# Trying to prep them for winter....



## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

I should add that the bottom box has about 8 frames drawn out and the top box has about 3 frames. No super. 

Any thoughts how to configure them for winter with this few of frames?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Kurt S said:


> I should add that the bottom box has about 8 frames drawn out and the top box has about 3 frames. No super.
> 
> Any thoughts how to configure them for winter with this few of frames?


If I were you, I'd get all but one of the 11 frames into one deep, feed them w/ sugar syrup until they wouldn't take anymore and then wrap them w/ 5 or 10 lbs. of granulated sugar on a couple of sheets of newspaper on top of the frames. You should have treated them w/ you prefered mite treatment, but it may not be too late.

Good luck.


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## Dale Hodges (Jul 13, 2007)

Areyou seeing any pollen in the frames? Bees will starve on just syrup. I'm having a pollen shortage this year, been feeding pollen since spring.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

This time of year colonies become very protective of their stores and reserves for winter. Reducing the entrance or placing a robber screen can't hurt.
Entrance feeders can lead to robbing from leakage and the fact that they are close to the entrance and accessible from the entrance area.
Not knowing how others did in your area or what your flows have been like, whether they should have done better or not is hard to say.
Getting them to draw comb in late summer and fall is not always easy. They really need to have extra storage space before they expend the energy on comb production.
I would switch to a hive top feeder or an empty box with jars on the top bars.
I would feed them 1:1 to entend the brood rearing and see if you can get them to draw anything.
You will need to get stores into them before winter weather sets in.
When your killing frost ends the season, make an evaluation as to what they have and how to set them up for winter.
They can survive the winter as long as they have enough population and stores, or feed they can keep contact with.
http://www.mountaincampfarm.com/wst_page5.php


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I don't typically see them drawing comb very quickly when feeding 2:1. They seem to do a better job with 1:1 for me...

I know "everyone" seems to recommend 2:1 for the fall but I almost always feed 1:1. There are a few exceptions like when I don't want to stimulate nucs any further and want them to quickly cap the comb and start preparing for winter.

That's just the way I do it.


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

Thanks guys!

I'll switch to 1:1.

Yes, they have some pollen. I'm not quite sure how much is 'enough' though. 

I was reading about MC's winter feeding technique on the other post and I like the concept. It will give them some food right over them and since they probably will end up in one deep, that's a good thing. 
Do you feed them cane or beet sugar and does it matter? (I imagine it doesn't.)
MC, do you put in the whole sugar bag like in the one pic or do you just put a pile of sugar on paper like in the other pic?
What pollen substitute are you using? They sure didn't like FeedBee. I don't recall hearing others feeding pollen thru the winter. Is it required?
How often do you have to refill the syrup jars? You don't worry about opening the top in the middle of winter to refill them?

Sorry for all the questions.
Thanks! I really appreciate the help!


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I feed them cane sugar. Beet sugar can have some impurities that can cause some problems with confinement.
What I do is place the sugar on paper. If I have extra bags I throw them on top, for storage. They still absorb moisture and they will harden up. When they harden up, you can just put the bag in and cut it open when adding more feed to a hive. Make sure that they can contact the feed from the top bars. You don't want them having to climb up a bag of sugar to get to the opening to feed during really cold weather.
With the sugar on paper sitting on the top bars they can access the feed from underneath or the sides. When the sugar hardens, they create a dome of sugar that they cluster and feed under. They tunnel through to the top, as can be seen in a number of pictures.
I get the generic pollen sub from Better Bee. Not sure who's it is. 
I add pollen sub when I start my stimulative feeding toward the end of February. I pour it on top of the sugar and they work it well.
I keep the syrup jars filled through about early to mid December. It really depends on the colony's consumption and temperatures. They will work the jars on sunny days with temps in the mid 20's and warmer. The syrup jars will not freeze till temps are in the single numbers. I place the jar feeders back on in the later part of February when the really cold weather has broken and temps are in the 20's / 30's during the day.
They will work both the sugar and feeders at the same time. So, if you are looking to have them put stores away, more bees can work a pile of sugar, than the jars. Just mist the sugar to get it started. Sprinkle some of the sugar water on the pile, paper and top bars when you place the jar feeders. Let's them know it's all food and sweet.
I open the hives up during the day with temps in the teens and warmer. I just do a quick look to see that they have stores and feed to work. You will get a feel for how fast they are using stores.
Feed and stores consumption will greatly increase in the later part of winter and early spring as they start rearing brood again. Once you start feeding them light syrup and pollen sub, make sure that you keep them supplied well into the start of foraging weather, or they can starve.
Also, a felt paper wrap does make a big difference with wind protection and solar gain. The extra solar gain in late winter can mean the difference between a tight cluster or getting at stores.
Looking at your monthly average temps: http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USMI0028?from=search
And the HDD information: http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/documentlibrary/hcs/hcs.html
You have a good chance of getting them through till spring.


