# Emergency queens



## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

drone1952 said:


> Hi,
> I have read in books or magazines( I do not remember exactly) that emergency queens are not so good because of the comb(the cells are too small because of the brood rear).If you use new build comb-the queen laying eggs for first time you have chance to have good queens. It’s true?
> Can you help?


Generally swarm queens are the best you can get, because the girls get the queen to lay the egg right into the queen cell, and they take really good care of them. Emergency are just that, emergencies. They are often made from less than perfect larva, and raised in cells that are in less then perfect postions.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I would add that emergency queen cells are often from larvaw that are too old and havent been fred the right diet with the right attention from the worker bees.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Swarm queens are always the best fed. If given eggs, the bees know how to choose an appropriately aged larvae better than your average queen breeder. I'm not really sure how the shape of the cell affects the queen produced, but I admit that large, symmetrical cells seem asthetically pleasing.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Aspera said:


> Swarm queens are always the best fed. If given eggs, the bees know how to choose an appropriately aged larvae better than your average queen breeder. I'm not really sure how the shape of the cell affects the queen produced, but I admit that large, symmetrical cells seem asthetically pleasing.


I found a hive recently that built a queen cell out of the face of the frame that was almost 4" long, it really looked like...... ......well you know . A couple frames over I found another one, but not quite as long. They were capped, so I am curious to see what comes out .


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I would add that emergency queen cells are often from larvaw that are too old and havent been fred the right diet with the right attention from the worker bees.

That is one theory. Here's Jay Smiths:

"It has been stated by a number of beekeepers who should know better (including myself) that the bees are in such a hurry to rear a queen that they choose larvae too old for best results. later observation has shown the fallacy of this statement and has convinced me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances.

"The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Queens Reared by the Emergency Method


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## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

*Not That I'm At All Interested*

in..
>it really looked like...... ......well you know,

however i am more that just curious about what emerges from the forementioned unit that has been erected in your box.

I'm thinking this could be the Holy Grail of Queen Breeders around the world. This could be the Hass Avacado of beekeeping.

Four inches of Queen would surely be easy to find in on a frame, unless all her offspring are 4" long too. 

The new Super Bee, oblivious to Varroa, predator of Hornets From Hell, Brazillian Basher. Able to shred ANY flower to access the nectaries.

There goes the Lang hive..Bee space wont ever be the same again. 

Migratory beeks will be putting one hive per pallet- 40 colonies to the truckload.

May the saga continue.

Please,PLEASE, please let us know what comes of this.

No, seriously.
-jim
OK? Please?


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## drone1952 (Dec 4, 2005)

Thanks All of you for answers.Thanks Michael for you help.I know I did read this.Thanks publishing books like this in your site helping beekeepers like me.Thanks.
George


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

As always, MB demonstrates what can be learned by blending avid reading with ample experience. I enjoyed that little blurb from Jay Smith. I'll have to start reading his books.


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## Cristian Radut (Jul 15, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> >
> The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."



I think Jay Smith is wright with the idea that a emergency queen cell doesn't allow the larva to turn back and eat the rest of royal jelley. This situation and the fact that the bees most of the time choose older larvae explain the low performance of such queens.

But he is wrong saying: "if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens." 

A queen from an emergency cell is always inferior to another raised in normal cell, doesn't matter if the bees choose to swarm or to change the old queen. Because of the forced breeding, her abdomen surely won't be well developped. Maybe the bees will create an larger cell if using wax from new combs, but what about the age of larva? Won't be the same? Older? 

Let's consider that in a colony remains only the frames with eggs. What will do the bees when the queen is misssing? They'll expect the eggs to become larvae, but won't create queen cell with 12 hours old larvae, they always wait the larvae to become older. I don't know why, but the bees always proceed this way.

Anyway, emergency queen cells are hard to work with and the resulting queens have inferior performance.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

reading this post makes me think what the old time beekeepers were thinking when they would go out in the summer and pinch queen heads to have the hives raise young queens for the winter. it worked for them, I would call these emergency queens.... when you go out and make a split and let the queen less split raise its own queen, wouldn't this be a emergency queen, seems like it would to me. I have had some very good queens this way!!! I dont believe in the statement that all emergency queens are inferior, but do believe it is the best chance to get a inferior queen,,,,,, I was just thinking.... see the smoke!!!


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## Cristian Radut (Jul 15, 2007)

The best chance to...?....
Yes, it is, surely it's!


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

but dont get me wrong, on adverage you will get more good queens than inferior queens, 3 out of 4 should be fine, might even be better than that...


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## stingmaster (Jul 27, 2007)

Funny, this whole subject has been on my mind lately. I have been doing splits by just simply letting the "new" half raise a Queen on their own. Then I start reading about inferior Queens created this way. Huhmmm...guess then I have been doing it wrong. O.K., the question from me at this point is if my emergency Queens are less than good, wont they simply superceed her fairly soon? I guess I just do not want to bother with buying new Queens unless I want some different genetics ect. 
I am about to do 40 splits here..... is my thinking wrong? I supose I need to learn to make my own Queens here one day.


