# Market for Small bees?



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

I am considering expanding to raise small cell bees and sell 5 frame nucs of 4.9mm bees in the spring to be picked up in Greenwood, Nebraska. It will, of course, take me until at least the spring of 2004 to have any for sale, but I'm curious is there is anyone out there who would be interested in them?

reply:

Micheal, this is something I plan on also. But it may be in 2005 before I'm ready. I would like a good sphere of infuence for mating and the bees very, very well locked into the 4.9 sizing. Which should put me at year # 5. People will always buy bees. The question is will they want dope free bees that can survive. You will also be responsible for there education on how to go about establishing 4.9 colonies. Yet dope free colonies that survive should get a good price also. I would be selective on who I sold too.

Just make sure you allow enough time to properly get the bees regressed.

Clay


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## Hook (Jun 2, 2002)

am considering expanding to raise small cell bees and sell 5 frame nucs of 4.9mm bees in the spring to be picked up in Greenwood, Nebraska. It will, of course, take me until at least the spring of 2004 to have any for sale, but I'm curious is there is anyone out there who would be interested in them?

I have had similar thoughts. I agree with Clayton too. People need to be educated about what you have done, and realize all the work it took to get the bees were they will be. And then and only then will the price be justified..

------------------
Dale Richards
Dal-Col Apiaries
Drums, PA


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

This is all true. I am assuming I can get a premium price and that the people willing to pay the price know what it is they are buying. But if I was advertising, I'd have to sell the whole 4.9mm cell size and the concepts involved. You are also right, I should put together an informational brochure to explain managment. It won't do a lot of good to add a bunch of 5.4mm frames to a 4.9mm hive.

I didn't expect to have a lot of them to sell by 2004, but I thought I could have some.


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## Steve Hamilton (Sep 23, 2002)

Michael,I would be very interested in buying some small cell nucs from you. Send me an email if you would and we can discuss.

Thanks


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Hi Michael, Clayton, Hook and all

Just for the record, deposits on "clean" 4.9mm breeder queens start at $200 with $100 deposit. (have receipts to show)

Also broodnest conversion packages have gone out on 4.9mm clean comb with queen, minimum 3 full frames layed up brood, rest honey and pollen $100-$150 and some over $300 depending upon traits of bees i.e. colour.

This was when honey was still .50 lb and regular packages were $30.

Now with scarcity starting,honey tripling will be interesting to see where things go, i.e. pollenation pricing and regular packages/nucs from run-of-mill enlarged and often contaminated (chemicals/drugs, etc) stock. For things will be getting short all over.

Clean market is finally starting.

Sincerely,

Dee


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Hi Michael, Clayton, Hook and all
Just for the record, deposits on "clean" 4.9mm breeder queens

What exactly is your definition of "a "clean" 4.9mm breeder queen?"

>Also broodnest conversion packages have gone out on 4.9mm clean comb with queen, minimum 3 full frames layed up brood, rest honey and pollen $100-$150 and some over $300 depending upon traits of bees i.e. colour.

This is about what I though the market would be.

>Now with scarcity starting,honey tripling will be interesting to see where things go, i.e. pollenation pricing and regular packages/nucs from run-of-mill enlarged and often contaminated (chemicals/drugs, etc) stock. For things will be getting short all over.

It will be interesting.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Just to throw the idea out, my plan was to to split the hives into nucs in the late summer or fall and overwinter them in a conodominium configuration by making a row of 5 frame nucs with double screen boards and stack them several nucs high. This way the queen would start laying as early as she likes in each of these nucs and the bees would be nicely settled as a hive when I sell them.

Also, one of my problems is that I have no clean wax to make foundation nor do I have a foundation press. Would anyone out there be willing to sell me some "clean" 4.9 foundation? All I have is the Dadant 4.9mm foundation.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Questions for Dee Lusby:

>Just for the record, deposits on "clean" 4.9mm breeder queens start at $200 with $100 deposit. (have receipts to show)

Dee, could you please define a "clean 4.9mm breeder queen"?

>Also broodnest conversion packages have gone out on 4.9mm clean comb with queen, minimum 3 full frames layed up brood, rest honey and pollen $100-$150 and some over $300 depending upon traits of bees i.e. colour.

Dee, Could you please define a "broodnest conversion package"? Is this 10 frames or 5 frames or 20 frames?

Dee, do you know of any source for "clean" wax or foundation? The only source I have for 4.9mm foundation is Dadant. I would also like to find some "clean" wax for making blank foundation (no embossing).

