# Free Shipping Rant (Beekeeping Equipment Big Box Stores)



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Feel better now? Chillax a smidge.... winter hasn't even started yet.
Mann Lake has pricing that is in line with their competitors and offers free shipping over 100.
BTW, I do make most of everything I need except frames of course.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Free shipping as a marketing tool has been around for years. 

If you really want to see it used, go to E-bay and look at an item that cost $10.00 and has free shipping. Then find the same item by another vendor, sometimes the same vendor, and you will find the item for $6.00 and $4.00 shipping. It is a marketing tool.

cchoganjr


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## BeeMoose (Oct 19, 2013)

I wait until they offer free shipping. Most of the larger named stores will offer free shipping around Thanksgiving.

I will either wait until then to place a big order, or not order. The shipping on woodenware is ridiculous.

Also, if there is ever a larger bee expo or state meeting, some of the larger companies will bring your order there and deliver your items for free.

Everything is going up. Remember when companies started adding a fuel surcharge onto everything because the price of a gallon of gas was so extreme. Well, prices have fallen below that level,
but have you noticed the surcharges going away?! Absolutely not. Once the American company has you paying for something, it rarely goes away. Capitalism at it's finest.


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

BeeMoose said:


> Once the American company has you paying for something, it rarely goes away. Capitalism at it's finest.


Exactly!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh boo hoo.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

I completely understand when one wants to avoid high prices, I do myself whenever possible. However, on the other side of the coin if I want my beekeeping to pay for itself and make a little more (this is called profit), I am going to do everything in my power to meet that goal. This goes for anyone who wants to make a living from their business, whatever that business may be.This is especially true if I were to have a business that started with just myself and now employs a few hundred people and provides for their families. 
It's one thing to criticize "high" prices and then go find a way to cut them, in this case making your own equipment, etc. It is another thing completely to criticize high prices, but pay them anyway without attempting other routes that may be affordable? Why does this happen you ask? The answer is simple.....the business has found the current threshold that people are willing to pay. The threshold shifts constantly, so it has to be balanced, this is why companies offer "special deals" for their products. THE CUSTOMER lets the industry know that prices are right buy buying the product at a satisfactory rate to the businesses. When THE CUSTOMER starts finding ways around the "high prices" and the rate of sales decrease, that is when businesses will adjust to the threshold. Simply put, the "high prices" exist because CUSTOMERS are purchasing the product at those prices by and large. Don't blame the businesses, they are just reacting to our perception.
Just for kicks, who is to say that the lumber producers find out about our ways around high prices of bee equipment, which is us purchasing their products instead of the bee suppliers' products? What is to stop them from raising their prices to capitalize on our perception of the market? That's when we will go right back to the bee suppliers because they lost a lot of business to lumber suppliers and had to drop their prices to attract their lost customer base. That is how it works and it is always shifting. 
Are any of you selling a five frame nuc for $30? Are any of you selling packages for $10.50? How about honey for $.50? Why not?.......because the CUSTOMERS are willing to pay more! See, we beekeeper's are not any different from the suppliers that are being complained about. Inflation also plays a role here, but that's the gest of it. I'm not trying to blow anyone out of the water, but this is how it has been ever since man learned how to trade, sell, and buy goods. If you don't like the high prices, find a way around it and let the market shake out. :gh:


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Here is a post by Lauri in another thread. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...prices-these-days/page6&p=1181583#post1181583

Read what she wrote in post #105. She and people like her see what's happening and are responding in a terrific way. I suspect we will be buying her products soon if she keeps going at the rate she has been. These high prices are great for the birth of small businesses. It offers very diverse competition. :thumbsup:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I doubt it. Even if she did gear up production enough to sell to folks in TN you wouldn't like the cost of shipping.

Beekeepers are cheap skates. Always trying to squeeze the last penny out of a deal. Most of y'all are in this for a hobby, so make your own equipment if you don't like the price of good quality, standard sizes, customer service, and availability. It's not like you are going to effect the supply companies enough to get them to lower their prices.

