# turf wars



## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

If the property owner is allowing it , then I'd bet nothing.. I would guess it comes down to who gave the farmer a better deal, not who was there first. Definitely doesn't make it right but thats what I would guess is happenin..


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Hmmmmm.....................Turf? What's the whole story? 

How far from your yards? A smart beekeeper will not set on top of another just because of the extra competition on floral sources. Just because you have bees in a geographical area doesn't mean you own access to all of it yourself because you were there first. Do you share with that person exact yard locations so he can have his bees in the same area but not invade where your bees will most likely be foraging? 


I'm the new guy on the block. 2 other commercials around me for honey production. One I worked for and he helped with some of my yards. We always communicate with each other on yard locations if either one of us find a new location to try to make sure the other is at least 1.5 miles away as the crow flies. The other beekeeper who I met through the first(this guy at one time worked for the 1st) was hesitant on sharing yard locations. I would scope out a new area and call him to see if he had bees in the area. At first he wouldn't give any info. It took a few years then he realized I didn't want his yard locations to find my own near his. I wanted to know so my bees could work to there potential and not have to share that forage with his bees. Now he is much more open with his yard locations. I ask to avoid stepping on toes instead of sneaking in on proven territory.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

What does a guy do? Often there's nothing you can do, legally speaking. There are no laws to cover these things, and with no laws, nothing to enforce.

Talk to the guy? Well, yeah, sometimes, but the other guy has to be reasonable gentleman, not greedy...but not too many of these guys around.

Complain incessantly and allow him to ruin your attitude? Often this is the case. If his actions make you bitter and angry, being bitter is like you swallowing poison in the hopes that your enemy dies. 

Strike a compromise? Maybe you could limit the number of colonies coming in. How many colonies are we talking about? How many do you have? How many can the area support?

Do something stupidly illegal? Well, yeah. But just remember in hockey, it's the second guy who enters the fight that gets penalized. He's the first. Don't be the second.

Suck it up and try to get along? Probably. Pray for your enemies? Hard, and we're often not in that kind of mood. Buy him out in a hostile take-over? Well, that's the American way but few can really afford it.

It's a tough situation. Keep us posted.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

We had an out of state beek bringing semis of uninspected colonies in for cranberries, then dumping them wherever he could talk a landowner into allowing it once cranberries were done. I think he figured if they were next to an existing beek that meant it was in a good honey production area. We and the other beeks impacted brought it to the State's attention and it didn't take long for them to handle the situation. We haven't had that particular problem since.
This situation is what pushes many states to go to registered beeyards and the associated definitions.
If this is a local/legal beekeeper and your state has no registration laws, I doubt you have many legal options. 

We have all heard numerous accounts of the dirty tricks and illegal actions that come to play in these territory disputes. 
Let's NOT go there in this thread. Only legal suggestions please.
Sheri


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Depends on the state. In Arkansas, no one can place within 3 miles of you, unless the bees are owned by the land owner.

Whether or not it's enforce, I don't know.

If you have the hives and can handle the honey loss. I suppose you crowd bees in the area and make it non-profitable for him.

*shrugs*


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## mnbeekeeper (Jun 30, 2010)

lets just say we have the county that it is happening in covered for bees. meaning yards of 24 to 32 every 3 to 5 sq. miles. and have for 35+years. once i talked to them and they said the land owner at one of the yards in our area (4 total) was family. we asked the land owner and they said he just showed up one spring lookin for a location. we explained to the land owner and he just wanted to stay out of it. i have thought of setting the bees in there in the spring before they get there!!!! what can ya do if they are clearly moving in cuz of good production and not goin to lie they are producing. checked one of their yards last year a couple times and they had a crop on em.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Are you making a good crop?


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## mnbeekeeper (Jun 30, 2010)

i see where this is goin. yes we are. but who wants to drive by another guys yard one mile before you get to your yard. if i said no what might you say then. not a good beekeeper. knowing both yards so close together make honey makes me think it should all be made in my beehives not the big bad bullys. they are known for this kind of thing thats all ill say about that.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

In many states there are laws that do govern encroachments such as this. In New Mexico, yards are required to be registered. Do most beekeepers register, no probably not. I do register mine for instances just like this. Once your yard is documented and someone else sets down right on top of you, then at least you can report the incident to the State. I believe laws indicate no closer than 2.0 miles line of sight. Its worth checking out in any event.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

mnbeekeeper said:


> i see where this is goin. yes we are. but who wants to drive by another guys yard .


We are all supposed to be friends right. Look at him as a possible asset not a burden. Ya never know. If your bees need to fly that mile for forage you got your bees in the wrong spot.


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## mnbeekeeper (Jun 30, 2010)

lol, beeslave, so you will consider me an asset if i come and put a yard of 32 a mile down the road from you!!! sorry i had to. i hear ya tho.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

I think you are in the Lufkin/nac area. That is the most packed area of commercial beekeepers in the state to the best of my knowledge. 

mike


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How many yards are we talking about? Are they placed on both sides of you on the road or in between your yards?

