# How many mites can a hive survive?



## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

How did this heavily infested hive behave? Did the living bees have a different behavior than normal?

I ask these questions because here... when I have had heavy mite populations, the bees appeared to be sluggish, not really able to defend their space. And certainly not able to fend off SHB populations. Most of my mite hives die not from mites, but simply give up the hives to the SHB. At least so goes my latest hypothesis.


----------



## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Interesting. Hard to tell from the picture what is mites and what is debris. Since you don't use a SBB the live mites just sit there waiting to go back up into the hive. I would be very interested to see how long this hive survives with such a heavy load as you describe!!

Good experiment.


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I think the number of mites survivable is determined by the virus load accompanying them. Seems like this hive had a very low load of virus and no nosema.


----------



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

I had a swarm I caught last June. Came on like crazy. By fall they appeared to be waning. Did a Mite count and quite counting at 40. (300 bee sample with an alcohol wash) Almost trash bagged them. A few comments made me re think and I decided if they were going to die, it would be by natures' hand, not mine. Didn't figure they would make it through winter. Set up robber screens in case. Cluster went way down. Thought they would freeze but we did have a mild winter here. They are now doing as good if not better than some of my others. We shall see what this season brings. Is it a watershed for this hive. Don't know. BTW, the numbers of DWV bees crawling around in front of that hive in August was alarming. Just an observation. 
I asked this question concerning treatment for mites at the bee association meeting last week. " How do you know what the bees can do unless you let them try?(sound familiar? The answer I got was "You don't" Pretty much ended the discussion as far as I was concerned.
Good info Sir. May I use those pics for a talk on Treatment Free in the future?
Rick


----------



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Ten years ago I had a colony in August whose adult bees had developed the "Shabby Bag Lady" look and the brood was showing signs of BPMS. It was obvious the colony would not survive the winter so I treated and put in a white sticky board. The first 24 hour fall turned the white board black, and I am not exaggerating. There had to be 10,000 plus mite in the firts fall. I had never seen a varroa population that large before and I never have since.

To my surprise the colony survived the winter and grew strong enough to swarm the following spring. The colony requeened itself with a swarm cell queen and her offspring never developed BPMS again. The colony lasted 3 more years before it failed because of a drone laying queen.

I think my varroa population now will run 4 to 6 thousand at their peak in August but the bees now handle varroa well. I have not seen BPMS in years. SHB do increase with high varroa counts, luckly they are not that much of a problem in north Arkansas.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

hpm08161947 said:


> How did this heavily infested hive behave? Did the living bees have a different behavior than normal?


I did not notice anything out of the ordinary. I did fully expect them to die though, whatever that says.



Keth Comollo said:


> I would be very interested to see how long this hive survives with such a heavy load as you describe!!


They are quite small now, just under a soccer ball sized brood nest. Despite that, I can never seem to find the queen even though I see eggs and fresh brood. She must be a very small one. I have confiscated most of the hive, relegating them to a five frame nuc. There, they can live or die, their choice.



camero7 said:


> I think the number of mites survivable is determined by the virus load accompanying them. Seems like this hive had a very low load of virus and no nosema.


Perhaps. I don't know. I'm more interested in the fact they survived rather than why.



Rick 1456 said:


> May I use those pics for a talk on Treatment Free in the future?


Yes you may. My next phone will have a better camera so pictures will be better. I'll probably get a bad reputation on my website for big pictures, but if it were me, I would want the best detail possible, even if I have to wait a minute for it to load. Sorry to the dial up folks. There are mites in many stages of decomposition. It's obvious some have been dead since last winter, those are the black ones.



AR Beekeeper said:


> The first 24 hour fall turned the white board black, and I am not exaggerating. There had to be 10,000 plus mite in the firts fall. I had never seen a varroa population that large before and I never have since.


Sam Comfort's story is similar when he was learning to breed queens. I think he said he treated with formic acid or something and there were windrows of mites on the bottom board where they fell down between the frames. This was not quite that bad, but there were many mites visible on bees and in open brood cells. This hive was descended from a nuc I bought from Dixie Bee Supply if it matters to anyone.


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> Perhaps. I don't know. I'm more interested in the fact they survived rather than why.
> 
> .


