# Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?



## Daniel Y

What don't they criticize or mock you for? actually a TBH is the only thing I think I have not been criticized for. Rader where are you? your slipping.

By the way. never follow the advice of criticism. it is entirely unreliable. Is not given with your best interest in mind. and probably has little concern for your success.


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## beeman2009

Jack London said:


> Do other beekeepers ever criticize or mock you for having a TBH? Just curious how common this experience is.


Oh yea! Doesn't bother me because I learned 2 important facts about people in general a long time ago; People are afraid of 1) what they don't understand & 2) anything out of their comfort zone. Both are easy fixes, only need an open mind & a willingness to learn. Sadly those are getting harder to find.


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## Colleen O.

Jack London said:


> Do other beekeepers ever criticize or mock you for having a TBH? Just curious how common this experience is.


In a backhanded way, yes. "When you get tired of fussing with those you will move up to a REAL hive" Meaning a Lang.

I must admit this is part of the reason I didn't join the local bee club. I just didn't want to deal with it yet. I might join this year anyway. I think I have learned enough to evaluate beyond the bias.


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## mike haney

the only beekeepers i have seen complain of being criticized or mocked are the ones that read a book and want to tell other beekeepers that _____is the ONLY way or is the "best" or "smartest" way.
if one looks "down their nose" or has an attitude of smugness or superiority they usually get a poor reception no matter what the subject.
my experience with established beekeepers has been uniformly excellent.


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## westernbeekeeper

Daniel Y said:


> never follow the advice of criticism. it is entirely unreliable.


Good advice; take it to heart.


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## westernbeekeeper

beeman2009 said:


> Both are easy fixes, only need an open mind & a willingness to learn. Sadly those are getting harder to find.


Sad, but true.


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## Metropropolis

Jack London said:


> Do other beekeepers ever criticize or mock you for having a TBH? Just curious how common this experience is.



I generally feel bad for the KTBH folk, but don't mind them unless they're annoying about it.

In my neck of the woods, there's a certain precocious self-righteousness characteristic of KTBH keepers, who have been convinced that apian salvation lies in the shape of the box, and miss no opportunity to preach the gospel.

I recall one recent newcomer to our meetings, who would introduce himself and proudly state "I'm using a KTBH, and my bees don't have varroa".

He's a first year keeper.


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## Jack London

Thanks to all for the responses so far. 

I have talked with multiple beekeepers in my area. 

I have heard many colorful descriptions from them about TBH. ie, 

"the ABSOLUTE WORST way to keep bees!" 

"the wrong way to do it!"

Also, people who use TBH "have no sense". 

I just didn't realize there was so much negativity out there. 

Part of what intrigued me about all of this is that in the beekeeping books that I am reading right now, many of them refer to Langstroth as "the father of beekeeping". When one reads that title over and over again, one would almost think that it was impossible to keep bees before Langstroth ever came around! 

Don't get me wrong of course. I am actually in the process of getting a Lang hive myself and I certainly respect the rich history, overwhelming signficance, and wisdom behind it. But my God...some beekeepers act as if you're doing it all wrong if you don't spend hundreds if not THOUSANDS of dollars upfront for a single hive alone. Maybe they should explain that to the bees.


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## Michael Bush

>Do other beekeepers ever criticize or mock you for having a TBH?

Yes. It used to happen all the time on here until Barry cracked down. Someone would ask a question about something to do with a top bar hive and the next 20 posts would be people putting down the whole idea of a top bar hive. It made it very difficult to have a conversation about how to manage a top bar hive... Thanks Barry.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Daniel Y said:


> actually a TBH is the only thing I think I have not been criticized for. Rader where are you? your slipping.


:scratch: If that was directed at me, I have no reason to criticize anyone for simply having a TBH. In fact, I have 3 TBHs myself.

Daniel, when I post "interesting" past quotes that you have made, its almost always in response to an insulting (or outrageous) comment that you have made, (though not necessarily directed to me). If you don't like me bringing up those past embarrassing quotes of yours, simply stop posting insulting comments.


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## stan.vick

Jack London said:


> Do other beekeepers ever criticize or mock you for having a TBH? Just curious how common this experience is.[/
> 
> My two sisters and I started beekeeping about the same time four years ago, all of us started with TBH boxes. We have all been given the cold-shoulder by Lang beekeepers. One night at a church dinner a local beekeeper and I started talking about bees and had a friendly talk about the subject until I said I had TBh, and without saying another word he turned and walked away.
> My sisters went to a beekeeping club and some were friendly, but most were not and some came right out and said they didn't need to be keeping bees in a tbh, they were made to feel very unwelcome.
> When I first started keeping bees I wanted to learn from others so I e-mailed a local club and they seemed very upbeat and friendly, until I told them I had TBH, I never heard another word from them.
> As for the three of us, we are open minded and have tried Langs. We find that each has advantages and disadvantages and that for us a combination of the two works well. On the other hand Lang beekeepers insist that it is their way or the highway.


