# Kelley's now sell foundationless frames



## lupester (Mar 12, 2008)

Thanks for the link...it sucks for me because I just bought 300 slotted top and bottom frames from Dadant, would have saved me a bunch of time!

I sent Dadant an email.


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## lupester (Mar 12, 2008)

There is a price break down to $.68 for over 100 on mediums.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Thanks for the links!


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## cheezer32 (Feb 3, 2009)

Very nice I'll be picking some up this summer.


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## Brenda (Nov 23, 2006)

lupester said:


> There is a price break down to $.68 for over 100 on mediums.


Where are you finding this? I didn't see it anywhere and putting 100 in the cart still charges you .95 each. Thanks.


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## lupester (Mar 12, 2008)

I talked to a lady there and asked about it.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Brenda said:


> I didn't see it anywhere and putting 100 in the cart still charges you .95 each. Thanks.


I just called Kelley at 1-800-233-2899. These are so new that they are not in the recently mailed new catalog nor have they been placed on the web site yet. Med. frames 100-499 are .68 each and 500-999 are .66 each, but you will have to call at this time. Hope this helps.


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

Is the bottom bar solid?


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## archy (Nov 14, 2009)

Would these frames require wiring them or anything else not needed when using foundation?


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## mcooper (Dec 3, 2009)

Hm, Anyone used frames similar to this before?


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## Brenda (Nov 23, 2006)

Thanks guys.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

From what I understand, the deep foundationless frames still need to be horizontally wired... Gives much needed additional support to the comb. So I'm wiring 800 of mine... wish I didn't have to, but figure the advice is solid.


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## mcooper (Dec 3, 2009)

StevenG said:


> From what I understand, the deep foundationless frames still need to be horizontally wired... Gives much needed additional support to the comb. So I'm wiring 800 of mine... wish I didn't have to, but figure the advice is solid.



So are you extracting these deeps or using them for brood?


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

It is well worth the time puting wiring into your frames makes working much easer. they will be stronger and straight built combs


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

mcooper, I use deeps just for brood...but you just never know. So I wire.
"never say never" :no:


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## mcooper (Dec 3, 2009)

StevenG said:


> mcooper, I use deeps just for brood...but you just never know. So I wire.
> "never say never" :no:


Dumb question for a beekeeper of 10 years...do I have to heat the wire and get it in the foundation?


I ordered 10 of these frames this afternoon I'll give them a try and report back how they work for me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Yes, I've been using similar frames for years and they work great.

No, I don't wire them.

No, you don't have to, nor can you heat the wire to embed it in the foundation because there will be no foundation. You can, if you wish, put wire in the frame.

www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm


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## mcooper (Dec 3, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> Yes, I've been using similar frames for years and they work great.
> 
> No, I don't wire them.
> 
> ...


I should have clarified....do I need to embed wires in my frames with foundation? I have 50 right now that I could wire up. I do use vertically wired foundation.

I figure that the wire will help the foundationless frames be stronger...so I don't mind doing it.


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## 11x (May 14, 2009)

will the bees build around the wires?


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

will the bees build around the wires? 

yes, they will build the comb right around it, they "imbed" the wire in their comb


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## pcelar (Oct 5, 2007)

lupester said:


> I talked to a lady there and asked about it.


I do not like these games.
Why do not they post it if it is so.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

11x said:


> will the bees build around the wires?


Not only will the bees build around the wires, effectively embedding the wire into their foundationless comb, but I once had the bees begin a comb on the top wire and build the comb both directions from there, up to the top bar and down around the other wires and to the bottom bar. In retrospect, I should have marked that comb, now I can't tell it from any of the other ones.


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## Bsupplier (Dec 23, 2008)

Hi Guys, 
The new foundationless frame is in the new catalog, which is being mailed on Tuesday the 19th. This frame is called our F style. We are making this frame in deep and medium sizes. 1-49 = .95 ea. 50-99 = .75 ea. 100-499 = .68 ea. 500-999 = .66 ea. 1000-4999 = .64 ea. call for pricing over 5,000. We have changed the design slightly that was previously posted on the web. I now have the new pictures up. Instead of just a 1/4 x 1/4" strip down the center of the top bar we have bevel cut this leaving about 3/16" flat. The bottom bar is solid.
Thank You,
Walter T. Kelley Co.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

mcooper, to answer your question about heating the wire... 
I've found the easiest way to use foundation and wire is to assemble the frame, then wire the frame. Then install the foundation into the wired frame, and I use kelley's Electric Embedder. Had to add a few more contacts for it to work efficiently, but it works. I found the deluxe eyelet tool to be useless, use the single instead. Its' faster. So if you use foundation, heating the wire is the quickest way for me to get it embedded.

