# Tell me why TBHs are 'good' for northern climates?



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What are the pros and cons of having a TBHs in northern climates? To me it would seem that a smaller/vertical hive would be better for norhtern climates..right/wrong?

I don't think it's any better or worse.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm#faqs


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

MrGT,
I think on the surface, and from a pure practical point, your comments have merit and are based on being right.

I see advantages to vertical movement of bees throughout winter. They certainly don't store honey from left to right, or east to west. They store honey above themselves all summer long, and traditionally move upward throughout winter. And in smaller feral cavities, this most times means they end up toward the upper part of the cavity where I feel trapped heat allows for faster spring buildup with brood.

But I think with all beekeeping, its a matter of adjusting, and paying attention to details. Certainly in some cavities and where space dictates otherwise, bees do in fact survive in less than ideal situations. You can have bees survive in all kinds of hives if you know what your doing. 

I personally keep TBH's the traditional way, that being in my opinion, the Kenyon type style TBH with sloping sides and no modified supers and other boxes on top. I do it for the uniqueness, among other things. I think the TBH has now just phased back to almost traditional type boxes with supering, standard box setup, and other features of a normal hive. And I suppose some of this is due to the bees natural inclination for vertical vs horizontal. I started my TBH to have a completely free hanging comb system with benefits of such. And it seems with much of the so-called TBH's of today, I question why they even bother with a TBH at all, and not just go with a "no-foundation" frames and just leave it at that.

TBH's when it comes down to it, are probably not the best way to keep bees, unless your mentioning the pureness of the natural comb, or to study comb building. People build TBH's then worry about honey production and supering, etc. And perhaps there are other ways more suited for that.

In going with my traditional TBH, I realize that having multiple chambers is lost as having multiple stacked chamber with free hanging comb is not possible. But I'll take the good with the bad, and allow the enjoyment, and benefits to outweigh the negatives. Certainly there are differences with TBH's and traditional hives. I'll enjoy both for what they have to offer.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

BjornBee said:


> I realize that having multiple chambers is lost as having multiple stacked chamber with free hanging comb is not possible.


I understand this part of your comments to say having multiple stacked chamber with free hanging comb is not possible, I thought that is what a Warre is. Am I taking something out of context or could you clarify.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

MrGreenThumb said:


> What are the pros and cons of having a TBHs in northern climates? To me it would seem that a smaller/vertical hive would be better for norhtern climates..right/wrong?
> thx


I guess it depends on how far north you are. At my latitude (SW England) our winters are pretty mild compared to, say, NY state and my 5 horizontal hives + 1 skep have come through this last one comfortably. 

The issue I presume you have in mind is keeping them warm in winter - perhaps better expressed as 'providing the conditions for them to best keep themselves with the right balance of heat and humidity' - as there is more to it than just keeping heat in the hive (I should imagine that just heating hives with a low-wattage light bulb, for example, could result in very low levels of humidity, especially if top ventilation was included).

In that respect, something like a Warré vertical TBH ( see http://warre.biobees.com) could be ideal, given better-than-average insulation, vertical aspect and controlled absorption of excess moisture, but I see no reason why a well-designed horizontal TBH, with sufficient insulation over the bars, should not work as well. 

I take BjornBee's point about bees storing honey above brood - indeed they do - and on the face of it, that would seem to be a valid objection to the hTBH compared with the vTBH. But they do seem to adapt their storage pattern to allow for horizontal movement of the winter cluster, so as long as there is sufficient insulation for them to not have to work too hard to keep warm and humid. 

More work need to be done to establish 'rules of thumb' on such matters.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

MIKI said:


> I understand this part of your comments to say having multiple stacked chamber with free hanging comb is not possible, I thought that is what a Warre is. Am I taking something out of context or could you clarify.


Hmmmm....Warre hive....a hive designed and promoted on your very website as being designed to be opened once a year.....a hive that has certain limitation due to comb being joined between boxes....is this what you are referencing? I don't see the hype and fascination in this type beekeeping. But I'm sure some do. Hardly a design that actually facilitates weekly enjoyment of one's bees in my opinion.

I am quite certain that MrGT had a standard TBH in mind when he asked a direct and pointed question concerning the vertical or horizontal differences of a TBH (And lets be clear....he stated a "tbh" NOT a "warre hive"). I spoke of the differences and limitation of the two standard arrangements that he was referencing. Not nitpicking my answer to every conceivable way to keep bees.

