# Interesting Pattern To Mid-Winter Losses



## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

Only three more months to go... So far so good, hopefully you do not suffer anymore losses.


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## giant pumpkin peep (Mar 14, 2009)

3 out of my 5 hives where wilbank italain. From the same load yours where. All my hives are dead. If ya want to discuss this further shoot me an email

[email protected]


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> All hives received the same mite treatments. Treatment was consistent among all hives in all yards.............................
> The facts speak for themselves.
> (Anyone else see a pattern to the losses, or are the losses random?)


The pattern you see is that the dead hives were Wilbanks stock. The question is-Would those hives be alive if they were managed differently than your "local" stock instead of being treated(managed) the same?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>"died out already, despite having plenty of stores. The dead clusters were softball sized and were in contact with capped honey. The clusters had dwindled quite a bit from October. Both dead and living colonies were heavy with stores"

Similar here again and the last few winters, but the remaining clusters are alive, lemon size, or no bees at all. I see winter robbing of dead hives this year.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

What was your mite treatment, and did you test afterwards to see if it worked?


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## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

Countryboy; For what its worth, I gave up on purchased bees/queens several years ago. Did a check yesterday and I am 7/7 alive and well, with no treatment(s). I like my mutts!


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Oldtimer said:


> What was your mite treatment, and did you test afterwards to see if it worked?


10 4 on that old timer if most who had "CCD" did this i think they might be surprised.
Nick


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How would one establish a control group for Countryboys' example?
Were some queens much younger than others? From what you wrote, I believe that the Wilbanks headed cols had older queens. Next season requeen all cols w/ new queens in Sept. and see what you get for winterloss.


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## Sweet to the Soul (Sep 1, 2010)

I live in NW ohio and had the same warm spell. Went through all hives. Another 77 gone with same simptoms as described above. Makes 200 since honey harvest. My other hives look strong with good flight activity yesterday.

I had 30 packages from Wilbanks also. Not saying they are the problem, but only 5 of those remain. They were super stong and produced 165# honey average and I left them a good store also. I really don't blame the packages, I think it was the beekeeper (me).

I treated with formic twice after harvest, but as OT pointed out I did not do a follow up test. :doh: Sent live and dead samples to beelab. Nothing found but varroa mites. No nosema, no trac. mites, etc., just varroa 

So the lesson is I have to learn how to deal with varroa mites. I don't want to use too many chemicals, but I can't afford to lose 60 to 70 % of my hives every year. This is my second year in beekeeping and welcome advice on dealing with mites. I do need a system for larger operations, had 370 hives this year and hoping for 500 to 700 next season so it can't be too time consuming.

Thanks
Kevin


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Wilbanks sells bees for honey production. If you want to over winter you might want to replace your queens with something that will over winter. There is those out there that do just that. Maybe not the cheapest way of going about it.

I buy 100% Wilbanks and use them the way they were made to be used. 

Find the right tools for your operation.

If you want bees that make you some honey and over winter. You might look into the breeder that make the bee for the job.

The right tool for the job does make a differents.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

You might raise queens from your strongest hives that overwinter. In a few years your loses will be a lot less.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

It sounds like the queens/packages form one supplier might have a problem. But, that may not be the only problem.

It would be interesting to find out if all the queens came from the same breedings.

Pre- and post-treatment varroa numbers would have been interesting too.

With three beekeepers in relatively close proximity seeing significant early losses it would be nice to figure out what is going on since my hives are inside the triangle made up by their locations. 

I would guess it is more than just one queen lot/supplier.

My two colonies appear to be doing fine. I started with a package with a Russian queen this spring and did a July split and gave then a Russian x Ohio Italian survivor stock queen. Both colonies became active with house cleaning on 12-29. Yesterday both colonies were very active and had multiple orientation flights. I have not cracked the lids on either.

Tom


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## Sweet to the Soul (Sep 1, 2010)

Like I said before I don't think the packages were the problem. I think it was me!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Wilbanks obviously get their bees through the winter just fine or they wouldn't have packages to sell the next spring. As always good management involves monitoring of mite levels, it is advice that can't be repeated often enough.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Wilbanks do over winter. They are in the south and requeen atless twice a year too. 
Mite treatment is the biggest key. If you can't keep them under control, well. Your screwed!!!:ws:ws


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Most all queen producers requeen at least once a year, not sure why you would want to do it a second time or how that would even be advantageous. As far as wintering in the south goes, most all major beekeepers are overwintering in some warmer climate anymore, if that is all it took to have good bees ther wouldnt be such a demand for packages, queens and nucs in the spring. I'm sure you havent seen truckloads of empty equipment out in sunny California lately have you Keith?


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Jim, You mean there is more to beekeeping then just good queens.:doh: I only wish someone would have told me that years ago.:scratch:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The Honey Householder said:


> ws:ws


Just noticed that the "We're Screwed" icon is missing 2 "e"s. I wonder why?


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

What I'm trying to say is I don't think Wilbanks bees are for every one. I think there's other package bees supplier is the south that they can buy from. Still going to have problem just different kinds. Just hopeing this tread shifts buyers to other suppiers so I can get a second load from Wilbanks.


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

I don't think that it has anything to do with just one supplier. My experiences indicate that it is a problem with bees from the south in general (if you are a northern beekeeper - I don't know that there is a problem with southern bees if you are in the south).

I think HH is right when he says that Wilbanks bees are bred for honey production - not overwintering, particularly in the north. 

I have had similar experiences with other package suppliers in the south (both Hardeman and Gardener, and a friend of mine with Wilbanks). I used to get packages from these suppliers and not one ever overwintered here in ND. Most were dead before January. They drew out wax great, put up fantastic stores and then died as soon as the snow hit the ground. It didn't matter what I did.

So I changed my strategy. When I have to purchase bees, I buy frames of brood and bees from a local commercial beekeeper and queen them with northern bred queens (I like Mike Palmer's - if it is late enough that he has them, if I need early queens, Tim Arheit's can't be beat). If I MUST get a package (for a TBH or other non-traditional hive), I plan on requeening it with a northern bred queen ASAP.

Since I started doing that, my overwintering success has climbed every year (last year almost 70%). 

I have also had Italian queens from California - and they don't make it either, so I run mostly Carni mutts. So maybe there is something to be said for the bee breed as well?


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

I really get tired of folks badmouthing Southern bees. I am in Mississippi and think Southern anything is great.

The problem is not that they come from the South, but that they are bred for a specific purpose, To produce lots of bees early so that they can shake packages so send up North. To do that, they are selected to lay heavily and continually. If they selected bees to shut down production early in Fall and stay shutdown till Spring flow you could not get those April packages you so dearly want.

