# Bee Informed National Survey



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Please go to http://beeinformed.org/participate/ and take the survey. It can be pretty involved depending on your specific case, but do what you can.

I just took the survey and am looking at some of the results from last year. Colony losses between different management styles (no non-bee derived products, natural only, prefer natural, use anything, other) were not statistically significant. In fact, the the range was between 31-36% with the first option rating at about 33%.

The difference between migratory and non-migratory was 30%, 34% respectively.

http://beeinformed.org/results/

We see a lot of numbers in a lot of different directions, but the averages are not statistically different. I mentioned previously the differences between treating and non treating for varroa specifically were less than ten percent, I'm looking at the graph now and losses with no varroa treatment were 37% and treated were 29%, so only 8% difference. It's clear from the numbers that the ones who treated are more often commercial beekeepers, averaging 150 colonies, and the ones who didn't treat were less so, averaging 20 colonies.

According to the stats, powdered sugar was NOT helpful, actually increasing losses compared to whatever else was done.

Coumaphos only ~2.5% better than doing nothing.

Formic Acid, 6% better than nothing.

Fluvalinate, 2% better than nothing.

Miscellaneous herbal products, 3% better than nothing.

Small Cell, 1% worse than nothing on average, but varying widely. Using small cell in all colonies 2% better than in no colonies, but still widely varying. Shows a small bad correlation for going half way as it were.

SSB 2% better than nothing.

Here's an interesting one, drone removal, using it 1% worse than not using it. Dodged a bullet there.

Terramycin and Tylosin, 2% better than nothing.

Fumagillin and Nosevet, wash.


Again, I'm not seeing anything all the useful in treating to begin with. Most of these numbers say that the treatment does not do anything statistically significant. The best looking product is Formic Acid, but it is only correlated with increased survival by 6%. It's hard for me to see that a 6% increase justifies the cost and time it takes to treat. One thing treating does do is make for more consistent results.

On the other hand, many of us have experienced the 'going cold turkey' paradigm, both personally and vicariously. It must be noted that there is a big difference between going cold turkey and being cold turkey. So it may be that these numbers are more due to avoided losses from the switching process than differences in management. It's kind of like a tax on not changing.

Just a few thoughts. 

Take the survey, get your information in there for this year's results. This information is helpful for all beekeepers.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Another note, winter losses are those that occur between October 1 and April 1.

Also sugar seems to be grouped among treatments.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Sol,

I haven't looked at the results. But, I'm struggling to understand what you have reported. Treatment improves survival by 8%. But, the most effective treatment only improves survival by 6%? Is the 8% due to more than one type of treatment?

I'm kind of leery of gleaning specifics from these types of surveys. They can give an overall view of things. But, do you think the data is good enough to make generalizations? I don't. There is no control over who enters data. I find very few beekeepers know what is really going on in their hives and make assumptions without having any data to back it up.

Tom


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

TWall said:


> Is the 8% due to more than one type of treatment?


If I were to venture a guess, that would be it.




TWall said:


> But, do you think the data is good enough to make generalizations?


Yes. That's what data is for. With a sample size of thousands, it is a good representative (though not exhaustive) result.




TWall said:


> I find very few beekeepers know what is really going on in their hives and make assumptions without having any data to back it up.


If you had looked at the data, you would have seen that such an action was not required. That's the beauty of science (though this is not a scientific study by any stretch.) You can enter in the inputs and the results and lots of times you can back out intermediate steps which show you something you would not have guessed. In this case, the data shows how effective (or ineffective) individual treatments actually are as well as other variables.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Solomon Parker said:


> That's the beauty of science (though this is not a scientific study by any stretch.) You can enter in the inputs and the results and lots of times you can back out intermediate steps which show you something you would not have guessed. In this case, the data shows how effective (or ineffective) individual treatments actually are as well as other variables.


Well, the beauty of science is that is follows well established protocols. You may then generate repeatable results that can drive your decision making.

When I was in graduate school I often heard the comment "garbage in, garbage out." You can't take a non-scientific study and make scientific interpolations from it, that just isn't science.

Tom


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Well, so, then, have you taken the survey yet?


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I hope my whopping 5 hives did not skew the numbers.:lpf:


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Did I miss it? Selecting for resistant strains.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

You mean as an option in the survey? I don't think that was an option, and I believe the survey is closed, but it will open again next spring.

It appears that since I posted the numbers above, some new data came in. So it seems that the best treatment increased survival by 10%. Still doesn't seem worth it to be considering my losses were 9% last winter.

I bumped the thread because I kept wanting to point to it but could never find it when I needed it. I'll try to post the link when the survey comes around next year as well.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Very very interesting that there was no significant difference between southern beekeepers who prepared hives for winter versus those who didn't.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If treated hives had 29 losses per hundred and non treated had 37 then the losses were at least 25% greater on the non treated. You also indicate that later data increases this difference.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The denominator is not the number of losses, but the total number of hives, in this case 100.

To make this real for me, using some numbers from the survey, if I were to treat, I would lose 25*.27 = 6 hives. If I didn't treat, I would lose .37*25 = 9 hives. Going from 6 to 9 is a 50% increase in losses, but it's only a 12% decrease in survival. Comparing losses in percent is misleading. You have to compare both to the total number of hives.

