# Help me pick my type of bee for my location | Italian or Carniolan



## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Sentinel said:


> I ended up reading many things between on or the other, a huge debate on which does what, but personally what do you guys prefer, what do you guys have in your hives and what is your experience?


I would go with the Carnis. Overwinter better, easier on stores, calm and gentle bee. Italians are good bees as well. Sometimes Italians really don't like to shut down brood production. Which can cause problems with winter stores.

Shane


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

is there anyone producing bees near your location sentinel? bees that are proven to do well in your area are your best bet in my opinion. i would consider asking around and finding out from whom the experienced beeks are getting their bees, or better yet see if you can buy a split or two from them. i really like mine, they are heavily mongrelized 'locally adapted survivor mutts'.


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## Sentinel (Feb 2, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> is there anyone producing bees near your location sentinel? bees that are proven to do well in your area are your best bet in my opinion. i would consider asking around and finding out from whom the experienced beeks are getting their bees, or better yet see if you can buy a split or two from them. i really like mine, they are heavily mongrelized 'locally adapted survivor mutts'.


The only beekeepers close to me are like 2 hours away and they have both.
For $150 I can get 4 pounds of bee's with 2 queens but they have to be the same type.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> i really like mine, they are heavily mongrelized 'locally adapted survivor mutts'.


Our local bee is a good bee as well. Our "local" bees are much darker and similar in characteristics as the Carnis. Our locals will often totally shut down in our summer dearth and overwinter in much smaller clusters.


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## rfgreenwell (Feb 14, 2010)

I would try carniolan X italian hybrids for your area. For wintering those winters I would do a carniolan queen open mated in an Italian drone pool. Little tempering on swarming dates, little bigger cluster in winter, but still a brood shut down in dearth and much smaller than Italian winter cluster and less stores. C F Koenhen sells carniolans that are hybrids, with carnie on the queen side. The hybrids usually express more of the traits of the queen side than the drone side, but are a mix of each of the genetic background. If you can find an Italian hybrid X with carniolan drones, it would be worth trying that mix side by side with the formerly mentioned. I know that AI/II breeders can be made that way, but don't know offhand if there are any producers offering that mix in open mated production queens. But bottom line is that most all bees are hybridized anyway, and you should be fine with any of them, allowing for the need of different management practices depending on the bee type you end up with in your yard. I like the Carniolan X VSH and it is largely what I run. Carniolan traits and hygenic with enough hybridization in there for vigor. Our winters are milder than yours, and summers are hot and humid, with a short intense nectar flow. Most around me like Italians for their early build up, but I like the explosive pollen driven brooding of the carnies. I never give them pollen patties early, and find that waiting for natural maple and willow pollen gives them plenty of time to build up and have to stay on top of them then. Good luck and try to find whatever you use from local producers so they are well acclimatized to Iowa.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

IMO Italians are only the right choice for almond pollinators who need to get large colonies in February. That really their only advantage over the other bees.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I'm partial to local mutts.

Enj.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Sentinel said:


> The only beekeepers close to me are like 2 hours away and they have both.
> For $150 I can get 4 pounds of bee's with 2 queens but they have to be the same type.


I'm in Iowa as well. There are plenty of beekeepers around. Ordering from Spring Valley Honey farms or Eberts? I got packages from both last year. Ebert sells CF Koehnen packages and Spring Valley sells CF Koehnen queens with bees shaken from their hives that overwinter in California. There are others around. I'm sure someone sells nucs locally if you dig hard enough. There are a few companies that stop in Iowa and sell nucs too. Might be tough to find true local bees. Catch some swarms. 

Ebert and spring valley were both good to deal with last year and Ebert sells queens that are supposed to be raised and mated in Iowa out of Cedar Rapids later in the summer.

All that said, in my very new opinion I would say go with Carniolans. Two of our three were Carni and one Italian. The Italians were brooding machines ate almost all their honey through the summer. They were also significantly meaner than the Carnis or swarms we caught. Carnis didn't need nearly as much feed either going into fall. All are alive for us at this point though. 

Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions. There is also Kalona Honey which might be closer to you.


