# 2014 die off



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Its hard enough to comment on this years losses without crying. Now you expect us to comment on 2014!!!!! I hate to admit it but at this point I am at a loss as to find the words to express what next years losses are when we aren't even there yet. Magic balls are out of my league. Things are getting pretty bad when the bees are bring counted as dead before they are even alive????????? Help


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Schrödinger's bees. Are they alive? or are they dead? Only the box knows.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Fusion_power said:


> Schrödinger's bees. Are they alive? or are they dead? Only the box knows.


Never heard of this before. COOL. Only on the internet? Can this apply to thought(s) also?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Actually now that you are aware of it you will notice that pop culture has tons of references to it.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Not a commercial guy, but if my losses are any concern im at almost 50%. Treated for mites and plenty of stores left in hives. A lot of my losses had to do with queen failure. 
Had a laying worker hive I had to shake out, and the rest had maybe a few capped cells of brood if any at all. One even tried to raise a queen but failed.

What is the cause of the die off of most of the hives here in CA? Anyone have any thoughts?


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## Jon B (Apr 24, 2013)

I started out this past summer with approximately 470 hives. When I wrapped my hives in late November I had 375 hives alive. The sad part in all of this, is that I consider myself fortunate since I experienced a much worse loss in the 2011/2012 season. Two years of drought conditions, bitter cold winters and a significant increase in queen failures have really taken its toll on my operation.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

BeeGhost said:


> What is the cause of the die off of most of the hives here in CA? Anyone have any thoughts?


1. Bad nutrition
2. Bad nutrition
3. Bad nutrition
4. Bees being susceptible to "bugs" at a higher level than average........... becasue......... you guessed it............. Bad nutrition


If you think its bad now.......... just wait till the almonds are over. If the rain stays away this whole thing is gonna collapse like a tower on 9/11.


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## hystad (Jan 14, 2011)

Just fed mine and did a check. 22 out of 22 are still good. 2 out of 4 nucs dead. 
Requeened with queens from some guy in Dixon.
Started feeding sub in July. 
Did OA drip as a knock down in late spring and apivar in late July.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

hystad said:


> Just fed mine and did a check. 22 out of 22 are still good. 2 out of 4 nucs dead.
> Requeened with queens from some guy in Dixon.
> Started feeding sub in July.
> Did OA drip as a knock down in late spring and apivar in late July.


How come a lot of our hobbyist /sideline customers seem to often come through this way more unscathed than I do? I hear this quite often. About time for many of you to quit your day job and become bee slaves over on my dead out pile once they are revitalized. Glad to hear things are looking good  sorry....... Great   !!!!!!!


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

This is a commercial thread so their responses do not count. If I could baby just 22 hives all would be alive as well.


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## hystad (Jan 14, 2011)

You are correct but I really didn't spend much time with them at all. I credit it to spending $ on feed and good store bought mite treatments.


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## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

rainesridgefarm said:


> This is a commercial thread so their responses do not count. If I could baby just 22 hives all would be alive as well.


If I could baby just 500 hives all would be alive as well!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Honey-4-All said:


> Never heard of this before. COOL. Only on the internet? Can this apply to thought(s) also?


That would be Schrodinger's Brain, wouldn't it? Is there a thought in there or isn't there?


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

Let's face it. Not at any point in time during the year do I have a bee yard with only 22 hives in it. For overall nutrition your bees have a huge advantage over commercial guys.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>1. Bad nutrition 2. Bad nutrition 3. Bad nutrition 4. Bees being susceptible to "bugs" at a higher level than average........... becasue......... you guessed >it............. Bad nutrition

I don't agree. This might be true for commercial beekeepers but my bees are in residential neighborhoods and bring in thousands of loads of varied pollen and nectar daily. They are full top to bottom in November with bees, pollen, honey and probably mites. In the cold of December they collapse leaving behind frame after frame of pollen and honey. How could they be suffering bad nutrition? Next to them are hives that are flourishing. 

Viruses, or mite vectored viruses.


