# How to budget for feed



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Honestly, I would never feed for a spring build up unless it's warm early with nothing blooming. You can calculate this way, 25lbs into a 5 gallon bucket, filled to the 5g mark is just about perfect 1:1 by weight, so does 5 gallons of HFCS cost $12? That drum of syrup is costing you twice that if my math is correct. Did you have to feed this year, that's the important question, and for 30 nucs and 10 hives, you really don't need to think about a tank and pump for feeding unless you think you'll be going through 100 gallons a week or something.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I'm feeding to build them up early for lots of splitting


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

And I thought HFCS was supposed to be so much cheaper than sugar. I think that is what has me confused about this budget.


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## kramerbryan (Oct 30, 2013)

Is HFCS the same as 1:1 or is it more concentrated?


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

It's like 2:1 I believe. You dilute it in spring.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

HFCS is 77% solid. 270 a drum is expensive for hfcs. You will get better build up on 1:1 sugar.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

It must only be cheaper by the truckload. Sugar syrup looks like the way to go for now. I'd better start a workout routine. That's a lot of mixing and carrying.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

It all depends upon what you want your final outcome to be when you go into winter. However, it also depends upon when, what you use, and how strong you make those nuc's. For instance, if your plan is to allow those nuc's to make their own queens, after splitting them at 3 deep frames each, with no extra drawn comb, and done in say april, your looking at a totally different outcome than if you were to use already mated queens, or nuc's with all drawn comb. 

So here's what I do myself when dealing with my budget for feed. I plan for worse case scenario, and pray for the best with leftovers at the end for the next season. I manage my hives till I split them down into single 8 framers by the end of the year with queens that have already been mated. This occurs for me around July. Then I manage for swarming and make 5 frame nuc's for overwintering as well using more mated queens produced here. At the end of our season, if the goldenrod does anything, and the knotweed has produced, I end up feeding maybe 15 pounds each. However, my budget always has me ready to have to feed 50 pounds to the 8 framers, and 30 to the NUC's. I forgot to mention, at the start of each season, I decide how much "Expansion" that I want to do that year. This next season, I'll go from 26, to about 75.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

The worst case scenario number help, thanks. I'm going to be giving the nucs queen cells


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Using queen cells is only one part of the equation in your plan. That tells you that it will take about a month for that nuc to be ready to start drawing extra comb. Queenless bees, or hives with virgins in my experience doesn't seem to draw much comb. 

How many frames are you going to give each nuc? What time of year will you split? Will you split the main hives down to nuc's as well or split off just a couple at a time and allow the main hive to build back up? What's your nectar flows like there, heavy/light? All of those things can affect your plans and should be taken into consideration. A well thought plan will help to minimize failures and increase success of the hives. Something else you need to work into those plans is feeding of SUB. If you have a pollen dearth, and most of us do in summer, you will need good nutrition to keep the bees cranking along. I usually plan for about 3 pounds per hive so that I know I've got well fed winter bees. Also don't forget your mite treatments, they need to be in your budget as well. 

Once you have your plan in place, then figure out the amount of sugar you will need. Knowing where you want to be at the end of the season is key though, then change the plan to make it work out the way you want it to.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

cheryl1 said:


> The worst case scenario number help, thanks. I'm going to be giving the nucs queen cells


You haven't talked dates here but I'm thinking you can do a lot of what you are proposing on a natural honey flow. Early cells in your area, I would think would be around the time (late April too early May) that you might catch a dandelion flow and perhaps clover by mid June . Is there locust in your area? Also, when using cells, remember if there isn't an actively laying queen, feed demands are much lower. 
My experience is that feed costs can be difficult to project with so many weather and seasonal bloom variables.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

As Jim wrote, feed costs can be very difficult to project. April can be tricky in our area most years, but once you get into May, weather is normally more in your favor to making splits, but it all depends on the year. Mixing your own sucrose syrup may be the best approach initially. As for calculating costs, a five frame nuc packed solid with honey/sugar syrup should contain about 25-30 pounds of solids, add A LOT of cushion and assume little nectar flow and guess at maybe 50# of dry sucrose per nuc... Always plan for a worst case scenario and hopefully be pleasantly surprised. A 50# bag of sucrose is about $20 at Costco so... $20 x 30 nucs comes out to $600. 

