# Anybody want to post there experiances and management technics?



## susanknilans (Sep 21, 2016)

I've had Warre' hives (two or three) going for the past five years. I live in the Pacific Northwest where the winters are pretty mild, and I have all my hives under rain sheds. Because I am a minimal-intervention kind of gal, I run mine rather oddly. I just put the 8 bars across the top box, only one bar in each of the lower two boxes to stabilize the comb, stack up the three boxes, and let them be. So the bees get to treat it much like a tree hive and build any way they want. I watch only from the hive entrance, and I also create a main, round entrance in the top box. Most of the time I leave the bottom entrance closed but for the busy summertime. My bees all seem to prefer top entrances when given a choice. I only harvest when the hive perishes, and it's fascinating to see how they have constructed the comb!


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

susan
Interesting. Could you tell me what growing zone you are in? I was thinking of putting bees in the hive and adding hive bodies as I thought they needed them and keeping some swarm traps out for if they swarm and if they gave me something fine and if not no biggie. How do you get bees to repopulate your dead outs? Have you noticed any trends on how long the hives last before dead out with out intervention? I was thinking they might average 2 to 3 years but am not basing that on any type of experiance.

To show you how new I am, I am surprized that there is anything left in a dead out. What comes to mind is dead out due to starvation or loss of queen and robbing. I am guessing I may have this wrong. 

If you feel like typing I would be curious for a bit more of your experiance. If you don't feel like typing, believe me, I understand and if you can tell by any spelling mistake I make, you can see that I find typing quite a chore.
Thanks for the comments.
gww

Ps Its funny you mention the top entrance. My langs are rickity enough that they have a few holes in the actual hive bodies (either in a corner or one or two knot holes). I am using oak.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

How about losing a hive due to the mites when left alone?
If I don't control my mites there won't be any bees for me to tend to.
Finally they are under control quite easily. With a warre hive I don't think 
brushing the bees off will be easy. I would try the warre hive too if my bees can
keep the mites in check.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Beepro
Thats why I was thinking they might survive 2 or maby three years. I read on here somewhere where that was the crash time that newbees that don't treat get their surprize. I am actully not treating my first year and the guy I got my one hive from says he doesn't treat but more just replaces dead outs with splits. I don't have a phylosiphy that keeps me from treating but more of a lazy and curious streak the see what might happen. The guy I know has been keeping 6 through 10 hives for about 20 years. I tried not feeding and then got scared and started feeding and probly not enough but am still hoping for some bees in spring. Mostly I am just building bee boxes. As I watch and read and probly after a few set backs I might get better at the actual bee keeping.
But, is the mite crash usually two to three years in? I was thinking this year since I caught swarms and had one split that made a queen that I started with a pretty good brood break this year. Not saying I am right, just what my thinking was.
Cheers
gww

Ps I was thinking that even if you lost a hive due to mites, wouldn't it be robbed out pretty quickly leaving you nothing to harvest?


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I can only say everybody's beekeeping experience is different according to their 
geographical location and their local bee population. When I found out we don't have the
vsh and allogrooming bees here, I bought them from the reputable bee operation. I bought the
commercial queens from sources that keep the vsh stocks. So far everything is holding. When I
don't like to treat all the hives got manipulated to get the mite level down. 
From my experience if your bees don't have the mite resistant then the hive will crash on their second season
during the early Spring time expansion. And not the 2-3 years that we often read about here. Maybe I got the most
deadly mite strain so far. This is because the mites will multiply and grow along with the winter bees too.
When that happened to me I knew that beekeeping wasn't that easy. It was a big surprise alright knowing that if
I don't do something quick there will be no more bees left that year. No matter how you or they do it the mites must be under control in order to have some bees for you to keep. Set backs after set backs, this season I finally got it right.
Let's say your hive got mites and they died during the middle of winter. During that time the bees will not fly due to the cold weather. All your honey frames are still intact to be harvested or given to the dead outs in the Spring splits. The robbing you often read here is when the foragers are still active in the warm weather. Everybody's situation is different so nobody is right or wrong since our experiences are also different. Feeding is also an option here. Again it depends on your local forage. I chose to feed since they are all small nucs going into winter. Without feeding before the winter sets in they all will be dead because the big fat winter bees rely on feeding to get their winter fat reserves build up. Overwintering with the skinny bees will be detrimental to the hives during early Spring time expansion. Got this experience on my second year already. Reading oldtimer's post on feeding them syrup to overwinter makes sense to me. Now I gave them only Lauri's sugar bricks and my homemade patty subs. You just have to find out a better method to keep them alive during the winter months. And starting with a reputable mite biting source stock will do.
I finally found mine this year. Have you?


