# Homemade Oxalic Vaporizer



## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

All you need to do is sublimate the OA and blow it into the hive. there are a lot of different ways this can be done. I can't see why your method should'nt work. the only issue I see is the possibility of the OA resublimating on the wooden box. Your hair dryer idea should minimize this but mayby not b/c wood absorbs a lot of heat.

Have fun with it. I am on my 4th or 5th prototype now. I am getting a handle of what works and what dos'nt. I also am realizing how corrosive OA is. 

I also enjoy "inventing".


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Terry:

The one that you had in Saskatoon is which prototype? Have you gotten another one since?

Jean-Marc


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

that was prototype # 2. I have simplified the evapotator considerably since then. I found the Liquid OA to corrosive for me to deal with. The stuff eats stainless steel!!


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

sorry just doing some thinking it was prototype # 3


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Jean-Marc,

You sound concerned about our mite problem in BC. Do you think that our bees will be resistant to Check Mite soon? 

I also wanted to know if you only use one type of treatment on your mites or if you rotate between Apistan, Check Mite and Formic Acid?

How long do you think it will take before Oxalic Acid is approved in Canada?

Terry


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

OA sould be registered for use this year sometime. 

Check mite is a harsh chemical. I only used it one year. the quality and longevity of the queens that I purchased is realy going down hill, I believe that this is all due to the checkmite residue in the wax of the hive.

OA is simple and cheap to use, and just as effective.


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Thanks Terry,
Has there been research done on the long term effects of Check Mite on queens? If so, do you know where I could read about it?

Is it better to use Formic Acid instead of Check Mite until OA is available here?

BTW I've been reading Allen Dicks site since 2002. I've learned alot from his site...is he still into his cows?









Terry


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

he is considering buying some packages again this year, still has his cows I believe. 

I do not know of any research being done on the queens. With the amount of queens that come from Califorinia to our farm I am noticing a definate decrease in the quality and longevity. We culled a lot of hives this past fall before winter that had new queens in them. We blame it on checkmite use. Other large commercial beekeepers in our area have noticed the same thing.

I would use Formic till the fall, and then use OA wether or not it is registered for use. No one is going to slap your wrist for useing a natural product.


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## GreenMountainRose (Sep 6, 2004)

Vermont has pulled the registration of Checkmite+ for this year. One has to wonder if there is more to this story than what is being said in this report:

http://www.vtbeekeepers.org/2005report.htm


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Happy Easter everyone!
Easter dinner is simple (Lamb, asparagus, key lime
pie...) so we have little to do while the lamb
marinades all day. Somewhere between 16 and 18
coming to dinner, but here I am reading posts.









> One has to wonder if there is more to this story 
> than what is being said in this report.

Well, you are a Vermont beekeeper, so the state
apiarist can't refuse to explain his rationale
to you, can he? Unless beekeepers tell him that
they MUST have CheckMite to keep their colonies
alive, I can see many good reasons to avoid an
organophosphate.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I would use Formic till the fall, and then use 
> OA wether or not it is registered for use. No 
> one is going to slap your wrist for useing a 
> natural product.

That's an interesting point of view, but one that I
can't agree with. 

In regard to formic acid, while I am aware that at
least Allen Dick's vanity web site and Bill
Ruzicka's MiteGone web site give the impression
that using industrial grade formic acid in
beehives is OK, are you even aware that "food-grade"
formic acid exists?

I dunno why Canada has not realized how blatantly
inappropriate this is when beehive uses are
inherently "food use" of a chemical, and cracked
down on this. Heather Clay (CHC) claims that no
one in Canada would be dumb enough to use anything
but food grade formic, but anyone who reads either
Allen's or the MiteGone web sites is given the
impression that the industrial grade is somehow
viewed as "legal" by some beekeepers. I'm
surprised that Canadian honey has not been banned
as "adulterated" worldwide, simply due to the
exposure to non-food-grade formic acid.

Yes, I am well aware of the very low levels of
things like heavy metals in industrial grade
formic acid, the dilution factors, and the
vaporization process. Technical details are
not the point. The point is that one simply
does not use a non-food-grade substance in
"close contact" with food of any sort when
a food-grade version of the same substance is
available. To do so is inherently "adulteration",
and the food cannot be sold for human consumption
in either the US or Canada. If you try to hide
or somehow remove the "contamination", you are
guilty of a federal crime in both countries.

