# Is their a new way to treat mites?



## Cabeekeeper

Is their a new way to treat mites. Just wondering because they took Taktic off the market.


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## hpm08161947

Apivar seems to just gotten approved or is soon to be approved for use in all 50 states..... It's not new... but it's approval is for NC.


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## gmcharlie

I used Mite away quick strips last fall and was pleased.


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## dixiebooks

Just FYI, not a recommendation as I don't use this: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100608323 -js


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## Cabeekeeper

Apivar is too expensive and you have to put two strips per hive


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## Ishi

Mitaban from a vet.


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## Honey-4-All

Cabeekeeper said:


> Is their a new way to treat mites. Just wondering because they took Taktic off the market.


Why don't you have someone toss it over the border fence like the rumor suggests many other folks happen to be doing. 

Did hear that Johnson and Johnson is is developing a new one called "TWEEZER" through their subsidiary division PICKnTOSS INC. From the preliminary reports the product works pretty but the contra-actions include stab wounds and crunched exoskeletons during application by those who failed to have their eyes tested recently.


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## hpm08161947

Ishi said:


> Mitaban from a vet.


Yup.... that is an Amitraz based solution if I have heard correctly. I am sure soaking strips in that stuff would be an offlabel usage.....


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## wildbranch2007

Ishi said:


> Mitaban from a vet.


yup and it requires a prescription to get it according to my search. think a high payed vet is going to stick his neck out?


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## hpm08161947

wildbranch2007 said:


> yup and it requires a prescription to get it according to my search. think a high payed vet is going to stick his neck out?


Tell him/her your dog has mange.... 

Wonder if Amitraz powder can be bought straight out... if so preparing your own solution should not be too difficult... Apivar is really taking advantage of the situation.


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## Trevor Mansell

I would never do it , but you can buy Taktic from Australia. The Farm Store .com is the place.


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## wildbranch2007

hpm08161947 said:


> Tell him/her your dog has mange....


and how many dogs would you have to have to treat a few thousand bee hives, vets I know would ask you to bring the dog in so they could put it out of it misery...


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## rainesridgefarm

It is interesting that the store in Australia lists treating mites in the U.S.A. as the big user of this product.


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## jim lyon

I will continue to maintain that those who insist on using Amitraz in such an off label manner in who knows what concentrations put our entire honey production industry at risk. Unfortunately there are those who maintain that if a little is good certainly a lot must be better. There are plenty of good safe alternatives to such off label usage of Amitraz. Honey has an excellant image for purity in the publics eye, let's keep it that way.


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## Keith Jarrett

Cabeekeeper said:


> Is their a new way to treat mites. Just wondering because they took Taktic off the market.


Really, they took TAKTIC off the market....

Really, they were short this year in the almonds with no taktic available, But the year before taktic was available and we were long on bees in the almonds.

Really, they had beekeepers jumping on TV and NOT one mention TAKTIC .

Really, they are blaming farmers for thier troubles.

Really, it's time to start telling the truth.


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## Michael Palmer

I have a friend who will remain nameless. Professional apiculturist. Works with beekeepers, fruit growers, and regulators. At a meeting of regulators last year discussing amitraz, he said if you want to see CCD, take away Taktic.

They did and what did we see?


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## Oldtimer

In my country Apivar is widely used. Here's a few of my personal observations.

You need 2 strips *per brood box*, ie, in a 2 brood box hive, you need *4 strips*. The mode of action is not to kill mites outright. What it does is paralyze them, they fall off the bees and die of starvation over a few days. If you look at the floorboard of a hive with mites dropped by Apistan, the mites will be dead. If Apivar was used, many of the mites will still be kicking.

Because of this somewhat round about way of killing mites, some of them do manage to make it back into the brood cells and lay eggs to produce another generation. You don't get all the mites the first brood cycle. I've found to really get mites down close to zero, the Apivar strips have to stay in the hive 10 weeks. I have spoken to the manufacturers about this and they told me that at 10 weeks, the strips are still leaching around 1/2 the Amitraz they did when they were new, which is enough, but at the 10 week mark they should be removed to prevent underdosing & encouraging resistant mites.

