# How Many of you have successfully kept TF from package bees?



## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

This is obviously an anecdotal question, but I am genuinely curious as to who (if anyone) has been able to sustain a colony started from package bees for 3 years or more by being strictly Treatment Free.

Please reply if you fall in these categories:

Only in the past 15 years.
Only in locations where Varroa Destructor is prominent.


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## spencer (Dec 7, 2004)

I replace my queens every year and let the colony remain broodless until they make another one. I haven't bought a package in 7 years. Does that count?


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

spencer said:


> I replace my queens every year and let the colony remain broodless until they make another one. I haven't bought a package in 7 years. Does that count?


That depends. If by "replacing the queen" you are in fact letting the exisitng colony make a new one, then I would say yes. If you are introducing a completely new queen from another gene pool I would say no.


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## spencer (Dec 7, 2004)

I let them make a new one.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

spencer said:


> I let them make a new one.


What's the benefit of doing this? Just a brood break?


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## spencer (Dec 7, 2004)

Read what Mel Disselkoen says on this:
http://www.mdasplitter.com/

start with Autumnal Equinox 2011


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

Oh I see, you're making splits. You're not actually pinching a queen and replacing her.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Some of the packages started surviving once I got on small cell. Before that none of them did. The problem was still winter and the wimpy packages. The ones that didn't move next door do to poor queens would do great right up until winter. When requeened, either with my queens or by their own supersedure, the success rate was much higher.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Solomon Parker claimed that of the origional 20 packages he bought, one of them survived eight years.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

16 yrs TF , small cell no treatments at all. I brought in 2 queens from a 12 yr TF beekeeper they were full blow pms symptoms by end of July and gone by August. Buyer beware on claims. I have more to say on this but am at work and will do so later.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

Clayton Huestis said:


> 16 yrs TF , small cell no treatments at all. I brought in 2 queens from a 12 yr TF beekeeper they were full blow pms symptoms by end of July and gone by August. Buyer beware on claims. I have more to say on this but am at work and will do so later.


Please do! This sounds interesting.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I suspect much of the success of TF is open mated queens picking up enough genes before they are over run with mites. Depending on a lot of factors, they may have up to three year to get enough genes.

Might also be why Mel's system works. Continually splitting, open mated queens. 

Would also explain why some can't do it, and TF traits can fade in areas.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Didn't beeweaver apiaries get about 10 % survival when they first started the TF approach. Probably better now. 

But why? I wouldn't bring in a package just because bees from big commercial operations have been exposed to everything out there. TF in this context brings out latent infection.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

I just ended my first year. I started with 3 packages. One starved (my fault). The second had a drone-laying queen. The last remaining one went into fall a strong hive. I didn't learn about the big negatives of package bees until too late for this year. That being said, going forward I will only repopulate my empty hives with either a swarm, split(from the last good hive), or a TF nuc (possibly Russian).


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## Montyb (May 27, 2013)

We have 4 hives. #1 we have had for four years split it two years ago and that split hive#2 is doing great. #1 requeened itself this past spring. Bought another package two years ago hive #3 is surviving great. Then we caught a swarm early summer that built up and doing good. Have never treated for anything no problem. We live in upper Michigan with below zero winters that go for 5 to 6 months.


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## tracey kindall (Sep 13, 2016)

Hi Monty - how do you overwinter your bees in Marquette? I too am in a very cold climate and in the midst of my first winter with bees. We've had some below-0 nights recently and I am very fretful. Thanks,

-- Tracey in Idaho


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## Montyb (May 27, 2013)

Tracey. I made a insulated cover under the other insulated cover and we wrap hive in 3/4 or 1" pink solid insulation.






bad picture were in a snow storm at the moment. Monty


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

To continue the base of some of my TF free stock were from package bees that were from Caucasian decent. Acquired from Bolling been apiaries when Bill Gafford was just retiring. Unfortunately these bees are no longer available. Long creek apiaries mention they bought out Bill's bees I recommend not pursuing any bees from them. Others could comment why here. So from a small breeder with good stock I thick some good stock could be acquired to work towards TF. It can be a long difficult path to follow. You need to be able to raise queens and select bees. Don't expect to just buy TF bees. After 16 yrs I'm changing some tactics. I'd try someone like Sam Comfort for packages not just run of the mill treated package dealers that's a recipe for disaster. Then work your stocks up from there. Don't do the same thing if you lose 90% for 5yrs. Change up what your doing step back and be honest with yourself.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Clayton Huestis said:


> After 16 yrs I'm changing some tactics.


16 years is a really good track record ch. can you elaborate on how you are changing tactics?


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Well first of all I'm moving away from small cell. But after 16 yrs using wax 4.9 cell size foundation the bees still struggle drawing it. I think their saying they want something bigger. I didn't go the plastic route, I wanted real picture. Not tossing my combs just not caring anymore. I will probably use a 5.1 _5.2 sizing but I'm done measuring. Also I will be using comb honey tactics as a brood break. Every colony will be headed by a young queen every year instead of every 2-3 yrs as I used to. I will oav treat if needed no more bond method. Allot less grafting mostly as I have much less time now. Possibly select for allogrooming, mite biting trait. Simply put I'm not satisfied at this point and am changing the game a bit. I still think TF and self sustaining beekeeping should be a goal aimed for and I will continue in that direction. Might go back to some old methods I'm leaving my options open.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood clay, and thanks for the reply. i went back and reread your posts, sounds like you've been milling your own smaller cell wax foundation.

by 'not satisfied' do you mean in terms of survival rate, honey production, something else?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Clayton Huestis said:


> after 16 yrs using wax 4.9 cell size foundation the bees still struggle drawing it. I think their saying they want something bigger. I didn't go the plastic route, I wanted real picture. Not tossing my combs just not caring anymore. I will probably use a 5.1 _5.2 sizing but I'm done measuring.


In fact you are in good company, Michael Bush has moved from strict 4.9 sc, to natural comb and letting the bees build whatever they want.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Queen breeders (and hence package producers) are able to select from thousands of candidates for breeders.
A sideliner such as Solomon Parker entered the breeding season with six (6) colonies.

