# Prices of Queen



## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I just got my first queen shippment of the year, and the bill as wow!! I was paying $12.75 each last year and the bill I got today was $15.00 each. I've been with this producer for over 16 years. I've tried others producers but haven't found anyone yet with that good of queens. I only get a 2% dronelayer or nonelaying queen with this supplier. What is a guy to do. Each year I need more and more queens and year the price keeps jumping up. Where do I go to get good queens for a reasonable price.
Or should I just forget it and suck it up. :lpf:

Is this the way business is ran. The producer place the price on the product and the buyer pays it. Well, if this is so the packer better watch out next spring. :applause:

Well another day another $1000 spent. Tomorrow has to be better. What good is money if you don't spend it.opcorn:

Ron


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*High Quality*

Always the best deal in the long run.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Each year I need more and more queens and year the price keeps jumping up. Where do I go to get good queens for a reasonable price._

Breed your own to control your input costs?

_Well another day another $1000 spent. Tomorrow has to be better. What good is money if you don't spend it._

But hopefully we all spend our money wisely. Ohio does have a queen breeder program. Have you considered taking that $1000 and finding a local beekeeper who is interested in queen breeding? Find someone who wants to try breeding, and has a good head on their shoulders, but maybe can't afford to get into queen breeding very serious - you might be able to help provide a little financing, and they could give you a price break on queens. You might be able to partner up with someone, and you could both benefit.

When life hands you lemons, make lemonade.


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Householder, are you not the beek that destroys your bees every year? Why are you buying queens? Do you not buy packages or do you have another outlet for bees?

Just curious?


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

uhhh... at a level of 2% drone layer and $15/queen, mind sharing the name of your queen supplier?

undoubtly the game 'in regards to how price is set' is played much as honeyhouseholder suggest. undoubtly the most constant gripe in the old bee magazine pile I have (dating back to the 70's) is the constant whinning about the 'high cost of queens'.

I do pay a good bit more for queens than honeyhouseholder does... but then I do like to drive a mercedez benz... but then I do like being a bit off the blocks a bit ahead of everyone else.


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

I just started using a queen breeder that catches queens after 3 weeks so he can judge the brood pattern. The queens look great so far ,and they only cost $12.50 each. If you are interested PM me and I will give you his info.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Bizzybee said:


> Householder, are you not the beek that destroys your bees every year? Why are you buying queens? Do you not buy packages or do you have another outlet for bees?
> 
> Just curious?


Yes, I'm the one that doesn't winter my bees. I started spliting my packages yesterday. I bought 650 2# packages on 3-21-09 and I split and shake packages from them. I use 250-300 queens for just splits and packages on top the all the queen that I buy in my packages. With that kind of queen buying I feel I should get a better deal.

With prices of bees and queens keep jumping up each year. I just might have to buy a place in the south to just sale bees. Heck with all this honey in the north.:lookout:


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Costs and input are a major concern regardless of what business you are in. However, I am baffled when beekeepers think the cost of queens is too high yet want better quality, and not to mention the queen is the foundation of every colony. It really does take a great deal of input to produce high quality queens. If you ever get the change to go visit a commercial queen producer it is well worth the time. The cost of production is not simply the time spent raising each queen, but the overhead behind the production process, all of the support colonies, labor and disasters that can and do occur in the field. Many of the input costs for the producer have really increased in the past couple of years, and most cannot absorb those costs for very long. 

If you really stop and crunch the numbers, I think you will find that paying a little more for good quality queens will pay greater rewards.

Just my 2 cents...

Joe


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Check into the Ohio Queen Project.

http://www.ohiostatebeekeepers.org/Ohio Queen Project/ohioqueenproject.html

You may be able to partner up with someone interested in breeding good queens. You give them an outlet to sell to, and they supply you with queens. Win/win for both of you.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

The Honey Householder said:


> the bill I got today was $15.00 each. Ron


Cells are running $3-4 piece, yes, I would say $ 15 is not a good buy, I would go with cells.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Buying queens is like buying hay... always cheaper on the the other side of the horse. 

