# PERMACOMB??



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bee-l.com/bulletinboard/seets/permacomb.htm


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## GABE (Jun 14, 2004)

OK Thanks 
I read the "applicaton note " as meaning that you cannot mix permacomb with other type frames in a super for "bee acceptance" I am going to go back through the threads on this subject to see if I can get a solid recommendaton or rejection from a user. If I remember correctly, you (Michael) said you use it. The big suppliers don't carry it 1. becaause it is patented and they can't ? or 2. because it doesn't work?? It is still a mystery.


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## GABE (Jun 14, 2004)

Ok - I found more info this time, sounds like,with only one hive and not much experience I better stick to the more commonly used stuff.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If all you use is PermaComb it makes no difference. If you have PermaComb that has been used by the bees before, it makes no difference. If you put NEW PermaComb in a box with frames of bare wax foundation they will drawn the foundation before they will use the PermaComb. It won't be a disaster of any kind. They simply will prefer the wax to the plastic. This is true of plastic foundation, plastic frame/foundation (like Pierco) etc. The same rule applies anytime you use plastic foundation or comb.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>if I can get a solid recommendaton or rejection from a user. 

I have 50+ colonys. >95% all PC, I'm still weeding out my last few deeps. I am ordering another thousand frames for this springs increase and supers for last years increase.

Yeah, I kinda like it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Maybe, for you newbies, this will clarify. This applies to all the plastic. It's just like putting a piece of cherry pie and a bowl of broccili in front of your kids at the same time. If you want them to eat the broccoli, you should wait to put out the cherry pie.

If you mix wax and plastic the bees will jump on the wax and ignore the plastic. If you put in all plastic they will use it when they need comb.

There is no great impending disaster if you mix them. They just have their preferences and if you want them to follow YOUR preferences you should limit their choices.

I wax dipped my PermaComb and mix it freely with everything. Wax, foudnationless, plastic, whatever, with no problems.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Does anyone out there know how they spray wax on the plastic foundation? 

I spray all my PC with syrup and HBH, but have been thinking of dipping it in syrup for better coverage. However, if there is an easy way to spray wax on the PC, I would like to try that too.

I have thought about using one of the old style air spray paint guns, setting the pot in hot water when it starts to clog, but don't know...


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## djstory (Jan 27, 2005)

Does spraying with syrup/HBH help them to accept it? I am thinking about starting new hives on foundationless and PC. Will this work if I spray the PC? I don't have any comb that isn't pretty saturated with apistan and other pesticides I have used over the years to try to "treat" my bees. I would like to make a clean start with a few hives to see how they do, so I would rather not use old comb. Again- will this work to blend PC and foundationless? 

thanks

don


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## wjw777 (Mar 24, 2002)

Hey Guys,
Never heard of it, how is permacomb different than other plastic foundations?? Tell me more . Is it completly drawn plastic comb that the bees just dip their little tongues in and deposit their drop of golden honey ??? need info on it 
thanks 
Walt


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## wjw777 (Mar 24, 2002)

hey, when the bees cap the comb , do you use a knife or what to remove cappings where to not hurt the plastic comb tell me more
Walt


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<Is it completly drawn plastic comb >>

Bingo. The link above is good, with pictures.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you space them 9 frames or less to a box they will be thick enough (usually) to just cut the cappings off with a cold knife without involving the plastic. If they don't draw it out (at the end of the flow etc) and they cap it below, then you will really need a Hackler Honey Punch to uncap them.


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## wjw777 (Mar 24, 2002)

im getting a 3 lb package of bees im going to all mediums brood and supers , would you use the peracomb on this 3 lb package for the brood area after that during the honey flow maybe go to wax and wooden frames is this permacomb covered with wax i just have a hard time seeing a queen laying eggs in a cell of plastic. hey mike would you use it thanks
Walt


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## Pugs (Jul 15, 2004)

Well, I'm not Mike, but from reading his past postings, he coats the Permacomb with wax at home. Since he does this, I would guess that Permacomb is not already wax coated.

Pugs


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

See my post on the other forum. I guess people who don't have anything else do OK. I hate it. I forgot to mention it's impossible to space unless you install spacers. I even added screw to the endbars to space them, cut off the tabs and shortened the actual supers. Mikes right about the cherry pie/brocolli analogy. That's true with all plastic. Why then, not give them what they like? 

dickm


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

dickm:

plastic is convienant for the beekeeper! some bees like to draw on it, some do not. you just have to make it attractive for theem!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I space mine with the "molded" aluminum frame grip. I just bump the grip against the last frame. They are spaced a bit closer than typical 10 frame spacing, but it works fine and it's simple enough for me to do without putting in spacers.

No, PermaComb is not wax coated. I heat mine to 200 degrees F in an oven and dip it and shake off the excess wax. It's a messy process but it works great. I end up with PermaComb that has no acceptance problems and the cell size is equivelant to about 4.95mm.

