# US Bee Imports



## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I will admit, I am undecided about this. However when the US pays 1/2 the price for a package than we do...or even cheaper nuc packages, it makes me wonder. I would be scared of the SHB though...no doubt about that.
As for the sick and dying....I do not winter them at all. I have learned any hive that has a maybe or a hem and haw type of chance at survival for the winter will get combined or shook out and let them find a new home. I start judging the hives in the beginning of August, and start combining about the middle of August and even now. 
I have learned it is just too costly to winter a weak hive. 
the hives i combined last week look alot better today when I started treating


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

They closed the border to prevent you guys from getting all those nasty pests that you are using the chemical treatments on. They closed the barn door after all the horses were out.

Personally, my gut feeling is that you are going to start seeing more smuggled bees like they smuggled queens before the politicians come to their senses.

I also think more Canadian beekeepers are going to start splitting colonies in late summer and overwintering nucs.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Canadian Prairies, wintering nucs is a hard thing to do...costly to set up. and the success is not the greatest when wintering outdoors


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_However when the US pays 1/2 the price for a package than we do...or even cheaper nuc packages, it makes me wonder._

Package suppliers are having a hard time supplying US demand. If the border opens with Canada....demand will spike even more and everyone will be paying the price Canada pays for packages now.

_I would be scared of the SHB though...no doubt about that._

I think your biggest concern with SHB is if you pull your honey and let it sit in the honey house for a week or two before you extract it. If you get SHB, this is where you will likely notice it. You will have a frame with brood in it, it will sit for a week or two, and you will end up with a mess of SHB maggots.

If you had a small patch of brood in a super that got extracted, and that stack of wet supers sits around for a week or two before it gets back out to a yard, you may find a pile of SHB maggots on the drip pallet too.

When we pop a lid, sometimes we see a few SHB. Now that it is later in the season, we're seeing more in the hives. You might see 10 or 15 on the inner cover. They don't seem to impact hives in yards. We do see the larvae if stuff sits around too long.

Since you're even farther north, I suspect SHB should be even less of a problem for you than it is for us. And for us, it's a very minor pest. More damage is done with frames that get broken during extraction.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

After last year package shortage I would have to ask who are you going to get to produce enough packages for Canada too.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

honeyshack said:


> I would be scared of the SHB though...no doubt about that.


SHB aren’t going to be an issue in Canada. The soil just doesn’t stay warm long enough for them to reproduce successfully.



The Honey Householder said:


> After last year package shortage I would have to ask who are you going to get to produce enough packages for Canada too.


 There was one S GA package producer, that I’m aware of, who never had a problem. He sends many of his hives to almonds and gets them back LOADED with bees. If the Canadian border were opened to packages I’m pretty sure his model would be copied across the south.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

If there was a much higher demand for package bees I'm sure there are a few larger operators that could fill in the gaps.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Beeslave said:


> I'm sure there are a few larger operators that could fill in the gaps.


Thank-you , BeeSlave


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Ian said:


> This is a real hot topic here in Canada. To open the boarder to package bees or not.
> 
> Well, Im going to state my opinion on the whole issue right here,


Ian,
If we were to forget about SHB issues - which I think is a non- issue (no way SHB could survive up there) - what are the current reasons for not allowing "Free Trade"? Are there valid biological reasons, or is it Political? If it is political, I wonder what the reasoning is.

Herb


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

They won't open the border here (Ontario). Our association along with the 'bee girls' have devoted all their effortS to building a domestic industry that supplies $30 early June queens and $140-160 nucs to a captive audience.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

123456 said:


> They won't open the border here (Ontario). Our association along with the 'bee girls' have devoted all their effortS to building a domestic industry that supplies $30 early June queens and $140-160 nucs to a captive audience.


So its an economic thing.... kinda like our Pharmaceutics industry. I suppose someone has some serious political clout in order to keep the border closed and impose those kind of prices on Canadian Beekeepers.


