# Q: Theorictical Honey per Acre



## Rader Sidetrack

Around here, ungrazed former pastures are colonized by cedars, and then eventually hardwoods will overtake the cedars. Over time, without intervention, it will return to forest.

I have planted 300 thornless blackberry plants, of 6 varieties, plus 30 raspberries. They produce well, but to fill a 100 acres would take a _lot _of labor in terms of maintenance.

I would first explore to see whether someone local is interesting leasing a portion of that land to run cattle. 

Assuming you don't want a return to forest, if the land is not too hilly to bushhog, I would seed with a mix of "wildflower/weeds", and set a bush hog rotation plan so that the entire property is mowed n segments, over a span of every 3 years or so.


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## KevinR

I would bush hog it yearly, I have no intention of allowing pasture land to go rogue. Unless it's with a tree that I specifically plant.. i.e. BeeBee trees or the like. We have another 97 acres that is in CRP land, and it's amazing how quickly it can grow trees, but not much stands up to bush hog / brush cat assuming you stay on top of it.

That's why I was looking at the blackberries/fruit trees/etc on 8 foot centers, that's the width of the bush hog. *grins*

I currently have 100 blackberries planted and I believe that 100 acres would be a significant task to undertake, but the possible return on investment might offset that. Or at least allow for the ability to higher part time labor.

Grapes for a wine vineyard could be an option, but I don't know if Honey bees work grapes.

I'd "like" to figure out the most bang for buck honey plant(s)... That require the least amount of effort, money and are readily plant-able.


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## Mbeck

I'm not a farmer but I can't imagine the cost of anything you plant and maintain only for nectar will be cheaper than sugar. Maybe it's better to encourage the "good" plants that already grow there and discourage the "bad". Fertilizer, round up and a little brush hogging. Plant for the deer, invite me up to hunt and I'll buy you 100# of sugar! .


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## bdbee

I'm in a similar situation, and here's what I'm doing after considerable research: I'm planting lavender bushes and clover in a pattern that is blocks of lavender separated by 7 ft (width of the bush hog) rows of clover. Starting next spring with 1,000 lavender bushes, planted 3 ft apart. Should be a bee and honey paradise! An acre would probably accommodate 4,000+ bushes and keep 20 colonies plenty busy. Lavender is lots of work (pruning and weeding), but if you're interested in best honey bang for the buck, check the prices of lavender honey online. Also an excellent u-pick crop. I have 200 acres and just doing this for starters on a back section of a hayfield. Also thinking of doing a separate area with sourwood trees.

Good luck with whatever you choose!


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## crofter

I think it would be important to plant things that have staggered or sequential peak nectar periods. Individual hives tend to stick to a single flow till something else comes in bloom that gives more reward for the effort. I have planted buckwheat and the bees dont work it unless it is cloudy and damp and the other flowers dont open. White Dutch clover and raspberries would be ahead of yellow and white sweet clover that comes on later in summer and would be good till close to goldenrod comes on. Birdsfoot treefoil is good for a long season here and I think the mile or so of it on secondary road banks are a good portion of my honey source. If you plant something that competes with existing plants it could be disappointing to see the bees not seem to appreciate it.

These are some examples that would work in my area but your local area would be sure to have different ones.


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## Almondralf

bdbee said:


> An acre would probably accommodate 4,000+ bushes and keep 20 colonies plenty busy.!


An acre will more likely keep 1-4 strong colonies busy - if in full bloom - not 20!


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## crofter

It is in print somewhere of what honey yields are per acre. I think white clover was something like 500 lbs. Some of the keeps from the huge canola fields probably have good figures. What do you do with the bees when the monoculture flow is over. Unless you can utilize an existing source it might not be very good return to plant for bees unless the plant is supplying some cash in itself.

I am not knocking the idea but it might be more feel good than really effective.


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## KevinR

If each hive puts up 500 lbs, the mono culture is a moot point. But they would have 52k plus acres to play on in addition to my 100...


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## max2

You may find this of interest: Bee Friendly: A planting guide for European honeybees and Australian native pollinators.

Not sure if you can open it from OS but it does offer expected yields


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## KevinR

http://www.permaculturenews.org/files/bee_friendly_planting_guide.pdf


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## max2

KevinR said:


> http://www.permaculturenews.org/files/bee_friendly_planting_guide.pdf


That's the one - please remember that some of our Australian natives can be weeds in the US!!


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## crofter

KevinR said:


> If each hive puts up 500 lbs, the mono culture is a moot point. But they would have 52k plus acres to play on in addition to my 100...


Five hundred pounds total potential honey per acre, not per hive. That is just from memory and surely needs checking. I think it may have been kicked over on this forum a few years ago; that is the economics of planting for forage for bees. Rader sidetrack may find it. I dont think monoculture is moot because of the dearth typical when the bloom of one ends. I am not much of a farmer but I know there can be quite a range of cost per acre for tillage to establish different crops. It makes a difference too to whether you are philosophically allergic to glyphosate! 

