# favorite queen for grafting so far



## Adam Foster Collins

Hey Lauri,

Looking good. I'm with you on wanting things to really get going. We're still a bit chilly here.

Sent you a PM on another issue...

Adam


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## Lauri

I didn't get your PM Adam.


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## sqkcrk

Nice looking queen. What kind is it?


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## Lauri

sqkcrk said:


> Nice looking queen. What kind is it?


Daughter from a swarm queen I collected in 2011 near Mt Rainier.


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## Adam Foster Collins

Nice. I'm going to graft from a collected swarm queen myself. It's booming after a hard winter.

Sent another PM. 

Adam


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## mtndewluvr

Lauri said:


> Daughter from a swarm queen I collected in 2011 near Mt Rainier.


She does look Rainer Beer Brown, no? I just got my eyes on the daughter of my swarm queen from last year which just emerged yesterday...GORGEOUS! I'll see how she does and see if I can manage a few more this season. I love looking at all of your hives...Beeautiful!


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## Lauri

'She does look Rainer Beer Brown, no? '

hee hee, that's good. I do need to name this line.. Something with Mt Rainier in it and to reflect the genetic diversity and vigor.
What was the indian name for Mt. Rainier?


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## mtndewluvr

Lauri said:


> hee hee, that's good. I do need to name this line.. Something with Mt Rainier in it and to reflect the genetic diversity and vigor.
> What was the indian name for Mt. Rainier?


Tahoma...reminds me of a truck. Sounds like a fun game...Name My Queen...and a free daughter to the winner!!!


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## cklspencer

Lauri, what kind of incubator are you using? ALso can you show us more pics of your mating nucs, I need to make more and am looking for some other design ideas.
Thanks


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## Lauri

cklspencer said:


> Lauri, what kind of incubator are you using? ALso can you show us more pics of your mating nucs, I need to make more and am looking for some other design ideas.
> Thanks


http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-2013-Ex...092?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48551ac14c

I've posted a lot of mating nuc photos in the past..don't have time to do it right now. Look through my posts to find more photos and info.


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## AstroBee

Lauri said:


> I did mark two newly hatched virgins with disks.


What are you using for glue? My searching found that titebond II works well. Sounded strange, but well-known breeders are using it.


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## beepro

I use tb-3 for marking my queens. The paint never fall off or faded.
Lauri, how come the temp is set at 98º? I thought the normal temp
is 90 to 96 for a queen incubator. Does it matter with the 2 degree difference?


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## AstroBee

beepro said:


> Lauri, how come the temp is set at 98º?


I think that reads 90, and with the door open its probably right.


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## coopermaple

Nice job Lauri. I just grafted our first batch yesterday. I like your mating nuc setup. Did you make your own frames for them?


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## beepro

Thanks, Astrobee. It is 90.


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## Lauri

I use a pressure sensitive AAE Maxbond super glue made for fetching arrows. I cut a toothpick in half. I use the sharp end of a toothpick to pick almost no glue-rub it on her thorax-then use the cut blunt edge of the toothpick, moisten it in my mouth and pick up the disk-place it *straight* because as _soon_ as it touches, it is permanent.
http://arizonaarchery.com/store/8-max-bond-glue-7-oz-20g.html
I've used it for two years with excellent results. Queens have no reaction to it what so ever.


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## NY_BLUES

Lauri,

I use the same incubator, well the reptipro 6000 which is the same thing in grey. It works really well for keeping a constant temp without hot spots. I like your cage setup, i wish i had seen that before i made a bunch of trays to hold cells that i had to figure out the hard way


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## Eddie Honey

I thought that at first glance too but it is set to 90



beepro said:


> I use tb-3 for marking my queens. The paint never fall off or faded.
> Lauri, how come the temp is set at 98º? I thought the normal temp
> is 90 to 96 for a queen incubator. Does it matter with the 2 degree difference?


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## dphillipm

Eddie Honey said:


> I thought that at first glance too but it is set to 90


I had to go back, and look at the details in the pictures. Everything, even your hive stand to the gravel is perfect!