Using Taktic, solves short term problems, and cheaply, sure. However the Apivar strips are designed to release a steady and constant amount of Amitraz into the hive for a sustained period, eliminating mites, and in a way least likely to encourage mite resistance to Amitraz. Expensive? Sure. So is resistance, when nothing works & everybodies hives are struggling/dying.

There is a lesson to be learned from Apistan. It was not incorrect use of Apistan that caused the speedy development of resistant mites. It was the misuse of agricultural chemicals containing the active ingredient Fluvenate, just dropped into hives any which way for a quick mite kill, that allowed resistant mites to develop as dosage was not controlled.

In my country, beekeepers did not use any form of fluvenate other than Apistan strips, which are designed to give proper dose rates to a hive. 13 years after mites arrived here, Apistan is still virtually 100% effective, except for one part of the country where a group of beekeepers misuse it for years (used 1/4 dose), which allowed the hardy mites to survive.

The take away lesson, is that Apivar is expensive, but used right and not abused should give US beekeepers many years protection. But if any random beekeeper is using Taktic at whatever dose rate he sees fit, development of resistance will be speedy, and soon you will not need to worry about how to smuggle in the Tactic, as it won't work anyway, and nor will Apivar strips.

Just my 2 cents


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## max2

Trevor Mansell said:


> I would never do it , but you can buy Taktic from Australia. The Farm Store .com is the place.


Quite amazing to see this http://www.thefarmstore.com.au/catalogsearch/result/?q=taktic
Taktic is actually meant to kill Ticks not mites. I wonder what it does to the honey?


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## hpm08161947

Oldtimer said:


> The take away lesson, is that Apivar is expensive, but used right and not abused should give US beekeepers many years protection. But if any random beekeeper is using Taktic at whatever dose rate he sees fit, development of resistance will be speedy, and soon you will not need to worry about how to smuggle in the Tactic, as it won't work anyway, and nor will Apivar strips.
> 
> Just my 2 cents


I wonder why we have not seen Amitraz resistance already..... maybe no one speaks about it.... shhhh.


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## max2

Thanks for your 2 cents, Oldtimer. Good advice indeed.
I work regularly in Cambodia ( in Agriculture - nothing to do with bees). Farmers are sold chemicals they don't understand, where they can't read the label ( if they can read at all) and the result is as described by Oldtimer above. In the west we have no such excuses. There is a place for chemicals but they will only work if used as recommended.


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## Ishi

You do not soak strips. it is a new treatment for BEE Keepers no blue shop towels involved. If you want the study done on it and how to apply srnd me a PM.



hpm08161947 said:


> Yup.... that is an Amitraz based solution if I have heard correctly. I am sure soaking strips in that stuff would be an offlabel usage.....


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## Oldtimer

hpm08161947 said:


> I wonder why we have not seen Amitraz resistance already..... maybe no one speaks about it.... shhhh.


I was waiting for someone to say that LOL. Cos I don't know how long Taktic has been getting used.

But Amitraz resistance by varroa mites has now been recorded. Mostly though, it's still working. But uncontrolled dosing WILL speed resistance, just what time frame that will be who knows.


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## Oldtimer

I'm interested Ishi, can you link here?


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## Ishi

wildbranch2007 said:


> yup and it requires a prescription to get it according to my search. think a high payed vet is going to stick his neck out?


Did you call a vet and ask ? Its good to have the study done by aBEE lab in hand when you ask. I don't think that my vet is low paying but there are at least 2 offices in town that will write a Rx. Need that report PM me


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## swarm_trapper

Thank you Keith, Really.


Keith Jarrett said:


> Really, they took TAKTIC off the market....
> 
> Really, they were short this year in the almonds with no taktic available, But the year before taktic was available and we were long on bees in the almonds.
> 
> Really, they had beekeepers jumping on TV and NOT one mention TAKTIC .
> 
> Really, they are blaming farmers for thier troubles.
> 
> Really, it's time to start telling the truth.


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## wildbranch2007

Ishi said:


> Did you call a vet and ask ? Its good to have the study done by aBEE lab in hand when you ask. I don't think that my vet is low paying but there are at least 2 offices in town that will write a Rx. Need that report PM me


how about posting there names here so everyone can get a perscription?