If you want to overwinter your bees then you need genetics that are bred to do that. Get some Russian or Carniolans queens. Select from Your survivors and produce your own queens.

Just quit blaming everything on Southern bees when they are doing what they were bred to do.

Johnny


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## Darrell Haynes (Sep 13, 2009)

Lost 2 out of 3. Of the 2 that died one was carnolian from ohio and the other was itilian from georgia. The one that is still alive and doing well is buckfast from Miska in Fl.
I think they froze out. dead bees still in cluster. Went into winter with not enough bees. Like others, they were right on top of capped honey.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_The pattern you see is that the dead hives were Wilbanks stock. The question is-Would those hives be alive if they were managed differently than your "local" stock instead of being treated(managed) the same?_

No, the real question is - Why should a beekeeper have to babysit/manage certain hives in a yard differently than other hives?

_What was your mite treatment, and did you test afterwards to see if it worked? _

The specific treatment doesn't matter. The lack of losses in other hives in the same yards says the mite treatments were effective, in my mind. If mites were an issue, losses should have been evident in other colonies.

_How would one establish a control group for Countryboys' example?_

I consider the other stock to be my control group. To me, losing 3 weak nucs partway into winter does not seem out of the ordinary.

_Were some queens much younger than others? From what you wrote, I believe that the Wilbanks headed cols had older queens. _

Wilbanks queens were this years queens. Last years overwintered colonies had older queens, while swarm queens were likely similarly aged, and nuc queens that I raised are a little younger.
_
Sent live and dead samples to beelab. Nothing found but varroa mites. No nosema, no trac. mites, etc., just varroa _

FWIW, the State Apiary Inspector said there were 3 confirmed cases of tracheal mites in Ohio this year. (Don't bother wasting your time looking for tracheal mites - they are a non-issue.)
The State Inspector says my County Inspector is one of the best county inspectors they have. The County Inspector caused a few raised eyebrows when he said he couldn't find varroa mites in hives he was inspecting. (I am currently trying to contact all clubs members and local beekeepers about mite treatments, but every response I have received so far (9) it appears that we are all using the exact same mite treatment.)
I do not monitor for nosema.

_I really get tired of folks badmouthing Southern bees._

I'm not badmouthing Southern bees. The facts speak for themselves.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> I am currently trying to contact all clubs members and local beekeepers about mite treatments, but every response I have received so far (9) it appears that we are all using the exact same mite treatment.)


Would have been interesting for the rest of us to have known what it was.

My personal feeling is that the mite treatment was not effective or only partly effective, and the surviving hives possibly have some degree of mite resistance.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

<<<<<<<"No, the real question is - Why should a beekeeper have to babysit/manage certain hives in a yard differently than other hives?"

Because you have hives of different lineages that were bred for different purposes. When all hives are run by sisters it is easier being a box keeper versus a hive manager(no arguement meant). As for the mite treatments-bees bred to raise lots of brood have to be managed differently for mite control than bees that shut down earlier with brood rearing. JMO


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

I agree with Beeslave. One reason that Russians are mite tolerant is that they will shut down brood rearing at any sign of dearth. This break disrupts mite reproduction and keeps their numbers under control.

Most queens raised by package producers will starve in a summer dearth raising brood. Many will raise brood into early winter and starve. Its like Angus and Jersey, they are both cows but developed for different things.

Why is that such a hard concept for some people.

Johnny


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Like I said, It's best to use the right tool (bees) for the job. I don't overwinter bees in my operation. My method is to buy the bees in the spring. Then use them for everything that they can produce me. Then shake them out in the fall so I have all winter to get thing ready to go the next year. It's like most big farms. You just don't raise the cow to live in the barn.:scratch:


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

The Honey Householder;605616 I don't overwinter bees in my operation. My method is to buy the bees in the spring. Then use them for everything that they can produce me. :scratch:[/QUOTE said:


> Might not work as well in all localities. Here, my bees store most surplus in March, April and May. There is little honey coming in during June - Sept in the lowlands, some highlands crops come later, but only in some years. Swarming starts 3/1, packages are not available until later than that. The best, earliest and biggest swarms I catch only produce half of what my best over wintered hives produce. I have bought very few packages in my 40 years, and don't remember any of them producing a crop.
> I have been experiencing the winter mystery die off for several years now, and from what I read here on BS it is spreading quickly wide and far. You might be singing a different tune if it becomes so bad that many fewer packages are available and the price skyrockets.
> 
> There are few Elm trees left here, it could happen to bees also.


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## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

It has been interesting reading, with very good input from all over the place and civil!! The information has been great :thumbsup: Different strokes for different folks ?! I do this as a hobby and have found it to be rewarding and flustrating same as growing wine grapes (not a good part of my state). Householder (who I have not met) is a commercial guy. If I were looking to go commercial, my thinking maybe diffeerent. I let my gals do there own thing, with as little intervation as possible, my "mutts" seem to take of themselfs quit well !


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## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

This has been a very good discussion indeed. I truly understand both sides of the fence. I just don't understand how anyone can think that honey production at the expense of overwintering is a long term solution. It is a short term solution for honey but eventually the demand for bees will outpace the supply and then you are out of luck. I might add I also have experienced the lack of overwintering ability of packages. That is not a shot at the south either. I truly believe it is the nature of the package business. They must have bees that brood up very well all the time to meet the supply. That does not necessarily mean good bees for customer long term. Hence what is good for the package business may not be what is good for the rest of the industry long term.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

jdpro5010 said:


> I truly believe it is the nature of the package business. They must have bees that brood up very well all the time to meet the supply. That does not necessarily mean good bees for customer long term. Hence what is good for the package business may not be what is good for the rest of the industry long term.


A fair assessment, that is exactly what package suppliers need in their own bees.
But realise that the queen you get with the package does not have to be the same strain as the bees in the package. There are some suppliers, who will intentionally supply a queen more suited to your area so that by the time winter comes, or whatever seasonal quircks happen in your area, the bees are adapted.
Just a case of knowing which suppliers they are.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Would have been interesting for the rest of us to have known what it was._

I have last years list of registered apiaries. There are approximately 300 hives at these apiaries. So far, I have results from owners of 170 hives. There are several people with registered apiaries who are not club members, so they are harder to contact.

Of the owners of the 170 hives, all of them are using the same mite treatment. I have heard second hand reports of a brand new beekeeper this year trying a different mite treatment than the rest of us are using.

Last winter, club members reported losing 42.8% of hives. I have no data on winter losses of non-club members in the county. I also do not know how many of the losses were package hives versus overwintered hives from the year before. Personally, I know most of my losses were packages last year, but I didn't have as many hives to compare with.

This fall at a club meeting, the County Inspector reported that he was not finding mites and most hives were producing 100 pounds surplus honey.

