# Are cedar shavings harmful to bees in a quilt box?



## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Karen of NH said:


> Showed my constructed quit box at my bee club last night and got a lot of guff. I made them in the screened bottom style of Laurie here on BS. I constructed removable pillows stuffed with cedar shavings. The guff came as "doesn't cedar repel bugs?" "your bees will be dead". Do you have any experience using cedar instead of pine shavings? What is your opinion?


Do cedar hives repel bees?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

dsegrest said:


> Do cedar hives repel bees?


I think hives are made of a different kind of cedar that isn't so smelly. Could be wrong though. I don't think it probably matters but why not just use pine? You can get horse bedding for like $4 for a lifetime supply sized bag.


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## Kathleen Bourn (Oct 31, 2014)

I just put quilts on all my Langstroths using cedar shavings (dog bed bedding) so I'm interested to hear any ideas about this.
The shavings I had are probably 10 years old which is why I used them. I had them laying around.
I also made a shim with an upper entrance and #8 on it. It has cross bracing so I can use it as a jar or sugar brick feeder. 
I had some garden weed block material so I fashioned it into a "box" and then put the jars and the cedar shavings in that within a super. I wanted to be able to remove the cedar shavings easily.
They seem to take the syrup fine and I would think that the shavings would help keep the syrup warm. Once it gets cold here I'll switch to sugar bricks.
The pieces of drain pipe around the jars are there so I can get the jars in and out without dealing with the shavings.

Any thoughts or ideas are appreciated!


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## HIVE+ (Jan 4, 2012)

I used cedar shavings last year on a couple of hives with no problem, and on all hives this year. Thus far they haven't absconded and should have no problems with moths.
Former club president uses cedar in summer to repel ants.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Lots of cedar hives with happy bees. In a quilt box application the air flow is up out of the box. There have been posts with pictures of swarms building in old auto gas tanks. Propolis is pretty aromatic stuff. Put all together, I think you can tell your detractors their ideas need airing out!


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## Matt F (Oct 7, 2014)

Lots of bees live in cedar hives and probably cedar trees (?) as well. The cedar won't be a problem, though I have to ask, are you sure it's cedar? I went looking for cedar shavings and only found "softwood" shavings which I assume to be primarily pine.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

I've burned cedar shavings in my smoker for 20 years, not had one single bee complain.


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

Karen of NH said:


> The guff came as "doesn't cedar repel bugs?" "your bees will be dead".


By that logic....
Lemongrass oil repels insects as well. I assume you have heard of citronella? And yet the honeybee nasanov attraction pheremone is usually substituted by lemongrass oil and geraniol. 

If you are feeling like a cheeky entomologist, it never hurts to politely inform ones peers that while bees are indeed insects, they are not bugs, as bugs are those insects in the order hemiptera like stink bugs, assasin bugs, boxelder bugs... Honeybees must have missed the memo


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## Karen of NH (Jan 30, 2014)

Matt F: All natural, kilned dried red cedar bedding.

JWCarlson: I feel that cedar would hold up better long term then pine to reuse them again. The shavings are larger than pine and not so much fine chaff. (Thinking of ventilation keeping the shavings lighter. I do use pine for my chicken coop and there is a big difference)

I went to the trouble of making "removable pillows" so that I could lift just a corner of them (the pillows) up to see through the screen, if the bees were on the top and needed feed or refill sugar bricks or fondant without disruption. 
I think it would be easier and less disruptive then lifting off the quilt box of shavings no matter what if cedar or pine is used.

I will definitely change to pine if I get any reasons not to use the cedar from this forum. I thank you all for helping me keep my bees safe and dry.
Karen


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## Andrey Limonchenko (Mar 29, 2013)

I have all cedar hives with and no issues. I have used cedar shavings for 3 years and had no bees complaining either. I have started using pine shavings due to not being able to readily get cedar shavings (Tracktor Supply carries them). 
The only benefit I see from cedar is that it still looks good after several years, not stained. 
In my experience it does not repel hive moths, the bees do. I had some brand new supers in garage last summer and the hive moths build a nasty nest there. A few pictures.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The guff came as "doesn't cedar repel bugs?" "your bees will be dead". Do you have any experience using cedar instead of pine shavings? What is your opinion?

I've been building boxes out of cedar when I get scraps for 41 years now. No issues. I've known many people who are using cedar shavings in their quilt boxes with no issues. Don't get your hopes up on wax moth repellent or Varroa repellent or SHB repellent... but there is no problem with cedar.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I think there are various kinds of cedar, lining a closet or cedar chest is different. I would do some research before giving a firm answer.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Karen of NH said:


> JWCarlson: I feel that cedar would hold up better long term then pine to reuse them again. The shavings are larger than pine and not so much fine chaff. (Thinking of ventilation keeping the shavings lighter. I do use pine for my chicken coop and there is a big difference)


To be clear, I said I don't think there is any reason not to use cedar. But I know how people's minds work... if one of your hives dies this winter are you going to blame the cedar? If so you should put pine in... that's all I meant. 