Have you thought about doubling the colony count in some yards? If the yards are good producers, putting twice as many in them won't effect production. Or maybe you don't like to work more than 32 at a time. That's why some of my yards are the size they are.

Try getting to know him and make him your friend. Ya never know. He could become an assett. Or maybe just an ett.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

mnbeekeeper said:


> lol, beeslave, so you will consider me an asset if i come .


When I'm broke down and my bees are cooking on the truck I'd rather have you rush to help me instead of letting me suffer when it could be your bees cooking on the truck tomorrow. I also might be a little more considerate on how close I set down to you though.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Must be the cold up there but you MN guys are sure a quarrelsome bunch. We just lost 2 orange grove locations to a MN beek who came down and is paying for grove locations. Down here we have never had to pay for a location, orange grove or otherwise. The funny thing is it doesn't matter one whit; we have thousands of groves down here and the owners are usually real nice about letting us in for a gallon or so of honey. So go ahead and spend your dollars; every little bit helps! You can move right in to the grove next door too! No biggy! I'll wave at you when we pass each other out in the woods.


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## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

Ain't yore honey till its in your comb. Set up swarm traps around his yard(s). Use His drones for your new queens.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

You guys whine about turf. In California we haven't worn boxing gloves in a long long time. It gets bloody and ethics are right out the window.


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

fish_stix said:


> Down here we have never had to pay for a location, orange grove or otherwise. T


Wait til they find out about Greening and cant move there bees out in time.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

In Calif they set so close to ya they rub the paint right off the boxes.


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## AstroZomBEE (Aug 1, 2006)

As a commercial beekeeping family that has been all over the east coast for over 50 years this subject comes into play often, but rarely in a negative way. 

And honestly vicinity when talking in miles doesn't really make a big deal, espicially when your yards are small and spread out. Giving that the weather is/has been good enough for a honey flow to take place. We don't even send our bees towards honey regions unless the weather research up to that point of the year shows good possiblity of a flow.

There are so many variables to take in when figuring how many bees an acre can sustain. But given good weather and plenty of forage it is hard to get too many bees per acre. We have noticed the more bees in an area the harder they work to make more honey. And we put around 500 hives per yard, and up to 2000 in some of them where applicable. Our rule of thumb with other beekeepers yards in honey production areas is out of sight out of mind.

We have plenty of beekeeper friends that keep bees just a few hundred yards off from our own. And we realise that this isn't a problem, actually we see it as an incentive. If they are there, they think there is a good chance for honey to be made as well. 

Now we don't actively search for yards specifically near other beekeepers, but it is uncanny how often it does happen. Over the years we have a had a few beeks approach us with problems how close we keep our bees. And the best thing to do is talk it out. Find out who the beekeeper his approach him and work it out *diplomatically*.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Keith Jarrett said:


> In Calif they set so close to ya they rub the paint right off the boxes.


Must be why Keith started using the Paraffin/ Linseed Oil thing.


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## ga.beeman (Mar 29, 2009)

Talk to this guy and see if he is one you can talk to. Explain to him that you have done this for 35 years and you feel like he is to close and see what he says. If he is a respectable beekeeper then he will work with you to make things right. just remember that most guys will do the right thing but a few are just plain rearends and dont care. Good Luck


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Or, take the best wishes of your fellow beekeepers here and get over it. In good years you will both make a crop of honey and in bad years neither of you will make a crop of honey, all things being equal.

Time and time again I have had guys complain to me that such and such a beekeeper is too close, that they set down right on top of me. When I see them in the fall, they had the best year ever. And the other guy didn't move away. So what's the story? More bees make for more honey?

Life is not fair. But I think you will be alright. Especially w/ all your years of beekeeping experience.

Best wishes for an equally beneficial outcome.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

+1.


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## Sweet to the Soul (Sep 1, 2010)

When I started keeping bees 3 years ago I was really nervous about setting up locations too close to existing beekeepers.

I have a Large operator 10 min north of me with 1500 to 2000 hives and another 20 min south of me with 1200 hives. I knew all the locations of the southern beekeeper and had no trouble keeping at least 1.5 to 2 miles away. 

I had never met the northern beekeeper. I did not know any of his locations and was a little nervous about talking to him. I went to see him and check to see if my proposed locations would be too close, he told me that he did not care if I put them across the road from his hives  Really nice guy, but I still kept a respectable distance.


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## Ted (Feb 20, 2000)

Well my Friend I feel your pain I too have the same problem here in the north country and asked the beek not to set so close and he pretty much < said "forget it" >. so remember you own the woods and he is I'm shier hrs away


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Civility?

Like most things in life we live with a lot of unwritten rules. From shaking with the right hand all the way to closing the gate when you leave a bee yard. We live with many.

One of these unwritten rules in beekeeping has been "don't jump on someone else's yards." Its the best practice to follow in beekeeping. Either find new territory or buy someone out. Don't jump yards or steal them. 

There are two types of folks who violate this rule I have learned from years of observation. 