Research on selection for VSH shows that unless continually reselected from a sufficiently large population the trait submerges. Consider this illustration (one of the co-authors of this study is Dr. S Martin). Breeders selected for high freeze-kill removal produce daughter colonies intermediate to the trait. The F1 expression is high-normal. The purpose of the paper was describing explicit selection of patri-lines (ie drone lines) from within a breeding queen for maximal selective advantage -- and they contrasted this is the poor selective inertia and resolution of using random patrilines. 



Source:
Multi-level selection for hygienic behaviour in honeybees
JA Pérez-Sato 1 , N Châline 2 , SJ Martin, WOH Hughes and FLW Ratnieks 3
Heredity (2009) 102, 609–615

The actual imperatives for bee breeding have been replaced by an ideological (but false) construct that "local survivors" must be better than "puppy mills". This talking point makes for good bee lecture outrage against the "empire", but is fundamentally a dead end. 

The truth lies in the middle -- you must be able to select from a sufficiently large population to encounter rare traits, and must control the mating to retain the 2nd deviation traits.

Whether highly selected (2nd deviation) bees have any survival advantage over the normative population is further highly debatable. It is the exact corollary of the "puppy mill" argument. In a small population (or in a population picking only a small number of breeders) diversity (and hence the raw materials of selection) will be lost. The bees have "known" that fact evolutionarily since the beginning of eu-sociality -- which is why such abstruse traits like sex locus incompatibility and polyandry are essential to the species.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Squarepeg I have made lots of foundation over the years. My mill does not imprint sidewalls to the cells so the bees can make whatever size cells they want s o can't be force to small cell or tricked easily. After 16 yrs I'm just not seeing it to my liking. Survival rate is around 20%loss. Honey production is about 60 lbs. I'd like to see double that like before I went TF. I want to see bees like when I was eight going out to help my dad. The bees just seem different now. Anyway something to work towards.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

yeah, if you are just across the river from mp then it does sound like there's some room for improvement. thanks again for sharing and i'm looking forward to following how things progress for you clay.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

--


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

SP been adding mps stock to mine every 5yrs or so. As you noticed something must change.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i think your survival rate is respectable for being so far north, especially considering being off treatments. honey production sounds lower than what others are getting up there. do you have a feel for what percentage of your colonies are swarming?


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

10% or less. Swarming is not a big issue for me. It happens though.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

that's pretty darn good clay. i believe you are overwintering in 3 deeps. is most of the honey gone by the time you first get into your hives in the spring?


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Yes 3 deeps of course I have a few doubles at times also. Ya they usually have quite a bit of extra stores. It's normal to have a delayed spring or a good cold snap. So lots of stores makes for good hives, rather than shutting down right at the wrong time for population buildup. Mr Palmer is probably right by using 2 deep and a medium but I like uniform equipment for broodnest and to err on the safe side. I'm keeping an eye on Tim Ives, I like what he's doing.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

yep. mp's reported honey production per hive this year was only about a medium super's worth above yours. i guess all of those overwintered nucs he has for back up hedges the risk of leaving a little less honey. honestly clay, it doesn't sound like you're doing too bad up there.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

The packages I buy have barely been surviving long enough to treat them. Install in April, built up in July, dead in September. They got OAD in August but it didn't save them.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

It's not really packages that are the problem. It's the queens in them and the genetics that they impart. I bet if these queens were of good vsh or mite biting lines or both I bet packages would actually be good again. The bigger question is why is this not happening? Seems that little is being done to have a better bee in what was big part of beekeeping industry.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Interesting experiment (very small n) in my neck of the woods, near Cleveland: a friend got a package with a VSH selected Carni queen. Then a week or so later a swarm moved into her other hive. Come this October, the package was dead, the swarm alive...this will be a more interesting story if come Spring the swarm is still kicking and can overwinter again the following year. There have been a lot of experiments done where researchers got packages then let them live (or not) - the loss rate for packages without treatment is abysmal, like decimating, losing 90% over several years. One group started with 150 and had 8 by the end of 4 or 5 years - but those 8 went to become 11 the following year. It is this paper: Survival of mite infested (Varroa destructor) honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies in a Nordic climate* Ingemar Fries in Apidologie.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Clayton Huestis said:


> I bet if these queens were of good vsh or mite biting lines or both I bet packages would actually be good again. The bigger question is why is this not happening?


Two things about that. The first is your question assumes it is not happening, in fact it is. But the second thing about your question is it is not happening as fast as some folks would like because commercial bees are raised to make money. IE make lots of honey or do pollination in an environment where the bees focus on that, and the beekeeper takes care of their health.

Commercial guys can't use mite biters, allogroomers, ankle biters, or whatever, if they spend all day doing that instead of maximising profit, that's how capitalism makes the system work. On the other hand there is no law against anybody at all who wants too, producing their own mite biters or allogroomers and selling them to the seemingly large group of people who want them. So "why is this not happening?" Just cos someone has to do it that's all. If noone does it is not the fault of others.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

OT actually I know vsh is being done by some. But not across the board so that all that buy packages would at least have some % of vsh expression. Of course open mated vsh queens can be all over the place with the trait. But at least a starting point for someone to go TF. Can't select bees that are dead by August like many places offer. 

As to your last remarks that is exactly what I'm thinking.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

This link is for VSH queen breeders... unfortunately the info seems multiple years out of date.

The churn is small scale breeding operations mimics that in the hobby world.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...&ll=35.03259099427755,-113.88759650000003&z=4


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>In fact you are in good company, Michael Bush has moved from strict 4.9 sc, to natural comb and letting the bees build whatever they want.

Your sequence of events is off, but otherwise, yes. I went to natural comb and 4.9mm simultaneously to see how each would play out. I've never done "strict 4.9"


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Oh my apologies, I must have misunderstood your older posts.

Out of interest, if you went from large cell, to small cell and natural cell, at the same time, did the bees building natural cell immediately build small cell size or have to be regressed through a few cycles of natural combs to get down to that?


