# Improved divided mating nuc.Better for feeding when nights are cold spring/fall



## Lauri

As nights get cold, it gets more difficult to feed the mating nucs I plan to overwinter. At 350' in elevation it was 36.5 degrees here yesterday morning. Quite a nip in the air. Montana/Idaho was 16 degrees this morning. There's no doubt winter is right around the corner.

An inverted mason jar on the screened innner cover works well for feeding in warm weather, but not so well when nights are cold. These mating nucs need warmth as well as feed and a big empty void over the frames does them no good when you're trying to get them to build up their populations. Here you can see Where I used the mason jars and covered them with a burlap sack to retain warmth. But I was short a couple divided deeps and started making them a new way with a one gallon interior feeder. It takes a little more time to construct, but once I got the measurements figured out and my parts all cut out, assembly was reasonably fast.










And the new version:




























Bottom:

I staple a 3/4" x 1" rim around the bottom as a spacer for the attached bottom board:




























When using a pine divider, I leave it a bit long to allow for shrinkage. Plywood would be more stable, but I don't like milling the top with a laminated material.










A few staples permanently attach's the bottom, but since the entrance's are small, I also drill a few small drainage/air holes in the bottom board. But not until after it is painted or you'll just plug them up.




















Screened divided inner cover. I staple the center divider to the screen, but do not staple to the frame, so if the center divider in the hive body is a little tall or short, I can float the inner covers divider to match it.










You get 8 new frames each side with a 3/4" gap. 










Here are the parts. I use 3/4" plywood for the bottom for insulation value + I'm able to salvage used 3/4" plywood scraps fairly regularly from job sites. 










Feeder needs to be removable for cleaning, so I just put a couple dabs of clear silicone on the irregular spots and added a small tight fitting filler piece. After the sicilone dries, it acts like a fitted gasket and can be pulled off when needed.



















The only small downside to this is you can't easily tell if one of the nucs is not taking up feed. Feed uptake is something I pay attention to.


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## Lauri

I've got smaller mating nucs hanging all over the place. Here I am transfering them into an overwintering sized box. Move a short distance with their recognizable nucs, then after they have reoriented, transfer into new divided deep. Then I'll move it about 8" every other day until I get it onto my bench, which is just out of the photo. Now they have room for feed and an increased population.


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## Lauri

My homemade lids are 3/4" x 3" frame with 1 1/2" insulation cut to fit tight. Run a bead of silicone around the rim & top with triple wall polycarbonate. Three screws each side with rubber washers hold it in place.


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## squarepeg

those look like they ought to work perfectly lauri. thanks for sharing.


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## Lauri

I think so. When I have a chance, I'll write a little more about overwintering colonies this small and their behavior & needs come early spring.


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## Mountain Bee

Lauri I really like those half size deep frames that you use in your queen rearing operation and have been looking at preparing some for my own use next year but I just don't think I can find the time to put the work into making them. Is there any other reason you use the half frames other than the fact that they require less resources. I was thinking that deep boxes devided into 3 frame queen castles would be more beneficial in the long run.


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## kilocharlie

Lauri - First of all, NICE POST!

You might try to run a siphon from a mason jar upright above the hive running into the frame feeder, allowing you to monitor feeding. Just a thought, but not good once it freezes. 

Another idea is a float with an "antenna" sticking up. As the stick goes down, the syrup goes down. A float attached to needle swinging over a fulcrum can also act as a guage. How much effort is it worth depends on how many bees you run.

Mountain Bee - both 3-frame and half-frame systems can be made to work. Sharing heat is one of the big benefits. Either setup can be put over a strong colony, separated by a double screen board, the nucs getting the advantage of the strong colony's heat.

If using a 3 x 3-frame in a 10-frame box, it helps to put the strongest colony in the middle (but then, I'm down here in So Cal, surfing in trunks with no wetsuit, and more worried about catching tuna at this time. Please don't hate me.) Your results may vary. Let the bees prove what's right.


