# Beginning Treatment Free



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Thank you for posting this Steven.

I myself started treatment freen in 2003 and have remained treatment free ever since. My experience is the same as what you stated. Beginners must pay respect to the potential to lose hives especially from treated sources. I started with 20 3 lb. packages from a commercial package bee company. I expected to lose 90% of them over the course of the first few years. I was fortunate to only lose about 70% to mites. This was a very significant investment for me. You don't have to start with that many, but I recommend not keeping any fewer than four hives. If you only have one hive, and it gets sick or dies, there's nothing you can do but start over. With several, you can use them to support one another in numerous ways. Having several close friends with a hive each can serve the same purpose.

Beginners need to formulate a plan and write it down. Be conservative in your projections, very conservative. You can go cheap on equipment and you won't see the results for years, but going cheap on your bees will bite you in the first or second year. I dare say you won't find a good queen for use in a treatment free hive for less than $25.

Start on 4.9mm foundation or foundationless from the beginning. Read Dee Lusby's entire POV section here on Beesource. Read Michael Bush's entire website. http://bushfarms.com/bees.htm

There are a number of sources of treatment free bees. There is a thread called "Treatment Free Queens" http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251422 which mentions a number of sources. As time goes on, there will be more.

Have patience. If you discovered you want to be a beekeeper this year, perhaps this year is not the best year to become a beekeeper. Keep studying, gain knowledge, gather resources and you will be that much more prepared for next year. Jumping in too quickly can leave you out a couple hundred dollars and very disappionted. We don't want that.

Finally, ask questions. Always ask questions. You can always ignore the answers if you want, but ask anyway. There is a wealth of knowledge freely available here and elsewhere. There's no reason why anyone should be at a loss as to why something is happening.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

I'd like to add something-
Once a new beekeeper has kept bees for a year or so and has one or two wintered over hives and a little experience, it's entirely reasonable to experiment with splitting and/or raising a few of your own nucs or queens. The good thing about that is you can be fairly sure of raising your own bees with minimal treatments and chemicals.

_My first year_ 2009- had a mature hive given to me....it died over the winter, but I got my feet wet and learned a lot. 
_My second year_ 2010- started over with 2 nucs (mostly untreated) and let them grow...over the winter one died and one survived.
_My third year_ 2011- this year- I now have one survivor hive which I plan to split and raise some queen cells and nucs from, plus one more new nuc is coming in the mail from same original source (FatBeeMan) at the end of April. That ordered nuc I will just let grow this year to a full strength 2 deep hive at a friend's house down the road next to his new hive.
_This Fall_- my goal for this Fall is to have two full hives and several nucs to attempt to overwinter. If just two colonies survive next winter, I won't have to order bees in 2012 from outside sources. That is a major goal for me.
I welcome the concept of my new treatment-free queens mating with local 'mutt' drones- I feel then my bees may have even more of a chance to make it through the cold winters here than the treatment-free bees I've bought from outside sources.

One thing I learned while going through all this learning process is this-
There are no two people who raise their bees the exact same way. Just about everyone has more experience than you, and everyone will advise you to do something their particular way. I found it bizarre how some folks would _insist_ to me that my bees were _absolutely going to DIE_ if I didn't do this or do that. (so far only half my bees have died) lol! ...DON'T LET PEOPLE SCARE YOU if you are determined to avoid chemicals. Consider that maybe there are different 'best' methods depending on people's individual circumstances.
I've found it works for me to listen to _everyone_ and thoughtfully consider what they say....and then just go with my own instinct. I know I will fail in some things and succeed in others (just like they probably did), I know I will likely lose some bees and some money at first from the failures...but I learn from both the failures and successes and each year I will likely do better, or at least I'll know more.

One thing i can definitely recommend as many others do- start with more than one hive. But I feel a new beginner should not start with more than 3 hives unless they have experienced mentor help. It's way more time-consuming as a beginner when you don't have your own hive-keeping routine developed yet, so 3 hives is a real handful for a beginner, and more than three hives are intimidating. 2 hives is great to start and learn from in the first year, and you can compare them and use one hive to help the other as was said. One hive is downright heartbreaking if you lose it. (i know) 
A beginner has a real hard time knowing if their one hive is sick or not with nothing to compare it to. The hive i had last year that died over the winter was obviously weaker than my other hive even last fall- so it was no big surprise when it did not make it through winter.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Hhmm...this thread is a little doom and gloom! Losses are a risk but not a certainty. I started with a package last spring with a Russian queen. This was just a plain old package of what I assume were treated bees. I didn't expect to get any honey but ended up extracting about 100 lbs. And, I made a mid-summer split that I introduced an treatment-free Russian queen to. 

