# Canadian Winter Losses



## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

This week has got warm enough we got to check our yards. After the late summer and open fall last year we did not know what to expect. When we wrapped hives last year they were about the strongest we have seen. The two deeps were overflowing with bees. We were amazed to find that we have a 96% survival rate. We have not seen these numbers before. We are also starting to feed this week as the hives a still very stong and they are going to be hard on feed untill we see some blooms. I am wondering how others have made out?


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I am seeing good survival rates so far. That said, not out of the woods yet. I winter outdoors and have been feeding bulk syrup and pollen for almost two weeks now. The last warm spell when i checked my hives they were rather low on stores and i felt it was too cold for the feed on top. Bulk feeding has gone well. They have had many days to collect feed. When we wrapped the hives they were really really heavy. Some took in feed while others did not. However most were well over the 200 pound mark in weight. Two grown farm men had troubles lifting the hives to put into block formation.

One yard however, of 16 hives, 4 are alive. That said, I was expecting total loss for that yard. These hives had problems all spring and summer, troubles foraging and building. They were "survivor stock" from the previous year, from a previous owner. I suspect viruses. Am i happy with those losses? No, just expected


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Got through 1/3 of my indoor hives,
running 20% as of now,
the hives that are alive are very strong
Losses are comming from starvation, v mites and queen problems.


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## Grid (Jun 5, 2009)

I have only two hives, but so far they have both survived. Light going into the winter, fed heavily in late fall, light coming out of the winter, fed dry sugar and pollen patties for about 3-4 weeks now, and just put some 1:1 syrup on.

Grid.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

A guy asked me recently what the % of winter losses were 25 years ago. I told him the losses were so few that I never coverted them to a %. You just counted the losses on one hand.

Back on topic. 20% loss. The most encouraging trend over the last cpl of years is that the survivours are real healthy. I'm pleased.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I am finding over half of my losses, 25% now, are starving over honey. 
Its the old saying, bees don't winter well on canola honey.
Its true for me this year. We had big canola crops last year leading well into fall. Produced alot of honey, but also put alot in the brood boxes. I wasn't proactive enough to relieve the problem and I am finding hive losses because of it. at least 10-15% of my total losses. 
My big hives must have had enough moisture to chew through the honey, but my smaller hives just didn't have enough, and I'm guessing dehydrated. The honey in the chamber was all uncapped, and dug into, but hard as a rock. It must of been like chewing on concrete!
I never had this kind of problem before. New experience to me,


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

We did not have a canola problem as that would have been extracted. Our bees were able to bring in stores up into Nov last year. I do not think I have ever seen a fall where the frost held off like that before. Our hives were so heavey we had used a crowbar to slide boxes together for wrapping.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Moved my hives out Sunday and Monday nights. I've gone through about 65% of them and the survival rates have been amazing. Running at 95+%. Even stuff I thought had no chance last fall has made it.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

We ran about 10-12% loss. Mostly queen problems. However we're nearing 500 nucs as of today. We are in good shape, bees even better, now the weather that's a different story. Lot's of rain lately, then it drizzles, then some showers etc...

Jean-Marc


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

Ian: I am wondering if the bees that are wintered outside may make better use of canola honey as these hives would have more condensation than those wintered inside at a constant temp. More condensation would gives the bees more water to use on the crystalized canola honey. ???


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

jean-marc said:


> However we're nearing 500 nucs as of today. Jean-Marc


lol, I was seeing frames with eggs in them and hoping for larva by the weekend.

It was one of those winters were absolutely everything seem to make it for me (unlike the last 2). I had a hive come thru which I thought had no chance last fall. While stripping the last super last fall we ended with a robbing frenzy and when we pulled the truck out of the yard this hive got the brunt of it. A week later when I came back to feed and it was starving and half of the bees had died. I poured some syrup on it and mark it for interest sake to see how it would winter. This spring it has three frames of bees and lots of eggs.

Another 10 hives were opened by a bear last Oct and were open for 2 weeks in cool rainy weather. Everyone of those hives made it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Ian: I am wondering if the bees that are wintered outside may make better use of canola honey as these hives would have more condensation than those wintered inside at a constant temp. More condensation would gives the bees more water to use on the crystalized canola honey. ??? 


Possibly,. Its frustrating. a good 15% lost on honey. There might be more to the story than just having trouble eating the honey. Stress and strain might of allowed some other ailment to take hold. 
I am seeing evidence of DWV, and in those colonies I see the symptoms, they are dead or near dead. 
might be a combination of things. Having trouble eating honey, that causing a stress that perhaps a virus took hold,.?

