# Placement of JZBZ cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I'm interested in the specifics of where you place your cups and how many.

• How do you space your cups on a cell bar? Do you butt them right up against each other, or do you need to have a certain space between them? I have seen both - what are your thoughts?

• Where within the frame, do you place your cell bars, and how many do you use? I have seen two and three? Are the ones at the top favored over lower ones? It seems that I have seen a lot of photos with more cells on the upper bars, but sometimes I've seen lots of cells on three - what is your experience?

• Is there are ration of bees/resources in a cell builder to the number of queens it can produce? How do you know how many grafts a cell builder can handle? Or is it just a trial and error thing?

Thanks,

Adam


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## ken rice (Apr 28, 2010)

Hi Adam, I use a med 10 frame box as a starter, finisher. I place a frame of fresh brood to the box two days before i place my cups, at which time i remove the brood.Once I place the cells they are not removed until day 13 to mating nucs. I use one med frame with two cell bars. One at top and one mid way. I space 10 cups across bars for a total of only 20 cups.I dont want to over work the colony I feed pollen sub and syrup. Hope this helps.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Ahhh...This is a subject I have worked on to perfect. Cells to far apart invite bees making comb all over capped cells.
Put the cups close together and fill your frame, you have too many cells in a finisher = poorly fed queens, stretching the resources of the finisher hive too thin.

With a 9 frame queenless PACKED starter hive, I will start as many as 45 cells (3 jzbz bars, 3 rows)
Once started I transfer 15 started cells to a frame to go into a queenright finishing hive. My finishng frames have a half sheet of black rite cell on the bottom half-15 cells on the bar on the top. 
Why not just start 15 cells on that frame? I could if I had more starter hives, but for now I only have one set up. Especially if have used a grid and have a lot of cups to start. I didn;t have much luck last year trying to start two frames at the same time in a starter. Tried them together and then seperated by frames of bees. Got a good start on one frame and spotty start on the other. Maybe I should give it another try though...

I actually like transfering the started cells so there are no empty cells on the bar.
Cells are close together as spaced out by the JZBZ plastic cell bar-so comb issues are far less than last year. Foundation on the bottom gets drawn out and filled with feed-since it is never exposed to a laying queen. Cell frame with it's own supply of feed. I like it.
I'll take some photos asap and post them so you can see.

One note: A person could also put the half sheet of foundtion on the top of the frame and the cell bar in the middle, possibly better representing a normal placement of queens cells (Around the edge, lower portion and bottom of the natural comb) I have not made one yet but plan to do so. Since the graft frame is always placed on top a strong hive, the bottom half of the frame would be somewhat warmer-closer to the broodnest and center of the hive.

I'm still playing around, reinventing the wheel as I do, until I start getting more consistant results with big, well fed cells that don't have much comb built around them at day 13. I am pickier than most and expect results that are nothing short of fantastic.

It also depends on the strength of your starter/finisher hives. I don't know how the guys are gettign some of those photos of three cell bars filled with capped cells ..I assume it is at the peak of a flow with a super strong finisher. Possible then I guess.
I have the luxury of not having to make any money doing this. So I go for superior quality, not quantity.
Hope this helps

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: Placement of JZsBZs cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?*

JZsBZs cell bars hold fifteen cell cups. I fasten two JZsBZs cell bars into one medium depth Hoffman frame. I also fasten single JZsBZs cell bars onto narrow pieces of wood (Top Bars), those I use as single cell bars. I can fit three single cell bars (with narrow Top Bars), in the same space the Hoffman frame occupies with its two cell bars. So, I can fit 45 cells with single bars in the same space as one Hoffman cell bar frame with 30 cells.


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## Ruthz (Sep 13, 2011)

*Re: Placement of JZsBZs cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?*

Lauri, do you just move the bar with the started cells into the new frame, or do you hand remove each cup and put them into your new specialty frame?

Also, do you put the cells into your finisher colony above a queen excluder or right in with the brood. I never understood why the current queen wouldn't tear the open queen cells down. Do you understand this?


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

*Re: Placement of JZsBZs cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?*

Adam , when do you plan to start grafting?

Only reason I am asking is, I have all of my equipment to start Queen rearing , but I thought it was too cold right now .
Keep me posted on your progress : )

Ben L


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I really like the plastic JZBZ cell bars. Spacing is predefined. I use a 5-frame deep nuc as a starter/finisher and give them 45 cells. If I need more cells in a hurry, I pull the cells once they are capped and put them in an incubator. My starter/finisher nucs are bubbling over with bees and would surely swarm if queenright. I feed prior and during cell building with 1:1 and a small patty.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> How do you space your cups on a cell bar? Do you butt them right up against each other

Yes.

> Where within the frame, do you place your cell bars, and how many do you use? I have seen two and three?

I have two evenly spaced.

> Are the ones at the top favored over lower ones? 

Not particularly.


> Is there are ration of bees/resources in a cell builder to the number of queens it can produce?

