# Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?



## TheMaineBee

Has anyone had any actual experience with them?
I know that the media will basically prey on people's fears at times so I'm sure that Africanized Bees are overexaggerated in some ways.

I've always had an intense phobia basically regarding these bees 

I adore bees and have always been fascinated by them. They have an extremely important role in our environment which is why I really wish to learn more about Africanized Bees and to understand them more which will hopefully lessen my fear of them.


----------



## dhood

I've never delt with them, but I'm glad you ask. I've always wondered the same thing. I'm sure they are more agressive, but I've seen them get pretty mean here, and we don't have AHB in SC. How bad are they really?:scratch:


----------



## rw3212

*AHB Aggression*

I don't have a lot of experience, but did have some for 2 seasons. Like our more gentle bees their aggression is based on the amount of messing you do. Normally defenders will meet you about 20-30 ft before you get to the hive, if you turn around all is well. The closer you get the more challengers you get, this includes head-banging. Now to check or change supers, this is about all you get. If you want to check brood, or inspect in the brood chamber, you should be ready...all H*** is about to break loose.

After my first time, I learned to wear a full suit with thermals under it. They would follow me to the house 100 yards away, and swarm the windows trying to get in. After about an hour they would give up and go home. It wasn't safe to go out unprotected for many hours. They forget SLOWLY. 

If you leave them be and give them their space all is well. They swarm around 4-6 times a year and produce about 2/3 the honey of the italians. No Mite or SHB problem though.

I had much better luck with them than I have had with the civil bees I have now.

Wanna know more PM me.

BTW: They were sold to me as italians and as a newbee I didn't know!!!


----------



## mgmoore7

My experiences are similar to rw3212. 

I have had a hive come back positive and it was the one I suspected. They defend a much larger area around their hive and when you open it up, they are after you. They would chase me around my house. Other breed never do that. I can go within 4-5 feet with non african hives and work my veggies without any issue. With the Africanized, I had to wear a veil all the time and my wife refused to go into the garden. 

None of this is an issue now as all of my hives were requeened and since they have been gentle.


----------



## Dr.Wax

> They swarm around 4-6 times a year and produce about 2/3 the honey of the italians. BTW: They were sold to me as italians and as a newbee I didn't know!!!


How many AHB do you think got loose into the wild from the swarming? 

I know Georgia is not supposed to be an area with AHB.


----------



## Bud Dingler

I have had seasonal Brazilian beekeepers who work for me and in Brazil its all Africanized. I have visited Brazil also and spoke to many beekeepers there. 

According to them you can't place hives next to each other like we do here in the USA. You don't drive your truck next to the hives. You use mega smoke and care when manipulating. But the amount of manipulation is minimal. They don't buy bees or raise queens as these bees are tough as hell. You put empty equipment out and the bees fill it with swarms. 

When they attack its the stuff from horror movies. Bees in every orifice of 
your body whether the orifice is covered with clothing our not. Run like hell or get in a building or vehicle our you dead if attacked. 

This is the future of far southern USA someday. Slowly as beekeepers leave the profession and the AHB take over it becomes harder and harder to keep an European hive intact genetically. People scoff when I say this but why do you think Mexico and central America and places like Brazil are 100% Africanized? Right now some single digit percent of our industry is using AHB and selling them. This percentage will grow in the near future. At some point it will be almost impossible to get packages and queens from southern areas that are totally free of Africanized genetics. 

The future of northern beekeeping is here now and its the beeks who are raising their own queens and nucs! Mark my words some day they will be selling their bees south in a reversal of what it has been traditionally. As the genetic depository of European Honeybees will be in the northern 1/3 or half of the USA not in south.


----------



## walking bird

I talked with one veteran beek on this forum who told me his Africanized hives would hit his veil so hard they would be squirting venom through the netting. A scary scenario...


----------



## Troy

Yup, all of that.

I picked up swarms in years past and I did not always requeen right away. Sometimes they were quite awful. Just like others said above.

I had one so bad that I could not drive into the yard and get out of my truck to put on my bee suit even though I was 150 feet away. I pulled into the yard one cloudy day and they were stinging the rubber gaskets around my windows trying to get into my truck. Needless to say, I did not open the door. I just drove away and came back another day to deal with them.

Now I either don't keep the swarms, or if I find nice large swarms I put them in a box and requeen them within a week. 

Sometimes you've got to let them set up housekeeping in order to find the queen. Once they've got brood, but before it is capped they are still pretty docile, but once they have capped brood to defend, then they will get very defensive indeed.

Also the part about not putting them in a line is true too. If you put them all together in a line and one is Africanized it is hard to tell which one it is. I came up with a method. Golf balls. I sneak up on them from far away with my suit on. Try it on a nice sunny afternoon when a lot of bees are flying anyway. Start throwing golf balls at the hive. When you hit the Africanized one, the response will be quite obvious. A lot more bees respond to the thunk of the golf ball against the brood box.


----------



## josethayil

i heard that they have used selective breeding to get a gentle strain of african bees in brazil and a lot of bee keepers are using them. Any one know more?


----------



## tecumseh

walking bird writes:
I talked with one veteran beek on this forum who told me his Africanized hives would hit his veil so hard they would be squirting venom through the netting. A scary scenario...

tecumseh:
uhh I think you might need to consider basic bee bioliogy before you would repeated this story telling too often... I would guess such myth making would warm the heart of any newsperson???

if you will notice by name it it called an african HYBRID. hybrid by definition means a combination of two somewhat related species with the permutation of the possible offspring being almost infinite in number. the fabris score reflects this directly. so hybridization varies on a scale and given the current information on genetics even very pure european honeybees would contain aspect of pure african (it appears both are derived from the same progenator). Prior to the onset (or understanding) of modern day genetics and breeding even the european honeybee had a reputation of being extremely hostile.

my original mentors bees were apis mellifera mellifera (the german black bee) who defensive characteristics were quite similar to the african hybrids.

I guess based on what 3212 wrote... some folks contention that african bloodlines do not exist in Georgia can also be reduced to the level of myth.


----------



## Michael Palmer

TheMaineBee said:


> I'm sure that Africanized Bees are overexaggerated in some ways.


Next time you can talk with your state bee inspector, ask him about the colony we re-queened in Kittery. It was a Buckfast package that came out of Texas. Absolutely ferocious. Tore up the neighborhood, and started a war among neighbors. Overexaggerated? I would say not!


----------



## SlickMick

This is all pretty interesting to me and no doubt to other beeks on this side of the ocean.

It is quite difficult given the docility of the modern bee to imagine just how difficult the AHB must be to deal with. It would certainly be no holiday keeping them in the suburbs and would probably rule many hobby beeks out of the industry.

So is it at all possible to breed the agressive gene (whatever that may be) out of the hybridised version of the honey bee? What work has been done in trying to deal with this problem and to create a more docile hybrid or is it just a too difficult option with their propensity to swarming and becoming feral?

Mick


----------



## Josh Carmack

*Modern research, and cross breeding*

Recent studies have shown that the current strains of the AHB in Brazil and Mexico have become bred with more docile strains of bee that it is becoming manageable with similar methods to the EHB. I have a brother-in-law who is a native Mexican, and personally raised Honeybees commercially before um ahem migrating to the US. His family still raise commercially and all of the hives are AHB, they are manageable, they do produce honey, and require less medication. He also said that on his last visit they were gentler than the ones they had 20 years ago. He remembers when the AHB arrived in his hometown, he said they all received a rude awakening being stung hundreds of time before they learned that they were no longer dealing with a normal hive. They had no way to afford re queening, so continued to raise what they had albeit with more clothing. 

I personally think in the long run everyone will be a little better of in most ways once the AHB has its foothold in the southern US and the local authorities realize resistance is futile. Lots of current pest and diseases will not be a problem as they are now. 

I honestly believe this is the lords way of dealing with the world. I'll explain more if someone would like. We may not understand why things are done, but understanding is not key trusting is. Everyone knows it is a hardier stronger strain and proliferates much more quickly. Now, think, the EHB colonies are dropping like flies, but the AHB is not, and it is spreading to areas that CCD is taking out EHB. Anyone think this is simple coincidence that both are happening at the same time?

I do not look forward to the day when my hives become Arficanized, but I do look forward to the day that much less management is key to keeping a hive alive.

My mother-in-law allowed a keeper to place 5 hives on her orange grove. The keeper abandoned them and they became africanized. They stayed that way for a couple of years before the extension office located the source of the swarms that were emanating from them. No one knew the difference until the extension agent notified them they had AHB on the grove. My in law explained they were placed there by so and so and they were not hers. The extension office located and took appropriate action with the keeper and the hives were euthanized. the hive were 100 feet from the road, and about 500 from the first row of trees. While they did notice they would peg the windows of a vehicle when driving by slowly, no one noticed them being AHB until they were told so by the extension agent. I will admit no one attempted to approach them before knowing due to fear of any bee AHB or not.

I personally believe the ones who need adapting is us, and not them. While I do not anticipate the extra measures needed to keep them, I really think all the work and money the state and us governments are putting into fighting them is futile. Stop fighting, and learn to adapt and spend that money researching making them more adaptable and safer for the neighborhood keeper.

-end rant


----------



## umbriel971

*AHB: Are they really that bad?*

Bear in mind that in places like Ghana, farmers use tripwired AHB hives to guard and drive off elephants that would raid their crops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HwC...hant&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f&feature=player_embedded

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/video/2007/oct/08/elephant.bee

The bees are not "bad" they are just defensive. They got that way for a reason.

In my opinion keeping a strain of bees the sound of which drives off in fright the worlds largest mammal might not be a good call.

Cheers

Matt


----------



## Gene Weitzel

There are basically three kinds of AHB hives:

1. Hives with a queen of European matriline mated primarily with AHB drones.

2. Hives with a queen of African matriline mated primarily with EHB drones.

3. Hives with a queen of African matriline mated primarily with AHB drones.

Hives of the third type are uber defensive and very difficult to manage. The other two types are typically less defensive but can still be a challenge. Of the three, type one is the "lesser of three evils" in that they will only kick out EHB drones, they are also much easier to re-queen. Based on recent studies done at TAM, in my area of Texas hives with AHB matrilines (ones that would kick out AHB drones) still represent less than 1/3 of the feral hive population. These studies were conducted in wilderness areas where there was very little influence from managed hives. A hot hive does not necessarily mean that it is Africanized, particularly in the case of other hybrid bees like Buckfast as the F2 generation queens of these type bees tend to become very aggressive. In short, the answer to the question as to whether AHB are really that bad is: It depends on the degree of Africanization. Personally, I would not waste much time trying to salvage type 2 or 3 hives because of the drone issue. Type one hives however, are prime candidates for re-queening. The caveat to all of this is that you need DNA analysis to know which is which.


----------



## rw3212

Dr.Wax said:


> How many AHB do you think got loose into the wild from the swarming?
> 
> I know Georgia is not supposed to be an area with AHB.


You are correct, that was in the heart of AHB country Hidalgo County Texas. The original AHB swarm found in the USA was 3 miles from where I lived at that time, The only non-AHB's there are in the managed hives. Let one supersede and it WILL be AHB positive.

This was all a few years ago also. I don't know the situation there now, but can't imagine it has improved as, 
for-all-practical-purposes the ferel bees are at least hybreds.


----------



## Will

*Buckfast=hybridized african*

Buckfast originally had african blood. Which makes them africanized. Africanized bees have been here at least as long as the italians. Who really knows what kind of bees we keep?? Isn't it all just semantics?? Which begs the question. Do we really have separate races of bees?? And if so, can those races breed true?? That is, is there a mechanism within each race that provides some mating advantage to breed true??


----------



## Ross

> This is the future of far southern USA someday. Slowly as beekeepers leave the profession and the AHB take over it becomes harder and harder to keep an European hive intact genetically. People scoff when I say this but why do you think Mexico and central America and places like Brazil are 100% Africanized? Right now some single digit percent of our industry is using AHB and selling them. This percentage will grow in the near future. At some point it will be almost impossible to get packages and queens from southern areas that are totally free of Africanized genetics.
> 
> The future of northern beekeeping is here now and its the beeks who are raising their own queens and nucs! Mark my words some day they will be selling their bees south in a reversal of what it has been traditionally. As the genetic depository of European Honeybees will be in the northern 1/3 or half of the USA not in south.


more bs bashing


----------



## Daddy's Girl

On another forum, we had a beek from an African nation describe the bees that he works with. He describes a bee that is certainly hotter and more temperamental than we are used to here in the US, but not one that is impossible to manage. He noted that AHB won't put up with the amount of fiddling that we do with EHB, and that there are days that he goes to the hive and leaves again because they will have none of it. 

Another beek from Central America isn't having huge problems with the bees in his region. He also doesn't approach his hives, thinking that he's going to get a big 'ole hug from his bees.

These guys adapt, so the rest of us probably could.

I had my beginning beek 'moment' last summer while doing an inspection on a hot July afternoon. 90+ degrees, 70% humidity, sweat running down my face, soaking my beesuit, doing a full inspection on a Lang in a cloud of very angry bees. Quite a few stingers in my suit and gloves.

I imagine that is a somewhat average day in a AHB hive. Inconvenient, and maybe would make me consider not keeping bees anymore, but it might not be too bad once I got used to it.

------

We've got an advantage here, in that we do have a vibrant apiculture that raises queens and can assure a steady flow of EHB genetics into AHB areas. Unless AHB genetics are ultimately dominant, I guess that we'll have some halving of the distance between the two eventually. It may be time for us to consider what Brother Adam was doing and expect queen breeders to follow some of the same rigors. And remember that Brother Adam didn't tolerate a queen who bred testy bees.


----------



## Gene Weitzel

rw3212 said:


> You are correct, that was in the heart of AHB country Hidalgo County Texas. The original AHB swarm found in the USA was 3 miles from where I lived at that time, The only non-AHB's there are in the managed hives. Let one supersede and it WILL be AHB positive.
> 
> This was all a few years ago also. I don't know the situation there now, but can't imagine it has improved as,
> for-all-practical-purposes the ferel bees are at least hybreds.


I have done several removals of large feral hives in counties that have been considered Africanized for more than ten years. In all cases I ended up with very manageable EHB colonies. Admittedly, these removals were done from areas with a sizable commercial beekeeping presence, so it would seem anecdotally at least from my experience that not quite ALL the feral bees in these areas are Africanized.


----------



## kaisfate

So, in light of all of this information. Do we, as beekeepers in this era have a responsibility to try to undo what has been done? 
Should we be requeening? 
Should we be exterminating? (I hate even using that word)
What should our course of action be if we find our swarm or whatever are AHB? 
The person that said that his AHB hive gave off 5 swarms a year...is that wise?

I know the AHB's are supposed to be much more hardy then not, but at what cost? The more AHB stories you hear the more people will exterminate instead of relocate...

Im just asking, please dont take offense to anything I have posted above.

Thank you.


----------



## Tom G. Laury

****************

Thousands and thousands of more or less Africanized colonies are shipped every year in to California to pollinate. They are mean, especially after building up or in a dearth. I wouldn't care to have them myself. BUT these guys in say southern Texas are able to consistently supply lots of strong colonies early in the year with out the collapsing and losses other areas are experiencing. The farmers like them, they are very active. Plus, lid popping inspections are kept to a minimum. In spite of all this movement of colonies, they are not established here in the central valley.


----------



## Joseph Clemens

kaisfate,
This is a topic that seems to engender a few divergent responses. 

Some want to "kill them all", die, die, die :scratch:

And others want to spread them as far and wide as they possibly can. 

I realize that, contrary to the belief of some, the genetics of this race of bees has been introduced earlier and intentionally to this country, before the invasion from the South. The accounts of those raising queens from this material to distribute freely to beekeepers throughout this country, only a few decades ago, indicate how supremely defensive they can be. I am right in the midst of an area reported to be rampant with AHB, and I believe I have witnessed, several instances where some of the undesirable traits, not so often mentioned, have shown themselves in swarms I've hived and colonies that were "taken-over" by fist sized swarms of, possibly AHB bees. How some of these colonies, though not overly defensive, when opened for inspection, would almost completely run off the combs and out of the hive, clustering in a collar around the outside upper edge of the top super. Try finding the queen when most of the bees from the hive are clustered in this collar and those remaining on the combs are "running", clumping on the edges of the frame and dropping in small clumps onto the ground. 

- - - - -

I am continuously working to keep the majority of my colonies headed by queens of predominantly EHB ancestry, though all of the queens I produce myself are open mated, thus they have varying degrees of potentially AHB influence. So, if a colony begins to exhibit undesirable traits, I just give them a new queen cell after removing their unwanted queen.


----------



## Gene Weitzel

kaisfate said:


> So, in light of all of this information. Do we, as beekeepers in this era have a responsibility to try to undo what has been done?
> Should we be requeening?
> Should we be exterminating? (I hate even using that word)
> What should our course of action be if we find our swarm or whatever are AHB?
> The person that said that his AHB hive gave off 5 swarms a year...is that wise?
> 
> I know the AHB's are supposed to be much more hardy then not, but at what cost? The more AHB stories you hear the more people will exterminate instead of relocate...
> 
> Im just asking, please dont take offense to anything I have posted above.
> 
> Thank you.


Managing bees in areas with AHB presence is certainly not as simple as it was before their arrival. My personal approach is to keep a close eye on the temperament of my hives and re-queen with queens of known genetics any that are consistently aggressive when conditions (weather, nectar flow, time of day, etc.) are optimal for them to not be so. I also keep plenty of drone frames in hives headed by a queen of known genetics in an attempt to reduce the influence of AHB drones. At this point, I have not had any of my hives require more drastic action. At least half of my hives are of feral origin and so far none have proved to be unmanageable with this approach. Re-queening with Cordovan queens is another option that allows you to have a more visual indicator of when the hive supersedes and could be at risk.

As for what to do if you find out your hive is Africanized, I would think that your choices are clear, either attempt to re-queen or destroy the hive. I am pretty sure that at this point it is not legal to knowingly keep AHB's in most states.

The AHB problem is an ongoing battle and until such point that those who regulate beekeeping in our state/country acquiesce to them, we must continue to "fight the fight". I think that it is abundantly clear that we will never be able to eradicate them, but it does appear to me that there has been some measure of success at mitigating their influence.


----------



## rw3212

*Knowing what you have*

I think the thing that bothered me about having AHB's was that I was totally green and had purchased the bees I had from a local pro. He assured me the were EHB stock and their actions were normal honeybee activities. I knew nothing of swarm prevention at the time and relied on his guidance. I only found out the truth just before I left the area to come to Georgia. A fellow hobbiest, familiar with AHB, that I finally located took the hives I had and requeened them. He said that his group practiced annual requeening to keep the aggression under control. In my case it was the "mentor" who was more a problem than the bees.

I would not choose to keep AHB but if that was the only choice, one could adjust to the differences and go on.


----------



## josethayil

Instead of saying they are agressive over and over again, why dont people atleast try to use selective breeding to get a gentle strain of africanized bees will be much easier to work with.??

Its easy to keep complaining about a problem, instead of trying to find a solution for it. 

There are a lot of africanized bees in south america which are much gentle than what is currently in north america. this was achived through selective breeding and good management skills. 

Not all africanized bees are extremely aggressive, every strain of bees have gentle bees in them. We just have to select from those to make it easy on us and others. 

Check the bees from Brazil and Argentina which were very aggressive once and how they have changed over time to bee a much gentle bee through selective breeding.............


----------



## Adam Smith

*African bees demonstrate the biological reality of race*

Here's an interesting article on so-called "Africanized" bees.

http://www.earthfiles.com/news-print.php?ID=1541&category=Environment

In this age of political correctness, we are often told that the taxonomic category of race is only a social construct; an illusion. There is also the school of thought that behavior is infinitely malleable, and has nothing to do with genetics. The existence of the African race of bee disproves both of these rather unscientific ideas, and shows the necessity for keeping this taxonomic distinction. Race is a biological reality. You might want to keep that in mind the next time someone tries to tell you that race is "only a social construct", and that to believe otherwise is "racist".

I don't have references handy, but I do recall reading somewhere that very little hybridization with European honeybees has been taking place. What happens instead is a kind of "white flight" of the insect world, with European genetics quickly vanishing in invaded areas, since virgin queens appear to prefer mating with African drones. If so, this could quash hopes of producing a stable hybrid which has the relative gentleness of the European bee along with the vigor of the pure African strain. Also, no one seems to consider that the characteristics of aggression and vigor may be genetically linked in the African bee. But it's conceivable that it might turn out to be the case that you can't have one without the other.


