# Double walled TBH with airspace...



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you guys/gals know if anyone has ever built a TBH that had double walls with an airspace between the walls for insulation?

I'm someone has. The WBC hive and the Chaff hives of the late 1800's had double walls. But they are twice as much lumber to build and they weigh twice as much.

> I know it will increase the cost of the hive structure, but if it increases the survivability of bee's in said hive then it may be worth it.

There is the issue. I doubt it will make a noticable difference in survivability.

>I was thinking of building a TBH with an outer wall of 3/4 marine plywood, good and weather-proof. I would then seal the edges with a 1 X 1 or perhaps strips of the marine plywood to create a sealed air gap between the outer wall and an inner hive made with standard 3/4 plywood. It would essentially be a hive within a hive with sealed air space between them. This would be a warm hive in the winter and a cool hive in the summer.

If you're going to have a double wall anyway, why not make one of those, or both of those 3/8" plywood to save money and weight. Better yet, just glue some styrofoam on the outside.

>What do you guys think. Is this a good idea or folly.

I think it's too much money and too much work, but it won't hurt anything if you have the money and the motivation.


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## Meadow Stone Farm (May 4, 2005)

*double wall*

Mine is a double wall. It was my first hive ever, the bees didn't survive that winter. I doubt it was the hive construction, as they starved, but didn't have enough stores from other management issues. I basically built a 3/4" stick frame and sandwiched it with plywood on both sides. It has a hinged bottom board, insulated cover and is massive. In fact, it sits empty out near one of my Langstroms. If anybody wants it, they are welcome to it. It still has most of the bars I milled for it in there. I have some photos kicking around the internet somewhere....

Kris


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## Dinor (Mar 6, 2007)

Scut Farkas said:


> ................
> I was thinking of building a TBH with an outer wall of 3/4 marine plywood, good and weather-proof. I would then seal the edges with a 1 X 1 or perhaps strips of the marine plywood to create a sealed air gap between the outer wall and an inner hive made with standard 3/4 plywood. It would essentially be a hive within a hive with sealed air space between them. This would be a warm hive in the winter and a cool hive in the summer.
> 
> What do you guys think. Is this a good idea or folly.


For me it kind of negates one of the biggest advantages of TBH's, it's simplicity. Good luck with it though!


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## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

I've seen somewhere someone made a TBH out of used corrugated plastic political campaign signs...two layers of the plastic with an airspace and light wood frame sandwiched between.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

The biggest advantage of a TBH is not in simplicity of design, It is in simplicity of managment.


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## mobees (Jul 26, 2004)

*DBL walled*

I my yard there are no welfare bees. If they are weak
or can't take the cold, it's their tough luck. Just a simple
wrap and warm cover. My own opinion is wintering
ability is almost as important as honey production
and can save money in the long run.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

mobees said:


> My own opinion is wintering
> ability is almost as important as honey production
> and can save money in the long run.


I agree.

There is a paradox here: beekeepers' desire to improve bees' survival rate in winter leads to better insulation, means less work for the bees to do in keeping warm, means faster consumption of winter stores, means greater risk of starvation.

I have probably told this story elsewhere, but during the winter of 2004-5, Buckfast Abbey lost about half of all it's production colonies. Whether this was due to mis-management or 'natural' causes is for others to judge, but as I was working there at the time, I had the opportunity to observe that the best survival rate was found at Brother Adam's mating apiary at 1500ft in the middle of Dartmoor: a freezing, windswept location deliberately chosen by him in 1925 for its isolation. Whereas all the production hives in the lowland apiaries were big, modified Dadants, 20" square and a foot deep, the hives on the moor were made up of two to four small colonies, each on about six to eight, half-Dadant frames, all within double-walled boxes mounted about three feet off the ground. Most of these small colonies - a good 75% I would say - made it through the winter, despite frost and snow, with about an inch-and-a-half of timber around them. Brother Adam deliberately gave them a hard time in order to test his precious queens: if their progeny didn't make it through a Dartmoor winter, they were not good enough to stay in the Buckfast gene pool.

This may seem, to some, like a harsh attitude, but I believe it is one that we need to adopt if we want tough, self-sufficient bees that can fend off disease and pests without help from man-made medications. 

So we need to find the happy medium between neglect and over-insulation. Exactly where that point is will vary according to local conditions. Where I am, 3/4" of pine seems to be OK, but we rarely get temperatures below -5C. In hotter places, the job of insulation is more to keep excessive heat out. Just as there is no such thing as a perfect bee for all conditions, neither is there a perfect hive.


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