However, as Michael Bush points out, going foundationless, you don't embed the wires because there's no foundation. the bees draw the comb around the wires. And since I'm going foundationless, I now have an electric embedder for sale. :lpf:


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

If only I didn't have to pay shipping. I'll have to keep making my own from Dadant wedge frames. Takes about 10 seconds per top bar to rip off the edge at 45 degrees.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Bsupplier,

I've looked at the new design and it looks better. Just one question, is the 'flat spot' at the bottom of the wedge 3/16 or is it 3/32? Also, what is the dimension of the thickness of the top bar above the wedge?

thanks,

fafrd


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## Bsupplier (Dec 23, 2008)

We start beveling at 1/2". 
There will be a little variance on the flat. 3/16-1/4". There is plenty of beef still on the top bar.
Thank You


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## lupester (Mar 12, 2008)

Ross, when you want to order for next year we can combine and maybe get pallet rates!


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>There will be a little variance on the flat. 3/16-1/4" . . .

Will a "wide" flat work?

The frames I have made (and sold) in the past formed a sharp "V". 
Other info here suggests using Popsicle sticks in a "standard" frame. The flat created w/ the Popsicle sticks is very narrow.


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## Bsupplier (Dec 23, 2008)

I consulted with Michael Bush on this frame design. We think it will work fine.
Thank You.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've used everything from a point to a fairly wide flat spot. The main thing is that there is a protrusion to follow and then they seem to follow that fine. If not then they don't. Mine usually had between 1/8" and 3/16" flat spot on them, although a few have been wider. Mostly I went with that because cutting a standard sized to bar turned out that way if I wanted to maintain a decent flat area on the ends of the top bar for the rests.


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

I am constantly reminded of the huge learning curve in beekeeping. The idea of using foundationless frames is yet another example. I am interested in the concept of foundationless in my brood boxes, but want to stick with plastic foundation in wood frames in the honey supers. I am expanding to 50 hives this spring. However, I just invested in the woodenware and plastic Pierco foundation to make that expansion. That being said, I have questions for those of you experienced with foundationless frames:

1. Can I use the deep wooden frames(top and bottom groove for plastic foundation) I have already purchased? 

2. If I can, can I rip the Pierco plastic foundation into starter strips and hot glue them into the top bar groove and/or the bottom bar groove? Would that provide a useabale starter if waxed?

3. How long does it take(on average) for the bees to draw comb in a foundationless brood frame?

4. Can hive bodies containing drawn foundationless frames be moved via truck or trailer, or is the comb too fragile without the stability of wires or plastic foundation?


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Bsupplier (and Michael),

thanks for the response but I have a couple additional questions:

1/ I understand frm Michael Bush's website that he has made his 'V' shaped foundationless frames by modifying 'Kelley solid top bar frames' - do these new foundationless frames from Kelley's essentially add additional wood below the solid top bar frames or do they amount to the solid top bar frames with some wood removed from either side to form the protrusion?

2/ I did not see any comment on the bottom bars associated with these new foundationless frames - can I assume that the bottom bars are solid?

3/ I can not find the 'solid top bar frames' on the Kelley's website - can you tell me how they can be odered, how much they cost, and if there is any minimum order quantity?

The good news for you is that I belive you are about to get some of my business - I want to place an order in the next few days for frames to get me through the season.  The bad news is that I have the equiptment to make my own 'V' shaped foundationless frames from solid top bar frames in the way Michael Bush has recommended and I am not yet sure which way to go - solid top bar with custom modification or the new foundationless frames you have designed with Michael's help.

Would appreciate your responses to the above 3 questions to help me reach a decision.

-fafrd


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1/ I understand frm Michael Bush's website that he has made his 'V' shaped foundationless frames by modifying 'Kelley solid top bar frames' - do these new foundationless frames from Kelley's essentially add additional wood below the solid top bar frames or do they amount to the solid top bar frames with some wood removed from either side to form the protrusion?

They are similar, but not identical, to what I made, in that they are cut from a regular top bar.

>2/ I did not see any comment on the bottom bars associated with these new foundationless frames - can I assume that the bottom bars are solid?

The ones I got were. I assume they still are.

>3/ I can not find the 'solid top bar frames' on the Kelley's website - can you tell me how they can be odered, how much they cost, and if there is any minimum order quantity?

I custom ordered mine. It was dependent on the quantity I was ordering and how busy they were a the time. I had to wait until the next run of top bars. I can't say if they will still agree to make them or not.

>The good news for you is that I belive you are about to get some of my business - I want to place an order in the next few days for frames to get me through the season. The bad news is that I have the equiptment to make my own 'V' shaped foundationless frames from solid top bar frames in the way Michael Bush has recommended and I am not yet sure which way to go - solid top bar with custom modification or the new foundationless frames you have designed with Michael's help.

