# Possible 100 watt bulb for warmth



## Will O'Brien (Feb 22, 2006)

Bees have made it for thousands of years without heaters so I wouldn't start with them now.


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## exmar (Apr 30, 2015)

Cheap and thermostat are kind of mutually exclusive, particuarly as you'll need a "line voltage" Hi Amp contacts, don't use a low voltage house thermostat. FWIW, Before we got county water out here, we had a shallow well pump in a concrete block pump house. Only one course of block above ground with a cover like a hive cover that fit all around and was insulated. To prevent freezing, we'd hang a 60W bulb over the pump. It worked. Without it, frozen, cracked pump housings. Your 100W bulb probably won't need a T'stat. I thought bees did a good job of temperature regulation on their own without supplemental heat needed?

Good luck,


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I tried it 30 years ago and it was a disaster. Bees will mob the light and get cooked if you don't have a hardware cloth barrier between the bees and the bulb. Healthy bees don't really need help when requirements for shelter and food reserves and mite measures are being met.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Not commenting on whether this is a good idea because I don't know.

If you can't find a brooder thermostat you can increase the capacity of any house heating thermostat by using a relay. Need a transformer to power the relay coil. Any heating mechanic will have the stuff you need. If you wire two bulbs in series they will produce less visible light, more infrared. Perhaps less confusing to the bees. Its how we used to keep baby chicks warm.
Bill


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You guys are all correct.
With a strong hive they can take care of the mites and
brood rearing. However, I'm trying to save a few nuc
hives that is brooding up too early. Because there is a
cold snap going on right now this will impact their development
and ability to survive this cold. Estimate that these kind
of weather will continue for another 2-3 months while they are
brooding. Yes, they are low in population now after the older bees
are dead. So a warmer hive environment will give them a better chance to survive this winter.
We are in a mild winter area so can check on them to add feeds
when needed. They should not be in a cluster mode affected by the
frosty weather when brooding up. All bees should be in their free roaming mode
now. This is a critical moment to see if they can survive another month
or 2 to have some winter replacement bees. That is why the idea of using a light bulb should work.
Of course, to screen the bees out first and don't let them see the light using the black cloths.


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## markus2 (Nov 6, 2015)

I believe that a 100 watt light bulb will be putting out some extreme heat all around the bulb surface. If there is any wax within 3-5 inches of the bulb...it may cause the wax to start melting near the bulb resulting in a big mess. I realize it is thermostatically controlled but by the time the temperature sensor is satisfied the damage may have already occurred.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I tinkered around with this some years ago when I had a nuc cluster that was too small to keep itself warm. 

You can do this successfully without a thermostat by using smaller wattage bulbs which will not overheat the cluster, it is better to stay under the maximum temperature and let the bees bring it up to the proper heat level, they can do this better than you can without overheating the brood. 

I found an old Chandelier and removed the bulb sockets and wired two of them together end to end and taped them to a thin strip of aluminum running length ways, the aluminum lays against the bulbs acting as a heat sink which helps to make the bulbs last longer. The 2 watt Chandelier bulbs can be purchased at Dollar stores and with a double bulb set-up like pictured below you can unscrew one bulb if needed to lower the wattage from 4 watts to 2 watts. As you can see in the photos I also kept a probe thermometer in the box as well so that I could monitor the heat level from outside the hive. 

I did find that the bees ignored the colored lights and had no problems with mobbing the light as Lburou experienced with the clear bulbs.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Michael Bush had a page or two on his website about this subject. He might have used an aquarium heater and other strategies.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

I've had good luck placing a weak colony or split on top of a stronger colony with a double screen dividing them. The migratory lids have a auger hole for ventilation.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I bought a beehive heater from warmbees.com this November. Using it to overwinter some small nucs and caged queens. it's not cheap, but the bees seem to like it just fine. It has 2 settings, 40 degrees and 70 degrees. I have it set on the low one just to keep them from freezing, but we've had some crazy warm weather and the hollies are blooming along with other stuff so the bees must think it's spring. I'm pretty happy with this setup because their is no "light" for the bees to be bothered by, and it's flat so it fits against the combs. Like the OP said, the heater isn't for a regular size colony (or even a failing one), the heater is being used for unusual circumstances in a bee yard.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1238453019514559.1073741855.687315994628267&type=3


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

By some accounts, higher the temp, the more active the bees are, more they eat, more they have to get rid of... and overall it ends up working against. 
I am sure with good research, someone can find out optimal temp settings for auxiliary heat.. but until then, good thermal insulation with moisture management practice works best, I am told. 

