# Should we just use Oxalic Acid instead of FGMO



## louis1st (Oct 17, 2004)

After reading some recent posts on this site, it appears that Oxalic Acid kills a lot more varroas than FGMO...

my question is: should we just use Oxalic Acid and forget FGMO to save time and still get a very good result?


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Not me. FGMO and thymol does all I need.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I use FGMO and thymol. If a colony needs it
I use OA. This has only occurred in my colonies
that are not on small cell, or purchased ones.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> should we just use Oxalic Acid and forget FGMO

Yes.

Oxalic has support in the form of multiple 
controlled studies by multiple research teams,
in multiple countries, while FGMO has a track
record that can be most charitably described as
"mixed results". 

FGMO was first claimed to be a stand-alone 
mite-killer, but later the "protocol" changed,
requiring one to add other substances (for example, thymol) which are well-known to be
effective mite-killers _all by themselves_.

Yes, you can get a mite drop by fogging FGMO.
You can also get a mite drop by spraying a
hive with mere water. Mite drop does not always
mean effective control.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I look at FGMO simply as a carrier for
thymol. While, as Jim says, it does cause
mite drop, it alone does not kill them.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

And fogging is just sooooo darn easy.
I can do my 125 colonies in hardly any
time at all. For cheap too.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Sundance has it....It is cheap, easy, effective. And yes, the fgmo works as a carrier, the thymol kills mites.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
There are so much ways how to handle varroa, effective and uneffective. And how much is coming? Quite many has proved worthless in researches but why they use them still.

Many in my country are disapointed on trickling. What happened, who knows?


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> It is cheap, 

Until you factor in the sunk capital
cost of the fogger.

> ...easy...

Until the fogger starts spitting flames
and sets a few hives afire. 

> ...effective.

Some say so, some say "no".

Better yet, it is approved as a treatment 
by absolutely *none* of the state or federal
agencies that regulate such things! You can
be "original" and "cutting edge". Radical,
perhaps.

Best of all, it satisfies your emotional need
to feel like you are "doing something" about
mites. You get to make a big noise and a large 
cloud of smoke, you get to carry around something
that looks like a _weapon_. Yes, you are
Rambo crossed with Bruce Willis with a dash of
Sean Connery thrown in for good measure.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

So much in Varroa control is dependent on
the application procedure. That includes the
mitecide strips, thymol, or OA trickling.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

> Best of all, it satisfies your emotional need
> to feel like you are "doing something" about
> mites. You get to make a big noise and a large
> cloud of smoke, you get to carry around something
> ...


Cool! Where do I sign up?


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
My opinion is that varroa issue is really overestimated in beekeeping. Varroa is not big problem when you care it and don't use your own innovations.

In warm climates control must be more difficult because there are brood in hives all the time. In New Zealand hives rob weakened colonies in nature and get huge mite load in short time. 

Perhaps in USA when you carry so much hives to California for winter, good climate continues brood raising and keeps high mite level. In north bees have good brood brake. It depends on stocks too, if colonies have natural insticts to meet winter.

If hives have total brood brake, with modern knowledge varroa problem is easy to clean. 

.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

>>>>Best of all, it satisfies your emotional need
to feel like you are "doing something" about
mites. You get to make a big noise and a large
cloud of smoke, you get to carry around something
that looks like a weapon. Yes, you are
Rambo crossed with Bruce Willis with a dash of
Sean Connery thrown in for good measure.<<<<

No, Jim, the "best of all" is I don't have a mite problem. All the rest is minor.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>>>>Best of all, it satisfies your emotional need
to feel like you are "doing something" about
mites. You get to make a big noise and a large
cloud of smoke, you get to carry around something
that looks like a weapon. Yes, you are
Rambo crossed with Bruce Willis with a dash of
Sean Connery thrown in for good measure.<<<<

Best reason I've heard of for fogging.  Makes me wish I had not given up on it a few years back.  I could use a good feeling, especially today.

I still have that 4 1/2 gal of fgmo and a flaky fogger for sale,,,  

BTW, I don't have a mite problem either.

[ November 16, 2006, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: BULLSEYE BILL ]


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

My experience is obviously not a very good basis because I thought the Russians would take pretty good care of themselves. But I did a few things very wrong through the summer.
1) I was distracted by other activities
2) I put on terrible bottoms that had virtually no
built in mite disposal system ie SBB
3) I did not monitor until I had a big problem

I tried to clean up a huge mess of mites with FGMO and my impression is now that at best, FGMO is only a preventative. Oxalic certainly makes a much bigger impact. I have just finished my second application to all the hives and the drop rate has spiked up again, but not nearly as much as the first 48 hours after the first oxalic treatment. From what I am seeing It will take yet one more treatment to make me feel they have at least a fighting chance to get through the winter.

