# So confused on splits



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

you need to talk to a better local bee guy
I split all the them moving the hives just a few feet, the forage bees go back to the old spot so if you leave just a small spit there (sometimes one drawn comb of open brood) you will get a bout 1/3 of the bees in that spot and the bigger split keeps all the nurse bees










if you can't find your queen you can a shake all the bees off 2-3 combs of open brood and a few of food and put them on top of the hive over a queen excluder.. the nurse bees (who haven't flown out of the hive yet) go up threw the excluder and a day later you can place that split on a new stand and the vast majority of the bees will stay with it and rase a new queen


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## UtterParadise (11 mo ago)

Dang! Okay. That makes sense. You spilt all yours in the same location. Do you think I can take one split and move it 50 yards to my front yard?
Or should I just keep them all right there like you did.


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## Akademee (Apr 5, 2020)

I honestly have never really understood the whole "move them X miles away" thing. I know the rationale with the foragers returning to the original location , but that just doesn't seem like that big of a deal and I can take advantage of that.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

i preffer to split in the same yard, often right next to the parent colony. this allows all the field bees who are loyal to the original queen to fly back to that parent colony (if you ensure the queen remains there). the young bees in the split will more readily take in a new queen or queen cell. msl lays it out nicely. dont lock them in. you can also extra that top box of honey and put the empty comb back for queen to lay in.


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## dekster (Jun 26, 2019)

Losing field bees by moving hive only matters if you purchase nuc/hive from the guy next door, otherwise even if they come back to your original hive, those are still your bees and you haven't lost anything (assuming new split has enough nurse bees). I always split within my own yards and move wherever they have to go- it could be 2 feet or 200 feet as it fits my hive placement plan.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

UtterParadise said:


> I’m in California Central Valley. I have never split before. One hive is booming. Bottom brood box is full of brood. At lease 8 frames. They have completely drawen out the top brood box with honey.
> 
> I live on a 3 acre property. I don’t have anywhere else to take them. Maybe I can ask a friend?
> 
> ...


You can do it this way on your property. Find your queen in the bottom box and put her, the frame she is on and two more frames of brood in a separate deep. Replace the removed frames in your brood box. Put a queen excluder over bottom queenless box and set your honey box on top of it and add a super. Put a queen excluder over the super and put the hive body/deep with the queen on top of the excluder on the super. Fill your top box with frames. I like to use good drawn brood combs but if you have lots of honey flow left, use foundation. The top box needs an entrance. I supply mine by boring a hole right below the handhold in the box. I like that entrance on the opposite side to the normal hive entrance. 

The strong parent colony will produce a strong high quality emergency cell as they have all the resources. The queen on top with her small split heated by the colony below will keep right on laying and expand rapidly as the colony below will soon run out of open brood to rear and nurse bees will move up to the brood they smell above. If the flow is strong enough, you may need to add supers both bottom and top colonies. After thirty days. check for a mated laying queen in colony below. If you have one, just set the top colony on their own bottom board. If the colony below failed to requeen, Basically move the queenrite colony to the existting bottomboard and extract the bottom box as brood will have emerged and it will now be full of honey. You eliminate swarming and usually get an above average honey crop.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

UtterParadise said:


> Do you think I can take one split and move it 50 yards to my front yard?


sure, but ask you self why
I like my hives close so I can work them quickly and easily, move resources back and forth as needed ect


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Yes to all the above.

There are a LOT of ways to do a split but you certainly don't need to move them any kind of distance to do the split.

When in the same yard I like to move the queen. I add a bunch of brood, and shake in a ton of nurse bees. This is important as all the older bees will return to the original location. So pack it full and know that many will not stay.

In the original location leave several frames of brood as well as OPEN brood so they have eggs/larvae to make a new queen.

Because the original location has all the foragers they will be able to bring in more resources to make you a better queen - in my eyes anyway.

But so far you've been given a lot of options and all will work. Learn a few methods and do which one makes the most sense to you and fits your end goal.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

mtnmyke said:


> Because the original location has all the foragers they will be able to bring in more resources to make you a better queen - in my eyes anyway.


the data from SARE FNE20-964 suggests this as well 



> Our team saw that the method of moving the hive within the yard and moving back resources to the original position to raise a queen had very high mating success (84/104 = 81%). This method is easily executed by beginning beekeepers and can utilize most of the conditions found to contribute to success (i.e. medium population density, mostly open brood, and newer comb age). Our team called this method a “Run-Away Split.” By using this method, small-scale bee breeding has the potential to make significant progress in local adaptation and Varroa mite resistance by simply selecting for survival and vigor.





