# My Last TB...



## RBar (Jun 22, 2005)

My third TB, probably my last, has now failed...moths chased the bees out, the other two, I am not sure if the moths got them, or the the bees moved out prior to the moths and hornets. 
Ready to give up on TBs...all my Langs are doing well this year.
Too bad, I really wanted them to work.
The two made from 3/4" stock bowed from the inside out at the top, leaving little overlap of the bars...moisture on the inside apparently.
...Also allowing some rather huge, very disturbing, yellow or orange hornets the size of your little finger, take over. 
Of course, these hornets from hell then began to hover in front of my other hives and catch bees to feed their larva. 
(The flame-thrower, which I bought from Harbor Freight to melt ice on sidewalks, made short work of the hornets after kicking over the TB with weapon lit and in hand...
They really didn't have a chance, and I somehow managed to avoid getting stung, though, my kids said that the scene through the window looked rather like Obi Wan fighting an invisible foe with his ill-adjusted light sabre, which looked more like the afterburner of an F16. The Bradford Pear that got in the way of all this probably will survive, but the grass will need re-seeding in various spots...sure glad I was not closer to the house or other valuable object, animal, or small child.)
The other TB I made from all 1.5 inch stock, heavy, with observation glass and sliding covers. It has NEVER blown over like the others, but, the moths seemed to prefer it even to the 3/4" ones. I guess they feel safer there. Watching the wax moths through the observation window is definitely not as interesting as watching bees, even though many of them, like the hornets, were QUITE impressive in size.
Well, maybe I WILL scrape off the moth damage and blast the inside with my trusty flame thrower to sterilize it and try again in the Spring...too late to have one survive this year, even in Tennessee?
Bees don't mind a little charcoal on the inside of their hive, do they?

Roy


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## DaveWilliamsTX (Aug 16, 2007)

Roy, sorry to hear of your troubles - although I would have loved to have seen the hornet massacre with a flamethrower....thats priceless. What kind of top did you have on the hives? Did the hive itself warp (mine are 3/4 ply), or just the bars?


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## crazy hivan (Aug 17, 2006)

Sorry about your hives. Hornet swatting is my favorite afternoon pastime. About the 3rd week of July I started open feeding my TBH, soon the hornets started showing up for there fill. I did notice they would take a bee some times but I put up with it as I figured it was part of nature and they weren't bothering the hive itself. But then I notice that they were just killing bees if they got in there way near the feeder and wouldn't even take them for food. I have a small shovel, actually an entrenching tool, works great as a swatter. Most afternoons I will sit on a bucket by the feeder for an hour or so an waylay these hornets with the shovel. The first afternoon I nailed about 15 or so now a good afternoon is maybe 5. These hornets will fight amoung them selfs at the feeder and some times I can nail two which are squabbling in one swat. The best is when I really tag one and get a nice clank from the shovel and see his carcass fly about 15 yards. going, going gone. If i knew were there nest was I might break out the roofers tourch also.

stu


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## RBar (Jun 22, 2005)

DaveWilliamsTX said:


> Roy, sorry to hear of your troubles - although I would have loved to have seen the hornet massacre with a flamethrower....thats priceless. What kind of top did you have on the hives? Did the hive itself warp (mine are 3/4 ply), or just the bars?


Dave,
I had a gable roof, framed with wood with tin roof. The bars are mostly all OK, natural warpage, the sides bowed, or flared, out at the top edge, just above of where I attached the legs, the entire length: at the commas below, end view. 
'V'
Plywood...hmmm....maybe ONE more TBH after all...
-Roy


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## RBar (Jun 22, 2005)

crazy hivan said:


> Sorry about your hives. Hornet swatting is my favorite afternoon pastime. About the 3rd week of July I started open feeding my TBH, soon the hornets started showing up for there fill. I did notice they would take a bee some times but I put up with it as I figured it was part of nature and they weren't bothering the hive itself. But then I notice that they were just killing bees if they got in there way near the feeder and wouldn't even take them for food. I have a small shovel, actually an entrenching tool, works great as a swatter. Most afternoons I will sit on a bucket by the feeder for an hour or so an waylay these hornets with the shovel. The first afternoon I nailed about 15 or so now a good afternoon is maybe 5. These hornets will fight amoung them selfs at the feeder and some times I can nail two which are squabbling in one swat. The best is when I really tag one and get a nice clank from the shovel and see his carcass fly about 15 yards. going, going gone. If i knew were there nest was I might break out the roofers tourch also.
> 
> stu


THESE hornets are bigger than "swatting size"...HUGE. They sound wicked, and look even worse. Could they be Japaneese Hornets? I have never seen hornets this size before.
Here was my answer to them:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91033

(Disclaimer: This member accepts no responsibility for injury or damages incurred by employing the technique described above. Should you decide to disregard this warning, insure fire departments and hospitals are easily accessible.)

These guys DO look a LOT like the hornets in the film below but they are probably just some mutated, well fed, version of Vespa Crabro (on cocaine):
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/10/1012_051012_hornet_video.html

Defnitely NOT "Gentle Giants" as one website says...

-Roy


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## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

Bummer about your TBHs, but wax moths are not to blame, they are a symptom not a cause. Wax moths are always present but bees never let them get a hold. When bees decline rapidly or disappear the wax moth population explodes in a matter of days.

If your TBHs are doing poorly in a site where Langs are booming it suggests there are environmental problems with the TBHs: heat, humidity, etc. The simplest change to shotgun a solution is replace the bottom with #8 hardware cloth. If your TBHs already have a screened bottom it will take more analysis.

The problems you have endured illustrate how useful it is to have compatibility between your Langs and the TBH.

You may not be in the mood to build another TBH but if you do then consider building a long box Lang (http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/lh/lh.html). This would let you move frames between the TBH and Langs e.g if the TBH is weak, give it some brood from a thriving Lang. You can even swap brood nests between Lang and TBH, or do splits or....

There is over a century of written advice on how to manage Langs and local beeks can mentor from their experience. TBHs require differences/modifications to management techniques and the web is about your only resource.

If your Langs are thriving without treatments I'm surprised that your TBHs have beeen such a disaster. Possibilities may be too large an entrance (most ferals have tiny entrances) and/or too much space (use follower boards).


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Could you be seeing the European Hornet:

http://www.muenster.org/hornissenschutz/hornets.htm

Or the Cicada Killer:

http://ww2.lafayette.edu/~hollidac/cicadakillerhome.html

I don't believe the Japanese version has made it here yet? Hopefully never!! You never can tell these days, so nut will find a reason sooner or later.


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## BeeKeep (Mar 30, 2006)

*Asian Hornet ?*

" . . . allowing some rather huge, very disturbing, yellow or orange hornets the size of your little finger, take over. Of course, these hornets from hell then began to hover in front of my other hives and catch bees to feed their larva."

The ONLY hornet of this size of which I (non-expert) am aware is the Asian Hornet.

While I've not heard any reports of the Asian Hornet appearing as yet in the US, it has been found in France after slipping thru customs in some chinese pottery. If it can slip through European Customs, we'd be naive to think it could slip through US Customs.

If you're even the least unsure of your hornets identification and think it could possibly be the Asian Hornet you should report it, collect a few for identification / analysis.


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## RBar (Jun 22, 2005)

*Follow-up*

Well, I DID try another TBH this year, on a lark.
The hornets from hell of last year notwithstanding...
I sawed out some solid triangle pieces to put in the ends of a strong lang to get some brood started, they happened to reward the effort with a nice queen cell to boot...

In short, the seem to be going strong in the same hive in which I assaulted the hornets with the flame thrower last year...see earlier post, Sept. '07 I think.

I am keeping the flame thrower handy just in case the hornets are planning a rematch, but the bees seem to be pretty strong this year. Earlier start probably did the trick.

The wind is pretty bad up here on the ridge, I have to devise a better top that will not keep blowing off. This hive also blew over once last year...needs legs closer to 45 degrees I would think...right now they are 45 degrees OFF THE angled side...looks good, but not quite enough for the wind here...

