# bees only heat the cluster?



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

They still apply in my shed also


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

Easy enough to tell where the cluster is, ain't it?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh no, not again. Please.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Oh no, not again. Please.


Sorry....I couldn't resist.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Fry an egg on top and I'll believe you!!!!!!

Cool pics btw . Thanks for posting!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

For some _enlightening_ posts on this subject, here is a link to the previous version of this topic .... Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive? ... I wonder if any members of the _Flat Earth Society_ have changed their views in the interim. :kn::lpf:


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Just small crop circles no doubt caused by UFO's


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Just small crop circles no doubt caused by UFO's


Very small UFOs, of course.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

according to my literature, each one of my hives in the shed is expelling about 10w of heat. Multiply that 900 times, and I have a heating source in my wintering shed equivalent to a 9000w heater. Pretty cool


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Ian said:


> according to my literature, each one of my hives in the shed is expelling about 10w of heat. Multiply that 900 times, and I have a heating source in my wintering shed equivalent to a 9000w heater. Pretty cool


Don't get it too close to your curtains or you'll have a real issue.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Come on now, putting your big coffee mug on there before taking the shot doesn't count.... the bees only heat the cluster, heat never radiates away from the source....... Inconceivable!!!


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

and so perfectly round also - must be perfectionist bees 

sorry - couldn't resist either..


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Ian said:


> according to my literature, each one of my hives in the shed is expelling about 10w of heat. Multiply that 900 times, and I have a heating source in my wintering shed equivalent to a 9000w heater. Pretty cool


So how many hives do I need to heat my house?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> For those diehard 'bees only heat the cluster' folks here is frosty morning proof that the laws of physics still apply to the inside of a beehive.


I should put our bird bath on top of my hive to save electricity.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/DSCF7262_zps0505d69d.jpg

Nope, don't think that is going to work.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/... Winter 2013/HivesinWinter006_zps5ac9be7e.jpg


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

FlowerPlanter said:


> So how many hives do I need to heat my house?


It is easy to get rid of the heat. Not so easy to waste the moisture. Ian, what is it costing you to keep these bees alive per hive.


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

OMG - did you get hammered with snow this year, or is a normal snow fall for you guys ??



Acebird said:


> I should put our bird bath on top of my hive to save electricity.
> 
> http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/DSCF7262_zps0505d69d.jpg
> 
> ...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It's normal but it is last years photos. I saw somewhere that Utica is #11 in snowfall for the country.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

beemandan said:


> For those diehard 'bees only heat the cluster' folks here is frosty morning proof that the laws of physics still apply to the inside of a beehive.


Physics is hard to deny, and the heat will rise. Now, if they were heating the whole hive, frost would be gone over the entire cover, instead of just a little circle in the center, directly above the cluster.


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## UTvolshype (Nov 26, 2012)

:lpf:


grozzie2 said:


> Physics is hard to deny, and the heat will rise. Now, if they were heating the whole hive, frost would be gone over the entire cover, instead of just a little circle in the center, directly above the cluster.


Bingo, we have a winner!:lpf: Or in a few weeks you would have wall to wall brood pattern!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

grozzie2 said:


> Now, if they were heating the whole hive, frost would be gone over the entire cover, instead of just a little circle in the center, directly above the cluster.


If they were only heating the cluster there'd be frost over the entire cover.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I should put our bird bath on top of my hive to save electricity.
> Nope, don't think that is going to work.


It _certainly _isn't going to work with _DEAD _bees, Ace! :lpf:


... _dead _bees are the exception to the rule ...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Sorry....I couldn't resist.


 I can resist anything. Other than temptation. lol


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Very small UFOs, of course.


Not necessarily. You don't know how big or small the aliens are.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ian said:


> according to my literature, each one of my hives in the shed is expelling about 10w of heat. Multiply that 900 times, and I have a heating source in my wintering shed equivalent to a 9000w heater. Pretty cool


Set up a heat pump and warm your house.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> Ian, what is it costing you to keep these bees alive per hive.


The cost would be the hydro pulled to run my fans, I dont have that figure calculated. Thats it other than the cost of the syrup in the hives. We typically put 5 gallons into them in the fall


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I'd wager it is a fair bit less than repacement cost!


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## WCMN (Jan 29, 2008)

Do they have an inner cover with a hole? That's why the melted area is small.



Randy....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> If they were only heating the cluster there'd be frost over the entire cover.


