# 10 frame vs 8 frame???



## Rob46cc

Same old argument??? I am going to get started this spring and I'm looking at which set up to do, all 8 frame MEDs or 10 frame deeps and supers. I think I understand the advantages and disadvantages of each set up. Is there any research showing if there is an advantage or disadvantage to doing 8 frame hives? I like the advantages to me but I would have to weigh my advantages vs the bees advantages. Seems like a lot of peole are going to the 8 frame. Is this just a trend or is there something to it?


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## tsmullins

We run both eight frame mediums and ten frame deeps. Eight frame mediums are a lot more flexible. Easier to work, you don't need a separate nuc box. A new colony may not completey fill two ten frame deeps, but might fill three eight frame mediums. Going foundationless, the medium frames are easier to work. 


A ten frame hive will cost a bit less. 


Shane


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## BeeCurious

I went with all 8-frame mediums for my full sized hives and I have a good bit of 5-frame nuc equipment as well. 

It's handy having one frame size (and box size) to manage. I have a friend that wishes he had all 8-frame mediums too.


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## Bees In Miami

Rob46: It's all about weight! I would encourage you to choose ONE frame/box depth. ALL mediums, ALL deeps, or whatever you choose. Eight vs ten frames is easily adjusted. I can tell you, a medium full of honey is about 40+ pounds, and when it is full of bees, 40+ pounds weighs a LOT!!! I would NOT want to lift a deep!! In fact, I couldn't! 

My choice, now (after starting with deeps for brood and medium supers).... I am going to all mediums. Whether 8 frames vs 10, doesn't really matter as much as the consistent choice of depth. I can mix/match/swap/interchange with no problem, as long as all my depths are consistent. I hope this made sense... :scratch:

Bottom line...it's all about how hard you want to work, and how good your back is! My advice, keep them all the same depth. All mediums for me, from now on, though I have mostly deeps still for brood. If I started all over, they would ALL be 10 frame mediums.


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## KevinR

You didn't post your age/physical shape... I'm 35 and in pretty good shape.. I have zero interest in tossing around deep boxes. I still have a few, but they are more or less on their own..

A 10 frame deep, full of honey and bees can way upwards of 100lbs..

Even the 8 frame mediums get heavy when you carry enough of them far enough. As for 8 vs 10.. I have mostly 8 frames, but I think there are more options with standard 10 frame equipment.. Not that you really need most of them. It really doesn't matter... I see most of my 10 frames, the outside frames weren't used for much.. That's what prompted me to go with 8 frames, since they weren't using them. I didn't see a purpose in buying them.

If your looking at becoming a commercial migratory person with forklifts and hired help... Then I'd run all 10 frame deeps... *grins*

I strongly encourage you to run a standard frame, whether it's mediums, deeps, or shallows. It makes manipulating the hive, much easier.


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## BeeKeith

I heard in a youtube video where Dr. Larry Connor commented that HE had difficulty getting his bees to draw out the two outermost frames. (And I thought it was just me). So, with a shrug of his shoulders, said "why have them?" May not be an exact quote, but some of the knowledged among us will drop a sweeping thought with just a few words. The bees work up easier than out. Keith. 3 years. Or more like 1 year 3 times. Lol


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## Fusion_power

A lot depends on the type flow in your area. Here in the Southeast, there is some reason to use shallows for supers because it allows single floral honeys to be harvested. I would not run deeps for honey, they weigh too much when full. Other than that, I would not run 8 frame equipment for the simple reason that there is no advantage to the average beekeeper. As noted above, the outside frames are tough to get drawn so with 8 frame equipment, you wind up with 6 actual brood frames.

Given a choice, I would use plastic bottoms from Kelley, 10 frame medium boxes with 3 per brood nest, and mediums for honey because it would simplify my operation a bit.


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## BeeKeith

Oops. Double posted


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## BeeKeith

Thanks Fusion power. I wasn't aware of the possible diminishing returns.
Keith


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## Mike Gillmore

I've switched over to all mediums for brood and supers. Makes life so much easier. I think there are many beekeepers who would agree that they notice no disadvantage as far as the bees are concerned in using mediums rather than deeps.

