# Gargantuan Brood Chamber, size comparisons



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Oliver aka odfrank . . .

Did YOU paint the large frames white?


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## betrbekepn (Aug 7, 2006)

Nice Pic Odfrank!

>1/2" thick end bars
Why so thick? 

>a screened bottom board made with Trex
What's Trex?

Let us know how your IPM hive performs compared the other hive. Later

[ January 04, 2007, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: betrbekepn ]


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

No paint, same color as the new Dadant 9 1/8" frame, the flash makes them look whiter. The yellowish Jumbo and the medium are used and pressure washed. 
The end bars need to be thick to limit bowing due to wire tension. I was just re-wiring some of the 11 1/4" frames today, and they bow in real easy at about 5/16" thickness, when they are that long. The 17 3/4" frames are showing almost no bowing.
Trex is a composite lumber made of wood chips and plastic,

[ January 04, 2007, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Oliver aka odfrank ]


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

that's a big honkin frame Frank








they appear to be taller than the box behind them
is that an optical discombobulation?

Dave

(the Trex is a killer idea)


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

The frames are 17 3/4" and the box is 18 1/4". I had planned for two 8 1/2" sheets of foundation to fill the frame but I ended up with about 1/4" of slop, maybe due to extra deep top and bottom slots.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Oliver aka odfrank . . .

>maybe due to extra deep top and bottom slots . . .

According to Ref 12, p545, Top bar groove should be 5/16" (.312) deep and bottom bar 9/32" (.281) deep. Last night I checked a production sample of the frames I made for you, and found the TB groove to be 5/16" (.312) deep, but the BB measured 1/4 (.250). Actually the BB is a little shallow (.031)









While checking, I measured bottom to bottom of groves in an assembled frame to be EXACTLY 17".

Did you check your foundation size?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I will check all measurements. It will work either ways, the question is gap at the top, gap in the middle or gap at the bottom. Probably I will leave the gap at the top, and maybe splice in a strip there, as if the bees care.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Your Chiropractor will love these.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

My next project is a pallet to fit the two hives side by side. I own two Bobcats with forklifts and a debris box truck that can lift four tons off the ground. The question is, will I be able to lift the frames full of honey.....


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## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

Hi odfrank, any updates on the special size brood chamber? I would like to see it do great! really like the idea


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I'm a little confused, moreso after spending several decades
saying "*friends don't let friends lift deeps*".

Why so big?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*1/2 report*

On the large cell box, poor progress as of yesterday. The 6/06 Weaver Allstar I set on top is like many hives here, a small useless cluster. It did not move down onto the big combs, yesterday in the old box it had only four of 12 frames with brood, the queen looked listless. I put it back nto a nuc box, will move it away, and hope for a big swarm to throw onto the gargantuan frames.
Now, the small cell hive, also a 6/06 Weaver Allstar, is so vicious that I can only work it late on Saturday afternoons because it is only about 20 feet away from a public sidewalk which is only quiet on Sundays. I might look at it today and see if they have moved down. It is very active and I have hopes that it has. I will try to get the queen isolated down into the garagantuan box, and pull off some of the old combs which I need for my bait boxes. 
It is one of two of six small cells that I had this fall that is thriving. Four out of six died in the same manner the large cell hives did.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

What is the rationale of a gargantuan brood nest? It seems a direction opposite of the general trend these days- 8 frame boxes, all mediums, etc. That in itself might be a good reason to try it I suppose.


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## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

*Question*

How do you introduce bees to the extra deep frames?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*Report # 2*

I checked the small cell gargantuan this afternoon. The very strong single langstroth hive that I had set on top has made good progress in moving down and drawing out a lot of the huge frames. The lang was full of queen cells so I made two strong divides from it. Hopefully I left the queen behind in the gargantuan, but it had lots of young brood so it can make it's own cell if need be. The Weaver Allstars were very vicious, so I didn't make a very complete inspection.

Jim, George: why ? I already have 12 frame Brother Adam hives, so why not something bigger? I own two Bobcats with forklift attachements. The major problem with any frame deeper than 9 1/8" - extracting. 

Picture of partially drawn frame:

http://flickr.com/photos/odfrank/434591454/


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think Walt Wright will be interested in the experiment. He wants continuous comb for the brood nest as he thinks the queen will lay bigger and better patterns. This is also the reason for the Dadant Deeps. I see the queen hesitating to move up a box with deeps because a deep is almost big enough. I'm curious to see how it works out.


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## honigbiene (Sep 6, 2006)

[the small cell hive . . . is so vicious that I can only work it late on Saturday afternoons because it is only about 20 feet away from a public sidewalk which is only quiet on Sundays.]


Your neighbors must love you.


David


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## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

*weight should'nt be a concern*

Cool pic of the frame! lot of room for the queen..

regarding lifting the box - I feel it is a good idea when the hive is set at a permanent spot. you only have to lift one frame at a time not the whole box! and you can put on medium supers on top of the brood chamber.

I am interested in its overwintering ability in the north. should do great up here!


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

*bees*

odfrank how about an update ?????



