# Ready for winter... ready for the almonds?



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

I called my grower of 8 years a few weeks back and encouraged him to talk to his buddies about lining up bees early.
With the news that I am hearing out of Kansas and Minnesota and elsewhere; I am predicting a HUGE shortage of bees for almonds in 2013.
Several of my buddies across our great nation bragging about fishing, boating, camping...
Here is what I have enjoyed doing over the last month: Queen-checking, medicating, then medicating again....
And now feeding and monitoring. Random testing and evaluation.
I'm with Keith. This is a year that you either DO YOUR JOB as a beekeeper, or you will have lotts and lots of free time next spring to go fishing. 
It's all about personal responsibility. We need to take that seriously.


----------



## sjvbee (Dec 27, 2006)

Two very good posts


----------



## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

Ive heard of a couple big beekeepers that have lost quite a large number of bees , you guys might be on to something.


----------



## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

I am curious what they attribute the losses to? Drought?


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Keith's post is on the mark and a pretty good example of why some operations are plagued with all kinds of mysterious bee problems while others manage to have great looking hives in the very early spring. Operations that are committed to honey production are in a fundamentally different situation, they are mostly just scrambling to get their honey crops off and mite treatments on so that they can begin to assess the condition of their bees after a hot dry summer. Bee shortage in the almonds in 2013? I'll take a WAG and say probably a bit shorter than last year with more stressed bees come off of poor late summer and fall flows in drought stressed areas. I expected to be seeing and hearing about more varroa problems this year because of the earlier season but I am not sure that is materializing based on my recent conversation with a leading bee inspector. Maybe it's the heat, maybe it's better management, maybe it's that bees are adapting better or maybe it's still too early to have any idea how colonies will look two months from now not say six months.


----------



## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

just had the same conversation with to large commercial buddies. They think more will go to california to make up for the poor honey crop in most areas. I thought that some large beekeepers would be getting out as I am looking for some good pricing on shells. They both stated if anything they are looking to grow to make up the difference in revenue with almonds.


----------



## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

After learning of predictions of a harsh winter on the eastern seaboard I aggressivly sought out a place in Florida to over winter our bees and found one. Our honey crop was decent, and we had some good pollination contracts. We were pretty blessed this year despite a problem with package delivery with UPS. We are pending a large orchard pollination in March but looking to head to the Almonds in 2014, probably throught a broker our first time out. In 2011-2012 we lost three colonies due to the warm winter. (out of 150) We will be increasing by another 300 colonies in the spring.


----------



## Stevebeeman (May 22, 2011)

For the last few weeks I have been receiving calls almost on a daily basis from out of state and local beekeepers “with strong hives” looking for almond pollination contracts. An hour ago, I received a call from an out of state beekeeper with 1,000 hives looking for an almond contract willing to accept $75.00 per hive. Two weeks ago, I received a call from a local beekeeper with 2,000 hives looking for a contract. California’s local European beekeepers have increased their hive inventory by more than double they had last year. Times are tough and they are very competitive in their pricing. You will be seeing ads in the local newspapers and on Craigslist advertising 1,000’s of hives for rent for as low as $90.00. Last year with only days before the bloom, I had a waiting list from beekeepers totaling almost 10,000 hives trying to find a contract. We could not find a grower willing to take the hives for $125.00. These Growers all network with each other, it is a relatively small and close group, they know where the price level is every day, and they know where to fine the lowest cost.

But.... Only time will tell.


----------



## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

we shall see.


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

One of my cherry growers was approached by one of the "relativly small and close group" this year.
They wanted to place hives for free, just to hgave a place to put them.
My grower told me that he told them,"I've been down that road before and ain't going down it again.


----------



## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

all this broker speculation.hive numbers,increase,and price will hurt us in the end.im pretty sure most almond growers have computers.and use them to there advantage.pollinaton is almost like corn prices,fuel etc.lol.


