# What is local raw honey?



## Jim Giles

Distance in miles from the bee-yard where the honey was collected? Temperature and degree of straining, etc., etc., etc.?

I notice where the honey board alleges that there is no significant health benefit of 'raw honey' over processed honey:

_Raw or Processed?
Is raw honey more nutritious than processed or filtered honey?

While there is no official definition of “raw” honey, it generally means honey that has not been heated or filtered. According to the FDA, “nutritious” can be used in reference to the diet as a whole, not an individual food. Nevertheless, we often see or hear claims that raw honey is “more nutritious” or “better for you,” primarily because raw honey may contain small amounts of pollen grains that are often removed during processing or filtering. 

Honey is produced by honey bees from the nectar of plants, not pollen. Pollen occurs only incidentally in honey. The amount of pollen in honey is miniscule and not enough to impact the nutrient value of honey. According to Dr. Lutz Elflein, a honey analysis expert with an international food laboratory, the amount of pollen in honey ranges from about 0.1 to 0.4%. Similarly, a 2004 study by the Australian government found the percentage of dry weight canola pollen in 32 Australian canola honey samples ranged from 0.15% to 0.443%. 

A 2012 study by the National Honey Board analyzed vitamins, minerals and antioxidant levels in raw and processed honey. The study showed that processing significantly reduced the pollen content of the honey, but did not affect the nutrient content or antioxidant activity, leading *the researchers to conclude that the micronutrient profile of honey is not associated with its pollen content and is not affected by commercial processing*.
_
http://www.honey.com/faq

Specifically, I would like to know what dictates whether honey is "local" or not. I assume that honey from China for example would not be 'local' honey but the national honey board's experts might view it differently. That is if one lives in the U.S. How close must the consumer live to the bee-yard where the honey was collected for it be genuinely local honey? And again it appears experts allege distance does not matter, nor filtration.

:s


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## Michael Bush

There are no official definitions. I think the real issue is what a typical customer thinks it means and what they want to get. The "local" part is usually because they are using it for allergies and that would mean that it has the kind of pollens that they get exposed to. Those might change in 20 miles or might not be much different for 200 miles. Raw is usually an issue of enzymes as well as flavor. Heated honey does not taste as good. Enzymes break down in heat. Honey has a lot of enzymes that may be beneficial in one way or another. I want honey that has never been any hotter that it would have gotten when it was in the hive. In the end, there is no standard so it's a matter of simple honesty and trying to figure what the customer is expecting. You can always list specifics rather than generalities (or both). You could, for example, say it's raw and then have a specific temperature listed as the maximum it has been. Or specify the area (maybe by county) where the honey came from when you say local...


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## grozzie2

Experts can say all they want, and, often they are correct. But, never forget the quote from Werner Von Braun. 'A single engineering test result, is worth a thousand expert opinions.'

The true benefit of 'local' honey, is that it contains pollens from the local flora where it was made. My wife used to have issues in the spring with allergies, but now that we eat honey from our own hives in the back yard, she's noticed a big difference, far less bothered in the spring when things start pollinating. Her theory is, she is exposed to small amounts of the pollens from our local plants all year long, it comes in the honey we eat. So when the plants start going strong, her body is now 'in tune' with the pollens, it's been exposed all winter to a low level dose, and she has little / no issue with it during the spring / summer.

How much truth is there to that, I dunno, but, it's working here, so, good enough for me. Local is not about the nutrients, but about the pollens. We all stick the same nutrient content labels on the honey, doesn't really matter where you are, it's always the same. What is different, is the pollens in that honey.


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## rniles

From my understanding 
RAW meant both unfiltered and unheated.
LOCAL meant from the local area. The city, or county, or nearby vicinity.

I suggest benefits from either - but the customer likes those concepts, Local and Raw. Just as they like to buy the vegetables, meat, and dairy locally.


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## My-smokepole

I start with what Utah law. ( someone here posted part of there law. Even though I don't live there. Low heat and course filtering. I warm my bottling tank water to 115 but bottle around 90* I use a paint five gallon strainer. Witch catch bug parts but lets every thing else pass through. 
David


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## justin

i set my extracting system and bottling room to 95f. i have been told 105f is the max heat to be considered raw, but don't know where that info came from. we don't filter, but give everything time to float and bottle from the bottom. about half our honey sells 18 miles away (nearest town) and the most of the rest sells 45 miles away. it's in the same river valley and we consider that local. same flora. justin


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## Rusty Hills Farm

My label says Rusty's Gold is "pure Alabama honey raw and unprocessed" and what this means is that the only filtering I do is to get the wings/legs/etc out and I generally bottle when the temperatures are at or near 100 degrees (which around here happens every June and August). Everything comes from my own stationary hives here on the farm, which means it is all wildflower honey. Don't know how to get it any more natural than that or I'd do it.

JMO

Rusty


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## Jim Giles

Thank you for your replies. They are very helpful. Is the following accurate:

"during the brood raising season, temperature in the hive has to be kept at 94° regardless of the outside temperature."

http://westmtnapiary.com/inside_the_hive.html

"Raw is usually an issue of enzymes as well as flavor. Heated honey does not taste as good. Enzymes break down in heat. Honey has a lot of enzymes that may be beneficial in one way or another. I want honey that has never been any hotter that it would have gotten when it was in the hive."

I hope the first quote above is accurate because my bottler is currently set at 95 degrees (And I'll adjust it down one degree too.) The quote directly above allows me an excellent way to describe raw honey. And the use of enzyme prompted me to do a Google search where I discovered "medical-grade honey:"

http://www.fasebj.org/content/24/7/2576.long

Amazing stuff. I'm not a scientist but a leader once said, "Trust your instincts." My instincts tell me local raw honey is better than foreign processed honey.

Thank you.


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## AstroBee

Jim,

I think you're mixing things slightly. Yes, the bees very closely manage the temperature in the broodnest, but not nearly so in the honey supers. They focus on ventilation throughout the hive, but I suspect (depending on what region you live) that honey supers can far exceed 95. In Virgina the temps routinely hit high 90's in the shade, which would put the temps inside the box that is sitting in the sun far above that. Wax melts around 140+, so we know its stays below that, however, I would not be surprised to see 115 or more in the supers during the summer heat.


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## gmcharlie

right on Astro....


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## Jim Giles

AstroBee said:


> Jim,
> 
> I think you're mixing things slightly. Yes, the bees very closely manage the temperature in the broodnest, but not nearly so in the honey supers. They focus on ventilation throughout the hive, but I suspect (depending on what region you live) that honey supers can far exceed 95. In Virgina the temps routinely hit high 90's in the shade, which would put the temps inside the box that is sitting in the sun far above that. Wax melts around 140+, so we know its stays below that, however, I would not be surprised to see 115 or more in the supers during the summer heat.


A valid distinction. So many variables. My queens sometimes end up in my honey supers brooding them up especially in the spring. Nonetheless fascinating. The truth of the matter is always elusive and depends on so many variables. One wonders in keeping brood honey at 94 degrees how much hotter it can get above and of course that would depend on how many supers you run.

I don't know why anyone would want to keep their bottler temperature above 94 degrees? And I live in Mississippi where we are ironically experiencing some record cold temps just now. But come July and August it's hotter than any place on the planet when you add in our humidity. 

I was mainly thinking from a marketing perspective how natural it sounds and reassuring to the consumer to convey that your honey is not heated above what the bees would heat it to in the hive, i.e., 94 degrees. And while it might get much hotter in the supers, the best honey is 'brood honey.'


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## gmcharlie

Jim, most honeys will not re liquefy at 95. Raw honey contains more particles than ultra filtered and processed. so it granulates much faster. (usually less than a year) some of course are worse than others. 95 just won't gut it to reliquefy them. ours is set at 105. but its only on when we are actually bottling.


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## Michael Bush

>Wax melts around 140+, so we know its stays below that...

I remember a summer back in the 1980s in Western Nebraska when it hit 114 F and the honey was running out the door... I'd guess it was a lot more than 114 F in the hive (it was in the sun). Probably crowding 140...


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## sqkcrk

Jim Giles said:


> Specifically, I would like to know what dictates whether honey is "local" or not. I assume that honey from China for example would not be 'local' honey but the national honey board's experts might view it differently. That is if one lives in the U.S. How close must the consumer live to the bee-yard where the honey was collected for it be genuinely local honey? And again it appears experts allege distance does not matter, nor filtration.
> 
> :s


Seriously? I don't know what the word canard really means but it comes to mind. If you don't know what "local" means look it up in the Dictionary. Pretty much the same w/ the word "raw". But, pretty much, as it pertains to raw honey, it's honey that hasn't been strained and hasn't been heated high enough to effect the honey's natural properties. 

For some people if the hive that the honey comes from isn't in their back yard it isn't close enough to be "local".

For some people comb honey is the only truly raw honey.


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## 1-800miner

U.S.D.A. States that produce grown within 400 miles of selling point is local.
I imagine they would lump honey into the produce group.


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## ldaxon

1-800miner said:


> U.S.D.A. States that produce grown within 400 miles of selling point is local.
> I imagine they would lump honey into the produce group.


I have always functioned under the impression that it was best to eat honey that was produced within a 50 mile radius of where you live, but I have no idea where I got that idea years ago.

That being said, I live on a small, well-known lake in the city limits of Oklahoma City so I just call my honey, "Ski Island Honey." That leaves it up to the buyer to decide if it is local to them or not, but at least they know exactly where it was collected from. If I didn't live in such a well-known place I would probably call my honey, OKC Honey.


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## Nabber86

1-800miner said:


> U.S.D.A. States that produce grown within 400 miles of selling point is local.


Reference?


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## sqkcrk

ldaxon said:


> I have always functioned under the impression that it was best to eat honey that was produced within a 50 mile radius of where you live, but I have no idea where I got that idea years ago.


People believe all sorts of things w/ no basis in facts. Maybe that's why it's called a belief and not a known fact.


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## Edymnion

Its also important to look for if the honey was produced locally, or bottled/processed locally. There is a difference. Especially with last year when everybody was having so much trouble, more than one "local" honey dealer started buying bulk honey and rebottling it.


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## Mike Gillmore

Most of my customers look for raw "local" honey based on pollen sources. Their main objective is allergy relief, so the honey must contain pollen which they will be exposed to locally. Floral sources in NE Ohio will be the same as Western PA, West Virginia, Indiana, etc. As long as it contains pollen from the same plants they are exposed to here in Ohio is meets their needs.

Someone selling raw honey from Florida, Argentina, Texas have pollen in the honey from different plants that my local customers will not be exposed to. It would do them no good for their allergy relief. 

The "local" definition could be interpreted many different ways, but I think that most "customers" view it as honey which contains pollen from plants that grow in their region in general which they will be exposed to.


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## Rader Sidetrack

>> U.S.D.A. States that produce grown within 400 miles of selling point is local.

> Reference?

See page iii
http://www.ers.usda.gov/ersDownloadHandler.ashx?file=/media/122868/err97_1_.pdf.

But, other USDA files do not necessarily follow the lead dog ...  :lpf:




> There is no consensus on a definition of “local” or “local food systems” in terms of the geographic distance between production and consumption.
> 
> http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/err-economic-research-report/err97.aspx#.UsxGM9JDv2A




This document talks about a 100 mile radius in one example:
http://www.usda.gov/documents/1-Whatandwhy.pdf
(bottom left, page 8)


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## sqkcrk

"LOCAL" What does it mean? To whom does it matter? If a honey seller thinks that labeling their honey local will make a difference to their customers then their customers will decide if it is local enough for them. If your local honey is the only honey available 150 miles away from where you and your hives reside, that may be alright w/ enough people to make it worthwhile adding to your label. I don't have it on my label. I let people figure it out on their own by my address. Which is on the label.

The one time in the last 20 years that I went to a craft fair to sell honey I had a person ask me if my honey was local. Well, my hives are in St. Lawrence County and we are in St Lawrence County, is that close enough to be local? No, it turns out. My yard closest to where she lives is 15 miles away from where she lives and having 500 or so colonies who knows which apiary the honey in the jar came from.

Why do you ask, I asked her. Because I heard that local honey was good for allergies. What allergies do you have? Oh, I don't have any allergies. But I want local honey so I don't get any. Oh, okay. Can't help you then, unless you just want something to sweeten your tea.


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## gmcharlie

400 miles is a LOT... actualy bordering on insane... roughly speaking thats a 8 hour drive in any direction. that means Atlanta GA to Kansas City is still local for me....
I am thinking 50 miles max...


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## KQ6AR

As far as local we tell our customers where it came from, most of our customers do care about local.
All the reading I've done on raw honey says not to warm it over 115F & only strain through strainers like the ones sold from the bee supply companies.
We do sell ours as local & raw We also warm it too 115F to de-crystallize


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## chr157y

I don't have an opinion on what is local, but my brother in law cured his seasonal allergies with honey from 55 miles away.


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## sqkcrk

What was he allergic to and what season was it? What was the honey he ate? Dosage and frequency. How long did it take for the relief of symptoms to show?


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## chr157y

I don't know if he's ever been tested, so I don't know what exactly he's allergic to. We live close to Philly, but he's originally from England. He had no allergies whatsoever in England. His allergies were so bad in PA, he contemplated moving (fall and spring). He started putting a teaspoon of honey in his coffee every morning, and his allergies are now non-existent. My dad cured his too. He used to stay inside with the A/C on, b/c his allergies were terrible. He doesn't like honey in his coffee, so he drinks it in iced tea every day. My dad's allergies were both spring and fall too. He's had them his whole life and has always suffered. I'm not sure how long it took until they noticed a difference. 

Needless to say, I'll probably never have enough honey to sell. My family is going to suck the supply dry.


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## sqkcrk

I wondered if the allergy season passed. Most things that people are seasonally allergic to are airborne pollens, which honey does not contain. So what's the connection? I'm glad they are not suffering. I'm just suspicious of the cause and effect conclusion.


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## chr157y

It's not something that they just started recently. They have been doing it for a few years now, ingesting the honey every single day. Their allergies are non-existent during spring an fall, so it's not just an issue of the season passing.

I'm a new beekeeper, so I have a lot to learn, but it seems odd that even if something is wind pollinated that the bees completely stay away from it. Sure, a plant may be wind pollinated, but bees may still visit it..... like tomatoes. They get shaken, right?? But the bumbles still visit them and collect the pollen.


My original point was that if a customer is asking for local honey, they are either doing so b/c:
A) They want to support a local business
B) They want to cure their allergies.

If they are looking to cure their allergies, I'd say within 50 miles is definitely local.


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## Rader Sidetrack

I'm staying out of the local honey/pollen/allergy issue entirely.  

But note that bumbles pollinate tomatoes because their bodies are built right to be able to efficiently access tomato pollen, and honeybees can't duplicate that. Here is one explanation of how that works:

http://pollinator.com/self_pollinating_tomato.htm
- more -
http://pollinator.com/tomato.htm

.


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## sqkcrk

chr157y said:


> I'm a new beekeeper, so I have a lot to learn, but it seems odd that even if something is wind pollinated that the bees completely stay away from it. Sure, a plant may be wind pollinated, but bees may still visit it..... like tomatoes. They get shaken, right?? But the bumbles still visit them and collect the pollen.


What gets shaken? Tomatoe plants? Maybe so, your point? Wind borne pollen is not collected by bees. Pine pollen is an allergen. It is not collected by honeybees. It is not found in honey.

You are keeping bumblebees and collecting their honey?


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## Mike Gillmore

A lot of people have terrible allergy symptoms in early spring from tree pollen. Don't the bees work tree blooms for pollen?


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## sqkcrk

I don't know anyone who is allergic to basswood or locust or sourwood, do you?
Do you know what tree pollen the people you know are allergic to?


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## clyderoad

A related thread recently titled "Ethics of selling honey as your own" might be of interest.


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## Mike Gillmore

sqkcrk said:


> I don't know anyone who is allergic to basswood or locust or sourwood, do you?
> Do you know what tree pollen the people you know are allergic to?


A handful of the trees below are worked by bees for pollen.


> Most trees release their pollen in the late winter or early spring. Tree pollens that trigger allergies tend to be very fine and powdery. The wind can carry them for miles.
> 
> While pollen may be almost invisible, inhaling even small amounts can trigger allergy symptoms.
> Trees that often trigger allergies include:
> 
> 
> Ash
> Aspen
> Beech
> Birch
> Box elder
> Cedar
> Cottonwood
> Elm
> Hickory
> Mountain elder
> Mulberry
> Oak
> Pecan
> Willow


http://www.webmd.com/allergies/tree-pollen-allergy


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## sqkcrk

What? No Pine on the list? Maybe Pine Pollen isn't what people are allergic to in SC in the Spring.


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## Michael Bush

>If they are looking to cure their allergies, I'd say within 50 miles is definitely local.

In some places the next valley 10 miles away has different plants. I other places the plants are pretty much the same for a 500 mile radius...


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## sqkcrk

What are they allergic to? Is it found in what is considered local to the beehives and the sufferers? What in the honey relieves them from their symptoms? Pollen in general? Does taking pollen in capsules have the same effect?


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## Acebird

Local and raw honey is a label on the jar. There is no standard, no testing and of course no policing of the label. Local and raw honey is what you can produce in your back yard if you so choose. Almost all beekeepers selling honey will buy honey from someone else and put it in their jars if their supply runs out. However they will still use their own label. So if you are buying from a salesman you are getting sold what ever they have. Almost all beekeepers selling honey are salesman.