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## lakebilly

Great vids Lauri. I am going to use screen top feeders like you have. 

Do you use them in your cell starters? Do you have a favorite recipe for your cell starters?


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## Lauri

my cane sugar syrup recipe, besides the water and sugar is about a cup of cider vinegar per 5 gallon bucket and a sprinkle of electrolytes. 

My patty recipe is about 6# mann lakes bee pro, 6# brewers yeast, 25#sugar, 1 quart cider vinegar,2- 3 quarts cold water, electrolytes with vitamins and some essential oils or pro health when I have them.
I have to say, the bees are not interested in syrup or patties with natural sources coming in, but some my queen cells so far are not quite the quality I had last year when they took up my protein patty mix. Thank goodness for the incubator. So easy to cull as soon as they hatch and not waste a mating nuc-then evaluate.


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## WBVC

I am new and would like to know what the things that look like stacked doormats are.


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## Lauri

What photo are you refering to? I'm not seeing anything that looks like that


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## Adam Foster Collins

Lauri said:


> What photo are you refering to? I'm not seeing anything that looks like that


Fourth picture in your original post, on the left. Looks like a stack of cut carpeting or something to the left of the hives on the stand...


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## Sir_Gregory

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Fourth picture in your original post, on the left. Looks like a stack of cut carpeting or something to the left of the hives on the stand...


Thoughs are bottems.



mtndewluvr said:


> Tahoma...reminds me of a truck. Sounds like a fun game...Name My Queen...and a free daughter to the winner!!!


If only I could... But here is a link for the name. http://www.thenewstribune.com/2007/10/08/174144/how-mount-tacoma-bacame-mount.html


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## Mountain Bee

What WBVC is asking about is your archery target directly behind your row of hives.


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## Lauri

Ahhhh. Now I get you. Yes, that is an archery target made of old carpet strips. They glue and compress them, then band them. Stops any arrow and you can pull them out with two fingers. We also use cedar bales and bags filled with shrink wrap plastic for targets.
Notice the swarm trap on top the target?


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## WBVC

and here I thought it was some fancy item for bee keeping


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## WBVC

How does one tell if a Queen cell is good and for that matter if a "hatched" queen is not good and should be culled (I suspect = killed)?

I am far to new to try this sort of thing of now but am very interested in learning so I may be apply what I have learned as time goes on. The incubator and racks of queen cells in those cage looked a great way to manage queen rearing. As someone with limiting arthritis the nuc boxes on the fence looked very practical...and attractively appealing as well.

Thanks for taking the time to post the pics and explanations....much appreciated.


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## Lauri

WBVC said:


> How does one tell if a Queen cell is good and for that matter if a "hatched" queen is not good and should be culled (I suspect = killed)?
> 
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to post the pics and explanations....much appreciated.



They need to be whoppers at birth for a start..no shrimps allowed. And I have had some culls this first few batches. Just not fed well enough. I want to see royal jelly packed into the top of the cell when I place them. You should see it right through the cell cup at the top. 
No abundance of jelly, I don't even let it hatch. 
Now a small capped cell is OK as long as there is royal jelly in it. I've gotten some whopper virgins out of dinky cells. 
I'd rather have a small cell with royal jelly than a big cell that was dry on top.


You are very welcome. Ideas are always good to share. That's why Beesource is amazing.


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## beepro

Lauri said:


> I want to see royal jelly packed into the top of the cell when I place them. You should see it right through the cell cup at the top.


Lauri, I took some pictures of the royal jelly inside the plastic cell. But not sure if this is enough to make some good queens.


Is this what you mean by to the cup at the top?


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## Lauri

Looks great!


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## BeeGhost

Lauri,

I have a swarm queen I picked up a month ago that is very dark like the queen you have in that picture and that swarm has almost two deeps drawn out. She is an absolute laying machine. Before the builders even had a 8" x 6" leaf drawn in the upper deep she had already laid in it and moved back down!! I am going to graft off her on my next round.

