# deeps vs mediums



## muusu (Mar 21, 2014)

Hi all,

While I am sure this has been covered, I cannot currently find the thread.

I have seen that some people use 3 medium brood supers and some 2 deep supers. I was hoping to hear some pros and cons of both, other than the weight of a full super. 

A brief background: We are currently working with deep boxes as that is what our mentor/supplier was using. We started with a mature hive and a split (both with deep brood boxes), the split was destroyed by a bear, so we have watched the remaining hive closely this winter with fingers crossed and so far everything looks good. I have plans to increase to 4 hives this summer and 6 or 8 next summer. 

So, if I am to consider a switch to medium supers, I would like to do so now before I get to far in. With that all said, any advice/suggestions/reasons why mediums might be superior to deeps I would love to hear it.

Thanks

Bill


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

deeps, cheaper less equipment. If you are old or weakling use mediums. Ideally I would like to make a frame/box that is somewhere between medium and deep. Like 7.5-8" perfect size imo for honey brood, everything. Call it the kentucky perfect


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## beegeorge (Apr 19, 2012)

toss in the argument that 8 frame vs 10 frame can reduce weight and you have another thing to think about,,

for me,, I am 63,, I can handle deep 10 frames for a few more years,, and when I cant I will go to 8 frame deeps,, but for supers,, I use shallows,, full they are about 35 lbs,, deeps full are up to 80 lbs,, 

it is a multi faceted discussion point that factors in what weight can you handle,, and how many do you have to handle?


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Its more than just weight , its about being able to interchange frames through out the whole hive , lite weight going the winter after the fall flow take frames of honey from the honey supers and put them in the brood chambers to help with winter stores , all the same size frames whether its all deeps or all mediums . I'm going with all mediums , not getting any younger , deeps full of honey are pushing 90 pds !!!!!


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

laketrout said:


> Its more than just weight , its about being able to interchange frames through out the whole hive , lite weight going the winter after the fall flow take frames of honey from the honey supers and put them in the brood chambers to help with winter stores , all the same size frames whether its all deeps or all mediums . I'm going with all mediums , not getting any younger , deeps full of honey are pushing 90 pds !!!!!


Amen! As I write this I have a deep 8 fr full of bees with a laying queen below a medium with some bees and a lot of mostly empty combs. I would have liked to pull some brood frames out of the bottom box and swap them with the empty frames from the top box, but of course, can't do because the frames are different sizes. :doh:


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## BeeRN (Apr 1, 2013)

burns375 said:


> deeps, cheaper less equipment. If you are old or weakling use mediums. Ideally I would like to make a frame/box that is somewhere between medium and deep. Like 7.5-8" perfect size imo for honey brood, everything. Call it the kentucky perfect


I bought some of those from Mann Lake by accident. Made feeders out of some, cut the rest down so my medium frames would fit. I believe they are one inch bigger than a medium.


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

I have no regrets about using 8 frame medium equipment. When the day comes that I can only lift this amount, I am prepared. A little extra equipment expense is less expensive than back troubles. I would think you'd use 4 8 frame mediums that far north.


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## muusu (Mar 21, 2014)

Beegeorge: We used shallow supers for honey last year, due to unforeseen circumstances I had to pull the honey super off solo and cant even imagine pulling a full deep super.

Laketrout: Interesting point, I had not really considered the mobility that using all mediums can provide, and with them being only slightly bigger than shallows they should still be manageable when full.

As for the 10 or 8 frame, I think I am going to stick with 10's for now.


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## ukewarrior (Jul 4, 2013)

I too run 100% 8 frame mediums.
Having only one size of hive and frame makes life much easier.
This is especially true now that you can get darn near any 'accessory' in 8 frame size from the major suppliers.
I am not a commercial beek.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If the weight isn't an issue for you then deeps are probably better. If the weight is going to be an issue then 8 frame mediums is as light as it gets while still being practical for making a honey crop. Which is better for you all hinges on the weight issue.

