# How or why did you lose hives in the past two yrs. ?



## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

It's not a shame to lose hives,I think this is a very important question.The answers can help everyone what to watch for. There has been 76 views and no replies.


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

How many hives did you lose in the last two years ? 2 Splits
How did you lose them,what happened ? They Died
What breed of bees do you have ? Honey


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Seriously. I made 2 splits that I believe got robbed out short after I made them and they perished. I also had a TBH that died. Not sure what happened to them. I never really paid much attention to them. I was just letting them grow and swarm. Checked on them one day and they were dead. Pretty sure the mites got’em.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

I was reading on number of hives thread and some were saying they lost 6-200 hives.I was wondering what happened for a person to lose so many ? Maybe some of them could reply ?


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I lost 10 or so. They "cold-starved." There was enough stores but no break in the weather so they could get reorganized and move to them.

Dickm


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

part of the reason we have lost bees, is because we have gone in the hives to soon, and they got chilled. Some of the other reasons for last years losses stemmed from improper nutrition due to very inclement weather all spring and summer, and then going into a brutal and long winter.
If i had to do it all over again, hey i guess i did...i put out more pollen in the hives in the fall to give the bees an extra boost. I was also more tough on what hives went into winter and what was not strong enough so i combined. HOpe to see some of the hard choices pay off


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

In the last two years I've lost one hive, apparently due to CCD... It was the only colony of plain jane Italians... all the rest of mine are Russians, Purvis, or B. Weaver bees.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

I can't really tell you have many hives I have lost because I don't keep count. I would say that on average I lose 2 to 3 per yard per year. The reasons...I would say more often then not it is from old or poor queens. The same with losing hives over winter. In most cases it is because the hive didn't have enough bees to make it through the winter, again due to an old or poor queen. I don't have a mite problem (spring and fall EO treatments have worked excellent) and the last year I had two hives with foul brood that immediately went into the fire.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

How many hives did you lose in the last two years ?150+ last year and 250+ this year. It's hard to get an exact count because of the constant replacing of queens, making splits, etc.

How did you lose them,what happened ? Some swarm and never get a mated queen. Some had high mite loads as did the ones that survived after treatment. Some had high nosema counts. Bear got some. Most I never figured out and if I did maybe I could come out of the red.

What breed of bees do you have ? Mainly Italian and Carniolan but there is a mix of just about everything in the operation considering where the queens come from and they are open mated.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

honeyshack said:


> part of the reason we have lost bees, is because we have gone in the hives to soon, and they got chilled. Some of the other reasons for last years losses stemmed from improper nutrition due to very inclement weather all spring and summer, and then going into a brutal and long winter.
> If i had to do it all over again, hey i guess i did...i put out more pollen in the hives in the fall to give the bees an extra boost. I was also more tough on what hives went into winter and what was not strong enough so i combined. HOpe to see some of the hard choices pay off


Yes, the summer was very bad here in Texas,First we had a month and a half of 105 degree weather and then rain for a month and a half,then an early winter. We have inside feeders on our hives with dry sugar. They had alot of store but they were bringing in the pollen untill the freeze. I hope they have pollen for the brood all winter. Maybe I should buy some pollen. We don't combine hives,we cut back the brood boxes and feed them.
You are right,hot ,no rain and then all rain takes a big toll.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

StevenG said:


> In the last two years I've lost one hive, apparently due to CCD... It was the only colony of plain jane Italians... all the rest of mine are Russians, Purvis, or B. Weaver bees.



What is CCD ?


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

alpha6 said:


> I can't really tell you have many hives I have lost because I don't keep count. I would say that on average I lose 2 to 3 per yard per year. The reasons...I would say more often then not it is from old or poor queens. The same with losing hives over winter. In most cases it is because the hive didn't have enough bees to make it through the winter, again due to an old or poor queen. I don't have a mite problem (spring and fall EO treatments have worked excellent) and the last year I had two hives with foul brood that immediately went into the fire.


Yes,weak hives will do it, you must combine for the winter then. Don't your bees swarm ? If you don't re-queen,you need to let them swarm. I know some people have good luck at stoping swarms,do you ?


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

Beeslave said:


> How many hives did you lose in the last two years ?150+ last year and 250+ this year. It's hard to get an exact count because of the constant replacing of queens, making splits, etc.
> 
> How did you lose them,what happened ? Some swarm and never get a mated queen. Some had high mite loads as did the ones that survived after treatment. Some had high nosema counts. Bear got some. Most I never figured out and if I did maybe I could come out of the red.
> 
> What breed of bees do you have ? Mainly Italian and Carniolan but there is a mix of just about everything in the operation considering where the queens come from and they are open mated.