BTW, I am told same with chickens, have 5 and up, eliminate draft, provide good ventilation and leave them be.

Edit: Read OP need/justification. Suggestion to keep at 40-50F sounds like good idea.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

DaisyNJ said:


> By some accounts, higher the temp, the more active the bees are, more they eat, more they have to get rid of... and overall it ends up working against.



Heating a hive can be justified from the goals one has in mind for doing so if the goals are sound, adding heat to an otherwise normal hive throughout the winter would be a bad idea here where I live, however some places with extreme colder climates like Canada some beekeepers will keep the hives warmer by wintering them in an environmentally controlled building to keep the hives from freezing over the winter.

The OP seems to have the goal in mind to start the hive brooding earlier than normal, and as long as there are warm spells for the bees to get out and defecate he shouldn't run into too many problems other than keeping the feed going to them.

The nuc hive I experimented with had a cluster too small to generate enough heat to stay alive over winter so a little help was need on my part. Most people would just combine such a hive before winter started but I enjoyed the experimenting.

I do agree with you about the 40-50 degree target range, if one was to heat a hive without using a thermostat it would be wise not to have too much wattage, just enough to keep the inside temperatures from falling bellow 40 degrees and the bees can take it from there. Too much heat and the temperatures could skyrocket on warmer days, it's best to use minimal heat (2 to 4 watts for a small nuc) and let the bees balance the upper end of the hive temperature .


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

I use a *60 watt *light bulb in my dog's house to keep it warm, and we're a heck of a lot colder than Sacramento. Right now the temp at my back yard thermometer is 19F. The temp in the 3.5 L X 2.5 ft W X 3ft H doghouse is 61F. 
Don't under-estimate the heat generated by an incandescent light bulb!


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## markus2 (Nov 6, 2015)

I'm using four 15 watt bulbs for heating each one of my 3 hives. The temperature controller for each hive is set to 40 deg. F. The bulbs only turn on when the ambient hive temperature is below 39.5 degrees F and switch off when it climbs to 40.5 deg F.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

WWW said:


> Heating a hive can be justified from the goals one has in mind for doing so if the goals are sound, adding heat to an otherwise normal hive throughout the winter would be a bad idea here where I live, however some places with extreme colder climates like Canada some beekeepers will keep the hives warmer by wintering them in an environmentally controlled building to keep the hives from freezing over the winter.


There are some commercials wintering indoors, however the majority winter outside. There is 2 or 4 hives on a pallet with an insulated wrap covering the hives. Winter losses in Western Canada were less than 10% last winter. Winter to date as been quite warm but not over yet. If the warm trend continues, there will likely be low winter loss numbers again.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

markus2 said:


> I'm using four 15 watt bulbs for heating each one of my 3 hives. The temperature controller for each hive is set to 40 deg. F. The bulbs only turn on when the ambient hive temperature is below 39.5 degrees F and switch off when it climbs to 40.5 deg F.


Sounds like a nice a set-up, with a temperature controller those 15 watt bulbs should give a fast response to temperature changes, when running the low wattage bulbs without controllers my nuc temperatures would fluctuate somewhat with the changes in the outside temperatures but that has been some time back so I don't recall what the temperature swing was however it was within reason.





mgolden said:


> There are some commercials wintering indoors, however the majority winter outside. There is 2 or 4 hives on a pallet with an insulated wrap covering the hives. Winter losses in Western Canada were less than 10% last winter. Winter to date as been quite warm but not over yet. If the warm trend continues, there will likely be low winter loss numbers again.


I hope the nice weather continues and we all end up having a nice winter for a change .


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks all for the supports and positive feedback.
Yes, we are in a mild winter climate with good reason to justify for
this set up. One reason is that I did not treat enough to take 
out all the mites during this winter. Last winter they crashed
my 2 strongest hives that I had to do a combine to allow them to chose their
own queen out of the 2. This winter I'm testing my homemade oav
gadget under the hives. When the bees are in cluster mode the mites
are there with them doing their damage. Without the free roaming bees the oav treatment through out the winter months is not that effective.
Reason 2 is that they are starting to brood up earlier than usual but
we still have a long way to go. Four out of 6 frames have capped winter
broods on last hive inspection a few weeks ago. In Jan and Feb is when we have the arctic cold snaps caused by the El Nino effects along with the rains too.
Seems like all the rains went to the east coast southern region for now.
But it is just the beginning for these crazy weather. 
I plan to put in a 100 watt bulb for each hive in an empty deep above
the honey super. I winter them in one deep hive box only with the honey
store on top. I can open up the center of the honey frames for the heat
to triggle down so that they can take the 1:1 syrup along with the patty
subs and Lauri's sugar bricks. These hives will have a therometer in them
to monitor the hive temp. As long as they do not go below 40F everything
should be fine. 

