# Requeened-not accepted again- help!



## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

Hello Bee forum,

I am getting really frustrated and need some words of wisdom. 

I requeened for the 2nd time this year on my first hive and I am pretty sure she was not accepted on inspection today. I had requeened on Friday, had killed (the previous queen because she was laying drones) and removed one queen cell they were starting.

Today I checked and the queen was not in the cage, they ate through the candy very quickly to release her but I have a feeling that they killed her because I found 3 queen cells today and they were very defensive and loud. I guess I should do a more thorough inspection tomorrow and see if she is there for sure or not, I did not fully inspect today because I am allergic (getting bee venom shots, now monthly) and they already stung me once today so I try to not push them. It is difficult for me to see eggs, today I saw a lot of larvae.

My question is, should I have left in the cork for a few days instead of immediately removing it? I did not even puncture the candy cork. I do not know for sure either that they killed her but I have a feeling she is not there.

I have been feeding them because I read to do so. They just seem overall unhappy and there are a lot of drones.

Any advice on how to requeen more effectively, it is getting expensive and I feel really bad for my bees who seem very stressed. I have been buying italian queens and my bees are italian.

Thanks so much.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

If there are already queen cells with larva or capped they will kill a new queen virtually every time. If you are allergic then it's going to be difficult to go through and cut all the existing cells but it's the only way in order to introduce a mated queen. The remedy is to let them use the cells the bees have built themselves or buy cells from a queen supplier. The bees will usually let an introduced cell emerge. We requeen everything with ripe cells and rarely have problems of acceptance.


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## Rob S (Nov 8, 2005)

I think you are fortunate to have supesedure cells. I would let them rear their own queen. She will out perform the mail order queen. The fattest supersedure cell will likely be your best queen. Either do nothing and let the bees sort out the new queen or split those queen cells into separate nucs. Likely too late in the year for a split though. Maybe just relax and take it easy. 

rs


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

hello,yep they like to requeen by there self...there is already a queen in there if you see new eggs...i don't buy queens unless i want to change breeds


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## BeeAware (Mar 24, 2007)

A more sure way of re-queening is to start the new queen in a nuc and let her lay in it. Then remove the old queen, wait 24 hours and introduce the nuc (with the new queen and her brood) to the old hive. I rarely lose a queen when introduced in this way.


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

Thanks for all of your comments. I had let them requeen themselves prior but that queen ended up just laying drones so I thought she was poorly mated and makes me hesistant to let them requeen themselves again. I have not seen any capped queen cells, only the beginning of them.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

If all they had was a drone-laying-queen, then they may not have viable female larva to raise a queen from. But that won't always stop them from growing queen cells - though it's quite bizarre to see a drone emerge from a queen cell, it happens.

Do you have any way to provide this queenless hive with a frame of viable eggs?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The past two seasons I've continuously raised small batches of queen cells so that I always have a few ripe cells available to use whenever something like this happens, and it usually does. Having ripe queen cells always available to place in a colony that has unexpectedly lost its queen has saved me an incredible amount of queenless trouble. It hasn't always been 100% successful, but I'd rate it at 90% or better.


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

That would be very odd to have a drone in a queen cell!

This is my only hive so I do not have any extra frames of eggs I can use.

Also I was wondering if I should freeze a frame of capped drone cells to get rid of them - but do I then just place it back into the hive or do I need to clean it up or replace it? 

Thanks!


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

If you have queen cells, maybe the queen you introduced layed a few eggs. I had this problem this year due to the rough spring. The new queen would lay some eggs and then they would kill her and start a new queen cell.

Rule of thumb, never go through a hive until the 12day mark after requeening.

I think it was buzzybee who suggested to put a shim around the inner cover and then place the queen cage on the top of the frames. Then on day 4 you can check if the queen had been released with out disturbing the hive. Thought it to be a good idea.


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

honeyshack said:


> Rule of thumb, never go through a hive until the 12day mark after requeening.


Thanks for the info.

Does this mean I should not fully check tomorrow to see if my queen actually is there? 

I am really worried to wait and prehaps then get a laying worker or swarm cells (don't know if this is even probable, but I worry about them so much) 

I feel like I should requeen as soon as possible if there is no queen but I might run into the same issues all over again!