Shop around for a better price if price is all you are interested in. Then you will have the quality to gripe about. Geezum.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Mark,
I'm neither for or against the "high prices". Besides, it's a completely relative term anyway. And you're exactly right, most are hobbyists....myself included at the moment. Right now it pays to build my own supplies, but if I have several hundred or thousands of colonies (like yourself) in the future I can guarantee you that i won't have the time to build them anymore and and will be buying equipment from a supplier unless I was to couple the beekeeping with the bee supplying, making an even larger business. Wait a minute......Mann Lake already does that. So does Kelley, Dadant, et al! 
I guess I should have clarified better. Sorry.


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Oh boo hoo.


Yo Mark, which company are you getting a kickback from? :thumbsup:


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## d20636 (Jun 27, 2013)

If it bothers you, I would suggest either shopping where they charge for shipping or building your own...


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

d20636 said:


> If it bothers you, I would suggest either shopping where they charge for shipping or building your own...


Obviously you and a lot more have missed the point of this thread. They ARE charging for shipping (hidden in their ongoing rising prices of tangible items)....Free is not free, to me, its gimmick advertising.


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## cowdoc (May 15, 2011)

Thanks for making this point. Here at Betterbee we just finished having the "free shipping" discussion, as it is a trend among other suppliers and we were feeling some pressure to jump on the bandwagon. Over several weeks of discussion we decided to forgo joining the free shipping trend, because 1) it is not free, and to sell it as such seems dishonest 2) we want to be transparent and differentiate our product and shipping costs- keeping costs competitive as possible and 3) it didn't sit well with us that our walk in customer would in effect be subsidizing the free shipping.

We recognize that this gives preference to our customers closer to us, as it is generally less expensive to ship in closer proximity. We also recognize that consumers want to know- as quickly as possible- the total of their online order, and we will be excluding those who now expect a free ship option. 

We did however, agree to choose some products that have a "free ship" option, to expand into other geographic regions and promote some products. But for now, we are going to stick to doing what we do well: getting out over 90% of our orders the same day, providing excellent customer service, and maintaining competitive pricing for merchandise as well as shipping.

It is an interesting topic and we would be interested to understand how other beekeepers feel about this!

Chris Cripps
[email protected]


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

angel said:


> Yo Mark, which company are you getting a kickback from? :thumbsup:


 I am not at liberty to say. 

MAXANT did send me a nice hat after I testified here on beesource as to the high quality of their equipment. But I can say that is the only "kickback" I have gotten from MAXANT. Just to make as full a disclosure as I can at this time.


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> I am not at liberty to say.
> 
> MAXANT did send me a nice hat after I testified here on beesource as to the high quality of their equipment. But I can say that is the only "kickback" I have gotten from MAXANT. Just to make as full a disclosure as I can at this time.


What are you waiting for then? With your numbers and popularity I would get a sponsor! You are already sponsoring companies already, but don't know it (for free). Make them work for you, your the expert and they are loving it. 

PS, Did they ship the hat for free?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I haven't yet decided which offer to take. Which one is the most lucrative and beneficial for me and which I could support w/out lose of reputation. Ha ha, whatever that is.

Yes, they sent it to me, I didn't order it. Did I mention it came from MAXANT, the makers of premier stainless steel equipment and the No Drip Valve?


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

You charge what the market will bare. The real issue is that there are a lot of new hobbyist beeks to which cost is no object. They drive their $60,000 car to Starbucks for their $5 cup of mocha...come on, what is a few more dollars for some wooden boxes to people who have no idea how to hold a saw. Who can blame the bee supply houses? Someone could easily make the same argument for charging $7 for a pound of honey.


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Yes, they sent it to me, I didn't order it. Did I mention it came from MAXANT, the makers of premier stainless steel equipment and the No Drip Valve?


:lpf:

That was good.


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

hilreal said:


> You charge what the market will bare. The real issue is that there are a lot of new hobbyist beeks to which cost is no object. They drive their $60,000 car to Starbucks for their $5 cup of mocha...come on, what is a few more dollars for some wooden boxes to people who have no idea how to hold a saw. Who can blame the bee supply houses? Someone could easily make the same argument for charging $7 for a pound of honey.