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## GLOCK

Acebird said:


> Almost all beekeepers selling honey will buy honey from someone else and put it in their jars if their supply runs out. However they will still use their own label. So if you are buying from a salesman you are getting sold what ever they have. Almost all beekeepers selling honey are salesman.


:waiting: I don't think so ACE I sold honey this past year never thought one time of doing that and I get top dollar I don't know how you can say that about almost all beekeepers your wrong .:s


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## gmcharlie

GLOCK said:


> :waiting: I don't think so ACE I sold honey this past year never thought one time of doing that and I get top dollar I don't know how you can say that about almost all beekeepers your wrong .:s


Agreed Glock, I but a lot of other honeys, all clearly labeled with the origin. to supplement what I didn't produce.


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## Jim Giles

Acebird said:


> Local and raw honey is a label on the jar. There is no standard, no testing and of course no policing of the label. Local and raw honey is what you can produce in your back yard if you so choose. Almost all beekeepers selling honey will buy honey from someone else and put it in their jars if their supply runs out. However they will still use their own label. So if you are buying from a salesman you are getting sold what ever they have. Almost all beekeepers selling honey are salesman.


A stinging reply.  You caught me drinking coffee so my apologies in advance, no offense intended, just reflecting on this very cold morning in Mississippi as I am semi-sick but unlike anytime before in my life I am consuming my honey. I got up a couple times last night and took a couple of small spoonfuls of my honey. I felt as I've felt many times before when a bad cold or flu was coming on but now I've got it, the sickness, sore throat, etc., at bay. Any other time and I would be taking stuff made by Bayer, et al. But now I don't take anything made by pharmaceutical companies and I feel pretty good. Not 100 percent but I'm trending even and for sure not going downhill at least not for the moment.

Back to your comments. I have a marketing degree and an MBA albeit it's from cow college in Starkville and not Harvard. In any event, I know lots about selling. Lots and lots and lots. I know all the rules, e.g., never speak ill of a competitor, etc. Reminds me of Ronald Reagan's Eleventh Commandment:

"The personal attacks against me during the primary finally became so heavy that the state Republican chairman, Gaylord Parkinson, postulated what he called the Eleventh Commandment: Thou shalt not speak ill of any fellow Republican. It's a rule I followed during that campaign and have ever since."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eleventh_Commandment_(Ronald_Reagan)

I'm not trying to stir up a hornet's nest but truth is truth, lies are lies and deception and fraud are not only unethical, immoral and wrong but illegal or should be. The Mississippi Beekeepers Association recently held their annual convention in Tupelo where I once told some politicians "Y'all done stirred up a hornet's nest and I intend to see all of you get stung" and where the MBA invited none other than Monsanto (the government's INDEPENDENT researchers' new best friend) to speak. Again, I'm not a scientist but my instincts tell me Monsanto's products are killing honeybees and that Varroa mites and hive beetles are attacking a much weakened honeybee because the honeybee's natural immune system has been weakened with all the insecticides out there. It's not rocket science nor a mystery. Poison kills bees. Period.

The title I chose, what is local raw honey is tantamount to asking what is freedom, democracy and capitalism. The same fundamentals are at play. It all depends on who you ask. I believe in putting bees first not corporate profits. Money buys influence if not out right control and those who do Monsanto's bidding, well, shame on you. Foreign is bad. Big is bad. Small is good. Local is best!

The National Honey Board, the USDA, the FDA, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam are swarming against all things local and all things raw. They are bought and paid for. Questions that have official answers are unreliable and those unanswered compelling questions without 'official' answers? Trust your instincts!

My apologies again. Blame it on the coffee.


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## Nabber86

Rader Sidetrack said:


> >> U.S.D.A. States that produce grown within 400 miles of selling point is local.
> 
> > Reference?
> 
> http://www.ers.usda.gov/ersDownloadHandler.ashx?file=/media/122868/err97_1_.pdf.
> 
> But, other USDA files do not necessarily follow the lead dog ...  :lpf:


So from the U.S. Congress in the 2008 Food, Conservation, and Energy Act (2008 Farm Act): 
_
The total distance that a product can be transported and still be considered a “locally or regionally produced agricultural food product is less than 400 miles from its origin, or within the State in which it is product.

_Interesting how they throw the terms_ regionallly produced_ and _within the state in which it was produced_ in there as well. The definition seems to benefit the producer rather than the consumer and coming from congress, it doesnt suprise me.


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## sqkcrk

How do your customers define what local is? That seems to be what is or should be important to producer/sellers, shouldn't it?


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> Almost all beekeepers selling honey will buy honey from someone else and put it in their jars if their supply runs out. However they will still use their own label. So if you are buying from a salesman you are getting sold what ever they have. Almost all beekeepers selling honey are salesman.


I take my honey from my backyard, extract it in my kitchen, and sell it from a stand on a gravel pull-out (wide spot in the road) that is exactly 1 mile from my house (I just checked on Google Maps). When people ask me if it is local, I tell them to head south and turn left on the next road, then right on the next, second house on right, and hives are in the backyard. I also don’t label my jars. Doesn’t get more local than that. 

However I will lie and tell them that it will cure their allergies (bunions, arthritis, ED, and such); but only if they ask. I got in an argument with one lady before when she got mad after I told her that it probably won’t do much for allergies. She lectured me for 10 minutes and finally I said, “Come to think of it, I did feed some honey to my dog and he stopped sneezing and his skin rash disappeared”. She is now my best customer.


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## sqkcrk

Nabber86 said:


> I also don’t label my jars. Doesn’t get more local than that.


Nor any more illegal either. Selling honey w/out a label.


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## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> Nor any more illegal either. Selling honey w/out a label.


Probably not, because I am below some Federal de minimis level, ouside of the city limits (local health code), and not selling in a retail environment. Anyway, call the feds and tell them that I am on the NW corner of 167th and Metcalf. I will let you know when they get me so you can say, "I told you so".


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## sqkcrk

Label Laws are not Federally Enforced, they are a State matter. I care nothing for what you do or how you do it. Just pointing out you may be acting illegally.


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## Acebird

GLOCK said:


> :waiting: I don't think so ACE I sold honey this past year never thought one time of doing that and I get top dollar I don't know how you can say that about almost all beekeepers your wrong .:s


Because you are not dependent on the sales which probably means you are not a salesman. When I said "almost all beekeepers" I didn't mean to include the ones selling fifty jars to support their hobby. If you get to the point where you are spending money to develop your market you are not going to turn customers away because your personal well went dry.


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## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> Label Laws are not Federally Enforced, they are a State matter. I care nothing for what you do or how you do it. Just pointing out you may be acting illegally.



Well if that is the case, I am not breaking any laws. Kansas has virtually no laws regarding beekeeping or private honey sales. Obvious laws for "honey processing facilities" and licensed retail sales excepted. Each farmer's market has their own set of guidelines; generally requiring a label if for anything, liability reasons. 

On the county level, the sheriff’s deputies regularly park in the same pull-out where I set up my stand (eating doughnuts and ticketing people for running the stop sign). They always ignore me and one time I actually walked over to the patrol car and asked him if I was doing anything wrong, just to make sure. We talked about bees and honey and gave him a bottle. There is that pesky sales tax thing, but that is a whole nother legal issue. 

However, to further incriminate myself; surely the FDA and the USDA regulate labeling laws. Arent the ones that require the following?:
http://www.honey.com/honey-industry/honey-testing-and-regulations/honey-labeling/

Now I am really confused/. :scratch:


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> If you get to the point where you are spending money to develop your market you are not going to turn customers away because your personal well went dry.


I'm not spending money to develop my market, but I have. And I have found that as a beekeeper buying honey to maintain market share is not economical. I have cut way back on my outlets and sales because honey purchased doesn't turn into profits. Stick to what you know Brian.


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## AstroBee

Nabber86 said:


> and gave him a bottle.


Oh boy, now you're in a deeper hole for bribing a law enforcement officer :lpf:

Be sure to post which jail they are putting you in and we'll bring you an OB hive to help pass your hard time....


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## sqkcrk

Yes, you are. The National Honey Board (NHB) is not a regulating branch of Federal Government and Police or State Troopers do not enforce State Labeling Laws and Regulations. That's the Dept. of Weights and Measures in most States.

I'm sure you have nothing to worry about. You aren't big enough to be of concern to anyone. Not worth the time of almost any regulatory agency State or Federal. Unless someone wants to make a point and use you as an example. Don't worry, be happy.


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## Nabber86

AstroBee said:


> Oh boy, now you're in a deeper hole for bribing a law enforcement officer :lpf:
> 
> Be sure to post which jail they are putting you in and we'll bring you an OB hive to help pass your hard time....


I first met the sheriff when I got pulled over for blowing that stop sign on the corner. Funny thing was, he followed me right up into my driveway and then hit the siren; scared the bejeezes out of me (not to mention the amusement of the neighbors). I didn’t notice that he was following me because it was very cold, the fire was burning out in my BBQ smoker, and I was in a hurry to put some more wood in the fire box. I jumped out of my truck, grabbed a log, and looked back at him asking if it was OK to stoke the fire. Not a good idea because it was probably good cause for police pursuit, resisting arrest, or the use of deadly force (assaulting an officer with a log). Anyway, he said go ahead. As I went back to the car he was laughing and told me not to run the stop sign again. I gave him a half slab of ribs and promised never to do it again. 

I will leave the part about my unlicensed and undocumented catering activities for another discussion.


----------



## Jim Giles

Food Sales at Farmers' Markets

Retail food sales are regulated by the Kansas Department of Agriculture. The objective is to ensure that all foods offered for sale are safe and wholesome. For additional information please view Farmers' Markets in Kansas.

The sale of non-potentially hazardous foods is allowed at farmers' markets. Non-potentially hazardous foods include baked goods, such as cookies, breads, cakes, cinnamon rolls and fruit pies. Other non-potentially hazardous foods include fresh fruits and vegetables, nuts and *honey*.

Home-grown produce may be sold, provided that any pesticide use complies with label directions.

*Packaged products must be labeled with the common name of the product, and the name and address of the producer.*

http://agriculture.ks.gov/divisions-programs/food-safety-lodging/food-sales-at-farmers'-markets


----------



## melliferal

I am probably the wet blanket at this party. I never bothered to try and add the word "local" to my honey. I'm not dependent on honey sales for my livelihood, so I'm not interested in working every single possible angle to net every single possible customer; and anyway, most of the people I've sold to had the common sense to realize outright that I didn't drive in from two or three _hundred_ miles away to sit at a folding table at the city farmer's market with a hand-painted sign and sell a couple dozen jars of honey.

"Raw" - must be a regional thing. as I never had people coming up and asking me to confirm that my honey is "raw". I imagine the same people mentioned above might easily assume that the guy sitting at the folding table with a painted sign doesn't have a several-thousand-dollar pressure-filtering processing line in his garage; it's one of those things that tends to go without saying. If I ever find myself in that situation where somebody asks, of course I'll tell them that I don't pasteurize or pressure-process the honey if that's what they wish to know.

And I absolutely will not try to tell anyone that honey will treat anything, except a sweet tooth. I have had people ask me about rumors that honey "cures" things like allergies, arthritis, one time even _multiple sclerosis(!!!)_, having heard such things from other places and obviously wanting confirmation from someone who they would consider to be personally knowledgeable; but the best anybody has gotten (and likely will ever get) out of me on that issue is "I've heard that too". My customers should buy honey because it is a deliciously sweet natural and minimally-processed product with all kinds of uses. Maybe that's not good enough for some people, but I won't turn it into snake oil in order to make customers out of them; the lady who sells all the bottles of infused whatever-the-heck is three booths down.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Here is what Kansas Dept of Ag says about honey sales requirements/labeling on a small scale, (i.e., farmers markets):

https://agriculture.ks.gov/divisions-programs/food-safety-lodging/food-sales-at-farmers%27-markets

You could easily make a case that selling _comb honey _involves no packaging at all, and therefore has absolutely _no _labeling requirement - just like selling tomatoes or corn.


----------



## melliferal

Hmmm. Do people actually sell just bare combs of honey, sitting out on the table like so many tomatoes or ears of corn? I'd always seen comb sections in little clear plastic packages at the very least, which I'd assume need a label of some kind.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

I'm not in Kansas, so my point was rhetorical. :lookout:

But from a legal compliance point of view, an uncut comb of honey is no different than an ear of corn. If you chose, one could sell a full "bar" of comb honey, or those smaller basswood style boxes that fit in a frame holder would be similar.

In another recent thread, the poster mentioned also having a 5 gallon bucket of honey (presumably with a honey gate) at his farmers market stall, and selling customers honey which went into empty jars that the customers brought to his stall. Since the vendor is not providing the packaging, there is nothing to label.


----------



## sqkcrk

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Here is what Kansas Dept of Ag says about honey sales requirements/labeling on a small scale, (i.e., farmers markets):
> 
> https://agriculture.ks.gov/divisions-programs/food-safety-lodging/food-sales-at-farmers%27-markets
> 
> You could easily make a case that selling _comb honey _involves no packaging at all, and therefore has absolutely _no _labeling requirement - just like selling tomatoes or corn.


Traditionally comb honey is under different requirements from liquid honey. Liquid honey has to be sold by weight. Not so comb honey.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Well, if you read the Kansas rules at the link I provided, there is no requirement to sell honey by weight.


----------



## sqkcrk

"We're not in Kansas anymore Toto."


----------



## Nabber86

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, if you read the Kansas rules at the link I provided, there is no requirement to sell honey by weight.


That is why you sell tomatoes by the basket or bag at a roadside stand. I have heard of the state beureu of weights and measures has gone after people who were selling by the pound without a certified scale. "Would you like a _large, medium, or small jar _of honey mam".

As far as Farmer's Markets go, I am sure that they know the State rules and enforce them. They dont need the liability. Also from what I have heard, other honey vendors may not take kindly to you setting up shop and they will complain about any infractions. 

Not worth my time to drive 40 miles round trip to the FM to sell honey anyway. I can unload 25 to 50 pounds of honey on the side of the road in an afternoon. Actually I send my daughters out there and they get a 20% cut. The added benefit is that if the law does come around, they take the rap.


----------



## rniles

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, if you read the Kansas rules at the link I provided, there is no requirement to sell honey by weight.


Lucky - I'm not sure but it seems honey is the only liquid food source that has to be sold by weight instead of volume ..it seems volume would make more sense - or allow us to decide weight or volume.


----------



## KQ6AR

Bees will bring in the lower quality pollens from wind pollinated plants when there isn't better pollen available.
Heck they'll even collect saw dust, bird seed dust etc.


----------



## TalonRedding

KQ6AR said:


> Bees will bring in the lower quality pollens from wind pollinated plants when there isn't better pollen available.
> Heck they'll even collect saw dust, bird seed dust etc.


This is true! I had bees collecting cedar sawdust where I had been making bottom boards. Pretty neat!


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> I have cut way back on my outlets and sales because honey purchased doesn't turn into profits.


The guy that buys it from you sells it at the same price?:scratch:

Explain to me what I don't know.


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> Local and raw honey is a label on the jar. There is no standard, no testing and of course no policing of the label. Local and raw honey is what you can produce in your back yard if you so choose. Almost all beekeepers selling honey will buy honey from someone else and put it in their jars if their supply runs out. However they will still use their own label. So if you are buying from a salesman you are getting sold what ever they have. Almost all beekeepers selling honey are salesman.


Acebird, 

Apparently you have a pretty poor opinion of "most beekeepers". 

I think most beekeepers would find your comment offensive.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> The guy that buys it from you sells it at the same price?:scratch:
> 
> Explain to me what I don't know.


The guy that buys it from me marks it up when it goes on the shelf. That or they eat it and don't resell it.

Explain to you what you don't understand? Not enough time or energy.


----------



## Acebird

That is my point. Honey purchased is sold with the intent to turn a profit.



> Apparently you have a pretty poor opinion of "most beekeepers".


Apparently that is the way you see it. It is not the way I intended it. Sorry if anyone took offence.


----------



## sqkcrk

You seem to make poorly worded blanket statements which you pull out of somewhere that don't make sense or don't jibe w/ other peoples actual experience. That's what I was getting at.

People make offensive statements. People are offended by them. You should apologize for being offensive for something you did, not sorry for something someone else felt. I found what you wrote mildly offensive, but sloughed it off. Chocking it up to the way you seem to unintentionally say things.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Its probably just a _speed of light _situation.  



:gh:


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> You seem to make poorly worded blanket statements


Yes, I may be guilty. What I have a hard time figuring out is do people take offence because the statement wrong, taken wrong, or right? It never seems clear to me. Not to put you on the spot but are you telling me you never bought honey from someone else and resold it?



> Its probably just a speed of light situation.


Could be...


----------



## sqkcrk

I thought I did say that I did buy honey and sold it at an increased price and lost money. So I stopped doing that. Clear?


----------



## Barry

sqkcrk said:


> but sloughed it off. Chocking it up to the way you seem to unintentionally say things.


Now if many more would do this, the noise level in some of these threads would go down. Ace has been around here long enough for us to know his personality. Like in our adult family, we learn to work with the personalities of everyone. We don't keep telling them to change and point out their flaws, for we too have flaws. I'm glad Brian has stuck it out here. He adds a dimension that I rather enjoy. He thinks outside the box, sometimes to his detriment, but that's OK.


