# Fixing Foundationless, need help



## JAK (May 29, 2007)

Hi Folks,

I've got two packages on foundationless frames (popsicle sticks), ten full frames with no foundation for guides (ran out of money). I figure that I'd jump in and give it a try. I opened up the hives yesterday, saw beeswax (Yeah!) on one frame. It's off center, not hanging on the popsicle stick, but hanging on the top bar corner. I saw in a previous post:

"Also keep an eye on their combs right off. If they mess up one in a box, they will repeat the error (because combs are parallel), so you need to straighten it and tie it if necessary to get them back on track."--Michael Bolton

|__ __|
aaaII xxx 
aaaaxxxxx
aaaaxxxxx
aaaaxxxx
aaaaxxx

This is what both combs look like, hanging off to the right of the popsicle stick, on the end of the top bar. How should I correct it? Should I break it off and rubber band it to the popsicle stick? How will it stay on the stick? There's only one primary comb in the hive with pollen, eggs, and sugar syrup stored in it, should I wait until it's capped? Or just get in there and try to fasten it correctly. 

Thanks for the help, and happy keeping.

Cheers,

JAK


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*Congratulations*

Fantastic, another newbie faithfully listening to the advice given on this site to ignore the modern advances in beekeeping made over the last 150 years. Less competition in the honey market for me..... HURRAY!!!!


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Your best bet is to buy some foundation quick. If you don't have 10 dollars to invest in your bees, you should get rid of the bees. You are going to have a mess in that hive that will take eons to straighten out.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

It's not that bad really. Take that little bit of wax and use it to rub on the popcicle sticks. That will give them a better idea where to start. It really does help if you have one drawn comb or foundation in the middle, but it's not required. If you get a larger comb that's off center, simply cut it loose and rubber band it back in (the rubber bands go all the way around the frame and simply holds the comb in the middle). This really does work. I've been doing it for several years now, as has Michael Bush. They won't draw out wax foundation one bit quicker than they will the empty frames.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

I use my own custom made foundationless frames. I cut the top bar at 45 degree angles along both bottom edges so it forms a V in the center of the bar (I don't cut so much that it forms a sharp point, I leave about a 1/8" wide strip of "flatness" down the center). With this configuration the bees never have much trouble centering the comb as they naturally slide down the slope to the center of the V when they festoon on the bar. It seems to be a much better comb guide than popsicle sticks or starter strips. If you are committed to going foundationless but don't want to go to the trouble of making your own frames, you can cut V shaped strips that can be nailed to the bottom of the top bar to provide the same type comb guide.


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## JAK (May 29, 2007)

*RE: Thanks for the quick replies...*

I posted a question for some help on techniques to get the comb centered. I received good advice (thank you) that I will pursue this weekend, when I have time to tinker. A friend at the bee club has some foundation sheets I can buy off him.

I also got a sarcastic reply about ignoring 150 years of beekeeping advancement, and one about not having $10 to spend on the bees so it'd be better to not raise bees. I don't know if it was meant to get my hackles up, but it sure did. I wanted to try bee-keeping this way, it's an experiment to see how challenging it is for a new person to get started this way, and I don't really appreciate the sarcasm/antagonism. 

Maybe the replies weren't trying to be delivered that way, but it seemed a bit harsh. My experience base is zero, and I'm looking for a way to increase it. Thanks for advice, we'll see how it works.

JAK


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## Bodo (Mar 11, 2008)

Don't let them get to you. Some people don't handle new or different things very well. 

Keep us updated as to how your experiment goes!


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

JAK,

Don't be too offended, just as with any group of folks, we beeks have our "bad apples". Just ignore the trolls and trudge ahead. There are a lot more sincere and helpful folks on this board than there are dinks, so keep the questions coming and don't let them discourage you.


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## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

JAK - you have to take what you want out of these forums. I use foundationless frames in all but my HoneySuperCell hives and I like them. I find the bees draw them faster, despite the fact that foundation offers a 4mm cell depth advantage over starter strips. Cut it out, band it in, once they get going straight they keep going fine. If you have one drawn comb it really heps get them started right, and rubbing the popsicle sticks with wax helps too.


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## knadai (Jun 24, 2007)

I guess it all just depends. I use foundationless with wedge top frames with the wedge stapled on sideways so it is vertical and acts as what some use popsicle sticks for. I've yet to have the bees not draw each one as I would like. (I hesitate to say correctly, I generally assume everything they do is correct regardless of what my desire was)

However, I introduced these foundationless frames in between foundation frames, most of which were drawn already. The frames are oriented North-South, with magnetic and geographic North being almost the same at this longitude.


