# honey water content in small cells



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I follow Rüdiger Dietrich on Elgon blog, because I exchange thoughts with him per e-mail.
I found this on the blog yesterday:

http://www.elgon.es/diary/?p=779#comment-490


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've never noticed any difference but then I wasn't measuring it. The honey is just as thick on whatever cell size. Sizes I've used:

4.9mm (small cell)
5.2mm (Pierco)
5.4mm (dura comb)
5.6mm (Kelley wax 7/11)
6.6mm (wax drone foundation)

The drone comb (6.6mm) is the fasted to extract because of the large cells, but the honey isn't noticeably thinner when it's done. Perhaps there is a slight difference that isn't noticeable.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Well maybe finding out about this water content would be an argument for natural comb, don`t you think?



> When trying to understand the results I think it helps being aware that when bee colonies build their own combs without the help of foundation many have observed they build (when they are adapted after a period of perhaps several years) mostly between about 4.7 and 5.1 mm cell size in the brood nest and 5.2-5.5 (approximately) in honey area.


my first colony built 4.9-5.1 in broodnest on natural comb



> When the bees have collected a lot of honey for the winter period, most of the empty cells are small. When spring comes the first brood is reared in small cells. Low moisture honey is closest to brood then. Is that of any importance for the bees? Later in season some brood is reared in slightly larger cells as well. Towards the end of the season the queen lays almost only in small cells again.


I think that is very interesting.
Could be a help with crystallized dark honey as overwintering food, too ( if you leave it them). High moisture honey at the outside.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

It would be logical to assume that smaller cells would dry faster than larger ones. 

Consider two extremes (micro and macro).

Imagine honey in a 5 gallon bucket and that same honey in thousands of tiny honeycomb cells.
Ask yourself which would have more surface area exposed. Having done this sort of math stuff in engineering school I can quickly say that there would be much much more exposed surface area in the smaller cells per volume of honey.
The small cells would be more efficient at drying the honey imo.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

aunt betty said:


> It would be logical to assume that smaller cells would dry faster than larger ones.
> 
> Consider two extremes (micro and macro).
> 
> ...


Aunt Betty are you taking for granted that the cell depth is the same? Unless the depth is different, the evaporating surface would be the same regardless of diameter of individual cells. Perhaps the smaller cells could have infinitessmally greater surface area if you were measuring along their meniscus curve.

Sounds like the argument about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!:lookout:

The whole thread is built upon conjecture upon conjecture! No? Where is Ace? This thread really needs him!


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## Maddy (Jan 20, 2014)

Can I add to the speculation?
Since comb is built outwards from the center, and I believe honey is likewise stored in an outward from the center pattern, would it not seem logical that nectar and honey stores on the outer edges would carry a higher moisture content, from the sheer lack of aging time from the more centrally located honey cells?
~M


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Maddy said:


> Can I add to the speculation?
> Since comb is built outwards from the center, and I believe honey is likewise stored in an outward from the center pattern, would it not seem logical that nectar and honey stores on the outer edges would carry a higher moisture content, from the sheer lack of aging time from the more centrally located honey cells?
> ~M


As I observed, the bees start to store, dry and cap honey from the outside or top, then use this as storage, so it must be the older honey. If they need it they transport it to empty cells in broodnest or feed from it. But that is before winter, in winter the cluster moves to stores and uncap and use them with cluster heat. 

Now if the high moisture honey is on the outside and its crystallized honey the bees will be more able to feed from it, for they need not much water. 
If I would give them sugar bricks late winter I would lay them on top of the cluster for them to have water from cluster-heat condensation.

Frank, even if it`s speculation, why not thinking about things like that? I will buy a refraktometer next year.
I will leave them some honey but I want to be sure they can use it.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Is it factual (or circulated myth) that bees need water in order to consume honey while clustered? I think perhaps they do need free water to dilute honey to a fermentable level when they must produce bee bread and royal jelly for feeding brood.

It would seem to me that this need must first be established definitively. It seems that it has not been definitely established that smaller cells do indeed contain higher water content honey when assayed over a period of time. If the assumptions are incorrect we may be throwing together unconnected evidence through confirmation bias.

I agree that is good to examine things to seek understanding of nature. I just think it is very wrong to state as fact, that which is not proven so, and then to build upon that shaky foundation.
It takes discipline to avoid jumping to incorrect conclusions.
_
It appears that the waving of tree limbs causes the wind to blow!_


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

If honeybees can not consume honey when it is sub-freezing because all water is ice then how do they survive the winters where it's sub-zero? 

I think that question answers itself. The answer is: They don't need water to eat honey unless you want to presume that they are melting ice into water. 
Don't know the answer but that's my logic and argument.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

aunt betty, when bees consume and metabolize honey they give off ~ 70% of the intake weight in the form of water vapor. Maybe it condenses as frost on the whiskers of the bees on the outside of the cluster and the others lick it off when the cold bees circulate into the middle of the cluster.:lookout:


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

crofter said:


> aunt betty, when bees consume and metabolize honey they give off ~ 70% of the intake weight in the form of water vapor. Maybe it condenses as frost on the whiskers of the bees on the outside of the cluster and the others lick it off when the cold bees circulate into the middle of the cluster.:lookout:


Good point. I knew that but hadn't thought that they'd harvest and use the moisture. Nothing gets wasted...knew that.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I`m sorry, guys.
I did not realize until now that I`m such a nuisance.
I will refrain from posting and go on reading.
Thanks for being patient with me.
Good luck to you!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

You're not a nuisance, please continue. 
There is always a place for brainstorming and discussing things we think about when working bees. I shows me you are observing things and trying to find an explanation for those observations. Don't be put off by those that have it all figured out!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Nah, SiWolke, don't be put off. Conjecture is good. Expect it to be countered and questioned, just as I hope you will question other peoples conjecture.

One of the famous Greek philosophers said " We argue, not that I shall triumph over you, or you over me, but that by discussion we may arrive at a more perfect truth"


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## capitalbeesupply (Jul 28, 2013)

It is an interesting question or observation....looking at the data in the blog I'm not sure how many measurements were taken but I don't know that it is a "statistically significant" difference. We've been switching our honey supers over to drone sized foundation and have about 1/2 of them switched. I haven't noticed a difference in the moisture contents of the honey from the boxes that are larger drone cell sized versus those that are 5.1mm sized, but I'm curious now......
Rich
Capital Bee Supply


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## xphoney (Nov 7, 2014)

We use small cell, large cell, and drone comb in the supers. Never considered this before. Time to buy a refractometer to test it.

Someone email me next June to remind me why I bought it....

Andrew


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