# bees shortage in almonds



## Keith Jarrett

"Bee shortage in almonds" as if it were pastence.

I would only, at this time, be concerned with " a WATER shortage".


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## loggermike

http://www.cfbf.com/news/audio/2009/Dec2.mp3
Sounds like Eric is hearing the same stuff.

Water?
From CFB:

"State Water Project customers to get 5 percent of allocations
-----
As dry weather continues, the State Water Project told customers they can expect only five percent of their allocations in 2010. That's the lowest initial allocation in project history. Last year the initial amount was 15 percent and by May that had increased to 40 percent. The initial allocation reflects low carryover storage levels in the state's major reservoirs. The allocation will be updated monthly reflecting how much precipitation falls. The State Water Project delivers water to customers in the southern San Joaquin Valley and southern California."
On the plus side ,we are getting snow tonight and through the week.I don't care much for these 11 degree nights.


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## suttonbeeman

I agree about the water shortage Keith, BUT I am saying what I've been told by ALL who I have talked to, both who called me AND those who I contacted, one of which is one of the largest better known providers (beek and broker) in almonds. Also lets hope long term weather projections of a wet winter/spring are correct as CA needs rain!


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## loggermike

There are plenty of train wrecks going on right now.Some beeks will tell you they are having problems and others will NEVER let on.Only time will tell, but my gut feeling is there will be a shortage of GOOD hives IF water is available.
Almonds are shipping at a record rate and prices are up, so......


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## Flathead Honey

I have had pretty much the same experience this year to date as sutton and logger. A broker I work with thought in january the price would be at least 150 for 6 frame min.

I have also been getting calls for bees and dont have them or know were to find some.

As for the water shortage growers we work with on the west side buy crop insurance and HAVE TO get bees. This is already determined regardless of water. I think all orchards get crop insurance and are required to get bees. Just like us they sign up for crop insurance in the fall. Pray for rain though.


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## Keith Jarrett

Flathead Honey said:


> As for the water shortage growers we work with on the west side buy crop insurance and HAVE TO get bees. This is already determined regardless of water. I think all orchards get crop insurance and are required to get bees. Just like us they sign up for crop insurance in the fall. Pray for rain though.


Flathead, let me ask you this, what does firewood & bees have in common?

Also, how many keepers do you think have Nap insurance?


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## suttonbeeman

Flathead

I'm heading back to Fl thursday If bees havent gone bad in last three weeks I will have bees that should ave 10-12 frames....if they do good 15+ but as above I'm not interested at anything less than 150 as I can make that much making splits(which are going to be wanted in eastern us)and blueberries in Fl. Tell them to call me wen it gets 150-or higher. also Wish I had moved to Montana yrs ago...love your state!


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## Flathead Honey

I am betting the real question is covering 100.00$ pollination contracts with 135.00 australian packages.


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## pahvantpiper

For there being a potential shortage, there sure are a lot of farmers not willing to sign a contract yet. A buddy of mine couldn't get a grower to sign for $125.00 for 8 frames when previously he had agreed to. You may be right about a bee shortage but it seems like I've heard this the last few years and it hasn't materialized. From what I've seen, there is not shortage at this time. Hopefully I'm wrong.


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## Keith Jarrett

Flathead Honey said:


> As for the water shortage growers we work with on the west side buy crop insurance and HAVE TO get bees. This is already determined regardless of water. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> You know Flathead, I co-wrote an artical in 2006 in the ABJ called "California deamin" it's also on Randy Oliver's home page, it talks about the same things on this thread BUT, there's no ending because WE DON'T KNOW YET. So keep on dreamin, your dreams might come true & might not.I have no idea how this is all going to play out, I do however have a strong hunch, I will keep it at that. In high steaks poker only the fools show there hand & run there mouth.


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## UV Bee

Flathead Honey said:


> I am betting the real question is covering 100.00$ pollination contracts with 135.00 australian packages.


Australian dollar is so much stronger than the U.S. dollar. Unless the Australian economy tanks or ours significantly strengthens between now and the Almond bloom very few Australian packages will be coming into the U.S. this year. I have heard an estimated price of $150 for australian packages right now. I doubt that beeks will be able to justify that cost. 

The average price I am hearing around my area for almond pollination is $130 for 8 frame avg. I have heard of a few beeks having some issues, but if we don't get the rain and beeks from the East decide it's still economical to truck out this way, there are going to be a lot of bees over here.


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## suttonbeeman

I agree Keith..But I thinks some growers think that there has never been a shortage and can get bees at the last minute for fire sale prices. Last year the price cutting made alot of growers think that I'm sure. However I dont know many bees that will go from the east coast for less than 80-100 in their pocket with honey at 1.40 plus. Also I can make two nucs instead of going to ca. I understand its differant if you are in the upper mid west as you need to move somewhere to winter. There is alot of risk hauling bees across country including the Barney Fife California bee inspection stations. Then the risk of picking up something you dont want also. So if I dont get paid good I wont go, but I agree with your California Deaming, I just think almond growers dream to a extent also.


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## loggermike

Joe Traynor weighs in:http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...ter/almond-grower-newsletter-december-3-2009/

"Clueless in Carruthers

A large grower-processor in the Fresno-Madera area has gotten with his almond friends to form a cartel consisting of around 60,000 acres. This cartel informed their list of beekeepers that they will be paying $117/colony for bees in 2010 – take it or leave it. The cartel is already showing fracture lines as some growers are paying much higher prices to beekeepers they feel have done a good job for them in the past. Three of our top beekeepers this past year are those that refused low-ball grower offers in 2009. It can take management inputs of $200/colony or more for beekeepers to come up with 8+ frame colonies in February (getting them in June is relatively easy). Put downward pressure on pollination prices and beekeepers will reduce inputs and then hope and pray that the grower won’t complain about colony strength."

Wonder how they came up with the $117 figure?


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## Keith Jarrett

suttonbeeman said:


> , I just think almond growers dream to a extent also.



Well Said post Suttonbeeman. 


P.S. Bees go up and down on a monthly basis, Trees don't.


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## Missoura

The reality is most of us are losing interest in California. You can blame randy Oliver as he said around 20 loads had been turned back on I 80 for various reasons mostly fire ant & small hive beetle. Said if stopped on Friday you might sit till Monday.

We have seen interest but growers are tossing out low ball figures and with the current price of honey most of us are really not interested.

True some beeks have got theirselves in a position they can not survive without almond pollination. Which is a poor position from which to negotiate when growers are trying to drive almond pollination fees down.

I am with Sutten if not profitable I will stay home. If I decide to stay home and the pleas come later pleas will not change my mind. it will take serious money and a contract to my liking. Half the money when the bees are placed and half when removed. No exceptions.

The price cutting comes from beeks going to California without a contract! If beeks stay home and only hives are in California under contract then the beeks not yet under contract will get contracts and there should be no price cutting.

Once you California beeks get your contract then pass out out of state beeks contact information. We will take things from there and you should not see a repeat of last year.

If you do as I say the growers cartel will fold and it will be every grower for theirself in an attempt to get hives under contract. Growers will have to sign so beeks can arrange trucking etc. 

When word gets out that their is NOT a surplus of hives SITTING in California the situation will change in favor of beekeepers. 

California beeks will get contracts first. Then close states and then Midwest and east coast beeks. 

Bringing a huge amount of hives into California without contract is playing into almond growers hands! caused the price cutting last year!


