# Michael Palmer The Sustainable Apiary



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I've known about this video (http://vimeo.com/23178333 part 1 of 2) for quite some time, but hadn't taken the time to watch them until last night. First, I want to thank Michael for sharing his vast knowledge with us and also the Prince William Regional Beekeepers (thanks Karla) for going to the effort to make this video series publicly available. I'm teaching a short course this weekend and plan to reference some of the great ideas presented by Michael. I really appreciated the historical references to Brother Adam near the beginning and the follow-on reference to Kirk Webster. I believe that the techniques presented in this 2-part series are applicable to anyone interested in breaking a package treadmill and wishing to become a more efficient and productive beekeeper.

I do have a couple of questions (hopefully Michael will find this thread)

1. One of the big messages I took away was: don't take resources from your biggest booming colonies to throw at your worst performing colonies, instead re-purpose these dinks into nucs. Of course this is pretty contrary to what is conventionally practiced. My question is: What methods do you employ to control swarming? Your video showed some monster colonies, making 250+ lbs of honey each. 

2. What recommended adjustments do you suggest for different localities? In the Southeast, our honey flow is nothing like that in Vermont. Nectar flows start to peak in early April and usually stay strong through the end of May. June thru September are typically hard months for our bees due to the heat, which results in very little nectar. Getting nucs through this dearth can be challenging. Those around agriculture (cotton and soybeans) don't have this same problem, of course the heat is still an issue.

I definitely recommend setting aside some time to watch this two-part series.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

AstroBee said:


> I've known about this video (http://vimeo.com/23178333 part 1 of 2) for quite some time, but hadn't taken the time to watch them until last night. First, I want to thank Michael for sharing his vast knowledge with us and also the Prince William Regional Beekeepers (thanks Karla) for going to the effort to make this video series publicly available. I definitely recommend setting aside some time to watch this two-part series.


Hey Astro Bee. Thanks so much for the shout out. And yes the biggest thankst o MP for allowing us to video and post and to Paul O who figured out how to do it in great quality. 
We posted this video and merely asked folks for feedback. It has like 4,000 "views" and about 5 have given us feedback.
Email me off line and I can talk your ear off re adjustments for our locale.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Correction. 5,286 "plays" 
Imagine if all of you gave MP $1 for the education.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

I am waiting to give MP $$ for his book, and $$$ for his queens this spring summer :thumbsup:


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

(http://vimeo.com/23178333 part 1 of 2)
We use films at our local Beekeepers meeting, about two years ago Michael was a speaker at the Big Bee Buzz in Tulsa, I very much enjoyed his presentation. At that time he did not have a film. Do you have an address I can get the DVD? We will be meeting the 4th Monday of this month.
Myron Denny
Glencoe Okla


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Re: http://vimeo.com/23178333 part 1 of 2

I would also like to know if a DVD is available for purchase because I would like to show it at my club here in Colorado. Also, is special permision required to show it at a beekeeping club meeting. Please PM me with the information.

Regards,
Steve


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Winevines,

I would be interested in what you have to say about adapting his method to the Southeast. Are you only interested in discussing this via pm and/or telephone, or is in this forum possible as well?


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Specialkayme said:


> Winevines,
> I would be interested in what you have to say about adapting his method to the Southeast. Are you only interested in discussing this via pm and/or telephone, or is in this forum possible as well?


Well I am in the mid Atlantic really, not the South East so keep that in mind. Northern Virginia is a good 5 hours North of you I think. Maybe more. There are two significant differences in management that I have found over the years and they both are about food. For a single nuc of 4 or 5 frames, I have consistently found that they need fondant or other supplemental food by Jan at a minimum. One difference between us and Northern Vermont is that it is warmer here. Often too warm during winter- the bees are more active, break cluster, use up energy and hence, they need food in winter. 

The other difference is no Fall flow- or at least not like folks in the North East describe. We get some nectar, but no way do we get supers of nectar past July and often it can be a dearth. So the nucs can need food as early as July or August, and again a few times in Fall, whereas it seems like in the far North 1 major feed in Fall is good. They probably shut down a little quicker up there too. Temperature and light. And this summer/Fall feeding is a balancing act- a dance between overfilling and overstimulating and giving them what they need. Sometimes you take out frames to manage.

I have come to prefer the 2 story nuc- I use a division board feeder upstairs a lot so it is really 9 frames most of the time. Reason I have come to like the 1 story is purely to have the food they need for a longer period of time, and in Spring, to buy some time as these overwintered nucs really want to expand. And I am talking about deeps

And lastly, I will say that I have started to treat the nucs with apiguard. Sometimes if you treat the Mother colony before you make them up that is sufficient, but last year, mite load was insane. I have lost nucs to mites and that surprised me- but Beltsville analysis proved the massive load that I was blind to. So I really learned from that- at least assess the mite load in the nucs as you would your full size colonies. 
Hope that helps. You have to learn what will work for you in your area best.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Karla, were your nucs with the high mite loads getting a brood break? Also, what % of them did you lose the time you got a Beltsville analysis?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

AstroBee - I am just a newbie, so sorry if this is a dumb question: what is meant by "breaking a package treadmill "?

Thanks.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

So I over wintered 5 nuks this winter they are doing well here in N.Fl. Have ti split one in a couple of days it has swarm cells.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

I have the practical beekeeper book by Michael Bush and look forward to Michael Palmer's book


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

shinbone said:


> AstroBee - I am just a newbie, so sorry if this is a dumb question: what is meant by "breaking a package treadmill "?
> 
> Thanks.