My own opinion is the warre hive is nothing more than a langstroth hive with hanging comb with associated problems. If you want to promote it, fine. Go for it.


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## Shapleigh's Bees (Mar 8, 2008)

MIKI said:


> I understand this part of your comments to say having multiple stacked chamber with free hanging comb is not possible, I thought that is what a Warre is. Am I taking something out of context or could you clarify.


I think the original intent was to compare long hives vs. stacked hives. I mean you could easily build vertical top bar hives and just as easily build a hive that took the most modern plastic Lang frames laid out as long as the lumber would allow. (16 feet without special order here) In many regards, foundationless frames and top bars are really similar.

The most efficient space in terms of volume to surface area is a sphere. If you want a rectangular shape, a cube is most efficient. The longer the rectangular shape is, the less efficient in terms of volume to surface area. A skep is probably the most efficient in this regard. There's a theoretical advantage to the more efficient shape vs. extreme cold outside. 

There's a lot more to thermal comfort than any one factor can account for. For instance, Buck Bee's temperate climate is not consistent with his latitude. London and Calgary are about the same distance from the equator.

I don't have the answer, but I hope the debate keeps up. For me, I hope to trade a little solar gain for lack of volumetric efficiency. I've looked at my options and I'd just rather fiddle with TBH's than Lang stuff. It's cheaper and easier to build, I get a little honey at a time over a longer period of time (instead of an annual project), and it's different. Sometimes different is enough.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

BjornBee said:


> Hmmmm....Warre hive....a hive designed and promoted on your very website as being designed to be opened once a year.....a hive that has certain limitation due to comb being joined between boxes....is this what you are referencing? I don't see the hype and fascination in this type beekeeping. But I'm sure some do. Hardly a design that actually facilitates weekly enjoyment of one's bees in my opinion.


If by 'weekly enjoyment' you mean the standard ritual of opening boxes and poking around inside, you are quite right. But I think there are better ways of enjoying beekeeping - like watching them at the entrance, for example, and using observation hives.



> I am quite certain that MrGT had a standard TBH in mind when he asked a direct and pointed question concerning the vertical or horizontal differences of a TBH (And lets be clear....he stated a "tbh" NOT a "warre hive"). I spoke of the differences and limitation of the two standard arrangements that he was referencing. Not nitpicking my answer to every conceivable way to keep bees.


A Warré hive is a vertical top bar hive. It has top bars. It is vertical. How else would you describe it?



> My own opinion is the warre hive is nothing more than a langstroth hive with hanging comb with associated problems. If you want to promote it, fine. Go for it.


Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but I don't quite see what you mean. From above, a Langstroth is rectangular, while a Warré is square. Langs are considerably wider and longer and deeper. They use frames. Warrés are designed not to be opened during the season. Boxes are added from below, not on top...


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Buckbee,
You don't need to elaborate on the details of the Warre hive. They have been around for hundreds of years. And in this time period, very little following, very little practical advantages has occurred. There are reasons for this. Yes, I have my opinion. And for anyone wanting something unique, I say go for it. But its hardly the perfect, easier, enjoyable, or more practical way of keeping bees. Yes, some have posted some old information and revived this old style of hive arrangement. Seems it happens every so often. Its nothing new, thats for sure.

I'll probably add one this spring to my collection of other beehives I have on display. That way, others can see the pro and con issues themselves.

In the meantime, I'll set aside any "better control of moisture' comments as false hype and self promoting marketing. Moisture concerns certainly do not need to be an issue with any hive. And you certainly do not need to change every hive over to Warre hive to obtain such.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Hey Bjorne 
Put the gun away I was just asking a question about your comment not picking it apart, 

On the other hand if you want to pick it apart you were flat out wrong that is what a Warre is a multiple stacked chamber with free hanging comb!

Now draw!


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

BjornBee said:


> Buckbee,
> You don't need to elaborate on the details of the Warre hive. They have been around for hundreds of years. And in this time period, very little following, very little practical advantages has occurred. There are reasons for this.


Weel, a hundred years or so - but I suspect the main reason they have had little attention is that pretty much all the info about them until recently has been in French - and let's face it, Brits and Yanks aren't exactly the best at paying close attention to stuff that is not in English!

Honestly, I really don't know how good they are yet - I have nearly finished building one and will populate it as soon as the weather improves - and I am willing to give them a try side-by-side with my hTBHs. My only real concern is the lifting - albeit only at the end of the season, but I'm in no hurry for a hernia. I will be designing a lift of some sort.