----------



## Natalie

So, does anyone know for sure where the AHB is located in the states as in how far they have already traveled into the country. 
I am hearing alot of different things.
What about packages that come from say Georgia or some of the other states, is there any possibilty that they are going to be spread through packages at this time?


----------



## Ross

So, of all these reported AHB bees, who has actually had DNA done and confirmed? Morphological studies are unreliable in determining AHB if any small cell bees are present.


----------



## Troy

Here is the official usda map:


http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/docs.htmdocid=11059&page=6

If you look at Florida, and then look at the north easternmost county, that is me. Orange county Florida is right on the edge. 

That color says 2005, and this is 2009, so I think this is the main year of infestation, because I caught 5 swarms in my own yard in empty supers just waiting to go back onto the hives. These things are aggressive, but also prolific.

I am requeening as quickly as possible as I believe they are africanized.


----------



## Gene Weitzel

Ross said:


> So, of all these reported AHB bees, who has actually had DNA done and confirmed? Morphological studies are unreliable in determining AHB if any small cell bees are present.


Morphological studies are unreliable IMO mostly because there were never any regional mapping of Morphological characteristics of feral populations done prior to the AHB arrival that would have established a basis for comparison. In Texas and other parts of the country there is also a significant presence of Apis lamarkii in the feral populations. Apis lamarkii (the Egyptian honey bee) are nearly identical morphologically to Apis scutellata. Small cell bees may cause some confusion in a few of the morphological characteristics that are related to the Thorax size and Fore wing length of the bees, however, I don't think raising EHB on small cell comb could change other more distinctive characteristics such as Discoidal shift, Cubital index, 4th tergite Tomentum width and 5th tergite Overhair lengths, etc. As mentioned above, without a basis for the feral population prior to the AHB arrival, it seems rather unscientific to assume what they should be and then estimate the degree of Africanization based on their variation from those assumptions. To me it is no better than assuming that a hot hive is Africanized on that basis alone. I do believe that when combined with temperament and other behaviors, detailed morphological studies on hives can provide enough suspicion to warrant re-queening or other corrective measures. But if you want to remove all doubt, IMO DNA analysis would be required.


----------



## Dr.Wax

Your link doesn't work.


----------



## tecumseh

mr smith says:
There is also the school of thought that behavior is infinitely malleable, and has nothing to do with genetics.

tecumseh:
humm this idea would seem to conflict with the work of one of my wife's early mentors (who won the nobel for his work). I do however suspect you are somewhat confused in regards to your prior comments in regards to genetics vs race. from what we know NOW... certain genetic predispostion MAY BE somewhat to highly malleable and other (behavioral characteristic) almost set in stone (typically associated with basic survival instincts). this variation (which by the way exist in almost all things you can measure) still require a somewhat to highly artifical SCALE composed by man. the advance of KNOWLEDGE tends to modify this scale in an almost constant fashion.

based upon what I have read in the old literature... the first africanized hive was found in California and a post morteum of the hive suggested it had shifted back to european bees quite quickly. steve taber wrote that he had distributed africanized semen across the us of about 20 years prior to this discovery. mr taber also suggest that the dispostion of the africanized hybrid varied highly based upon location (altitude, temperature and humidity being the variable considered).

here the indirect question of this thread is handled quite simply... you take a sample to the Texas bee lab and have them tell you what you have. as far as my own testing here on the edge of this problem... prior years fairly extensive sampling suggest that the time of year in which queens are reared and large numbers of commercial yards near by do make a significant difference in the outcome of a queens mating.

thanks ya' gene weitzel for you comments concerning morphological characteristics. I say this because it does seem some small cell folks seem to maintain some fear that their efforts will be confused with maintaining africanized stock. I will also tag unto your comments that these morpohological characteristics have NO relationship to the defensive/aggressive behavior of honeybee. that is... morphological characteristics to do predetermined aggressive behavior.


----------



## Gene Weitzel

tecumseh said:


> .......... I will also tag unto your comments that these morpohological characteristics have NO relationship to the defensive/aggressive behavior of honeybee. that is... morphological characteristics to do predetermined aggressive behavior.


Not sure I understand what you were trying to say here. My comment was intended to suggest that a hot hive that displays other common AHB behaviors (like excessive swarming, nervousness and hypersensitivity to vibrations) along with sharing similar morphological characteristics of Apis Scutellata would cast enough suspicion on the hive to warrant intervention by the beekeeper but would still not necessarily be definitive without the added certainty of DNA analysis. I would think that most responsible beekeepers would probably intervene anyway since those behaviors are not desirable rendering a morphological analysis moot. I would also go on record and state that IMO morphological studies of bees that display the behaviors that we value as beekeepers would be a waste of time if one were trying to determine the risk that AHB behavior could surface in subsequent generations. DNA analysis, IMO is the only way to definitively identify such risk.


----------



## LBEE

Here is another map:

http://www.stingshield.com/all-us.htm

In Oregon, many of us like to go out into the woods, by walking, horseback, or 4 wheeling. The prospect of AHB in the woods and an unsuspecting or unknowing public is not a pleasant one. The adjustments required by beekeepers and finding locations of apiaries which are remote, accessible, and yet providing good forage will make beekeeping more difficult. I am hoping that Southern Oregon is north of their northern limit of infestation, but time will tell.

Larry


----------



## Gene Weitzel

From what I have read, feral AHB colonies do much better in temperate areas that more closely approximate the climate in the savannas where they originated and then of course the more tropical areas like FL. This may be why feral bees in west Texas, parts of central Texas, NM, AZ and southern CA seem to have a higher degree of AHB characteristics than other areas across the South. My area in east Texas has a pretty good presence, but the latest studies I have seen indicate that it is in the 25 - 30% range and has not changed much in recent years. They don't seem to compete as well with the EHB in the areas near me with sizable commercial beekeeping influence. They are able to establish themselves in the more wilderness type areas where EHB preferred cavities are more scarce and resources would not support EHB's very well (AHB are not nearly as selective and are quite satisfied with smaller cavities and even ones that are below ground level, they are also more mobile and will "chase" resources as needed). In resource rich areas that suit them, they can build up into enormous colonies. In the resource scarce areas, they easily adapt by maintaining a small more mobile colony, absconding as needed to find new resources. I don't know if your wilderness areas would fit the bill for them to be successful at establishing a viable feral population, my suspicion would be that it may not, but as you say, time will tell.


----------



## Bud Dingler

*touche*



Ross said:


> more bs bashing


sorry pal but my claims have now been supported here by Tom Laury's ************* post and Joseph Clemens post and elsewhere. Its not like i fell off the turnip truck yesterday. 

Ross, I sense you are protecting a TX queen selller? I am not intending ton bash southern queen producers as there are many good beekeepers in the south. I'm just speaking from 50 plus years of experience and knowledge and have no axe to grind. 

It does not take a Phd to figure out that if south of the border is 100% nasty girls that eventually the same fate will be seen in southern USA. My claim of the north being the repository for EHB genetics is also supported by University Researchers who feel more beekeepers up here should be raising their own queens. In fact a rssearcher who shall remain nameless in her well known queen rearing, course materials in the introduction, gives a short overview of why raise queens in the north and the short answer provided is to keep the AHB genes out!


----------



## Adam Smith

tecumseh said:


> mr smith says:
> There is also the school of thought that behavior is infinitely malleable, and has nothing to do with genetics.
> 
> tecumseh:
> humm this idea would seem to conflict with the work of one of my wife's early mentors (who won the nobel for his work). I do however suspect you are somewhat confused in regards to your prior comments in regards to genetics vs race. from what we know NOW... certain genetic predispostion MAY BE somewhat to highly malleable and other (behavioral characteristic) almost set in stone (typically associated with basic survival instincts). this variation (which by the way exist in almost all things you can measure) still require a somewhat to highly artifical SCALE composed by man. the advance of KNOWLEDGE tends to modify this scale in an almost constant fashion.


The notion that man somehow creates (or socially constructs) races by the process of describing them is nonsense. Man no more creates races by describing them than he creates species by describing them, or genera. A lot of people have trouble with this point because of political correctness and its application to _**** sapiens_. Yet, even in an age when races can be told apart by analysis of DNA, some continue to cling with an almost religious fervor to their belief that race is an artificial distinction that man creates.

My point is that genetically-based variation in animal behavior, along with the morphological characteristics by which races are delineated, doesn't require anything by man. It exists independently. If man were to vanish from the earth tomorrow, the various races of bees could still exist. African bees would still have all of their same characteristics, and be quite different than European bees. The existence of racial hybrids, far from disproving the objective reality of race, is actually an argument in favor of it, since without objectively separate races, hybrids would be impossible.

With the advance or (in the case of political correctness) retreat of knowledge, our descriptions of this reality may change, but those descriptions don't affect the underlying reality itself.


----------



## tecumseh

my smip via gene weitzel:
morphological characteristics to do predetermined aggressive behavior.

the to do should have been 'do not'. or prehaps more precisely stated.. the correlation between morphological characteristics and defensive/aggressive doesn't present much informtion. I would agree (at least I think we are agreeing here???) that a list of behavior characteristics tells you much more than morphological consideration

mr dingler writes:
Ross, I sense you are protecting a TX queen selller? I am not intending ton bash southern queen producers as there are many good beekeepers in the south. I'm just speaking from 50 plus years of experience and knowledge and have no axe to grind.

tecumseh:
well you do seem to bring up this 'selling point' at every opportunity and with little evidence to support your claim. It does seem like you have a ax to grind give how often you bring up this issue. 

bug continues with:
It does not take a Phd to figure out that if south of the border is 100% nasty girls that eventually the same fate will be seen in southern USA. My claim of the north being the repository for EHB genetics is also supported by University Researchers who feel more beekeepers up here should be raising their own queens. In fact a rssearcher who shall remain nameless in her well known queen rearing, course materials in the introduction, gives a short overview of why raise queens in the north and the short answer provided is to keep the AHB genes out!

tecumseh:
you are projecting a trend here without any evidence to support the claim... perhaps a phd would have alerted you to the mental error (but then again perhaps not). matter of fact gene weitzel presented a bit of evidence to suggest you claim has no bases in reality. if you can believe what steve taber wrote it would suggest that africanized blood lines have existed even in northern states for quite some time.

marla spivak certainly does have an iron in the fire here and would likely list a whole array of reasons (not one over compelling reason) for folks to take her course and produce queens 'locally'. I support her efforts entirely.

a numero uno mr smith snip:
The notion that man somehow creates (or socially constructs) races by the process of describing them is nonsense. Man no more creates races by describing them than he creates species by describing them, or genera.

tecumseh:
then one could expect some bioliogical entity like nosema to have been in the same designation since the invention of the species/sub species classification. 

your NOTION is extremely old school and most folks who think about such stuff would find the content of your writing quaint and also highly misleading.

you contant falling back on the boogy man of political correctness speaks volumes... which is absolute NOISE on the informational level.

a numero twoooo mr smith snip:
If man were to vanish from the earth tomorrow, the various races of bees could still exist. African bees would still have all of their same characteristics, and be quite different than European bees.

tecumseh:
so the knife (defined and built by man) that defines where a species might find itself would still exist? since current dna genetic information suggest pretty conclusively that the european bee originated from africa... your last sentence (given sufficient time) is absolutely incorrect. 

numero threeo snip via mr smith:
With the advance or (in the case of political correctness) retreat of knowledge, our descriptions of this reality may change, but those descriptions don't affect the underlying reality itself.

tecumseh:
there ya' go again... tossing out that political correctness boogey man without presenting anything to support your quaint notion. 

reality is what it is but it is seen through very much human eyes and process via a grey matter computer with bias(s) already built in. a casual review of what Einstein wrote would suggest to almost everyone that it ain't always the same.


----------



## Adam Smith

tecumseh said:


> a numero uno mr smith snip:
> The notion that man somehow creates (or socially constructs) races by the process of describing them is nonsense. Man no more creates races by describing them than he creates species by describing them, or genera.
> 
> tecumseh:
> then one could expect some bioliogical entity like nosema to have been in the same designation since the invention of the species/sub species classification.


You are again conflating the name for the thing with the thing itself.



tecumseh said:


> your NOTION is extremely old school and most folks who think about such stuff would find the content of your writing quaint and also highly misleading.


So asserting the existence of a reality that is independent of what people think of it is something you want to derisively characterize as "quaint" and "highly misleading"? Are you serious? :lpf: If that's the case, then I'll plead guilty. Yes, I DO believe reality exists apart from our ideas about it. Pretty wacky, huh?



tecumseh said:


> you contant falling back on the boogy man of political correctness speaks volumes... which is absolute NOISE on the informational level.


You object to the term political correctness? LOL. I can think of a lot of other terms for those people who attempt to shut down debate on these questions by means of personal attacks, but none of them are so polite. This reminds me of the line in the Woody Allen movie "Annie Hall":

Woody: I'm very anal.
Annie Hall: Anal is the _polite_ word for what you are!

Actually though, political is exactly the right word, since it's apparent that those reality-deniers who claim that races are socially constructed do so for political, not scientific, reasons. They are frightened by the implications of the idea that human races exist, differing in outward form, temperament, aptitudes, and abilities, much like European and African bees do.



tecumseh said:


> a numero twoooo mr smith snip:
> If man were to vanish from the earth tomorrow, the various races of bees could still exist. African bees would still have all of their same characteristics, and be quite different than European bees.
> 
> tecumseh:
> so the knife (defined and built by man) that defines where a species might find itself would still exist? since current dna genetic information suggest pretty conclusively that the european bee originated from africa... your last sentence (given sufficient time) is absolutely incorrect.


The evolutionary origin of the European bee is not germane. The point is that the two races of bees are different NOW. Further, they would continue to be different NOW, regardless of the perceptions or even the existence of man.



tecumseh said:


> numero threeo snip via mr smith:
> With the advance or (in the case of political correctness) retreat of knowledge, our descriptions of this reality may change, but those descriptions don't affect the underlying reality itself.
> 
> tecumseh:
> there ya' go again... tossing out that political correctness boogey man without presenting anything to support your quaint notion.
> 
> reality is what it is but it is seen through very much human eyes and process via a grey matter computer with bias(s) already built in.


"Reality is that which remains after you stop believing in it."



tecumseh said:


> a casual review of what Einstein wrote would suggest to almost everyone that it ain't always the same.


Exactly. Reality and our beliefs about it are two different things. Glad you've finally come 'round.


----------



## tecumseh

mr smith writes:
You are again conflating the name for the thing with the thing itself.

tecumseh:
lauguage and mental constructs are symbolic... either only loosely represents physical reality. any number of variable (at least two defined by einstein) might vary how we perceive and define physical reality.

are you suggesting that man thinking is not symbolic?

then mr smith continues with:
So asserting the existence of a reality that is independent of what people think of it is something you want to derisively characterize as "quaint" and "highly misleading"? Are you serious? If that's the case, then I'll plead guilty. Yes, I DO believe reality exists apart from our ideas about it. Pretty wacky, huh?

tecumseh:
why yes it is... such thinking would have been quite mainstream 100 years ago but will get you no gold stars given what we know today. betrand russell (a history of western philisophy) attacts the question quite directly and pretty much lines out who is currently 'winning' in regards to this basic question (which has been around at least as long as the ancient greeks). 

then mr smith writes:
You object to the term political correctness? LOL. I can think of a lot of other terms for those people who attempt to shut down debate on these questions by means of personal attacks, but none of them are so polite. This reminds me of the line in the Woody Allen movie "Annie Hall":

tecumseh:
proving a point by presenting some line from a movie (fictional I would guess???) does not give much weight to your argument. given the movie is likely (haven't seen it, so I am guessing here) a comody and fiction (by definition somewhat to highly removed from reality) suggest you are guilty of exactly the kind of thinking (actually the lack thereof) of what you are accusing others. 

tecumseh:
Actually though, political is exactly the right word, since it's apparent that those reality-deniers who claim that races are socially constructed do so for political, not scientific, reasons. They are frightened by the implications of the idea that human races exist, differing in outward form, temperament, aptitudes, and abilities, much like European and African bees do.

tecumseh:
perhaps you might first want to establish some definition for the term politcally correct with which we could all agree??? if not??? then you are only intermixing the thinking of science with current strategies of political spin to obtain some political advantage.

once again your constant 'attempt' to falling back on the vague term of political correctness speaks volumes about your thinking (well actually the lack thereof). 

then mr smith adds:
The evolutionary origin of the European bee is not germane. The point is that the two races of bees are different NOW. Further, they would continue to be different NOW, regardless of the perceptions or even the existence of man.

tecumseh:
I gave you a simple 'real world' example which you have decided to reject. quite obviously if man didn't exist we wouldn't be having this conversation and the 'differences' (if they exist) would not matter one whit. 

it is quite evident (at least to me) that you are highly confuse into believing that mental model (constructs) are reality or politcal spin (which is my own personal view of what 'politically correct' actually represents) might in someway alter these constructs. that is.... by altering the rhetoric you might in someway alter how folks think (which is by itself quite a viable idea).

then mr smith writes:
"Reality is that which remains after you stop believing in it."

tecumseh:
another meaningless and unidentified quote. your argument grows constantly weaker.


----------



## josethayil

I thought we were discussing if africanized bees were really aggressive or not. If people just wants to fight, why dont they start a new forum with the heading " *Join for a fight using complicated words* ". 

i think more people are reading this thread to know about the experience of others about africanized bees, not someones fight.


----------



## Bizzybee

Yeah, they mostly impress themselves. Some, somehow thinks it's educational. More often than not, it's just a thread stopper for everyone else and they move on to better subjects and conversations.

Carry on.................


----------



## NeilV

Here's another map that indcates the spread:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/docs.htm?docid=11059&page=6

Also, one problem with this and similar maps is that if they don't test for AHB in an area then the map does not show any AHB. For example, they quit keeping records in Texas by the time they moved to North Texas. They did not jump across North Texas to Oklahoma.

For anybody who is really interested in this topic or who lives where AHB may invade in the near future, I recommend reading Africanized Honeybees in the Americas by Dewey Caron. 

I don't want to get into a debate about race or epistimology, but I would add that in bees aggression is 100% genetic. Of course given environmental effects can make a hive calmer or rowdier. However, the underlying behavior is gentically programmed. You can't send them to anger management classes, after all.

At least as of the late 1970s some dude did his PhD dissertation by doing behavior studies and regression analysis on bee agression and genetics. He concluded that there are probably a total of eight genes that affect aggressiveness in bees. The good news is that for most of those genes the aggressioin gene is recessive. I recently did a post in the bee breeding section asking if there was more current info on this, and nobody really had much new to say.

The bad news, as far as AHB is concerned is that:

1. Aggession genes are much more common in AHB.

2. Where AHB really are more suited to the environment, they tend to take over and eliminate the EHB altogether. From Brazil up to Mexico, there was very little hybridization between AHB and EHB. The AHB took over completely. However, EHB did poorly in that area and they did not even swarm, so AHB had huge advantage. Of course, that is why they imported African bees into Brazil in the first place. Going south into Argentina, the climate is more temperate/European, and there was a place with some mixing of races and hybridization. That then tapered out to an area where there are all EHB. This will happen in N. America, and the best guess is that Kansas/Nebraska will be the dividing line between AHB/EHB (according to info. in a talk by Dewey Caron in March of this year).

3. A given hive can be hot when the queen has mated with only some AHB drones. The AHB sperm can create a percentage of workers that, due to aggressiveness, get the whole hive into attack mode (or at least more worked up than a EHB hive would be). 

That's all I've got, 

Neil


----------



## tecumseh

josethayil:
i think more people are reading this thread to know about the experience of others about africanized bees, not someones fight.

tecumseh:
I am sorry to have interrupted the entertainment value of this thread. I am saddened that somefolks here quite often times confuse correcting someone's poorly reseached term paper with some fight or conflict.


----------



## JBG

I have a small apiary going in Teresopolis Brazil. About 12 colonies. All bees in Brazil are AHB and there is alot of fiction being spun here. Hitting your veil so hard that venom comes out, swarming on you for 100 yards, inspect the brood and all He.. breaks loose, etc. I can tell you the basic K. Delaplane entry on AHB in First Lessons in Beekeeping is very accurate. No bs. Honey production and quality is superb and completely chemical free, which is the big selling point for Brazilian honey right now. The biggest source of truly organic honey on earth. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/9097662 Note the lack of gloves.


