# Almonds just around the corner



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

the final push is here to get the bees in shape, hope all your bees are doing fine, putting on our LAST round of pollen sub starting today. GOOD LUCK to all that go to the grove.


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

Mine were looking good last week, at least those that I could get to with all the rain.

Have heard rumors of another shortage of bees looming: true,/false/just rumors?


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

Checked on them last week and they looked good. Now they are surrounded by a lake because all the rain... Hoping to check on them this week.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Gregg said:


> true,/false/just rumors?


Gregg, every thing we here right now is rumors, it's a about a month early, BUT, by the first week of feb, we all will have a better take on what's to come.Anybody that forecast's now is just shooting blind.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

I talked to a grower that was looking for bees. 

He recently recieved a call from a beekeeper that was going to supply bees for pollination. This beekeeper stated he lost 70% of his hives in Oregon when all the rain and cold went through. 

That 70% lost the beekeeper $300,000.00. Doing the math at $150 per colony that is a loss of 2,000 hives.

PPB or something else?

As of last week my bees were reported to be looking great. After going through the cold here in WI, some snow, delays by the truck driver , and the last load finally leaving WI around Dec.10th. I was happy to hear there is only 10 deadouts(which were probally robbed out after the last feeding but before the cold). I hadn't opened them since the end of the 3rd week in Oct.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I have heard and read so many times that cold doesn't hurt bees but moisture does. I live in the high desert and had a drop to 6 degrees F a few weeks ago and as soon as the weather warmed to 50 the bees started to dump large piles of dead bees in front of my landing boards. That is a heck of a way to find out that all those people were wrong. Now I have about 200 colonies and another drop to single digits coming my way. Colonies are light, bees are freezing, and the bank account is low.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Cold will kill your bees if they don't have stores. Get something on them now before the temp drops if they are light.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

We had a rapid drop in temperature followed by a warm spell. A commercial BK came to my house and looked at the dead bees in front of my hives and said they were killed by cold wind we had. I would be hesitant to believe him but he has 7000 colonies and has been doing this for some time now and the cold snap lasted about three days followed by warm weather. I didn't have any dead bees in front of my hives until it got to about 45F, then 50F, and then 55F with the bee pile getting larger each day. It coincided with the cold so perfectly that it is hard to explain away. Colonies that are light and colonies that are back breaking heavy, alike, have a dead pile of bees. I am rethinking the idea that cold does not kill bees.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Regardless of stores, small clusters will have trouble maintaining survival temps during cold weather. Weakend (parasitized) bees will have trouble surviving. Varroa infestations can cause both. It's less about the cold and more about the underlying condition of the colony. Healthy, vigorous colonies with large clusters and sufficient stores will survive a ‘reasonable’ winter. I don’t know how those folks in the upper states and Canada do it.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

beemandan said:


> I don’t know how those folks in the upper states and Canada do it.


You answered your question Dan...

"Healthy, vigorous colonies with large clusters and sufficient stores will survive a ‘reasonable’ winter".

Our reasonable and your reasonable may be different, but the bees know how.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

I would certainly not want to come across as irresponsibly insensitive in regards to bee losses, but.......
I'm calling B.S. on the freezing bees in Oregon.
Oregon beekeepers are reporting that they are pleased overall with the condition of their bees.
The west side enjoyed an above average flow that went on seemingly forever, leaving hives with good stores and healthy bees.
We have been blessed with VERY MILD weather and regular fly days for them to do cleansing flights. Perfect!
East side required additional feeding, as the weather was MILD extending into fall.
Aside from all of that, take some time to talk with beekeepers from Minnesota or the Dakota's. They have-20 all the way to -60F in some years. Ask them about "freezing bees".

I have heard that crying jag aboiut bees freezing before. In fact that is how I landed my almond account, years ago. The previous beekeeper's bees "froze".

My attitude is that the buck stops here. When I have failures of any kind in my operation, it is my fault. No mystery diseases, or frozen bees.
We need to take responsibility for our actions and the bees in our care.

Bees are not freezing in Oregon. :lpf:


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

My bees were doing very well with some low on food some with lots of honey and everywhere between. A 6F degree wind about 50 miles per hour blew through the apiary. The next day we were at 8F then the teens and then up to 50F within a few days. Just before the cold wind we had no dead bees in front of the hive. During the cold snap no dead bees. When the weather warmed the hive started cleaning out piles of bees. The only thing I have heard of that looks like this is a pesticide kill. I don't think anyone was spraying during 6F days with snow all about. If every colony (about 200) in the apiary had a pile of dead bees being dumped just days after the chill, then what would best explain the observation?


