# Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!



## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

I've never heard of bees absconding from Hopguard. I say try that or Apivar ..or let them go bond (die)


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Sounds like there doing okay, even with a High count. let the flow pass, then MQS or apivar (I like MQS cause its fast) the ready for later flows.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

I read that varroa are naturally repelled by the nectar from the Cilantro/Coriander flower. If you're concerned about using chemicals in your hive, then that might be an "organic" method you could try...give them plenty of cilantro/coriander (same plant, 2 names) to forage on, or maybe get a few drops of the essential oil, put on a cotton ball, and leave it in the hive?

If you have bad varroa problems, though, then I'm not sure it's the best time to experiment with unproven organic treatments. I probably still would, but I have other hives I can pull nucs from to replace my losses if "the organic method" fails on me.


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## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

From what I've read, powdered sugar doesn't affect mites in the cells, but might it not get some of the mites to drop off the bees and help get them through the flow?

(just speculating and pondering here)


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Best to wait until the flow is over. Randy Oliver recommends treatment before August 15th here in California.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

I don't think you need to panic. The alcohol wash normally is done with 1/3 cup of bees so with 1 cup of bees you only have 9 mites/900 bees or a 1% infestation.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

I would recommend to remove any supers, do a flash treatment with the quick strips and then add supers. By leaving mites on the bees your hive will be full of viruses by the time its August.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Spring titi is finished blooming. The main nectar flows in your area will continue through May. Then the Chinese tallow trees will bloom in June. Your best bet is to leave the supers on and not treat until then end of the Chinese tallow bloom (popcorn tree). You will have mites but your load is still below the treatment threshold. So your hives should be okay. The main issue is to not let them get weakend to the point that the SHBs overrun your hives. I would not treat with anything during the flow unless you do not intend to harvest any honey this year.


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## beehonest (Nov 3, 2011)

You say quick strips, might away quick strips? They are safe with a honey flow. Call the company they will verify that. I have used them during a flow with no problems.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

yes, But given his conditions no need. He could wait. normal test is 1/2 cup bees no more than 6 so hes not in panic mode yet as long as hes not seeing DWV. That MQS is strong, I would be worried about flavor in the honey not a lot, but enough in this situation I would just wait until the flow is over. MQS and a new virgin queen to break the brood cycle and hes gloden into fall


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

jbeshearse said:


> Spring titi is finished blooming. The main nectar flows in your area will continue through May. Then the Chinese tallow trees will bloom in June. Your best bet is to leave the supers on and not treat until then end of the Chinese tallow bloom (popcorn tree).


When is the tallow tree flow over?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I wonder how large the cup was... was it really a cup volume? Either way, surely the inspector would recognize a high mite count. I would give them a MAQS treatment, it would at least knock down the phoretic mites.... and cause a brood break... I've used it with the honey supers on and got no flavoring....


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

hmmm, ACTUALLY, something you CAN do during flow that will have ABSOLUTELY no effect on the honey:

Give them one foundationless frame in the middle of the brood nest; let them fill this frame with drone brood; once the drone brood's all capped off (but BEFORE any emerge) you take the comb & toss it in the deep freeze. After it's been frozen solid for a couple days you can feed it to the chickens, or simply cut the wax out and throw it out. The end result is you just lured most of your varroa into those nice, juicy, drone larvae & then froze 'em to death with 0 chemicals used


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

That does sound like a good idea.... wonder how well it works?


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

JD's Bees said:


> I don't think you need to panic. The alcohol wash normally is done with 1/3 cup of bees so with 1 cup of bees you only have 9 mites/900 bees or a 1% infestation.


Agree. The threshold for mites is 3%, 3 mites per 100 bees. JD right, you have mild infestation. Again, in my opinion, the absolute number is not telling much. You need to see a dynamic - are your numbers steady or growing  or decline 
Also - do not panic, most of the bees in US have some mites. Am I right?

Irresponsible treatment could just create mite-resistance.


