# Small Cell Foundation Help, Please



## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

Hello,

I'll be getting my first couple of nucs next month and need some help with foundations. The nucs are coming from a small cell keeper in north-east Alabama. I've decided to run all 8-frame mediums but I'm having trouble deciding on the type of foundation to use. I've also had no luck finding small cell keepers in my area. 

I plan to start with foundation but may eventually go foundation-less. I'd like to hear what other small cell keepers using all mediums are using in their brood chambers and honey supers.

All wax small cell throughout? All wax small cell in the brood boxes with regular size plastic in the supers? Plastic small cell throughout? Mix and match? Pros, cons, thoughts?

Follow up questions. Best source for wax small cell foundations, plastic, whatever you are using? If wax, since it's in mediums, brood or supers, does it need horizontal wiring?

I apologize for all the questions. Any and all replies are appreciated. Thank you.

(Edited to change packages to nucs.)


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

If you already have small cell bees then they can draw small cell wax foundation, I like wax foundation in the brood nest if you have to cut out queen cells it's easier if you have wax. I don't waste a good queen cell if I want to make a nuc. I also run narrow frames in the brood nest so in a 8 frame box I run 9 narrow frames. In the supers I use regular plastic foundation 8 frames in a box. If your going to run all mediums you'll have to keep tracked of your brood boxes. I use deep brood box and medium honey supers.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

By narrow frames, are you saying about 1 and 1/4 inch frames? What is your beespace?

Aumfc, be aware that when you attempt to transition from foundation to foundationless, if you do, the bees are likely to draw drone comb on the first frame or two you let them draw, especially if you haven't allowed a place for drone comb in your frames with foundation. This is normal, and in the words of Michael Bush The bees are "scratching an itch" that you hadn't let them scratch before. Just move the drone comb to the outside of the box and let them draw more. After 2 or three frames of drone comb, they'll figure out they have enough and start drawing worker comb. If you take the drone comb _out_, then they'll just keep making more every time you put a new frame in.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Go to bush farms it's explained there a lot better than I can.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I only know of one package supplier in what I would call NE AL and if it's who I think it is, I'd bet $100 that they aren't small cell bees. I wouldn't trust that they were, unless they came in a nuc.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Dan, did you build your own frames or sand some down to make them narrow?


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> Dan, did you build your own frames or sand some down to make them narrow?


Made my frames, top bar 15/16 inch wide, side bars 1 1/4 inch on the top 7/8 on the bottom, bottom bar 7/8 inch , I used wax foundation wired with hooks


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

There is no harm in going foundationless. Lots of people think that drone comb is a lot worse than it really is. The bees won't trick themselves into raising more drones than is good for them. Later in the season I find patches of drone comb right in the middle of the brood nest that are full of honey.


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

Crud. First post fail!

I'm getting nucs, not packages.


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## tpope (Mar 1, 2015)

I am not much help on the small cell question. But, welcome to beesource!


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

Dan the bee guy said:


> If you already have small cell bees then they can draw small cell wax foundation, I like wax foundation in the brood nest if you have to cut out queen cells it's easier if you have wax. I don't waste a good queen cell if I want to make a nuc. I also run narrow frames in the brood nest so in a 8 frame box I run 9 narrow frames. In the supers I use regular plastic foundation 8 frames in a box. If your going to run all mediums you'll have to keep tracked of your brood boxes. I use deep brood box and medium honey supers.


Thanks for the reply. What are the reasons for using 5.4 plastic over 4.9 wax in the supers, other than durability and reuse? Since I have all mediums, seems like an advantage to having uniform foundation and frames throughout.

Where do you get your small cell wax foundation and the frames?


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> By narrow frames, are you saying about 1 and 1/4 inch frames? What is your beespace?
> 
> Aumfc, be aware that when you attempt to transition from foundation to foundationless, if you do, the bees are likely to draw drone comb on the first frame or two you let them draw, especially if you haven't allowed a place for drone comb in your frames with foundation. This is normal, and in the words of Michael Bush The bees are "scratching an itch" that you hadn't let them scratch before. Just move the drone comb to the outside of the box and let them draw more. After 2 or three frames of drone comb, they'll figure out they have enough and start drawing worker comb. If you take the drone comb _out_, then they'll just keep making more every time you put a new frame in.


