# Bee Inspector Starting Fluid



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

The state bee inspector came today at my request and inspected my hives.

His method of mite testing seemed harsh. He scooped up about 1/2 a pint jar full and them sprayed starting fluid into the jar and shook it.

Good news....... zero mites. Bad news...... 1/2 pint of dead bees.

Does a sugar roll test kill the bees?


----------



## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

No! 

I have seen very few sugar rolls done among inspectors. If you have got all the sugar roll equipment ready on his arrival I imagine he would do the sugar roll.
Bad news in a commercial operation is 1/2 pint times hundreds of tests.
Did the inspector take the test off the bees on a brood frame?


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

A couple comments....

This lighter fluid method is no better than the sugar roll. Whether you use one method or the other, its just a number when done once. This number means nothing untill compared with following numbers achieved using the same method. Thats not to say that one hive with 1 mite, and another hive with 101, different courses of action and assumptions could be made.

The state should be using a method that any beekeepeer can use. The fact that the state is using lighter fluid in this manner, against labling requirments, and passing off teaching or at least condoning(sp) this use is absolutely wrong. I question if a state program actually calls for such a procedure, or is the inspector just doing it "his way". A call to the state office might be in order.

Teaching the sugar roll not only puts the beekeeper with a tool that can be done safely, but does not kill bees. And yes to do the test properly, you should shake bees from a frame with open brood.

If I was a beekeeper in this state, I would refuse the mite portion of the state inspection, and learn to do it myself. And they should not have a problem with that. They should be there as a service and not a detriment to a beekeeper. 

I once burned a hive. Some state employee, not be named, asked how I destroyed the hive. I said I poured a cup of gas in the top and lit it. Its amazing how the state looks at unauthorized uses for chemicals, and non-compiance with labling laws. Something about liability....


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Yes the sample was taken from a brood frame.

I will not call the state on the guy cuz unfortunatly there are only 2 inspectors in the whole state and would rather not piss him off.

Next time I will have him abstain from the starting fluid portion and show him the sugar roll (I will be trying it for the first time next week).

The inspector was a very nice fellow but in the dark about small cell, FGMO, screened bottom boards, and thought hygenic lines of bees were voodoo.

He also did not think ventilation was a big factor in foulbrood and chalkbrood.

How can a beginner like myself be ahead of the curve on a state inspector????????


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

You belong to beesource, and he probably does not.


----------



## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

As a former bee inspector in ND, I have to chime in.

First off, I'm pretty sure this was not the "state bee inspector" who visited you Bruce, but a deputy bee inspector hired on a seasonal basis (and could be in his first season working with bees). These deputy bee inspectors receive no training in actual beekeeping (small cell, FGMO, etc.). What little training they receive is only to find and identify diseases in beehives.

The method he used to detect Varroa mites is commonly called an "ether roll", and inspectors in this state have been using this method since at least 1990 (and uses engine starting fluid, not "lighter fluid"). This method is a fast & dirty way to determine if Varroa mites are present, and not terribly accurate. However, these inspectors are terribly pressed for time, as they are a lot of beehives in ND (approx. 350,000??). And is taking 300 bees from a hive which should contain 40,000 - 50,000 bees a big concern?

Bottom line is, as you said Bruce, he came at "your request". You don't have to have your bees inspected by the state, they do it on a request basis (unlike in the past, when everyone was inspected). My personal feeling is that the beekeeper is ultimately responsible for the health of his/her bees.


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Gregg, You are correct he was defineitly seasonal.

I agree that the beekeeper is responsible and I gladly requested, and I might add, am grateful for his visit.

I was just disappointed in the lack of knowledge on basic ideas like hygenic bees, screened bottom boards, small cell, etc.

This state should by all means increase it's inspection personel to at least 4 field inspectors and do random uninvited as well as requested visits.

I do not have as big a problem with the ether roll as the lack of time, training, and number of inspectors. I clearly stated it was starting fluid and not lighter fluid.

The fellow was great(has had 6 years of beekeeping experience with a commercial concern) and I am sure in time he will do fine. He is welcome at my place anytime.

What is the time difference between the ether roll and a sugar roll??


----------



## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

I'm a newbee and just completed an extension supported beginner beekeeping class. The ether roll method was the method taught (or should I say mentioned in the text,) I do not remember any other method mentioned, maybe it slipped by me. I first heard of sugar roll method here on beesource. There is a poster-aid on sugar roll in the latest issue of bee culture mag.


