# Commercial Production of TBHs



## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

I plan on making a business, I still have a few years left in the military. My plan calls for all TBH hives I know the Langs produce more honey but I plan to breed and sell bees also so I will just make more hives. It only makes sense to cut down the overhead when starting. The one advantage I have is land, I have acess to hundreds of acres in three different towns and a commercial orchard.


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## AlpineJean (Apr 3, 2005)

Will you be staying in Germany? That land sounds beautiful. Les Crowder in New Mexico apparently runs about 100 top bars - maybe he will be a good source of info for you for commercial useage.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Heritage,

I've been a commercial beekeeper(4500hives)and I've had a few tbhs as a hobbiest.

A good business plan is essential. Making honey is one thing. Making a profit from honey is another. And there are lots of ways to get a profit. Some methods are more production focused. Others are more market focused.

Tbhs fit better with a more market focused approach where labor costs are minimized by restricting the scope of the operation. Tbhs require skilled labor and combs are individually handled. It's probably good for a one man or family operation where value can be added to the honey produced.

In contrast, a commercial beekeeper using standard equipment, handles supers and uses forklifts, etc. 

And there isn't any commercial large scale processing equipment for tbhs. A beekeeper would have to invent his own, which can be an expensive, failure prone process. Some processing equipment like spinners, etc could be used however.

Some Thoughts
Dennis


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## AlpineJean (Apr 3, 2005)

I read somewhere on this forum that you can maybe target a comb honey market to the senior citizen groups- like community center groups who meet for various reasons or VFWs and the like. The Seniors remember comb honey from their youth and like it. Whether they are willing to pay a price that covers your packaging and hauling it to them is another matter I suppose. If you dn't count the cost of your time and effort then maybe it would be profitable as a cottage supplemtary type goal. Also, beeswax is sold and on E-bay we saw today that a pound goes for about 5 bucks...


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> Les Crowder in New Mexico


http://home.att.net/~mcdonald/bees/


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Actually Dennis using a rolling pins setup is a very effect method of extracting honey and also pressing the wax into flat sheets which cut be again pressed together, cut and weighed for sale.

With the setup I am using it takes less time to process large amounts of honey that it does to use a production line uncapper and centrifugal extractor. It takes time to load it up, and takes time to spin all the honey out. Pressing a comb through the ringer takes the same amount of time as the uncapping does alone.


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## Heritage (May 10, 2005)

Scot, could you please elaborate on the "rolling pins setup"?


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Picture a clothes ringer with a set of plates on the backside to catch and peel foundation away from rolling pins. A screened catch bucket to catch and strain the honey.

Cut comb off bar, insert end into ringer and roll. Takes about 2 seconds to press each comb.


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## AlpineJean (Apr 3, 2005)

Is there a picture of that gizmo in your pictures?


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Scot,

It's very hard to keep a ex-commercial beekeeper down. I've thought alot about how to commercially process tbh comb. A twin stainless steel roller idea was one of my first options. But the working pressures and the limited area of contact between the rollers causes some significant problems.

But a single roller could be automated by setting it up on a cam for mutliple passes. That would do away with almost all of the problems. Neat idea Scot. Thanks for getting me out of the ringer washer :>)

I think there are several methods that would more than make up for the inefficiences of handling tbh comb when compared to handling frames. Another option would be to use a pugger type device. The wax crumbs could even be spot melted at the very end of the device.

These methods could be automated, could be applied in the field, and would result in significant savings, in both labor and fuel, when compared to convential extraction methods. 

Do you have a wooden prototype? Would doing it by hand be a better solution, for a hobbiest like myself, than a strainer? Scot, any suggestions for the small scale guy?

I have a few tbh honey combs and think I will do a little experimenting. I wonder where my wife keeps her roller? :>)

Regards
Dennis
Thinking tbh beekeeping gets more interesting all the time. You guys really come up with some neat ideas.