If you lose 1 hive one year, and then 2 hives the next year, you have a 100% increase in losses, but if you have 100 hives, you've lost only 2% which by any reasonable measure is more than acceptable.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I understand how it works, no problem. Whether you state a change as a percentage of the whole or as a percentage of the remainder makes a big difference in the common perception of it. What were the final figures anyway.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Here are most of them.

Sucrocide 10%
Fluvalinate 3%
Apiguard 10%
Cuomophos 3%
Formic Acid based 6%
Powdered sugar -2% (meaning more likely to die)
Drone removal -1%
SBB 2%
Small Cell -0.4%
MiteAThol 1%
Grease Patty 3%
Antibiotics 2%
Fumagillin -0.2%
Nosevet 0%
Small Hive Beetle trap 9%
Mineral Oil -0.5%

In an overall comparison of methods (losses)
No non-bee products 33.6%
Natural 35.6%
Prefer natural 33.1
Anything 35.7%
Other 30.8%

Many of these are within the margin of error meaning they don't show a significant difference.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Just as a reminder, the survey counts colony losses after October 1st as winter losses, so keep track for the survey next year.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tried to take the survey, but no foreigners allowed. 

As the focus in this thread seems to be focussing on losses for TF vs non TF, my own personal losses have skyrocketed since setting up some TF hives.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

So I've been reading some of the survey results and admit to being somewhat disheartened by what I am reading. There really doesn't seem to be much difference between treating and not treating. (Argh. I was hoping for at least some CLUE as to which way to go on this!) About 27% die-off every winter. That's the only number that does seem to be improving. But WHY is it improving? I can't see anything there that even hints at the reason, or am I just not reading it right?

What I find disappointing is that with all the information in this thing, there is nothing about the bees themselves. I mean, USDA has introduced how many new resistant strains now, yet nobody seems to be measuring whether or not these new strains are having any impact. Don't we need to know that too? Shouldn't we be asking how many are using them and if they are having any success with them? Or did I somehow miss that part?

sigh. I was hoping to be able to use the survey to help guide me in some choices, but it doesn't seem to be working out that way.


Rusty


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well the results won't quite tell the whole story. The TF respondants would be a *tiny* proportion of the total number of hives reported on. TF beekeepers who are failing / have failed, would be less likely to respond. And the TF beekeepers who did respond mainly run small and often isolated, stationary apiaries, which contrast markedly to the stresses that commercial migratory hives are put under.

Among Tf beekeepers there are a few stars with good results, who will no doubt be happy to respond to the survey. However having read this forum going back several years I know that only 27% losses annually would be a pipe dream for many. Try dropping a tf yard of bees from say, Sol, into the middle of a large migratory commercial operation and see what's happened to those bees in another year. All things being equal I think you would have to say that treated bees will be more likely to survive. They definately are where I am.

Having said all that, is it important? Well, not so much. Somebody on the TF forum trying to tell a large commercial beekeeper that there is no point them treating because their losses will be the same anyway, is wasting their time. The commercial guy needs his bees to not just survive, but turn a profit. Here on the TF forum survival seems to be the only measure. 

Conversely, those who are attempting TF should not be discouraged by losses provided they can make enough increase to be sustainable. My own view is if I go TF, I'm going to have losses. But I accept that as a cost of the experiment.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i guess i'm just lucky, there have been bees on my property for the last five winters and there have been zero winter losses.

2008 4 hives

2009 6 hives

2010 4 hives (two summer losses after beekeeper died, both absconds from shb/moth infestation)

2011 10 hives (no summer or winter losses)

2012 17 hives (two summer losses, one laying worker and one varroa), i know we are not to april yet, but it looks like all 17 are gonna make it. and if they do, it will be five consecutive winters with zero losses.

i do insulate the top and have vents up there, but that's about it.


sol, thanks for the link to beeinformed.org 

i scoured that whole site after you first bumped the thread this fall, good stuff.

and i have signed up to participate in next year's survey.

for me, surveys are surveys, no more, no less.

when it comes to information that has some real meat on the bones, something i can readily use in my operation, i have gleaned more useful and practical information by the shared testimonials here on beesource.


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## Whitetail (Feb 3, 2011)

I've had good luck with strictly treatment free apiaries yielding the sword of"resistant" stock for years now. However, I fall I to the category Oldtimer mentioned. I'm smaller scale, and non migratory. I hand pick "permanent" apiaries. Moving bees stresses the heck out of them. When you combine that with exposure to everything out there, I'm sure it takes it's toll. I don't rely on them for a living either. I've less to lose. I think it would be cool to have a commercial pollination operation that selected for treatment free survival. I know the USDA did something similar when they bred the Pol Line Italians Glenn distributed. I'm not sure what treatments if any were administered. I've utilized some of those genetics in my operation with very high survival rates.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

So I've had a few hours to mull this over and I've come to a few conclusions. (How accurate they are is anybody's guess!)

It seems like however we choose to manage our hives--treat, don't treat, change out the foundation, use it forever, etc--the results are basically the same. So I coming away from this survey thinking that: 1. We should do whatever feels comfortable knowing that, statistically anyhow, nobody is getting any better results with their way than we are with ours. 2. The success or failure of a hive STILL depends mostly on the *skill of the beekeeper* in recognizing what is going on in the hive and around it, interpreting what that means to the hive, and being able to implement whatever the hive needs to survive both short term and long term. And 3. Our skill improves as we go along. The more we learn, the better we get and the more of our hives get to survive our education!