I feel like I cannot do the natural queen option because I am in an urban setting and there are not as many drones around, just my thoughts...

Thank you very much!


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

You have what, 21 days for the queen to hatch... so give it time. They need time to get adjusted to the new queen. Give it a couple of days and listen for the sound from outside the hive, see if they quieten down.
Time is on your side here


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

But I am really worried about them being able to survive the winter, I feel like time is not on my side. :scratch:


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## CentralPAguy (Feb 8, 2009)

KLY,

I really feel for you. I am trying to understand your time line on when you did what from the point that you had a dronelayer queen till now.

When did you actually install the caged queen. I am thinking that they ate thru the candy that she just might be down there. It would take her a couple of days to plump up before she starts laying eggs, but too me, they are too hard to find -- It takes another 3 days for the eggs to hatch to larvae -- Has she been in there long enough for that to happen?

With you being in New York, you don't have the time for this hive to raise their own queen as she wouldn't start laying 30 days after the queen cell was built. Then you run the risk of an unmated queen.

If you can protect yourself enough from being stung, I would be in your only hive tomorrow and I would look for her. I would imagine that your worker bees are aging since the previous queen was a drone layer. Do you know when the last time that you saw worker brood as it would give you an idea on how long these bees will be around? Is your population of worker bees dropping in your hive?

I would need to ask the more experienced on this forum whether your aged bees would be able to take care of the brood if you purchased yourself another queen and she was accepted. I am thinking that it would take another 7 days to 10 days before she started laying and then another 21 days for the brood to hatch. That is along time in a bee's life.


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

CentralPAguy said:


> KLY,
> 
> I really feel for you. I am trying to understand your time line on when you did what from the point that you had a dronelayer queen till now.
> 
> ...


I installed the queen cage on Friday, maybe that is not enough time for her to start laying then. I am not sure when the last time I saw worker brood was...it seems to have been all/mostly drones for some time. I think my workers seem to be overrun by drones now but not exactly sure on percentage. I think I will suit up again tomorrow and look for the queen and then order another if I do not see any signs of her. Should they still seem so defensive if she is there? I appreciate the comments, it really helps. It is easy to feel lost when things keep going so badly. I just want them to survive. Thank you.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

that is a long time in a bee's life. However if goes through the hive KLY goes through the hive to soon, they will ball the queen if she is in there. I do not know when you start your prep for winter. Here, in manitoba, we start the first half of september and wrap no later than halloween. So at this point, any hive that is in trouble in any way gets torn down, IMO. I want a strong hive to enter the winter. The eggs layed now and in the past two weeks or so and the eggs laid until the queen shuts down are the bees that will survive our winter.

If KLY has a queen and goes in to soon, all the work done will be lost. If this queen does not take, introducing another one will be tough. So in 12 days from introducing this queen, if there are eggs, knock down all queen cells. Go through the hive inch by inch and find any and all that look like cells and knock them down. If there are no eggs, either introduce a new queen, or start fresh next spring. In order to know this you need to tell us your time frame for fall work on the hive, and when your hive goes into winter.

One advantage to this is you would not have to worry about mites or mite treaments and your comb will have little or no residue for next year. If one hive is all you have, this might be your best recourse if this queen failed

Remember fall introduction of queens is sometimes iffy, and if your weather has been as tomulchous as ours, it has been hard on queens...so do not sweat it, take it as a learning experience. If you keep an note book on bees, mark in the time frame for checking on queens after introduction, and learn from it.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

KLY said:


> I installed the queen cage on Friday, maybe that is not enough time for her to start laying then. I am not sure when the last time I saw worker brood was...it seems to have been all/mostly drones for some time. I think my workers seem to be overrun by drones now but not exactly sure on percentage. I think I will suit up again tomorrow and look for the queen and then order another if I do not see any signs of her. Should they still seem so defensive if she is there? I appreciate the comments, it really helps. It is easy to feel lost when things keep going so badly. I just want them to survive. Thank you.