Thank you for the reply. If I try foundation-less it will likely be next year, but I appreciate the advice.


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

Brad Bee said:


> I only know of one package supplier in what I would call NE AL and if it's who I think it is, I'd bet $100 that they aren't small cell bees. I wouldn't trust that they were, unless they came in a nuc.


My mistake. I meant nucs.


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

tpope said:


> I am not much help on the small cell question. But, welcome to beesource!


Thanks!


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

aumfc said:


> Thanks for the reply. What are the reasons for using 5.4 plastic over 4.9 wax in the supers, other than durability and reuse? Since I have all mediums, seems like an advantage to having uniform foundation and frames throughout.
> 
> Where do you get your small cell wax foundation and the frames?


You just have to be carefull with the wax foundation when extracting. Small cell can have a narrow frame when it's used for brood bees will make honey frames wide that's why I use the regular frames and plastic for honey. Brushy Mountain , Mann Lake has the wax. I make the narrow frames.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

>>>I'll be getting my first couple of nucs next month and need some help with foundations. The nucs are coming from a small cell keeper in north-east Alabama.<<<<

I am curious who and where?

>>>> I've decided to run all 8-frame mediums but I'm having trouble deciding on the type of foundation to use.<<<<<<

Dadant, medium brood, vertically wired, 4.9mm foundation. Dadant filters their wax for chemicals where as Kelly doesnt.

>>> I've also had no luck finding small cell keepers in my area.<<<<< 

The Jeffco Beekeepers Assoc''s management is more tolerant of small cell than the SCBA but the SCBA has an activist constantly harassing them.<GGG>

<<<<I plan to start with foundation but may eventually go foundation-less. I'd like to hear what other small cell keepers using all mediums are using in their brood chambers and honey supers.>>>>>>>

Sorry, I run double deeps in the brood and mediums for honey supers. The brood is 4.9 mm foundation and the honey supers are foundationless. My brood boxes are 10 frames of 4.9 mm foundation and one foundationless frame that they draw out as drone comb.

>>>>>> does it need horizontal wiring?<<<<<

I cross wire my deep brood frames but not the medium honey frames.

Are you modifying your brood frames to 1.25" wide?????????????

Have you found Bushfarms.com and Resistant bees.com?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I used 4.9 small cell in several hives over the last 12 years plus I tried some of the Mann Lake PF1xx plastic frames. IMO, the plastic frames are a lot harder to get drawn than wax foundation. The benefits of small cell in the brood nest are primarily based on spring buildup. There is no benefit to having small cell in the supers. The bees in some cases will draw wonky comb if given small cell foundation in the supers.

There are several beekeepers in your area though I don't know of any that use small cell. You might contact Shelby County beekeepers and see if they know of anyone using it. http://shelbybees.org/

Consider checking with http://www.foxhoundbeecompany.com as a second option.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

I have extracted foundationless medium frames that were 2 months old but you have to be carefull and start slllloooowwwwlllllyyyyy.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i am aware of only 2 suppliers advertising small cell nucs on the internet in this part of the country. to the best of my knowledge both of them are using essential oils and/or organic acids to treat for mites. the one in tennessee has had a breeding program in place for a number of years. the one in north alabama was sourcing bees from georgia last year.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

aumfc said:


> What are the reasons for using 5.4 plastic over 4.9 wax in the supers, other than durability and reuse? Since I have all mediums, seems like an advantage to having uniform foundation and frames throughout.


It could be an advantage. I'm also all eight frame mediums. I try to have foundationless in the brood chamber. But I also wind up with a fair amount of small cell plastic in there because I still have it, and some 5.4 slips through because that's what I use to use and because that's what I use in the supers.

I don't treat, and I keep feral bees. The foundationless lets the survivors tell me what size brood cells survivors prefer. It also lets my survivor drones leave a bigger genetic footprint with the ladies at the local DCA's. I use plastic foundation in the supers because it holds up a little better in the uncapper and the extractor.


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

>> I'll be getting my first couple of nucs next month and need some help with foundations. The nucs are coming from a small cell keeper in north-east Alabama.
>>>> I am curious who and where? 

