# It has not been a good year



## BeeGora (Oct 22, 2013)

Third year of beekeeping and despite setbacks, I'm still enjoying it. I started the year with three top bar hives. First one was started in late March, three days after buying and installing the package I opened the hive to check on the queen and she was dead....never made it out of her cage. I called the supplier and they basically said they didn't have any replacement queens and good luck finding one. Lucked up and found a queen from another bee supplier and she was accepted. However, that hive struggled for a long time and didn't get going good until the spring season was almost over. 
In late April I got two packages that were brought up from Georgia. Both of them were just sorry. They requeened but still struggled and never did much of anything. They mostly ignored the sugar syrup that was offered and built very little new comb (had some one year old comb left from last year to start them off). The first April package died out mid-summer and the second one late summer. I think this was from a poor quality of bees to begin with.
The original package that I requeened seemed to take off in the Fall. They kept a huge amount of workers into mid-November and were bringing in pollen and taking a lot of syrup and some of the pollen patty as well.  Despite all that they only filled up about half of the hive with comb. In the last week their numbers have fallen dramatically but it is that time of year. I saw very few hive beetles this year, even in the two hives that failed. It's been several months since I've even seen a beetle in this last hive but I'm sure they are in there somewhere. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they'll make it through the winter.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Hang in there. If we get a mild winter, you bees have a good chance of pulling through. I'd recommend a sugar brick in there soon, just to give extra insurance that they have enough food. Also provide a close water source for the winter as they will need to dilute the sugar. It does sound like the packages were a bust. I've not been happy with the 2 that I brought in. Make sure you've taken steps to preserve the drawn comb for next spring.

Is there anyone in your area who is willing to do a split of their bees to get you some local ones next year? My local girls have always outperformed the "imported" ones, but it will depend on the beekeeper that you got them from.


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## lawsonst3v3 (Jun 2, 2015)

I'm a first year beekeeper and started with two Top Bar Hives in the spring. My bees came from Baxley Ga and I am not impressed with their genetics. Have found a local beekeeping club that has a member who sells packages and am going to try local stock. Perhaps you can find a local supplier. Good luck.:thumbsup:


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

These are just a few of the problem we see with packages. 

I would avoid packages and look for local nucs or hives. Set up swarm traps.

There is beesource member that tags his name with "friends don't let friends buy packages" 

So that's my advice friend.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Bought three Georgia packages. Two of three had succession issues. Then came the SHB and I fiddled with one making it into a cell builder. Used a Cloake board...and it died off. The first one that succeeded itself did fine. One just did what it was supposed to do. 
Not in Top Bars but same issues. Not uncommon I am told.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Second the suggestion to try and get swarms. Great to get bees for "free" and it's very gratifying. As long as they're not in an impossible location, it's fairly easy and swarm bees are docile, barring any nasty genetics which you can then remove rather than let 'em propagate which is a service to the local populations.

An ad in your local craigslist, freecycle or free ad rag in season can make you a hero with someone who thinks they have a bee problem and you can even charge a bit for it without too much guilt to those that can afford. If you can put out bait hives in likely locations all the better.

I like that - "friends don't let friends buy packages".


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## bw200314 (Sep 3, 2015)

if u are going to buy package bees from georgia u need to buy them from Hardemans in Mt Vernon, Ga or Wilbanks in Claxton, ga. I like Hardemans the best because they have hybrid queens


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

Like others have said, hang in there. Just curious, were you monitoring and treating for mites? That is essential.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

FlowerPlanter said:


> I would avoid packages and look for local nucs or hives.


I believe the op said he was using top bar hives. Nucs are probably out. 
Generic Georgia package complaints paint all the producers with the same brush. There are some good ones. It's pretty easy to assume the failure was a result of poor package quality while ignoring other possibilities.


e-spice said:


> Just curious, were you monitoring and treating for mites? That is essential.