Best answer and some very good points. Build it and they will come.

So, this brings up a point... are they targeting the wealthy that don't care what it costs or are they targeting the naive? I guess the door swings both ways for this one.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

hilreal said:


> Who can blame the bee supply houses? Someone could easily make the same argument for charging $7 for a pound of honey.


I don't know about any of the rest of you, but I am a beekeeper, that's what I do best. I pay others to do what they do best. Shoot, I buy queens. If you want to complain about shipping costs there's something to complain about too.

"Do what you do best and pay for the rest." MarkB


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

"Did I mention it came from MAXANT, the makers of premier stainless steel equipment and the No Drip Valve?"

No drip valve... I don't believe it for a second. They better send me a medium sized powered extractor with this so called "no drip valve" so I can field test it for myself. lol


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

do you have a local woodenware distributor in your area? We have one for Beeline Apiaries and woodenware (they are nationwide). If I can afford to wait the 30 days for him to order it, I get cheaper than if I buy it direct from the source and pay shipping...although he stocks quite a bit of stuff so it's no wait and no shipping fees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I have a wooden ware builder in my area. About 40 miles away. He doesn't keep stock on hand, only builds what people order and he sends you a post card when it's ready to be picked up. A cash down payment and the rest when picked up. No credit cards and no stock pile of things people want.

I drive past Mann Lake in PA 6 or 8 times a year, half the time empty. So stopping in to their warehouse, which is huge, is great. But if I need something they ship it cheaper than I can drive down there and get it.

I'm getting two pallets of unassembled supers today, 400 shallow supers, from NH. Considering the distance and time it would take me to drive to where they come from I think $100.00/pallet is reasonable, don't you?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

cowdoc said:


> Over several weeks of discussion we decided to forgo joining the free shipping trend, because ...
> ...
> 3) it didn't sit well with us that our walk in customer would in effect be subsidizing the free shipping.


Thank you for pointing that out. :thumbsup:

Of course, that concept applies to will-call/store-visit customers of _any_ beekeeping supply company offering allegedly "_free_" shipping, including those that have regional branches/stores.

I'm a bit far away to visit Betterbee in person, but I do get to Wilkesboro NC (Brushy Mtn) on occasion, and appreciate _not _being forced to _subsidize_ mail-order/web customers. :lookout:

.


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

ruthiesbees said:


> do you have a local woodenware distributor in your area? We have one for Beeline Apiaries and woodenware (they are nationwide). If I can afford to wait the 30 days for him to order it, I get cheaper than if I buy it direct from the source and pay shipping...although he stocks quite a bit of stuff so it's no wait and no shipping fees.


Honestly, its not about the money or the shipping, its humanity that made me start this post. I could care less about the money part of this. To me, if they say something is free and there is a catch, that is dishonest. If I feel a company is dishonest, then it makes me leery about other promises, services and products.

I do care about younger generations or others that cannot afford to get into the hobby due to rising costs of the equipment due to free shipping marketing tactics.

If they are going to say FREE SHIPPING in bold letters, then it should be ZERO dollars and ZERO on the purchase quantity amount. I would much rather see more frequent email coupons, online promo codes, long term member coupons, by one get one free deals instead of a misleading "free shipping" ad.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

BeeMoose said:


> Remember when companies started adding a fuel surcharge onto everything because the price of a gallon of gas was so extreme. Well, prices have fallen below that level,
> but have you noticed the surcharges going away?! Absolutely not. Once the American company has you paying for something, it rarely goes away. Capitalism at it's finest.


Bingo! Our company does that and is still there. They make boo-koo bucks doing that. EVERY tik has an auto profit of $7.50. Taxes too. If you ever vote in a tax that they say will only last a duration of 5 yrs or whatever......dont believe it. Once that money is coming in, they will do anyhting to keep it coming.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

angel said:


> Honestly, its not about the money or the shipping, its humanity that made me start this post. I could care less about the money part of this. To me, if they say something is free and there is a catch, that is dishonest. If I feel a company is dishonest, then it makes me leery about other promises, services and products.
> 
> I do care about younger generations or others that cannot afford to get into the hobby due to rising costs of the equipment due to free shipping marketing tactics.
> 
> If they are going to say FREE SHIPPING in bold letters, then it should be ZERO dollars and ZERO on the purchase quantity amount. I would much rather see more frequent email coupons, online promo codes, long term member coupons, by one get one free deals instead of a misleading "free shipping" ad.


