# For Those That Are Interested...



## beepro

You ask him a basic hiving question.
How come you don't ask him whether or not these packages are
from the commercial operation or the tf operation? And how mite resistant are the
commercial packages after you hived them? Good luck on your tf journey!


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## johngfoster

beepro said:


> You ask him a basic hiving question.
> How come you don't ask him whether or not these packages are
> from the commercial operation or the tf operation? And how mite resistant are the
> commercial packages after you hived them? Good luck on your tf journey!


I didn't ask him on the video, because I already asked him that question at the previous month's bee club meeting. The answer: commercial TREATED packages from Oroville in CA. They are reportedly Carniolan strain. These bees come reportedly "pretreated". I'm seriously considering re-queening some time this summer after the bees get established in my hive. Still haven't decided who to use for the queen though, so am open to thoughts and ideas on this.


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## beepro

Find the nearest tf beekeeper to acquire some queens.
If you cannot find any then going out of state will do. 
Start with good tf genetics to grow your tf operation since these
packages are not mite resistant to start with. I'm sure
some club members can show you the right direction. Some may not
be so willingly at the meeting if the majority are still treating. So proceed
with caution when asking around as this topic/issue has its sensitive divided group.


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## johngfoster

Thanks, Beepro. I'll keep looking. So far, there is another beekeeper about 4-5 miles away who does TF beekeeping, but they lost their hives over the winter to mice and are on the lookout for a swarm (as am I). There is another beek about 20 miles away, but he has not much experience with TF beekeeping yet. That's all that I'm aware of at the moment. Considering some stock from CO or WA, but have a bit of time to keep looking before then. Thanks.


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## Bee Tamer

Last year I purchased 4 packages with the plan of requeening with TF queens. I requeened 3 and the fourth I kept an eye on because they were doing so well. By mid August they were in decline and by September I had written them off.
I am sharing this experience because you don't want to wait until they are in decline to requeen. The packages I requeened survived the winter and are in three deeps with 2 medium supers.


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## Michael Bush

If I were going to spray them (and I wouldn't) your mixture is great. But what you said you made (1 lb of sugar to 1 gallon of water), for future reference, is actually 1 part sugar to 8 parts water or 1:8. A gallon of water is 8 pounds...


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## johngfoster

Michael Bush said:


> If I were going to spray them (and I wouldn't) your mixture is great. But what you said you made (1 lb of sugar to 1 gallon of water), for future reference, is actually 1 part sugar to 8 parts water or 1:8. A gallon of water is 8 pounds...


Thanks for the insight. For feeding them at this point, when first hiving them, what ratio is recommended then? I thought I've read somewhere that it was supposed to be 1 lbs sugar to 1 gal. water. Learning as I go.


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## JRG13

1:1 is by weight, so 1lb sugar to 1lb water. The easiest way, is 25lbs sugar into a 5 gallon bucket, then fill to 5 gallons, it's just about the right ratio w/o having to measure anything.


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## Michael Bush

>what ratio is recommended then? 

I'd feed 5:3, but 1:1 is typical. It won't keep nearly as long as 5:3 does...


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## johngfoster

Thanks. That actually makes much more sense measuring both by weight. Not sure where I got the idea of mixing weight and volume for measurements. 

ETA: I corrected the video to more accurately describe the 1:1 ratio by weight. Thanks again.


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## FlowerPlanter

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/wha...fference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/

These are not treatment free bees, I would not treat them as such. Hopefully requeening will help but you need to monitor your mites. Letting your bees die does not help you or your bees, it will just creates a "mite bomb" that may harm other's hives and any feral bees you may have in your local area.


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## johngfoster

A brief introduction video is up now.


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## Oldtimer

lovely scenic place you live, you did a pretty good job for first ever attempt, enjoyed the video.


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## beepro

Missing some wild mustard in the fields for an early
Spring build up. Thought those are the computer images.


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## AvatarDad

John, congratulations and good luck on your journey. It is an exciting time. That is some terrific scenery in your intro video, btw. Our mountains are covered by trees, not snow. 

