# It finally happened... varroa..



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Why surprised, all colonies have mites


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

They do? :scratch: Well, then, I suppose my depression on my birthday can go away. . . This is probably the ONE area I haven't had to "deal with" yet, so it's also why I'm terribly distraught. . . I guess it's time to hit the books, and research until I learn something


----------



## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Might not be too late in your climate for a treatment.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Consider treating with Oxalic Acid. Does not harm the brood, bees or brood! Do a search here on BeeSource regarding OA. You'll be pleasantly surprised by what many forum members are saying about it and the great results they have using it.......


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

If I don't get my varroa levels down in August/September, then in October I start having such varroa related issues with hive dwindling that trying to over winter them is almost a lost cause. 

I recommend you get your varroa levels under control and make sure they have pollen and nectar stores aplenty. Treat and feed as needed, it's getting quite late in the bee season.


----------



## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

In Dakota's defense, I too almost did nothing for mites this year, because info that I have read that, first year packages, need not to worry about treating because the lack of comb after install. Well, let me tell you, I started with a package and even split them and let them raise there own queen and the 2 breaks in brood cycle did very little. The hives have plenty mites as I just did a 24hr. Test and after a oav half fail, got alot of dead mites on my boards. Too many to count them all.


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

I'm so sad.. I did an inspection today, and for the first time I ALSO saw small hive beetles!!!!! Lots of dead brood, larvae, deformed bees, and I've now started seeing mites ON the bees (I'm not sure what "too many is, but per frame, probably 25 or so had mites on them). I'm not saying up until now I've done nothing. I've still been doing inspections, and this is the only time I've seen this... Problem is, I've been ignorant of "prevention" methods it seems. But that means something has changed in the last 3 weeks (last inspection. It's been a dearth here, so I've only been doing weekly check the window for population, and brood). I've attached some pics to show what I mean. I'm TOTALLY freaking out right now. I'm hoping that I can run out and use the oxylic acid treatment.. that seems to be the safest, and I know it won't get those mites in the cells, but those bees are already doomed. . . now I need to find a beetle trap for a top bar hive.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Don't get too sad and dejected, beekeeping is an ongoing learning experience for years to come. Hopefully you can get this hive turned around, but if not, you can get more bees next year and continue on in the enjoyment of beekeeping and the learning experience.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Dakota said:


> ...something has changed in the last 3 weeks...


Only thing that changed, is you noticed. Mites build up exponentially but 3 weeks ago there would have been plenty. 

One consolation, this happens to nearly all newbies. They read comments about treatment free beekeeping, how evil treatment is, and I've even seen people express their disgust about joining a bee club and discovering the club members were recommending they treat, so they left the club.

All this lulls new beekeepers into a false sense of security and they don't take much notice of mites till after it's blatantly obvious and too late, as I think it is in your case.

See what happens, here is the harsh reality. By the time there is dead brood, it means there are so many mites that nearly all the adult bees have been parasitized when they were larvae and may look normal but are weak, can't feed larvae properly, and don't live very long. Even if all mites were instantly removed from the hive, it can still die because they just cannot get enough healthy brood through in time to save the hive. They are also very lacklustre in defending the hive and this is probably why there are hive beetles.

Please do make your best efforts to save the hive, however be prepared for the worst, which is likely. If it dies, deep freeze all the comb to kill the SHB / wax moths so you can use the comb for a new hive next year.

If buying commercial package bees, be aware they will probably have to be treated. Or, you can requeen with a treatment free strain of bee, which is more likely to work, the more reputable the source you get it from.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Very well said Oldtimer.
Don't give up Dakota, keep on keeping on, it gets better as you learn more.


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

I'm going to fight this as fast and hard as I can. I've gone out and made myself a vaporizer, but I can't seem to find oxalic acid anywhere around here. Most people have just given me a blank stare, and one paint store said they carry it, but they are out. I was hoping to be able to nip this starting today, but it looks like the best shot i have is later this week. Thank you, everyone, for your help and support. I'm sort of very attached to these girls since they are my first, but if I lose them, I'll just have to keep my chin up and learn from it.