Wow,I'm so sad to hear that.How many hives did you have ? Do you count losing a queen as losing a hive ? We try to keep alot of drones around so the queens get matted real good. We have tried so far not to treat for anything but I know we must keep mites under control by doing mite counts and treat them. We are trying to buy good queens that are resistant to everything and then see how they do and raise our own queens and maybe sell some.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

I see,we must really stay on top of things to keep lose down.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

How many hives did you have ? Summer '08-700 at one time; '09-950 at one time counting Cali(almonds) survivors and spring splits

Do you count losing a queen as losing a hive ? No I don't. By mid july to early august if a hive is found queenless(and weak) and I have used all my nucs made through out the early summer for replacement I shake the bees out and it is a deadout. There is no sense in beating a dead horse to get it to crawl.

Since I first started(spring 2002) with bees and knew little about management I lost less colonies(percentage wise) than I do now. Evey year it is getting worse and worse with percentage of loss. The more I learn the less it feels that I know.


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## m.zook (May 2, 2009)

I havent lost any in the past two years. But this winter is just getting started.. All the past loses were due to mites ( Tracheal and Verroa) leaving my hives to weak to winter. So now I treat with formic acid and havent had a mite problem or any loses since.:lookout:


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

i did not lose any of my four last winter, this summer i bought out a retiring beek who had split most his hives this spring,to make 46, he had not fed them and was letting them raise thier own queens ( a risk here) especially in early summer. when i went and looked them over they were in a cherry orchard, and looked like they were building up. i should have known to feed them as soon as i got them home, but i didn't. everything went pretty well until mid august when we had several days of rain (unheard of here) followed by a cloud of yellowjackets that outright killed 10 hives, and weakened many others. the onslaught started a few days after a family emergency and so it was out of control by the time i discovered it. the reason i had not responded to this thread was that i figured everyone heard enough about this from me when it was happening. when i finally got hives in order this fall i had to combine several weak ones so i count those as losses as well. went into winter with 32 from 50 so 18 lost. justin


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

CCD Colony Collapse Disorder... in my case I did a post mortem, ruled out starvation, absconding, queenlessness, freezing, etc... At this point it seems to be a catch-all classification for when we simply do not know or cannot figure out. There is more to ccd than that, of course, but in layman's terms, it covers that great "unknown." :lookout:
Regards,
Steven


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> Yes,weak hives will do it, you must combine for the winter then. Don't your bees swarm ? If you don't re-queen,you need to let them swarm. I know some people have good luck at stoping swarms,do you ?


No, I have never had a hive swarm. Maybe I misspoke. I do re-queen but don't do a fall re-queening. Yes, if I can catch them in time I will combine, but usually I am concentrating on getting the everything else ready for Calf. and winter then trying to save a few hives.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

a catch-all classification for when we simply do not know or cannot figure out. 

Sometimes the keeper of the bees just can not accept the reality that his miss management caused the demise of the bees.

It's easier to say that something else caused the death of a hive like CCD.
That's my $0.02 worth by direct observation.
Ernie


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

BEES4U said:


> Sometimes the keeper of the bees just can not accept the reality that his miss management caused the demise of the bees.
> Ernie


I wonder about this too. One of the commercial beeks in my area refers to CCD as "PPM" (Piss Poor Management). He is of the opinion that CCD is no more than a combination of the pests/diseases that we know about coupled with poor management techniques. 

In his opinion, he thinks that many commercial beekeepers put too many hives on pallets without providing sufficient ventilating space between them - he thinks that this causes long term overheating (especially on the trucks) which contributes to dwindling brood and adult numbers.

I don't really know what causes CCD (only that it is not new and that it is apparently periodic or cyclical) - but I find his view at least worthy of consideration.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

Beeslave said:


> How many hives did you have ? Summer '08-700 at one time; '09-950 at one time counting Cali(almonds) survivors and spring splits
> 
> Do you count losing a queen as losing a hive ? No I don't. By mid july to early august if a hive is found queenless(and weak) and I have used all my nucs made through out the early summer for replacement I shake the bees out and it is a deadout. There is no sense in beating a dead horse to get it to crawl.
> 
> Since I first started(spring 2002) with bees and knew little about management I lost less colonies(percentage wise) than I do now. Evey year it is getting worse and worse with percentage of loss. The more I learn the less it feels that I know.