I just reused my pine this year in one of my quilt boxes. I burned the stuff out of the other one in my smoker as needed. I don't think you'll have any problem with the pine being "unusable". Good luck this winter!


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## jfmcree (Mar 10, 2014)

All of my hives are made from either Eastern White or Western Red cedar (Western Red is not a true cedar....) and I have no issues. I do not use cedar shavings in the hive.

The cedar aroma has no effect on bees. They cover the interior with propyllis and the "new cedar smell" is gone within a couple days. It may stick around longer with shavings exposed up top, but I haven't seen it be a repellant as wood. The cedar benefit is more protection against wood eating insects than moths. It does nothing to repel moths.

My Vivaldi boxes use burlap as insulation which would be an alternative for you if you are concerned about the effects of cedar shavings.

Jim.


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## kevindsingleton (Jun 6, 2014)

jfmcree said:


> The cedar benefit is more protection against wood eating insects than moths. It does nothing to repel moths.


Aren't "cedar chests" and closets lined with cedar intended to repel moths? Maybe a different kind of moth?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Aren't "cedar chests" and closets lined with cedar intended to repel moths? 

Yes.

>Maybe a different kind of moth?

Yes.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I often burn cedar shavings in my smoker too....no problems. I've read that cedar shavings are no good for chickens so I don't use them in the coop but so far so good for the bees.


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## Fishmaster50 (Apr 30, 2015)

Yes I built my boxes out of cedar and had no issues. But put pine shavings in QB. Just hope they make it thru the winter!!!


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## Cottonwood (Apr 16, 2013)

Karen, those were some awesome quilt boxes and I see no reason why using cedar shavings would not work well. If the above posts haven't put you at ease, give me a call and I'll come by and pick them up. I have a few hives that requested cedar, I'll give you a full report in the spring. 
Dane


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## Nardi (Jan 22, 2013)

I wish this question had been asked earlier. I just took cedar shaving out of ten quilt pillows because I was told they were bad for bees. I was also told the fabric for the pillows need to be 100% cotton, not cotton/poly blend. Anyhow, I'm making new pillows & hoping my bees have a easy winter.


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## Maddy (Jan 20, 2014)

I'm almost afraid to ask, but most of my fabric is cotton/poly blend...
Is polyester fabric harmful to bees?
I too, wondered about cedar shavings. I like the smell, but didn't want to harm the girls. I'm glad to read that they won't mind it.

~M


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

The polyester thing sounds a bit far fetched. In any case, my quilts are typically old pillowcases, used to the point that any chemicals they may have been initially treated with are long gone.

It might not be a bad idea to give the sacks a run thru a warm water cycle with no laundry additives before putting them on the bees. If nothing else, floral laundry scents would probably be a distraction for them.

A neighbor installed cedar lining on a closet in his basement. The smell was initially overpowering. It nearly cost him the sale of his house.

By comparison, I can stick my nose into the "cedar shavings" we bought from our local ag supplier (sold as pet bedding) and have to use my imagination to smell it. There are either very different types of cedar or very different parts of the wood. I would imagine that the aromatic parts are probably sapwood. And it may be that the really fragrant stuff is juniper.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

Many types of "cedar" growing in US, several of them are actually in cypress family.
Eastern red cedar is the one used in chests and closets to repel wool eating moths
There is also 
Eastern white cedar
Atlantic white cedar
Western red cedar
Alaskan yellow cedar
Port orford cedar
And a few less commonly available as lumber 
Most of them have strong and distinct smells. The odors results from volatile oils referred to as "extractives" that are deposited in the trees wood as it transitions into heartwood during growth (sometimes also contained in foliage). Many of these oils have anti fungal and or insecticidal/repellant properties. To the best of my knowledge the insecticidal properties require ingestion and are really only of concern with wood eating insects.
The oils are released when the wood is cut or abraded, so smell is initially strong then fades as they evaporate, and can be refreshed by exposing fresh wood via sanding or planing

Sometimes these volatile oils will interfere with cure of finishes like paint or varnish. Which is why it is often recommended to allow a rest period after final lumber surfacing before finishing....time for the initial large release to off gas. In a situation where air flow is restricted like a chest or tight closet this takes far longer, and painting such surfaces is generally not recommended.

Not sure how much all this info is relative to the OP's question. I just put it up because people are constantly talking about "cedar" as if they are all the same....which they are not.
Since the amount of oil available to evaporate is directly related to freshly exposed surface area, fresh shavings can be quite overwhelming. But being so thin, once they have released thier oils they are "spent" with no more buried in reserve.

