# Using Levitsky/Ukrainian-style frames in vertical stacks.



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Some sites give the Levitsky frame dimensions as: *240x432 mm*., and the Ukrainian frame as: *300x435 mm*. This guy






and






gives the 'standard' Ukrainian frame dimensions as: *265x415 mm*. Despite these differences, the trend is clear enough - frames which are short but very deep (at around 16-17 inches*(*) *).

Now the Gallup frame, which I've recently been working with is 285x285 mm (or 11 1/4" x 11 1/4"), which fits very nicely into a 300x300 (12x12") cavity, and I've been making my own 'Gallup-style' frames a little shorter at 285x215 mm (in order to fit into the British National 225mm box height), as well as pukka 285x285 mm Gallup frames, which of course require a suitable shim beneath the 'Warre-style' boxes I use, which have also been made a tad deeper at 225mm, in order to retain some compatibility with the standard British National box depth.

The common denominator of all these various sizes would appear to be a frame length of somewhere between 240 and 300 mm - within which the Gallup's 285mm fits rather well.

And as regards depth (and using the standard Gallup frame as a reference), then the 285x215 mm frames I've been using are 3/4 that of a Gallup frame - *and this is where it gets kinda interesting - a 285x435 mm Levitsky/Ukrainian-style frame would be precisely 1.5 times the depth of a standard Gallup frame - and would fit very nicely into a 300x300 cavity *(suitable depth adjustments being made, of course). And that makes the use of such frames a very attractive proposition indeed.

Why ? Well, I'm gradually becoming aware that old age and vertical beehive stacks are not really compatible, and although the use of Long Hives is one obvious solution to this,* a 285x435 mm Levitsky/Ukrainian-style frame would fit perfectly into a dual stack of two of my Warre-style boxes*. (If your Warre boxes are 'standard' 210mm height, then you'll need to make your Levitsky/ Ukrainian-style frames a little shorter than mine - either that or add a small shim)

As we're only talking 8 frames when using Warre boxes to house these Ukrainian-style frames, there'll pretty obviously be a need to use supers - these could then be of the shallow (circa 4-inch) depth which Greg has already championed for the more beekeeper-friendly versions of the 300x300 stack.

Looks like I'll be making some custom frames over the winter. 
LJ

*(*)* I already have one hive with 16 1/2 inch deep frames, but with the British National frame length of 14" (17" top-bars). One major problem I encountered when making those frames was that I had to use 5mm bamboo skewers in order to get enough length - but that was before I discovered the reluctance of bees to incorporate 5mm dia skewers. One bonus of a frame length of 285mm would mean that 300mm x 3mm dia. skewers could then be used - a size which can be readily sourced.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Off-topic note - these depicted hives also demonstrate how the tops are sealed with heavy duty film (I think they ended up using silicon film for its durability).


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

These were really interesting. In the second video he says the frame is 265mm wide, that is around 10.4 inches which is the close to the depth of a deep lang frame. Is this a mistake, as they look wider than that? If not, it surely would be compatible with the deep lang frames and easy to use with standard lang equipment.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I have not kept track of this particular channel for some time.
Looks like the hive designer is switching to running 8x8x8 vertical and square hives - he just gotten older. 





Here is still his older configuration - 12x8 (12 deep frames bottom; 8 standard Lang frames top).
This is very much similar to my own hybrid hive.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

little_john said:


> Some sites give the Levitsky frame dimensions as: *240x432 mm*., and the Ukrainian frame as: *300x435 mm*. This guy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kazimierz Lewicki ( pronaunced like Levitsky) was a Polish beekeeper (pszczelarz) who developed Warsaw Hive (Ul Warszawski).
Regular Warsaw Hive had frames 240x435mmm and Wide Warsaw Hive had frames 300x435mm.

This short info about Lewicki Kazimierz Lewicki (pszczelarz) – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia

One can buy both frame sizes from Lyson (Ramka Warszawska Zwykła (10 szt.))


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

> *Little John:* Some sites give the Levitsky frame dimensions as:* 240x432 mm.*, and the Ukrainian frame as: *300x435 mm.
> 
> jtgoral:* Kazimierz Lewicki (pronaunced like Levitsky) was a Polish beekeeper (pszczelarz) who developed Warsaw Hive (Ul Warszawski). Regular Warsaw Hive had frames *240x435mm* and Wide Warsaw Hive had frames *300x435mm.*



Thanks for that - yes - these dimensions have clearly been well-proven over the years, and my current interest lies very much towards adopting this trend of "narrow, extra-deep frames". And, judging from other threads, I'm far from being alone in pursuing this interest ... 

FWIW, for myself I've adopted a frame size of *285mm x 435mm *(external measurements) for the coming year's work - which is a compromise between the two sizes given above, and which will neatly fit into a stack of two of my Warre-style boxes, or into any of the Layens variation builds (except the 'Divisible') if those are suitably dimensioned. So - one size of brood frame will then fit several hive-types.

FWIW(2), several dozen of these frames were built over winter, together with a handful of movable partition/divider boards to be used primarily with the horizontal format hives, and my attention has now turned to how best to introduce established colonies onto these extra-deep frames, especially those on the shorter Gallup frames (which I'll now use in 'supers' rather than in brood boxes). For such transfers the use of a 'quiet box' to hold the extra-deep frames appears to be desirable, and so - not having anything suitable - I went ahead and built one (from pallet wood ... what else ?  ).










