# Creamed honey question



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

You say 90 degrees and cooling, so i don't know what the actual temperature was. But if it was a genuine 90 degrees, that is way too hot and very likely melted the little seed crystals in your seed (starter) honey. 

You'll just have to wait and see i guess. The ultimate temperature for creaming honey is 57 degrees, which includes mixing in the starter honey.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

What he said


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Couple questions: Last year I unintentionally made some fantastic creamed honey. I am almost out of it, but I have some set aside as seed so I can make some more.
1. Preferred way of mixing? Are bubbles an issue with a drill mixer? I will only be making a small amt (2-5 gallons) so I could mix small batches by hand if I have to.
2. Storage. From the above I am assuming I should store in a cool place at least until creamed, correct?
Last year I put a 5 gal bucket of liquid honey in my basement and it creamed beautifully. My basement is cool, but not sure what the temp was. I can wait until winter to make it to be sure its cold enough. J


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## KRhodes (Jan 31, 2014)

Air bubbles are an issue if you are going to sell it, for personal use not as important. I like the drill mixer that Blue Sky sells for 5 gal. patches, looks like a cork screw, run it so it pulls from the bottom of the bucket and it doesn't stir in many bubbles.
The ideal temp. is 57 deg. if I remember right. 55 to 60 is just fine. I like my creamed honey firm so I try to store it at 70 or below.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Correct, you do not want air bubbles in it, or at least not very small fine ones. They get trapped and look very unattractive in a glass jar.

Yes the temperature is important. Even if you use good quality creamed starter honey, the honey can granulate coarse if held for creaming at the wrong temperature. What should happen is the honey temperature is at or close to 57 degrees, has 10% starter added and thoroughly blended. The honey will then be completely creamed in 3 days if held at 57 degrees. 

If not stirred during creaming it will be what is called "hard creamed". If you want a soft creamed, ie, can be spread on a bit of bread without too much problems, it should be stirred during creaming, which prevents the tiny crystals locking into each other. Commercial packers use a very slow continous stirrer throughout the creaming process, but for a guy doing a few gallons at home it would probably be enough to stir it up every few hours.

Also for a hobbyist without temperature control, if you can cream honey during a time of year when the ambient temperature is around 57 degrees, and have it in a basement or similar which will reduce temperature swings, you can get a fair result even though temperature varied somewhat.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Great info, thanks guys. J


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Correct, you do not want air bubbles in it, or at least not very small fine ones. They get trapped and look very unattractive in a glass jar.
> 
> Yes the temperature is important. Even if you use good quality creamed starter honey, the honey can granulate coarse if held for creaming at the wrong temperature. What should happen is the honey temperature is at or close to 57 degrees, has 10% starter added and thoroughly blended. The honey will then be completely creamed in 3 days if held at 57 degrees.
> 
> ...


If you don’t use 10:1, less starter more liquid honey, will it still cream? I am thinking that honey will cream naturally and the smaller amount of starter should still cream it. Is that right or am I way off?


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

It will still cream it and it'll take a little longer but you should be fine. 

For those who get bubbles in their mix when using a drill attachment you might have better luck if you run your drill slowly in reverse or buy one of the paddle drill attachments that have simple "wings" instead of any corkscrew kind of action.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Ravenseye said:


> It will still cream it and it'll take a little longer but you should be fine.
> 
> For those who get bubbles in their mix when using a drill attachment you might have better luck if you run your drill slowly in reverse or buy one of the paddle drill attachments that have simple "wings" instead of any corkscrew kind of action.


Thank you, thats what I thought; I don’t like second guessing myself! I use the New Zealand method, not Dyce, it seems so much easier. I think it was from Oldtimer, but I’m not sure. I stir with a big spoon over about a weeks time, keeping it at room temp, then jar and chill. I pour the creaming honey over a spoon in the jar, it seems to me less air bubbles in the jar this way.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> If not stirred during creaming it will be what is called "hard creamed". If you want a soft creamed, ie, can be spread on a bit of bread without too much problems, it should be stirred during creaming, which prevents the tiny crystals locking into each other. Commercial packers use a very slow continous stirrer throughout the creaming process, but for a guy doing a few gallons at home it would probably be enough to stir it up every few hours.