A new-ish supplier in Scottsboro. When I was looking to buy I only found 3 nuc options. This guy seemed like the best option.

>> I've decided to run all 8-frame mediums but I'm having trouble deciding on the type of foundation to use.
>>>> Dadant, medium brood, vertically wired, 4.9mm foundation. Dadant filters their wax for chemicals where as Kelly doesnt.

Thanks. Is this what you use? Link Also, do you have a source for your information on filtering for chemicals at Dadant and Kelley? Not questioning, I just haven't read that and I'm curious how they do it.

>> I've also had no luck finding small cell keepers in my area.
>>>> The Jeffco Beekeepers Assoc''s management is more tolerant of small cell than the SCBA but the SCBA has an activist constantly harassing them.<GGG>

Haven't found anyone in Jeff Co. I contacted SCBA and they provided two different contacts. The first never responded to me. The second, also never contacted me.

>> I plan to start with foundation but may eventually go foundation-less. I'd like to hear what other small cell keepers using all mediums are using in their brood chambers and honey supers.
>>>> Sorry, I run double deeps in the brood and mediums for honey supers. The brood is 4.9 mm foundation and the honey supers are foundationless. My brood boxes are 10 frames of 4.9 mm foundation and one foundationless frame that they draw out as drone comb.

>> does it need horizontal wiring?
>>>> I cross wire my deep brood frames but not the medium honey frames.

Ok, thanks. That's tells me what I need to know.

>>>> Are you modifying your brood frames to 1.25" wide?????????????

Never knew anything about this. Read some at Bush Farms site. Not sure I will do this to start with. There's just so much else going on. I'll try to find out more about it. Is this what you do?

>>>> Have you found Bushfarms.com and Resistant bees.com?

Yes but I haven't read them all extensively. There's a lot to learn.


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> I used 4.9 small cell in several hives over the last 12 years plus I tried some of the Mann Lake PF1xx plastic frames. IMO, the plastic frames are a lot harder to get drawn than wax foundation. The benefits of small cell in the brood nest are primarily based on spring buildup. There is no benefit to having small cell in the supers. The bees in some cases will draw wonky comb if given small cell foundation in the supers.
> 
> There are several beekeepers in your area though I don't know of any that use small cell. You might contact Shelby County beekeepers and see if they know of anyone using it. http://shelbybees.org/
> 
> Consider checking with http://www.foxhoundbeecompany.com as a second option.


Thanks. I have tried but the people I was told about in Shelby never got back to me. I've talked to Adam a few times, as well.

It's not really about a small cell benefit in the supers so much as it's about using uniform equipment since I'll have all mediums. Mostly I'm trying to figure out if there's a big disadvantage to using something different in the supers. Especially now that I will only have 2 hives. If I use all the same frames and foundation I can get cheaper prices than if I do half and half.


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

squarepeg said:


> i am aware of only 2 suppliers advertising small cell nucs on the internet in this part of the country. to the best of my knowledge both of them are using essential oils and/or organic acids to treat for mites. the one in tennessee has had a breeding program in place for a number of years. the one in north alabama was sourcing bees from georgia last year.


My guy sounds like the one you mention in AL. His bees came from Georgia and he does treat with acid. When I found him, his ad said chemical free and I thought this excluded oxalic but I guess not. In any case, he was the only one with small cells that I found and it sounded good to me. He has also been available and open to conversation. He mills his own wax and runs deeps and mediums.


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

Riverderwent said:


> It could be an advantage. I'm also all eight frame mediums. I try to have foundationless in the brood chamber. But I also wind up with a fair amount of small cell plastic in there because I still have it, and some 5.4 slips through because that's what I use to use and because that's what I use in the supers.
> 
> I don't treat, and I keep feral bees. The foundationless lets the survivors tell me what size brood cells survivors prefer. It also lets my survivor drones leave a bigger genetic footprint with the ladies at the local DCA's. I use plastic foundation in the supers because it holds up a little better in the uncapper and the extractor.


Thank you for the reply. I do like the idea of foundationless but local folks have advised against it to start out due to learning curve. That makes sense to me and I figure I can move to it fairly easy next year if I want to.

Do you use an excluder? Do you see any disadvantages to having plastic up top? I assume you use two different frame types as well? What brand foundation are you using up top and what type of frames? In the brood, I assume you are using a wedge frame?

