# Oxalic Acid



## cwood6_10 (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes work great.


----------



## beegineer (Jul 5, 2011)

That is what most everyone uses , brushy mountain sells it in a licensed form and im not sure what it looks like .But I have used the savogran and it vaporized very well using the varrox I purchased this past fall


----------



## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

The OA sold by the bee companies like Brushy Mountain is legal to use in your hive for control of Varroa mites.
The OA sold by paint companies is for bleaching wood. Using it to treat for mites in hives is a violation of federal law. It's probably worth $5 not to cross that line. Brushy Mountain and the EPA deserve some compliance for the efforts they put into the approval.
Just saying...


----------



## wvbeeguy (Feb 20, 2011)

you can order lab grade OA on amazon for very little for a 2 pound bag and that will do you for years


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

taterdan said:


> is the Oxalic Acid that you can buy in the hardware store the same as that we can buy from bee suppliers. (savogran - oxalic acid wood bleach)


Brushy Mountain, 97% pure (as stated on their label). Savogran 99.7% pure. Your choice..........


----------



## beegineer (Jul 5, 2011)

Don't tell your Mid -West girls that savorgran is not lab quality and they won't know the difference and the federallys have bigger fish to fry jmo. But if you are going to vaporize any oxalic acid , do get the proper mask and cartridges for acid vapors that way you protect yourself .


----------



## AWB (Feb 23, 2015)

What is the proper mask for QAV protection.


----------



## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

RudyT said:


> The OA sold by the bee companies like Brushy Mountain is legal to use in your hive for control of Varroa mites.
> The OA sold by paint companies is for bleaching wood. Using it to treat for mites in hives is a violation of federal law. It's probably worth $5 not to cross that line. Brushy Mountain and the EPA deserve some compliance for the efforts they put into the approval.
> Just saying...


But what would happen if I were to treat my top bars with a 3.5% solution and if a little got on the bees


----------



## beegineer (Jul 5, 2011)

For vaporizing OA you need a respirator with replacable cartridges for acid vapors , harbor freight and other hardware stores carry them , as for dribbling a little on the top bars it might help keep them clean lol.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

AWB said:


> What is the proper mask for OAV protection.


Any mask that indicates it is for acid vapors.......


----------



## taterdan (Feb 6, 2015)

Thanks for all the input


----------



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

RudyT said:


> The OA sold by the bee companies like Brushy Mountain is legal to use in your hive for control of Varroa mites.
> The OA sold by paint companies is for bleaching wood. Using it to treat for mites in hives is a violation of federal law. It's probably worth $5 not to cross that line. Brushy Mountain and the EPA deserve some compliance for the efforts they put into the approval.
> Just saying...


 Brushy Mountain did no more in getting OAV approved than any other company. They simply were the first to get labeling and permits. To be honest I don't think they did so to help anything but their business. 
You want to give Credit, give it to those pioneers who took the risks and sampled OAV when it was in violation of labeling, helping develop prodigal for proper usage. We are talking the bees here, Not the bucks.


----------



## beegineer (Jul 5, 2011)

:thumbsup:


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

snl said:


> Any mask that indicates it is for acid vapors.......


Look for the yellow label that signifies organic acids.


http://www.jondon.com/3m-cartridge-filter-p100-organic-vapor-acid-gas-2.html


Additional OSHA info is located here: https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/respiratory_protection.pdf


----------



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I am assuming that this will work when using formic acid as well?


----------



## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

Nabber86 said:


> Look for the yellow label that signifies organic acids.
> 
> 
> http://www.jondon.com/3m-cartridge-filter-p100-organic-vapor-acid-gas-2.html
> ...


Organic acids and acid vapor cartridges are different. Look for the combo with OV- Hepa- and acid vapors


----------



## tazke (Mar 23, 2015)

Tenbears said:


> Brushy Mountain did no more in getting OAV approved than any other company. They simply were the first to get labeling and permits. To be honest I don't think they did so to help anything but their business.
> You want to give Credit, give it to those pioneers who took the risks and sampled OAV when it was in violation of labeling, helping develop prodigal for proper usage. We are talking the bees here, Not the bucks.


