# Winter manipulations - yes, you can do it.



## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Had to do one today. The weather was warmer but not by much, -15C, and although I did not want to I knew from using my stethoscope that this cluster had been up on the sugar since the beginning and was refusing to move down. I made sure this year not to place the sugar until it got very cold and yet one hive of the three stayed up on top, exactly like last year. Don't ask me why these guys chose this method of wintering, as last year this was the hive that went down first. Anyway, I had sugar bricks up on the top of the frames and counting the days told me that soon they would run out and if it got to -30C quickly they would be trapped up there unable to move down to the plentiful stores below. Friggin silly bees!!!

So, I popped the top, looked thru the plastic upper board and sure enough, barely any sugar left. I quickly lifted the clear cover, put in 32 small bricks ( ice cream scoops) and closed it all up tight. 

Here's hoping I did not do any damage but if I had not gone in would this be a case in the spring where I would be posting a thread here called ' Why did my bees die when they had plenty of stores?'.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

This is why every time someone starts bad-mouthing almond pollination, I respond with:
One of the very best things that happens to our bees every year is yanking them out of the shower here in Oregon and landing in sunny California in mid-winter.
Just one month later they come back home just in time for tree fruits BURSTING at the seams with bees!
Yes, it pays well, but if you saw the bees, you would wonder if I should pay the almond grower just to be there!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

HarryVanderpool said:


> This is why every time someone starts bad-mouthing almond pollination, ..........


To be fair - this indeed makes all kinds of business sense for you.

About the video above - there were all kinds of bad-mouthing comments (mostly about bee-torturing, poor judgement, dead bees, etc - of course).

The response by the blogger to those was something along the line:

I do this now and here because I decided to switch my equipment and I can do it now and here, and I will do it now and here.
end of the story - he is 100% on the foam hives in the end of the December; nearly sold the woodenware, and all done and is moving ahead on the new setup (which he has been pre-testing last year)
bees are just fine (a handful perished, yes; oh well).


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

HarryVanderpool said:


> This is why every time someone starts bad-mouthing almond pollination, I respond with:
> One of the very best things that happens to our bees every year is yanking them out of the shower here in Oregon and landing in sunny California in mid-winter.
> Just one month later they come back home just in time for tree fruits BURSTING at the seams with bees!
> Yes, it pays well, but if you saw the bees, you would wonder if I should pay the almond grower just to be there!


Not sure if I understand your point, is it that it is better for bees to be transported to sunnier climes? Commercially I would take your word on it but I would disagree for us hobby keepers. Last winter my bees did very well and came into spring busting wth bees, they were incredibly strong and wintered well. Not all of us have a commercial aim for our bees, and since bees do know how to deal with winter and the cold (just like us humans) the weather is not the problem here, it is just a foolish hive of bees.


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## Lumberman (Jul 20, 2021)

This is very timely for me. I’ve been wanting to add sugar to. Couple of my hives that seem light. I’ve been waiting for the perfect day that doesn’t seem to ever come. Next week we will have a few days in the 40f and I’m going to make it happen.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Lumberman said:


> Next week we will have a few days in the 40f and I’m going to make it happen.


I got today about -10C (14F) - I have no problem opening the hives and sliding hard feed and stuff.

It is *not a big deal*, guys.
Certainly - I don't go and start pulling frames. That would be too much.

But just opening the lid, removing blankets for 2 minutes, and dropping a patty onto the silly bees - it is not a big deal, and you don't need to shake over this minutia.

I have my day off *today*, and I do what I got to do today.
Bonus - the bees are not flying into my face - very convenient.

Before:










After:


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

I found a light colony while cleaning entrances today.
Popped the lid and added a shim and fondant, didn't think twice .
But I didn't mess around I had everything setup.
I was in and out before they realized I popped the lid.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I found a slight problem with bees who tend to cluster on top of the frames right away and don't move down. All my hives had a piece of plastic right over the sugar bricks. A large amount of the bees that clustered right away on the sugar were also on top of the plastic. This hindered the quick placement of more sugar as the large number of bees clinging to the plastic sheet when I lifted it created more disturbance than I liked. I removed the plastic sheet but I still have a frame, on which I had stapled some clear plastic, covering the top of the hive frames so I can monitor the sugar without disturbing the bees. 

