# Hive filling up fast, should I...?



## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

Hello folks new here just singed up last night, rather new to beekeeping too.
I have a 16 bar top bar hive that is already just 5 empty bars away from being completly full, and I just installed the bees March 19th. Now if I understood correctly, we always want to keep AT LEAST that last back bar from being used, to keep for us like a safety or buffer zone? Because if the bees attempt to go beyond that, I will really have major trouble trying to work the hive?
Here is what I plan to do, corretect me if this is not a good idea. I soon, in the next couple weeks plan to remove the very front 1 or 2 bars, brush my bees off them and back into the hive, then transport the bars to pops place and install them in his identical top bar hive that is doing rather poorly.
He lives 29 miles away and yes indeed I need be very careful as to not let the combs break off the bars during transit. If they do, it will be such a sad waste. Thanks for your input here folks . LampBurner


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## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

I meant to mention I plan to move everything behind those front bars I remove foward then put empty bars at the back so the hive will still be full of bars. LampBurner


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You need to make a nuc box that works with your bars and drawn comb - then take frames of brood along with the bees to Pop. Or build a second hive to split yours into. Or just keep an eye on it and rob honey as soon as they have some to take. I'm about 75 miles away and have a new to this year KTBH that is in about the same condition - I'm going with option 3.


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## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

David thanks for your reply. Wow I have something to learn here because I thought if I go with your option #1 and if I were to leave my bees on the comb without brushing them off , upon instillation into Pops hive, my bees and his bees would battle it out with casualties on both sides: also if my queen were to happen to be on the comb I remove from my hive and put in his, my hive would then become queenless and there would be an even bigger war inside Pops hive.
I thought and was hopeing that if I installed just comb (with no live bees on it) with un-hatched brood into his hive, his bees would take care of them as their own then as my bees hatched they would just become part of his coloney.
Not doubting you at all Dave, I am new and I have already learned something from you, but that is indeed what I thought anyway. Option 3 appeals to me too. I wish I currently had another hive made or I would go with option 2.


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## Merlinspop (Nov 4, 2010)

A 16 bar hive seems awfully small. High 20s to mid 30s is more the norm. Mine holds 32 bars.


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## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

Yes this is one of those Golden Mean hives from Backyardbeehives.com. We ordered the blueprints from them and built our own from that. They said their Golden Mean hive holds more bees than their regular hive so they overwinter better in it among many other better things about it, so we went with it. This hive is bigger than their regular in width and depth but unfortunatly shorter than the regular, thus meaning less bars; so I now kind of wonder which really would be best hmmm. 
It also is the only top bar hive I have had any experience with too.


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## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

*Re: Ah Ha I have Idea*

:thumbsup:
I think for future hives I make, I will simply make them 25%, 50%, 75% or perhaps even 100% (double the length on them). It shouldn't be anymore difficult to do than makeing them to the specs anyway because the only thing I will be changing is the length and thus needing more bars.
I went to Home Depot just the other day to buy lumber to make 4 more. That lumber could be use to make perhaps 3 instead of 4, two of them 75% longer and then one regular size; or perhaps just two hives double length. I might be going a bit overboard by doubeling it.


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## jonlorusso (Apr 25, 2011)

*Re: Ah Ha I have Idea*

LampBurner, I'm right there with you. I built two GoldenMean hives based on backyardHive plans. This is my first go at beekeeping. I've since built a nuc/trap (10 bars instead of 18) and I'm going to start working on two 28 bar golden means when I get a free weekend.


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## jonlorusso (Apr 25, 2011)

Forgot to ask, did you buy the bars from them? Or did you cut your own? I bought a few from them, and although they are really nicely made, they are also a bit pricey. I'm no woodworker, so I was wondering, if you did make your own, how did you go about that? Just a table saw angled at 55.5 deg?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Lampburner - You do need to make SURE that you don't accidentally take your queen out when moving bars of bees - that would be bad. However, moving brood comb with all of the bees that cling to it between hives is a routine manipulation - it doesn't start fights.


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## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