In all seriousness, in relative price terms adjusted for inflation queens are cheaper now than they were in the 70's.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

the problem is that tyhe prices keep going up and the quality (of most) are going down.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

queens here are $17- $20 a piece + shipping.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Quality queens*

Actually the quality is AT LEAST as good as it as ever been. Chef Isaac, what are you basing your statement on? There are queen breeding and raising operations not far from you in Calif that are as good or better than any in the world. You could not produce the quality they can, nor could many others!

How many years of observation is your opinion based on?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Missplaced values.*

:scratch: Crome wheel rims.
 Can't afford quaility queens.
Ernie


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Always*

Better if you can blame it on someone else, No?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Chef Isaac said:


> the problem is that tyhe prices keep going up and the quality (of most) are going down.


I know this is a flash point for you chef, due to recent bad experiences, but you must admit it is very limited experience.
One of the reasons for high prices is the risks of queen rearing and the chances of things happening beyond the queen producers control like weather, working against them. It is risky enough business making them for oneself but to be making tens of thousands for sale is an undertaking that I can appreciate because we produce our own queens here once the weather warms sufficiently and know how time consuming and detail oriented it needs to be. There is so much that can go wrong.

We have tried "cheap" queens, which didn't prove too cheap once you realize it took 1 1/2 - 2 queens to make a good split.
Consistent quality costs money. There have been times in the past few years where weather and demand made supply tight and some queen shippers might have pushed their picking a bit, but in general we have found it is worth it to pay the higher prices demanded for excellent quality, service and knowing you will have your queens when you need them. We have found the quality absolutely top notch this year, from all 4 of the different producers we dealt with, well worth the money. But we still make as many as is practical here in the summer, to help with costs.
Sheri


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## greenbeekeeping (Feb 13, 2003)

I paid $10 each for queens last year and got 300 of them. By fall I would say I replaced over half of them with cells. Most of the rest turned drone layer in late august. I won't buy cheap queens again. Actually If I ever get to have it my way well migrate south and raise all our own. Someday!

Matt


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

*$7.50 Queens circa 1975*

"What cost $7.50 in 1975 would cost $29.69 in 2008.
Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2008 and 1975,
they would cost you $7.5 and $1.80 respectively." from: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi

The basic techniques haven't changed much since then but what a dollar buys sure has. The conditions surrounding beekeeping now compared to when queens were "cheap" are a lot more challenging.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Consumer mentality*

Is what always gets me: I PAID FOR 10 QUEENS yada yada....

I can't imagine what people like JBJ have top put up with...


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I should have prefaced my statement with "in my opinion"

I would like to see more evaluation of the queens in the mating nucs before just selling them off. For example, John does a great job at evaluation and so does Velbert and Bush and Palmer. 

When I was in Cali, I did get to go out and pick queens with the folks who do it for a living. No one went through the mating nucs to see the laying pattern. They just picked the queen and off she went. 

And they charge the same price or more for those queens. And the price keeps going up. 

But this is only my opinion. Everyone has something they look for. For me, I like to know someone evaluated the laying pattern.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Everyone should give queen rearing a try at least once. 
It's a very humbling experience.
I am aslo interested in the 2% losses at $15 sounds like a quality queen breeder providing a quality product.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I can verify what Sherri has stated. Upon inspection of 5 of her packages, all of the queens had good solid brood patterns. The only complaint was that the smoker almost went out from lack of use. Yes, It pays to do it right the first time.


Roland


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I would agree it is a humbling experiance. Hard to do.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Because the queen is the colony the quality of the queen you get is much more important that what you payed for. A cheap queen is not that cheep if that queen does not perform.



Gilman


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Here's a question for you all.

If given a chance, would you buy cells at $3-4 or buy mated queens at 14-18 ? And why would you buy one over the other?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Here's a question for you all.*

Kieth,
I have the answers to your question. 
But, it's not fair for me to give them out as I sell queens and queen cells!
Ernie


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

well my 2 cents worth. I think QUEENS should be higher priced.Seems too me to keep up with supply and demand.no im a hobbiest not a breeder..or seller


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

both would seem to be a gamble. Queens cells need to be mated. Queenns that are mated and sold are being assumed they lay nicely. 

