# Yugo's or New World Carni's



## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

hello fellow beekeeper I am a commercial beeman in georgia. if your buying queens and think you might get shb's from southern states. just a thought on this subject. no shb's are usely in a queen cage. it is possiable to get mites but not likely.
I would be at ease to order from any commercial beekeeper since most are checked often by state.
more then likely you got shb's already in your area now.
good luck
Don


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

For what it's worth, I took some beetles to the University and had them look at it. The professor said that SHB are everywhere already, they just can't get established some places because of a combination of soil type and climate. We have hard clay soil here and very cold times in winter, usually a week or so of -10 F. Mine were NOT SHB they were some kind of beetle that likes debris though and apparently those have always been everywhere.

He says the migratory beekeepers have taken them everywhere, at this point.


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## WeaverBro (Sep 30, 2003)

Thanks for the insight on SHB, although I hope they're not as widespread as generally thought.

Any input or experience w/ Taber's 'Yugo's' or New World Carniolans Queens? I'm hoping to make a decision and place an order ASAP in order to (hopefully) get an April delivery.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Two things:

1) It is very possible to get SHB with your package bees! It happened to me and others that I know. In fact last spring in my area, the assistant to the state apiarist ordered a package from a commercial dealer in North Carolina and she did in fact get SHBs in her package. Needless to say, that dealer has been restricted from exporting bees to Virginia.

2) Climate will probably have an impact on the SHB's ability to thrive in any particular area, but from what I've seen, the SHB clusters very well right along with the bees. In fact, in the hive that I lost this winter had buried deep in the cells (along with the starving bees) adult SHB. This leads me to believe that if the bees can survive then the SHB can too. In fact there are reports that the SHB can over winter as far north as Minnesota.
I think the local soil conditions may have a greater impact than temperature.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There have been many reports of SHB being shipped top people in packages from the south including here in Nebraska. As Fat/beeman says, they would have a hard time hiding in a queen cage and you could easily look to make sure before you opened it.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Hey AstroBee,
Who is the NC commercial dealer banned from shipping packages to VA because of SHB? Thanks


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## Curry (Sep 22, 2003)

Weaver- 

I bet you wish you hadn't brought up SHB because that is what this thread topic has become... 

I have lots of russian and just three NWC hives. They are very similar in looks and in other ways; no tracheal mite problems, good varroa tolerance, good wintering, quick to build up in Spring, etc. Overall, I prefer straight russian because varroa control is my main concern, but I admit it would probably be a good mix with NWC. Maybe try one pure russian to compare.


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## Curry (Sep 22, 2003)

oh, and I forgot to answer the introduction question... I introduced 40 russian queens into buckfast/italian hives this last year and they were accepted anywhere from 3 to 7 days. A few did not take because of queen cells that I missed, or a laying worker, but most did- just make sure they're not biting at the cage and are easy to brush off before opening the candy up to the workers. (if they're glued to the cage they haven't accepted her yet). It won't hurt the queen to be in there for a few extra days, the workers will feed her through the cage.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

i just ordered NWC queens from indian summer honey farm out of florida they are coming the third week of april call them up weaverbro they sound really good


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## WineMan (May 16, 2003)

I overall like NWC's. If you are really interested in NWC's I think I would probably lean more towards getting them from Calif if you want them "pure" and given your geographic location. Not that you cant get good ones someplace else but I wouldnt expect them to be "as pure". CA simply has a large population of them and the breeders who are part of Cobey's program. How many places in CA have you tried? Perhaps they are all sold out I dont really know but I would start with Strachans then maybe Heitkams and Bee Happy. What about waiting until May for them? 

Im not sure what I would recommend as far as Russians. They seem to be all over the board. Those who have more experience with them than me indicate that the more pure ones seem to do better than most of the hybrids. The problem is trying to find pure russians as there are only a small handful of folks that have access to that number of pure drone source colonies to mate to.


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## WeaverBro (Sep 30, 2003)

Thanks for the feed-back. I think I'm going to give the russian hybrids a try. My Bro has ordered some NWC's, so we'll get to check both out. Sounds Sweet. 