Jonlorusso
We made our own top bars out of plain white wood 2x4s. We saw absolutly no reason why any kind of wood would not work so long as it'snot pressure treated, and our bars seem to work fine. We did it with a radial arm saw that will cut at angles and a plainer. Pop has all the necessary tools. Hardwood as they sell is not necsssary.,
And even though backyardbeehives sells them in 18 count, for some reason our hives came out to hold only 16. So I figure they sell them in 18 per hive to give you 2 extra bars which would be good. So after you finished building yours did they come out to hold 18bars? If so then we must have sort of screwed up somehow but ok I suppose.
David
That hive of Pops that wasnt doing wellis resault of a late cold snap we had here right about the time we installed our bees. He lost one colony completely and that one was hanging by a thread. We had oredered more but our source delayed one package till the weather improved. When we did get them, his was to replace his colony that died but he put some of those bees in the package in that top bar hive that was weak and barely hanging. When we did, the new bees and the ones already there faught. We think all the newly introduced ones died and equal amount of the already ones there died too. The resault was that it not only lost that portion of that new package but it left that already colony weaker than it was before we poured those bees from the package in there.
I now suppose if someone is going to do such thing, they need to leave the bees they are going to intruduce away from there queen for a few days first, then they will take to a new queen and hopefully the already bees there will accept the new bees too.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Just mixing together bees from different tribes certainly can result in carnage, but when you pull a frame of brood out of a hive the vast majority of bees that are clinging to it are nurse bees, and putting them in another hive doesn't set off a war. If you do have occasion to do some questionable mixing of bees you can smoke them real good as you do it in my experience they (usually) unite pretty peaceably.

It may also depend on how many strange bees you are throwing into a hive at once. If you swap 2 hives locations the foragers that are coming in will march right into the different hive that is sitting where their home was when they left - no problem at all.

Disclaimer - I've only been doing this for 3 years, but I have done a *lot* of splitting and combining - went from one 3 pound package to about 20 hives without buying bees or catching swarms. Certainly not an expert like some of these guys, but done a lot of experimenting. Poor bees.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

I lost part of a hive going only 10 miles away on good paved roads
If I have to move Frames again I plan on doing this
I will make strips of card board about the width of the comb itself too wrap and support it (like the side and bottom pieces of a lang frame)
I will staple the cardboard to the under side of the bar I would hope to think this will hole the comb 
to the bar so it doesn't break loose as the other hive did 
Good luck in your move


Tommyt


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## jonlorusso (Apr 25, 2011)

LampBurner. I ended up with room for approximately 17 bars with a gap left of about 3/4". I'm currently using a spacer to fill this gap at the back of the hive.


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## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

Jonorusso I found out someting today about that. It does hold 18 bars if you remove the false back and all the spacers. With those in, it holds 16 and tight fit too. At least thats how it is with ours anyway. I started construstion on 2 more Golden Mean hives today. I am doubeling the length on them. They are going to hold 32 bars with including spacers and false back. I hope I am not stretching it too far. I know it seemingly would normally take a colony a loooong time to fill it up, but my entent and hope is that I won't have to worry about it for a long time and they hopefully won't swarm and I can still get all the benefit from the hive and even more. It will probibably be next spring before one goes into operation.
David You have done well in production of bees from a 3 lb package. I epcect if I play my cards right, I should do same. However even thought I am happy with the bees I have, I was wanting something else to suppliment or just in addition to the ones I have. I was planning to get a queen of another race and intruduce her into about 2 to 3 lbs of shaken bees of mine and install them into an empty hive next spring. I think I have might have since changed my mind about that in the last couple days and just stick strictly with the bees I have if their numbers keep increasing like the ones I have seem to be doing. Eventually perhaps they will interbreed with other bees and add genetic diversity hopefully.
Tommyt We are working on some kind of padded jig to put drawn out comb + top bar in for transport. Problem is that what we are working on divising will embrace the comb and not allowing room for any bees on the comb without crushing them. This is all in attempt to be able to transport them without the comb breaking off the bar. We hope it works, of course. If we are going to transport any bees that go with that comb too, we would have to go through the trouble of shaking them into another package and then adding them to the lesser colony and hive upon installation of the combs


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## sevenbravo (Sep 30, 2010)

My backyard hive holds 18 bars plus the follower board. I made everything to plans. I have built 6 of them, and like you am making the 7th longer.


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## sevenbravo (Sep 30, 2010)

18 bars plus room to spare in mine.


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## sevenbravo (Sep 30, 2010)

I built a pitched roof too.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have a 16 bar top bar hive that is already just 5 empty bars away from being completly full

I have never built one that was less than four feet long and 33 bars or more.

But of the Backyard Hives, that is their largest...

Time to build a bigger hive and use that one for a nuc.


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## sevenbravo (Sep 30, 2010)

I am in the process of building a KTBH from your plans, Michael. But I adapted it a little to fit the same size top bars that the backyard hive has.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

That should be plenty big.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

My hives are a little over 4 feet long, have over 30 bars and is 18" wide by a foot tall.

Those hives from Backyard are very small. In a good flow in good weather, they'll be packed full of comb and bees in a few weeks.

As it is, you have to manage 4 footers to keep them from swarming. Those 16 bar hives are going to produce swarms mid summer. Keep traps out or be ready to split. Could be a busy July...

Adam


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Lets not forget the Backyard Hive is actually built to promote swarming in the hopes of re-establishing the feral bees. It's about the bees not the honey!