----------



## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

Look for Savogran Wood Bleach. It's oxalic acid.


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

DPBsbees said:


> Look for Savogran Wood Bleach. It's oxalic acid.


This is what I drove all over for looking to find, but only ONE place "carried" it, but out of stock. It's Sunday and most places are closed, so I'm going to call all the paint stores in the morning and see if any of the others carry it. Home Depot and Lowe's were a bust.

Also, I think I made, yet, another mistake making my oxalic vaporizer.. I used copper and sweated the fittings together... Then realized that I will be using a torch to heat up the acid crystals..... which, depending on temperature needed to vaporize the acid, may melt the solder too inch:


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Get some Apivar this time of year, don't mess around with the OAV. Looks like classic PMS, not sure if that is a hive beetle though, looks too long but it could be the angle of the picture. Brood will look like crap until the mites are cleaned up and a couple weeks after that, keep pollen sub and syrup on them and hopefully they have enough bees to bounce back if they don't try superceding the queen.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Ace Hardware carries Wood Bleach, if not in-stock, you can order online and pick-up at the nearest neighborhood store. They are local franchises.

Copper Crack-pipe style vaporizers work fine with a torch. OA is dihydrate, so liquifies, and the liquid water prevents the pipe from reaching solder melt temp. They are easier to use over time if you include a thread fitting and threaded cap for the reservior. The heavier metal in the cap mellows the heat, so it is not as flashy.


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

JRG13 said:


> Get some Apivar this time of year, don't mess around with the OAV. Looks like classic PMS, not sure if that is a hive beetle though, looks too long but it could be the angle of the picture. Brood will look like crap until the mites are cleaned up and a couple weeks after that, keep pollen sub and syrup on them and hopefully they have enough bees to bounce back if they don't try superceding the queen.


I'm sorry. You lost me at 'classic PMS'. Also, that beetle was squished sideways.. Its not that long.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Dakota said:


> I'm sorry. You lost me at 'classic PMS'.


 *PMS* or *Parasitic Mite Syndrome* is a condition that causes a honey *bee*colony to deteriorate and eventually dwindle away and die.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

JRG13 said:


> Get some Apivar this time of year, don't mess around with the OAV.


Both treatments are very effective........use the one that you can apply quickly.....


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

I think I can get OA way faster than anything else. I'd also like to read up and be more comfortable using the apivar, but I don't see why I shouldn't use it. The climate here in the Central Coast gives me at least two months before temps with be low where the girls won't fly all day, but afternoon temps will be 60s and right now in the 58 degree mornings they are working' and gatherin'. I think I may have enough time to turn them around. . . . or at least enough hope to try as hard as I can.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Dakota said:


> . The climate here in the Central Coast gives me at least two months before temps with be low where the girls won't fly all day,


November is the hardest month. By December, German Ivy and Euc is coming on. By January, Arroyo Willow and Alder, and Euc will explode. 

Give them sub. You want them to brood through the dearth in November.


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

I'm definitely going to get them pollen patties and keep them on sugar water (They have actually expanded comb in the 5 days that I've started feeding them). Right now, I can get Apistan strips much faster (or rather, more affordably faster) but I keep reading that most mites are resistant to that. At this point, I just want to start by killing all the mites I can ans quickly as possible and that would be using OA since I can that the fastest.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

OA will kill the adult mites on the adult bees, it won't get the mites that are breeding in the brood without multiple treatments. Apivar is a chemical but with a six week treatment will definitely get the mites. I'm using it this year and am quite impressed. You can get a ten pack at Mannlakeltd.com if you decide to use it.


----------



## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

In her situation, I would use MAQS. Fastest way to kill every mite.


