# Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25



## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

I am looking to increase my hive numbers and requeen what I have. I will probably need 20 to 25 queens this year. My stock has shifted to mostly southern Italians and I have not been impressed. I would like some darker bees with VSH traits to help with winter and mites here in CT. To get a breeder to graft from for $200 or $250 or so, my thinking is I would get superior genetics and cost me only $10/queen, plus potentially help with winter losses. I bought a pure VSH breeder from Glenn Apiaries about 10 years ago and had great success. I know they are no longer around as a company, but is my overall logic sound? Is it worth getting a breeder for this many queens? Is there a suggestion of what bee type/breeder company if winter hardiness and mite tolerance are my two most important factors? Thanks!


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## PJTracy1 (Jul 19, 2019)

We run between 100-140 hives in Eastern CT and have had tremendous success with the queens we graft. They are survivor stock Carniolan/Italian hybrids that are open-mated. I'd be happy to talk to you more about this and potentially line up queens/ or queen cells from a graft for you.

PJ 860-933-5617


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

impressive, that's a large TF operation for most places, what are your losses like?

Shout out to the OP, I grew up in Ellington


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> impressive, that's a large TF operation for most places, what are your losses like?



they are TF in Eastern CT?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> they are TF in Eastern CT


I don't know of another way to produce survivor stock :kn:


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Survivor could just mean that they overwinter well and have nothing to do with being TF. Regardless, the OP should take PJ up on the offer as opposed to spening big bucks for a breeder, given the number of queens wanted.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

PJTracy1 said:


> We run between 100-140 hives in Eastern CT and have had tremendous success with the queens we graft. They are survivor stock Carniolan/Italian hybrids that are open-mated. I'd be happy to talk to you more about this and potentially line up queens/ or queen cells from a graft for you.
> 
> PJ 860-933-5617


 Thanks PJ, I will definitely give you a call, I really appreciate the offer. Glad to know there are others in CT having success!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Survivor could just mean that they overwinter well and have nothing to do with being TF


That means most of the package bees are "survivor stock" as they are grafted from overwintered queens

Survivor stock as used means they have lived TF and survived... Bees that survive with treatment are very common:lpf:

they may have meant " locally adapted and winter hardy stock"


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Mosherd1:

PJ's bees certainly sound interesting and I am in no way directing you away from them.

That said there is a beeman in the "for sale" section on this site that also has interesting sounding bees and has advertised overwintered bees for sale in Western MA. with a interesting pedigree. 
Here is the ad link https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...n-Massachusetts-Overwintered-Nucleus-Colonies

I don't know this MA beeman and just like I am not directing you away from PJ, I am not directing towards the MA beeman. 
(I have though put both in my personal regional queen contact book for future reference.)

The AI queen is worth the purchase IMO for the 25 queens you need with the caveat that will take more work to end up with laying queens along with the fact that the first generation queens you raise will be mating with the drones of the population of bees you are looking to replace. Instant genetic dilution.
Purchased mated queens from a apiary you like add immediately to the genetic switch over in your bees including the male side if you raise a bunch of drones from them to flood the area. Faster changeover and more local genetic control but more expensive monetarily.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

msl said:


> Survivor stock as used means they have lived TF and survived..


I looked in the dictionary. There is no slot for 'survivor stock' with respect to bees.

My guess would mean, 'survivor stock' are bees that were used as props in a stupid television show.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Don't people also add the moniker "Survivor Stock" to swarms of unknown origin?

Alex


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2004)

You should consider Latshaw queens before making a final decision. www.latshawapiaries.com.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> I looked in the dictionary. There is no slot for 'survivor stock' with respect to bees.


treatment-free isn't there either... I have run into beekeepers marketing there honey and bees as "chemical-free" as they only use "organic compounds" not "synthetic chemicals" most of us would say OA/FA doesn't fit under the standard usage of "chemical free" 

It a simple matter to go to google scholar and see how the term is used in peer review papers and sicnistific litaure 

JW's deffention is not in line with how 
Sue Cobey use it in her “Queen Rearing for Survivor Stock" class
or how Randy Oliver,Robert G. Danka, Thomas E. Rinderer, John Kefuss, Danny Weaver,Keith Delaplane, David Tarpy, VanEnglesdorp, Shepard, or dozens and dozens of others use it in a scientific context 

I agree there are some people who feel every swarm they catch is "feral survivor stock", but we know that is far from the truth, and their loss rates form such stocks show it 

@loyd Joe has a 4 queen min order


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

PJTracy1 said:


> We run between 100-140 hives in Eastern CT and have had tremendous success with the queens we graft. They are survivor stock Carniolan/Italian hybrids that are open-mated. I'd be happy to talk to you more about this and potentially line up queens/ or queen cells from a graft for you.
> 
> PJ 860-933-5617


PJ would you mind telling me a bit more about your queens and how long you've been working on the line.
If you do mind, I get it- no harm.
Thanks clyderoad.



> JW's deffention is not in line with how
> Sue Cobey use it in her “Queen Rearing for Survivor Stock" class
> or how Randy Oliver,Robert G. Danka, Thomas E. Rinderer, John Kefuss, Danny Weaver,Keith Delaplane, David Tarpy, VanEnglesdorp, Shepard, or dozens and dozens of others use it in a scientific context


msl: I'm very impressed that you can remember specifically how all of those personalities, and the other dozens and dozens not mentioned, use the term 'survivor stock' in their scientific writings.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> You should consider Latshaw queens before making a final decision. www.latshawapiaries.com.