I like your pictures!!


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## Joseph Clemens

Lauri said:


> . . . I want to see royal jelly packed into the top of the cell when I place them. You should see it right through the cell cup at the top.
> No abundance of jelly, I don't even let it hatch.
> Now a small capped cell is OK as long as there is royal jelly in it. I've gotten some whopper virgins out of dinky cells.
> I'd rather have a small cell with royal jelly than a big cell that was dry on top. . .


That's all very well when you're in an environment with naturally high relative humidity. But here in the desert Southwest, once our warmer weather arrives, though almost all cells have an abundance of royal jelly before they're capped, and even with my augmenting the humidity level in my cell builder area with a high pressure fogging system, that surplus royal jelly, regularly dries out before the queens emerge. But, as you say, it does seem to be a good indicator for the cells to have an abundance of royal jelly remaining after they're capped.


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## kilocharlie

I knew that was an archery target before I read the post! Oops! I'm tipping my cards. I like excelsior bales for crossbow practice, but fletching glue for queen discs? That's a great idea. (sorry about off-topic)

Glad you are having so much success in such a beautiful environment. Are the frames in your "1/2 Nucs" oriented cross-wise like mating nucs, or long-wise like most beehives? Your bees might come up a bit faster if you used full, 5-frame deep nucleus colonies with more bees. I add 3 or 4 scoops (32 oz drink cups) and 3 frames for open mating, and add 2 more frames right after the queen's laying pattern proves out good. They really take off after they get to 5 frames. They are in a 10-frame box in less than a month if the sage blooms well (last year they had to wait for buckwheat, as the sage didn't happen). The best colonies fill their second box during sumac bloom 6 weeks later, if all goes well.

Beeghost - make a few extra grafts off her for me  I suspect she came from the nuclear lab?


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## WBVC

I have a question about the 1/2 length frames in the divided deep nucs. Is that set up used solely for the purpose of creating queens or what? If the frames don't fit into a regular sized deep box how does one transition the nuc to a regular deep?
I am certain I have just highlighted my lack of knowledge but asking is how I will learn.

Thank you everyone for your ongoing patience and explanations.

Having never be associated with any form of archery that is alos a foreign world to me


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## kilocharlie

WBVC-
5-frame nucleus colonies ("nucs") are the traditional unit for working small, "increaser colonies" into full-strength, 10-frame colonies. They work pretty good like that.

Half- and 1/3- size nucs (usually called "mini-mating nucs" or "Baby nucs") are usually for mating a virgin queen with about 1,500 bees to care and provide for her - it is just a trick that queen breeders use to make LOTS of queens without a lot of bees and honeycomb. The mini- and baby nucs often have mini feeding frames for sugar water in them, too. It usually works, but there can be some mischief, like swarming, doubling up, absconding, freezing to death in late cold fronts, other mishaps. 

Virgin queens are usually put in them as sealed queen cells, before they have hatched. They hatch in a few days, grow up for about a week, then go out on their orienting and mating flights (some go more than once), come home for 2 or 3 days, then begin to lay eggs. Breeders leave them in these mini-mating nucs or baby nucs for about 2 to 3 weeks, then check their egg-laying pattern to see if it is profuse and solid. They are then either sold with package bees, given to 5-frame nucleus colonies to survive over winter and sell the next spring, used for re-queening, or kept to populate new colonies for their own purposes. 

Of course, there are a LOT of variations on these basic guidelines, this is just a "middle-of-the-road" way of doing it. I doubt any two beekeepers do it alike, let alone queen breeders! My own preference is to cut vertical slots in my 10-frame boxes and add 1/4" hive partitions to make three 3-frame compartments for open-mating. This seems to work out pretty well - I get fair numbers of queens, can use any frame that serves the purpose, and I can add way more than 1,500 bees (a 32 oz drink cup of bees) -- I use 3 or 4 such "scoops", and this allows me to leave them in there for up to a month. They also build up quicker, and are ready to go to 5 frame nuc arrangement sooner than mini nucs do.

