# This could be trouble.



## Luke (Sep 8, 2003)

This story appears in today's Boston Globe in a section for north of Boston.

ROWLEY 
To bee or not to bee splits neighborhood
By Meredith Goldstein, Globe Staff, 4/15/2004

Patricia Watson has been stung by bees four times in her life. Each time, she says, she has wound up in the emergency room.

She is allergic to bees, avoids them at all costs, and now 80,000 of them may be moving next door.

"They can't be leashed or fenced in like a dog," Watson said to Rowley selectmen, who heard her concerns Monday night. "They're wild."

Bees have divided the Hillside Street neighborhood in Rowley. On Monday night, Watson, came to selectmen armed with a petition signed by neighbors, copies of the state public nuisance law, and a note from her doctor about what a bee sting might do to her.

On the other side of the bee battle are the Lesinskis. Vinny and Lauren Lesinski are bee enthusiasts. They moved to Rowley from Beverly, where they now keep their bees, so that they would have a wide-open space for tending to their hives. They say their bees are gentle creatures and that their hobby shouldn't put Hillside neighbors at risk. They want to keep an apiary in their backyard. As of now, the couple would not be breaking any laws by bringing the bees to town.

Watson wants the town to not only stop the Lesinskis from bringing their bees to Rowley, but to prevent other beekeepers in town from keeping hives close to residences. She asked to place a proposed ordinance before Town Meeting voters, but the warrant for the annual Town Meeting is already closed.

The Lesinskis, who came to the meeting with members of the Essex County Beekeepers Association, say they plan to bring the bees to their 1.1-acre property sometime this spring.

Vinny Lesinski said it would be safer to keep bees close to his home, as opposed to another property that he would have to travel to by car.

"The hive is healthier because you can better manage it," he said.

Vinny Lesinski said he believes he has been a good neighbor and did warn at least one abutter about his plans. He said Watson learned of the hives from his wife Lauren during a neighborhood function and since then, the two sides have not been able to compromise about the apiary.

"At this point, we realize we're not going to have a rational conversation about this," he said.

Selectman A.J. Paglia heard opinions from both sides of the bee issue Monday night. He told the neighbors that the discussion would be continued at the April 26 selectmen's meeting. Paglia advised the residents that they should discuss the issue before the next meeting and try to find a compromise. He believes one can be reached.

"It seemed like a reasonable group of people," he said.

Paglia said that regardless of the outcome of this bee issue, Watson may resubmit a proposed nuisance bylaw setting limits on beekeeping for the fall Town Meeting. As part of a packet of evidence, Watson submitted a cease and desist order from Marblehead that was issued to a resident, David Martin, of Susan Road, in 1997. The order, from Wayne Attridge of the town's Health Department, demanded that Martin stop his beekeeping because of its public safety risk. She told selectmen that there are other communities across the country that either prohibit apiaries from residential properties or place limits on beekeepers for public safety.

Paglia said that as of now, he does not see a need for a local bylaw for bees. There have been many beekeepers in Rowley, he said. This is the first complaint he's heard of.

"Usually, when someone submits a bylaw, it's because of a pattern of problems," he said.

Both sides have submitted testimony from neighbors.

Barbara Ingham, of Longwood Avenue in Peabody, wrote a letter supporting the Lesinskis and their bees. Ingham said the couple has hosted her family on a tour of their hives.

"My children and I observed firsthand the gentleness of honeybees and now have a greater understanding of their important role in the natural environment," Ingham's letter states.

Another letter, from Lillabeth Wies, who served as superintendent of Long Hill Estate, a Trustees of Reservations property where the Lesinskis have kept their hives, states that the couple's bees never harmed visitors to the site.

"No one has ever been bothered, including Long Hill visitors, staff or my family," she states in the letter.

Watson has also produced letters. Several are from neighbors farther down Hillside Street who live near another apiary.

Michael and Erica Bagley of Hillside Street wrote a letter to selectmen expressing their general concern about what they say is a problem that already exists in the neighborhood. The letter states that Michael Bagley has been attacked by a swarm of bees in his yard.

"Fear of one's life in one's own yard is a terrible thought," the letter states.

Paglia said if a compromise isn't reached before the next meeting, he and selectmen will vote to determine whether the issue merits consideration by the Board of Health, which governs public nuisance complaints.

Watson said if the arrival of the bees isn't stopped, her quality of life on Hillside Street will change.

"I will be forced to be confined to my home," Watson said at the meeting. "The Lesinskis may be willing to risk my health but I'm not."

Meredith Goldstein can be reached at [email protected].


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In the end, the world will either be full of bees or there won't be a world.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

I am sorry, but I have to agree with her concerns. In fact, I would like to see gardening banned as flowering plants attract bees. I also think that anyone with a lawn should have to pave it over and all trees cut to eliminate the hazards of people getting stung. And automobiles should be banned because I am sure there are some in the town who are allergic to being run over. And any water container over 8 oz. should be banned for the safety of those who are allergic to being submerged for over 5 minutes at a time. And any water container that is 8 oz or smaller should be emptied and rinsed at 10 minute intervals for those who are allergic to west Nile virus and other mosquito-born diseases. And anyone not a legal adult should be required to live in a glass bubble until the age when they can make mature decisions regarding the hazards they face on a daily basis.

But then I believe that it is my responsibility to take care of everyone for no one should be responsible for their own safety. 

WayaCoyote


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

some ideas:

1. move out and rent the house to a fraternity that has been kicked off campus. offer to kick them out when his bees are welcome in the neighborhood.

2. move out and rent the house to a crack dealer so his next door neighbor will have a real reason to stay indoors.

3. set up cameras and obtain photographic evidence of bees or wasps flying from the neighbors yard into his. then file serial lawsuits for negligence and reckless endangerment.

4. propose a town ordinance banning automobiles. emergency rooms are full of automobile passengers.

5. plant a kudzu vine on the shared fence. soon enough the neighbor won't be able to FIND her house.

6. join one of those religions that advertise in the back of magazines, become an ordained minister, sign the house over the ministry and just watch them try to zone you out.

7. put empty hives in the back yard with plenty of swarm lure. might get lucky and a wild hive could take up residence. sue the town council for failure to protect you.

8. buy a billygoat. soon enough the neighbor will be asking for bees to keep the goat out of her yard.

9. introduce all the other neighbors into beekeeping, giving out lessons, starter hives and nucs. start a neighborhood honey festival to raise money for children who need to go to the hospital with real symptoms.

10. give up beekeeping and take up christmas light decorating. start your display the day after halloween and don't take the lights down all year. leave the lights on all night so the traffic jams last until midnight on good friday. invite your hick beekeeping friends to drive their RV's up to camp in your front yard for all major holidays.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Having been alerted to this thread recently, I must say I am a bit embarrassed over the replies posted. I see nothing in the article that ought to cause one to think the neighbor (Watson) has unwarranted concerns. Why do we automatically assume the person who doesn't like bees "just doesn't understand?" Why shouldn't she be very concerned about beehives being kept next door after having been stung 4 times and having near anaphylactic reactions? Laws can't make two neighbors live peacefully with each other. Only a compassion and concern for others can do that. Frankly, I am often ashamed at how people will place more importance on their bees than on a relationship with neighbors. I know this goes both ways and I have no idea what conversations have taken place between the two, but personally, I would keep my bees somewhere else if I had a neighbor that was very agitated by their presence, especially since we know past experiences of allergic reactions.

If Mrs. Watson were to join this board and express her thoughts, would saying "your medications need adjusting" be civil? Would making light of any of her concerns be civil? I think not. I have a mind to see if she would be willing to voice her comments on this board so we can all better understand this problem.

Regards,
Barry


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## oregonsparkie (Apr 12, 2004)

I can certainly see her concern but whether the hives are in the next bit of property or a few miles away there is always the possibility of bees around especially in the time of honeyflow. Of course she will have greater exposure if the hives are nearby verses a foraging bee passing by. I live in a small town on a small lot and may face somthing similar someday. Hopefully everyone can be adult enough to work this out to everyones benefit. The last thing anyone needs is bad publicity for beekeepers

[This message has been edited by oregonsparkie (edited April 26, 2004).]


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I had a few hives behind my office in town. One day a guy comes in and asks who owned the hives. I said I did. He asked me if I was moving them anytime soon, as he didn't want to call the township as a first response. I asked why the concern, and did anyone get stung. He said no, but he noticed that his recently planted flowers were attracting the bees and that he had kids, and was concerned. I mentioned that flowers did tend to attract honeybees, and also wasps, hornets and the like. That honeybees seldom sting, and moving my hives may not eliminate all bees from his backyard.

Normally I would take on a challenge such as this, but I was moving/eliminating this apiary location anyways, and figured the his hysteria may turn it into something much more. Shows how ignorant the public is about the honeybee and its contributions. Also says that each beekeeper needs to help educate the public more.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

When every third person you mention bees to tells you they are allergic to stings,you tend to get very skeptical of these claims.Lots of people who think they are,arent.Those who truly are face a life threatening problem,whether or not the neighbor has bees ,and should have a doctor prescribe a kit for them.They may not always be within 30 minutes of a doctor.


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

To Hobbee and Luke, 

I am the person referred to in the article. I was offended by your disparaging comments and your assumptions that I am not allergic to bees, and am just mentally unstable. As the article mentioned, I presented a letter from my dr. confirming my bee allergy. I do have an epi-pen, would be willing to use it if necessary. However, I also have asthma and hypertension so using the epi-pen could kill me. 
Luke, I have been stung 4 times in my life, and each time has landed me in the er. I get profound swellling which lasts for weeks, a body rash and hives. I am terrified at the prospect of having 80,000 bees next door. A kind neighbor about a mile down the street has offered to house the bees in a field of goldenrod and loostrife. It would be a 3 minute drive from their house, and reduce the risk to me, but my
neighbors are unwilling. I have lived in this neighborhood for 8 years, and always been a good neighbor to others. All but two of my neighbors supports me and are astounded by the lack of compassion exhibited by our new neighbors. When I originally mentioned I had a bee allergy, the wife said "but you will have more flowers." If the bees come, I will be confined to my home all summer. My husband, who has a bad back, will have to assume the maintenance of my garden. When I mentioned at the last meeting that I may have to sell my home, my neighbors heard the beekeepers in the back of the room snicker. These people are destroying the harmony of our neighborhood, alientating themselves from everyone in the neighborhood, and are definitely giving beekeepers a bad names. 

This is definitely not how to be a good neighbor. Where is the human compassion?

Pat Watson


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2004)

I had the exact same concerns when I started in my neighborhood. Having bees everywhere.
Since I aquired my hive I see very few honeybees, even on all of the dandelions and fruittree flowers in the yard, slightly more than before. They all head out somewhere else. 

80,000 bees is a lot, but spread over about 16 square miles that isn't all that many. A three minute drive away will probably mean just as many bees in your yard as right next door, since they travel up to 7 miles. And if we got rid of all stinging insects, we'd have few or no fruits and vegetables and lots and lots of garden pests and spiders.

On the other hand, the bumblebees, mason bees, sweat bees, and wasps of all sorts threaten me on a daily basis. Wasps in the house all the time, always in the shed and scare the heebe-geebees out of me and bumble/carpenter bees are trying to build nests all over the place and are REALLY menacing.

With all due respect, unless the beehive is right on your property line there is only as much risk of being stung as you've lived with there for the last 8 years.

Have you discussed with the Lesinskis ways to minimize any disturbances from the bees? If any of my neighbors have a problem with my honey bees, I hope they come to me first and try to work it out. I am much less likely to fight, and more likely to work it out and even move them if needed.

I understand your plight, but I also understand the defensive behaviour when someone threatens our interests, on both sides of the aisle.

The main key is coolheadedness / understanding on both sides. I know you may think that that I am just a propagandizer for the beekeepers, but I really do understand both sides since I thought a lot about this before trying beekeeping, and this did concern me highly.

-rick


[This message has been edited by kookaburra (edited April 26, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by kookaburra (edited April 26, 2004).]


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Flowergirl, just out of curiosity, how did your doctor determine you were allergic to honeybee stings, as opposed to wasps, etc.? I was diagnosed as allergic to bees, and have a prescription for an epi-pen, but I believe they were mistaken, as I've been stung frequently with no reaction other than localized swelling, itching etc.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

To Hobbee and Luke,

I promised Mrs. Watson that should she join the Board, I would then have to consider your two posts to be uncivil to her as a member and would delete them. That I have done. I hope we can have a well grounded discussion about this problem as it is one that a lot of us have faced, or will face, eventually. I have invited the Essex County Beekeepers Association to add their input, along with the Lesinski's. I sure hate to see something like this go to the point where the government has to get involved. I think Rick says things very well regarding this story. I hope we all can play a positive role in helping to bring about a peaceable solution to this problem.

Regards,
Barry


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Barry,

First I would like to thank you for deleting the offensive messages.

Loggermike, FYI over 2 mill. people in the US are allergic to stinging insects and are at risk for an anaphlyactic reaction. There are others who discover they are allergic when they are stung. Bee stings account for most of the deaths, because there is a higher concentration of protein in bee venom.

As for how I found out I was allergice to bees, bees leave their stinger behind, while wasps do not. The bees left being their calling cards.

I did attempt to work this out with my neighbor without getting the town involved. I gave her some
literature about bee allergies, and offered to find an alternative site. I recruited one of my neighbors to try to act as a mediator. I only went to the town when she said "the bees are coming." When I told her I was allergic, she said "but your garden will have more flowers." At the meeting, her husband said "everyone is allergic to bees," which suggests an utter
lack of understanding of bee allergies. They have a hilly, narrow one acre lot. They did agree at the first meeting to move the hive away from my kitchen window to the other side of their lot, but it is still less than 150 ft from my house. After my previous experiences, I am fearful of being stung again, and would not be comfortable being outdoors if the bees are in their yard. My family typically eats outdoors on our deck all summer, weather permitting. This will not longer be possible either.

Over 20 of my neighbors are supporting me on this.
The Lesinskis have few supporters in the neighborhood. We have been fortunate until now to live in a neighborhood where people care for each other. When my daughter was hospitalized, people brought over casseroles, we hold an annual holiday open house, another neighbor holds a cook out in the summer. The list goes on. Many of our neighbors are sadden by the lack of compassion shown by the Lesinskis, as are we.

Needless to say, this controversy has caused tremendous emotional turmoil in our neighborhood. These types of situations give beekeepers a bad name.

Pat Watson


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Something else to keep in mind. My son stepped on a honeybee while running barefoot in our yard and got stung. He had been stung before without any abnormal reaction. Just slight swelling. However, this time he did have a severe reaction and developed hives and became lethargic. We took him to the ER and they immediately gave him an IV of epinephrine as he was swelling all over. Interestingly, he has been stung by honeybees since then and has never had another severe reaction. I continued to keep my bees on the property, but I also was keeping a close eye on them and him and would not hesitate to move them had he ever had another allergic reaction.

I think this shows just how unpredictable this whole issue of allergic reactions is and having had previous severe reactions doesn't automatically mean one will always have them from that point on. Nor do I assume my son won't have a bad reaction again in the future. Personally I don't think doctors know as much as they come across knowing about allergies and severe reactions. There doesn't seem to be solid consistency in results. Bottom line is, no one knows for sure when one might have a severe reaction to a bee sting and we should assume the worst for everyone else if we won't for ourselves.

It's a no-brainer that if you have a hive of bees within a few hundred yards of a garden, you will increase the bee to flower visitation greatly, thus increasing the likelihood of getting stung when working the garden. However, knowing the nature of honeybees, I would say one is just as likely to get stung by any other stinging insect as you would a honeybee. Honeybees by nature are non-aggressive when foraging, unlike hornets and wasps.

Regards,
Barry


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Barry,

You are correct that allergic reactions are somewhat unpredictable, but you made the decision to keep the bees in your yard after your son's reaction. If it had not been your son, but rather your neighbor's son, would you have moved the bees?