I have not made a TF vow necessarily, but am going to be at least minimalist this first year, and I'm studying all I can about it. I'm hoping to avoid treatment, but want to keep the bees alive as my first priority. We'll see how it goes... I may have empty boxes by January, or I may design a top bar OAV device.

To the recipe wonks on the site, I do have to point out that a cup of sugar weighs 7.1 ounces, and a cup of water weighs 8 ounces. (yes, I bake. A lot. Flour is 4.25 - 4.75 oz/cup, if anyone is interested, depending on how sifted it is). Whether you do 1:1 by weight or by volume, the mixture you get is going to be functionally identical (I'm not sure any of us could tell 7.1:8 from 8:8 just by looking, I mean). If you don't have a kitchen scale, 1:1 by volume is close enough for the bees; throw in a little extra sugar if you want.


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## johngfoster

Thanks. I think my problem with the recipe was mixing weights and volumes. 1:1 by volume will be about the same as 1:1 by weight. However, my mistake was to measure weight with the sugar and volume with the water. That gives a very different mix. I have since corrected that.


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## johngfoster

My first hive inspection is up:






Constructive criticism is welcome.


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## squarepeg

very nice video john.

you are doing really well with how you are handling the frames.

when i put mine back in i usually slide the frame stops along side each other so i don't have to worry about pushing them together and squishing bees between them. the bees that are on those stops will get out of the way when you slide them, much like they do when you put your inner cover back on.

that way when you finish looking at the last frame and put it back in all the frames are already touching each other, and then you can use your hive tool to push all nine frames as a unit back over to make room to put the first one back in. this makes it a lot easier especially once your hive gets really crowded with bees they aren't easily able move out from in between those stops.

i think you may be using more smoke than is necessary. in fact, with such a small colony i'm pretty sure you could inspect them without using any smoke. i prefer to use nitrile gloves and no smoke until the colonies get big enough and have a higher percentage of older more defensive bees. even then, just a few puffs before going into the hive and waiting a couple of minutes is about all it takes. that fanning and buzzing you saw and heard means too much smoke.

unless you have really good eyesight seeing translucent eggs on that yellow foundation with new comb is almost impossible, especially looking through a veil. you'll have to tilt the frame to get the sunlight coming in at just the right angle from behind you and over your shoulder. they will be in the lower part of the frame toward the bottom.

thanks for sharing the video, you have a beautiful place to keep your bees.


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## johngfoster

Thanks, SP. We are surely blessed to live where we do. I appreciate the suggestions too, particularly with regard to the smoke. I'll try to incorporate them in my future habits.

About the eggs: I didn't see any comb drawn out on the lower parts of the foundation yet. It was only 5 days since I hived the bees. I was surprised though to find that they were filling the cells they had drawn out already. A quick taste test showed it tasted more like sugar water than honey though. Almost all the cells that were drawn out seemed to be filled with liquid, so I imagine as these were all near the top of the frame, the bees would need to draw the frame out a bit more before the queen started laying eggs in them. How long does it usually take a queen to start laying eggs after she is hived in a virgin hive?

I tried sliding the frames back in touching the uprights against the next frame, but with the grooves and slots in these Mann Lake PF100s the bees would get into them still, and I would end up trapping the bees. I'll try again though and see if I can improve my technique.

Thanks again for the input. It's almost like having a world of mentors to guide one through the first few steps.


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## squarepeg

i've never hived a package before john so i'm not really sure about how long it should be before one expects to see eggs. when i saw how much comb there was on those middle frames i would have thought there should already be eggs just below the liquid feed. perhaps it takes a queen a little time after being caged to start laying, maybe those with experience with it will chime in. i didn't notice much pollen (beebread) in the shots, and that's something else you should be seeing more of by your next inspection. the other thing that was kind of weird was that half frame or so of bees hanging out on the side wall, i'm not sure why they weren't busy working in the area around what will become the broodnest. are these bees that came from standard cell size comb that you are putting onto small cell foundation? looking forward to hearing what you see in a week or so.


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## johngfoster

Yes, I believe they came from standard 5.4mm cell size. Conventional bee raising practices from a Californian apiary in Oroville. Supposed to be Carniolan stock. The queen looks dark, almost a rusty brown. The bees look yellow/black, although there are a few bees that look almost completely black. Like other new beekeepers posting here, I'm considering requeening with survivor genetics, but again, am not plugged into the beekeeping community deeply enough to know of any TF beeks around here. And thus am also trying to find a source of TF queens that would do well in our climate (5b on USDA plant hardiness zone map).


