# What's going on with Hopguard?



## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

Not sure but I know that many have been frustrated with the confusion of application. They did not make it clear that you need three successive applications. Maybe that has something to do with it. Not sure.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

I'm not sure, but Hopguard was given a Section 18 registration. Those emergency registrations must be renewed each year in each state. My guess is that the manufacturer simply isn't pursuing full registration, and might not be going through all the trouble and expense to get all the Section 18 registrations.

http://www.epa.gov/opprd001/section18/


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

Probably what Kieck says. Didn't make enough money in those states to renew possibly.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

Hopguard II is currently working its way through the registration process. It is supposed to last long enough to require only a single treatment. Early tests are quite encouraging. My guess is that is the reason the manufacturer didn't pursue getting full registration.


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

I tried it and it was totally ineffective. Mite counts before and after were unchanged. Maybe I had a bad batch but I won't be purchasing it again.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

I'm not sure how effective it was for me either, hopefully what's left in the hive will survive though.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

Would you give us some more info on that Tim? Temps, populations, number of treatments etc.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

you have to realize this treatment has to be used with little to no brood present,


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

A couple of comments at the Auburn Honey Bee Symposium last weekend were that it simply did not work, and thus...Hopguard II. 

Ed


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

It sure would be helpful when people report the results of using a treatment that they include the details of how they used it, temperature, length of application, number of applications, etc.

Up till now, I've been reading mostly favorable reports on Hopguard.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*



Ian said:


> you have to realize this treatment has to be used with little to no brood present,


I don't think this is the case Ian though it is surely must be more effective with less brood present. The company suggests it is effective even in mid summer. The recommended dosage is two strips per 10 frame deep box meaning a double would need to be split and two more double strips placed down below. Also perhaps a follow up treatment or two at intervals follow up may be needed. I think that's the problem with mid summer treatment of large hives full of brood. It gets to be an expensive time consuming operation. However in my mind it would be ideal in an early spring application to safely knock back mite numbers particularly in smaller nucs and also as a fall treatment once cluster sizes have dropped below mid summer levels.


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

3 hives that were crashing, 3 frames of bees with little or no brood and 30 count mite loads. After two treatments still 30 count mite loads. All three were ultimately robbed out and the mites were assuredly dispersed to other hives but was able to clean them up with oa dribble.


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

I probably need to add that the count was "sugar shake" on 200 bees done before, during and at the end of two weeks. I just didn't see any evidence that mites were being killed. Maybe I had a bad batch. Maybe it is working for others but I'm past the days of putting something in and assuming it works if the bees live. The actual count is the measure of effectiveness.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

I don't know Tim. I am not a spokesman for the product, nor have I ever even used it but I have talked to some that have used it with good success. I look at it as just another tool that will no doubt work better in some scenarios than others, not a panacea. The real attractiveness to me is the apparent safety of the product with no real rigid treatment windows or temperature requirements though I would be a bit apprehensive about using it in real high temps.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

http://www.betatechopproducts.com/products/varroa-mite-control

>>HopGuard® is most effective when used during the pre-pollination period (before sealed brood), mid-summer, and at the onset of winter brood development.<<
>>HopGuard® may be applied up to 3 times per year, even during honey flow.<<

Its like using an Oxalic treatment, or a flash formic, or sugar dusting,
from the results I have seen, it is very effective, but has to be done when no brood is present

I know beekeepers want to use it through out the summer, as they claim you can treat during a flow, but it doesnt mean it will be effective at that time


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

You may well be right Ian, sounds like you speak from some experience. Perhaps the whole idea of summer usage relates to the fact that it is safe enough to be used during a flow. How effective that treatment is may well be another story.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

oh no Jim I have no experience,
but ya, oxalic can be used during a flow too, but it doesnt work,
neither does formic, or any of the other knock down control methods

boy, if Hop Guard could produce a product that holds a longer treatment period, we would be in luck


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

Im very excited about this HopGuard product. They just need a bit more time to develop it. Its not available up here yet, but i have already found a place in my operating system to include it as a nuc knock down treatment. 

The key is easy on the bees and queens, and quick to use, strips are the way to go because doses can be adjusted according the the hive size


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

What is the mechanism of the effect? If it kills by volatile emissions in the hive atmosphere reaching a critical concentration, then it seems to me like factors such as hive volume, ventilation, and temperature - maybe even wind - during some period right after application would all come into play. If it works by direct contact and grooming then it seems like the current activity mode of the hive would be a factor. 

For example if the hive is busy trying to fight off robbing then they might not be doing a lot of grooming. I don't know.

Almost everyone (including me) makes decisions by anecdotal evidence - I tried it, it didn't work, therefore it doesn't work. We often feel like that should be pretty conclusive, but it's not really a good method of making a decision.

