# Getting off the "package treadmill"



## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

Hello,
Being that it is getting to be about the time of year--already--that package orders need to be put in because of huge demand I was thinking something that should get more posts--namely getting off the package treadmill. What I mean buy that is the tread many have of just buying packages every year to cover losses. This is really alot more important than many folks around here are obsessed with the *treatment treadmill* 


If more time was spent concerned with propagation at least through splits, many new and intermediate beekeepers would have more stock to play with treatment free, top bar hives etc, but instead people waste too much time and energy only on treatment methods and alternative beekeeping first. Making more hives should really be a beekeeping basic its not that advanced or mysterious but many feel that way because they *never try it*. Part of any good treatment method is being able to recover from a failed method or experiement. That and packages are starting to get really expensive! Of course if you are completely wiped out or brand new to beekeeping this may be necessary but otherwise it is very important that every beekeeper knows how to make increase of their hives.
Just my two cents


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## Gord (Feb 8, 2011)

This should be re-posted in the spring.
You're right, but it's too late this year, and people won't remember this in the spring when they start their hives.

I more than doubled my hives this year, but only took 60 lbs of honey from 8 hives (2 deeps and 1 medium for each lang for winter), and took nothing 
from my top bar hives.
Bees cost honey or money.
I'll keep the money and take the hit in honey.
The bees will make more next year.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I hear there are beekeepers wintering nucleus colonies in the north, and getting off the package treadmill. Rumor has it this is going on everywhere fro Maine to Michigan and New York to Virginia. Can it be? 

Is there any good information on BeeSource about this, or should I just jump on the wagon and buy packaged bees from the dealers?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Xcugat..Michael... I sell bees, but, I completely agree with you. If people would really take care of them, they can make a split or two in early Spring and still not hurt the parent colony, and have the new colony for only the cost of a new queen. You could also let your split make it's own queen from queen cells you will find in the Spring, and help reduce swarming. Only problem with them making their own queen is, you lose valuable time during the Spring honey flow, but, it is valuable experience for the new beekeeper, and every newbee should do it, just for the experience. 

Get your name on the local Agriculture and Police Dept call list for swarm removal,(check with local and State requirements for this), might also want to team up with someone (if you don't have the experience) and do a cutout or trapout. Get as many free bees as you can.

If you are going to purchase, look into nucs vrs packages. Nucs are already established, queen laying, and will have a headstart on Package bees, but, they are a little more expensive. 

I agree with Gord, repost this in the Spring. Good Info. Get the discussion started again.

Will be interesting to see how the bees come through the Winter, and how many colonies we have to work with.

cchoganjr


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

@Mr. Hogan - you do realize that Michael Palmer has long been speaking out on the benefits of a "sustainable apiary" both in this forum and at bee events like EAS. Oh yes, and he produces queens and nucs that are highly sought after in my area.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

xcugat, mr. palmer was being sarcastic, here ya go:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?189642-Wintering-Nucs&highlight=overwintering


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

As much as Mr. Palmer extoles the virtues of nucs and local bees (which I too very much like), I'd like to extole the benefit of remembering what it's like starting out and maybe only having the time/money/personal resources to have, say, two hives. Very small hobby beekeepers like this shouldn't be scolded for not keeping more hives, and because local nucs/bees normally have to be ordered long in advance to ensure not being on a waiting list where one may or may not get the bees, packages are a reliable, later-orderable option. Those two factors, reliable and late-orderable, are really what makes very small beekeepers who don't want to expand use packages.

I don't want to argue about the benefits of local bees because the benefits are clear, I'm just pointing out why packages are still ordered a lot, and why those who have expanded and can cover their own losses often forget that others cannot. This is akin to giving the advice of "just give them some frames of drawn comb" to a first year beekeeper who is staring at nothing but frames of foundation.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Swarms are often available sooner and grow much better than packages.

Silly to buy bees at all IF you have swarms available for capture in your area.

Hell, I charge folks to come get them, so my new hives are making me money even before I get them home. :lpf:

AND, it's a blast catching them!