IMO, feed will be the easy part, getting nucs made, comb drawn, cells raised and queens mated will be the hard part. Just make sure you are set up to feed the nucs efficiently.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Buying the bag sugar is your best option here, you need very little sugar, bag sugar keeps whereas HFSC does not. 
As for what you need...I could tell you what I use seasonally but that info is not relevant.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

JSL hit a point I was thinking about mentioning, I would really prioritize equipment and setting it up so you can feed efficiently. Hivetop feeders work very well for nucs. Don't get me wrong, frame feeders are good too, but you have to open the hives and they take up a frame space and in a nuc, frame space is very valuable. I build mine via FatBeeMan design, but have tweaked it a little to be more efficient but the bees use them very well, no drowning and you don't have to open the hive to feed and it acts as a great cover since it sits more like an inner cover than an ordinary migratory top design which is the most common with nucs. For 1:1, you really don't need to mix it. Warm water poured into the bucket will dissolve all sugar if done the day before, 2:1 is where you will probably have to do some mixing and heating and I know 5:3 was becoming more popular as it's easier to go into solution and just as effective. Also, I don't think there is a faster spring build up with feeding if your natural flows are ok, even in my area which is mediocre in spring, I don't see feeding building them up any quicker than they naturally do, but the trick would be a late winter feeding to get them building up earlier.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Cheryl1, a good keeper once told me " let the bees run the check book, don't let the check book run the bees" some of the best advise I ever got.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

The bees might do well with that but a business lives or dies with its bottom line


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well, I'm livin pretty good, so are the bees.


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## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

cheryl1 said:


> The bees might do well with that but a business lives or dies with its bottom line


No bees no business or weak hives are worthless for splitting pollination or honey production


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Agreed, but the purpose of a working budget is to expand in a way that allows for each hive to have the equipment and feed that it needs to be its best. I could maybe make 100 splits, but if I can't house them or feed them then I've wasted resources.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Obviously you can't make splits w/o equipment, so that's more of nothing wasted nothing gained situation, which is why I said focus on equipment, feeding might be something you need to deal with and you just have to eat that cost if it comes. Buy sugar when it's cheap, stockpile it, Lauri can post her picture of her pallets of sugar, it's the smart way to do it, can't really budget for it too effectively.


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

Cheryl1-
Im in a very similar situation as you both in size, goals and plans. 
Hope you take the following with the manner in which it is intended...Learned early as a kid on the farm/ranch that one simply cant quantify everything. Work professionally as a policy analyst/professor (previously a business operations analyst) and believe me, paired with my OCD I want to track everything...
Feed is one area that I have determined to not be worth fretting about especially at that size of apiary (with that many bees they will have other resources available and wont be dependent on feedings). Bags of sugar are plentiful and cheap. Currently paying $14 per 50# bag and have determined that I should keep 3 months worth on hand at all times and roll with the punches. Also worth noting: the amount of feed will depend on many more variables: type of bee, available seasonal forage, disease, other local bees, etc. Cant control it all, but we can give it a rough estimate for different stages.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Rough estimate was what I was looking for. Where do you get sugar at that price?


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

Just contacted several of the local food distributors. Most are doing the 25# bags which are more manageable. Several had good deals esp this time of year (tis the slow season for foodies). I'm planning to pick up 200# to have stock on hand but am not planning to go through more than 100# for the season while expanding and its only "if needed". Personally, Id rather not feed unless it becomes necessary for some reason but will be planning to do Ultra Bee sub (scored a good deal on 50# last week) patties.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I have decided to go with ultra bee this year too.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

You will have a lot on your plate in a season of rapid expansion. Spring feeding may cause you more trouble than benefit. In my area, Costco has sugar for ~$14/20kg(~50lbs)


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I really wish I had a Costco :/


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Something is off in your math. HFCS at Dadant is .30 (or less) a pound. thats 85% sugar. (mix of glucose and fructose) Sugar in bags is .50 a pound, and you have to mix. HFCS will crystallize, but in my experience it doesn't mold and spoil (ferment) nearly as fast or as bad as sugar. so pound for pound HFCS should be cheaper. 

