# Sideliner Profitability Study



## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Looks good, don't forget new equipment cost (even though I make my own) and treatment costs. Its the small red entries that tend to un-noticably add up quickly.

I've found my best estimates for the year tend to always fall on the conservative side  So double your cost values


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I've currently accounted for labor, mileage (or gas), pollen sub, sugar, treatments, land rent, bottles/labels, queens, "misc. expense" and 10% replacement of woodenware. 

The five things I've listed though, not too sure on that. Think they are accurate?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Do you already have all the equipment and storage space you need for operating on a larger scale? I'm thinking of Bobcat, pallets, automated uncapper, storage vessels etc.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Specialkayme said:


> Advice/critiques are welcome.
> 
> 1. How far away (in miles) is your average outyard (either from home, or from each other, such that to perform a total visit on 100 hives, how many miles would need to be driven), and how many hives do you keep at each out yard?
> 2. How many trips, on average per year, do you make to each outyard?
> ...


#1 - My yards are 12 miles in each direction. Some beekeepers I know run 50 miles.

#2- Typically we work the yards every two weeks

#5 - most all hives are set up to pull honey


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Do you already have all the equipment and storage space you need for operating on a larger scale?


All formulated into it so far, yes. Acquisition of real estate and building for storage, down payment and rent, equipment usage (bobcat) annualized over the life of the equipment rather than up front (modest downside), all woodenware (pallets included) and extracting equipment accounted for (at least to start off).


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Ian said:


> #1 - My yards are 12 miles in each direction. Some beekeepers I know run 50 miles.
> 
> #2- Typically we work the yards every two weeks
> 
> #5 - most all hives are set up to pull honey


Thanks Ian. 

#2 - I'm assuming it's closer to weekly almost during spring, but closer to monthly during winter, correct?

#5 - So roughly 100% of your hives are production hives? Even those you replace in the spring from deadouts?


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

I guess I would wonder where your nuc sales are coming from....??? Production hives, are you raising queens or buying queens? Also, retail honey, or wholesale honey?? More often the 60lb honey is wholesale prices vs. retail in the smaller containers. Up to you where you spend the time to make the extra dollars...


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

All beekeeping is local.

The expenses incurred are in a good share related to the way one is attempting to squeeze money off of the bees back.

To give an example.

One could produce packages for sale locally or haul them afar to distant markets.

When we decided to jump into that particular subsection of the package market the cash outlay of almost 60k for equipment to ensure the bees arrived afar in great shape was 6,000,000 additional pennies beyond what the "local" producer/ retailer would have done. 

There are so many variations of ways to scam a buck of a bee that anyone who thinks they can peg down a one size fits all answer is highly misinformed. 

In each situation whatever way one chooses the expenses need to be less than the expenses... Hopefully!!!!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We gauge by time, must be to the first yard in 40-45 minutes. The next yards must all be about 4 miles away. 

Like Ian, we visit each yard about every 2 weeks, starting late March thru Sept. NO VISITS IN WINTER!!!

Like Ian, most all hives are set up to pull honey. Equalizing/requeening eliminates dinks. 

Zero honey sales in 1lb, 2lb, 5lb, 60lb.

Crazy roland


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Brandy said:


> I guess I would wonder where your nuc sales are coming from....???


Sideliner. You aren't talking about producing 2,000 nucs. If you made up 20 extra nucs you could sell them at $130 each easy by putting an ad in craigslist. Not a concern. 



Brandy said:


> Production hives, are you raising queens or buying queens?


Buying.



Brandy said:


> Also, retail honey, or wholesale honey??


Both.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Roland said:


> Zero honey sales in 1lb, 2lb, 5lb, 60lb.


To the professional beekeeper, that makes sense. To the sideliner, it doesn't.

If you are operating 50-100 hives and pulling off 70 lbs of honey each on average per year (which is too high for my area) selling it at $2.10 per pound you'll make $7-15k a year. Not enough to cover the sugar, pollen, treatments and gas (let alone time). 

The professional can do pollination. The sideliner can't (too much time away from the bill paying job). So they have to spend the time doing the retail sales. 

The study is based on sideliner activities, not commercial.

But thank you for the input. Helpful. I didn't think I'd be as close to my estimates as I am.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Specialkayme said:


> Thanks Ian.
> 
> #2 - I'm assuming it's closer to weekly almost during spring, but closer to monthly during winter, correct?
> 
> #5 - So roughly 100% of your hives are production hives? Even those you replace in the spring from deadouts?


It all depends on the job at hand, I figure on two week rounds. Feeding requires visits sooner, queen work requires immediate visits. Then there are fill in work jobs like mowing and moving done I between rounds. 

Pretty much all my hives are set up to collect honey as the flows arrive. Big small, does not matter, they bring it in and it has to stay out of the nest


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## lupester (Mar 12, 2008)

Specialkayme said:


> To the professional beekeeper, that makes sense. To the sideliner, it doesn't.
> 
> If you are operating 50-100 hives and pulling off 70 lbs of honey each on average per year (which is too high for my area) selling it at $2.10 per pound you'll make $7-15k a year. Not enough to cover the sugar, pollen, treatments and gas (let alone time).
> 
> ...


I sell my wholesale for $5-$6 a pound. I dont want to make $2/lb then I would have to produce 3 times the honey.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

lupester said:


> I sell my wholesale for $5-$6 a pound.


You _wholesale_ for $5-6 a pound? I retail for $7, and most places I've seen offer between $1.80-3.00 for wholesale.

Where are you getting $5-6 a pound from?


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## red (Jan 15, 2013)

I work a full time job, have a seasonal biusness and run 100 hives for pollination and honey. Next year I plan on doing 200 hives. I also still find time to go hunting and fishing. You just need to use your time wisely and know how to work.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

first & formost Do you enjoy keeping the bees? When my father first started with 5 hives then to 100 shortly after it was for him an adventure and escape from his other business. ( retail/ wholesale seafood with 40 + employees) he could be out on his own and the rest & relaxation made life better for him, (So you may want to put that in your profit.)

over a couple of years he found a way to make a profit because he loved the work.

Good luck


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

A couple of things I didn't give enough consideration to was the handling of drums of both honey and feed. There is a limit to the number of pails you can efficiently handle and store. How are you going to move drums, melt drums, pump from drums, get them on and off a truck.