All said and done, I would go with the queen cells as they can mate with your local stock.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Here's a question for you all.
> 
> If given a chance, would you buy cells at $3-4 or buy mated queens at 14-18 ? And why would you buy one over the other?


When you install cells, what % take do you get? Sometimes it's 80%, but sometimes it's 40.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> When you install cells, what % take do you get? Sometimes it's 80%, but sometimes it's 40.


Most of the time it's 80% plus, I don't go for the early ones, I hold back till the weather is warmer.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

I would bet that at the end of the season, my cell % take is the same as the mated queen % take.The only difference is the twenty five thousand is still in my pocket.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*my cell % take is the same as the mated queen % take*

Using queen cells can have an acceptance rate of 90+%. 
If, you do it correctly?
Ernie


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Thanks for the kind words, Roland. Now lets just hope those girls make some honey. That is, if it ever warms up enough.......

_Cells or mated queens?_
Keith, up here in the north country, (you California beeks have heard rumors of snow and below freezing temps in April, right? ) when we need spring queens it is too early for the cells to mate, and once it is warm enough for mating we make our own. When we went to TX we sometimes bought cells but usually made our own down there as well. We have thought about setting up somewhere in either California (you got plenty of room for more bees, right?) or somewhere on the southern tier for making the spring queens, it would save us pretty good bucks, we have spent over $12K on queens so far this year.  that is about $9000 more than the cells would have cost, but there are headaches with cells as well and the timing just doesn't work for us. A good store bought queen up here in early April is definitely the way to go.
If we were further south and/or didn't run enough to justify the queen rearing we would more seriously consider cells.
Sheri


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Using queen cells*

There are some of us that use the cells as a forced supercedure of the old queen.
You can place a queen cell into a "problem" hive and turn it into a productive hive.

I like to use my Cordovan breeder queen as a gentic marker for any problem hives.
Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well said Sheri,

My post started off with "if given a chance" if you want a early start mated queens sometimes is more cost effective.

Although, I would not buy a mated queen until after the 20th of april. I shake thousands of pounds of bulk bees for N.Calif queen breeders, I see first hand what goes in & comes out here.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Although, I would not buy a mated queen until after the 20th of april. I shake thousands of pounds of bulk bees for N.Calif queen breeders, I see first hand what goes in & comes out here.


Yikes, we bought 300 before the 20th, 100 shipped the 1st, 200 shipped the 8th. But Keith, if your bees were in there, they gotta be good.  So far, we have been very pleased with those queens, only 1 out of all 300 been bad, again, so far, 2-3 dead in the cage. The thing is, we NEED queens the first of April and I hate to leave everything to the FL queens, like to spread the risk around, lol. 
Seriously tho Keith, are you implying they don't have the bee resources to put out early queens? We always buy early queens from up there and have rarely had problems, only when the weather was iffy.
Sheri


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Cells are great if you have time and good weather.
Right now I am sitting here watching it rain while i should be out making nucs for cells that are going to hatch Tues. The guy I am making them for wanted to wait for good weather ha ha. We should have made them last week but the cells won't hatch tell Tues. Just a timing issue. Cells are not quite as convenient as mated queens.
However a queen raised from a cell during good weather is probably superiour to a queen that is caged and shipped across the country.
We have had wrecks and success with both and when its all said and done I don't think the price differance is as substantial as one would think.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Seriously tho Keith, are you implying they don't have the bee resources to put out early queens? We always buy early queens from up there and have rarely had problems, only when the weather was iffy.
> Sheri


Sheri,
What I am implying is:

What are the odds of having good mating wheather, last week in march OR the second week of april ?

What are the odds of having plenty of drones, last week of march OR the second week of april ?

A top queen reseacher said, She believes that it is more important to have a diversed drone pool than it is to have a perfect raised queen cell.

So, ask yourself, when are the drones at there peek? I can tell you this, it isn't the first part of april.