How about "Orders Over $100.00 We Don't Charge For Shipping"? Does that sound better?


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> How about "Orders Over $100.00 We Don't Charge For Shipping"? Does that sound better?


Actually, I think it does and I would actually order from your company if you posted it that way. At least its not deceiving and playing me for an idiot. Anyone else concur?

Seriously, that works.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you drop into the Mann Lake outlet and buy a bunch of stuff they still have to handle it. The only thing they don't have to do is arrange for transportation and then put it on a truck. So they aren't saving enough to warrant giving anyone a discount.

Maybe cowdoc has some insight?


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> If you drop into the Mann Lake outlet and buy a bunch of stuff they still have to handle it. The only thing they don't have to do is arrange for transportation and then put it on a truck. So they aren't saving enough to warrant giving anyone a discount.


Just like the gas station that charges .35 cent "courtesy fee" for any transaction swiped with a debit/credit card less than $10 doesn't get my business. Next think you know there will be a "electric bill" "water bill" "standing room" Fee tacked on.

They don't also have to track the package, hire extra help for lost packages, submit forms for damaged/lost packages, respond to emails/phone calls about packages when it was shipped, pay for shipping material (tape, shipping popcorn, bubble wrap etc).


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> If you drop into the Mann Lake outlet and buy a bunch of stuff they still have to handle it. The only thing they don't have to do is arrange for transportation and then put it on a truck. So they aren't saving enough to warrant giving anyone a discount.


Huh? If you pick up your order in person, Mann Lake saves themselves the _cost of shipping_ your order to you, but you are paying for that shipping _anyway _as the shipping cost is built into the Mann Lake selling price. UPS/FedEx and their LTL truck brethren certainly don't work for free!


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## CajunBee (May 15, 2013)

Welcome to America! http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free%20enterprise


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

CajunBee said:


> Welcome to America!


Ah yes, the land of the _FREE_!


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## WillH (Jun 25, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Thank you for pointing that out. :thumbsup:
> 
> Of course, that concept applies to will-call/store-visit customers of _any_ beekeeping supply company, including those that have regional branches/stores.
> 
> I'm a bit far away to visit Betterbee in person, but I do get to Wilkesboro NC (Brushy Mtn) on occasion, and appreciate _not _being forced to _subsidize_ mail-order/web customers. :lookout:


The walk-in customer to Betterbee does not pay shipping, but pays NY sales tax, which probably is more. If I order from Betterbee I have to pay shipping plus 8.675% tax. I get most my orders from Mann Lake.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

WillH said:


> If I order from Betterbee I have to pay shipping plus 8.675% tax. I get most my orders from Mann Lake.


Perhaps that you were not aware that New York state law _requires _you to pay "Use Tax" (equivalent to sales tax) if you have _not _paid sales tax. That means if you - as a NY state resident - buy from Mann Lake, you are legally required to file and pay use tax on those purchases. 



> Sales tax applies to retail sales of certain tangible personal property and services. [HIGHLIGHT]Use tax applies if you buy tangible personal property and services outside the state and use it within New York State.[/HIGHLIGHT]
> 
> http://www.tax.ny.gov/bus/st/stidx.htm


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

angel said:


> Honestly, its not about the money or the shipping, its humanity that made me start this post. I could care less about the money part of this. To me, if they say something is free and there is a catch, that is dishonest. If I feel a company is dishonest, then it makes me leery about other promises, services and products.
> 
> I do care about younger generations or others that cannot afford to get into the hobby due to rising costs of the equipment due to free shipping marketing tactics.
> 
> If they are going to say FREE SHIPPING in bold letters, then it should be ZERO dollars and ZERO on the purchase quantity amount. I would much rather see more frequent email coupons, online promo codes, long term member coupons, by one get one free deals instead of a misleading "free shipping" ad.


