# This is how community mating yard looks like



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

So, friends, this is how a community mating yard should look like.
You bring your virgin queen.
You mate her with the desirable drones.
You take her home.
Probably pay some fee (only fair and good business for the mating facility provider).
Pay attention to the ingenues equipment - standard mating nuc cartridges (insert/pull out).
This particular, remote yard is providing solid drone coverage from the certified Carpathian bee source (or certified F1 of that - not exactly sure - did not pay attention as not as significant).

Why none of this simplicity is available in the US?
Time to learn a thing or two.

Watch 5 to 15 - people are bringing their queens to be mated (rest is just talk in Ukrainian).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kmy5N9BB7I

Watch first 15 minutes - people are getting their mated queens back (rest is just talk in Ukrainian).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI8LPy9tM24


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

This is a really cool video I wish it was subtitled I would like to hear all the details.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

No titles, unfortunately.

Look at 8:55-9:00 of the first video above.
See the posted sign.
It says "Gorgan. Highland location of controlled bee mating. Scientific-research center for preservation of the Carpathian bee population. Director Muha Y..... phone #s. etc..... 
Smaller signs say:
- NO Trespassing
- Be careful of bees

So, this is how civilized, community open mating locations are done.

PS: an interesting detail in the first video - they are carefully checking the mating cartridges *before *installing them - this is done to ensure no foreign drones are found in those cartridges (any foreign drone found - must be removed)


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

I don't speak a word of Ukrainian but I really enjoyed those videos. 
Them are some really beautiful dark bees , is it possible to get some queens from this region of the world?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

calkal said:


> I don't speak a word of Ukrainian but I really enjoyed those videos.
> Them are some really beautiful dark bees , is it possible to get some queens from this region of the world?


I doubt you can get those bees shipped this far (unsure of the legal details either).
There is a waiting line every year from this provider and the queens get sold out before everyone gets them.
Unless you want to pay some $$$ and assume the risks, I guess.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

GregV said:


> I doubt you can get those bees shipped this far (unsure of the legal details either).
> There is a waiting line every year from this provider and the queens get sold out before everyone gets them.
> Unless you want to pay some $$$ and assume the risks, I guess.


only way you will get bees into this country is by way of Canada, so you would have to get the queens into Australia, they would have to go through quarantine(not sure how long that is), then have some one in Australia, ship them to Canada, then get somebody in Canada to ship them to you. Not sure how good or how old that queen would be by the time they got here. When Australia was shipping nucs to Calif. that's how some people got queens into the country. sounds pretty simple, I wonder how much the queen would cost?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Why none of this simplicity is available in the US?


That's easy, most US beekeepers (hobiests) don't care and don't take genetics any father then "should I by a package with a X or Y queen"
You can't get them to under stand why quality matters, why they should graft, The majority of them just split what ever and make E-cells. a queen is a queen is a queen to them. You will be hard pressed to convince them to pay what it takes to maintain a mating station... much less to even do what it takes to get a virgin in a mini nuc free of drones and transport it to a station. 

The next step up is the "mine are better" beekeepers who for some reason feel there shallow gene pool of a dozen or 2 hives made by spiting what lives is some how genetically superior to the commercial base stock it derived from, this is common with the TF crowd.. and in some cases its true! but more then often not... they aren't going to pay either 

Seems like when people get big enuf to care they are big enuff to set up there own drone saturation program, or spend a few grand on a II rig and training

That and US beekeepers can't get along.... try to do a "club" project... I have, it usually ends in frustration. 
and then of corse "what kinda" of bee would you mate... every one seems to thing what ever they like is better.... its easier to get people to rally around "native" stocks like in the video and the UK AMM programs.

for what ever reasons we have a large culture difference in the US vs outher places


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

wildbranch2007 said:


> only way you will get bees into this country is by way of Canada, so you would have to get the queens into Australia, they would have to go through quarantine(not sure how long that is), then have some one in Australia, ship them to Canada, then get somebody in Canada to ship them to you. Not sure how good or how old that queen would be by the time they got here. When Australia was shipping nucs to Calif. that's how some people got queens into the country. *sounds pretty simple, I wonder how much the queen would cost?*


Sounds rather complicated to me.


