# German Black Bees; any left in the USA?



## jadebees

I don't know about "german", but there are black bees where I live. I have been swarm trapping in this area 9 years, and got my first swarm of black bees last year. They were caught in an unpopulated area, far from human habitations.

One of the old ranchers told me his grandfather kept some of them. His grandpa was a pioneering family here. This may be a holdover of those strains.

They have every bad habit, unwanted by modern beeks. They are defensive, agressive, and runny. Stingy, and threaten readily.The only bad habit they don't show, is they don't follow far.They are very productive, showing a very high % of honey to brood area. If not for that, I would have culled the queen, and combined them to gentler bees. 

Maybe not, they are beautiful, as 80 % are jet black, 20% don't even have stripes. The rest, resemble dark Carnolians. I love the way they look! They make good show&tell bees.😆

So, These are not from germany, but are American black bees. They are still unique and beautiful.


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## I'llbeedan

That was probably over 50 years ago what do you think the odds of her memory being that accurate.


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## Bee Whisperer

She seems to be a very sharp lady, and she got around as good as anyone; good farm life of hard work I presume. I believe she remembered well, and she had been the target of their aggression many times over the years, so she probably saw them many, many times. 

I will have to wait and catch some when they come out. If they appear black with a few brown stripes, I will send some in for genetics testing. 

I just wanted to know if anyone has ever confirmed there are still some of this breed around, or is it truly a thing of the past?


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## Brad Bee

I doubt there are any pure lines of them anywhere, unless they are very isolated and don't out cross with other bees. I have little doubt their genes are still flowing in many bees in our area. I do see dark bees and my bees are darker than Italians, but they aren't black bees.

I caught a swarm 2 years ago that was much darker than my bees were. I raised several queens that year so I would imagine that those drones mated with at least a couple of my queens.


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## bendriftin

I have some bees that I was told were German black bees, but they don't look much different than any of my other bees other than one hive, but unfortunately the queen died before I could graft. That hive were a much more greyish color. They are all pretty gentle, winter hardy but prone to chalk brood


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

They are present in the genepool but to what extent is anybodys guess.


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## Bee Whisperer

Bendriftin; 
Although I have never seen them first-hand, I was told that Buckfast bees sometimes had a greyish tone to them.


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## bendriftin

Could have been not sure, I really liked that hive


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## cerezha

Hello everybody
For the last 3-4 years, my bees are ~50% dark (black?) and ~50% italianish. Dark one - you still can recognize strips, but bee looks black even from short distance. They also have 100% drones really black. Never was curious enough to see drone's strips, but from 1-2' they look completely black and gigantic. Bees are probably africanized because we are in SoCal. I did not notice special aggressiveness. Bees are TF. It is my understanding, that dark bees are probably "wild genotype."


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## jwcarlson

Everyone who catches a swarm with a few dark bees in it thinks they've caught the unicorn "black bee".

Brother Adam didn't seem to have a whole lot of great things to say about them in Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey. So I'm not sure how fantastic they really are/were.


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## Michael Bush

I have occasionally had some cutouts that resembled them. Runny, small, black, proplize like crazy... sometimes vicious and sometimes nice enough.


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## rniles

Recently published online, here's part of the article with a link....

Grooming behaviour has long been studied by researchers trying to breed honey bees tolerant to the parasitic mite varroa, but the behaviour is poorly understood, and progress in breeding “grooming bees” has been slow. A new paper has just been published in the Journal of Apicultural Research, which throws some light on the problem.

Researchers Beata Bąk and Jerzy Wilde from the University of Warmia and Mazury in Olsztyn, Poland compared the grooming behaviour of two lines of the Carniolan bee (Apis mellifera carnica), the Caucasian bee (Apis mellifera caucasica), the dark European honey bee (Apis mellifera mellifera), and a crossbreed of the Carniolan bee with the Cape bee (Apis mellifera capensis).

The researchers found that most worker bees do not tolerate the mite on their bodies. The most intense reaction was observed in A. m. mellifera worker bees, with as many as 98% of worker bees in this group making an attempt to remove mites. The different lines varied greatly in their abilities to remove mites. In most trials, worker bees showed at least three different defensive reactions, and the authors concluded that A. m. mellifera shows the strongest grooming behaviour of all bees used in the experiment.

The full paper: “Grooming behaviour by worker bees of various subspecies of honey bees to remove Varroa destructor mites” by Beata Bąk and Jerzy Wilde (sadly not free to view) can be found here: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2016.1147791

I think Wikipedia mentioned that there are a few pockets of A m m in the US ..but not much.


