# Lets talk about Long Lang Hives



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm looking for some feed back from everyone that has currently or have had in the past Long Lang Hives.

I'm looking at building a few of them (probably about 10 or so) this winter.
The plan is to use some heavier wood (as in 2x12 stock) to build the main hive body.
This will prevent the hives from bowing and twisting as the thinner stock would.
These hives will be each attached to legs that put the hive's top at waist height for ease of working the hives.
They will have several small migratory lids that can be opened independantly to work that particular part of the frames.
The hives will have 4 openings, spaced to be centered under each of 4 migratory lids.
Enabling me to split the hives easily by inserting divider boards and change hive from 1 up to 4, 5 frame NUC hives in the end.
At any point that I need more than the 25 frames in the hives, I can add a super with no problems.

With this setup in mind, the things that I'd like to hear from everyone is in your hives that you have managed, does your bees tend to build up as fast or faster then those in the standard Lang Hives?

What do you see with my planned setup that could potentially be a pittfall?

How does your hives winter in your Long Langs?

Any other thoughts you may want to include?

Thanks to all for your input on this ahead of time...


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## Bee Whisperer (Mar 24, 2013)

I'll have to get back to you as it is late here, but this one has been successful thus far.


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## LoneWolf (Feb 25, 2014)

I built one long lang last winter. So far so good. It seems the bees in my long lang built up faster and strong than my regular hives. They also produced more honey. Won't know about over wintering until spring.

My hive is double walled with 2" insulation between the walls. The hive is actually 2 hives in the same box with 24 standard deep frames per side for a total of 48. There is a follower board on each side that can be used to separate a split or nuc with separate entrances. It accepts regular lang supers on each end and has 2 other sections that are removable for working the hive.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

LoneWolf - You mention yours had produced more honey for you, would you care to elaborate compared to your standard langs as to how much better?


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## LoneWolf (Feb 25, 2014)

Both hives in the long filled 2 supers each and started a 3rd. My other two hives, one hive filled almost 2 supers and the other hive did not quite fill one super. All 4 hives were new packages in new equipment the first of May. All 4 were fed syrup until first week of July.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

LoneWolf said:


> Both hives in the long filled 2 supers each and started a 3rd. My other two hives, one hive filled almost 2 supers and the other hive did not quite fill one super. All 4 hives were new packages in new equipment the first of May. All 4 were fed syrup until first week of July.


Very interesting.  

Has anyone else had similar outcomes with their long lang hives?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@LoneWolf:

You have one of the most ship-shape apiaries I have ever seen. I especially admire your fence.

What sort of winter configuration does your LL hive have now? Does it have any supers above the main box? 

I am also interested in the permanent side-wall insulation. I use both internal and external insulation panels from September to end of May. And I have wondered what the effects of leaving insulation on during the summer months might be. Not, of course, to keep the hives warm, but to stabilize the internal temps from the huge swings they get on long sunny summer days.

Also do your bees tend to center their brood nest at the midpoint between the side holes and the end holes? Where do you think they are now? Any issues with having to defend against robbing at twice as many locations? 

Enj?


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

enjambres said:


> @LoneWolf:
> 
> You have one of the most ship-shape apiaries I have ever seen.
> Enj?


Amen that!

@LoneWolf:

One of the photos of your long lang has a superstructure that I do not understand. Is that essentially an outer cover? We all have a lot of questions, don't we. 

Phil


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Subscribed.

I'm building two of these this winter. I'm all eyes to these posts.

I will be using rigid-lam 2" x 12" pieces for the construction of the boxes.....Does anybody know the optimum width of these horizontal hives? 

Considering using one of these boxes to house breeder queen(s).


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

There are free plans and dimensions on one of Beesource's advertisers. http://horizontalhive.com


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm building mine to do double duty. They will be production hives for the normal season, then break down into 4-5frame nuc's for the winter. They are going to be made from 2x12 stock just like the ones from the above mentioned link. Total length is 38.5 inches, total width is 21.375 inches. They will hold 25 deep frames with space at each end for manipulations, have 4 separate migratory tops to allow for fewer open areas while checking the hive, and will be able to have supers put on for the flow if needed. 

Then come harvest time, i'll pull the crop, take out 5 frames and the queen put into another NUC, then put in dividers to turn the rest into 4 queenless NUC's that I will put a queen cell in the following day. If needed I will then super each NUC with a NUC body and 5 more frames. 