Although it's primary use is intended to be as a 'quiet box', I've built it so that this box can be used for a QD*(*) *experiment as well: it's common knowledge that bees have little incentive to build wild comb *beneath* extra-deep frames, and I wondered whether this reluctance applies equally to the sides as well - so I've provided over an inch of clearance to either side of the frames. It'll be interesting to see what happens. 
In anticipating this will probably (hopefully) prove acceptable to the bees, I've made the base 'screw-on', so that I could later insert a shim between base and box for VOA introduction. and thus continue to use this box as a beehive. But - if nothing else, with a padded top added - it should make a rather nice seat. LOL
'best to all,
LJ

*(*)* - Quick 'n' Dirty.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Probably your frame can have ~8k cells and you need ~5 frames for brood from the 21 day brood cycle and 15 frames to accommodate hatched nurse bees.... Those are numbers for a queen lying 2k eggs/day


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

little_john said:


> it's common knowledge that bees have little incentive to build wild comb *beneath* extra-deep frames, and I wondered whether this reluctance applies equally to the sides as well - so I've provided over an inch of clearance to either side of the frames. It'll be interesting to see what happens.


Nice experiment.
The bottom will be fine, the Sides IMO will get bur comb.  7/16 or .475 inches would likely work better.

to start them, I would do a shook swarm, or a real swarm if you find one on a bush some where.

good luck

GG


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Sure - many ways of introducing a colony: a swarm (which is never available when you want one LOL  ); simply dump the bees in (not a very elegant method); some form of box adapter, allowing the bees to transfer frames in their own time, or ...

... this is what I plan to do with the two colonies currently over-wintering in existing Warre-style stacks. Existing 'half-height' frames coloured light brown; full-depth frames in magenta; and moveable partition board in dark grey:








Assuming the existing colonies are on 6 frames, then set these up as '3-over-3', pushed to the side of two Warre-style 8-frame boxes. Insert a pair of full-depth frames next to them to be drawn-out, with a partition board in place to reduce the box volume (as shown in A).
Then, once the full-depth frames are drawn-out and occupied, re-locate the partition board (as shown in B) to act as a Queen Excluder, ensuring that the Queen is present on those full-depth frames of course, and leave like that until the half-depth frames have been cleared.
As the colony becomes established on the full-depth frames, at some point there'll come a time when the half-depth frames will need to be removed, and that's where the 'quiet box' comes into play - to hold the deeper frames during that procedure. I anticpate the transfer to be straightforward, and without significant colony set-back (ever the optimist).

To install a colony from a British National to a Ukrainina/Layens Long Hive, I've also made-up some frame adapters so that I can 'do a Greg' by rotating a few B.N. deep frames through 90 degrees. That too should be an easy install. 

My thinking about the over-generous spacing at the frame sides was partly influenced by this photograph of a 'Sentry Box' beehive built and operated by Polish POW's during WWII in northern England. (If that puzzles anybody - not all Poles chose to be on the side of The Allies) 










That hive appears to have had over-generous spacing at the frame sides.
'best,
LJ


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## Taku (5 mo ago)

little_john said:


> I wondered whether this reluctance applies equally to the sides as well - so I've provided over an inch of clearance to either side of the frames. It'll be interesting to see what happens.


My dad made some square 12 frame suppers with similar spacing at the frame sides. No burr comb ever.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Perhaps side frame clearance not nearly so important as space between a comb face and another surface. I have tall way standing langstroth frames and the bees definitely starting serious comb building in the two inch space. Have added another frame in one colony and will put a follower in another.


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## Taku (5 mo ago)

Taku said:


> My dad made some square 12 frame suppers with similar spacing at the frame sides. No burr comb ever.


Here I took the picture of that hive while removing last honey frames and preparing for the feeding.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Taku said:


> Here I took the picture of that hive while removing last honey frames and preparing for the feeding.


Interesting - thanks.


> *Crofter:* Perhaps side frame clearance not nearly so important as space between a comb face and another surface. I have tall way standing langstroth frames and the bees definitely starting serious comb building in the two inch space.


Thinking back - I've never seen problems between a modest excessive clearance between side-bar and hive wall. On one or two occasions where a frame has gone out of square, I've seen attachments on the 'reduced clearance' side, but never on the opposite (enlarged clearance) side.

When faced with much larger spacings, my guess is that bees make a judgement as to whether the drawing-out of comb within that space is worthwhile or not. Probably up to around an inch is not considered worthwhile - unless they are really desperate for extra comb - whereas two inches or more at the sides would present as being a viable opportunity. 
Yes, I agree - face to face spacing is where bees become 'creative' when excessive clearances exist - spacing above the frames likewise.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> My thinking about the over-generous spacing at the frame sides was partly influenced by this photograph of a 'Sentry Box' beehive built and operated by Polish POW's during WWII in northern England. (If that puzzles anybody - not all Poles chose to be on the side of The Allies)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After doing this design for a number of years now in my nucs - bees only are using that space when they are *terribly crowded.*

At which point they must be either re-hived or split anyway (else they will try to swarm).

The pictured Polish long hive should not have any issues at the frames sides - plenty of space.

So all the commonly published tolerances (including the "bee space" itself rather often) are a function of common Root/Lang hives - that is where they belong.
By no means these tolerances are universal.


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