I use all 10 frame equipment. Regarding the bees ignoring the outside frames, that's easy to correct. While inspecting, simply move a capped frame of honey to the outside and move the empty ignored frames in. Particularly in the supers, then they will fill them all.


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## Mr.Beeman

I started with 10 frame mediums for eveything. It simplify's pretty much all aspects of beekeeping maintenance. It is real easy to make two 5 frame nucs as well this way.
Typically the outside frames are difficult to draw (without some manipulation) out whether it be 8 or 10 frame. Question now arises from eight frame hives: 
Since there are less frames, does the brood chamber have to be 4 high instead of 3 for ten frame? Based on medium supers.


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## sqkcrk

Maybe I shouldn't stereotype, but it's faster. I doubt that a young man in the Army is or should be worried about a box of honey weighing too much. I hope I haven't let the cat out of the bag Rob.

Rob is starting out. My gut reaction to his question was concern about the retail value of 8 frame medium supers should he find himself deciding that beekeeping is not for him, after all the investment.

Reading all of the above comments, maybe I am wrong to think that is true.


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## Michael Bush

I ran deeps for brood and shallows for supers for 26 years or so. I moved to all deeps (big mistake on the lifting part) and then all mediums (much better) and then all eight frame boxes. The bees use all the frames much better in the 8 frame boxes, not just filling them out, but consuming them in winter. The cluster typically spans more than one box with mediums so the cluster can contract and expand better with a gap in the middle of the cluster. In my experience they winter better for those two reasons... not so much food left behind and better ability to expand and contract the cluster.


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## Mike Gillmore

Mr.Beeman said:


> Since there are less frames, does the brood chamber have to be 4 high instead of 3 for ten frame? Based on medium supers.


I think four 8 frame boxes would be a necessity for overwintering in Michigan, if you typically use three 10 frame mediums. With 8 frame equipment you would be 6 frames short if you only used 3 boxes. I'm sure the bees would utilize the stores more efficiently in a narrower set up, but they still might run short in late winter without feeding.


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## Michael Bush

Conversions:

2 ten frame deeps are the typical arrangement in the winter in this climate (Nebraska) and most of the North so here is the equivelants in volume:

2-10 frame deeps = 3-10 frame mediums = 4-8 frame mediums

The rule of thumb for that volume for winter is based on Italaian bees in a large cluster. I would adjust when the size of the cluster varies from that.


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## KevinR

Fusion_power said:


> As noted above, the outside frames are tough to get drawn so with 8 frame equipment, you wind up with 6 actual brood frames.


In my 8 frames, the bees draw out and lay in all 8... It's really only in my 10 frame equipment that I see some bees ignoring those frames.


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## KevinR

sqkcrk said:


> Young man in the Army is or should be worried about a box of honey weighing too much.


I had a 18year old guy that's a mma fighter in very good shape that grunts with a full deep honey super. I'm in good shape and "can" do it... But, given the choice... Why would you do it...

I'd rather lift two 35-50lb boxes than one 70-110lb box... More so if you get into the realm of having lots of hives.. Two hives worked once a month, sure it's not the end of the world. 20-50 hives worked every weekend.. It becomes a bigger deal. More so, when some of your hives are 100+ yards from the truck and you have to carry the equipment across a muddy slope by hand. (grumbles about bad beeyard placement)


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## Greg Lowe

I thought I had read an old viewpoint on this in Dr. C.C. Miller's book 50 Years Among the Bees. I did a quick look and found what he had to say on this matter. Remember this is from a book circa 1915. I find it interesting to see the same discussions repeated over time.

_EIGHT VERSUS TEN FRAMES.
I changed from 10-frame to 8-frame hives, I think, more than for any other reason because at that time it was the fashion. I do not know that I got any better crops by changing. When it comes to moving hives about, the advantage is decidedly in favor of the smaller hive. The same may be said of the supers. I am not sure the smaller hives have any other advantage, unless it be that they occupy less space and cost a little less. But the larger hive has the great advantage that it can have a larger supply of stores on hand at all times, making less danger of starvation in winter and spring. That makes less trouble and less anxiety. An 8-frame hive is sometimes too small for a queen without a second story, where a single story with ten frames would answer. So if it were to do over again, very likely I might continue the 10-frame hive._


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## KevinR

As said above, you need multiple boxes when you run mediums... Same with 8 vs 10...

