# Making "Comb Honey" Good or Bad..



## ycitybz (Jan 2, 2012)

I am thinking of doing a box of comb honey next season. I was checking out the Rossman Apiaries catalog and the "Ross Rounds" 10 frame is $95.
My question is, is comb honey worth doing? What do they sell for at a farmers market? Also, is this a good or bad thing to be doing? Any advise from someone with experience making comb honey would be appreciated. Any advise on marketing it would also help..


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## G'ville beek (Jul 2, 2012)

Some bees take to it some have to be coaxed. Best advice would be to crowd the bees, place your ross super on and monitor, sometime you can add the ross super and your normal super you use above that.
When I say crowd the bees, I mean if you have double brood chambers, place your brood and honey and pollen into bottom box , so your bees are oozing out. Then they will draw the rounds and round round we go, wee hoo! where we stop no one knows.....


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Cheaper to buy it then produce it. I produced 111 supers this year and I would bet I lot that many supers by producing it.:scratch:


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Why make section comb honey, and have to deal with all the management involved with forcing the bees to work in the sections. Why not make cut comb. Not really much to it. If you can get an extracting super with wired foundation drawn and filled, you can do the same with comb honey foundation.

I put on 300 supers this year. We're still cutting it up, but looks like there's 6-8,000 cuts. At [email protected], is that not worth it?


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## sweetas (Apr 16, 2012)

to produce honey comb there is a cost in honey to produce that wax.

Based on info that it takes 30 grams of wax to hold 1 kg of honey I have done the following calculation.

Or 1kg of honey comb is the equivalent of 1.32 kg of honey. 

You need to decide on the labour cost of honey comb verses extracting honey

the set out of the table looks good at the moment but may not look too good when posted. 

I sell cut honey comb at my local market based on $38 per kg, that gives me a honey price of $29 kg.

I sell honey in 1 kg plastic tug (tub cost $0.85 plus label) for $10


HONEY COMB PRODUCTION 
ECONOMICS 


Assumptions 
Wax to store 1 kg honey 3%	46	gm	
Honey to produce 46 gm of wax 322	gm	

1 Kg honey comb equivalent to 1.322	kg honey	


Acceptable Minimum 
Honey price Honey comb 
Equivalent 

$5.... $6.61 
$6.... $7.93 
$7.... $9.25 
$8... $10.58 
$9...... $11.90 
$10.... $13.22 
$11 .... $14.54 
$12.... $15.86 
$13.... $17.19 
$14.... $18.51 
$15.... $19.83 
$16.... $21.15 
$17.... $22.47 
$18.... $23.80 
$19.... $25.12 
$20... $26.44


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Michael, how do you find a market for 6-8000 cuts @ $5? I hardly ever get people requesting cut comb honey, maybe its a local thing for you. John


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I pull out a frame early in the season (as soon as it is capped) cut it up on the cooling tray and make cut comb. It is like the first tomato of the year. We put it in the plastic containers at under $0.25 and freeze it. Put the frame back in and let them do it over. I am obviously not in the same class as the other posters but the sell at our farmers market for $9 each (4" sqauares)


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I sell by the super for $130 Avg. 33 lbs of honey. That works out to just under $4 a lb. For even super of comb honey, I could have produced 2 production supers. Wholesale honey price at $2.25 a lb X 66 lbs I'm at $148 and I still have the equipment. The only reason I sell the comb honey is to move the other 50-60 tons of honey, and it works.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Mr.Householder, What is it that you are selling? A super of basswood sections? Ross Rounds? Or Frames without wires?

Crazy Roland


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

10 frames shallows. We use the thin comb foundation, what a pain.


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## Nichols747 (May 21, 2010)

Minz, on a similar scale, I made five frames of cut comb this year - just bought the specialty thin foundation and slipped them in with five other production frames. I made 15 squares and sold out in a few minutes on Facebookat $10 per. Of the fifteen, two had tried It before, 13 wanted to try it - all asked for more!
For one ten-frame shallow that's $300 in sales. I used the fancy plactic boxes, but the clamshells are cheaper. I used a medium super, which had a ton of excess - should've used the shallows!

I can't sell hundreds of supers of it, but I know I can move a few supers-worth easily!


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## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

I had ross round given to me. The bees worked them nicely.
I also jarred chunk comb honey. I have been asked to produce it for years. I won't have any left in a week or so.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Michael Palmer said:


> you can do the same with comb honey foundation.
> 
> I put on 300 supers this year. We're still cutting it up, but looks like there's 6-8,000 cuts. At [email protected], is that not worth it?


Your using comb honey foundation? Are you not concerned about contaminates in the wax? If I was doing cut comb, I'd let the bees build natural comb.


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

I use comb honey foundation, i cut 2 in. wide strips and put them in med. frames, they will draw the foundation to the bottom of the frame with new wax. I can get eight 8oz slabs from one frame and sell it in a clear plastic sandwich box for $4.00, thats $32.00 a frame x 10.:thumbsup: Jack


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jmgi said:


> Michael, how do you find a market for 6-8000 cuts @ $5? I hardly ever get people requesting cut comb honey, maybe its a local thing for you. John



Took some time to develop the market, but most of the comb honey I sell goes to beekeepers who can't make enough honey to supply their customers. Same as my extracted honey. Almost all goes to beekeepers who can't make enough honey.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Barry said:


> Your using comb honey foundation? Are you not concerned about contaminates in the wax? If I was doing cut comb, I'd let the bees build natural comb.


Sorry, I don't buy into the contaminated foundation bit. And as far as foundationless goes...I'd like to see someone make as much comb as I do without using foundation. I like my comb honey without drone cocoons.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Whats the method to getting nicely drawn comb honey done quickly before the bees track it up? John


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> I like my comb honey without drone cocoons.


I take it you don't use excluders for comb honey? If not, can I ask how much space the queen has to keep her from laying in the comb honey?