Don


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Allow me to point out that while the original post never actually used the word "*splitting*", its quite clear that that was he was referring to.



xcugat said:


> Making more hives should really be a beekeeping basic its not that advanced or mysterious but many feel that way because they *never try it*.


You can't read Beesource for very long without discovering that _Michael Palmer_ has posted _volumes _on techniques for increasing one's hive count by splitting.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

xcugat,
You are timely, so many will not start to look for bees until too late. True last year, will be true next year. Making splits out of packages is a hard game to win. Splits out of a 2nd year package, if it is alive, is only a little easier when it is hanging on itself. 

Libhart, could not have said it better.

I wish more local spring splits were available for the beginner. Even sales of one or two from locals would reduce the package need.

MP, I laughed.


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> Rumor has it this is going on everywhere fro Maine to Michigan and New York to Virginia. Can it be?


Hey don't forget us "other" northerners from the Pacific NW (WA state). I'm wintering 20 nucs this year thanks to you and some others. 

Mike


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> I hear there are beekeepers wintering nucleus colonies in the north, and getting off the package treadmill. Rumor has it this is going on everywhere fro Maine to Michigan and New York to Virginia. Can it be?
> 
> Is there any good information on BeeSource about this, or should I just jump on the wagon and buy packaged bees from the dealers?


Say it ain't so


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## urbanoutlaw (Nov 19, 2012)

libhart said:


> As much as Mr. Palmer extoles the virtues of nucs and local bees (which I too very much like), I'd like to extole the benefit of remembering what it's like starting out and maybe only having the time/money/personal resources to have, say, two hives. Very small hobby beekeepers like this shouldn't be scolded for not keeping more hives, and because local nucs/bees normally have to be ordered long in advance to ensure not being on a waiting list where one may or may not get the bees, packages are a reliable, later-orderable option. Those two factors, reliable and late-orderable, are really what makes very small beekeepers who don't want to expand use packages.
> 
> I don't want to argue about the benefits of local bees because the benefits are clear, I'm just pointing out why packages are still ordered a lot, and why those who have expanded and can cover their own losses often forget that others cannot. This is akin to giving the advice of "just give them some frames of drawn comb" to a first year beekeeper who is staring at nothing but frames of foundation.


Interesting topic for me, an aspiring beekeeper with limited funds. Local nucs are not only expensive, but already sold-out. The downside of having so many newcomers to the hobby is lack of contacts/increased competition for limited resources. I'll count myself lucky if I'm able to catch a swarm, but chances are someone like myself will have to shell out the cash for a package and do the best they can.

Hopefully the hobby will evolve to deal with the increased interest soon.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Packages do much better than overwintered hives or splits. Although we sell, produce, and use both packages and splits I am convinced that the extra work and expense with the packages is outweighed by the "umph" they exhibit compared to all other forms of increase.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> should I just jump on the wagon and buy packaged bees from the dealers?


I don't know if word gets out about this thread the guys that shake packages might not even bother this year! Here in Florida it's hard enough to overwinter Nucs when they will only fly and take feed for a couple hours during our coldest days.The constant mite pressures, hurricanes and high heat and humidity make them a great choice for survivor stock if you can find them!

(Thanks for your contributions, I enjoy your post)


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

most of my increase this year came from overwintered nucs, although i got a few from splits and swarms.

luckily, overwintered losses are not high in my area.

now that i have gotten close to my 20 hive capacity, i won't overwinter nucs again, but rather rely on splits and swarms to fill in the gaps.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I think that there is a bit of a misconception among some northeners that southern beekeeping is a panacea. While they do get milder winters and much earlier springs that is offset by the mite challenges that result from longer seasons and quite often long hot summers with a dearth of nectar. I love the benefits of getting bees down south for the winter but I hesitate to ever move them there too early as I prefer to see the queens shut down up north first.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Outcomes with a package are a crap shoot. A drone layer is a package quality issue. A package installed in a warm spell with flowers everywhere will probably do well. A package installed before 2 weeks of rain and cold is going to struggle for a long time, without drawn comb a really long time. Not my first choice but often the only choice. Try for a nuc, but count on a package to a least arrive.
A swarm here is so rare it makes the news, not counting on that.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Just upped my order for packages. went from 900 to 1200 packages. With the big honey shortage, the price of honey will go up again this year. The GOLD RUSH is on. Some have the time to try things and see. Well for me I'm not getting any younger. Would love to try some new things, but if you have something that works and works well why change.:digging: LOVE THIS ICON.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

jim, very good point about the mites. lost one this fall from them, but will keep a watchful eye next year...:thumbsup:


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

It looks as though this thread may be a day late....on the Rossman website it appears that their packages are already spoken for until May. Either there is an issue with supply or the demand is greater than ever.
And then there are the BWeavers and their $130 packages.
It is absolutely amazing.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> mite challenges


And maybe even more challenging are the small hive beetles.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Reputable package dealers will replace drone layers. Most times package producers are also queen producers.
And there is absolutely no reason for a package to struggle, no matter the weather. When installing a package, the first thing one should do is feed it! You feed it until it has at least 10 frames of drawn comb. Personally, I feed my package installations, or splits, until they either quit taking it, or have drawn two deeps of comb. that way I know they're well established before I have to worry about winter. 

If one does a walk away split, you make your increase, without even the cost of a queen.  But even then, I feed feed feed until the hive is built up. I want to give them every chance possible to succeed, and not stress them when I don't have to.
Regards,
Steven


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## DLMKA (Feb 7, 2012)

I just started keeping bees this spring. Bought a package and a nuc and then had the good fortune to catch 6 swarms and do a trap-out that left me with 9 colonies. Surely out of those I'll at least have a couple that make it through and I can replace losses with splits or more swarms. I'm done buying packages.


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

It's the a similiar situation to southerns who come up north in winter and are horrified it's 40 degrees out when us northerns are quite happy it's 40 something out in December because this isn't normal for us. The same is true of bees. Bees who are use to the Florida and Texas heat aren't equipped/don't understand northern winter and vice versa. Thanks to the forums I made the smart move to get local bees who are looking for food as we speak, not foraging just lazy and want they're top feeder filled.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

TheBuzz said:


> local bees who are looking for food as we speak, not foraging just lazy and want they're top feeder filled.


This is only a good thing if there is something for them to forage on. Otherwise...it is wasted energy....more consumption of stores....and an increased chance of starvation before spring.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Andrew Dewey..No I do not personally know Mr. Palmer, but, if he is saying and doing as you wrote, good for him. Wish more would do that. We could all do more to help others.

cchoganjr


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

I guess I should have checked this thread this morning.....
IF you really NEED a package get your orders in soon but they are getting silly expensive 

In my first post, I was referring to splitting pre existing hives for everyone that has them--even if you dont really need another hive it is really good insurance for to keep your hive total constant if something goes wrong. Michael they are raising bees north of the Carolinas? I thought everyone up your way just hibernated all winter. Oh and what is a search function I really need to have a complete new thread about how beekeeping is an extremely cheap hobby....
--I wasn't referring to you obviously in this post that would really be preaching to the choir leader, but other beekeepers need to consider increase a top priority not a secondary one as many do. 
This is really for your second year and over beekeepers to keep as a mentality going forward. Treatments and techniques are all well and good but if you do not have bees you can not experiment with any thing. Also for those who want to save some cash you can really save alot by expanding with splits instead of forking over package cash


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> If people would really take care of them, they can make a split or two in early Spring and still not hurt the parent colony, and have the new colony for only the cost of a new queen.


Very well said Cleo, we push the pollen sub & syrup, not because we sell it, but, because it's the cheapest way to keep bees. You can take care of what you have in the late summer thru fall or you can spend a bundle next spring. I would rather not pack all that equipment from the field to the shop just to turn around next spring and pack it all back out to the field and fill it up.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

xcugat said:


> If more time was spent concerned with propagation at least through splits, many new and intermediate beekeepers would have more stock to play with treatment free, top bar hives etc, but instead people waste too much time and energy only on treatment methods and alternative beekeeping first. Making more hives should really be a beekeeping basic its not that advanced or mysterious but many feel that way because they *never try it*.