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## hystad (Jan 14, 2011)

I probably have at least 60 other hives within a mile at all times. During certain times of the year alot more than that. Not trying to debate with you guys but I always have others right on top of me.


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

heintz88, are you for hire this spring? I just bought out another beekeeper so I am way up.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

hystad, Why does your Profile say "Years Beekeeping: 0" ? How long have you had 22 hives? When did you buy them? How long have you kept them alive?


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## hystad (Jan 14, 2011)

This is my fourth winter. My numbers have went up and down. I got up to about 70 in 2012 and had about 8 come out of winter which I turned into the 22 I have now. I used home brew (shop towel) mite treatments up until this last time. Profile updated.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks. That's more of a complete story than having 22 that are still alive and unaffected by lack of nutrition.


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## hystad (Jan 14, 2011)

I bought my queens from honey-4-all which is why I posted in the first place. My location is also pretty close to beeghost who is a friend of mine. You guys maybe right but I still think that mine are unaffected because I fed the heck out of them early and had good mite treatment.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Which is good.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

one problem I can see is take all there honey sell it feed them back sugar.give them mono crop pollen source.take there honey feed them sugar to winter over with.now put that in human situation get a human feed them sugar or candy then only feed human one type of food then go through winter on candy see how long the human lives.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

odfrank said:


> >1. Bad nutrition...I don't agree. ...Viruses, or mite vectored viruses.


Bad nutrition = more vectored viruses
dont forget the importance of mite control


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dang. I knew I was doing something wrong. Thanks.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

now you know sqkcrk


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yup. Now I'm going to sell my bees to Frank. Your Post jumped in front of my reply to Frank. I guess all my years keeping bees has fogged my eyesight and ability to think. I'm gonna start all over and quit every three years so I can always be a second year beekeeper. Y'all know what Randy Oliver says about second year beekeepers, right?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ian said:


> now you know sqkcrk


and knowing is half the battle


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Ian said:


> Bad nutrition = more vectored viruses
> dont forget the importance of mite control


That was my last sentence..."Viruses, or mite vectored viruses." That is what many, myself included, attribute the cause of the dieoffs to. 

But is homebrew, "shop towels", which I assume is an unpermitted use of a strong miticide, what should be promoted?

I have admitted for years that my losses are probably attributable to lack of treatments. So this year I treated nine with 1/2 doses of MAQS, which killed 2 marginal queens. My overall losses at outyards last year was 28%. Can't say that MAQS improved my loss ratio enough to convince me to continue.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Apivar has been working for us here, so far
timely OA is also effective. 
I have learned to stray from Formic


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I can vouch for Hystad, been to his yard and seen the results of some of his breeder queens, he is no spring chicken to bee keeping and a heck of a nice guy to boot!!

I have to agree with Honey-4-all on this, nutrition has a huge effect on bee survival I believe, and also mite treatments at the right time. 
This year was a learning year for me, just like the last 3 years have been. I didn't throw sub on early enough or treat for mites early enough I believe.
As for stores, all hives had plenty and are bringing in nectar right now from what I believe is a Eucalyptus bloom. 

But after going back out to the trailer again today,
I found one more dead out that had a very small cluster of dead bees and no sign of the queen...........but there was also a patch of comb that contained eggs laid by a queen, 
not a laying worker?

Opened up another hive and there was barely a fistful size cluster, I took out the frame and found the queen still alive, but not a single egg. I ended up shaking the bees out and put the queen 
in a queen cage to take home to show the kids and practiced picking her off a frame of comb and also marked her for practice. Atleast the kids got to enjoy handling her and I got to be
comfortable handling a queen.

So my final count of live hives so far is 11. The new year will find me becoming a much better beekeeper instead of a bee haver. Its time to get serious
and quit being lazy and/or cheap.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Here in new zealand we have reasonably large beekeeping operations with many putting bees into orchards for pollination as well as producing honey. 
We dont have widespread mite resistance problems with only a few areas starting to see problems.
We dont have large scale dieoffs here.

I think when we get resistant mites throughout the country our dieoffs will be just as big as yours. 
I would guess that Australia would also have very few unexplained dieoffs and they are varroa free.