> Our primary focus is on improving bee ecology and beekeeping methods that respect the honeybee. Our hope is that by introducing new hobby beekeepers to the rewards of beekeeping that there will eventually be backyard beekeepers worldwide that will help bring back the feral bee population and improve the genetic diversity of the honeybees. This diversity is critically important to the survival of this most precious natural resource.


http://www.backyardhive.com/Articles_on_Beekeeping/Articles_on_Beekeeping/Our_Mission/


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## ChetPunisher (Jan 8, 2011)

^^^ That's what I was thinking...


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## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

Delta Bay
To promote bees to swarm in town, I am aftaid could promote trouble for both the bees and possibably the owner of the hive the bees swarmed from.
If all my neighbors in the surrounding area love bees, as all us here on this web site, that would be a OK. I already have concern for the survival and well being of my bees if they were to swarm. I am not concerned of something natural killing them but people if they set up a temporary or permanent home somewhere they are not wanted. They could get sprayed with insecticide just from fear alone.
Myself, I wouldn't want bees setting up residance in my roof eve or in my house foundation either, but being a beekeeper of course I wouldn't spray them and neither would any us here. The same can't be said for everyone.
I have heard say that it is now illeagle for pesticide companies to kill honeybees. I don't know if it is true or not. It's a big plus if it is. However it won't stop worried people from doing it.
I am able to legally have even just one bee hive in my back yard in town, I consider it a rare privilage that I don't want to loose. If too many issues and problems and even fears arise from bees swarming, It's a privilage that could be lost, if in town we just let nature totaly run it's course with bees.
LambBurner


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> Delta Bay
> To promote bees to swarm in town, I am aftaid could promote trouble for both the bees and possibably the owner of the hive the bees swarmed from.


I wasn't being criticial and I also agree with your concerns as I think they are very true.
But the Backyard Hives are built for a specific purpose and was bringing attention to this in case anyone was not aware. So for the purpose the hive is built it fits.


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## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

Delta Bay
Yes I did understand what your point was what you stated above about the motives behind the designe of that piticular hive. 
I agree with and the motives of the folks that design and sell the hive plans I purchased, that's a big part of the reason I did purchase from them and that hive. I knew the hive I purchased was designed with the bee in mind and not honey production as I thought nearly all top bar hives are.

However, it did kind of take me by suprise when I learned from you it was designed to promote swarming and I was not happy about that, because I did not know that when I purchased the hive plans. I think that should be made very clear to any prospective buyers of the hive or plans for it. I actually am fine with a hive made with the bee in mind, but just not one that is made to promote swarming. The location of where the beekeeer plans to put that hive is an important factor in should they put that hive there.
Myself, I think might be a ok hive to put out on my Fathers 200 acres of land in the countryside where it would be good for the bee population in general to increase feral bee population. In fact there will be a couple of length modified ones out there next Spring.
It's just that the city might not be an ideal place to put a hive not knowing that it is designed to promote bees to swarm. 
Can you tell me what kind of effect me doubeling the length of this hive is going to have on everthing? Cheers


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Lets not forget the Backyard Hive is actually built to promote swarming in the hopes of re-establishing the feral bees. It's about the bees not the honey!

Except I think that's backwards. You're watering down the feral survivor genetics with package bees from the south genetics by letting your's swarm. I think we need to promote the survivors instead.

Meanwhile a small hive not only promotes swarming but is difficult to maintain and get through the winter as you don't have enough room for adequate stores. Or if you do, and you harvest and there isn't a fall flow, you didn't have enough leeway to make up the difference. In other words I want to harvest without ever going below what I think they need to get through the winter. That's hard to do if the box is only big enough to get through the winter with no surplus room.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> Can you tell me what kind of effect me doubeling the length of this hive is going to have on everthing?


With 32 bars you have the possibilty to harvest honey and still know you are leaving enough for your bees for winter and spring build up. Also you have room for your concern to control swarming with proper management. Without proper management even a hive double the size can be a swarm factory. They just might decide to swarm before they fill a 32 bar hive out.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> Except I think that's backwards. You're watering down the feral survivor genetics with package bees from the south genetics by letting your's swarm. I think we need to promote the survivors instead.


I couldn't agree with you more. It depends whats living in the hive.


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## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

I tend to think they would be a plus to the feral population just from my knolege. First of all they were already rared 4.9 mm when purchased. They are Russian, Carniolan, with a little Italian. However they are extreamly gentle and dosile. That is good for the beekeeper but I am not sure about that being a good trait for the bee if in the wild. I have noticed they are extreamly hard working and even out foraging when its rather cold and even drizzeling rain. That sounds like Buck Fast but there is no Buck Fast in them I am aware of. 
When I first installed them I was under the impression they were not very cold hardy because we lost many resault of installing them during a late cold snap. I have since drawn the conclusion from those that pulled through, they might be at least as cold adapted than nearly any bees based on what I have observed them doing on cool rainy days. We will see how they do this next winter. That will be the real test.


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