I'm a pretty big guy, and weight absolutely isn't an issue for me. Until I fractured a vertebra in a construction accident. Sure am glad I went 8 frame medium to begin with. Thank you Michael Bush.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I like the standardization of running all mediums. You are never with the wrong size supers or the wrong size frames when you need them.
Never ran deeps.. so I personally cannot compare them.


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## muusu (Mar 21, 2014)

Mr.Beeman said:


> I like the standardization of running all mediums. You are never with the wrong size supers or the wrong size frames when you need them.
> Never ran deeps.. so I personally cannot compare them.


good to hear from someone almost as far north as I am, there seems to be some debate about mediums in northern climates and the bee cluster not being able to bridge the gap from one super to the next.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I began keeping bees in the mid 1960's. I kept those first two 10-frame deeps, on the roof of our garden shed, and accessed them with a ladder. I was ten years old. I placed the hives on the roof, a piece at a time, until they were all assembled and in place on the roof. Then I carried up the packages and installed the bees. I was also an avid reader and subscribed to "Gleanings in Bee Culture", where I read an article advocating the use of medium depth supers, exclusively. I agreed, and soon switched my hives to that configuration -- and have primarily remained that way, until just recently, where I switched from 10-frame mediums, to 8-frame mediums.

I am caregiver to my wife, who is paraplegic due to MS. She needs me to always be healthy enough to help care for her, and to assist her in transferring to and from her wheelchair, several times per day. If I were to risk an injury, due to hive manipulations, it would do much more than inconvenience me, for a few days (while my back was healing). Though I am strong enough to easily manage those deep supers, and even 10-frame deeps, I realize that less weight in the bee yard = less chance of having a back injury from bee yard work, so a better chance that I will remain helpful to my wife - which is very important to me.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

muusu said:


> good to hear from someone almost as far north as I am, there seems to be some debate about mediums in northern climates and the bee cluster not being able to bridge the gap from one super to the next.


If the equipment is assembled correctly, the space between supers, is one bee space. If it is somehow unintentionally, larger, the bees usually build burr comb in much of that space, which again reduces the "empty" space. Not only can the bees, "bridge the gap", the "gap" can help them move between frames, and access more stores (like communication holes between combs). Cracks/openings between supers is usually sealed up with propolis. Back in the late 1960's and early '70's we relocated from Southern California, and I kept them this way in Eastern Ohio, also the blue ridge mountains of Virginia.


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## muusu (Mar 21, 2014)

Joseph Clemens said:


> If the equipment is assembled correctly, the space between supers, is one bee space. If it is somehow unintentionally, larger, the bees usually build burr comb in much of that space, which again reduces the "empty" space. Not only can the bees, "bridge the gap", the "gap" can help them move between frames, and access more stores (like communication holes between combs). Cracks/openings between supers is usually sealed up with propolis. Back in the late 1960's and early '70's we relocated from Southern California, and I kept them this way in Eastern Ohio, also the blue ridge mountains of Virginia.


Excellent points


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>While I am sure this has been covered, I cannot currently find the thread.

I would bet there are at least 2,000 threads on the subject...

>I have seen that some people use 3 medium brood supers and some 2 deep supers. 

And some, like me, are using four (or however many the queen wishes to occupy) eight frame mediums...

>I was hoping to hear some pros and cons of both, other than the weight of a full super.

The only pro to deeps in my opinion, is that they are somewhat cheaper (same cost more volume) however not enough to cover my back surgery if I used them...

>A brief background: We are currently working with deep boxes as that is what our mentor/supplier was using. We started with a mature hive and a split (both with deep brood boxes), the split was destroyed by a bear, so we have watched the remaining hive closely this winter with fingers crossed and so far everything looks good. I have plans to increase to 4 hives this summer and 6 or 8 next summer.

Sounds like a good time to change.

>So, if I am to consider a switch to medium supers, I would like to do so now before I get to far in. With that all said, any advice/suggestions/reasons why mediums might be superior to deeps I would love to hear it.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#uniformframesize

>If you are old or weakling use mediums. 

You will be surprised how rapidly that happens...

>good to hear from someone almost as far north as I am, there seems to be some debate about mediums in northern climates and the bee cluster not being able to bridge the gap from one super to the next. 