Well said!


----------



## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

3M Organic Vapor/Acid Gas Cartridge/Filter 60923, P100 Respiratory Protection along with a 3M 6900 facemask is best

http://www.amazon.com/3M-Cartridge-..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=1WDCVZH7F99BXVBQAMBN

http://www.amazon.com/3M-Respirator...C_UL160_SR99,160_&refRID=13G03K9QP4MDN4YCPYWB


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

sc-bee said:


> Organic acids and acid vapor cartridges are different. Look for the combo with OV- Hepa- and acid vapors


NIOSH has standardized color coding on cartridges.

Yellow = Organic Vapors/Organic Acids

Trust me, you want the yellow one. See page 4:

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/565214O/3m-cartridge-filter-guide-and-brochure.pdf


And page 3 here: https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/respiratory_protection.pdf


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I so thought about letting this (Tenbear's comments) go. In my view if the rule of law is going to mean anything in the US, Beekeepers need to follow what EPA and their local pesticide folks (in Maine it is the Pesticide Control Board) say and rule about different pesticides. Why? It is not so much about killing mites, though of course having a product that works as advertised is a big plus! My concerns are over applicator safety, product residues, the reputation of honey in general and the moral high ground to critique and complain about pesticide applicators that don't follow EPA guidelines. I'll leave it there and buy my OA from Brushy Mountain. I bought an evaporator and plan to use OA now that it is lawful for me to do so. I want EPA to be credible and successful. Beekeepers have enough of a reputation for being cowboys (shop towels, anyone?) as it is.


----------



## Reef Resiner (Jun 9, 2015)

Yes, finally! Thank you for this spoon fed post on the correct mask/respirator to use for OA vapors.


----------



## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I agree Andrew, but the price is highway robbery compared to my hardware store.


----------



## Reef Resiner (Jun 9, 2015)

For sure. It's sounding like OAV is the way to go but the initial expense seems like the worse of it. If its as good as everyone is raving about, im definitely going to want to go in safe. Most likely will pull this financial band aid off later this year or next season.


----------



## Charlestonbee (Mar 26, 2015)

Does anyone vaporize without a mask? I've never used one. I just don't go inhaling it


----------



## cervus (May 8, 2016)

Andrew Dewey said:


> I want EPA to be credible...


Hahahahaha! Good one. Andrew Dewey you are a hoot!


----------



## cervus (May 8, 2016)

I don't use a mask. Extension cord, pay attention to wind direction, and leave in hive a few minutes after vaporization is complete.


----------



## beegineer (Jul 5, 2011)

Andrew Dewey said:


> I so thought about letting this (Tenbear's comments) go. In my view if the rule of law is going to mean anything in the US, Beekeepers need to follow what EPA and their local pesticide folks (in Maine it is the Pesticide Control Board) say and rule about different pesticides. Why? It is not so much about killing mites, though of course having a product that works as advertised is a big plus! My concerns are over applicator safety, product residues, the reputation of honey in general and the moral high ground to critique and complain about pesticide applicators that don't follow EPA guidelines. I'll leave it there and buy my OA from Brushy Mountain. I bought an evaporator and plan to use OA now that it is lawful for me to do so. I want EPA to be credible and successful. Beekeepers have enough of a reputation for being cowboys (shop towels, anyone?) as it is.


Credible not so sure of successful oh ya at 8.6 billion dollar budget request for 2016 oh their successful , I'm sticking with ACE hardware for my oxalic acid with correct dose for my Varrox Vaporizer. Brushy mountains market share will be just fine and yes I'll take some shop towels lol.


----------



## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

It might do the job and have the same name but you do not know what impurities are in it and therefore you shouldnt use it on bees. Im guessing you dont use paint-grade linseed oil in your food.


----------



## Farmercal (May 19, 2015)

What wrong with this mask?
https://www.amazon.com/3M-Organic-R...dp/B000GULTRC?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Pondulinus said:


> It might do the job and have the same name but you do not know what impurities are in it and therefore you shouldnt use it on bees. Im guessing you dont use paint-grade linseed oil in your food.