----------



## susanknilans (Sep 21, 2016)

Well, at only five years in myself, and as a treatment-free gal, I lose a lot of hives. My mentors had the same issues at the beginning, and then finally "found" bees that worked for them, and now have minimal losses. I populate my hives with swarms only. We are in the zone 8 growing region, and I'm in an urban yard in a small town that has lots of garden forage plus lots of blackberry and ivy fields. I find that ivy is the last nectar brought in very late in the year. It crystalizes almost immediately.

When my hives fail, they have done it in the second year. I'm fairly certain I have two problems going: mite syndrome, of course, and also, I don't believe there are many wild bees in my area, so I'm not sure I have good drones for my queens. I say this because in the springs when I have no bees, there are just about no bees in my garden, and it is full of forage. So I'm thinking I just don't have many good genetics flying around in wild bees. My approach is to just keep going, keep bringing swarms home for the empty hives, until I find a bee group that is able to survive and thrive on my little hillside.

Swarms are no problem for me, as I've got all my neighbors enchanted with the bees. They tell me all the time that their gardens and veggie patches have never produced so beautifully before my bees came.

Deadouts---as I get to them quickly before the robbers do---are a wealth of honey and wax. I cut it out, and use it to feed new swarms. I'm trying to get away from feeding when forage years are good, as the bees ought to be able to collect their own, but I do feed for a few weeks to get a swarm up and running. I leave many wax combs in the deadouts (after I freeze the whole box in my chest freezer to kill unwanted critters) so the swarms will have a good start. One year in my bee garden, my five hives produced 8 swarms, and I caught them all. Last year, my friend's four hives produced 15 swarms, and she caught them all. I have three of them, and three from a tree in a nearby town that swarmed like crazy this year. I have lost two hives as fall approached---to mites. I have five hives left that are going strong: one Warre', one log hive, one Cathedral-style top bar hive, and one straw-woven Sun Hive. The Sun Hive is the strongest and biggest, although she started the latest (July).

I don't believe I've ever lost bees to starvation. Just to mites and virus. But this year, in the hives that I lost, I suspected the queens---although they mated---never quite got up and running.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beepro
I don't know if I have found my mite biting bees or not yet but figure I have a hard row to hoe either way. My current cunundrum is deciding what to do with a partial built out medium. Take it off and freeze for later, put it on bottom or leave it as is and put a sugar block on. I have 16 lbs sugar blocks that I am going to put on each hive but haven't decided on when. I was going to adress that unbuilt frames yesterday but decided since it doesn't look like a freeze for the next ten days to just leave the hives alone and check later and maby by some miracle they might build out the box to the point of leaving it. I don't believe this will happen as the hives are no longer foraging at the same rate (probly differrent robbing pressures) and comb building is probly over. However why make a decision today that can be put off till tomorrow_.

Susan
Thanks for the reponce also. I found it interesting. I guess with my hives I will know more in spring. I don't know how many bees are around here but had 12 traps out the first year and cought nothing and 16 out this year and caught three. I may catch more nest year but wouldn't count on it. I fed a couple gal at the end when I should have did it in the beginning. I did kinda want to watch what happens with out me even though I knew there was some risk in doing so cause it is my first year and I wanted to see what forage my area was providing and when.

I am hoping that one lives well enough to maby get an early split for the brood break it provides so that I have a chance of out pacing the mites and still end up with bees with out buying anything. I would treat and may some day but do know a guy that has kept bees long term with out treating but also know that he does know his bees and how to react and so don't expect to have good results for myself. I also know though that even though I might kill some bees, I know of no other way to find out but just jump in and try some things. I shouldn't be trying to reinvent the wheel when others have the answer but find that if I still can't reconize what I am seeing that I don't know what is the bare minumum I can do with out trying it. Since my goal is not to have an over load of honey that I have to find a way to sell, I don't want to spend a hundred bucks per hive in sugar feed. When I figure out what works, I may change my mind on this but right now I am scared of making myself a full time job when I just retired from my other full time job. This is a hobby for me untill I learn a bit and then I will decide how much I really want to do. I like the learning though. I am not opposed to treating but also not going to try and start a buisness and so kinda just want to learn as I go. Beepro. It is going to suck if I make it through winter and lose everything in the spring due to mites. 
I really thank you guys for your responces.
gww_


