# what breed of bee are you using



## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Hi Guys I had a couple of questions for you,
was wondering what breed of bee you use in your outfits?
The 2nd question, is there a difference between carniolans and italians? what are the differences?
frazz


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Using Russians now, switching back to italians over the next month or 2. I like the Russians for their mite resistance so far, but they winter in very small cluster and dont build quick enough in the spring for us (very early bloom). Not sure on the Carni vs. Italian never had Carnis before but Im sure someone will chime in.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

brood laying itailins


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## Naturegoods (Mar 12, 2010)

You'll notice that bee breeds are based on where the particular strain of bees originated from. Based on that principal my favorite breed would be my Presbytarians that originated from a swarm on a church soffet, followed by the Toyotas - yeah from a swarm at the local dealership.
Then we have the Elmira Garage cutout bee breed, the Little Marsh PA farmhouse bee...etc etc
Call them survivor bees - they lived long and prosperred without any attention from humans. Must have wintered well also but then some of them did enjoy the benefit of homeowner provided central heating


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

I just wanted to add to my original post a bit of detail as to why I want some input from anyone who has any experience of the 2 types breeds or whatever the corrct terminology is.
In NZ we have until just recently only had Italians we now have carniolans.
I have no experience with carnies at all so I was wanting to know how they do in Pollination and honey? how do they winter? what happens if they cross with Italians? whats their temperament like? do you prefer Italians or carniolans?
Please any feedback would be most welcome,
frazz


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Italians for increase, Carniolans for honey production.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Carni's tend to over winter with smaller clusters than Italians.
Therefore Carni's eat thru less stores than Italians over winter.
Carni's will not build up brood during a dearth so much as Italians will.
Italians tend to be more broody, Carni's are more conservative with stores, not wasting them on brood during dearth as much as Italians.
I notice more honey with less bees in Carni hives than in Italians.

I've been impressed with the Carni's ability to regulate brood production in relation to nectar flows, seemingly better than Italians, as I am in low/intermittent flow areas and in areas with too many hives for the bloom.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

We have run both Italians and Carnis. As of this year we are running all Carnis and replacing the Italian queens as they fail or during fall requeening. The main reasons have been listed above, but last year with a poor late summer and fall flow we had many Italian hives starve even before winter started. They don't shut down soon enough when it starts to turn cold or there is less nectar. Going into Calf. the Carnis did the best because they use less stores and come out better for the same reason as they all came out light from Calf. We have also noticed that the Carnis produce the same if not more honey and that may only be because they consume less during the season so there is more to pull. Anyway, Carnis hands down for us in a colder climate.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Carniolans and Italians.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

I have a mix of carniolans and italians. Besides coloring I can't tell the difference, everything else seems the same so far.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

Italian.

Tested carrnies, small winter cluster, hard to qualify for almond pollination in Feb. each year. But come April they (Carnies) realy jump up in size.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Do you notice any more swarming in Carnis over italians?


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## jeff123fish (Jul 3, 2007)

frazzledfozzle said:


> Do you notice any more swarming in Carnis over italians?


That depends, with carnis when times are good for the bees you have to stay ahead of them or they will swarm but if the flow stops or they have enough space before they get to congested they almost never swarm.


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## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

Dark Italians.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Thanks very much to all of you who took the time to reply I really appreciate it.
Frazz


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## honeydreams (Aug 10, 2009)

I have Italian Cordoven bees and I have New world Carnoilan hope I spelled that right? What I observe on both breeds is my Italian girls go to other hives and demand protection payments:lpf: ok all joking aside my italians build p fast are hogs when it comes to feeding they don't winter well as I would like. but they are very gentel do a good job on honey. My NW carnoilans work in rain, they produce honey they winter good. and they seem to keep a good balance on brood vs food advable. so next year I will have all carnoilians.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I use Carniolans. Sometimes Italians when I get in a pinch. The Italians need more food stores for winter, they tend to brood heavey at the moment weather turns nice. Which gets them into trouble with food stores when weather turns bad.