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## suttonbeeman

missoura, I have done both....two years sat at Needles for three days because of a wax moth larva, took ca three days to figure out what it was. I had a few strong singles that I put on a second box....well the bees found it and pulled it out.(we cleaned bed just before check station, guess bees found it in last 5 miles before we got there) Lost 40 colonies on top of load due to heat. I had a very heated argument with ca...especially since I thought anything as common as a wax moth larvae should be easily identified. A load was being held next to me for hive beetles, when I informed Gary Comphos(sp) that they would fly into other loads including mine he informed me that they didnt fly. (Gary is the HEAD CHIEF in sacremento). Well he called Jerry Hayes in Fl to see if I was lying...Jerry called me and told me he called and wanted to know if hive beetles flew! How do you regulate something if you dont know anythng about it?
Then this past year I cleaned pallets good, put on concrete and then truck. Had Fl do ant inspection. Decided to go thru Reno to avoid heat and south inspection and got in snow storm! Well crew at border said it was cleanest load they had seen in a while. When they found out bees came from Fl they got two step ladders and started searching....found one ONE ant and one cocoon after over a hour of searching.( I wonder if it was mine....was 40 degrees and I dont see how a ant was out in that cold!)With Fl inspection I am allowed in with 5 ants, three being fire ants> BUT they refuse entry and told me either to get them pressure washed back down south or go back. Well I asked gary(I'm not arguing with border agents, they are doing what they are told) how much kickback he was getting that according to my paperwork I was allowed in. He said they had changed the rules since I left Fl and signed paper work. (I also asked about all construction material and hay that wasnt being looked at). He replied that wasnt his problem that I had to go back...anyone who knows me would know that wasnt a smart responce. So I responded that I wasnt spending $13,000 over a piss ant that is all over Ca and he could let me in or I would be in Ca tomorrow as quick as I could catch a plane and that night I was going to be in Jail and he would be in the hospital and that I had never been in jail and if I was going to go I was going to make sure it was well worth it!(many more colorful words were included which cant be printer here) My truck was on the road in Ca in less than 5 minutes! Problem was I had to loose temper and IF truck had been turned back I WOULD HAVE been in Sacremento the next day! guess some of you think Im crazy but I'm fed up with Govt redtape and kickbacks. Might not be smart but I take no crap from anyone!


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## Missoura

Interesting about the bug station and the paperwork from Florida.
Jerry Hayes has been trying to get California for several years to simply accept the inspection done in Florida at a temp when a real inspection for fire ant and small hive beetle can be done (warm weather) and California for some reason wants to be a pain.

I really do not understand why a load inspected by the Florida inspection service can't be simply waved on through.

I have been on site in Florida for a number of these inspections and the Florida inspections are tough. Hives are transfered to new pallets and placed on plastic. Spam is put out. 

As a beekeeper you want a problem caught then.


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## pahvantpiper

Suttonbeeman,
That was an awesome story. I'm sure it wasn't at the time. Wish I had the guts you do!


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## Skinner Apiaries

Wild Story. If prices go up maybe we can all afford to smuggle them in reefers. 

CHiP "What you haulin there?"
beek: "frozen waffles."

On a serious note, Cali has everything the rest of North America dosent want, thanks to all those packages from Aussie, and all the bees in the US being piled on top of each other. (referring to disease) I don't see why there's serious inspections. If beetles or fireants is "bad" you should come here. We got plenty of both. Keep em killed down, but saying 1 ant can get you turned away... Not to say anything about beetles. I treat them like mites, keep em beat down, but can't ever kill them all.


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## LSPender

All this and we still have less than smart people (politically correct for Morons & Idiots) running around renting hives for 100 and less or promissing an 8 frame minimum for 125.


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## Skinner Apiaries

I wonder if the almond cartel can throw up enough money to stir up supply to cover demand at the last minute. I mean 14k hives seems like a huge number to me. Especially last minute. And noone goes to almonds without, what at least a season of preparation in how they winter them, right?


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## BEES4U

And no one goes to almonds without, what at least a season of preparation in how they winter them, right? 

You are right about the time factor,s.

It's late to think almonds now unless you are trying to hold out for later and you do have good bees.

I listened to Dr. E. Mussens CFB comments and they are scarry because we still have hives that are crashing.
I would like to know how many of the hives that are not wintering were in vine crop pollination.
I am getting phone calls now to cover contracts.
Ernie


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## BEES4U

I wonder if the almond cartel can throw up enough money to stir up supply to cover demand at the last minute.

On the topic of Pollination Brokers:
Usually within the contents of a well written contract the bee keeper can not pollinate the growers almonds for a time period of about three, 3, years without the broker being involved.
There are three, 3, well known farming conglomerants in California that need good strong hives annually and it seems that they kind of set the going rate for pollination.
I need to attend the up-coming Honey producers meeting held in California just because---------
Ernie


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## Tom G. Laury

*Like Keith Jarrett Said:*

High steaks poker. Right now the beekeepers are keeping their face on.


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## loggermike

Kind of like the Kenny Rogers song:
"You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done."

Beekeeping is such a gamble. Guess thats why I stay out of the casinos (most of the time anyways).


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## Keith Jarrett

loggermike said:


> Guess thats why I stay out of the casinos (most of the time anyways).


Mike, Now would be a good time to go, get out of the snow anyway.


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## suttonbeeman

lspender....I love it..great comment, but I'll just callem idiots, I'm not politically correct!


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## TwT

I have been watching the weather channel and see California has been getting some rain and suppose to get more, it will help but how for of a set back was it to tree growers with last year drought, how long do you think it will take to recover and get back to adding acre's of almond tree's again? I heard some had to let acre's of tree's go because no water.


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## BEES4U

Here's the NOAA forecast for Fresno, California:
Ernie

http://forecast.weather.gov/showsig...=Fresno+CA&product1=Special+Weather+Statement

Special Weather Statement
SPECIAL WEATHER STATEMENT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY - HANFORD CA
316 PM PST FRI DEC 11 2009

CAZ089>094-120700-
WEST CENTRAL SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY-EAST CENTRAL SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY-
SOUTHWESTERN SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY-SOUTHEASTERN SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY-
MARIPOSA MADERA AND FRESNO COUNTY FOOTHILLS-
TULARE COUNTY FOOTHILLS-
316 PM PST FRI DEC 11 2009

...PERIODS OF RAIN AND GUSTY WINDS TO AFFECT CENTRAL CALIFORNIA
THROUGH THE WEEKEND...

OCCASIONAL LIGHT RAIN WILL PERSIST IN THE SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY AND
ADJACENT FOOTHILLS TONIGHT AND SATURDAY MORNING.

THE LAST IN A SERIES OF STRONG PACIFIC WINTER STORMS WILL MOVE
INTO CALIFORNIA ON SATURDAY...BRINGING MODERATE TO LOCALLY HEAVY
RAIN AT TIMES FROM LATE SATURDAY AFTERNOON THROUGH SUNDAY MORNING.
*RAINFALL AMOUNTS OF ONE TO TWO INCHES WILL BE POSSIBLE IN THE SAN
JOAQUIN VALLEY...*WITH LOCALLY HIGHER AMOUNTS IN THE ADJACENT
FOOTHILLS. RAINFALL WILL BE MUCH LESS IN THE FAR SOUTH VALLEY DUE
TO RAIN SHADOWING...PROBABLY LESS THAN ONE-HALF INCH. THIS AMOUNT
OF RAIN COULD CAUSE SOME MINOR FLOODING OF LOW LYING AREAS AND


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## Riverdog

Humm... Not an idiot, but have talked to a lot of keepers large and small. Frankly I'm hoping the industry can launch some sort of new business plan that would show growers what it takes to provide a quality or standard hive. I get so perplexed as if the price of the crop sets the price of the hive. I've studied and will continue to apply better accounting practices to justify hive prices. The word "fair market vaule" is way over used. It generalizes to much the space between the best broker and the bottom feeders. Most growers have budget. We do as well. Maybe we could start talking about what it takes for an avg. Mid West keeper pays to take a 8 Frame min. to the almonds. Do any of you run a budget starting Jan. or at the begining some other time like April? And of that budget what % should say almonds pay? This unlikey a new topic but I'm humored by the extremes expressed about prices and quality.

