# Protein Patty recipe



## beepro

"10 lbs fried egg"

You mean 10 lbs dry egg.
So what is the recipe to make a 10 lbs sub batch from this one?


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## JSL

2 lbs Brewers yeast 
2 lbs soy flour 
1 lbs fried egg
1 lbs irradiated pollen
1.6 Tablespoons lemon juice
1.6 Tablespoons of canola oil
4-5 lbs HFCS


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## Ian

beepro said:


> "10 lbs fried egg"
> 
> You mean 10 lbs dry egg.
> So what is the recipe to make a 10 lbs sub batch from this one?


Mobile auto correct


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## FlowerPlanter

Where do you purchase your ingredients?


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## Ian

I get mine in from BeeMaid. The dried egg comes in special order from a cracked plant out east, the irradiated pollen comes in special order from the China. I'll give you a cost break down tonight


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## beesohappy

Thank you Ian! 

It's obvious that you've done your homework. Anymore info like website links or company contacts would be very appreciated.


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## Barry

I thought sometime back there was concern about ingredients coming from China. Is this no longer an issue?


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## Ian

Barry said:


> I thought sometime back there was concern about ingredients coming from China. Is this no longer an issue?


Oh yes, my top concern. I'm assured all pathogens are eliminated through irradiation but unsure of the heavy metal content. Costs are half of local 

The bees take these patties regardless if there is pollen added or not. 

Largest reason I add pollen is because I subscribe to Jean-Marc's news letter


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## RAK

You could always trap canola pollen? Dont know if its worth the time and effort.


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## Ian

RAK said:


> You could always trap canola pollen? Dont know if its worth the time and effort.


On that list to do, we also have an irradiation facility nearby


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian, have you seen that study where nosema goes up a lot with patties feed bee pollen in them, can't remember where I read it at but i'm sure RS or somebody will chime in.


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## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ian, have you seen that study where nosema goes up a lot with patties feed bee pollen in them, can't remember where I read it at but i'm sure RS or somebody will chime in.


No I have not heard that and I am extremely interested in hearing more.
What was the jist Keith, reasoning behind? As opposed to fresh pollen foraged?


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## JSL

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ian, have you seen that study where nosema goes up a lot with patties feed bee pollen in them, can't remember where I read it at but i'm sure RS or somebody will chime in.


Keith is that the article that came out several years ago using "old" pollen and sub? If that is the article, I think it came out of Western Canada?


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## Barry

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0132014

Characterizing the Impact of Commercial Pollen Substitute Diets on the Level of Nosema spp. in Honey Bees (Apis mellifera L.)


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## JSL

Barry said:


> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0132014
> 
> Characterizing the Impact of Commercial Pollen Substitute Diets on the Level of Nosema spp. in Honey Bees (Apis mellifera L.)


Barry, that wasn't the one I was thinking of. It has been a little while since I read the paper you referenced, but I think the jist was that pollen was a little better, health-wise, for the bees than pollen subs when inoculating caged bees with nosema.


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## Ian

Barry said:


> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0132014
> 
> Characterizing the Impact of Commercial Pollen Substitute Diets on the Level of Nosema spp. in Honey Bees (Apis mellifera L.)


>>"The Nosema levels in sucrose-inoculated bees fed pollen was higher than in sucrose-inoculated bees not fed pollen "<<

I gather this is more so to do with simply activation of the nosema spores in the bees gut. Makes me rethink late season feeding of protein supplements to the bees. 
If Fumagillin actually worked against this new strain, Nosema Ceranae, feeding a late season high protein diet followed with a fumagillin treatment would be beneficial. BUT my trials find fumagillin ineffective against Ceranae... infact counter...

Something they should of added within the study was comparing mal nourished bees with properly nourished bees before testing. I bet I could predict that outcome.


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## Ian

beesohappy said:


> Thank you Ian!
> 
> It's obvious that you've done your homework. Anymore info like website links or company contacts would be very appreciated.


Using feedback from beesource (good and argumentative) and Randy Oliver (an asset in every beekeepers pocket), I scratched out something simple. Balance the profile, ensure there are proper fats Vits available and watch the cost. Don't get caught up in hype. I tested hype, hype does not work, leave hype on the shelf...


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## JSL

I like Ian's approach which keeps it simple. I posted a similar formulation on BS a year or two ago, and some of the guys said it was too simple. Diets really don't have to be complicated, and most aren't, but gimmicks sell...

Another similar diet that we have tested for "off the shelf" items that most can find at the grocery store is:
1 lbs yellow corn flour 
3 lbs soy flour 
1 lbs dried egg
1 lbs irradiated pollen (optional)
1.6 Tablespoons lemon juice
1.6 Tablespoons of corn oil (more can be added)
4-5 lbs HFCS or honey as Ian suggested


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> Something they should of added within the study was comparing mal nourished bees with properly nourished bees before testing. I bet I could predict that outcome.


Yep, that ones a given........ 

I think "IF" I remember correctly it was a conversation with Kirk Anderson Ian,don't hold me to it but I will be seeing him in two weeks I will ask.


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## JSL

The thing to remember is that the bulk ingredients such as the yeast, corn and soy are not balanced for vitamins and minerals. They provide some, but not enough, or in some cases too much, so that needs to be corrected. 

With the pollen, the best you can hope for is that it is somewhat nutritionally complete if it is not too old.


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## JSL

Ian said:


> >>
> Something they should of added within the study was comparing mal nourished bees with properly nourished bees before testing. I bet I could predict that outcome.


How would you identify such bees, would their ribs show? Seriously though, how would you quantify that for the study?


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## Ian

JSL said:


> How would you identify such bees, would their ribs show? Seriously though, how would you quantify that for the study?


Lol, just like some "managed" cattle herds around... :/

Was it coincidence that CCD happened after an extreme dry season ( one which bankrupts swept away grain farms) with a new strain of nosema and a myriad of viral infections floating around? 
Bees like those... exhaust their fat stores.



The diagram is an exaggeration of what I'm saying but test during brooding hives in a derth. When a sudden derth falls on a hive, first thing nurse bees do is canibalize the youngest and mine their fat stores.
One hive tested after a few weeks in protein stress, the other hive tested after a few weeks with surplus protein stores.


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## Ian

JSL said:


> I like Ian's approach which keeps it simple. I posted a similar formulation on BS a year or two ago, and some of the guys said it was too simple.
> ]


What was suggested that needed to be added? Targeting anything in specific?


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## JSL

Ian said:


> Lol, just like some "managed" cattle herds around... :/
> 
> Was it coincidence that CCD happened after an extreme dry season ( one which bankrupts swept away grain farms) with a new strain of nosema and a myriad of viral infections floating around?
> Bees like those... exhaust their fat stores.
> 
> 
> 
> The diagram is an exaggeration of what I'm saying but test during brooding hives in a derth. When a sudden derth falls on a hive, first thing nurse bees do is canibalize the youngest and mine their fat stores.
> One hive tested after a few weeks in protein stress, the other hive tested after a few weeks with surplus protein stores.


Yes, I remember that photo from an earlier discussion we had. Body fat is stored energy. Keep in mind what the photo is describing, a forager and "winter bee", they each have their place in the cycle of the hive. Are you suggesting that that someone with low body fat is less healthy than some one who is considered obese? I am sure you are not, context is important.


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## JSL

Ian said:


> What was suggested that needed to be added? Targeting anything in specific?


I don't recall anything specific, but the formulation was not "complicated" enough. I suggested a two, which are below. I like adding honey and pollen, but they are not frequently used due to cost issues for commercial operations. They do not add much nutritionally, but do help consistency and consumption. HFCS acts as a preservative and also helps with consistency.

Ingredient 
Sugar 33.0 pounds
Water	27.0 pounds
Brewers Yeast	18.0 pounds 
Soy Flour 18.0 pounds 
Corn Oil	2.5 pounds
Latshaw Pre Mix	1.5 pounds
Total	100 Pounds of Patties
As Fed % Protein	Approx. = 17.5%


Ingredient 
Sugar 37.0 pounds
Water	27.0 pounds
Brewers Yeast	16.0 pounds 
Soy Flour 16.0 pounds 
Corn Oil	2.5 pounds
Latshaw Pre Mix	1.5 pounds
Total	100 Pounds of Patties
As Fed % Protein	Approx. = 15.5%


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## JSL

Ian said:


> Lol, just like some "managed" cattle herds around... :/
> 
> Was it coincidence that CCD happened after an extreme dry season ( one which bankrupts swept away grain farms) with a new strain of nosema and a myriad of viral infections floating around?
> Bees like those... exhaust their fat stores.


I am not sure I understand this statement... I would view it as malnourished animals are more susceptible to disease. Is this what you are saying? There are plenty of papers that look at the susceptibility of bees that are challenged with malnourishment, nosema, varroa and of course pesticides.


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## Ian

JSL said:


> Yes, I remember that photo from an earlier discussion we had. Body fat is stored energy. Keep in mind what the photo is describing, a forager and "winter bee", they each have their place in the cycle of the hive. Are you suggesting that that someone with low body fat is less healthy than some one who is considered obese? I am sure you are not, context is important.


Nope, the photo is exaggerating my point. In regards to bees, the only real measurement of mal nutrition we have is when the hive is protein stressed. 
>>Seriously though, how would you quantify that for the study?<<


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## Rader Sidetrack

Ian said:


> What was suggested that needed to be added? Targeting anything in specific?


Here is the earlier thread with Joe's recipes and the resulting comments ... 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275973-Pollen-Sub-Formulations-Input


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## Ian

like adding the egg because of the added fats and vit. Simple, available and cheap


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## Ian

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Here is the earlier thread with Joe's recipes and the resulting comments ...
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275973-Pollen-Sub-Formulations-Input


I gleaned more from that conversation reading it a second time.

My animal nutritionalist tells me diets are developed with known figures in hand, programs are developed when we start including unknowns into the equation


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## JSL

Ian said:


> Nope, the photo is exaggerating my point. In regards to bees, the only real measurement of mal nutrition we have is when the hive is protein stressed.
> >>Seriously though, how would you quantify that for the study?<<


Ian I don't have a good answer to how to quantify this. There are many possible parameters to measure which may have more or less significance at different times of the year under different colony demands. Protein is one nutrient, don't confuse it with energy requirements in the broader sense.


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## JSL

Ian said:


> My animal nutritionalist tells me diets are developed with known figures in hand, programs are developed when we start including unknowns into the equation


Very true, so when I look at a diet, I see things as percentages. Each ingredient contributes nutrients. Soy and yeast contribute similar nutrients, just in different percentages. The bulk ingredients supply the filler then we fill in around the edges with supplements or premixes to make sure it is pretty well balanced out. 

The formulations I posted earlier, believe it or not , meet the nutritional requirements pretty well. Adding things like honey, pollen, or eggs help to modify the texture and attractiveness. Bees want their food to taste and smell good too.


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## Ian

Do you add egg protein to your mix Joe?


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## HarryVanderpool

JSL said:


> How would you identify such bees, would their ribs show? Seriously though, how would you quantify that for the study?


Typically, sampling a population for weight of hypopharyngeal glands in micro grams.
There will be variation within a set but the averages will make the results apparent.


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## JRG13

Anyone done studies on percent conversion? Probably a hard metric with bees....