> In the meantime, I'll set aside any "better control of moisture' comments as false hype and self promoting marketing. Moisture concerns certainly do not need to be an issue with any hive. And you certainly do not need to change every hive over to Warre hive to obtain such.


OK - let's be clear about this - I have no vested interest in the Warré or any other hive. Yes I do sell my book (The Barefoot Beekeeper), but I don't sell any hardware and have no plans to do so. In my book, I deal (I hope) even-handedly with both hTBHs and vTBHs, despite not yet having any first-hand experience of the latter (I describe them and how they work, but cast no opinions either way).

As to the 'heat and moisture' issue, I don't think this has really had the attention it deserves and David Heaf's translation of Johann Thur's article on the subject is well worth a (free) read (http://www.biobees.com/downloads/thur.pdf) It sets out the theory behind 'leave well alone' beekeeping (as in the Warré) very clearly and it has convinced me that this matter deserves some research. I don't think dismissing it out of hand as 'false hype' is fair comment and I hope you will take the trouble to read it up.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

BjornBee said:


> My own opinion is the warre hive is nothing more than a langstroth hive with hanging comb with associated problems. If you want to promote it, fine. Go for it.


Didn't you just say this was impossible! 

Didn't you just say you may add one next season to your collection? That means you have really never had your hands on one!

Pretty opinionated for a person who has never touched one don't ya think!

In the Army we say "I would rather stay in my lane" when we know we can't give an educated opinion about a particular topic rather than open our mouth and contradict ourselves! Thats why I asked the question in the first place!!!!!


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

MIKI, you asked the question ignorant of the fact that I was comparing a standard TBH and a standard hive. You brought up the warre hive.

Now lets see where were at....you suggest that my opinion is incorrectly placed, all the while in a previous post acknowledging you have never kept one yourself.

Some of my information and opinion is based on information you yourself post on your website.


I never said it impossible. (I did, but my point was "impossible without problems.) Your reading into it too much and adding words. (Poor communication to say the least.) I said that and my point was, that I felt that Warre hives were nothing more than standard hive with modified frames with hanging comb. Certainly not anything different than someone going without foundation, except now throw in comb connection issues. I guess you can throw in a modified top for moisture....boy, there's something nobody ever thought of...  And bottom supering....never heard of that before.

BTW, was it not you who argued my thoughts and ideas of heat retention and usefulness of a follower board not to long ago. Yet, I see the warre hive promotes the idea of heat retention by means of the hands off idea. Seems that heat retention and having the hive seal those upper cracks are along the same lines of what I had been saying now for several years, all the while trying to convince the likes of people like you.

And now you suggest that the whole warre hive system has been kept a secret for hundreds of years due to a language barrier. What a hoot! I would of imagined that this is about as lame as it gets. Yes, thats right, the best beekeeping system, has been been written about, and maintained for hundreds of years, right in places like France......only to be "found" now due to some translated writings.

Ok, give me some more.......


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

MIKI said:


> I understand this part of your comments to say having multiple stacked chamber with free hanging comb is not possible, I thought that is what a Warre is. Am I taking something out of context or could you clarify.


Oh you said not possible, still wrong!

I did not argue heat retention with you I asked you and there you made a point! Enough to make me rethink follower boards( Phil contributed to that decision also) The reason I got involved in that conversation was to try to learn something because I know I don't know everything. 

I was actually trying to pick the brain of a bee inspector who lives in a climate similar to mine I thought it would be a smart idea. 

[edited by mod]

>And now you suggest that the whole warre hive system has been kept a secret for hundreds of years due to a language barrier. What a hoot! I would of imagined that this is about as lame as it gets. Yes, thats right, the best beekeeping system, has been been written about, and maintained for hundreds of years, right in places like France......only to be "found" now due to some translated writings.<

Go back and look this was not me! Stop tap dancing!


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Yes, it was Buckbee. My bad. I'll stand by the rest.

Not sure the reason MIKI. I have been trying so hard lately to be good and help where I can. [mod edit] I'm scratching my head.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

I've run my tbh in a very northern climate. It's comb is taller than most. And I haven't had any winter problems with it. When the bees are clustered, very little heat or moisture is lost outside the cluster.

It's when the cluster breaks, in early spring that heat and moisture are lost.

For a time, in early spring, my tbh is more active than my 3 deep langs. I suspect that the tbhs shorter height traps or maintains a higher temperature nearer the cluster. The temperature in the top box of my Langs is often much warmer than the box the cluster is in.