While the winter losses are more than we would like, it appears that mites are being kept under control enough to make a nice crop in a good year.

An older beekeeper in the club told me before that he doesn't have much luck with package bees. He has the most success with swarms. This has really gotten me thinking. Last year, I lost some package hives but I blamed it on a really bad year and not feeding them enough. This year, seeing hives with commercially produced queens dropping like flies right next to hives that were doing great has really made me ask questions.

I thought perhaps it was my feral stock base - perhaps the black bees I see in cutouts and have started seeing in my hives since I started raising my own queens. I found another club member who sees black bees on his flowers, but none of the other club members have black bees in hives. This tells me that the black bees are not the determining factor.

I have some small cell and foundationless frames in my hives. There are only a few local beekeepers using small cell and foundationless, and most of them are doing it because of me. I had some small cell and foundationless frames in hives that died, and some in hives that are doing fine. With so many other local beekeepers not using small cell and foundationless, I can't say that this is a determining factor one way or the other.

Perhaps we somehow are developing resistant native stock here. However, people say that wild swarms and feral hives are just recent escapees from other beekeepers treated hives. That got me to get the club to do a poll of members and how they treated for mites. If the swarms out there are from their treated hives, our local stock should be comparable quality to the bees in everyone's hives. 

So far, our mite treatments appear to be the one thing everyone has in common. (other than having honeybees) So far, over half the hives in the county are getting the same exact mite treatment, except for one new beekeeper trying a different mite treatment. (I have no idea how it worked for him, but I heard he did mite drops before and after.)

What is real surprising is that at our club meetings, we tell people to use certain mite treatments, and then we all go and use something else to control mites. What is even more surprising is that we all ended up using the same exact mite treatment. I get the idea that we all thought we were the only one using this, because while legal to use, most people are hesitant to use it, and its use is often discouraged. No one talks about it at the club.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

OK I'll Bite!
So what is the secret magic legal mite treatment????


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

CB-What's the big secret?

Also have you been asking about nosema counts and treatments?

I left 5 hives behind from almonds

Hive 1-My daughters first hive. 2 deeps and a shallow with 4" insulation box on top. Oliveraz Italian package installed last April 3 on all new frames and foundation. Treated with absolutely nothing except the 6 gallons of HFCS to get them to draw out 2 deeps. Then they drew out the shallow on top and the bees were left with everything. They still have enough honey left to get them through till next fall and still have a very strong population .

Hives 2 & 3- Swarms that came from hives I had at my house run by Latshaw Aurea's(Italian) that came from David Miksa. They settled into 2 deadouts I had tried to overwinter last year that were sitting side by side. They were treated for mites but never had to be fed. They are in double deeps with a 4" insulation box on top. Both of those are still doing great.

Hive 4- This is a 3 storey 5 frame nuc. This was a late swarm that took residencey in a nuc so I gave them the 2nd storey and later gave them the 3rd with 5 frames of honey for the winter. They are Italian ranging from aurea, parks line, oliveraz, or hawaiian stock. They were treated for mites. They are still doing great with 5 full frames of honey above them yet.

Hive 5- This one I thought for sure would be dead by now. When I moved all my bees into the loading yard to be shipped to CA I had 1 extra hive that should have been culled out but I kept it in case it was needed to fill a empty spot when the last of the bees were brought in. It was a late swarmer that had a new queen but only 5 frames of bees. Thankfully when they swarmed the lack of brood allowed them to fill the hive with honey. After I loaded the bees on to the semi for CA all the extra stuff in the yard was loaded on to my flatbed incuding that hive. That stuff is still sitting on my truck. After shoveling 3 ft of snow off that hive last week to unload it I was really surprised when I seperated the boxes(1 1/2 story) there was still 5 frames of bees in the 6 5/8 on top. They were treated for mites and nosema last fall.

Now the reason I just spent this time typing this is to say- All these hives are headed by commercial queens bred for the commercial migratory beek and they are ALL alive.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> So far, our mite treatments appear to be the one thing everyone has in common. (other than having honeybees) So far, over half the hives in the county are getting the same exact mite treatment, except for one new beekeeper trying a different mite treatment.


Sounds very secret squirrel!

1/2 the hives in the county use this treatment, but it wouldn't do to share it with the people on this forum!

everybody knows except us. worth keeping quiet about obviously!:shhhh:


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

Very interesting read...

42% loss rate, insane...

Local inspector says mite(s) are low. Testing method?

I know our club(s) buy from the same package producer, is your club(s) the same?

Yes what is this secret treatment? Is that causing the deaths?

As for some of the statements, I have to agree with some that posted this. A beekeeper shouldnt have to worry about bees die'n out over winter vs honey production. If that was the case, I wouldnt buy from that producer again. Seems to me a way to make money every year. Your package bee hives die out and it gets blamed on winter losses. Strange to say indeed. I have wondered this a lot. I know a lot of people that are taking huge losses this year, all package bees. Our state colonies have dropped from 80K to 30K in one year, this really bothers me.

I think more info is needed and more questions will come.

So far I am working 14 hives, all are doing great as of a few days ago. One hive doing good enough for me to get swarmed when I opened the hive. Some mean beez. I used powder sugar to treat mites (very small count, but treated anyways). I use standard foundation and plastic frames. No shb. I feed heavy in fall/early winter 2:1 and feed pounds of fresh ground pollen daily for weeks.

I would like more info however.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

ChristopherA said:


> 42% loss rate, insane....


Agreed :thumbsup:





ChristopherA said:


> As for some of the statements, I have to agree with some that posted this. A beekeeper shouldnt have to worry about bees die'n out over winter vs honey production.


This is not quite as simple as it may seem. 
The main method of varroa resistance that is being bred for is VSH (varroa sensitive hygiene). What that means is when the bees detect a capped larva is infested with varroa, they pull it out, thereby disrupting the mites breeding cycle. How effective the bees are at VSH can be measured, in my country the best ones we've got have been measured at 87%. (Remember VSH is a step up from just general non specific brood hygiene).

The bees that varroa mites came from, _apis cerana_, can tolerate varroa in the wild. But a study of their behaviour shows they spend heaps of time grooming, cleaning, etc, and don't make much honey.

So here is the issue. Bees that are spending time on hygienic behaviour, are diverting resources away from honey production. A commercial beekeeper, who needs max honey production, may demand bees that will rake in the honey, but are defensless against mites and have to be treated or die. The commercial beekeeper may consider it worth the cost of treating to get high producing bees, or alternatively just let them die after the honey harvest.

At the other end of the scale there are people who have bees that never get treated, yet survive. But mostly these bees will have some kind of mite load, and this will take it's toll, plus whatever mechanisms the bees are spending on mite resistance diverts energy from honey production. So a bee that is fully mite resistant but a high honey producer is a rare thing indeed, if it even exists.

