# CVH (Compact Vertical Hive) by GregV



## RPA2019 (Oct 7, 2019)

is this a 6 frame hive?


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

RPA2019 said:


> is this a 6 frame hive?


If it'll help - in the other thread, Greg says it's a 300x300 hive - that makes it 8-frame. But I'm sure Greg will be along shortly to confirm.

*Greg *- nice job :thumbsup: 
LJ


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## RPA2019 (Oct 7, 2019)

Are you going to be using a deeper frame in the broodnest area?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> If it'll help - in the other thread, Greg says it's a 300x300 hive - that makes it 8-frame. But I'm sure Greg will be along shortly to confirm.
> 
> *Greg *- nice job :thumbsup:
> LJ


Thanks LJ.
It is a *nominal *300x300 square (exact +/- millimeters do not really matter, of course).
8-9 frames.
1.25/1.375 inch frames - will fit 9.
1.5 inch frames - will fit 8.

The square bottom:







Standard square box:








Of course, it makes sense to have some space to shift frames, and so 8 frames is preferred then.
On Saturday I transferred a live trap colony into it - squeezed in 9 frames so to not leave out anything useful.

After much deliberation and research, I ditched the ability to run frames both cold and warm way (due to some technicalities on converting 10-frame Lang boxes - which I like recycling). 
It will be the *warm-way* for me forward on.
I don't see much any benefits in the *cold-way* when using short frames (nothing but drawbacks, really).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

RPA2019 said:


> is this a 6 frame hive?


8-9 frame.

However, it is compatible to 6-7 medium Lang frames (by the comb area).
By box weight/comb area this is very similar to a 6-frame hive.
Just different ergonomics/energy profile (better IMO).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

RPA2019 said:


> Are you going to be using a deeper frame in the broodnest area?


Not by default.
I want to be able to *populate *my CVs from my deep long hives/deep swarm traps - hence the built-in compatibility.
OR I also want to be able to populate from standard Lang frames - which are also fully supported - just drop them in with very minimal or NO mods.
Typical source frames are pictured.








But those converted will be shifted onto the standard frames (and the deep frames are to be removed in some weeks).
I wanna be able to run a unit as small as a single box - which could be a mating nuc on 2 small frames or a full size nuc on 8-9 small frames.

I want to be able to largely manage the CVs by the box (and not monkey with the individual frames as much as possible).
A single box fitted with 9 small standard frames is compatible in comb area to 3 deep Dadant frames (~4 deep Lang frames or ~6 medium Lang frames) - very much manageable by a small person like me.

This white frame proto-type is my new standard frame (as compared to Land medium frame).


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Nice! Especially like the pegs. Lots of other good ideas to 'borrow' when I get time. Too many irons in the fire at the moment.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

GregV said:


> I also envision c**** for alternative holding of the boxes ...


:no:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> :no:


LOL; would not let me fix now.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> :no:


A Mod fixed it.
Thanks for the alert!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

There was a question/concern with the pegged design - it seems no way to slide the boxes (so to reduce the # of bees squashed).
With the pegs facing *down*, you can slide the boxes - not a problem.
Like so:








The pegs facing DOWN have other benefits too (vs. the original pegged design with the pegs facing UP):
- you can stand a box on any surface without smashing the bees
- you can temporarily and snugly cover the box (or entire hive) with fabric or plywood or ceramic tile, similar to a conventional box (where nothing is protruding up).

In general, the peg makes for a very strong corner - this is what really holding the corners - perpendicular screws driven into the peg.
No screws ever are driven *along *the wood grain (a very weak joint).
The screws are always driven across the wood grain (a strong joint).








Otherwise the box is just assembled by few staples to temporarily hold it together until the pegs are installed.
This makes for a trivial removing of the pegs and repairs/mods and installing the pegs back (which I have done several time trying to work the glitches out).
The pegs are really an expandable item and easily/cheaply replaced without a need to disassemble the entire box.

Another feature of the peg - box separation.
With the pegs, one needs not cut into the boxes to separate them.
You separate the boxes by leveraging the pegs (there is built-in 1/8" separation between the pegs - they do not touch).
Like so:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

It is a shame I forgot to take a picture to demonstrate how stable the stack is.
I would move it around and tilt it as I wished.
One can easily lean the tower all way to 60-70 degrees and it holds together as a unit without additional strapping (the strapping will make this tower solid as a rock).