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## Ian

I've got hard numbers on cattle ... Lol


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## rangerbees

how would this recipee work without the pollen i have seen others without it but would love to know ur thoughts


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## Fishman43

rangerbees said:


> how would this recipee work without the pollen i have seen others without it but would love to know ur thoughts





JSL said:


> I like Ian's approach which keeps it simple. I posted a similar formulation on BS a year or two ago, and some of the guys said it was too simple. Diets really don't have to be complicated, and most aren't, but gimmicks sell...
> 
> Another similar diet that we have tested for "off the shelf" items that most can find at the grocery store is:
> 1 lbs yellow corn flour
> 3 lbs soy flour
> 1 lbs dried egg
> 1 lbs irradiated pollen *(optional)*
> 1.6 Tablespoons lemon juice
> 1.6 Tablespoons of corn oil (more can be added)
> 4-5 lbs HFCS or honey as Ian suggested


Joe says pollen is optional


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## rangerbees

great thank you fishman43


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## JSL

Ian said:


> Do you add egg protein to your mix Joe?


Yes, because I am uncertain... Egg is a relatively inexpensive source of dietary cholesterol. I am uncertain if bees can synthesize cholesterol from plant based precursors as most animals do, or if they are unable to synthesize cholesterol and require a dietary source. 

However, egg is a relatively expensive source of fat and protein. Fortunately, a little goes a long way. We typically use it in the single digits percentage wise.


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## JSL

HarryVanderpool said:


> Typically, sampling a population for weight of hypopharyngeal glands in micro grams.
> There will be variation within a set but the averages will make the results apparent.


Yes, that has been the traditional approach, but I feel as though that is more representative of colony brood rearing activity, which can be seasonally dependent. Does that make sense. I think there just has to be some good indicator of health, like going to the doctor for a check up and blood work.


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## JSL

JRG13 said:


> Anyone done studies on percent conversion? Probably a hard metric with bees....


Yep, good solid numbers for most commercial animal species. I think broiler chickens are the most efficient with a feed conversion ration of about 2#'s feed to 1# gain. Ruminants, tend to be the least efficient as they have the most steps to go through.


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## JSL

rangerbees said:


> how would this recipee work without the pollen i have seen others without it but would love to know ur thoughts


Pollen is a great additive, but comes with risks and is generally more expensive. It is beneficial as a stimulant for the bees. Most commercial formulations do not use it. The best you can hope for with stored pollen is that it is still somewhat nutritionally complete, but keep in mind it is quickly diluted in the sub.


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## Ian

rangerbees said:


> how would this recipee work without the pollen i have seen others without it but would love to know ur thoughts


rangerbees you got to realize feeding my protein patty mix is targeting different growth conditions than those of the Cali beekeepers who chat on this forum. My bees start brooding and grow during a time of heavy natural pollen flows. Protein availability generally is not an issue here, except during interruptions from weather. It is those interruption that I target my feeding around. All the rest of the time my bees generally ignore my patty.

I was able to feed 5lbs of patty on average this spring with this mix. Patty consumption was heavy early spring, then ignored for the majority of the spring until a sudden snow storm hit mid May right in the middle of a heavy maple pollen flow. The patties disappeared within days and needed more. Patties were then again given after our spring flows during the dearth before the summer Main Flow. 

I think the pollen was useful as a stimulant and attractant to my patties. If the bees needed the extra protein, they took it, if they did not need it they left it alone. Im not building bees on these patties as Cali beekeepers do with theirs, I'm insuring my hives don't fall short

Its a cheap patty, made up from off the shelf ingredients, the bees consume it well, it keeps well; no molding in the hive, and it holds its shape and texture; no drying out and no dripping out the front entrance of the hive...


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## Ian

JSL said:


> Ruminants, tend to be the least efficient as they have the most steps to go through.


ya but they take un useable roughage and turn it into $$$. we mainly focus on NRG and crude protein, aside from vit and min supplements. most other animal diets require more attention to the balance of their diet. Kinda like bees, got to work out that diet


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## JSL

Ian said:


> we mainly focus on NRG and crude protein, aside from vit and min supplements. most other animal diets require more attention to the balance of their diet. Kinda like bees, got to work out that diet


The approach is not all that different. You have bulk ingredients then use vitamin and mineral supplements to fill in around the edges to optimize efficiency and utilization.


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## Ian

whats your P/Ca ratio in your mineral mix and how do you figure that one out for bees?


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## rangerbees

hey thanks my intent is to build up faster early spring here in western ky will be splitting like mad to increce # as we did this year from 7 to 40 always looking for ways to speed up the brood building would this recipie help ?


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## rangerbees

ps we do have red maple pretty early but once again looking for fast build up plan to hit 200 ish hives next year


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## Ian

rangerbees said:


> would this recipie help ?


It will provide protein at times a supplement is needed


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## Ian

$1.50/lbs -20 lbs Brewers yeast 
$0.70/lbs -20 lbs soy flour 
$2.50/lbs -10 lbs dried egg
$5.00/lbs -10 lbs irradiated pollen
$0.50/cup -Cup lemon juice
$0.50/cup -Cup of canola oil
$1 -Pro Health
$0.30/lbs -40-50 lbs HFCS

100lbs batch roughly figures out to $1.25/lbs, roughly $1.2/lbs without pollen.


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## zhiv9

rangerbees said:


> ps we do have red maple pretty early but once again looking for fast build up plan to hit 200 ish hives next year


Its about meeting their protein requirements when the weather turns and/or getting them started before the first pollen (especially Carniolan or Russian like stock). A couple of weeks of bad weather in early May can really set them back. RO touches on it in this excellent series of articles on colony build-up an decline, here's one part: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/understanding-colony-buildup-and-decline-part-3/

Swings in pollen availability can really set them back during the spring turnover and linear growth phase.

"A colony cannot rear the necessary amount of brood on body reserves alone [18]—it requires either ample stores of uncontaminated and nutritionally complete beebread or early tree pollens."


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## JSL

Ian said:


> whats your P/Ca ratio in your mineral mix and how do you figure that one out for bees?


That's a great question Ian, but one I cannot answer for proprietary reasons. It is a good example of why all nutrients need to be accounted for in each ingredient that goes into a sub formula.


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## Ian

So when you look at my supplement mix, which way would you adjust my P/Ca ratio?
It's a really important ratio to provide in our gestating and lactating livestock, after feed analysis we target a 2(Ca):1(P), we switch to a 1:1 for our yearling stock . 
For bees, are you mearly looking for a 1:1 balance or do you increase the Ca like we do for gestating animals ?


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## JSL

I will be mixing some research batches of vitamin and mineral supplements in the the coming weeks and thought I would offer to send out vitamin and mineral premix samples for the diet below. Ian's diet is similar to one we tested and I have a formulation for the premix. A premix is fairly specific and is formulated for this diet. If you would like to give this diet a try I will package up 10 samples for the first 10 people to email me (j dot latshaw at aol dot com) their shipping address that USPS will deliver to. It will only be the first 10... 

The samples will be 1.5# for the specific batch below. This is not a product we sell and all I ask is that you share your experience on BeeSource and if you are so inclined, make a donation to BeeSource.

20 lbs Brewers yeast 
20 lbs soy flour 
10 lbs dried egg
10 lbs irradiated pollen
Cup lemon juice
Cup of canola oil
40-50 lbs HFCS
1.5 lbs vitamin and mineral premix - Sample***


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## clyderoad

JSL>> very benevolant of you. My hat is off to you.

Since I have 100lbs of bee pro powder for the spring I wonder if your vit and mineral mix would increase/complete it's nutritional
value/profile. A supplement to supplement the supplement, so to speak.


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## JSL

clyderoad said:


> JSL>> very benevolant of you. My hat is off to you.
> 
> Since I have 100lbs of bee pro powder for the spring I wonder if your vit and mineral mix would increase/complete it's nutritional
> value/profile. A supplement to supplement the supplement, so to speak.


Thank you for the kind words.

I would not suggest the above premix sample for adding to Bee Pro. The reason is I don't have all the nutritional specs for Bee Pro. The premix sample I am offering is very specific to the patty formula Ian listed. In other words, the parts are not interchangeable...


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## Fusion_power

I went over the mixes mentioned in this thread and the previous thread and noticed that they are each a bit weak on Lysine and significantly weak on Methionine. So now I'm curious what you do to increase Methionine and Lysine in your proprietary mix?

As an fyi, I got some high methionine corn from ARS-Grin and made a custom hybrid to feed my chickens. High methionine corn used as a supplement increases egg production by about 3 eggs per hen per month as compared with feeding only commercial layer pellets from the local co-op. This is not a major increase, but it is enough to put methionine on my radar screen for feed purposes.


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## JSL

Dar, the numbers look reasonable to me. Based on my calculations, Lysine is fine. Methionine is lower relative to the other AA's but it is within reason too.


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## JRG13

It depends on how much Lysine and Methionine are used in protein construction by the bees that determines if lower levels are actually limiting factors or not.


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## Ian

Just got back to the farm, I'll be in touch Joe


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## Ian

I don't have my worksheet infront of me, from what I had based my recipe on showed high protein, showed a balance, proved to be palatable and mixed ingredients on a budget. 

From what I have available here, this mix has shown more palatable than my premix and prepared supplement that I have fed in the past. I tossed none of my patties in the bush last year ... as compared to others and fed up to 5 lbs through out the spring per hive


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## JSL

Ian, I agree the recipe is nice simple formula that does pretty well with off the shelf ingredients. It doesn't have to be fancy... My can find bulk yeast and soy relatively close to home. Pollen is the one ingredient that is a little more expensive and tricky. The pollen is a good addition, but not essential. It can be replaced with equal amounts of yeast and soy.


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## Mbeck

Couple of open questions

Rate of consumption, how much do they eat and how fast? 

There must be an economic sweet spot where the cost of ingredients measured against the availible protein and rate of consumption offer the best Value? So it the answer less protein as a % and faster consumption (add sucrose etc.) or higher protein % slower consumption ? 


Many of the recipes posted on this thread are roughly 50% ingredients not containing protein (carbs, water oil etc.) and 50% ingredients containing protein (yeast, soy,egg). 

If syrup is being fed on top of sub why not just feed dry (it seems northern bees take dry more readily) as they would only need to take 1/2 the weight for comparable protein?


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## Mbeck

JSL said:


> Yes, because I am uncertain... I am uncertain if bees can synthesize cholesterol from plant based precursors as most animals do, or if they are unable to synthesize cholesterol and require a dietary source.


Something related that may be of interest.

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._prepupal_sterols_J_Insect_Physiol_26_291-294


Keith will probably jump in and explain the goals associated with adding fats to sub and the best method to meet those goals.


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## JSL

Mbeck said:


> Something related that may be of interest.
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/public..._prepupal_sterols_J_Insect_Physiol_26_291-294


Thanks Mbeck, I have read that one. Plant based sterols are different than "animal sourced". Most of the oils and ingredients we use are plant based, which may or may not be sufficient. Better safe than sorry...


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## JSL

JSL said:


> I will be mixing some research batches of vitamin and mineral supplements in the the coming weeks and thought I would offer to send out vitamin and mineral premix samples for the diet below. Ian's diet is similar to one we tested and I have a formulation for the premix. A premix is fairly specific and is formulated for this diet. If you would like to give this diet a try I will package up 10 samples for the first 10 people to email me (j dot latshaw at aol dot com) their shipping address that USPS will deliver to. It will only be the first 10...
> 
> The samples will be 1.5# for the specific batch below. This is not a product we sell and all I ask is that you share your experience on BeeSource and if you are so inclined, make a donation to BeeSource.
> 
> 20 lbs Brewers yeast
> 20 lbs soy flour
> 10 lbs dried egg
> 10 lbs irradiated pollen
> Cup lemon juice
> Cup of canola oil
> 40-50 lbs HFCS
> 1.5 lbs vitamin and mineral premix - Sample***


Still have a few samples unspoken for.