Actually the cluster is usually spanning that gap and it helps them move side to side. Deeps create walls between portions of the cluster. Mediums have a gap running across between the boxes allowing the bees to move side to side. My winters are typically -10 F for a couple of weeks. A lot of -20 F this year. All eight frame medium boxes.


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## muusu (Mar 21, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> Actually the cluster is usually spanning that gap and it helps them move side to side. Deeps create walls between portions of the cluster. Mediums have a gap running across between the boxes allowing the bees to move side to side. My winters are typically -10 F for a couple of weeks. A lot of -20 F this year. All eight frame medium boxes.


That makes a lot of sense. 

Thanks to everyone, that helped a ton. I will be setting up with all mediums starting this spring, assuming this pile of snow finally melts!


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

One more thing to think about , its fairly easy to change deeps to mediums , 2 mins. on the table saw and you have a med. But if you go 10 frame and some day want 8 frame , all your bottom boards , inner covers and top covers won't fit and it would be a heck of a job to make them fit , I still went with 10 frame , just something to be aware of now before you get alot of equipment . Good luck , and have fun .


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Pick a one depth. If you are in this for the money, pick a deep. If not, it does not matter, you can afford what ever is easiest for you.

Crazy Roland


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I also hear that a "cluster of bees cannot bridge the gap between supers", but then I remember an actual swarm cluster where they have nothing to hang on to but each other. 
Some swarm sizes are the size of basketballs (if not larger) breeze is blowing, branch is a swinging... but they still hang on.
Inside a hive..... no problem.


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## TxGypsy (Mar 17, 2012)

I agree. Make your life simpler and just use one size. I happen to use deeps. I do not take off deeps full of honey. I have built a long box that rides on an all terrain wagon. I remove one frame at a time and place it in the box.


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## larrybeach (May 25, 2013)

Txgyspy,
sounds like a good idea, might have to try it.


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## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

All mediums here. I will NOT use deeps for honey. Wayyyy too heavy.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

unless you have to have lighter equipment go deeps. cheaper and more importantly faster. I couldn't imagine going thru all the frames if they were mediums.

Finding the queen in a full honey production hive with mediums would be more time consuming not to mention on any other inspection or what not.

That being said there are those who love it and are doing well with it.


Is there any large operations running mediums? 500 colonies plus???


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Before you decide, make sure you pick up a full deep from three boxes up.... I thought deeps would be fine. Then I grabbed a full deep at chest height... Now I have a bunch of deeps I wish I didn't have, so I've moved them all to the bottom brood box. It would have been nice if I had listened to Mr. Bush right out of the gate. I will slowly migrate to all mediums. Mediums cost more for the same amount of comb, but probably not as much as surgery on your back.. Even my 30 year old son who works in a warehouse for a living is glad to have the deeps only on the bottom brood box. Don't talk yourself into something you haven't tried. It's easy to think "I'm strong enough".


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## Jon B (Apr 24, 2013)

I wrote a post last year on this topic. 

http://sidelinebeekeeping.com/2013/06/19/battle-of-the-supers-mediums-vs-deeps/

I definitely recommend using mediums for honey supers, but for now I will continue to use deeps for the bottom box and second.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

I love how many folks are planning on beekeeping well into there senior years.



Kamon Reynolds said:


> unless you have to have lighter equipment go deeps. cheaper and more importantly faster. I couldn't imagine going thru all the frames if they were mediums.
> 
> Finding the queen in a full honey production hive with mediums would be more time consuming not to mention on any other inspection or what not.
> 
> ...


We run mostly 8 frame westerns (6& 5/8 inch frames). 8 frame works well for us... 20% more pollination units on every truck load. We also run a lot of mating nucs so a three box brood nest allows us to make more nucs up per hive. There are more pieces to work with... a liability for some but a real asset for us. Personally I have no difficulty finding the queens in these units, but I find queens for a living. According to Dr Seeley honeybees naturally prefer about a 40L brood nest cavity so keep this in mind when making your selection.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Finding the queen in a full honey production hive with mediums would be more time consuming not to mention on any other inspection or what not.

