# It didn’t work well for me.



## MethowKraig (Aug 21, 2011)

Try a leaf blower. Use the nozzle that is a slot. Set the boxes aside and then close up the hive. Then, one by one, set each box on end on top of the hive with frames vertical. Blow through the frames, blowing the bees out in front of the hive. Probably will have to use your hive tool to spread the frames and may have to turn the box around once or twice. 

Make sure you don't have loose strings hanging from your veil. They get sucked into the air intake and tangled there.

Fast and easy.

"Met How" Kraig


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I had that in the back of my mind at first which is why I put the boxes in front of the hives. Now they are not happy and I am reluctant to use brute force to drive them out of the boxes. There is major bearding going on with both hives right now. At first it was only one hive now it is both. I am not going near the hives or the lone box with four frames left in it until tomorrow morning so I am not dealing with 100,000 bees who are rightfully mad at me.

I also got the frames in the lone box somewhat separated so they can't cluster as easily and keep warm. It's more hoping that they will pick a hive out to spend the night instead of staying with the frames of honey.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Ace,

Just suit up, fire up the leaf blower and blow them out. You're the boss, not the bees. They'll be fine.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

If there is not a nectar flow going then the bees will stay and rob the honey out of the box of frames if left out. When that happens, they get into robbing mode attitude and it gets to be quite a frenzy, which sounds like what might be happening with you. If you seperated a queen from her hive, this could also cause 'enemy activity' attitude from them as well, but it kinda sounds from here like you are in a dearth or very slow flow.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Yes, I would say the flow is over for this area. And indeed there is a cloud of bees over the four frames left in the other box. I am not concerned about loosing the honey. I will have plenty and if it boost another hive in the area that is fine too. Don't mind helping my neighbors out.

Hopefully I didn't loose a queen. One hive was in a massive frenzy but it is much calmer now. Tomorrow we are going to have another unusually warm day so we will see if it starts up again and hopefully I can get those other frames out of there where they are empty or not.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Ace,
I made a couple of bee escape boards. Plenty of designs on the net. The one I made has a 1 1/4 hole with two triangles, one inside each other at 3/8 and #8 mesh. I put it on, give a few puffs, put the cover back on. I usually come back the next day. 95% or more are gone. Very manageable. Can't advise how long before the majority of the bees go down. Maybe someone else can. 
You do not want to leave it on more than a day or so as the super will no longer be defended.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If the bees in the hive can't get back through the bee escape then how can it be robbed? do these bee escapes allow the queen to get out if she is in the box? This might be a good option for me. Thanks.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Ace,
I assumed we were talking about supers of honey. Doesn't have to be. I've used mine to consolidate before combining and other manipulations. Can not advise on the queen thing. Any time I used it, I knew where she was and was not in the super I wanted to empty. Robbing should not an issue but SHB, ants, etc. could be if you have them in your area and you allowed the supper to be unguarded too long. For a small number of hives, time on your side, working alone, and hate the smell of bee go,,,,,,,works for me. Not hard to build.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Abandonment works well under ideal conditions. It fails catastrophically under less than ideal conditions.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm#abandonment

You have to be in a flow, you have to do it just before it gets dark, and there can't be any brood in the boxes. If you go too early in the day you may get robbing. If there is no flow you WILL get robbing in a matter of minutes. If you go too late the bees won't fly back because it's dark. If you pull boxes that have brood in them, the bees will not leave.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

I use the triangular bee escapes like Rick mentions. First I set a bottom board then one of the escapes before setting the supers. I also top it off with another bee escape and an upside down bottom board (for a top entrance) Works well. There is no robbing with the escapes in place. I use a queen excluder to keep her in the brood boxes. I suppose the queen could get out quite easily. Would she return to the hive is my concern.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Years ago ALL innnercovers had an oval opening to accept a bee escape. Bee escapes are cheap, insert properly in the innercover, and put below all supers you need evacuated. It is slow, but fairly idiot proof, unless you put holes in your supers.

You wil find out why bee blowers where invented.(A leaf blower is NOT the same, much less powerful than a real blower).

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The super holes can't be taped up?

Yes Michael, I have learned. There is another condition though even if there is NOT brood in the box they may not leave because they don't want to.

An interesting observation that I did not mention was something that looked like a waggle dance. I didn't observe all the boxes but the one with the four frames that were left out had a number of bees doing a waggle dance. I have no idea what that was all about.

Update:
The four frames are stripped out clean as a whistle. Hives seem to be acting normal. How long if ever will it take for the bees to go back to their good nature? One hive is missing an inner cover and the outer cover doesn't fit down tight. The box that is on top now has a ton of burr comb on top of the frames.