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## mlsthmpsn (Feb 23, 2012)

hpm08161947 said:


> That does sound like a good idea.... wonder how well it works?


I bought some plastic drone frames for this purpose, but only because I was ordering a bunch of other stuff so shipping was covered already. I've been reading up on the effectiveness, and it really is only marginal during a strong hive/laying queen scenario...this is due to shear numbers of capped brood vs. bees vs. drone brood on a frame (max 1500 or so on a solid drone frame)....you will still have way more mites entering the brood cells vs. the drone cells because their is just way more brood cells to occupy in a strong hive.

One theoretical method I found interesting, where drone comb trapping is almost 100% effective, if you incorporate it into a broodless scenario such as a split and trapping the queen on the drone comb for a set amount of days (can't remember) then culling the frame. Almost 100% of the mites will have entered the drone comb at that point, and removing the frame will remove the mites.


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

When determining the mite load on a colony, whether brood is present, or not, needs to be taken into the equation. Nobody has factored that into their recomendation. His mite load is actually twice as high as everybody is suggesting. 3 mites in a hundred bee sample equals 3% load right? I disagree. Brood is present. 3% is doubled to 6% since there is brood present. This takes into account the mites under the cap. Does he really have a 6% infestation level? Most likely. Should he consider treating? This early in the year, most likely. By fall the damage will have been done. I've read that the recommendation in Canada is to treat whenever the load reaches or exceeds 2 1/2%. By Canada standards he should treat. 

2 main products to choose from, MAQS, or Hopsguard. Both can be used with supers on the hive. Both will give you quick knockdown. MAQS says they'll get mites under the cap. Hopsguard does not. Hopsguard would give you a flash treatment only. No temperature consideration for Hopsguard like there is for MAQS. Check the University of Minnesota Bee Lab for the verification of the math equation.

Wisnewbee
Honey Luv Farm


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

cerezha said:


> Irresponsible treatment could just create mite-resistance.


Herein lies the key to pandora's box! Irresponsible use of chemical treatments for _anything_ unavoidably leads to chemical resistance, followed by having to find new (usually more toxic & with more adverse side-effects) chemicals to use for the same problem...then the cycle repeats.......ad infinitum.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

According to my understanding a full cup represents about 600 bees so 9 mites would be about a 1 1/2% infestation. That is a real low number with no brood present. However this early in the season and, presumably, with a lot of brood in the hives I would consider this a marginally high number that could well mean trouble a few months down the road. I would recommend either a hop guard or a thymol treatment to give the needed brood break and mite reduction.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

robherc said:


> Herein lies the key to pandora's box! Irresponsible use of chemical treatments for _anything_ unavoidably leads to chemical resistance, followed by having to find new (usually more toxic & with more adverse side-effects) chemicals to use for the same problem...then the cycle repeats.......ad infinitum.


yes, agree!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I am aware of no resistance issues with formic, oxalic, thymol or hop guard. All except hop guard have been in use for quite a few years now. Amitraz products, though still effective, have had some reports of resistance starting to show up.


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

Robherc; I can understand and respect your position in regards to treatment resistance. That does not mean I agree with it. Here in lies the secret to IPM. rotating treatments, and only treating when the infestation level warrants. This greatly reduces the probability of breeding for resistance.

Let me state it another way. Fair chance that the mites will increase in population. Too high and the colony will possibly collaps. If he treats he will most likely reduce the mite and virus loads, so he still has bees next spring. If he doesn't treat, and the hive collapses, what will he pay for a new package? $2.40. That's all it will cost to treat the hive with Hopguard. That's a lot less then the cost of a package of bees. It's cheap insurance. Good management.

Wisnewbee
Honey Luv Farm


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> ... Amitraz products, though still effective, have had some reports of resistance starting to show up.


 I do not remember where, but it was clearly stated in some official document (related to bees) that Amitraz is not effective anymore *because* of overuse and improper use (saving money - using 1/2 dosage) by beekeepers... I guess, it was EPA report or something... sorry for not providing proper link, but we have a million threads there discussed this issue.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Wisnewbee said:


> Robherc; I can understand and respect your position in regards to treatment resistance. That does not mean I agree with it. Here in lies the secret to IPM. rotating treatments, and only treating when the infestation level warrants. This greatly reduces the probability of breeding for resistance.


