# Regenerative Beekeeping



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

I am looking forward to Part II of David's article in next month's ABJ.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

hmm double wall hives, I have heard of that some where.

good info.

GG


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## Nicksotherhoney (Jun 10, 2017)

Did he just double up on two sides? It seems like there is a trend to double up the walls. I like his entrance reducer ideas!


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## Nicksotherhoney (Jun 10, 2017)

Curious to see how this goes. I’m gonna try and make something similar this summer.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Nicksotherhoney said:


> Did he just double up on two sides? It seems like there is a trend to double up the walls. I like his entrance reducer ideas!


he added a layer to the inside of the sides to get down to 9 frame, then to the outside of the end to get double wall.
while still using single wall supers.

GG


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## backyard smallcell (10 mo ago)

Large entrance hole,
Insulated top, and sides 
Dead air underneath 
small cell wax foundation. 
Continuous brood chamber comb, 
Turned and spaced hive orientation.
what the next lesson?


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Very interesting. I want to see the next installment.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Part II- I was glad to see that he gave a nice homage to Terry Combs.

It also seems like they have developed a pretty decent system for assessing resistance and proactively managing those colonies that are not up to snuff.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> he added a layer to the inside of the sides to get down to 9 frame, then to the outside of the end to get double wall.
> while still using single wall supers.
> 
> GG


9 frame or ten makes no difference to me or any hobby keeper. Easy to adopt. Or just slip a slice of foam in place of the outside frames.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

We have been adding 'side' boards to the insides of our 10 frame brood boxes for a while, effectively turning them into 8 frame boxes. This article describes the method for adding the same size board to the outside (short side) that we will be adopting before snowfall.

We too, cannot wait to see part 2.


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## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

I really appreciate these articles. Thanks for posting them. In the photos of the modified entrance, it looks like the bees enter at the side and above the slatted rack rather than below the rack. It makes me curious as to why they chose to make it this way. Any thoughts?


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

david stern said:


> Any thoughts?


David:

Glad you enjoy the articles- Mr. Papke has included his email address at the bottom of the articles and has invited questions and feedback. I've communicated with him and I think he would welcome your question.

If you do correspond with him, do you mind to update us on what you learn?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Frankly, this is the seventh season as I have been practicing "regenerative beekeeping" (if to go by the article's definitions - I have done it all and actually more).

For my location, the Oxalic Acid was the real game changer. 

Back to (1)"location, location, location" and (2)"genetics, genetics, genetics".
These two are the real elephants.
The rest is secondary.

Just so people understand.
This "regenerative beekeeping" thing alone will not do anything for you if you land in the middle of the "mite lands" with your Italian bees.

Evaluate what is (and what is not) possible at your place and with your bees - first and foremost.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> Back to (1)"location, location, location" and (2)"genetics, genetics, genetics".
> These two are the real elephants.
> The rest is secondary.


Here within the TF subforum I would add that the base foundation is education, education, education.

With this, folks with a philosophical bent toward TF have the tools they need to make informed decisions about how to approach their unique situation and goals, and make adjustments as might be required or helpful.

For my part, I think education is important to help one remain focused on trying to identify how to make TF work in their operation if this is something of primary importance to them.

While I cast no aspersions towards anyone who chooses to utilize treatments, for some of us the goal of pursuing TF is an aspiration unto itself, so there is a segment that would like to pursue TF in areas where location and/or genetics are not favorable- and in such locations, education and skill become necessary attributes to successfully engage, and hopefully overcome, the challenges presented.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> Here within the TF subforum I would add that the base foundation is education, education, education.


I would add learn patience and take baby steps.


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## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

Litsinger said:


> If you do correspond with him, do you mind to update us on what you learn?


I've written the man and I will post any response here. I appreciate the suggestion to write him.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

ursa_minor said:


> I would add learn patience and take baby steps.


LOL...Baby steps is all I can ever take. If chased I'd be caught pretty quick



david stern said:


> I really appreciate these articles. Thanks for posting them. In the photos of the modified entrance, it looks like the bees enter at the side and above the slatted rack rather than below the rack. It makes me curious as to why they chose to make it this way. Any thoughts?


Agreed; so far the articles leave a lot of info out. But...we can ask GregB or visit his amazing thread for some answers.


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## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

I got a kind response from David Papke. His writing is already succinct and so I will just cut and paste (with David's permission) He attached a few more photos and I will make them available here if you want.