I'm guessing that for you the benefit of plastic for extracting outweighs the benefit of having uniform frames and foundation throughout?

Thanks again.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

>>>>>>>>>Thanks. Is this what you use? Link <<<<<<<<<<<<

That is what I use in the brood nest but remember it is for deep hive bodies not mediums. They also sell it for medium hive bodies. Dee Lusby said the Prez pf Dadant wrote her a letter describing how they filter the wax. Here's the medium size. Double check me on this.
https://www.dadant.com/catalog/f353503sc-4-9mm-small-cell-longhook-5-5-8-wired-foundation

Strongly suggest you look into shaving your brood frames down to 1.25" wide if you are going to the bother of going small cell.

Not surprised SCBA didn't return your call. 

CABA is one of the better organizations. They are located in Wetumpka. They put both large call and small cell into their bee school and let the individual decide which. Others try to suppress small cell.


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

ToeOfDog said:


> >>>>>>>>>Thanks. Is this what you use? Link <<<<<<<<<<<<
> 
> That is what I use in the brood nest but remember it is for deep hive bodies not mediums. They also sell it for medium hive bodies. Dee Lusby said the Prez pf Dadant wrote her a letter describing how they filter the wax. Here's the medium size. Double check me on this.
> https://www.dadant.com/catalog/f353503sc-4-9mm-small-cell-longhook-5-5-8-wired-foundation
> ...


Thanks. It's not any extra effort for me to do small cell right now since the bees are coming to me that way. Shaving all the frames would be and I don't have any of the tools I assume I'd need to do it. Also, with narrow frames, isn't the risk of rolling the queen higher when inspecting since there is less space in there?


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

aumfc said:


> Do you use an excluder?


Yes.



> Do you see any disadvantages to having plastic up top?


It would be nice to have the same across the hive.



> I assume you use two different frame types as well? What brand foundation are you using up top and what type of frames? In the brood, I assume you are using a wedge frame?


Mannlake wood and plastic foundation. Kelley foundationless 'cause nobody else makes it with the triangle shape.



> I'm guessing that for you the benefit of plastic for extracting outweighs the benefit of having uniform frames and foundation throughout?


Yep.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Risk of rolling the queen.... not really.(I don't think. I don't have bees yet either) The beespace should be the same even with narrower frames.

Also, with regard to starting with foundation and switching to foundationless later. The same famous source I quoted earlier seems to think that beginning with foundationless is easier than developing habits with foundation and then having to unlearn those habits when you switch.

I'm starting foundationless this spring. I'll tell you if I have problems.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

No, the bee space is smaller when you shave the shoulders of the frames. Capped worker brood comb is 1 inch thick no matter if it is in a frame 1.25 center to center or 1.50 center to center. The bees will extend cells of honey, but brood is not extended. You will need to be very careful or you can roll a queen easily.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Ok, so the goal is to make the beespace smaller than is standard?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The goal with small cell and narrow frames is to speed up spring buildup. There are several old threads about using narrow frames.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?249192


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> Ok, so the goal is to make the beespace smaller than is standard?


Yes, warmer broodnest is the result, and if you use a follower board and work sideways after pulling this you will not roll a queen even as a beginner. Just leave one frame off.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

double post


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> The goal with small cell and narrow frames is to speed up spring buildup. There are several old threads about using narrow frames.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?249192


Good reading. I like the idea of narrow frames, I simply lack the equipment, skill, and time required to modify the frames and make it happen.

I understand starting out practicing the method you eventually want to use long-term may be ideal, but my goal this year is to have my bees survive given my lack of the above.  If modifications to methods are worth it, I don't mind putting in the extra work in the future to make them happen once I have more practical experience.

I am starting out running all 8-frame mediums, and I am getting nucs of small cell bees. I figure I'm already a little ahead of the curve on my long-term keeping goals.

If I'm not going with narrow frames or foundation-less this year, sounds like my best bet is SC wax from Dadant, or else purchase SC wax foundation milled by the guy supplying the bees. The locally milled SC foundation will be what's in the 2 5-frame nucs I'm getting from him anyway, so maybe that's the way to go. It's just more expensive than the Dadant foundation, which is already more expensive than the Kelley SC wax foundation. Therefore, if I'm going to be spending more money, I want to make sure it's worthwhile.

