# Commercial folks only. Plastic or Wax?



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Wax, our bees do not seem to like plastic, so neither do we. 

Roland


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Plastic. Cost, labor, time all factor in and the bees don't have a problem drawing it out. Plus it seems to last longer...especially the current production.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

The plastic pf120's from Mann Lake have worked well for me, don't need to put any additional wax on them either...I have some of the hsc plastic frames(not the fully drawn ones) that do need to have extra wax put on, they might work ok for supers as they are all drone comb size cells. I haven't used those enough to say one way or the other on them:lookout:.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Maybe Wisconsin bees are just finicky, ours don't like the plastic either. But we haven't tried them in years, maybe they are much improved. The only ones the bees didn't turn their noses up at were Pierco frames, and then it better be a good flow.
If plastic worked without putting extra wax on it would be one thing, but it seems that by the time you put more wax on, you might as well use wax to begin with.
Alpha, which frames are you using?
Sheri


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

This is the last year that I'll be making wood frames and using wax foundation. The frames and foundation are just too labor intensive to put together. 

Next year, it'll be Pierco one-piece frames, with a healthy layer of added wax.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Shari,

I use Pierco (waxed) and order it directly from them. Nick is a great guy and really on the ball. They do a good job of getting great trucking rates if you are not in a hurry. (like need it tomorrow) Use them for both brood and supers. I use black for brood and white for supers. I do try and mix the new between drawn frames if I can. They pull it out quicker and straight this way. The only times I have any trouble is when it is on the end, but I had the same problem with wood, so now I never put new frames on the end.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I use wood frames with plastic foundation. I buy it assembled ready to go. I have used Pierco in the past but when they go thru the automated uncappers they sound like they ill break, and some do. So now it's wood and plastic. No real troubles getting bees to draw it out.

Jean-Marc


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have over 3,000 of the PF120s now. I don't have to assemble them. I don't have to put foundation in them. They are accepted with no issues. And they are cheap. I paid less than $1 each... they are a bit more fragile than some of the other plastic frames, but that comes with being cheap. Still well worth it, IMO. the PF100s work just as well if you have deeps. 

I have NOT had the same experience of such good acceptance with other plastic frames and combs.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Pierco one piece(wax coated) my bees didn't like. Pierco plastic foundation (wax coated)with wood frame they didn't like either. Dadant yellow colored plasticell(wax coated) with wood frame they drew out wonderfully. I had the same results with all of these over a 3 yr period.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

i have used both and the my bees like the wax better but it is so time consuming to put them together. just wondering here hopefully not hijacking this thread but for those of you who use the wax have you ever tried useing a few support pins instead of wire?


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

My experience with Mann Lake in purchasing PF's is that the shipping is almost as high as the cost of the frames.

When I start pushing $2 per frame v .63 per wood plus foundation/starter strip and assembly it starts pushing me back to Wood


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Swarm_trapper
We put longer staples into the end bars for support, slip the foundation between the staple legs, no need to wire if you handle them carefully the first year. Leave it to John to find a cheap way to skin the cat.  I think it would probably not work for deeps if you extract them but for brood it's fine, or with mediums for supers, if you spin them easy the first year. We do use extra heavy wax, 5 sheets to the pound for deeps, 9 sheets (I think?) to # for mediums. 
Still takes longer than plastic to put together, but no polished foundation to deal with ever. 

JPK, yeah, it is that way for anything. You almost need to be reasonably close to whomever you are getting things from. I say the same thing about that wooden ware fabricator up your way.
Sheri


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

We prefer wooden frames with plastic foundation.We have tons of Pierco and Mann lake 1 piece frames , but for some reason the bees will stick the boxes together tighter with plastic frames.This is a problem when you are breaking boxes apart to put in pollen sub.
We have been buying lots of Dadant pre-assembled and are happy with it. The bees like it just fine, but it takes a strong hive in a good flow to get it drawn right. If conditions are bad (poor flow) this year, put it on next year. You cant do THAT with wax.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

but for some reason the bees will stick the boxes together tighter with plastic frames.

The depth of the frame rest/rabbet on some supers is the reason.
But, when you stay with the wood bound frame the hives can be opened easier.
I read somewhere last month about a company cutting a super to accomodate the plastic frames.
Ernie


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## ga.beeman (Mar 29, 2009)

i use wooden frames with pierco and they draw it really good if you coat the plastic with more wax. I built a wax heater so i can dip the peirco and put it in the wooden frame just before it gets cool. it will snap right in and ready to go. you want to do this before the wax gets cool or the wax will crack. you can also dip one that is already in the frame but you will use more wax that way.