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Oldtimer said:


> Two things about that. The first is your question assumes it is not happening, in fact it is. But the second thing about your question is it is not happening as fast as some folks would like because commercial bees are raised to make money. IE make lots of honey or do pollination in an environment where the bees focus on that, and the beekeeper takes care of their health.
> 
> Commercial guys can't use mite biters, allogroomers, ankle biters, or whatever, if they spend all day doing that instead of maximising profit, that's how capitalism makes the system work. On the other hand there is no law against anybody at all who wants too, producing their own mite biters or allogroomers and selling them to the seemingly large group of people who want them. So "why is this not happening?" Just cos someone has to do it that's all. If noone does it is not the fault of others.


OT this is a great point!

Commercial beekeepers are business people. IF "varroa resistant" stocks provided a benefit in their commercial setting they would use them in a heart beat, especially if they matched the production qualities of today's commercial stocks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Out of interest, if you went from large cell, to small cell and natural cell, at the same time, did the bees building natural cell immediately build small cell size or have to be regressed through a few cycles of natural combs to get down to that?

I started several things at once. I put large cell bees on starter strips. I put large cell bees on small cell wax. I put large cell bees on the plastic 4.9mm that Dadant was selling at the time. I put large cell bees on wax dipped PermaComb (fully drawn plastic, when dipped was probably 4.8mm or so if you take the tapered cells into account).

1) Large cell bees (5.4mm) on starter strips built about 5.1 in the core of the brood nest.
2) Large cell bees on 4.9mm wax, some drew it fine. Some made it very funky with a lot of transition cells so it's difficult to say what the cell size was on those.
3) The bees refused to draw on the Dadant plastic 4.9mm. They would draw fins. They would draw combs out away from the surface. They never would draw on the foundation.
4) The bees on wax dipped PermaComb accepted it immediately and used it as regular comb.

These were mostly bees I had on 5.4mm foundation (DuraComb from Dadant).

Later experiments with packages of unknown original size they sometimes would build foundationless as small as 4.7mm on the first try. This is not consistent with the results when I knew they were on 5.4mm before, so I assume they were on smaller foundation--either Pierco 5.2mm or what Mann Lake at the time called their "standard" plastic frames which were 4.94mm. Later when Honey Super Cell came out I used it unwaxed and was not impressed by the lack of acceptance. The bees would eventually use it, but it would set a package back by about 2 weeks. Putting it in an existing brood nest and crowding them would get them to use it, but again they would wait about two weeks before they would use it.

Now I have a mixture of all of the above and now they are often mixed up in the same hive.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good to clarify. My reading of you when I first came to Beesource had me thinking you were a small cell beekeeper, and as most of my small cell knowledge came from reading Dee, I had imagined you were similar at that time.

I actually know where the confusion may have come from. There was in treatment free circles at that time, a body of opinion that large cell (5.4) was unnaturally forced on bees, and we should return to smaller cells which were "natural". There were those who felt 4.9 was the natural size, and would use the word small cell and natural cell interchangeably. That could have had me thinking that where certain people were talking about natural comb they were really talking about 4.9 sized cell comb.

It was actually Barry who made a point one day of definatively stating the difference between the two.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Part of the confusion on cell size with natural cell is the range of cell sizes. I typically see 4.6mm in the core of the broodnest but the outside edges are often larger. So what size do you say they are? In my experience, what matters is the core of the brood nest.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> So what size do you say they are?


Not quite sure if that is a statement or a question? But if a question, and to me, the answer here would be around 5.2 core broodnest, bigger outer broodnest.

I base that on what I find in wild hives (which admittedly are mostly escaped large cell bees), and also the size my bees reverted to after 2 years of living in sc (4.9) sized hives, once presented with the opportunity to build natural comb.

The fact bees here won't naturally go down to 4.9 sized cell does not debunk the theory that 4.9 sized cells might help with varroa control. It merely proves that bees do not naturally "know" that 4.9 sized cells may help with varroa control, how would bees know that? Varroa is only a very recent introduction to EHB in the evolutionary time scale. Parts of my country only got varroa 3 years ago. There is no way those bees would have learned by evolution and natural selection, to build 4.9 sized cells to help with varroa control. The "bees know best" argument is flawed if used in relation to bees knowing what comb to build to control varroa.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I can say from my experience that some bees from 4.7 to 5.0 range still died after being placed on small cell over years. Also as OT says naturally return to 5.1 to 5.2 range. I'm leaning towards genetics and virus resistance at this point. I wish any going small cell much luck.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> commercial bees are raised to make money. IE make lots of honey or do pollination in an environment where the bees focus on that, and the beekeeper takes care of their health.
> 
> Commercial guys can't use mite biters, allogroomers, ankle biters, or whatever, if they spend all day doing that instead of maximising profit, that's how capitalism makes the system work.





JSL said:


> Commercial beekeepers are business people. IF "varroa resistant" stocks provided a benefit in their commercial setting they would use them in a heart beat, especially if they matched the production qualities of today's commercial stocks.


Commercial bees have been bred/crossbred/inbred for decades if not longer for nothing more than large populations; to make more packages, more pollination and large honey crops. For the industry to make a bee that can survive they would have to take a step back from these goals (profits). 

It is also more profitable if the packages die and have to replaced every year. It's a win win for bee industry. 

In the process these genes are continually induced across the entire us, making it so very few can keep TF bees, which sells more packages (It's a walmart loop). The few successful TF bees are in isolated beekeeping areas where TF seems to get it's only foothold. 

R Oliver who is a commercial beekeeper (and others) have the insight to see the problem that the commercial industry has greatly amplified and instead of being the problem is trying to fix it. I suspect we will see some great strides in the upcoming years, and hopefully the rest of the industry will have get in step.


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## tracey kindall (Sep 13, 2016)

I am a beginner beekeeper, fretfully seeing my first hive through its first winter. I would like to get a second hive this spring, and want hardy bees. I am learning a lot from this thread. What is the best way to start a hardy hive - buy a package more locally without a queen and then order a queen that comes from hardier stock? I am in a fairly remote area and most of the bees I will be able to get within driving distance are living in slightly more temperate climates (I am at 5000 ft elevation) and most will come from more traditional (commercial-slant) beekeepers. Through my research, I have found some places that sell queens raised for survival in cold climates, but the sellers do not offer packages, just queens. I would also love to think I could split my current hive in the spring, but I am just hoping they make it through their first winter - and it's been horribly cold so far. And even if I am able to split them, I'd also like to obtain some extra hardy stock to support TF. So, what do you recommend to a beginner wanting to start out right with hardy stock? Thanks,

-- Tracey in Idaho


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What is the best way to start a hardy hive - buy a package more locally without a queen and then order a queen that comes from hardier stock?