Curry, nice tips, I'll remember them.


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## bamabee (Dec 22, 2003)

New world rocks.I can work mine without any suit all the time. I do always wear a viel though.


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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

If a beekeeper found himself in Tuls, Ok, where would the closest queen breeder be? 

Sorry boys, I have not had a bee journal in my hands in twenty years, so I have no idea who is selling. The last queens I bought came from the Walter Kelley Co. 
Ox


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## dmcdonald (Jun 16, 2003)

I've got two of these 'Yugo-Russian' queens from Honey Bee Genetics. I like them--the bees are gentle. I haven't had them long enough to make an assessment of their mite resistance. I know a beekeeper locally who uses a lot of them and likes them--his hives have shown good mite resistance, whatever that means.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If a beekeeper found himself in Tuls, Ok, where would the closest queen breeder be? 

Closest I know of would be B. (or R.) Weaver.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

wine man do you think that NWC are much more pure than one from say down in florida?


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## WeaverBro (Sep 30, 2003)

The NWC's my Bro is getting are from california thru Strachan Apiaries. They are one of the few listed at O.S.U's website as official providers of this NWC strain. I'm not exactly sure what this means for other providers of NWC's not listed at this site.


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## WeaverBro (Sep 30, 2003)

Thanks for the Yugo input dmcdonald. How would you rate them for honey production and swarming tendency? 

Wineman, I checked with all those you mention and the rest at the OSU website. Bee Happy had queens for April, but had a 20 minimum requirement (I want 12). As for why I cant wait till May..Thats a good question,I guess Im fired up to get them requeened and back in action, the sooner the better (as long as mother nature smiles on us). Also, between my Bro and I, we have two different apiaries (central and northern Indiana), and were hoping to requeen the central IN spot in mid april and requeen the northern IN spot, the first of May. Its like I say!


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## dmcdonald (Jun 16, 2003)

WeaverBro: I don't yet know about honey production and swarming with these bees, because I've only had them one season. I can let you know how things go with them as the coming season progesses. Of course, by then, you will have already made your choice of which bees to use.


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## rayvin37 (Dec 30, 2003)

Hiya Fellow Okie 

There is a lady in tulsa that sells bees & equiment.
i sent u an e-mail with her addy and some info. hope it helps

Ray Vincent 
[email protected]
Southeastern Okla. Beekeepers ASSOC.


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## WineMan (May 16, 2003)

Hey Swarmtrapper

I havent ever used queens from where you are getting them but i know of a few who have and they are satisfied with them so I think you will be happy. If you have ordered carnis from someplace like Strachans before it will be good cuz you can compare them.

To answer your question, yes I believe queens from CA will be much truer to NWC. Im not really sure how important that is. Carnis as a group came from a fairly big geography and even when Brother Adam was collecting them many years ago he found much variablity. 

I would suggest that you do a search for Sue Cobey at Ohio State University. She has been the steward of the New World Carniolan Program which started in CA using existing carni stock alot of which was what is often referred as the old Hardings stock. You will notice that there is a strong selection protocol for breeders and mating within NWC and those suppliers are from CA. One of the things that drove the program was finding tracheal mite resistance which NWC have become famed for along with Buckfast. In more recent years Cobey followed the lead of Spivak and others and has also been selecting for high level of hygenic behavior. I know that is particularly true with the Heitkams and Strachans. Obviously when you dont have all carni drone sources to mate to you get a cross which could be good but on the other hand you can fairly easily loss tmite resistance which is what those breeders in NWC program haveto constantly monitor.

As a side note I really love carnis crossed to other bees. They make for exceptional hybrid vigor and sometimes everything comes together and you get one that also has many other good traits. Sometimes they cross and it really shows the huge swarming fault that carnis are plagued with. Becareful with them wanting to swarm during the berries when your backyard is essentially flooded with thousands of colonies.


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

My choice for NWC would be Pat Heitkam. He and his son Russell are doing a great job. Gus Rouse also has very good NWC stock.

