# Apimaye Thermo Hives



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't see how there is any place in Tennessee that gets cold enough in winter that bee colonies are stressed by cold temperatures. Given adequate honey/sugar stores, clustered bees can can keep themselves warm. And there are enough 'warmer' spells in Tennessee winters that the bees will have fairly regular opportunities for cleansing flights.

A standard hive design should work just fine. Mine don't have any wrap, foam insulation or even inner/outer covers. A migratory cover (essentially a piece of plywood with some glued shims) works fine for me.

.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Recent thread about a similar product here.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?335152-Plastic-Supers-from-Mother-Lode&highlight=snap
There is an old thread about Apimaye Thermo. You can search for it but it didn't generate much interest.
Bill


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## MissMollyTN (Feb 19, 2017)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I don't see how there is any place in Tennessee that gets cold enough in winter that bee colonies are stressed by cold temperatures. Given adequate honey/sugar stores, clustered bees can can keep themselves warm. And there are enough 'warmer' spells in Tennessee winters that the bees will have fairly regular opportunities for cleansing flights.
> 
> A standard hive design should work just fine. Mine have don't have any wrap, foam insulation or even inner/outer covers. A migratory cover (essentially a piece of plywood with some glued shims) works fine for me.


Yes, it's likely overkill for TN, but I think lessening temperature fluctuations will be a good thing for the bees. Plus I liked the concept & design. And the plastic interior is supposed to deter shb's and wax moths.


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## MissMollyTN (Feb 19, 2017)

whiskers said:


> Recent thread about a similar product here.
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?335152-Plastic-Supers-from-Mother-Lode&highlight=snap
> There is an old thread about Apimaye Thermo. You can search for it but it didn't generate much interest.
> Bill


Yes, I saw the mother lode one-Just plastic milk crate material (from what I saw in the video). The earlier Apimaye thread was from 4 yrs ago. I don't think there was a US vendor then -until last summer. They've sold over 200, so apparently someone's buying them. Guess they're not around here, though.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

The apparent problem with insulated hives in the south is moisture retention. a colony of bees give off a lot of water so keep tabs on that. several years ago the beemax hives were soundly cursed for that. I wish I had some of them myself. would be easier than wrapping. another caution is bees tend to raise a lot more brood because they can keep it warm. this causes varroa mite numbers to rise fast.


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## MissMollyTN (Feb 19, 2017)

Vance G said:


> The apparent problem with insulated hives in the south is moisture retention. a colony of bees give off a lot of water so keep tabs on that. several years ago the beemax hives were soundly cursed for that. I wish I had some of them myself. would be easier than wrapping. another caution is bees tend to raise a lot more brood because they can keep it warm. this causes varroa mite numbers to rise fast.


These have a ventilation system that specifically addresses the moisture problem. The varroa/warmth issue is something I haven't heard before-I'll have to keep an eye on that. Maybe by adding a frame for drone cells?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

A guy here is a small commercial beekeeper with around 800 hives that are standard wood design, but I went to his place last week and saw a bunch of these things on the lawn outside his house. Turns out he uses them for queen mating nucs and raises around 2,000 queens per year which he sells as an adjunct to his honey business.

Very surprised because beekeepers here don't normally go for this sort of thing but he thinks they are great. And that is despite the massive price tag.

We talked about it a bit and he said they are good for nucs but he wouldn't use for honey production hives because they would not stand up to the rigors of heavy weights of honey and getting thrown around in a commercial environment. Probably fine for a hobbyist though.

He is origionally from Belgium where these things are used so he's probably more open to it than most of my countrymen would be.

I followed your link to their web site, it's good but I suspect some of the claims on the front page are overstated.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Insulated hive may have some utility in the extreme northerly climes, but completely unnecessary in TN. However, since you already got them, please let us know how they work out for you.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Weather ,cold doesn't kill bees , varroa , starvation , kills bees.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

It's not the cold weather itself that kills the bees, it's that nothing blooms when it's cold weather so they are more prone to starvation and aren't making brood to replace dead bees. 

My first year of beekeeping, I sat a complete hive that with laying workers in an empty chest type deep freeze at 0 degrees for a week to kill the remaining 1000 bees and the laying workers. A week later, I took the hive out to reuse and when I got ready to dump out the dead bees, they were all tightly clustered on the center comb and very much alive. I don't think one bee had died while in the freezer.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Dan the bee guy said:


> Weather ,cold doesn't kill bees , varroa , starvation , kills bees.