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## AlpineJean (Apr 3, 2005)

My husband and I were talking last night about the idea of marketing "natural comb honey" in that it would be sold as the comb is shaped in a flat box. Wonder if that sort of view of it would be appealing to the tourists around here for a good price? It's sort of ketchy.
The subject came up because we've been reading Taylor's "Joys of Beekeeping" and had come across the section on sections . Good book indeed Dennis.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Jean,
Comb honey really is a highly volotile. It might sell great, you might be holding it all until you finally extract it. Comb honey is ideal in most cases when it sells because it fetches the highest price and requires the least work. I understand though why most people prefer liquid honey. Its nice to dip a spoon in and pull clean honey out and not coat your teeth with wax.


Dennis wooden rollers work best, and they have to be large to prevent sheering and slippage. You don't squash the roller tightly together, you want to leave some play.

An alternative if you don't want to mess with that is to masticate the whole comb and then strain the mush. That's awefully oxidative though, and the capillary effect retains more honey than I like that way.


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## Heritage (May 10, 2005)

I've seen instructions for a honey press. This sounds similar to your roller system, except without moving rollers, just two plates that are pressed together. Is there a benefit to rolling that is not found with the press? It would seem a press could be built very easily that could handle numerous combs at one time and also eliminate the moving rollers altogether. It could be built to minimize the contact with the air, thus avoiding the oxidization mentioned above. Right? Am I on the right track here or am I way off base? I am imagining a press similar to the old apple cider presses (with some modifications of course). Any thoughts?


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Jean 
Yes, I will retire from the Army here shortly I have 20+ years in already and was going to go for a few more. I looked at my kids one night and saw how fast they were growing and decided I did not want to miss anymore. I like the country and people and the almost 0 crime rate around here so I will stay. Besides there are no commercial bee business in my area.
< >
I gave the roller thing a try, No matter what I did comb stuck to the wood, it was a catastrophe. I ended up giving everything back to bees. Wood is not the best material for the rollers, the material that restaurants use for counter tops and cutting boards is. I think it's called coraform or something like that. The only device I can remember along those lines that might work was a thin pizza dough roller I used when I was a kid working at Pizza Hut. It had scrapers that ran along the roller that removed anything stuck before it was pressed back into the dough.
With that all said I now use a wooden spatula and push the comb through wire mesh it falls on a strainer and empties into a bucket. I give the whole contraption back to the bees to clean out before I wash it, works great for small scale operations. I am not worried about how much honey stays with the wax the bees take care of that. Im not sure about the oxidation part stainless steel does not rust. If youre concerned about air bubbles they will float to the top eventually. If youre concerned about moisture I would rather have honey pushed through a strainer system not flung through the air. (Personal opinion) 
When you want to go a commercial operation you just have to design and build yourself something on a larger scale. The idea is K.I.S.S (keep it simple stupid). I have some ideas floating around but I haven't tested them yet. The idea to use buckets came from Dennis web site.
Just remember there is no need to over think anything to the point of a stroke. I wanted to keep bees because it is relaxing. There is already enough stress with running a business.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

A press is easy, but with the ringer, you get more honey pressed out which is better for honey production with less waste. Plus the wax is pressed better too with less honey contamination.


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## Heritage (May 10, 2005)

Sound interesting, but I have to agree with AlpineJean, do you have a pic somewhere? I'm having trouble visualizing it.


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## Bernhard (Jul 5, 2005)

Hi Scot,


I'm very interested in this setup, too! Got the same problems visualizing it! Do you have a pic for me?

Thanks,

Bernhard


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Its a clothes ringer setup...tha'ts pretty much it but the rolling pins need to be big so the comb doesn't jam. No I don't have pics


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## SleepyHollow (Sep 18, 2004)

Hi, I use a not so old cider press, comb goes into a heavy duty nylon sack and is them pressed. Works great for me.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Heritage, you really started an interesting thread here. Looks like the problems are design related. In Langs the supers are used to store the honey. Lang supers can be used on TBHs. They can be extracted anytime and several times. For honey they are placed over the honey, not over the brood chambers.

