# hearing that hive are collapsing again



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Collapse again?

Whos bees are collapsing?

It would be interesting to see if there is any relation to the hives that collapsed before, and the hives that seemed to be uneffected during this whole problem last season.

I dont think the almond growers are any more concerned than they were two or so years ago when the prices first shot up to 150$/hive. That price seemed to gather hives from farther abroad, and also turned many honey producers into pollinators. From what I gathered, there was no more of a shortage last year than the year before that.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Yes, its going to hit again.....

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214258&highlight=florida


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I have heard of some big mite losses in CA. but I ain't namin' names!


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Losses are natural. However when one sees that non-treating operations are loosing a great deal of their bees to mites or other sicknesses, is chemicals in the combs the issue? There will at least be bee bees living in these hives. The tirade against medicating says we are killing our bees with chemicals, however from what I have seen, it looks like the absence of treatments is the culprit.


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## mountainvalleybee (May 13, 2007)

*Collapsing Colonies*

Does anyone know what the latest statistics are on the collapsing situation,And where it is the worst.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Good Question. Are there any facts or "real" numbers we can take into consideration. So far everything sounds very secretive, for some reason.


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

> I have heard of some big mite losses in CA. but I ain't namin' names!


I just treated my bees today, so I'm hoping to lose some mites myself.

Seriously,
If you can't name names, can you report numbers?


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Its just too early to guess how many hives will be available for almond pollination.While thousands will be lost to mites and other problems,there are also lots of good hives out there too.
The reason for not naming names I am sure you understand.Contracts and business reputation are at stake here.No one wants to admit that they were asleep at the wheel either! But 'you snooze you lose' where varroa is concerned.
I am sure more info will be coming out soon as guessing bee supply for almonds is a pretty popular sport around here.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

loggermike said:


> But 'you snooze you lose' where varroa is concerned.
> .


Very well put, LM


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

loggermike said:


> No one wants to admit that they were asleep at the wheel either!


Wow, I guess not. Surviving 2006, and then sleeping at the wheel with your livelihood at stake .... ??? 

Brings back fond memories of my mother in my youth....... < smack > (open palm to the side of the head).. " What were your thinking?!"


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Driving down I5 late at night with a load of bees gives you lots of time to think about things..
Such as how a big successful outfit could get in such a predicament.Maybe its the Peter Principle http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/PETERPR.html at work in beekeeping.As hive numbers increase it takes a smart operator to manage them.With the big run up in almond prices everyone made lots of increase (me too) but this created new problems that had to be dealt with.There is a limit to how many hives can be properly taken care of.I know at this time I have reached MY limit,timewise and physical ability to keep up with the work.Others with better infrastructure and access to labor can take care of many more.
All I'm saying here is maybe the sheer numbers of hives are getting out of control for some large operators.

(and why wont the little smiley things click on anymore)


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike you are on a roll today, very well said.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Loggermike, Not sure if numbers were at play or not. But I would like to mention something that happened last week at the PSBA fall convention. We had a round table discussion with commercial/professional beekeepers. I'll withhold the names.

Three things came out in answering questions from the floor.

1)They openly commented on their use and procedures for using straight Mavrik, tactic, and other chemicals.

2) They commented that "since they lost so many hives, its a good time to replace comb. After all, some of it was 30 or more years old".

3) One commented, "Why worry about selecting stock, because once you open mate, all efforts are lost".

These three things alone, among other things told me volumes. But every time one mentions that perhaps beekeepers need to look in the mirror themselves for some of the answers, I hear things such as "He's a third generation beekeeper" or "I'm sure he knows what he's doing" or some other comment made thinking that because they are large operators and this is their livelihood, they know what they are doing. Someone here on beesource actually commented that "these things went on years ago, but certainly not today!"

And then they claim your attacking someone unfairly. Sure......


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Gee I agree with every thing here.

I talk to a guy last week that runs 6,000 hives and sent them to CA.

They are now crashing, I ask the guy when he last did a sticky broad test for mites, He said he never has.

Then, he got mad and said I'm no hobbist and hung up the phone on me.

BTW, he called me asking for help.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

My wife says maybe the reason some operators are having problems is because they aren't finding time to keep up with new research, but are spending all there time working with their outfits.Gotta keep up 
>>I ask the guy when he last did a sticky broad test for mites, He said he never has.
Now that is scary.Maybe he does ether rolls or something but for me screened sticky boards work best.
>>Then, he got mad and said I'm no hobbist
He might be now!
Bjorn:Amen .Its not something beekeeps like to hear,truth hurts.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

bjorn writes:
I hear things such as "He's a third generation beekeeper" or "I'm sure he knows what he's doing"

tecumseh replies:
well evidently grandpa knew what he was doing. one does wonder if pa and son are leaning somewhat on grandpa accomplishments? I would think a lot depends on the motivation of pa and son. 

there is one of those classical stories about the three great trial of mankind.... man againist nature, man againist man and man againist himself. the tale suggest that the latter is the most difficult of the three conflicts. are some of the current problem of bee keeping self inflicted? I suspect so, although I also suspect some of the current problem may be quite outside an individual resources or means to successfully deal with the problem.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

tecumseh said:


> I also suspect some of the current problem may be quite outside an individual resources or means to successfully deal with the problem.