Thanks.


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi Micheal,

do you know of any source for "clean" wax or foundation? The only source I have for 4.9mm foundation is Dadant. I would also like to find some "clean" wax for making blank foundation (no embossing

reply:

Go to foundation & mill makers here at beesource.com under bees and supplies. Check with Roger White. Also other 4.9 foundation producers may have clean wax too. You will probably have to import.

Clay


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Hi all

Michael Bush wrote:
Questions for Dee Lusby:
>Just for the record, deposits on "clean" 4.9mm breeder queens start at $200 with $100 deposit. (have receipts to show)

Dee, could you please define a "clean 4.9mm breeder queen"?

Reply:
I get asked this alot, but not by run of the mill beekeepers. Normally commercial beekeepers and older ones at that. 

What they are looking for are queens who have never been in contact with chemicals, drugs, essential oils and acids in this case. It also means for several generations and with outbred queens for maximum brood variability.It also means offspring watched and screened for uniformity of subfamilies and subfamily sizing.


>Also broodnest conversion packages have gone out on 4.9mm clean comb with queen, minimum 3 full frames layed up brood, rest honey and pollen $100-$150 and some over $300 depending upon traits of bees i.e. colour.

Dee, Could you please define a "broodnest conversion package"? Is this 10 frames or 5 frames or 20 frames?

Reply:
I am talking 5 frame nucs here with a minimum of 3 full frames of layed up brood with laying queen. ONe frame of good honey/pollen. Last frame optional, empty drawn 4.9mm foundation preferred.


Dee, do you know of any source for "clean" wax or foundation? The only source I have for 4.9mm foundation is Dadant. I would also like to find some "clean" wax for making blank foundation (no embossing).

Reply:
How much you talking about?

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

1000 sheets of clean 4.9 foundation would be nice. 50 pounds of clean wax would be nice. I'm not sure how much I'll need in the long run, but in the long run I hope to have my own.


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## pedro (May 4, 2002)

Hi everybody, I would be happy if anyone would start producing smaller bees. I have tried Bolling bee, but it seems that he is short handed and it is unclear whether they will have bees this year. I am about to give up the search and regress my own. Does anyone have any other ideas of where ready made small bees could be had (2-3 nucs)? All my equiptment is clean and ready. . . . . . .

Thanks for all the great info, I have enjoyed reading the discussions,

Pedro


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## pedro (May 4, 2002)

P.S.

My location in the post is in error, I have moved and am now in Southern Utah. 

Pedro


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My goal is to have some by spring of 2004. Probably not a lot though. And they would be FOB here in Eastern Nebraska, probably too far for someone in Utah.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

My problem is that there are no feral colonies and only one commercial beekeeper within 200 miles and when he ships his to pollenation, all honey bees disappear, so I have no where to get bees except to have them shipped in. So my conclusion is that I will have to do all my regression with packages and existing colonies. I have nowhere to get 4.9 bees, its that simple.
But I wanna be selling them someday.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

I would someday be interested in buying small cell bees,but I am somewhat confused by this thread and have a few questions.
What exactly is a "small cell bee"?
Is it a bee that was raised in a small cell?
Or a bee that was raised from an egg that was laid by a queen which in turn was raised from a small cell egg? Or both?
Is this "small cell" trait inherited or the result of the size of the cell?
Will a conventional sized queen lay eggs in small cells(ie.4.9)and produce "small cell" bees?
Dee, You speak of "out breeding" and seem to attribute some of your success to genetic traits acquired from your native(feral?) population.Do you think that other races can be regressed with the same dope free results?
Clay,I believe you raise Carniolans.Are these what you have regressed?(My hives are NWCs and Rus X Carn.I'm going into my 3rd year with just a single apistan treatment per year,fall.No menthol,oils,acids,TM,or shop towels.I've got varroa,But as of 1/16 I still had bees.
You others out there who are having success,what races are you using?How much does genetic material from "survivor"stock fit into the equation?
I am somewhat new to this forum,and I apologize if this material was discussed in previous posts.I've read back about 18 mos. worth and although some of this was mentioned ,I still had these questions.
Thanks,Jack


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What exactly is a "small cell bee"? Is it a bee that was raised in a small cell?
Or a bee that was raised from an egg that was laid by a queen which in turn was raised from a small cell egg? Or both?