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

I use plastic foundation with wood frames. I also put a extra coat of my wax on it with a paint roller. I timed it and I can build and wax 3 to 1 what it takes me to do wax only frames. If you put your wax on it then they draw it light or heavy flow. But the first year the uncapper can peel the whole thing way from the plastic if you are to tight on the setting.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

the uncapper can peel the whole thing way from the plastic if you are to tight on the setting. 

What kind of uncapper are you using?
Ernie


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## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

Thanks for all the great responses, I am gonna have to try so plastic and see how bees in Maine feel about it.

I see mann lake has the pf120's at 1.05 in quanity, (180 pieces) but it gives me a shipping price of $94.00, 50 cents each shipping seems quite high. Anyone know of a better deal to get some of these to Maine?


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Any commercial beeks going foundationless? maybe that ought to be part of the mix? Just curious as to your success, if so.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have a lot of foundationless, but it's cheaper and faster to buy the PF120s because I just pull them out of the shipping box and put them in the hives. Foundationless is more expensive and I have to assemble them. But that may have gotten easier as Walter T. Kelley is now making the frames so I wouldn't have to cut the top bars...


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Just curious as I've never used foundationless, will these go through an uncapper and extractor?
Sheri


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

I have a cowen silver queen. i love it, It can uncap as fast as I can load. Never hooked up the water supply to the knifes but I may do it this year and see if it makes a difference in the 1st year drawn honey frames.


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## oldenglish (Oct 22, 2008)

brac said:


> Thanks for all the great responses, I am gonna have to try so plastic and see how bees in Maine feel about it.
> 
> I see mann lake has the pf120's at 1.05 in quanity, (180 pieces) but it gives me a shipping price of $94.00, 50 cents each shipping seems quite high. Anyone know of a better deal to get some of these to Maine?



Mann Lake shipping never calculates on line correctly, you are better off calling them for an accurate quote.


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

I dislike plastic and feel its one more source of chemicals from outgassing. Additionally Tom Seeley showed in a paper that bees produce more honey on foundation. 

In the paper if I recall he was concerned but had no definitive proof that the plastic substrate created problems with bee communication as vibration is one of the key variables. 

The small annual cost for me to pay employees to wire or install foundation is simply part of the tradition I wish to carry on. I see no tradition or glory in using plastic. 

The idea that food production can have no traditions and all desicions on bees are economically driven is why modern agriculture has gotten lost in the corporate greed of America. 

But then again I sell all of my honey raw and refuse to process any of it or sell drums to processors who do. 

You got to believe in something folks and I have other important values then the almighty dollar. 

Clearly there is no advantage to plastic foundation for the bees. Its all about the greedy beekeeper from their perspective!


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

for all my 6 and 5/8 supers i use the crimp wire in a grooved frame and just snap it in like plastic it works really well, just have to watch it the first year in the extractor. 

sheri on the deep frames are you using wedge top bars? and where are you getting the heavier wax foundation?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've never had a chain uncapper or any other automated method, but foundationless uncaps fine with an uncapping knife and I suspect it would work fine with an uncapper. The extract fine as long as they aren't brand new wax. But then brand new wax doesn't work well even on foundation as it's too soft.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Swarm_trapper, yes we use wedge tops. We get the foundation special order from Dadant's. Their new frame doesn't fit it too well, at least with hooks. The wires are too long causing it to bow. The topbars need to be cut down a smidgen at the wedge for the foundation to fit well. 
This is only since they redid their frames. Hopefully they will rework their waxed foundation system. 
Does anyone know if the regular wax from Dadants is poor fitting also or is it just the extra heavy?
Sheri

Thanks Michael I suspected as much. Yes, the new foundation is very fragile and needs to be handled very carefully the first year. We don't put them through the uncapper, we uncap by hand, then manually turn up the extractor so it gets most of the honey out before it starts spinning very fast. I wouldn't think foundationless would be that much different.
Sheri


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Clearly there is no advantage to plastic foundation for the bees. Its all about the greedy beekeeper from their perspective! 