For the supers, any other suggestions on whether I should go with standard plastic, or just keep things uniform and use the same SC I'll use in the brood boxes?

Thanks again everyone.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Are your nucs coming on medium frames? Most sellers sell deep nucs. What's your plan for housing them in your boxes?


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> Are your nucs coming on medium frames? Most sellers sell deep nucs. What's your plan for housing them in your boxes?


Hi, yes, they are coming on medium frames. I asked for them specifically back in January to make sure he had time to make them that way for me. He was open to it from the beginning. You are right though. Other sellers I spoke with weren't as enthusiastic about making medium nucs.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

ToeOfDog said:


> Dadant filters their wax for chemicals where as Kelly doesnt.


I'm really curious what kind of filter can remove chemicals from wax...


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

grozzie2 said:


> I'm really curious what kind of filter can remove chemicals from wax...


Yeah, me too. I looked for the letter referenced above but haven't been able to locate it online.


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

In looking for the letter about filtering chemicals out of wax, I came across the small cell silicone matrices on the Resistant Bees website. Anyone have these or have any experience with them? https://resistantbees.com/blog/?page_id=3105


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

aumfc said:


> In looking for the letter about filtering chemicals out of wax, I came across the small cell silicone matrices on the Resistant Bees website. Anyone have these or have any experience with them? https://resistantbees.com/blog/?page_id=3105


I use them with my press.
http://www.vivabiene.de/g20-Arbeitsweise-SiWolKe.html

I have bees regressed on small cells. The AMM build very good small cell combs, the carnis build wonky. The carnis are bred for honey production. Cell diameter and direction is same size with this matrices.
The difference of this matrices is that you have only the cell bottom not the sides stamped out. 

I have my own wax. I´m not cooking the wax. 70°C is the highest temperature I do.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

small cell silicone matrices 

Talk to someone who is actually using foundation made with these before you buy in! Advertorials dont count Wax, as cast, is very brittle and this process uses much more wax than a mechanically rolled sheet.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I´m not selling them. I use them. 

The wax is more brittle because there is no paraffin oil in it. Work with it in a warm room.
The moment the foundations are in the hive , no problem. Yes you need more wax.

I have never seen a rolled sheet with same direction length of cell size.


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

SiWolKe said:


> I use them with my press.
> http://www.vivabiene.de/g20-Arbeitsweise-SiWolKe.html
> 
> I have bees regressed on small cells. The AMM build very good small cell combs, the carnis build wonky. The carnis are bred for honey production. Cell diameter and direction is same size with this matrices.
> ...


Very cool. Do you know if there are any instructional videos or videos showing the process of using these with a press like yours?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

There are a few articles in German that describe methods to remove chemical contaminants from wax. Going on memory, they use a flocculant followed by forcing the wax through a ceramic filter. Please don't take this as definitive, there could be more methods that work or this could be outdated information.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

>>>>>>Good reading. I like the idea of narrow frames, I simply lack the equipment, skill, and time required to modify the frames and make it happen.<<<<<<<

I have a table saw. Do you have the 3 hours per 100 it takes to modify them?


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

ToeOfDog said:


> >>>>>>Good reading. I like the idea of narrow frames, I simply lack the equipment, skill, and time required to modify the frames and make it happen.<<<<<<<
> 
> I have a table saw. Do you have the 3 hours per 100 it takes to modify them?


I'd like to learn as much as I can from experienced folks. If I can learn how to do it reliably, and how to work the boxes correctly, that would certainly help.

Doing that would mean I'd have different frames in my brood boxes than my supers, right? That would eliminate some of the advantages of going with all mediums, but not the main advantage, I guess.

The other potential drawback, what about the 10 full frames I'll be getting in my nucs? They won't be 1.25". I guess I could have one brood box normal width and the other 2 filled with narrow frames.

I'm definitely open to learning and investigating further. Time is ticking and bees will be here soon, so I need to figure something out.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

If you don't have the time or the skill to do narrow f just go with the regular frame then you won't have the headache .


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

aumfc said:


> Doing that would mean I'd have different frames in my brood boxes than my supers, right?


