# Honey house questions



## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

We are considering building a new honey house and have a couple of questions. (best would mean cost effective, not unlimited budget)

1. What would be the best coating to put on the floor to help keep from slipping? Does anyone groove the floor?

2. What would be the best way to cover the walls so they can stand up to constant pressure washing?

3. What is the best floor drain system to use? Is the u drain worth the expense?

4. Anyone built an in ground honey sump?

Thanks


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

FRB sheets for the wall. The same stuff that is used in commercial bathrooms. 
David


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I used white roofing tin for the inside of my honey house. Not sure what the best answer is for that.

Floor covering is epoxy but if you get the nonskid type its a real pain to get wax and propolis off it.

I have seen in ground honey sumps. My only concern is how easy it would be to knock crap into the sump at floor level and if you need to warm the honey before pumping how would you accomplish that?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I have had an in floor sump for years and love it. Just make sure it extends above the floor an inch or so to keep wash water out. It needs to be heated. Ours is sitting on foam with "v" grooves for pex tubing cut in the top. A small water heater and pump are used to first circulate hot water to our uncapper blades then to the in floor sump. We have steel panels on the walls, throughout but I think the dairy panels on the bottom are a better way to go. Floors are another issue, they need to be smooth for easy scraping and cleaning but then they become quite slick, I'm interested in hearing others solutions to this problem. Also floor slope and well thought out drain placement is quite critical for cleaning ease.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

It's not realistic to expect to heat your honey in the sump, that's where a heated floor to store honey before extracting comes in. If the honey is warm enough to extract then it's warm enough to pump out of your sump. The warmed sump just keeps the honey from getting cold when you aren't extracting.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya, I use to heat my sump mainly to prevent granulation


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The U drain cost me about $500 per 10' length. Very small cost considering everything else involved in the floor. 
The other option is drains, or a basic gutter. Remember the basic gutter still costs you in labour to form and you still need grating over top and a sump.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I was just looking at those drains. For sturdy SS ones they look to cost around $900.00 us to purchase plus labor to install.

Heating honey and pumping out of sumps???

So Jim, Ian are you two using progressive cavity pumps? I have warmed my honey in a hotbox for the past 5 years since moving to NY and still have issues with pumping the honey out of the sump with standard gear pump. This past year I used an auger pump with minimal issues, except I had to manually turn it on and off.

Jim a fairly reasonable solution to the slick floor is the rubber restaurant mats. Gives you a nice cushion for walking on and gets rid of the ice skate rink issue.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Brian, a gear pump can be a bit overmatched if the honey gets cold that's for sure. I dealt with those for years. Put a moyno (progressive cavity) pump on your Christmas list. Pricey but one of the best investments I ever made, plus you are good to go if you decide to go with a spin float.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Yes I haven't found much use for the gear pumps I have with the exception of the one we use for bottling. Of course that honey is 100 degrees out of the drum. I have been considering spin float and progressive cavity pump. Albeit they are pricey. I am writing up plans for my amish neighbor to build me a heat transfer for before the spin float and will utilize that this year with my current spinner. Another issue I run into is I dont have a general heat source in my current honey house. I am thinking about installing an apartment heater in it this summer though.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> Brian, a gear pump can be a bit overmatched if the honey gets cold that's for sure. I dealt with those for years. Put a moyno (progressive cavity) pump on your Christmas list. Pricey but one of the best investments I ever made, plus you are good to go if you decide to go with a spin float.


Jim what moyno model did you purchase and what can I expect to pay for one?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

BMAC said:


> Jim what moyno model did you purchase and what can I expect to pay for one?