The bees continue to produce as long as they have a nectar flow and Top bars to put it in. You harvest when you want. Also note how many folk answered just assuming that you are harvesting both honey and wax. My interest in TBHs is mostly because they yield so much more wax than Langs.

Scot McPherson is right. Rollers would increase the efficiency but compound the complexity. More honey comes out. You end up with cleaner wax. But TBHers prefer simple designs. Maybe some will come up with something.

One more thing to consider. MB has TTBHs that are actually rectangular. They measure out to be a medium Lang that is three times as long as a lang and fits (I forget. But approx.) 34 Top Bars. These are easily supered because of the size and top bars and frames are interchangeable.

Good Luck,

Hawk


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Okay, I looked up Mr. Bush's triple Lang. It's 33 normal Lang frames long. You can actually measure by setting three lang boxes on top of it. Since Lang frames are 1 3/4 in. wide and Top Bars are 1/1/4 you can fit more than 33 in there.Look Here.

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/LongHive1.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/TTBHOpen.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/TTBHComb.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

Hawk


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Robert,
You can get just as much wax from langtroth hives, just go foundationless and cut the comb out of the frames. You can even use foundation frames, just let them draw it out once, and cut it out leaving the drawing of the midrib (foundation) in place, this will give the bees something like a starter strip all around but with the center cut out. TBHs don't produce more wax, they are just a simpler design. You can put TBH style practices into place in a langstroth and you can put langstroth style practices into place in a TBH. They just look different really. The differences are slight, but subtle in strength and effectiveness, such as solid topbars allowing for one opening in top of hive for inspections.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Robert,
Where in colorado? Marty Hardison is a member of DUG the Denver Urban Gardens. Perhaps you can get in touch with him, he has a sideline sized commercial TBH operation.

I have 48 hives presently and can't manage more because I don't have any time. When I get some financing I will move to full time beekeeping and will grow to 250 or 500 first year and double up each year for 5 years to 8000 hives.

With that many hives, you can see a press isn't really doable, a roller system will be the only way to go or a modified extractor that cages the combs instead of the frames supporting them during spin. I still don't think that's the best way to go though, higher failure and how to do automatic uncapping of very non-uniform terrain on combs?


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

dennis,
My suggestion to the small scale guy is to masticate by hand and use a fry master oil strainer. Its like a cone shaped colander used to strain fryer oil when you drain a fryer with smallish holes. The holes are small enough that you really don't need to strain finer that that. Just put balls of hand squashed comb into strainer to drip dry.


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## Heritage (May 10, 2005)

Scot, you mentioned uneven terrain on TBH combs - is this the norm? I was expecting straight, even combs, but noticed there are valleys and hills. I considered trying to shape them up, but since they were at least centered on the bar, and the hills and valleys were uniform, leaving the proper space between them, I figured I'd leave them alone. I did think about how awkward it would be to use an uncapping knife on the uneven surface. Glad to hear I'm not the only ones with goofy bees!


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Scott, if you don't mind me asking, what kind of yield are you getting from you 48 top bars in honey and wax? I'm looking to expand my apiary in the future but would likely max out at about 50 hives. Right now I'm thinking Langs, but keeping an open mind.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Gosh, I don't know.

So far I have exracted what I am estimating to be about 40 lbs of white honey from each of my hives. The white honey is a combination of citrus blossom and clover because I wasn't able to pull the citrus blossom before the clover flow started. This is when I went on a week's vacation and I was worrying the whole time about the loss of value. But alas family doesn't understand that. No biggy. I haven't sold any wax yet, I have only kept it stored, and I have no idea how much I have.

You see I have been focusing on getting my operation really flying, not so much on technical beekeeping, but getting financing, so when I do get in my hives its to get in, get work done and get out because I barely have enough time to close the hives back up. I get in them once every few weeks at present and that's really not enough.

