# Low acceptance rate...



## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

We have tried grafting 4 times and the most queens we have been able to raise at one time is 4 out of 18 grafted. First 3 times we only got 3 out of 15 or so. We make sure we are grafting the right age larva, lots of nurse bees, honey, pollen, etc. The only thing we haven't done is add a wet sponge which I have read some people do. We are grafting indoors and keeping a moist towel over the grafts as we go. Any suggestions or advice?
Thanks!
Dave


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

How long are the grubs out of the hive?

If you can graft a bar in under 5 minutes with a spray bottle of warm water and warm, damp towel to cover the grafts, Just keep trying. it's in the fine details.

I always get a very poor take my first frame of grafts each season. i don't know why, except that I'm usually over 5 minutes - more like 10 or 15 minutes for the first one.

After that, my score goes way up. I suspect it's my hand / brain getting quicker after that first frame.

BTW, I keep a bucket of 95 degree F water in the grafting tent. I dunk the towel in it (and wring it out) and fill the spray bottle with it right before grafting. I graft 1 bar, go drop it into the Cell Builder, graft the second bar, go attach it the the same frame and back into those waiting nurse bees.

If I am distracted, I'll go put the grafting comb back into the carrying nuc' that is made up from the breeder queen's hive. That way the grubs are continuously fed. 

The same frame can't sit out of the hive for an hour of grafting - it has to go back in to it's hive for 45 minutes after being out for 15 minutes. Next graft is a different frame of brood from a different breeder queen.

Do make sure you are not flipping grubs over - they breathe from one side only. Make sure you are grafting female grubs from worker-sized cells.

My only other guesses are: 1) did you make DANG CERTAIN there are no other queen cells NOR other open brood in the CB?; 2) Can you build up the CB even stronger (= more nurse bees) and still only make 15 grafts? (that might help...); 3) How well are they fed - got patty? / got thin syrup? / got very, very fresh real pollen?

David LaFerney and Ray Marler would tell you that placing a comb of open brood into the CB for up to 4 days before grafting gets the nurse bees into "feeding mode", and they swear it helps.


----------



## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks for the tips!! We will try that.


----------



## wvbeeguy (Feb 20, 2011)

My eyes are getting older, i cell punch now, works good, am not moving larva, might do a search on it and give it a try


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Be absolutely sure that the cell builder is hopelessly queen-less and desperate. It should be desperate and frantic when you give the grafts. There should be more stores than needed in the cell builder of both pollen and open nectar. A jar of syrup and a pollen patty is always good.

Although, if you give a frame of eggs to them to "prime them" for royal jelly production, that frame should be the only frame in the cell builder that has any open larva or eggs. In this case, they won't be roaring or desperate or frantic when you give the grafts, unless you remove that 'primer' frame an hour before giving your grafts.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

davel said:


> We have tried grafting 4 times and the most queens we have been able to raise at one time is 4 out of 18 grafted. First 3 times we only got 3 out of 15 or so. We make sure we are grafting the right age larva, lots of nurse bees, honey, pollen, etc. The only thing we haven't done is add a wet sponge which I have read some people do. We are grafting indoors and keeping a moist towel over the grafts as we go. Any suggestions or advice?
> Thanks!
> Dave



It would help us if you provided a detailed description of your cell building methods. It sounds like you're using a swarm box, yes? Lay out exactly all aspects of your methods and then we can diagnose your issues.


----------



## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

We are using the Joseph Clemmons method where we use a cell builder/finisher. We make up the cell builder the day before with as many nurse bees as we can fit in there along with 2 frames of brood, honey and pollen. We insert the empty cell bars and cups that same day for the bees to clean them. The next day we graft using the right age larva. The one thing we did not do is put a wet sponge in there which I have read we should do. Also, we may have had some open brood with the capped brood and I heard we shouldn't do that but I'm confused because some say to add open brood a few days before inserting the grafts so the nurse bees get into feeding mode. We add more brood to the cell builder every 4 days or so to keep it full with nurse bees.
Thanks.


----------



## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

I forgot to ask also, how often can we add more grafts? Will they bees draw out more queen cells if they already have capped queen cells in there or should we start a second cell builder? Thanks.


----------



## McCoslin (Dec 4, 2013)

davel said:


> We are using the Joseph Clemmons method where we use a cell builder/finisher. We make up the cell builder the day before with as many nurse bees as we can fit in there along with 2 frames of brood, honey and pollen. We insert the empty cell bars and cups that same day for the bees to clean them. The next day we graft using the right age larva. The one thing we did not do is put a wet sponge in there which I have read we should do. Also, we may have had some open brood with the capped brood and I heard we shouldn't do that but I'm confused because some say to add open brood a few days before inserting the grafts so the nurse bees get into feeding mode. We add more brood to the cell builder every 4 days or so to keep it full with nurse bees.
> Thanks.