We don't have much time to discuss this, the meeting is tonight, by the way.

Pat


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>As for how I found out I was allergice to bees, bees leave their stinger behind, while wasps do not. The bees left being their calling cards.

Then you are in the rare group of people who actually know what stung them. From my experience most people who "think" they were stung by a bee, after some investigation were obviously stung by a hornet or a bumble bee. If the stinger was there then it was a honey bee.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

> If it had not been your son, but rather your neighbor's son, would you have moved the bees?

Without a doubt! Public safety should always come first. I would be horrified if a neighbor got stung by a honeybee and was hospitalized over it. For someone to say you can't prove the bee came from my hive shows a lack of commonsense and compassion. The point is, you couldn't prove it didn't come from my hive either.

Regards,
Barry


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Barry,

I was hoping you would say that. I agree with you completely. Now, may I ask what advice you would give to the Lesinskis? 

Pat


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

As of now, no bees have been brought in. There is no ordinance on the books. But an nuissance petition has been brought forward??? What is the circumstances of a nuisance complaint when nothing as of yet happened?

I find it amazing that one person has been bit by a honeybee four times in a lifetime with no apparent apiaries in the nieghborhood as of this time. Unbelievable odds.

Some seek limelight on matters for attention. Some people hurt themselves on purposes of pity. Some smother babies to be heroes to thier peers when they "save" the very baby they harm. Some are against "god" in any public forum, yet have never been "harmed" by the word "god". Some people petition, protest, and join any bandwagon, that can attach themselves to something of importance.

I say all that because, most times than not there is always more to the story. More to the personal motive. More than is known.

I do ask what purpose it was to invite a person who is seeking bans and ordinances against beekeeping, and even solicits a beekeeping discussion group as to advise in dealing with the situation. I think education and tolerance by the public is needed. But also a defense for beekeeping as we are a scattered group of poorly representated tradesman, that has been constantly under attack by township enforcement and new laws. Many of which were written by ignaorant or terror minded communities. To me, if there is that many people allergic to bees, than the only alterantive would be the total elimination of beekeeping. Just to be safe.

Whats next, asking PETA to the board?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Now that we've heard from BjornBee, who routinely takes the opposing side for reasons not always known, but for sure because he has the right to do so, I will attempt a reply.

Hard to give advice to an absentee. One would hope that coolheaded conversations between you and the Lesinski's, where each one states their concerns and reiterates the others view so both fully understand each other, would result in the best outcome. The guideline I go by is found in the Bible, Mark 12, which states, "Love your neighbor as yourself." This only has an effect if one believes we are called to a greater standard in life by God. If a neighbor of mine became upset and was directly effected in a negative way by my actions or lifestyle, I would feel responsible to go out of my way to do what I could to stay on loving and peaceable terms with them. It is far easier to move a few beehives than it is for a family to move to a new location or expect them to drastically alter their lifestyle to accommodate my hobby. This is not the Lesinski's livelihood so their survival doesn't depend on these bees. And if it did, they would not be able to keep enough hives on their property, legally, to support an income.

I agree with BjornBee that in general, the public is woefully under educated regarding bee behavior and there are clear cases where the public and officials have over-reacted and caused undue restrictions on the beekeeper. However, in this case, from what I've read, it's a case of who's "rights" should be preserved. The one question we all would have to ask ourselves is, could we live with ourselves if my neighbor informed me ahead of time that she was allergic to honeybees, and one day you found out that neighbor died from a honeybee sting. And save all the "alarmist" accusations. Prior knowledge to a potential problem weighs heavily in the laws of our land. I think the Lesinski's would be assuming a giant liability should the bees be kept on the property.

Regards,
Barry


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Hello Flowergirl,
While I hate to see more regulations about bees I feel that you must be protected. My son is allergic, at least to wasps. He had an ER visit and must carry an epipen. This, as many people don't know is not a panacea. Epinephrin is strong medicine with side effects and should be witheld until absolutely needed. (keep some liquid Benadryl around as a half-measure).
Beekeepers, with their close experience with being stung, tend to deny this "reaction stuff" in others. I think the neighbors don't really believe you. Now it's become a power struggle. It strikes me that , being forwarned, and still placing bees next to you...these neighbors would be wide open to legal action should you be injured. This, whether it's their bees or not that sting you. That would certainly turn me off if I were stubborn. 
This must be said. A hive of bees an acre away is not as terrible a threat as you imagine. 80,000 sounds like a lot but there's usually less and most of them are in the hive. In the spring there's a lot less. You really have to work to make a foraging honey bee sting you. A light veil and some gardening gloves would be a partial solution if you do not prevail. After all, it is your allergy.
A local school banned peanuts in any form because 1 girl was allergic to them. It's a similar problem.

Dickm 

[This message has been edited by dickm (edited April 26, 2004).]


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Bjorn Bee,

First, I was invited to join the board by Barry to present my side of the issue, after some disparaging and false comments were made about me by other members on this board. I agreed to join because I think there is a need for education and understanding on this issue. We were having an informative and civil conversation. I am not seeking an ordinances against beekeepings, that was an error by the reporter. My motives are simple: I want the beekeepers to locate the bees down the street so I won't have to stay indoors all summer. FYI, I have not been stung since I have lived at this address.

Barry promised me the discussion would be civil. I will report your post to him immediately, as it violates the board rules requiring all posts to be civil.

Pat


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2004)

Hello again

First, it is commendable that you are willing to place yourself in the midst of the opposition.

One thing to consider is this: I know the neighbors may seem like jerks and are putting you out so you can't go outside. 

Have you tried putting up with the honeybees for a while to see how it does? Have you talked to the neighbors about if the bees become a nuisance/threat? If they thought that their neighbor would die because of their bees, they wouldn't put them there. If their bees threaten the neighbor, they would probably be happy to move them.

I know if my neighbors had a real issue that I couldn't solve by moving the bees/fences/watering cans, I would definately move them.

I guess my feelings is that you are inconvenienced, but sometimes things turn out different than that we fear. Is it worth the fight? Maybe it is, but then again maybe you might find out that its not.
Either way, there will always be bees around.

my advice for the Lesinski's? Move. I understand how you feel, but I also can understand how they feel.


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Kookaburra,

The problem with a trial period is what if I am stung
and have an anaphylactic reaction. They do not appear concerned about my health issue at all,
which is why I had no choice but to go to the town.

I think the gentlemen who said it is like a peanut allergy in school is correct. The difference is peanuts
don't fly.

Pat


Have you tried putting up with the honeybees for a while to see how it does? Have you talked to the neighbors about if the bees become a nuisance/threat? If they thought that their neighbor would die because of their bees, they wouldn't put them there. If their bees threaten the neighbor, they would probably be happy to move them.

I know if my neighbors had a real issue that I couldn't solve by moving the bees/fences/watering cans, I would definately move them.

I guess my feelings is that you are inconvenienced, but sometimes things turn out different than that we fear. Is it worth the fight? Maybe it is, but then again maybe you might find out that its not.
Either way, there will always be bees around.

my advice for the Lesinski's? Move. I understand how you feel, but I also can understand how they feel.


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## scsasdsa (Jan 23, 2004)

I AM UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND why anyone would want to live in such a place where you can look out your window and into your neighbors window unless it be family, let alone move to this type of area and attempt to keep Bees this is obviously not a good situation. Granted this type of neighborhood may be a close nit group but I for one could not abide living where my neighbor can dictate what and how I conduct my affairs on my own property. This country was founded on the premise that we are all endowed with certain inalienable rights among those being LIFE, LIBERTY AND PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. Being THAT I FEEL beekeeping falls under pursuit of happiness I would consider this to be unconstitutional but then again I would not willingly choose to live where my closest neighbor could be hit by a stone thrown by my hand in any direction.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Flowergirl,
Please help me in pointing out what part of my comments were not civil. (Keeping my comments in context of course.) Then maybe I can "report" to Barry also about any misunderstandings. Or am I to assume that because my opinion is "opposing" as Barry already pointed out, deems it to be uncivil in some manner?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

<< I do ask what purpose it was to invite a person who is seeking bans and ordinances against beekeeping, and even solicits a beekeeping discussion group as to advise in dealing with the situation.>>

As it turns out BjornBee, I invited Pat to the Board. What a shame if a group of over 1000 beekeepers can't give constructive input to a dilemma as this. I have enough faith in the membership here to know good advice will come forth.

<< To me, if there is that many people allergic to bees, than the only alterantive would be the total elimination of beekeeping. Just to be safe.>>

Now your flying off the handle and making extreme comments. No, not total elimination of beekeeping, but certainly moderate protection for those living in close communities. It no longer is just your right when what you do affects others. I have a situation going on right now that I am dealing with. My neighbor (actually a liquor store across the street as I live right near downtown) is infringing on my right to not see lewd acts in public. I don't mind him making a living and abiding by the laws that we all must submit to. However, I, along with my kids, witness people getting out of their cars, walking over to the dumpster, taking a piss, and then buying their liquor and leaving. I just moved here a few months ago and the police and I are becoming well acquainted. The police said the store owner is responsible to police his own parking lot and make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen. If it continues, the liquor license won't be renewed.

scsasdsa wrote:

<<This country was founded on the premise that we are all endowed with certain inalienable rights among those being LIFE, LIBERTY AND PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.>>

Yea, and back in those days, if you didn't like what your neighbor did, you just shot him. Quoting one line from the Declaration of Independence like this is taking it out of context. The very words that follow it are:

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

So sure, you have your rights for happiness, as long as they don't conflict with the laws of the land that are instituted by our Government whom we elect. Our country sure lacks when it comes to community.

Regards,
Barry


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Flying off the handle. Lets review. There is no law being broke as there is no ordinance as of this time. Meaning no prior disturbance existed. No on has been injured by thier bees. and yet a nuisance complaint has been brought forth. Fear is not justification for limiting another persons right. A percieved or imagined threat is good enough to limit this persons right as the law states at this time? What country do we live in?
I said more to the story exists. And lo and behold, the story writer is now wrong about the facts...after I questioned them. As stated by flowergirl.

Barry,
I have taken opposite sides on many issues. I'm for the action in Iraq, I do not like PETA's tactics, I have questioned erroneous statements in "un-named" comments by other members of this board, I don't think we need the UN's approval, and yes I questioned a persons request from this site to help in going to a township/zoning in an attempt to limit another beekeepers hobby, when no laws been broken or harm has come from the hives in question. If I had to do it all agin, I would. Sorry if you are on the other side. It must irritate you, for you to comment in a negative way concerning my contribution to this forum. I'll try to limit myself in the future to make you happy. I just personally hate sheep. And I hate blind sheep even more.

My support and best wishes to the Lewsinski's tonight, and for every beekeeper, no make that every person, trying to stop from being persecuted, prior to any law being broken or harm being felt. What country are we from anyways????


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## clintonbemrose (Oct 23, 2001)

If it were me as the beekeeper I would find a better place for my hives because I believe the neighbors about not wanting the hives in the neighborhood and being very adiment about it. Some people have lifethretning reactions to bee stings and I like to get along with my neighbors. I say this as a frient to all. 
Clint(with 505 hives)

------------------
Clinton Bemrose
just South of Lansing Michigan


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Well BjornBee, when you make outlandish remarks about someone's motive and infer it to be the case here, I wouldn't take kindly to it either. I see no evidence that such ulterior motives are at play here. Civility has nothing to do with one's opinion or right and wrong. It has to do with the way we conduct ourselves. 
1. Courteous behavior; politeness.
2. A courteous act or utterance.


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

scasacsa,

If the Lesinskis bees were going to stay on their property, I would not have a problem. But the corrollary to the right to do what you want on your property as long as you do not interfere with the use or enjoymeent of your neighbor's property or create a health issue. The bees are going to be in my
yard, endangering me and preventing me from enjoying and maintaining my property. Both sides have property rights here. 

You are also right that this is not a good place for bees. It is a subdivision. We all have small one acre lots, there are lots of children and dogs and other animals around. 

I didn't ask to have this allergy. I would prefer not to have it, as I love nature. But this is who I am. Why the Lesinskis didn't check with their neighbors before moving into the neighborhood is a good question.

Pat


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## Andy (Jun 12, 2003)

Bjorn Bee, what's wrong with sheep, my Mama was a sheep.
Seriously, I wonder why they told their neighbors they were bringing in bees? I wonder if they would have ever known? They could probably, if they wanted flowers, plant flowers that wouldn't attract bees, such as roses. 
I can sympathize however, I am allergic to vespids, but if I'm going to die for a bee, I would rather it make honey.
Doesn't sound like much of a place to live, let alone keep bees.


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

Some of us are just more sensitive to bee stings than others (some of this group even claim to be allergic). However, there is another group of people that are truly allergic to bee stings and for them, it is a life threatening danger. There are even enough people allergic to the smell of peanuts that they no longer serve them on airplanes.

I do not think there is a right or wrong side to this story. Once the differences between the neighbors reached the point that they went looking for legislative assistance, it became a no win for the guy wanting to keep bees in his backyard. 

After being confronted with the problem, he would have to be fairly dumb to place 'FlowerGirl' at risk and face potential law suits in this day and age (there are about as many suit happy lawyers as there are bees). The potential of disagreeable neighbors and control freak subdivision homeowner associations are what led me to buy in the country. 

My recommendation would be move the bees to some friends location - then after the honey crop give a jar of honey to all the neighbors. Maybe even get an observation hive and do a few presentations. Eventually things may change - as long as no laws are passed.


[This message has been edited by JohnBeeMan (edited April 26, 2004).]


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Since I do make my living (such as it is ) from beekeeping,moving a yard of bees at the wrong time can cost me a lot of income.For one or two hives to be moved would not be any big deal for me and I would just do it to keep the peace.Ask me to move 50 and there better be a **** good reason.I can see why they want to make an issue of it but that isnt where I would pick my fight.My philosophy is if my neighbors have a problem with me lets talk and work it out.Go to the law first and I will fight you.Sounds like you tried to work it out with them and offered a reasonable solution.They should put them at the other place.
Also I was careful not to say that YOU werent allergic.But if there are 2 million people allergic to bee stings there must be 20 million who think they are because they had a bit of swelling.Whenever someone tells me they are allergic(quite often)I ask a few innocent questions .Most often they just had a normal reaction,not the life threatening symptoms of the truly allergic.I know a couple of people who really are and its no joke. 

[This message has been edited by loggermike (edited April 26, 2004).]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If the Lesinskis bees were going to stay on their property, I would not have a problem... The bees are going to be in my
yard, endangering me and preventing me from enjoying and maintaining my property. Both sides have property rights here. 

Not to disagree with that. But I had bees in several cities over many years and only had one complaint. I wasn't home at the time and my daughter went over to talk to the neighbor. He had some white sugar all over the table next to his grill where he was BBQing. He said my bees were bothering him. My daughter pointed out that the bees that were there were only after the sugar. She then pointed out that we have buckfasts and that these were all Italians and Caucasians. She also pointed out that you can tell where they live by where they fly when they leave. During the conversation a lot of bees came and went and eventually one of the Buckfasts showed up. My daughter got it to crawl on her finger and brushed the hair on it's back while explaining that this was the only bee that was ours and sure enough when it was done getting sugar it flew straight back to my yard. The point is, though, although my hive was only 150 yards away most of those bees were not from my hive. I don't think the bees from my hive made any significant difference in the amount of bees in his yard. Even with him providing free food for the taking with the sugar on the table outside.

I sypathize about your concerns. But bees exist in the real world in numbers that are probably going to be fairly constant in your yard regardless of the neighbors having a hive or not. I probably do notice a difference in my yard since I have about 20 hives here.

I do hope you and your neighbor get this solved and I am sorry that you are going through this.


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Thank you all very much for your thoughtful comments. It helps me to understand the beekeeper
perspective. I feel as though we are not speaking the same language. What is sad is that I invited these
same people into my home last Christmas. I fear that
the damage to the neighborhood is irreparable. I hope I am wrong. 