----------



## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

Bruce,

Bjornbee called it lighter fluid, not you, just wanted to make sure we're on the same page. Not disagreeing about increasing the number of inspectors, but this state has experienced severe funding cuts in this program. My first year as an inspector (1988) there were 7 of us, although at that time the goal was to inspect at least 10% of everyone's hives in the state. Many states do not even have an inspection program anymore.

My first year as an inspector I knew absolutely nothing about beekeeping. As previously said, the training involved identifying bee diseases (at that time, AFB, EFB, chalkbrood, sacbrood, no Varroa!) and getting introduced to working around bees. I'm amazed I survived that first Summer. I recall the 1st week I was "on my own" in June of 1988 the temperature was over 100 degrees every day, the well serving the place where I lived was down, so no easy access to water, and working bees so mean I was about carried off! Whatever I learned about beekeeping was a gradual process & completely on my own.

Having never done a sugar roll, I can't say how long it takes, although I have heard it is much longer than an ether roll, which takes about 30 seconds.


----------



## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Most inspectors & researchers are not interested (have learned better by now) to get into long conversations with new beekeepers over methods discussed on the internet.

Time is valuable to inspectors and many people believe if its on the internet its so. Sadly not true just like many things you read in bee books are poor methods of bee management. 

Everything told to a new beekeeper will be repeated (like a joke) and changed (like a joke) a small amount.

Many inspectors & researchers are far smarter than given credit for.

I am a commercial beekeeper (few on any bee list). I do not take chances with my bees. I do not waste money on gadgets which may or may not improve my bees. I am still in busness because I look carefully at new methods and try on only the number of hives I can afford to lose. The method has provided dividends and kept me from losing big losses. I do keep an open mind to all beekeepers comments not matter if they only keep a single hive.

My two cents worth.


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I would not be against a small fee per hive (say $1.00) with 1/2 going to R&D and 1/2 funding inspectors.

With ND's hives at approx 350,000 that would yield some nice $$$$ without a major hit.

I feel the industry needs inspection for the good of all.

This gentleman spend a couple of hours with me and I gleened some good info.


----------



## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

Keep in mind Bruce that most beekeepers don't need or want (myself included) bee inspectors looking through their bees. Also, $1 per hive? For the average commercial beekeeper in ND that is several thousand dollars, and up to $10,000 for quite a few.


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I hear you Gregg. One could put a ceiling on the fee to help with commercial keepers.

I understand the reluctance to have an inspector view our bees. The counter arguement would be is one has nothing to hide then why not??

As I said I understand both sides of this and lean toward inspection as a "good thing" as Martha would say.

The key would be trained inspectors funded appropriatly.

All that said, I am not delussional and realize that it will never happen.


----------



## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Fees are cheap compared to other countries. In Australia the inspection service charges $130 Austrailan per hour. The inspection is good for ten days only.

Nebraska charges .50 per hive yearly even of commercial beekeepers to support the inspection service. The inspection service took a friend to court and got the fees for his 1200 hives.

I once had my hives inspected four times in a couple months by two different states. I only had to pay for one inspection. Missouri. Each time I have had bees inspected on return from California in Missouri the inspection service has inspected every hive which amounts to a bunch of hives. Never a sample amount. "What the Missouri state inspector wants" was the reply when we asked about the practice.


----------



## jalal (Sep 2, 2004)

if i was an inspector and somebody tried to change my methods to something like a sugar roll, during an inspection, i don't know what i'd do.

darn hippies.


----------



## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

The only reluctance I have with a bee inspector pawing through my hives is that it is another disruption of the bees, and in this case, unnecessary. I have nothing to hide, although there are some commercial beekeepers in this state and across the country who do. 

I also remember some of the inspectors I worked with, and would not want them anywhere near my bees. Every ether roll done has the potential for the queen getting zapped in the jar.


----------



## Sharkey (May 27, 2004)

Well,

I guess I just didn't realize that not all states required annual inspections. Here in Florida, it IS required. The fees are small, depending on how many hives you have.

Last year, I only had about 6 or 8 hives (I can't really remember, I have about 13 now, I think lol ) and Doug inspected them all.

I enjoyed having him there immensely. He is a long time beekeeper himself, and retired Navy. we had a ball looking and talking about bees.

I THINK it is something along the line of 1 - 10 hives is $5.00 and 10 - 50 is arounf $10.00 and so forth. I have NO idea how high the fee can go.

btw...... Doug used the Sugar roll method. Doesn't take any longer than the ether roll.


