# Nicot queen rearing system or graft?



## Steve Johnson (Apr 25, 2012)

Matt903 said:


> I want to raise my own queens this season. I have researched both the Nicot system and grafting, however I have zero queen rearing rearing experience besides cutting out swarm cells and placing them in mating nucs. I also only need around 30 queens or so, no big numbers. Any ideas or suggestions on which one to go with? Thanks


I used the Nicot some last year. It is convenient in ways, but there are many steps to it and the system has to be followed exactly or it won't work. And sometimes it won't work anyway. I put a queen in it one time and got many queen cells from it, and the next time got a Nicot box full of capped nectar. Still not sure how that happened. But i plan on using it this year again. I still haven't tried grafting yet so I can't compare to that.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

My first attempt at queen rearing, was to make a strong colony queenless (temporarily), then remove all the cells, except those I liked the placement of. I then removed the larva from these cells and replaced them with larva of my own choosing. Grafting them in from my chosen mother queens (MQ). This worked very well. Afterwards I obtained JZsBZs plastic cell cups and began grafting into them. It worked fine, so I've continued working in similar methods. Nicot and other graftless systems, are expensive, so I feel no real motivation to try them.


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## Jpoindexter (Oct 22, 2010)

I've tried the Nicot system several times and I wasn't too impressed. I've had much better luck with grafting, so that's what I focus on.


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## Sharpbees (Jun 26, 2012)

I tried Dadant's EZ queen system which is a modified form of the nicot system, it works if you raising just a few queens and you could get 30 queens in a season easy enough. Once I got past the mental block of trying to graft and started raising my own queens, I kick myself for wasting the money on the non grafting system. Grafting isn't hard to do it just takes some practice to get decent at it but you'll get more cells accepted and will spend less money. Try grafting and enjoy learning something that will be of great value to you as a beekeeper.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I would try grafting first. It would only cost you a few dollars for some cups and a grafting tool. You can make a cell bar from an old frame. I pretty much taught myself how to graft from reading here and watching youtube videos. Its not that hard. Making up your starter hive and making up the mating nucs is a bigger learning curve than the grafting itself. If you just want the queens for personal use skip the mating nuc part and just put the cells where you want queens.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

johng said:


> I would try grafting first. It would only cost you a few dollars for some cups and a grafting tool. You can make a cell bar from an old frame. I pretty much taught myself how to graft from reading here and watching youtube videos. Its not that hard. Making up your starter hive and making up the mating nucs is a bigger learning curve than the grafting itself. If you just want the queens for personal use skip the mating nuc part and just put the cells where you want queens.


Laurie also mentioned the importance of great starter,finisher and mating nuc hives. I started a thread hoping folks with experience would chime in on how to create and maintain those strong hives but so far no responses
Perhaps experienced folks following this thread will help out.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Have you checked out this thread?

There are a great many threads on this topic. Have you checked any of them out, yet?


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

I tried the nicot system. I know it works for others but I never got a single cell. I don't like taking the queen out of production for two or three days. There is the possibility that the hive might start emergency cells with her caged up. Get 3 or 4 Chinese grafting tools and some cups. Use bright lights. Grafting isn't hard at all. At first you might have to tear down cell walls to get a better angle at the larva. If your eyes are not good you need good reading glasses or a magnifying glass. You make a cell bar and just set it across the top where the frame goes. Put it between frames of open brood. Make sure you get your starter hive right. Lots of nurse bees and no eggs or young larva. No need to prime cells. Don't flip the larva. Check in a couple of days and if some haven't taken then graft some more...just keep up with the ages of the cells.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Have you checked out this thread?
> 
> There are a great many threads on this topic. Have you checked any of them out, yet?


No..but I am reading now
Thanks


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

WBVC said:


> No..but I am reading now
> Thanks


For a nuc box sized queen excluder do you maker your own...if so what size wire mesh works,do you cut down a full sized plastic excluder or are commercial nuc sized excluders available?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

t:

WBVC, sometimes I just use a welded wire, metal bound excluder. I lay the excluder over the top of the cell building super/nuc. Most of my nuc entrances are on top, where I've slid back the cover, or slid back the second super - depending. The excluder makes a nice platform for placing pollen sub patties, and/or syrup feeder. Though I have two custom-built nucs (where I keep some mother queens), which have a front entrance with a slide-in slot that fits a piece of excluder, which I cut to fit.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Great thread on grafting and starter/finisher nucs. Thanks so much.

Do those who raise Queen cells in colonies put those roller cages over each cell si confines the emerged Queen?

Is it best to hatch the Queen in a roller in the finisher nuc or is it best to place the capped Queen cell in the mating nuc or nuc/colony you are wishing to Queen?

How long before a virgin queen should be mated and laying eggs? I read that quite a few don't make it back to the hive?