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## Ian

Oldtimer said:


> In my country Apivar is widely used. Here's a few of my personal observations.
> 
> You need 2 strips *per brood box*, ie, in a 2 brood box hive, you need *4 strips*. The mode of action is not to kill mites outright. What it does is paralyze them, . . . . . the Apivar strips have to stay in the hive 10 weeks. I have spoken to the manufacturers about this and they told me that at 10 weeks, the strips are still leaching around 1/2 the Amitraz they did when they were new, which is enough, but at the 10 week mark they should be removed to prevent underdosing & encouraging resistant mites.


Good post Oldtimer, Im my experience it is very important to provide the full treatment time. I also treat during the spring because I feel its important to have the bees active during the treatment


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## davidsbees

Speaking of telling the truth Keith what are you using for mites???


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## jim lyon

If you are prepared to ask be prepared to answer. I haven't used anything besides thymol or oxalic for around 7 years And have never used Amitraz.


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## davidsbees

It's been over 4 years since using apiguard been using an essential oil mix the last 4 years so not a problem saying. Also helps with viruses (samples to Dave Wick).


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## hpm08161947

Heh heh... bet we are getting ready to hear from a whole line of Commercial beekeepers who have never seen a shop towel.......


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## davidsbees

Back in the day used a lot menthol, oil and the infamous blue shop towel for t mite and maverk and towels ( as per work done in israel ) before any thing else was available.


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## Barry

Now that's funny, Herb!


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## Keith Jarrett

davidsbees said:


> Speaking of telling the truth Keith what are you using for mites???


What works best is we shake everything down (10-15lb) then kill off old queen and set back with cells, the brood beak really messes with the mites.


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## Oldtimer

davidsbees said:


> It's been over 4 years since using apiguard been using an essential oil mix the last 4 years so not a problem saying. Also helps with viruses (samples to Dave Wick).


Care to share your recipe David? Is it a paste or in syrup?


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## davidsbees

I've posted my syrup mix before, I also use a blend of 10 plant oils on a cotton pad applied 6 times a year.


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## Oldtimer

Well the bees look pretty happy. 

Guess I'll have to go search your posts. I'm not much interested in syrup mix as I hardly ever use syrup but if you have not detailed the cotton pad plant oils before I'd love to hear it. I guess you just let the bees chew out the pad so you don't have to remove it yourself?


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## sjvbee

Brood break , quickstrips, apigaurd and oxalic acid have have worked for myself although there is a learning curve on dose timing and proper application


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## jim lyon

sjvbee said:


> Brood break , quickstrips, apigaurd and oxalic acid have have worked for myself although there is a learning curve on dose timing and proper application


way to go sjv and you are right on the mark. Timing is the key


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## davidsbees

Most will not clean them out. I apply 3 in the spring 10 days apart then the same in the fall. It's a blend of oil, thymol, euc, menthol and 7 others. Always changing due to additional research. I seem to find time to do research, attend meetings, talk to other beeks, and run bees. Spent all last week supering.


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## Oldtimer

Cheers David 

I was thinking of doing something like that but using a fairly stiff shortening such as coconut or palm oil, plus no pad, to get a slower release & only need one treatment, what do you think?


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## davidsbees

I tried the fry oils but they melt at a low temp so don't work well in the hive. So I settled on the absorbent pad you don't want it to release to quick or to slow. I started using 1 pad every 2 month but get better result with current method. You can use the pads in the summer without driving the bee out. It's taken over 10 years to get the combo right.


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## Oldtimer

Thanks David, maybe you just took a few years off my learning curve!


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## dixiebooks

Gotta ask....what is the deal with blue shop towels. How do they control mites? -js


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## hpm08161947

dixiebooks said:


> Gotta ask....what is the deal with blue shop towels. How do they control mites? -js


Don't know... never seen one before.... :lpf:


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## dixiebooks

hpm08161947 said:


> Don't know... never seen one before.... :lpf:


you never saw a blue shop towel or never saw a mite? -js


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## Oldtimer

Dixie, the innuendo is around the secret and sometimes (rumoured) illegal potions that the towel might get dipped into.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

FYI, why do folks think that vets are highly paid? http://www.indeed.com/salary/Veterinarian.html
They end up with big bills from school and everyone complains about paying their vet bills. BTW I'm not a vet, but my wife was considering it.