So just throwing an idea out. Let's say current hive conditions require you to each calender year to re-queen, replace some equipment, medicate, feed, pollen subs, transport, labor, tools, equipment, insurances, and in some cases replace hive completely. This causes say the avg. keeper $150.00 a year per hive?(some less some more) Of that what should almonds, cherries, bluberries, apples, pears, ect. pay. You could in some models throw in bee sales and or honey as well. I don't really know today how I feel about what I'm really saying but it's direction or thought is better than pure speculation which could stablize prices and would be based on keepers instead of growers. 

No right or wrong just throwin it out there!
Supply and demand curves eliminated, however overall prices would be higher likely year in and year out. 


Chad Ragland


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## Missoura

Riverdog,
Two things are against the beekeepers doing almond pollination.

1. The grower has the edge when he knows you depend on almond pollination.
If he knows enough hives are in California to provide the hives he could easily get a lower price by waiting.

2. Bringing in hives from out of state without a contract hurts the process. 
Once in California you fall into the catagory of needing to rent those hives.


The solution:
All California beekeepers insist on contracts. As you sign tell growers you know of no other hives not booked. Create a little panic in grower circles.

Out of state needs to keep hives out unless in an area growers can not see the hives. Semi loads sitting every mile lets growers know plenty of hives are around.

As the season draws closer give out names of out of state beekeepers. 

important: You need some growers which wanted bees to not get bees to get prices moving upward again.

When my bees are sitting at home they are not costing me money. Can be quickly loaded if needed for a signed contract worth the effort.

When sitting in California , with a crew at a motel and trucking involved I am tempted to take what growers toss out. 

When sitting at home in front of the fireplace I can be very independent which is best for California beekeepers.

The first year of the plan California beekeepers need to get signed contracts even if perhaps not top dollar. Our of State beeks need to stay home until contracts are reached And most important some growers need to not be able to get bees.

Some growers need to not be able to rent hives is a key part of the solution. 
Let the out of state beekeepers handle that end.

I realize the growers are your friends but we are taking business here.


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## BEES4U

That's a nice posting on contract management.
But it has some flaws in it .
I will remain silent for now and let some one else make comments.
Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett

BEES4U said:


> I will remain silent for now and let some one else make comments.
> Ernie


:waiting: :waiting: opcorn:


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## TwT

BEES4U said:


> That's a nice posting on contract management.
> But it has some flaws in it .
> I will remain silent for now and let some one else make comments.
> Ernie


come on Ernie, spit it out, I am curious :scratch:, we are waitingopcorn:


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## Tom G. Laury

There is no way possible to control or effect the market place like that, as admirable as the idea is. The market is determined by supply and demand, unaffected by production costs. Ask any farmer. Coming out West without a contract for survival has been going on since before the Donner Party, and when it gets bad enough, well...


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## Barry Digman

I'm going to throw this link in just because. The article has to do with real estate commissions and such, but you'll get the jist of how it relates to other discussions that might involve antitrust.

http://www.aaronline.com/documents/antitrustlimitedservice.aspx


The DOJ takes talk of boycotts and price fixing very, very seriously. Just sayin'....


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## Countryboy

Almond growers do not plant almonds for the benefit of the beekeeper. Beekeepers DO bring bees to the almonds for the primary benefit of the almond growers.

I'm hearing beekeepers talk like they think they control the situation, when the harsh reality is that the pollination beekeepers are subordinate to the almond growers. 

Have you ever hired someone who tried to tell you how to run your business? Or had a coworker who knew more than the boss? They got fired pretty fast.

Pollination beekeepers would be wise to remember that they are providing a service, which means they are the servants. They are not the masters.


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## TwT

what is this post about? almond growers are nothing but tree farmers without bee's, they need bee's more than the pollinators need them, without bee's almond growers make nothing, but the beekeeper can go anywhere and make money if had to.

I am sorry but thats just a crazy post, if almond growers were like you say the MASTERS, then they wouldn't need a beekeeper...

if the beekeepers stayed away the almond growers would be no more, that show me where they stand, they need us more than we need them!!! Thats why they pay so much, the less beekeepers there the more they will pay to get some there!!


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## alpha6

Holy moly what are you guys talking about??? Most, no make that all people I know that bring in bees from out of state to Calf. already have a contact so the price is set. The only jumping on price that is going on is those almond farmers who think they can get a lower price on someone who brought in bees without contracts. The only ones who can supply bees at those lower prices are those who brought in bees without a contract. Last year from what I understand a good number of "no contract" beekeepers ate it...and you know what I don't feel sorry for them...have a contract in hand or keep you bees out. I can survive without almonds, but we have a great working relationship with a number of growers and everyone is civil and fair so everyone benefits. On the other side of the coin, I heard that some almond growers that "held" out got junk or no fewer bees then they needed and you know what...their corps were lower so they ate it....and that's just the way it is. 

And this is the reason you don't see commercial guys going nuts on this thread over what the price will be is cause the ones who are doing it right already have their contracts.


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## Mike. T.

BEES4U said:


> Here's the NOAA forecast for Fresno, California:
> Ernie
> 
> THE LAST IN A SERIES OF STRONG PACIFIC WINTER STORMS WILL MOVE
> INTO CALIFORNIA ON SATURDAY...BRINGING MODERATE TO LOCALLY HEAVY
> RAIN AT TIMES FROM LATE SATURDAY AFTERNOON THROUGH SUNDAY MORNING.
> *RAINFALL AMOUNTS OF ONE TO TWO INCHES WILL BE POSSIBLE IN THE SAN
> JOAQUIN VALLEY...*WITH LOCALLY HIGHER AMOUNTS IN THE ADJACENT
> FOOTHILLS. RAINFALL WILL BE MUCH LESS IN THE FAR SOUTH VALLEY DUE
> TO RAIN SHADOWING...PROBABLY LESS THAN ONE-HALF INCH. THIS AMOUNT
> OF RAIN COULD CAUSE SOME MINOR FLOODING OF LOW LYING AREAS AND


Oh ya we got the rain if it keeps up like this might have to get out the waders for the girl's:lpf:, but we still need alot more, I've been hearing an early bloom this year know a grower with a couple of isolated trees that are blooming, has any body else heard anything?


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## RDY-B

68 DAYS till Bloom  RDY-B


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## Skinner Apiaries

lol rdy-b counting down?


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## Keith Jarrett

:waiting: :waiting: opcorn:


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## BEES4U

Oh ya we got the rain 

How much rain do you have to date and how much did this last rain total?

Thanks,
Ernie


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## alpha6

Keith...stop eating all the popcorn!!! :no:


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## Countryboy

_what is this post about? almond growers are nothing but tree farmers without bee's, they need bee's more than the pollinators need them, without bee's almond growers make nothing, but the beekeeper can go anywhere and make money if had to._

I would encourage you to rethink that. The pollinating beekeepers need the almond growers much more than the almond growers need the beekeepers. Hiring pollination services is a small piece of the pie for almond production. If almond growers didn't hire pollination, they would suffer reduced yields, but they would still have some yield - they would not be reduced to mere tree farmers. I'm sure there are other pollinating insects in almond groves. (Last I knew there were feral AHB in California, not to mention bumblebees and mason bees, etc.)