As for the rest of my hives, they look great. Alot of the hives are two boxes, some needing feed. How they handled the canola honey,.? Might be as simple as holding more humidity within a large cluster. Good thing my hives went into winter strong.

Some other were indoor feeding this winter to avoid starvation. I was thinking I should of tried some feeders also, perhaps the availability of liquid would of helped them along


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Went into winter with 125 and into 96 by feb 15. I did a lot of uniting of colonies with 4 frames of brood to colonies with 7 or 8, dispersing them through my strong hives so they would have about 10 frames of brood. so now i'm at about 75 hives but those hives are formidable. Been feeding cake and boost juice since jan and just finished giving the second feed of 1:1 syrup. I managed to get 2 formic treatments in too. I'm waiting to do the splits (3 ways of 6 frames each) to 50 of the colonies. 

Best hives I've seen in years. Had good weather up til now. We had good pollen from the hazelnuts and pussywillows and other plants. The maples and dandiloions are just starting here but the weather has just turned for the worse (hopeful for a change for the better). I'm kinda glad I gave em feed when I did.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian

I noticed that during the very cold weather the humidity in my wintering room was often at the 50% mark and that was with exhaust fan running only 15 min every 3 hours.

I was concerned about some of my hives last fall as well because they were on canola as late as September 15 and some of them were fairly heavy. I'm of the opinion that canola honey is useless for indoor wintering. If the bees do try to use it, there are a pile of crumbs under the frame. The problem is it is difficult to get enough syrup into a hive that is fairly full of honey.


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## afss (Mar 19, 2009)

only 3 hives but no loses yet


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Yesterday and today's weather may alter the outcome of my live hives. Rain with a good deal of snow. Cold and damp...Wait and see...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>> I'm of the opinion that canola honey is useless for indoor wintering. If the bees do try to use it, there are a pile of crumbs under the frame. The problem is it is difficult to get enough syrup into a hive that is fairly full of honey. 


Allen, did you pull honey frames in your chamber to make room for surip?
Do you enterence feed during the winter months?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Forcast is improving for this comming week. Should be able to get some open feeding into the hives.

What do you think Honeyshack? Are your hives falling back?


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

In the last week and a half, I lost about 15 of the weaker hives. It got cold for a few days and they either did not have enough stored by the cluster, or tried to keep the cluster warm and chilled themselves. And they are going through feed like crazy right now. I think that was one of my problems. Couple of the yards ran out of food for a day or two. Kept checking, but all of a sudden, the feed went like mad.
The strong ones are going crazy, so we should be able use splits to make the difference, and hopefully a few extra. Still alot can happen between now and mid to the end of April. So unpredictable right now. If the willows would get busy and do their thing, it would make a big difference. Running low on pollen supplement. You are right Ian, they go through it faster in the barrel than in the pollen feeders, and cheaper too...the barrel that is.


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

Ours were all wintered outdoors. Checked the feed today and they are using it but not in any great amount. One yard is bringing in a bit of pollin from the willows today. With the forcast we have that should pick up real fast.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian said:


> >> Allen, did you pull honey frames in your chamber to make room for surip?
> Do you enterence feed during the winter months?


I didn't pull frames in fall. But with running singles, huge fall hives, honey flow late and brood present late, I was concerned about space. I tried to feed an average of 4 gallons last year, but none of the yards completely emptied their feeders as a result of the cool Oct. Probably got an average of at least 3.5 gallons in. 

I didn't entrance feed during winter. But wow some of them were sure light coming out. Only one or two hives appear to have died due to starvation at first glance. I've heard good things about entrance feeding a couple of weeks before moving out, but its a lot of work imo. They're really hitting the feeders now. Even yesterday with a high of 10 C they took down a bunch of syrup.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>You are right Ian, they go through it faster in the barrel than in the pollen feeders, and cheaper too...the barrel that is. 


They really have to dig at the blue feeders, and it seems they arnt using it up as fast. But onthe other hand, with the barrel feeders, they might just be dusting most of it away,.?
There is much more activity around the barrel feeders by the looks of it.

>>but its a lot of work imo

thats right, lots of work. 
you got more surip into yours than i did mine by the sounds of it. I run late on the first pull becasue of a truck break down, put me a week behind. I think they back filled too early,
I was extracting honey 16%. I had trouble with granulation all year. I had a great honey crop last season, but I think the dry hard honey caught me off guard. I usually dont have any trouble this way.

But anyway besides that trouble, my hives are doing fine.



Are you guys going to use Apivar this spring? Formic perhaps?


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

The plan is formic, however if the mite counts are higher than i like, I will try Apivar. Dave Osterman suggested that Apivar would work real well in the spring.