As always, JMO


Rusty


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

This year's survey is coming up at the end of March. Navigate over to http://beeinformed.org/participate/ and sign up to participate.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Interesting to find out that insulating does not have a significant effect colony survival, but upper entrances do.
http://parkerfarms.blogspot.com/2013/02/winter-prep-bee-informed-national-survey.html


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Insulating vs. ventilating. Not really that surprising.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

That was my theory. Bees don't heat the hive, therefore insulation of little value. Insulated lids help though, I suspect due to elimination of condensation on the roof, dripping onto the cluster, not because it keeps heat in.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Too bad there's not a catagory for insulated top plus top entrance.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

What surprises me, in all the survey categories, is how little difference anything makes.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The same goes for treatments if you look at some of the previous data. Sure, unload some dough to 'save' all your hives, but your mortality rate might actually go down by like 5%, maybe 10% with the best ones. What this survey shows in very basic terms is that every year, a third of your hives are going to die on average.

Compensate.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I guess I've been really lucky so far. I've treated some, not treated others, bought the dreaded packages, etc. and in total, in 3 yrs, am 29/30. I almost feel like I'd be a more educated beekeeper if I'd experienced more problems.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Yup, what you need is more adversity.:lpf:


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I've pretty much done everything I've been warned would lead to doom and keep waiting for the other shoe to drop...


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Okay, according to the survey, about a fifth of all hives were lost last year (2011-2012).


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Just to remind everyone, the survey starts tomorrow. Please participate. The more people participate, the more accurate the results are. And from what I understand, if they get 300 results from a single state, they can give results for that individual states.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i signed up, but never heard back.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Neither did I. I expect an email tomorrow when the survey opens.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

cool.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

The new ABJ (April) has a good article with Dennis Van Engelsdorp and the Bee Informed Partnership (BIP) survey.

EVERYONE NEEDS TO PARTICIPATE BECAUSE IF THERE ARE AT LEAST* 300 DIFFERENT PARTICIPANTS PER STATE*, *STATE SPECIFIC RESULTS *CAN BE BROKEN DOWN. 

If you belong to bee club it is essential that you make others in the club aware of this survey. The survey runs from today until 4/15 I believe. Also, remember that the survey is epidemiological based study. Again, if you don't understand what that is and how to extrapolate the results I urge you to read the April ABJ where Dennis Van Engelsdorp explains very plainly what that entails and means. No matter how big or small of a beekeeper you are....*PARTICIPATE*


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

just finished doing the survey. you have to go to the website:

http://beeinformed.org/


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

just finished doing the survey. you have to go to the website:

http://beeinformed.org/


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Fantastic. I just got the email, I'll do the survey this evening.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

Yes, it seems that the e-mails are going out right now. I completed the survey through the website and just check my email before clicking over here and noticed there was a survey in there. I just disregarded the email since I had already filled the survey out through the BIP website.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Reminder, today is the last day to take the survey!


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Preliminary results are out and look like there really were heavy losses this year.

winter-loss-survey-2012-2013/


Rusty


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Thanks Rusty, I was just about to post the results.

The Bee Informed Partnership (http://beeinformed.org), in collaboration with the Apiary
 Inspectors of America (AIA) and the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA),
is releasing preliminary results for the seventh annual national survey of honey bee
colony losses. For the 2012/2013 winter season, a total of 6,287 U.S. beekeepers
provided validated responses. Collectively, responding beekeepers managed 599,610
colonies in October 2012, representing about 22.9%1 of the country’s estimated 2.62
million colonies.

Preliminary survey results indicate that 31.1% of managed honey bee colonies in the
United States were lost during the 2012/2013 winter. This represents an increase in loss
of 9.2 points or 42% over the previous 2011/2012 winter’s total losses that were
estimated at 21.9% (Figure 1). This level of loss is on par with the 6 year average total
loss of 30.5%2.

On average, U.S. beekeepers lost 45.1% of the colonies in their operation during the
winter of 2012/2013. This is a 19.8 point or 78.2% increase in the average operational
loss compared to the previous winter (2011/2012), which was estimated at 25.3%. The
difference between average loss and total loss is explained by the respondent pool: while
a majority of the respondents (95%) were backyard beekeepers, they managed a small
fraction of the colonies represented in the survey (6%). For this reason total loss (which
is more heavily influenced by commercial beekeeper losses) is more representative of
national losses.

Survey participants indicated that they considered a loss rate of 15% as “acceptable,” but
70% of them suffered losses greater than this.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

When does the full report get released?


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

I'm relatively new to beekeeping, so I'm curious as to why only 5% of the responders were commercial beekeepers. Is this due to commercial beekeepers not bothering to respond, or is it that 95% of beekeepers are backyard beekeepers?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

More like the latter.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tango Yankee said:


> I'm relatively new to beekeeping, so I'm curious as to why only 5% of the responders were commercial beekeepers. Is this due to commercial beekeepers not bothering to respond, or is it that 95% of beekeepers are backyard beekeepers?


Perhaps backyard beekeepers are happy to be asked and commercial beekeeper are tired of being asked and are busy working at keeping their business afloat. And having already answered USDA production surveys have better things to do.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Come on Mark, if some newbee gave you a BS answer like that, you'd tear them up.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Call it what you wish. Why do you think so few commercial beekeepers participated? And don't give me a bull **** answer.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Perhaps backyard beekeepers are happy to be asked and commercial beekeeper are tired of being asked and are busy working at keeping their business afloat. And having already answered USDA production surveys have better things to do.