----------



## Ross

> Ross, I sense you are protecting a TX queen selller? I am not intending ton bash southern queen producers as there are many good beekeepers in the south. I'm just speaking from 50 plus years of experience and knowledge and have no axe to grind.


Actually I'm not protecting anyone. I don't buy or sell queens, but I do raise my own. I am surrounded by counties deemed AHB, but have seen no tendency toward aggressive hives in 10+ years of raising my own queens. Most of east Texas and across the deep south has not seen any appreciable AHB influence. The southwest, including west Texas, NM, AZ, CA have. Not a lot of queen breeders in the desert southwest compared to the southeast. Painting them all with the same brush is irresponsible bashing, and self serving it seems. If you have facts, trot them out. Otherwise it's just idle bashing.


----------



## JBG

josethayil said:


> Instead of saying they are agressive over and over again, why dont people atleast try to use selective breeding to get a gentle strain of africanized bees will be much easier to work with.??
> 
> Its easy to keep complaining about a problem, instead of trying to find a solution for it.
> 
> There are a lot of africanized bees in south america which are much gentle than what is currently in north america. this was achived through selective breeding and good management skills.
> 
> Not all africanized bees are extremely aggressive, every strain of bees have gentle bees in them. We just have to select from those to make it easy on us and others.
> 
> Check the bees from Brazil and Argentina which were very aggressive once and how they have changed over time to bee a much gentle bee through selective breeding.............


Pure fantasy here. The experience in Brazil is that its pointless in trying to 
EHB hybridize. Good management skills in Brazil and parts of Argentina with AHBs means beeks adapt to working with the AHB and taking advantage of the increased vigor, and health.


----------



## beyondthesidewalks

I live in an area that is supposed to be taken over by AHB. I don't see anything as hot as some bees that I got from Alabama long before AHB came here or there. The hottest bees I've ever seen were the german black bees and there are tons of them here in feral hives.

The fact is that swarms of bees are not chasing people through the woods or fields or down the streets. We are all just fine and our bees are fine too. I have a few hot hives but nothing beyond the pale. I can keep bees and it will not be AHB that may end my run as a beekeeper but a bad back.

Quit the worrying and fighting. They are not that bad and people are sensationalizing AHB for some sort of gain.

I'll step down from my soap box now.


----------



## DRUR

Dr.Wax said:


> Your link doesn't work.


Try this one:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/docs.htm?docid=11059&page=6

It is large so you must scroll down and across for the 2009 map of AHB.


----------



## DRUR

One thing I don't understand is the contention that since there is AHB south of the Border then the whole south will be infested, and Lordy mercy, we will be dependent on the north to raise queens for distribution. Well I ask you this, If the whole south becomes infested with AHB, what would prevent the whole middle portion of the USA from being infested, and then eventually the whole Northern portion, and then Canada.

Let's use some facts to support this contention. It is interesting to me to note that Counties North and West and yes, even East have supposedly been Africanized, but yet notice Anderson and adjacent Cherokee County are not. Now speaking from the voice of experience (as I have extensively logged in these Texas Counties) these areas are smack dab in the middle of the East Texas Pinewoods, large area of relatively rural with low populations and vast forests.

Seems to me before drawing the lines there needs to be some facts to support where that line will stop lest the North Pole will be over-run with AHB.

Seems like to me that that demarkation line (at least what was proposed during the 80s when I kept bees), was about San Antonio Austin area in Texas; although they would spread further North during the warm months only to be killed out during the winter, as supposedly the AHB don't cluster during the winter.

Also, another thing which was observed during that period of time was that these bees did not build up sufficient winter stores for survival as they were to prolific with swarming. Has this genetice feature changed?


----------



## beyondthesidewalks

DRUR said:


> Let's use some facts to support this contention. It is interesting to me to note that Counties North and West and yes, even East have supposedly been Africanized, but yet notice Anderson and adjacent Cherokee County are not.


If I am not mistaken they have stopped following the spread of AHB in Texas and now consider the entire state over-run with AHB. That accounts for the big gap between the Red River counties and Oklahoma. Just because your county doesn't show the progress of AHB doesn't mean that there aren't AHB in your county.

I think that some folks out there have an opportunity to bash southern queen breeders and promote their northern queens. Others might bash southern package producers and promote their own. Yet others might do everything in their power to get the AHB made illegal so that they can make a fortune removing them. I guess I don't blame them, they're just trying to make buck. I blame those who continue to sensationalize this issue and cannot see they're being played or duped. 

The Bottom Line: AHB are not that bad. Life goes on. Don't let those who want to make a buck get you worried.


----------



## Demo Spec

Simple- normal honeybees are men with guns who defend as needed

ahb are men with guns that have anger issues

same thing, one just takes the moving object 200 yards away to be a threat, the other doesnt


Moral of the story: Thank God for gentle bees.


----------



## beyondthesidewalks

Demo Spec said:


> ahb are men with guns that have anger issues


That's anthropomorphic. AHB are not angry just overly defensive because it has worked for them. STOP THE HYPE!!!


----------



## Tom G. Laury

Paul Jackson the Texas state bee inspector gave a very interesting talk at a convention I attended. The spread of Africanized bees occurs along the major highways where the bees hitch a ride on trucks. (Not necessarily bee trucks). It is not the migration of the colonies that spreads them rather it is mans activities.
Plus jillions of them get shipped out for almond pollination with out restrictions. This is how they spread, but don't seem to be established outside the climatic boundaries of the sub tropics.


----------



## DRUR

Tom G. Laury said:


> The spread of Africanized bees occurs along the major highways where the bees hitch a ride on trucks. (Not necessarily bee trucks). It is not the migration of the colonies that spreads them rather it is mans activities.
> Plus jillions of them get shipped out for almond pollination with out restrictions. This is how they spread, but don't seem to be established outside the climatic boundaries of the sub tropics.


Exactly. I read somewhere that Florida's Ahb came on a ship. True or not, I don't know. Before I began beekeeping this year, I set out lids of honey up to two miles around my location. No bees worked this. If we are over run with Ahb where were they at. I am located in the central part of East Texas, surrounded by forests. The precise type of environment (excluding temperate region) where they would survive. 

Will they be more of a problem around south Texas? Most certainly would, drones can fly a long ways. 

Let's be logical and realistic about this.

First, I simply can't resolve in my mind how the North can supply the queens and packagages in time to make a crop. Doesn't seem like they have enough time. Do the math. it takes 21 days to raise brood + another 7 days to start foraging. Takes 28 days to raise a queen to laying, and this takes bee resources, go figure. Takes even longer to get sufficient drone population to a breedable state. Unless you are prepared to incubate or provide AI or some other elevated procedures you're outta luck.

Second, the biggest portion of the migratory beekeepers winter in the south, and for very good reason as the winters are harsh in the north. 

Third, they go north to make there honey crop as the north has a much shorter growing season. But the good Lord has compensated them for longer days during the summer months. Bees can work longer and gather more honey. During the summer the weather is not as harsh for as long. I have seen over 40 straight days of 100+ temperatures 10+ of those days were 110+, and I am in the central part of East Texas with high humidity.

Fourth, can AHB infect these queens and packages? Yes, and those producers have a responsibility to institute management procedures to be sure that this is kept to a minimum.

Fifth, if a nothern beekeeper (migratory or otherwise), has a colony that appears to be africanized, they have a responsibility to rectify that problem, and not to bring your africanized bees back down south.

Sixth, one of the things that makes commercial beekeeping so successful in this country is the different regions help each other. Go figure, we need each other.


----------



## JBG

DRUR said:


> Fifth, if a nothern beekeeper (migratory or otherwise), has a colony that appears to be africanized, they have a responsibility to rectify that problem, and not to bring your africanized bees back down south.
> 
> ======================================================
> Only if you offer a warranty about not sending them up here in thre first place. Besides, you still don't get it, it does not matter what kind of war you want to declare on AHBs in the south. It will be as successful as the war on drugs. You might as well get used to them and start taking advantage of their positive aspects just like everywhere else in the western hemisphere


----------



## DRUR

JBG said:


> DRUR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fifth,they have a responsibility to rectify that problem, and not to bring your africanized bees back down south.
> 
> ======================================================
> Besides, you still don't get it, it does not matter what kind of war you want to declare on AHBs in the south. It will be as successful as the war on drugs.
> 
> You might as well get used to them and start taking advantage of their positive aspects just like everywhere else in the western hemisphere
> 
> 
> 
> JBG seems like you got a laugh out of my last comment, as it was meant to be somewhat as a joke; although not the part concerning our responsibility in dealing with AHB.
> 
> I think we are/have been successful on the war against AHB. They are under control in most of the country. Ahb successes will be limited the further away from their demakation line.
> 
> I will not get used to them and I will destroy them every chance I get.
> 
> The only positive aspect of Ahb that I am interested in is when they freeze to death during winter time.
> 
> This is not only propaganda about their dangers. Go to the Agricultural Research Center and read about them here:
> http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/docs.htm?docid=11059&page=2
> 
> Look at the picture where the beekeeper is covered up. This is unacceptable behaviour around people and colonies like this are dangerous and should be destroyed pronto. By first dividing and then requeening.
> 
> Also I don't believe the fairy tales about large honey production. I do believe that they are very active foragers, but their tendency to swarm numerous time a year destroys any advantage gained. In closing all I can say is
> inch:inch:inch:
Click to expand...


----------



## JBG

So in this war are you willing to introduce even more pesticide into our enviornment toxic to all bees to destroy them? You really want to encourage that hysteria? 
Also, I don't need to read any articles from the USDA or look at any other sources about AHBs. If you follow this thread you will see that I am keeping them in Brazil and my information comes first hand from working with them in the field. http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2705585596/


----------



## JBG

DRUR said:


> JBG said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think we are/have been successful on the war against AHB. They are under control in most of the country.
> 
> 
> 
> Right, this map is the picture of success. Next you can tell my about how we really won in Vietnam.
> 
> http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/docs.htm?docid=11059&page=6
Click to expand...


----------



## DRUR

JBG said:


> DRUR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right, this map is the picture of success.
> 
> Next you can tell my about how we really won in Vietnam.
> 
> http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/docs.htm?docid=11059&page=6
> 
> 
> 
> Well, they certainly are under control, might take a look at the map (and see my post #50) and see Anderson County Texas is not included. And with proper management techniques they will stay under control. Just because Ahb has been found or reported in a county does not mean they have been over-run with them. Different areas of Texas require different management techniques. I know of migratory beeks who winter a lot further south of me and deal with the problem, and it is and/or can be a problem.
> 
> And No we didn't win in Nam, but I mean were we even in a War there, never delcared. All I will say about this is Linebacker 2, December of 1972.
Click to expand...


----------



## Tomas

*Africanized Bees in Honduras*

For the last 18 years I have been living in Honduras and working with Africanized bees. They can be managed and they can make honey but it is a much different management style that needs to be used. I work with them and actually enjoy it (most of the time). I am also now in my third year of working seasonally for some commercial beekeepers in Wisconsin (2000+ hives). This has given me a pretty good idea of how beekeeping is generally done on a larger scale in the States and what’s involved with it. I also have a dozen of my own hives in Wisconsin with my brother—doing this more as a hobbyist than commercially (it’s something to mess around with on the weekends).

So……here are some of my thoughts on how beekeeping in the States would change if there were just hives like the Africanized ones I deal with in Honduras.

Beginning with the initial question on this thread, Africanized bees can be bad. It seems like everybody in Honduras has a story about where a horse or chickens were stung to death or somebody got stung up pretty bad. Newspaper stories about stinging incidents are still common even though people have been dealing with Africanized bees in Honduras since about 1985. But there is always a reason that somebody or something gets attacked. It’s the horse that rubs up against the hive or the children who are playing too close to the feral colony. You leave them alone and they will generally leave you alone. 

Someone mentioned Africanized bees coming at you from 200 yards away. I only see this happening if they are already really riled up for some reason (beekeeper is in there working them or something like ants are messing with them). And then it usually would only be a few buzzing around your head at that distant. I usually walk right into my apiaries and put on my suit there, maybe 20 yards away from the hives. I will even walk around the hives checking entrance activity without putting up my veil (but it’s tied on and ready to raise over my head if needed, as well as having the smoker on hand and lit). But once I start to really mess with them I make sure I’m completely suited up and pouring the smoke on them.

Africanized bees can be managed. They can make a decent amount of honey. Disease problems are not real common--but swarming is. Sometimes they can be pretty docile while at other times they get down right ornery.

I’m not real sure how “Africanized” the bees will become in the southern part of the States. Considering the size of the beekeeping industry here I think having all those hives of European bees will help to buffer many feral hives from becoming truly “Africanized”. I think many of those feral hives would be more of a “hybrid cross” and thus a bit calmer. Managed hives can be easily requeened if necessary. That type of beekeeping infrastructure was not present in Honduras (and still isn’t present) and I believe helped all colonies there to become “Africanized” much faster. Something resembling a European honeybee no longer exists there. Everything resembles more of an “African” bee.

Full-blown africanized honeybees (such as I deal with in Honduras) I believe would be a problem for the commercial beekeepers in the U.S. if they wish to continue running their apiaries as they do now. Hobbiests and sideliners, however, may have less of a problem considering how they work with their hives and go about this activity. 

We are now in the middle of pulling honey in Wisconsin. The name of the game for the commercial beekeeper here is to get into the yard, pull off the full supers, load them on the truck and get to the next yard as fast as you can (time is money). It would be a really ugly situation if all those hives we are banging around to get the honey off would be Africanized. 

I can’t do that when working my Africanized hives in Honduras. I like (and need) to go nice and slow in order to try and keep them somewhat calm—much as a hobbiest would do in the States. If I don’t use some care I will have a bunch of angry bees stinging my gloves and bouncing off my veil. I don’t usually worry about myself when they get riled up but you never know who or what might wander by to check out what’s going on. It’s that odd person or horse or cow that will be in trouble.

My small hives are pretty calm. Nucs and new swarms aren’t too much of a problem to work with. Just an extra shirt, gloves and a veil are usually sufficient to work with them. But to make honey you want big hives; the same for pollination. Big Africanized hives get defensive and ornery. That means you need a full suit with an extra long sleeved shirt underneath it to avoid all those half stings (not fun in hot weather). Pants legs should be taped down. I use insulated leather winter gloves for working my hives in Honduras (my wife sews the sleeve on them). I would get too many half-stings through the leather bee gloves I use here in Wisconsin. I get enough of them now just working with European bees (especially on a drizzly day like we had today).

Pulling honey from Africanized hives during a flow isn’t too bad (as long as you don’t bang around on the hive too much). During the dearth my bees can be very robby and ornery. I can imagine that pulling the last of the supers off in the fall from Africanized hives in Wisconsin wouldn’t be much fun. It would be even worse on a dreary or drizzly or cool day. Commercial operators can’t always wait for the perfect sunny warm day to work the hives.

I’m not sure that four-way pallets would work that well either. If one of the hives starts to get riled up I’m pretty sure the other three are going to join in also. Keeping Africanized hives further apart (as in on individual bottom boards) with smaller numbers in the yard is better. Forty-eight hives on four-way pallets close to each other isn’t the ideal situation for Africanized bees. 

For the migratory beekeepers, you don’t really want leaky boxes (keep those bees inside). You want to make sure you have decent equipment in good shape. You would probably want to close up all the entrances before you start to move them. I wouldn’t load a semi with my Africanized hives while the entrances are open. That would probably also mean using a ventilated top with them—something many commercial beeks don’t bother with in the States. (This means extra equipment, extra investment). 

As far as hobbyists, you would not want to have my bees within city limits or too close to the house. Urban beekeeping would probably have to disappear. It would be very difficult, and dangerous, to “manage” one of my hives in town. They will probably stay fairly calm along as you don’t really mess with them. But you may never know what will cause it to go bonkers (neighbor’s dog or a child’s ball or a lawn mower). It is a potential disaster waiting to happen. Again, you usually want a nice, big, strong hive which means they get much more defensive.

Beekeeping is a lucrative endeavor in Honduras. When looking at the overall economic situation there, you can make decent money (within the Honduran economy) off of relatively few hives. Honey is actually a luxury item. It fetches a very good price. And considering what I have to put up with to produce that honey (ornery Africanized bees), I don’t feel bad about having to charge a high price for it—even though some people cannot afford it. 

It makes me wonder what U.S. beekeepers would want and need to charge in the States for having to deal with the same situation to produce honey. I think costs would definitely go up for the U.S. beekeeper and thus for the consumer. For example, Africanized bees are more labor intensive in my opinion. Consider that in Honduras I usually have one person basically just manning the smoker, always ready when I say I need another puff of smoke on the bees. And, as I indicated, it is much slower to do what needs to be done with the bees. I see the commercial guy getting much less done in a day than what he does now. So that would probably mean they would have to manage less hives or hire extra help—less earnings or more expenses.

Just some thoughts. 

----------
Tom


----------



## beyondthesidewalks

Thanks, Tomas, for your very balanced and honest assessment of AHB beekeeping.


----------



## JBG

*Re: Africanized Bees in Honduras*

Thanks for the very thoughtful post. In my case the previous owner of the Brazil farm I am at tried hobby beekeeping but allowed his horse to get too close to the hives rubbing against them. The bees killed his horse and he abandoned the hobby and all his equip as this was very traumatic for him. My WI bee guru tells me that it is not particularly hard for any disturbed bee colony to kill a horse as they start to hyperventilate and having large mouth and nostrils inhale many bees and then it's over for them. Anyway beekeeping in AHB countries is a much more serious affair as far as the time and resource dedication typical of commercial guys but requires the care and
gentler handling more typical of the hobby keeper.


----------



## DRUR

JBG said:


> So in this war are you willing to introduce even more pesticide into our enviornment toxic to all bees to destroy them? You really want to encourage that hysteria?
> Also, I don't need to read any articles from the USDA or look at any other sources about AHBs. If you follow this thread you will see that I am keeping them in Brazil and my information comes first hand from working with them in the field. http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2705585596/


 Sorry JBG, but I don't need to use pesticide to kill AHB, I split and requeened the colony I had whose nature appeared to be AHB, but soap and water will work fine, but you are right If need be raid wasp and hornet spray will do wonders, or just a cup of gasoline.

You might also read Thomas' post #62, also from personal experience, and is more in tuned to what the generally accepted experience with these bees than yours. I won't give you my experience as I am sure that since ARS research group must be liars, then surely you would accept my personal experiences either.

I will tell you this, based upon my personal experiences, I will not tolerate anything that resembles AHB. Also, regardless of what the law states, I have to much love for my fellow man to subject them to the risks of AHB.


----------



## DRUR

*Re: Africanized Bees in Honduras*



JBG said:


> My WI bee guru tells me that it is not particularly hard for any disturbed bee colony to kill a horse as they start to hyperventilate and having large mouth and nostrils inhale many bees and then it's over for them.


Well I have 3 horses, 2 registered qtr. horses and a Tenn. Walker. 2 are dark bays, and one a red. My yard is next to their pasture and when I work my bees they always come over to investigate and on several occasions have been stung and run off. None have died, but then again there certainly weren't sufficient numbers for them to inhale, but alas I dealt with the colony that showed AHB attitude, and gave them an attitude adjustment.


----------



## JBG

*Re: Africanized Bees in Honduras*

Well I am telling you for a fact that AHBs can easily kill your horses as you will also read from other posts in this thread and you would be wise to keep them away from any colony that is showing agression. Troll alert!!!


----------



## BEES4U

if you will notice by name it it called an african HYBRID. 
Right!.
I have read and seen geographical maps of Africa that stated the locations of seven, 7, honeybee species.
Back in the late 60's and early 70's beekeepers coine a new term called disappearing. They would get packages, dump them out, fill the inside feeders and check them later to find out that the bees were gone!
Now, I am talking about 2nd and 3rd generation beekeepers. The location of the bees were in Canada.
Here is what the researchers found out out about the problem:
The African stock is phototropic and will fly even when there is snow on the ground.
European bees are thermotropic and will fly when the temperature is about 55 degrees F.
Try and locate some ABJ publications of that era and you will find a lot of information.
We got reports of seasoned beekeepers being driven back into their truck for safety and later they counted hundes of stingers in the black gasket that seals in the windshield.
That's all for now,
Ernie


----------



## DRUR

*Re: Africanized Bees in Honduras*



Tomas said:


> Africanized bees can be managed. They can make a decent amount of honey. Disease problems are not real common--but swarming is. Sometimes they can be pretty docile while at other times they get down right ornery.
> Tom


Tom, I also want to thank you for your very candid and informative post. Can you also share with us what would be considered a decent amount of honey from the average AHB colony. Thanks


----------



## DRUR

*Re: Africanized Bees in Honduras*



JBG said:


> Well I am telling you for a fact that AHBs can easily kill your horses as you will also read from other posts in this thread and you would be wise to keep them away from any colony that is showing agression. Troll alert!!!