Hey there Tecumseh,

Can you spell that one out for me.

Keith here, in low rent part of town.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I agree with most of what I am reading here. I think it is important to point out what most of us as professional beekeepers understand but many might misunderstand. Most likely what we are not talking about is CCD but rather PMS or something related to mite stress and the late season collapses that result or as I once heard it referred to as SSDY. CCD? I am still witholding judgement but I suspect I know why the great majority of these losses may be occuring.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Right.Losses from mites and other identifiable,preventable causes.I know what SSDY is and have heard it referred to as PPBM in California.I have only seen CCD in pictures .Looked like full frames of healthy brood (no pms)with the bees shook off.My first reaction was "Did someone shake the bees off to stage the Pic?" But if that is what CCd is , then its a BIG problem for those who have it.But I suspect CCD has become a catchall for all the industries losses.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>suspect CCD has become a catchall for all the industries losses.


It has become the beekeeper out, there are beekeeper who stil claim CCD losses west of here, yet they dont seem to want to cooperate to conferm the cause.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Confirm the cause?

Let us know when you figure that out....


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## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

the source of my information is a large commercial outfit who is big in pollination. his bees look good so far but he has talked to lots of outfits who are having problems again. what he told me is that he is hearing mostly bad reports on the state of the current bee situation.

i dont think every time a hive dies or dwindles it can be blamed on ccd. not much is working on mites now so it has to be at least in part a problem of parasitic mite syndrome or something to do with heavy mite loads.

russia picked up what was left alive and bred it into what is now the russian queen program. there are always some hives in an outfit that look good in the spring no matter how bad things were overwintering. these would be good candidates to breed. nature wont allow for an entire species to die off.


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## Sarge (Jun 26, 2006)

>>nature wont allow for an entire species to die off.<<

Famous last words. I'm sure the Dodo disagrees.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

>Famous last words. I'm sure the Dodo disagrees.

...and don't forget dinosaurs, where nature was the cause of their extinction and not man as in the case of the Dodo.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

bjorn bee and loggermike:

I'll be the first to agree we have many differant causes making it difficult to keep bees healthy. First off queens dont last like they use to(I believe it is related to miteicides in the comb..especially chumuphos a queen spends months in contact with the wax laying where a worker bee spends a few weeks in contact), controlling mites and the viruses they carry, crazy weather. The biggest cause of having sick colonies is mites and/or mite related. 
However the true colonies collapsing of CCD that had LOW or NO mite loads with perfect brood patterns and the colony disappears in a few days is insecticide (neonictinoids)! Guys please do some research on how this chemical works....get your head out of the sand! IT DOES NOT WORK LIKE previous insecticides! It works in two ways ....weakening the bees immune system(ie fungus, iapv) and social abnormalties....(ie flying off and not returning) Mr. Showwalter (Beeline apiaries newsletter)has written a good articly on how this insecticide works and how it got EPA approval($$$$) THe bees I lost last year had PERFECT brood patterns, young queens (some less than 2 months old) mite counts were ZERO to 1...and they dissappeared in 5 days! I hate to be argumentive.....but please open your eyes! Look at tis and use some connon sence! I know of one beekeeper who sel numerous nucs every year....his wax (brood comb)is less than 5 yrs old....and he has only used tea tree oil, thymol,and wintergrees in last 5 years....yet 1/2 of his colonies flew off an dnever returned! DUH!!!


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## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

Sarge said:


> >>nature wont allow for an entire species to die off.<<
> 
> Famous last words. I'm sure the Dodo disagrees.


apples and oranges. no one was managing dodos or dinasaurs, feeding them giving them medicine etc. they think a meteor killed the dinasaurs, not an illness.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

suttonbeeman said:


> bjorn bee and loggermike:
> 
> I'll be the first to agree we have many differant causes making it difficult to keep bees healthy. First off queens dont last like they use to(I believe it is related to miteicides in the comb..especially chumuphos a queen spends months in contact with the wax laying where a worker bee spends a few weeks in contact), controlling mites and the viruses they carry, crazy weather. The biggest cause of having sick colonies is mites and/or mite related.
> However the true colonies collapsing of CCD that had LOW or NO mite loads with perfect brood patterns and the colony disappears in a few days is insecticide (neonictinoids)! Guys please do some research on how this chemical works....get your head out of the sand! IT DOES NOT WORK LIKE previous insecticides! It works in two ways ....weakening the bees immune system(ie fungus, iapv) and social abnormalties....(ie flying off and not returning) Mr. Showwalter (Beeline apiaries newsletter)has written a good articly on how this insecticide works and how it got EPA approval($$$$) THe bees I lost last year had PERFECT brood patterns, young queens (some less than 2 months old) mite counts were ZERO to 1...and they dissappeared in 5 days! I hate to be argumentive.....but please open your eyes! Look at tis and use some connon sence! I know of one beekeeper who sel numerous nucs every year....his wax (brood comb)is less than 5 yrs old....and he has only used tea tree oil, thymol,and wintergrees in last 5 years....yet 1/2 of his colonies flew off an dnever returned! DUH!!!