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## marshmasterpat

There we go, the holy grail we have been dreaming about


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## beepro

Once in a while I saw a jet black worker bee among the
mutted worker bees in the same hive here. The queen I bought
her from N.Y. last year. Some drones are not with gray or brown stripes but
are shiny black all over. If they are not the buckfast drones then they might be
the German black bee genetics. With queens passing along from state to state who
knows where they would end up at. Ask the elderly to take some grafts to start
a colony or 2 just to be sure. Then you don't have to wait that long to confirm.


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## sqkcrk

"My question is; what are the possibilities of this colony being the decedents of the European (German) Black Bee?"

Likely not. There are black bees that aren't German blacks.​


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## beepro

So, if they are not the German black then what are they?
Some kind of a black mutt bee? And what origin are they?


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## sqkcrk

Carniolans? Black Italians? One would have to check genetics to be sure.

What does it matter? Is there something magical about German Black bees? Why would anyone think that the genetics hasn't been so well incorporated/diluted/compromised over time that being able to say that some Black bees were German Blacks is meaningless.


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## beepro

The OP wasn't sure if these are the German black bees.
Yes, without the genetic testing the appearance can be deceiving.
But I would not call the Italians black either. They are label that way because
they came from a certain part of the world. Take the Caucasian bees for example.
Only in that area will have these type of bees. So it is named that way. Calling them the
Italians/Caucasian does not make any sense at all unless you mutted them. Don't you think so?
So the purpose is for identification only that does not go into the genetic aspect of the bees.


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## sqkcrk

Then, like I said, it doesn't matter. Produce them and sell them as German Black bees, if you want. A Prius is only a Prius because that's what we call it.

Are these, so called, German Black bees, currently found here and there in America, consistently black in color, somewhat smaller looking, and aggressive in behavior? What are the classic characteristics of German Blacks and do these bees we find in America fit those descriptors?


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## cerezha

sqkcrk said:


> ... Blacks is meaningless.


 It is not exactly true, Mark. Following your logic all bees in US should be result of "averaging" (mixing genes). It is not happening because there are distinctive phenotypes existed including "black" bees. The presence of distinctive phenotypes may be indicative of distinctive genotypes (not necessary, but!). In another words, the presence of "black" bees in the wildness may indicate that those bees may preserve not only color (phenotype) but unique (different) genotype. Bee's genetics is very complex, but it is known from other areas that even in the mixture, some distinguished pheno/genotypes may be preserved. Simple example - human races. They are mixing, mixing for 10K years, but still exist.


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## beepro

I agree with the above post completely. Take the Cordovan recessive genes for
example. In my little bee experiment I let the queen mated with the local carnis (black)
drones which dominated the DCAs here. Then on the 4th generation of the Italians color
virgin queen, when this queen met another Italians with lighter color, the daughter queens will
turn into a Cordovan, hence preserving the original genetics. But if the daughter met another
carnis drone then there is a 50/50 chance of being an Italians or carnis worker bees but no Cordovan. My education in
bee genetics is still at its infancy. But I know which is the recessive and which is the dominate genes just
like raising the tropical fancy guppies before. i.e. the albinos (red) vs the gray guppy. Quite interesting indeed!


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## sqkcrk

There is only one race of humans.

So how do you determine whether black bees are German? If they exist, and people want them, why isn't someone, even just one someone, breeding and selling them? Can you even find them for sale in Germany or England?


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## sqkcrk

"German Black Bees; any left in the USA?"

I'm skeptical. You'll have to show me.


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## cerezha

sqkcrk said:


> .... for sale in Germany or England?


Mark, "Mother Nature" did not "sell..." There are many things, which are not for sale...


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## sqkcrk

Then they are insignificant in relation to what exists under management and in Nature.


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## Contender

Bee Whisperer;

If the European Black Bee, or "German Black" was brought to the US, and many early citizens had those colonies, it is highly possible that some of them made it to the Wyoming territory; and hived many miles from any other known hives. Anyone who has experienced the wide open territory of Wyoming can imagine that there may not be as much possibility for one colony of honey bees to mix with other colonies; let alone another genre of honeybee. Settlers were often so far from each other that it could take days to visit a neighbor. Those homesteads still do exist out there. Also; the miles between homesteads/colonies did not present lots of opportunities for swarms to find new homes. It is flat open grassland. 
If a pioneer took hives to the new territory, and those colonies have stayed in their immediate area with little or no chance to relocate throughout the generations, as suggested in the original post, it is highly possible that those colonies could have remained strong in their genetics. They may not be German Blacks, but they may be some good quality stock that has survived nearly a century on their own. If it were my opportunity, I would like to investigate this colony just out of curiosity. Maybe they are German Blacks.