What size boxes did Dr. Miller run? I believe a lot of beekeepers in that time were running jumbo frames... i.e. 12' inches deep vs standard deep today.


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## Greg Lowe

As I recall he tried multiple set-ups both standard Langstroth dimensioned frames and non-standard. He did not run for extracted honey for the most part, but was set up for producing sections.


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## Michael Bush

As quoted above, Miller ran 8 frame boxes. He converted them all over from 10 frame boxes.


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## rhaldridge

I'm no expert at all, but I have noticed that my 5 over 5 nucs are doing better than my single deep splits. It's made me wonder if there might not be some advantage in a taller narrower hive.


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## Slow Modem

After being down for a month with a strained back starting the end of April (when everything bee related needed to be going full speed), I decided 8-frame is for me. I still have two deeps on the bottom for the hives, but medium supers. I may end up with two (or three) medium boxes on the bottom, and shallow supers. Or I may end up with all shallows before it's over with.

Please watch your back folks, and don't take it for granted. Lift with your legs and take your time. Take care of yourself. The old adage of "prevention is better than cure" is certainly true.


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## Rob46cc

Great discussion Folks! Thanks for the info. I'm sure I could lift a deep super full of honey and I am only planning on doing 2 hives (for now), But if I don't have to and the advantage outweighs the cost.... We'll see. I think I like the idea of all 8 frame meds but like sqkcrk said, I don't even know what I don't know at this point.

For you ten framers: Has anyone experimented with the orientation of the frames? Frames paralell to the entrance vs perpindicular, one box going paralell and the next going perpendicular?


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## sqkcrk

Not me. I believe that there has been some beekeepers who have run frames perpendicular to the short end and entrance. Maybe Michael Bush knows something about that.

But since the boxes are rectangular shaped and not square having one box oriented one way and another oriented 90 degrees to the first would be pretty difficult.

It would create different problems too when bridge comb from one box to another occurs.

Thinking about it a while, Michael Palmer's mininucs wintered above full sized hives have frames oriented 90 degrees to the ones below. I believe.


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## Rob46cc

10 Frame boxes are not square? See I didn't even know I didn't know that.


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## rhaldridge

Mark, my Langstroth entrances are on the side that the frames run parallel to, but they are top entrances, routed into an inner cover. I have no bottom entrances.


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## KevinR

Assuming you buy standard equipment, you don't have much choice in the way the frames run... You can choose which way your entrace faces by turning the whole hive. Other than that... =))


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## TPalmer

Rob46cc said:


> I'm sure I could lift a deep super full of honey and I am only planning on doing 2 hives (for now)


I thought the same thing until last year when I tried to lift my first full deep super. That was an eye opener. Now I work a physical job and in relative good shape for my age (47), but why hurt my back when there is a better way. Now I started with deeps for brood and now mediums for supers but my question is how do I convert my deeps. I have three active hives at this time and would like to slowly convert to all mediums. Just something that popped into my head while reading this thread and I couldn't think of and answer.


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## KevinR

TPalmer said:


> I thought the same thing until last year when I tried to lift my first full deep super. That was an eye opener. Now I work a physical job and in relative good shape for my age (47), but why hurt my back when there is a better way. Now I started with deeps for brood and now mediums for supers but my question is how do I convert my deeps. I have three active hives at this time and would like to slowly convert to all mediums. Just something that popped into my head while reading this thread and I couldn't think of and answer.


Usually, I convert my deeps by having supers on top. The bees move up into the supers during the winter. In the spring. when I would reverse the brood chambers.. I just take them away... Alternately, you can make them into nuc/splits and sell them off. You can put a medium frame into a deep box.. They will just build comb on the bottom of the frame. That can be trimmed off and scrapped, or inserted into a foundatioinless frame with a rubber band....

I suggest that to those who "believe" they can lift/move a full deep... Go to walmart... take 4 of the 25lb weights and stack them up... Now lift those 4 weights chest high and stack them on the shelf with the exercise bikes... Next do the same thing with 50lbs and 40lbs..

Trust me.. I'm in good shape and it is no where close to worth doing... More so in a hobby system. The only time I'd run deeps is with pallets and a forklift..