I'm so sad to hear this.I think there are many things that has a part in CCD. Do you use foundations or let them draw out their own size cells ? I think putting large bees in small cells is a bad thing and makes bees weak to start with, then the mites and other things add to the weakness. I think we should let the bees draw out their own brood cells for their size.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

m.zook said:


> I havent lost any in the past two years. But this winter is just getting started.. All the past loses were due to mites ( Tracheal and Verroa) leaving my hives to weak to winter. So now I treat with formic acid and havent had a mite problem or any loses since.:lookout:


Where can we buy formic acid ? Do you use foundations,I think we should let bees draw out their own size cells for brood. Putting large bees in to small cells deforms them and weakens them. Then in their weakness the other things like mites kill them.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

justin said:


> i did not lose any of my four last winter, this summer i bought out a retiring beek who had split most his hives this spring,to make 46, he had not fed them and was letting them raise thier own queens ( a risk here) especially in early summer. when i went and looked them over they were in a cherry orchard, and looked like they were building up. i should have known to feed them as soon as i got them home, but i didn't. everything went pretty well until mid august when we had several days of rain (unheard of here) followed by a cloud of yellowjackets that outright killed 10 hives, and weakened many others. the onslaught started a few days after a family emergency and so it was out of control by the time i discovered it. the reason i had not responded to this thread was that i figured everyone heard enough about this from me when it was happening. when i finally got hives in order this fall i had to combine several weak ones so i count those as losses as well. went into winter with 32 from 50 so 18 lost. justin


I'm so sorry to hear this happened.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

StevenG said:


> CCD Colony Collapse Disorder... in my case I did a post mortem, ruled out starvation, absconding, queenlessness, freezing, etc... At this point it seems to be a catch-all classification for when we simply do not know or cannot figure out. There is more to ccd than that, of course, but in layman's terms, it covers that great "unknown." :lookout:
> Regards,
> Steven


I think many things we do wrong weakens them to much and causes CCD. I think it starts with putting large bees in small cells.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Yes, I understand about poor management. The colony that died had scattered sealed brood, probably two cups of dead bees on the screened bottom board, plenty of pollen and sealed honey stores, both to the side and above the coffee-cup sized cluster of dead bees. No indication of water/moisture causing the problems. They were not scattered in cells, tail out indicating starvation. No sign of foulbrood or chalkbrood. 

They were "plain jane" Italians, not advertised as resistant or anything like that. It was the only package I purchased from that particular breeder. It was purchased as a package in April the previous year, hived on foundation in a two story deep brood nest, fed, and produced a surplus of two shallow supers that first year. They were strong in the fall, and I left a shallow super of honey on for winter, in addition to what they had stored in the brood deeps. They were dead the following spring. This past spring. 

I do not treat chemically... That was the only die out I had. Other bees I have are Purvis and B. Weaver. No small hive beetles, so it could have been mites. Or CCD. I am open to suggestions. 
Thanks,
Steven


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

BEES4U said:


> a catch-all classification for when we simply do not know or cannot figure out.
> 
> Sometimes the keeper of the bees just can not accept the reality that his miss management caused the demise of the bees.
> 
> ...


You are very correct.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

NDnewbeek said:


> I wonder about this too. One of the commercial beeks in my area refers to CCD as "PPM" (Piss Poor Management). He is of the opinion that CCD is no more than a combination of the pests/diseases that we know about coupled with poor management techniques.
> 
> In his opinion, he thinks that many commercial beekeepers put too many hives on pallets without providing sufficient ventilating space between them - he thinks that this causes long term overheating (especially on the trucks) which contributes to dwindling brood and adult numbers.
> 
> I don't really know what causes CCD (only that it is not new and that it is apparently periodic or cyclical) - but I find his view at least worthy of consideration.


Bingo,and I think it starts with putting large bees in small cells,deforming the bees. Many things together causes CCD,


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

StevenG said:


> Yes, I understand about poor management. The colony that died had scattered sealed brood, probably two cups of dead bees on the screened bottom board, plenty of pollen and sealed honey stores, both to the side and above the coffee-cup sized cluster of dead bees. No indication of water/moisture causing the problems. They were not scattered in cells, tail out indicating starvation. No sign of foulbrood or chalkbrood.
> 
> They were "plain jane" Italians, not advertised as resistant or anything like that. It was the only package I purchased from that particular breeder. It was purchased as a package in April the previous year, hived on foundation in a two story deep brood nest, fed, and produced a surplus of two shallow supers that first year. They were strong in the fall, and I left a shallow super of honey on for winter, in addition to what they had stored in the brood deeps. They were dead the following spring. This past spring.
> 
> ...