People buying packages and queens need to figure out what they want, then research where to get it, then manage it accordingly. If that's understood, and done, shouldn't be too many sob stories come winter.


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

Disposable bees is basically what I am getting from the last post.

I dont have a problem if the commercial keeper wants to do business this way, even though in the long run it doesnt make business sense.

However if this is proven some how to be the case, I would expect the provider of the bulk packages to at least release a statement of such. It doesnt make sence for the hobbiest to buy these packages, including large orders from bee clubs.

I personally have never purchased a package. My bees have came from nucs or splits to nucs then to 10 frame hives.

However with that said, I am planning to buy packages this year for the first time. I plan to requeen every single one of them. I just dont have trust in the bulk industry atm. Not just from this post, but from the USDA and data indicating over 35% queen loses from package bees, which lead to a lot of hive failures.

Just my feeling on the matter, and it brings a lot of insight to what people are dealing with. I would hate for my club to purchase lets say 1500 packages and 42% dont survive the winter even though the keepers do what they suppose to do. Again, just my opinion.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

ChristopherA said:


> Disposable bees is basically what I am getting from the last post.


 Hmm... I thought there was quite a bit more to my post than that. 
Just for the record my personal opinion is that letting bees die sucks. However there's been arguments about that in the past so i didn't mention my opinion on it, just attempted to explain why mite resistance and honey production do not always come in the same bee. 
I also wonder why people just sit back and watch their bees die of varroa. If they are newbies who lack the knowledge well they can't help it, but if they are people who could have saved them they should have.

There is nothing wrong with packages in themselves. If you want good mite tolerant queens try BeeWeaver, and I believe RRussel has them also. Plus there are others but they are just two that spring to mind.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I'm with Raosmun. In my 9 yrs of beekeeping I've purchased only 2 queens. Long live mutts!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

ALthough a little off topic, I do not see packages as a complete solution to replacement of lost hives, or adding new. It is best for bees to always have a queen, so there is a queen in the box with the bees. It is a starting point, at a time of the year when there are few other choises. Install them, observe them. Are the bees from the queen a kind of bee you want? It may take a year, but observe how they overwinter. If not, take control of the genetics, and replace the queens with queens that you prefer.

Roland


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Interesting discussion, that has made me a little nervous. My first check of my hives in winter is in mid-February... I've done all I could for them in the fall. I have purchased nucs, packages, and queens from southern breeders. I do NOT treat for mites in any way, shape, or form. Haven't for 5 years. Last year I took 14 colonies into the winter, lost ONE to starvation - my fault. 13 survived. I entered this winter with 26 colonies, time will tell. The other day when the temp hit 50, I looked at the 5 colonies in the back yard, all were flying. fwiw
Regards,
Steven


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I got 2 packages [VSH x Russian] from Shad Sullivan [California] and 2 from Gardner's [GA] [Italian] and one from NJ [this one failed from the start. Tried to requeen but never recovered. Lost one Gardner's in spring, drone layer and new queen didn't take so I shook it out. The other 3 are alive and doing well as of yesterday. I think the CA packages were stronger and better queened, but too expensive to get out here.


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

I can add to the package bee debate. I am a hobbyist and have two hives and two spilts. THe two full size hives were started from packages from Gardners (italian). THeir service was fine. However about sometime in early July one of the queens simply stopped laying. I noticed essentially no brood and a lot of swarm cells. She was still alive however , and I split her off. She never layed another egg for the next month despite vigorous feeding. Now these bees were able to raise another queen in the main hive and she did lay fairly well but not as heavily as I was hoping going into the later summer flow so I did not get as much goldenrod/aster as I was hoping and it was everywhere here!
The second colony was troublesome as it was apparently shipped with a virgin queen who did not start laying for a month and limited early bee populations. 

Now at our bee club meeting (kalamazoo, mi) last winter I remember talking to this guy who is well known urban beek from detroit (cant remember his name but he is very nice, knowledgable) and he was saying that the georgia packages had a high failure rate and was related to queen trouble. well i would say that I experienced that first hand. While the one package was able to raise another queen, who knows when this new one will stop laying.

So hopefully these two hive will make it though the winter but this spring I plan on replacing the georgia genetics with locally raised queens from the upper midwest here-hopefully some NWC and MSHxVSH queens. One I have these genetic in place I plan on using the OTS queen rearing from www.mdasplitter.com and raising a population of local survivor mutts.


the splits are a whole other story for another time


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

i forgot to mention that these package bees loved, and I mean loved to rob each other.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I found like so many of you that the queens out of the south in early spring was not very good. Well what kind of weather did they have to get them mated in. Queen I bought in May to replace the sub-queen was well worth the money. I had a 197 lb avg per hive. I see a lot of finger pointing at packages, which should be at queens. 
Here a question. How many know what breeds are good for what? :scratch:


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

At the beginning of every bee club meeting, our club President says a prayer and asks for God's blessings on the bees. Then in our meetings we talk about monitoring for mites, and treating for mites, etc. Then we go home.

I have confirmed that one beginner beekeeper treated his hives with Mite Away II.

For the owners of over 170 hives in the county, the only mite treatment we use is the prayer asking for God's blessing on the bees. I have been unable to find anyone other than the beginner beekeeper who uses any treatments on mites. We have a local guy who sells quite a bit of bee supplies. I asked him if he sells many mite treatments to Knox County beekeepers. He said no, that not very many beekeepers have used mite treatments for two years.

I knew that I didn't treat for mites, and my neighbor didn't treat. If people asked me about mite treatments, I told them I didn't treat, but I told them that I had enough hives that I could handle losing hives to mites. Also, I am not supporting a family, and I can afford to invest more into bees than others can. I felt that if my losses were high enough, I would consider treating then.

When I saw bees with commercially produced queens dropping like flies right next to feral bees, my first gut feeling was that maybe our feral bees had developed some sort of mite resistance. I see black bees in feral hives occasionally, and since I started raising queens this year, I am seeing more black bees in my hives. I also asked club members if they have black bees. Other beekeepers with black bees is negligible, so for countywide, it appears that black bees are not a determining factor.

I also have some foundationless and small cell frames in my hives. But I know very few other beekeepers in the county do, and the ones who do, have began following my lead. I have a mix of sc, foundationless, Pierco, and large cell frames in my hives. I had hives die, and I had hives live with this mix of frames. I can not definitively say one way or the other if it is helping me, but I don't feel it is hurting me. However, due to the lack of sc and foundationless across the county, I do not feel they are a determining factor.

Mike Palmer has said that if you do not treat for mites, to expect to have losses, and plan a way to replace those losses. Based on his advice, I was trying to raise queens from my best overwintered stock, and trying to overwinter nucs so I had a way to replace my losses.

