# Forcing Supercedure



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I've become hardened about squishing queens, but maiming them would would be a big next step for me....


----------



## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Forcing a supercedure doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If the bees feel they need a new queen the will supercede. If you have a poor queen you need to get one with different genetics rather than perpetuate the traits you don't like with a supercedure.


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I think the idea is to trigger bees into raising a new queen. So if you have a two year old queen and would like a newer one, Dennis is suggesting cutting a foreleg off. The bees will take care of the rest. 

There is no mention of a poor queen or poor genetics. I've gotten a line of bees in the last 3 seasons that are great. They can supercede if they feel they need to and the queens usually gets mated and returns to egg lay. No need for me to intervene. Too many lines nowadays superceed or swarm and the virgins do not return. Now you are out a queen. If you run hundreds or thousands you now have a dead-out. Work to clean it out store it and re-stock next season. I much prefer the virgins who know their way home.

Seems like this could be a good idea, technique. The hive just keeps on going and 1 month later you have a new queen.

Jean-Marc


----------



## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Forcing a supercedure doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If the bees feel they need a new queen the will supercede. If you have a poor queen you need to get one with different genetics rather than perpetuate the traits you don't like with a supercedure.--(sierrabees) 


Dennis mentions that this is their primary method of rearing queens, so it is already assumed that the genetics are good and the queen the stock that is selected for breeding.

Actually, I have considered the potential that exists in injuring queens for rearing quality queens. The reason why this method would be preferred over killing or removing the queen, is that if one kills or removes the queen, this forces the colony to make fast decisions in selecting larva for rearing queens and this would lead to them being less choosy about the larva they build queen cells over. This can cause them to choose larva up to 4 days old or under fed larvae which can produce inferior queens.

By injuring the queen, the colony gradually becomes aware that the queen needs replaced. This causes cell construction to begin in advance of the actual need, and increases the potential that the queen will lay eggs directly in these cells, or the bees having more time to properly select larval and build cells over them. There is potential for rearing several rounds of cells using this method, simply by harvesting queen cells are they are developed. With the queen continuing to lay, the bees should continue to try and replace her, and the colony will not have been weakened in the process.


----------



## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Just a question here. It is my understanding that if a queen loses a front leg the queen then loses the ability to "gauge" or feel the cell size of the waiting cell. Am I wrong on this? I would think that injuring a hind leg or removing a leg segment would accomplish the task of causing the colony to supercede but would be reluctant to remove a front leg. Am I wrong with this assumption?


----------



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

..but has anyone tried this method?


----------



## cmq (Aug 12, 2003)

Whats wrong w/ keeping marked queens (so you know supersedure has taken place) and some spare queens located in nucs? That way you can be assured of a good replacement queen of known productivity. I'd rather spend my time looking and searching for desirable traits in the new queens I rear as well as monitoring the traits in the ones I elect to keep.


----------



## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

I have cut hind leg and very fast bees started to raise new queens. 

I have seen many cases from front legs and antennas which worker poison had made rigid. Bees have kept they queen. Laying is very bad or queen lays many eggs in one cell.


----------



## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Finman--are you saying that you have amputated or cut the hind leg off the queen or just removed a segment of the hind leg to cause the bees to supercede her?


----------



## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

I can't see myself doing that. My way of forcing supersedure is to take a ripe cell from a colony whose genetics I want to preserve, put a bit of foil round it, and slot it in between a couple of frames just outside the broodnest in the colony whose queen I want superseded. Mostly, the bees go ahead and replace the old queen.

[ October 12, 2006, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Robert Brenchley ]


----------



## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I can understand the reasoning behind this, but it seems to me that if one removes the queen for a few days and uses the Miller method to produce cells and raise the queens you can accomplish the same thing without losing a good queen.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There is the theory that the bees start with larvae that is too old. Jay Smith did not believe this. He believed they would not choose larvae that are too old and the reason that sometimes emergency queens are poor is because they can't tear down the cell walls. If this is true then the Miller method elinimates this problem.

"It has been stated by a number of beekeepers who should know better (including myself) that the bees are in such a hurry to rear a queen that they choose larvae too old for best results. later observation has shown the fallacy of this statement and has convinced me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances.

"The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."--Jay Smith


----------



## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

"There is the theory that the bees start with larvae that is too old. Jay Smith did not believe this. He believed they would not choose larvae that are too old and the reason that sometimes emergency queens are poor is because they can't tear down the cell walls. If this is true then the Miller method elinimates this problem.--(Michael)

It may solve the problem of not being able to chew down old comb,,,, 
But according to the research, Jay smith is wrong in that it also affects the age of the larvae choosen. in emergency queen rearing, queens are often made from old larvae 3 and 4 days old chosen by the bees.