I see all your different breed of bees.The differance in size of all,they all need to draw out their own size of cells for brood. That may be the problem of the one dead hive. Did you use the same foundations for all different bees ?


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## Blackwater Bee (May 1, 2008)

7 Hives
Starvation
Italian


inch: Winter of 2008/09. I had another beekeeper check the deadouts and confirm my suspicions. The losses occurred between Feb. and March of 2009. All the bees were clustered with hundreds inside combs head first. No brood, No honey nor pollen stores, no pests and no evidence of disease. I have 7 strong colonies going into this winter nice and heavy, much better than last.
The Italians are my favorites, but they're pigs, I am changing to Carnis for 2010.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

NDnewbeek and Bees4u,
PPM is one thing that can cause losses. Beeks that have commercially run bees for 30 + years suddenly have troubles that they didn't have before. They are controlling mites and treating for N.C. . CCD is real and is being linked to neonics by Jeff Pettis. So I guess you can say that CCD is linked to PPFP(piss poor farming practices)!
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gen..._one_villain_behind_honey-bee_colony_collapse

For years bees have been on pallets and shipped around the states with losses but not with the high losses being seen now. Why is it all of the sudden a good diet needs to be fed to the bees for them to survive. That wasn't needed 10 yrs. ago in most areas.

Sorry Cordovan Italian Bee for this little hijack.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

It surprises me that there is still so much confusion about what CCD is.

I get that there are still many people that find it a convenient excuse to blame their screw ups on... but still, most of us, at least on this forum, should know the difference between CCD and other loss reasons. 

The easiest way to tell the difference between CCD and any other cause is if the leftover honey gets robbed by other bees if frames are pulled out of the afflicted hive and left out in the sun for the other bees. If they are left untouched after being left out several days, then CCD is a good candidate. If they get robbed, it's not CCD.

PS - @ Beeslave, France banned neonics several years prior to the first noticed case of CCD, yet they continue to have cases of CCD... so I guess you could say that CCD is linked to PPAGAC (Piss Poor Armchair Guessing At Causes). But while we're taking guesses at the causes, my guess is that it's the bee version of HIV / AIDS. But I wouldn't be willing to put money on any one thing being the culprit at this point.

Ok, back to topic:
1 hive to overheating / stupid beekeeper (me) kept them shut in the hive during a hot day - unknown breed
1 real late season swarm (I think it was late october) just never got established - feral bees


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

SgtMaj said:


> It surprises me that there is still so much confusion about what CCD is.
> The easiest way to tell the difference between CCD and any other cause is if the leftover honey gets robbed by other bees if frames are pulled out of the afflicted hive and left out in the sun for the other bees. If they are left untouched after being left out several days, then CCD is a good candidate. If they get robbed, it's not CCD.
> 
> Who and what says this is the official definition of CCD?


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

Beeslave said:


> CCD is real and is being linked to neonics by Jeff Pettis.
> 
> For years bees have been on pallets and shipped around the states with losses but not with the high losses being seen now. Why is it all of the sudden a good diet needs to be fed to the bees for them to survive. That wasn't needed 10 yrs. ago in most areas.


Well, first off - I am just relating what was told to me by a commercial beekeeper in my area. 

Second, yes, CCD is real, and it has happened in the past as well - when there were no neonic pesticides.

Third, there was just an article in the December ABJ by Randy Oliver where he stated, "many beekeepers in Europe, and some in the US, feel strongly that neonics can cause detrimental effects to their colonies. Numerous field trials (by Bayer, government labs, and independent researchers) generally *fail * (emphasis mine) to support this supposition (the continuing reports in the press are generally recycled old research)."

Randy continues, "There is no doubt that some bees are harmed by some neonic applications, but in general, monitored test colonies appear to *thrive *(emphasis mine) when placed adjacent to neonic-treated crops in which the chemical has been properly applied."

So it would seem that at a minimum, given the disagreement, conflicting results and uncertainty surrounding the professional research on neonics, it is likely too early to responsibly draw any definitive conclusions about their role, if any, in CCD.

Perhaps some commercial beekeepers adopted new hauling or prep strategies for hauling just prior to the CCD outbreak. Maybe those affected have gone back to their original strategies and are now CCD free. Perhaps certain management strategy changes are only detrimental in certain regions or environments. I am sure that I don't know.