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## Lauri

kilocharlie said:


> Another idea is a float with an "antenna" sticking up. As the stick goes down, the syrup goes down.
> .


The problem is the feeder is shared. If one side sucks the whole gallon down and the other side is say- queenless and hasn't taken up anything, I can't tell by looking at the feeder.

For example, here are mating nucs in divided nuc box's newly made up late May. After a short confinement period, when the the cell has hatched, I open up the entrances and offer a quart of 1:1. (I wait to feed because I use the screened hole in the top for ventilation while condfined)










And here is a photo of the next day. The one colony that didn't take up feed needs to be checked.










Heres how that bench looked after 4 weeks. Nice early June queens. Now that I have shipping figured out, I can be more prompt with cycling out the mated queens on a 3 week schedule.


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## Mountain Bee

I guess that is the benefit of those little homemade frame feeders I have seen Michael Palmer use in his mating nuc setups. But they also look time consuming to build.


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## kilocharlie

Lauri - Sorry, I just hoped to figure a way to monitor feed - I know the feeling - monitoring is an important "tell", especially on nucs. Observer nucs and clear feeders is getting unreasonable, unless someone starts making them for sale cheap enough.

Mountain Bee - For the meantime, production runs and assembly jigs are the best answer if you choose that setup. I also tried to make half-feeders (split length-wise) on a CNC, then put them together, but I should have done it in plastic in the first place - it might have worked. The wood was not dimensionally stable enough to seal well. It could be done on a router jig with the right wood, maple perhaps? 

So far, built-up wood is best for my make-it-yourself feeders. I cut parts for 100 feeders, put light brown package tape over the assembly blocks, dip a handful of parts into the glue tray, locate and clamp them together, wipe the glue off the outside with a sponge, staple, pull the parts off the blocks, wipe the glue off the insides, hang them to dry, wipe the assembly blocks clean. Then I heat up a large pot of wax, and dip the entire feeder in the pot, which seals up more often than only sealing the insides. I scrape the excess off the outsides with a paint scraper.

Yep, lots of work.


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## Fishman43

I am getting many of the photos with broken links. Is it just me, or are others seeing the same red X's?


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## JRG13

The first 4-5 were broken for me as well, but only in the second post.


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## Lauri

I can view all the photos.

As an update on this thread, after using this new design for over a month, I notice the nucs with the interior feeder are much more willing to consume more syrup later in fall than the covered insulated inverted mason jar feeder method shown above. Temps not a big factor, my nights were in the mid to high 50's at time of feeding. Day temps 60-70's

These mating nucs put on more weight and continued to grow in populations as compared to the other mating nucs. A big advantage if you are trying to get them to overwintering weight and populations.

The age of the queens were taken into consideration, eliminating the late mated queen 'enthusiasm' effect.


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## Fishman43

They are all now working for me as well...


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## My-smokepole

Lauri what size hardware cloth are you using ? I have Been using some scrape 1/2 but about to buy some more.


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## thebeemanuk

I notice the hive lids are not telescopic are they held on with straps?


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## Lauri

thebeemanuk said:


> I notice the hive lids are not telescopic are they held on with straps?


They are telescopic. That is 3/4" x 3" frame material with 1 1/2 foam. I have about a 1" - 1 1/2" of rim on the bottom edge.(Although this photo shows 2" foam) 



















Before I place the polycarbonate & screw it down, I run a bead of clear silicone around the frame to seal it well.










I am using #8 hardware cloth. I get it by the roll locally, but it is special order and NOT cheap. You can also buy it by the roll at Amazon.com. It's hard to find locally by the foot, and runs about $4.00 a foot if you can find it. I remember when it use to be $1.69 a foot.


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## drlonzo

Lauri, Just wondering, are you planning to use the 8 frame version for queen mating next season or are you only using for the over wintering aspect of things?