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Well I am going to take "hippie" initiative and call the state inspector, Judy I think. I've talked with her before and she seemed nice.

I will forward the Bee Culture poster and suggest they change to the sugar roll. The possibility of killing a queen is real and if the time frame is the same...... why not?

Heck, even a ******* should get it........


----------



## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

Oh geeze ... I'm REALLY not trying to get any stuff started, just making a point...

<<I understand the reluctance to have an inspector view our bees. The counter arguement would be is one has nothing to hide then why not??>>

Is that kinda like:

If you aren't doing anything illegal with it, why be against gun regestration?

If you aren't making meth with it, why are you against limits on the amount of psuedophedrine products you can buy?

If you have nothing to hide, why are you against some parts of the Patriot Act?

BubbaBob
running, ducking, and putting on body armor...


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I agree that my use of "hide" was a poor choice of words.

As a society we inspect and test a multitude of objects and people for the "greater good".

Like testing OTR trucks and Autos for safety.
Airline pilots for proficiancy.
Food products for safety.
etc, etc, etc. All of these are "intrusions" to somebody.

An unchecked beekeeper with loads of mites and AFB is a threat to all within range of his bees. If they are migratory them this is even worse. The vast majority of beekeepers are not a problem.

And BubbaBob........ no need for armor you points are well taken.


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

The chances of killing the queen is minimal/next to nothing if the beekeeper is present and looks over the frame prior to the inspector shaking the bees. I always hand the frame to the beekeeper and ask that he verify no queen is on the frame. The beekeeper appreciates my concern with his bees, and I don't worry about beekeepers making comments/accusations about killing the queen.

And if the beekeeper is present I also use his/her smoker, and hive tool. Many have had good comments about this type of concern shown toward them.

I am sure the level of beekeeping experience is above average on this forum. But in reality the average beekeeper is not knowledgable on screens, fgmo, smallcell, or any other number of items. I also was shocked to learn how many beekeeper were near my operations, and how many had AFB and other problems. Three times last year I was holding frames of AFB from other beekeepers and looking at the next farm over where I had bees. Makes you wonder. I want fellow beekeepers that are not mite farmers, beetle farmers or afb culture labs.

Some states do not have agriculture bases to justify yearly bee inspection budgets. Some states lost the support of the beekeeping community due to being bee police, instead of providing a service that includes education and instruction. 

For those states still having an inspection program, there are many positive things to come out of it. First, the beekeeper has an opportunity to meet and learn from an experienced beekeeper. And yes they should stay up on all the latest information. An inspection may mean more time "chatting" than actually looking at bees. Second, the inspector has a chance to learn from you. Many inspectors have taken jobs as inspectors, to rub elbows, learn, and gain experince about the industry. Most commercial beekeepers have been inspectors at one time or another. Third, it gives many beekeepers the opportunity to ride along with an inspector. Many individuals do not have access to bee clubs, or associations. Ask the inspector if they have a ride-along program. Alot of inspectors like the company.

Much research is also conducted with universities, extension ag. programs, and in coordination with inspectors. Many inspectors volunteer thier own resources, as well as other beekeepers, in making some of the research possible. Much of the testing being conducted is not with university beehives but inspectors and beekeepers just like you and me. There are many side benefits to inspection programs.

I can not tell you the number of times a beekeeper of many years, has asked me what a queen cell was, to show him a mite, or what an egg looks like. And almost all did not know they had SHB, AFB, or resistant hives. These beekeepers may be your neighbors. I want my fellow beekeepers to be informaed and inspected. Its good for them, good for me, and good for the industry. I do not know why anyone would not want thier bees looked at, as we all could learn from another.

With all that said, I do not understand why killing bees is chosen over a sugar roll that does not. 

The comment about lighter fluid was my bad. The previous information stands regardless of what fluid is spoken of.


----------



## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Guys,
The things not said here are resounding. Bruce, Why weren't you telling HIM how many mites you had by giving him the 3 day average from the screened bottom board trays. Why didn't you put into his hands the materials for a sugar roll? Hell, you've been here long enough. You are one of the elite. Don't mean to be critical but this isn't too tough to do.

Dickm


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Dick...... Thanks for the "elite" status. In reality I am fairly unsure of myself although gaining each day.

The inspector had 6 years of commercial experience, I have slightly less than 2 months. Certainly not enough to be very assertive.

I started with 15 Nuc's this May 15th and have been scrambling ever since. Building covers, procuring hive bodies, etc.