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## JMann70806 (Oct 13, 2014)

I'll would agree on the buy local 2 hrs away isn't that far .


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Study Mel Disselkoens methods, and he is in your area, from his site mdasplitter.com Produce your own local queens and have better queens than you can buy.


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## EasternIowaBees (May 6, 2013)

Check the ads in The Buzz Newsletter. http://abuzzaboutbees.com/beehive/buzz/2015/pdf/2015-February-Buzz-Newsletter-Digital-Copy.pdf Curtis Barnhart**is not too far from you in Montecello, Iowa. (319 480‐4209 [email protected]) He has Italian/Carniolan/Russian cross.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Vance G said:


> Study Mel Disselkoens methods, and he is in your area, from his site mdasplitter.com Produce your own local queens and have better queens than you can buy.


I have Mel's book. Very good information. Mel's principals are easy to implement.

Shane


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Long, cold winters here too (usually). I started with Carnis a few years ago. Last year I brought in some Italians. The plan/idea, such as it is, is to is to eventually arrive at a mix. There is little structure to this plan [currently], just open mating and see what shakes out. I'm not sure I will have any Italians left by the time this Winter is finally done.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

jwcarlson said:


> Carnis didn't need nearly as much feed either going into fall.


How much less feed do Carniolans need compared to Italians?


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## garusher (May 28, 2012)

tsmullins said:


> I have Mel's book. Very good information. Mel's principals are easy to implement.
> 
> Shane


ain't that the truth.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

KQ6AR said:


> IMO Italians are only the right choice for almond pollinators who need to get large colonies in February. That really their only advantage over the other bees.


If you live in an area where the only significant flow is early Spring, as along the Front Range, then the Italian's tendency to produce large colonies in early Spring is a super important advantage.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Can't argue with that, but you'll bee feeding them later in the year because they continue to raise young.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Both will do fine. I'd prefer the Carniolans...


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## Yukon-Gold (Nov 13, 2013)

Sentinel - I am a stones throw from you. I have three Carniolans and one Russian hive. I have been happy with both so far. Only going into my second year so I will leave the words of wisdom to someone more experienced than myself.


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## GOHoney (Jun 19, 2013)

I have one hive from a trap-out I did not get the queen on. I gave them a Carniolan queen and they did great. I like them. They are not so fast to confront me when I go into their hive. I ordered two more packages for this year. I also like my Italians, they make lots of honey.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

KQ6AR said:


> Can't argue with that, but you'll bee feeding them later in the year because they continue to raise young.


You will also be feeding the Carnies because they missed the only significant flow of the season. It may be a smaller cluster that needs feeding with the Carnies, but in exchange, you won't harvest much if any honey from them.


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## Sentinel (Feb 2, 2015)

shinbone said:


> You will also be feeding the Carnies because they missed the only significant flow of the season. It may be a smaller cluster that needs feeding with the Carnies, but in exchange, you won't harvest much if any honey from them.


They are rumored to produce more honey than italians, but my question to you because it is still winter for us, would Carnies be a good choice for producing honey and such if they had a good full year? Or are you saying that they won't produce much honey at all?


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

I prefer local survivor bees, our conditions are similar excluding elevation. I started with carnelians and allow nature to take its course. Brood pattern determines if I cull the queen, I allow nature to determine the rest. I do strive to tip the balance towards carnelian queen bloodlines when I observe carnelian markings. This is a constant battle for me due to the italian's population spring surge overwhelming the sports bar with available drones. inch:


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Sentinel said:


> They are rumored to produce more honey than italians, but my question to you because it is still winter for us, would Carnies be a good choice for producing honey and such if they had a good full year? Or are you saying that they won't produce much honey at all?


I have never heard that Carniolans produce more honey than Italians. I suggest you consider going back and double-checking that statement.

What I am saying, is that for regions where the only significant flow is early in the season, Italian bees, which have carried a larger cluster through the Winter will have a larger field force at the beginning of the season to collect that early nectar. 

