# Industrial Beekeeper



## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

Mark you might be onto something, but is Industrial really the right term?


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## Beetrucker74 (Oct 10, 2010)

Mark we have a term for these guys with low numbers selling some honey and doing local pollination. They are sideliners which is what most people are with up to say 1000 hives. These people mostly are working a normal job and running bees on the side with dreams of someday doing it full time. And then you have the real commercial operations were they are running enough bees that they can make 90% of their income and maybe a part time help.
Just because someone makes some money from bees doesn't make them commercial. The real term should probably be Factory Bee Farm for really large operations say 5000 hives or more since most are.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> is it time for new terminology to distinguish beekeepers who do a lot of pollination and less honey production than before from other Commercial Beekeepers?


If we keep this up the tag line under the post is going to be bigger than the post. Something like:

TF XSCOM 1000+ NH NB AB O50 CHOORY's PP QB SB SH BSA-OS CAtCC............. 

Treatment free extra small commercial over 1000 hives No Hair NO Brains All Balls Over 50 Comb honey only on rainy year's Package producer Queen breeder Still broke Still happy. Beesource addict in the off season continually adapting to changing conditions..............:s

You do have a good point none the less!!!!!!!!!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

matt1954 said:


> Mark you might be onto something, but is Industrial really the right term?


I don't know. It's a start. Is SemiPro a proper term for a part timer?


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Honey-4-All said:


> You do have a good point none the less!!!!!!!!!!


Yes, but if he keeps his bee keeping hat on no one will know.

Just kidding, I couldn't pass that one up.


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## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

Full time, part time, hobbiest. Sounds good to me. But wait I'm full time yet I run 30-50 hives as a part time hobby? I'm a full time partobbiest!!! Now I'm confused!


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Mark I cannot believe you started this all up again. You must not be keeping busy enough.:lookout:

People can call themselves what they want. And they would still be wrong in someone's opinion.
Sheri


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Don't the designations already exist in common usage?

And I think everyone knows what category their own operation falls into.
for example:
- large commercial migratory (stationary) pollinator (honey producer)
- commercial migratory (stationary) pollinator (honey producer)
- boutique/side-liner migratory (stationary) pollinator (honey producer)
- hobbyist

same goes with honey packers, honey sellers, bee producers, queen producers, bee food producers, wooden ware etc.

Am I missing something?


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

There's a very odd caste system in beekeeping that I haven't seen in other forms of agriculture. If someone makes part of his income from selling honey, and part of it from teaching beekeeping classes and giving lectures, he is not a commercial beekeeper.

But if a cattle rancher has to take a job off the farm to keep his operation going, no one says he's not a real cattle rancher. A dairy farmer with a 100 cows is just as much a dairy farmer as one with 2000.

How did these distinctions in beekeeping arise, and why did they come to be so important? I've noticed that many of the great beekeepers of the past would be considered sideliners today, even though they laid the foundations of modern beekeeping.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> How did these distinctions in beekeeping arise, and why did they come to be so important?


who thinks it's so important?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Mark does?


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

Beetrucker74 said:


> Just because someone makes some money from bees doesn't make them commercial. The real term should probably be Factory Bee Farm for really large operations say 5000 hives or more since most are.


Well that is far from the truth.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

rhaldridge said:


> But if a cattle rancher has to take a job off the farm to keep his operation going, no one says he's not a real cattle rancher. A dairy farmer with a 100 cows is just as much a dairy farmer as one with 2000.
> 
> ing.


No that's not entirely true. It's much the same as with beekeeping. Let's say 80 cows is like 250 hives, both need an off farm job to keep going. 

And then you have the "all hat" cowboys with a cow and three horses. They try to tell you all THAT and then some. 
Yup, exactly like Beekeeping


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

classic, Ian


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> No that's not entirely true. It's much the same as with beekeeping. Let's say 80 cows is like 250 hives, both need an off farm job to keep going.
> 
> And then you have the "all hat" cowboys with a cow and three horses. They try to tell you all THAT and then some.
> Yup, exactly like Beekeeping


.....and they even make songs about them. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFM7teLinOA


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

All hat, , no cattle, ain't going to get er done 

Lol


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## beebreeder (Nov 24, 2009)

And it depends where in the world you are as in the UK anything from 40 hives upwards means you can join the Bee Farmers Association, making a living from bees alone is extremely hard over here most sell kit, teach etc to help make it pay, with monoculture and smaller field sizes big crops of honey are harder to get


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

A beekeeper with a thousand hives should gross most of 400 grand. How could that be a sideliner?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

That is a pretty optimistic gross. Are you figuring a big honey crop and a big pollination season every year?