What a load of 
Package beekeeping is all about economics, managing work load and filling in losses.
Supply and demand, thats the basics of business, 
Would you not say the same thing about these small and intermediate beekeepers needing packages for for treatment free, and top bar hives ?
Package beekeeping is as very important tool for commercial beekeepers and the package industry has build around the commercial beekeeping industry.


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

Ok Ian--dont get excited-but I think you are misreading my post completely the point is that the people who want to try alternative beekeeping methods would be better served and have alot more money in their pockets if they worked on standard beekeeping first, built up some numbers in stock and then experimented with other techniques that may result in failure but are important experimental learning experiences rather than blindly forking over money for packages.

I have no beef with the package producers they are only meeting a need for their biggest and most important customers--the commercial beekeeping industry. I purposely did not include them *at all* in this whole discussion--they are dealing with economies of a much bigger scale and have commitments to meet with pollinators etc. Just looking at the responses here other than Honey Householder and Michael Palmer I would argue that most of the people on this forum are not commercial beekeepers, or even side-liners, but rather hobbyists. As hobbyists it should be required knowledge to know how to make a few extra hives each year at least with walk away splits if nothing else

That being said, since you have brought up the commercial beekeeper/package producing relationship I will bite:
I would argue that the bees that have been met to meet the commercial demands of today--huge and fast population buildup for pollination, honey production and so on have resulted in a less resilient bee for all of us who occasionally have to by these same packages. Its nobody's fault per se but rather the whole industry model. The commercial producer would like his bees to live year after year--it would be hugely cheaper, but longevity and disease resistance and winter hardiness are not the key breeding characteristics that get pollination contracts filled and paid. If I remember correctly Honey Householder dont you sell your bees each year and start fresh each season--the commercial model is very different than the hobbyist one.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

Winter losses = empty boxes. Empty boxes = swarm traps. Swarm traps = more bees. No packages. No splits.

That's my plan for now at least. Though if I have empty boxes after prime swarm season I might sacrifice some honey and do a split or two.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Luterra said:


> Winter losses = empty boxes. Empty boxes = swarm traps. Swarm traps = more bees. No packages. No splits.
> 
> That's my plan for now at least. Though if I have empty boxes after prime swarm season I might sacrifice some honey and do a split or two.


good plan. if you have enough hives, find 'cut down spit' on mike bush's site and try it out on one.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

xcugat said:


> producers they are only meeting a need for their biggest and most important customers--the commercial beekeeping industry. I purposely did not include them *at all* in this whole discussion--they are dealing with economies of a much bigger scale and have commitments to meet with pollinators etc. Just looking at the responses here other than Honey Householder and Michael Palmer I would argue that most of the people on this forum are not commercial beekeepers, or even side-liners, but rather hobbyists. As hobbyists it should be required knowledge to know how to make a few extra hives each year at least with walk away splits if nothing else


pretty much every beekeeper uses splits and nucs in their operation. I think you are absolutely out to lunch on that fact. That is the very basic of beekeeping.
Packages come into the equation for other reasons, and because beekeepers use packages within their annual management strategy does not make that strategy wrong. A whole industry I built around that strategy


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

Yes but it seems that you are commercial if you have an Industry which as I have repeatedly said is not part of this discussion, and no I would not say that splits are basic in beekeeping. I help many newbees in my area who have no idea about splitting hives at all


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

xcugat said:


> Ok Ian--dont get excited- .....
> I would argue that the bees that have been met to meet the commercial demands of today--huge and fast population buildup for pollination, honey production and so on have resulted in a less resilient bee for all of us who occasionally have to by these same packages. Its nobody's fault per se but rather the whole industry model. The commercial producer would like his bees to live year after year--it would be hugely cheaper, but longevity and disease resistance and winter hardiness are not the key breeding characteristics that get pollination contracts filled and paid. If I remember correctly Honey Householder dont you sell your bees each year and start fresh each season--the commercial model is very different than the hobbyist one.