Like, duh, why do you THINK they call it "food
grade formic acid"?









In regard to Oxalic, I am certainly aware of the
success reported in European and Canadian studies,
but once again, honey is FOOD, for Pete's sake,
and Oxalic is a DEADLY POISON. Without regulatory
approval, your use puts us all at risk of an
investigative journalist doing an "expose" that
results in yet another "honey scare". The oxalic
acid you can find is not "natural" at all. It
is made in massive chemical plants, and would
only become "legal" with specific approvals and
a specific "pesticide label" for beekeeping use
in both Canada and the USA.

So, please, don't blow it for those of us who
are working to convince the regulators that
these chemicals should be officially permitted
for use in beehives, and want to continue to
sell our honey to even paranoid "health nuts".


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

Where do you get food grade Formic, and what's it used for normally? If you're trying to get oxalic registered, it can't be that bad can it? What are the residues like in honey?


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

First I have never heard of Food Grade Formic and I have been using the stuf for the last 15 years. I don't believe that I can go to the grocery store and purchase formic acid. I don't believe that there is such a thing as food grade Formic

If someone told me that vaporizing rubarb leaves would kill mites just as well I would use it instead of industrial OA just because it is more organic.

I am not suprised that American honey was or still is banned from Europe due to Residues of various substances.

We in Canada are very cautious in what we apply to our hives. We depend on our export markets and the reputaion of our honey.

I do not agree with the use of Tylosine for the control of AFB or even oxytet. But right now, we have no choice.

I do not agree with the use of checkmite, Apistan, Bayvarol, and Amitras, for the control of mites. I am suprised that people are still eating honey because of all the stuff beekeepers around the world have dumped into thier hives.

We finaly have 1 product OXALIC ACID. Which is natuarly occuring in honey anyway. Which is proven to be harmless to bees if applied correctly. What upsets me is the lenght of time it takes to register a product. Same thing with your Bee Quick in Canada. - My brother made a few phone calls and sent a few emails finaly got PMRA looking at your product -.

I beleive that every thing boils down to common sense, and willing to stick out your neck in support of a product. No one wants to beheld responsible for registering any product just in case it might prove to have a negative. 

I have a buisness to mainaintain, and if I wait for the beurocracy to aprove products in an emergancy situation, I would be out of buisness. The beekeeping industry is a small and niche industry, Governments tend to ignore us and our problems. We need to work together and be proactive in solving the different problems that we encounter in our industry.

I also want to have my hives as healthy and I want my honey to be absolutly clean and free of all foreign products.

I will only apologise for the improper use of the word "Natural" I should have used "normaly occurring" or something along those lines


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Terry, the fact you don't believe in it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's not sold in grocery stores but used by food processors. I agree with you 100% on the concept that if we wait for the Gov't to solve our problems we will all be out out of business. Too many times the the guy who has a couple hudred or a thousand dollars invested in an operation points the long bony finger of indignation at guys who have their life savings in their operation for not following protocal. They aren't advisarys or bad, just looking at it from a different perspective. I bet you, like me, and many others, spend a considerable amount of time keeping up with reading on the leading edge of scientifically done research. We have a great interest in protecting ours, and the industries reputations and our livelhoods. Unfortunatley there are always a few out there willing to cast doubt on our lot as a whole by abusing what when properly applied could be safe and effective. Despite your derogatory remarks about American Beekeepers I'd bet pound for pound you have just as many in Canada. You just have a lot less beekeepers, probably due to climate. I don't believe crossing the border makes us inherrently bad or you inherrently good! I find it is usually best to leave the high white horse, we all ride sometimes, in the barn when trying to communicate.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Uh oh, looks like I touched a sensitive nerve...
Sorry about that, I meant no harm. Tryin' to help.

But I can't resist poking some fun at the outraged
reaction to what was clearly intended to be a "heads up"
on an issue that is certain to bite us all in the rear.