I am hoping they will accept the proposal of the gracious lady down the street. I'll let you know what happens, then I promise I will leave


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## NHbees (Feb 10, 2004)

Sometimes I should just keep quiet, and other times I can't. Inasmuch as the neighbors need to recognize the allergy this poor woman suffers from (and I do believe you) they also have a right to keep the bees on their property, provided they do not interfere with their neighbors. 

Now with that said I can't help wonder why this woman, who is deathly allergic to bees, would keep any gardens on her property that would attract bees or hornets or wasps. If I were her I would have the most beautiful lawn with no weeds and no flowers, unless she found some that won't attract any type of bee. If she were to maintain her yard this way then no bee would care to wander into her yard, even if their were 10 hives next door. In case no one has noticed bees look for nectar and pollen, remove them and you will remove the treat of seeing bees.

We all know that even if the neighbor moved their hives, bees are going to go to this lady's flowers from somewhere, and she still has the potential to get stung. I am quite sure that she has seen a bee or hornet or wasp eating nectar from her flowerer's before, yet she still chooses to raise flowers regardless of her allergy.

It is tis society that puts the blame on everyone else that really gets me, if she is so gosh darn afraid of bees why does she have a garden? when she eliminates the attractant from her yard she will not get any bees, its pretty simple, this is not the neighbors fault, this is her CHOICE to keep flowers. She should not blame the neighbor when she is actively inviting the bees in!


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

Wow. Interesting to see such passionate discussion. The mysterious Barry so many times over.

I think inviting opposing points to the table is important for any problems. Good for you Barry. Wish the Lesinskis would have chimed in. I am curious what laws are on the books for such issues.

I think some of the points, even sarcastic ones are important. They kind of reduce things to ridiculousness (some fancy term for that).

I think that neighbor with problem took resonable approach. I would consider moving my bees, especially with a good yard nearby. But I am approaching a point where I am a sideliner not a hobbyist. I live in an area without zoning on purpose. Then again there is no leash law, and I have to take care of stray pit bulls from time to time (though I am not into guns enough to ride around with them in my truck with my 3 yr old daughter in the truck while I check bees. But I loved the gun discussion. When will these folks start the gun part of beesource?)

I think there is too much @#%$*&^ politeness in the world. Too much prozac, too many people afraid to step out of line. Too much narrow mindedness. Too many people that think they are allergic to honeybees. Too much editing of real thoughts. These are issues that we are all passionate about SO BE PASSIONATE!

If someone is bright enough to be a lawyer and find good beeyards, surely they could get allergy shots. Apiaries nearby or not, has to be worth it.

Interesting that people with allergies want to consume local honey and bee pollen.

I think all beekeepers should make mead. Age it well and share it with your neighbors as you explain how bees are not defensive when they are not protecting there house! In the time I have been a beekeeper I have not been stung without actually working a hive. Barry, tell your kid to wear sandals and stop worrying/watching.

Property rights are important. What is the difference between pit bulls roaming my land and honeybees roaming your land? If I can shoot the pit bulls, can you do something to the bees? The commercial beekeeper I work with swears that the big guys in the bee industry poison hives that move in on theire territory. If you moved within a mile or two of folks he knows, watch out. Perhaps flowergirl could handle things similarly? Then all the feral hives within 8 miles would die also...


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Barry,
I have already asked flowergirl to qoute or spell out any uncivil comments I had made. None are coming. My comments were in making a point and should be taken in context. I will also ask you to point out my "outlandish" comments and accusations. I see none.

Think about this.

The first time someone said, I don't want a gun in my community. Nobody probably took it serious. But look at where we are today. Some want them all taken.

The first time someone said, I don't want god referenced in public, nobody probably took it serious. But look where were at today. Some want god eliminated outright. I'm waiting for the day someone says we should not see churches or thier signs from taxpayer funded roads, as they are offensive. And thats not crazy talk in this country.

The first time someone said, I dont want hunting in my community, nobody took it serious. But look where we are today. Anti-gun and anti-hunting groups finding alternative methods with endangered species, off limit protective areas and the like to limit and halt hunting. 

The first time someone said I dont want bees in my community, nobody took it serious. But look where we are today. Most communities including my own, having zoning laws passed to stop beekeeping although nobody has died in recorded history in this township from a bee sting. The only complaint made by anyone was in reference to bee poop on his car.

In all these examples are groups of people, like PETA, sierra club, gun control, and the like, who use alternative methods to slowly change laws over time one community at a time. It was mentioned about 2 million people with allergic symptoms, and we are discussing one case, with pending results for one community. If this were duplicated by and somehow manipulated by a group such as PETA, that anybody with severe reactions could get beekeeping banished, you figure with the numbers already qouted, what would happen to beekeeping. To say or question that there may be alternative motives, whether personal or more, is not out of line. 

Nothing amazes me on this site anymore. I guess helping someone on a forum with 1200 diehard beekeepers, with advise on how to keep beekeeping out of her community is just another example that makes me shake my head.


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## Terri (Apr 14, 2003)

I think that I quit reading this thread too soon. I didn't feel that I had anything to say until Flowergirl showed up, but now I do.

Some people will not believe that there is a serious problem unless you are in a wheelchair or are vomiting. I don't know why, they just will NOT! 

I include people who expect a person with inch thick glasses to be able to see when they take them off (I've seen it happen often), people who choose to believe that nobody NEEDS air conditioning (5000 people died of heat in Italy one year alone before people started air conditioning their homes), "ladies" who insist that a child eat a cookie even AFTER he tells her he has a peanut allergy (a 9 year old child died in our comunity some years back after a lady browbeat him into eating a peanut cookie AFTER he said he was allergic and could not), and people who are honestly allergic to bee stings.

Flower girl, I have been on both sides of the fence. My lifelong "bee allergy" turned out to be a yellowjacket allergy. But, growing up with even THINKING that I have a bee allergy has taught me a few things.

A 6' wide SOLID fence between his hives and your yard will do a pretty good job of keeping them out of your yard, *IF* you have nothing that will ATTRACT the bees. No clover, no mint, no hummingbird feeders full of syrup. Roses, lilacs, and other flowers that bees can't use are fine. Honestly a solid fence will keep them out. They will fly up to get over the fence, and then fly straight out OVER your head. 

Unless your deck is raised? Then, put a solid barrier on the side facing him.

I am going to assume that you know better than to hit at a bee that hovers near you. If you have only been stung 4 times in a few decades of life, you likely know better. If a bee hovers, I used to quietly back away. He won't follow forever. If a bee landed on me, I used to just wait until he left.

Lastly, a pox on the house of the gent who thinks that other peoples problems are funny. In a perfect world, HE would be building a 6' fence around his bees so that they would not bother the neighbors. In fact, many communities insist on it. If he didn't want to, then he should have taken up the kind offer of the gent with the goldenrod.

I know that you are angry, I would be too at their attitude. They are jerks. But, bees forage far afield, and they don't stay where there is no food for them. And, with a tall fence they WILL fly over you and yours. (Sting allergies are hereditary, you may want to have your kids tested). 

Last, but not least, I THINK that they have recently improved the bee sting desensitization shots, so that they are no dangerous. I know that they used to be. 

You might want to check into this, many insurance plans now pay for them, now. Peace of mind is a wonderfull thing. 

Good luck.

[This message has been edited by Terri (edited April 26, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Terri (edited April 26, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Terri (edited April 26, 2004).]


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Terri,

Thank you for your support and helpful comments.
I also thank others who have been able to discuss this matter in a constructive manner without impugning my integrity and motives.

BjornBee, I thought Barry did a good job of pointing out the lack of civility in your messages. Barrry, you promised if I joined the board that you would not allow civil comments. I realized that you have tried, but I feel as though I have more than enough of people like BjornBee right next door. I am going to 
remove myself from this list, as it appears my presence is upsetting to some of your members, but if any of you wish to continue this discussion in private, please feel free to e-mail me directly, as some of you have already. 

I just don't understand why some beekeepers are willing to put their bees above human life and neighborly relations.

Take care everyone and happy beekeeping.

Pat


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## Nancy (Jun 27, 2003)

A one acre lot is not a small lot. In my town, people have hives on lots that are 50 x 100 feet. As in several hives, next to people allergic to bees without problems. I'll bet there are lots of hives in the neighborhood that you dont see but exist - on top of apartment buildings or flat topped houses or stores, in the garages, next to the houses or garage etc and these are the ones put there by the owners. Then there are the hundreds if not thousands of feral bees, wasps, hornets etc that live without people managing the hives that are also in Flower Girl's neighborhood.

THe bottom line is that this woman is as likely to be stung with bees next door as with bees a mile away. I think I would have moved to the neighborhood first, been a good neighbor first, planted columnar arborvitae between my house and the neighbor's first (living fence) and *then* brought in bees whose hives are painted the same color as my house and outbuildings. 

A local lawyer & beekeeper mentioned that no registered hives have been successfully litigated against in my state. They are part of the 'home economics' section of the local county fairs, not 'livestock'.

I think the new members of the community were too open with their beekeeping ideas before they 'fit in' in the community. The community was already looking at them sideways as they are new, and bees are an issue that can be problematic. I know - I have a neighbor like 'flower girl' but most of the town would stand by this neighbor against all comers unlike the Boston issue where the split is even. This neighbor gave me her left over house paint for my hives. Difference is the speed in which the bees arive and how much discussion/education comes beforehand. 

With a moniker like 'flower girl' - well, isnt she asking for trouble? Maybe she should get rid of her live flowers & put in plastic ones. If you grow flowers, you will attract stining insects, even if the beehives are miles away.

Nancy


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Barry,
Did you invite the Lewsinski's to join this discussion? I sure would like to hear their side of the story. As evidenced on this forum most beekeepers are very reasonable and respectful of other's rights. I think it's disingenuous for "flower girl" to be so concerned about being stung by a bee yet maintain an environment that attracts bees. Where is the common sense in that? I don't doubt that she is allergic to bee stings, but is this the whole truth behind her motivations?


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## TAWoods (Jul 24, 2000)

Flowergirl- Please consider this article. 

"According to this report beekeepers who were previously not hypersensitive to bee or wasp stings took anti-inflammatory drugs and became hypersensitive. In one of the cases the patient had to be hospitalized. After the patient discontinued taking the drugs, the immune system recovered and only the usual local reactions occurred from the bee and wasp stings. Beekeepers should think before they begin any kind of treatment with anti-inflammatory drugs that contain ibuprofen, naproxen, fenoprofen, sulindac, piroxicam, ketoprofen, tolmetin or suprofent. "
http://www.beevenom.com/Beevenomallergy.htm 

I believe this to be true, since I have lived through a reaction while using Ibuprofen. I now using just plain old aspiran and I have only a local reaction . 

-Bill


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

And she hasn't been stung in eight years, she doesn't know the real extent of her allergy. Peoples reactions change over time, sometimes for the better or worse. 

If she really wants to resolve this matter she should get a really good sting, and a really bad reaction and then she would have the ammunition to prove her case and win with no contest.

As it is she is just attracting attention on sympathy like she attracts bees to her yard, by her own actions.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

> Did you invite the Lewsinski's to join this discussion?

I don't have an email address for the Lesinki's, but I did contact the Essex County Beekeepers Association that they belong to and asked a representative and/or the Lesinski's to participate. I heard back from the association and a phone call is planned for today.

As an update, I was told the town meeting last night voted down any restrictions on the Lesinski's bees, 2 to 1. The bees will first have to be in place to see if they really are a nuisance.

Regards,
Barry


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## Keith Malone (Dec 16, 2003)

Hi Pat,

One thing that will not change even if the hives are not placed right next door but instead three miles away is honey bees and other stinging insects will be in your yard. Honey bees will visit your yard especially if there is anything in your yard which attracts them such as standing water, flowering plants that bees will forage on and cavities that a swarm may take up residence in. There are other attractants also. If I or any member of my family were to be allergic to bee stings and realizing that bees are nearly every where, I would get a doctor to desensitize the reaction to bee stings with therapy by giving shots of bee venom in small amounts that is increased every week until one bee sting can be tolerated. I would do this regardless whether there are bee hives next door or not. I would not feel safe anywhere even in my house because sometimes I get bees in the house. There really is no safe place anywhere on earth except where it is to cold for bees and stinging insects to survive. It is in your best interest to seek out a doctor who can give you the therapy you need to survive at least one bee sting if not more. I give my self bee stings because I feel as a beekeeper it is important to keep up my resistance to bee stings. My point is you need to protect yourself in this world of stinging insects and not let it control you and others around you. You may or may not be stung by bees that come from a hive 100 feet away from you but chances are you will get stung again in your remaining life time by a stinging insect that could come from anywhere. I feel the worry should be with yourself and you need to seek a doctors help for the life of you. I can go on and on expressing my concern about your welfare and how I think your neighbors can not help you more than you can help yourself. People must take responsibility for them selves. If you know you are allergic get a doctors help with bee venom.

. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, 
c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ 

------------------
. ..
c(((([
Keith Malone
Chugiak, Alaska USA http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney

Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast;
http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Hello again,

I said I wasn't going to post again, but it's hard not to when people saying nasty things about me. I can't understand how you can possibly blame me for having a flower garden. In the 8 years it took me to plant it, I had no idea that someday an apiary would move in next door. I know this may be hard to believe, but I have very few honey bees in my garden. And believe me, I know what they look like. My two neighbors to the left will confirm that. I do have dragon flies, hummingbirds, butterflies, bumblebees and wasps and yellowjackets and many birds. When I do see a honey bee, I just work in another area. The problem is that with 80K bees in the next yard, statistically the number of bees, and thus my likelihood of being stung increases. I don't know why I don't get more honey bees, but I suspect it may be because I use pesticides that are toxic to bees to control leaf beetles on my lillies. Maybe they come once, but don't live to return again. By the way, I have never been stung in the 8 years I have lived in Rowley.

I would like to continue participating, particularly if the Lesinskis join, but could I please ask that people be kind and respectful and refrain from suggesting that I have some ulterior motive. I honestly can't even think of one. I think this board has the potential for assisting us through this impasse, so long as everyone remains grounded.

Pat


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

Evidently FlowerGirl has accepted the risk of bee stings since she admits to having seen honey bees in her garden in the past. This would also indicate that there are already bees in the neighborhood. So it just becomes a matter of the number of bees that she will tolerate before she has to 'stay indoors'. The fact that there may be as many as '80k bees next door' does not mean they will 'all show up in her garden'. The use of a tall fence even decreases the chances of the bees taking the short flights.

I wonder if she checks with the Lesinskis's and other neighbors on their allergies before planting more 'blooming flowers'.


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Jim, 

I understand that gardens attract bees, but it is these sorts of comments that I find uncivil:

It is tis society that puts the blame on everyone else that really gets me, if she is so gosh darn afraid of bees why does she have a garden? when she eliminates the attractant from her yard she will not get any bees, its pretty simple, this is not the neighbors fault, this is her CHOICE to keep flowers. She should not blame the neighbor when she is actively inviting the bees in!

"As it it, she attracts sympathy like the bees to her garden."

I am neither looking for sympathy, nor do I feel I deserve blame. Why is one person's hobby more valuable than anothers? And why is it ok for someone to let their pets loose in someone else's yard? Don't I have any rights regarding the use of my property? My husband and I have landscaped our property ourselves over 8 years, at great expense, planting a row of lillacs along the driveway, and numerous perennial beds and bushes, which were designed to attract hummingbirds and butterflies. I don't see why I should be forced to remove them because my neighbors aren't willing to do the neighborly thing and put the hives down the street, out of harm's way. 

One of my neighbors called this morning to say that she was so upset up what happened last night that she couldn't sleep. They are upsetting not just me, but the entire neighborhood. Those are the facts.