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## Ian

Mbeck said:


> Couple of open questions
> 
> Rate of consumption, how much do they eat and how fast?
> 
> There must be an economic sweet spot where the cost of ingredients measured against the availible protein and rate of consumption offer the best Value? So it the answer less protein as a % and faster consumption (add sucrose etc.) or higher protein % slower consumption ?
> 
> 
> Many of the recipes posted on this thread are roughly 50% ingredients not containing protein (carbs, water oil etc.) and 50% ingredients containing protein (yeast, soy,egg).
> 
> If syrup is being fed on top of sub why not just feed dry (it seems northern bees take dry more readily) as they would only need to take 1/2 the weight for comparable protein?


Palatability


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## Keith Jarrett

Mbeck said:


> Keith will probably jump in and explain the goals associated with adding fats to sub and the best method to meet those goals.


  

Hey how the meeting down in FL.


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## Mbeck

Keith Jarrett said:


> Hey how the meeting down in FL.




I didn't make plans to go and now I'm regretting it I feel like everyone on the state is there except me. Can't believe you didn't bring some sub out.

Can the question of cholesterol/sterols be answered?

Where to find this info?

If there is a single vitamin that is most effective in helping them synthesize it what ingredient is high in it?


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## Ian

This past spring I moved hives out to a pasture... to realize on my next visit that the area was staged a week behind and had not bloomed as the rest of the country side was. Instant derth, and my expanding brooding hives went into instant cannibalism. I dropped a pound of this patty on each hive, which they devoured in a week and turned it straight into brood. 
This recipe is basic but it works


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## WBVC

Ian said:


> like adding the egg because of the added fats and vit. Simple, available and cheap


What is the contact info for the dried eggs and the Chinese pollen?


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## RichardsonTX

Ian said:


> $1.50/lbs -20 lbs Brewers yeast
> $0.70/lbs -20 lbs soy flour
> $2.50/lbs -10 lbs dried egg
> $5.00/lbs -10 lbs irradiated pollen
> $0.50/cup -Cup lemon juice
> $0.50/cup -Cup of canola oil
> $1 -Pro Health
> $0.30/lbs -40-50 lbs HFCS
> 
> 100lbs batch roughly figures out to $1.25/lbs, roughly $1.2/lbs without pollen.


Where can I get dried egg at that price?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Keep in mind that _Ian_ is located in Canada, so those ingredient prices are Canadian dollars. In addition to being a large scale beekeeper, Ian and his family are also large scale cattle producers, so they buy feed/ingredients by the truckload.

For the best pricing on powered eggs in Texas, I'd contact an animal feed dealer/mill. Be prepared to buy _more_ than 10 lbs.


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## Ian

I price my fried egg and irradiated pollen from BeeMaid, Winnipeg MB. 
The Whole Dried Egg is shipped out of Ontario. The irradiated pollen has been brought in from China. 

We do buy feed supplements by the truckload but not for the bee farm. I buy all my bee mix by the bag full from BeeMaid. I do however talk supplements with our farm nutritionalist. I don't know all those finite details about animal nutrition as some do but I do know where to get the information I need. 

My objective formulating this recipe;
Balanced AA profile 
High protein 
Adequate fats vit 
Palatable
All ingredients available off the shelf
All ingredients keep well in dry form on the shelf 
NEVER dries out and goes hard 
HBH keeps it from molding
***Mixed on a budget**** Costs can be adjusted


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## zhiv9

For dried whole egg - look for an ingredients company. Here are two in Ontario that carry it - I am assuming there are similar companies in Texas.

http://www.perthingredients.com/
http://elmiraig.com/

I would expect minimum package sizes to be 20kg or 50lbs.

I am not sure what the shelf life is like on the dried whole egg.


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## zhiv9

I think it's worth mentioning that for spring buildup (at least this area) you aren't substituting pollen as much as you are giving the bees a bit of an early start and supplementing natural pollen. We have good spring tree pollen sources, but the weather doesn't always cooperate and the sub fills in the gaps to ensure you are supporting steady colony growth.

This is a different thing than having sub make up all their protein for a long period of time - to do that your nutritional balance has to be much better.


----------



## Ian

1200 lbs of 2lbs patties



Early spring feeding, one week after feeding 2 lbs... before the first early spring pollen flow 



Cut and wrap prep during non bee working days


----------



## Ian

zhiv9 said:


> I think it's worth mentioning that for spring buildup (at least this area) you aren't substituting pollen as much as you are giving the bees a bit of an early start and supplementing natural pollen. We have good spring tree pollen sources, but the weather doesn't always cooperate and the sub fills in the gaps to ensure you are supporting steady colony growth.
> 
> This is a different thing than having sub make up all their protein for a long period of time - to do that your nutritional balance has to be much better.


Ya bumping the CP 
Looking at this recipe, how would you improve the nutritional balance ?


----------



## mgolden

Does a pre mix such as BeePro meet nutrition requirements???????? for pollen patties?

Think it was approx. $75 for a 50lb bag.

I added sugar, some water, some lemon juice to better the taste, some canola oil to keep moist, and flattened a patty between two sheets of wax paper. Bees ate from sides and up through bottom sheet of wax paper. Top wax paper mostly stayed untouched and kept patty moist.

Sugar was 40 cents per pound so patty is approx. 75 cents a pound. 

Worked great for me.


----------



## Ian

If it's working... Hair straight back !


----------



## Ian

Ian said:


> So when you look at my supplement mix, which way would you adjust my P/Ca ratio?
> It's a really important ratio to provide in our gestating and lactating livestock, after feed analysis we target a 2(Ca):1(P), we switch to a 1:1 for our yearling stock .
> For bees, are you mearly looking for a 1:1 balance or do you increase the Ca like we do for gestating animals ?


Joe, does the pre mix your sending me for my recipe adjust for the P/Ca ratio? And if so, which dietary requirement are you targeting when formulating ?


----------



## zhiv9

Ian said:


> Ya bumping the CP
> Looking at this recipe, how would you improve the nutritional balance ?


Sorry, I probably phrased that poorly. I don't have the background to really evaluate your recipe and wasn't trying to imply it was deficient. I purchased the BeeTech patties last season that are also based on the OBA recipe and was really happy with the consumption rate, colony build-up and lack of waste. I was more trying to make the point that you can get away with a deficient recipe for a lot longer if there is intermittent natural pollen coming in. The difference between substituting and supplementing.


----------



## Ian

I hear ya. Its all about providing those building blocks. The best stuff is "free" , beekeeper applied feed stuffs run on a budget.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Mbeck said:


> Can't believe you didn't bring some sub out.


That would have been fun to go MB, to your other questions, I think there are many different view points there, mine.... mix it with good stuff, show the results and they will come.


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> Joe, does the pre mix your sending me for my recipe adjust for the P/Ca ratio? And if so, which dietary requirement are you targeting when formulating ?


Ian, yes, the premix adjusts for the Ca ratio in the supplement.


----------



## JSL

Premix samples are spoken for. Thanks!


----------



## Ian

JSL said:


> Ian, yes, the premix adjusts for the Ca ratio in the supplement.


But which way? Are you adjusting for a balance or are you increasing the Ca?


----------



## Ian

JSL said:


> That's a great question Ian, but one I cannot answer for proprietary reasons. It is a good example of why all nutrients need to be accounted for in each ingredient that goes into a sub formula.


As you eluded to earlier and why your not speaking specifics, which I don't understand. 

Here is how the conversation goes with our livestock nutritionalist;

Ian, your feed base has a CP of X%, an NRG base of Y and vit min base of zyx

Group A dietary targets are ____, off the base you need to; mix X in to boost the CP, Y in to increase the NRG, and one cup this, one cup that of our zyx vit min supplement

We have 10 different ration mixes, half of them focused on specific vit and min supplements. They tell us where our feed base is deficient, they tell us what our specific dietary needs are, and they provide us with a supplement mix with listed ingredients and amounts. 
Our livestock industry has no feed additive secrets, can we think of any reasons why??

Relate this to bees... fill in the blanks ,? We need to know what our stock is consuming and why they are consuming it.


----------



## Ian

So in reality , the bee business is not where the livestock feed industry is. 
Don't give out your proprietary secrets for these dietary mixes , but what are those baseline dietary targets that these supplements are balancing ? 

Simply put, are you balancing the P:Ca ratio or are you boosting the Ca? and as my nutritionalist asks me, why?


----------



## mgolden

I see it suggested that bee nutrition is part of the cause of bee problems. Yet there are all the secrets out there about pollen patties and sugar blocks.

As my post earlier, I have been using BeePro as part of my pollen patty but do not know if my mixture is close to what is needed. Seems to mostly work.

Maybe just a little of the resource of those studying Bee Decline should be to provide a recipe for pollen patties and sugar blocks. It surely isn't rocket science.


----------



## Ian

>>Maybe just a little of the resource of those studying Bee Decline

I couldn't agree more


----------



## Keith Jarrett

mgolden said:


> .
> Maybe just a little of the resource of those studying Bee Decline should be to provide a recipe for pollen patties and sugar blocks. It surely isn't rocket science.


Wow.


----------



## Ian

Wow


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> So in reality , the bee business is not where the livestock feed industry is.
> Don't give out your proprietary secrets for these dietary mixes , but what are those baseline dietary targets that these supplements are balancing ?
> 
> Simply put, are you balancing the P:Ca ratio or are you boosting the Ca? and as my nutritionalist asks me, why?


Ian, I see where you are coming from, and would agree, the bee industry is not up to speed with the rest of the animal industry. 

Your nutritionist is working with and providing your farm with nutritional values that were most likely determined some time ago from research nutritionists at a land grant institution. They are working with what is generally regarded a public information and selling you a service. Your farm in turn benefits from that service and their products to then produce a product of your own to sell. 

My situation is slightly different in that I provide the funding and resources to determine the proper nutritional values and then take that information to produce a product. The baseline dietary targets are a key part of the IP I work to develop. I hope you do not fault me for that.


----------



## Ian

Of course not , I appreciate your service 👍
But when I'm buying a product which balances my patty vit and min, tell me what that means..? Balanced to what? Based off what? To what value?


----------



## Mbeck

Im less experienced and have fewer bees than most but I'm still always interested in this topic.

I ask questions and try to glean bits of knowledge for my own use but find this is how these threads generally go.

Original poster: I feed my bees X recipe does anyone have any thought on how to improve it.

Reply: It's important to remember that The balance of Y value is vital to healthy bees.

OP: How do I achieve balance in regards to Y?

Reply: I can't tell you it's a secret ingredient and it wouldn't matter anyways because your recipe uses Z and that's apples to oranges.

Op: What is the nutritional requirement of Honey bees?

Reply: No one really knows (after lots of talk about regional differences, free forage factors ,varying demands and suggestions of deep study,research and contemplation on this very technical and complicated subject)

How about these questions?

What does it cost?

What does it produce? Ex: #'s of frames of brood

If you can't measure it, it isn't real.