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## Bee Whisperer

That is what I have been thinking. Yet, I still don't have an answer as to whether or not anyone has proven the current existence of the European Black Bee in the US. I get the idea that some genetics may still remain and mixed with others, but as to whether or not there are any known pure strains, I guess the answer is; no one really knows.


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## BernhardHeuvel

jwcarlson said:


> Brother Adam didn't seem to have a whole lot of great things to say about them in Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey.


That's wrong. The buckfast bee is based upon the British black bee. He also introduced the (outright mean/furious) French black bee in the beginning of his buckfast breeding.

He never liked the Carnica bees although he tried hard to integrate the Carnicas to do his German fellows a favour. Never got much success getting something useful out of Carnicas though. 

A black bee is not so black as the name suggests. The best indicator is the roundish butt whereas other bees have a pointy abdomen.

There has been genetic testing done on US bees, isn't it? Wasn't there a study who profiled the genetic population of American bees? Tought I read a study somewhere.


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## Stephenpbird

BernhardHeuvel said:


> There has been genetic testing done on US bees, isn't it? Wasn't there a study who profiled the genetic population of American bees? Tought I read a study somewhere.


I think Deborah Delany did a great deal of research on this, 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDQNoQfW-9w 
A very good presentation, from 32 mins on talks about apis mellifera mellifera


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## nwbell469

Ok just a thought but do you not think that all bees have some genetics from all strains of honey bees of days gone bye. Breeding can get what ever you want in any creature if you know what you are after. From my knowledge correct me if I'am wrong but there are only two breeds of honey bee and the rest are just Strains of there blood crossed to get what you see today. Someone liked em black so he bread for all black. The same goes for any trait, today we got the upper hand though we can AI and cut the time in half to get what we are after. Me personally they are all good I think we need to breed to get bees that can make it with out any treatment. We are there worst enemy


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## BernhardHeuvel

Personally, I am not the worst enemy of my bees.


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## nwbell469

In the long run if we treat for every little problem then we are taking there ability to survive as a hole. We can't beat nature no matter how hard we try. Watch some of Michael bush's videos he brings out some very good points.


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## Richard Cryberg

nwbell469 said:


> In the long run if we treat for every little problem then we are taking there ability to survive as a hole. We can't beat nature no matter how hard we try. Watch some of Michael bush's videos he brings out some very good points.


Nature spent millions of years trying to eliminate cancer and heart disease in humans by allowing everyone with those problems to die fairly rapidly. The experiment utterly failed at curing or preventing either cancer or heart disease. Neglect does not solve problems. Anyone who thinks neglect is the solution simply knows nothing about genetics, nor selective breeding. The only possible result of neglect is back yard bee havers will continue to buy bees from the commercial guys who do not neglect their bees and make those commercial guys more money which is a good thing.

Dick


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## jwcarlson

BernhardHeuvel said:


> That's wrong. The buckfast bee is based upon the British black bee. He also introduced the (outright mean/furious) French black bee in the beginning of his buckfast breeding.


I thought it was based (mostly) on the Italian bee? Citing the fact that only lingustica queens or crosses seemed to survive acarine...?
Wikipedia was the first search result... I don't have my copy of Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey handy...


> The Buckfast contains heritage from mainly A. m. ligustica (North Italian), A. m. mellifera (English), A. m. mellifera (French), A. m. anatolica (Turkish) and A. m. cecropia (Greek).





nwbell469 said:


> Watch some of Michael bush's videos he brings out some very good points.


Who's Michael Bush? Never heard of him.


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## Michael Bush

Before Delaney's research there was this one:
http://beesource.com/point-of-view/...a-apidae-from-the-southeastern-united-states/

Both studies show that feral bees are distinct from commercial bees genetically.


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## BernhardHeuvel

nwbell469 said:


> We can't beat nature no matter how hard we try.


Nature mostly knows partnerships, commensalisms, mutualism, the web of life, cooperation. 

There is much more cooperation in nature than anything else. In fact you have much more microbial cells than human cells in your body, you live with partners. You are an example of what cooperation of living things means. Same with the bee. We are partners of the bees, like it or not. And bees are our partners. 

If your microbial partners would decide to leave the partnership with you, because your microbes listened to a video they found on youtube, you'd die in a day or two. Life needs partnership and cooperation. 

It is called biom. Human biom for example. Or in case of beekeepers: human beeom. Bees and us. If you hate yourself, that's your decision. If you hate bees, the same. I love humans and I love bees. That's why I care for humans and bees likewise. That's it.


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## cerezha

Richard Cryberg said:


> Nature spent millions of years trying to eliminate cancer and heart disease...
> Dick


Entirely not true: Cancer, heart diseases etc. ARE result of human negligence and disconnection from the nature and normal operation processes (how nature operates). In some sense, these diseases (and some others) are punishment to humankind. Cancer in particular IS a punishment for unhealthy life and environment: smoking, pollution, you name it.


