# How does my nuc design hold up?



## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

In a previous thread, I posted some pics of a top entrance nuc & bottom feeder that I was building and asked for feedback. Well, this is what I've come up with.

































I decided to make my bottom board feeder, heavier and slightly deeper. I also took a suggestion from Michael Bush to narrow my screen to reduce drowning. On the bottom board are some left over tongue & grove boards that were glued with Tightbond 3 and then sealed with latex. In the future I see using an aluminum cake pan & 3/4 exterior plywood. Obviously I didn't use box joints, but I'm not set up for that at this time. They are simple butt joints glued and fastened with galvanized nails. 

The top cover is heavier and has an integrated entrance, but is currently lacking the metal cover I have yet to fabricate. Again, I will opt for 3/4" plywood to cover tops in the future. There were also a few mistakes on my part that I will fix later. For instance, in respecting bee space I routed groves in the bottom board to allow the screen to sit lower than the surface, but the ends of those grooves need sealed as they extend to the outside of the hive. It may seem like a lot of trouble to go through in building these, but I could really use the practice. If I get several years from their use; I'll be more than happy and anything that I'm not sure I like will be used for traps.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Very nice!
The only thing I would do differently would be to build the covers the same width as the box, without the overlap. That way the nucs could all be pushed together flush for wintering.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I agree on lid. Very nice, make me thirty of them and i will test them free of charge.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Thank You. Ya, I wish I had 30- especially if I had the bees to stock them.  

I see your point about the lid. I could make that change and it would definitely save some lumber. Truth is I didn't think that far ahead. With spring here I'm finding myself being stretched between different projects now. The latest might involve replacing some beams under a large chicken coop or just ripping it down and building a new one.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Consider a 1/2" hole bored an inch down from the top of the box for an entrance and a cheap and easy migratory flat cover. Nucs need a defensible entrance and a lot of bees can go thru a hole that size. If it is robbing season, duct tape can halve the size.


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## Jackchapmanjr (Nov 17, 2014)

Question, is there any hole down lower for air flow? Might consider an entrance hole lower on the opposite side of the lid entrance..


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

The entrance will be reducible, I just haven't got that far. As far as ventilation goes, I had this solved earlier as the bottom board should extend about 2" longer than the box for filling. #8 cloth was used to prevent robbing and it had a simple wood cover that can be removed for air flow. You don't see that in the pictures because I forgot to build the bottom the way I had intended. I will most likely have to add a sealable vent to what you see simply because I don't want to always have to remove the bottom for filling. It's still a work in progress- I'll agree to that.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks again for all the input- I just wanted to add a few things before I forget. 

I'm thinking that once I get established, I may choose to use the Mike Palmer nuc method for wintering. I've read about it and have seen his videos- seems like a sound strategy for northern beeks. My problem as of late seems to be that I'm rushing to build everything before the bees start showing up and although I have good idea of what I want to build, I keep wandering off the plan. lol


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Bees are the original HVAC technicians. You do not have all that many ventilation worries. Paint them a light color and the smaller hole or one with the spinner reducer will be all you need. Nucs need an area they can defend and climate control. They do not need a wind tunnel.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

I've seen this argument before and was unsure of the general consensus. Some say adequate ventilation using the entrance and another hole, example: bottom entrance, vent hole in top cover. Then I've read where people suggest a top entrance is enough because of what's known as the swamp cooler theory, where ventilation like the previously mentioned actually works against the bees ability to cool a hive themselves. I'm kind of at a loss here because I have no experience, but what I can tell is that ventilation practices vary between climates.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Nice.

> I'm kind of at a loss here because I have no experience, but what I can tell is that ventilation practices vary between climates.

I've been messing with ventilation and bees for 41 years and I'm not certain of much... other than moist air rises and bees manage ventilation better than I do and too much ventilation makes it impossible for them to cool the hive. But how do you tell if ventilation is just right? I'm still working on that.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

I'd suggest that you make the rim on the outer cover in the 1 3/4 range. Then add a 1 1/2 cleat to the NUC box, spaced 1/4 below outer cover cleat. Makes for a very comfortable grasp and carrying of the NUC.









The lip on the outer cover can be readily dealt with by placing a 2 inch piece of stryrofoam between the NUCs when you push them together in the fall. Here's two 6 over 6 six NUCs that I wintered.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

MB: thanks for your thoughts, mgolden: thanks for the pix.

mgolden: I have to ask though, how is that OSB working for you? I never liked the stuff- has a shorter life than solid wood when outside in our climate even if painted. Doesn't warp like plywood though.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

These boxes are for NUC sales, so OSB is very low cost. Less than $8 for a 4 x 8 sheet of 7/16. The local lumber outlet sells 2ft by 4ft slightly damages 1/2 and 3/4 plywood for $2. Think those boxes have less than $5 of material in them. 

Usually use two ratchet straps to transport the NUCs. Work very well. If customer does not bring ratchet straps, then it's a couple of wraps of duct tape. 