I find that my most precious resource doing this while working another job is time. Find ways to make all processes more efficient. For example, I balked at the price of the Nassenheider fill-up/Mann Lake EZ-fill, but can't imagine living without it now.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

It is hard to win a two front war. Focus on one front, then the other. If this is a sideliner exercise, why are you applying commercial restraints? Yes, you do not make as much money selling wholesale, but if you grow bees and sell wholesale to buy equipment, you may actually get to the 500 hive threshold faster than selling retail. Remember, it is easier having too much honey to sell, than trying to sell honey you do not have. Run the math, see what happens.

Crazy Roland


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

i don't know your situation but here i have had a harder time finding locations than i originally expected. In my sideliner plan that has become the current bottleneck. It hasn't stopped me, but it has made growth slower than expected.


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## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

Remember, it is easier having too much honey to sell, than trying to sell honey you do not have. Run the math, see what happens.

Crazy Roland[/QUOTE]


That is so true


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

During the winter, our hives are 1 hour and two hours from our home. In the summer, we move them from Texas to North Dakota and the hives are within 30 miles or less from the farm.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Ian said:


> #5 - most all hives are set up to pull honey


Well then, I guess the better question is how many, in percentage form, of the hives you finish with in year one are able to produce honey from in year two?

Example-
Say I start off with 100 colonies, purchased in July. Honey flow for me is in April. So I overwinter the 100 hives, and have a 30% loss over the winter (probably a hive estimate, but we'll go with it). That leaves me with 70 hives. Lets say that I take those 70 surviving hives and feed pollen and sugar water to stimulate brood rearing early, and by early March I split the 70 hives, making 140 colonies (70 full colonies, 70 five frame nucs). Assuming I sell the overage (40 nucs) and use the remaining supply to repopulate my losses, leaving me with 100 colonies left over by April 1. For estimate purposes, and based on prior experience, is it safe to assume that if I equalize the brood on April 1 between those 100 colonies I'll be able to pull honey at, or near, the per hive average? Or is it more likely that the 30 nucs I created don't grow fast enough to utilize the honey flow as well as the 70 full size colonies can? Additionally, what percentage of the hives would you expect to just not really grow (become dinks, as Mr. Palmer puts it)?


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Must admit I still well behind breaking even after my second summer and can't see pulling ahead for some time. I hope things will level out when I stop needing more wooden ware

I think folks who are on the 2nd or third generation have the right idea


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

WBVC said:


> Must admit I still well behind breaking even after my second summer and can't see pulling ahead for some time. I hope things will level out when I stop needing more wooden ware
> 
> I think folks who are on the 2nd or third generation have the right idea


you are no different than anyone else who starts from scratch and is being honest about it. it's hard work but you'll get there.
when I turned that corner boy did it feel good, and now I save nearly every cent of profit that doesn't go back into the bees for the rainy days.

maybe those 2nd or 3rd gen types aren't as cheap as us scratch starters, but maybe they are?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

clyderoad wrote;

maybe those 2nd or 3rd gen types aren't as cheap as us scratch starters, but maybe they are? 


Can't speak for them, but some of us 5th and 6th gen are even cheaper. We are cycling out equipment from the 1930's.

Crazy Roland
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Roland, I was hoping you saw that! 
there are a few more who I expect to chime in soon as well.
are their no hipster multi gen beekeepers?

oh yeah, I'll take those 30's boxes.
clyderoad


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

WBVC said:


> I hope things will level out when I stop needing more wooden ware.


You NEVER stop needing more wooden ware! :lookout:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Actually, they are telescoping roofs, and the sheet galv. goes back out with new wood in below. The deeps from the 1940's are still in service, but since they are only lap joints, will be the nest to go.

Crazy, cheap, Roland


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

WBVC said:


> Must admit I still well behind breaking even after my second summer and can't see pulling ahead for some time. I hope things will level out when I stop needing more wooden ware


I haven't done the math yet, but I am finishing my 3rd year of selling honey. I'm done increasing other than odds and ends like nuk supers as far as wooden ware goes, and some other items to make work easier. I hope to see a profit this year, even if it's small. I also think that much of the honey money was going back into the wooden ware. Plus, I got a very nice extractor last year in December for a chunk of money. 

I have enough woodenware for 35 complete hives and have 30 active hives, including nuks. So am I a true sideliner? Not sure. I feel mostly hobbyist as the beekeeping is my passion. Harvesting and selling is work, even if it's a good work. It's the honey thing that I want to get paid for, if that makes sense. If it doesn't happen in '14, I believe it will in '15 as I have a much stronger customer base going into '15.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Specialkayme said:


> I'm creating a spreadsheet to study the profitability of starting a sideliner beekeeping business. The spreadsheet, in a sense, incorporates a number of numerical values to create an "up front cost," a yearly sales (income) projection, and a budget (including a yearly expense projection), and compares the projected net profit to the "up front costs" to create a "return on investment" (in years) number. All of this compares the numbers based on a 100, 250, and 500 hive number operation. For projection purposes, it's assumed that I'm only operating under honey and excess nuc sales. No pollination, wax sales, queen sales, package sales, propolis sales, or apitherapy sales. All are possible, but for projection purposes I'm only considering honey and nucs right now.
> 
> The problem is, as I've been operating as a hobbyist, alot of the information I'm putting down (some as far as sales, some as far as time estimates) are best guesses at best. So, I figured I would open up some of those "best guesses" to the forum. Perhaps you could tell me if some of my estimates are way off or not. Advice/critiques are welcome.
> 
> ...


Do you consider the hives that are used for increase/replacement to be "production hives"?

Will the driving distance be further per hive as the numbers of hives increase?

How much time will be spent selling honey/bees?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

To Bevy. "Sideliner" seems to be an arbritary title, donned and doffed by some, and assigned by others. Are you: reporting your income and expenses on your taxes; keeping track of your costs; balancing the value of purchases against their cost; Making a profit or close to it.
If you are doing these things, then I think you can cloak yourself in the the mantle of "sideliner".


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

dsegrest said:


> Do you consider the hives that are used for increase/replacement to be "production hives"?


Yes and no.

Overall, I'm doing it based on three hive number bench-marks: 100, 250 and 500 hives. It assumes that I have this bench-mark number of hives starting on January 1, that in January and February I lose 30% (overwintering loss), in March I split all hives, and any amount I get over the bench-mark number are sold as nucs. Of the remaining bench-mark number, I'm assuming a given percentage of those hives will be "production hives."

To give you an example: On the 100 hive bench-mark, January 1 = 100 hives, March 1 = 70 hives, April 1 = 100 hives and 40 nucs (sold), of those 100 hives only 80% will be production hives.