The pegs make moving the boxes really nice - nothing shifts around in a car (it is the original military crate feature as I mentioned).
I am getting a bit tired of Lang boxes sliding all over my minivan when I move the stuff around.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Another feature of this particular CVH - box-to-box partial compatibility with 10-frame Lang boxes.
This is one reason why I decided to build the first batch of boxes by just recycling the Lang boxes I had on hand - to design-in the backward box-compatibility.

In a pinch, regular 10-frame boxes (and the regular frames included) can be used intermixed with the CV boxes (with very minimal adjustments).

The current square configuration allows to intermix longer Lang boxes when out of native equipment.
Backward compatibility with the common equipment is beneficial when going a custom way (be it a frame or a box).
A typical issue with most Warre makers/users, they fail to see this obvious fact and them paint themselves into the corner (the same with the TB hives too).

The red lines show about how the commercial Lang box would overlay onto the CV stack.








(LJ has been advocating for the same idea forever - intermixing partially compatible equipment).

This is a very similar idea to what this beek does (mix and match) 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ue2ensA-HU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdW164Uh1iI


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## Honeyeater (Jun 21, 2020)

Hi Greg I like this. Your peg design makes a lot of sense.

This may be a stupid question, and I'm sure the answer is there somewhere on the forum, but I couldn't find it - what is the advantage of CVHs over standard langs? Is it the weight/manageability of the boxes?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Honeyeater said:


> Hi Greg I like this. Your peg design makes a lot of sense.
> 
> This may be a stupid question, and I'm sure the answer is there somewhere on the forum, but I couldn't find it - what is the advantage of CVHs over standard langs? Is it the weight/manageability of the boxes?


I spent last couple of years now monitoring this trend of modern CV hive variants (simply more modern versions of Warre and DeLong hives).
This is before I decided trying it out and getting the real feel for it and selecting the design features.
Importantly, I have live examples where people successfully use CVH designs from near subtropical settings all way to deep Siberia - so the idea is flexible as practice demonstrates. I also keep track of various business models - starting from 100% static small-scale settings all way to commercial migratory beeks where such hives are moved around on trailers.

Basically, these are tall and narrow hives that resemble natural tree hollows in many respects.
Generally, these hives have close to square 300x300 cross-sections (about 8-9 frames).
The frames are of multiple designs can be found, but significantly they only are different in the depth (from 3-4 inches all way to 19 inches and even deeper).

Bee advantages:
- better energy/moisture/climate management in such cavities, especially so in cold climates - these amounts to good wintering outcomes while using very little stores
- consequently, better life cycle of the colony throughout the year - this then amounts to healthy swarming patterns, btw (regardless of the human attitudes towards it)

Human advantages (some of the "advantages" very much *dependent on the small frame size* - not to rehash this over and over).
- obviously, lighter boxes
- naturally, this makes the equipment well adapted for mobility (especially with the pegged designs)
- simple and cheap frame designs (by default no wiring and similar rigging is needed at all - again, for small frames only)
- being able to efficiently manage the hives "by a box" - no need for individual frame inspections for many procedures
- using *standard *equipment for small colony projects (e. g. mating nucs, etc).
- having the bee nests segments (bee bread, brood, honey) conveniently separated between the boxes
- ability to have harvest in low producing area
- ability to still harvest in poor weather (e.g. early spring)
- ability to harvest mono-sourced honeys
- ability to run more colonies while having them of a smaller size and still sustainable and producing

Surely, I missed some ideas (I just dumping them from my head).

And, of course, there are disadvantages.
Some of these can easily be deduced from the above items (pretty much every advantage can be argued as having its flaws).

What is wrong with my long hives then?
Nothing, except - I can hardly move them around by myself (and I mean serious transporting the live hives site to a site, not toying around on a backyard).


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## Honeyeater (Jun 21, 2020)

Thanks for that Greg. Yes of the main disadvantage with long hives is their immovability.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Stumbled upon a design nearly identical to mine.
Great minds....
LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IA4SNEE6Ns


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

This is why one would want 1)pegged hives and 2)strap each hive as a unit, and 3)strap the hives together as well, if possible.

This guy keeps his CV hives in a remote, bear-infested area and has done none of the ideas I would have done.
His protective fence fell due to the wind; the 1, 2, 3 would be good measures until the fence rebuilt.
Of course, the pegged hives need to build from the get-go.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OK, time for an update...
I now am getting around to be cutting some frames for my original CVH prototype.
Once done, I will populate the CVH onto the proper small frames - will probably by a swarm or will shake some bees or something along that line. The bees that currently live in the CVH on the large frames will have to be kicked out.... Oh well, too bad.