At this point both colonies have overwintered and are increasing. The only treated bee left is my original queen.

While mites get the most attention, there are other reasons hives die.

Tom


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

I don't treat except with sugar,soy,and brewers yeast. That said it gets me to see bee clubs put calenders on their websites for new beekeepers. Telling them what chemicals to dump in their hives on a certain date. There is no mention of testing for mites or even looking for AFB, just dump them in on this date. Chemicals include Tra-Kill (Menthol), Apistan (2 times per year), Terramycin (2 times per year), Fumidil-B (2 times per year).

David


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

TWall, the purpose of this thread is not "gloom and doom" but encouragement - to help beginners see that it can be done, and here's an easy way to get started being treatment free and minimizing your losses. Is it going to be easy? Nope! But it is possible, and a lot cheaper than using chemicals.

So, come on folks, where's a good source of treatment free bees? Feral? yep! Raise your own, of course! But you have to start somehow.
Regards,
Steven


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Withdrawn.


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## beeweaver (Sep 2, 2008)

When my husband told other commercial apiarists that he was going to leave hives untreated for varroa mites in the early nineties in order to breed a 'mite resistant' bee they laughed (at best). 

15+ years later and it has been 11 years since we have purchased miticides... and now who is laughing. 

Not really, it is not a laughing matter, agriculture is always a struggle. There is no perfect season and there is no perfect critter. But... I commend you all for trying and for doing what you can, and for succeeding as much as nature allows. To embrace the process shows a joy in the what life is about, and truly it is a lot more fun to get our hands (and grandchildren.... and pigs!) away from compounds that can harm us.

I hope your bees have a wonderful spring season.

~laura


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

I am treatment free............I buy daughters of glenn II queens and then graft from them...seems to be working as the state inspector and i only found one mite in all breeders and a 4 drone mothers. 

mike


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Laura -

Kudos for stepping out on your convictions. Are all your 2011 bees spoken for or can we still get packages/queens? What is your take on foundation size for your bees? If one wants to use SC, is there still a size adjustment needed there as far as packages?


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Yeah, I'm not gloomy at all, despite having lost a couple of hives so far. I have one strong survivor hive this Spring, another nuc coming in the mail, and I'm really optimistic and looking forward to making some queens and nucs for myself this year!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm not gloomy, just serious. I really don't want to see beekeepers get discouraged after just starting out. I have two such person's equipment among my own now after they gave up and gave it to me.

It's like when my friends come over to watch and ask "am I going to get stung?" Uh, yeah. You are. But you know what? The pain goes away after a little bit. The learning stays forever.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

To put this "gloom" in perspective, though, the last year I treated for Varroa I lost all of them to Varroa. People who are treating are losing every bit as many hives as those of us who are treating not, if not more hives.

Just because you do desperate things does mean they are the best things.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

WiredForStereo said:


> The pain goes away after a little bit. The learning stays forever.


I say “keep bringing the pain”. If all I hear is about a rose lined level path and I run into a constant hill to climb with wildflowers I would be disappointed. If I hear that it is a climb with some flowers, I in the same path I will be elated! Perhaps it’s all about expectations with me. Tell me your experiences and let me make the decisions on work / cost which path to follow. I am just getting started and have been pretty shocked at all the chemical talk and total loss of investments so far. T-30 days to getting my first 2 nucs.:applause:


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Congratulations, keep us updated as you go along. We look forward to it.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

minz said:


> T-30 days to getting my first 2 nucs.:applause:


Minz, don't let anyone get you discouraged. 
Here is a video I took last year on the day my first two nucs arrived in the mail from Don/FatBeeMan who sells mostly untreated bees from Georgia.
I was _so excited_, and yes a little scared too, thinking about how I would be installing my first hives the next day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4MB3veiEa0

I'm getting one more nuc from Don this Spring too, along with one for my neighbor buddy who will be starting his first hive....so we'll be getting an identical double nuc package in the mail again.
But i also will be making some new nucs from my second year hive I got from Don last year- one of those in the video that has survived its first winter now.