> The 6 “run-away split” queens submitted from double box Comfort Hives (24 liters) had an average score of 84 and had significantly higher weight (229.4 mg verses the group’s average of 209.7 mg).








Final report for FNE20-964 - SARE Grant Management System







projects.sare.org














WalkAwaySplit_Part1.mp4







drive.google.com


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Splits are a great opportunity to clean out mites, too. Especially if you know which split got the queen. If you can find the queen, put her in a split with no brood, especially no capped brood. Treat that split now to make a nearly mite-free colony.

The other split gets all the brood, including the capped brood. This is where the great majority of the mites will be. It will be at least a month until the new queen starts laying, maybe up to 40 days. That gives plenty of time for all the brood to hatch and treatments are effective.


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

UtterParadise, are you wanting a honey crop from both colonies?


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## UtterParadise (11 mo ago)

JoshuaW said:


> UtterParadise, are you wanting a honey crop from both colonies?


I would love a honey crop from both. Possible?


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## UtterParadise (11 mo ago)

AR1 said:


> Splits are a great opportunity to clean out mites, too. Especially if you know which split got the queen. If you can find the queen, put her in a split with no brood, especially no capped brood. Treat that split now to make a nearly mite-free colony.
> 
> The other split gets all the brood, including the capped brood. This is where the great majority of the mites will be. It will be at least a month until the new queen starts laying, maybe up to 40 days. That gives plenty of time for all the brood to hatch and treatments are effective.


Ok. I like the idea of that!


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## UtterParadise (11 mo ago)

mtnmyke said:


> Yes to all the above.
> 
> There are a LOT of ways to do a split but you certainly don't need to move them any kind of distance to do the split.
> 
> ...


Okay. Love this simple answer 🤣

my entire bottom box has drawen out brood. Could I split it more then once?


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## UtterParadise (11 mo ago)

msl said:


> sure, but ask you self why
> I like my hives close so I can work them quickly and easily, move resources back and forth as needed ect


okay. Got it. Someone told me I should keep them far apart so they don’t swap diseases as easily 🤣 guessing that isn’t true.

I wanted to move one hive to my front yard as a conversation piece to sell honey to clients seeing it and asking etc.


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## UtterParadise (11 mo ago)

Vance G said:


> You can do it this way on your property. Find your queen in the bottom box and put her, the frame she is on and two more frames of brood in a separate deep. Replace the removed frames in your brood box. Put a queen excluder over bottom queenless box and set your honey box on top of it and add a super. Put a queen excluder over the super and put the hive body/deep with the queen on top of the excluder on the super. Fill your top box with frames. I like to use good drawn brood combs but if you have lots of honey flow left, use foundation. The top box needs an entrance. I supply mine by boring a hole right below the handhold in the box. I like that entrance on the opposite side to the normal hive entrance.
> 
> The strong parent colony will produce a strong high quality emergency cell as they have all the resources. The queen on top with her small split heated by the colony below will keep right on laying and expand rapidly as the colony below will soon run out of open brood to rear and nurse bees will move up to the brood they smell above. If the flow is strong enough, you may need to add supers both bottom and top colonies. After thirty days. check for a mated laying queen in colony below. If you have one, just set the top colony on their own bottom board. If the colony below failed to requeen, Basically move the queenrite colony to the existting bottomboard and extract the bottom box as brood will have emerged and it will now be full of honey. You eliminate swarming and usually get an above average honey crop.


Dang! This sounds so cool!

so if they do request in the bottom. Then I just take that too hive off and place it on its own bottom board right next to the parent hive?

also.

my entire bottom box has drawen out brood. Could I split it more then once?

could I maybe split it once with brood but queen less right next to the parent hive. Then follow what you say here?

that way I can end up with 3 hives?


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## UtterParadise (11 mo ago)

dekster said:


> Losing field bees by moving hive only matters if you purchase nuc/hive from the guy next door, otherwise even if they come back to your original hive, those are still your bees and you haven't lost anything (assuming new split has enough nurse bees). I always split within my own yards and move wherever they have to go- it could be 2 feet or 200 feet as it fits my hive placement plan.