What I do know, is that collectively, individuals tend to be last to own their failures. It is easier and more comforting to point a finger elsewhere with regard to who/what is responsible for our failures. Ironically, if we are honest, most often the finger should point to the mirror.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> I see all your different breed of bees.The differance in size of all,they all need to draw out their own size of cells for brood. That may be the problem of the one dead hive. Did you use the same foundations for all different bees ?


As I said, the colony that died was "plain jane" Italians... you know, the kind that have been used in this country for over 100 years, and on foundation for that long. yes, I used the same kind of standard foundation in all applications. And no, it wasn't crowding big bees into small cells.... or small bees rattling around in big cells... 

Seems like one of the biggest problems we have is that there simply is no definition for CCD. That's why I used the term "unknown." neo nics? mites? contaminated foundation because beeks use all sorts of chemicals in their hives and it remains in rendered wax, and ends up in foundation? Your guess is as good as mine. That's one reason why I'm moving to foundationless frames this next spring. 

Like many of us, I've learned my lessons the hard way. After my first two years I never lost bees due to starvation, chalkbrood, foulbrood. and, knock on wood, none so far to shb. It could be they succumbed to mites... I'm going to operate on that assumption, since my other colonies were advertised as "mite resistant" or "survivor stock." I realize those two terms are kind of nebulous, but I don't have any better way to describe them. Is there a better, more concise or just as concise way to describe that kind of bee? 
Regards,
Steven


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

Beeslave said:


> CCD is real and is being linked to neonics by Jeff Pettis. So I guess you can say that CCD is linked to PPFP(piss poor farming practices)!
> http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gen..._one_villain_behind_honey-bee_colony_collapse


Beeslave,

The review is good - and, if I had to guess, I would say that Pettis is likely on the right track. But his research does not point exclusively to neonics. He suspects a synergism between management practices (that is, PPM!), pesticides and existing pests/diseases. Alone, any of these is not likely to cause CCD. Pettis suspects (from my reading of the article) that these multiple stresses, with the proper timing and in combination, result in CCD. This theory would also help to explain the cyclical/periodic nature of CCD in the past, as CCD contributing factors randomly align through time to produce an 'outbreak'. 

I also found it interesting that Randy Oliver stressed that test colonies thrive next to neonic treated fields when the pesticide is properly applied (his emphasis). Perhaps the pesticides themselves are not the problem after all, but (as you said) PPFP!

Mike


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How many hives did you lose in the last two years ?

I have no idea... but they have reproduced enough to more than make up for it... so actually I didn't "lose" them. Some just flourished and some didn't. The ones that didn't got combined or died and the equipment used for a split.

>How did you lose them,what happened ?

During the build up and into the fall, usually because they went queenless, usually because of a walk away split that didn't succeed at mating a queen, but sometimes because they swarmed and the new queen failed.

In winter most of the losses are small hives or nucs from splits or from combines of mating nucs that I hoped would make it but a -15 F cold snap did them in. Occasionally a bigger hive starves in late winter.

>What breed of bees do you have ? 

Mutts.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> How many hives did you lose in the last two years ?


Just started back into beekeeping March of this year. I purchased 2 and have split to 8. I lost none.



Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> How did you lose them,what happened ?


I didn't lose any, but have one that went into the winter with low population and low stores. This colony had a Mnn.Hyg queen, which tried to superceed shortly after I put her in a purchased queenless colony. I robbed the supercedure cells and made a split, which did fine. They didn't try to superceed again until Fall, but I guess the virgin didn't get bred. Tecumseh saved me with a queen in October, but she didn't have enough time to produce a large population. The are currently making it now; but are my weakest colony and wouldn't surprise me if they didn't make it.



Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> What breed of bees do you have ?


 Currently have:
1-BeeWeaver Queen
1-Queen raised from Purvis Queen stock
1-Raised Superceeded queen from feral stock
1-Zia Queen
2-Michael Bush's queens
1-Raised from Minn.Hyg. Queen superceedure attempt
1-Tecumseh queen from MinnHyg/BeeWeaver stock


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## dave beeman (Sep 2, 2009)

I lost all hives two years ago. They had stores, no mites that I could find and not many dead in the bottom. I have no idea where they went.:s
I admit that I am one of those beeks that do not use any chemicals in my hives. There are very few feral bees around where I keep mine. Believe it or not, mites have not been my problem.