Lots of things you can do if you really want to: If you have to make it show in the black on a balance sheet, some things are hard to fly.


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## max2

Good point, crofter.
The figures in the above mentioned book ( it is a Government publication and referenced) are indeed per ha not per hive. Per hive yields depend on to many factors.
I do plant allsorts to improve yield but there is not doubt that a mono culture is not really desirable and that the little I plant makes little difference.
In Australia about 80% of the honey comes from tress - mostly Eucalypt.
Plant for diversity and if we all are doing our bit it must make a difference.


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## KevinR

500 per acre, but I asked about planting 100 acres..... Sooooooo in a perfect world.. that's 500 per hive at 100 hives, or 250 per hive at 200 hives....

But it doesn't matter, because I don't know if those numbers are 100% accurate... Just looking for options.

As for planting 100 acres, that shouldn't be the end of the world.. I believe it's 8lbs of clover per acre, so 800 lbs. Which is 16 50lb bags or roughly 3200 dollars... "If" 100 hives made 500 lbs per... That would be 50k lbs of honey... Which again, probably isn't realistic, but I should only have to plant once... "If" it's 50k... at 2bucks per pound, that would be 100k... Which should more than offset the 3200 dollars.

Again, I don't expect it to put out that much... I just want to make as much honey per hive as possible to cut down on feeding... I agree that ideally, I would have staggered nectar sources, which is the type of information I'm looking for...


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## jmgi

There is no one who will be able to tell you how much honey to expect from a certain number of acres with a certain number of hives, unless you conduct the experiment yourself and share the results, its that simple. I would start out with just planting 100 acres of white sweet clover, of course it won't produce flowers until the second year after planting. Set up 50 hives the year you plant the clover and see how they do without the clover flowers and see what they produce. The second year when the clover blooms see how much more honey the 50 hives produce. They will gather nectar from anything within a couple miles in every direction, but the impact of the 100 acres of clover alone should benefit the total honey crop you get. There are too many variables that will affect a test like this to get an extremely accurate answer, such as weather, colony strengths, etc., but it should give you somewhat of an idea which is about the best you could hope for.


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## Jon11

What is the land you currently have like? You said you had 20 acres of random grass, what about the rest? If it is in woods I would try find or make clear spots to plant tulip poplars. If you plant locust trees you want the black locust not the honey locust. If the land is clear the idea of renting some of it out for pasture makes a lot of sense. You get money for your land and don't have to do any of the up keep. You could also put in a stipulation that the renter has to maintain the white clover in the pasture. Then you could always set aside a few acres to experiment on and plant sweet clover, buckwheat, crimson clover, blackberries, vitex, or whatever else you can think of.


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## KevinR

The 90 acres is currently surrounded by primarily woods, miles and miles of them... oaks, tulip poplar, persimmons, etc... In a few areas, I've opened the places up leaving the tulip poplars and planting the bottoms for deer food plots.

I don't expect a 100% answer, that's why I said it would be theorycraft. 

Does anyone know of a source with flower bloom dates?


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## JClark

Maybe try this for pasture planting:

http://www.naturesfinestseed.com/pa...atlantic-transitional-honey-bee-pasture-blend

Not the cheapest but I'm planning to try a little of the mid-atlantic version on my 100 acres in PA. Think I have enough for 5000 sq ft just to see how it does.


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## KevinR

Looks interesting, but you probably only need to buy 10% Sainfoin (Onobrychis viciifolia), 5% Sweet Alyssum (Lobularia maritima), 5% Cornflower (Centaurea cyanus) at the elevated prices...

Dutch, Sweet, and Crimson are readily available from your local seed co-op.. Crimson being the cheapest by far...


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## reidflys

wild borage really helps in tennessee,
I am wanting to plant some bluebeard (don't know if that spelled right)
I've heard good things.
Midsummer is what I would plant for, here that is the toughest time.
Also what about Niger, so you have a target planting.
Clover is dependable in my region without planting it. But tennessee is really splitting 
climate zones big time nowadays, 
Tennessee has a cost sharing program for what your working on, 
also ut is doing a study on bee plants right now, offer to let them plant it for you, there may be a bit of intrest
All the best, man has it been cold here!!


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## KevinR

reidflys said:


> wild borage really helps in tennessee,
> I am wanting to plant some bluebeard (don't know if that spelled right)
> I've heard good things.
> Midsummer is what I would plant for, here that is the toughest time.
> Also what about Niger, so you have a target planting.
> Clover is dependable in my region without planting it. But tennessee is really splitting
> climate zones big time nowadays,
> Tennessee has a cost sharing program for what your working on,
> also ut is doing a study on bee plants right now, offer to let them plant it for you, there may be a bit of intrest
> All the best, man has it been cold here!!


Do you have info on the cost sharing for the planting? I took advantage of the cost sharing on bees a while back... Debating on going big this year... Assuming I get signed up for it and they still have it next year.. i.e. Spending 30k on stuff to get the 15k back..


