# Genetics and feed.



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>1.) They starved.
2.) They were too cold, could not break cluster and get food. Died because they could not keep warm/starved.
>Either way, they starved
>I personally think genetics plays a very small role in winter survival.

In my area we have a flow that starts in October. I lose half my un-medicated hives by February. They die with pounds and pounds of stores in them. They can fly almost every day so they can always migrate onto stores in the hive. Some live right next to those that died. Some of those that live collect a surplus crop while the others full of stores next to them, die. 

Doesn't that shoot your hypnosis?

I think genetics and queen age has a whole lot to do with it.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

odfrank said:


> >
> 
> In my area we have a flow that starts in October. I lose half my un-medicated hives by February. They die with pounds and pounds of stores in them. They can fly almost every day so they can always migrate onto stores in the hive. Some live right next to those that died. Some of those that live collect a surplus crop while the others full of stores next to them, die.
> 
> ...


If your bees have underlying disease issues that is not what I am discussing. I would assume you have nosema ceranae, contaminated comb and other contributing factors. I am discussing a more northern climate issue. I have kept bees in Vancouver, BC, Canada to as far north as within 2 hours of the 60th parallel. I would still interject that laziness in the cause of most failures in your area. You probably have more cross-contamination from other beekeepers who are lazy but it is still the root cause. 

So hypothesis that beekeepers are lazy, still in tact.
So hypothesis that lack of nutrition causes most failures where there is 'actually' winter. This means snow, below freezing for at least a week or two. Still in tact.
So hypothesis that we need to measure, feed, and intervene more. Still in tact. 

P.S. Nutrition does mean more than just honey right?


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

JODIE I think your right when it comes to Nutrition. I had 25 hive at the start of winter and now have 15 and all but one died from starvation.
I had all 2013 queens and where doing great all year.
I had 13 nucs and lost 6 of them but they where robbed out bad in mid. summer and I tried to get weight on them by fall but some where just to lite . I should of combined but did not.
So this year I'm going to build my numbers back up and study bee Nutrition and make some healthy strong bees. This is a good read to start from. http://ebookbrowsee.net/gdoc.php?id=176016773&url=54a3e7c8bdd6d27db8e2d8a9eba1a8db&c=176016773
One thing I have learned about keeping bees is there allways some thing to learn and this is my new learning curve for this coming year .
I have learned about making bees/ making honey/dealing with VARROA {still learning}/ and robbing . 
Just when I thought I know what I was doing there's some thing new to learn.
Going it to this past winter I was pretty sure I would have 100% survival and I did not in fact I only have 65% survival as of right now so I have been humbled .


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

A couple additional thoughts.. There are 40,000 "dogs" or so ganging up to go through winter together, vs. one having to generate enough heat to survive. My 40,000 "dogs" also are living right on top of their food , guarding it, using it when needed vs. my golden eating a 50 lb. sack in one sitting if available. Also the actual nectar and pollen stored and preserved in the colony cannot be improved on by the beekeeper so I wouldn't consider it poor nutrition or call it lazy if I left the honey. 

On the other side of lazy, is too much. How much splitting and nucing go on too late in the season for the colonies to build up to go through a winter in the north?? Everyone wants to take nucs through the winter, but why not get the nuc built up into 8 frames, 10 frames vs. 5. 

You don't mention Varroa in your OP but I think it's all about the genetics in how colonies deal with varroa.. Varroa has an impact on most colonies, whether they crash outright, they dwindle over the winter, or they make it to spring. What's lazy is not knowing what the mite levels are and expecting the colonies to make it to spring without treatments. We've all seen small clusters buried in the cells with stores one cell over. More syrup or pollen sub will not make any difference to these colonies genetically lacking.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

JodieToadie said:


> There should be a whole section on Beesource just regarding nutrition.


Perhaps you haven't yet looked at the _Point of View _section of Beesource? 

For instance, how about this article from the POV section ...Honey Bee Nutrition and Supplemental Feeding​


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JodieToadie said:


> We are all LAZY.


How can you tell it has been an overly long cold winter... LOL

Jodie, I have a different take on it. I dont check my hives during the winter for stores and its not out of lazyness. Mostly because, I can't. I follow the old saying "prepare for the worst, hope for the best".
If a prairie beekeeper prepares their hives as per usual conditions, and worst conditions fall upon them and the yards fall onto starvation, and the colonies are accessible and workable, then yes, thats Lazy... But if those yards are under drifts of snow and not accessible because of snow and cold...that is just the way it is...a tough winter resulting in unfortunate losses.

Im starting to hear higher than normal winter losses (unofficially) around here from outdoor guys. Terrible thing, its not fair to start calling these guys Lazy.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JodieToadie said:


> Why would I want to remove this as a 'genetic' trait?


OK I will let you have fun, I am lazy. But before you beat up on me remember one thing bees are vulnerable during the winter. Disturbing them will result in loss of resources one way or another. If it is touch and go on whether they run out of food entering the hive in the winter will mean they will need more food. As nutrition goes there is no better food then honey and fresh pollen so if you go in then you are going to be feeding them something that is less nutritious.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

> I would accuse US as a group of being LAZY. We put the bees to bed in fall and ignore them till spring. I would say 95% of the Beekeepers monitor nothing in their hives during this time. Consequently in spring when they have high winter losses we point the finger at everything but the truth. <

Jodie,
The above statement seems a bit harsh but I do understand where you are coming from, while there is no doubt a good many lazy beekeepers there are many other factors other than laziness at play, some could be listed as - lack of devotion, lack of experience, bad advice, and even complacency. Our weather as a whole is much milder than what you experience in Canada. I cannot speak for others but I have been experiencing fairly mild winters for a number of years now and was completely caught off guard this year as we went through this recent winter. I had gotten used to milder winters and not needing to insulate my hives and as a result I lost a hive in February, and let me make it clear that it was my fault that it happened I had become complacent, now that I know better I will do better I will have my hives insulated every winter from now on, I did let my guard down and the 1 hive paid the price. I monitor my hives for weight and by listening to the cluster 1 to 2 times a week and when I discovered that a hive was dead I immediately wrapped the others in blankets and tarps to protect them from the frigid temperatures and I am also feeding 2 nucs that came up short on feed, I am happy to report that all these hives have come through the winter in great shape and are growing fast.

My point is that people must be given the chance to learn and grow in knowledge and understanding and those that are truly lazy or not devoted to caring for their bees will soon grow weary of forking out the money each year for new packages. We as Americans can be a bit complacent at times where wintering hives is concerned but I assure you we are not as a group lazy.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

JodieToadie said:


> I would accuse US as a group of being LAZY. We put the bees to bed in fall and ignore them till spring. I would say 95% of the Beekeepers monitor nothing in their hives during this time. Consequently in spring when they have high winter losses we point the finger at everything but the truth.


Please explain how you would "take action" in the middle of the winter I just went through?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm not lazy, just busy.

I don't like opening up my hives too often during the regular season. Once a week would be too often in my opinion.

I don't open up my hives in winter because IMHO it's likely to cause more problems than it solves. Besides, what exactly can I do if I find a problem besides order new bees?

I'll take a peek when it gets warm enough. I don't want to chill any brood unnecessarily.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

odfrank said:


> >1.) They starved.
> 2.) They were too cold, could not break cluster and get food. Died because they could not keep warm/starved.
> >Either way, they starved
> >I personally think genetics plays a very small role in winter survival.
> ...


I am still in my first year at this. I have not yet pinched a Queen. 

My question is:

Do you pinch a Queen just because she is a certain age? If so what age? If your Queens aren't marked how do you know the Queens age...she could be a super ceded Queen and younger than you think.

If you pinch based on age you will never know which Queens are long time producers.

Or

Do you pinch Queens when they aren't producing well? If that is the case what are specific guides as to when one ides she has to go?

If you pinch a Queen and replace with a new mated Queen how long do you wait before introduction.

Re "lazy beeks": if you follow this list you would know that many folks that have lost hives agonize and work hard to best manage their bees. They prep them for winter starting in early fall, they protect them as best they can for their climate, they ensure they have feed and by some means manage parasites.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

Genetics play a big part. Carniolan and Russian bees will use less feed than Italians. I have been raising queens from my own surviving hives for a few years with a leaning towards "carniolan" type. Most hives seem to make it into March having used about half their stores.
I guess I must fall into the lazy category as I don't check my hives from October to March. Still haven't looked into the hives yet, this morning it was -22C. As Ian says there isn't a lot we can do for hives in our climate during winter. If fall prep work was done correctly there is no reason to bother hives until spring.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

JodieToadie said:


> Here's my take and it applies to treatment free, commercial, side-liner alike. We are all LAZY.
> So lets hear the excuses...


Speak for yourself son. You follow me around and we'll see who gets LAZY. You want to put snowshoes on and pull the toboggan through this deep snow out to my 45 apiaries, or should I do it for you? Or would you wait for snow melt? Are you going to weigh my 700 hives in September, or watch me do it? Lift the 700 nucs to estimate feed needed or go home with sore fingers? Go ahead and feed out 9 tons of sugar in the fall, and still pick up a few starved colonies in March, and then we'll talk lazy.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> Speak for yourself son. You follow me around and we'll see who gets LAZY. You want to put snowshoes on and pull the toboggan through this deep snow out to my 45 apiaries, or should I do it for you? Or would you wait for snow melt? Are you going to weigh my 700 hives in September, or watch me do it? Lift the 700 nucs to estimate feed needed or go home with sore fingers? Go ahead and feed out 9 tons of sugar in the fall, and still pick up a few starved colonies in March, and then we'll talk lazy.


Mr. Palmer you are the exception, not the rule. The 5% or less who actually put in the effort and reap the rewards. My real question has little to do with the beekeeper. I have watched your videos and admire your skill.
The purpose of the initial post is to turn the thought process on it's head about genetics and feed. Since I would consider your knowledge well beyond my own please give me your thoughts.

Is winter consumption really genetic? How much so? 

We have changed many other aspects of beekeeping over the decades, yet we tend to look at this problem as binary. They made it through winter or they didn't. If they didn't they were genetically weak and should have been purged from the gene pool. 

I wish to challenge this particular thought process. Those hive were usually the strongest going in to winter. Plus I cannot believe in my own situation that if left alone 25% of my hives right now would starve and therefore would be considered genetically weaker than the others.

