# Just wondering...



## westtnbeekeeper (Oct 26, 2015)

I was perusing extractors this morning and mann lake sells a 110 to 220 converter box and vice versa on one of their extractor pages. Are these motors designed to run on 220 or 110 voltage? I understand from other reading that running motors on 220 volts amounts to less strain on the motor.

Just wondering during the long wondering season...:scratch:


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Usually the main reason to do a conversion is if you don't have 220 service in the location. If you have the option to use 220 that would be the first choice, because you just won't be pushing the wires and breakers as hard. I wouldn't do a conversion without a specific good reason though.


----------



## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

westtnbeekeeper said:


> I was perusing extractors this morning and mann lake sells a 110 to 220 converter box and vice versa on one of their extractor pages. Are these motors designed to run on 220 or 110 voltage? I understand from other reading that running motors on 220 volts amounts to less strain on the motor.
> 
> Just wondering during the long wondering season...:scratch:


My guess is the motors are 'multi-tap' meaning they can be run at different voltages. The switch just routes your power to the desired 'tap' wire. But amps are amps and power use will be essentially the same.

From what an electrical engineer (sparks not trains) explained to me, the efficiency of higher voltages and 3-phase power is only gleaned with larger motors and mainly on start-up. This is why you'll often find commercial heating and air wired 3-phase as well has large machine motors wired 480v 3-phase if it's available at the location.

From an economical standpoint, higher voltage means one can run a lighter gauge copper wire with less voltage drop. This is why we would often run 277/480v lighting in schools. Long runs of lighter gauge wire cost less $

So it's more a matter of what is the most convenient and available. Hope that helps. Didn't mean to write War & Peace.

EDIT: Sorry, I looked at the 'converter' on Mannlake site. It looks like it's just a transformer that either steps up or reduces the line voltage to whatever the motor uses. I can't see any advantage. Perhaps a solution if one found used 220v and wants to run it in a shop that is only wired 110/120vac


----------



## westtnbeekeeper (Oct 26, 2015)

Ok cool...

Some of the table saws i have been looking at can be wired for 220 voltage. Wondered if an extractor would benefit from the same procedure. My ohms law is not just rusty... It has become non-existent. I know enough about electricity to be dangerous most of the time.:lookout:

220 voltage is referred to as 3 phase??? Two legs of 110 coming in with a ground. 440 or 480 being the same way. A pair of 220 legs and a ground.:s

I doubt my tiny operation warrants such an extractor in the near future but I wanted to be informed in case the opportunity presented itself.:kn:

I appreciate the replies no matter the length. There is one thing that puzzles me though...:s The higher voltage and lighter wire thing...? Most of the building codes require heavier wire for 220 appliances. Would that have more to do with amperage than voltage?

In the future when I get my honey house off the ground I will have 220 available if I need it. I just don't know at this point how large of an operation I can maintain. Hobbyist probably... Side liner probably not. 5 hives so far... Thinking 20 to 30 would be a max for me and still work a full time job. Rambling slightly off topic...t::doh:


----------



## Snapset (May 2, 2015)

westtnbeekeeper said:


> Ok cool...
> 
> Some of the table saws i have been looking at can be wired for 220 voltage. Wondered if an extractor would benefit from the same procedure. My ohms law is not just rusty... It has become non-existent. I know enough about electricity to be dangerous most of the time.:lookout:
> 
> 220 voltage is referred to as 3 phase???


Most likely not. Almost all residential services are 110/220 single phase, with a grounded center tap for the neutral. The 2 110 volt taps are 180 degrees out of phase, giving you an effective voltage between them of 220 volts.



westtnbeekeeper said:


> Two legs of 110 coming in with a ground. 440 or 480 being the same way. A pair of 220 legs and a ground.:s
> 
> I doubt my tiny operation warrants such an extractor in the near future but I wanted to be informed in case the opportunity presented itself.:kn:
> 
> I appreciate the replies no matter the length. There is one thing that puzzles me though...:s The higher voltage and lighter wire thing...? Most of the building codes require heavier wire for 220 appliances. Would that have more to do with amperage than voltage?


-Yes. To accomplish the same amount of work the wires would have to be even bigger if the voltage was 110. 



westtnbeekeeper said:


> In the future when I get my honey house off the ground I will have 220 available if I need it. I just don't know at this point how large of an operation I can maintain. Hobbyist probably... Side liner probably not. 5 hives so far... Thinking 20 to 30 would be a max for me and still work a full time job. Rambling slightly off topic...t::doh:


You can approximate a 3 phase power supply by using an inverter, but if you do, you need to double the size of the inverter because you are only feeding it single phase. i.e.- a 10hp inverter for a 5 hp motor


----------



## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

If you go with a 3 phase service over a 1 phase 200 amp service it will cost you about twice as much to put the service panel in the building.The two biggest things that will eat your amperage is heating and cooling.


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


----------



## herbhome (Oct 18, 2015)

Equipment that runs on 240 single phase is generally heavier,(more horsepower). If you ran the same motor on 120, the amperage draw would double and overload the rating of the wire. For example, household outlets are rated at 20A and use 12ga wire, while an electric range can be rated at 240V-50A and is wired with 8ga.
So, bigger machines, higher voltage.
Clear as mud?