I did an extraction of the 12 frames pulled. Is it a bad idea to let the bees clean the extractor because of the robbing episode?


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## Beev (Jul 16, 2011)

Michael, what is your approach when you are using top entrances? Do you just set the supers on their own bottom board with an escape between them? Do they need to be close to their own hives or does it matter?


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## ParanoidBeek (Aug 1, 2010)

One thing I learned when using the triangle escape method. Make sure you have no openings above the triangle. After putting on my triangle escape board, I put on the honey super and on top of that, a vented inner cover, which has a top entrance. Once my bees left the super, it was open to all, and robbing started drastically , stealing all the honey, and killing many of the bees from that hive that tried to fight them off. It was a massacre with bees just rolling out of the top entrance in balls fighting. Thats one thing I won't have to experience twice to learn.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, what is your approach when you are using top entrances? Do you just set the supers on their own bottom board with an escape between them? Do they need to be close to their own hives or does it matter? 

Usually I just wait for cold weather and the bees won't be in the supers. But barring that, if it's early and there is a flow I do abandonment. If it's after the flow but before it turns cold, then I usually set an escape on a bottom board, stack supers from more than one hive on it and put another (upside down of course) on top. In 24 hours they are usually mostly empty.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

can you explain "put another upside down of course"? If the bees didn't leave my boxes when they were tipped on end why would they leave through a bee escape. That part baffles me.
I still can't get over the paranoia of having a queen in the supers. If the bee escape will work on the hive and the queen can get out of the escape into the hive that is the way I will go. Time is of no concern for me. No all I got to do is find a design on what makes them work.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ace are you still going to spend a day working with whichever commercial beekeeper it was who offered you?

You should, what you learn will amaze you.


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## Beev (Jul 16, 2011)

Ace, he means to close off the stack of supers with an escape rather than a top, so you would have to put it on upside down to let bees out but not back in.

If the supers have no brood in them, just capped and uncapped honey, the queen probably won't be strolling around in there. She'll be in the brood nest.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Beev said:


> If the supers have no brood in them, just capped and uncapped honey, the queen probably won't be strolling around in there. She'll be in the brood nest.


About three weeks or less back I did have brood in the fourth and fifth medium. It was a surprise to me at the time. I was taking frames out one at a time and discovered them in the middle. I didn't think of tipping the box on the end so you could see the bottom of the frames to check for brood. That is one of the great things about this forum. People are willing to tell you a better way. Usually you have to tell them what you did wrong at first and I have no problem with that.

Old timer, I am willing to spend a day with anyone when I have time if the offer still stands. My brother got flooded prior to Irene (pipe break) and I am helping him refurbish half his house. He lives a couple hours away from me so I am away for half a week at a time.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm going to the local bee meeting tonight. Opened my mind by not messing with bees today. Saw one robber cheerfully pollinating my tomatoes, which is why I cheerfully got bees to begin with...

Gypsi


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Why would anyone use anything other than a fume board?

I sure I'm missing something but I don't see many advantages to any other method except the blower for large operations. The blower method looks a little hard on the bees?

Just asking... Maybe I should try some of these ideas and learn for myself.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mbeck said:


> Why would anyone use anything other than a fume board?


And I feel you got to be out of your mind to use a fume board. Honey is a natural wholesome food that requires no chemical processing. Why add chemicals?


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Aren't some of the fume board liquids all natural?
Bee quick?

My understanding is that Is that Butyric Anhydride evaporates completely and it is nearly undetectable in honey? 
I don't know the correct answer to chemical safety but here is an interesting link......
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa/microchem/resid/2005-2006/annuapp3be.shtml

I think that honey bees may bring things into the hive of greater concern than a couple minute blast from a fume board.
I don't know???


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why would anyone use anything other than a fume board?

Because I don't want "ode to vomit" in my honey...

>Aren't some of the fume board liquids all natural?

They still aren't honey.

>Bee quick?

Benz-aldehyde.

It's not difficult to get them out anyway, it just depends on understanding the current issues (flow, dearth, cold, warm, brood in the supers, no brood etc.)