Second purpose:
See if it were possible to do a non-evasive evaluation of hives and also a non-evasive method of feeding when required. More attention by the other 95%. Wintering methodology has not changed in decades, perhaps it should.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Barry said:


> Please explain how you would "take action" in the middle of the winter I just went through?


I don't know, hence why I am starting the dialogue. There are many smart people here, perhaps they can tell us what they do. Wintering methods haven't evolved in 30-40 years. Everything else has.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Ian said:


> How can you tell it has been an overly long cold winter... LOL
> 
> Jodie, I have a different take on it. I dont check my hives during the winter for stores and its not out of lazyness. Mostly because, I can't. I follow the old saying "prepare for the worst, hope for the best".
> If a prairie beekeeper prepares their hives as per usual conditions, and worst conditions fall upon them and the yards fall onto starvation, and the colonies are accessible and workable, then yes, thats Lazy... But if those yards are under drifts of snow and not accessible because of snow and cold...that is just the way it is...a tough winter resulting in unfortunate losses.
> ...


Ian,
I can't start a dialogue on here without a bit of controversy. If calling beekeepers lazy get's em talking so be it. This ties together with your post 'When was the last time you tried something new for the first time?' There are certainly shades of lazy in all of us and it isn't necessarily a bad thing. 
I have been in and around beekeeping my whole life. Everything has changed and evolved, but we do the same thing every winter expecting a different outcome. (Isn't that the definition of insanity?) 

If you could somehow have a data point indicating that 100 of your hives were near starvation wouldn't you want that detail? If you had it could you intervene? If you intervened, would those hives be more or less successful than hives that wouldn't have starved? Would those hives actually be genetically different than hives that would have survived? 

There is a very large number of beekeepers that ARE lazy. Like any other problem or disaster there should be a written plan in the event of this problem. We have an IPM for our apiaries. There should be an Integrated Nutrition Plan and an Integrated Temperature Control Plan. Or as you said at minimum plan for the worst and hope for the best.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JodieToadie said:


> Those hive were usually the strongest going in to winter. Plus I cannot believe in my own situation that if left alone 25% of my hives right now would starve and therefore would be considered genetically weaker than the others.


I think you are making way too many assumptions that are not correct.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Acebird said:


> I think you are making way too many assumptions that are not correct.


Okay... such as?


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

I believe there is an aspect of physics that can't be ignored here. Genetics will play a part, but were dancing around some cold facts that can't be ignored. The fact is that it takes calories for a biologic entity requiring self heating, to survive, in direct proportion to need of the entity, and difference of temperature, and the losses VS gains of the shelter or home. Heat losses are strictly a function of the size of the space enclosed, and the insulative qualities of the materials enclosing the space. In other words, proportional to the surface area, the temperature difference, and the insulative nature of the material. In the case of bees which are a colony of individuals that all depend on the collective ability to create the necessary heat (a variable specific to climates and conditions) to survive, the size and quality of the hive material, together with the difference in temperature, dictates how many bees are required to produce the heat, which directly relates to the quantity of honey needed for that number of bees, and the period of time needing survival. This says nothing about ventilation, or any other factors that become additional complications to this survival equation.

The physics dictates that unless the heat retained is greater than or equal to the heat lost, for the entire duration of the cold, total loss is inevitable. It is clear that factors of, space size, insulation, size of colony, temperature difference, and necessary feed, all play into this equation. It is pretty clear that genetics can also play into this equation, such as carnies, for example, who seem to have a tendency to reduce brood earlier and also in proportion to honey flows, that often enter winter in smaller colony sizes.

However in nature, bees are often found in big thick tree trunks and other fairly well insulated locations. Our artificial boxes for bees are typically only 3/4" thick to maybe 1 1/2" thick. It stands to reason that the more harsh and cold the climate gets, and length of cold season, all of these factors must be taken into account in the above equation. Colder climates will require more heat, and / or more insulation, and more heat will require more calories to create, therefore more bees. Longer colder season will require more and longer heat, leading to more calories burned, or significantly more insulation to lower the first two requirements. All of this leads to more honey required.

The lifespan of bees and dormant period with no brood, are additional parameters that must be taken into account. The colder and longer the winter season, the more complex and difficult survival becomes. I believe that the physics here is like a ball and chain that dictates a line in the sand that is independent of genetics or beekeeping styles. If the genetics affects the ability to create heat, or the number of bees in the colony going into winter, or the amount of honey stored, it affects the survival equation. Ignorance of the survival equation by man or beast will result in the consequences that are not flexible. Bees that choose a well protected home in the wild, should experience better survival rates in the cold climates. Beekeepers understanding these principles will manage accordingly and have positive results. 

I believe that the genetic aspects of the above equation are very small players, in the above equation for survival, comparative to the location, size and materials and insulation of the hive, and the size of the colony and stores required. The variations in the length and severity of certain climates, would require a wide corresponding response from beekeepers to adjust the above physical parameters to maintain that golden triangle of surviveability. I don't believe personally that it is reasonable to expect breeding practices or genetics to accomplish the same thing. In my opinion.

Unless we succeed in grafting some of the genetics of that frog that can freeze up North, and then thaw out and revive.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

JodieToadie said:


> Is winter consumption really genetic? How much so?


Of course winter food consumption is genetic. If you have a number of colonies in an apiary, prepare them similarly for winter and observe the results in the spring, do you think they will all have consumed similar amounts of feed? Maybe if all the colonies in the apiary are from the same stock you wouldn't see much of a difference.

So how much does genetics matter? I really have no way to measure that. I'm aware of it. I select from among the stocks that don't need supplemental feeding. But how much supplemental feeding is due to weather? The best genetics don't trump no flow. So how does one select against a bad weather event. I don't know.

But you manage or feed your bees to weigh what, by experience tells you they should to make it to spring, and then you put them to bed for the winter. You don't have to check them until late winter or early spring. That doesn't make you a lazy beekeeper. It means you're a hard working beekeeper who got the autumn work done in the autumn. If some are light in February or March you do what you have to to save those. If some are excellent you consider breeding from them.

If they're starved to death then...good riddance. Winter is the Great Selector.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> If they're starved to death then...good riddance. Winter is the Great Selector.


Other than beekeeping; what other farming would find this as acceptable? 
If I raised cows I'd feed more instead of letting them starve. If I grew grain, I would irrigate or fertilize. 
Bees are the only thing we let die due to starvation and I've seen it for so long I would assume that if it was genetic it would be gone by now or will never go away and I need to work around it. 

Also there is the pure math of it. If a double consumed 80lbs of honey, and starves vs. 20lbs more, what have I gained? The math doesn't work either. I could requeen later if I could get them to that point the 80lbs of honey is already gone so it doesn't even count in the equation anymore. Now it is 20lbs of feed vs. the price of bees in your area.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I think it is more a question of of how a race or genotype overwinters in regards to colony size. Is there a big difference in the energy requirements of an idividual bee? Probably not. But, a colony that overwinters as a larger colony, say 25,000 bees, is going going to require more energy than a smaller colony, say 10,000 bees.

A larger colony is better able to move and stay in contact with stores. A larger colony can raise more brood earlier to be better prepared to take advantage of nectar flows. A larger colony needs more stores to make it through the winter.

Tom


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

JodieToadie said:


> Other than beekeeping; what other farming would find this as acceptable?


But, we take the bees winter stores. When we take a calf from a dairy cow we do not feed it its' mothers milk. We feed it replacement milk. So, to go back to your original point, yes some beekeepers are lazy.

But, to support Michael Palmers point about letting poor genetics die out. What happens to dairy cows that are not productive? Can you say big mac? No, the farmer doesn't let the animal starve he culls it from the herd and sends it to the slaughter plant. And, he probably will not continue to breed replacement cows from that line.

Tom


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JodieToadie said:


> Lack of food kills bees more than any other cause. We as beekeepers just look for other excuses. .


Not at this place, I would becarefull with the wide brush.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JodieToadie said:


> Other than beekeeping; what other farming would find this as acceptable?


I would say all farming. It is a gamble and today it requires large sums of money to make the gamble and if it doesn't turn out, not because of laziness, but because of things that are out of your control you are not a farmer anymore.

I think the best thing for you to do is show us the way if you are successful people will follow.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JodieToadie said:


> Okay... such as?


How do you know that the strongest hive in general will fail? How do you know if 25% of your hives will starve if you leave them alone. You apparently have a crystal ball that we would all like to use.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I think the best thing for you to do is show us the way if you are successful people will follow.


That's pretty easy with the prices of late, I never met a keepers that made money with duds.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Not at this place, I would becarefull with the wide brush.


Keith I know you are a pro, and I would class you in at the 5% as well. How many months are you unable to access your bees due to temperature and snow? How long is the maximum duration your bees go between cleansing flights? What kills your bees? You would also have to agree that you are successful because you are ambitious and you monitor your hives constantly rather than leaving it up to fate. If they need food, you feed. If they need medicine you medicate. If the hive is contaminated you get rid of the hive. Hence you are successful. 
In the event that you had to actually winter in a harsh climate, I doubt you would feed the bees and then walk away for 4,5, or 6 months? Leaving it up to the bees to decide survival? Not a chance. I doubt you would let a hive intentionally starve. You should understand the questions and the reasons for asking them.
Besides I have learned on here that you have to provoke a response.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> That's pretty easy with the prices of late, I never met a keepers that made money with duds.


There are keepers making all kinds of money with duds. Especially the ones coming from almonds but the buyers don't know it until it is too late. I wouldn't doubt that they are using pollen sub too.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Acebird said:


> How do you know that the strongest hive in general will fail? How do you know if 25% of your hives will starve if you leave them alone. You apparently have a crystal ball that we would all like to use.


I observe the hive, document and weigh. I know that a weight of 43lbs signifies almost dead. Is that an assumption, slightly (could it survive at 40lbs possibly but it would be severely weakened. I have weighed every hive 4 times this winter. I have 25% that are within 6lbs of the 43 pound target. I am measuring. I am intervening. 

I am looking for solutions not more problems. Like I said we've done the same in northern climates for 40+ years. Tremendous assumptions are made as you refer to farming as akin to gambling. I think I have better odds if I don't just leave it up to fate. So how do I do this?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Acebird said:


> There are keepers making all kinds of money with duds. Especially the ones coming from almonds but the buyers don't know it until it is too late. I wouldn't doubt that they are using pollen sub too.


Were shaking packages right now Ace, what are you going to fill the three pounds with?