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## sqkcrk

What is this world coming to? What would your Drill Sargent say Rob46cc? "That's alright if you don't want to carry that SAW and two canisters of ammo, just take the sidearm and a cpl of clips."?


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## KevinR

Pffffffff....

You mount the SAW/Ammo Can on your vehicle... You mount your deeps on a pallet. (LOL)

Besides, the 249 only weighs around 22 lbs plus ammo...


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## sqkcrk

That's funny there KevinR. My Son carried his weight in firearms and ammo in Iraq. When he was in High School he never asked if we could get smaller boxes.


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## KevinR

I agree... There's a big difference between have to and want to... = ) I have quite a few friends that are/were over there... So I'm well aware of all the sacrifices they make... I appreciate your son's service...

I just don't think this is something you "have" to do... 

Like I said, if your a commercial guy with 500 hives, loader, and hired/young help. Rock on.. If your doing it as a hobby in the backyard, there's not a really good reason to run deeps other than it's a "little" cheaper per box and most nucs come as deep frames..


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## Rob46cc

Hahaha....I used to think I had to be the fastest or the strongest, now I'm happy just to keep up with the fast and strong guys every now and then. I'm good just to carry the M9 around the FOB. If the need arises for me to carry the 249 then we have much bigger problems than how I will set up my hives....

Maybe I can start with the 8 frame meds and work my way up to the 10 frame deeps


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## rhaldridge

I'm pretty sure I've seen video of Dee Lusby hefting 10 frame deeps around and she's pushing seventy. But she might be a freak of nature. I mean that in an admiring way. In any case, she refers to smaller hives as "toy hives."

One of the reasons I've fallen in love with my long hives is that the honey is harvested frame by frame, so there's never any heavy lifting. Probably wouldn't work very well on a commercial basis, though I believe both Crowder and Mangum produce a fair amount of honey in top bar hives.

Next spring I'm going to try one of the double-depth long hives described in Fedor Lazutin's book. The frames will be twice as heavy, but again, you only have to lift one at a time.


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## Michael Bush

>Now lift those 4 weights chest high and stack them on the shelf with the exercise bikes... 

AND set them down VERY gently...


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## Joseph Clemens

I've met Dee Lusby, and I have no doubt that she is a very exceptional person. I also know that the only boxes she uses are 10-frame deeps, and lots of them. Dee reminds me of a female version of a "Hoss Cartright", if any are familiar with a vintage TV show, with a character of that name. All that exercise will probably keep her fit, until she is 100 y.o. or more. But those of us with lesser physique, may not acquire the same benefit from such exertion.


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## sqkcrk

And, at her age?


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## Michael Bush

>Dee reminds me of a female version of a "Hoss Cartright"

Dee is fond of playing the "I'm just a sixy some year old beekeepers wife" line when defending all deeps. "If I can do it you can do it". I would never consider taking Dee on in a wrestling match I already know who would win... but I would also point out she has the typical "old beekeeper" posture of someone who has been lifting heavy objects all her life.


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## rhaldridge

As a hobbyist who is almost as old as Dee, my hope is to get to the point where the heaviest thing I have to lift is a five frame nuc. And that's only because I find the idea of selling bees interesting. If I could reach the point of selling a hundred nucs a year, my property in NY could qualify for certain farm-related tax advantages. As Mark will probably attest, it's never wise to ignore potential tax advantages in NY.

Otherwise, I'm going to try to convert to all long hives, so my lifting is confined to a frame or two at a time.


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## snl

Michael Bush said:


> >Dee reminds me of a female version of a "Hoss Cartright"


Who is "Hoss Cartright?" :scratch:


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## KevinR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naLAMc5D3fw


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## sqkcrk

snl said:


> Who is "Hoss Cartright?" :scratch:


 Didn't have a TV when you were young, Larry?


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## Michael Bush

>Who is "Hoss Cartright?" 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoss_Cartwright#Dan_Blocker_.E2.80.93_Eric_.22Hoss.22_Cartwright

"Dan Blocker was six foot four and three hundred twenty pounds when chosen to play the gentle middle son Eric, better known as Hoss."