What bees seem to like to draw the most, is their own comb without any foundation. I'm all for it.


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## nhbeekeeper (Oct 1, 2004)

mb can you post a pic on your site of the "molded" frame grip


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Can someone who has some permacomb lying around
take a tape measure and provide the exact dimensions
of the following?

1) Overall height, top of top bar to bottom of
frame.

2) Thickness of top bar

3) Height of frame spacers at point where
a frame rests on the spacer above rabbet
(so I can work out the proper rabbet depth)
If this is confusing, it would be the
"bottom bump to top valley measurement".)

The idea here is to look at cutting down
mediums to accept these frames, so that bee
space is still obeyed when supers of permacomb
are deployed as honey supers.

Deploying these things in standard mediums would 
mean "a mess" for extraction, as the bees are 
sure to draw comb below or above each frame, and 
this comb would be unsupported.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'll try to get the measurments when I get home. I assume we will ignore the tabs.

But cutting down supers has been tried by several people and the bees still connect them with comb. The bees will connect with burr any frames with a very thin top bar. I've experience this with DE hives and there are many reports of the problem with early Langstroth frames. This was documented by C.C. Miller. He stated that thick top bars were the solution. With PermaComb there IS no top bar AND no bottom bar. The cells run all the way from top to bottom, so the bees just keep on going since there is no delineation like the top bar and bottom bar in a frame.

Mr. Seets's solution is to break the supers loose and leave them on for the bees to clean up what leaks and then come back and get the supers.


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## Sungold (May 11, 2003)

Jim,

You are correct, they do draw below/above the PC frames. There are ways of working this so that it's managable (ie cracking supers loose and letting the bees clean up the below/above honey before removing the supers. Personally I like PC in the honey supers but don't like it for the brood chambers. It's real easy to spin in the extractor. Turn it on and let it rip!


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

So, no one has solved the problem of
"proper bee space" as applied to these frames?

I know CC Miller's comments about "thick top
bars", but weren't his comments specific to
his use of a "Heddon slat honey-board", or some
such obsolete gear used with wooden sections
for comb honey?

Those who get excessive comb-building along the
tops and/or bottoms, have you measured the actual
space for bees between components, and if so,
what sort of space have you found?

>The bees will connect with burr any frames 
> with a very thin top bar

I don't understand the reason for this, as
I've made some observation hives with VERY
thin top bars (stainless steel frames!) and
not had this problem. The reason for stainless
steel was to simply "look cool". The entire
ob hive was crystal-clear lucite, so the frames
had to be "pretty".

So, if I can verify that 1/4-inch thick top
bars don't result in bridge comb when proper
bee space is provided, what is happening in
those hives where bridge comb does result?


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Jim,
I actually addressed myself to your concerns. The stuff comes with tabs on the bottom. I ran them through the saw to remove them. Then they were 1/2 too short for an ordinary super. I cut down the super itself. This would work as a 9 frame honey super unless they didn't draw out all the frames perfectly. Then you'd have to play with them to extract. They are heavy, expensive, and yeild a piece of equipment that won't interchange with anything else. The bees have to draw them out anyway. Thatis, they must add wax to give one something to uncap. I bought 2 supers and had them for 2 years. I recently gave them away.

dickm


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Sorry I didn't answer the question. The bridge comb results because the frames are 1/2 inch too short. It occurs on the bottom of the frames.

dickm


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## dimis (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi, 
..and how do you clean the permacombs after you spin the honey out? Aren't they full of wax and maybe propolis? With the conventional combs you can at least cut the combs out and melt the wax after honey is extracted. Also how you cut the wax seal in order to extract the honey without damaging the plastic?
dimis


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> how do you clean the permacombs after you spin the honey out?

I don't. The bees do.

> Aren't they full of wax and maybe propolis?

No.

>Also how you cut the wax seal in order to extract the honey without damaging the plastic?

With 9 frames or even 8 to a 10 frame box they are usually easily uncapped using a cold knife. The low spots are uncapped with a Hackler honey punch.


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## dimis (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks Michael,
I am convinced and I will try it. As I am new (only 2 months experience) please look in my other posting today "Bees left.." I need your advise on that
regards, 
dimis


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Sorry the spacing will be off on the tables below.

>1) Overall height, top of top bar to bottom of
frame.

frame height: 6"

>2) Thickness of top bar

Thickness of "top bar" ends 3/8".

>3) Height of frame spacers at point where
a frame rests on the spacer above rabbet
(so I can work out the proper rabbet depth)
If this is confusing, it would be the
"bottom bump to top valley measurement".)

Thickness of spacer 1/8".

>So, no one has solved the problem of
"proper bee space" as applied to these frames?

Correct dimensions for box for PermaComb:
PermaComb	Standard	Difference
Box length: 19 1/2" 19 3/4" -1/4"
Notch width: 1/2" 3/8" +1/8"
Notch depth: 3/4" 5/8" +1/8"
(to make the 19" bars come out right with a bee space on the sides.

