# My First Swarm...



## Rube63 (Jun 28, 2010)

Put a super with frames and foundation on it they are out of room!!!


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## Rusty67 (Mar 9, 2010)

Every time I see a picture like that I fall in love with bees all over again.


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## Riff Raff (Oct 5, 2011)

Rube63 said:


> Put a super with frames and foundation on it they are out of room!!!


As soon as my YL gets up I'm building and painting everything (that requires paint that is)! I hope to have everything ready by morning and it's still ugly here, well ugly for North Carolina, I actually favor rain, coolness, and overcast weather because I am originally from the PNW. Anyway, tomorrow is high mid 50's, so they might be more welcome to the deeper digs. They're still in and on the hive though and I really attribute that to the current weather.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

They've probably got swarm cells in the hive and will swarm when they decide to. One way to keep them would be to split the hive, essentially swarming for them. There are a few ways to accomplish this. You can research them here on beesource by searching for the topic in archives. This hive looks like it's doing very well very early in the season. You might even be able to split it into three hives. I'm glad you have a mentor. What does he recommend?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

nice looking hive. I know its hard when you start out to know but they probably needed another super 2-3 weeks ago. when a hive has a certain amout of brood hatch they explode in population. once a hive decides to swarm they will. probably will happen on the next nice day. best of luck


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

My guess is that they have gone too far to just put a super on and hope for the best. This practice swarm will turn real next chance they get and, as suggested, there are likely a bunch of queen cells ready to go. If this were my hive, I would aggressively split this into several nucs, possibly 4. You've likely sacrificed a good spring crop, but there's some time remaining to build up.


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## Riff Raff (Oct 5, 2011)

beyondthesidewalks said:


> They've probably got swarm cells in the hive and will swarm when they decide to. One way to keep them would be to split the hive, essentially swarming for them. There are a few ways to accomplish this. You can research them here on beesource by searching for the topic in archives. This hive looks like it's doing very well very early in the season. You might even be able to split it into three hives. I'm glad you have a mentor. What does he recommend?


Yeah, that's what my mentor said too about the swarm sells. He recommended right now to give them more room, a split was kinda' iffy, being that there is still some cold coming our way. I'd hate to split and then they die out because they're trying to build up comb from foundation; on the other hand, if I feed the split like I did this hive, religiously, then I'm hoping it won't be a problem. 

As this is my first year, I think for me a three way split would be pretty ambitious. I purchased a package for April, I planned on this split, thus the two complete hive purchases. I even bought a nuc but sadly I had no assembled equipment today. I will fix that tonight though!

Beeware10 and AstroBee: Yeah, I was told that they would try this again I am hoping to have more equipment ready when they do. Now I hope it's enough!


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

go to http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/man.html and read about how to artificially swarm your hive. You need to do it as soon as you get your box nailed together. Don't bother to paint the swarm is worth much more than the box! A taranov swarming ramp is I think a way to go in your boat. You can cobble it together in ten minutes. It will tell you haow to separate those nurse bees all hatted up to go and the queen from the rest of your bees so you can put the 'swarm' in a hive of their own. As soon as the weather clears, they are GONE! Just do it and give them some syrup. They know what to do from there.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Yeah baby!

Everything that I read says that you are too late and if you don't split to force the swarm you will loose most of the bees that have done so well.
Check out Michael Bushes site on splits. Even if you have to use a cardboard box wrapped in duct tape to buy you some time I think it would be worth making at least two splits with queen cells and then making sure the parent hive doesn't have any. Maybe others can chime in here but I am thinking move the parent hive and put the two splits facing each other at the old location.

Good luck. It will be a shame if you loose them.


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## Riff Raff (Oct 5, 2011)

I forgot to add this but I was in my hive three days ago and I never saw swarm cells. I know I couldn't find the queen but know I would recognize swarm cells if I saw them. I am pretty keen on keeping any wax not in frames removed, I thoroughly investigate excessive building, and had I saw these, I probably, nah; I'd still be in the boat I'm in! 

Vance G thanks for the link. Acebird, thanks for the insight.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Riff, I got news for you.

