# Wired Frames, and wired foundation???



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

I should have asked this earlier. I have cleaned up some old frames and put new foundation in them. They are deep frames, and I used wired foundation with four cross wires in the frames. Do the cross wires go on the same side of the foundation, or do you rotate one on one side, one on the other, and so forth? I did one set of ten with the wires on the same side, and one set rotated. I also used an electric embedder. 

Hope I did not mess up on this. (Should have asked first)

[ February 14, 2007, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Ron Young ]


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I use an electric transformer to embed the
wires into the foundation so it does not 
matter.

It's easy to do and you can use most any 12V
DC low amp transformer. Like toy railroad, or
door bell transformers. I bought a really nice
12V regulated power supply off ebay for $20.


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## JWG (Jun 25, 2004)

No need to alternate sides.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

You can also use a spur embedder, personally
I don't like them (operator error I'm sure)
and like the electric much better.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

If you are using wired foundation, why are you having to embed it?


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I thought that to Bill but then I figured it
was just an error in describing the situation.
Sounded like he has wired frames and not pre
wired foundation. Could be wrong though.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

If you're using wired foundation in wired
frames thats an "overkill" situation IMO.


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## flathead (Nov 1, 2006)

We wire on one side only and spur embed.

I cross wire the wired foundation to help hold a more flat surface(deep frames).

Sometimes attaching the wedge puts a curved surface on the foundation. Putting bobby pins along the endbars help but some frames end up with a less than flat plane in the center of the foundation.

I have an old train transformer, how do you set it up to electrically embed?


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## smoke (Jan 17, 2006)

I believe in cross wiring wired foundation. This is especially important if you intend to extract honey early the first season before the wax has "cured" or if extracting thick honey such as black locust. Maybe because of ocd, I alternate the cross wires also and spur embed them.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>If you are using wired foundation, why are you having to embed it?


The wires in wired foundation come off a roll. They have a memory...so to speak...and will have a bit of a curve. Besides adding lateral strength to the comb, embedded crosswires prevent the foundation from curving...following the curve of the vertical wires. I think 4 is a bit much, and find the two center wires to be enough.

Also...years ago, I bought out an outfit. Many of their combs had a strange "S" shape. While only a bit curved in an S shape, many were droney along the bends. I took them apart, and they had wired with the wires on opposite sides of the foundation...weaving the foundation between the horizontal wires.


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## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

To clarify, I am using crimp wired foundation, and I am wiring the frames as well. I did on set of ten frames with the cross wire on the same side of the foundation, and the other set of ten frames alternating from side to side. 

I tend to overkill everything that I do. I guess it is a personality thing.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Cross wiring will work and spur embed it.

Flathead (quite a handle!!) You just take the
leads and touch them briefly to opposite sides
of the wire. Train transformers are nice as
you can adjust the output.

Be careful and go easy. If the amps are too hot
or you touch the wires too long you'll cut the
foundation clear through. You get the hang of
it pretty quick and it works great and fast.


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

Plastic guy here with a Question(s);

In a frame with multiple horizontal wires you really just have one piece wire,correct?

Then if so, do you heat "all" the horizontals at one time, by connecting your line(power) to each end?

Does doing that create any "hot" spots?

Or,do you apply the line(power)to each horizontal seperately?

Thanks


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Then if so, do you heat "all" the horizontals at one time, by connecting your line(power) to each end?

You can. I have. It's hard to get it right doing that.

>Does doing that create any "hot" spots?

Yes. The wire heats up from either end moving toward the middle. Depending on the voltage, you can have red-hot ends while the middle of the wire is still heating up. You can also get shorts across the vertical wires which results in rapid heating of parts of the wire and little or no heating of other parts.

>Or,do you apply the line(power)to each horizontal seperately?

Better control doing it this way and it really doesn't take much longer. There is a risk of getting the wire too hot and melting holes in the wax, especially at the ends where you want the wire well embedded. What you want is enough heating to allow the wire to sink into the foundation but not so much heating that it melts all the way through.

I also sometimes, on a whim, cross-wire my frames i.e., crossing a pair of adjoining wires, it makes it easy to get good tension on the wires but it complicates electrically embedding the wires. When you do this, you pretty much have to use individual leads and heat up each leg of the X separately.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When I wire, which I usually don't even use foundation, I use this:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/WireEmbedder.JPG

on a foundation board.