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## jbeshearse

cerezha said:


> Entirely not true: Cancer, heart diseases etc. ARE result of human negligence and disconnection from the nature and normal operation processes (how nature operates). In some sense, these diseases (and some others) are punishment to humankind. Cancer in particular IS a punishment for unhealthy life and environment: smoking, pollution, you name it.


nope, higher incidence of cancer is a result of longer life spans and better understanding of the underlying causes of our symptoms. Heart disease was also low incidence when everyday bacteria were killing us off before we could develop heart disease.

but I suppose that modern medicine could be "disconnection from the nature and normal operation process"


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## cerezha

> ... higher incidence of cancer is a result of longer life spans and better understanding of the underlying causes of our symptoms. /QUOTE]
> 
> I agree. Human was designed to "operate" for 45 years, but it was not designed to be protected from smocking, pollution and other recent additions to human life-style. The bottom line is that cancer etc. is nothing to do with "million-years evolution."


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## jadebees

Juvenile diabetes is much more prevalent than before the production of commercial insulin. Now, those afflicted live long enough to breed. This is a classic example, of the creepy basis of human eugenics. It's the other side of medical intervention. It's however , quite cruel, to let nature just run it's course, if we have an option. For bees, or people. Who'd return to the days of 50% or more infant mortality?


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## Richard Cryberg

jadebees said:


> Juvenile diabetes is much more prevalent than before the production of commercial insulin. Now, those afflicted live long enough to breed. This is a classic example, of the creepy basis of human eugenics. It's the other side of medical intervention. It's however , quite cruel, to let nature just run it's course, if we have an option. For bees, or people. Who'd return to the days of 50% or more infant mortality?


So, now you invent a new malady. Hereditary juvenile diabetes. I suggest you look up just how hereditable juvenile diabetes actually is. Identical twin studies show it to be very nearly non-hereditary. Also, it clearly is NOT more common today than it was before insulin. It may be more diagnosed, but that does not make it more common.

Adult onset diabetes on the other hand is extremely hereditary. But, also mainly a result of defective lifestyle at the dinner table and between meals calorie burn level.

Allowing a hive to die with the idea you are breeding stronger bees is simply nuts. The bees that die are workers that do not pass on their genetics. The solution is not to allow the hive to die. The solution is to treat the problem and requeen with good genetics. By and large those good genetics are going to come from professional breeders and are available today. My very favorite bee activity is killing sub standard queens and replacing them with queens raised from good genetics. And, not all queens raised from good genetics are good queens with good genetics. I kill half the queens I raise because there is something about them I do not like. Were I really serious about it I would kill more like 90% of the queens I raise.

I had one hive out of 17 to 20 die last year at some point depending on how you count hives. The one that died was my fault because I did not kill the queen and replace her like I knew I should have done. I treated each hive once for mites last spring and treated one hive for EFB last July. What was your record like? By the way, my production hives are putting nectar in honey supers that are on top of three deep 10 frame brood boxes right now and fruit bloom still has not started here.

Dick


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## jadebees

Relax, Mr.C. I'm not inventing anything. 
Why are you so offended by my comment? None of it was personally directed at you. Though i don't understand the relevance, I kill about 75% of all the queens i get here. Each hive is productive. No one grows fruit here. 
If you had read to my context, your comprehension may have increased, til you saw that I was indeed not advocating the things you seem offended by.

Get a grip on that handle.


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## nwbell469

My point exactly bees made it millions of years with out us, I do agree that some point we may have to step in to help, but evolution is not possible with out the chance to do so.


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## nwbell469

How do you think those breeder got those good genetics? For example if they are varroa resistance do you think they treated till no more mites ever again?


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## cerezha

Richard Cryberg said:


> ...
> Allowing a hive to die ...
> 
> Dick


Dick, the thread is about possible existence (or not) so called "black German bees" - how your comment related to the subject? I think, you mixed up with TF. In my opinion, negligence is different from thoughtful management so the subject can have a normal life without regular medication. For instance, improving the immune system shall cause less viral diseases. In this sense, destroying immune system is negligence (crime!). Improving immune system - is beneficial to everyone. It is well known, that pollution and stress affect immune system drastically - made your own conclusion.


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## kilocharlie

The black bees, apis mellifera mellifera, though hardy, are fairly susceptible to brood diseases and thus are believed to be very rare in North America, though many have been out-crossed with Italian and other races (subspecies) of honeybees. 

An ambitious researcher could do a genome test of some likely suspect colonies.