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## hpm08161947

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> FYI, why do folks think that vets are highly paid? http://www.indeed.com/salary/Veterinarian.html
> They end up with big bills from school and everyone complains about paying their vet bills. BTW I'm not a vet, but my wife was considering it.


I can confirm that.... I have special knowledge...  - a small animal vet can make a living, but a big animal guy is a "Po Boy"!


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## Oldtimer

Also true here. From birth I was an insect and animal lover. Eventual choice was to go to Uni & become a vet, or leave school & work for a commercial beekeeper to learn that trade & become a beekeeper. I found out how much vets get paid so beekeeping won.

Also, when I started my own beekeeping business, in the set up phase it was small & I did farm work to bring in enough money. If any vet work on the farms would cost more than the cost of the animal, cheaper to shoot the animal. So as a consequence, large animal vet work is poorly paid, I was stunned how little, in relation to their qualifications, large animal vets get.
Small animals though, well people are attached to their pooch and may choose to lay out thousands on it after the car accident. Still not like the $$'s of being a doctor, even though the knowledge required to be a good vet is huge.


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## Ian

my vet told me that his small animal clients give him Christmas cards every year, he tells me I give him a hard time every year lol


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## BMAC

hpm08161947 said:


> I wonder why we have not seen Amitraz resistance already..... maybe no one speaks about it.... shhhh.


I bet you will see amitraz resistance with apivar out there now.


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## wildbranch2007

BMAC said:


> I bet you will see amitraz resistance with apivar out there now.


here is a report out of canada from 2009, not sure what has transpired since. but since taktic was a higher potency and nobody knows the amout being

used, I would think you are correct.


http://www.agriculture.gov.sk.ca/Default.aspx?DN=3da05b11-04ba-4e38-a372-d862eb2978fe



lowered, but the decrease was more gradual than expected. By the end of the treatment, the Varroa mite levels just met

the recommended economic threshold, but more mites than expected still remained in the colonies. Fall-applied

Apivar® strips produced similar results in Alberta, Manitoba and Quebec. Comparatively, colonies that were treated

in the spring of 2009 appeared to have had very good mite control. Many samples from colonies treated in the 

spring with Apivar® had very low Varroa mite levels in the fall of 2009. Preliminary analysis of the information 

collected during the fall of 2009 does not indicate Apivar® resistance; however, the findings do indicate that we still need to 

use this product to its best potential. For example, it is likely that four Apivar® strips will be needed in the fall to treat

colonies effectively.


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## BMAC

Good Read. Wasn't there an amitraz based product back in the 90s that mites become resistant with as well?


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## hpm08161947

A beekeeper who uses Amitraz over and over again is not practicing good beekeeping. Now with Amitraz back in the mix, we should be able to put togather a good rotation....

Perhaps that is a good thread... the rotation.... it seems as if I need to treat Spring, Fall, and Winter. I may do something like Amitraz-Formic-OA-Api-Formic-OA. There... that covers 2 years... Amitraz used once... the OA is just a drizzle during a warm break in JAN....


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## Michael Palmer

BMAC said:


> Good Read. Wasn't there an amitraz based product back in the 90s that mites become resistant with as well?


Yes there was an amitraz product then. Actually the first product released. It was removed from the market due to colony deaths. 

The company ran out of bee hive strips and substituted cattle amitraz strips and colonies died. The ticks on the cows had become resistant to the amitraz so the company tried using left over amitraz cow collars on bee hives. Big mistake.


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## davidsbees

I guess the












treatment works and made a little orange honey too!


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## davidsbees

Oops to impatient with the picture key


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## Oldtimer

"I guess the treatment works"

LOL


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## Lburou

davidsbees said:


> Most will not clean them out. I apply 3 in the spring 10 days apart then the same in the fall. It's a blend of oil, thymol, euc, menthol and 7 others. Always changing due to additional research. I seem to find time to do research, attend meetings, talk to other beeks, and run bees. Spent all last week supering.
> View attachment 5255


David, Please consider making your own thread sharing the details of your treatments -recipes too. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would read it carefully. May I suggest you share links that have had the most influence on your process also. A thread like that would help an entire generation of beekeepers who want to be in the know on these matters.


