# Late queens



## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Just how late in the season do some of you still graft and make queens and how well do they do?


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I've gone back to rearing Natural Queen Cells rather than grafting. Those inserted in the first week of August are now laying well - only small numbers of mating nucs, so not worth quoting percentages.

I inserted some (very) ripe q/cells on Wed. 29th and saw mating flights from their boxes over the weekend - so those virgins were quick off the mark. I'm pretty sure that at least one of the last q/cells was a dud, as unlike the others there's been zero entrance activity. I won't know how successful these 'end of August' q/cells have been for a while yet, as I'm not planning to poke my head in just yet. Again, very small numbers involved as I'm only 'playing around' at this time of the year.
LJ


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

I used to graft clear into the first week of October but now use a cutoff date of September 15.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

We typically shut down our queen rearing operation in early- mid July.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Last graft July 10


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## Sticky_Situation (Oct 7, 2009)

In the Northern Virginia area, I'm still seeing Drone cells in all of of my hives and they're bringing in pollen and nectar still. This heat and all the rain has them confused I think.
Would putting in a Nicot system this weekend be a bad idea at this time of year? If I provided drawn comb and I fed them really well, they'd probably mate and raise enough brood of winter bees to make it through the winter right?


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I was wondering if good queens could still be made this time of the year.Its still hot here in south Arkansas and it will still be warm for a while yet.I dont really see any drones but I am still having them producing some.We have the rains supposed to be coming in tonight and tomorrow from the storm and after it clears I think I will try and see if I can produce a few.I had a couple good queens come in last week and are laying now so will try raising some queens from them.


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## GregH (Aug 4, 2016)

I am 25 miles north of you. I am getting mated queens back now and have several drones in my hives. But some of the queens are coming back drone layers now more than earlier in the summer. A lot of the queens that are coming back are laying up a storm.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I'm not seeing many Drones in the hives and very little Drone brood as of last Monday.

Alex


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

Check your drone numbers, including drone larvae. If it looks like there will be plenty by the time the queens go to mate and if you have the store/capped brood/nurse bees to support the new hives, then go for it.


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## vtbeeguy (Jun 10, 2016)

It's not just about having some drones. The health of the drone is crucial to sperm viability. You need healthy strong drones to produce viable sperm. I hear temp swings can also affect the % of viable sperm. Could explain the higher % of drone layers in late season queens, too many blanks fired on mating flights.


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## Sticky_Situation (Oct 7, 2009)

vtbeeguy said:


> It's not just about having some drones. The health of the drone is crucial to sperm viability. You need healthy strong drones to produce viable sperm. I hear temp swings can also affect the % of viable sperm. Could explain the higher % of drone layers in late season queens, too many blanks fired on mating flights.


I had never really thought about that. I guess I was thinking all about the Queen's health.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

vtbeeguy said:


> It's not just about having some drones. The health of the drone is crucial to sperm viability. You need healthy strong drones to produce viable sperm. I hear temp swings can also affect the % of viable sperm. Could explain the higher % of drone layers in late season queens, too many blanks fired on mating flights.


Hear they should wear boxers, not briefs!


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

I ended up deciding to order queens instead of raising my own. My biggest concern was that they won't make it back from mating. While driving today, I noticed a lot of dragonflies. Big reason for failed returns around here. Check out your predator populations as well.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

We have a lot f dragonflies and birds here around the lake.I have had lots of queens not make it back in spring but by mid summer most make it back.Those little Tanagers will sit near your hives and just pick off a belly full of bees here in the spring but are gone by summer.

https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Summer_Tanager/id


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Checked some hives in Mid-state California a few days ago and the drones are already gone, so way too late. You need 54 days before drone kick-out (About = to 2 months before your last strong pollen flow ends or the nights start getting cold, which ever comes first) or it's pointless.

Off-season queens we usually order from Hawai'i, and that's usually several months ahead of the opening of this years' season - like now - September (maybe even earlier!) - for next year.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

kilocharlie said:


> Checked some hives in Mid-state California a few days ago and the drones are already gone, so way too late. You need 54 days before drone kick-out (About = to 2 months before your last strong pollen flow ends or the nights start getting cold, which ever comes first) or it's pointless.
> 
> Off-season queens we usually order from Hawai'i, and that's usually several months ahead of the opening of this years' season - like now - September (maybe even earlier!) - for next year.


I have plenty of drones flying. 
Also have plenty of drone larva at various stages (even eggs).
Weather and foraging are good.
Two recent grafts from a friend just started laying.
I still have 2-3 queen-less units that I hope will just re-queen naturally.