There are people who say that the feral bees are nothing more than recent escapees from other beekeepers treated hives. After a club meeting this fall, a few of us beekeepers realized that none of us were treating for mites. This made me wonder if there were pockets of the county where hives were not treated. I had no idea it was the entire county. This seriously raises doubts about the theory that feral bees are nothing more than swarms from treated hives when there are virtually no treated hives in an entire county.

Last winter, there was a 33% loss nationwide. This is why the club surveyed members, to see how we compared. We had 42.8% loss. I know that most of my losses last year were packages, along with another beekeeper who lost most of their package bees. We chalked it up to not feeding enough and it being a really bad year. I wonder what our % loss was of just our overwintered hives, if we do not include losses of packages. This year, I am asking club members to keep track of losses of both stock, to see if packages are making up the bulk of our losses.

I talked to Joe Latshaw, asking him if it was possible that our bees had developed a resistance. He said in his opinion that it was unlikely that our bees had developed a resistance. He said that mites are generally a bigger problem in high colony densities, and when you have hobbyist beekeepers you normally have lower colony densities. He said that if a beekeeper splits their hives and catches swarms, they can get by with not treating.

I still have no good explanation of why our bees are surviving without anything more than prayer treatments, nor do I have any good explanation of why everyone quietly stopped treating.

If after a bad year, we have 40% losses, and in a good year we have 100 pound crops...I can handle getting by.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Questions I've been asking myself...

Are commercially produced queens THAT bad?

Is our Knox County mutt stock THAT good?

Do we have weaker mites here? (But I saw a new beekeeper start a package on drawn comb at the end of April, and in September it was devastated with mites. Interestingly, it was right beside a TBH with a feral swarm that was booming and doing great.)

How much of a factor is it when the whole county doesn't treat?

It should also be noted that we don't have much contact with commercial beekeeping here. It's my understanding that one orchard has 100 migratory hives for one week in the spring for apple pollination and they pay $40 a hive.

The club President told me when mites hit 20 years ago, he lost all 13 of his hives. He has 10 hives now, and rarely loses a hive.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

_Do we have weaker mites here?_
I’m writing this from memory…so it isn’t exact. I’m sure I’ll get many corrections. Tom Seeley did a study a few years ago. In the pre-varroa, nineteen sixties he checked the survival of new feral colonies in an isolated forest. So, a few years ago he returned to see if any existed and if so, how they survived in today’s environment. Because of it’s isolation he was confident that any feral colonies he found would be several generations removed from managed hives. He was pleased that using the same process, he captured a similar number of feral swarms. The following spring the same percentage had survived the winter. Upon checking he found those survivors were much infested with varroa. In follow up testing he concluded that it wasn’t the bees’ ability to reduce the varroa population that allowed them to survive but that the varroa were less virulent.

I’m not sure that this is in any way a factor in your situation but it is food for thought.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

beemandan said:


> _Do we have weaker mites here?_
> I’m writing this from memory…so it isn’t exact.
> 
> Tom Seeley did a study a few years ago. In the pre-varroa, nineteen sixties he checked the survival of new feral colonies in an isolated forest.
> ...


That was the Arnot forest. He talks about vertical and horizontal transmission. Vertical transmission of varroa is transmission within a colony...from this year's population to next year's and so on. Horizontal transmission is from one colony to another to another. 

It benefits the parasites if they don't kill the host. When honey bee colonies are isolated, only vertical transmission is possible, but when colonies are kept in close proximity, transmission between colonies..horizontal transmission...is easy. If there is always another colony to infest, then it doesn't matter if the parasite kills the host. If on the other hand, the bees are isolated, there are no other colonies to infest and the parasite becomes less virulent, and the species lives.

This past summer I asked Marla Spivak if there were varroa rersistant bees out there anywhere. I hear all the time of beekeepers who haven't treated for X number of years, and wanted to know if she had any leads on same. She said NO, there are none...and her designing the Minnesota Hygienic Bee. She said it's the horizontal/vertical transmission theory. When isolated, varroa become less virulent. Move those bees away from isolation and they crash from varroa.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

So taking this one step farther..... Is it the "new and different" mites(and associated pathogens) in the packages(or nucs) that is causing the problems, and NOT the bees and/or queens themselves?

One of the commonallities of the group in question is relative isolation.

Roland


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hmmm.... Well those last 3 posts put a new spin on things, or new to me, anyway.

Some food for thought.

Much Thanks Guys!


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

There is a lady in our bee club who bought a package of bees and installed them on drawn comb. They barely made any honey, and by the end of September the broodnest was a mess of DWV baby bees and the cluster was very small. These do not seem like weak mites to me. I built a TBH last year, and let the lady play with it this year. I caught a swarm and put in it. The TBH was right beside the package hive. The lady harvested over 50 pounds of honey from the TBH, and it was huge and booming at the end of summer. No DWV bees or phoretic were visible.

The one guy who treated with MiteAway kept mite drop counts. He also obtained 2 hives that had unattended for 3 years with no attention or treatments. After applying MiteAway here are his daily drop counts:
Hive 1 package hive: 110, 84, 84, 64, 64, 40, 40, 40, 35
Hive 2 package that requeened itself: 60, 14, 14, 6, 15, 15, 13, 13
Swarm: 508, 508, 266, 168, 131, 131, 128, 168, 168, 158, 85, 85, 7, 7
Split from swarm: 390, 390, 177, 148, 96, 96, 88, 103, 103, 101, 61, 61, 27, 27
3 yo unattended hive1: 960, 220, 220, 220, 220, 44, 44, 44, 55
Unattended hive2: 375, 107, 41, 40, 75, 77, 77, 82, 33

He said that he liked the control of the Mite Away II, but it shut down the queens, and he thinks it hurt his winter buildup.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I have heard mutterings about bees that came from sources that treat die faster than bees from sources that don't treat. Whether it's from the gut bacteria getting messed up or what, who knows. I know it looks peculiar to see hives from a source that treats their bees dropping like flies, while hives that haven't been treated are still alive.

This spring, I fed the Wilbanks packages about 7 pounds of Global Patties. (mix of 4% and 15% pollen) Splits I made from those packages, that I gave mated Wilbanks queens, received 3 or 4 pounds of patties. Overwintered hives got 3 or 4 pounds of patties too. Nucs I made this summer didn't get any patties. 

We had a good flow this year. There was only a couple weeks in August when I didn't see any nectar coming in. There was no real drought to stress plants to produce poor pollen, so that does not appear to be a nutritional issue.

I did not feed any supplements this fall. I just never got around to it, and the bees were bringing in plenty of multi colored pollens.