Markus2, what temperature controller do you use? Any suggestion
for a good one or where to get them?


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## markus2 (Nov 6, 2015)

beepro,

I am currently using the following controller for all my 5 hives. These work great and are very accurate and simple to use. They are a bargain for what they can do. I've been using them for the last 4 years. I also use 1 for keeping the water from freezing in the chicken coop.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0... controller&qid=1451790471&ref_=sr_1_3&sr=8-3


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I use a 100 watt & a 60 watt bulb, with a thermostat, in a wooden box about the size of 2 deeps, to warm 5 gallon buckets of crystallized honey. It usually gets the job done in about a day. The thermostat is a recycled electric baseboard control unit (extreme overkill, but free)

I suspect that much heat might kill a hive in less time unless it was much colder than Sacramento probably ever gets. If you are certain you going to try this, maybe start with a 25, or 40 watt bulb? Can you set up a "dummy" box and check the temps beforehand?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Markus2, I always try to do a price comparison on ebay and
amazon before buying anything. Do you use one controller for
each hive? I would like to know how are things connected to the
controller. Can you give some description of your set up?
I would think setting up a queen cell incubator is much the
same process, right?

The 100 watt bulb will heat up a deep box within the hour.
So I have to put some foil and a towel underneath to keep the heat out of the
main nest a bit. Will definitely check the temp and do some trial run before 
putting it to use. I have killed too many bees already.


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## markus2 (Nov 6, 2015)

beepro,

I decided to use 1 controller for each beehive (for best individual temperature accuracy of each hive). You could possibly get away with 1 controller for multiple hives (with possible less accuracy of each hive). I have put together a video to show others what I did to provide supplemental heating (see the link below). The video talks about my temperature controllers at 3 minutes, 50 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlDN1Qo4OUc

Also, if you would like...I can quickly draw up a schematic of my set-up and upload it to here. Just let me know!


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## matrout76 (Feb 2, 2013)

markus2 said:


> beepro,
> 
> Also, if you would like...I can quickly draw up a schematic of my set-up and upload it to here. Just let me know!


Please do! 

I'm planning on buying that same controller soon for a few Bee-related projects. I am going to make a "clarifying" box out of an old cooler to put crystallized honey into and maintain 100F for a few days so it will go back to being liquid. I also plan on making a wax-melter and a honey-warmer prior to bottling when its cold.

Thanks!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Highs of 55+ and lows of around 45 degrees and you're worried about heating your beehives...?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I tried heating experiments when I first started. It's a mistake unless you are in a bitter -Canadian-Minnesota type climate and are trying to overwinter tiny colonies as queen castles. That is the only time I would attempt supplemental heating.
After going through a winter last year that was too warm, had active bees and the issues that resulted, that broke me of worrying about keeping bees warm. The more inactive during winter the better. (Within reason of course)

If a colony is small, but has _no mite issues and was well prepped in fall_, it's surprising how small a colony can be and successfully overwinter. But you need to keep in in the smallest sized housing that is appropriate for it's size so it can retain it's own generated heat.
And that size can be smaller than you think. A colony will tighten up like the contents of a foodsaver bag when the vacuum sucks out all the air. 

3-4 frames of bees in a double deep isn't a good set up. Better off in a small single with a sugar brick directly on the frames, directly above the colony and a low _insulated_ lid directly above that. You can save the honey frames and add them above the colony in spring when they get a good start on growth and temps are more reliably mild.

While tiny healthy colonies can be overwintered, the smaller the colony, the more help they may need in spring to start growing. There needs to be enough bees to generate enough heat to rear brood. Shaking in some bees or combining small hives after collecting extra queens for other uses are some options. Feeding colonies that don't have enough foragers to collect natural feed sources of course.