This is the view from the bottom. It holds the wire down and you press the switch on the top for a few seconds (practice until you find the right timing) and let up on the switch and then after another couple of seconds remove the embedder. It holds the wire into the wax while it's being embedded and until it cools off. They are available from several sources. This one is from Walter T. Kelley. I doubled the number of tabs that hold down the wire.


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## flathead (Nov 1, 2006)

Thanks Sundance.

We tried the electric embedding with a model train transformer today and it works great.

http://zacharyfarmsllc.com/electric_embedding.htm

I can see that we will need to rig(or buy) something like MB uses to speed things up some though.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>We tried the electric embedding with a model train transformer today

That's what I use.

>I can see that we will need to rig(or buy) 

Let us know what you come up with. I just use 2 steel probes with a groove on the end made with a flat file to sit on the wire. Crude, but effective.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

WHEN I used crimped wire foundation, I was also using the "push pins" that support the foundation at the end bars. They worked well enough, though I haven't liked them for unwired foundation as buckling occurs... What I discovered is that the push pins can be reused once the comb has cured. Now when I use them, I don't fully seat them against the wood. In a season or two, when the comb is well matured, I'll pop them out for future use. 

Waya


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>WHEN I used crimped wire foundation, I was also using the "push pins" that support the foundation at the end bars.

Don't you find that the center of the comb is curved, when using push pins at the sides?


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

MP,
If you're asking if the foundation gets pushed into toward the center away from the end bars, then, YES, I have had that problem. I thought it was just me. After reusing the pins, I started flaring the tips out a bit so they don't actually pinch the foundation (which often pushes the foundation away from the endbars in the process). I like them to not necessarily Hold the foundation, rather simply keep the foundation from flopping about and keeping it tracking down the center. 

If you're talking about the foundation buckling top-to-bottom in the frame, YES, I've had that too. As I was having that happen anyway when I went to unwired SC foundation, I started trimming off 3/4 inch. This gives me enough for a starter-strip elsewhere while keeping the foundation from buckling. (and so far gives the bees space for drone cells rather than in the center of the comb.) 

Care must be taken in this last case to keep the foundation from flopping about, especially in a stiff breeze, so I do cross wire or use the pins.
(Added) But you're right. I have a half-dozen combs that had to be trimmed up to cut out the buckled portion before I found out how to fix it up. Sometimes it is due to putting the foundation in when it was past a flow and very hot. In this situation, the bees weren't in the drawing-mood, and the foundation was able to stretch and buckle under their weight. Such situations has caused me to find foundation laying all over. MB helped me out by recommending foundation to go in during the flow and when the bees will get to it right away rather than letting it get hot and stretching. 

Waya

[ February 20, 2007, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: wayacoyote ]


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>If you're talking about the foundation buckling top-to-bottom in the frame, YES, I've had that too. As I was having that happen anyway when I went to unwired SC foundation, I started trimming off 3/4 inch. 

Yes, this is what I was talking about. Probably with crimp wired foundation, it would be more noticable. The crimp wires have a curve to them anyway, and will maintain that curve and comb will be drawn out with a curve. Using your unwired, SC foundation, with 3/4" cut off is like what I do with cut comb foundation. The weight of the bees on it as they draw it out on a flow helps keep it straight.


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## Scott J. (Feb 6, 2007)

I use my car battery charger to heat the wires to embed the foundation. Set the charger to the two amp setting. I also put in a switch so that I can apply the current in a controlled manner. A deep with four wires, takes about three or four seconds to a frame


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>I use my car battery charger. Set the charger to the two amp setting.

If you have a 6v setting on your charger, use that. 12v will fry the wires.

Funny embedder story...

Had an employee from Peru. Don't think he had quite a handle on how things...like electricity from an outlet...work. He was the kind of employee that was always trying to figure out how to make things work better. Trouble with that, was you have to understand how something works, before you can improve it.

Anyway, he figured that using a transformer with my embedding device was too slow. Of course, you know what he did...yep...stuck the wires of the embedder directly into the wall outlet! Energize!!

Made quite the explosion. Did you ever see a cartoon character that just had his cigar blown up? That was Pedro.


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## Scott J. (Feb 6, 2007)

Hi Michael,
If you can set the batery charger to the 2 amp or lower setting, 12vdc will not fry the wires. Set at 6amps or higher it sure will.

If I am embedding a two wire super I will add about two feet of #20ga wire (insulated) in series to bring the resistance up so as to slow down the embeddng process.


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