefit of aggressive bees outweighs the inconvenience of working bees with an unpleasant disposition, which it very well may. I love feral bees.
Mine just aren't very aggressive.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

Thanks NowThen, I'm hoping to take a more active role in the twin cities beekeeping scene. I had a conflict with Tues nights all summer that just recently ended so I will be able to make it to the meeting on the 11th. Though I'm having trouble figuring out where that meeting will be located from the site. I'll try contacting them.


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## NowThen (Nov 26, 2008)

Joes Bees,

It is usually in Borlaug Hall. I should be receiving the newsletter in the next day or so. If it's not scheduled in Borlaug, I'll let you know.


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## Jon F (Jun 7, 2011)

Aerindel said:


> Sorry, I don't understand this attitude.
> 
> I dont wear a veil but I view that as my personal choice. I don't find being stung in the face or otherwise to be a big deal, nor am I stung often. I've taken twelve stings so far this year, four of them in the face. None of them where painful enough to make me wish I had a veil.
> 
> ...


Well for me my eye would probly explode. When I get stung, it throbs, it aches, and it swells!! A year ago i was stung on the wrist while harvesting honey, and my whole hand swelled, and my fingers swelled to the point where i could not move them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't think there are any lymph nodes in the human eyeball, so, no swelling. I also believe that the human eye recovers from injury faster than almost any other part of the body. For what that is worth.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I don't feel the pain much anymore, but I itch for days and bruise badly.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I look like a big billed duck! Lips are swoll so far out that my wife screamed when she saw me... then she broke down laughing. I nearly always wear a veil, but today... being in a hurry... guess I forgot, well they reminded me. Hope this goes down before anybody else sees me.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Like I said before, 25 years of managing risk has convinced me that not wearing PPE when there is a choice is foolhardy. But each to their own I guess. Sort of like the picture every beekeeper seems to have holding a frame of bees with no veil.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

Yeah, I don't have that big of an argument against those. It's the demonstrations targeted at the general public without a veil that bother me.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And what does it say to the Public watching a demonstration if the beekeeper is dressed to the hilt like a hazmat cleanup crew member?


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Well, I am not much into demonstrations, so I really can't answer that. I mostly deal with the mean bees nobody wants - so my views are skewed in that regard.


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## Nantom670 (Jul 29, 2011)

Let's face it, even the OP was one persons viewpoint and as has been recorded, there are others who agree and those who disagree. No one knows what the audience thought about it one way or the other. But as far as thinking it will hinder someone from getting into beekeeping, that too will not be settled here either. I look at it like bull riding, whether those guys wear a helmet or not is not going to make me want to ride a bull.:lookout:


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

Well sqkcrk, when having a discussion it's nice to be consistent, I'm going to assume you meant to say veil instead of referencing a "hazmat cleanup crew"

I think it says you are dealing with 10s of 1000s of insects programmed to defend their home by stinging sensitive areas such as those found on your face which would cause the average person's eye to swell shut for 24+ hours.

It says you are sensible and respectful of this aspect of beekeeping and you are displaying a simple, effective, and common way beekeepers deal with this risk.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No Joes, I wrote "hazmat cleanup crew MEMBER". And I asked a question, consistant w/ what I often do. So, where is the inconsistency?

What does it say to the Public watching someone wearing no protective gear whiler working bees and not getting stung?


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

Hollywood has done a great disservice to honeybees by generating unnecessary fear. Beekeepers demonstrating that a veil is unnecessary also do a disservice to the honeybee by dissolving a reputation they deserve that keeps hooligans away from their home. 

Imagine a booth promoting the sport of water skiing. There is only one live demonstration and it is of a guy barefoot skiing.

Now imagine you have been considering taking up water skiing but have heard it is dangerous. You clearly have an expert standing in front of you right now. What question would you ask to dissolve your fears and would you speak up over the crowd to ask?