Not a dumb question at all. I'm sure that "breaking a package treadmill" means different things to different people, but to me it means breaking the dependency upon package bees to replace deadouts. Package bees seem to be less likely to survive these days than say a decade or more ago. There have been many reports of early supercedure of package queens and of packages not overwintering well. I believe that getting package bees is probably not a great value for your beekeeping dollar. It is not uncommon to lose a good number of newly started package during the 1st winter. Factor that back into what you paid and you get a better sense on the "true" cost of your bees. I think you'll find that it starts to get pricey. This is not to say that package serve no purpose, but the current implementation doesn't seem to be a good value.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

I have been reading everything I can from Michael, and picking his brain whenever I see him, though that can be hard when there are very many people around. He is in demand! I have been wintering nucs according to his system, for the most part. It has worked very, very well the last three years that I have done it.

Karla is spot on about the differences in our area versus New England. Like she and Astro say, we have little real flow in the summer and a minor flow in fall. Because of that, feeding is necessary to get them through winter. I winter mine in double mediums. If I feed them up in fall they make it until the early spring flows. The dearth in summer is not just a challenge for feeding, but the resultant robbing can be fatal to any weaker nuc. I have found that I have to make my nucs up strong and early. If I can make them up during the spring flow, they become established and can defend through the summer more easily. I also use robbing screens and sometimes I only feed in the evening. I use a division board feeder that stays in the top box year round. 

This past year has been a bad year for mite buildup. I have lost 17% of my nucs, twice as many as previous years.

Fishman- Michael has great queens.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

AstroBee - Thanks for answering my question. 

This is my first winter with bees. I started with 4 nucs in the spring. They struggled all season due to our Colorado drought and my lack of knowing how to help them out. About half way through the summer, I finally realized that I needed to feed them pollen substitute and sugar. They started to grow, but had a very late start, and never built much comb. 

I treated them for mites with Apiguard in November. They went in to winter having 3-4 frames of bees, each, and had not stored much honey or pollen. I wrapped each hive in a Bee Cozey, configured each hive with both a top and bottom entrance, and provided each with granulated sugar a la Mountain Camp. In other words, I did everything I could to help them through the winter.

The smallest hive was dead by the beginning of January. The other three seem to be doing okay. I threw a little pollen substitue into each surviving hive at the beginning of February. Just a few more weeks until it is warm enough to start full scale feeding of 1:1 sugar and pollen substitute.

I've ordered 4 packages and 1 nuc for this coming spring. I will start feeding 1:1 sugar and pollen substitue from day one this time. At this point, it is looking like it will be another drought year for us in Colorado. It will be interesting to see how the packages fare compared to how last year's nucs did.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

winevines said:


> Well I am in the mid Atlantic really, not the South East so keep that in mind. Northern Virginia is a good 5 hours North of you I think. Maybe more.


Thanks for the detailed response Winevines. I guess "south east" is a relative term. I personally view anything below the mason dixon line, and on the east coast, in the "south east." Open to interpretation though. 

Even though Northern Virginia is a good 5 hours away from me, most of central NC and Virginia share the same issues. Some of mine are slightly more pronounced, but it's the same flow schedule. For example, we also have warmer winters requiring feeding in January, we also have no (or little) fall flow, but instead of the possibility of a dearth, we definitely have one. I can't open a nuc up during the month of July without losing it. Learned that the hard way these past few years.

I've had a hard time utilizing the Palmer method where I'm at, mainly because of those issues. We have one main honey flow (Tulip Poplar) that occurs for 30-45 days, usually starting Mid to late April. Usually by the end of May it's done, and clovers usually get me through till mid to late June. From there until the end of August it's just too hot for anything to bloom, and it's a dearth everywhere. The only way I can get a nuc established is to create it before Tulip Poplar and have it build up on the flow. Creating a nuc in mid April has some disadvantages. First, you can't really tell what your "dinks" are just yet. Second, if you make them up too early they will out-grow a 2 story, 4 frame each story set up. The purpose of the Palmer method isn't to create other colonies, but overwintered nucs. Third, I have to get them populated enough to make it through a 4-6 week dearth (and defend against the robbing), but not populated enough to swarm at my second swarm season (usually beginning of August). Fourth, I had a large amount of nucs that absconded (likely due to robbing pressure and heat).

I'm working to overcome these issues, but it's proved challenging. It doesn't work here quite like it does in VT, where you take dinks and overwinter them as nucs in the fall for next year. No fall flow makes that impossible.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Specialkayme said:


> Third, I have to get them populated enough to make it through a 4-6 week dearth (and defend against the robbing), but not populated enough to swarm at my second swarm season (usually beginning of August).


SK- About 30% of my nucs end up as triples because of this. (They are mediums though)


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

rkereid said:


> SK- About 30% of my nucs end up as triples because of this.


I dealt with that issue a little last year, unsuccessfully. I had two nucs that ended up being 5 stories of mediums. I finally said screw it with the nucs, and put it into 10 frame equipment. I obviously made it too strong and/or too early. 

A few others I made as 2 frame (deep) colonies, and they didn't build up enough to defend themselves against the robbing frenzy of the dearth.

I even had one that expanded into a two story five frame deep that still couldn't defend itself from the robbing. But I think they were weakened out due to mite issues. That experience opened my eyes to the need to treat nucs.

I'm still working on finding a happy medium though.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Specialkayme said:


> I dealt with that issue a little last year, unsuccessfully. I had two nucs that ended up being 5 stories of mediums. I finally said screw it with the nucs, and put it into 10 frame equipment. I obviously made it too strong and/or too early.
> 
> A few others I made as 2 frame (deep) colonies, and they didn't build up enough to defend themselves against the robbing frenzy of the dearth.
> 
> ...


Ah yes, the art of beekeeping. Trying to keep robbing down when you would like to be making splits from your booming nucs. It seems as soon as you split they are vulnerable to robbing until they become really well established. That is our challenge with a summer dearth. I'm not sure what the answer is. 