(*BIG FAT HINT*- for your own uses, try the over-wintered nucleus approach - it usually builds up in population MUCH better than package bees the next year!) The baby nucs would take all year to build up if left by themselves (and they still might not even make it through winter)- it is better to add some frames of brood and enough bees to cover the frames - no extra queens, please - and put them into a 4-frame nuc, a 5-frame nuc, or even an 8-frame box and let them increase through the rest of the spring/summer/early fall. Box size-to-bee population is an issue - the bees need to keep a certain amount of volume warm by shivering, and excess volume costs them more honey.

Good idea to ask - I hope this helps. Oh, and archery is very complicated - you put the arrrow point in front, the nock goes on the string, you pull the string back, then you let it go at someone you don't like...hee hee hee maybe you should ask Lauri.


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## WBVC

"three 3-frame compartments for open-mating"

If you have a box physically divided into 3 compartments each with an opening, have scooped in random bees and they have a queen...do they go out and come back to the opening of their little condo section? Do they not fly back to their original free standing home hive leaving the nuc condo a bit lean on bees?

Once the queen is sold and gone do you then take the condo frames and mix them with larger hive? Again how do you keep the bees with hive you have chosen for them?

I do not have a 3km space to work with so can't move them far away and back again.


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## beepro

What I normally do is to put 2 dividers into the medium hive to separate it into 3 sections. Each
section has 2-3 frame of bees. If you keep the capped broods and young nurse bees either
brush them in or from the same hive then they will not drift back to the original hive. I don't even
move the hive box at all. The same location is fine. After that it is requeen time and waiting for
her mating flight.


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## kilocharlie

Some of my bottom boards are flippable - one side is an IPM screened bottom board for powdered sugar shake testing for varroa mites, the other is a divider-friendly bottom board with moldings into which the hive partitions fit. Each has it's own 1" entry pointing a different direction - the middle compartment points East, the right compartment exits and enters South, the left compartment exits and enters North.

I make 3 narrow inner covers that slip in between the dividers. A standard telescoping top goes over the whole thing.

Now for the kicker...there is also a slot down the middle of the short ends, allowing me to use only one hive partition, and making a 2 x 5-frame double-nuc arrangement. Of course, that means another bottom board, and half-inner covers. Obviously, I love woodwork.

Almost all of my boxes are made like this - 10-frame medium Langstroths with 3 vertical, 17/64" wide (so the 1/4" ply slips easily) x 3/16" deep (half the width of the frame shelf) slots running down the inside of the short ends. So the cool feature is that any box can be used for a standard 10-framer, a 2 x 5-frame double nuc, a 3 x 3-frame mating nuc, or a 7-3 frame queen isolation egg laying box for queen rearing. A 2-gallon Mann Lake feeder and some hive dummies allow me to make very close to ideal volume for bees to live in from 1 to 10 frames (11 frames if I'm using 1.25" wide frames instead of 1.375" wide - closer to original beespace). Additionally all boxes will soon be 6 5/8" mediums, so any frame in any box, and never more that 51 lbs! I love this setup!

I'm in the process of cutting down my deeps into 6 5/8" medium boxes - it goes slow, as I'm building the medium 6 1/4" x 1.25" wide frames and getting them drawn out, phasing out my deep frames. My goal is all medium boxes and all 11-frame medium broods, about half small-cell foundation and half foundationless frames, and 10-frame honey boxes (I'd use 9, but the frames are 1.25" wide - not very good support for heavier honey frames if you're spinning them).

A lot of my boxes now have 6 cork holes in them, for when they are in 3x3 arrangement and mating season gets hot. I do keep a good supply of corks! But I still have to brand my boxes to keep them mine! Go figure.


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## beepro

Isn't the 6 5/8 mediums are for the honey supers? That means
you have to use the shorter frame instead of the standard medium frames
for your set up? But I like the lighter weight for sure.