The simplest for me is to wait until there have no brood in the hive and the cluster is "hunkered" down from the cold. Easy as pie then. But I always have to be prepared to play it by ear. If I'm running out of supers in a flow I use abandonment. It's seldom that I have to harvest in the dearth after the flow but before it turns cold, but if I do, I just use the escapes.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Bee Go (Butyric Anhydride) has been safely used as a bee repellent for many, many years. The vast majority of honey commercially harvested is done with Bee Go or similar repellants. In our operation we have found it takes only about 1 gallon for every 70 to 80,000 pounds harvested. To my knowledge no one has ever challenged the safety of its use. When properly handled and applied absolutely no odor can be detected in the honey whatsoever....NONE. A recessed fume board is used so the chemical never comes in direct contact with the honey, and anyone who has ever worked with it realizes how quickly it evaporates (in low humidity an application may not last much longer than 10 minutes. Our chemicals and fume boards are left outside and as a result you can walk into our honey house any time during the extracting season and you will not be able to smell a trace of it anywhere. While prudent handling precautions should be taken, in the 30+ years we have used it no one has ever been burned by it or sickened by being around it. Benzaldehyde, on the other hand, I would not recommend (though perhaps improvements have been made in its formulation) as granules will form when it dries and those granules can be inhaled. With all that said I am not sure that I would recommend someone with just a few hives to use any of these products as some of the other techniques described here and a little common sense are all that is really needed to take off a few boxes of honey.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>To my knowledge no one has ever challenged the safety of its use.

Well, it's not an approved food safe chemical, and as far as challenging its safety, Jim Fischer used to do so almost weekly...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And he had his own honey super removal chemical too, didn't he?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >
> 
> Well, it's not an approved food safe chemical, and as far as challenging its safety, Jim Fischer used to do so almost weekly...


Let me re-phrase (kind of silly for me to state "no one" especially on here). Its approved for use by the FDA in the manner that it is used and I am aware of no contamination of honey that has ever resulted from its proper use. Jim Fischer? Seriously? You heard it here first folks. "MANUFACTURER CHALLENGES COMPETING PRODUCT". Actually I have no bone to pick with Bee Quick, never used it, it may be quite good but he has had a lot of supply problems.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

At least down here,,, bee quick does not keep up with bee go... our experience for what it;s worth. In the cool of the fall we have to blow them out too...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I love it. You guys even fight among yourselves...

Fume boards are not for me. It may be the choice of beekeeper with 50 years of experience and millions of pounds of honey harvested but it will never be a practice for me. I am willing to see and hear what everyone has to say and do but I can guarantee that everything I see and hear is not for me.

Update on hives:

May girls are back to normal. This morning I opened the hive that had burr comb on top of the frames preventing a good seal of the top cover. I pulled the box and set it in front of the hive on end and cleaned off the burr comb and gobs of propolis. Then I pulled the half spacer off the hive that was under the super and put the medium chocked full of honey back on the hive. Added the inner cover and outer cover so it is totally back to normal.

I am off to research bee escapes.

Michael, I think the difference was last year it was much cooler. This year it was cool at night but unusually warm during the day. Which I thought would have been better. Now I know.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

To use abandonment I have always leaned the honey supers up against the entrance so that the bees could walk home at night. If you just stand the super on end in front of the hive, bees that have never flown and don't know where there hive is will probably never leave. Touching the entrance I think that they can smell their queen and walk up the super and into the entrance. It has always worked for me if the nights are cool (50 or less) and there is no brood. 

For 15 years we just pulled each frame, shook and then brushed the bees off and put the frame in an empty box....repeat. Now I use Bee Quick and a fume board. Very easy and fast.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I'll try some of the alternant methods again with an open mind maybe I'll learn something!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Its approved for use by the FDA in the manner that it is used

Well I don't consider myself the expert on that subject, but according to Jim Fischer it is NOT approved by the FDA for any use that puts it anywhere near food. But I wouldn't know. Anyone know of an authoritative source for that information? Meanwhile I still have no use for something that smells like vomit.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I have been looking at bee escapes ... 

If you closed off the bottom of the super and put a trap out cone over the innercover hole is that likely to work? The only issue I can think of would be the queen being trapped in the super and possible a temperature issue if the nights are cold.

Michael you mentioned in a forum some where that you prefer a double vs. a single bee escape could you describe the difference?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> but according to Jim Fischer it is NOT approved by the FDA for any use that puts it anywhere near food.


If properly used, none of the fume producing liquids are anywhere near food. Only their odors are. I can't imagine those fumes having any harmful effects on the honey. Especially since most of it is capped.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Ace,
Rain? Seems to me, bees of all ages are more interested in going down into, then out of the hive. Are we discussing removing bees for honey harvest? The queen thing keeps coming up. Possible, but highly unlikely she would be in capped supers. One time I had a little brood on the bottom of one frame in the honey supers. I guess it is not a worry for me. After the bee escape has done its' work, I remove each frame, brush the few bees off, and transfer to another empty super which I can secure from other bees. I do not have too many hives and I find this works well for me. Handling one nine pound frame of honey ten times, is easier on me than handling ten, nine pound all at once. Especially if the top deep is number five


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I love it. You guys even fight among yourselves...
> 
> Fume boards are not for me. It may be the choice of beekeeper with 50 years of experience and millions of pounds of honey harvested but it will never be a practice for me. I am willing to see and hear what everyone has to say and do but I can guarantee that everything I see and hear is not for me.