Here is Cowens current price list.
http://cowenmfg.com/equipment-price-list/ 
Cook & Beal's pricing is pretty similar. My understanding is the Cowen units are Argentine made and the Continental units that C&B handles are US made. Pricing is pretty similar and both are no doubt very good. I opted for the 3" stainless Continental. I'm biting the bullet and getting everything stainless, seems like a commonsense long term goal to do so. What a beast that pump is, we can adjust the speed that it runs and typically only run it at around 30% so I would say a 3" is probably overkill for most operations. Its so quiet you only know if it is running by looking for honey flowing out of the discharge pipe at the end of the heat exchanger. Ironically the only times it failed to pump were first thing in the morning when it was sucking warm clear honey. The solution was just to run it in reverse for a few seconds, stir the honey in the sump and turn it back on.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Or you can build a 2 story building, and not have to use a pump. Gravity rarely fails. The only down fall is it may be hard to ge the proper floor pitch on the upper flour if pre cast concrete "Span Crete" is used.

Freezer board 5 foot up the walls is good, as is monolithic epoxy textured floor.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BMAC said:


> So Jim, Ian are you two using progressive cavity pumps? I have warmed my honey in a hotbox for the past 5 years since moving to NY and still have issues with pumping the honey out of the sump with standard gear pump.


ya I just switched to using a progressive cavity pump. Before I used two gear pumps pulling the honey up from the sump no problem


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I don't use a sump at all. Pull the honey back from the extractor with cowen wax collection auger, mix it with the wax from the uncapper and then pump it to the heat exchanger with C&B progressive cavity pump. I am not totally satisfied with the mixing of the wax and honey before it gets pumped but prefer it to using a sump. Progressive cavity pumps are great pumps. Bought a second one this year for pumping the honey from the spin float to the tanks.

I seal my floor every year with concrete sealer. Probably not as nice as epoxy but sure a lot cheaper and does the job nice for us. Slipperiness is not a problem as long as you keep the floor clean. Wet is fine. A poorly mopped floor where honey has not all been removed is a disaster waiting to happen.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

what kind of sealer do you use Allen?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Roland said:


> Or you can build a 2 story building, and not have to use a pump. Gravity rarely fails. The only down fall is it may be hard to ge the proper floor pitch on the upper flour if pre cast concrete "Span Crete" is used.
> 
> Freezer board 5 foot up the walls is good, as is monolithic epoxy textured floor.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Is it more cost effective building a 2 story building or using pumps?
I know a beekeeper that uses a two story honey house and sometimes he accidently leaves a drum of honey on the floor because nobody is down stairs.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

We coated our floor with Rustoleum EpoxyShield.
We are VERY, VERY happy and impressed with the result.
There are many very helpful You-Tube videos about this epoxy floor coating and others as well.
But a word of warning:
PREPARATION IS EVERYTHING!!!
If the floor is anything other than brand new concrete, and you want a perfect, long lasting floor, preparation goes way beyond what they show in the video's.
We rented a super heavy duty floor machine and purchased several very aggressive pads to clean the floor.
First we mixed up some heavy duty industrial degreaser and hot water and scrubbed the floor with the floor machine.
The soapy solution turned into a soupy dark brown yuck.
Then vacuum it all up with a wet and dry.
Rinse and repeat, over and over vacuuming it all up until the wash and rinse water stayed clear.
Then SEVERAL more rinses.
Next step is to etch the floor. Carefully chose the etch material and method. This step is very important!
Let the floor dry.
Now you can fill cracks, floor joints, dings and holes with the matching epoxy joint filler.
Then coat the floor.
We also sprinkled the decorative chips on the coating as we went. Looks really nice.
Cracks and floor joints disappear completely if done right.
Watch the videos and DON'T CUT CORNERS or get in a hurry.
Our floor makes our honey room sparkle!
Couldn't be happier!


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

I'm a beek from Montana but my day job is steel buildings. We have a building system that is 100% galvanized(not a quonset hut.) We build a lot of veterinary buildings because of the number of times they hose down the inside in a day. Galvanized won't support mold or bacteria. We use a white steel panel to line the inside of the building so they can put the water to it. It works better than fiberglass panels and is a lot cheaper. Let me know if you have any questions. You can see some examples on my website www.tntbuildingsystems.com Steve Thorson 406 580-4944


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

HarryVanderpool said:


> We also sprinkled the decorative chips on the coating as we went. Looks really nice.