So the proper CVH frames should meet this criteria in my view (and this is what I pursue):

as cheap as possible - raw materials should be free and widely available
as simple as possible - similar to T-34 or PPS-43 approach where the product can be made by common, non-expensive, unsophisticated tools by personnel with low qualifications/experience; fault tolerances should be high enough where +/- 0.125" does not effect the frame usability.
compatible enough to the conventional equipment so that can be leveraged - conventionally sized extractors can be used to harvest the crop (with very minimal mods OR as is).

Pretty much what I am using:

portable table saw and compressed air staple gun
free 2x4 lumber scraps (I only use 2x4 US lumber - found a rip approach with very little waste)
the only thickness I use when rip wood - 3/8" all way around
I got zero non-straight cuts (those Hoffman curves or approximations are totally unnecessary)
6 one inch staples per a frame - strength and rigidity is satisfactory for a small frame
top and bottom pieces - 1 inch wide
side pieces - 1.25 inch wide

Of course, it makes sense to make some jig for the frame assembly (still WIP for me, but it works fine).

The nominal dimension of this frame 12.5" x 6.25".
The top bar is 14.75" (contains a general grove for a foundation or wooden starter strip).
These dimensions make the frame compatible to my long hives.

Few pics.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

How it compares to conventional Lang medium frame:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Pieces before assembly.
I pre-cut three different types of pieces for about 100 frames.
I figure for a 6-box CVH one needs to have 100 frames so to have enough supply during the flow rotation.
Took few 2x4 scraps.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

In the hive box:


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## WaverlyBees (Jul 13, 2012)

Greg, are the end bars touching each other over their entire length? If so, are you concerned about the bees gluing them together?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

WaverlyBees said:


> Greg, are the end bars touching each other over their entire length? If so, are you concerned about the bees gluing them together?


Touching - yes, by design (this means to create a double-wall).

Concerned - not terribly.

First - this is meant to be "by a box" management system and so flipping the frames should be avoided until you really mean it for a good reason. 

In general, this is a modified 300x300 Warre system.
The classic Warre system does not presume or provide much for frame by frame maintenance. Well, this means one can sufficiently manage things box by box without flipping the frames.
Like this guy does primarily box by box management:


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0Jf8aAMix06UG4AGGmsbuA



Still, my prototype also fully supports frame by frame work if needs be.

Secondly, notice the touching part is not much more than a conventional Lang med frame

Lang is touching by about 60-70% of the surface
mine - 100%; that is about 30-40% difference on a small frame
So it will be marginally harder to separate my frames vs. the conventional.
This should not really be a show stopper because, remember, these are still small frames.
Though I will admit up front there will be variability colony from colony - always a factor.

Thirdly, in pure honey super I envision separating the frames apart for much thicker combs - about 1.5" separation or even more. So that solves that problem.
The default 1.25" is there really for 1)brood-only usage and especially 2)nuc usage to optimize the small colony environment.

Finally - this is exactly the design of this guy (he means it and has been doing this for ages and stands by it - he does run Carnica and not propolis-crazy Caucasians, to be sure):


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf5er_Xtmxgp_A8fIoB8YfQ



Will see.
That's why this is a working CVH prototype to test out the theories in practice.


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## WaverlyBees (Jul 13, 2012)

Thanks, Greg. I certainly appreciate your willingness to experiment and share your adventures with us. I am currently running 4 different types of hives including standard langs and still experimenting. My current focus is getting away from he standard Hoffman style frames. Not necessarily the dimensions, just the construction. Simply looking for a way to achieve the same result with simpler frame design. I've seen several folks on here that use a straight end bar with spacers attached to the top bar to achieve proper bee space and that is what I am playing with now.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Did a very quick and easy modification to the side pieces - shaved off the corners as mitigation for the frames catching the corners when inserting.
It only takes 1-2 quick cuts by a razor blade per a corner - a minor investment to, hopefully, remove the potential future aggravation when going live with this.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Compatibility of the large frame/small frame equipment allows for additional flexibility.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OK, I got my CV hive back tonight, now I can continue with my experiment.
Hopefully I will make a shook swarm tomorrow directly onto the proper small frames.

Though, the forecast is rainy (just like it was today - I managed the bee move in between the rains).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A shook swarm it is - just a queen and bunch of young bees.
I essentially shook the entire blue hive into my CVH.
The forages will return back home to their brood and will start a new chapter on their own.