If beekeepers can go anywhere and make money, why is the almond pollination check what keeps them in business?

_if almond growers were like you say the MASTERS, then they wouldn't need a beekeeper..._

They are the masters because they are the ones paying for the pollination. They have the choice of hiring pollination, or doing without and relying on native pollinators.

In life, the one footing the bill is the boss/master.

I am hearing beekeepers basically say, "I have a product to sell (pollination) and customers should be forced to buy my product at a price that guarantees me profit." And that mentality is ridiculous.

Are wildcat strikes by migratory beekeepers next?


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## Barry

Countryboy said:


> If beekeepers can go anywhere and make money, why is the almond pollination check what keeps them in business?


If beekeepers weren't that important to growers, growers would be paying peanuts for their service. The check speaks for itself.


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## JPK

Barry said:


> If beekeepers weren't that important to growers, growers would be paying peanuts for their service. The check speaks for itself.


More specifically this is a matter of supply and demand.

If more commercial beeks were to get into the game or Almond Growers were to expand/contract the price for pollination would fall/rise based upon which is in shortage.

Same thing happened in housing a couple years back if we all think about it.

There was a shortage of homes and increased number of buyers.....hence it was a sellers market where prices were high and buyers were willing to make concessions to get a contract.

If next year there is freak weather, Pests or Fire that destroys 15 or 20% of all Almond trees what do you think would happen to the value of pollination contracts? Of course they would go down because there would be more beeks competing for fewer contracts.


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## loggermike

>>I'm sure there are other pollinating insects in almond groves. (Last I knew there were feral AHB in California, not to mention bumblebees and mason bees, etc.)<<

Nope. I occasionally see a bumblebee, but rarely. The orchards are sprayed so much its a wonder even a rare bumblebee survives.They NEED the hives brought in,no question about it.
But its just business. You make the best deal you can based on your knowledge of the factors involved, and so do the growers.


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## loggermike

>More specifically this is a matter of supply and demand<

Exactly. The growers couldn't care less about my operating costs.They have their own problems.

(To their credit, the almond growers have kicked in a lot of money to fund research on bee problems)


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## 123456789

Countryboy said:


> Almond growers do not plant almonds for the benefit of the beekeeper. Beekeepers DO bring bees to the almonds for the primary benefit of the almond growers.
> 
> I'm hearing beekeepers talk like they think they control the situation, when the harsh reality is that the pollination beekeepers are subordinate to the almond growers.
> 
> Have you ever hired someone who tried to tell you how to run your business? Or had a coworker who knew more than the boss? They got fired pretty fast.
> 
> Pollination beekeepers would be wise to remember that they are providing a service, which means they are the servants. They are not the masters.


Hahaha.......Beekeepers take bees to almonds to benefit THEMSELVES.


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## Keith Jarrett

JPK said:


> If next year there is freak weather, Pests or Fire that destroys 15 or 20% of all Almond trees .


Maybe try, Rain (water) There maybe a shortage of bees & SHORTAGE OF LIVE TREES .

:waiting: :waiting: opcorn:


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## The Honey Householder

Beekeeper can truck bees anywhere, but it still cost money to truck them. I've been told year in and year out that there is good money in the almond. The problem with good money everyone wants it. With good money comes work and sometimes a lot of work. It's to bad some people forget this. I hear good money NOT EASY MONEY!!!!!:doh:
The Honey Householderopcorn::banana::banana:


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## 67630

Is there any such thing as easy money?


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## Keith Jarrett

FSA, that's for the boy's in S. Texas.


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## 67630

ok i'm stupid, Keith whats FSA.


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## BEES4U

FSA
Farm Service Agency:
http://www.fsa.usda.gov/FSA/webapp?area=home&subject=landing&topic=landing

Ernie


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## RDY-B

michael-bees said:


> ok i'm stupid, Keith whats FSA.


 http://www.fsa.usda.gov/FSA/webapp?area=home&subject=fmlp&topic=landing

:gh: RDY-B


----------



## Countryboy

_Hahaha.......Beekeepers take bees to almonds to benefit THEMSELVES. _

If that is the PRIMARY benefit they seek, those beekeepers will go bust in the end.

There is a big difference in working for a paycheck, and just showing up wanting to collect a paycheck. If all you care about is yourself, how are you going to be able to provide a service worthy of the paycheck you receive?

I am a firm advocate of free markets. In free markets, prices come down over time. Find ways of streamlining your business, improve efficiences and productivity, etc. and you will increase your profit margins, even if you charge less.

_Is there any such thing as easy money? _

The bailed out bankers seem to think so. And the federal workers making $100K a year.


----------



## JohnK and Sheri

Countryboy said:


> If >>to benefit THEMSELVES.<< is the PRIMARY benefit they seek, those beekeepers will go bust in the end.


Just symantics. Of course the primary goal is to benefit themselves. Do you think the growers are doing otherwise by renting bees? Beekeepers providing a quality service also benefits themselves... long term... as it assures future contracts and pride of a job well done..


Countryboy said:


> In free markets, prices come down over time.


Is that true???? My experience is that prices constantly fluctuate given supply and demand.

This master/servant talk is confusing and smells of feudalism. I don't consider myself a "servant" when I deliver bees to a grower any more than I consider the man who delivers our propane to be a servant. He is providing me a product and service he can _choose_ to provide or no, while I am in dire need of that product. If I am in dire need of something I would more likely consider _myself_ on the subserviant side of the equation.
Sheri


----------



## Countryboy

_Beekeepers providing a quality service also benefits themselves_

But the beekeepers need to provide the quality service BEFORE they get the benefit. The almond growers needs get met (quality pollination) BEFORE the beekeepers (paychecks).

_Is that true???? My experience is that prices constantly fluctuate given supply and demand._

In the short term you will see price fluctuations, but over the long term, prices come down in a true free market. When we see prices rising over the long term, this should alert us that we do not have a free market economy.

_I don't consider myself a "*serv*ant" when I deliver bees to a grower any more than I consider the man who delivers our propane to be a servant. He is providing me a product and *serv*ice he can choose to provide or no, while I am in dire need of that product._

He/you serve, but you are not servants? Think about what you just said. A servant serves and provides a service.

The propane supplier can choose to deliver or not, but if he doesn't, there will be another supplier eager to earn your dollars.
You can choose to buy propane, or not. There are alternatives. Burn coal, wood, fuel oil, waste oil, etc. Or do without.

If you are in dire need of a product/service, then you most certainly are NOT free. You have allowed the servant to become your master. Feudalism you say? An independant person, is in dire need of NOTHING anyone else offers. The moment you are in dire need of something, you are dependant. In a feudal society, serfs are dependant upon the overlord - but the overlord is not dependant upon the serfs.


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## BEES4U

Howdy happy boy with all your ha ha ha.

When your home base is close to the Almonds, you go to the cash flow.
And, we will  make the bank deposit.
You need to remember thay there are some big, very big, California bee operations that are within a few short miles of the almonds that will be pollinated year after year after year.:banana::banana::banana:

Ernie


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## jjgbee

Somewhat on the same topic. In the water world, Resnick (Paramount Farms) just sold 14,000 acre foot of water rights to The Mojave Water Agency for $74 million. The water rights were from the Westside water district. At one time he had 12,000 acres of almonds in the westside district. Now that water will be farming houses in So. Cal. Will he be selling almond firewood next year?


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## JohnK and Sheri

Countryboy said:


> But the beekeepers need to provide the quality service BEFORE they get the benefit. The almond growers needs get met (quality pollination) BEFORE the beekeepers (paychecks).


I am having trouble following you here. :s We actually get paid upon placement, BEFORE the bees do any pollinating. But what possible difference does it make who does what first? 



