# Why my colony is collapsing?



## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

Not sure why my first bee hive is colapsing.
I got a new one and the bees are dissappearing.
I got them in April, and took photos and video during inspections.

http://imageshack.us/a/img546/4512/firsthive1.jpg









Here is another look at one of the frames where the bees had abandoned it.

http://imageshack.us/a/img13/1567/firsthive2.jpg










There is virtually no bees on this frame when before there were so many 

that you could not see frame under.

This hive is new created from all new construction.
http://imageshack.us/a/img404/6795/newconst1.jpg










I did notice this dead and diseased hatchling
http://imageshack.us/a/img580/4642/deadhatchlingedited1.jpg









I am not sure why the hatchlings in the brood chamber did not hatch and 

why there are dead ones?


Queen Cells:
http://imageshack.us/a/img600/2713/dscn6928m.jpg









Not sure why the emergency queen cells. I wonder if the original queen 

was killed or got injured. Maybe there is no new eggs being laid and the 

bees are in survival mode.

A look at a frame with an insect on it
http://imageshack.us/a/img211/923/dscn6932n.jpg
Note the white uncapped larva. I wonder if that means the bees had 

abandoned this frame?









A general look at 1 of the frames
http://imageshack.us/a/img259/5879/dscn6933sm.jpg










I am not sure what interpretation I am to make.
My observations are telling me that no new bees are hatching in the brood 

chamber. All those capped brood cells indicate something happened in the 

hive about several weeks ago when they should have been emerginge from their pupa stage.

How do I determine if the frames in the brood chamber have dead larva/pupa in them?

I am going to take several steps based upon my observations.
1). Reduce the size of the hive. The interior chambers consist of 3 

sections. The brood chamber, the 2nd chamber where none of the frames 

have been developed, and the 3rd honey super that has no frames in it.

2). Eliminate top entrance between the screen top and the roof. My screen ceiling has a bee space that allows the bees to get in and out. I will elminiate that area so they will not have to deal with defending a the top of the hive.

3). Clean and inspect for other insects. 

4). Rais the hive up from the ground. The bottom board is screwed into 2x4s. That gives it entrance a 3 1/2 inch clearance. I will rest the hive on 4x4's so that will help to prevent other insects from crawling inside.

5). I will spray the combs with sugar water to get the bees to start to attend to the other frames.

Any and all ideas welcome!
Thanks


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Do you think that you still have a queen? Is there any evidence that she is laying any new eggs at all? Are they starving? I don't see any stores at all in the picture.

Are there any live bees emerging from the spotty brood frame, or do they all seem to be dead?

There is a live newly emerged bee right next to the zombie - do you see a lot of those or just the one?

This looks pretty bad- maybe unsalvagable. Mostly depends on if you have a queen or not. I probably would not requeen a hive like this. Close all but the main entrance and reduce it to the smallest size, remove unused frames to as small as possible. Don't spray sugar water - instead feed 1-1 sugar syrup.

I don't know what the root of the problem is, but starvation, queenlessness, and robbing look like possibilities.


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## baldwinbees (Mar 2, 2010)

older bees in package colony dying off and there aren't enough bees to cover the brood laid is a possibility


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The fact that they have done some "cupping" indicates to me that something must have happened to your queen. I dont see any signs of feed in this hive as there were in the May picture. Those frames of brood should typically have a rim of honey/feed around them and the exposed pupae indicates to me they may have been "sucking brood" which means they may have been near starvation. This could easily lead to a queenless condition. Are there dead bees on the bottom board or near the entrance?


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

My guesses:

1. starvation
2. chilled brood
3. If there is a bunch of dead brood the bees that are left may have absconded.

How many frames do you have that actually are covered with bees? If you have no queen and no eggs you'll have to start over.


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

No there are no dead bees on the entrance or in the bottom of the frame.

Also I have been feeding them sugar water ever since I first got them.
So this chart shows their consumption and I thought the spike in consumption meant that the young brood were beginning to feed as well.
http://imageshack.us/a/img32/3860/sugarwatcon.jpg


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> Do you think that you still have a queen? Is there any evidence that she is laying any new eggs at all? Are they starving? I don't see any stores at all in the picture.
> 
> Are there any live bees emerging from the spotty brood frame, or do they all seem to be dead?
> 
> ...


I think I saw a few bees that looked lighter as if they were more gray than darker. I didn't really notice those ones.
I don't think they are starving because I had a polin patty in there for them and the sugar water was always being consumed.


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

Tim B said:


> My guesses:
> 
> 1. starvation
> 2. chilled brood
> ...


There was a clump of bees between 2 of the frames. 
I will post a video of my inspection in a few minutes


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

Feed them there is no honey or store on any of those frame's. If the is nothing coming in the queen will slow down or stop. Put some 1-1 syrup.