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## Lauri

If I start out with a small mating nuc, I always end up transfering it to a larger nuc by mid summer. So I try to use the larger nucs right from the start. I have plenty of bees to stock the nucs and overwintering most of them in place saves me a ton of spring time work. 

I still use the small nucs too, but don't make them anymore.


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## [email protected]

Lauri said:


> They are telescopic. That is 3/4" x 3" frame material with 1 1/2 foam. I have about a 1" - 1 1/2" of rim on the bottom edge.(Although this photo shows 2" foam)
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> Before I place the polycarbonate & screw it down, I run a bead of clear silicone around the frame to seal it well.
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> I am using #8 hardware cloth. I get it by the roll locally, but it is special order and NOT cheap. You can also buy it by the roll at Amazon.com. It's hard to find locally by the foot, and runs about $4.00 a foot if you can find it. I remember when it use to be $1.69 a foot.


I just ordered some at $2.50 a running foot. 36 inch rolls, 100 feet long. http://www.gerarddaniel.com/. I highly recommend them for 8 mesh hardware cloth and stainless steel mesh. Do not buy 5, 6 or 7 mesh from them as it is made in China and you will have 30% loss due to uneven weaves.


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## Lauri

Ohhh..Stainless steel mesh  Probably out of my price range , but I'd love to have some a that. I'll check it out. Thanks.


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## LanduytG

Lauri
Where did you get the polycarbonate? I have seen it before but can't remember were.

Greg


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## Lauri

LanduytG said:


> Lauri
> Where did you get the polycarbonate? I have seen it before but can't remember were.
> 
> Greg


http://mcconkeyco.com/collections/greenhouse-hardcoverings


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## marshmasterpat

Laurie - Any reason for using the triple wall polycarbonate for a roof? 

Just curious, it seems pricey where I found prices. However, being the cheap skate I am, I was thinking about that election sign double walled plastic sheets. Cheap and just seems like your purpose it to keep moisture out. So I was thinking the plastic sheet and insulation under it, and still beating the cost of plywood (which keeps warping). 

Thanks


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## beepro

See the FAQ on osb boards for almost everything.
I use them to make my oav gadget, bee hives and migratory
covers that do not wrap over time. I like to paint and
waterproof them to last a long time. 4 years and still going
strong without wrapping. Care to try them out?


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## Little-John

Dunno if the following has any relevance to this thread - but here's a system I've been using for many years which I find works extremely well. I use insulated inverted jar feeders which are drown-proof, keep the syrup warm, and make it very easy to see if the bees are feeding.



















The jars are placed over 2" (nominal) diameter holes, without mesh, which then allows fondant to be fed from the jars in winter should this be necessary, without any lifting of the crown board. Each full-sized hive is fitted with 4 jars, each nuc 2.










LJ


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## marshmasterpat

BeePro - I might try some out, have been considering that Advantech as well. 

The last bit of exterior plywood I bought is warping like crazy. Got 5/8 instead of 3/4, that was my bad, but this stuff was well painted and has slates glued along the edges to give a slight air space above the top of the frames. Half of them warped and a couple were sitting in the barn. 

Was thinking that insulation layer she uses on her tops for keeping things warm in the winter might help with some summer heat as well. 

Little John - Hope we don't get call for hijacking but got a few questions. 

Do you have issues with the bees chewing on the foam on the inside? I was told it is an issue, but apparently you have gotten away with it.

The circles for you jars, those seem fairly nicely cut, how are you doing it?

Lastly, like the bung plug theory on your hive for openings. Just made a few mating nucs with the same idea and wine corks. 

Thanks, I like those ideas.


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## Little-John

marshmasterpat said:


> Little John - Hope we don't get call for hijacking but got a few questions.
> 
> Do you have issues with the bees chewing on the foam on the inside? I was told it is an issue, but apparently you have gotten away with it.