On using foundation, I agree with your thoughts about contamination. On the other hand, being a small-timer, I use the natural comb sales pitch to sell comb at a good price. I see it as a nitch market for those of us with more time than hives.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

There is an art to making good comb honey - I don't know the secrets. Every time i try to crowd the bees and get them to do Ross Rounds the bees end up swarming. Suggest reading Richard Taylor's book and talking with people (like Mike P) who make excellent comb honey. (Hint, try the people who win the comb honey contests at places like EAS - think Karen Thurlow-Kimball, winner at EAS this year)


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Year ago we produced with just a starter strip, but costumer like nice straight comb honey and lots of it. 

One of the big secrets in comb honey is that you have the right hive to do the job. Not every hive can produce comb honey.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

I let the bees fill most of a super of extracted honey, then move it up above a comb honey super during a good flow.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

jmgi said:


> Whats the method to getting nicely drawn comb honey done quickly before the bees track it up? John


A good honey flow. Plus fine your best hive to do your finishing. We use the best hives to do 60% of the capping. When the supers are full we stack them all on top of our best hives and they cap them within the week and then pull them so they don't track them up.

Making comb honey is an art on a good year, and is almost impossible in the bad year.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

I reported an observation in another thread that is more relevant here.

Comb honey made with foundation has a thick center wall with thin sidewalls. "Natural Comb Honey" has all thin cell walls. The center wall is the same thickness as the sides. There is a difference when the two are compared one bite from each. The thin-walled comb has a more delicate taste, whereas the thick-walled is more chewy.

Whether this makes any difference in marketability is questionable though, since both look the same in a package, and consumers are not aware of the difference in taste. Might win a county fair prize though!


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

I don't produce near as much comb honey as Mike Palmer, and like Mike i sell comb honey to other beekeepers to meet their customer demaned, i also sell it at the farmers market.Like mike i don't go along with the contaminated foundation part,i use a thin strip of the thin foundation for a starter on my comb honey frames and the bees fill in the rest (pure comb?) Using the thin foundation for a starter, i've not seen or heard of it having a thick center. Jack


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Michael Palmer said:


> Sorry, I don't buy into the contaminated foundation bit.


You don't buy into it meaning you don't believe commercial wax has any chemical residue in it? What do you base this on? Studies have shown with out doubt that wax is a great compound for holding nasties. When it comes to people actually putting it in their mouth and either chewing it or eating it, it gives me pause for concern.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

What are the characteristics to look for in a hive to produce good comb honey? Is it the way they cap it or how fast they cap it, like to be crowded? I really don't buy into the contamination factor either, especially for thin foundation. The bulk of the comb will be what's drawn by the bees and your comb is only as clean as your bees are. If they're loaded up with pesticides, guess what, so is all that brand new wax they're laying out.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

brooksbeefarm said:


> i don't go along with the contaminated foundation part,


Perhaps you would like to do some reading about this issue? Here is one study:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0009754

Below is a snippet from the link above:




> Twenty-one wax samples from six different commercial and two private foundation sources were uniformly contaminated with up to 10.1 ppm fluvalinate (mean of 2±0.6 ppm) and up to 14.3 ppm coumaphos (mean of 3.3±1.0 ppm, *Table 5*), which is 27% and 100%, respectively, of mean detection levels found in comb wax overall (*Table 1*). One organic beekeeper source lacked coumaphos in its foundation, although 0.5 ppm of fluvalinate was still present. Much lower levels of 25 other pesticides and metabolites were found in 21 samples, at an average of 5.7 detections per sample, which is lower than the 8 detections per sample of comb wax overall. Systemics were found less often in foundation (5.8% of detections, *Table 5*) than in comb wax (*Table 1*). Other frequently detected contaminants include chlorpyrifos (81%), endosulfan (38%), chlorothalonil (29%) and other pyrethroids including cypermethrin, cyfluthrin and esfenvalerate (*Table 5*). Interestingly, three distinct old foundation samples from prior to miticide use lacked fluvalinate and coumaphos as expected, but contained more chlorpyrifos and significant levels of other pesticides no longer registered including bendiocarb, _p,p'_-DDE, and heptachlor (not shown).





>


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Where's all the Round-up that's killing bees... Thanks for the link Rader, interesting reading and I wanted to ask if there had been any studies done.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

JRG13 said:


> Where's all the Round-up that's killing bees ...


I'm no fan of Monsanto, but Roundup (glyphosate) and its generic offspring are _herbicides_, and generally not harmful to bees or other insects (unless they _drown _in a puddle of it). I use glyphosate in an appropriate manner, and find it a useful tool.

Here's my post from an earlier thread:

In the document linked below, published by North Carolina State University,http://ipm.ncsu.edu/agchem/5-toc.pdf

glyphosate (Roundup) is listed in group 3


GROUP 3 — RELATIVELY NON-TOXIC. These pesticides can be used around bees with a minimum risk of injury.
...
Glyphosate
...


The .PDF doesn't cut-n-paste well here, so use the link if you don't like my crude attempt.

The biggest problem with glysophate is that it generally has a surfactant as a small part of the mix. Surfactants are essentially detergents, and will kill bees if they get sprayed directly with enough of it.

The other problem with Roundup is "image". It was developed by Monsanto, so it is branded as part of the _Evil Empire_.  Howewer, Monsanto's patents have expired, so today many manufacturers make generic equivalents.


Here's a more comprehensive document on glysophate and and its effects:
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles..._prf_0285.html


IV. ENVIRONMENTAL CONSIDERATIONS
Toxicological investigations conducted with bobwhite quail, mallard ducks,* honey bees*, rainbow trout, bluegills, and other species of fish show that these species *have an extremely high tolerance to glyphosate*.