I gotta build me one of these giant brood chambers , oh and paint it pink, and sit it right in the middle of the flower garden


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*So far not so good, due to poor bees.*

I made one small cell gargatuan and one large cell gargantuan. The failure was due to Weaver All Americans started 10/06. The regular size frame divide I put on top of the large cell foundation, failed to build up and did not move down onto the gargantuan frames. I think it and several sister nucs superceded in early spring and only built up late. I moved this hive off to another yard in May, and it eventually made two supers late. The divide on top of the small cell foundation went hog wild, same batch of queens. It moved down very strongly into the gargantuan super. When i went to remove it from the top, it had twelve swarm cells. I divided it into two and moved them to another yard. The bees were so vicious that I could not check the gargantuan frames below, the boxes are only 25' from a public sidewalk. They stung my suit and followed me like africans, back into my shop. The gargantuan than threw several swarms, which were also vicious, one of which I put in the small cell gargantuan, it has been slow to build up. The gargantuan small cell, now after throwing at least three swarms, is queenless. I have another small cell feral bait swarm that I am going to put onto it soon, I think by turning it upside down on top. Most of the gargantuan small cell frames got drawn out, but only a few of the large cell frames are drawn. Ask me again a year from now. I will try to take a few pics.


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

*brood chambers*

Odfrank


So is this a bee failure, or equipment failure ?? You gonna stick with it ???


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Perhaps it might be easier to get the bees to achieve complete occupancy if you used follower boards to reduct the frame-count to around 6 or 8, at least until they do.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

spunky said:


> Odfrank
> So is this a bee failure, or equipment failure ?? You gonna stick with it ???


I built them, gotta use them. Oh, they will be gangbusters next year .


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

I think in order for this test to yield some useful data, you've got to create an artificial swarm for each box.

You'll also need to make sure that they are of the same size (by weight).

I see you are in CA, so you should still be able to do it yet this season. They'll should have time to build back up before winter, as you don't have a terribly tough winter there by the Bay, do you?


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Maybe you should try putting them into the big box(gurangalsp) only, and not let them have another box until they get the bigger frames drawn out. It might be too much room for them to handle with another box on top......i'm interested in this experiment....so ya gotta make it work somehow.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*Garantuan frame photos*

See previous post 07-27-2007 04:39 PM for the story. Pic one shows the thin surplus edge frames that failed in both hives, I will have to buy some deep frame size for next year. The small cell hive made huge patches of drone comb before it swarmed itself to death. The large cell hive is up to about five frames with huge patches of brood.












































http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t7/odfrank/Garantuan BroodChambers/


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Printing for Walt


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

The four year saga has come to a partial end. The small cell Gargantuan survived the winter. One conclusion is that the double deep frames are a good/impractical theory and that the width of the hive was definitely wrong. I HAVE NO WAY TO EXTRACT DOUBLE DEEP FRAMES. The brood frames used usually seem to not exceed six frames wide. The outer three frames on each side become solely honey storage which I can only run foundationless and cut out the crop. I have now moved six of the gargantuan frames containing brood into the center of a double deep ten frames hive with 9 1/8" frames in positions 1,2,9,10 in both boxes. I am thinking that this might better be performed in an eight frame wide setup to force more honey up into the supers, but I am reluctant to add eight frame to the already complex assemblage of box sizes I have accumulated over 42 years. I have accomplished forcing the surplus honey into supers. 
I am going to cut the boxes down to match the Brother Adam size hives I already run. I have to determine what to do with the left over double deep frames. Cut them down, use them in matching new setups and throw a swarm in them, or:
FOR SALE 21 DOUBLE DEPTH FRAMES.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Interesting experiment. I'd thought of using a standard 1x12 to make boxes that are then something like 11.5" deep -- don't relish the idea of manipulating larger frames and certainly not picking up deeper boxes!

I wish I'd seen this sooner -- the original Langstroth design used a cross bar half way down those deep frames, I would assume to make them strong enough to handle the weigh of the comb without it failing. I wonder if the bees would have used more of the comb if they had that cross bar in there?

Peter


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

They eventually used all of the frames. The problem was the frames are too big to extract and the box was too big to foce honey up into the supers.


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## Mycroft Jones (Aug 22, 2015)

odfrank, the hive had roughly 3 deep worth of volume; but I see people with photos of 3 deeps and 3 supers reporting great honey harvests. Was it something to do with your bees or your location that they wouldn't fill up any more than the 3 deeps volume of the Gargantuan hive?

The Perone hive is like 6 supers; and bees fill that.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

They did fill them at one point. But the brood chamber was too big and fit too much honey and the frames were too big to extract. I still keep 10 and 12 frame hives with 11 1/4" deep frames. There are other threads on the gargantuan hives if you search. Here is a video of a huge swarm going into gargantuan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3zB61HDtXs


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## Mycroft Jones (Aug 22, 2015)

Thanks odfrank. Your dimension are pretty similar to the Layens/Lazutin hive, but he did the front entrance and ran it out to 25 frames; he found that other than one frame of honey in front of the broodnest, the honey was almost all put in the back; so easy to remove while leaving broodnest undisturbed.

I've been thinking of standardizing on Lupanov size (21"x21") frames, but then I saw a photo of the Apiscope and wondered, what about 36" frames? Lot of experimenting to do this spring.

When you say the brood chamber fit too much honey, you mean they were filling up the brood nest with honey, not leaving enough space for brood? Or so much that they couldn't use it, and then it crowded them out of house and home the next year?


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

Seriously, as someone who has been wanting to do 2-3 Dadant deep hives this is absolutely fascinating.


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