# How much Sugar per hive, if no nectar.



## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I was curious about what people felt the max amount of sugar per hive, if you had to feed 365 days out of the year....

Obviously, you'd hope for the bees to gather nectar and be self sufficient, but I'm curious if I overloaded an area to raise nucs/queens.

How much sugar per hive would I expect to have to feed. 50lbs? 100lbs? 200lbs? More/Less?

Thanks for your time.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

This is a "What if Lois Lane blew up and earth went to Krypton question, but here goes. Bees when broodless and in the cold seem to get by on 8 or 9 pounds of honey a month. When the days start lengthening and the bees start raising brood that amount doubles and triples. But if they have no pollen/protein available that can't continue long as the in hive supply of pollen will soon be exhausted. 

Are you imagining a year long dearth? Is pollen coming in but not nectar? The answer I guess is that your bees would soon die if fed nothing but sugar; when their pollen stores were exhausted and they could no longer raise replacement bees. Even the best pollen subs cannot maintain a colony more than a couple brood cycles. My apologies to the members who produce suppliments. You may correct me if you think it appropriate.


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## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

What is over loading a area in your opinion? What size hive are we talking? 3 deep frame nucs for mini or what, that will effect amount of bees, in turn changing the amount of food needed.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Thanks for the feed back...

No, I'm not expecting a year long dearth... I'm "theory" crafting on what it would cost to feed the bees after the area reaches critical mass.. I completely understand that it depends on the size the hive, type of bees, temps, forage etc....

But I assumed that someone here has feed bees over an extended period of dearth, so that I can get some "rough" ideas about feed requirements.. Either build up to go into almonds, or splits post almonds.

I'm not even sure how many hives you can put on a place before it reaches critical mass. I.e. the bees survive/thrive, but don't make excess honey... Since they fly the 5 or less mile radius, where I expect the prefer to be less than 1-2 miles..

I asked, because I plan on planting 90 acres full of random bee/deer/fruit trees... I plan on putting a bunch of bees on to sell queens/nucs.. I'll still have out yards and all that stuff.... But it might be cheaper to feed the home yard vs driving to a bunch of out yards, when dealing with the mating nucs/splits.

Again, I'm purely asking questions... And I know that people can't answer without knowing the area/climate. So that's why I asked for an idea on feed requires if their was no nectar.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Heintz88 said:


> What is over loading a area in your opinion?


In my area, last year I saw less honey after I went from 20 to 40 hives in the yard... Do I think the 20 hives made that big of a difference, I dunno.... Not sure it could have been the weather for the year. On my family land, it's 90 acres of oaks/tulip poplars surrounded by 10+ miles of the same... If the bees don't get out for the early tree blooms, they have to get the other forest/road side flowers.

I'd "like" to get the point of running 200+ or so mini nucs on the land.... So I'd need the supporting hives for grafting, cell building and drones. I have out yards on three corners ~2 miles from the 90 acres that I could also put drone colonies.

I also have another 3-400 acres that I can play on.... So I probably wouldn't overload the area to the point that I'd feed every day, but I need to account for "worst" case scenarios... If that makes sense.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Kevin there is a figure somewhere in print about the consumption of honey per day per adult bee. 11 milligrams seems to stick in my memory. If they were raising brood it would be much higher though. I did a quick calculation and it seemed in line with needed stores for wintering. That might be food for thought on arriving at your worst case scenario but do some googling on it. I dont trust my memory entirely so neither should you.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Vance G said:


> . Even the best pollen subs cannot maintain a colony more than a couple brood cycles. My apologies to the members who produce suppliments. You may correct me if you think it appropriate.


No apologies needed, I will however need to unload your gun as I see your foot can't handle any more bullet holes. We produce about 5-7 brood rounds on sub each fall-winter, and they show no slowing down, no short lived bees.


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## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

Well i believe were planning on doing between 20-30 thousand queen bees this season. Our mating boxes are deeps and mediums 3 framers. There will be between 300-500 per yard maybe some more, and in these yards we aren't constantly feeding dry sugar but as needed. My point is that i wouldn't worry about stock piling a ton of sugar and just go to a store and get it as needed. As for honey production, i wouldnt use a single year to determine if your yard has reached saturation or not. Take a 2-5 year average of production. However i wouldnt go over 50 colonies in their forage radius.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm not planning on buying a ton of sugar tomorrow... But I "should" know my rough costs... If you don't know your costs, you don't know what to price your products at...

Although the market will dictate some of the prices, if you have the numbers to work with. You can decide how and where you need to adapt to make profits back to offset the costs..

Examples:

If I know that a hive is going to at "max" take 120lbs of sugar in a year. I can plan on getting at least one split, which would cover the ~60 dollar sugar price.