Thanks I did but they had a 4 queen minimum for their AI queens. I also spoke with VP Queens and they are sold out until next year. So I will get my order in early from VP next year I believe. For this year I will see what is available locally and if need be graft from a hive of mine that did well this winter and is a bit darker in color.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> msl: I'm very impressed that you can remember


who said I remembered :lpf:
as I said


> It a simple matter to go to google scholar and see how the term is used


, Grozzie challenged, so I did just that. took about 10 min, and from there I felt I could move forward standing on a defensible position. This is often how I respond (you all really don't think I have all this on the tip of my tongue do you?) as It helps keep me (but doesn't prevent:lpf: ) form putting my foot in my mouth

it is worth noting that both Latshaw and VP queens are TF and offer true survivor stock, you might note that in your area sam comfort uses a LOT of VPs stock (bought as QCs from Miksa Honey farms in FL, they have latshaw cells as well)


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I have been guilty of having foot in the mouth disease on numerous occasions. In this case, I was merely suggesting that someone else may be using the term in a different manner.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

understood JW
when a MOD (or any member with "internet street cred" )states "Survivor could just mean that they overwinter well and have nothing to do with being TF" it can very rapidly become the accepted definition for the next crop of users and using the term in a different manner becomes acceptable, muddying the waters. as I have said before some of our problems come from "chaff left unchallenged" on the internet. Just trying to keep the waters from getting any murkier than they are


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

msl said:


> who said I remembered :lpf:
> as I said , Grozzie challenged, so I did just that. took about 10 min, and from there I felt I could move forward standing on a defensible position. This is often how I respond (you all really don't think I have all this on the tip of my tongue do you?) as It helps keep me (but doesn't prevent:lpf: ) form putting my foot in my mouth.......


Oh wonderful.

Seems much more simple to ask the poster what was meant by the term instead of making the all to common assumption.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I took what they said at face value and asked about their success rate, what's wrong with that?


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

Mosherd1 said:


> Thanks I did but they had a 4 queen minimum for their AI queens. I also spoke with VP Queens and they are sold out until next year. So I will get my order in early from VP next year I believe. For this year I will see what is available locally and if need be graft from a hive of mine that did well this winter and is a bit darker in color.



Try these people. $300 Per AI queens. http://harbobeeco.com/


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

Try these people. $300 Per AI queens. http://harbobeeco.com/[/QUOTE] Thanks, I did not know about them. Do you have any experience with them or their queens?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

no experience with their queens, but John Harbo is a living legend in both the field of II and VSH, good to see they are selling some queens again, they took some time off


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## HeadofMeadow (Jul 30, 2019)

Mosherd, I too am in CT are you entertaining buying from the company that sent out the mailer a week or two ago? If I remember they had a few cheaper (non AI) mated options.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

HeadofMeadow said:


> Mosherd, I too am in CT are you entertaining buying from the company that sent out the mailer a week or two ago? If I remember they had a few cheaper (non AI) mated options.


 Ideally I would like something AI, so at least I am controlling 50% of the genetics. I might have just started my search too late for this year. I will call Harbo, and a couple local guys too just to see what is available. I don't want to spend $40/queen for 25 queens, so i might either buy 1 AI, 1 local or just graft from one of mine and start the search early in 2021. If I buy an open mated local queen to graft from, I will in essence only control 25% of the genes if I graft from her. I am keeping an open mind though, as no matter what I do it won't be a "bad" decision, just a matter of degree of how "good" the decision will be. The last AI dark VSH queen i bought 10 year ago was awesome. I have been wondering lately how much more success I would have had if I kept up buying 1 every couple years, but hindsight is 20/20. Just going to look forward and try to rebuild the genes of the apiary and surrounding area as best I can.


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## HeadofMeadow (Jul 30, 2019)

I wish I didn't throw out the brochure, someone in CT was offering AI, Production queens and locally mated queens. Their locally mated queens would have had at least some of the AI's queen (assuming it was a grafted daughter). Are you a member of the CT Beeper association?


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

HeadofMeadow said:


> I wish I didn't throw out the brochure, someone
> ...


 i used to be but didn't pay the dues a couple years ago, I need to sign up again. Thanks for your help


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Mosherd1
A short plug for Russian bees.
The Rus Q Breeders Assoc runs one of the most rigorous non- AI breeding programs in the country.

http://www.russianbreeders.org/selection--certification.html

I've been running Rus based stock in Windsor and Enfield for over 15 yrs and have found my own locally raised Qs to be well adapted to our area.
Good wintering,fast spring build up,good honey production and good mite tolerance.
Dan Conlon from Warm Colors apiary in S Deerfield MA is currently president and sells some great Qs.I buy a couple every year to add their genes to my yards.If you don't know Dan,you should.

http://www.warmcolorsapiary.com/


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> Mosherd1
> A short plug for Russian bees.
> The Rus Q Breeders Assoc runs one of the most rigorous non- AI breeding programs in the country.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jack, I will definitely look into them. I am finally at a point where I feel I can refocus my energies into the bees and breeding again. I had one Russian hybrid years ago but would definitely be open to trying more out.


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## Muenster (Feb 19, 2018)

For what it's worth I thought that an II Queen was worth it. I'm looking to raise 30-40 queens, maybe more depending on how long she lives. For me the real value is that the drones of the daughter queens will all have the genetics of II Queen's line. For me that's important as our local drones usually produce aggressive tendencies. I ordered one from New River. He sells out very quickly so you have to be ready to order when he opens his online store on January first. Good Luck


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