# Warre - Top Entrance



## jadebees

Some folks swear by top entry hives, and they do have some advantages. 
My good friend asked me to set up a few, in the swarm lures that I put out, so in our curiosity this is what we found with wild bees. The bees, ( my best indicators of what bees like ,) did not accept the lure boxes as readily. I D K why that is. But, MY issue with it is that to even use a small inside feeder, I needed to disturb ( be close to) the entry, and as you know, bees don't like people in the doorway. The other thing that seems less than ideal, is that it's harder for the bees to clean out the hive of deceased bees. They seemed to do OK, but moved in so late they starved. Some wild bees (& these ones) just dont take to feeding. Oh well. When I cleaned out the hive, it was full of junk in the bottom, not just bees. I do not have a lot of experience with top entry, so I'm as curious as you.


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## Michael Bush

I don't have any warre's. I also don't have any bottom entrances. The biggest advantages to that arrangement was that I had no more skunk problems. The second biggest was better overwintering.


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## jadebees

I didn't think of that, the animals. I do get pesty skunks, and coyotes do the same trick as the skunks. Also I like it that the rain splattered mud from storms doesn't get in the entry. And the ants have to work harder,to get in too. Thanks! I may try to use some more top entry hives. The thing with the entry and feeders, is that I don't usually suit up to change feeders. Sometimes , a sting or two. Being that close, a few more, but, whose fault is that?


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## BeekeepingIsGood

There is a man in Alberta, Canada who has discussed the use of upper entrances. You can find his posts in David Heaf's Warré discussion group.

His use for them was primarily during the winter due to extreme cold and excessive snow. I have so far, in my two seasons of experimenting with warré hives, been happy to go without upper entrances in Ontario, Canada.

As pro-upper entrance literature is more popular around here, I'll offer some sources that consider the general possible benefits of no upper entrance.


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## EricConcE

The discussion by David Heaf had some really good points. He seems to be in favor of the warre top entrance only in far colder climates. With very mild winters here and only ants as a real pest problem (appearing only with sugar feeding), I'll probably opt against the top entrance for now.


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## The Honey Girl's Boy

Eric, 
I keep bees in Warres in Washington state, it's probably wetter but milder then your location. My experience with upper entrances has been a rather interesting journey. Over the years I built my Warres the "normal" way with the bottom entrances. Just by chance I had a Warre hive in a secluded area on a neighbor's farm that technically went feral. It just slipped through the cracks of everything else I have to do. Over the years the bees in this 4 box hive literally chewed an entrance through the sunny side wall between the 2nd and 3rd box. There was a small crack to begin with and the enlarged it. It is about 3/8 by about 3 inches. They completely ignore the bottom entrance now. So bees, given the choice, built an entrance about halfway up on that one. On another hive I drilled a 3/8 inch hole right at the top just under the edge of the top cover. That entrance became a major traffic jam and again the lower entrance became ignored. The bees started chewing at that upper entrance trying to enlarge that one. So I provided an upper entrance about the size of the in the feral hive. In my experience, allowing bees to be bees, they will chose upper entrances, clearly desiring them to the point of creating them, themselves.


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## TBHKeeper

Hi everyone

Below is a self designed, home grown variation of Warre over the last 4 years.

The picture was taken just after sunset in 2013, and shows the unusual configuration.

These hives have 4 entrances 1/2" high x 3/4" wide cut directly into the bottom of each hive body unit.









Advantages:
1: They clearly seem to like having high entrances and multiple entrances.
2: They don't get as... AS upset by mower air blast on entrances down low.
3: Mice can't get in so easy with 3/4" entrance sizes
4: Some entrances can be closed during early spring or late fall weather
5: They can remove deads from bottom of hive easier if it is left open
6: Having multiple entrances allows traffic to come and go AS they wish, and WHERE they wish.
7: No need to build a complex hive bottom... just throw down a piece of plywood... done.
8: Can use each hive body as a 4 unit nuc with 1 bar per unit

Disadvantages ...
1: a bit more fiddling to put entrances in each hive body. (Made a jig fixture so no measuring)
2: Requires me to pay attention to when to close areas by brood so it doesn't get cold during cool weather.

Is it "worth it" to put them that way... YEAH!
Do they like it? You're asking me? Did you notice the entrances down low? Can you find them up higher?