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

Thanks! 
That's the details I was looking for!


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

MountainCamp said:


> I feed them cane sugar. Beet sugar can have some impurities that can cause some problems with confinement.


Wow, this is the first time I've heard that. I've been feeding quite a bit of Beet Sugar syrup to the bees .... I was under the impression there was no difference. Hope I haven't messed up.

Would you mind elaborating a bit.... "impurities" ? .."problems with confinement" ?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Mike, I will have to find the reference. I may have my wire crossed.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Mike, Refined Beet Sugar is NOT a problem. It is semi-refined Beet Sugar that is the problem. Sorry,

"Refined beet and cane sugar are pure sucrose and, of course, are safe and nutritionally equivalent. Unrefined sugars have poisoned bees. The toxic factors in molasses and in brown sugars have not been identified. Bailey (1966) found that semi-refined cane sugar was harmless but that semi-refined beet sugar decreased the life of bees. So, impurities in his unrefined beet sugar must be toxic. Crude beet sugar may be toxic because of pectins or galactosides in it (Barker, 1976a)."


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

Good catch, MC. And, I'll second his findings. After much personal research, white granulated sugar appears to be white granulated sugar, whether it comes from sugar beets or sugar cane. And, the only difference seems to be a difference in opinion... which seems to come from each of the respective grower's unions. What it boils down to is: Sucrose is sucrose is white table sugar.

But, brown sugar, molasses, Sugar in the Raw and other unrefined sugars can cause dysentary in honey bees. (And the 3% corn starch in powdered donut sugar can cause constipation, when used as feed, but that's another thread.)

-----

I'm going to back up a little bit here.

I saw a couple posts back, what appeared to be the recommendation to open hives when it's very cold (middle of winter) to feed sugar syrup.

I don't believe that this is a good idea at all, for two reasons.

First, opening a hive when it's cold can chill any brood that may be being raised. Granted, since brood rearing stops around 50-degrees F., this *may* only be a danger in the late Fall and early Spring when the queen is laying and you're trying to build up brood levels. Regardless, if the bees in the outer edges of the cluster cool off much past 40-degrees, they could die, thereby reducing the total number of bodies warming the queen and the rest of the cluster. If this occurs too many times, it seems to me that you've weakened the hive unnecessarily.

Secondly, do you remember the old-timey ice boxes? The way they worked was, you put a block of ice in the TOP compartment, and the cold air flowed downward, keeping your food cold. Now, in terms of the hive, instead of a block of ice, the container of syrup atop your frames is trying to cool down and freeze your colony. And why bother feeding in the middle of winter? I mean, if your bees become cooler than 42-degrees, they can't move to take the syrup anyways. One of two things will happen here: 1) They can't move, can't take the syrup away, and the syrup freezes, hence your bees will freeze. or 2) Out of survival, your bees will try to keep the container of syrup warm (or rather, above freezing), so it doesn't wind up killing them. This, of course, means that they're using up a lot more energy and a lot more food that they've stored to stay warm, putting them at increased risk of starvation come March.

What I plan on doing is feeding heavy 2:1 syrup until they either won't take any more, or until the daytime high temperatures don't get above 50-degrees, whichever occurs first.

And, provided that the colonies aren't pollen bare or "pollen bound" (meaning, so much pollen that the queen has no room to lay), the bees know how much pollen they'll need to winter on. But come spring (February), I'll be feeding 1:1 syrup and pollen to stimulate (trick) them into brood rearing early.

Is my thinking wrong here? Or am I making sense?

I'd appreciate comments.
BDDS


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

My "set up" is not something that I am going to try this year, it has been the way I have run my hives for the last 7 years or so. I moved to this setup over another few years of trial and error.
Queens shut down in the fall depending on a number of input, mostly having to do with resources coming into the hive. She will start rearing brood again sometime in January / February here, while temps are not only below 50F, they can be below 0F. The brood will at first cover only a small area and this will increase as the temperature moderates and they can cover a larger area, and resources start coming into the hive. 
I feed light syrup in the fall through early / mid December. Temps here are on average are 15F/35F in December. I feed light syrup to extend brood rearing as long as possible to have young bees for winter. I start stimulative feed toward the end of February as I do splits toward the end of April.
If I stopped feeding when temps dropped below 50F on average feeding would end in October and would not start up again until sometime in April / May.
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/12473?from=36hr_bottomnav_undeclared
Popping the cover with the empty box on top does not disturb the cluster or brood nest. It is really not much different than a hive set up with top ventilation.
I have over the years found that they will use feeder jars with daytime temps in the mid 20's or warmer on sunny days. They will and can cluster up under and on the granular sugar at whatever temps they have to. 
As far as the ice box, it actually is working the other way, more like your oven and stove top. The cluster is generating heat, from eating stores or the feed, this heat rises and warms the jars or granular sugar, or anything situated above them. They do not intentionally or knowingly heat the jars or sugar.
I have found that my setup has actually almost eliminated my loses from starvation or condensation.
Good luck with your winter set up and techniques.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Here are some pictures of the bees wintering using the system I am speaking of: http://www.mountaincampfarm.com/wst_page5.php