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

I think the sarcasm was directed at anyone that might help a newbee with an alternative technique (foundationless frames) rather than encourage using industry standard methods (foundation). You were caught in the crossfire. Don't let it bother you. You are having a problem that you would be less likely to have if you used foundation. So what. If you pay attention you can deal with it.

I'd plane the the crisp right-angles off the bottom edges of the top bars. They are attractive places for the bees to start combs. If the current comb is warm and soft, I'd be inclined to just smoosh it over to where it belongs if you can do it. That would encourage adjacent combs to be started where they belong.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

odfrank said:


> Fantastic, another newbie faithfully listening to the advice given on this site to ignore the modern advances in beekeeping made over the last 150 years. Less competition in the honey market for me..... HURRAY!!!!


AND THIS IS HELPFUL --- HOW ????

Since it was stated that these are new packages, I would be hesitant to "fix" it at this point in time. The package(s) have a finite length of time to establish and thrive. Anything that is done in the first 6 weeks to retard their development lessens the chance that the hive will survive. 

I am probably going against the majority, but I would leave the darn thing alone in the first deep and "fix" it in the second deep. Eventually switching out the messed up comb after the 2nd deep is full. I have had some very messed up combs. But the bees don't care. They do fine with whatever they draw out. It will certainly make inspections a problem but you just have to start by removing the outermost frames and slide the rest over one at a time. You also have to make sure you put them back in order. 

But then, what do I know -- Fuzzy


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

That is certainly an option. After several combs are drawn, off-center or not, they can be cut loose and rubber-banded back with little disruption to the bees. The thing to really watch for is crossing over to another bar. In that case, cut it loose from the 2nd bar and bend it back in line with the first. Add a rubber band as needed. It's not magic, just a little attention. The first time you open a hive that was placed on new foundation and find it's completely cross-combed, you'll know that foundation is not a cure all.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

consider putting a 1/4'' or so spacer between the wonky comb and the next frame. this could help the bees reposition the next comb. the bees will be ok and using foundation can have it's glitches too.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

This happens sometimes with foundation as well. I was just given a hive that has several combs drawn in between the plastic based foundation in the frames. Some of them are attached to both neighboring top bars. Some are mostly attached to just one of them. I just need to manage the situation.

Many of the problems that bees face in today's world are because of 150 years of "advancements". This is not a problem that you cannot manage yourself out of. Don't let another's negative opinion get you down. I'm cut from the cloth that will drive me to prove it can be done when someone makes fun of me like that. To quote an old lady friend of mine, "Man up." You can do it and there are plenty of people who have done it here to help you.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

If you've already done this, then just ignore.

When starting out with all empty frames like you are doing it's critical that the hive is level. Take a level out to the bee yard and make certain that the box is perfectly level.... left to right.... as you're facing the entrance. Even a very slight lean to one side can cause them to build the comb way off center of the frames when there are no drawn combs on each side as guides. 

I've done exactly what you are doing in the past with a couple of swarms, and with a bit of patience and comb manipulation, it will work. Once you get a few combs going straight the rest seem to fall right into place.


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## IslandMountainFarm (Feb 13, 2007)

*Funny thing about letting bees do it themselves*

They seem to be able to deal with parasites much more effectively without the need for medication.

Ignore the troll, take a good level out to the yard, make sure the boxes are level from side to side, and let the bees do what bees do naturally, create their own comb with cell sizes that work best for them.

Congratulations on choosing to be part of the solution.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>This happens sometimes with foundation as well. 

Exactly.

I'd straighten them if they are off more than a little. Just push it back into the center or, if it's too tough, cut it loose at the top and push it back in the center.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#messup
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#whatif
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#beginner
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#messedupcomb


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I want to complement JAK on merely noticing the problem.

Most "new beekeepers" wouldn't notice or wouldn't explain 
the problem so well.

Cross-comb and other screw ups can happen, and the only way to 
eliminate them is to take the labor-intensive approach of inserting 
new combs between drawn combs.