Who said anything about discounting neonicotinoids? I'm talking about keeping the healthiest bees we can. Maybe bees can handle some pesticides if they didn't have all the other things piled on.
Funny you stepped in Sutton. Want to take a guess who was on the round table discussion group talking about illegal chems, or the 30 year old comb, etc?

I'm simple pointing out things BESIDES neonicotinoids that could be compounding some of the problems. I'm not discounting it. But for the years I was told as an inspector to "ignore it and keep your mouth shut", followed by people like you who outright deny ANY problems or contributing factors, I'm not so much the one with my "head in the sand" as you say.

So go on with your 40 year old comb. You stick up for the next "friend" who pours chems on shop towels like candy. I'll continue on my path. You go down yours. 

Funny how Showwalter was just repeating what Dave has told him personally. But I also see that he did talk of mite control, nutrition, praying, and a host of other things that one should do. Seems like that little newsletter you mention did not focus solely on neonicotinoids after all. Or did you forget that part. 

And more than one person has brought it to Showwalters attention of his POORLY worded newsletter that has suggested and dang near claimed that Penn State researchers were bought and paid for. Most of that stuff he mentioned is nothing new, and is the same bandwagon chatter that has been repeated many time prior.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

lake thompson honey said:


> apples and oranges. no one was managing dodos or dinasaurs, feeding them giving them medicine etc. they think a meteor killed the dinasaurs, not an illness.


isn't a meteor part of nature? the fire from the meteor an element of nature? could all the smoke and dust inhaled caused respiratory illness? could the lack of food cause weakened immune systems which made the dinosaurs more susceptible to illness and disease? the meteor was a cause of much illness, imo.

"a surprising fossil find shows that the honeybees, Apis mellifera, we know and love today were also evolving in the years before the Age of the Dinosaur ended 65 million years ago."

It's a good thing that the meteor didn't wipe out all of the honeybees' ancestors like it did the majority of dinosaurs. 

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/columnist/vergano/2006-10-29-bee-fossil_x.htm


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

mr jarrett ask:
Hey there Tecumseh,

Can you spell that one out for me.

Keith here, in low rent part of town.

tecumseh replies:
well quite evidently keith no individual beek brought IAPV or the new strain of nosema here just so they could have something to do... so the introduction of the disease vector was 'likely' quite outside the scope of the individual beekeeper. I for one place a lot of this cause on 'free trade' and it looks quite obvious to me that some folks profited (the honey packers) and some folks payed (in this case the beekeepers).

most beekeepeer (myself most definitely included) would still likely have no idea what we were dealing with (my thinking from the first being that a list of causes was likely involved) without the aid of a lot of science geeks who are more than happy to look into some microscope and tell us what they see. without a lot of folks putting their head together (science types and beekeepers) and determining this worked here but didn't work there, we will likely never come to a workable solution to the problem.

not that I have really totally disagreed with your own hypothesis keith (I think my prior post suggest this to some degree) that some of this problem is quite likely self inflicted. I for one have ALWAYS suspected that we all acquire 'cultural' practices that quickly become habitual. pretty soon we are doing this or that cause grandpa did it that way. old habits, like old ways of thinking about things, are very difficult behaviors to modify.

for myself keith I do prefer the trailer trash part of town... this after all is where most of the real folks reside.

ps... could you send me a receipt by pm for how you add thymol to your feed???? do I need to say pretty please? and thank bro...


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

tech: you just need to order 1000 pounds of pollen patties and PM like 1000 times. And even then, there is no gaurentee.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> tech: you just need to order 1000 pounds of pollen patties and PM like 1000 times. And even then, there is no gaurentee.


Easy there Chef,


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

he he  Sorry keith... Shame... all shame. I will go in the corner now.... 

p.s. how old is your son in the pic you posted? He gonna take over the business?


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Then, he got mad and said I'm no hobbist and hung up the phone on me.
> BTW, he called me asking for help.


Now thats funny. Well sort of. Big beekeepers need to take some lessons from big cotton producers. It may be time to start hiring 'scouts' or IPM specialists to asses an outfits apiaries through the season with the latest research and proper management in mind. Some cotton consultants are full time consultants charging big bucks, but cotton producers pay them because its economically beneficial to both parties. The cotton producers are too busy running a business to stay up with the latest IPM, so they hire consultants. 

But if beekeepers are calling people for help then hanging up on them......


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

That a great idea Michael.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

bjornbee

I understand what you are saying...and i also can guess who you are talking about. I will agree old combs harbor lots of bad things(disease, chemicals, afb,ect)...the big thing is its hard to replace alot of comb with short crops and cheap honey and live. Big companies control us little farmers. Dont think for a minute the chemical companies dont make a killing on mite control (not only a profit but a killing)...look at the cost of maverik vs strips.....does maverik cause more bee damage? who knows buy neither one is good! But alot of big guys are trying to hang on. all this said.....the classic colony ccd collapse with healthy brood in my little ole opinion is insecticide and I dont think it would matter if you started a colony on virgin organic foundation and used powdered sugar(which I'm usiing as one method of mite control) the bees would collapse if exposed to imaidcloprid or other neonictinoids!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

MichaelW said:


> Now thats funny. Well sort of. .