HA ! Thats a laugh,

I have lifted some pretty heavy boxes of honey down from towering hives using mostly plastic foundation for my foundation.
but thats just my operation.

As for the question posted,
I dont use wax foundation anymore, mainly because of the time, but also it isnt as easy to draw foundation as it is with plastic.
you will have to especially careful when you put in wax foundation. If not done properly it will warp, chewed, bur combed, etc.

I like plastic because it will travel well undrawn, you can put it in anytime without fear of damage, and you can scrape down the imperfect comb easily

My workers also prefer all plastic for the extractor. We have alot of wood/plastic, and my guys curse me every time I make more (because of cost). The plastic frames will bend a bit if they need to. Wood just snapps


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## 67630 (Jul 17, 2008)

swarm_trapper said:


> i have used both and the my bees like the wax better but it is so time consuming to put them together. just wondering here hopefully not hijacking this thread but for those of you who use the wax have you ever tried useing a few support pins instead of wire?


I have used the support pins and the bees seem to make the comb everywhere except where the pin is leaving it sticking out doing nothing.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

OK, I admit, I'm not commercial. Here is my and my bees opinion of plastic.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I prefer plastic with an added coat of wax. I got the best results using PermaDent (out of South Dakota) and Mann Lake Rite Cell.

As for wax foundation and wood frames, I find nothing more relaxing than spending a Sunday afternoon watching football on the TV in my heated shop as I assemble and wire frames. I picked up a trick from the Paris TX Dadant branch. One of those guys showed me a frame with a groove top bar and a groove bottom bar, wired the frame, then stuck in a sheet of wired wax foundation--no hooks. After embedding the wire, it was amazingly strong. 

This year I'm going to more foundationless for the brood box. Plastic, mostly, for extracting supers.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Grant;498532 a frame with a groove top bar and a groove bottom bar said:


> That's been my method for over 30 years.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I used to feel the same way about plastic.But its been improved tremendously over the years.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/loggermike/000_0236.jpg


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

loggermike said:


> I used to feel the same way about plastic.But its been improved tremendously over the years.


Mike, I see alot of white comb, are you sure your from Calif.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

There sure hasn't been much of that lately in this part of Ca. lol
But we KNOW this is gonna be a great year!


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

The last time I had to put frames to together and wire them was back in 1982. After the mites came about, 4 big comm. guy sold out and I've been down sizeing ever since. I think with the right honey flow the bees will drawn almost anything. Ofcourse I have a big mix of each, thats what happien when you buy big operations out. Try and find foundation for jombo frames.:doh: 
We always had the assembly line going. One guy would put the frames together, one would wire, one would wax and then one would embed. We could do about 150 boxes day. It was fun as kids to see if you could keep up with the next guy. Those where the days.


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

Ian said:


> >>Clearly there is no advantage to plastic foundation for the bees. Its all about the greedy beekeeper from their perspective!
> 
> 
> HA ! Thats a laugh,
> ...



I think you missed my point. How many posts indicate an issue at times wth bees drawing out plastic? Are you claiming that plastic draws out easier then foundation? IF you are I think you're the only one here with the miraculous claim. 

Look the advantage is durability and cost for the beekeeper. I will maintain there is no advantage to the bees - none what so ever.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

I switched to wooden frames with plastic foundation about 10 yars ago. The modern wax coated plastic foundation is the greatest innovation in beekeeping in the last 35 years imho. It will never have to be replaced.

It probably has no advantage for the bees, but in my experience, there is no disadvantage for them either.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

T Try and find foundation for jombo frames.:doh: .[/QUOTE said:


> Dadant sells 10 5/8" for the 30 years I've been buying it. Just got 25lbs. this week.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

loggermike said:


> I used to feel the same way about plastic.But its been improved tremendously over the years.
> http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/loggermik/000_0236.jpg


Which one are you recommending?