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## 10hive (Aug 28, 2008)

a hungry bear came thru, one hive never did recover. 2 that were next to it are doing fine now althou i gave them a couple candy boards in Sept.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

Beeslave said:


> NDnewbeek and Bees4u,
> PPM is one thing that can cause losses. Beeks that have commercially run bees for 30 + years suddenly have troubles that they didn't have before. They are controlling mites and treating for N.C. . CCD is real and is being linked to neonics by Jeff Pettis. So I guess you can say that CCD is linked to PPFP(piss poor farming practices)!
> http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gen..._one_villain_behind_honey-bee_colony_collapse
> 
> ...



My friend,You didn't hijack,please everyone tell us what you think. We all need to learn what the problems are so we all can be better bee keepers.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

odfrank said:


> SgtMaj said:
> 
> 
> > It surprises me that there is still so much confusion about what CCD is.
> ...


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

StevenG said:


> As I said, the colony that died was "plain jane" Italians... you know, the kind that have been used in this country for over 100 years, and on foundation for that long. yes, I used the same kind of standard foundation in all applications. And no, it wasn't crowding big bees into small cells.... or small bees rattling around in big cells...
> 
> Seems like one of the biggest problems we have is that there simply is no definition for CCD. That's why I used the term "unknown." neo nics? mites? contaminated foundation because beeks use all sorts of chemicals in their hives and it remains in rendered wax, and ends up in foundation? Your guess is as good as mine. That's one reason why I'm moving to foundationless frames this next spring.
> 
> ...


I'm like you,we are staying away from chemicals, if a hive is taken over by pests or diseases we will just lose it.
What I was saying about cell size,they sell foundations with three size of cells. A person don't really know what size they need for their breed of bees. So,they just buy foundations not knowing and the bees draw that size out and lay their eggs. Well,the cell i'm sure is the wrong size for most bees. All breed of honey bees are not the same size,so the best thing to do is let them draw their own foundation and cells,use frames with no foundations. Let them draw out their own foundations and cells. Making bees draw out cells that are not their size is not good. If a person has three different breed of bees,they will all be different sizes. You should not use the same foundation with the same size cells on each foundation for three different size bees.
Most hobby bee keepers have no knowledge of this and alot of commercial bee keepers don't except. Using factory frames with predetermined cells for any size of bee is not good. This is when CCD got really bad. Making large bees draw out too small of cells and grow the larva in too small a cell deformes the bee.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I am becoming more convinced our loses are due to viruses.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070906140803.htm

I see bees earlier in the season with deformed wing virus. Then I see the December collapse accompanying unusually cold weather for our locale. These bees appear normal but are acting weird or just dieing. I do not see a lot of mites on the bees, bottom boards or SBB trays.

I have a hard time blaming pesticides in my suburban forage area. I did fine for over 30 years not knowing anything about cell sizes of Housel positioning, I think more and more these theories are just Internet bunk thrown around by amateurs and fame seekers. 

PPM is not to blame, I have been doing nothing different and my bees can collect nectar and pollen about 360 days a year.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> I'm like you,we are staying away from chemicals, if a hive is taken over by pests or diseases we will just lose it.
> What I was saying about cell size,they sell foundations with three size of cells. A person don't really know what size they need for their breed of bees. So,they just buy foundations not knowing and the bees draw that size out and lay their eggs. Well,the cell i'm sure is the wrong size for most bees. All breed of honey bees are not the same size,so the best thing to do is let them draw their own foundation and cells,use frames with no foundations. Let them draw out their own foundations and cells. Making bees draw out cells that are not their size is not good. If a person has three different breed of bees,they will all be different sizes. You should not use the same foundation with the same size cells on each foundation for three different size bees.
> Most hobby bee keepers have no knowledge of this and alot of commercial bee keepers don't except. Using factory frames with predetermined cells for any size of bee is not good. This is when CCD got really bad. Making large bees draw out too small of cells and grow the larva in too small a cell deformes the bee.


Ok, let me try to explain this again. The Italian honey bee was first introduced into the United States in 1859. Further queen importation occured in 1860, and the sale of Italian queens began in 1861. So we have had Italian bees in this country for 148 years - 1861-2009. Comb foundation was developed in the mid 19th century, inserted in the moveable frame. Reinforced wax comb foundation was perfected in 1921 when Dadant & Sons perfected the crimp wire process. For the sake of argument, let's say that at that time, large cells became the norm. Since those seem to be the cells that we are now trying to "regress" from, back to a more "natural" size. 