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Any broker engaged in pushing prices lower as set by the bottom of bottom dwellers is not looking out for our industry in my opinion.
Nobody, NOBODY that I know, and I know thousands of good beekeepers, recieved less than $135.00 last year.
I don't care what the imitation beekeepers accepted.


----------



## Stevebeeman (May 22, 2011)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Any broker engaged in pushing prices lower as set by the bottom of bottom dwellers is not looking out for our industry in my opinion.
> Nobody, NOBODY that I know, and I know thousands of good beekeepers, recieved less than $135.00 last year.
> I don't care what the imitation beekeepers accepted.


I believe that it is the out of state beekeepers that are engaged in “pushing the pollination prices” down not the local beekeepers or the brokers.

As an owner and a broker of bees for almond pollination, our business relies on making a profit. The higher the pollination rental rates, the higher the profits. I am not suggesting lowering rental rates; I am simply giving you the facts from our experiences. Watch the ads in the Modesto Bee Newspaper and on Craigslist; see the thousands of hives available for less than $125.00. Last year Dadant in Fresno also had a list approaching 10,000 hives waiting to be rented. If you have not heard stories about out of state beekeepers bring (dumping) loads of bees to California without a contract, and then renting them just to pay the cost of fuel for the trip home, you are not well informed. They would make the Chinese proud. 
If you think almond growers do not follow the going pollination rates, I would suggest that you are living in denial and only kidding yourselves. We as beekeepers are shooting ourselves in the foot not wanting to talk about the elephant in the room. 
If an out of state beekeeper can rent their hives for $135.00 and incur a $50.00 per hive freight, labor, hotel, and placement cost, and net $85.00 just think what a local beekeeper can charge and net a higher profit, ( $95.00 per hive). When it comes to setting, pollination prices Beekeepers are their own worst enemy.
Beekeepers are the ones that drive the pollination prices down.

Stop and think for a moment what would happen if there were no bees available to pollinate almonds!
There are few, if any, other industries in California that are experiencing such an increasingly wide disparity between the balances of supply and demand for services than the almond pollination industry. In economic terms, the demand for almond pollination services is almost a Perfectly Inelastic Demand. That is, the demand for bee colonies SHOULD exhibits zero responsiveness to price changes; no matter what the price, the quantity demanded remains the same.
There are no substitutes for bee pollination of almonds. Bees are essential to almond production: if the tree is NOT pollinated, it will NOT produce nuts.
In the classic Supply and Demand Curve, the demand curve slopes down from left to right indicating as price increase, demand decline; the Inelastic Demand Curve is vertical, if the almond grower requires an average of two colonies per acre, then the demand for 705,000 acres requires (demands) 1.4 million colonies. This represents over 57% of all the colonies in the United States.
California has approximately 500,000 colonies locally. Over one million, 71% of all colonies used to pollinate next season’s Almond crop will be imported from other states and incurring substantial freight costs which should be passed on to the growers.
Theoretically, growers will pay whatever pollination price they have to if they can pass the cost on to the buyer. Growers as a group “bid for,” or “bid up” the price of colonies.
While pollination services set the minimums, cost demands drive the cost of the hive up. 
Obviously, from a practical standpoint growers will not pay pass a point for which they cannot recover their expense. Currently pollination fees account for 20% of the cost of production of almonds. The growers have a dilemma, if they do not pay for pollination services, the trees will not produce nuts. Current the world almond inventory supply is between 5–6 percent, which is considered a very low surplus. Those growers that do pay for pollination services will receive a premium for their almonds.
Demand for almonds are not Perfectly Inelastic, consumers do not and will not pay a higher price for almonds without affecting the demand. There are substitutes for almonds.

Again, I would suggest to you that it is the Out of State beekeepers who offer their hives at $135.00 are the ones that are driving the price down, instead they should be charging $185.00 per hive, when that happens you might begin to care what the "imitation beekeepers accepted."

Nuff Said!


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

I sure am glad my business plan dosent include california or a couple of these posts woulda been a good excuse to drink...


----------



## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

It seems a little to early to be talking about prices ,we still have a winter to go thru.