But as outside nighttime temperatures moderate, the Langs tend to expand a little faster and catch up. By dandelion bloom they are equal.

In could be, that under some conditions, a vertical hive could have an advantage.

I like to explore the beekeeping envelop and I'm really interesting in observing very tall natural comb and bee behavior, I've seen the horizontal version. The Warre hive is ideally suited for such a purpose. You can see my take and thoughts about it at:

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/vertical-tbh/

I haven't seen much difference in bee behavior between my tall Langs verses my horizontal tbh. But there could be factors, in a Lang, that might interfere with that. 

I had originally planned to build a tall, square tbh, with one side hinged and protected from comb attachments with a cloth cover, to study tall natural comb. The Warre hive is a neat improvement over my hinged design. And it offers a chance to test some neat management ideas if everything works out.

A Warre hive could be the ultimate let alone type hive for someone who wants bee. And would rather do a little lifting once a year, than fiddle with bees/comb. In certain situations it could be the ultimate urban hive.

Regards
Dennis


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## Shapleigh's Bees (Mar 8, 2008)

BWrangler said:


> ...I suspect that the tbhs shorter height traps or maintains a higher temperature nearer the cluster. The temperature in the top box of my Langs is often much warmer than the box the cluster is in.


Chimney effect. In order for the hot air to rise one foot inside the hive, it has to draw in one foot of outside air. Once it exits, it does not draw more. The taller your stack, the faster your air turn-over.

Are you sure your are in a rut?


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

BWrangler said:


> A Warre hive could be the ultimate let alone type hive for someone who wants bee. And would rather do a little lifting once a year, than fiddle with bees/comb. In certain situations it could be the ultimate urban hive.
> Dennis


Hi Dennis,

I notice you have gone for a rather bigger box (wider and deeper) than Warré prescribed. I'd be interested to hear your reasons for this, and why those particular measurements?


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Buckbee,

I've found that a hive equivalent to three deep Lang boxes, or about 7824 cubic inches, is a good starting point for prolific bees in a northern climate. It's slightly larger than they require, but that gives the beekeeper a few more options. I wanted lighter weight boxes than Lang deeps. So, I divided that volume into four boxes of about 1956 cubic inches each.

I wanted comb tall enough that a small cell broodnest core could be built in a single box. From my horizontal tbh observations, that's at least 10". And taller is better. 

Top bars were center at 1 1/4", which is an ideal broodnest core spacing. An additional bee space was added on each side.

And I wanted essentially square boxes built from conventional lumber. It optimizes lumber per volume and minimizes labor. And it increases the vertical ratio of this hive.

Working with these parameters, I found that I could glue two 1x8's together for the building stock. And construct a square box with a 14 1/2" exterior and 13" interior measurement. 

That should allow a more spherical shape for an overwintering cluster, than the narrower box of the Warre'. In my Langs, most of the bees cluster across 6 to 7 frames or about 9 inches.With The Warre' that would only leave less than one frame width between the cluster and both sidewalls. In a harsh environment, I think that outside frame, usually filled with feed, buffers rapid temperature change.

My cover and bottom board are patterned after the migratory style I'm familiar with. They are the identical and can be used interchangeably. If desired, a 2" thick piece of blue foam can be cut to fit snuggly between the covers cleats, and used for additional insulation. The cover doesn't have any of the moisture absorbing features of the Warre' cover. And no upper ventilation either. But those things are easily provided or changed if needed.

Although designed around four boxes. The fourth box is actually optional. I plan to use it to store feed comb or as a super, but hope it proves extraneous.

If the bees build a complete broodnest structure in a single box, hive management will be focused on a three box rotation with absolutely no other kind of management. I hope that such a system will mimic the vigor, vitality and lack of disease associated with feral colonies.

Such a hive could be ideal for someone, like my wife, who enjoys having the bees around. She likes to watch them come and go. Values the pollination in her garden. And takes comfort in their presences, as they increase her interaction with nature. But she doesn't want to mess with any hive internals or bee biology. She likes a little honey, but doesn't want to be a producer.

Ideally, such a hive could be managed, in a hands off situation, for years. And then still be easily worked should the need arise.

Regards
Dennis


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Thanks Dennis, I shall be most interested to see how that pans out over several seasons.

I have not quite finished my first Warré and I have followed pretty much the original dimensions. I'm particularly interested to see how running this style of hive compares to the horizontal variety in similar conditions - do you know of anyone who has run both horizontal and vertical hives side-by-side for any length of time?


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