I do fill out lots of surveys myself but I plead ignorance on this one. This has never been presented to me as a formal request as the NASS surveys are and the 95% non-response number apparently suggests Mark and I are not alone on this. I would be glad to do so if asked. Frankly the whole issue of losses Is a bit ill defined in my mind as among other things the quality of surviving hives isnt factored in. I probably took around 10% losses through the summer and another 5% to 7% through the winter. With the overall quality this of bees this spring we could easily have made a 25 to 30% increase but stopped when all of our equipment was full.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Me too Jim. I didn't do the math this Spring when I got to SC in March, so I don't know what my so called Winterloss was. And, had I filled out the survey, was there a column for "Number of colonies which starved due to beekeeper error."? I killed a bunch of colonies by splitting in anticipation of a nectar flow which didn't come. And then I filled almost every empty pallet and 60 out of 80 nuc boxes, returning North w/ more colonies than I went South w/ last Fall. I now have 100 plus more colonies than I did last Fall. So, my increase far outweighs my loss, doesn't it? How does the survey account for that?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> How does the survey account for that?


All that kind of info is interesting, but just straight losses is interesting, regardless of what the beekeeper did afterwards to make them up.

To me, the survey is structured too simplistically and does not give all the answers we want. But, there may be a reason for that. If the questioning was more detailed, say, as to how the strength of the survivors was etc, it would be delving more into peoples opinions, rather than just is hive alive, yes, no? The more it would be relying on opinions the less useful the results would be.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Well from a management standpoint I consider a "loss" as a lost cause. The majority of our "losses" are hives which I prefer to unite with another hive as opposed to nursing it along so that I don't have to worry about finding a box full of wax moth if it dosent get checked again for a month. My guess (and it's only a guess) is that most hobbyists, who think of their hives more as pets than production units, prefer to nurse that hive along perhaps requeening it at some point and never really consider that hive a loss though it may not have made any surplus honey. To me that hive is a loss. The only thing that matters to me, in the final analysis, is that our equipment is full each spring with strong hives capable of making a honey crop on June 1.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> More like the latter.


At least in our area this is true. ~10% of beekeepers run ~90% of the hives.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Solomon Parker said:


> Come on Mark, if some newbee gave you a BS answer like that, you'd tear them up.


Little harsh? Mark is a gentleman and I don't think he would tear any newbee up. Maybe if the guy was intentionally an obnoxious twert, otherwise, no.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> All that kind of info is interesting, but just straight losses is interesting, regardless of what the beekeeper did afterwards to make them up.
> 
> To me, the survey is structured too simplistically and does not give all the answers we want. But, there may be a reason for that. If the questioning was more detailed, say, as to how the strength of the survivors was etc, it would be delving more into peoples opinions, rather than just is hive alive, yes, no? The more it would be relying on opinions the less useful the results would be.


You know as well as I that the only beekeepers that really know at any one moment in time how many live colonies they have are small scale/back yard beekeepers. So, if I fill out the survey and say I have 534 colonies I'm lying. But that is probably accounted for.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Little harsh? Mark is a gentleman and I don't think he would tear any newbee up. Maybe if the guy was intentionally an obnoxious twert, otherwise, no.


 Solomon has experienced my impatience. That's probably where that friendly jab came from.

An elderly gentleman at that. I was standing at the OfficeMax Computer Repair counter, alone, yesterday when I heard a clerk announce that there was an elderly gentleman who needed help. I guess it's time to shave the beard and get some Grecian Formula. Ha,ha.


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Perhaps backyard beekeepers are happy to be asked and commercial beekeeper are tired of being asked and are busy working at keeping their business afloat. And having already answered USDA production surveys have better things to do.


Perhaps I worded my question badly. "Bothered" can have a negative connotation to some ears. "Opted not to respond" may have been a better choice.

Everyone gets surveys for different things. Surveys about their visit to the doctor, the store, the movies, etcetera. We either take them or ignore them depending on our mood, available time, attitude towards surveys, whether or not we think our responses will be beneficial in some way, and in some cases whether or not we have an ax to grind. 

With this in mind, I'm sure that "backyard" beekeepers are happy to respond, especially if, like myself, part of the reason for getting into beekeeping in the first place was reading about the problems bees are having and wanting help in some way especially if they were already interested in bees to begin with. We likely aren't going to be receiving survey requests from the USDA, though I'm sure that individual states will have their own surveys.

On the other hand, not being a commercial beekeeper and a being new "backyard" beekeeper at that, I have no idea what various surveys commercial beekeepers may be asked or required to complete and submit or whether or not those surveys mirror or overlap the one in question. If commercial beekeepers have already answered a bunch of surveys I can see how yet another one might be frustrating or annoying if they don't see any added value in it. Or, as others have indicated, they may not have a good idea as to how many they lost over the winter due to the sheer number of hives they do have (though it seems to me that at some point at the end of winter you'd be checking for dead colonies so you can reuse the equipment, etcetera.) 

I suppose another related question would be "At what point does a beekeeper become a "commercial" beekeeper? Does a hobbiest cross the line into commercial the first time they sell their excess honey at a farmer's market? Start raising queen bees to sell to others in their club? What's the definition of "commercial"? I suppose there may be some who do not identify themselves as commercial in the survey because they don't consider themselves so but actually are under some definitions.