No Michael, your right, that was funny.

Bjorn talked about spelling out the truth on another thread, why can't you just call it the way it is with out offending someone.

I was laughing after he hung up on me. Just because I only have 1,500 hives does mean I'm a rookie, But that's what he was implying.

Like loggerMike said, he may be the hobbist before long. LOL Keith

I never looked at numbers and judged a keeper by his numbers.

My good freind Randy Oliver runs 500 hives, and is a sharp keeper.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Let us know when you figure that out.... 

Thats the point, losses have been attributed to many different causes last winter. Huge losses, by some, not by others. yet there hasnt been a case lost from CCD as of yet.

I have seen the pictures, I have heard the beekeepers talk. I believe these beekeepers experienced unusual heavy losses. Diagnosable losses. And its depressing,

Does anyone actually know how many losses were attributed to CCD as it is diagnosed and how many losses were due to previously know aliments such as viruses, mites, brood diseases? I have a feeling many losses are being blanketed under CCD.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ian said:


> Does anyone actually know how many losses were attributed to CCD as it is diagnosed and how many losses were due to previously know aliments such as viruses, mites, brood diseases? I have a feeling many losses are being blanketed under CCD.


From what I understand, there is only one person who knows, but he is away on a trip right now.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>I never looked at numbers and judged a keeper by his numbers.
Thats right .I have too many problems of my own to judge someone else.Any thoughts I have on others outfits is just in the interest of finding solutions.I have no doubt some pretty good beekeeps are up against something they never saw before with CCD.
But like the guy that apparently didn't monitor his mite levels well enough to keep them from collapsing, Keith asked a basic question.The guy could have helped himself by listening instead of getting pissy about it.Lots of big egos in this business.
Some hobbiests are pretty sharp observers.But I think I like the observations of the sideliners best.They have enough invested to be serious about it, but since they often don't depend completely on the bees for a living,they can be pretty innovative.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> . . .the classic colony ccd collapse with healthy brood in my little ole opinion is insecticide and I dont think it would matter if you started a colony on virgin organic foundation and used powdered sugar(which I'm usiing as one method of mite control) the bees would collapse if exposed to imaidcloprid or other neonictinoids! -suttonbeeman


Considering that neonicotinoids have been widely and heavily used for more than ten years, how do you explain the sudden appearance of CCD only last year, then?

And, didn't similar "CCD-like" event occur historically, even before neonicotinoids were created? How do you explain those events?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

suttonbeeman said:


> bjornbee
> 
> I understand what you are saying...and i also can guess who you are talking about. I will agree old combs harbor lots of bad things(disease, chemicals, afb,ect)...the big thing is its hard to replace alot of comb with short crops and cheap honey and live. Big companies control us little farmers. Dont think for a minute the chemical companies dont make a killing on mite control (not only a profit but a killing)...look at the cost of maverik vs strips.....does maverik cause more bee damage? who knows buy neither one is good! But alot of big guys are trying to hang on. all this said.....the classic colony ccd collapse with healthy brood in my little ole opinion is insecticide and I dont think it would matter if you started a colony on virgin organic foundation and used powdered sugar(which I'm usiing as one method of mite control) the bees would collapse if exposed to imaidcloprid or other neonictinoids!



Sutton,
I guess what get me going, is the "Ka-ching" the "profit", and all the other comments concerning large companies that may of somehow greases the approval process to maximize profits. Yes, I can say that perhaps things should not work that way. But I don't automatically condemn or suggest negative motives because someone wants to make a buck.

But if we are to blame that game, lets look at the bee industry.

What caused mite resistance to strips over the past 20 years? Ignorance? Laziness? Cutting corners for profit?

What has pushed some beekeepers to use illegal chems? Ignorance? Laziness? Cutting corners for profit?

What has caused some to be elated with large loads of bees coming from around the world, even when pre-shipped warnings were sounded? Ignorance? Laziness? Cutting corners for profit?

I could go on with the examples.

You see, I think its a shame that a chemical is perhaps causing so many problems. And yes, this one time, we can all look to some big company and say bad things. But we are an industry that is no better than any other. We shoot ourselves in the foot over and over again, and only when someone else fires a bullet, we get all righteous.

This industry would weather these "other" bullets better if it were not for our own ignorance, our own laziness, and our own cut corners for profit.