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## markonsite (Dec 14, 2006)

*Feeding*

MC, It looks like you are not using any inner covers for the winter. Is this correct? If so, do you wedge open the migratory cover for ventilation or just set it on the top box? Thanks for the help!

Mark


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

I had great success using Mountaincamp's wintering methods last winter. I wintered 7 hives with no losses, wrapping the hives with Betterbee's black plastic hivewrap, and using an empty medium box for feeding jars of syrup and granulated sugar on paper. It works great! Once the cluster moves up into the top box , you can place the feed right near them, or over them. All the clusters tended to prefer the hang out in the south/southwest sides of the boxes, due to the warmth from the solar gain from the black plastic wrap. I left an upper hole in the plastic wrap directly over a 3/4" hole in the upper box,...which the bees would use for cleansing flights on warmer days.

Thanks again, Mountaincamp, for sharing your methods with us,....


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I have telescoping covers with and without inner covers. Also have migratory covers as well.
The inner cover when used is on top of the empty box so that the jars / paper and sugar sit right on the top bars.
The boxes for the most part are simply rough cut unfinished pine. They are not air tight and breath. Some of the boxes are old deep boxes with entrance holes.
The granular sugar plays a significant role in moisture / condensate control.
Granular sugar acts like a desiccant and absorbs moisture from the air. The sugar over the cluster also prevents any condensate that freezes and thaws from falling back on to the cluster from up top.
The paper / sugar also force the warm moist to the inside walls of the boxes. Condensate that freezes on the inside walls of the boxes provide the bees with water during their confinement.
Condensate / moisture in a hive during the winter is not always a problem or bad. The cluster needs water to dilute stores to make use of it.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

MountainCamp said:


> Mike, Refined Beet Sugar is NOT a problem. It is semi-refined Beet Sugar that is the problem. Sorry,
> 
> "Refined beet and cane sugar are pure sucrose and, of course, are safe and nutritionally equivalent. Unrefined sugars have poisoned bees. The toxic factors in molasses and in brown sugars have not been identified. Bailey (1966) found that semi-refined cane sugar was harmless but that semi-refined beet sugar decreased the life of bees. So, impurities in his unrefined beet sugar must be toxic. Crude beet sugar may be toxic because of pectins or galactosides in it (Barker, 1976a)."


Thanks MC. You had me a little worried there for a minute.


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

OK, so I put the feeder on the top bars and reduced the entrance (using the wider slot).
A large drop in syrup consumption, which confirms there were robbers. And as further evidence, I even saw a worker with a paint spot on her, surely not one of mine!

The bees are more gentle and the entrance activity is down to a more expected level. 
I don't have a lot of wax laying around, but I did melt it down and paint one of the plastic frames. They started pulling it out immediately. 

MC,
How much ventilation are you giving them in the winter? I have a screened bottom and plan to install the inspection board during the winter and turn the entrance reducer to the smaller hole. And the inner cover has a ventilation / exit hole.

> I get the generic pollen sub from Better Bee.
I haven't fed pollen before. I know you can do it as pollen patties, but it looks like you're doing as a liquid mix out of a feeder?

Thanks!!


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I don't really make an effort to do anything special for ventilation. The top boxes are mostly rought cut lumber, they are not the tightest joints, and the "hive" in general breaths. Hives / boxes are not air tight.
The problem with moisture / condensate in winter is when it collects and falls on top the cluster. The colony / cluster needs water in winter to dilute it's honey for consumption or use feed provided. So, not all moisture and condensate is bad. Placing the granular sugar on the paper/ top bars pushes the warm moist air toward the inside walls of the boxes and then up toward the top covers. Any condensate that forms on the inner box sides and freezes or runs down, does not fall on the cluster and can be used by them. Any condensate that forms or freezes on the covers will fall onto the sugar where it is absorbed.

I have solid bottom board hives and screen bottom board hives, I leave them open year round. They will keep the queen laying higher in spring if left open.

I feed pollen sub, basically 3 ways: I open feed from a pan when they can fly, I put it right onto the sugar and paper in the hive, or I mix a little into some of the syrup jars, kind of like a protein shake. All 3 ways work fine depending on the time of year and the colony needs.


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