Love this. Okay! I’m feeling super confident. Thank you


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## UtterParadise (11 mo ago)

Vance G said:


> You can do it this way on your property. Find your queen in the bottom box and put her, the frame she is on and two more frames of brood in a separate deep. Replace the removed frames in your brood box. Put a queen excluder over bottom queenless box and set your honey box on top of it and add a super. Put a queen excluder over the super and put the hive body/deep with the queen on top of the excluder on the super. Fill your top box with frames. I like to use good drawn brood combs but if you have lots of honey flow left, use foundation. The top box needs an entrance. I supply mine by boring a hole right below the handhold in the box. I like that entrance on the opposite side to the normal hive entrance.
> 
> The strong parent colony will produce a strong high quality emergency cell as they have all the resources. The queen on top with her small split heated by the colony below will keep right on laying and expand rapidly as the colony below will soon run out of open brood to rear and nurse bees will move up to the brood they smell above. If the flow is strong enough, you may need to add supers both bottom and top colonies. After thirty days. check for a mated laying queen in colony below. If you have one, just set the top colony on their own bottom board. If the colony below failed to requeen, Basically move the queenrite colony to the existting bottomboard and extract the bottom box as brood will have emerged and it will now be full of honey. You eliminate swarming and usually get an above average honey crop.


also when can I do this? It’s warmer then ever here. I know they say end of March. But the almond trees are in full bloom or starting and my bees are going crazy. It’s so full. It’s 70 degrees


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

UtterParadise said:


> also when can I do this? It’s warmer then ever here. I know they say end of March. But the almond trees are in full bloom or starting and my bees are going crazy. It’s so full. It’s 70 degrees


You can start splits when you have drones. You certainly can't mate your queen without them out flying.
If you're near the almond blooms you'll also have commercial hives scattered everywhere. As such, there are likely no shortage of drones in your area right now.

And you can do a split and get a honey crop, but that really depends on your area and how well you manage them.


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## UtterParadise (11 mo ago)

Oh yeah duh!! Drones. Hahah. Sorry. New to this. Newbie processing all the terms.
Okay great! Thank you!!!


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

UtterParadise said:


> Oh yeah duh!! Drones. Hahah. Sorry. New to this. Newbie processing all the terms.
> Okay great! Thank you!!!


Just watch and see if drones are flying. Since you are new, can you identify drones? Pretty easy once you have seen them flying, bigger and make a different buzzing sound.

To your other question, yes, you can make more than one split. I usually don't because I am also fairly inexperienced, but if you have small nucs it can certainly be done. Try googling 'mini-nucs' and you can see examples of how extreme experienced breeders can take this. Hopefully someone who does this often will chime in with advice. One drawback is that you end up with several small colonies, which are more vulnerable to being robbed out. It's a tradeoff and you take your chances.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

You certainly can split multiple times but each split weakens the others. If you want 2 really strong colonies that may give you honey, then only do one. If your goal is to get as many hives as possible you may want to invest in some resource (double nuc) hives. These provide area for two colonies that share heat and you could do a 2 frame split in them. But the quality of queens would likely be poor since it wouldn't be in the original location.

Since you only have one hive, do one split and go from there.


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## UtterParadise (11 mo ago)

Ok. I will just do one split. Thank you!


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## gator75 (Apr 21, 2021)

I'm waiting for queen cells and then going taranov route I decided as I'm not looking for many more colonies. Will have a chance to OAV both as well with no capped brood.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Moving the Q away from the original location in the same yard so that the majority of the bees and resources are used to raise a replacement Q will give you the best Q.
After 10 days,come back to the hive at the original location and you should find multiple sealed Q cells.
Now you can make additional splits with a frame with a cell, emerging brood, adhering bees and a couple of shakes of nurse bees off of open brood.
Do this early morning or late evening(best) when more bees are in the hive.
You need plenty of drones for mating,resources coming in (or feed and pollen sub) and warm temps.The more bees,the faster the colony will grow.
Plan on 4-5 weeks to get a laying Q.Size your entrances to the amount of bees.

The benefit of an outyard is that the location is strange and all the bees will orient to their new locations.Less drifting of bees.Less drifting of Qs returning from mating flights.Less chance of robbing from large hives in the same yard.


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## UtterParadise (11 mo ago)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> Moving the Q away from the original location in the same yard so that the majority of the bees and resources are used to raise a replacement Q will give you the best Q.
> After 10 days,come back to the hive at the original location and you should find multiple sealed Q cells.
> Now you can make additional splits with a frame with a cell, emerging brood, adhering bees and a couple of shakes of nurse bees off of open brood.
> Do this early morning or late evening(best) when more bees are in the hive.
> ...


Thank you! This is great! And makes a lot of sense.


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## FormosaGardens (May 27, 2021)

UtterParadise said:


> I’m in California Central Valley. I have never split before. One hive is booming. Bottom brood box is full of brood. At lease 8 frames. They have completely drawn out the top brood box with honey.
> 
> I live on a 3 acre property. I don’t have anywhere else to take them. Maybe I can ask a friend?
> 
> ...


