# I have a ? For commercial beekeepers



## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

the best way is to grow slowly just so you know what you are getting into. I dont know how many hives you are running right now but there is a huge differance in running 500 vs. 50 not just the equipment but the thinking that you have to run that many. 

Also with the slower growing you can find the right locations that you need for 500 you will probably need at least 12 yards and that's if you are never going to move them! That is something a lot of people stating in beekeeping don't realize that it is location location location. 
that applies if you are going for honey but pretty much the same thinking on pollination then you need to find the good farms and the farmers that actually pay lol.

But i guess to answer your question if you insist on taking the big jump then i would check out a farm credit lender they will work the best with you. 

Oh the best thing to do of course is work for a commercial beekeeper for a year or two they have made all the mistakes that you will make in the first two years save a lot of time and money.

regards Nick


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The short answer is thru alot of sacrifice. For myself, yes, I bought a cpl of smallish operations (200 cols each) w/ Farm Service Agency Loans. Then, slowly built up my numbers over the years. My operation is on the small side of commercial beekeeping. But it is what this one person, mostly working solo, can handle.

What is your background like? Did you grow up on a farm? In the city? Education? Work experience? Any Business Knowledge?(that's one part of my Associates Degree that could have been better instructed.).

Whatever happens, if you really want to do it, don't be too discouraged and don't give up. Take care of your family. The bees don't need us to taker care of them. That's a nice ideal, but a poor reason to be in business. 

Good luck.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Most bankers hate loans for bee operations simply because there are no titles for bees and equipment and there is no telling where they might be when bank examiners start asking questions plus you need an additional note for operating capital. We were fortunate enough to have a good relationship with a bank that knew us and took interest in our operation. Your best bet is if you are able to assign some good collateral and have done enough research to put together a business plan that appears workable. Just don't underestimate how much you will have invested before you get any return. Most commercial operations started small many of them as sideline operations. Many also worked for an operation as a trusted "right hand man" for many years and were helped into ownership by a retiring owner I can't think of many that just jumped in cold turkey via a large ag loan. A smaller turnkey operation with some sort of income history would also be an option.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've been paying it out of my pocket over the last 10 years as I've grown from 2 - 4 hives to 150 - 250 hives.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

One swarm to commercial. 

There are many sides to this equation.

First you must love bees more than money. The life is great the pay is ?ionable. 

When I had one hive I couldn't figure out how some one could TEND 5.
When I had 25 I could hardly imagine *carring* for 100.
When you SPEND ENOUGH TIME with 250 you can start to imagine 500


ETC.


I don't know anyone who jumped in with 500 with no experience and succeeded. 

If you were to survey the best bee operations in the US I'm sure most grew slowly. Many through multiple generations or did worked as a right hand man for MANY years before walking into the bank.


If you haven't notice lately, bees die, fuels expensive, regs are increasing, etc.

The best years we had is when we grew as money allowed. Being indebted to the bank or someone else will kill you. If you want to be indebted to anyone let it be to someone who has mentored you. Find some beekeepers who you can work with. Someone who will move bees for you if your kids cuts his foot off. Someone who you will do the same for without looking for big payment in return for the favor.

If your "girl" is supportive of the idea you have half the battle won already. Consider yourself blessed. Doing bees is not 9 to 5. It can be more like 5 till 9 the next morning and thats just getting started.


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## Taylors_Bees (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks I like some one who can give it to me straight. I do love beekeeping, i love my bees. I was just raised that if you love what you do for a job, you wake up every morning ready to go to work and then it wont be work it will be doing something you love. thank jon


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Going from a hobbiest to a commercial operation not only includes capital and operating expenses. Going to a bank, you will need a business plan, cash flow projections, expense and income projections and a budget.
I would also recommend, when you plan your expense/income projections, that you deduct 25% from your income and add 25% to your expenses.

My last bit of advice would also be, a change in attitude or perception where the bees are concerned. A hobbiest will try to save a hive and spare no expense in trying to do so...please forgive me for this generalizaton...a commercial beekeeper pencils out everything. Every decision is made by costing out the expenses and potential income in order to aim for a profit. A commercial producer will plan ahead, both in hive health and in financial outcomes. A commercial producer will know that being in the ag industry, we are at the mercy of the weather and the commodity prices. Both can be unfavorable at times and both can be unfavorable at the same time.

