# Manitoba Beekeepers Association's “White Paper” document



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

http://manitobabee.org/hive/wp-cont...aliforniaPackagedHoneybeeImportation_v7.1.pdf

The boys are loading their cannons again.

How they can determine the level of US Amitraz resistance by using a quote?  

"Personal communication with Eric
Mussen at the University of California, Davis also put into question how extensive amitraz resistance is in
the US. “You would think that if resistance started that quickly, it would have advanced a good deal by now,
since amitraz has been the treatment of choice by many of our beekeepers for a long time.”- quote from
email communication with Eric Mussen, (Entomology Extension UC Davis)."

What is the extent of amitraz resistance across the US, if any, and if so at what levels? pockets, state by state, wide spread?


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

"How they can determine the level of US Amitraz resistance by using a quote"

They determined the border should close to US package bees way back in 1986 and they have determined that border should remain closed, their reasons for this are illogical 
and do not follow reason.They are possibly insane but they make the rules. They know best and know whats good for you and it is not a US/Canadian border open to US packages....makes their job easier to... and who knows maybe it is all for the best, can you imagine the growth if the border opened ,....there would be triple or quadruple the number of hives in Canada in matter of a few years. Enjoy it, its good, just don't have a bunch of bees die, replacements are few , pricey, and usually of poor quality


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Irwin, regardless if I am in favor of packages from the US or not, my question is how can they base a medium to low risk assessment on Amitraz resistance using a quote as one of their determining factors?


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Well you are beginning to understand who you are dealing with ,CFIA and their wonderful logic.Not many of their reasons are based on actual facts determined by truthful investigations


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

irwin harlton said:


> ,CFIA and their wonderful logic.


This was issued by the Allen Campbell, President of the MBA.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Ian, 

It was once told to me by a coworker while working for a company that made their rules and regulations up on the fly a quote that makes perfect sense in this case....

"You cannot apply logic to an illogical problem"

In this case what they are doing is totally illogical and you're wanting to make sense from their illogical decisions. JMHO


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Lol , fighting illogic with illogic... Might just be quarky enough to get some movement

Is there not any stats or state documentation that could of been dug up instead?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

I agree with you 100% that they should have done a little homework.. 

However, it's always more fun to play John Dillenger and "shoot from the hip" and see what falls..


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

CFIA believes there is wide spread varroa resistance to Amitraz, what are they basing this on? What do they know that we don't know


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Ian said:


> Lol , fighting illogic with illogic... Might just be quarky enough to get some movement


the majority of their illogical argument is that they will get everything that is in North Dakota anyway because of the proximity of the hives. Use their logic and force the border beeks to move their hives far enough away from North Dakota. always use their arguments against them, you may not win but it does aggravate the heck out of them.

as to the apivar argument, It's been posted on beesource a couple of times out of Canada, and in Randy O's article and on bee-l that they think that it's getting less effective.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

irwin harlton said:


> CFIA believes there is wide spread varroa resistance to Amitraz, what are they basing this on?


page 55 in CFIA's Risk Assessment presented Sept 2013;
"The fact that mites have been found on occasion on queen imports from the U.S.,
which are handpicked and inspected, provides evidences that several VAR, including
amitraz-resistant strains and mrVAR, would likely to be in contact with bee colonies
if packages are imported from the U.S."

http://manitobabee.org/hive/wp-cont...13-Honeybeepackages-from-USA_Oct21_2013-2.pdf

So the CFIA states Amitraz resistance in the US as a *fact*... yet they show nothing to back up that statement. That statement reads as the _opinion_ of the CFIA which lead to a moderate risk assessment. As the MBA use a quote as a determining factor to their low risk assessment. 

What the heck fellas, can't we get a clear shot on things? Surely a government agency could get in contact with its US counterparts to dig up some of that information government just loves to compile... And like wise with our industry representative association, surely there are counterparts in the US that have a handle on the varroa amitraz mite resistance situation? 

Is it really that cloudy of a situation? Are beekeepers not having trouble with chemical mite treatments down there? and if so are they not looking deeper into why?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Ian said:


> Surely a government agency could get in contact with its US counterparts to dig up some of that information government just loves to compile... And like wise with our industry representative association, surely there are counterparts in the US that have a handle on the varroa amitraz mite resistance situation?


Ian - This is where the rubber meets the pavement so to speak. In the US for many many (too Many) years there have been government agencies that love to compile data, data that in most cases is outdated by the time it comes to light. We have a major problem in the US where the officials don't communicate anything. Left hand knows nothing about what the right hand does. 

Therefore it has been left up to the professionals in our case "Entomologists" to either prove, disprove, or confirm anything that the beekeepers need. So then they have to get private funding in order to do their work. Then when done they publish the results. 