I doubt that it's bad for the bees, but I could see where it may make some confusion/disruption in the hive at high enough concentrations, but I think it would be hard to get concentrations that high for any significant period of time.


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## Nardi (Jan 22, 2013)

I believe the issue with using polyester material was related to the ability to absorb moisture. I don't think it causes any problems, but I could be wrong. Sorry if this caused any confusion.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I particularly don't use recycled old sheets and pillowcases because of the residue of laundry chemicals in the old fabrics, particularly the chemicals in fabric softeners. You might be able to wash some (but not all) of the detergent residue out, but the fabric softeners will have gummed up the interstices of the fabric making it less permeable - which is precisely opposite of the fabric is supposed to do, and be.

I use use new, all cotton fabric (a medium-heavy weight twill, 9 oz) that until this year I bought at Jo-Ann's. They have stopped carrying it and I am trying something lighter this year. I wash it in cold water to get the fabric finishing chemicals out (bleaches, optical brighteners, starches for body, etc.) in cold water but then dry it on the line. The last step in making my QB's, after the fabric has been applied as tight as I can make it, is to re-wet it in hot water (box and all) and then dry it with an iron set at the hottest possible temp. This uses the heat-created shrinkage to add the final stretch and makes the fabric tight as a drum, which is what I'm aiming for. One of the reasons for using all-cotton is to get this shrinkage which isn't possible with blended fabric.

But I suspect that using cedar shavings and poly-blend old sheets won't kill your bees, either. Both, or either one, will be far better than not having a QB on at all. 

Enj.


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## Karen of NH (Jan 30, 2014)

Follow up on Cedar shavings use in quilt boxes. New findings from OP.

Most of the information I found about Cedar is from natural pesticide sellers with conflicting definitions on what kind of insect honey bees are.

New questions: Are honey bees pheromone driven insects or non-pheromone-driven insects? Google results to this question gives the examples below. Underlines are by OP.
And, If the aroma of Cedar disrupts pheromone signals of insects, would not the same be true for using HoneyBeeHealthy, ProHealth, wintergreen and lemon- essential oils inside the hive?

Cedar oil is a natural pesticide

from http://cedarpestcontrol.com/ .......The combination of cedar oil, ethyl lactate and water creates a highly effective insect repellent as well as a natural, biological solvent that kills insects, eggs and larvae by dissolving and breaching their protective shells. PCO has been designed to break the insect egg laying cycle of non-beneficial, pheromone driven insects without harming, people, pets, mammals, birds, fish, amphibians or beneficial sight driven insects like butterflies or honey bees.

from http://www.streefftreexperts.com/More-Info.html ……….…..cedar oil only needs to permeate in order to eliminate an insect. This works very well with pheromone-driven insects that need to follow a “chemical trail” in order to complete tasks. Insects like bees, wasps, butterflies and other non-pheromone-driven insects will simply stay away from this aroma.

from http://omegaanimalremoval.com/bee-control-and-removal .................As soon as the honeybees have found a new home and have started to build their honeycomb, the bee removal process can turn into a serious challenge, as bees are pheromone driven insects. Bees will always try their best to protect their newly formed colony and to return to the site of the honeycomb, even after the bees themselves have been removed. 

from http://www.cedarbugfree.com/product_pages/yard_pages/lawn_garden.html...................Cedar Bug-Free™ Plant Spray kills aphids, mealy bugs, whitefly, fruit flies, scale, Japanese beetles, ants, nematodes, mites, caterpillars and other common pests and then continues to work as a repellent. It is also a natural fungicide and miticide. In addition, our Plant Spray will not harm bee pollinators, beneficial insects, lady bugs, butterflies, frogs and toads.
How it Works: When insects and other arthropods are exposed to Cedar Bug-Free™ Plant Spray, the aroma of the cedar oil overwhelms their breathing system and triggers a suicide response—the spiracles (breathing pores) close and cannot re-open. The cedar oil and ethyl lactate formulation also dissolves the insect eggs and larvae, eliminating the next generation of arthropod, while the aroma of cedar disrupts their pheromone signals and creates a barrier of entry repellent to newly arriving pests. 

another related thread
http://www.beekeepingforums.com/threads/5183-Cedar-Oil-based-Pesticides


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## Karen of NH (Jan 30, 2014)

The breathability is the important factor when choosing the fabric for a quilt box as you want the moisture to go through, up, and out of the hive via an upper entrance. The moisture retaining material inside the QB is to protect any moisture that condenses above from dripping back down into the hive. Burlap, canvas, typically have less threads per inch then bed linens. The fabric that I found to be perfectly suited for QB pillows are prewashed, preshrunk, flour sac towels. Found them at Walmart-cheap.












I really like the ability to lift up a corner to peek in Feb.


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