And it bugs me that whenever someone says look in the mirror at ourselves, and some don't see the problems that exist within our own industry, and many times no better than some big chem company. Perhaps neonicotinoids is a larger problem, and perhaps a more devastating scenario, but lets at least base it on some of the same principles or faults we exhibit ourselves. Ignorance, Laziness, and cutting corners for profit. Claiming someone has been forced into these very questionable practices and merely do such things to "hang on", should be seen as a reason some should get OUT of the bee industry. Others will be better off down the road.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Funny MichaelW mentioned the IPM specialists. That is something I have been thinking for some time. If I just had someone who knew something about bees just go from yard to yard all summer long and track mite levels through various means so you could be ready to move quickly into the areas where and when treatment is needed. It can be such a guessing game with the "asleep at the wheel' scenerio at one extreme and the over treatment contamination thing at the other. Commercial guys take a lot of hits on this site for some of the things they do (and in my opinion the criticism is often on the mark) but most of this criticism comes from people who have never had the responsibility and financial pressure of managing a big operation.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

jlyon said:


> Commercial guys take a lot of hits on this site for some of the things they do (and in my opinion the criticism is often on the mark) but most of this criticism comes from people who have never had the responsibility and financial pressure of managing a big operation.



And....your point?


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## themrbee (Oct 20, 2006)

BjornBee said:


> And....your point?


So who will pick up the slack if all the big beeks go out?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

themrbee said:


> So who will pick up the slack if all the big beeks go out?


Is there some connection between these two points that I'm missing?

As for the far fetched question, I have great faith in the capitalistic system we have with supply and demand. The human spirit of creativity, hard word, reward, profit, opportunity, etc., will always see a void being filled by the next person. Of course I'm not a doomsday-er who needs to misquote some dead guy and say the world will end in 4 years if not for the honeybee... 

But anyways, "who will pick up the slack" will no doubt be a better group than the one's who failed. That's usually the way it works. May be different business models. But I see plenty of problems with the commercial beekeeping industry of today anyways. So yes, thats my answer....Somebody with a better business model, and less problems.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The thing is, the rest of us are facing the same problems as they are. 
Your beekeeper have the pollination industry to subsidise their income if need be. Increasing fees as bee shortages occur. could possibly redirect the industry and allow smaller operators to start up and fill the void.
What about in the honeymarket? Shortage of bees in a country doesnt increase the price of honey wholesale. So where do these beekeepers fall back on when they dont have pollination as an option?
It doesnt matter what size of operation your involved in, or business modles. They all are facing the same problems and all are trying to salvage a living from it.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Ian said:


> The thing is, the rest of us are facing the same problems as they are.
> Your beekeeper have the pollination industry to subsidise their income if need be. Increasing fees as bee shortages occur. could possibly redirect the industry and allow smaller operators to start up and fill the void.
> What about in the honeymarket? Shortage of bees in a country doesnt increase the price of honey wholesale. So where do these beekeepers fall back on when they dont have pollination as an option?
> It doesnt matter what size of operation your involved in, or business modles. They all are facing the same problems and all are trying to salvage a living from it.



Ian, That entrepreneurial spirit, you know, the one with success and rewards going to the one's with creativity, hard work, and persistence. That usually involves thinking and doing, outside the box as they say.

When you start lumping EVERYONE together, and thinking were all in the same box, then failure is that much closer.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I hear a lot of criticism and not alot of real practical answers. 

I dont believe there are too many operators out there that arnt creativity, hard work, and persistence. It is what makes us beekeepers, and it is what has kept us in business all these years. Look at all the innovation that has come about since the mite. Look at all the study and practice of these alternative treatments. Look at the breeding programs that have started and look at all their accomplishments. 

We have come so far in the last 10 years, yet sometimes after all the efforts the problems just seem to compound themselves and over take our best efforts.

We are all grasping for straws here, you can lump that one together for all of us.
Especially when there is a sudden large loss event that occurs in the industry as CCD. Or mite problems, that we now refer as resistant problems. Or environmental situations that are completely out of our control. I know of many operators up here that lost most of their stock, not because of ignorance, or greed, but pure and straight bad luck with fall weather conditions. I dont know many operations that come back quickly after loosing most of thier stock.

You know honey isnt trading for much more than it did twenty years ago, and I can sure tell you the expenses doubled, even tripled from that time ago. Huge loss event will bankrupt the best of them, and with all these compounding problems we are challenged with in the industry, that loss event is always on the back of our minds. 

Beekeeping is farming, innovation will only get your business so far, then economics take hold and control the rest.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Ah Yes, Ian. What practical answers would you like?

Mention farming did you? Lets look at farming. Do you know what happens when a farmer puts seed on bad soil? Do you know what happens when a farmer places the same crop on the same field year after year?

Basic concepts huh?

But do they apply with bees? I say yes. But do beekeepers realize and adjust WHERE their liveliness sits (apiary yards are)? Do they understand the parallel concept and what happens when bees are on the same comb for 30 or 40 years?

You can talk all day long about gasoline, this bug or that bug, and this treatment or that treatment...but until the Farmer understands the basics of crop rotation and soil factors, then aren't you just wasting your time?

I think its the same with self-inflicted contaminated comb, going back to the same contaminated fields, and not understanding how 30 or 40 year old comb effects bees.

I think the two examples, one being the farmer and his field, and the beekeeper and his bees/comb, are quite similar. Although I would think that most farmer actually do something about improving the soil and using crop rotation, etc.

I can't say that for most of the migratory or big operations that I have seen with bees. Most just don't get it. 

