# Can I split this hive and requeen?



## Johnnycake (May 13, 2016)

Have a new package, installed April 30th. It is in medium 8 frame on wax foundation. Have not treated at all. Currently I've got 3 boxes of brood nest, and added a fourth two weeks ago. Checked it a week ago and they had the center 2 frames drawn, looked like they were filling with nectar but have to check back to see if they queen moved up there to lay or not, doing an open brood nest. Current queen is laying well, solid brood patterns, nice docile hive (so far). No issues yet with mites, etc. as far as I can tell. I have a TF mated Queen on order from Sam Comfort arriving later next week.

1. Can I build a medium nuc box and take the current Queen and put her in there with some frames of brood? If so, how many do you recommend?

2. Or is it better to requeen the hive as is because it is new and hope it fares better without breaking it up and just remove the existing queen?

3. My neighbor has a deep frame hive that is empty because he lost his bees over last winter. They were TF and he had them 3 seasons. He's got 3 boxes of drawn comb. Not sure if there is another possibility there but throwing that out there (I'd be willing to give him the queen and some brood as another option and then we both overwinter what we have and share splits in the spring if needed and if we make it through the winter).

I talked with a local beekeeper who said around here people overwinter successfully with 3 mediums. So looking for advice...

Pic of hive today:


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I think if it were me, and depending on whether you have a decent flow sometime between now and when winter hits, I'd go with option 1. I live in a much milder winter climate, though, and couldn't really tell you if it's a sound plan for your area.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

I would tally up the frames in open brood, capped brood, stores. Buy a bred queen. Split everything evenly and introduce the new queen the half that does not have the reining queen. Both hive will have no loss of brood production and work toward winter. If you do a small split this time of year in Pa. they will not be ready for winter. IMHO


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

are your neighbor's hive bodies 8 or 10 frame, are they all deeps, and how important is it for you to stay with all mediums?

i think an even split as suggested is the best option for the reasons given.

if your flows are strong enough for the remainder of the season you will be good to go. if not you may have to supplement with syrup especially if they are going to have to draw 3 more supers of foundation.

using the neighbor's equipment is something i would consider doing if it is 8 frame. giving that drawn comb to your splits will help them tremendously. i would put the deep of drawn comb on the bottom and let the bees move down into it.


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## Johnnycake (May 13, 2016)

Thanks y'all. So it sounds like it is worth trying a split then.

My neighbor's hive is all 8 frame deeps. I guess we could divide up the brood in my mediums and place a deep of drawn comb underneath in both hives? I don't mind sharing the equipment, and I don't mind mixing mediums and deeps either. This year is about build up and survival for me. And my neighbor is cool and we agree to share what makes it come spring between us.

3 follow ups if you don't mind:

1. how exactly do you recommend I do this split? Should I go through each medium box individually frame-by-frame and pull out half of what is there as evenly as possible? (I remember reading that Michael Bush sometimes does a split where you take full boxes and do a "one for you and one for you" but I guess I don't have enough to do that? If I go frame by frame in each box should I then push together the frames left in the original hive and add empty frames along the outside in those boxes? Or consolidate from all the brood frames I have in one medium? And in the other hive the same approach?

2. Can I do the split the same time as I put the new queen (in her cage) into the queenless hive or do I need to leave those bees queenless for a day or two?

3. Does the distance and hive direction for the other hive matter? Right now my neighbor’s empty hive is only about 20 ft away (pic attached), although I did position mine perpendicular at the start of the year in case he got bees. Do we need to move his hive further away?

Appreciate the advice.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

yes, try to divide honey, pollen, open brood, and capped brood as evenly as you can. put the empty deep on the bottom. in the first super put brood frames pushed together in middle flanked by pollen flanked by honey. the second super could be a smaller version of the first super with foundation frames to the outsides.

move the current queen to your neighbor's spot and introduce the new queen at your spot. no need to change their locations and orientation doesn't matter with regard to the splitting. i would want them with the entrances facing southerly. 

your hive will get the benefit of returning foragers so shake a frame or two of extra nurse bees into your neighbor's hive.

ideally leave your hive queenless for 24 hours prior to new queen introduction but even a just a few hours is ok.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

I always let the bees make these decisions. If they make swarm cells split the hive when you find them.
If they don't decide to go into swarm-mode then let them go over the winter as is.


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## Johnnycake (May 13, 2016)

Well, as it turns out my neighbor's hive is NOT 8 frame, it's 10. So that puts a kink in this plan to share equipment and use the drawn comb. Thinking maybe I should just requeen the hive and keep it strong with all its own stores and brood. Hate to squish a queen and not have a potential backup colony or second hive but in the end might be the best option since it is a new package first year? I went in today briefly and the 4th box had 1 frame of capped honey in the center and one uncapped about half done. No other frames drawn out yet on that top box. The one below it looked like it had a good deal of honey around the brood and on the outer frames. Didn't pull those frames because I know I need to go in later this week and find the queen and that will be a big disruption - that and a bee stung me on the elbow, not sure if it got caught in the folds of my shirt when I bent my arm or if it just got pissed off. Took that as a sign to get lost today, so closed it up and let them bee.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Johnnycake said:


> Thinking maybe I should just requeen the hive and keep it strong with all its own stores and brood. Hate to squish a queen and not have a potential backup colony or second hive but in the end might be the best option since it is a new package first year?


You have a very strong start with a good, albeit not treatment free, queen. There are significant advantages to having two hives rather than one. But you don't want to risk your solid start. I would pull the old queen, put her in an eight frame medium with the equivalent of a four frame nucs worth of resources and four empty frames; greatly reduce the entrance, and winter it on top of or beside (on the south or southeast side) of the larger hive. After wintering in Valley Forge, perhaps your bees will retake Philadelphia. It's rather American.


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## Johnnycake (May 13, 2016)

LOL. Patriot bees. Let the revolution begin...


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Riverderwent said:


> After wintering in Valley Forge, perhaps your bees will retake Philadelphia. It's rather American.


Haha! I hope this happens.


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## Johnnycake (May 13, 2016)

Thought I would post an update – the good news is my neighbor has a medium 10 frame of undrawn comb as well as least 3 deeps all drawn. So I built a 3-inch extension shim for one of my mediums that allows me to put 8 frames of his drawn comb in my hive when we split. So the plan for tomorrow or Sat, weather depending, is:

Evenly split the hive. Each hive gets a deep of drawn comb (one 10 and one 8) placed under at least one medium of brood/pollen/honey, and probably a partial second of the same plus additional honey. May get an additional portion of a honey super of honey depending what is in there – been a pretty good flow here in the last two weeks despite the drought so I’ll bet there is some more in the existing 4th medium. He’s still got some capped honey of a few drawn deeps in addition to what they’ve capped in the current hive as well. I am hoping between the deeps of drawn comb expanding/opening each new brood nest, the honey they made this year, and the honey he still has, that they should have a good jump on continuing to build up before winter - providing the queens get laying. 

We’ll pull the existing queen and put her in the new hive and wait 24 hours and add the mated queen to the other existing hive. Fingers crossed. We figure if one or two of them don’t build up well, even with some feeding if needed, we can always combine before we head into the winter encampment at Valley Forge.

Any red flags/flaws in the General’s plans?


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## Johnnycake (May 13, 2016)

Thanks to everyone for helping on this - my neighbor and I did the split. Fingers crossed!


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