# Grafting verses queen rearing systems "kits"



## gibby937 (May 16, 2011)

I am thinking of trying to raise a few queens next spring. I have 20 hives at the moment. I wish to raise some queens to replace any winter losses I have and to requeen a hive that has swarmed to get a laying queen faster, then taking the capped swarm cells from the swarm hive and put in the finisher hive to complete. This way any possible production hive will have the best growth. Is this feasible as far as a hive that has swarmed is concerned? I do plan on curving the desire to swarm, but I want to be prepared just in case.
I have read both process of the "kits" and with grafting. I plan on only making a small number of queens at the moment. Please tell me if my thought process is off base; if I use the queen rearing kit I will have many more larvae than I need. Wasting bee resources and having to replace 110 cups each time. Also, i have plastic foundation and would have to alter a frame to make this work (again altering the donar hive somewhat). If I graft, I can take the amount of larvae that I intend to use (around 5) and start the process without altering the donar hive at all. I believe I can get the larvae from one of my hives in the yard with little issues. Question is, is grafting really that difficult to accomplish? I feel that I have eyesight and dexterity for this. Those that have grafted before, do you prefer the "kits" or grafting?


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## 100 td (Apr 3, 2011)

gibby937 said:


> I am thinking of trying to raise a few queens next spring. I have 20 hives at the moment. I wish to raise some queens to replace any winter losses ........ Question is, is grafting really that difficult to accomplish? I feel that I have eyesight and dexterity for this. Those that have grafted before, do you prefer the "kits" or grafting?


I'm a newbee, 1 have 1 hive, and I purchased 10 grafting tools from China for $8 and made my own queen cups by dipping a piece of dowel in some wax. I have 3 cells about to hatch tomorrow. Cheap as chips!
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/230686588253


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have several Jenter boxes and have raised a lot of cells this way. I also have grafted a lot. I graft more in recent times as it requires less trips to the yard and less of my time. But I enjoyed the kits. If I were doing it over, I would probably do the Hopkins method instead as it requires no special equipment and no grafting and would give me a chance to learn to raise queens before I learn to graft.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm#hopkinsmethod
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshopkinsmethod.htm


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I've used Nicot kit and it works well if a flow is on. In a dearth it's not as good for me. This year I tried out a Chinese grafting tool and I was very much impressed with the ease of grafting with it. I think I'll be using it exclusively from now on. I think grafting is easy if you have a tool that will pick up and release the larva with jelly easily. The Chinese tool is the best I've used.


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## gibby937 (May 16, 2011)

Thanks for the responses! I can't wait to give it a try next spring.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Check out On the Spot queen rearing: http://www.mdasplitter.com/

Tom


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I have never been able to get the OTS method to work for me. I get the best results from the Case/Hopkins method. My grafting skills leave a lot to be desired - so does my eyesight.


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

I made up a nuc shallow section with notches and support to hold a shallow frame sideways for the Hopkins method per Michael's description and even sought his guidance for "every other row".  When I created a calender to anticipate capped queen cells per Michael's "Bee Math", it occurred to me his "walk away split" has the same timeline. Since I didn't want to do more than populate my existing gear and that seemed to me a one step means of accomplishing same, I went with it and haven't had the need to do otherwise.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

I have found that grafting seems to be alot more sucessful than queen "kits".


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

If I wanted just a few cells, 10 or less, I would simply put a foundationless frame into the heart of the hive I chose for the queen mother. Kept an eye on it, and as soon as a comb had been built and laid with eggs, I would move it to my cell builder hive. If the cell builder were queenless and this was the only viable brood they had to raise queens with, and they had the resources to build many nice cells, I'd make sure that I eliminated any cells that were too close together, or outside the center of the cluster area, and keep only a few more than the target number I plan to need (some will usually be aborted).

When I want lots of cells, twenty or more, grafting is the only way to go. I can graft several hundred or more in just a short time. And I can repeat it as often as necessary to get the number of cells I want.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

gibby937 said:


> Please tell me if my thought process is off base; if I use the queen rearing kit I will have many more larvae than I need. Wasting bee resources and having to replace 110 cups each time.
> 
> Question is, is grafting really that difficult to accomplish? I feel that I have eyesight and dexterity for this. Those that have grafted before, do you prefer the "kits" or grafting?


You're sure about this, eh? I would think the opposite. You get all your set up ready to accept the larvae, and there are zero...not 110.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>You're sure about this, eh? I would think the opposite. You get all your set up ready to accept the larvae, and there are zero...not 110. 

 You are right. I've never consider 110 to be a problem. I have considered 0 to be a problem...


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Another good system to employ for beginners making a few cells is very similar to what Joseph describes - Dr. C.C. Miller's method. It is described in several beginning books, and the only differences are to cut the foundation into angles before drawing into comb, and then to cut it back to an angle so that eggs are on the diagonals before they go into the cell starter. I'd recommend using a Cloake board - sure makes it easy to convert from queenless cell starter to queenright finisher 24 hours after the frame goes in.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The Miller method:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmillermethod.htm


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thank you, Michael Bush! It was good to read that again.

I notice the modern interpretation is wireless foundation wax cut into points hanging from the top, as opposed to his original "starter patches" of foundation 4" from the sides. He gives his reason as wanting several different ages of larvae and let the bees choose which get to be queens, and he mostly cut away eggs at the outside edges before giving the frame to the starter.


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## MethowKraig (Aug 21, 2011)

I haven't had much success grafting. I am 64 and impediments include my vision, a tremor in my hands that is congenital (my grandfather, uncle, cousin and one son have it), and the fact that I have spent my life as a carpenter and have hands like leather.

I have developed a variant of the Cloake method. The Cloake method uses grafting, but I use the Nicot system to produce the larvae.

There are some tricks to the Nicot system (the Jentner is very similar) and if you want, I can give you the tips.

"Met-How Kraig"


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## Sharpbees (Jun 26, 2012)

The ez queen system sold by dadant isn't bad for just a few queens, especially if you have trouble with grafting or with the small cups in the Nicot system. It is basically a nicot system but the laying cage inserts are in strips that make it easier to place them into cell cups. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone wanting huge amounts of queens but for the hobbyist just needing a few at a time it works pretty good.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Gibby - Grafting is not that difficult to learn. My third frame I grafted had 17 takes, and that was using chop sticks! I mostly killed the grubs those chop sticks, and have since used hooks, paddles, Chinese tools, and a 3/0 artist's sable paint brush.

At first, the Chinese tool was easiest, but after a while, the hook is faster. I use the hook with artificial queen cups primed with royal jelly. I use the hook for grubs about 90 to 96 hours old from egg-lay, and I can use the Chinese tool for younger grubs - 80 to 86 hours old. I use a loupe, and I try to watch and make sure not to flip them over. I have poor up-close eyesight, but good hands.


Try every method you can learn about and keep meticulous notes. I doubt there is a such thing as too many queens. You'll get good at a couple of methods, and find out what works for you. I think it is effort well-spent. However you get your best quality queens, that will be your best method.


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