# Using plywood for boxes



## Mountain Bee (Apr 7, 2012)

I was always a little weary of using plywood to make up my boxes due to the glue that is in it until I ran across D Coates nuc box design where 1/2 inch plywood is used to make them. After making about a dozen or so up and having them in operation now for months without any trouble from them I was thinking about using 3/4 plywood this winter in making up my brood
chambers,supers,and even screen bottom boards. The reason for this would be that a 4x8 3/4 sheet of plywood is about $32.00 now and I could get many more boxes for the money versus using 1x12 or 1x10. I have done some experimenting and I can even cut a clean box joint and the rabbit out for the frame rests with no trouble (that was the one problem that I thought I would have with using plywood). Just wondering if anyone else has been using plywood versus 1x material.


----------



## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

The fact that plywood in house construction makes many people ill is enough for me to eliminate it from beehives. Even if it doesn't actually sicken them, does anyone know if the stuff (formaldehyde and alcohols) can be concentrated in the honey?


----------



## gunter62 (Feb 13, 2011)

I use plywood and like it just fine. Some folks on here hate it and think its a foolish waste of time and money. I really think a decent solid wood box is the best way to go, but well-protected plywood should give several years of good service. Why not make a batch and see how you like it!


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

plywood is fine. The wood on the inside layer of the ply is 1/16" to 1/8" layer, then you get to the first layer of glue. Which is not high in voc's. Mine are 3/4" thick ply. it has a smell of saw dust, not anything volatile.
I made two 5 foot long TBH's with one sheet. (metal roofs)


----------



## Mountain Bee (Apr 7, 2012)

As far as the long term affect on bees I don't know but I do know as far as the longevity of plywood it is far superior over any 1x stock aside from pressure treated. I have left plywood out in the weather for months on end without any effect to it while if you leave a 1x6 out over night it will be cupped by morning.


----------



## bruce todd (May 11, 2010)

I've used marine grade with no problems, but only when I have it left over from a job. A sheet of 3/4 Mahogany is $140.00.


----------



## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

I have plywood hives that are misshaped and hard to keep frames in. Of course they are over 10 years old. Now they will be kindling.
I just picked up about a hundred suppers and frames free. So I will replace all the plywood boxes.


----------



## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Make a few and see how you like them. 

Be forewarned that the problems with plywood have nothing to do with distortion, per se, unlike pine or other solid wood, but plywood exposed to the elements and widely varying humidity and temperature almost always de-laminates. This means you will have boxes made of several unattached 1/8" or thinner wooden plys, all of which will warp considerably as the humidity changes.

Plywood is fairly stable so long as it's exposed to the same humidity on both sides, but moisture content changes affect the wood in the plys exactly the same way it does solid wood. Eventually either the glue bond fails or the wood shears along the glue, and the plys separate. Exterior grade plywood properly painted lasts a long time attached to walls, but no so long in bee boxes.

Marine plywood made with urea-formaldehyde or similar totally waterproof glue is much more stable, but very expensive. Low cost CDX grade isn't always suitable for bee boxes due to the number of voids and "patches" allowed by the grade --it's not supposed to be continuously exposed to the elements.

Peter


----------



## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I have made some brood boxes and they have held up ok, not great just ok. But, the bottom boards I made up with ply wood did not hold up very well at all. The delaminated pretty quick. YMMV


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

It is short term savings and they are heavy. Don't half step. It would be better to go all mediums where lumber is cheaper. I am fine with whatever you do, I wouldn't do it. Saving money by cutting corners almost always cost money it seems.


----------



## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

Great points and counter points. I have been looking at building some NUCs and found the plans on this site for 4 from 1 sheet of plywood, I also purchased Fat Bee Man's plans that I would probably use pine for. My issue is not having a table saw the rabbit cuts are tougher with a 7.25" saw, but I am thinking about a jig that will let me do that for deeps, med. super, and feeder (I do not have a router either). Guess I will sit on the fence a little longer and watch the neighbors.