You think farmers are going to continue to pay for duds @ $175 a box?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JodieToadie said:


> How long is the maximum duration your bees go between cleansing flights? What kills your bees?.


Maybe a week or two.
The queen goes Kabuuush, most of the time when we loose hives over the winter it's the queen.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

warmbees said:


> The physics dictates that unless the heat retained is greater than or equal to the heat lost, for the entire duration of the cold, total loss is inevitable. It is clear that factors of, space size, insulation, size of colony, temperature difference, and necessary feed, all play into this equation. It is pretty clear that genetics can also play into this equation, such as carnies, for example, who seem to have a tendency to reduce brood earlier and also in proportion to honey flows, that often enter winter in smaller colony sizes.
> 
> 
> I believe that the genetic aspects of the above equation are very small players, in the above equation for survival, comparative to the location, size and materials and insulation of the hive, and the size of the colony and stores required. The variations in the length and severity of certain climates, would require a wide corresponding response from beekeepers to adjust the above physical parameters to maintain that golden triangle of survivability. I don't believe personally that it is reasonable to expect breeding practices or genetics to accomplish the same thing. In my opinion.


Of all the comments you are the only one who seems to get the purpose of my post. How do we overcome? (What a silly thought, applying science to a problem. LOL) How can we set up an apiary to monitor and intervene when necessary? I looked at your website, I am a skeptic. However, have you consider experimenting with self-regulating heat trace to keep the hive warm? It naturally regulates based on surrounding temp and would be a more precise application of heat. I also appreciate the fact you are trying something different. Good job!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think bees that have a high percentage Carni and a touch of Russian are a lot more inclined to limit hive population in the fall than typical Italians. On average they will get through winter on fewer stores and do not start raising brood nearly as early as the Italian type. It is a killer when bees get locked on brood and starve rather than abandon brood to move to new stores.

It has been mentioned that feeding syrup too late in the season loads the hive with moisture as the bees do not have time to dry it down and store it ABOVE brood. The method and timing of winter stores buildup can greatly influence cluster position and the production (or not ) of so called "winter bees"; large numbers of aged foragers are not what you need most going into winter. Some of these items might not be entirely laziness.

I nearly got caught light last fall as late summer rain and cloud and no fall flow resulted in double deeps weighing about a hundred pounds gross weight. Most were split hives the previous spring. I fed about 40 pounds of sugar in 2:1 syrup per hive and got them up to about 125 - 130 lbs each. Today I reweighed and they have dropped about 30 lbs each so far. That should relate to about 30 lbs of stores left till spring nectar starts, but they will go through that much quicker once they start brooding up. Last winters figures for consumption were similar and no losses.

I dont think it has been mentioned yet that parasite loads can be the real cause behind a lot of apparent winter starvation. Keeping that under control involves a bit of work; Pull honey early to leave time for any needed feeding or treatment before the crunch of bad weather hits you. Too late then. Laziness, unrealistic expectations, or advice geared to a different climate or different bee genetics, or sometimes all of the above.

Wrapping hives for energy conservation while still effectively controlling condensation takes some thought and effort, but I would rather do that instead of cleaning up deadouts. Once the top goes on in November they are on their own pretty much till the end of March in my location.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

I am looking for solutions not more problems. Like I said we've done the same in northern climates for 40+ years. Tremendous assumptions are made as you refer to farming as akin to gambling. I think I have better odds if I don't just leave it up to fate. So how do I do this?[/QUOTE]

You can start by learning how to make nucs and raise queens. When you see failing hives/queens during the summer replace them with queens or nucs from your winter survivors. I know that may sound cruel to you but it just isn't practical to bring your poorly performing queen or hive to the vet or to have the queen re inseminated like you would a dog, cat, cow, etc. I know the common answer to dead bees with butts hanging out of the cells is starvation (whether they have honey next to them or not). But I truly think in most cases its poor performing hives as a whole due to mites and the diseases they spread. No amount of feed, insulation, magic pollen patty mixes, recipes, or treatments are going to save them. We simply don't have all the answers when it comes to the health of bees. So don't beat beekeepers up for winter dead outs by proclaiming they are lazy. Nucs headed by queens that you raise going into winter do amazingly well on very little honey and are great in the Spring. I do feed nucs to start them and rarely a hive, I don't treat but I do mite checks on occasion to see if a queen (and general health of the hive) is worth grafting from.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

MJC417 said:


> I am looking for solutions not more problems. Like I said we've done the same in northern climates for 40+ years. Tremendous assumptions are made as you refer to farming as akin to gambling. I think I have better odds if I don't just leave it up to fate. So how do I do this?


You can start by learning how to make nucs and raise queens. When you see failing hives/queens during the summer replace them with queens or nucs from your winter survivors. I know that may sound cruel to you but it just isn't practical to bring your poorly performing queen or hive to the vet or to have the queen re inseminated like you would a dog, cat, cow, etc. I know the common answer to dead bees with butts hanging out of the cells is starvation (whether they have honey next to them or not). But I truly think in most cases its poor performing hives as a whole due to mites and the diseases they spread. No amount of feed, insulation, magic pollen patty mixes, recipes, or treatments are going to save them. We simply don't have all the answers when it comes to the health of bees. So don't beat beekeepers up for winter dead outs by proclaiming they are lazy. Nucs headed by queens that you raise going into winter do amazingly well on very little honey and are great in the Spring. I do feed nucs to start them and rarely a hive, I don't treat but I do mite checks on occasion to see if a queen (and general health of the hive) is worth grafting from.[/QUOTE]


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## brownbuff75 (Jul 1, 2013)

"I personally think genetics plays a very small role in winter survival. Or a much smaller role than is assumed. "

Genetics, to a point, has a lot to do with winter survival. A colony's ability to survive in any situation is based on its genetics. For example: if you have two hives that are feral and have identical weights of stores and conditions. Only one survives and the other starves out. The one that survives can pass on its genes whatever it is that makes them better at surviving winters in that location. Now throw a beekeeper in the mix with all the tools of the trade. If the beekeeper adds enough stores or heat or some other practice to the lesser hive and it survives. Now both hives can pass on there genetics. Now if this goes on long enough and the keeper keeps splitting these hives and a curveball of a winter hits he will more than likely loose a lot of hives. If the beekeeper has just a few hives, they might do(if they have the knowledge to do so) whatever it take to help that hive along for it to survive because more than likely they can afford it. When you start to get into the 100's to 1000's of hives it might not be as cost or time efficient in the long haul to try to baby the hives thru the winter. In other words, let genetics prevail and try to pass those genes on.

"I believe that the genetic aspects of the above equation are very small players, in the above equation for survival, comparative to the location, size and materials and insulation of the hive, and the size of the colony and stores required. The variations in the length and severity of certain climates, would require a wide corresponding response from beekeepers to adjust the above physical parameters to maintain that golden triangle of survivability. I don't believe personally that it is reasonable to expect breeding practices or genetics to accomplish the same thing. In my opinion."

Why wouldn't it be reasonable to expect breeding practices or genetics to accomplish the same thing? If you had a choice of 2 types of hives, hive A and hive B. Hive A requires a lot of babying to get thru the winter and Hive B requires little to non, which one would you choose? Lets even say the cost of getting Hive A thru the winter cost $10 and hive B requires $5. Now times that by 100 or 1000.... it wouldn't take long, if your a commercial person, to initiate a breeding program to propagate genetics with the lowest wintering costs.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JodieToadie said:


> Ian,
> There are certainly shades of lazy in all of us and it isn't necessarily a bad thing.


This is where you are wrong. Lazy is a terrible way of stating your intention here. Its not lazy at all, it the way we manage our unknowns. 

In my operation my job as the beekeeper is managing the averages. We have all kinds of factors driving down at us all at the same time, most of them out of sight, hard to control and predict. The hardest lesson I have learnt as a beekeeper is *accepting losses*. Losses from wintering, losses from swarming, losses from queen problem, losses from starvation ... its my job to minimize these losses but not eliminate the losses. Because if I were to continue trying to eliminate the losses I would have no life, family or sanity. 

I love the way your thinking but Lazy is wrong. Are you basing this assumption on someone you know?


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

JodieToadie said:


> You can start by learning how to make nucs and raise queens. When you see failing hives/queens during the summer replace them with queens or nucs from your winter survivors. I know that may sound cruel to you but it just isn't practical to bring your poorly performing queen or hive to the vet or to have the queen re inseminated like you would a dog, cat, cow, etc. I know the common answer to dead bees with butts hanging out of the cells is starvation (whether they have honey next to them or not). But I truly think in most cases its poor performing hives as a whole due to mites and the diseases they spread. No amount of feed, insulation, magic pollen patty mixes, recipes, or treatments are going to save them. We simply don't have all the answers when it comes to the health of bees. So don't beat beekeepers up for winter dead outs by proclaiming they are lazy. Nucs headed by queens that you raise going into winter do amazingly well on very little honey and are great in the Spring. I do feed nucs to start them and rarely a hive, I don't treat but I do mite checks on occasion to see if a queen (and general health of the hive) is worth grafting from.


[/QUOTE]

I am not a newbie. I have not kept bees on a huge scale, but up to 500 hives which I think is reasonable. I do know how to rear queens and I certainly know how to make nucs. I don't cry if the bees die. I am not that type of beekeeper. I have seen hundreds if not thousands of starved hives over the years. I don't want to be that type of beekeeper either. Mites and diseases are a contributing factor for sure, I agree that they could be a cause. That is a different discussion. I have observed over the years many hives; carniolan, Italian, Russian, (I even had a strain of Corinthian). I would not consider myself a master but I have spent thousands of hours in apiaries. Big hives tend to stay big over winter. They tend to consume more. They tend to die prematurely because we as beekeepers prepare average strength hives for average winters. Then we do nothing to intervene if either dynamic changes. So we are in fact not breeding for the strongest and the best but we are breeding the most miserly bees that we can. Do I have concern with this philosophy? Absolutely, once the hive is dead the genes are also gone. Is this truly logical from an economic perspective? Not a chance. 
Did I spend time preparing my hives? Like any other beekeeper I spent lots of time. I medicated for varroa, nosema, afb/efb. I fed hard and tried to make weight, of course. I know beekeepers work hard at times. But is see in winter it is like a light switch. Sit back, do nothing and leave it to fate. The 'I've done everything I can, now it's up to fate mentality.' That is lazy. When you reach an illogical end you are in fact lazy.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

brownbuff75 said:


> "I personally think genetics plays a very small role in winter survival. Or a much smaller role than is assumed. "
> 
> Genetics, to a point, has a lot to do with winter survival. A colony's ability to survive in any situation is based on its genetics. For example: if you have two hives that are feral and have identical weights of stores and conditions. Only one survives and the other starves out. The one that survives can pass on its genes whatever it is that makes them better at surviving winters in that location. Now throw a beekeeper in the mix with all the tools of the trade. If the beekeeper adds enough stores or heat or some other practice to the lesser hive and it survives. Now both hives can pass on there genetics. Now if this goes on long enough and the keeper keeps splitting these hives and a curveball of a winter hits he will more than likely loose a lot of hives. If the beekeeper has just a few hives, they might do(if they have the knowledge to do so) whatever it take to help that hive along for it to survive because more than likely they can afford it. When you start to get into the 100's to 1000's of hives it might not be as cost or time efficient in the long haul to try to baby the hives thru the winter. In other words, let genetics prevail and try to pass those genes on.
> 
> ...