As for the "150 Years" comment, I can see both sides of the problem. 
One side is the mentor/instructor dilemma, where neophytes don't 
bother to even try basic and prudent approaches before trying much
more complicated approaches, and/or want to argue over basic points 
in classes and workshops. When things go awry, they expect to be
bailed out of the mess they made, no matter how much time, effort,
and $3.50 a gallon gas it takes from the mentor/instructor.

The other side is the typical new beekeeper, who certainly is underestimating the complexity of the first year, yet feels entitled 
to do whatever he/she wants with the bees, and honestly feels 
smarter than all those who have come before. (Its true - nearly all
beekeepers think that they are significantly smarter than all other
beekeepers. I've been studying this issue for years. Physicists never
exhibit such worldview misconceptions, despite a nearly 100% rate 
of advanced degrees and other credentials.)

I guess my stance is that the central issue is one of "husbandry" of
the very very old-skool style, the 18th Century old-skool. One
has an obligation to one's livestock. This includes giving them every
advantage possible, using "best practices" to assure that they thrive
rather than merely survive. 

Of course, there are divergent views on what are "best practices",
and I suspect that Odfrank and I would be more in agreement than
in disagreement, except that I understand the compulsion to experiment
and tinker with this and that.

So, grab that unwarranted sense of confidence firmly, and forge ahead! 

My vote is to cut the comb away from the top bar and use rubber bands
to hold it in proper position within the frame. The bees will reattach it.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*Sarcasm, hell!!!*

I meant every word of it straight up. You will also promote my sales by using plastic foundation, small cell etc. as highly recommended on this site.


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

*jim fisher*

for the first time ever i am tempted to quote an entire reply, but barry might ban me. seriously, jim's reply is exactly why i don't answere very many as he has not only completely read my mind he has stated what are my opinions much clearer and concisely than i could. plus he has described ME in part of it . thanks,jim


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Fuzzy said:


> I am probably going against the majority, but I would leave the darn thing alone in the first deep and "fix" it in the second deep.


That would be my suggestion also. I wouldn't risk damaging the first few combs by trying to reposition them. The risk is too great. That is, unless you have other hives you can pull resources from should you damage the comb in the process.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I dropped a swarm on a box of empty frames last week. I just checked them. They have 4 lovely newly drawn frames right down the center. I don't bother to level my hives other than by eyeball.

"Everything works if you let it" by someone smart on this site


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## IslandMountainFarm (Feb 13, 2007)

odfrank said:


> Fantastic, another newbie faithfully listening to the advice given on this site to ignore the modern advances in beekeeping made over the last 150 years. Less competition in the honey market for me..... HURRAY!!!!


Just out of curiosity Frank, would those be the modern advances that are causing losses of 80% or more all over the industrialized world? Just asking.

PS Barry, I quoted Frank because folks would have to go back 3 pages to find what I was referring to.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*Dumb or dumber???*

Are you saying that foundationless hives are NOT dying? Are you blaming the bee die-off on foundation and the Langstroth hive? Should we all go back to skeps and topbar hives? If you can prove to me that will keep my bees from dieing I will convert back as fast as I can. I lost over 50% this year using those **** modern techniques.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

odfrank said:


> I lost over 50% this year using those **** modern techniques.


Which "modern techniques"?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Which "modern techniques"?


Using foundation - you have to follow the thread from the beginning.


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## WJensen (Apr 11, 2008)

*Jim Fischer reply*



Jim Fischer said:


> "I guess my stance is that the central issue is one of "husbandry" of
> the very very old-skool style, the 18th Century old-skool. One
> has an obligation to one's livestock. This includes giving them every
> advantage possible, using "best practices" to assure that they thrive
> rather than merely survive. "


I have to say that I agree. The Langstroth system, with foundation etc. worked very well from its introduction and popularization until roughly 20 years ago. What changed? Well, trade with all sorts of places that were eager for the dollar, but not so much for our regulations. To blame everything on the "modern" beekeeping methods is wrongheaded. In finding our way out of these "problems" the only approach that will work in the long run is to conservatively experiment by changing only one thing at a time, rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Most of the small cell, or natural cell or whatever that I have seen is based largely on anecdotal evidence, and not on well documented experimentation with controls for the other variables. On the other hand, nothing breeds success like success!

Wade


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

No, I wasn't trying to be a troll or even be mean. 

If my son wanted to be a race car driver, I would first teach him to drive on the road and in normal traffic. I would not start him in a full blown race the first time he ever took the wheel.

Jak, according to his past posts, just got his first bees. I think he should be using the simpler, tried and true methods before trying the more complicated methods.