----------



## Jim Giles

melliferal said:


> I am probably the wet blanket at this party. I never bothered to try and add the word "local" to my honey. I'm not dependent on honey sales for my livelihood, so I'm not interested in working every single possible angle to net every single possible customer; and anyway, most of the people I've sold to had the common sense to realize outright that I didn't drive in from two or three _hundred_ miles away to sit at a folding table at the city farmer's market with a hand-painted sign and sell a couple dozen jars of honey.
> 
> "Raw" - must be a regional thing. as I never had people coming up and asking me to confirm that my honey is "raw". I imagine the same people mentioned above might easily assume that the guy sitting at the folding table with a painted sign doesn't have a several-thousand-dollar pressure-filtering processing line in his garage; it's one of those things that tends to go without saying. If I ever find myself in that situation where somebody asks, of course I'll tell them that I don't pasteurize or pressure-process the honey if that's what they wish to know.
> 
> And I absolutely will not try to tell anyone that honey will treat anything, except a sweet tooth. I have had people ask me about rumors that honey "cures" things like allergies, arthritis, one time even _multiple sclerosis(!!!)_, having heard such things from other places and obviously wanting confirmation from someone who they would consider to be personally knowledgeable; but the best anybody has gotten (and likely will ever get) out of me on that issue is "I've heard that too". My customers should buy honey because it is a deliciously sweet natural and minimally-processed product with all kinds of uses. Maybe that's not good enough for some people, but I won't turn it into snake oil in order to make customers out of them; the lady who sells all the bottles of infused whatever-the-heck is three booths down.


No offense sir or ma'am but altruism and anonymity while exquisitely expressing a professional reply employing 'snake oil' in relation to local raw honey while we are literally flooded with insecticides and foreign 'honey.' :s (What's in that foreign 'honey' anyway?)

I dislike anonymity. I guess I watched too many John Wayne movies growing up.

Where is your disdain for the bulk of honey produced in this country rather than pointing your finger at the tiny almost nonexistent crowd of local raw enthusiasts? I didn't know until recently the following:

"Consumers continue to demand cheaper and cheaper products, and there's a shortage of honey in the United States because consumers buy about 400 million pounds per year but producers only supply 150 million pounds. So foreign businesses, especially manufacturers in China, are capitalizing on the sweet opportunity."

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/206463151.html

I disagree with the idea that "consumers continue to demand cheaper and cheaper products." They don't have a choice but to buy cheap Chinese crap from Wal-Mart and Sam's including honey. 

There is no 'party' for 'local raw honey.' None. No where. The only party occurring today is controlled by corporate titans who also control the money and the media. There is a very tiny group of well informed and well read individuals out there who are now looking back to old traditions and finding the food we once ate was a lot better for us than the crap we have to choose from today. Again, I'm no scientist nor do I expect scientific declarations that the American diet is the root cause for the epidemic in childhood disorders especially autism and obesity. But I do trust my instincts and common sense which you seem to be a fan of. 

Where is the corporate zeal to uncover the dramatic change in the basic way most Americans look? Most Americans are 'over weight' are they not?

I have learned a whole lot from this forum which is obviously filled with very knowledgeable beekeepers but just as in Mississippi I don't understand why there is not a bigger outcry against the poison from Monsanto, et al. I'll tell you a not so funny story. I was set up at the Mississippi Farmers Market in Jackson several weeks ago and this man comes by and starts denigrating Monsanto in a very spooky sinister way. He sounded bat **** *****. I suspect my reputation for being a radical caused this assumed police agent or Monsanto mole to come my way and bait me.

BTW, a rocket scientist once told me a radical is someone who does not compromise. Is it not fair to say that most honey for sale in the U.S. today is 'compromised?'

Local Raw Honey! :applause:


----------



## melliferal

Jim Giles said:


> No offense sir or ma'am but altruism and anonymity while exquisitely expressing a professional reply employing 'snake oil' in relation to local raw honey while we are literally flooded with insecticides and foreign 'honey.' :s (What's in that foreign 'honey' anyway?)
> 
> I dislike anonymity. I guess I watched too many John Wayne movies growing up.


Fair enough; but this is also the internet, and it's full of crazy stalky people (if the last decade's worth of news is any indication). Besides, it's better if you disagree with something I've posted to rebut what was posted, not the person who posted it. If a complete idiot makes a good argument, it's still a good argument after all (and vice versa).

My comment in regards to "snake oil" was only toward the idea of attributing all kinds of medical effects to honey that it hasn't really been proven to have. I'm not comfortable enough to get personally behind any such claims. I don't go around correct people any time I hear such things, I just won't put my support behind the claims. YMMV.

I'm not against buying "local" and "raw" honey, obviously. I sell the stuff. Well, sold. And I tell people to buy honey from local sellers at local farm markets exclusively, rather than buying grocery store honey. But in choosing labels for my own stuff, if we're talking about words that can mean pretty much anything the person wants them to, then we're talking about words that actually mean nothing. Yes, if it's _possible_ that some large-scale sideliner from say Mobile, could theoretically drive over to sell his honey in one of the huge New Orleans farm markets and still call it "local honey" because it's a less-than-400-mile drive, I think that's patently ridiculous and I'm not going to participate in the farce by also pasting thus-meaningless "local" stickers on my honey too. My labels have the address of my apiary on them; locals will know if it's "local" enough for them that way. Again, YMMV.

As an aside, this appears in my fuzzy memory to be the second time you've seemed to insinuate after something I've posted that I might be some kind of police agent or Monsanto spy or something. I'm not offended _yet_, but I'm starting to not-appreciate it. You don't see me questioning peoples' integrity or postulating about secret hidden agendas just because they post something I disagree with; some reciprocity would be cool.


----------



## Jim Giles

> Fair enough; but this is also the internet, and it's full of crazy stalky people


If the fairer sex you have not only my understanding but also my support.



> If a complete idiot makes a good argument, it's still a good argument after all (and vice versa).


I don't think complete idiots are capable of good arguments. And good arguments demand critical analysis.



> My comment in regards to "snake oil" was only toward the idea of attributing all kinds of medical effects to honey that it hasn't really been proven to have. I'm not comfortable enough to get personally behind any such claims. I don't go around correct people any time I hear such things, I just won't put my support behind the claims.


We have completely different perspectives on the matter of who is doing the hawking of 'snake oil.' I do label my honey "Raw Honey" and I have a small blackboard at the farmers market on which is written "Local Raw Honey Favors." I do not 'hawk' my honey to anyone. Local raw honey is understood by an erudite community of folks to mean obviously different things to different people but in general it means to the affluent erudite individuals who buy my honey to mean that it principally has not been 'processed.' I consider my best sales skill to be a good listener. I only answer questions to the best of my knowledge and rely on my consumers to tell me what they know or think. But 'snake oil' has such a sting to it and it's best directed at those who label honey as their own when it is not and for those selling foreign honey when it's not even real honey. That to me is genuine 'snake oil.' As for the health benefits of local raw honey over foreign processed honey, my research has just begun and I'm sanguine about what I will discover. But I never make claims about what local raw honey will do or not do health-wise. That would be silly since I'm not a doctor.




> I'm not against buying "local" and "raw" honey, obviously. I sell the stuff. Well, sold. And I tell people to buy honey from local sellers at local farm markets exclusively, rather than buying grocery store honey. But in choosing labels for my own stuff, if we're talking about words that can mean pretty much anything the person wants them to, then we're talking about words that actually mean nothing.


While I'm not proactive in making claims about what local raw honey's health benefits actually are, I disagree that such advertising means nothing when you answer the question what is actually in that foreign processed 'honey.' And your support of local and raw above only confuses me when you also use the highly disparaging term, 'snake oil.' Have you personally heard another honey vendor exaggerate the health benefits of local raw honey and if so what precisely did they say? Did they say it would cure multiple sclerosis?



> As an aside, this appears in my fuzzy memory to be the second time you've seemed to insinuate after something I've posted that I might be some kind of police agent or Monsanto spy or something. I'm not offended _yet_, but I'm starting to not-appreciate it. You don't see me questioning peoples' integrity or postulating about secret hidden agendas just because they post something I disagree with; some reciprocity would be cool.


I have no such memory and as the OP I was simply defending local raw honey and feel the use of 'snake oil' epitomizes questioning another's integrity. As for reciprocity, I thought I was deferential in describing your use of the English language. In any event, best wishes from Giles Shire!


----------



## melliferal

Jim Giles said:


> If the fairer sex you have not only my understanding but also my support.


But I am not. 



Jim Giles said:


> I don't think complete idiots are capable of good arguments. And good arguments demand critical analysis.


I often hear the adage that "a stopped clock is right twice a day"; even someone who is habitually wrong, alarmist, or over-reactive can be right about a given issue, even if by accident.



Jim Giles said:


> We have completely different perspectives on the matter of who is doing the hawking of 'snake oil.' I do label my honey "Raw Honey" and I have a small blackboard at the farmers market on which is written "Local Raw Honey Favors." I do not 'hawk' my honey to anyone. Local raw honey is understood by an erudite community of folks to mean obviously different things to different people but in general it means to the affluent erudite individuals who buy my honey to mean that it principally has not been 'processed.' I consider my best sales skill to be a good listener. I only answer questions to the best of my knowledge and rely on my consumers to tell me what they know or think. But 'snake oil' has such a sting to it and it's best directed at those who label honey as their own when it is not and for those selling foreign honey when it's not even real honey. That to me is genuine 'snake oil.' As for the health benefits of local raw honey over foreign processed honey, my research has just begun and I'm sanguine about what I will discover. But I never make claims about what local raw honey will do or not do health-wise. That would be silly since I'm not a doctor.


Then we actually agree on the topic. I clarified in my last post that by "snake oil" I'm referring to attributing medical benefits to honey that it doesn't have. It's a separate matter from use of the terms "raw" or "local".




Jim Giles said:


> While I'm not proactive in making claims about what local raw honey's health benefits actually are, I disagree that such advertising means nothing when you answer the question what is actually in that foreign processed 'honey.'


My understanding is, a significant amount of sugar syrup, and also some residual bee-medicines and treatments that are either illegal in the US outright, or not allowed to be in the finished product that's intended to be eaten by people (i.e, local beekeepers who use medicines don't administer them when bees are filling supers for example). That is what I tell people when they ask me what's wrong with foreign honey.



Jim Giles said:


> And your support of local and raw above only confuses me when you also use the highly disparaging term, 'snake oil.' Have you personally heard another honey vendor exaggerate the health benefits of local raw honey and if so what precisely did they say? Did they say it would cure multiple sclerosis?


No, I have not personally heard any vendors giving this information. But _somebody_ is telling (potential) customers that honey can cure MS, or asthma, or allergies, or rheumatism; because it's the customers coming up to me and asking me if those things are true. I have no idea the source. Old wives' tales? Dr. Oz? Internet blogs? Grandma? Maybe some or all of these, maybe none. But it's darn well coming from somewhere, because it's what I get asked - and other people even in this very thread have reported hearing the same things (one guy said one of his customers became angry and confrontational when he expressed skepticism about some health benefit of honey or other!).

I _have_ personally heard all kinds of questionable miraculous medical properties attributed to getting stung, but I suppose that's a separate issue.

Also, repeating the clarification from my last post again, "turning honey into snake oil" was a reference to people attributing health benefits to honey that it's not certainly known to have. It's not a reference to people using the terms "raw" or "local" to describe their honey - my "issues" (such as they are) with using those terms myself are also separate and I've already separately explained them. You are conflating my reasons for disliking making the medical claims with my reasons for avoiding the "local" label.


----------



## Acebird

Barry said:


> He adds a dimension that I rather enjoy. He thinks outside the box, sometimes to his detriment, but that's OK.


Barry, I have never met a man who has succeeded that didn't have many prior failures. I say and do a lot of things to my detriment and that is OK with me too. I count my successes. I don't count and in many cases remember all my failures.


----------



## GLOCK

Barry said:


> Now if many more would do this, the noise level in some of these threads would go down. Ace has been around here long enough for us to know his personality. Like in our adult family, we learn to work with the personalities of everyone. We don't keep telling them to change and point out their flaws, for we too have flaws. I'm glad Brian has stuck it out here. He adds a dimension that I rather enjoy. He thinks outside the box, sometimes to his detriment, but that's OK.


I agree he makes it that much more fun here at BC. I think he brings a lot of things out in some threads and it's very entertaining to read. :thumbsup:


----------



## Mike Gillmore

I also notice that the point-counterpoint discussions Brian initiates tend to flush out much more detail and explanation on each side of a discussion which typically might be ignored or glossed over. Everyone is learning something in the process.


----------



## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> I don't count and in many cases remember all my failures.


Dont worry Rader is keeping a running tally for you.


----------



## sqkcrk

Mike Gillmore said:


> Everyone is learning something in the process.


Really? Everyone? Gotta link for that? :lpf:


----------



## Mike Gillmore

There's one in every crowd.


----------



## Acebird

Mike Gillmore said:


> I also notice that the point-counterpoint discussions Brian initiates tend to flush out much more detail and explanation on each side of a discussion which typically might be ignored or glossed over. Everyone is learning something in the process.


Now you have made my day. Thank you for that.


----------



## Acebird

Nabber86 said:


> Dont worry Rader is keeping a running tally for you.


I give a thumbs up to Rader he is coming around. You haven't noticed? I have.:thumbsup:


----------



## Jim Giles

"There have been *no peer-reviewed scientific studies* that have conclusively proven whether honey actually reduces allergies. Almost all evidence regarding the immunizing effects of eating honey is anecdotal. But these reports have proven persuasive enough for some people to try to fight their seasonal allergies by eating honey every day.

*Without scientific inquiry*, we're left with only theories about how honey could reduce allergies. The prevailing theory is that it works like a vaccination. Vaccines introduce dummy versions of a particular virus or germ into the body and effectively trick it into believing it's been invaded, triggering an immune system response [source: UNICEF]. This produces antibodies designated to fight off the foreign invaders. When the body is actually exposed to the harmful germ or virus, the antibodies are ready for them."

http://health.howstuffworks.com/dis...rgy-treatments/local-honey-for-allergies2.htm

There are a gazillion peer-reviewed scientific studies out there and 'scientific inquiry' into everything under the sun including ridiculously absurd studies but no peer-reviewed studies and scientific inquiry into local raw honey or the demise of the honey bee. :s Could this be a clue? 

Do you have an agricultural school in your state which employs entomologists? Is Monsanto paying them to conduct studies in such a manner that no evidence is discovered documenting the link between massive bee deaths and insecticides? More specifically, has Monsanto bought off _independent_ government researchers? How much is Monsanto paying entomologists to remain silent about insecticides and honey bee die offs? Does your entomologist refer to poison manufactured by Monsanto as insecticides or pesticides? Mine refers to 'it' as pesticides only. If this were private rather than public I would still be concerned but given government entomologists are employed by 'the people' this relationship/arrangement is nothing less than criminal. FYI, Monsanto's net sales as of August 2013 were nearly 15 billion dollars. Can you count that high, boy? Reckon that kind of money, any of it, is used to 'influence' others? Are those 'others' obliged NOT to be influenced by anything or anyone except scientific evidence?

Why doesn't our government simply ban all foreign importation of honey? If such a ban were enacted who would benefit?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

What I think has occurred is that Ace's posting style has _evolved_.  There are fewer direct, "concrete is unaffected by ambient temperature" style posts, and more "Tell me what I don't know" style posts.

When someone (not just Ace) posts allegedly factual information that is _clearly _wrong, I often choose to challenge that and provide a link to a supporting reference. If someone chooses to make posts clearly of a more _opinion _nature, my reaction is different. :thumbsup:


----------



## sqkcrk

Jim Giles said:


> Why doesn't our government simply ban all foreign importation of honey? If such a ban were enacted who would benefit?


Those who already smuggle honey into the US labeled rice sugar?


----------



## melliferal

Jim Giles said:


> There are a gazillion peer-reviewed scientific studies out there and 'scientific inquiry' into everything under the sun including ridiculously absurd studies but no peer-reviewed studies and scientific inquiry into local raw honey or the demise of the honey bee. :s Could this be a clue?


Nah; you're reading emphasis into the wrong half of the sentence:

"There have been no peer-reviewed scientific studies *that have conclusively proven whether honey actually reduces allergies*."

There have been peer-reviewed scientific studies; it's just that none of them was able to prove conclusively (i.e., at a better-than-chance rate) that honey reduces allergies. 

It's hardly evidence of a cover-up; the special health benefits that many specific foods are alleged to have often tend to disappear when put to a test more rigorous than "I ate some honey and felt better afterwards, so it must work" for example. And this doesn't just go for food, but for all kinds of things. Elderly golfers wearing special bracelets on their wrists that supposedly calm their arthritis comes to mind.

There's a USDA bee lab in my state; its prominent work right now involves cultivating the VSH gene. I believe, though, that there's a state school in Minnesota whose entomologists have vocally implicated pesticides/insecticides in bee problems. They don't focus on Monsanto of course, because it's logically not just Monsanto's pesticides that's the problem, but all mass-applied crop pesticides.


----------



## sqkcrk

And there are studies from MT which show no problems from clothiniadin in field corn.