A perfect example. To the op...did you monitor your mite loads?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

BeeGora, I think you may be destined to repeat these poor results if you simply blame the package bees. 

I very much suspect there is an issue with the actual beekeeping or the hive or both.

Please consider that there are commercial beekeepers who routinely buy packages and start their hives from them, and get 200 + pound honey crops from those as standard at seasons end with few failures. If package bees were genuinely as poor as many think this would not be possible surely.

The difference is the beekeeping.

Packages do get a bad rap, and indeed people should NOT buy packages if their intention is to not treat them for mites. Most of the bee breeds sold as packages will eventually die if not mite treated. But if they are treated they are fine. Excellent even, all else being equal.

When people want to buy bees from me to start a TBH I sell them a package as it's the easiest install. When TBH keeping first started where I am people came and picked up the packages and I gave them instructions how to install. But they were inexperienced beekeepers and it mostly always went horribly wrong. So now, I only sell people packages for TBH's if I go and install them myself. In every case and without exception for the first season anyway it has been a resounding success. I tell them to treat the bees and how, and when. Those that do have had success ongoing. But I do get calls from people the following season saying the bees died. First question is "did you treat them for mites?" In every case thus far the answer has been no, despite what I told them they thought it would be better to let the bees deal with it, or whatever excuse.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

You put it so much better than I do Oldtimer.


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## QueenlessDrone (Nov 30, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> BeeGora, I tell them to treat the bees and how, and when.


I am going to be starting my 1st hive next year. Browsing the forum to gather all the info I can before I get started. My question is how and when do I treat my packaged bees? 

I am sure my 1st go around with bees is going to be a huge failure, but i'm still going to go for it LOL!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

QueenlessDrone said:


> I am sure my 1st go around with bees is going to be a huge failure!


Don't think that!

The primary reason people eventually lose their package bees is they are new beekeepers and fail to notice mite populations building up until it is too late, as there can be a huge population of mites in a hive and go unnoticed. Even now, there are several threads running with people saying something like my bees were fine 3 weeks ago now they are all dead. In fact 3 weeks ago they were not fine at all but the person could not see that.

If buying a package, realise that these bees have not been selected for mite resistance, they have been selected for productivity. So the beekeeper has to take care of the mites for them. That being done, they will probably be awesome bees and make you a good honey crop.

When to treat? Most commercial beekeepers treat their hives spring and fall. Since these guys actually live off their bees productivity, if you want high productivity from your package bees you should do the same.

Other than that, it's just a case of ensuring no screw ups are made during the package installation process, ie, not losing any bees and ensuring the queen is introduced safely. The package bees then need feeding until such time as they are able to collect their own stores from the surrounding flowers in the area.

Very occasionally a queen that has something wrong with it is sent with a package, so after a week or two check the queen is laying eggs normally, if not, ask here on Beesource what to do.

Do all this and expect success!


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## QueenlessDrone (Nov 30, 2015)

Thanks for the info Oldtimer that helps out alot. I do actually expect my 1st year with bees to not go so well. I am positive i'm going to make tons of mistakes but that is the learning process. Truthfully i'm feeling pretty confident about the whole thing and very excited. I love experiencing and doing new things. This is going to be a pretty fun and rewarding hobby I think.


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

QueenlessDrone said:


> I am going to be starting my 1st hive next year. Browsing the forum to gather all the info I can before I get started. My question is how and when do I treat my packaged bees?
> 
> I am sure my 1st go around with bees is going to be a huge failure, but i'm still going to go for it LOL!


Say what you want, want what you say, expect the best..You don't just try, put some ( umph ) to your work, YOU TRIUMPH


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## richr58 (Jul 23, 2014)

Bees of SC said:


> Say what you want, want what you say, expect the best..You don't just try, put some ( umph ) to your work, YOU TRIUMPH


I agree with Bees of SC, you will have what you plan for because that is the direction you will go. EXPECT success, expect to do great, study all you can this winter, read the forums, and do all you can with all you got, enjoy the trip, have fun, you may surprise yourself, and come out better on the end. Failure is not
the end result, nor is it a guarantee. I can't express too much, study, get ready now before they show up, plan ahead, find a mentor or club. 