I am cautious to look at the long term forecast before doing cold manipulations. I make sure that the weather will remain fairly stable with no cold snaps in the near term. I have a sneaking suspicion that then the bees can re-establish their cluster warmth easier after being disturbed.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Lumberman said:


> This is very timely for me. I’ve been wanting to add sugar to. Couple of my hives that seem light. I’ve been waiting for the perfect day that doesn’t seem to ever come. Next week we will have a few days in the 40f and I’m going to make it happen.


Not a problem as far as I can see. If I just want to check stores on top I really don't care what the outside temp is (within reason). I don't pull frames or lift boxes in winter, but I do look in once in a while to see how the sugar is. I will check the weather forecast for the week ahead and try to pick a warmer day if possible.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

ursa_minor said:


> I found a slight problem with bees who tend to cluster on top of the frames right away and don't move down. All my hives had a piece of plastic right over the sugar bricks. A large amount of the bees that clustered right away on the sugar were also on top of the plastic. This hindered the quick placement of more sugar as the large number of bees clinging to the plastic sheet when I lifted it created more disturbance than I liked. I removed the plastic sheet but I still have a frame, on which I had stapled some clear plastic, covering the top of the hive frames so I can monitor the sugar without disturbing the bees.


 I find it very helpful to puff a bit of smoke into the hand hole and give them some time to clear. Seems bees vacate top side of plastic in a few minutes. Then apply smoke to the air gap at the perimeter of the plastic. And then lightly smoke under the plastic as it is lifted. Bees clear the area and there are very few flyers.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mgolden said:


> I find it very helpful to puff a bit of smoke into the hand hole and give them some time to clear. Seems bees vacate top side of plastic in a few minutes. Then apply smoke to the air gap at the perimeter of the plastic. And then lightly smoke under the plastic as it is lifted. Bees clear the area and there are very few flyers.


When it is cold - none of this is needed - bees just don't fly.
Just open them; do your job; close.
1-2 minutes and done.

I prefer it to be below freezing even if of this reason alone.
5-10 degrees below freezing is good.

Like on this picture.
-10C
Perfect.
I don't see this idea of working in the cold quite getting across. 
You don't need any smoke.


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## Mud Songs (Sep 30, 2010)

I know many small scale or hobbyist beekeepers who were taught some hard and fast rules when they started beekeeping and they never question those rules, including the "never open a hive in the winter" rule. I'm sure I still do a few things that aren't the best because they were taught to me by my first mentor and I've more or less stayed on that track.

Most people tend to stick to what works until it doesn't work.

I've broken most of the "never" rules that are passed around, though there are some I still haven't ventured forth on. I doubt I would ever give syrup to my bees in the winter, for instance.

In any case, I've never hesitated to open a hive to give the bees food if they need it, but manipulating frames in the winter was never a consideration -- until I had to do. I had shrews in my hives that were destroying my colonies, agitating the bees, stressing them, making them sick and all kinds of horrible things.

I couldn't scare the shrews out, so I dismantled the hives -- while it was snowing -- and rebuilt them one frame at a time until I managed to spook away the shrew in each hive that had crawled up between the frames.

The bees were extremely defensive until the next summer, but they were as robust as they had ever been. No problems. Who knows, may the hit of cold even made them more resilient.

Sometimes you have to do what you have to do, whether it's winter, spring, summer or fall.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Mud Songs said:


> they never question those rules, including the "never open a hive in the winter" rule


This old rule kills many bees - unnecessarily.
Quick mid-winter check in most any weather and addition of a sugar cake saves many lives.
Per the old rules - you'd never know of your dead bees until spring.