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## rainesridgefarm

Here is the recipes people talked about at the abf meeting.

Liquid 1st
1 pint tea tree oil
1 pint camphor white
1/2 pint of orange sweet
3 pint eucalyphus
1 pint plus 1/4 cup lemongrass
1 pint of peppermint or wintergreen

crystal 2nd need to crush fine or make liquid
1 pint menthol crystals
13 pint of thymol crystals

all of the above can be puchased from the lebermuth company inc

25 lbs of powdered sugar

sugar 3rd
50 lbs of granulated sugar

grease 4th
25 lb crisco cake icing shorting

extras 3 cups citric acid
3cups of mineral salt

They are finding if you mix the grease in before the liquid it is smoother
buy glassine bags from Uline.

feed every 60 days 1lb makes 6 patties to 1lb makes 10 patties.


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## BCHoneyFarm

So can someone inform me on using mitanan


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## Trevor Mansell

Mitaban is Amitraz.


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## Gino45

Was looking at this thread after reading about apivar and the fact that I can now use it.

Thinking about alternatives and cost, I was wondering about how much thymol is in apiguard? Does anyone know the weight or percentage that is actually thymol??

Thanks!


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## Oldtimer

The Apiguard label says it's 25% thymol. Don't know if that's by volume or weight.

Doing my early spring rounds now and very pleased with the hives I treated with Apiguard last fall. However a lot of research is needed before doing an Apiguard treatment to make sure you get all the variables right. Cost wise it was not as cheap as I had hoped, cheaper than the strip treatments though.


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## Gino45

Thanks, Oldtimer,
I was looking at making some 'homebrew'. But looking at the ingredient costs, it's hard to justify anything other than bulk apiguard. I know apiguard works, but it needs repeat uses and, I had a situation in 2012 where a bunch of nucs produced big beautiful drone layers. It was a windy period, so maybe that contributed, plus it was just after the mites had wiped out the local ferals. So, was it a lack of drones or was it treatment damage? I do not have the answer.


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## Oldtimer

This happened at the same time as you used Apiguard?

Straight up, I'm pleased with the low level of mites in the hives since I did this treatment. BUT - it was hard on the bees, very hard. I think as hard as formic acid.

Last fall was the first time I've ever used it, and I was sceptical because I've seen so many failures with it on other peoples hives. So I dosed full strength plus restricted a lot of the entrances. The result was many hives had brood killed, queens stopped laying, two queens disappeared completely, and 2 hives were robbed because they were too confused to defend the hive. So I've learned a bit from this and will do things a bit different next time around.

But use it while raising queens? No I wouldn't I think it would be asking for trouble, and very likely contributed to your problems.

Like you, I've considered making a home brew, but the cost of the ingredients means I could only achieve about a 30% saving. I'm going to use Apiguard again this fall, with some changes in the method and see how that works. If it works well and without too much disruption, then I might try a home brew at some future time but I need to get it right with the proper product first, before I have a benchmark to see if my home brew is doing as good a job.


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## jim lyon

Oldtimer said:


> This happened at the same time as you used Apiguard?
> 
> Straight up, I'm pleased with the low level of mites in the hives since I did this treatment. BUT - it was hard on the bees, very hard. I think as hard as formic acid.
> 
> Last fall was the first time I've ever used it, and I was sceptical because I've seen so many failures with it on other peoples hives. So I dosed full strength plus restricted a lot of the entrances. The result was many hives had brood killed, queens stopped laying, two queens disappeared completely, and 2 hives were robbed because they were too confused to defend the hive. So I've learned a bit from this and will do things a bit different next time around.


Could you give us some specifics OT? What were the high temperatures during the Apiguard treatment and where did you place it? Also what were the hive populations and configuration (heavily populated doubles for example).


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## Gino45

In my case, drone brood was probably exposed to Apiguard. I think that my drone layers were caused by that or a lack of drones. My yard had drones; however some claim that the queens fly beyond their range to mate. How these experts know that is beyond me.

