# Deformed wings on some of the lady's



## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Pull your honey supers off and treat.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

If you are taking honey, wait till after your flow. If you arn't taking honey (or planning on it) treat now.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

You have to weigh the pros and cons of treating now or keeping the flow. If you do not treat, your hives will surely die in the winter....is that an acceptable loss if you get all the honey you can?


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

If the value of the expecting honey has more worth than a strong hive, let your bees work. If not, forget all future honey flows, treat now.


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## Mrmizilplix (Jul 7, 2010)

what about with the nuc's? I have 3 in 5 frame Boxes,
go ahead and treat them to???


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## Mrmizilplix (Jul 7, 2010)

and it's August.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

honeyshack said:


> You have to weigh the pros and cons of treating now or keeping the flow. If you do not treat, your hives will surely die in the winter....is that an acceptable loss if you get all the honey you can?


 First of all, you don't know that they will die for sure this winter if you don't treat. I go COMPLETELY treatment free, and I have had DWV(deformed wing virus) in some hives for a couple seasons already. All hives have mites to some degree, you can't avoid them. My hives still have great brood patterns, are strong in bees, and produce lots of honey. The only time I see bees with deformed wings they are on the ground crawling, I have never seen them in the hive or on the entrance board. I have even seen healthy worker bees in the grass trying to carry away live deformed bees from the hive. I have plain Italian bees, no Russians, or any type of hygenic strains. I still say that the only solution to conquering mites is to let the bees handle the problem. Treating in my opinion only prolongs the mite problem we are going to have in the beekeeping community as a whole. Sorry I sort of got off topic a bit, but I had to vent. John


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

jmgi said:


> . I go COMPLETELY treatment free, and I have had DWV(deformed wing virus) in some hives for a couple seasons already. All hives have mites to some degree, you can't avoid them. My hives still have great brood patterns, are strong in bees, and produce lots of honey.


Then i have to ask, what is your honey production like? Is it in line with your state or area average? Or is it higher or below? And if you see the DWV bees on the ground, how is it you do not see them in the hives?

The words "lots of honey" has different meanings to different people. If anyone however wants to gauge how their honey production is, they need to compare it to the state or area average.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

I have seen a few post where some like for nature to take it's coarse letting the mites run there coarse if the hive is hygienic they will get rid of a lot of mites buy pulling brood out that are infected with mites.

Hoping the strong survive and when they do most may think they have a strain that show some resistance to the mites encounter.

Here are some thought I have been pondering.
Say they do survive and make it through the winter and look good in the spring there is some other factors that could be the reason that they did pull through the winter into spring looking good.

It's more than just Hygienic that made there survival possible.
#1 If you had a good laying queen that raised more brood than what the mites could inf estate.
#2 This is made possible by a nectar and pollen flow at the critical time
#3 or they could of had more pollen and honey stores and with a little stimulation feeding to spur them on to raise lots of brood.

The only bees that make it through the winter til spring are the bees that have been fed good while in the brood stage and the mites have not latched onto them, weaken them by sucking the life out of them.

If you treat, treat now to kill the mites so the ones raised in Sept,Oct will be the healthier ones that make it till spring

One thing I have not figured out some don't treat when mites are bad to help them BUT when they are out of stores they will FEED so they will survive.

To me a true survivor is one with no intervention from man

I would use apiguard or the formic acid pad 

Be careful with the apiguard when it is 90 and above if you get the 6lb tub don't put on a full dose (50 Gr) read instructions - may be *1/2*, and this will depend if a (*double deep*) or if in singles cut back dosage more, as the box size get smaller. Then in 2 weeks after the first dose, if the weather cools off put on a little more that what the first dose was.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Velbert said:


> To me a true survivor is one with no intervention from man
> 
> I would use apiguard or the formic acid pad


I don't think I understand. Arn't these two statements contradictory?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

honeyshack,

My intention was not to hijack the thread started by Mrmizilplix, so I will take my responses to you and others to a new thread in Diseases and Pests. John


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> I don't think I understand. Arn't these two statements contradictory?


