# 12 frame dadant hive



## grumpybeeman (Jan 10, 2014)

Where oh where did the modified 12 frame dadant go? It was tall and almost too heavy to pick up when it's full of brood & honey. Does anybody have any frames from one of those hives sitting on a shelf somewhere? They'd be nice to use when mocking up dimensions on the table saw.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

check with dadant as it was thier monster. lol


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## grumpybeeman (Jan 10, 2014)

It was a pretty simple monster, and dadant did carry some stuff for it up until the early 90's for atleast 1 old timer in wi. I can imagine that it was the leftovers of a pallet from the 1960's that was left dusty for the 1 guy...But thats about it. Imagine what they'd have to make the top bars out of now to hold that much weight(comb & brood)... Did you ever see any of those 12 frames? The junk pallet pine in use today wouldn't stand a chance if you dropped it wrong. The frame ears would snap off like tooth pics. I've got wedge bottom bars on frames hand-ink stamped 1944 that are tougher than what the top bars of the frames are now.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_OdFrank _has some 12 frame hives ... see post #95 of this thread ....


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Where oh where did the modified 12 frame dadant go? It was tall and almost too heavy to pick up when it's full of brood & honey. Does anybody have any frames from one of those hives sitting on a shelf somewhere? They'd be nice to use when mocking up dimensions on the table saw. 

Assuming you are making it with one bys, the box is 19 7/8" by 19 7/8" on the outside. The frame rest is 3/8" wide and 5/8" deep. The box is 11 5/8" deep (a little more than a one by twelve) assuming you are making a separate bottom to normal dimensions. The frames are 11 1/4" deep. You can find plans on Beesource for standard frames, just change the 9 1/4" dimensions to 11 1/4". Since the bottom is seldom removed anyway, I'd be tempted to make it a bit taller and the box out of a one by twelve (which is 11 1/4").

It is a popular hive in Europe, particularlly France. Once in a while someone on here offers to make custom frames.
I have a few, but don't have any bees in any right now. Some of mine are 22 frames (32 1/4" wide).


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## grumpybeeman (Jan 10, 2014)

How are the top bars from the standard deep frames holding up when you've got a full comb of honey on both sides?...You're not having issues with the ears lifting up? You're going to need to post some pics of those frames on here. I'm getting sick of dragging different sized boxes around for small honey crops. What's the trick in doing the groves on the side bars for the top & bottom bar... Run dados through the chop saw cuts, then dice the side bars off with a bandsaw?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Rossman was selling 11 1/4" frames. You have to call, not in their catalog. I have never had problems with the topbar sagging, but the bottom bar sags on some. 
In the extracting room:


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## olddrone (Sep 16, 2004)

I had some in the 60's and 70's. At that time Western Bee Supply had them in stock. Are you sure they no longer have them? I'd be mildly surprised if not, as there were thousands of these in the Midwest. These boxes were not meant for moving...or for pollination. They were meant as a single brood deep, never to be lifted when full. They would overwinter just fine in WI, MN, etc. Check Western Bee Supply, and let the List know what you find. (But, they will not be in the catalog, you will have to call to get an accurate answer.)
Ron


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I asked Western Bee Supply and and they were out and I asked if they could make a run of them and was told their new equipment will not adjust to make the deep frames...


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

I like to have a few myself to go along with my other odd equipment


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I have been thinking about building a few 12 frame Dadant's, except I would shave the frames down to 1 1/4", then I could get 13 frames in it. I think the idea of much deeper comb for the broodnest was a good one when the idea first originated, but I assume it went the way of the dinosaur in later years because of the weight issue of the whole box and each individual frame by itself. With a box that size, I wonder how well the queen lays beyond the centermost 8 frames? I'm thinking during the peak brood rearing and swarming season you may want to rotate the outer frames of comb (if they are mostly worker cell and fairly empty) into the center of the broodnest to open it up and give the queen room to lay.


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## TPalmer (Jun 11, 2012)

jmgi said:


> I'm thinking during the peak brood rearing and swarming season you may want to rotate the outer frames of comb (if they are mostly worker cell and fairly empty) into the center of the broodnest to open it up and give the queen room to lay.