I buy Olivarez, Carniolans. But I am thinking they arnt pure Carniolans. They brood way to heavey and winter with huge populations, yet they do show some restraint in the spring with their initial brood expansion. I am thinking there probably is some Italian mixed in there. 
They give me real dark queens though, jet black sometimes, and that tells me they must be mostly Carniolan


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## ehallspqr (May 2, 2010)

Always used Italians but tried Carniolans at the suggestion of the Beekeeper that supplies most of the package bees in the area I live. I like em so far. Temperament is very good, perhaps a little more feisty than Italians. I live in the rainy cool Pacific Northwest USA and its been a especially miserable spring with perhaps only 6-7 days of sun since I installed them. 6 weeks in these Carniolans are doing very well despite the weather. I notice they forage when its colder and during moderate rain with no problem. Been feeding them about 1.5 quarts per week and this seems to be less than I remember with my Italians. They have filled 5 full frames with brood and 3 partial frames are well along to being drawn out. By contrast my friends Italians are raising about the same amount of brood but he's been feeding them twice as much. I noticed much less activity at his hives when its cold and/or rainy. Can't speak to their honey production or wintering abilities yet, so I am reserving final judgement. If your weather is cooler with a fair amount of rainy days you might give a couple hives a try to see how they compare.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

I have had a mixture. I am sure geographical locations matter most. Those who are up north but winter in the south seem to prefer Italians. those in warmer climates seem to prefer Italians. Those in colder climates seem to prefer Carniolians. 

5 of my 8 original colonies had darker queens and had queen cups [a Carniolian trait] last year and early this year. Everyone swarmed and I will not be making any honey from these colonies. 3 of my 8 were yellow colored queens and I never noticed queen cups [Italians methinks], and none swarmed and I have made and am making surplus honey from each colony.

*The Carniolan bee*
The subspecies A. m. carnica, from middle Europe, also has been a favored bee stock in the U.S. for several reasons. First, their explosive spring buildup enables this race to grow rapidly in population and take advantage of blooms that occur much earlier in the spring, compared to other stocks. Second, they are extremely docile and can be worked with little smoke and protective clothing. Third, they are much less prone to robbing other colonies of honey, lowering disease transmission among colonies. Finally, they are very good builders of wax combs, which can be used for products ranging from candles, to soaps, to cosmetics. 
Because of their rapid buildup, however, *carniolan bees tend to have a high propensity to swarm *(their effort to relieve overcrowding) and, therefore, *may leave the beekeeper with a very poor honey crop*. *This stock requires continued vigilance to prevent the loss of swarms.*

I had continued vigilance and they still swarmed. Mine had plenty of room and all had been checkerboarded or reversed brood boxes. I won't receive any honey crop from those that swarmed.

*The Italian bee*
Italian honey bees, of the subspecies Apis mellifera ligustica, were brought to the U.S. in 1859. They quickly became the favored bee stock in this country and remain so to this day. Known for their extended periods of brood rearing, Italian bees can build colony populations in the spring and maintain them for the entire summer. They are less defensive and less prone to disease than their German counterparts,* and they are excellent honey producers*. They also are very lightly colored, ranging from a light leather hue to an almost lemon yellow, a trait that is highly coveted by many beekeepers for its aesthetic appeal. 
Despite their popularity, Italian bees have some drawbacks. First, because of their prolonged brood rearing, they may consume surplus honey in the hive if supers (removable upper sections where honey is stored) are not removed immediately after the honey flow stops. Second, they are notorious kleptoparasites and frequently rob the honey stores of weaker or dead neighboring colonies. This behavior may pose problems for Italian beekeepers who work their colonies during times of nectar dearth, and it may cause the rapid spread of transmittable diseases among hives.

I will also add this. Though mine that swarmed had plenty of room they still swarmed. However, in the south, although I have not had SHB problems, it just seems to me if you give to much room you could have SHB problems. From now on, when I see queen cell cups, the queen goes. If they don't produce for me, I don't want them.