For another contry such as Candada to get the data they need, they cannot go to the government of the US and expect anthing usable, instead they must contact the true professionals and get their input. 

Seriously, in Canada and Europe beekeepers have been using oxalic acid for quite some time now, and the US has all it's eggs in the basket of the BIG Business and if it's not good for their pockets then it's not good for anyone else either.

All comes down to the mighty dollar.. JMO


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Are there any state government extensions services in the US? Or is it like whats happening in Canada right now, surveillance is being slashed. 
Is there any documented cases of Amitraz resistance mites? and its prevalence?


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## HiveOnTheHill (Jun 17, 2011)

The 2013 Risk assessment does not provide new scientific evidence - the results were the same conclusion as the 2003 assessment.

Key risk factors considered in the assessment are : 
the distribution and prevalence of honey bee diseases in the U.S., 
the extensive migratory beekeeping industry,
the overwintering of colonies in the southern part of the U.S.,the
lack of interstate movement controls,and 
the absence of a national honey bee management program.

Lack of interstate movement control & abscence of national bee mgmt program - those two by themselves would make things extremely difficult when it comes to getting a 100% accurate assessment. This is why you take the information you collect and asses the 'likely consequences'.

Irwin - most of your posts on here regarding CFIA sound a little like conspiracy theory. I realize this was not a border reopening discussion - but I think for some beekeepers it is an easier way to deal with bee losses than to revise and readjust their beekeeping practices. It is unbelievable that some of these places are allowed to process food


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Ian said:


> Are there any state government extensions services in the US? Is there any documented cases of Amitraz resistance mites? and its prevalence?


There are state government extension services in the US in every state. I'm not sure though if they are collecting any data on Amitraz resistance. I think possibly in most cases it is an item that is shouldered by the beekeeping industry and the resistant mites end up killing out the hives. Beekeeping here in the US has always been an industry it seems that the beekeeper owns. It has been "our" problem for so long. It has only been since the big collapses that the government has taken notice of any of the real problems.

When the mites came and wiped out so many hives in the 90's the government got involved and brought in the Russian stock. They left trying to find some way to combat the mites up to the private sector for the most part. 

I believe that the officials know that there are problems with all mite treatments, they just don't bother to do anything about it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

HiveOnTheHill said:


> Lack of interstate movement control & abscence of national bee mgmt program - those two by themselves would make things extremely difficult when it comes to getting a 100% accurate assessment. This is why you take the information you collect and asses the 'likely consequences'.


Point taken, a broad perspective has been taken resulting to The CFIA's conclusion. 

a broad perspective based on...what exactly? One of the main points that has been considered is US amitraz rVarroa, at the very least they could provide us with documented cases reinforcing that stated fact.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

drlonzo said:


> There are state government extension services in the US in every state. I'm not sure though if they are collecting any data on Amitraz resistance.


So, is there fluvalinate resistant mites in the US honeybee stock as documented in Canada?

after a quick google search;

http://www.uoguelph.ca/canpolin/Pub...zman 2010 Honeybee colony loses in Canada.pdf


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## HiveOnTheHill (Jun 17, 2011)

The CFIA opinion on pg 55 of the risk assessment is formed on the basis that the natural risk of contamination from bees in the border regions will not be as substantial and would also be contained to these regions. However with the introduction of US packages, the spread of resistant mites would not be contained in certain regions, it would become a widespread issue and continue to expand as these packages were dispersed across the country.
I would think that it would also be next to impossible to track the natural contamination rate. It can be a little more quantitative if packages from across the US are tested and are showing positive results, then you can start to get an idea as to what percentage is infected and form an 'opinion' as to what the possible outcome may be.

I don't think that you will get an affirmative answer to your original question - the basis for the decision is the 10 pages of referenced material.
The great thing about opinions is that they are neither wrong nor right but can cause alot of argument if that opinion doesn't fall in line with what they believe. Facts can be proven/disproven and are black or white. There may be specific facts that dispute the risk assessment claims, but do they shift the balance enough to outweigh the multitude of other research? I for one don't think so and I wouldn't want the decision reversed until more facts are brought forth in order to form a more educated 'opinion'


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

Ian said:


> So, is there fluvalinate resistant mites in the US honeybee stock as documented in Canada?
> 
> 
> I think it is safe to say Canada and the U.S. have basically the same mites.
> ...


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Ian said:


> What is the extent of amitraz resistance across the US, if any, and if so at what levels? pockets, state by state, wide spread?


