# Always requeen a captured swarm?



## MastoDon

Two of the three colonies I have right now were started with swarms captured in the last three or four months. All seem to be bustling with busy bees; all are bringing in loads of nectar and pollen. The oldest swarm-start recently needed to have a second brood chamber added. The most recent is less than a month old in a five frame setup (ten-frame box with division boards installed to keep the volume low until brood starts to hatch).

So, a couple of old-timers at a meeting I went to earlier this month were saying (and I'm paraphrasing, here) that since swarms were always accompanied by the old queen from their former colony, the beek should replace her because she's already a year old and will be drying up pretty soon.

Is there any credence to what they said? Is a queen who leads a swarm almost past her prime? I like to listen to experience, but that didn't sound right.


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## peacekeeperapiaries

not necessarily true, a "swarm" queen can be a viable and great queen....we re-queen swarms because we are in AHB territory...if your not in AHB territory....evaluate her before you squish her....she might be a great mother


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## AramF

I am glad you asked that question. It made me think about that topic.

I would prefer a queen that swarmed. That queen is probably a survivor queen and is successfully doing what she should. When she beings to fail, then they will make supercedure cells, so her genes will continue to live in her daughter.

What the old timers are doing is maximizing your probability of a good honey crop. If the queen is young, she will head the colony successfully. If the queen is old she might not. So why loose time if you can fix things right away. Well, I bet you can see their point too. It is valid.

So, I guess if you have a young queen, then compare your swarm queen to her. If the swarm one is keeping up, then you are ok. Otherwise wait untill june, pinch the swarm queen and let the bees raise a replacement. That will have the added benefit of breaking the mite cycle, getting a new queen without incurring an extra cost and housekeeper bees collecting nectar while their babysitting services are not needed.


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## sqkcrk

Why would a keep replace what isn't broke? What is her brood pattern like? I never replace a queen unless it is failing. I don't know any keepers who do.

Think about it this way. If thew queen is good enuf for the bees, why isn't she good enuf for the keeper. W/in reason, of course. After all, a drone laying colony "thinks" it has a queen, when it doesn't really.


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## Omie

I agree with Sqkcrk. Especially so since in the North we don't (yet) have to worry much about any Africanized strains in a swarm. I welcome local genetics that have already adapted to the winters in my area!


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## frazzledfozzle

generally I dont like swarm queens, If the hive has swarmed it means she is getting a bit old to hold her hive together, 
also I don't like to encourage swarmy hives in our outfit by keeping all the swarmy queens, next thing I know come honey time they will all be hanging from the trees rather than bring in a crop.

I would never breed from a swarm queen, for me the tendency to swarm is not a desirable trait.

frazz


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## jajtiii

There is no 'always' in beekeeping.


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## wildbeekeeper

Dont forget as well, that sometimes swarms will contain virgin queens if they are afterswarms. In which case you already have a fresh queen ready to go!


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## sqkcrk

frazzledfozzle said:


> generally I dont like swarm queens, If the hive has swarmed it means she is getting a bit old to hold her hive together,
> 
> frazz


I don't mean to be argumentative, and you are certainly entitled to do what you wish in your own operation and you have good reasons for doing so, but, do you requeen overwintered colonies too? Isn't a queen in a swarm, in all likelyhood, an overwintered queen?


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## frazzledfozzle

I would say she has moved from being an over wintered queen to a swarm queen as soon as she swarms,

To me an overwintered queen is a queen still in my hive come the following years honey season not hanging from a tree down the road.

Over wintered queens still in my hives for their second year and producing a good crop of honey are very valuable to me I wouldn't requeen it, A swarm queen thats done one honey crop and then leaves is of no value to me.

