# Small cell bees



## Airwreck (Feb 9, 2013)

Got this msg..
Kind of speaks for itself.


> Today a report came out in the Guardian newspaper about a strain of native bees that are living in an old oak forest (Blenheim Palace). These bees are different to anything else found to date and the genetic profiling (to be released in a month) indicates they are a very old strain.
> 
> I have had the pleasure of communicating with the lead scientist and he advises the bees are on 4,8mm cells at a spacing of 34mm! Same as I found in Spain!
> 
> ...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Airwreck said:


> Got this msg..
> Kind of speaks for itself.


Thanks for sharing; interesting read.

As for the "small cell" - pretty much they naturally become smaller due to the combs not being regularly replaced (picture very thick walled, pitch black combs).


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I like small cell bees myself. The closer to the equator or the more aged the comb the bees are raised in, the smaller the bees. I have read reputable reports of 4.4mm cells in the southern US. Too bad it didn't prove out as a vorroa deterrence.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I mean it's a nice feel-good story I guess. From what I have been seeing/reading from BIBBA and others, the genetics of their preferred bees are in the high 90% range of being pure A.M.M. If there's something to this, hopefully, they can start to capture some drones for AI to help out the rest of the country's breeders who are trying to keep a more pure A.M.M strain.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Various versions of this story come out every year or two.

It is always a colony that has lived in an old oak tree, a church bell tower, or some other rustic sounding place, for "as long as anyone can remember". 

And it will be identified by "experts" as having different genetics to all the surrounding bees, being the same genetics as the old English bees from 300 years ago before disease and imported bees wiped them out.

Sorry if I sound like a cynic but I guess I am.

Primary reason for my lack of belief, is that if a colony has been living in this special place for 50 years or whatever the claimed time is, it must have requeened itself many times, and diluted it's genetics with the surrounding bees by 50% every time.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> And it will be identified by "experts" as having different genetics to all the surrounding bees, being the same genetics as the old English bees from 300 years ago before disease and imported bees wiped them out.


To be fair:



> Filipe Salbany





> , an internationally experienced bee expert who emits a real contagious joy and enthusiasm. *He has 50 years’ experience*
> 
> The Estate has realised it has a possibly unique resource here which is worth protecting, promoting and researching. So far* he’s found 35 nests* in under a year, and there are large areas he has not checked yet.











ONBG meeting, July 2021 – Blenheim wild bees


We were priviliged and excited to have the opportunity for a behind-the-scenes tour of wild bee colonies at Blenheim Palace led by Filipe Salbany, an internationally experienced bee expert who emit…




oxnatbees.wordpress.com





Certainly, those reporters routinely mess up things they don't understand - when reporting.
But something is certainly going on and it appears to be a population (not a single colony).
I myself will discount a single colony story "surviving for many years" (too many of these stories float about without real evidence and without real monitoring).
But when talking a population, now that maybe a real deal.

But also, many average bees if given a chance to swarm 2-3 times per a season and, thus, dilute the mite population can actually survive just fine.
NOT all - but many will.
Even if 20-30% consistently survive every season - that is enough to sustain a population.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Extension of the same read - just for the convenience of thread readers:









Blenheim bees – news article and response


As the local natural beekeeping group, we’ve got to know and respect Filipe. The recent article in The Guardian about his findings at Blenheim has led to some heated debate in the Twittersphe…




oxnatbees.wordpress.com


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

And more - Boughton Estate Honeybee Conservation - different project, similar wild bees:


https://twitter.com/BehcHoneybee


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## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

I've accompanied Filipe in Blenheim forest and may be able to answer some queries. I live about 8 miles from Blenheim.

He won't know about the genetics for sure until he has got samples over winter (to avoid drifting) - this will involve a heck of a lot if climbing. The DNA analysis will be done by an Irish professor who has done a lot of work on Irish bees, which are the largest remnant population of Amm on the planet. (It's so marginal there, wet & windy, nothing else survives!)

A key point about Blenheim is the [ancient, barely managed] oak forest is large - hundreds of acres - and within the larger estate, thousands of acres. So commercial colonies are a long way from the central woods. And it's noticeable that the bees get darker as you deeper in. It's very rare to have such an extensive undeveloped landscape in central England, we have a high (human) population density. But no one thought to look for bees there before.

Perhaps this will give context: the newer oaks were only planted about 300 years ago. Many approach 800 years old. The entire estate landscape has been in a time bubble for at least 100 years (he has studied the records they keep) - no pesticides or other new fangled practises.

So there's a large time capsule which has buffered whatever's inside. Entomologists had already found several rare creepy crawlies, but ignored bees.

Filipe doesn't expect the bees are pure Amm, but if they prove to be genetically distinct from the surrounding bees, that will be very interesting.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Some Bloke said:


> Irish bees, which are the largest remnant population of Amm on the planet.


Does this statement consider the wild forest _Bashkortostan_ bees in Russia?
If so, that's cool.
I am not knowledgeable enough to compare the populations.


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## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

Yes. Even larger than the Russian population. The Irish researcher is Professor Grace McCormack. She gave a very interesting lecture to BIBBA on Zoom, you can probably find it on Youtube. I think the title was "Resilient Bees".


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Some Bloke said:


> Yes. Even larger than the Russian population. The Irish researcher is Professor Grace McCormack. She gave a very interesting lecture to BIBBA on Zoom, you can probably find it on Youtube. I think the title was "Resilient Bees".


Thanks for that I found the BIBBA youtube channel and it looks like another great source to watch over the winter.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

well lets hope they do not get so into the bees trees they have a negative impact.
since >50% of swarms do not make the first winter, IMO swarm traps would be a way to pull some queens out , right in that forest, to expand , save, and test, rather than test the "last remaining" wild bees.

GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Some Bloke said:


> The Irish researcher is Professor Grace McCormack.


A great presentation by her IMHO follows- at about the 45 minute mark she begins discussing current AMM distribution and refers to a distribution map that is in 2018 paper that is also included below:






_A significant pure population of the dark European honey bee (Apis mellifera mellifera) remains in Ireland_

The take-away:

_... the Irish population is genetically diverse and that 97.8% of sampled bees were determined to be pure A. m. mellifera._


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> ... the Irish population is genetically diverse and that 97.8% of sampled bees were determined to be pure A. m. mellifera.


One of the study participants is fourth-generation beekeeper Eoghan Mac Giolla Coda- in his BIBBA talk from this Spring he talks about working with the native bee. At about 39:30 he discusses the techniques he uses to assess 'nativeness':


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