And regardless of how many people deny any wrong-doing in commercial beekeeping practices, two weeks ago at a state level meeting, it was very evident with open discussions of illegal chemicals, 30 year old comb, and no understanding of genetics, that some commercial beekeeper don't get it. But I know, this will be the point when someone suggests they are forced into this due to survival.

Let me know if you want to discuss any one thing in particular....its going to be a long winter....


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I do think that a lot of of the commerical beekeepers will be replaced with other operations that do things a little differently... maybe better. 

But I do think we are just focusing on the monies that come from pollination. Beekeepers put hives in one area of a mono crop. Why? Why do it when the bees can come out weak from pollination that crop. That plus moving the bees causes stress. But I know what others will say "We have been doing it for years without any ramifications". Those are the beekeeprs who will be replaced. 

Talking about finanicals... other ways to do it. Yes, whole sale prices mighth ave stayed the same but the end consumer is paying much higher prices (as they should) then before. So, to me, it is all about marketing to THOSE people. But some beekeepers will say "We do not have the time to bottle one pounders and sell them". Those are the beekeepers who will be replaced. 

One can sell splits to get some money. But some will say "we dont have time for this". Those are the beekeepers who will be replaced. 

One can breed some queens. But some will say "We just dont have the time for that". Those are the beekeepers who will be replaced. 

What, in my opinion, larger operations do not do is to market directly to the sideliners and smaller beekeepers. Is will cause them to only rely on pollination contracts. Putting all eggs in one basket. 

I do think that one needs to keep an open mind and diversafy to gain the mose profit. If not, they will be replaced. History has shown this.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> >> But I know what others will say "We have been doing it for years without any ramifications". Those are the beekeeprs who will be replaced.
> 
> If so, who will fill the pollination void?
> 
> ...


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Chef,
I can't agree more.

My business model is based on a "per hive income".

As example, if you have 500 hives, how can one make $150 (profit after expenses)dollars per hive, while not working yourself to death?

Would that be 1 pollination contract and 1 nuc (150 almonds and 75 nuc sale afterwards, $225 total)) or for someone not shipping to California, ($50 dollar pollination contract, two nuc sales $150, $200 total) or some other arrangement with honey, pollination, nucs, queens, and other things considered.

So lets see, 200 dollars per hive then minus expenses. What expenses would be depends on individual management. But lets say 50 dollars per hive. That means 150 per hive profit on 500 hives, income range 75,000 per year.

I suppose some would laugh at 75,000 per year, while others would be happy. Some would like the off-time through the winter although there is plenty to do in preparations for next year.

And you need to factor in expenses of getting the initial hives going. But how many business models has the equipment being paid off in 1 year? Of course you want to spread out this over a few year for taxes. 

Myself, I look at a per hive profit level. Whether others can do the same model based on location and opportunity, I don't know. but i've never seen such a bunch of business people in one industry all cry poor mouth all the time.

Keith,
Not sure who you are talking about, but lets not cry to loud out there in that fancy new building you have. You know the one, the one with that 30 footer RV parked next to all that new equipment you have stored. Nice pictures by the way! I'm sure some would look at what they have and question why others are complaining... 

Post # 74.... http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214207&page=8


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## michituck (Nov 21, 2007)

I'm a small timer also.
I'm happy to clear $50 per hive in a year.
That includes the honey and any wax fro that hive.
We sell the honey of course and in the winter I do cut and curl candles from the wax.
We have our bees in set locations so no pollination contracts factor in to it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Chef Isaac said:


> I do think that a lot of of the commerical beekeepers will be replaced with other operations that do things a little differently... maybe better.
> 
> But I do think we are just focusing on the monies that come from pollination. Beekeepers put hives in one area of a mono crop. Why? Why do it when the bees can come out weak from pollination that crop. That plus moving the bees causes stress. But I know what others will say "We have been doing it for years without any ramifications". Those are the beekeeprs who will be replaced.
> 
> ...


Chef,

It sounds like you are talking about the survival of the most fit. I agree w/ what you have stated, for the most part. I believe that most beekeepers just want to keep bees. And most commercial beekeepers just want to make a living keeping bees. 

Many of the commercial beekeepers that I know do sell nucs. Some raise queens, most don't. Most of them pollinate one or more crops. Most of them don't have CCD problems, though they do have a constant fight w/ varroa. Some of us are concerned about how long we have before AHB gets to SC.

The commercial beekeepers that I know do not put all of their eggs into one basket. Honey production, wholesaling honey to packers, bottling and marketing their own honey, bottling for Really Raw, pollinating, selling nucs or hives, selling wax, selling honey from the house or unattended farm stand. These are some of the things that commercial beekeepers in NY State do to diversify their income. I doubt that this is unique to NYS.

People who are in business do what they do well, that's how they make their money. I don't think that you should critisize someone for not having time to put honey into 1 lb jars. The time spent selling one one pound jars costs the beekeeper more than they get, if they are a commercial beekeper. Most of the guys that I know do take the time, when they feel they can spare it. Many of them are just too busy.