That was the piece I have been missing, thank you! My creamed honey comes out just fine but has the consistency of cold butter. Spreads fine after you "scrape"some off with a knife.I could never figure out why and now I know. Next thing i need to figure out is how to resolve it without buying a machine.


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## illuder (Jun 21, 2020)

i heard that there's a 'rolling' method to crush the crystals into cream.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Thank you for the information. 

It is so timely for me as I was given an "old tank". The tank is a stainless steel tank that was silver braised or used a tin-silver solder alloy. It has a gear drive stirrer obviously with a very low RPM ratio and a domed water heater built in; heats water first which then heats the honey. 

After a bit of effort I find the whole unit is working with one tiny water leak. It had a 240Vac, 4500 watt heater which I am reducing to 1000 watts via a 115 Vac input. I prefer a slower warm up. After the clean up and a bit of painting and finding a decent food grade lubricant for the journal bearings, main stirring bearing is a sealed-ball bearing, I will attempt a smooth soft creamed honey based on your advice and the Dyce method. 

Do you pasturize the honey as in the Dyce method?


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

New Zealand method? Variations to the Dyce method? Pasteurized? I was given a piece of junk - a tank which is a 30 gallon honey creamer - I think.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Cloverdale said:


> If you don’t use 10:1, less starter more liquid honey, will it still cream? I am thinking that honey will cream naturally and the smaller amount of starter should still cream it. Is that right or am I way off?


if you either wish for more or have less starter, rather than the > 10:1 why not do it like bread?
Take your starter do a 5:1 batch to 5 times your creamed, starter,, then do another 5:1 30-45 days later.
Rather than a 25:1 out of the gate.

Just wondering?

GG


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Also, another reason for stirring is that it causes the crystals to contact one another. When they do they stop growing. 
When I make creamed honey I buy a commercially prepared product to use as the seed. Each subsequent batch grows a bit more course each time I use my creamed honey as seed. When that happens I just start over.
After I get it in jars I lay them on their sides so I can roll them around. You can encourage your other family members to roll them any time they are near.

Alex


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Robert Holcombe said:


> New Zealand method? Variations to the Dyce method? Pasteurized? I was given a piece of junk - a tank which is a 30 gallon honey creamer - I think.


the New Zealand method makes a softer cream than the Dyce Method. Warm the honey to reduce any crystals in it. Don’t pasteurize! Just warm enough to melt any crystals present, then let sit to room temp. then stir in your starter.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Cloverdale " If you don’t use 10:1, less starter more liquid honey, will it still cream? I am thinking that honey will cream naturally and the smaller amount of starter should still cream it. Is that right or am I way off?

I believe 5% or 20:1 is the minimum recommendation (by Dyce?)

An issue with pasteurizing quickly by Dyce method? 

I have discovered the test report by Dyce for creaming honey and updated interpretation of data by Calderone ( Cornell) . It is very extensive and covers numerous questions in my mind. Now I have to read it in detail - 80-100 pages, not easy. 

The primary reason to use the Dyce method is to eliminate yeast or fermentation. That plus colder storage provides a long, viable shelf life. That is one of my goals. I talso provide a data for very fine crystal size creamed honey. My biggest problem is the "rapid cooling" requirement after heating. I have been able to use a simple "cooler" to heat and liquify crystalized honey bottles. Amazing thermal gradient top to bottom, 20F, forced me to use a fan which saves a lot of time. Small batches are much easier but 5 gallons or more is much tougher. It reminds me of when I was 15 (lied about age), working in a chemical plant mixing, heating and cooling 500 gallon chemical batches.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

GG " Just Wondering" - Calerone stated that more than 10:1, meaning 5:1, is a waste of "starter". A catalytic, non-linear result?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Robert Holcombe said:


> GG " Just Wondering" - Calerone stated that more than 10:1, meaning 5:1, is a waste of "starter". A catalytic, non-linear result?


Hi .Robert, in my experience with creaming honey it will still cream with less starter. I dont use the Dyce method, I do follow what Oldtimer does. I use fresh extracted honey, and add the starter with a whisk to blend it through, let it sit about a week and stir a minimum of 2 x a day +. Then jar it. 57* till creams. I like this method because it does a softer set, it doesn’t get hard.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Oldtimer " temperature control," If you pasteurize the honey how do you get the temperature down "quickly to 70F" in any sizable quantities, say 15 gallons in 1 hour? Tube heat exchanger? Other tricks like drain honey through a pipe packed in ice?