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## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

I am happy to see people talking about Canadian beekeeping on Beesource. I went to the Alberta convention on a whim three years ago and left pretty impressed with all the Canadian beekeepers I got to meet. I'll never forget drinking beers with one Canadian beekeeper in his honey house drooling over his set up that could extract 70 barrels a day. 

The bottom line is that there is a surplus of bulk bees in California after almonds; but unfortunately there is a lack of queens to match up with those bulk bees to make packages. I would like to know from the Canadian beekeepers if they think there would be the potential for bulk bees (queenless packages) that could be used for boosting weak hives or matching up with queens in Canada from Hawaii, New Zealand, Australia or Chile. If so, why not let Canadian beekeepers come down to California in late March early April shake tell their hearts are content and go home. 

With continued pressure to supply strong hives for almonds more beekeepers are going to need an outlet for extra bees in spring. Just some thoughts.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

The same people who closed the border in 1986 are going to keep it closed. They, being the powers that be , want no more pests now or in the future and see the present situation as better than importing US packages.Successful wintering has proven to be costly but not unprofitable with larger crops obtained to offset the high cost .The big problem occurs when losses of over 20 - 30% happen, or higher losses which eliminate honey production in that year, unless expensive packages or splits or overwintered colonies are bought.There is a limited supply of imported packages and bees for sale in Canada.Some in the industry like that situation and do not want it to change......they are a part of the powers that be


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Keep in mind hpm that only 3000 nucs or so are produced and sold in Ontario on a yearly basis. Not sure why. If suppliers can't produce more or if buyers just don't want more. I think it's small commercial beekeepers selling to hobbyists. All and all a very small market. Not sure how many NZ or Oz packages are imported there.

Jean-Marc


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## Pugs (Jul 15, 2004)

How do swarms know where the border is and why would they not fly over it? Doesn't make much sense to me. 

Pugs


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Pugs, I guess there are some things they can't control, and then there are the things they can control, keeping the borders closed to the importing of U.S. bees is one of them. They are slowing down the inevitable, that's all. John


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>As for the sick and dying....I do not winter them at all

yA, I dont winter sick and dying either, or at least I try not to. What I meant was killing off hives that varroa would naturally kill off. Naturally kill off because of no treatments being used. 
YOu see, I would kill off hives over threashold, and keep hives below threasholds. No treatments needed, but lots of replacements required. 
Or go completely to the kill off management practice, no treatments except dusting for AFB when hives are brooding. Take all the honey I can gather, then kill them off, and ready the equipment for next spring. No cost of feeding, medications, wintering, and less time involved in fall.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Are there valid biological reasons, or is it Political? If it is political, I wonder what the reasoning is.

Herb ,

Im not in the inner circle of our beekeeping industry,
on the face of it, they state biological. And for good reason. I look down there and see a whole lot of crazy which we dont have up here. That might be a good enough reason to keep things status Quo, . I kinda believe we "might" not experience the same problems. We runa different management style of beekeeping as compared to the migratory that usually is run down there.

And for political,.? everything is political, isnt it?
The only time issues arent political is when your on the same side of the issue


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Ian said:


> Im not in the inner circle of our beekeeping industry,
> on the face of it, they state biological. And for good reason. I look down there and see a whole lot of crazy which we dont have up here. That might be a good enough reason to keep things status Quo, . I kinda believe we "might" not experience the same problems. We runa different management style of beekeeping as compared to the migratory that usually is run down there.


Ian - Nearly everything I read about Canadian Beekeeping interests me, even makes me envious. I mean you are probably preparing to put your bees away in nice big barn and take a long vacation, while I am still down here sweating in 90F bee yards. I am pretty sure if there was not a "Closed Border" that both sides would be better off, unless of course there is some big biological time bomb waiting to go off on Canadian soil. And I agree with you - everything is political, but what biological things are the powers that bee worried about... mites, SHB, AHB,... some strange virus?