In a few days I should have the first one completely done and will take some pics and post them here for everyone to see.


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## dirt road (Jan 4, 2011)

drlonzo said:


> In a few days I should have the first one completely done and will take some pics and post them here for everyone to see.


I for one will be looking forward to your post.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

I also can't wait to see your effort. Your plan sounds great.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Just be kind when it comes to the color.. lol.. Forewarning, I paint with strange colors.. Free is my friend is my motto when it comes to paint.. lol 

Got the main body done today and painted, I should have the lids, feeder, and integrated hive stand done tomorrow and get some initial pics to show you all.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

I built one 48" long from 8/4 cedar when I first started four years ago.
It has wintered fine most years. 

Never been a boomer, but that could just be the bees in that happen to be in it. On average I would say it has confirmed for me the belief that bees work more effectively in the vertical.

It's handy to be able to use far end for split or nuc.

It tends to beard far more than my langs

The advantages of not lifting boxes are offset by the need to shuffle 25+ frames to make room for a manipulation in the front, or inspect some brood frames in the middle...that gets old fast, even faster when things get gummed up.

Supering the front half was reasonably effective in getting a decent honey crop. Other wise it was a lot of work to keep plenty of space available front and back during a flow.

Overall I like having it. But I won't build another unless my back gets worse.


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## LoneWolf (Feb 25, 2014)

@enjambres 

Thanks for the compliment. The hive currently has 1 super on each hive with a candy board above the super and then a quilt box on top. Just wanted to make sure they had plenty to eat since they were a new hive this year and had to draw out 25 deep and 20+ medium frames. I believe the insulation helps for summer just as it does for winter. It keeps the hive more regulated in temp without the high fluctuations in temps. Insulation works to keeps things warm as well as keep things cool (think beer cooler). The hives never bearded much. On the hottest days there might have been maybe 100 bees on the landing board, but many were coming and going. I do plan on getting a remote thermometer for next year and see what the temps are inside.

The bees do tend to stay centered in the frames. The first and last 2-3 frames seem to always have honey. No problem with robbing. At first I had issues as my center cover covers both hives so when I opened it, both hives were exposed. I now have two 1/4" pieces of plywood under my cover so I only expose one hive at a time when working it. I have no idea where they are clustered at the moment. I may go peek tomorrow since we were at 50 today.

@philip.devos

I think the piece you are talking about is my center cover. It has 2" of insulation in the center of it and plywood on both sides with metal flashing on the top of it. There are no ventilation holes in this cover. My air flow comes in the entrances and flows up through the supers or feeder where there is a regular inner and outer cover. The entrance holes are 1" PVC pipe so the bees can not get to the insulation and chew it. I use rubber corks to open or close off these entrances depending on the time of year and population.


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## gjt (Jul 24, 2014)

There is a thread here on "modified European long hives".

There are several links to various horizontal and "frankenstein" hives (i.e. hive that is both horizontal and vertical).


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

LoneWolf said:


> I built one long lang last winter. So far so good. It seems the bees in my long lang built up faster and strong than my regular hives. They also produced more honey. Won't know about over wintering until spring.
> 
> My hive is double walled with 2" insulation between the walls. The hive is actually 2 hives in the same box with 24 standard deep frames per side for a total of 48. There is a follower board on each side that can be used to separate a split or nuc with separate entrances. It accepts regular lang supers on each end and has 2 other sections that are removable for working the hive.
> 
> ...


That is a nice looking setup! I am going to copy your design, and make it into several deep nucs. Also, does that metal roofing fence help as a windbreak? My bees are high in elevation for WV, and the wind never seems to let up.


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## LoneWolf (Feb 25, 2014)

The reason for the fence is to stop the wind as there is an open field behind the fence and even 2" of snow in the field would make my yard 2' deep or more when the wind blew the snow in. It also stops most critters from getting in as I raise turkeys, chickens and ducks. The wind here always blows. I live in a high desert at 4543' and have had winds as high as 93 mph here. The fence works great for the bees as it is 6.5' tall.


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## Bee Whisperer (Mar 24, 2013)

LoneWolf; that is stellar! I too will be using much of what you have done there. Thank you for sharing this. It seems you are onto something very nice here. 

drlonzo; please post photos of yours as well. Sounds smart.