They are notably defensive, and thus considered by most difficult to work. They are know to fly out in colder temperatures than Italians, and reports of their productivity mostly reflects these conditions. Italians generally produce far more honey than Black bees after it warms up in the late Spring. That, coupled with the generally more docile behavior, caused a mad rush amongst American beekeepers to buy, sell, and raise Italian queens starting about 1881. 

They were considered a nuisance in the early 1900's, and some beekeepers actively captured and re-queened Black bee colonies. By the 1950's, beekeeping had grown into a respectable trade of commercial proportions, only to get fully industrial strength by the 1980's. Great numbers of swarms escaping from these and small-scale operations have largely bred the Black bees out of the pure bloodlines. Some may still exist, but think about the chances of an area unmolested by commercial beekeepers supporting a continuous population of Black bees in North America - it is highly unlikely now in 2016, especially after the introduction of tracheal and varroa mites. Most likely you'll see some tainted with at least a little bit of Italian, or other race of honeybee.


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## Michael Bush

I don't see that they were considered defensive until after they started bringing in Italians and got F1 crosses... but yes some of those were vicious.


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## Bee Whisperer

KiloCharlie;

Thank you for this good information. I do realize, as well as the responses from others as they seem to agree, that the chances are very slim that a hive of pure black Bees could exist in North America. 

My curiosity was peaked by the fact that this old homestead is many, many miles from anything, and from any type of forest or dwelling in which bees could colonize as they split and spread across country; unless they somehow made it across the prairie by some other means. The homestead dates back into the late 1800s when the Black Bee could have been brought here by the folks that originally settle on the open plains in Wyoming. The elderly lady I spoke with was born at the homestead, and her dad was said to have dealt with the bees for as long as she could recall. 

I am not aware of how far colonies can actually travel (across a prairie) when they swarm, so it is hard to say if they could mix with other colonies when they are so far removed from possible hive opportunities. That is what made me wonder if these could be an actual Black Bee. I have not seen them yet as it has been too cold. They lady recalls them being "black" when they swarmed once; although she was very young then. 

As they have swarmed over the years, it seems they have spread into some of the trees at the homestead, but these seem to be the only trees for miles around and were probably planted in the 1800s as a wind break. I have seen, inside the old house, where honey has dripped down through the ceiling and stained it. The home is no longer livable, so extraction shouldn't be too difficult. When it warms up, I will check them out. 

Anyway, this scenario is why I am curious as to whether these could, in fact, be original blacks; brought to America way back when and secluded enough to not mix with other breeds. Just wondering.


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## AAIndigo

Miller compound Honeybees and agriculture has some Black Mountain Bees. Nice looking girls

https://www.facebook.com/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture-256954971040510/


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## beepro

Yes, those are the carnis origin.
It is hard to tell just by its color--carnis, buckfast, Russians, AMM, etc.
You have to genetic test them to confirm.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Send me samples. I know some black bee experts that I can forward them to. For both visual and genetic testing. I reckon they would be very thrilled if there really are some of the original black bees left out there.


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## beepro

In the U.K. they have some original black bees.
There is a group formed in an effort to keep them alive.
Try a net search for them will show you this group. We cannot
import the foreign bees except from Canada.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/apr/18/black-honeybees-rediscovered-in-britain
Here is the group at : http://www.biobees.com/blackbees.php


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## Bee Whisperer

BernhardHeuvel; If they look to be Blacks, I will contact you. Thanks.


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## beepro

How are you going to arrange the shipping?


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## seawrath

Where do you send bees for genetic testing? I found a ferral hive with dark slighlty aggresive bees.


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## Stephenpbird

Friedrich Ruttner explains how to distinguish between races using various methods in Breading techniques and selection for breeding of the Honeybee.


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## kilocharlie

BW - That is the kind of place that one could hope to find an isolated, breeding population without extra-racial "contamination". 

A place the commercials avoid, neglect, overlook, or have other reason to not choose. Mere remoteness may not cut it, but it probably does not hurt - few roads would perhaps help even more. A long, wide boundary (perhaps >50 miles) of nectarless, pollenless, hostile country would be a requirement. I'm thinking a remote canyon in Northern mountains, where few bees overwinter.

Definitely send off a few samples for the testing. That could be a valuable stock to keep going - they are certainly "survivor" stock.


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## ABK

There's a saying...which I think cerezha will confirm: (people who live longer) don't live longer, they suffer longer.

Just to throw it out there for you antibiotics and modern medicine advocates to gobble up


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## cerezha

Sorry ABK, I slightly "edit" your sentence:


ABK said:


> ... people who live longer...., they suffer longer...


Another saying is that who is healthy, that person will have healthy death!