If the cluster were at the bottom of the hive your statement would be true. But my guess is the cluster is glued to the top. Not what I would want to see here right now.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

WCMN said:


> Do they have an inner cover with a hole? That's why the melted area is small.


They do have inner covers. Every hive in the yard had a circle of melted frost....most near the center, which I figured was largely because of the inner cover. I think the size of the melt is proportional to the size of the cluster and the distance from the inner cover. In the second photo there's a relatively small melt on a three deep hive. Those bees are still clustered in the bottom two boxes yet have a fairly large cluster. The first photo is a two deep hive....about the same size cluster as the other but nearer the top. There were some in the yard that nearly the entire top was melted...bigger clusters...close up. 
Anyway....as soon as I saw them, I went for the camera and knew how I'd be posting them. I was just being bad....as usual.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Not what I would want to see here right now.


As opposed to your deadouts? In the second photo....the three deep hive went into winter with a nice, very big cluster with nearly two deeps full of honey. They haven't even moved into that top deep yet. By March....different story.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Anyway....as soon as I saw them, I went for the camera and knew how I'd be posting them. I was just being bad....as usual.


Well, your name is badmandan after all.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

beemandan said:


> As opposed to your deadouts?



Dan, this thread is going to start to spin pretty soon! lol


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Well, your name is badmandan after all.


That would surely be plenty appropriate.



Ian said:


> Dan, this thread is going to start to spin pretty soon! lol


That's half the fun....don't ya think?


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

I've heard the bees actually cool the hive by concentrating any heat into the cluster. When they have too much heat, they allow it to rise out which explains the melted circle on top.

And in case you don't believe me, one more fact - the aliens taught them this technique.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Dan,

Just put some insulation over the inner cover and your problem will be fixed!

Tom


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

TWall said:


> Just put some insulation over the inner cover and your problem will be fixed!


This is bad news! I didn't even know I had a problem....at least with my bees.....


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> And in case you don't believe me, one more fact - the aliens taught them this technique.


I'm beginning to believe that the bees are the aliens themselves. The melted circles on top of the hives from the spaceships that were parked there overnight. I might just have to rethink this whole alienkeeping thing I've gotten myself into.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

beemandan said:


> If they were only heating the cluster there'd be frost over the entire cover.


Only if the cluster of bees has somehow figured out how to prevent warm air from rising.


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## rsderrick (May 7, 2006)

I'm just hoping there's not moisture build up on the inside.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

grozzie2 said:


> Only if the cluster of bees has somehow figured out how to prevent warm air from rising.


Look at it any way you choose. The heat isn't confined to the cluster.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Maybe try the insulation on top of the telescopic cover!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

beemandan said:


> Look at it any way you choose. The heat isn't confined to the cluster.


of course it's not. warm air rises. that's why nectar is stored overhead and processed into honey, and why the broodnest expands upward into that stored honey coming out of winter.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I know it is stated that they only heat the cluster but put a beehive under a six foot snow bank and in the spring there will be an ice cave the size of a 55 gallon drum. I guess that is just plain magic.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

TWall said:


> Dan,
> 
> Just put some insulation over the inner cover and your problem will be fixed!
> 
> Tom


What problem is that?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mgolden said:


> Maybe try the insulation on top of the telescopic cover!


Why? To protect the air above the hive from getting warm?


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## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

If the cluster is the only thing heated, does the frames of honey away from the cluster freeze in a hive?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, as much as honey freezes.


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## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

Could this be a factor in bees that starve in really cold weather? If it "honey freezes" even if they are in contact with its frozen periphery would it be to cold and stiff for them to consume?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No. If the cluster is right up against honey that honey will not be frozen making it hard for the bees to consume.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I don't know what the freezing point of honey is but I know it is much lower than water. Therefore....if the cluster were in contact with it and it was cold enough to freeze....it'd be because the bees were already dead.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If the bee were dead there would be no cluster.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> If the bee were dead there would be no cluster.


Not so Ace.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> If the bee were dead there would be no cluster.


If you were dead, wouldn't your body still be your body, even if it were right up against the refrigerator or not?

Do you know what a cluster is? Or what is meant when a colony of honey bees is referred to as being in a cluster? As opposed to not being so? And then we just refer to them as a colony of bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Heat radiating from a clustered colony of honey bees does not heat the cavity that they are in like we heat our human habitations. If it can be said that a colony of bees has intentions, their intention is to maintain a core temperature of the clustered bees so any brood present can survive, but also so the warmth radiating from the mass will keep the outer most bees warm enough to maintain muscle control so that they do not fall from the cluster and die.