Along the lines of a change in perception of bees and beekeeping is, looking at bees differently. Yes they are cool, neat, and amazing creatures, but as a commercial producer the midset has to change from a personalized perception of bees to a livestock perception of bees

There is a saying in the beef industry..."grass in front of the cow, bull behind...the rest falls into place..." The idea is to get the cows to work for you...same with the bees...get them to do the jobs for you.
Another saying in the beef industry is..."if you are going to have livestock, you are going to have dead stock...get use to it". The same is true for bees. No matter what you try and do, some bees or hives are just plain going to die. Once you think you have all the bases covered, they will just find a new way to die. The point is, know where to draw the line financially when it comes to save a sick or dieing hive


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I dont know if a bank will lend you the money needed to start a 500 hive operation fresh without any collateral. They dont take a live hive for any value, but would perhaps the equipment at a depreciated value.

I started from scratch, and built the operation from 4 hives to 700 in ten or twelve years. I also have a farm to back my investment. Cattle and grain. I borrowed my honey line using cattle as collateral. 

I might be wrong, as honeyshack mentioned, you need a solid business plan. And you should expect to have to sign a personal guarantee, meaning your house will have to be signed away.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

A long, long time ago I wanted to raise sheep. My grand plan was to have an integrated, diversified farm with row crops and pasture and livestock. I wanted to farm like my grandfather and rotate crops, utilize manure for it's fertilizer value, etc. The plan also called for honeybees.

I started out small on a corner of our family farm, financing my operation with odd jobs and seasonal work. Almost everything I bought was used and most of it needed repair. I kept begging those bankers to lend me some big money so I could make it big. On paper, I could become a millionaire.

They never did loan me any money, and in retrospect, I'm glad they didn't. Part of my problem was barking up the wrong tree. Bankers are not into risky or unknown ventures. They want collateral they can sell if you don't make it. They want plans that work and have worked. They want to look at conventional inputs with expected results. Convincing them that I could sell 50 barrels of honey was hard when most of these bankers only bought one squeeze bear a year. 

They were very leery of anything that wasn't mainstream. Unfortunately, I was in corn and hog country. And if I wanted to borrow a ton of money to construct a hog confinement unit, they would be asking how much I needed.

My advice is to go slow and grow your way into 500 hives. You'll get an education along the way and 100 hives doesn't just take twice as much work as 50. It's a whole different mindset.

So don't be so impatient. You might discover along the way that 50 hives is just what suits your personality and longer-term plans.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Merlyn Votaw (Jun 23, 2008)

After reading the answers you gave to Jon I will add another question to his. First off all of the answers sounded like good advice. My question is how do I break into pollination contracts? We don't have many crops around here that benefit from bees like other places.We have mostly wheat soy beans and milo.I have tried to sell the pollination idea to several farmers around here but I am not the salseman to convince him he needed them .They have been farming for years without them so why change.Do I need to take a salesman class or what?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You need to learn about which crops benefit from pollination by honeybees and concentrate on those. Otherwise, do something different. Honey production. Pollination isn't exactly falling into a pile of money or finding a pot o' gold at the end of the rainbow.


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## Taylors_Bees (Jan 17, 2011)

Ok what makes the best money, see I was going to pollonate tell march or april then make nucs that was my plan. thats logical right? im not looking to get rich I want to pay house bills and have play money thats it nothing fancy no gold bling bling


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

I had a 106 year old lady told me to pay as you go and go damm slow. Words of wisdom.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

What's wrong with getting rich? And lots of bling bling

Just note: the wife's definition of bling is new windows for 9 grand.

Enjoy growing your business.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

i agree with all the advice...grow it slow on your own..NO LOANS!!!! There is used equipment out there,BUY IT....., hives can be split, SPLIT THEM..increases in numbers = increase in working capital. Its a slow process but I would not borrow money on this venture.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I went from 12 hives to 300 ending up debt free in seven years. I used every spare dime out of my full time job to help. I found an ag lender who would work with me. I got my crop extracted by a commercial guy by trading work. Doesn't sound like much time was left for fun does it? Well, thats what my ex wife thought as well. Decide what you want to do. Young men can do, and should do a tremendous amount of work. But leave some room for a life.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

A lot of the commercial guys running 500 hives still work an 8 hour job somewhere else. 
That might be something to think about. sideline, not full time.
I'm wondering at what point they where able to quit their full time job, 1000 hives 2000? I'm sure it will be different from one operation to the next.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The easy way to make a small fortune in the bee bussiness is to start with a large one. A KQ6AR states, a steady scorce of income is very helpfull. Plan for the worse. Start with enough money saved to support yourself and the bissiness for 4 years. That way when you hit CCD for 2 years, and then 2 years of failed honey crops, you will still be OK. So did you marrry a girl that can support you?(he he he)

Roland
As SQKCRK says to me - "still single and unfamous? " no fame and fortune here.....