The same goes for "always winter strong colonies". 
Heard that myth somewhere before.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

GregB said:


> When it is cold - none of this is needed - bees just don't fly.
> Just open them; do your job; close.
> 1-2 minutes and done.
> 
> ...


Perhaps on small hives, you get away with no smoke. I have some mating Nucs, that I replenish sugar blocks and don't light the smoker.

On bigger well insulated hives, there can be lots of bees above the plastic and festooning on the under side of the inner cover. In these situations, a little smoke works wonders to move bees down. I've tried it without smoke and it is slow, frustrating and lots of one way flights.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mgolden said:


> Perhaps on small hives, you get away with no smoke. I have some mating Nucs, that I replenish sugar blocks and don't light the smoker.
> 
> On bigger well insulated hives, there can be lots of bees above the plastic and festooning on the under side of the inner cover. In these situations, a little smoke works wonders to move bees down. I've tried it without smoke and it is slow, frustrating and lots of one way flights.


I open big hives too - no problem.

Again - do this in cold weather and don't worry too much.
I simply knock off the bees clinging to plastic by hand.
Of course - if you wait for +5C - +10C outside - the situation is different then (more hassle, actually, because the bees become flighty).

Pretty much after watching this guy enough - I don't care much anymore of the cold (this guy is a great myth buster).
(983) Почему пчелы сверху это плохо Зимовка пчел на улице Плановый осмотр пчел - YouTube


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

GregB said:


> I simply knock off the bees clinging to plastic by hand.


And then you do like me and knock one into your boot, a mid winter sting hurts more and jumping around in the snow pulling off your boot and sock makes for cold tootsies.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> And then you do like me and knock one into your boot, a mid winter sting hurts more and jumping around in the snow pulling off your boot and sock makes for cold tootsies.


LOL
Some care is certainly needed.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

GregB said:


> I open big hives too - no problem.
> 
> Again - do this in cold weather and don't worry too much.
> I simply knock off the bees clinging to plastic by hand.
> ...


I stand by my positive experience of using smoke on a well insulated hive with a big population. Large numbers of bees festoon on the underside of the inner cover and above the plastic. The most effective and expeditious way to get replacement sugar on is the use of smoke.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mgolden said:


> I stand by my positive experience of using smoke on a well insulated hive with a big population. Large numbers of bees festoon on the underside of the inner cover and above the plastic. The most effective and expeditious way to get replacement sugar on is the use of smoke.


Whatever works, mate.


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## Mud Songs (Sep 30, 2010)

mgolden said:


> Perhaps on small hives, you get away with no smoke.



I've had more than a few bees aim for my face on winter days, so a little a smoke and a veil are usually on hand.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I wonder now if the people are, indeed, too much into the insulation games.
Insulating so much so that the bees are running about thru the winter.

This remote yard I revisited and placed emergency patties few days ago.
The only tool needed was the trusted pocketknife.
No, the bees did not fly into my face.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

GregB said:


> I wonder now if the people are, indeed, too much into the insulation games.
> Insulating so much so that the bees are running about thru the winter.
> 
> This remote yard I revisited and placed emergency patties few days ago.
> ...


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

GregB said:


> I wonder now if the people are, indeed, too much into the insulation games.
> Insulating so much so that the bees are running about thru the winter.


A wonder I have been having myself lately.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

We took a peek yesterday, our high temp was 26F. 

One deadout out of 6 ....so far. The remaining 5 colony clusters were still in their bottom boxes (alive and moving around). 

We use 'all' mediums and typically winter our bees in two boxes, sometimes 3. Honey was still available in top boxes, but we gave all 5 of them a slab of fondant, covered with a loose sheet of plastic. Our insulation boxes are our old Deeps with vent holes. These Deeps are filled with blankets, pillows, towels, etc....basically whatever absorbent material we had on hand when we closed them up.

Upon a limited inspection, the deadout appears to have suffered from queen loss. We're getting another storm today, so a more complete inspection will have to wait till the weekend.

5 survivors out of 6 is OK by me in January 🆒 . We'll see what March brings us.


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