Packages come with queens. In order to ship bees without a queen they would have to use PsuedoQueen (QMP) to fool the bees into thinking they have a queen.

> I am in a fairly remote area and most of the bees I will be able to get within driving distance are living in slightly more temperate climates (I am at 5000 ft elevation) and most will come from more traditional (commercial-slant) beekeepers. Through my research, I have found some places that sell queens raised for survival in cold climates, but the sellers do not offer packages, just queens. 

Packages in cold climates are difficult to raise due to timing.

>So, what do you recommend to a beginner wanting to start out right with hardy stock?

Sometimes you have to settle for what you can get and breed from the survivors. But it's worth looking for local queens and/or Northern queens to requeen a package before winter.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

FlowerPlanter said:


> It is also more profitable if the packages die and have to replaced every year. It's a win win for bee industry.


I keep hearing this. When I was involved in packages I certainly did not consider it a win to sell packages that were designed to die, nor did I know anyone else involved with such a mindset.
However this story gets repeated as it is what people with a certain mindset want to hear. A better plan would be change the mindset to - I'm going to provide my bees the essentials of life, so they can make winter and I will never have to buy another package.

That's going to be a whole lot more complex if you want to be TF but choose to buy non TF bees. Not being in that situation I don't really know but would say at a minimum if TF bees cannot be bought then at least requeen, or if you have to buy bees every year, have an honest look at what you are doing and if it's working. Buying bees and not treating them is easy. Harder, is investing the time and gaining the knowledge to winter them.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

I must say I am enjoying reading everyone's experiences with packages and how they have worked with them. I think it should give us all pause when we hear the "avoid packages" argument for TF beeks. 



Oldtimer said:


> That's going to be a whole lot more complex if you want to be TF but choose to buy non TF bees.


In general I agree with that statement. Perhaps this is the case most of the time, but I think there are always exceptions... and bees surprise us.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Pretty sure Beeweavers sell packages claimed to be TF.

But really all that should be needed is a TF queen, only 3 weeks till her bees start supplanting the package bees. Could seem wasteful having to pay for a queen with the package but immediately replace her, but wouldn't that extra cost of another replacement queen be worth it to end up with bees that will thrive TF, no more package buying?


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I have to agree OT. Either replace the queen, or even better might be to get queenless packages or bulk bees, or buy frames of bees and get queens from TF sources.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> But really all that should be needed is a TF queen, only 3 weeks till her bees start supplanting the package bees.


Providing you're not intruding high mite counts, viruses or diseased bees in to your apiary and local area. Once introduced they become a source for reinfection for years to come. 

These were are all packages;

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?314491-Never-seen-this-before

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ing-to-well-not-so-much&p=1306247#post1306247

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?315882-help-identifying-this

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?316245-Population-plummet-need-advice

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-not-drawing-out-frames&p=1298091#post1298091

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?316891-Àre-my-bees-overcrowded&p=1318600#post1318600

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...nd-it-s-not-even-winter&p=1351278#post1351278

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?324660-New-package-superseding&p=1414044#post1414044

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?324974-problems&p=1416658#post1416658


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I did not say every package that has ever been sold is perfect, nor can I vouch for every player in the industry, including the ones who claim to sell TF bees.

My post was to say that your implication that the bee breeding industry as a whole sees their bees dying as "a win" is a falsehood.

Furthermore, if I buy any type of livestock, from chickens to a puppy, I consider it my responsability to perform a health check and take any action needed. Screw ups happen it's not a perfect world, and I build that fact into the way I live my life. All the same, someone selling a sick package should certainly be made aware. But so often the vendor is blamed for events that are not their fault.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

To wind back a bit, the title of the thread is " How Many of you have successfully kept TF from package bees?"

The question does not specify if the package is from a treated source, or an untreated source.

If someone wants to buy a package and not treat it, it would not make sense to buy it from a beekeeper who considers it necessary to treat his bees, he wouldn't waste the money on treatment if he thought the bees didn't need it so someone buying such bees and not treating them is playing russian roulette at the least. 
Buying from someone who claims to sell TF bees would make more sense if the purchaser does not want to treat, although there are plenty of instances of that not working out either.

Not treating bees is easy, keeping bees TF and keeping them alive can require a lot more skill, even my own attempt at TF beekeeping ultimately failed. So I would not knowingly sell bees to someone who wanted to keep them TF and in fact have turned down orders from such people when they said they would not treat. I am not a person who believes in taking money from a fool, but there are people who will.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> I did not say every package that has ever been sold is perfect, nor can I vouch for every player in the industry, including the ones who claim to sell TF bees.
> 
> My post was to say that your implication that the bee breeding industry as a whole sees their bees dying as "a win" is a falsehood.


No one is saying that they planned it, but it has worked out that way. And their not doing anything to fix it either (the exception is R Oliver). No one says walmart planned for their employees to be too poor to shop anywhere else. Their bees at least most aren't dying in their hands, the packages are dying in some one else's (months later) after they've been paid. These packages will be repurchased the following year, increasing demand and price. 

So back to the question; How Many of you have successfully kept TF from package bees?

From this thread It appears not many. As you said replace the queen. And as studies have proven increased chance the packages will survive if you replace the queen even if there not TF.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

FlowerPlanter said:


> From this thread It appears not many. As you said replace the queen. And as studies have proven increased chance the packages will survive if you replace the queen even if there not TF.


This is the difficult part for me. "IF" my colony (started from an unknown source package) emerges strong after this winter. They went into late fall strong, so they very well may. What next? Kill the queen that made it through year one without PMS/DWV? Or make a split with a VSH or Russian queen?