Myself, I always wondered how to handle swarm prevention with these large frames. Not like you can just open the brood nest and start another nuc with them.


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## grumpybeeman (Jan 10, 2014)

TPalmer said:


> Myself, I always wondered how to handle swarm prevention with these large frames. Not like you can just open the brood nest and start another nuc with them.


Box-net-etc. If you read the old books, that's how some of them used to deal with the skeps.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I am in Menomonee Falls, Send me a PM, i will look next time I am at the shop. I think threre is one frame in the rafters, and we use a stack of 3 as a scraping stand.

Roland Diehnelt


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## grumpybeeman (Jan 10, 2014)

jmgi said:


> I have been thinking about building a few 12 frame Dadant's, except I would shave the frames down to 1 1/4", then I could get 13 frames in it. I think the idea of much deeper comb for the broodnest was a good one when the idea first originated, but I assume it went the way of the dinosaur in later years because of the weight issue of the whole box and each individual frame by itself. With a box that size, I wonder how well the queen lays beyond the centermost 8 frames? I'm thinking during the peak brood rearing and swarming season you may want to rotate the outer frames of comb (if they are mostly worker cell and fairly empty) into the center of the broodnest to open it up and give the queen room to lay.


Alot of the duragilt type foundation and old wax foundation for the big hive frames would be made/modified with communication holes like the duragilt that is sold today...Some old guys would plug holes in the corners so the bees could get around inside the hives easier.


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## grumpybeeman (Jan 10, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> I asked Western Bee Supply and and they were out and I asked if they could make a run of them and was told their new equipment will not adjust to make the deep frames...


That's a fancy way of saying we have no desire to square up fences and jigs to do a small batch of frames that only one person wants in a small amount. They'd have to reset everything SQUARED-ZEROED jigs, fences, depth adjustments, etc.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

The frame is the same exact thing as any other frame except for one main thing, the length of the sidebar. Unless their machines are way more complicated than I think, seems they could make a couple adjustments easily to do a run of the longer sidebars every now and then for their stockpile.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>That's a fancy way of saying we have no desire to square up fences and jigs to do a small batch of frames that only one person wants in a small amount. 

They had been doing it since they started in business and up until about 2002 or so, so I think it may actually be that their new automated frame cutting equipment won't adjust that far as they said.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

11 1/4" endbars should really be 3/8" thick because they bow easlily with wiring. That would make the top and bottom bars different. The Rossman frames bow with wiring, but work adequately. 11 1/4" frame bottom bars also bow if too thin. The biggest problem is finding an extractor to fit them when some honey purging is necessary.


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## grumpybeeman (Jan 10, 2014)

What's the tightest frame to box ration a guy could shove in a 10 frame langstroth?... 10 frames are hard to pull out of the box, but can be loaded up with large italian bees drawing out the comb. Laying, drawing, etc. If a person were to be working with small bees...Can the frame amount with modification(homemade frames) be pushed higher?...12 doundation in a 10 frame box, etc?


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## grumpybeeman (Jan 10, 2014)

odfrank said:


> 11 1/4" endbars should really be 3/8" thick because they bow easlily with wiring. That would make the top and bottom bars different. The Rossman frames bow with wiring, but work adequately. 11 1/4" frame bottom bars also bow if too thin. The biggest problem is finding an extractor to fit them when some honey purging is necessary.


What about cross pinning with a small steel rod? I vaguely remember old pre 40's equiptment with solid metal pins..Unless that was for frame wiring/not support of the end bar.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> _OdFrank _has some 12 frame hives ... see post #95 of this thread ....


That's not a 12 frame hive. It has 13 frames in it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> That's not a 12 frame hive. It has 13 frames[HIGHLIGHT] in it.[/HIGHLIGHT]


You are wrong! :no: Only 11 frames are "_in it_". There are 2 outside it. 




... since we are splitting hairs ....


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> You are wrong! :no: Only 11 frames are "_in it_". There are 2 outside it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 u r rite :applause:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> You are wrong! :no: Only 11 frames are "_in it_". There are 2 outside it.
> 
> ... since we are splitting hairs ....