-TBH I don't move the splits very far either, it's easy getting in and out of the hives if they're in a row or square yard. 
-I also keep the old queen at the parent hive, shake a few frames of nurse bees into the new hive with the new queen cell and obviously split it with 4 frames of brood in the middle, 2 pollen frames beside those, and honey on the outsides frames.
-Now, you CAN move them to your front yard no problem, but definitely consider them as they grow and want to expand as well, you don't want to later have multiple hives in the front yard because maybe one season you got lazy and didn't want to relocate them (new splits) to a new location lol
-no need to box them in  lemon grass, a warm box, and brood will bring them to the new hive split naturally and most times they want to stay after catching scent of the new queen cell.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

gator75 said:


> I'm waiting for queen cells and then going taranov route I decided as I'm not looking for many more colonies. Will have a chance to OAV both as well with no capped brood.


have a brush, shaking QCs is bad karma.

GG


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

UtterParadise said:


> okay. Got it. Someone told me I should keep them far apart so they don’t swap diseases as easily 🤣 guessing that isn’t true. I wanted to move one hive to my front yard as a conversation piece to sell honey to clients seeing it and asking etc.


There is some truth to this robber bees spread diseases, mites, etc., but it doesn't matter much how far apart or close they are, they will find the vulnerable If I were you, I would seriously rethink about putting a hive in my front yard. Sounds like a good plan for conversations, until it is not, & all bee problems in the neighborhood become "your bees"=your problem. Liability of stings from people entering the yard to ring the bell & talk to you non stop everyday, etc. Plus there are a lot of easier ways to sell honey, without a hive in your front yard. BUT that's just me😁


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## UtterParadise (11 mo ago)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> There is some truth to this robber bees spread diseases, mites, etc., but it doesn't matter much how far apart or close they are, they will find the vulnerable If I were you, I would seriously rethink about putting a hive in my front yard. Sounds like a good plan for conversations, until it is not, & all bee problems in the neighborhood become "your bees"=your problem. Plus there are a lot of easier ways to sell honey, without a hive in your front yard. BUT that's just me😁


yeah. I bet you’re right. I don’t want people to go up to it and have no idea what they are doing. Very true. I’ll just split it in my back garden.


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## mobe_45 (Mar 14, 2015)

UtterParadise said:


> I’m in California Central Valley. I have never split before. One hive is booming. Bottom brood box is full of brood. At lease 8 frames. They have completely drawen out the top brood box with honey.
> 
> I live on a 3 acre property. I don’t have anywhere else to take them. Maybe I can ask a friend?
> 
> ...


I split and only move the split a few feet from the original. Some drift happens, if it gets to be too much, put the old hive in the new place during the day and the new split in the old location. Bees coming back with stores are accepted at any hive.


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## UtterParadise (11 mo ago)

Vance G said:


> You can do it this way on your property. Find your queen in the bottom box and put her, the frame she is on and two more frames of brood in a separate deep. Replace the removed frames in your brood box. Put a queen excluder over bottom queenless box and set your honey box on top of it and add a super. Put a queen excluder over the super and put the hive body/deep with the queen on top of the excluder on the super. Fill your top box with frames. I like to use good drawn brood combs but if you have lots of honey flow left, use foundation. The top box needs an entrance. I supply mine by boring a hole right below the handhold in the box. I like that entrance on the opposite side to the normal hive entrance.
> 
> The strong parent colony will produce a strong high quality emergency cell as they have all the resources. The queen on top with her small split heated by the colony below will keep right on laying and expand rapidly as the colony below will soon run out of open brood to rear and nurse bees will move up to the brood they smell above. If the flow is strong enough, you may need to add supers both bottom and top colonies. After thirty days. check for a mated laying queen in colony below. If you have one, just set the top colony on their own bottom board. If the colony below failed to requeen, Basically move the queenrite colony to the existting bottomboard and extract the bottom box as brood will have emerged and it will now be full of honey. You eliminate swarming and usually get an above average honey crop.


This is seriously such great advice. They only thing I forgot to ask you. Is since I want to take your advice here. When should I do this?
Like end of March? Or?

I’m in California Central Valley and Almond fields are in full bloom.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

UtterParadise said:


> This is seriously such great advice. They only thing I forgot to ask you. Is since I want to take your advice here. When should I do this?
> Like end of March? Or?
> 
> I’m in California Central Valley and Almond fields are in full bloom.


I don't know your area, but splits come down to drones. Are the drones flying in numbers yet? If so, you can probably split.


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## UtterParadise (11 mo ago)

Yes they are. Okay! Wow. Awesome!


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