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk3X911qOiE
A link to my YouTube video of the inspection.

I will go outside and make some of the changes people have suggested.

Thanks!


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I sure no expert but you've got a screened bottom boards and a fully screened inner cover. Maybe someone more experienced will post about that but I've read that bees need to keep the hive around 95 degrees F and if it's not that hot they generate heat to make it that hot. I'm going to guess they've eaten all the honey they've stored trying to keep the hive warm and that the brood has been chilled from not having enough bees to cover it and warm the hive to the correct temps.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I'd be interested to hear whether you noticed any bad smells or not. Don't give up if you lose this hive. Its discouraging I can imagine. I suspect you might have idiopathic brood syndrome, wish we could be more help. 

When you get things going again, make sure the frames are touching the adjacent frame at the frame ends. That will eliminate that non-standard comb configuration right in the middle of your hive. When the comb is built like that, it would be easy to crush a bee caught between the foundation and the burr comb as built by the bees. That would ordinarily not be a big deal.....unless it is the queen that gets crushed. Never give up!


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

wow i dont have answers for ya but it was interesting that you had the second brood box when the first one didnt seem to be drawn out much. maybe a little demoralized. also, did you have that table thing on since u installed the bees ? never seen a set up like that before.

what a bummer man. keep going for it ... it'll work out next time i'm sure.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I can't say with any degree of certainty what happened here but whatever it is has already happened. A healthy growing package installed on foundation might well need a pint of syrup every day to continue to grow and build foundation unless you have had an excellant buildup flow. Those frames had feed or honey in them not so long ago and now they are empty. I'm still guessing they ran short on feed and we are seeing the results. Nothing else that I am familiar with fits the evidence....that's my story and I'm stickin to it.


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

tommysnare said:


> wow i dont have answers for ya but it was interesting that you had the second brood box when the first one didnt seem to be drawn out much. maybe a little demoralized. also, did you have that table thing on since u installed the bees ? never seen a set up like that before.
> ....


This is my first hive. I am not sure when the right time was to put the 2nd brood box on. I figured they would go up instead of going out as fast. They built the first set rather quickly during the colder weather.

What table thing? The screen bottom?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

When you say sugar water - how much sugar and how much water?

And by the way - good job with the pictures, very helpful. After more thought I'm leaning even more to starvation. I don't know exactly what your weather is like, but if a package gets a lot of brood going and then it gets chilly or rainiy, and they don't have Plenty of carbs - Plenty with a capitol P - they won't be able to both generate heat and feed the brood. If it's cool enough they might not be able to get off of the brood to go get the syrup depending on how you are feeding it to them. Ventilation is good, but unless it is pretty warm you might be over doing it. 

Also If they are getting robbed by another nearby hive then it's impossible for them to keep up. Stick with one small entrance until they can hold their own in a fight.

Make sure that your sugar water contains at least one pound of sugar per each pint of water. 

And whatever happens you should join your local bee keepers association - chances are they will be able to help you alot as you get started. They can probably even hook you up with some more bees if these don't work out.


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

A look at my bottom board. I should have swepted the debri into a plate to study.
Not sure how many mights would have been on it.
http://imageshack.us/a/img268/7094/dscn6961sm.jpg









I did observe some robbing and other insects (ants, weavles).
This 1 is a cross between an ant and weavel and 1/8 inch in length. They were in the feader in the cracks. The been had been actually trying to attack them, as they were bunched up on the corner of the feader for the last week.

I replaced the bottom brood cover for cleaning and sweeped out the screen bottom


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> When you say sugar water - how much sugar and how much water?
> 
> And by the way - good job with the pictures, very helpful. After more thought I'm leaning even more to starvation. I don't know exactly what your weather is like, but if a package gets a lot of brood going and then it gets chilly or rainiy, and they don't have Plenty of carbs - Plenty with a capitol P - they won't be able to both generate heat and feed the brood. If it's cool enough they might not be able to get off of the brood to go get the syrup depending on how you are feeding it to them. Ventilation is good, but unless it is pretty warm you might be over doing it.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I went to my first local beekeeper association meeting last month. I tried to find a local mentor but it was quicker to post my questions. I do have someone who got me into beekeeping. I messaged him, but he probably won't see the post till tomorrow.

Yes they are probably starved, and some robbing happening.
I cleaned up those issues, and I am going to try and get the temperature problem fixed by securing a better roof. I was using a top board but over my screen system.
Instead I am axing the screen and using the top board under the roof.

Sugar water, I measured it by volume I need to do it by weight like you are saying. That is what I will start to do.

Thanks!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Anybody else here think there might be a case of EFB going on here? 

