# Digestive microbes and TF Queens



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

It would depend on what you think "futile effort" would be.

Replacing a queen with a TF queen would enable the survival from mites and any genetic adaptations to diseases. 

While microbes will always be present in the bees, in commercial packages you will have microbes that have been selectively bred for 50 years to survive the chemical and antibiotics used in those hives. Not the optimum situation. 

You may be able to reintroduce the wild strains of the microbes by feeding these bees honey from wild caught swarms and cutouts. Which may be even better cause these would be microbes that are in your local area. Possibly similar to locally adapted bees, you will have locally adapted microbes. 

Long-Term Exposure to Antibiotics Has Caused Accumulation of Resistance Determinants in the Gut Microbiota of Honeybees;
http://mbio.asm.org/content/3/6/e00377-12.full


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

On the other hand the queen could infect the colony with her beneficial microbes. Maybe the eggs pick them up while being laid. Probably not, but maybe. 

Asking "what if this thing which may or may not exist doesn't work?" THAT might be futile. Try it and see what happens.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

There is an enormous amount of 'mystification' regarding bee gut biota.

Two principles: the gut biota is relatively simple and relatively stable worldwide. Regional variations in strains, and impacts from forage sources are detectable. Gut biota varies with age of bees, and time of day (!).

The stable and distinctive bee gut flora indicates that coevolved relationships exist. The claims that 1) sugar, 2) fumagilin, 3) tetracycline permanently disrupt the flora is poorly established in modern sampling. 

A reductionist ideological position on bee health based on the propagandistic assertion that "commercials == bad" is bound to fail.

One can start educating oneself with these articles.

Distinctive Gut Microbiota of Honey Bees Assessed Using Deep Sampling from Individual Worker Bees
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0036393

A simple and distinctive microbiota associated with honey bees and bumble bees
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...umble_bees/links/09e41507daaceeed25000000.pdf

A Metagenomic Survey of Microbes in Honey Bee Colony Collapse Disorder
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/318/5848/283.full

The previously cited article is useful because its references are linked to web sources.
Long-Term Exposure to Antibiotics Has Caused Accumulation of Resistance Determinants in the Gut Microbiota of Honeybees
http://mbio.asm.org/content/3/6/e00377-12.full#ref-list-1


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

David LaFerney said:


> On the other hand the queen could infect the colony with her beneficial microbes. Maybe the eggs pick them up while being laid. Probably not, but maybe.
> 
> Asking "what if this thing which may or may not exist doesn't work?" THAT might be futile. Try it and see what happens.


Agreed and I intend to do that. However, as neebee, I am trying to avoid making definitive statement with no experience whatsoever in this field - hence "what if, may or may not" type of clauses.

JWC - Thanks for those links. The last link from mbio.asm.org seem to imply that vast difference is found in batectia (or restistant varieties) in US vs rest of the world. 

"The gut microbiota of honeybees in the United States provides an unusual example of a clearly defined microbial community subjected to a single broad-spectrum antibiotic for a prolonged period....." "In contrast, the gut microbiota of SUI, CZ, and NZ honeybees contain only 2 or 3 resistance loci, each in very low copy number, as was also true for bumblebees caught in the wild. "... 

I am, however, confused by that article. Not sure if that article is suggesting that antibiotic resistant bacteria in bee gut is a good thing or bad.

In summary, I am trying to (virtually) compare a regular package requeened with TF queen vs a full package / nuc from TF apiary.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

DaisyNJ said:


> Agreed and I intend to do that. However, as neebee, I am trying to avoid making definitive statement with no experience whatsoever in this field - hence "what if, may or may not" type of clauses.


Excellent attitude - even if you aren't a newbee! Absolute statements are a great way to come off as an absolute... well, something uncomplementary.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>In summary, I am trying to (virtually) compare a regular package requeened with TF queen vs a full package / nuc from TF apiary. 

I would not make your decision based on microbe differences. There are many other issues that make a far greater impact.

Your choice is to buy a package and introduce a TF queen or buy an established TF nuc with a TF queen.

IMO Hands down it's a TF nuc with queen. Microbes don't even scratch the surface.
First what comes with a package could be the demises of your bees. A heavy mite load may cause stress and overwhelm a TF queen that she cant recover from. Then there is the diseases that often come in packages. EFB being a big one (watch this spring and summer as all the new beek get their packages then 5 week later many will have spotty brood (that will get blamed on mites) that often ends with the hive later that summer. 75% of the ones that get tested have EFB (I have links to all the threads from last several years many were packages))

When you get your package you will requeen it? You may have acceptance problems where the bees kill your new queen, If you do it right, find out the best ways, you can increase acceptance rates. This can be avoided by getting a nuc.

Now we move on to package verse nuc. This will be debated to death this spring. IMO Here another hands down nuc is far better than a package. Basicly you will have far less problem with a nuc than a package. (again you will see these post in the spring, never ending package problems. "my package absconded" "not growing very fast" "package bees not doing well" "I lost my packaged queen" "packaged queen flew off" "queen dies in cages"...)

So buy the TF nuc and sit back and read all the up come packaged bee problems this spring and not be one who is writing them.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> Excellent attitude - even if you aren't a newbee! Absolute statements are a great way to come off as an absolute... well, something uncomplementary.


I never say that everyone should always avoid absolutes.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Same here. I always never say that too. Absolutely.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

DaisyNJ said:


> But doesnt introducing a TF queen into a treated package / nuc a futile effort given queen and her offspring is fed by other bees which are treated and possibly lacking the necessary digestive microbes ?


It would depend if the bees ability to live treatment free is caused by genetics, or microbes. My money is on genetics as a primary factor. If true, and you wish to be treatment free, and a genuine treatment free queen can be found it would be of benefit to put it in your hive, previously treated or not.

In my country antibiotics are not used in beehives, and bees have a natural bio fauna, they still succumb to mites though so there is more to mite resistance than a natural bio fauna.


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