That's right. It's a 13 frame box w/ 11 frames in it, w/ lots of room for burr comb.

I don't have as many hairs to split as many. Being follicularly challenged.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I appreciate you folks using my hives as a discussion topic. I just today washed that stand for re-establishment, sans the Gargantuan frames which I have cut down to 11 1/4". It was somewhat of a success, I see the hive next to it has four square mediums on it, a 200lb. crop.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I did mine with a 1/16" welding rod horizontally across the center. It wasn't pulling on the sides so it didn't bend the end bars in. But that was usually with foundationless. I did a few with 4.9mm plastic and a few with 4.9mm wax also. I put the welding rod on the wax one as well.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

grumpybeeman said:


> Where oh where did the modified 12 frame dadant go? It was tall and almost too heavy to pick up when it's full of brood & honey. Does anybody have any frames from one of those hives sitting on a shelf somewhere? They'd be nice to use when mocking up dimensions on the table saw.


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?279794-Special-delivery-arrived&highlight=dadant


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## bentonbee (Jan 31, 2007)

I have made and am making some of these modified Dadant boxes and frames. I have done 3 different things on the frames at different time:
1. Ordered them from Rossman bee supply. They don't show them on their website. But did make me some. They are not set to be the width between frames that the Dadants said they should be when the Dadants designed these hives.

2. I cut some of my own frames out using a groove in the top and bottom bars.

3. I took some regular Hoffman frames like you can buy from bee suppliers, and made cut my own end bars and drilled a couple of holes in them for wiring. I then used nails to space the frames like the Miller and Killian frames design. 

I had a fellow who had a saw mill cut me some wide boards to make the brood chambers. AS you all know you can't buy a board wide enough at most lumber years. Some people have made their boxes out of 3/4 in thick plywood. The Dadants in one of their books said that since it is hard to buy wide enough lumber any more to make these deep hive boxes, you could use tongue and groove lumber to build the boxes and have the joint towards the top. Cover the joint with a 1x2 that doubles as a handle and a rest for the lid. 

Dadants still sell the wired foundation for these deep frames, but you have to order 25 lbs box fulls...and they don't always carry it in stock. It of course is not small cell foundation.

Brother Adam used these hives with one more frame than the Dadants. Dadants had 11 frames and Brother Adam made is a wee bit wider with 12 frames. The Dadants recommended using follower boards on the outside of the frames, They had an interesting design. They made the follower boards not as wide as the inside of the the hive, but they used a piece of fabric that was kind of made to bow out so that it would catch the inside of the hive. Kind of like a half of a tube that was stapled, nailed to the end of the follower board. They claimed it helped insulate the hives. I also have been making a double wall on one end like the Dadants recommended so that in the winter, this double wall side is on the North side. 

I like these hives alot. I only have to look through 12 frames, not 18 or 20 in a double Langstroth brood chamber. The Dadants swore that their deep hives didn't swarm as much, so did Frank Pellett. However, CC Miller tried a few and didn't see much difference over the Deep Langstroths in swarming.

Remember that the Dadant's original big hive was longer than the Langstroth. They shortened them later so that the Langstroth supers could fit on top, and called it a Modified Dadant hive.

Some people don't want them because they want all the frames the same size. To each his own.
Some people say why would I want a hive that big, when I can't move it? Well I use a two wheel cart and can move them around fine. They wheel right up on my trailer. Do I have all Modified Dadant hive bodies? No like Michael Bush like to experiment a bit. 

Good luck on your Modified Dadant hives. I have a youtube video that shows some of the hive bodies and frames I made. Just google modified dadant bee hive and it will probably come up.
Mike Townsley in Iowa


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## grumpybeeman (Jan 10, 2014)

bentonbee said:


> The Dadants swore that their deep hives didn't swarm as much, so did Frank Pellett. However, CC Miller tried a few and didn't see much difference over the Deep Langstroths in swarming.


What strains/breed of bee was the preferred choice with Dadants original large live?... "the Dadants swore"... What era are we talking about so we can narrow it down. Did any of the earlier manufacturers base framed boxes on skep practices of netting swarms? Force swarming of large frame hives? What type of bee did you have in the old style large hives?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

The modified Dadant hive is getting more and more popular in Germany. Brother Adam propagated that hive and about 10 % of all beekeepers over here use the 10/12 frame Dadant hive. You can buy those hives at almost every beekeeping supplier. It is sort of a hype over here, since a many beekeepers are very sucessful with that hive. More honey, less work. 