Countryboy said:


> If you are in dire need of a product/service, then you most certainly are NOT free. You have allowed the servant to become your master.


BINGO, you make my point. The growers ARE in dire need of bees, they have no alternative. The only question is at what price they can rent them, determined chiefly by the ration of bees to trees. It is not a question of master/servant, it is a question of supply and demand and that changes year by year. What is the situation this year? I don't know yet. If there are more bees than trees, some beeks might wish they were 'servants'. They might go away beggars instead.  If more trees than bees, well, I think we know who will be begging then. I've seen both situations. It won't be long now before we know. Hopefully there is a balance and nobody gets hurt. We all work to each other's mutual benefit, even if that is not the primary goal. 
Sheri


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## 123456789

The bottom line is..... THE BOTTOM LINE!


----------



## tecumseh

snip numero uno..
I am a firm advocate of free markets. In free markets, prices come down over time. Find ways of streamlining your business, improve efficiences and productivity, etc. and you will increase your profit margins, even if you charge less.

snip twooo..
Is that true???? My experience is that prices constantly fluctuate given supply and demand.

tecumseh:
well first off my one, two or three degrees in economic has never informed me of what the uninformed might actually mean by 'free markets'. my first question (still unanswered after several decades) is free for whom?

of course most folks trained in economic thinking would begin by asking the question as to whether the question is in regards to NOMINAL or ABSOLUTE price.

almost anyone with any economic training beyond econ 101 will tell you that prices are almost always inflexible downward (in real terms). so the statement that a free market always leads to downward trending prices over time is almost alway false (more likely to be wrong than right). 

in most cases (beyond the purely academic/theoritical/mathmatical understanding of economics) it is actually the perception of supply and demand that matter most. under this mental model expectation matters more than reality, and expectations and perception are much easier to manipulate than reality in almost every case.


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## Skinner Apiaries

Tecumseh, I had a few econ classes too. As to Prices, why has my pollination price on blueberries been the same for 20 something years? Factor in inflation and the "value" of the dollars paid is actually much less. Almonds is en entirely different equation because the "demand" went 'nuts' and now the price is ridiculous, only because people on say the right coast want 65 bucks a box, and the almond boys have to figure in extra cost to ship, on top of the cost to feed that everyone else does. So it's less about what they're willing to pay, and more about what we the supplier of bees is willing to take as far as bank clearing. I mean if you have a strong box of bees for almonds, whats keeping you from splitting them with a whole passel of nucs, and going into flows with plenty of strong colonies? Radical? maybe. But you surely mustn't depend on the possibility of contracts in a business plan when they are last minute and annual only. I'm sure the people with long lasting relationships with individual growers probably fair much better than those sitting on sidelines speculating on prices and rainfall.
Opinions?


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## suttonbeeman

Had offer of 135 in writing today, broker has good reputation.


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## Nick Noyes

I'm sure the people with long lasting relationships with individual growers probably fair much better than those sitting on sidelines speculating on prices and rainfall.
Opinions?[/QUOTE]

Very well put.
Bees have been placed in almonds (by in and out of state keepers) prior to the last 5 years. Hard to believe but true.
Sometimes seems to be more drama on here than on the actual battle field.


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## Skinner Apiaries

Sutton, going? Or waiting them out? lol


----------



## tecumseh

skinner writes:
Tecumseh, I had a few econ classes too. As to Prices, why has my pollination price on blueberries been the same for 20 something years? Factor in inflation and the "value" of the dollars paid is actually much less.

tecumseh:
you are saying directly that the real price for pollination of blueberries has been in almost constant decline for some time (I would guess that the nominal price must be about the same???).

actually I suspect (don't have no data to say one way or the other absolutely) that supply and demand are much more in play in the almonds than in just about any other pollination venture in the us of a. since the market power of the two sides of this relationship are about equivalent (for quite different reasons) something approaching a market determined price is in play.. ie neither side can manipulate the price very much without negative consequence. 

have you considered keeping tabs of your cost and demanding more for the blueberry pollination. certainly you will not get more if you don't ask for more. if the blueberry operation are small (privately owned) then likely the relationship developed between you and the blueberry grower may be more important than a few buck (more likely so IF blueberry production is in anyway profitable).


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## Matt Beekman

> broker has good reputation.


 :lpf:

With the exception of Joe Traynor, I question whether that is possible.


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## loggermike

This report from 2006 studied some of the factors of almond pollination.
http://aic.ucdavis.edu/research/bee-conomics-1.pdf


----------



## Keith Jarrett

nice post LM >)


----------



## suttonbeeman

matt
I have sent this broker bees for last three years, they have taken good care of my bees(feeding) always got paid and as far as I'm concerned as good as you can get. I havent signed contract yet....looking as selling some splits and pollinating blueberries. Bees come back strong but I could get 1-2 splits out of each hive if I left them in Fl and didnt move to ca. AND I DONT HAVE TO FIGHT THE IDIOTS known as CAlifornia ag inspection.


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## Skinner Apiaries

tecumseh,
hard to do when a fella down the road has 5000 hives and is slinging them about at 55 all day long...


----------



## Missoura

Skinner Apiairies:
To play in a poker game for money one needs to understand the game. To bring hives into California one needs to understand the game.
The only safe play is a signed contract which spells out grading and all aspects of the deal.

There are only two possible issues which would lead a commercial beekeeper to rent hives for basically break even.

1. the hives are culls or rejects from a 8 frame average contract. many simply let these go into an orchard for free but if a crew is around removing, moving to other pallets and then 
renting for less money is an option.

2. Your hives did not grade and your contract is void.
or
You went in California without a contract and now find yourself not being able to even recoup trucking.

Behind every advertisement for cheap hives in the Fresno Bee is a story.
Beekeepers unless they are stupid do not price at bargain basement prices.
Almond growers not under contract look daily at the adds to find bargain basement prices. 

Many show the adds to their contracted beekeepers in hopes of a better price now or next season.

The adds usually simply say "hives for rent" without description. Kind of reminds you of trying to by a used car. Most are priced cheap for obvious reasons.

Almond growers have been accused of placing some adds because when people call the person on the other end says the hives are already placed.

Almond growers are still sore over the big jump a few years ago in prices.
In ALL other pollination the beekeeper gently tries to get a higher price each year. usually five bucks a hive . Was the way it was in almonds until a few years ago then huge jumps of say twenty bucks and up in a single year.

Almond pollination prices are out of line with other crop pollination. As a beekeeper I say wonderful! 

Growers which are paying the prices are wondering why things went wrong and they ended up paying the high prices and like the cartel are trying to find ways to hold the price line and if things work out get cheaper prices in the future. 

With water issues and low nut meat prices why would they not?


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## Skinner Apiaries

Missoura good post. I learned some stuff! On a serious note, we aren't really grading here, and there are alot of crap hives, but I for one think that placing #### hives will not get you further contracts, or continued business and it's important not to do so (I'm referring to pollination on my side of the world, but I assume it works that way everywhere). Almonds is clearly the world series of pollination. Thanks again for the post!


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## loggermike

Beekeeps go in cheap to keep a cash flow going in hopes of staying in the game till things improve. I saw this in my logging years where the sawmills would play the logging contractors off against each other to get the mills cost down. Worked so good it drove lots of small loggers out of business. Because of course things never really 'got better', that was just SOP for the mill owners.


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## Bob Felker

Matt, there are others, including you and Bruce


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## BEES4U

Almond pollination prices are out of line with other crop pollination. 