​
If you want to read the complete earlier thread on Roundup, its here:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?268687-The-Roundup-Thread


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Hi Rader,

I was just being funny. I know glyphosate is an herbicide and should not be toxic to bees. Yep, China makes the glyphosate for cheap these days. A lot of the surfactants are designed to appease the general public as well and can be fairly harsh. People want to see yellowing and burnt leaves shortly after they spray so the surfactants are designed to burn the plants to some extent so there's the perception of hey, it's really working quickly. Glyphosate is deactivated quickly by binding to any organic compounds so tolerance is high is most species, but it's also why you need good clean water when using it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

JRG13, sorry for misinterpreting your humor. The subject of Roundup touches a nerve in some people, and then sometimes all sorts of crazy things get said.  Using smilies  is sometimes helpful to indicate you are just having fun.

As far as seeing an impact (dead leaves) from glyphosate shortly after spraying, I understand completely. But perception is not always reality.

This paragraph is not directed to JRG13, but everyone who uses Roundup (glysophate). The best way to use glyphosate, is to kill the roots along with the tops of the plants. But it takes time for the active ingredient to travel down to the roots in order to kill them. That means that for people who use higher than the recommended dosages, the tops of the plants wither and brown quickly,  but the roots are not affected because the herbicide has not had time to get to the roots.  So the plant just resprouts, and people are unhappy. You really need to restrain yourself from applying overdoses, so that the top of the plant will live long enough to deliver a lethal dose to the roots. Otherwise you are just wasting your time and money.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Are there any published studies that compare honey yields in hives drawing new comb vs. hives supplied with drawn comb?

Since the comb builders tend to be a different age than the foragers, apart from a very brief delay while the very first comb is built, I wonder if drawing comb really does have any significant effect on honey yields.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jmgi said:


> Whats the method to getting nicely drawn comb honey done quickly before the bees track it up? John


good flow, good bees, strong colony. supers on early


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

DonShackelford said:


> I take it you don't use excluders for comb honey? If not, can I ask how much space the queen has to keep her from laying in the comb honey?


Broodnest is 2 deep and a medium. Two honey supers already being well filled...add cut comb super below those two...just like you would a new extracting super of foundation.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Andrew Dewey said:


> (Hint, try the people who win the comb honey contests at places like EAS - think Karen Thurlow-Kimball, winner at EAS this year)


Like me in the 1980s


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Barry said:


> You don't buy into it meaning you don't believe commercial wax has any chemical residue in it? What do you base this on? Studies have shown with out doubt that wax is a great compound for holding nasties. When it comes to people actually putting it in their mouth and either chewing it or eating it, it gives me pause for concern.


Meaning any contamination is so small as to be meaningless.


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## baldwinbees (Mar 2, 2010)

I've been letting the bees make it in jars.cut a piece of 1/2" plywood to fit a super,mount to bottom of old super,drill 9 holes 3 1/2",put 1/2 pint widemouth jars in holes&let the bees do the rest.sell as totally raw.$10 a jar.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Baldwin, I take it the jars hang upside down and open in the hive? Got a photo? Sounds brilliant...what excellent Christmas gifts for the older, ex beekeepers in my life!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

You may be interested in this thread (it has pictures):
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?266848-Made-plywood-part-for-jar-comb-honey


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

By putting a one or two in. starter strip of thin foundation on a comb honey frame and the bees draw the rest to fill the frame with new comb,would that not make 3/4 or 2/3 of none contaminated comb? Then again there are those who say that there are chemical residue in most everything the bees collect? Like DDT,for one, that i've read can stay in the ground for 50 yrs.? I'm not saying that commercial wax foundation does not have chemical residues in it, my thinking is, if a bee digusted it and brought it back to the hive to be processed by other bees and cured out without killing the bee, then it's probably not going to kill me. Not to be argumentative, but most everything we eat and drink these days have some type of chemical residue in it. Also if suppliers are selling foundation that can be harmful to man and getting away with it, someone isn't doing there job. IMHO. Jack


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Thanks Graham, that was awesome!! BTW you can make your own foundation from your own clean wax using a press/roller I think. Never checked it out but should!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

brooksbeefarm said:


> Not to be argumentative, but...


But the air you breath in Chicago, Barry, is worse for you than any minute amount of contamination in the comb honey you eat.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Maybe. I can't control the air I breath and I'm not selling it to someone else. The wax I put in my hive, however, I do have control over. I haven't used commercial wax for at least 10 years now. I can't control what the bees bring into the hive either. Perhaps there is no real significance here, but I would like to be more informed based on data. I'm going to contact Maryann Frazier and see if she has any input on this issue.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Barry said:


> Maybe...I would like to be more informed based on data. I'm going to contact Maryann Frazier and see if she has any input on this issue.


Please do. 

I like Mike Palmer's, "splash-of-icewater" countering of a lot of the popular philosophies, but the lack of universally conclusive evidence for either side make it all suspect. Maybe that's Mike's secret - don't believe what you can't see for yourself. 

Anyone's got to admit, he's awfully successful for doing so many things "wrong"...

I really value your participation here, Mike. There's always a potential for "groupthink", and we need the different perspectives - particularly the ones backed up be many years of hard-earned experience - to make the most useful collective in a forum like this.

Adam


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Barry said:


> Maybe. I can't control the air I breath and I'm not selling it to someone else. The wax I put in my hive, however, I do have control over. I haven't used commercial wax for at least 10 years now. I can't control what the bees bring into the hive either. Perhaps there is no real significance here, but I would like to be more informed based on data. I'm going to contact Maryann Frazier and see if she has any input on this issue.



Okay, fair enough. But, the honey you take out of your hive has pesticides and industrial chemicals and fallout from acid rain in it, and you're selling that to your customers.

So let's get real here...


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I agree, except you're also taking the wax out. Remember, it's the wax I'm concerned about, not so much the honey.