I'd think the biggest improvement and easiest improvement could be found in value and qualityof the protein. In larger amounts corn might be the ticket after that I'd fool with seaweed or a spirulina type and maybe different oils. Improvements aren't real if you can't measure them.


----------



## JSL

Mbeck said:


> I'd think the biggest improvement and easiest improvement could be found in value and qualityof the protein. In larger amounts corn might be the ticket after that I'd fool with seaweed or a spirulina type and maybe different oils. Improvements aren't real if you can't measure them.


Mbeck, I would tend to disagree with this statement. The protein side is relatively easy with so many readily available ingredients. Find what is close, economical and palatable. It accounts for a large portion of the diet in terms of bulk, so cost is a real driving factor for most beekeepers. Obtain a relatively good balance and keep moving.


----------



## Ian

Let me put my questions a different way, I'll adjust my tone 

What vit or min do you see as lacking? To the extent where specifically supplementing it is required? 

..............

Every morning we use to process every new born calves with a cc of selenium and Vit A, a min and vit known to be deficient in newly born animals whose mothers consumed dry feed rations during important periods of gestation. Info not derived from 80 year old work. Fast forward to today, where we are providing all those nutrients directly to the gestating mother through a prepared ration, no more vit min injection... And healthy calves👍

I presume this is the objective with adding vit min in our bee supplements... Just make sure the levels are at ??? And we are good

Which leads the question... Why the secrecy? If the portions are to boost to generallized levels, where does proprietary fall into this equation? What generalized response are you addressing ? And what generalized response am I to see?


----------



## clyderoad

JSL>>>
does your company offer consulting services to commercial beekeepers regarding balanced formulation of feed
supplements for honey bees in addition to selling your own Latshaw supplement as described on your website ?
if so, could you briefly explain what a typical consulting job entails?


----------



## Mbeck

JSL said:


> Mbeck The protein side is relatively easy with so many readily available ingredients.


Exactly, the price and freshness is verifiable and nutritional content is tested and guaranteed comparing this against widely accepted protien and amino acid profile standards and we can judge value. 


Wouldn't a 25% savings in any recipes normal protien source that makes up 50% of that recipe would translate into at least a 12% improvement in efficiency?

That's not to mention any improvement that could be found by obtaining a fresher, better milled etc. protien @ the same cost.

There doesn't seem to be any other ingredient or combination of ingredient that can be proven to be of value short of feeding it to the tune of thousands of #'s over multiple years.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Mbeck said:


> Wouldn't a 25% savings in any recipes normal protien source that makes up 50% of that recipe would translate into at least a 12% improvement in efficiency?


Not necessarily, those numbers definitely would not match my protein profile by percent , but might match others.


----------



## BEES4U

01/10/2016
I have found the following link to be very useful over the years: 

Down load a working Pollen Supplement Patty Calculator Spreadsheet.

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/default.htm

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## Mbeck

Maybe I didn't explain correctly. Ian's recipe contains roughly 50% ingredients that provide protien (soy, yeast & egg) if he was able to save 25% of the cost on those ingredients he would get more measurable performance for his money. I wasn't suggesting a 50% protien profile.

If I ask the pro's the question..Is getting a better quality, rapidly consumable, balanced and digestable protien cheaper likely to have an improvement on my results ( measured the only way it matters) ? I'd guess most will say of course.

How about any question I ask ask about vitamins, minerals, probiotics , lipids, fats , oil , sterols ,cinnamon , rum or powdered Tang? 

Perfect value proteins are harder to get then secret ingredients.


----------



## JSL

clyderoad said:


> JSL>>>
> does your company offer consulting services to commercial beekeepers regarding balanced formulation of feed
> supplements for honey bees in addition to selling your own Latshaw supplement as described on your website ?
> if so, could you briefly explain what a typical consulting job entails?


Yes, the supplement I sell is a generalized formulation that targets the harder to find nutrients. The premix I mentioned earlier is what I can provide to larger operations and is designed specifically for whatever diet specifications the beekeeper is using. In Ian's case I happened to have tested a diet very similar to his and had a formulation in hand already, and so offered to run some samples. For other operations, beekeepers provide their formulation so that I can formulate a premix specifically for it. 

Diets are like mathematical equations, there are many ways to solve them and get the final answer it just depends on what is available and economical.


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> What vit or min do you see as lacking? To the extent where specifically supplementing it is required?
> 
> 
> I presume this is the objective with adding vit min in our bee supplements... Just make sure the levels are at ??? And we are good
> 
> What generalized response are you addressing ? And what generalized response am I to see?


The premix generally accounts for approximately 30 nutrients. Some are simply lacking in the bulk ingredients, while some need to be balanced such as Ca.

Since most beekeepers feed for growth our target is a simple, balanced growth based diet. When looking at a very basic diet, I typically see a 5-7% increase in consumption simply by adding a premix. If a "better" more attractive diet is used consumption increases further. Simply feeding bees is the best approach to increase production, the next step is to fill in around the edges and balance out the ration. Keep in mind the genetics of the stock and the environment also play a big role in growth and performance. You can't force feed bees...


----------



## Ian

JSL said:


> You can't force feed bees...


You can with cattle, whether or not that feed is sufficient is the point most producers miss.

I have learnt bees can not be forced to feed... Various pre made patty brands and my own variation of mixtures inevitably hit the bush... 

Palatable is a key word, pollen and my addition of honey served as an attractant. My note pad shows a generalized AA balance, CP should be higher, the egg serves to boost where the soy and Brewers lack in protein and provides a nice complement of fats and Vit. 

More importantly learning how to feed the supplement is where I see the most response. I love to blame the brand name patty for the poor consumption; If the hive is not brooding, obviously they are not eating... Unlike a force fed cow, they ain't packing on the fat! If there is pollen out there, expect lower to no consumption but I've had high consumption during a pollen flow, not all pollen is nutritious. 

Most importantly; when the hive is chugging along with 4 frames of brood expanding into 5 mid spring and a week long snow storm hits..!!! that supplement needed to be out on yesterday's forecast


----------



## Ian

Have you seen a positive response by boosting the Ca ratio balance to a 2:1? 

When you look at a frame of freshly fed larvae, the thought comes to mind... these bees are providing everything needed to create another bee exactly their size..!
I may seem to be critical of your input Joe, to the contrary I have subscribed to your news letter a long time ago. 

To the point of my question, does the supplement balance or improve the Ca ratio?


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> To the point of my question, does the supplement balance or improve the Ca ratio?


Yes


----------



## Mbeck

Keith Jarrett said:


> mix it with good stuff, show the results and they will come.


I heard good things about your product from my neighbor.
Specifically that it was the least liked by beetles.

Can you hurry up and offer it in 50# cases so I can stop playing nutritionist?
I'd like to be a beekeeper not a ingredient sourcing, protien mixer!!


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Mbeck said:


> Specifically that it was the least liked by beetles.


Yes, I have been told that by keepers (costumers) in east TX & FL.


----------



## Ian

...or an indirect result of stronger hives due to the quality of supplement


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> ...or an indirect result of stronger hives due to the quality of supplement


Ian, when feeding sub it takes 40-60 days before you even start seeing some upward movement from the hives. What happens is you feed in the fall, the bees seem to build & not slip over winter, then in early spring when the days start getting longer the bees will bolt out of the gate. We all have the " good-bad & ugly in our outfits, it's a matter of keeping the dinks to a minimum.


----------



## Ian

understood, 40-60 days;
we play a different game than you guys do.... short season management. 
My feeding directly targets two things; 
-stimulus buying two weeks off the start
-sustain, feeding keeps them going strong through weather interruptions, pollen deficient areas and intermittent dearth 

Mid May, a yard of 8 frame brood chugging along days away from my spring split, sitting inside for a week due to weather...and did not skip a beat. That "did I just waste my time and money" 2 lbs supplement inbetween boxes was completely devoured within that week


In September we get them to this stage, then feed them to shut them down, until April


----------



## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> Yes, I have been told that by keepers (costumers) in east TX & FL.


which begs the question...


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Ian, I have made a bunch of mistakes over the last 30 years of sub making. Here where I live in N. Cali package bees & almonds are it, So sub feeding & making is a must. Just look at the names on this page and ask yourself how many were feeding & making sub 30 years ago?


----------



## JSL

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ian, I have made a bunch of mistakes over the last 30 years of sub making. Here where I live in N. Cali package bees & almonds are it, So sub feeding & making is a must. Just look at the names on this page and ask yourself how many were feeding & making sub 30 years ago?


Well, I sure am glad I did not have 30 years of mistakes to get where I am now... but I can now claim 30+ years of beekeeping...

Sorry Keith, just couldn't resist hope all is going well on the west coast!


----------



## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ian, I have made a bunch of mistakes over the last 30 years of sub making. Here where I live in N. Cali package bees & almonds are it, So sub feeding & making is a must. Just look at the names on this page and ask yourself how many were feeding & making sub 30 years ago?


and Dad was putting fert on his fields by the 55 lbs bag 30 years ago, lol


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> and Dad was putting fert on his fields by the 55 lbs bag 30 years ago, lol


Yep, were going to be late this year planting with all this rain, but I'm sure not going to complain about it, the really chore is getting everything dried right so it won't pug up the mill at harvest, wouldn't want a bunch of chaff on the bottom boards. Endless learning curve.


----------



## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> Yep, were going to be late this year planting with all this rain, but I'm sure not going to complain about it, the really chore is getting everything dried right so it won't pug up the mill at harvest, wouldn't want a bunch of chaff on the bottom boards. Endless learning curve.


It impresses me that you grow your supplement requirements, as I think I remember you saying. Quality control for sure. How many acres soybeans takes to fill your orders?


----------



## Ian

Anyone have a good site which lists nutritional analysis of food products? Soy, Brewers, Dried egg. Sure a lot of variability. 
I'm taking my recipe into detail, to ask Joe some questions..


----------



## WBVC

Ian said:


> Anyone have a good site which lists nutritional analysis of food products? Soy, Brewers, Dried egg. Sure a lot of variability.
> I'm taking my recipe into detail, to ask Joe some questions..


Did I miss it or did you say where you get dried egg and soy at reasonable prices. It doesn't add up getting it through a home baking outlet.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> Quality control for sure.


It's not so much that Ian, it's just not available for sale in raw form.


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> Anyone have a good site which lists nutritional analysis of food products? Soy, Brewers, Dried egg. Sure a lot of variability.


I wouldn't worry too much about the variability from manufacture to manufacture, but work from the spec sheet for the product that is readily available to you.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> Well, I sure am glad I did not have 30 years of mistakes to get where I am now... but I can now claim 30+ years of beekeeping...
> 
> Sorry Keith, just couldn't resist hope all is going well on the west coast!


Hey Joe, I didn't say I stopped at 30 lol, yeah know I look at life & beekeeping this way, 1) you can watch things happen..... 2) you can make things happen.... 3) or you can wonder what the hell just happen.  lol every so often I'm on #3.
PS, It's raining out here on the left coast what more could a keeper ask for.


----------



## JSL

Keith Jarrett said:


> 3) or you can wonder what the hell just happen.  lol every so often I'm on #3.
> PS, It's raining out here on the left coast what more could a keeper ask for.


Yep, I hear you! I just try my best to keep those days to a minimum and try to repeat those mistakes as little as possible.

I have heard you are getting some rain, just hope it is not too much, but I know you sure need it!

Hope you have a great year!