It assumes that _some_ of the splits will turn into production hives, but not all of them. It also assumes that some of the original hives that made it out of winter don't split properly, or something happens. 

True question is whether 80% is an accurate number.



dsegrest said:


> Will the driving distance be further per hive as the numbers of hives increase?


Not per hive. Mileage will increase, but maintain under the same "per hive" estimate.

Theoretically, the yards will grow in a radius from the home base, not in a linear line. For example, if yard 1 is located 7 miles from the home area, and yard 2 is located 10 miles away from yard 1, that doesn't mean that yard 2 is 17 miles away from the home base.



dsegrest said:


> How much time will be spent selling honey/bees?


Not included. I'm well aware that this is a significantly under-estimated variable. I simply don't have enough experience selling at that type of volume to have a good understanding on how much time is expended on a per pound basis.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

WBVC said:


> Must admit I still well behind breaking even after my second summer and can't see pulling ahead for some time. I hope things will level out when I stop needing more wooden ware
> 
> I think folks who are on the 2nd or third generation have the right idea


A basic principle of business planning is allowing for plateaus. A growing business, assuming similar efficiencies of management will almost always make less percentage of profit than a static business.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> To Bevy. "Sideliner" seems to be an arbritary title, donned and doffed by some, and assigned by others. Are you: reporting your income and expenses on your taxes; keeping track of your costs; balancing the value of purchases against their cost; Making a profit or close to it.
> If you are doing these things, then I think you can cloak yourself in the the mantle of "sideliner".


Yes to all your questions. I started reporting profit and loss to income tax in 2012. The year before all I did was add sales to an income tax line for hobbyists because it was only a few hundred dollars and at that time I didn't know how much increase I wanted to do, or could do.

I was running with a 2 frame manual extractor with 15 or so hives at that time (not all producers) and knew any more increase would be far too much work. I started watching Craigslist and got a very good deal. It's a one season old 9/18 motorized adjustable speed Mann Lake in perfect condition for $700. With my foundationless frames, it is perfect. That was a happy day for me. A few months later the fellow offered me 15 mediums with assembled frames and 5 migratory lids at an awesome price. Those boxes put me at all I needed for my hives. 

I am continually finding ways to save money with beekeeping. That alone brings a great deal of satisfaction.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Bevy, sounds like you are a serious sideliner to me.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Bevy, sounds like you are a serious sideliner to me.


I can't see 500 hives as being a "sideliner" unless you are like my wife. She retired and now she only works 40 hours a week.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

dsegrest said:


> I can't see 500 hives as being a "sideliner"


I think the true question is whether bees are your _sole_ source of income, or if it's a _supplemental_ source of income.

To me, I believe 500 hives is something I can use to supplement my current income, relying heavily on the employment of others in the bee business while also working less at my current job. But anything above that will require so much of my time and focus it isn't likely to be a source of supplemental income. 

Maybe that number is closer to 300 or 350. I don't know. It's all for estimation purposes anyway. Determining the break even point.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I am really glad you started this thread. I too, would like to become a sideliner in a few years. I have people helping with my regular business and it does not demand much time unless I want to increase it. (I don't). I even have time to goof off on BS instead of working.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Hopefully I can find out one of my assumptions is off. Right now the numbers aren't looking too good . . . .


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Specialkayme said:


> Hopefully I can find out one of my assumptions is off. Right now the numbers aren't looking too good . . . .


I am only 68, I should be able to break-even by the time I'm 80.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

One thing that would concern me is whether I could reliably get 70 queens by March 1. I don't think that the timing works without buying queens. Also, I've been raising my own queens since 2007 since a pretty good percentage of queen that I bought 30-70% didn't turn out very good. Particularly early queens. Poor queens will put a pretty big kink in your plans.

I now make my increase during the summer. So in your position I would make up 140 hives in the summer and lose some over winter. Sell the excess in the spring. I don't consider myself a sideliner although I net (report to the IRS) about $4000 per year. Most from honey sales, but I don't do the selling myself. I pay 20% to have it sold at farm markets. Best money I never got.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

beedeetee said:


> One thing that would concern me is whether I could reliably get 70 queens by March 1. I don't think that the timing works without buying queens.


I'm not planning on making splits on March 1. Sometime between March 1 and March 30th. The sooner the better. But, that's the time everyone around here makes splits anyway. I'm not worried about that.



beedeetee said:


> Poor queens will put a pretty big kink in your plans.


A) That would be a big kink in ANYONE'S plans. Let's be honest.

B) Not as much as I think you are estimating. Keep in mind that the queens purchased in March go to both nucs that are sold and nucs that are used to replace deadouts. Queens are purchased later in the year (May usually) to requeen colonies. Using the 100 hive mark, if 70 make it through winter and 30 nucs are created and kept to replace deadouts, if 50% of the nucs fail due to queen issues, I still have 15 nucs that worked and 70 hives, making 85, which still exceeds my 80% estimate. Getting a 50%+ failure on queens is possible, but not something I would consider likely or common. 



beedeetee said:


> I now make my increase during the summer. So in your position I would make up 140 hives in the summer and lose some over winter.


Not possible in this area. Any split made after June 1 is a gonner. The dearth hits, robbing starts, and the hive is lost. If I did what you suggested: 
1. I'd have 70 hives that start on the honey flow
2. If 80% of those hit the mark, that's 56 hives that produce
3. If in June I make splits, and have 140 hives, I'll lose 30% of the splits, leaving me with 119 hives going into winter
4. With a 30% loss I'm at 83 hives coming out of winter.

At that rate, I have 56 hives that produce honey, and I have no nucs to sell in spring, but would end with 13 "extra" colonies.

But if I kept with my strategy:
1. I'd have 70 hives that start on the honey flow
2. I split in March, making 140 hives. 40 are sold as nucs (income) 
3. Then I have 100 hives going into the flow. If 80% of those hit the mark, that's 80 hives that produce
4. By giving the 100 hives all of April, May and June to build up reserves to make it through the dearth and robbing season, I'm much more likely to have darn close to 100 hives going into winter
5. With a 30% loss I'm at 70 hives coming out of winter. And the cycle continues.

This way, 80 hives produce surplus honey and I sell 40 nucs. That's a 42% increase in honey production and a 207% increase in colonies/nucs available for sale.