Actually, what you & I said is pretty compatible...notice I qualified my statement that _*irresponsible*_ use of chemicals.....
My _personal_ conviction is to try very hard to use no, or at least VERY little, chemicals in my hives & on my crops; that said, I believe others have that choice to make, or not make, for themselves, so long as they use responsibility & good sense if they choose to use chemical treatments


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

cerezha said:


> I do not remember where, but it was clearly stated in some official document (related to bees) that Amitraz is not effective anymore


I wonder if you are not thinking of Apistan?


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

No, he's talking about Amitraz. Randy Oliver's website scientific beekeeping mentions it in a couple places. Randy comments on Amitraz loosing it's effectiveness in areas such as California. Around here we have not seen this happening yet. It will happen, it's just a matter of time. Please remember that continued use of chemical controls do result in a more hardy mite population. Nothing is 100% effective (and still have live bees) so those survivors are going to be tougher to control. I'm convinced the solution is in the genetics and that's the path I've chosen to pursure. But until I get to that point, I will still have to use something to control the mites chemically. I rotate treatments and test for mite levels several times a year. I take mite control VERY seriously.

Wisnewbee
Honey Luv Farm


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Wisnewbee said:


> No, he's talking about Amitraz. Randy Oliver's website scientific beekeeping mentions it in a couple places.


Randy Oliver's website says Amitraz is not effective anymore.... that is a pretty definitive statement.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I agree that 9 mites out of a 600 bee sample isn't a high number when the hive is building up. That's only 1.5% A 1/2 cup sample of bees = 300 bees.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Every hive has mites. It's a matter of keeping the mite population at a managable level. MAQS every summer before August 15th kills enough mites to survive the winter with no brood break here in California. If you don't treat with something, your hives will surely die. Small cell, essential oils and all other "old wives tale" remedies don't work.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Charlie B said:


> Every hive has mites. It's a matter of keeping the mite population at a managable level. MAQS every summer before August 15th kills enough mites to survive the winter with no brood break here in California. If you don't treat with something, your hives will surely die. Small cell, essential oils and all other "old wives tale" remedies don't work.


I'm curious how you view those beekeepers who don't treat, and whose hives do not die.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I view them as good beekeepers who are lucky.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I think your mite counts are ok and you can wait until the flow stops. Our Tallow is normally finished by the first part of June. I treated last year with Apigaurd right after Tallow but, before Cabbage Palm with very good results. I would be very careful of using Quick strips this time of year in Fl. It can be pretty hard on brood and queens when temps get into the upper 80s.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Come on Charley you where one of us. 
You know I haven't treated with anything other than powdered sugar for 5 years & my winter loss numbers are lower than most members of my club. Its a little more than luck.



Charlie B said:


> I view them as good beekeepers who are lucky.


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## Jared Waites (Apr 17, 2013)

Sorry for not responding. I wasn't getting notifications. Fixed that. Anyhow the bee inspector said it was time to treat due to deformed wing virus and recommended hopsguard. Said it was safe for use during the flow. We are in nectar now but it only gets better into July. Then seems to slow a little until Fall. We make honey just about year round here! 

So now knowing that my bees have DWV. Should I treat?


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## Jared Waites (Apr 17, 2013)

Oh yeah. What the heck is MAQS?


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## MelanieWoosley (Nov 11, 2012)

Jared Waites said:


> Oh yeah. What the heck is MAQS?


Mite away quick strips


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Jared Waites said:


> So now knowing that my bees have DWV. Should I treat?


Yes.

To me, DWV means a pretty serious and evil bunch of mites and I would want to do something fast. Hopguard seems too iffy and weak.. at least IMHO... and I would use MAQS if the temp. range in FL is right.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Charlie B said:


> I view them as good beekeepers who are lucky.