----------



## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

I hear you stevebeeman. All your points are well taken. It's all about supply and demand. $200 pollination prices would draw more bees than needed to CA and cause major price cutting at the end. $100 fees would draw too few bees and lead to a last minute scramble and crazy high prices to get bees moved in last minute. Good guys VS bad guys has little to do with what we get paid for pollination. 

Remember, when pollination was $45 a hive the only people willing to provide bees were from California. It was the out of state guys that demanded $100+ for almond pollination. Now days you could say it's the guys shipping bees out of Florida that decide what the price of pollination will be. CA guys have to take the good with the bad. Meaning, CA guys don't get to decide what the pollination price is anymore. The upside is everyone is getting triple the price now that out of state guys have a say in the price of pollination.

It's just supply and demand.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I would submit that the biggest problem to spot over-supply and resulting "bargain bees" is when beekeepers ship bees to California without any contracts or any idea where they might be going that inevitably panic and decide that they at least have to recoup their shipping expenses. It's like a rash of ticket scalpers at the stadium gate 5 minutes before game time. Of course a lot of these "bargain bees" are culls and bees that have already been rejected once somewhere else or maybe these bees don't even exist, maybe they are just an add in the paper to give the growers bargaining power. Quality hives from reliable sources booked through reputable channels always seem to find a home.


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

"Quality hives from reliable sources booked through reputable channels always seem to find a home. "

Seems there was a last minute rush last Feb to find more of those hives.Without a lot of syrup and sub, I think there will be a lot of substandard hives coming from the drought areas. Keith and Harry summed it up nicely. How much do you want to spend now to get it back many times over in Feb?


----------



## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

College football starts this week, so I guess we can legitimately begin every beekeeper's favorite pastime of speculating on what almond pollination prices will be for the 2013 almond pollination season. Being a California beekeeper this item is always of great interest to me. What always bugs me about this kind of discussion is that beekeeper's all too often compare apples to oranges and their is no mention of payment terms, strength guarantees or quantity when beekeepers throw numbers around. Brokering 1,000 colonies at $75.00 is what I consider an anomaly and not even an indication of the broader market. If you want to figure out how much to charge for almonds for 2013 figure out what *ALL* of your costs for your entire operation divided by the number of colonies you will rent after winter losses. Whether the individual beekeeper goes through this excersise or not that fact of the matter remains that the broader almond pollination market forces our industry to do this; which may explain why almond pollination prices typically mirror our annual costs over the past several years. It is also interesting to note that in New Zealand kiwi pollination rates roughly mirror annual costs for New Zealand beekeepers also.


----------



## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

So you're saying they pay to keep the operation alive purely to know they'll keep having bees to rent?


----------



## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

I am not saying growers are making this conscious decision...but it is the result of the supply demand dynamics of almond pollination.


----------



## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Quality hives from reliable sources booked through reputable channels always seem to find a home.


i agree with jim and ryan

A good product will always sell it self.

The guys willing to rent bee's for low low prices would probably also be willing to sell that same hive at the same low price, because if they dont make some money the bank will take their new swinger.


I hope prices will stay high, if they don't then farmers like us(we are farmers ya know) that take pride in having good bee's would be insulted by too low of a price.

i mean after all we put our lives into these bees and if the rental rate isn't high enough, then screw it. 

make honey


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Keith Jarrett said:


> For the next two months, how beekeepers feeds & treats there bees will be the out come of a great almond season or a disaster almond season. Good luck to all that pollinate almonds.


This thread was more intended to spur thoughts about the timing, management decisions & input costs and getting bees ready for almond pollination than it was about the price.
But, as we know here on beesource.... let'ter-er rip.


