# new swarm to top bar possible?



## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

The Zen part of me says those bees have already started to settle in, disturbing them may make them decide to leave. More swarms will emerge from that barn, why not put the next one in your top bar. Better yet, research Cleo C Hogan's trapout method, run so as not to eliminate the mother hive it can yield several hive starts per season without damaging the mother hive.
Bill


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

You can absolutely move them to the topbar hive. Ideally, the topbar hive would be situated exactly where the Lang nuc box is right now, or the field bees will need to reorient to a new location. Did you use the actual bars of the topbar hive in the Lang nuc, or are they on something different? If not the topbars, it will be more difficult to move.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

You have a better chance for the colony to prosper if you just leave them alone and as whiskers stated, wait for the next swarm. The bees had gorged themselves on honey before swarming and have deposited that in the Lang. I'd set up the TBH with a few drops of lemon grass oil, and most important some old comb, place it forty or fifty yards away from the barn or more, perhaps in another out building.
The short answer is yes you can move them to the TBH, but I'd wait for a month until they build up more resources. Leaving them in the Lang just gives you a better chance for success.


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## AugustC (Aug 7, 2013)

You "can" transfer them the question is whether or not you should. The main thing for me is whether you used top bars in the Lang nuc or lang frames. 
If you used top bars then there is no problem at all. Put the top bar hive where the lang nuc is and lift the bars, bees and all, into the hive.
If not then you will have to mess them around a lot more. Next time I would recommend setting up a top bar nuc/bait hive. You can knock one up really quick and the top bars will transfer straight over into the final hive. Btw you may have a cast swarm out of the mother colony ~one week after the first so get building


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

DavidZ said:


> HI All,
> New here 1st question.


Welcome.



> Question
> Can I just transfer the bees to my top bar now before they get to cozy in the lang nuc, or is it a bit to late with the new drawn comb happening
> I really want them in the top bar if possible.


In your situation, I would dump the bees in the top bar. You could clip the queen's wing, but she could be a virgin and would not be able to get mated. Same thing with a queen excluder over the entrance. You could break the piece of comb off and stick it or heat wax it onto a top bar. But bees can get frustrated with their queen if there is too much intervention in the hive. There are risks with trying to get her in the top bar at this point, but it sounds like it's worth it to you. All this assumes that the bottom board in the top bar is solid, not screened.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Thanks All!
I was thinking the same thing as whiskers said and waiting for the next split. Trying to capture
each one throughout this season and in the future.
Since I used lang frames I'll let the stay as they are and not force them to move, plus they
already set up house. I looked for the queen, didn't see her yet.
I've already set up the top bar next to the outside opening. Not sure whose visiting, I
see bees on it and checking it out all the time. The top bar smells wonderful, the propolis
is all over inside from it's last use 3yrs ago. Hoping that's enough to attract them inside.

The nuc is doing real well the comb is big now it was attached to the top a little the bees cover 1-2 frames
I think I'm going to let these go and let them build up in a large lang do their thing. Make this a real learning
experience this season.

Making a 2nd top bar now, taking a short break and catching up.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

if the comb is that new, just cut it off and mash it to a bar and move to the TBH no biggie they will have it fixed and attached permanently in a day or so.


or wait a bit and use rescue bars


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Thanks Harley. I'm going to pull the comb tomorrow and place it in the top bar.
I found the Queen, she's big dark black and shiny. The bees are a mix of colours.
I went to take her pic and she dove into a hole in the comb. The comb comes off easy,
I broke apart the comb where it attached to the 2 frames, everyone came running to clean up the spill.
I figure this will work just right, with this one comb shaped perfect for my tb. I think the transfer will go good.
It's been exactly 7 days since I captured the swarm.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

This is Queen Arianna, my 7yr old boy named her.
She's shy, she runs and hides and then peeks out of the hole in the comb,
turns around goes back and hides again.
She's laying eggs, they are all over the comb tiny little larvae right now.
Not sure I want to disturb her.
These bees are very gentle, not very aggressive, a bit defensive without smoke.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Just how safe is it to move a new brood comb, will it harm the new forming larvae?
How about the pollen stores on the next frame? Will they take it to the tb out of the nuc?
I've read a few places saying they will just clean up. They are really building fast in the nuc. 
Lots of activity new comb on the other frames, and massive pollen stores now.

Once the queen is in the tb should I just seal it up for a few days to reorientate?
Only difference will be the direction and height from the ground of the hive, facing south instead of east.