Yes.

> How do you know how many grafts a cell builder can handle? Or is it just a trial and error thing?

It depends on a lot of things. The current time of year and the number of drones seems to affect their reproductive drive. The amount of workers available to do the work and the amount of food available to feed also makes a difference. A hive (or starter box) needs to be overflowing with bees... literally...


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

*Re: Placement of JZsBZs cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?*



Ben Little said:


> Adam , when do you plan to start grafting?...


I am aiming to have grafts in by June 15. Too cold now, and there are other things to do. I want to be raising queens right smack in the middle of swarm season.

Adam


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Placement of JZsBZs cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?*

Here's some pics. I obviously have not used them yet, but will update this thread when I see how they are in use. Remember, these frames are meant to only allow a finisher to nurse about 15 cells to help assure they are very well fed. Foundation to fill up the rest of the frame.



















JZBZ bar is just attached with a screw at both ends, spaced from the top so I can turn it for easy cell access if needed

Below is a frame one with the bar in the center instead of the top. This bar can be slid in and out.
My concern with this, frame design is this: When using a half sheet of foundation on the top of a normal deep frame (No queen cell bar) , the bees generally don't draw out the face of the foundation and work their way down, they start at the bottom edge of the foundation, fill in the empty spot and then draw out the face of the foundation. So we'll see how they react to grafts underneath undrawn foundation like this. Once the foundation is drawn however, it should work well.










Here's a standard deep, half sheet drawn frame with no queen bar:









Below is the frame to accept cells from a grid system/ More space than I want for growing cells, but room for a roller cage if I want to protect cells after capping or to just let them hatch out in the finisher.










Make your cell bar so you can turn it out to slip on the roller cages. You'll never be able to get them on after capped queen cells are built, unless you can turn it out.










Heres my mann lake brand grid which I have used many times. Foundation on the sides and below gets filled with nectar and pollen.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I'm interested in the specifics of where you place your cups and how many.
> 
> • How do you space your cups on a cell bar? Do you butt them right up against each other, or do you need to have a certain space between them? I have seen both - what are your thoughts?
> 
> ...


Johnny


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Thanks for the responses. Lauri, you've got some interesting stuff there. I like the one where you've got the cells below the foundation - just because it's typical to have cells along the bottom of combs, but the ability to turn the bar and add protectors is cool.

At this point, I'm going to try Josephs's starter/finisher using nuc boxes, and I'm just mounting JZBZ cups on a wooden bar. I'm going to start with two separate boxes, and attempt two separate grafts so that I can try again if something has too low a success rate.

Adam


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have all medium hive boxes so I use a standard medium wooden frame. In my set up, the cell builder is also
a cell finisher since I over crowd the nuc box with 3 frame of nurse bees and another extra frame
of newly hatched young bees. The grafted qcs went into the middle slot between these frames. 
So it was very crowded with bees in there. No open larvae but only capped brood 
since I am thinking to concentrate all the efforts on putting Royal Jelly into these graft cups. 
I only use 20 plastic cell cups for my graft. I got 13 out of 20 queens took from this batch. The top bar have
holes drilled into the wooden bar to hold the plastic cells.
Then I use foam sponges to line the bottom half of the frame on both sides for supporting the second level
of the next 10 qcs. The second level has a wooden stick that ran across the sponge bar to put the plastic cells in.
I use a drill to drill holes that will hold these plastic cells in place at ~1.5-2" apart. Finally, I feed them honey and 
syrup mixture in a baggie feed for the next 3-5 days. 
So over all this is a very simple set up that doesn't cost much. I use as many recycled materials as I can.
I got good size queens that I am happy with this time. 


Here is a simple set up:


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

*Re: Placement of JZsBZs cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?*



Joseph Clemens said:


> ...I can fit 45 cells with single bars in the same space as one Hoffman cell bar frame with 30 cells.


Joseph,

Are you putting those 45 cells into a nuc-sized starter/finisher? I'm wondering how many cells that system can accommodate...

Adam


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: Placement of JZsBZs cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?*

Adam, presently I'm using a version of cell growing nuc that I have been getting my best results with.

I build nuc size boxes out of foil lined 1-1/4" thick foam board. I seal it all together with polyurethane glue (works excellent gluing foam to foam, and wood to foam, as long as it's clamped until set). I glue a piece of the same foam as a permanently sealed bottom (but insert a 1/4" poly tube for drainage), and a 3/4" thick rim of wood on all four top edges, with a frame rest rabbet cut into the wooden end pieces. I use 1/2" square wire mesh as platforms to place pollen sub patties, and when feeding 1:1 syrup I use inverted plastic quart size containers. I cover feed and all with a loose cloth, leaving it open on one end for an entrance, then place another box on top (may even be a wooden nuc box), holding the cloth in place, and pushed back leaving an entrance in the front.