I want to make an informed decision although there may not be a "right" one.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

grantsbees said:


> This is the difficult part for me. "IF" my colony (started from an unknown source package) emerges strong after this winter. They went into late fall strong, so they very well may. What next? Kill the queen that made it through year one without PMS/DWV? Or make a split with a VSH or Russian queen?
> 
> I want to make an informed decision although there may not be a "right" one.


By splitting you are insuring the future of your apiary. Add some local and resistant genetics when you do it. Hopefully your colony will make it through, but "strength" is not a guarantee that it will, other variables are. Strong colonies are just as susceptible to mites, sometimes more so.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Exactly what I would do in your circumstances, the more you split the more local genes you will pick up. Dilute any inferior genes as much as possiable (don't bring in more). Monitor your mites, treat if you must, requeen bad genes, I don't see it necessary to let your hives die.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

grantsbees said:


> This is the difficult part for me. "IF" my colony (started from an unknown source package) emerges strong after this winter. *They went into late fall strong*, so they very well may. What next?


Highlighted the went into fall strong part, because this fools a lot of people and is a trap for new players unfortunately.

If a package of bees that need treatment is purchased in spring, mostly they will have been treated and mite levels will be low. They build up a good population and do well, provide their owner a crop of honey, and in fall look good, at least to a casual glance. At about this time the owner is feeling pretty happy with his bees and thinking all is great. But what's happening under the surface, is the varroa mite population has been building through summer, unnoticed because the increasing bee population has masked the effects. By mid to late fall there is a big mite population, and at this time the bees slow brood raising and reduce their own population in readiness for winter. Now the mites get concentrated onto a smaller number of bees and start doing real damage, by spring the hive is dead. The beekeeper is confused because last time he looked the bees were doing so well. Not knowing to look for he cannot see any signs of mites, so is totally mystified why the bees died.

Not saying this happens every time, but it is pretty common. Just don't be lulled into complacency by a hive doing well over summer and looking good in fall.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

Oldtimer said:


> Just don't be lulled into complacency by a hive doing well over summer and looking good in fall.


Yes I am aware of those traps and I am not too optimistic. That's why I wanted to see other people's personal experience. Buy packages was a mistake that I will not repeat. I am only going to purchase local nucs of either VSH, Carni, or Russian breed.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well little can be done this time of year, just gotta hope your bees will be some of the ones that do make winter. If so, could be worth hanging onto that queen but also doing what you suggested, getting another queen or two, making splits, onwards and upwards.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

Oldtimer, without digressing too much, my local apiary inspector who has been beekeeping for 50 years has been an active part of some studies involving pesticides and neonics. From what he tells me, the CCD that many experience over the winter is not necessarily due to mites. The honey the bees consume over the winter slowly poison them and by spring they are dead. I'm not disagreeing that viruses from varroa mites cause CCD, but that is not the only thing causing it.

I'm also trying to learn more about the phoretic stage of mites on bees during the winter. I understand they can live "up to" 5-6 months. I would think they likely do better in milder climates where they can get to reproductive stage faster. I don't know much about New Zealand's winters but I am sure it's quite different than here in New England of USA.

There are just so many variables here that I don't think anyone should ignore. Touching on small cell, SBB, foundationless are things that may affect Varroa populations.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Mites have been shown to live up to 12 months if they are prevented from breeding. Even with breeding they must last a reasonable time because if we assume 2 weeks per cycle plus say, 3 days between cycles, and 5 to 7 cycles, that gives best part of 4 months.

New Zealands winters, at least where I am are very mild, doesn't go below freezing and brood raising goes 365 days per year. Unfortunately creating a great environment for varroa mites. That, and some other factors like the density of our bee population make working towards resistant bees an extremely difficult task.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

"There is a common misunderstanding among hobby “treatment free” beekeepers. By allowing untreated hives containing commercial stocks to collapse from varroa, they flood the surrounding feral population with mites, thus overwhelming any colonies exhibiting some degree of mite resistance, causing the loss of those hard-won genes. Thus, rather than helping, such beekeepers may actually set back the natural process of evolution. For treatment-free beekeeping to be of benefit to the evolutionary process, you can’t start or replace colonies with varroa-susceptible commercial stock. Just because you wear the “treatment free” hat, that doesn’t suddenly make the commercial stock in your hive any more resistant to mites or DWV. Treatment free can work, but your hives need to be started with stock that has a fighting chance against varroa!"

randy oliver, american bee journal, volume 156 no. 12, december 2016, p. 1324


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

grantsbees said:


> Oldtimer, without digressing too much, my local apiary inspector who has been beekeeping for 50 years has been an active part of some studies involving pesticides and neonics. From what he tells me, the CCD that many experience over the winter is not necessarily due to mites. The honey the bees consume over the winter slowly poison them and by spring they are dead. I'm not disagreeing that viruses from varroa mites cause CCD, but that is not the only thing causing it.


He said that? Poisonous honey?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

It was a popular theory back in CCD days. Like all the other theories it had studies that "proved" it.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Never heard that one OT. Pretty sure I know who the inspector is, with 50 years experience. He would say something like that.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

In this presentation on mites and timing operations in the beeyard, Landi Simone references some reasons why seemingly strong colonies may fail unexpectedly over winter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WbUtAJjmD4

Recent research indicating Varroa feed on vitellogenin (bee fat) may also be part of the explanation for winter failures...bees just lose their heating capacity.

In our little club the only treatment free successes have been among the few members who live in geographically isolated locations. Having dealt with their initial mite infestation, they are not reinfested. For the rest of us, particularly those in bee dense areas, particularly when those areas host pollination bees from operations that medicate and treat prophylactically, and/or host survivor yard experiments, treatments are essential.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

MP the theory went that plants were either grown from neonic coated seeds, or treated with neonics later. Since neonicitinoids are systemic it was assumed trace amounts of neonics would end up in the pollen and nectar. The dose was not enough to kill the forager bees (sublethal was the buzzword), but would be stored in winter food supplies and because the bees may eat that honey for several months would gradually weaken them and kill the hive.

I won't link any studies so as not to lead anyone astray, but the studies "proving" this was the cause of CCD tended to focus on 2 things. Firstly, testing on some dead bees collected from dead hives found neonicitinoids in their system. The second part was that scientists were able to kill bees held in cages in a lab by force feeding them syrup laced with neonicitinoids, thereby proving that neonicitinoids kill bees.