Love it! Hence the question are we thinking about it in the right way? Hive A cost $10 to winter, but I got 3 nucs out of it and produced a total of 600lbs of honey off the 4 hives. Versus hive B that cost $5 to winter and I may get single split from it or may not be able to split it and I produce 150lbs of honey. 

Which choice should a beekeeper be making? (One involves more work.)


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Ian said:


> This is where you are wrong. Lazy is a terrible way of stating your intention here. Its not lazy at all, it the way we manage our unknowns.
> I love the way your thinking but Lazy is wrong. Are you basing this assumption on someone you know?


I am always hardest on myself. I watched my father make similar mistakes. I have seen many others do it as well. If I had not made the statement would anyone be commenting?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JodieToadie said:


> Which choice should a beekeeper be making? (One involves more work.)


are you looking for dialog or a fight? that kind of talk starts fights...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I use to bring in Italians, but could not keep them from starving throughout the winter. I brought in some good Carni stock, and they winter much more conservatively and dont require huge amounts of late winter work to keep them alive. Jodie if your having trouble with starvation, look into Carni queens


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Ian said:


> I use to bring in Italians, but could not keep them from starving throughout the winter. I brought in some good Carni stock, and they winter much more conservatively and dont require huge amounts of late winter work to keep them alive. Jodie if your having trouble with starvation, look into Carni queens


I am in full agreement on the queens, it is all I buy. Certain environmental triggers in my operation may have caused the weight loss. I had a warming trend in January, I think you had the same. Then another in mid-march I think you also had the same. Controlling temperature became impossible. I believe this triggered a ramp in brood rearing. Which in turn triggered the bees to consume more stores. I peaked at 17C on my hives and they spent a lot of time hovering in the 12 - 13 Centigrade range during the days. I worked my ass off but am I lazy yes. I could have fed earlier and harder and reduced the brood chamber further. I could have put more fans in. I could have calculated airflow better. Do I think my bees should die because if my errors? No not a chance. Do I want to think differently? Yes. The more control I have the better. The more solutions I have the better. I am completely unconvinced the other than breed (Carniolan vs. Italian) there is any genetic variable on winter stores consumption that I wouldn't want in my apiary. I have a very good idea of which queens I have in which hives and the pattern is completely random.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

what errors are you talking about? and why are your bees dying? Its not about being lazy, that is not being prepared...
Your complaining about other beekeepers bees dying because of starvation? Tough luck for them, they should of had their hives better prepared. Why does it matter to you? That is their management issues, not yours. 

Jodie, we walk out into the yard, after the snow bank has melted or in my case when I finally set out my hives from the shed, open them up and begin the beekeeping year once again. Look inside, and feed if they need it. If there are some that starved, tough luck. If all of them have starved, then we better readjust that fall time beekeeping strategy. That is what it is, its all we can do... what more do you want beekeepers to do?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JodieToadie said:


> I had a warming trend in January, I think you had the same. Then another in mid-march I think you also had the same.


No warming trend here, maybe two days above feezing since November... March has yielded at least a week above zero temps, but nights still dipping below 20
Our winter makes wintering indoors ideal


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

JodieToadie said:


> Of all the comments you are the only one who seems to get the purpose of my post. How do we overcome? (What a silly thought, applying science to a problem. LOL) How can we set up an apiary to monitor and intervene when necessary? I looked at your website, I am a skeptic. However, have you consider experimenting with self-regulating heat trace to keep the hive warm? It naturally regulates based on surrounding temp and would be a more precise application of heat. I also appreciate the fact you are trying something different. Good job!


I think a knowledge of the basics regarding the heat equation that I mentioned, empowers us to act more intelligently to manage the dynamics of the elements that we can't control. If we have made preparations for a moderate winter, and we end up with an extreme winter, we must either act quickly with an appropriate adjustment, or the writing is on the wall. We are seeing that failure to appropriately adjust, means total loss, and then genetics, or disease, or quality of feed, and all other, what I consider to be lessor factors, fall out of the equation, and we are faced with nothing but loss, and we don't need to worry about opinion or who's right or wrong. With very high losses being reported in many locations, in spite of much effort, on the part of the beekeepers, I merely suggest that we're missing the critical mark, (The golden Triangle that I mentioned) and this thread is about finer points, or what I suggest, are lessor factors in survival.

JodieToadie, I appreciate your comments and skepticism. To address your question, I am very familiar with heat tape and most all of the other methods that I have seen attempted, with regard to heating hives. I disagree that heat tape would be a more precise application of heat. Given my original post in this thread and parameters mentioned, I believe that external methods of heat and control, are not as important as understanding and acting on internal parameters. In other words, by acting internally, I remove all the unknown parameters of insulation, varying bee mass, location, genetics, disease etc. I'm measuring exactly what is happening to the bees themselves and assisting as necessary.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

the only farming that doesn't let bad stock die? really? Do you think the Bulls and Cows that produce wimpy calfs are the ones who get to stay for years in the nice breeding pen and eat good food all day?


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Jodie I'm always looking for the lazy easy out. If I can get equal results with less work that's the route I will take. 
I use to have a problems with the largest hives starving as well. Changing to Carnis helped but open feeding pretty much solved starving problems for me. Big hives get the amount of feed they need.
I manage for averages and readjust my management if I don't like the results. Might lose one or two but didn't spend every waking hour trying to save the last 1%. Easy getting caught up spending 80% of the time on the 20% that are duds.
If they starve I assume they must have been queenless and didn't take syrup well.


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

brownbuff75 said:


> "I personally think genetics plays a very small role in winter survival. Or a much smaller role than is assumed. "
> 
> Genetics, to a point, has a lot to do with winter survival. A colony's ability to survive in any situation is based on its genetics. For example: if you have two hives that are feral and have identical weights of stores and conditions. Only one survives and the other starves out. The one that survives can pass on its genes whatever it is that makes them better at surviving winters in that location. Now throw a beekeeper in the mix with all the tools of the trade. If the beekeeper adds enough stores or heat or some other practice to the lesser hive and it survives. Now both hives can pass on there genetics. Now if this goes on long enough and the keeper keeps splitting these hives and a curveball of a winter hits he will more than likely loose a lot of hives. If the beekeeper has just a few hives, they might do(if they have the knowledge to do so) whatever it take to help that hive along for it to survive because more than likely they can afford it. When you start to get into the 100's to 1000's of hives it might not be as cost or time efficient in the long haul to try to baby the hives thru the winter. In other words, let genetics prevail and try to pass those genes on.
> 
> Why wouldn't it be reasonable to expect breeding practices or genetics to accomplish the same thing? If you had a choice of 2 types of hives, hive A and hive B. Hive A requires a lot of babying to get thru the winter and Hive B requires little to non, which one would you choose? Lets even say the cost of getting Hive A thru the winter cost $10 and hive B requires $5. Now times that by 100 or 1000.... it wouldn't take long, if your a commercial person, to initiate a breeding program to propagate genetics with the lowest wintering costs.


The intended point of my comment, isn't against the value of using genetics to support winter survival, I'm certain that it is possible to affect winter survival with genetics, or quality of feed or supplements, etc. So I'm not in any disagreement or take issue with Michael Palmer or any others at this point. My comment was specifically intended to identify that there are factors related to the laws of nature, i.e. physics, that absolutely apply to this discussion, that basically dictate the ballpark - so to speak, which must be observed to even allow for any of the rest of this discussion to be possible. In other words, factors like the severity of the cold season, the level of adequacy of the hive body at shielding the bees from that environment, both temperature and wind chill, and the quantity of bees and the related quantity of honey stores, are all factors that have greater impact on survival than the genetics, or state of health, or many other contributing factors to survival.

My point or comment is that I believe the parameters of: severity, insulation, number of bees, and corresponding stores requirements, are greater and more course factors, with genetics, disease, quality of feed etc. being more fine or subtle factors in survival. So gross errors in the "BIGGIES" CAN'T BE MADE UP FOR, OR COMPENSATED FOR BY, "SMALLIES". So if the severity exceeds the capacity of the bees ability to warm their space, with the given materials, or the length of the severity exceeds the stores, if they are adequate in numbers for their space and preparations for the ideal hive, then all other factors become moot.

I'm sure that my comment falls in the "Well Duh!" category, but I don't believe that you can totally solve the problem of successful overwintering, strictly with genetics. If we're not in the ball park with the obvious physics, then we're not in the game at all! If we have a winter that is well beyond average, an active and timely adjustment to what has been done in preparations in the past, must be made! Probably intuitively obvious to the untrained observer and outside of the original context, so throw it out and continue!


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## FollowtheHoney (Mar 31, 2014)

Other than beekeeping; what other farming would find this as acceptable? 

Sorry, first post and could not figure out quotes. 

I believe this is customary in all farming. If an individual livestock cannot thrive, produce quality offspring, milk or meat they will not be bred and will end up in the farmer's freezer while there is still some value to be extracted. 

If we do our best to give the bees a good chance to make it through the winter and they don't then perhaps we have culled an unproductive or inefficient member of the Apiary.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Barry said:


> Please explain how you would "take action" in the middle of the winter I just went through?


By taking it before winter.

Here we will soon be going into winter, have nearly finished prepping the hives for winter which means they have enough food & will not need looking at for 5 months, no reason why I should lose any, except for queen failures which seem to occur nowadays.