Lay a water wick across the front of the bottom entrance to cultivate it's use... and they STILL won't go to it very heavy.

Is Warre better / advantageous?
From my perspective... yeah if you get used to all the differences in it. It's taken 4 years of fiddling with Warre derivative ideas and little details to shut down beetle problems... and begin to see them start doing what was intended in the first place.

Someone also mentioned approaching the hive....

I compensate for entrances in front by approaching hives from behind as a habit.

Warre style disadvantages
1: No extractors to buy
2: No frames (unless you want them... then you're on your own building)
3: Needs honey removed more often

Warre style hive advantages
1: MUCH cheaper to build the hives
2: MUCH less # of parts unless you switch to using frames in them
3: MUCH lighter if you have a bad back, hernia anybody?, or are physically not very big (women, kids)
4: MUCH easier to lift off a hive body that didn't need handles in the first place.
5: Easy to "nuc" a hive into more than one piece (in my design)
6: 4H (kids) friendly design
7: No extractor to buy (yup, both advantage AND disadvantage)
8: No frames (Again, both an advantage and disadvantage)
9: Bees move more "straight up" during winter.
___IOW... Not as much honey gets missed as they move up.
10: Needs honey removed more often (protects from hive beetles.)
11: Great lumber efficiency use.

TBHKeeper


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## BernhardHeuvel

The use of top entrances and the use of multiple entrance - each hive body has an entrance - only has disadvantages.

I tried it for a while and found it so supercool:










Each box has a hole and a tin plate as a cover.










But in fact it is nonsense.


You end up with a lot of pollen in the supers. Bad. (The more pollen you get in the honey, the faster it spoils because of the proteins that do rot.)
You end up with watery honey - the more insulated the hive, the drier the honey. The better the honey. Open entrances everywhere leads to a current of air through the hive. Honey has sugars and sugars draw moisture. Only way to dry honey is warmth, lots of warmth. 
You end up with 1/5th of the honey you could make. The honey gatherers do not unload the honey into cells - they give it to young bees that take the incoming nectar. Young bees are in the broodnest. So the broodnest is the honeypump of the hive. If you spread out the young bees all over the hive with multiple entrances for the foragers to enter the hive, you significantly weaken the honey pump. Tight = pressure. Keep the young bees together, make a single meeting point for the nectar exchange, so the incoming foragers meet their takers quickly after a short time. From experience I guess you can make five times more honey without those funky multiple entrances.
You end up with increased robbery, silent robbery that is.

Bottom line: the faster you forget about multiple entrances, the quicker you get to real beekeeping. :thumbsup: (Same is true for stacking boxes into the sky...:shhhh

Watch this for good education about bees and nectar takers: 





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg8y2Sb906I#t=1796

All the best,

Bernhard


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## Eduardo Gomes

EricConcE said:


> and only ants as a real pest problem (appearing only with sugar feeding)


Eric have you even had trouble with ants? In Portugal there is talk of ants assaults on hives. My experience of six years, does not support this opinion. I never saw my hives threatened by the ants. The truth is too I rarely food hives and I am careful to avoid syrup spills. All my hives seats are at a height from the ground between 20 cm and 35 cm. Is it this?


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## TBHKeeper

BernhardHeuvel said:


> The use of top entrances and the use of multiple entrance - each hive body has an entrance - only has disadvantages.
> 
> I tried it for a while and found it so supercool:


<image snipped>

Bernhard;

You do nice workmanship... better than mine.



BernhardHeuvel said:


> Each box has a hole and a tin plate as a cover.
> 
> But in fact it is nonsense.


<image snipped>

Respectfully, very strongly disagreed.



BernhardHeuvel said:


> <List snipped>
> 
> Bottom line: the faster you forget about multiple entrances, the quicker you get to real beekeeping. :thumbsup: (Same is true for stacking boxes into the sky...:shhhh
> 
> Watch this for good education about bees and nectar takers:
> 
> <image & URL snipped>
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Bernhard



Bernhard;

This is going to be a painstakingly long reply.

:shhhh:
I cannot subscribe to your sweeping condemnation of the technique of multiple entrances.

From your first point...



BernhardHeuvel said:


> [*]You end up with a lot of pollen in the supers. Bad. (The more pollen you get in the honey, the faster it spoils because of the proteins that do rot.)