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Cloverdale - a workable non-pasteurized method I believe. I would think you would warm it to 120F for 1/2 hour to insure a crsytal free honey before cooling to RT and adding starter crystals. I am learning and playing to understand all the versions for handling honey short and long term. This is in response to some lightly fermented honey caused by crystallization. It amazed me that Fall honey shows no signs of crystallizing but my light colored spring honey does, slowly. I may also try a freezer process for fresh honey, warm it and then freeze it, but have found no clear information on it so far. 

I simply put some fairly finely crystallized,natural honey in a Vitamix. Wow - what a change in texture and taste. It was really surprising. Obviously it air in it but it did not last too long. 

Problems with being too successful caring and "farming" my bees. I accept donations for al lmy honey adn donate it to various environmental and humane charities but I do not want to pass on inferior stuff, even to food banks. I can always turn to Mead making with older stuff. My first impression was "it is good forever - check out the pyramids" - another misleading tale.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Cloverdale said:


> Hi .Robert, in my experience with creaming honey it will still cream with less starter. I dont use the Dyce method, I do follow what Oldtimer does. I use fresh extracted honey, and add the starter with a whisk to blend it through, let it sit about a week and stir a minimum of 2 x a day +. Then jar it. 57* till creams. I like this method because it does a softer set, it doesn’t get hard.


My honey sets up slowly with a quite fine texture. On small batch experiment less than 10% starter does the trick. My sons honey crystallizes quick with large grain and unless you hit it with a fairly high percentage fine grain starter its own crystal identity wins the race.

As crystallization takes place the liquid in the grain boundaries becomes locally less sugar rich. Yeasts have a sugar tolerance limit and can locally become active. That is the reason for bringing the honey up to pasteurization temperatures for foolproof surety against fermentation in the Dyce method. 

A counter flow heat exchanger can get the the temperatures elevated and quickly lowered so that very little darkening or flavor change occurs. Slow heating and returning to room temperature will likely not be a good experience.

My experience with flash heating and cooling for pasteurization was milk related but similar concerns apply with honey qualities.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Help: I have been reading Dyce's testing bulletin and will read it again. I have identified one unresolved question in my mind. After pasteurizing to eliminate yeast and dissolving any crystals in the honey, it is cooled cooling to 70 -75 F (below 90F) to add and mix in 5 -10% "finely crystalized honey" by weight. Lowering the temperature to 57F +/- initiates rapid, 100% crystallization over a 3-4 day period. Crystallization takes up about 9-10% of the 17-18% free water in the honey. What is the remaining free water state? Dispersed like an inverted mix through out the matrix? In interstitial voids? Is this what provides a soft creamed honey versus a hard creamed honey? If not pasteurized does the free water at RT now accelerate fermentation? Store frozen to avoid this?

I know, more than one question.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Robert Holcombe said:


> If not pasteurized does the free water at RT now accelerate fermentation?


Yes. 

_"Granulated honeys ferment more readily than do liquid honeys. When dextrose forms crystals in water solution, the composition of the crystals is that of dextrose hydrate, and the water of crystallization amounts to only 9.09 per cent of the material in solid form. Since the average water content of honey is about 18 percent, this means that, when crystals form, the remaining liquid phase has an increased water content, giving a favorable medium for the growth of yeasts."_ - Elton Dyce, 1931


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I think the bottom line is, if you are going to market creamed honey, you should probably pasteurize it -- unless you do an incredibly good job of educating your customers. If you are making some for your family and friends, I would not bother to pasteurize it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good info in this thread. Just one thing that has only been touched on briefly ( by Robert Holcombe) but is important, most honey types cream best ie finest crystal size) if the creaming process happens at 57 degrees F, or close to that. 

Even if a fine starter is added, but the creaming process is done at too high of a temperature, the honey can end up with a bigger crystal size than the starter honey was. 