This on top of running my business and working 30 to 40 hours a week for the weed board.

I have migratory 4 way pallets and have yet to convert them to screened bottom. (any ideas on how to do this?)

All the equipment needed loads of work or built from scratch. Had to squeeze in putting together 300 frames with small cell foundation which required wiring and wax tube.

Have I whined enough?? All that whining and I absolutly love beekeeping. I hope to be settled in with all equipment and screened bottoms in the next month.


----------



## BeeBear (Jan 20, 2004)

Interesting discussion.

Here in MN, we're struggling with what the governement bee inspection program should be and how it should be funded. The fee to register bees in MN hasn't changed in decades -- it's $10 no matter how many colonies. There was a move this year to change it to be a per-colony fee, and that seems to have hit a brick wall from the commercial beekeepers. There has to be a happy medium betwen a ridiculously low fee and a method that simply encourages people to lie about how many colonies they have.

I would applaud an inspection program that was sufficiently funded to support knowledgable inspectors. As others have pointed out in this thread, there's a lot that the average beekeeper could learn. On the other hand, having someone with governement mandated authority inspect your bees when they are obviously inexperienced and untrained is an insult and worse than useless.

As I write this, the Minnesota government is shut down because our politicians can't get it together. That is the reality. I would really like to see an useful bee inspection program, but as long as the politicians are in control, seems that the chances of that are remote.

By the way, MN charges separately for inspections related to moving bees out of the state. That makes sense. I'd like to see more pay-for-services-rendered philosophy. I'd be willing to pay for an "inspection" is I thought that I could learn something in the process from the expert inspector.


----------



## dickm (May 19, 2002)

You made 842 posts, most of them presumably befroe you got the bees? You do love beekeeping. Sorry to berate you. If you don't solve, in some way, the mite thing you won't be keeping for long. The suggestion I have is to procure some hive sized ( a little less) white masonite (Tileboard) or something similar. Even white cardboard. Smear it with vaseline or lard, cover it with #8 hardware cloth and slide it in to the bottom of the hive. Count the # of mites that fall in 3 days and divide by 3. If this # gets close to 20 you are on yellow alert. Much more and the hive won't survive without treatment. (Some say 50) #s must be evaluated in the light of the size of the hive. Mite counts rise as the season goes on. Late Aug can see severe spikes just as the population decreases.

When it's time to treat, there are a # of ways to do it. Have you read about Sucricide? Oxalic acid? Apistan still works for most but you won't get a recommend from me or most on this board. Better to use something proven in your first year though. When all the hives are deadouts in the spring...it's a sad sight.

It's possible to put screened bottoms on pallets. I saw some in Fla last winter. No slideout trays though. You sound handy enough to figure that out. Personally until the #s go over 100 I'd opt for separate bottoms. I've made some out of 2x4s with a table saw, with the slides. Once you get a pattern, you just set the saw and keep pushing lumber through. 1 stud=1 bottom board. (+ a piece of 2x6 for a lander) husky enough to go without a hive stand. There was an article about it in one of the bee mags. I plan to do another. Is the author on this site? Anyone see it?

Dickm


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanks Dick..... I researched and participated in this forum since last fall when I first started procuring equipment. Got the books and 2 bee journals. Book knowledge is great but this hands on is wonderful, and scary, always second guessing every move I make.

I am going to start construction on screens for the 4 way pallets I have already. I already got a 100 ft. roll of 1/8" screen.

I am using small cell foundation and will start fogging with FGMO and Thymol this week. No Apistan for me. I am interested in oxalic acid for fall treatment.


----------



## dickm (May 19, 2002)

You may be a little late to start FGMO. If you are going to do O/A it would be better if the hives were closed up to keep the vapor in for 20 mins. Consider Sucricide, it's a form of sugar not quite a chemical.

Dickm


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I will Dick....... I've read quite a bit about it. I like the 10 way wand that was in either the ABJ or BC journal.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does a sugar roll test kill the bees?

No.

>many people believe if its on the internet its so.

And many belive if it's on the internet it's NOT so.









>Nebraska charges .50 per hive yearly even of commercial beekeepers to support the inspection service. The inspection service took a friend to court and got the fees for his 1200 hives.


Not anymore. There are no inspection requirements here in Nebraska anymore. You have to ASK them to inspect and then pay them 200 dollars, plus travel if its very far from Lincoln, even if it's only ONE hive.

The inspector was very nice, very compenent and, although he was going to do an ether roll, was more than happy to do a sugar roll instead when I requested it.


----------

