# A new way to harvest honey from a top bar hive



## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

Nice idea, Ruth -- thanks for sharing!


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Love it ! If I ever fire my TBH back up I have an idea I my head to extract it would be slower than lang frames but preserve the entire comb instead of a basket that frames drop in, they would be more like a cage with a hinge on the bottom with spikes spaced out like teeth from both sides to stabilize the comb it would be spun in a radial fation so all force is directed toward the top bar of the comb


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## Cub Creek Bees (Feb 16, 2015)

Then wouldn't the honey be slung across the top of the topbar, which is from "outside" the hive?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Cub Creek Bees said:


> Then wouldn't the honey be slung across the top of the topbar, which is from "outside" the hive?


dunno, I'm not a rocket surgeon. LOL I would think that the honey would leave at the angle of the cell bypassing the bar all together and that the stickyness you normally see with regular radial commerical extractors is actually bounce back off the wall. Most have fairly close tolerances to decrease size and shipping weight. This could possibly be solved by increasing the distance between the frame and the extractor wall. If it did though , I wouldn't think it would be a big deal, most TBH have roofs so it's not like they are coated in bird poop, and most TBH people don't intend to produce enough honey to sell


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

Ruth, how well does the honey drain from the comb this way? It looks pretty effective, and I guess any remnants can be used by the bees again when you replace the comb. How did you get the comb inside without bringing any bees along with it?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

EvanS, it depends how thin you cut the cells. The thinner, the better. I just did 7 more bars today this way. It's more work than regular crush and strain, but only the top halfs were filled and capped so I was able to save most of the comb for the bees. I got slightly less than 1 gal of liquid honey off 19# comb and bars (weighed individually before I did any cutting). I can't weigh the bars after the fact because they are so fragile, I can't turn them upside down to set on the scale.

I have marked these bars with tape so I can pull them in one month's time to take pictures on how well the bees repair them. I will post follow up pictures then.

To get the bees off, I shook each bar over the hive and rested them in a nuc box until I had pulled all of them. (I was also releasing a queen into this queenless hive, so I had to get them pulled before she laid eggs in the bottom half of the frames). Once the hive was closed, I took each bar individually and started walking toward the house and brushing them off with a handful of grass (bee brush made them really angry). As I got each one clear of bees, I walked in the house with it and hung it on the file folder frame.

The honey drained better when I stuck the whole thing in my hot car to warm things up. Overall, I'm pretty happy with being able to give this much comb back to the bees to refill. Some of the ones I pulled today had been brood comb so they didn't cut as easily and the white honeycomb.


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## cgybees (Apr 20, 2015)

Interesting idea, not sure it would be worth the effort for me over crush / strain and let them rebuild comb, particularly since I'll use the wax too. Probably saves them a bit of effort on rebuilding comb, but depends how deep you cut..


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

So you cut up the centre leaving the cells capped? They will have to uncap the cells and then repair them?
Rather like a top bar home made version of the flow hive


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Nooooo. please don't mention the flow hive, we will be banned 

The large chunks that I shave off get put into a bowl for crush and strain. I'm trying to shave it as close to the center as possible for most of the honey to drain down onto the cookie sheet. (cells are built at a 15 degree angle upward) I'm trying to leave the center (think of it like a piece of foundation) to give the bees more of a head start. Also, with this method, the cells that were full but uncapped or empty at the bottom of the comb are preserved for the bees to immediately begin filling (although if it gets too heavy, the top won't support them). The theory is that the remaining honey in the cut cells will be immediately removed/consumed by the house bees and they will use that to rebuild the comb.


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## cgybees (Apr 20, 2015)

ruthiesbees said:


> Nooooo. please don't mention the flow hive, we will be banned
> 
> The large chunks that I shave off get put into a bowl for crush and strain. I'm trying to shave it as close to the center as possible for most of the honey to drain down onto the cookie sheet. (cells are built at a 15 degree angle upward) I'm trying to leave the center (think of it like a piece of foundation) to give the bees more of a head start. Also, with this method, the cells that were full but uncapped or empty at the bottom of the comb are preserved for the bees to immediately begin filling (although if it gets too heavy, the top won't support them). The theory is that the remaining honey in the cut cells will be immediately removed/consumed by the house bees and they will use that to rebuild the comb.