Personally, if I planned on keeping bees I'd want to know why. Survival to succumb later from the same problem doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I understand your sentiment Cam, and as I've said before, if you want to test, I'll host. But I have a bunch of other hives which are doing just fine and I have many better things to do. This hive can live or die on its own, but my focus is on breeders. This hive is not going to be one because it's not performing. Maybe a supersedure will help.

And it kind of mirrors the feral hives I have around here which as far as I can tell are very small, living in small hollow trees. Swarms are typically very small in my immediate area, being smaller than half a 5-frame deep. So as you can imagine, survival is the only trait I want out of this hive, but survival is not something I breed for, by being treatment-free survival is more of a prerequisite. After that prerequisite is met, beekeeping for me is just like for everybody else, just without worrying about mite counts and rubber gloves. Now that I've begun grafting and have the ability to make massive numbers of increases and great leaps forward in breeding (compared to walkaway splits), little hives like this would probably be merged with more successful ones. 

This is an oddity of a hive, a neat-o moment. In the future, it probably wont even be allowed to happen because with increased efficiency comes decreased investment in oddities and greater focus on proven lines and sure things.


----------



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

In as much as you have this hive in your yard.(assuming) Do you feel the drone material/genes is worth while? Insufficient numbers to make a diff?
Thanks
Rick


----------



## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

A hive which can withstand high mite loads early in the season..ok. But can it withstand the onslaught of viruses to follow? 
I will be interested to see if this hive (as the parent colony) can perform the way a low mite load hive can....Honey production, fall healthy bees and winter survival. I guess those results will take a while to come in.
A battle won now, but by the third winter, will the hive still win the battle, or will the mites win the war? Only time will tell


----------



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

This is not meant to be confrontational or argumentative to anyone. Just a thought/statement if you will. I think the key statement in the OP is , "To let them go there." IMHO, that is key. How do you know if you don't. 
If this is a watershed for this hive, and it turned out to be the "Secretariat" of queens, we would all be in line to buy the next generation of queens. Do ya think?? Just something to consider.


----------



## tbb39 (Jun 9, 2007)

A battle won now, but by the third winter, will the hive still win the battle, or will the mites win the war?


sorry i vote that the mites will win


----------



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

tbb39,
You may very well be correct. Then I will know. My thoughts, for what they are worth to anyone, are, that I "rode" the treatment free wave for three years. I'm a back yard beek, I have enough hives I can make splits and keep it goin. They already made it farther than expected. Until the "magic bullet" comes along, this works for me. It is challenging, disheartening, but was I tickled when they made it and started over. I've got others that have "made it" as well. 
Anyway, I got no beef with treating per se. For me,,,,,the rewards are greater,,,for now


----------



## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

Can someone please tell me why this thread is in TFB?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Because the hive in question is a treatment-free colony and has been since it was created in 2007. It was posted by a treatment-free (exclusively) beekeeper, who linked to a treatment-free blog.


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

When you have a treatment-free hive that is eaten up with Varroa, why not requeen it before it succumbs? Seems like that would avoid the risk of beetles/moths messing up the comb and also keep drones from that hive from mating and spreading their genes. In other words, what's the advantage of actually waiting around for it to die?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I was not in the position to requeen when I discovered it. But the reason for letting it follow the natural progression is to see how far it can go. If I had requeened, I would not know how far they could take it. I fully expected them to succumb, but they have not yet. They may still.

As time goes on and I reach my goal number of hives, such frivolities will most likely no longer be tolerated.


----------



## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Keep us posted on how this colony does, if you would please. Personally I hope it makes it.
Regards,
Steven


----------



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

I drew the line in the sand three years ago. Into the fourth. So, I'm a newbie for all intents and purposes. I have the "luxury" to "play" because what is the worst case scenario for me? Some hives die and I may not get much honey. Not a big deal to me. I am not in this hobby for copious amounts of honey. My "bee ego" is fed by paddling up stream,,at times with one oar. I am just fascinated by the bees. Anything new to try, ect. just keeps my interest alive. Having said that, "for me" ,,treating,,,,would be an un interesting thing to do. I have been called "nuts" on this forum,,,and crazy at the local bee club. 
I love it
We all have to enjoy this hobby/profession, in what ever way it stimulates us, and go from there.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I've been called worse. I admire your motivations. I'm trying grafting this year. If you haven't done it, I recommend it. If not doing something new, then do something better. I wish you success.