----------



## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

Mite problems generally become very visible at this time of year.
As a rule of thumb,mite numbers double every month.
A foundress mite looks for a cell to enter.
In mid summer there will be tens of thousands of cells so only a small percentage of the pupae get damaged.
Late summer, the brood nest starts to shrink but the mite population is still doubling every month.
The mites enter the available cells and because there are not so many open cells now, a high percentage of the pupae get damaged.
It is at this point where a lot of non treating beekeepers realise there is a problem.
Mid summer you might have 1000 mites and 30,000 cells. The colony can sustain this as only a small percentage are damaged.
September it could be 4000 mites looking for a home in 8,000 cells so around half the pupae get damaged.


----------



## DaveInThePacNW (Jul 4, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Only thing that changed, is you noticed. Mites build up exponentially but 3 weeks ago there would have been plenty.
> 
> One consolation, this happens to nearly all newbies. They read comments about treatment free beekeeping, how evil treatment is, and I've even seen people express their disgust about joining a bee club and discovering the club members were recommending they treat, so they left the club.
> 
> ...


This is the best insightful advice I've read on this website since I started reading over a year ago. Thanks for sharing. I know so very little, but I've got people coming to me and asking questions and it's scary. I always tell them they must treat for mites because that is what a very successful beekeeper told me.


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

MAQS fastest way to kill every mite, and likely the colony. In my experience with formic acid, it is very hard on bees that have high mite loads. From the pictures, these bees have heavy mite loads. Personally I would use Apivar but I have used oxalic with success. Instead of feeding 1/4 L a day feed 3 L the check again in 7-10 days. Give them patties as well.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

so I finally found oxalic acid and treated them today. . . I still found at least a few live mites running around. . . I was hoping for mass mite destruction. . . Now just waiting for Apivar, but it looks like I need an "applicator license?" Crap, I'm screwed...


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

You can get the ten pack of apivar from mannlakeltd.com without an applicators license. The webpage is deceiving. In California, you can get the ten pack without the license. Purchasing any more than that at one time you need the License. Go ahead an order it, it worked out for me just fine. If you call them, they will tell you what I've just told you.

I ordered the ten pack with the 40lbs bee-pro pollen patties comes to just over $100 so got free shipping.


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

Is it a bad idea to treat with the Apivar while using Oxalic Acid in the meantime?


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I really doubt that you need to use both. 

I've not use OAV but one time last year, I waited to late to treat, and only treated once, so I'm not the one to ask about it too much. I think it's a good treatment to use and have ordered me up some oxalic acid to try it out next year. I think it's a little bit more involved for the beekeeper as you use it every five days or so for at least three weeks, five or six weeks would probably give even better results.

Apivar is a one time treatment, you put the plastic strips in the brood nest and leave it in for six weeks. Take it out and you're done. Less visits to the hives for treatment, but it is a chemical treatment where as oxalic is a more natural substance.


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

Honestly, at this point, i just want to do what I can to save them. I should have Apivar on the way, and I'm going to keep an eye on them for any signs of the workers' numbers dwindling.


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Dakota said:


> Honestly, at this point, i just want to do what I can to save them. I should have Apivar on the way, and I'm going to keep an eye on them for any signs of the workers' numbers dwindling.


If you have a vaporizer and OA, you don't need anything else. They will NOT continue to multiply if you treat them, wait a week and treat them again. You kill most of those not in the capped broad when you treat, so you give them 5 to 7 days, and treat again, killing most that aren't in capped brood. once you start treating with OAV, the numbers plummet. I like 3 treatments 7 days apart. That gets you thru the entire capped brood stage that was there when you first started treating with OAV. No need to buy Apivar if you already have OAV, you've got them in your sites, just finish them off.


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Dakota said:


> so I finally found oxalic acid and treated them today. . . I still found at least a few live mites running around. . . I was hoping for mass mite destruction. . . Now just waiting for Apivar, but it looks like I need an "applicator license?" Crap, I'm screwed...


What does "I still found a least a few live mites running around" mean. Mites are VERY difficult to see. I'm talking smaller than a pen head. Are you sure your not talking about small hive beetles? No insult intended, just want to be sure. OAV has no effect on SHB....