I personally would not recommend Strachan stock.

Pat Heitkam
Heitkams' Honey Bees
25815 Post Ave
Orland, Ca. 95963
Tel. (530) 865-9562
Fax (530) 865-7839
E mail: [email protected]

Rick Schubert
Bee Happy Apiaries
8307 Quail Canyon Rd.
Vacaville, Ca 95688
Tel. (530) 795-2124
Cell 530-681-0101
Gus Rouse
Kona Queen Hawaii
P.O. Bx 768
Captain Cook, HI 96704
Tel (808) 328-9016
Fax (808) 328-9460
E mail: [email protected] www.konaqueen.com 

Ken Friesen
Friesen Honey Farms
8099 Rd. 29
Glenn, Ca. 95943
Tel. (530) 934-4944
Fax (530)934-8311

David Powell
Powell Apiaries
4140 Country Rd KK
Orland. Ca. 95963
Tel. (530) 865-3346
Fax (530) 865-3043

Leonard Pankratz
CAN-AM Apiaries
450 3rd Ave.
Orland, Ca. 95963
Tel. 1-800-228-2516
E mail: [email protected]



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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

Kona Queen Hawaii state that their queens are mated with italian drones. So your hives would be hybreds. I am looking for NWC as well and think you for your list.


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## Charliebuck (Apr 17, 2003)

I requeened with tabers queens this past fall, and they people there are super nice to deal with. I bought some of each. Yugo's and Italians. Both introduced easily.

As far as NWC go the do well, and are good to work with, but I found that when they swarm they sometimes take the old queen, as well as the new queens with them..Leaving the mother hive queenless.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>As far as NWC go the do well, and are good to work with, but I found that when they swarm they sometimes take the old queen, as well as the new queens with them..Leaving the mother hive queenless.

I've only seen this when there were afterswarms. Were there? Afterswarms?


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## Charliebuck (Apr 17, 2003)

Not that I'm aware of.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I just ordered some packages of Carnis from Betterbee. They will be coming from Alabama. Will arrive Apr. 17 for pickup.
I had a 50% mortality rate on queens from Heitkams last year.(of 10) The 10 from the previous year did better. I talked to him about it and he suggested it may have been the weather. I think it may have been the weather he had when he was trying to mate queens. Queens are better quality later in the summer for this reason.

Dickm


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I requeened last September (the best time of year to requeen) all but four of my hives with NWC queens from Kona queens from Hi. They were not my first choice, but my only choice as all other breeders were sold out.

The four that I did not requeen were caught swarms queened with queens from Strachens last spring. According to them Sue comes out and AI their breeders every spring. The daughters that they sell are not bread true as they can not guarantee the drones that they breed with.

The queens did look very diferent from both places, which ones are better I will not know for another six months.

If I was set on requeening very early this year, I would order from Kona as they have queens nearly all year long. Then in September I would requeen again with the stock type that you research this summer.

The best queens are produced later in the year ( after main flow )

Colonys headed by a queen less than a year old are less likely to swarm.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

When you order early spring queens,it is a gamble that the weather will be good.Last springs weather was bad in many of the main queen raising areas of the U.S.So you are right that later queens will usually have less mating problems,though some beekeepers feel late summer queens are worthless(not me).I do have to tell you that I bought a few hundred early April queens last year from Heitkams and those are right now my best hives overall.I graded every hive right before going to almond pollination.
--Mike


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## WeaverBro (Sep 30, 2003)

I ended up ordering Yugo's for the central IN apiary. I mentioned above that my Bro orderd NWC's from Strachen for the Northern IN homebase. We're looking forward to checking out both types. Previously, we have been using all-american italians - I'm guessing that we'll end up keeping a couple of hives w/ Italian genes (I'm still working on my requeening skills).

Thanks for all the input.