I'm gonna have to disagree with that statement.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The USDA has done studies with "refrigerated" hives over an extended period. I have linked this study in an earlier thread, but here it is again:
http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/CAT72345678/PDF

The section that discusses hives in the 'freezer' starts on page 22. I suggest reading that section for yourself, but my summary is that even though they held hives continuously at* -40 F for a month*, the bees were still alive, although nosema was noticeably present.

I'd say that is not the "cold" killing the bees, but certainly extreme cold can weaken a hive and contribute to other health issues cropping up. Clearly, at that temperature, the bees are not going to be flying, and therefore have no opportunity for cleansing flights.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

MissMollyTN,

Welcome to beekeeping! 

You can easily, and at a fairly low cost, accomplish what you want using foam insulation pieces strapped around to the hives, which is what I do. In TN it probably isn't necessary, but you can decide about that next fall. I use 3" of foam insulation up here in northern NY which is probably overkill for my area, but it has worked well for me.

Enjambres


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

i always suggest that new beekeepers stick with standard time proven equipment and methods... in a couple of years as you gain some experience, then you may wish to experiment.


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## MissMollyTN (Feb 19, 2017)

Yes, the only real difference will be the outer boxes I'm using. I'm using standard wood frames, and the nice thing w/these is any standard wood supers I add later will fit. 
I think that less temperature fluctuations (during winter- "warm spells") may be a good thing. I've read that somewhere; don't remember where, exactly.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

temperature swings ie. temporary warm-ups allow the bee cluster in the box to move, allowing movement toward food. hollow trees [ plain wood tubes] worked for bees in europe for an endless amount of winters.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The section that discusses hives in the 'freezer' starts on page 22. I suggest reading that section for yourself, but my summary is that even though they held hives continuously at* -40 F for a month*, the bees were still alive, although nosema was noticeably present.


This is a great confirmation that one of the primary factors for winter survival is that the bees go into winter healthy. The less pathogens to be able to multiply in a cramped winter cluster that cannot leave the hive, the better shape the bees will be in the following spring.

I did say that some of the claims of that web page were overstated. One of the ones I baulked at was these hives will get the bees through with no winter losses quote - "offering a suitable habitat for the colony in different climate*conditions and consequently enabling wintering without losses". In fact other factors than wood or foam hive body are more determinant of winter losses.

But anyway, Miss Molly already has her Apimaye boxes so that's a done deal, I think she will enjoy using them, she'll get wood boxes also so will be in a position to compare.

I'm not sure about the little notches that control frame placement. But for a new beekeeper this may work well.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> I'm gonna have to disagree with that statement.


I am going to have to disagree with you. The only time I see bees killed by cold is when a cold hard wind blowing from the wrong direction comes in the hive when the bees have broken cluster in the winter in a warm day. The bees seem to be slow getting clustered. But clustered bees in contact with stores do not freeze to death.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Assuming they are not african or something.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Vance G said:


> The only time I see bees killed by cold is when a cold hard wind blowing from the wrong direction comes in the hive when the bees have broken cluster in the winter in a warm day.


Especially when the bad beekeeper hasn't insulated yet, the temp suddenly drops to -20 (from about +50), the wind is blowing at 60mph AND the dummy forgot to put in an entrance reducer. Dead.

When the bad beekeeper opens them up at 0* with a high wind, they will survive if the exposure is kept to less than 15 seconds. If the exposure is a minute or so, they are dead. Experience.


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

The design is interesting. I like the latches to hold the top on and boxes together. It seems like it could work good. Not necessary of course but might be fun to try. Side by side comparisons in a cold climate would be really interesting.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Vance G said:


> I am going to have to disagree with you. The only time I see bees killed by cold is when a cold hard wind blowing from the wrong direction comes in the hive when the bees have broken cluster in the winter in a warm day. The bees seem to be slow getting clustered. But clustered bees in contact with stores do not freeze to death.