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Horace Bell nearly went bankrupt starting out in debt. Bees are pretty fragile...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I have found that if I were in the Bee Biz to make money, I shouldn't. The more I learn about being in Business I find out that there is no reason I should be. I am doing almost nothing in a business like manner. And yet somehow things are still running.

During the last class of "Small Business 101" it was stated that one aught to have monetary reserves that would pay at least the next 3 months bills. I get so depressed when I hear things like that. Paying bills as the money comes in and putting off spending if I don't think the sales will support what will come up soon.

My advice? If you are going to go into business, learn something about business. Get a Business Degree. If you are going into Beekeeping to "save the bees"? Bad idea. If you are going into Beekeeping as a livelyhood, don't quit your day job and make sure your wife has a well paying job. A number of my beekeeping friends have wives that work in the Health Care industry. Others have wives that work all aspects of beekeeping and the business alongside them. I envy them for sure.

My last advice is: Go for it. You'll figure out what works for you and what doesn't and you will get where you want to go or you will change your focus. Whatever you do, be satisfied w/ your life.

Best wishes.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Merlyn Votaw said:


> My question is how do I break into pollination contracts? Do I need to take a salesman class or what?


Well, a class wouldn't hurt 

Many years ago I tried this pollination contract angle when I was expanding thinking, "Everybody knows the benefits of pollination. Everyone will want my bees to pollinate their crops." 

Nope. And nope.

And my bees were not strong enough in the early spring to pollinate the few local crops that really needed it. I wasn't ready to start migrating and I still don't like moving hives.

Selling is an art. When I stopped in to visit with farmers about potential pollination options, all they saw was me looking for money. And they could not see any benefit even though I had some numbers put together to show that $____ per hive would yield $____ back to them with # of additional bushels times $ per bushel.

And some guys just don't want bees on their farm, and some guys don't want YOU on their farm. And some guys are doing just fine so don't insinuate they need YOUR help.

So I let it go. Then a small-time watermelon grower south of me called (he had found my name on a jar of honey given to him by his cousin) and asked about moving bees into the fields for pollination.

I didn't want to price myself out of the market, I needed new yards, and I hate moving hives. So I countered with, "If I bring my bees down, can I leave them year-round and can you give me 24/7 access? If so, I'll do it for free."

There was a long pause on his end of the phone before he said, "Okay."

The going rate was, and still is, $40 per hive and at that price, it wasn't worth it to me to move hives in and move hives out. I would have to move them from somewhere else and it was more than worth it to me to have a spot to leave them.

Turns out this area has more than just melons and is an excellent honey producing area.

I still work with this grower and every year he opens a new field and needs more hives.

I end up with more yards without needing to "sell" my services. And I end up with more honey, which is really what I want.

What really made this system work is a personal relationship with the grower, trust that grows over time, and the realization that there is more than money at stake.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Grant said:


> Then a small-time watermelon grower south of me called (he had found my name on a jar of honey given to him by his cousin) and asked about moving bees into the fields for pollination...
> 
> ...I end up with more yards without needing to "sell" my services. And I end up with more honey, which is really what I want...


Agreed. I do the same thing out here with some crops. The other guy gets better production and i get some good honey and an out yard to provide me with some extra income...and expense. 
Grant's post is a really good example of knowing our markets, and knowing what we want our bees to do. Again back to a solid business plan. 
A few business courses would be a good idea. Simple accounting can go a long ways to keep your business afloat.

[


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

You need a lot of education to run bees. You need to know honey plants. When they yield, how much they yield, What weather conditions do they need? From there you can make an assesment of a bee yard. Location, location,location. This education for diffrent areas all takes time to learn. Go slow or get a job working with an older beek.
I started slow and had a good day job. I used the bees as a tax write off, so the govt. helped me grow.I bought out other beeks to get locations and used equip. 
When I sold out,I sold to a young beek that had been in the buss for 10 years and was a good operator. I knew he would not go broke. I gave him the bees on a hand shake in the spring after pollination and didn't take the first payment until after pollination the next year. Today his entire operation of 1800 hives is within 40 miles of his home. His almond orchard is 10 miles from home and his sage locations that could produce 200 lb per colony are 40 miles and he lives in the middle of a great fall location. As said, Location,location,location!