It does do the job. Does have the same name. And has the same amounts as what Brushy Mtn. sells. Also though lawful to use OAV in Alabama Bushy Mountain will not ship to our state so to use OAV we have to buy from else where.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> Also though lawful to use OAV in Alabama Bushy Mountain will not ship to our state ...

The reason that Bushy Mtn won't ship oxalic acid to Alabama is that Alabama has *not* approved the use of oxalic acid as a varroa control.

Under US law, while the federal EPA has approved the use of oxalic acid as a varroa control, but before it can be used legally in any given state, that state must _also_ approve the pesticide.

A list of the 42 states where oxalic acid is currently approved as a varroa control is available at this page:
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Oxalic-Acid/productinfo/727/


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

They need to update their information. Oxalic Acid was approved for use in Alabama this year. We received the information from our state apiary inspector, Randy Hamann, on 3/15/2016. We can buy from Walmart, Ace, and other stores but can not receive from Bushy Mtn.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, Dadant _also_ says that oxalic acid is not yet registered in Alabama ...



> It is approved in the following states : Arkansas Colorado Connecticut Delaware Florida Idaho Illinois Indiana Iowa Kansas Kentucky Maine Maryland Massachusetts Michigan Minnesota Mississippi Missouri Montana Nebraska Nevada New Hampshire New Jersey New York New Mexico North Carolina Ohio Oklahoma Oregon Pennsylvania Rhode Island South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee Texas Utah Vermont Virginia Washington Wisconsin West Virginia Wyoming
> 
> https://www.dadant.com/catalog/oxalic-acid-m01758


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

No problem with them not selling oxalic acid, we can get all we need at Ace Hardware.


----------



## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Paint grade linseed oil has the same name, contains 99.9% the same as food grade linseed oil, has the same taste and smell, and is quite toxic... 

You dont know if it contains the same stuff, thats my point. You can only know if it contains the same ammount of oxalic acid. 

Just to make a point, I see that they list the ammount of oxalic acid to be between 95 and 100%. This is typical for cheap mass produced chemicals for industrial use/construction etc. as there are no spec. they need to keep. Would you prefere water containing 5% sugar or 5% lye? Its the same right? Both liquids contain 95% water! 

The thing i find most troubeling about this mentality is that you are producing food for other people to eat..


----------



## beehavior (May 20, 2016)

https://www.dadant.com/catalog/oxalic-acid-m01758

There is no way to justify 7 dollars for 35 grams. Lets keep making food even more expensive.


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Pondulinus said:


> Paint grade linseed oil has the same name, contains 99.9% the same as food grade linseed oil, has the same taste and smell, and is quite toxic...
> 
> You dont know if it contains the same stuff, thats my point. You can only know if it contains the same ammount of oxalic acid.
> 
> ...


We NEVER do an OAV treatment with honey super on. I am producing honey for me to eat and would not be doing any thing that harmed my family or my bees.


----------



## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

The 7$ you pay goes to both production and quality controll to ensure that there are no harmfull substances in the product you buy. There are no way to justify risking peoples and animals health for a few bucks regardless of how big you think the risk are. The rules are there for a reason.


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Pondulinus said:


> The 7$ you pay goes to both production and quality controll to ensure that there are no harmfull substances in the product you buy. There are no way to justify risking peoples and animals health for a few bucks regardless of how big you think the risk are. The rules are there for a reason.


Can you supply even one case where people or critters were harmed using oxalic acid bought from somewhere other than a bee supply company?


----------



## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Smart, its not acute toxic so its safe. In how many cases do you think this is plausible enough to be considered? I could give you a dose of poison every day for a year and you would not notice. You would be sick and die in 5 to 10 years but how would you be able to connect it to what i gave you. 