Pat


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

<<The problem is that with 80K bees in the next yard, statistically the number of bees, and thus my likelihood of being stung increases. I don't know why I don't get more honey bees,>>

Hi Pat -

I can say from experience that though 80K bees in your neighbor's yard would seem to allow you to say with confidence that statistically you would have more bees in your garden, it doesn't work that way. Yes, you will probably have more bees visiting your garden, but not proportionally. I have been around flower gardens (my own property) where bees were kept (8 to 10 hives) and did not have an unusual amount of bees there. Plants will only support so many visits by pollinators. A lot of flowers and plantings in gardens do not provide nectar and pollen for honeybees. At least not enough for a hoard of bees to visit. I found that a handful of bees will visit, but by far the bulk of the bees will be visiting large areas of nectar producing plants and trees. Bees also prefer to work one type of nectar source at a time. If clover is blooming, they will likely go for that verses piddle around with a few scattered plants in a flower garden. Just the way honeybees work.

Regards,
Barry


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Pat, since you will have all of those bees next door I will offer some advice.

First, the most likely attractant to your yard for the bees is water. They need a water supply and tend to be quite loyal when they have found a reliable one. If there is no water in your yard like bird baths etc. they will be less likely to show up regularly. It that isn't practical, if you can put a reliable source at a far corner you may be able to localize them there so they won't bother you as much.

Bees usually are busy working a honey flow somewhere. During times when there is no honey flow (which is usually a whole field of flowers somehere and will probably not be in your yard) they will take what they can get going for whatever flowers have the richest nectar that they can find. These are the times you see bees in your yard. You can pick flowers with less rich nectar and this is likely to discorage them. Bees often won't work many flowers that are not rich enough.

Bees that are foraging (or even hauling water) are not aggressive or defensive unless you go swatting at them. Stepping on them barefoot is the leading cause of getting stung by a forager. Followed by swatting them.

As mentioned many pain killers combined with bee stings cause reactions. I stick with Asprin.

Good luck.


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

Don't use pesticides that is not in accordance with their labeling instructions! 
--
In multiple locations put out paper towels wetted with a sugar syrup solution this will attract the honeybees and as they walk across the Sevin Dust you've sprinkled around the paper towels and track it back into their hives, poof! problem solved within a couple of days. [This should help take things to the next level]
--
The real problem in this whole situation is the beekeeper who advertised the fact they were putting hives in their yard. If they had used a little common sense (which, in situations like this is usually ALWAYS missing - from both sides!) and kept their mouth shut and placed the hives "outa sight, outa mind" then most likely things would have been fine. Too often, beekeepers loose sight that many non-beekeepers view their hives the same as a den of rattlesnakes and no amount of "persuasion" is going to change their minds.
-- 
My favorite story is about the English beekeeper who had a problem very similar to this one. Finally he did move his hive away but left one prominent white hive boxes visible to the neighbor. Well the neighbor kept complaining and finally the city fathers sent the police out to have a "little talk" with the beekeeper. (The neighbor had kept complaining how the bees chased her). The beekeeper assured the policeman he would be completely safe and absolutely wouldn't get stung. So finally the policeman ventured over to the opened hive and peered down into a completely empty set of boxes. Needless-to-say, the neighbor's rants thereafter fell upon death ears. After some time, the beekeeper moved his hive back (this time out of sight) and no further problems were reported. [True story from my friend in Mexborough, South Yorkshire] <g>


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## Great Day (Apr 24, 2004)

"I don't see why I should be forced to remove them because my neighbors aren't willing to do the neighborly thing and put the hives down the street, out of harm's way. "

How far away is "down the street"?


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Here's a question for all of you- Is it possible to contain the bees on certain days. What I am thinking is that I work M-F, so my only gardening days are on the weekend. Would it be possible to keep the hives covered on weekends? 

As for the bees hoarding flowers, several of the neighbors which abut the hive at the other end of the street said that their flowers (ajuga, asters and lavender) are literally covered in bees. If that happens in my yard, I will send my husband out with the camera to document the impact. I have two avenues left, the Board of Health, which the Selectmen recommended, followed by the superior court. I will be keeping a journal and taking photos in the meantime, while I sit in my house. 

By the way Barry, did you reach the Lesinskis? I'd love to see them join the board.

Pat


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Great Day,

Down the street is about a mile, set back from the road in a big field of goldenrod and loostrife. I'm told it makes great honey.

Pat


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As a person who has enjoyed having a hive in my yard for the last 30 years I would greatly miss seeing them whenever I want to by just walking out my door. In fact, I now have a hive in my living room. Behind glass with a tube going out the window, but I would really miss watching them at my leisure in my yard since it has been a source of great pleasure for me for 30 years.

It would by like keeping my dog at a neighbors house down the road. It wouldn't be the same thing.


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## hobbee (Oct 19, 2003)

I must apoligise for my immature contribution to this thread ,I must admit I was trying to be funny and did not consider your feelings.
I have ben stung by 30 yellow jackets while mowing grass which landed me in the ER with 
anaphlyactic reaction,I now have the epipen because of that experiance and that was before I became a beekeeper.My wife and father in law aren't that crazy about my 7 hives


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## scsasdsa (Jan 23, 2004)

As I stated before I would not choose to live in such a place and would not consider keeping bees in such a place.I enjoy my space way to much to even think of living in such a place.If you like to keep "animals" Bees" or what ever this is a form of farming and is best done where there is room. But as far as keeping the bees home you would expect this to happpen about as much as you could expect to keep the neighbors dog/cat or what ever from craping on your lawn, yes there are ordinances and leash laws and people paid to enforce them but you still find steaming piles everywhere. I work at a public school and routinely see people bring their dogs to the school to walk their dogs on the athletic fields and no they do not scoop the poop. Students take PE class on these fields and play after school sports on these fields. The dog owners dont care if someone else steps in it but they don't want it on their lawn.Do you see a patern here everyone wants it their way but life is not burger ****.and yes there is too much government and too many people who think they should have a say in what you do and how you live. I keep Bees, a dog, chickens, Guns, Bow and arrow and many other things not to everyones liking but I live where I can and plan to keep it that way.

[This message has been edited by scsasdsa (edited April 27, 2004).]


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## Keith Malone (Dec 16, 2003)

Great Day Pat,

> Down the street is about a mile, set back from the road in a big field of goldenrod and loostrife. I'm told it makes great honey.
>

And from down there you will still get bees visiting your property if there are attractants on it. From your neighbors yard the bees will most likely be down in the field of goldenrod and loostrife. I would bet a buck that there are other beekeepers somewhere else within the circumference of a mile around your house. Really the more you find out about bees and their habits the more civil you find they are and less afraid a person becomes of them. 

When I first started keeping bees I was deadly afraid of getting stung, now I make them sting me especially in the winter when I find one out in the snow getting ready to die of the cold. Get some bee venom therapy for resistance and learn to appreciate the insects that help our garden grow and the world eating well.

On another note I do understand what you might be going through and if it were me with the bees next door I would maybe move them to that field, but the neighbor does have a point of principal that he standing on, and all the pushing probably will not move him. Don't wait for a bee to sting you before getting the help I suggested, this I tell to anyone who says they are allergic to one sting, this is common sense. If you do not get the help you need it will be just as if you had a death wish, and I am sure you don,t have one of those with the way you are going about trying to prevent a bee from stinging you. If you get stung without some protection it will be your fault for not doing the therapy. I have had friends of mine get the therapy and one even went on to keep bees, it will help your confidence and you will be free of the thought you will die from one small bee sting.

------------------
. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, 
c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ ,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Pat,
Mike touched on something technically known as "Flower Fidelity". When the bees find a good source of nectar they stick with it. Sometimes even if a better source opens up. They won't get sidetracked for the occasional ornamental. It's unlikely that your garden would create a honey flow. They go for volume. He said something else I want to underline. Don't swat at them. There's a good reason for this. They don't see slow motion but are very keyed into fast motion. You're not going to swat them out of the air anyway. It's hard to make a honey-bee sting even when you're right next to a hive, and that's where they have something to protect. My "landlord" on the farm where I keep my bees had one get into her ear. She managed to get it out without a sting. In the field bees are all business. Thanks for coming back on the board. You've added something to it but I can't put my finger on it.
Quit asking people to be civil, you're making them do it with your approach, but you can't demand it. With a thousand people, we have all kinds.
I feel that I have to tell you that some of the resistance you may feel here is due to the fact that you are "hollerin' before you're hurt". All this about 80,000 bees and staying in the house is still imagination. While your anticipation may have some grounds it doesn't merit a war.
Something a little more personal, about anticipation. I have some expertise in psychology. You may get stung again. I assume you are prepared medically. The mental thing is different. Don't assume that the reaction will be the same as last time. Don't panic, breath slowly, walk...don't run. Do some relaxation techniques while you wait for help. An anxiety attack is paralyzing also. Local swelling and pain are normal! As you've read, allergies change. Yours may have.

Hope this helps, and that you work it out.

Dickm


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Keith,

The problem is that my yard is full of "attractants."
I have 14 lillac bushes, vibernum, hollys, and 35 varieties of perennials that apparently attract bees. I feel like a sitting duck. And I don't intend to dig them up, as has been suggested. 

The desensitization injections are worth exploring. 

Listen, my personal goal is to have this issue resolved by Mother's Day which is May 9th so I could enjoy the day with my family. I have a knot in my stomach 24/7 about this. If any of you kind people who have said that you would recommend that they locate the bees down the street would be willing to speak to my neighbors, I would greatly appreciate it. I was hoping they might visit or join this board, but that hasn't happened. I'm not sure it would help, but at least you speak their language. If willing, please e-mail me directly. 

Thank you.

Pat


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2004)

> The problem is that with 80K bees in the next yard, 
> statistically the number of bees, and thus my
> likelihood of being stung increases. 

The statement above evinces a such a severe lack 
of understanding of such wide swaths of basic concepts 
in entomology, botany, statistics, and simple 
reasoning and logic that it prompts me to continue to 
beat this long-since deceased horse of an "issue".

One would think that if one's life was at stake, one 
would want to learn about the "threat" a bit.

Further, if the threat is real, one would be well-advised
to take simple steps to protect one's life, rather than
tempting fate by gardening.

Claiming to be highly allergic while keeping a garden of 
plants knowing that they tend to attract stinging insects 
is exactly the same as keeping the explosives and ammunition
next to the woodstove.

The limiting factor in the "number of insect visits" has
nothing to do with the number of bees within 1, 5, or
even 10 miles and everything to do with what resources
are available that are of interest to bees. (By "resources", 
I mean pollen, nectar, and water.)

There are several terms for persisting in such overtly
risky behavior while at the same time making demands 
upon others. "Contributory negligence", "suicidal
tendencies", and "torturous conduct" come to mind.

If I were allergic to, say, Diesel exhaust, I would be
well advised to stay away from truck stops and bus depots.
If I were to adopt the approach of our correspondent from
the North Shore, I would instead demand that all diesel
vehicles be banned from entire area east of I-95 in Essex
county MA, but still persist in visiting the truck stops 
because I liked their selection of pies.

Truck stops exist for one purpose - to serve trucks. 
Likewise, flowering plants have flowers for only one reason 
- to attract pollinators, including stinging insects.


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Dickm wrote:

Thanks for coming back on the board. You've added something to it but I can't put my finger on it.

Your post made me smile. I'll try to stop asking people to be civil. I can't quite put my finger on why I am here- I think I am trying to understand my neighbors and hope that you may be able to help us
find a solution. 

I realize it is a fear, but it is very real. I think I will
need to stay indoors if they come, until my family assures me it is safe. The fact is no one really knows where the bees will be until they get here.

Pat


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Well,looks like you lost and will have to just 'suck it up and get over it'(as my wife loves to tell me when I complain about something I have no control over)!I was terrified of bees when I was a child and I do remember the fear.So for that reason I still hope the neighbors will voluntarily keep the bees somewhere else.But I think you should check out the de-sensitizing treatment so you can get over this.There will always be bees in this world and that wont change,might as well learn to love 'em.For 60 dollars you can get a beesuit that is virtually sting proof.


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

Pat wrote:
> I have two avenues left, the Board of Health, which the Selectmen recommended, followed by the superior court...
--
So I take it, you've "dismissed" my alternative solution? <g>


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

txbeeguy wrote:

So I take it you've dismissed my alternative sugeestion. 

I'm afraid so.







Besides, I don't want to harm the bees. They are innocent victims here.

As far as the comments about contributory negligent, blaming the victim will not move this discussion forward. I've been a lawyer for 25 years, trust me planting a gardening does not constitute contributory negligence in any state. Until now, it has not been an issue. As I said, I rarely see a honey bee in my garden, and would prefer to keep it that way. I have never been stung at this house either. 
The only danger to me is if my neighbor's put the hives in their yard, which I am trying very hard to prevent. Then I agree it would be negligent for me to go outdoors, which is why I will have to remain confined to my home.

Pat


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Ok heres the compromise(putting on Solomons robe)You get the de-sensitising treatment-the neighbors keep the bees away for a year-then next year,only if the treatment is successful,they can have their bees. My last post on this.Best of luck to you!


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>"As it it, she attracts sympathy like the bees to her garden."

If you are going to quote, use the complete quote, not just your interpetation.

"As it is, she is just attracting attention on sympathy like she attracts bees to her yard, by her own actions."

I should have known better to involve myself in a controversial issue, I don't usually, unless it is on the second admendment.

>I am neither looking for sympathy, nor do I feel I deserve blame. 

My point is that when you could not pursuade the neighbor to give in to your concerns you brought in outside attention with the press and the city by using a percieved allergy as an emotional excuse for forbiding the neighbor to have his hobby. I again say percieved allergy as you do not know the true extent of your allergy as it has been eight years since you have had an episode. Things change, you MAY have, until you are tested you will not truly know. I was tested twenty years ago and went through a desensitizing program. It took a long time but the results were fantastic, I am able to do things I never could before and have not had another attack since. No more medications, no more sleepless nights, no more pain and suffering.

>Why is one person's hobby more valuable than anothers? 

Why is yours more valuable than his? I say neither is more important, you both have the right to persue happiness.

>And why is it ok for someone to let their pets loose in someone else's yard? 

Ever try to keep a cat in your yard? Can't do it, but I wouldn't put out fish in my yard if I didn't want cats in it.

>Don't I have any rights regarding the use of my property? 

The same as they do.

>My husband and I have landscaped our property ourselves over 8 years, at great expense, planting a row of lillacs along the driveway, and numerous perennial beds and bushes, which were designed to attract hummingbirds and butterflies. 

I love to landscape, I have had my yard on the pond tour four years,(not in a row), I am proud of my yard, but I go out of my way to plant things that ATTRACT bees. I plan on removing the lillacs because they are of little or no use to the bees. I am removing the vining honeysuckle too, and replacing it with the bush type for the bees. The list goes on, but I like to plan and plant and grow. I also like change in my life and changing a few plants is not a bad thing.

>I don't see why I should be forced to remove them because my neighbors aren't willing to do the neighborly thing and put the hives down the street, out of harm's way. 

As has been pointed out, just because they are a bit further away will not change the fact that you will be visited by them or other's bees anyway.

I see by the posts since your reply that you have become more accepting of the situation and am trying to understand and work out your fears about being stung. You have gotten a lot of good advise and your willingness to accept it is a step in the right direction. I had a tremendious fear of being stung before I started keeping bees. I used to swell up big and hard (where I was stung







), and now the reaction is much less, the more I get stung the less the reaction. I have always been one to address my fears and challenge myself, and in doing so I have grown as a person and have a greater feeling of being totally free of those inabitions. I hope the same for you.


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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

Hey, Pat:

Maybe not contributory negligence, but is sure is "torturous conduct". LOL.
Ox


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm not sure how to get across the concept, but the bees really don't work flowers close anymore than they work flowers far away. 2 miles is just their backyard. They will forage much further if they have too, but up to 2 miles they don't even think twice about. They investigate that 2 mile radius and know everything blooming in it and every landmark to traverse it. I honestly don't think the number of bees in your yard will be that different with the hive a mile down the road than with it 100 yards away.