JBG, you are talking to the choir here. I agree AHB colonies are to dangerous to livestock and people to keep such bees here and I don't believe the American people will tolerate their aggresive nature, I know that I won't. There is no doubt that the colony that I had that seemed, to me at least, to have been africanized could kill a horse. My point was that our european stock generally does not react in such a manner as to be this risky, but thanks for your concern. I used proper management to deal with my problem inch: and requeen, and now I don't have a problem.


----------



## luvin honey

Tomas--Thank you for such an informative post. As a Wisconsinite with family from South America (I know Honduras is central), it is especially interesting for me to hear about beekeeping in both regions.


----------



## BruinnieBear

JBG said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2705585596/


Very interesting pix!

My eyes are probably playing tricks, but the hives seem to be levitating in the group photos.

What am I missing?

BB


----------



## Chick

I helped a friend move his hives, and they had Africanized bees in them. Not too bad, until we went to opening the entrances. They literally covered me up. I must have had 10,000 bees on me. Then the chased me for about 200 yards until my buddy pulled up beside me in his truck and I jumped in the back, and he took off, with me brushing them off. When he stopped, I got inside the truck with the A/C. The ones that were left, got off me and went straight to the windows. I was lucky that I only had about 30 hits through the cloths. There were more that didn't really get in me, just itched a little.


----------



## JBG

BruinnieBear said:


> My eyes are probably playing tricks, but the hives seem to be levitating in the group photos.
> 
> What am I missing?
> BB


We put them on a center post and keep them spaced out and separated from other colonies. Single hive stands are the norm for AHB keeping.

K. Delaplane from Univ of GA has an excellent artictle covering AHBs with a 
a good photo of an AHB yard.

http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubcd/B1290.htm


----------



## BruinnieBear

JBG said:


> http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubcd/B1290.htm


Thanks for the intro education!

From the article ... "Beekeepers may need to re-think the practice of combining several hives on a pallet because the vibration from working one hive disturbs them all. For this reason, beekeepers in Latin America have switched to single hive stands."

This discussion has given me a new appreciation for the challenges some face in having to work this trait. With all the commercial traffic from the South, IYO, is a semblence of these traits inevitable in the local breeder stock? As Tomas mentioned, it may be too much of a liability for small, residential hobbyists to continue.

Don't read too much hysteria into this, but one of the reasons I like living here is that the cold winters keep alot of the warm climate "nasties" at bay. I'd sure miss my gentle Carmies.

BB


----------



## JBG

BruinnieBear said:


> Thanks for the intro education!
> 
> With all the commercial traffic from the South, IYO, is a semblence of these traits inevitable in the local breeder stock? As Tomas mentioned, it may be too much of a liability for small, residential hobbyists to continue.
> 
> BB


Indeed, in Brazil hobbyist beekeeping does exist to a small extent but it is a much more serious affair and confined to regions where you are not in any kind of close proximity to homes, farm animals, etc. Urban beekeeping like what takes place in Chicago on the Michigan Av. rooftops or the White House as well, does not exist there that I know of. The really interesting places in South America are of course Argentina and Uruguay. Argentina is a global apiculture power more so than the US I think as far as honey exports go and the northwestern provinces which are much like parts of the US southwest I think are almost entirely AHB keeping. Uruguay is a mixed story and Chile none reported at least because the Andes are a very effective wall. 
As far as the southern US this can easily get very political in a big hurry. Someone like Delaplane at the Univ of GA is telling you the truth but he is not telling you all the truth like many very smart people. When I see that USDA map what I have are big questions about lack of accurate reporting and bias to not report all the facts given the size of the business in the south. But then Lake Geneva WI where I am now is pretty far north of the Mason-Dixon.

Regardless what I think everybody can agree on is that basic bee research is shockingly underfunded in the US given its importance. A prime example is the lack of any kind of rapid field id test kit for AHBs. I would think there is enough DNA tech in the US to make a kit like this since one of the big problems is that even bee experts have a hard time making a visual id.


----------



## riverattachment

I will just echo the early posts on this thread and the post from Tomas. AHB really are that bad. I have kept bees here in Los Angeles for about 5 years starting with a wild swarm. My hives were always hot, but manageable. This year all my hives turned into full AHB behavior. As they built up in the spring they got progressively more aggressive. They stung the neighbors, stung the postman, stung my wife, and of course stung me. When I would be working outside, the bees would tap you once. Second "tap" was a sting around your eyes - and they were really fast! I had to move my hives out to a remote location and requeen them. I had to destroy some too. When I managed those AHB hives they would behave as Tomas described. You had to be slow and deliberate, and even with a lot of smoke they would be crazy. Even after I went back into the house they would continue to bang on the kitchen window for an hour trying to attack me through the glass. Bottom line is that urban beekeepers cannot keep full AHB colonies. It is just too much hassle and too dangerous for the neighbors. Most all the swarms showing up this year are fully aggressive AHB as well. 

You don't need a DNA test to know if you have AHB. If you aren't sure, then they are not AHB. Maybe some suspect hives may contain bees from an EHB mother and AHB drones. But, if you have full AHB bees you would know it. No doubt!

My sense is that agribusiness will continue to use AHB, but sideline and hobby beekeepers will need to get mated queens from suppliers that do not have the aggressive AHB attributes. Queen producers in the south will need to go to artificially inseminated queens like Glenn Apiaries does.


----------



## JBG

Agree in general. But with a fast test you could at least have some logical guide so that destroying swams does not get to be the norm. Everyone just expects that a feral swarm is exhibiting killer bee behavior.. KILL THEM! Even beeks on this group who should know better show that attitude. Also, they are not always so hyper agressive. Temp, altitude, humidity, food situation, etc all enter into it.


----------



## DRUR

Ran across some interesting information from this site here:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archiv...4/bees0304.htm

This is an interesting quote from this study which I would like to delve into here:
"Many experts expected that the farther from a tropical climate AHBs spread, the more they would interbreed with EHBs. But it appears that interbreeding is a transient condition in the United States, according to ARS entomologist Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman. She is research leader at the Carl Hayden Bee Research Center in Tucson, Arizona, and ARS national coordinator for AHB research."

My understanding of this 'transient' condition of inbreeding with ehb is that eventually ahb will eventually displace the ehb in areas where the ahb are established if proper management techniques are not implemented. Apparently there is a false belief that ehb will somehow reduce the aggressiveness of ahb, but this appears to not be the case, as this will only happen on a transient basis. However, there is a saving grace to this, that being that since the ahb do not cluster, the further north they go, the harder time they will have in establishing feral populations. Let's discuss this issue a little if we could.


----------



## beyondthesidewalks

DRUR said:


> My understanding of this 'transient' condition of inbreeding with ehb is that eventually ahb will eventually displace the ehb in areas where the ahb are established if proper management techniques are not implemented. Apparently there is a false belief that ehb will somehow reduce the aggressiveness of ahb, but this appears to not be the case, as this will only happen on a transient basis.


Hello, Dan. If this is true than Texas is still in a transient status. I catch feral bees in my area that are definitely not AHB. I also catch bees that are black and of German descent but much more agressive. I think that many of these are confused with AHB. I've also caught a few hot bees but I managed them and they're not hot anymore. (My management technique is to destroy the queen and let them raise a new one.) They may have been AHB or descendents of some bees that I had back in the 90s that originally came from Alabama. The bees from Alabama were the hottest bees I have ever encountered, hotter than anything I've experienced since AHB have struck in my county. Is there any indication of how long this "transient" status will last?

I admit that I'm not sure I buy it. I'm very skeptical of any AHB sensationalism. I'm not in denial. I live in a county that our government says has been taken over by AHB yet I still keep bees and I'm not experiencing anything like people are describing as AHB. I may be wrong but I think that AHB can and will be managed. If I am wrong I will buy thicker bee suits, bigger smokers and continue to keep bees. As my handle suggests, I live in a very rural area of a very rural county. My biggest fear (bigger than AHB!) is that the government will declare that all honeybees in our "confirmed" AHB counties will have to be destroyed. That would be a shame but I can imagine, especially, our current regime trying to push something like that on us.


----------



## DRUR

beyondthesidewalks said:


> If this is true than Texas is still in a transient status. I catch feral bees in my area that are definitely not AHB. I also catch bees that are black and of German descent but much more agressive. I think that many of these are confused with AHB. I've also caught a few hot bees but I managed them and they're not hot anymore.
> 
> Is there any indication of how long this "transient" status will last?
> 
> I admit that I'm not sure I buy it. I'm very skeptical of any AHB sensationalism. I'm not in denial. I live in a county that our government says has been taken over by AHB yet I still keep bees and I'm not experiencing anything like people are describing as AHB.
> 
> I may be wrong but I think that AHB can and will be managed.
> 
> My biggest fear (bigger than AHB!) is that the government will declare that all honeybees in our "confirmed" AHB counties will have to be destroyed. That would be a shame but I can imagine, especially, our current regime trying to push something like that on us.


First: Texas is a very large state, having the southern most point in the continental U.S. save for Florida Keyes, Areas further west than Denver and as far East as Des Moines Iowa, and within 40 miles of Kansas border. 

The demarcation line for AHb runs through Houston, Austin, and San Antonio (this should not change). During the summer Ahb are capable of migrating 300+ miles, north of this line, but during normal winters these bees would die out because they don't cluster and therefore can't survive the winters. You are about as far north as we are, and we are not on the list for Ahb. So that being said, although you may have incidences of AHB, I doubt that they would ever become established to move from the transient status; thereby eventually destroying ehb influence. Also your area; although remote and rural, has much commercial beekeeping (or at least used to). 
Another consideration in this study is that AHB are not able to spread in areas which have 50+ inches of rain per year which is spread equally throughout the year. This is the case for our area but not for areas which only receive monsoonial rains. This is why AHB have not become established in our, or areas east of us.

Second: Logically speaking the length of transient status would vary due to environmental conditions as previously mentioned. I wouldn't think that it would ever end in your area.

Third: I doubt that your area has been taken over but rather has had an incident where ahb have been confirmed. This could be because of migration followed by mild winters or migration other than natural swarming, such as hitching rides on trucks, autos, trains, etc.

Fourth: I have had one purchased colony (from location south of me) which was Africanized. When you have it you know it. There is no comparison to the aggression. My gloves were covered (solid black with bees), and so was my veil. There has been some sensationalism in the movies but don't doubt the dangers. Also, they will never be tolerated here in the USA because of liability from a legal standpoint. Just isn't going to happen.

Fifth: Yep, me to for control purposes.

Familiar with your area, spent from 1963 through about 1971 in Bellmead and currently have a brother in the boonies outside of Leroy/Mt. Calm area


----------



## JBG

Argentina has a longer exposure to AHB than the US and has big areas of similar terrain to the southwest US. Buenos Aires province is a world class honey exporter and they have done some large Mitochondiral dna studies to address these concerns about the EHB / AHB interaction and to get definitive answers.

I found it interesting they can id haplotypes to the geographic origins of Iberia and North Africa for example which would go back to the 1800s Spanish settlements. I think the conclusions are that the EHB stock has not been taken over or even mixed in most of the province and its a patchy mix to the north and west where it is hotter. 

http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/20080611_115

I've got a copy of the pdf if you want it emailed. I don't know if they have done anything similar for TX, GA or FL.

Oh, one interesting thing is about the comparison for Buenos Aires province. The province is huge, about 1/2 of TX which I was surp. to find. I show 307,571 km2 for BA prov.
and 696,000 for TX. So this BA study covers a giant honey production area with very pro-active beekeepers as far as AHB is concerned. 
I think BA province then represents a best case vs. AHB because of the relative density of the beeks and EHB colonies. TX I have to think would be much more difficult,
bigger, much lower beek and EHB density, larger feral environment.


----------



## Beaver Dam

I picked up a hive that had taken residence in a gas grill. The owner said the were pretty gental. I went to pick them up, and when I got 20 feet away they were on me big time. I suited up fully. Put the whole gas grill in the back of my truck..When I got them back to the house, I had to suit up in my truck. Hundreds of bees poundind my whole body. stung thru suit can't count the numbers. Hundreds of stingers on my gloves. 
I put them behind my shop. Good thing it was on a Friday evening. Sat could not even be in the front of my shop. One bee headbutting, then 3, then 8, then 20. These bees followed me 20 yards before they got disinterested and 10 minuits of waiting.
I didn't go back till Tuesday. Peeked around the corner of the building and pow 3 hit me on my forehead area. I run away with my tail tucked and desided to distroy them that night.
Covered the whole gas grill that night with a cloth cover covered that with a plastic tarp and placed a gasoline motor with a exahst extension under the covers and started the motor. Good redense. If I get any more African bees, they two will be distroyed. Don't want them breading around here.
I can deal with agressive hives but not them. You,ll know if they are African.


----------



## JBG

One thing I recall reading about when they first appeared in Argentina is that the first waves came in as real bad-a,,es but after they got established they calmed down somewhat. I can't recall the article but I think that is a typical 
experience but not due to interbreeding it seems. In Brazil the apiary I took over started by trying EHBs before AHB spread there. EHBs were a consistent failure, never really got established so they were happy to get a viable income source when AHBs showed up, which is the story all thru South and Central America. Given that there is no alternative, Brazil has turned the situation into a big marketing advantage in the production of fully organic apiary products.
You have beekeepers who can't afford and don't need apiary treatments and
who are located in areas that are still quite wild or protected. This is a nice example... http://www.cearapi.com.br/
I have a pdf (or maybe I can find the link) where one of the coop beeks there talks about how they collected honey before
they got organized. It was right out of the stone age using fire and taking stings. The way he phrased it in Portuguese is very poetic, something like
"it was a time of fire and pain" 
Let me seee.....


----------



## DRUR

For some reason the ARS site (shown in my post #79 herein) is not accessable anylonger. There were some interesting observations in this research. I wish now that I had copied the paper and saved it but I did not, but will share with you some of may recollections.

First: This paper discussed the transient nature of of Ahb crossed with Ehb. 

Temporarily there is a crossing and thereby reduction of the Aggressiveness of AHB. 

However, it was found that Ahb drones flew farther, and were more aggressive in breeding virgin queens. Also Ahb colonies were constantly in a swarm mode and therefore always had large populations of drones. 

Ahb queens emerged a day earlier than European queens and therefore destroyed the late emerging european queen cells. 

Hence the reason for the transient nature of crosses between ehb/ahb. Eventually in ahb established areas the european (unmanaged) populations are eliminated.

Second: Ahb have not spread throughout the southern tier of States as first anticipated. It was found that areas that had 50+ inches of rain per year, when the rain was evenly distributed throughout different seasons prevented the spread of Ahb. However, areas with 50+ inches of rain per year in monsoonial weather patterns (rain only in the moonsoon period) did not restrict the spread of Ahb.

Hence, Ahb are better estabilished in Arizona, New Mexico, and west Texas. This is probably why my county is not on the list of AHB.

Now other observations from other studies. 

Ahb are able to migrate about 300 miles per year with certain weather patterns (see above and observations following). The first Ahb in the U.S. were found in 1990 in Hildago county Texas. That was 20 years ago and hence all areas where Ahb can become established has already happened. 20x300=6,000 miles.

A distinction must be made between an 'established' population, one where ahb are predominant and one where they can be found on occassion. Ahb do not cluster, nor keep large winter stores of honey, hence cold weather destroys a colony. 

The demarcation line for survival of the Ahb line runs through (in Texas) Houston, Austin, and San Antonio. But consideration must be given to the fact that Ahb can migrate 300 miles in a year with conducive weather patterns. Consideration must also be given to those years when there is mild winters and the Ahb are not winter killed, thereby allowing migration to extend beyond the 300 mile demarcation line; although this would only be temporarily.

Also, Ahb swarms also hitch a ride on trucks, trains, and even automobiles so they can be spread over large areas, however, they still would not become 'established'.


----------



## Walt B

DRUR,

Thanks for the info. I think this may be the new location for the article you mention:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar04/bees0304.htm

It looks the same, but it worked for me. If this doesn't work, a search on their home page for "bees0304" will get you there.

Walt


----------



## JBG

One thing the US does not have that is a big factor in South America is the Andes mountain range which has naturally blocked AHB from Chile. They can't overcome either altitude or cold. Uruguay is a mixed bag but there are some
really interesting specialty beeks there who keep the lineage of some of the old Spanish "criollo" (I think) bees. I think they have remained AHB free but these are exceptionally skilled guys in micro-climates. High value honey too.

Question, I should be able to figure this out but i'm lazy, where is that 50'' rain area or line? That is a big big rain ammount. Generally the AHBs are better adapted to prolonged rainy conditions but this is different than monsoonal deluges.


----------



## DRUR

Walt B said:


> DRUR,
> 
> Thanks for the info. I think this may be the new location for the article you mention:
> http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar04/bees0304.htm
> Walt


Yes, this is it Walt, thanks for sharing.


----------



## JBG

I like this statement from the ARS article, 
"
And everyone expected AHBs to spread across the southernmost tier of states. But, as of January 2004, AHBs have been found only in southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and Texas, as well as Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands." 

This is a really good article, but that "only" is a bit ironic. Now we got FL and
maybe GA on the map that sure is a heck of a big part of the south. Oh yes isn't Utah a bit of a surprize given that it gets pretty cold in the south of UT.


----------



## DRUR

JBG said:


> Question, I should be able to figure this out but i'm lazy, where is that 50'' rain area or line?
> 
> That is a big big rain ammount.
> 
> Generally the AHBs are better adapted to prolonged rainy conditions but this is different than monsoonal deluges.


JBG look on a map of Paris Texas In Northeast Texas, then find Huntsville, Texas, just north of Houston on I-45. Draw a north to south line through these cities and everything east of this would probably fit into that category.

Well, maybe for some areas but not for here. I remember one year back during the 80s when we received 120" of rain in one year, now that seemed like a lot. That was the year I was bitten on my achilles' tendon by a cottonmouth.

No, it is not the monsoonal deluges which serves as a barrier, but rather and even distribution of the 55" throughout the year.


----------



## Jerry Kinder

*My experience with Suspected AHB’s*

I got a swarm earlier this summer and combined them with a very week queenless hive that I had been nursing along. After a couple weeks the bees got very defensive of that part of the yard (“I’m a back yard keeper in southern California). I got stung twice and my daughter once, while watching them or working in the yard. I had been using sugar water to work my other hive but this one the sweet water didn’t work. When I tried smoke the bees went nuts. They filled the air in a cloud of bees and started running around like bees on speed. I though “wow, this is weird” then I heard a taping sound and looked down at the spray bottle and they were attacking the spray pump-handle…it was black plastic and they were going nuts attack it. Dive bombing it, crawling all over it with stingers out and thrusting, the whole nine yards. That was enough for me, I requeened with an Italian from up north (above the dreaded AHB line) and now ~month and a half later they are doing fine, just like my other hive. They keep their heads down when the smoker is lit and no more stings. I don’t know if the hive behavior was due to a “bad” queen or that she laying AHB’s (I didn’t send any in to the county to be checked), but it sure made a difference (and the bad experience convinced me to get a bee suit and gauntlet gloves). For the short time I had them in that state, I don’t see any difference in the production but while the old queen was in place the bees were noticeably smaller and ran around really fast when compared to their Italian sisters in my other hive.


----------



## DRUR

JBG said:


> I like this statement from the ARS article,
> "
> And everyone expected AHBs to spread across the southernmost tier of states. But, as of January 2004, AHBs have been found only in southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and Texas, as well as Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands."
> 
> This is a really good article, but that "only" is a bit ironic. Now we got FL and
> maybe GA on the map that sure is a heck of a big part of the south. Oh yes isn't Utah a bit of a surprize given that it gets pretty cold in the south of UT.