----------



## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Here, here I'm in for the honey part.:thumbsup:


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

The Honey Householder said:


> Here, here I'm in for the honey part.:thumbsup:


I'm going to be like Householder. For the last 7 years we have sent bees to almonds. Up until this year 100% made grade as we went thru them before shipping. First load graded 12 frames with two at 20 frames. Three hives graded below the 6 frame min. Two graded 5 and one 4. This could have been drift
Regardless I didn't get paid for the three even though I was 5o% above the 8 frame Ave. Kinda picky I think! Second load was stronger leaving Florida but we incurred cold weather the last 48 hours and had some hives with chilled brood and loss of two or three frames ofbees. Broker complaining BEFORE nets removed of poor hives. Temp was 47 with rain. Now can u tell strength in that weather.my trucker immediately called and said I think broker has too many bres and is trying to cut yours as in this weather its BS to complain about need with nets on. We took s 25 percent cut but some colonies were not graded properly. I had two hives that graded 3 frames with 7 frames covered in bottom box plus bees in top.we could not get the bees released. Just because ONE peddle in on a tree doesn't mean its viable. I flew out to feed as in my area very little pollen andnectar. Bees did not build up as usual. I realize the grower has paid good money but if there us no viable bloom release the bees. I lost as much on orange honey as I got paid sitting ina orchard with no viable bloom or flow for 10 days. Also I never get paid until about the time the bees are released. I am nodegt a banker....taking twod months to pay is too long....If I go to buy sugar at Wally world they font wait for their money. I am also fed up with trying to get bees into CA at border due to idiots. One year I had two sugar ants they found on bed of truck in 40 degree weather. Wanted to turn me around or pressure wash. Y paper work stated I could enter with 5 ants three being fire ants. They said they changed rules. When I told them I was flying there and dome language o can't replete here about what I was going to do they released me to go. Another time it took them 3 days to figure out what a wax moth larvae was. Unbelievable...just ask a fisherman. So yes I have bees available for almonds in MY TERMS. 200 per hive paid upon unloadind and grading, bees released within 24 hours of last daily post on bloom
5 dollars per day per hive every day past that day.grower pays putight bill out. I pay return. Don't like my terms. Fine I'll stay in Florida make honey have better bees. I figure if I had stayed on the east coast I would have made well over 150k more. In 7 years doing almonds I have made more going to CA. One year I got almonds and orange. But as a hole several of my beek friends have done as well staying put. Bees are better, less stress on both them and me plus no California border idiots to put up with!


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

I heard about a couple loads from Florida this year, that were five framers, when the beekeeper got a second grade(third party), well five framers. You here alot of stories out there, I think good & bad on both sides.Wish you the best of luck SBM.


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

RishKeirh . Yep I probably was one of those loads. With the warm weather in Florida and maple bloom along with feed most colonies had 4 and up frames sealed brood.. we hit below 40 degree weather from Dallas/ ft worth all way to CA border. As you know bees won't leave their babies and we had colonies with two frames brood chilled and bees lost due to chilling. That's part of the risk going to CA. The loaf that graded 5 frames. Was m. ore like 6.5. The colonies that suffered the most were the smaller ones. Some went from 5 or 6 to 3.every colony waschecked before leaving Florida and all were strong 5 with lots brood up to 14 framers. Most were 7 to 12 with lots brood and would have been two boxes within 2 weeks. I just don't think anyone can tell whether a load is 5 or 8 framers after being hauled in under 40 degree weather and its raining and 47 degree. The load was actually better than the first leaving fl. I know I didn't Ave 8 frames after the trip but they were still better than either graded. When I grade I am harder then most. I only count frames completely covered while grading standards are 75 percent. I think they were 1 yo 1.5 better but still about 1 or 1.5 frame under the 8 required. If the load hadn't gone downhill they would have exceeded grade. Beekeepers take a lot risk and anyone moving bees needs to realize the risk. I would have made much more staying in fl. Also I have pics of grade on lid and when u turn up hive there are at least 7 frame of bees in bottom box with a grade of 3. Getting bees released this year was absurd. I know the grower paid but if there is no bloom release my bees. The bees came back the same strength or weaker due to no pollen/nectar in my area. All part of the risk and I want compensated for my risk! I always check weather forecast but didn't due to warm winter
So guys learn from my mistake.....check the weather and adjust your route.