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## beepro

How long does it usually take a queen to start laying eggs after she is hived in a virgin hive?

I would say somewhere between 3 to 5 days.
They need to feed her plenty of RJ before she is 
fat enough to begin laying after the release. 
The daughters mated to the local feral drones should give
you some tf stocks if they are the resistant bees.


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## johngfoster

I think she is a mated queen, but I'm not sure about that. How do you tell (other than checking for eggs)?


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## squarepeg

again this is something i don't have experience with so hopefully someone who does will chime in, but can there be an issue with putting a queen reared on larger cell comb directly onto small cell founation? (in terms of having trouble getting her butt down into the cells to deposit the eggs)

my understanding is that with packages the workers are shook from other colonies and are not daughters of the caged queen that comes with them. you'll have to wait a few weeks to see what that queens daughters look like.

an unmated queen will still lay eggs but they will be infertile and produce drones. the only way to tell is after the brood is capped, with drone brood the cappings are domed up and look like coco puffs.


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## beepro

johngfoster said:


> How do you tell (other than checking for eggs)?


This season with plenty of rains and an extended forage season
the queens I grafted look kindly upon me. The bee fairy has been kind to me 
this year. I have good return rate! For my learning purposes I have documented
my observation and with plenty of bee pics too.
The unmated (virgin) queen tends to be runny on the comb when disturbed.
Sometime the mated queen will do that too but once settled down she will be
calm again. The virgin will not pay any interest in the empty cell whereas a
mated queen will be snooping her head in the cell looking to deposit her egg.
Another way to tell a virgin from a mated queen is how the worker bees behave
toward her. A virgin, with shorter abdomen, will be ignored by the workers while a mated queen with
an extended abdomen will have the workers form a near perfect circle around her everywhere she goes. 
They pay extra attention to her and feed and groom her often to keep her pretty and plump. 


Almost perfect circle, extended abdomen:


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## johngfoster

Next video is up:


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## Michael Bush

>...again this is something i don't have experience with so hopefully someone who does will chime in, but can there be an issue with putting a queen reared on larger cell comb directly onto small cell founation? (in terms of having trouble getting her butt down into the cells to deposit the eggs)

Not a problem.


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## beepro

I have large well fed queens on small cell foundation.
After mating she was a bit confused at first. Then over the
weeks she somehow figured it out how to lay in these tiny cells.
So not an issue that I found out.


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## johngfoster

Thanks for the input. That is reassuring to know the queens will do fine on the small cell.

1. Why do my bees seem to make so much burr comb? Is this normal? Am I doing something wrong?

2. Was that a true queen cell? Should I have removed it after discovering my queen was still there and obviously laying, as evidenced by the brood?


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## johngfoster

ETA: dupe.


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## beepro

dups. Got that wait 30 secs error message again.


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## beepro

Some breed of bees like the Italians and Russians will
make some readily available queen cups. These are not the
cells because no egg or larva deposit in them yet. If you look inside
at an angle with a small LED flashlight you will see that these are
only the empty cups. After the queen laid an egg inside one of these
cups then it could turn into a supersedure cell later on. If the bees
choose to tear it down then the queen will be alive for another year.
But supersedure can trigger at anytime even in the late of winter. So changes
are that these are not the true queen cell. Keep an eye on them to see if they
will be cap in a week or so. Don't wait for 2 weeks to inspect that the new virgin will emerge
killing the old queen.
Now is the early Spring time in your area. It is also the time to give them some empty frames
to draw them out. They will make the new white or light brown wax on the exiting frames if no other place for them to draw. So give them some frames to work on. That means your hives are growing now. Make sure to feed them some if they are not bringing in something. Super them up on a flow early on. Also check for sign of a mite infestation in the early Spring time.