"Small cell" is not a genetic thing. It's just a bee that was layed, hatched and emerged from a small brood cell, for our purposes, a 4.9mm cell size.

>Is this "small cell" trait inherited or the result of the size of the cell?

It's just a result of the cell size being what the bees would have built for a brood nest if we had not given them the "standard" large cell foundation.

>Will a conventional sized queen lay eggs in small cells(ie.4.9)and produce "small cell" bees?

Yes. But convential sized bees will not draw small cells. They will, if given small cell foundation draw smaller cells (5.1mm to 5.15mm) and those bees will be smaller. If those are given small cell foundation they will draw smaller cells etc. This is why it is advantageous to just buy small cell bees. It saves going through the regression to get them living on small cells.

>Do you think that other races can be regressed with the same dope free results?

There is research on varroa reproduction in small cells and it shows they do not reproduce well in them because there is not room in the cell for them to reproduce. There is also the reasonale hypothesis that the trachea on small bees is too small for the tracheal mites. The race is, I think, also a contributing factor, but not necessarily the only factor in small cell being effective.


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi,

Clay,I believe you raise Carniolans.Are these what you have regressed?

reply:

Yes. I keep a carnie type bee many/ most are not pure. A few yellow type bees too. I keep that which survives. I breed for what lives but I shall be selecting by color soon via incubator.

How much does genetic material from "survivor"stock fit into the equation?

reply:

It factors in about 1/3 of it. There is a selection process that occurs and it is different for everyone. Some have lost 30% all the way to 90%. But those that get 4.9mm bees to the third season seem to have bees that explode. I don't want anyone to think that it is easy and that there is no risk or loss as there is. As for race of bee, I don't think its that important to draw 4.9, it is just choosing a bee that is good in ones area and matches ones climate. There is alot to small cell beekeeping (alot the same as general beekeeping). Too much can be said. If you have specific questions just ask. Dennis, Dee, Micheal,others, or myself will answer the best we can. Also consider joining biobee list, organic bee list too as most talk on small cell goes on there.

Clay


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Could you explain about the "explode" part a bit more?

Sol


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## Alfred (Dec 29, 2002)

Hello Dee, I have contacts to a bee institute in Germany where they testing and breeding bees on 4.9mm cells for some years also.

Have you studied why your hives survive even if theyre mite infected?
Do you know exact the reason why this happen or is it a result of many different ways and you find it out by a lucky chance?

Im not familiar with test on bees, queens and cells they made on the institute but there a few thinks they discovered why it can work and many times not.

One reason I heard that small bees producing much less pheromones on the 8th day than bigger bees and the Varroa goes by the smell from that pheromone on the 9th day into the cells. More pheromone, more interest to go into the cells.

On tests they neutralized the smell totally and no mite entered the cell.

A second reason the find is, that the Africanized bees breeding only 20 instead 21and most Varroa are not fully developed and cant reproduce again. 
Im not a scientist thats why I say it simple. A combination of both is a possibility why bees live and survive with the mites. 

Do you have blood from Africanized bees in your colonies? What does happen in the long run when you sell queens or colonies to someone else and they breeding with non-Africanized drones? Have you any results? 

The scientists say if breeding queens and they get fertilized with drones like this it will work, but if youre a beekeeper on a different locality with other drones, it doesnt work. After a few years the effect is gone and even the bees in 4.9mm cells have a hell of trouble to survive without a treatment.

Would be interesting to hear your experiences over the years.


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Could you explain about the "explode" part a bit more?

reply:

I mean strong colonies of bees that build up quickly. Also that are no long devistated by parasites but have a more harmonious relationship with them (probably much of the reason they are strong). This is from those that have gotten to the third season. I will be in my third season this year so will let you know.

Clay


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## Joel Acheson (Mar 17, 2001)

Hi again, Michael
It is said that great minds think alike, so the bunch of us must be really great! I too have been focussing on that concept. 

I have 10 colonies now, and am ordering more queens/packages as the budget allows. I will acquire a fdtn mill sometime this summer, and start milling my own 4.9 out of the clean wax (cappings, etc) that I harvest from my own hives. I have found a place which I believe is at least 5 miles from any pollution source, and will place my breeding colony there. 

As I develop enuf clean foundation (in marked frames for differentiation), I will cycle out the older wax for sale back to Dadant, e.g., until I have completely clean hives, and then can start marketing what Dee calls "Clean Queens", if I understand her correctly. I also sense the need for small cell nucs to bee made available, and the more of us that are doing it, the more popular it will become. This will create an excellent profit potential for those in it early, and an excellent health profit for beekeeping as an occupation in general. I sense that this is the same direction you are thinking.