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## SteveBee

We have several top bar hives. And we've had off-hand remarks made about them from other beekeepers. When this happens, I ask that person how many top bar hives they have used and they usually walk away. If they have actual experience with this type hive, I'm happy to talk to them.


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## Jarvis

Not criticized per se. I have met with 2 arguments over my TBH. 
1. Bees work hard enough as it is, you destroy their comb and make them rebuild (8 # honey = 1 pound wax, etc) 
2. You kill brood each time you extract since the queen will lay all over the hive.

At the conference of the 2013 American Honey Producer's Association I had a conversation with Les Crowder of New Mexico..Top Bar Beekeeping. He presented in a straight forward intelligent way citing stats and research which address the objections. Naysayers have helped me be aware and led me to research their objections. I've come to understand the arguments against top bar beekeeping and am able to address them in a non-emotional way. That's been helpful. Also, understanding that methods are bound to vary depending on your purpose.


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## SteveBee

Our queens don't lay "all over". We harvest bars that are solid honey, not honey mixed with brood. I can't argue with the wax destruction part.


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## Delta Bay

I can't say that anyone from my club has ever directly criticized me for using TBH's. To themselves they may. Our club is pretty progressive with expectations that respect is given to all.
I've given a number of demonstrations at the club and have found that most everyone is interested in how they work and ask many questions even though they're not necessarily interested in ever trying one.

I think everyone is way better off to command respect rather than demand it.


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## Jarvis

It is a misconception held by some beeks who have not used tbh's that the queens lay all over in a TBH. Great opportunity for education


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## Michael Bush

>1. Bees work hard enough as it is, you destroy their comb and make them rebuild (8 # honey = 1 pound wax, etc) 

But drawing comb is what they do. They are not sitting around the hive whining that the beekeeper took their comb, they just make more.

>2. You kill brood each time you extract since the queen will lay all over the hive.

Which, of course, she does not. I've never harvested any brood from any of my top bar hives. I've only occasionally harvested small amounts of brood from my Langstroth hives and then it's my fault for not checking better.


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## Steves1967

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=upbONroWPic 
This is the first in a series of videos about skep beekeeping in Germany a few decades ago. Nobody has ANYTHING on these guys when it comes to "destructive beekeeping"


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## Maddox65804

Unfortunately, I have seen some negativity toward TBHs. However, I have seen A LOT more negativity from the TBH owners who believe that their hive design is the best and that Langs are somehow the industrialization of beekeeping. 

I have both types of hives (vertical and horizontal) and I have tried running frames and top bars in each of those. It all works for the bees if I keep out of the way enough.

Most of the negativity comes from those people who believe they have found the "right" way and want to convert you to it. It doesnt' matter what type of hive design they're selling when their mind set is such.


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## shannonswyatt

Never been mocked, but I have heard people say they won't work, which is strange, since there seems to be a bunch of very successful beeks with TBHs. 

Some folks have a lot of time tied up into there white boxes in there backyard. When you do something different it can upset there "religion". Have fun at what you are doing, or do something different. 

On the other hand, it doesn't hurt to have a Lang or a few. That way if someone does give you crap you can say that you have a Lang, but they have no TBH.


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## praxis178

Yep got told I was taking the local beekeeping community "back 150years" if I persisted with it by the queen breeder I was trying to order a queen from. He the launched into a diatribe of all the things that were "wrong" with a TBH. Which I countered with logic and the admission/acknowledegment that I knew my yields would be lower than for a Lang and that I was willing to accept that and having to "do more work" to keep my hive running. In the end he took my money anyway.

So far that work has consisted of installing the queen and standing back. Very tough to do I admit. On that note I have to rehive this colony as it has out grown the current box (a 2' transfer/capture box) in less than a month of foraging. 

Cheers, Thomas.


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## Michael Bush

>Unfortunately, I have seen some negativity toward TBHs. However, I have seen A LOT more negativity from the TBH owners who believe that their hive design is the best and that Langs are somehow the industrialization of beekeeping. 

"Lord, lead me into the company of those who seek the truth and protect me from those who have found it."--?


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## hpm08161947

Michael Bush said:


> >
> "Lord, lead me into the company of those who seek the truth and protect me from those who have found it."--?


Oh my... I may have to appropriate that....


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## Metropropolis

shannonswyatt said:


> Never been mocked, but I have heard people say they won't work, which is strange, since there seems to be a bunch of very successful beeks with TBHs.