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## Risky Beesness (Dec 29, 2010)

> T-30 days to getting my first 2 nucs.


26 days for me. I will pick up my 1st two nucs from Bee Weaver on 4/10. My next two nucs will be coming from LA, in early may. I assume they are not treatment free since their website makes no claims as such. I had ordered them before I made the decision to go treatment free. I do not intend to treat them either. Do you think they will promote the spread of VM?


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I think that another great resource would be a compilation or list of treatment free package or nucs. Perhaps divided into norther and southern. I would like to start with some treatment free nucs (next year), but would like a source that was out of the SHB range. 
Thanks


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> People who are treating are losing every bit as many hives as those of us who are treating not, if not more hives.


I don't really think that's true. I don't lose any.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

First you have to determine what caused the hive to die. Sometimes it has nothing to do with treating or not. Things like poor queens, small cluster, lack of stores, starting nuc to late so the bees have time to organize the brood nest, and moisture, due to not enough ventilation, have nothing to do with treating. I see a lot of people on this site and others that treat, assume that the loss of the hive was due to the keeper not treating. When most of the time it was operator head space and lack of knowledge.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Excellent point! 

A fantastic skill for a beginner to develop is the ability to perform a good post mortem examination.

Questions to answer:

Was there brood?
Was there a queen in the cluster?
Was there a cluster?
What was the condition of the dead bees?
Were there bees head down in cells?
Was there food?
Where was the food?
Are there varroa mites lying about?
Is there an open queen cell in the middle of the cluster?
On what date did they die?
What were the weather conditions?
Was there condensation?
Were there mice?
Are there wax moths?
How large was the cluster?
What was the queen's lineage?
Have related queens shown similar problems?

I could go on, but you get the point.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Thanks for the great list, Solomon! Have copied it and put it in my bee file for when "that day" comes.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

:lpf: Probably 80% of the posts on this thread are off topic! Valuable information, but still off topic...
Ok, souces of treatment free bees so far are: Bee Weaver, Glenn Apiaries, and Russians from various members of the Russian Bee Breeders Association.
Any others?

And, of course, splits from your own treatment free colonies. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Is the topic of this thread 'where to obtain treatment free bees'?
If so, I didn't quite get that.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hmmm.....


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

From my initial post: "Now, generally speaking, when we speak of treatment free, we mean that no chemical treatments are used for mites. I would refer you to the thread "Define Treatment Free". The purpose of this thread is not to discuss "treatment free" or the meaning thereof, but to share sources of treatment free bees, and how best to begin treatment free."

Don't misunderstand, I'm fine with the meanderings this thread has taken, as it has been valuable to the readers. I would have hoped we would have identified more sources of treatment free bees by this point, however. And perhaps I should have been more clear in my choice of titles for the thread. It apparently reveals my bias that the best way to begin treatment free, is to start with treatment free bees. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

edit - off topic plus my question has been answered elsewhere, thanks StevenG


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

StevenG said:


> From my initial post: "...and _how best to begin treatment free_."


I guess I was focusing on that aspect of your orig post.



> I would have hoped we would have identified more sources of treatment free bees by this point, however. And perhaps I should have been more clear in my choice of titles for the thread.


I think a thread with the distinct clear title specifically for listing sources of treatment free bees would get more responses, like the one for sources of 'treatment free queens'. Of course, some of the sources listed in that thread are not exactly what some people would call treatment free. Again, there's this annoying problem of the definition of treatment free that we all keep crashing into. Sorry, i do mean to be helpful. Maybe bee sources could be categorized according to how the bees are managed and what, if any, treatments are used by certain suppliers of bees, and then folks could make their own decisions on what they want.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> FatBeeMan who sells mostly untreated bees...


This definition stuff is complicated...


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Oldtimer's question above was if I use small cell in my treatment free bees program, and I do not. Wax foundation in wooden frames, and wooden frames foundationless.

Regarding "mostly treatment free" bees... I have no personal experience with such a bee. I have heard that if one doesn't treat bees that have been treated, they are guaranteed to crash. Such information has also been posted on this forum in different threads, by people who have experienced such crashes. Search it if interested. 