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

No, if I cut down to 1000ish, I would bring north 1200 hoping to average 100 lbs per hive using my best locations. That's 240 grand. For my practices, I go south to Texas with around 1100. Then pollinate almonds with around 1000. That's around 150 grand. Then return them back to Texas and fill my dead first with the goal of filling 1000 four frame nucs to sell for 70ish. For another 70 grand. This doesn't factor any wax, queens or cells that I would sell.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

mark
ya cant work bees everyday so ya got too much time to think. lol as far as im concerned if you make a living from bees your commercial. numbers are for people on a ego trip. a queen breeder with 200 hives may be able to gross the same amount as a guy with 1000 hives. I am making as much with a few hundred hives as when I had 1200 hives. the difference is you take away hired help, tractor trailer and high over head, the money you keep in your pocket increases. with larger numbers everything is slam bang to get done. if yards had 2-3 poor hives each it did not seem too important but could result in 10% of your income lost. with todays problems quality beekeeping is more important than quanity. just my thoughts. (2cents worth) 
ps just got to sc. 72 degrees tomorrow. unusual warm


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

clyderoad said:


> who thinks it's so important?


Maybe when we are 20 000 posts plus Bee Sorcerers we will think it to be important too?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Did you read the First Post in this Thread Mate?

Important? Maybe not. Who cares? Apparently not very many people. It was just something I was wondering about. So shoot me for Posting a passing thought if it make you feel better. Or Post a Thread of your own which you think is more important, pertinent, or topical.

We could be discussing Duck Dynasty,:lookout: ,but only in Tailgater.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Mark: I re-read your op. I see where you are coming from but I would also encourage folks posting here to re-read the definition of the commercial forum which I think pretty much covers it. I think it's the perspective for how you manage your bees that's important. Hive numbers are not necessarily a determinant here, it's management perspective. Dollars per hive? (all I can say in response to Babybee is "wow, I can't do that") again not so important as there are those who certainly do emphasize quantity over quality. In the final analysis, though, if your primary perspective is your bottom line (do you file a schedule F for your operation?) then your commercial with the caveat that there are lots and lots of ways to manage hives commercially, we don't need a category for each one.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thank you Jim. Another category was not my goal, just stimulating discussion on about how people see what they call commercial beekeepers. Unlike some other Forums w/in beesource Commercials don't call for showing your credentials before Posting in the Commercial Forum. But it does seem like most Posts in the Commercial Forum are statements made by folks who probably wouldn't call themselves Commercial. Certainly wouldn't be considered Commercial at the ABF or AHPA Conferences.

When the category is so brawd (how do u spell that word) what does the term mean?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Well the way I see it, the Beekeepers who flash their credentials and argue about how commercial they are, aren't. 
Commercial Beekeepers just call themselves as such because they are

And when a beekeeper is actually a commercial operator, they could care less of that fact ! Ha ha ha


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I'd agree that 400 bucks per hive might be a little on the optimistic side... But I guess it all depends on what you selling and how much of it... 1 split, and 100lbs of honey per hive, plus pollination?

I don't get anywhere near that... most years I'm paying money into the hives... But I still haven't figured it all out yet...


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

Why not be optimistic? The alternative is that I could point out that you may have a poor honey crop, then have major bee losses going into winter, decide not to pollinate, then still end up having to buy brood to make up your dead!! But if you know what you are doing most if not all of that can be avoided, sure we can't control the weather or the floral situation, but everything else is on us.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

babybee said:


> A beekeeper with a thousand hives should gross most of 400 grand.


Do you do that? Proportionally?


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

If that was the case babybee, then commercial guys would not be having a 10-80%+ loss of hives every year... I'm sure they.would rather pocket that money, instead of dumping it into dead outs..


