# Mating nuc question



## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

In anticipation of raising some Queens this spring I will be setting up double mini mating nucs..not many but a few.

So with the half size frames how does one get them drawn and filled with honey and pollen? 

Do you rig them up in your regular sized hives to get them drawn or what?

I must be missing the obvious here but I am trying to sort it out without advice from those that have been there and done that.

Thanks


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Janne - When you say mini mating nucs, are you speaking of the ones with the little tiny combs that are like 3 inches tall in styrofoam boxes, or are you speaking of a standard Lang frame that is cut in two in a cavity sized for it?

If it is the latter of the two, the most simple way to get them drawn out is either to rig them on the top of a strong hive and allow them to draw out, rig on top of a strong NUC and get them to draw out, or put a swarm on them (either true swarm or shook swarm). 

I've seen many diff ways of setting it up. In my operation I tend to stick to full sized frames in NUC hives, but that's just me and things change.. I'll probably end up getting my bees to do some work on half frames this year for next.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

drlonzo said:


> I've seen many diff ways of setting it up. In my operation I tend to stick to full sized frames in NUC hives, but that's just me and things change..


If you're going to raise a few queens for the first time, why not use full sized frames, in regular nucs? Makes more sense when just starting out. You can raise a round or two of queens, and the last queen remains in the nuc for winter. 

But if you must....

Yes you can rig the frames in a 10 frame box and place on strong colony. And, yes the bees will draw the foundation and fill it with nectar and pollen. Trouble is you want brood in some of those combs so you can start the mating nucs. The queen hesitates to lay in those little combs...even if they're placed in the center of the broodnest. A few years ago when I lost most of my mating nucs in the winter, I placed drawn mini-combs on a strong wintered standard nuc with the queen confined to that box with a queen excluder. The rest of the nuc with brood and bees went above the excluder. The queen filled her combs with brood. 

You have no comb in mini-frames. So, you could cut up brood combs on your table saw, fit them into mini-frames, and use those.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Michael - I need clarification. When you say that you lost most of your mating nuc's was it because you set it up the way you're talking about below, or is that what you do to get them drawn with brood in them?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

No. I lost them in the Fall/Winter. We had a severe drought. I don't treat the mating nucs. Because of the drought and lack of flow, the bees raised very little brood in August/September. What little brood there was became damaged by varroa mites and the little colonies failed in the winter. I think there were 5 left alive in the spring, out of 500+. The populations seemed okay in September when they were fed, but cluster must have been predominantly old bees and what young bees there were, were mite damaged.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Now my lack of knowledge comes right to the fore! I don't really know.
Mann lake is offering a divided nuc set up..styrofoam I think..on sale today. It appears to be half width frames but to be honest I just assumed they were as deep as a deep frame. Are they or not? 



drlonzo said:


> Janne - When you say mini mating nucs, are you speaking of the ones with the little tiny combs that are like 3 inches tall in styrofoam boxes, or are you speaking of a standard Lang frame that is cut in two in a cavity sized for it?
> 
> If it is the latter of the two, the most simple way to get them drawn out is either to rig them on the top of a strong hive and allow them to draw out, rig on top of a strong NUC and get them to draw out, or put a swarm on them (either true swarm or shook swarm).
> 
> I've seen many diff ways of setting it up. In my operation I tend to stick to full sized frames in NUC hives, but that's just me and things change.. I'll probably end up getting my bees to do some work on half frames this year for next.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Janne - If you're speaking of the one listed on page 61 Item# IN150 http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/category/page61.html

That unit holds half width frames but they are not deep frames, they are medium frames. They sell a "grow box" below that item that holds 10 frames and they sell the frames as well too. If you look at the grow box they have shown it shows a medium depth box at 6 5/8" tall.


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## Rube63 (Jun 28, 2010)

Do like Michael Palmer says and use 5 frame nucs. Those small boxes are just a mess. The only thing they are any good for are queen banks and not real good for that. Hive beetles like them and other bees think they are feeders.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

WBVC said:


> Now my lack of knowledge comes right to the fore! I don't really know.
> Mann lake is offering a divided nuc set up..styrofoam I think..on sale today. It appears to be half width frames but to be honest I just assumed they were as deep as a deep frame. Are they or not?