In the end, though, I was surprised by the ratio of non-commercial to commercial beekeepers who responded, which prompted my query. 

Regards,
Tom


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tango Yankee said:


> In the end, though, I was surprised by the ratio of non-commercial to commercial beekeepers who responded, which prompted my query.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom


Small beekeepers hugely outnumber large beekeepers.

You may want as many commercial beekeepers to answer the survey as small beekeepers, but it cannot happen.


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Small beekeepers hugely outnumber large beekeepers.
> 
> You may want as many commercial beekeepers to answer the survey as small beekeepers, but it cannot happen.


While I suspect that the originators of the survey would be gratified to have as many beekeepers as possible respond to their survey, my question was based on my surprise at the ratio of non-commercial beekeepers to commercial beekeepers as I have no idea what that actual ratio is. I was surprised at the huge difference between the two. For all I know that five percent _was_ a majority of commercial beekeepers.

Regards,
Tom

PS I certainly didn't expect my query to generate so much activity!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I am betting that anyone that studies the science of polling will tell you that the results of voluntary polls such as this tend to get skewed because the answerers dont tend to be a representative cross section but may well be heavily weighted towards the extremes on either end of the spectrum, each wanting to make sure their case is being made and hopefully with honest data. The marketplace, though, never lies and this late winter and spring was most certainly a sellers market for bees. Clearly there were some higher than expected bee shortages.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> the results of voluntary polls such as this tend to get skewed because the answerers dont tend to be a representative cross section


I'm sure this is true but it's still a pretty interesting read. The numbers might not be right on but I wonder how much it is skewed.


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Did u mean NOoooooo!! ? Not that question again.


It was a mostly rhetorical question. I'm sure there are people out there with 200 hives selling honey, queens, and beeswax products along with hauling hives to get paid for pollinating local fields who will say they're just doing it to support their hobby and therefore do not consider themselves commercial. 

It is a reasonable question and your reaction does indicate that it is a common one and apparently a touchy one, too. Perhaps the Beekeeping Glossary should have an entry for it: "Commercial Beekeeper: You become a commercial beekeeper when you decide that's what you are" or something like that. Or not. Perhaps just "Don't Ask."

And with that, I will not pursue it further.

Regards,
Tom


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

We had a whole Thread arguing about what defines the term ommercial beekeeper and another arguing about whether there were any or very many TreatmentFree Commercial Beekeepers. You may have heard the old saying that if you ask 10 beekeepers a question you will get 11 answers? Well, to answer your question, in my opinion, it takes more than simply doing business w/ your bees. The majority of your income should be made thru beekeeping. It's what you do for a living. The American Beekeepers Federation considers 300 colonies as the number which puts one in the Commercial Category for dues paying members. Many people will say 500 plus. Someone w/ 20 hives, selling honey, selling nucs, and selling queens is not, imo, a commercial beekeeper. Doesn't mean you aren't a beekeeper.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Tango Yankee said:


> "At what point does a beekeeper become a "commercial" beekeeper?


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?253281-How-many-colonies-to-be-considered-commercial


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Thanks for the link, Barry. Perhaps it should be in the glossary next to "Commercial Beekeeper".  

In further hindsight, perhaps my question would have been more accurate if I'd asked what the group that put out the survey considered "commercial" for their purposes.

Mark, I don't have any dogs in that fight, just curiosity. Part of my thoughts on it had to do with the idea of being a professional--once you start getting paid for something you go from being amateur to professional kind of thing, but I recognized that definition wasn't a good fit. In the end it's probably more about semantics and opinion than anything else after a somewhat vague point when so many different factors can be cited and weighted differently depending upon the point of view. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tom, We are okay. No problems. In beekeeping there are terms which we use that mean things to those whose avocation is beekeeping. I hope I don't seem to be talking down to you. I don't mean to. We have a certain understanding of what the terms "hobbyist" (or small scale), "sideliner", and "commercial" beekeeper means. There probably is a "Dictionary of Beekeeping Terms" out there somewhere, maybe on beesource itself, but mostly it's an understanding. Some people may say to people outside of beekeeping circles that they are a Professional Beekeeper, but I haven't heard that term amongst beekeepers. Welcome to beesource. I hope you stick around.


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

No worries, Mark. Every profession, career field, hobby, etcetera has its own language. I'm still learning Beekeeper.  I like the bees, and so does my wife. We've found that beekeepers are a friendly lot. I'll be here a while.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

I'm disappointed that it is the middle of July and there is still no final report from Bee Informed. The only thing they seem to have posted are the preliminary results from back in early May. It may be silly of me, but I was kinda hoping to use the results to help point me in the right direction for my winter planning.

:scratch:

Rusty


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You were looking to a National Survey to decide how to manage your bees? Why? How would that work?


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Thanks to last year's survey, I 'll be using upper entrances for winter. Thanks to last year's survey, I didn't bother experimenting with small cell or FGMO. Thanks to last year's survey, I changed my approach to SHB. Saved some time and resources.

Rusty

edited to add: I think the biggest impact for me was seeing how little difference y'get from using or not using options that have set off absolute firestorms on these boards between the various factions. Everything seems to work or not work about equally. That was very freeing for me. It allowed me to just go with my own gut on most stuff, knowing that my choices wouldn't be any better or any worse than anybody elses. LOLOL


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I found the surveys very interesting too. You do have to bear in mind that even though commercial beekeepers have the largest representation in the survey, the commercial guys who actually responded are a very small minority of the commercial industry.

