# The best way of requeening with your own raised queens is?



## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Let me say that I believe that raising queens is not for every one. But I can't seem to get good queens that stay. So I feel it is necessary to raise my own queens. I don't forsee any problem with getting the queen cells started, from grafting from my selected genetics. What I need is the simplest way of getting the new queens in my hives. It sounds almost too good to be true that you can place a ripe queen cell in a queenright hive and have her hatch and kill the old queen, then go on her mating flight. What I'm looking for is ways to get them into my hives without setting up mating nucs. Any help appreciated. Also I have a Moonbeam queen from Russell Apiaries to graft from.


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

I have had good luck in making a hive queenless for about 5 days. On the 5th or 6th day I go into the hive and pop all the queen cells and wait a few hours. Then I have pre-made nucs I will remove frames of brood and the queen and place it into the queenless hive. Sooo far I am 100% without any rejects. This is my own personal experiances.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

If you can find the old queen, you can simply kill her or cage her, then come back the next day and add the cell... in a perfect world. Lol. In our mating nucs, we even cage and plant cells as we go without any issues (95% or better). BUT... I know that you had Russians, and that can certainly through a wreck into your plans. Russians are one of the hardest to get to take new queens, haven't finished figuring out exactly why yet (but working on it.;-) ). 

There are a few methods that we found while working AMMs (even harder than Russians) that may interest you. 

1. The "honey super split" method. This is simple and seems to work well, but does require a bit of work that may or may not be needed for a not so tough situation. You simply pull the super that is filled with the most bees, put it on a bottom board facing away from the hive, shake one or two frames of nurse bees onto it to over crowd it, then add your cell in a protector... kill or cage the original queen and leave them in this position over night. The next day, put the super back on the hive. This method is used to make very late splits (thanksgiving last year for example) to provide extra mediums and shallow frames with brood for spring mating nuc set up. Again, it may be a bit more work than is necessary. But you could modify it a bit to make quick mating nucs... just move a few empty frames to the center and add nurse bees every few days as needed.

2. Many commercial operations just plant a cell in the honey super (again where lots of bees are in the evening), and let the virgin take over... almost always, the virgin will win.

3. You can kill or cage the queen, wait 6 or seven days, then cut out any cells, wait one more day, and plant your cell.

4. Plant a cell, check a few days later, and plant another cell if the first appears to have been chewed before hatching.

5. Kill or cage the queen, wait 24hrs then shake a frame of nurses from the cell finisher into the hive when you plant the cell.

6. You could hatch the virgins in a cell hatchery frame, then cage them and plant the cage a day after killing or caging the original queen... just like you would do for a purchased queen, but leave the corks in until they accept her, then release her onto the frames. 

Hope this helps.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

what are your thoughts on putting the cell in the honey supers rrussell? 
Nick


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

swarm_trapper said:


> what are your thoughts on putting the cell in the honey supers rrussell?
> Nick


 Can't answer for the expert, and can't answer from experience. However common sense and some knowledge tells me that there must be large numbers of nurse bees present where ever you put a cell.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I haven't the time to find all those queens. If I want to requeen a hive I just put the cell in two days before emergence.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Where is the optimum place to put the cell? I would think in an area of older brood. But thinking don't always get it done.


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## toad (Jun 18, 2009)

Valleyman,
Why don't you want to make mating nucs?


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Michael and/or R.Russel

If the reigning queen finds the cell before emergence, isn't the gig up? 

Also, usually by the time I get around to requeening, I find a few colonies with laying workers or drone laying queens. Is it safer to use a mated queen in a push cage; frame of larvae plus mated queen; frame of brood first followed by a mated queen; perhaps a frame of larvae and a queen cell; or what? My understanding is that a frame of brood suppresses the workers from laying.

If you add an already mated queen in a push cage with a candy release, so she can lay for a couple of days, will she be accepted as well as a queen cell?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Valleyman, I like to plant cells along the top edge of open brood. Lots of nurses there. But for requeening purposes, the cell needs to be as far away from the queen as possible... somewhere that she shouldn't be, or wouldn't look. That why some commercial operations use the supers to plant there cells in. It's always best to find the old queen and follow due diligence practices, if you have the time to do so.

HVH, yes, if the old queen finds the cell, 9 times out of ten, it will be destroyed... that said, there is always the chance that she will not find it... but if you are trying to be sure of the outcome, again finding the queen and removing or killing her is your best option. When the cell is planted in the super, it is rarely found by the old queen, so the agile virgin has the upper hand. Planting a caged queen in a queen right hive is never a good idea. The old queen can more easily locate the cage than a cell, and even if the new queen is released before the old queen locates her, two mated queens fighting is not good. In many cases the victor will still be damaged in the battle and will be superseded soon after.

The frame of brood for the laying worker hive doesn't actually suppress the laying workers, but instead gives the colony something to work with that they know is of better quality than the laying workers eggs... thus allowing the colony to create a real queen.