The bees know the diff between pollen and honey. They clearly put pollen exactly where they want it, and honey also exactly where they want it. Pollen doesn't go in the honey stomach, and honey doesn't go in the pollen baskets. A beekeeper with mediocre eyes (like me) can tell if pollen is in a "frame" or not before harvesting. If it's mixed up, give that frame to them for winter stores, and don't get in a hurry to harvest without looking.:thumbsup:

There is more, but I'll save that for further down.


As to your second point...



BernhardHeuvel said:


> [*]You end up with watery honey - the more insulated the hive, the drier the honey. The better the honey. Open entrances everywhere leads to a current of air through the hive. Honey has sugars and sugars draw moisture. Only way to dry honey is warmth, lots of warmth.


Regarding watery honey:
When you harvest, check moisture content to make sure it's ready, and don't blame entrances for "watery honey" if the beekeeper didn't check moisture content in the first place. If you check it, you really shouldn't have issues with it spoiling if your test was accurate. Remember, honey is antibacterial, and tends to sterilize nicely if the moisture content is low enough in the first place. Even proteins can be sterilized enough to help them keep... much like people "sterilize" jerky... and jerky isn't even immersed into honey to help it stay good.

Even if your honey was too watery, (and YOU, the keeper choosing what to harvest are the one responsible for that... NOT multiple entrances) there are ways to take care of that if you take the time.:thumbsup:

Also, making sure it is actually all capped before harvesting is critically important. If you don't take time to exercise a beekeepers wisdom, it is a NORMAL thing to ruin your own honey. That also must not be blamed on entrances.:shhhh:

Insulation does not make honey drier. That is a mistake conclusion.

Insulation helps keeps bees more WARM in winter or cooler in summer if used for that.

Humidity is a different issue. The bees need to evaporate moisture out of each cell, and need air circulation directly to achieve that. Using multiple entrances (judiciously) HELPS air circulation. Increased air circulation in turn helps them get the humid air OUT... instead of locking it in the way Langstroth hives do if they only have one entrance. Respectfully, your conclusion is again upside down. What you're doing is to blame multiple entrances for wet honey or poor air circulation.

Giving them a good updraft capability, PARTICULARLY focused on hot days, can help that out along with making it easier to cool the hive. Much as I think you're accurate about sugars drawing moisture, the bees are well aware of what they want... and are deliberately driving moisture off the gathered nectar in the first place. That is what they are experts at. Our trick is to help them succeed.

The pictures I posted were from mid July in the 80s even into 90s that summer here. TELL ME that the bees aren't helped immensely by dumping excess heat (WITH it's crazy high humidity) out of a hive in mid July or August. G'head... lemmee hear ya try to say that one!!! You essentially DID try to assert that. Are you serious???

Prove it to yourself by putting your hand in front of entrances at various points and pay attention to what the air feels like coming out of where. That will help tell you what entrances to use when if you interpret it right.

... AND...

It will NOT always be the same on every test. On a 55 degree cool spring evening, it "speaks" a different language than on a 93 degree hot summer evening with a different number of bees in different places doing different things with different numbers of brood and different amounts of honey in different places. The heat loss can be way too much if it is not warm enough.

Hurrying too much without looking careful what one is doing / harvesting, and not taking time to think through the repercussions and cause / effect context is more likely to ruin honey than multiple entrances. More, it turns conclusions upside down the way you apparently have. Again, don't blame multiple entrances for your own failure to plan, look, or realize the repercussions of your choices.

The issue FOR choosing multiple entrances was about humidity MANAGEMENT, along with cooling or heating the hive depending on context. They demand something entirely different in August, than in early May on 50 degree nights. If that picture were April 17, you wouldn't see so many entrances all opened up in front of God and everybody.

Most trees probably don't have the advantage of multiple knotholes... and the bees are probably accustomed to having to do things the hard way. When I get far enough, I will set up test experiments to prove out harvest quantities better than I can prove to others .... YET. If you want to research WITH me, (or on your own) that's one thing. Throwing sweeping dismissals of a concept won't help anything.