Given the subjectiveness of success, such a broad statement is problematic.

What is a "successful beek with a TBH"?


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## shannonswyatt

Able to keep thriving hives.


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## WVMJ

As mentioned by others, that is an easy way to identify people who probably wont be able to teach you very much about anything. WVMJ


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## Delta Bay

For me success means producing some honey for personal use and some for sale. Sell a few bees from time to time, have my apple tree well pollinated, maintain a few colonies year to year without having to buy in new bees, but most of all it's to have the opportunity to work with and enjoy the bees. Every one has their own description of success and that should be left up to the individual to set the bar. I would imagine anyone that has been keeping bees in TBH's for more than a few years and continue is probably meeting their expectations.


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## shannonswyatt

Delta Bay said:


> For me success means producing some honey for personal use and some for sale. Sell a few bees from time to time, have my apple tree well pollinated, maintain a few colonies year to year without having to buy in new bees, but most of all it's to have the opportunity to work with and enjoy the bees. Every one has their own description of success and that should be left up to the individual to set the bar. I would imagine anyone that has been keeping bees in TBH's for more than a few years and continue is probably meeting their expectations.


That sounds like an excellent definition!


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## Metropropolis

Delta Bay said:


> For me success means producing some honey for personal use and some for sale. Sell a few bees from time to time, have my apple tree well pollinated, maintain a few colonies year to year without having to buy in new bees, but most of all it's to have the opportunity to work with and enjoy the bees. Every one has their own description of success and that should be left up to the individual to set the bar. I would imagine anyone that has been keeping bees in TBH's for more than a few years and continue is probably meeting their expectations.


One could achieve the same with a Skep or a Gum.

With the bar set so low, it is no surprise that "....there seems to be a bunch of very successful beeks with TBHs. "


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## shannonswyatt

Could be, but to hear from the some of the folks with Langs you would think they never lost a hive.


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## beemandan

Some folks like Chevys, some Fords and some neither. And many will argue their position until blue in the face. I’m on good terms with several TBH keeps and have absolutely no problem with their choice and absolutely no interest in following their passion.
A few years ago I ran into a TBH keep at a beekeeping meeting. I asked him why he chose to keep his bees in a TBH. He immediately went into a defensive diatribe that quickly expanded into the flaws of Lang beekeeping. I held up my hands, turned and walked away. I never said a word beyond asking the initial question. Later, one of my TBH friends came up to me and said that this same TBH keep had told her that I was opposed to TBH’s.
I cogitated a bit on it and decided that some folks simply have a martyrdom complex…and maybe a few choose an unmainstream beekeeping method as a way of fueling that need. I’m not saying that it is universally true but neither is the idea that most traditional beekeepers really care if you keep your bees in a TBH.


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## shannonswyatt

How true. I've seen the post from TBH beeks that make is seem that Langs are horrid, and I've seen post from traditional beeks on all the problems with TBHs. Live and let live. And keep both!


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## Oldtimer

Agree totally. TBH keepers and Lang keepers are all basically the same humans with the same flaws. 

As a lang keeper I've certainly been critisized harshly ( usually out of ignorance plus views from The Barefoot Beekeeper ), and told it is my langs that have caused all the bees modern problems and TBH's will save bees from extinction. Although I've helped some of these TBH folks set up and supplied the bees for them I can still get treated with condescention.

All the more curious when they run into problems and come back to me for queens or more bees to make up a deadout. After telling me TBH's will save the species it is actually my langs that prop them up.

I've also been embarrassed by overly assertive attacks on TBH's by lang keepers. I might agree with some of the content but the way it is said can sometimes be very wrong.

What I'm saying is we should all just get along. There are fanatics on both sides that's just part of the human condition. Me, I shrug them off, continue to cultivate them as friends if that's what they want, and help out where I can.

Also, there's no special "different" or "superior" knowledge required to run a TBH. Bees are bees.


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## clumsy red bear

I have only met one older beek who was the one who showed me how to catch my swarm (from HIS hives!). He has a big yard, trucks lots of langs everywhere, huge extractors and everything. He was very interested in my TBH, had been reading some articles about them and thought it was cool. He also wants to hire me! I hope others around here are like him, open mind and nice to newbees. Anyway I don't see what the big deal is... I probably will try both styles if I get the money for lang gear sometime. I mean, do the bees really care? I have seen pictures of them building their hive in a BBQ. So, if it really has to do with the beekeeper and what works best for them, I suppose it's like snowboards vs skis and people have a favorite that's all (I like both!). I found out my grandpa who was long gone before I came around kept bees in some kind of horizontal log hive! Dad was a kid, remembers showing his dad a swarm and watched him catch em so I have beek in the blood, top bar style even !!  Grandpa on mom's side also kept bees I think prob langs but the sad story was he begged and begged the neighbor not to spray his fields during the day but he did anyway and killed all his bees. That was before I came around too I think. He had ostriches, a mean apaloosa horse, the hugest friendly hereford bull I've ever seen and lots of other animals, but no bees. Anyway, I am just going to enjoy keeping my little hobby hives of bees and not worry much about what anybody else thinks. Early spring project, I am going to build a tbh for my dad because now he wants to keep em too...


