# The trouble with Russians



## DaBadMan (Sep 25, 2014)

So I'd like to start my first colony in spring. I'd really like to start with Russians for all of the reasons that people like russians. I'd like to start them in "The People's Hive".

I'm having a heck of a time locating a supplier who will ship me a 3 lbs package in the spring though. Some don't ship, others won't have the russians at the time and still others will only sell me a nuc. =/

I talked with a local man today who suggested getting a package of Italians and re-queening as soon as I can get one of the Russian queens. 

My question is simple. Is it wise for a first timer to re-queen over Italians in a Warré hive at the beginning of his very first season? 

Thoughts, comments, ideas, contacts all welcome and greatly appreciated.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Requeening a hive from Italian to Russian has it's own set of problems. If you don't make sure they are totally without any eggs to make a new queen from, the Italians will try their best to make new queens even while your Russian queen is in the hive getting to know them pheromone wise. So then you would have to be ready to take each and every frame out of the hive at least every 4 days for about a week to ensure that the bees didn't try to make a queen cell. Basically you would have to rid them of it. Then, once they can't make another cell and your new queen is loose and laying things will be ok after a while. You see the Russian queens have not only a diff pheromone they also have a weaker one. So the bees in the hive being Italian will tend to be less at ease for a while. Once enough of the old queen's young have emerged it will get better though and settle right down. Then the new queen's brood starts entering the work force and the hive gets real docile at that point. 

I've done many of these requeening from Italian to Russian, and those are my experiences with it. Also, it takes a full 5 days in the hive for the new Russian queens to be accepted by the Italian bees. 

If you are looking for a straight up Russian Package, using Russian bees, It may be prudent to speak directly with Steven Coy at The Coy's Honey Farm. Large Certified Russian Honey Bee Breeder. He may make and exception and shake a package for you. If not, send me a PM and we'll talk more about it.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

My biased opinion is that a first time beek is well served by starting with Carniolans. One gains most of the supposed advantages of Russians and they are docile little kittens with wings for the most part. Russians and the outcrosses when they supercede tend to be a little rough in my limited experience. Enjoy your bees whatever kind you get.


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## AugustC (Aug 7, 2013)

I would say it depends!

Many believe that italians are the best choice for Warré hives anyway because they are prolific comb builders. HOWEVER, if you are going to manage the Warré hive using Warré principles then surely you will not be practicing swarm control and the point very quickly becomes moot as the queen will mate with every neighbourhood Johnny come lately.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Whatever source of packages you ultimately decide on, you want to make sure that conditions are good for queen mating in the area the packages come from. Many beekeepers want bees in the spring before good mating conditions exist - which is one reason why you're running into problems finding early Russian packages. An other reason is that not all that many Russian breeders/growers put up packages; some focusing on queens alone. If you are bound and determined to start in spring, find yourself a package of just about any breed and plan to requeen them with a purebred mated Russian Queen in June. Six-Seven weeks later, all of the bees in the hive will be the offspring of the new queen.

Changing races when requeening can at times be tricky. Know how you want to proceed ahead of time.

Good luck!


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

DaBadMan said:


> I'm having a heck of a time locating a supplier who will ship me a 3 lbs package in the spring though. Some don't ship, others won't have the russians at the time and still others will only sell me a nuc. =/


Kelley's had russian packages last spring, have you checked with them yet?

https://www.kelleybees.com/Shop/19/...0&all=0&_suid=1411650102915023785019643100574


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

There is not much difference in the cost of a package and a NUC. Get the Nuc and have a better chance of success.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

dsegrest said:


> There is not much difference in the cost of a package and a NUC. Get the Nuc and have a better chance of success.


NOT MUCH DIFFERENCE? OK!!!!!

On an average nucs are 40 to 50 % above the costs of a package across the US. Personally not looking to pay 75 thousand dollars for a 45 thousand dollar truck myself. Same with nucs. 

Its true nucs have a few conveniences to them but they do have drawbacks as well. Many beyond the extra cash outlay. 

Your definition of success would be nice to know. IME the honey production on packages outdoes a nuc 9 out of 10 times when properly cared for. 

As to why anyone would insist on Russians after all the data showing their faults I am at a loss as to why the average Joe would even touch them???


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

DaBadMan said:


> I'd really like to start with Russians for all of the reasons that people like russians .