I am in an akward situation right now. I can't work bees because I don't have time, and I have too many hives to manage because I work fulltime already. If I spend any spare time on the bees, my wife will *%^&*'ing kill me.

Quite frankly I can't explain the predicament I am in, and unless I can get financing I will find myself in the position to have to choose between my wife and the bees. If I can get financing, I have my trump card. If I can't get financing I have to give up the bees because in my wife's estimation they don't provide (regardless of the money I have provided already because of them).

Its a catch 22. Too many bees to work with full time job and family obligations, and can't quit job unless I can provide full income right off bat. This isn't a choice and its not just be patient and start slow, I can't grow anymore right now UNLESS I want to loose everything guaranteed (bees, house, wife & family). I need someone who wants to see this successful beekeeper become a successful BIG beekeeper. Working on it steadily but its hard to write business plans and cash flow analyses in the shadows of the night when no one is watching.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

I hear ya brother, thats what keeps me a hobbiest in all my varied interests. How to bring home the bacon, health insurance, etc. and have a rewarding carrer. Its that transition from a 9-5 to farm work, or other self-business that seems the most difficult. It requires the backing of the family, but also the realization that it could financially and emotionally break the family if the business fails. I'm thinking way down the road on getting out of my 9-5 but don't know if I'll ever succed either. Beekeeping will only be a part of the overall plan. Diversify, Diversify. Of course the 9-5 might fail on its own, it takes more and more to bring home the bacon and especially the health inusarance. The bacon you can grow yourself but MRIs, Cat Scans, breathing treatments, knee surgerys, birthing babies, and dental work is a different matter.

I think your on the right track with cheaper hives. Just as long as the business model will work. I would try and look at beekeeping industries in other countries where where langstroth equipment is too expensive. You've probably done some of that. Also, sounds like you need some business partners that are beekeeprs, more than just investors.

GOOD Luck, and may the powers that be, bee with you.


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## jalal (Sep 2, 2004)

good words Michael,

it can be the best thing you'll ever do also!

but i imagine it'll be hard to do it with tbhs, i'd suggest langs to start out any commercial operation, keyword being commercial.

if you can do it with tbh in the future, great, the langs can certainly help supplement it, no harm done.

how soon will you be going commercial michael?


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## AlpineJean (Apr 3, 2005)

I have read that moving TBHs is difficult. So, seems to me that a commercial outfit w/ TBHs would have to make sure that they had a stellar location for those hives to live as opposed to needing to ship them to follow pollination needs of agribusiness. But, I guess after harvesting the honey combs then you could move them w/ some support maybe for the brood combs (that if they are a little older might not break easily when moved) Seems tricky.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Jean,
Well I have to say yes and no, it depends on your design and intended purposes. I build my hives to be at least semi-permanant, meaning if I have to move them its because I have no choice not because I would choose to.

To move a TBH essentially what you need to do is harvest all surplus honey to lighten the load, and don't disturb the brood nest or any combs you plan on leaving in for the trip for at least a week. If you can, plan on being able to do the move at dusk so the bees don't have to deal with heat issue while confined. This gives the bees plenty of chance to reinforce any combs that might need it. Comb is actually pretty strong, I have had no problem shaking bees off of TBHs combs the same way you do with langstroth frames. I wouldn't do this with fresh honey comb fully loaded with honey, but on brood combs or ANY aged combs (brood or heavy honey) its perfectly safe so long as you handle the comb properly (meaning plumb). The heaviest part of my hives is the hive itself, not the colony inside, so once I have harvested the honey I am perfectly able to heft the hive with my hands. I don't suggest everyone can do that and its much easier if you have a helping hand and can carry the hives end-to-end. Put the hive in a truck bed and drive carfully. That doesn't mean 5 miles an hour it just means pay attention to traffic, and the road conditions so you aren't slamming on the breaks or swerving to avoid an obstacle or deep pothole. The bees will be fine.