Hmm. This sentiment reminds, in a sort of reverse vampire way, of what John Miller, the bigtime beekeeper, said about CCD when it first made the news. He attributed CCD to PPB-- Piss Poor Beekeeping. After he lost most of his hives, he had to change his tune.

My own feeling is that someone who seems to be consistently lucky is probably relying on something other than luck.



> If you don't treat with something, your hives will surely die.


I don't think the available evidence supports this view.


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## Jared Waites (Apr 17, 2013)

It's 74 degrees here. Is that too hot to apply MAQS?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Perfect....


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## Jared Waites (Apr 17, 2013)

Ok! Do you guys glove up when messing with this stuff?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Jared Waites said:


> Ok! Do you guys glove up when messing with this stuff?


Good thick dish washing gloves work for me.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Jared Waites said:


> It's 74 degrees here. Is that too hot to apply MAQS?



No, but llok out for sunshine and hot temps. Its 80+ in the hive... Try to keep them shaded if temps are going any higher. The problem is if you have DWV its highly contagious, and very bad for a hive, worse than the brood loss from MAQS..... if your real nervous, put your queens in a single frame nuc while you treat, then put just the queen back when done.. you get a break in brood and the MAQS perks.... then leave the singles as a walk away, or combine a cpl of them as walk aways.

Charlie


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

What's the weather forecast for the next week? That's important if using MAQS. VERY temperature sensitive! Hopguard is not temp sensitive. MAQS can be hard on brood and queens if it gets too warm outside.

There is a how to in the diseases and pests section on the use of MAQS. It's a sticky and at the top of the section. I've used MAQS and will be using it anymore due to temp sensitivity and queen issues. I also don't think it's as effective as it needs to be. I used it side by side with another method last year in the same yard and the MAQS performed worse then the other method. 

If you're seeing DWV *AND* the inspector is saying you should be treating, the obvious answer to your question is yes, you should treat. The same answer I gave several days ago.

Wisnewbee
Honey Luv Farm


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## Jared Waites (Apr 17, 2013)

Ok thanks. I think I'm going to use Hop Guard so it's not too rough on my brood. 

I've noticed in beekeeping there are many different methods to achieve the same result. Some however work better then others. Some use powder sugar shakes to kill mites, some only to do a mite count, some use chems, some don't. Etc.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Even _*I*_ will say "go ahead with the chemical assault" if the inspector told you to treat, AND you have DWV... If it were my personal hive, I'd still probably try other things, but it's not my hive & I'm not there to check on the progress of an "alternative treatment" in your hive, so I'll vote "treat" on this one (well, treat now, then look into other methods to keep the mite count down once treating gets them under control in the first place)


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Jared Waites said:


> Ok thanks. I think I'm going to use Hop Guard so it's not too rough on my brood.


Hopguard will not bother your brood.... nor will it bother the mites in the brood (About 50% of the mite population)..... you need a brood break... you have DWV.... no time to use phoretic miticides.


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## Jared Waites (Apr 17, 2013)

I only saw one bee with messed up wings. It's not the whole hive.


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## Jared Waites (Apr 17, 2013)

And what's a brood break?


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

KQ6AR said:


> Come on Charley you where one of us.
> You know I haven't treated with anything other than powdered sugar for 5 years & my winter loss numbers are lower than most members of my club. Its a little more than luck.


I don't consider those who treat with powdered sugar to be treatment free.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

rhaldridge said:


> My own feeling is that someone who seems to be consistently lucky is probably relying on something other than luck.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the available evidence supports this view.


If the hive has bees with DWV at this time of year..I would agree that hive will surely die unless something is done.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Jared Waites said:


> I only saw one bee with messed up wings. It's not the whole hive.


The Virus is there.... there are more.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Jared Waites said:


> And what's a brood break?


When the queen stops laying for a period of time, thus emptying the brood chamber and allowing the incubating mites to die..... It breaks the generation to generation flow of the mites.