Well Vance, if you think about it those honey frames get cold in the hives in the winter, especially the outer ones; the empty comb especially empty on both sides, helps the bees stay warmer with that. Most people think that a dead hive with the bees headfirst in the comb indicates starvation. It doesn't necessarily mean that. I think insulated hives work well even year round. I think those hives sound like a good idea.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I like the insulated boxes and would have the ones made near Calgary if the price was right. I just know that my wrapped wooden boxes with a 1" round winter entrance does not allow bees with honey to freeze to death. Hives with a gaping maw at the bottom and various and sundry holes at the top are vulnerable to a cold wind from the front coming on after a warm day when the bees break cluster. I see temperature swing 80 degrees in a day so often it is not remarkable and bees indeed do freeze if the mad ventilators are keeping the bees. They do not get a cluster reformed in time or occasionaly end up in several scattered clusters that are not viable.


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## MissMollyTN (Feb 19, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> This is a great confirmation that one of the primary factors for winter survival is that the bees go into winter healthy. The less pathogens to be able to multiply in a cramped winter cluster that cannot leave the hive, the better shape the bees will be in the following spring.
> 
> I did say that some of the claims of that web page were overstated. One of the ones I baulked at was these hives will get the bees through with no winter losses quote - "offering a suitable habitat for the colony in different climate*conditions and consequently enabling wintering without losses". In fact other factors than wood or foam hive body are more determinant of winter losses.
> But anyway, Miss Molly already has her Apimaye boxes so that's a done deal, I think she will enjoy using them, she'll get wood boxes also so will be in a position to compare.
> ...


Yes, I agree-the "suitable habitat...enabling wintering without losses" part is a pretty broad claim. 
By "notches" you mean in the close-up pic showing the corner w/frames inserted? Thankfully, the model they're selling doesn't have those- it's just open inside. Ten Mann Lake wood frames fit perfectly, with very little shifting needed to be evenly spaced. 
I showed the hives to my mentor today- he's been beekeeping 30+ years. He thought they looked pretty good. He liked the r-value (6.93) -will be easier for the bees to regulate hive temperature in hot weather.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes those are the notches I meant, good you have got gear without them it will open up more options to you as you grow in knowledge and try different things, spreading frames wider in honey boxes for example.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Vance G said:


> I like the insulated boxes and would have the ones made near Calgary if the price was right. I just know that my wrapped wooden boxes with a 1" round winter entrance does not allow bees with honey to freeze to death. Hives with a gaping maw at the bottom and various and sundry holes at the top are vulnerable to a cold wind from the front coming on after a warm day when the bees break cluster. I see temperature swing 80 degrees in a day so often it is not remarkable and bees indeed do freeze if the mad ventilators are keeping the bees. They do not get a cluster reformed in time or occasionaly end up in several scattered clusters that are not viable.


I like the "mad ventilators" comment  I do agree with you for your area of Montana. Jerry Bromenshenk talked of that kind of weather too. It really confirms that, and I'm going to say it again even though everybody knows it, beekeeping is local. I downloaded a research paper that a couple in the UK did on these types of hives. I shared it with bee-l a year or two ago, and most didn't agree with it but some did. If you are interested in it I could email it to you. Just PM me. As for frozen bees I really don't think they can freeze except for the "mad ventilator" people like you mentioned. BUT think feral bees in those thick insulated trees all year round.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ha, we now have a new group of people to blame everything on. "Mad ventilators" . I actually know some myself, no wonder their hives are behind mine .


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Ha, we now have a new group of people to blame everything on. "Mad ventilators" . I actually know some myself, no wonder their hives are behind mine .


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## MissMollyTN (Feb 19, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> Yes those are the notches I meant, good you have got gear without them it will open up more options to you as you grow in knowledge and try different things, spreading frames wider in honey boxes for example.


Yes, for the supers I'll be moving from 10 to 9 (once they're drawn out).


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## cfalls (Nov 26, 2017)

I have three Apimaye hives now so I thought I'd chime in even though I'm a newbie.

I have no evidence that there are any advantages to the bees from the insulation or ventilation or anything else. Maybe there are, maybe there aren't. (I'm in upstate NY, where we have real seasons, but nothing too crazy.)