I guess you could remove bees and comb to build up your established colonies, or just do like you did, and move them into an 8 or 10 frame box.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

rkereid said:


> only feed in the evening


That's sad, but I found myself doing exactly the same thing last summer. I would give my smallest nucs about 6 oz of sugar water after dark several times a week. It was a pain, but did manage to get some weight on them.



rkereid said:


> This past year has been a bad year for mite buildup. I have lost 17% of my nucs, twice as many as previous years.


I've heard that same thing numerous times. I can't say that I've seen anything unusual with mites this year. I've got one colony that has struggled, but its still alive. I didn't resorted to treating it last year, but may give it some relief this spring. Overall, my colonies are all looking pretty good.


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## kenr (Sep 25, 2005)

Does Michael have a web sight?


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

Michael Palmer was involved with a "SARE" grant study and is included in a very indepth report at:
http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/assocfiles/933877SARE FS08-223 final report 2011.pdf

If you read all this today you will be busy!!!


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

That SARE activity was not Michael Palmer. It was done by the Prince William Regional Beekeepers Association, in Northern VA. To the best of my understanding, it was based on the teachings of MP.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

AstroBee said:


> That SARE activity was not Michael Palmer. It was done by the Prince William Regional Beekeepers Association, in Northern VA. To the best of my understanding, it was based on the teachings of MP.


He became one of our many collaborators (SARE language). One of the more experienced and wiser guides we met along the way. But the grant was written and awarded before we knew anything about overwintered nucs. Or had even made a single nuc. 

if you are really bored, you can link to the appendix and photos here
I keep wanting to edit and update it, but have not gotten around to it.

http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FS08-223&y=2011&t=1


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## Eyeshooter (Mar 8, 2008)

By going to meetings and not being shy, I have been fortunate to be able to meet and discuss beekeeping with many of the "names" in our industry. Meeting MP was one of best opportunities I have had. We have had MP speak to our club and I was able to host his queen rearing class at my apiary. Mike's thoughts on overwintering nucs has been directly responsible for any successes I have had in the apiary. He does not mince words, is an excellent teacher/lecturer and is always willing to take the time to share what he has learned from his experiences. 

As a group, we beekeepers are lucky there are a number of quality people who are passionate enough to share their experiences with us. Mike strikes me as one of the best.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

AstroBee said:


> I've known about this video (http://vimeo.com/23178333 part 1 of 2)


The Tip jar is now activated.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I would like to respond with a criticism of the Michael Palmer method, hopefully so someone can tell me where I'm wrong (MP himself, if he would like). I'm a big fan of his methods, and I greatly appreciate everything he has and continues to do for other beekeepers. I've used several of his methods in my own apiary. 

One of MP's main points is in regards to smaller operators. Say that a man buys two packages. Maybe a few months later, maybe a year later, maybe a few years later, the packages fail (as colonies tend to do over time). So then they buy two more packages to replace the old ones, only to end up losing them later. Eventually, the individual's wife gets tired of him spending money on packages. Or so the story goes. The solution is to create overwintered nucs to replace your losses.

In a nutshell, say that you want to maintain 10 colonies. If you have a 50% loss over the winter, and you start with 10 colonies, you are now behind. But if you have an equal number of overwintered nucs as you do colonies, if you still have a 50% loss you just turn your nucs into colonies, and presto you now have your 10 colonies. The goal being to take under performing colonies in fall and turn them into nucs for next spring.

But why not just create nucs from splits in the spring, and overwinter twice as many colonies? Essentially, that's what you are doing. In the above situation, if you wanted to maintain 10 colonies, why not overwinter 20 colonies and expect a 50% loss? Then when spring comes around, take your 10 colonies and make splits early on from your least performing stock to get 20 colonies again, ready for overwintering? I see it more as a statistics game than a nuc game.

Now, back to the original point, or the guy that has two packages. If you tell that guy that the one solution to having his two packages NOT die out every year is to buy FOUR packages this year, well that's not much of a solution to his wife. "No, wait, I need MORE packages to ensure that they don't die, dear" If she had a problem with you spending the money on two more packages two years from now, why would she not have a problem with you spending the money on two additional packages today?

But, that part aside, which is more expensive, the two packages two years from now, or the extra equipment for two more hives (or nucs) today? In the end, I think it's probably more expensive to get and maintain a two story, MP style divided nuc than it is to just buy a package in the spring. Then when you add the costs of feed and medications, you are in the negative.

I think there is alot of merit to the numbers and/or nuc game for the mid to larger style apiary. For the small guy, I don't see this method as being advantageous. The only benefit that you get is a nuc that is ready to explode in the spring rather than a colony that is ready to explode in the spring, or a package that you can put on drawn comb in the spring.

Perhaps I'm missing something big though.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Well in my case I pulled a frame of bees from a couple of hives and made a hive (one frame from my best hive) in my queen castle (10 frames). I put a new wax frame in the middle of the strong best hive (better bees Jay Smith). About a week later I removed all the QC and put the frame of good bees back into the good hive and pulled the frame with new wax and eggs and brood of various ages and put that in the nuc. Now I have a frame of QC from my best queen and my strong hive is out what? Nothing.
After I have a frame of capped QC I cut them off with a knife, put my dividers into my Queen castle and make certain all sections have a couple. In my case I had half of the sections laying eggs in a little while. I removed half of the dividers so now I had a divided deep. I did that a second time with the exact same results but I did not have enough new bees to make the winter. Last winter I had one hive make it, this winter I have 3 hives strong and two nucs my only problem is what am I going to do with all these bugs. *No more bee treadmill for me!*