Unsure what is up with the South, but up North here we are still a game, regardless what people are saying.


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## vtbeeguy (Jun 10, 2016)

It's not just about seeing drones. It's about their #s, the % of them that have viable sperm, and of that % that do the health of the sperm itself all factors into how well the queen gets bred. That's why a greater % of late and early queens fail or are superseded at the earliest opportunity.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

vtbeeguy said:


> It's not just about seeing drones. It's about their #s, the % of them that have viable sperm, and of that % that do the health of the sperm itself all factors into how well the queen gets bred. That's why a greater % of late and early queens fail or are superseded at the earliest opportunity.


Well, and until you try you don't really know.
How in a world anyone here will measure the drone sperm count?
Why make it too complicated?

So, I would not bet my salary on late mating.
However, if all the components seem to be present, why not try it and see what pans out?
If fail - loose nothing.
If mating is successful, have a plan in place to take advantage of the bonus.
I, for one, have two very good *additional* nucs going right now based on late grafting and mating.
By all the theories, I am an idiot for doing this just about now; oh well, then I don't mind.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

vtbeeguy said:


> It's not just about seeing drones. It's about their #s, the % of them that have viable sperm, and of that % that do the health of the sperm itself all factors into how well the queen gets bred. That's why a greater % of late and early queens fail or are superseded at the earliest opportunity.


How well the queen gets bred weather being the biggest factor plentiful drones is another. My best queens are grafted and mated in the fall no supercedures. Run into more supercedure with queens raised to early in the spring ( cold rainy weather is more the reason than lack of drones).


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I still have star thistle in bloom and woolly blue curl (aka "vinegar weed") about to bloom, rosemary and eucalyptus to follow, but the nights got cold for a week just recently and the colonies escorted the drones out the front before I got to them. Not all areas are on the same schedule, obviously  

At some point, we combine nuc's instead of grafting queens, or we order from Hawai'i. The last week of Summer is a bit late to be rolling the dice on unmated, untested queens.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I quit when the bees have lost interest. One year that was October. Most years that's August. Some years it's July.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

It's my opinion if full hives are still raising Drones...ie you Drone brood...then there's no reason you'll get well mated fresh queens...weather depending of course.


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## Sticky_Situation (Oct 7, 2009)

So early last evening(Tuesday, 9/18) I was doing an inspection and saw a lot of Drone cells, lots of Drones flying around...and then an unmarked Queen meandered by and I snatched her up and marked her! I then looked over at my Nicot system and said, "why the hell not?" So I refilled the internal feeder with sugar water and placed the imprisoned Queen in the middle of the Brood chamber.
Gambling on the weather and season, but might have some more overwintered Nuc's if I can get the emerging Queens to speed date properly and pack those Nuc's with pollen patties and sugar water.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sticky_Situation said:


> So early last evening(Tuesday, 9/18) I was doing an inspection and saw a lot of Drone cells, lots of Drones flying around...and then an unmarked Queen meandered by and I snatched her up and marked her! I then looked over at my Nicot system and said, "why the hell not?" So I refilled the internal feeder with sugar water and placed the imprisoned Queen in the middle of the Brood chamber.
> Gambling on the weather and season, but might have some more overwintered Nuc's if I can get the emerging Queens to speed date properly and pack those Nuc's with pollen patties and sugar water.



As of last weekend (hot and muggy) I still had plenty of drones, drone larva, and a virgin queen running about a nuc.
That virgin better had mated the last weekend.

Summer seems to be over per the forecast.
If I find any of my queen-less units still without eggs this coming weekend, time to combine them.


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## Sticky_Situation (Oct 7, 2009)

My GF is headed up to your neck of the woods in Wisconsin this weekend for a Ragnar Relay race @GregV.

The forecast in WI of Rain and temps of the 30's - 40's is definitely not summertime. We've got August weather here in the Washington, DC area so far. Weather be weird this year!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sticky_Situation said:


> My GF is headed up to your neck of the woods in Wisconsin this weekend for a Ragnar Relay race @GregV.
> 
> The forecast in WI of Rain and temps of the 30's - 40's is definitely not summertime. We've got August weather here in the Washington, DC area so far. Weather be weird this year!


Respect to your GF - Ragnar is rough and not for weaklings. :thumbsup:
I can run in most any weather and terrain, but have not done Ragnar.
They ran in our town last year, if I recall. Some people. 

Yes, night are getting cooler now.
If no rain, days are still plenty fine for foraging late goldenrods and asters (and nuc feeding).


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