However, I can say that there are a lot of convenient features for the beekeeper. The mouse guard is always on, so you can't lose it. You can easily adjust their entrances -- the main bottom one, and the circular ones on the supers -- depending on weather or the strength of the colony, to prevent robbing, or whatever. You can close it up completely for transport. You can switch between screen or solid bottom easily. You can latch the top down so you don't need a rock. The included top feeder is good at preventing drowning. And I've had no troubles mixing the equipment with standard Langstroth equipment. There's even an included divider if you want two nucleus colonies to share one deep box, which I've done without issue. I've even put two standard wooden 4-frame boxes on top of a divided Apimaye deep to make it into a Palmer-style resource hive, without issue.

So, is it worth the money? I have no idea. But I will say it's well made and comes with a ton of stuff you'd normally buy separately, that's actually useful. (The only thing I'll probably never use is the pollen trap.)

I do have one complaint. The bottom part is sort of a short stand and screened/solid bottom board combined, which is cool, except that you can't easily separate it from the bottom brood box. So you can't just tip up the bottom box to inspect the bottom of the frames. Instead you have to pull the frames out to check for swarm cells. And this also means that you can't easily swap the bottom two brood chambers, as some do to discourage swarming. This is fixed in their "defender" series, where the bottom part latches onto the bottom brood box, but only the cheaper "ergo" series is available in the US, and it has the bottom brood box screwed onto the bottom part.

Despite that minor complaint, I plan to stick with Apimaye hives for the foreseeable future.

Oh, and a minor thing I forgot to mention is that the US retailer is nice to work with. One of my shipments was slightly delayed so they called me up to ask what kind of free stuff I'd like in compensation, even though I really didn't mind the delay.


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## Veraizz (Jan 27, 2018)

I've bought apimaye this year... Let's see how bees like this winter)
I recommend you one of two - Ergo or Nuc, other designs are not have proved to be ineffective. Here is useful comparison https://makinghoney.info/apimaye-thermo-hive-review/. And here is official US website - https://apimaye-usa.com/, but if you looking for illustrative and detailed information - better to visit their official turkish website, but choose EN language - here you are http://www.apimaye.com.tr/index_en.html


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I don't see how there is any place in Tennessee that gets cold enough in winter that bee colonies are stressed by cold temperatures. Given adequate honey/sugar stores, clustered bees can can keep themselves warm. And there are enough 'warmer' spells in Tennessee winters that the bees will have fairly regular opportunities for cleansing flights.
> 
> A standard hive design should work just fine. Mine don't have any wrap, foam insulation or even inner/outer covers. A migratory cover (essentially a piece of plywood with some glued shims) works fine for me.
> 
> .


On the contrary Rader I will have to respectfully disagree,

Yes the temperatures in TN are mild compared to more northern latitudes. There in lies the problem. In more northern latitudes, the Winter temperatures typically dip to well below freezing and remain there. This causes the cluster to establish and remain established inside the hive in a much more non-active state and thus using far less hive store food resources. In TN, and similar latitudes especially in West & Middle TN, the temperatures fluctuate between well below freezing to balmy mid 60 and sometimes 70 degree temperatures causing the bees to break cluster, conduct purging flights and forage for food resources which ultimately leads to the hive consuming significantly more stored food resources inside the hive. If the beekeeper does not carefully monitor the food resources, it is not unusual to find hives that have succumbed to starvation. In your part of far East TN that is at a significantly higher elevation near the Smoky Mountain range, I would expect you see much colder temperatures than those of us in West & Middle TN do and the cold temperatures are probably more stable and don't fluctuate as much. 

I have found out in my studies at the "University of Hard Knocks" that insulating my hives as much as I possible can achieves a number of things that mitigate Winter stresses on my hives. I have been able to demonstrate this to myself and others using the Broodminder kits I have installed on 3 of my hives that have a hive weight scale/temperature sensor, lower brood box temperature/humidity sensor, and an upper brood box temperature/humidity sensor. 

1. I found that insulating the hives well reduced and nearly eliminated the temperature fluctuations and swings inside the hive and near/inside the cluster.

2. Hives that are not constantly struggling to maintain a consistent hive/cluster temperature apparently are not consuming as much food resources. 

3. When ambient temperatures reach up into the 50 degree and above range, the bees ARE going to come out of the hives, purge themselves, and forage for pollen and nectar/sugar resources regardless unless the hive is seriously ill. 

4. Well insulated hives in my latitude that are provided pollen substitute and nectar/sugar resources will maintain a very small but active brood nest in the core of the cluster. 