Well said and I agree completely. If it seemed I went off topic earlier, I apologize. Its just that I come across people all the time who whine about high prices and phony deals but yet pay it, which is why these "deals" exist in the first place. There is no difference between the two in my mind.This is not capitalism at its finest. Capitalism at its finest is doing business with the humanity you mentioned above. 
It's easy for greed to sneak in and distort the picture whether a society is capitalistic, socialistic, or communistic in nature. I know this is sounding might philosophical, but greed is the root of the problem and the customer has the power to address it and correct it if need be. This is why I find ways around businesses that operate on a business philosophy that i disagree with. 
I think this is a great thread. And I enjoy reading the opinions on topics like this that make me think. :thumbsup:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

angel said:


> Honestly, its not about the money or the shipping, its humanity that made me start this post. I could care less about the money part of this. To me, if they say something is free and there is a catch, that is dishonest.


Seriously, you think "free shipping" is actually free? And to find out it isn't you feel is dishonest? Businesses have all kinds of ways to hide costs from the consumer. You buy products everyday that have "hidden" costs.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

In the end the product cost the same to the buyer so what difference does it make. there is no free lunch. a company has to make at least 30% to stay in business.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

angel said:


> Honestly, its not about the money or the shipping, its humanity that made me start this post. I could care less about the money part of this. To me, if they say something is free and there is a catch, that is dishonest. If I feel a company is dishonest, then it makes me leery about other promises, services and products.
> 
> I do care about younger generations or others that cannot afford to get into the hobby due to rising costs of the equipment due to free shipping marketing tactics.


I don't think "free shipping marketing tactics" used by some companies is keeping anyone from starting beekeeping, unless they can't be bothered to take a few minutes to shop around and find the companies that do not offer free shipping or to find the most competitive prices, which often may include the "free shippers.". Anyone of average intelligence can add up their product costs and shipping to get their total and compare it with the next company.

The last time I shopped for some woodenware (some years ago now,) I priced comparable boxes including the price of item and what it would cost me to receive it and I ordered from Mann Lake. As mentioned earlier, they offer free shipping on orders over $100. If they padded their prices to cover shipping then and still the total was less than I found elsewhere, then good for them and good for me. Maybe the prices were a bit higher for walk-in customers because of this but their prices still were competitive with other and not worth whining about.

And, if saving humanity is really what you are interested in, they you owe it to humanity to takes a few minutes to shop around. From your posts here, I don't think you bothered to take the time.

Wayne


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Barry said:


> Seriously, you think "free shipping" is actually free? And to find out it isn't you feel is dishonest? Businesses have all kinds of ways to hide costs from the consumer. You buy products everyday that have "hidden" costs.





angel said:


> So, this brings up a point... are they targeting the wealthy that don't care what it costs or are they targeting the naive? I guess the door swings both ways for this one.


Interesting suggestions.......:lookout:


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Huh? If you pick up your order in person, Mann Lake saves themselves the _cost of shipping_ your order to you, but you are paying for that shipping _anyway _as the shipping cost is built into the Mann Lake selling price. UPS/FedEx and their LTL truck brethren certainly don't work for free!


And if you walk into a store to pick up your order in the middle of the week in January and you are the first customer in 4 hours, then the company still saved the shipping cost. A great deal for them as long as their retail staff works for free.

Wayne


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## WillH (Jun 25, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Perhaps that you were not aware that New York state law _requires _you to pay "Use Tax" (equivalent to sales tax) if you have _not _paid sales tax. That means if you - as a NY state resident - buy from Mann Lake, you are legally required to file and pay use tax on those purchases.


I pay use tax when I file tax return next April. I get enough time to sell honey and earn to make that payment. With Betterbee, I have to come up with money right away. They should provide free shipping to state residents if they want us to buy from them.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

WillH said:


> I pay use tax when I file tax return next April. I get enough time to sell honey and earn to make that payment. With Betterbee, I have to come up with money right away. They should provide free shipping to state residents if they want us to buy from them.