And also, ask yourself in Jan how's your D/O rates? THAT is what's important.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I guess I have been putting all my eggs in one basket for to many years when it comes to buying my queens. 
The problem is I thought by buying all my queens and packages from the same producer, that my supplies would not run my price up as fast as smaller buyers.
There has to be to big of a demand for queens from my producer to not still take care of those that have been paying the bills over the last 16 years. I guess I need to up my prices on my product to offset my added expenses. Or just say I losted my job and give the new truck back.:lpf:

How do I tell my packer I'm increasing my price 15% this year.:shhhh: Well the cat is out of the bag now.:doh: 

Ron


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*Lets complain about the weather!*

Buying cells and raising queens is nice, but I sure do appreciate being able to pick up the phone and have Queens magically appear on my doorstep.
I have no complaints about price or quality.
Now the weather; thats a different story...


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

The Honey Householder said:


> I guess I have been putting all my eggs in one basket for to many years when it comes to buying my queens.


Yeah, that is a scary thing, especially when one part of the country might be much better in any particular year than another. We booked early queens this year from CA, TX and FL, we would have booked from ME and WA but they tell me it is a tad cold up there in April.



The Honey Householder said:


> There has to be to big of a demand for queens from my producer to not still take care of those that have been paying the bills over the last 16 years.


Remember, his expenses went up too. He maybe should have raised prices a couple years ago already.



The Honey Householder said:


> How do I tell my packer I'm increasing my price 15% this year.:shhhh: Well the cat is out of the bag now.:doh: Ron


Yeah, let us know how that works out. Remember, if he won't pay it, someone else will.....or maybe not.
Sheri


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

The Honey Householder said:


> I guess I have been putting all my eggs in one basket for to many years when it comes to buying my queens.
> The problem is I thought by buying all my queens and packages from the same producer, that my supplies would not run my price up as fast as smaller buyers.
> There has to be to big of a demand for queens from my producer to not still take care of those that have been paying the bills over the last 16 years. I guess I need to up my prices on my product to offset my added expenses. Or just say I losted my job and give the new truck back.:lpf:
> 
> ...


When we can't increase our prices to match the increase inputs that we are paying, we have to get creative and find ways to decrease our inputs or find other avenues where we can add value to our product.
One of the creative ways we decreased inputs with the cows was...
...when feeding hubby would make 4-10 trips to the hay yard to get bales to feed the cows. When we feed every other day that is alot of trips and extra time the tractor ran. So he started taking the hay wagon out there and hauled 5 bales at a time. This cut fuel, oil, and running time on the tractor. You would be surprised how that added up. The trick is to get creative. Pennies here and there add up.
Never cut on herd/apiary health but find creative ways.
Some creative ways to cut in a ag business whether it be cows or bees, culling rather than excessive treating to get an animal or hive healthy and productive...usually never pays.
Selling nucs or hives in the fall or spring, farm gate sales where you can set your honey price. I'm sure you have other creative ideas to cut or minimize inputs or ways to add value to your product you sell.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_The problem is I thought by buying all my queens and packages from the same producer, that my supplies would not run my price up as fast as smaller buyers.
There has to be to big of a demand for queens from my producer to not still take care of those that have been paying the bills over the last 16 years. _

You get what you pay for. I'm sure there are queen producers who would sell you queens for $10. (Then again, maybe you want cheap [junk] queens to put in the packages you sell.)

I guess I don't understand the crybaby approach to input costs. Personally, in ANY of my business ventures, I have NEVER cared how much something costs. I DO NOT want to save money - because you can't save your way into having a fortune. You must first earn your fortune before you have anything to save.

I want to MAKE money. I don't care what something costs - I care about how much money it will make me, and how long it will take to get that return.

How hard is it to recoup the $3 difference between a $12 and a $15 queen? 2 pounds of honey. That's it! A good queen can pay for herself in a hurry - but good queens are not the cheapest queen you can get.

You would think that someone who claims to make a very good living with bees would understand economic concepts like this. Garbage in - garbage out. Quality in - quality out.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Countryboy said:


> _
> Personally, in ANY of my business ventures, I have NEVER cared how much something costs. I DO NOT want to save money - because you can't save your way into having a fortune. You must first earn your fortune before you have anything to save._


_

In any business the difference between what something costs and what you can sell it for (minus other expenses of course) is the profit. You can raise your prices to raise your profit and/or you can lower costs. To say you don't care how much something costs is ignoring half the equation. Widening your margin is the ultimate goal. 
It is not being a "crybaby" to wonder how to control costs of what is basically a commodity. Anyone who wants to stay in business better have an eye on their costs.
Sheri_


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Some people say it takes spending money to make money. True in case but there comes a time where one needs to take a different approach. 