Well Ian... have a nice vacation... oh yea - I forget - you do have to go take care of those pretty cows!


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

Ian;583415
What I meant was killing off hives that varroa would naturally kill off. Naturally kill off because of no treatments being used.
YOu see said:


> This kind of management would not do too good with the public in US.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

AndreiRN said:


> This kind of management would not do too good with the public in US.


It is a successful business model for quite a few beekeepers here in the US regardless of any "public" opinion.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Well Ian... have a nice vacation... oh yea - I forget - you do have to go take care of those pretty cows! 

Ha, ya, !! Not this beekeeper! 
Between cows, crops and beekeeping, I have a hard time finding any time for family 
let alone a vacation,

this last summer, I actually took 4 days off with the family fishing, believe it or not


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>This kind of management would not do too good with the public in US. 

and you think managing with pesticides is?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

AndreiRN said:


> This kind of management would not do too good with the public in US.


I'm thinkin' that the US public wouldn't be too thrilled if they knew of all the various unapproved chemical ****tails that many US beekeepers put into their hives.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

beemandan said:


> I'm thinkin' that the US public wouldn't be too thrilled if they knew of all the various unapproved chemical ****tails that many US beekeepers put into their hives.


What's in these ' unapproved chemical ****tails' and who are these beeks you refer to?


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

123456 said:


> What's in these ' unapproved chemical ****tails' and who are these beeks you refer to?


Everyone with more than 10 hives.

And everything that your government approves and ours dosent. It's amazing how right Mao was when he talked about the corruption of capitalism. Fair is not a word in the American vocabulary, simply money. Money is liquid power. Sure there are plenty of fair and good people just not our government. On to point, the millions it would take to approve things that obviously work and with little trace in equipment. What are they going to do to the beekeeper? Fine them? Laughable. American public opinion is so slanted towards bees that all we'd have to do in court is scream, "BUT CANADA DOES IT!" 

I digress, the US government wants their lobbyist money, the Canadian government wants their tax money. Everybody's out for themselves. Noone is out for the bees. 

BTW Ian, when you talk about killing off hives, I presume you mean requeen with suitable genetics, remember these silly hobbyists will take you literally...and kill more bees.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

no, kill off the hives


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

peacekeeperapiaries said:


> It is a successful business model for quite a few beekeepers here in the US regardless of any "public" opinion.


You put that on your honey label and let me know how it goes.


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

Ian said:


> >>This kind of management would not do too good with the public in US.
> 
> and you think managing with pesticides is?


NO, and lack of knowledge and greed drives one to use pesticides in the hives.


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

Skinner Apiaries said:


> 1. Everyone with more than 10 hives.
> 2. Fair is not a word in the American vocabulary, simply money.
> 3. Money is liquid power.


1. Not true.
2. Maybe YOUR vocabulary.
3. Money is a product of labour.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

AndreiRN said:


> NO, and lack of knowledge and greed drives one to use pesticides in the hives.


How many hives do you have? Where do you take them? You're saying alot about this like you know what you're saying, but your own name says RN, what are you an RN with 10 hives that sit in your backyard? Do not dictate what is viable economically nor professionally when you are a hobbyist. Know your place. I spent 60 hours last week with mine, and there are several weeks left I do not know any commercial migratory beekeepers pretending to be chemical free. I do know of a couple small-time and nonmigratory outfits that say their chemical free, but that's until you read between the lines. Everyone treats with something. The USDA study on Russian bees found after 2 years 2/100 Russian hives were still alive, and 0/100 Italians. But Russians are absolutely un-viable, I sold what I had that was russian before the drones could eat me up with mediocre genetics. I do run vsh hives, Carni's, and Italians. I have been doing what I can to put more vsh drones in my yards and police up inbreeding with careful lineage records. I also graft based on production, brood pattern, and mite count.