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## melliferal

I often hear interchangeability as a key selling point in discussions of whether to go all-medium. I understand the argument; I just wonder how much that interchangeability comes into play as a practical matter. Is it common for people to take old frames from the brood chamber and put them in honey supers? I'm not sure I'd be too keen on having the bees fill up some old stained comb with honey I planned to extract.


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## Mike Gillmore

melliferal said:


> Is it common for people to take old frames from the brood chamber and put them in honey supers? I'm not sure I'd be too keen on having the bees fill up some old stained comb with honey I planned to extract.


I don't know how common it is, but I move medium frames with excess drone comb from the brood chambers into supers regularly. I've found no difference in honey extracted from these frames vs strictly "honey" comb frames. That's part of the beauty of using all mediums, for those who choose to go that route.


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## BeeCurious

melliferal said:


> I often hear interchangeability as a key selling point in discussions of whether to go all-medium. I understand the argument; I just wonder how much that interchangeability comes into play as a practical matter.


I have all medium boxes (8-frame) but I have been tempted to start using one deep with two mediums for the brood nests but I never have. Having two sizes of boxes and frames would add complications that I don't have the time or storage space to deal with.


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## melliferal

Mike Gillmore said:


> I don't know how common it is, but I move medium frames with excess drone comb from the brood chambers into supers regularly. I've found no difference in honey extracted from these frames vs strictly "honey" comb frames. That's part of the beauty of using all mediums, for those who choose to go that route.


A little leery of doing that, myself. I know that when brood is raised in a cell, each time an adult emerges the pupal case is left behind and is _not_ removed by the house bees before another egg is lain. It don't know for sure if this creates a possibility of contamination if that old brood comb is then used in a honey super; but it seems like a needless risk to me. With that in mind, a traditional setup makes it easy to keep the two kinds of frames separate - you know all the deeps are brood frames and all the mediums are honey frames.

Of course, it's hard to deny that lifting medium brood boxes is less taxing on a beekeeper's body.


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## Joseph Clemens

Though it is true, that using comb that has first been used for raising brood, for comb honey, rarely happens, if at all. However, it is quite common to use former brood combs for extracted honey.


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## marshmasterpat

Michael Bush said:


> >Now lift those 4 weights chest high and stack them on the shelf with the exercise bikes...
> 
> AND set them down VERY gently...


Gently - ???? Why gently, is that why my ladies are always boiling out mad. Darn the simple tricks. ;-)


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## Mike Gillmore

melliferal said:


> ...don't know for sure if this creates a possibility of contamination if that old brood comb is then used in a honey super; but it seems like a needless risk to me.


If no miticides are used in the hives, there is no risk of contamination.


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## sqkcrk

What's strange is that people who have kept bees for a long time tend to worry more about honey from brood comb being darker than they do about any kind of contamination. 

Workers do clean and polish brood cells, coating the insides of brood cells w/ propolis. Propolis is an antiseptic.


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## Pops

snl said:


> Who is "Hoss Cartright?" :scratch:


LOL From the TV show Bonanza Look it up I always like Hoss could be a compliment


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## melliferal

Mike Gillmore said:


> If no miticides are used in the hives, there is no risk of contamination.


Sure; but if someone _does_ use miticide, (or nosema-icide, or whatever-icide); well, I suppose the risk is there.

But I wasn't thinking specifically of chemical contamination, more along the lines of physical contamination with bits of pupa casing (and certain things that are in pupa casings). Although to be fair, we expect a few bee antennae in our honey and it doesn't bother us, so maybe the concern isn't such of a much after all.


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## Slow Modem

Pops said:


> LOL From the TV show Bonanza Look it up I always like Hoss could be a compliment


There's even a song about him (and the rest).


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## Daniel Y

I did not read the thread. BTU am wondering why you are comparing 10 frame deeps to 8 frame mediums. I woudl think that woudl be an easy choice. The decision between 8 frame deeps and 10 frame mediums not so much. they work out to be pretty much the same size box at the same weight.

I have heard claims that bees have issues with the more frequent breaks in comb of the medium boxes. I have not seen this in my use of them.

I have sen ti claimed that bees more readily fill in the narrower space of the 8 frame box. I woudl not know. I know my ten frame boxes are all filled wall to wall so I must assume bees will do the same for 8 frames.