Hop guard isn't available in my state (at least I don't think it is) so I haven't tried it, but I sure do wish that it would fall out as another safe effective tool.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

Its a contact miticide


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

Hop Guard does have a place in my treatment schedule. You need to realize that it will not kill mites in capped brood cells. When the queen is laying, something like 90% of the mites present in a hive are in brood cells, from what I remember. Therefore, if you treat with HG during this period, 90% of your mites will survive. This is why you need multi-week treatments when the queen is laying.

However, if you treat in late fall or early spring you will have better results.

MY EXPERIENCE is that I had quite a large mite drop when I gave my hive a knockdown treatment before winter.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*



Bush_84 said:


> Not sure but I know that many have been frustrated with the confusion of application. They did not make it clear that you need three successive applications. Maybe that has something to do with it. Not sure.


I don't think BetaTec intended for Hopguard to be used in three successive applications so there was no attempt to instruct in this type of application. I believe the "three successive treatment" regimen was discovered by beeks. BetaTec only states that it can be used three times a year...their information says nothing about making three successive applications...it appears Mann Lake is the one recommending the three successive applications. Here is a thread from a year+ ago here on Beesource discussing the "progressive application" of Hopguard.... Progressive Hopguard Treatment

Ed


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

I have used it for two full treatments,one in the fall of 2011 and again last fall.I was pleased with the results both times.I judged my results by sticky board counts both before and after treatment.
A typical result was 6-12 mites before treatment and anywhere from 56 -246 the first morning after the first treatment with numbers dwindling over the next three days.Second treatment yielded far less mites and the third treatment could just as well have been skipped as the mite count was down to almost nothing.Our fall (October) temps are in the 80's most days with nights in the 60-70 degree range.There is always plenty of brood present at that time.
FWIW I had low mite counts this spring but put on grease patties anyway.There was almost no mite drop,3-8,from the patties.I still have not gotten around to doing a sugar roll to double check.
Take away from this is;try it.If it works for you use it.If not move on to something else.It's obvious from the postings that some of us get good results and some do not.


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

I've had excellent results using with Hopguard. The key has been pointed out many times. Three successive applications. I have had absolute success using it in this way. I've been using it at the end of summer when I pull my supers for the last 2 years. It has worked as well as anything I've tried. If I was treating a few hives I would continue using it but last year I treated 30 hives and it was expensive. 4 strips per hive X 3 treatments = 12 strips. Multiply that times 30 and it is not a cheap way to go. This year I'll be running around 50 hives and have no intention on using Hopguard for that reason alone. 
In my opinion it works really well as long as you understand that it will not help with capped brood (hence the multiple treatments). 

Mike


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*



gone2seed said:


> FWIW I had low mite counts this spring but put on grease patties anyway.There was almost no mite drop,3-8,from the patties.I still have not gotten around to doing a sugar roll to double check.
> Take away from this is;try it.If it works for you use it.If not move on to something else.It's obvious from the postings that some of us get good results and some do not.


Good report on the hopguard but I'm confused about what your purpose was for using grease patties as it seems that you are looking for measurable drops of Varroa mites from their use. I'm a newbee and may be very wrong, but aren't grease patties used for controlling tracheal mites rather than varroa mites? :s

Ed


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

It doesn't kill by volatile emissions it kills by contact, the bees have to spread it around. It does not kill mites in brood.

After studying the company's own data I was left unsure if one treatment was enough with brood present, the question was not properly answered on their site. So I emailed them & got an answer that dodged the question. So I emailed them back and got another answer that avoided the question. I was considering importing the product for re-sale so sent them more emails explicitly asking my question but no matter what, could not get a straight answer. They either did not know (unlikely), or were fudging.

So what's left is to read any reports on beesource. Many report a big mite drop so presumably it can work. Will one treatment do a whole brood cycle? Not according to the findings of most who have used it. Depending on the strength of the hive the cardboard soaked in the product is chewed out in a few days, then mite drop falls dramatically. So a repeat application weekly for a minimum of one brood cycle would seem nessecary.

That's the best I can figure it, based on info and lack of info from the company, and info from beesource members.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

So, other than taking the amt of brood into consideration are there other ways to improve the performance of a contact mitacide like hop guard?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

Well what I thought was a slow release gel. Or more complex, an auto dispenser.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

As I recall there was an individual on here who was going to try to recreate the basic hop guard formula as a byproduct of brewing beer. Apparently it would not be very difficult or expensive to manufacture with readily available ingredients. I did use it on 2 hives last year and it was very effective, and the bees were not adversely affected. Purchasing it as a powder you could mix up and dip your own cardboard strips in would seem to be ideal. It is not available to purchase here but my Dad lives in Florida so I shipped it there.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*



Intheswamp said:


> Good report on the hopguard but I'm confused about what your purpose was for using grease patties as it seems that you are looking for measurable drops of Varroa mites from their use. I'm a newbee and may be very wrong, but aren't grease patties used for controlling tracheal mites rather than varroa mites? :s
> 
> Ed


Depends on how you make your patties.The grease itself will cause a good amount of varroa drop due to the intense grooming the bees do to get rid of it.Add the three kinds of eo's that I do and it's even more effective.I believe it's the thyme oil that helps most with varroa.GP's were the only treatment I used until Hopguard came along.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

Riskybizz, you say the ingredient in the Hopguard is a byproduct of brewing beer, do you know for sure if you have to brew beer to get it, or can it be made outside of brewing beer? John


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

gone2seed, I'm getting a bit off topic here, but I know that some eo's are very potent. Which three do you use?

Is Florida still allowing Hopguard sales?

Ed


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*



jmgi said:


> Riskybizz, you say the ingredient in the Hopguard is a byproduct of brewing beer, do you know for sure if you have to brew beer to get it, or can it be made outside of brewing beer? John


From what I understand It's the beta acids in hops that causes the mite drop. There are beta and alpha acids in hops. One is for aroma and one is for taste. I forget which is which. Either way some species contain more of one than another. When brewing we basically boil the acids out of the leaves. For all I know they just toss a bunch of hops in water and boil it out. The consistency seems a bit thicker so maybe they add something or boil it down. 

It kind of makes you want to add hops to sugar syrup and see what happens doesnt it?

Edit-beta acids are the aroma producers in hops.


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## ubernerd (Jul 17, 2012)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*



jmgi said:


> Riskybizz, you say the ingredient in the Hopguard is a byproduct of brewing beer, do you know for sure if you have to brew beer to get it, or can it be made outside of brewing beer? John


No need to brew. The reason we "brew" with hops is to increase the extraction rate, but more importantly, it's to isomerize the alpha acids into their flavor-active form. That's not needed (or wanted?) here, so heating and boiling would be unnecessary.

That said, beta acids usually occur in significantly lower concentrations than alphas (as that is not what most hops have been bred for), and I'm not sure how much you'd need to have an effective treatment. My guess is that the people marketing this are doing solvent extractions on a massive scale and then pulling off the solvent (probably at low temp, high vacuum) to get a pretty pure and pretty concentrated product. Your chances of getting enough product at home (without boiling/concentrating it for a long time, and maybe harming the compounds in the process) are likely pretty small.

I could be wrong, and often am.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

I am not a brewer but I do recall reading somewhere that it was going to be attempted. I'll try to find the info again. Wouldn't a nice fine spray mist of hops (beta acids) and sugar water be a nifty way to inspect your hives in the spring.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

This is good reading...


http://www.keepthefaith1296.com/par...ructor--acari--varroidae-UE1DMzQ4NzAwMg==.htm


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Riskybizz, after reading that article I really think that there is quite a bit of potential here with Hopguard with virtually no effect on bees or queen. I have also heard that it is safe enough to be used with supers on, although being cautious as I am, I wouldn't use it except in near broodless periods of late winter or late fall. I think that the company who makes it will probably tweak things with the ingredients and method of delivery a couple times before they settle on something that works the best. Hopefully, the stuff will get much cheaper in the future as more people use it. John


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It's fairly safe for the bees except the ones that get slimed with product, they die and the stuff won't rinse off easily. I did my best to pull my queen before applying just so I wouldn't slime her on accident. The strips are drippy when you put them in. My bees reacted aggressively to adding the product to the hive and got very flighty as soon as I put the strip over the box to drop it in. It seemed to icnrease grooming behavior as well. I used it twice, 3 weeks each time. I don't have a sbb so I couldn't measure drop, but I didn't notice much reduction in mite load or dwv pressure. First treatment was in August, the second in October. The hive has barely survived the winter as I also did an OA treatment in November. Very similar to what Michael B saw in his hopguard treated hives. Population was strong in November, then noticed a huge decrease in cluster size the first cold snap, hive had a deep of honey over a a backfilled brood nest witih a bottom box of pollen.

Looking at some of the older threads on Hopguard to find what the product is called from the brewery, it's Potassium Based Isomerized Kettle Extract (PIKE)


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

JRG13, the messiness of installing the product is something that maybe needs to be addressed by the company, I certainly would be afraid of having the stuff drip all over the queen, which is a distinct possibility seeing as how you insert them over a couple different frames in the middle of each brood box.