Having said that winters here are a whole different ball game to what some of you guys call winter. I would love to go to say, Canada for a couple seasons & test my skills, would be a huge learning experience.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

JodieToadie said:


> Which choice should a beekeeper be making? (One involves more work.)


Both.


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## jredburn (Feb 25, 2012)

I am a bee keeper in SW Florida and I do not know much, if anything about overwintering bees. I do know more than a little bit about heat transfer, ventilation, insulation etc. so I thought I would try to contribute a little to the discussion of the problem.
One of the first things I see in this discussion is that some seem to take personal offense at the authors comments and they reply in an argumentative manner. Lets take the discussion to a generalized level and maybe we can improve the success rate on overwintering.
If I understand the process a hive of two deeps is wrapped in insulation and closed up for the duration. The first question I have is, do any of you set the hive on the bare ground or do you put insulation under the boxes? Bare frozen ground will suck heat out of the hive 24/7. Four to six inches of foam insulation under the boxes will cut down on heat loss considerably.
Second question, do you seal the insulation so that there are no holes or cracks that let cold air in? A crack 1/8" wide by 2" long will ruin the insulation value of the wrapping. Water conducts heat 8 time faster than air and air transfers heat 8 times faster than wood/insulation.
Third question, if you seal the insulation airtight, how much oxygen do the bees require over the winter? Anybody know? A double deep has approx 80,000 cubic centimeters of volume in it. If you have put 40,000 bees in the hive, there is only 2 cubic centimeters of space for the bee and its air. You may be suffocating the bees. I don't know.
Fourth question, how big a problem is condensation and where does it come from? Cold air is dry air and so there is going to be a minamin amout of water vapor enter the hive even if there is some venalation. Since it appears on the top of the hive it evidently condenses out of the warm air generated by the bees. Think about a sheet metal cover over the top of the frames, that was placed on a slant and used to drain the water to one corner and into a drain pipe where it could be eliminated. Would that help?
Fifth question, do any of you group your hives together in bunches? Similar to the way the commercial guys load semis. If you put a bunch of hives adjacent to each other and left a 3' or 4" space between rows, covered the perimeter and top with hay bales, put a canvas tent over the whole thing you would have a much more efficient structure for keeping a constant temperature inside the hives. It would eliminate false starts in the spring because the inside part would still be slow to gain heat and would gradually warm up instead of going through freeze/thaw/freeze cycles.
Regards
Joe


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Moisture comes from bee breath and the consumption of honey. You cannot seal up the hive or you will have a dead one for sure. Honey or some substitute is needed so the bees can work to heat the cluster core. Bees are both the insulator for the cluster and the heat generators.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

JodieToadie said:


> Okay... such as?


1. That you KNOW that beeks with starving hives are lazy, not checking, etc. 2. that you understand all there is to know about bee genetics/epigenetics and and how it functions in every environment, genetics determines almost everything that bees do (humans too for that matter...) so saying is not genetics shows a lack of understanding of genetics of the hive. Now if a beek was greedy and took too much honey off, genetics can't solve that, but if sufficient honey was left and the bees starved, then genetics is to blame.

I think the main issue, at least this year, is preparing for a normal winter when we had an extreme one. Not lazy, just impossible to prepare for. All of my hives had pounds of dry sugar on top, and they still starved.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Allen Martens said:


> Jodie I'm always looking for the lazy easy out. If I can get equal results with less work that's the route I will take.
> I use to have a problems with the largest hives starving as well. Changing to Carnis helped but open feeding pretty much solved starving problems for me. Big hives get the amount of feed they need.
> I manage for averages and readjust my management if I don't like the results. Might lose one or two but didn't spend every waking hour trying to save the last 1%. Easy getting caught up spending 80% of the time on the 20% that are duds.
> If they starve I assume they must have been queenless and didn't take syrup well.


Exactly, you undestand Lazy. It is not necessarily derogatory. I like it! As well as th 80/20 rule and the law of diminishing returns. Love it!


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

jredburn said:


> I am a bee keeper in SW Florida and I do not know much, if anything about overwintering bees. I do know more than a little bit about heat transfer, ventilation, insulation etc. so I thought I would try to contribute a little to the discussion of the problem.
> One of the first things I see in this discussion is that some seem to take personal offense at the authors comments and they reply in an argumentative manner. Lets take the discussion to a generalized level and maybe we can improve the success rate on overwintering.
> If I understand the process a hive of two deeps is wrapped in insulation and closed up for the duration. The first question I have is, do any of you set the hive on the bare ground or do you put insulation under the boxes? Bare frozen ground will suck heat out of the hive 24/7. Four to six inches of foam insulation under the boxes will cut down on heat loss considerably.
> Second question, do you seal the insulation so that there are no holes or cracks that let cold air in? A crack 1/8" wide by 2" long will ruin the insulation value of the wrapping. Water conducts heat 8 time faster than air and air transfers heat 8 times faster than wood/insulation.
> ...


Like your way of thinking! I think bottoms are up on a pallet wintering outside. I do not think there is insulation on bottom, possibly if the skirting extended to the ground. Nice and thoughtful post, thank you!


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

JakeDatc said:


> the only farming that doesn't let bad stock die? really? Do you think the Bulls and Cows that produce wimpy calfs are the ones who get to stay for years in the nice breeding pen and eat good food all day?


Exactly jake, you don't let it starve. You feed the cow till you can butcher. Identical to what I propose. You feed the bees till spring and requeen. You've already got the lions share of feed into them plus medication. Would it make sense to let them starve over 10-20$ worth of sugar? You positively would not do that with a cow. You'd fatten it up and butcher it. Reclaim as much as you could. 

So the economics as I see it: I have already fed them and medicated them. That money is gone, either way it is gone. Starved or survived. So after that it is straight up what is 20-40lbs of feed worth+an eventual queen vs. a dead hive? Remeber it probably 50% i need to requeen that hive anyway in spring so that might not even belong in the math.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

hilreal said:


> 1. That you KNOW that beeks with starving hives are lazy, not checking, etc. 2. that you understand all there is to know about bee genetics/epigenetics and and how it functions in every environment, genetics determines almost everything that bees do (humans too for that matter...) so saying is not genetics shows a lack of understanding of genetics of the hive. Now if a beek was greedy and took too much honey off, genetics can't solve that, but if sufficient honey was left and the bees starved, then genetics is to blame.
> 
> I think the main issue, at least this year, is preparing for a normal winter when we had an extreme one. Not lazy, just impossible to prepare for. All of my hives had pounds of dry sugar on top, and they still starved.


If you think I claim to know anything about genetics you have misread my postings. I know enough to question how much of a role genetics actually plays vs. weather and a clumsy beekeeper.


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

JodieToadie said:


> If you think I claim to know anything about genetics you have misread my postings. I know enough to question how much of a role genetics actually plays vs. weather and a clumsy beekeeper.


My thoughts leading to my post, were to ask the question if perhaps, some of our paradigms might need some tweaking? For example, I'm aware that beekeepers have many varied objectives, and therefore different needs, with regard to colony sizes for overwintering. I understand that those who make queens, need many finishing NUC's, and not large hives. I understand that honey production wants to maximize honey take-off yields, and reducing the colony size for winter, allows for maximum harvest with minimal colony size to overwinter with less honey stores. My point in bringing up the physics, is to say that minimal winter configurations, by definition, place those colonies in a position of higher stress, with regard to sustainable heat levels. My point isn't to cry foul, or judge their reasons, but to simply state that, unless some form of extra, above average precaution is taken in the minimal configurations, such as wintering indoors, or applying significantly more insulation than a normal hive would require, or devising methods of artificial heat, like the sheds, or grouping hives with a space heater, such as Michael Bush does, or an in-hive warmer like my design, overwintering NUC's, or diminished configurations without the extra above normal precautions, would inevitably result in failure, during severe events.

Recognize that a tree trunk is most often, considerably thicker than our traditional hive structures, and closed off quite tightly from wind and rain. The R-Facotr or insulation rating of standard pine wood at 3/4" thick or even 1 1/2 inch, is quite dismal, and yet we place hives like these out in the weather, with minimal additional protection all the time, and wonder why they don't make it? I challenge anyone to go spend the night in your modern car that is air tight, out in your driveway, in 20 deg F temperatures, without a coat or blanket, and see how you fair. Before anybody get anxious, I would say, to be even close to an exemplar of what we are expecting our hives to do, we can invite 3 or 4 friends to join us in the car to more closely approximate the ratio of space to warm bodies. I expect that if a true analysis were done on the insulation used in a car as compared to that of the typical hive body, it might be similar if not slightly better. 

The point of this mental exercise is that simply wrapping a hive in tar paper, which increases the wind brake, and a piece of foam on the roof, doesn't cut it, in my opinion. Our homes are not just insulated on the roof! We insulate all the sides as well, and not losely. In harsh climates we change to 2x6 construction to increase the R-Factor of insulation on all sides, and outside exposed walls. If we get it wrong, or do it poorly, we simply pay more to heat our homes. If we get it wrong with our beehives, if it is even still possible for them to survive, they are at least going to consume more calories, i.e. we get to harvest less honey. So rather than design beehives to just get by, perhaps moving the needle to the right a smidge, toward overkill in the insulation department, might secure a higher rate of survival, and a higher corresponding portion of the honey harvest...

Yes they sometimes are found in a tree with no box or enclosure and survive cold winters, but not if some human decides to take most of the honey and artificially reduce their numbers to a small configuration, so they won't starve with what is left... (I heard some of you thinking all the way from here.)


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

> "The point of this mental exercise is that simply wrapping a hive in tar paper, which increases the wind brake, and a piece of foam on the roof, doesn't cut it, in my opinion."


Michael Palmer does just that, with top and bottom entrances so they have ventilation once they get buried in the snow. Snow is an amazing insulator. go build a snow cave or igloo and see for yourself. 

he also has bees that move less and eat less. 

jodie you're taking some pretty big swings about genetics for someone who doesn't know about genetics. personally, i'll go with the guy who hasn't bought bees in 10+ years and overwinters hundreds of hives and nucs with well known success. perhaps a refresher course https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFanJbaigM4


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I do agree that insulating hives is the key to their survival in a harsh winter climate.


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

No contest on snow as an insulator. I'm a scoutmaster and know about snow caves! totally agree, but without snow, tar paper by itself, is nothing more than a little rain and wind brake, with maybe some dead air space... Again, my intention isn't to dis the tar paper method, it is merely one of many examples, that while they contribute significantly, but without additional insulation, may not be enough.