I saw a full-size movie on youtube about German bee program. They have facility on remote island and people sent their virgin queens for insemination at the island. They have a whole detailed protocol. I do not remember was it German black bee or some other valuable lineage? They also have elaborate all-country wide program to select varroa-resistant colonies.


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## ABK

A whole country working on selecting for varroa-resistant colonies? Makes perfect sense to me. But I think some of our friends on this forum will have no hesitation to shun not only the TF beekeepers on this forum, but an entire NATION practicing that method!


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## bendriftin

I don't think anyone is against varroa resistant bees, and nobody that I know is against Treatment Free. However all too often people jump on a band wagon for an ideology without understanding the entirety of the issue. We are a long way from varroa resistant breeding that is sustainable in commercial operations. Without a significant financial advantage to being treatment free the simple savings in medications is not enough when your very living is at stake. Without organic crops being worth 3x the value of a standard crop then you would not have farmers shifting toward organic practices. There are a large number of beekeepers who's living comes almost solely from almond pollination. So without the insentive of high pollination prices for TF or major price differences in honey prices why would take a chance on loosing half of your income for years on end to develop higher resistant bees. It is easy to go out and give extra time to a few hives by requeening them until you get a good queen and cutting out all the drone comb every couple of weeks. It is entirely different when you are dealing with 500-50,000 hives. 

That being said, if you have somehow developed a strain of resistant bees that you feel will maintain a high level of resistant across many different sisters and following generations I would be glad to try them out for you free of charge, just send 50-100 queens at a time. I have seen Bulls, that are virtual clones of one another, bred and developed to live at high elevations that 2 out of four will die of altitude sickness. These are $10,000+ animals with a vastly greater amount of time, research, development and most importantly financing behind them and they can not achieve a higher success rate than that. Do not be too fooled that varroa is a simple problem and that viable treatment free breeding on a massive scale is close at hand.


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## rniles

Richard Cryberg said:


> The solution is not to allow the hive to die. The solution is to treat the problem and requeen with good genetics.


Agreed! You get the same effect as the bond method without having all your bees die and replacing them with something just as bad as what you let die off. It also helps to stop buying queens from just anywhere and to also raise your own queens from those queens that do well.


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## Fusion_power

Funny how many different ways this thread has drifted. A comment for Sqkcrk, Germany went on a racial cleansing binge about 80 years ago where they tried to wipe out the black bees and replace them with Carniolans. This is why the original black bee is hard to find in most of Europe.

Several comments say that mite tolerant bees either don't exist or are nowhere near being developed. Tom Rinderer disagrees with you. As director of the Baton Rouge Bee Lab (now retired), he probably knows a bit more about bees than you or I. His specific statement is that bees can be kept fully treatment free and still be productive. He was discussing the Russian lines. My bees have not been treated in 11 years. They are not up to snuff with commercial requirements. Give me a few years and I hope to change that.


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## bendriftin

I am not saying that it not possible, but speaking from a little bit of experiance and from what I have observed. First of all, having tried commercially available queens as well observing some hives that I purchased, that I was told were Black Bees. 

I lost nearly half my hives this winter as well as a good number of other beekeepers. Of the survivors that I have been observing, I am seeing some mite problems in some of the hives, I am seeing very little in others. Yet between trying to make splits, put in purchased queens, move bees, find new locations to make up for some I lost, constantly check the bees to ensure they are queen right, keep my forklift running, get my bee truck serviced and inspected I find myself wondering where I find the time to graft? Where do I make the time to do the due diligence in testing that needs done to select the proper stock. See this is what I mean by entirety. Of all my bees from last year I would say the black bees did the best but they had a lot of chalk brood. My Minnesota hygenics did the worse, and I don't know about the VSH. I am not saying it is impossible but there are so many factors above and beyond just the genetics of the bees themselves that can influence it. Also I do know a guy that went to Russians and now he mostly has an mutt bee with a great deal of Africanized mixed in. I certainly don't know even 1% of the commercial beekeepers in the United States but I have not heard of anyone saying they have found a breed of bee or a source with reliable results. One guy had good results with MH for about 2 years. So this TF ideology has been going on for at least 5 years and I have yet to see a significant change in things. So I have no doubt he knows more about bees than I do, but I have seen people that know more about electricity than I do who could not wire a three way switch setup. 

I am not too arrogant to admit if I am wrong and more than willing to try and different line of queens, so if you know of this magic varroa resistant bee that I don't have to treat and will be a minimum of 10 frames of strength by February 1st. Let me know and if they work out I will apologize.


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## rniles

I would gladly accept a treatment free queen survivor and I'll place her in a hive treatment free - if that hive lasts three years without treatment, then I would consider that a successful treatment free hive.