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## Oldtimer

Also as an add on, an experience I sometimes have is going to somebody's place with some bees to install into their newly built TBH. I can tell, if they've read certain lang bashing books or web sites, that they are expecting me to supply weak, chemically poisoned, sickly bees. The surprise on their face can be obvious, when I install lively very active bees, that turn their TBH into a hub of activity with bees coming home with pollen within hours of being installed. And then they call me enthusiastically a few days later to say the bees are building comb and looking good. 

Always get a kick out of that.


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## Riskybizz

I don't think there is any other area in the U.S. that has more TB hive advocates than here in Santa Fe, for reasons that I will not expound upon. Many of the followers are indeed quite defensive regarding the teachings of their guru. You only have to visit any number of TB beekeeping websites to read up on all the virtues of their practice. I have have had the opportunity to chat with a few of them at the local beekeeping meetings (that I rarely attend). If you have ever visited Santa Fe you can well imagine the topics of discussion. I always tell them "thats nice but the bees really don't know the difference"..after that they tend to drift away..


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## Delta Bay

Metropropolis said:


> One could achieve the same with a Skep or a Gum.
> 
> With the bar set so low, it is no surprise that "....there seems to be a bunch of very successful beeks with TBHs. "





> but don't mind them unless they're annoying about it.
> 
> In my neck of the woods, there's a certain precocious self-righteousness characteristic of


Very nice!


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## rmcpb

Got TBH and a long lang. Both types keep bees well and I don't think the bees give two hoots about the hive type they are in. 

Certain level of self rightedness on both sides of the fence.


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## beeman2009

rmcpb said:


> Got TBH and a long lang. Both types keep bees well and I don't think the bees give two hoots about the hive type they are in.
> 
> Certain level of self rightedness on both sides of the fence.


Very well put. I couldn't agree more! :applause:


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## Daniel Y

Metropropolis said:


> One could achieve the same with a Skep or a Gum.
> 
> With the bar set so low, it is no surprise that "....there seems to be a bunch of very successful beeks with TBHs. "


I have seen people make the same claim in regard to Langs.


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## shannonswyatt

This forum needs a "like" button!


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## Oldtimer

Here you go LOL


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## sdharlow

Yeah, the folks at my local beekeeping club gave me that sideways look when I said I was going to start with a TBH. Got all sorts of negative advice. That is why I never joined the club. That kind of negativity is stupid. It also simply gives me incentive to simply go about my business, and prove them wrong. Let them wallow in their ignorance. Do what YOU enjoy. I enjoy being unconventional.


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## Oldtimer

sdharlow said:


> Let them wallow in their ignorance.


sdharlow, I'm guessing you are just starting with bees. The guys you refer to may have been around bees a long time, so how do you know they are ignorant? I'll bet they're not.

Join the club. You will find the practicle help invaluable. Just impress on them that although they consider a TBH an inferior design, you intend to go with that design anyway, but tell them other than that, you would appreciate any help and advice they can give. Having been involved with both hive designs, I can tell you that nearly all bee advice is generic, ie, it pertains to bees regardless opf what shape the box is they live in. 

Main difference is when they are talking about adding supers for the bees to put honey in or prevent swarming, well, you can't do that. You'll just have to shrug your shoulders when it's that time of year.

Sure, some of them will see you as some kind of hippy. Just get used to it, over time you will be accepted as part of the group.


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## Joseph Clemens

I don't regularly maintain TBH's, but am often asked to produce Top Bar Nucleus colonies. I am certainly willing to do it, especially if the customer provides their own Top Bars. I simply place the Top Bars, overnight, between combs in full-size hives. By the next morning the bees have usually grown 2-3 inches of comb, which are also usually laid with eggs. I simply swap these started Top Bar combs for the combs in a Langstroth Nuc, moving the bees onto the Top Bars and moving the Nuc combs into an additional level on other established Langstroth Nucs. If the Top Bars are shorter than 19 inches, I temporarily fasten them to 19 inch long strips of wood. If they're longer I just allow one end to protrude from the Langstroth supers.

If there were any hostility directed at Top Bar beekeeping, I haven't noticed. Though I usually do what I do, without taking notice how others perceive it.