So, here goes... all of this is supposed to be >>FUNNY<<
so laugh, and realize that I don't have a mean bone in
my body...

> First I have never heard of Food Grade Formic 

Well, maybe you have heard of www.google.com ,
or heard of Heather Clay of the CHC.
Sounds like you need to check one or the other,
and buy a vowel.









> and I have been using the stuf for the last 15 years. 

Yeah, like I said, it is depressing how clueless 
even good beekeepers are about this specific issue.

> I don't believe that I can go to the grocery store and 
> purchase formic acid. 

That's not where food grade formic acid would be sold,
of course.

> I don't believe that there is such a thing as food grade Formic

I'm not going to argue the point. Not only does it exist, but
it is what should be used in beehives. Don't listen to me,
ask your own regulatory folks.

> If someone told me that vaporizing rubarb leaves would kill mites 
> just as well I would use it instead of industrial OA just because 
> it is more organic.

If someone told me that they had some leaves they wanted to vaporize,
I'd worry about the impact on my next security clearance drug test! 
Oh, wait a moment, you said rhubarb... never mind.









> I am not suprised that American honey was or still is banned from 
> Europe due to Residues of various substances.

Oh, please. Drop the nationalistic chest pounding. You are nearly 
as bad as that fellow we still wonder if we really elected or not, 
and he's a real embarrassment to western civilization as a whole.








We are beekeepers, let's have fun and be buddies. There's much
more demand for honey than either the US or Canada can ever 
provide, so it is not like the countries "compete" for sales.

> We in Canada are very cautious in what we apply to our hives. 

Apparently so, except when it comes to basic issues like using 
food-grade formic, rather than the stuff that has unacceptable
levels of heavy metals and other toxins.

> We depend on our export markets and the reputaion of our honey.

As a citizen of the country that is forced to accept most of Canada's
subsidized exports, I have to point out that Canadian honey is never 
found in the US without something else being blended with it to mask 
the (ahem) "flavor profile" of canola honey. The non-canola Canadian 
honey is fine stuff, if you can find it. I suspect you keep all of the 
non-canola honey for domestic sale, which is understandable.









> I do not agree with the use of Tylosine for the control of AFB or even oxytet. 
> But right now, we have no choice.

Me, I like using a match to control AFB. Its organic-certified!









> We finaly have 1 product OXALIC ACID. 
> Which is natuarly occuring in honey anyway. 

In such trace amounts as to be undetectable in the bulk of honey,
and in a very different form from the Oxalic formulation you would
use to "treat" a colony. Take a chemistry course, and call me 
when you are done, as you may then have better arguments.









> Which is proven to be harmless to bees if applied correctly. 

Clearly so, but I am worried about the PR impact of using something
that is labeled POISON. Not the practical impact, just the PR impact,
moreso when the use of the product is without official endorsement.

> What upsets me is the lenght of time it takes to register a product. 

What upsets me is people who think that the process is so slow - look
at Mite-Away, which sailed through the EPA in less than a year from
start to finish, and seems to also be making fine progress with PMRA.

> Same thing with your Bee Quick in Canada. - My brother made a few phone 
> calls and sent a few emails finaly got PMRA looking at your product.

Oh, then the Eastern Apicultural Society owes him a "thank you".
I thought that he was just ONE of several hundred people who had
asked me about Canadian availability over the past 5 years, and 
was advised that he needed to check with the PMRA, and ask them why 
they had the crazy idea that it was a pesticide of some sort.

We only sell Bee-Quick where it is enthusiastically welcomed by
both beekeepers and regulators. That means the bulk of the entire 
planet, except for Canada. To be honest, I'm not even sure that 
Canadian sales would even offset the cost of printing up a bilingual 
label, which would be impolite to not do, even if we were not 
specifically "required". In other words, I'm not sure Canada is
worth the trouble and expense.

> No one wants to beheld responsible for registering any product just 
> in case it might prove to have a negative.

Everything that kills mites "has a negative". That's obvious.
You can't kill one bug, and somehow not affect the other.

> I have a buisness to mainaintain, and if I wait for the beurocracy to 
> aprove products in an emergancy situation, I would be out of buisness. 