What are those reasons?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Where shall we start. Below are a few wonderful attributes of true Russian stock:

1. Meaner than a son of a gun. 
2. Like to test the wind more often than........ . 
3. Will not survive without treatments as "advertised."
4. Lower honey production than equally cared for counterparts.
4. Etc........


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Honey-4-All said:


> Where shall we start. Below are a few wonderful attributes of true Russian stock:
> 
> 1. Meaner than a son of a gun.
> 2. Like to test the wind more often than........ .
> ...


You left out:
5. Virtually impossible to requeen
6. Very dynamic population size requires greater management
7. Meaner than the junkyard dog
8. Meaner than the 5th grade bully
9. Meaner than a Marine that missed "last call"
(insert your comparison here) ....


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Thanks for the confirmation JW. After dealing with them many years it is my current stance that I would rather gas a free package of these "meanstards" than deal with the headache and heartache down the line. 

Not even a debatable question in my increasingly grouchy mind!!! 

I guess one does become like the bees they keep... or kept!!!!


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## honey jhar (Jun 5, 2014)

I must chime in... though it is my FIRST YEAR beekeeping...
My first year hives appear calm to me. I work them in long sleeves, pants, bee hat. Not from fear, but caution. I've been stung 4 times.
But I got them late, and they did not experience a dearth THIS year. So we'll see....
Bee suit in the plan any way. I chose them because I could pick 'em up in my area.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

If a very experienced beekeeper like you say Russians are mean then I'm definitely taking note of that. Nice job on the OA chemistry lesson yesterday JW, very well done.



JWChesnut said:


> You left out:
> 5. Virtually impossible to requeen
> 6. Very dynamic population size requires greater management
> 7. Meaner than the junkyard dog
> ...


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## DaBadMan (Sep 25, 2014)

Although this has gone off topic it must be said that from everything I've seen and heard certain management practices produce certain results with Russians. The more hands off the keeper the more docile the Russian. The tendency to swarm is strong with these. However, with plenty of room to grow downward the Russian tends to stay put and be content.
But alas this post was not intended to become a debate over which bees one is biased towards or against. I'll repost the question in order to attempt to get this back on track


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## DaBadMan (Sep 25, 2014)

Is it wise for a first timer to re-queen over Italians in a Warré hive at the beginning of his very first season? 

Thanks for all the responses. =)


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

Locally for me last year a package was 130.00 and nucs were running 150.00. Packages had been under 100 previous years but with the rough winter they were hard to come by.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

DaBadMan said:


> Is it wise for a first timer to re-queen over Italians in a Warré hive at the beginning of his very first season?
> 
> Thanks for all the responses. =)


...
...
...
I think if you read the above responses, the answer to your question is pretty plainly laid out for you.


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## Mountain Bee (Apr 7, 2012)

DaBadMan said:


> Is it wise for a first timer to re-queen over Italians in a Warré hive at the beginning of his very first season?
> 
> Thanks for all the responses. =)



NO!!!


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## Backyarder (Mar 25, 2014)

Standard disclaimer: Im new and dont know much 
Are we assuming nucs = $200-ish?
 Pkg. = $120-ish?
Is the price of a nuc that much more than a package when you consider the added cost of buying a queen later?
And if the first queen isn't accepted or otherwise lost you may be in it for the cost of another.


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## DaBadMan (Sep 25, 2014)

Ok great. =-) thanks for all the on topic replies. That confirms my misgivings to the idea. It's settled then.

Special thanks to drlonzo and Andrew Dewey for giving such detail, fishman43 for the link and to honey jhar for sharing that experience as a first timer.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

If you are planning on a 'hands-off' approach to beekeeping it probably won't matter what strain of bee you get.

Russians may, or may not, survive better than other hygenic stock.

I was once a first year beekeeper that thought russians were just great and the bad press was hogwash. I no longer have russians and would never intenionally get them again. Are they the worst bees out there? No. But, the traits that make them successful in Russia are not as important in milder climates.

Tom


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## honey jhar (Jun 5, 2014)

"I was once a first year beekeeper that thought russians were just great and the bad press was hogwash."
Now that's funny!