Yes the commercial beekeeping model is extremely un natural and we are asking soo much from the bees. But it is the model we beekeepers have decided to follow, and a good thing in fact. Otherwise I would not be able to make a living off beekeeping. Bees dont naturally live in my area. But with the success of modern day agriculture, there are vast acres of flowering crops here, which I can pull hundreds of lbs of honey per hive from, and make a good living from. I need to keep bees in an un natural state, as in I need to manage the hive throughout the year to exploit all the characteristics to keep them going here. That management strategy sometimes needs the ability to buy in packages.

your blaming commercials for not raising their own stock rising the prices on packages so that smaller beekeepers have to pay more for their packages, yet the commercial package industry lives off of commercial patronage


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

xcugat said:


> Yes but it seems that you are commercial if you have an Industry which as I have repeatedly said is not part of this discussion, and no I would not say that splits are basic in beekeeping. I help many newbees in my area who have no idea about splitting hives at all


okay, I must of mis read your opening comments,


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

deleted redundant


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Some beekeeping clubs in Virginia have been bringing in packages to meet the needs of new beekeepers over a period of years. The bees mostly from Georgia, where there is now a threat of africanised bee intrusion. So our local club has decided to produce nuc's to meet this need and try to minimize the possibility of bringing in AHB to uour bee population. That is the plan and it remains to be seen how it will work out.
Johno


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Hey, I started this stupid hobby that keeps growing..............with a package of bees!! And even then I screwed up a bit on the installation due to being so nervous!! I could only imagine how bad I would have looked if I would have just caught a swarm to start!! 

Of course since then I have caught numerous swarms, made nucs and so on, so I wont be buying bees again..............but I also have the luxury of living in swarm central!! If all my hives were to die out over winter it would suck, but I know spring is just around the corner and the calls for swarms will be blowing up my phone!! And with all the drawn comb, there will be a very good jump start for them!!

On another note, I really dont like the disrespect shown to major contributers to this site like Cleo and Palmer, stuff like that will make them go away and the wealth of knowledge will be lost. There are other major contributers that dont post much because of people like Acebird telling them they are wrong in one way or another.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

If packages are working for you, you are not on the treadmill. If they are not working for you then you are.
I need a bee that can stand up to certain amount of neglect. Sometimes health means I am not going to do what I know I should. Sometimes it is just choosing to replace those windows instead of the bees. My bad.

A package bee is like a Holstein when I need a Longhorn. I do not blame the Holstein or the supplier. I am trying to make due with the not quite a good fit for me. The package industry does not need me, the local guy who buys bulk packages and sells singles probably earns his money in questions asked and answered. Not trying to take his spot for certain or disparage him at all.

My take on the start of this posts was simply to encourage those who, like many, have kept bees for years and never tried a split or nuc. By no means are all of them on a package treadmill either. There was no claim of new insights, just a call to give it a try.


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

Saltybee said:


> If packages are working for you, you are not on the treadmill. If they are not working for you then you are.
> I need a bee that can stand up to certain amount of neglect. Sometimes health means I am not going to do what I know I should. Sometimes it is just choosing to replace those windows instead of the bees. My bad.
> 
> A package bee is like a Holstein when I need a Longhorn. I do not blame the Holstein or the supplier. I am trying to make due with the not quite a good fit for me. The package industry does not need me, the local guy who buys bulk packages and sells singles probably earns his money in questions asked and answered. Not trying to take his spot for certain or disparage him at all.
> ...


BINGO you got it!! Salty I hope most people took it this way in the first place!


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Everyone who keeps bees should be able to make splits and overwinter nucs. I'm going to learn to do this next year (provided my bees survive the winter this time), and want to try to over-winter a couple nucs next year. I believe this is basic beekeeping. This is not to say one must do lots of splits every year and overwinter a pile of nucs, but one should know how at least, and plan to have a couple replacments available to keep hive numbers up to whatever one wants. 

It gets expensive for a hobby beek to buy packages for things like trying a top bar hive -- it's not a buisiness expense, it's a hobby, and a couple hundred bucks can be a lot. With a bit of planning, one can get the bees from a split or shaken swarm from one's own hives, much cheaper. Besides, I think a cut-down split might be a great way to reduce swarming and increase honey production at the same time around here.