Carniolans have the reputation of over-Wintering with a small cluster, and also that their population ramps up quickly on a flow. However, that population growth only starts when a flow starts, and it still takes some time for the population to grow, i.e., regardless of strain, it is still 3 weeks from egg to adult, plus at least another couple of weeks to build a large population since it takes bees to make bees. Consequently, where the only significant flow is early in the season, Carniolans can be caught flat footed in terms of population, and by the time they have ramped up due to the flow, the flow has already peaked and is in decline, meaning that there is little nectar for the now-large field force to collect. Obviously, well-timed feeding by the beek can affect the population growth of both Italians and Carnies to be ready for an early season flow. 

Of course, God is in the details, and if that early flow is long enough, then the flow will still be on when the Carnie population has finally grown big enough to take advantage of it. Italians will be positioned to take advantage of that long flow, too. Also, if there is more than one large flow, the Carnies can take advantage of that second flow. Italians will, again, be positioned to take advantage of that second flow, too. This is all region-specific, so the differences between Italian and Carniolan population dynamics may or may not have a real-world impact on you depending on where you live.

When I see people make the statement that "Carnies need less honey to over-Winter than Italians because of the small Winter cluster," I ask "how much less honey," and I almost never get an answer. 1% less honey? 10% less? 25%? 50%? I interpret the lack of response to mean that the person touting "Carnies are frugal" is just repeating what he heard on the internet, and doesn't really know how much more frugal Carnies are over Italians. If the difference is minor, than the vaunted frugality of Carnies may not be worth putting up with their disadvantages (which includes swarminess, and swarming is a sure way to kill a honey crop) (and BTW, all bee strains have their advantages and disadvantages). So, I think if the "less honey consumed" is important to one contemplating getting Carnies for their frugality, the buyer should find out just how much less so they can gauge if that trait has any practical value to him.

I should also add that there is no magic bullet when it comes to bee strains. As I mentioned above, all strains have their advantages and disadvantages which require intervention by the beekeeper to shape in order to maximize the chances of pulling in a good honey crop. Additionally, since new queens will mate with about a dozen local drones, any pure strain of bee will soon become mutts unless the beek is frequently re-queening with pure-bred queens. Do you want to be buying queens every few years to maintain the purity of your chosen bee strain?

While dabbling in the pure strains of bees is fun, when just starting out I would suggest considering acquiring whatever the local mutt-strain that is used by the local successful (where "successful" is defined as achieving the same goals you want to achieve) beeks, since that is what you will end up with in a few years anyway if you aren't regularly re-queening.

JMHO

You may have already seen this, but here is a basic primer on bee strains:

http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/1.12 copy.pdf



.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>When I see people make the statement that "Carnies need less honey to over-Winter than Italians because of the small Winter cluster," I ask "how much less honey," and I almost never get an answer. 1% less honey? 10% less? 25%? 50%? I interpret the lack of response to mean that the person touting "Carnies are frugal" is just repeating what he heard on the internet, and doesn't really know how much more frugal Carnies are over Italians.

The degree of frugality varies as I'm sure the genetics of what is called a "carnie" varies. I would put the number at between 0% and 400%. A frugal hive will go through the winter on 25 pounds of honey while a "brood rearing fool" of a hive will use up 100 pounds. That's 400% difference.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

MB - thanks for the numbers. A factor of four is indeed significant. Would you say that is typical or an extreme example for pure or close to pure Carniolans?


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Sentinel said:


> I ended up reading many things between on or the other, a huge debate on which does what, but personally what do you guys prefer, what do you guys have in your hives and what is your experience?


I think you hit the nail on the head with your question - In most cases it's a personal preference. For what it's worth, Italian (Buckfast) have withstood some pretty harsh winters, here, over the years. I've observed some fairly "significant" variations _within colonies of all the same breed._ 'Sorry, no specific numbers - just an observation. & Not surprising given all the variables .

If I were to try Carni's *with* my Italians, I might reduce the entrances a bit to ease any concerns about robbing. After a couple years, I'd likely end up with whichever did best for _me_. (maybe a mutt cross breed)


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Sentinel said:


> The only beekeepers close to me are like 2 hours away and they have both.
> For $150 I can get 4 pounds of bee's with 2 queens but they have to be the same type.