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## Lauri

More photos to answer questions:
Divided nuc with five half sized deep frames each side. Each has top cover for easyseperation when opening one side or the other. I ran the ledge of the frame shelf on the router 1/4" deeper before assembling to have room for a pollen patty on top. Fired out and stapled the bottom for additional room and attached floor:








Small opening to avoid robbing. I never have trouble with a nuc this size though. The really tiny ones are more at risk. This is equal to 2 1/2 deep full sized frames, but is a better configuration with a warmer center of the colony-due to five frames instead of 2 or 3.









Heres how the bottom looks before stapling on bottom board.


















Brackets to hang on fence. Use machine screws and large washers to hold the eventual heavy weight.









You can see I set the top inner covers on before screwing on the hindges. I really like this positive closure better than the migratory covers I also show in the OP. I just ran out of cedar 3/4x12 planks and had a bunch of migratory covers I wasn't using-so I cut them down.

Screened hole in inner cover for mason jar inverted feeding or ventilation.










Here is a pic of one of the bag targets. It is shade cloth sewn into a bag stuffed with shrink wrap scraps. Works amazingly well and won't rot like those made out of burlap. This has been hung outside for years and shot hundreds of times-80 yards. You miss the target and hit a hive YOU go pull your arrow!


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## kilocharlie

Lauri - Thank you for the photo answers! I like your setup, a very viable, elegant, practical, and convenient system. Well thought-out. I love the tops. I would name it Lauri's Double-Quarter Nuc system, and I would name that queen Lauri's Mt. Rainier Root Beer Queen  You might sell some of your nucs.


Beepro - Yes, I use 3 medium Lang's to equal the honeycomb real estate of 2 deeps. The frames are regular 6 1/4" mediums to go in 6 5/8" Illinois medium boxes - I'm going to black plastic small-cell foundation so I can see eggs and it helps fight mites. Better volume control during "Spring buildup" (November - February increase down here in SoCal, and I use the term "Winter Increase", but it pi$$es off beeks from colder states :lookout: except Floridians who smile and wink), especially when combined with the use of Miller-type hive dummies and frame-type feeders. They never have more than one frame of foundation dead space to heat. The weight is also easier on my shoulders - which aren't the greatest.

'Gotta stay on top of them, though, this system is for beekeepers who inspect at least every 3 weeks, if not more often, like weekly to every 10 days in the spring. Don't want them swarming on me. Done correctly, I get a LOT more increase WAY faster on less honey consumption. Volume control is the "art" part of hive management, and this system is designed to allow maximum control. My best efforts in good years see a 6-way split of the previous year's swarm traps. Some could have gone 8-way split, but I used them for queen rearing support and nuc-making because they were mean AMM's. That queen is still cranking out eggs like an Africanized Honey Bee - she's hit 4,000 eggs per day in the spring for 3 years now. Mean, but sure makes honey!

I do have to explain this to my almond pollination customers - 1 1/2 of my medium frames = 1 deep frame for pricing, and that this is not all that uncommon of a practice among beekeepers (Michael Palmer uses all medium 8-frame boxes and double 4-frame medium nucs, Michael Bush highly recommends using all one size frame, and prefers mediums). The almond folks usually like that my actual counts usually far exceed my estimates, I bring 12 to 14 frames of brood, and they understand that this is just one reason for it.

I consider this system (with the addition of Laidlaw queen intro cages and I.I.) a multiple competitive advantage over most other queen breeder/pollinators. Of course, there are some here on Beesource that have their system down pretty tight, too. Mine is just one of the most versatile, equipment-wise, and goes well with my intensive style of beekeeping. My mentor's system is way more kick-back, but he likes my productivity, and ribs me when I goof up. If I want to kick back, I just add two frames of foundation instead of one foundation and one hive dummy - instant vacation - but not if it could still get cold.


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## Lauri

Mt. Rainier Root Beer! I love it


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## kilocharlie

Now there will be a black market for Mt. Rainier Root Beer Queens...psst! wanna buy some hot queens? I got RRBQ's! 