Ofcourse, im not saying you are poisoning people by using your wood-bleach but you sure as hell would not know if it has an adverse effect on people either. So why bother the risk for a few bucks.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Pondulinus said:


> The 7$ you pay goes to both production and quality controll to ensure that there are no harmfull substances in the product you buy. There are no way to justify risking peoples and animals health for a few bucks regardless of how big you think the risk are. The rules are there for a reason.


How do you know that? Has anyone even seen a spec sheet for OA that is being sold by Dadent vs wood bleach from the hardware store? Is either product "food safe"? The EPA says oxalic acid, but I can't find anything about purity or source requirements.


----------



## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

All products that are "food-safe" need to conform to specifications defined by a relevant goverment body. Do you think you can just buy the lable "food-safe" without continuous testing?


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Pondulinus said:


> All products that are "food-safe" need to conform to specifications defined by a relevant goverment body. Do you think you can just buy the lable "food-safe" without continuous testing?


You are making a whole lot of baseless assumptions. You need to back your claims up instead of just flailing about the mouth. 

Show me where the EPA requires the use of food grade OA. Show me what purity the EPA requires. Show me the spec sheet for OA that is sold at bee supply outlets and if they claim it is food grade. Show me what testing is required.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

What the EPA *DOES REQUIRE* is that a registered pesticide be used _*according to the directions on the product label*_. That is US Federal Law!  It is part of the enabling legislation that formed the EPA way back when.

And I challenge someone to show us a label of hardware store oxalic acid that has directions on the label for use as varroa control. 

If the oxalic acid you are using as a pesticide is not labeled for varroa control in beehives, then you are violating the law. Yes, I am well aware that the law is widely ignored, but ... no one should be fooled as to the situation.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> What the EPA *DOES REQUIRE* is that a registered pesticide be used _*according to the directions on the product label*_. That is US Federal Law!  It is part of the enabling legislation that formed the EPA way back when.
> 
> And I challenge someone to show us a label of hardware store oxalic acid that has directions on the label for use as varroa control.


Good one. So my takeaway is that it doesn't matter what is in the package, it just needs to have a label.


----------



## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

I think you can look up the validation papers yourself if you please. I dont live in the U.S but im a toxicologist, i work with pharmaceuticals and have a backgrond from agriculture. So i know a little bit about compliance and regulations.

Easy solutions for simple people.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Pondulinus said:


> I think you can look up the validation papers yourself if you please. I dont live in the U.S but im a toxicologist, i work with pharmaceuticals and have a backgrond from agriculture. So i know a little bit about compliance and regulations.
> 
> Easy solutions for simple people.


I have worked in the environmental assessment and cleanup business for over 30 years. I have a team of toxicologists, environmental scientists, biologists, and environmental risk assessors that report to me. 

I have looked for the papers and cannot find any. It is up to you to back up your claims. If your opinions are true and your are what you claim, the information should be at your fingertips. Would you provide unsubstantiated opinions to your pharmaceutical clients? If you are a professional, show us what you know. 

As a fellow professional, I would really like to know what info you are withholding. I am not beyond learning and have been wrong many times before. Don't leave me hanging.


----------



## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Haha, I dont believe that one bit, if you really do what you say you do you know just as well as me that the specific information you require takes alot of time to find.

With 30 years of experience one would expect you to understand the basics of the trade but as it seems you are what we call a consultant in europe - hired by external firms to find whatever loophole there is. I dont have clients, I work for a international company.


----------



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

The tail may be wagging the dog a little here. We are required to use registered insecticides according to label, but if using something not registered as an insecticide to kill insects, or mites in this case, you are not violating federal law. I have not seen a label on powdered sugar directing its use for dusting mites. Just think about all those kids breaking federal law by using a magnifying glass to kill ants.

Alex


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Pondulinus said:


> Haha, I dont believe that one bit, if you really do what you say you do you know just as well as me that the specific information you require takes alot of time to find.
> 
> With 30 years of experience one would expect you to understand the basics of the trade but as it seems you are what we call a consultant in europe - hired by external firms to find whatever loophole there is. I dont have clients, I work for a international company.



Well you must have spent the time to find the info, so let's have it. Keep dodging buddy, keep dodging.