So, is that TWO colonies? If so, that is a good price; since they are only 2 pounds, I would start each of the colonies in a 4 or 5 frame nuc, then later in the summer expand to a full-sized box.

I have Italians, which I like (had russians several years ago, which I did not like). Don't know anything about Carnies. Italians can get cranky in a dearth, but I have not found them to be aggressive.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

philip.devos said:


> Italians can get cranky in a dearth, but I have not found them to be aggressive.


I think any bee strain tends towards crankiness in a dearth.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>MB - thanks for the numbers. A factor of four is indeed significant. Would you say that is typical or an extreme example for pure or close to pure Carniolans?

I guess my point is that it is all over the map. I don't think we have any pure Carniolans. So how do you come up with a number? It's really a spread. Also, it's not like it's a bell curve with only a few in the extreme. It's more evenly distributed than that. All in all, though, the concept is that the Carni's wait longer and then build up so fast that they catch up. Whether they catch up at the right moment depends on the climate and the year...


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

> A frugal hive will go through the winter on 25 pounds of honey while a "brood rearing fool" of a hive will use up 100 pounds. That's 400% difference.


That's 120% difference.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Isn't math fun. Well, 100 pounds is 400% of 25 pounds. 100% of 25 pounds would be 25 pounds. So I guess it depends on where we start and what we are defining. But the non-frugal hive is eating 4 times (400%) as much as the frugal one...


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Colobee said:


> For what it's worth, Italian (Buckfast) have withstood some pretty harsh winters, here, over the years. I've observed some fairly "significant" variations _within colonies of all the same breed._ 'Sorry, no specific numbers - just an observation. & *Not surprising given all the variables.*


Especially variable weather. I leave a full deep on the Carnis for my fairly long Winters. So far, that has worked...but, this is the worst Winter I've seen here since 2009 (before I had bees) so it's still a mystery as to whether that will be enough. Some hives that I _think_ are/were Italians were a little light, so I gave them some med. supers that I had previously intended to extract- some may be dead, but that could be for reasons other than having enough stores. Going to be a while before I know- still frigid here and we're due to have another pile of snow dumped on us.


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> Isn't math fun?.


Yes! Math can be curious for sure. I understood your point, though, Michael. I have a package of Carniolans on order. I am really excited to compare and contrast them to my Italians.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

With respect, shinbone said:

I have never heard that Carniolans produce more honey than Italians.

Our observations have been that WITH A GOOD FLOW, everything else being equal, good Italians will out produce good Carnilians. However, with marginal conditions, the Carnis seem to be better scroungers, and seem to do better than the blond bees. With weather conditions the way they have been the last few years, the smart money seems to be on the carnis.

Again, no disrespect intended, shinbone.


crazy Roland


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I like my dumb blond bees just the way nature makes them. They might not bee that smart compared
to the Italians x carnis mutt, but they're my favorite blonde. I have to uncap some honey frames for them to use while
brooding up. Too smart to use up all their honey supply before the flow. That's what happens when you raise the not so smart but frugal blond bees.
The right timing for our early Spring flow here. You can make small nuc hives without the
large population going into winter if you choose to. Then combine the large population to
take advantage of the early flow. Since beekeeping is local anyways and varies from individual to
individual, there is no loss to try both just for one season. Then you can decide which one is better for your management
practices and the local environment. Always order from your local to take advantage of the accumulated bees there.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Roland - no disrespect taken.

It is my understanding that the conventional wisdom is that Italians can pact away more honey than the other common strains. I have not done any testing to verify that. It would not be surprising that certain exceptional non-Italian queens may go against the conventional wisdom, or that there are special circumstances where the Italians will not be the best honey producers.


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

Is it possible that best depends on your climate? Maybe Carnolians fair better in colder climates and Italians better in warmer climates. I'm sure it depends on your goals but if we are discussing generalities (not exceptions) and your goals are to produce honey and/or lots of bees, well, aren't Italians known for large broods and strong honey production?.......so maybe that gives them the edge if you live in a climate where they over-winter successfully. Carnolians may get the upper hand in more northern climates.