Not having a sbb with a sticky board would make it hard to say whether or not the Hopguard treatments helped or not, the dwv wouldn't improve anyway due to the treatment not affecting the infested brood. Maybe you still had alot of brood rearing going on when you treated, therefore most of the mites would be in the brood. John


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## dnichols (May 28, 2012)

I actually called hopsteiner last year and tried to order some PIKE. As soon as they heard I was a beekeeper they said no go. Hopguard has a patent on the use of hop extract for beekeeping. Very sad. Its a wonder the company survives when 35 out of 50 states prohibit it. Back to my original question. If it is so safe why are states balking at it?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I imagine its the cost associated with registration ,


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

It has worked well for me in the late fall and early spring season when choices are limited. There is't any brood rearing at that time of the year so you can really knock 'em back then


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

Also I think that a section 18 exemption has to be requested annually in each state and some of them take longer than others. Check back later - I think most states had it last year


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

dnichols, looks to me like you can buy all the hop extract you want if you google it, now I don't know if its the right stuff for treating bees or how much of it you need or if you need to dilute it down to a certain percentage, but its available to anyone. There must be someone here that is smart enough to figure out which extract you need and how to properly use it. It's got to be cheaper than getting it from Mann Lake. John


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I posted a question to Jim Tew via his website yesterday asking him what his thoughts were regarding Hopguard and "progressive treatment". At first my message was "pending moderation" but now it doesn't show at all when I log on which makes me wonder if it will be answered or not. If I hear back from him I'll post what I find out.

Ed


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

For anyone interested, here's the international publication of the patent application:

Please note that this is not an issued patent, just his international application.

http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/...0000019487506&name=(WO2012170420)COMPOSITIONS AND METHODS FOR CONTROLLING A HONEY BEE PARASITIC MITE INFESTATION&woNum=WO2012170420&prevRecNum=1&nextRecNum=2&recNum=1&queryString=FP%3A%28WO2012170420%29&office=&sortOption=&prevFilter=&maxRec=1


The international search report cited "prior art" of US20080026673A1. That is an interesting US Publication of a patent application for the use of hops in controlling varoa.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

Here's an earlier US Patent . . . interesting

http://www.google.co.jp/patents?id=DLbSAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&hl=ja#v=onepage&q&f=false


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Well, I never did get a response from Jim Tew. I guess it's not high on the priority list. :scratch:

Ed


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> Also I think that a section 18 exemption has to be requested annually in each state and some of them take longer than others. -the doc


Section 18 registrations are "emergency registrations." They are intended to allow use of a product for a year in cases where no other options are readily available while the product goes through the process of registration. When I've talked to some of the people in the agencies that register pesticides for use, they all seem to find it uncommon and unusual that any product would be sold for more than a year or two in succession under only a Section 18 exemption.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

dnichols said:


> If it is so safe why are states balking at it?


I attended our state associations meeting last weekend, and we were addressed by our state apiarist (inspector - Mike Studer) who engaged the State Apiculturist (John Skinner - Head of Entemology @ UT) in a floor discussion during which someone asked what was up with hopguard - "when will it be approved in TN?" The answer given by Mike Studer was "It never will be, because it doesn't work." Mr. Skinner seemed to concur. His words, not mine - I don't know for sure, but it sounded like it might be somewhat opinion based - but those are the two opinions that matter most in TN.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

That's an interesting and unfortunate exchange. Hopguard is a tool to control mites and it's a very benign product. It works well in some scenarios and not so well in others. To simply state that "it dosent work", in my humble opinion, does a real disservice to Tennessee beekeepers.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> ... but those are the two opinions that matter most in TN. -David LeFerney


Hmmm... I'm not discrediting the two named in the exchange, and I don't know the details of how pesticide registration works in Tennessee. I believe in most states, it works something along these lines:

A company develops a pesticide. They register their pesticide with the EPA. That registration costs, and, as part of the registration, the pesticide is studied for risks associated with using it.

After that, it is registered by the company that makes it in each state where they want to sell it and where it can be legally used. This costs, too, although the amount in some states is lower than what I would have expected without some background knowledge.

I don't know that a product must be shown to be "effective" to be registered. Based on the list of some of the products that are fully registered for use in some crops, I would argue that a number of products that do not really work currently have full registration.

Registration of a product is usually through a regulatory agency separate from a university and not through the apiary inspection office.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Yeah, I don't really know how it works in TN either, and I don't really have an opinion about hopguard - on account of I've never had the opportunity to try it. I'm pretty sure both of these guys official capacity is through the TN Dept of Agriculture.

I would say this though - If something is shown not to work in it's intended purpose I would just as soon not spend my money on it. Not saying that hop guard doesn't work, just that I actually do appreciate the state NOT allowing something to be sold for a specific purpose just because it is safe - distilled water would be *safe*. I *would* like for that determination to be made using scientific method.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

My understanding is that it's usually just a matter of the state filling out the proper paperwork. A request from a beekeeping organization within the state would, most likely, help greatly. However if the state authorities feel its not a worthwhile product it may be a bit more difficult.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I haven't tried it either. I don't believe that the professionals who handle registering pesticides in the government agencies let personal opinions about how well a product might work affect decisions regarding registration. If a product is not all that effective but carries a great deal of risk with its use, the lack of efficacy might hinder its registration, I suppose.