The counts total nearly 40,000 mites.
Only about 6000 dropped in 2 weeks of treating with 3 FGMO/thymol treatments. The drop has been 34,000 in 3 weeks of oxalic acid vapour treatments.

I then will have a lot of months before I need to decide if I'll use FGMO and thymol next year.

I am continuing to update the spread sheet with daily mite counts and you can see the whole sorry story at www.hhrobertsmachinery.com/private/mites.xls

[ November 16, 2006, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: brent.roberts ]


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

One treatment is recommended to be used weekly as long as the bees are flying.
Another treatment is recommended to be used once or twice a year.

So to make a comparison of the two treatments, you use each for two to three weeks. 

Wonderful research, there, Brent. It should go down in history. Really stuck to the details.


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

I corresponded with Dr Rodruigez about the situation and he said there should be no problem trying to accelerate the FGMO fogging to every 4 days, so I did it. 

There may be some work out there to indicate that OA vaporization should only be done once or twice a year, but I did not see it. I did see write ups that said it could be done weekly and done all year round and that it was most effective when there was no brood. Oxalic acid trickle applications is much harder on the bees and once or twice per year is recommended.

The purpose of the exercise was not to produce a research article, just to get rid of mites and try to save the hives for next season. I also wanted to share my experience in hope it would maybe help others figure out what to do or not to do, and perhaps draw some suggestions to help me.

If you can gvie me some links where I can learn more about what to do or not to do please pass them on. This is only my second year at this.

[ November 16, 2006, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: brent.roberts ]


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Brent!

I put your data in exel grafics. It shows that mites start really to die between 14 - 20 day. You started 25 days ago and still mites are dropping.

I have not seen this kind of data before.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

When I put on weekly basis the data, mites drop per week per hive

Week...mites/hive
1	400
2	600
3	2300
4	1200

.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Lets try again

Week--- mites/hive
1. --- 400
2. --- 600
3. --- 2300
4. --- 1200


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Finnman
The anomoly of the table is what has happened in hive #4 after the second vapour treatment. 
I think I must have made an error in the first treatment of this hive. There was definitley and increase in the drop rate after the first treatment, but it is even higher now. Now it still has many more mites than all the others. 

Magnet man posted a link to a German manufacturer and in his site I found this device that both vaporizes OA and then forces air cirulation to force the vapour into every corner of the hive. I was surprized that the price seems so reasonable for German.
http://www.alfranseder.de/deutsch/raehmchenkamm.php


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

iddee

here is one of the links for reference on Oxalic 
Acid vapour treatment and a cut and paste appropriate to your comments. This is study done with 95 beekeepers and something like 1500 hives.

"In practice this means that if it is not clear whether the colonies have brood or if a very high attack of varroa is present, a second treatment should be carried out for an effective winter treatment. This should take place about two weeks after the first treatment. Since the bees show a high level of tolerance to this treatment , a follow-up treatment does not produce any problems."

The link:
http://www.mellifera.de/engl2.htm


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

iddee

here is one of the links for reference on Oxalic 
Acid vapour treatment and a cut and paste appropriate to your comments. This is study done with 95 beekeepers and something like 1500 hives.

"In practice this means that if it is not clear whether the colonies have brood or if a very high attack of varroa is present, a second treatment should be carried out for an effective winter treatment. This should take place about two weeks after the first treatment. Since the bees show a high level of tolerance to this treatment , a follow-up treatment does not produce any problems."

The link:
http://www.mellifera.de/engl2.htm

and a cut and paste from the email from Dr Rodruigez.

"Frequency of applications. 
Yes, definitely, do fog every four days! I recommend the practice to people like you who discover their bees have an increased mite population. Remember that the importance of mite treatment is to knock down the mites before they return to the cells to lay their eggs and, of course, produce more mites. 
Please stay in touch. God bless.
Pedro"


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

>>>a second treatment should be carried out<<<

>>> once or twice a year.<<<

Isn't that the same thing?

