# Varroa Treatment for Nucs



## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Just wondering what you guys use to treat for Varroa on nucs.

I've been treatment free for a few years, but that didn't work (this past year I lost all of my hives, somewhere around 22). Now that I'm starting over I'm going with treatments, but I would like to stick with ones that do not leave residue in the comb and I would like to use a method that can be applied to full colonies and nucs. Based on what I've found, that leaves me with a few options. Oxalic Acid isn't an approved treatment in the states and Hopguard isn't approved in my state. While I'm not overly concerned that the EPA or NC Dept. of Agriculture will be on me like white on rice, I would still like to comply with the letter of the law as much as possible. I've heard good things about MAQS, but it can't be used on 5 frame colonies. I'm not Api Life Var, as I've heard you really need to use _three_ wafers per full colony (rather than the two suggested), and you need to use it three times in 7-10 day intervals. That makes it really expensive, so that I can treat two colonies with one 20 wafer pack @ $36. I also don't know how well they work on nucs. That's all the products I see Mann Lake and Brushy Mountain selling.

So . . . is there something I'm not taking into account? Am I stuck with sugar dusting? Or should I just break the law and find someone who is willing to send Hopguard out of state?


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## Hawkster (Apr 16, 2010)

Apiguard has come out with a smaller dose especially for Nucs. I haven't used it but I have used it on a regular hive with great results


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I would first try to get a mite count. Nucs, particularly spring ones, usually make it through the first year just fine but of course that depends on your supplier. Mite numbers won't start building till later in the summer. Oxalic acid will do very little good when brood is present. Chances are a well timed late summer application or two of a thymol product like Apiguard would do the trick for you. MAQS or Hopguard would also be good options with a wider treatment window. Oxalic (if you so choose) is excellent for fall use when the bees are broodless and have good populations. Best of luck this time around.


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## Buckybee (Jan 24, 2011)

I used the MAQS on my 5 frame nucs and it worked well. I cut the pads in half and installed them per instructions. I treated 9 nucs last fall when the temps were within range. I also made sure I had very good ventilation the first 24 hrs.


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## eqnox (Nov 10, 2009)

I would do a mite count, then if you need to treat I would use ApiLife VAR. You can use it to treat nucs by putting on 1/2 of the wafer. (1/4 of a pack. There are 2 wafers per pack) To get a maximum mite drop you do need to do three treatments. At $1.80 per pack, it is $2.70 per hive or $1.35 per nuc. So 22 hives is $59.40, which is about the cost of 1/2 of a nuc. I think this is cheaper than MAQS.

There are some disadvantages: you have to go back to to the hive 3 times, and use it when the temps are under 90 degs, and you have to treat without honey supers on. 

It works for me but YMMV.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> I would first try to get a mite count.


I will.

I'm not suggesting doing blind treatments. I just want to make sure that I have the product with me, in case I need it. I'm trying to learn from my mistakes, and part of my mistakes previously was the thought process of using a "Soft Bond" technique. If mite levels became noticeably high, I would treat to correct the issue. Problem #1 with that was once mite levels are "noticeably" high, it was too late. And problem #2 was by the time I noticed the problem, if I ordered treatments it would take a week or two to get to me, then the application time made it almost worthless. Plus, biting the bullet on spending $50 on treatments . . . when you only have one hive that needs to be treated (and that hive was usually two or three frames of brood by the time I realized a problem) . . . it was hard to justify the costs.

So, to rectify the problems I will first get mite counts periodically, and second have treatments on stand by, so I won't be as hesitant or reluctant to order/use them.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Oxalic (if you so choose) is excellent for fall use when the bees are broodless and have good populations.


I have heard good things about Oxalic, and I'm still toying with the idea.

To me, however, there are a number of draw backs. First, it's illegal. Not that the EPA has a microscope on my operation, but I try to make sure as little dirt lands on me as possible. Second, I'm not too fond of the application methods. The drip or drench is rough on the bees, so I don't really want to do that. Vaporizing either involves using (essentially) a crack pipe jammed full of wood treatments and lit with a butane torch, or buying a $90 vaporizer. I don't want my beekeeping operation to have any visual connection with the illegal drug scene (personal choice) and a $90 vaporizer is a little too steep for me to "try" a treatment with. And that's not even considering the harmful effects the vapor has on the beekeeper.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Buckybee said:


> I used the MAQS on my 5 frame nucs and it worked well. I cut the pads in half and installed them per instructions.


I hadn't thought of that. Anyone else give that a shot?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

You have a sound plan.
Nosema and antibiotic resistant EFB were big killers this year. Did you test for either or tracheal mites?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

eqnox said:


> At $1.80 per pack, it is $2.70 per hive or $1.35 per nuc. So 22 hives is $59.40, which is about the cost of 1/2 of a nuc. I think this is cheaper than MAQS.


My math comes out a little different. If I'm miscalculating, please let me know.

Mann Lake has on their website the following:



> Api Life Var® Thymol Strips
> 
> An alternative product for Varroa treatment. Up to 95% efficacy, most effective when the temperature range is 65º- 95ºF (18º - 35ºC). Three applications are necessary at 7-10 day intervals. When treating using 3 wafers per colony, the 10 pack will treat approximately 6 colonies and the 100 pack will treat approximately 66 colonies. Not available for sale in HI or CA.