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

My first 4 seasons I think too much and do too little.
This season I try not to think much and do more for the bees.
So I keep on building and making queens and hive expansion. Beekeeping
is so neat that what you do now is for the future seasons. Without concerning
too much about the drones and bees out there I just do my part. Soon I found out
that there are bees still out there even at this late in the season. Now I don't worry
anymore about my local bee environment. With that many hives surrounding you there are enough
drones and bees going around. Losing that many bees to the mites I would give up a long time ago. But you persisted while trying to find the bees that will survive your local environment. Over here we have no swarms to catch so have to rely on splitting and making new queens every season. 
For sure gww, if the mites overloaded your hives the Spring time expansion will be really slow just like what Susan had experienced "But this year, in the hives that I lost, I suspected the queens---although they mated---never quite got up and running." Now a mite infested hive will crashed over time if no treatment is allowed. The hive will be slow to build up and without the new bees to replace the older ones soon you'll have just an empty hive. I call this one the crash! Then the rebuild from other swarm colony. Now you have the crash and then the rebuild. If you are concern about another full time job just let the hive swarm away. Before you get to this stage though you have to make the bees first. One way to keep the bee population low is to put 3-5 bee frame into each individual nuc hive. They don't swarm and when the population start dwindling away you combine them all into one big hive again. Then you can try the tf option with so many hives at hand now. Try the carpenter bees to get the mite biting ability. I have read that his bees will hold. You can even buy a breeder mite biting queen too though a bit expensive. Try all option like I did to get a workable solution. 
To treat or not is at your option. If you like to experience what I went through in the Spring time then don't treat them. Consolidate them into 3-5 frames to keep everything warm and cozy. Take out the partial medium then put the sugar bricks on the top bars. Wait until it is too cold for the bees to fly then put on the sugar bricks otherwise they will just throw out the sugar. Keeping the hive solid without any empty space should keep them warm enough through out the winter months. Never leave empty space in the hive for the bees to tend to. They need to be in a compact cluster mode as possible. After the last broods emerged, I will be rearranging the frames 5 x 5 full of bees to keep everything compact again.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Beepro
I thought about moving the hive to a couple of nuc boxs but have decided to try and just leave them in the medium. As an alternative to them building slow in spring I think with only one medium and no drawn comb, if they build fast they will probly swarm due to lack of space. That was my motivation for trying to find some way to leave the partial drawn comb on the hive in some way. Plus for such a small hive they honey in the partial frames probly adds up to a pretty good percent of what they have to work with. 

I have been thinking about the sugar blocks and when to add. In Mo we can see 60 degree days in december but it can also go the other way. I also worry about openning a small struggleing hive while colder then 50 or 60 degrees. I have been thinking that maby I should put them on the first warm day in the middle of nov because it could get cold and stay so for awhile after that but could also stay really warm like it did last year.

I am at this time thinking nov.
Thanks
gww


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have added my sugar bricks almost 2 weeks ago. They are not like the mite treatment temperature 
dependent. The hives that are building up the winter
bees still use them. The hives not using them will carry the sugar out. It has been raining since so
they keep the sugar in now. Don't worry about when to add the sugar bricks. When they need them they
will keep them in otherwise will carry them out. During rainy and colder seasons they cannot. So time your
feed accordingly. At 27F I can still open the hive for a quick inspection out of curiosity. The broods will be fine
as long as they are covered with the attaching bees. They will get the chilled broods if no bees on the broods.
Here is another experience that I have never try before.


BadBeeKeeper said:


> I had to open some hives at +5F. Hives exposed for only a few seconds lived, hives exposed for 30 seconds or so didn't make it. Your mileage may vary. (Wind was blowing gale force at the time, so that no doubt figured into it as well.)
> 
> I've opened hives at temps in the 20s/30s to dump sugar without issue. But, the colder it is the more risk there is. My Carniolans will fly at as low as 17F...but not for long.