If you don't "wait" for approval, then you will be not only "out of
business", but perhaps also fined, threatened with
jail time, and so on.

Declaring your own emergency, and deciding on your own course of
action without a consensus is the sort of thinking that ends up
with you hiding in the woods, wearing camouflage, and stocking
a stash of automatic weapons to fight off an RCMP swat team.









> The beekeeping industry is a small and niche industry, Governments tend 
> to ignore us and our problems. We need to work together and be proactive 
> in solving the different problems that we encounter in our industry.

I am really impressed with the change of heart at the PMRA as expressed
at the February meeting in Saskatchewan. They had their act together,
and even had beekeeper issues sorted out on lists that made sense!
I think that the PMRA has "matured" amazingly from where they were 5
years ago. I think you CAN "work with them". Regardless, you have
no choice if you want to "remain in business".


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Antero:

I am worried about varroa mites becoming resistant to checkmite. It has been used in the Valley for 3 years. The Americans had resistance show up after 3 seasons both on the East coast and now the west coast. I see no reason why we should not expect similar problems.

I use some formic for tracheal mites. I usually monitor levels once a year. Stopped using Apistan when it stopped working. I tried trickling oxalic
acid on my nucs this past fall. I'll monitor varroa levels soon.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Jim:

What is this subsidy you speak of in regards to Canadian honey? I know Alberta and now Quebec have a crop insurance program, but the rest of us pollinate, produce honey etc... with our own nickels.

Jean-Marc


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I know Alberta and now Quebec have a crop 
> insurance program, but the rest of us pollinate, 
> produce honey etc... with our own nickels.

I was not claiming that Canada has any direct
subsidy for beekeepers, I was referring to all
the OTHER exports that DO have subsidies of
one sort or another. I realize that beekeepers
everywhere are constantly not given the respect
of cattle ranchers or dairymen, mostly because
our livestock is so small and so terrifying to
the typical civilian.

Crop insurance is not a subsidy. Here in the
US, there is work underway to try and get some
crop insurance for beekeepers, but it looks like
it will be a private insurance program rather
than a government thing. As for me, I am
working hard on my own "crop insurance" by
experimenting with Japanese Hornfaced bees
for apple pollination. If I can use them on
apples, my colonies get less stress, and are
better able to produce a crop as a result.

But the "alternative bees" are a whole 'nother
bug to learn to manage, so it is not for everyone.
I see them as a way to be able to deploy less
honey bee colonies per orchard, and still get
the job done at the same level of excellence.
I don't see it as a 100% replacement, I see it
as a way for both the grower and myself to
"hedge our bets" and have a "backup system",
where both types of bees are used.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Good points Jim regarding the alternative pollinators. I truly believe one of the reason losses were so heavy this year is because we confine 10's of thousands of colonies of bees in a 450 mile stretch of almonds in California for several weeks a year. We then scatter these bees to the winds of migration. Although I have no scientific evidence any time you overpopulate an area with a species natures takes it's course. Disease and pests in overpopulated areas spread and mutate quicker as a result. I know your point is relating to the stress on the hives, I'm just adding to that.


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

There have certainly been suggestions - I'm not sure whether it's any more than that - that TM is related to hive density. If this is correct, who knows what other problems may also be related?


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I agree that the almond groves are the grand
central station of the USA for diseases and
pests, but this year, the losses appear to be
not significantly greater than they have been
in prior years in recent history.

Attempts to verify the rumors of excessive and
unusual losses have resulted in an understanding
that reports of disaster are greatly exaggerated.
Problem is, stories like this take on a life of
their own, regardless of the ever-growing pile
of information refuting the rumors.

The basic "problem" in my view is that the Almond
growers have been expanding their planted acreage
every year, and the number of bee colonies
available for pollination has not GROWN to keep
pace with the acreage expansion. The growers
don't want to admit that even $125 per colony
is a bargain for them given the price of
almonds, so they cry about the "shortage" of
bee colonies. 

They also don't want to admit that their
traditional (and current) method of contracting
for pollination, involving playing off one beekeeper 
against another until one of them underbids the 
other in desperation, is simply unsustainable in 
addition to being unethical.