Research has shown:
In a queenless colony, emergency queen cells were usually started over worker larvæ less than 2 days of age = 64.7%, cells were built over 3 day old larvae = 25.3% and 4 days = 10.0%. Only 2 of 268 cells 0.8 % were started over eggs. (R. D. Fell A. Morse 1984)

Often, the most mature cells picked first in colonies under emergency queen rearing will be theses 3 and 4 day old larvae, having being ahead in their development

[ October 13, 2006, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Dennis, first I would question the material you reference. Where did you read this about this being the "primary" queen rearing method? 

I also do not agree with the causual observation that old and new queens coexist. Does it sometimes happen, sure. But to requeen in this manner, the percentages better be near 100%, and I don't think its anywhere near this high.

I believe in selecting the top producing hives for perpetuating the genetics within my yards. Grafting from a few choosen hives and replacing the queens with the genetics I select makes more sense to me. 

>>>The queen continues to lay and the hive stays organized during the supercedure. 

Why would a hive be any different with placing a queen cell, or some other known queen rearing method? You are eluding that other methods somehow cause hives to be un organized. Not true.

>>>A mating failure doesn't doom the hive to queenlessness as would a queenless split, for the old queen most often coexists with a new queen for awhile. 

What? How is a queenless split doomed to queenlessness? Are you not placing a queen cell at the time of the split? This comment is so vague and assumes so much.

>>>And that guarentees eggs for a new try.

Well at least there is understanding that this method has some failure and risk involved. I would even venture to say, more than conventional queen rearing and requeening methods.

Leave it to beekeepers to find new ways to screw things up.


----------



## cmq (Aug 12, 2003)

>And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old.<

Never ??? or seldom?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old.<

>Never ??? or seldom?

Jay Smith is not around to answer your question. He said "never".


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Jay Smith is not around to answer your question. He said "never".

I don't have a problem accepting that statement. Bees that didn't know how to raise good queens should have been rapidly removed from the gene pool a long time ago.


----------



## cmq (Aug 12, 2003)

Emergency is not about being removed from the gene pool or "making a mistake" its about survival of the colony. The colony is then given an opportunity to supercede if the new (emergency) queen doesnt live live up to their expectations. I just have a problem with "never" or "always". As one who I am sure has observed supersedure and emergency queens you should too.


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Emergency is not about being removed from the gene pool or "making a mistake" its about survival of the colony. 

In deed it is about survival of the colony and Mother Nature is not going to be too forgiving of bees that don't get it right the first time, and neither am I









I've got a very short window of opportunity for raising queens here in Maine- about 3 months, June, July and August. If I don't waste any time and everything goes right, I can raise 2 batches of queens. This past summer, I tried twice and succeeded once







May is just too cold and wet, and September is just too late to be thinking about mating queens and requeening colonies. In many areas of the country, a colony that had to requeen itself twice in one season would be hard pressed to surive the winter without a lot of beekeeper help. More than likely, if I attempt to requeen a colony by letting them raise a queen for themselves, they've got one chance to get it right. If that fails, they'll likely end up being combined with another colony.

>I just have a problem with "never" or "always".

As well you should. I do to. That said, I'm still quite comfortable with the statement that bees "will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old." That is not to say they might not use an older larva for lack of anything better, but that would not be "by accident", it would not be a "blunder". To be honest, I don't have enough experience with bees or raising queens to say whether that happens often, or at all or whether the bees even have a concept of survival as in "any port in a storm" or "any queen is better than no queen at all".


----------



## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Finman and Everyone,

Did I get the wrong leg to cut? Is this a common practice?

Years ago, I made a few notes from an article in some bee literature. But never tried it. The article detailed beekeeping practices in some European country. It's just been too long ago. And I don't remember the details. But I still have my little note.

Regards
Dennis


----------



## Alienor (Mar 16, 2005)

This is NOT a practice in the civilized countries of Europe!
Our queens are holy, nobody would just think about handicapping them!!!
We kill them or make splits with them but we don't hurt them...


----------



## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--We kill them or make splits with them but we don't hurt them... 

What if we just tie one leg behind her back?


----------



## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Well, you could mimic and injured queen by use of pheromones.

In the supercede in honeybees, researchers have determined that pheromones play a role in this process. Reduced output of the pheromone 9ODA has been associated with an increase in supercedure (Butler & Patton 1962). It also known that a combination of 9ODA and 9HDA pheromones act together to suppress queen rearing. It is thought that pheromones from the Tarsal Arnhart and Mandibular glands stop queen cup construction. This is known as the footprint pheromone because it is spread by the queen as she walks on the comb. Caging & banking queens may contribute to supercedure as a result of damage to the tarsal pads.


----------



## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

would the trimming of a back leg be any more traumatic for the queen than the practice of clipping wings?
i find it interesting that wing clipping doesn't seem to be a supercedure trigger.
would the practice of clipping extremities be acceptable in a ecological beekeeping apiary?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've had lame queens (back legs) that layed for years. I don't think it would actually work. Front legs, of course, would cause drone layers.


----------



## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

Mike

While I was at Strachans I also had a breeder with a damaged center leg. She was one of the best layers that I had at the time.


----------



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Its really amazing what they are doing with prostetics these days....


----------