Here is a link I got from AKDan, about wintering 5 ea 2-frame nucs in clusters, that shows exactly what I mean about insulating... This method also places the nucs together to be additive in overall bee count http://mbbeekeeping.com/wintering-2-frame-nucs-in-manitoba/ Thanks to AKDan for sending me this link!


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## Leather Jim (Jun 30, 2013)

I believe the primary purpose of a 15lb felt wrap is for some solar gain in the cold weather.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

warmbees said:


> So rather than design beehives to just get by, perhaps moving the needle to the right a smidge, toward overkill in the insulation department,...


What makes you think it is not already there. As I understand it your post is just your thoughts on this method of keepign smaller hives. Have you attempted it. Have you seen the results of how these small hives over winter? I have now kept 5 over 5 (A deep and a medium) through two winters. I do not group them. I do not stack them. I do not wrap them and I do not insulate them. The only one I have lost was due to robbing.

My thinking is that there is a minimal size to a cluster that can contend with the cold. My observations indicate that a cluster in a 5 frame or even a 4 frame nuc is not only adequate but well into overkill for that minimal size already. I have seen clusters much smaller than that successfully over winter.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Sorry pics are upside down. Here is a strong hive I lost to starvation. It was a single, that weighed 84 lbs going into winter. I had noted on the lid that it was an awesome queen, with 9 frames of brood in early September. I pulled 2 frames of brood out to ensure they had somewhere to store feed before winter. When entering the wintering shed, I noticed several times that this particular hive had more bearding, and when I would lift the lid the bees were basically boiling over. 

So should I be happy that this one didn't make it? Or should I have put a gallon of syrup on it when I noticed it was huge, and light as a feather.

Luke


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## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

My thinking is that there is a minimal size to a cluster that can contend with the cold. My observations indicate that a cluster in a 5 frame or even a 4 frame nuc is not only adequate but well into overkill for that minimal size already. I have seen clusters much smaller than that successfully over winter. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Dan you are right. I tryed an experment this winter with 3 mateing nucs, 2 of them were 4 over 4 and one was 5 over 5 stand alones. All 3 made it through our cold winter I put sugar on top of them all. the 2 4 framers died last week, ran out of honey and the sugar didn`t cut it. they all had brood too. the 5x5 I re hived yesterday with 1:1 feed . Cold didn`t kill them. ,,,Pete N3SKI


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

sharpdog said:


> So should I be happy that this one didn't make it? Or should I have put a gallon of syrup on it when I noticed it was huge, and light as a feather.
> 
> Luke


double it up in the fall! pour the feed into it!


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

sharpdog said:


> View attachment 9873
> View attachment 9874
> Sorry pics are upside down. Here is a strong hive I lost to starvation. It was a single, that weighed 84 lbs going into winter. I had noted on the lid that it was an awesome queen, with 9 frames of brood in early September. I pulled 2 frames of brood out to ensure they had somewhere to store feed before winter. When entering the wintering shed, I noticed several times that this particular hive had more bearding, and when I would lift the lid the bees were basically boiling over.
> 
> ...


Well you know where I stand. I would pour the feed to it. I believe we could possibly be losing some of the best queens and best genes with the survival of the 'least fit' policy. 

Meaning we are looking for 'average' clusters with miserly traits. We MIGHT be looking at the problem somewhat backwards as a group.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I disagree Jodie. I want a bee that will winter a large cluster in a single box. I dont want a large cluster that cant make the winter...
your making an assumption that a moderate sized cluster is lousy. Mine will yield a split plus 200lbs of honey


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Ian said:


> I disagree Jodie. I want a bee that will winter a large cluster in a single box. I dont want a large cluster that cant make the winter...
> your making an assumption that a moderate sized cluster is lousy. Mine will yield a split plus 200lbs of honey


We want the same thing. I just enjoy looking at the problem differently. (Like you said 'It's been a long winter') Do you believe the problem is genetic? 

I think I do similar if not identical wintering methods as you (albeit on a 1/10 scale at the moment). I don't have pallets so my target weight it ~80lbs per hive (including top, bottom, lid, 10 frames, and bees)

So the math would be ~37 pounds of feed, ~43 pounds of bees and equipment.
I understand the goal is to crowd the brood nest to the point where there is only a softball sized brood area left in the box. 

I have seen some queens just won't slow down fast enough, or ramp up too early. (My observation is they would be usually the most prolific from the year before)

I know it is a game of averages. If I knew how to start a survey on here I would ask how many believe it is genetic vs. environmental. 

Also Ian, I know you are hair straight back in another week or two but I would sure love even an estimate on the amount of hives you think you lost to this problem vs. other issues. (Not that I hope you lost any.) Most beekeepers that have commented do not believe it is an issue from what I can tell.


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## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

I should have added they were 1/2 frame mini nucs, tiny clusters, I was told they were carnies.,,,,,,,,Pete N3SKI


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I think it's probably a combination of genetic and environmental. Some races are more likely to stay broodless during winter. I assume there is variation within a race that could be used to breed for less winter brood and a lower chance of survival. Beekeepers can do a lot to increase survival. 
I don't normally need to mess with my bees in winter and would like to keep it that way. I rarely have bees starve during winter. Check 50 hives last week and had one that appeared to be starved. Don't like to see that but maybe it was queenless going into winter.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Allen Martens said:


> I think it's probably a combination of genetic and environmental. Some races are more likely to stay broodless during winter. I assume there is variation within a race that could be used to breed for less winter brood and a lower chance of survival. Beekeepers can do a lot to increase survival.
> I don't normally need to mess with my bees in winter and would like to keep it that way. I rarely have bees starve during winter. Check 50 hives last week and had one that appeared to be starved. Don't like to see that but maybe it was queenless going into winter.


Allen, how many hives do you run?


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Ian said:


> double it up in the fall! pour the feed into it!


How would I know to, or why would I double up what looked like one of my best hives and queens going into winter? It was stuffed with brood in early September and up to weight by mid October. 

Luke


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JodieToadie said:


> clusters with miserly traits. We MIGHT be looking at the problem somewhat backwards as a group.


What is your target cluster size when putting your bees away?

Jodie, Im looking at about a 5% or less starvation right now. How would you categorize my starvation losses? Lazy?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

sharpdog said:


> stuffed with brood in early September and up to weight by mid October.
> 
> Luke


wintering huge hives like that in a single is a gamble Luke. Some of mine went in like that, and still are alive, some looks to have starved. the easy thing to do would be to double up the boxes and double your feed budget. What else can you do? what else can you expect?


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Ian said:


> What is your target cluster size when putting your bees away?
> 
> Jodie, Im looking at about a 5% or less starvation right now. How would you categorize my starvation losses? Lazy?


You're not still gravitating toward the lazy comment are you? Allen got what I meant I thought you would too. Lazy is not always derogatory. 5% might be an opportunity or an acceptable loss it all depends on your outlook. I can't afford losses so I see it as an opportunity to improve. I see this as my biggest opportunity in winter when I have nothing better to do. But I asked about genetics because I don't like to waste my time. I am very lazy and don't like urinating into the wind.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Ian said:


> What is your target cluster size when putting your bees away?


Some were bearded out the front with a pound of bees and some were 7-8 frames. I didn't let any small clusters in the barn.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I want bees that you don't have to feed, or baby sit, pollinates the gardens, produces a slight surplus and is not aggressive. I think natural selection is the way to my goals with the exception of aggression. I need to take care of that.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JodieToadie said:


> You're not still gravitating toward the lazy comment are you? Lazy is not always derogatory.


It always is in my book.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Ian said:


> wintering huge hives like that in a single is a gamble Luke. Some of mine went in like that, and still are alive, some looks to have starved. the easy thing to do would be to double up the boxes and double your feed budget. What else can you do? what else can you expect?


I think that Jodie's point is that these hives are the real opportunities. If 50% of the biggest hives fail simply due to running out of feed, what would it take to get these boomers up to the same survival rate as a 7-8 framer? If these queens were the best going into the barn, they will likely be the best coming out if we can get them to survive.

Luke


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

sharpdog said:


> what would it take to get these boomers up to the same survival rate as a 7-8 framer?
> Luke


two boxes of feed


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Ian said:


> wintering huge hives like that in a single is a gamble Luke. Some of mine went in like that, and still are alive, some looks to have starved. the easy thing to do would be to double up the boxes and double your feed budget. What else can you do? what else can you expect?


You may be right, in an old experiment that took place at the beaverlodge research station, they placed a super full of honey on the single brood chamber just after putting the bees away, and survival rates were improved. Doing this to the largest 5% of our hives, may be all it would take to save some the best hives, instead of leaving it up to fate.
Luke


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I remember talking to an old beekeeper when I first started into this business. He was commenting on my wintering strategy. At that time my winter hive size was targeted at two boxes of bees sitting on two boxes of feed (Outdoor management). He asked me a question, and I'm quoting exactly what he said "are you feeding your bees, or are your bees feeding you?" It took me nearly 10 years to figure out what he meant, but I never forgot that comment. He was one of the pioneers with indoor wintering.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Jodi, Your post number 73 is what inspired my thoughts. but my comments are in no way targeted to you. just the general thinking.

First of all, your comment that you think differently. My concern with that comment is. Can the thinking be supported by observations. The specific thought I have in mind not saying you have made it. That larger clusters will do better in winter. But do they? In my experience they do not.

You then go on to mention a target. My question is why is there a target in the first place. I see many beekeepers set targets like that is the best way to do it. I do not find this is true. I have had tiny clusters make it through winter and I have had large colonies make it through winter. one did do better than the other in the long run. For me it is more about being capable of managing both as well as the infinite variety in between. Do you know the problem with the small cluster and how to address it. do you know the problems that can happen with the large one. Do you know why a soft ball size brood nest is ideal? What are you to do if you cannot achieve ideal ever?

I agree ideal bee would be far easier to keep. But my bees are real bees so I have to learn to manage those. Of 8 nucs I over wintered. two are already built up to 20 frames and ready for 10 more. 4 are still in three 5 frame boxes stacked on top of each other and will be moved to 10 fraems equipment any day and two seem to perpetually be determined to die out. I am not looking for ideal or normal. I am managing what is and looking for the exceptional. I am not interested in striving for merely ideal.