After all, _Varroa_ are reported to be largely resistant to fluvalinate at this point. That means that fluvalinate is no longer an effective treatment if that resistance is accurate. Yet fluvalinate remains a fully-registered pesticide, still labeled for use in bee hives.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> My understanding is that it's usually just a matter of the state filling out the proper paperwork. -jim lyon


I'm fairly certain it works the other way. The company that intends to sell the product seeks registration with the state. The company has to fill out the paperwork, pay the registration fees with the state, and get it accepted by the state.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

You may be right. I think, my confusion is that once a state has received a section 18 for a particular product then the onus is on the state to refile for that product each year.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I believe that's right for Section 18s, Jim. I've been told repeatedly that Section 18s are intended to be temporary. They are for emergency use, in a suddenly-changed situation. Renewing such an exemption year after year after year doesn't seem to be the intent of the designation.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

Here in PA the company sought the approval last year. The dept of ag went to the state beek association to ask if the assoc. thought it beneficial that it be approved. I was personally disappointed that the president at the time said no and that the reasons were that we should all just be treatment free and not need anything else other than what we have. I think each state's dept. of ag would have a different level of expected input from its state apiarist or association provided they have them, so the comment from Mr. LaFerney that those two opinions matter most in TN are not surprising to me.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I think you might be right on a Section 18, libhart. Why doesn't the company seek full registration?


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> I attended our state associations meeting last weekend, and we were addressed by ...<snip>... in a floor discussion during which someone asked what was up with hopguard - "when will it be approved in TN?" The answer...<snip>...was "It never will be, because it doesn't work." <snip>...seemed to concur. His words, not mine - I don't know for sure, but it sounded like it might be somewhat opinion based - but those are the two opinions that matter most in TN.


Wow, your post gives me a deja'vu feeling...this exchange parallels one held on the floor of the main lecture hall at the Auburn University Honey Bee Symposium a couple of weeks ago. Interesting.

So we've got authorities(?) in two adjoining states saying (apparently emphatically) that hopguard doesn't work. Yet we have beekeepers reporting that it has worked well for them. At the risk of being redundant I'll say once again..."interesting". 

Ed


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The company's literature may be at fault. 

Last time I looked (which was a while ago), it did not make clear repeated applications are needed if there is brood in the hive.

So, if somebody took that at face value, and treated a varroa infested hive that had brood just once, they could come back later and test for mites and conclude it didn't work.

During my own communications with the company on this issue I felt they were being deliberately evasive, there was just no way they would give me a yes or no answer as to wether repeat applications are needed in a hive with brood. Kinda felt they wanted me to "just buy it". 

If this has resulted in important decision makers now feeling the product doesn't work, then hopguards own obtusification has come back to bite them in the butt.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

I believe that Randy Oliver states that if a lot of brood is present you need to do Hopguard applications for three consecutive weeks for it to be very effective. It does work when there is little brood. I plan to use it when there is little, to no, brood.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Oldtimer, you're probably correct that hopguard's own communication may be causing them problems. I wonder if they are hesitant to talk about using hopguard in ways not included on the label due to legalities? Regardless, it appears that the treatment works with some tweaking and is relatively safe and non-toxic (to us and the bees). If this is the case then the bees and beekeepers in states where it's not allowed are losing out on a possible good thing. 

At this year's or last year's association meeting in Montgomery it was stated that we only have a couple of section 18 permits that the apiary division can use and that they want to use them wisely. I was looking at the EPA website and it looks like the two section 18 permits are for coumaphos for varroa and shb. Are the permits for a "type" of pesticide or for a "brand" of pesticide? If the permits are for "type" then it seems they could do away with one of the coumaphos permits and use the other one for something else. Looking at other section 18 permits for other crops I see duplicate chemicals for them, too. I'm just trying to understand this a bit...anybody want to explain how this works...in regards to type or brand? :s

Ed


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Someone posted earlier on this thread that they heard something about work being done on a Hopguard 2, has anyone else heard anything about that? John


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

I suspect that it would work similar to the new Apivar, which also works via contact. Some sort of slow release strip that sits in the hives for 4-6 weeks.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

That may have been me that mentioned a possible Hopguard II earlier. It was mentioned by one of the authoritative figures in one of the main meetings at the Auburn symposium. Seemed there were "chuckles" or something between the speakers while talking about hopguard so it may or may not have been said in seriousness. It seemed to be somewhat of a strange exchange...