Put all this together and write up the study persuasively enough and you have it. Neonicitinoids are the cause of CCD.

Best memory serves, my own reading of these studies at the time showed two glaring errors. First the dead bees that had trace amounts of neonics in their system probably had hundreds of other chemicals in their system also, same as most living things do in our modern world. No proof was ever made that the neonicitinoids killed them and in fact it was admitted the levels were too low to have killed them, but the word "sublethal" was slipped in and written up in such an ominous sounding way as to convince the gullible it must be neonicitinoids causing CCD and the scientists involved deserved their grant money. The other glaring error was that feeding poison to bees trapped in a cage and proclaiming proof when the bees die, has nothing to do with what happens in the real world, in my opinion anyway.

Not saying neonicitinoids have never killed bees, just saying that I could never find the proof it was the cause of CCD. There are some, this bee inspector for example, who remain convinced.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

Oldtimer do you work for Bayer? 😂


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> "There is a common misunderstanding among hobby “treatment free” beekeepers. By allowing untreated hives containing commercial stocks to collapse from varroa, they flood the surrounding feral population with mites, thus overwhelming any colonies exhibiting some degree of mite resistance, causing the loss of those hard-won genes. Thus, rather than helping, such beekeepers may actually set back the natural process of evolution. For treatment-free beekeeping to be of benefit to the evolutionary process, you can’t start or replace colonies with varroa-susceptible commercial stock. Just because you wear the “treatment free” hat, that doesn’t suddenly make the commercial stock in your hive any more resistant to mites or DWV. Treatment free can work, but your hives need to be started with stock that has a fighting chance against varroa!"
> 
> randy oliver, american bee journal, volume 156 no. 12, december 2016, p. 1324


That´s interesting so far because when I was a member of ResistantBees forum it was recommended for those who wanted to go cold turkey to use Sugar dusting every 3 weeks to keep at bay the phoretic mites.
( This not to start a discussion about what treatments are, this is a treatment for sure)

I did this myself with my first hive and I claim they still would live if I started this in spring. This would prevent them from infesting other hives, if the other beekeepers would prevent robbing.
Maybe a time will come when I have to do this again or one of my co-workers will give to me a split to do experiment with.

OT, what you post about pollen is most interesting and I realized, I have more to learn about the context pollen has to the bees health. ( contaminated pollen for example or less nourishing pollen like corn pollen).
Thanks.

I have two bee yards and different plants growing there.. The one just now crashing was exposed to a sprayed rape field. The other is in a natural environment. But the bee race is another too.
Would be interesting to examine the dead bees... well i have yet to see which ones survive....


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

grantsbees said:


> Oldtimer do you work for Bayer? &#55357;&#56834;


No I'm with the illuminati.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

SiWolKe said:


> I have two bee yards and different plants growing there.. The one just now crashing was exposed to a sprayed rape field. The other is in a natural environment. But the bee race is another too.
> Would be interesting to examine the dead bees... well i have yet to see which ones survive....


Well insecticides certainly kill bees, used to see more of it 40 years ago when old school pesticides were mixed with old school gung ho attitudes and application methods. Now there's modern pesticides, education, and application methods, me anyway, haven't seen pesticide related bee deaths for a long time.



SiWolKe said:


> OT, what you post about pollen is most interesting and I realized, I have more to learn about the context pollen has to the bees health. ( contaminated pollen for example or less nourishing pollen like corn pollen).


Yikes didn't want to revive this old and discredited debate again.
But if you are interested in the subject talk to Michael Palmer, plenty first hand knowledge as he runs hives in the middle of acres of neonicitinoid treated corn feilds. His winter survival rates are way above the national average plus he makes so many spare bees that he sells hundreds of nucs every year. Based on results, he must be a model of good practise. And one thing he is strong on is ensuring mite levels are kept right down, breeding good bees is part of that.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> No I'm with the illuminati.


Good one.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

I was able to check on the hive the other day. I'm glad I did it now because they were dead. I am assuming Oldtimer was correct.
The mites overwhelmed the colony significantly reducing the population. Then we got a freeze that killed the remaining bees. This is based on my observation of a sparse amount of dead bees in the hive and a very small ball of bees in the center, likely the remains of the cluster.

So, add this to the list of packaged bees that don't make it without treatments.

Now I shall make honey and get ready to bring in some Russian 'mutts' in the spring.

Question: I've heard of people holding on to their dead queens. Any reason to do this?


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Grantsbees, I was taught to put any dead queens into a small jar of alcohol, and use the resulting tincture to season new nucs/hives. The queen pheromone is supposed to be held in the tincture and make absconding less likely in new boxes.

I find this is a bit of a PITA, and in a lecture from the Beaverlodge research facility a couple of years ago they advised spraying all hive interiors, especially new, with a tincture of propolis instead (and also advised to use rough lumber on hive interiors, which bees propolize). The film of propolis acts as a foot-wipe and disease incidents dropped significantly when bees had to track over a lot of propolis covered surface to get onto combs. Go figga. I would think it helps prevent absconding as well, although I always try to put in a bit of brood as bee stickum.

Michael Jaross of our local club (Mt. Baker in WA) came up with the idea of using a wallpaper stripper to score the inside of supers that are made with smooth lumber inside, as all commercial boxes presently are. The tiny teeth leave a rough pattern on the wood, and all indentations are propolized.


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## SBky (May 7, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> Highlighted the went into fall strong part, because this fools a lot of people and is a trap for new players unfortunately.
> 
> If a package of bees that need treatment is purchased in spring, mostly they will have been treated and mite levels will be low. They build up a good population and do well, provide their owner a crop of honey, and in fall look good, at least to a casual glance. At about this time the owner is feeling pretty happy with his bees and thinking all is great. But what's happening under the surface, is the varroa mite population has been building through summer, unnoticed because the increasing bee population has masked the effects. By mid to late fall there is a big mite population, and at this time the bees slow brood raising and reduce their own population in readiness for winter. Now the mites get concentrated onto a smaller number of bees and start doing real damage, by spring the hive is dead. The beekeeper is confused because last time he looked the bees were doing so well. Not knowing to look for he cannot see any signs of mites, so is totally mystified why the bees died.
> 
> Not saying this happens every time, but it is pretty common. Just don't be lulled into complacency by a hive doing well over summer and looking good in fall.