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

building nucs and bee boxes are two different things! If you are just using them seasonally, nucs out of plywood are great and cheap. If you are going to winter nucs, divide a deep hive body, screen the bottom and you can jump start them over a strong hive.


----------



## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

Vance G said:


> building nucs and bee boxes are two different things! If you are just using them seasonally, nucs out of plywood are great and cheap. If you are going to winter nucs, divide a deep hive body, screen the bottom and you can jump start them over a strong hive.


Had not thought of that. Do you use something like a screened inner cover to keep the upper & lower colonies isolated and a hard separator for the two NUCs above, like Masonite. Although I think I recently saw something that fit the bill, plastic and adjusts in multiple directions.
Thanks for the input.


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I was wondering about using plywood, and then boiling the super/hive body/NUC in wax and propolis. That should nullify all the down sides of plywood, right?


----------



## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

I made four Coates nucs using a sheet of CD plywood from Home Depot and was disappointed with the results. After only 2 months the tops started to delaminate and warp then the sides began to come apart. The plans are great and the nucs are easy to assemble, the only problem I had was the cheap plywood coming apart. Next year I'm going to give it another try using a better grade of plywood.


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Never used plywood for deeps or supers but I've used plywood for Nucs for going on 5 years. They are painted and exposed to the environment 24/365. The ones with fixed bottoms are rock solid. The ones without bottoms that I put on top of the nucs when they need more space occasionally show some warp on the long sides but nothing to write home about. I've got 18 of the fixed bottom ones and 18 of the bottomless ones. Knock on wood I've had no delamination though it's something I've expected. For what I've got in them I'll keep using that material for that application.


----------



## Jeanette (Jul 7, 2012)

I personally prefer using any products that exclude formaldehyde glues as I have a friend who is sensitive to this and other VOC (volatile organic compound) gasses, however there is scientific research to counter my personal preferences.

Research from June 1990 into plywood and particleboard indicated that the highest rate of the formaldehyde gas emissions took place in the first 6 weeks after production (25% of total emissions). After a year, half of all emissions had been released and after two years the emissions were negligible. http://www.ecobind.com/research/Longterm_Particleboard_Emission_Decay_Study.pdf 

Since then, a lot more research into formaldehyde has been done and safety standards now exist for formaldehyde concentration levels permitted in wood products. In addition, some suppliers promote their products as being low-VOC or VOC-free materials. Considering all this, it seems reasonable that there is little danger inherent in plywood anymore. To avoid even the small risk that exists, there are still options that will allow you to use plywood:
- you could choose to age your newly purchased plywood for a few months (allowing any gasses to escape naturally),
- you could choose to buy a low-VOC or VOC-free plywood, or
- you could paint the plywood to seal the timber (not allowing any gas emissions).

Once the gas is exposed to sunlit air, it has a half life of less than an hour. http://www.epa.gov/teach/chem_summ/Formaldehyde_summary.pdf 

As for honey contamination, it is useful to remember two things: (1) that formaldehyde has a half-life of between 2 and 20 days in water http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/airquality/publications/sok/formaldehyde.html and (2) formaldehyde occurs naturally in food in low levels http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0014/123062/AQG2ndEd_5_8Formaldehyde.pdf.

I dislike the data that shows that low concentrations of formaldehyde is okay (it is even used in mouthwash and makeup). However I felt that, despite my personal preference, I should present some opposing data to give a balanced view.


----------



## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

Jeanette,
Outstanding input! This helps me a lot in my + & - buy decisions. Cost and longevity are big factors, but I certainly did not want to hurt my girls or contaminate my honey. Finding marine grade plywood has its own set of challenges, then $50+ for a sheet vs. dimensional lumber is a big cost decision. So I guess for me it will come down to what is available in my local hardware store and my intended use. I will probably build both, plywood and dimensional lumber, but your data helped me in my decision process .
Thank you.:thumbsup:


----------



## sheepdog (May 3, 2011)

Aren't most hive tops, covers and bottoms of most hives made of plywood?