Just like most people lose the greatest amount of heat from their body from the top of their head, a cluster of bees does too. Thus the melted spot on top of beemandan's hive. Thus the snow cave with the hole on top should hives get covered with enough snow.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

So sweep up those dead bees off the bottom and pour them in a bowl and you will have your cluster, right. A cluster of bees is an organized clump of live bees. If they die most of them will be on the bottom board and far from organized.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

This last post of yours show how little you have learned from your bees, living and dead. The cluster once was alive and now it is dead and it is still in cluster. A cluster is a state of being, whether dead or alive. Thus a dead cluster.

Is there really any argument here? Or are you just determined to not agree on terminology?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

This reminds me of an expression meaning 'confusion' that begins with the word 'cluster'.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Just like most people lose the greatest amount of heat from their body from the top of their head, a cluster of bees does too.


A cluster is a heat source that will dissipate heat in all directions. This energy warms air molecules that will rise. It it the air that causes it to go up not the heat source in the cluster.
People loose heat from the top of the head because of blood flow. If you stand on your hands you will still lose the heat from your head. I agree that the cluster is heated by the bees and the box just happens to contain some of the heat loss but is not the intent. I do not believe that all the dead bees on the bottom board is a cluster.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

cg3 said:


> This reminds me of an expression meaning 'confusion' that begins with the word 'cluster'.


cg3; would that be something like clusterflock?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Amazing how many seem to think that opinions have the power of changing the laws of physics! Mind over matter is alive and well.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> A cluster is a heat source that will dissipate heat in all directions. I do not believe that all the dead bees on the bottom board is a cluster.


The bees on the floor of the hive are no longer in cluster. You are the only one mentioning them.

Have you ever seen a cluster of grapes? If a cluster of grapes dies, and the individual grapes do not fall off, those grapes are still a cluster of grapes. a cluster of dead grapes, just like a cluster of dead bees is still a cluster.

You can't have the heat source w/out live bees, but you can have a cluster of dead bees. Bees that have clustered together to stay warm by sharing body heat.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Perhaps the definition of insanity as it relates to internet forums is repeating the same thread and expecting a different result.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

crofter said:


> cg3; would that be something like clusterflock?


A joke that requires explanation loses its punch. We all knew what he meant. Anyone who didn't needs not have it explained to them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Perhaps the definition of insanity as it relates to internet forums is repeating the same thread and expecting a different result.


:thumbsup:


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I do not believe that all the dead bees on the bottom board is a cluster.


I'm not sure if anyone other than you is actually referring to piles of bees on the bottom board as a cluster. If you have ever done an examination on a healthy colony that starved you will find most of the "cluster" intact on the frames, not on the bottom board. Many of the bees will be in the cells headfirst and bees will be packed in between the frames in a cluster ... just as they were when they were alive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If a group of beekeepers gather around a specific topic and one beekeeper argues about what one of the words in the Thread title means, is that a cluster of sorts? Are the folks in agreement clustered together in thought and the one outlier dead on the bottom?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> A joke that requires explanation loses its punch. We all knew what he meant. Anyone who didn't needs not have it explained to them.


Mark did someone mess on your cornflakes this morning?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I do not believe that all the dead bees on the bottom board is a cluster.


I suppose that someone whose bees regularly die before the weather turns cold wouldn't understand. The way it works Ace is that when the weather turns cold, the bees collect into a clump that we call a cluster. If they die that way...much of the physical cluster remains intact....just a bunch of dead bees in a cluster. One day you may see this for yourself.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Perhaps the definition of insanity as it relates to internet forums is repeating the same thread and expecting a different result.


Although I am the author of this particular insanity....I wasn't really expecting a different result. Sometimes....when things seem to get too quiet I have a tendency to misbehave.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> If you have ever done an examination on a healthy colony that starved you will find most of the "cluster" intact on the frames, not on the bottom board. Many of the bees will be in the cells headfirst and bees will be packed in between the frames in a cluster ... just as they were when they were alive.