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

DaBadMan said:


> So I'd like to start my first colony in spring. I'd really like to start with Russians for all of the reasons that people like russians. I'd like to start them in "The People's Hive".
> 
> I'm having a heck of a time locating a supplier who will ship me a 3 lbs package in the spring though. Some don't ship, others won't have the russians at the time and still others will only sell me a nuc. =/
> 
> ...


I designed and built my own hive after reading "bee keeping for all." I liked his bee friendly attitude, just not that he was so cheap smack with the hive building. I think it is the most important investment you can make. Consider your house, and your health. What if your house leaked, and molded, and rotted around you, and there were drafts coming in from everywhere. It's no wonder the poor things propolise everything.

At any rate, I built a warre style hive with a few tweaks, and I am documenting its progress here:

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYujrweVKe7UJM07XOSBMlw

I could not find Russian bees either, I got Italians from Waldo apiaries. It was a four pound package, and it was very good. I got my queen from Steve Coy, who was awesome to work with... and she was a beauty, I named her Natasha. I had read about trying to do this and decided that it was fairly safe. I never un-caged the queen the package came with. I wired the cage to the bottom side of a bar in the top box. My hive is a Vertical Top Bar. When Steve's queen came, I felt extremely guilty, but put the queen in the cage into the freezer... sigh. I still feel bad... really. Then I put the new queen where the old one was. Because I am an idiot I thought the red plug in the end of the cage was the candy and was surprised at how they hadn't chewed it out after five days... Did a little investigation, and found that it was a wood plug that was red so that an idiot would think to pull it out.... didn't work.... My bees were clinging to the cage, and in general, pissed that I was messing with it, so I took a needlenose pliers and peeled the screen back. The bees rushed right on in there and snookered her off into the comb.... So that worked just fine.

If you look at the videos that I shot without the IR (not green tinted) you can see the Italians next too the new Russian girls as the hive turned over. The Italians lasted for longer than I would have thought. My hive is suspended, and the bees rarely ever come down to ground level, even if I stand directly below it. I have never been stung yet.... but I don't mess with my hive, other than to lower it and look in the windows. They don't seem mean at all, but then again, I am used to wasps, and have never kept bees before this.


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## DaBadMan (Sep 25, 2014)

Hey thanks! Very interesting. I'll look at the link for sure soon. (Right after I get these apple snails on the grill! I say eat the pest. )
Thanks again. =)


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Why would one like to keep the aggressive and swarmy bees?
They are surely trouble, alright.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

beepro said:


> Why would one like to keep the aggressive and swarmy bees?
> They are surely trouble, alright.


Mine are not aggressive. Don't know if they are swarmy yet, but that wouldn't bother me either.


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## DaBadMan (Sep 25, 2014)

Let's be fair to the bees here. Management practices have just as much to do with aggression and swarming as do genetics. (although admittedly russians are swarmy)

Why do bees swarm? They swarm to propagate their species. The strongest colonies swarm more frequently because they can afford to. It's a sign of a strong colony with good genetics. On the other hand, it could be a sign of improper management. Adding supers to late, or naidering for that matter, can send bees swarming in any part of the world. Also, in nature (genetics), bees don't want to constantly cross over honey to do their work. They are neat freaks, o.c.d. creatures, the Mark Summers of the insect world. Forcing them to cross their stores or build their homes upward, as opposed to the natural process, "bugs" the heck out of them. It can make them think there is no room left even when there may be 2 deep supers above them.

The bees that don't mind crossing honey have been bred not to mind. They have been selected for their lack of concern regarding this. Walking on your food is unnatural for many species of animal and it could be argued that this practice is unhygienic. At any rate it's unnatural and likely for good reason. I think it's just another thing in a long list of management mistakes which has lead to the current crisis that the noble honeybee is now now facing.

In addressing aggression I would submit that invasive practices along with a general forceful attitude are leading factors. Also, let us keep in mind that in nature aggression would be rewarded with longevity. Generally speaking of course.

Let us not consider why or how nature has gone against our plans or wishes, but instead let us consider that it is us, our plans, our wishes which have gone against nature.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Well stated DaBadMan. I don't mess with them, they don't mess with me. What I want is to provide a good cavity for wild bees. I don't know if you can call them wild if they live in a man made hive, but I can work towards making sure that they are genetically capable of surviving on their own... without my interference... (other than the extra good cavity)


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