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## usahq (Sep 4, 2003)

Re Robin Mountain's previous post: Interesting how he "personally would not recommend Strachan stock" when he was Strachan Apiaries breeder queen manager for several years. He personally wouldn't recommend his own work, what does that tell you? Now that Robin has been gone for a season or two, things have definitely improved at Strachan Apiaries. Robin can do an excellent job yipping his yap about how he's this and that, but the truth is that he really does not know jack about queens or beekeeping. You couldn't PAY ME any amount of money to take a class taught by Robin Mountain on any subject, especially on bees. Enough said for now.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Robin can do an excellent job yipping his yap about how he's this and that, but the truth is that he really does not know jack about queens or beekeeping. You couldn't PAY ME any amount of money to take a class taught by Robin Mountain on any subject, especially on bees. Enough said for now. 

This is clearly a personal attack on Robin. If you wish to disagree with him on a subject, please feel free, but personal attacks are unnecessary, unwarranted and unwanted on this forum.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I second that! Thank you Michael.


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## usahq (Sep 4, 2003)

My post was simply in defense of my friends at Strachan Apiaries, that's all. I feel that it was necessary.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My post was simply in defense of my friends at Strachan Apiaries, that's all. I feel that it was necessary. 

Stating your opinion of Strachan Apiaries and stating your personal feelings about Robin are not the same thing. Please feel free to state your opinion of the quality of Strachans queens. Explaining why you like their queens and why you disagree with Robin does not require attacks on Robin personally.


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## usahq (Sep 4, 2003)

You're right, I probably said too much, but I could have said more. However, I took the comment made about Strachan Apiaires as a personal attack and I didn't think that it was fair.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I havent used any Strachan queens in many years.The ones I got back then were very true to classic carn characteristics.They crossed great with Italians(which was why I bought them,having always preferred Italian and Italian crosses)
---Mike


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>You're right, I probably said too much, but I could have said more. However, I took the comment made about Strachan Apiaires as a personal attack and I didn't think that it was fair. 

I realize that since apparently the people at Strachan are your friends you take it personal. However all he said was that he personally wouldn't recommend them. He did not make any personal remarks against them. Perhaps it would have been a little more "fair" if he could have said WHY without saying anything personal against anyone there. But he did not elaborate on why at all.

Perhaps you would share WHY you WOULD recommend Strachan? That would be useful information for all the rest of us.


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## usahq (Sep 4, 2003)

Okay, how has it turned into what I said when the point was what he said. He was Strachan's manager, he was in charge of queen production, the stock that Strachan has is essentially "his" stock. He said that he wouldn't recommend his own work. And why is that, I wonder? That was my problem. Because you don't know the whole story, Michael Bush, you don't know how incredibly personal, and ironic, his one liner is. He didn't need to elaborate. Maybe I souldn't have elaborated either because I didn't need to, however, I am not apologizing. 
So you want to know why I think that beekeepers should purchase queens from Strachan, Michael Bush? It's important that beekeepers know (as much as they can) the people and the place behind the queens that they pay a lot of money for. Speaking specifically of Strachan Apiaries, the people are caring, experienced, hard-working, detail-oriented, innovative, and available for questions and concerns from their customers. Strachan Apiaries is a multi-generational family business, well respected in the industry. The place is clean and effcient for raising queens. Find out for yourself, www.strachanbees.com.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Okay, how has it turned into what I said when the point was what he said.

I did not take exception with you disagreeing or even asking the question of why Robin wouldn't recommend them if he used to be in charge of queen rearing there. But then you said several things about Robin personally after that. I'm not asking you to like him or agree with him, but to show him and everyone else common courtesy.

Robin only said he wouldn't recommend them. He made no personal attacks. He did not even mention anyone by name. I think it would be helpful if he said WHY he wouldn't recommend Strachen's bees, but perhaps he didn't want to get into that. Apparently you infered a personal attack in that counter-recomendation.

>That was my problem. Because you don't know the whole story, Michael Bush,

I'm certain that I don't.

>It's important that beekeepers know (as much as they can) the people and the place behind the queens that they pay a lot of money for.

Agreed.

>Speaking specifically of Strachan Apiaries, the people are caring, experienced, hard-working, detail-oriented, innovative, and available for questions and concerns from their customers. Strachan Apiaries is a multi-generational family business, well respected in the industry. The place is clean and effcient for raising queens. Find out for yourself, www.strachanbees.com. 