I have a garden shed that is 30 years old with 7/16 OSB sheeting. Sheeting has been painted with fence stain/paint and is in very good condition. OSB is very poor on a flat surface as it absorbs moisture. With OSB walls an outer cover would be very good as it keeps the rain from getting into the top butt edge of the side wall.

I also generally have a piece of metal siding that I place over the NUCs to provide shade and weather proofing.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Usually use two ratchet straps to transport the NUCs. Work very well. If customer does not bring ratchet straps, then it's a couple of wraps of duct tape. 

For temporary lid security get a roll of the three or four inch shrink wrap on a stick. Unbelievably fast and cheap and effective. The stuff your hardware store uses to tape together your bundle of florescent tubes.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

That's an interesting idea- for sales I mean. Has to be better than waxed cardboard. I like the idea of ratchet straps for travel- didn't think of that. I'll definitely be securing hives/nucs in the yard with them though.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

I burnished these with a propane torch and resealed with my beeswax mixture. I can't remember where I seen this done, or I would give credit where it is rightfully due (sorry). I did much better on the second one though and reduced the entrance size to roughly 3/8" x 2". Still waiting for an order of #8 hardware cloth to finish the feeders. I believe that I'll paint he 10 frame Lang's with some left over paint that I have instead of wasting more propane, and see what lasts longer.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

What is the advantage of a bottom feeder over a top feeder?
Won't all the dirty stuffs like pollen, dead mites, wax bits from the brood capping, etc. that
will fall to the bottom to contaminate the syrup? I thought the purpose is to feed them to store
before the cold weather sets in.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Sure. Just like most hive ware there are advantages and disadvantages to using this feeder, but keep in mind that I'm doing this while having no working experience- thus this post. I'm very happy to see all the concerns and comments here.

When I weighed out all the pro's & cons, my reasoning went sort of like this: I'm using a top entrance hive so concerns of robbing weighed heavily here- especially for the nucs. This lead me to using a modified Miller feeder concept on the bottom. 

Yes, there will be debris falling into the syrup and I wasn't too concerned about this because: 1. Although it isn't traditional, it will indeed function just as a sticky board does for IPM. 2. I have no intention of leaving this feeder unattended or filled with syrup for weeks/months at a time. My guess is that a nuc might hold a gallon and the 10 frame Lang somewhere around 2 gallons. When emptied: wash, rinse, repeat. 3. If or when my theory ends in some sort of failure; I've already thought of a way to keep the hive waste secluded from the syrup. I may even implement that from the start if it is that imperative- this all (even though completed at this stage) is still very much a work in progress.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Does it works if you put a piece of foam over the screen to minimize the
debris from falling into the syrup. The edge is where the bees will go in to get the
syrup. Maybe your idea is better.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

My thought was to place a piece of 3/16" corrugated plastic sheet I have under the screen itself and coat it with Crisco or white petrolatum. In the center would be a cutout for the well of the feeder. Problem is that it won't prevent 100% of the debris from falling in there, but it will reduce it significantly. 

Note: Michael Bush suggested earlier that I just go with a Miller top feeder and simply reduce the entrance as needed to prevent robbing. Then, I'd just maintain a simple IPM bottom board setup. Certainly, he makes a very sound argument due to simplicity. But we both agreed that neither would want to have to buy a bunch of them because of the expense. I bet that I could make half a dozen (give or take) of my feeders for the price of 1 commercially made Miller feeder.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You can make a small shelter/canopy over the cut hole. I'm thinking either a milk jug plastic or soda bottle
to cover the raised shelter. You would cut big vertical slots so that the bees can go inside the hole to feed.
The debris should fall off the plastic canopy onto the plastic sheet if it cover the hole leaving a big of a space
for the bees to crawl inside. The top part of the soda pop plastic bottle came to mind. What do you think?


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Beepro: Ya, that's possible. My only concern at this point would be maintaining bees space. I'm still waiting for the hardware cloth to show up here, then I can work through it. So much easier for me to envision something if I have physical parts & pieces.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Cyan said:


> I just go with a Miller top feeder and simply reduce the entrance as needed to prevent robbing. Then, I'd just maintain a simple IPM bottom board setup. Certainly, he makes a very sound argument due to simplicity. But we both agreed that neither would want to have to buy a bunch of them because of the expense. I bet that I could make half a dozen (give or take) of my feeders for the price of 1 commercially made Miller feeder.


What you have built is getting awful close to a Miller feeder. Need to add four cross pieces and cut an opening slot in the bottom. They work very well with few drownings. Easy to fill as just take the cover off and fill as bees cannot get to top side of Miller feeder.

As heat from bees rises, bees can access syrup longer in a feeder above as syrup is warmer. If one is so inclined, can also add warm syrup(amount that will be used by the bees each day) every morning.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

A 2" or so shim should be enough to maintain the bee space between
the hive and the feeder.
Or if you like drill the hole to line up with the bottom board and the feeder.
This is what I did with my OAV set up under the bottom board in another box with
opening on the side to access.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Mgolden: It's kind of a reverse design of a Miller feeder, but yes- close. It never really donned on me though about keeping the syrup warmer- you might have something there.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Beepro: that could also have potential. 