If you dig thru the catalog, they also sell another 'growing box', to load up with frames from the styro nucs and put them on top of a colony to get built out.

But, I would ask, how many queens do you plan to make ? I looked at the photos of mini nucs, and lots of variations, including videos on youtube etc. It all looked cute, and I can see why it's effective at reducing the resources needed for high volumes of queens. I was 'sold', right up until I really took at how much work, and how much 'special' stuff I'd have to deal with. For doing just small numbers, it's not worth the hassle / expense to set up for mini nucs was my conclusion.

My approach is going to be a little different. When I do a round of queens this spring, once the cells are cooking, I'll pick one or two of my weaker hives, and just divvy up the frames into my nuc boxes, cells can go into those. Then once we have some mated queens, and they are laying up brood frames, it's not hard to recover my full size colonies. One double deep will donate drawn frames to half a dozen nucs. 6 weeks later I expect the ones with mated queens to be building nicely, have at least a frame of capped brood. So, the best looking nuc goes into a 10 frame box, then walk down the line and harvest 5 more frames of capped brood to go into that box. Voila, I now have a strong colony again, and I've still got nucs on the go. I'd like them to draw more frames over the summer.

If I was doing queens one round after another, to sell the queens, I'd probably look at it differently, but I'm not. The queens I raise are just for increasing my counts, and probably requeen some of the existing colonies. Setting up minis means a lot of extra work, and specialized equipment, that I dont really need, that doesn't fit with the rest of my boxes. By sticking to standard deep frames, I can move brood frames between the nucs and the full size colonies as needed, either to spike the population of the big one, or to control population in the nucs. It's just easier this way. Maybe a little less efficient in terms of the number of bees used for mating a queen, but, no special stuff to buy, and no time invested into preparing a bunch of special stuff that'll only get used for a few weeks.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

That is the product.



drlonzo said:


> Janne - If you're speaking of the one listed on page 61 Item# IN150 http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/category/page61.html
> 
> That unit holds half width frames but they are not deep frames, they are medium frames. They sell a "grow box" below that item that holds 10 frames and they sell the frames as well too. If you look at the grow box they have shown it shows a medium depth box at 6 5/8" tall.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Rube63 said:


> Do like Michael Palmer says and use 5 frame nucs. Those small boxes are just a mess. The only thing they are any good for are queen banks and not real good for that. Hive beetles like them and other bees think they are feeders.


Bigger is always better for quality, though with that comes greater costs. I use 5 frame nucs too: the frames are interchangeable with my normal deeps, they are essentially are nucs that I can sell as-is, and it gives the queens more laying room (and more attendants) before harvest, so verifying quality is easier. Downside is that it consumes more resources (frames of bees and brood) to set up, it costs more per unit, and that it takes slightly longer to find the queen than with the mini mating nucs.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

This summer I just hope to learn how to raise Queens. It would be nice to get enough to have on hand to replace duds or those that seem to vanish followed by a mating failure. Also I have lost 3 hives already and a few more are weak so it would be nice to replace those plus a few more for back up. 
I think we have decided that we can't comfortably manage over 50 hives. If lucky we would come into spring with around 30 hives.
I like the idea of trying to create stock from our strongest and most productive hives and see where it takes us.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Janne - Love the idea about creating stock from your strongest. Just remember that at some point you will want to evaluate new stock to keep your blood lines healthy in the bees. Genetics is important even in a smaller operation.


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## Buckybee (Jan 24, 2011)

The Mann Lake "grow boxes" don't match up with a 5-frame nuc, so I started building a 13 frame version that matches up just fine. I just started using a a few of the mini nucs(6-frame)this past summer and got along fine with them considering I had to start with all foundation. I kept feeders on a few grow boxes all summer and have accumulated quite a few pulled frames that I have put in the freezer for use this year. I have several that I am attempting to overwinter.This year will will determine whether I continue using them for mating and banking.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Buckybee said:


> View attachment 15303
> View attachment 15304
> The Mann Lake "grow boxes" don't match up with a 5-frame nuc, so I started building a 13 frame version that matches up just fine. I just started using a a few of the mini nucs(6-frame)this past summer and got along fine with them considering I had to start with all foundation. I kept feeders on a few grow boxes all summer and have accumulated quite a few pulled frames that I have put in the freezer for use this year. I have several that I am attempting to overwinter.This year will will determine whether I continue using them for mating and banking.