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

Wood with plastic inserts!!!!!!
The only way to keep bees.
Saw some frames this year & they were dated that my dad put together some 15 years ago.
I am sure they are extracted every year since dad assembled them for us.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

We've been using permadent in wood frames for 12 years. The bees have no problem drawing it out. It's just a matter of nowing when to put them on. Don't forget whats required for bees for drawing out any kind of foundation, which is large population, nectar flow, and being queen right.
We've had supers of all plastic foundation drawn with capped honey on the side frames within a week during the blackberry/clover flow, we utilized that flow to our advange just more for drawing the comb then for honey production even though we did get both. 
I've seen with the beeswax foundation where the bees will literaly chew it up and drag it out if given a poor times where as they can't do that with plastic nor can the plastic frames 'blow out' in radial extractors when they are newly drawn which happens sometimes with BF.
these are the pro I can think of with the plastic foundation...
-won't blow out in the extractor.
-mice can't chew through them.
-bees will draw them out just the same as bf.
-easier to deal with bridge comb should they build it.
-easier to assemble to frame (no wiring or embedding).
-better uniformity in cells (less drone comb)
-won't shatter when cold
-should the wood frame break, a new wood frame can be built around it. even if it's solid with honey.

I certianly believe that PF is a whole lot versatile them the BF.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Od- those are Pierco plastic frames pictured. I have gone over completely to wooden frames with Dadant plastic foundation as the best combination for us. But , like everyone else, we have lots of different combinations of frames and foundation accumulated over the years.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Chillwill - great list as to the benefits of PF. Blow outs can be a real problem with canola honey, especially if the weather turns cools and the honey begins to crystallize. During last year's cool summer I pulled honey 4 times from most of my hives between the end of July and middle of September and still had some crystallization. No blow outs for PF but had to be careful with the BF. The only downside I see in the PF is the built up wax can rip off easier in the uncapper.

Ian - The flex in the all plastic frames is exactly why I don't like them. Funny how a characteristic can be seen as a benefit in one operation and a problem in the next. I bought 50 all plastic frames 5 years ago but have ditched most of them long ago. If I recall correctly, I think you use a Cowen 60 extractor as well. One thing I was told when I bought my extractor was that spraying Pam on the chains, bars, and contact points help minimize jams. This works very well especially in fall when propolis gums things up.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

good to know, we had some frame jams last year


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>How many posts indicate an issue at times wth bees drawing out plastic? Are you claiming that plastic draws out easier then foundation? IF you are I think you're the only one here with the miraculous claim. 

Probably not claiming wax draws out quicker on plastic, but certainly easier. From my perspective. 
And I was referring to the comment made about more honey produced without plastic frames. I dont believe that nor have I experienced that.

>>I bought 50 all plastic frames 5 years ago but have ditched most of them long ago. If I recall correctly, I think you use a Cowen 60 

Hi Allen,

I know what you mean, when running empty frames through the machine, they tend to get caught in the machine. The wooden ones are heavier I guess.
As for full frames, I usually dont have a problem, aside from loading errors.
I have to mention, I run the newer cowen uncappers. I hardly watch the machine as its running. The old cowen on the other hand , ..... lets just say it was challenging.
In the corner, I have a pile of broken frames from the year. 90% of them are wooden wax and wooden/plastic. Common trend, wood frame construction. 

Spraying Pam is an idea. I have huge amounts of propolis gather on my chains. I have to wash them after every extraction .


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

The driver from Cowen who delivered the machine told me about Pam. I actually like the Coop brand (not honey coop) better--Pam can get a little sticky. If we spray the chain in between loads in fall, we get very little propolis build up and it comes off much easier. Go through 5 - 10 cans a year.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

The pam idea sounds good. I would like to add that i bought a shark steam cleaner when it was on sale from canadian tire. It made quick work on cleaning the garbage out of the chains. It seemed to help reduce the number of twisted frames as well. 
I like the wood with plastic. Rarely is there a blow out with the plastic inserted frames, and easy to scrape off if the frames are full of crystalized canola honey like the past season. Thankfully the wax spinner helps to reduce the honey that does not get out from the scraped off comb.
My only problem with the wood frames is the # of times i break them trying to get the frames out of the boxes. Especially the older frames, but a few new ones.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

We use all black peirco in hive bodies, wax coated. Durable, good acceptance for us and easy to see eggs.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

honeyshack said:


> My only problem with the wood frames is the # of times i break them trying to get the frames out of the boxes. Especially the older frames, but a few new ones.


That's why they invented deboxers. :lpf:

We actually blow the bees out when we pull honey, so all of our frames have been moved in the field and are no longer stuck together. However, a Cowen deboxer does push them out nicely.

I curious, does the steam cleaner melt the wax or is it just easier to washout. Seems like a great idea.