Every dead colony that I have taken apart has either been empty of bees or all the bees are dead on the bottom board. I have never seen dead bees in a cluster. Yes, I have seen a hundred or so head first in cells but not what I would call a cluster. So why do mine fall to the bottom board and others stay clumped in a cluster?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

If they are zapped by cold with insufficient stored feed, they will die in cluster. This alone cause issues as that cluster will mold and spoil the comb before the hive can be taken apart to clean,


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

beemandan said:


> Although I am the author of this particular insanity....I wasn't really expecting a different result. Sometimes....when things seem to get too quiet I have a tendency to misbehave.


Ha ha. Probably should have hung a smiley after that post. I find this thread amusing not annoying. Hey, it's the crazy season for beekeepers, they are either bored to death or all stressed out about almond pollination.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

crofter said:


> Mark did someone mess on your cornflakes this morning?


Did you really think anyone didn't know what Charlie was saying w/out saying?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Although I am the author of this particular insanity....I wasn't really expecting a different result. Sometimes....when things seem to get too quiet I have a tendency to misbehave.


Bad bad beemandan.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Bad bad beemandan.


priceless.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Every dead colony that I have taken apart has either been empty of bees or all the bees are dead on the bottom board. I have never seen dead bees in a cluster.


Then I would guess that something other than starvation is doing in your colonies. Most of my dead out hives that I've examined with either few bees remaining or dead bees covering the bottom board were the result of mite pressure.

It's a disheartening experience to take apart a dead out hive and find a massive cluster on the frames just inches away from stores.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

beemandan said:


> For those diehard 'bees only heat the cluster' folks here is frosty morning proof that the laws of physics still apply to the inside of a beehive.


So are you saying the bees wanted to melt the frost on the cover?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Barry said:


> So are you saying the bees wanted to melt the frost on the cover?


Probably as much as my bees want to heat my wintering room 
Just imagine if they wanted to, I'd need to supply more honey to winter on !


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> A cluster is a heat source that will dissipate heat in all directions.


A cluster of what? And what is the heat source?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> A cluster of what? And what is the heat source?


A cluster of honeybees. The heat source is the shivering bees in the cluster.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm glad you understand that. But they aren't actually shivering. Shivering bees are dying bees. If you ever see them and see them shivering.

So yes, the bees themselves are the heat source. The way you put it made it seem like you thought otherwise. Glad we got that cleared up.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> But they aren't actually shivering. Shivering bees are dying bees.


:scratch: Everything that I have read says that is what they do.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What have you read? Who wrote it?

If you pull the top off of a hive of bees and can visibly observe the bees shivering they are dying, starving. A cluster of bees generates heat by flexing wing muscles w/out producing any observable movement. Basically calisthenics. That's what I was taught.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Basically calisthenics.


What do you do when you shiver? The same thing. Yours is not voluntary theirs is. They can do it for a long time, you cannot. Why do you do it? To generate heat same as them.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Bad bad beemandan.





squarepeg said:


> priceless.


While You've become famous...with your own thread and all.....I've become infamous.



Barry said:


> So are you saying the bees wanted to melt the frost on the cover?


Indeed. They love me so much, they want to show me that they're alive and well. A cosmic message from my bees to me. Sometimes, instead, they'll each melt a letter on their roof. All I have to do is go along putting the letters together to get their message. Now my breeding secret is out. I've been selecting for literacy. Punctuation has continued to evade me.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> What do you do when you shiver? The same thing. Yours is not voluntary theirs is. They can do it for a long time, you cannot. Why do you do it? To generate heat same as them.


You are confused about this. Misunderstanding and possibly misinformed. Lacking experience and actual visual observation. That's my diagnosis.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> While You've become famous...with your own thread and all.....I've become infamous.
> 
> 
> Indeed. They love me so much, they want to show me that they're alive and well. A cosmic message from my bees to me. Sometimes, instead, they'll each melt a letter on their roof. All I have to do is go along putting the letters together to get their message. Now my breeding secret is out. I've been selecting for literacy. Punctuation has continued to evade me.


I have had literate bees too. Often when going back to check hives I had feed dry sugar to I would find crossword puzzles filled in. I don't know where they got the pen from.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> What have you read? Who wrote it?


I saw it on the interweb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZALsrh5yAo


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hahahaha, that makes me shiver. Thanks Barry. I needed that. I hopoe everybody enjoys that as much as I did.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> A cluster of bees generates heat by flexing wing muscles w/out producing any observable movement.


Sorry, Ace, Mark is right - _again_. 