Oh No, Almond Pollination is not out of line!
You have to remember that the Almond tree is one of the 1st, First, to bloom in spring.
Other pollinations can be covered with Spring divides.
Ernie


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## suttonbeeman

When I started this thread almost two months ago, from what I heard I thought there would be a shortage of bees for almonds. At the time there were bees advertised for 80-100 dollars, some growers were waiting until the last minute thinking they would get a bargain....well according to my phone calls today the shortage is here! Last call I had (I had three today looing for bees)I had a offer of $145 and when I said I wasnt interested I was told that by the end of he week price would be at or over 160. One grower needs 4k hives and was waiting...he has none as of now! Looks like we will have earlier signed contracts next year! I'm betting by late next week there are going to be some sick growers begging for bees.


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## BEES4U

suttonbeeman said:


> One grower needs 4k hives and was waiting...he has none as of now! Looks like we will have earlier signed contracts next year! I'm betting by late next week there are going to be some sick growers begging for bees.


:scratch:
4,000/420 Hives per load = 9.52 Loads.

His bank may be really unhappy with this situation.
The wait and see just does not wash!
Ernie


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## alpha6

Well I hate to wish ill on any farmer, but this is why the smarter ones lock in their contacts early. Sure I may not be getting $160 bucks but I know all my bees are rented in December and the farmer knows he will have enough bees to pollinate his crop. Everyone works towards the same goal. Those who are trying to play the system both almond growers and beeks by shipping with no contracts are gambling. And gambling can pay big or you can lose it all...I would rather not gamble with my livelihood.


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## Tom G. Laury

Still rumors of all you want for $110. But my phone won't quit ringing, growers wanting bees.


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## suttonbeeman

Alpha is right....I past three years I signed a contract in Sept. THis year growers held back and I didnt get a written offer until Dec and then it was for 110. So I got busy and started selling nucs...now growers want bees and I'm obligated to the nuc buyers....maybe next year I'll get a offer in Sept or Oct with amount back up to 145 or higher.


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## sqkcrk

BEES4U said:


> Almond pollination prices are out of line with other crop pollination.
> 
> Oh No, Almond Pollination is not out of line!
> You have to remember that the Almond tree is one of the 1st, First, to bloom in spring.
> Other pollinations can be covered with Spring divides.
> Ernie


Right on Ernie. Supply and demand at work. If you want strong colonies when you want them then the supplier has to manage his colonies to that end. Maybe other crops need to adjust towards almonds. ya think? Then again, what the market will bear comes into play.


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## suttonbeeman

Things change quick....got another desperate call today...grower has trees blooming and broker/beekeeper has no bees although they had a signed contract. Offer is for more quite a bit more net than I got last year (152 gross last year). So I'm on plane to Fl. tomorrow and bees will be in Ca Wednesday morning. Calls still coming looking for bees!


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## BEES4U

Wednesday, February 03, 2010

I know of two growers that need a total of 1,400 hives.
The growers stated that:
A beekeeper changed his mind at the last minute.
A semi load came in way under the minimum frame count
We are talking about $130.00 to $135.00/ hive. 5 frame minimum and an 8 frame average.
One man may need to take all of my 5 frame nucs because of the situation.

Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett

Massive, MASSIVE, shortages.west coast to the east coast!

This is what the almond growers have order....Bon Appiete


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## BEES4U

Keith Jarrett said:


> Massive, MASSIVE, shortages.west coast to the east coast!
> 
> This is what the almond growers have order....Bon Appiete


The hives that were well fed last fall are going to almond pollination.
Some bee keepers refuse the feed their hives.
Ernie


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## Tom G. Laury

*Bon Apetite*

As they say in the fancy restaurants: Enjoy!


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## Trevor Mansell

I know alot of the beekeepers around here are coming up way short. With all the rain we are having this winter and honey prices like they are, nobody wants to give up any bees to ship out there.


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## BEES4U

Trevor Mansell said:


> nobody wants to give up any bees to ship out there.


I know of one semi from Florida that came into the almonds recently that did not make the grade.
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U

*Re: Bon Apetite*



Tom G. Laury said:


> As they say in the fancy restaurants: Enjoy!


Please hold the snails.
Ernie


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## alpha6

Double whammy for almond growers is to qualify for crop failure insurance they have to have done everything (including putting bees in for pollination) to collect. I guess that group of growers who were going to form a coalition and hold off on contacts to force down the price of hives is wondering if that was such a great idea now. From my understanding a couple of those growers broke away from this from the start and I bet they are glad they did. 

The only problem I see with a shortage is that next year when prices are ramped up beyond reasonable, lots of bees will arrive without contracts and start the whole mess over again.


----------



## jean-marc

Alpha: 

Hmmm, me think's you are putting the cart ahead of the horse. I would say complete this season before you worry too much about next year. Borders could be opened to fill any potential shortages. This water thing has yet to play itself out hasn't it?

Jean-Marc


----------



## alpha6

jean-marc said:


> Alpha:
> 
> Hmmm, me think's you are putting the cart ahead of the horse. I would say complete this season before you worry too much about next year. Borders could be opened to fill any potential shortages. This water thing has yet to play itself out hasn't it?
> 
> Jean-Marc


Jean-Marc I am not worried so you can but your horse where ever you like. I run off long standing contracts. You are wrong about filling shortages...obviously you don't know the timetable involved with the bloom, it is a very narrow window. As for water, lots of rain in Calf. right now and prices and demand for almonds is holding steady...I am sure they will get what they need.


----------



## irwin harlton

"The hives that were well fed last fall are going to almond pollination."

Anyone got any pic"s of those well fed boomers?.......kinda perks a fellow up when all you got to look at is snow


----------



## BEES4U

irwin harlton said:


> "The hives that were well fed last fall are going to almond pollination."
> 
> Anyone got any pic"s of those well fed boomers?.......kinda perks a fellow up when all you got to look at is snow


Irwin,
I will try to get some pics for you.
It's been hectic to say the least.
I transfered my August nucs into their new brood chambers. They covered 5 frames in their nucs and they now cover 7 to 8 franes with a temperature of 67 degrees F.
Ernie


----------



## JohnK and Sheri

BEES4U said:


> I transfered my August nucs into their new brood chambers. They covered 5 frames in their nucs and they now cover 7 to 8 franes with a temperature of 67 degrees F.Ernie


And I know a few brokers who would be very happy to have them.
Sheri


----------



## BEES4U

JohnK and Sheri said:


> And I know a few brokers who would be very happy to have them.
> Sheri


It took a lot of L&TC to get them into this mode.
You and I would know the amount of care it takes.

Ernie


----------



## jean-marc

alpha:

I'm aware that bees from Canada won't help this year. I was pointing out that options are available long term should shortages become a yearly event. If the money is right I'm sure all kinds of hives can come out of the woods.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Nick Noyes

Opening the Canadian border would open up all types of new honey terratory not to mention that high dollar canola pollination.
Do you think it could be done before June?


----------



## jean-marc

I'm sure it could be done before june, not sure about the year though 

Jean-Marc


----------



## M.S.

A quote from California Farm Bureau Federation*


... and bee health remains a worry *

In recent weeks, beekeepers have started reporting more instances of colony collapse disorder, a disease that kills honeybees. A University of California specialist says few instances of the disease were reported during the fall and early winter … but that more hives have collapsed just as beekeepers prepare to move them into almond orchards for pollination work. More than a million beehives are needed to pollinate California's almond crop.


----------



## Omie

M.S. said:


> In recent weeks, beekeepers have started reporting more instances of colony collapse disorder, a disease that kills honeybees. A University of California specialist says few instances of the disease were reported....


I don't think CCD has been determined to be 'a disease'. It is the failing/disappearing of bee colonies due to causes as yet undetermined.