----------



## Mbeck

Keith Jarrett said:


> Yep, were going to be late this year planting with all this rain, but I'm sure not going to complain about it, the really chore is getting everything dried right so it won't pug up the mill at harvest, wouldn't want a bunch of chaff on the bottom boards. Endless learning curve.





Keith Jarrett said:


> It's not so much that Ian, it's just not available for sale in raw form.


What is this some kind of cruel riddle?


----------



## Ian

WBVC said:


> Did I miss it or did you say where you get dried egg and soy at reasonable prices. It doesn't add up getting it through a home baking outlet.


Try BeeMaid


----------



## Mbeck

Ian this book looks like it may have some solid dietary requirement info.

https://play.google.com/store/books...pt_read&pcampaignid=books_booksearch_viewport


----------



## Ian

Ian said:


> To the point of my question, does the supplement balance or improve the Ca ratio?





JSL said:


> Yes


Which way are you improving this ratio? 

Im currently working through the vit and min in my supplement recipe, and so far I'm seeing everything to be in there, What exactly are we improving by adding a vit/min supplement?


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

So hopefully we all don't have to experiment another 30 years with patties. :shhhh:

What were the three major mistakes you made? What were the three major important positive findings? 

Bernhard


----------



## Keith Jarrett

BernhardHeuvel said:


> What were the three major mistakes you made? What were the three major important positive findings?


Hard question BerhardHeuvel, "mistakes" 1)thinking that all that matters is looking at the "CA" profile of a product, 2) finding that 100 year old remities (sp) or practices still work today. 3) being very careful what gets in the mix as some like lemon juice may wipe out other ingredients in the mix & sometimes maybe shooting myself in the foot.

"positives" 1) getting product from the field to the bag is quite an under taking. 2) getting the bees not to drop or slip in volume on sub ( take a look at Randy's chart in the abj, huge drops over winter on subs) 3) looking at it from not just a piece of Doug but from every angel of the commercial keeper, like can we make this somehow the beetles don't wipe it out, can we make this for the guy that feeds above the lid in 50 degree weather to the guy that feeds five pounds at a time between the boxes in 90 degree weather. All these subs have to be made differently for them to work out in the field. We have about ten different blends, according to where you place the sub, how much at a feeding & the temps that you will be feeding in. Best of luck to all 2016.


----------



## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> thinking that all that matters is looking at the "CA" profile of a product, .


mistake?? 
im asking the reason behind adding to improve ... improve what??
extremely interested in your lemon juice comment....


----------



## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> All these subs have to be made differently for them to work out in the field. We have about ten different blends, according to where you place the sub, how much at a feeding & the temps that you will be feeding.


Sounds like our daily livestock mixes, and sounds extremely detailed, but when we understand what we are trying to accomplish it just like mixing a cake. The key is to know what exactly we are trying to do.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Sad, I liked the lemon juice in the mix. Now I will leave it out.


----------



## Ian

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Sad, I liked the lemon juice in the mix. Now I will leave it out.


Why?


----------



## Keith Jarrett

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Sad, I liked the lemon juice in the mix. Now I will leave it out.


BernhardHeuvel, Please don't take what I say with a wide brush, it won't work for me as I use some sensitive ingredients and do not want to compromise them. Many pollen subs are brews yeast and or soy yeast, lemons would not be a factor, although you want to stay away from anything with high moisture. Just remember pollen substitute can cover of a lot of material.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Ok, I see. 

Some years ago, I stumbled upon a study showing that stinging nettle tea helped to make weak hives recover. Tried it with great success, just nettles boiled in water and after it cooled mixed with sugar to make it attractive. Good remedy for hives that were weakened. (In summer that is.) I wonder what specific ingredient of that tea makes the bees recover. And if that could be put into a patty recipe.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

That was the nettle study: http://www.usab-tm.ro/fileadmin/fzb...HEMISTRY,BIOPHYSICS,MATHEMATICS/Marghitas.pdf


----------



## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> BernhardHeuvel, Please don't take what I say with a wide brush, it won't work for me as I use some sensitive ingredients and do not want to compromise them. Many pollen subs are brews yeast and or soy yeast, lemons would not be a factor, although you want to stay away from anything with high moisture. Just remember pollen substitute can cover of a lot of material.


Any other good affordable source of Vit C I should look at?
Lemon juice is good for that


----------



## Keith Jarrett

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Some years ago, I stumbled upon a study showing that stinging nettle tea helped to make weak hives recover. Tried it with great success.


So now you know why I grow, harvest & mill my ingredients for Nutra Bee sub. I'll take your stinging nettle that you posted to illustrate, say you want to buy a tote (2000lb) of dried nettle? You guess it, you can't so you have to grow it. Some were making jokes about 30 years of mistakes..... the funny thing is there 40 years behind me.


----------



## Ian

Ah nobody is discrediting your product Keith, I hear good things, but until your product finds its way up here affordably (small market Manitoba) ... I gotta brew my own feed 

Any leads on a great affordable source of Vit C?


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> Ah nobody is discrediting your product Keith,


I'm just having a little fun Ian, I'm pretty thick skinned. Vit C, turn over lots of rocks until you find the right one.


----------



## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> I'm just having a little fun Ian, I'm pretty thick skinned. Vit C, turn over lots of rocks until you find the right one.


Love the feedback, 👍

Off to the supplement store


----------



## Chip Euliss

Off topic Keith but thanks for the sub I picked up last week. Gave each hive 2 lbs and they were throwing wax paper out the front door the next morning. Opened a few up and the consumption rate is great--the bees like it. I plan to head back to North Dakota soon. I hear there's a heat wave up north. Ian, is that true or are my kids lying to me?


----------



## Ian

Chip Euliss said:


> I plan to head back to North Dakota soon. I hear there's a heat wave up north. Ian, is that true or are my kids lying to me?


-30 gets pretty close to a temperature we both understand ...


----------



## Chip Euliss

Yes sir and at -40, we are exactly the same. My daughter's dog is loving it since he gets to stay in the house when it's that cold!


----------



## jean-marc

I guess the dog days of North Dakota has a different kinda meaning.

Jean-Marc


----------



## JSL

BernhardHeuvel said:


> What were the three major mistakes you made? What were the three major important positive findings?


First, do something... If your bees need attention or feed, something is better than nothing. Short term feeding is more forgiving. Most subs will fit the bill just fine. Longer term supplements should be properly balanced.

Make sure you sub is economical. Cost seems to be the primary driver for most operations. It may take some searching but find ingredients that are readily available and economical and build your sub around them.

Don't expect miracles. If there are underlying management issues, even the best sub will not solve all your beekeeping issues.


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> Which way are you improving this ratio?
> 
> Im currently working through the vit and min in my supplement recipe, and so far I'm seeing everything to be in there, What exactly are we improving by adding a vit/min supplement?


Let's start with the Ca... Take a look at your spec sheets for the yeast, soy and egg. 
What are the %Ca and %P values for each ingredient below?

If you use:

20# Yeast 
20# Soy 
10# Egg


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> Any other good affordable source of Vit C I should look at?
> Lemon juice is good for that


Ian, why the vit C?


----------



## Ian

JSL said:


> Let's start with the Ca... Take a look at your spec sheets for the yeast, soy and egg.
> What are the %Ca and %P values for each ingredient below?
> 
> If you use:
> 
> 20# Yeast
> 20# Soy
> 10# Egg


So when I plug these values in and read my nutrient summary... I have no idea if one is sufficient or lacking or what to base off
As long as my math is correct; with those proportions, Ca ratio of 1:2.7. 

So because pollen generally shows a 1:2 Ca ratio, is that our target or are you balancing that? 
This is an important ratio for livestock, how important is this for honeybees?

As for the Vit C, there is no value there, I've brought that in with the lemon juice which provides such a small bit of it overall, Im thinking of supplementing that otherways. 

So you ask "why the Vit C?" Good question, other than the obvious benefits to us, assuming those same benefits transfer... Everything I read suggest "vit C in sup may be beneficial" but I'm wondering if the pH adjustment is the beneficial outcome... 

Another shot in the dark for me 

:thumbsup:


----------



## Chip Euliss

jean-marc said:


> I guess the dog days of North Dakota has a different kinda meaning.
> 
> Jean-Marc



Yep, "Sun Dogs"


----------



## Ian

Chip Euliss said:


> Yep, "Sun Dogs"


We have not even gotten to the dog days of winter yet... Lol
Mild weather on its way :thumbsup:


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> As long as my math is correct; with those proportions, Ca ratio of 1:2.7.
> 
> 
> So you ask "why the Vit C?" Good question, other than the obvious benefits to us, assuming those same benefits transfer... Everything I read suggest "vit C in sup may be beneficial" but I'm wondering if the pH adjustment is the beneficial outcome... :thumbsup:


Do you have the raw values for each ingredient? Working off your 1:2.7 value, and assuming your suggested 1:2 requirement, P is out of balance? Why is this important? In feeds we want to meet minimal dietary requirements, but in the case of Ca there is also an interaction occurring that effects the utilization and absorption of each nutrient. P is a concern because excess P in animal waste presents runoff issues. We balance it to ensure minimal requirements are met taking into account the interaction and the availability of the P source.

There are only a handful of species that cannot synthesize their own Vit C. Humans are one of those species, so Vit C gets a lot of attention in our diets. Honey bees appear to be in the majority in that they are able to synthesize Vit C from dietary precursors.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I wonder _what specific ingredient_ of that tea makes the bees recover. And if _that_ could be put into a patty recipe.


...is, what I wrote. 

Nettle nutrient contents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urtica_dioica#Nutrient_contents

Also interesting: "needle that can inject several chemicals: acetylcholine, histamine, 5-HT (serotonin), moroidin, leukotrienes,and possibly formic acid."

Some of them can be found in bee venom, too.


----------



## RAK

JSL said:


> Ian, why the vit C?


Vitamin C helps with drone fertility but that's about all I can think of. If your using Juice to lower pH, try using citric acid. Cheaper and you don't have the unnecessary moisture.


----------



## Ian

Joe ... Ya ya ya, but that's not what I'm asking... "Your" supplement pre mix is addressing what exactly in my patty mix?? I'm asking what do you base "your" requirements off... Not mine ...

.. anyway I appreciate your input thus far Joe, I'm sure you've got a blend which works, I hear of others using it and I'm sure it's promoting better health. best of luck in 2016 :thumbsup:


----------



## Ian

RAK said:


> Vitamin C helps with drone fertility but that's about all I can think of. If your using Juice to lower pH, try using citric acid. Cheaper and you don't have the unnecessary moisture.


I read a studdy which they figured vit C supplement increased the immune systems of the brood... But I don't know. Also suggestion that it increased consumption


----------



## Mbeck

These?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24477034/

https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_mellifera_carnica_brood_at_different_stages

http://www.bijenhouders.nl/files/Bi...eider Carlsheim 2010 nutrition and health.pdf


----------



## Ian

Ya the first two links is what I read


----------



## Mbeck

I thought the part about confined bee losses would be of particular interest to you.


----------



## Ian

I missed the confined bee losses part, can you point me towar


----------



## Mbeck

Sorry

It's this one

https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_mellifera_carnica_brood_at_different_stages


----------



## Mbeck

No It's this one, I didn't post it originally

https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00890666/document


----------



## Ian

Mbeck said:


> No It's this one, I didn't post it originally
> 
> https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00890666/document


I missed that studdy, interesting indeed, thanks for sharing. It re enforces what Joe suggested. 