The net result of their predatory tactics against
a group of beekeepers who are absolutely
mission-critical to almond growing is that in
times of higher honey prices, beekeepers simply
"stay home", don't pollinate almonds, and focus
on making a honey crop. 

Perhaps some beekeepers use the excuse "my losses
were too high" to get out of a commitment, or to
allow them to break a contract that locked them
in at a $30 per-hive price, and offer their
services to another almond grower at $100 a hive.
But even without people gaming the system, the 
beekeepers are perfectly willing to play along
with this little con-game, as a "crisis" most
often prompts the USDA to notice that beekeepers
exist, have problems, and get little or none of
the support given to most other segments of 
agriculture.

So, the rumors continue to fly, and the agenda
of those spreading the rumors is unclear, but
most of the actual "proposed solutions" involve
the movement of money, rather than the movement
of bees, the movement of alternative miticides
to the EPA "approved" list, and the movement
of beekeeping from "ignored" to "supported with
enthusiasm" on the USDA's to-do list.

Money has a habit of being allocated, but never
being enough to achieve a tangible milestone.
What we need is firm commitments to achive
the mission-critical milestones, regardless of 
effort required, regardless of the price tag.

It has never happened before, and I have doubts 
that this will happen this time around either.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Yea, that makes sense. I hadn't thought about the behind the scenes wrangling that goes on. Like all things it usually comes down to the money. The use of alternative bees may be the wave of the future for pollination. I've read some on the managment and it seems pretty straight forward. Although we don't pollinate, as our focus is retail honey sales, I think it is good that there are a few pioneers out there pushing the envelope. Ultimately more choices will help everyone priotize. I run a business and understand the almighty dollar but there seem to be too many out there ready to take the quick buck and sacrifice the long term goals. I am building a business I hope to pass on to my now 14 yr old son. That makes things look a little different.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> The use of alternative bees may be the wave 
> of the future for pollination. I've read some 
> on the managment and it seems pretty straight 
> forward.

This is only because the management problems
are not really well-understood, due to a lack
of people trying to actually "manage" these
alternative bees. About the best reference
to the pests, predators, and diseases that
impact "alternative bees" is Fabre's 1914 book,
"The Mason Bees". So, if you can read French,
or can find a translated edition, you can get
a feel for the range of threats, but his
observations are related in a very rambling
narrative of several hundred pages, and much
of it may not even be accurate/appropriate
outside of France.

So, the problems are simply different, and
perhaps no less intractable than they are
with honeybees, and to make matters worse,
there is a near-complete lack of what might
be called "useful science" to assist the
prospective breeder/pollinator. But hedging
one's pollination bet with two bees just has
to be tried in real-world commercial orchards.

Step one is "can the nests be moved before
the eggs mature into larvae, or will the
eggs become dislodged from their pollen
'beds', and die of starvation before maturing?"
Orchardists are gonna spray no matter what,
so either I figure out how to move the bees,
or I am forced to sacrifice 100% of the bees
(and their prospective progeny) that I deploy
as pollinators.

It may take a few years to work it all out,
but as I said, I like to hedge my bets, and
my apple growers agree that it is worth the
trouble to give it a try.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Well best of luck Jim. It sounds like developing a whole new protocol. You seem like the type to follow through. Keep us posted as it sounds interesting, a whole new set of challenges! Most great things happen when someone is willing to break from the herd and strike out for new horizons.


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## Duality (Mar 25, 2005)

Funny but my question turned into a discussion on a different subject but anyway I opened the thread so Ill close it with,,,,,,,,,A coffee heating element works fine in a suitable wood housing with an inlet port for a hair dryer and an outlet slot to mount against the entrance slot. I made a cover out of lexan so as to watch the crystals turn to vapor. On top of the heating element I bolted a 5 inch diameter plate of steel to give the thing some thermal mass. Also moved the bimetallic sensor used to turn the heating coil on/off, onto the plate. (If left on the heating element it turned the heater off prematurely) Gave my hives a fogging tonight and it completely filled the boxes and watched as fog rolled out from under the top cover. No doubt it would be easy to just buy a fogger but hay, not as much satisfaction. BTW, the fog from the crystals is nasty,nasty stuff. Be careful.


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