Seems to me that resistant mites and dieoffs go hand in hand


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## Bear Fence Builder (Jun 6, 2013)

One question to ask is what people consider high losses now? I think most people are familiar with the idea that 10% is considered 'normal loss' but is that an antiquated figure? Is 15-30% the new norm? If we are hitting 2-3 crops for pollination and maybe even lucky to make honey during that time then are higher losses more acceptable especially when there is always a certain loss associated with moving bees.

Personally, when I'm looking at dead outs there never seems to be an "aha" moment where I can pinpoint an exact culprit. Malnutrition? I would have to say no (at least for my colonies). Pulled off quite a few dead outs with brood chambers packed with honey and pollen...still dead bees. Same colony that looked like a huge colony a month before when the honey was coming off. 

Mites? maybe. Pesticides? maybe. What baffles me is that the colonies sitting right next door on the pallet were subjected to all the same factors during the year and they are still alive and looking good.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

No different than us humans. What genetic traits are expressed on any given scenario. If we or the bees are under ideal nutritional and environmental conditions with a low stress life A max life can be expected. But those days are past on every level for the time being.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Bear Fence Builder said:


> Is 15-30% the new norm? ................Same colony that looked like a huge colony a month before when the honey was coming off.
> 
> *What baffles me is that the colonies sitting right next door on the pallet were subjected to all the same factors during the year and they are still alive and looking good.*


If you can answer this one my friend and are willing to share the solution you have found I can bet that a long vacation on any tropical Isle of your choosing will be heartily funded by myself and 1000 other cluck heads on this quest who were ten steps behind you. You have no clue how I would love to pay for the whole trip by myself. Find the correct answer and the tan time will be scheduled even if I need to sell my last hive to make it happen !!!!!!!!!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

happy new year


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Have a happy and productive year!


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Loss of a queen in early winter is often because of nosema. Is anyone having a problem with early winter queen death who also treated for nosema? Or is this mostly an issue in colonies that were not treated for nosema? Are the affected bees confined to the hive by cold? Or are they able to fly fairly regularly?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

odfrank said:


> That was my last sentence..."Viruses, or mite vectored viruses." That is what many, myself included, attribute the cause of the dieoffs to.


Don’t overlook the direct impact of mite parasitism too. Viruses are surely a factor but….if your hives have many thousands of mites sucking hemolymph from your developing workers…this too takes a heavy toll. Shorter life expectancy, loss of vigor and increased susceptibility to every other pressure….add viruses and you have a toxic mix.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

I made a couple hundred splits in July then took them to the hills 10% loss the rest are boomers. Not much feed in the hills, feed summer, fall and winter. Second year colonies treated the same 50% loss. Think I will do more requeening.


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## ryandebny (Apr 17, 2010)

I lost 50% of my hives. Lots of food. Did mite control. I only had 40 hives. Twenty left in this cold snap. Only 6 hives of 20 froze. Lots of food in all the hives.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

ryandebny said:


> I lost 50% of my hives. Lots of food. Did mite control. I only had 40 hives. Twenty left in this cold snap. Only 6 hives of 20 froze. Lots of food in all the hives.


sorry to hear this.
what appears to be the cause of your losses? 6 froze w/ small clusters? how about the others?


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## ryandebny (Apr 17, 2010)

They seemed to abscond. They were all full of honey and there were no bees burrowed in the comb or clustered. Just about 100 dead bees in the bottom of the hives.
There was no sign of mites either.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

ryandebny==
I think a close examination of the brood comb is in order to understand what did them in.
I'd be interested in what you find.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

ryandebny said:


> Did mite control.


What does this mean?


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## ryandebny (Apr 17, 2010)

I used OA for the mites. There was very little brood in any of the hives. I'll have a look next week and let you know.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

2014 Die Off? 85% survival so far, in my hives.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

ryandebny said:


> I used OA for the mites.


Dribble or vaporization? One treatment or more? Spring, summer, winter? I am sorry....but this still sounds very much like a mite driven collapse.


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