# Lost both hives



## will52100 (Jun 8, 2015)

I went in day before yesterday and fixed some comb issues, they were not too bad, now I wish I'd left them alone. That afternoon they were bearding pretty good so I left them for a couple of days. Went out there this after noon and maybe 200 or less bees in each hive, along with a few bumble bees, and SHB larva by the millions covering everything inside both hives, a little capped honey left, but brood comb and chambers empty and the wax combs look melted and eaten and a gross mess. I'm assuming I can clean the hives up and re use next year? These were package bees.

I have seem a few SHB's around, but the bees had been managing them fine. Did my going in upset them enough to make the leave and the SHB take over?

I've got one other hive, it's about a mile away at my father's house, a swarm I captured.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

Sounds to me like the hives got slimed by SHB larvae. It takes more than a couple of days for the beetle eggs to hatch into larvae and slime the combs like that, so your going in didn't suddenly draw beetles to the hives; they were already there, probably from the start. Did those hives have any beetle traps?

Yes, you can clean up the hive and reuse it next year. If there is any comb you can save, especially if it has pollen in it, freeze it and then use it as bait in your jar traps for your remaining hive.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

You can freeze the combs you wish to keep for a few days and kill whatever pest eggs and larva there are. New bees next spring should be able to clean and repair the combs. After removing the comb from the freezer, I'd apply a Bt v. aizawai spray to deter wax moth damage to stored comb.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't think it is you going in that caused them to fled.
I think it is the SHB infestation that caused them to took off. In the
future do more frequent hive inspection to manage them better.
So why wait until the next season to reuse this clean up hive box? Just go
over to your father's house to make a hive split. At least the feral hive will
have a better chance at defending their home. Let them clean up whatever
usable comb are remaining.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

will52100 said:


> I went in day before yesterday and fixed some comb issues, they were not too bad, now I wish I'd left them alone. That afternoon they were bearding pretty good so I left them for a couple of days. Went out there this after noon and maybe 200 or less bees in each hive, along with a few bumble bees, and SHB larva by the millions covering everything inside both hives, a little capped honey left, but brood comb and chambers empty and the wax combs look melted and eaten and a gross mess. I'm assuming I can clean the hives up and re use next year? These were package bees.
> 
> I have seem a few SHB's around, but the bees had been managing them fine. Did my going in upset them enough to make the leave and the SHB take over?
> 
> I've got one other hive, it's about a mile away at my father's house, a swarm I captured.


I don't understand your timeline. You said that you went in 2 days ago, but then you say you left them alone a couple of days. Timing here is important to tell what really happened. Also, you say the brood frames and chamber were empty. If there was no brood and the shb larva did not eat it, which would be evident, then these hives have been planning on absconding for at least 21 days (no capped brood). On the other hand if the brood is being eaten by the SHB, its different. Could be that your comb correction sparked robbing in both hives, which caused the bees to abscond and then the shb slimed them. Since both died out at the same time, I think this is a likely scenario. Also the presence of the bumblebees support robbing. Further, a stressed hive, one that is dealing with shb and varroa is more likely to abscond.

Be careful splitting this time of year, any weakness is an invitation for a shb overrun


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## will52100 (Jun 8, 2015)

I went in on the 24th, about 1pm. I checked them that after noon and they were bearding from the heat I thought. I went down again today, around 4pm, the 26th, and found the slimy mess. I did make a bit of a mess with the first hive, the second not so much. The hives are about 20' apart. I originally installed the bees on May 26, they had capped brood and some capped honey at the tops of the bars. Before I went in they were working on the 10th and 11th frames respectively. There's still some capped honey left.

What can I do to prevent this in the future?

The swarm I caught only has 6 combs, no capped brood, and little stores. I will be feeding them and basically leaving them alone. I checked the feeders today and there were 4 SHB in it, looked like the bees drowned them. Anyway, I'm thinking since I've got two quart jar feeders that I need to had a SHB trap under the main comb. Other than that, I plan on leaving them alone.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

In the future go get one of those SHB vsh hygienic queen.
That will keep the shb under control also. Building a rather strong hive instead of
2 weaker hives will keep them in check also. Yes, leave the other hive alone until they
grow stronger in order to make a split with the shbvsh queen. Feeding will help them a lot too.


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## will52100 (Jun 8, 2015)

I'm guessing from what I've read and researched that I set off a case of robbing. The thing is, it looked like they were taking care of the SHBs, and during inspection and fixing the comb everything looked good. Then a couple days later an ungodly mess.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

will52100 said:


> I'm guessing from what I've read and researched that I set off a case of robbing. The thing is, it looked like they were taking care of the SHBs, and during inspection and fixing the comb everything looked good.  Then a couple days later an ungodly mess.


From: http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/small_hive_beetle.htm#life

A female small hive beetle may lay 1,000 eggs in her lifetime, although data suggest that the number of eggs produced in one female's lifetime might be upwards of 2,000 (Hood 2004). The majority of these eggs hatch within three days;


So if robbing was bad and the bees were spending their time defending against robbers, the existing SHB could have had free reign to lay eggs. Also, the SHB lay eggs all along and the bees remove them and the larva as they hatch under normal circumstance.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

beepro said:


> In the future go get one of those SHB vsh hygienic queen.
> That will keep the shb under control also.