Okay here is an important thing to note when keeping livestock...AND yes bees are livestock...
...if you have live stock you WILL have dead stock...
take not of this...here is another one
...sometime livestock look for ways to die...sometimes those ways surprise you...take it as a learning experience for next year...

If your hive is over run with drones, and you have no other hive to combine it with, it more than likely will not make the winter with a good cluster...since the bees kick the drones out when you do your fall prep. Before you buy another queen, take a hard look and assess the situation
1 queen...$20.00 or there abouts...here 26.00
then feed
then any treatments
any above 50% will survive...
cost to buy a nuc next spring?
advantage to doing this...you extract all your honey, sell it and set aside the $ from the honey you got from the brood chambers to get a nuc.


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

honeyshack said:


> that is a long time in a bee's life. However if goes through the hive KLY goes through the hive to soon, they will ball the queen if she is in there. I do not know when you start your prep for winter. Here, in manitoba, we start the first half of september and wrap no later than halloween. So at this point, any hive that is in trouble in any way gets torn down, IMO. I want a strong hive to enter the winter. The eggs layed now and in the past two weeks or so and the eggs laid until the queen shuts down are the bees that will survive our winter.
> 
> If KLY has a queen and goes in to soon, all the work done will be lost. If this queen does not take, introducing another one will be tough. So in 12 days from introducing this queen, if there are eggs, knock down all queen cells. Go through the hive inch by inch and find any and all that look like cells and knock them down. If there are no eggs, either introduce a new queen, or start fresh next spring. In order to know this you need to tell us your time frame for fall work on the hive, and when your hive goes into winter.
> 
> ...


I should not have opened the hive today, I thought needed to puncture the candy cork, but I should have left them alone for 12 days, correct? I guess live and learn... 

Thanks for the comments!


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

honeyshack said:


> Okay here is an important thing to note when keeping livestock...AND yes bees are livestock...
> ...if you have live stock you WILL have dead stock...
> take not of this...here is another one
> ...sometime livestock look for ways to die...sometimes those ways surprise you...take it as a learning experience for next year...
> ...


Good points, something to consider.


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## CentralPAguy (Feb 8, 2009)

KLY,

You probably won't see larvae yet. To me eggs are hard to see. The queen if she is there has probably plumped up and should be easy to find -- I am thinking that your population of actual bees has dropped which actually makes it easier to find the queen.

I believe that what Honeyshack says is true that sometimes there is a point in time when you chalk it up to experience. 

You probably have your bees in a "pet" column and not "livestock" column, which explains the need to save your bees. I did the same last year and took a very weak hive that experienced chalkbrood into the winter and was proud that it came thru, but I fed it 7 frames of Honey and 10 pounds of sugar. It never prospered in this spring as it continued to have chalkbrood issues. Finally, I pinched the queen and got myself a new queen and my experience learned was to never do that again as I moved my girls from the "pet" column to the "livestock" column.

You may not be successful with this batch of bees this year; other than you got experience which is only obtained by living and trying. I am thinking that you may not have much honey to get a cluster thru the winter. If she is not in your hive, then you may want to consider harvesting all the honey for your personal enjoyment knowing that it was made by your girls.

Next year, please consider getting yourself a second hive so that you have two hives running. If one goes weak, then you can always use the second hive to bring the weak hive arround.

I am going to keep my fingers crossed for you that your queen is there and has started laying eggs at the minimum. Remember to smoke your bees in order to reduce the possibility of being stung and avoid an allergic reaction.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

if you introduced the queen on friday
today or tomorrow would be the day to check the cage with minimal disturbance then ...no pulling out frames...get in get out...close the hive and count to day 12...then a thorough inspection

I like Bizzy's idea on shim up the inner cover with wood all around. place the queen cage on the top of the frames. Then on day 4 you do not have to disturb the hive to see if the queen got out..just a thought and plan to try it next year with my formic rings...will work as shims


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

CentralPAguy said:


> KLY,
> 
> I am going to keep my fingers crossed for you that your queen is there and has started laying eggs at the minimum. Remember to smoke your bees in order to reduce the possibility of being stung and avoid an allergic reaction.


agreed


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## CentralPAguy (Feb 8, 2009)

KLY,

Wht I requeen, I open the hive in three days to make sure that the girls got her out.