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## LoneWolf (Feb 25, 2014)

My next project will be to build a Modified European Long Hive like in the other thread and add some of my ideas from the one I built. The idea behind the new modified LL is to use it for splits, nucs and maybe queen rearing. I plan on making it 2 frames high and 24 frames wide. There will be 6 separate areas with separate entrances. Each section will have 8 frames, 4 up, 4 down.

Edit: Frames, not deeps.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

LoneWolf said:


> My next project will be to build a Modified European Long Hive like in the other thread and add some of my ideas from the one I built. The idea behind the new modified LL is to use it for splits, nucs and maybe queen rearing. I plan on making it 2 deeps high and 24 deeps wide. There will be 6 separate areas with separate entrances. Each section will have 8 frames, 4 up, 4 down.


That's not a long hive, that's a ..........HOTEL!


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

I built a few years back, they did fine and wintered well. I made them the 3 supers long and made 3 inner covers the same size. then I could put supers straight up from any of the 3 positions. so they were basically 30 frames long. just had to get creative on how to keep rain from dripping in the gap


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Horizontal beehives are very popular in Eastern Europe, Ukraine and Russia in perticular. They used really deep frames (deeper that am. deep), 20-30 frames per box. They usally have double- walls from relatively thin planks and they are not movable. As far as I can understand, winter loss is ~5%. 10% winter loss is considered to be a disaster and essentially, such beekeeper can not keep bees. Russian long beehives produce up to 200 kilos per season/hive (personal communication from Russian beekeeper), average 100 kilos. When compare productivity, we need to count the total frame surface in the hive. 

I have one long hive, which is 2x deep Lang (20 frames). Bees love it! I like it too. The problem is that it is too short. It should be 30 frames. Bees are much calmer in long hive; very easy to work with it.


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## LoneWolf (Feb 25, 2014)

I just installed a temp sensor in my LL. Outside temp is 31F. Inside hive temp is 85F! Never expected the inside to be so warm. When I looked in the entrance I had bees staring back at me only 1" from the entrance. I slid the temp probe into the entrance under the frames and back into the hive about 14". I may need to open a few entrance holes to keep things cool.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Anybody made 2" thick walled standard Langstroths? By "standard", I refer to the inside dimensions of either 8- or 10-frame deep or medium boxes. I like the idea for the depth of the "smile" handles. If the additional insulation helps considerably in winter, I'll start making some. The joints should last a long time, too.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

kilocharlie said:


> Anybody made 2" thick walled standard Langstroths? By "standard", I refer to the inside dimensions of either 8- or 10-frame deep or medium boxes. I like the idea for the depth of the "smile" handles. If the additional insulation helps considerably in winter, I'll start making some. The joints should last a long time, too.


I've not got any as of yet, however I may make a few myself this spring to test with my long langs. The R value is only 2 on a standard 1.5 inch thick board, but if a person were to use the 2" thick blue dow board as Lone Wolf has and then adhere a thin slab of plywood to the outside, you could easily have a box with an R value of say nearly 11. That's one of the reasons that LoneWolf's boxes are holding temp so great. 

Myself, I want to know from LoneWolf how they are doing with the winter stores. Are they burning through them or barely touching the stores?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Here's my Long hive:
http://daveybees.wikidot.com/longhive3x

Just place 3 boxes side by side to work out measurements.

I have a sheet of vinyl on top, held down with some bricks to stop the rain getting in.

You do not need to move all the frames across to get to the middle frames. Just leave a bit of a gap every five frames or so. The comb may be wider at the top on these frames, but only the first inch or so, then normal width for brood cells lower down. Lift these frames out first.


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## LoneWolf (Feb 25, 2014)

drlonzo said:


> Myself, I want to know from LoneWolf how they are doing with the winter stores. Are they burning through them or barely touching the stores?


So far it looks like they have barely touched their stores. 

This morning the outside temp was 29F and the hive temp was 48F. This seems more reasonable. I think the cluster must have been on the probe last night. This now brings up the question of where is the best place to put the probe?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So far it looks like they have barely touched their stores. 

They won't burn through much of their stores until they start rearing brood. They they go through stores quickly.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

kilocharlie said:


> Anybody made 2" thick walled standard Langstroths? By "standard", I refer to the inside dimensions of either 8- or 10-frame deep or medium boxes. I like the idea for the depth of the "smile" handles. If the additional insulation helps considerably in winter, I'll start making some. The joints should last a long time, too.