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## gmcharlie

USdA/Nasa has a chart with LBS ber acre, actualy black locust is one of the highest at 1200, white clover and 300...BUT BUT BUT.... that is witht eh assumption you have enough bees at teh right time to gather that. 

Take black locust yes 1200lbs an acre, but its a 2 week bloom how many hives/bees does it take to gather 1200lbs in two weeks?

Sunflowers/ canola are in thet range also,, but back to a 3 week bloom at best.


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## Snookie

What does Theorictical mean lol?


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## KevinR

Yea, also I believe in my area the black locust is pretty early in the year... I'd have to look it up to confirm... 

Now the question is that 300lbs per acre based on 1 hive, or is that per acre based on multiple hives. Also does it assume that you mow down on the deadheads for a 2nd bloom (dutch clover)?

I.e. if I planted 30 acres of white clover... Would you really expect to get 9000lbs of honey... minus whatever they eat..

I'd like to have a buffet for the bees... I posted in the commercial about the max feed per hive during a dearth. Ideally, I'd have maximum number of bees/hives/queens and sell those.. They can eat the 9000lbs of clover, as long as I don't have to feed them. *grins* 

Or maybe it's more cost effective to harvest the 9000lbs of honey, sell it and feed them back 9000lbs of sugar... *shrugs* 

The end result would be to minimize feed input cost and maximize the amount of hives that an area can support.


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## KevinR

Snookie said:


> What does Theorictical mean lol?



Perfect on paper numbers that don't account for the end of world catastrophes that happen. i.e. on paper it says your getting 300 lbs of honey per acre, in reality your 30 acre field was cropped dusted by your neighbor because you shot his dog for killing your chickens....

Although, I'm sure you could have googled for a real definition.

Since you can't "account" for weather, crop loss, bee death, and random crop dusting neighbors... You work on the best case scenarios then cut them in half or more...


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## Snookie

Thanks Sir

Kinda like Obama Care huh?


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## KevinR

Close enough... *grins*


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

When I studied in Michigan for a degree in Soil biology I learned that minerals and excess water greatly effect the production of nectar.

Healthier plants produce more. Stressed one can't afford to secrete as much.

Balanced and proper quantities of Magnesium, calcium, iron and phosphate (and others) really impact the sugars produced per plant.


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## gmcharlie

AS well as weather. Too much rain washes away nectar, to little puts plants in drought mode


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## R Dewhurst

Lacy phacelia and anise hyssop are documented to be good. Also if you have that much land just do buckwheat on a rotation planting where you plant 50 acres every two weeks. You would get constant blooms and all you need to do to reseed is bushhog and disk. Two weeks later the patch is blooming again. Plus the honey is awesome. I was given a small jar that is 30 years old!


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## Sharpbees

If you are looking to plant with the least amount of upkeep I would recommend planting trees. Tulip polar, black locust, sourwood, bee bee trees. Fruit trees are a good choice but need to be maintained. Clover and wildflowers planted along with the trees give you more potential forage on the same land. Personally if I were planting for bees I would look for plants that will also produce a sellable crop. I would also look for plants that will bloom at different periods of the season in order to provide forage throughout the season. Another thing you might look at is planting something that blooms during your summer dearth period when most of the natural forage has stopped producing.


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## Dominic

Linden is greatly appreciated by the bees, produces a lot of nectar. You can also harvest it to make herbal tea.


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## KevinR

Ideally it would require little upkeep.... Depending on where I do it, the plants will be to augment the tulip poplars I already have. 

There are hundreds around the family property... We have already started opening a 5-10 acre bottom that is full off 2'+ diameter tulip trees... Planning to plant it full of clover for bees/deer..

On that property, I'm mainly looking for ideas to augment the existing flowers... Summer blooms would be a good idea, if there is a plantable crop for that. I have some beebee trees started, but it will be years until they are worthwhile.

When I start from scratch on a new piece of land, then I'll plant a lot of trees... both fruit and honey production... I'll probably do some black locust fence rows for firewood/forage... And hopefully the occasional rabbit hunt. *grins* 

Keep the ideas coming... This will be a work in progress for years...


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## Sharpbees

You might contact your forestry service to find out about native fruit trees also. Here in KY wild plum trees are available through them. Look for native plants that bloom throughout the summer and try to add more of those plants to your property.


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## WBVC

I don't know much about this topic but can say this...

We have blackberry and to us it is a weed....turn your back and it is 15 feet high and taking over everything. I can't imagine planting it in rows!

We top dress paddocks with clover...it is a biennial and we need to top dress every three years or so.


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## BGhoney

Phacilia is listed as 1,500 lbs of honey per acre with 900 lbs of pollen. I have an acre and the bees love it, I didn't notice a bunch more honey . Its very drought tolerant. I mixed in a little borage for longer lasting bloom.


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## Hogback Honey

Crimson Clover, had some years ago, only flowered really well the first year, the second yer very sparce, then nothing. BIG expensive disappointment.


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