Here is an actual reference: The Buzz about Bees: Biology of a Superorganism By Jürgen Tautz




> This heating posture, in which they sit at least half a body lower than other bees on the comb, is easily recognized and they will maintain this attitude, completely motionless for up to 30 minutes. [HIGHLIGHT]One could take these bees for dead.[/HIGHLIGHT]
> 
> _Read the rest yourself, page 209:
> _https://books.google.com/books?id=T...AEwAg#v=onepage&q=heater bees visible&f=false


:gh:



Acebird said:


> They can do it for a long time, you cannot.


" ... long time ..." :s

You consider 30 minutes a long time? :scratch:


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Acebird said:


> If they die most of them will be on the bottom board and far from organized.


Bless your heart...:gh: I guess I should have taken pics of some that I wish I could say I didn't lose this year. inch:



beemandan said:


> I suppose that someone whose bees regularly die before the weather turns cold wouldn't understand. The way it works Ace is that when the weather turns cold, the bees collect into a clump that we call a cluster. If they die that way...much of the physical cluster remains intact....just a bunch of dead bees in a cluster. One day you may see this for yourself.


Lol....sucker punch to the gut! Things are definitely getting rowdy around here! :lpf:



beemandan said:


> Sometimes....when things seem to get too quiet I have a tendency to misbehave.


I can totally relate to that! Your posts are starting to grow on me I think....lol. 

By the looks of things, I'd say people are getting tired of winter and are ready for Spring.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

TalonRedding said:


> By the looks of things, I'd say people are getting tired of winter and are ready for Spring.


Yep....unfortunately....things are likely to get worse before they get better.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't know where they got the pen from.


I often leave a sharpie (hive tools, smokers and all sorts of other things too) in each beeyard. I use the sharpies to make notes on the tops of the hives. I buy sharpies by the gross...and one lives in my pocket all the time and I can always find some in the truck. In a recent example I wrote on the cover of one....'needs queen'. When I returned a few days later, there was a line drawn through it and the word....'done' beneath. Sure enough....inside was a nice new marked queen. You see the advantage of leaving a writing tool for more than crossword puzzles..... 

Of course there's always the remote possibility that during that very busy time I managed to return, install a queen and then let it slip my old mind. But I'm pretty sure the bees took care of it for me.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

beemandan said:


> In a recent example I wrote on the cover of one....'needs queen'. When I returned a few days later, there was a line drawn through it and the word....'done' beneath.


:
:lpf::lpf:
I need some of these. If them write in portuguese better. It is too much to ask?


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

beemandan said:


> Punctuation has continued to evade me.


As the (slightly modified) saying goes, bees that are guilty of not using punctuation deserve long sentences!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Not saying I don't believe your "done" story but it would have been more believable to me had it been written in Italian.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> You are confused about this. Misunderstanding and possibly misinformed.


How so?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> You consider 30 minutes a long time? :scratch:


I sure do. How long do you think you can shiver after you fall into cold waters?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I sure do. How long do you think you can shiver after you fall into cold waters?


Gee, Ace, I thought we were talking about bees heating the cluster???? :scratch:  :kn:
I think that cluster of bees will be _dead _long before they have spent '30 minutes in cold water(s)'. 


Ace, try this on for size. _Individual _'heater' bees do not necessarily act as heater bees on a permanent 24/7 basis. They rotate tasks/positions - try _READing_ the link I offered earlier.

:gh:


... read it two or three times if that is what it takes ... inch:

.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Not saying I don't believe your "done" story but it would have been more believable to me had it been written in Italian.


Did I mention....literate and multilingual?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> try _READing_ the link I offered earlier.


That is a very interesting link. 

After reading it I'm wondering how much additional energy the bees might need to expend to warm the brood nest if there is "plastic" foundation in the brood nest rather than "all wax" comb. 

It would make sense that heat would transfer much more easily through the inner "wax" base of the cell to the other side, rather than a plastic cell base. I wonder if the plastic might actually act as a heat barrier or obstruction when looking at the entire brood nest as one unit.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Mike Gillmore said:


> It would make sense that heat would transfer much more easily through the inner "wax" base of the cell to the other side, rather than a plastic cell base.


What makes you think this?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Not saying I don't believe your "done" story but it would have been more believable to me had it been written in Italian.


Or caucasian?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> How so?