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## whitebark (Jul 14, 2004)

Specialkayme said:


> I think the true question is whether bees are your _sole_ source of income, or if it's a _supplemental_ source of income.
> 
> To me, I believe 500 hives is something I can use to supplement my current income, relying heavily on the employment of others in the bee business while also working less at my current job. But anything above that will require so much of my time and focus it isn't likely to be a source of supplemental income.
> 
> Maybe that number is closer to 300 or 350. I don't know. It's all for estimation purposes anyway. Determining the break even point.


If 500 only supplements your income, you either need a better honey production area or need to work on marketing. This # of hives could easily serve as your main income.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

whitebark said:


> This # of hives could easily serve as your main income.


If you went into pollination contracts, I would agree with you. Based on honey production I don't think so. I've run the numbers.


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## whitebark (Jul 14, 2004)

Specialkayme said:


> If you went into pollination contracts, I would agree with you. Based on honey production I don't think so. I've run the numbers.


I guess it depends on your area etc. for how your numbers work out. Up here I 8 bee yards within a 30 mile radius, get 100 lbs/hive and sell at for ~ $5/lb. 

I did the pollination thing and the thing that gets me with that is the investment in better trucks, time to move, and often missing honey flows because you are pollinating a crop with lower yields. 

The thing about this board, is the broad geography, my situation is vastly different than those just 150 miles away on the prairies.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

This thread is becoming very similar to one started recently where there were 4 choices going forward.

Maybe it would help to figure a way to make the present 20 or 40 hives, or whatever it is, productive before making all these baseless projections. Something like, what do I need to do to generate $500 minimum revenue from each hive I have now? Do that for a few years and then plug in some useful numbers.
I shoot for revenue of much more than $500/hive or it's not worth running them. I'd be better off with 3-4 for my own honey.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

whitebark said:


> Up here I 8 bee yards within a 30 mile radius, get 100 lbs/hive and sell at for ~ $5/lb.


National average is roughly half that. 56.6 pounds per hive in 2013, to be more precise.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> Maybe it would help to figure a way to make the present 20 or 40 hives, or whatever it is, productive before making all these baseless projections.


I don't think it's unreasonable at all to ask very specific questions in on averages, estimates, and numbers in helping me to create my own budget, proforma and estimates on growth. 

If you aren't interested in helping contribute toward that, so be it. But please don't try to hinder my progress in determining whether financially it makes sense in contributing several hundred thousand dollars and countless hours to a venture in order to see some form of a return.

After all, it was you who advised me:


clyderoad said:


> Writing a business plan for your beekeeping may help with a solution going forward.


And then again:



clyderoad said:


> 50-100 hives is an investment in both time and equipment/bees. It is well worth putting forth the effort to plan the program before hand. I suggest a realistic business plan to map out the possibilities going forward.


Why would you advise me to plan it all out, then when I do, tell me my estimates are baseless and worthless?

With all do respect, if you can contribute to my questions on numbers and estimates, please do. If not, please allow others to try and help me.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

The jump between 20-40 hives and making them productive, and trying to project the numbers for 10x that amount before the 20-40 are profitable is Grand Canyon wide. You maybe feeling the frustration of that exercise now.
This is not the first time my contribution has been dismissed by you. Do you have an issue with views that are not your own?

Plan and Learn and Work on how to make 20-40 hives profitable given your location. If you can't do that then don't waste your "several hundred thousand dollars" on a pipe dream.

Your questions on numbers and estimates are unique to your specific area and circumstances. No one can answer them for you but you.
Create a solid foundation to build upon so you limit your risk.

Forum members have responded unhindered by anyone except the OP'er and hopefully for your purposes will continue to do so.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> Do you have an issue with views that are not your own?


I have an issue with asking question 1 and receiving an answer to an unasked question.

If I asked you how to change the brakes on my car, I wouldn't expect for you to tell me to drive the car around and make sure the transmission is operating correctly.

If you can contribute to the question asked, please do so. If you feel you need to comment on other matters, respectfully keep them to yourself. Your "contributions" that don't address the question at hand have been, and will continue to be dismissed.



clyderoad said:


> Forum members have responded unhindered by anyone except the OP'er and hopefully for your purposes will continue to do so.


The responses have been appreciated, and hopefully they continue to provide me a better understanding of anything I lack a complete understanding of. Most of these members times are limited and valuable, and it is appreciated that they take the time to assist me.

If you think I'm hindering the responses, you are welcome to move on. Plenty of other threads for you to comment on.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Let's try this again: I said
"Your questions on numbers and estimates are unique to your specific area and circumstances. No one can answer them for you but you."

Pretty simple. It's been echoed by others. Maybe you should listen.

I'd like to expand on this but tonight, in particular, is not the night for it and my time is limited and valuable.
You're welcome.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Specialkayme said:


> So I overwinter the 100 hives, and have a 30% loss over the winter (probably a hive estimate, but we'll go with it).


With this being your first year overwintering 100 hives, I don't think 30% is a high estimate - you also need to allow for losses between July and winter - superseder failure, queen loss during treatment, losses to varroa/viruses, losses to fall combines. You state in a later email that summer splits aren't practical in your area, so you probably won't go into winter with 100. I would allow for a 10% loss before winter and then a 30% winter loss.



Specialkayme said:


> That leaves me with 70 hives. Lets say that I take those 70 surviving hives and feed pollen and sugar water to stimulate brood rearing early, and by early March I split the 70 hives, making 140 colonies (70 full colonies, 70 five frame nucs). Assuming I sell the overage (40 nucs) and use the remaining supply to repopulate my losses, leaving me with 100 colonies left over by April 1. For estimate purposes, and based on prior experience, is it safe to assume that if I equalize the brood on April 1 between those 100 colonies I'll be able to pull honey at, or near, the per hive average? Or is it more likely that the 30 nucs I created don't grow fast enough to utilize the honey flow as well as the 70 full size colonies can? Additionally, what percentage of the hives would you expect to just not really grow (become dinks, as Mr. Palmer puts it)?


This again seems overly optimistic. Assuming 70 colonies make it, their strengths will vary and even with feeding you may not get a split out of each one. If your flow is in April, you would need queens in early March not late March. 3 or 4 weeks will make a huge difference at this time of year.

Be conservative in your estimates, with no experience keeping bees at this scale there is a big learning curve making this jump in scale. It is easy to make the numbers look like they work in your favour. Not long ago, I made the jump from 8 colonies to 60 colonies and even with a good mentor there is/was a big learning curve. To greatly increase your margins as a sideliner, sell your honey packed - either retail or wholesale. Unless you are in a great honey producing area, it hard to turn a profit selling by the barrel with >100 hives.