Also, in looking at your own picture of your hives, it doesn't look particularly sunny in that picture. Please tell me you gave thought to how you had those opened, and didn't just open one here and there for the jolly fun of it because it was all "supercool" or something. At first, it looked like each hive's entrances were configured all different, but on closer look, each hive looks mostly the same as the others with a couple "maybe" spots that I saw in the first place. Was there a rational reason for that, or was it an experement ...or to be "supercool"? I hope there was good reason for having odd ones open that way.

The shadows tell me the sun was (PERHAPS???) off to your left as you took the picture...or is that just dark colored dirt to the right? Perhaps it is too cloudy / (cool?) to tell.

Multiple open entrances are not wise if that is during a shady / cloudy part of a dreary day, or worse, if it's an early morning 53 degrees in May when it got down to 45 at night, or with hives facing sideways to the sun if the temperature isn't WELL up into the warm season. That's why I have plugs available to close mine, and perhaps suggests you had the same idea when using yours. My hives face south, and my pictures were taken in early and late July respectively, and both taken late in the day, and all those entrances open only when climate was staying habitually warm at night.

Are you sure you gave multiple entrances a fair shake with that much woods (& shade) around those hives? Did you think objectively about that before you decapitated the idea as being "too supercool"?

I don't keep everything open all the time either. Remember, what I built is **not** simply Warre, nor a "miniature lang". It is a derivative from some of Warre's ideas... pieces of Lang ideas, and departs in places where / when something doesn't work right from direct observation. I don't use fat "mouse welcome mat bottom entrances" for good reason, and I DO use top entrances for good reason. My points aren't about demonizing Lang, or "Guruizing" Warre, (OR the other way around) they are about finding a way to keep bees successfully, and to think for myself on the way there.

A few weeks after the pictures, most of the middle entrances were all closed up, and only high and low were open... because that is what the context demanded (approaching September 1). At this minute in February, MOST of the entrances are shut... barring ONE down low (emergency entrance for cold bees) and ONE up high where most seem to prefer to go in / out. Even that could be up for discussion and reconsideration... but based on thinking carefully, not sweeping broad statements or thoughtless fast snap decisions based on "supercool" emotionalism or "golly-gee-wally" ignorance. Granted, I don't think of everything. That's called learning and experimenting to find what works or doesn't.


As to your third point (1/5 the honey)



BernhardHeuvel said:


> [*]You end up with 1/5th of the honey you could make. The honey gatherers do not unload the honey into cells - they give it to young bees that take the incoming nectar. Young bees are in the broodnest. So the broodnest is the honeypump of the hive. If you spread out the young bees all over the hive with multiple entrances for the foragers to enter the hive, you significantly weaken the honey pump. Tight = pressure. Keep the young bees together, make a single meeting point for the nectar exchange, so the incoming foragers meet their takers quickly after a short time. From experience I guess you can make five times more honey without those funky multiple entrances.


I fear completely answering this will lose the 3 people left (including me) who might manage to read this far in the first place. Suffice it to say that you're radically oversimplifying something that is a whole lot more complex and hard to interpret than your easy single-direction cause-effect thinking line seems to want to portray.

The brood nest is... well... it has lots of nurse bees and lots of...uh... brood. The bees who take care of the brood aren't the same ones who receive the incoming nectar. Did you miss that part of the video you quoted to me???? That would be (ASSUMING I understand accurately) the middle aged bees who aren't quite ready to go foraging yet. It was only about 5 minutes into the video. Watch it again to help get your own "education" cleared up. The nurse bees are down where they are supposed to be. The MIDDLE AGED bees are collecting the incoming nectar.

So, before you complain too loud about pollen in your Warre hive up high, remember that as a good Warre purist, you're normally harvesting off the top, and putting fresh boxes on the bottom. You MIGHT just happen to get a bit of Pollen in your honey boxes in the firs place... unless of course, you're not functioning as a good Warre purist in the first place. Since that is already the obvious case, I don't quite figure out what gives with beating up on multiple entrances with your hollow plastic baseball bat in the first place.

Failure to measure moisture, or other self inflicted mistakes can make it logical that you end up with 1/5 the honey... if that much, and even that can be spoiled by errant harvesting. Respectfully, watching what you're doing carefully and thinking about it's repercussions honestly by requiring yourself to watch details, will help discover mistakes.