As to killing hives off entirely, public opinion aside, that's just wasteful. I think you can consistently requeen and sequester them with enough drone mothers so as to save those bulk bees. It dosent take 10's of thousands of dollars of bee losses to make better bees, simply proven genetics, consistent testing, consistent exposure. But I guess if someone has an unlimited fountain of money


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

With no treatments in mind, our bees will not make it 2 seasons.

Spring mite count 1%, no treatment
fall mite count 5%, no treatment
Next spring count 5%, no treatment,
bees dead before fall.

Buy the bees in spring, use them, and kill them off in fall. 
The mites will kill them off anyway. No feeding or medication cost, easier on equipment and labour. 
Cost of packages is the only unknown.

you have to realize where I beekeep. There is no rebuilding of hives during winter months. We cant simply put in a new queen and rebuild the population. Our bees are flightless for 4-5 months straight. We need healthy hives to make winter

It was a very common practice before the 90's,
it was widely accepted practice by people here


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Oh I see your angle, from the package to comb practice, then yes it makes sense. It just seemed impractical to waste the bulk bees purely for selection. But, I get it.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Some claim to have achieved this. However those that use those queens kinda complain that those bees are very conservative. The queens shut down every time a cloud bases by. They start very late in the spring and shut down early on. The critics claim that those bees are not populous enough to make a descent honey crop. Those bees are not very broody so they are not very good at almond pollination. Small population equals small or no pay check for those hives. So those kinda bees are not very useful in commercial beekeeping.

Essentially commercial beekeepers opt for broody bees that make huge populations early for almond pollination. Later those big populations can make a honey crop if Mother Nature co-operates. Varroa treatments can be paid if you get a good almond paycheck and if you have a warehouse full of honey.

Andrei: To suggest that beekeepers use treatments because of ignorance or greed , ah come on give me a break. Beekeeper and greed don't match very well. Beekeepers do this profession because:
1-dad was a beekeeper and he needed help
2-they like working with bees.
3-the hobby just kinda got out of hand.

Beekeepers use treatments to keep their bees alive and well, not because they are ignorant. Taqke care of your ees and your bees will take care of you.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Ian:

At 5% varroa in the fall I would definitely treat. Are you saying that Rheal L does not recommend treatment at that level?

Jean-Marc


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jean-marc said:


> 1-dad was a beekeeper and he needed help
> 2-they like working with bees.
> 3-the hobby just kinda got out of hand.
> Jean-Marc


very well said, JM


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Mr Skinner:

As far as mite treatments go Canada has formic and so does the US. We have and edge here in that we can apply it using whatever method we feel suitour needs best. Formic acid was registered through the efforts of Kerry Clark who worked the Ministry of Agriculture Fisherires and Foods for the province of British Columbia.

Canada has oxalic acid, thanks mostly to the efforts of the Canadian Honey Council. US beekeepers can perhaps us it to help clean their top bars and not to kill varroa. Slight edge to Canada.

US beekeepers have access to thymol products. Canadian beekeepers don't. Definite edge to American beekeepers.

Canadian beekeepers have access to Amitraz in the form of a strip and this thanks mostly to the efforts of Medhat Nasr. I saw recently where South Dakota is trying to get an emergency registration of Apivar. Definite edge to Canada.

Overall perhaps a slight edge to Canada but not enough to make the grass appear greener on this side of the border. Besides soon it'll be white.

Jean-Marc


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_US beekeepers have access to thymol products. Canadian beekeepers don't. Definite edge to American beekeepers._

Are you sure about that? Recently, Allen Dick mentioned on his site about putting thymol in his syrup, www.honeybeeworld.com and he is in Alberta. Check the Oct 5th diary posting.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>At 5% varroa in the fall I would definitely treat. Are you saying that Rheal L does not recommend treatment at that level?