Most use that hive with shallow supers. The one deep room has a divider/follower board which is used in early Spring to keep the bees tight on the broodnest. (On about 5-8 Dadant frames.) This way almost every brood comb is filled with brood wall to wall. This also pushes/presses the bees up into the supers. 

The hive is used with Buckfast bees that have been selected for non-swarming. Hive is checked regularily for queen cells. Cells are teared down one time or two times. That is sufficient for some Buckfast bees to stop swarming altogether. If they start queen cells a third time, the old queen is removed and this hive will not be used for further breeding. That's it. So swarm prevention is mostly done by breeding. 

There is a brochure in German language about keeping bees in a modified Dadant hive. (50 pages.) The author uses 10 frame hives but propagates 12 frame hives. See: http://www.imkerei-schwarz.de/content/Broschuere-Dadant-A5-web.pdf


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## grumpybeeman (Jan 10, 2014)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> The modified Dadant hive is getting more and more popular in Germany. Brother Adam propagated that hive and about 10 % of all beekeepers over here use the 10/12 frame Dadant hive. You can buy those hives at almost every beekeeping supplier. It is sort of a hype over here, since a many beekeepers are very sucessful with that hive. More honey, less work.
> 
> Most use that hive with shallow supers. The one deep room has a divider/follower board which is used in early Spring to keep the bees tight on the broodnest. (On about 5-8 Dadant frames.) This way almost every brood comb is filled with brood wall to wall. This also pushes/presses the bees up into the supers.
> 
> ...


Are the days of the apiary house over? I'm basing my knowledge off of bavaria & east germany. I'm wondering how the 12 frame/modified style would work in an enclosed setting. Are side entrances being used much these days?...I was intrigued by the concept of air entrance into the brood nest and how to avoid it with bottom board design.


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## bentonbee (Jan 31, 2007)

Grumpybeeman,

What strains/breed of bee was the preferred choice with Dadants original large live?... "the Dadants swore"... What era are we talking about so we can narrow it down. Did any of the earlier manufacturers base framed boxes on skep practices of netting swarms? Force swarming of large frame hives? What type of bee did you have in the old style large hives? 

Time period they tested as 1854-1920 near Hamilton IL. The Dadants were using german black bees and Italians on these hives. CP Dadant tested and tested hives. When he tested hives, he didn't just make 2 of them to do a test. He build 50-100 hives or more and tested many different sizes and types of hives. 
The Dadants kept bees for many many years, and besides selling bee equipment they had many hundreds of hives. End entrances were being used. CP wrote a good book called the Dadant System of Beekeeping. You can read it here- https://archive.org/details/dadantsystemofbe00dada
I bought a hard copy on Amazon.
By an enclosed setting you mean a bee house with multiple hives in it?
I think they would work fine in there, as would a langstroth. Just design your house for them.
I think the bees need air entrance into the brood nest...they do in the wild. It is a matter of us bee keepers managing the entrance.

As someone else said, the follower board works well to manage a smaller colony in a big hive.
Mike in Iowa


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## grumpybeeman (Jan 10, 2014)

bentonbee said:


> Grumpybeeman,
> 
> By an enclosed setting you mean a bee house with multiple hives in it?
> I think they would work fine in there, as would a langstroth. Just design your house for them.
> ...


Bentonbee. You will undertand much better what I'm referring to if you google Bienen Haus then go to google images. Bernard Heuvel, could you please give us some insight into the bienen haus, and if you know of anyone incorporating the 12 frame, modified, large box hives, etc into the bienen haus & hive concept?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

No, the Dadant hives are not placed into a beehouse. I reckon this is not possible or at least has many disadvantages. The Dadant hives are placed in outyards, like any other modern hive. Beehouses are disappearing in Germany for several reasons. The first reason is, that they are expensive to build and maintain. Second reason is, one is more or less forced to move bees from crop to crop because one location doesn't hold enough nectar for all the season. Third reason is, that modern bees are breed such way, that they do not fit into this tiny hives that are used in beehouses.