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

Mark, no but I could if I cut back my numbers. I am closer to 300 gross per hive. Kevin, to say guys lose 10 percent to 80 percent in the same sentence and not see the difference between those numbers?? If you had 1000 hives and 100 die off who cares??? You make huge money. If 80 percent die off more than once find a new career.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

what do u net? how many r u running? r u for real?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Babybee is the real deal. I think he just embellished a bit to make a point. He's right, $300 with today's prices is pretty doable.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

He must work harder than I do.


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## Brian Suchan (Apr 6, 2005)

Of that 300$ how much left in the end? Goin up and down the road, housing, taxes, insurance, trucks, feed and more feed, etc???????


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> He must work harder than I do.


I don't know about that, I'm just saying the math works IF you get 100 pound averages and IF you get 60% of your producing hives in the Almonds then it adds up. Lots of IFS there of course and expenses as well.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

But our job is to make those ifs onto most likelys. Keep the bees as healthy as possible. When I started I was stubborn and thought I knew it all and I struggled. So I watched my neighbors closely. Why did they make more honey than me? Why did they have better bees than me? I watched learned listened and then adapted. As far as profit... well we are like any farmer as in we expense as much out as possible. New trucks, forklifts, buildings, boxes, and so on.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Babybee,

Your approach is great! Beekeeping is not an easy job, but if you love what you do, there is no better job. I think people can be their own worst enemy when it comes to making things work, myself included. There is an old term I remember hearing as a kid, "barnyard blindness", which means it can be difficult for us to see our own mistakes and flaws because we are blind to what is going on around us. There are many skilled beekeepers out there and I enjoy talking with them. Most are truly genuine and willing to share IF you are willing to listen.

Merry Christmas Everyone!
Joe


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## borada bee doc (Feb 6, 2010)

"it does seem like most Posts in the Commercial Forum are statements made by folks who probably wouldn't call themselves Commercial. Certainly wouldn't be considered Commercial at the ABF or AHPA Conferences.

When the category is so brawd (how do u spell that word) what does the term mean?"

Mark, could it be beneficial to have another category such as a large commercial or sideliner forum? Small sideline input may, at times, be distracting. It can also be very entertaining and nostalgic. Aside from the commercial "merit badge" sentiment issues which some contributors seem to express in prior posts, would it help to have another category?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

May not apply cos I'm in a different country, but where I am, anyone making their whole income from their bees, is a commercial beekeeper.

I know one family living off 350 hives. Can't really call them sideliners cos sideline to what? Since bees is all they do.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

How much does that family fret over being labeled commercial ? I bet it does not cross their mind


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

So I'm an s corp with40 hives IRS looks at me as commercial I guess that's the deciding factor.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mac said:


> So I'm an s corp with40 hives IRS looks at me as commercial I guess that's the deciding factor.


IRS considers you commercial? What is your S Corp for? Not for your bees, is it? IRS has never told me what the IRS considers me. Do you file a Profit or Loss Schedule F just for your bees?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Did you put 'beekeeping' as your line of work when you filed for incorporation, mac?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Good point Mac , formalizing your company gives it a "corporate " title, which just reeks of commercial status !


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Just noticed on another Thread that one of our fellow beekeepers from England referred to some beekeepers as "Industrial beekeepers". Is that what commercial beekeepers are called in England?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Did you put 'beekeeping' as your line of work when you filed for incorporation, mac?


Is that the cut off Barry? If one enters Beekeeper on the line where you identify your occupation?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

The line is how Jim stated it in post 25. I'm just curious to know what mac is actually saying in his statement. I'm incorporated as well, and I know one has to state the type of business that is being done. I can't imagine that any tax accountant would justify incorporating for a 40 hive business.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Cost are not prohibitive , at least not up here


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Not so much the cost as all the extra paperwork and filing. You have to do a certain level of business before you will see any savings by being incorporated. I forget what it is, but remember going over this back when I incorporated years ago.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya we are incorporated and our business is substantial so I can say I'm familiar with the smaller aspects but the beauty of forming a company is that ability to seperate your self from the business and allow it to operate within its self, being small or large. 
In my eye if that person is willing to provide all the formalities organizing as a company is the way to go

From my perspective anyway


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

An LLC would seem to be a simpler option while achieving the same basic goals.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

What's a LLC?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

A useful comparison and explanation of Subchapter S corporations vs LLCs is here:

http://www.sba.gov/community/blogs/...visor/should-my-company-be-llc-s-corp-or-both

One interesting point is that LLCs must be dissolved when any member dies or enters bankruptcy. That is not the case with a corporation, whether Subchapter S or not.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Okay , I'm not familiar with all that. Sounds like there is a lot of variations for the small business owner in the US.
The US, land of the lawyers and accountants !!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> The line is how Jim stated it in post 25.