I'm wondering why all these treatment free beekeepers aren't selling their queens, creating more treatment free beekeepers with their treatment free queens.


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## ABK

Treating the commercial pollinator bees is more justifiable in my mind. Firstly, since the bees are merely used as transporters for pollen, and secondly since a commercial beekeeper's life DOES depend on them staying alive. 

Hobbyists can afford to let their bees die through several seasons before they end up with a strain that survives with no treatments. 

Now if everyone who has had colonies survive through 5-10+ years treatment-free got their bees together and put those through different climatic conditions, it would be interesting to see if they are still the survivors that they were in their original areas.


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## Fusion_power

> I'm wondering why all these treatment free beekeepers aren't selling their queens, creating more treatment free beekeepers with their treatment free queens.


I am. SquarePeg is. I can't do it on a commercial scale, but at a local level, there are now 7 beekeepers in this area with my stock. There are 7 queens in California to be evaluated and see how they fare against mitageddon. No, I don't have any more queens available at this time, I'm busy requeening all of my colonies.


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## cerezha

bendriftin said:


> ... if you know of this magic varroa resistant bee that I don't have to treat and will be a minimum of 10 frames of strength by February 1st. Let me know and if they work out I will apologize.


 This is exact problem - there is no magical bee. In order to achieve the goal, one need to change the whole practice of keeping bees. Different goals = different practice. Re-queening is useless because you still have drones around. In many cases, selection is working the way, that improving one quality, breeder can compromise another quality. You may have ideal varroa-resistant bee, but soon discover that it is prone to other disease ... so, entire culture needs to be changed. European countries, normally have small apiaries of 30-100 beehives - it is much easier to find a solution for small local business. In US, in my opinion, it is practically impossible to have large varroa-resistant business due to common practices directed against the bee's well-being.


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## cerezha

rniles said:


> I would gladly accept a treatment free queen survivor and I'll place her in a hive treatment free - if that hive lasts three years without treatment, then I would consider that a successful treatment free hive...


It does not work this way - other bees, which are not varroa-tolerant/resistant will spoil your single "treatment-free" (not really) beehive. In our small community, we have 3 beekeepers, who has treatment-free bees. Our approach is to flood the area with our drones. If another beekeeper come to our area with his chemically treated bees and loads of varroa - it is possible that our bees will not tolerate excess of varroa. From another hand, if they replace the queen on inseminated by our drones - there is a hope, that our genes prevail!


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## squarepeg

i have a neighbor who still keeps a few hives that was big time into package production and sales back in the 70's. he had experience catching swarms of those very dark bees back in those days, and found them to be extremely defensive yet excellent honey producers.

after several decades of influx of commercially produced (and somewhat genetically bottlenecked) packages we don't see or hear about these so called 'german black bees' around here anymore.

they were most likely apis mellifera mellifera. a couple of research teams have found feral surviors in this part of the country whose mitochondrial dna linked them back to a.m.m.

i've sent samples of my bees for mdna testing and they came back c1, which means they derive from an italian or carniolan queenline. phenotypically mine (and darrel's) bees are more darkly colored than yellow, with a few black ones here and there in the mix.

as far as how our current stock would do in other regions of the country or if employed in a commercial setting? i would say that if being able to enjoy both a winter as well as a summer brood break and if not being exposed to large holding yards are big parts of why my bees are having success off treatments, then i wouldn't give them much of a chance in those other venues.

as far as not being able to make a living with them? i think i have satisfied myself that my loss rate, productivity, and annual income per hive is comparable to most of those utilizing more conventional methods. not treating really doesn't appear to be a limiting factor in this regard. with enough yards, 200 hives, and decent marketing savey i'm convinced one could support a household with these bees.

like dar i'm too small scale to be shipping large quantities of queens around the country. also like dar i've managed to get my queens into the hands of 8 additional beekeepers so far, most of which plan to propagate more from in the upcoming seasons. so between dar's group and mine that puts the number at about 20 (that we know of) in our general area working with what is proving itself to be productive and resistant survivor stock.

so we're off to a modest start here trying to propagate and spread what we think are desirable genetics. the treatment free member listing thread has demonstrated that there others achieving similar successes in other parts of the country as well. my advice has consistently been to try and get bees from those getting good results in your neck of the woods.

to be clear, i'm not trying to convert the whole universe of beekeepers to treatment free. as far as i'm concerned what you do with your bees is your business. a pertinent randy oliver quote:

"I’ve been encouraged in recent years by the number of beekeepers who appear to be successfully keeping locally-adapted stocks of bees without treatment for varroa. I am a strong supporter of their efforts, and see them as the wave of the future."

from: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/

i guess only time will tell. i really do appreciate how the tone on the forum has improved with respect to treatment free beekeeping, many thanks ya'll.