This is all I'm looking for. Points of interest to help understand what's going on :thumbsup:


----------



## Ian

I've also been skimming over some studies sent to me by a fellow beesource contributor in regards to vitamin K... 
My patty shows a value of 1.4 mcg /100g 
Is this low, is this high, adequate ?


----------



## Mbeck

This has some limited information on 

Ca/p
K

They site some studies mention of ascorbic acid perhaps that's why it's found in addition to citric acid in some recipes.


----------



## Ian

Got the mail today, Joe's vit min premix samples have arrived! Thanks for the samples Joe :thumbsup:
BUT... 
this has wet my appetite again, Joe, if at all possible, approach my inquiries from a different angle. Enlighten me without giving out your trade secrets


----------



## Ian

...also comment on how to improve my supplement fat profile


----------



## JSL

Ian, glad to hear the samples arrived. The easy one... I think the fat profile on you patty looked pretty good. The eggs account for most of it, and you add a little oil. We prefer corn oil as it gives the most bang for your buck in terms of essential fatty acids.

It has been a little while, but I think you were asking about how we determined the values for the diet...? A little background info. My dad is a research nutritionist. He spent 40 years at Ohio State, teaching, publishing, co-authoring nutrition guides, editing nutrition journals and spent a great deal of time working on nutrient deficiency type projects. I share this because he brings expertise I could not afford to hire. 

We started from scratch to determine pollen nutritional profiles by analyzing composite pollen samples, just trying to find an average baseline value for nutrients. Then we started teasing apart the individual nutrients and running feeding trials. Some nutrients were more closely analyzed than others. It is an ongoing project. Each answer creates new questions. We apply the methodology used in the animal industry to honey bees. 

I don't think there is one perfect diet, but rather the most cost effective diet based on the materials that are regionally available. Feeding has to make financial sense too.


----------



## Ian

If I were to add a corn based flour to my mix, is that going to throw off your vit min formulation for my patty mix? 

Does your pre mix address Inositol Vit B? 

Also should I be testing my patty pH? If so what pH am I wanting to adjust it too ?


----------



## PeterP

FYI, in my search for a source for dried egg I came across this company in Toronto. I haven't talk to them but they have a nice sheet on nutritional values for dried egg. 

http://www.interspancanada.com/foods/Dried egg Nutritional.pdf

Regards Peter


----------



## Ian

Nice 
Thanks


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> If I were to add a corn based flour to my mix, is that going to throw off your vit min formulation for my patty mix?
> 
> Does your pre mix address Inositol Vit B?
> 
> Also should I be testing my patty pH? If so what pH am I wanting to adjust it too ?


Corn flour or isolate? Either works well as the bees are attracted to the material. If you are not changing your formulation much, I would not worry about it.

The premix does not supplement Inositol. Look at your egg and soy products.

The only benefit we found for adjusting pH was for preservation and you already have other ingredients that help with that.


----------



## Ian

Do you see any benefit of having the lemon juice in?


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> Do you see any benefit of having the lemon juice in?


Nutritionally, no. I think may contribute somewhat to the odor/attractiveness of the patty just based on the odor compounds.


----------



## Ian

Can you tell me about your feed stimulant?


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> Can you tell me about your feed stimulant?


As a grad student, some of my projects dealt with olfactory learning. Like other organisms, bees rely on smell and taste to locate food. In my opinion, bees are a little trickier in the sense that they are not confined. When developing a diet for bees, we can work out the nutritional side, but if the food doesn't taste and smell good the bees may find alternatives. In short, the feeding stimulant if formulated to mimic some of the key odorants found in pollen samples that are attractive to bees. It is just another piece of the puzzle...


----------



## Ian

Are there ingredients in my patty mix that exhibit any sort of "turn offs"? Or are there any ingredients in my patty mix that might work against the feed stimulant you provided? 

For example, the table spoon of HBH I add to keep the patty smelling nice to work with.?


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> For example, the table spoon of HBH I add to keep the patty smelling nice to work with.?


I would use one or the other.


----------



## davidsbees

Ian in my protein pattie I use liquid lecithin which is 40% soy oil 60% lecithin, lecithin is very high in choline and inositol which help to prolong brood rearing. The liquid also help to keep the pattie moist. I've also decided to have a specialty feed mill mix my feed with stock ingredients so they are all way fresh instead of warehouse semi loads to get the best price and have them sit around. I've worked nutritionist from land-o-lakes and ADM to come with the profile I'm using. I also use pepermit,lemongrass and anisee EO'S as feed stimulant.


----------



## Ian

Thanks David

Another thread briefly mentioned inositol, reason I asked. 

I think I'm getting what I need through the soy and dried egg, how much liquid lecithin would I need to supplement that up to what's needed?


----------



## Ian

David 
Do you have a good nutritional information sheet for Brewers yeast and soy flour I could refer off of?


----------



## Ian

.... Another question; what's the difference nutritionally between dried egg and raw egg?


----------



## davidsbees

Every profile on Brewers yeast is different so you need get it for the yeast you are using. As for inositol I went off a old study on prolonging brood rearing and used the values that preformed the best. That means the addition of pure inositol in addition to the current inputs.


----------



## Ian

Lol
Geesh guys


----------



## Keith Jarrett

davidsbees said:


> I've also decided to have a specialty feed mill mix my feed with stock ingredients so they are all way fresh instead of warehouse semi loads to get the best price and have them sit around.


David, I looked at this the other way. I buy straight from the source (yeast ect..) in semi load lots, store in my cold storage warehouse and use, we turn over on avg about every two months and have full control of how its stored, dry & finished product. This in my opinion is as fresh as it gets. I have never seen custom feed milling have cold storage for there products, I could be wrong, but all the ones I visited down the central valley of Cali none had cold storage for there products.


----------



## davidsbees

Keith your right they don't have cold storage they don't need it doesn't stay around long enough to get old. When I pick up my order there are a dozen truck in front of picking up finished product. They service the west coast and pacific rim.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

A lot of ingredients lets say from ADM or Cargrill supplies are guarantee for three years for the C of A if kept cool. I don't think anybody comes even close to keeping there supplies that time line but the point I'm trying to make is they guarantee it. I think to make the point that if kept in the right conditions it's fine for a month or two.
The one thing I would be concern with on a short time frame ordering is availability.


----------



## davidsbees

Ian, I found a couple typical analysis I'll e-mail you.


----------



## Ian

davidsbees said:


> Ian, I found a couple typical analysis I'll e-mail you.


Thank you David!


----------



## Ian

Hey David
What's your take on fats in your supplement ?

Keith, that line is strung out to you too!


Someone told me they don't like my eggs... 
I thought I was onto something with eggs!


----------



## davidsbees

Ian
I run about 8% fat coconut, canola, corn and lecithin/soy. I also have dry whole egg. And citric acid to bring the ph down. When I buy dog food, koi food or bee feed I want to know what's in it. It's the proportions that are proprietary.


----------



## Ian

David What pH are you targeting and why?


----------



## davidsbees

About 4.4 I've check honey and beebread and they're low if not lower.


----------



## JSL

The acidity part puzzles me... Honey and bee bread can be slightly acidic, but fresh pollen is mildly alkaline. I have not seen a nutritional benefit from acidifying supplements other than the benefits of food preservation.


----------



## davidsbees

With average PH of honey 3.9 (Google honeybee suite) eats through concrete floors with the greatest of easy and chomps into galvanized sheet metal and turns epoxy floors into jelly, that's only slightly acidic ? You answered the first part of the question with the second part. Just trying to get the protein supplement similar to what is all ready in the hive (bee bread PH 4.1 Mattila at el) And who likes growing unintended science experiments.


----------



## Ian

So the bee bread is going through a lactic acid fermentation process to help preserve its nutrients, it also create a more favourable micro flora environment in the bees digestive tract. 
I guess this is what I'm trying to promote with the lemon juice. Plus the added Vit C.

David, How do you buy your citric acid?


----------



## JSL

Yes, slightly acidic otherwise it would not be palatable... We consume beverages that are more acidic.

Bees preferentially consume fresh pollen. With pollen patties, other ingredients such as fructose or essential oils serve as preservatives. So I guess my question is the acidity an intentional result or simply a passive result? Beekeepers seem to have latched on to the concept that if the bees do it, then we should do it too, but again there does not appear to be a nutritional benefit.


----------



## davidsbees

Ian, I get it at the local Ag supply in 50 lbs bags food grade and kosher. About $76 US


----------



## davidsbees

Hi Joe, If honey @ 3.4 PH is only slightly acidic then my protein pattie @ 4.4 is 10 times less acidic, so less than slightly acidic. No sure where problem is. Times of the year where we have a ample supply natural pollen can be measured in weeks so supplemention is a must. not had any issues with consumption. I think a moldy sandwich would be less nutritious/healthful then one kept fresh. I've purchased dry supplement mixed according directions added EO'S and got moldy 3 days. Added citric acid to fix the problem. 
David


----------



## JSL

David, thanks for the explanation. Just so my understanding is clear, is your sole reason for using citric acid to provide a preservative? If that is the case, I get that. But what I do not understand is why some state the lower acidity improves nutrition.


----------



## davidsbees

Yes preservation but on the same note you can strech it to say less microbial action less consumption of nutrients. I guess the thought on beebread is a moving target.


----------



## Ian

aka purely mimicking not knowing


----------



## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> But what I do not understand is why some state the lower acidity improves nutrition.


Joe, who was claiming that ?


----------



## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> Joe, who was claiming that ?


Don't attack the conversation Keith


----------



## JSL

Keith Jarrett said:


> Joe, who was claiming that ?



Keith, I wasn't sure if that was what David was stating, which is why I asked. In discussions with other beekeepers they allude to that gray area, so I try to clarify what it actually means.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> Don't attack the conversation Keith


Sorry for asking a question....  no attack intended.


----------



## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> Sorry for asking a question....  no attack intended.


You know what you are doing


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Me thinks when looking at pollen sub, look at it as a HEALTH BAR, not a protein patty.


----------



## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> Me thinks when looking at pollen sub, look at it as a HEALTH BAR, not a protein patty.


That's better 👍


----------



## Ian

when I mix mine up I'll test the pH, 
At least now I have a better idea why I'm adjusting the pH
Thanks


----------



## JSL

Keith Jarrett said:


> Me thinks when looking at pollen sub, look at it as a HEALTH BAR, not a protein patty.


Perhaps more than a health bar, but rather a complete diet. Countless generations of livestock can be raised in confinement on a complete ration. I don't see why we cannot do this with honey bees. They are little more challenging in the sense that they are free flying... 

We have been unseasonably warm here. 60 degrees today and my chicken feeders were full of bees! The chickens were none too pleased!


----------



## Ian

Setting soy out, first flight is one of my favourite times of the year.... Can't wait !


----------



## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> Perhaps more than a health bar, but rather a complete diet.


Joe, a health bar is the complete diet.


----------



## Ian

Joe, about that stimulant you send me, what kind of results are you finding from adding it? Consumption rate increase ? Will it help me cut the sugars ?


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> Joe, about that stimulant you send me, what kind of results are you finding from adding it? Consumption rate increase ? Will it help me cut the sugars ?


Ian, I am not certain with your diet as I have not run the stimulant in it. In a simple diet, we still see single digit increases. It is just another piece of the pie...