"I have done away with traditional bottom boards altogether and replaced them with a modified super which more closely resembles the entrances found in wild colonies' nests. Of all the hive modifications I have made these entrance boxes seem to be the perfect combination of small size entrance, dead air space, insulation and winter reducer. The entrance size is much easier for the bees to defend and does not restrict the heavy flow of bees in a nectar flow. It seems right for hive ventilation as well since bees evolved in closed tree cavities where they successfully control air exchange, humidity and temperature. Plus in three years I have not had mice nest in any of these hives (I assume the reason being the entrance).
Just to be clear David, the entrance is cut out on the short side of a standard shallow size rectangular box, and the slatted rack runs perpendicular to the frames (I know slatted racks today run parallel with the frames; however, perpendicular is what CC Miller first proposed for a slatted rack in the late 1800's when bottom boards were 3'+ deep). So there's a bottom attached to the box, then 2" insulation, then 1/4" plywood floor which the slatted rack sits on. I tried to show in the pictures (from the inside) how bees entering can go up, down, sideways - any way they choose. The purpose of the rack (as first proposed by CC Miller) was simply to discourage the bees from building comb down into the empty space of the deep bottom board. And that was my plan as well since I thought an empty dead air space would be similar to the wild nests Seeley and others have witnessed."


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

david stern said:


> I got a kind response from David Papke. His writing is already succinct and so I will just cut and paste (with David's permission) He attached a few more photos and I will make them available here if you want.
> 
> "I have done away with traditional bottom boards altogether and replaced them with a *modified super* which more closely resembles the entrances found in wild colonies' nests. Of all the hive modifications I have made these entrance boxes seem to be the perfect combination of small size entrance, dead air space, insulation and winter reducer. The entrance size is much easier for the bees to defend and does not restrict the heavy flow of bees in a nectar flow. It seems right for hive ventilation as well since bees evolved in closed tree cavities where they successfully control air exchange, humidity and temperature. Plus in three years I have not had mice nest in any of these hives (I assume the reason being the entrance)...........


My version of the same.
Works great.
No slatted racks are needed either - bees have not built down so far (don't know why).


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

david stern said:


> I got a kind response from David Papke.


Thanks for posting this feedback, David. I really appreciate it!

Russ


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## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

GregB said:


> My version of the same.


I like your version too. It looks like you could drop a rack into it if you wanted.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

david stern said:


> I like your version too. It looks like you could drop a rack into it if you wanted.


Does not seem necessary. The rack.


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## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

I agree the rack is not necessary, but rather, possibly helpful. A rack may be worthy in my situation which is overwintering in a single 10 frame deep using concepts talked about in the "Condensing Hive" discussion. I am using 2"xps on all sides and 2-4"inches on top with no upper vent. 

So, I am thinking a rack could have a few benefits in my case which may make them worthwhile like:
1. More thermal mass below the broodnest. (Seems like a good thing)
2. It could encourage the bees to allow the brood area to expand toward the entrance. (May help with swarming)
3. It would give more area within the hive for bees to congregate. (May help with swarming)
There are probably other benefits, but these are the main ones I think about as I contemplate using a rack.

The biggest negative is building/having/maintaining more equipment; this keeps me from jumping in with both feet. My current goal is to expand to 150 colonies; (now have 25 to attempt to overwinter) and that's a lot of racks.

David Papke's design with its entrance extending above the rack appears to negate the advantage of broodnest expansion lower in the comb, so his article got my attention and I wanted to understand why he chose to do it that way figuring he might know something I should want to know. It seems his premise is to make the entrance as much like a tree cavity as possible. This is understandable. It's something to consider along with all the other things to consider, but this is not currently my personal goal.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

david stern said:


> I agree the rack is not necessary, but rather, possibly helpful.


I don't know, david.

Frankly, every time I see a no need in yet another gizmo - I avoid that gizmo.
The rack is yet another piece I don't need.
To me simple is good.

The whole hoopla about the rack was primarily to prevent the bees from building down off the lowest tier of frames.
Which I have not observed - the combs under the frame bottom bars.

Let me state that I run an experimental CVH where I run the mini-frames in the "warm way".
Right there I have little in common with the conventional Lang setup.
So far I have mosly positive impressions of my hive - a very good compromise of the conventional materials and methods and the "log hive" properties.

CVH (Compact Vertical Hive) by GregV | Page 3 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums

Too bad I had no chance to expand my CVH segment this season due to other projects.
There will be the next year, as usually.


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## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

I know. This is why I consider... and consider more... and still do not do. I guess I am looking for someone or some research paper to convince me. I will continue on without it; still keeping myself open to the possibility of being swayed toward the rack.


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## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

@Gregg Several years ago, for three or four years, I ran some entrances similar to yours, but with three 1" holes on one end. I used them on top, back when I was trying to find treatment free success using Michael Bush's system. I still have a couple of them in pretty rough shape.

Currently I have five colonies in either five or eight frame boxes that I would like to get into Tens, only I've used all the 10 frame bottoms. So, I am considering some of this sort that would have the ability to insert a custom rack. Thanks for the input.


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