A cool name IS part of marketing. A buddy of mine took some Nabal avocados to the farmers' market in Malibu, putting up a sign advertising "Malibu Blue Avocados". He sold out in minutes at sky-high prices. People were asking for them for weeks afterwards. Look out, Robert Russell, heeeere come Lauri!


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## Lauri

My horse shoer use to call me Martha Stewart. I told him...Uh, no thanks-I'm not a fan.
So now he says "Martha Stewart aint got S*** on you'
I told him that was OK, LOL

So... I am not exactly a fan of RR, but certainly he did have a great dangle the carrot advertising web site that was hard to resist. That has not gone unnoticed. 
Unfortunately I'm not at the point to sell many queens yet-only locals. And no one pays in advance. I hand you your queens, you pay me. No complications.

I've been very lucky to stumble onto some really impressive genetics early on. Give me a few years to see what I can accomplish and get into production.

After 35 years of breeding livestock..always trying to improve, improve, improve, I realize that if all those years ago I had paid a little more money and started out with better stock I would be *so* much farther ahead.
That's why I bought five Glenn II breeder queens my first year of beekeeping. Bold? You bet. Stupid move? Well, now that they are no longer available and those daughters are some of the shining stars in my yard, I am thankful I got them when I did. Although I was not able to get full use out of them, due to my clumsy beginnings, but I had enough to give me a great base for my queen rearing and plenty of overwintered stock to continue.
And don't forget those swarm queens, especially if they were captured in remote areas away from apiaries.
Bottom line is, genetics matter. You just have to be observant enough to choose those with promise, vigor and all the traits beekeepers want.
Having a few unique specimens to work with is amazing. I am grateful.


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## kilocharlie

Post #46 was entirely tongue-in-cheek, but now that you mention Glenn I.I., please stick with it. I'll seriously keep you in mind as a possible supplier. Were they Hygenic Italians? I hope to get that stock.

Actually, I hope Robert is still feeling OK about himself. What he did was wrong, but the man still has a lot to offer. I'd love to sit down with him and pick his brain for about a week. I'd love to do the same with most of the doctors at UC Davis, Ohio State, Marla Spivak and company, North Carolina State, the USDA Bee Labs (all of them) and a lot of the beeks here on Beesource, especially Barry! Maybe I better get me a ticket to Apimondia...gawd, how many great beeks I'm leaving out???

Kind of makes me wish I could raise Harry Laidlaw, Brother Adam, G.M. Doolittle, Jay Smith, C.C.Miller, Charles Dadant, Amos Root, Lorenzo Langstroth, and others and bring them back for just a few days each in the apiary - could you imagine how good one could get it short order? Just like 35 years of a jump with good stock in the beginning of a breeding program!

While we're in a jovial mood, I wonder if RR could laugh at naming his latest line of Ponzi Queens? I hope so. No offense Robert, you still have some respect out here, no doubt you really know your stuff! I need a good name for my queenies - Malibu Blue Queens? HA!

BTW, it's OK to use the word "ferrier" - we ARE aggies here in the bee biz! Lots of New Yawk City beekeepers would love to learn that a ferrier shoes horses.


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## lakebilly

Kilo, Dude you eat coffee right out of the can don't you? ;-p


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## kilocharlie

ROFLMAO, Lakebilly.:lpf:


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## dphillipm

Lauri said:


> my cane sugar syrup recipe, besides the water and sugar is about a cup of cider vinegar per 5 gallon bucket and a sprinkle of electrolytes.
> 
> My patty recipe is about 6# mann lakes bee pro, 6# brewers yeast, 25#sugar, 1 quart cider vinegar,2- 3 quarts cold water, electrolytes with vitamins and some essential oils or pro health when I have them.
> I have to say, the bees are not interested in syrup or patties with natural sources coming in, but some my queen cells so far are not quite the quality I had last year when they took up my protein patty mix. Thank goodness for the incubator. So easy to cull as soon as they hatch and not waste a mating nuc-then evaluate.