It is not really fighting... it is different conditions... and resources.

I have a hard time imagining anyone with say 400 hives using abandonment or escape boards to harvest honey. Seems that since the flow is over.... with that number of hives it would take fume boards (assuming some heat) or blowing them out... maybe both.... as it was for us this year.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

What is this honey stuff of which you speak?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Gypsi said:


> What is this honey stuff of which you speak?


Honey stuff?? Are you perhaps thinking about BeeGo or BeeQuick... just a bit confused here.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

hpm08161947 said:


> It is not really fighting... it is different conditions... and resources.


Yeah, I know. So why is it that a hobbyist can't use the same excuse. Much of what big commercial operations do is of no interest to a hobbyist.

Let me ask you a question. What do you think the marketing aspect would be if you were required to put on your labels "extracted by fume board method" or "no chemicals use during extraction"? Do you think there would be a difference to the consumer?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Yeah, I know. So why is it that a hobbyist can't use the same excuse.
> 
> Let me ask you a question. What do you think the marketing aspect would be if you were required to put on your labels "extracted by fume board method"


I see no reason hobbyists could not use the same reason.

As far as labeling goes, I would suspect that it would make a difference to the consumer. But I also think they would be using false reasoning. I can see no difference between honey gathered using fume boards and honey gathered using leaf blowers. Quite honestly I do not think there is any difference.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Purely as a historical point of interest, the bee blower was developed specifically because of the possible contamination from the volatile repellents, Benzaldehyde/Benzoic acid. The other concern was lack of efficacy of repellents in cold weather.

I have NEVER witnessed any damage to bee from a blower. They are alot less upset than being bopped on the head with a broom/brush, which was also used in the past.
You can't tell me those fumes are good for them. Would the be good for you?

As I stated in the past, some of the issues with blowers has arisen because no one sells a good one any more, with a built in frame for the super to sit on, a chute below it to direct the bees onto the ground in front of their hive, NOT the air, and adequate air speed to strip the bees out efficiently. 

Then again, I have a bias as to why I prefer the blower.

Crazy Roland


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If you closed off the bottom of the super and put a trap out cone over the innercover hole is that likely to work? The only issue I can think of would be the queen being trapped in the super and possible a temperature issue if the nights are cold.

If you are going to move all the boxes to block the bottom, it will work better to put the bee escape there. The bees tend to want to move down to the cluster. I pull them off and stack them on a bottom because I'm too lazy to lift them more times than necessary. If I put an escape on a bottom board I just stack the boxes on it (moving them once) and then put an escape on the top and they can leave either way. The cone serves the exact same purpose in a very similar way to an escape. I am talking about the triangular boards, not the porter escapes.

>Michael you mentioned in a forum some where that you prefer a double vs. a single bee escape could you describe the difference? 

I put one on the bottom and one on the top. I don't remember calling it a double, but if you say so... They do have them with more than one triangle inside , but I just buy them from Brushy Mt., I don't make them.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks Michael, I found the double triangle deal on the net. The first one I found was a complicated maze with 6 pieces inside the first triangle. The double triangle looks fine to me.

Because of my modest needs I was only thinking of pulling the top box, one at a time. I suppose I could pull two. But then what the heck would I do with four boxes of honey? I would have to start giving it away to our good customers at the counter.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That's what you do. Friends, family, customers, whatever. It creates a lot of good will.

But what I want to see, is once you've finally performed the task of taking the honey off your hive, how you are going to extract it!! Since we've already heard a lot about your extracting theories!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I posted a video and a post to the video link. What more can I do?

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?261233-Happy-with-extractor

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...t-of-home-made-extractor.&p=717084#post717084


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I love it. You guys even fight among yourselves...


After 1600 + posts you can no longer use the terms you guys or among yourselves. We are the Borg ,Resistance is futile you have been assimilated.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

We are indeed the borg. Now to get my reef back OUT of the buckets and in the newly moved tank.

Gypsi


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

We are the borg ,resistance is futile:lpf: We use bee quick. One gallon is good for around 40000 pounds-a truck load. Can not handle the smell of bee go, I go--TED


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