This is exactly what has happened to me 2 years in a row. I started with one package the first time and me being dumb and not knowing any better thought that they just weren't a strong enough colony, so the next year I purchased two packages and installed them with one queen. They did very well up until late fall and then died. I now know that it was mites, the feces looked like you held the comb up and took a salt shaker to it. This is a Warre hive that I built myself. I did not treat in any way. I'm done buying bees(well, packages anyway). I put out several swarm traps and still hoping for a swarm but it doesn't look likely this year. I've seen a lot of lookers but no takers. Oh well, I've been collecting up some scrap wood and will set-out as many swarm traps as I can next year. I may decide to buy a nuc or two from someone local next year if I don't catch a swarm pretty early.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

SBky said:


> I may decide to buy a nuc or two from someone local next year if I don't catch a swarm pretty early.


If I were in your situation, I would try to find the nearest person who did cutouts and see if they had a nuc for sale. That's just me.


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## SBky (May 7, 2017)

Thanks, that sounds like good advice. Hopefully sometime in the near future I'll get the chance to do cut-outs myself.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

It might be possible for anyone to keep package bees TF in Europe. 

Luca Consigli from Southern Italy on a visit to our beeyards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TSgIjntnIY

www.packagebeeseurope.com


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

SBky said:


> Thanks, that sounds like good advice. Hopefully sometime in the near future I'll get the chance to do cut-outs myself.


FWIW any cutouts/feral bees in my locale are usually swarms off packages and pollination bees. Their genetics are not superior or different. As Dr. Seeley keeps telling us, frequent swarming and resulting small colonies can outrun the Varroa...for a bit longer than supported colonies. Hence bees in trees. But they are not true survivors. Even if a completely Varroa-proof colony were collected, any daughter queens are going to meet the usual run of drones in our local DCA's. 

We don't talk much about the logistics of distributing bees with a Varroa-proof genome, assuming they can acquire one. It would have to be a continent wide effort, area by area. 

Juhani, I cannot make out the conversation in that video (which ought to be subtitled), but here is the description:
_Apicoltura La Fenice is one of the biggest package bee producers in Europe. Director and owner Luca Consigli made a visit on our beeyards on the 7th of June. The outstanding performance of Lundén Resistant Queens crossed with Horst Preissl anatolian buckfast bees has taken them by surprise. " They are the most productive bees we have ever had. *They are not 100% varroa resistant in our climate, but better than other resistant bees we have tested. " confirmed Luca. They tested hundreds of daughter queens.*

We inspected the situation of drone frames, overall condition of the hives and looked at the hive bottom to see mites. Winter shelter papers were taken away. I had only once opened the hives this spring , 8 days ago when I put the drone frames and gave some food. Dandelion has just started to bloom, spring 2017 was very cold!

After confirming drone larva development stage the day for queen rearing start could be decided.

Lucas wife Beatriz Perez took photos and video.
_

I hate to be a wet blanket but there is no claim here that packages can be kept TF in that description. And any time you test 100's of queens, you are going to find some have more robust/productive colonies than others. I would also add that while some people tell me they run TF, they are either geographically isolated or do a ton of management techniques (most commonly, relentless splitting) to try to keep ahead of the mite curve. Those techniques seem to result in delaying the mite apocalypse, and meanwhile produce small, unproductive, vulnerable colonies. This strikes me as a less than compelling outcome.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

WesternWilson said:


> I hate to be a wet blanket but there is no claim here that packages can be kept TF in that description.


That is correct, no such claim. 

But the main point was, that the big producers are getting interested in TF material, and that is important, if we ever wish to see TF beekeeping in bigger scale.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Juhani, as you know for sure the SHB has yet not reached northern europe and last year in italy many hives burned because of the presence of one or two beetle hives.

How do you avoid spreading the hive beetle to central and northern europe with package bees?

You probably know that AFB and SHB being present makes us loose our bees as is the local law to fight them with burning the hives.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Sibylle, We've had hive beetles for about 15 years here where I live. They can be managed if the beekeeper is willing to learn new methods. 

Use minimal smoke when working the hives. Beetles lay eggs when the hive is disrupted. Working them carefully avoids giving the beetles a chance to start.

Avoid doing any management for about 2 months mid-summer after the honey has been removed. This is the worst time for beetles so avoid problems by leaving the bees alone.

Strong colonies are the best defense against beetles. If a hive goes queenless or otherwise declines in population, find out what is wrong and address it, then remove as many frames as needed until the bees can cover all of the frames remaining. Beetles are not nearly as much a problem when bees cover all the combs present in the hive.

Mini mating nucs are bait for beetles. I make single frame splits from a strong colony where the comb is about half full of sealed brood, then shake in the bees from a second frame. I am running 2 of these in each square Dadant hive using a center divider. The bees ignore the extra space until the new queen is mated and laying at which time they will attempt to build a second comb. I give them a second comb as soon as I see eggs in the frames.

There are distinct differences in beetle resistance in my bees. I'm focusing on breeding from queens that show very high resistance. This is a combination of traits where queens maintain strong colonies and the bees aggressively pursue the beetles. I don't know enough about it yet to describe exactly what the bees are doing, but I can tell enough to know when a hive is exhibiting resistance. There is a huge component of bees grabbing a beetle and trying to sting while buzzing their wings. Eventually the beetle takes the fast way out and leaves the hive.

If you find combs with beetle larvae, immediately shake the bees off and place the combs in a heavy plastic bag in the freezer. They can be removed a couple of days later but DO NOT give them back to the bees in their current state. Spray them off with water and let them dry outdoors but not in direct sun. After 2 weeks, the beetle pheromones will have dissipated and they can be given to strong colonies to rebuild. I am placing them in the greenhouse because I found that wax moths will not lay eggs on frames in the constant light and heat. If a comb has major damage, I melt it down. Minimal damage gets the freezer treatment. I have successfully cut the beetle affected areas out of a comb and given it straight back to the bees. This works only if other combs are removed so the bees completely cover the damaged comb.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

WesternWilson said:


> I would also add that while some people tell me they run TF, they are either geographically isolated or do a ton of management techniques (most commonly, relentless splitting) to try to keep ahead of the mite curve.