I read the previous thread...and the problems folks have choosing larvae, handling larvae and keeping virgin Queens at bay. Does cooling and/or drying of the larvae during handling influence grafting success? If so what is the maximum time a donor or recipient frame should kept out of the hive?
Thanks.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Joseph Clemens said:


> t:
> 
> WBVC, sometimes I just use a welded wire, metal bound excluder. I lay the excluder over the top of the cell building super/nuc. Most of my nuc entrances are on top, where I've slid back the cover, or slid back the second super - depending. The excluder makes a nice platform for placing pollen sub patties, and/or syrup feeder. Though I have two custom-built nucs (where I keep some mother queens), which have a front entrance with a slide-in slot that fits a piece of excluder, which I cut to fit.


Ahhh...so one puts excluder between the bottom board....with entrance..and the hive and if also a top entrance immediately below this entrance..or...cut pieces of excluder over the entrances. Can drones get through a Queen excluder for cleansing flights?

I have seen circular gadgets in the catalogs where one has hole type entrance and puts this over it. Then dials a diameter. Is there a Queen excluder size on these? Do they work...or is it more economical and just effective to cut down a plastic queen excluder?

Can one cut out a row of cells with tiny larvae, stick that strip to a bar with some melted wax, squish some larvae to avoid them being too close and use that instead of grafted cells? 
If one did that is there any sort of gadget to contain the newly hatched Queens.

I do have eliminated magnification loops that I use for micro procedures but am not certain physical handling of larvae is the only potential pitfall


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Just graft. Cheaper and less of a headache works as good if not better.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you have the system, I would use it. You get to see the right age larve etc. If you don't have the system, there are several graftless systems you can do. Better Queens by Jay Smith, the Hopkins method, Hopkins orignal method, the Miller method, the Alley method are all graftless systems that don't really require buying any equipment. The Hopkins and the miller method you just us a regular frame. The original Hopkins, the Better Queens and the Alley methods you need to put together a cell bar and frame to which you wax a strip of cut comb. They work just as well and you don't have to buy special equipment:

www.bushfarms.com/beesoldbooks.htm


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

I have used the NICOT system now for 3 years. After talking to those that don't like it, I usually find that they have either tried to cut a corner or accidently didn't do something right. The learning curve for grafting is about the same as the NICOT. If you don't do exactly what is needed, you will not have the results that you want.
As far as what to do in the NICOT system, here's a couple of tips.
1. Place the NICOT frame in the hive 1-2 days before catching the queen. I will even spray it with a little sugar water. This will get the workers to clean cells and prepare them for laying.
2. I drop my queen in and leave her there one day longer than most directions call for. 9 out of 10 times she just doesn't lay in enough cells in the first 24 hour period.
3. After removing the queen excluder and releasing the queen, I also brush off all bees. Once it's placed back in the hive, the nurse bees really come to the frame quick to work the cells with eggs.
4. Queenless hive: I pick one hive and really feed it well so that it is full of bees. The process of making it queenless and ready for cell production is a 10 day period for me. I make a hive queenless by finding the queen and excluding her to the top medium. Most times, they will not make queen cells in the bottom because her smell is still in the hive.(I still check though) Once the bottom brood are too old to turn into queen cells, I shake a couple of frames of bees off the medium frames on the ground in front of the hive. I then remove the top medium to another yard and place a new deep super on top and let them begin to fill that out for future production. The original deep super is not my cell builder.
5. Once the cells in the NICOT frame hive all have royal jelly, I move them over into the queenless hive(s). Once the cells are capped, I then place the cell cages over them in case of an early hatching. 
6. I have 2 frames for cell builders with 20 cells on each frame. Between both queenless hives, I usually get 33-34 out of 40 cells. I sell nucs 20-30 at a time. Each new nuc gets a queen cell and extra queen cells are either placed into hives that I have prepared for a new queen or are sold to buddies as virgin queens. 
I have an excel file calendar if you would like it. It helps you know dates for doing each item in the actual NICOT process. PM is you'd like it. 

Lastly...the area that I make mistakes most often is in the queenless hive. More often than not, I have not caught a queen cell in the hive and they don't take to the NICOT cell frame. That's why I usually make 2 hives queenless.


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## Jam10133 (8 mo ago)

theriverhawk said:


> I have used the NICOT system now for 3 years. After talking to those that don't like it, I usually find that they have either tried to cut a corner or accidently didn't do something right. The learning curve for grafting is about the same as the NICOT. If you don't do exactly what is needed, you will not have the results that you want.
> As far as what to do in the NICOT system, here's a couple of tips.
> 1. Place the NICOT frame in the hive 1-2 days before catching the queen. I will even spray it with a little sugar water. This will get the workers to clean cells and prepare them for laying.
> 2. I drop my queen in and leave her there one day longer than most directions call for. 9 out of 10 times she just doesn't lay in enough cells in the first 24 hour period.
> ...


Have you still got your excel spreadsheet and does the system seem easier to you then grafting.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Jam10133 said:


> Have you still got your excel spreadsheet and does the system seem easier to you then grafting.


theriverhawk was "Last seen
Sep 20, 2020" so unlikely you will get a reply.


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