Personally, I am not willing to risk time and money on bees that have been treated in any way shape or form, "mostly untreated" or otherwise. Nor do I believe in "soft" treatments, as that covers a vast arena of possibilities, activities, and chemicals, either natural or man-made. I am convinced that my success is simply by starting with bees that were untreated, and remaining treatment free. But, "you pays your money, you takes your chances" :lookout:
Regards,
Steven


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## franklinminty (Aug 27, 2010)

And T-20 and T-27 for my getting my first 2 packages (2 different sources).

I'm hoping to practice treatment free, SC, unlimited brood nest on 8 frame medium foundationless hives.

I have 20 frames of HSC and have some question. Am I crazy to plan on cutting the HSC to fit mediums?

Does one checkerboard out the HSC?

I'm new to beesource, so please tell me to jump to another thread if I'm mis-posting!


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

franklinminty said:


> I have 20 frames of HSC and have some question. Am I crazy to plan on cutting the HSC to fit mediums?


I would recommend that you cut the ends off of the hsc and then simply cut them in half. Then use a hot glue gun to tab them into wooden frames. This will leave about one inch gap at the bottom for the bees to build what they want.

It works for me...

Use a table saw.


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## franklinminty (Aug 27, 2010)

Thank you! Do you use this permanently? I was intending to use the HSC for quick regression and then move to foundationless.

Any chance you have a photo? Its breaking my brain a little bit (although I'm also mid Dee Lusby's POV, which doesn't help!)


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

franklinminty said:


> Thank you! Do you use this permanently?
> 
> Any chance you have a photo?


I don't intend to use the hsc "permanently" but I haven't been as efficient at rotating it out of hives as I would like. Friends of mine also have trouble rotating my HSC frames out of their hives... 

If my bees were in my backyard I would have continued my experimenting with foundationless but it's not practical in my case. Some of my bees are about two miles from my home; the others are about 20 miles away on a little farm... 

The only picture I have shows one of my first hsc frames. I wouldn't do this again. For me it's too time consuming to fit the remaining pieces together. 












Carefully cut the ends off and then (carefully ) cut them in half.

There have been a number of discussions about how to attach the hsc to the wooden frames... My first trial with a hot glue gun worked so well that I never gave the other methods a second thought. You will see that the HSC will sometimes have a little bow to it. I would center and glue each end into place, then hot glue and hold the hsc in place while the glue cools.

Before you do this, you may want to coat the hsc with a little beeswax... but that's another subject.

Like you, I'm not sure this is the best place for this conversation.

I would suggest that you cut your frames down to 1 1/4" width now before you do anything else. Just have another sip of the Cool Aid and do it. I will have most of mine done this year.

You will have 9 frames in your 8-frame boxes...


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

StevenG,

You are saying that once a colony has been treated, there is no weaning them off treatments?

Are you saying that geneticly they cannot survive without treatments? or is this something to do with the comb or both?

If you catch a swarm what would you look for to determine if they were feral or kept & treated/ not treated?


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Lakebilly, that is what I understand. If colonies have been treated, it is a revolving door that never ends. And if one stops treatment, they crash either sooner or later. 

HOWEVER, I have no personal experience with that, as I always ask my sources of bees if they treat, and how. That determines whether I buy bees from them or not. I bought some MnHyg queens last summer, and they've not done well.

Regarding ferals or swarms, I've tried asking for vaccination documents, but they're not very obliging. :lpf: So I just assume they've not been treated, and I don't treat. The two I caught last year have done fine. But you just never know. As has been posted elsewhere, once you get on the treatment treadmill, it is very hard to get off. So I never got on. If a swarm I caught crashes for lack of treatment, I didn't want it anyway - it isn't a survivor, and we don't do ourselves or the ferals any favors by propagating bees that require treatment. Now commercial beeks is a different story.
Regards,
Steven


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

StevenG said:


> Lakebilly, that is what I understand. If colonies have been treated, it is a revolving door that never ends. And if one stops treatment, they crash either sooner or later.


Tell me something. Have your children recieved their DPT shots yet? How about your dog? Have you treated it for the prevention of Rabies?

Your kids and dogs aren't DRUG ADDICTS because you treat them w/ drugs. Neither are honeybees who are treated w/ miticides.