That said if your math shows sugar, go with it.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

HFCS $280 for a 55 gallon barrel, so $5.09 a gallon. Diluted that makes it $2.55 per gallon of 1:1

8 pounds of sugar at .48 cents per pound makes 1.5 gallons of 1:1 at $3.84. So a gallon would be $2.56 

That's what I came up with. If I have a figure wrong please correct me. works out about the same but I would have a 6 hour drive to get a barrel and the sugar gets delivered to my front door for no extra cost.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Last load of sugar I bought in was at $.25 and last load of HFCS was $.17. 
Who is selling barrels of HFCS at $280 a barrel and that better be delivered.:scratch:
Really you need to find a new supplier. With those prices you have to budget.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The Honey Householder said:


> Last load of sugar I bought in was at $.25 and last load of HFCS was $.17.
> Who is selling barrels of HFCS at $280 a barrel and that better be delivered.:scratch:
> Really you need to find a new supplier. With those prices you have to budget.


55 at .17 per lb. This fall? I paid .21 in Sept.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

If you drive to Dadant in KY, the price will be .30 or less so 195 a barrel. I just look at the Cost per Lb with sugars. How you cut it is a moot point. HFCS is 75% solid sugar. so just compare that to your sugar price. how much you cut it doesn't matter its calories per lb.


remember that its 11.5 lbs per gallon so the drum will be 620-640lbs.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

195 is cheaper than Kelleys for sure. It was $270 a barrel from the sugar factory in Gary IN but had a 4 barrel minimum


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Talked it over with the bank (husband  ) and if I can get it for that lower price he's willing to take me to go get it. We'll take the farm truck so I'm not out any fuel costs, just driving time. And there are worse ways to spend a day than in a truck with my husband and no kids.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

be sure to call ahead, every once in a while they run out for a day or two.....and ask about drum price, sometimes its a bit less.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Thanks  now I just need to work on how to get it out of the barrel.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Elevate the drum, a simple siphon tube would work to fill buckets or something.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Keith Jarrett said:


> " let the bees run the check book, don't let the check book run the bees" some of the best advise I ever got.


:thumbsup: Im saving this one.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Jim that was a load of 76 last spring. We can always add water. Most the time we have all the tote set with 45 gallon of water in them before the truck fills them. Easy way of mixing.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Do you always mix it with water or just in the spring?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Yes, we fill all of our tanks and/or totes with 10% water before topping with syrup. I was pretty happy to see 55 drop from the upper .20's down to .21. Been a while since I have seen it in the teens.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

cheryl1 said:


> Thanks  now I just need to work on how to get it out of the barrel.


Important note, HFCS does degrade in quality over time, so if your using it within a month or so, your fine. If your looking further out, a pallet of slightly more expensive dry is your better bet. 
Budget in your figures the risk of spoilage


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Which is drier? The 77 or the 55? I haven't messed with HFCS at all yet


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Especially when your not completely sure what your feeding regime will be, having dry on the shelf buys you flexibility.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I think your confused Cheryl,. your choices are 42 or 55 for hfcs, both are 75% solids. If you go Dadant 55 is your only choice. The difference in 42 and 55 is the ratio of fructose


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

cheryl1 said:


> Which is drier? The 77 or the 55?


My interpretation of _Ian_'s "dry" suggestion is that he was referring to granulated _sugar_, not HFCS. Meaning that "dry" sugar has better longer term storage characteristics than any variety of HFCS does.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Thanks for clearing that up


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