Buckybee - What is your outside measurement (short side) on that box?


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Buckybee - I was thinking of the same idea, and using a devider board in the middle so I could run it as a dual queen castle. Once the queens are mating and laying well, move one queen out and let the other run the hive as a nuc. Please make sure you let us know how that is working.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I replied above because I don't think it's worth spending the resources on mini-frame mating nucs if you're only raising a few queens. That said, I use 4-way minis. Each standard deep box is divided in half with a divider....side to side. Then each half is divided in half with a movable division board feeder. So each half has 2 mini-nucs with 4 frames and a feeder between them. The divider can be moved so each side can be united into one nuc with 8 frames and a feeder....this is the configuration after queen rearing is finished for the season. For wintering, and to give them extra room for spring expansion, I place a 10 mini-frame super on each half. 

I started out in my queen rearing by using my regular double nuc boxes with 4 deep frames on each side of the divider. Once I was raising hundreds of queens, I slowly switched to mini-frame nucs. Now that I raise more than a thousand queens a year, I can't imagine using standard deep frames. 












Note of interest...when I was in the UK in 2013, I had the opportunity to see Brother Adam's old mating station at Dartmoor, and some of his 4-way mating nucs.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Michael - When you first started using the mini frames, what method got them drawn the quickest with brood in them to start the mating nuc's?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Another style of 4-way mini-nuc used in England that I was shown by the breeder.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I am not sure if it is okay to jump in here, but I have decided to just continue building the double nucs that I already use for my mating nucs because I can use the nuc after it is done being utilized as a mating nuc and I don't need an extra piece of equipment to build in the process, I will be building 100 of them next month and the supers to go with them. I thought hard about using mini nucs but me and my better half decided it's not really needed right now because we aren't selling queens, just making our own. when the last batch are ready, they will be left in the nuc to continue building up for next years increase or winter insurance like we already do with the nucs now. I thought that I would need a lot more resources to use the double nucs but I will just add a frame feeder and have 2 deep frames for the bees


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

drlonzo said:


> Michael - When you first started using the mini frames, what method got them drawn the quickest with brood in them to start the mating nuc's?


Starting out can be difficult and frustrating. The queens don't like to lay in mini-frames. Placing mini-frames of foundation on production hives works poorly. The queen ignores any drawn out and the bees place nectar and pollen in the comb....no brood. Cutting up brood comb to fit the mini-frames, and pinning in the frames helps, but still not great. But that's how I started. Now I winter the mini-frame nucs and have all the brood and bees on minis that I need. 

The best way to harvest brood and bees on minis would be to confine the queen on mini-combs by excluder. I did this with 4 over 4 wintered nucs. The configuration was bottom box with 8 empty mini-combs and queen, excluder, mini-combs of bees and brood from bottom box placed in 4 frame nuc super and elevated above excluder, and the top nuc super back on top. Queen has no choice but to lay in the mini-combs. 21 days later...or so...the mini-combs were full of brood and ready to be used for your mating nucs.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Double Post. Stupid computer.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Starting out can be difficult and frustrating. The queens don't like to lay in mini-frames. Placing mini-frames of foundation on production hives works poorly. The queen ignores any drawn out and the bees place nectar and pollen in the comb....no brood. Cutting up brood comb to fit the mini-frames, and pinning in the frames helps, but still not great. But that's how I started. Now I winter the mini-frame nucs and have all the brood and bees on minis that I need.
> 
> The best way to harvest brood and bees on minis would be to confine the queen on mini-combs by excluder. I did this with 4 over 4 wintered nucs. The configuration was bottom box with 8 empty mini-combs and queen, excluder, mini-combs of bees and brood from bottom box placed in 4 frame nuc super and elevated above excluder, and the top nuc super back on top. Queen has no choice but to lay in the mini-combs. 21 days later...or so...the mini-combs were full of brood and ready to be used for your mating nucs.