If the tendancy to swarm is an inheritable trait then I dont want to encourage that trait.
I wouldn't expect a queen coming through her first winter to swarm I would expect it more after her second.
If you are having hives swarming with queens barely a year old then maybe you need to look at how many swarm queens you are holding onto it could be that you are promoting a swarming tendancy in your bees.

frazz

frazz


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## Cedar Hill

Bees can inherit and even develop a "swarming tendency". The more the swarm queens are used the more this tendency seems to be inherited and increased. In order to avoid this swarming tendency in your bees' genetics, it is better to requeen incoming swarms with your own queens, regardless of whether they are old or new queens. OMTCW


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## waynesgarden

Is there any evidence that swarming (or what some here are calling a "trait" or "tendancy") can actually be bred out of the honey bee? Isn't swarming actually not a trait but a primary reproductive instinct that has been apis mellifera's sole means of colony reproduction for over twenty million years with the exception of perhaps the past hundred years or so? Even in Langstroth's day, catching swarming hives was the primary means of increase in an apiary. I've been reading in books and journals back into the 1800's, speculation by those that believe breeding a non-swarming bee would be desirable but haven't come across any research supporting the possibility.

As I understand it, sick, weak or declining colonies are not apt to swarm. When a queen leaves with half the hive population, is it not typically when they are at peak strength, with a queen that was capable of, at least leading up to the swarm, producing sufficient eggs for an optimum amount of new brood? This does not sound like a poor or failing queen to me.

Isn't a colony's usual method of dealing with aging, failing or poor laying queens supercedure rather than swarming?

Larry Connor would argue that breeding a bee not to swarm is like breeding a dog not to bark and mucking around with this vital instinct could change the natural order of things for the bee. I agree. One may claim a line of bees they are keeping have the swarming "trait" reduced or eliminated but I would question how much of that result is merely better swarming prevention practices being employed by the beekeeper.

From all I believe I understand of swarming, I would think that, unless the swarm was very small or very late in the season or in an AHB area, a swarm queen might make an excellent subject to try in a breeding program.

Wayne


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## Pink Cow

Good discussion, but I have a different question:

MastoDon, you got swarms in the middle of winter?


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## AramF

The only statement I would like to question is that swarming queen is old. I do not think that you can predict queen's age by her swarming behavior. Swarming is caused by the nest overfilled with nectar, not by the age of the queen. If the colony is really successfull you will also get afterswarms with virgin queens. They definitely are not old. 

So even if the queen is old in the swarm, obviously she is healthy enough to breed a population that outfills its nest cavity with nectar. That implies good work ethic and volume of bees. Any hive will swarm when the honey reserves begin to interfere with queen's laying space. Punishing a gentle queen for successfully achieving that is a strategy worth reconsidering.


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## Cedar Hill

Wayne. Something major is being left out of this discussion. The swarming tendency of the Old World Carniolans. Sue Coby's work revolutionized (IMHO) that particular strain of bee. Before her work, I had intentionally used (in the '70's) the Carniolans (Old World Carniolans?) that predate her work, to increase the number of my hives very rapidly to develop a small pollination business. It worked, better than I could have ever imagined. Carniolan hives had the reputation at that time, of swarming much more frequently than the other races and they really did! It was a tendency that was very difficult to control. She saw the need and the ultimate benefits in developing a terrific bee strain. Her New World Carniolans differ dramatically from what the Carniolans used to be - concerning their original swarming tendencies. Have no knowledge of the current "Old World Carniolan" that is presently being sold,.... OMTCW


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## sqkcrk

frazzledfozzle said:


> I would say she has moved from being an over wintered queen to a swarm queen as soon as she swarms,
> .... swarm queens you are holding onto it could be that you are promoting a swarming tendancy in your bees.
> 
> frazz
> 
> frazz


Okay, we are arguing past each other, so I'm going to concede the argument.


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## sqkcrk

Cedar Hill said:


> Bees can inherit and even develop a "swarming tendency". The more the swarm queens are used the more this tendency seems to be inherited and increased.


Have you ever really seen this? How does it expresas itself? Or the opposite? Aren't all colonies of bee apt to swarm, have the tendency?

I understand, basically, the heritible trait idea, but have you seen it expressed?


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## trainwrecker

started beekeeping again last year. we have two hives that we are going to use for queenrearing. we obtained them from the wild. they had been at their respective locations for 7+ years. our thinking is that they survived this long w/ no meds, they must be doing something right.


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## NasalSponge

First, swarming is the bee's act of procreation and I strongly doubt anyone can "breed" that out of them. Second, the presence of a queen in a swarm has little to do with her age, I have had month old hives swarm....old queen, I think not. I will hive a swarm and then evaluate them for a bit, if they fail to build up then i will combine or re-queen, if they look good, I let them do their thing!