A couple of years ago, I helped a few peole open up some restaurants. Two owners have never been in the food industry and one hting they had a hard time with was the fact that prices change on our end so therefor prices must change on the consumer end. One of the owners took the advice and went with it. When wild salmon went up in price, the menu changed. Matter of fact, we went to a weekly menu that changed all the time. This was a great way to be able to stay curent with pricing. Things like asparagus, seafood, meat, etc change daily. 

The other owner did not take this advice. He did not want to raise his prices because in his mind, he didnt want to deal with pissed off customers so he would be serving asparagus in the middle of winter that was $5.10 a pound where, in the spring and early summer, asparagus goes for about 1.50 a pound. So he would serve the asparagus in the winter time and not change the price to reflect the price of the vegetable price increase. Needless to say, he closed his doors 4 months later. 

The other owner, just last month, opened up his second restaraunt and is still doing the same concept. 

We all know prices will go up on everything. If you think, for example, packaged bees are going to go down in price, it will never happen. The end consumer also udnerstands that even though we all complain about the cost of seafood, beef, etc. But it is all passed down. The best way, and this is only my opinion, is to cut out the middle man.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well Sheri,

I couldn't have said it any better. But, can I still sell him some sub @ $10.00 lb.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_You can raise your prices to raise your profit and/or you can lower costs. To say you don't care how much something costs is ignoring half the equation. Widening your margin is the ultimate goal. _

Bingo. You have to look at ALL sides of the equation. Input costs alone are not enough to make a good business decision.

But you forgot the 3rd option for increasing profits. You can increase yield. You can have the same selling price, the same input costs, and more profits simply by increasing yield.

In agriculture, better management results in increased yields.

This reminds me of an old farmer I know who 'would not waste his money' on soybean seed innoculant that costs $4 an acre. Yet, he could not understand how his son could grow soybeans in the field across the road, and have 3-5 bushels per acre more yield. Same seed variety, same weather, same soil, same chemical package....the only difference was the son would 'waste' his money on that $4 innoculant.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Countryboy;420988But you forgot the 3rd option for increasing profits. You can increase yield. You can have the same selling price said:


> Yep, it's time to tell queeny to throttle up the waszoo.  lol


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

LOL Keith. 

That's what your $10 sub is for.

Or are you going to tell me that not all queens are created equal?

I've been around grain farmers my whole life. Yield is a VERY big factor to them, because that is the easiest way of increasing their profits...higher yields. Yet, I am surprised in reading this commercial forum how little importance many seem to place on yield. They will worry about a nickel movement ($7.50 on 150 pounds), but they don't seem to be looking for ways to increase yield by 5 pounds ($7.50 @ $1.50 a pound). 

My perception is that many folks worry about inputs and selling price, and just accept whatever yield they can get. Swarm prevention and pollen patties seem to be the most common (or only) yield increasing management strategies.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Increasing yield is a good idea, but sometimes yield can only go so far. Inputs need to be kept in check so that you have the $ to increase yield. Increasing yield costs $ and if your inputs are too high, you will not have the $ to increase the yield.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Here's a question for you all.
> 
> If given a chance, would you buy cells at $3-4 or buy mated queens at 14-18 ? And why would you buy one over the other?



Mated queens in WI( after almonds) in april for replacing dead outs(12% of 816 QL,DL or just empty this year) for honey producers. Also used for making colonies(brood makers not honey producers) to make increase hives out of. Smaller colonies are much easier to find queens in and tolerate excluders better (keeping them in 1 deep). From those brood is put in 5 frame nucs for cells arriving late may and early june from FL. This years mated queens @ 90% acceptance of 150( 6 bad my fault). Last years May cells (shipped from FL)were +/- 80%.

Mated Queens if you want to make honey. Cells when weather is right and you just want extra colonies or mid summer replacements.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Here's a question for you all.
> 
> If given a chance, would you buy cells at $3-4 or buy mated queens at 14-18 ? And why would you buy one over the other?