GET Positive about your success,


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

YES!!


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## BeeGora (Oct 22, 2013)

So, say I buy a dog from a pet store and somewhere down the road it develops serious health issues and dies. If I find out it's because it had bad genetics, parasites, disease, etc. when it was sold to me, the pet store has no responsibility. Interesting.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Not sure how it works with dogs.

But with bees, if you buy bees that will die if not treated, and you don't want them to die, TREAT THEM.

Otherwise try to get some treatment free bees but there is a reason the world is not flooded with treatment free bees for sale. People who do actually sell large quantities of bees, and treat in order to make that possible, are only meeting the demand, filling the vacuum.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Isn't there a TF beek who is extremely successful in Mayberry, NC. 

Oh, that was in the 1960's...Nevermind.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

BeeGora said:


> So, say I buy a dog from a pet store and somewhere down the road it develops serious health issues and dies. If I find out it's because it had bad genetics, parasites, disease, etc. when it was sold to me, the pet store has no responsibility. Interesting.


So why did you buy a dog with bad genetics? The buyer always bears the ultimate responsibility.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Actually I don't think the dog analogy is a good one. Dogs have the problems they do because the breeders inbreed them in a quest to refine and meet "standards" set for the breed which are decided by show judges. They are about what the judges think that breed should look like and have nothing to do with reality. For example we have bulldogs with noses they can hardly breath through so they can conform to a "standard". How does that make any sense, in my view it is cruelty.

Bees, different story. The field is wide open to Treatment Free breeders to breed and sell bees. There is certainly a demand and Treatment Free purchasers are also prepared to pay a premium. But Treatment Free breeders just aren't successful at supplying.

Beekeepers who treat are able to supply but it is not an evil plot to target the Treatment Free community. If the Treatment Free community choose to sustain themselves by purchasing treated bees, end of day it's their choice and a consequence of their own actions. By purchasing treated bees these folks are supporting the treatment industry, I've never understood the rational of buying from and supporting the treatment industry, but then complaining about it like it's bad or something, when the treatment industry are the only folks propping these people up. If these folks committed to only buying Treatment Free bees, in time a bunch of them would not have any bees. So no point complaining in my opinion.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

At issue here is the standard failure of communication leading to dissatisfaction, probably for both seller and buyer. When the bees were purchased, what questions were asked? Did the buyer make assumptions on the bees they were purchasing? Did they ask the right questions. Did the seller think the buyer knew how to keep bees and treat, etc. If the transactions were carried out without the pertinent questions asked and answered, then the result could have been anticipated... disappointment. The only way to insure one receives what they desire, is to articulate that desire to the seller. The if the seller can fulfill your needs and is honest, then satisfaction is a lot higher probability. Dis-satisfaction in that case would be a result of misrepresentation on either the seller or buyer's part, or both.

When one assumes they are buying something but fail to ask and describe what it is they think they are paying for, often they end up with something entirely different. I imagine there is more to this story. For a seller to "shrug and say too bad" about a failed queen leads me to believe there are other forces in the seller buyer interaction at play here. The seller sounds just as discouraged as the buyer. It appears both are dis-satisfied with each other. Unreasonable expectations on either party's side, will lead to dis-satisfaction.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Exactly, it's communication.

Normally when package bees are sold they are just sold as bees no warranty is made about how they should be cared for including treatment if they need it. I do with bees I sell but that's because I am a small business and have personal contact with the purchasers. But large package sellers just have to assume the purchaser will research and take care.

The purchaser though, may be a newby with no experience other than a book they read telling them that treatment is bad and evil and they shouldn't do it. Combine that with the fact that not many bees for sale are treatment free and you have a recipe for what's happened on this thread.


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