I have a huge pear tree that shades part of my apiary. None of my hives are more than 10 yards from it. It's white with blooms every spring (it just got done this year) and I have never seen one of my bees on it. The orchard bees and mason bees are all over it, but no honey bees. Why? Because the bees don't care how convienient it is, they care how much total sugar content they can get and there are more enticing things somewhere else.

You probably won't see any more bees when you have flowers blooming than when you don't either. From my experience you'll probably see more of them when NOTHING is blooming because that's when the bees have to investigate everything trying to find some flowers or some pollen.

Of course you always see more of anything if you're looking for them.

I think you may also start to see that we beekeepers don't see bees as dangerous or agressive. ESPECIALLY foraging bees. Even a mean hive is only defensive of the hive and not many beekeepers want to put up with a mean hive.

If I thought of bees as dangerous I probably wouldn't purposely have 2 million of them living in my side yard less than 50 yards from my house.

Also, having bee hives in my yard, my wife has never been stung. My daughter has never been stung. Only one of my sons got stung and the was the same one who would take nosedives down the stairs. He wasn't quick to catch on to danger. One of my grandsons stepped on a bee barefoot and got stung. Basically of all the people who have lived with me and the bees for the last 30 years (often with a hive 10 yards from the door) only two children managed to get stung. Frankly I, the beekeeper, only got stung four or five times in the first 28 years before I got more hives. (not counting taking colonies out of trees and houses where I got a few more stings while totally destroying their home and giving them a new one.) And all of those I was working the hive wearing dark clothes (a no-no when working a hive) or not paying attention. And in the 20 years before that I was only stung once when I stepped on one barefoot as a kid. (we did not have any hives when I was kid nor did I know of any and I knew the 2 mile radius around my house like the back of my hand). I did know about a colony in the wall of a shed about 2 miles away though. It was my first exposure to a hive of bees. I remember great beards of bees hanging on the outside on a summer day.

So I admit, it's hard for me to veiw honey bees as a threat. I consider the odds of getting stung, if I'm not walking barefoot and I'm not working the hives, to be less than me winning the jackpot in the lottery.


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## hobbee (Oct 19, 2003)

hey Keith Malone ,your links do not work ,I tried ,even googled ,no luck


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2004)

> I've been a lawyer for 25 years, trust me planting 
> a gardening does not constitute contributory negligence 
> in any state. 

Now I get it... only a lawyer could combine such
a misinformed set of assumptions with such outrageous
demands upon others without even a shred of evidence
in support of the basis for the demands.

Well, gloves off then, as we are simple beekeepers 
facing a powerful and highly-educated attorney.

I must warn everyone that this lawyer may be trolling
for some basis to sue her neighbors. Don't give her 
any ammunition folks, let's make her do her own research.

> I said I wasn't going to post again, but it's 
> hard not to when people saying nasty things about me

Stop pretending to be so offended, counselor.
One more posturing whine, and we start with the lawyer jokes!









> I can't understand how you can possibly blame me 
> for having a flower garden.

Because it increases the odds that you will encounter
a stinging insect by several orders of magnitude over
not having one! By gardening, you are putting yourself
up for a Darwin award (if you are in fact still allergic,
a condition that may no longer be present after 8 years
since your last sting.) Your garden is a clear and
compelling example of reckless behavior that no person 
truly at risk of a life-threatening allergic reaction to 
a bee sting would even consider.

> The problem is that my yard is full of "attractants."
> I have 14 lillac bushes, vibernum, hollys, and 35 
> varieties of perennials that apparently attract bees. 
> I feel like a sitting duck. And I don't intend to dig 
> them up, as has been suggested. 

Well, let's see if we can paint a similar picture or two.

If a lion was carrying off your livestock, the occasional 
pet, and random small children, would you persist in leaving
large hunks of raw meat lying about your yard? I'd hope not.

If your vision started to blur, would you demand that the
town replace all the street signs with large-print versions?
Of course not - you'd be expected to fix your own problem
with glasses, contacts, whatever.

> Here's a question for all of you- Is it possible to 
> contain the bees on certain days. What I am thinking is 
> that I work M-F, so my only gardening days are on the 
> weekend. Would it be possible to keep the hives covered 
> on weekends?

The hive would overheat. The bees would be unable to forage.
The weekend is also when your neighbor would want to "work"
his colonies. Don't expect anyone to disrupt their lifestyle
to make your life more enjoyable. Play the hand you were
dealt, and deal with your own medical condition yourself.
There are treatments for conditions like yours. I suggest
John Hopkins, as they have a good track record in the area
of sting allergy treatment. But first, I'd suggest a check-up
at Davners State Hospital to address the other issues you have
raised. 

> I have two avenues left, the Board of Health, which 
> the Selectmen recommended, followed by the superior court...

Expect to be challenged at every turn. Not only will your
opponents ask pointed questions about your own perverse
persistence in overtly putting yourself in harm's way,
but you will find that many well-respected entomologists
live and work within a short drive of whatever venue you pick.
(Will someone please inform her beekeeping neighbors of this 
discussion thread, or print it out and mail it to them? I fear
that they will soon find out that they must defend themselves
against a baseless suit.)

> I do have dragon flies, hummingbirds, butterflies, 
> bumblebees and wasps and yellowjackets and many birds. 
> When I do see a honey bee, I just work in another area.

So you have no fear of wasp venom, bumblebee venom, or
yellowjacket venom, yet you are convinced that a honeybee
will do you in. Please get a clue - ask a allergist about
the relative impact of the venom of each on a typical
allergic person, and don't forget your cellphone so you
can order up the ready-mix to pour yourself a patio that
covers your entire back yard on the way home.

> Why is one person's hobby more valuable than anothers?

It is not a matter of "value", it is a matter of choices.
If I decide to resume my hobby of rock-climbing, do I have
the right to demand that the entire valley floor of Franconia
Notch, NH be covered with down pillows just in case I fall?
Of course not. As I am "allergic" to falls from high places
onto hard surfaces, I should take care to avoid such situations.
No one can protect me from myself, can they?

> I don't see why I should be forced to remove [the flowering
> plants] because my neighbors aren't willing to do the neighborly 
> thing and put the hives down the street, out of harm's way.

A mile away won't help you. Two miles away won't help you.
I think the record for verified bee foraging distance was 14 km.
That's 8.6 miles. Take a map, and draw a circle. That's
the zone from which the "threat" can come, and it matters not
one tiny bit where a bee colony is within that circle. The
highest risk would come from a 4 mile radius circle.

In short, do your homework, counselor. 

Let's review:

a) You claim that you are "allergic" as if this were a lifelong
condition. See a doctor. See several. Get some tests.
Let's have a factual basis for your claims. You may be
pleasantly surprised to find that you have nothing to fear.

b) If you are allergic, let's see some "due care" on YOUR part.
Little things like lifting at least one finger to reduce
the risk you face. Then, and only then, is anyone else
going to take you seriously, let alone consider standing on
their head for your personal gardening amusement. 

c) You claim that you are allergic to honeybees, yet you apparently
have no fear of other stinging insects. This is highly unusual
for someone with your affliction. Again, it undercuts the
credibility of your claims. Massively.

d) You seem to fear a beehive 100 yards away more than a colony
of bees a mile away. Let me assure you that both pose
exactly the same level of risk, and that this can be proven 
to a highly accurate level of scientific credibility to the 
satisfaction of any interested party, including judges and juries.

e) In the event that you are stung, you have a 0% chance of proving 
that the bee came from the hive(s) you fear. Forget about civil
suits. Find some other way to get rich. This one's a dry hole.

f) Stop trying to bully your neighbors. You have a treatable allergy
condition. Go get cured, and stop expecting the world to modify
itself to your whim.


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Mike Bush and JFischer,

I know that there are several reasonable people on this list because some have posted and others have contacted me personally to apologize for the meanesss that some people have displayed. If I wanted to sue my neighbors I certainly could have done so by now. I am trying to avoid that tactic.
I feel as though I am beating my head against the wall with people like you. You see the world in your own narrow way. Believe or not, many people, including most of our neighbors do not share you view. That is all I will say.

I'm sorry Barry, unless you enforce the civility rule, I can't keep posting.

Pat


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2004)

Please be aware that what we have is primarily FEAR.

You fear bees. Not unreasonable. Being beekeepers, we think it is mostly unfounded based on what we know.

We fear people who try to take away our bees. Not unreasonable, but that is how we see people who try to keep us from keeping them by us.

In all cases, fear stimulates responses from the irrational to the extremely rational. Some of us respond because we feel more threatened. Likewise, people who have any other fear will respond in the same way.

By coming on the beekeeper forum, you open yourself to whole ranges of responses, even if it was not expectingly. We do feal threatened, just as you do.

I think your fear, while it is reasonable, is probably unfounded. Since it sounds like there will be a beehive or two nearby, if you keep fighting, you will see bees everywhere, trying to get you. If you cautiously accept it, you will probably find that while there may be a few more bees around (not any more if there are any other beehives within 3 or so miles of you already) they aren't threatening you.

But that is your call.

-rick


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

Pat, 
Best of luck to you in your legal pursuits (because I do expect it will end up that way). I'm no lawyer but I would warn you to 'bone up' on your case law regarding this issue as most of the examples I can recall reading, have ended favorably for the beekeeper. It seems the 'nuisance animal' provisions of most local laws may be your best bet - but don't count on winning...


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Rick,

There is another apiary down the street about 3/4 mile. All of the abutters I spoke with have been stung, some multiple times. One was mowing his lawn. Anyone within a 1/4 mile who has a garden can't sit outside during the summer. One lady had to dig up her asters by her front door because they were covered with honey bees. As I said, we haven't seen many honey bees, possibly because of the pesticides I use in my garden.

You are right, part of the issue is fear. When you have a 60% chance of anaphlyactic reaction, you'd be afraid too.

By the way, honey bee venom is chemically different from wasp or yellow jacket venom. It has more protein which is why honey bees killl more people in the US than any other biting insect combined, including snakes.

Pat


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Pat,
You did it again. You asked for civility. It makes me picture you as an infirm old lady who asks people to tea. "A lady is a person in whose presence a gentleman isa gentleman". I suppose an attorney would get the habit of expecting a "judge" somewhere to keep order.
I actually have a solution but you won't like it because it requires you to do something. (As opposed to others doing it).
It's a good solution and it would leave you safer than you are now. But you won't like it.
Someone mentioned that bees don't work Lilac. While species vary, there are many beautiful flowering plants that bees have no attraction to. Roses, I think are in this category. Some plants don't put out nectar. 
Let's all come over for a day and dig up all the bee attractant flowers and plant non-attractant flowers. We expect tea at 10 and 2. You will have a more beautiful garden and feel a lot safer in it. How about it guys, are you willing?
Since you are sort of a beekeeper-attractant yourself, I want all my buddies, who can't stay away from this thread anyway, to bury you in a list of flowers that do NOT attract bees. Told you you would'nt like it!

Dickm


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

A nuisance complaint brought against a beekeeper who broke no ordinances, and no harm brought against anyone.

The recruitment, and I'm sure some negative comments passed along the way, in finding 25 people to sign a petition against this beekeeper. Not one of them harmed. Perhaps frightened by your(flowergirls) actions. A great disservice towards the entire beekeeping industry no doubt.

The attention further promoted by the media. They like good stories, not facts. I'm sure I know who called the media.

The unwillingness of flowergirl to diminish the possibility of this "life-threatening" situation, by not having a flower garden herself. This in fact attracts all stinging insects. She, before limiting her own actions, would rather limit the rights to others. 

One good thing has happened, the town board, after probably discussing with the solicitor, came to the conclusion that no harm or nuisance has been proven. This was the correct call as I mentioned. 

Flowergirl has hit upon an issue that many beekeepers have seen. The publics misunderstanding and laws passed without merit. I'm sorry if not more sympathetic ears are awaiting your next post, and as noted, are many.

She now baits her garden with nectar plants and acknowledges she awaits with video camera in hand.

From the start I have questioned the story as being more than what it is. And questioned the accusations brought about against not only a beekeeper but a citizen of the country. As the story continues, more and more is brought to light. The story changes. Now, instead of a "whao is me" person, we find out that flowergirl is a 25 year attorney.
She solicits help from this board for actions against a INNOCENT beekeeper, all the while cruyng FOUL everytime someone says anything that could be twisted as negative. I'm sure while reading this, someone will stand up and cry out "objection!" This is not a courtroom. Its an open discussion. A discussion I hope will be allowed to be followed up in another thread, entitled "what we need to as an industry to fight frivolous claims and local accusations and persecution".

I did not count the posts from flowergirl but I'm guessing 15 plus. This discussion should of ended when she said, "why should I stop my flower garden, the beekeeper should stop his bees. Some lifethreatening issue.

As I said before, in my opinion, there is more to the story, motive, and agenda. I hope this discussion ends.

In the meantime, does anyone know an email, address or tel. number to the local beekeeping club who was involved. Or to the Lewsinski's. I would like to congradulate them, show my support and ask if a fund needs to be established to fight off crap like this. It may be in their community today, but it may be in yours tomorrow.

Someone let me know when this craps ends.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2004)

3/4 mile? and you don't see many bees?
They aren't interested in your flowers. Next door they won't be interested in them either. There isn't enough there for them. They will head out the mile and get the loosestrife and goldenrod.

Yes they are preferencial to certain flowers.
My asters in the fall are covered with bees...wasps that is includeing some really ugly 1.5 inch black wasp, and a only few honeybees. Very few or none in the flowergarden (my wife's).

A honey bee flying around getting nectar isn't trying to sting. If it lands the only reason it will sting is if it is threatened (crushed, slapped, stepped on). The best way to get one off (and the others can correct me if Im wrong) is a puff of breath or a flick. If you flail at it (and that is the natural reaction) it will probably sting.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I apologize if anything I said was construed as disrespectful. It was not intended to be. I was trying to get across two things.

That the difference in the impact on your yard between a hive 100 yards and one mile is probably negligible.

How beekeepers view the "threat" of being stung.

You will be dealing with both and I thought the information would be useful.

Again, I apologize for whatever you found disrespectful, as it was not my intent.


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

"I'm sorry Barry, unless you enforce the civility rule, I can't keep posting.

Pat"---->Give me a break. This is civil. And besides, you could not stop now if you wanted to... 

Read chapter 27 in Hive and Honey Bee folks. More people die from overexertion than honeybee stings. So relax back and read a chapter in a good book.


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## [email protected] (Apr 28, 2004)

While I sympathize with the lady that is allergic to bees, having one more hive in the neighborhood isn't going to substantially increase her risk as there are thousands of native bees, wasps already in her neighborhood. So, to protect her the city will have to eradicate all bees wasps in the area which is impossible leaving only one workable solution. This lady should go to her doctor and begin a program of treatment to desensitize her to bee venom. I work with a guy that had to take this treatment and now he even helps the local swarm catcher catch swarms bothers residents in my city.
The bottom line is there is no practical way to protect her from bee venom. The only practical solution is a desensitization program through her doctor.



------------------
Best wishes
Britt,
Freeport ca. Drain Or.


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

nursebee,

This is not "civil," anymore than what my neighbors intend to do, over strong neighborhood opposition is "neighborly". 

Here is a good definition of being a good neighbor:

When you move into an area and set up residence, what responsibilities do you have as a part of that community? As homeowners or renters, there are some basic expectations. First, we should all show the pride we have in our homes by taking care of the property. But being a good neighbor isnt just about keeping your property up, it also means being considerate of others. It means remembering to not play your music too loudly (both at home and on the road) and being mindful to not use loud tools too early in the morning or too late in the evening. After all, one of your neighbors could be caring for a sick child, or be sick in bed themselves. Remember, after 10 p.m. any excessive noise-- be it music, power tools, hammering or even loud partying-- is not only inconsiderate, its also an ordinance violation.