There is only one argument I have seen for the use of 8 frame equipment of any size that actually holds true in my opinion. That is the issue of how far from your body is the weight. And with 8 frame equipment you keep the weight closer to you body making it less stressful on your back.

When weighing all the considerations of frames per investment in a box, weight wear and tear. increased damages to heavier boxes that are more difficult to handle. etc. I went with 10 frame equipment. deeps for brood boxes and mediums for everything else. I am no considering the addition of a shallow below the deep brood box per information from Walt and it providing pollen storage space without reduce brood space.


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## Michael Bush

>I'm not sure I'd be too keen on having the bees fill up some old stained comb with honey I planned to extract. 

I see no difference in the quality of the honey. Bees are very fastidious and clean and polish all the cells with propolis. The only time the honey looks darker is when it's still in the cells and that's becaue of the cocoons.


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## crofter

Well I have had some rather murky and indelicate tasting honey where the fellow used to decap some ancient frames that had lots of larvae and pollen in them. It just does not sit well with me to see a LOT of bee parts come out of the extractor. Does the pollen get cleaned out of ex brood comb? I sometimes have a few cells laid up in the supers but they are emerged before I extract.


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## KevinR

I run my honey through a 600 micro sieve. I haven't had any off taste.. I've extracted from brood comb, but that is not my normal practice. 

I just use the brood comb to lure the bees into the next box. Sometimes it gets left behind... I don't see any issues, other than your not going to cut it up for comb honey or a crush/strain..

Also, I don't treat my hives... so no concern there...


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## Mike Gillmore

crofter said:


> ... the fellow used to decap some ancient frames that had lots of larvae and pollen in them. It just does not sit well with me to see a LOT of bee parts come out of the extractor.


I don't think anyone here is referring to extracting frames that also contain brood. Just using old "empty" brood comb in the supers to be filled with nectar.


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## crofter

Mike Gillmore said:


> I don't think anyone here is referring to extracting frames that also contain brood. Just using old "empty" brood comb in the supers to be filled with nectar.


Yes, sorry; I still think I see and taste a difference in honey that has come from honey only comb and that which has been used for a while as brood combs. I dont know if all the pollen and bee bread gets cleaned up by the bees. Granted they do clean up and polish the cells with propolis which is close to brown shoe polish.

I wonder sometimes if we rationalize, as having no importance, some things that are convenient for us. Humans do tend to avoid effort in some things and concentrate it on other, pet areas I would like to see a blind test done with different tasters; some that prefer a more robust taste and some that like a lighter more floral taste.


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## Duranthas

I made a thread some time back showing the math of medium vs deep along with 8 vs 10 frame. You can find it here.
I went all 8 frame medium and have absolutely no regret going all mediums, however I somewhat regret going 8 frame because apparently there is no "standard" for 8 frame boxes. If you stick with one single supplier you shouldn't have a problem but for instance a Mann Lake hive body will hang off a bit from say a Brushy Mountain bottom board. I have started making my bottom boards and top covers so it isn't an issue for me now but when I first started it really annoyed me. Also, if you get fancy and want all the cool gadgets (propolis trap, cloake board, etc) you will have trouble finding them. And if you do happen to find them, if they are from a different supplier will they fit?

I wish I could remember who this horridly paraphrased quote is from but here goes
There are two kinds of beekeepers, those with bad backs and those that are going to have bad backs.


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## BeeCurious

I believe that Mann Lake uses 7/8" wood for their boxes. Or at least they once did....


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## Michael Bush

>I believe that Mann Lake uses 7/8" wood for their boxes. Or at least they once did.... 

That would be Betterbee... I'm pretty sure all my Mann Lake boxes are 3/4"...


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## LSHonda310

I would like to go all mediums, but I plan on selling nucs in 2015
Is there any demand for medium nucs, or should I stay with deeps?


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## sqkcrk

Duranthas said:


> I wish I could remember who this horridly paraphrased quote is from but here goes
> There are two kinds of beekeepers, those with bad backs and those that are going to have bad backs.


Aristotle perhaps? I'm sure I heard it from someone else, but I have been saying that for decades. The origin is probably lost to the ethers, but this is the internet.

Been going to a chiropractor recently and he says I have the back of someone ten years older than I am.