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## Jared Waites (Apr 17, 2013)

So your saying I need to move her out?


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

rbees said:


> If the hive has bees with DWV at this time of year..I would agree that hive will surely die unless something is done.


Well, most hives will die eventually.

I'm only a few miles away from the original poster. I installed a local nuc about 6 weeks ago. In the first few days after installation, I saw 2 bees crawling around in front of the hive with DWV. I was pretty worried.

That hive is booming, and I've seen no more DWV. It's gone from a 5 frame nuc to 17 frames in that 6 weeks and it is chock full of healthy bees.

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I'm glad I didn't treat. It may be that the hive will die later in the year, and if it does I won't be surprised. I do plan to make the hive go through a brood break at some point before fall. I'm in the learning phase, and expect to lose bees. It's part of my self-education.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

rhaldridge said:


> I'm only a few miles away from the original poster. I installed a local nuc about 6 weeks ago. In the first few days after installation, I saw 2 bees crawling around in front of the hive with DWV. I was pretty worried.
> .


Are you sure it was DWV? And not just damaged wings from a bee fight. His DWV was ided by the inspector if I remember correctly. Are you not a newbee?

If the colony had DWV it would not heal itself.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Jared Waites said:


> So your saying I need to move her out?


No the MAQS will shut her down for a period of time.

I suppose you could use hopguard and put the Queen in a queenless nuc for a coupla weeks.... but this kind of manipulation seems a bit too much for a newbee.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

hpm08161947 said:


> Are you sure it was DWV? And not just damaged wings from a bee fight. His DWV was ided by the inspector if I remember correctly. Are you not a newbee?


I am, but I've seen a hundred photos of DWV (mostly after I saw these bees and got panicky.) These were definitely DWV, with the wings shriveled and crumpled. It's a very distinctive look, and I examined these bees under a scope.



hpm08161947 said:


> If the colony had DWV it would not heal itself.


Most hives have mites, so probably most hives have DWV. Not all will eventually collapse, according to my research.

It's my impression, from the research I've done, that numerous DWV bees is often a sign of a hive nearing collapse from a mite overload, rather than a disease like the foulbroods that will get out of hand if ignored. Obviously that didn't happen in my case, at least not yet. According to Michael Bush, if I remember accurately, finding a bee or two with DWV is not something to get too excited about. The theory I find most plausible is that this is a opportunistic virus that primarily affects bees weakened by mites or other stressors.

Of course, I am a newbee, so I could be completely wrong. But it doesn't matter, because I'm not going to treat for mites. So we'll see. There has been no more DWV as far as I can tell, and the hive is booming. If it were an infection that inevitably kills a hive, the hive would not be thriving, or so it seems to me.


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## Jared Waites (Apr 17, 2013)

hpm08161947 said:


> No the MAQS will shut her down for a period of time.
> 
> I suppose you could use hopguard and put the Queen in a queenless nuc for a coupla weeks.... but this kind of manipulation seems a bit too much for a newbee.


I'm ok with that.


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## Jared Waites (Apr 17, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> I am, but I've seen a hundred photos of DWV (mostly after I saw these bees and got panicky.) These were definitely DWV, with the wings shriveled and crumpled. It's a very distinctive look, and I examined these bees under a scope.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree.. The hives I found the bee with a deformed wing is definitely booming. Its thriving for sure! I sent you a message.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Jared Waites said:


> I agree.. The hives I found the bee with a deformed wing is definitely booming. Its thriving for sure! I sent you a message.


It's the fall and winter when the pop starts to dwindle that the mites get you......


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

I have never tested for mites, never treated for mites, and never lost a hive to mites. I don't even think about them.


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

See no evil
Speak no evil
Hear no evil

That doesn't mean they are not there

Wisnewbee
Honey Luv Farm


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Wisnewbee said:


> See no evil
> Speak no evil
> Hear no evil
> 
> ...