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

Should we be concerned about the chemicals it takes to make the plastic and glass containers(and lids) that we sell or give our honey away in ??? The bees can answer this for you,put 5 frames of wax coated plastic foundation and 5 frames of wax foundation in the same super and see which one gets drawn out first.Has anyone had their natural drawn comb analyzed and compared to comb drawn from foundation in the same hive? Jack


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

You can do studies but honestly, they would probably never correlate unless you did it in a controlled fashion which makes the study meaningless to me. So many different variables contribute to pesticide build up or lack of build up the only true value with any meaning would be doing analysis of the wax used to make foundation and printing the results out as it's packaged up. Personally I'm leaning towards having my bees draw out supers every year as people want wax as well and therefore I will have honey in new comb to extract except I will use whatever foundation I can buy so maybe it's meaningless anyways.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

I think we are all in that position where we can only do our best, but there is so much environmental degradation out there, our best is ALL we can do. I applaud Mike's drive for purity: the bees can use the beekeeper's help in returning to a more pure state. 

I am trying to find a clean local beeyard or two, ones where the hives will not be too subject to pesticide spraying, which is ubiquitous in the agricultural land all around us. It is a tough search. The blueberry growers need the bees, but how to protect the bees from the frequent spraying in the fields?


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

That's the point i'm trying to make, whith the world we live in today where most everything has a contaminant of some kind. This discussion on natural drawn comb Vs comb drawn from starter foundation is alot like,--- Which came first the chicken or the egg. Jack


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Part of the "problem" we face today is our ability to detect compounds has exceeded our ability to understand the impact of the results. Ideally, there would be no contaminants in anything we eat. That is not the world we live in.

Another part of the problem is our food safety and availability has improved dramatically over the past century. Where we use to worry about the food we eat killing us "quickly," we now need to worry about the long term effects of what we eat.

"We" need to do the best we can to provide the safest honey, food, we can. We each may make different decisions in how we choose to produce our products we market.

Tom


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Read the label on half of what we feed our kids for lunch (we did this when we found our grated cheese was cheese food pretty unusual names). Very little of that was meant for human consumption but like Twall said it kills slowly so it is ok. So if our diet includes chemicals that are intended to be in there they are not ‘contaminated’.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I emailed Maryann Frazier but she never replied.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Barry said:


> I emailed Maryann Frazier but she never replied.


Interesting, I had the same experience. I wanted to send her some honey samples for testing. No reply.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm getting 2 foundationless frames in each deep an each super - puts me at about 10 FL total for the year right now. I think cut comb honey might be doable next year. For this year, it would be cut comb sugar water - my bees came too late for the flow, unfortunately


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Barry said:


> I emailed Maryann Frazier but she never replied.


Jim Frazier is battling a cancer. I hear he's improving, but Maryann might just be a bit pre-occupied.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Barry said:


> I emailed Maryann Frazier but she never replied.


I called Dadant, where I buy my foundation. Their foundation is checked periodically, for contamination. This fellow wouldn't give me anything like the print-out I requested. Gabe Dadant might, and I'm trying. If I get it I'll post it here.

But, he did say contamination has to be below gov't guidelines or they can't sell it. Same with everything else you eat, organic or not.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> ... contamination has to be below gov't guidelines or they can't sell it. Same with everything else you eat, organic or not.


 Sure, the problem is that "guidelines" ether did not exist or so "liberal" (towards big companies) that does not make any sense. For instance, the nitrites, who cause brain damage in children are not regulated in US. It is heavily regulated in other places... I do not think that chemical contamination of the wax is regulated at all. So, Dadant is safe... as well as others who is selling reclaimed wax in honey comb for food. sergey


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So minimal use of foundation in the production of comb honey OR no starter strip at all will minimize exposure. It won't eliminate it, but itr will minimize it. The only real way to eliminate chemical residue consumption/exposure is to not produce comb honey at all. Produce only liquid honey.

But, what do you do w/ the customer who wants comb honey? How do you handle that? What do you suggest?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

If anyone out there has any other suggestions where beeswax could be tested for contaminants please post.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Since this thread has morphed from comb honey to contaminated foundation the issue of poor quality queens from packaged bees has been linked to contaminated comb in some studies. And no I won't list sources but you can check back issues of the 2 popular bee journals I think Randy Oliver has talked about this.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Thanks for the info on foundation getting tested. I assumed thin foundation for cut comb had some requirements but you never know I guess. It still boils down to how contaminated nectar etc.. is the bees are foraging on. You can start out with the cleanest comb possible and it doesn't amount to squat if your bees are foraging chemically laced sources.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

We had a huge discussion on reclaimed wax contamination in another thread a few month ago. To save time,everyone could search for that thread. It was huge! The bottom line is that beekeepers and their treatment practices are the major source of bee-wax contamination. Recycling wax, contamination is accumulated. Sergey


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> So minimal use of foundation in the production of comb honey OR no starter strip at all will minimize exposure.


 OR move bees in Switzerland in alpine meadows, where no pesticides etc.


sqkcrk said:


> It won't eliminate it, but itr will minimize it.


I think, it is good idea - to minimize the contamination.


sqkcrk said:


> The only real way to eliminate chemical residue consumption/exposure is to not produce comb honey at all. Produce only liquid honey.


 I do not think so because you still use treatments, etc. You could not claim that your product is contamination free.



> But, what do you do w/ the customer who wants comb honey? How do you handle that? What do you suggest?


 If demand is strong, it will force you guys to produce what people demanded. This is how market economy suppose to work. Meantime, supporting local small scale treatment-free beekeeping is very important to develop a new disease resistant honey-bees lines _and supply customers with local high-quality products they needed._ Sergey


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> OR move bees in Switzerland in alpine meadows, where no pesticides etc.



You forgot the winking smily face. There is nowhere where you can go and not find pesticides. Even on Mt. Everest.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Mr. Lyon, what chemicals are you looking yo test for? I have worked with a lab in Mass. that might be able to help.


Crazy Roland


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> You forgot the winking smily face. There is nowhere where you can go and not find pesticides. Even on Mt. Everest.