5. Well insulated hives are usually the first hives to become active on warmer days and remain actively foraging longer than hives with no insulation. 

6. I have found that heavily insulating above the inner cover, including insulating the 1 gallon feeder buckets on my 8 & 10 frame hives and half gallon feeder jars on my nucs in conjunction with feeding a much heavier sugar syrup that is significantly more viscous in cool/colder temperatures allows me to feed sugar syrup much longer into the Fall and Early Winter with pretty low risk of syrup dripping down onto the cluster. 

7. Lastly, I have found that well insulated hives can more safely begin brooding up earlier in early Spring with much less risk of freezing to death during unexpected hard freezes in February - April. 

The above is NOT to say that it is a must and essential to insulate hives in TN, I am just stating that insulating the hives goes a LONG ways towards helping to reduce Winter colony losses especially with weak or hives struggling against illness/various diseases.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Vance G said:


> The apparent problem with insulated hives in the south is moisture retention. a colony of bees give off a lot of water so keep tabs on that. several years ago the beemax hives were soundly cursed for that. I wish I had some of them myself. would be easier than wrapping. another caution is bees tend to raise a lot more brood because they can keep it warm. this causes varroa mite numbers to rise fast.


I install an Imirie Shim under the Mann Lake Wintering Inner Cover facing up to provde adequate ventilation and an upper entrance.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The USDA has done studies with "refrigerated" hives over an extended period. I have linked this study in an earlier thread, but here it is again:
> http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/CAT72345678/PDF
> 
> The section that discusses hives in the 'freezer' starts on page 22. I suggest reading that section for yourself, but my summary is that even though they held hives continuously at* -40 F for a month*, the bees were still alive, although nosema was noticeably present.
> ...


Thanks for posting! A VERY interesting read! :thumbsup:


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## cfalls (Nov 26, 2017)

Just an update on my experience with the Ergo hives.

All three colonies seem to have overwintered successfully. I don't have any non-Apimaye hives as a control group so that's pretty much meaningless.

Anecdotally, ventilation has seemed adequate. Moisture accumulates on the pull-out tray below the screened bottom, and a smaller amount under the top cover above the feeder / inner cover. I have not noticed any moisture under the inner cover where it would drip on the bees.

Also anecdotally, the bees are able to take syrup (I use Prosweet which is about 3:1) when outside temperatures rise above freezing or so, depending on the strength of the colony. Maybe this is a little colder than "normal"? The thermometer I have submerged in the syrup usually reads about 30 degrees warmer than outside temperatures. On the negative side, the feeder only holds two or three quarts, I think, as opposed to the two gallons of some competing models.

No parts have broken, despite being numerous and plastic.

I continue to be annoyed that the built-in stand is screwed onto the bottom brood box instead of latching the way the supers latch onto each other. And I continue to doubt some of the company's claims about screened bottoms helping with varroa (other than for monitoring) and insulation helping much with winter losses (other than for very weak colonies in very cold climates). *Nevertheless, I continue to like them and have bought another for increase.*

By the way, they've updated their product to make it more usable in something like a "resource hive" or "Palmer nuc" setup. Essentially, all the boxes can be divided down the middle, and there are two half-feeders on top instead of one full sized feeder. They don't have 4-frame boxes like you'd normally use, but their setup seems adequate. I'm going to try it out.


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## ny12569 (Jan 25, 2019)

Since you already have themI was wondering if you think the area to top feed is big enough to put a candy cake in for overwintering.I am in ny so I am interested your opinion


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## cfalls (Nov 26, 2017)

I don't know, how thick is the candy cake? The top feeder is a few inches tall. You can get probably 4 standard winter patties in there, two stacks of two each.

I've only used dry sugar (with the feeder in "kek" mode, which I guess is Turkish for "cake") and sugar syrup (with the feeder in "syrup" mode, which I guess is Turkish for "syrup"). For pollen patties and winter patties I just put them between the brood boxes.

Actually, one time I did put pollen patties in the top feeder but that was a mistake. The bees didn't police at as well to prevent small hive beetles. They defend the pollen patties better, and take them faster, when they're near the brood.