Those decorative chips allow easy clean up of wax and propolis?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Harry, what was the cost per square foot?


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Ian said:


> Harry, what was the cost per square foot?


Well this is one of those, "Either I can spend two hours looking up two year old invoices, or you can get current material prices."
One way gives you out dated info and wastes my time, the other gives you meaningful info and starts you on the path.
Sorry Ian; I have already gone through it all and you will have to also.
Just remember to factor in the floor machine rental, abrasive pads, degreaser, beer, etc..
I repeat; go to YouTube and watch every single epoxy video that you can first.
If I had not done that, I would have had no idea of how sorely deficient the prep info was on the Rustolium videos.
That said, with proper prep their floor is to die for.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I can not accurately answer whether a single story or 2 story building is cheaper. As a general rule, going up is cheaper than going out, but the cost of the prestressed concrete floor may equal the savings in roof area.

In the 60's, we had an agitated tank in a 4 foot pit with a Moyno pump feeding a spin-float. The majority of the stoppages in production involved the agitated tank and pump. Broken frame pieces and wax balls would stop the pump.

In the 80's, the shop was moved to a 2 story building. fewer barrels where overfilled, mostly because a bigger tank with a bigger valve was used. The operator stayed with the barrel as it filled.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

HarryVanderpool said:


> One way gives you out dated info and wastes my time, the other gives you meaningful info and starts you on the path.
> Sorry Ian; I have already gone through it all and you will have to also.


thanks Harry


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Crabo said:


> We are considering building a new honey house


Say Crabo, I have just built a new one. The most useful thing about my building is the office area. I centralize my entire operation around this space as it provides a place to separate your house from the honey house. If you have a corner in your building, make space for it!


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian said:


> what kind of sealer do you use Allen?


Have used a couple and have settled on sealer from Menards. Cost me about $50 a year for the 2000+ square feet for the hot room and extracting room.

Prep work would be similar to what Harry described. In new concrete etching or a good scrubber does the trick. I acid etched the concrete in the extracting facilities and only used the floor scrubber in the super storage building with equally good results. Annually we pressure wash the floor, scrub it with a floor scrubber and then seal it. Sealing it only takes a couple hours.

I am sure the epoxy finish is superior, but I am very satisfied with the sealer. Very easy to clean, sweep or mop. The only negatives for me is that with snow on the feet it can be slippery - not sure how this would compare with epoxy. Some moisture does seem to get through and if the floor gets a lot of water on it, spots get a wet look but it dries much faster than untreated concrete. If you don't wash with bleach water periodically so mold does appear. After 5 years I have no mold spots on the floor. I am not sure how much build up there will be after a lot of years, but as of now this is not a problem.


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

Thanks for everyone's advice so far. It looks like we will start with a 30x40. We have a 60 frame Cowen and are waiting on some plans from them. It is not a lot of space, but we are going to build it and place it where we can add on to it at a later date.

One of the things we want to do is include some area where we can process deer and make sausage. We found some used stainless steel sinks that we can get cheap and I think we can make that work also.

I was thinking for the walls of the hot room, and cold storage, that it might be a good idea to use metal studs instead of wood. Anyone have an opinion on that?

What is the most cost effective way to do the walls since they will get power washed from time to time?

Any opinions on using a tankless water heater for cleanup? I understand that one that will heat to 180 really helps with the cleanup.

My background is Paint and Body. My wife is the beekeeper and this is new to me. She has some really good friends who are helping and mentoring her.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

As a painting contractor the best prep for a Epoxy floor is in order of best blast track, diamond grind, acid wash is the poorest. Even a new floor will get blast track for the main reason it provides tooth for the epoxy. 
David


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Roland said:


> I can not accurately answer whether a single story or 2 story building is cheaper. As a general rule, going up is cheaper than going out, but the cost of the prestressed concrete floor may equal the savings in roof area.
> 
> In the 60's, we had an agitated tank in a 4 foot pit with a Moyno pump feeding a spin-float. The majority of the stoppages in production involved the agitated tank and pump. Broken frame pieces and wax balls would stop the pump.
> 
> ...