 Yes, I could not manage those smiling faces - for some reason, I could not insert them into the text - they jumped to the header... *-ooops, now it is inserted!* As for pesticides, who knows. I am optimistic. Europe is very careful regarding any pollution. You could not find in Europe something like our Central Valley where just smell chemicals... and nothing but ruined land... If you put Mt. Everest in the Central Valley - I am sure it would be impregnated with chemicals... China and India are horrible in regard to pollution. I saw "organic raw honey" in Trader Joe's another day -made in India! 

One more thought. Nature has amusing capacity to clean/restore itself. In Soviet Union, we had horrible pollution in the Oka-river. It used to be the river with cleanest water (before USSR). They catch here sturgeon for royal 's table in old days. In USSR - we did not need sturgeon for royal family, since royal family was killed... They build a gigantic factories on the banks of the river and used the river as sewage. During the "perestroika" time when all industry went down and factories were closed, Oka-river cleaned itself within 5 years and now we have sturgeon again! So, it is amusing how nature could heal itself if we do not interfere and do not add more. Thus, even small efforts could make a huge difference! Sergey


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I will wager that those sturgeon have trace elements of pesticides in them too.

"As for pesticides, who knows."? Mary anne Frazier and Pennstate knows. She spoke at a Pollinators and Pesticides Conference at alfred State University, Alfred, NY two years ago and told those there about establishing package bees in hives w/out foundation. Taking samples of comb, since that is where pesticide residue shows up the most, being oil based chemicals they bond w/ oils like beeswax, what was found was chemicals which came in from the environment from as far away as 5 miles away or more.

"Sounds like our environment is generally polluted.", I said. "Yes", she said." There is literally no where you can go and not find pesticides. Primarily from Agriculture and Lawn Maintainence sources. And what beekeepers put into their hives themselves."

Her study even found miticides such as fluvalinate (aka Apistan) which they had not used and isn't really used for much of anything other than Mite control. So where did that come from? May have come w/ the bees themselves.

We may already have them, but we need standards of acceptable levels of pesticide residues in honey and bees wax.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

That sturgeon, Mark, would have heavy metals contamination primarily, because pollution originally comes mostly from industry (electronic production). But, the trick was that sturgeon is a natural indicator for pollution - it did not live in even slightly contaminated waters. The appearance of sturgeon in the river is an indication that waters in fact are very clean. Sturgeon is more sensitive than all our mass-spectrometers together! Similarly - wild trout. It is living only in literally distilled water from puriest mountain glaciers. If you could find trout in the Mt. Everest high mountain creeks - than, you are not right and area is clean (water at least). I would imagine, there are other living indicators of contamination. Actually, bees were considered to be a living indicator. I afraid, not anymore - they were breed (unintentionally I guess) to sustain pollution (treatment, pesticides etc). Wild, native bees - perhaps, still indicators. Some plants - also indicators. I used to know quite well "russian" indicators. I am not familiar with Americans... I know that tiger lily in CA is very sensitive to pollution, thus - nearly disappeared from the nature... But again, the idea that everything is polluted (I basically agree with this) is counterproductive since open doors for hopeless approach:"everything polluted, why bother? Other pollute, I could pollute too!". I completely disagree with such approach. It is everyone's responsibility to minimize pollution in all ways and do not wait until somebody (magically) would clean up for you. The best approach - "do not pollute, than you don't need to clean up"... Sergey


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The first step to being able to address ones problems is to recognize the existence of the problem. 

Do you eat the sturgeon?


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> The first step to being able to address ones problems is to recognize the existence of the problem. Do you eat the sturgeon?


 Agree, but pollution problem do exists in US for at least 50 years. I feel, it was plenty of time to understand that pollution is bad. Pesticide problem become very pronounced with invention of DDT and "orange agent" (not exactly pesticide, but pollutant) and now we are still trying to "recognize" the problem... 

As for sturgeon - yes, but did not tell anybody since it is prohibited to catch it in Oka-river - it will take time to restore the population if new Russian capitalistic approach do not destroy slowly recovered eco-system AGAIN.
Sergey


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

It takes a stronge colony to produce comb honey(enough to sell commercially) say one or two supers of beautiful snow white capped comb honey. Maybe i'm wrong, but with all the steps the bees go through to make the comb and honey (processing it through there bodies) and make enough stored honey and new brood to get them through winter. I feel alot safer eating their product, than the produce i buy from the super market.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

brooksbeefarm said:


> It takes a stronge colony to produce comb honey(enough to sell commercially) say one or two supers of beautiful snow white capped comb honey. Maybe i'm wrong, but with all the steps the bees go through to make the comb and honey (processing it through there bodies) and make enough stored honey and new brood to get them through winter. I feel alot safer eating their product, than the produce i buy from the super market.


My instincts say you are correct. While we should always strive for purity in our food supply we would starve to death if we absolutely required it. Today's ultra-sensitive testing is useful only in showing us what is in our foods and not necessarily what might affect our health.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> As for sturgeon - yes, but did not tell anybody since it is prohibited to catch it in Oka-river - it will take time to restore the population if new Russian capitalistic approach do not destroy slowly recovered eco-system AGAIN.
> Sergey


So, even for you, there is an acceptable level of contamination which you are willing to consume. So what's ther problem w/ beeswax foundation?


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

In defense of pesticides (if used correctly,read the lable) they have probably saved more lives than they have taken. I say this because by using them we can produce more food for the world, and the resent outbreak of malaria in Africa, where they used DDT to kill the mosquito population causing the problem that was killing hundreds of people.Like it or not, pesticides are here to stay, were just going to have to learn more about them and how to use them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That's right brooks.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> So, even for you, there is an acceptable level of contamination which you are willing to consume. So what's ther problem w/ beeswax foundation?


Mark
You need to be more respectful to my writing! I spend literally an hour to carefully master the respond on your post regarding eating the sturgeon. Your respond (above) was expected. In my previous post I stated that sturgeon is a live indicator of cleanness of environment - if I eat this, it means it was really clean. Nobody could force me to eat something suspicious! Read corresponded post(s) before replying! Sergey


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh, sorry, I see. You said the return indicated the cleanliness of the waters which it is found in. Okay.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

brooksbeefarm said:


> using them we can produce more food for the world Like it or not, pesticides are here to stay, were just going to have to learn more about them and how to use them.