Lauri. I'm trying to raise a few queens for myself. What do you use for electrolytes, and vitamins when feeding? Also when do you put the cells in the incubator, and what do you look for when culling the new queens after they hatch? How long after they hatch do you put them in a mating nuc, and how do you introduce a virgin to her mating hive? Thanks in advance.


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## Lauri

And what a difference feeding makes. My first few grafts this year have not been the quality I had last year. They wouldn't take up syrup or my patties yet. Now they are taking it up and the cells are fabulous.
Here's the electrolyte mix I use is from Valley vet online:








This package makes 120 gallons of livestock strength liquid, so I was very careful at first to just use a tiny bit. Gradually increasing to about 1/4" tsp per five gallon bucket. You can smell the vitamins.
I started using electrolytes after seeing the bees crave the liquid coming out of my fruit tree pots all summer. They will actually eat the soil around the drain holes. They can't seem to get enough, although of course I have plenty of water sources available. They also love the elk hide I have soaking in a water trough with salt and clorox. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq3gd9JvWx4
I usually put the cells in the incubator about day 13 starting from the egg being laid-9 days after grafting. I have also put them in the day after they are capped with just about the same hatch rate. Depends on the weather forecast and if the finisher hive is prone to building comb over the cells.
The queens have to be large and gorgeous when hatched. No shrimps or any abnormalities. I've only had one with a smaller front leg.
And this will be the topic of another thread, but these queens have an obvious disposition right when hatched. Some are relaxed, some area little more active, some are obviously agressive right from the start. Runny, wings taunt, even giving me a nip when I mark them. stands to reason hives headed by those queens will likley be a bit hot..but could be great producers too. I just keep notes and observe at this point. No culling yet for personality traits.

I direct release them into the nucs as soon as possible..within an hour or so. I've never had one not accepted. They appear to have no scent when newly hatched. I put them on the top of the frames and the bees totally ignore them, except one or two that will feed them. You'll see the queen with her tongue out begging to be fed. The longer you wait, the older they are the more risk you have of non acceptance. After 12+ hours the bees will almost get their hackles up a bit with a direct release.
Of course some hatch over night..they are fine too-but get them in first thing in the morning. But they need to eat pretty much right away. you have to feed them or they'll die quickly.

Also with my protein patty recipe, Ed at Mann lake said changed their supplier for the brewers yeast and it is NOT the quality of the old supplier, It dosn't even smell or taste like brewers yeast and the patties have a poor texture when mixed. It is yellow and bitter. I am eliminating it in my recipe.


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## WBVC

Do you build all the boxes with the dove tail type joins (not certain that is the correct term)? or do you buy them precut and modify from there? Is it a disaster waiting to happen to have boxes glues and screwed together without the dove tail joins or just convention?


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## kilocharlie

The joint is called a "Finger Box Joint" and is preferred because it remains fairly strong even after being left out in the weather, while being easier to make than a dovetail joint. Use the search box to find several old threads about how to make FBJ's - there are a lot of great photos and discussions, as that question pops up fairly often. Some great youtube videos, too - lots of different machines have been invented.


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## Lauri

So here's an example of a better fed cell. As I said, until just a few days ago there was just enough of a flow the bees wouldn't take up any of my syrup or pattys. My queens cells grafted 2 weeks prior were substandard compared to what I am use to producing. Now they are taking up my feed and the cells are a LOT better. Wax is light, cells full of jelly, cell size is still smallish, but better:









You can see the wax on these cells below are a darker yellow. This graft was finished in a different hive and fed differently. They took up a protein patty while finishing these cells, but I didn't give them my syrup recipe because they had lots of honey and nectar and were doing some spotty backfilling in the brood nest. The size of the cells are better-you can see my fingers behind the frame for size reference.










Both these frames were grafted from the queen in the original Post.


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## beepro

Thanks you, Lauri for the updates.
Are these the standard size cells to get the bigger
queens from?


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## ThatBe

Lauri, are your mating nucs on hanging brackets or do you attach the boxes directly to your fence board? Great idea!
Anne


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