If I know that a 5 frame medium nuc will eat 40 lbs of sugar in a year, but that I can mate 6+ queens per nuc. Then I know that the 20$ of sugar cost will be offset by the 120 (20 per) dollars of queen sales. 

If I know that the 4 frame mini nuc will eat 20lbs of sugar in a year, but that I can get the same 6+ queens... My cost per queen went down, since I can now get 12+ ($240) queens for the same 40lbs ($20) of sugar. 

Hopefully that will clarify things... Oh and Keith, I'm still waiting for my trial sample... *grins*


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Hi Kevin,
Here I have a dearth from end of July or first of August, until sometimes February. This past couple of summers into fall, I've fed 1 to 1.5 pounds of sugar per nuc per week in syrup form. The nucs were 5 frame mediums in size.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Kevin, in Mid TN you should not need more than 50lb per hive ever. any more than that and your going to be harvesting sugar honey. 10-15 lbs winter emergency, and the rest dearth feeding. I usualy use less than 20 lbs per hive per year.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

No apologies needed, I will however need to unload your gun as I see your foot can't handle any more bullet holes. We produce about 5-7 brood rounds on sub each fall-winter, and they show no slowing down, no short lived bees.>

Mr. Jarrett, I just go by what I was taught and forgive me for defaming your industry if I indeed have. I just know that I don't start feeding supplement until the bees raised on it and the colonies stored pollen can receive the first pollens of the year from early blooming trees. That is what I have believed to be the best plan. 

Is there a study you might direct me to that covers this nutrition type. Also, are you getting pollen from somewhere in the California winter while I get none from the Montana snow bank? I am always cautious with loaded pistols and feel no holes in my foot yet. I do however freely admit I often shoot off my mouth and regret it later.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How are you going to know when an area reaches critical mass?

One feeds when one needs to. Which isn't all year round. Not even most of the year by any means.

It is always a good idea to understand what you are getting into and what you need to do to prepare for the future. But you may be getting ahead of yourself. Even though you did get a good answer of 20lbs of sugar per hive per year.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that I have fed packages/nucs more than 20lbs per year.... And I don't know how I will know if an area is at critical mass... I'm assuming that when they are still taking syrup in the middle of the flow would be a good marker... Or if the hive doesn't gain weight, or they start dying head first in the comb....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When you figure out that critical mass has been met what will you do?


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Kevin, it seems to me your missing some key understandings of when and why to feed. No way in heck you should have syrup on hives during a flow... Or maybe I just misunderstood the question? 

If you wondering if how much if they only got sugar, well thats a different answer... One That would depend entirely on how big a hive you wanted. And if I was feeding 24/7 I would want smaller hives.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Through the winter with little to no brood I figure a 10 lb. feed will last a month. On the other side of the spectrum a prime builder hive in the spring can go through a pound and a half of feed per day during periods when there is no supplemental flow.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Vance G said:


> .
> 
> Is there a study you might direct me to that covers this nutrition type. Also, are you getting pollen from somewhere in the California winter .


Vance, there are guys that have been putting on sub since July of this year, I just finish last week putting on ten pounds on my bees, its normal out here.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Thanks Mr. Jarrett. Sorry for semi-hijacking.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

gmcharlie said:


> Kevin, it seems to me your missing some key understandings of when and why to feed. No way in heck you should have syrup on hives during a flow... Or maybe I just misunderstood the question?
> 
> If you wondering if how much if they only got sugar, well thats a different answer... One That would depend entirely on how big a hive you wanted. And if I was feeding 24/7 I would want smaller hives.


The whole purpose of this post..... I said in the title... No nectar..... I said farther down that the area would be overloaded with bees.... 200+ mating nucs plus supporting hives.... Possibly more..... 

I don't expect the bees to make an excess, but maybe they can live hand to mouth..... Either way, the whole point of the thread was... What is the max amount of sugar that you "might" have to find a hive... Assuming no nectar.....

At no point did I say... I have 1 hive in the middle of a nectar rich area and still planning on feeding them 30 gallons of syrup per week.. Sqkcrk asked how I would determine the overloading of bees...

I see a couple ways to do that.. one they starve and die during the flow.... two they take syrup, which in my experience they fly right past and refuse to take during the flow.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Kevin: I do something similar in that we operate a breeder/cell builder yard of around 100 huge handpicked hives in a single location. It's not in a nectar rich area (by design) but heavy pollen flows are common. Despite having only moderate nectar flows through most of the 6 week season we typically supplement with a gallon of approx. 1:1 feed every 5 to 7 days plus keeping a steady diet of pollen sub. as an aid in diluting any possible yellow jasmine pollen that may get brought in.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I really only have one number that has been required. That would be 1 to 2 gallons of 1:1 sugar water per hive for placing them on almonds. that would amount to 8 to 16 lbs of sugar for a one month to 6 week period of build up. keep in mind that almonds are consider exceptional forage for brood building as well and I have no idea how much additional stores they woudl get from them. I suspect that 2 gallons of sugar syrup is only intended only to get them kick started on the build up as the orchards come into bloom. At one point last summer I was goign through 50 lbs of sugar every 7 days while starting 11 nucs. That was for about a 2 to 3 week period.