This 2004 states I quote:
"But, as of January 2004, AHBs have been found only in southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and Texas, as well as Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands.

Southern Florida would be hospitable to the bees given its temperature and rainfall,"

Now of course there are 'established' populations in Southern Florida as anticipated. But there is a difference between 'established' populations and some ahb colonies. The progression maps show incidences and not 'establishment'. An incidence can occur because a swarm has caught a ride on various means of conveyance, or invaded by northern migration, only to be killed during wintertime. These other states are not 'established' populations. The farther from the demarcation line (north) the easier to control, and less stringent management procedures are required. Also, the rain barrier may be broken in drier years, but no establishment would occur.


----------



## JBG

How about Cuba? Jamaica? ,,,


----------



## NeilV

That 2004 information is both wrong and outdated. This shows the current border of AHB spread in Oklahoma, which is really the border of the spread for the central part of the country:

http://www.ok.gov/~okag/forms/cps/ahb-map.pdf

I have found some AHB maps that show no AHB confirmed in north Texas. That is only because they stopped monitoring for them. They are there, and they did not jump from central TX to southern OK. 

The counties in Oklahoma that are to the north seem to have occassional sightings so far. However, some of the counties in the middle of Oklahoma have established populations that seem to be doing well. 

I did not get them tested, but I believe that I had some AHB genes in one of my hives last year. They were some nasty bugs. I had to tie a shirt around my neck to keep them from burrowing into my veil. If that were the norm, I would have to abandon urban beekeeping due to safety issues. Fortunately, there are always nice Cordovan queens, which is what I probably will go to exclusively in time. That way, I can look at a hive from outside and feel comfortable that they are nice, yellow bees.

One problem with AHB hives is that they are really hard to requeen with EHB stock. It may be just as easy to kill them all and start with new bees and a new queen. 

Dewey Caron and Jerry Hayes spoke to our local bee club last spring. They are both AHB experts. The current predictions, based on weather and what happened going southwards in South America, is that AHB could spread over most of Kansas and maybe even into Nebraska in the plains states. 

Neil


----------



## JBG

In Argentina I think they made it as far south as Rio ***** province which does have a decent winter. I'm not sure of that and not knowing where in a big area like that does not help too much. I would be surprized if they can make it thru the winter anywhere in Kansas or Nebraska. You really have to look at Buenos Aires province I think to get some ideas. The caveat is that I don't think the US has a state with the kind of absolute colony and beek numbers and density considering that the province ranks in the top five in world export for honey.


----------



## JBG

DRUR said:


> JBG look on a map of Paris Texas In Northeast Texas, then find Huntsville, Texas, just north of Houston on I-45. Draw a north to south line through these cities and everything east of this would probably fit into that category.


Wow, I am getting an education in Texas geography. Way more diverse and complicated than I thought. In my mind is the old LBJ or GWB ranch or where they filmed "No Country For Old Men" which is a trendy area now.


----------



## DRUR

NeilV said:


> That 2004 information is both wrong and outdated. This shows the current border of AHB spread in Oklahoma, which is really the border of the spread for the central part of the country:
> 
> http://www.ok.gov/~okag/forms/cps/ahb-map.pdf Neil


Neil: 

First lets get some facts straight Neil according to all research which I know of, if, however, there has been research which show otherwise, please give us the place where we can examine the research. 
1. AHBs do not cluster and therefore do not survive harsh winters.

2. AHBs move to locations without natural swarm expansion, by hitching rides on trains, trucks and autos. This could (but maybe not) account for your so-called jumping.

3. The ARS map shows areas in Texas and Okl. And other states which showed new AHB confirmations in 2009, so for you to say that these are no longer being monitored in Texas is just not correct. Last Year I saw bee bags in Davy Crocket National Forest just south of Weches.

4. The ARS map and Oklahoma maps on report confirmed cases of bees but not necessarily where the bees are established. A confirmed colony (even if a random confirmation) would qualify, but source of these bees are unknown. In other words they could have hitched a ride on car or truck and in fact there may no longer be any AHB currently in that area. Once they have been confirmed they are not removed from the map when the bees are removed from the area.

5. The Oklahoma maps a first confirmation of bees in 2009 for a county that the surrounding counties had confirmations in 2004 (northwest), 2008 (north), 2006 (northeast), 2007 (east), 2004 (south). This does not show a normal swarm pattern migration. 

Neil: There are conclusory allegations, which are conclusions based upon a mere allegation (these are totally worthless); and there are conclusions supported by interpreted facts (which may or may not be viable depending upon the interpretation). Statements made by you are not supported by facts.

>That 2004 information is both wrong and outdated.<

Conclusory allegation.

> This shows the current border of AHB spread in Oklahoma, which is really the border of the spread for the central part of the country<

Conclusory allegation

>The counties in Oklahoma that are to the north seem to have occassional sightings so far. However, some of the counties in the middle of Oklahoma have established populations that seem to be doing well.<

Conclusory allegation

>I have found some AHB maps that show no AHB confirmed in north Texas. That is only because they stopped monitoring for them. They are there, and they did not jump from central TX to southern OK<

Conclusory allegation

> Dewey Caron and Jerry Hayes spoke to our local bee club last spring. They are both AHB experts<

Conclusory allegation

> The current predictions, based on weather and what happened going southwards in South America, is that AHB could spread over most of Kansas and maybe even into Nebraska in the plains states.<

Conclusory allegation

"nothing but the facts" Jack Webb, Dragnet


----------



## JBG

Here is a reason to like wikipedia.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragnet_(series)

"Just the facts, ma'am"

While "Just the facts, ma'am" has come to be known as Dragnet's catchphrase, it was never actually uttered by Joe Friday; the closest he came were, "All we want are the facts, ma'am" and "All we know are the facts, ma'am". "Just the facts, ma'am" comes from the Stan Freberg parody St. George and the Dragonet.
........
I could swear I did hear Joe Friday say "Just the facts, ma'am" in several episodes but the Wiki obsessive gets the nod.


----------



## TwT

I have a friend in florida that does pollination and he has worked his hives with just a veil, he had hives tested and found out that most of his hives had AHB genes but working them he could tell because they were calm, he re queened all his hives since because he is in some kind of a anti AHB thing they have going in that state.

Now on the rain and cold barrier, I don't believe this will last because the AHB hives breed with feral hives and they will get the traits needed to survive in those area's, why wouldn't they? I have always heard that the AHB in the states are crossed with European bee's and the main trait that tells you they are AHB is the agressiveness, with bee's being trucked and catching rides from confirmed AHB states it is just a matter of time before they can survive anywhere I think. I watch a show on AHB the other night and it showed the same locations as this map http://www.stingshield.com/all-us.htm and you can see that there is even a location in northern Alabama now, so I think it is just a matter of time so we best get ready for them.


----------



## DRUR

JBG said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragnet_(series)
> 
> "Just the facts, ma'am"


I humbly stand corrected, thanks JBG, just to let everyone know that I am human also, hmmm, I guess my statement was just a conclusory allegation unsupported by "nothing but the facts mam", Laughter is great medicine and I just got a dose. Thanks JBG.


----------



## DRUR

In the 2004 study, the researchers found that when laying drone eggs, the hybrid AHB/EHB were more inclined to lay AHB drones/queens even when the queens were AI'd with equal amounds of AHB/EHB semen. They had no logical reason for this, but rather just noted the anomaly.

I think the most likely reason (conclusory allegation) for random appearances of AHB in northern states would be from queens raised or bred in any area where AHB drones might be present, and then any resulting supercedure could result in AHB queens. 

Also, another consideration is, that suppose you have a queen that has been bred to a AHB drone, then that colony, which would cluster, could preserve the AHB genetic to overwinter, and then produce AHB queens the next fall. Another conclusory allegation, based upon logic only. However, I don't think (conclusory allegation), AHB would ever become 'established' as the predominant genetic bee line in an area where the winters require clustering for survival.

With regard to the rain barrier, please read my observation in my post #56, 1st paragraph.


----------



## JBG

TwT said:


> http://www.stingshield.com/all-us.htm


Keep in mind the bias of the stingshield site to overstate as they are selling a product for EMS persons vs. AHB mostly. I bought a couple to take to Brazil and keep a few around. Would have bought more but the price is absurdly high.


----------



## gulfbreeze

Not only are they that bad, they are worse. I live in rual San Patricio County. Two years ago I hired a guy to clear some of the brush off my property and in short order he came running out swatting at something screaming bees bees! Well I did not know anything about bees really and suspected that they may be AHB. He had jumped off his dozer, engine running and booked it out of there. I got in the phonebook and began calling around to see if there was someone who could come out and find where hive was. I found a guy, but he wanted $300 to come out. I thought that was just outrageious, so we managed to get the dozer shut down and I got on ebay and found a full bee suit. I ordered it and it came within a few days. I found the hive in an abandoned steam boiler that had about 4 three quarter inch threaded ports in it. The bees were just incredably mean. I would get within about 6 - 8 feet from them and they would attack! And follow me for hundreds of yards without giving up. They would slam into me and sting my leather gloves and head gear. My gloves were covered with stingers and venom. I am not exagerating at all. I was so facinated by them. Just amazed. I plugged the holes with expanding foam. No more bee problem. 

I figured, well I have a bee suit, maybe I should get a hive of good bees. I found David Burns, Long Lane Honey Bees, web site offering bee lessons. I now have three hives this year. I've been working these with only a veil, no gloves and short sleeve shirt. 

My advice about AHB is do not keep any. In Texas it is against the law to keep AHB. Check the statues. You may be held liable. They will go after the kids, pets, livestock and you. 

My 2 cents,
Mark
Lake City, Tx


----------



## JBG

How long ago was this? The experience has been that the first few waves 
are the worst then they settle down once they get established. If you were impressed by one colony then think about what happens when you get an 
AHB yard upset. They will all join in the attack in which case you just have to shut down and evacuate. Some days are just not possible to work them. Period.


----------



## NeilV

I think there may be some truth to the idea that, over time, even the pure AHB in South America have become more manageable, probably due to selective breeding. 

However, the main reason that the human-AHB situation improves is that people adapt. They get more careful about where they put managed hives, and people learn that a feral hive needs to be respected. 

There are still plenty of very aggressive bees all over south and central america. It's not like they suddenly get more gentle after the first year or two with no change in genetics.


----------



## NeilV

I have tried to find the map that Dewey Caron presented to our bee club last year that predicted that AHB could spread to Nebraska. I cannot find it on the internet. However, I did come across this article that includes a different AHB prediction map. This one shows the bees barely make it into Kansas. I hope this one is right:

http://www.utahcountybeekeepers.org/Other Files/AHB Press Release.pdf


----------



## beyondthesidewalks

All of these maps are flawed. My perception of them is that whoever is making them wants to show the progression of AHB through the US. In pursuit of this goal they show a county to be positive for AHB even though there was only one hive found and it was destroyed. The maps really need to show SUSTAINED presence of AHB.

My county, Navarro county in Texas, is shown to be positive for AHB. I've been keeping bees ever since they found AHB in our county and I've yet to run into AHB. If I did, they were just a mean hive and I dealt with it. Most people say that you'll know it when you experience it so I don't think I have yet. The casual reader of one of these maps would think that Navarro county is fully populated by AHB and that is just not the case.


----------



## DRUR

beyondthesidewalks said:


> All of these maps are flawed.
> 
> My perception of them is that whoever is making them wants to show the progression of AHB through the US.
> 
> In pursuit of this goal they show a county to be positive for AHB even though there was only one hive found and it was destroyed.
> 
> The maps really need to show SUSTAINED presence of AHB.


Dear beyondthesidewalks:
I think I agree with what you are trying to express? Let me just add my two cents worth, and two cents arent worth much anymore.

The maps are flawed not because of what they actually show, but because of our perception of what they show. The maps show a confirmed case of AHB. The flaw is that they don't show a theory on the source of the AHB.

I think we misinterpret the data given on these maps. As AHB become more established in the parts of the South and Southwest, I theorize there will be a greater chance of these bees hitching a ride on trains, trucks, and automobiles, spreading them to locations further north. However, at this time, with the current data available, I don't think they will become established outside of the habitat in which they can survive because of their tendency not to cluster.

I totally agree that the maps are misleading in that obviously most who see the maps interpret them as being established populations, when this simply is not true. My guess is that had I sent in a sample of my AHB colonies, then my county would have been listed as a AHB county, even though the source was known and dealt with.

I agree they show the counties to be positive even if the AHB was an anomoly for the area. Perhaps two maps should be presented. One showing confirmation of AHB, to elevate awareness of the problem, but another showing only sustainable populations. Thereby allowing beekeepers to adopt appropriate management techniques for those areas. These areas then should also have a higher designation of funds for monitoring the problem.

Thanks for the excellent observations beyondthesidewalks.


----------



## DRUR

NeilV said:


> I did come across this article that includes a different AHB prediction map. This one shows the bees barely make it into Kansas. I hope this one is right:
> 
> http://www.utahcountybeekeepers.org/Other Files/AHB Press Release.pdf


Thanks for the Map Neil, I especially like the NASA map which shows probablility of sustainable levels based upon environmental factors.


----------



## JBG

Same here thanks. Fascinating. I had no idea they had did NASA map like this. I don't see any citations for the group that put it together. Guess I could contact the UT expert Danielle Downey. I would like to see how the mapping would look for similar areas of South America. Maybe they have already done it. I would think it would predict an area like Buenos Aires province had high survivibilty but the reality is something different. Also, I think some of the statments re. EHB interbreeding are not "borne out" looking at the South American experience. 

Did anyone look at Deknow's quotes about Kerr in the Madison bee lab?
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=453482#post453482
This was all new to me and really interesting.


----------



## beyondthesidewalks

DRUR said:


> I especially like the NASA map which shows probablility of sustainable levels based upon environmental factors.


I agree with you, Danny. The NASA map indicates some of what you've been trying to get across. While the other maps show a steady progression of AHB through the country with probable expansion across the nation, the NASA map shows that they'll be somwhat confined to where they are now. I like that.


----------



## bnatural

Unless you buy into 'An Inconvenient Truth', in which case I'LL be dealing with them up here in New England in a few years.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Bill

p.s. I guess in all seriousness, if we really ARE entering into an overall global warming period, regardless of whether or not the cause is the activities of man or just a natural pattern, and if it DOES mean that most sections of the US become warmer and, possibly, drier (not all, up here in NE it is predicted we could become colder and wetter, because of wind pattern changes), then it COULD mean that AHB will be able to migrate farther north.

Not sure any of this really matters. The Brazilians have adapted fine to the new bees and I am sure we will, too, if necessary. From what I have been reading, many already have.


----------



## JBG

In places like Brazil or Central America there is no choice about AHB now.
As I posted earlier, hobby and sideliner beekeeping is a very different situation in those nations as well as how commercial works. Forget about backyard suburban or urban beekeeping for a start.


----------



## beyondthesidewalks

bnatural said:


> Unless you buy into 'An Inconvenient Truth', in which case I'LL be dealing with them up here in New England in a few years.


Oh great! Now we're going to season an already sensationalized and politically charged issue with another sensatinalized and even more politically charged issue.

The global warming crowd doesn't have much credibility at the moment. This year many places were colder than normal and their excuse for their being wrong is that the colder weather was because of global warming.:scratch:

The earth has gotten warmer in places. It's cooled in others. Ice cap has retreated in certain polar regions and advanced in others. The 1800s had a "mini" ice age. The earth changed long before man dominated. It will continue to change. Bees and beekeeping will continue to change. Let's keep it real.


----------



## JBG

Yes lets not mix global warming with this. AHB alone are worthy of several different threads. E.g. AHB keeping, AHB and organic products, AHBs in the US, etc.


----------



## gulfbreeze

JBG,

I was incorrect to say the bee suit came in a few days, if memory serves me, it was a few weeks. The AHB did settle down during the cold mornings and days, but otherwise remained very aggresive. I would walk toward their direction and when I got within a few yards they found me. 

The hive did get rolled around by the dozer, so they were very disturbed. I called the county and they sent a guy to check them out, and he came out of the brush running too! 

Like a previous post, when you got'em you know right away. 

For those interested: http://www.texasento.net/Brachygastra.htm

I also have a hive of Mexican honey wasps in a tree about the size of a basketball. Have you run across any of these before? Bees are not the only insect to produce honey. I thought about destroying them, but they don't seem to be much of a problem. A person can gather the honey from these, but in some places the honey is actually poisioned by the wasps from a variety posionous plant. 

I found them again while hand clearing the brush with a chain saw. I was about to cut the tree that they were in and noticed them. I am **** glad that I noticed them. I am sure I would have been stung head to toe because there were hundreds of them! Everything around here either bites, stings or sticks you!


----------



## Walt B

Gulfbreeze,

When I first moved to Texas 12 or so years ago, one of my co-workers told me, "Texas has at least 1 of each kind of bug ever made". I think he was correct. 

Walt


----------



## JBG

Wow, Mexican Honey Wasps....

I am getting an education about Texas. So that old standard quote about bees 
are the only insects to make food for humans is incorrect.


----------



## bnatural

Aw, you guys are no fun.

While I couldn't resist poking a stick at the sleeping bear, the climate issue, even if unresolved, does have some impact on the discussion. For example, the NASA map that shows projected advancement north (which I like, BTW), what data were used to create that map - historical weather data or projected weather data? It's like the zone hardiness maps I see posted around the internet for planting purposes. Some sites show the newer map, which moves most of the warmer zones farther north, but some still show the older map to be conservative.

To try to answer my own question, I googled around a bit. Excerpted from the Proceedings of the American Bee Research Conference, 2009: 
http://www.extension.org/pages/Proceedings_of_the_American_Bee_Research_Conference,_2009


"9.Esaias, W.E.k, R. Wolfek, C. Jarnevichl & T. Stohlgrenl - CHANGING NECTAR FLOWS, CLIMATE, AND AHB’S: NASA’S HONEYBEENET -.....
Trends in the phenology (seasonality) of nectar flows derived from volunteer scale hive records shows a high correlation to trends in satellite vegetation phenology in the Mid-Atlantic, both advancing by about *0.5 d/yr since the early 1980’s*......Distribution models based on the locations of the AHB, combined with climate GIS layers and seasonal satellite vegetation information provide better understanding of the suitable habitat of the AHB, and how it may change. Initial MaxEnt model results for the US using USDA county-wide data are consistent with current and some predicted ranges of the AHB and show significant improvement when annual bulk vegetation data are included. The runs show a negative relationship between the AHB habitat and fractional tree cover. However, their coarseness underscores the need for precise AHB location points (latitude-longitude). Preliminary runs using occurrence points supplied by officials and scientists from several states are encouraging but are potentially misleading until all presence states are included."

If I understand this correctly, one of the data inputs into the NASA map is the information provided to HoneyBeeNet (http://honeybeenet.gsfc.nasa.gov/) from people like, well, me. That's a scary thought.

For those, who can provide scale/weight data to HBN, but don't, the more data that is entered, the more useful (less 'misleading') the information will be.


Bill


----------



## Gene Weitzel

DRUR said:


> ......Also, another consideration is, that suppose you have a queen that has been bred to a AHB drone, then that colony, which would cluster, could preserve the AHB genetic to overwinter, and then produce AHB queens the next fall. Another conclusory allegation, based upon logic only. However, I don't think (conclusory allegation), AHB would ever become 'established' as the predominant genetic bee line in an area where the winters require clustering for survival.


I have done a good bit of study on AHB genetics. Your conclusions here don't appear to be quite accurate.

1. Unless a queen is of Apis m. scutellata matriline (mtDNA) she will not produce Africanized drones since drones are haploid and 100% of their genetic material comes from the Queen's DNA. EHB queens mated with AHB drones cannot produce queens with A. m. scutella mtDNA and when isolated in an area where the drones are predominately EHB, the colony eventually will pretty much return to EHB genetics. A small portion of Africanized genes will remain, but they are already present in the DNA of all feral and commercial bees in this country. Generally speaking AHB's with European matrilines (mtDNA) are not nearly as aggressive. You get the nuclear version when AHB queens with African matrilines are mated with drones produced by queens with the same matrilines. These bees will be much closer to the original A. m. scutellata. The biggest danger to managed hives in AHB territory are usurpation swarms with African matriline queens. These small swarms will attach themselves to the bottom of a hive and their workers will gradually invade the hive and kill the EHB queen, after which the rest of the hive will readily accept the AHB queen and within 6 weeks, the workers will be replaced with hyper aggressive AHB workers.