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

It's early days (year 2 of serious nucs), but I also appear to be off the package treadmill. Winter 2011/12 I planned just as in paragraph 4 of the OP - actually almost exactly like that; I went in to winter with 12 10frame colonies in various configurations and 9 2 storey nucs budgetting for a 50% loss. It didn't happen. I had 100% survival.
This winter has been harder. I have lost 4 out of 12 in 10frame equipment, and 1 out of 18 in nuc equipment. Winter is not over yet, and it shows no sign of ending.
A few thoughts: For me the advantage is in the numbers. The original beekeeping course I went on at the U. of MN says overwinter in 3 deeps. That is 30 frames, but with the MP method I have 3 colonies with 30 frames not 1 and I am experiencing minimal losses. I am using Mel Disselkoen's timing and making these nucs with cells much as Minz is doing in mid-June. At my location there is a fairly continuous flow from then until the goldenrod ends in late fall and I have not had to feed most of them more than a gallon of Fum. B and based on new recommendations I'm reconsidering that. 
I didn't buy packages last year, and I don't need them this year. I am using dedicated 5 frame boxes as I don't like dividing the deeps. My experience last year was that the sale of a couple of nucs and a lot of brood added to the revenue my apiary generated. 
I am really interested in seeing how this turns out over time. I was guessing that I would lose 50% and end up with roughly how many colonies I need, but even with this tougher winter it doesn't seem to be turning out that way. I expect to be selling bees again.
What appeals to me about this method is that if you read the experience of MP, Mel Disselkoen, and Kirk Webster none of them are treating the nucs for mites and are having acceptable survival rates.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>But why not just create nucs from splits in the spring, and overwinter twice as many colonies? Essentially, that's what you are doing. In the above situation, if you wanted to maintain 10 colonies, why not overwinter 20 colonies and expect a 50% loss? Then when spring comes around, take your 10 colonies and make splits early on from your least performing stock to get 20 colonies again, ready for overwintering? I see it more as a statistics game than a nuc game.<<

Yes, splitting your colonies in the spring is an option. I did that for decades. What about honey crop? Now I don't pretend to know how to keep bees in NC where you are. I do know that if I split a strong colony at dandelion bloom here in Vermont, I lose some part of my honey crop. If we get cold and wet weather following dandelion, I can lose much of my crop and my splits don't build up well. If we get hot dry, the same thing happens. You get hot dry and your flow ends early. So spring splitting costs you part of the crop because your flow is early on, early done. Yes?

Are your 5 remaining live colonies ALL strong enough to split? Some years yes, some years no. And if not, then what? 

>>But, that part aside, which is more expensive, the two packages two years from now, or the extra equipment for two more hives (or nucs) today? In the end, I think it's probably more expensive to get and maintain a two story, MP style divided nuc than it is to just buy a package in the spring. Then when you add the costs of feed and medications, you are in the negative.

What does a full sized bee hive cost now a days? Nucleus colonies cost less to set up. The woodenware is less expensive, and the bees are free. How much time is spent in managing the production colony versus the nucleus colony? Do you not have to feed a production hive some years? Some years, production colonies suck down 4 or 5 gallons of feed, while a nucleus colony would take only one, two max. If you are a medicator of production colonies, you might like to know that summer made nucs don't need treatments.

>>I think there is alot of merit to the numbers and/or nuc game for the mid to larger style apiary. For the small guy, I don't see this method as being advantageous. The only benefit that you get is a nuc that is ready to explode in the spring rather than a colony that is ready to explode in the spring, or a package that you can put on drawn comb in the spring.

If only all our production colonies were ready to explode in the spring. Is that what you find? Really? I only wish it were true. I find colonies like that, but also colonies that are struggling to stay alive. What do you do with those? Equalize? Re-queen? 

>>Perhaps I'm missing something big though. 

Maybe you are. Do you buy queens in the spring for splits and re-queening? Do you buy into the premise that we can't have our own queens early in the season, so buy them from southern producers? My good friend in AL says he has trouble getting queens early enough. Really? In AL? Never would have thought that...but...If you look at nucleus colonies as being a queen with support staff, that premise changes. We can have our own queens as early as we want in the season. Good, tested queens.

And what does it cost your apiary in resources to set up summer nucs? A frame and a half of brood and bees and a frame of honey? Not much. What does a package cost? Way more. What does a split cost? Way more.

What loss does your apiary suffer every year? 50% you hint at. So with a 50% loss, are the remaining colonies strong? If not, what to do? Removing the old queen and giving the colony one of the nucs will amaze you. And that 50% loss won't happen in your nucleus colonies as it does in your production colonies. I see less that 10% loss in my nucs, but usually 15% in my production colonies.

I don't believe it is a case of large apiary versus small apiary. The benefits of having a supply of nucleus colonies in your apiary are many. Colony replacement and colony re-queening are two obvious reasons. Dr. Connor is right...having 2.5 colonies has its advantages. So was Brother Columban who, in 1905, recommended wintering nucleus colonies. The wintered nucleus colonies could be used to produce excess combs of brood that are used to boost production colonies for honey production. Or, take it further...the idea of using nucleus colonies as brood factories. That brood can be used to boost production colonies, boost cell builders, or to make additional nucleus colonies.

Raising your own stocks...I'm hearing George Imrie's voice...makes you a beekeeper and not just a bee haver.

And then there's Adrian Quiney's "F" word. It's so darn much FUN!

I could go on and on, but I gotta get back to work.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

MP, you have influenced me trememdously on the value of producing your own nucs, both to have around in production season for brood factories and requeening, to overwinter to cover losses, or for building up hive numbers in your operation. Really, it doesn't take alot of resources to make a nuc as you pointed out, if you can raise your own queens to stock the nucs that's even better, that's something I have to work on as my success at doing that has been extremely low lately. I find that letting my queenless bees in nucs raise their own queens just doesn't cut it, too much time lost and low successful matings. I plan to make nuc production a big part of my future for all the merits that they provide for the beekeeper. John


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jmgi said:


> Really, it doesn't take alot of resources to make a nuc as you pointed out, if you can raise your own queens to stock the nucs that's even better, that's something I have to work on as my success at doing that has been extremely low lately.