In the spring, I fed sugar water. I added a splash of Honey Bee Healthy to each 5 gallons. I also added a probiotic capsule and a spoonful of inositol in each 5 gallons.

Latshaw told me that mites are more of a problem in areas of high hive density. Is the higher hive density causing competition for resources, which stresses the bees and allows mites to gain a stronger foothold? 

Is there a tipping point when if a certain percent of hives in an area are untreated, the bees seem to be able to sustain populations? Michael Bush is running something like 200 hives, and he told me he thinks about half his neighbors are treatment free. We appear to have a high percentage of beekeepers in my county not treating.

Is there a sweet spot to hive density and population counts where if enough people are not treating, the bees can handle the mites, but if you exceed a certain hive density, the mites start being a problem again?

Latshaw told me that it's difficult to tell if bees have developed a genetic resistance to varroa. He said we need to mark queens to tell. he said under normal conditions, you have 18 to 24 months before the hive dies. However, if the hive requeens itself or swarms, the brood cycle is broken and you have to start over again. My question - could supercedure be a genetic response to a certain mite level? Could that be a way they have developed to control mites? From a practical beekeeping standpoint, as long as the hive is making bees and honey, overwintering and surviving, I really don't care if the hive needs to requeen itself through supercedure to control mites.

Knox county was mostly covered by glaciers in the last ice age. Much of it is flat, but my corner is where the glaciers stopped. We start getting small hills, and within a few miles we get really hilly.
Yard 1 is in glaciated flatlands. This is the yard where I lost 5 of 10 Wilbanks hives. The surrounding area is mainly grain cropland, with some small forested areas. There are few animal livestocks.
Yard 2 is smaller hills. I lost 2 of 4 Wilbanks hives in this yard, and the 3 weaker nucs. There is a mix of grain crops, hay, pasture, and bigger forested areas. There are a lot of Amish farms in this area.
My home yard is similar to yard 2, but I don't have any Amish farms near me. I have 5 hives here, all alive, and my neighbor 1/4 mile away has all 14 of his hives still alive so far.
Yard 4 is in rugged hills, and heavily forested. Grain crops are minimal, with most fields being hay or pasture. You expect to hear the theme song for the movie Deliverance to start playing at any time when you are in this area. There is a large Amish community near this yard. All 10 hives are still alive.

Moisture and ventilation does not appear to be an issue. All dead clusters were dry. I drill a 3/4 or 1 inch hole in my brood boxes. I have probably 10 screened bottom boards under hives, and I leave those open. The rest are solid bottom boards.

I cut 1 inch thick insulation into 16 by 20 inch chunks, and put them inside a 18 X 24 inch ziplock bag. I also have some styrofoam lids. All hives either have a styrofoam lid on them, or one of the styrofoam pieces. For nucs, I put the sheet insulation on top of wood lids, with a migratory lid on top to hold it down.

My brood boxes are a mix of wood, styrofoam, and plastic boxes.

Probably 80% of my combs are 2 years old or less. I have heard Canadian beekeepers say they winter poorly with fresh combs. It's ok to run light combs in the summer, but you want dark combs for overwintering. While I have a few darker combs, they are mixed pretty evenly among the hives.

Another variable is that 14 of the 15 Wilbanks hives were ran as singles with an excluder this summer. The 15th was ran as an open broodnest. I also ran a couple of my regular hives as singles too, with deep supers, and I used the deep frames to feed splits and nucs. Both of those hives are still alive and doing well.

Allen Dick in Alberta Canada always ran his bees as singles in the summer, but wintered in doubles. He would give them another box after pulling the honey, and he would feed 5 gallons of syrup per hive. Roland on here told me they ran singles, and overwintered by adding another box for clustering space and they fed 4 gallons of syrup. Both have experience with thousands of colonies, and wintered fairly successfully.

For my singles, I added another box, and I fed 4 gallons of syrup to each hive. My fall syrup had a probiotic capsule and a heaping spoonful of inositol per 5 gallons, a splash of Honey Bee Healthy, and I also added 5 heaping spoonfulls of Tang in every 5 gallons of syrup.

One of the Wilbanks hives that I ran as a single, the queen got above the excluder. I gave them the usual second deep box like the others, and I also left them a medium super with honey and brood. I already had syrup mixed to feed all the hives in that yard, so I went ahead and gave that hive its 4 gallons of syrup too so I didn't have to haul the syrup back home. That hive was one of them that died.

Is running the hives as singles a factor? I don't know.

It's not always easy to recognize cause and effect. Sometimes, little things months ago play a factor now. Sometimes too, cause and effect are easy to recognize. I know what I am seeing with my hives. I don't fully understand why I am seeing what I am seeing. Weak mites? Tough bees? Luck? Something else?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Countryboy - Just for the record, we do NOT always have good luck wintering, but know the cause if we do not have good wintering. For clairity, the deep we add for winter is BELOW the brood chamber, and is ussed mostly as a dead air space.

Now, go back and read your post about the DWV and think that maybe the package was the source of the problems, and not that the bees where better or wource that the bees in the TBH. The mites may have been the same strength between the hives, but did they carry the same pathogens? 

Again, isolation will cure the problems. Any hive that has a lethal situation, and the pathogen/mite can not spread before the hive dies, will remove the lethal pathogen/mite from the area, leaving only the sub lethal pathogen/mites.

Roland


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

Very detailed read!

Keep it up, I think this is a very educating thread.

Chris


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Now, go back and read your post about the DWV and think that maybe the package was the source of the problems, and not that the bees where better or wource that the bees in the TBH. The mites may have been the same strength between the hives, but did they carry the same pathogens?_

That's a very real possibility. Maybe the package arrived carrying high mite loads and who knows what else. Maybe the swarm had few mites and few pathogens.

When I see a first year package hive crashing from mites the first summer, at the same location as a TBH with a local swarm that is doing great... 

Other factors may be at work, but anecdotal evidence appears to say that a beekeeper has a higher chance of keeping a hive alive with local bees instead of a package.

FWIW, the swarm came from a beekeepers hive. He cut the hive from an old abandoned building 6 or 7 years prior, according to him, and he had never treated his hive for anything. He was retired now and didn't want any more hives than the one on his town lot, so he called for a beekeeper to come get it.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> That was the Arnot forest.


Off topic but, the Arnot forest is a blast from my past. My last responsibility as an extension agent with Cornell was hosting the state maple tour. One of our stops was at the Arnot forest sugar house.

Tom


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

In seriousness of the topic.

CB-What kind of comb were the packages started on? If foundation, what kind. I assume the TBH is natural comb and the overwintered hives already had drawn dark(darker) comb.

Many(A. D. is one) will say that bees overwinter poorly on newly drawn comb.
Some complain about outgassing on plastic foundation.