First of all I try never to find queens unless necessary and it's hardly ever necessary. I manage my bees by the box in almost every way. But if I do have to find a queen, I can find her quicker in mediums. One swipe left to right is all it takes to tell if there is a queen. On a deep I have to go around at least twice because she could be moving as I cover the frame. After spending an entire day looking for queens in deeps after spending the day before looking for queens in mediums, I was struck how much easier it was on mediums.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

That has not been my experience with mediums or anyone else I know either. Then what of swarm cells. It only stands to reason that for someone running a "fulltime" operation deeps only or a deep/medium operation would be the only time efficient practice. While you obviously can keep bees in mediums, bigger brood combs is what I always find in feral colonies. Many of those bigger than dadant deeps.

I like taking the old queen out and placing them in new splits and giving my honey production colonies early fall queens. Mediums are more frames more boxes to handle more frames to stick a queen and queen cells. 

In my area I haul out pollen frames most years. Again more frames to grab. A simple compromise would be to haul out deep honey frames in a 4 frame nuc box instead of using more smaller equipment.

Unless there is a trick to it all common sense says it has lighter individual pieces, but is more work for the profitable beekeeper.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

One can not escape the fact that if you are an intensive nuc operation one will be able to get way more nucs made from westerns/mediums. Most of our mating nucs are a two-way medium... 4 frames per side. I have seen no increase in swarm impulse in deeps V mediums. Our operation is focused on queen production first and foremost but we also do a lot of pollination.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

JBJ said:


> One can not escape the fact that if you are an intensive nuc operation one will be able to get way more nucs made from westerns/mediums. Most of our mating nucs are a two-way medium... 4 frames per side. I have seen no increase in swarm impulse in deeps V mediums. Our operation is focused on queen production first and foremost but we also do a lot of pollination.


For example if your brood area is 10-frame two deeps versus 3 10-frame mediums one has 20 vs 30 frames to work with... that a lot more nucs and very efficient for us even with 8 frame units.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I bet I can check for a queen on 10 deep frames faster than any one else can on 20 or 30 frames, no matter what the size.

Crazy Roland


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

I would take that bet! Assuming you are running a double deep brood nest?


There are a few tricks... the key us to look in the box she is in first.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

How about we average it out over 100 brood nests in a session?


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## CajunBee (May 15, 2013)

Who cares? The OP is obviously just starting out. If he's doing it as a hobby, he can do whatever he wants. If growing into a business, he'll have to do what works for the business. 
I'm a hobby keeper and could care less how many frames or if I see the queen. Time is on my side!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>the key us to look in the box she is in first. 

That's always my plan and it works more times than not.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I subscribe to the Deeper and Wider is better philosophy. I have been switching to 11 and 5/8th depth and 12 frames wide. Cost wise per box is about the same as deeps or mediums, but equipment wise I need much less per hive. 

I don't get the lighter is better philosophy as a beekeeper. It is like a dairy farmer saying he should milk beef breeds because they milk faster.

Also if you are on all mediums and put on a medium super, which they fill in a week, but you can't add another one when you should due to weather or whatever... But your neighbor does the same thing with deep boxes and also gets delayed putting on the next super. What hive will make more honey?


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

> I don't get the lighter is better philosophy as a beekeeper.


you can add 2 mediums instead of 1 deep and be in the same spot as your scenario. i'd think 16 mediums would do as much as 10 deep? but once you have full boxes you can lift them off individually easier. This is handy when you're not a big operation with many workers helping. Also good for people with limitations like shoulder/back injuries. 

My reason is that all of my frames are the same size. I will be able to move frames to and from any of my boxes or nucs.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Also if you are on all mediums and put on a medium super, which they fill in a week, but you can't add another one when you should due to weather or whatever... 

I usually add them four or five at a time... why would you only put on one super?


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

bluegrass said:


> I subscribe to the Deeper and Wider is better philosophy. I have been switching to 11 and 5/8th depth and 12 frames wide. Cost wise per box is about the same as deeps or mediums, but equipment wise I need much less per hive.
> 
> I don't get the lighter is better philosophy as a beekeeper. It is like a dairy farmer saying he should milk beef breeds because they milk faster.
> 
> Also if you are on all mediums and put on a medium super, which they fill in a week, but you can't add another one when you should due to weather or whatever... But your neighbor does the same thing with deep boxes and also gets delayed putting on the next super. What hive will make more honey?