----------



## gmcharlie

Jim Giles said:


> How much is Monsanto paying entomologists to remain silent about insecticides and honey bee die offs? Does your entomologist refer to poison manufactured by Monsanto as insecticides or pesticides? Mine refers to 'it' as pesticides only. If this were private rather than public I would still be concerned but given government entomologists are employed by 'the people' this relationship/arrangement is nothing less than criminal.


Really? you belive this?? you think thats its a HUGE massive coverup?? you don't follow the public very well then cause for every one of "bought off" people there are 10 wanting the 15 minutes of fame for being a "Leaker"..... There are a TON more studies against pesticides than for them right now.  why? cause of government funding...

Same with Honey and allergies.. there are dozens of studies that show it has no effect. not what we want to hear, so we as a group listen to the customers who say there wrong... WE have selective hearing.. from Honey works, to neonics are bad..... we hear what we want to hear... I think the hmm of bees drowns out common sense sometimes...
(but it could be the tinfoil also):s


----------



## Nabber86

Jim Giles said:


> "There have been *no peer-reviewed scientific studies* that have conclusively proven whether honey actually reduces allergies. Almost all evidence regarding the immunizing effects of eating honey is anecdotal. But these reports have proven persuasive enough for some people to try to fight their seasonal allergies by eating honey every day.


Even if there were peer-reviewed scientific papers that claim honey cures allergies, I doubt that I would even bother to read them. Here is my concise argument to that old snake oil theory (of course I don’t tell my customers this): 

1 – You are allergic to pollen that comes from local plants.

2 – When you are standing in your backyard at the height of allergy season, you are inhaling thousands upon thousands of grains of pollen with every breath. 

3 – The pollen ends up in the mucous in the back of your throat and as anyone with allergies knows, you end up swallowing it. 

4 – More pollen makes it to your throat when you breathe through your mouth (because your nose is plugged up) and you shallow this pollen as well. 

5 – So basically you are ingesting millions grains of pollen every single day; day in and day out, for weeks and months on end.

6 – Now ask yourself: HOW COULD INGESTING A FEW HUNDREDS OF GRAINS OF ADDITIONAL POLLEN IN A TEASPOON OF HONEY POSSIBLY PROVIDE ANY MORE POLLEN THAN YOU ARE ALREADY INGESTING????

7 – Lastly, many allergies come from trees and grasses that bees to not forage on. Plus there are mold and fungal problems many people have


----------



## sqkcrk

I think I'll copy that and post it on the wall of the Health Food Store where my honey is sold. I'll probably sell more honey, the way peoples minds work.


----------



## Jim Giles

Michael R. Taylor, a former Monsanto Vice President for Public Policy[296][297][298] and the current Senior Advisor to the Commissioner of the US Food and Drug Administration,[299][300] was described by Businessweek during his tenure as Monsanto's VP for Public Policy as "Monsanto's chief rep in Washington."[301]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto#United_States_2


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Certainly there is a revolving door policy in effect for appointed positions (non Civil Service) in government. That goes on at all levels of government, and in all specific areas of interest as well. Judges tend to be lawyers, financial regulators tend to be former employees of private sector banks/financial institutions, and former defense contractor employees tend to get hired by Pentagon agencies. It goes on everywhere in government, and then many of them flip to the other side.

But that doesn't mean that there is a special conspiracy when it comes to issues involving Citibank or General Mills or even Monsanto or Bayer. Its just the way that capitalism interacts with government. Its not going to go away.

It even makes a certain amount of sense that the people that involved in key decisions might actually know something about the subject in question. The _alternative _is even worse than what we have now.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

Nabber86 said:


> 6 – Now ask yourself: HOW COULD INGESTING A FEW HUNDREDS OF GRAINS OF ADDITIONAL POLLEN IN A TEASPOON OF HONEY POSSIBLY PROVIDE ANY MORE POLLEN THAN YOU ARE ALREADY INGESTING????


I have absolutely no idea "how" it works, but I do know that for some it does work. In the past I was very skeptical myself, until I saw the firsthand evidence in my own home. 

My daughter was experiencing severe allergy symptoms each spring, which were increasing in intensity every year. I finally talked her into trying a spoonful of honey daily to see if it would help ease her symptoms. She continued the daily dose of honey through the winter and the following spring she experienced no symptoms, and for the past couple of years they have not returned. 

Perhaps it's just coincidence, but I don't think so. I have several repeat customers who swear it has done the same for them. I don't think it works for everyone, but it does for some. My daughter didn't need a peer reviewed study, and neither do my customers. 

I'm not pushing honey as a cure-all, but it does have noticeable health benefits for some, which I might mention to my customers.


----------



## Acebird

Nabber86 said:


> 6 – Now ask yourself: HOW COULD INGESTING A FEW HUNDREDS OF GRAINS OF ADDITIONAL POLLEN IN A TEASPOON OF HONEY POSSIBLY PROVIDE ANY MORE POLLEN THAN YOU ARE ALREADY INGESTING????


When a person is desensitized to an allergy they are given small doses not large doses. Large doses cause the reaction small doses build the desensitization.


----------



## rwurster

I, myself, don't buy into honey curing seasonal allergies but lots of my honey customers do. They want 'local' honey and swear by its effectiveness.


----------



## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> When a person is desensitized to an allergy they are given small doses not large doses. Large doses cause the reaction small doses build the desensitization.



ACE, 

But you are already getting large doses that totally overwhelms the small dose contained in a teaspoon of honey:

3 – The pollen ends up in the mucous in the back of your throat and as anyone with allergies knows, you end up swallowing it. 

4 – More pollen makes it to your throat when you breathe through your mouth (because your nose is plugged up) and you shallow this pollen as well.

Now ask yourself: WHEN YOU ARE ALREADY TAKING A LARGE DOSE OF POLLEN, HOW COULD INGESTING A FEW ADDITIONAL GRAINS OF POLLEN IN A TEASPOON OF HONEY RESULT IN A SMALLER DOSE????


Unless you are stating the obvious about allergy desensitization in a controlled medical environment; that has already been proven, and most all people accept. If so, your post would be completely out of context with regard to my comment about honey curing allergies and you are not adding anything of value to the conversation.

The above chain of logic is pretty straight forward. If you want to proceed with the discussion _in the context of honey curing allergies_, tell me in plain simple terms (ELI5) why you think that honey cures allergies?


----------



## TalonRedding

*Local*
1
: characterized by or relating to position in space : having a definite spatial form or location
2
a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a particular place : not general or widespread
b : of, relating to, or applicable to part of a whole
3
a : primarily serving the needs of a particular limited district
b of a public conveyance : making all the stops on a route
4
: involving or affecting only a restricted part of the organism : topical <a local anesthetic>
5
: of or relating to telephone communication within a specified area

*Raw*

1
: not cooked
2
a (1) : being in or nearly in the natural state : not processed or purified <raw fibers> <raw sewage> (2) : not diluted or blended <raw spirits>
b : unprepared or imperfectly prepared for use
c : not being in polished, finished, or processed form <raw data> <a raw draft of a thesis>
3
a (1) : having the surface abraded or chafed (2) : very irritated <a raw sore throat>
b : lacking covering : naked
c : not protected : susceptible to hurt <raw emotions>
4
a : lacking experience or understanding : green <a raw recruit>
b (1) : marked by absence of refinements (2) : vulgar, coarse <raw language>
c : not tempered : unbridled <raw power>
5
: disagreeably damp or cold <a raw winter day>
— raw·ly adverb

*Honey*

1
a : a sweet viscid material elaborated out of the nectar of flowers in the honey sac of various bees
b : a sweet fluid resembling honey that is collected or elaborated by various insects


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Mmmm, give me some _vulgar_, .....


OK, I _was _going to string some of those words together in an _alternative _description of raw local honey. :lookout: Then _somehow _I heard _Barry _starting to speak ...


----------



## Jim Giles

The idea behind eating honey is kind of like gradually vaccinating the body against allergens, a process called *immunotherapy*. Honey contains a variety of the same pollen spores that give allergy sufferers so much trouble when flowers and grasses are in bloom. Introducing these spores into the body in small amounts by eating honey should make the body accustomed to their presence and decrease the chance an immune system response like the release of histamine will occur [source: AAFP]. Since the concentration of pollen spores found in honey is low -- compared to, say, sniffing a flower directly -- then the production of antibodies shouldn't trigger symptoms similar to an allergic reaction. Ideally, the honey-eater won't have any reaction at all.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/dis...rgy-treatments/local-honey-for-allergies2.htm

*Immunotherapy* is a medical term defined as the "treatment of disease by inducing, enhancing, or suppressing an immune response".[SUP][1][/SUP] Immunotherapies designed to elicit or amplify an immune response are classified as *activation immunotherapies,* while immunotherapies that reduce or suppress are classified as *suppression immunotherapies.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunotherapy

Just as with a flu shot which contains a *SMALL* amount of the flu and you get the flu shot prior to the onset of flu season. Same with allergies, i.e., you start immunizing yourself with *SMALL* amounts of the pollen that are contained in local honey prior to the spring.


----------



## TalonRedding

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Mmmm, give me some _vulgar_, .....
> 
> 
> OK, I _was _going to string some of those words together in an _alternative _description of raw local honey. :lookout: Then _somehow _I heard _Barry _starting to speak ...


Lol...don't even go there. :no:


----------



## Nabber86

Jim Giles said:


> Introducing these spores into the body in small amounts by eating honey should make the body accustomed to their presence and decrease the chance an immune system response like the release of histamine will occur [source: AAFP]. Since the concentration of pollen spores found in honey is low -- compared to, say, sniffing a flower directly -- then the production of antibodies shouldn't trigger symptoms similar to an allergic reaction. Ideally, the honey-eater won't have any reaction at all.


Good grief:

Now ask yourself: WHEN YOU ARE ALREADY TAKING A LARGE DOSE OF POLLEN, HOW COULD INGESTING A FEW ADDITIONAL GRAINS OF POLLEN IN A TEASPOON OF HONEY RESULT IN A SMALLER DOSE????

Instead of a heap of copypasta, provide your own logical argument. 




Jim Giles;1042706[B said:


> ]Immunotherapy[/B] is a medical term defined as the "treatment of disease by inducing, enhancing, or suppressing an immune response".[SUP][1][/SUP] Immunotherapies designed to elicit or amplify an immune response are classified as *activation immunotherapies,* while immunotherapies that reduce or suppress are classified as *suppression immunotherapies.*
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunotherapy
> 
> Just as with a flu shot which contains a *SMALL* amount of the flu and you get the flu shot prior to the onset of flu season. Same with allergies, i.e., you start immunizing yourself with *SMALL* amounts of the pollen that are contained in local honey prior to the spring.


Well at least you got that partially correct. However, this portion of your post would be completely out of context with regard to my comment about honey curing allergies and you are not adding anything of value to the conversation.

My chain of logic is pretty straight forward. If you want to proceed with the discussion _in the context of honey curing allergies_, tell me in plain simple terms (ELI5) why you think that honey cures allergies?


----------



## Mike Gillmore

Nabber,
You don't start this at the height of the pollen season. It's started in the off season, say Nov- Feb. By exposing the body to "small" amounts of pollen, well before exposure to the large doses, your body has time to build up immunity.

This is similar to bee sting reaction. If you never allow yourself to be stung through the season and then suddenly one day you are stung 5 times, a severe sting reaction will probably take place. If you do allow yourself to be stung periodically throughout the year your body will usually have diminished reaction to the stings over time.


----------



## Jim Giles

Mike Gillmore said:


> My daughter didn't need a peer reviewed study, and neither do my customers.


Indeed. They are authored increasingly by incompetent, corrupt, overpaid bureaucrats. All too willing to be bought off by a Monsanto. No integrity, character or honor let alone rigorous science.


----------



## Nabber86

Mike Gillmore said:


> Nabber,
> You don't start this at the height of the pollen season. It's started in the off season, say Nov- Feb. By exposing the body to "small" amounts of pollen, well before exposure to the large doses, your body has time to build up immunity.
> 
> This is similar to bee sting reaction. If you never allow yourself to be stung through the season and then suddenly one day you are stung 5 times, a severe sting reaction will probably take place. If you do allow yourself to be stung periodically throughout the year your body will usually have diminished reaction to the stings over time.



So your are saying that you have to re-start every year for this to be effective? I dont think that is how immunotherapy works. At least when I took allergy shots, the process took several years. There was no tapering off in the winter and ramping back up in the early spring. It was steadily decreasing doses. No up and down.


----------



## Nabber86

Jim Giles said:


> Just as with a flu shot which contains a *SMALL* amount of the flu and you get the flu shot prior to the onset of flu season. Same with allergies, i.e., you start immunizing yourself with *SMALL* amounts of the pollen that are contained in local honey prior to the spring.


Anyone else catch the obvious here?


----------



## Jim Giles

Remedial reading instruction


----------



## Barry

Nabber86 said:


> At least when I took allergy shots, the process took several years.


We can fairly compare allergy shots to ingestion of honey?


----------



## Nabber86

Barry said:


> We can fairly compare allergy shots to ingestion of honey?


 The premise of the posts by J. Giles (Linking immunotherapy to honey ingestion) suggests so. However, the route of ingestion presents a couple of considerations:


People who believe in a "natural" regimen are typically opposed to modern medicine, especially shots (shots represent the unknown and are scary).

Shots provides a way to carefully control the effective dose. This is a base concept in immunotherapy (control dosage to build the immunity, as opposed to periodic ingestion of completely unknown amounts of pollen via oral ingestion).

Stomach acid destroys, to various degrees, the active ingredients in the oral dosage.

Absorption of the oral dose in the intestines varies greatly form person to person and depends on what else has recently been ingested and several other metabolic factors. This compounds the problem of unknown effective dosage due to stomach acid. These are the main reasons why vaccines are administered IM and allergy shots are given by SQ. 

That said, I don't believe allergy shots are comparable to the oral ingestion of honey (I think I am agreeing with you here). Allergy shots are a carefully controlled dosage with predictable effects. Eating honey is completely uncontrolled method of immunotherapy.


----------



## Nabber86

Jim Giles said:


> Remedial reading instruction


Context much?


----------



## Mike Gillmore

Nabber86 said:


> So your are saying that you have to re-start every year for this to be effective?


No, I don't recall saying that. I just stated that it must be "started" months in advance of heavy exposure. It continues year round. In my daughters case it worked. I can't explain it, and it doesn't make sense to debate it. As I mentioned earlier, I was very skeptical myself and thought it was a bunch of hype until I saw the results under my own roof. And I don't think I'm the only one. Empirical evidence is good enough for me. I don't need to understand how a power plant operates to have lights in my house, I just flip the switch.


----------



## Nabber86

Mike Gillmore said:


> Empirical evidence is good enough for me. I don't need to understand how a power plant operates to have lights in my house, I just flip the switch.


And that is a completely valid approach. It works in your case for whatever reasons. I will not argue with your personal experience. 

When people try to use pseudoscience and back their assertions up with copypasta, there is a problem. That is really the only main point that I am trying to make in this thread.


----------



## Nabber86

Jim Giles said:


> Just as with a flu shot which contains a *SMALL* amount of the flu and you get the flu shot prior to the onset of flu season. Same with allergies, i.e., you start immunizing yourself with *SMALL* amounts of the pollen that are contained in local honey prior to the spring.



Again. Did Anyone else catch the obvious here?

Hint: the concept of irony?


----------



## Acebird

There is anecdotal evidence that ingesting honey gives relief to some people. Scientist have not found the connection yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist it just means we lack the knowledge. If there is no monetary gain to find the answer the likely hood is it will not be found.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

It's my feeling that there are way too many variables to conduct a scientific study resulting in any meaningful conclusions. 

Each individual reacts in a different way to different pollens. The range spans from an occasional sneeze linked to one specific source of pollen, to full blown allergy symptoms to every type of air-born pollen they are exposed to. 

Depending upon when the honey was harvested and how much blending is being done, the honey source may or may not contain pollen grains that are triggering allergic reactions in individuals. And bees may not ever collect pollen types that some have reactions to, so the honey will not help them.

Due to so many variables and unknowns I usually tell my customers that my local honey helps "some" people in the area with their allergies, and it's worth trying to see if it might work. A lot of them keep coming back, so it's either working or they drink a lot of tea.


----------



## Acebird

Not all allergies are caused by pollen some are food. I would say a lot are food because of what is in the food today. The relief could be food related. Many, many people get relief from allergies just by going organic or growing their own.


----------



## Jim Giles

Acebird said:


> If there is no monetary gain to find the answer the likely hood is it will not be found.


Precisely. That's the world we live in. Real food is better for you than processed food. We live increasingly in a toxic world where the uber rich rule. Common decency and commonsense are becoming less common. When the honey bee is suffering as it is and the uber rich control the toxins killing the honey bee which threatens our food supply? Pretty deep water.

But there is no scientific peer reviewed evidence that insecticides/poison kills honey bees either, is there? I have personally experienced a very large die off of my bees and I've observed their crazy circular death spin obviously poisoned. It's not theory with me. Thus my contempt for the lack of more promotion for local raw honey and lack of opposition to insecticides.


----------



## Jim Giles

Mike Gillmore said:


> It's my feeling that there are way too many variables to conduct a scientific study resulting in any meaningful conclusions.


Mike, We've split the atom. How hard can it be to sort out the health benefits of local raw honey? We don't lack for ability. We lack for leadership. And we suffer needlessly for the benefit of those who rule over us.