----------



## Skinner Apiaries

Let's not hijack this thread with the squabble of what CCD is or isnt, plenty of other threads for that crap.

Ernie, cramming the patties to them, huh?

Any tally on how short of bees they really are out there?


----------



## M.S.

as far as I know the numbers haven't been given out yet. 

There is an audio attached with Eric Mussen speaking. 

A phone number for more info is on the end of the clip


----------



## BEES4U

Skinner Apiaries said:


> Let's not hijack this thread with the squabble of what CCD is or isnt, plenty of other threads for that crap.
> 
> Ernie, cramming the patties to them, huh?
> 
> Any tally on how short of bees they really are out there?


Saturday, February 06, 2010
Yes, I will feed the hives all that they can eat.
I posted a photo in the photo gallery today of a nuc the was well fed since last August with my nuc formulation + HFCS Type 55.
I do not know what the talley is for hives needed. But, i could rent over 2, 800 at the moment.
Ernie


----------



## Allen Dick

This just in on BEE-L:

All

I'm in a hotel in Oakdale tonight. Flew out to check reports of 
widespread bee losses in CA, escalating rental fees, possible shortages. I'm also 
taking samples - looking for two types of bee operations to inspect/sample: 

Those with unusually high losses - assuming anything is left to see/sample, 
AND just as importantly
Those with Great bees, no history of CCD.

Our analyses have provided leads to a very specific pathogen complex that 
we are trying to verify.

I'll be here about a week, traveling up and down the state. I can be 
reached at my [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) e-mail, or my 
cell 406-544-9007.

Thanks

Jerry

P.S. I need contact information - cell phone preferably - since everyone 
is involved in a major push to get bees in to the almonds, hard to reach by 
any means other than cell - which they might answer. Of course, if you 
know where they go to breakfast about mid-morning, give me the address of the 
diner.


----------



## Missoura

I feel the need to share what I have learned from a source close to the current investigation.

"it's contagious, and its two pathogens working together -best we can tell"

The above has been passed around in commercial circles for a few months.
One reason out of state beekeepers have had reservations on sending hives to California. 

The long range weather report on U.S. Farm Report ( 90 day) is for above normal for the Dakotas & normal for the Midwest and Texas.

Years with above normal snow fall are always big clover years. Current prices for bulk honey is in the buck fifty range with reports of small drum losts going for as high as $2 a pound.

A commercial beekeeper in the south said he is booked solid for nuc sales ( $95 ).

Although California is a big part of many out of state beekeepers income the high fees paid might look so good if the bees come back in trouble. ( thinking out loud)

Now many on the list might argue about the current issue being contagious and two pathogens working together but what if the researchers are correct?


----------



## BEES4U

Missoura said:


> I feel the need to share what I have learned from a source close to the current investigation.
> 
> "it's contagious, and its two pathogens working together -best we can tell"
> 
> The above has been passed around in commercial circles for a few months.
> One reason out of state beekeepers have had reservations on sending hives to California.
> 
> The long range weather report on U.S. Farm Report ( 90 day) is for above normal for the Dakotas & normal for the Midwest and Texas.
> 
> Years with above normal snow fall are always big clover years. Current prices for bulk honey is in the buck fifty range with reports of small drum losts going for as high as $2 a pound.
> 
> The above post is off topict:
> Ernie
> 
> A commercial beekeeper in the south said he is booked solid for nuc sales ( $95 ).
> 
> Although California is a big part of many out of state beekeepers income the high fees paid might look so good if the bees come back in trouble. ( thinking out loud)
> 
> Now many on the list might argue about the current issue being contagious and two pathogens working together but what if the researchers are correct?


t:


----------



## BEES4U

Saturday, February 20, 2010

The bee shortage in the almonds is real.
I am now getting calls to fill in the shortages of those that have been inspected in the almond and plum pollination sets.

Ernie


----------



## Missoura

Bees4u,

The shortage is real but over 95% of growers are getting bees. By my figures less than 5% did not.
Enough of a shortage to make growers sign contracts early next year and not be so reluctant to pay fees.
If the shortage had been huge then those Mexican beekeepers attending U.S. conventions would get the opening they have been waiting for!


----------



## Matt Beekman

Missoura said:


> Bees4u,
> 
> The shortage is real but over 95% of growers are getting bees. By my figures less than 5% did not.
> Enough of a shortage to make growers sign contracts early next year and not be so reluctant to pay fees.
> If the shortage had been huge then those Mexican beekeepers attending U.S. conventions would get the opening they have been waiting for!


Based on what I am seeing, hearing etc., a 10-15% shortage is probably more accurate. The specific number I keep hearing is we are 200,000 colonies short statewide. 

I think the question that needs to be asked is: How many healthy/strong colonies are we short? I don't know for sure, but I would guess it is easily between 400,000 - 600,000. 

Just my $0.02.


----------



## Missoura

Matt,
Could be you are right. I have heard of losses but none which would reach those figures.
If so then I expect the almond growers will look elsewhere for hives next year to fill the possible void.
Canada?
Mexico?
Most large pollination contracts are not given to a single beekeeper. My largest apple contract is split between two commercial beekeepers with a third for backup.
The reason is the orchard has been in business since the 20's and they have been burned before and found using several beekeepers the safest way to be sure of getting bees. The orchard contracts bees a year in advance. 

the trust placed in U.S. beekeepers that we could always supply their needs might be gone as far as almonds?

The curious thing Matt is there was little talk of problems at the ABF convention in January which would make me believe that most problems happened over the last month.

Would you agree?


----------



## Tom G. Laury

There are more than a few orchards with poor, few, or no bees, but from what I know they are the ones with the lowball payments, like $120. If the price for pollination had been in the $150 range there would have been many more available.


----------



## Matt Beekman

Missoura said:


> The curious thing Matt is there was little talk of problems at the ABF convention in January which would make me believe that most problems happened over the last month.
> 
> Would you agree?


Most of the problems may have manifested in the last month; but many of the beekeepers I have talked with were suspecting a shortage because the honey crop was light and late in a lot of the upper midwest. Honey production was extremely poor in California all last year. The net result was malnourished bees that got treated for mites late. 

The 2010 almond pollination season is classic screwy beekeeper economics: The demand for bees increased, the supply of bees decreased, our costs as beekeepers increased due to more supplemental feeding and we lowered our prices for almond pollination. :applause:


----------



## Nick Noyes

I would like to hear of a grower who signed a $150 (or more) contract last fall who is going without bees. It takes the above number maybe even more to put those big healthy hives into almonds.
Don't get me wrong I heard some horror stories on crashing bees but we seem to forget about all the acreage that came into production this year. I have seen very little orchards being pulled only planted.
The beekeepers in the U.S. can and will supply the needed bees for almond pollination but it can't be done for $110 a hive.


----------



## JohnK and Sheri

Missoura said:


> I have heard of losses but none which would reach those figures.
> If so then I expect the almond growers will look elsewhere for hives next year to fill the possible void.


If growers want bees they need to offer enough money to make it worth while sending them. With the talk of only paying $80 some beeks will just decide to stay home. This year, some did. I don't feel sorry for growers who gambled on desperate beeks renting at any offered lowball price. I hope they got what they wanted to pay this year....not enough. Thinking they can sit back and have bees delivered to their doorstep without a firm commitment on price might not be the most brilliant business plan, considering the necessity of those bees.

The ones I _do_ sympathize with are any growers, brokers and/or beekeepers who had contracts in place and because of bee losses now have shortfalls.

Sheri


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## Tom G. Laury

*Talk of Paying*

Sheri; with the talk of paying $120 many elected to stay put. $80 is not a factor.


