# Southern vs northern climates for TF



## HTB (Aug 12, 2020)

I've only been at this a couple of years but it would seem I read of more success occuring in warmer climates. Am I missing something or is it a common denominator?


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Some of the successes seem to be northern. Julani in Finland comes to mind. But he says there are no, or few wild bees there, so he can isolate his hives from other bees.

A couple of things. Swarms are more common in the south, so replacing lost colonies is easier, giving the appearance that TF is working even if there is a lot of turnover.

Also, the source of the local population. Are the bees originating in colonies that have been to California? Near presence of commercial operations seems to be a huge negative for TF.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AR1 said:


> Some of the successes seem to be northern. Julani in Finland comes to mind. But he says there are no, or few wild bees there, so he can isolate his hives from other bees.
> 
> A couple of things. Swarms are more common in the south, so replacing lost colonies is easier, giving the appearance that TF is working even if there is a lot of turnover.
> 
> Also, the source of the local population. Are the bees originating in colonies that have been to California? Near presence of commercial operations seems to be a huge negative for TF.


Juhani has to thank his living in Finland - no annual cross-continent South/North bee migration.
He can do whatever he wants.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

HTB said:


> I've only been at this a couple of years but it would seem I read of more success occuring in warmer climates. Am I missing something or is it a common denominator?


Look wider, not just TF.

Which way are the annual package sales are going?
South --> North.
This is common knowledge.

So which traits in general are being annually suppressed?
The Northern traits are being suppressed (as they are routinely over-run by the Southern traits).

So what do you expect in such conditions will have more success, South or North?
It is really not a rocket science to see the trend.

The Southern traits have more chances to be successful.
The Northern traits less so.

TF is just one component of the general dynamic; but it is generally consistent with it.

MSL said well (and I agree) - before you can start talking TF, you at least need the bees that can consistently survive and thrive in your conditions WITH the treatments (if that what it takes).
We don't even have that pre-condition in many places (not around here anyway).

Once you have that pre-condition resolved, then we can start talking about trying for the TF.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

HTB said:


> I've only been at this a couple of years but it would seem I read of more success occuring in warmer climates. Am I missing something or is it a common denominator?


HTB:

GregV and AR1 make some good points and I would only add two others to the mix:

1. Local Adaptation- I wonder whether what we perceive as a bit more TF success below the Mason-Dixon line has relatively more to due with the ability of a regional population to become adapted to their local habitat and climate than it does to the climate itself. In fairness, most of the folks I know of who are having success with TF are operating in relatively rural environments and tend to work with stocks whose basis came from their region- suggesting that at at least some material portion of the local adaptation and development of resistance mechanisms has both its genesis and its source of sustenance in the regional population. In this regard, I think that the relatively more rural and agrarian/silvicultural nature of much of the south simply affords more opportunities for local adaptation to become endemic.

2. Overwintering- While I have heard compelling arguments both for and against a southern climate's role in mite population growth relative to a northern climate, it is hard to argue against the point that it is easier to overwinter in a southern climate- both in terms of the minimum viable cluster size and the ability for cleansing (and sometimes foraging) flights during the winter months. Thus I think that with all things being equal, a colony that is only marginally able to rear healthy winter bees due to mite pressure has much greater odds of living to fight another year here in Western Kentucky than they will in Southern Wisconsin or Northern Illinois. Anecdotally, I have had full-sized colonies successfully overwinter here with little more than three frames of bees- and I understand this would be untenable in much colder climates.


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## HTB (Aug 12, 2020)

Of course locally adapted bees are a major consideration for a colonies winter survival, treatment free or not and I doubt those southern beekeepers who import northern queens suffer the same failures that northern beekeepers who keep southern bees do. That being said, I can only speak to what I've read in the last year and in regards to the few beekeepers I know personally and my experience with my own bees. That perspective causes me to wonder if the long brood break associated with northern kept bees isn't as beneficial for combating mites as it's thought to be. Instead, maybe a colonies ability to forage and raise bees year round is something that helps a hive push through mite related issues.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

HTB said:


> Of course locally adapted bees are a major consideration for a colonies winter survival, treatment free or not and I doubt those* southern beekeepers who import northern queens suffer the same failures that northern beekeepers who keep southern bees do*. That being said, I can only speak to what I've read in the last year and in regards to the few beekeepers I know personally and my experience with my own bees. That perspective causes me to* wonder if the long brood break associated with northern kept bees isn't as beneficial for combating mites as it's thought to be.* Instead, maybe a colonies ability to forage and raise bees year round is something that helps a hive push through mite related issues.


I am yet to hear of southern beekeepers importing the northern queens.
This is rather unusual.
The southern beekeepers have no particular need for the northern queens (outside of some special projects, akin to Sam Comfort's 2-base queen raising).

The long brood brakes are only beneficial IF the bees can live that long in high enough numbers to survive serious winter.

At my location the winter bee must hold November through April (6 months) without substitutes.
Only very healthy bee hatched and raised in September/October can do this.
Compromised bees have no chances here.

Issue is that the healthy winter bees are in a very short supply if you don't properly treat OR you have exceptional mite resistance OR some mid-way solution is found.
When you have a too small of a cluster, they bees can NOT take advantage of the "long brood break".
They just freeze.
The "long brood break" is pointless to the frozen bees.

So, the "long brood break" could be beneficial IF your bees stay *through *the winter in 1)strong, healthy state AND 2)strong numbers and 3)have strong winter traits too (e.g. ability to hold the poop for long stretches of time).

Requirements of the *winter bee* are much higher up here than down south - something to keep in mind. This point is not getting across too well.


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## HTB (Aug 12, 2020)

That the requirements of winter bees in the north are much higher than those in the south is obvious, not sure why you think I don't get that. My bees forage and reproduce year round, it's not "rocket science" that bees kept in locations with 6 months of freezing temperatures need to be hardier.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

HTB said:


> That the requirements of winter bees in the north are much higher than those in the south is obvious, not sure why you think I don't get that. My bees forage and reproduce year round, it's not "rocket science" that bees kept in locations with 6 months of freezing temperatures need to be hardier.


Well, given this I am not sure what else are you looking for.


Sorry - this was not to you. This is a rhetorical statement.


> This point is not getting across too well.


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