The two lower boxes should be packed enough with the young bees to rebuild from near zero - I did insert few saved up starter combs - empty and bee bread to chew for now.
All the above boxes are a storage for a couple large frames with plenty of honey to scavenge from; a big pile of combs to scavenge from, and more empty frames for later expansion.

A soft cover separates the two lower boxes from the above - actual bee nest from the utility space - with passages for scavenging the above.
The soft cover - piece of well propolised fabric taken from the blue hive so that it smells like "home, sweet home".

Little side note...
The unfamiliarity with the soft covers that I observe around me is really a shame.
The soft covers make the multi-box design so much more flexible and powerful that many people don't realize.
All the while the soft covers are just so stupid simple (my favorite) - most any fabric and plastic film (even paper!) can be used to create appropriate cover/divider in a matter of seconds to any custom size needed by anyone capable of using scissors.

The equipment notes:

I am really pleased with the box design now that I got to play with the boxes live (as was originally intended).
I put the stack up and took it down few times while setting it up.... Logistics, don't ask.
the boxes nicely self-allign just by the design
the corners are just great for holding at (especially when working high or just ad-hoc moving around)
once again - the transportation is where the self-locking corners really shine
I definitely want to add the horizontal cleats all way around - I wish they were there at times (those factory side cuts are really a joke - commercial beeks can use them all they want - the hobbyists.... why in the world do you want to work with such poor ergonomics, dunno)..


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

GregV said:


> Little side note...
> The unfamiliarity with the soft covers that I observe around me is really a shame.
> The soft covers make the multi-box design so much more flexible and powerful that many people don't realize.


I learned to value the soft cover from you, Thanks. I expanded a little and made a follower board by simply stapling a piece of canvas on an empty frame. Quick, cheap, easy, and no saw needed to cut a board to fit.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> Quick, cheap, easy, and no saw needed to cut a board to fit.


With an understanding that eventually the bees may chew through it (may or may not).
But by then you may find time to build an actual board OR in a manner of a minute, you redo the canvas implement again. 
Can do double/triple canvas too at exact same speed.
If not for a good supply of the boards I got by now, I would actually try this - never occurred to me!
Great idea.

I retired a futon mattress last year (good mulch for under the bushes).
The mattress outer shell made from very strong cotton fabric is great for just this application - got a good supply cut up from a single mattress shell.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

These guys were doing really well, until...
Yesterday went in and found that I, evidently, pinched a queen.
So the expansion to the third box will be delayed now until they grow a new queen.
I can not get back in until mid-August now. Oh well...
We make plans so that they can fail.

I like the way they are building foundation-less.
Maybe with feeding in late summer we'll get more of these pretty little frames built-out.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OK, the season is over and 2021/2022 winter is ahead of us.
Yesterday late afternoon I finally got around to stop over by the CVH (as was dropping of my teen by her friend - make sense to combine a drive; it is a 10 mile drive).

Removed the empty feeding gadgets for good.

So - I am happy.
This is exactly the vertical hive format that I can actually handle.
A full of honey, 9-10 frame box I can relatively easily lift and move around as I wish and not be under extreme duress (this is about 6 medium frames in Lang format).
Handling of the boxes is very good - those corner lags combined with side cuts OR cleats make it a please moving these boxes around.

Why no bees on the pictures?
Well, it is cold; about 45F and the bees promptly squeeze between the frames to stay warm.
This is a healthy 3-box colony fully stocked with sugar honey for Wisconsin winter.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I really like how these small frames are well suited for natural comb.
Also, the small format is great for reusing any odd-ball pieces of comb I have - simply insert them into a frame and tape around - bees affix the pieces into the place rather nicely. 

You can notice on my pictures remnants of painters tape on the frames - how I started many of these frames just by inserting into place some junk comb pieces.

Reuse, reduce, recycle.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Winter stores - the colony will winter on 3 boxes, not entirely full - will be 26 frames as I removed few empties on the top.
Additional 2 boxes on the top will used be for insulation and frame storage.

Soft cover will separate the bees from the utility space above - how ran the unit through entire summer - very handy!
The utility space above the bees afforded by soft cover usage is a no brainer.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Speaking of


> 16. The bottom board is flat which catches rain if not tilted. Why not make them slanted! Yes Roland, this one is for you.


From: Notes from listening to Etienne Tardif -- advantages of...

I really like this bottom design (of my own).
All the the talks of water in the bottom boards are - again a puzzle to me. 
Of course the current commercial bottom board "design" is at fault.