So, now the year is 2009. The race of bee that died on me has been here 148 years, and was hived on foundation in use since 1921. CCD is a recent development. It is illogical to assume that ccd is related to "bees draw out too small of cells and grow the larva in too small cells" when the bees and the cells are both large, and have gotten along quite fine for at least 88 years. 

Now, like others, I am moving from foundation to foundationless, for many reasons. But there is absolutely no way that the cell size caused that hive to collapse. There have been professional articles written about how large cells cause bees to spend a little more time in the cell to grow to the size of the cell. In other words, large cells begat large bees, which gives mites more time to thrive.

Conversely, Mike Bush and others have demonstrated that as the bees regress to a "natural" cell size, they do so in a series of steps. The bees are not "forced" or "deformed" by being crowded into cells. The bee pupae simply grows to the limit of its cell. In much the same way you take a goldfish from a fish bowl, and put it in a pond, it's offspring over time will become meal size, instead of bite-size. You see the results of reversing the process, for example, in the canine race of Poodles. The Standard Poodle is a large dog. But it has been bred to different sizes - down to toy, a very small dog. The dog is not deformed, it is simply smaller. 

Deformites that occur in honey bees are the results of either viruses, or mites feeding on the pupae. Perhaps the most obvious deformity we see is DWV - Deformed Wing Virus. That describes both the deformity and the cause of the deformity. I would suggest reading _ABC & XYZ of Bee Culture_ and _The Hive and the Honey Bee._ The actual cause of CCD has yet to be determined. Like others, I suspect it is cause by viral infections, with other culprits involved. Probably pesticides, and even mites acting as a vector. But that jury is still out.
Regards,
Steven


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Well, in the largest cell in the colony, the queen cell, developmental time is reduced, not extended. I don't think you can back up your claim.


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

StevenG said:


> The Standard Poodle is a large dog. But it has been bred to different sizes - down to toy, a very small dog. The dog is not deformed, it is simply smaller.


t:Not to pick nits, but in the miniature breeds, the dog's skull actually is deformed, structurally. The significant bones most affected are the frontal, nasal, maxilla and premaxilla. The frontal, especially, overgrows the brow becoming pronounced. The more it overgrows, the more 'pug-like' the dogs face becomes (this is artificially selected for more among certain breeds over others). 

Domestic dogs gestate for an average of 63 days (with a range of around 58 to 68 days). This time period does not change for the different breeds. Essentially, by selectively breeding to make dogs smaller - they complete development before their gestation period is over. The bones, however, continue to grow - producing the pronounced forehead characteristic of miniature breeds.

Whether or not this also applies to bees, I have no idea - I offer it merely as a point of order.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

:doh: Thank you for the correction NDnewbeek. Having grown up with miniature and toy poodles (my mother loved that breed) I simply reported on what I, as a layman, observed. They simply did not look deformed. In much the same way, the deformites we non-scientific beeks observe without benefit of microscopic analysis of our bees, such as DWV. But your point is well taken, and I should have selected a better analogy. 

Tom G. Laury, I am simply responding to what Mike Bush has observed and posted on his web site. http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm 
He says that with small cells, you get "8 hours shorter capping time halves the number of Varroa infesting a brood cell. 8 hours shorter post capping time halves the number of offspring of a Varroa in the brood cell." He goes on to explain his reasoning regarding the time, etc.

I do not yet have any experience with small cell, as I have not yet made the transition. I am starting to do that this coming spring. I am simply conveying information shared by others, much more experienced and knowledgeable than I. 

What I really like about this give and take that occurs on this forum is that it is forcing a great many of us to become much more knowledgeable about keeping bees than we had to be 20 years ago. As George Imirie pointed out, anyone can be a bee HAVER, but it takes work to be a bee KEEPER. And over the long term, it seems only bee Keepers thrive. :scratch: It sure was easier to keep bees before the mid 1980's. They say if you exercise your brain, you'll delay the onset of Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia... Become a beekeeper! :lpf:
Regards,
Steven


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The 8 hours is the projection of the effect in a mathematical model that was published. What I observe is a day shorter capping and a day shorter post capping, which is significantly more than 8 hours.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

StevenG said:


> So, now the year is 2009. The race of bee that died on me has been here 148 years, and was hived on foundation in use since 1921. CCD is a recent development. It is illogical to assume that ccd is related to "bees draw out too small of cells and grow the larva in too small cells" when the bees and the cells are both large, and have gotten along quite fine for at least 88 years.