----------



## NorthernIllinoisPlumber (Aug 17, 2010)

My hive has been evicting drones and worker bees left and right for the last three days crawling on the lawn. Yesterday I was stung, and the bee left a mite on my shirt. Today I pulled two workers from the lawn and they had mites on them. I wonder how long they can last. Strong hive, lots of activity...even honey going into the super.


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

This hive is collapsing and will be infecting all the hives nearby. Glad I'm not near you.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

All hives are infected.


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> All hives are infected.


True, but when a hive collapses and starts to get robbed the mite count in the robbing hives grows exponentially and they also will collapse. Still glad I don't have him next to my hives.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have seen no evidence of this. If what you say is true, then I should be experiencing periodic major collapses since I keep many of my hives very close to one another.


----------



## NorthernIllinoisPlumber (Aug 17, 2010)

camero7 said:


> This hive is collapsing and will be infecting all the hives nearby. Glad I'm not near you.


To my knowledge, I have the only hive in the immediate 1 mile radius.


----------



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

If you stop/prevent the robbing, you at least allow the hive being overwhelmed to potential deal with the mites. If they are tossing the "bad" bees out, maybe they are. How do you know this behavior has not "evolved" in some way. You will never know if you do not allow it to happen. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Z8W10T4Gg


----------



## NorthernIllinoisPlumber (Aug 17, 2010)

camero7 said:


> True, but when a hive collapses and starts to get robbed the mite count in the robbing hives grows exponentially and they also will collapse. Still glad I don't have him next to my hives.


So this hive is doomed without any kind of treatment?


----------



## NorthernIllinoisPlumber (Aug 17, 2010)

Rick 1456 said:


> If you stop/prevent the robbing, you at least allow the hive being overwhelmed to potential deal with the mites. If they are tossing the "bad" bees out, maybe they are. You will never know if you do not allow it to happen.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Z8W10T4Gg


That is what I figured.


----------



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Our posts crossed in cyberspace  
IMHO, that is not a given!!!!
Watch the previous posted video and read the comments. 
There are those that say, it is doomed with treatments JMHO


----------



## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

I generally don't worry about mites until I see other evidence, such as DWV. If I catch it early enough in the spring, I pull the queen and let them raise another. This breaks the mite brood cycle. Otherwise, they are pretty much on their own. This spring, I had one (so far) out of 19 that showed DWV. I did a powdered sugar roll - the mite count was 243 for 300 bees. That must be 100% infection. Still, except for the DWV, the hive was bringing in nectar, brood patterns were good, etc. We will see what happens in a month.


----------



## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Will be interested in hearing about it. That's amazing!


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

NDnewbeek said:


> I generally don't worry about mites until I see other evidence, such as DWV. If I catch it early enough in the spring, I pull the queen and let them raise another. This breaks the mite brood cycle. Otherwise, they are pretty much on their own. This spring, I had one (so far) out of 19 that showed DWV. I did a powdered sugar roll - the mite count was 243 for 300 bees. That must be 100% infection. Still, except for the DWV, the hive was bringing in nectar, brood patterns were good, etc. We will see what happens in a month.


Bet you'll have some nice drawn comb to start a new hive with next spring.


----------



## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

The affected hive is over 2 years old and that is surviving North Dakota winters. I am sure that they have carried mite loads before. To treat my operation for varroa in spring and fall would run me over $500/year in medication (15-20 hives), consume a ton of my time, contaminate my combs with the chemicals and probably cost me honey. I can put together 8 nucs ($15/frame of bees and brood + $16 queen) in the spring for that kind of money (and that doesn't include splitting off from my winter survivors or hiving swarms). 

If it survives and makes it through winter - great, I have some good genetics that I can then make a queen or two from. If it doesn't, that is fine too - it is cheaper for me to replace it in the spring anyway and maybe try a new strain of queen. Plus, as you said, I have the drawn comb - so the new hive will take off.


----------



## NorthernIllinoisPlumber (Aug 17, 2010)

Well, turns out the hive swarmed. My neighbor noticed a cloud of bees between the houses last Wednesday. I checked the hive today and found a queen cell chewed open. I checked for any capped brood (new or old) and saw nothing! Seemed the old brood deeps were full of honey not yet capped. There is a flow on, I guess the bees are filling in the old brood areas?


----------