Support your local queen producers.


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

jmgi said:


> MP, you have influenced me trememdously on the value of producing your own nucs, both to have around in production season for brood factories and requeening, to overwinter to cover losses, or for building up hive numbers in your operation. Really, it doesn't take alot of resources to make a nuc as you pointed out, if you can raise your own queens to stock the nucs that's even better, that's something I have to work on as my success at doing that has been extremely low lately. I find that letting my queenless bees in nucs raise their own queens just doesn't cut it, too much time lost and low successful matings. I plan to make nuc production a big part of my future for all the merits that they provide for the beekeeper. John


Have you tried mel's method for queen raising? Although they are e-cells, Its fairly fool-proof and essentially, you use your strong breeder colony as a starter finisher. You could even add brood from another colony to get various types of queens. It worked fairly well for me last year the queens were good, my problem was the brood break was not enough to suppress mite populations. I had treated the mother colonies with formic vapour before dividing them. I could not believe how many dead mites there were - thousands. I thought well surely they have have been severely knocked back. Well I was wrong. Those mites really destroyed my strong nucs just like others have mentioned. This year I'm taking no chances with mites. I have made 5 frame fume boards as well. Not only will I treat mother colonies, but I can treat the nuc with a fume board before adding the queen cell.

Do not underestimate those mites - lol there is a reason why its last name is "destructor"


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> >>?
> > If you are a medicator of production colonies, you might like to know that summer made nucs don't need treatments.


This is one statement I would think carefully about. Small sample size here... the only OW nucs I have lost all had high mite loads as the only sign of loss. Clearly the Mother colony had high mite loads when they were made up. Treating Mother colonies first and/or treating he nucs have increased my survival. it could be that some years the mite loads are higher coming out of Spring- this also seems to potentially be a new dynamic I am seeing in my area.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Specialkayme said:


> But, that part aside, which is more expensive, the two packages two years from now, or the extra equipment for two more hives (or nucs) today? In the end, I think it's probably more expensive to get and maintain a two story, MP style divided nuc than it is to just buy a package in the spring. Then when you add the costs of feed and medications, you are in the negative.


Then use individual nuc boxes. They will work just fine in your area. 
I am a huge fan and have had great success with MPs methods. I started with 2 colonies in 2006. I have about 28 surviving winter right now - many with my own raised queens. I have only bought 3 packages since my first 2 in 2006. The rest of the colonies are from making my own increases and a couple of swarms.


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## jeremygrenon (Mar 15, 2013)

I used to work for Mike here in VT, and the way we controlled swarming (besides making nucs) was to reverse the hives just around the dandelion flow, in all honey producing hives. Create space above the queen, the bees won't naturally move down to open space. The queen could be in a hive with empty comb down below, but could still want to swarm because the queen 'feels' the hive is out of space to lay brood. We would lay the hive down--then do brood counts, and checking the health of the hive etc. then replace the top box on the bottom board and continue the same way with the rest of the boxes.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Michael, thank you for taking the time to reply, this has been invaluable to me.



Michael Palmer said:


> So spring splitting costs you part of the crop because your flow is early on, early done. Yes?
> 
> Are your 5 remaining live colonies ALL strong enough to split? Some years yes, some years no. And if not, then what?


But, I thought the goal was to split your non productive colonies? The ones that you don't get a honey crop from anyway. There may be a difference in opinion as to "non performing." I don't know about VT's average, but in NC state average is 35 lbs of honey per colony. So a non performing colony here is 5-10 lbs of honey, or none, when others are getting 35+. That's surplus, of course. I don't lose much, or anything, by splitting up non performing colonies early on, as opposed to late. Of course, if average is 100 lbs, and non performing is defined as 60 lbs, then that's a different story.

For my area of NC, typically Tulip Poplar is our only main flow. That occurs from April 1 through April 30th. After that, you usually get enough blackberries and clover to have hives build up nicely, but not enough for a surplus. All through mid June, when the dearth hits. Then it's not a drop of nectar until August 1. Some years we get a good fall flow for them to put stores on (of which they have none because they used everything up in the dearth), but some years you get nothing and it's just feed feed feed. Making nucs around June 1 is suicide, as robbing frenzies will destroy anything you make. YOu can make up nucs in August, but it's a gamble (that I've lost in the past), as if there is no flow it'll cost you an arm and a leg to get them to store in time for winter (which around here is usually mid to late November). So, for me, I've found nucs made any time in April or early May will do fine. Sometimes they build up too soon and make colonies. Depends on the year. All seasonal, obviously.



Michael Palmer said:


> What does a full sized bee hive cost now a days? Nucleus colonies cost less to set up. . . . Some years, production colonies suck down 4 or 5 gallons of feed, while a nucleus colony would take only one, two max. If you are a medicator of production colonies, you might like to know that summer made nucs don't need treatments.


I'll agree with the feed part, but disagree with the medications part. I've made up nucs that collapsed from varroa. More than a few actually. If I keep them as a nuc long enough to have them expand into 10 frame equipment, they don't need medications. If you make them up in the fall, they usually don't need medications, but in this area they usually don't make it through (not enough flows, or too much robbing). If you make them up early enough before the dearth that they can survive through it, they will need medications usually by mid/late dearth in order to not get overrun.

So for me, the woodenware may cost less, but not much less than 10 frame equipment. Medications may need to be less than with production colonies, but not less than half for me. Time wise you'll win out on, I'll give you that.



Michael Palmer said:


> If only all our production colonies were ready to explode in the spring. Is that what you find? Really?


Certainly not all production colonies explode. But not all overwintered nucs do either. A larger percentage of overwintered nucs will explode in the spring than production colonies, by far. But most of the time when a production colony explodes, it does so much faster than an overwintered nuc. At least one's I've had.