----------



## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Well, I do use plywood for covers and bottoms, but those are not exposed, particularly the covers. Solid wood sides with plywood inset with none of the plywood every exposed to the outside. This is different than plywood hive boxes where one side is completely exposed and some ends are as well. Water does bad things to plywood, and a plywood box will eventually de-laminate from differential expansion/contraction of the plies when allowed to get watersoaked. Painting will prevent a large amount of the problem, but paint eventually fails if not renewed regularly.

You can get waterproof plywood, but in most cases that is more expensive than solid #2 pine.

Peter


----------



## sheepdog (May 3, 2011)

I'm just saying that all this talk about plywood chemicals in hive bodies (if any) are most likely there anyway from tops, bottoms and covers.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I have plywood hive bodies that are 5 years old now - plain old off the lowes shelf 3/4 bcx and only a couple of them have any delamination at all. Those are just in small spots that I suspect are caused by a manufacturing flaw at that spot and not a general failure. If I was on the ball I would glue and clamp those, and touch up the paint and they would be like new.

Plywood that generally delaminates in outside use was the wrong kind of plywood to begin with. Good Exterior grade plywood holds up pretty well as long as it isn't just soaked with water.

Maybe when is is new plywood might outgas a little bit, but once they are aired out, propolized and well used I bet it would take a sophisticated lab to detect anything that doesn't also come out of 1X boxes. Bees thrive in all kinds of cavities - I bet that other problems such as mite loads, malnutrition, and bad bee keeping are much bigger factors in their health than what the boxes are made out of.

Here's the thing - if you NEED a bunch of new supers, and using plywood, or scrap wood, makes it work for your budget then go for it. It will be better than not having the equipment you need to go forward.


----------



## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

For the delamination I paint all edges(where the board was cut) with titebond II and then of course paint everything else with my opps paint. I also quickly came up with a telescoping design for the DCoates boxes that I build as opposed to the migratory that tends to warp with the plywood. Adding the glue to the box is time consuming and adds a bit to the cost, but if it makes the boxes last a bunch longer I feel like it's worth it. I do the same thing with all regular boxes that I build, I paint the exposed end grain with glue and then normal paint.


----------



## sheepdog (May 3, 2011)

I just finished two nucs made of plywood. One Deep and one medium. I was thinking about building a three inch extension for the medium. Then I could use it for a deep if need be. I have a little left over. Anyone ever do this?


----------



## my2cents (Jul 9, 2015)

There are some newer plywood's out that seem to hold up extremely well. Mid South Lumber has a plywood for forms in concrete. Dadant is using them to make top boards from. After discussing this with the company, they claim with a layer of paint, they will hold up indefinitely when exposed to moisture.


----------



## Sky (Jul 7, 2015)

David LaFerney said:


> ......
> Here's the thing - if you NEED a bunch of new supers, and using plywood, or scrap wood, makes it work for your budget then go for it. *It will be better than not having the equipment you need to go forward.*


:thumbsup:


----------



## Pete O (Jul 13, 2013)

In the long run, you will have to go over to solid wood. Plywood is more of a temporary, cheaper solution.


----------



## my2cents (Jul 9, 2015)

This new plywood is holding up extremely well in the Florida weather. 3 years and counting. It sits in the sun and rain continuously, has been moved on some hives from South Florida Pepper fields to Ohio and back. None have warped or delaminated in 3 years. Just saying.
My2Cents


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

This is an old thread, but to add in...
I made up some Coates nucs and supers for them out of 15/32" plywood. Titebond III, 1.25" staples... coated all edges with Titebond 3, then two layers of primers and 2-3 layers of quality high gloss latex paint. I really don't seem them as being temporary. I have an unprotected piece of plywood laying out in my yard and it's been like that for ages (previous owner used it for something). Short of placing them directly on the ground. If you prime/paint them well and don't beat the snot out of them, I could seem them lasting for several seasons. Problem is they may be more likely to warp than other boxes and easier to damage with the hive tool.

my2cents, are you talking about Advantech or similar? Or just run-of-the-mill plywood?