You also have the issue of genetics... you are getting one side of the equation with cells. By purchasing laying queens you are getting drone semen from the breeder colonies and their surrounding apiaries' genetics. One thing you are expecting from a queen breeder is them applying careful/stringent attention to drone mother colonies and saturating the area with selected drone mothers. (Understanding that they are still open-mated.) Cells on the other hand will require drone semen from your colonies or surrounding apiaries. Are queen cell buyers making an effort at selecting *quality* drone mother colonies to use in saturating an area with these high quality traits from the drone side? That is something only they can answer. If a beekeeper is happy with their current drone population and the quality then cells may make sense for them in some cases. 

Another issue is this: If a beekeeper is hoping to make splits in early spring and get a honey crop and/or sell nucs with laying queens then a cell instead of a laying queen may put you behind the curve. Part of the issue is also about what one is looking to accomplish and what they have to start with.

There is one answer fits all.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*queen prices*

The old beekeeping rule of thumb is early spring queens = 1 lb. of bees = 10 pounds of honey. Seems we are still in that same range. Does a higher price equate to higher quality? I don't think there is any simple answer to that, I will say that there is nothing like good mating conditions to raise good well mated queens so that is the first variable. Ample available drones is certainly part of the equation but assuming only your nearby hives are getting all the matings flies in the face of most of the research I have read about DCA's attracting drones from a very large area.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> Ample available drones is certainly part of the equation but assuming only your nearby hives are getting all the matings flies in the face of most of the research I have read about DCA's attracting drones from a very large area.


Well said Jim,

I run 1200 hive for drones then put the increase in between them for about a two mile stretch. Drones are a highly important part.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

The person who started this thread kills off his bees every year. He doesn't have a drone pool to start with let alone a quality drone pool. What good will cells do for him? That was partly why I went down that road.

Sure drones are extremely important... However, how many beekeepers that use cells are selecting drone stock to use for saturation or are they just using whatever they have in their colonies? It is important to attempt to saturate the breeding area with large numbers of diverse drones from selected quality stock. And no not all the drones that mate with your queen will likely be of the selected stock nor from your own apiary.

Of course the DCA's can attract drones from larger sources than just your own apiaries but you CAN do some things to attempt to influence the stock. I certainly never implied that only your nearby hives will get most of the matings. I've talked to several breeders that offer free queens to the other apiaries in the vicinity of their breeding yards in an attempt to influence the genetics in a larger area with their prefered stock. That is just one method a breeder may use to help the process.

There is nothing wrong with using your 1200 colonies (or whatever you have) plus any other genetics in the area as drone sources especially if you are happy with what you have. Its just that what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for everyone. Maybe the beekeeper 20mi down the road isn't happy with the stock he's running (ie extremely susceptible to foulbrood, chalk, nosema or whatever etc...) and wants to try something new..... If he doesn't bring in different stock altogether using mated queens then he's mating these new queens from the cells with at least some drones of stock he's trying to eliminate.

I use cells alot and think it can be a great asset but if your goal is something different it isn't necessarily the answer.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

> The person who started this thread kills off his bees every year


Hey Dan I want to know where he gets a 2# package that he can split in 3 weeks:lookout:


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

*Billing done right.*

Who splits 2# packages in 3 weeks. The packages was shaken in on 3-21 and this is 5-5. No just spliting but shaking packages now too. Who need drone pool when you are buying breed queens. 
This tread worked out great, got reduced billing in the mial today. Sometime you have to b---h a little to get your point across.:no:

Ron


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*However, how many beekeepers that use cells*

There are a lot of good beekeepers that provide the drones for breeding the queen cells that they make or purchase.
Ernie


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

mr jarrett writes:
I run 1200 hive for drones

tecumseh:
I noticed you did not call these drone mother hives? if that means what it means to me, this would suggest your next sentence is wishful thinking.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

tecumseh said:


> mr jarrett writes:
> I noticed you did not call these drone mother hives? if that means what it means to me, this would suggest your next sentence is wishful thinking.


The only thing that is wishful thinking is, that all these queens that are being bought are being mated from drone mother hives.