Michael Palmer said:


> Do you buy queens in the spring for splits and re-queening? Do you buy into the premise that we can't have our own queens early in the season, so buy them from southern producers?


I buy some queens, mainly to try different genetics out and mix things up. I don't rely on them for spring splits and requeening.

As far as getting them from the south, I consider myself in the south, lol. I could buy some queens and get them maybe a week or two before I can make them myself, but it really isn't worth it in my opinion. I usually graft some time around the second week in Feb through the last week in Feb. I get queens (my own) around April 1 at the latest. This year the queen in my cell finisher squeezed her way past the excluder and destroyed my first batch of cells. So I got set back one round. I'll make up mating nucs tomorrow, and should have laying queens by the end of the month, maybe first week in April. That's good enough for me.



Michael Palmer said:


> And what does it cost your apiary in resources to set up summer nucs? A frame and a half of brood and bees and a frame of honey? Not much. What does a package cost? Way more. What does a split cost? Way more.


But you are only looking at the cost of the frame of brood and frame of honey. A summer nuc, to the guy that's starting out, costs way more than that in equipment, feed (depending on the area), and medications (depending on the area). Here's how I see the breakdown:

1. I have a package of bees in a hive. I let it die, and I reorder a package of bees. Costs about $85.

2. I have a package of bees in a hive. I know it _will_ die, so I get a nuc set up ready to go. I have a one hive system, so I need to buy a queen. $25 plus shipping (usually around $15, unless bought locally). I need a new two story nuc system, with frames, which if I buy retail (which I don't, I build my own, but the guy with one hive won't) it could cost me $65 easily. So now I'm at $90-115. Now add in some feed and medications, and I could easily be at $125-135.

Now, between the options, I realize that number two you'll get to keep the woodenware, so if you need to repeat the process next time it will cost you much less. But initially it costs more. Which goes to my point about the small time guy that has his packages continuously die out on him. He goes to his wife and says "I know that I was spending $85 on a package per year, and that wasn't working, I realize that. And you don't want me to spend another $85 on a package only to have it die, which is reasonable. So why don't we spend $130 on a nuc, in addition to my package, so I won't have to spend the $85 next year?"

The system works when you get into a larger number of hives, even as low as 10-20. But at the low hive count, I don't see how it makes sense.



Michael Palmer said:


> What loss does your apiary suffer every year? 50% you hint at. . . . I see less that 10% loss in my nucs, but usually 15% in my production colonies.


Good god no. I was just using an example. Average, over the years, is probably closer to 30%. I've had some years where I've had total losses, some where I've only lost 5%. This past year has been brutal for me, and I've seen a 45% loss. But that's above average, as is everyone in my area from what I've heard.

You certainly have more experience with nucs than I do, so if you have nailed down an overwintering system with nucs, that alone may make the system much more valuable. 

But for me, I have a larger loss from nucs in the summer and fall than I do in the winter. I have some nucs that abscond, some that get robbed out (or a combo of the two) and some that get overrun by SHB or Varroa before they could really get strong. So if I could get a 10% loss from overwintering in nucs, that wouldn't be bad, but you'd have to add into it my 30% summer and fall losses, which changes the numbers quite a bit.



Michael Palmer said:


> I don't believe it is a case of large apiary versus small apiary. The benefits of having a supply of nucleus colonies in your apiary are many.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating the abandonment of nucs. I think they have significant advantages in an apiary. Like you said, replacement queens, brood factories, cell builders/finishers, comb builders, ect. But I still think a larger apiary has more uses for those than the smaller yards. Does a guy that has two hives, only for pleasure, really need to have a nuc as a brood factory, to strengthen his "weakest" hive? Probably not. Does he need a cell builder/finisher, or a comb production nuc? I doubt it.

I also dispute Dr. Connor's 2.5 hive mentality. I deal with alot of new beekeepers. I think the more colonies you can get when starting off, the better (to a certain degree). You'll see more, be able to compare more, and have more resources in the event things don't go fantastic. But when you tell someone that is starting off the price of the woodenware, the price of the package or nuc, and the price of a full size hive (if they want to buy it), along with the price of a suit, smoker, hive tool, feeder pail, ect, they start to feel uneasy. You can drop $700 easy to get started with one hive. For a hobby that some have never tried, thats a significant investment in bugs. I get that. Telling them "you know, it really would be better if you could drop another $500 to get started. You really won't be able to see the full benefits unless you put the full $1,200 down." I see people walk away right there. Too expensive. I'd rather just buy honey from a farmer's market. And I don't blame them. Getting started with one hive, seeing if you like it, then expanding from there makes sense to me, financially. If you can afford the extra 1.5 hives, you should. But I think it's wrong to tell people they need to. Just my take on it.



Michael Palmer said:


> I could go on and on, but I gotta get back to work.


Thank you for taking the time to write this. I've enjoyed the back and forth, and being able to pick your brain a little.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Raising your own stocks...I'm hearing George Imrie's voice...makes you a beekeeper and not just a bee haver.


Labels ... If you put a box of bees in your back yard those that don't have any will call you a beekeeper. There are far more back yards without a box of bees than with a box of bees.

With the tiny bit of experience that I have with bees I have concluded for myself that except for the equipment cost most of the advantages of a nuc are realized by splitting a full size colony when you are speaking low numbers. For instance if you only wanted two hives you will have to invest in four hives worth of equipment but only one time. Four hives worth of equipment would allow you to make 6 to 8 hives in the spring by splitting. At some point you would have to combine the dinks or sell the extra off.
I suppose if you live in an area that experiences droughts you would have to make hard decisions. If you are not going to get a crop anyway you could down size. It is a lot easier to down size then up size I feel.