Explaining it to *you*​ is beyond my ability.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mike Gillmore said:


> That is a very interesting link.
> 
> After reading it I'm wondering how much additional energy the bees might need to expend to warm the brood nest if there is "plastic" foundation in the brood nest rather than "all wax" comb.
> 
> It would make sense that heat would transfer much more easily through the inner "wax" base of the cell to the other side, rather than a plastic cell base. I wonder if the plastic might actually act as a heat barrier or obstruction when looking at the entire brood nest as one unit.


Back when plastic foundation, aka Duragilt, was first in use discussion going around was whether the plastic made it hard for bees to handle cold temps. Whether the part of the comb not covered with bees being cold would seep coldness into the part covered by bees. I don't know if any conclusions were come to.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

beemandan said:


> What makes you think this?


I don't know, just a thought. A thick layer of plastic vs. a thin layer of wax. Just thinking out loud I guess.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I don't know, just a thought. A thick layer of plastic vs. a thin layer of wax. Just thinking out loud I guess.


I don't have a particular opinion except that I supposed that wax and plastic probably had similar thermal conductivity. Only a guess. 
The thickness of the midrib of wax varies. There's regular wax foundation....then thin surplus...thin surplus being noticeably thinner. I think that regular wax foundation and plastic are close to the same thickness. Now...when I've gone foundationless...that midrib seemed considerably thicker. 
Having said all of that....I just never thought there was a significant difference in heat shared from side to side...but I could be wrong and I wondered if you had the facts.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Explaining it to *you*​ is beyond my ability.


I thought so.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> I just never thought there was a significant difference in heat shared from side to side...


If there is bees on both sides there is no sharing of heat. You have to assume each bee puts out the same amount of btu's so there is no temperature difference between one side and the other so there is no heat transfer.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I thought so.


And even if it were not, it seems as though it is beyond your understanding or willingness to understand. In other words, the fault that you can't or won't understand is no a fault of mine.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> If there is bees on both sides there is no sharing of heat. You have to assume each bee puts out the same amount of btu's so there is no temperature difference between one side and the other so there is no heat transfer.


Yer the engineer.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> it seems as though it is beyond your understanding or willingness to understand.


Or it is beyond your understanding and now you are somewhat embarrassed to admit it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Whatever Nancy.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Or it is beyond your understanding and now you are somewhat embarrassed to admit it.





sqkcrk said:


> Whatever Nancy.


Thank you for your contributions to the forum Sqkcrk! :thumbsup:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't know whether to take you seriously or not. :lpf:


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

Acebird said:


> A cluster is a heat source that will dissipate heat in all directions. This energy warms air molecules that will rise. It it the air that causes it to go up not the heat source in the cluster.
> People loose heat from the top of the head because of blood flow. If you stand on your hands you will still lose the heat from your head. I agree that the cluster is heated by the bees and the box just happens to contain some of the heat loss but is not the intent. I do not believe that all the dead bees on the bottom board is a cluster.


i didn't know light bulbs where clusters. couldn't help it


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

j.kuder said:


> i didn't know light bulbs where clusters. couldn't help it


Yes, they are a cluster of photons emitted at a high rate of speed. I don't know if they are dead or not.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You have to assume each bee puts out the same amount of btu's .


You don't have to assume any such thing. In fact you'd be foolish to assume an exact balance between the two sides.



sqkcrk said:


> Yer the engineer.


Who says?


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## Jim Brewster (Dec 17, 2014)

What if hive bodies, frames, and comb were made of solid copper and bees could tolerate it chemically. Could they maintain cluster temperature when heat was being conducted through the furniture at that rate?

What if hives were underwater (and bees had gills)?

It's all about conduction/insulation, convection, and radiation. Saying "bees only heat the cluster" is just shorthand for "bees generate heat to maintain the cluster temperature, regardless of the surrounding temperature." Of course the surrounding temperature, ventilation, moisture, etc. will influence the rate at which bees need to consume fuel in order to maintain the cluster temperature.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought his was the serious thread...


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Jim Brewster said:


> Saying "bees only heat the cluster" is just shorthand for "bees generate heat to maintain the cluster temperature, regardless of the surrounding temperature."