This part of his post also prompted part of my reply. >>>(ran out of money).<<<

I sincerely feel he will lose his bees this year and possibly lose the will to keep bees because of it. I don't want to lose a new beek or the bees because of such a small expense.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Foundation, or lack of it, never killed a bee in my opinion. Likewise, starting bees on foundation is no guarantee, or even a benefit, to getting them to draw straight. We get far more rookies wanting to know why their bees are making a mess of plastic than anything else.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

odfrank said:


> Using foundation - you have to follow the thread from the beginning.


I have been... and I guess I'm just dense.  I don't get it. 

You've had over 50% losses using foundation. Personally, that would be justification for me to consider trying something different and attempt to reduce that number. I'm sure there are many other factors besides comb type that are contributing to your losses, but I would be looking for every edge possible. Dead-outs don't make any honey.

You want proof.... have you set aside one of your yards and tried foundationless for a couple of years and compared loss percentages to your other yards?


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Simple question, Ross. Have you ever seen a hive die from rookie mistakes? Have you ever seen a hive die from too much disruption? Have you ever said "I wish I had known that before I acted"? Beekeeping or otherwise, have you ever seen anyone start an endeavor at too advanced a stage, then fail and quit because they weren't familiar with the basics? If he had 5 or 10 years experience keeping bees, I would not have discouraged him at all.

Mike, I haven't had over 50% losses. I have had few losses since 2003. I use only wired wax foundation, but that's not my argument here. I say one should become familiar with the tried and true methods before going into the new and experimental, not only with bees, but with all things in life.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

iddee said:


> I say one should become familiar with the tried and true methods before going into the new and experimental, not only with bees, but with all things in life.


I agree with you on this point Iddee. That is certainly the "safest" approach in any new endeavor one takes on. Cutting corners and moving too fast without some experience under your belt usually brings about frustration and sometimes failure. Not always, but more often than not.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I say one should become familiar with the tried and true methods before going into the new and experimental, not only with bees

If the technique is 155 years old, it's not very new and not very experimental:

"HOW TO SECURE STRAIGHT COMBS. "The full advantages of the movable comb principle is only secured by getting all the combs built true within the frames. Upon the first introduction of movable frames, bee-keepers frequently failed in this although much care and attention were given. Mr. Langstroth, for a time, used for guides strips of comb attached to the under side of the top bar of the frame. This is a very good practice when the comb can be had, as it usually secures the object besides giving the bees a start with worker comb. Next followed the triangular comb guide consisting of a triangular piece of wood tacked to the under side of the top bar, leaving a sharp corner projecting downwards. This is a valuable aid and is now universally adopted." --FACTS IN BEE KEEPING by N.H. and H.A. King 1864, pg. 97

"If some of the full frames are moved, and empty ones placed between them, as soon as the bees begin to build powerfully, there need be no guide combs on the empty frames, and still the work will be executed with the most beautiful regularity." --The Hive and the Honeybee by Rev. L.L. Langstroth 1853, pg. 227


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

>>>>If the technique is 155 years old, it's not very new and not very experimental:<<<<

>>>Upon the first introduction of movable frames, bee-keepers frequently failed in this although much care and attention were given.<<<

Thank You, Michael, that's exactly what I have been trying to say.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Gee, It didn't seem that hard to me when I started doing it my second year. Just read Michael's pages and followed along. It isn't rocket science. Bees seem to do quite well in hollow trees and house eaves without foundation. Most of their combs are dead straight too. 

Lighten up people. There is typically more than one way to skin any cat, and most of them will work. It always surprises me when the old hats on this site speak with total authority inspite of several others that are doing it different and succeeding. I wonder how foundation got invented. Gee, maybe someone tried something different and liked it. I made it through the winter with no losses. How about all of you?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>>Upon the first introduction of movable frames, bee-keepers frequently failed in this although much care and attention were given.<<<

>Thank You, Michael, that's exactly what I have been trying to say.

And the solution was arrived at 155 or more years ago...


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

iddee said:


> Have you ever seen a hive die from too much disruption? Have you ever said "I wish I had known that before I acted"?


No.
Yes, but when given time, the bees usually fix/adjust to our actions.

The first year I started beekeeping, I was in the hives all the time. Talk about disruption. The bees did fine and I learned so much. I always encourage beginners to not be afraid to stick your nose into the hive a lot and learn, observe.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Barry said:


> Talk about disruption. .