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## CentralPAguy (Feb 8, 2009)

But I usually don't start looking for her for another week after she has been let out as I am looking for larvae. I don't know if I have lost queens for bees balling her up by looking deep into the hive at that time.

But I did see my bees attack my new queen as I let her out on the 4th day.

I also read that some of the queen breeders sell their queens too young where the queen's pherome is not at full strength. 

Do you buy your queen's locally or thru the mail?


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

Thank you honeyshack and CentralPAguy, I am really listening to what you both have to say- I think I will wait 12 more days to recheck and then requeen if I need to. 

I like to think of it more as a stewardship than having them as pets or livestock, but I understand the point and sometimes it is better to be more objective in making decisions for the hives. It is all such a humbling learning experience. I am thankful to have this forum for support!

Thank you,
Kelly


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

CentralPAguy said:


> Do you buy your queen's locally or thru the mail?


I bought her through the mail and when she arrived she was smaller than I have usually seen queens.


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

CentralPAguy said:


> KLY,
> 
> Wht I requeen, I open the hive in three days to make sure that the girls got her out.


That's what I was doing today, but I think I lingered too long, I was getting nervous the queen was already released so I started to look for signs and saw the three emergency queen cups started and I had removed the one I had found on Friday so they were all new.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

hello,again now the small queen happened to me on one hive....she laid a few eggs then superceded her.go in and check I would as long as temps are good....not worth the stress..opcorn:


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

How is the hive doing?


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

I have taken your advise and I am waiting the 12 days until I check again... so far it has only been a week. I can't wait to see how they are doing, I will be sure to let you know!


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## dvwilson (Jul 18, 2009)

I followed this thread with interest because I too am a first year beek and had the bad luck to have a poor or no-laying queen this summer, and the really bad problem of a laying worker. I had fourteen queen cells but probably no successful new queen because (1) the laying worker killed the emerging queen or (2) no fertile eggs to hatch into queens. I finally dumped the bees onto the ground (seven stings) in order to get rid of the old queen and/or the laying worker and re-queened. I checked three days after inserting the queen cage to be sure she was released, and she was out. I checked a week later (day 10 after re-queening) and at that point I did not see the queen (she was marked) and I did not see much change in the hive. I too was sure that the new queen had not survived. I was pretty depressed and decided to just continue to feed the hive and wait to see what the situation was. A week later (day 17) I inspected again and I had capped brood and larva! I inspect every 7 to 10 days. I have yet to see the queen, and I am not very good at identifying eggs. However, the hive is very calm compared to when it was queenless, there are no new queen cells and I continue to see capped brood and larvae. So there is a queen and she is doing her thing. Day 12 after re-queening may be too early to be sure what is going on unless your new queen got busy right away. 

I am retired from working for physicians for 35 years. I am concerned about your bee venom allergy. I assume your allergist knows you keep bees, and that you have an EpiPen in your pocket whenever you approach your hive. As has been discussed in previous threads, one does not build up a tolerance by repeated stings, and professional beekeepers have had to give up their hives due to new bee sting allergies. I am very careful, but sometimes you just get stung, i.e., when I had to dump the bees and reassemble the hive. Sometimes I get a sting through my glove. If you lose your hive (and I hope you don't) you may want to rethink this hobby. The natural progression of the hobby is to grow your hive and split it. Otherwise it will swarm, which may be OK with you. Two hives are probably easier to manipulate than a single, as you can switch out frames of brood, honey, etc. However, that means double the opportunity to be stung. 

Hope all goes well --

Debbie


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

Hi Debbie,

Thanks for your message. I hope you have better luck with your bees too!
It will really be day 16 for me if I count from when I put the new queen into the hive (it is 12 days from when I saw she was released) I am not sure when I should check, I am just so anxious though. But you are right, I should wait and she may just start laying, I hope so!