Living history and excellent feedback. Spin float in the 60's.

What was the serial number? Was it 3?

Roland thank you very much for more insight. 

Please elaborate on the cost of prestressed concrete floor being = to roof area?

So I agree with the operator staying with the drum. Nothing like natural sight and the operator I speak of doesn't have a large crew. 2 person crew in fact. I offered to set them up a CC video feed to downstairs so they can see if disaster happens without being down there every two minutes.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Crabo said:


> What is the most cost effective way to do the walls since they will get power washed from time to time?
> Any opinions on using a tankless water heater for cleanup? I understand that one that will heat to 180 really helps with the cleanup.


I am convinced with White roofing tin on the entire interior. Its accepted here for both butcher shops and honey houses.

I know one person who uses a tankless hotwater heater and he is an engineer and swears by it. With that said he uses a lot of hot water as he owns and operates a commercial winery.


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

BMAC said:


> I am convinced with White roofing tin on the entire interior. Its accepted here for both butcher shops and honey houses.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> How do you prep the walls behind the tin? How are the windows and door trimmed out to keep water from running behind the tin?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

For equal floor space, a 2 story building will have half the footings and roof costs. That will be offset by the higher cost of precast spancrete foor for the upstairs. A person would have to talk to a contractor and find out the exact costs.

I do not know the number on the Spinfloat, but the Cowen was the first one delivered East of the Mississippi, I believe in a Datsun pickup by Mr. Cowen.

For drum filling in the 60's, I made a float that activated a door bell buzzer when the drum was full. Xan't trust them teenagers(me) to be on the ball.

It would be interesting to examine the costs on a staggered 2 story building, The down fall of the spancrete is that it stays cool, and creates a basement humidity problem. If the 2 stories where shifted(built on a hill like ours), so that the lower section had it's own roof over half it's area, and half the upper was on a slab, it might be an improvement. Our downstairs is for full and empty barrel storage, and is really too low, barrels can be stacked only 3 high.

I would be careful with the white steel on the walls vs. freezer board. Talk to your inspector and get his opinion first. 

Crazy Roland


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Yes so it does depend upon your inspector and state regulations. Fortunately here we are allow to use the white roofing tin. As far as trimming the windows and doors, the company that rolls out the tin also make trim and installs it for me. Zero wall prep behind it set aside insulate and wire the walls. keeping water out from behind the walls is done with caulk. Only need to caulk outlets, windows and such as the tin is overlapped.


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

We recently remodeled a vet clinic we built 10 years ago and there was no sign of moisture in the walls. We have also replaced the fiberglass panels in a vet clinic and a couple of dairy barns with metal panels because the metal is easier to keep clean and they last longer. The metal panel we use has a finish warranty of 45 years when used on the exterior. The metal is smooth and the fiberglass is rough. We also do quite a few 2 and 3 story buildings and the cost per sq. foot on the multi story buildings is quite a bit less. Here in Montana we pay about $3.50/sf for an 1-1/2" light weight concrete floor. We also use a product called diamond seal. It is very hard, and easy to apply. The solvent based sealer products are a lot better than the water based products. The other thing to consider with the sealers is when you apply. Some you apply within 24 hours of the pour and some 30 days after the pour. The ones you use 30 days later are better but sometimes you just can't wait that long.


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

We built a 48 x 64 honey house. The floors have been epoxied. The building is divided into 4 rooms, extracting, hot, storage and office with bathroom and shower.. Honey sump is surface to meet inspection standards. We have 2 U floor sumps, one for the extracting room and the other does the hot room and storage area. They are pumped to septic system so as to meet inspection standards. All walls and roof were engineered panels insulated at R35. All floors other than the extracting room are heated. Wiring is done with Tech cable. Lighting is florescent.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Just got my electrical done, waiting on my hydro hook up. Everything is just about in place, just a few things to finish up. Cant wait to get the place into production!


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

PIC Ian. We demand PICS!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ya I guess its been a while since I posted pics of the set up. Will do within the next week or so!


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