So the line is the filing of a Schedule F. Agreed.


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

I think your ranking in the beekeeping hierarchy is directly connected to your ability to be industrious. ha


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Want a laugh. Incorporated beekeepers don't own their own bees. They just own a company.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Where I'm at, it's roughly 300 bucks per year for an LLC and 200 dollars a year minimal tax between business licenses, state/county minimal... This is all self filing without an CPA... Which I paid for the first year and they screwed up all the paperwork... 

Anything above that starts involving math to figure out what your profit/lost is... But at a minimal, you should be making enough money to offset the 500 bucks per year that your paying for the "right" to have an llc/business.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>What's a LLC?<<

We dont own our hives or trucks. The LLC(limited liability company) does. In California that is an $800 per year tax "for the privilege of doing business in California" as the State puts it.
The LLC is a " pass through" entity which means the owner/members pay taxes on the profits of the LLC. The LLC pays no taxes on income.LLCs were originally set up to give the owners a legal entity to keep assets separate from personal assets in case of lawsuits. This separation has been eroded by legal decisions since then, so that protection isn't as strong as it once was.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

LLC stands for limited liability corporation... It's basically a way that you can protect yourself from liability... But you have to run the business 100% as it's own entity.. separate bank accounts, holding the required meetings, etc

If you muddy the water and combine personal and llc assets then you are not functioning a separate entity and it's easier for the lawyers to "pierce" the corporate vale.. As it's called in the small business books...

The whole purpose is the idea that they can take your bee truck but not your house, in the event that you breed a pack of killer bees that takes out San Fransisco.. With that said most of the "big businesses" carry umbrella polices to protect their bee assets also.

I haven't bothered to incorporate my bee business yet, because it's still more of a hobby/play ground.. But, We ran my wife's business for years and I'll probably form an LLC for my bees in the next couple years.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> So the line is the filing of a Schedule F. Agreed.


No, wouldn't matter what type of tax structure one uses. Jim said it was the bottom line. Basically if one derives their main income from beekeeping, I'd call it commercial. Within commercial there will be the really small guy to the big outfit.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It's clear to me that quite a few of the migratory pollinator outfits are industrial since they use a factory model all the way through.

Beekeepers who are making honey and selling bees would more properly be called commercial.

It's like trying to compare Walmart to a local proprietor owned store.

One is a pillar of the community, the other is more like locusts.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

WLC said:


> It's clear to me that quite a few of the migratory pollinator outfits are industrial since they use a factory model all the way through.
> 
> Beekeepers who are making honey and selling bees would more properly be called commercial.
> 
> ...


OK, I am going to further stretch the definition of "off-topic".

This sort of attitude reflected above is one of the reasons we started the commercial forum in the first place, trying to leave these bashers behind and keep the discussion relevant to commercial beekeeping. 

Perhaps a recently published article could shed a little light on the subject . http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2012/05/insect-pollinators-contribute-29b-us-farm-income
Doesn't sound like "locusts" to me. 
Walmart was brought up as a comparison and there are quite a few folks who boycott them as a matter of principle. Likewise, it would seem only logical if one felt so strongly against migratory beekeeping that one would choose to live without crops pollinated by these so-called locusts. 
Sheri


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

With 1.6 million hives in California for almond pollination, perhaps there's a better analogy than 'locusts' and Walmart.

I'm also thinking about those operations with well over 1,000 colonies.

How many drop deck trailers, holding yards, etc., does that involve?

How would you categorize Bret Adee and John Miller?

'Commercial' just doesn't fit the bill.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

"An LLC would seem to be a simpler option while achieving the same basic goals."


Our Canadian LTD corporation provides a seperation of company assets and personal assets but as I skimmed the definition of LLC it sounds as if your government has modified it further to allow some tax advantages to the business owner. 
Unless I misunderstood


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So WCL sees Walmart as a pillar of the community and locally owned stores as locusts? Huh.