But anyway, my point really was not about getting another queen.
Here is a very simple business model right in front of you - go and do it.
If you have a worthy bee and have access to some secluded location, then setup a community mating yard for profit.
US is supposed to be the leader in innovative commerce. 
Time to learn; not preach.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> That's easy, ......... its easier to get people to rally around "native" stocks like in the video and the UK AMM programs.
> 
> for what ever reasons we have a large culture difference in the US vs outher places


I can see that.
Still, there are worthwhile stocks to try this.
Say, Michael Bush with those expensive queens for sale - why not setup a mating station next to that remote summer camp teepee in Nebraska? Those bees are supposed to be of the superior resistance (or so we hear). 
If true, why not run a mating station?

Easiest thing to do; collect the mating fee; people can bring their own queens OR get the one from the provider.
This queen shipping business is OK
But I could bring along 20-30 of my own virgins and get them mated there for a fair price (understanding the mating failure risk) - everyone is happy.

In the video #2 above (clients are collecting mated queens) - the operators is asking how their mating went.
Some had 100% success.
Some had 70% success.
Someone said - 50% so far, but still checking.
Some people brought their own nucs with the virgins (that is clearly visible - they are taking them home after mating).
Others used the standard see-through "cartridges". 
Some people mated up to 50 virgins; others - just a couple.
Some people drove large distance.
The operator lamented how the international clients could not make it this season - due to the COVID issues.
Really, really simple and great model.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

to be fair we have had bees in the US for what like 200 years, how long have they had bees in the Ukraine? 2000 yrs?

And every bee here is imported, there they do have native bees and would likely get some grass roots effort, to keep the species alive, similar to the Buffalo here, down bad then a rebound when folks cared enough to do it.

Also in the Ukraine they realize the Government is not going to "save" the bees they need to on their own. Here we still see the Government as the leader in doing things. perhaps in 1800 years we will be over waiting on the government to do it and we will dive in ourselves.

Different cycles in the country and native vrs non native makes a difference, IMO
we could learn from them and get it started...One community yard in each state.

GG


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

GregV said:


> Really, really simple and great model.


So, why have you not set up a mating station and run the business if it's that simple ?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

grozzie2 said:


> So, why have you not set up a mating station and run the business if it's that simple ?


It is very, darn simple - I own no worthy bee and I have no secluded location.
Otherwise, I'd probably not even share the idea until done it myself.

Like I said:


> *If you have a worthy bee and have access to some secluded location, then setup a community mating yard for profit.*


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> to be fair we have had bees in the US for what like 200 years, how long have they had bees in the Ukraine? 2000 yrs?
> 
> And every bee here is imported, there they do have native bees and would likely get some grass roots effort, to keep the species alive, similar to the Buffalo here, down bad then a rebound when folks cared enough to do it.
> 
> ...


Well, the imported Russian mutts from the Russian Far East are a very young formation (200 years at most from the origination - pretty much random, unplanned origination too) - this is the same as most any American import. 
They are for sale in the US as-if something very native to the Old World - NOT. 
Those Russians are very raw and recent mutts, in fact.

No need to look at the Old World. 
It is fine to create own, local populations here.
UP MI, btw, is a very attractive place, GG - for a summer mating station somewhere in those woods.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> Well, the imported Russian mutts from the Russian Far East are a very young formation (200 years at most from the origination - pretty much random, unplanned origination too) - this is the same as most any American import.
> They are for sale in the US as-if something very native to the Old World - NOT.
> Those Russians are very raw and recent mutts, in fact.
> 
> ...


Yep food for thought.

I already have the fee schedule worked out, 1-4 Queens mated a 6 pack of my favorite beer. 5 -15 queens a 12 pack and 16 and over a case.


seems that would cover some needs,, during my retirement......

just need some little drone shirts,, "will mate for beer"

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> Yep food for thought.
> 
> I already have the fee schedule worked out, 1-4 Queens mated a 6 pack of my favorite beer. 5 -15 queens a 12 pack and 16 and over a case.
> 
> ...