This has always been my translation too but, it seems, some take the statement literally and absolutely and, in my opinion, in total defiance of the laws of thermodynamics. 
We can get serious...but only for a moment or two.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

another translation is that the bees don't regulate the air temperature of the space inside of their cavity. they just maintain cluster temperature which happens to radiate heat into that space. warm air can get trapped up at the top especially if the top is insulated.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Carrying the idea of heat exchange across the comb ....if heat were not shared, then, for example, a cluster spanning four frames would, instead of being one large cluster, effectively be four significantly smaller clusters....each with a dramatically reduced prospect of winter survival. ...in my opinion. Plenty of heat being shared in the real world.....again in my opinion.
And squarepeg....your translation of the phrase also fits mine. The point being that one cannot ignore the laws of thermodynamics....


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Left: no insulation. Right: insulated hive.









Good read: http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/CAT72345678/PDF


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Who says?


He does. But I'm wondering whether it is true or not. Not that whether it is true or not matters one bit.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> The point being that one cannot ignore the laws of thermodynamics....


What about dynamic thermals? Those we ignore at our own peril, right?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Mark, "he" has backtracked from that claim. I suggest you refer to his "About Me" page. :lookout:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

He whom we shall not name has an "About Me" page? :scratch:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

"His" _About Me_ page is in exactly the same place that yours is ... except that it is under "his" account. 



.... perhaps you prefer to call it a '_Profile_' page ...  ... same thing


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

beemandan said:


> We can get serious...but only for a moment or two.


agreed.

and for those of you who may have concerns, dan is not near as 'bad' as he may appear to be,

but i'm still trying to get that jim croce song out my head.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Hmmm.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but that Jim Croce tune that I'm familiar with was about Big Bad _*Jim*_ :lookout:

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/j/jim+croce/you+dont+mess+around+with+jim_10149470.html


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

maybe i mistook mark's post.

bad bad beemandan made me think of bad bad leroy brown........

that's why i said 'priceless', it made me chuckle. 

of course you don't mess around with jim either.......


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> "His" _About Me_ page is in exactly the same place that yours is ... except that it is under "his" account.
> 
> 
> 
> .... perhaps you prefer to call it a '_Profile_' page ...  ... same thing


I knew what you meant.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> agreed.
> 
> and for those of you who may have concerns, dan is not near as 'bad' as he may appear to be,
> 
> but i'm still trying to get that jim croce song out my head.


Yeah, but he sure is naughty some times.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> maybe i mistook mark's post.
> 
> bad bad beemandan made me think of bad bad leroy brown........
> 
> ...


He is the baddest man in the whole darn beeyard. Huh, doesn't quite have the same ring.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

how 'bout:

so it's bad, bad, beemandan
baddest 'keep 'cross all da land,
his head aint in the sand,
his bees think he's da man.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks ya'll, i finally got that tune out of my head.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> how 'bout:
> 
> so it's bad, bad, beemandan
> baddest 'keep 'cross all da land,
> ...


As much as I dislike "keeper" or "beek", I think "beek" would work better where "'keep" is in this, hmmm, song(?). If I may edit a little.

"So it's bad bad beemandan
baddest beek 'cross da whole darn land
his head ain't always in the sand
an' he keeps his bees the best he can"

Who get's the royalties?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Who get's the royalties?


you do mark, i like your version better. 

(it goes without saying that in this case bad = good, right dan?)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If we don't get sued for copy write infringement we should keep all proceeds for future court costs. 

Check it out now and see what you think.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good thinking mark. i just had a crazy vision about a bunch of us singing it karaoke style if we ever have a beesource symposium. it could work if barry would supply enough mead.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Left: no insulation. Right: insulated hive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That diagrams pretty much describes itself, nice link


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

you nailed it mark, hope dan likes it.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

It's bad, bad beemandan
Keepin' bees without a plan
Badder than a suckin' mite
Meaner than a bee pinched tight.

Once those bees started stingin'
Ol' Dan he started to run
Those bees then took to singin'
Cause they knew ol' Dan was done.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

the talent on this board never ceases to amaze me.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> the talent on this board never ceases to amaze me.


Each of us wisely keeping our day jobs.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I wonder where the cluster is located


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

rwurster said:


> I wonder where the cluster is located


If it is cold enough outside, even the heat dissipated through the cover won't be enough to melt the ice/snow.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If the insulation on top is adequate, the snow will melt off the top after the snow on the ground! Not having top insulation is just plain malfeasance and neglect in prolonged sub freezing locations. Moisture will condense on the lid and drip back down on the cluster and kill them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rwurster said:


> I wonder where the cluster is located


Can't you tell? I can. Or was your question rhetorical?


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