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## MastoDon

Pink Cow said:


> Good discussion, but I have a different question:
> 
> MastoDon, you got swarms in the middle of winter?


Yes. Although there have been a few cold weeks here in the SF Bay Area, this "winter" has been one of our usual ho-hum affairs. At least one jealous beek from the eastern part of the country remarked that "there's no such thing as winter in California." 
Based upon picking up a swarm in late November and again in early February, I'd have to agree. We don't have weather here. We have climate.


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## AR Beekeeper

Most prime swarms I catch that come from my overwintered colonies will supersede the queen they swarmed with within 2 months of swarming. My swarming period is April/May so the supersedure is complete in July/Aug. The problem I see with using a swarm queen is the danger of a failed supersedure and going into winter with a queen that may not make it through the winter.


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## Fuzzy

Masto,

Tell you what, you have 3 hives, give me $60 and I'll look inside them and tell you that I re-queened them ( lying of course ). It is unlikely that you will know the difference from the production output. 

Last year's february swarm produced 5 ( count them ) supers of honey and is still going strong today. If the queen gets poor the bees will replace her.


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## jonathan

MastoDon said:


> So, a couple of old-timers at a meeting I went to earlier this month were saying (and I'm paraphrasing, here) that since swarms were always accompanied by the old queen from their former colony, the beek should replace her because she's already a year old and will be drying up pretty soon.


Just goes to show you can't always rely on the old timers. She could be 4 years old or an unmated virgin. The 'drying up' does not just depend just on age, but also on how how many drones she mated with and how much sperm she stored in her spermatheca when she mated.


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## frazzledfozzle

NasalSponge said:


> I have had month old hives swarm....old queen, I think not.


If I was having month old hives swarm I would be asking questions this is barely enough time to even get a round of brood laying and hatching done.

When I say swarm I'm talking about the primary swarm with the original queen not an afterswarm with a virgin.

If the queen is still vigorous and laying well she should be able to keep her brood nest full of brood if she is not so vigorous her laying will slow and her brood area will become full of honey.

As for only strong healthy colonies swarming thats not quite true, there's a lot of swarming of hives infested with varroa and they are generally not in a healthy state.

It comes down to what you believe to be true, and for us and our business we will not breed from swarm hives and we will requeen swarm hives because we believe that continually having swarmy queens around laying swarmy drones will result in more and more swarmy queens.

Just our own personal opinion.

frazz


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## frazzledfozzle

jonathan said:


> Just goes to show you can't always rely on the old timers. She could be 4 years old or an unmated virgin. The 'drying up' does not just depend just on age, but also on how how many drones she matd with and how much sperm she stored in her spermatheca. when she mated.


the way I read it it is the "oldtimers" are talking about the primary swarm when they say old queen, they are obviously not talking about an afterswarm with a virgin.

and I think most "oldtimers" would also understand all the variables about number of drones mated with etc etc,

In my opinion thats how they made it to the title of oldtimers.

frazz


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## baldwinbees

ALL of my hives are from swarms or cut-outs....got 1 that had been in a house for over 30yrs...no exageration,it was 3ft tall,6in deep ,&over 16ft long with most of it covered in bees....when I luckily found&got the queen in the box I had brought 3 med supers.....came back that evening to pick them up&had to go home&get 2 more boxes for the bees that were bearding..... that queen filled 3 supers with brood&the hive made 7 supers of honey...in the middle of this that colony swarmed a big full basketball size that I chased around through the neighbors yards...right now she has brood in 4 frames in the 4th super,7 in the 3rd,&8 in the bottom 2, with only queen cups ....as soon as I find some cells that hive will get a 3way split....some swarms are great&some,like the 1 I got last Sat. aren't...they killed their queen the 2nd day I had them


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

NasalSponge said:


> I will hive a swarm and then evaluate them for a bit, if they fail to build up then i will combine or re-queen, if they look good, I let them do their thing!


This is exactly how I treat a swarm. I don't understand requeening a swarm that could be beneficial in offering you some genetic diversity to your apiaries. I set swarm traps up all over my county and a lot of the swarms I catch are from wild unmanaged colonies. Weak colonies don't swarm, stong ones do! Good genetics come from strong colonies!