Certain honey types naturally cream at a fine grain size even at a warmer temperature, but the majority need the right temperature to get a nice, tiny grained product.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I have been creaming honey for about 4 years, not pasteurizing at all and haven’t had any fermentation issues that I know of. I think it is used up pretty fast.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Cloverdale said:


> I have been creaming honey for about 4 years, not pasteurizing at all and haven’t had any fermentation issues that I know of. I think it is used up pretty fast.


I am sure that fermentation is likely more the exception than the rule. If your honey is on the low side of moisture content all will be well. On the high side may be the risk that pasteurizing eliminates.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Cloverdale " it is used up pretty fast." ----- that is very enjoyable and workable solution. But being a bit older, rapid carbohydrate consumption is not one of my better choices for food supply. One of my "hobbies" is learning to grow, forage or buy food that I can store in various modes as a long term supply; 1 year, 2 years and longer. Jams work, canning veggies works ( Bell jars), selected environments work ( potatoes), pickling I am learning about, frozen is good but not reliable. Year round foraging works; fishing, clamming and hunting if necessary. Then I thought honey was a great addition but crystallization followed by fermentation (when warmed up) showed up. I think I have a handle on it now ( Dyce Fermentation and Crystallization Bulletin, 86 pages, is very informative) except for that one issue - understanding free water. Leaving honey in a hive is also a great storage method - taking what is needed. Pasteurized and creamed honey is a good long term solution if bottled properly, hermetically or vacuum packed ( another issue). That pervasive yeast issue is a tough one when mixed with water plus carbohydrates. Then of course there is an alcohol solution. 

Following the pathways of a drop of water through a hive, in time, is an astounding story. From what I have read, crystallizing honey leaves about 9% free water. Free to do what? Maybe it is not "free".

Post thought: Crystallization with free water is a low energy state. Creamed honey stores well at RT and even better as it gets colder. Warm it ( energy input) up above 90 F (into brood temperature range) and it liquifies again. Yeast becomes very active too but capped honey emulates a hermetic seal, sealing yeast and moisture out. Saving capped honey, even crystallized capped honey, maybe the best, simplest long term storage solution.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I discovered fermentation of creamed honey by accident (not that anyone would do it on purpose). I squirreled away a few jars at the end of a season in the back of the pantry to keep as seed for the next season. I couple of seasons later, I found it. Creamed honey definitely ferments.

Like Frank said, a lot depends on the moisture of the honey you introduce to the seed to start the process. A lot of folks talk of 15% and 16% moisture levels. I have never seen anything that low in my area. I am always on the line of 18%. I am assuming it is due to my humid climate. Those in more arid conditions can probably get away with a lot more. 

I use to never pasteurize my creamed honey because I never made it in any real quantities and always sold it directly. However, I started providing a local farmer's market with it and it has become quite popular. The market is on a major access route to the Florida beaches. I started pasteurizing last year because I did not want fermentation to become a problem for the market or its customers. 

Like all things beekeeping, it is a situational thing.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

psm1212 " I started pasteurizing last year" .

How do you cool the honey rapidly from the pastuerizing temperature? Dyce basically says the faster the better to preserve flavor and "quality" - basically avoiding accelerated aging. I am thinking a stainless steel length of tubing in a cold water bath ( home made) - scrounging / searching.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I stick 2 quarts at a time in the freezer.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Robert Holcombe said:


> psm1212 " I started pasteurizing last year" .
> 
> How do you cool the honey rapidly from the pastuerizing temperature? Dyce basically says the faster the better to preserve flavor and "quality" - basically avoiding accelerated aging. I am thinking a stainless steel length of tubing in a cold water bath ( home made) - scrounging / searching.


Is copper honey safe for short term exposure? It has several time the heat transfer rate as stainless and easier to fabricate.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

crofter "Is copper honey safe for short term exposure?" I have to research that issue. Honey is acidic and I am aware of acidic issues with copper as well as velocity, erosion, issues. Most every article I run across ends up talking about acid resistant stainless steel, 316 or better because of pitting and crevice corrosion issues. Dyce used a glass lined, double walled reactor tank for the initial test efforts. I need to jury rig something equivalent for smaller quantities. 

When I have a solution I will post it. 