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> What the EPA *DOES REQUIRE* is that a registered pesticide be used _*according to the directions on the product label*_. That is US Federal Law!  It is part of the enabling legislation that formed the EPA way back when.
> 
> And I challenge someone to show us a label of hardware store oxalic acid that has directions on the label for use as varroa control.
> 
> If the oxalic acid you are using as a pesticide is not labeled for varroa control in beehives, then you are violating the law. Yes, I am well aware that the law is widely ignored, but ... no one should be fooled as to the situation.


But oxalic acid is not sold or labeled as a pesticide! We are required to use registered insecticides according to label, but if using something not registered as an insecticide to kill insects, or mites in this case, you are not violating federal law.


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Groundhwg said:


> Can you supply even one case where people or critters were harmed using oxalic acid bought from somewhere other than a bee supply company?


Still waiting for your proof.


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Pondulinus said:


> Smart, its not acute toxic so its safe. In how many cases do you think this is plausible enough to be considered? I could give you a dose of poison every day for a year and you would not notice. You would be sick and die in 5 to 10 years but how would you be able to connect it to what i gave you.
> 
> Ofcourse, im not saying you are poisoning people by using your wood-bleach but you sure as hell would not know if it has an adverse effect on people either. So why bother the risk for a few bucks.


Note again post #38. OAV is not used while honey super are on the hive.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Groundhwg said:


> Still waiting for your proof.


Proof? I say the sky is red. It's up to you to prove me wrong. It's out there, but have to look for yourself. :lpf::lpf:


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Groundhwg said:


> But oxalic acid is not sold or labeled as a pesticide! We are required to use registered insecticides according to label, but if using something not registered as an insecticide to kill insects, or mites in this case, you are not violating federal law.


You are wrong about oxalic acid. It *is registered* as a pesticide for varroa in beehives. You can plainly see that here: https://www.epa.gov/pesticides/epa-registers-new-miticide-combat-varroa-mites-bees

If a particular container of oxalic acid does not have a label specifying its use to control varroa, then it is a violation of law to use it to do so.

I understand that it is inconvenient to accept this principle, but FIFRA is well established law. In a nutshell ...


> What is a pesticide?
> A pesticide is any substance or mixture of substances intended for Preventing, destroying, repelling or mitigating any pest.
> 
> Use as a plant regulator, defoliant, or desiccant.
> ...


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

“Miticides" are substances that kill mites. Vaporized oxalic acid, or a 3.2% solution of oxalic acid in sugar syrup, is used by some beekeepers as a miticide against the parasitic varroa mite.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> If a particular container of oxalic acid does not have a label specifying its use to control varroa, then it is a violation of law to use it to do so..


Exactly. If you look at any label it will say that you have to store the pesticide it it's original container. Rader, I got to say that you have contributed more to this thread than anyone else. Thanks!


----------



## cervus (May 8, 2016)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> You are wrong about oxalic acid. It *is registered* as a pesticide for varroa in beehives. You can plainly see that here: https://www.epa.gov/pesticides/epa-registers-new-miticide-combat-varroa-mites-bees
> 
> If a particular container of oxalic acid does not have a label specifying its use to control varroa, then it is a violation of law to use it to do so.
> 
> I understand that it is inconvenient to accept this principle, but FIFRA is well established law. In a nutshell ...


I think that's an overly-broad interpretation. Table salt, cinnamon, dish soap, etc. are all "intended" for something else, but also control many pests. Is it against the law to use them ? Oxalic Acid is no different, there is industrial grade, and pharmaceutical grade and any number of formulations in between. I think the actual pesticide registration process in the US was derailed by marketing strategies when in comes to oxalic acid. Someone had a vested interest in approval...and not just for the bee's sake.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

cervus said:


> I think the actual pesticide registration process in the US was derailed by marketing strategies when in comes to oxalic acid. Someone had a vested interest in approval...and not just for the bee's sake.


The history of oxalic acid registration does _not_ support that point of view. 