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## stingmaster (Jul 27, 2007)

BTW... Ted- you made me feel a whole lot better when I read your posts. Perhaps I was not doing it all wrong, lol.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>But he is wrong saying: "if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens."

He says that based on his experiments with new comb as opposed to old comb. On old comb they float the larvae out and the larvae can't eat all of that back in the old cell. On new comb they actually tear it down. Jay claims they never use too old of a larvae.

>A queen from an emergency cell is always inferior to another raised in normal cell, doesn't matter if the bees choose to swarm or to change the old queen. Because of the forced breeding, her abdomen surely won't be well developped.

"Forced breeding"?

> Maybe the bees will create an larger cell if using wax from new combs, but what about the age of larva? Won't be the same? Older?

Not according to Jay.

"Cells Built From New Combs

"In the year 1934 I observed a strong colony in a hive containing only new white combs. They were hybrid bees and I had removed their queen intending to introduce a better queen. I had to ship out so many queens that I put off requeening this colony. We finally had a queen to introduce and on examining this colony I was astonished to see large well-developed queen cells such as I had seldom seen. Upon further examining this colony I found that they had torn down the comb and a number of worker cells and had built these fine cells over the very small larvae in the cells. " --Jay Smith Better Queens

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Cells Built From New Combs


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

*Take Control*

When you make a split and let them raise there own Emergency Q Cell You can do 1 of two things 

Place Divide in Parent Location (do this if you want the divide left in the same yard) it will catch the field force that is bring in the groceries so they will have proper nutrition. MAKE sure the parent hive has plenty of stores if not feed. (ALSO IT IS BEST TO FEED PARENT HIVE THE DAY BEFORE MAKING THE DIVIDE IF NOT MUCH NECTAR IS COMING IN like you would any cell builder.

OR move them to a new location (1 mile at least) and feed when you place them.

Next in 5 or 6 days go through the frames of brood and knock off all sealed Queen cell. LEAVE 1 queen cell that has a small larvae with lots of royal jelly I like leaving one on the side edges if possible in stead of one coming out of the face of the comb. (CAUTION before you knock off to many queen cells always locate a selected cell to keep) And the reason I said to knock off all cells but 1 is I use to make most all my divides like this before I started grafting Is Several of them would SWARM on me

So take Control of the situation and You will have some very well raised EMQ

One word to the wise if you are in a bad drought don't even try you usually will end up disappointed.


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## Cristian Radut (Jul 15, 2007)

How much honey did you got with those emergency queens that you consider fine? Emergency queens are always smaller than normal queens, according to my eyes. 

Yet, when creating emergency cells, the bees choose all kind of larvae, from 1 to 3 days older and first will born the bad queens, raised from old larvae; when get born, in a few hours all the rest of queen cell will be destroyed by her. And the colony remains with "the worst of" queens.

I wonder why queen breeders graft larvae, use starter colony and finishing colony, instead of making "the best of" queens using Smith's advice... So, i think i'll ask Joe Latshaw for this.


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## Riki (Jan 31, 2007)

I agree that, most of the time, one can get good queens from emergency cells, but sometimes I see (after 3-4 days after made queenless) a larva that is much bigger than the others. I wouldn't bet any money on her!


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

*All queen Cells are EMQC Except*

Unless they are swarm cells or superseder Cells 

Even the Queen cells when you graft are EMERGENCE Queen cells You just have Control on what age larvae is used. 

So about 5/6 days after you have made up the divide knock off all sealed Queen cells and leave 1 that has lots of royal jelly on the edge of the comb.


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## Aisha (May 2, 2007)

peggjam said:


> I found a hive recently that built a queen cell out of the face of the frame that was almost 4" long, it really looked like...... ......well you know . .


Peggjam,

No fair teasing us! Can you post a photo to the photo section? It sounds like one for the history books...or a mass media blitz. 

It reminds me this recent story: God in an eggplant.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Sorry, I wish I had gotten a pic that day, because they tore it down a week or so later..and the queen, just a plain ordaniary old queen. For those of us dreaming of a super huge race of honeybee queens able to lay eggs nonstop, well, we already have one, what do we need another one for.


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## Cristian Radut (Jul 15, 2007)

Very big queencells appear most of the time because the beekeeper, when he moves the frames and turn them, etc. the larva from the queen cell slides to the opening of the cell; the bees will not put it back, but only make the cell longer.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Cristian Radut said:


> Very big queencells appear most of the time because the beekeeper, when he moves the frames and turn them, etc. the larva from the queen cell slides to the opening of the cell; the bees will not put it back, but only make the cell longer.


Or bounces them on a trailer for 6 hours. Hadn't thought of that explanation, sounds plausible.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Cristian,

Not trying to start an argument, but I have issues with most of everything you said.