A very good question. You're quite right - they will trash polystyrene. So - I simply tape some plastic (ex food containers) over the unused holes. As you can see, I've played with using mesh under the syrup jars - which does work ok, and is certainly easier when replacing 'em. But - somehow it didn't 'light my fire'. Perhaps the best compromise would be mesh for syrup, and open (taped over) for fondant ?














> The circles for you jars, those seem fairly nicely cut, how are you doing it?


My secret is out .... 

Nothing more than tin cans of a suitable diameter, with teeth roughly cut into the rim - which easily saws it's way through the polystyrene when rotated. I use an angle grinder with zip disk to cut the teeth - a file would also work, but much slower. The 'teeth' on the can at right have worn smooth from several years of use. The smaller can on the left I made yesterday, for a hive where I don't have quite enough height for the larger jars. (Bit of a ****-up on the design front ...)










Have fun !

LJ

Apologises for any highjacking ...


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## Vance G

I salute you as the master carpenter! I am too cold a country to consider wintering mini nucs but I do winter five frame nucs two stories high in divided deep hive bodies. I do build miller feeders and they work admirably to feed the divided nucs by just placing a queen excluder over them and setting the feeder on top of that. I built some four way mating nucs and I am now wondering if I can't feed four mating nucs the same way. My opening for the bees to traverse is the whole center of the divided feeder.


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## beepro

I'm sure Lauri will give us a good response after we are done here if she is following
this thread.
For my inside Fall/winter feeder I simply use the white plastic weed guard over the canning jars or plastic
bottles. Then rubber band the plastic weed guard in place. There is no leak ever.
Just place the inverted jars on the top bars and put another empty hive box over them.
Each nuc hive will receive a single syrup jar. I also divide my deep hive into a 2 queen side-by-side
set up like Vance. You can further extend the life of the plastic weed guard if 
you place a small piece of window #8 wire under the inverted jar. I just change the worn out plastic since I have
a big bundle of it. All garden stores should carry these. 

Plastic weed guard over syrup jars:


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## marshmasterpat

marshmasterpat said:


> Laurie - Any reason for using the triple wall polycarbonate for a roof?
> 
> Just curious, it seems pricey where I found prices. However, being the cheap skate I am, I was thinking about that election sign double walled plastic sheets. Cheap and just seems like your purpose it to keep moisture out. So I was thinking the plastic sheet and insulation under it, and still beating the cost of plywood (which keeps warping).
> 
> Thanks


Anyone see an issue with this method?


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## Lauri

marshmasterpat said:


> Laurie - Any reason for using the triple wall polycarbonate for a roof?
> 
> Just curious, it seems pricey where I found prices.


I've used it around the farm, greenhouse and barn use. I have scraps available, but even if I had to buy it, I would. I am not comfortable on the table saw and full sheets of plywood are too big for me to handle by myself. Aluminum flashing is not cheap ether. Galvanized metal scraps are available to me, but time consuming to cut & bend. The polycarbonate is easy for me to cut & fabricate, light weight to handle, 100% waterproof and won't deteriorate in wet weather or with UV exposure.
The only downside to those lids are they are quite light and need to be secured in winter weather so they don't blow off. I had previously strained my shoulder (using a framing nailer over head for several days) and really appreciated these light weight lids. 

I bought 22 sheets of slightly damaged triple wall polycarbonate in 6' x 21' sheets off Craigs list a couple years ago for $1500. I see it there for sale on occasion. That was a great deal, but I hate to cut those big sheets up so I'm hanging on to them for now. But deals are out there if you look.


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## Lauri

Here's where I buy it if I get it new:

http://mcconkeyco.com/collections/greenhouse-hardcoverings/products/macrolux-8mm-triple-wall-panels


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## Lauri

If I had small hive beetles, (Which thank goodness I don't!) I would most definitely experiment with using smoked poly to let light in so I could feed protein patties. I'd put the patty on a plastic sheet so beetles couldn't access it from the bottom. I bet a person could make it work.