Michael - Thanks a million! I kinda had the idea to use NUC's to get them pulled out, The configuration was what I was really wondering about. Give the queen NO choice and keep her confined to that area. I now know exactly what I have to do this spring.  Don't know that i'll actually use them in mating nuc's this year, but they will be ready for 2016 when I know i will need them.


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

What about starting a new queen in the mating nuc?


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## Buckybee (Jan 24, 2011)

drlonzo...outside measurement of the grow boxes are 10" and yes, you have about 3/16" hanging over on each side of a standard 5-frame nuc box, but it works just fine. I have not had the laying problems that Mr Palmer has stated, but I have not had near the experience with them as he has. As I use the queens...I start stacking the queenless mini's over one that is queenright until the next round of cells are ready...sometimes 3 or 4 high. I then tear the stack down and split up the resources as needed. I only use the mini nucs when I run out of 5 and 10 frame equipment. Its a good feeling to have a couple dozen spare queens handy when needed, but I'm sure I will have my share of hiccups this year tho as I will be doing on a larger scale.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

Unless your going to sell queens it is much easier to use standard size equipment. A three frame medium nuc works, and a two frame deep nuc works. 

But, something that is even easier is not to use a mating nuc at all. Making up the mating nucs is probably the most over looked hardest part of raising queens. Most people fret about the grafting. Grafting is probably the easiest part, making a good starter hive and the mating nucs can be frustrating and takes a bunch of bee resources. If you don't use a mating nuc you can save yourself some trouble. Just put the queen cell where you want a new queen. Simple as that. If your making increase nucs make up your nucs and put a queen cell in each one, if you are requeening hives take out the old queen and put in a queen cell. Use some of the old queens to make up nucs to keep in reserve because you won't get a 100% take using queen cells. But, you won't get 100% take by using mate queens either. 

Now if you want to use the mini nucs I have had some success by putting a couple cups of bees in the mini nucs with a queen cell, filling the feeder and closing it up for a couple days. It works better if you can wait until after your main flow has started this will cut down on robbing. The problem with the minis is keeping the going more than a couple rounds of queens. SHB, and robbing become more of a problem as the season wears on. And if your not planning on running the minis for several rounds of queens it just seems like a lot of extra work. That's been my experience any way YMMV. I sell around 30-40 mated queens a year so very small scale. My favorite mating nuc is a two frame deep in a divide box or a regular 5 frame box. I can run 2-3 rounds of queens through the nuc and then just leave the last queen in the nuc to build it up and either keep the nuc or sell it. But, I almost never use a mated queen for my own personal use, I always use queen cells for my increases or requeening needs. Good luck with your queen rearing it is a lot of fun and rewarding.


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## Ret Sgt. Robert Yates (Dec 5, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> No. I lost them in the Fall/Winter. We had a severe drought. I don't treat the mating nucs. Because of the drought and lack of flow, the bees raised very little brood in August/September. What little brood there was became damaged by varroa mites and the little colonies failed in the winter. I think there were 5 left alive in the spring, out of 500+. The populations seemed okay in September when they were fed, but cluster must have been predominantly old bees and what young bees there were, were mite damaged.


I think you have it with your last sentence Brother Here is a reference to back it up . This is Quoted from the "Pink Pages" Of Master Beekeeper George Imirie (1933-2007) with rights to use the information from the (TBA).

_*"WHAT CAUSES BEE DEATH DURING THE WINTER?*_ - If you say "a harsh cold
winter", you will be wrong 95% of the time! The principal causes of winter death are:tracheal mite infestation, other diseases, queen death, weak colony, and starvation particularly in February and March. Although in severe situations, a colony might die of tracheal mite infestation during the summer or fall, such is not the case because the queen's egg laying is replacing infected bees.. This is not so in the winter months as the queen curtails egg laying in late November and commences again in January. During this time, bees that have not been adequately treated for tracheal mite infection become sicker and sicker as the tracheal mites are clogging up the bees air passages ending in strangling to death. Death by tracheal mite usually occurs in January and the hive has plenty of honey but the bees are gone and dead. Most other diseases do not in themselves kill a colony, but make it so weak or sick, that it finally dies from secondary effects. One should not expect a weak population of bees to survive a winter because there just aren't enough bees to
form a cluster than can maintain warmth. Starvation usually results by the use of large amounts of stored honey to feed the new larva from the late winter queen laying. There is no designed age for a queen to die (or you also), but if "her number is up" in November or December, the bees cannot raise a new queen so the colony perishes. Not with the purpose of offending you, but hoping that it helps you, I want to point out that the great majority of winter death is the FAULT OF THE BEEKEEPER in that he did not properly treat for a disease, or he let a weak colony enter the winter rather than combining it with another colony, or he did provide enough winter stores for the bees, or finally, no queen that is almost 2 years old should be expected to make it through the winter."