Years ago oxalic acid was registered in the US as a sanitizer [pesticide] (think toilet bowls). The manufacturer/registrant allowed the oxalic acid registration to expire, and at that point oxalic acid was not a registered pesticide at all. 

Then some enterprising beekeeper figured out that oxalic acid could be used to control varroa. At that point it was illegal under FIFRA to use oxalic acid in that manner, but the law was ignored. As more institutions came to realize the efficacy of oxalic acid in varroa control, the pressure for getting it registered grew. But since oxalic acid was readily available, and cheap, there was no money to be made by a potential registrant/manufacturer in paying for the expensive EPA testing/registration process. Last time I checked the EPA registration application fee alone was over $600,000 and that does not count required testing and lawyers, etc.

Eventually someone persuaded the USDA to be the "sponsor" for getting oxalic acid registered. This allowed the EPA to finesse the application fee issue, and existing studies from Europe and Canada were accepted by the EPA to speed up the process. This is a relatively unusual situation, to say the least, as normally there is a manufacturer pushing the process that expects to make a lot of money from their registered/approved product. The registration process is normally quite expensive, and often contested.

Brushy Mountain seems to have taken the lead in jumping though the remaining hoops to get a properly labeled oxalic acid varroa control on the market and available in (so far) 42 states. Keep in mind _each_ of those states also has a required registration/approval process - WITH FEES - that must be followed. Brushy Mtn has to pay those fees in each state in order to ship product to that given state. For example, I saw the other day that the Alabama new pesticide registration fee is $600.

There is _*no one*_ making big bucks from oxalic acid registration as a varroa control in beehives.

.


----------



## cervus (May 8, 2016)

I understand that, and applaud BM for taking the initiative. But for companies to claim sole-source justification, and charge exorbitant prices for a readily available compound is just wrong. I understand profit margins, but when a treatment comes along that has the potential efficacy that OA appears to have, it shouldn't be wrapped up in dollar bills. It should be made transparently available. It's like Michelin or Goodyear selling air...


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Give your head a shake with the conspiracy and piracy notions! Any markup I have seen for compliant labeled OA compared to hardware store wood bleach would probably make only ten cents difference in treatment cost! This is not one of the five or ten dollar a pop treatments! 

Dry your tears; there has to bee more productive things to moan about!


----------



## cervus (May 8, 2016)

No piracy notions at all. Just saying that 97+% pure OA crystals are available from a whole lot of suppliers. Caveat emptor. It comes down to doing what one thinks is the right thing to do. I'll probably change my mind when the first beekeeper is cited for off-label use of wood bleach.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

cervus said:


> I understand that, and applaud BM for taking the initiative. But for companies to claim sole-source justification, and charge exorbitant prices for a readily available compound is just wrong. I understand profit margins, but when a treatment comes along that has the potential efficacy that OA appears to have, it shouldn't be wrapped up in dollar bills. ....


Your statements are contradictory. It sounds like your really don't understand profit margins and capitalism. 

Did any other bee suppliers step up to the plate during the federal approval process and "invest" their own capital and time along with BM to see this to the finish? If they didn't, then it's their own fault that now they are standing on the outside looking in. 

When a company makes a business investment, they better recover their R & D costs *and* show profit margins later for their efforts, or they will be out of business quickly. These ventures *are* wrapped up in dollar bills, it's just good business strategy.

What if BM had not made an effort to partner in this process? We would probably still not have a "legal" OA treatment option in the US.


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

crofter said:


> Give your head a shake with the conspiracy and piracy notions! Any markup I have seen for compliant labeled OA compared to hardware store wood bleach would probably make only ten cents difference in treatment cost! This is not one of the five or ten dollar a pop treatments!
> 
> Dry your tears; there has to bee more productive things to moan about!


Lots more cost than a dime. Only 35 grams of oxalic acid from Brushy Mtn. is $5.95 and 16 oz. tub from Walmart's {store wood bleach} is $6.95. There are 28 grams per oz. or 448 grams in the tub. So cost per gram from Brushy Mtn. is $0.17 each and only $0.01 per gram for the one pound can.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Groundhwg said:


> Lots more cost than a dime. Only 35 grams of oxalic acid from Brushy Mtn. is $5.95 and 16 oz. tub from Walmart's {store wood bleach} is $6.95. There are 28 grams per oz. or 448 grams in the tub. So cost per gram from Brushy Mtn. is $0.17 each and only $0.01 per gram.