Ed


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

jmgi said:


> Someone posted earlier on this thread that they heard something about work being done on a Hopguard 2, has anyone else heard anything about that? John


It is expected to be available by mid-summer. It's anyone's guess in what states that might be. It's hoped to be a long lasting enough strip that would work as a "one and done" treatment even with brood in the hives. We'll see.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Are they going to pursue full registration on this one, do you know, Jim? Seems odd to me to be building a business and developing a line of products like this that rely on emergency exemptions. I guess if it works, keep doing it, but it suggests to me that the product is only intended to be on the market for a few years.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

For someone who has never treated their hives, that being me, I am looking forward to using something that is not a chemical treatment and evidently does not hurt the bees. Although it is expensive I could justify using it on my hives as I'm not in the hundreds of hives yet. From the majority of reports it does seem effective if used when there isn't much brood, now if it could only be effective against mites in the unsealed brood that would be even better, although that may be stretching it. 

I have been waiting and hoping for something like this to come along because I am so dead set against treating, but I have begun to realize I need to do something soon because I am beginning to see hive collapse with high mite loads this year after many years of just getting by. John


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Kieck said:


> Are they going to pursue full registration on this one, do you know, Jim? Seems odd to me to be building a business and developing a line of products like this that rely on emergency exemptions. I guess if it works, keep doing it, but it suggests to me that the product is only intended to be on the market for a few years.


I don't know but I would assume so. My information comes from a presentation given at the most recent AHPA convention. The impression I was left with is that they are currently in the registration phase as they indicated all their testing results have been very encouraging and they mentioned availability perhaps by mid summer 2013.


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## chickenia (Apr 13, 2012)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

If it did not work, my girls weren't told....they are doing great! i gave three consecutive weekly treatments last fall ending by mid October - temps in the mid 60's to mid 70 degrees. On the last application I just left the strips in. I am in the Appalachian Mountains and we have a bit more of cold weather to go I am pretty sure. Though today is in in the mid forties and they are pretty active. I will use the treatment again in the spring per directions and see how it goes....so far, very pleased.


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## chickenia (Apr 13, 2012)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

Are they actually now making available soon HopGuard II?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Does anyone have experience with hopguard on first year hives that started as packages?


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Not packages, but I started two first year nucs that I purchased. They were treated in the spring with Hopguard and by myself in the fall. Both overwintering well.


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## dnichols (May 28, 2012)

*Re: What's going own with Hopguard?*

I cannot purchase in CT but I had a friend from MA give me some last fall and I used the strips in three of my production hives. All three are still alive and it's been a long cold winter! I just checked the Mann Lake site and Hopguard is still not available in MA again this year or CT. New York is though! Its getting closer.


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## chickenia (Apr 13, 2012)

This is my first full season and over-wintering 2 hives that started as packages, and one split, I treated all three in the fall and they are doing great!!!!! I followed the directions on the package and it was easy  So far, so good.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I've been following this thread and it looks to me like the vast majority of people who have used Hopguard have positive things to say about it. I hope the good results with the product indicate that we may finally have a non-chemical treatment that will keep the mites under control and is fairly easy to apply. John


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

a post on bee-l from canada's Medhat Nasr, I'm not sure what the second 40% kill means for the method most people are using here ie 3 times at one week interval. 

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1302&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=188880

Peter and others: I have a student just defended her M. Sc. last week. One experiment testing HopGuard showed that the efficacy is about 40% mite kill in the fall with a single application. Repeated experiment with 3 applications in the spring once every week yielded same efficacy (40%). Bees clean up and chew the strips within 4-5 days. Kill was high within 1-3 days max. HopGuard has potential if the application method modified. 

Medhat 

Dr. Medhat Nasr 
Alberta Provincial Apiculturist 
Pest Surveillance Branch 
Research and Innovation Division 
Agriculture and Rural Development 
17507 Fort Road NW 
Edmonton, AB T5Y 6H3 Canada


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I did not know they were working on a longer lasting strip. I think if they could come up with one it would be a very good product. I have used the product and that is really the only complaint I have is it just does not last long enough. You get a good mite drop the first couple days then its done. If they could get it to last just half a brood cycle that would be a big improvement. Then just two treatments should knock the mites back pretty good. 

One good thing about hopsgaurd is it a contact miticide so you don't have to worry about temperature. Formic has such a narrow temp range that it is hard to find a good time of year to use it here in the S.E.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Just wondering if the mites could ever become immune to Hopguard, I understand that they have already become that way with some other earlier treatment products? John


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Section 18 approval has been granted for NY.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Organisms face two possibilities when faced with a selective pressure: adapt ("become resistant") or go extinct. Hopguard would be a selective pressure.

In general, the stronger a selective pressure, the more rapidly adaptation spreads through the species. Or the more quickly a species goes extinct. More people using a product more often puts a greater selective pressure on the species if that product causes harm to the target species.