Thanks All


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

ok, all done. what I did was to take a frame out of the nuc, and rig a top bar from my ktbh to be held inside the nuc, very easy.
after 4 days yesterday the girls drew a huge comb on the top bar, perfect.
I then placed that in the tbh, and then removed what is now a huge brood comb with bread and honey from the lang frame.
I tied it to the wire mesh frame and placed it into the tbh.
the Queen and many of the bees went inside no problem. I brushe as many as I could into the hive off the other frames, my guess is 3000 bees by the math.
Many of them started buzzing around and went back to the nuc, most stayed.

Now the hive is split there is a small brood comb with all stages of brood in the nuc, and the queen with a brood comb all stages in the tbh.

Question, will the old hive find the queen in the thb and move over to the tbh?
will the nuc possibly make a emergency queen?
maybe a new colony for my lang I'm building now
Do any think I may have hurt the colony, this is my first time .
I decided to plug up the entrance to the top bar to keep the queen inside.
think that's about everything...any advice?


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

guess this will be sort of a log keeping track of the different things happening...

Today I checked out the nuc box, doing the math there's about 2000 bees a nice brood, and bee bread. I found 2 queen cells being made on the brood.

In the top bar they have drawn a beautiful comb, they are taking care of the brood and looks to me like there is laying going on in the new comb. 
I didn't see the Queen in the top bar this evening, but I'm going to assume she is there doing the Queen thing.
estimating about 1500 bees or less.

hoping I didn't split them to early and hurt their chance for surviving the winter.
I'm not in for honey this year, will let both colonies have what they store this year.

I'm moving the nuc colony to a lang once it's a bit stronger. have food in the nuc.

seems all is well with both splits, everyone is going in and out bringing pollen into both hives.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

another note, I've removed the panel on the wall in the barn where the nuc bees swarmed from, and I now have a observation hive.
I sealed it with a glass window, with a blind I can open and close to watch them.
The old comb was huge, it goes from the floor up to the roof 16" x 3" space.
I pulled some old unused dried black comb out and more. a piece 48" x 12", like a wavy shield.
dirty...

the bees are so calm, no smoke or gloves, I did wear my jacket and during 3 hrs of watching only 1 bee pelted me in the face
so many baby bees, they hop around like little rabbits sometimes climb over my fingers, you can pet these guys for real.
lots of brood and capped brood, no queens, a few drones.
lots of pollen and I can see honey deeper inside.

I hope I can propagate these as gentle as they are.
Hope they are producers too.
Mite observations start in the nuc and topbar.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

3 queen cells 








can anyone advise how to deal with 3 queen cells?
should I just let nature take it's course?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

yes, stop messing with those little colonies, feed the crap out of them and let them build up. give them a little pollen sub too.


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## Insektenjack (Jan 11, 2016)

DavidZ said:


> 3 queen cells
> View attachment 24268
> 
> 
> ...


If you need those three for three different colonies, try this method from a Dutch beekeeper. 

1) Cut around the queen cell, when capped, in a triangular shape, leaving about 3 to 5 cells as buffer. 
2) Cut the same shape out of a frame from the colony where you would like to introduce the the queen cell.
3) Switch the pieces and attache them by pressing the endges onto each other with your thumb. 

*Careful*: Cut the comb with the queen cell in a lying/angled position. Then the larva has no chance of falling out of the jelly and into the top of the capped cell. 

Here the link for some pics:

http://www.bijenhouden.nl/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=30892&hilit=larven


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

I'm feeding them, they are all over the goodies.
Guess I'll wait this out and see what's up next week.

Thanks for the info on the queen relocation, I'd do that in a heartbeat if I had extra bees.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm not sure why you'd have split a swarm you just caught...?
Regarding the queen cells, when you split them what did you expect the side that didn't have a queen to do?


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

I wasn't trying to split, I wanted the swarm in the top bar, but I waited to long. 
what I've read is to kill all but 2-3 queen cells , but I'm not sure if I should THAT'S WHY I'm just letting nature do it's thing.
yes, I stressed the colony, I hope it will be ok, I'm just going to let them do their thing for the rest of year, observe and take notes.
keep a logbook on my blog. I've got a 10 frame hive waiting for the nuc colony when it's a bit stronger.
from today on it's wait and see...


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

DavidZ said:


> I wasn't trying to split, I wanted the swarm in the top bar, but I waited to long.
> what I've read is to kill all but 2-3 queen cells , but I'm not sure if I should THAT'S WHY I'm just letting nature do it's thing.
> yes, I stressed the colony, I hope it will be ok, I'm just going to let them do their thing for the rest of year, observe and take notes.
> keep a logbook on my blog. I've got a 10 frame hive waiting for the nuc colony when it's a bit stronger.
> from today on it's wait and see...




good idea, here in the midwest we are just over 4 months from starting to make winter bees, you may have even less time


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## Insektenjack (Jan 11, 2016)

Short Intro:

In the Netherlands, which is a little more Northern than Grants Pass, we make splits till end of May.
Sometimes a method called "one frame split" is used in the beginning/mid May, taking only one frame with about 1600 cm^2 (thats 0.15 sq inch) of capped brood with all the bees on it and feeding them the whole summer long. It is very stressful for the bees but it works fine for increasing your hive count. 