What do you think it means that I saw a couple bees with DWV right after I installed the nuc, and none since? I spend a lot of time just watching my hives with binoculars, and I go through each of them frame by frame on a weekly basis, since I'm trying to learn all I can. When I notice a corpse being hauled out, I try to get it once it's been dropped, and then I scope it. Trying to learn. 

Thinking about this, I wonder if those DWV bees were even from my hive. The nuc I got was one that the beekeeper was using as a cell builder in early spring, and he poured a lot of extra bees into it before he let them raise the queen I got. She's turned out to be a great queen, so that part is good.


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

rhaldridge said:


> What do you think it means that I saw a couple bees with DWV right after I installed the nuc, and none since?


It means that DWV is present in the hive. No surprise, as it's present in the majority of hives. Does it really matter where it came from? DWV gets to be trouble when coupled with something else such as Varroa mites. Varroa punture the cuticle of the bee, making an entry point into the bee. A reduced Varroa mite load (vector) on a colony significantly reduces the effects of other diseases and pests (pathogens) Varroa mites compromise the immune system of the bee. That means the bees get sick easier and when they do, it's worse.

Best thing for your bees is to monitor your mite load, treat only when needed, and rotate your treatment methods. This is to reduce resistance buildup. I can't say enough about the importance of nutrition on health either. Well fed, healthy bees can fight off a pathogen much better then a weaken bee.

Wisnewbee
Honey Luv Farm


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

rhaldridge said:


> What do you think it means that I saw a couple bees with DWV right after I installed the nuc, and none since? I spend a lot of time just watching my hives with binoculars, and I go through each of them frame by frame on a weekly basis, since I'm trying to learn all I can.


This time of year, there are a large number of bees in the hive and growing everyday. This large number of bees share the mite load. When the fall rolls around, the population of the hive will slowly diminish, each dead bee leaving behind it's mites. By late fall the mite load will be significant. If your mites are the kind that carry virulent viruses (redundant?) - and DWV is a pretty good indicator of that - you will notice things going very wrong....


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

hpm08161947 said:


> you will notice things going very wrong....


And they can go wrong very quickly too. In a matter of 3-4 weeks you can have a hive that looks to be doing great, to a handfull of bees. Typically right after the honey comes off. This happened to a lot of people last fall. Hobbiest, Sideliner, and Commercial guys alike. Hit us hard too, but we were able to make up our loses. We are testing and treating much differently this year, and we're changing up our genetics to fight Varroa too. We will not let Varroa numbers get above 2 1/2% (adjusted for mites under the cap)this year.

Wisnewbee
Honey Luv Farm


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

To my line of thinking, the last 2 posts make a GREAT argument for a fall brood break, and some selective breeding for genetically varroa resistant bees (such as, though not necessarily, VSH or Minn. Hygienic). Those 2 options, used together, and maybe supplemented with some "wives tale remedies" as they were called earlier in this post (you know, using things that have worked in nature for thousands of years, rather than man-made treatments that generally seem to fail after only a few decades of use) during the parts of the year when the honey flow is on, and a brood break would harm production, should keep your mite load low enough to make other things (such as AFB and SHB) be much more "pressing" issues for you to monitor for


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

robherc said:


> To my line of thinking, the last 2 posts make a GREAT argument for a fall brood break, and some selective breeding for genetically varroa resistant bees


MAQS is best used in the Fall. It will dump the phoretic mites and cause a brood break long enough to kill the incubating mites. But you do need to follow directions. Formic Acid seems pretty organic to me.... but then I am no purist.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

hpm08161947 said:


> .... the population of the hive will slowly diminish, each dead bee leaving behind it's mites. By late fall the mite load will be significant...


 In my understanding, bees, who about to die (natural cause or disease) have a tendency to leave the beehive and die away from home. It is natural protection from spread of disease, infestation etc.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

hpm08161947 said:


> ... Formic Acid seems pretty organic to me.... but then I am no purist.


Yes, formic acid is organic acid, HCl - is inorganic acid...