I have too much equipment to switch to 8 frame or all mediums. I imagine that 8 frame commercial beekeepers still have the same back as I do.


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## snl

sqkcrk said:


> I have too much equipment to switch to 8 frame or all mediums. /QUOTE]
> 
> So Mark, if you were starting all over again knowing what you know now as a commercial beek (gee, wasn't that another recent thread ) what would you use?


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## sqkcrk

Exercise.


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## snl

Exercise, yes. But 8 or 10? Medium or deep?


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## KevinR

8 vs 10 frames doesn't matter... .imo....

Medium vs deep is much closer to what matters... Even if your Arnold aka Mr Olympian. I believe that repeated lifting of a heavy object is going to have more room for causing damage than the repeated lifting of a lighter object.


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## sqkcrk

Oh, I don't know. I'm a slow learner. I don't learn the things I know very well. If that makes any sense. I'd probably deny that the size of the equipment had anything to do w/ the condition of my back and do what I have done anyway.

Quite often we do what others do or have been doing for some time. For the longest time I had deeps for brood chambers and shallows for honey supers and kept things that way for a long time. 

Then I was given a cpl hundred mediums. Instead of selling them I used them. And seeing how CK has run his for quite a while I thought I would give that a try and run a deep plus a medium on a number of my pallets. I can get more pallets of hives on a semi that way. But I still have half a load of doubles. So it isn't like I completely converted.

Thinking about it now, it might make more sense for someone who has hundreds and thousands of boxes to lean over and lift to have smaller boxes than it does someone w/ two or twenty. Don't you think?

Comparatively, how often does someone w/ 2 or 20 have to pick up their boxes?


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## Mike Gillmore

sqkcrk said:


> Thinking about it now, it might make more sense for someone who has hundreds and thousands of boxes to lean over and lift to have smaller boxes than it does someone w/ two or twenty. Don't you think?


Makes perfect sense. 



sqkcrk said:


> Comparatively, how often does someone w/ 2 or 20 have to pick up their boxes?


One time too many, if they mess up their back.


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## Slow Modem

Duranthas said:


> I wish I could remember who this horridly paraphrased quote is from but here goes
> There are two kinds of beekeepers, those with bad backs and those that are going to have bad backs.


Since I sprained my back this year at the worst possible time (first of May), I am going to do a safety/back protection presentation at our association's short course next spring. One of the things I plan on doing is filling a deep and a medium with rocks or something to simulate the weight of a box full of honey and frames. I think it will be good for people to try to pick it up so they'll know what's in store.


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## Michael Bush

>Is there any demand for medium nucs

Yes. Just make sure you customers understand what it is you are selling. Many a newbie doesn't get the concept yet...


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## sqkcrk

Slow Modem said:


> Since I sprained my back this year at the worst possible time (first of May), I am going to do a safety/back protection presentation at our association's short course next spring. One of the things I plan on doing is filling a deep and a medium with rocks or something to simulate the weight of a box full of honey and frames. I think it will be good for people to try to pick it up so they'll know what's in store.


A. Rock are heavier than honey, so you don't need to fill up the box.
B. Better be sure all participants are wearing steel toed boots or shoes for when the bottom of the box breaks out.
C. How'd you sprain your back? Did you twist your torso instead of shuffling around to fully face where you wanted to set your box?

Improperly handled equipment of almost any weight can cause back problems. Overly heavy items may actually make you pay attention to how you handle them better than commonly handled items like groceries.


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## Slow Modem

sqkcrk said:


> A. Rock are heavier than honey, so you don't need to fill up the box.
> B. Better be sure all participants are wearing steel toed boots or shoes for when the bottom of the box breaks out.
> C. How'd you sprain your back? Did you twist your torso instead of shuffling around to fully face where you wanted to set your box?
> 
> Improperly handled equipment of almost any weight can cause back problems. Overly heavy items may actually make you pay attention to how you handle them better than commonly handled items like groceries.



Actually, I wouldn't have felt so bad if I had hurt my back messing with hives. I sprained it bending over to pick up an empty bird feeder. :doh:
I'm not sure how I'm going to do the boxes yet. It's just an idea I'm mulling over. I hope I can fix it where the bottom doesn't come off!