Some people believe it is their right to do whatever they want with their personal property. However, in reality the freedoms that we enjoy, made possible by those who gave so much, have limitations. Our individual rights and freedoms only extend to the point where they begin to infringe upon the rights and freedoms of others. Since individual interpretation of where that point lies varies greatly, laws like the noise ordinance were put in place to help guide us. But, whether theres an ordinance or not, the bottom line is that good neighbors are those who are thoughtful and considerate of those around them. 

I joined this board to clear my name and to become educated about beekeeping and hopefully to educate some of you about the health issues and concerns of people with bee allergies. Some of you have made helpful suggestions, for which I appreciate. I did not join the board to be insulted or ridiculed. The rest of you have helped me understand my neighbors' attitude, and I guess there is no way to change it. They may have their bees, but are not being considerate of my legitimate health concerns. When one of our neighbors complained because their neighbors dog was running into their yard, the neighbor fenced in his yard at great expense. That is being a good neighbor.

I hope the kind gentleman who called me last night 
posts here today as he said he would. I can't do it anymore, I have a very different view of civility than some of you and I don't think any human being deserves to be treated the way some of you have treated me. Thanks and good luck.

Pat


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Pat -

Was there ever a private cordial meeting between you and your new neighbor where you both shared your concerns and tried to reason the problem out? How did this whole thing start out? Did your new neighbor tell you he was moving in bees himself? Who approached the other first?

Regards,
Barry


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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

With the advent of DNA testing it may be that bees can be identified. save the stinger, or the bee if you can smash it, and compare it to one of your neighbor's bees. While there may be hundreds of queens with identical or near identical genes from AI brood hives, each open-mated queen should produce an individually recognizable grouping (depending on the number of matings) of sisters. 

Pat may have a pretty good case if she is stung now. 

Funny how the world changes. 
Ox


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## beekeeper28 (Nov 27, 2002)

I was going to stay out of this until the lawyer lady started on Mr. MB.....

At first it did sound like that the beekeeper were being a little unreasonable even to me a fellow beekeeper, but as several have tried to explain the (1)foraging habits, (2) the food source isssued and (3) the really unknown allergic reaction... (no recent dignoisis or events) with bees 3/4 of mile away and hardly any bees in here yard during the past 8 years that in it self is amazing. 
Poor guy... this is the main reason that I live in the country... Neighborhoods like Mayberry just don't exist anymore.. Anyways lay off MB he is about the most informed and nicest guy on the forum.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Boo???


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## Terri (Apr 14, 2003)

Flower girl, several posts here show denial in action. Specifically, the theory that being stung is not all that bad.

Well, for you, it IS that bad, so YOU! need to do something about it.

You have apparently lost that fight about having bees next door. Fine. What now?

Will you take the shots and educate your self on bees? I hope so. You apparently do not know that a huge chunk of the honey bee population was wiped out by the varroa mite. We can treat for that, now, so there will soon be a population explosion even if they do NOT move in next door. All of those frustrated beekeepers are going to get hives, now, and the bees WILL! come, no matter WHAT happens next door! 

Even if the beekeeper does NOT have his hives next door, you WILL! soon have bees! 

You can start by educating yourself. Apparently, you argued this case before you knew the facts.

Look up pollination, and apply it to your garden. As I have ALREADY said, BEES DO NOT LIKE LILACS! So, there is NO! point in talking about ripping them oout. 

Most of your OTHER garden plants are ALSO likely to be pollinated by butterflies, not bees.

KNOW! your enemy. Study your case. Argue facts, not fear. Re-read Kookaburras posts.

You are afraid of bees. Fine. But, you need to learn about what bees do ANYWAYS, so that you can protect yourself from all of the bees in the world.

You haven't done that, yet. You do not know what makes bees sting, to start with, and you REALLY need to know that! You ALSO need to know what will bring them to your garden, and if you still think that lilacs attract honey bees, you haven't done THAT, either!

The world is FULL of bees, and now that the varroa mite can be controlled you will see more of them!

This whole mess does not HAVE to be a win-lose situation, though it certainly CAN be if you set it up that way! In the courtroom they are ALL win-lose situations, but YOU ARE NOT IN A COURTROOM NOW, so choose a different path.

[This message has been edited by Terri (edited April 28, 2004).]


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2004)

> I joined this board to clear my name and to become educated 
> about beekeeping 

And you have received a great deal of valuable information
and advice at no cost, which you continue to not only stubbornly 
ignore, but in many cases, attempt to argue.

> and hopefully to educate some of you about the health issues 
> and concerns of people with bee allergies. 

Would you like the NAMES of the doctors at Johns Hopkins who
treat beekeepers who have developed allergies to bee stings?
Would your like the names of beekeepers who have gone through
the process of treatment, and are keeping bees once again?

We don't need to be "educated" on the issue, we are clearly
well-informed. We are honestly trying to help you live in
the real world, where, if you are truly "at risk", you face
a risk that you apparently continue to refuse to even attempt
to comprehend.

> I have a very different view of civility than some of you 

Yes, you clearly do. You threaten lawsuits, attempt to incite
a riot among the members of an otherwise peaceful community,
you attempt to defraud and manipulate the local government with
misinformation and false claims, and you deliberately create 
"negative press", all for your own personal convenience. You 
can't be bothered to even verify the status of your claimed 
"condition", let alone obtain a well-known cure, a simple matter 
of paying a co-payment and taking some time. Boston is one of 
the medical Meccas for the entire planet. You have no excuse.

All the posturing and posing about "civility" is in sharp 
contrast to your actions, which are mean spirited, deliberate, 
and to date, ineffective attempts to bring your neighbors to 
their knees just because you feel that you are entitled to 
force the rest of the world to conform to your personal view 
of what is reasonable and what is not.

Vinny and Lauren Lesinski have friends they have not yet met,
and we will make sure that they can have their hives on their
land no matter what tricks you might try. Similar efforts to 
restrict beekeeping in various places in the past mean that we 
not only have nice thick file folders of legal precedents and
Amicus Curiae briefs, but we also have access to people and 
legal beagles who have played the game more than once, and won.

Long story short, you MAY have a medical condition, and your refusal
to seek a diagnosis, let alone seek treatment relieves everyone else 
of any obligation to worry about or feel responsible for your claimed 
plight.

As one of many beekeepers who lead lifestyles of the rich and aimless,
I assure you that I will be happy to return to my old haunts in Boston 
just to watch you go down in flames on this issue, if not man one of
the metaphorical anti-aircraft emplacements myself.

Give it up, counselor. You have your advice, you have your suggestions, 
and you can't be bothered to take even minimal "due care". As such, you 
are not "safe" anywhere but at the South Pole or on the dark side of the 
moon, and neither the Lesinskis, nor anyone else are under any obligation
to attempt to satisfy your misinformed and misguided criteria for what is
"safe" and what is not.


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

>I have two avenues left, the Board of Health, which the Selectmen recommended, followed by the superior court. I will be keeping a journal and taking photos in the meantime, while I sit in my house. 

Counselor, 

I am sorry to hear that you are so allergic that it prevents you from enjoying your yard. True allergic reactions to stings can be deadly, not just honeybee stings but wasps and wild bees as well. It would be good if you take precautions like carrying an epipen and seeking desensitizing treatment to protect yourself from this unfortunate reality of the world.

You might consider looking at this problem differently. Wild bees are more aggressive and more likely to sting than commercially bred bees. This is because commercially bred bees are line selected for key traits: besides honey collection a major trait selectively bred is gentleness. Having your neighbor importing honey bees with low agressiveness traits to your neighborhood would help spread this genetic tendency to any other honeybees in your area. Excluding them just allows the wild traits to dominate.

Just to help your husband here are some links of bee and wasp photos. This will help you identify all of the venomous insects that visit your property. You will find it educational (perhaps frightening). 

Unless your neighbor agrees mark all of his bees in some way, it will be difficult to establish your evidence against him and convince the court that these are not just any bee from within the 25 square mile radius they can forage in. I believe you mentioned that he had not yet installed bees and that you already have bees visiting your property. All of this will make it hard for you to establish they are in fact his bees.

My experience is that the sting of the wasps are a lot worse than honey bees. They inject more venom and can sting you multiple times. I have not seen any information on the relationship to truly allergic individuals to individual bee species.

I don't know who you should sue over the non-honey bees but and have only seen movies about sueing Santa Claus, none that have taken on Mother Nature so I don't know how you would fare. I believe they lost that 'Miracle on 34th street' case.

By the way honey bees don't sting for the fun of it, they die when they sting. It may weaken your case if they plead self defense in court.
http://troyb.com/photo/gallery/section4.htm 
http://photo.bees.net/gallery/otherbees/bees_wasps 


Thanks for reminding me why I moved out of the city. I better stop, before I drift into abusing the priviledges that Barry has so kindly extended to us. Barry Rocks!


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## Kevin123 (Jan 19, 2004)

>>>>>There is another apiary down the street about 3/4 mile.

Then having another hive 100 yards away won't make much difference in the amount of bees in your yard. 

>>>>>All of the abutters I spoke with have been stung, some multiple times. One was mowing his lawn. 

First, when people know of a hive in the area all stings now come from that hive, mowing the lawn, unless barefoot (which is a good way to lose toes), was most likly wasps or ground hornets which are aggressive all the time.

>>>>>Anyone within a 1/4 mile who has a garden can't sit outside during the summer. 

Thats funny, last summer before I started beekeeping this spring there where 10 hives only 1/4 a mile from our house and another 2 just on a neighbors property whith were abandoned, increasing the likleyness of swarming, and I could sit out side just fine, the only thing that was bothersome was the wasps. I even did some gardening, I never got stung planting landscaping or tending it, there are some plants that attracted lots of bees ( such as russian sage) but generaly you can wait untill it gets alittle into the evening and do what you want to do with it. Bees tend to favor one plant at a time and leave others alone.

>>>>>>One lady had to dig up her asters by her front door because they were covered with honey bees.

Was that the only reason she cut them down? Bees that are foraging dont pose any threat. We have a Red bud tree that is planted in a hole in our deck that the bees really like, you can walk around it with out even getting hit by a bee. They generally fly up and away over your head.

>>>>>>As I said, we haven't seen many honey bees, possibly because of the pesticides I use in my garden.

Which pesticides are you using that don't kill wasps etc. and target honey bees.


>>>>>It has more protein which is why honey bees killl more people in the US than any other biting insect combined, including snakes.

For some reason I find that hard to beleave please state your sources 

Your neighbors did you a favor by telling you that they where putting a hive in, they could have put one in behind a fence and you would have never noticed. With the hive 100 feet away the bees have no reason to sting you to defend the hive. 

[This message has been edited by Kevin123 (edited April 28, 2004).]


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<save the stinger, or the bee if you can smash it, and compare it to one of your neighbor's bees. >>

In order for that to work, she would need to get bees from his hive directly for comparison, and even then they may not be the offspring of the queen currently in residence.


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

For clarification to those of you who suggested that I undergo bee venom desensitization treatments for the next 3-5 years, I would not be a candidate for desensitization because the interaction with my blood pressure medication could itself cause a severe anaphlyactic reaction.

So that is not a solution for me. 

Pat


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2004)

Pat:

Perhaps your blood pressure problem is
caused by your adversarial way of dealing
with every situation you approach.

Regardless, ask an expert on the specific
type of treatment suggested before you jump 
to yet another unfounded conclusion in what
is rapidly becoming a long list of unfounded
claims and conclusions.

High blood pressure... wow, instant karma!

Yet another example of how one is sure to
reap exactly what one sows.

Might I suggest a few weeks in Bar Harbor
for some quiet reflection on life in general?
Not so many touristicas this early in spring,
and the wave action is impressive.


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

You people are unbelievable. Anyone who knows me would tell you otherwise. Our neighbors are a different story. I am a mediator by profession. I look to resolve disputes without litigation. Those of you who think otherwise are simply wrong. But you feel free to make wild allegations about me just because I don't want bees next door for a valid medical reason.

Has it occurred to any of you that not doing the right thing in this situation is what makes people seek regulation? If you could only be reasonable, there would be no need for towns to restrict beekeeping.
This case is giving beekeepers a very bad reputation, probably undeserved,

Pat


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

This is just like trying to reason with a Democrat, it just can't be done.


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## Amy3745 (Aug 7, 2003)

Pat,

I have been watching this post, and I understand your frustration. My sympathy ends there. Please look at things in your life that would enable you to better co-exist with the bees, hived or feral. Better flower selections are available that do not entice bees. These are simple choices you are left with. Help yourself, or complain to everyone around you that what happens to you is everyone's fault but your own.

Hope it all works out for you.


Amy


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

Funny Bill, 
I was just thinking the same thing about Republicans! (They're rapid in their beliefs). Who would'va EVER thought a Republican president could 'out spend' a Democrat!


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Funny Bill, 

Thank you,

>(They're rapid in their beliefs).

I'm fairly fast but there are faster ones out there than me









Actully, you haven't seen raBid until you tie into an Anti gun, Solialist, Liberal, Democrat. I'm sure that being from the great state of Texas would exclude you.







(i hope...)...









> Who would'va EVER thought a Republican president could 'out spend' a Democrat!

It has got to have something to do with his last job running that "Whole Other Country". After all, "Everything is bigger in Texas!".


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2004)

> just because I don't want bees 
> next door for a valid medical reason.

WHAT "valid medical reason"?????

You have no recent tests, no recent
treatment history. You have nothing
but your own latent fear from 8 years
ago to offer as "proof" of a claimed 
"risk" you face.

If you "mediate" for a living, then you
need to re-examine your own case as if
you were an impartial 3rd party, and
then you might understand why your own
statements have cost you what support
you might have had from the readers of
this forum.

We have all heard of cases of urban beekeepers who push the limits of any reasonable definition of "prudent".
In those cases, the beekeeper is clearly
"at fault", and is counseled to change
his ways before he or she makes life
difficult for other local beekeepers.

But in this case, you just can't be bothered
to even verify the most basic facts before
you make demands upon others and attempt
to force regulations down other people's
throats.

You must have other income. If your living came solely from mediation work, you would
likely be living in a cardboard box somewhere.

Get a clue.


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## mrbillz (May 2, 2003)

wow!

Pat, I am a physician amd I have practiced in enough different localities in 20+ yeras to corroborate the myth of "allergy" to bees. of the perhaps 30 "beestings" I have treated in that time, 1 was a bonnafide anaphylactic reaction (the victim used an epi-pen as prescribed and was treated and released from the ER) 10 were venom reactions of some type w/ (sometimes impressive) local reactions but nothing serious, and the other 10 were anything else but probably not honeybee stings. Allergic reactions are NOT inherited; (the *tendency* may be. My own father has a real allergy w/ an episode of anaphylaxis (not from me bees - he swatted one). I have bees and have been stung, on occasion, when I provoke them. I have had nothing other than the tpyical local 3-5 day reaction. I am at a loss as to what type of desensitization therapy would be contraindicated by antihypertensive medications. Even so, true anaphylactic reactions are histamine mediated. You could definitely take Claritin or Allegra or Zyrtec which would greatly mitigate a possible anaphylactic reaction should you be stung. This comes under the heading of *your disease, your problem* as has been mentioned numerous times previously. Who would you blame if you get stung and the neighbor doesn't have bees? They are a fact of life.

I do not mean to seem uncaring or coarse, but I too am frustrated by the daily erosion of rights and freedoms for all by a few who somehow feel more important and thereby entitled to force their wishes on others.


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

mrbilz wrote:

I too am frustrated by the daily erosion of rights and freedoms for all by a few who somehow feel more important and thereby entitled to force their wishes on others.

For once, I agree with you completely- that is perfect description of our neighbors.