It may indeed be necessary for commercial beeks to buy large numbers of packages, I don't know I don't plan to have more than 5 or six hives for the forseeable future (although that may change). However, the commercial beekeeper up the road doesn't buy queens or packages -- he feels that the typical Southern queen is poorly adapted to this area, where we need queens that shut down quickly in a dearth. We almost always have a month or two in the summer where it's hot and dry with little or no nectar available, but often good fall flow. He gets his bees from splits and collecting swarms locally, and so far I'm of the same opinion. The two hives I started this spring from swarms did quite well in spite of a terrible heat wave most of the summer, and look pretty good going into winter.

Peter


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>A package bee is like a Holstein when I need a Longhorn. I do not blame the Holstein or the supplier.

The package is as good as the queen that comes with it. Five weeks and those bees are dead, the new hive rises from the queen
bingo, you have a new hive


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Ian said:


> Package beekeeping is all about economics, managing work load and filling in losses.
> Supply and demand, thats the basics of business,
> Would you not say the same thing about these small and intermediate beekeepers needing packages for for treatment free, and top bar hives ?
> Package beekeeping is as very important tool for commercial beekeepers and the package industry has build around the commercial beekeeping industry.



Ian, have you read Vickery's book? He taught beekeeping for many years and was professor emeritus in entomology at McGill. He passed away in 2011. 

He wintered nucleus colonies and wrote the bit below, probably in response to the border closure for package bees from the US. 


*****************

Vickery, V.R., The Honey Bee, 1991, Particle Press

Nucleus Colonies

Starting with nucleus colonies is a relatively new practice in eastern Canada but the future for beekeepers who supply nucleus colonies looks bright. I produced nucleus colonies in Quebec from 1974 to 1977 to prove that they are a reasonable alternative to importing package bees. p. 89

Wintering Nucleus Colonies

Nucleus colonies can be wintered very well and can provide the entire answer to the dis appearing supply of “package bees”. Nucleus colonies will invariably build up more quickly and produce more honey than colonies started from “package bees”. Inside wintering of nucleus colonies is recommended for prairie beekeepers. (Gruszka, 1985)If the nucs are made up early enough (July) they can be wintered successfully in single brood chambers outside, even in the severe winters experienced in Saskatchewan. Nucs made up in August with two combs of brood can be built up, fed and wintered as four-frame nucs outside on the top of a multiple colony pack (fig.13.12). Two four-frame nucleus hives are set in the place of one single brood chamber hive. The two hives are slightly narrower than the full sized super and I routinely use a slab of one inch (2.5 cm) Styrofoam to fill in the space on the exposed side or sides. To date this method has worked very well (Vickery and Willis, 1985). p. 204


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Chicken or Egg...

Which came first, the package colony or the wintered nucleus colony.

Packages:

Pellett, Frank C., History of American Beekeeping, 1938. The Collegiate Press, Inc., p. 167

In the May, 1879, issue of _Gleanings in Bee Culture_, A. I. Root proposed a revolutionary idea-the sale of live bees by the pound. He had lost many of his bees, and had nearly a ton of honey in sealed combs just right for building up new colonies. He thought that if he could buy live bees by the quart, it would be a practical means of re-establishing his apiary. By counting and weighing a hundred bees, he came to the conclusion that a quart of bees would weigh approximately a pound, and proposed to pay a dollar a pound for live bees delivered to him at shipper's risk. 
He even went so far as to devise a cage in which they might be shipped...

Wintered Nucleus Colonies:

The dates of publication post date the actual management...