Cells are usually accepted more readily than queens, however, a queen that has been allowed to safely lay eggs around her for a few days will be raised in value by the bees. Just keep in mind that those eggs will need nurses after three days, so the push cage can't stay for too long.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks for the info.
It is difficult for me to understand why a virgin has a better chance than a newly mated queen in a fist fight with the reigning queen. You said that a virgin is more "agile". Is there more that you can add to this concept? I wonder if the workers play a role in the outcome more in the case with a mated queen than a virgin.
"Laying workers develop in the absence of open brood as produced by a proper queen. Pheromones from the brood prevent the developing of the workers' ovaries. The pheromones that prevent development of laying workers are brood recognition pheromones. In some cases, a failing queen is not superseded, and a laying worker can develop in the presence of a true queen. The process of developing a laying worker usually takes weeks after the loss of the original queen."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laying_worker_bee

Since a patch of drone brood doesn't seem to stop laying workers from laying, I would assume that only worker brood secretes said pheromones.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

toad said:


> Valleyman,
> Why don't you want to make mating nucs?


I don't have the resources in my small apiary. Plus to me it eliminates several steps. I am only going to requeen my apiary, not sell queens. If I were going to sell queens then mating nucs would be the way to go. You will be without a laying queen for a few days, but my hives should be very strong around the middle of July when I plan to do this. In my opinion this is acceptable for my needs, instead of having to catch, cage, and introduce the newly mated queen.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Virgins have the advantage over mated/laying queens in queen fights -- virgins aren't full of eggs, this alone makes them much more agile, fast, and maneuverable.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

In my experience laying workers can be present in hives no matter how much brood pheromone is present, they are usually not even noticed due to the small number and hygienic behavior that causes the house bees to clear away their eggs. It also take much less time for laying workers to develop in hives that are void of the brood pheromone than the Wikipedia writer quoted. The brood pheromone is not so much the suppressing factor as it is a factor of controlling the roles that the population will need to undertake. The more brood pheromone that is present, the higher the number of the population that will be needed to care for brood. Thus the lower number of workers that develop their ovaries. There are some simple experiments that one can do to learn more about the way that workers will adjust their roles as the needs of the colony changes. 

Valleyman, how is that moonbeam working out for you? Is that what you are wanting to requeen with? If so, I can send you some more daughters from different lineages...

Joe, exactly. I have witnessed the fighting, and can say that it is very one-sided. Lol. It's very rare that a mated queen can win a match against a virgin, and in some cases, I have even seen the mated queen simply surrender and work along side the virgin until the virgin is laying... the bees start feeding the old queen much less and eventually, nothing at all until she dies of starvation. Brutal survival instincts... bit very functional for the benefit of the colony.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

OK - then what about the following strategy. Every year we will have a small percentage of colonies with a failing queen or laying workers. Michael Bush suggested adding a frame of opened brood every week for three weeks or less (if satisfied with the results). I usually take frames of brood to make up finishing colonies anyway, so how about just taking a lot of extra frames of open brood without bees and placing above a strong colony with an excluder. The younger bees will go above the excluder and populate the frames of open brood which can be used to introduce into laying worker colonies (don't need to worry about any queens). Some of the really strong colonies that may have otherwise swarmed can be the nurse bee donors while frames of open brood can be takes from medium strength colonies without much interference.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If you think about it it makes sense that a newly emerged virgin is a queen killing machine- the survival of the hive depends on it under natural conditions. Any genetic lines that produced laying queens that could kill the virgins would fail to supercede, and would only be able to produce a new emergency queen after the killer queen was dead - likely being at a time of year when mating isn't possible. Killer virgins are a survival adaptation.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you want another queen you need only put an excluder between two brood boxes. The queenless portion will raise a queen almost every time.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

David -> That is logical.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Michael Bush said:


> If you want another queen you need only put an excluder between two brood boxes. The queenless portion will raise a queen almost every time.


I have done that many times and it usually works. The downside is the month wait for emerging bees. 

Also, Michael - can you respond to my "strategy" post above? I would be interested to see if you can find any flaws.


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

HVH said:


> Also, usually by the time I get around to requeening, I find a few colonies with laying workers or drone laying queens.


Does the existence of a queen cell alone stop the possibility of a laying worker hive? I've been moving swarm cells to nucs with bees and so far have not seen a large number of new eggs before the new queen takes over.

Edit: Well, think I just found the answer to my question in another thread. Think the answer is no. Open brood is needed to block laying worker instinct. Let me know if I've got that wrong please.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

A queen cell in my experience does not stop drone layers and they seem generally hostile to any method of queen introduction including Q cells. Combining with a strong colony, or adding brood has worked for me but I have not had success with queen introductions. I have some push cages I am trying which have a better chance of working - we'll see.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>can you respond to my "strategy" post above?

Sure.

>how about just taking a lot of extra frames of open brood without bees and placing above a strong colony with an excluder.

But you can accomplish the same thing without going through the hive by just putting an excluder between the two brood boxes.

> The younger bees will go above the excluder and populate the frames of open brood which can be used to introduce into laying worker colonies (don't need to worry about any queens). 

Only if you already know she is below which requires finding her, but then I guess you're figuring you shook her off already, which would work. But if you just put the excluder in, you can come back in four days and look for either eggs or queen cells (eggs indicate the queen and queen cells indicate she's not there) and you don't have to shake any bees off.

>Some of the really strong colonies that may have otherwise swarmed can be the nurse bee donors while frames of open brood can be takes from medium strength colonies without much interference. 

Yes, this can work and has been advocated by Michael Palmer (and probably others) as a way to get nurse bees without a queen.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Michael - You must be kidding. You mean actually plan four days in advance. LOL
I guess adding some excluders a few days before doing the annual inspections would make sense. Probably using the stronger colonies that are more likely to build up to swarm strength would make good donors.


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