Historically speaking, the feral colonies died out just as fast and as much as the managed colonies. Then, many of those vacant locations were filled in by swarms, which from my pov in all likelihood came from managed colonies. So, unless a feral colony has been observed for many years, and it has never died and been replaced by another swarm, what does one have, but the daughter of a managed colony?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Mr. Berninghausen, this thread will not devolve into a treating vs. Non treating argument. Please keep that in mind.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I have a swarm that I caught last year that is doing well, no treatments.

I have 1 colony that I bought it as a nuc, it was treated before I brought it home, it went queenless, no treatments after re-queening, doing well. The three others that I purchased with it died as I did not continue to treat them.

I bought a colony that I believe was treated & doing well. I hope it survives w/out treatment.

The reason I asked if it was genetic, housing or both is that I am concerned that I have untreated bees in boxes that were treated.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

If you have a little time to watch some videos, I suggest checking out deknow's Vimeo page. Link in the "Treatment free treadmill" thread. There you can find some solid info on what chemicals do in the hive. They're an hour and a half apiece, but they are very good.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

I understand that the comb absorbs the chemicals as time goes by so that can transfer in some degree to the rest of the hive. I have 2 hives that I bought that had been treated - last April. So I've got 5 frames treated and very old looking. I plan on rotating them out this spring hopefully. So far both hives are doing great now...after a combination of going queenless, swarming, robbing and being robbed. They seem hot to me and I'm thinking that may be why they are doing so well. I can see why they might still succumb to pests or disease, but I'm thinking a "crash" would have occurred if it were going to.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

:doh: t: Just figured out why it's so easy to get off topic. I received an update to this thread. I read the original question days ago. Now I'm reading the last post. I'm over 50. Don't remember the original question, but - like any "conversation" - I have a comment about the most recent thread I received so I comment. PLEASE DON'T THROW ME OFF THE ISLAND! Sorry for being off topic, but maybe can give a basis for a little grace??? The only reason I realized it was off topic is I went back and refreshed my memory on some of the other posts.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Solomon, I will check out the vids, thanx.

I have never wanted to treat my bees. I worked w/a commercial beek that strongly insisted that I did. I believe I used Terramycin twice, & nothing else. I have an awful lot (for me) invested & I would like to see a return. I think it a bad idea to treat & be dependent on that course of action. My mentor is gone & I will pursue non treatments.

I am getting nucs that have been treated & I want to do as little as necessary until I find a way out. I hope to get non treated nucs in the future.
I still wonder about the comb. I do not have much drawn comb, so that is probably good in one way.

Would you direct me to a thread that addresses the weaning/transition process? I haven't seen this topic yet, I will do a search. thx.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

lakebilly said:


> I am getting nucs that have been treated & I want to do as little as necessary until I find a way out. I hope to get non treated nucs in the future.


Lakebilly, here is a course of action you could follow to convert to non-treated bees this year if you want to do it:
Get your treated nucs for this year and get them established in their hives and feed them a few weeks to get them boosted and strong.
Meanwhile, call Sam Comfort, who lives in Germantown NY, not far from either you or me:
http://anarchyapiaries.org/
Order some queens from Sam, which will be ready for you to pick up later in the spring. Read up on how to properly introduce the new queens & requeen your hives with Sam's untreated & mated queens in mid Spring/early summer.
6-8 weeks later...all your bees will be untreated offspring of Sam's bees...voila! For the price of a few queens, you will go into next winter with _all_ untreated local bees, which will likely do better than trying to go into winter without treating your treatment-dependent bees.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks Omie! It is hard to realize it can be as simple as that to go from treatment, to treatment free.

Now, perhaps we ought to realize, when we talk about treatments for mites, and using terramycin (which is used for foulbrood), and fumagilin-B (which is used for Nosema), we're talking two different things. 

Generally speaking (and you know how much trouble that can get a person into! :lpf when we talk "treatment free" we're talking treatment of mites. 

In discussions with a successful commercial beek, who has bees in 40-50 year old equipment that has had apistan etc used in it, and bees in brand new non-treated equipment - he sees no differences in the health and activity of the bees. So I suspect you're ok being "treatment free" for mites in old equipment in which the bees had been treated for mites.
Regards,
Steven


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lakebilly said:


> Would you direct me to a thread that addresses the weaning/transition process? I haven't seen this topic yet, I will do a search. thx.