Sounds like you'd need to be pretty careful transporting back to the hive and handling.. storage of the empty bar (assuming you are storing any) might be problematic... and sticky....?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

cgybees said:


> Sounds like you'd need to be pretty careful transporting back to the hive and handling.. storage of the empty bar (assuming you are storing any) might be problematic... and sticky....?


Since this is a topbar hive, there is no storage of the comb outside of the hive. The sole purpose of this is so you can give the bees drawn comb directly back to their hive to refill. Otherwise basic crush and strain is easier (and less messy). I didn't find transporting to be a problem. I just carried 4 at a time and set in a nuc box to return them to the hive out back. I'm not sure people who run TBH's keep them in outyards.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Are you really giving them that much of a head start do you think... by leaving the mid-rib? Seems like that thin piece would be ripe for falling into the hive.

Have you had them redraw any of these yet or is this the first iteration?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> Are you really giving them that much of a head start do you think... by leaving the mid-rib? Seems like that thin piece would be ripe for falling into the hive.
> 
> Have you had them redraw any of these yet or is this the first iteration?


Why do other beekeepers give them foundation if they don't think it gives the bees a head start? I'm not fully convinced that my bees need any help, but the other traditional beekeepers in my area give me grief over crush-n-strain because I destroy all the comb. And then they go misquoting the "it takes 7# of honey to make 1# of wax"... 

I'm more concerned about leaving the empty drawn comb at the bottom where they don't have to redraw that at all and leaving a solid attachment to the bar at the top. This is my first year with the "electric knife" option. Last year, I experimented with cutting out rectangles of capped honeycomb, and the bees repaired them within a week so you didn't know which bar they were taken from. The problem with that is if you take too much, any weight left below will tear the whole thing off. Leaving the middle line, keeps some of that strength.

The first comb that I used for the video, got put in a hive that night for a swarm call, as bait. When I moved the hive back to the yard the following morning, the swarm had gone to work on drawing it out, but then we all know how quickly swarms drawn comb. The 7 bars that were done the following day, were put back into a regular hive and I haven't pulled them out yet to look. Hopefully by this weekend I can get more follow up pictures.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

The reason to add foundation and also one good benefit from giving them back the bar with comb on it is:

to to get them to build nice straight comb. It is for our benefit, not theirs.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

ruthiesbees said:


> Why do other beekeepers give them foundation if they don't think it gives the bees a head start? I'm not fully convinced that my bees need any help, but the other traditional beekeepers in my area give me grief over crush-n-strain because I destroy all the comb. And then they go misquoting the "it takes 7# of honey to make 1# of wax"...
> 
> I'm more concerned about leaving the empty drawn comb at the bottom where they don't have to redraw that at all and leaving a solid attachment to the bar at the top. This is my first year with the "electric knife" option. Last year, I experimented with cutting out rectangles of capped honeycomb, and the bees repaired them within a week so you didn't know which bar they were taken from. The problem with that is if you take too much, any weight left below will tear the whole thing off. Leaving the middle line, keeps some of that strength.
> 
> The first comb that I used for the video, got put in a hive that night for a swarm call, as bait. When I moved the hive back to the yard the following morning, the swarm had gone to work on drawing it out, but then we all know how quickly swarms drawn comb. The 7 bars that were done the following day, were put back into a regular hive and I haven't pulled them out yet to look. Hopefully by this weekend I can get more follow up pictures.


I don't think people are using foundation to give the bees a head start. It's for uniform cell size, restriction of drone brood, and better chance at straight combs. The reuse of combs is for efficiency. I don't think anyone can really argue that bees can build and fill combs faster than they can just build combs. And it gives them better economy in the use of incoming nectar.