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

HVH said:


> We had a rapid drop in temperature followed by a warm spell. A commercial BK came to my house and looked at the dead bees in front of my hives and said they were killed by cold wind we had. I would be hesitant to believe him but he has 7000 colonies and has been doing this for some time now and the cold snap lasted about three days followed by warm weather. I didn't have any dead bees in front of my hives until it got to about 45F, then 50F, and then 55F with the bee pile getting larger each day. It coincided with the cold so perfectly that it is hard to explain away. Colonies that are light and colonies that are back breaking heavy, alike, have a dead pile of bees. I am rethinking the idea that cold does not kill bees.


I don't think the dead bees are a result of the cold. When the bees go into winter, there a diversity of aged bees amongst them. the older bees take to the outer cluster. there is always bees dying through the winter but during cold spills there no movement with in the hive, they form a tighter cluster. when the temps increase, the cluster moves around a bit and if warm enough they'll start hauling out their dead sisters that died or were dead. If it was the cold that killed the bees, why aren't they all dead? you know what i'm saying? The old saying goes -"Bees don't freeze to death, they starve to death" and in that case, the whole hive is usually doomed.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

What you are stating is exactly what I have read and heard over the years but I am having a difficult time explaining the recent observations. Piles of dead bees in front of every hive exactly timed to coincide with a chill followed by warm weather. An old timer in our area said he has seen this before when the weather started warm followed by a rapid drop in temperature. He said the bees need some time to form a tight cluster and a rapid drop can catch them off guard. Hey - I don't know - but the bees dies at the time of the freezing winds. This is correlation and not necessarily causation but I will be keeping a closer eye on this phenomena in the future.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

HVH

Reread Chillwill post again. During warm weather the old foragers and dieing bees fly away from the hive to die. During a cold spell they die in the hive and as temps warm up the house cleaning bees haul them out of the hive. This is a common occurrence in colder climates and is magnified after a long cold winter.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I'm not trying to be obstinate but that doesn't explain the death of thousands of bees in about three days. A small pile of bees, probably representing on average about 1/2 pound or about 6 thousand bees, were found in front of each hive after about three days of cold weather.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

IMO

Moisture being created inside the hive or entering from the outside. When the weather warmed again the frozen moisture(frost) from the inner cover melted and killed the bees on the outside of the cluster. 

What I mentioned that happened in Oregon. Now I am just speculating but I'm willing to bet somehow that rain got inside the hives(pails blew off or poor lids) and the cold made it worse. Or they were good as dead already.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_I'm not trying to be obstinate but that doesn't explain the death of thousands of bees in about three days._

How do you know the bees died in those 3 days? How do you know they did not die beforehand, and are just now being cleaned out in the warm 50 degree weather?

_A small pile of bees, probably representing on average about 1/2 pound or about 6 thousand bees, were found in front of each hive after about three days of cold weather. _

How warm was it before the 3 day cold spell? Were the bees trying to brood up? If they are trying to brood up, the cluster will try to keep the brood covered instead of the cluster contracting - and it's not uncommon to lose bees this way in the spring.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I live in the high desert with low moisture and the hives had very little condensation on their lids (I checked) and no water anywhere near the cluster. I had one lid blow off (a pleasant surprise) and the bees dragged out of the hive were dry. If it weren't for these observations I would look for moisture as a culprit, but there just wasn't any evidence to support it. If it were the middle of summer I would have thought about pesticides. If any explanation is offered that fits the observations I am all ears.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

How much brood do you have? Are you seeing chilled brood being drug out also? (Or chilled brood dead in frames but not yet removed?)


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I should have looked when it was 50F. No chilled brood were removed but this time of year the brood area is small in these parts. If the old timer was correct and the bees were caught off guard by a very sudden drop in temperature then the outside of the cluster got hit with the middle surviving - maybe protecting any brood. All speculation on my part.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

In post #8, HVH indicated that a commercial beek looked at his hives and said it was cold and wind that killed the bees. As a beek in similar high desert region with very changeable weather but not quite as cold lows, I would observe dead bees at the door during warming trends. Less experienced beeks would be quite alarmed but, I found this loss incidental for my region if the hives were healthy.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

That just means there are two crazy people now instead of one


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Africanized genetics-inability to cluster and stay warm?

How many days to the big rush? 40 or so?


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## borada bee doc (Feb 6, 2010)

Here are a few thoughts for what they are worth regarding piles of dead bees after 3 days of cold. It should not be starvation if the hives have adequate stores. 

1)This may be attrition of aging fall workers in hives which went into winter without adequate fall feeding(ie. low vitelloginen levels produce very mortal bees), but the numbers seem excessive. 