I am hoping either the willows get their butts in gear, or that the pollen supplement gets into Winnipeg soon. They are going after wood sawdust right now. Can not imagine much protien from that

Larry says thank you for the pollen feeder idea. He is thinking on using chicken wire to cover the lid with a tie down ratchet strap to keep the squirrels out. Cheap, just how he likes it.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I think the Apivar did a great job for me last fall. Will need to test a some more to make sure. I'm thinking about 5 rounds of mite wipes this spring to knock back the tracheal mites as well. I'm a little gun shy about miteaway 2 in spring. 

Hard to believe that pollen substitute isn't available. I had some old stuff from last year that I'm thankful I have right now. I thought I was on top of things when I went in a couple of weeks ago to pick some up. Learn my lesson. On top of things next year will be a lot earlier.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

They are out of soy flour? or Bee pro?
Wow, thats poor planning on their part. I got mine a few weeks ago, thought it looked like they had lots,

Im going straight with Apivar this spring, as soon as my hives settle into place. They are going to have a good hold on brood before we know it. THis time of year is hard to tell whats exactly there in the boxes, unless they are wall to wall bees.
Im also thinking of formic mite wipes, for t mites.

Do you need to do 5 rounds to control t mites. At the convention, someone mentioned 2 rounds being enough. 5 rounds would also help with the v mites.
whats the timing between rounds?

Im going to feed a second patty in a weeks time. They are really chewing though these ones. I buy the 10% manitoba pollen patties. I really like the packaging idea, runny, enclosed and bit easier to squeeze between my tops.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I too thought i had enough pollen subsitute left from last year. Will know better for next year. I did and inventory check of what i had on hand for spring work up in January, and bought what i thought i needed. Live and learn, and make notes for next year.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Ian said:


> They are out of soy flour? or Bee pro?
> Wow, thats poor planning on their part. I got mine a few weeks ago, thought it looked like they had lots,


They had thought they had more than enough! They figured based on past sales the semi load they had would be enough until mid to end of April. However they had a real run on it. Not only are they out of Bee Pro but so is the maker of bee pro. So Right now it is being made, then it has to be shipped


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

For you Manitoba Beekeepers, the pollen sub powder has arrived.


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## Grid (Jun 5, 2009)

Grid said:


> I have only two hives, but so far they have both survived. Light going into the winter, fed heavily in late fall, light coming out of the winter, fed dry sugar and pollen patties for about 3-4 weeks now, and just put some 1:1 syrup on.
> 
> Grid.


Strike that - lost one. The hive made it, but they have no queen. Not sure what happened to her, she was laying well in the fall. Oh well. 

So the real question is - did I only lose one hive, or did I suffer 50% loss? 

Grid.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Grid,

If your talking to a fellow beek, you only lost 1 hive this winter. :applause:

If your talking to the press, you were decimated with 50% loss and you're not sure you can afford to carry on. :lookout:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

id say there is enough time to feed soy flour still,
I think the trees are going to be at least a week or a week and a half til the first blooms,
By that time, they will have the feeders emptied
Im going to have to re fill my pollen feeders, they are really taking it fast

Honeyshack,
with the open flour feeding in the barrel, 
the bees dont like landing on the flour itself, you will notice the bees lined around the hive top edges digging at it,
what I do is mix in a bunch of twigs, to give them something to stand on, the whole pile will be covered in bees


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## JoeMcc (May 15, 2007)

Ive lost several hives here in Western WA and so have a lot of my friends. I went to a recent meeting and reported that I had only lost 1 out of 28 which had bad dysentery. I got a few looks like what are you doing right. I'm about 3 weeks behind most of them as I am up in the mountains. As soon as the weather improved and my bees starting flying I lost 8 hives the first week. Classic CCD symptoms. The bigger the hive population it seemed like the faster they died.

FWIW

JoeMcc


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

I've kept 3 for 3. Not sure if they are out of danger yet. Wintered with 4 deeps total on. Plenty of honey left, too much really. I had lots of granulation in the honey as well. Thats why my bees moved to the top boxes quickly. Have found the queen in the strongest hive. Weakest had a queen cell in it and later was cut round. Not sure if there is a queen in the last one.

I have seen very little if any brood in the hives. Is this normal? I was wanting to split and there is nothing to split. Don't see any drones either.

Workers going after sawdust and chicken feed.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I think it will be a good week before we have a general tree bloom is about right. Might have the odd early willow.

With the current forecast I've not been in a great hurry to put patties on. The bees have been hitting the pollen barrels hard. I may wait until after tree bloom to patty the bigger hives.

Picked my new pollen substitute today.