2. AHB can and will cluster, documented overwintered colonies of AHB (African matrilines) have been found as far north as Albuquerque, NM. I am not sure where you got the information that they don't cluster, but it is not correct. They survive quite well in the mountains around Tuscon, AZ where winter temperatures easily drop to levels that would kill them if they did not. I would suggest that their unsuitability for survival in more Northern areas is related more to their frequent swarming and absconding behaviors among other factors.


----------



## JBG

Where I am in Teresopolis Brazil at the 1200 meter level in the mountains regularly gets in the mid to low 30s at the coldest part of the winter and the AHBs survive just fine.


----------



## DRUR

Gene Weitzel said:


> I have done a good bit of study on AHB genetics. Your conclusions here don't appear to be quite accurate.
> 
> 1. EHB queens mated with AHB drones cannot produce queens with A. m. scutella mtDNA and when isolated in an area where the drones are predominately EHB, the colony eventually will pretty much return to EHB genetics.
> 2. AHB can and will cluster, documented overwintered colonies of AHB (African matrilines) have been found as far north as Albuquerque, NM. I am not sure where you got the information that they don't cluster, but it is not correct. They survive quite well in the mountains around Tuscon, AZ where winter temperatures easily drop to levels that would kill them if they did not.


http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar04/bees0304.htm

But the third factor is undeniably true: EHB queen bees mate disproportionately with African drones, resulting in rapid displacement of EHB genes in a colony. This happens because AHBs produce more drones per colony than EHBs, especially when queens are most likely to be mating, DeGrandi-Hoffman explains.

We also found that even when you inseminate a queen with a 50-50 mix of African drone semen and EHB semen, the queens preferentially use the African semen first to produce the next generation of workers and drones, sometimes at a ratio as high as 90 to 10," she says. "We don't know why this happens, but it's probably one of the strongest factors in AHBs replacing EHBs.

When an Africanized colony replaces its queen, she can have either African or European paternity. Virgin queens fathered by African drones emerge as much as a day earlier than European-patriline queens. This enables them to destroy rival queens that are still developing. African virgin queens are more successful fighters, too, which gives them a significant advantage if they encounter other virgin queens in the colony. DeGrandi-Hoffman and Schneider also found that workers perform more bouts of vibration-generating body movements on African queens before they emerge and during fighting, which may give the queens some sort of survival advantage.

http://www.tlch2o.com/courses/AfricanHoneyBee.pdf page 23 of 87

“Winter Survival
Since the AHB is tropical in nature, it may not be able to regulate its body temperature as
efficiently as the EHB. Studies indicate that the AHB does not form as efficient a cluster
during cold weather as the EHB.”

http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubcd/B1290.htm#Range 

Potential Range of Africanized Bees in the United States
As Africanized bees expand into temperate areas, their tropical adaptations are less advantageous. Cold weather seems to limit both their defensiveness and overwintering capacity. Africanized bees are more defensive in warm tropical regions and less so in cooler zones. In South America the bees do not overwinter south of 34 degrees S latitude, which corresponds roughly to Atlanta, Georgia. (Please note, however, that Africanized bees are north of this latitude in the American West.)
In areas where their ranges overlap, African- and European-derived bees interbreed, causing “hybrid zones” where bees share African and European traits. In Argentina, Africanized bees dominate in the northern semitropical regions but European bees dominate in the southern temperate areas; the area in between (ca. 32-34 degrees latitude) is a hybrid zone where bees have varying degrees of African or European traits. A similar pattern may occur in the United States, with African traits dominating in southern regions.

The above are quotes from the research papers which can be found at the web sites preceeding the quotes. However, this is exactly the information given to us Beekeepers during the late 70s and early 80s in anticipation of AHB arriving here at the anticipated time period of late 80s early 90s. This just isn't new stuff. Much research had previously been done in South America.

Gene, as far as I know I did not put the thumbs down on here, at least not purposely, forgive me of any negative implication.


----------



## bnatural

From the paper I cited earlier:

"The runs show a negative relationship between the AHB habitat and fractional tree cover." (Also reported as pretty rough data).

Meaning: more tree cover, less AHB.

Could this help explain why the AHB maps show faster expansion to the west than to the east? Or, is it just an indicator of another factor already stated regarding rainfall (i.e. consistent rain leads to more forest cover, leads to fewer AHB colonies)? Or is it more about temperature?

Bill


----------



## DRUR

bnatural said:


> From the paper I cited earlier:
> 
> "The runs show a negative relationship between the AHB habitat and fractional tree cover." (Also reported as pretty rough data).
> 
> Or is it more about temperature?
> 
> Bill


http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar04/bees0304.htm
"Why AHBs haven't progressed eastward into Louisiana—though they were expected there years ago—is a mystery. So ARS entomologist José D. Villa began looking at factors that might correlate with where AHBs have spread. It isn't just minimum winter temperature that limits AHB spread, as many believed, says Villa, who is in the ARS Honey Bee Breeding, Genetics, and Physiology Research Unit in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. 
What immediately jumped out at me was the correlation with rainfall, he says. Rainfall over 55 inches, distributed evenly throughout the year, is almost a complete barrier to AHB spread. 
Total annual rainfall alone isn't a barrier; AHBs have been found in areas of the Tropics with higher rainfall. But in areas with high rainfall distributed throughout the year, Villa's pattern of AHB spread fits perfectly. 
Villa is quick to point out that this is simply a mathematical correlation and not proof of cause and effect. But, he says, you do find that 55-inches-of-rainfall point right at the edge of where AHBs stopped moving east about 10 years ago. He's planning experiments that may uncover the behavioral or physiological mechanism that explains why."

Bill, we have hot humid temperatures here in East Texas, but so far in my county, and easterly adjacent counties there have been no AHB confirmations. We do however have extended periods of cold weather when temperatures will run between 20-25F and occassionally 15-25F. Once we even had -3F and temperatures didn't get above freezing for 2 weeks here, but this certainly was not the norm.


----------



## bnatural

That's really interesting. I looked up the North American Monsoon, a pattern with which folks in the Southwest are familiar, I'm sure. Here's a link to a pic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Monsoonmapb.JPG

It is a pretty nice correlation to the progression westward, and the lack of contiguous progression eastward. From my climatological googling (incomplete, for sure) it appears that places in Louisiana and Alabama have a more even rainfall, while Dade County, Florida has more monsoonal weather with heavy rain in one period and drier in another. So, maybe to your point, the AHB there is the result of 'hitching a ride' (queens, packages, back of a truck, whatever) and finding a hospitable climate. I don't know how mid-west weather maps to these patterns, but there the temps may become the limiting factor. All interesting stuff.

I am coming into this late, so I'm sorry if all of this has already been discussed to death.

Bill


----------



## JBG

DRUR said:


> In Argentina, Africanized bees dom...ion on this. Does Delaplane have a statement?


----------



## Gene Weitzel

DRUR said:


> ......
> Gene, as far as I know I did not put the thumbs down on here, at least not purposely, forgive me of any negative implication.


Danny, I hope my post was not taken as being testy, it was not intended in that manner. 

1. It did accomplish the goal for which it was intended, that is to get you to qualify your claim that AHB do not cluster. In fact they do, while your are correct in stating that some studies seem to indicate that they don't cluster as efficiently as EHB, they still do cluster and can survive cold weather in some areas. Your previous posts could have lead some to believe that they don't cluster at all. The main point I was trying to make is their inability to survive in the more northern areas is a result of a number of cold weather detrimental behavior characteristics and not just their less efficient clustering.

2. While it is true that EHB queens in areas saturated with AHB drones will mate predominately with AHB drones and it is also true that this will cause the colony's workers to show increasing AHB behaviors, EHB queens themselves will still produce EHB drones. They cannot pass on any genes to their drones from the drones with which they mate. Even when the queen is superseded the resulting offspring will inherit her mtDNA and produce EHB drones carrying a percentage of AHB genes, but they will still not be pure AHB drones. When you look at the studies being done, IMO, mtDNA seems to have emerged as the standard to determine the extent of Africanized presence in a particular geographic area. The only way for an EHB colony to become 100% Africanized is through usurpation by an AHB queen (African mtDNA). There have been several studies that seem to indicate that partially Africanized hybrid bees (with EHB mtDNA) actually are not very hardy and will eventually succumb to replacement by the fully Africanized bees (with African mtDNA) either by usurpation or by their inability to compete and dying out leaving a void that is filled by proliferation of the fully Africanized queens in the area. 

I do believe that a big part of why we don't see much for AHB in East and Southeast Texas is a result of the yearly influx of tens of thousands of EHB colonies overwintered in the area from the north. Also the latest studies done in our area that I have seen show that the AHB presence in areas absent the influence of managed hives only runs around 30%. That would seem to indicate to me that in the areas with the large managed hive influence, one could not conclude that AHB drones would dominate and in fact are probably a fairly small minority. I have been removing feral bees from all over South and Southeast Texas for the last five years to the tune of close to 100 colonies per season. Anecdotally, my experience seems to validate that assumption.

One other point, when folks look at the map showing the extent of Africanized counties in Texas and surrounding states, because the whole county is colored dark, IMO, it leaves the impression that AHB dominate those counties. This is absolutely incorrect and misleading. If any AHB are found in an aerial pitfall trap in that county then the whole county is colored in indicating their presence, this says nothing about their dominance. Many folks from up north look at these maps and are terrified and convinced that any queen breeder surrounded by dark colored counties must be producing AHB, when in fact, the AHB presence in the area may indeed be minuscule. Conversely it is also misleading when one looks at the map and sees a white county with one or more adjacent counties colored. It defies logic to believe that there is no AHB presence in that county as the bees certainly don't respect county lines.


----------



## Gene Weitzel

bnatural said:


> From the paper I cited earlier:
> 
> "The runs show a negative relationship between the AHB habitat and fractional tree cover." (Also reported as pretty rough data).
> 
> Meaning: more tree cover, less AHB.
> 
> Could this help explain why the AHB maps show faster expansion to the west than to the east? Or, is it just an indicator of another factor already stated regarding rainfall (i.e. consistent rain leads to more forest cover, leads to fewer AHB colonies)? Or is it more about temperature?
> 
> Bill


Bill, Texas A & M has done a couple of AHB studies in the wilderness (conservation preserves, etc.) areas in the Pineywoods of East Texas. Their conclusion was that they were able to establish a significant foothold in these areas due to the lack of suitable EHB cavities. AHB would readily inhabit the smaller cavities like woodpecker nests and other voids where EHB generally did not. The studies did not indicate a dominance of AHB had yet developed, but they did show that AHB could compete adequately in the area.


----------



## bnatural

Gene Weitzel said:


> Texas A & M has done a couple of AHB studies in the wilderness (conservation preserves, etc.) areas in the Pineywoods of East Texas......The studies did not indicate a dominance of AHB had yet developed, but they did show that AHB could compete adequately in the area.


So, even in areas with non-monsoonal rainfall and a higher percentage of tree cover, the AHB could (or have) become established, due in part to the lack of competition? Does that mean they are more adaptable then previously thought (at least by me after reading all these posts)?

Temperature, rainfall patterns, tree coverage, EHB density...it seems that some or all of these factors, and others I have not mentioned, can play a role in advancing or suppressing the spread of AHB. And that does not take into account any dilution effect as a result of all the crossbreeding (also, from what I have read, supposed to be minimal, due to the dominant nature of the AHB genetics, but some must occur).

Do I have a clue, or am I way off base?

Bill


----------



## DRUR

Gene Weitzel said:


> Danny, I hope my post was not taken as being testy, it was not intended in that manner.
> 
> 1. It did accomplish the goal for which it was intended, that is to get you to qualify your claim that AHB do not cluster.
> 
> 2. While it is true that EHB queens in areas saturated with AHB drones will mate predominately with AHB drones and it is also true that this will cause the colony's workers to show increasing AHB behaviors, EHB queens themselves will still produce EHB drones.
> 
> I do believe that a big part of why we don't see much for AHB in East and Southeast Texas is a result of the yearly influx of tens of thousands of EHB colonies overwintered in the area from the north.
> 
> Conversely it is also misleading when one looks at the map and sees a white county with one or more adjacent counties colored. It defies logic to believe that there is no AHB presence in that county as the bees certainly don't respect county lines.


It wasnt testy, but if it was it wouldnt have mattered. This is a healthy discussion. My point was that I didnt intentionally put the thumbs down. If, however, your contribution IMO had been, so devoid of merit, and I was in a bad mood, I would not have hesitated to express my feelings with a thumbs down.

1. I did not qualify my claim concerning the clustering issue. My position on this issue was based upon what research during the 70s and 80s was on these bees. The article referred to just makes mention of the difference in clustering of AHB, and that this is the cause for the limitations on movement to colder climates. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find the studies to support these statements, but obviously in most all references to the expansion of range this is the issue. See also the NASA map. What is the reason for this northern expansion limitation? There lack of ability to adequately cluster. The degree of this limitation was not discussed. This was merely an answer to your statement in where you state:

_I am not sure where you got the information that they don't cluster, but it is not correct. They survive quite well in the mountains around Tuscon, AZ where winter temperatures easily drop to levels that would kill them if they did not._

To me this was obviously stating that clustering didn’t have an impact on the AHB expansion to northern climates. Go and read the context of this issue in my prior post #51. Northern expansion was being thrown around like eventually the whole country would be Africanized and this is nothing more than used bull fodder. This thread was getting outlandish, and I was attempting to bring it back to within some type of reasonable discussion of the issue. The issue is if the difference between AHB/EHB ability to cluster will limit northern expansion and it does.

2. First, let me say that your observation concerning EHB queens producing AHB drones was in error is correct. EHB queens will ONLY produce EHB drones. Nuff said. However, according to the research cited if these EHB queens are bred with any (doesnt have to be from a satuated area) AHB drones, then the study seems to show that the EHB queen will use the AHB semen first, thereby increasing the likelihood that upon supercedure, the offspring will be a hybrid AHB queen which then could produce AHB drones. 

I agree with your migration issue, but also believe it is attributable to proper management techniques.

> Conversely it is also misleading when one looks at the map and sees a white county with one or more adjacent counties colored. It defies logic to believe that there is no AHB presence in that county as the bees certainly don't respect county lines.<

True but I don’t see any AHB in Anderson/Houston/Cherokee counties, areas I have logged for over twenty years and I have cut down many trees (unknowingly) with feral bees. My only experience was with regard to a colony which I purchased from close to your area and moved up here, which had a superseded queen.


----------



## Gene Weitzel

Danny,

I guess I skimmed a little too much in reading the previous posts. Somehow I got the distinct impression that you were advocating that they did not cluster at all, my bad. In spite of how it appears, my statement was not intended to say that their clustering habits were not an issue in their northward expansion, but to demonstrate that they are capable of clustering well enough to survive in some surprisingly cold areas. I think we are on the same page about the bull fodder, however I still feel that their clustering abilities (or lack thereof) are being given a little too much weight without considering the other behavoirs that also tend to make their northern expansion less likely.

Genetically, a colony with EHB matrilines can never become completely Africanized. While hybrids between EHB and AHB are definitely more aggressive, they are pikers compared to the bees with the African matrilines. Most people tend to lump them all into the designation "AHB", but IMO a distinction should be made between the hybrids that have EHB matrilines and those that have African matrilines. The latter are by far the more dangerous bee, particularly when the queens are mated with drones from other African matriline queens. Then not only do you get the ultra aggressiveness but you also get all the other nasties that go along like pseudo-queens, thelytoky, usurpation swarms, etc, making a transition back to EHB a real nightmare (IMO, you may as well just destroy them and start over). The things I don't like about EHB matriline x AHB hybrids have more to do with their swarminess and tendency to abscond at the drop of a hat. IMO, they create more management headaches than the extra aggressiveness (unless we are talking about backyard hobbyists, then IMO, temperament is at the top of the list). That being said, the EHB matriline x AHB hybrids typically are much easier to re-queen than the African matriline bees making those colonies easier to salvage.


----------



## DRUR

Gene Weitzel said:


> Danny, Somehow I got the distinct impression that you were advocating that they did not cluster at all.
> 
> however I still feel that their clustering abilities (or lack thereof) are being given a little too much weight without considering the other behavoirs that also tend to make their northern expansion less likely.


Probably because of my inability to totally express my viewpoints. In prior posts, others had insunuated that the whole southern 1/3 to 1/2 of the U.S.A would be taken over by AHB. These considerations were made without regard to the 32-34 degree demarcation line. The inability of AHB (among other factors) to effectively cluster restricts the sustainability of population. To ignore this is like saying that eventually we will have AHB in the North Pole. Another post insunuated that the North would be supplying packages and queens to the rest of the country. Statements like this without considering the implications are ridiculous. 

As far as consideration of the weight of clustering it would depend upon what side you are on. Those advocating that the southern 1/3 to 1/2 of U.S.A. will be taken over by AHB give no consideration at all to the clustering issue and its ramifications. Our side hopefully considers clustering in conjuction with other issues such as the rain barrier and nectar production (and probably others that I am not familiar with, maybe you could enlighten us). Sometimes our neglect of the other issues (other than clustering) in trying to show the ridiculousness of proposed unlimited spread of AHB by those proponents becomes all to obvious.

The rest of your statements I am certainly in agreement with, and would only add that some believe that southern beekeepers fail to implement proper management procedures to control and reduce the AHB problem. This simply is not true. I personally think that those areas of the south where AHB populations are sustainable as opposed to occasional, have done great jobs beings their management procedures are more intense and demanding. I consider myself blessed that I will only have to deal with the problem on occasion as opposed to continuously.


----------



## NeilV

I think that a couple of things are pretty clear.

First, where AHB clearly are suited to the environment, they totally displace that EHB.

Second, lots of factors go into the analysis of whether AHB or EHB are more suited to a particular area. The two most important ones seem to bee temperature and whether there is frequent rainfall. I suspect that both of those are primarily connected to the swarming behavior of AHB. AHB swarm more, earlier in the year, in smaller groups of bees and end up in smaller/more exposed places. Cold and/or rainy weather would kill off AHB swarms much more than it would EHB swarms, which move in larger numbers and find bigger homes. 

I suspect that there are other factors, since there are other differences between the bees. AHB forage differently. They fly earlier and later in the day. They also do not do much dancing (if at all). Individual bees tend to go out on their own until they find a nectar/pollen source. That works better in tropical areas, where food sources are more diverse and spread out. I would think that EHB would have an advantage in more temparate areas, for that reason. 

The net effect is that in the southern U.S. the extent that AHB do well may be a question where the answer is more local than might be expected. For example, some folks in south Texas may not have EHB. However, I know some beekeepers much to the north (in east-central Oklahoma) who have an ongoing problem with AHB taking over their EHB hives. So far, they have not been found in Tulsa County, but they do seem to be doing well in southeastern Oklahoma. We have much more rain in Northeast Ok than in Southwest, Ok, and it does get cold in winter. 

It will be interesting to see how this develops. In the meantime, I'm very careful about swarms, I will use purchased queens in my hives, which are all near people.


----------



## Gene Weitzel

DRUR said:


> Our side hopefully considers clustering in conjuction with other issues such as the rain barrier and nectar production (and probably others that I am not familiar with, maybe you could enlighten us). Sometimes our neglect of the other issues (other than clustering) in trying to show the ridiculousness of proposed unlimited spread of AHB by those proponents becomes all to obvious.


Just a few things that in my opinion make them unsuitable for survival in more temperate areas:

1. They are not nearly as selective when it comes to nesting sites, and in fact will readily build open air hives. The sites they select tend to suit their needs in warmer climates but would be detrimental to their survival in colder climates. The one exception to this is that they do tend to get into small structural cavities where they are well inside the climate controlled living space.

2. They swarm 6-7 time per year well into the late summer and early fall. While this works well for them in warmer areas, this behavior in northern areas will all but lead to certain demise of many of the swarms and possibly the mother colony.

3. If they put up large stores during the main flow, they seem to continue to use resources raising large amounts of brood (both worker and drone) well into the fall and even into the winter months. Once again this works ok for warmer areas where there are flows off and on year round, but in northern areas it will lead to over utilization of their resources and they will starve out before winter is over.