Pat


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

For once flowergirl is in agreement. Since this was Mrbillz first input to this discussion, I would have to assume that the comment "first time in complete agreement" was in reference to all the other 100+ comments. Some unhelpful and some very understanding. It is nice that this was the first acknowledgement that anyone has said anything good or on a point that agreement could be reached. I'm sure I understand what the lesinski's must of been up against.

To me these type discussions are pure fun and enjoyment. For others who have made an honest and sincere effort to help in some way, now maybe you will understand that your just knocking your head against a wall. Do yourself a favor, and stop. 

As for me, I'll qoute a line from the movie Rocky Horror Picture Show. And let you know that tomorrow morning I'll be waiting in "An....ti...ci...pation".


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## kamerrill (Sep 17, 2003)

I feel the need to jump-in regarding the treatment of a true anaphylactic reaction. Basically, the introduction of a protein (in this case bee venom) can trigger a massive (non-localized) release of histamines from your bodys mast cells resulting in hives, itching, swelling, difficulty breathing, increased heart rate, drop in BP, etc. Benadryl (diphenhydramine) contradicts the reaction by helping to stem the release of histamines  it treats the root of the problem by stopping or slowing down the release of histamine. Epinephrine (e.g., Epi-pens, Ana-kits) on the other hand is a synthetic adrenaline that acts as a vasoconstrictor. Although a bit counter-intuitive, it essentially contradicts the reaction by constricting your blood vessels thus reducing profusion into the surrounding tissue which causes the swelling. Epi-pens do little if anything to stop the release of histamines, which is what ultimately is causing the vasodilatation and the swelling in the first place. 

So what does all of this mean? It means that the best treatment (if you can swallow) is to get some antihistamine in you as soon as you can. If you have a compromised airway administer a .3ml dose of epinephrine which will reduce the swelling and open-up your airway so that you can breath but as soon as you can take some diphenhydramine to contradict the release of histamines. And by all means, if you have this type of systemic reaction go to the hospital to get checked.


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## Frohnho (Feb 17, 2002)

Flowergirl
You have the right to use your backyard anyway that you want, Why shouldn't the guy next door have the same right. The fact that YOU have a medical problem is exactly that....YOUR PROBLEM. Instead of insisting that the bees move down the road maybe you could move your garden and your deck down the road. You could have your dinner and do your gardening about a mile down the road. WHAT ? sounds like a big inconvience ? now you know how he feels Think about this.....you want the guy next door to give something up so that you don't have to suffer in the least.


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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

Fellows, I am going to chime in here with a point. 

The right to use one's property as one pleases is absolute so long as one does not intrude upon the neighbors. You cannot set a bonfire in your yard and smoke out your neighbor. You cannot run ghetto blasters full force all night. 

Growing flowers in one's yard does not intrude. Sending dogs, cats, mules, cattle or bees into someone else's property DOES intrude. 

The only reason beekeepers have not been regulated out of business already is that most are responsible and up until now no one could prove whose bees were causing trouble anyway. That has changed. 

If Ms Flower Girl is stung now she will just save the stinger, get a court order and test all the hives in her neighbor's yard. If it was in fact one of his bees she will own him. The people who sit on the jury will not be beekeepers.

Anyone who deliberately exposes a neighbor with a known disability to undue risk is taking his insurance policy into his own hands. You can holler all you want, boys, but the beekeepers next door are exposing themselves to quite a risk. Not only that they may just cause us all to lose some freedoms. 

There are some things the beekeepers can do to accomodate FG even if they are unwilling to move their bees. They can put up a high fence around the apiary so that the bees gain altitude before they leave the property. They can become very intolerant of aggressive bees, buying queens only from areas where the AHB is unknown. They can give Ms FG warning when they are gong to work their bees so that she can plan around the event and stay indoors or away. They can situate their apiary as far from FG's property as possible. Do I recall that this is 1 & 1/3 acre? They should be able to put the bees a good distance from FG. 

At any rate, the beekeepers are not clean handed in this deal. They have fair warning that their bees are a danger to their neighbor.
Ox


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## FlowerGirl (Apr 26, 2004)

Frohnho,

My neighbors have housed his bees elsewhere for 4 years and both they and their bees have done quite well. In fact, I know several beekeepers who keep their bees "offsite" out of respect for their neighbors. This entire problem could have been avoided if BEFORE they moved into the neighborhood last year, they asked around to see if anyone had a problem with bees. They chose not to do that, so now I am 
the bad guy whose supposed to risk my health, dig up my garden and plant plastic flowers, and spend the summer indoors, as well as my 19 other neighbors so that the beekeepers can sit in their lawn chairs watching their bees instead of driving one mile to an herb farm which would welcome them. And you don't think that infringes on the rights of the neighborhood? As the good dr. said, why does one person get to dictate to everyone else? That isn't my
idea of how to be part of a community.

By the way, I actually have a real, documented and diagnosed bee allergy on a drs. letterhead. My last episode was a "near anaphlyatic reaction." I prefer to take my medical advice from my own dr. who says that living next to an apiary would impair my health and safety. She has recommended that I move if I can't prevent this. 

I don't respond to some of your comments because they are not worthy of a response. Some of you are just trying to antagonize me and aren't really trying to help. I came for education and advice, and all I have received mostly ridicule and insults. It's like talking to a brick wall. 


Pat


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## Terri (Apr 14, 2003)

>I have two avenues left, the Board of Health, which the Selectmen recommended, followed by the superior court. I will be keeping a journal and taking photos in the meantime, while I sit in my house.
.............................................llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll......
Before you argue this case again, remember that doing the same actions tends to end up with the same results. You need more data.

Find out how far away from the hive the bees forage and the percent of the hive that consists of foragers (Newly hatched bees do not fly, they stay home and turn nectar into honey, tend the young, etc).

Then, figure out the number of square acres that are in the foraging area, and figure out how many additional bees will be in your yard and in each of your neighbors yard.

The reason for this is, bees do not go to the CLOSEST nectar source, they go for the BEST nectar source. They do NOT settle for flowers that are near by.

That is assuming, of course, that they are still LOOKING for a nectar source! Once they have FOUND a nectar source, they return with their friends, which means that yards without bee attractive plants will have fewer bees.

Keeping THAT in mind, why don't you take a survey of what percentage of your plants-AND your neighbors plants-will attract bees? This affects your neighbors, also, you know. Some flowers DO attract bees and some do not. Find out how many of the plants will.

The LAST time you argued this case did not work out to your satisfaction. More knowledge might.

G'wan, what have you got to lose?

[This message has been edited by Terri (edited April 28, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Terri (edited April 28, 2004).]


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## Flewster (Nov 3, 2003)

I was quiet but not no more........I was wondering why Flowergirl gets to dictate what is in her neighborhood? Why does she want the special treatment and infring on others rights.....yet claim that they are infringing on hers.........as far as I can see maybe they had both do something.....she needs to mover her garden 1 mile down the road and they need to move the hives 1 mile the opposite direction....that way her problem is solved....why should they move their hobby and not her....what gives her the right to keep her flowers if the bees must go? I guess that I am to conservative to see her point......I don't think government should get involved......it is simple as posted before......no flowers=no bees.....it is that simple........if she really wants a flower garden then she should move it tho where there are no bees in this world......sibera?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Not only that they may just cause us all to lose some freedoms. 

They can have my hive tool when they pry it out of my cold dead hand!


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Oxankle,
On the surface I agree with what you said. But apply them to this story and you are wrong.

Before the hives arrived, before the bees were "invading" anothers persons property, before any potential harm was raised, before any proof of harm or "nuisance", This 20+year attorney, led a petition drive to raise fear amoung the community, took part in a media story to smear beekeeping, and filed a nuisance complaint against an innocent beekeeper and citizen who from the laws perspective broke no laws or ordinances.

Can the beekeeper be held accountable, sure, we all can. Can a nuisance complaint be brought forward, sure when a nuisance is proven.

This is a case of community fear and another attempt to limit beekeeping when beekeeping works in harmony in so many communities.

She does little to limit her exposure to this "life-threatening" issue, yet expects anothers rights to be limited by, at this point, nothing more than fear.

Imagine if this premise was used on beekeeping everywhere across the country. This premise could be related to guns, hunting, religion, dogs, and many more sitiations where someone is in fear or even being offended.

She is an attorney, she should know the law, she should have access to the best books and reference material. But seeking comfort, understanding or help, in another attempt to limit beekeeping in yet another community in this country will not be coming from me. And I hope all beekeepers feel the same way.

As I said, look at how this was reported and played out in the original story. Look at what she has said, and not willing to do herself to help the situation. And remember, it is someone elses problem today, and it may be coming to your community tomorrow.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It might help to reiterate what the facts are at this point in the story. The Lesinski's have broken no laws. Mrs. Watson, and supposedly other unnamed neighbors, sought to have an ordinance passed preventing the Lesinski's from keeping bees on their property. The local governing body voted in favor of the Lesinski's to keep bees.

Now what is Mrs. Watson going to do? All the arguing about how unfair this is to Mrs. Watson isn't going to change the law. Save the arguing for another courtroom if this is the route taken next. At this point, the best thing Pat can do is to accept the facts as they are, learn what she can to best deal with it (what better place to learn than from all these beekeepers), and there have been a lot of good suggestions for both the practical aspect and the mental aspect, cross the line that was drawn in the sand and seek to re-establish a neighborly relationship with the Lesinski's. Somebody has to make the first move to still be neighborly, in spite of this one issue. Kinda like a marriage isn't it? If both insist on their right and seek only to take care of themselves, it won't be a marriage for long. I agree with D. Allen's statement, "It's too bad the issue has to be so polarizing and theatrical."

Let's keep all the other issues like guns, politics, etc, out of this topic. It only detracts.

Regards,
Barry

btw, I never did get a call from either the Lesinski's or the Essex County Beekeepers Association.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Sorry, sorry and more sorry. I really can't get a break. And I don't get it. 

I attempt to relate this regulation in comparing it with other invasion of rights catagories, and this is wrong. Then you go off and make comparision in relation to marriages. What does marriages have to do with this anymore than my comments in making a point or comparision? I think most can relate the issues in this dispute to other everyday issues that effect them through the erosion of every day rights.

I'll think this some more and hopefully it will come to me. 

I guess now everyone can get back to helping this lady deal with this problem. I'm interested in any new concepts, or suggestions.

btw....the other side won the dispute by FACT and LAW. I wouldn't expect them on this site crying about it. Maybe keeping it low-key, modest, and with dignity is the approach taken.

[This message has been edited by BjornBee (edited April 29, 2004).]


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I should back up and retrack what I said. I feel that perhaps the lesinski's and the local club probably have had some of this discussion before and have come to the conclusion, that further dialog is unwarranted or not productive. A very smart move on thier part on NOT coming on this site and openly discussing any matter when they could be facing further legal moves. They realize they are dealing with a attorney and best not open the mouth.

I will keep from making all references to religion in making any future point. Glad I do not have to wonder why any longer, when coming to a beekeeping discussion board, for the last 6 months I had to see an ad for "Passion of the Christ". Didn't see the relationship to beekeeping on that one either. But I'm connecting the dots. I'll get better I'm sure.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Flowergirl,

You've certianly kicked the hive and riled up a few beekeepers:> ). This is an important topic to discuss. Most of America, today, has no direct connection with it's rural past. The practices, sights, smells and other experiences associated with the farm as perceived as foriegn. It's illegal to keep domesticated livestock in most cities. Even keeping a single rabbit or duck is enough to get into trouble in most places.

Bees are not domesticated animals. An observation hive or a colony or two would not increase your chances of getting stung unless they were improperly managed and became a nuisance. Wild bees would move into the area if sufficient food resources are available. You probably wouldn't have known if your beekeeping neigbors had moved a single hive in unannounced.

It is a credit to your neighbors that they talked with you about their hives. They appear to be concerned about the impact they have on you. Yet I can't image any beekeeper putting more than a hive or two on a suburban lot.

Would a compromise be possible? Could a trial or test period with a single hive be possible? Would your neighbors relent if the test proved unsatisfactory.

It's a shame that this has made the news as it tends to polarize the issue.

Barry has stated the core of this issue. Love for one's neighbor is the ultimate motivation and is stronger than any 'right'.

Beekeepers who push their rights will find themselves without any. Beekeepers and honeybees are expendible in the urban/suburban environment. How long would a list of the of pets, plants and activities not permitted by law on our own property in the cities be. Bees could be added very easily as has been done by many communities. And rightly so if bees are managed as a nuisance.

Regards
topbarguy

Well, I've done it. Thought I was answering a recent post but was on a previous page and not on the last page. :> ) Tried to delete it. But couldn't. :> )))



[This message has been edited by topbarguy (edited April 29, 2004).]


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

I just wonder how far this could go. Lots of normal activities produce things that cross the borders of our property. For example, I know some one so alergic to cut grass that she doesn't go out when the neighbor cuts the grass. Could she sue so that her neighbor uses a reasonable alternative (astroturf, low growing ground cover, etc.). Should I sue my neighbor when he lets his field grow up in ragweed which seriously affects my hayfever (requireing a trip to the doctor, and almost the hospital). Should FlowerGirl sue any neighbor who plants a flower because they might attract bees which might fly across her property? Should I sue the neighbor who feeds birds and attracts them to my property where they do their thing on my car?

I think there needs to be some common sense on both sides. It's quite possible to keep non agressive breeds, open the hive only when conditions are not likely to cause problems, provide barriers to encourage a high flight path above the neighbors property. Just as the alergic homeowner can choose flowers that don't attract bees, wasps, etc. And they can avoid other attractants, stagnant water, open containers of pop and trash cans (yellow jackets love these.)


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## Russ (Sep 9, 2001)

Not all disputes can be resolved by Lawyers and Laws. One has to use COMMON sense on each individual case basis and take responsibility for own actions. Where could one move to to get completely away from BEES as they are found in all localites. Enough rambling on. Dale


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>One has to use COMMON sense on each individual case basis and take responsibility for own actions.

That is exactly the problem. We have a person who has lived in a world of litagation for so long that nothing is her responsibility, it is always the fault of others. No one can infringe upon her rights, but she can infringe upon others, even before any action has been taken against her.

She refuses to give one inch (or plant) to help work out any compromise. She continually makes up excuses to combat any chance of learning to live with her fears, unsubstanciated as they are.

It is no wonder that her pleas fell upon deaf ears at the city meeting.


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## Terri (Apr 14, 2003)

"I think there needs to be some common sense on both sides. It's quite possible to keep non agressive breeds, open the hive only when conditions are not likely to cause problems, provide barriers to encourage a high flight path above the neighbors property. Just as the alergic homeowner can choose flowers that don't attract bees, wasps, etc. And they can avoid other attractants, stagnant water, open containers of pop and trash cans (yellow jackets love these.)"
.......................................


That hits the nail on the head, I think. No wilingness to compromise on either side. A pity, too, as technically this SHOULD be an easy case.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Greetings,

However important this issue, it's certianly not a new one. The same kind of complaint occured in Colorado last year. The city reached the same conclusion with some very reasonable stipulations concerning lot size, number of hives, distance from property boundaries, and elevated flight paths. Did I remember correctly?

It was a solution that any prudent beekeeper could live with and should insure no real increased impact on the bee fearing neighbors.

Well, I've got to go now and get that load of pigs. You see, I live on a 1/4 acre lot in the center of town and have secretely kept a little pig in the back yard. It has been such a wonderful experience that I plan to put a half dozen big sows back there. The sights, sounds and smells take me back to my agricultural roots.

Regards
topbarguy

Who will soon will be bringing home the bacon and thinking there's nothing like the squeeeeel of a pig at midnite to sooth a suburban heart. :> )))


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## justgojumpit (Apr 9, 2004)

"I think there needs to be some common sense on both sides. It's quite possible to keep non agressive breeds, open the hive only when conditions are not likely to cause problems, provide barriers to encourage a high flight path above the neighbors property. Just as the alergic homeowner can choose flowers that don't attract bees, wasps, etc. And they can avoid other attractants, stagnant water, open containers of pop and trash cans (yellow jackets love these.)"