The blow ups of the brood pattern as well as the shrunken brood lead me to believe this is a case of EFB or some viral thing. Sac brood?


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Too much space, too much ventilation for a new hive, get rid of the entrance feeder, the second deep was not needed yet, the cluster couldn't access the pollen patty.

I hear lots of traffic close by. Were the field bees killed by the traffic?

A starving(lacking nectar/honey and or pollen) hive will also loose its population fast but will normally have dead bees piled up on the bottom board.

I didn't notice EFB but definately seen chilled brood.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Beeslave - what are the sure signs of chilled brood that you see?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I can't tell for sure if you suffered from chilled brood or something else. I think there are several issues going on which individually may not cause terrible problems but when combined sure aren't helping!

They include:

- frame spacing: frames should be pushed up tight against one another. You may have had to temporarily remove one frame in order to have your queen released from a queen cage. Once the queen was released, you should have cleaned up any extra comb that was built, removed the now empty cage, and tightened up the frames. (replacing the one you might have removed to make room for the queen cage)
- 2nd brood chamber should not have been added until the first was 80+% of frames were used and I like to see all comb drawn. Move frames 1 & 10 in to positions 3 and 7 (but don't insert them into the middle of your brood) so that they will get drawn out if they are being ignored on the outside.
- the screen on your hive bottom does not appear standard sized. You may have a sound reason for using the size mesh you did but if so I don't know what you were trying to accomplish. Typical screened bottom boards are designed so that any mites on bees that fall off (for whatever reason) fall out of the hive - some have a sticky board underneath so you can monitor mites that do fall out of the hive. I use solid bottom boards and don't think a new colony benefits from as much ventilation as you were providing. This is a somewhat controversial belief.
- screened top covers are primarily used in areas where it is very hot and when the bees are being moved. If neither of those cases apply, I think the bees had too much ventilation.

I think that at some point the queen was killed (inadvertently by you in all probability); this would have caused the hive population to stop expanding. Excessive ventilation could certainly lead to chilled brood. I can't tell from the pictures if any of the dying brood is melting (dissolving) which could indicate a more serious brood disease.

I encourage you to get involved with the club, participate in a bee school if they have one over the winter, and try again next year. I think this colony is too far gone to be saved, and that some of the resources (drawn comb) can be reused to give new bees a head start next year.


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

Thanks for Everybody's comments. I have not given up, and neither have the bees.
http://imageshack.us/a/img706/1619/newtopy.jpg
I built a new top board to keep them warmer and less drafty.
I will create a new bottom one today but ran out of time last night.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Honey-4-All said:


> Anybody else here think there might be a case of EFB going on here?
> 
> The blow ups of the brood pattern as well as the shrunken brood lead me to believe this is a case of EFB or some viral thing. Sac brood?


Only if he noticed a foul smell.....That is why I asked about the smell above. The open larva do show some variation in color, but are almost too uniform in color to be symptomatic of EFB. But, the spotty brood pattern and dead larva give one pause. I do, however, put a lot of weight in whatever Jim Lyon says.....there is no food visible on that frame. Question is, what happened before they ran out of food? That is why I thought IBDS sounded like a good possibility.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I might amend my opinion a bit to WHY there is no feed. The screened bottom and entrance feeding may have contributed to a robbing event and the resulting sharp drop in the graph. Such an occurrence results in a dead queen most of the time.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

jim lyon's signature said:


> "Ve are too soon olt und too late schmart."- A nameless German philosopher


At my age, I have a goal to be smart two mornings in a row....


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

tommysnare said:


> wow i dont have answers for ya but it was interesting that you had the second brood box when the first one didnt seem to be drawn out much. maybe a little demoralized. also, did you have that table thing on since u installed the bees ? never seen a set up like that before.
> ............


Yes that "table thing".. It rains a lot here in Vancouver WA. I put that there to keep the front entrance dry when it rains all the time. It might help with colder nights when there might be a frost condition. If there is less moisture in the hive that is a good thing.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

IMO the girls had not enough food and too much space. 1 frame of brood needs at least 1kg of food. Next time feed only from the inner cover hole 1:1 syrup with an upside down glass jar as much as they take. Place a sheet Styrofoam on top of the inner cover and cut a hole for the glass jar. This is good for the cold days and for the hot days also.
Hold the bees tight and give them one foundation at the time. As soon as the foundation is almost finished and the first food is stored, give them the next one. Use a sheet of Styrofoam, covered with plastic foil to make the 10 frame box small to a 5 or 6 frame (whatever they need), and move the foam to the side when they need more space. 
Without a nectar flow (or sugar) over a long time, the queen stopped laying and therefore produce less and less pheromone, during summer a signal for the bees to swarm. It might be happen here, because they started with queen cells. To cold during night, not enough bees to warm the brood... they gave up.
BSW, never ever feed a colony from the entrance. If you drop some syrup, or the lid is not 100% tight, bees start robbing. Always feed inside and reduce the entrance with high density Styrofoam. Give them an two finger wide opening, if the bees needs more, they shred the foam to the opening they need.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