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## Ben Brewcat

Jack London said:


> Do other beekeepers ever criticize or mock you for having a TBH? Just curious how common this experience is.


More the other way around, by a mile.


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## bobbarker

Wow. I've started crusing the TBH section of the site because I'm building a TBH shortly for this spring, to go along with my Langs. I'm more than a little shocked that there is this kind of animosity. Granted, I've only spoken with two beekeepers outside of this site for any length of time, because there isn't a club anywhere near me, but they were both incredibly helpful, and neither one said boo about the prospect of running a TBH. In fact, one of them (who works at my "local" Dadant), lamented the fact that they didn't carry any TBH items (bars, followers, hives, etc.)

I suppose it's likely I'll encounter someone more difficult to avoid than pressing the back button on my browser in this matter, but I suppose when I do, I'll just tell them the truth. I did it because I thought it would be fun, and because I wanted to see bees do it a different way. Not hurting anyone.


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## cerezha

Interesting. In my case,bees dictate what they like. I started with KTBH because it sounded much more natural than old Lang. Also, it was different and I love to build. So, bees ignored my beautiful hand-made KTBH! I was shocked. OK, I offered to them the Lang opportunity... They did not want to expand vertically as well. We (me and bees) ended up on hybrid between TBH and Lang - horizontal double-Lang deep box. Girls love it! It has 20 deep frames max horizontally and may be expanded vertically as well (another 20 frames). It has many advantages of TBH - less invasive inspections etc. and standard Lang's deep frames. It is heavy, but I do not need to move it. So far - bees love it! 

I personally do not care what others think about me and my bees. At the same time, I noticed that my bee-club members mostly are very conservative and do not approve "other ways". I stop visiting the club since they are all about chemical treatments for the bees. I think Lang is good for commercial beekeeping. For hobbyist? - I think everything is good as long as YOU are happy and bees ARE happy. To me KTBH has obvious advantages vs Lang, but my bees think differently. Sergey


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## standman

It seems to be all about leadership. TBHs have a kind of celebrity status right now in our area. When I decided to build one last year, I built two and gave one to our club president. He had great success with the swarm he installed in it, and his positive remarks at our club meeting have set a tone of acceptance. He even asked me to do a presentation at a club meeting on TBHs. I think the position most people take, including the tone of their comments, is a reflection of the "leader" they are following as much as anything.


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## Oldtimer

The leader, or, the book or website.

I think a lot of the problems started out with a TBH book that spends the first 50 pages, plus most of the rest of the book, pouring vitriol on langstroth hives. Which is a shame because although he is a convincing writer, some of his basic facts are not even correct. Gullible minds who have not yet experienced real bees, read this book, and then tell people like me I've got it all wrong. Hear enough of this and you start feeling like reacting.

Shame this divisive crap was even published because nearly all beeks are basically good folks. Lots of beekeeping books have been written pretty much using langstroth methods, I have yet to see anything in one of them critisising TBH's. But it seems to be kind of fashionable for some TBH literature to devote a lot of energy to critisizing everybody else. Very destructive, if they want to talk TBH's, they should talk TBH's.

I'm not saying this attitude applies to the average TBH keeper, it's mostly book and web authors. But when you see this garbage in print, don't allow yourself to be influenced.

What Langstroth invented / re-invented / popularised, was movable comb hives. As such, he is the father of both the modern langstroth hive, and the modern top bar hive. The roots of the modern TBH are not in ancient Egypt. A version of modern TBH's were first built by a team of Canadian aid workers in Africa, who had langstroth hives at home and thought up a easy to make moveable comb hive that could be cheaply built by Africans, to avoid the then practise of killing all the bees to get the honey.

We should all just get along.


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## Metropropolis

Given the thread drift, readers may find the following interesting. It deals with many of the issues discussed:


An analysis of the Kenyan Top Bar Hive in Calgary Alberta.pdf


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## shannonswyatt

Metropropolis said:


> Given the thread drift, readers may find the following interesting. It deals with many of the issues discussed:
> 
> 
> An analysis of the Kenyan Top Bar Hive in Calgary Alberta.pdf


I'm surprised that human beings don't have a higher than 30 percent failure rate in the winter up there. There is a reason that the vast majority of Canadians live within 50 miles of a US border, it is cold up there!

And I think that someone who pays $300 for a top bar should invest the cash in some tools, or just purchase Langs. I can get several Langs for $300.


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## Rader Sidetrack

shannonswyatt said:


> And I think that someone who pays $300 for a top bar should invest the cash in some tools, or just purchase Langs. I can get several Langs for $300.