If I missed it I'm sorry but I asked about nosema(which could have came with the package bees or in the queen herself and doesn't mix well with mites)


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Beeslave said:


> Many(A. D. is one) will say that bees overwinter poorly on newly drawn comb.


My best hive this winter is on all new comb, mild climate.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Countryboy - you may 100 percent correct with your ancedotal evidence. Do some testing next year:

IF both hives survive, split the Langstroth hive into a TBH, and vice versa. Make cells from the TBH, and populate a yard with 20 hives using the cells. Try to not add any packages to a yard, and add a few to another. Make up a whole yard of packages. Be aware of teraine differences, seing how you are on a terriminal morraine. Who does best?

We have not seen any dramatic problems with packages, but have observed that not all package queens are created equal. Typically the late packages queens and bees expand faster (younger bees, better queens)than the early ones, but the early ones that do not have a queen failure are ussually slightly ahead, seeing as they had a head start. 

Keep the clues coming...

Roland


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> Do we have weaker mites here? (But I saw a new beekeeper start a package on drawn comb at the end of April, and in September it was devastated with mites. Interestingly, it was right beside a TBH with a feral swarm that was booming and doing great.)


We have two Varroa Destructors in North America. One is from Russia a Korean strain and the other from Brazil a Japanese strain. The Russian mite is believed to be more virulent. How they are distributed through out the country and what factors it may implicate, I don't know.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_CB-What kind of comb were the packages started on? If foundation, what kind. I assume the TBH is natural comb and the overwintered hives already had drawn dark(darker) comb._

I have a mix of foundationless frames, PF series small cell plastic frames, a few Pierco, and a handful of large cell older combs. I would estimate that over 80% is 2 years old or less. Overwintered hives from last year, splits, packages, and nucs have fairly comparable combs. (Nucs might have a few more fresh combs they drew this year.)

If outgassing or fresh combs were an issue, I would have expected it to affect all hives fairly uniformly. 

I did some YouTube videos this year showing these hives. My Laying Worker video is of the yard with the 5 of 10 losses.

I mentored a lady who bought a package, and started it on large cell drawn combs. Someone gave her a hive that had been stored in a barn for years. The combs were brittle. I also let the lady play with a TBH I had built, and I installed a swarm before I took the TBH to her place.

_If I missed it I'm sorry but I asked about nosema(which could have came with the package bees or in the queen herself and doesn't mix well with mites) _

I did not monitor for nosema. It is very possible that the queens and packages were infected with nosema or some other pathogen. 

_IF both hives survive, split the Langstroth hive into a TBH, and vice versa. _

If both hives at the lady's house who I have been mentoring? I can almost 100% assure you that her package hive is dead. (I gave her a real droney comb to try some late drone trapping - she didn't seem to really understand what I was asking her to do. I also highly doubt that she did any feeding of the package hive, and they would have starved without feeding.)

_Try to not add any packages to a yard, and add a few to another. Make up a whole yard of packages._

I don't plan on buying any more packages.

I do have 20 queens on order from Robert Russell, 10 Italians and 10 Carniolans. I had planned to start a new yard of 5 each, and then the remaining 5 each would be intermingled in other yards so I could compare their directly with hives right beside them with queens I raised or local stock.

The local guy who sells bee supplies normally sells 2,000-3,000 packages a year. Ideally, I'd be able to get all the buyers to let me know how the packages performed after one year, in comparison to other bee stocks that are over 1 year old. That'd be a nightmare trying to keep track of though.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Another thread about biological beekeeping made me think of another variable.

14 of the 15 Wilbanks hives were ran as single deeps with an excluder. When I made up hives as singles with an excluder, I tried to pick good combs with few patches of drone brood. I did have 2 hives of local stock that I ran as singles with an excluder.

In running hives with an open broodnest, I try to move real droney combs to the outside and have decent worker combs in the middle of the box. The queen does have more access to drone combs if she wants it.

I have no idea if the amount of drone comb is a factor.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

CB are you going to continue trying HH's method with your own over wintered bees next spring? How did your honey production from your other hives compare to those you started with the 4 packages from Wilbanks?

Thanks for the posts and videos.

Don


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

The only other hives that I ran as singles I used deep boxes for supers and kept stealing frames of honey to use in splits and nucs. I can't say how their production compared because I didn't keep track.

With hives that I ran as an open broodnest, I think my production would have been fairly comparable if I ran them as singles also. When they have brood in both deep boxes, you don't get to extract the honey in the second box - if you had an excluder, you would have got to extract that honey.

I will likely run some colonies in singles with an excluder next year. To be honest, for my operation it's a royal pain trying to mix up and feed 4 gallons of syrup per colony in the fall. To make it easier on me, I may do my final pull earlier in the season and let the bees keep more of their honey. If someone was set up with a syrup tote on their truck with pre-mixed syrup, and you just pump it into feeders with a hose - maybe then it might make more sense to run singles. I do see why Allen Dick open fed in 55 gallon drums in his yards to prepare for winter.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

My method has nothing to do with overwintering. That way I don't have to deal with these HEADACHES. I buy Wilbanks packages and queens, because they do the job that needs to bee done. I work package bees, I don't let them work me.
CB when was the last time you bought packages?????


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

> Countryboy; 
Is the higher hive density causing competition for resources, which stresses the bees and allows mites to gain a stronger foothold?<

Probably not about competition for resources. More about greater colony density which means greater varroa density and horizontal transmission through drift and during foraging. 

>My question - could supercedure be a genetic response to a certain mite level?<

When something is wrong...out of balance within the colony...the bees blame the queen and she is superceded. Doesn't matter if the problem is disease, imbalance in nurse bee population, queen going droney, or whatever. In a way it is a genetic response but not to varroa load alone. 

>My fall syrup had a probiotic capsule and a heaping spoonful of inositol per 5 gallons, a splash of Honey Bee Healthy, and I also added 5 heaping spoonfulls of Tang in every 5 gallons of syrup.<

A probiotic capsule, Inositol, HBH, and Tang...in their syrup? Maybe they died from indigestion. You forgot the Pepto Bismol.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_CB when was the last time you bought packages?????_

I bought packages in 2009 and 2010.

_A probiotic capsule, Inositol, HBH, and Tang...in their syrup? Maybe they died from indigestion. _

Then why wasn't the indigestion widespread? Why did it seem confined to one set of bees?

Are you suggesting that probiotics, inositol, HBH, and Tang set better on their stomachs if fed in patty form?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Countryboy said:


> Are you suggesting that probiotics, inositol, HBH, and Tang set better on their stomachs if fed in patty form?


Not at all. I was wondering why anyone would add all that to their bees' diet at all. Tang?? The breakfast drink??