 No. You would just space the frames farther apart in the supers. They wouldn't touch each other. My understanding is that it's helpful to do this anyway since bees will draw honeycomb wider than brood comb. I'm new too, so don't take my word for it but I'm planning on spacing frames in the supers at 1.5 inches.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> No. You would just space the frames farther apart in the supers. They wouldn't touch each other. My understanding is that it's helpful to do this anyway since bees will draw honeycomb wider than brood comb. I'm new too, so don't take my word for it but I'm planning on spacing frames in the supers at 1.5 inches.





> Very cool. Do you know if there are any instructional videos or videos showing the process of using these with a press like yours?


It´s very easy to do the foundations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2W9-IloHZk
I´m selling the black parts of the combs to a metalworker company. They do a special finish. Get as much money as with honey and have no work cleaning it.

The clean parts of comb I´m just melting and cool down later to separate the cocons and debris. This I scrape away. Then I melt again and press foundations like in the video.

The press is homemade by a friend, the matrices purchased. A co-worker does the 5.1, I´m doing 4.9.

We do it for free for all who want to go tf and need foundations of their own wax. They send the wax to us and pay for the shipping, sometimes donate money to us.
The presses are expensive, but we had a wax scandal with companies mixing chinese wax into the organic wax people send them and the combs broke with the warm interior of he beehives.

My small tf group and those who want to change to tf will try to have natural comb in the broodnest area with narrow spacing and we will use foundations 4.9-5.1 in places without brood or supers. More space there.

So far I used narrow space 33mm and 4.9 in all areas and it was no problem. But I want to improve to a more natural arrangement giving the bees more freedom to decide.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

SiWolKe said:


> Yes, warmer broodnest is the result


I have herd this a few times, does any one have a link to a scientific study that small cell bees keep their nest warmer then normal cell bees?


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> No. You would just space the frames farther apart in the supers. They wouldn't touch each other. My understanding is that it's helpful to do this anyway since bees will draw honeycomb wider than brood comb. I'm new too, so don't take my word for it but I'm planning on spacing frames in the supers at 1.5 inches.


Thanks. Is anyone using the narrow frames in the honey supers?


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

msl said:


> I have herd this a few times, does any one have a link to a scientific study that small cell bees keep their nest warmer then normal cell bees?


I don't think the brood nest is "warmer" there are more cells per square inch so you need fewer bees to cover the brood that equals faster growth of the population.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

aumfc said:


> Thanks. Is anyone using the narrow frames in the honey supers?


There is no reason you can't use the narrow frames just start them useing all your frames to get them drawn out. Sometimes they will make a honey frame so wide it will go into the space of the frame next to it. Once the frames are drawn you can remove a frame then space the rest.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Narrow frames in the supers is counter productive. You want the comb wider as it's easier to uncap and yields more per frame.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Dan the bee guy said:


> I don't think the brood nest is "warmer" there are more cells per square inch so you need fewer bees to cover the brood that equals faster growth of the population.


I have hurd that as well but can't find anything to back that up either.. ie a study saying a small cell bee is bigger compared to its cell size vs a normal cell bee.
The fallacy of that argument would seem to be assuming large and small cell bees have the same adult size. Doesn't smaller cells means smaller bees? are they are smaller by the same factor the cell is smaller, so then you need the same ratio of bees to cover brood... yes there is more brood per square inch, but there are also more bees per square inch.

Now it could be that BTU output to body size isn't linear, or it could be overwintering clusters are based on biomass not numbers and small cell bees over winter with more individuals so in spring they can cover more brood cells... but I haven't been able to find anything to that effect.


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

JRG13 said:


> Narrow frames in the supers is counter productive. You want the comb wider as it's easier to uncap and yields more per frame.


Thanks. I don't mean narrowly spaced. I'm talking about using frames in the super that have been narrowed in order to be spaced more tightly in the brood boxes.

The reason for this would be to only have to deal with one frame that could be used anywhere in the hive.