I hope this explains what happen with your NUC'S 

Best Regards


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Well, no Sgt. it doesn't. Not Tracheal mites. It was as I explained. A poor flow causing reduced brood rearing, and what few mites there were in the little colonies, were more than enough to damage the young bees that should have been the winter cluster. 

Ahh, George Imrie. I miss the old fellow. Used to see him at bee meetings. I remember once he said to me, "I don't agree with what you're saying but I like the way you jump in with both feet".


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## Ret Sgt. Robert Yates (Dec 5, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Well, no Sgt. it doesn't. Not Tracheal mites. It was as I explained. A poor flow causing reduced brood rearing, and what few mites there were in the little colonies, were more than enough to damage the young bees that should have been the winter cluster.
> 
> Ahh, George Imrie. I miss the old fellow. Used to see him at bee meetings. I remember once he said to me, "I don't agree with what you're saying but I like the way you jump in with both feet".


All Is Good Mr. Palmer,

I read it as the Mites is what had caused the damage to the older bees and younger and that is what had caused the failure during the winter . Thank you for taking it in stride and not as an insult for me posting the information. I have been actually studying Mr. Imrie's work this past few weeks . Do You have a site set up or a blog about your Queen Rearing Mr. Palmer that you would not mind Sharing ?

Best Regards


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Ret said:


> All Is Good Mr. Palmer,
> 
> I read it as the Mites is what had caused the damage to the older bees and younger and that is what had caused the failure during the winter . Thank you for taking it in stride and not as an insult for me posting the information. I have been actually studying Mr. Imrie's work this past few weeks . Do You have a site set up or a blog about your Queen Rearing Mr. Palmer that you would not mind Sharing ?
> 
> Best Regards


Sgt. Yates - Here's a link to a thread here on Beesource that M. Palmer started that explains in very good detail his methods. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?244271-My-Cell-Building-Methods
Michael Palmer also has a Youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRc7LI3dPhX65DbfXSDyFGQ
Here's a link to National Honey Show's youtube channel where you'll find some great speaches M. Palmer did. https://www.youtube.com/user/nationalhoneyshow/videos
Lots of great information from both video's and the thread..


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Ret said:


> All Is Good Mr. Palmer,
> 
> I read it as the Mites is what had caused the damage to the older bees and younger and that is what had caused the failure during the winter . Thank you for taking it in stride and not as an insult for me posting the information. I have been actually studying Mr. Imrie's work this past few weeks . Do You have a site set up or a blog about your Queen Rearing Mr. Palmer that you would not mind Sharing ?
> 
> Best Regards


I would never take such as an insult. 

I don't have a web site or blog. There are youtubes on cell building and queen rearing, if you view my channel.


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Mr. Palmer, you stated that it is hard to get a queen to lay in new mini frames. What about placing a new queen in, to get her to lay in newly drawn frames?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I was saying it is difficult to get her to lay in new combs in a full sized hive, by putting the mini-frames of foundation or comb in or above the broodnest. She tends to ignore them and the bees put nectar and pollen in the comb. Same in nucs when combs are in or above the broodnest. If you confine the queen on the mini-combs, then she will lay in them. So, yes. If you put the queen and bees on drawn mini-combs, they will raise brood in them.


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## Ret Sgt. Robert Yates (Dec 5, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> I would never take such as an insult.
> 
> I don't have a web site or blog. There are youtubes on cell building and queen rearing, if you view my channel.


Mr. Palmer, I will look up your Channel on u-tube .

Thank you for letting me know about it .

Best Regards Sir,


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