4. In areas where resources are more scattered, they will readily abscond from place to place "chasing flows" so to speak and keeping their colony size "lean and mean". This strategy won't work well at all in colder areas since they never build up adequate resources to overwinter on.

Even without consideration of their less efficient clustering, they are clearly not well suited to colder areas, and, IMO there will definitely be a demarcation line that will develop. However, given that they are surviving in some surprisingly cold areas and struggling in some fairly warm areas, the path that the line takes, IMO will be a little more complex than just temperature isotherms or even a Lat/Long delineation. Clearly there are other factors besides their inefficient clustering ability involved. One point that should not be overlooked is that even their transient presence north of the line during the summer months will necessitate changes in management practices for beekeepers in those areas.


----------



## beyondthesidewalks

NeilV said:


> However, I know some beekeepers much to the north (in east-central Oklahoma) who have an ongoing problem with AHB taking over their EHB hives. So far, they have not been found in Tulsa County, but they do seem to be doing well in southeastern Oklahoma.


On what information are you basing this statement? If it's the maps we have been discussing I believe that your statement is false. The maps we have been discussing are showing a county positive for AHB even though only one hive was found and it was destroyed or died out on its own. These maps do not show SUSTAINED AHB survival trends, only the occurence of as few as one AHB positive hive. 

One AHB swarm could set up shop in a cardboard box on the back of a truck bound for Ohio this evening from southern Texas. This box could be unloaded with a forklift and because it was a small hive that just swarmed, not yet be very defensive. A week later when workers opened the box and discovered the bees we would have a county confirmed positive for AHB in Ohio. Even though the swarm would never survive and didn't throw any other swarms that could survive the winter, the criterion for these maps would be met. It could happen that easily. Then the press and goverment would take that opportunity to sensationalize it on the evening news. This is not all that far-fetched.

What ever happened to the African stock imported to the US in the 1800s and as late as the 1950s with the approval of or by our gov't? Where did those bees go? Were they all exterminated? Nobody seems to be asking or answering these questions.

I have traveled throughout South America on business and there are not scares about AHB. There aren't people dying everyday from AHB. AHB are not chasing people through the streets of Brazil. In all of my travels down there I've not even heard mention of AHB. In short, the arrival of AHB in the US has not been that big of an event. People and beekeepers in sustained AHB areas are coping just fine. Life will go on.


----------



## JBG

They aren't chasing people thru the streets of Brazil because there is not urban or suburban hobby beekeeping there as we know it due to AHB. Check out the Thomas post on Honduras as well as the basic Delaplane First lessons book. Delaplane is one of the best for brevity and accuracy. Once you get deeper into Brazil and start dealing with bees you will hear many many stories of people dealing with aggressive colonies.


----------



## riverattachment

From
http://www.physorg.com/news169743053.html

"Honey bees respond aggressively only if their hive is disturbed. But when disturbed they mount a vigorous defense - the all too familiar bee sting. The researchers observed that changes that occur in the brain of a European honey bee after it is exposed to alarm pheromone (a chemical signal that the hive is in danger) look a lot like the more gradual changes that occur over the bee's lifetime. (Old bees are more aggressive than young bees.) 

Even more striking was the finding of a very similar pattern of brain gene expression in Africanized honey bees. In terms of brain gene expression, Africanized bees "look" like they were just exposed to a whiff of alarm pheromone, even though they weren't."


----------



## Walt B

What a great thread! :applause: One problem...

I've always made great sport of entomologists. Now I'm going to have to apologize to a bunch of them. 

Walt


----------



## DRUR

Gene Weitzel said:


> Just a few things that in my opinion make them unsuitable for survival in more temperate areas:
> 
> Even without consideration of their less efficient clustering, they are clearly not well suited to colder areas, and, IMO there will definitely be a demarcation line that will develop.
> 
> However, given that they are surviving in some surprisingly cold areas and struggling in some fairly warm areas, the path that the line takes, IMO will be a little more complex than just temperature isotherms or even a Lat/Long delineation.


Let me summarize what my understanding is concerning AHB. Much of this information is what was provided to beekeepers during the 80s concerning Ahb. Much has been done since then but I certainly have seen no studies contradicting these basic tenets. 

Just a few observations. 

The current maps showing AHB progression in the U.S.A. do not differentiate (except for the NASA map) between counties with sustainable AHB populations and an occasional confirmations; and in those instances where there is only an occasional confirmations no effort has been made to determine the source of those confirmations. Therefore the usefulness of those maps are limited, but rather local beekeepers should be more attuned to the true nature and extent of the problem as opposed to someone merely looking at those maps and trying to judge the extent of sustainable AHB expansion. Realistically, in looking at the maps dates (outside the demarcation line), it is more of a smorgasboard of confirmations, as opposed a systematic progression. 

Gene, I have backed off some of my statements concerning the cluster issue of AHB, mainly because I could not find the studies to support my contentions; but I believe they are out there, just pre-cyberspace age. During the 80s, the inability to cluster was going to be the primary limiting factor concerning progression of sustainable populations. Fact is it was the only issue that was presented. South America already had AHB which had reached the southern limits (32-34 degree) limits and this limitation was due to the failure of AHBs to cluster. The extent of cluster, if any was not discussed. However, bees consume honey (individually) to produce energy in order to produce heat. Where bees are in a tight area (cluster) more heat would be maintained with help from your neighbor. I have seen no studies showing that AHB cluster at all. But logic would seem to suggest that if these nests were in small cavities, that the brood nest area would be centralized in a smaller are, thereby possibly causing an artificial cluster, not from the genetics of the bees but more from the environment. The current references I have found regarding clustering are mentioned in passing like they don’t cluster as efficiently. Well, that could mean they don’t cluster at all to there is only a small measurable difference. My gut intuitions is that they don’t cluster at all. There is a big difference in 30F and 25F as far as survivability of a bee, and also for extended periods of cold as opposed to an occasional cold snap that doesn’t freeze, say an oak tree thru and thru. Now, certainly there are areas beyond, and within the 32-34 degree demarcation line that are affected by weather patterns and other environmental conditions (such as a 9000 foot mountain range or a desert area). So this demarcation line (as shown by the NASA map) is a variable line, but the ultimate reasons for the limitation should be the issue, and this is generally not discussed. Hence the anomaly that areas of Oklahoma show progressions, yet East Texas in my area does not. Of course the rain barrier may also be an issue, but still, I am sure it gets quite cold in Oklahoma. 

Gene’s observations are certainly factors in determining the sustainability of AHB populations, but until I see studies which refute the clustering issue, IMO, this is the biggest limiting factor.

In addressing the last part of Gene's quote, I don't think that the maps and/or other available data show whether these confirmations of AHB, are those which have somehow survived or were only a transient anomaly.


----------



## gulfbreeze

I am no expert in AHB or EHB and I am new to beekeeping, but I live in San Patricio one of the earliest counties to have AHB populations. From my experience of living here, and now having EHB hives, I don't really see the problem of having my EU hives taken over by AHB. I monitor my queens and will replace them every two years or sooner if I find she has been replaced. AF bees are here to stay like it or not. I hope that the reseach is valid that the bees will not tollerate cold. We beeks in the south will need you beeks in the north to provide us with "clean queens." So let's assume that they will spread into the colder wetter climates and adapt, what should we do as beeks? We need good hive management skills and solid research. To protect our EU stock, every aspect of queen rearing needs to be strickly controled and monitored. Genetic testing is a for sure way to identify and to keep the stock pure if you will. 

Or, we can incorporate AHB genetics into our existing hives. In other words, if you can beat them, join them. Destroy the most aggressive hives and keep the calmer ones. Encourage more bee keeping and more hives. Encourrage beekeepers to become better educated by obtaining their Master Beekeeper certification. We need more educational institutions willing to offer these courses and maybe an online or outreach certification program. 

If there is any good news about AHB it is that they seem more disease resistant. That was the goal in South America in the 1950's right? see http://kelab.tamu.edu/standard/Honeybees/ This research is a bit dated, but is it still valid? If it is, maybe we can use AHB to our advantage. 

Feel free to tear this apart, I have thick skin!


----------



## JBG

Here is a good site that shows large scale AHB keeping in Brazil.
http://www.cearapi.com.br/en/certification.html
Yes they are more disease rest. highly productive too. You can't really compare production #s to temperate EHBs because of the completely different climates.
EHBs just do not thrive there so you can't compare. 
It is not just as simple as incorporating AHB genetics and then dealing with it like you would EHB. You have to make big changes in your operation and style.
Some things just are not doable in an AHB yard.


----------



## beyondthesidewalks

JBG said:


> They aren't chasing people thru the streets of Brazil because there is not urban or suburban hobby beekeeping there as we know it due to AHB. Check out the Thomas post on Honduras as well as the basic Delaplane First lessons book. Delaplane is one of the best for brevity and accuracy. Once you get deeper into Brazil and start dealing with bees you will hear many many stories of people dealing with aggressive colonies.


I agree with you but some folks actually believe that's what's going to happen up here if AHB take over. It's the sensationalist attitude that I'm against, like the maps we've been looking at. My county has been AHB positive for a long time yet I don't believe that I've encountered AHB to this date. Meanwhile folks from up north describe us as being over-run by AHB. I feel there's too much misinformation and not enough realistic information out there.


----------



## DRUR

Since the AHB issue has popped up on this forum again, I thought that I would 'bump' up this thread in which this issue has been exhaustively discussed previously, lest some good points are left out which have previously been discussed. Also, please take note of all of the referenced studies and maps within this thread dealing with the problem.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


----------



## Batman

Where do you send a sample of the bees to find out what their genetics are? I have a hot hive here, and it was THE LARGEST swarm I have taken yet, it took 2 hive bodies to hold them all.

Craig


----------



## JBG

Galts CA. Hmmm. The current test is a morphological and not DNA/genetic and for CA I dunno but you could always ask Beltsville
http://www.ars.usda.gov/main/site_main.htm?modecode=12-75-05-00


----------



## JBG

If you have a place to keep them safely they are super producers and don't require all the nasty chemicals. So don't blindly follow whatever advice you hear. The experience is that they advance to their environmental limits so in those areas it a if you can't beat 'em kind of proposal. Plus once they get established they tend to calm down alot.


----------



## Tomas

beyondthesidewalks said:


> I have traveled throughout South America on business and there are not scares about AHB. There aren't people dying everyday from AHB. AHB are not chasing people through the streets of Brazil. In all of my travels down there I've not even heard mention of AHB. In short, the arrival of AHB in the US has not been that big of an event. People and beekeepers in sustained AHB areas are coping just fine. Life will go on.


For the most part for me your statement is true. People here in Honduras have learned to cope with Africanized bees. They know that they have to be careful around any colonies that they may run across. If there is a problem feral colony, they will find someone who knows how to deal with them (remove them or kill them). 

Beekeepers know how to deal with these bees. They are going to get ornery when you start to open the hives so the beekeepers take their precautions. I make sure I’m well suited and sealed. If I get some stings (and I usually do) I can handle them. But what always worries me is that some person or cow or dog or horse might just by chance be coming by the apiary and get a bunch of stings (even though I try to keep my yards far enough away from roads and other traveled trails that might be used). That is always in the back of my mind.

And there still are accidents even though africanized bees have been in Honduras for more than 20 years. About six weeks ago I got a call about a house here in town that had an ahb colony in an overturned barrel in the back yard. The people didn’t even realize there were bees there. But they came home that afternoon and found their dog dead. Something happened to set them off and the poor dog that was tied up too near to them couldn’t get away. Luckily none of the other neighbors got stung.

In the newspapers here there are several stories every year about bee attacks, and every once in a while someone is killed. Here are a couple, mainly about colonies causing problems in the Honduran capital, Tegucigalpa. They are in Spanish but these also have some photos.

http://www.hondudiariohn.com/nacionales=4221.php

http://www.heraldohn.com/Tegucigalp.../Abejas-africanas-nueva-amenaza-en-la-capital

http://www.heraldohn.com/Sucesos/Ed...ias/Ataque-de-abejas-en-la-colonia-Villanueva
----------
Tom


----------



## Tomas

JBG said:


> If you have a place to keep them safely they are super producers and don't require all the nasty chemicals. So don't blindly follow whatever advice you hear. The experience is that they advance to their environmental limits so in those areas it a if you can't beat 'em kind of proposal. Plus once they get established they tend to calm down alot.


Some of my africanized bee hives can be super producers but I find it to be real variable. I might pull 60 pounds out of one and the one right next to it might not have much of anything to harvest. I go back later on and that second one now has honey to pull but the first one doesn’t. And both hives seemed to be strong and in good shape for production. Part of the problem might be that I just use top bar hives, which I can make very cheaply but doesn’t always maximize honey production. Like was mentioned, production here shouldn’t really be compared to production in parts of the North America with ehbs, but down here it is definitely profitable.

Management can be tough, especially if you like to get into the hives and play with the bees. Small hives are fine to work with but not the big ones that you want for honey production. I tend to do a real hands-off type of beekeeping. I make sure all the hives have a good amount of space and let the bees do their thing. I then only really enter them to pull honey or later feed. All my new hives come from mainly swarms I capture (which is real easy here). Getting into to the hives to do splits gets them too riled up for my taste.

If you are going to do migratory beekeeping with Africanized bees, make sure your boxes are in good shape. Leaky boxes would be a nightmare. I don’t think you would really want to haul the hives with their entrances opened, like they do when going to the almonds. Here the migratory beekeepers put on a screened cover for ventilation and close up the entrance and any other small holes. If there is a hole, they will come out. 

And then there would be the constant worry about law suits in the States. Luckily here in Honduras there aren’t lawyers looking for whatever little minor incident to turn into a law suit. It still worries me though.

As far as diseases go, I see very few (if any) problems in my hives. I will lose some but that mainly seems to be caused by them running out of stores. They abscond. Africanized bees won’t stay in their hives and starve to death. If they start to get low on honey, they leave—and like right now. This is the problem that I have with the last swarms I catch before the rains start and the flowers stop. They have very little reserves and abscond if I don’t constantly keep supplemental feed on them.

On the other hand, they can very well pack away a lot of honey for survival during the dearth period—if they have a big enough nesting cavity. I see some feral colonies that have continuously inhabited the same hollow tree or crevice in the rocks for years. One of their problems is, and it has been mentioned already, they aren’t too particular about where they build their nest. Lots of times the cavity is fairly small. This following picture is of a colony my wife got several weeks ago. They had moved into a drainage box located next to this house. It was probably about the size of a deep lang box. I don’t think these girls would have been able to store enough away to survive a winter up north. (There are actually two more just like this one that I need to capture sometime this week.)

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s313/Tomas_fotos/feralcolonycajadedrenaje.jpg

----------
Tom


----------



## deltacornbread

Have not had to deal with AHB YET! They are two counties west of me and will without a doubt make it to my neighborhood.
A friend of mine had a colony of black bees a few years ago. You got within 50 feet of that hive and they were "bumping" you. Any closer and you got stung! Told him I would not keep this hive. He liked them because they produced a lot of honey.
Will wait and see what happens when they do make it to my neighborhood.


----------



## wolfpenfarm

deltacornbread said:


> Have not had to deal with AHB YET! They are two counties west of me and will without a doubt make it to my neighborhood.
> A friend of mine had a colony of black bees a few years ago. You got within 50 feet of that hive and they were "bumping" you. Any closer and you got stung! Told him I would not keep this hive. He liked them because they produced a lot of honey.
> Will wait and see what happens when they do make it to my neighborhood.


well i'll tell ya, if you like several thousand bees hitting you at one time when you go to the hive and open it, then you should be able to deal with AHB's. I had 4 hives that i got last year that were africanized. Ended up requeening. This years bees are a dream, their docile almost comatose except for working like they should.

I have my two hives right next to the house and walk up to them every day to check without any veil or whatever. last year the hives had to be located 150 feet away just to keep them from assaulting me.

the hives from last year never survived this winter. They didnt build up any stores to speak of and i ended up having to feed, and they ended up starving when temps got down to -8 and they couldn't get to the sugar.


----------



## Tomas

That´s one of the big advantages with the hot hives in the States, whether they are africanized or not—they can be easily requeened with ehb. It is not that hard to get ahold of replacement queens. There are lots of breeders. There is no reason that comercial and hobby beekeepers would ¨have¨ to deal with africanized bees.

Here in Honduras, on the other hand, I really have no choice. Queens would cost me a pretty penny (or maybe I should say centavo)—even if I could find some close to me. They would probably be crosses between ahb and ehb or just selected pure ahb that are a bit more calm. But still probably not real calm like the bees one usually gets to deal with in the States. And then there is the problema about how these hives would compete against all the feral ahb hives—both in terms of honey production, posible take overs by ahb swarms and with the eventual mating of new virgin queens. It makes me wonder how crosses would even handle the normal bee diseases.

I deal with africanized bees because I really have no other choice. I had to chance to work with a commerical beekeeper in Wisconsin for several years. Even on a bad day those bees were no where close to what I deal with at times here. Ehbs are definitly nice to work with.

But on the other hand, I give thanks for not having the disease nightmares that many beekeepers have to deal with in the States. It makes me think sometimes whether it is worth the trouble having to deal with ornery bees but at the same time not worrying a lot about disease and not having to spend a bunch of money and time on disease treatments.

----------
Tomas


----------



## dietz honey farms

i live in southeast tx ,try having 4 africanized hives in one bee yard they are tough saying it mildly they litt me up with a heavy bee suit with a long sleve shirt underneith the suit when you get within 200ft seeing distance of the entrance of the hive they are poring out ,coming directly at your facing i took samples and sent them to la and had antlized they were 71% -83% af . i had to burn one hive in its place because they were so hot, they get your other hive aroused also . i have to requeen every yr to keep the crap out my bee yards .


----------



## JBG

Collect them and we can get some BP executives to come out for a picnic on the south forty and an unfortunate honey spill can happen.


----------



## Chick

Tim, Where did you send them, and how much did they charge? I have a couple of hives that I think are Africanized, too. They are not as bad as what you had, but they routinely are bad. And yes, if one hive gets mad, the ones around picks up the fever.


----------



## Hambone

Chick said:


> Tim, Where did you send them, and how much did they charge?


Texas A&M will do it for free. 

http://tais.tamu.edu/forms/pdf/bee_id_howto.pdf


----------



## JBG

Slow process. I have asked and asked for a quick field id test kit. The current test is mostly morphometric based isn't it? As in you do bee body measurements and plug them into a model that does the id. A fast dna test would be nice! In Brazil this is not an issue as all the honeybees are AHB.
However, when they are on the march and in a harsh environment like TX they get more agressive. Lots of Texas critters are like that huh?


----------



## RichardsonTX

I think I came in contact with Africanized bees this weekend! 

A friend of mine asked me to relocate an old hive that had been abandoned on some property he just purchased. When I starting moving the makeshift box hive, the bees started pouring out of the entrance, top and cracks along the sides and coating my bee suit. Even after putting about 200 yds of distance between myself and the hive they were still attacking me in large numbers. 

I am very glad I decided to wear my suit and my gloves since I almost started to move the hive without wearing them. It was just at dusk with barely any light and I figured they would not be too bothersome. 

Does anyone have any ideas on what they think I should do from here?


----------



## Chick

haha. They get bothersome, at times. First thing, don't mess with them too late in the evening, and never after dark! Just smoke, and let them settle about 10 minutes after you smoke them. Give them a couple of more puffs, then do what you need to do.


----------



## JBG

Get an AHB sized smoker and requeen.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgury/4102785413/


----------



## captaintat2

JBG said:


> Get an AHB sized smoker and requeen.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgury/4102785413/


And where can I get one of those smokers?


----------



## Daniel Y

That is a combination smoker and leaf blower.


----------



## drmanhadan

Forgive my ignorance, but after a bad experience with some peeved bees, I just wanted to ask:
What sorts of programs are out there to combat Africanization?


----------



## Chick

None that I know of. Texas A&M had swarm traps along Hwy 105 from Sour Lake, up to I-45, but that was only to check the progression of them north. The traps have been down for over 10 years now. They have said that all hives now have some Africanization in them. As time goes on, the traits get watered down, more and more. It is very seldom that you get a hot hive, but when you do, you have to weigh your options of destroying them or requeening them .


----------



## captaintat2

Another option is to get a ventilated suit. Yes, they are a bit costly but you stay cooler and don't get stung. I find the hard part of working with ahb is to trying to ignore all of the noise and having bees all over me and just get my work done.