Kindest Regards
Danny


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Here's a web site that may be of help:
http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/genetics.html

I am curently using the Carniolan and italian Hygienic.
Ernie


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## danwyns (Nov 11, 2007)

fraz-- I'll for the most part echo what others have posted above. Carnis seem to shift gears faster than italians. Even up here where winters are pretty mild our carnis stop laying for the most part May-July whereas the Italians keep more brood through winter. In the spring the Carniolans start brooding up earlier and build faster so they catch up to Italians by the time any substantial flow (and gold kiwifruit pollination) starts in early oct. 

I wouldn't consider Carniolans inherently more swarmy than Italians, but greater pace of buildup means you'll need to be on your toes and attentive to the need fro space which can change in a hurry.

An additional benefit with the Carniolans is the tendecy to have a brood break winter interupts the varoaa life cycle which can help with controlling mite populations and may mean less treatments/$ for varoaa control


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Most of the above seems true to my small apiary experience with NWC, yugoslav carnies, Carn (SMR) X Russian, Russian X Cordovan Italian and Minn Hygienic. I would hasten to add that Russians are similar to Carnies but cannot draw comb as well, propolize, and laugh at mites. My favorite bees have been Georgia Italians most like mated to Russian and Carn drones (dark workers). The feral bees I have captured stunk to high heaven in that they succumbed to varroa in 4 months (only 2 swarms). Check out the Glenn Apiaries website, it is a quality business


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Me likes them yeller bees. me thinks russians are despickable!


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## TheYellowBee (Jan 20, 2008)

Carnolins produces tons of propilis have snapped a hive tool breaking a lid open on carnolin they are okay for increase survive pretty well and have an okay temperament I prefer Italians though better increase and are consistent honey produces less of up and down years with Italians my personal preference is Cardovan bees good on both side build up and production


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

TheYellowBee said:


> Carnolins produces tons of propilis have snapped a hive tool breaking a lid open on carnolin


You must of had a hybrid or caucasians, because carniolans are noted for their scant use of propolis. That and that they also cap the honey frames with snow white wax makes them a favorite for comb honey production.




BEES4U said:


> Here's a web site that may be of help:
> http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/genetics.html


It's been a while since I've seen a classic carniolan. I had them in my old operation and loved their atributes. So when I ordered queens from Glenn I should of known better since these bees are really a hybrid Carniolan X VSH. what ever the case, I was disappointed that the color of the queens were not black and the workers were quite colored too.

I'm hoping that Sue Cobey will have something available soon. A carniolan that fits the bill down to the T.


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## Southern_Sun (Jun 25, 2008)

I use Italians, and have not found any of the problems that others seem to have with them (ie not shutting down in winter, slow build up, poor honey production). 

My hives definately shut down once it gets cold, and most have a very distinct brood break. As for early build up, we are setting up mating nucs from the end of winter and put hives into kiwifruit pollination so early brood isn't a problem, and the honey keeps on coming!! 

More than the type of breed I believe that it is important to keep on top of the age and quality of the queens, regular re-queening is the key!!

Of course I do breed Italians so Im sure this will be taken with a grain of salt :shhhh:


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## madasafish (Aug 24, 2010)

Carnies and Buckfast/Carnie hybrid.

Carnies growing at a rate of knots in a TBH. Lots of propolis but manageable

The others are a swarm requeened so have to wait and see.

All very good tempered.. bare hands .


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

frazzledfozzle said:


> was wondering what breed of bee you use in your outfits?


Mutts.


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## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

i use pure Caucasians(mountain grey)


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## kenr (Sep 25, 2005)

Let me ask somthing here in western North Carolina we have three distinct necture seasons spring around the last of april,Mayfirst of June locust,pouplar trees.Dearth rest of June until about the second week of July Sourwood untill first week of August then last of August start fall flowers.My question is what race of honeybees would think would do the best in this area.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

suttonbeeman said:


> Me likes them yeller bees. me thinks russians are despickable!


Kudos Rick! I second that opinion.


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