All the money spent on pesticide, herbicide, insecticide, fungicide, miteicide research would be better spent on research on organics. We already know what the effects are from these chemicals. The world can be fed by using organic farming. Rodale has been researching organics since 1947. World starvation is not because of lack of food it’s distribution and over population problem.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

topic has gone from comb honey to pesticides. tail gator any one???


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

My foundationless comb: 

Well the pic won't upload, and it is not important enough to find my password to the photo website, so never mind. 

Tata...


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

Mac, the moderator was concerned about contamination in the commercial foundation Vs natural drawn comb for comb honey. Myself i don't think there would be much difference, there are contaminates in the nector the bees bring in to make comb out of. If not we wouldn't be talking about contaminated comb in our comb honey.The thin foundation i buy for comb honey, i only use 1 in. or 2 in. strips for a starter and it has to be heated to a melting temp. to produce it which would kill some of the contaminates.(but probly not all) As for organic produce, it's not all contaminte free either.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

brooksbeefarm said:


> Myself i don't think there would be much difference, there are contaminates in the nector the bees bring in to make comb out of. If not we wouldn't be talking about contaminated comb in our comb honey.


Wait a minute. My concern isn't with what the bees bring into a hive. That has to be very small compared to the chemicals beekeepers put into the hive that gets into the wax. I could be proven wrong, but I'd venture to say the measurable contaminates in wax foundation come from the beekeeper, not the nectar brought in by bees.


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

My mistake Barry, i wasn't thinking along the line of what other beekeepers put in there hives and sell the wax. Myself the only mite control i use is Tymol oil (an essential oil) and have used Fumagilin B when i detect a case of Nosema, i don't feed it yearly for preventive use.Other than that it's the Live or let die method.With the small starter strip i use for comb honey and the rest of the comb the bees draw out to make a frame of comb honey. i would be surprised if there was a measurable amount of contamination compared to a frame of comb honey drawn without foundation.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Er,ATTENTION BEEKEEPERS!! Do Not Use Miticides While Colonies Are Producing Honey.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I think we need to clear something up. Does anyone know if makers of wax foundation guarantee that wax used in comb honey foundation comes only from cappings of untreated honey comb?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No they do not, afaik.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

So the brood comb that gets treated with chemicals is the same wax being used for honey comb foundation.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Beeswax foundation primarily comes from cappings wax.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> primarily


Ah, this is too vague. I'm interested in real numbers, remember?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

For that, perhaps, you would like to speak to someone who produces comb honey foundation. Such as Dadant or Kelley Companys.


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## greengecko (Dec 16, 2008)




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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

here is a french study but only looking for beeks chemicals in wax

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...1=BEE-L&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

marryanne frazer's study on wax contamination

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...1=BEE-L&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4

please note I don't have the time today to read them, just the summaries.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

a post by loyd speer about the french testing and testing he did on wax and his contacts with the manufacurer's

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...E-L&9=A&J=on&K=2&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4


hopefully enough information to make an informed judgement.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Thanks Mike.

*******
Honey Bees Suffer From Pesticide Buildup

The researchers presented their analysis of pollen, brood, adult bees and wax samples today (Aug. 18) at the 236th national American Chemical Society meeting in Philadelphia. Those results show unprecedented levels of fluvalinate and coumaphos -- pesticides used in the hives to combat varroa mites -- in all comb and foundation wax samples. They also found lower levels of 70 other pesticides and metabolites of those pesticides in pollen and bees.

"Everyone figured that the acaricides (anti-varroa mite chemicals) would be present in the wax because the wax is reprocessed to form the structure of the hives," says Maryann Frazier, senior extension associate. "It was a bit of a shock to see the levels and the widespread presence of these pesticides."

************
"That said, a couple of years ago I had occassion to have some wax tested for contamination and the readings were far, far higher than those that have been reported here (in the past couple of days). This wax was being sold as capping wax, but had been sold to a rendering house by a well-known commercial beekeeper." 

"Something (unknown) in the manufacturing process is removing the coumaphous and fluvalinate."

- Lloyd Spear


Still leaves the subject matter quite muddy. Looks like we know for sure that cappings wax is contaminated and foundation is still testing positive for chemicals. Manufacturers are reducing the levels through their process, but it appears it is a hit or miss sort of thing across the industry.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So whatcha gonna do Barry?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Personally, if I do comb honey again, I'd do it foundationless.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And on untreated hives?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Nice links though they are a few years old some good info nevertheless. Too bad this testing stuff has to be so murky and secretive. Now that McDonald's posts nutrition information on their menu perhaps its time for some light of day on beeswax testing. Those who have avoided the use of Coumaphous and Fluvalinate should be justly rewarded.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

that's what I do. Foundationless on untreated hives.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Yes, you know me Mark.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

brooksbeefarm said:


> ... Also if suppliers are selling foundation that can be harmful to man and getting away with it, someone isn't doing there job. IMHO. Jack


 FDA is not doing good job protecting citizens - the standards on many pesticides at least 5x lower (more chemical permitted) than in EU. For instance, ANY traces of antibiotics is prohibited in the honey in EU. DDT do exists. I do not think that current DDT could easily get into the hive NOW. But, if somehow DDT got into the wax - it will stay forever, it is literally un-destructible. Modern pesticides are more "destructible" by the elements and UV from the sun. The problem is that beehive provides perfect protection for those new pesticides... 

Since I am novice in all these bee-business, I could not understand, why such a problem with commercial foundation? Just collect wax from cupping and made your own chemical-free (as much as possible) foundation! What is the problem? Home-made foundation and treatment-free are good selling points, I think. Sergey
Sergey


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

brooksbeefarm said:


> Mac, the moderator was concerned about contamination in the commercial foundation Vs natural drawn comb for comb honey.