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## ruthiesbees

I was just on facebook and someone was asking whether they should start beekeeping with German or Italian bees. I asked where she was going to get German bees, as I understood they were not available in the US. She responded that her friend in upstate NY (near Liberty, NY) has 25 hives of German bees and that they sting him through his suit all the time. Still don't understand why a newbee would even consider starting with German bees if they are that mean.


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## beepro

Don't worry about the meanness just do so I.I. to calm them down. It is doable through selection as the U.K. are
doing it too. Wonder what the mutt bees will look like when I.I. with the Russians. Or will they do better I.I. with the
Cordovan here? The Cordovan is as gentle as little kitty. Every since I got my ventilated (net) bee suit no more sting for me. 
The bees simply landed on the suit and never sting. Something to do with the fabric that will calm them down.


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## 1102009

In Germany there are some people breeding them again from northern stock, in middle europe they are extinct.

In former times the black bees were selected for gentleness too, so people had no problem working them.
They were a little more mean than the average but people were used to this and many had one or two skeps located under the roof of their houses.
Here a video to show how some work with them nowadays.

I rather like the gentleness of this beekeeper, that´s probably why he can work them without protection.

http://www.imkerpate.de/dunkle-bienen-halten/


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## bobolinaloha

In 1857 German Dark bees were introduced to Hawaii for pollinating purposes. Three hives soon became nine and so forth. Eventually hives swarmed and became feral. I don't know the full history of races of bees in the Hawaiian islands, but currently Carniolan's and Italian's are bred and sold commercially. There are still feral German dark bees around here. Which, if you're looking to keep them does little good since they can't be exported.


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## Justi

jadebees said:


> I don't know about "german", but there are black bees where I live. I have been swarm trapping in this area 9 years, and got my first swarm of black bees last year. They were caught in an unpopulated area, far from human habitations.
> 
> One of the old ranchers told me his grandfather kept some of them. His grandpa was a pioneering family here. This may be a holdover of those strains.
> 
> They have every bad habit, unwanted by modern beeks. They are defensive, agressive, and runny. Stingy, and threaten readily.The only bad habit they don't show, is they don't follow far.They are very productive, showing a very high % of honey to brood area. If not for that, I would have culled the queen, and combined them to gentler bees.
> 
> Maybe not, they are beautiful, as 80 % are jet black, 20% don't even have stripes. The rest, resemble dark Carnolians. I love the way they look! They make good show&tell bees.😆
> 
> So, These are not from germany, but are American black bees. They are still unique and beautiful.


Would you sell a couple of queens


Bee Whisperer said:


> Bendriftin;
> Although I have never seen them first-hand, I was told that Buckfast bees sometimes had a greyish tone to them.


Buckfast have amm in them


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## Justi

jwcarlson said:


> Everyone who catches a swarm with a few dark bees in it thinks they've caught the unicorn "black bee".
> 
> Brother Adam didn't seem to have a whole lot of great things to say about them in Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey. So I'm not sure how fantastic they really are/were.


Buckfast Abbey believed the perfect had to be made and his beeline has amm in it


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## Gino45

bobolinaloha said:


> In 1857 German Dark bees were introduced to Hawaii for pollinating purposes. Three hives soon became nine and so forth. Eventually hives swarmed and became feral. I don't know the full history of races of bees in the Hawaiian islands, but currently Carniolan's and Italian's are bred and sold commercially. There are still feral German dark bees around here. Which, if you're looking to keep them does little good since they can't be exported.


it's true one can't export bees from Hawaii; however, queens can be exported provided the keeper has the permit to export which depends on government inspections for mites and whatever else they may find. That said, I never found a reason to want to raise black bees as opposed to the domestic strains.


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## Justi

jadebees said:


> I don't know about "german", but there are black bees where I live. I have been swarm trapping in this area 9 years, and got my first swarm of black bees last year. They were caught in an unpopulated area, far from human habitations.
> 
> One of the old ranchers told me his grandfather kept some of them. His grandpa was a pioneering family here. This may be a holdover of those strains.
> 
> They have every bad habit, unwanted by modern beeks. They are defensive, agressive, and runny. Stingy, and threaten readily.The only bad habit they don't show, is they don't follow far.They are very productive, showing a very high % of honey to brood area. If not for that, I would have culled the queen, and combined them to gentler bees.
> 
> Maybe not, they are beautiful, as 80 % are jet black, 20% don't even have stripes. The rest, resemble dark Carnolians. I love the way they look! They make good show&tell bees.😆
> 
> So, These are not from germany, but are American black bees. They are still unique and beautiful.


Would you sell a queen off it


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