Jean-marc

thats now what I am saying. I agree, 5% is the treashold. Im just trying to say that holding bees over @ 5% without treatments is pretty much the same as killin of the hive in the fall.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Countryboy, I guess I should have worded that slightly differently. Canadian beekeepers can't purchase products such as Apiguard and the other thymol product, the one with some thymol and other essential oils that are impregnated in a green wafer. I forget the name of that product. Sure Canadians can purchase thymol crystals and add it to syrup. We don't have the blessing of the governement to do so. Other than Alpha I don't know any research institution that has made claims that thymol in syrup kills varroa. It's kinda like American beekeepers who don't have amitraz in a strip like we do but have been using liquid amitraz for some time now.

Jean-Marc


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

Skinner Apiaries said:


> 1. How many hives do you have?
> 2. Where do you take them?
> 3. but your own name says RN,
> 4. Do not dictate what is viable economically nor professionally when you are a hobbyist.
> ...


1. 90
2. Almonds and orange and city.
3. Name initials and not profesion.
4. Nobody dictates to anybody. It is a free flow of information and opinions.
5. Point it to me. Please.
6. Agree


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

jean-marc said:


> Andrei: To suggest that beekeepers use treatments because of ignorance or greed , ah come on give me a break. Beekeeper and greed don't match very well. Beekeepers do this profession because:
> 1-dad was a beekeeper and he needed help
> 2-they like working with bees.
> 3-the hobby just kinda got out of hand.
> ...


You are right here.
But the one's I know are more $$$ hungry then bees.


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## bigevilgrape (Aug 21, 2008)

Skinner Apiaries said:


> I do not know any commercial migratory beekeepers pretending to be chemical free. I


I don't know anything about commercial beekeeping, and while my personal goals are to stay away from chemicals I understand that commercial beeks have a lot at stake. I don't expect them to try and me chemical free. However, I did listen to a speaker this summer who was, in fact, a migratory treatment free beekeeper.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Oh, and as to the 5% threshold, in my area winters are mild, brood rearing and a very light, patchy, flow continues through winter. A 5% mite load in fall is WAY too much. Quite a lot less than that can still be fatal, and only if I can get mites pretty close to zero in fall will the hives be looking real good in spring. 

ya, i hear you.

our guys figured bees can winter on 10%,
but thats before viral infections really took hold here. Id say its not the mite so much killing the hives, but the virus they bring with them


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

AndreiRN said:


> You are right here.
> But the one's I know are more $$$ hungry then bees.


I know a very successful businessman, beekeeper, who once told me, "You gotta like being in the bees first and if you're lucky, you'll find financial success."


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

jean-marc said:


> Overall perhaps a slight edge to Canada but not enough to make the grass appear greener on this side of the border. Besides soon it'll be white.
> 
> Jean-Marc


That made me chuckle. It just seems to me your government listens to what the bee officials say, and here it seems like someone's gotta be making alot of money on the lisencing before it goes anywhere...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

hey oldtimer,

>>we have no such things over here

soo many perspectives on this business it can make your head spin. Thats also what keeps this craft so interesting. 

You know, even between beekeepers here, our styles vary so much. Alot of guys work their hives in singles year round. Very efficiently, yet I cant get the same performance they do as when I work doubles. I can manage doubles excellently. 
I have found a system that works for my operation, and budget. you might notice I dont have the nicest boxes or the fanciest wintering shed. As I progress, I will update my operation, but until then, the money flows into other areas of the farm


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## mnbeekeeper (Jun 30, 2010)

i wonder if your canadian methods would work for us here in MN. we could winter bees in a building until feb. then pull them out and ship to almonds. i guess they would need to get there early to have time to build up. i dont like the bees sitting in a desert in cali. so close to so many other hives.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

A couple of years ago we shipped half our bees to Cali. and the other half to East Texas. My conclusion is that east Texas is just a little better environment, temps were usually comparable, nothing for the bees to work either place so that really wasnt a factor but by Feb. 1 we just had better looking bees in Texas. Since we do our splitting in east Texas anyway it works better to use it as a staging area and leave all the culls there to build up. It really dosent take a lot of extra work to ensure that pallets are free from fire ants and debris especially since the ants arent too active during the winter months.


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