60 degrees:










same colony at about 35 degrees:










100 watt bulb? That's what I use in my solar wax melter when the sun don't shine. If you are determined to do it, I'll be looking for something around a 20 watt size.










Just my opinion of course.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I remember when I first started I had a nuc that had reduced down to a a softball size of bees and queen by late winter. Advise that was given was to get rid of the queen and combine. Consensus was the queen must not have been any good.

But I knew it was a late summer made nuc with a virgin queen that just hadn't had enough time to build up much. That colony continued to live and that queen sure came in handy when a larger colony ended up coming out of winter queenless. The queen turned out to be a very good one, and I was glad I hadn't pinched her. I also got a taste of just how small a colony can be and still withstand the cold temps. It was about 3 half sized deep frames.

So the point I am trying to make is, it depends on why your colony is small if you should try to baby them in order to help them survive. 

When I overwinter mating nuc sized colonies now, early spring I just super them with five standard frames of bees, brood and feed taken out of a larger colony. The overwintered queen moves up to occupy the new frames and I have myself a strong nucleus colony to sell or to expand my own yard and filled mini frames left to carry on the next season of queen rearing. Without the help from the new frames some of those tiny colonies may not have the strength to build up well in spring.

Most of my mating nuc frames are in divided deeps in _standard _box's so I can easily super them with standard frames.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...n-overwintering-40-mating-nucs-on-mini-frames

I'm not expert, but this works fantastically for me.

This is a small top entrance from a mating nuc colony-December photo. Not wrapped or insulated except for the lid.

I am 3 hours from the Canadian border, but also 3 hours from the Pacific ocean. I get Northern based jet stream spells of temps in the teens or below, but my temps are usually moderated by my proximity to the Pacific.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Here's two items from amazon, I have used successfully;

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ificial-Heater-for-Bees&p=1361167#post1361167

Light bulbs may be too hot and they may attract bees. WWW seems to have fixed these problems with colored low watt bulbs. I don't know if the addition of light inside a hive would cause any stress or make the bee more active and consume additional stores.

The optimum temperature is about 40-45 deg, this is where the bees use the least amount of stores while clustered, get it too warm and you may have a bunch of flyers.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't heat my full size hives, but have heated some nucs. If you want to heat a hive, about 7 watts is about right. That's about what most of the terrarium heaters are. 100 watts is about 1400 percent too much heat. If you have a thermostat it should be set at about 32 F. At MOST 40 F. The ideal hive temperature is somewhere between those temperatures. 80 F is a disaster for wintering bees. Anything over that will shorten the lives of your bees and make them consume far too much of their stores.


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## markus2 (Nov 6, 2015)

I've tried 7 watts but it didn't really keep up so I decided to raise the wattage and let the controller dictate when and how long the bulbs should be on.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I know nothing about electricity. Only learn it from the you tube
vids to set up a solar system with battery backup. Two years already
turning that set up on 24 hours without using any of the free energy generated.
I mean have nothing to run on this set up yet. Did tested out this system before using a
small electric heat pad with success to heat up my 55 gal. plastic barrel 
22 frames hive all winter long.
In the 2nd pic of the 2 relays? plug into the light bulb wires, are these
2 relays come with the controller? Or do I need to buy them separately and from where?
And is the other end, the smaller wires connected to the
temp. controller? Can you give a detailed description of how everything is
connected? This might help when I set one up later on connected to a 100 watt
bulb to allow the controller unit to take over. Set the temp at 50F that should
heat up the space faster than a 7watt bulb or whatever you have available.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

TC-21-Thermo-Cube-Thermostatically-Controlled-Outlet-Warm-Weather

These cubes should solve most of the temperature control issue under or above the hive connected
to a heat source. Both ebay and amazon carry them. The warm weather cubes have a range of 78 to 70 and
120 to 100F. There should be many application using these.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

If adding heat was truly helpful, many would do it. If I had bees that were brooding in winter, I'd leave them alone. It isn't a sustainable or desired trait. I've seen Italian bees breed themselves to starvation in winter. If it causes them to die, perhaps its not best to encourage that trait. Seems to me to be a flaw in their biological rhythm. I'd requeen them in spring if they live. Thats not good stock for next years breeding ( if you do that). What if you made 20 like that?.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I've tried 7 watts but it didn't really keep up...

It doesn't need to "keep up". It needs to NEVER keep up. I needs to never contribute to getting the temperature above 40 F. Bees should rest in the winter. The best case scenario is to keep them warm enough to save them some work, mitigate the subzero weather some and never warm enough to break cluster.