I wouldn't change your management techniques to fit into someone else's mold.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

Great idea, thanks for sharing. This is my first year trying out a top bar. I will definitely give this technique a try when the time comes for me to extract from the topbar. Definitely interested what the bees do with them after you put them back and how long it takes them to draw the entire comb.


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## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

The problem though I've seen with foundation (and my own hive in my first year) was that burr comb was alot higher than with my foundationless frames. They are still connecting frames via wax at the top however. Oh well.


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## cgybees (Apr 20, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> I don't think people are using foundation to give the bees a head start. It's for uniform cell size, restriction of drone brood, and better chance at straight combs. The reuse of combs is for efficiency. I don't think anyone can really argue that bees can build and fill combs faster than they can just build combs. And it gives them better economy in the use of incoming nectar.
> 
> I wouldn't change your management techniques to fit into someone else's mold.


The other reason to use foundation is to provide a sturdy enough comb that you see less disintegration in extractors - commercial bee-keepers are after the honey, after all, and they want to minimize the wax and time to draw out comb... some figures I've seen indicate that you'll see 67-70% of max. yield of honey by drawing new comb all the time and harvesting comb, however, not sure that's a scientific measured number, and correlation not being causality, it doesn't necessarily follow that it's robbing them of energy to make the wax... they make wax anyway, whether they're drawing it into comb or not.

In my own top bar I've tossed in a few drawn out foundation sections to use as comb guides so that as they draw out the full hive I get straight comb... been having some curved / cross combing issues.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

cgybees said:


> The other reason to use foundation is to provide a sturdy enough comb that you see less disintegration in extractors - commercial bee-keepers are after the honey, after all, and they want to minimize the wax and time to draw out comb... some figures I've seen indicate that you'll see 67-70% of max. yield of honey by drawing new comb all the time and harvesting comb, however, not sure that's a scientific measured number, and correlation not being causality, it doesn't necessarily follow that it's robbing them of energy to make the wax... they make wax anyway, whether they're drawing it into comb or not.
> 
> In my own top bar I've tossed in a few drawn out foundation sections to use as comb guides so that as they draw out the full hive I get straight comb... been having some curved / cross combing issues.


Yes, extraction is certainly part of the equation.

What do you mean they make wax anyway? So their wax glands are active and piles of wax flakes are at the bottom of the hive in quantities large enough to draw supers even if you don't put them on it... I don't buy it. They might be drawing wax somewhere else via swarming, but if you've got a fixed volume and nowhere left to build comb... they aren't still making the same amount of wax as they would if they were building comb as if they were not. That's one of the silliest things I've heard. Could you imagine the pile of wax flakes at the bottom board?


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## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> Yes, extraction is certainly part of the equation.
> 
> What do you mean they make wax anyway? So their wax glands are active and piles of wax flakes are at the bottom of the hive in quantities large enough to draw supers even if you don't put them on it... I don't buy it. They might be drawing wax somewhere else via swarming, but if you've got a fixed volume and nowhere left to build comb... they aren't still making the same amount of wax as they would if they were building comb as if they were not. That's one of the silliest things I've heard. Could you imagine the pile of wax flakes at the bottom board?


I have. I can take pictures if you dont believe me. I have a good pile of wax flakes in my 4ft lang from where my second package was in. I also saw a massive amount of wax flakes in the TBH last year (top entrance) and some in the other section where the THIRD package. 4 hives, all with top entrances, with the exact same wax flakes year round? I dunno about you, but I'm seeing a pattern here.

Perhaps the reason you dont see it is because of the fact that you have bottom entrances. Last year I bought a swarm hived in a lang. Essentially a package that came with 10 frames and wax foundation. 0 wax flakes on the bottom. When they were moved to the TBH, wax flakes quickly accumulated on the bottom. It was so thick it actually filled in the gaps between the bottom board and sides since the sides were at an angle and the bottom board didnt have an angle cut into it. Fearing a haven for SHB, I stuck some dowl rods into the gap to prevent that. Fast foward to this year. New package, 8 frame lang frames, bottom entrance. 0 flakes. 2nd package, top entrance, after 2 months there is a layer of wax chips thick enough to cover a SHB, and indeed, I found that and wax moths. Third package? top entrance, wax chips on the bottom. 2ft hive with bottom entrance? 0 flakes, no, seriously, no flakes anywhere on the bottom of the hive. 