I hope you go work for Sheri and John sometime. You'll see what I mean. I do appreciate your point of view.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

*I'd be rich with those #'s*

BjornBee, Might do some research into the business side of beekeeping, if I were to PROFIT $ 150 per hive I'd be rich. Please do not mix up revenue with profit. BIG diference. Revenue is what comes in, Expenses is what goes out, remember to pay for your own labor, Profit is what is left over. Also remember to pay for equipment, queens, feed, etc, etc.....

The bigeest challenge I have face was going into winter 3 yrs ago with 500 hives, in excellent conditon, then only being able to rent 165 for pollination. 335 x 80 = 26,800.00. Lost revenue, expenses stayed the same. Then I had to rebuild from the live hives to get back to 500 so I could make a profit. I spent an additional 20,000 +++ doing that to get back to 500 only to have it happen again.

Now back to $$$ and beekeeping, At the CA State Beekeeper meeting last week I had spoke to many commercial operator and the expenses per hive per yr is about $ 140.00.

So figure 150 from almond pollination, 35 from Avocado/seed pollination, and a short honey crop in the midwest and you will find that the profit per hive on an average yr is $ 15 to 40.

That's all for now, And yes the industry has to adapt to new methods, just do chastise someone who you think is not changing because you have not YET been affected by what is happening. When I first started losing hive no one in my area believed me , now they do.


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## RSUCHAN (Oct 20, 2006)

*Seems it's back!!!!*

Spoke with our neighbor last nite. 
He over winters in Texas & goes to CA. for almonds.
He had very little good to say about this on going problem.
He spoke of several good, very well run outfits that are already down 30% on count as of this week.
These are his neighbors in Texas.
He tells every one is just sick as it seems every base under the sun was thought to be covered by these guys & here we go again.
He also tells me that water is very short in CA so a lot of trees did not get a real good drink this fall.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

LSPender said:


> BjornBee, Might do some research into the business side of beekeeping, if I were to PROFIT $ 150 per hive I'd be rich. Please do not mix up revenue with profit. BIG diference. Revenue is what comes in, Expenses is what goes out, remember to pay for your own labor, Profit is what is left over. Also remember to pay for equipment, queens, feed, etc, etc.....
> 
> The bigeest challenge I have face was going into winter 3 yrs ago with 500 hives, in excellent conditon, then only being able to rent 165 for pollination. 335 x 80 = 26,800.00. Lost revenue, expenses stayed the same. Then I had to rebuild from the live hives to get back to 500 so I could make a profit. I spent an additional 20,000 +++ doing that to get back to 500 only to have it happen again.
> 
> ...


If a commercial operator can only profit 15 to 40 dollars per year, then they either need to go back to business class 101, or I'm missing something.

I don't really agree with your "pay yourself, and what's left over is profit". As a sole owner, whatever is left after the equipment costs, etc., goes into my pocket. To suggest that I pay myself 50,000 dollars a year or some other amount, then claim the business is not profitable because there is nothing left after I fill my pocket, is nonsense. But it does explain how you may suggest that beekeepers average somewhere in the 15 dollar range per hive, per year.

I would hope anyone making 15 dollars a year per hive, gets out, or talks to a business planner or advisor.

I can easily sell two nucs from every hive in my backyard, totaling 150 dollars, and after the frames, foundation and other costs.....make, er should I say profit, way more than 15 dollars. 
Maybe some of those big operators been sniffing those chemicals they throw around.

I know side-liners that do nothing but harvest honey. One averages around 60 pounds a hive per year. And even at 2 dollars per pound (120.00), it don't take no $105 dollars to maintain the hive each year.

You can slice and dice, and rationalize this model or that model. But for anyone to make 15 dollars a year as a professional beekeeper is missing something.
Earlier, I did say that others will fill the void, but perhaps with other business models. These models may include having a cost factor per hive less than 140.00 per year.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*Profit question*

LSPender,

In your profit calculation, how much are those commercial guys figuring for labor per year for the owner for the whole year? In other words, I agree with what Bjorn's points, but I wonder how much of the "expense" is actually the labor for the work. 

Ndvan


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you don't know your true costs, all of your costs, you can't accurately assess your profit or loss.

Kinda like when I talked on another thread about what it costs me to own and run my F-450 Superduty.

I just spent $2600.00 for trucking to get my colonies to SC. On top of that there is my per mile cost of driving me and my Bobcat to SC. Plus meals and lodging expenses. Roughly speaking that's about $3500.00 just to get my bees south. By the time I get them back home next April the cost will probably be around $10,000.00.

With those 400 colonies I can generate $20,000.00 in pollination income. I should be able to harvest 60 to 80 lbs of honey from them too, before Oct. Yada, yada, yada, etc., etc.. After I do my taxes in January I'll have some idea if I made a profit or loss.

The guys that I know who appear to be making a profit as beekeepers often have other income sources or have been at it long enough to have everything paid for, all of the kids are off on their own and no longer a drain on the pocket book and some are divorced or have "requeened". Most are living in very modest homes. Not McMansions by any means. They are also do it yourselfer workaholics. If that's not too strong a word for it.

Chef Issac, what do you do to put food on the table? Run a restaurant? If so, that's alot of work. Do you make anything at it?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>When you start lumping EVERYONE together, and thinking were all in the same box,

Now BjornBee, Sounds like your lumping everyone in the sector in the same box.