----------



## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

When you consider that Dadant sells a commercial grade 10 frame deep body for $16.00, there isn't much to be saved any way you cut it. Plus, I'm not sure building hives with a skilsaw is a good idea. It's not a piano, but the pieces have to have a nice fit for a number of reasons.
Consider this: Dadant and other comercial hive makers spend a lot of time thinking of ways to improve and save costs. Why don't they make plywood bodies?


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

gnor said:


> When you consider that Dadant sells a commercial grade 10 frame deep body for $16.00, there isn't much to be saved any way you cut it. Plus, I'm not sure building hives with a skilsaw is a good idea. It's not a piano, but the pieces have to have a nice fit for a number of reasons.
> Consider this: Dadant and other comercial hive makers spend a lot of time thinking of ways to improve and save costs. Why don't they make plywood bodies?


I agree there, from a nuc stand point I can build about 10 nucs for the cost of a single nuc from major suppliers using plywood. I'm not sure if a 10-frame deep out of plywood would be a good application.

Budget grades from Mann Lake are something around $12-14/each and free shipping. If you got free plywood from somewhere I could see trying to make use of it, however... tops and bottoms would be better applications. I cranked out the numbers and I can make a telecover for about $5 in supplies and a little bit of time. So I think that will be my winter project. Making a bunch of those.


----------



## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

sheepdog said:


> I just finished two nucs made of plywood. One Deep and one medium. I was thinking about building a three inch extension for the medium. Then I could use it for a deep if need be. I have a little left over. Anyone ever do this?


Yeah, that's a good idea. I have 4 medium "bottomless" boxes that I made, then changed my mind and decided to use only deep frames. I will be building 3 inch frames to allow stacking the mediums on top to create a "deep" box. When the 3 inch frames are not used for that purpose they can be used to make quilt boxes for wintertime by staping on a floor of muslin cloth.


----------



## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

I do use plywood for the tops and inner covers too (unpainted). For the boxes, I think I can get a lot of years out of them if I follow Brother Adam's method, which is to clean, sterilize, and repaint every 4 years. For me, saving a buck or 2 on material to start doesn't make a lot of difference. I pay a hefty price for D+ White Pine, but by the time I'm done, there are few scraps left, so I get my money's worth.


----------



## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

> I will be building 3 inch frames to allow stacking the mediums on top to create a "deep" box.


Hi Phillip -
Watch your depth, here, because you want your medium + filler to come out to exactly 9-1/2" to maintain the proper bee space under your frames.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

9-5/8" is the proper depth of a deep box.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Barry








?


----------



## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Barry said:


> 9-5/8" is the proper depth of a deep box.


Dadant deep frames are 9-1/8". A 9-1/2" body gives exactly 3/8" bee space between the top and bottom bar.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

OK, what I meant to say was, the standard size for a deep today is 9-5/8". I just measured hive bodies from 7 different manufacturers and 9-5/8" is by far the vast majority of them. Only one manufacturer consistently had boxes as small as 9-1/2", all the others ranged from 9-9/16" to 9-11/16".

In a perfect world, all frames and all boxes would be made the same dimension so everything would be interchangeable, maintaining the same bee space. But it doesn't work that way. Proper bee space is not one universally agreed upon dimension. It's a range anywhere from 1/4" to 1/2", with 5/16" to 7/16" being the most common. As long as burr comb is not constructed in those gaps and bees can still move about, it's a proper bee space.

In my frame review, I measured assembled frame heights and many are 9-3/16". Dadant's frames are 9-3/16" assembled. Philip's frame size may not be 9-1/8".


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I measured my boxes from Mann Lake (listed as 9 5/8") and I got right at 9 1/2"... so that's what I cut my supers for my Coates nucs at... obviously there is going to be some variance. The Kelley boxes I bought are a touch wider than my ML boxes, so when they're mated there's a little lip which I'm not terribly fond of, but I only have a few of those so it's not a big deal. I can't see myself going with anyone other than ML at this point from a price/uniformity stand point now.