I made mine with 1 inch foam sandwiched between regular 1x lumber, RF value of 7. I will probably work on a redesign next year as this one was kind of pricey to make, but they overwintered better than any hive I had through the harshest winter I can remember last year with no supplemental food. I got them booming last year and pulled a deep worth of honey off them and should have pulled more but a lot of frames had brood in the center because I didn't keep up with pulling and adding new frames. They only ever bearded when the population got too large for the hive late summer (didn't swarm though). I should have put metal on the roof, (still need to in fact), the spar urethane I used only lasted a season on the top. This is an older pick I posted some time ago when it looked prettier than it does now with a weathered top.

http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/cusickje/library/Coffin Hive?sort=3&page=1


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## gjt (Jul 24, 2014)

Works of art Mr. Davey. Works of art.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

LoneWolf said:


> This morning the outside temp was 29F and the hive temp was 48F. This seems more reasonable. I think the cluster must have been on the probe last night. This now brings up the question of where is the best place to put the probe?


I had the same thing happen in one of my hives when I dropped the wire sensor into where I knew the brood nest was. Temps were at 85 degrees for 3 hrs and now they are just 15 degrees above the ambient temperature. I figured the girls were just checking thing out when I first put it in the hive. That sensor still reads consistently higher than the other wire sensors I have in my other hives. 

I guess placement is all relative. I know which hives have the sensor wires hanging in between brood nest bars and which ones are in honey comb. This being my first year measuring hive temperatures relative to the outside temps, it's more a matter of curiosity than actual science (and I have to keep resetting the remote receiver as the wireless signal gets lost between my hives and the house). It has been a very interesting exercise though.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

LoneWolf said:


> This now brings up the question of where is the best place to put the probe?


Others may want to answer that question, I'll skip..........


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## Buzzsaw2012 (Feb 1, 2012)

i might have to try one of these behemoths if my indoor wintering shed doesn't work to keep them over winter.


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## LoneWolf (Feb 25, 2014)

My insulated long Lang is = 1 live colony, 1 dead. The dead out I think was to do with the mites since I did not treat and also I found snow had blown in from a crack they did not seal where the super goes on. The other side is doing great so far. I have been watching the temp inside and it has been bouncing between 35 and 85. It was -17 last week overnight and the hive stayed above freezing. My regular Lang stays with in 2 degrees of ambient temp, but those bees are doing fine also. Can't wait to see my new one I just built go through winter next year. Pretty much like 5 double nucs combined into one box.


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## BuzzinBee (Feb 5, 2013)

Has anyone ever incorporated a flip down or slide in bottom that could be removed to expose a screen bottom board for powder sugar dusting varroa control? 
If so, how were the results?
It looks like this type of hive would make inspection so much easier.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

BuzzinBee said:


> Has anyone ever incorporated a flip down or slide in bottom that could be removed to expose a screen bottom board for powder sugar dusting varroa control?
> If so, how were the results?
> It looks like this type of hive would make inspection so much easier.


My topbar hive kit from Beeline apiaries has a screened bottom and a slide in solid IPM board that is bee tight. I think that is probably what you are looking for in the long Lang. Just staple the #8 screen across the bottom of the hive. Then use 1x2 strips to build the channel that the Masonite board slides in. A small shim on the top of the side of the board that slides in/out will keep it bee tight. I can get you photos of how it's done in the TBH if needed.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Has anyone ever incorporated a flip down or slide in bottom that could be removed to expose a screen bottom board for powder sugar dusting varroa control? 

I did. I did not think it was worth it. I don't do it anymore.


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## NickAdams314 (May 19, 2016)

Hi Everyone,

I have been reading this forum for a couple of weeks and really enjoy it and have learned a lot. This is my first post.

I tried keeping bees for about three years back in the late 90's, and enjoyed it, but but got wiped out by mites and gave up. Giving it another go this year, and built a horizontal langstroth, basically just because I thought the design was interesting.

I am glad to see some of you are having good luck with them!

I did build a screened bottom board into mine, with a solid floor about half an inch below it, and a hinged little door that you can open to slide in sticky boards. So the bottom of the hive is fully enclosed.

Definitely too early for me to have an opinion on its efficacy, but it did add considerably to the complexity of construction. 

The little door also does not seal super tight against the hive wall, so there is a bit of air leakage (and light, too) coming in the crack of the door. So I am trying to figure out a good way to seal the cracks around the door before winter comes along...


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