Trying to follow your logic. If you are a commercial beekeeper, why are you paying _any _tax on bee equipment? 

And why should they provide free shipping to you? Angel seems to think that is destroying humanity.

Wayne


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WillH said:


> The walk-in customer to Betterbee does not pay shipping, but pays NY sales tax, which probably is more. If I order from Betterbee I have to pay shipping plus 8.675% tax. I get most my orders from Mann Lake.


Not if you fill out and sign a Tax Exempt form. Ask them about it next time. Items bought for farming are taxexempt.


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## WillH (Jun 25, 2010)

waynesgarden said:


> Trying to follow your logic. If you are a commercial beekeeper, why are you paying _any _tax on bee equipment?
> 
> And why should they provide free shipping to you? Angel seems to think that is destroying humanity.
> 
> Wayne


I think this whole discussion is about hobby beekeepers. I don't think any one who buys large scale pays catalog prices. Not destroy, I think humanity will be saved by free shipping.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Items bought for farming are taxexempt.


sqkcrk..... Not in Kentucky. Beekeeping in Kentucky is not farming for sales tax. 6 % on all sales. 

cchoganjr


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## CajunBee (May 15, 2013)

WillH said:


> I pay use tax when I file tax return next April. I get enough time to sell honey and earn to make that payment. With Betterbee, I have to come up with money right away. They should provide free shipping to state residents if they want us to buy from them.


Just tell'm you don't use this stuff, the bees do !


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I think part of the "free shipping" has to do with companies not having to compute shipping fees and constantly updating their databases of rates. It's smart PR and it saves them money by not needing to constantly update shipping charges........


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

These bee supply companies make their money way before shipping charges. A smoker such as the one pictured






sells for approx. 30.00 plus shipping from bee supply houses. They actually purchase these and get them shipped to their door from China for approx. 10.00 each. That's a pretty good profit per item sold. Queen catcher clips will blow your mind on how much profit is made on each.
There is a lot of hidden costs that bring the profit margin down, but like stated before, a company has to make a profit to stay afloat.


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## jrhoto (Mar 2, 2009)

If you are paying shipping, compare all the companies and buy from the one that has the lowest price.This may take a little time but will also save you some bucks.

poorvalleybeefarm.com


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

angel said:


> Exactly!


Really? Whats your beef? Do you feel like someone owes you something? I just dont understand. You have clear choices, pay shipping, buy and get free shipping, drive somewhere and pick it up, or build your own. Oh of course, you could always sell your equipment and bees then you wouldnt have to deal with the free shipping. G


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Being remote from bee supply houses I sure appreciate free shipping; maybe close by shoppers subsidize me! I know up front what it is going to cost and neither I nor the supplier have to waste time calculating it. 

There are many ways we *are* manipulated by vested interests, but I don't see this as being a very malicious example.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Huh? If you pick up your order in person, Mann Lake saves themselves the _cost of shipping_ your order to you, but you are paying for that shipping _anyway _as the shipping cost is built into the Mann Lake selling price. UPS/FedEx and their LTL truck brethren certainly don't work for free!


Yep, you are right. :thumbsup:

Went to Mann Lake a month back ordered a couple k$ of eqp. The guy says that your truck, we'll get you all loaded up. Oh how much you knocking off for not shipping this stuff? We don't do that he says. Oh then just send it to me,the UPS guy that comes to my house is a good guy and he needs a job too.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Flyer Jim said:


> .... Oh then just send it to me,the UPS guy that comes to my house is a good guy and he needs a job too.


:lpf:  Thank you for _illustrating _my point very nicely! 




However, based on some earlier comments on this subject, it _IS _possible to get negotiated pricing from Mann Lake for (large) orders that will be picked up. Probably best to negotiate that detail _before _placing the order, though.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Free shipping? Those 3 pallets of 50-50lb bags of sugar sure did not get shipped to me free. On the other hand, compare the price of 1000 deep boxes from Dadant to the price of 1000 deeps from any one else. I think you will find that it will pay to have a LTL shipment from Dadant. 