I hope this helps


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

zhiv9 said:


> I would allow for a 10% loss before winter and then a 30% winter loss.


Wise suggestion.



zhiv9 said:


> Assuming 70 colonies make it, their strengths will vary and even with feeding you may not get a split out of each one.


True, but some colonies may not produce a nuc, others may produce 2 or 3. 



zhiv9 said:


> It is easy to make the numbers look like they work in your favour.


Actually, quite the opposite. I'm having a hard time showing I can break even based on my estimates with any number of hives less than 300 (roughly). Might be accurate. Might be some of my expenses are estimated a little too pessimistic. Don't know yet.



zhiv9 said:


> To greatly increase your margins as a sideliner, sell your honey packed - either retail or wholesale. Unless you are in a great honey producing area, it hard to turn a profit selling by the barrel with >100 hives.


Currently, I'm projecting sales in 1 lb, 2 lb, 5 lb, and 60 lb containers. No barrels.



zhiv9 said:


> I hope this helps


Greatly. Thanks.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

2014 # are in. $111 per hive for expense. Avg. honey production is 131 per hive. wholesale off at $2.75-3.15 a lb. retail 10% of crop at $8-12 a lb. Still an out of control hobby. Only second generation honey producer, but still run equipment that is over 80 years old. 

Great to have a hobby that makes more then my wife can spend.:digging::digging:


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

The Honey Householder said:


> $111 per hive for expense.


That's starting from pkgs on drawn comb?


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## FollowtheHoney (Mar 31, 2014)

Great to have a hobby that makes more then my wife can send.:digging::digging:[/QUOTE said:


> Hey! I resemble that comment


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Specialkayme. I started w/2 hives 09. did some math & thought I would go big or stay home. I have found that after getting to 80 hives there are a lot of variables that make "an average" elusive. Thanks for this post I hope to get some revelation as to what I may have missed because I can't quit.
The best advice I have read so far is to make a few profitable & grow with that approach. Having large numbers fail makes it hard to get out of bed. I am hoping to get back to 80 -100 hives shortly w/a proven manager/mentor frugal approach. My grandfather ( & probably yours) use to say..."take care of your pennies & your dollars will take care of themselves."
Again thanks for the post & those who are well intentioned with their input.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

The Honey Householder said:


> 2014 # are in. $111 per hive for expense. Avg. honey production is 131 per hive. wholesale off at $2.75-3.15 a lb. retail 10% of crop at $8-12 a lb.


Not bad!

I'm estimating between $179-261 per hive for expenses, depending on whether or not I need a dedicated building (mortgage), and depending on the number of hives (economies of scale and all). I was also estimating that 35% of honey sales would be retail. Perhaps high on that percentage.

Thanks for sharing!


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I have a dedicated area of 12'x24' extracting room + 10'x12'x10' tall shed for equipment. I think I could run 300 hives with that.
What # of hives are you running now & what is your P&L averages over how long?

Just a thought; Put your plan on here with your experience, your P&L sheets for the time you have been doing it & see how many of the long term beeks here would invest in your business.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>I have a dedicated area of 12'x24' extracting room + 10'x12'x10' tall shed for equipment. I think I could run 300 hives with that.

I have an extracting room 12X28 in which I also store empty honey supers in winter for 100+ hives, and additional shared space, and it is all very crowded all the time except when the supers are on the hives.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Odfrank, I have enough equipment for 200+ hives, some is stacked on pallets outside. sorry I didn't mention that. I would expand my not being used inventory shed to a 16'x20'x10' if the profits would allow. I for sure could use an expansion of another 33 frame extractor that would fit in my honey room if/when I get to 300 hives.
Specialkayme. Paying employees is something I do know a little about. I am negotiating with an experienced beek that I trust to manage my bees for a percentage of the net. I can work the bees when I can, & expand. I don't know what you would have to pay laborers that know what they are doing down there, but it hasn't proved worth it to anyone that I have ever talked with.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

lakebilly said:


> What # of hives are you running now & what is your P&L averages over how long?


25 as of last count. I don't know how many are still alive as of now.

Unfortunately I didn't operate the bees as an independent business in years past, so I don't have P&L's or averages to work off of. I could probably go back and look at equipment costs, packages, nucs, bottles, ect. over the past few years, but I didn't keep track of time, mileage (or gas), sugar/feed, or treatments fully. Most of my equipment was built by myself in the past few years, so any "cost" wouldn't include time. Not very helpful (either in sharing, or using as estimates moving forward).



lakebilly said:


> Just a thought; Put your plan on here with your experience, your P&L sheets for the time you have been doing it & see how many of the long term beeks here would invest in your business.


I wish I could. That would be fantastic. But, any P&L's that I could recreate would only be a partial picture.

I also took about half of the hives I've operated in years past and used them for queen rearing, experiments, ect. So my "per hive" honey yields wouldn't bee too accurate. If I was operating it as a business, it would be a different story. 

I could maintain P&L's for this year, and likely will, to see how close I am. But it would take 2 or 3 years before I could really see if what I had budgeted was accurate. And I don't know how accurate my P&L's on 25-50 hives would be compared to a 100-500 budget.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

lakebilly said:


> I don't know what you would have to pay laborers that know what they are doing down there, but it hasn't proved worth it to anyone that I have ever talked with.


Something I was concerned about. Thanks for the honesty.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

odfrank said:


> I have an extracting room 12X28 in which I also store empty honey supers in winter for 100+ hives


I currently have a 10'x18' storage shed that works well for storage of equipment and an extractor. I'm in the middle of building a 16'x16' storage building to use as a woodworking shop, and part may work as equipment storage as well, which would clear up some space in the smaller shed.

Eventually, I planned on tearing down the 10'x18' shed and replacing it with a 24'x24' garage. Between that and the 16'x16' building, I think I would be in good shape to operate around 100 hives. But anything more than that will likely require a larger building. So I'm budgeting the cost of a 2,500 square foot building, again for estimate purposes. If I can get away with the 16'x16' and the 10'x18' buildings, that's fantastic. But since the 16'x16' will work mostly as a woodshop, I have my doubts.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I've started finding other outyards for next year. Currently have 3 more lined up. That should put me in a good position for between 50-60 hives. But at 50-60 hives, I think my 6 frame extractor and heated uncapping knife won't take me very far. So if I'm going to maintain those numbers or grow, I'm looking at getting an uncapper and a larger extractor, along with a cappings spinner and a bottling tank. Unless I find a good deal, that could run me $10k easy. Once I hit that $10k cost, 50-60 hives will take me a lifetime to pay off that cost. So then it only makes sense to grow more. So I'm just looking at the future to see if I grow, how long will it take me to pay off the cost. 