It then has a 10 pack (with 20 wafers) for $35.95, or $1.80 _per wafer_, not per pack. At 3 wafers per colony (not the two you suggest) that would make _each application_ $5.40 per colony, or $2.70 per nuc. If you need to do three applications at 7-10 day intervals, that makes the total treatment equaling $8.10 per nuc, or $16.20 per colony. Treating 22 colonies would cost $356.40. That's not counting if I needed to treat twice a year, rather than just once.

I don't see the (financial) advantage.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> Nosema and antibiotic resistant EFB were big killers this year. Did you test for either or tracheal mites?


No. Neither did I treat for Nosema, EFB, or tracheal mites.

Tracheal mites are not common in my area (according to other local beekeepers), but I'm not ruling out the possibility that they had an impact.

I think Nosema may have been another leading factor. I don't really know how to test for it, and I know I need to learn more about it. I've been considering treating for it once a year, but I know it would be just blind treatment (something I'm very much against), but I don't really know what else to do.

I didn't see any signs of either EFB or AFB. Not that they aren't present, but I'm operating on the assumption that they are not at the moment.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Nosema and tracheal mites require dissection, or internal inspection. Both continue unnoticed by most beekeepers, but are quite common in Winter in cooler climates like yours.
Since your bees were treatment free so long, I think they were killed by a threat they had not dealt with before.
It is worth learning Nosema and tracheal mite detection.


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## eqnox (Nov 10, 2009)

Sorry, I was going off your price in your post and mistook it to be 20 packs for $35. I did not check the website. So basically double my figures. 

You use 1 wafer per treatment per hive and treat three times every 7 days. So basically you use 1.5 packs in total. The quote on the website is slightly misleading. This is the way I have done it and it works well for me. For small hives or nucs you can use 1/2 a wafer per treatment. A lot of local clubs will sell packs so you don't have to take on the cost of a full 20 packs at once.


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## spencer (Dec 7, 2004)

Have you tried making the hive broodless for 3-4 weeks to help with mite control? I've been doing this for the last few years and it has worked wonders.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

The problem with making a nuc queenless is it doesn't build up. For anyone wanting to make a large hive for honey or nuc production leaving it queenless that long reduces the population. It is also dependent on the bees being hygienic. A mid-season break in brood production to slow down the increase in mite numbers. That may give a hygienic colony a chance to get ahead of the mites some. 

What type of decrease in mite numbers do you see with breaking the brood cycle?

I did this last year with two colonies that had high mite numbers. I started two nucs from colonies with low mite numbers. I killed the queens in the colonies with high mite numbers. Around 30 days later I combined the nucs with the now hopelessly queenless colonies. One colony died early in the winter. The other survived winter but still has a very small cluster.

In the future I plan to manage varroa much more aggressively. Chemical treatments are an option I will use if I need. Management practices to combat varroa will be used first. So, in a nutshell, I will be practicing IPM.

Tom


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I'm going to put one foundationless frame in all the nucs I make this year and then pull the drone brood with a cappings scratcher. Since around 80% of the mites go to drone brood when readily available, should keep the counts low enough I won't have to treat. All the nucs I made up in July had low mite counts and I only lost 14% without treating. Most were from dead queens.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

I know why people do the drone thing, but it just seems wasteful to me. The bees put resources into making the drones and then killing them off to get the varroa seems wasteful. Just my 2 cents


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

camero7 said:


> I'm going to put one foundationless frame in all the nucs I make this year and then pull the drone brood with a cappings scratcher. Since around 80% of the mites go to drone brood when readily available, should keep the counts low enough I won't have to treat. All the nucs I made up in July had low mite counts and I only lost 14% without treating. Most were from dead queens.


I think that is an excellent idea as well. That comb can be melted down and yields a really high quality wax. I have never really understood the freezing thing, it sure seems like a lot of messing around and a lot of work for the bees to clean up as well. If that keeps your mite counts low enough you may not have to resort to any treatments but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> , but are quite common in Winter in cooler climates like yours.


Lol. Funny you consider my climate "cooler." Most don't.



AmericasBeekeeper said:


> It is worth learning Nosema and tracheal mite detection.


Agreed.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> I think that is an excellent idea as well. That comb can be melted down and yields a really high quality wax. I have never really understood the freezing thing, it sure seems like a lot of messing around and a lot of work for the bees to clean up as well. If that keeps your mite counts low enough you may not have to resort to any treatments but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.


I learned my lesson, ALWAYS do mite counts. Then decide when/if to treat.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Hawkster said:


> Apiguard has come out with a smaller dose especially for Nucs.


I haven't been able to find it anywhere. Do you know where it can be found?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I found the Apiguard Sachets (for use in treating nucs) for sale on Dadant's website (even though it's in the "feed" section and not the "pest control" or "medication" section . . . weird). However, they only sell them in 200 count boxes. A little difficult to "try" the product out if you are getting 200 treatments for $165.00. They appear to just be 25g versions of the 50g normal treatments. For that reason, I might be better off just getting the normal 50g treatment and cutting it in half to treat two nucs . . . or ordering the 3 kg tub and only putting 25g in a nuc rather than the normal 50g.


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