 I got that but thanks for the clarification. The original posting was about how to produce it and market it then it morphed into pesticides and foundation.


brooksbeefarm said:


> The thin foundation I buy for comb honey, I only use 1 in. or 2 in. strips for a starter and it has to be heated to a melting temp. to produce it which would kill some of the contaminates.(but probly not all) As for organic produce, it's not all contaminates free either.


Exactly that was my point about research. Heating your wax doesn’t destroy or eliminate pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, and insecticides, from that wax. There has been no research that I am aware of that has tested toxicities of all these chemicals mixed together which is why I referenced the point about doing more research on organics and not on new chemicals. And I agree that comb honey is probably no worse than anything else we choose to eat.


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

When growing up,40's and 50's) we had a grade C milk barn. One of my jobs was to spray the backs of the cows with a hand pump fly sprayer that always leaked and the DDT or Chlorodane (sp?) would run down your arm and drip off your elbow.(some of you oldtimers know what i"m talking about.) We didn't know the dangers of it then? but i'm 74 yrs. old and in good health, (maybe i'm just lucky) I told the owner of a chemical store about this,(i was worried about an early death) he just chuckeld and said, having skin contact with DDT and Chlorodane(it had been taken off the market for years) wasn't a good thing,but that we have insecticides available to the public now that's more harmful than DDT or Chlorodane ever was?My point is, we live in a chemical driven world,some good some bad and we are (sadly) going to have to live with it.
PS. If i remember right, DDT was taken off the market because it was killing Eagles?


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

brooksbeefarm said:


> (sadly) going to have to live with it.


 Not if we put money into research for organics


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

brooksbeefarm said:


> ... the DDT or Chlorodane (sp?) would run down your arm and drip off your elbow... We didn't know the dangers of it then? but i'm 74 yrs. old and in good health...


 I do not know if any statistics on effect of DDT on people, but what I know is that practically all native fauna and flora in great Los Angeles area and Orange county was destroyed during that period of time by unwise overuse of pesticides and other chemicals, but we are alive! Apparently, humans are hardier than native species... Bad stuff have a tendency to accumulate in the body and affect the body in many small ways - increase risk of cancer, unexpected allergy, some chronic condition. Mutations, low sperm counts do not affect directly you but next generation...So, people claim that they are healthy not thinking about further effects. For instance, the massive spread of allergies, asthma etc. in our time (my time) is mostly attributed to polluted environment - which WAS polluted in 50es and 60es! I very hope that your kids are as healthy as you are and even better! From another hand, the use by Americans of "orange agent" and its devastating effect on millions of people is well documented! I agree with previous poster that honey, probably, is not most dangerous food on the earth! I wish produce manufacturers would do care about their produce as beekeepers do care about quality of the honey! I am sure that milk we are drinking is much less milk than honey is honey and I even do not want to think what is in chickens, farmed salmon, you name it ... As Russians always stated - life is dangerous because causes the death... Sergey


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

mac said:


> Not if we put money into research for organics


Sorry, but with 7 billion and growing, and our dependency on producing everything as cheaply as possible, ogranics are a pipedream. Studies have shown it's not even healthier anyway. Organic farmers are still allowed to use certain pesticides as well. If you're talking researching more organic pesticides/herbicides there is some potential, but still, costs are higher to produce them on large scales because of the biomass you have to process to reach your end product.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> Beeswax foundation primarily comes from cappings wax.


Mark I have seen wax traded in on foundation @ 2 different dealers and I was ashamed to put the wax we traded in the same box, it looked NASTY in the box


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

cerezha,i have a 46 yr. old daughter(a teacher) and a 41 yr. old son,(a Anesthesiologist) both in good health.My son has been in 4 Ironman contest in 4 different states, and places in the 50's, not bad out of two or three thousand entries.:thumbsup: My daughter takes after me, fishing and a gardener, and running after her third child, a 5yr. old.

Mac, i'll have to go along with JRG13 on this one, too many mouths to feed in this old world and chemicals (sad to say) is the fast's way to mass produce crops. I truck farm 5 acres of my land and sell produce and honey at the local Farmers Market, i have to use some fungicide on some plants and insecticides as a last resort. Plants have new enemies (Japanese beetles for one) just like our bees and we have to learn to deal with them.People know me and trust me, if they ask i tell them if it was sprayed or not, and they know i don't use any chemicals (other than Fumagilin B, only when needed, and it's rare) in my hives (74 of them) They produced between 2500 to 3000 lbs. of honey and 6 med. supers of comb honey this year, even with the drought we had. This weekend is our towns Festival,(population of 1400) and it draws between 40 to 50 thousand people, Honey is all i'll have for sell and i usually sell out.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

don't get me wrong, I'm not against organic, but the reality is at our current rate of growth, it's not feeding the world.


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## BayHighlandBees (Feb 13, 2012)

mac,
neonic pesticides actually photodegrade so wax melting does purify some pesticide contamination.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

*brooksbeefarm* - good for you and your family. I really jealous - I wish to have such life and piece of land for all my bee/gardening/grapes projects! I think your efforts to be more natural are bringing great fruits. It is really, really great! Sergey


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

BayHighlandBees said:


> mac,
> neonic pesticides actually photodegrade so wax melting does purify some pesticide contamination.


 If one melts it in the solar melter with plastic "glass" - UV light is needed to decompose chemicals. Unfortunately, wax itself adsorbs UV and thus slow down the process of decomposition. But, in general, yes, UV and heat should reduce amount of pesticide in the wax at least by 10%. Sergey


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

JRG13 said:


> ... Studies have shown it's not even healthier anyway. ...