Bees NORMALLY have a clue how things are doing as they fill cells... and are plenty capable of knowing when it's time to close a specific cell. They gracefully close each cell as needed. You can prove that to yourself by looking at individual cells as they are closed... individually. Having too many things out of whack in your own process can goof yourself up and make it a whole lot harder to get good conclusions.

The bees themselves are the "fine paintbrush" of knowing their craft way better than we do, so please don't try to demonize the multiple entrances as if it's "amateur beekeeping". Perhaps the "amateur" issue has a lot more to do with using eyeballs to make sure one is actually looking for oneself, and thinking for oneself about each detail instead of painting it as "all bad" or "all good" with a giant paint roller when one might help a process by painting trim with a trim brush.

Perhaps the brightest thing a "professional" can say sometimes is... "I don't KNOW!"

as to your final point...



BernhardHeuvel said:


> [*]You end up with increased robbery, silent robbery that is.


I do notice that hardly any bees can be seen in the hives you picture while you have several central / lower entrances open.

Respectfully, there is one of your reasons why your "supercool" entrances failed.

Open entrances that are not patrolled by sufficient bees, WILL invite robbery, along with heat loss issues if you're not using them judiciously. You might as well put up a billboard saying "honey for theft, please steal it". That too... does not have anything to do with the validation of if multiple entrances are good or not. it has to do with a keeper who indiscriminately doesn't think about leaving the barn door open for the chickens to be attacked.

With no bees around the open entrances, can't help but wonder about what time of year the pictures were taken, and what strength the hives have in the first place. That's on me if I mess up and open the floodgates for yellowjackets, chewing mice, or inappropriate air flow if it's too cold. YES, you can't just run multiple entrances willy nilly... you need to watch and be careful... and NO I DON'T know everything about it... but my work is dynamic and changing as I keep learning.

What seems true today, might not be true 6 months from now if a discovery is made. I might even need to come back six months from now and say I decided to go away from multiple entrances for some reason I can't see right now... but at the moment, the ones you cite, just don't wash. I don't buy in to conventional thinking or sweeping lopsided generalization statements of a technique being "supercool" or "nonsense" just because someone is polarized. That's also a point of these forums helping us to learn.

Finally (WHEW!)

The importance of well fed brood is vital. Cautiously handled OTHER things in RELATED areas, can also make a diff to this item... but that is a whole other topic, and an entire different mail (unless you'd like this one to be longer????).

Respectfully, if you don't LIKE a technique. Don't use it. If you see potential in it, then talk about it, and learn WITH me / us here if it actually works from doing good detailed observations, not just by making polarized verbal sweeps as if some idea is the dumbest box of rocks thing anyone ever tried to do. If I hadn't invested the last 4 years in working on this process and project, I wouldn't have been here speaking out so vocally about it. Hmmm... notice my low posting count? Care to guess why?

Beekeeping is in too much trouble for us to throw out ANY baby with the bath water, and nobody is served by unipolar blasts that serve only to cause argument and demonization. Please put your feet on the ground and talk ABOUT the usefulness or failure of specific details instead of merely getting out a verbal shotgun to blast that which is being investigated actively to learn it's usefulness AND it's limitations.

Bernhard, you do great workmanship on your hives, and your care in strapping them down so they don't get blown over, is similar in thought to a plan I had, but didn't use YET. Truth be told, I like it <your method> better than my own current implementation and agree with yours better on that as a demonstration of using good planning.

Having said that, instead of trying to stomp all over an idea just because you didn't know how to implement it, perhaps try having the openness to actually talk about it without the preconceived know-it-all condemnation you threw out here on your response. It might help BOTH of us to learn how to use the concept better.

This lengthy message is not meant to try to beat up on you, nor demonize you. Yet, it ***IS*** meant to nurture and exercise good independence of thinking, and challenge / invite you to do the same.

Frankly, you are the kind of guy that I'd like very much to talk WITH about specific details of this process to deal with the things that I don't know as well as I'd like to. That won't happen if we get out baseball bats to club one another to death without even having an intelligent conversation about those details. I don't want a "yes man" to just agree with me, but I also don't want what I'm doing demonized as if I never used two brain cells to think past the end of my nose. MUCH careful thought has gone into use of multiple entrances just as MUCH careful thought has gone into the posting of this (absurdly?) long posting.