I build my own equipment, both TBHs and Langs. But $300 for a TBH (depending on the wood used, possibly) isn't really out of line. Just take a look at this Beesource banner advertiser offering *cedar *Lang hives:
http://www.evanscedarbeehives.com/buy-complete-hives.html

$150 for a "complete" hive (with 2 deeps and 2 mediums), less frames, and their Pierco frames add another $95. That $245 without any "accessories", which brings the total comparable to the $300 TBH.


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## Metropropolis

shannonswyatt said:


> And I think that someone who pays $300 for a top bar should invest the cash in some tools, or just purchase Langs. I can get several Langs for $300.


Calgary is an affluent city, and a lot of the top bar interest has been driven by a bee-trepreneur who also happens to sell top bar hives. 

In fairness, they are nice, not junkyard specials.

A few do build their own, but for fun, not out of necessity or economics.


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## shannonswyatt

I always forget about the cost of frames in a Lang! True, if you compare apples to apples, assembled to assembled, the Lang can get expensive.


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## Metropropolis

Rader Sidetrack said:


> $150 for a "complete" hive (with 2 deeps and 2 mediums), less frames, and their Pierco frames add another $95. That $245 without any "accessories", which brings the total comparable to the $300 TBH.


Only comparable if you ignore the elements of hive capacity and comb re-usability.


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## mike haney

"... I enjoy being unconventional..."
i would posit many who champion TBH's not only enjoy being unconventional but also controversial. not everyone that uses TBH's is like that of course,and even less "champion" their use above all others, but once one has to endure a diatribe from a promoter,often they have little patience for another round.


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## shannonswyatt

Metropropolis said:


> A few do build their own, but for fun, not out of necessity or economics.


For me playing with the tools is one of the best parts of the hobby. But I detest painting.


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## Riskybizz

> $150 for a "complete" hive (with 2 deeps and 2 mediums), less frames, and their Pierco frames add another $95. That $245 without any "accessories", which brings the total comparable to the $300 TBH. 

That seems qute hight to me. When I buy my equipment deeps are now $12.00 ea. a med. shallow is $9.00, cedar bottom board $4.00, top around $14.00, and 30 new frames with ritecell foundation would be around $1.66 each. Added up that comes to $100.00 for a complete setup. What other accessories are you referring to? And since when is a "complete hive" considered to be 2 deeps and 2 mediums?


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## shannonswyatt

I think he was comparing fully assembled, because I was thinking the same thing too.


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## tommysnare

im a second year beekeeper and this year im making arrangements to dive in deeper into beekeeping. adding at least 10 to my yard. i worked with one for about a year and a half and have been studying and researching all things beekeeping...im in love with it. and u better believe im going to have both langs and tbh's. why not ? the benefits to both are good enough to use both. not to mention how standard langs are in the industry....with every part and piece know to the beek. with that being said...give the tbh a few years and it will be standardized as well. tbh's produce wonderful product for the comb customer and langs are great producers of drawable honey,pollen,queens,propilis etc. runem both.


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## shannonswyatt

I'm not so sure we will see any standardization soon. At this point there is nothing close to agreement as to what the proper size for a top bar hive. It would take a manufacture to start producing top bar hives and selling oodles of them. It's not that it couldn't happen, but the fact that it has not happened yet means there most not be much of a profit motive by the bigger manufacturers, or agreement on dimensions. As a manufacturer they may be a disincentive since it would not likely be patent-able diminishing your returns. Also remember, we use the term Lang when speaking of a box hive with frames, but in England they use a lot of National hives, whereas in the states we tend to use Dadant, and there are other variants as well. The wonderful thing about standards, there a so many of them!


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## Daniel Y

Keep in mind that the TBH was developed for third world conditions where manufacturing does not exist and standardization was not a consideration. possible and affordable where. It is a hive design meant to just be thrown together from whatever is at hand. The Lang on the other had was designed with standardization as a key feature. They are two very different designs that serve two very different purposes. they both keep bees. I don't see the TBH ever fitting the needs of large scale beekeepers. They are great for the hobbyist just wanting to enjoy their bees. A real problems exists when trying to support a TBH from Commercial resources. I prefer to start hives form nucs rather than packages. That is difficult when all that is available is lang style nucs. So far the only bees I have in TBH's are swarms I captured. A good alternative for them as far it goes for me. I like them as drone producing hives as well. easy to access the brood nest and monitor what matters in that case. Lots of fun if you want to have a reason to fiddle with the bees more often. conducive to learning. Not so much when you no longer need all that additional "Experience".

Anyway I see them as two different hives for two different reasons with two different expectations. and they both do what they are supposed to do well.


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## shannonswyatt

+1


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## tommysnare

very great points by people much more experienced than myself. i can honestly say that these forums are great and i take all of the knowledge and experience serious. thanks very much all of you.