I'd like to chat with someone running small cell in all 8-frame mediums.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

msl said:


> I have hurd that as well but can't find anything to back that up either.. ie a study saying a small cell bee is bigger compared to its cell size vs a normal cell bee.
> The fallacy of that argument would see to be assuming large and small cell bees have the same adult size. Doesn't smaller cells means smaller bees? are they are smaller by the same factor the cell is smaller, so then you need the same ratio of bees to cover brood... yes there is more brood per square inch, but there are also more bees per square inch.
> 
> Now it could be that BTU output to body size isn't linear, or it could be overwintering clusters are based on biomass not numbers and small cell bees over winter with more individuals so in spring they can cover more brood... but I haven't been able to find anything to that effect.


It is hard to sift out the bs so far I haven't been able to do it on the small cell thing. But I do have hives on both but not enough to tell a differance.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Thanks. Is anyone using the narrow frames in the honey supers?

I do. If they are obviously using it to store honey, I space them 7 to an 8 frame box once they are drawn. The narrow frames are slightly easier to uncap as the end bars are skinnier so you can cut 1/16" deeper on each side.


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## aumfc (Feb 2, 2017)

Michael Bush said:


> >Thanks. Is anyone using the narrow frames in the honey supers?
> 
> I do. If they are obviously using it to store honey, I space them 7 to an 8 frame box once they are drawn. The narrow frames are slightly easier to uncap as the end bars are skinnier so you can cut 1/16" deeper on each side.


Thank you. Do you make your own narrow frames from scratch or trim available frames down?

Do you also have 9 frames to an 8 frame brood box? Encounter any issues when working within that tighter space than you would with only 8 frames? Thank you for any experience you can share.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

msl said:


> I have hurd that as well but can't find anything to back that up either.. ie a study saying a small cell bee is bigger compared to its cell size vs a normal cell bee.
> The fallacy of that argument would seem to be assuming large and small cell bees have the same adult size. Doesn't smaller cells means smaller bees? are they are smaller by the same factor the cell is smaller, so then you need the same ratio of bees to cover brood... yes there is more brood per square inch, but there are also more bees per square inch.
> 
> Now it could be that BTU output to body size isn't linear, or it could be overwintering clusters are based on biomass not numbers and small cell bees over winter with more individuals so in spring they can cover more brood cells... but I haven't been able to find anything to that effect.


I didn't think brood was usually reared in winter. They aren't talking about warmer in winter, just easier to keep brood at appropriate Temps during a rearing season?

That said, I'm pretty sure this is all conjecture without evidence. The only evidence I've seen to support narrow frames comes from Mr. Bush's website where he has a picture of some cross-comb that was spaced at 1.25 inches on center. I have not seen any data with a sufficiently large sample size for good confidence in that measurement. 

I do like the idea of an extra frame per brood box though...


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Dan the bee guy said:


> I don't think the brood nest is "warmer" there are more cells per square inch so you need fewer bees to cover the brood that equals faster growth of the population.


That´s what I meant, thanks, dan, to make it clear.
If you let the bees decide they build 30-32 bee space between the combs in worker brood area without frames, or even more narrow. David Heaf has some nice picts on his side. So why arguing?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Thank you. Do you make your own narrow frames from scratch or trim available frames down?

Yes. I also pay people to make them for me when I can find them. I hope to buy enough to offer them for sale one of these days soon. The custom made ones are nice since the top bar is thinner as well.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

aumfc said:


> Doing that would mean I'd have different frames in my brood boxes than my supers, right? That would eliminate some of the advantages of going with all mediums, but not the main advantage, I guess.
> 
> The other potential drawback, what about the 10 full frames I'll be getting in my nucs? They won't be 1.25". I guess I could have one brood box normal width and the other 2 filled with narrow frames.


I try to standardize as much as possible.

My brood frames are 1.25" wide deeps and the supers are 1.375" wide mediums. The brood is on 4.9mm foundation and the supers are foundationless. The bees will often draw the frames in the honey supers with larger cells than they will the brood box. When given foundationless brood frames the same bees will draw small cells so they are drawing larger cells just because it is the honey super. An advantage of two different frame sizes is that brood frames are deeps and mediums are honey. No need to measure cell size to see if a frame belongs in the brood box. 

What to do with the 10 frames that come with the nucs if they aren't 1.25"? 1) take a hand plane and shave them down. Or 2) trash them. If you trash them just slowly rotate them out of the brood nest.


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