Whether you and your mentor think it is too early to split or not, the bees have decided it is time, and they are going to split your hive whether you like it or not.

They've already decided to leave once, but had seconds thoughts and are waiting for the storm to pass.

If you don't have a hive body for them, I'd make that a pretty high priority...like first thing in the morning and split as soon as it is together.
If the front passes before the glue is dry, and you haven't hived them, just wave good-bye and call it the cost of education, as they already have one foot out the door.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Tell you what, you did a good job of keeping them bees fat and happy!! That is a HUMONGOUS population of bees in those double deeps!! Like what has been mentioned, I would split them ASAP, or the next time the swarm leaves it might not land in that tree again, but will be on its way to another location!!

Again, wow, that is a great picture of a very well overly populated hive!! I would also probably stop feeding them, I imagine they have A LOT stored up!!


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## Riff Raff (Oct 5, 2011)

Well, 0046 and I have assembled and primed three hive bodies, primed bottom boards and outer covers. I made 2.5 gallons of sugar syrup waiting for it to cool down so I can add my HBH. Assembled 20 deep frames, I am kinda' pooped but I will wire them first thing tomorrow. All in 3 hours! Got an idea about Taranov Swarming, I just need to figure out if I can take all of my frames out and shake them onto the sheet, and then replace the frames back to the original hive. 

This steppin' and fetchin' sucks. I tell ya', pre-assembled and painted stuff doesn't sound so bad right about now! Oh well, anything to save a buck, eh? 

Thanks everyone for ideas and words. I may make a video of the operation. 54 degrees today, 53 tomorrow, and 61 Sunday. Should I do this today? I have seen my bees out at this temperature but is it moving weather for them?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Hi Riff Raff,

I would have made an Artificial Swarm Board from a queen excluder. It allows you to do the artificial swarm on the one hive and you had all the hive bodies you need. Just put any frames with queen cells above and allow them some room to move with a couple of empty frames from the super. Have a look for details here:

http://daveybees.wikidot.com/artificialswarmboard

Matthew Davey


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Fifties is cool, so work fast to protect the brood, but everyone is telling you the same thing! I think that should tell you something. Get er done!


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Hang a swarm Trap off that tree branch 

SPLIT

JMHO 

Tommyt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

There you go. Thats a smart move.


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## Riff Raff (Oct 5, 2011)

'Been up since six and the wind has not died down! I wired my frames and I can see my bees form my kitchen table and they aren't flying! I have been out there about ten times today, there is about a 4 inch by six inch flat cluster on the bottom box handhold, and the bees inside are milling about (from what I can see through the entrance). A couple of dead bees in the grass but it got kinda' chilly last night so maybe that offed them. 

Acebird, which one?


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

Go with Ace and hang a swarm trap out on that tree. Even with spitting the hive you might get smaller after swarms which will settle up on that branch. I've a branch on a pine tree about 30 feet up above my beeyard that had at least 3 swarms settle on it last year, one big and two small, I caught the big swarm but lost the other two. If you can get a trap near where the swarms settle you stand a real good chance of catching one. Luck on the split and you just learned one of the first rules of bee keeping "You never have enough equipment"


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Hanging a trap in the tree or near the tree where the bees first swarmed.


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## Riff Raff (Oct 5, 2011)

I compromised considering what I had. I did not do anything to aggravate the bees today, even now it's still howlin' windy. I watched them like a hawk and went to the hive, placed my ear, rapped, and heard an earthy buzz. Looked underneath at my SBB, and bees were clinging to the underside and I could see a nice ball in the hive. 

I put a hive on the roof, where the branch is. I figured if they wanted to leave today, and they don't go far, they can at least have digs they are familiar with. I have everything ready for a Taranov swarm but considering how windy it was today, I am going to do it tomorrow, a degree cooler but no wind in the forecast. I'm kinda' nervous and am undecided on one or two splits, but we'll see who want to leave and who wants to stay. I guess the bigger the swarm underneath the board will dictate if I'm using one or two new hives. 

Judging from the size of the swarm on the branch yesterday, and when my mentor asked if it was football sized and I said, "no more like a basketball and a football", maybe two. 