Just keep this thread for the next 30 years and at the end of those 30 if you are still healthy and no back problems or knee problems let us all know if those deep and wide are still what you love.
Being in your 20s or 30's is tons of difference than 50's and 60's. 
I wish I was still 10 feet tall and bullet proof! But I aint!!! I dont water ski or snow ski bronc or bull ride or work the shrimp, oyster, fish boats, or roughneck anymore. Wish I never had now but so is life.
I've been with the bees 63 years and plan on being with them more but their homes will all be in 8 frame mediums.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I will check back in in 15 years when I am in my 50s and let you know how it is going... Isn't Odfrank in his 50s? He runs Jumbos. 

If the industry standard was 8 frame mediums for brood and shallows for supers, the all medium crowed would be using all 6 frame shallows today instead of 8 frame mediums.. Or if the Dadant depth became the standard then the same people would be running all deeps. Weight is relative. 

Bro Adam wrote extensively on the topic and his observations concluded that larger and deeper hives produce larger crops then the smaller volume hives... He experimented around with 5-6 different types of hives before settling on the Dadant due to the same bees making larger crops in larger hives.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Also if you are on all mediums and put on a medium super, which they fill in a week, but you can't add another one when you should due to weather or whatever...
> 
> I usually add them four or five at a time... why would you only put on one super?


Repetitive motion is harder on your joints then weight is. That is why runners blow their knees out and need joint replacements at a higher frequency then the general population. Why throw on 5 boxes when you could just put two deeps on?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If the industry standard was 8 frame mediums for brood and shallows for supers, the all medium crowed would be using all 6 frame shallows today instead of 8 frame mediums..

Some organizations recommend 50 pounds for males and 25 pounds for females. OSHA recommends any weight over 75 pounds should be lifted by more than one person. Most recommendations try to discuss HOW you lift, of course, which is a big part of it, but in my experience bee hives are seldom convenient to lift. The other issue is, even if you just pried them apart, the boxes are usually stuck together when you lift them so you're often lifting some of the weight of the box below...

The generally recommended maximum lifting weight from the CDC and NIOSH is 35 pounds. A 10 frame deep full of honey exceeds this by 157% (257% of that weight) at 90 pounds. An eight frame deep exceeds this by 37% (137% of that weight) at 48 pounds. Everyone probably SHOULD use 8 frame shallows, but I'm happy getting the weight down to 48 pounds or less. It's not a matter of proportion, it's a matter of total weight. Try to buy feed in 100 pound sacks now. That was a standard feed sack when the Langstroth deep came out. It's not anymore because it was not a good idea in the first place. I used to buy 100 pound bags because they came in burlap and I wanted the burlap and I didn't mind the weight at all when I was 20 and doing construction all day... but it was probably not a good idea then either.

>Bro Adam wrote extensively on the topic and his observations concluded that larger and deeper hives produce larger crops then the smaller volume hives... 

He was comparing one British standard box with an excluder with one Dadant deep box with an excluder. I'm quite certain the Dadant deep box produced more, as the British standard box is too small. But two British standard boxes might have done just as well.


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sure glad the ACA is law so maybe bigger and heftier is better for all you youngsters.
time will tell.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

bluegrass said:


> Repetitive motion is harder on your joints then weight is. That is why runners blow their knees out and need joint replacements at a higher frequency then the general population. Why throw on 5 boxes when you could just put two deeps on?


got a link for that wild speculation? running is extremely high impact. you are hitting the ground at many times your own weight onto one leg. now look at cycling where you use gears to reduce the impact and be more efficient and your joints are much happier. 

the general population are fat lazy couch potatoes who probably die of heart disease and diabetes before they need any joints replaced anyway. 

