# foundationless questions



## Bean (Jun 13, 2004)

I've been reading posts all over the web. So if someone could let me know where I've got it wrong, that would be great.

1) the bees need a starter strip at the top. Anything that hangs down 1/4 -1/2 inch the length of the top of the frame will do: a row of popsicle sticks in a grooved. No comb pattern needed.

2) Even better if you cut the top bar at two 45-degree angles all along their length and add the solid starter strip.

3) if you're in westerns you don't need wire, even to extract. I extract using a maxant chain decapper and a dedant 60 frame extractor (not rich, it's a work-for-extraction exchange). Really, they won't break apart - if the was is attached on 3 sides of the frame?

4) Should they be attached on 4 sides?

5) To extract, the wax should have been attached on 4 sides for at least a month.

6) The hives need to be truly level - like with a ball level.

7) Here's where I'm really confused (I know, that's not news): you need to put the foundationless between 2 pieces of drawn comb? Could you alternate combs in a hive: drawn, foundationless, drawn, foundationless....?

7a) But then won't they just draw out the same comb size as the comb you used, rather than what they would build for themselves? 

8) You can put a split into a completely foundationless hive and they will draw out stright comb of the size they prefer (thus the confusion with the above).

8a) if you do this will the bees will build slightly smaller comb. Do it again and you get small cell.

9) Do you have to keep all the foundationless together after that, or can they be intermixed with foundation comb?

Thanks for any and all help in sorting this out.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

You do not need to alternate frames. Just add the box of starter strip frames and they'll draw it out. Check it once every week or two, to make sure they doing it straight like you like. Occasionally they'll draw it funny and if they do, just scrape off the parts that aren't how we like it and put back in. They eventually do draw it out very fine indeed


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Bean said:


> I've been reading posts all over the web. So if someone could let me know where I've got it wrong, that would be great.


1) the bees need a starter strip at the top. Anything that hangs down 1/4 -1/2 inch the length of the top of the frame will do: a row of popsicle sticks in a grooved. No comb pattern needed.

*True*

2) Even better if you cut the top bar at two 45-degree angles all along their length and add the solid starter strip.

*False, no starter strip needed with a beveled top bar. I just bevel one side and break out the wedge.*

3) if you're in westerns you don't need wire, even to extract. I extract using a maxant chain decapper and a dedant 60 frame extractor (not rich, it's a work-for-extraction exchange). Really, they won't break apart - if the was is attached on 3 sides of the frame?

*true, if it has had a month or so to harden up after being drawn, and it's attached 3 sides*

4) Should they be attached on 4 sides?

*its better, but not required*

5) To extract, the wax should have been attached on 4 sides for at least a month.

*false, 3 sides is enough*

6) The hives need to be truly level - like with a ball level.

*helps, but I just eyeball it*

7) Here's where I'm really confused (I know, that's not news): you need to put the foundationless between 2 pieces of drawn comb? Could you alternate combs in a hive: drawn, foundationless, drawn, foundationless....?

*False, in fact its not a good idea in a honey super. They will draw the already drawn comb fatter instead of drawing the empty. One drawn in the middle is a good ladder and guide.*

7a) But then won't they just draw out the same comb size as the comb you used, rather than what they would build for themselves?

*They draw what they think they need, not necessarily what you want. Its generally smaller than regular foundation unless its drone* 

8) You can put a split into a completely foundationless hive and they will draw out stright comb of the size they prefer (thus the confusion with the above).

*True*

8a) if you do this will the bees will build slightly smaller comb. Do it again and you get small cell.

*true*


9) Do you have to keep all the foundationless together after that, or can they be intermixed with foundation comb?

*once drawn, use anywhere*

Thanks for any and all help in sorting this out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Looks like it's been pretty well covered, but here's my 2 cents.

>1) the bees need a starter strip at the top. Anything that hangs down 1/4 -1/2 inch the length of the top of the frame will do: a row of popsicle sticks in a grooved. No comb pattern needed.

Yes. Something for a guide.

>2) Even better if you cut the top bar at two 45-degree angles all along their length and add the solid starter strip.

No need for the starter strip if you cut the bevel. No need for the bevel if you break out the wedge, turn it 90 degrees and nail it back in so it makes an edge sticking down.

>3) if you're in westerns you don't need wire, even to extract. I extract using a maxant chain decapper and a dedant 60 frame extractor (not rich, it's a work-for-extraction exchange). Really, they won't break apart - if the was is attached on 3 sides of the frame?

You always have to be gentle with wax even if it's wired wax foundation, starting off with new soft wax. You CAN blow out wired wax and of course foundationless. You can also extract it if you start gentle and work your way up. Once the comb is aged more than a few weeks it is much stronger. I know of people who do this with deeps and no wire. Charles Martin Simon was a big proponent of foundationless deeps and he extracted them all the time. Wire was invented to keep the wax from sagging. It was not invented to keep comb from blowing out, and I don't think it's very effective at keeping comb from blowing out either.

>4) Should they be attached on 4 sides?

I like a LITTLE BIT on all four sides. But well attached on three would do.

>5) To extract, the wax should have been attached on 4 sides for at least a month.

A couple of weeks will probably do. But if it's nice soft pretty comb, I just cut it for cut comb honey.

>6) The hives need to be truly level - like with a ball level.

Always a good idea even with foundation. Side to side is the only issue. Front to back doesn't matter much.

>7) Here's where I'm really confused (I know, that's not news): you need to put the foundationless between 2 pieces of drawn comb?

No. You can put EMPTY FRAMES between two drawn brood combs with NO comb guide. But if you have a comb guide it's not necessary.

> Could you alternate combs in a hive: drawn, foundationless, drawn, foundationless....?

Not a good idea in the supers. They make the drawn ones fatter and ignore the foundationless.

>7a) But then won't they just draw out the same comb size as the comb you used, rather than what they would build for themselves?

I don't follow the question exactly. They build the size they want regardless of what drawn comb you put in.

>8) You can put a split into a completely foundationless hive and they will draw out stright comb of the size they prefer (thus the confusion with the above).

Yes. They generally do.

>8a) if you do this will the bees will build slightly smaller comb. Do it again and you get small cell.

Probably two turnovers of comb will do. Sometimes the do it on the first try and sometimes they take three. Lately my packages seem to be drawing 4.7mm at the core of the brood nest on the first try. I'm guessing the Mann Lake PF100 series are getting popular (4.95mm) and the Pierco (5.25mm) have been popular for a while.

>9) Do you have to keep all the foundationless together after that, or can they be intermixed with foundation comb?

Once they are drawn you can do whatever you like. While being drawn, I prefer to keep the foundationless together and the drawn together to avoid extra fat combs.


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## Bean (Jun 13, 2004)

Thank you all so much. That's great. I get it! I'll give it a try this year.


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## beeslinger (Jan 17, 2009)

I have a top bar hive and I use foundationless frames in the brood boxes in some of my Lang hives. This link has some pics that may be of interest:
http://s476.photobucket.com/albums/rr124/beeslinger/. 
I put a top bar with a popsicle stick for a starter strip in my observation hive and they pulled nice comb with just that. Whatever you use make sure it has some wax rubbed on it.....


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