Thanks for the information. As a matter of fact I believe that's where the Carniolan package bees that get sold here come from, although I'm not certain, and I was very pleased with them.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I met Don Strachan once at a CBB queen auction many years ago.I remember being very impressed by him.He raised Carniolans before most in this country and well before NWC came along.I was sorry to hear of his passing.


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

Usahq was the ABF, Honey Queen 2001 and is the 2004 EAS President
Renee Troutman  I would have thought the EAS President should most definitely behave in a manner more befitting the position.

If you have a problem with me  my email address is [email protected]

Michael Bush you are a gentleman. 

Nobody objected when I personally recommended Frank Pendell. 


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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

I certainly do apologies to all whom I have offended, especially Strachan Apiaries, with my personal opinions.

I certainly did not appreciate the personal attack by Renee. As I say my email address is there. See you at the EAS.

Throwing mud is the best way to lose ground

Lets stick to Bee Forum matters. 


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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I dont see why you need to apologize,Rob.Lots of people will post a favorable or unfavorable opinion of a breeder.Usually balances out.But i just about choked when I read the personal attack.It was really over the top!Usahq a little hint:When something someone says on the net really ticks me off,I will type out the angriest really ream em reply ,THEN hit the delete button.Cause chances are after I cool down a bit ,I am glad I didnt send it .Take it for what its worth.
-----Mike


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

Mike it is guys like you who keep this forum sane. 

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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Come on guys.


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

My only reason for taking part in the Bee Forum is to help others, share my experiences and ask for help from other members.

Mike quite rightly says Take it for what its worth. 

For anyone who would like a copy of my resume. Please send me an email and I will send it to you.


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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

This is part of an email that Valeri Severson, daughter of the late Don Strachan, now owner of Strachan Apiaries sent to me in reply to my statement. Yes, my previous employer.

I am the one caring for the breeder stock, doing the evaluations, hygienic
testing, etc. I continue to work with Sue and the stock looks excellent.
This year our bees have wintered better than most of the breeders in
northern California. We're now working on stock that shows resistance to
varroa. You had some good ideas when you were here and things haven't
changed except for my personal losses, which have impacted me greatly.

I therefore retract my original statement and on the above information I
personally recommend that anyone looking to buy NWC queens consider doing so through Strachan Apiaries. 

Lord make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred let me sow love
Where there is injury, pardon
Where there is doubt, faith
Where there is despair, hope
Where there is darkness, light
And where there is sadness, joy
O divine master grant that I may
not so much seek to be consoled as to console
to be understood as to understand
To be loved as to love
For it is in giving that we receive
And it is in pardoning that we are pardoned
And it's in dying that we are born to eternal life


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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## usahq (Sep 4, 2003)

Get the facts straight, Jim Bobb is President of EAS. I don't know what either EAS or ABF has to do with this, but whatever. 
I still haven't heard the answer to the burning question, why wouldn't you recommend queen stock that you had an influence of building? 
And thanks loggermike for your comments, and I did type and delete, maybe not enough. 
That's all, I'm done. Someone else can have the last word if they want.


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

Please check http://www.easternapiculture.org to see who who in the EAS

President EAS
Renee Troutman
Myerstown, PA
[email protected]

Vice President EAS
Jim Bobb
Lansdale, PA
[email protected]

I suggest for the sake of the good members of this forum that if you have any further insulting comments that you wish to aim at me, that you have the decency and respect to refrain from using this forum to do so. 

This is a forum to discuss Beekeeping, and not People. Respect it PLEASE!!!



[This message has been edited by Rob Mountain (edited February 21, 2004).]


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I would be surprised if any early queens are still available from Strachans .Likely they are all booked up.The original question about Yugos-They werent real popular,but the breeders have been working with them so they no doubt are much improved over the original importation.


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

Great at last we are back on the subject. 

Where can I one get Yugos?


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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well

[This message has been edited by Rob Mountain (edited February 22, 2004).]


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