You could call Kelley and ask about the solid ones. They sold them to me at the standard price, but I bought a thousand and had to wait until they got around to them.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

The next time I am in need of additional wooden frames, I will, most likely purchase some of these new foundationless frames from Kelley's, along with any other frames I may need. I use many foundationless frames in my hives, but not exclusively. I have found Kelley frames to be some of the best made wooden frames, if not the very best wooden frames in the business. I can't remember a time when I've ever had even a single frame component from them fail or be unusable. No warping, no knots, no flaws of any kind (their Q.A. must be ruthless). The design of their frames and the tolerances of the wooden components is also exceptional.

I may even try some of those frames with the grooves in the sidebars (I haven't seen any hive beetles here in the desert).

I was also thinking that a router table might easily be set up to cut chamfers to create a "V" shape in the comb area of a top bar without affecting any other part of the top bars. They could even be cut at an angle less than 45 degrees. But, personally, I think the design Kelley has decided to produce will work just fine and I look forward to trying them out.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Michael,

thaknks for the response. I think I am gong to go ahead with the new Kelley foundatinless frames and your involvement with the initiative is a big factor in my confidence to move forward.

A couple more quick question for you. I am using deep frames and while I am not planning on extracting these frames and am thinking they will be used only for brood, one can never tell and so I am thinking that planning to assemble these frames in a way that they are strong enough to be extracted might be good foresight. So my questions:

A/ Do you think the deep frames would need reinforcement of any kind for radial extraction (after wax hardening)?

B/ Same question for tangential extraction?

C/ If you think some reinforcement might be needed for extraction of deep foundationless frames, do you think a single horzontal bar/wire or a single vertical bar/wire would be better?

D/ I am thiking to drill a couple 1/16" diameter 1/4" deep holes and put a piece of metal coathanger vertically down the center of the frame. If reinforcement of deep foundationless frames for extraction is needed, is this single vertical bar idea a good way to achieve that reinforcement? Do you think there will be any problems with it?

Hopefully you are going to tell me that no reinforcement will be needed, but if it might, I have never messed around with all the wire reinforcement that all of the wax foundation beeks use all the time, and the vertical bar made from a piece of coathanger embedded between the top and bottm bars seems much easier and less expensive to me if it is not going to cause a problem.

Advice appreciated.

-fafrd


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>A/ Do you think the deep frames would need reinforcement of any kind for radial extraction (after wax hardening)?

I only have had a few deep foundationless as I run all mediums. I did not put any extra reinforcement in them. Charles Martin Simon used foundationless deeps all the time and said they required no additional support. Dean uses all deeps with no additional support. Both of them extract. But I think Dean uses the Tangential extractor.

>B/ Same question for tangential extraction?

Dean thinks they work fine.

>C/ If you think some reinforcement might be needed for extraction of deep foundationless frames, do you think a single horzontal bar/wire or a single vertical bar/wire would be better?

When I did the Dadant deep frames (11 1/4") I did put one horizontal in. My thinking was that I like the idea of being able too do cut comb from any frame or cut out queen cells and one horizontal doesn't get in the way much.

>D/ I am thiking to drill a couple 1/16" diameter 1/4" deep holes and put a piece of metal coathanger vertically down the center of the frame. If reinforcement of deep foundationless frames for extraction is needed, is this single vertical bar idea a good way to achieve that reinforcement? Do you think there will be any problems with it?

The purpose of wires is to keep the foundation from sagging until it is drawn. It was never to reinforce it for extraction. I don't think wires will stop a blowout if you crank it up too high nor do I think you should crank it up too high with or without wire.

>Hopefully you are going to tell me that no reinforcement will be needed, but if it might, I have never messed around with all the wire reinforcement that all of the wax foundation beeks use all the time, and the vertical bar made from a piece of coathanger embedded between the top and bottm bars seems much easier and less expensive to me if it is not going to cause a problem.

It's more useful during the time it's being drawn than after it's drawn. But it is useful during drawing. it helps support the comb in case of bumps when moving hives and in case you forget and turn it a little sideways... but once it's drawn and the wax has aged a bit, it's irrelevant.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thans for the response Michael.

Based on your inputs, I am going to move forward without reinforcement. I didn't realize that the wires were primarily to prevent sagging and not for reinforcement during extraction. Since I don't plan to move the hive and expect that any foundationless frames will be fully drawn and aged/hardened without significant disturbance, sounds like the wires/bars will not be needed in my case.

In terms of sagging, if I run into it I can see why a horizontal wire/bar might be better (though with a vertical bar it should also help effectively reduce the frame width in half and s also reduce sagging if the bees attach thecomb to it as it is being drawn) - will tuck the idea in my back pocket in case I ever run int a probem with sagging.

thanks again,

-fafrd

p.s. what did you mean by "in case your forget to turn it a little sideways"??? Turn what? The hive? The frame? Would appreciate to understand what you are referring to in case there is something I am unaware of.