And Beeboy01, I thought the first rule was dead bees can still sting!? Oh, I just reread, one of the rules. Yeah, I'm learnin'!


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

Never hear that one, just don't believe swarms won't sting. I was chased out of a tree once by a swarm, wish I had a video of it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Riff Raff said:


> I'm kinda' nervous and am undecided on one or two splits,


I hear ya, I have yet to do one but in your case you can't be any more nervous whether it is one or two so why not double your chances at success with two? You got a good chance of catching the main swarm from the roof top box if they fly the coop. That was a good suggestion from tommyt. Did you put any lemon grass scent or pheromone in it, drawn frame or two?


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

If they come back to the hive,that means the queen didn't leave with them,you got lucky. Best thing now before they swarm again is,find the queen,split her and half the bees to an other hive,no honey,no brood,just frames with foundations.You got an other hive.They will make a new queen in old hive. When you split it's best to move the new hive 3-4 miles away or move the two hives around in the same space for two or three days or lock new hive in and feed them for a day.You always move the queen to the new hive,that way they think they swarmed.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Sorry, but I gotta say that I would not do the Taranov artificial swarm on a cool day as they predict for you tomorrow. Probably wouldn't do it regardless of the weather. Taranov involves shaking all the bee from the combs leaving the brood without bees probably long enough to chill it. Its an interesting concept, but there are less intrusive ways to make this happen. There's an artificial swarm that doesn't require shaking the bees off the comb, see: http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/artswarm.html. I've never done that type of artificial swarm, so I really can't give it a personal recommendation either. Again, if this were my hive (and I wish it was) I'd simply split it (at least two splits preferably three) making sure to move the queen from the original location. Leave no queen cells in the split that has the queen. Also, I'd make sure to leave only one or possibly two cells at the original location and very little extra brood. One or two frames of brood with the queen cell(s) at the original location would likely suppress any swarming urge. You can see how I get to three splits. The third split would have the bulk of queen cells and brood. If any splits are unsuccessful, which is certainly possible this early, then simply recombine later. I would do this tomorrow (Sunday as the weather for Monday is expected to be swarmy)


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Can someone explain to me why you don't leave queen cells in the old hive? Isn't the old queen going to be superseded in the primary swarm anyway?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Acebird said:


> Can someone explain to me why you don't leave queen cells in the old hive? Isn't the old queen going to be superseded in the primary swarm anyway?


She may be superseded, but it may be several weeks to months, perhaps longer. Given the size of this colony, she may be a keeper. This is a stressful situation that you're purposely imposing on these bees, so I contend that you may want to eliminate the additional stresses, like a queen cell or a virgin queen. Let them settle in and then let them sort it out.


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## Riff Raff (Oct 5, 2011)

Thanks for all the insight and helpful ideas. 

AstroBee, yeah, today is a bit cooler but the bees are flying. Looked underneath the SBB and still the same, a nice ball from frames 2 to 9 (strangely I number and letter them all) and bees clinging on the outside of the screen but still underneath. The wind has died down but tomorrow looks a bit warmer. A neat sight is that I have one of my new hives right next to my old one and a few bees are inspecting the new one; I can't help but wonder what they're thinking! I have the entrance reducer enplace with a piece of wadded news paper blocking the entrance, and then my wooden strips for my can feeder blocking my inner cover. 

As far as the technique, I looked at that artificial swarm, simply because it was linked from the info on the Taranov swarm technique, I have all the equipment but I have the Taranov swarm in my head. Here's why: first, my mentor suggested it- not by name but he told me to google it based on his description (shaking bees onto a ramped sheet). Fortunately, VanceG did the legwork for me. Next, I want to know, who wants to go and who wants to stay! This method will hopefully ID that, my luck though everyone will march back into the hive and then decide to swarm when I let my guard down! 

Even though the girls are essentially huddled up, I am still nervous about splitting, swarming, stings although not as much, and most of all timing. First my mentor and some of you said that they will swarm again on the next nice day, it's nice today but thankfully still to cool for a mass exodus. Now it's like I'm wearing out the window by looking through it so much, and wearing a path to my hive checking up on them! I know whatever is going to happen, will, no matter if I'm secreting lemon grass oil. 