Do Deleted Posts get counted towards the total?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Beetrucker was pretty close to the mark:

"The real term should probably be Factory Bee Farm for really large operations say 5000 hives or more since most are. "


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

WLC, I appreciate the requalification, those in such an important spot in the food chain sure shouldn't be denigrated as locust. 
Many families making their entire (or even a substantial) living off bees have more than 1000 colonies, nothing unusual about that.
And yes, I would consider Adees and Millers commercial, taken to the nth degree. 
It is easy to denigrate other business models, but we all have the same goals, which is feeding and keeping a roof over our family(families in the case of many commercials), while also supplying an important commodity. 
Many commercials talk in terms of semi loads in California, not number of colonies. As for holding yards, the Adees take up miles of holding yards, lol, but bees are still bees and the huge operations have the same issues in keeping their boxes filled with healthy bees as the guy with 1 semi out there. If anything, it is much more difficult, with more logistics and employees to worry about. 
Sheri


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

You guys are splitting hairs that don't really need to be split... If you are doing it for a profit... your in a business aka commercial beekeeping... Good enough for the IRS it should be good enough for some keyboard beekeepers.

It doesn't matter if you have 5 hives or O M GEEE 620,000 hives... It's still the same principles.. The same mechanics apply... You just find ways to do things faster, save money, or pay people to babysit them.

The guy with 620k hives might get his sugar at 25 cents, when you get yours at 50 cents, but he pays his employees while you slave labor your dog... 

Whether your selling honey, selling bees/queens, or making almond/blue berries... This is a moot point, it's still a business....

If you put as much energy into solving real problems.... And not looking for imaginary ones..


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

yep


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Just noticed on another Thread that one of our fellow beekeepers from England referred to some beekeepers as "Industrial beekeepers". Is that what commercial beekeepers are called in England?


I don't know who said that, but no, they are called commercial.

Weather permitting as always, some colonies can collect up to 200lb but taking an average of say 80lb and sold to a honey packer would sell for $301, or bottling and selling retail(obviously more costs involved) $655... often much more, especially heather, which also sells for more to the packers than i have put here, take out a small nuc to over winter and sell in spring $319 some sell for a bit more, current year nucs with new queens,around $278. 

F1 queens, UK reared queens, around $68.80, isolated mated queens $163.81, breeders $491 i usually rear between 700 to 1200 queens a year.

So take 80lb of normal floral honey plus a nuc can = $620 give or take.

But probably not much different when the cost of just about everything in UK is much higher than in USA, especially fuel for trucks, cars, ect.


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## Pops (Nov 29, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> There's a very odd caste system in beekeeping that I haven't seen in other forms of agriculture. If someone makes part of his income from selling honey, and part of it from teaching beekeeping classes and giving lectures, he is not a commercial beekeeper.
> 
> But if a cattle rancher has to take a job off the farm to keep his operation going, no one says he's not a real cattle rancher. A dairy farmer with a 100 cows is just as much a dairy farmer as one with 2000.
> 
> How did these distinctions in beekeeping arise, and why did they come to be so important? I've noticed that many of the great beekeepers of the past would be considered sideliners today, even though they laid the foundations of modern beekeeping.



Ray it is the Royal order of things


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Like I have said it's only important to Beekeepers who need titles beside there name


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

i know i have no business speaking here, but... the commercial beekeepers i know that operate on the large scale being discussed here change their operations quite a bit. some years they might seem industrial, other years they are selling nuc's or trying for a honey crop. i've seen drastic management changes from year to year. it's a fairly new business and the equipment involved is still half modified from other jobs/ and half too specialized to be affordable. wintering strategies seem to still be changing year to year. it seems like people are trying to polarize or define everyone over a certain size but it seems to me that those operations have not been what they are very long and will probably be something different soon. it probably doesn't feel like a new business when you've been living in motels and travel trailers for a bunch of winters but it does seem to still be changing a lot. justin


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Honey-4-All said:


> If we keep this up the tag line under the post is going to be bigger than the post. Something like:
> 
> TF XSCOM 1000+ NH NB AB O50 CHOORY's PP QB SB SH BSA-OS CAtCC.............
> 
> ...


Very funny Phil!!! :lpf:


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