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## jonathan

baldwinbees said:


> some swarms are great&some,like the 1 I got last Sat. aren't...they killed their queen the 2nd day I had them


Might still have a queen though.

Cast swarms can have more than one queen.
My brother sieved a swarm through a queen excluder and got several virgins in it.


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## NasalSponge

> If I was having month old hives swarm I would be asking questions this is barely enough time to even get a round of brood laying and hatching done.


OK, month and a half, the day I pulled the queen cages I went in for foot surgery and had to sit hopelessly for a month while all of my hives swarmed, this one swarmed twice.....the queen was laying wall to wall, top to bottom.



> Just our own personal opinion


Me too


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## Michael Bush

I've never requeened a swarm. First, if it's a wild one, I want the genetics. Second, if we keep interfering with the bees' ability to detect and replace a queen themselves then we breed bees unable to do so. I want bees who can tell a queen is failing and replace her, not bees that I have to be involved with such things.


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## scdw43

I agree with Michael but, it could be a queen that six weeks ago lived in a treated bee yard in south Georgia. It is because of the unknown that I would replace the queen with know genetics. Genetics that will and have survived in one of my yards. I don't do the whole swarm thing because of this. Protecting what I have is more important to me than free bees. Just my opinion.


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## jajtiii

I'm with Michael Bush. The primary reason that I get excited about a swarm is the queen and her genetics.


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## heaflaw

jonathan said:


> My brother sieved a swarm through a queen excluder and got several virgins in it.


That's a great idea.


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## AramF

Fat Beeman just talked about that on his podcast. Nice to get a confirmation from independent sources.


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## Murdock

I lost a good hive exactly like this last December. She gave out of gas and no local queens were available. Now I re-queen swarms after a few weeks of watching them. I let them re-queen themselves to save genetics.


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## Richard Cryberg

sqkcrk said:


> Have you ever really seen this? How does it expresas itself? Or the opposite? Aren't all colonies of bee apt to swarm, have the tendency?
> 
> I understand, basically, the heritible trait idea, but have you seen it expressed?


I sure have seen it. In both directions. One guy who has years of selectively breeding for non swarming gets 2% or 3% of his production hives swarming each year and great honey production. Another guy who spent 40 years reproducing his bees with swarms from his own hives and swarm cells has selectively bred bees that you can not keep in the hive no matter what you do. If you love little dinks and love no honey production knock yourself out doing splits with swarm cells. You will get what you love. I tried a little dink swarm from that guy as his bees were TF and wintered pretty good. I had a offspring of that dink swarm in mid Sept when it had a two month old queen and had gotten up to six frames of bees. They did winter good TF if you could get enough stores in the box.

Reproduction by splitting and using swarm cells is a mark of a poor bee keeper who is not going to make any honey if he keeps it up. Fortunately in a few years his colonies generally die out because he is doing a lot of other stuff wrong too and he gives up the hobby and stops wrecking the gene pool.


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## rsjohnson2u

frazz: Easy to assume the "oldtimers" are talking about old queens for the sake of your agreement...that's just not my experience. I only catch about three swarms a year, and out of those, two are virgin led on average. Based on sheer numbers (given the number of swarm cells vs. one "old" queen), more swarms are virgin led than not.


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## shannonswyatt

Old thread resurrected. I have no clue where most of the swarms I get come from, but assuming that early prime swarms are from unmanaged colonies I don't think you can say they those bees are any more swarmy than any other bee. If bees in a tree cast a swarm they may just be out of space, but when you can manipulate the hive to try to circumvent swarming. I figure early swarms are from healthy overwintered colonies so I like the idea of keeping those genetics around.

To me swarms are a way to build out nucs. They generally pull out nice comb and if they build up and swarm, did I lose anything? I no longer give swarms drawn comb, I would much rather them draw out boxes of foundation. If they swarm after that I still have the comb they have drawn.

This year I have gotten several secondary casts that the virgin failed to return or something happened to her and I put in a queen or cell from another hive. I don't care if those hives dwindle down to the size of a mating nuc, since that is what they are for me at that point.


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## dtrooster

classic example of the oldest knife in the drawer isn't necessarily the sharpest


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## shannonswyatt

Or "This message was brought to you by the Queen Breeders Association of America"


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