At least that's my motivation. If anyone cares. If not, that's cool.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

My intentions were to maintain my current remodeling business & work my farm & bees part time to help my kids through college. I grew way too fast, had almost no cost effective help, & have put myself at a disadvantage. One piece of advice I hope you consider is that you make the bees pay for themselves. I borrowed & haven't made a dime. That is very demoralizing. 
One bright spot is that I met a beek that loves the bees more than me & he doesn't have the resources that I have. He has been a God send (THANKS MICHAEL PALMER AGAIN!!) We are discussing how we can work this limited partnership that works for both of us. 
I would like to fill all my boxes & get them out of & around my shop to work. I can't spend another summer trying to expand to 250-300 & work full time + work a farm by myself.....so....He works my bees, I help when I can, I do all the woodwork, & expenditures & he runs the bees like they were his own & we split the honey. I sell some nucs & the wax.
I hope this thread gets more input & your beezness soars!

btw. I love that you're a #'s cruncher. put a large % for contingent variables. Don't spend more than you can afford to lose, THIS IS AGRICULTURE! NO GUARANTEES!


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

"Unfortunately I didn't operate the bees as an independent business in years past, so I don't have P&L's or averages to work off of. I could probably go back and look at equipment costs, packages, nucs, bottles, ect. over the past few years, but I didn't keep track of time, mileage (or gas), sugar/feed, or treatments fully. Most of my equipment was built by myself in the past few years, so any "cost" wouldn't include time. Not very helpful (either in sharing, or using as estimates moving forward)."

This is my same story. I almost don't want to know, but reality is that if I don't look reality in the face it will catch up to me. I run a schedule "c", & setting up a schedule "F" as in farming business. one good thing is that I can itemize, get an appraisal & depreciate or write off expenditures for my stuff. drawbacks are that the IRS gives you ZERO for your time. I need to keep way tighter records of all my doings. And keeping them separate. Self determination is a beautiful thing. Reality slaps are necessary to stay on track.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Since you're going to keep your day job you will need to factor in the gain/loss from your business and see what the overall impact on your taxes is. It never makes sense to me to spend a dollar in order to save 35¢ in taxes, but if you're going to spend that dollar anyway as a hobbiest/sideliner you may as well figure it into your planning. Diligent record keeping and a good CPA can sometimes make an otherwise losing proposition at least break-even, and in come cases a little profitable.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I ran 50-60 hives last year with a heated knife and a 20 frame Dadant without taking too much time. So I don't think you would immediately have to buy an uncapper and spinner. Sure they would be nice but, you could get by with just upgrading your extractor. Then after you see how things are gonna go and save up some cash you could get the spinner and uncapper in a year or two.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

lakebilly said:


> One piece of advice I hope you consider is that you make the bees pay for themselves.


My goal isn't to borrow anything. Unless it comes down to land or buildings. I don't have the $100k+ cash to drop on some acreage. That would have to involve a loan. But the rest of it I'm not interested in borrowing to obtain.

But when you are looking at putting thousands into an operation over years, you want to run the numbers to make sure that you'll get it back. If not, it isn't a business but a hobby. If it's a hobby, it isn't worth it to drop several tens of thousands into it.

Thanks for the input and support.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

johng said:


> I ran 50-60 hives last year with a heated knife and a 20 frame Dadant without taking too much time. So I don't think you would immediately have to buy an uncapper and spinner.


I would agree based on the 50-60 hive range. My 6 frame extractor won't take me very far with that many hives. A larger extractor alone would probably get me through it. 

But the goal isn't to stay at 50-60 hives. That range is just the stepping stone. If it makes financial sense, then I'd want to expand. Once you get to the 100-150 hive range, a heated knife and a 20 frame extractor becomes a little light. You would need the uncapper and the spinner at that point. If it doesn't make financial sense, it's better for me to stay smaller and just do it as a hobby operation, with 20-30 hives. If I'm at 20-30 hives, I can get by with my 6 frame extractor. 

So, if I'm going to go with a bigger extractor, I'll need the uncapper and spinner (and pump and bottling tank) sooner rather than later. It isn't that I have to buy all of them at the same time, or in the same year. But if I'm going to commit the $1,500 for the larger extractor, I need to be financially ready and prepared to expand the hives and ready to put in the other $5k in spinners, pumps, clarifiers, and tanks. From there the uncappings becomes the slow gear, and I need to know another $3k for the uncapper needs to be ready to be put in. 

To me, it's kinda like buying a fixer-upper house. If you are ready to buy into the house at $140k, that's great. But you need to know when you put the offer on the table that the $140k isn't the real purchase price. Because you're going to have to put another $80k into it to get it fixed up. If you aren't willing to spend the $220k on the home, don't put the offer on the table.

I'm trying to make sure it's profitable to run 100-150 hives. Once that's determined, I'm alright buying the $1,500 extractor, knowing that the actual purchase price for the extracting equipment will end up running me $10k over the next few years.

But I do appreciate the comment and honesty.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

With the cost of wages...minimum wage being 10.50$ and going up and the minimum hire period being a 4 hour period unless you can find someone that is an effient worker i would think you would need a lot of hives to financially justify hired help.



Specialkayme said:


> I think the true question is whether bees are your _sole_ source of income, or if it's a _supplemental_ source of income.
> 
> To me, I believe 500 hives is something I can use to supplement my current income, relying heavily on the employment of others in the bee business while also working less at my current job. But anything above that will require so much of my time and focus it isn't likely to be a source of supplemental income.
> 
> Maybe that number is closer to 300 or 350. I don't know. It's all for estimation purposes anyway. Determining the break even point.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Your wives must not have enough practice at spending



FollowtheHoney said:


> Hey! I resemble that comment


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Specialkayme said:


> I've started finding other outyards for next year. Currently have 3 more lined up. That should put me in a good position for between 50-60 hives. But at 50-60 hives, I think my 6 frame extractor and heated uncapping knife won't take me very far. So if I'm going to maintain those numbers or grow, I'm looking at getting an uncapper and a larger extractor, along with a cappings spinner and a bottling tank. Unless I find a good deal, that could run me $10k easy. Once I hit that $10k cost, 50-60 hives will take me a lifetime to pay off that cost. So then it only makes sense to grow more. So I'm just looking at the future to see if I grow, how long will it take me to pay off the cost.
> 
> At least that's my motivation. If anyone cares. If not, that's cool.