Do these generalizations align with your experience?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

shinbone said:


> Roland - no disrespect taken.
> 
> It is my understanding that the conventional wisdom is that Italians can pact away more honey than the other common strains. I have not done any testing to verify that. It would not be surprising that certain exceptional non-Italian queens may go against the conventional wisdom, or that there are special circumstances where the Italians will not be the best honey producers.


Far from scientific, but my Carni hives had capped honey after the summer dearth. The Italians would have starved to death. The Italian hive had about 40-50% more honey than the Carni hives did. Lots of bees in the Italian hive though.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

beepro said:


> . You can make small nuc hives without the
> large population going into winter if you choose to. Then combine the large population to
> take advantage of the early flow.


You seem to be saying that if you put ten frames of bees in two boxes and run two queens (one in each box) and recombine them in spring that they consume fewer stores than if all ten frames were in the same box with half as many queens laying (ie, one) during build up.

I suspect two sets of brood building up for spring eat more than just the brood one queen lays.

What do you think?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

From our experience, if the weather was normal, and hence a normal honey flow, the average Italian hive would beat the average Carni. hive, mostly because they start with more bees. They do consume more winter feed to do so.

It is in the poor honey flow years that the Carnis seem to be better, possibly better at searching out smaller polt of forage, and better at flying in marginal condition of cold and wet. They are also better at rapidly responding to a nectar flow. The Italians are brooded up no matter what, and eat more when times are not so good.

Crazy Roland


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, according to the literature, the Italians are more suitable for
the warmer regions while the darker bees including the Carnis are more
adaptable to the colder regions. That does not mean you cannot have the right mix of the mutt bees from the best of both world. 

Beregondo, I like to do my little bee experiments from mite control to nucs overwintering. So far I have found the type of bees you keep is more important than the hive set up methods. You can keep a large hive population but they still are still frugal on the honey stores. Mine will go for the sugar bricks first before touching the honey stores for the Spring build up. Obviously, having a large hive population (either single or a double queen set up) to overwinter also means a larger consumption on their reserves too during the build up. Just to bee sure, we are talking about the hives combine for the early Spring build up. And not the independent hive that stay in close cluster during the cold winter months. So going back to the basics of the queen selection to head your winter hive is very important.
The advantage of having a side-by-side double queen in a double nuc hives set up is to gauge the winter survival and the Spring build up better. They can share the heat better when there is an occasional early Spring cold snaps. And in case one queen had failed you can remove the dividers to combine into one big nuc hive. This will allow you to have a bigger hive population to take advantage of the early Spring flow if there is any locally. Though dispite the mite infestation where I lost one nuc hive, having a double nucs double queen hive set up enable me to rebuild earlier this year. Because the hive population is still small they are very frugal on the honey stores. Overall, this was a successful experiment last year that needs further refinement.


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## Walter Lawler (Apr 12, 2013)

Aw c'mon, you mean to tell me in this age of technology, that you can't just tell these tiny little creatures EXACTLY what you want from them, go to your smartphone or tablet and program it to be so? There HAS to be an app for that! (Lmao) 

I bought a couple of "itialians" packages a couple of years ago and they took off making honey and brood like gangbusters. I decided to cut down the population so I ordered through the guy I normally do, and all he had was carni queens for sale. Put brood and bees together from both hives, stuck in the queen and left them pretty much alone. It was a late season split I also gave them honey from the other hives. In the fall I gave all some syrup. We had a very cold winter and on the days when the 2 big hives had lots of bees flying the little hive had almost nothing so I figured they were goners. The temp went up in the spring and then plummeted. Later when I went back in the 2 big hives were dead, frozen I believe but not expecting anything, I went into the carni hive, I found them to be alive and building up. All the hives had a lot of honey left, as I had not taken any off. That little carni split was still doing well going in last fall Btw I had to move out here so I gave them to a fellow beek that started when I did and couldn't seem to keep any bees in his boxes. You need to remember, I know pretty much NOTHING so it is just a story. All the stars aligned properly and just the right circumstances were in place.


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