Don't worry about whether the cost of shipping is built in or not. Figure out what you want, and what the cost is F.O.B. your house. Worry more about the quality of what you get, when you get it, and of they will be there next year.

Awww, SQKCRK, you got a Maxant Hat?? All I ever got was 3 meals, 8 hours of education, and a Dadant 150'th hat(thank you Gabe, Arlen and crew). 

Crazy Roland
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

angel said:


> Its like ebay, someone will put a new iphone on there for _buy it now _at $1.00, but shipping is $650.00. Honestly, its deceiving, but cleaver marking/psychology.
> 
> Just wanted to help out new beekeepers that are pricing out new equipment for their hobby. Note that my version of their free shipping is their strategy to increase their prices on equipment during low times, and drop free shipping during peak times (and thus retaining the higher inflating costs of equipment maintained during free shipping seasons).


First, I would like to know what your experience is in operating any sort of shipping operation. How aware are you with contract pricing on bulk shipments? When was the last time you negotiated a $200 freight charge on a ton of freight? I understand what you think is going on. 

Manufacturers of equipment for example can produce and sell equipment at a price almost the same as someone going to home depot and buying the lumber alone. That is because they use mass production methods. and they also buy in bulk. you do not pay nearly as much for a truck load of lumber as you do for one piece off the shelf at Home Depot. The same is true for freight. you don't pay nearly as much per lb for it when you ship by the ton.

Now about the $1 phone with $650 in shipping. That happens to be illegal. That does not mean ti is not done. but if audited such a company woudl have to justify that shipping cost. I suppose if you consider illegal practices savy business methods you are free to do so.

I can get a complete hive with bottom bard. deep body, 10 frames inner cover and outer cover for $75, Unassembled shipping included from Mann Lake and their free shipping offer. Not a light weight item. How do others prices with shipping compare to that?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Flyer Jim said:


> Yep, you are right. :thumbsup:
> 
> Went to Mann Lake a month back ordered a couple k$ of eqp. The guy says that your truck, we'll get you all loaded up. Oh how much you knocking off for not shipping this stuff? We don't do that he says. Oh then just send it to me,the UPS guy that comes to my house is a good guy and he needs a job too.


So what you would not have paid in freight you pay for their to be a store to walk into. I can run a shipping only operation from my living room. No need for a store. Mann Lake can operate and pay the expenses of a store front or they can pay freight charges. I know hands down which I would choose. Far less headaches in just shipping stuff. Go check out the cost of rent on a store front. I would be shocked if you could find anything for less than $2000 a month. then price the cost of things like displays and other equipment. I helped a store open not long ago. they went through $40,000 before the doors where even open. And most of the labor was free.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

DanielY, I think the gripe is that it is called "Free Shipping" when it isn't really free at all, it's built into the price.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Roland said:


> Free shipping? Those 3 pallets of 50-50lb bags of sugar sure did not get shipped to me free. On the other hand, compare the price of 1000 deep boxes from Dadant to the price of 1000 deeps from any one else. I think you will find that it will pay to have a LTL shipment from Dadant.
> 
> Don't worry about whether the cost of shipping is built in or not. Figure out what you want, and what the cost is F.O.B. your house. Worry more about the quality of what you get, when you get it, and of they will be there next year.
> Crazy Roland
> Linden Apiary, est. 1852


Agreed. I always ask for a delivered price from both Dadant and ML and Dadant usually works out a bit cheaper though you do have to factor in the ML Bee Bucks program. I have made some large purchases of woodenware from Dadant and had them drop off the equipment directly from the Polson semi and the only freight I paid was for the proportional share of the trucking costs.


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## TxGypsy (Mar 17, 2012)

I would think most folks are smart enough to comparison shop. I assure you I compare the cost of items with 'free' shipping to the cost with shipping of items from other suppliers. 