2)It may be premature death of parasitized workers from hives with high varroa counts. Did you have ongoing nectar flows and the August varroa treatments lost effect in October? These hives may have had large numbers dying prior to the cold unobserved if they were carried from the hive to be deposited at a distance. (I recall a commercial beek stating that bees were dying in mid-flight many feet from the holding yard and falling in his pickup bed). The undertakers paused their work with the cold but resumed shortly after. 

3)You may be seeing the onset of a paralysis virus in which case there will be a continuation of bees being deposited in quantities until it burns out or the hive dwindles. In hairless black syndrome, which often occurs following a period of flightless confinement, there are small numbers of shiny-appearing bees due to hive mates chewing on them. A large proportion the of dead bees may be fuzzy appearing young bees as opposed to less hairy older workers. Also with the paralysis viruses, there may be ongoing activity at the entrance with guards evicting sick but living bees. This activity will be seen at temperatures where other hives are not flying. 

4)Along a similar thought, your bees may be dying from the cold due to "sick bee's" disoriented behavior preventing the normal recirculating pattern of the cluster (theory). 

5)Also, bees with nosema or tracheal mites may not be able to generate heat properly with their flight muscles causing the outer cluster to chill. 

6)Another possibility is nosema infected bees engaging in more risky food searching behavior (those division feeders filled with drowned bees) and roaming the perimeters of the hive until they hunker down, chilled, and perish (theory). 

If you are in Oregon you might consider sending a sample of bees to Dr. Sagili at OSU ([email protected]) and have them tested for tracheal mites and nosema. On the brighter side, if you have monster hives, there will be increased dead bees, per the first theory, but they should do great. 
Best of luck, Andrew


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks for the thoughtful response but I should add that most of the colonies jumped back into action after the freeze. Over half of the hives are very strong, no more dead bees and during warm days they are very active without droves of dead bees being carried off. So my observations don't really follow a dietary problem nor a pest problem. Most of the colonies seem really healthy at this point with about 20% being short on honey (bad apiary locations). Other than that the bees seemed to die only during the freeze. We have another single digit night coming this week but it has been preceded by cold. I'm not sure what to expect. I stuffed paper towels in the entrance to reduce wind exposure and hope they will be OK.


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## Earthboy (May 16, 2007)

Greetings,

Normally I would not venture out to talk about an issue; however, this one is an exception. In this instance, the gentle person from Nevada is correct. Under normal circumstance, however, I would agree with the rest of the observations made by the so-called mainstream beekeepers.

On rare and exceptional cases, the near nonstop gale force wind, the kind that triggered wildfires and burned downed hundreds of houses in Midwest City and surrounding areas in Oklahoma a few years back--will disable colonies from maintaining the optimum temperature inside the hive during winter, usually around March here in Oklahoma, especially if you run on SBB, creating a "Whistling Effect" for lack of better word.

The longer the sustained gale, the worse the outcome, as it "Whistles" through the bottom of the open screen nonstop, chilling bees. This "Whistling Effect" seems to kill the strongest of all colonies, especially those that are getting ready for "Early Peak" in March. (Hence, questioning the very notion "What is the best genetic?") Oddly, the phenomenon does not affect the medium to small colonies at all--in my observation.

Imagine you are blowing on an empty bottle to "whistle" : due to the constant air flow atop where your mouth comes in contact with the bottle, the air inside the bottle is also in constant flux, preventing the bees from maintaining the optimum temperature in winter. The dead piles resemble a pesticide kill, indeed, and the dead bees are "fresh" dead, not long dead, still glistening to the light as though they will come back out of being dead if you simply warm them.

That appears to be what happens with SBB under gale force wind.

Thus, unable to regain or maintain the optimum temperature, a massive bee death occurs, usually in huge piles at the center of SBB. Such occurrence is very rare but it does happen, often associated with a sustained gale force wind: the longer the gale, the worse the outcome for the bees. In our case, the sustained gale force wind was clocked at around 70 mph for three long days.

Please feel free to contact me should you want to discuss about this rare phenomenon which only a few old timers like me might have experienced.