Thus: 

I don't know how the climate is in Grants Pass, but I think your bees should be fine, if you feed them sufficiently and don't weaken them any further.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Thanks Insektenjack. Our climate is real nice here. Spring is in full swing, flow starts real soon, it's dripping now, but in a few more weeks the raspberries and balckberries will be in full bloom, and the flow in full force. 
It's raining now, yesterday I hope we had our last frost, we have a chance for another, but usually this is it for the year. Gardens are green and Oct 30th is usually first frost. No snow, maybe 4cm at most 2-3 times in Jan when it is the coldest here.
I'm just going to feed these girls and watch for the rest of the summer.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

inspection day, the split from the nuc to this top bar is full of eggs, larvae, brood, bread, honey...good. 
I closed it right back up to not disturb it much.

The nuc frames I took the split from went into a 10 deep 2 weeks ago, and it looks like the queen hatched, 
there is a open an empty queen cell, it's almost gone, and the other qc's are not there anymore.
Not seeing the queen, I'm guessing she's with the boys somewhere. 
hopefully she comes back healthy.

one thing I did see was pollen in the old qc is this normal to use it this way?


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## Noahsoak (May 12, 2014)

DavidZ said:


> HI All,
> New here 1st question.
> 
> I have a barn with bees, and this year I've been watching them closely hoping to catch them when they swarm. I bought a nuc trap, set it up, and waited.
> ...


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

Noahsoak said:


> I just went thru this and am a novice beekpr. Have a tbh, built a 40 gallon volume trap box and put some top bars in. Trapped a swarm and gave them a bar of comb.... With a little honey on it and maybe some eggs. Left it alone fora week. Put the bars in the tbh, shook the rest in and replaced the trap in the same location. Tbh is about 100+ ft away. Put branches in front of tbh entrance. Next morning the fliers were very cold and clumped in the trap box. Dumped them in and that was it. Bees stayed put. I did give them a full bar of resources and capped brood from another hive.


40 gallons or 40 liters? 40 gallons would be 151+ liters which would generally be considered *way* to big. 

I'm a pre-novice (still trying to capture bees). Sounds like you're doing things OK. Are you planning on feeding sugar water?


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Both hives def had Queen cups hatch, when I checked 4 days ago neither hive had queens visible that I could find and activiity was just not like it is currently.
Now today in the lang there is s a bright orange Queen Bee, I couldn't find one or see one today in the top bar, I'm guessing she's there in that cluster of bees.
Will go back in and check both hives in another 10 days or so to see if laying is happening, right now lots of comb being drawn and pollen with nectar in both hives.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Bummer the Top Bar is quiet. No Bees. All that's there is 3 fully drawn out white wax combs with pollen stains.
There was serious robbing happening at the end on May, put screens on the entrance, and I thought that stopped it, then found a crack they used to enter on the back underside, sneaky sneaky.
I'm guessing it was robbed of all reserves and faded away.
I will make some some top bar nucs for next season and do this right the next time.

The Lang is doing great, 5 frames with about 75% bees.
Oh well, on to my other 4 hives to make some "one for you" nucs for next years increase.

Thread Over.


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## Noahsoak (May 12, 2014)

Maybe it's 40 liters. I watched outofbluesky video on YouTube for swarm traps. Made it like his.
I had a mess. Bees moved in, my bars were 1 1/2" wide- too wide.... And no guides. Had to cut out comb, as it was cross combed. Laid it up against back wall in my top bar hive with sticks in between the comb as in Les Crowders book, bees seem happy to stay in tbh. There was honey in some of comb, they moved it or ate it one of the two. I find it somewhat odd. They have one entrance hole open, 1" diameter. They have built a barrier at the entrance. There is now room for single bee entry. Apparently, they were having intruders..... Back to the trap. In 2 weeks they had built 5 combs and had capped honey. I found in my top bar hives, it seemed to be taking forever for them to cap. Observing the trap, I would say, keeping them a bit condensed is apparently, beneficial.


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## Noahsoak (May 12, 2014)

I didn't feed them as they had honey. However, this is a second swarm I am talking about at this point. The first swarm I did use a board an type feeder inside the hive.


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