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## rhaldridge

Oldtimer said:


> The leader, or, the book or website.
> 
> I think a lot of the problems started out with a TBH book that spends the first 50 pages, plus most of the rest of the book, pouring vitriol on langstroth hives. Which is a shame because although he is a convincing writer, some of his basic facts are not even correct. Gullible minds who have not yet experienced real bees, read this book, and then tell people like me I've got it all wrong. Hear enough of this and you start feeling like reacting.
> 
> .


What book was that?


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## Oldtimer

The book i had in mind was The Barefoot Beekeeper, which I own. What dissapointed me most is the book, compared to say, Wyatt Manguns top bar book, is lightweight on actual useful info re top bar beekeeping. But instead at every turn heaps critisism on other hive designs and methods, and even worse, much of the critisisms are based on wrong information and false assumptions. The author claims he was once a commercial beekeeper, based on the level knowledge he displays in the book I would be interested to know how he actually survived.

But the most vitriolic stuff of all would be on some web sites I've read, and as a result of this there are quite a few TBH keepers who genuinely think that TBH's are the only ethical way to keep bees, everybody else is ignorant. So sad.

I was reluctant to name the book but did, as I was asked. If this is not appropriate moderator please delete.


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## manbee

The only wrong thing in beekeeping is not enough of us try different things in keeping bees. I have TBH . I have run double queen lang and have gone and made back to back hives and run supers up the middle. twice as many bees to make a the h0ney. In short nothing is right or wrong in beekeeping Do what ever stings your brain into action..


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## cerezha

shannonswyatt said:


> ....
> And I think that someone who pays $300 for a top bar should invest the cash in some tools, or just purchase Langs. I can get several Langs for $300.


 It is not simply right:
- Lang require much more skilled labor (joint fingers, perfect square etc)
- you are trying to compare already assembled TBH with unassembled Lang 
- I would re-phrase your sentence: "I can get several Lang * boxes * for $300"
- you do not count frames, foundation etc for the Lang...
- I built my TBH for $50 including everything. The whole point of TBH is that it is cheap.
- I would never buy $300 TBH.
Sergey


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## rhaldridge

Oldtimer said:


> The book i had in mind was The Barefoot Beekeeper, which I own. What dissapointed me most is the book, compared to say, Wyatt Manguns top bar book, is lightweight on actual useful info re top bar beekeeping.


I haven't read that one. I've read Les Crowder's book and Christy Hemenway's, as well as the section in Michael Bush's big book pertaining to TBHs. In none of them could I detect any animus toward conventional equipment.


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## shannonswyatt

Yes, when I was doing the math in my head I wasn't thinking about the frames and foundation. I always for get those, and they do add up when you start adding boxes. You could could get everything for a single hive for under $200, assuming you were thinking 4 deeps (hope you have a strong back!). My point was that if you are using top bar hives as a way to _save money_ you have to build them yourself, otherwise of you may as well run Langs. The commercial hives that I've seen online are much nicer than what I have built, and some are made from premium lumber, so I understand the premium cost. Plus they have a lot more over head than me and my Skil Saw.

At this point I wouldn't pay a whole lot for a top bar hive, but I do think that I'm going to start purchasing the bars. I don't have a table saw and they are pretty much a pain to make without one. I did make about 150 or so a few months back with a built in wedge with my Skil Saw and some home made jigs, but it was very labor intensive. I shouldn't need anymore bars this year unless I do very well with swarms traps (which I doubt I will).


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## shannonswyatt

Oldtimer said:


> The book i had in mind was The Barefoot Beekeeper, which I own. What dissapointed me most is the book, compared to say, Wyatt Manguns top bar book, is lightweight on actual useful info re top bar beekeeping.


I've e-mailed Phil via YouTube on a video and he seems like a good guy. There are a lot of folks with strong opinions on all things bees, and some show a lot of passion on the subject. Phil's how to build a TBH PDF as probably been used by more folks to get started with TBH's than probably any other single resource, and I'm willing to cut him some slack. There are a lot of folks with bees pointing fingers in lots of directions with passion today. I don't have a clue as to what has caused all the problems with bees, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the boxes themselves. 

Wyatt's book is very detailed on the construction of his his hives, and has more photos than a National Geographic magazine! I also Les Crowder's book and Christy Hemenway's books as well. I really like the way that comb management was illustrated in Les's book. I read Christy's book as an e-book, so it was black and white. It may have come across better on paper. I would like to see Wyatt edit his book back to a much smaller and affordable so that more people would get a chance to read it. I would buy that book too!