I also treated a couple of hives late this spring during warm 80 degree weather. The front of these 2 hives were heavily stained with either bee vomit or feces from that treatment, and 1 queen failed. These were 1 deep with top spacer, fyi.


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## Oldtimer

jim lyon said:


> Could you give us some specifics OT?


OK, got the honey off earlier in fall than usual (late February), because a Beesource member from Canada came & stayed a few days & gave me a hand. So the hives were reduced to strong 2 deep hives, some of them hanging out strong, but then we went round and made fall nucs which reduced them to just strong 2 deep hives, by strong I mean bees on outside of outside frames both boxes. Some nectar still coming in & a lot of hives gathered the best part of another box after the supers and nucs were taken, winter feeding was easy cos I didn't have to do any.

Couple weeks later when treatment started, daily temps were around 70 - 74 high, and nigh time lows of around 60 -68. To treat, I cracked the boxes and put a card with 50 ml's Apiguard gel on it middle top bars of the bottom box. Shaded locations or weaker hives had their entrance restricted. 2 weeks later they got a second dose of another 50 ml's. I didn't get around them again for maybe a month by which time all traces of treatment were gone although a lot of them smelled of it.

There were a few oddball weak hives which were treated, for them it did not generally work, I've decided it only works on hives full of bees.

During treatment many of the hives were fairly devastated bee wise, a lot of them threw larvae out the front of the hive, and some of them a month following treatment had lost 3/4 of their bees. They did not recover quickly either, some did, but for many they are only just starting to rebuild quickly now.

However at time of treatment some hives were showing severe mite damage ie visible PMS, crawlers, etc, and these hives now are healthy no sign of mites. The first queen raising starts in a little over a month from now and going by what I see the bees will be ready in time.

What I'm going to change next year, is put a rim on top of the hive and put the Apiguard on the top box. Putting it centre of the hive was hard on the bees, although from a mite perspective, very effective. I did lose some hives though robbing and queenlessness. The Apiguard literature says it's most effective placed between the two boxes, but I found that too disruptive to do it again. So hoping doing it on top will be less disruptive, but also get good results. Just have to wait & see, I'll report back.


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## jmgi

So if you treated with Apiguard and your hives were all in single deep brood box you would say it will be very hard on the bees because of the small area of confinement? Is there a way to avoid that with single deeps, maybe a smaller dosage, and would that still maintain a high degree of effectiveness? John


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## Oldtimer

I'm guessing cos the only single deckers I treated were weak hives, I gave a slightly lower dose but for most of them it was not effective against mites. 

Where the robbing was caused was because the Apiguard was placed centre of the hive and in some cases forced the bees to evacuate the area around middle of the bottom entrance, leaving it open to robbers, which happened. Having thought about this if I have to do strong singles, I'll split the dose up into maybe 4 small doses one near each corner, The idea being to try not to drive bees away from the entrance, which must remain guarded. Might even try this technique on a few doubles, but put 4 corner doses on the top bars of the bottom box. 

Happy with the mite control, just need to experiment to find the least disruptive method for the bees.


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## jmgi

Thanks Oldtimer for your information and suggestions for doing singles. Been treatment free for years and I am looking at treating for the first time this fall if the bees require it. My singles should be strong rather than weak when I do the treatments, so that may help some. John


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## Oldtimer

Jmgi, I've just seen your post in the other thread outlining why you will now treat. Course I cannot discuss it there so there's a couple things I would like to say here.

Following losses last winter, if you use Apiguard, it's possible the harshness of the product could cause you more losses. It's only a suggestion, but Apivar strips (not api-life-var), is very gentle on the bees and very effective against mites. If you were to do a fall treatment with Apivar, provided your bees are properly housed and properly fed, no reason why you should not get 100% survival and pumping colonies come spring. Apivar is not organic (unlike Apiguard), but leaves no permanent toxic residue in the hive, unlike the other strips such as Apistan, which do. 
Seems this would get your operation back on track, and you could use Apiguard next time around, with the safety of a few more hives.

Only a suggestion though, please do whatever you deem best.