I am going to talk to the safety man at work for info, training aids and tips. 

I can however, tell them first-hand how it feels to know that your bees need fed/tended and can't get out of bed.


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## Daniel Y

LSHonda310 said:


> I would like to go all mediums, but I plan on selling nucs in 2015
> Is there any demand for medium nucs, or should I stay with deeps?


It seems to me that the popularity of the all medium apiary is on the rise. Last year it seemed a lot of suppliers where starting to move toward offering med nucs. I have though about going all medium but the prevalence of the deep hive has me still using deep brood boxes.


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## Kenww

When I was 28, I'd been working in a factory for 5 years. I was big and young and got the hardest jobs they had. My back and my hip were so messed up I couldn't stand up straight. My quack MD had told me 4 years before that I'd need back surgery in 10 years. I quit and went to college instead. I couldn't afford my chiropractor anymore so looked for options. I started exercising and the found a book, Back Care Basics, by Mary Pullig Schatz. She's an MD and a Yoga instructor. Saved me thousands of dollars in Chiropractor bills. My lower back and hip are better now at 51 than at 23. Still need a chiropractor sometimes. Trying stay fit in general and switching jobs helped. But the book was a big part of it. Now after 17 years sitting at a desk,my necks messed up. Can't find the right exercise for that. Some of the exercises could really hurt you too. Need to pick the right ones and consult a doctor. The book explains pretty well. 16.00 at Amazon.

I probably should have started a new thread. What Mark said about exercise got me going.


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## Kenww

Oh, I compromised and went with ten frame all mediums.


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## KevinR

Kenww said:


> found a book, Back Care Basics, by Mary Pullig Schatz.


Similar book for neck care, by a different Author. Wife got it for me a few years back..

I'd go all mediums.. then pick a size width that works for you. If you have wood working equipment, then you can do anything from 1 - 100 frames.. If your buying your equipment, your more or less limited to 5, 7, 8, and 10 frames... Assuming that Kelley is still making 7 frame hives... With 8/10 being the most common. 10 frame have the most baubles that you can buy... feeders, cloak boards, excluders, customer fiberglass top that will save you from everything... *joke*...

8 Frames being the new hotness.. (new being relative..).. They don't have as many options... but in all honesty... All the bees need is a waterproof cavity that they can fit into... Everything else is for our benefit.


I don't think the weight difference between 8 and 10 being that much... Maybe ~10lbs at most...


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## Daniel Y

I thought the same way about the 8 vs 10 frame. How much difference can that make? Until I had it pointed out it is not a weight issue. it is a leverage or how much stress is being placed on our back thing a 10 frame box not only has 10 to 15 lbs more weight in it bu that weight is further form your center of gravity. At the very least that point has always kept 8 frame boxes on the list of possibilities for me.


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## snl

Got too many 10 framers to go back. I run a deep & medium with medium supers. Sticking a two frame feeder in the 10 frame deep has helped (and how often do you lift a full 10 frame deep?) and on the mediums, I convert them all over to either 8 or 9 framers once comb is drawn.

Helped a lot....


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## Michael Bush

>8 Frames being the new hotness.. (new being relative..).. 

8 frame Langstroth hives have been in constant use for about the last 150 years...


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## RenegadeDrone

Bees In Miami said:


> Rob46: It's all about weight! I would encourage you to choose ONE frame/box depth. ALL mediums, ALL deeps, or whatever you choose. Eight vs ten frames is easily adjusted. I can tell you, a medium full of honey is about 40+ pounds, and when it is full of bees, 40+ pounds weighs a LOT!!! I would NOT want to lift a deep!! In fact, I couldn't!
> 
> My choice, now (after starting with deeps for brood and medium supers).... I am going to all mediums. Whether 8 frames vs 10, doesn't really matter as much as the consistent choice of depth. I can mix/match/swap/interchange with no problem, as long as all my depths are consistent. I hope this made sense... :scratch:
> 
> Bottom line...it's all about how hard you want to work, and how good your back is! My advice, keep them all the same depth. All mediums for me, from now on, though I have mostly deeps still for brood. If I started all over, they would ALL be 10 frame mediums.


I have 8 frame mediums as recommended by Michael Bush...but would go with 10 frame mediums if I had to do it over again


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