A single round entrance (with anti-mice wire screen on the inside).
No landing board - that unnecessary water/snow/trash collector - the bees don't care whatsoever.
The floor is slatted - a penny is used to space out the floor planks.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Picked up from the YT another idea for the bottom part.
Though I still don't want the "landing board" part.
Rather the ventilation grill implementation is good IMO.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

And yet another bottom implementation.
Same idea - mostly solid with very limited ventilation which the bees are free to plug if they want.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

In my own experimentation, the bees propolised the central slots (marked in red) and left alone the very side slots (marked in green).
Frames in this hive are oriented in the warm-way - meaning perpendicular to the bottom's planks.

So, given a choice, this was what the bees chose to do.
This was the status as of my last pre-winter revision in November 2021.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Early spring is here and I am doing my rounds and counting the hives.
Pleased with the CVH.
So far this was *the only hive where bees ignored the dry emergency feed *laying on the frame tops.
Far from it - it seems that the bees ate very, very little honey.
The top box (#3) is completely untouched.
The other boxes (#1 and #2) are only half empty.
At present the cluster mostly sits in the box #2 (as depicted).

The only thing I did not like - there was more attrition than I would have liked.
But these are Italian bees and they don't winter in Wisconsin too well - four months is pushing it for them.
But the remaining cluster is fully viable as-is now - bees are bringing pollen in.

Definitely, need to build more CVHs now.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

that's a very nice position for spring build up, much more efficient than Italians tend to be.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> that's a very nice position for spring build up, much more efficient than Italians tend to be.


Well, this queen turned rather mediocre in that the colony had too much winter attrition.
I now set them up in the box #3 right under the top insulation for better build-up.
Not the fault of the hive itself.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here comes one dislike for my CVH hive - finding the queen or finding the QCs can become a major hassle.
This also requires some agreeable bees that can take the abuse.
Which was anticipated, of course.

Went through the gymnastics twice already as of recent.
Hopefully last night was the final case as I attempted culling the QCs so to re-queen this set.
Of course - the ability to swing around fully loaded boxes is still a huge bonus (which btw, tells me that 6F Lang setup is just about the box size I would keep IF on the Lang system).

It is kind of a mess (pictured), but since I combined into this vertical stack a weak long hive - I temporarily have a mix of frames (both small and large) in the same stack - which adds to the hassle of the QC search, but this also demonstrates the flexibility of the design (which is a plus).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Quick bump.
This is how you break the boxes apart with pegged hives (or horned hives - the same).
The boxes are not damaged at all.
The pegs are the expandable part - but these are hard to damage.

(206) Breaking apart boxes in a peg hive. - YouTube


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OK, today I broke apart the CVH stack so I could treat it with lactic.

Observations:

treated it in a way similar to Randy O. - dribbled between the frames
despite my poor shoulder I can handle the honey full boxes OK.
you don't see many bees in the picture because they congregate inside box (it was about 50-55F)
I found most of the cluster in boxes 4-5 (where most of the honey is)
removed the box 1 (totally empty) and placed it on the top for storage
entire stack came down one box and the bees will be wintering in the boxes 3-4
boxes 4-5 contain empty combs and are used as storage
two boxes full of honey should suffice I think (it will be similar to two boxes of 6F Lang) - last winter they ate so little I could hardly believe it
earlier in the season I harvested a box of honey;
I wish I got more honey but this colony had a poor season start (high winter losses) and later went thru two re-queen attempts before they took a queen of my own production
Will see how the winter #2 goes.
One thing about people scrambling for storage - use your stacks for storage.
Simply separate the storage boxes from the live boxes by a soft cover (plastic, fabric, etc).
I leave small passages along the cloth for the bees to go up if they want it.
These passages are also for the stack ventilation.

Also taped shut the main entrance down there
Bees no longer guard it and the YJs have been getting free pass to steal all the honey they want.
I have not seen this issue anywhere in my hives, but the CVH.
I wonder if this is similar to what people experience in Lang stacks - the robbing issue discussion goes non-stop.
The bees go up the stack and leave behind the bottom entrance unguarded/poorly guarded - robbing situation sets in.
Even tiny mini-nucs in my holdings don't have this issue.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

More pics


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I was watching a video and captured a good shot that demonstrates how ergonomic this hive is.
This is exactly what I need for my bad shoulder.

Anything at or above the shoulder height stresses me and presents a chance for an injury.

This is exactly what I do too when working my CVH - just as pictured.
You can look at the video for exact details at about 7:00.










(899) Метод Стоянова. Зимовка отводков на 145-ую рамку, над основным гнездом. - YouTube


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