Just got back from Dandant chico, some of you should take a drive through that part of the county during queen time.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Big "T",

the only thing that is not wishful thinking is....

3-5% loss rate & 10 avg in the almonds. That is not wishful thinking. lol


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

keith writes:
3-5% loss rate & 10 avg in the almonds. That is not wishful thinking.

tecumseh:
what I was suggesting in my prior post keith was that often time the language gets a bit confusing and somefolks might think (incorrectly I might add) that a drone producing hive and a drone mother hive is one and the same thing. I think perhaps I know what you were suggesting in the prior comment concerning drone hives (maybe).

with out a doubt your results (stated) are to be commended... it should be pointed out that on MANY OCCASIONS in the beekeeping world average does necessarily mean average of a population but an average calculated from a portion or fragment of a population. a bit more robust number (for either 'populations') might be the addition of standard deviation estimate to provide folks with a better feel for variation around 'the average'.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well said Big T,

I think there is way too much fluff on this "mother drone hives". I do just fine with PLENTY of good strong regular hives for mating. 

I can do fine without all the fluff, that dam fluff factor.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

mother drone hive fluff, yea that the ticket.

I read where one of those 'science type persons' estimated how many 'drone mother hives' were required to saturate an area with drones for a large queen rearing operation. the number equated to an undoable task. for myself (beyond my own little efforts in selecting for drone mother hives) I somewhat to highly rely on my good neighbors bring in lots of excellent, resistant, honey collecting hives in large number and setting them about me in almost every direction. works for me....


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

The Honey Householder said:


> Yes, I'm the one that doesn't winter my bees. I started spliting my packages yesterday. I bought 650 2# packages on 3-21-09 and I split and shake packages from them. I use 250-300 queens for just splits and packages on top the all the queen that I buy in my packages. With that kind of queen buying I feel I should get a better deal.
> 
> With prices of bees and queens keep jumping up each year. I just might have to buy a place in the south to just sale bees. Heck with all this honey in the north.:lookout:


so let me get this straight, you let all your hives die off, then buy 2 lb packages and split them into 1 lb packages with a new extra queen?? 

Why? must be polination as I would suspect getting much honey off that small a hive would be unlikely??


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

gmcharlie said:


> so let me get this straight, you let all your hives die off, then buy 2 lb packages and split them into 1 lb packages with a new extra queen??
> 
> Why? must be polination as I would suspect getting much honey off that small a hive would be unlikely??


No, I'm making splits and shaking packages from the packages or hives I start back in late March. I already have a full box of bees and still have 7 weeks until the main honey flow. 

My APH last year was 165 lb. Not bad with starting with 2# packages. I had 12 splits last year that produce 43 boxes of comb honey. Honey making is almost all in the queen. You have to have a queen that can produce a alot of bees when you need them.

Ron


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

hmm okay must have misread that. 

if you are raising and makeing splits, why aren't you raising your own queens? at 15.00 each it would pay, you can raise 30 queens with about 4 hours work..... probably less time if you have a big surplus of bees and set up a queen area...... most of that time is spent setting up the mateing nucs....


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

gmcharlie:

The man is probably working 60 plus hours a week. He's averaging a reasonable amount of honey. He's selling some bees probably at a slightly better price than what he paid for them. This is a time when somebody is willing to give him 50-60 dollars for a package (I'm guessing). but he needs a queen. He doesn't need more work he needs a queen so he can get the $60. If he runs into a spell of bad weather he doen not have queens to sell packages. So being the sharp business man that he is, he shells out the $15 knowing that he can get $60 for his package after some effort. He does that way because it works and it is relatively predictable.

Philisophically and spiritually speaking I don't like the system because he depopulates in the fall. From a business point of view it's a great system. No overwintering hassles and losses. High school kids with a little training can help dump the packages. It's the best return of honey per hour of labour. No old queens. Hunting and fishing in the fall if you are into that kind of thing. Mexico in the winter, I personally prefer Brazil but that's another story for another day.