Why would you like to cut the sugar content? It is another great feeding stimulant for the bees!

The other day, I was mixing up some dry sub batches in the shop, it was only about 40 degrees and sunny. I had the doors open and the bees were coming in to investigate the sub with the feeding stimulant. 

Here is an idea for you. Instead of just setting out soy, mix up a batch of your mix with the dry ingredients, premix, dry sugar, oil and stimulant and set it out. The bees will have fun with that. Make sure it is well mixed. Combine the yeast sugar, and premix and mix well, then add the oil and mix well. Then the soy, pollen and whatever else you want.


----------



## Ian

I'll run some flour mix with your stimulant mixed in this spring in a few open feeders. 
I'm going to need more premix , lol


----------



## Ian

A beekeeper sent me a pic of a mixer used to mix up small batches of dry ingredients, AND to add the stimulant by the use of a spritzer while running. 
Great idea! Thx


----------



## grozzie2

JSL said:


> Yes, slightly acidic otherwise it would not be palatable...


I have pondered this part of the equation for some time. I know it's a mistake to project our own experiences onto that of the bees, but, I often wonder about an analogy, and try to understand how this applies to supplement feeding for the bees, or if it applies at all.

We have a garden beside the house, grow all sorts of good stuff in there, which we know is good healthy food. But if I take 3lb of cabbage with a pound of carrots, run it thru the shredder and mix up in a bowl, then set that down on the dinner table, not a lot will get eaten. I can modify it a bit, mix 1/4 cup vinegar with 1/2 cup mayo, 1/3 cup sugar and some celery seeds, let it sit for a bit, then stir that into the mix, it suddenly becomes a 'fresh cole slaw', and not a scrap will be left when I set that down for dinner guests. Now, if I take the concoction to the lab, and get an analysis done, the results will come back with a list of the basic ingredients. The list will look like this. 1 egg, some canola oil (mayo), vinegar, sugar, celery seed, 1 lb carrots and 3lb cabbage. If I take all of those constituent ingredients, throw them into the vitamix blender and mix it well, I'll get a slurry that I can pour into glasses. I'm pretty sure if I serve that slurry at the same dinner table, it wont get a positive reaction, even tho it's the exact same nutritional profile. The reason is, the presentation is just awful, and the flavours will not be developed the way they were when I made the cole slaw. But, there is a segment of our society today that will devour the stuff, and it's not hard to find them, just head down to the gym in a larger metropolitan area and you will find a subgroup of folks that live on energy bars, protein shakes and vitamin supplements, it's the bulk of their food intake.

Last spring, after endless reading here on beesource, and taking a lot of valuable information from the folks here in the commercial section, I started a targetted spring feeding program for our bees. I was pretty chuffed when I posted the final results, measured at the extractor gate after our first round of extracting. It was mission accomplished. Last year was year 2 of a 5 year plan for taking our little plot from wasteland to productive property, and the major milestone for year 2 was to get the BC Assessment Authority to agree, we are now legally a farm for tax purposes. I took endless notes along the way, so I would have info to refer back on as we analyze what does, and what does not work.

Wind the clock forward, and the bees have started brooding here this year, so last week I made up the first round of patties to go onto hives. This weekend, I started popping lids to see how they were taking those patties. This is where those notes came in very handy. Most of the colonies have consumed a little, but, one in particular, has devoured the patties. Checking back in my notes, it turns out, on the first round of feed we saw essentially the same thing last year, most of the colonies had started into them, but one in particular had devoured them. It's the same box of bees this year that has devoured the patties. Last year that box was our star during the spring build. It's helpful to not have so many colonies we can still track them individually when realizing this kind of detail.

This gets me pondering what may be a really dumb question. There are folks here that swear up and down that one specific recipe is superior to others, and, have many many boxes of bees built strong and early to demonstrate. But I wonder if this is a chicken and egg type of thing. Are the bees building really strong on that specific supplement because it's really better than any of the other options ? Or, over time, has selection occurred that favours those bees that devour the supplement ? That selection process could well be accidental or unintentional, just a side effect of propogating from the strongest of the bunch. If you have a bunch of bees that find the supplements palatable, they will end up looking better at your targetted dates, compared to boxes of bees that dont find the feed palatable, so they dont consume it as much.

Thru this thread, and a few others here, Ian has been on the endless quest to find the 'perfect' feed mix for his bees. Cant help but wonder, is this going about the whole thing backwards. You have a recipe that meets the nutritional requirements. Should the focus be instead on shifting the stock toward the lines that thrive best on that feed mix ? Is this a chicken problem, or an egg problem you are trying to solve ?


----------



## Ian

Good question G,

Just for kicks, take a look inside they hive devouring the patty and look to see how much brood is being started , and compare it to the other few. Is the difference your seeing in consumption a fact of brood rearing between colonies? 

I hear what your saying about palatability


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> A beekeeper sent me a pic of a mixer used to mix up small batches of dry ingredients, AND to add the stimulant by the use of a spritzer while running.


I do the same here Ian, just with a little bigger mixer.


----------



## Mbeck

Keith Jarrett said:


> I do the same here Ian, just with a little bigger mixer.


We could take your word for it or you could post a photo of the equipment in use as each ingredient is added. Don't forget to tell us which formula we are watching being made.


:lookout:


----------



## Keith Jarrett

lol..... I like your humor MBeck, well said. Well I don't have a pic handy, but it mixes 10,000lb a batch.


----------



## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> I do the same here Ian, just with a little bigger mixer.


Little bigger, ha , 10,000 lbs batch! Sounds like our mix wagon


----------



## Ian

Right now I use my low speed drill and mortar mixer ...


----------



## JSL

Grozzie2,

You are correct. There is a very basic relationship, genotype + environment = phenotype which summarizes what you describe. Beekeepers can select strains that are more broody/responsive to beekeeper inputs. However, there is generally a trade off. The broodier strains are generally not as good at managing their stores and production, although this is a broad generalization. I see this in the US. The broodier strains may serve package producers very well, but may not be the best honey producers or best bee for more northern beekeepers. The broodier strains also tend to be more susceptible to Varroa due to their longer brood rearing period. The goal is to find a happy medium and match the type of bee with the beekeeper and their management style. This is why I thing nutrition and genetics are so closely linked!


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Mbeck said:


> could post a photo of the equipment in use


http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/20160203_120324_resized_zpskztzuxjl.jpg


----------



## Barry

Shoot, Keith, here I thought you were using a good mixer!


----------



## Mbeck

That's a dandy Keith!

Its guess it's only fair









I hope you will of course understand why I can't divulge any further details. ( I've spent literally hours developing stolen bad ideas from the Internet)


----------



## Ian

Hey who's bad ideas?? ....


----------



## rainesridgefarm

How much of this is being consumed vs hauled out of the hive and disposed of by the bees?


----------



## Keith Jarrett

RRF, which post are you referring too ?


----------



## Ian

rainesridgefarm said:


> How much of this is being consumed vs hauled out of the hive and disposed of by the bees?


No piles infront of my hives.


----------



## rainesridgefarm

The consumption level of different hives. i have noticed some hives will eat it and some will haul it out. I would like to know why?


----------



## Matt Beekman

This has been A great thread; thanks to all of those who have made great posts. Specifically in terms of getting the amino acid profile correct, I wonder if we are way over thinking pollen patties. We do know that brewers yeast does contain all of the required amino acids, just not in the right proportions. As a result, soy flour or soy protein isolate is added to account for those inadequacies. 

But if the goal is to only provide a pollen SUPPLEMENT, perhaps brewers is all that is necessary. So what if you don't get the maximum amount of the protein utilization? I ask this because I know of a very successful beekeeper that is in the business of selling large quantities of bees who just feeds pollen patties made of brewers. As long as the bees get the quantity of protein they need are the additional ingredients necessary?


----------



## JSL

Hey Matt!

I look at it this way. If I was starving and someone offered me a peanut butter sandwich, I certainly wouldn't turn it down! I am sure it would taste really good! But what would happen if I then had to put in a full days work and all I had was peanut butter sandwiches, for weeks, months on end? 

Short term, yeast is better than nothing, but long term under demanding conditions such as brood rearing, yeast alone will not get very far. Now if yeast is simply supplementing natural pollen it will stretch a little farther, but there are better options.

It is not just the amino acids that are a concern. Sorry, another metaphor... Imagine you are building trucks in a plant. Parts come into the plant but only fully built trucks roll out, no exceptions. Imagine you are getting a hodge podge of parts and can just barely scrape together enough parts for a couple of complete trucks each day to roll out. What happens to the back log of parts and partially built trucks backing up in the factory? At some point, something has to give.


----------



## Ian

Well, you start tossing all the extra parts in the garbage to make room for the new parts coming in. What a waste of resources which increases the cost of the trucks going out !


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> Well, you start tossing all the extra parts in the garbage to make room for the new parts coming in. What a waste of resources which increases the cost of the trucks going out !


Ian, it can be worse than that in a biological sense because they can't even get it to the garbage department! This is where toxicity issues come into play in extreme cases. Look at it another way, malnourishment results in a build up of excess nutrients that cannot be utilized because other essential nutrients are lacking, so they simply shut down all part shipments coming in and the plant slowly shuts down truck manufacturing...


----------



## zhiv9

JSL said:


> At some point, something has to give.


From RO's writings, this is basically it. The colony makes up the for the deficiencies the best they can. The better the sub, the longer they can do it. A little natural pollen helps a lot.


----------



## Ian

JSL said:


> This is where toxicity issues come into play in extreme cases. )


So on a straight Brewers yeast diet, where would the build up be to become toxic? 
Would not the excess be shed off in waste?

I'll have to hunt for it, but it read exponential increased volumes needed to be consumed to satisfy a bee diet lacking in one EAA of a low protein pollen. Made that lacking pollen look like a waste of good resource


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Matt Beekman said:


> But if the goal is to only provide a pollen SUPPLEMENT, perhaps brewers is all that is necessary. So what if you don't get the maximum amount of the protein utilization? I ask this because I know of a very successful beekeeper that is in the business of selling large quantities of bees who just feeds pollen patties made of brewers.


Matt, I think a measure of success is........ I will use a little of Joe's "trucks"........ If we have 2000 hives too move, what size of truck? do we go with the 550's or ten wheeler. The point I'm trying to make here is I would go with the most efficient method, not always the cheapest but the most value. Lots of northern Calif queen keepers say it's worth feeding the "good stuff" verses straight brewers yeast, In fact there a local keeper in there back yard that sells brewTech.
just my 2 cents worth.


----------



## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> just my 2 cents worth.


Um... I'm looking for my dollars worth ...


----------



## Ian

Matt , are you feeding Brewers yeast?


----------



## davidsbees

Not all Brewers yeast are created equal. I was talking with a company that raised fruit flies they were looking to save money so they tried a much cheaper ethanol based yeast only problem they could not raises flies and ended up going back to the higher quality yeast. Brewtec has been my yeast of choice. Less bitter and has a fresh yeast aroma, roller dried. I feel yeast from food based products would be preferred. A lot of yeast products have come and gone.