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## Edgewater (Mar 22, 2018)

I'm a rookie beek but decided to standardize on the 7 frame Apimaye Nuc hive. I know 7 frames is non-std but is slightly more laying space than a 10 frame medium. I love that it improves the center of gravity when lifting. I was able to make a perfect fit OAV pan to use under the hive from a cheap Walmart std 13" x 9" cake pan, so that I haven't had to worry about melting the plastic screen bottom when vaporizing. Am still thawing out from winter so haven't been into the hives yet to see what's going on inside, but both my hives are alive and thriving. Neither hive ate much of the sugar candy, so I'd like to think that the honey reserves coupled with the insulated boxes kept them fed and comfy. Love the feeders and the latching system!

I agree with cfalls that the latch configuration would be ideal on the bottom board as well. 

The biggest negative is the initial cost, but I think if you add up feeders, insulation, strapping, screened and solid bottom boards, dividers for making nucs, etc, it's a close comparison, and you don't have a bunch of makeshift stuff to make and winterizing to deal with. I just purchased some nice 7 frame waxed supers from Ohio Bee Box Company, and Apimaye sells the latches separately now, so I'm going to try out some wooden honey supers this season. I learned on the Apimaye Facebook page that another user had convinced Ohio Bee Box to make the 7 frame box. They fit fine, and the quality is very good - SS screws and wax dipped. 

ny12569, I did make candy cakes using BetterBee website recipe. They were a bit tricky to size correctly with the various cutouts in the feeder, but was able to make it work. In future, will just make the pieces a little smaller and check periodically over the winter. 

I am adding another Apimaye hive this year as well.


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## Gus979 (Oct 11, 2012)

Edgewater said:


> I'm a rookie beek but decided to standardize on the 7 frame Apimaye Nuc hive. I know 7 frames is non-std but is slightly more laying space than a 10 frame medium. I love that it improves the center of gravity when lifting..


I was considering the 7 frame as well but I was worried about dealing with a strong hive in it. Could end up with a tower unless you are extracting more than once in the year.

Also, question.

Will the vented bottom board/ mesh board interfere somewhat with a "palmer style"/overwintering double nuc style increase method? I'm not sure how it would, but in the videos I've seen they are using solid boards when they do the double nuc method.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

I don't like all of the plastic, going to need a HUGE landfill for these things after a few years if they come into general use in any significant number. But that's just my hesitation.


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## cfalls (Nov 26, 2017)

My concern with standardizing on 7-frame boxes would mostly be the difficulty of finding compatible queen excluders, escape boards, shims, Snelgrove boards, etc. etc. If you never want to use that stuff then you're fine, but it wouldn't hurt to have the option. I wouldn't be too worried about the height of the stacks as 7 is 7/8 as big as 8, which is pretty standard.  Just not a big difference.

I don't think the bottom board will cause a problem for "Palmer style" nucs. It's a solid bottom below a screened bottom. The solid tray does have some tiny ventilation holes around the edges but overall I think the insulated walls will more than compensate temperature-wise.

If there's any problem with using these with two queens, I'd say it's the fact that the entrances for the two colonies are fairly close together rather than being on opposite sides, which will likely result in more drifting. The situation is slightly better on the 7-frame Apimaye than on the 10-frame, because of the way the entrance reducers open inward rather than outward. That being said, I didn't have a problem with two queens in my 10-frame.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Well, these Apimaye hive boxes must be really good because the OP hasn't needed to come back to Beesource for any kind of help with her bees . . .


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## cfalls (Nov 26, 2017)

Hah. Mine must've been defective. I'm still in the 101 forum trying to figure out how to stop my colonies from swarming again this year. 😞


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## Gus979 (Oct 11, 2012)

I switched over to a few at the start of last year. I think they are better than the wood ones I had. Not AMAZINGLY better, but better. I'd say they are definitely much quieter in the winter than I remember with overwintering the wood boxes. They are certainly less hassle.

I'd like to gripe a little about how expensive their supers are... geez. I haven't bought them out of stubbornness but without them it seems kind of weird/incomplete with my wood supers going on top for honey.

Pretty expensive, but I think its good for a backyard beekeeper like me when you know you plan on keeping bees into the long future.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Not me as I am anti-ventilation - period - too much plastic too! I helped out with two of them - both were dying but I don't think he treated properly. I noticed all the ventilation efforts in the design. For me that is a warning sign of a problem just like the 3 vent-hole foam nucs.