>>>recommended to be used weekly as long as the bees are flying.<<<

Maybe I should have said "at least weekly"

My point was "as long as the bees are flying.
No, fogging will not knock out 40,000 mites in three or four weeks. If you don't keep them at a reasonable level all summer, you will need a more drastic treatment. I don't know if it will help, even then, as I've seen it said on this forum that by now the mites have already done their damage and treatment is useless. I just felt like you didn't give fogging a fair chance before coming down on it as hard as you did.


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

You could be quite right. I am very much afraid that the last brood to hatch will be significantly weakened. I acknowledge that I started too late with the fogging but even Dr Pedro encouraged me to try the OA because we are running out of warm weather. I am also trying to feed them syrup and patties to stimulate a little more fresh brood that may mite free and have a better chance over the winter.

The key to the OA vapor as opposed to the trickle is that it is claimed to be relatively harmless to the bees, and that it is so effective that only sometimes will it require repeat treatments. Because the girls are somewhat clustered now, I think the vapours are having a hard time penetrating the cluster. So I have hit them a second time.

The fat lady will sing in the spring.

[ November 17, 2006, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: brent.roberts ]


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

After all, most times, both parties are right, only looking in different windows.

I hope Brent sings in the spring.

[ November 17, 2006, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: iddee ]


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

> Best of all, it satisfies your emotional need to feel like....

>Cool! Where do I sign up?....

I remember somewhere, where a glorious flame ensued after igniting powdered sugared mites on paper. I'll bet, with fgmo, a fogger and the right technique, a person could create a glorious flame, with a white vapor mushroom cloud and a very loud bang! Just be sure to leave the hive cover ajar.

You guys really break me up.

If I ever get a fogger, I'll mount it on a pair of ape hangers and use a motorcycle throttle grip to control it. Could it me made to sound like a Harley?

Regards
Dennis
Thinking I'm a wild and crazy guy but not nuclear


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

FGMO has shown some value as users, here, have reported some success. And, if I remember correctly, New Zealand has approved its use.

It's just a lot more work and disruption compared to using oxalic.

As effective, cheap, easy, and benign to the bees, as oxalic is, I just don't why anyone uses anything else. Most who have tried it, reach the same conclusion.

Regards
Dennis


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Dennis, are you sure you didn't reverse the treatments in your post?? I turn a knob, push a button. Then I pull the trigger twice at each hive. What could be easier? I have heard of Burgess foggers flaming, but I have never heard of a bonide fogger flaming. Cost is about 10 cent per hive after the 50 dollar initial purchase. That's cheap, in my book.

In my opinion, comparing it to oa is like comparing cough syrup to penicillin. I will fog as long as it works. I will use oa when, and if, it becomes necessary.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I agree with Iddee here. Fogging is as easy
as it can get in my book. No disturbance to
the hive for all practical purposes and very
inexpensive for sure. I run a Bonide as well
and have never had a flare up, not even close.

I bought a 7 pound pail of lab grade OA for
problems and/or purchased colonies that have
a big mite load.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Bruce

have you tried vaporising them? (with OA)
how were the results?
it worked great on mine

Dave

[ November 17, 2006, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Your design worked very nice Dave.

In a rush I did the trickling this fall
and liked how easy it is. Next year I
hope to get more vaporizors and perfect
that set up.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

ya know, lot's of folks use trickling and it obviously works fine, but offhand it seems to me that trickling any liquid on the girls at this time of year would be hard on em
forget the OA, I would think trickling syrup on em when it's cold would be bad
I guess it's an example of what seems like common sense to me ain't always so  

Dave


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

>but I have never heard of a bonide fogger flaming...

You need to trade that bonide in for something a little more exciting. Something with a KA-BOOOM to it :>)))

When oxalic is used properly, a single treatment will work for the entire year. And then the mites can be essentially forgotten.

With FGMO, frequent treatments are needed. And even then, mite levels should be closely monitored.

The reason, oxalic gets 90% of the mites. FGMO gets 60% of them. The mite dynamics with the fogger are like those seen when using strips on pesticide resistant mites. It's treat, treat, treat, or two brood cycles latter there's big trouble.

Regards
Dennis
Thinking FGMO is a much better approach than organophospate strips, but oxalic will replace it.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

HI guys

Just finished my winter prep today, in time for the big game [GO BUCKEYES!]

It takes me about 15 minutes per hive to do the OA. But while waiting for the vaporizer to do its thing then cool off I put on the mouse guards after they have been treated (and this year then I wrapped some of the hives - not sure if I will wrap them all).

Not sure about the fogger though as I never tried it.

It does give you a little kick with the wires, kind of like dealing with TNT.









"There are few problems that can't be solved with high explosives."


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