As for my allergy, I apparently have always been allergic, I just did not know it until I found this passion and well the third sting I received was to my head, which swelled to E.T. proportions. It was never an option for me to give up beekeeping and I was lucky to have an allergist who is understanding, she compared it to someone having a dog, you can't just tell them to give up their dog! (this is not to compare bees with dog and think of them as pets but just to compare it to something you love) I am very careful, have EpiPen with me wherever I go and I actually have my shot tomorrow (now monthly) My reactions seem to be less extreme, none being severe. And it has never been life-threatening. Thanks for your concern, but I'll be OK, it's my bees to worry about!

Thanks,
Kelly


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Day 12 is from the day the queen is put in the hive.
Day 1...install queen cage...in such a way as you are able to check if the queen has been released
Day 4...check the least invasive way possilbe if the queen is released. Try not to remove frames.
Day 12...look for eggs and larva


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

Ohhh, I misunderstood- I plan to check Thursday then, I will let you know what I see... thanks!


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

Today I saw eggs!! Hooray! One in each cell.

I also saw something weird, outside the hive there were a few dead pupae, white color, laying about. I even saw a worker carrying one. I am not sure what this means.

Overall the hive seems to be doing much better.

THANKS!


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Have you hit a dearth? Those could be drone eggs and larva if you have. If you are in the tail end of your honey flow, your hive could still be in trouble because there will be not much time to get ready for winter
You might consider your options...
If you decide to keep this hive, get feed on them to help them build and give them pollen patties.
HOwever, a queen will shut down as the weather changes and as the sun light decreases so think hard and decide what you want to do

CONGRATS on having a queen....good job on waiting it out. Patience is one thing a farmer of all types needs


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

Hi again so here is an update on my hive and I have another weird issue wasn't sure to make a new post or just continue with this one since it is about the same hive...

Today I inspected and saw queen not much brood at all, some larva, but the weird thing was there were a noticeable amount of smaller size workers in a lighter body color with very tiny eyes. I tried to take photos but they came out blurry. 

I do realize I have a different queen but she is Italian as was the previous queen and I am afraid of possibly having a mutation, (which I just read about and it scared me, but every time I do read my bee books I think I have another problem so I may be overreacting) 

There was also a start of an emergency queen cell.

I am feeding sugar water and gave them a piece of Mega bee today, I saw them bringing in pollen and they seem to have a good supply of honey, hoping she will start laying more, previously I had a drone laying queen. 

Don't know if the weird looking bees should be a concern??? 

Thanks!

KLY


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## peletier (May 5, 2007)

My hives are full of different looking bees...remember there are multiple fathers involved so this is to be expected. What you describe sounds like newly emerged workers. They come out of the cells looking a little smaller and a good bit lighter than more mature workers.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

the first time i saw one emerge, I questioned it myself. MUCH SMALLER than what i expected....but they are nice, new, smaller and do get bigger.....LOL


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

if there is an emergency queen cel, there should be several. When it is an emergency they tend to make alot of cells on the face of a frame.
Is it just a queen cup? Is there anything in there?
At what stage is it?
Does it look like a can opener opened it at the bottom. It would look a little jagged, not alot, like torn paper. 
May be that is the cell the queen came from. If it is, the cap might have just closed up the cell and you think there is a queen in there but really it is empty...post that blury pic.
If you were in a dearth, and the queen shut down before you started to feed they might thing that there is something wrong with the queen. 
I would knock back the cell, check it first for something in there.
Do they have enough room but not alot of extra space?

Sometimes it is hard to get them out of the queen making thing.

Small bees, just hatched.


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## KLY (Jul 12, 2009)

honeyshack said:


> if there is an emergency queen cel, there should be several. When it is an emergency they tend to make alot of cells on the face of a frame.
> Is it just a queen cup? Is there anything in there?
> At what stage is it?
> Does it look like a can opener opened it at the bottom. It would look a little jagged, not alot, like torn paper.
> ...


The queen cell was just started - open and small - only one and not well formed- stubby, I guess you could say. I saw the queen and she wad marked.. looked larger than when she first arrived.. funny how that is.
I don't think I am in a dearth now because so much pollen is being brought in and my friend near by who has a hive is getting a dark nectar flow. for the space issue- I actually still have my super on - not for honey but for space if they need it and they are still not building up that comb so I assume they have enough space- it looked like there was room in the first deep for laying...

"The waiting is the hardest part"


Thanks!!


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