Imagine a Manhattan Project for the honey bee and our food supply.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Many, many people get relief from allergies just by going organic or growing their own.


Or taking a placebo.

I heard about a study on migraine headaches, medication and placebos. People in the study who took a placebo, even when they knew it was a placebo, experienced relief as often as when they took the medicine.

Our brains are pretty powerful at times.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

Jim Giles said:


> How hard can it be to sort out the health benefits of local raw honey?


I agree, it "could" be done if the will was there. But there is no monetary incentive to pursue it. After all we have Claritin, Zyrtec, and physician visits for allergy shots. Problem solved.


----------



## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> Or taking a placebo.
> 
> I heard about a study on migraine headaches, medication and placebos. People in the study who took a placebo, even when they knew it was a placebo, experienced relief as often as when they took the medicine.
> 
> Our brains are pretty powerful at times.


Do you sell local raw honey? If not, what kind of honey do you sell?


----------



## Jim Giles

Mike Gillmore said:


> After all we have Claritin, Zyrtec, and physician visits for allergy shots. Problem solved.


Bull's eye.


----------



## sqkcrk

I sell honey that my bees produce in stores near by and far away. From my house, in stores as close as 4 miles away and as far as 100 miles away. My label says "HONEY from the bees of Squeak Creek Apiaries". Below that the weight. Below that the address and phone number.

I guess that's local, but I don't try to convince anyone of that. I let them draw their own conclusions, if they want to.

Some is RAW, most ain't. The only one that I sell as RAW is labeled RAW.


----------



## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> Some is RAW, most ain't.


That's what I figgered. I appreciate your honesty.


----------



## sqkcrk

Yer welcome.


----------



## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> There is anecdotal evidence that ingesting honey gives relief to some people. Scientist have not found the connection yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist it just means we lack the knowledge. If there is no monetary gain to find the answer the likely hood is it will not be found.


I completely agree witht the first sentence, however the term "anecdotal evidence" is an oxymoron. Anecdotal "accounts" or "reports" is the proper way to phrase the term.

And the first part of the second sentence, if you replace "_the_ connection" with "_a_ connection". You don't proceed assuming that a positive connection to the investigation is a priori, you seek to prove or disprove a connection without preconceived notions (or maybe that should be _emotions_) to the outcome.

I agree with the last part of the second sentence.


----------



## sqkcrk

But what about the party of the first part?


----------



## Nabber86

I concur with the gentleman from New York. I love parties.


----------



## melliferal

I disagree with you twice:



Acebird said:


> There is anecdotal evidence that ingesting honey gives relief to some people. Scientist have not found the connection yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist it just means we lack the knowledge.


We do have the knowledge; the connection in this case is referred to as the "placebo effect".



Acebird said:


> Not all allergies are caused by pollen some are food. I would say a lot are food because of what is in the food today. The relief could be food related.


I agree that a lot of allergies are food related; I disagree that they are because of what's in food "today" (as opposed to some time before when "that" wasn't in the food). Milk allergies, for instance, are caused by a bad reaction to lactic acid, which is a natural component of milk, not something only lately added. What's generally known as a "peanut allergy" is actually an allergy to peanut _oil_ (and therefore anything with peanut oil in it) - also naturally occurring. Same with strawberries, that allergy linked with a very particular (natural) protein that turns the strawberries red as they ripen - interestingly, people with strawberry allergies have no reaction to certain strains of strawberry that do not turn red. But in any case, food allergies tend to be caused by things inherent to the specific ingredients no matter where they come from - so if you're allergic to peanuts, eating peanuts will kill you whether they come from those ultra-processed sandwich-crackers at the supermarket or raw from Ernie Earthfriendly's Save-The-World Organic Peanut Farm down the road.


----------



## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> Not all allergies are caused by pollen some are food. I would say a lot are food because of what is in the food today. The relief could be food related. Many, many people get relief from allergies just by going organic or growing their own.



Everyone that I have talked to about honey and allergies is talking bout seasonal allergies due to pollen, not food allergies such as peanuts. This isn't what was being talked about.


----------



## Acebird

Until you go to a specialist and get tested for what they have test for (they can't test for everything) you do not know what you are allergic to.

If I eat, let me double it ... if we eat peppers or tomatoes from the supermarket we get a serious heartburn attack in less then an hour. If we eat them from our own garden we don't. Tomatoes from the super market also give me mouth sores. Tomatoes from my garden do not. I will say it is because what is in the food today and not some placebo effect. You can believe what ever you want. I think when it comes to your immune system it is a whole bunch of things that finally breaks the camels back and makes it go haywire. There is an allarming increase in allergies and diseases like celiac today that were not present in the 50's and 60's. Something is causing it. Maybe a lack of breast milk.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Could be the lack of fire retardants.


----------



## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> Something is causing it. Maybe a lack of breast milk.



I thought we were talking about honey.

Are you saying that lack of breast milk causes sores on your mouth when you eat store bought tomatoes? 


:scratch:


----------



## melliferal

Acebird said:


> There is an allarming increase in allergies and diseases like celiac today that were not present in the 50's and 60's. Something is causing it. Maybe a lack of breast milk.


There _may_ be a larger percentage of people around with certain kinds of allergies, and diseases like celiac. But it's a jumped conclusion to make a connection between a higher percentage of these diseases, and something happening recently to food that exacerbates these conditions or causes them to spread. There are plenty of other reasons with much larger effects.

Celiac, for instance, was identified as far back as the late 1800's; but you didn't see a lot of it in the general population because it wasn't known specifically that wheat is what caused the reaction (wheat gluten, precisely); and therefore, most children born with celiac died rather young because their parents continued to feed them bread without knowing any better. The wheat connection wasn't discovered until the 40's - once it was, and children with celiac were taught what not to eat, those children suddenly started living to adulthood more often, and so the percentage of the population living with celiac disease increased. Not only that, but as was later discovered in the 60's, celiac - like many food allergies, I might add - is a hereditary disease. Meaning that as more children with celiac were finally able to live to adulthood, more of them were able to contribute the genes causing the disease to the population pool.

The real reason many acute diseases seemed to become more prevalent toward the mid 20th century: medical advances.

- led to better understanding of diseases and what caused them
- due to above, new treatments were developed that lowered mortality of these diseases, especially child mortality
- CPR and cardiac defibrillation were invented in the 60's, along with much of the technologies and medicines that allow ambulances and other emergency responders to actually care for acute medical issues like allergic reactions instead of only trauma and injuries, meaning people were much more likely to survive their first anaphylactic reactions to an allergen, so now more deathly-allergic people are still alive than ever before.


----------



## Acebird

melliferal said:


> The real reason many acute diseases seemed to become more prevalent toward the mid 20th century: medical advances.


What are these medical advances? People die from everything that they died from before. They get on a chemical regiment for the rest of their lives which basically sucks. All the while the solution is simple. Diet and exercise. They don't pass on any genes because they are shooting blanks if they shoot at all.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> What are these medical advances? 

See the rest of post #138. Right below where you took that quote. 

Surely you can remember when there were not EMS units scattered around the city/countryside. If you had a serious immediate problem - you died. Now you often get to a hospital, and get patched up. Then you live to get older and maybe get cancer. Cancer has always been around, and _some _people always did die from it. Now _more _people live long enough to get cancer. 

No matter what, you are still going to die of *something*. What is your _prefered _way to die? :scratch:


----------



## TalonRedding

If I get to the point where I cannot make a trek through the woods and hills anymore, and if I am threatened to be put in a nursing home, I have honestly thought about flying somewhere within the Alaska Peninsula during salmon spawn, steal a Brown Bear's catch and punch that bear in the face! I would let the bear do the rest. What a way to go, right back to the earth and I get to help the bear out! I may put that in my will.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> I may put that in my will.

I doubt you will be able to find an executor [of your will] who will agree to punch a bear in the face!  

If you want to go that way, best to initiate the ... _process _... while you are still mobile. :lookout:

:ws:


----------



## TalonRedding

I didn't say I would be helpless!! Gosh!  Don't rob me of a glorious death! inch:

I'm off topic....my bad. t:


----------



## sqkcrk

Well Talon, wills are usually executed after a person is dead. So putting that in your will is a silly thing to do, don't ya think?


----------



## TalonRedding

sqkcrk said:


> Well Talon, wills are usually executed after a person is dead. So putting that in your will is a silly thing to do, don't ya think?


This is true. What if I'm brain dead though? :scratch:
How about that? From local honey to death and wills. :lpf: we are a dry bunch!!!


----------



## sqkcrk

What makes you think you aren't already?  The fact that you can think and type?:lpf:


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Perhaps what you need instead is to set up a _medical power of attorney_. Then decisions can be made on your behalf if you are _impaired _before you are _actually _expired.  But I still think that there will be some difficulty finding someone to agree to the 'punch a bear in the face' part. 


:lookout:Best to just eat more _raw, local honey_ and avoid all those nasties in the first place. :lookout:


.


----------



## TalonRedding

Oooooooooh. Burn! I had that one coming! inch:


----------



## TalonRedding

Rader, right on.:thumbsup:


----------



## sqkcrk

Rader Sidetrack said:


> :lookout:Best to just eat more _raw, local honey_ avoid all those nasties in the first place. :lookout:


Unless he is allergic to honey. Something no one has brought up yet.

What if one is allergic to honey? Do you take honey for that?


----------



## TalonRedding

This would probably be a good time to clarify that I was being a bit facetious with that claim.


----------



## sqkcrk

No. Really?


----------



## TalonRedding

Really


----------



## sqkcrk

No way.


----------



## TalonRedding

Way. 
You now have the floor for the last word.


----------



## sqkcrk

Shwang


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > What is your _prefered _way to die? :scratch:




In my sleep thinking about a couple of thirty year old's if I really had a choice.


----------



## Jim Giles

Sorting through the off topic chaff in this thread which is standard fare in discussion forums but more suspicious in a forum presumed to be comprised of above average IQ folk, excluding the OP, where an issue of national security, i.e., the food supply is on the line implicating a multi-billion dollar corporation, Monsanto and casting suspicion upon the very government we live under. And because some possibly feign ignorance of not only their state law in regard to labeling their honey but also in understanding the English language, to wit, the definition of thread hijacking:

When a person starts a posting on a message board, or forum, or Facebook, that others are able to comment on, that original posting and the comments on it are called a thread. A thread hijacking occurs when one or more individuals commenting on the original posting, go off topic, creating a separate conversation. This is rude, and bad internet etiquette. If people want to discuss a different topic, they should start their own thread.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=thread hijacking

In some ways I miss my days on the football field when we would suit up and communicate with one another via ‘licks.’ The pecking order was clear. Everyone knew their role and there was no time for ‘trash talk.’ 

The cream of this thread thus far and a proposed ‘declaration’:

What is local raw honey? 

Heretofore, an official definition has not been provided by the United States government which allows the importation of fake foreign honey:

"Food-safety experts have found that much of the honey sold in the United States isn't actually honey, but a concoction of corn or rice syrup, malt sweeteners or "jiggery" (cheap, unrefined sugar), plus a small amount of genuine honey, according to Wired UK.

Worse, some honey — much of which is imported from Asia — has been found to contain toxins like lead and other heavy metals, as well as drugs like chloramphenicol, an antibiotic, according to a Department of Justice news release."

http://www.livescience.com/28039-honey-laundering.html

The above is a draft declaration only. Lets refine and perfect it and then promote it. Let’s also get back on topic and drop the chaff and ad hominem.


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## Rader Sidetrack

The proper response is quite simple:

Eat your _own _honey.​



That might work for Ace's situation also.


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## Jim Giles

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The proper response is quite simple:
> 
> Eat your _own _honey.​
> That might work for Ace's situation also.


Admirable but nothing is simple. Everything is complex and made so through deception and fraud. Your simple response begs the question, 'What do you mean?' Why? How? Who?


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## Rader Sidetrack

You apparently have been keeping bees for several years, and hopefully have harvested some honey. Presumably your honey is 'local', by virtually _any _definition. Ergo, 'eat your own honey'.


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## Jim Giles

Rader Sidetrack said:


> You apparently have been keeping bees for several years, and hopefully have harvested some honey. Presumably your honey is 'local', by virtually _any _definition. Ergo, 'eat your own honey'.


Upon more reflection, I like your simple advocacy and think it merits a sentence of the proposed declaration:

Local Raw Honey:

Heretofore, an official definition of 'local raw honey' has not been provided by the United States government which allows the importation of fake foreign honey.

Eat your _own_ honey.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Works for me .... 



A number of states' Depts of Ag, in cooperation with statewide beekeeping clubs, are continuing to participate in a sort of "_Johnny Appleseed_" type program - spreading _LOCAL _beehives, and hopefully _LOCAL HONEY,_ among the populace. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Here is info on the TN program:

http://blountbees.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/tba-program-offers-equipment-grants-for-new-beekeepers/
The page is written for 2012, but in TN at least the program continued through 2013 and into 2014.


opcorn:


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## Jim Giles

Rader Sidetrack said:


> A number of states' Depts of Ag, in cooperation with statewide beekeeping clubs, are continuing to participate in a sort of "_Johnny Appleseed_" type program - spreading _LOCAL _beehives, and hopefully _LOCAL HONEY,_ among the populace. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
> 
> Here is info on the TN program:
> 
> http://blountbees.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/tba-program-offers-equipment-grants-for-new-beekeepers/
> The page is written for 2012, but in TN at least the program continued through 2013 and into 2014.


Excellent. Clearly every state department of agriculture in the nation should also maintain bee-yards strategically throughout the entire state, a de facto strategic defense initiative to monitor varroa mites, hive beetles and most importantly INSECTICIDES. It would be so very easy and not very expensive at all. In fact, they could pay for themselves and be a revenue source. They do not implement such logical responses for obvious financial reasons which are criminal. They have a sworn legal duty that they are in criminal violation of and merit prosecution. The lobbyists, especially Monsanto and those who cave to the payoffs should similarly be indicted and prosecuted.

From: Jim Giles
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 8:59 AM
To: 'Jeff Harris'
Subject: Hive Grant program for new beekeepers

Dear Dr. Harris,

Do any hive grant programs currently exist in Mississippi similar to the one in Tennessee? See http://blountbees.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/tba-program-offers-equipment-grants-for-new-beekeepers/ And who would be the responsible state government executive to implement such a program if one does not currently exist?

Best regards,

Jim Giles


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## TalonRedding

An official definition sounds appealing to us Beekeepers, but the consumer's decision has hardly even been touched on at all in this thread. I think most of us can agree that the majority of consumers buy according to their financial and physical convenience. Also to note, if you have looked at the USDA's latest honey report, http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf, we export FAR more than we import. To make the story short, an official definition would create a HUGE shortage of "real" honey for American consumers. This in turn would drive prices extremely high, IMHO too high for the average consumer. At that point, the consumer has an "as long as it tastes like honey" mentality, and favors the "fake honey" option over the real honey. It fits the financial and physical convenience scenario I previously described. Additionally, I do not see how American Beekeepers could fill the shortage gap. To me, it all boils down to the consumer's decision process. "Organic" food is twice as much at the store, and the VAST majority of people I know do not buy it because of that fact, even though they know it is probably healthier. Organic has an official definition, and it will probably be the eventual undoing of that whole movement. It drives prices through the roof. Just my opinion. It's not that I'm against real honey or organic foods, it's just I think there are a lot of short sighted proposals for those markets and business models.


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## Jim Giles

TalonRedding said:


> An official definition sounds appealing to us Beekeepers, but the consumer's decision has hardly even been touched on at all in this thread. I think most of us can agree that the majority of consumers buy according to their financial and physical convenience. Also to note, if you have looked at the USDA's latest honey report, http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf, we export FAR more than we import. To make the story short, an official definition would create a HUGE shortage of "real" honey for American consumers. This in turn would drive prices extremely high, IMHO too high for the average consumer. At that point, the consumer has an "as long as it tastes like honey" mentality, and favors the "fake honey" option over the real honey. It fits the financial and physical convenience scenario I previously described. Additionally, I do not see how American Beekeepers could fill the shortage gap. To me, it all boils down to the consumer's decision process. "Organic" food is twice as much at the store, and the VAST majority of people I know do not buy it because of that fact, even though they know it is probably healthier. Organic has an official definition, and it will probably be the eventual undoing of that whole movement. It drives prices through the roof. Just my opinion. It's not that I'm against real honey or organic foods, it's just I think there are a lot of short sighted proposals for those markets and business models.


Most excellent!! Time to feed my cows but I will be giving your reply a lot of thought.


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## Acebird

The cost of food doubles. Big deal. The cost of health care goes up 10 times. Save yourself 800% increases and eat organic.


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## Jim Giles

TalonRedding said:


> Also to note, if you have looked at the USDA's latest honey report, http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf, we export FAR more than we import.


According to the USDA's report you cite above, year to date (as of the October 2013 report) the U.S. imported 263,171,806 pounds of honey while exporting only 8,331,276 pounds of honey. Note that I converted kilograms to pounds. We are importing far more honey than we are exporting. Rounding down, we are importing about 260 million pounds while exporting only 8 million pounds.

Here again most Americans live under the tyrannic rule of an uber rich elite that is only getting richer and richer while most Americans are getting poorer and poorer while the cheap plastic crap on Wal-Mart shelves now includes toxic fake honey and Monsanto kills off what remains of the U.S. bee population.

And it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. 'War on Terror?' Yeah, there should be. Domestic terror right here in the U.S. by our own gummint.