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Dakota said:


> so I finally found oxalic acid and treated them today. . . I still found at least a few live mites running around. . . I was hoping for mass mite destruction. . . Now just waiting for Apivar, but it looks like I need an "applicator license?" Crap, I'm screwed...


What does "I still found a least a few live mites running around" mean. Mites are VERY difficult to see. I'm talking smaller than a pen head. Are you sure your not talking about small hive beetles? No insult intended, just want to be sure. OAV has no effect on SHB....


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

Robbin said:


> What does "I still found a least a few live mites running around" mean. Mites are VERY difficult to see. I'm talking smaller than a pen head. Are you sure your not talking about small hive beetles? No insult intended, just want to be sure. OAV has no effect on SHB....


Absolutely.. the little pinkish/brownish oval things on the backs of the workers in the hive that are, at best 1mm across.


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

Robbin said:


> If you have a vaporizer and OA, you don't need anything else. They will NOT continue to multiply if you treat them, wait a week and treat them again. You kill most of those not in the capped broad when you treat, so you give them 5 to 7 days, and treat again, killing most that aren't in capped brood. once you start treating with OAV, the numbers plummet. I like 3 treatments 7 days apart. That gets you thru the entire capped brood stage that was there when you first started treating with OAV. No need to buy Apivar if you already have OAV, you've got them in your sites, just finish them off.


I just want to make sure I'm doing it right, as I dont' have a "real" 12V vaporizer... Just made one and based usage of the youtube video I saw using a torch and made sure to do "test runs" making sure the vapor was consistant and not burning into water vapor (which happened the first time I tried it).


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Put a sticky board under your hive if you can, simple plastic with petroleum jelly on it will do, and you will see the drop count jump into the thousands in the 24 hours following the first treatment. Second treatment, less than half, third and it drops to a couple hundred and you've regained control. A treatment while they are broodless really knocks them down.

A 12volt system can't really get OA hot enough for it not to work, as the small amount of OA passes thru the correct temp before it can get too hot. Not so sure about a torch. but the WATER vapor actually occurs BEFORE the OA is hot enough. So the fact that you saw water vapor doesn't mean it got too hot. Mine passes thru the water boiling stage with water vapor, before it starts to vaporize the OA. I can sit and watch mine and I do that to time how long I need to leave it on to complete the processes in the hive.


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

Robbin said:


> Put a sticky board under your hive if you can, simple plastic with petroleum jelly on it will do, and you will see the drop count jump into the thousands in the 24 hours following the first treatment. Second treatment, less than half, third and it drops to a couple hundred and you've regained control.


I don't' have a screened bottom... wont' that screw up the bees walking on it?

I wish I could just borrow one from someone to ensure I'm getting them the right amount and stuff. Eventually, I'll buy one.


----------



## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

I too was swayed by the very vocal treatment free elements in a local bee club. They were very convincing. Until this spring, when I opened up two hives to find parasitic mite syndrome in full swing. I immediately treated all my hives with formic acid in the form of MAQS. One of those hives never managed to get back on its feet and dwindled and died, one did recover but it took most of the summer.

I concluded that treatment free is a dangerously fuzzy term. Upon closer questioning, the "treatment free" folks in the club often use formic and oxalic acids, along with a host of IPM strategies.

I also concluded that although the measures I was depending on (essential oils in spring and fall feeds, screened bottom boards, grease patties, food grade mineral oil on top bars, sugar dustings and brood breaks) may work for others, I lacked the expertise, time and equipment to make them work for me. 

I live in an area lacking access to VSH lines, and which is flooded by the genes of New Zealand package bees every year (and in recent research, they seem to be fairly inept at dealing with Varroa on their own). So it is unlikely my wild mated queens will have superior VSH genes. I also get heavy drift early in the season of Varroa off nearby banks of pollination hives and some truly treatment free beekeepers. Until bees with a more robust VSH profile are bred and distributed here, I will be relying on formic and oxalic, and other "soft" remedies as they become affordable and available, to keep my bees ahead of the mites.