Thanks for the clarification, Barry.


----------



## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I use whatever I find in dumpsters when possible. 3/4" plywood is great for boxes. 1/2" is fine for ttcs and bait hives. I clad the ttcs with aluminum flashing. Screen bottom boards and screened inner covers are always made with lumber because there always a lot of 1"X4" boards in the dumpsters that can be ripped easily for little stock.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

jwcarlson said:


> I measured my boxes from Mann Lake (listed as 9 5/8") and I got right at 9 1/2"...


Now you see the frustration in woodenware! I just grabbed a short and long box side from the pile I just ordered from Mann Lake. These are both commercial grade. Used my little PowerShot Canon.









The rabbeted 16-1/4" board measures 9-23/64".









The 19-7/8" side board measures 9-19/32".









When I line them up so the top edge is even with each other . . .









the bottom is nearly an 1/8" off and the pins get progressively out of sync.










It's interesting that there is only one manufacturer that I've measured where all their box parts are constantly within 1/32" with the occasional 1/16" difference. So when we speak of standard sizes today for manufactured wooden hive parts, it's all relative.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

As long as they make the functional box and were the cheapest ones available, I'm happy with them.  Extra ventilation.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

If we could see a video of you putting a box together like the one I posted above, it wouldn't be all  and !



> so when they're mated there's a little lip which I'm not terribly fond of


My educated guess is that this all has more to do with the wood moisture content and expansion and contraction than it has to do with milling.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm 95% positive it's because the boxes on the short end are about 1/8" wider or so. Honestly it's about two or three of each type (deeps and mediums) in the mix so it's not a big deal. But I noticed it again the other day, and it was a Kelley box (they have metal frame rest covers). 
If all of the notches don't line up, that's trouble. I buy the budgets from Mann Lake and in my somewhat limited arsenal of somewhere around 60-80 boxes (mix of deeps and mediums) I have yet to have one that needed to be "stretched" like yours appears to need.

Care to share who made the box pictured?


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

In post #41



> I just grabbed a short and long box side from the pile I just ordered from Mann Lake. These are both commercial grade.


----------



## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

sheepdog said:


> I just finished two nucs made of plywood. One Deep and one medium. I was thinking about building a three inch extension for the medium. Then I could use it for a deep if need be. I have a little left over. Anyone ever do this?


I do that all the time, but I use 1" X 4" cut down to 3". I don't really like small pieces of plywood and 1" X 4" is the most plentiful dumpster lumber there is. They also make a good shim for feeding sugar bricks and fume boards.


----------



## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Barry said:


> Now you see the frustration in woodenware! I just grabbed a short and long box side from the pile I just ordered from Mann Lake. These are both commercial grade. Used my little PowerShot Canon.
> 
> 
> 
> It's interesting that there is only one manufacturer that I've measured where all their box parts are constantly within 1/32" with the occasional 1/16" difference. So when we speak of standard sizes today for manufactured wooden hive parts, it's all relative.


Mann lake generally has good stuff, but the commercial grade boxes are pretty crummy. I usually make my own stuff, but if I order I get the select and it is always great.


----------



## Sebashtion H. (Jun 23, 2015)

Sorry didn't post right


----------



## Sebashtion H. (Jun 23, 2015)

my2cents said:


> This new plywood is holding up extremely well in the Florida weather. 3 years and counting. It sits in the sun and rain continuously, has been moved on some hives from South Florida Pepper fields to Ohio and back. None have warped or delaminated in 3 years. Just saying.
> My2Cents


Which plywood are you using?


----------



## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

since almost all of my materials come from construction dumpsters, I frequently use plywood. Yesterday I saw a 2 year old deep that had separated some. I just pumped the separation full of Titebond III and pulled it together with a c-clamp. I'll see how it worked out today.


----------