It sounds like you will hit a plateau at about 50-60. How long does it take to deal with the honey from the 25 you have now with your current resources.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I have a very basic view when it comes to spending...and receiving.

If it is a hobby or passion I spend without thought to getting back. It is money and time down the drain. If my interest dwindles and I start to be concerned about the output beit emtional, time, financial or physical then it is time to scale back or stop all together.

If it is business then I decide how much money, emotion, time and physical effort I am willing to put out. For that amount I then figure what I can get. Once I have an idea of that I estimate how long it will take to break even and how long it will take to start making net profits. 
If things go way off to the negative it takes a lot of consideration before throwing more at the project far less expanding.
I agree that often there is a "critical mass" required to get things rolling but generally I have found if you can't manage a small version first you get in a real mess by over extending and expanding in hopes of fixing things.

Also I found there is no magic to business...risk, money, long hours and hard work are the foundation and some are fortunate enough to embrace lady luck along the way


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

lakebilly said:


> My intentions were to maintain my current remodeling business & work my farm & bees part time to help my kids through college. I grew way too fast, had almost no cost effective help, & have put myself at a disadvantage. One piece of advice I hope you consider is that you make the bees pay for themselves. I borrowed & haven't made a dime. That is very demoralizing.
> One bright spot is that I met a beek that loves the bees more than me & he doesn't have the resources that I have. He has been a God send (THANKS MICHAEL PALMER AGAIN!!) We are discussing how we can work this limited partnership that works for both of us.
> I would like to fill all my boxes & get them out of & around my shop to work. I can't spend another summer trying to expand to 250-300 & work full time + work a farm by myself.....so....He works my bees, I help when I can, I do all the woodwork, & expenditures & he runs the bees like they were his own & we split the honey. I sell some nucs & the wax.
> I hope this thread gets more input & your beezness soars!
> ...


I can see two issues of concern here, I hope you read them as they're meant, constructive criticism;
- if someone loves the bees more than you, why are you doing bees? There are more profitable, less risk/effort enterprises.
- the guy working for half the crop might lose out if you lessen this crop for your own gain by selling nucs.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

WBVC said:


> With the cost of wages...minimum wage being 10.50$ and going up and the minimum hire period being a 4 hour period unless you can find someone that is an effient worker i would think you would need a lot of hives to financially justify hired help.


Minimum wage is significantly less in NC. Set at the minimum fed rate of $7.25 per hour. States can vary it, but the highest state right now is Washington at $9.32. There is no minimum hire period either. So the costs aren't as bad here. 

Of course, if you pay a salary and issue a 1099 as an independent contractor, you could work around the minimum wage laws anyway. If you set it up right.

The cost isn't as prohibitive as finding someone who is willing/desires to work seasonal agricultural work on an "as needed" basis that is still reliable.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

dsegrest said:


> How long does it take to deal with the honey from the 25 you have now with your current resources.


Not all 25 have been run for honey in years past. Some were used to create nucs (repeatedly), some used to populate/maintain mating nucs, others used as cell builders/finishers/drone colonies. I probably ran about 10 for honey last year. It probably took me about 12 hours of uncapping and extracting to deal with the 10 hives. Not counting bottling.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

"Any employer in agriculture who did not utilize more than 500 "man days" of agricultural labor in any calendar quarter of the preceding calendar year is exempt from the minimum wage and overtime pay provisions of the FLSA"
http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs12.htm


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

WBVC said:


> I agree that often there is a "critical mass" required to get things rolling but generally I have found if you can't manage a small version first you get in a real mess by over extending and expanding in hopes of fixing things.


No doubt.

I'm not doing this study to figure out how much it would cost me to purchase 450 colonies and turn it around for a profit. I'm doing this study to determine if when I reach "critical mass" and I'm ready to move through it, if it makes sense to do so. If not initially, is there a point where it starts making financial sense. That's all. 50-60 hives may not be cost effective for the amount of equipment I need to have to properly process it. So then you are looking at getting more hives to justify the cost of the equipment, or not getting the equipment at all. But if you acquired more hives, what point does it all make sense? That's the only reason for the study. For my own understanding. 

If I get the equipment and expand to 100 colonies, but I'm still losing money, it helps to see if growing would change that or if it's better off to downsize to a hobby level.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

cg3 said:


> "Any employer in agriculture who did not utilize more than 500 "man days" of agricultural labor in any calendar quarter of the preceding calendar year is exempt from the minimum wage and overtime pay provisions of the FLSA"
> http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs12.htm


But finding someone that is willing to be paid less than the minimum wage and overtime pay provisions of the FLSA on an as needed basis, seasonally, while getting stung may be a different story.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

"The Hive and the Honeybee" has a great chapter on the business of beekeeping. Some of the stuff is a little out of date, but it is a great template.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

How true that is...human resources is always a challenge.



Specialkayme said:


> Minimum wage is significantly less in NC. Set at the minimum fed rate of $7.25 per hour. States can vary it, but the highest state right now is Washington at $9.32. There is no minimum hire period either. So the costs aren't as bad here.
> 
> Of course, if you pay a salary and issue a 1099 as an independent contractor, you could work around the minimum wage laws anyway. If you set it up right.
> 
> The cost isn't as prohibitive as finding someone who is willing/desires to work seasonal agricultural work on an "as needed" basis that is still reliable.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Wish that was applicable everywhere.



cg3 said:


> "Any employer in agriculture who did not utilize more than 500 "man days" of agricultural labor in any calendar quarter of the preceding calendar year is exempt from the minimum wage and overtime pay provisions of the FLSA"
> http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs12.htm


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

WBVC said:


> Wish that was applicable everywhere.


Check out the rest of the law.


Agricultural employees who are immediate family members of their employer
Those principally engaged on the range in the production of livestock
Local hand harvest laborers who commute daily from their permanent residence, are paid on a piece rate basis in traditionally piece-rated occupations, and were engaged in agriculture less than thirteen weeks during the preceding calendar year
Non-local minors, 16 years of age or under, who are hand harvesters, paid on a piece rate basis in traditionally piece-rated occupations, employed on the same farm as their parent, and paid the same piece rate as those over 16.