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## TalonRedding

We IMPORT more than we EXPORT! That's what I meant to say. I don't know how I got that backwards in my original post. My apologies. I read that three times before I posted it, and I still missed something. :doh:


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## melliferal

Acebird said:


> What are these medical advances? People die from everything that they died from before. They get on a chemical regiment for the rest of their lives which basically sucks. All the while the solution is simple. Diet and exercise. They don't pass on any genes because they are shooting blanks if they shoot at all.


No, that's not true at all. People with celiac or peanut allergies don't need a chemical regimen for the rest of their lives, they just need to not eat those foods. The discovered fact that they need to not eat those foods, as well as the technology to save their lives if they're accidentally exposed, are the kinds of medical advances I'm talking about. Those people are now living longer, and contributing to the gene pool, which means more people around with those diseases than there used to be.


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## Jim Giles

TalonRedding said:


> An official definition sounds appealing to us Beekeepers, but the consumer's decision has hardly even been touched on at all in this thread. I think most of us can agree that the majority of consumers buy according to their financial and physical convenience. Also to note, if you have looked at the USDA's latest honey report, http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf, we [import] FAR more than we [export]. To make the story short, an official definition would create a HUGE shortage of "real" honey for American consumers. This in turn would drive prices extremely high, IMHO too high for the average consumer. At that point, the consumer has an "as long as it tastes like honey" mentality, and favors the "fake honey" option over the real honey. It fits the financial and physical convenience scenario I previously described. Additionally, I do not see how American Beekeepers could fill the shortage gap. To me, it all boils down to the consumer's decision process. "Organic" food is twice as much at the store, and the VAST majority of people I know do not buy it because of that fact, even though they know it is probably healthier. Organic has an official definition, and it will probably be the eventual undoing of that whole movement. It drives prices through the roof. Just my opinion. It's not that I'm against real honey or organic foods, it's just I think there are a lot of short sighted proposals for those markets and business models.


Since an official definition is not in the offing an honest and accurate definition trumps phony hype as your organic analogy so aptly illustrates. Organic has been rendered meaningless and I view organic as nothing but corporate hype.

As a honey producer, the product you wish to package is a personal choice and I assume most honey producers in this country could care less about local raw honey. Instead, they only care about maximizing profits.

Honey consumers are going to vary as well in regard to the standards they bring to the table and what they are willing to pay for.

I am promoting local raw honey because that is what I sell and I want to promote it as superior to any other honey on the market. The best honey is local raw honey. It will not be appreciated by some or maybe most at this point but I envision it becoming the standard again one day in the future when the current regime is ousted and America is put first again along with her honey bees. And I don’t apologize for the premium prices that I ask for my honey. I’m doing a lot of sweating as I don’t employ anyone else.



TalonRedding said:


> Additionally, I do not see how American Beekeepers could fill the shortage gap.


I don't know this to be the case anymore than you know it to be the case. It's an assumption and a big one on your part. I assume just the opposite given how tiny the beekeeping community is here in Mississippi. And the more or less monopolistic control of the market by the big honey producers in this country is another major problem. They like things just the way they are. I think we are more than capable to fulfill all of our domestic demand for honey and then some especially if the toxic fake foreign honey was reported on extensively. National media coverage which will never happen but if it did would dry up all importation of honey. But it is still very powerful on a local level as each beekeeper so informs honey consumers. This raises another question in regard to honey vendors out there selling honey as their own when it's not. What's to keep a honey vendor from buying toxic fake foreign honey and selling it as his own at the farmers market?

Consumers make decisions based on their knowledge level which varies greatly. My target market is the above average consumer. Some consumers will continue to eat fast food, get fat and die early.


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## Nabber86

I think that we should petition the internet to amend Godwin's Law to include Monsanto.


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## jim lyon

Jim Giles said:


> And the more or less monopolistic control of the market by the big honey producers in this country is another major problem.


.......now there's one I've never heard before.


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## TalonRedding

> I assume just the opposite given how tiny the beekeeping community is here in Mississippi.


Unless I misunderstand you, you have reiterated my point concerning supplying the shortage by stating how tiny the beekeeping community is. In order for current American Beekeepers to fill the gap, they would have to at least double in number or double their operations. Another option would be to charge twice the current amount for their product, which is where the organic movement is in currently. 
I too will advertise my honey to be local raw honey, but I am saying that the definition is left to the consumer, not the producers.


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## sqkcrk

Jim Giles,
In all of your years in beekeeping how many pounds of honey have you produced and added to the National Production?

I think you are somewhat nieve if you think that mearly keeping foreign fake honey out of the US that US beekeepers will be able to fill the US honey demand. It isn't really this simple, but it is a matter of economics. If US beekeepers, and it would take Commercial Beekeepers which you seem to disdain, could produce as much honey as is needed they would have to be willing to sell it as cheaply as honey imported from Canada, Argentina, and Brazil. Do you really think they would or should?

Squeak Creek Apiaries : Part of the Vast Honey Monopoly Consortium of Professional Beekeepers


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## cg3

Nabber86 said:


> amend Godwin's Law


3 points!


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## Jim Giles

TalonRedding said:


> Unless I misunderstand you, you have reiterated my point concerning supplying the shortage by stating how tiny the beekeeping community is. In order for current American Beekeepers to fill the gap, they would have to at least double in number or double their operations. Another option would be to charge twice the current amount for their product, which is where the organic movement is in currently.
> I too will advertise my honey to be local raw honey, but I am saying that the definition is left to the consumer, not the producers.


The needed reform in our foreign trade policy cannot and will not occur over night. The same could be said of all the other industries that have been off shored. The same foreign trade policy that has gutted our middle and working classes can and ultimately will be reversed.

I sell my local raw honey for a premium price (3X) way beyond that 'other stuff.' Be it toxic fake foreign honey or 'processed honey.'

Organic is fake and phony. Raw is real. 

A consumer is free to choose and a producer is free to produce. As to definitions, I suppose the exchange/sale will confirm an agreed upon definition. Those who buy my local raw honey agree with me on price and definition.


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## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> Jim Giles,
> In all of your years in beekeeping how many pounds of honey have you produced and added to the National Production?


I have a staggering honey crop total of 3 years:

2011: 600 pounds
2012: 1200 pounds
2013: 2400 pounds

And before that years of toil and tribulation listening to pompous PhD idiots lecture about bee BS. I have 100 hives and 200 nucs. My goal for 2014 is 12,000 pounds. I'm in a league of my own. I'm sure it's puny compared to your operation but I bet I've got you beat hands down on how much I get for a pound of my honey. How much do you get per pound of honey?



sqkcrk said:


> I think you are somewhat nieve if you think that mearly keeping foreign fake honey out of the US that US beekeepers will be able to fill the US honey demand. It isn't really this simple, but it is a matter of economics.


Not over night but in time without question and it's not a matter of economics. It's strictly a matter of politics and greed. It's that simple.




sqkcrk said:


> If US beekeepers, and it would take Commercial Beekeepers which you seem to disdain, could produce as much honey as is needed they would have to be willing to sell it as cheaply as honey imported from Canada, Argentina, and Brazil. Do you really think they would or should?


If the toxic fake foreign honey were banned as it clearly should be then U.S. honey producers could set their prices in competition with one another and at prices clearly in need of raising.


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## TalonRedding

> Organic is fake and phony. Raw is real.


This does not correlate with your occupation (organic farmer). What point are you trying to make? Perhaps I'm just confused. I do agree though about some policy changes needed. However, that's another thread for another time.


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## sqkcrk

Jim,
Get back to us in 5 years and let's see who is still in business and if you still hold the same views or not. I don't care how old you are, you're just a kid.


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## Jim Giles

TalonRedding said:


> This does not correlate with your occupation (organic farmer). What point are you trying to make? Perhaps I'm just confused. I do agree though about some policy changes needed. However, that's another thread for another time.


I once described myself as an organic farmer but no longer. My point? Raw unprocessed food is the best especially when you go to the farm to pick it up where you can inspect things. Corporate grocery store food is increasingly crap and dangerous.


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## sqkcrk

Jim Giles said:


> I bet I've got you beat hands down on how much I get for a pound of my honey. How much do you get per pound of honey?
> 
> 
> 
> Not over night but in time without question and it's not a matter of economics. It's strictly a matter of politics and greed. It's that simple.


How much do I get for my honey? Show me yours first.

Politics and greed? Whose? Yours? If you are getting so much more than me for a pound of honey, who is being greedy?


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## cg3

Jim Giles said:


> I'm in a league of my own.


I can think of a couple...


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## sqkcrk

Jim Giles said:


> I once described myself as an organic farmer but no longer. My point? Raw unprocessed food is the best especially when you go to the farm to pick it up where you can inspect things. Corporate grocery store food is increasingly crap and dangerous.


Then update your profile. If you aren't an organic farmer now, were you one when you wrote your own profile? Which is the truth? Which is fake?


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## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> Jim,
> Get back to us in 5 years and let's see who is still in business and if you still hold the same views or not. I don't care how old you are, you're just a kid.


I like competing against people who underestimate me. Kid or not, I'm sticking with local raw honey come Hell or high water.

I hope you will not deprive me of your beekeeping knowledge on actual beekeeping when other topics arise other than packaging and marketing.


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## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> Then update your profile. If you aren't an organic farmer now, were you one when you wrote your own profile? Which is the truth? Which is fake?


Profile updated. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I had forgotten I had posted that but that was years ago when I did consider myself an organic farmer. Things change.


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## TalonRedding

I wouldn't make out commercial Beekeepers to be "Nazis" of beekeeping. That's treading on thin ice I would think.


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## sqkcrk

Jim Giles said:


> I hope you will not deprive me of your beekeeping knowledge on actual beekeeping when other topics arise other than packaging and marketing.


If one isn't worth anything to you I don't see how the other would be. I have been doing the latter almost as long as the former. I've already been through the hell and high water.

What are you really angry about?

Sorry Charlie. Fell off the wagon already. Can't help myself.


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## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> How much do I get for my honey? Show me yours first.
> 
> Politics and greed? Whose? Yours? If you are getting so much more than me for a pound of honey, who is being greedy?


Given my robust disclosure thus far I think it's your turn to go first. My greed? Get real. I live in a trailer.


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## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> If one isn't worth anything to you I don't see how the other would be. I have been doing the latter almost as long as the former. I've already been through the hell and high water.
> 
> What are you really angry about?
> 
> Sorry Charlie. Fell off the wagon already. Can't help myself.


Too cryptic for me. I can tell you are a philosopher king. I'm just a simple direct dummy.


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## Acebird

TalonRedding said:


> We IMPORT more than we EXPORT! That's what I meant to say. I don't know how I got that backwards in my original post. My apologies. I read that three times before I posted it, and I still missed something. :doh:


You mind was traveling at the speed of light and your fingers missed it with the keyboard. It can happen.


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## TalonRedding

> You mind was traveling at the speed of light and your fingers missed it with the keyboard. It can happen.


What can I say? I read so many of your posts, it must have rubbed off! 

Good fun


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## cg3

Acebird said:


> You mind was traveling at the speed of light and your fingers missed it with the keyboard. It can happen.


Ding! 3 points for Ace.


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## cg3

sqkcrk said:


> Sorry Charlie. Fell off the wagon already. Can't help myself.


I hear you. The farce is strong in this one.


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## sqkcrk

Jim Giles said:


> Given my robust disclosure thus far I think it's your turn to go first. My greed? Get real. I live in a trailer.


Aww, pobre' sito.

Look it up. I have shared my price list many times. You're young. You need to work for it.


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## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> Aww, pobre' sito.
> 
> Look it up. I have shared my price list many times. You're young. You need to work for it.


While young my ego makes up for housing, etc. and then some. It matters not to me what your prices are. I would be more curious as to how far you actually are from the Big Apple. I once traveled regularly to upstate NY to pick apples with a long legged girl from Bronxville.


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## Rader Sidetrack

God (and Google) helps those that help themselves .... :lookout:


opcorn:


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## sqkcrk

Yeah, what Rader wrote.


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## TalonRedding

Rader Sidetrack said:


> God (and Google) helps those that help themselves .... :lookout:
> 
> 
> opcorn:


......and Advanced Search.


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## TalonRedding

Yikes.....


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## Jim Giles

Perhaps I'm in the presence of that much alluded to uber rich elite and a salute is expected.

Don't hold your breath.

Google is no friend of mine. As for God, I'm sure he disapproves of Google.


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## sqkcrk

I'm not about to hold my breath. You are the one asking about me, not vice versa. I don't expect anything from you but what you have already given.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Where does aluminum foil rank on your list of acceptable (or not) items?


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## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> I'm not about to hold my breath. You are the one asking about me, not vice versa. I don't expect anything from you but what you have already given.


To the contrary, you asked how many pounds of honey I produced. I only reciprocated with a jocular query of my own.


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## sqkcrk

Rader,
What's your philosophy on practical reality?


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## sqkcrk

Jim Giles said:


> To the contrary, you asked how many pounds of honey I produced. I only reciprocated with a jocular query of my own.


I think you have your mind made up about guys like me and the folks I associate with. You seem to look down your nose at people who make their living solely from keeping bees. As if living in a trailer and selling a miniscule amount of honey for what you consider a high price is laudable beyond who knows what and has any impact on the GNP or even the Honey Market. You think to highly of yourself.

Bronxville,NY is nowhere near NYC. And my address is right up there in the upper right corner of every Post I write.


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## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> I think you have your mind made up about guys like me and the folks I associate with. You seem to look down your nose at people who make their living solely from keeping bees. As if living in a trailer and selling a miniscule amount of honey for what you consider a high price is laudable beyond who knows what and has any impact on the GNP or even the Honey Market. You think to highly of yourself.
> 
> Bronxville,NY is nowhere near NYC. And my address is right up there in the upper right corner of every Post I write.


I have a very large opinion of myself.

My best friend is a beekeeper.

You must live a very long ways from NYC where I lived for 3 years while working on Madison Avenue if you don't know Bronxville is very close to NYC.

I don't trust what people promote. I liked your use of 'most ain't' or something like that. You implied you were a straight shooter. Now you are equivocating.


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## sqkcrk

I spent two years in school at OSU/ATI getting a degree in Commercial Beekeeping, 20 years doing Apiary Inspection, and 30 years keeping bees. You expect me to give it all up for free? You haven't paid your dues yet.


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## melliferal

While we're all in the disclosing mood, the last bottle of honey (my very own bees') that I sold in 2012 was a 1lb jar for $5.50, in northeast Ohio.

I took a year of Biology C in high school. I got a B, appropriately enough. I also won the smoker-lighting contest at our county association's annual picnic two years in a row. So why don't we cut all this bickering out; it should now be clear who the real beekeeping authority in this thread is.

Those seeking autographs, please form an orderly line.


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## melliferal

Nabber86 said:


> I think that we should petition the internet to amend Godwin's Law to include Monsanto.


And anyway, isn't it _Bayer_ that makes the neonicotinoids that are supposed to be killing off the bees, not Monsanto?


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## Jim Giles

melliferal said:


> While we're all in the disclosing mood, the last bottle of honey (my very own bees') that I sold in 2012 was a 1lb jar for $5.50, in northeast Ohio.
> 
> I took a year of Biology C in high school. I got a B, appropriately enough. I also won the smoker-lighting contest at our county association's annual picnic two years in a row. So why don't we cut all this bickering out; it should now be clear who the real beekeeping authority in this thread is.
> 
> Those seeking autographs, please form an orderly line.


That's pretty funny. And your honey price is consistent with what I initially sold my honey for. Today I get $15 for a pound of my honey and believe it's a very fair price especially given what the competition is selling.


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## jim lyon

Jim Giles said:


> That's pretty funny. And your honey price is consistent with what I initially sold my honey for. Today I get $15 for a pound of my honey and believe it's a very fair price especially given what the competition is selling.


I have a warehouse full of the purest raw honey you can find anywhere. It's been extracted in a sanitary state of the art facility and it tests free of any adulterants or beekeeper applied miticides. Despite the fact that I am one of those large producers that has "monopolistic control of the market" I seem unable to get anyone to bid over about $2.15 per lb. 
I smell an opportunity for someone with your Madison Avenue, marketing expertise. How about I sell you all you want at $3.00 per lb. and you pocket the $10.00 plus per lb. difference. Freight is only a few cents a lb. on a semi load. All you really need to do is take out the word "local" or better yet move up to the Dakotas and keep it in.


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## Nabber86

Jim Giles said:


> Profile updated. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I had forgotten I had posted that but that was years ago when I did consider myself an organic farmer. Things change.


I read your profile last week and it said: 
*
# Years in Beekeeping:
*2

Now it says 5?. Quite the udate.


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## Jim Giles

jim lyon said:


> I have a warehouse full of the purest raw honey you can find anywhere. It's been extracted in a sanitary state of the art facility and it tests free of any adulterants or beekeeper applied miticides. Despite the fact that I am one of those large producers that has "monopolistic control of the market" I seem unable to get anyone to bid over about $2.15 per lb.
> I smell an opportunity for someone with your Madison Avenue, marketing expertise. How about I sell you all you want at $3.00 per lb. and you pocket the $10.00 plus per lb. difference. Freight is only a few cents a lb. on a semi load. All you really need to do is take out the word "local" or better yet move up to the Dakotas and keep it in.