Just a quick thought,

You compare the problems to current farming practices. Crop rotation, soil quality and land use. Out of the few farmers that disregard these concepts, the majority do. Why, becasue it is the only sustainable way to manage the operations. Margins are too small to make mistakes in this business, and utilizing the land to its best is what we do. And we in North America do a great job, I would argue the best in the world. Look at our food quality, at our production stats and look at the quality of our soils as compaired to yeaster years. We produce the finest cheapest food in the world for you the consumer feed on. Its a product of global trade and on going technology into agra inovations. Its a modle relyant on subsidy support with the increase of competition world wide. Ultimately its the consumer that benifets. The agricultural industry has gone a long way in the last 20 years, the imporvements in our practices show in the quality product we grow and in the soils we grow it in.

Your choosing a bad area for comparison, unless your focusing on the comercialized aspect of now a day farming. Not saying I like it, but it has provided the urban dwellers a way out of growing thier own food, not to mention spending half thier pay cheque on it and supporting thier farmer neighbours. We provide them with convienence of buying food.

Its exactly the same with beekeeping, I dont agree with your impression. 

Got to run now, Ill chat later


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

*Back to the origonal intention of this thread*

Just got off the phone with one of the local commercial guys fresh returned from moving bees to CA, and it sounds like everyone he has recently talked to (3-4 other beeks) and most have 35%-40% losses already.

Also, I have taken several calls personally from other beeks looking for bees already. This would seem not to bode to well for the almond bee supply. 

Anybody else hearing things like this? My impression is that these are reliable beekeepers, not just rumor mongers. 

Maybe these are just the guys who are behind on management, I could only guess, but it does seem a bit early to hear guys scrambling for bees. I have also heard from several beeks that their bees are looking fantastic. Luckily they were also queen clients, so who knows how it will all shake out.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

*hives*

JBJ, I am hearing the same things, My own experiance is that after summer honey in North Dakota, 25 % of hive are outs, from all sources.

Following up with BjornBee,

Yes you have to pay your self a wage as a commercial beekeeper. I can go work for any farming operation in Ca and get paid 60 to 80,000 per year. That is not profit that is wages that I live on. Profit is extra that you build business with and invest so I can have my money work for me.

Back to different subject: Yes we always need to replace comb & boxes to keep up the operation, BUT reality comes when you have an UNKNOWN factor ( CCD) come thru your operation for 2 years that cuts revenue by 2/3, now I am on survival and paying for those 2 years. And yes I am paying for it, this past year with all the troubles we made headway. I will greatly help to have a good overall year which will put us back in a positive cash flow.

So, with that have a Happy Thanksgiving All, and my your year be profitable in many ways.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BjornBee said:


> So lets see, 200 dollars per hive then minus expenses. What expenses would be depends on individual management. But lets say 50 dollars per hive. That means 150 per hive profit on 500 hives, income range 75,000 per year.[/url]


Well Bjorn,
These numbers are CSBA , member numbers this last year .
Operating cost $125.00 per hive.

Now if we said $200.00 gross minus $125.00 operating leaves us with $75.00 net per hive.

These are not my numbers, but for the avgerage keeper there close.

Bjorn, much of what you said I agree 100% with, like let the free market work.

JBJ, All the guys I'm hearing are doing fine here, mixing sub for a guy that runs 5,000 from ND, I saw his bees today and they looked good. I think it's a wait and see.


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## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

does anyone have any current updates or news?


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## beehoppers (Jun 16, 2005)

*More back to the original intent of this thread...*

Bump...


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## DennisBEEK (Feb 15, 2008)

*Is CCD a worldwide problem?*

I only know that Colony Collapse Disorder is a big problem in North America. I also know a virus has been traced within Israel as a possible cause, but I am wondering (and concerned) if CCD is a worldwide problem. 
Replies from members in Europe, Asia, Africa, and South America are most welcome. 
Thank you, 
DennisBEEK
Chicago, Illinois USA


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

*lazy*

management is the key ACTION. LIFE IS LIKE A BOX OF BEES.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>if CCD is a worldwide problem. 


The symtoms of CCD are very specific, and I have only heard of this kind of loss from US beekeepers. Even if these symtoms are caused by a number of contributing factors, the symtom is specific, so only these specific kind of losses can be associated with the lable of CCD.
I am hearing of large losses elsewhere in the world beekeeping community, and these losses dont follow the same characteristics as CCD losses found in California.
They are mostly able to atribute the losses to specific dieases or problems.
Partly the reason everyone is so confused about this particular problem. Whats different about the way everyone else is raising thier bees?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*My last checked site, Highway 92 @ Crystal Springs lake 94402:*

13 starters in fall, no mite treatments

6 dead
1 queenless small cell (the only SC on site) swarm from a 6/06 Allstar
2 tiny worthless clusters
1 ok
3 looked good - One of these a huge recovery from AFB last summer eating a five year old terramycin patty out of the freezer. Clean brood from top to bottom. This site out in the woods has always been an AFB magnet.

Guess that spoils my title of "Organic Ollie" for this year.


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