Arrange the medium anyway you like but make sure no empty space for the bees to patrol so that 
everything can be keep warm and cozy through out the winter months. A solid compact brood nest
will do. Here 3-5 frames compacted with the young nurse bees will overwinter fine.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

you might be hard pressed to stay TF in the intitial stages without known locally resistant stock with the types of hives you are using since they don't really lend themselves well to splits. The key and or common denominator in almost all TF strategies is to split your survivors, if you wait for swarms, you might get 1-2 a yr per hive that will be big enough to produce, in a moveable comb system, you can make your splits smaller so you get more of them and let the parent colony continue to grow and at the end of the yr divy up any extra resources. With time breeding from survivors should make the length of time individual colonies survive increase to a sustainable level where you are able to produce more bees than what dies each yr.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beepro
we still have not had a frost and the wether says we are still going to get a few 80 degree days over the next 10 days. I was thinking they may still forage a bit more though the only thing I see is cosmos in my garden and little white daisy like (asters?) in my field. 

Good to hear about small hives surviving cause two of my three are smaller then recomended for my area.

Harley. 

I am using langs for the bees I have now. If any of them live, I should be able to make at least one spring split. I just built the warre and also the long langs incase I get enough bees to experment with. I only bought one hive but it was from the guy who says he doesn't treat and has kept bees for 20 years. Maby it will work and maby not.

I did think that if the bees I have now live and I caught a swarm that I might throw some bees in the warre for the heck of it. I pretty much (once I see capped brood) don't really inspect any more except to open the hive and move a couple empty frames into the brood nest and check for space (foundationless). I started out trying to reconize more about the hive but couldn't really tell well at what I was seeing yet. I should have feed early on the swarms because they only got one medium each built although in the fall flow one of them did get around 70 percent or so of the second medium built. The other small one has over 30 percent of the second medium built but did it in a differrent fassion and started on several frames and built them about half full from top to bottom. So half a frame compleetly built out and half empty. 

I just wondered it anyone had any luck with warres and not movable frames. I figure they might be movable anyway with a knife along the walls cause my comb guides are the same as what I have in the langs but just with out the wood frame on the sides and bottoms. I have watched micheal palmer vidios and he inspect his langs lots of times by just looking from the bottom and pushing combs side ways to see. My ideal though was to just throw bees in and add space and see what happens. I think a guy could move the combs anytime he wanted to but moving them would not help that much if they don't fit anything else you are using.

I thank you guys for your advice. I also know I am dumb and so don't mind if I say something really stupid if people call me on it.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

gww said:


> I thank you guys for your advice. I also know I am dumb and so don't mind if I say something really stupid if people call me on it.
> Cheers
> gww



that's not dumb, that's un informed. IMO there is no such thing as a dumb question when it comes to new beeks we all have to start somewhere.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Being dumb is not a crime! Heck, I started all the way from the 
bottom with aggressive bees all along not knowing what I was doing.
Ended up killing both expensive hives. Oh, poor young nurse bees.
Gaining knowledge and information here had help much for my hive expansion.
Being able to ask questions that make people think is not dumb. If the dumb don't ask how
can the smart one think. Better than the ones who did it the wrong way (me) and not knowing the outcome. 
Before I can experiment a bit my hives number need to grow first. Getting the right bees to deal with the
mites is your first step. One local hive with a new queen is very promising this season. The housekeeping
bees get rid of the mite infested bees when they emerged. Dragging them out of the hive without any
regard. Along with them are the mites still attached on the young bees. I can see the hygienic traits finally take hold here. 
I was looking for the Cordovan queens from the commercial producer. They sent me the non-Cordovan queens. Instead of calling back and complaining I just let it go and see what I have. Now I can choose either one to graft this coming season. Finally some bees that can live with the mites here.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beepro and harley


> Being dumb is not a crime!


Thats good cause I might be up for the death penalty if it were.

The good thing about my situation is that I am just playing and trying to learn something. After I learn more I will decide more what I want to do.

I am a cheepscate however and don't see myself buying bees over and over and so am trying to get to some measure of success.

Other then that, I am going to just keep pegging away till I can figure out what tics for me.
I am thankfull for any help that I listen to or don't listen to even to my own detriment. I thank you guys for your responces.
gww


----------