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## johngfoster

Thanks for that, Beepro. I'm planning to check on my bees once a week for a while at least, so should be back in the hive tomorrow. I'll look to see what it looks like this time. I'm still feeding them 1:1 sugar syrup, and they have been drawing out the Mann Lake PF100s I've given them. As of 6 days ago, there were still 2 frames completely undrawn, and one that they were just starting on one side. None of the frames were completely drawn out yet, so I'll see what progress they have made tomorrow.


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## Michael Bush

>Should I have removed it after discovering my queen was still there and obviously laying, as evidenced by the brood?

Unless I have some extenuating circumstances like genetics I want to eradicate from my breeding, I NEVER remove a queen cell.


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## squarepeg

seeing capped brood in your last inspection means that there would have been eggs present a week prior, but they were probably too hard to see on the new comb.

obviously the queen is not having any difficulty laying in the smaller cells, that's awesome. you may be the first one to report (in a while anyway) introducing standard package bees onto the plastic small cell foundation.

the burr comb looks like drone size and all colonies will make that wherever they can, typically in the gaps between the boxes. but right now it's easier for them to put it on the undrawn foundation. i have had them do exactly the same thing on 'standard' size foundation, so i don't think it's just because you've got small cell foundation.

looks like your colony is coming right along john, way to go!


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## beepro

I removed the dinky cells because they're just a 
waste of hive resources. Never get them to lay better than a
well fed queen.


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## johngfoster

Got into the hive again today. Found another queen cup looking cell. Left it. A bit of burr comb, which I removed again, but not nearly as much as last time. Most of the burr comb seems to contain nectar or pollen, at least to my eyes looking through the netting of my bee suit. Lots of capped brood, and a tiny bit of capped honey in the corners. Had better luck keeping my smoker lit this time.  The bees still have a number of frames to draw out, so don't think they're ready for another box yet, but I expect once this brood starts hatching, to see their numbers grow more quickly, and also their need for more space. They hadn't taken as much sugar syrup--only about half a container, so I left it on the hive again. However, if they haven't taken much more of it by next week, then I'll probably remove it. Should have the new video up in the next day or two.

My plan is once they need another deep, to given them foundationless frames. I'll need to bring up some of the plastic frames into the new box, and place some of the foundationless frames in their spaces in the old box. I'm hoping by then the new generation of bees raised on the small cell foundation will be regressed and draw out small cells on the FL frames. We'll see how that goes.


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## Fusion_power

I have colonies that have been on small cell for 11 years but when I gave them foundationless frames to draw, they made cells at 5.3. I figure it is what the bees want so I don't change it. I have other colonies that are very happy to draw cells in the 5.0 to 5.1 range but none that consistently draw 4.9 or smaller.


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## sakhoney

John - just a thought - when you cut off the burr comb - through it back in the hive. I do this myself. The bees will recycle the comb and use the wax on your new frames.


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## Oldtimer

Fusion_power said:


> I have colonies that have been on small cell for 11 years but when I gave them foundationless frames to draw, they made cells at 5.3. I figure it is what the bees want so I don't change it. I have other colonies that are very happy to draw cells in the 5.0 to 5.1 range but none that consistently draw 4.9 or smaller.


Out of curiosity FP, do those hives with the larger cells have any worse survival than the others?


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## Fusion_power

No difference Oldtimer. I've got a few colonies on 5.4 combs and they survive just fine. The only issue I've seen recently with mite symptoms is a colony headed by a queen I got from BeeWeaver. I off'd her head this spring because I won't put up with a colony that stings to excess and is mite susceptible. Interestingly, two other queens from BeeWeaver have done well with one of them a star performer. Both are a bit more aggressive than my line, but can easily be worked without a veil.


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## johngfoster

I managed to get the next video/inspection up a bit earlier this week. Again, any constructive criticisim is welcome. I'm here to learn.


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## Brad Bee

IMO, if you'll take some of that burr comb, melt it and paint it on those frames in the undrawn spots, they'll quit making the burr comb.

I know nothing about your area. It sure is beautiful country in your video. I have never had bees here draw comb in that way. Mine always start in the middles of the frames and work their way out, yours appear to have started on one end. I suspect it's due to sun angle. Are yours drawing more comb on the south side of the box?