Isn't just as simple as buying bees and equipment and not treating?


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Tell me something. Have your children recieved their DPT shots yet? How about your dog? Have you treated it for the prevention of Rabies?
> 
> Your kids and dogs aren't DRUG ADDICTS because you treat them w/ drugs. Neither are honeybees who are treated w/ miticides.
> 
> Historically speaking, the feral colonies died out just as fast and as much as the managed colonies. Then, many of those vacant locations were filled in by swarms, which from my pov in all likelihood came from managed colonies. So, unless a feral colony has been observed for many years, and it has never died and been replaced by another swarm, what does one have, but the daughter of a managed colony?


Hi Mark! Thanks for chiming in, and good to hear from you again. I think you raise an interesting, and valid point. It isn't that the bees are "addicted" but that the mites develop resistance. And bees used to the crutch of treatments are unable without that help to ward off the mites. Just my supposition.

And you're right about the feral colonies...that's why I don't clip my queens. While I hate to lose swarms, I feel it is my way of repopulating nature with bees that are able to withstand the mites.

Now, back to your analogy of my kids and DPT vaccinations. That type of analogy is frequently used, but I wonder if we're not comparing apples to oranges. DPT (Diptheria, Pertussis, and Tetanus) are diseases. Mites are parasites. So, when we compare humans with DPT, would the comparable in bees be Nosema, IAPV, etc? And speaking of Varroa Mites in bees, would the equivalent in humans be ticks, fleas, and bed bugs? Maybe even head lice? 

My children (and grandchildren) are vaccinated against disease, but grooming habits take care of the parasites. Perhaps it is the same in the honeybee? Just what is it that makes certain honey bees mite-resistant? It is the hygenic behavior. As well as some other genetic traits, isn't it? Forgive me for speaking in generalities, I'm not a biologist or any kind of scientist, just a "backyard beekeeper." But I do wonder if that analogy holds? And if not, what is an appropriate analogy?
Regards,
Steven


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> Isn't just as simple


That's not helpful Mr. Berninghausen.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't mean to be a pain, but, being simple and straight forward, what is the big deal? Buy new equipment, buy a package of bees and don't treat them. They are therefore treatment free bees and so is anything they produce. I guess one could feel more pure by buying package bees from someone who hasn't treated. That would be good and satisfactory to the goal, wouldn't it?


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Are most people starting "treatment free" with packages or nucs?? If you choose to subscribe to the treatment free methods I can see buying a nuc from a "treatment free" practitioner because your buying viable brood and drawn comb...but i see a lot of new beekeepers wanting to start "treatment free" looking for packages from treatment free beekeepers...I cant see why it would matter if your buying a package, buy a package from anyone and replace the queen with a "treatment free" queen of your choosing...every other bee in that package will be dead in 30 days or so leaving the new "treatment free" queens genes to carry on.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Mark, 

Knowing what I know now, I think it may have been that simple. There are a lot of varying opinions from longtime beeks. it is hard to determine what happened to my bees let alone what to do with them in any given situation.

Omie,

Hope to do just as you suggest. First I have heard of him. I hope to locate more northern, non treated nuc suppliers. I have found some, my order was late. Is there a thread with northern bred non treated suppliers? I am not against natural or organic treatments, but I would prefer tough non treated bees. 

Then I will make my move to take over & rule the whole queen raising market of the entire northern hemisphere ooooooohoohahahahahahahaha!:lpf:


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

If you have some time this is a very good video of Dean talking about getting started on the "treatment free treadmill."

http://vimeo.com/10196856


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Thanks, Nasal. I was wondering what vid!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

lakebilly said:


> Then I will make my move to take over & rule the whole queen raising market of the entire northern hemisphere ooooooohoohahahahahahahaha!:lpf:


Good comment Lakebilly. In fact that would be the desire of many here, and the fact it has not been done shows it just isn't that simple.

As a case in point, the queens I sell are from treatment free hives, and from several generations of queens that have never seen treatment. However I never mention it to my customers or make any claims. 

Because that would make it all seem more simple than it really is and my customers might lose hives.

No matter how hard i try, some of my other hives have to be treated or die. I could just let them die, but what for? I just don't breed from them.


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