I worked in a PT clinic where we'd have guys who were on workers comp. rehabbing. Much of the workout was lifting boxes of different weights with proper technique. It is very easy to use proper technique even over your head with 25lb. you get into the 50+ lb range you would be very hard pressed to keep proper technique.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Bro Adam wrote extensively on the topic and his observations concluded that larger and deeper hives produce larger crops then the smaller volume hives...
> 
> He was comparing one British standard box with an excluder with one Dadant deep box with an excluder. I'm quite certain the Dadant deep box produced more, as the British standard box is too small. But two British standard boxes might have done just as well.


A Dadant depth frame has approx 1700 more cells per frame then a lang Deep. For the average queen that can be a day longer per frame if she lays a good pattern. Have you ever watch the queen in an OB hive search for a new place to lay? I speculate that over the course of the season just the time saved by the increase in cells per frame is what accounts for larger hive populations and larger honey crops.


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## Moots (Nov 26, 2012)

bluegrass said:


> ..I speculate that over the course of the season just the time saved by the increase in cells per frame is what accounts for larger hive populations and larger honey crops.


bluegrass,
I've just had my OH for about two weeks now, it's 8 medium frames, single stacked. Watched my queen just the other day walk from the bottom of the fourth frame, across the third, and all the way to the top of the second frame in probably about 15 seconds without ever breaking stride when transitioning from one frame to the next. I'm afraid what I observed wouldn't support your speculation...But as long as we're speculating, I'd offer the theory that mediums make it easier for the queen to transition from one side of a frame to the other, more opportunities to cut through to the other side located closer together!


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

That is with the hive open and her running for cover... When she is searching for a new place to lay it takes her time to find a suitable place and settle into laying again. Sometimes hrs.


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## Moots (Nov 26, 2012)

bluegrass said:


> That is with the hive open and her running for cover... When she is searching for a new place to lay it takes her time to find a suitable place and settle into laying again. Sometimes hrs.


No, she's really not a runner! As a matter of fact, for the two weeks I've observed her, I've never seen her run or appear hurried in any way. And to clarify, the hive wasn't open, it's an Observation hive...The covers had been off for a significant amount of time and she was just going about her usual business comfortably moving throughout the hive. And as I said, the fact that she had to cross from one medium frame to another, and then another, wasn't even noticeable. Honestly, it surprised me, because I actually thought it would cause her to pause, or hesitate, or reroute, or something....but, nothing at all on either transition.


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## JWG (Jun 25, 2004)

As described in his book, Bro. Adam experimented first with doubling up the British National hives (to two deeps) and was pleased with the improved results: better crops, stronger colonies, better wintering. He compared this arrangement to the large single-brood chamber hives, and preferred and switched to the latter.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Sorry moot; I missed that it was an OB hive. Going from frame to frame is fine, but does she stop laying on one and immediately start laying on the other? That is what I am referring to. 

The OP wanted opinions other then weight. That is what I got; Cheaper because of less equipment to run, and a Monk who spent his whole life with God and the bees said they produce better.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Unless they are going to run all deeps then having all mediums lets you put any frame in any box across your whole yard.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

JBJ - no, the 10 deep frames I must search are all in one deep.


Crazy Roland


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

I will be 65 in Aug. and I wish I had gone down the path that Mike Bush did. However I currently have 3 hives with 2 10 frame deeps and 3 hives with 3 med. supers for brood chambers (foundation less in med.). The med. boxes are much easier on the back but I was a little concerned over 8 frame box stability here in Houston when hurricane winds hit us so I stuck with the 10 frame units.


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## Moots (Nov 26, 2012)

bluegrass said:


> Sorry moot; I missed that it was an OB hive. Going from frame to frame is fine, but does she stop laying on one and immediately start laying on the other? That is what I am referring to.
> 
> The OP wanted opinions other then weight. That is what I got; Cheaper because of less equipment to run, and a Monk who spent his whole life with God and the bees said they produce better.


No problem bluegrass,
Concerning the OP's question...I think the "FACTS" are few and pretty straight forward.

Absolutes:

Using all mediums will provide a lighter more manageable box weight as well as the benefit of universal frame size, allowing movement of any frame from any box, to any box, in your operation. These two advantages come with a price, literally....It takes more physical equipment (e.g. boxes, frames) to house the same number of bees, therefore your equipment cost are higher.