----------



## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

I always figured that if I can vaccinate my children, a little bit of chemical for some bugs isnt going to sway me from NOT treating them. 
I may be bad but I didnt even do a mite count......just treated. Used Apigaurd this fall. (man that stuff burns if ya get it on your hand!!)
Gonna try OAV come spring.


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

The numbers are way down in the hive right now. 3 weeks of apivar strips, and the mites continue to fall off in droves. Still managing to forage, but at this point, almost ALL of the brood nest has been backfilled, and I can't really see a strong population inside. I'm going to inspect again and make sure the queen is still laying, as last time I didn't see her, and the frames I checked were all filled with sugar syrup.


----------



## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

It's getting to be winter too so she may be slowing down. I think someone suggested feeding them pollen patties during Nov to keep the Queen laying.
By the way.....you got some darn good eyesight to be able to see those little bugs!!!!


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

Now, it's not THAT cold here (plus we had a heat wave just come in, so it's been in the 80s and 90s), but they seem to only have 3 or 4 frames of comb at the moment that AREN'T being backfilled with sugar syrup. I don't have pollen patties, but I have pollen substitute in a ramekin inside. They don't appear to be using it though. . . I saw a few SHB, and put a CD case trap inside. I'll be checking it this weekend. It's cold in the morning, and dark in the evenings, so I haven't been able to see how they are doing in the foraging arena (they were pretty active this last weekend, however).


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

If you only have 3 or 4 combs left that are not backfilled, then I think you need to stop the sugar syrup. The queen needs room to lay and the cluster needs open comb to cluster into and around when the weather turns colder.

Yes, pollen sub in a ramekin is not the same as a pollen patty or three set on the frame tops between the two bottom boxes. Try mixing that pollen sub you have (I'm assuming it's a powder) with sugar syrup to make a stiff patty and put it on the top bars of the bottom frames between the two bottom boxes, the bees will take it much better that way. Check your frames, you may already have pollen stores in there so pollen sub may not be needed with your fall flows starting.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

You are lucky to live where you do, the weather is mild and with what you've done, this hive may make it for you. If you can keep the queen laying, you should be able to get some young healthy bees to get this hive over winter. Don't let them backfill all the combs so that the queen has room to lay and the bees have the space to cluster, and make sure they have pollen stores or patties to help keep the queen brooding. Best of luck to ya.


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

Here's an idea. . . The newest 3 combs (two are not quite all the way drawn) seem to have been ignored as they backfilled the brood nest. Would it be beneficial to move them to the front of the hive to give the queen more laying room if it turns out they backfilled more than I thought?


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I really doubt they'll draw any more comb now, it's too late in the year. If they are mostly drawn then it may help. Maybe move the most empty drawn combs to the bottom center. 

Or just leave it and stop with the syrup, bees will move things around as they see fit for their needs. Winter is coming, they need to get things propolised up and sealed the way they like it, and too much messing with them now can hinder their work at getting things ready for winter. You'll have to be the judge of what to do with moving frames around, whether you think it is really needed or not, this late in the year.


----------



## Dakota (Apr 26, 2014)

Well, I wanted to inspect them to see if I can judge their numbers, and if the queen is still laying. I saw them bringing in lots of pollen this morning too. They have definitely filled up a lot of the brood nest with sugar syrup, so I'm glad I stopped feeding them this last week, BUT I saw eggs! And while there are still a few bees with damaged wings, I did see some new bees that looked fine (on the outside, anyway). Their numbers look WAY stronger than I had originally feared. I ended up moving a one drawn empty comb to the middle of the brood nest JUST in case they wanted extra space for eggs. I won't be bothering them again, and based on what I saw (with my VERY limited knowledge) I'm not as worried as I was a few weeks ago. I have 3 more weeks for the Apivar strips, and I only saw ONE mite on a bee (as opposed to 3 weeks ago when I saw them on a LOT of bees all over the place. . . like a horror movie). 

Thank you all again for your support. I'd probably have given up on them if not for all of you.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Good luck to you Dakota, it sounds good from here!


----------