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

robherc said:


> To my line of thinking, the last 2 posts make a GREAT argument for a fall brood break, and some selective breeding for genetically varroa resistant bees (such as, though not necessarily, VSH or Minn. Hygienic). Those 2 options, used together, and maybe supplemented with some "wives tale remedies" as they were called earlier in this post (you know, using things that have worked in nature for thousands of years, rather than man-made treatments that generally seem to fail after only a few decades of use) during the parts of the year when the honey flow is on, and a brood break would harm production, should keep your mite load low enough to make other things (such as AFB and SHB) be much more "pressing" issues for you to monitor for


Rob, I agree that a brood break would be a good thing. Hygenic bees are a good step, and 1 that I am personally doing this year. However the OP was about what to do now. If he waitsuntil fall to do a brood break, the damage will most likely be too severe to survive. I've used MAQS before and just find them too hard on brood and queens. While Hopguard is only a flash treatment good on phoretic mites, couple a Hopguard treatment timed with a break in brood, timed so the Hopguard is on during the 2 or 3 days of no open brood and you have a great method for knocking the snot out of the mites. Remember that Hopguard is only active while it's moist, so 3 days maybe. I think Beta-Acids have a lot of potential.

Pull the queen a week before your flow. Just as the flow starts put her back in. There is no open brood to take care of so additional bees can forage. As bees emerge they can take care of the larvae beginning to mature. week, give or take a day, apply the Hopguard. There should be no capped brood. Your honey crop may be bigger by doing a brood break like this.

The commercial guy who taught me told me they would pull and bank the queens for 2 weeks just before the flow. By having no open brood, they make more honey.

Wisnewbee
Honey Luv Farm


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

cerezha said:


> Yes, formic acid is organic acid, HCl - is inorganic acid...


I think he was talking about organic like in farming. No synthetics. I don't think he was talking about organic as in chemistry. Easy to confuse.

Wisnewbee
Honey Luv Farm


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Wisnewbee said:


> I think he was talking about organic like in farming.
> 
> Wisnewbee
> Honey Luv Farm


Correct....


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

I think he was talking about organic like in farming.
Wisnewbee
Honey Luv Farm


hpm08161947 said:


> Correct....


Well, than it is "inorganic" 
Formic acid from chemical point of view is a horrible stuff. If ants use it, it just indicates how smart they are - they use a powerful weapon...but in tiny amounts and it still hurts!


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Here is what will happen. if the hive is not treated at all. It will continue in strength through the flow as the number of eggs laid verses the percentage of emerging DWV bees is still small. The bee population built rapidly in spring as normal and the varroa population is lagging behind as the cycle always does. After the flows are over and the we enter a time in summer of reduced forage, higher temps, the queen will slow down so the bee population will level off and begin to decline. At the same time since brood rearing has been in high gear, the varroa population has been growing dramatically So just as the bee population is starting to decrease, the varroa population is increasing. This means that a dramatically higher percentage of brood is infested by varroa and DWV. If left untreated the hive will decline by late August to a point that the SHB will overrun and effectively kill the hive. The best option is to treat after the flow with whichever treatment you prefer. If you treat with MAQS now, you may kill the queen and will definitely stop her laying and kill brood. I would wait until the flow is done and either use Amitraz, which is now approved for use in Florida or Apiguard (Thyme Oil). I have treated with MAQS and still have some in my garage which I need to dispose of, decided it was to hard on the bees. But the ones that survived, thrived. I personally believe the best option is Apiguard. I have never used amitraz but have heard good reports on its use. But for me the chance of trace amounts of the chemical left behind leaves me staying with Apiguard.

In any event, you need to treat immediately after the flows are over to allow adequate time to rebound before the queen really slows down in the fall. (although in our area, that slow down is not a given until into late November. 
We do not have a natural brood break due to the climatic conditions of our area (lower/coastal NW FLorida). A brood break in late July or August is a killer due to diminishing bee populations leaving the hive open to SHB overrun.

Good Luck.

jeb


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

An 8 count from a cup of bees - you're fine. I doubt you will find a colony in your area with less.

As another said, consider treating after the harvest.


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