Requirements

Although exempt from the overtime requirements of the FLSA, agricultural employees must be paid the federal minimum wage (unless exempt from minimum wage as noted above). There are numerous restrictions on the employment of minors less than 16 years of age, particularly in occupations declared hazardous by the Secretary of Labor. Substantial civil money penalties are prescribed for violations of the monetary and child labor provisions of the law. The FLSA also requires that specified records be kept.



Specialkayme said:


> You _wholesale_ for $5-6 a pound? I retail for $7, and most places I've seen offer between $1.80-3.00 for wholesale.
> 
> Where are you getting $5-6 a pound from?


We get $6 lb wholesale. 10-12 retail. Depends on the location and market. You need an affluent area.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

EastSideBuzz said:


> We get $6 lb wholesale. 10-12 retail. Depends on the location and market. You need an affluent area.


If I had a market like that, I'd be golden. 

Tough to get by at $7 retail, $3 wholesale in a state that has an average per hive production of 36 pounds.


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## georgiabees (Feb 2, 2010)

Specialkayme said:


> If I had a market like that, I'd be golden.
> 
> Tough to get by at $7 retail, $3 wholesale in a state that has an average per hive production of 36 pounds.


You won't get far just Beeing average. Average means some are doing 16 pounds, the best 66 or more. Best Commercial guys exceed averages.

AVOID liquid honey if low area sales prices and produce higher end Cut Comb or Chunk Specialty Jars Pollen or Propolis. My Pollen Retail $20 Lb. Propolis $88 Lb.

Option Strategy 2 "MOVE" I Did, My original location was not good for production or sales, Only 45 miles made a WORLD of difference. River Outyards Busy Highway Retail Sales

In your original first post you said 10 hive outyards A joke and not cost effective, if the area can't support a minimum 24 - 48 hives see option 2 above.

I Don't post much just read then go out and exceed averages, but You sounded really confused and needing help. Remember LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION

John Pluta http://GeorgiaBees.blogspot.com

Common Sense Street Smarts Beats Book Taught


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Two other very old books that talk about economics of beekeeper are "Advanced Beekeeping" by W.Z. Hutchinson and "Mysteries of Beekeeping Explained" by Moses Quinby. The concepts are still valid. The dollar amounts, of course, are not...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

> You won't get far just Beeing average. Average means some are doing 16 pounds, the best 66 or more. Best Commercial guys exceed averages.


Solution: Hire school kids from Lake Wobeegone ...they are all above average.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

georgiabees said:


> You won't get far just Beeing average. Average means some are doing 16 pounds, the best 66 or more. Best Commercial guys exceed averages.


I would hope to exceed averages, and likely would expect to. But for budgeting purposes I find it unwise to estimate that I will always exceed USDA calculated state averages.

As we all know, one outyard may produce 80 lbs of surplus honey, while just 5 miles away the hives produce 5 lbs. The average would be 42.5 lbs. The 80 lb field is profitable, while the 5 lb field is abandoned. If I had a bunch of 80 lb fields that I knew I could count on, great. But I don't. I'm finding fields. Which means I'm probably just as likely to find the 5 lb field as I am to find the 80 lb field (probably more likely to find the 5 lb field, actually). So budgeting on the average probably makes sense until I can find and nail all the right yards.



georgiabees said:


> AVOID liquid honey if low area sales prices and produce higher end Cut Comb or Chunk Specialty Jars Pollen or Propolis. My Pollen Retail $20 Lb. Propolis $88 Lb.


Wise suggestions. Thanks.

Cut Comb has nearly no market here. I could be the one to create it, but questionable. Chunk has a much greater chance.



georgiabees said:


> Option Strategy 2 "MOVE"


Unfortunately, not practical. I'm talking about sideliner activities, not commercial. Sideliner activities requires a normal job to support, in whole or in part, your living expenses. My normal job requires a state issued license that is not transferable. It would be extremely difficult for me to locate to another state. But even within the same state, I get paid very good at the job I'm working now. I live where I live because of that job. It's possible to find another job somewhere else in the state, but I'm taking a risk as to whether it will be better or worse than my current location. I'm also taking a risk that the new job will be as good as the current job, and pay as well. I would hate to move and change jobs only to find out that the new job is horrible. Or take a pay cut in moving. The result would be penny wise but pound foolish. Unless I was willing to move into commercial activities, not just sideliner.



georgiabees said:


> In your original first post you said 10 hive outyards A joke and not cost effective, if the area can't support a minimum 24 - 48 hives see option 2 above.


If a yard needs to be able to support 24-48 hives in order to be cost effective, I'm sunk. Not going to happen around here.



georgiabees said:


> Remember LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION


Which in the bee business requires trial/error, trial/error, trial/SUCCESS!


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> "Advanced Beekeeping" by W.Z. Hutchinson


Haven't heard of it before. A good read?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Haven't heard of it before. A good read?

Very good. Free here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=f...ping+by+W.Z.+Hutchinson&source=gbs_navlinks_s

You can download the pdf or other ebook format.

Hutchinson also published a bee journal titled "The Bee Keepers Review" for many years.
https://books.google.com/books?id=6...nson+beekeeping+journal&source=gbs_navlinks_s


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

More good Hutchinson books:

The Production of Comb Honey:
https://books.google.com/books?id=XoVlAAAAMAAJ

Successful Bee Keeping:
https://books.google.com/books?id=94NlAAAAMAAJ

More "The Bee Keepers Review"
Volume 3
https://books.google.com/books?id=JjE5AQAAMAAJ

Volumes 17-18
https://books.google.com/books?id=Oy45AQAAMAAJ

Volume 18
https://books.google.com/books?id=C94TAAAAYAAJ

Volume 20
https://books.google.com/books?id=gnseAQAAMAAJ

Volume 22
https://books.google.com/books?id=8nseAQAAMAAJ

volume 23
https://books.google.com/books?id=eHweAQAAMAAJ


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

MBC:

At this point I doubt anyone loves the bees a lot more than me, that is why I am glad he is helping me. I need to focus on profitable business until I can make the bee bizz more profitable. As far as selling nucs that will be an agreed % after expanding to 200-300. Thanks for the questions it makes me think about my responses & my plan. A plan without accountability isn't much of a plan.


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## Richter1978 (Oct 3, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> More good Hutchinson books:
> 
> The Production of Comb Honey:
> https://books.google.com/books?id=XoVlAAAAMAAJ
> ...



Thank you!


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