Davel,

So glad to see your post. I am in the same boat!. However, every time I graft acceptance is going up. My acceptance seems to be following the weather here. I am using David Lafernley's/ Clemens starter/finisher. I also put a frame of eggs that I intend to graft off 4 days before and the royal jelly production is way up as compared to not placing the frame of eggs. I am on my 5 th graft today. Keep trying. I was getting really discouraged after my first two only generated four cells. However my 4th is much better. I really think I was ready for queen before they were!


----------



## johnbeejohn (Jun 30, 2013)

when you drop that frame with grafts on in the cell builder you should not be able to just put it in place. there should be so many bees it should take 15 seconds or so to sink down to sit in place do u have enough bees??


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

You said: "We make up the cell builder the day before with as many nurse bees as we can fit in there along with 2 frames of brood, honey and pollen." 

Personally, I find waiting longer than one day beneficial. You just forced the bees into a massively different environment, so giving them more time helps to get them better aligned for the task of building cells. No need to rush this. You can keep this builder going all season, so why force them to build cells starting on day 2. Give them 5 or more days and make sure no cells have been started. Also, I find placing the empty jzbz cells into the builder for a day not worth the extra effort. 

BTW, don't worry about the sponge, I've never used one and have very good acceptance. 


Have you read David's site on queen rearing? Probably the best and most concise document out there for the hobbyist. 

http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/

BTW, I wish David would put this in his signature so I don't have to search every time I need it  Yeah, I could bookmark it, but then I can't find it in my 1000s of bookmarks....


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

AstroBee said:


> BTW, I wish David would put this in his signature so I don't have to search every time I need it  Yeah, I could bookmark it, but then I can't find it in my 1000s of bookmarks....


Just solved this problem by putting a link to David's site on my website


----------



## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Also, you can put the donor frame in the cell builder for a few hours or a day....this makes the grafting easier (larvae get very well fed), and if you leave them in there for a day, you should see queen cells started....this will tell you if the issue is the grafting or in the makeup of the cell builder.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Correct. This is also covered in David's write-up.



deknow said:


> Also, you can put the donor frame in the cell builder for a few hours or a day....this makes the grafting easier (larvae get very well fed), and if you leave them in there for a day, you should see queen cells started....this will tell you if the issue is the grafting or in the makeup of the cell builder.


----------



## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

Can you see real good? It sounds like your on the right track. I don't use any brood in my starter at all, 1 good pollen frame, 1 good open honey frame, cell bar, and two foundation with a jar feeder on top. You can put a frame of open brood in a day or two before you add your grafts. But, shake the bees off and take it out when you add you grafts. If you can't see the larva sliding off the grafting tool into the cell cups you can't see good enough. I use a desk mounted lighted magnifying glass and I can literally watch the larva slide right off the tip of the tool then I know for sure I have a good larva in each cup. That at least rules out one problem area.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

davel said:


> We make up the cell builder the day before with as many nurse bees as we can fit in there along with 2 frames of brood, honey and pollen.


Try it with no brood, long as the cells will later get transferred to a cell finisher hive.

Also, early season grafting can be patchy, then results suddenly get better as swarming time approaches.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

David uses one CB and 40 nuc's. He grafts, filling only 20 nucs 22 days after first cycle. 11 days after the first grafts, he grafts again. Day 22 he cuts & plants into 20 of the nuc's. He then grafts another frame.

So he's grafting every 11 days, the queen cells go in to the nuc's, hatch, mate and begin laying for 22 days, then are cycled out to hive boxes, freeing up 20 nuc's for the next cycle.


----------



## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks for all the tips!!


----------



## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

Ok, we are totally perplexed. Last 2 attempts at grafting have resulted in zero cells drawn out. Don't understand it. We have done everything by the book...please read my earlier posts to this thread. What could be the problem? They are even removing the larva we have grafted. We have looked for eggs from a possible laying worker but haven't found any. We have been putting a frame of brood in once a week. There are a lot of bees in the box. Should we just start a new cell builder? Any thoughts??
Thanks.


----------



## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

Also, we tried adding the donor frame to the cell builder a few hours before we grafted and that didn't help either.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Try taking a frame that you would graft from (must have eggs and very young larvae) and placing it in your cell builder for 3 days. No grafts, just the frame as it came out of your breeder colony. During these 3 days treat the CB as though they are building cells (feed and no disturbance). Obviously you don't need eggs, but that helps ground your assessment of the age of the larvae you're placing in the CB. Come back at the end of three days and tell us what you see. If there are queen cells on the frame, then that would suggest that your grafting is the problem. If there are no Q cells present, then your cell builder is the problem.

Give this a shot.


----------



## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks Astro! You know, the last 2 times we grafted we didn't put the cell cups in there the day before to let the bees clean them...wonder if that might be the problem too. We will try your suggestion.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

davel said:


> Ok, we are totally perplexed. Last 2 attempts at grafting have resulted in zero cells drawn out. . What could be the problem?


The great majority of the time with cell builders people add brood to, this problem is caused by a virgin in the hive. It is surprisingly easy to miss a small emergency queen cell they have raised somewhere, not all of them are big and easy to spot.



davel said:


> Should we just start a new cell builder?