We live within 150 miles of each other, and I would love to collaborate with you, and visit your apiary some time this Spring. Perhaps we can bee of assistance to each other in travelling this road together.

Because of some personal issues, I was forced to pretty much abandon my 10 colonies for the entirety of the last year, looking in on them only once or twice, and doing no manipulating. They all finally got infested with varroa (I was blessed with a 2 year run with no infestation, to get them downsized as well as possible) and on the 70 degree day we had a couple of weeks ago, all seemed to be out in strength. I will have to wait til April to see what the final tale will be.

I have used zero chemicals/medicines of any kind with my bees, and never will. I am extremely grateful to the kindness of all of you in sharing your knowledge and experience with me to allow this success to occur.

Joel


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have 10 colonies now, and am ordering more queens/packages as the budget allows.

I'm making a trip this spring to pick up some hives with feral survivor stock in them. It's not that much more than having packages shipped this far. If you'd like me to get you a couple of hives and you pick them up here I could do that. 

>I will acquire a fdtn mill sometime this summer, and start milling my own 4.9 out of the clean wax (cappings, etc) that I harvest from my own hives.

I would love to buy some clean 4.9mm foundation when you start making it. I'm sure there are others who would like to too.

>We live within 150 miles of each other, and I would love to collaborate with you, and visit your apiary some time this Spring.

I think that's a wonderful idea.

>Perhaps we can bee of assistance to each other in travelling this road together.

I'm sure we can.


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Sol wrote:
My problem is that there are no feral colonies and only one commercial beekeeper within 200 miles and when he ships his to pollenation, all honey bees disappear, so I have no where to get bees except to have them shipped in. So my conclusion is that I will have to do all my regression with packages and existing colonies. I have nowhere to get 4.9 bees, its that simple.
But I wanna be selling them someday.

Reply:
I believe you are in Oregon. Nearest beekeepers to you on 4.9mm foundation for a few years now are in Eugene Oregon. Check with Philip Smith there (he can point you to others also.).

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Michael Bush wrote:
1000 sheets of clean 4.9 foundation would be nice. 50 pounds of clean wax would be nice. I'm not sure how much I'll need in the long run, but in the long run I hope to have my own.

Reply:
Michael, I would talk to Jerry Hayes at 1-800-637-7468 and tell him I asked you to call and go over things with him concerning clean wax.

Dadant has tried to keep very clean wax for the 4.9mm foundation as most using it are looking to go biologically clean/organic. In fact Dadant has been carefully watching all their wax and seperating it, decontaminating it and are one of the best at doing this, having processed and reprocessed beeswax for foundation for many decades now. They have even brought in special wax shipments from Africa over the years.

Another source would be Revlon Corp as clean beeswax is a must in the makeup industry.

Sincerely,

Dee A. Lusby


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I didn't know they were making efforts to keep the 4.9mm wax clean. I figured it was just milled on a different mill. This is good to know.

I just really hate to go through all of this regression and not have a reasonably clean system when I'm done.

Thanks.


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## Joel Acheson (Mar 17, 2001)

Hi All
Dee is right, as I had the privilege of going through the Dadant wax facility last year when I attended the midwest Bee conference. They take great pains, and are quite interested in the 4.9 mm foundation concept and potential. They deserve all our support.

Michael, I would love to take you up on your offer re some small queens/pkgs with some feral genetics. There appear to bee zero feral bees in this part of MO. Please send me an e-mail, and we can discuss this in more detail.
Thanx, Joel


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## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

I know where several feral bees are at one is hanging on the outside of a house. the woman that lives there said they have been there for 2years,I've never seen any thing like it. it look's like there is at least 6lbs of bees on it.(feb).she also has 4 more in trees,& in the house.down the road I found 2 hives in bird house's they said I can get.sould I have these bees state insp? mark


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>should I have these bees state insp?

What are the laws on inspection in your state? What do they do if they find something? Mites? AFB? EFB? If all they will do is make you treat them, that's one issue, if they make you destroy them, that is another issue. It would be nice to know what could happen if you do and what could happen if you don't because once you call the inspector it's all out of your hands.


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## Joel Acheson (Mar 17, 2001)

I never advocate breaking the law, but my Daddy also taught me never to kick a sleeping dog.


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