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## markus2 (Nov 6, 2015)

>It doesn't need to "keep up". It needs to NEVER keep up. I needs to never contribute to getting the temperature above 40 F. Bees should rest in the winter. The best case scenario is to keep them warm enough to save them some work, mitigate the subzero weather some and never warm enough to break cluster. 


My comment about 7 watts is that during the colder days (outside temp. around 0 - 10 deg. F) the 7 watt light bulb could not keep the internal ambient hive temperature above freezing (32 F). Therefore I needed to use higher wattage to keep it above freezing or otherwise this would defeat my purpose. My goal is to maintain temperature at 40 degrees F. It can be higher (as a result of outdoor temperatures) but I don't want it to go lower than 40 deg. F. This is just my personal preference. It's not right or wrong. It's based on all the research I have done. Besides, how are bees resting when they are struggling to generate their own desired temperatures? All I am doing is simulating as if they are living in a warmer climate down south and I don't need to worry about them freezing to death. They can break cluster and not perish.

>If adding heat was truly helpful, many would do it.
Maybe many don't know how to do it. That's the awesomeness of the internet (people sharing their wisdom). 

beepro,

Those are not relays that you see in the photo. The relays are inside the controller. All you need is the controller. I've experimented with those Thermo-cubes and they are not very accurate. Why not pay just a few more dollars and get something that has a wide range of desirable temperature settings and is very accurate. 
I will draw a schematic and post it here. Hopefully, it will help those who want accurate temperature control for any desired needs.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>the 7 watt light bulb could not keep the internal ambient hive temperature above freezing (32 F). Therefore I needed to use higher wattage to keep it above freezing or otherwise this would defeat my purpose. My goal is to maintain temperature at 40 degrees F. It can be higher (as a result of outdoor temperatures) but I don't want it to go lower than 40 deg. F. 

My experience is that I NEVER want it go ABOVE 40 F. I I was picking what I think would be ideal, that would be about 30 F. I don't care if it the internal temperature of the hive gets down to 0 F really, but I would like to mitigate those -27 F nights. My experience using a 7 watt heater on a nuc is that they never clustered at all with the heater on. If they did the queens on the ends would die. I didn't have a thermometer in the hive, but my guess is it was about 50 F or so in there all the time, which at the time I wanted since it was a queen bank. With a full size hive 7 watts was quite nice and they did cluster.

On a full size hive, I just don't see the point at all. In a nuc, the point is to mitigate those nasty subzero nights.

Active bees are short lived bees...


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Isnt wattage needed a function of heat produced by bees and rate of heat loss ? Honeybees survived cold for thousands of years, but not in an 3/4" think wood boxes, rather in well insulated, yet sufficiently ventilated old trees atleast few inches and above in thickness. 

I used 20w bulb for a chicken incubator project and 100w WAY too much to keep them at 98/99F and thats at 75 ambient and lot of ventilation. I built a controller system with temp sensors that would turn the bulb OFF at 99. 20w stayed off most of the time or flicker most of the time and never would stay on. 

Insulate well, provide means for moisture control and adequate ventilation. Then 

I would go with what Mr. Bush suggested but regardless, go with a system that can turn the bulb OFF based on HIVE internal temperature and not on outside temperature.


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## Matt F (Oct 7, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >I've tried 7 watts but it didn't really keep up...
> 
> It doesn't need to "keep up". It needs to NEVER keep up. I needs to never contribute to getting the temperature above 40 F. Bees should rest in the winter. The best case scenario is to keep them warm enough to save them some work, mitigate the subzero weather some and never warm enough to break cluster.


+1.

If you insist on adding heat, you should be targeting something small enough that it won't affect the natural bee rhythm and physiology. you want to help them, not change them. Well at least I think you do.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Hops Brewster said:


> I use a *60 watt *light bulb in my dog's house to keep it warm, and we're a heck of a lot colder than Sacramento. Right now the temp at my back yard thermometer is 19F. The temp in the 3.5 L X 2.5 ft W X 3ft H doghouse is 61F.
> Don't under-estimate the heat generated by an incandescent light bulb!



Yup .... in a factory I worked in putting myself through college, we welded up metal boxes that had a single 100 watt bulb inside. When we arrived we'd put our lunch in and by break time it was steaming hot.


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