On one hand I don't want to screw this up, on the other, I am using this as a learning experience. I try to rationalize, it's only a package of bees but then I look at how much sugar I have bought these chicks, steppin' and fetchin' at every buzz, trying to keep them ahead of the game. I was worried about them making it through the winter now I'm worried about them being around for the spring! When does the madness end!? I can't help but think, I should have just bought a new amateur radio! But in the end, bees are slightly more rewarding, well, recently- depending on the day...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Riff Raff said:


> When does the madness end!?


Probably never unless you have so many hives you don't worry about the few.


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## Riff Raff (Oct 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Probably never unless you have so many hives you don't worry about the few.


Probably never truer words written this week. Of course, it's only Sunday!


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I think you have a very stange hive going on. We are just now starting to see swarms here in Northeast Florida. So your hive is way ahead of the game. My guess is with the mild winter we have had and with what you have been feeding you have tricked the bees into thinking it is spring time. The thing I would be consered about with splitting this hive is you may not have enough drones in the area to mate with. If I had that hive here I would go in and split each frame that had a queen cell on it into its own nuc box. But, since you are not here, go into the hive the very next time you have a chance to. If you find swarm cells find the queen and make the split. Make a strong split with the queen. If for some reason the queen cells do not make a laying queen you will still have a strong nuc going into spring time. 

I think the thing to learned from this is make sure the hive has enough stored food going into fall. If not feed them. But, once they have enough stored food stop feeding unless you have a reason for wanting lots of bees early in the year. Most hobbiest do not need the bees to build up any earlier than the natural flow will allow. JMHO Good luck let us know how things turn out. I think it is very interesting.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Good luck. Keep us posted on the progress. I have seen in the past a practice swarm come back to the hive and hang out under the bottom board. If this is what you're seeing, then there may be a chance that you have a queen underneath that hive right now. You might want to hive that group separately and check for a queen.

One of our fellow beekeepers had a swarm last weekend, so it happens.


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## Riff Raff (Oct 5, 2011)

Thanks and I will. I am just waiting to do this thing before they decide to leave again. Still nervous though.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

johng said:


> I think the thing to learned from this is make sure the hive has enough stored food going into fall.


Why should he be worried about fall when he has barely made it to spring? At any time he can recombine the split/s. I think he needs to prevent the swarm. Just me thinking out loud.


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## Riff Raff (Oct 5, 2011)

78 degrees outside, sunny, and minimal wind. I'm in the middle of the split now. I shook all of my bees on a Taranov swarm box I made. It took me an hour to shake all of the bees on to the bottom of the sheet. I was worried because they weren't moving but after a while, they either started flying across to the hive, or ducking under the board and into the box. I started recording video but the batteries died. After everything is said and done, I may try to make another one as an after action review. 

I have a lot of bees and have not spotted the queen. There were swarm cells and it looked like one or two hatched but again, I couldn't see one of them! I'm thinking I should have just made a swarm trap and let it catch the ones who want to leave. This is too much work! 

I'll keep you posted.


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## Riff Raff (Oct 5, 2011)

Ok, started at 1400 just got done (1630). I weighed the bees that were in my box, and I think they were 13 pounds (21 pounds minus the weight of the box- 8 pounds). I contemplated making two splits but I decided against it. I am still new at this, so if I see my bees in the tree again, I will know that they still didn't have enough room. 

After seeing the time it took for the bees to walk up the ramp of my swarm box, the ones that were in the box in the end were simply dumped into the awaiting new box, 4 centre frames out, three on each side. I popped the 4 frames back in, and within minutes they were level. I put my inner cover on, and then my can feeder; they seemed happy. The original hive still has a lot of bees, I popped the top on it afterward and bees started bubbling out! Poop! 

I don't know where my queen is, only time will tell. I hope I didn't screw anything up. Maybe I'll check on them tomorrow and see how they're doing. I have seen a couple of bees flying in between hives. What will prevent the bees from flying back to the old hive?


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