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## johngfoster

No Brad. The entrance of the hive faces South. The comb is on the North side of the frames. There is also just a bit more comb on the East end of the hive than the West. It makes me wonder if the paint job makes the hive too warm due to the darker coloration, and they have been building in the cooler parts of the hive. However, it has only gotten up into the high 70s here lately on nice days, so not very hot yet. Night time temps are still in the 40s. So this theory probably isn't correct either. 

My plan for the wax is indeed to melt it down, but I haven't decided exactly what to do with it yet. One thought I had was to pour it into the gaps of the frame edges to fill them up, thus eliminating the spaces for bees to get trapped in. I'll need a bit more wax to do that than I've been able to collect so far though.


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## howlin

hi,
thanks for sharing, hope you don't mind if i jump out with a thought i had.

i was trying to figure out what you could do to close those holes in the side bars of the plastic frames... i was thinking of caulking or some such thing, but that would be a horrible mess unless you took it and let it dry somewhere, and is it toxic, etc,

i noticed how you keep taking burr comb out, maybe just shove that in the spaces as you take it off, i realize this would in no way be a fast fix, lol, but, any bit is helping i guess.

h.

*edit - or will that mold and rot etc.? what size is the burr comb? measure it?


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## johngfoster

Finally getting last week's hive inspection video posted. Here it is:






Howlin: I like your idea of filling the frame cavities with wax. However, this will probably need to be done in the off season (winter) if I can rotate these frames out and have them draw out some new ones. I'd like to melt the wax and drizzle it into the gaps, but again, that can't be done now while I'm inspecting the hive. But I like the idea. Thanks for your input.


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## howlin

thanks for the shout out. I also thought about melted/poured.. but that's a big operation, i feel that if you just smoosh it into the holes right where you are removing it from.. not the whole thing at once, but "every little bit helps.." i still don't know if it would cause mold or not. i've been waiting for a vid from you though. the comb mine drew (http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?312730-Today-in-the-Apiary&p=1429345#post1429345) was not as white... anyone?
about to watch vid. thanks for sharing your experience. 
h.

and it would only need to be the top part of the end bars you would need to fill.


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## johngfoster

Just finished editing the vide from last Wed. Like a bonehead, I lost the footage from the first part of the inspection. And to top it off, the camera battery died before I finished the inspection, so I missed that as well.

One thing I noticed, was that they didn't seem to have much more comb drawn out. The central brood comb that looks emerged, does not seem to have any new larvae in it, as far as I can tell, so am wondering what's going on with that? Still the same number of empty frames on the outsides of the hive. They had also finished off the sugar syrup, which I suspect was due to the rainy weather and poor flying conditions we have recently had. I gave them another tub of sugar syrup after the inspection, and checked on them again yesterday. They had hardly used any of it, but our weather has also been better and the raspberries are starting to flower now. I also noticed more bees fanning at the entrance when I checked on them yesterday, and the hive felt quite hot, with that darker pain (camo). I propped up the front end of the telescoping cover in the hopes of giving the hive more ventilation. We'll see how that works. Anyway, here's the video (it's much shorter this time):


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## johngfoster

These bees don't seem to be building up as fast as I expected. Am I expecting too much, or is this due to them being "Carniolan", or is it more due to my local weather, or due to me not feeding them enough? Or is it my imagination?


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## johngfoster

The build-up appears to be picking up again, and I suspect it was just due to the weather (cold and rainy). Turns out they didn't take much more sugar syrup. Here is last week's inspection:






I really do appreciate the constructive comments I've received here in this thread. My mentor has yet to come out to my hive with me, and has no intentional experience with treatment-free beekeeping, so your comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated.


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## Fusion_power

The reason the smoker won't stay lit is because you are using the wrong fuel and lighting it at the top instead of at the bottom of the fuel.

The bees are building up fairly fast, within 10 days, will have double the population and will be able to take a lot more syrup.

The burr comb on top of the frames exemplifies one reason I am getting rid of plastic frames. The end bar lugs are about 7/16 inch thick. This leaves less than a bee space on top of the frames next to the inner cover.

Go back in them in about 7 days and move one of the frames that is partially drawn but has no brood over to the edge where they are not currently working. This will get them to draw the full box of frames faster.

Check the feed about every 2 or 3 days, they will take it faster as the colony grows.