I very much envy your honey inventory. I look forward to having a warehouse full of honey one day. A friend of mine vacations I believe in the Dakotas and his wife might possibly be from up that way too. Anyway, I bought my first two packages of bees from his father, Mr. McCary from Wayne County Mississippi.

I've not checked population statistics recently for the Dakotas but I always associate it with sparsely populated geography. Toxic fake foreign honey is your primary price suppressant along with an assumed small market. But come to think of it, you probably ship anywhere. You might even be shipping to Mississippi currently. Another price deflator would be you are a wholesaler (I assume) and not a retailer like me.

The honey market in the U.S. has been flooded with foreign crap. Toxic no less. It's the same for almost everything else as well. We had a hailstorm recently that did lots of damage to home roofs in the area. The roofing trade here in Mississippi has been over run with Mexican roofers. Like your honey, they roof for less than the native Mississippians. 

Free trade? Yeah, right. 

I'm an autarkist. Ironically, some of our country's first free traders were Southern plantation owners. And you see what the consequences are. And the 'plantation owners' have new slaves today but their primary objective remains the same. They get richer while everyone else gets poorer.

There is more to my product than simply the contents. The contents are very important but my product is multifaceted and exquisitely rich in every aspect.

No offense but I don't know who you are. Is Jim Lyon your real name? Moreover, I'm not sure that I can trust you. In any event, there would be no honor for me to sell someone else's honey. And my honey has Mississippi pollen in it.


----------



## Jim Giles

Get a load of this. Lewis Anderson (sp?) with the Kansas Department of Agriculture just returned my phone call and told me that the regulations in Kansas are due to change whereby a honey vendor at a farmers market will not be required by law to put any label whatsoever on a jar of honey. He said that if a consumer inquired as to 'allergens' then the honey vendor would need to provide written information.

Labels in some ways are as meaningless as the word 'organic.' Who can you really trust?

Most consumers are like cattle, incapable of independent thought and very easily exploited. And the exploitation today is rampant.

Whether dictated to me by the police state or not, I'm proud of my honey and my small farm where my beeyard is located so I take pride in putting my name, Giles Shire and my address on every jar of honey I sell. It also allows repeat business and referrals.


----------



## Jim Giles

Nabber86 said:


> I read your profile last week and it said:
> *
> # Years in Beekeeping:
> *2
> 
> Now it says 5?. Quite the udate.


Honestly, I've lost track of time. It might be more like 10 years. I am sure about the last 3 years because I actually extracted honey. Those initial years . . . It wasn't pretty.


----------



## jim lyon

Sure I am a wholesaler, that makes me a "price deflator"? 
You learn pretty quickly in this business that time is your most valuable asset. I used to pack around 100,000 lbs. per year, but got really bloodied competing price wise with large marketers dealing with fewer and larger grocery chains where the bulk of honey is sold. Their attitude was we're big and your little, we will pay you this much or we will look elsewhere. Prety soon you find yourself driving 500 miles to deliver 100 cs. of honey. Getting out and devoting my time solely to beekeeping was the best decision I ever made. 
I have seen folks like you, Jim (and I mean no disrespect either) come and go in this industry for as long as I have been in it. They sell some honey to some locals for a good price and then assume they can do the same on a larger and larger scale. The high dollar designer market that everyone wants is a really small part of the total honey marketed each year and you can only sell so much local honey which usually involves a lot of long hours standing in the sun. You can do it for a few thousand pounds a year but (short of Manuka honey) I know of none who has figured a way to get the prices you speak of in truck load quantities. 
Years ago my grandfather was one of the first members of Sioux Honey which was only a short drive from where our home was in western Iowa. It was founded as a member only coop by a group of beekeepers unhappy with the price they were getting and convinced that if they marketed it themselves they would be far better off. It was successful but looking at how they have evolved in the ensuing years shows an operation pretty much like the rest, packing mostly US honey but supplementing their needs with imported product (stringently tested in their case) to avoid losing accounts when their domestic/member supplies run short. They adapted to the economic reality. Barkman honey is a Midwestern company that sells, and markets as such, only American produced and (again) quite stringently tested honey. There marketing skills have succeeded in sales to many of the largest grocery chains yet they have also learned that in the final analysis they need their pricing to remain fairly close to any other honey on the shelf. The reality is that most honey purchasers aren't real savvy about what they are buying, what they want is value. They will pay a bit more for something they have purchased in the past and liked but they won't pay a lot more. Look at your store shelves where shelf space is stringently monitored for proof. If something dosent move, it's gone and the empty space is occupied by the products that make the store money. It's reality, you either adapt to it or you won't succeed. 
My offer is still open, though, Jim. If you've cracked the high dollar marketing nut a load of honey will make you about a half a million. You ain't gonna make money like that working a few hundred hives of bees.


----------



## melliferal

Jim Giles said:


> That's pretty funny. And your honey price is consistent with what I initially sold my honey for. Today I get $15 for a pound of my honey and believe it's a very fair price especially given what the competition is selling.


You of course have every right to market your honey as a Veblen good, if you've got a sustainable market of customers willing to come to your trailer and buy it from you at $15 a pound.

I, on the other hand, think that buying real honey from actual beekeepers is something which can be beneficial to everyone, not just the "greenie bourgeoisie", as it were. I know that the relatively disadvantaged will deliberately buy food they know perfectly well to be of lower quality, simply because it is all they can afford. While obviously I'm not into just giving my honey away for free, I also think trying to scare or shame the disadvantaged about how poor of quality that supermarket honey they're forced to consume because of its affordability is, only to turn around and gouge them for the "good", wholesome stuff they should be eating instead, is a bit too cruel for my blood.

To each his own, of course.


----------



## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> If you've cracked the high dollar marketing nut a load of honey will make you about a half a million. You ain't gonna make money like that working a few hundred hives of bees.


 Basic economics says that as the price goes up the demand goes down. If he flooded his own market with a truck load of his own honey he wouldn't be getting 15 buck a pound selling the exact same honey.

We have a vendor selling honey and the smallest bottle looks like 2 to 3 ounces for 5.29. There are more of the small bottles sold then the large bottles because people are going to try the small bottle and then go look up the beekeeper that is actually producing it if they like it.


----------



## Jim Giles

Acebird said:


> Basic economics says that as the price goes up the demand goes down. If he flooded his own market with a truck load of his own honey he wouldn't be getting 15 buck a pound selling the exact same honey.
> 
> We have a vendor selling honey and the smallest bottle looks like 2 to 3 ounces for 5.29. There are more of the small bottles sold then the large bottles because people are going to try the small bottle and then go look up the beekeeper that is actually producing it if they like it.


Quality not quantity!!! In every regard our country exudes quantity and less and less quality. Movies, TV shows, etc.

I'm not servicing any debt. I owe nothing to no one.

Usury and middlemen and quantity are up, big-time. Where is there any honor in any of that?

As for price gouging, I'm sure there is a Wal-Mart nearby. Knock yourself out. My honey is not fake, foreign or poisonous. My jars are to die for.


----------



## Acebird

Jim Giles said:


> I'm not servicing any debt. I owe nothing to no one.


Well niether do I but I am not ready to throw out basic economics.

I am sure your honey is no better than mine but I did say your honey from your hives will be worth less if you produce more. Quality is the same.


----------



## Jim Giles

Acebird said:


> Well niether do I but I am not ready to throw out basic economics.
> 
> I am sure your honey is no better than mine but I did say your honey from your hives will be worth less if you produce more. Quality is the same.


I agree with your basic point about supply and demand which determine price in a fair and free market which is nonexistent in this country. But since I handle far less honey than you I find it impossible that you don't take short cuts while processing the volume of honey I assume you process. You heat your honey to what temperature? How precisely do you filter your honey? How do you store your honey?


----------



## Jim Giles

melliferal said:


> You of course have every right to market your honey as a Veblen good, if you've got a sustainable market of customers willing to come to your trailer and buy it from you at $15 a pound.
> 
> I, on the other hand, think that buying real honey from actual beekeepers is something which can be beneficial to everyone, not just the "greenie bourgeoisie", as it were. I know that the relatively disadvantaged will deliberately buy food they know perfectly well to be of lower quality, simply because it is all they can afford. While obviously I'm not into just giving my honey away for free, I also think trying to scare or shame the disadvantaged about how poor of quality that supermarket honey they're forced to consume because of its affordability is, only to turn around and gouge them for the "good", wholesome stuff they should be eating instead, is a bit too cruel for my blood.
> 
> To each his own, of course.


My trailer? That would be Giles Shire to you.


----------



## Nabber86

Jim Giles said:


> But since I handle far less honey than you I find it impossible that you don't take short cuts while processing the volume of honey I assume you process. You heat your honey to what temperature? How precisely do you filter your honey? How do you store your honey?


Ace takes short cuts and processes more honey that you do? Do you know anything about the people that you are talking to?


----------



## TalonRedding

> Whether dictated to me by the police state or not, I'm proud of my honey and my small farm where my beeyard is located so I take pride in putting my name, Giles Shire and my address on every jar of honey I sell. It also allows repeat business and referrals.


"Shire" is also the Midlands in Great Britain, and is also a county of Great Britain. Unless Shire is part of your name, and from what I've gathered it isn't, you may want to change that because it means that your label is misleading. Is your honey local from Great Britain?



> Usury and middlemen and quantity are up, big-time. Where is there any honor in any of that?


Earlier, you said that you supported the middle class working Americans. Has that part about you changed as well?



> Get a load of this. Lewis Anderson (sp?) with the Kansas Department of Agriculture just returned my phone call and told me that the regulations in Kansas are due to change whereby a honey vendor at a farmers market will not be required by law to put any label whatsoever on a jar of honey. He said that if a consumer inquired as to 'allergens' then the honey vendor would need to provide written information.


You've made clear that you are against a police state, but yet you want _more_ regulation?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

If there is anyone from Mississippi (other than JG) still reading this thread, and are _not yet_ beekeepers, Mississippi _does _have a hive grant program (_*new *_beekeepers only) similar to the Tennessee Hive Grant program mentioned in post #163. 

See this message for more info:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/group.php?gmid=3772&do=discuss#gmessage3772


----------



## Acebird

Nabber86 said:


> Ace takes short cuts and processes more honey that you do?


He must be confused between me and Jim Lyon. I don't sell honey at all.

This may not have sounded right. I don't think Jim Lyon takes short cuts.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

I think his confusion extends somewhat beyond mixing up Brian and Jim.


----------



## Nabber86

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I think his confusion extends somewhat beyond mixing up Brian and Jim.


Confused telling the difference between 2 years, 5 years, and 10 years of beekeeping.


----------



## Jim Giles

Are y'all girls are men?

I'm out of here.


----------



## Nabber86

:applause::applause::applause:


----------



## sqkcrk

I exchange peace pipe PMs w/ JG and go off line for twelve hours and this is what happens? Shame on you all.


----------



## jim lyon

Jim Giles said:


> I agree with your basic point about supply and demand which determine price in a fair and free market which is nonexistent in this country. But since I handle far less honey than you I find it impossible that you don't take short cuts while processing the volume of honey I assume you process. You heat your honey to what temperature? How precisely do you filter your honey? How do you store your honey?


Assuming that this was directed at me. Not sure what "short cuts" you could be referring to. Our honey is briefly heated to about 100 degrees F (similar to a hot Mississsippi day I suppose) so that it can properly seperate in the spinner. We do no filtration. Storage is done in a non climate controlled warehouse but that will change in another year. Cold is good for honey storage, heat (as in a hot summer) will darken it a bit. Our "shortcuts" consist of forklifts, pallets and autoload extractors similar to what many commercial operations use. 
Why is there an assumption among some folks that volume and good quality are somehow mutually exclusive? 
One additional point before I step off my soap box. It does no one in this industry any service to use unfounded descriptions such as toxic to describe commercially sold honey. While no honey is as flavorful as fresh unheated and unfiltered honey it does not make more processed honeys unsafe. If I was going for taste and flavor I would probably opt for the "local raw" honey and take my chances. If I were only concerned about safety, I would buy from a large grocery chain because I know the demands they put on their suppliers and I know the demands the supplier in turn places on the producer. Few will agree to buy from you until its tested and you sign a very official statement of origin document. I even get a bonus for allowing them an inspection of my facilities (yes I agreed). Many even require all shipments come in on a locked van with a numbered seal that matches the paperwork. It's the world we live in. WalMart is highly concerned about product liability, the guy down the street? Perhaps not. So buy with confidence at your local mega market knowing you will get pure, heated, filtered, generic tasting honey in a vacuum sealed container.


----------



## sqkcrk

I'd like to read about what JG can tell us about his time in NYC. Probably nothing to do w/ local raw honey though.


----------



## DPBsbees

Nice post Mr. Lyon. Just last week I had a worrisome experience. I was at Costco, and as we were walking around the store, my Wife said " Look ! They're selling organic honey." I said " No way ! Did they get it from a rain forest?". Low and behold, they did. It was organically certified honey from Brazil and it was less than $4 a pound for a three pound pack. How am I going to compete with that? I may even buy some, just to try it.


----------



## Acebird

I really don't think someone that is selling local raw honey is competing with a major chain. Well maybe if you are trying to get 15 bucks a pound on a pound jar.


----------



## Jim Giles

I apologize for my indelicate innuendo in regard to the lack of manhood on the part of some here who seem intent on ad hominem. How to deal with the petty mind? It’s not a forte of mine but I discern real knowledge about bees here that I would like to avail myself of.

Moving on . . . local raw honey.


----------



## Jim Giles

DPBsbees said:


> Nice post Mr. Lyon. Just last week I had a worrisome experience. I was at Costco, and as we were walking around the store, my Wife said " Look ! They're selling organic honey." I said " No way ! Did they get it from a rain forest?". Low and behold, they did. It was organically certified honey from Brazil and it was less than $4 a pound for a three pound pack. How am I going to compete with that? I may even buy some, just to try it.


You cannot compete with that. That's the whole point. You shouldn't even try to compete with it. You should try to destroy it. It's not real honey. It's toxic fake foreign honey. Only unpatriotic uninformed . . . would ever buy it. Let alone eat it. Certified by who? The Brazilian government or the U.S. government? Either way, the certification is garbage.

You major honey producers should get together and develop your own retail outlets and stop selling your honey to those middlemen or grocery chains. You appear to be unorganized while your enemies are very organized.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Mark - are you out there?


----------



## melliferal

What's wrong with selling our honey through grocery stores? Why not offer it in that central location where everybody goes to "buy food", so they can see it and buy it? Nobody will go to a specialty honey shop unless they specifically want to buy honey.


----------



## jim lyon

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Mark - are you out there?


Mark smoked the peace pipe and I made the decision to quit inhaling.


----------



## sqkcrk

Jim Giles said:


> You cannot compete with that. That's the whole point. You shouldn't even try to compete with it. You should try to destroy it. It's not real honey. It's toxic fake foreign honey. Only unpatriotic uninformed . . . would ever buy it. Let alone eat it. Certified by who? The Brazilian government or the U.S. government? Either way, the certification is garbage.
> 
> You major honey producers should get together and develop your own retail outlets and stop selling your honey to those middlemen or grocery chains. You appear to be unorganized while your enemies are very organized.


Jim,
Thanks for the advice.  I'm sorry but, do you really look down on consumers as well as producers as you seem to come across in your Posts? Do you really think that people like Jim Lyons who have been at this for most of his life hasn't thought of all of the ways he can maximize his income? That 5th Generation Beekeeper Roland hasn't seen it all or heard about it on his Grandpa's knee?

I'm sure that one on one you may be a nice guy I could share a meal with. But your attitude about your fellow man stinks. I don't usually shop at Walmart for my own personal reasons, but it isn't because of the folks that do shop there. Many who have almost no other choice. Everybody, including you, does the best they can. If you don't think so, then you must have a pretty high perch on which to stand. Be careful or someone will knock you off of it when you least expect it.

Back in theatre school we were admonished to be nice to folks on the way up because they will be there on the way down. You, it seems, have only begun your beekeeping life. Be nice. Edit yourself. It's cold out there. Especially when you are all alone.


----------



## sqkcrk

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Mark - are you out there?


Am now. Been working.


----------



## sqkcrk

melliferal said:


> What's wrong with selling our honey through grocery stores? Why not offer it in that central location where everybody goes to "buy food", so they can see it and buy it? Nobody will go to a specialty honey shop unless they specifically want to buy honey.


That's what I do. It's not for everyone though. I sell where I can. Local/small groceries and health food stores and a food co-op. I keep the price as high as I feel I can and available to "the masses". I sell, through the North Country Grown Co-op Inc, which I am a founding member of, to colleges and restaurants in St. Lawrence County, NY. Keeps a cash flow through out the year.


----------



## Jim Giles

jim lyon said:


> Sure I am a wholesaler, that makes me a "price deflator"?


Prices have been driven down by toxic fake foreign honey.



jim lyon said:


> You learn pretty quickly in this business that time is your most valuable asset. I used to pack around 100,000 lbs. per year, but got really bloodied competing price wise with large marketers dealing with fewer and larger grocery chains where the bulk of honey is sold.


Large marketers? Who are they precisely? Are they resellers? If so, what do they buy and who do they buy from?



jim lyon said:


> Their attitude was we're big and your little, we will pay you this much or we will look elsewhere.