When you get to the destination, place the hive where you are going to put it, try to level it the same as it was before, and then release the bees. The next day come back in the morning and do an inspection to check for any broken combs. Its not so drastic at night, but when summer afternoon temps rise, a broken comb can interfere with ventilation. I lost one hive to a move, but it wasn't strictly because of the move, it was just a contributing factor and the final straw in this particular hive's demise.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

jalal, it's Scot that is going commercial, not me, at least not for a long time. I would just like about 20 hives within the next 2 years. (probably Langstroth hives) Full time beekeeping would be great, but I don't have the experience to consider it anytime soon. Maybe if I can make 20-50 hives profitable, I would consider it. I think the problem with doing top-bar as comercial is your breaking completely new ground. I don't know of anyone in the states doing it for significant profit. Maybe some of the big time and former big time beekeepers on this board can give some good advise for what it would take for Top Bars to be profitable.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

There are a few commercial TBH outfits, but I don't think any of them post here. I communicate with 3 of them.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

So how is it going for them?


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Scott can you describe what it would be? twenty tbhs would take up a lot of room. So to get to 1K hives would be 50 yards of twenty tbhs each?

Hawk


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## jalal (Sep 2, 2004)

michael:

i was of course talking about your heart felt words









i simply assumed that you too were going commercial in the near future, my bad


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Robert,
What do you mean describe what it would be? Everything else seems true.

Michael,
Well enough to keep doing it I guess.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

I was just trying to picture a commecial TBH business. I had never before imagined it. I've never seen more than one TBH at a time. Just a new concept. I'll have a paradigm shift here in a couple days and it'll all make sense.

Thanks, 

Hawk


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have far more uneven terrain in combs on DuraComb that are a few years old than I do on my top bar hives.







Most of the foundation I have has ins and outs to it. I keep feeding more bars between the nice straight ones.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Michael,
That's the way to do it, except I try to do it in early spring if I can, or I do it with splits after 1st flow in Feb/March (citrus) and before clover April/May, I get pretty good results.

TBH beekeeping is really no different than langs from an operational standpoint so long as you use a standard design. A hive is a hive, and they all produce honey and produce bees. I raise queens in TBH Nucs, though I haven't started using mini-nucs yet, I haven't had a need to increase my queen production levels yet. But I will when I get there. They'll be TBHs too, just a whole heck of a lot smaller. I think modern mini-mate nucs are mini-TBHs of some sort anyway aren't they?

A hive is a hive, what makes one hive differnet from another is how well you can manage it. TBHs add a level of complexity in one spot, and remove them in other spots. Langs remove some complexity in some areas and add some in other areas. So you see you aren't really gaining anything IN SUM by your choice UNLESS your needs hinge on certain requirements. I like calm bees. TBHs REALLY help with that. I like Natural Comb, TBHs also are more natively ready for natural comb (though LANGS are easily converted). I like not bending over to work my hives and not lifting supers. Langs GIVE you supers so you can work more vertical (which has benefits too).

So you see TBHs and Langs aren't better than one another, they are simply related styles of beekeeping each with its own set of characteristics, challenges, and joys.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

I was thinking about the amount of wood in either a top bar hive or a lang hive. Thinking about this for cost reasons. Since you have a longer lid and bottom in a top bar hive, is there about the same amount of wood in each? If using natural comb in your langs, does anyone have a reasonable guess in cost differences between a 3 Illinois super hive or an equivalent top bar. My guess is that the top bar would cost slightly less but not significant. Or do the cost of frames make a big difference. Anyone run the numbers? Assembly time should be less for top bars, but does the time in comb maintence cancell that out. Perhaps as you say Scott its just a matter of different styles.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Less wood in any frameless system. There is a lot of wood in those frames, and they are expensive to cut.

Might be more wood in TBHs if you use heftly hardware, but a lot less number of pieces and none of it need to be precise machined like langs.


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