Extinction is the certain end to each species, just as death is the certain end to each individual.

Given what I know and expect of _Varroa_, I doubt Hopguard will cause the extinction of them.


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

i think the method of action is related of the permeability of the exoskeleton of the mite (carapice?) is more permeable to acidic compounds than the honeybee and lowers the pH of the mite to lethal levels. The principle is the same as why organic acids such as formic and oxalic also work. I have heard a theory that for the mite to develop resistance to acids and pH changes would substantial and essentially would no longer be a varroa mite.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

the doc said:


> i think the method of action is related of the permeability of the exoskeleton of the mite (carapice?) is more permeable to acidic compounds than the honeybee and lowers the pH of the mite to lethal levels. The principle is the same as why organic acids such as formic and oxalic also work. I have heard a theory that for the mite to develop resistance to acids and pH changes would substantial and essentially would no longer be a varroa mite.


It makes sense to me. We have never noticed resistance using any of these compounds.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> I have heard a theory that for the mite to develop resistance to acids and pH changes would substantial and essentially would no longer be a varroa mite. -the doc


Such a theory did not come from an evolutionary biologist, I'm confident. Evolutionary biologists are the ones who study such sorts of things.

I've heard similar beliefs expressed plenty of times before this. In my opinion, some folks like to believe such things to reassure themselves. What ends up happening remains to be seen, of course, but bear in mind that a number of organisms have adapted to survive in very acidic environments. If the mechanism of effect is what you describe, a simple mutation to reduce the permeability of the exoskeleton, or maybe just selection of the mites with the thickest cuticle on their exoskeletons, might be enough to provide "resistance" to such a treatment.


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

No I definitely agree with you and i am certainly no expert. One encouraging sign is that there is a fairly prolonged history of acid use without obvious resistance to it.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Kieck, I'm not a scientist, so its hard for me to understand how selective pressure (Hopguard) on the mite will cause it to adapt by changing itself physiologically. I see it this way, in any species there are individuals that have subtle differences genetically, some of which may make it weaker against an outside pressure, and some that are stronger against it. More people suddenly using Hopguard and using it often I would think should have a devastating effect on the mite population in general from the start, as the mites are killed by it almost instantly upon contact. It does not appear when looking at the effects of other acids on the mite, that they have a resistance to them, and so I think one could safely say that Hopguard is capable of killing any varroa mite out there as long as they come into direct contact with it, the key being contact. With the current method of delivering Hopguard to the colony, there is no way to have 100% contact, one reason being the product evidently drys out quickly on the strips, and mites on the brood are unaffected. I agree that extinction is not possible here, but I do see where Hopguard can do significant damage to the mite population, especially if the product is improved to have a longer effective period in the hive. John


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

actually extinction is not impossible. that has been proven. it is just not common or likely.

Part of the problems is that Hopguard or any other pesticide may be lethal quickly at the adequate dosage. This is not the cause of the problem obviously since dead mites do not reproduce. the problem is in the proper dosage. To often the dosage is improper, both form improper use or in every single case it is used the drying up as it is described above. A dosage dwindles. it is only proper when it is first applied. it then had a period it is improper. and it is here that the problem begins if the pesticide is not 100% effective. that means it is lethal to 100% of the mites 100% of the time. This can make proper application more complicated. more complicated increases the use of it improperly. Improperly does not kill mites it exposes them. exposure causes immunity. Only death prevents immunity. and yes a single organism exposed will develop immunity. it is not a genetic thing. it is a biological resistance that develops in an organism in it's life span. It will now reproduce and there is nothing that will kill it. Not even a proper dosage. That is the general picture anyway.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Daniel Y, you are correct, there is a proper dosage that kills the mites but does not damage the bee, hopefully. What you say sounds like a logical progression of thinking, but as I said earlier I'm no scientist, therefore I can't dispute much of anything you said, you could be entirely correct on the matter. I hope that your last couple sentences don't become reality, or we will not have gotten anywhere. John


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## chickenia (Apr 13, 2012)

Would there be an added benefit to rotate treatments, ex: Hopguard AND Apivar? Three treatments a year for Hopguard, instead...use Apivar for the second treatment with the added benefit that it lasts longer???? Just wondering here


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I dont pretend to understand exactly how resistance works in a mite. Surely every type of treatment that we use results in some sort of resistance mechanism within a mite at some unknown rate. Whether it be behavioral, physical or something else. What hasnt entered the discussion, though, are the resistance capability and adaptability that bees are developing at the same time. It is clear to me that varroa dont have the same impact on hives that they first did over 20 years ago.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Yea Jim, I just wish the bees resistance capability would hurry up a bit, I'm running out of time here. John


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

Haraga said:


> Does anyone have experience with hopguard on first year hives that started as packages?