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## PerryBee (Dec 3, 2007)

123456
I almost spit my coffee onto my keyboard, that was great!:lpf:
Perry


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

doc 25: It is two early to be opening up hives and going through them if they have been wintered outside. I think the queen cell would be from last fall. If not it will do you no good as there would not be any drones for mating for a while. You should not have any drones in the hive. They will come when the queen starts to lay this spring. If your hives have been wrapped, with the temps we have had there should be brood.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I may wait until after tree bloom to patty the bigger hives.

I always tend to give it to them right off the mark, I think it adds to their body weight, and gives them something more to feed to the larvae. But, ya, got to keep it to them when doing it this way. I think patty feeding is most beneficial to the emerging bees,

What do you think Allen?


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian said:


> >>I always tend to give it to them right off the mark, I think it adds to their body weight, and gives them something more to feed to the larvae. But, ya, got to keep it to them when doing it this way. I think patty feeding is most beneficial to the emerging bees,


I agree with you, I was trying to justify being lazy. I usually give them a patty immediately as well. This year the bee have taken in an average of half a pound of BeePro each already. Opened up some the hives today and they are storing some of it but there`s not a lot extra. If we get a cool weather they will protein deficient without patties. I also like using patties to see if the queens are good.

So I guess I`ll have to start putting on patties tomorrow.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

dgl1948 said:


> You should not have any drones in the hive.


Looked into a small hive today and was surprised to see lots of drones present. A quick look at the brood frame showed why-a bullet layer.


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

I am thinking we may see drones ahead of normal this year with the mild March we have had. I opened hives on one pallet yesterday to take a peek. Pulled a couple of frames from each hive and they are full of brood. I do not think I have ever seen our hives this strong and ready to go at this time of the year.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

dgl1948

Same thing I'm seeing. One of the hives I opening had a sizable section of drone cells with healthy larva in it. Very early for this time of year.

I do find that the Carniolans produce drones much earlier than Italians.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I was trying to justify being lazy

Ha


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Pollen coming in today


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

dgl1948 said:


> doc 25: It is two early to be opening up hives and going through them if they have been wintered outside. I think the queen cell would be from last fall. If not it will do you no good as there would not be any drones for mating for a while. You should not have any drones in the hive. They will come when the queen starts to lay this spring. If your hives have been wrapped, with the temps we have had there should be brood.



The queen cell was closed and upon a later inspection it was open. That hive had a patch of visible capped cells. The good part is if it was from this spring when she starts laying there will be lots of drones (until she is mated).
I had drones most of the winter. Would see them in the snow on failed cleansing flights (along with workers). It seems they finally died off when this warm spell arrived.
The temps have been pretty good (I'm in SE Sask near Moosomin) here lately and yes they were wintered outdoors.


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## Jonathan Hofer (Aug 10, 2005)

dgl1948 said:


> I do not think I have ever seen our hives this strong and ready to go at this time of the year.


Same here! Haven't seen any pollen thus far, but expecting some by the end of the week.


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

doc25 said:


> The queen cell was closed and upon a later inspection it was open. That hive had a patch of visible capped cells. The good part is if it was from this spring when she starts laying there will be lots of drones (until she is mated).
> I had drones most of the winter. Would see them in the snow on failed cleansing flights (along with workers). It seems they finally died off when this warm spell arrived.
> The temps have been pretty good (I'm in SE Sask near Moosomin) here lately and yes they were wintered outdoors.


Maybe some of the others here can help. A queen cell at this time would be a sign of a failing queen in the hive. For it to survive and hatch would indicate the hive is now no queen. ( not aways but 90% of the time) If this is a new queen she needs to mate within a few days of hatching. If she does not mate in that time frame she will be of no use to you. If the drones are hatching around the same time as the queen cell, drones take longer to mature, they will not be ready to mate when she is.Weather must be good for mating flights, and we may be having some good temps as of late I do not think we have had days that would support mating flights. I do not understand having drones all winter. I have not ever seen that in hives wintered outside. Usually after a good killing frost in the fall you see them getting kickrd out. I cannot explain them living all winter and now dieing off.


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## HealingBees (Jul 26, 2009)

Could it be because canola is a GMO, genetically modified organism?


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

dgl1948 said:


> I do not understand having drones all winter. I have not ever seen that in hives wintered outside. Usually after a good killing frost in the fall you see them getting kickrd out. I cannot explain them living all winter and now dieing off.


These drones were coming out of the hive I know for sure is queenright as well (marked queen). This hive was not typical for the 3 I have. They were having cleansing flights even in the -20 range. Right now there are bees occupying 4 deeps, not full mind you but they are certainly my strongest hive by far.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Could it be because Canola is a GMO?

no,
I have 75% of my hives thriving off the same honey


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