Didn't Intend to just compare the last to sentences but if you are shooting to have survivor bees. Just not treating for mites don't make survivors.

If when they get low on stores about to starve and you have to feed them to get the through why not treat for mites before they die and save them from the mites like you saved them from starvation. Just don't breed from this type.



The last sentence was just to let them know if i were to treat I would use one of those treatments


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Velbert,

Do you think it is possible for the average common honeybee (excluding Russians, or any other recently developed hygenic strains) to become hygenic if left to their own instincts over some period of time, without human interference (treatments)? I would venture to guess that most people would say NO WAY. I cannot pinpoint exactly why my bees that have mites continue to not only survive, but prosper. As you say, there are many factors that contribute to a colony's survival year after year. My management style and goal is doing things as natural as possible, and still be able to run a large number of hives as my sole income. I let my bees build all comb naturally, foundationless, I don't feed sugar syrup to build them up in spring, or to boost their stores for winter, I leave more than enough honey on the hive in the fall to get them through any winter scenario. If I need to feed for any reason, I feed them frames of their own honey that I keep in reserve. I don't feed pollen substitute either or any other nutritional formula's. I eventually plan to trap my own pollen for that purpose. 

Another thing, you seem to think that a good queen can out produce mites, thus the hive can stay ahead of them and survive, I don't think so. The answer is not in out producing the mites progeny, you will lose every time. John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

>Just don't breed from this type.

Velbert, Not breeding from them is one thing, but my concern is keeping the chemicals out of the hive, do you not think that these "treatments" just may have a bad effect somewhere down the road? We know that the residue of chemical treatments gets in the wax, and can't be removed. That's just the tip of the iceberg. John


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## Mrmizilplix (Jul 7, 2010)

my bees started as Russian, the new queens were open
mated. the new queens(that I found) are dark, mabey
a Russian/Carni mix. should be a prety hygenic bee.
also I have seen the bees with deformed wings inside
the hives. what I like is the 2 oposing views telling me
to do 2 different things. I'm torn, I'd hate for my bees
to die off from not treating, but, I think I'll have to
agree with the treatment free method.
that said, I treated 4 hives and left 3 untreated.
I went middle of the road with it.
but not treating makes sense for future mite resistant
bees.
I love this forum!! thank you VERY much for everyones
advice!!!


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

jmgi said:


> Velbert,
> 
> Do you think it is possible for the average common honeybee (excluding Russians, or any other recently developed hygenic strains) to become hygenic if left to their own instincts over some period of time, *YES I Do* without human interference (treatments)? I would venture to guess that most people would say NO WAY. I cannot pinpoint exactly why my bees that have mites continue to not only survive, but prosper. As you say, there are many factors that contribute to a colony's survival year after year. My management style and goal is doing things as natural as possible, and still be able to run a large number of hives as my sole income. I let my bees build all comb naturally, foundationless, I don't feed sugar syrup to build them up in spring, or to boost their stores for winter, I leave more than enough honey on the hive in the fall to get them through any winter scenario. If I need to feed for any reason, I feed them frames of their own honey that I keep in reserve. I don't feed pollen substitute either or any other nutritional formula's. I eventually plan to trap my own pollen for that purpose.
> 
> Another thing, you seem to think that a good queen can out produce mites, thus the hive can stay ahead of them and survive, I don't think so. The answer is not in out producing the mites progeny, you will lose every time. John


A good young laying queen for a period of time can lay more brood than what the mites can breed . the % of mite infection is way down if this happens just at the right condition and timing for instance

Here I am in permanent locations and several yards have a dearth period of about 4-6 weeks it may vary from year to year from last of June til the last of Aug. The Queen slows way down even some times stops laying

Then if we have some rain the late Summer and fall flowers start blooming, and when they have set for awhile with out much brood and this late summer and fall flowering begins and the pollen and nectar start coming in the young laying queen will go into action on laying lots of brood for a few weeks.