Jean-Marc


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jean-marc said:


> Mexico in the winter, I personally prefer Brazil but that's another story for another day.
> Jean-Marc



Jean-Marc,

Now that's the best line I've heard in a long time on this thread.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Keith:

All you gotta do is go to Brazil and you'll understand. No word of a lie.

Jean-Marc


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jean-marc said:


> Keith:
> 
> All you gotta do is go to Brazil and you'll understand. No word of a lie.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Jean-Marc, I think you may have misunderstood me, I said line, as in, that's the smartest thing I've seen on this thread in a long time,


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

tahiti ain't got nothin' on rio.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

jean-marc said:


> gmcharlie:
> 
> The man is probably working 60 plus hours a week. He's averaging a reasonable amount of honey. He's selling some bees probably at a slightly better price than what he paid for them. This is a time when somebody is willing to give him 50-60 dollars for a package (I'm guessing). but he needs a queen. He doesn't need more work he needs a queen so he can get the $60. If he runs into a spell of bad weather he doen not have queens to sell packages. So being the sharp business man that he is, he shells out the $15 knowing that he can get $60 for his package after some effort. He does that way because it works and it is relatively predictable.
> 
> ...


okay, but he replied he shook them out of his hives after 5 weeks??? not possible as far as I know.... a 3 lb package doesn't double in that time, even with great queens not in a new hive..... ?? so how can you have a surplus of bees in 5 weeks?? and what do you do with them in the winter???


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

jean- marc
You got it and understand the time and money deal. 3# packages for $75, OK I have to spend a little to make a little. Most people only see the end product and can't see all the work that goes in to it.:scratch:
Ron


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

gmcharlie said:


> okay, but he replied he shook them out of his hives after 5 weeks??? not possible as far as I know.... a 3 lb package doesn't double in that time, even with great queens not in a new hive..... ?? so how can you have a surplus of bees in 5 weeks?? and what do you do with them in the winter???


Ok by not bring the bees through winter I have all winter to get my hive bodies cleaned up. I sprayed frames full of syrup and reset boxes so the hives are ready for the packages in the sping. 

By spraying syrup where the bees need to use it, the bees build up ever fast. What takes me 10 min. would take the bees weeks to do. Time is money when your trying to make a living. I must be doing something right, almost 30 years in the business. 

If you don't have a surplus of bees in 5 weeks your not doing something right. Or you need to get better QUEENS!:doh: I'll sell you one for $20.opcorn:

o/o Ron Householder


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

we got some returned 50 gal drums the other day with your labels on them, you seem to get around a bit.

mike


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

*there's gotta be a good Brazil story here*

even if its only about Afriacanized bees.......... lets hear it Jean Marc


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

The Honey Householder said:


> Ok by not bring the bees through winter I have all winter to get my hive bodies cleaned up. I sprayed frames full of syrup and reset boxes so the hives are ready for the packages in the sping.
> 
> By spraying syrup where the bees need to use it, the bees build up ever fast. What takes me 10 min. would take the bees weeks to do. Time is money when your trying to make a living. I must be doing something right, almost 30 years in the business.
> 
> ...




don't get me wrong never sad you were doing anything wrong, just trying to understand it....... might be something in there valuable for me also....

A few questions.... one what do you do with the bees in the fall???? kick them out ? kill them?? sell them off???

And you spray the frames with syrup... very interesting I could see how that might help packages be ready to shake a lot quicker, as nectar and pollen are in short supply early here.... 

you also mention your honey poundage numbers which seemed odd ot me but i could see that if yoru takeing all the honey, I leave 100 lbs on each hive so I could see that as a plus.

The syrup, what kind of mix and how many frames?? and how do you spray it??

Don't get me wrong, not trying to be critical at all just trying to follow....... if i could get that kind of buildup from packages I would be delerious!.... generaly pollen paties in feb and by may 1 I can shake out packaes or splits off of 2 year old hives. 

thanks for the insights..


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

honeyhouseholder writes:
sprayed frames full of syrup and reset boxes so the hives are ready for the packages in the sping.

tecumseh:
do you do this by hand or do you employ a pump/sump (I seem to recall that at one time kelley sold a bit of equipment to do this???).

would you mind providing some further detail about the concentration (1 to 1 or 2 to 1) of the syrup?


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