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## larrypeterson

Lauri,

Thanx for the effort to post this thread. When I see all those mating nucs my mind goes into "hyperdrive'" I am trying to use 1/2 med frames in mini nucs to generate cells, transfer cells and keep a place to store queens. Your carpentry and creative projects are terrific!! Keep up the great work and don't get weak. Best wishes, LP


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## Morris

Lauri,

Compliments on the fine woodworking job.

I noticed in the photo of all the mating nucs that there was no apparent way for the returning queens to distinguish one mating nuc from another. Often colors or landmarks, or symbols on the boxes are used. I don't see any of these techniques used in the photo. How do you prevent the returning queens from entering the wrong box?


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## Lauri

Morris said:


> Lauri,
> 
> Compliments on the fine woodworking job.
> 
> I noticed in the photo of all the mating nucs that there was no apparent way for the returning queens to distinguish one mating nuc from another. Often colors or landmarks, or symbols on the boxes are used. I don't see any of these techniques used in the photo. How do you prevent the returning queens from entering the wrong box?



I usually use different colors when ever possible. But I don't want bunch of bright colors all over my yard. I stick with white, black, dark brown and burned wood tone the most. I use available shrubs, trees, fence rails, rocks, anything I can for_ external_ orienting points. I have very high rates of return, even though the mating nucs are many times side by side on a straight bench. 

If I have identical looking nucs in cardboard transport box's all lined up with virign queens, I sometimes stick a small bunch of fake flowers in between them from the Dollar store. They are very bright, cheap and hold up for years without fading. I use them, but not a lot. If I had issues with returns I'd probably use them more.

https://www.dollartree.com/flowers-bushes/562/index.cat

Here you can see I made a few benches under cover to hold cardboard nucs out of the rain. The espaliered apple tree in the pot as well as the fence panels were plenty to guide the virgins back to the right box.


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## Morris

Lauri,

Thanks for the quick reply. 

Did you know that the cardboard nucs were first tested as walk away splits before being marketed? The parent hives were split multiple times and produced around 20 splits in cardboard nuc boxes. When the property owner saw all those nucs he was upset with the new hives without being consulted. That was the end of a very productive location. It was a learning experience on multiple levels.


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## Ian

Lauri, when feeding your hives with frame feeders during your winter, do you find any moisture related issues?


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## Lauri

Ian said:


> Lauri, when feeding your hives with frame feeders during your winter, do you find any moisture related issues?


No feeding syrup in winter, the feeder just stays in empty.
I top the nucs with a sugar block for the winter months if they are still in a single deep. 










Or I cover them with an excluder and top with good frames from another hive as I do some combining in fall. This way I have an accessable interior feeder and add honey, pollen and more bees to the divided colonies below. Ether way, the feeder below stays put all year, usually in an empty state.



















In spring, I'll remove one of the queens, then let the whole unit combine with the remaining queen. In about 30 days, that gives me a nuc on standard frames to sell and enough well populated filled frames to make at least three mating nucs for the new season.

I'll use that removed queen to first make any worthy colonies that come out of winter queenless, queenright again. Then requeen any colonies that have an aged queen I figure will need to go if it is in a production hive. (Old queens are OK for Grafting needs) Then make up early nucs with the surplus queens.

There's a *big* market for early mated queens here, but I've found it is usually more trouble than it is worth. Folks trying desperately to save a queenless dwindled colony that is on it's last legs by purchasing a queen that is really just coming into it's prime...and usually just ends up getting killed.

I do sell a few if I have them, but am more selective of the circumstances of a sale. I'll sell them for example, if someone has a booming over wintered colony they fear will swarm without splitting.


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## Ian

Okay I thought you were liquid feeding all winter. I was wondering how you would of been able to get away without the pile of issues it creates 
Thx!


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## Lauri

Here's those fake flowers I mentioned I get at the dollar store for some color for orientation if box's are all the same color & lined up.

This bunch has been out in the weather for 2 years without fading. I just whack them on my leg to dust them off now and then.


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