I can't tell for sure what color the boxes are painted, but it is dark enough to absorb too much heat. A simple trick is to paint one side of the hive white and the other side a dark color. In summer, put the white side facing the sun. In winter, flip it around so the dark side faces the sun and absorbs heat.


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## johngfoster

Thanks, Dar. Those are really helpful suggestions. I checked them again yesterday (this video was from 8 days ago), and they had barely taken any more syrup, so I took it off. They had built up quite a bit more comb, almost completely drawing out 3 or more frames. They still haven't touched to last 2 frames on the R though, so I think I'll swap a few of the full frames over there to encourage them to draw them out. I'll probably have to put a new deep on top in the next week or two if they draw those out. I think I may spray some lighter Krylon on the West side in an effort to lighten up the color some.


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## howlin

will drone fit in a 4.9? maybe they want the 1/3 ratio and are trying to find a place for drone?
h.


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## howlin

maybe micheal bush could input on if drone will do in a 4.9? i personally with all of my inexperience would throw a foundationless frame in and once drawn out in drone comb as i think will happen, move it to the outside either in 1 or 10 position in a 10 frame and that will be that?
h.


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## johngfoster

The bees continue to build their population up, but for about two weeks have not taken much syrup, and have drawn out most of the frames. Would you still provide feed as long as they are drawing comb and building up, even if they are not taking much?


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## johngfoster

Got this last Wednesday's inspection up. Looks like a bear tried to get my hive.


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## Fusion_power

If you put beehives in with livestock, put an electric fence around the beehives.

I've never seen a bear attack that left a hive intact. I think this is just horses trying to figure out what the strange box is doing in their pasture.

A tip for the smoker, get it burning and then put a small handful of green grass on top. This will cool down the smoke and increase the smoke volume.

Ants can cause major problems with bees. It is usually best to do something about them. In this case, they may have been attracted to spilled syrup from the feeder.

The screened bottom board is letting in too much light. Close the bottom if you want the combs to be drawn all the way to the bottom.


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## johngfoster

Just talked with a neighbor this am who said another neighbor had their beehive totally destroyed a few days ago by a bear. They think it was a grizly. It was a sow with a collar on, so they have been tracking her in our area. They are in the area. I wouldn't think the horses would scratch the top of the hive so much if they had been the guilty party. But I'm new to this, so I could well be wrong here. The horses haven't bothered the hive again since I set it back up.


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## johngfoster

I showed the pics of my hive to another beekeeper in my area, and his comment was "that looks a lot like the marks my horses make on unattended vehicles in my fields". Apparently, they scrape them with their teeth and chew on them. So, once again, Dar seems to be right. Thanks.


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## johngfoster

I have a few more episodes up on my YouTube channel now. I don't think I will cross-post them here anymore, as it seems there is not much more discussion here, and those that are interested can just subscribe to my channel to be notified of any new videos/updates. I really appreciate all the help I have gotten here in this thread so far. If I have any further specific questions, I'll probably just start a new thread to discuss that question if I don't find the answer with a search first. Thanks again.


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## Fusion_power

There is not quite enough nectar coming in to support both brood rearing and comb drawing. If you want the combs drawn faster, they really need about a gallon of 1:1 syrup given over 10 days.

The "large bee" you saw is a drone, there should be lots of them in the hive when it is healthy and growing in spring.

One tip regarding queens, always hold frames above the hive while examining them. If the queen falls off a frame she will land back in the hive. Also, try to hold the frame so it hangs in normal position and rotate it that way to examine the other side. This will eventually save a queen for you.

Another tip for the smoker, use 3 or 4 puffs of smoke across the top when opening the colony, then remove one or two frames and as you do so, watch closely for bees looking up at you from between the frames. When there are several dozen looking up, apply one or two more puffs of smoke to move them back down into the hive. Commercial beekeepers will use less smoke, but for your purposes, it is more important to keep the bees under significant control. Examining all 10 frames should take about a dozen puffs of smoke. This is not very important during a nectar flow, but when the nectar stops, the bees will be much more likely to sting. Watching for the "heads up and eyes looking at you" behavior will help manage them when conditions are not perfect.


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