And of course, I get special treatment!
OK, fine, will bring some local brew.
Should work for me - fine driving distance from here; drop my queens; picnic there; get back home (then repeat the same and get my queens back).
LOL


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

what do you consider a a fair price per nuc?



> Others used the standard see-through "cartridges


Einwabenkästchen (EWK)
https://www.bienen-ruck.de/imkershop/koeniginnenzucht/einwabenkaesten/461/einwabenkaestchen-ewk


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> what do you consider a a fair price per nuc?
> 
> 
> Einwabenkästchen (EWK)
> https://www.bienen-ruck.de/imkershop/koeniginnenzucht/einwabenkaesten/461/einwabenkaestchen-ewk


I don't know what you mean by this.
A cartridge-nuc price?
The link you posted - ~$20 is a good price for a multi-use equipment.
If you observe the video carefully, they have many variations of this same cartridge (one was exactly from your link; I noticed 3-4 different variants).
Other maybe home-made - just to the same spec.
The containers that hold two of these cartridges were probably cut to work with this particular spec.

Some people just brought their own entire mating nucs - that can be clearly seen.
They just set them up onto the empty slots.
Heck, I could bring my own foam nucs just the same and keep equipment cost low.
Of course, the equipment should be robust so that the mating site operator is not concerned looking after it (I'd require this).

So the equipment pricing is one thing and is totally up to the customer.
The mating fee - is the other thing.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Another interesting observation.
Those mating nucs and the drone units are sitting next to each other.
No one is concerned that the virgins will fly elsewhere and find some other, remote drones (OR even go un-mated).
I wonder how true is this entire theory of the queens flying farther away than the local drones will (so to avoid mating with the local drones).

For this mating station to work, the virgins should be mating the local drones (or go un-mated).
OR the mating entire scheme is fake IF to believe the theory that the "queens fly far and the drones fly close".
Wonder what gives.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

price per nuc/queen put on site to mate out, ie mateing fee




> Wonder what gives.


isolation from outher drone sources in a mt valley and drone saturation



> Heck, I could bring my own foam nucs just the same and keep equipment cost low.


bad plan, I don't think any reasonable operator would alow it, no easy way to inspect for drones


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> OR the mating entire scheme is fake IF to believe the theory that the "queens fly far and the drones fly close".
> Wonder what gives.


Here it says:


> How far does a queen bee fly to mate? It depends on how quickly she finds drones, or how quickly the drones find her!


https://wildflowermeadows.com/tag/queen-bee-mating/

Maybe that is the real answer, predicated on no other drones available in general area.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> price per nuc/queen plased on site to mate out
> 
> isolation from outher drone sources


I got responses back from the mating site provider.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> bad plan, I don't think any reasonable operator would alow it, no easy way to inspect for drones


Sure; good point.
Those see-through gizmos are ideal.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

not what they charge (witch would be fun to know), what do you think is a fair price


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> not what they charge (witch would be fun to know), what do you think is a fair price


I would think this should be a ratio of mated queen for sale (and the bulk factor; and the risk of failure factor).

So, say I bought a desired queen this year for $35.

Getting a similar queen by mating my own virgin to those desired drones should ideally approach to 50% of that same genetic value at max (since the virgin is of my own origin).
So, $35*0.5 ~ $17.5
Now add the bulk factor...
So, maybe mate 5 queens for $50-60 at the site of the provider where I got $35 mated queen.
If your mated queen sells for $200, then your mating services will be higher, I imagine (presuming some magic better bee).
Unsure who eats the cost of the failed mating cases (50/50?)
Gotta start somewhere.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

you two make things to complicated, I did the above with ankle byters, set up a totally isolated yard, two in fact, ordered in original queens from multiple sources for people to buy, made both yards available to mate q ueens from the Ankle byters for free. I was the only one that brought in queen cells to mate with the drones, after two years shut the yards down. Had an isolation yard for 20 years, worked out fine for my own queens, ended up with what I wanted in my queens, worked fine for me, easier for people to get them earlier from the south. nice to discuss but no one is going to do it here. bad keyboard so typing difficult.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

wildbranch2007 said:


> you two make things to complicated, I did the above with ankle byters, set up a totally isolated yard, two in fact, ordered in original queens from multiple sources for people to buy, made both yards available to mate q ueens from the Ankle byters for free. I was the only one that brought in queen cells to mate with the drones, after two years shut the yards down. Had an isolation yard for 20 years, worked out fine for my own queens, ended up with what I wanted in my queens, worked fine for me, easier for people to get them earlier from the south. nice to discuss but no one is going to do it here. bad keyboard so typing difficult.


And did you offer your services to anyone?



> easier for people to get them earlier from the south.


What MSL referred to as "I want that package with XYZ queen in it".
Well, true for the most suburban consumers.

But if you already sell queens and claim you are, somehow, different from the other guy - it makes sense to offer mating services (granted the isolation is available).
Little overhead is involved.

If you are unable to claim that you are different - why do you sell queens and why should people buy from you?

PS: the questions are rhetorical, of course - not to you, wildbranch;


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

The responses from the mating site operator.

Their pricing - ~$3.5 USD per a mating slot (equivalent of 100 Grivnas - this is Western Ukraine, keep in mind).
I googled the mated queen prices for Ukraine - 100 to 300 Grivnas (~$3.5-11.5USD).

So a mating slot indeed runs at ~50% of the average cost of mated queen, just like I proposed.
Though this particular provider sells his queen material pretty high.
So then his mating fee is proportional pretty low.

To my question about possible matings outside of the mating zone (I auto-translated and did few corrections):


> Most sources write complete nonsense. A lot of information is copied from old, unverified sources. With a good, saturated drone background, the queen bee does not have time to fly far, it is better to say this - the drones do not allow her to fly far and inseminate her within the mating yard, proof of this is visual observation: swarms of drones within the mating yard, queens very quickly return to their nucs within from half a minute to one minute with a train of drones, and of course dead drones on the roofs of the hives, which die after copulating with the queen bee in the air and fall down. Of course, in the wild, everything is different, the queen can fly away under the influence of instinct in search of fresh blood, but the drone can fly much further, migrating from apiary to apiary, any family takes it in the spring and summer period. We achieve controlled pairing thanks to good insulation, namely: location altitude - over 1000m above sea level and distance from humans - the first and only settlement is 14 km. from the mating yard is on the other side of the mountain "Syvulya" and the ridge "Gorgan".


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

my thoughts were the same as yours at 1/2 ...nice to know I wan't off base



> But if you already sell queens and claim you are, somehow, different from the other guy - it makes sense to offer mating services (granted the isolation is available).
> Little overhead is involved.


While it sounds good, the headache of dealing with retail at this level and the extra needed security with a whole bunch of people now knowing were a bunch of nucs are out in the middle of no were make is feel like a PITA.. full time job for some one at least... added over head.. 
were as a queen producer you can work your bees by your schedule...

I think this only works if people want to matain something... ie they like Russian bees so they want to breed the daughters of their bought queens to Russian drones ... but at that point the market isn't there... to many other people wanting too many different things.. we don't have that "native" status to galvanize people in to action... 

If you have a pedigree and all, thats one thing, but I see no reason to send "mutts" to such a yard...
Why not bring in super bee virgins at the same price and mate them localy? Or better yet 48 hour cells at 1/3 the price
You still get the 50/50 mix local/super bees but you have the benefit of them sending out pure super bee drones and you don't have to transport bolth ways

as wildbranch notes, people just don't go for it... not in our culture


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> my thoughts were the same as yours at 1/2 ...nice to know I wan't off base
> .......
> they like Russian bees so they want to breed the daughters of their bought queens to Russian drones ..
> .......
> as wildbranch notes, people just don't go for it... not in our culture


If that "secluded area" is your own property back in woods - may not be a full time security job.
"NO trespassing - private property" still works in the USA, I would hope.
Of course, knowing what is possible in CA stealing the bees, loading up a bunch of mini-nucs is a trivial job indeed.
A retired grandpa with a shot gun maybe needed.