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## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

Nucs are the best way to go for myself and my area. Three years ago I bought three packages for $225.00 and they were all dead by next spring. After learning how to make and keep nucs alive, I have spent almost nothing on my nucs. This past winter has been hard on my bees with a 50% loss of bees, lost 8 main colonies and 2 nucs, I am left with 8 main colonies and 6 nucs. With the way the weather has been over the past few years I just don't feel good about making splits in the spring for fear of losing to much honey.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

winevines said:


> This is one statement I would think carefully about.


You're right Karla. Never say never.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks michael!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> Thank you for taking the time to write this. I've enjoyed the back and forth, and being able to pick your brain a little.


For sure. I appreciate hearing other opinions.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

For what it's worth, I built a few Palmer style nucs (the two story four frame each kind) to try out this summer. If I had a stronger fall flow, I'd try your system fully, but for me it's going to have to be late spring or early summer splits, after my honey flow, rather than fall splits. 

I'd recommend your system to others, and I can't wait to read your book. I'm just not certain I'd recommend your system for smaller beekeepers, or those starting out. But maybe it's just me.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

There is definitely a learning curve in raising nucs. I'm in the middle of the curve now. Great success last year, 50% loss this year. I did have bad varroa damage in most of the nuc losses this year [didn't treat them]. I need to rethink that this fall. I will monitor mite levels in my nucs from now on.


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## jim81147 (Feb 18, 2013)

So does Mr. Palmer have a website where a newb can go to read up on his process ?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i think it's more the recognizing that bees, brood, and queens are bounty of the apiary as well as wax and honey.

michael has caused me to see the virtue of allowing for surplus bees, brood, and queens. the bonus is if done properly, the overall viability and sustainability of an apiary is improved.

heck, you can probably come up with better queens and stronger nucs than some of the ones you can buy.

some of his methods apply to my operation and some don't. 

but for the realization how beneficial it is to make increase and for giving me the motivation see it through i credit mp.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Jim81147, no website, click on the link in post #1 to see what we are talking about. Set aside a couple of hours when you can concentrate - it is a great presentation and you won't want to be disturbed. What I am waiting for is the book.


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## krad1964 (Jun 4, 2011)

I saw the MP nuc videos and was inspired to create some nucs. I started with 9 and lost 1. I have individual nucs, some mediums (3 boxes high) and a couple of deeps (two boxes high). I pushed them together and they share a telescoping top that I made. It was an experiment. All the nucs made their own queens over the summer either as emergency or a swarm cell pulled out of a regular hive. Making some mistakes but learning a lot.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Specialkayme said:


> Getting started with one hive, seeing if you like it, then expanding from there makes sense to me, financially. If you can afford the extra 1.5 hives, you should. But I think it's wrong to tell people they need to. Just my take on it.


What! is this another acebirdism on beesource?
Beekeeping is the cheapest hobby that I have ever tried. Sewing your own cloths is more expensive. The bees do all the work and all you have to do is build the crappiest home that most would not live in.
God love you Specialkayme.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I don't know if you are trying to insult me, disagree with me, or congratulate me.

Whichever it is, I don't think I like it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

:scratch: I am in total agreement with you.


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## cinch123 (Jan 16, 2012)

Is it feasible to start this process with very few hives? I have one surviving colony this year, in a nuc, with a locally produced queen, that I intend to put in a full sized box this spring and have it be my "production" colony. I have two other hives, started from packages last year, that both died over winter. Is it feasible for me to buy two packages, put them on drawn comb and feed to build them up, then split them in early summer into nucs and add queens from my bee club's queen rearing program? I still intend to catch swarms this year (if it is anything like it was here last year, we'll be swimming in them) but I sure would like to have a couple nucs going into winter of 2013.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

Specialkayme,

I feel that Michaels overwintering nucleus would bee advantageous to our climate in the Piedmont-Triad area! My strongest colony in a double ten frame deep hive was on five frames in the bottom deep and five frames in the top deep...

I have noticed that colonies overwinter better in a small column shaped nest, tall and narrow.

Also, I can't keep Georgia bees and queens alive through the winter. My local queens and bees winter great!

Have you read Brother Adams book about keeping bees with nucleus colonies? Jay Smith also writes about overwintering in nucleus colonies!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>My local queens and bees winter great!

no brag, just fact.

most habitat that is desirable for bee, (i.e. a decent amount of wooded area withing a three mile radius, and water less than a minute away), is bound to have surviving wild colonies in the area.

the ones that didn't survive the arrival and onslaught of varroa were replaced by the ones that did survive.

feral bees are not subjected to the same stresses and artificial conditions that kept bees are. they are only subjected to the stresses that nature has to offer.

feral bees produce drones that will introduce their survivor traits to managed bees when there is mating.

the other advantage of raising your own queen is that you have the opportunity to evaluate her and her blossoming colony for performance. you get to select the one's that do really good right out of the gate.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

continued....

combining locally adapted stock with a program of only taking surplus honey after leaving the bees the stores that they need,

and not feeding artificially allow this stock to adapt to the local flows. i have watched mine brood up and brood down in anticipation of the changes in the flows.

it's amazing, they make their decisions three weeks in advance in adjusting their populations to changes of the seasons and resource availibilty.