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## jmgi

Oldtimer, I am not committed to using any particular product right now, that's why I'm asking so many questions. I appreciate any and all suggestions based on someone else's experiences with a product, so thanks much. John


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## DPBsbees

Randy Oliver uses a 25 gram dose of Apiguard on an index card inserted from the back of the hive in between the two deeps and says he really likes the results over the 50 gram dose. He does this twice, 10 to 14 days apart. In hot weather. I'll be trying this shortly.


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## wildbranch2007

DPBsbees said:


> Randy Oliver uses a 25 gram dose of Apiguard on an index card inserted from the back of the hive in between the two deeps and says he really likes the results over the 50 gram dose. He does this twice, 10 to 14 days apart. In hot weather. I'll be trying this shortly.


If you read some of Randie's posts on bee-l he also states that he uses the smaller amount as he is trying to get mite resistence into his bees.


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## jmgi

wildbranch2007, although I have not yet read what you are talking about, I find it very interesting that he is experimenting with it that way, I have heard of people using smaller doses but not for that reason. I know that the product can be hard on the bees, and after being treatment free I don't want to go full circle and hit them so hard that it causes lots of bee and brood mortality and queen issues. I'm looking at getting some help with the mites to the extent that they can get through the winter and come out on the other side at least strong enough to build up normally the next season and make a crop. Obviously that's what everyone wants. Generally speaking, I have heard and witnessed that with a good queen coming through winter, she can outbreed the mites for the most part of the next season. John


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## wildbranch2007

If you treat between the brood chambers, at least when I do, when you break the comb between the brood chambers is where I see the dead lava etc that is put in front of the hive and I usually treat with around 50 grams as I have 3 deep hives. I have never lost a queen(that I can tell) or significant amounts of brood to apiguard. I treat when it is warm(end of aug early sept) and when I was using mitewayII would use apiguard first if too hot and never seen any loss of queens or brood. never seen bees exit the hive or beard on the front of hives. I am interested in oldtimer saying the label says to use between brood chambers as last time I looked our label didn't, but I haven't read it in a while

next time i'm in bee-l I'll see if I can find where randy says that, but he posts so many posts It's usually hard to find anything specific, cant think of a search word that would work?


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## wildbranch2007

I can't copy the link without logging out so here is the post.

>
> >Why would you not wait until you can treat per label or simply use
> another treatment?
>
>MAQS strips walk a fine line. Killing varroa without killing queen and
> brood is a fine line.


You answered your own question.
I breed for mite resistant bees, and never allow mite levels to get high,
so I don't look for treatments to clear the hives of mites--simply to keep
knocking the mites back. I find that manufacturers set the dose to give
95% mite kill, with not too much stress on the colony. I don't look for
95% kill, but do look to minimize stress.

I have great success using Apiguard at half dose, sometimes repeating.
I've also gotten satisfactory setback (for me) when experimenting with MAQS
at a single strip. I'm currently testing more formally.

I had a bunch of growing singles in hot weather that I wanted to knock the
mites back a little in, without shutting the queens down. So I experimented
with a half strip, and preliminary checkback looks like I got the result I
wanted.

Bob, there is no single formula for all beekeepers, nor all hives, nor all
times.

Allen, I find this discussion very interesting. I'm curious as to why we
get such different results with natural fall and alcohol wash.

The important thing, to me, is to monitor mite levels by whatever method
works consistently for you. The mites will let you know if you are
successful.


-- 
Randy Oliver
Grass Valley, CA
www.ScientificBeekeeping.com


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## Oldtimer

wildbranch2007 said:


> I am interested in oldtimer saying the label says to use between brood chambers as last time I looked our label didn't, but I haven't read it in a while


Yes the label is as you say, which is to apply it top of the brood frames. But I didn't say the label I said their literature, there's a difference.

This, from their literature-

"4. Q: Can I use Apiguard with a brood and a half or a double brood?
A: Yes, but bear in mind that the level of mite control may be slightly lower than with a single brood chamber, as the number of bees that need to receive treatment is higher. 
Most bees, brood and varroa will usually be in the lower brood chamber, so place the Apiguard on top of the brood frames of the lower chamber and put the second brood chamber 
on top (ie *the Apiguard is between the brood boxes*). Repeat after 2 weeks, following Point 2 above".

http://www.vita-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/VitaApiguardFAQ201208.pdf

However I think that label instructions are law, any other advice is advice.