Now, if you actually live on your "secluded property" that is pretty much ideal.

Maybe GG can setup something in his MI UP outback get away.
In that building, with the nucs lined up on some behind the grill shelf - if anything, I'd be worried about bears first.
Be so very cool!


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## crab414 (Jan 6, 2020)

I like to watch German bee keeping on you tube and the government provides mating stations to its bee keepers. I assume that it's free because they are trying to maintain a line of Buckfast that's varroa resistant.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

nope, mostly carnys


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Actually, what is to prevent our own GWW from saying:

Hey, bring your mini nucs to my place and have them mate here!
$10 per a mini, GWW will watch after them until they are done mating and picked back up.
Sitting right in the back yard, that is plenty security as for me.
Easy pocket money for GWW. 

Secluded or not, the place clearly has resistance present and that is sufficient in itself to try to capture some of it.
This is not necessarily about "pure breed mating"; this is about capturing some of the genetic slice present at the location.

Same for Leo Sharashkin with his "magic bees", or square_peg or .....
........any John Dow who just happens to live in such a location but is not in bee/queen selling business.
Renting spots for mating nucs should be easy enough proposition.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

GregV said:


> And did you offer your services to anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


as I said in the post


> ordered in original queens from multiple sources for people to buy


 we ordered in 60 that people bought, I set up the yards for the club. The AB's were not what they claimed, although the ones that were mixed it with my queens did produce as much honey as mine. It was a project for the club, I don't sell queens, give some away but don't sell


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Sounds like a great idea, even to this small time hobbyist. I live in a fairly isolated small town with only 4 other hobbyists that I am aware of. I have floated similar ideas about all using local queens ,all treating (sorry tf people) all using robber screens. No interest. It's not that they are opposed, they don't perceive the value. J


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Fivej said:


> No interest. It's not that they are opposed, they don't perceive the value. J


:doh:


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

right the smaller beeks are not clamoring for a "mating" yard.
if there is distance then there also is the 2 trips.

I think you almost need to build the mating yard to mate and sell your queens "the cake", and offer others to mate there "the frosting".

GG


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## farmer9989 (Feb 18, 2014)

maybe he was just drumming up business for being known ,and or to sell his queens or other products never can tell playing the numbers ,more happy folks more business . made good video also.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> I already have the fee schedule worked out, 1-4 Queens mated a 6 pack of my favorite beer. 5 -15 queens a 12 pack and 16 and over a case.
> ...
> 
> just need some little drone shirts,, "will mate for beer"


Now, this is a plan I can get behind- GG for Beesource president...


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

> Most sources write complete nonsense. A lot of information is copied from old, unverified sources. With a good, saturated drone background, the queen bee does not have time to fly far, it is better to say this - the drones do not allow her to fly far and inseminate her within the mating yard, proof of this is visual observation: swarms of drones within the mating yard, queens very quickly return to their nucs within from half a minute to one minute with a train of drones, and of course dead drones on the roofs of the hives, which die after copulating with the queen bee in the air and fall down. Of course, in the wild, everything is different, the queen can fly away under the influence of instinct in search of fresh blood, but the drone can fly much further, migrating from apiary to apiary, any family takes it in the spring and summer period. We achieve controlled pairing thanks to good insulation, namely: location altitude - over 1000m above sea level and distance from humans - the first and only settlement is 14 km. from the mating yard is on the other side of the mountain "Syvulya" and the ridge "Gorgan".


GregV:

Good thread- I enjoyed the read. If the above is in-fact true, it makes me wonder if a sideliner located in a relatively rural environment and copious drone production might run the risk of inbreeding depression after awhile without systematic importation of outside genetics- I see some parallels to the above and the Page/Laidlaw model of a minimum of 50 breeders to effectively select for traits:

http://www.capabees.com/shared/2013/02/pagelaidlawbreedingprogram.pdf


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