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

I'm new to beekeeping but have been reading a lot and am really excited about it. I've watched your 2 video's online and have been intruiged and interested in what you've been able to accomplish and glad that you've taken the time to provide this info to the world. Thanks for that. 
I've ordered 2 packages and get them this sunday (easter) so monday should be a fun day as I put them into their new boxes. I've decided to use 10-frame Langstrom hives and have already made several medium and deep boxes in anticipation of hopefully doing well the first year. As there are alot of questions about beekeeping I'm interested in also raising queens and building some nucs - if possible. I was wondering if you have any comments on this idea I have. I've partially taken your process from the video's and extracted a possible formula to accomplish what I'm wanting to try. 

on 1 hive I was going to leave it 'alone' and add another deep if needed, followed by medium supers as needed.

on the 2nd hive I was thinking of either building a dual-nuc deep box - separated so there are 2 'different' sides each containing 5 frames, or perhaps building 2 1/2 nuc-size nucs and putting either of them directly on top of my initial brood box. My thoughts with this is that perhaps I could get the queen to lay into both 'sections' of the upper box and generate some brood that I could then use to make some additional hives with. From what I've been reading the bees will create their own queen cells 'as needed' and this would then give me some 'nucs with brood' along with some queen cells that I could start another hive or 2 with. I should also be able to prevent (if that's possible) either absconding or swarming by reducing the colony size and forcing the 'new hive' to start it's own new hive. If this process works, then whenever I have enough brood in the top 'nuc' boxes - I can just move them into another 'new' 10-frame hive and let them start their own hive. Therodically this should work but I'm unsure if the existing queen - from the bottom and main hive, will lay into the 2 different sections of the nuc boxes. I could also potentially, by using the natural 'over-crowding' process force the bees from the different nucs to make some new queens for me and this would start the process 'all over' again.

thoughts ??

mark


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

camero7 said:


> There is definitely a learning curve in raising nucs. I'm in the middle of the curve now. Great success last year, 50% loss this year. I did have bad varroa damage in most of the nuc losses this year [didn't treat them]. I need to rethink that this fall. I will monitor mite levels in my nucs from now on.


I think the problem was with your brood source. Focus your mite control there and your nucs won't have problems.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

rail said:


> Have you read Brother Adams book about keeping bees with nucleus colonies? Jay Smith also writes about overwintering in nucleus colonies!


Yes, and so did Thomas White Woodbury Esq in 1862, AI Root and CC Miller in 1891, Bro. Columban in 1900, LE Snelgrove in 1946, R O B Manley in 1948, Bro Adam in 1975, Vernon Vickery in 1991, and Kirk Webster in 1995.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> >My local queens and bees winter great!
> 
> no brag, just fact.


Winter??


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> I think the problem was with your brood source. Focus your mite control there and your nucs won't have problems.


thanks Mike


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

So - 
Do you think the queen will lay into the 2 different nuc boxes above and allow me to create 2 different nucs - which I can queen and create a couple more colonies? I'm unsure how the hive will do - and at what point I can create a nuc from a hive - but the idea is interesting. From what I've been able to determine a nuc can be created from 2-3 frames of brood and maybe a frame or 2 of honey/pollen..and of couse a little shakking of 'nurse' bees from the main hive. Once they are put into the nuc box - and if I dont have a queen cell - won't the 'new nuc' create a queen on their own ?


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

Does anyone know if Mike treats for varroa? If so what does he use? I have not treated in 3 years but this past winter lost 50% of my bees to small clusters. 3 years ago I bought a VSH pure breeder queen from Glenn Apiaries and grafted from her. Just wondering if I should roll the dice and try to go 4 years in a row or if Mike has been able to stop all treatments? Thanks-


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

PM him?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Mosherd1 said:


> Does anyone know if Mike treats for varroa? If so what does he use? I have not treated in 3 years but this past winter lost 50% of my bees to small clusters. 3 years ago I bought a VSH pure breeder queen from Glenn Apiaries and grafted from her. Just wondering if I should roll the dice and try to go 4 years in a row or if Mike has been able to stop all treatments? Thanks-


Mike has said in the past that he treats as necessary for Varroa. I'm not sure what he uses. He does not practice treatment free beekeeping.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Mike has also said that he treats less and less, but still treats. I thought he used amitraz. But that was years ago, I don't know what he uses now.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

Thanks guys, I will shoot him a PM and find out what he is doing. Also, does Mike have a a website?


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## Kidbeeyoz (May 8, 2013)

I would like to view the Vimeo video at the start of this thread. It will not download for me. Do I have to sign up to Vimeo first? Is it a trusted site?


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## Card's Honey Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

Just watched the vid. It was great thanks Mike! Does anyone know what he does with the overwintered production colonies to complete the cycle? I am not sure if he mentioned it and don't want to guess. Thanks!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Card's Honey Farm said:


> Just watched the vid. It was great thanks Mike! Does anyone know what he does with the overwintered production colonies to complete the cycle? I am not sure if he mentioned it and don't want to guess. Thanks!


Not sure what you want. I use them to produce honey, and winter them for next year's production colonies.


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## Card's Honey Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

I am wondering how you solve the problem of requeening on a larger scale. Do you take the time to find the queen? Or do you have some other method?


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## MikeinCarolina (Mar 9, 2014)

I watched Mr. Palmer's video on the sustainable apiary late this past winter and am inspired to stop being a victim of weak/dead colonies and scrambling around in late winter - early spring to get enough bees into my hives, soon enough to make a crop of honey and keep my customers happy. Is there an A - Z write up on this method available, which I can find in either a bookstore or online?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Card's Honey Farm said:


> I am wondering how you solve the problem of requeening on a larger scale. Do you take the time to find the queen?


Of course. Remove old queen, and re-queen with a nuc or a queen placed under a push-in cage.


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## Swiftwisdom (Dec 9, 2013)

You da man, mike!


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## Swiftwisdom (Dec 9, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> I think the problem was with your brood source. Focus your mite control there and your nucs won't have problems.


Hi Michael, please explain what exactly do you mean by "brood source"? I understanding that splits somehow aid or facilitate mite control by virtue of overloading the mite to brood ratio to the point of mite collapse. That being said, are you suggesting that one should attempt or strive to cleft brood for doner colonies that we know are relatively mite free? Or where you meaning something else? Thank you in advance.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

It has been suggested that making nucleus colonies will eliminate the varroa problem for a year in those colonies. Using brood from colonies that have high mite loads, and/or signs of pms doesn't work. I've had plenty of nucs fail because the brood source colonies were too compromised by varroa and virus.


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