I think this is just a case of CCD and the bees that are left are the field bees that were out when the hive left and the bees that have hatched since leaving. Nothing you could have done but a couple of things for the future.
1. RIGHT NOW, I would take all the frames off except for those that have bees. IF that was a queen you pointed out, leave her and the rest of the bees on 2 frames. Take a piece of plywood and somehow block off the rest of the hive from these frames, maybe even take the others out and put in the freezer til you need them. In essence, you are making a nuc in a box. NOTE: I don't think that was the queen. If it wasn't and that's all the bees you have left, then you'll probably just need to chalk this one up to "oh well, there's always next year".
2. Do not add the top empty box until they have filled the entire bottom box. Having lived in the NW, your bees will need all the help they can get staying warm thanks to how cool it gets after the sun goes down. Smaller spaces with less bees = the bees stay warm. 
3. Sugar water is good. Sugar water with Honey B Healthy is better. I also tend to err more towards the "more sugar, less water" on my feeding with my build up feed tending to be more like 55% sugar/45% water. The Honey B Healthy really helps them feed well. Ignore the naysayers on this. You need all the help you can get right now. 

I could be wrong on my observations but it sure looks a lot like a hive I had a couple of years ago that was strong and then all of a sudden there was a handful of bees and tons of sealed brood that couldn't stay warm once the bees left.


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

Thanks for everyodies suggestions
I made a few changes
First I got rid of the entrance feeder. It was starting to have leaking problems and I was finding drowned bees. There was also robbing happening from some weavles and other insects. I got an internal feeder and as soon as I put it in 2 bees landed on it and got some sugar-syrup solution. When I opened it today I did not notice any, but I think they were feeding earlier. It holds ~96 ounces. It is in the bottom of the photo.

I took 1 clean frame and put it into position #3 hopping that the bees will draw it out and if I still have a queen, she will lay eggs again so I can get restarted with a growing hive this year.

http://imageshack.us/a/img32/184/l9nq.jpg


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I used to live in Northern Whidbey Island, so I know what kind of weather you have in your area. If your syrup/feed is not constantly 50F or above, the bees will not be able to eat it, so it will do them no good.

I also noticed that initially, you had enough bees to occupy three or four frames, but had given them twenty and the space that goes with that. Sort of like a small family trying to live/occupy an entire medieval castle, without any outside assistance.

What could help, is to remove the burr comb that is keeping your frames from fitting together properly, create a "follower board" from foil lined styrofoam, as has already been mentioned. Use the follower board to limit the bees to just the drawn combs, for now, plus the feeder. Move the feeder until it is right next to the first comb with bees. Keep replacing the feed, morning and evening, with very warm feed, like 90F warm. Cover the screen of the SBB (screened bottom board). I would also use a piece of foil lined foam board, tight beneath the screen, to help reduce air infiltration, while they are regaining their strength. For the small number of bees you have, your nights are way too cold for them to eat the syrup, especially with an open SBB, and a low population. The syrup is getting too cold at night and not warming up enough in the daytime for them to be able to eat it. Your daytime highs are my nighttime lows, and my daytime highs are over 100F. By August, you may have halfway decent temps, but not yet. These dynamics I mention can change for the better once you have a decent population, and growing. And they do need lots of warm sugar syrup, since it rains so frequently their foraging is limited.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Honey-4-all, aka Phil(me thinks) got it right. I see efb and sacbrood. Efb happened when we got all that rain, towards end of may early june. No pollen stressed the heck out of the bees, they broke down. In my experience efb seems to shorten the lifespan of adult bees. That is why there a little to no adults around. Then the brood got chilled cause of the lack of adults. That's what I see. The event started with poor weather.

The hive imho is irrevocably damaged and is probably already dead. Get more bees soon. The feeder should be close to the remaining bees so it is easier for them to get the food, assuming that I am wrong in my assessment. The heat generated by the bees will warm the syrup making it easier to consume.

Jean-Marc


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

I think I saw my QUEEN in the hive today.
I took this picture. My next step is to manually clean out the chilled brood and replace giving them a new start.
I hope the queen will start to lay eggs again.
http://imageshack.us/a/img825/1794/iec0.jpg


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

The bee to the right is not a queen, but I do see two emergency queen cells. The top one was the cell in which the queen emerged. You can tell that by the nice round hole. The queen cell on the bottom housed a queen that was killed still imprisoned as the cap is intact.


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