They are generally new beekeepers who don't know the etiquette of beekeeping and those who are plain selfish and don't care about anyone but themselves. 

We all know who the folks in the later category are? Word gets around fast.

Word also gets around if you are someone who hangs around with a yard thief or jumper. 

It is generally best not to deal with YT's and those they associate or befriend. If you haven't been burned before you will be someday if you associated with such folks. If they are willing to jump your yard they are most likely willing to do other things to you also. 

As for what to do when this happens I can't say. Some states have mileage regs. Other places people just use frontier justice. 

All I know is that for civility to rule the day in the long run it is imperative that the rules be followed and enforced.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Keith is right about rubbing the paint off. I pollinated in Cali aprocots and had King richard's bees ten feet across the ditch in blueberries. So what, we were all there to do the job. I hear of stories from the Tupelo region in Florida of what they do to people's bees that move in on top of another beeks location---NOT GOOD. Were I am at, the state of Alabama, there is nobody left of any size to worry about plopping yards in on top of you. I reckon my bees will just die in the heat and the wax run out of the hives if my truck breaks down. I can not expect another beekeeper to come and help. They do not exist. TK


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

opcorn:


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

United we stand, divided we fall!

You have a choice and hopefully you make the right one!? :waiting:

People just need to learn to get along!
Also what happened to the word "RESPECT?" :no:


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## WOpp (May 29, 2009)

Here in NDak we had 2 mile law, We got rid of it long time ago. WE have many 5000, to 15000 hive comerrcial beeks here all running for honey, Some guy like to hide there hives behind hills, tree groves, farm steads. Then they complain when we get a little close. We try to keep 1 mile space, but doesn't allways work that way. We run minimum 64 hive yards and you can see mine. Help your self theres room some where. In SDak we have 3 mile law, It sucks guys place yards every 5 miles just to tie up range, Rancher would like to have hives and cant get a new guy in legaly, That 3 mile thing needs to go. No one has a franchise on some one elses property.


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

if SD didn't have a 3 mile law there would be a train wreck. guys from all over the country would be moving in on top of everybody and ruining it for everyone. back in 1992 a large operation out of Florida placed a semi load of hives across from one of our clover locations on the reservation. they never bothered to ask the land owner permission and tore the heck out of the place. we were left to deal with the complaints nasty phone calls from the tribal council. there are plenty of rainbow chasers out there that just want to move in an area when it looks good. when there are bad years we don't move into ND and set hives on top of everyone. we stay where we are at and don't make much of a crop, hoping that next year will be better. 2006 we didn't even turn an extractor. ended up feeding 1,000,000+lbs of feed to keep the bees alive for the next year. so i feel that there are far more benefits for having mile limit law than not having them.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

One time I was set in wire weed, (wild buckwheat family). First a beek dropped 400 just out of alfalfa pollination about 400 yards from me. Then another beek dropped 120 1/2 mile away and another beek dropped 120 at3/4 mile in the other direction. I was so hot and just knew those bees were not going to make honey. When I did ck them they were plugged. We all made lots of honey. The other guys knew wireweed better than I did.
On the other hand, I was trying to get a foothold in a new area that an old beek had for years. He would set about six divides in each of his yards and split them if they got bigger than 4 frames. He would scream if I got within 1 mile of him. I could make 150lb in this area and he wouldn't fire up a extractor. It was just a shame to see all that bee pasture go to waste.
In so cal we have bee yards with 600 hives during the sage flow.


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## mnbeekeeper (Jun 30, 2010)

where we are in MN it is monoculture farming at its best. if its not a corn or bean field its a subdivisions of new homes. we must select locations that look like there is enough wild habitat left to support the bees. this is not cali. no mass crops to pollinate. nor is it the dakotas huge endless fields of blooming flowers. this is a land that man mostly controls now. all we have left are what ditches they dont mow and what tree lines and wood areas are left(not much) 

the best thing we have is lots of lakes and ponds with wild shore lines maybe a few basswood trees! what the guy that has moved on top of us is doing is trying to squeeze us out of a producing area. its wrong.

there is no talking to this guy. he knows what he is doin. he has been setting on top of smaller guys around him for years. im not talking about johny 2 hives down the block. we run over 2000 have for 35 years. i know of guys around him runing commercial outfits that have had problems with him setting by their yards.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

California has been overcrowded with bees for years. Hives have been poisoned, lids flipped just before a rainstorm, yards set on fire, hives tipped over, hives picked up and set onto the freeway divider strip,tacks in roads etc. Beemen have sat out at night with shotguns guarding their hives.
I do not condone any of those things(other than guarding hives with a shotgun).


I agree with Greg.Some sort of limits need to be placed on yard distance to keep the peace. I mean for honey production .Pollination is a whole different ball game.I know there are some flows that CAN'T be overcrowded with bees, but right after that the bees will starve if not moved.So it is a dilemma -stay and feed or move and maybe crowd someone else.

W just stay here in CA and suffer through the droughts.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Those space limits were initially put in place to reduce spread of disease from one yard to another, too. Honey production is one part of it; disease and parasite management is another.


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