This from Miller, but referenced in the 1891 edition of ABC of Bee Culture...I have wintered many colonies, two in a hive, with a 3/8-inch division between, and I have always found the two colonies practically in one cluster. p. 385

Miller, Dr. C. C., Fifty Years Among the Bees, 1911, The A. I. Root Company

The frames for nuclei are the regular full sized frames, and a full hive may be used for each nucleus, but it is economy to have the hive divided up into two or three compartments for as many nuclei. P. 247

Now, if during the time I have mentioned, we can have two colonies in one hive, we shall, I think, find in advantageous in more than one direction. It is a common thing for bee-keepers to unite two weak colonies in the fall. Suppose a bee-keeper has two weak colonies in the fall, each occupying two combs. He unites them so they will winter better. If they would not quarrel and would stay wherever they were put, he could place the two frames of the one hive beside the two frames in the other hive, and the thing would be done. Now, suppose that a thin division-board were placed between the two sets of combs, would that not see the same result? Not quite, I think, but nearly so. They would hardly be so warm as without the division-board, but nearly so; and both queens would be saved. In the spring it is desirable to keep the bees warm. If two colonies are in one hive, with a thin division board between them, they will be much warmer than if in separate hives. The same thing is true in winter. I have had weak nuclei with two combs come through in good condition during a winter in which I lost heavily; these nuclei having no extra care or protection other than being in a double hive. You would understand the reason of all this easily if in winter you would look into one of these double hives in the cellar. On each side the bees are clustered up against the division-board, and it looks exactly as if the bees had all been in one single cluster, and then the division-board pushed down, through the center of the cluster. P. 300

And this from Root in the 1891 ABC, but same report in the first edition in 1879... 

Root, A. I., ABC of Bee Culture, 1891, A. I. Root Co.

Nucleus, This word, applied to bee culture, signifies a small swarm of bees, perhaps from one-fourth to one-tenth of a full colony. p. 204

If we are to have this [a] quart of bees work to the best advantage, something depends upon the sort of hive they are domiciled in. A single comb, long and narrow, so as to string the bees out in one thin cluster, is very bad economy. Two combs would do very much better, but three would be a great deal better still. It is like scattering the firebrands widely apart; one alone will soon go out; two placed side by side will burn quite well; and three will make quite a fire. It is on this account that I would have a nucleus of three, instead of one or two frames. The bees seem to seek naturally a space between two combs; and the queen seldom goes to the outside comb of a hive, unless she is obliged to for want of room. p. 205

If desired, two nuclei can be put in one hive, by using a tight division-board, and making the entrances at either end. Of course, when we use hives with a division-board between two colonies, great care should be used in making the division-board tight. I do not know how many failures have resulted from having the board shrink or warp, and thus let the bees through. p. 206

A sheet of enameled cloth, hemmed at the side and ends, is made to lie over the frames, as in the large hives, but the cover is made to shut over the hive. p. 206

If you will examine the bees at the approach of frosty weather, you will see, from the way in which they draw up and condense, how their combs need to be proportioned. To have them stand the rigors of severe winter weather, they should fill their hives as nearly as possible, and there should be no cold, unfilled spaces, either at the ends or underneath the cluster. If their hive is so full that bees are standing in the doorway, even during severe cold weather, we need have little fear of their suffering. p. 204-205


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

It seems to me that the North American beekeepers were spoiled by the package bee industry. When Canada closed their border to US packages, wintering nucleus colonies became an important supply of spring bees...yes, Australian packages too. 

Now that the demand for package bees is far greater than the industry can make available...in a timely fashion, nucleus colonies are becoming a good option. Yes, of course, spring splits are an option, but if you keep bees in the north, splitting a strong colony can mean major loss of honey crop...unless the season is perfect. Both the split colony and the split have a hard time building up in cold, dam weather, or in drought.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I may have just gotten lucky. But I saw several presentations on nucs via video right along with my research on hives in general. For me it resulted in a nuc not being a strange idea but just another way to keep bees. 
It is nothing to see people favor 8 frame med over 10 frame deeps.so whats the issue if you go to 5 frame deep or even 4 frame shallow? I don't have the time to figure it right now but it would be interesting to see the progression in terms of frame area.
To me it makes since to pick a box that your bees fit in to some degree. a weak colony in a 10 frame deep may do just fine in a 5 frame deep. It is just another dimension for a hive. so keep it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Michael Palmer said:


> It seems to me that the North American beekeepers were spoiled by the package bee industry. When Canada closed their border to US packages, wintering nucleus colonies became an important supply of spring bees...yes, Australian packages too.
> 
> Now that the demand for package bees is far greater than the industry can make available...in a timely fashion, nucleus colonies are becoming a good option. Yes, of course, spring splits are an option, but if you keep bees in the north, splitting a strong colony can mean major loss of honey crop...unless the season is perfect. Both the split colony and the split have a hard time building up in cold, dam weather, or in drought.