I am also interested in further information on just what it would take to fully artificially support a colony.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> I am also interested in further information on just what it would take to fully artificially support a colony.


Why would one want to fully artificially support a colony? On another Thread you wrote that you wanted to make some profit from your hives this year. Seems like feeding something that aught to be able to feed itself wouldn't be economical. But maybe things are different in NV.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think I understand Kevin's interest in the logistics of supplemental feeding. 

Perhaps you could get a good approximation by providing an excess of full honey supers for some test colonies, and then track the weight differences of those colonies during the course of a year.

It'll not only give you a clearer picture of when the flows are on, and feeding isn't needed, but it will also give you an idea of how much supplemental feed you may want to provide at other times.

However, without pollen sub, I don't see how you can track potential colony productivity.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> be 1 to 2 gallons of 1:1 sugar water per hive for placing them on almonds. that would amount to 8 to 16 lbs of sugar 

Since one half the weight of 1:1 is sugar and the other half water, 1 to 2 gallons of syrup represents 4 to 8 lbs of sugar.


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

200lbs. You will need food for bees, brood, wax production and storage for winter. I over load my yards in MS and there is plenty of pollen but not a lot of nectar. I both open feed in Drums and feed in the hive. You will be amazed how they will grow when you have feed on them all the time.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Why would one want to fully artificially support a colony?


Because for this yard... Honey is not the goal... Maximum production of bees and queens will be... Ideally, all of the hives would require zero feeding and put up just enough food to survive.... However, since I believe that is something that I don't know... I "could" assume that I'll be feeding them. If it works out to 1 quart every 3-4 days, which is what my 5 frame nucs take down in the are really hungry. I can account for that in my budget.

I may find that it doesn't work out cost wise, or it could be with a steady supply of feed. Those same bees will double/triple+++ in size... If that is the case, then I'll slow the feed when maximum yard size is reached.. 

I have an rough plan on what to do... 

I'm just assuming that more of the professional guys have a better idea... I.e. it cost me this much sugar per yard for this month of while sitting in a holding yard...


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

rainesridgefarm said:


> 200lbs. You will need food for bees, brood, wax production and storage for winter. I over load my yards in MS and there is plenty of pollen but not a lot of nectar. I both open feed in Drums and feed in the hive. You will be amazed how they will grow when you have feed on them all the time.


Is this a rough number? Syrup or sugar? Since your feeding from barrels... I'm assuming that's a 55 gallon barrel placed in a yard... is it 3k lbs to a barrel? How fast to the empty it and how many hives are in the immediate area?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thank you. That makes sense. Something I had not thought of. To grow colonies and the comb they need. I c. I don't feed a lot, so it is not something I think about in the manner you presented.

Maybe the almond pollinators can give u an answer.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

In my honey yards... They get just enough to survive... Then in the winter, I feed the ones that I can pick up and leave the rest to their own devices...

This is just a different aspect that I want to try... I'd much rather sell 200 queens a week/month, than 800 bottles of honey in the same time frame.... But I've never a heavy retail person.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

IF you think that way, colony growth would be limited by the queen only. Bees gather when its available, non stop. all night with hive top feeders. they never "stop cause the don't need more" so your real answer depends on how you limit the queen and take away comb...

I am NOT a TF freak, but I am not sure I would want bees, queens or not, raised this way.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Then I'd assume that you don't want any bees? I'd guess that the majority of bee "producers" are feeding their hives/nucs, both syrup and pollen supplement.... I just don't really see that they get the numbers soon/fast enough by any other method.

Now whether I feed 24/7 365 is an entirely different story.... And I don't believe you are 100% correct on the all night long hive top feeders..... I have seen "significant" feed takeup by the bees when they are in a dearth... And the same bottle will sit on the nuc for weeks during the flow. Now is that because they don't want it? Are busy dealing with the stuff they gathered that day? I don't know, but I do know that I've had feeders on light nucs that I thought needed to be fed where the syrup molded before they took it... During the dearth, it wouldn't lasted the week. 

I'm not suggesting that you gather honey from these fed hives... Again the purpose is the building of bees.

Additionally, under no circumstances am I suggesting that bees be "selected" from this yard... They will just be gown out there. I'd also consider it a "good" indicator how the queens "could" perform.. i.e. if they can't lay out 2 boxes of bees with constant feed, then they weren't very good. If they lay out 5 boxes of bees, then maybe that queen mother some be looked at a little closer.


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