I get it. They are financial terrorists and domestic enemies.



jim lyon said:


> I have seen folks like you, Jim (and I mean no disrespect either) come and go in this industry for as long as I have been in it. They sell some honey to some locals for a good price and then assume they can do the same on a larger and larger scale. The high dollar designer market that everyone wants is a really small part of the total honey marketed each year and you can only sell so much local honey which usually involves a lot of long hours standing in the sun. You can do it for a few thousand pounds a year but (short of Manuka honey) I know of none who has figured a way to get the prices you speak of in truck load quantities.


No offense taken. I consider it a privilege to converse with you. Nor do I disagree with what you are saying here. At this point in time, I'm not interested in selling truck loads of honey. Maybe one day, but not now.



jim lyon said:


> Years ago my grandfather was one of the first members of Sioux Honey which was only a short drive from where our home was in western Iowa. It was founded as a member only coop by a group of beekeepers unhappy with the price they were getting and convinced that if they marketed it themselves they would be far better off. It was successful but looking at how they have evolved in the ensuing years shows an operation pretty much like the rest, packing mostly US honey but supplementing their needs with imported product (stringently tested in their case) to avoid losing accounts when their domestic/member supplies run short. They adapted to the economic reality. Barkman honey is a Midwestern company that sells, and markets as such, only American produced and (again) quite stringently tested honey. There marketing skills have succeeded in sales to many of the largest grocery chains yet they have also learned that in the final analysis they need their pricing to remain fairly close to any other honey on the shelf. The reality is that most honey purchasers aren't real savvy about what they are buying, what they want is value. They will pay a bit more for something they have purchased in the past and liked but they won't pay a lot more. Look at your store shelves where shelf space is stringently monitored for proof. If something dosent move, it's gone and the empty space is occupied by the products that make the store money. It's reality, you either adapt to it or you won't succeed.


Toxic fake foreign honey. You should start competing against it by publicizing its toxicity, fakeness and foreigness. 



jim lyon said:


> My offer is still open, though, Jim. If you've cracked the high dollar marketing nut a load of honey will make you about a half a million. You ain't gonna make money like that working a few hundred hives of bees.


Thanks but I'm sticking with my marketing plan.

P.S. Is your honey 'processed honey' or 'raw honey?' If processed, what does that entail?


----------



## Jim Giles

melliferal said:


> What's wrong with selling our honey through grocery stores? Why not offer it in that central location where everybody goes to "buy food", so they can see it and buy it? Nobody will go to a specialty honey shop unless they specifically want to buy honey.


Because they are bloodsuckers, add no value to your product and control the marketplace.

New channels of distribution are needed.


----------



## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> Jim,
> Thanks for the advice.  I'm sorry but, do you really look down on consumers as well as producers as you seem to come across in your Posts? Do you really think that people like Jim Lyons who have been at this for most of his life hasn't thought of all of the ways he can maximize his income? That 5th Generation Beekeeper Roland hasn't seen it all or heard about it on his Grandpa's knee?
> 
> I'm sure that one on one you may be a nice guy I could share a meal with. But your attitude about your fellow man stinks. I don't usually shop at Walmart for my own personal reasons, but it isn't because of the folks that do shop there. Many who have almost no other choice. Everybody, including you, does the best they can. If you don't think so, then you must have a pretty high perch on which to stand. Be careful or someone will knock you off of it when you least expect it.
> 
> Back in theatre school we were admonished to be nice to folks on the way up because they will be there on the way down. You, it seems, have only begun your beekeeping life. Be nice. Edit yourself. It's cold out there. Especially when you are all alone.


My criticisms are levied at those in control now in this country, the uber rich. And I don't apologize at all for that criticism. They deserve so much more. I have contempt for those who will not help themselves while being wiped off the face of the Earth. I accept that Mr. Lyons is as knowledgeable as they come and again feel privileged to converse with him. However, I too enjoy access to local beekeepers with similar knowledge of bees and feel very grateful for that as well. As to generations, the future looks bleak. There is nothing positive happening in this country now. Nothing. We are in decline and again it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

As for my attitude, it's strictly a function of my experiences which vary greatly I'm sure from anyone in this forum. As for shopping choices, there's only Wal-Mart because they put everyone else out of business. As for knocks, I've taken plenty already.

You are correct about my beekeeping however. It's my Second Act. I hope it goes better than my first. 

Thanks for the advice. While we may disagree I hope we can do so without animus.


----------



## squarepeg

jmho, but i think lyons might consider inhaling, and giles might consider exhaling.


----------



## sqkcrk

Jim Giles said:


> Prices have been driven down by toxic fake foreign honey.


Jim,
I'm afraid you don't know what you are talking about. Historically honey prices are higher than they ever have been. "toxic fake foreign honey" has little if anything to do w/ what you or any of us can sell our honey for.

Ask the experts.


----------



## sqkcrk

Jim Giles said:


> Because they are bloodsuckers, add no value to your product and control the marketplace.
> 
> New channels of distribution are needed.


Why do you have such disdain for grocery stores and their owners? Were you one?

New channels? Such as?


----------



## TalonRedding

Who is taking advantage of who?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

+1 for sp 



The BSTV channel has THE best reality show .....


----------



## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> Jim,
> I'm afraid you don't know what you are talking about. Historically honey prices are higher than they ever have been. "toxic fake foreign honey" has little if anything to do w/ what you or any of us can sell our honey for.
> 
> Ask the experts.


The U.S. honey market is flooded with toxic fake foreign honey. We import far more than we export. The imported honey increases the 'supply' which drives the price of honey down. As with everything else as well.

There are many different prices out there because of the bloodsucking middlemen. You've got wholesale prices, retail prices and lots of useless bloodsuckers in between.

In any event, the bottom line is that the toxic fake foreign honey is very hurtful to U.S. honey producers. If it did not exist, the supply would be much less and the price of U.S. honey would go up dramatically. There would be a genuine shortage of honey were it not for the imported honey. Shortages cause prices to skyrocket. Honey prices are much lower than they should be.

Has anyone in this forum ever used the phrase 'toxic fake foreign honey' before? If not, why not?


----------



## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> Why do you have such disdain for grocery stores and their owners? Were you one?
> 
> New channels? Such as?


You apparently have never seen real poverty before. It's like a third world country where I live. And while you may live in the boonies now, what's happening in the urban centers today is going to find its way to even you. And no, I was never a grocer. Nor am I talking about mom and pop grocers. I'm talking about corporate behemoths. 

You'll have to figure out new ways to sell your product and you should.


----------



## sqkcrk

Jim Giles said:


> The U.S. honey market is flooded with toxic fake foreign honey. We import far more than we export. The imported honey increases the 'supply' which drives the price of honey down. As with everything else as well.
> 
> There are many different prices out there because of the bloodsucking middlemen. You've got wholesale prices, retail prices and lots of useless bloodsuckers in between.
> 
> In any event, the bottom line is that the toxic fake foreign honey is very hurtful to U.S. honey producers. If it did not exist, the supply would be much less and the price of U.S. honey would go up dramatically. There would be a genuine shortage of honey were it not for the imported honey. Shortages cause prices to skyrocket. Honey prices are much lower than they should be.
> 
> Has anyone in this forum ever used the phrase 'toxic fake foreign honey' before? If not, why not?


No, it is not.

No there aren't. Not like you think. I do direct store delivery as does the biggest beekeeping outfit in NY.

Wrong again. If honey imported from where it is now it would come from other places or other sweeteners would fill the need.

Why haven't we? Because we don't need to. We sell our own honey. The folks whose job it is to get that stuff off the shelf and prosecute the offenders are doing that. I don't gain any market share by gripping about what others do.

Do you tell every person who buys one of your high priced bottles of honey that if imported honey was taken off the shelf you could charge $20.00 instead?

Where do you sell your honey? How do your customers find you?


----------



## justin

so what is raw and local honey? i don't see the gap closing on this one. raw and local.


----------



## TalonRedding

justin said:


> so what is raw and local honey? i don't see the gap closing on this one. raw and local.


See post #102. It didn't even strike a chord! :s


----------



## TalonRedding

I'm still trying to figure out how folks in extreme poverty can afford $15 for a pound of honey. :scratch:
Again....who is taking advantage of who here? I am so confused.


----------



## squarepeg

Rader Sidetrack said:


> +1 for sp
> 
> 
> 
> The BSTV channel has THE best reality show .....


thanks graham, just trying to interject a little humor into the thread.

local and raw doesn't always translate into clean and pure. deknow reported finding all kinds of contaminants when testing local raw honey. 

it pays to know thy beekeeper........


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> Has anyone in this forum ever used the phrase 'toxic fake foreign honey' before? 

We have seen plenty of discussions using those words, although not necessarily in that sequence.

I'd suggest how you could find some of those discussions with _Search_, but you have already given us your thoughts on that. 

Its not the '_toxic fake foreign honey_' words that are hard to take - its all the _other _pejoratives that are liberally sprinkled throughout your posts. If the point of your posts is to convince others that your view is correct, that plan is going seriously awry as you tick off many of the people reading this. For example, your broad brush with '_lots of useless bloodsuckers_' really doesn't help your case.


----------



## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> No, it is not.
> 
> No there aren't. Not like you think. I do direct store delivery as does the biggest beekeeping outfit in NY.
> 
> Wrong again. If honey imported from where it is now it would come from other places or other sweeteners would fill the need.
> 
> Why haven't we? Because we don't need to. We sell our own honey. The folks whose job it is to get that stuff off the shelf and prosecute the offenders are doing that. I don't gain any market share by gripping about what others do.
> 
> Do you tell every person who buys one of your high priced bottles of honey that if imported honey was taken off the shelf you could charge $20.00 instead?
> 
> Where do you sell your honey? How do your customers find you?


No? Yes. We import far more honey than we export and not by just a little bit but by a lot. It's a flood of toxic fake foreign honey. And the imported honey has driven down the price of honey, big-time.

_sweetners would fill the need_

Here is where you have been programmed to believe in 'free trade.' This is akin to the war on drugs. There are two ways to fight such wars. Legalize drugs or kill the enemy. I favor the latter.

_Do you tell every person who buys one of your high priced bottles of honey that if imported honey was taken off the shelf you could charge $20.00 instead?_

No. Unlike here, I try to speak as little as possible. It's very much a visual experience with me. My honey sells itself.

_Because we don't need to._

This is the principle difference between me and you. You are comfortable and happy. I am neither.

I sell my honey at the Mississippi Farmers Market in Jackson. I'm at the front door. The first person they see upon arriving and the last person they see upon leaving. Obviously chump change to y'all but my product is First Class and second to none.


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## sqkcrk

justin said:


> so what is raw and local honey? i don't see the gap closing on this one. raw and local.


You know what raw and local honey is, don't you? It's honey from near where your customers live that hasn't been highly heated and hasn't been strained. Okie dokie?


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## Jim Giles

justin said:


> so what is raw and local honey? i don't see the gap closing on this one. raw and local.


Good question. I promise that we will return to answering it and in full.


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## Jim Giles

squarepeg said:


> thanks graham, just trying to interject a little humor into the thread.
> 
> local and raw doesn't always translate into clean and pure. deknow reported finding all kinds of contaminants when testing local raw honey.
> 
> it pays to know thy beekeeper........


I could not agree more.


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## sqkcrk

TalonRedding said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how folks in extreme poverty can afford $15 for a pound of honey. :scratch:
> Again....who is taking advantage of who here? I am so confused.


Jim Giles lives in the biggest city in Mississippi. His clientele are the very people he holds in such low regard.


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## melliferal

Jim Giles said:


> I get it. They are financial terrorists and domestic enemies.


Nah. they're merely fellow capitalists; they just happen to be trying to save money on the thing you're trying to make money on. The American market is a massively-multiplayer game; you have to share the gamespace with others, each of whom wants to win, and for some of them winning unfortunately must involve you losing, or winning a little less than you'd like. That's just the game; if you don't want to play it, don't put on a jersey.



Jim Giles said:


> Toxic fake foreign honey. You should start competing against it by publicizing its toxicity, fakeness and foreigness.


Hey, go for it. Stories about "honey laundering" and federal authorities seizing shipments of falsely-labeled honey already get national coverage. I make sure people I know see them, too.

But I would be _extremely_ careful how you go about it, though; if you point to a particular grocery store and say "that place sells toxic fake foreign honey", you might find yourself in a little bit of trouble with that supplier unless you can provide some physical evidence.


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## TalonRedding

sqkcrk said:


> Jim Giles lives in the biggest city in Mississippi. His clientele are the very people he holds in such low regard.


Why, it's the biggest paradox of our time!! :lookout:


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## squarepeg

Jim Giles said:


> my product is First Class and second to none.


grandiose claim, can you prove it?


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## sqkcrk

Jim Giles said:


> This is the principle difference between me and you. You are comfortable and happy. I am neither.


Obviously. Maybe you should seek counseling from a professional and stop dumping your load on us. There's nothing we can do for you here.


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## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> Jim Giles lives in the biggest city in Mississippi. His clientele are the very people he holds in such low regard.


Not true. The people I hold in such low regard know who I am and would never buy anything from me.


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## sqkcrk

Then who are the people you sell honey to? What kind of car does someone who buys honey at your house drive? Who buys your honey at the farm market?


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## Jim Giles

squarepeg said:


> grandiose claim, can you prove it?


Grandiose? If you were a customer, I could. But customers have intuition as well especially mine. The people I'm selling to know a conman when they see one. They also know an honest man when they see one. There's lots of honey at the market from other vendors they could buy from if they wanted to.


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## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> Obviously. Maybe you should seek counseling from a professional and stop dumping your load on us. There's nothing we can do for you here.


Maybe you should stop presuming you control this board. If I determine you speak for everyone, obviously I will not remain.


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## squarepeg

i don't understand. what do you do differently that makes your honey better than anyone else's?


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## justin

my label says raw and local and it is. jim, what makes you think your opinion on this issue is more valid than jims or marks or anyone elses? do what you think is right and i assure you they are doing the same. in this case mutual respect seems more appropriate than criticism. holding people in low regard would classify you as an elitist, at least when it came to them.


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## Jim Giles

sqkcrk said:


> Then who are the people you sell honey to? What kind of car does someone who buys honey at your house drive? Who buys your honey at the farm market?


I'm about done with your third degree. I hope you know more about bees than you know about economics and politics. I've tried to be friendly only to be met with more and more animosity. My opinion is my opinion. If you don't like it . . . And I'm being oh so kind to you boys.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Jim Giles said:


> And I'm being oh so kind to you boys.


And we appreciate your generosity.


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## sqkcrk

Jim Giles said:


> I'm about done with your third degree. I hope you know more about bees than you know about economics and politics. I've tried to be friendly only to be met with more and more animosity. My opinion is my opinion. If you don't like it . . . And I'm being oh so kind to you boys.


Third degree? I'm simply trying to give you a chance to explain to us who you are and how you get such a high price for your honey. I have a hard time imagining they drive Toyota pickups and not Audis or BMWs. That's all.

If you have been trying to be kind, you've missed the mark.


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## sqkcrk

Here is a third degree question. Your Profile says that your occupation is "Beekeeper". What else do you do? Certainly you don't live off of your bees, do you?


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## squarepeg

gile's couldn't be second to none, because mine is!


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## sqkcrk

I can't imagine his honey being anywhere near as nice as mine. My customers tell me it's the best honey they have ever tasted. I agree.


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## squarepeg

it reminds me of something one of my customers said to me, as i was explaining how much careful attention i had devoted to make sure that this honey was as good as it could be, he spouted:

"every beekeeper i've ever bought honey from claimed their's was the best..."


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## sqkcrk

Well sure, what else would they say? "Would you like to buy some honey? It isn't the best. It's not as good as other honey you have eaten. Want to try some? Come on, taste it. It isn't the best, but you will agree it is almost as good. No? Aww, come on. How am I gonna make any money if you don't buy my second best honey?"


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## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> Here is a third degree question. Your Profile says that your occupation is "Beekeeper". What else do you do? Certainly you don't live off of your bees, do you?


 At this point I would guess that his main occupation is being a Trustafarian.


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## Dominic

sqkcrk said:


> Well sure, what else would they say? "Would you like to buy some honey? It isn't the best. It's not as good as other honey you have eaten. Want to try some? Come on, taste it. It isn't the best, but you will agree it is almost as good. No? Aww, come on. How am I gonna make any money if you don't buy my second best honey?"


I dunno, I tend to say that there are a lot of great honeys, but as it depends on taste, one can't objectively say any given sample is the best, because no one would agree. Honey is complex, much like wine, and a huge number of factors influence the organoleptic properties of the honey. My honey is great, and I can say a bunch of reason why it is so, but the only honey I'd bother bashing to make my own look good is the imported kind. After all, I can give as much care and love as I want to my bees, my hives, and my honey, but if at the end of the day all I have to sell is clover honey, and my customer likes stronger honeys like buckweat, how could I convince him my honey is the best?

Then again, I give a good portion of my honey to family, charity, and my own mead trials.

Needles to say, I don't live off the sale of honey.


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## hpm08161947

Nabber86 said:


> At this point I would guess that his main occupation is being a Trustafarian.


Heh heh heh LOL... yea... "Trustafarian" - that's good one!


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## sqkcrk

Jim Giles said:


> I could not agree more.


You agree that one should know their beekeeper but you don't think we should know you?


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## melliferal

sqkcrk said:


> You agree that one should know their beekeeper but you don't think we should know you?


He is not your beekeeper.


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