Roy


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## RBar (Jun 22, 2005)

*Latest TBH iss THRIVING!*

Latest TBH iss THRIVING! 
Sure glad you guys talked me into trying again...
I am amazed how calm this hive is!

RBar


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Nice to have ya back. What made you try another?


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## RBar (Jun 22, 2005)

*Good Question, Derek...*

Derek,
GOOD QUESTION! Well, I had the hives built, cleaned them up last year after the hornets.

But, that's not why...

Had extra queens to play with this year...good build up...why not?
Besides, I refuse to let the hornets have the last say...these will be watched much more closely this year...

Again, that's not really why...

TBHs really require us to be more in tune with the bees themselves...while I will always have my Langs, or Long Langs, the TBHs will teach me more than those will.
But, I suspect, still not the reason...

My first experience with bees, and a Top Bar Hive was...I guess about 45 years ago now, was finding a swarm in my family's yard while playing. I didn't know quite what it was, ran and told my dad about it. 
He then ran to the shop and quickly nailed a box together, then laid little wood strips cross the top, then threw a cover together. He told me he had kept bees as a kid, and helped his uncle with his bees, and that he was going to put all the bees in the box to make us some honey. 
I envisioned he would be there for several days picking the individual bees off and putting them in the hive...how he would get them to stay in there, was another puzzle to me at the time! 
I guess in about 10 minutes, he had the box under the swarm, on top of a bed sheet as I recall, then shook the limb so that most fell in, the remainder on the sheet in front of the hive. He then took his pocket knife and tapped the back of the box and told me he was "walking (calling) them in". Sure!
But, amazingly he WAS able to direct them to march straight into the hive! It was only later that I learned that tapping probably had little to do with it if the queen was safely inside. 
Anyway, a couple of concrete blocks under the chestnut tree, and we were in the bee business.
It was not long until we had some real honey to reward us, it was a strong hive. I remember that it was difficult to harvest as the bars were not as carefully spaced as I now know they should be. So, much of it was consumed on the comb...amazing stuff! What generous creatures, I remember thinking...I still think that.

I began to notice, when we were out hunting in the fall, my dad would also hunt bees. 
He would set out some jelly, toss a bit of flour on a gorged bee, then watch the direction of its flight...then look at his watch. After some time, it would return, he would point and tell me that a bee tree was "over there" and about how far. The first time I did not believe him, and told him that. He smiled, picked up a hatchet and his Colt .22 revolver (for Rattlers), and told me to follow. 
Sure enough, about 200 yards into the woods, he pointed the pistol into the air and told me to look down the sights...there was a hole in a tree, about 15 feet up...bees were coming in and out. He then took the hatchet and chopped a small "X" in the bark at the base of the tree, said that it was the traditional way to "claim" a bee tree as one's own find...so others would not harvest it. He explained that it was the "wrong time of the year" to take rob the tree "this" year. There are no doubt dozens of "X"s out there on Waldens Ridge somewhere, as we never went back after a single one of them.

The next couple of years we doubled the number of hives we had each year from that first swarm in our yard...a few years later, sadly,we moved and the new owners took over the bees.

Since then, I have kept bees pretty much all the time when living anywhere I could have them...using more "modern" equiptment, of course. 
'Funny thing, as good as the new fresh honey on the comb IS every year, it always is "almost" as good as those first mixed up combs were, 40+ years ago...the primitive bars certainly did not degrade the taste one bit!

My dad is still alive, now 81, on dialysis, and requiring continuous care in the local nursing home. On weekends, when he feels like it, we "break him out" of the "Army Camp" as he calls it, to visit.
Oncew here, he ALWAYS has to stroll over and check out the bees, as if visiting with some old friends.
Recently, looking at one of the frameless TBar Hives in my back yard, he got quite excited, studied it crefully, and was provoked to ask me "who had taught" me to build the hive from scratch like that...

"You did, dad".

That's why, I guess.

Roy


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## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

*You should give Abbe Warre hives a try...*

it's a good system (so I hear). I'm going to start one next year.


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