But that said, I took great reassurance from the fact that of the respondents, those who treated their hives didn't have significantly different survival rates from those who did no treatment. This was a welcome bit of information to me, because you hear, over and over on forums like this, that if you don't treat, you are an evil bee abuser who doesn't care if his bees live or die. 

I think it's human nature to want to do* something* when things go wrong, and sometimes, we may be doing things that actually make matters worse than they would be if we did nothing. There's certainly plenty of examples of such mistakes from the past... Theodoric of York comes to mind in that regard.

Anyway, any statistician would tell you that the survey is fundamentally flawed. Still, some data is better than no data, and there is data to be mined from the survey results.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

for those who took the survey, you may recall that a lot of management option questions offered the response of 'i'd rather not say'.

answers like this or not wanting to be surveyed at all for a similar reason is why the results have to be viewed as biased or at least not necessarily representative of the universe of managed bees.

still, the trends that are borne out are somewhat helpful.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Thanks to last year's survey, I 'll be using upper entrances for winter. Thanks to last year's survey, I didn't bother experimenting with small cell or FGMO. Thanks to last year's survey, I changed my approach to SHB. Saved some time and resources.
> 
> Rusty


I guess I better take a look at that survey. I didn't know there was anything about upper entrances and wintering, small cell, FGMO and how to handle SHB.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Wondering when they are ever going to get past the preliminary results to the final results?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Mark, they do get very good info on management practices when they get around to publishing it all. That's where I get the info I quote all the time about how different appliances and methods don't work.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Looking forward to seeing the final draft. Will it be published on beesource.com when it comes available?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I will link to it when I find it. You can see previous years' data already if you're interested.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Here it is Solomon, long time coming but I suspect they have better data this time.

http://beeinformed.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/2.-VarroaControlSummary.pdf


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Product O


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Hmmm, that was the year I had the most colonies and the least losses in all my career.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Still saying losses are not significantly higher for treatment free folks Solomon?

Ray?


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Still saying losses are not significantly higher for treatment free folks Solomon?
> 
> Ray?


Well, it wasn't true for one year, at least.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

It was actually, just had to read the data properly, through an unbiased lens. This year they have seen how it was misinterpreted & written it harder to misunderstand, or cherry pick to suit an agenda.

Where's Bispham? He's all over the forum like a rash, then mentions a few mite issues, next thing poof, he's gone, vanished! Collecting new swarms I guess to maintain numbers.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

The results were interesting, thank you for sharing Oldtimer.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I meant that there was a significant difference last year, but it was true in some prior years that the difference was less. I always found it odd that there was so little difference in prior years, because I assumed that most non-treaters were relative novices, and thus more likely to lose their bees, for other reasons.

So far my problems have been too many bees, and hives that were excessively strong for the backyard, but I'm sure I'll have different results by fall.

My North Country bees had 100% survival, despite the ferocious winter. But honesty compels me to admit that I only left one hive up there. Still, I was astonished that it survived, because it was a little light in October, and I failed to close down the entrance. No wrapping or insulation, and yet it was brooding up nicely in April. 

I'm taking a half-dozen home-made nucs north to NY in a few days. It's nice not having to buy bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ray there has always been a difference, as one would expect, despite what has been said on Beesource.

It has been stated on the likes of Beesource that there is no difference, however that has been backed up by spin and carefully cherry picked and massaged data, or not backed up at all.

The previous survey, which some claimed showed no difference, when read properly showed a 30% difference and because of all the dishonesty I demonstrated that one time. None of the people who had been using data in a misleading manner responded.

This is all the more remarkable considering the stressors commercial hives are subjected to that treatment free, stationary, intensively cared for, hobby hives, are not subjected to.

Anyhow congrats on having all but one of your hives survive.

Where's Bispham? Kinda quiet around here lately.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> I'm taking a half-dozen home-made nucs north to NY in a few days. It's nice not having to buy bees.


How r u going to do that and not have the same experience as last time? When r u coming North?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

My losses this past winter were actually a bit higher than the winter before but more significantly hive populations were down. Why? There is no doubt in my mind that it's because I got a bit behind on our treatment plan. My hives got a single thymol treatment which I chose to delay because of a late heat wave. We didn't do any oxalic treating because it got too late on us to do it up north. Late winter/early spring sampling was showing 2 to 3% infestations at a time of year when it should be difficult to find a mite. This spring we changed course and opted for a single treatment of either oxalic or Hopguard at the 3 week window post queen removal in our spring nucing and saw a good mite knockdown. Bees look awesome right now, well see how they look 4 months from now.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> How r u going to do that and not have the same experience as last time? When r u coming North?


I'm going back to the standard nuc boxes that I moved without problem last year, I'm putting them on the trailer under shade instead of inside the car, and I'm moving nucs that aren't as chock full of bees as the one I lost. I had another nuc that made it fine on the same trip that killed the big nuc-- the one that died had a *lot* of bees. It was an overwintered nuc that was booming. I've about decided that the problem was too many bees.

I'm planning to take off in a few days.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

From another thread. VanEngelsdorp is one of the principal investigators. He says it in no uncertain terms.



beemandan said:


> _The survey found that bee mortality was much lower for beekeepers who carefully treated their hives to control the mites.
> 
> VanEngelsdorp said small-scale beekeepers in particular should be more diligent about using anti-mite treatments._
> 
> http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/hope-honeybees-experts-pitch-plan-curb-deaths-n105651


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

rhaldridge said:


> I've about decided that the problem was too many bees.