Last year was my first year as a beek with a first year hive started from a package. In July I had 24hr mite drop counts in the hundreds, I treated with three successive Hopguard treatments. After each treatment there were more mites than I could count on the mite boards, the hive really took off. A week after the last treatment I got a zero mite count. The hive was thriving, then swarmed in October. (due to rookie management).
But overall I was satisfied with Hopguard and plan on treating my surviving overwintered hive (that a bought as a Nuc and never had any mite issues) soon.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I'd like to touch on the adaptation or evolution of resistance again, hopefully briefly.

First, even the most effective treatments are not absolutes. They often list something like, "97 percent kill," or similarly high percentages. What that means is that some do survive it. If they survive for a reason other than random chance, "resistance" is born.

That resistance may come from many forms. An animal that detects an impending selective force, dodges it, and returns later could be said to have adapted to that particular pressure.

Now, a treatment that kills 99 percent of the pest is a stronger selective pressure than one that kills 50 percent of the pest population. A treatment that kills 50 percent and is used in 10,000 hives is a stronger selective pressure than a treatment that kills 50 percent and is used in 1000 hives. Remember that the stronger the selective pressure, the more rapidly resistance (or extinction) should be expected.

Alternating products reduces the spread of resistance because it reduces the selective pressure of a single form of treatment (unless cross resistance or similar factors come into play).

Keep in mind in all of this that we are discussing a specialized parasite that already demonstrated the genetic and behavioral plasticities to shift to another host species. That provides evidence of the mites' abilities to adapt and evolve.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Whatever mite control material you use follow the label directions. They are there for a reason. If Hopgaurd calls for three applications, don't put on one and then something different, and then Hopgaurd again. It is a good idea to use one miticide and then the next time you treat use something else the next time you treat.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Kieck, what host did the varroa mite originate on before the European honeybee? John


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Apis cerana and Apis dorsata.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

_Apis cerana_ was the host. Once _A. mellifera_ was introduced the region in Southeast Asia where the eastern honeybee lived, the mites made the jump to a new host.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

In regards to mite extinction....who's gonna treat the ferals?

Ed


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## dnichols (May 28, 2012)

Good thought Ed. I guess we all need to start bee lining.


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## ky_mike (May 9, 2011)

Add me to the list of people that thinks hopguard works. I only had 2 hives at the time, but I started this thread when I used it because I think it was fairly new and wanted to pass on the information to people.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?269942-My-Hopguard-experience

I've only been beekeeping for 3 years now, but can attest that it saved my hives. I need to update that original thread, but the hives are doing great and they have only been treated once (3 weeks in succession) and it was during the early summer. 

I will be up to around 20 hives this year and do agree that it will probably be expensive to use it again if I need to, but I am excited to see the HopguardII may be in the works. It is also messy, but like I said, it saved my hives.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

a follow up question on bee-l about how the 40% mite kill by hopguard was figured. 







http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1303&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=81393






Sorry Allan:
I guess me being slow!
It is calculated after the three treatments of Hopguard. Then we applied Apivar as a finishing treatment. All collected mites were then counted and calculated based on the relative efficacy to Apivar. The efficacy was 40% relative to Apivar.

We have also calculated the washed 300 mites / hive before and after the three Hopguard treatments. The efficacy was 55% reduction of mites on bees.

Before you hit me with another question.

Mites doubled their number in the control without treatment over the treatment period based on collected killed mite after using the finishing treatment. For the 300 bees washed bees the mite % infestation went down by about 20%. Keeping in mind the bee population doubled during spring.

For fall the story is different. Mites tripled in the untreated control based on collected dead mites from the finishing treatment. In the washed 300 bees the mite increased 7 times in the untreated control during the treatment period.

Allan A lot of mite counting, we suffered from nightmares (mitemares) when you think about it.

Randy: by the way regardless you try to use harmonized groups of certain percentages of mite infestation and colony strength, bees don't very much follow rules and don't like to follow what researchers like to do with them. They are wired differently.

Medhat 

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1303&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=83084It is calculated after the three treatments of Hopguard. Then we applied Apivar as a finishing treatment. All collected mites were then counted and calculated based on the relative efficacy to Apivar. The efficacy was 40% relative to Apivar.

We have also calculated the washed 300 mites / hive before and after the three Hopguard treatments. The efficacy was 55% reduction of mites on bees.

So, if I have this right, You treated on group of hives three times then dropped the remaining mites with Apivar.

You also had controls which were not treated during the test, but got the same Apivar treatment as you used for finishing the test hives.

You assumed that you dropped essentially all the mites with Apivar and compared the drop from the test hives to the control count and found the Hopguard hives had 60% as many mites and reported this as a 40% efficacy?

Is that right?

Almost there! Yes Sir you are right... Love the way you simplified it.


Medhat


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