$
The dose for a double deep is 2 grams just to keep a perspective. I paid something around $15 Can. for 1 kg. a few years ago.

I am not surprised at Brushy selling a teentzy package of a little more than an oz. (35 gm) for $5.95 I expect them to get paid for doing the legwork:applause:


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Mike Gillmore said:


> What if BM had not made an effort to partner in this process? We would probably still not have a "legal" OA treatment option in the US.


Brushy would not have partnered unless there was a profit to be made........ AND they appear to be making a "very good" profit from their own sales as well as they are selling to many resellers. They are entitled to whatever profit they receive. No different than a beekeeper selling a nuc for the highest price he/she can receive for it. 

Someone would have stepped up to the plate if BM had not......


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> There is _*no one*_ making big bucks from oxalic acid registration as a varroa control in beehives.


I believe BM is doing very, very well on the sales of OA.......... and again, they (as well as anyone else that sells something) are entitled to it...


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> There is no one making big bucks from oxalic acid registration as a varroa control in beehives.



snl said:


> I believe BM is doing very, very well on the sales of OA...


Let us note that Brushy is selling their labeled/branded oxalic acid (smaller) package for $5.95.
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Oxalic-Acid/productinfo/727/

Also let us note that Dadant is selling oxalic acid in that same size, and guess what - the oxalic that Dadant is selling is a *Brushy Mtn labeled package* of oxalic acid for $1 more than Brushy is selling that same product.
https://www.dadant.com/catalog/medications

If Brushy was really making excessive profit (after considering *ALL *the costs of getting a _registered _oxalic product in the marketplace), then Dadant would not be simply reselling the Brushy product. Dadant would go to the effort of registering their own oxalic acid product and take their share of those alleged "monopoly profits" back from Brushy.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> If Brushy was really making excessive profit (after considering *ALL *the costs of getting a _registered _oxalic product in the marketplace), then Dadant would not be simply reselling the Brushy product. Dadant would go to the effort of registering their own oxalic acid product and take their share of those alleged "monopoly profits" back from Brushy.


What's excessive profits? What the market will bear? Same as selling a nuc.... what the market will bear. 
Maybe Dadant just doesn't want to bother with registration. I understand that there is a "me too" option in registration that makes it easier for the next guy, if they care to do so.

From what I've heard/read, registration costs in each state is not all that expensive. Just a couple of hundred dollars each. But it is the TIME consideration...

After recouping the costs of registration for each state, BM is doing well considering the cost of OA is ....basically zilch. AND they are entitled to every penny.


----------



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

They could be selling OA as a loss leader product to get you into their "store", much like the C-Stores sell gasoline at a loss to get you to come inside to buy a soda, etc.

Perfectly legal business practice.

Alex


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

This thread is akin to arguing that going 56 miles per hour in a 55 MPH zone is illegal, wrong, immoral, imperils the rule of law, is disobeying your government, speed kills, blah blah, etc. Of course, driving 56 in a 55 zone is ILLEGAL, and since going too fast is dangerous, people MAY DIE, and, it is also DISOBEYING the government. My gawd, stop it, you are going to kill someone and topple America.

OA was approved by EPA because it has been in use in Europe on bees for decades with no ill effects on humans. Likewise, the use of wood bleach from the paint section of Ace Hardware has been used in the U.S. on bees to treat mites for many years with no ill effects on humans.

I am sure those arguing that the OA used in bee hives must come out of a container labeled by EPA for such use never drive even 1 MPH over the speed limit. For them, I humbly and gently offer this link: http://stuffaspergerpeoplelike.com/...enforcing-and-rule-enforcement-pissiness-rep/







.


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

shinbone, thanks. A voice/post with sound reasoning, understanding, and knowledge. Time to put this one to bed.


----------