----------



## Jim Stevens (Jan 15, 2007)

Keith,
How many lbs or shovels full of Supplements per Hive are your Bees consuming right now?
Here in the Northwest I will start feeding & treating on Friday.
Just removed the bees from the Fireweed last weekend.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Jim Stevens said:


> Supplements per Hive are your Bees consuming right now?


Ha, If only I could get to my hives..... The folks that are feeding Nutra Bee say they are consuming 3-4 lbs a week.
Good luck with your bees this fall Jim.


----------



## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I've heard that some send there bees to a Florida beekeeper to put in Brazilian pepper grow out and split before Almonds. Florida guy gets to keep honey and or some splits, owner gets most of the splits and strong hives back.
Anyone heard of this or how it works?


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

One thing we always have to remind ourselves of:
ALL of beekeeping is regional.
Hives in Oregon and Washington are consuming 3 - 4 ponds of feed, minimum, weekly as well.
The difference is that our bees are the ones hauling it in by the shovel-full!
And even in our northern locations, volume varies.
Oregon and Washington are worlds away from Central California.

Are you worried about your hives protien intake or nutrition status?
The solution is not to throw money out the window.
Do some casual hive inspections and READ THE FRAMES!
Do you have great big bands of pollen around the brood of pollen or solid sheets of pollen?
If so, there is no good reason to waste money on additional feed.
Are your brood frames completely devoid of pollen stores? Beter get on the phone and get some coming!
Take time aside from all of the "production beekeeping" for few hours every week and read the frames.
Thay have the answer to most all of your questions including disease, quens, parasites.....


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

HarryVanderpool said:


> One thing we always have to remind ourselves of:
> ALL of beekeeping is regional.
> Hives in Oregon and Washington are consuming 3 - 4 ponds of feed, minimum, weekly as well.
> The difference is that our bees are the ones hauling it in by the shovel-full!


All beekeeping is regional, Yes very well said.

BTW, just sent loads last week too hood river, Siverton & Walla Walla.


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> BTW, just sent loads last week too hood river, Siverton & Walla Walla.


Glad to hear it. Glad to hear that some of us plan ahead.
They will be needing it soon, and they will have it in their hot hands!


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

And now that I shot my mouth off; let me give you an update:
I hit a few yards today to do some mite sampling and was surprised at how low the inventory of pollen stores were in some hives / locations.
August went down as one of the most dry in history and it is showing up in the amount of available pollen.
So, I defer back to Keith's recomendations. We will be placing pollen soon. (NOW!!)
Thanks Keith!


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Keith's recomendations. We will be placing pollen soon. (NOW!!)
> Thanks Keith!


Harry thanks for the kind words But.... If you look at post #30, I"ve been slow to put on sub too, cant get away from the shop. The ONLY reason I know that it's time is that the phone has been ringing for a month with other keepers saying we need to feed. The one good thing about making sub is you get a chance to talk to other keepers in different states and hear what going on in there back yard. Other than that, I think i would rather clean out septic tanks than mix sub all day.lol


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I'm not sure I agree with post #32 in regards to "throwing money out the window". I never felt that it is wasting money when feeding bees even if they have good pollen reserves. By feeding them their protein levels go up and they can keep on brooding. Many of our hivs have several frames of pollen but by feeding them patties and syrup they keep on brooding longer. This allows us to make divides later in the season and we can keep on building them up thru the use of feeds.

Think of it this way, it's nice to have a fridge full of food, but nicer to have a plate of food served to you.

Jean-Marc


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Keith Jarrett;845977 I think i would rather clean out septic tanks than mix sub all day.lol[/QUOTE said:


> We can arrange that!


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

SNL, Yeah, lol.... I hear the sewer is overflowing down in Charlotte,NC this week, those poor boys are probably making a meant on over time this week.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

You're right Keith, I'm just hoping that the NC sewer overflow doesn't make it to SC!

Larry


----------