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## Gus979 (Oct 11, 2012)

Robert Holcombe said:


> Not me as I am anti-ventilation - period - too much plastic too! I helped out with two of them - both were dying but I don't think he treated properly. I noticed all the ventilation efforts in the design. For me that is a warning sign of a problem just like the 3 vent-hole foam nucs.


As in ventilation is bad, or ventilation is bad and you like putting an absorbing thing like a pillow/sugar/wood chips in a empty top section or these new designs with a lot of ventilation holes are indicative of hive will cause excess moisture?

I didn't notice any excess signs of moisture this year, I did add sugar to each hive in one of the half cover/feeder parts so I did have an absorbing medium in their inner cover. 

Don't forget that the bees can access the top cover venting holes and seal them with with propolis if they like- mine did for the most part. I'd like to think they can self regulate the amount of ventilation and unplug the propolis holes as needed but that might be wishful thinking on my part.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

RG - To explain myself in a few words I stopped using the quilt box approach three years ago. I used vent holes over the shavings initially and quickly closed them up. I primarily use a quilt like box to feed syrup. I have progressed to Fall feeding to a weight and no winter feeding. At the same time I evolved my insulation approach so I can have easy access to a hive. Nine hives are two inch XPS insulated on five sides; estimated to be R12 or better with no "air leaks or vents. The bottom exit / vent is outside the insulation boundary - bottom zone is exposed to the cold ambient. BTW, I was astonished by the effects of air leaks through or around the insulation.

I monitor the inside top zone of all hives for temperature and three for humidity. I started weighting in winter but that is a bit tricky ( another story). The only vent is a restricted entrance and a gap between the bottom screen board and the pull out sticky board. 

What I have learned by going in the opposite direction of conventional venting approaches this winter is a "new" condition inside the hives. Far more winter independence of the inner environment from outside effects. My hives are "dry" but the weight can go up at times. The internal temperature and relative humidity is really stable and surpassingly high. But the temperature is alway a few degrees above the dew point. Cold dry days with warm humid conditions inside the hive drives the moisture out - after 5-8 days the hive weight came down. The wood in the hive, boxes, frames and cocoons all buffer or absorb moisture and help to control the internal RH. This is why I worry about all plastic boxes and see extraordinary efforts to vent the Apimaye hives. I think the feral hives in tree are bee selected sites for more than just volume and wind shelter. 

I will continue with single bottom vent hives and sealed insulation right through summer and into winter again this year. I have located two Apimaye hives I will try to test in comparison to my insulated wood approach along with the popular standard wood Langstroth. I need more sensors. 

The bottom line is I see improvements in bee survival, earlier brood rearing - really early this year. The idea that a warmer hive, higher bee acitivty consumes more stores has not been supported by my numbers. The published metabolic curve for bee consumption also does not support that idea - colder internal ambient temperatures, below 40F, increases consumption faster than temperatures above 60F per degree of change in internal ambient. From 40F to 60F the curve is a pretty shallow curve - source of warehousing bee hives at 40 F external ambient? 

Best of luck with your Apimaye hives, I need to buy more sensors with greater accuracy.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Robert Holcombe said:


> RG - To explain myself in a few words I stopped using the quilt box approach three years ago. I used vent holes over the shavings initially and quickly closed them up. I primarily use a quilt like box to feed syrup. I have progressed to Fall feeding to a weight and no winter feeding. At the same time I evolved my insulation approach so I can have easy access to a hive. Nine hives are two inch XPS insulated on five sides; estimated to be R12 or better with no "air leaks or vents. The bottom exit / vent is outside the insulation boundary - bottom zone is exposed to the cold ambient. BTW, I was astonished by the effects of air leaks through or around the insulation.
> 
> I monitor the inside top zone of all hives for temperature and three for humidity. I started weighting in winter but that is a bit tricky ( another story). The only vent is a restricted entrance and a gap between the bottom screen board and the pull out sticky board.
> 
> ...