Michael, Im well aware of the boarder situation, that deal is well out of my hands. Thats a whole different topic on its own. I would not say we were spoiled with packages. Package honey production was a very efficient method of managing a northern honey op. And I still believe that fact to this day. We will spend endless energy and money trying to manage our hives to make winter. Feed, time, treatments, facilities . . . . 
There is a good place for package ops, especially today,

But the boarder is closed, and my options are limited. Packages from over seas are very expensive. So my op uses both nuc colonies and packages to manage wintering losses. 
Most years, where as I can manage a 10% or a 15% winter loss, my bees are in good shape, so I am able to make up splits to replace those losses. Those years I am also able to shave down my larger hives to make up nucs for replacement stock the year ahead.

But thats when Im able to keep my losses manageable and thats when my hives are robust. 

I have kept bees during years of 35% losses, and I have had trouble building colonies to strength let alone makeing up nucs. Those years I have empty brood boxes, and i buy in packages to fill them. Its not like I have a choice in the matter, its buying packages or having empty boxes. 

Making up nucs is a luxury of plentiful bees. And we gear ourselves so that when we see any possibility of directing some strength into nucs we get busy. But years where we see high losses year after year, where we fight the weather and battle disease to get our hives up to strength, packages fall right into place.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Package bees will always have their place as NUC colonies will always have their place as well.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I would like to broaden the thread request; To all who do their own replacements. My son's neighbor wintered 3 hives and combined back to the two maximum she wanted if all made it. Her bees were at least 3 years local . I tried to get a nuc, frame or just the old doomed queen. No. Now her bees did not survive the divorce. I would have given her stock back to reload after things settled down again.
If you carry over a few more than the max you desire, consider passing them on. If you do not want to be known as a source please use someone as a strawman.
No I am not passing out new wisdom, just repeating the thought.


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

BUMP Get off the treadmill this year and do some splits! (Not the kind that will put you in traction...)


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## smith (Mar 7, 2009)

I dunno. We've gone to making splits from our strongest colonies each spring. We let them raise their own queens. It hasn't really cut back the production of the mother colonies, and we haven't experienced any swarming in over 5 years. We manage the splits to be at a minimum two large brood boxes, one full of honey, by fall. In some cases we may even get 1or 2 supers off them as well. If a colony goes queenless, we combine one of the splits in. It's just nice having young colonies in reserve and not having to order packages or nucs of dubious quality.


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## good11s (Feb 17, 2013)

Unfortunately, I had 100% loss this winter (both hives) and I am forced to replenish with package bees. (Coming on Friday, YAY!!) However, depending on how this season goes, I would love to investigate splitting and/or wintering Nucs. I am a very new beek (going into my second year); anyone have some links to the how, why, when on splits.

Plus, I live in Urban Utah, I don't think I have ever heard of swarms (dang it!).


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I plan to do splits next weekend from two or three hives (have to check to make sure the third hive isn't superseding the queen at the moment). I think this is a great way to reduce swarming and to do increases, particularly since you can take them from hive you like rather than gambling that a queen and a couple shakes of bees will make a good hive. Usually works, but not always.

I'm also going to try to pull a couple summer splits to make over-wintering nucs. I want a few more hives and I'm sure with four or five I'll have at least one fail to get through to spring.

I don't know how I would feel if I had several thousand hives to manage though.

Peter


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Good11s, here is basically all you need to know about splits/nucs.

Michael Palmer "The Sustainable Apiary"

I recommend you switch off the HD feed, as many people have trouble watching it in HD.

http://vimeo.com/23135184
http://vimeo.com/23234196


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