I run treatment free. I am not geographically isolated. I do relatively little management techniques. I don't do relentless splitting.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

grantsbees said:


> I am genuinely curious as to who (if anyone) has been able to sustain a colony started from package bees for 3 years or more by being strictly Treatment Free.


Five years ago I tried to retrogress treated, south GA, large cell packages to TF SC. I am aware of one claim of successful conversion that came from a south GA package. However the keeper has confessed to using Paramoth so I have questions. Based on my experience it is a low probability path to TF. Treating allows bad genetics to temporarily survive. You should find a better lake to fish in. My recommendation is to locate a TF breeder or immediately requeen a package with with a known TF queen. Mine are swarm genetics and two Carpenter allogroomer genetic lines. Since giving up on south GA package genetics I have not lost a production colony in 4 years.

A student gave me a split off of a large cell daughter of a daughter of a package queen. I am in the process of retrogressing the colony to TF SC. He claims she, the daughter, had never been treated. It is assumed her Mother had. Of my 15 colonies guess which one has the SHB problem. The queen will suffer a Ann Boleyn problem soon. 

FP, thanks for an intelligent discussion on your SHB methods. Mine are similar.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Thanks Dar, this is very good information about the SHB, nice to be prepared.

But I´m not very much afraid for the bees. They could cope beautifully with the wax moths even having much space so they will learn about the beetles.

But our law, like preventing resistant bees by forcing treatments and making tf kind of illegal, will not leave it to the bees but will take away my bees if they are infested.
So it will need some time to let the law realize the SHB can´t be distroyed. This realization always needs some years just like it was with the mite problem.

The first time mites appeared every beekeeper was ordered to use perizin, now we are allowed to use organic acids.

Same with AFB. They burn your hives but today they try to save the bees, give them new equipment. In fall they are burned with the infested boxes and brood combs.
The law realized that AFB spores are present in every hive and can´t be eliminated.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> How do you avoid spreading the hive beetle to central and northern europe with package bees?


My pessimistic opinion is that human action cannot prevent it from coming as far north as it will live(=stand winter conditions). 
-In Finland we tried every law, bumber zone, restriction to move bees etc. to prevent varroa from spreading from the eastern border. Useless. 
- In New Zealand they have much more experience in these matters. They tried to prevent varroa from entering their country. They even washed my suvenier honeypot empty and sprayed all the passangers of Jumbo (Boing 747) with insecticide back in 1986 when I went to work for Alan Murray. Useless.

Maybe EU is more efficient , they are good at paperwork and inventing new restrictions... 


So if it comes, would it be an idea to have resistant queens with it?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

My post crossed yours Juhani.

The problems are global marketing and distributing.
The decisions of law and order adapt but as a whole industry profits from designing restrictions the changes in attitudes need years.

It would be nice and just for the bee industry to have a solution and some influence on this so the small beekeepers are not the ones who have all the disadvantage.
The commercial beekeepers are sure to receive some compensation money.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Fusion_power said:


> There are distinct differences in beetle resistance in my bees.


Has anybody (scientist) worked out how to test resistance differencies to SHB?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Dar, are you doing something to prevent the beetle larvae to move to the ground and pupate in the earth?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

When I find beetle larvae in a hive, I either freeze the combs immediately or scrape them out into a bucket of water. They can't swim and they don't like cold temperatures. It is a matter of survival for the bees for me to take immediate action if beetle larvae are in the combs.

It is relatively easy to open a colony and see if beetles are freely sharing the combs with bees. Resistant colonies keep beetles away from the brood. They may lurk in corners or nooks and crevices but they are not tolerated in the brood area.

Susceptible colonies have beetles freely roaming on brood combs. When a small nuc or weak colony does not have enough bees to cover all the combs, adult beetles will roam over the combs. This may be a colony that otherwise is resistant but because of conditions the beekeeper created the bees are unable to control beetles. I'm taking the most stringent approach by breeding only from queens that produce bees that do not tolerate beetles in the brood area. Africanized bees are distinctly better at this than European races. 

The queens I got from BWeaver in 2015 were much better at managing beetles than my other lines. I bred from the best BWeaver queen and got one daughter queen that performed very well in 2016. The swarming tendency is almost entirely suppressed and stinging tendency is no worse than an average colony of my line of bees. I am raising a few queens from her now. I won't know until next year how well beetle resistance from her is inherited. The rest of the BWeaver queens had too many problems. I got rid of them last year and good riddance.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Many thanks, dar. Very good advise given.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

Still early in the game but so far so good


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

The packages I buy here in California don't live long enough to become treatment free. Install in April, gone in October. Bought a few from a different supplier this year, we will see if they are any more hardy. Why is it many of the swarms I catch live for a few years, but not a package?


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

odfrank said:


> Why is it many of the swarms I catch live for a few years, but not a package?


Different genetics and different initial stressors.


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

Because swarms leave most of the varroa in the brood behind them. And new swarms have another broodless period before they establish themselves (build new combs).


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Sasha said:


> Because swarms leave most of the varroa in the brood behind them. And new swarms have another broodless period before they establish themselves (build new combs).


Why do swarms bring fewer mites with them than packages?


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## SBky (May 7, 2017)

SBky said:


> I put out several swarm traps and still hoping for a swarm but it doesn't look likely this year. I've seen a lot of lookers but no takers.


Had some takers today! My first swarm catch! Had about 40 or so scouts last night just before a storm. This morning had scouts again early. At noon I saw about 40 or 50 bees nasanov fanning on the front of the trap. I stuck my ear to the box and sure enough I got'em.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

> from package bees?


 missed that part, scratch me out


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## xphoney (Nov 7, 2014)

Riverderwent said:


> Why do swarms bring fewer mites with them than packages?


We find the opposite to be true. Packages are usually treated at the supply end. The only hive we have with mite issues this year is a swarm.


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