We also staple the plastic foundation the to the wood frame at three spots using 5/8" air staples. Twice along the top and once in the middle of the bottom. Frames don't often pull apart this way.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

The pressure from the shark steam cleaner pushed out the wax faster than it can melt,and seems to break it down. There was not alot of wax on the chains, mostly propolis. I did the steam cleaning in the morning after everything had dripped out- no honey in the bottom. I did go through a bit of paper towel cleaning up the junk. Might try shop towels next year, maybe will not go through so much. To "grease" the chains, i used a new disposable cattle syringe with canola oil. Pam sounds easier. No risks of spills.

The deboxer will come in time.

We blew out the bees on the last pull last year. Once the engine got fixed. Way easier on the frames in the honey house. Would have done it sooner, but the bee blower was destined for the bush with a stick of dynamite. It has since been fixed. 

does the foundation not crack when stapled in?

I think i break more frames in the field especially in the brood boxes where they are more gummed up with propolis.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

What kind of extraction system do you run Honeyshack?

Allen, what advantage do you find with stapleing the foundation in? Have you had blow out problems with your frames?


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

i run an old cowen uncapper a 30 frame maxant (older) and a 20 frame dadant.
Someday...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

With enough man power that will extract alot of honey in a day,


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian said:


> what advantage do you find with stapleing the foundation in? Have you had blow out problems with your frames?


Biggest advantage I think is while taking of honey, the frames don't pull apart as easily. I find the foundation that is not stapled in can come out or move if the frames in the top super are really waxed onto the super below. Worst case scenario, the bottom bar breaks. A lot of guys I know only staple the bottom.

Another advantage is that the top is more solidly attached and rarely detaches when prying a frame out of a box, especially from a brood chamber. We also staple the sides bar to the top bar from each end.

Don't know how much we again by doing this put takes hardly any extra time to do.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

honeyshack said:


> does the foundation not crack when stapled in?


Never seems to be a problem. Missing the foundation with the staple is a bigger problem.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Does anyone dip the PLASTIC foundation in beeswax, or dip the frame up to the top bar in liquid wax?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I haven't, but I have heated and dipped PermaComb in beeswax and shook off the excess.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

irwin harlton said:


> Does anyone dip the PLASTIC foundation in beeswax, or dip the frame up to the top bar in liquid wax?


I don't, but I buy wax coated Permadent.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

I have also bought wax coated permadent, but I often wonder what else is in that wax............. chemicals, miticides, maybe even its from china , the wax is a food container


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Good point Irwin.

However, given that I've gone through the apistan and coumaphos cycles, my brood chambers are probably in much worse shape than a minute coating of wax on the plastic foundations.

With this justification, I just saved myself a pile of work dipping foundations.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ya Allen, I see your point in stapleing
Might try some this winter,


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

With wood and pierco foundation I would have bottom bars break out. My fault for having to much air pressure on my stapler and fracturing the bottom bar material at the staple. When running all plastic Pierco plugged out, they would consistently hold 4 lb more per super. This is an average on 90 boxes. I only wired and waxed for the first 2 years. As for those Cowan chains. I used hot water to spritz the chains every other load. My nozzels shot a pin point spray and they were fed through 1/4 in black nylon air brake tubing, and were hanging down from the ceiling.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

One question Ihave about spraying chains, water or pam or whatever, 
dont you find you have a terrible problem with the propolis oozing off the chain into the honey?
One thing about having the propolis stick on the chain, is that is stays dry and doent make a mess of your honey. When I wash my chain at the end of the day, the chain drips propolis liquid. 
Just a thought,


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## beedave (Apr 23, 2006)

any brand plastic wax coated in a wooden frame, the bees don't seem to care, provide feed or a good nectar flow


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

This might be of interest. We compared several brands of plastic some time back.

http://honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm

(Scroll down a bit)


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

allend said:


> This might be of interest. We compared several brands of plastic some time back.
> 
> http://honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm
> 
> (Scroll down a bit)


Thanks for the data. it's clear and to the point with good graphics.
Ernie


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks for the article, most informative! Reinforces what George Imirie maintained, that drawn comb is the beekeeper's most precious resource. Most of us, however, do not have the option of giving drawn comb when we first start out. We have to begin with foundation, or foundationless... It seems to me that one conclusion to be drawn from the article, for those with little to no comb as they begin, is you should plan on reduced honey harvests, as you build up that resource of drawn comb. And then, when you get drawn comb, especially in your extracting supers, you protect it!


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