I make these cell building boxes almost as deep as a deep super and wide enough to hold six frames. When I have them set up for cell building, I try to place empty and partially drawn frames in the two outside positions, then sealed/emerging brood for the other two frames. They will accommodate four frames and three narrow cell bars, one between each set of frames (total of 45 cells), or four frames and one double-bar cell frame plus one narrow cell bar (again, total of 45 cells). I find that the bees are much better at keeping these highly insulated boxes, either warm in Winter or cool in Summer, than ordinary wooden boxes.

It goes without saying, that I stuff these with more nurse bees than will fit in the box, and regularly replace the frames, with new empty frames (outside positions) and sealed/emerging brood (inner positions). I also like to relocate the cell builders between batches, as I'm restocking them, to reduce the percentage of field bees. Also, try to have some eggs/young larvae on the emerging brood frame (this can happen when the queen begins laying in the cells that have already emerged on a frame of emerging brood) - helps reduce problems of laying workers.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

*Re: Placement of JZsBZs cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?*

Joseph, I'd love to see recent pictures of the boxes you describe...

Adam


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: Placement of JZsBZs cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?*

I'm getting them ready for another batch of grafts, tonight. I'll take my camera with me and post them here, afterwards.

Here is a set of photo's I took, tonight, just after dark, with flash. It is difficult to see details. I am planning to build another, perhaps tomorrow. When I do I will take photos as I build it. Here are the ones I just took -->


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: Placement of JZsBZs cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?*

When I check on the cell bars, I remove rejected/aborted cell cups, and consolidate them, if possible, on whichever bar seems to be getting the most attention. Keeping the most cells where the bees seem to attend them the best. Also, if there are fewer cells than a full bar, I move them to the center of the bar, away from the outer ends. This seems to garner the most attention to the remaining cells. However, I like to keep cells of the same age, together, so there is less of a chance that one will emerge and destroy the others.

Since I like to include some young brood with frames of emerging brood that I boost them with, I have developed the habit of checking these frames, after four days, shaking them off and then removing any queen cells that may have been built there. I find it a good source of royal jelly I use for priming new grafts.

There is a strong flow on right now (mesquite), so I'm not feeding syrup, just pollen sub patties. I'm using a small white hand towel as a cover, allowing the front three inches to be their entrance. When the flow ends I will change this configuration and use an inverted syrup feeder and cover the top of the cell builder with another empty super, so the syrup feeder is not exposed.

While the flow is on, I frequently need to replace the outer frames with empty foundationless frames, or top bars as the bees quickly build them into combs full or honey, then they start building comb over the cells, which can be annoying.

Another thing that's been happening, is I've been growing nice batches of cells, but many are not emerging, which is probably associated with our recent heat wave (temperatures over 100F almost every day for several weeks now). Higher, more often than usual, even for us.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

*Re: Placement of JZsBZs cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?*

Very interesting Joseph, thank you very much. I look forward to any additional photos and descriptions.

Adam


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

*Re: Placement of JZsBZs cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?*

I have a question, which is related to this topic and hope you experienced guys dont mind share some thoughts. I'm just starting to raise some queens for my own stock initially, and hopefully will be able to produce some for others down the road - but will worry about that if/when it happens. I'm planning on grafting this weekend and pretty much understand, if it's possible w/o having done it before the process. I'm planning on using some 4-frame nucs that I have as starter/finisher boxes and if they are able to succeed and grow enough population to support themselves this year transfer over to a std 10-frame box till next spring. My questions are this - 

at around day 12-13, if i have some good cells to transfer can i just put them into the new 4-frame nucs for them to mate and start laying in? Also, as I'm just starting out - can i just 'squish' them into an existing frame and put them in the nuc - or do I have to 'mount' them some how until they hatch? I use the term 'squish' but obsiviously this would be a really gentle process to get it to 'adhear' enough - but not damage the queen cell.

thanks, and some really interesting processes you guys are doing. I especially like the idea of recycling foam board to create nuc boxes.

mark


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Placement of JZsBZs cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?*

The JZBZ cups and the Jenter, Nicot etc. cups will usually fit getween two frames with the top of the cup hanging on the top bars and the cell between two frames. If you have a wax cell or a cell cut out of wax comb, you can make a slight indentation with your thumb in the comb and set the cell back in that indentation and put the frames together to keep them from falling out. Just make sure you do things in a way that doesn't squish the cell.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Placement of JZsBZs cell cups - How many? What spacing? What position?*



Michael Bush said:


> The JZBZ cups and the Jenter, Nicot etc. cups will usually fit getween two frames with the top of the cup hanging on the top bars and the cell between two frames.


This works great almost all the time. If, however, your nuc populations are a bit low and chilly nightime temps are forecast then it is prudent to place the cell directly on a brood comb as I have had them get chilled if the bees tightly cluster overnight. If forced to choose, bees will always protect brood before cells. If you use 10 combs I would recommend pulling out two frames of brood and sticking the cell between them directly on the brood and then carefully replacing the frames as a pair.


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