Overall I see the pursuit of ideal as futile. you will never achieve it reliably enough for it to be a majority of what you manage. Manage the extremes and the middle ground where most hives reside will take care of itself. As far as the know how is concerned.

On the subject of feeding and genetics. I hold to the thinking that no breeding can be effective unless the subjects being selected are kept in pristine conditions. Traits must first be expressed in order to be accurately selected. It is nothing new that you develop undesirable traits in this process. in fact it is well known you develop far more undesirable traits int eh attempt to develop a hand full of desirable ones. that is breeding. I do not even know what to call what I see beekeepers doing. The attempt to simply produce the ideal bee having all desirable traits meet at one point by nothing more than random chance is ridiculous. What if the mite immune bee is own that is so mean it could chew through a suit of armor and kill you with a single sting? I think treatments begin to look pretty good at that point. More realistically what if breeding the resistant bee means we settle for less than stellar in every other trait we desire in bees?

Is anyone crunching the complex formulas. A resistant colony that survives for 3 seasons and produces 75 lbs of honey per season is better than one that only survives one season and makes 200lbs of honey. I save replacement costs and efforts. all treatment and all additional management effort on top of producing more honey per colony over it's life time. So which is better the weak colony that lives or the strong colony that does not. Beekeeping is full of such contradictions. so much so that it is actually more like the norm. We insist on evolving bee keeping to standard methods of husbandry while the bees has time and time again demonstrated it is anything but typical. It does not breed the same. ti does not react to management the same it dos not respond to manipulation intervention or even treatment the same. Move a cow to a warm barn for winter it will fair better. you will kill bees with that same management.

To label it with modern terminology bees are anything but intuitive. I don't tend to rely much on what I would think.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Daniel Y said:


> You then go on to mention a target. My question is why is there a target in the first place. I see many beekeepers set targets like that is the best way to do it. I do not find this is true.


To be fair I asked Jodie what her targets were. 
I run my operation setting targets. Its the best way to be able to measure how well the bees are performing during the season. Dan, you could run an operation with large hives, and small hives and without any consistency, its not a wrong way to beekeep. I choose to run my operation which focuses on uniformity. Helps with workload and helps understand what is happening throughout the season and helps predict whats going to happen


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> On the subject of feeding and genetics. I hold to the thinking that no breeding can be effective unless the subjects being selected are kept in pristine conditions. Traits must first be expressed in order to be accurately selected. It is nothing new that you develop undesirable traits in this process. in fact it is well known you develop far more undesirable traits int eh attempt to develop a hand full of desirable ones. that is breeding. I do not even know what to call what I see beekeepers doing. The attempt to simply produce the ideal bee having all desirable traits meet at one point by nothing more than random chance is ridiculous. What if the mite immune bee is own that is so mean it could chew through a suit of armor and kill you with a single sting? I think treatments begin to look pretty good at that point. More realistically what if breeding the resistant bee means we settle for less than stellar in every other trait we desire in bees?


Very thoughtful and to the point I am trying to discuss!


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Ian said:


> To be fair I asked Jodie what her targets were.
> I run my operation setting targets. Its the best way to be able to measure how well the bees are performing during the season. Dan, you could run an operation with large hives, and small hives and without any consistency, its not a wrong way to beekeep. I choose to run my operation which focuses on uniformity. Helps with workload and helps understand what is happening throughout the season and helps predict whats going to happen


I set lots of targets. For this year:
Survival rate of greater than 97%.
Target pollen patties March 24th. Done.
Target hives out of barn April 8th.
Target feed light hives April 8th-15th.
Target 1 gallon/month 2:1 till Dandelions. Target 2nd week of May.
Target requeen as required as soon as first evaluation done. Target 3rd week of April.
Addition of 50% hives by purchasing nucs. 
New comb drawn 4000-5000 frames. 
Split rate of 20% first week in July. Target total of 150-200 hives going in to honey flow this summer. 
Production target of (depending on weather) ~100-180lbs as I am drawing new comb it can be tricky.
Target Queen Exluders on 2-3 week in June. 
Target new wintering building to house 600 hives by October.
Depending on the production year. Target splitting late August - September 250-300 singles ready for winter.
Target final extracting mid-September. 
Target feeding 80lbs which is ~40lbs bees and equipment and ~40lbs feed. Softball sized brood chamber so the queen has a place to lay yet she should not be able to overproduce. 
IPM spring: Apivar, Oxytet X3 and Honey Bee Healthy for Nosema Cerenae. Option to add Fumigilan to mix X1 if Nosema (Apis or Ceranae) is a problem.
IPM Fall: Oxalic, Oxytet X3 and Honey Bee Healthy for same.
Target no queen rearing, I work full time and this is a sideline a the moment. If I cannot get queens for the aforementioned nucs I will raise myself. (Nicot, Graft or natural. Natural being preferred as it makes the best queens but it knocks the nucs back too long.)

I have targets for everything but they are dynamic and may change due to what I cannot control.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

JodieToadie said:


> Allen, how many hives do you run?


800 - 900


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Jodie, Once again your comments have caused me much thought. I think a face to face conversation would be very interesting. I may simply be splitting a hair but I make distinction between goals and plans.

My goal is to end the season with 207 hives. My plan to achieve that goal is long and complex just as I see your list above.

For example. Just one detail of my goal requires that I purchase over $9000 in equipment. In order to do that I need a plan that will produce that $9000. $9000 is not the goal. 207 hives is. 

I am free to alter the plan in accordance with the benefits I stand to gain. for example I have chosen to use on hive as a cell builder and attempt some grafting and queen rearing via Michael Bushes sustainable queen rearing method.

One big difference I see in myself and most others. and it has been specifically chosen to be this way. My goal never alters. My goal is what my goal is it does not move. I either achieve it or I do not. I may exceed it. I have very sound reasons for this. My goal was something I had total freedom in setting. once set I then evaluate my methods and skills in accordance with how close to that goal I came. If I over shoot it, am I settling for less than what can be achieved? if I miss it am I realistic about what I can do? If you are literally shooting at a target you do not get to move the target once you have fired the gun. If you did so what does it ever do to help improve my abilities. There is no requirement to hit a bulls eye at every target. If I simply shot and then moved the target. am I improving my ability to shoot or improving my ability to move the target? I simply find no value in learning to move targets.

Last year I set a goal of going from 4 hives to 23. On December 1st I had 21. By January 1st I had my 23 hives. now I call that a well set goal. And one hell of a job in achieving it. and that is what I expect. If my goal does not take everything in me and every brain cell of wit. I did not set it high enough.

I could loose every hive in my apiary and my goal would still not be reduced by one hive. Once set a goal never moves.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Daniel, I must know.... How did you arrive at the 207 hive target? 
Luke


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

Daniel Y said:


> What makes you think it is not already there. As I understand it your post is just your thoughts on this method of keepign smaller hives. Have you attempted it. Have you seen the results of how these small hives over winter? I have now kept 5 over 5 (A deep and a medium) through two winters. I do not group them. I do not stack them. I do not wrap them and I do not insulate them. The only one I have lost was due to robbing.
> 
> My thinking is that there is a minimal size to a cluster that can contend with the cold. My observations indicate that a cluster in a 5 frame or even a 4 frame nuc is not only adequate but well into overkill for that minimal size already. I have seen clusters much smaller than that successfully over winter.


Sorry for my delayed response. My reason for not believing we're already there, is that we are seeing another year of high losses in the cold climates. I'm just a hobbyist and don't have anywhere near the experience of the majority of this group of posters, but I am seeing larger hives failing, and not necessarily because of running out of feed. I know that varoa and other can play a large part in that, but I have a hard time believing it is responsible for the majority. So no, I'm not any kind of expert or authority on the subject, just a dangerous mind, I guess, for challenging the norm, when it appears that the norm may be struggling the past few years. I'm just trying to make sense of things.

And yet your last statement is exactly my same belief, and what my comments were intended for, and we appear to be thinking in the same direction. The question, I guess that I wanted under the microscope is, what is that golden mark where, what minimal cluster size, meets what maximum winter condition,(coldest temp and duration) and with what level of stores? Your observations of "5 frame nuc, or even a 4 frame nuc, is not only adequate but overkill" is for what maximum condition? How much feed did they have? Given zero further efforts or insulation? So at what temperature range would that 5 frame nuc no longer be enough, without adding insulation, or moving to a heated building, or adding a heater? 

I lost what I considered to be a strong hive at 1 and 1/2 boxes of Carnies and around 90 - 100 pounds of honey. And it was insulated on 2 sides, and bordered on 3rd side by another strong colony. I nearly lost a second, but happened to check it in the middle of it's collapse and intervened. I don't think our winter here went below zero, and the time period in question for me, I believe was in the 20's.

So rather than making the statement that perhaps we should examine a current paradigm, let me rephrase it as the question it was intended to be... Given your 5 frame nuc (1 deep, and 1/2) as the standard: With how much honey did it have? - What is the coldest temp it should be able to survive before adding additional measures?

I'm collaborating on a project in Alaska where the winters get down to -50 and last as long as 8 months. So my question and comments really aren't intended to stir the pot, but to really attempt to find the right answer, to maybe see if we can't help them successfully overwinter instead of just kill them off in the fall and start over in the spring, at twice the cost of a package here.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

warmbees said:


> I lost what I considered to be a strong hive at 1 and 1/2 boxes of Carnies and around 90 - 100 pounds of honey. And it was insulated on 2 sides, and bordered on 3rd side by another strong colony. I nearly lost a second, but happened to check it in the middle of it's collapse and intervened. I don't think our winter here went below zero, and the time period in question for me, I believe was in the 20's.


Given the carniolan bees, hive size, amount of feed, and temperature range you mention my strong feeling would be disease must have played a part. 

Primary suspects would be _N apis, N ceranae,_ DWV, and of course, varroa mites. Another thing, depending how pure the bees are, pure carnies can go down extremely small in winter & perish purely because of the small cluster size, but this is usually when they judge honey stores too low, in the presence of 90+lb's honey this is unlikely plus seems pretty much all US carnies are hybridised making this less of an issue.