There are of course some beehouses left, but the majority has bees in modern hives. (For an example of a restored beehouse, see: http://www.bienen.mirkoseidl.de)

There is no significant advantage keeping bees in a special beehouse other than protection from the weather. While working the hives, so you can work at rainy days. (I do work bees in the rain outside, not a worry.) Or the hives itself. You do not need to wrap them. In Springs like last year where it had been cold for a long period and until summer, the beehouses were in advantage. While other hives in the outside stopped brooding due to the cold, the hives in the beehouse continued to brood and build up very strong. Significantly stronger than the hives outside. So in exceptional/extreme weather a beehouse has an advantage. But that's about it.


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## bentonbee (Jan 31, 2007)

I see what you are talking about. And the small hives. I was reading though an old American Bee Journal a couple of months ago...can't remember which one it was! Anyway they had a small story and photo of a guy in the US back at the turn of the century who had his hives inside his bee house. He had big bee hives in it. Said he could work on his hives in the rain too. It was like a building that had 8 sides or so (can't remember all the details) and the hives exited out the sides of the bee house. The story said he had very good success. The building had to be high enough that he could put his supers on top. I have a question for Bernhard, aren't the bees cross when it is raining out? Even though you are inside the building? And how do you see eggs and stuff? I need to hold the frame so the sun shines on it to see the eggs...I can't imagine doing it in a building.

Thanks for your input.


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## Goran (Oct 27, 2012)

Transparent roof helps.. 
Here migratory beeks use a lot bee containers ( vary in sizes) - "movable beehouse". And packing - just put on a truck load and drive to next forage. There are various designs ( for lang, even dadant, for hives which You work with frame not a box -AŽ hive, even long hives). What I liked in my modest contact with these containers, when enter inside smell of honey, propolis, etc.. is all around You and I enjoy in that.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I came across this picture of my Brother Adam hives with a crop. The picture properties say 2012 but it is more like the early 2000's. Hives two and three from the closer end of the row are Langs. Each square medium super is in excess of 50 lbs. of crop. Hives seven and nine are topped with a Lang size box because I ran out of square boxes to fit, the brick holds on the board to serve as a roof over the open gap. So eight square boxes and one Lang equals about a 450lb crop. I have used these hives along side Langs since I visited Brother Adam in 1978, and these side by side crops convince me over the years that they are more productive than Langs and at a easier to manage height when they go crazy on a honey crop. But look out when they swarm, you will see a grown man cry when they fly off into the distance.


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## bentonbee (Jan 31, 2007)

Just for information purposes, I found the photo I was referrring to of the man who had bees in an house F.J. Mongin near Green Bay Wisconsin had a round bee house. From 1923 American Bee Journal April page 189

Here is the weblink to the photo I took of the page:

http://www.thebigbeehive.com/Beehouse.JPG

You can see a picture of the inside of the bee house and read a little bit about it on the column next to the photo.

Mike in Iowa


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

bentonbee said:


> He had big bee hives in it.


In the beehouses here 15-40 hives per beehouse are usual.



bentonbee said:


> aren't the bees cross when it is raining out?


Yes, but they do not fly into the darkness of the beehouse, rather seek for the trouble maker outside the beehouse. Of course some get you inside the house sometimes.



bentonbee said:


> how do you see eggs and stuff?


That is a problem. A good point.


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## REDWOOD (Feb 5, 2014)

Brother Adam modified the Dadant hive to accommodate his Buckfast queens as the British National hive was too small 
http://beehivejournal.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/modified-dadant-hive.html


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## learner51 (Nov 2, 2015)

Would love more information and resources regarding these hives. Found a 92yo beekeeper in poor health needing to sell his. Didn't know what they were when we went to visit. My mentor ran nearly 1000 hives commercially many years back but had never seen those and didn't want to bother with them himself but suggested they could work for a time. Much of the boxes look to be in poor condition due to age, yet in the mind of the owner they are still brand new and wants more than our mentor things is reasonable. Bees themselves look to be healthy.


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