>I know CC Miller's comments about "thick top
bars", but weren't his comments specific to
his use of a "Heddon slat honey-board", or some
such obsolete gear used with wooden sections
for comb honey?

I remember reading CC Miller's statement and the light came on about the DE hives I have and the really thin top bars they have. They were good beespace but the bees always burred between the boxes and I had to learn to break the burr so I didn't pick up a box and take a bunch of the frames from the box below with me. I don't remember the exact context of CC Millers comment, only that it made sense then why they did that.

>Those who get excessive comb-building along the
tops and/or bottoms, have you measured the actual
space for bees between components, and if so,
what sort of space have you found?

It's been a long time since I measured the DE Hives but when I did they were within the normal beespace.

>I don't understand the reason for this, as
I've made some observation hives with VERY
thin top bars (stainless steel frames!) and
not had this problem. The reason for stainless
steel was to simply "look cool". The entire
ob hive was crystal-clear lucite, so the frames
had to be "pretty".

Maybe the metal helps. I have some standard langstroth frames that I cut the cleat and the opposing piece off in my top bars so the whole top bar is 3/8" and they burr it a lot.

>So, if I can verify that 1/4-inch thick top
bars don't result in bridge comb when proper
bee space is provided, what is happening in
those hives where bridge comb does result?

I only know what I've observed.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>The idea here is to look at cutting down
>mediums to accept these frames, so that bee
>space is still obeyed when supers of permacomb
>are deployed as honey supers.

>Deploying these things in standard mediums >would 
>mean "a mess" for extraction, as the bees are 
>sure to draw comb below or above each frame, >and 
>this comb would be unsupported. 

I tried cutting down boxes and do not recomend it. It makes the bee space close enough that they will propolize the remaining space making it real hard to seperate the boxes.

I trim the tabs off the bottoms of the frames only to make it easier to scrape the brood (drone cells) off when I extract. I don't use excluders. All other wax cells I leave on as it makes their job easier the following use as they don't have to remake the ladder.

Using PC is easier when you realize that you only have to change some of you habits to fit the PC.

Instead of prying the box up to remove the whole unit, first pry each end of the PC to break loose the frames. Doing this will make removing the unit much easier.

Offsetting the box 3/4 inch and giving the bees a little time to cleanup the spilled honey will also make life easier.

The real benifit is that by bridging each box is making a continious verticle comb for the bees and queen to move up and down the hive. The queen will move too high for some of your liking from time to time, but that is easily dealt with by moving those frames that she decided to lay in down and pulling some of the outer frames of honey up and out when harvesting.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Another two options would be.

Cut the frame rest deeper and add a strip of wood to the tops of the PermaComb.

Or use a standard box and add a strip of wood to the bottom of the PermaComb.

But I'm with Bill. I've learned to like the burr comb.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

For any of you that want even more information, and I mean a LOT of discussion, go here ->

http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000049.html 

For some reason it does not come up when doing a simple search, perhaps since it is a closed thread?

Anyway, if standardization is important to you, don't start cutting down boxes to fit PC, or trying to modify the PC. It's just not worth the time and trouble when it works fine the way it is. There are 'tricks' that you can use to hedge on the exceptance when you are trying to mix it with standard wood/wax.

I started out spraying with syrup/HBH and still do. However I have found another and quicker way to make the comb even more appetizing to the bees.

I was doing a cut out, and as usual I will put a frame of PC inbetween each wood frame with the cut out brood comb. As you can imiagine it is a pretty nasty, and sticky job chisiling out all the combs. Occasionally I would scrape the excess wax and honey off the hive tool on a frame. This has now progressed to taking chunks of honeycomb and pressing it into the frame in a rainbow shape just as the bees would their stores above the brood area. 

The dripping honey draws them right to the frame, and the wax makes them start the cleaning and polishing, making it ready for the queen to use.

MB has good results in coating his frames. I have not done it, but by just applying some honeyed capping wax I have had immediate results.

You can also just take a block of wax and rub it on the face of the comb.

I pick up a lot of swarms. I have been experimenting with spraying, waxing, and using pre-used frames. Generally I like to entice them with scents to get them to move into the nucs. Scenting them into a box lets them stay cohesive and is fun to watch. It's like watching your package flow into the new hive. 

The swarms that are on the ground, wall, and inside a small bush are always the hardest to pick up. I set the nuc as close as possible to the swarm, on the most difficult swarms I will scoop a few bees into the nuc then watch the scenting take over. Spraying syrup/HBH on bare frames works well to attract them, but the scent of used combs is even stronger and very little spraying is necessary.

All in all the first year is the hardest to adjust to, both for the bees and the beekeeper. It's much easier for everyone if you don't mix PC and W/W, but in the end, once the PC has been used, (by them or just immitated used by you) the bees don't know the difference.


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