Now imagine you know almost nothing about water skiing. You walk by the booth but do not stop. Your first live impression of water skiing is a guy being pulled 55+ miles per hour behind a boat on his bare feet.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Let's stick to beekeeping. I have demonstrated the handling of bees in a number of situations. One being in front of an Elementery School group at their School which had a bee tree on the edge of the Parking Lot. a swarm had lit on a conifer of some sort in the School Yard. A friend of mine, in our Colonial garb, being employees of nearby Colonial Williamsburg, went to the school and collected the swarm into a modern conventional beehive. The Teachers wanted us to show the children what the queen looked like and to tell them about the bees.

None of them were wearing protective clothing and neither were we. Of course people are fearful of bees. Some of that is a healthy fear. Much of it is imprinted.

Now, I don't think anyone uncomfortable doing so should do what I have done, but telling people that they have to do demonstrations one way or another? I don't go along w/ that either.

I think beekeeping demonstrations w/out protective gear shows people what can be done w/ bees and that getting stung is nothing to FEAR. Besides, what's a sting or two? I demonstrate getting stung too. I also talk to the audience about the defensive nature of bees and how to be around them in a safe and calm manner.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Joes_bees said:


> Your first live impression of water skiing is a guy being pulled 55+ miles per hour behind a boat on his bare feet.


So what is the problem?


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## pbuhler (May 31, 2009)

Interesting discussion. I've been teaching beekeeping to middle school students, and I start out cautiously with an empty hive and all the internals without bees. After a taste of some honey from a comb, they are ready to visit a living hive. We review the precautions needed (some students have allergic reactions to stings) and take precautions accordingly, including suits and epi-pens at the ready . I use hives with generally gentle bees, smoke, and, if a hive appears feisty, we close it and visit another time. 
To keep this short, I've been to many seminars where the hives are opened without veils, and I've worked with professionals who work with smoke only and have seen only a few stings on these occasions.

I have to say that when my class joins me at the hive and we open it with smoke alone, and pull frames of working bees and inspect them close up, there is an experience gained that transcends explanation. I could talk about how bees can be gentle for a long time without impact; experiencing it first hand, says it all.

I'm not reckless. So far I've taken over 100 students into hives, and the only one stung has been me, when I squeezed a bee between the box and my arm - an opportunity to teach.

As an aside, when I'm in a hurry, or have some important event where a sting on the face would be problematic, I suit up.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

pbuhler said:


> ...We review the precautions needed (some students have allergic reactions to stings) and take precautions accordingly, including suits and epi-pens at the ready ....


To me, there is a world of difference in how an inspection without a veil is framed. If it is framed with a review of precautions, and "suits and epi-pens at the ready", that's a whole different ballgame.

The bottom line for me is teaching a level of respect to beginners. It shouldn't be fear, but an educated level of respect for the bees, for their wild nature, and for their ability to cause a person real harm if they are not properly respected.

Adam


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

You have to remember, these are creatures that can kill a horse when riled up. Even domestic varieties are not totally tame. Sort of like those people who keep pet wolf hybrids.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

We manage bees in two very urban locations...one rather private (the 5th floor roof of the Intercontinental Hotel in Boston), one rather public (in the Fenway Victory Garden...half way between home plate of Fenway park and Boston Symphony Hall....7 acres and 500 plots of community gardening in the only Victory Garden still in constant operation). The group that runs the garden has given us the plot specifically as a teaching apiary.

We do "open hives" (like an artist open studios) on most Sundays after our Sunday market at the Fenway hives....6 hives in one yard, and 4 in another. I tell people who show up that they are outside and might get stung by an insect anyways, but their chances of being stung if they are around an open hive is much, much higher....if they don't wish to get stung, they should not be there. If my audience isn't wearing protective gear, I feel that I should be handling them as if I'm not wearing gear...so I don't wear gear. I always light a smoker, and I always use it. If a hive seems moody, I put it right back together. This yard is also less than a mile from several of the best hospitals in Boston.