I remember the discussion around that & advice at the time from experienced bee movers was do not block them in.

Too many bees do not kill a hive, blocking them in does. It's one of the biggest arguments I have with some people who buy my bees, some of whom seem hell bent on ensuring all the bees they have just paid for will be dead by the time they get home. Experience is the only way some people can learn. One guy did too, soon as he was out of my site he pulled over & blocked all the hives in, this so he could visit a relation on the way home. I heard via his friend that when he got home there was not a bee left alive. The guy himself though has never fessed up to me about it, but I am sure he will not do it again.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

You have to love how NBC's report attempts to balance Dr. Lu's bee poisoning experiment involving 24 hives against the real world experiences of about 3,800 respondents operating well over a half million hives. Furthermore the bee informed survey can't begin to determine whether treatments were timely or effective only that they were administered. Ideal treatment windows are often quite narrow.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Quote - "The survey found that bee mortality was much lower for beekeepers who *carefully* treated their hives to control the mites".

I have highlighted *carefully*, because I think this is one of the main weaknesses in the survey. The treatment free participants, who seem to be the majority, avoid treating if at all possible. It is only when they see a hive badly infested with mites and in obvious distress, that they may reluctantly decide to treat it. However going by the treads I've seen with people talking about this, very often the hive is too far gone & dies out completely not long after treatment is applied.

Then on the survey, this hive is entered as one that was treated, but died anyway. But what really killed the hive, was not being treated, early enough. 

However, despite these types of discrepancies, IMO the survey is being done as well as it could be, working with a diverse group of people using many methods and having many experience levels, and not being able to fully investigate each case, it melds the whole thing into a workable result.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Furthermore the bee informed survey can't begin to determine whether treatments were timely or effective only that they were administered. Ideal treatment windows are often quite narrow.


The nail on the head.
They offered a twelve month window on treatments....then without regard for timing....weighed them all equally. If they refine their data collection a bit more.... they just might produce something meaningful.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> I remember the discussion around that & advice at the time from experienced bee movers was do not block them in.
> 
> Too many bees do not kill a hive, blocking them in does..


Actually, I took your advice and put screened tops on the 8 frame deep boxes. The boxes were identical, one died and one did fine. I think that there were too many bees in one box, since that was the only difference between them. 

Are you saying I should have left the hive completely open? How would that have worked in a car? If you were to put them on a trailer with the entrance open, wouldn't you lose a lot of bees over a 36 hour trip? I don't have a bee net.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Quote - "The survey found that bee mortality was much lower for beekeepers who *carefully* treated their hives to control the mites".


Would applying Apivar in March when varroa counts are very low be considered *carefully *​treated?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> applying Apivar in March


How were they in September?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Why do you ask? I am trying to treat carefully starting w/ my Spring treatment. I will use Apigaurd come Fall.

I figured that a Spring treatment when few varroa wete present would result in few being present come Fall.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

rhaldridge said:


> Actually, I took your advice and put screened tops on the 8 frame deep boxes. The boxes were identical, one died and one did fine. I think that there were too many bees in one box, since that was the only difference between them.
> 
> Are you saying I should have left the hive completely open? How would that have worked in a car? If you were to put them on a trailer with the entrance open, wouldn't you lose a lot of bees over a 36 hour trip? I don't have a bee net.


Thats a tough scenario Ray. Ideally for a trip that length they would be netted (perhaps in a pickup box) and have the freedom to crawl in or out as needed. I have put screens on hives many times but never for more than overnight and even then with some trepidation if it was warm at all. What can happen (and what you no doubt experienced) is that they can begin to get restless and a layer of bees will quickly plug up the screen, smothering all the bees under them. A screen top and bottom would greatly help with some type of shade board above the screen and a couple 2x2's underneath to allow for air flow.. When you stop you can lay a paper towel on the screen and thoroughly soak it so that the bees get a controlled drip of water over them. Perhaps you can pick up a piece of shade cloth at a local nursery?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

rhaldridge said:


> Actually, I took your advice and put screened tops on the 8 frame deep boxes. The boxes were identical, one died and one did fine. I think that there were too many bees in one box, since that was the only difference between them.
> 
> Are you saying I should have left the hive completely open? How would that have worked in a car? If you were to put them on a trailer with the entrance open, wouldn't you lose a lot of bees over a 36 hour trip? I don't have a bee net.


Oh, sorry something I had input into did not work out. As memory serves though there was also an understanding they would be out of direct sun and airconditioning would be used. If it's a real crowded hive stopping the car and turning off the aircon even for a short while can be the end of the bees.

Re travelling with the hives open, yes, that's the only way I do it. Better to lose some of the bees that all of the bees. If it's more than a day (which is a long time since that's happened for me) the trip is planned so driving starts in the morning before bees are flying & othert than quick refuel stops, once I stop for the day I stay there for the night & get moving next morning again.

I do sell bees to people who do not have the ability & have to take hives blocked in. In those cases it's a judgement call about what extent to mesh the hive tops, etc.. it depends on hive makeup, weather conditions and how they will be travelling, but I can say not one hive I have sold has been lost in transport in many years, provided the purchaser has followed my instructions.

I recently sold hives that were meshed in, and went on a truck on a public ferry, to an offshore island, so that was one thing I had to get absolutely right or could have been a major disaster!!