When a keepers blows smoke at the entrance of a hive to work, it take twenty four hour before that hive gets back to normal.
FYI


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Depends on the fuel.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

smoke... not hot air.


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## Hanover Honey (Mar 26, 2008)

BRAVO! Nice reply JAK, you'll be just fine. Everybody does thing different for differnt reasons, stick to your guns. If you want to put bees in a 5 gallon bucket, I'm right there with ya.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My experience with new beekeepers following standard practices typically goes something like this.

An older lady who wants a hive in her garden buys a standard beginners kit. It comes with two deeps with wood frames and plastic foundation. There are no instructions and the bee book she read says nothing about how to space the combs so she spaces them evenly because it seems to make sense. The bees promptly build beautiful combs between the plastic foundations attached to a top bar on each side. After much soul searching and advice from other beekeepers she decides to cut those out and tie them into frames. Not an easy undertaking and she has to order the frames, by which time they have built even more wild comb between the frames. Eventually she gets it all straightened out. and the bees prosper and fill the bottom box with brood and the top box with honey. She thinks she need to check on the queen as the hive seems to be dwindling a bit and finds she cannot lift the top box no matter what she does. She doesn't have a spare box to put the frames in, and would find it pretty intimidating to remove them a frame at a time anyway because of all the flying bees, since she's not that confident. She gets frustrated and sells the whole thing to another beekeeper and quits beekeeping. Or, if she's a bit more determined, she buys some eight frame mediums, because she has no idea how to cut down the deeps, maybe some wax foundations, to try to avoid the messed up comb she got with the "standard practice" of selling beginners plastic so they won't have to learn to wire. Some of the comb is still messed up (she still hasn't learned to put the frames tightly together) and things go better if nothing else because she can now lift a box. As she discovers that the Varroa are getting out of hand she researches further and finds that what she really wishes she'd done is start with small cell foundation or foundationless. So now she spends a couple of years of worrying as she gradually swaps out the comb for what she really wanted, small cell or natural cell.

How has she been helped by following standard practices?

It is far easier to start by doing what you really want to do, than to change over later.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

<I meant every word of it straight up. You will also promote my sales by using plastic foundation, small cell etc. as highly recommended on this site.>

I'm confused, Oliver. I think I remember a post about a year ago where you complained that you were having high losses even on your small cell hives. Am I wrong? Or, have you tried small cell and decided it wasn't for you.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

These long threads are hard to follow.
The "modern" (as apposed to skeps) technique that I believe in is the use of foundation. The OP complained about poor foundationless combs.
I have been trying small cell for five years but have found no advantages. Like plastic foundation, it is hard to get good combs, and the winter losses are comparable OR worse than LC.


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## JAK (May 29, 2007)

*Foundationless Update*

Thanks for all the information that you guys have been providing. 
-I checked the level of both hives, and the bubble's in the middle from side to side and front/back. 

After looking at both of the hives on Saturday, I have some interesting observations. A second frame is being drawn in both hives, centered on the popsicle stick, where the first frame was hanging from the top bar, bunched to one side. 

Both hives are being fed 1:1 sugar solution over the inverted inner cover hole, and both hives built on the first frame below the hole in the inner cover, with the comb bulging toward the inner cover hole. It seems to make sense now, the bees drew the comb closer to the food source (1:1 sugar syrup), rather than drawing off the popsicle stick. The drawn wax is white and very pliable, and I'm going to manuever it toward the center of the frame this week (1/2") when the temps get in the mid-70s. I think that I now understand why I got a "skewed" first frame.

Thanks again for all the information and advice, it's been very helpful. The beekeeping club that I attend really pushes wood frames with crimp-wired foundation. After attending a short-course where we got to install crimp-wire foundation, I found this site since mid-2007 and thought that the foundationless frames looked like a good alternative technique. I also wanted to try something different that required less front end assembly work. Appreciate your help.

JAK


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

Ross said:


> I made it through the winter with no losses. How about all of you?


I made it with no losses as well, moving away from foundation. I use starter strips of 49mm foundation and let the bees draw what they want. It seems to work better this way. No bald spots on duragilt foundation, no bare plastic foundation, new comb that doesn't have any bad stuff in it. No drugs!!! With strong hives I have no wax moths. Had a few mice but the bees dealt with them. I really should start using mouse guards.


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