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## Bsupplier (Dec 23, 2008)

Hi Fafrd,
Sorry I havent been able to respond sooner. I have been away from the office this last week. The foundationless frames top bar is cut from our blank top bar and does not have additional wood added. The bottom bar is a solid wood bottom bar.
Thank You


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When bees first start a foundationless comb it is only attached at the top. As they fill it out it eventually gets attached on the sides, and finally the bottom somewhat. When it is only attached to the top and if it is filled with nectar or honey, when you turn the frame flatways the weight of the honey will break off the unsupported comb. So, of course, you shouldn't do that. Let the frame hang on your index fingers and all is well. Turn it flat, and it breaks.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks for the response, Bsupplier. I just placed an order or 100 of the foundationless frames from Jeniffer - hope they get here soon!

I ordered them with the grooved side bars. On the fundationless frames I have been making myself, I like to provide a small wooden giuide down the side bar as well and have been cutting my own grooves for that reason. The fact that Kelley's can provide sidebars with grooves pre-cut was icing on the cake!

Thanks fr your help and I will let you know how they work out for me once I get the first foundationless frames into my hive...

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Michael,

I have been using my first foundationless frames (modified standard medium frames) in my hive over the past couple weeks and I am amazed at how quickly the bees draw on the foundationless frames. I put a medium foundationless frame into the center of the brood chamber this Saturday, and by yesterday (the next time I checked - 4 days later) it was already more than 2/3 drawn with two large intersecting inverted 'U' shapes that spanned the entire width of the top bar and came to within a beespace of the bottom bar.

These feral bees have been incredibly slow to draw on either PF-120s or Wood+wax smal cell foundation frames, and to be honest I had given up and had moved to fully drawn plastic small-cell frames (cut-down HSC), which the bees took to immediately.

Now since I have experimented with foundationless frames, I have understood that the problem was not that they did not want to draw comb, the problem was that they wanted to draw comb their own way, and not draw it on the man-made foundation (of any type).

Am looking forward to inspecting the comb structure of the foundationless combs later in the season and see how it compares to the very regular and controlled comb pattern using foundation...

-fafrd


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You hit the nail on the head. The bees want to build what they want to build and not what we want them to build, which is why they build foundationless quicker than wax foundation, let alone plastic foundation...


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## Logan (May 29, 2009)

I just ordered 100 of these frames, and am looking forward to giving them a try. They have arrived and look to be nice quality frames.

My issue is that I want to try narrow frames as well--to put 9 frames in an 8 frame medium box. Is there a simple, direct, and inexpensive way to shave exactly 1/16" inch off each side of the side bars of the frame? This would reduce the frame by 1/8, leaving a 1-1/4 inch frame, spaced nicely on center ready for a foundation-less hive.

I don't have much woodworking experience, and I don't have many tools. I don't want to invest a lot of money either. Can you do this with some sort of a hand plane or power tool?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Logan,
I have been trimming my wooden end bars down to 1-1/4" width by trimming off 1/16" from each side of the end bars before assembly of the frames. I use my band saw to accomplish this feat - it works very well. With just a little more difficulty, I'm sure it could be accomplished with a table saw, though I would recommend some kind of jig be used to reduce the chance of injury. I just purchased a 2" long 1/2" diameter straight cutter bit for my router table so I can use my router table as a jointer in order to trim 1/16" off each side of my PF120 end bars. I'm sure it would work just as well with wooden end bars.

No doubt there are many other ways to accomplish the task of trimming end bars to a 1-1/4" width.


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## paul.h (Aug 9, 2008)

I have this and it should work well if you can clamp your frame somehow.The depth of cut is adjustable.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91062




Logan said:


> I just ordered 100 of these frames, and am looking forward to giving them a try. They have arrived and look to be nice quality frames.
> 
> My issue is that I want to try narrow frames as well--to put 9 frames in an 8 frame medium box. Is there a simple, direct, and inexpensive way to shave exactly 1/16" inch off each side of the side bars of the frame? This would reduce the frame by 1/8, leaving a 1-1/4 inch frame, spaced nicely on center ready for a foundation-less hive.
> 
> I don't have much woodworking experience, and I don't have many tools. I don't want to invest a lot of money either. Can you do this with some sort of a hand plane or power tool?


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## Logan (May 29, 2009)

A cheap hand planer looks like it would do the job, thanks for the link to HarborFreight. I'll give that a try. I'm sure my local hardware store sells clamps that I can use to get several together at the same time. Thanks!


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## Hayseed (Apr 25, 2004)

I've used MBs wedge design for several years. Bees draw very nice comb from them - under one condition - I need to place one foundationless frame between two fully drawn (preferrably capped) frames. Makes beautiful cut comb.

One question: I seem to be getting a large percentage of drone comb built lately in foundationless. Do you think it's related to time of year, breed of bees, spacing, or what?

Dale


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