Cordially,

Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D.
Dr. Kim's Honey Farm
People's Republic of Oklahoma


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

_ I'm not trying to be obstinate_
The question of varroa parasitism has been brought up a couple of times. You’ve pretty much ignored it. Varroa, in my opinion, are still the number 1 cause of colony collapse. What did you do about varroa this season? Did you perform any sort of counts? Did you treat? 
Parasitized bees are weakened. They will fail under stress. Cold snaps create stress. Weak bees die. Return to warm weather and the problem appears to go away. Another cold snap…and back it comes.
One of my beeyards has about twenty hives. I was unable to treat two in that yard (an embarrassing story…so I’ll just admit PPB). If you walked past all twenty after a cold night, you could immediately identify the two untreated hives. Both may survive. They went into winter with big populations and plenty of stores. But their losses are noticeably higher than their neighbors’.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I understand and appreciate what you are saying and it agrees fairly well with one of Randy Oliver's recent articles. In my case, I treated only 80 of my colonies with Apistan even though mite levels were very low this season (lots of packages). If I had a hundred dead bees in front of the Apistan treated hives and a thousand in front of the untreated hives I would consider your input as right on the money. The observation, however, is that all hives had upwards of a 1/2 pound of bees dead on the ground and varroa was not prevalent. I've had much worse years regarding Varroa but never a cold wind followed by a die off. I am not saying that the cold killed them, I am suggesting, however, that the hypothesis best fits the evidence.
With the next freeze that we get, followed by a few days of warmth, I will check on them again and see if I have another pile.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks for your input Earthboy. We get 70 mph gusts here but not normally at 6F. Either way, I think it is time to move them to California.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Apistan you say? That certainly eliminates mites as the problem......


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

IS anyone out there still getting good results with Apistan besides the sellers?

Maybe with a screen bottom board. It might knock them silly to the point where they drop punch drunk. Clear cleanup on a regular hive is not likely. 

Just because they still sell it doesn't mean it still works.

Using brown strips on hives is kind of like fred flinstone using a dino to move rocks. Old school. Yes you could say it works but................ that dinos got a broken foot. 


Try something different this year.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

HVH said:


> . A commercial BK came to my house and looked at the dead bees in front of my hives and said they were killed by cold wind we had...
> ... Colonies that are light and colonies that are back breaking heavy, alike, have a dead pile of bees. I am rethinking the idea that cold does not kill bees.


Cold does not kill bees but the wind will. Wind breaks around bee yards help alot. Can be hay or straw bales, fence about 5 feet high---too high and the hives do not get the sun-- even trees will help.
We winter outdoors. We are cold compared to you. We see a huge difference in losses in yards that have no wind break compared to yards which have some sort of break.
Bees only keep the area they are in warm. The rest of the hive is close to outside temps. Here that is -20 to -30 celcius for an average winter with temps like that from halloween to mid Feb. Our wraps offer an R8 on the sides and R16 on the top. In reality that is enough to stop the wind.

Just to make my point, two winters ago we had 6 weeks of consecutive -35 to -45 temps and high winds. Survival rate was 96% at first peak. However, the spring continued a unprecented cold and lost an additional 20% because it was too cold to service the hives. They had started brood rearing and it got cold, no stores close and they died


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

"IS anyone out there still getting good results with Apistan besides the sellers?" 


How many beekeepers have any mite data at all beyond casual observations and could even truly answer that question about their mite control? 

Lets face it, if you have no mite roll data you don't have a clue if mites REALLY are a problem or not. From October into winter months every day someone posts on Beesource a bee loss story with no clue about their mite counts and the speculation then starts about CCD, small and natural cell, Bayer, city treated water, freezing wind etc etc etc. 

When you keep bees in the north and the temps stay below 15F for months at end you learn quickly that mite damaged bees don't live long. The first wave of losses after fall happen upnorth in December. Any mite ravaged bees start dying and after a month of cold weather those loser hives are stone cold dead. 

Its all about the mites


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

And one needs to Check mite levels AFTER the treatment also. I have been shocked more than once over the 18 years we have had varroa, when we did not do this. We can no longer assume that the treatments are effective.

Formic and thymol are a lot more variable in their results than apistan was back when it worked well.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Through observation and sampling I found a very effective(common commercial use) mite control that had failed terribly. Some of that same batch I mixed up went to another beekeeper and he had terrible knock down with it.

The product had froze making it ineffective. I know others that have had this happen also but they didn't know why when it worked good on other yards(different can different batch) until I pointed it out. Others may have this happening and don't know why their treatment failed.

It pays to test AFTERWARDS!

TACTIK


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I dont know much about how the bees are behaving in your area HVH right now. Are they brooding, are they broodless,.? But regardless, it definitely isnt easy on the hives to have a sudden cold spell, especially if they happen to be rearing brood. It most definitely would contract the hive. If those hives you had seen losses in were not expecting that drop in weather, they probably were not organized enough to make that tight of cluster quick enough. So they simply would drop off dead. But I wouldnt expect the whole colony to get caught that way. 

I think two things might be discussed here. The colony didnt die off due to cold, but the cold caused alot of casualties. 

Hope they are doing better now!


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