Do Tell! A SHB VSH Hygenic Queen? It's the holy grail.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

will52100 said:


> I'm thinking since I've got two quart jar feeders that I need to had a SHB trap under the main comb.


Yes, definitely get a trap set up, or even better, a couple traps. From last week to this week I've seen a big upsurge in the numbers of beetles caught in my traps.


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## will52100 (Jun 8, 2015)

I will be setting a trap up in the next couple of days, thanks


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Sorry for your loss. 

Will offer advice for next time. Forgive me for saying it but when I first re-started keeping bees last spring (2015) I had an SHB problem around the first day of summer. Asked for advice and one guy said, "I just keep em strong". It took me a year of pondering just what the heck he meant. I had package bees and "keeping em strong" meant nothing to me at that time. 
It means don't give them too much room to police and defend. Top bar hive...that means you have to be increasing and at the same time keeping them tight enough to patrol, control, and police the SHB. Means you have to be moving the follower boards around as they increase and really keep on top of the hives. Top bars are tough. I have two.


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## will52100 (Jun 8, 2015)

Thanks, I think I made a couple of mistakes right off the bat. One was location, it's a sheltered area that doesn't get a lot of sun, my thoughts were to protect them during the winter, but we don't get bad ones here in south MS. Another was the first top bar in both hives went too far to the end and they attached comb to the entrance board. Another was the design, since I'm using a bottom board with jars for feeders I left too much space for them. They looked like they were doing fine, but when I went in did a comb correction it probably pushed them over the edge and was the last straw.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

Did you give them too much room because you wanted the bees to have access to the syrup? If so, drill an access hole in your follower board or cut off an inch from the bottom like I do. You can always plug the hole with a cork or screw the bottom on if you need to. That way you can keep the follower tight so the bees can't cross comb and will be better able to control SHB's. The bees will find the syrup even if it's at the very back of the hive.


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## will52100 (Jun 8, 2015)

That and I didn't know exactly how much room to give them. The first hives I built only had 3 feeder mounts, the last couple I built have 4, and I moved the follower board a bit closer.

Good info on the follower board. I'm thinking a 1" hole so I can cork it if needed. I will likely do that to the first hives once I get them cleaned out and moved to a better location. I'm thinking under a young ash tree in partial shade. It's on a hill, so if need be I'll put up a wind break for winter. Also has the advantage of being a lot closer to the house.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

I have two hives with 3 jar mounts and they work just fine, although I do like the greater flexibility the 4 mount hives give me, so I think your problem was not having traps in place from the beginning and not keeping the followers close. The first jar mount closest to the entrance is always a trap in my hives. So long as your followers allow the bees to access the syrup on the other side, you should be fine feeding from the 2nd or 3rd jar mount. Good luck! Unfortunately, losing hives is part of being a beekeeper.


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## will52100 (Jun 8, 2015)

Thanks, it's been an education so far, hopefully I can learn fast enough to avoid loosing more.


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## Chuck Jachens (Feb 22, 2016)

Jon Wolff said:


> I have two hives with 3 jar mounts .


howdy Jon, do you have a picture of the jar mounts? I am having a hard envisioning them and how they work to catch SHB and also feed. Thanks - chuck.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

Chuck Jachens said:


> howdy Jon, do you have a picture of the jar mounts? I am having a hard envisioning them and how they work to catch SHB and also feed. Thanks - chuck.


Here you go, Chuck.
http://imgur.com/a/3YTzK?


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## Chuck Jachens (Feb 22, 2016)

Thanks Jon !!!
My feeder is attached to the back of the follower board. So far the SHB are kept at bay by the bees. I only see them on undefended comb before spring buildup. Mostly weak hives.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

You're welcome, Chuck. Glad your hives are doing well against the beetles. They are definitely opportunists that can quickly overwhelm a weak hive.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

will52100 said:


> Thanks, it's been an education so far, hopefully I can learn fast enough to avoid loosing more.


The learning curve with top bar hives is steep, so take heart, we've all been there. Take your two empty hives and after cleaning them, look for any cracks, crevices, joints, or spaces where the beetles can hide and lay eggs. When I built my hives, I didn't bevel the bottom edge, which left a lot of space for them to hide. I used chamfer molding to fill it, and then filled everything else with either propolis or a mixture of wood glue and sawdust. That will leave the beetles no place to go but into the traps.


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## will52100 (Jun 8, 2015)

Thanks, my father is a wood worker, makes swings and rocking chairs and such as a retirement hobby. The bottom edge is chamfered, every thing is tight. The only thing that's not is the top edge is left at 90 deg., but that leaves a sharp edge against the inside of the top bar and it looked like the bees were doing a good job of propolizing it up.

The one colony I have left is from a feral swarm I trapped and they seem to be doing well so far, in just over a week they've built nearly as much comb as my package bees did in a month. I've noticed that though there about the same size as my package bees, but there not taking near the amount of syrup. There also hauling in a lot more pollen.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

Feral swarms are the holy grail. I think you'll do well with them.


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