I'd prefer to go as natural as possible- without putting the bees back in a hollow tree somewhere in Europe and walking away from them of course. lol But I think that realistically, I'm opting for a minimalist approach on treatments. I'd treat only if necessary with the least invasive but most effective product I could find. With this in mind, I've been thinking about what to do to allow better bottom access if I ever needed to vap them but I fell short there. I realize that I could treat through the top entrance, but I'm thinking that it would be a bit of a pain? Oh well. Summer isn't too far off and I see many, many projects in the works.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I would buy a couple.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

I received my #8 screen yesterday and I'm fairly frustrated at this point. I cut a piece for the feeder screen and couldn't get it to sit square in the feeder. So I double checked my ware to make sure that it was square, and it's fine. Apparently the manufacturer of the screen either didn't weld it while it was square or it was severely stretched during rolling. I can't pull it square, so it left me to cut it square and this left sharp ends on the piece. Between that and having to plant & prepare the gardens; I'm finding myself overwhelmed. 

I won't be re-thinking my desire to become a beek, but I'll tell you one thing; I need to make some serious changes in how I do things if I am to continue making my own ware- namely, having a place to work on it over the winter instead of this close to planting time. Winter is about the only season I have the free time to do it, I just didn't realize the time constraints that were before me and all that was involved looking at this in December.


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## GZB (Jan 29, 2013)

I really enjoy the winter work of bee keeping and was a little sad this winter that I didn't need to build more boxes and stands. I made moving screens instead, but that didn't take long.

Two things I think are potentially problematic with your approach that haven't been mentioned: At some point, you are going to have to lift the nuc off the feeder and move it to a real bottom board for winter. That seems to be an extra step that is avoided by top feeders. Next, you are now providing a substantial moisture source directly below the entire colony. So as the bees are trying to dry the nectar to the correct level, they are fighting this pond that's constantly evaporating below them.

Mgolden made a really good point I feel like I should have thought of: rising heat as a syrup warmer. Yeah, the bees only heat the cluster but the whole hive is a bit if an air warmer. Most of the year, that bit of heat makes a big difference in the temperature of top feed for us northerners.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Those are definitely good points. With all the trouble I had trying to make a feeder screen, I'm about ready to scrap the idea anyway and just maintain the feeders as IPM BB's. I had previous ideas for top feeders (jar feeders) that still allow for a top entrance, but I'd have to see what kind of lumber I have left.

Yes, I'm going to do that. Lesson learned. Thank You. :thumbsup:


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Pictures of the stand I built.














Picture of the jar feeder. There are 8-9, 18 gauge holes per lid. Is this enough for feeding? Seems kind of light.














Pictures of the screen and corrugated plastic sheet that I'll use as a sticky board. This is the same BB/feeder I posted before. I thought about milling a slot in the side of it for easy removal of the board, but I'm leaving it at this. The screw in the center just makes it easier to lift out- nothing fancy. The black material in the corners is a scrap gasket I got from work to seal my 'over-cutting. I may drill a hole in the side and under the BB screen for ventilation. Not sure how large of one to make for both the nuc and 10 frame medium box.

This is my last picture upload for this post. The feeder for the 10 frame hive will be similar, but I'd prefer to use quart jars instead of pints. I just don't have them yet, but that's the last step before they are bee ready. Ironically, I am not bee ready. I learned a few days ago that I must now find another suit & veil. lol It just never ends. :waiting:


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Cyan, I see you been busy in the dirt. I wish I had done my stands already. Mine need to go on a hill a bit steeper, but am not looking forward to making it level. Looks nice.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Just put blocks underneath the 2 legs to level the hive stand will do. No need to
level up the ground first.

Are you also ant proofing your cinder blocks? If you have ants then consider that also.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks. How do you ant proof the block?


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Cyan,
It appears you put a good bit of thought and work into this project, it all looks really great. If I may add a word of advice I would take the time now to place another set of blocks to support the middle of the hive stand, it is much easier to do now than later and believe me when I tell you that those timbers will bow under the weight of the hives. Also it would be wise to turn all the blocks so that the solid flat side is facing the ground or your blocks will sink into the soil in short order.

Where ants are concerned I have dusted the area next to the blocks with Boric acid powder and have successfully stemmed the ant problem however keep the powder close to the blocks to help avoid the bees getting into it. There may be better ways to control ants however at the time the Boric acid worked well.

You can see in this picture of my nucs how the blocks are placed with the solid flat side down and the frame is supported in the middle.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

I thought of laying the block flat, but here it's the perfect place for the ants to nest. I'm not too concerned about them sinking though. There is roughly 4" of topsoil and below is some really rocky, hardpan yellow clay. I will definitely take the suggestion to add another row of blocks. Thank You.

Edit: Also on that note, I was thinking of using rebar inside the block as an anchor for the stand/frame. My fear is that a good summer storm may cause tipping once the hives are more mature. The hives will be strapped down of course.


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