Yes.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The most reliable method is a "swarm box" that is overflowing with bees for the starter. It's queenless, broodless and overflowing with nurse bees. What else are they going to feed?

Any problems with cells being started usually comes back to not enough density of bees in the starter. If you can fit more in, you don't have enough...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm#cellstarter


----------



## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks for all the advice! We will give it another go this weekend and I will post the results.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Davel one thing I'm not clear about, are the bees in the starter able to fly, or have they been locked in the whole time?


----------



## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

They are able to fly.


----------



## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

They are bringing in pollen.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Got a picture of your cell builder by chance?


----------



## davel (Jan 29, 2011)

Unfortunately, no. I will try to take one Saturday though.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The general rule would be if you can fit any more bees in the cell starter, there are not enough bees...


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Kinda.

You need a lot of bees but if they will be blocked in like this cell starter is you don't want them to suffocate. This starter, which is run for 24 hours blocked in, before the cells get transferred to a finisher, has ventilation top and bottom, if run in the configuration shown which is 1 frame of cells and 2 frames of feed (no brood), takes 3 lb's of bees.

EDIT - Should add it is not left outsid in the sun, it is kept in a cool place.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Heck guys - all these cell problems - find your breeder queen - split her off with all the capped brood - let the hive make your cells - cut them out. Need more - use however many hives you need - think 10 cells per hive (if you get more that's just a bonus) - Do how ever many breeders you need. Heck - EZest way I make cells. And the bees know what there doing way better than I do. I do about 75/100 cells a round this way. (every couple of weeks if needed)


----------



## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

He wants to know how to have more success with his chosen method, not how to do something completely different.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

the word insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results - if his chosen method is not working - maybe a change is needed. I am trying to be pro active - and if he doesn't like my recommendations I'm sure he can speak for himself. I was just trying to give him an option - what are you contributing to this post badbeekeeper? No one here needs a [email protected]$$.


----------



## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

AstroBee said:


> Try taking a frame that you would graft from (must have eggs and very young larvae) and placing it in your cell builder for 3 days. No grafts, just the frame as it came out of your breeder colony. During these 3 days treat the CB as though they are building cells (feed and no disturbance). Obviously you don't need eggs, but that helps ground your assessment of the age of the larvae you're placing in the CB. Come back at the end of three days and tell us what you see. If there are queen cells on the frame, then that would suggest that your grafting is the problem. If there are no Q cells present, then your cell builder is the problem.
> 
> Give this a shot.


+1


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> He wants to know how to have more success with his chosen method, not how to do something completely different.





sakhoney said:


> the word insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results - if his chosen method is not working - maybe a change is needed. I am trying to be pro active - and if he doesn't like my recommendations I'm sure he can speak for himself. I was just trying to give him an option - what are you contributing to this post badbeekeeper? No one here needs a [email protected]$$.


BadBeeKeeper, I failed with my first graft attempt last year and ended up getting "nothing" out of what I invested in it. Looking back on it, I wish I would have thrown in a frame with eggs/larva when I grafted. Yes they'd be competing with the grafts, but in my case my grafts were useless to the bees. So I'd at least have gotten some emergency cells out of it when it was all said and done. I just grafted Wednesday and checked 24 hours later and looks like I got about 50% or more take on my 30 grafts. I only want 8 cells or so, so hedged on the side of caution grafting way more than I needed. If I go in on day 4 or 5 and don't see what looks like a satisfactory result, I think it would be perfectly valid to drop in a frame of young larva to "salvage" the attempt. That or re-graft. 

Looks like this one is going to go pretty well for me, at least at this point. But sakhoney and AstroBee I think both gave a great 'diagnostic' tool to use than can net you queens in the process.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Thanks JW - I really was just trying to help - better to get some cells however you can than to buy unknown stock to the tune of 5 bucks a cell. I ran out of time this time home for splitting and had to shell out $250 for my operation - (I work 28/28) and that hurt.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

sakhoney said:


> the word insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results - if his chosen method is not working - maybe a change is needed.


He could change if he wishes.

But his chosen method does work, just, he is doing something wrong, probably to do with adding brood, which can cause them to raise a virgin you don't know about & you then get zero cells accepted.

But hey what would I know I have only raised tens of thousands of queen cells using a queenless starter box?


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If your cell builder isn't building nice queen cells on the brood frames you add there is almost certainly a queen present - even a weak cell builder will try to build cells if it's queenless. They may not accept your grafts if you are doing anything wrong there, but there is almost always larvae somewhere on a frame of brood and they will build it out. You have to check for wild cells religiously to keep one of these going or it will make a queen.

Other than that the #1 problem is not enough bees. The best way to make one IMO is to remove the queen from a strong (preferably slightly swarmy) hive and then reduce it down and make up the cell builder out of brood and resources from the now queenless hive - and leave it in the same spot. There will be bees hanging on the outside, because they won't all fit inside. You have to check every few days for wild cells, and you need to feed continuously.

Practice practice...


----------