Yes, they make wax when at a certain age. Whether they use that is up to the bees and what they feel they need.


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## shayron (Feb 27, 2015)

Lots of good info.
May just try this - Would love to see the aftermath of this process!


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Here are some follow up pictures of the combs exactly one week from extraction. The nectar flow is over here so I didn't expect a lot of comb building or refilling. That should come in the fall or when I start feeding them a lite syrup in late July. I was very happy with how they reinforced each comb so now I can turn them over and handle them.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Sovek said:


> I have. I can take pictures if you dont believe me. I have a good pile of wax flakes in my 4ft lang from where my second package was in. I also saw a massive amount of wax flakes in the TBH last year (top entrance) and some in the other section where the THIRD package. 4 hives, all with top entrances, with the exact same wax flakes year round? I dunno about you, but I'm seeing a pattern here.
> 
> Perhaps the reason you dont see it is because of the fact that you have bottom entrances. Last year I bought a swarm hived in a lang. Essentially a package that came with 10 frames and wax foundation. 0 wax flakes on the bottom. When they were moved to the TBH, wax flakes quickly accumulated on the bottom. It was so thick it actually filled in the gaps between the bottom board and sides since the sides were at an angle and the bottom board didnt have an angle cut into it. Fearing a haven for SHB, I stuck some dowl rods into the gap to prevent that. Fast foward to this year. New package, 8 frame lang frames, bottom entrance. 0 flakes. 2nd package, top entrance, after 2 months there is a layer of wax chips thick enough to cover a SHB, and indeed, I found that and wax moths. Third package? top entrance, wax chips on the bottom. 2ft hive with bottom entrance? 0 flakes, no, seriously, no flakes anywhere on the bottom of the hive.
> 
> Yes, they make wax when at a certain age. Whether they use that is up to the bees and what they feel they need.


All my top bar hives have only top entrances and there is no huge layer of wax flakes accumulating. I'd love to see the pictures.

What kind of shape is that swarm you bought last year in? 
If the case was that bees of a certain age will always make a certain amount of wax that's a load. Shake a queenless package into a hive and watch the stunning amount of wax flakes they drop (pretty much zero) . Yet when suddenly they are introduced a queen the wax starts flowing, comb is drawn, and syrup is consumed. The argument isn't weither bees produce wax... The argument you guys are making is that a bee will basically make x amount of wax weither it is used or not to build comb. That is patently false, I'm sorry. Were that the case the 5 pound swarm I hived May 25th would have secreted about 14 deep frames worth of wax all over the bottom board if I'd taken their queen and screened them in with unlimited syrup. Do you understand how much wax that is? What you are probably seeing is a massive abundance of wax builders and good flow or feeding. In the fervor of a colony like that, lots of wax is going to get dropped or knocked off of bees in the process. 

The idea that bees make the same amount of wax regardless of flow and need is laughable.

Furthermore, when arriving home with your package there should be wax flakes laying all over the bottom of the package... Think of how much wax a package can draw in 3 days once they are put to work. Your idea doesn't hold water.


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## shayron (Feb 27, 2015)

Would love to see these pictures as well!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

shayron said:


> Would love to see these pictures as well!


We're waiting with baited breath, Sovek!


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

I like the idea of slowly letting the honey flow out from uncapped bars. Why?
You can re-use them combs for brood or honey. 
Myself, I'd save them for swarms. 
When you introduce a swarm to a top bar wouldn't it be nice to have five bars of nice white combs for the eager to lay queen? Top bar hive owners all wish they had a couple combs to start with I think.


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