 Not exactly true. Study shows that "nutrition value" is the same, which is absolutely true because carrot with or without pesticides has exactly the same amount of carbohydrates, proteins (if any), carotene etc. The difference is that "treated" carrot has extra stuff in it (chemicals), which authors of mentioned above "study" sadly "forget" to measure and count... Very bad science... Sergey


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

With the minimal amount of thin foundation (a starter strip) i use, i'm not concerned to much about eating my comb honey. The bees make 90% of new wax to draw the rest of it out, the old days when you set a hive out and the only worry was if it got weak the wax moths would take over, are gone. I remember the organic days when we would pick potatoe bugs off and tomato worms by hand,and we would get half the peach or apple and the worm got the other half, same with the ear worm on sweet corn. With chemicals we now get all of the above and the worm dies or goes somewhere else:thumbsup:Myself and i'm sure everyone else would love to live in the garden of Eden (i'm thinking it was organic) but man just keeps making things worse by greed and over population. Anyone have an answer.:scratch:


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## BayHighlandBees (Feb 13, 2012)

as Sergey mentioned the wax gets photodegraded by UV light. The unmelted wax in the melter won't get cleansed much, due to its opacity to light, but the melting wax will get the full treatment. Neonic pesticides has a photodegration half life of between 4 hours -15 days depending on conditions so there I'd think with the right setup there would be significant upside beyond Sergey's quoted 10%.

Of course the above only pertains to neonicotinoids, other pesticides would react differently to solar wax melting (or possibly not at all)


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

BayHighlandBees said:


> ...would be significant upside beyond Sergey's quoted 10%...


 Since wax itself adsorbs UV, photodegradation reaction will happens only on the surface, which will dramatically reduce the overall efficiency of the process. To be efficient, I would imagine, wax needs to be constantly mixed to expose more chemical on the surface. Chocolate fountain comes in mind - put wax fountain outside in direct sunlight for 15 days and efficiency would be 50% (rough estimate)... but, yes, I agree, that it may be done. Prolonged heating would also degrade some chemicals. The bottom line is that beehive itself is a perfect place to store and accumulate nasty chemicals... Sergey


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

brooksbeefarm said:


> .... but man just keeps making things worse by greed and over population...


 I do not see how over population directly involved in creating more pollution? Most overpopulated countries are poor and just have no resources to produce nasty chemicals. Until recently, it was very true. Now, with emergency of China and India, my statement has less foundation. But I still do not think that overpopulation directly caused pollution. In case of China and India - pollution directly linked (in my opinion) to industrialization: 1000 years ago the bowl of rice was food for the whole day in China, 20 years ago in China, most rural areas feed on the bowl of rice a day... I have no idea what is going on in China today, but it seems to me, the tendency is that population growth is slowing down and pollution is growing. In my opinion, access to the modern western technology (synthesis of the complex chemicals etc) makes it very appealing to use chemicals to produce *the same *amount of food but cheaper. Sell it at the market price and get bigger profit. It is called "market economy". Unfortunately, in such simple equation, the damaging long-term effect on environment is not counted. Sergey


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

JRG13 said:


> Sorry, but with 7 billion and growing, and our dependency on producing everything as cheaply as possible, ogranics are a pipedream. Studies have shown it's not even healthier anyway. Organic farmers are still allowed to use certain pesticides as well. If you're talking researching more organic pesticides/herbicides there is some potential, but still, costs are higher to produce them on large scales because of the biomass you have to process to reach your end product.


I beg to differ http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/fst30years/yields


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

BayHighlandBees said:


> mac,
> neonic pesticides actually photodegrade so wax melting does purify some pesticide contamination.


 that may be true but not all the chemicals are neonic pesticides. you also have fungacides herbacides and traditional insecticides. I lost a bunch of bees this year to arial spraying of cotton and I know some of it got in the hives cause the convulsing bees were being dragged out of the hive.When ya mix all of them together do they still photodegrade ????


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

JRG13 said:


> don't get me wrong, I'm not against organic, but the reality is at our current rate of growth, it's not feeding the world.


 education is a great thing http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/fst30years/yields


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

brooksbeefarm said:


> Mac, i'll have to go along with JRG13 on this one, too many mouths to feed in this old world and chemicals (sad to say) is the fast's way to mass produce crops.


 Before wwII farming was done organicaly and it took a bunch of years for farmers to switch to chemical farming. And now it"s going to take the world farmers a bunch of years to switch back. Europe is a head of us on this.http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/fst30years/yields


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

brooksbeefarm said:


> Myself and i'm sure everyone else would love to live in the garden of Eden (i'm thinking it was organic) but man just keeps making things worse by greed and over population. Anyone have an answer.:scratch:


http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/fst30years/yields


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

cerezha said:


> I do not see how over population directly involved in creating more pollution?


 Well if ya grow an acre of rice for one person ya have an acres worth of rice growing pollution. If ya do it for 2 people you double the pollution.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

jmgi said:


> Michael, how do you find a market for 6-8000 cuts @ $5? I hardly ever get people requesting cut comb honey, maybe its a local thing for you. John


It's a cultural thing. In Va you couldn't produce enough comb honey but here in Indiana I have to explain to people what it is, what you do with, how to eat it....you mean you really put wax in your mouth!


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

mac said:


> I beg to differ http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/fst30years/yields


 I did not know that * "Organic corn yields were 31% higher than conventional in years of drought. "* Very educational, highly recommended for those, who is interested to learn... Thank you for the link! Sergey


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

mac said:


> Well if ya grow an acre of rice for one person ya have an acres worth of rice growing pollution. If ya do it for 2 people you double the pollution.


 But this is a problem - it seems to me that they just feed TWO people on the same acre of rice! It was my point. May be I am wrong, but I do not think that there is a linear dependency between number of people growing and amount of food produced... we have obesity problem in US and kids in Africa are starving... I do not think that African countries added "additional" acre of crop to each newborn baby... Just my thoughts. Sergey


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jmgi said:


> Michael, how do you find a market for 6-8000 cuts @ $5? I hardly ever get people requesting cut comb honey, maybe its a local thing for you. John


Other than a few local Vermont products stores that want to carry my comb honey, nearly all goes to beekeepers to supply their customers. Most winds up in the Boston and New York City markets.


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