----------



## JSL

Ian said:


> So on a straight Brewers yeast diet, where would the build up be to become toxic?
> Would not the excess be shed off in waste?
> 
> I'll have to hunt for it, but it read exponential increased volumes needed to be consumed to satisfy a bee diet lacking in one EAA of a low protein pollen. Made that lacking pollen look like a waste of good resource


Ian, take your pick... I used the parts analogy and your response was the typical response I would have expected, no offense intended.  With slight imbalances, excess nutrients can usually be handled as waste. When the imbalances are more pronounced it creates another challenge, where to go with all of the excess parts while they sort things out and try to find a complete "truck" in all that mess. They can't simply increase consumption, because eventually there is no where to put the excess... I realize it seems counter intuitive, but animals fed free choice improper diets actually starve to death. After a point, they simply go off feed, because their body cannot deal with the backlog of improper nutrients.


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## JSL

davidsbees said:


> Not all Brewers yeast are created equal.


I agree with David, you have to look at spec sheets!


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## Ian

Joe, Matt is asking about yeast and your talking about nutrient toxicity. With the purpose of what we are doing with our supplemental feed, I'm thinking nutrient toxicity from feeding yeast to bees a far ways away from our concerns. 
I understand what your saying... We call it protein poisoning, should we be concerned about this feeding straight Brewers yeast?


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## Ian

I agree with Matt, I've enjoyed this conversation, I've also enjoyed getting poked in PM because of my off base comments or questions. Not all of them are off base you know..


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## JSL

Ian said:


> Joe, Matt is asking about yeast and your talking about nutrient toxicity. With the purpose of what we are doing with our supplemental feed, I'm thinking nutrient toxicity from feeding yeast to bees a far ways away from our concerns.
> I understand what your saying... We call it protein poisoning, should we be concerned about this feeding straight Brewers yeast?


Ian, I used the truck building analogy, because I think most can visualize how a truck is the sum of many parts, just as a complete and balanced diet is the sum of many nutrients. I also think most can visualize the problems that would arise by too many or too few of any given part or parts flowing into a factory. The goal is to match input with demand/output, just as with a nutritional diet. In a diet, too little or too much of something has a real consequence. Sometimes the consequence is minimal, sometimes it is serious.

Matt's question about yeast falls in this realm. Sure it can be fed just as is. Yeast is roughly 50% protein, but what about the other 50% of the material. We can increase/supplement some nutrient levels, but how do we take away excess nutrient levels? They don't just disappear when fed, they have to be accounted for or dealt with somehow. I do not know how the yeast is ultimately being fed and if there is any natural pollen available. My assumption is the yeast is being mixed into a patty and the overall protein level is being reduced as are other nutrients.


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## Ian

I love the truck building analogy. Excess parts laying around are easy to dump, but the partially built trucks and the back log of partially built or incomplete trucks cause the trouble. 

Have you ever set up hives on Buckwheat? I do, one year they were bringing in loads of buckwheat pollen, nothing else around. That yard fell apart later that fall. "Where's my winter clusters!! "


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## JSL

Here is an interesting thought, or at least it is to me... My dad and I were having a conversation about feed consumption rates, specifically in a growth situation. Since his specialty is animal nutrition, I asked about broiler chickens. They are probably the fastest growing and most feed efficient. So a 5# bird at roughly 35-40 days of age consumes about 0.25# of feed a day. Their feed conversion ratio is roughly 2:1, so for every 2# feed consumed, they average a pound of gain in body weight. My interest was how would honey bees compare? What is the average biomass/body weight of an average colony in the peak of spring? This would include brood and bees. How much feed would they consume a day?


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## Ian

I'd love to hear the answer to that one!

Cattle are roughly 10-15 to 1. Ruminants eat a lot of roughage


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## Roland

Maybe you need a correction factor, or compare Kg of protein in to Kg of animal mass gained.

Crazy Roland


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## BernhardHeuvel

Citation:
"Haydak23 showed that groups of bees without access to pollen used 3.21 mg of their body nitrogen to rear one worker. If we assume a nitrogen to protein conversion factor of 6.25, a pollen protein content of 20% and a digestive efficiency of 80%58 this would be equivalent to about 125 mg of pollen per individual (note that the two different nitrogen to protein conversion factors used in this section result from differences in the nitrogen content between pollen and animal protein54).

More accurate estimates of the protein requirement of larvae can be obtained by examining their nitrogen content. Pupae and newly emerged adults contained between 1.73 and 1.87 mg of nitrogen.22–24,29 This would indicate a consumption of 68–73 mg of pollen per worker larva, if we assume the same conversion factors as above. This estimate will be somewhat too low because the animals defecate before pupation. Consequently, the nitrogen content of larvae will be higher than that of pupae or emerging adults. Indeed, the feeding experiments of Alfonsus1 and Haydak23 indicated that the amount of pollen needed could be twice the amount mentioned above.

The average nitrogen content of workers without the intestinal tract increased by 0.86 mg during the first five days after emerging (from 1.74 to 2.60 mg N), that of whole bees by 1.27 mg (from 1.98 to 3.25 mg N).22 After the fifth day, no further increase in worker nitrogen content was observed.22 If we assume that, on average, the nitrogen content per bee increases during the first five days after emergence by about 1 mg and if we apply the same conversion factors as above, 39 mg of pollen are required for one worker. Adding this amount of pollen to the 125 to 140 mg that are needed to rear one worker,1,23 *approximately 160 to 180 mg are required for the nutrition of one worker bee during its entire life*. Based on estimates of the yearly pollen supply, pollen protein content and number of brood cells in 59 colonies, Wille & Imdorf72 found that c. *180 mg of pollen were needed to rear one bee*, which would be in good agreement with the requirements estimated above. In central European regions healthy colonies without brood interruptions raise about 100 000 to 200 000 bees per year.75 Consequently, about 17 to 34 kg of pollen may be required per colony and year."
extracted from: http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/alkhazim/Documents/Books/استعراض تغذية نحل1.pdf

Part II: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.318.7361&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Part II is interesting as well. 

Cite:
"During winter, honey bee colonies may use their honey and pollen stores to rear small amounts of brood 25. Even in non-breeding colonies, the overwintering animals will consume and digest small quantities of pollen 5. These observations indicate that the size of a colony in spring might, to some extent, be influenced by the availability of pollen to the overwintering animals. Indeed, Farrar 13 found that the size of the spring population expressed as a percentage of the fall population was positively correlated with the extent of the pollen stores. Colonies with larger pollen reserves also grew faster in spring and produced more honey during the first nectar flow period. However, due to the lack of further studies the generality of these findings is unknown."


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## JSL

Bernhard,

Thanks for the posting! Those were some of the numbers that led to our discussion. The 17-34kg per colony/year seemed low to me, just on a rough estimate basis. It is such a hard number to quantify! If I am remembering correctly, the highest estimate was 80# of pollen per colony/year right in line with the 34kg. Even that just seems low. Some colonies are massive and have prolonged brood rearing. Just thinking out loud...


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## m_pchelari

Hi,
Very interesting discussion. Thanks for sharing thoughts and info.
Have you read this: http://www.bee-hexagon.net
http://www.bee-hexagon.net/files/file/fileE/Health/PollenBook2Review.pdf
A small bulgarian contribution to pollen science.


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## Ian

A few weeks out and onto the fourth lbs. I'm happy with the consumption and especially happy with my brood nest. Consumption slowed during the beginning of the pollen flow but the patties disappear with weather interruptions. Not bad for stock supplement. 


All day long


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## beepro

The cap broods look good enough but a bit shy of the entire frame.
But that is what they make anyways. I see carnis genetics influence mainly.
I got my brewer's yeast today. And ready to make some for the coming summer dearth.
I don't know what else to buy for making the patty sub supplement. 
What is your secret stock supplement ingredients and recipe?


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## Ian

bit shy of a full frame..? Lol, What?
This is Canada after all, we count these as one

beepro see page 1 comment 1, and then next 14 pages... stock ingredients, off the shelf


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## beepro

Because I can graft my own queens I take full advantage of
getting the breeder potential queens to head my production hives.
The ones not up to par I will sell them locally. I'm a bit picky so over
here we have a diverse gene pool to choose from. I use the Cordovan/Italians a lot
mated with whatever feral bees and the carnis drones from the local bee association out there. 
The result is an excellent potential breeder queen. Even then I have to reevaluate them on the next Spring. 
The ones with the most broods covering the frames without much pollen and honey along with a good disposition
and a gentle attitude will be on the top of my list. The ones that go through their winter honey stores fastest also
will be weeded out. I like bees that leave me something just before the Spring flow starts because I
want my honey too. I will go through post #1 to see if I can mix something with the brewer's yeast. Thanks for the
infos.


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## Ian

>>the ones not up to par I will sell them locally<<

Quite the sales pitch


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## clyderoad

Ian said:


> bit shy of a full frame..? Lol, What?
> This is Canada after all, we count these as one


Not only is it a bit shy of full but there is also 6 drone cells on that frame face.


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## Ian

I had a couple yards shut down too early late summer due to a protein dearth in the area (which I caught in time). We mixed up a pound of my patty mix and splashed some syrup to spark those queens up again for one last round before fall. It has worked very well. The patty has translated directly into brood and the hives now sit as a young winter nest.

This protein supplement project worked out exactly as I've intended it to. Sitting on the shelf dry in cold storage until needed. Mix up what's needed at a drop of a hat decision and get them fed.


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## beepro

Dups!


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## beepro

I have always kept my dry ingredients separated all these years. Only mixed them
up when needed to. Good idea on mixing them together a head of time. 
Makes it easy to put on an emergency batch to feed them. Good idea here!


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## Ian

I keep the ingredients in cold storage in dry form. I mixed them up as needed this fall. 
Next year I plan on preparing the patties a month ahead of time during the slow period before the honey pull and keep the patties either in cold storage or frozen until needed. It will help me manage my late season work load a bit better.


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## beepro

Do the yellow clover overwinter in your fields? 
Or you need to broadcast the seeds again early Spring time.


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## Ian

Yellow clover is forever. One seed grows hundreds. It grows as a bi annual, pasture management needs to be rotated, ditches can't be sprayed


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## beepro

I've read on the label that the similar white clover, a cousin of the yellow, will bloom
later after the yellow. They are an annual and will reseed also. Have you have such an
experience with the white or have plan to try some too?


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## Ian




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## zhiv9

Ian said:


> I had a couple yards shut down too early late summer due to a protein dearth in the area (which I caught in time). We mixed up a pound of my patty mix and splashed some syrup to spark those queens up again for one last round before fall. It has worked very well. The patty has translated directly into brood and the hives now sit as a young winter nest.
> 
> This protein supplement project worked out exactly as I've intended it to. Sitting on the shelf dry in cold storage until needed. Mix up what's needed at a drop of a hat decision and get them fed.


I had a similar issue with yard and wish I caught it a little earlier. They consumed the patties in less than a week even with a little aster pollen still coming in. I struggled with how much syrup to feed them at the same time. I ended up putting out a barrel for 25 colonies because it worked with my schedule, but that may have been too much feed at once and restricted the available brood area. How did you feed your "splash" of syrup?


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## Ian

Fill the open feeder with less and fill more often. Or, in areas where neighbours are closer, I'll fill or half fill gallon feeders, refill as needed .


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## Ian

It's a fine balance between starvation, feed on hand and plugged. Sometimes providing space uptop, to be robbed out later is needed


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## homegrown

Keith, I watched your latest thanksgiving video. Very impressive. What is the mite treatment on the bottom board? Amitraz/vegetable oil mix? Looked like a piece of cardboard just inside of the entrance. Thanks


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## Z-B

How do you shape and squish your patty for placement? Or do you just put a chunk on and then close it up?


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