Not to mention the fact that the neighbors could bring in their bees, make things as reasonable as possible, and see how their hobby affects the flowergirl. Then they should be allowed the opportunity to make any modifications to their setup to minimize the effect on the neighborhood. Flowergirl should also do some research as to which flowers on her property attract bees, and should put these on her hit-list should the bees become a problem in her yard. Let's see how things go before we talk about bulldozing a yard or keeping a hobby at a distance, all to soothe the qualms of a woman who doesn't even know what the effect of a hive or two would be on her lifestyle.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As someone who had bees in town for 24 years I'd have to say almost none of my neighbors ever notices. Usually the first indication they got was when I gave them some honey. By that time I'd always had them there for most of a year and they realized that they hadn't noticed them yet.

Only once in all that time did anyone complain, as I explained before, and it was obvious that 9 of the 10 bees he was complaining about were the wrong color and flying the wrong direction to be mine. Once he realized that, he was ok with it also.

In all cases there was no noticable increase in the bees foraging the area. I had as few as one and as many as four hives in town. I think if I had more than that they might start to notice more bees and I wouldn't want to make any of them nervous so I wouldn't have more than that. I don't think that more hives than that would increase their chance of being stung, but it would increase the chance they would notice an increase in bees and that might make some of them nervous.

Of course we beekeepers have realized that bees are very single minded. Whatever they are intent upon is their focus and it takes a lot to get them to shift into defensive mode from that mode.

A forager is intent on getting pollen or nectar and could care less about anyone or anything else. A water hauler just wants to get their water and go home. Even the bees in the hive are really only interested in continuing their duties, which is why we can open a hive and not worry about all the bees trying to sting us. But there are SOME bees IN the hive that have the job of gaurding. If they sense a problem and give off the right pheromone they can recruit others to help with the defence. This is really where you notice a hot hive or not is in the amount and speed with which they can recruit others to defend their home. Even foragers from a hot hive are not agressive when they are foraging.

When I extract, once a year, in my kitchen there are anywhere from 20 to 200 bees flying around. In 30 years none of those flying bees has stung anyone in my house. None of us are wearing any protection. These bees are focused on getting home. Not on defending anything. So while they may appear, to the untrained eye, to be frantic, they are not frantic to hurt anyone, but just frantic to escape.

So when we beekeepers have trouble understanding whey people feel threatened, it is not because we don't mind getting stung. I don't like getting stung at all. But because other than opening the hive, bees never try to sting us and I often (once a year) have hundreds flying around my kitchen and none of them have ever stung me nor even tried to sting me.

The one exception of bees somewhere other than the hive trying to sting is when I had some AHB (Africanized Honey Bees) and I had alarm pheromone all over me (the bees marked me) from opening the hives and they would sting me quite a ways from the hive. But even then the other 9 people living with me were never stung by these viscious bees. They were only after me. I requeened them and resolved the problem.

So to us, it seems apparent that fear of being stung, by someone who is not messing with the hive, is an unreasonable fear. It's like being afraid of water while living on a planet that is 2/3 covered with it. You have to accept that water is everywhere and so are bees.


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## Guest (May 1, 2004)

I think that the main problem we face is the
distinct lack of bees over the past 20 years
due to the near elimination of feral colonies
caused by the double-whammy of tracheal and 
varroa mites.

When we were kids, we'd play barefoot, and wear
sneakers only on forays into the woods. It was 
only a matter of time until someone stepped on a 
bee (honey or bumble), yellow jacket, or wasp, 
and got stung. 

We all learned that a sting was no big deal - 
the usual treatment was a hug and a cookie.
Ball games resumed, tree forts were reoccupied,
and excavation projects to dig up buried treasure
continued.

If we wanted to be afraid of something, we could
fear nuclear war, soviet imperialism, and axe murders. 
Walter Cronkite and Edwin Newman told us what was 
important every evening, and they never mentioned 
bees once. Neither did the Washington Post, the 
New York Times, or the Wall Street Journal.

But now, bees are as rare as hummingbirds in most
suburban areas. A bee, any bee, is viewed as an
unusual invader of the disneyfied, Chem-Lawned,
manicured, soulless deserts of grass that sprawl
around every town that has a TV station of its own, 
punctuated with Round-Up laced "gardens" no bigger 
than the master bedroom of the household.

Of the few people who stop watching TV long enough 
to go outside, only a tiny fraction have seen a
bluebird run off a bird 3 times its size in defense
of its nest, over even watched a squirrel puzzle out
a "squirrel-proof" birdfeeder.

No wonder bees are feared, and every 5th person thinks
that they are "deathly allergic" to bee stings. These
same people would run screaming from the first snake
they encountered, and would dial 911 at the sight of
a fox. The only time they see any actual wildlife, it 
is described by a nasal voice saying "Danger, danger
danger" with an Australian accent.


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## Great Day (Apr 24, 2004)

jfischer,

Well said!


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## Terri (Apr 14, 2003)

When I was about 2, I was stung. When my Mother saw it, and saw how quickly it was swelling, , she remembered the family trait of bee allergies and rushed me to the hospital. Good thing she did: as she was explaining to the receptionist I quit breathing and they had to code me.

Nobody thought, during the excitement, to look for a stinger. 

As an adult, I was told by my allergist that it was yellowjackets that I was allergic too, not honey bees. For this, I am gratefull. 

Allergies can be pretty deadly. If I were Flowergirls neighbor I would move my bees. If I were Flowergirl, I would learn enough to protect myself from them. (In fact, as a child I DID!). I would also try to arrange for at the least a solid fence to make the bees fly up, and if he didn't put one up then *I* would to protect my yard. I would also HOPE that I could get him to move the bees, instead.

Flowergirl and her neighbor BOTH have many choices they could use. The BIGGEST problem that I see in Boston is lack of common sense, actually, on both sides

[This message has been edited by Terri (edited May 01, 2004).]


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Greetings,

The public perception of bees that Jim speaks of also impacts that of the beekeeper. People sometimes view a beekeeper with awe, but mostly we are reduced to the wacky or weird. For those who fear the bee, a beekeeper is crazy. That effect hasn't been lost by TV producers who promote their products on fear.

And our assurances to the non-beekeeping public about the bee's gentleness are contradicted by the visual images of us covered with suit, veil and gloves going forth with flaming smoker in hand to work the bees. Such assurances only reinforce this crazy label applied to beekeepers by those who have truely experienced the worst reaction to a bee's sting.

It's often public perception that dictates what laws get passed by our public servants. And beekeepers are definately in the minority regarding their perception of bees. It's a good idea to tread lightly.

Regards
Dennis
When the last parking lot was paved, a wax beekeeper was put on display in the tree museum. And all the children say, "OOOOOHHH" when they see him:> )


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

"If any of you kind people who have said that you would recommend that they locate the bees down the street would be willing to speak to my neighbors, I would greatly appreciate it."

No mention of the kind people who have tried to inform you about honeybees and how the next door hive will not present any more of a threat than the hives 3/4 of a mile away.

"The only danger to me is if my neighbor's put the hives in their yard, which I am trying very hard to prevent."

Many of the members of this board have tried, in a civil manner, to explain to you that the hive next door poses no more of a danger to you than the hives 3/4 of a mile away, or for that matter any of the honeybees that currently visit your flowers. If you came to this board to learn more about bees and beekeepers, why are you ignoring them or accusing them of being uncivil because they do not share your point of view?

"Mike Bush and JFischer, 
I know that there are several reasonable people on this list because some have posted and others have contacted me personally to apologize for the meanesss that some people have displayed. If I wanted to sue my neighbors I certainly could have done so by now. I am trying to avoid that tactic.
I feel as though I am beating my head against the wall with people like you. You see the world in your own narrow way. Believe or not, many people, including most of our neighbors do not share you view. That is all I will say. 
I'm sorry Barry, unless you enforce the civility rule, I can't keep posting."

FlowerGirl, you have shown with this post that you are not reading the posts on this topic with any level of seriousness. While I have not met Michael Bush, I know that while participating on this board he is one of the nicest, most informed, REASONABLE, and CIVIL people I have ever encountered. He is most generous with his time in helping others here, and if you will reread his posts you will understand what I am saying. Implying otherwise about him on this board is definitely unreasonable.

"There is another apiary down the street about 3/4 mile. All of the abutters I spoke with have been stung, some multiple times. One was mowing his lawn. Anyone within a 1/4 mile who has a garden can't sit outside during the summer."

This won't work on this forum. As most here are beekeepers, they simply know that this does not happen.

"As I said, we haven't seen many honey bees, possibly because of the pesticides I use in my garden."

I am unaware of a pesticide that is toxic to honeybees but not to bumble bees or butterflies. But one could exist. I'd like to hear more about it if it does.

"When you move into an area and set up residence, what responsibilities do you have as a part of that community? As homeowners or renters, there are some basic expectations. First, we should all show the pride we have in our homes by taking care of the property. But being a good neighbor isnt just about keeping your property up, it also means being considerate of others."

One responsibility that comes to mind is to inform yourself of an issue before trying to force your neighbor to do what you want. Things I think you should have informed yourself on are:

Honeybees and beekeepers: You say you are here to do that but seem to be ignoring anything said that is different from your preconceived ideas. Also, this should have been done first.

Your specific allergy: I would be much more willing to work with my neighbor if they were willing to ensure that they still have the problem you describe before asking me to give something up that I enjoy.

"I joined this board to clear my name and to become educated about beekeeping and hopefully to educate some of you about the health issues and concerns of people with bee allergies. Some of you have made helpful suggestions, for which I appreciate."

By ignoring those who have tried to inform you about bees and beekeeping, I would assume that by "helpful suggestions" you mean "ideas with which I agree."

"You people are unbelievable."

Even those who have taken time to try to help you understand something they are passionate about? To whom are you referring when you say "You people..."? Some of the folks here have been pretty d****d nice to you in my opinion. Even some of those who disagree with you.

" and spend the summer indoors, as well as my 19 other neighbors so that the beekeepers can sit in their lawn chairs watching their bees"

Again, beekeepers are the wrong group to try this one on as they know it is not true.

I don't think you're being completely genuine with us, FlowerGirl. 

I have a suggestion. Get your allergy problem checked out to confirm that it still exists. Undergo whatever treatment there is to eliminate this problem. Inform your neighbor of the results of your test and that you plan to get the treatment. Ask if, while you are getting this done, they could temporarily move the bees. I know that I would be willing to do this for a neighbor that was willing to compromise in such a fashion. Everyone wins - you get to enjoy your flowers with no fear, regardless of whether or not their are bees next door. And you would probably get some very good tasting, fresh honey on a regular basis!


------------------
Rob Koss

[This message has been edited by ikeepbees (edited May 01, 2004).]


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## sugar bandit #2 (Oct 4, 2003)

>honey bees killl more people in the US than any other biting insect combined, including snakes.

I know it is a little off-topic but was wondering the honey bees quoted above were referring to "africanized" honey bees?

Thank you


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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

Doesn't much matter. The fact is that the African genes have reached our queen banks. Unless we start requeening exclusively from areas where the drone brood has no African component we will all have some killer bee genes in our yards. The bees I have today are much more aggessive than those I had as a kid. 

Wouldn't it be nice if the gooberment could mount a program like the old screw-worm eradication effort? 
Ox


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

Ok, I have been patiently quiet up until now.

Killer bee genes in our yards

As Beekeepers we really need to be conscious of how Hollywood has over-dramatized a.m. Scutellata  The African Bee or to some the Africanized Bee. For Beekeepers to use terms like killer bee genes in our yards will only play into the hands of the already scared USA public.

My family and I grew up our whole life only knowing, working and living with the true African Bee, a.m. Scutellata. Yes, I do have some horror stories from Africa but so far we have not seen any of the Hollywood portrayals of the Killer Bees. What about Jaws and Claws? Lets bury The Swarm with the rest of the trash.

Please let us as beekeepers refrain from using this over-dramatized impression of a.m. Scutellata to describe them. 

I do however support the statement that we should carefully consider where the Africanized Bees have spread and where we buy our queens. Just to let you know Africanzied Bees are now up to and passed Stockton in CA. Makes one think about where they will be by this time next year. Remember it is us Beekeepers spreading it and on one else




------------------
If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## oregonsparkie (Apr 12, 2004)

FlowerGirl, what I have read is that you have your mind made up and you will not change your opinion about bees next door. I understand your fear but I ask that you really listen to these experts on this forum. They can help you minimize conflict. If this goes to litigation your position has been compromised by your own actions:
You are allergic to bee stings yet you plant flowers knowing this will entice bees to your proximity. 
There have been many good suggestions about changing the flower types to ones not frequented by bees - some are quite beautiful.

I do understand your position - you were living there first before the bees but you can co-exist with nearby hives with alittle patience and knowledge. One thing I will say in your defense is bees can get alittle cranky for various reasons. Given your distance away from the hives I can not say whether this generates a greater risk.

If you get some ordinance passed you are not "JUST" effecting yourself but the whole community. You must remember, beekeeping has been around for a very long time and any attempt to curtail this most likely will be met with much legal opposition.

I wish you and your neighbor the best of luck.


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## John D. Smith (Mar 17, 2003)

If I was the beekeeper, I would say that I was "deathly allergic" to her flowers and take action to stop her from having them. This way the bee bait would be gone and he could keep his bees.

This idea is just as absurd as hers. 

My neighbors smoke. I guess I should file a law suit to stop them because when I can smell the cigarettes, my life is being threatened. I'm allergic to lung cancer.


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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

Rob:

I used the term "killer bee" just as the layman uses it. No one other than beekeepers and professionals use the term "AHB". If Aunt Minnie down by the church gets bitten by a horsefly she will most likely think it was a "killer bee". 

Now--I disagree with those who think that Flower Girl's neighbors have unlimited rights. When they establish an apiary in town they know darned good and well that they are increasing the concentration of bees in the area. That concentration increases exponentially with proximity to the hives, so that the number of bees in the air over FG's property is going to be much greater than the concentration even two blocks down the street. This being the case, the likelihood that FG will be stung by one of her neighbor's bees is much greater than that she would be stung by a bee from a more distant hive.

I believe that any beekeeper who establishes an apiary in a confined space next to a person with a known serious allergy is not only careles and irresponsible, but criminally negligent. Such individuals put us all at risk. Cigarette makers too once thought they were bulletproof. 

I suspect that the day when beekeepers could claim "it ain't my bee" is over, and that any jury hearing a case for damages against them will most likely NOT be composed of beekeepers. 
Oxankle


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Oxankle,
Thats the first reference to "unlimited" rights that I recall. Who's been saying that?

More than several people have said that liability would be an issue and we can all be sued if negligence is proven. As of yet, no damage or irresponsible acts have occurred. Only wild claims and assumptions.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>so that the number of bees in the air over FG's property is going to be much greater than the concentration even two blocks down the street. 

In the air, yes, but way overhead. The bees spread out to forage and concentrate in areas where there is a lot of forage. I would not expect any noticeable amount more bees in her yard from one hive next door. At 20 you probably would notice more bees, but mostly when there is nothing to forage and they are searching the area for pollen and nectar. Bees going too and from forage tend to go up and then to the location and up and then back. Of course a six-foot fence around the hive would pretty much insure this.

I think putting in a apiary of 20 or more hives in town would be irresponsible. You are now reaching a level of saturation where the bees are at a noticeably higher density in any given spot within their foraging area. Of course there is an apiary already within the foraging area of her yard so there is probably already what most would consider a high concentration of bees that will hardly be affected by one more hive. Another reason I don't think there will be a noticeable difference in the number of bees.

Besides, let's face it, the world is full of bees. They are everywhere. You cannot go somewhere in the Continental US where there are not bees already and we all know that they are not trying to sting anyone unless they are getting in the hive.


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