Now, maybe I'm missing something, but I think that pretty much sums up the "absolutes". EVERYTHING else mentioned in this thread pretty much falls into a different category... and I'll use your word for that, "speculation". 

All this, they over winter better, or not as good, as just as good.....Or, the queen lays better, or more....Or, it's easier to spot the queen on a medium, or harder on a deep, etc. etc. etc. is PURE SPECULATION and personal opinion. We just as soon start a thread on what's the best color, or the luckiest number....


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Moots said:


> All this, they over winter better, or not as good, as just as good.....Or, the queen lays better, or more....Or, it's easier to spot the queen on a medium, or harder on a deep, etc. etc. etc. is PURE SPECULATION and personal opinion.


I've done both....all mediums and and a deep & a medium overwintering. They overwintered equally for me. Now I just use a 10 frame deep and a medium. I just like a deep as it it not as many frames to examine. It is an extremely rare time that I PU a heavy deep. Most of the time that I pick them up, they're empty and I'm reversing. My deeps also have a frame feeder so that brings the number of frames in a deep to 9 sometimes 8. As to inter-changeability of frames, I have no problem sticking a medium frame in a deep at times if need be. The bees will just build some brood comb there that I'll get the next time around.

If I were starting anew, I'd probably go with 2, 8 frame deeps for brood chambers and 8 frame medium supers. But that's just me.......


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

My favorite is still deep horizontal. Expensive to build but why lift boxes at all if you don't have to. Space to feed inside, bees don't get as riled up, and since I build with insulation in the walls no winter prep other than reducing the entrance and checking stores. I put an entrance on either end too so I can make a split in the same box by moving some frames... now I just need to get up the gumption to build more... also worthless if you want to move hives too.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Mr. C said:


> My favorite is still deep horizontal. Expensive to build but why lift boxes at all if you don't have to. Space to feed inside, bees don't get as riled up, and since I build with insulation in the walls no winter prep other than reducing the entrance and checking stores. I put an entrance on either end too so I can make a split in the same box by moving some frames... now I just need to get up the gumption to build more...* also worthless if you want to move hives too*.


What you describe sounds like a variation on a Dartington hive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ISn4piHiA

In all reality how often do any of us hobby beekeepers move boxes? If I set up a hive in the spring it doesn't get moved until fall. The only boxes I am puting on are empty and even with a dozen or so hives Super removal is only done a couple of times per hive at most.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> What you describe sounds like a variation on a Dartington hive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ISn4piHiA
> 
> In all reality how often do any of us hobby beekeepers move boxes? If I set up a hive in the spring it doesn't get moved until fall. The only boxes I am puting on are empty and even with a dozen or so hives Super removal is only done a couple of times per hive at most.


I looked at the Dartington when I was designing, but you still super it (this was originally intended for someone with a serious back condition and was going to even add a lift assist for the lid). You can see pics here, if you look close you can see the walls/roof are constructed with a 1" styrofoam core.
http://2people40acres.wordpress.com/2013/07/05/peanut-butter-bars-a-honeybeebeer-update/

As to moving boxes, I guess it just depends whether you are talking about moving them to a new location, which is what I was referring to, or just stacking and unstacking them. I move them quite frequently for inspections. This way I just lift the lid and whatever inner cover I need to pop open.


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## muusu (Mar 21, 2014)

This thread has certainly taken on a life of its own. Lots of great information and I appreciate all the insight and suggestions.

I realize now that asking "deeps or mediums?" is right up there with "chevy or ford?" or "coke or pepsi?", everyone has their own thing and once someone picks a side it can be hard to get them to reverse course.

For me, I think I am going to go with 10 frame mediums this year, I might switch to 8's next year, have to think on that. I am doing this as a hobby at the moment, I have had enough of employees and at this point in my life and don't plan to ever have them again, so I only want as many hives as myself and my family can manage. Equipment costs for me are not really a determining factor, I have access to trees, a sawmill, and I am a carpenter, so an extra box or 3 per hive is not a big deal.

Thanks to everyone for giving me things to consider.


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