Hi Robert, I am interested in your approach. When I "vent" hives I see what feels to be cooler and dryer hives. When I do not vent the hives seem very wet in the spring. I realize the bees use some of the moisture to Mix with Honey to thin and also for the water needs of the hive in winter. With your non vented hives how does the water escape? When I used "small" vents they filled with frost and ICE,, plugging them. I am looking for a happy medium and these Apimaye Hives seem to have some venting, But I agree made of plastic they cannot adsorb and release water.
GG


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

GG " When I used "small" vents they filled with frost and ICE,, plugging them. I am looking for a happy medium and these Apimaye Hives seem to have some venting,"

Is is not easy to explain all this temperature, Relative Humidity (RH), dew point stuff. Moisture flows from high temperature, high RH to low temperature, low RH but high RH, warmer air rises to the top of a hive. Do not confuse natural or forced convection with diffusion. There are multiple moisture mechanisms going on simultaneously. Did you know old pupa cocoons abosorb water , pine deep boxes can absorb 10 lb. of water - easily. Bee metabolism or consumption of 40 lb. of honey releases 3.5 gallons of water. When water vapor condenses it releases heat. I am just starting to catch on to this beekeeping thing. My objective is to reduce stress on bees and give them a chance to control their internal hive environment by appropriate hive design. 

There are a lot of issues and variables tied into this issue of humidity and condensation and temperature control ( by the bees). I have taken a contrarian path to understanding the relationship of a hive's impact on the honeybee colony. I am at a new level of learning this year btu have outstripped my meager sensing abilities. I have been in my current configuration for about 3 months. I have gone all in with nine hives adn my improved insulating approach. It is premature to claim a major step up but it sure looks promising. One problem is I have no one to review and discuss physics oriented data, issues and interpretations who is also a beekeeper. But I try  

I cannot provide a specific answer for you the issue of an iced over bottom entrance other than provide an alternate path for the carbon dioxide to flow out. It is heavier than air. I use a screened bottom board with a sticky board below that with a gap and loose fit. There are always extreme events that will defeat design efforts but if the issue is repetitive for your area I can think of two solutions. For deep snow provide a vent from the bottom up or a vent stack. Alternate is shield the bottom to the ground so the bottom board screen can vent down We get ice storms here, really bad ones sometimes. We also have had a lot of rain, fog, cold, warm this winter. My hives are warmer which so far seems to be quite capable of melting ice and snow ( no idea on how thick). My entrance has a 2-inch overhang as well as the bottom board screen. I plan on dealing with this particular issue more as we can get 3 feet of snow in a short period of time - but rare. 

Currently the top of my hives have been steady at 80 - 84F at 65-75% RH which reflects brood rearing cranking up. In Janurary - February, temperatures were lower, 65-75F at 75 - 95% RH. It seems like the bees crank up the internal hive temperature to stay above the dew point in the top cover area. The hives have been dry all winter, no condensation in thetop area, even drier now. the surprise is the slow to nil rate of change in the internal temperatures. Food consumption average was typical for nine hives. Typical based on what I have read being around 40 lb. for 4 months. It is tough to weigh month over month as some hives gain weight, 12 lb. for example. My calculation is based on a Nov. 3 weight to March1 period for big and small colonies with March. Hives are getting to dry now and bees are foraging for water; RH dropping into the 60 -65% range. Brood rearing wants 50-60% in the brood zone but it is at 93-95F and driving moisture out of the cluster to the cooler ambient. Same as driving moisture or water out of the hive - from a warm, humid, interanl ambient hive to a cold dry outside. This is the driest I have seen my hives in what was a very wet winter. 

When I get a clear annual picture of the effects of a 5-sided, no top vent, no joint leakage or closed insulation application. I will explain more as I do not want to mislead or mis-direct other beekeepers. I am going to get more temperature and humidity sensors, soem with greater accuracy. I hope to compare three or four different hive designs in my local area; standard wood box with top vent, wood with an insulated top and top vent, Apimaye type ( and hopefully someone who knows how ot use it) and my year-round wood - XPS approach. 

The key is identifying homeostasis conditions on an annual, cyclical basis. The object of the hive enclosure design is to enable the bees to maintain the conditions they desire. You can monitor this stuff with cheap weather station sensors with a remote receiver ; 3 remotes, one local for $50 but RH accuracy is not great. You can see trouble within a hive with a simple dial thermometer installed on top of he cluster - poke it through a quilt box into the brood chamber. I use a canvass inner cover ans spacer with cotton tee shirts  - bees love it. I can check on them anytime. Best is a cup of coffee in the morning and reading the weather station display for three beehives. 

If you want more info or questions - fire away.


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