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

OldTimer, thanks for your observation. We had purchased the pure carnie queen already mated, so I suspect they were pure. When I checked on them mid November, they appeared healthy and last I knew they were in both boxes.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

[QUOTE/]

So rather than making the statement that perhaps we should examine a current paradigm, let me rephrase it as the question it was intended to be... Given your 5 frame nuc (1 deep, and 1/2) as the I'm collaborating on a project in Alaska where the winters get down to -50 and last as long as 8 months. So my question and comments really aren't intended to stir the pot, but to really attempt to find the right answer, to maybe see if we can't help them successfully overwinter instead of just kill them off in the fall and start over in the spring, at twice the cost of a package here.[/QUOTE]
For your collaboration, I would say indoor wintering would be the logical solution. 
Up here which is Mile '0' on the Alaska highway, it would be tough to winter outdoors. We do 6 months indoors and it is documented that the bees can do ~230 days indoors without a cleansing flight. One problem I have observed, is that there MUST be a minimum cluster size come spring. The first thing that happens in spring is a cleansing flight. Bees are desperate to fly and will pick less than optimal conditions to attempt this cleansing flight. Thousands can and will die attempting this flight in these less than optimal conditions. Minimum cluster size come spring would have to be at least 3 frames. So starting out with 4 or 5 frames would give little margin for error. There also needs to be a minimum to heat the box as you are already aware.


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks JodieTodie for that information. Very helpful but then prompts more questions. What then do you hold your inside temperature at, and what would be the magical time or condition that would trigger the move to outside? Also do you have any comments on hive types given your scenario? Both collaborators from Alaska have tbh hives, but one is going to try overwintering with a warre. Thanks


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

warmbees said:


> Thanks JodieTodie for that information. Very helpful but then prompts more questions. What then do you hold your inside temperature at, and what would be the magical time or condition that would trigger the move to outside? Also do you have any comments on hive types given your scenario? Both collaborators from Alaska have tbh hives, but one is going to try overwintering with a warre. Thanks


Okay it is an odd thing us Canadians. I speak in pounds and feet but temperature is in Centigrade so forgive me. Internal temperature of the hive is left up to the bees. External ambient target is 5 degrees Centigrade, but MUST remain lower than ten at all costs. My magic target is hopefully when the temperature remains above zero Centigrade at night. As you can hopefully see from the picture I am having temperature regulation issues. This is today after 5 months of indoor storage. I would imagine that a TBH or small cell would all be the same. I am all standard deep Langstroth.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

sharpdog said:


> Daniel, I must know.... How did you arrive at the 207 hive target?
> Luke


Interestingly enough I can tell you.
2012 I started with 1 hive and ended with 4 for a 400% increase. in 2013 I started with those 4 and ended with 23 for right at a 600% increase. I attribute this improvement in increase largely due to better management and preparation. Still I consider we where playing catch up more than beekeeping.

600 is 1.5 times 400 and I still see plenty of room for improvement so I simply am looking for the same ratio of improvement and increase for this year or 900%. 23 times 9 is 207.

I do not think I will try it again. If I reach 207 a nine times factor for 2015 would be 1863.

So my goal is not much more than what the bees have indicated they can do. The problem is keepign up with it on my part. 

So far so good which has already included a lot of preparation work. There is still along way to go.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JodieToadie said:


> View attachment 9899
> 
> 
> As you can hopefully see from the picture I am having temperature regulation issues.


Have you thought of underground storage?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Warmbees, In general response to your last post. Since I cannot find a simply quote to copy but would simply re post your entire comment.

The only thing I have seen on the breaking point so far is approx 10 frames of bees for optimal over wintering. your location may vary. An article written by Randy Oliver indicated that any colony over that size will simply reduce in numbers over winter and one smaller will struggle to increase even in the coldest conditions. Using up food stores feeding brood when there is nothing to replenish with.

My personal experience with extremely low temperatures is pretty much none existent. We tend to have mild relatively snow free winters here. we also tend to have summer nights that fall to the 40's all the way through the season. Just showing that cold is a relative thing.

I see anything below 40 degrees is fatal to bees. so once below that temperature all bees have the same issue. I do see a difference in the energy requires to remain above the minimal temperature. bees at minus 20 need more calories to warm a cluster than those at plus 20 degrees.

I see a cluster remaining warm as a complex mixture of factors. Here is the list I have so far and I do not think it is complete.

Ventilation. I see reason to think that many colonies die of asphyxiation as much as they do from lack of food or freezing. I think this may explain at least some of the colonies that are found dead right next to cells of honey.

I do not think it takes much ventilation to remove moisture from a colony. I believe this due to my experience with keeping an egg incubator humidified. even a pencil size whole in an incubator will result in complete loss of control of humidity. Remember it is the moisture not the air that is being removed. moisture can and will leave but leave the air behind.

Heat. Many argue that the bees warm the hive. I disagree. I know of no animal other than humans that warm the air around them they warm themselves the air around them remains at ambient temperature for the most part. There is likely to be a insignificant amount of heat loss from a cluster. If this is so then 30,000 bees at 20 below pretty much generates the same amount of heat energy to stay warm as those at plus 20. The problem is not making the heat it is retaining it. I suspect bees do this in several ways. 

1. there bodies alone are insulation. the bees cluster in such a way as to keep the heat in with their own bodies. It is critical that this configuration is not disturbed at any time. any movement on the bees part results in dramatic loss of heat and the need to regenerate it.

2. I believe the hives structure and contents itself acts as a heat sink to some degree. I believe that heat will conduct to honey wax and the other contents of the hive more readily than it will to air.

3. moisture is necessary in the winter so that when the temperature is high enough the bees can break and obtain more calories. How often this is necessary I do not know. I have seen many comments that bees at low temperatures are in very much a motionless state. Almost dormant but we know that bees to not become dormant. In all moisture or excess moisture in a hive is lethal. Although air is a poor conductor of heat water is one of the best.

4. air again. The bees must breath But fresh air comes at a cost. It replaces warm air. This is why I do not think bees warm the air. Keep in mind air will exchange oxygen carbon monoxide. moisture and even heat without the air moving. The bees need for oxygen is lower when clustered. Is it low enough that just the natural exchange of gases without real air movement is adequate?Again an issue of what amount of ventilation is enough. I do no agree that full screen bottom boards are necessary. I also wonder if wrapping hives in none breathable air tight water tight material such as roofing felt is not detrimental though. You are not doing a thing to keep heat in the heat never got past the bees cluster.

Finally I believe bees that remain dormant fair better than those that do not. In just one way you can see that every time a cluster breaks and the bees move they must eventual reform the cluster and regenerate the heat needed to keep it warm. I find it more of a challenge to keep my bees cool mid winter than warm enough. We have bright sunny days with the sun shining on exposed hives. those hives warm up and the bees become active. It happens even during the coldest part of winter. I believe this happens at 20 below just as commonly as it does at 20 above. It does not matter what the temperature is in the air surround the outside of a hive. what matters is what the temperature is right at the bees skin.

Low Humidity. low air movement. adequate ventilation and adequate cluster size to generate and retain heat. those are the issues I see in keeping bees alive through winter.


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

JodieToadie said:


> View attachment 9899
> 
> 
> Okay it is an odd thing us Canadians. I speak in pounds and feet but temperature is in Centigrade so forgive me. Internal temperature of the hive is left up to the bees. External ambient target is 5 degrees Centigrade, but MUST remain lower than ten at all costs. My magic target is hopefully when the temperature remains above zero Centigrade at night. As you can hopefully see from the picture I am having temperature regulation issues. This is today after 5 months of indoor storage. I would imagine that a TBH or small cell would all be the same. I am all standard deep Langstroth.


Thanks! Again very informative. A TBH or Top Bar Hive isn't very mobile since it is a horizontal configuration about 4 feet long. So not a great candidate to go inside easily. The Warre hive is at least similar to the langstroth in size of box, but uses bars instead of frames, so would possibly work for an inside option similar to yours. The challenge, of course, is having an inside heated space. For the hobbyist with only a few hives, it may not be practical.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> I believe this happens at 20 below just as commonly as it does at 20 above. It does not matter what the temperature is in the air surround the outside of a hive.


The bees are constantly heating the cluster space and brood space when ambient is below 90 degrees. There is no way a wooden lang hive will have enough solar gain to raise the temps 110 degrees. The bees will not be in cluster at 90 degrees and so they have to fan to cool the hive above these temperatures.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> Low Humidity. low air movement. adequate ventilation and adequate cluster size to generate and retain heat. those are the issues I see in keeping bees alive through winter.


I will not requote everything you just wrote. I would like to take this full circle and back on topic. The bees repond to all of what you stated above. These external factors have as much or more to do with consumption of food than genetics would. 

Humidity can and does trigger brood rearing which in turn burns calories.
Low air movement; we will have to agree to disagree on certain parts of your statement. In severe cold you will have to picture the cluster as a bubble. The hive as bubble around that bubble, the insulation or wrapping or building as another bubble, the wind break as another bubble. Depending on how you are wintering each has a very dramatic effect on calorie consumption which directly correlates to heat retention. The bees shiver or flex their bodies to create heat. If the ambient is low and there is too much ventialtion in the cluster, hive, insulation or building the cluster will become tighter and use more food to maintain temperature. If there is no food in the cluster, and it is too cold to leave the cluster the hive will die. You could argue freezing or starvation both would be correct.
Adequate ventilation is a problem almost in lock step with humidity. I would be hard pressed to think of any asphyxiation in any hives. (I know of no hives that would be so well packaged they would be oxygen starved. I believe that death due to cold tem[eratures from moisture buildup would come long before asphyxia.

Adequate cluster size is absolutely imperative. In my general area, I believe that I could winter a tiny, tiny hive (Even indoors like I do.). However during spring and the subsequent cleansing flight the mortality would be so high that there would not be enough bees remaining to survive and be prolific. 

Also to note, there seems a fallacy among beekeepers that brood rearing shuts down during winter. My observations tend to contradict this. Given adequate humidity, stores, viable queen, and cluster temeprature I have not observed a single hive without brood at any time that I have checked.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JodieToadie said:


> I have not observed a single hive without brood at any time that I have checked.


Are these indoor hives or outdoor hives?


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Acebird said:


> Are these indoor hives or outdoor hives?


Mine are indoors. It is entirely possible that outdoor would be different. I don't know of any beekeepers that would open a hive in the dead of winter to prove or disprove. It is also possible that given the correct core hive temperature, humidity, and food the results are identical.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I would think a beekeeper would have enough sense to bring the hive into a 10-20 centigrade ambient temperature to open up a hive to validate their claims.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

This helps to answer my question. As well as other questions that have come up here.

http://www.backyardbees.ca/files/winteringbeaverlodge.pdf


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