The black bees are smaller bees and most likely do fine in the small cells but the larger Italian bees are the ones most people have trouble with CCD with. People I talk to with large Italian bees that let their bees draw their own foundations and cells have alot less CCD. What I'm saying is,small cells is not the only thing causing CCD but along with pests and diseases they don't have much of a chance but to collapse. Let nature have it's way and the bees will do much better. Man can mess up anything. So,for 88 yrs. the natural bee comb bee does fine but the messed up ones don't.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

If you read your postings on this thread, you'll discover you've refuted your own argument.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

StevenG said:


> I do not yet have any experience with small cell, as I have not yet made the transition. I am starting to do that this coming spring. I am simply conveying information shared by others, much more experienced and knowledgeable than I.


The only natural size cells are the ones each size of bee draws for it's size.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

So what Are Natural Sized Cells?
I have measured a lot of natural drawn combs. I have seen worker brood in the range of 4.6 mm to 5.1 mm with most in the 4.7 to 4.8 ranges. I have not seen any large areas of 5.4 mm cells. So I would have to say:

Conclusions:
Based on my measurements of natural worker brood comb: 
o There is nothing UNnatural about 4.9 mm worker cells. 
o 5.4 mm worker cells are not the norm in a brood nest. 
o Small cell and natural cell have been adequate for me to have hives that are stable against Varroa mites with no treatments. 

For an unbiased assessment of the health of my hives, here are health certificates from 2004 on. 

_________________________________________


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

StevenG said:


> If you read your postings on this thread, you'll discover you've refuted your own argument.


I don't think you understand what I say.


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## icodebot (Apr 18, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >How many hives did you lose in the last two years ?
> 
> I have no idea... but they have reproduced enough to more than make up for it... so actually I didn't "lose" them. Some just flourished and some didn't. The ones that didn't got combined or died and the equipment used for a split.


I love how you never give black/white, true/false direct answers. The questions people ask seem valid, but always a bit mis-focused somehow. So you give the honest, most correct answer possible, while at the same time the wise reader will read between the lines, and realize the original question is misdirected. 

It's like an episode of Kung Foo, and we are the young grass hoppers!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Like I often say about poor honey production, colony loss is due to poor management. But that is probably an over simplification. But that's the reason mine died, probably. It wasn't the weather. It probably was due to varroa mites and nosema, but I don't know. Some of it was probably due to poorly mated queens. Some probably due to moving them a couple of times from SC to NY and then to their summer yards and then back to SC.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

I’m interested in nailing down why people lose hives, was it diseases and pests or factory foundation cell size or some of all. There is a cause for CCD, I want to find out what it is. It looks like most people don’t really know why they lose hives but there is a reason for CCD.So I would like those of you who lost hives to answer all questions, please.

What breed of bees did you have you lost, are they yellow looking bees or are they black looking bees ? Here are links you can look at pictures of different bees to know what breed you have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maltese_honey_bee.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dark_bee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carniolan_honey_bee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Buckfast_bee.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_bee

Do you know the signs of diseases and pests ?

Were your bees heavily infested with diseases or pests ? What kind ? 

Did your bees draw (make)their own foundations and comb for the brood ?

Were there ants in your hive ?

Did they die during the winter ?

Were the hives strong 50-60 thousand bees ?

Did they have a lot of store for the winter ?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Cordovan Italian Bee said:


> So I would like those of you who lost hives to answer all questions, please.


Nope, sorry, not gonna do it. I don't really have accurate answers to all of your questions and I don't believe that if you got all of us to answer all of your questions that you will be any closer to answering the CCD question. If this is a real scientific inquiry and not just an attempt to discuss, then it has been poorly presented, imo. Good luck.

Answering these questions and then extrapolating hypothoses will in my opinion produce fruitless assumptions.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Regarding the issue of Colony Collapse, Randy Oliver has an interesting article titled "The Economy of the Hive" in the American Bee Journal, January 2010. This begins a series of articles which promises to be very interesting.
Regards,
Steven


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Now if we could just get :" Economics of Beekeeping ".


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## shughes (Jan 17, 2007)

I lost more hives to vandalism and theft last year then to mother nature. will never understand some folks motivations.


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

Lost four out of ten Russian hives in the last year due to beginner ignorance. I'm much better educated and armed to the teeth this year.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Its too early to say. Ask me in April


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

I just sold my house to a lady who used to keep bees. The final offer to sell the house required me to sell her a hive with the house. That's how I lost the last one. (True story). 

Before that, I had a hive get into pesticides of some sort.


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