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I asked a question similar to this a while back. I got some great feed back from everyone. One thing that really made since to me was to grow slow. Grow one year then hold at that number of hives the next. It is hard to make splits and make honey in the same year. Use the money from the honey year to expand the next year. You definatly need a day job until you can get enough bees and equipment built up to do it full time. Some of these guys are second and third generation beeks. So it can take a long time to build up to that level.

If i learned one thing last year it was that location can make all the difference in the world. Even just a few miles in one direction can make a huge difference in honey production. At my home yard I have a very good spring flow from Gallberry, Palmetto, Black gum and wild blueberries. After the first of June it is over. Then I have a long dearth until fall where the flow picks back up with Golden rod and asters. But, only 10-15 miles away there are locations with a lot of Cabbage Palms they will fill in this dearth but, you have to move the bees to get that honey. There are a few places where these plants over lap but, it is very hard to find the perfect yard. JMHO


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I believe others suggested taking classes in business. That is important, but I would suggest some courses in Genetics, Microbiolgy and Ecology(it is NOT what the media calls ecology). It is easier to find some one to chat with about bussiness stratagies, than it is find someone to chat about microbial stratagies. Like SQKCRK spoke about thinking in terms of margins generated, profits ratios, etc, it is also important to think of the genetic, microbial and ecological(the true meaning, how systems interact) reactions to everything that you do in a beehive. How will something you do today effect the situation in a year, both from a bussiness view, and a biological view..

Roland


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Taylors_Bees said:


> Thanks I like some one who can give it to me straight.


Work your butt off sun-up to sun-down. Then work sun-down to sun-up. When all your friends are out having a good time you are working., ALWAYS.

That's how you start to get the money you will need to do what you want. This is not an occupation for a "slacker"

You need a "girl" that will go weeks with out seeing you and put up with it. When your friends families are going on vacation you will be still working your butt off trying to make a profit. 

If you can't afford to loose everything you are sticking into the bees- DON'T do it!


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Vance G said:


> Well, thats what my ex wife thought as well. Decide what you want to do. Young men can do, and should do a tremendous amount of work. But leave some room for a life.


Well said!(Sorry Keith, I had to steal your line)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Jon Taylor, sufficiently discouraged yet? Or encouraged? These are the realities of beekeeping as a livelihood. It's good you asked.

When i started qwe weren't in the thick of all of the changes that the industry has been thru during the last 20 years. I wish I had been more confident at the time and had gone into it bigger.

I often thought, over the years, that I should have taken a loan for 100,000 dollars, rather than just for what it would cost to repay the cost of the two operations that I wanted to buy.

Go big or go home? I can't advise you to do that. But I wonder where I would be if I had.


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## Taylors_Bees (Jan 17, 2011)

No im not discouraged, I plan on running 500 hives. I am giving my self 5years to get there I probly wont stop at 500 i will take a slow aggressive approach. I do still have a lot to learn I have a guy that I will hopfully be working with this year helping to make nucs hes in almonds now thank to all of you for your help


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Then you'll probably be okay. My best to you and I hope, in your spare time, to hear from you now and then. Good luck. It's a good life.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

You need to get into an area where you can split and make honey in the same year. With moveing bees, I could make 150 lb from spring packages. Splitting colonies in cherries just after almonds would not have any affect on the honey production of either split. If you can not split and make good honey production in the same year, you need to look for better locations.


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## Taylors_Bees (Jan 17, 2011)

jjgbee said:


> You need to get into an area where you can split and make honey in the same year. With moveing bees, I could make 150 lb from spring packages. Splitting colonies in cherries just after almonds would not have any affect on the honey production of either split. If you can not split and make good honey production in the same year, you need to look for better locations.


that is what i was planing on doing i just have to fined a good spot:doh: i have acre farm thanks


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

You will need a sure fire market for any honey you produce. I am a member of Souix. That will give you also a proven track record when it comes to borrowing money in the future as you will have production records, also when it comes to selling out one day. I built my operation from one hive of bees to the 1800 today that I have. My outfit has also collapsed three times in the past--mites,CCD--I would have more bees!!. I used the Farm Service Agency to borrow the money. The outfit is paid for now. Thirty nine years is a long time to do one thing. GOOD LUCK AND GOOD BEEKEEPING TK


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Beekeeping can be very profitable. You need to learn how to make it profitable though. Honey is easy to sell. There is a great market for it. Those FSA loans and programs, they are nice if used correctly, but you need the collateral(150% value of the loan). 

The best thing anyone that wants to get into bees for a living can do is work for someone that already does. Do that for a year or two then make the decision if that's for you. Pay close attention to every detail.


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