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## wildbranch2007

Oldtimer said:


> Yes the label is as you say, which is to apply it top of the brood frames. But I didn't say the label I said their literature, there's a difference.


true


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## VMVaporizer

Go ahead and check us out,

vmvaporizer.com

If you got any questions, let me know!


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## Oldtimer

The question I got is how much $$?


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## hpm08161947

Same question here.... so far I do not see the answer.... at least not on FB or website..


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## Rader Sidetrack

Regardless of initial purchase price, note that the _VMVaporizer _requires a source of 110 volts AC *and *compressed air in order to operate.



> *Q: What powers the Vaporizer?*A: The VmVaporizer needs an electrical power source of 120v, and an air compressor.​
> Our company recommends the "Honda EU2000i Super Quiet Generator" and any small reliable, and roughly 2-4 gallon air compressor.
> ​​


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## Barry

If the manufacturer starts discussing price, that will be considered advertising. :no:


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## Oldtimer

He pm'd me the price. Let's just say it's for serious beekeepers with quite a few hives.

If you pm him, he seems friendly enough. It does look like a well engineered piece of equipment and if somebody wants to get through a large number of hives quickly, I don't think you'd get anything much better. Because the oxalic only costs cents per hive, once the equipment is paid for you are on a winner. Provided your climate is suitable to maximise effectiveness of an oxalic vapour application.


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## Honey-4-All

Barry said:


> If the manufacturer starts discussing price, that will be considered advertising. :no:


Hello Barry,

Regardless of whether Mr. Semenov is advertising or not I find it all quite disconcerting considering the fact that the attached Youtube video on the website link provided on Beesource purports to show the applicator doing an illegal pesticide application on unmarked beehives in what I am assuming is an almond orchard in California. Its extremely disheartening especially since its done in a manner which is not only unregistered in California but more importantly patently unsafe. ( inadequate protective gear) 

When the lawyer for the first person to file a lawsuit comes looking for any persons remotely responsible for the reasons their plaintiff no longer has adequate lung capacity from use of this product I would want to be about as far away as possible. From what I have heard and read about use of these things am I that far off base? Does anyone know what kind of liability insurance this guy is carrying regarding sale of this product?


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## Gino45

Oldtimer said:


> Jmgi, I've just seen your post in the other thread outlining why you will now treat. Course I cannot discuss it there so there's a couple things I would like to say here.
> 
> Following losses last winter, if you use Apiguard, it's possible the harshness of the product could cause you more losses. It's only a suggestion, but Apivar strips (not api-life-var), is very gentle on the bees and very effective against mites. If you were to do a fall treatment with Apivar, provided your bees are properly housed and properly fed, no reason why you should not get 100% survival and pumping colonies come spring. Apivar is not organic (unlike Apiguard), but leaves no permanent toxic residue in the hive, unlike the other strips such as Apistan, which do.
> Seems this would get your operation back on track, and you could use Apiguard next time around, with the safety of a few more hives.
> 
> Only a suggestion though, please do whatever you deem best.


I've learned to lower the dose, with apiguard. The one time I did full dose, I had some pretty severe die off, at least of brood. So I use half a dose (my estimate) and check back a few extra times to make sure everything looks good.

Also, fwiw, I just had a hive with a good amount of chalk brood (just looked it up to verify that it was definitely chalkbrood). I gave it a modest dose of apiguard a week ago and it is now all cleaned up. Not saying I won't requeen, but right now I don't have queens to spare.

Those other treatments (MQS and Apivar) seem expensive. Also, I tried MQS and it has me wondering if it loses its oomph if it is not all used right away.


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## rsderrick

I've been hearing though other news sources that "aromatic leaves" such as grapefruit leaves used in smoker can help with varroa. I don't know if any studies that have been done so I'm skeptical but it would be nice to know more about it.


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## Oldtimer

Some of those things, if you smoke the bees extremely enough, and it has to be pretty extreme, will make a few mites fall off. That's about it.


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