By the way, although the "bee dance" video was not particularly related to this topic of entrances, it was a great insight by a guy who has apparently done great detailed research on specific things. THAT is the kind of beekeeping I like. Thanks for putting it up.

TBHKeeper


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## jadebees

I have to put in my 2 cents worth here. It's fairly short. I have tried the top entry and find the floor of the hive full of junk dropped by the bees. I doubt it is an advantage, except for the wax moths. They love it.
I have not tried multi entry hives. I need to seal out the yellow jackets . When you have 500 little Vespa species friends attacking your hives it gets the bees quite defensive.
If you do add extra ventilation in this area you must screen it due to wasps. If you make a hole the size of a wine cork it is convenient. Easy to block in winter. But....as soon as it is open the vent gets propolised. If they can the bees eliminate it.
As I have also tried these fads with my Warre hives I came to the same conclusions as Bernhard did. They are basically a waste of time. At least in this area of the world. And, I suspect most places. 
If my Warre hive gets 4 boxes high I make a new split. Increase is good. 
The quilt provides good ventilation and moisture control. That s why its there.


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## Michael Bush

>I have tried the top entry and find the floor of the hive full of junk dropped by the bees. I

I ran bottom entrances for 26 years and the floor of the hive was often full of junk as well... it depends on the workforce at the time.


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## Random Dude

BernhardHeuvel said:


> The use of top entrances and the use of multiple entrance - each hive body has an entrance - only has disadvantages.
> 
> 
> But in fact it is nonsense.
> 
> 
> Watch this for good education about bees and nectar takers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg8y2Sb906I#t=1796
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Bernhard


Valid points.

Thanks for the vid link.


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## Oldtimer

Since warres have new supers added at the bottom, wouldn't a top only entrance make it even harder for the bees to get down there?

Bees like the brood nearest the entrance and also like the honey above the brood. So a top only entrance confuses the natural way they prefer things, the hive will be "messy". Something like Bernhard described.

The Honey Girls Boy described his Warre that was abandoned for several years and eventually chewed themselves a top entrance and stopped using the bottom entrance. That would have been because there were no bees by the bottom entrance if there were bees there they would have used it. The bees did what they always do, moved up. The cluster was at the top of the hive so once they had an entrance there they used it.

-


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## Fergus

I lived in a sandy area and the ants were rough. I mount my bases on a 4x4 treated post about 16" high. I set a 5 gal. bucket in a hole and fill with concrete about 3" from the top and post in center. You can fill the rest of the bucket with water to create a moat. I also mixed vaseline and cayenne pepper and slathered it on the pole, ants didn't like that. I know this sounds extreme especially if you have many hives. If so you can build a four post stand similar to a deck on a house in the same fashion that will hold several hives. I'll try to find photos if anyone is interested.


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## Fergus

I found some nice photos from another thread. These are very nice and if I decide to put hives in one spot (I keep mine in several different locations), this will be the direction I go.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?308464-Hive-Stand-Height&p=1238006#post1238006


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## HiveMind

For the past five years I ran non-warre top entrance hives. They are great. I decided to run my hives Warre style this year. In researching Warre's method I too considered a top entrance variation on it. But after understanding the Warre system and why his setup was designed with a bottom entrance I concluded a top entrance would detract from the benefit the quilt offers. So this year I'm running all bottom entrances.

Top entrances have a lot of practical advantages. But I can also see benefits to a bottom entrance from the colony's perspective.


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## TBHKeeper

Ah!! This thread came back to life! Pictures if you can??? Thanks
What provoked the explorations?

Am slightly confused too... "non-warre top entrance hives"???
Do you mean you used Warre hives without top entrances, Langs with them, or am I still missing it?

In South Carolina with very little snow, you can probably think bottom entrances easier than I can up here.
If you don't have skunks causing you grief, that probably would help adjust thinking too.

At least from my perspective, I like giving them a way to haul deads / debris out without climbing up top.
I also like having a way for nectar gatherers to not be required to come in the bottom and climb all over the place.

So, that's why I prefer having them both high and low in particular.
I do tend to close central ones up at cooler weather times to let them take care of brood easier.

Having said all that, I'm battling a lot of chemicals here lately... so not so sure I'm doing anything useful either way this year.
Maybe the beekeeper's box (house) needs to move a few miles one of these days.

TBHKeeper


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