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Why do you ask?


I'm trying to get away with doing nothing in Spring. So did the Spring treatment make a difference?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

In the brood broken when the supers were taken apart to day no mites were seen. Out of all of the broken brood from 32 hives. Not that every hive had broken brood.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

That's pretty good. Did you treat those again in Fall?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I treated them last Fall. But not again in the Fall yet. 

I used Apigaurd last Fall. I experienced a higher Winterloss than I expected, but I don't blame that on the Apigaurd. I blame that on not feeding enough.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Jim, that was exactly what happened-- a thick layer of bees built up on the mesh top and the screened opening and a vent hole in the bottom, and choked off the air. There were 3 inches of dead bees in the bottom, and at least a couple of inches pressed into the top. I really think there were just too many bees, because the other nuc, which I'd made up just a few weeks before, did fine. They were in an air-conditioned car and shaded. I drove straight through-- took about 36 hours.

I'm planning to put the nucs I'm taking this time on a trailer, with a sheet of roofing metal over them for shade (blocked up away from the tops, so there's air movement between nucs and metal.) I do have a camper's mosquito net. I wonder if I should net them with that and leave the entrances open. No, I don't guess that would hold up to the buffeting at highway speeds.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How are you going to hold the sheet metal down so it doesn't act like a sail and flop around from the wind.

I don't think the sheet metal is a good idea. The hives don't need shade as much as they need constant air circulation. Get on the road. Stop for fuel and food and get back on the road. Don't go inside and sit down to a leisurley meal. Eat in the car. Stop at Flying J truck stops and find the water hose over where the mobile homes fuel up and use that water to hose down your hives. That's what I am going to do when I go get my nucs.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

An air conditioned vehicle would work IF you are really vigilant. Keep a cooler of ice handy and if they get restless lay a papertowel over part of the screen and place some ice on top of that. I have tried ice right on the screen but it can be kind of tough on the brood, though it will settle them down in a hurry.
But a 36 hour trip if they are very populous?.......I dunno.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Mark, how are your nucs packaged?

I don't think the sheet metal would flap, because the way my trailer is set up, there's a 6 foot enclosed space on it, and behind that a 4 foot open space. I planned to strap down the nucs at the tail end of the open space, put 2X blocks to separate the sheet metal from the nuc tops, add the roofing panel, then ratchet strap a 4 foot long hive on top of that.

I wonder if I bought a garden sprayer, filled it with water and ice, and sprayed them down every time I stopped, if that would help.

I've also thought about leaving in the evening, so that I'd only have one day of travel, and two nights. I assume the nights are easier on the bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> That was two days worth of "how I treated my hives" and "how effective were your/my treatments?" in the treatment-free forum.
> 
> I'm going to go take a shower.


Why was a Bee Informed National Survey even in the Treatment Free Forum to begin with? Certainly the Survey wasn't about Treatment Free only survival.

Ray,
My nucs are in 5 frame nuc boxes w/ a three inch wide entrance. They will be on pallets. Ten to a pallet, four pallets tall, two rows. They will be on the deck of my truck under a net. 

I should have shipped them North when I came up a month ago, but they weren't ready and neither was the weather and I didn't want to have to feed them. Now it is hot and I expect them to get hot on the truck under the net. So I will be stopping where I can hose them down every now and then.

Yes, transporting them at night is somewhat easier on them if temps are cooler. But when will you sleep? If you are going to stop to sleep then night time is the best time for that.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I'm moving this out of the TF forum.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ev...ids=380637502116480&fb_action_types=og.shares

If you read all the comments posted, I don't read a good balance of views.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Barry.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Hey Grumps, have another cup of coffee! In case you didn't notice, it's actually almost three years later.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Okay.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It worked! Glad to see the smiling Mark! Sol was heading up the TF forum for sometime and I failed to notice this thread being started in that forum under his watch. Had I caught it at the beginning, I would have moved it then. I'm also cleaning it up and deleting off topic posts. Just doing my part as things come to my attention.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Barry said:


> Hey Grumps


You mean Gramps....right?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> It worked! Glad to see the smiling Mark! Sol was heading up the TF forum for sometime and I failed to notice this thread being started in that forum under his watch. Had I caught it at the beginning, I would have moved it then. I'm also cleaning it up and deleting off topic posts. Just doing my part as things come to my attention.


it'sallgood.

Your response to my Reply was pretty fast. I was impressed. Too cold in Chi Town to work outdoors today?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> You mean Gramps....right?


I am, just not your Gramps. lol


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Grumpy Gramps? Are you a Grandpa Mark?

Don't have to be on the other job till 10:00 today. Tropical weather here compared to the east.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't want to reveal too much personal information on the internet. :lpf:


But yes.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Barry said:


> Grumpy Gramps? Are you a Grandpa Mark?


Grandchildren not required, When I was a young fellow....all the old geezers were referred to as gramps. Of course....now that the shoe is on the other foot........


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Barry said:


> Sol was heading up the TF forum for sometime and I failed to notice this thread being started in that forum under his watch. Had I caught it at the beginning, I would have moved it then. I'm also cleaning it up and deleting off topic posts. Just doing my part as things come to my attention.


Nice work Barry I never thought this thread should have been in the TF forum. There were a number of threads and this was one, that were mischievously posted in the TF forum for no better reason than to legally stifle discussion of anything contrary to the OP's views.


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