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## Missoura

Matt
"The net result was malnourished bees that got treated for mites late"

If thats really all that is going on then maybe the industry will survive.

*If* what is really going on is as some researchers suggest then I think we have a serious problem.

I am with Tom that money was not the issue in why many out of state beeks decided to turn down offers as high as $200 for hive with as little as 2 frames of bees. Fear of returning with health issues is what I was told.

I guess I might as well say whats on my mind.

Losing 50-90% of your hives because you would not pull supers and feed your bees syrup and pollen pattties is PPB (P--- Poor Beekeeping) in my book.

Lossing bees because of:

"its contagious ,and its two pathogens working together best that we can tell"

The above taken from a CCD working group member email sent to me *might* be a better hypothesis as the commercial beekeepers left standing today are very professional.


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## Matt Beekman

Missoura said:


> Lossing bees because of:
> 
> "its contagious ,and its two pathogens working together best that we can tell"
> 
> The above taken from a CCD working group member email sent to me *might* be a better hypothesis as the commercial beekeepers left standing today are very professional.


What two pathogens are you referring to?


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## Nick Noyes

$200 for 2 framers? I hope he sent them.


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## Missoura

Matt,
I could guess but even agreement between those researching the problem as to which pathogens are involved does not exist.
More important a solution does not yet exist.

I will leave the research to those most capable but will say the researcher which sent ME the email is very well respected and has been involved from the start of the problem

If you pick apart the current message being put forward the fact that the group is now saying they believe after several years of research that two pathogens working together are at the root of the problem to me its not all that surprising as tests seem to eliminate a single pathogen as the source of dying hives ( CCD?).

The above hypothesis dates back to 2006.

What *is* new information is:
"Its contagious"

dictionary:

contagious:
1.Transmissible by contact, as a disease.

Of course as commercial beekeepers the above is the LAST thing we want to hear and my lifelong friends in the USDA-ARS have been slow to confirm the above knowing beekeepers will say. Can't be! Surely not.
Denial is the first reaction.

Then when the *possibility* that we are looking at a contagious problem sets in the reality of the issue being more than simply a problem solved by patties, feed and better mite control hits home.

Hopefully Matt is right in what he has posted. PPB. If so the contagious and two pathogens scenario is much to do about nothing.

If not my friends the industry is in for a few rough years till researchers figure this out.

I might share a final bit of information shared to me by researchers. 
The two pathogens are in most operations today and are showing up in the form of bees not wintering good and poor honey crops. However when stressed then you see hive crashes.

*contagious* puts the problem in your bees and stress brings the problem out *but* in the opinion of many researchers the record poor honey crops and dead hives we are now seeing is simply a symptom.

Matt i have done the best I know to explain what is being explained to many beekeepers seeing hive loss today in California.

Please do not try and kill the messenger!


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## Missoura

Nick,
Beekeepers in the Midwest never put 2 framers or even 4 frames on a load to almonds this time of year. Right away I knew I was talking to a dumb almond grower.
All our hives headed to almonds need to be 8-9 frames to ship. Even then hives on the front of the flatbed might freeze. Some drivers drive 80 MPH and up across I 80 in Montana & Wyoming. We used to follow the loads out! 
We always tarp the front but even the tarp might not always be enough.

Another reason we had issue with the current deal was the hives were going into the north almonds and we need the hives back no later than March 15th for apples. One year we had to rent bees to fill apples because hives near Kermin were three days late getting back.

What if I dug these hives out of snow and ice ( ice storm today and power just came back on) and being unable to get all the weeds of the pallets the load was turned at the border? Turned for small hive beetle?

I wish beekeeping was as easy for me as you California and border states beekeepers.

I first took ( notice i said took) hives into almonds for forty dollars a hive and made money. No problems then and used no broker. Dealt with the grower on a handshake. Paid for all hives including deadouts because the hives were so strong. We made three trips to unload & feed, place in almonds and last to remove and load semis.

We were paid half on placement and the rest when bees were removed.
Wonderful experience!

THEN:
Then we went to staying home and using brokers. Grading and reported deadouts on arrival. 

In my opinion if you want the job done right you do it yourself. 

Last year the number of hives the broker said did not draw pollination fee changed 4 times and final payment came last month for 2008. The broker was going through a divorce he said.

Nick the $200 offer was real and I would sell hives on pallets for $200 a hive if I was getting out of commercial beekeeping but this is my fifty year in beekeeping year so would like to complete this year before retiring.


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## Keith Jarrett

Missoura said:


> Nick,
> Beekeepers in the Midwest never put 2 framers or even 4 frames on a load to almonds this time of year.
> .


Are you kidding me! 

I would read that box of frosted flakes again.


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## Mike. T.

as to the two pathagons one researcher i heard talk last week in fresno said it looked like it was nosema c. and the other pathagon they have yet to name he is just refering to it as the beast, he says their is nothing out their that looks or acts like the beast, but when you get both pathagons working at the same time it just destroys your hives, so far the only thing we can do is keep our nosema spores down.


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## mbholl

Saw semi load of hives heading north I-5, near the grapevine. Guess still plenty of bloom to come.


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## Beeslave

I'm seeing plenty of almond orchards(in almost full bloom) around Chowchilla and La Grande with no bees except for what their neighbors(different groves, different owners) have. Looks like the growers with bees will be sueing those without for stealing(not suppling their own) their pollinators.


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## BEES4U

Beeslave said:


> Looks like the growers with bees will be sueing those without for stealing(not suppling their own) their pollinators.


I do not think that will happen because bees are wild by nature.
Some one droped the ball in that almond growing area.
Ernie


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## Beeslave

Directly from an almond growers mouth- Growers without bees will be sued by those that do. This was from a grower that has been sued for not suppling his orchard with enough bees in the past. Sad to see.


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## 123456789

Beeslave said:


> Directly from an almond growers mouth- Growers without bees will be sued by those that do. This was from a grower that has been sued for not suppling his orchard with enough bees in the past. Sad to see.


You can sue for pretty much anything, doesn't mean you win. Unless there is a law requiring you to bring in bees (which there isn't) it's just someone talking nonsense.


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## Beeslave

I'm not a grower just a messenger. There is still a big shortage of bees.


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## Tom G. Laury

The bees are sure doin good in places with 10acres/colony.


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## Beeslave

Tom,
Will you have to super them?


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## loggermike

Yummm, love that almond honey


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## BEES4U

It's time to brake out the frames of foundation and make some good use of the almond honey.

Almond pollen traps too.
Ernie


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## RDY-B

grow boxes for mating nucs :thumbsup::thumbsup: RDY-B


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## suttonbeeman

If you love almond honey you have funny taste buds!


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## loggermike

Just being funny. I suppose there is probably someone somewhere who could eat the stuff. If I have a greenhorn with me, I always gouge out a piece of new comb and tell them to try this wonderful honey.
But really, I do love almond honey and pollen for the buildup. There is a darn good reason the queen and package businesses in Ca are near the orchards.
But this is t:
The good news is everyone I know rented all their hives.


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## jjgbee

2-26-10 I was called by a grower TODAY wanting 200 hives.


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## Beeslave

With the shortage of bees someone has a market for that surplus almond honey beeing produced.
http://www.beefolks.com/shopdisplay...Almond+Honey&gclid=CJ6myaCRk6ACFQnxDAodzC9itg


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## loggermike

$60 a gallon.WOW
Maybe its like manuka honey, tastes awful but is priced like gold!


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## Laurence Hope

jigbee, that's amazing. Where was the grower?
I think everyone around my area is pretty well rented out to the dinks, and I still see a few orchards with either no bees or well hidden bees.


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