In copper tube case, my guess, it would be low levels of contamination with copper and not worrying about perforating the pipe. I think glass is also a candidate - maybe aluminum. I am collecting ideas and will evaluate. 316 St. St is the quick easy answer for now. I think temperature differential, flowing cold water, and honey velocity (stirring) and viscosity will dominate the rate of heat transfer in the end. Normally a double wall or jacket tank using street or well water would seem practical. I have a St. St. ( 300 series) tank with a built in bottom water chamber and heater built in and stirrer ( inadequate I think) but no specific cooling system. Intuition says it will not be "fast"cooling but I am going to test it with water first. Honey will take longer to cool - proper stirring is required. 

I am sure the factory guys have a unique tank and stirrer designs. Dyce wanted the honey cooled to 75F in about 90 minutes or less as a definition of fast cooling with no air introduced.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I am sure that jacketed or siamese stainless tubing would be the way to go for both heating and cooling, in fact this could be a continuous flow as in some milk handling scenarios. Holding time measure in seconds! The big actors can ammortise the costs, but it would be nice if we could come up with something the hobbyist or sideliner could use for, say, a hundred pounds a season to be creamed. Some that are heavy on canola forage might want to do their entire production.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

crofter "it would be nice if we could come up with something the hobbyist or sideliner could use" 

That is my goal. I am looking to able have long term storage, say 5 years, with quality and without a power source. 

One problem with using concentric cooler tubes or even just tubes is hte behavior of honey. When going from hot to cold the viscosity changes quickly and the honey thickens on the side walls where it is cold, This insulates the rest of the honey and slows up the cooling rate. It needs to be "scraped off" or removed by stirring and mixed in. This is also why honey frames on the outside of the winter cluster act like insulation. The oil industry send "pigs" down the pipelines to clean the sludge off to increase flow rates. Being able to "scrape" or remove what is called the boundary layer of thick honey while cooling is the primary issue - I think. While getting a somewhat uniform temperature in the mix, say plus or minus 5F, is another requirement.

I worked in a chemical plant while in high school - got away with being too young for 3 months before they caught-on but my birthday was in a week. I use to mix 500 gallon chemical batches in a double jacket stainless steel vat. I could apply steam, hot water and cold water through the jacket to control the temperature of the batch. Now I understand a lot more about physics and using that experience to make creamed honey gives me some small batch ideas


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Robert Holcombe said:


> crofter "it would be nice if we could come up with something the hobbyist or sideliner could use"
> 
> That is my goal. I am looking to able have long term storage, say 5 years, with quality and without a power source.
> 
> ...


When you get into travelling wall scrapers it immediately gets out of the realm of hobby process controls! For cooling a flat pan that sits in a larger pan of iced water might be as effective as necessary.

An old beat up but functional deep freeze can be had cheap and an inline temperature controlled power supply can be had which will give you the 70 deg F innoculating temp. or the 57 F holding temp. Those items have been part of my meditation on creaming honey. Very likely as far as it will get though.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

corfter "An old beat up but functional deep freeze " --- that has been on mind too. Even a little specific heat / pre-chill then add warm honey to the pan. But then back to seeding, mixing bottling or canning issues / handling. I have acquired two refrigerators with freezers and an old beat up freezer for my honey frames, like to scrounge and recycle. I am thinking of building my own temperature & RH controlled chamber. I have been using a Variac, cartridge heater and fan in a cheap cooler . Could one adapt a kitchen mixer sitting in a tub with ice water - 1 gallon at a time - maybe. Ruby! Where are you?


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

crofter & psm1212 "Honey Creamer tool " & "When you get into travelling wall scrapers it immediately gets out of the realm of hobby process controls!"

What about an ice cream maker? Manual or elctric drive will work  Check out Immergood ( AMish) as the WHite Mountain Ice Cream CO., here in RI, is apparently having problems with supply / COVID-19 - problem unknown.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Robert Holcombe said:


> crofter & psm1212 "Honey Creamer tool " & "When you get into travelling wall scrapers it immediately gets out of the realm of hobby process controls!"
> 
> What about an ice cream maker? Manual or elctric drive will work  Check out Immergood ( AMish) as the WHite Mountain Ice Cream CO., here in RI, is apparently having problems with supply / COVID-19 - problem unknown.


Would the honey be too thick for the ICE cream maker. worth a try, if buying I may pick the manual, and try small batches, Seems to me the honey would kill the motor.