I have started ordering from Mann Lake. Dadant is my local supplier, but after calling time after time and them not having what I need, and dealing with one particularly nasty employee....I'll pay the tiny amount extra to actually get what I need when I need it. Sure do wish they carried the nuc boxes I need.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

oops sorry


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I am split on my feelings on the matter. Some of it is the practical issues such as, shipping one box or five boxes is the same amount of work to put it in the box and put a label on it and I don't want to pay five times the shipping of one box to do that... another issue is if I show up at a meeting or at the actual store, I would like a discount since they don't have to ship it...

On the other hand, when I'm ordering something it seems more honest that the price listed is what it will actually cost me, rather than I add it all up, do the shipping and THEN I know what it will cost me...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Given the number of threads every year we see about beekeepers being upset by what they see as unreasonable shipping charges, it simply seems more honest and certainly more predictable to include the shipping in the price.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

deknow said:


> Given the number of threads every year we see about beekeepers being upset by what they see as unreasonable shipping charges, it simply seems more honest and certainly more predictable to include the shipping in the price.


We live in a society free of choices, choose to pay or build your own. Period. Noone owes anyone free boxes, frames, or shipping. If you dont like it, move on and find a deal you like. G


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## dleemc1 (Dec 31, 2012)

I like the free shipping, I can get it put at the front door cheaper than I can pay for it in the same state I live in from a different supplier. tax you know


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

angel said:


> Obviously you and a lot more have missed the point of this thread. They ARE charging for shipping (hidden in their ongoing rising prices of tangible items)....Free is not free, to me, its gimmick advertising.


Nothing is free. This was only a surprise when I was still using my parents toilet paper, and water, and electricity. Even then I think I had a clue that it wasn't really free.

When a price is such that buyers are willing to buy and sellers are willing to sell it's the free market doing exactly what it is supposed to do.

Sorry, but I don't understand the problem. Are you also upset about high honey prices? Do you include free bottles or jars with a honey purchase?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

angel said:


> Just like the gas station that charges .35 cent "courtesy fee" for any transaction swiped with a debit/credit card less than $10 doesn't get my business. Next think you know there will be a "electric bill" "water bill" "standing room" Fee tacked on.


Wait. You think free shipping is nefarious, but you refuse to pay card fees? Do you think that card services are free? Someone has to pay transaction fees weather you are aware of them or not. 

Again - nothing is free.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I used to do large purchases of tools and supplies for another internet group. I did all transactions through Pay Pal. They charged 35 cents for every transaction plus 3%. Guess what got added to the cost of an order. It is what it cost to get an item to the customer. So they paid for it. Now I could have opened a store front. then paid $2.00 additional for every item om my shelves. Guess who would pay that. I could also sell my goods at craft shows at about $500 or more a weekend. guess who paid for that. The idea is I don't pay out of my pocket to provide others with something they want. simple as that. if you don't want to pay shipping charges on beekeeping supplies. don't buy beekeeping supplies.

Here is an example. a tool that in the US would cost $30 plus shipping. I could get them for $5. Shipping them to me just about doubled that price. Add the cost of postage to the customer. labels printing, packaging (boxes, bubble wrap, tape, etc), Hauling it all to the post office, Plus the cost of the space I kept it stored in and repackaged in the final cost came out about $15 each. I sold them by the hundreds and never made a dime for my time. 

You know what people cried about then? That I was putting these same greedy thieving businesses out of business. I wish I had that sort of skill.


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

So I got this newsletter from Kelley's saying they dropped their min order from $200 to $150 for their "free" shipping. Although it appears they haven't updated their website yet.

interesting.

dead horse kick..... stir.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I doubt there are maybe/any people who aren't aware that the price to ship the item isn't baked into the cost. I've shopped around for every order I'd placed so far and by the time shipping gets factored in, the "free shipping" places (in most cases Mann Lake for all but maybe one of my limited orders) has won out for total cost. 

If I'm buying 10 items from Mann Lake for $200 w/ Free Shipping or the same 10 items from Joe's Bees for $175 w/ $35 shipping does it really make the equipment from Joe's cheaper? I guess I don't get the argument that anyone is having the wool pulled over their eyes here? At least not any more than ANY other purchase you've ever made. 

Go rent a hotel room, pay a cellular phone bill, or purchase a concert ticket and then we can talk about "hidden" fees.


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