First, I've raised many EQs and if done under the right conditions will produce very large and very productive queens. If done poorly, the result will be inferior (very small) queens. However, all the same rules for grafting apply to EQ, so we're not talking about special precautions necessary, except with respect to the "old comb" concept that I accept as plausible. 

Second, it is not always the case that the "first out" will destroy all remaining Q-cells. Not hardly. I've seen hives with as many as three emerged virgins with intact cells remaining. The colony as a whole has a lot to do with what goes on within the hive, including the actions of virgins. 

Third, grafting is done for many reasons, but primarily for efficiency, i.e., mass production of queens. 



Cristian Radut said:


> How much honey did you got with those emergency queens that you consider fine? Emergency queens are always smaller than normal queens, according to my eyes.
> 
> Yet, when creating emergency cells, the bees choose all kind of larvae, from 1 to 3 days older and first will born the bad queens, raised from old larvae; when get born, in a few hours all the rest of queen cell will be destroyed by her. And the colony remains with "the worst of" queens.
> 
> I wonder why queen breeders graft larvae, use starter colony and finishing colony, instead of making "the best of" queens using Smith's advice... So, i think i'll ask Joe Latshaw for this.


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## Cristian Radut (Jul 15, 2007)

It's not hard to observe that the EQ on the new combs are bigger than those started on dark combs. I would just never go so far to recommend EQ, but it's your choice and i respect that. 

The "first-out" queens raised from older larvae will be always the worst from the whole effective of Q cells, and most of the time only they will survive. 
A first-out queen destroys 4/5 cells in her first hour after the emerging.

Grafting brings you "the best of queens". Grafting Queens (GQ) are always bigger than Emergency Queens (EQ), and as performance, you have more chances to get more honey from a colony with GQ queens. More eggs, more bees, more honey. 

PS: I have a question about something i don't understand: the 4" that Peg referred means "4 cm" or "4 inches"?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

One set of double quotes - " - following a number in digit form is the abbreviation for inches.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

" = inches. ' = feet. # = pound.

One of my sons is 6'2" tall. Which is read "One of my sons is six feet two inches tall".


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## Cristian Radut (Jul 15, 2007)

I wasn't sure... but now it make sense! Now i can tell i'm 70" tall... 

Now, Peg, i imagine that you've been extremely impressed about that 4" queen cell, who would not be? I thought it reached 4 cm, but 4 inches


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## drone1952 (Dec 4, 2005)

Cristian Radut said:


> Grafting brings you "the best of queens". Grafting Queens (GQ) are always bigger than Emergency Queens (EQ), and as performance, you have more chances to get more honey from a colony with GQ queens. More eggs, more bees, more honey.


”Grafting Queens (GQ) are always bigger than Emergency Queens (EQ), and as performance, you have more chances to get more honey from a colony with GQ queens. More eggs, more bees, more honey.”
All queens reared are emergency queens except swarm and supersede queens. My experience tells me that you can get “the best of queens" with emergency rearing method. A lot of people use emergency queens and they are very pleased with them. To get” bigger than Emergency Queens” you can use even Ezi- system, no problems. I do repeat all reared queens a emergency queens except…..


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"I do repeat all reared queens a emergency queens except….."


I disagree with this statement.....swarm queens certainly are not emergencey queens.


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## Cristian Radut (Jul 15, 2007)

Drone, i do remember that on this forum you only had questions, but now you show me unpractical answers. What i meant is that a queen obtained using grafting is generally superior to one that bees get by the "natural emegency way". By grafting, starting, finishing, you'll get superior queens. How can someone say that an emergency queen cell has a larva of proper age, if didn't choosed personally that?


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## drone1952 (Dec 4, 2005)

I’ll stick to my opinion: the best queens are from swarming queens( i can explane why I think so). You can find for sure very good queens between emergency queens. Sorry for asking it’s my way of learning. Reading too. Isn’t yours? Sorry for telling you it’s my way of learning because reading I find out even that it’ s not good to convince other people that you are right. Sorry for telling you this but for the moment I know from asking and reading that all reared queens are like emergency and the only natural way is swarming and supersede so not emergency. Perhaps I’m wrong. This is the way on Forum It’s not necessary to agree with you.
See you soon and let’s change the subject.
PS.
Sorry guy for bother you.I do promise not to start arguing with Cristian Radut I think is useless to try to convince somebody.


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## Cristian Radut (Jul 15, 2007)

Let's see...

1. Even beginners know that the best egg-laying queen are those from swarming, we all know that, but their colonies will swarm again and again. That's why i excluded them from the discussion, for me swarming isn't a bennefit. If you see it as useful, go on...

2. You may start the grafting way of breeding queens using the emergency, but:
- you'll finish them in the finisher collony,
- that collony has a normal life and feeds better the queen, because after these queens get out, in the cell remains a lot of royal jelley; the same applies to swarming or superseding, but not to emergency.
- you don't risk to have a queen of unsuitable/improper age.

3.


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## Cristian Radut (Jul 15, 2007)

for the 3. it was "Thumbs up!"


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