# Is this EFB?



## BeeRanger (May 21, 2015)

I checked one of my hives today and I found this.




















I looked up the signs of EFB, and this fits it perfectly. If it is EFB, what do I do? Destroy the hive, or do I replace the queen? If I had to replace the queen that would suck since she just starting laying.

Thank you for any input.

Edit: Also, if this is EFB, can I use the same equipment that I use to check this hive, to check others? The equipment would include : bee brush, hive tool, bee suit, and disposable gloves (I threw those away, already).


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

Call the inspector Keith Tignor for confirmation. EFB is treatable. Can't see from the pictures, EFB kills the larvae before they are capped, turn tan brown color. If the remains in the cell are chewed white pupae that have been uncapped it could be mite infested brood being removed. On my tablet I can't tell from the pics.


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## Agis Apiaries (Jul 22, 2014)

It does look a little like it, but would need a lab test to verify. Does it have a lite odor, kinda like dirty socks?

Like JD says above, EFB is treatable. There are medications you can treat with. Caging the queen inside of the hive can also create a brood break during which time the workers can get the cells cleaned out. Cut out any queen cells that pop up as she would be caged for a while, if you go that route.

Here is some more reading on it with good pics: European Foulbrood Identification

If you have an inspector, have him/her look at it as well.

I would not use the same tools in other hives as it is contagious.


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## BeeRanger (May 21, 2015)

These larvae have turn the brownish color as described in EFB, and it does does have the spotted brood pattern also described in EFB.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

It does look like it may be the early stages of an EFB infection, but the dark markings on the closeup of the larvae also make me suspect PMS too. Do you have any pics of a younger frame of brood with open larvae? Either one is treatable.

Better safe than sorry at this point, clean your equipment to avoid possible cross contamination when working between hives. As stated ask your inspection for confirmation or submit a sample to Beltsville.


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## johnmcda (Aug 10, 2015)

Mann Lake has a test kit:

http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/product/DC-117.html


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Take a picture of open larva, that will help too. The infected ones will be yellowish in color.


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## BeeRanger (May 21, 2015)

Heys guys.

I looked at some of the symptoms for PMS, and they fit more so with the symptoms that my hive is experiencing, than EFB. I need to do further testing, as JSL recommended to. But PMS probably makes more sense since I have not treated this hive other than a putting powdered sugar through the frames last fall. Like I said, I need to actually test it before I do know that it's PMS. But if it is PMS, what do I do?


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

I had that trouble last year, treated with terrimiacyn (before I found out the test results) and fed 1/1 syrup, and the symptoms cleared up. I'm not saying this is the right thing to do but it worked for me.
If you didn't treat for mites over the winter, I would think that you need to test for your mite load to find out where your at. Then treat, the treatment choice is dependent of the mite population. 
The above is my plan this year as I was using brood breaks for mite control and I'm finding out it's not enough.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

There are some similarities, It's not a bad case (yet) looks like it just started if it's EFB. There is not much open brood to look at, the ones there just don't look snotty or stretched that you see with EFB. 

Where did you get your bees? If it's a 5 week old package I would say EFB, if it's a split I would say chilled brood? Could also bee PMS.

You need to send samples for testing to be sure, the test sticks are unreliable don't waist you money. 

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=7472

Do you have any other hive? Are they showing any of the same symptoms. "EFB loves company". If none of your other hives show any symptoms then I would suspect something else (unless it's a package).

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...s-and-PMS-looking-brood&p=1409687#post1409687

Let me know If you have any questions after reading the link in the above post.


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## BeeRanger (May 21, 2015)

FlowerPlanter said:


> There are some similarities, It's not a bad case (yet) looks like it just started if it's EFB. There is not much open brood to look at, the ones there just don't look snotty or stretched that you see with EFB.
> 
> Where did you get your bees? If it's a 5 week old package I would say EFB, if it's a split I would say chilled brood? Could also be PMS.


This is a hive that survived the winter and recently raised a new queen. I have not treated them, like I said before, so that makes me wonder if it isn't PMS. I'm one of those people who are paranoid about putting chemicals in my hive.




FlowerPlanter said:


> Do you have any other hive? Are they showing any of the same symptoms. "EFB loves company". If none of your other hives show any symptoms then I would suspect something else (unless it's a package).


As far as I know, no other hives show these symptoms, although one hive is having problems with brood production, but the queen is laying more than 1 egg per cell, but that's for another time.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

If I were betting, I'd bet it's mites. But you can send a sample to Beltsville and know for sure. In the meantime consider a mite treatment, particularly if they're in the process of getting a new queen laying. Should be able to OAV them while pretty much broodless.


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## BeeRanger (May 21, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> If I were betting, I'd bet it's mites. But you can send a sample to Beltsville and know for sure. In the meantime consider a mite treatment, particularly if they're in the process of getting a new queen laying. Should be able to OAV them while pretty much broodless.


Are there any ways I can treat this hive naturally? In other words; can sugar dusting these bee be sufficient for this amount of mite infestation? Or do I need to use chemicals for this amount of mite concentration?


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

the natural treatments won't do anything for a hive with those symptoms. if you use on of the softer chemical treatments you will want to do an ether before and after to know that it worked. i can understand wanting to keep it natural, but sick bees being overwhelmed by parasites is as bad as some of the treatments.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

I do not mean to hijack some one else's thread, but how does one properly clean equipment after have been in an infected hive?
I have a hive with lots of dead outside. Called state bee guy whom gave conflicted advice via my wife (who was home, I was not).

< essentially he said clean stinky dead bees out of the bottom of the hive & do nothing else until results come back from lab. 
probably six weeks.
suggested a brood break, or requeening, but not splits. letting them make their own queen is OK ( how is this different from a split?)
Wife getting defensive over the phone.  )
So, worst case, I will either destroy this hive, or wait 6 weeks for the lab stuff to come back, & watch the hive die by itself.

What I need to know, assuming worst case, I quarantine my hive brush & one hive tool for this hive , how do I clean everything else? can I clean the brush?(how?)
Thanks ... CE


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## pgayle (Jan 27, 2008)

The reason for killing the queen, or caging her, is you have no brood to harbor the mites or disease. A split helps the colony making the queen, but the queenright half doesn't get a brood break and the problem is perpetuated.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

It does depend on what you are cleaning for. 

Take pictures of your open and capped brood and post here, I am positive you will get a better diagnosis? 

Did he suspect AFB or EFB?

>he said clean stinky dead bees out of the bottom of the hive 
>suggested a brood break, or requeening, but not splits. letting them make their own queen is OK

A bee population should clean up the dead, until they dwindle, then requeening may be too late. Requeening is not recommended AFB. Mixed result with requeening for EFB. A bunch of dead stinky bees may be something else. 

It seems from the studies I have read mild AFB are treatable with Tylan with no/few reoccurrences (this also depends on your state laws). All other disease are treatable and reuse of equipment.

If you suspect AFB I would clean the dead bees and put in cardboard boxes this will reduce the rot smell, burn just the spoiled stuff, close up the hives (if dead) and wait on results.

For your tools clean and residue then soak in bleach 10% for 15 min.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Thanks for the responses.
I will start another thread to share more on this adventure.
CE


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## BeeRanger (May 21, 2015)

Sorry guys for not responding for a while. I was busy...

Anyhow, I have decided to treat this hive with Terramycin, regardless of what it might have (EFB or PMS). I know very little on the antibiotic and don't have a clue on how to apply it to my hive. I'll do some more research, but I thought I might ask how you guys did it.

Thanks for all of your help in this thread.


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