----------



## Michael Bush

>Next time you can talk with your state bee inspector, ask him about the colony we re-queened in Kittery. It was a Buckfast package that came out of Texas. Absolutely ferocious. Tore up the neighborhood, and started a war among neighbors. 

I had some of those. If that was as nice as I could get for bees, I would give up beekeeping. On the other hand, I've handled supposed AHB in the Virgin Islands and they were fine. I've handled Dee Lusby's bees and, while I would prefer my bees a bit nicer, most of them were tolerable. I also remember some of those "German" black bees that were intolerable back when I was starting out and doing cut outs.


----------



## Paul McCarty

OK - this is my personal rant - What I don't like is how AHB is used as a blanket term for aggressive bees. I live in an AHB hybrid area and we only rarely find truly aggressive bees. The ferals are mostly just runny and a little unpredictable. Unworkable or truly mean bees are not that common. I have found quite a few wild hives that test out as EHB that were far more aggressive than most of the African hives I deal with. Dark and mean - and usually high up in the mountains. In either case - they are just wild bees. Wild Africans are like the wild black bees of old - maybe not quite as mean.

What many people either forget or simply don't know is that in certain areas of our country, some of the african genetics has been here since the 1500's (AMI and Iberian). It is nothing new, especially in the Desert Southwest, where it is suspected the Spanish introduced them. I have heard say it is something close to 25% in many areas, and maybe higher. I am sure this has an effect. Now Texas bees are a different genetic critter, and I have not experienced them. There is no genetic record of AMI/Iberian type bees in that region. Those conditions are more conducive to Scutellata. I have seen lot's of bees that test as african here, but only a couple that acted like classic Scutellata. I doubt most people could tell the difference in them and regular bees in most cases, yeah they can be a little wild, but they are not like people describe the Brazilian bees - and they are quite at home in our cold temps.

Also as the Brazilian bees move northwards, they express more EHB dna traits that result in them being more like the old Black Bees of old. Apperantly the nuclear DNA is different than the Mitochrondrial DNA and different traits can be expressed based upon the survival conditions. Mito DNA never changes only shows where the mother came from. Maybe these are the bees I am seeing?

It floors me how little is actually known, as a whole, by most beekeepers on this subject and how dogma seems to guide everything. They are just naturally selected wild bees in the end. We should not be making distinctions and dividing them up as it leads to people making profit from killing our feral bees. Just my opinion.


----------



## drmanhadan

Paul McCarty said:


> OK - this is my personal rant - What I don't like is how AHB is used as a blanket term for aggressive bees. I live in an AHB hybrid area and we only rarely find truly aggressive bees. The ferals are mostly just runny and a little unpredictable. Unworkable or truly mean bees are not that common. I have found quite a few wild hives that test out as EHB that were far more aggressive than most of the African hives I deal with. Dark and mean - and usually high up in the mountains. In either case - they are just wild bees. Wild Africans are like the wild black bees of old - maybe not quite as mean.
> 
> What many people either forget or simply don't know is that in certain areas of our country, some of the african genetics has been here since the 1500's (AMI and Iberian). It is nothing new, especially in the Desert Southwest, where it is suspected the Spanish introduced them. I have heard say it is something close to 25% in many areas, and maybe higher. I am sure this has an effect. Now Texas bees are a different genetic critter, and I have not experienced them. There is no genetic record of AMI/Iberian type bees in that region. Those conditions are more conducive to Scutellata. I have seen lot's of bees that test as african here, but only a couple that acted like classic Scutellata. I doubt most people could tell the difference in them and regular bees in most cases, yeah they can be a little wild, but they are not like people describe the Brazilian bees - and they are quite at home in our cold temps.
> 
> Also as the Brazilian bees move northwards, they express more EHB dna traits that result in them being more like the old Black Bees of old. Apperantly the nuclear DNA is different than the Mitochrondrial DNA and different traits can be expressed based upon the survival conditions. Mito DNA never changes only shows where the mother came from. Maybe these are the bees I am seeing?
> 
> It floors me how little is actually known, as a whole, by most beekeepers on this subject and how dogma seems to guide everything. They are just naturally selected wild bees in the end. We should not be making distinctions and dividing them up as it leads to people making profit from killing our feral bees. Just my opinion.


I agree with the whole idea of natural conduct/ letting the Ferals to themselves, but we both have to come to terms with beekeeping as a human activity. Truly feral bee activity outside of human influence face none of this distinction and remain resilient (hence the persistence of the aggressive genes from the South American imports)


----------



## Paul McCarty

What we should be doing is breeding the non-aggressive/non-runny ones and letting their genetics spread. Can't speak for Texas bees though - you guys have a much stronger Brazilian influence.


----------



## rweakley

how about allowing calm nice bees to make as many drones as they want? I have said for a while now that purposely trying to limit the number of drones in our supposedly "good" hives is very detrimental to the fight against AHB. Might get a little less honey, but we might just win the genetic war.


----------



## Paul McCarty

That's exactly how to do it, though the queen carries most of the temperament genetics, to my knowledge. Use lots of virgin queens and let your drones spread far and wide.


----------



## D Semple

Cross post from another Forum I am a member of:

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?97543-Living-a-horror-story-warning-graphic


Don


----------



## Paul McCarty

I have run across non-africanized that are just as bad, but Texas does have a problem with the mean ones.


----------



## Moccasin

NO! Brazil loves them. The bees are not getting meaner the farther south you go. Everything is the same. Only the USA is perpetuating the myth. Rome traded with Africa for so many years their bees turned yellow and Italians are not worried about it either. As a matter of fact no one anywhere around the mediteranian is worried. The FABIS test says small cell bees are Aficanized. Queens have been traded to and from Africa too many times to count.


----------



## Paul McCarty

I am not entirely sure the problem in Texas is not because they bred meaner bees by killing most of the feral colonies for so many years. And you are correct about Brazil. Mr. Kerr was definitely a political target when all this started years ago, due to his human rights activism, and we are definitely carrying on what their old dictatorship started.

There are mean African bees out there, but where I live, I just don't see that many - and from what I understand the ferals around here were probably African (North African) to begin with long before the Brazilians showed up. I tested all my bees regularly before the testing was discontinued by the state this year, and was surprised in several cases by what showed up being African. I don't think their test proves anything and simply set's things up to destroy wild bees, usually for profit. That is economic growth right?


----------



## Moccasin

Honeybees are dangerous sometimes. You always need to be careful. Horses have been reported to have been stung to death in the 1800's in the northern USA.


----------



## Paul McCarty

Way before Brazilians showed up. I think people want their bees to be fuzzy little pets sometimes. They are wild critters with a little bit of breeding behind them. All bees can be dangerous, that is why we were bee suits.


----------



## drmanhadan

That's true, but nevertheless there _are_ bees out there that along you to handy them as if they are small, cuddly animals. I believe that feral bees should remain territorial, but only to a reasonable extent (alarm zones remain manageable and aren't too invasive) simply for the reason that I believe all animals should have a means of self-determination and survival. However, for the bees we handle in our fields, and provide residence to, I have absolutely no problem with full-out domestication. We're not exactly milking wild cattle anymore are we? We're milking DAIRY cows.


----------



## Paul McCarty

I agree with maintaining a healthy poplation of wild bees and most of what you mention. I think that it is what will save us in the end; we are in dire need of hardy survivors due to a plethora of reasons.


----------



## Moccasin

drmanhadan You cannot domesticate honeybees because the virgin queens are attacked by every drone in the air as soon as the leave the hive. Drones can enter any hive they want as long as that hive is not short of nectar. Only artificial insemination would control genetics. I have never found a "wild" beehive to be any different from one in a box. I have not seen the true BLACK bees for 25 years.


----------



## Paul McCarty

There are a lot of dark feral bees out there, and quite a few I have seen that would seem to fit the description of AMM, but most are hybrids of many different genetic sources - including African. At this point, they are a mixed race of dark bees. In the end - they are just wild bees, some more so than others. Not some alien creature as some would have us believe.

I think the move back to darker bees is a product of natural selection taking place, more than any one genetic factor.


----------



## Moccasin

Before 1859 there were only jet black bees here. Everyone called them natives. The nice stripes we see were brought here at great financial cost. The Italian bees everywhere now. They have even displaced the blacks in northern Europe.


----------



## Paul McCarty

They brought A M Intermissa and Iberiensis to the Southwest way before that. Both of them show up as African when tested. Their descendants would be the closest thing to true black bees you would see in my neck of the woods. At this point they would be a motley hybrid. Several years back Roxane Magnus did a genetic study and concluded there were some remnants of AMM, AMI, and Iberiensis in the feral bee population, depending upon where you live. She also found remnants of Egyptian in them too.


----------



## drmanhadan

Moccasin said:


> drmanhadan You cannot domesticate honeybees because the virgin queens are attacked by every drone in the air as soon as the leave the hive. Drones can enter any hive they want as long as that hive is not short of nectar. Only artificial insemination would control genetics. I have never found a "wild" beehive to be any different from one in a box. I have not seen the true BLACK bees for 25 years.


Alright, I get the idea that bees are easily "diluted" by other feral drones, however, we can actually maintain selective breeding through what you said, _artificial insemination_. With this resource/technique at our disposal, I say we utilize it for domestication, right?


----------



## drmanhadan

What do y'all say to me beginning a "Combatting Africanization and Aggressiveness" thread?


----------



## Paul McCarty

I'd say to drop the "Africanization" and just call it a combating aggressiveness thread. We need to rid ourselves of this term.

II queens have their issues. It has been proven scientifically that they need diversity in their matings to prosper. One of the reasons bees are in such a sad state of affairs is because of practices like this.


----------



## drmanhadan

Paul McCarty said:


> I'd say to drop the "Africanization" and just call it a combating aggressiveness thread. We need to rid ourselves of this term.


Wish granted. Search 'Combatting Aggressiveness'


----------



## Ross

There seems to be a real misconception about Texas, it's climate, and it's size. I'm closer to Chicago than I am to El Paso. Our climate in east Texas is more like Louisiana than Austin or anything west of Ft Worth. The areas of Texas that are nearer to Mexico have a much different problem with AHB than east and north Texas. We get an occasional hot hive, and some are down right nasty, but no more than just about anyplace east of here. If they are hot, requeen. It's not that hard.


----------



## Paul McCarty

Totally agree. Most of what people say are hot "AHB" are probably just regular ol' bees. They just have gotten used to the comatose in-bred domestic ones. I live 50 miles from the Mexican border and it is the same for us.

I do not believe they have ever detected African genetics in East texas. Way too wet.


----------



## julysun

captaintat2 said:


> Another option is to get a ventilated suit. Yes, they are a bit costly but you stay cooler and don't get stung. I find the hard part of working with ahb is to trying to ignore all of the noise and having bees all over me and just get my work done.


I agree with this, the intimidation of many, many, very angry bees buzzing all around is big! Usually, one or two will get under my protection just to add to the problem, and, it gets HOT , sweat in my gloves, in my eyes! As the joke goes " It is hard to remember that you came to drain the swamp when you are up to your ***** in alligators".Recently I have learned to keep all boxes that are open covered, I now carry extra 1/4" plywood sheets for this. It really cuts down on the bees in flight.


----------



## rhaldridge

julysun said:


> .Recently I have learned to keep all boxes that are open covered, I now carry extra 1/4" plywood sheets for this. It really cuts down on the bees in flight.


Paul, do you think that keeping bees in long hives cuts down some on their potential aggression? I have one boomer that has almost completely filled a 4 foot long hive, and as its grown, it seems to have become somewhat more aggressive. I was gone for a month recently and my wife had to get into it. She found the number of bees fairly intimidating. But when I was in the hive last week, it seemed okay, even when I had all the covers off.


----------



## Paul McCarty

Long hives can definitely be intimidating - even with domestic bees. There are steps you can take to keep from facing the equivalent of 4 open deeps of bees at once. You can do what I do and get two pieces of burlap drop cloths and only expose the area where you are working. it works very well. The bees don't mind the temporary cloth cover. I also use a lot of sugar water spray to keep them busy licking themselves. My top covers are cut into 3 sections. I never have all open at once.

Longhives can build up an intimidating amount of bees in a very short time.


----------



## drmanhadan

What do yall think about spraying one's suit before going into the hive with diluted vinegar? Too much exposure to the stuff or no?


----------



## susanrudnicki

walking bird said:


> I talked with one veteran beek on this forum who told me his Africanized hives would hit his veil so hard they would be squirting venom through the netting. A scary scenario...


 I live in Los Angeles and went to a talk last year by Eric Mussen, head of the apiary at UC Davis. He started his talk with this inflammatory quip. We use Africanized ferals in all our hives in our club and never buy bees or feed or treat. Mussen admitted he had never kept a hive of ferals, so my opinion of his distaste for them is that he is biased and judgmental.
I have had spirited discussions with him over various faulty experimental designs he has run to determine the effects of HFCS and antibiotics on package Italians. He claims the microbial gut flora of the bees he used was unaffected by HFCS or drugs, but he admitted that he did not measure or assess any of the microbe levels before he did the experiment to know what was already there, nor did he account for any epigenetics related to previous treatments, and he ran the test for a paltry 2 months. He also used a probiotic mixture formulated for CANINES (dogs) as a investigative aspect of the experiment---a useless factor, in my opinion. He told me he was admitting this investigation was "fast and dirty"
Africanized bees are here to stay and represent the fallout from our experimentation with bee genetics, importation, and pursuit of profit, with Nature having the last say.


----------



## Gino45

I'm really intrigued by the fact that folks are working with these bees in urban and suburban LA---and many of these keepers are far from experts---no, I don't mean you, Susan.

I gather that these bees can't be all that bad. Or else the public has had a huge change in attitude and tolerance about bees in recent years.


----------



## Paul McCarty

It's about 75% hype. They are around, but they are really just really wild bees. In most places they just made the local ferals a little bit wilder and super-hardy.

In my countless hours of looking up scientific papers on the internet and in obscure books, I have found a considerable historical trail that these bees were already here in many places and really are not that new. The Brazilians ones are, but there were others before them. The full Brazilian breed doesn't do well in our temperate climate - and the European in them comes out a lot more, though it tends to be more western European than Mediterranean. Think AMM.

The pre-existing ones were not from experimentation, they were from Spanish monks way back in the old days.


----------



## susanrudnicki

Yes, I think Paul has it correctly. The experimentation I know about was with Professor Kerr in Brazil in the '50's with EHB doing poorly in the sultry climate and his idea to import African bees to create a more heat tolerant hybrid. 
I do a huge amount of Educational outreach for our club, speaking to churches, municipal authorities, schools, civic groups, and they are uniformly motivated to learn about bees by the media coverage of CCD. It is the number one question they are curious about---"what is all this dying of the bees?"
Number 2 question is, "what about those "killer bees"?" The media needs sensationalism, and the CCD issue gave them a handle. The thing I explain to groups is that the media is doing a poor job explaining the fact that the commercial migratory bees are the population suffering this collapse, not our wild bees. These genetically selected bees forage on crops with varying residues of insecticides, herbicides, fungicides, they feed on one pollen/nectar source for days or weeks at a time, they are heavily treated with drugs and chemicals, they are fed HFCS and artificial pollen, they convey these pollutants to the hive to be ingested by brood and queen with deleterious effects, they are subject to the additional immune stress of being trucked all over the country. BUT--the media keeps saying "...it is not clear what is causing CCD" ! Meanwhile, Bayer Crop Science is awarded the exclusive "investigation" contract by the EPA to "discover" what is causing CCD. 
So, while the public is seeming to develop a bit more tolerance for the presence of bees (the Ag Commission did a study that found there are a average of 9 feral hives per square mile in the Los Angeles basin---so they are just out there) the public is also seeming to be more concerned with food security and purity issues, so they reach out for information.


----------



## Paul McCarty

You left out the part about Dr. Kerr being a political activist against torture, who was a victim of political slander by the Brazilian government - which the whole AHB thing carries on, right or wrong. And also that there are many institutions out there who have a vested interest in seeing the bees dead for profit, such as the petrochemical insecticide and pest control industry. What better than to paint them all as bad so an economy based on getting rid of them can be created.

So yeah, they can be bad, but so could AMM when they were around in large numbers. They are the ultimate underdog.


----------



## WLC

"The pre-existing ones were not from experimentation, they were from Spanish monks way back in the old days."

I still think that Cortez (himself a beekeeper) brought those bees over to New Spain in the early 1500s, before other Europeans.

I've also just learned that there is a scutellata component in the genetics of Bee Weavers. Although they say it isn't a large one.


----------



## susanrudnicki

I did not know this about Kerr, but I am also only 2 years into bees, so there is a lot to learn. The politics of bee breeding and American government breeding programs that distributed experimental strains are subjects I have only just begun to explore.


----------



## Paul McCarty

Once you start seriously researching the politics and origin of these bees, it will blow your mind. There are a lot of misconceptions out there masquerading as facts.

Kerr was persecuted by the Brazilian government for his political activism. It was they who coined the term "killer bees" and tried to tie him to a lurid story of how he was breeding genetically altered bees to disrupt civilization, or some BS like that. What Dr. Kerr is guilty of is basically being sloppy. Those bees that got loose were unbred wild bees straight from Africa. There were no feral bees at the time in tropical South or Central America, so they filled the niche and moved northwards. They are basically wild African bees. As they moved up they encountered regular honeybees and absorbed their genetics so that they could adapt to more temperate regions. So yeah, we have them, but they aren't really what has been advertised. And we also had several other pre-existing flavors of African before they got here (AMI, Iberian, etc). So they really aren't much more than a nuisance in actuality. Sort of comparable to the old days when AMM was prevalent in the wild woods.

I just re-queen anything that is overly defensive or runny on the comb. If you pull out a comb and the bees drip off in clumps, they gotta' go. That is mostly how we find them up here. Occasionally they can be defensive too, but it is real variable.

And as far as beeweavers go, they pretty much have all the African breeds mixed in if they truly are Buckfast in origin. I have 4 hives of them and they seem awful similar to a well bred version of the wild bees you get in my region. I suspect they are just open mated survivors - which in my opinion is not necessarily a bad thing. I think that is what is going to save the beekeeping world. The designer breeds we use for pollination surely are not.


----------



## rhaldridge

Paul, in your research, have you come across any indications that the Beeweaver strain will do well, or can be adapted to, northern climates?


----------



## Paul McCarty

There are people on this board that keep them as far north as New York. I keep them at 7500' in the Rockies - gets pretty cold and snowy up here. **** cold in fact.

I have also found one of the biggest myths of African genetics is that they can't survive cold. That' total hogwash in my experience. They survive here plenty well, and it gets darn cold - sometimes down to -30. I think the biggest factor in bees like this not migrating North is that it really is not the climate they are best adapted to - sort of like why they didn't migrate East of Texas.

Go down to South America where they are full blown Scutellata and I am sure those bees won't survive the Winter. They have probably never even seen a Winter.


----------



## susanrudnicki

Designer breeds of dogs, roses, or any other human valued hybrid organism is a anachronism in Nature. Invariably, the selected genetics ends up eliminating advantageous and vigorous traits in service to the narrow range of human perceived values. This is the idea that bothers me most about the breeding programs, the dollars they attract and the powerful industries that cater to that system. This is your "what is going to save the beekeeping world" ---or any other world, for that matter. I am sick to death of hearing about the vaunted technological fixes that are going to deliver us from our hubris. The word biomimicry is being used in some scientific circles to direct attention to the way the natural world actually works, not the way we wish it would work. 
As to the bees we use here, they are easy to keep, don't need fussing and feeding, and act like bees---not zom-bees. I am not convinced of the utility of feeding commercial honey hives great quantities of syrup and fake pollen in order for them to turn it into honey, but that is the model urged by folks doing honey production on the Calfifornia coast. Not all of them, but a lot of them. Conventional club keepers are urged this is the "right method" also.


----------



## Michael Bush

>have you come across any indications that the Beeweaver strain will do well, or can be adapted to, northern climates? 

I had Weaver Buckfasts in Western Nebraska (the panhandle) from the mid 70's to the mid 80's (two winters it was -40 F and one of those it was -40 F every night for a month). I also had them in the late 80's in Laramie at 7,200 ft and a winter that was also -40 F for a week or more and in Eastern Nebraska in the late 90's up to 2001. Wintering was not an issue other than Varroa issues...


----------