If you are going to keep bees, you are going to get stung. I don't see the point of highlighting this as a negative, or pretending that if you are careful you won't get stung. Beekeeping is a lot more enjoyable when a few stings can be tolerated....you will handle the bees better if you really don't want them to fly up in your face when you are pulling a frame....if you don't believe me I'll give you a test and prove it to you 

But, our primary responsibility with these hives is to make sure they don't swarm (knowing that any swarm in the area may be pinned on us because our bees are visible)....we don't manage them as intensely as we might for maximum honey production....when in doubt, we split these hives, and they tend to be no more than 2-4 deeps.

At our conference, most people don't wear veils (many don't wear shoes). One year, Mike Palmer was the only one to get stung (he was steadying himself for a photo and leaned his hand on an upper entrance with bees bearding). I think it's most important for people to learn that in the vast majority of cases, the damage is infinitesimal when compared to anything else that would produce that much pain. This is one of the most interesting aspect of beekeeping (or beekeepers)....a certain kind of person with a certain kind of fear simply wouldn't willingly open a box of bees (I know, I used to be this kind of person).

I don't take this lightly....Peter Sitzman was a childhood friend (I have a recording of his solo with the chorus). He died from a bee sting at 38 (he was highly allergic).
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E0DF133AF937A15754C0A9619C8B63
I've attended talks where supposedly reputable beekeepers have claimed that deadly allergies are never from honeybees, but always from wasps and hornets....it's infuriating.

When writing a book for beginner beekeepers, we knew we were writing for EVERYONE. The only sane thing we could say as a blanket recommendation is before taking up beekeeping, get an allergy test. I've never had an allergy test for bee stings, and most beekeepers I know have not.

We always tell new beekeepers (and observers) to wear as much protective equipment as makes them feel safe. We always have protective equipment on hand...that (and a smoker) is what makes me feel safe. A veil won't prevent others from being stung...a smoker many, many times will. We used to bring mosquito nets...but no one ever used them, so we stopped bringing them.

All this said, I know the temperament of our bees. We got a bunch of bees from Don Fatbeeman in 2009, have culled these heavily, mixed with the local feral and commercial populations as well as a few other additions since. Don's bees have the best temperament in the industry...we were there making up our nucs in the rain, in the dark....Ramona was wearing flip flops.

So far, we have been able to retain this kind of temperament. Last time we were inspecting the hives at the hotel, the executive chef asked why we weren't getting stung...we explained that we had requeened their existing hives with our own stock (via virgins) over the last 2 months, and they now had different bees with a different temperament....he was thrilled at not getting stung...he noticed it on his own. 

I think when you are doing a demo, you should demonstrate what you actually do. I'd sooner open a hive in front of someone without a veil than drive them somewhere in my car....wearing a seatbelt.

There is a lot about most beekeeping demonstrations that I don't think gives the attendees an accurate picture of "beekeeping" (treatments and feeding specially)....but working workable bees without gloves or a veil hardly seems more risky than eating in a restaurant....certainly safer than driving a tractor.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> If it is framed with a review of precautions, and "suits and epi-pens at the ready", that's a whole different ballgame.


At least in the U.S. you need a prescription to buy an epi-pen. If you are not requiring your attendees obtain an epi-pen ahead of time, are you carrying a prescription (injectable) emergency medicine with the intent to use it on someone it isn't prescribed for?

If you think you need an epi-pen (evidence of allergies, working in a remote location) than by all means get one....but I think someone coming to a bee hive opening should be bringing their own prescription and over the counter medication if they think they need it. In an emergency? I'd administer an epi-pen if it was available and seemed appropriate...but I don't carry one in case someone else needs it.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Paul McCarty said:


> You have to remember, these are creatures that can kill a horse when riled up. Even domestic varieties are not totally tame. Sort of like those people who keep pet wolf hybrids.


How do you feel around people? Are people "safe animals to be around"?

deknow


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

deknow said:


> How do you feel around people? Are people "safe animals to be around"?
> 
> deknow


People are most definitely NOT in many cases.

I have no experience with your bees. I deal mostly in these cranky desert bees. I am sure yours are very nice.


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