----------



## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

westtnbeekeeper said:


> Ok cool...
> 
> Some of the table saws i have been looking at can be wired for 220 voltage. Wondered if an extractor would benefit from the same procedure. My ohms law is not just rusty... It has become non-existent. I know enough about electricity to be dangerous most of the time.:lookout:


_
If you already have 220 to the building, larger motors are typically 220 volts. 3-phase isn't typically available to residential here, as it needs to be already on the power poles with the extra wire._



> 220 voltage is referred to as 3 phase??? Two legs of 110 coming in with a ground. 440 or 480 being the same way. A pair of 220 legs and a ground.:s


_
No, 480 volt is 3 phase, 220 is single phase. Yes, 2 legs 110/120v with ground is single phase. 480 3phase has 3 hot legs and the voltage between one of the legs and ground is typically 277volts (unless it's a high-leg system then one leg is higher voltage, but that's another story)_



> I doubt my tiny operation warrants such an extractor in the near future but I wanted to be informed in case the opportunity presented itself.:kn:
> 
> I appreciate the replies no matter the length. There is one thing that puzzles me though...:s The higher voltage and lighter wire thing...? Most of the building codes require heavier wire for 220 appliances. Would that have more to do with amperage than voltage?


_
The appliance wattage/hp would be the same, but with a 220 or 240volt system the amperage is divided between the legs. To get your amperage, you can take watts (or 746 watts = 1hp) and divide by your voltage (either 110 or 220) so dividing by the larger (220) will give you a smaller amperage, and therefore a smaller wire despite the watts or hp of the appliance being the same. Wire size is determined by amperage and distance so less amps = smaller (cheaper) wire. So yes, it's about amperage re: wire size, but a higher voltage = less amperage. The larger wire you've noticed in residential 220 circuits has to due with the amperage and not their voltage. If they were 110v it would be even bigger wire. Hope that make sense._



> In the future when I get my honey house off the ground I will have 220 available if I need it. I just don't know at this point how large of an operation I can maintain. Hobbyist probably... Side liner probably not. 5 hives so far... Thinking 20 to 30 would be a max for me and still work a full time job. Rambling slightly off topic...t::doh:


_If you were running new power to a building, I would run 220 to the panel in the building, as you can run larger motors if needed._

Mark


----------



## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

If I were building a sideliner honey house I would go with 220V single phase with 200 amps



BEE HAPPY Jim


----------



## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Don't forget being able to run a phase convertor if your running 3 phase without the third leg being available.


----------



## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

hex0rz said:


> Don't forget being able to run a phase convertor if your running 3 phase without the third leg being available.


IMO, if one found 3 phase equipment and it was 3hp or less it's cheaper to replace the motor with a single phase motor. 5hp and up, then a phase converter might be a better choice money wise.

I agree with Jim, sideliner get 220 single phase.
Large commercial shop with 3 phase available, get an electrician. They will include power factor in their calcs.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Actually a rotary phase converter is basically just a relatively big three phase motor (a 3 phase panel is helpful too) which can sometimes be bought for scrap prices. Sometimes. And of course you have to understand how to wire it up without killing yourself or burning down your shop. But if you happen to get a deal on some good three phase equipment...

The other caveat is that equipment that is run through a simple phase converter will be a little down on power and energy efficiency.


----------



## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

David LaFerney said:


> Actually a rotary phase converter is basically just a relatively big three phase motor (a 3 phase panel is helpful too) which can sometimes be bought for scrap prices. Sometimes. And of course you have to understand how to wire it up without killing yourself or burning down your shop. But if you happen to get a deal on some good three phase equipment...
> 
> The other caveat is that equipment that is run through a simple phase converter will be a little down on power and energy efficiency.


David It would still need a boost transformer too, right? I ask because most of the 3ph equipment I've seen here is 480 volt for the bigger motors. Small to mid-sized motors often have 208/480 taps and can be ran at either voltage.

BTW, your queen/nuc website was very cool. I hope to use the method in the future . . . when I actually have bees.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

StingerMcStung said:


> David It would still need a boost transformer too, right? I ask because most of the 3ph equipment I've seen here is 480 volt for the bigger motors. Small to mid-sized motors often have 208/480 taps and can be ran at either voltage.
> 
> BTW, your queen/nuc website was very cool. I hope to use the method in the future . . . when I actually have bees.


You shouldn't need a boost transformer to power most shop sized motors. Here is an article on how to build a simple rotary phase converter out of a 3 phase motor.

Thanks - I'm glad you found my queen rearing material useful. Good luck when you get bees.


----------



## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

110-120 volt service is always single phase. 220-240 volt service is usually single phase, but can be 3 phase also. 480 volt is only available in 3 phase, as far as I know. 

If anything in this thread confuses you, money spent for an electrician in the planning stage is *well spent*


----------



## westtnbeekeeper (Oct 26, 2015)

If anything in this thread confuses you, money spent for an electrician in the planning stage is *well spent*[/QUOTE]

 Think I can understand most of it. 

Probably gonna have to hire a pro for the dangerous stuff anyway. 

Its kind of like being able to understand what someone is trying to say in another language but not being able to speak to them. 

Clearly you guys know a lot more about electricity than I do.:kn:


----------



## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

> Think I can understand most of it.
> 
> Probably gonna have to hire a pro for the dangerous stuff anyway.
> <snip>


That's the best idea. I've read 90% of electrical deaths are residential 110 volt. So always wear dry leather gloves.

There is also a good electrical web forum if you google Mike Holt electrical.

And remember: "There are old electricians and bold electricians, but there are no old, bold electricians." quote unknown.


----------



## BBees (Jan 24, 2015)

A variable frequency drive VFD would work well on a honey extractor with a three phase motor if your power source was single phase.The VFD would allow you to speed up or slow down the motor. I use a 240 volt to 480 volt transformer and VFD to power the 3 phase motor on my Bridgeport milling machine.

Explanation of how a VFD works at the link below:


----------