GG


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

GG " Seems to me the honey would kill the motor." That is a major consideration but manageable I am guessing. My first goal is to cool honey form 145F to 75 F to add "seed". The issue to be solved here it s the formation of a thick boundary layer of viscous honey on the cold wall - same problem in ice cream making. Ice cream makers have a scraper stirrer design and counter rotating designs. Plus it is a simple setup for small quantities. So heating will be easy, cooling the liquid to 75F without adding a lot of air appears very doable, adding seed and mixing is easy - no salt needed, just some ice. 

Now the question is while holding the liquid at 57F +/- can we continue to stir until crystalized in the bucket to make a softer crystalized honey liek soft butter, or the motor's thermal swtich cuts in and shuts off the motor. The "good" motors are 12000RPM and geared down but do die. A technical issue that can be solved, hydraulic motor, DC motor - it is a torque and windings cooling issue.

If left in the bucket we need to scoop it out to pack it - maybe extrude it. I think cooling it to 75 , adding seed crystals and bottling it and then storing at 57F for 4 to xx days is the easier way for now. If a softer creamed honey is created as expected with constant, slow stirring then hand packing works for me. More discussion needed? I am big on trial and error to learn.

Having a good, large opening bottle with a hermetic seal is an issue. Got ideas? I am thinking Bell jars.

Just had another idea - timed - pulse stirring which will reduce the heating load on the motor.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Bread makers have the speed and torque that might lend itself to power stirring of honey. Their drive system coupling method would lend itself to powering scraper/ paddles. I have a Kuradori that gets used hundreds of times a year. 

I dont know how hard it would be to get into its programming but I am sure there would be a way to pick its brain or bypass it. I believe its drive system uses a cogged belt and those belts and sprockets are shelf available in wide range of lengths and tooth count. Silicone kitchen tools could be repurposed for scraping paddles similar to a mortar mixer configuration.

The kitchen aid mixer would could also be harnessed in some fashion too.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

cooling just wait a day it will cool 
extrude interesting, I intend to just scoop and pack , but I am doing a couple gallons.
I may try to find a plastic or stainless paint stirrer, for my drill.
The stir till crystalized could be a while , weeks, I think stir well package store in the cool place.

So give it a try and let us know how it goes, Mine will have a twist, "flavored" with something....

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Not sure if I read something to this affect or it is just my mental meandering, but I think there may be something about stirring as the crystallization progresses to prevent the process becoming waves that push the rejected water ahead of it instead of being micro mixed. There have been quite a few threads about white streaks occurring in honey that crystallizes without agitation. My bet is that if you spot analyzed those areas you would find moisture level transients. If evenly dispersed throughout the product, the spot discrepancies in moisture levels may remain tolerable.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Some of honeys naturally thicken to the creamed honey state.
Here is one such jar - just like soft butter.
Delicious.
Maybe I will go and get another spoon.








Yes, I recycle a lot of jars.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Robert Holcombe said:


> What about an ice cream maker?


Dyce used an ice-cream freezer to test the theory that paddles slowly scraping the sides of a jacketed tank would cool honey more quickly. A gallon of honey was heated to 150F and placed in the ice cream freezer packed with ice and salt and turned at 35 rpm for 5 minutes. Honey temperature dropped from 150F to 70F. He then repeated the test, but removed the paddles from the machine which scrapped the inside walls of the churn. He turned the the churn for 5 minutes and the honey dropped from 150F to 100F. For his third test, he removed the ice and salt and ran the test pouring 52F water into the barrel that contained the freezer and turned it with no paddles for 5 minutes. This resulted in dropping the temp from 150F to 110F. The last test was identical to the third test, except the paddles were reinstalled. This dropped the temp from 150F to 72F.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Robert Holcombe said:


> Having a good, large opening bottle with a hermetic seal is an issue. Got ideas? I am thinking Bell jars.


_In no case did the samples closed by vacuum excel the hermetically sealed samples in keeping quality, but honey sealed by both these methods
excelled the samples placed in glass containers and in friction-top tins. It is therefore desirable to place honey in air-tight containers. Since
the vacuum seal is more costly than the hermetic seal, it is desirable to choose the latter method for packing honey._ - Elton J. Dyce


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