"Is Amitraz Resistance in Varroa Real? Short Answer: There is no scientific proof that amitraz resistance exists." Very interesting POV here https://realbeescience.wordpress.com/2013/11/22/is-amitraz-resistance-in-varroa-real/


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

YES it is a conspiracy, its a made up little fairy tale that there would be more negatives than positives from a open border.Big brother has decided whats good for you and in this case its a gov't department that has found it easier to cover their butt, cause that's the first line of defense for a civil servant, protect your job and save face.

.Democracy is not alive and well or the border would be open.Its just easier for the gov't not to spend valuable time and money policing a bunch of beekeepers who get paid for pollinating crops and produce a luxury food called honey

https://realbeescience.wordpress.com/2013/11/23/they-must-have-just-missed-it/


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

"
Democracy is not alive and well or the border would be open.Its just easier for the gov't not to spend valuable time and money policing a bunch of beekeepers who get paid for pollinating crops and produce a luxury food called honey"

Thanks for the non sequitur. What does the border have to do with democracy? 

Here's another great idea... Let's let the American's flood our market with cheap produce, and while were at it, let's bring in wine from south America and call it "cellared in Canada". But to hell with anyone who thinks dairy, and poultry products could be open to the rules of economics. Hilarious!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

US beekeepers stepping up Amitraz treatments and many searching for alternative mite treatments as chemical treatments including Amitraz are no longer effective. A suddy currently being conducted on Amitraz rVarroa is showing indications of Amitraz rVarroa.

Certainly lots of strong opinions sent to me. Digging into this question and receiving some input from US Beekeepers suggested one common theme; Tackic


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## HiveOnTheHill (Jun 17, 2011)

Isnt Taktic an amitraz based livestock treatment, amitraz in a bulk form so to speak? It cannot be shipped into canada legally


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

HiveOnTheHill said:


> Isnt Taktic an amitraz based livestock treatment, amitraz in a bulk form so to speak? It cannot be shipped into canada legally


right but they could and did get it legally until a couple of years ago in the USA and was the preferential treatment of commercial beeks, according to word of mouth.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The word beekeepers are using is ****tail


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Mike:

It may have been, actually it still is, the preferential treatment of commercial beekeepers, but Taktic was not registered for use in beehives.
Interestingly enough Taktic or at least amitraz was manufactured in Canada I think up until 1-2 years ago.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Well now that the MBA executive and some participating vocal members have stirred up the pot with their white paper,hopefully this will bring a large number of members out to the convention next month which will include a short (hopefully ) BUSINESS MEETING to discuss said white paper.
A healthy industry is a one which realizes that remaing as it is might not be healthy


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

quote from the MBA magazine;

"MBA is releasing this "white paper" document to the public, to inform them of our findings, as well as solicit feedback to help develop the necessary procedures and protocols to mitigate the threats.... Please provide feedback to ...MBA secretary... before Feb 30 2015"

A Healthy industry also is run by an executive which represents the issue from all perspectives. And I am sure that is what the executives intention was in releasing this document to the membership and public asking for feedback.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

From the concluding comments of the white paper:

"As part of the domestic protocol of the Federal-Provincial Import permit, the MBA would support the requirement of an affidavit declaration from all participants that purchase packaged honey bees associated with this import permit, stating that they will not resell any bees outside of the province of Manitoba."

Seems like a lot to give up by going it alone. The bees can't be sold outside the province and I presume the bees could not be moved outside the province. Is that only bees that were bought as packages or the whole operations? How about if those bees were sold to another producer? How will offspring of the package bees be tracked? I suspect other provinces that didn't adopt this policy would not allow Manitoba bees to be moved in and possibly would not allow the transportation of hives through the province. The potential of Manitoba bees to be discounted compared to the rest of Canada seems high.

Seems like an headache. Law of Unintended Consequences.


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

Manitoba must use a different calendar than the rest of us or else this is huge leap year.



Ian said:


> quote from the MBA magazine;
> 
> "MBA is releasing this "white paper" document to the public, to inform them of our findings, as well as solicit feedback to help develop the necessary procedures and protocols to mitigate the threats.... Please provide feedback to ...MBA secretary... before Feb 30 2015"
> 
> A Healthy industry also is run by an executive which represents the issue from all perspectives. And I am sure that is what the executives intention was in releasing this document to the membership and public asking for feedback.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

dgl1948 said:


> Manitoba must use a different calendar than the rest of us or else this is huge leap year.


That is certainly a strong indication of how much detailed research actually went into that white paper, and how well it was prepared.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

With the US dollar soaring and the loonie, kiwi, and aussie dollar tanking, this is fast becoming a supply issue only and not a price differential issue. 

The 20% increase in the price of honey since the summer is nice.


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