By her doing this there is a lot higher % of bees that are not effected from the mites 

Had 2 yards yard A yard B about 1 1/2 miles apart ther abouts

yard A was where my mating nuc were Got queens mated in yard A these queens were from the same breeder queen (non mite Resistant Breeder carn.) from the same day graft and mated with in 2-3 days of each other.

ReQueen all production hives in yard A & yard B The next year about middle of Aug there was a fair flow in yard B but yard A was no flow 

Mite count % was higher in yard A(no Flow) 3-4 frames of scattered brood. In yard B they had 6-8 Frames of nice Healthy brood.

I would uncap brood and count the cells uncapped, then the cells uncapped with mites to get my % and did ramdon uncaping 10 cell or so in one area would do 50 or so cells. Allso caught ramdon bees and look them over and get you a % on you live bees 

5 cell with mites out of 50 gives you a 10% mite infestation

Yard A had over a 20% mite count (no Flow queen not laying much)
Yard B had 8%-10% mite count the % of brood compared to mite infestation. the queen was laying more brood than what the mites could infest. So yes they can out lay the mites.

And these bees that are not being mite infested will be your healthier bees that will make it through the winter 

and Yard B came through the winter with lot stronger hives didn't lose a one of them

Yard A was about 1/2 the strength and lost 2 of them in late winter


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Mrmizilplix said:


> my bees started as Russian, the new queens were open
> mated. the new queens(that I found) are dark, mabey
> a Russian/Carni mix. should be a prety hygenic bee.
> also I have seen the bees with deformed wings inside
> ...


That hive that survived the winter may been more mite resistance but it may have not been any more than the one that died.

it could have had a better laying queen that kept it stronger more % of the brood was not effected by the mites. you may of feed the other hive an that let them raise more brood that got them through.

What i am trying to say here in these post, is that a survivor colony is from more that just being hygienic toward the mite, the survival % will in increase with a good younger laying queen good fall nectar And Pollen flowers (flow not to strong to crowded out the queens laying.Make sure you have enough honey storage room on the hives)

And the Hive you lost could have been just as good of hygienic behavior it could partly been because the queen was not a good laying queen or if you didn't give it feed soon enough when it stors got low

So you need to keep good records to evaluate each situation and not just think because one survived it is has good hygienic to fight off mites

Ask you self why you think that particular hive survived what have you done for this hive that was not done for the hive that didn't make it.

You could have not supered it quick enough the honey flow was heavy and the queen was crowded out for brooding room so the % of mite to brood ration has increased later will cause more brood infested with mites entering the cells


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Velbert,

I see that you are very thorough in your monitoring of mite populations, and that is commendable, you obviously take it seriously which enables you to manage you hives accordingly. 

Everyone's situation is unique, the fact that your particular situation in some of your yards benefitted the bees ability to contend with the mites, or so it seems, indicates to you that some queens can out produce the mites, and they very well may have for a time, but is there something here that could work for any beekeeper in any situation against the mite? I'm looking for that magic bullet, I believe it's out there, and I believe that there are a few people who already have it, I would like to believe that I am on the right track, although I'm sure I will have to tweak a few things yet. John


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

John 

I think there is, Keep a good young laying Queen from mite resistant stock and make sure they have good stores or will be in a place with a good fall honey. Also bees are more Hygienic when they are able to collecting nectar and pollen from the field than when there in a dearth. (moral is up).

Had a Russian Hive on it's 2.5 season 1st year made about 80 lbs honey didn't treat ( wintered Great) next year going gain buster it made 160 lbs 
left it in 3 10 fr deeps 1 was a deep full of honey no treatment 

about the middle of Feb it had a cluster about the size of my fist it didn't make it. queen was getting older 

If you got good resistant stock ( survival I think shows a degree of resistance) I would raise myself some queen from them. 

A few years back before I started using resistance stock I also was treating with apistan us it for about 10 years in a row

that last year I used it they were more mites in the hive when i took it out than when i put it in. But most of queens were good layers and young they still averaged about 80 lbs per hive this is excellent for my part of the country.


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