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

CB, Was your packages from the same producer, and did you have problem both years. 
For years we tried managing the mites. I tried many different methods. The method I use now might not be the best, but it works. I believe in a higher prower too. I am well blessed. Through hard work, and some mistakes the crop is produced each year. All this is done with package bees. Year in and year out I buy package bees and produce tons of honey. 
As one that wants to rear queen and sell nuc. Why would you beat down a comm. product? Is it to make your product to look so much better??? I hope you do produce a better bee one day. Until then I'll let the 3rd and 4th generation comm. producer do the job that they have done for generation.
I just don't deal bees, but I make a living from those bees. Really without the comm. producer where would we bee.:ws


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

CB, don't get the idea that I'm trying to criticize. It's just my opinion that if bees need all those additives in their winter feed to survive...thay aren't very good bees.


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## THALL (Apr 6, 2010)

Tang the breakfast drink? the stuff that is similar to koolaid? Now I got a chuckle out of that. Man they just cant get enough of that good stuff. hahaha. I wonder where I could buy some in bulk?


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Not at all. I was wondering why anyone would add all that to their bees' diet at all. Tang?? The breakfast drink?? _

The probiotics are an attempt to help get good bacteria in the bee guts in case there were bacterial imbalances. Granted, we still don't know what all beneficial bacteria are in the bee gut, and the probiotics I gave may not be of benefit to them as they were designed for people. To my reasoning, if it was beneficial to the bees, it would help them, and if it was of no benefit to them, I was out pennies and it unlikely would hurt them.

Inositol is a vitamin. BEES4U Ernie posted a study some time ago about adding inositol to artificial bee diets which helped the bees to rear normal brood. (I have also seen reports that bees don't use inositol.) To my reasoning, it was only pennies, and great if it was beneficial, and I couldn't find anything that said inositol was harmful to bees.

Honey Bee Healthy is a feeding stimulant. I would mix in a splash of HBH to the syrup to encourage the bees to take down the syrup faster.

Tang is high in vitamin C and slightly acidic, which helps lower pH closer to honey. If you search the Bee-L archives, I think you will find that Tang was one of the secret ingredients in the old California Bee Diet.

_Was your packages from the same producer, and did you have problem both years. _

I had different bee suppliers both years. I don't know if problems were exactly the same both years, as there were other problems in '09 like a really bad flow, and I had Russian packages in '09 also. I helped mentor a lady in the bee club this year - the package she purchased (from a different supplier than mine) collapsed in a beeyard right beside a hive with a swarm of local bees that was doing great.

_As one that wants to rear queen and sell nuc. Why would you beat down a comm. product? Is it to make your product to look so much better?_

If a commercially produced bee is inferior, then folks need to be made aware of it. If I had hives with commercially produced queens that was thriving when others were crashing, I wouldn't have a problem saying good things about them.

No, I am not trying to make the other bees I have look better by comparison. While I hope to eventually offer quality bees for sale, I'm not going to pretend that I'm not seeing problems with other stock. 

I see what I see. I feel the best policy is to be honest about what I'm seeing in my hives. It isn't an attempt to slam any particular queen producers - it's an attempt to understand why different genetic lines of bees are showing such a discrepancy in quality.

_Really without the comm. producer where would we bee._

I have heard the biggest impact someone can make on the price of honey is to not produce any. Without the commercial producers, the hobbyists and sideliners would be getting a much higher price for their honey.

_It's just my opinion that if bees need all those additives in their winter feed to survive...thay aren't very good bees. _

I don't feel the bees 'need' all those things. I'd like to think that if I give my bees a little more care than they need, they may return the favor. If I just give them the bare minimum, that may be all I get back from them.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

CB


> I have heard the biggest impact someone can make on the price of honey is to not product any.
> 
> If you are a beekeeper wouldn't you want to make honey??? If you don't have product to sell you can't be part of the market.
> 
> ...


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_If you are a beekeeper wouldn't you want to make honey?_

There is better money in producing bees than there is in producing honey. For a businessman beekeeper, that's a prime reason NOT to produce honey.

Many beekeepers do pollination instead of making honey, as pollination is a guaranteed paycheck. (or honey production becomes incidental to pollination)

To think that beekeepers should want to produce honey is extremely shortsighted.

How many commercial beekeepers were there in the 1940's compared to now? In the 1940's, there were twice as many hives in the USA as there are now.

Imported honey is not the problem. Lack of appropriate tariffs and adulterated honey is a problem.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

CB,
Come on read what you are typing. No guarantees in this business. Just like farming you put the seed in the ground and do all you can for that seed. And still might not get a crop off of it. Same is with beekeeping. If you last another 20 year come back and tell me about gruaranteed paychecks.:doh:

Beekeeping has changed a lot since 1940. Beekeeping in the last 20 years has made beekeeper think. How do you work the bees to stay in business? 30+ years in the business and still have 20+ years in the business to go. :thumbsup:

CB keep reading everything you can, you have a lot to learn still. One day you might have your only method of doing things.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I came across a really interesting research article.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0011096#pone.0011096

They took queens from around the world, and compared how the bees digested and processed pollens. It seems that bees really do acclimate. For example, bees from warmer regions weren't able to generate body heat as well as bees from colder areas. It also seems that moving bees around exposes them to pollens that they have a harder time digesting than native pollens.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Countryboy I can't get my head around why you would feed your bees so much stuff thats not part of their natural diet, it just dosn't make any sense to me.

Just because something is good for people dosn't mean it's good for insects or animals.

I dunno it just sounds plain wierd to me

frazz


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Countryboy said:


> ... They took queens from around the world, and compared how [they] ...processed pollens... It... seems ...moving bees ...exposes them to pollens that they have a harder time digesting...


Ethnic bee food is an interesting idea. Your saying Italian bees prefer pasta pollen, and German bees like Bratwürst pollen best, and Russians bees only collect borscht pollen.

Wouldn't that make Brother Adam’s Buckfast Abby bees suckers for communion wafer pollen, and mean ****** bees could not drink the water in Tabasco?

I got to get some zzzs, goodnight.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Countryboy I can't get my head around why you would feed your bees so much stuff thats not part of their natural diet, it just dosn't make any sense to me._

Do you feed sugar water, protein patties, etc? Nectar and pollen are the natural diet for bees - everything else is not a part of their natural diet.

_Ethnic bee food is an interesting idea. Your saying Italian bees prefer pasta pollen, and German bees like Bratwürst pollen best, and Russians bees only collect borscht pollen._

No, that's not what I'm saying. Bees will collect whatever available pollen. This study looked at how the 'ethnic' bees digested pollens they weren't used to. German bees midguts can absorb more nutrients from Bratwurst pollen than Italian bees midguts.

Anyone familiar with Montezuma's Revenge from drinking Mexican water?


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