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## cerezha

shannonswyatt said:


> ... My point was that if you are using top bar hives as a way to _save money_ you have to build them yourself, otherwise of you may as well run Langs. ...


 TBH mainly used by hobbyists who do not count every penny... I think that the main reason why TBHs become popular is that TBH is offering more "natural" way of beekeeping. Based on numerous posts many people successfully use TBH. I do not understand this annoying comparison between TBH and Lang. Many different beehive designs had been invented and many designs are successful. For instance, Rose beehive and Japanese national beehive. Why only Lang? Sergey


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## shannonswyatt

Yes, we can always justify speeding money on a hobby! 

You should run the hive you want to run. I hadn't heard of the Japanese National, going to check that out.


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## cerezha

shannonswyatt said:


> ... I hadn't heard of the Japanese National, going to check that out.


 Sort of Warre but without movable frames at least in the supers. Honeycomb essentially continued from one box to another. They use steel string to separate the boxes and extract from the entire box - I saw on youtube. I do not remember how they extract. Rose - crush-and-strain entire box. Sergey


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## shannonswyatt

I just checked out the Japanese on YouTube. Pretty neat, but not sure if it would be legal in the states since it doesn't have movable comb. I'm wondering if Warre was inspired by that design.


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## Oldtimer

shannonswyatt said:


> I don't have a clue as to what has caused all the problems with bees, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the boxes themselves!


 Agreed, it's not the shape of the box. The science behind this idea is almost akin to medievil witchcraft, it's another ridiculous theory propagated by Phil Chandler. Properly done science tells us the common element in many bee afflictions is varroa mites. Where they are present in large numbers the bees are increasingly vulnerable to other afflictions. See -

*B Dainat, J D. Evans, Y P Chen, L Gauthier, P Neumann (2012) Predictive Markers of Honey Bee Colony Collapse. PLoS ONE 7(2): e32151. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0032151*
Abstract
_ Across the Northern hemisphere, managed honey bee colonies, Apis mellifera, are currently affected by abrupt
depopulation during winter and many factors are suspected to be involved, either alone or in combination. Parasites and pathogens are considered as principal actors, in particular the ectoparasitic mite Varroa destructor, associated viruses and the microsporidian Nosema ceranae. Here we used long term monitoring of colonies and screening for eleven disease agents and genes involved in bee immunity and physiology to identify predictive markers of honeybee colony losses during winter. The data show that DWV, Nosema ceranae, Varroa destructor and Vitellogenin can be predictive markers for winter colony losses, but their predictive power strongly depends on the season.* In particular, the data support that V. destructor is a key player for losses, arguably in line with its specific impact on the health of individual bees and colonies*._
For more detailed info please see the whole study a useful read.

And of course, what's caused the spread of varroa mites, is people moving hives all over the place, within countries, and from one country to another. They did not magically appear because of the shape of the box. People have kept bees in many shapes of box for thousands of years. What's new, is the globalisation of beekeeping with bees and queens being shipped on mass around the planet.




shannonswyatt said:


> Phil's how to build a TBH PDF as probably been used by more folks to get started with TBH's than probably any other single resource!


In my opinion the hive is to small. Everybody I know who has used it has found it problematic, and either built a bigger TBH and transferred the bees, or moved away from TBH's altogether going Warre or Lang. The small size, certainly in my area, means the bees use the whole hive as a brood area and store little removable honey but instead swarm constantly, and I mean many times through the season.



shannonswyatt said:


> Wyatt's book is very detailed on the construction of his his hives, and has more photos than a National Geographic magazine! I also Les Crowder's book and Christy Hemenway's books as well. I really like the way that comb management was illustrated in Les's book. I read Christy's book as an e-book, so it was black and white. It may have come across better on paper. I would like to see Wyatt edit his book back to a much smaller and affordable so that more people would get a chance to read it. I would buy that book too!


Very pleased you find these books OK I have not read the Crowder or Christy book myself, but trust that your endorsement means they do not sour things by bashing other methods.


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## shannonswyatt

Christy list Phil as a mentor in her book, and you can tell that based on her management style with Top Bar Hives (not that anything is wrong with that). I think I liked Les's book better mainly because I don't prefer the center entrance method, but that is just me. I also think that the way they illustratated comb management was clearer, but that may have just been because I read Christy's book on the iPad, and the graphics were black and white on the iPad. I guess they do that so they can be viewed properly on Kindles and Nooks.


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## Oldtimer

I am sure many consider him to be their mentor. If so, whatever works for them. 

My only beef with Phil is he is rather closed minded to any way other than his way. I still haven't worked out if he is really that closed minded as a person, or if it's just a stance he's taken in his book to boost sales.


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## OdieB

Yes, I've had some guys act very smug and dismissive. On the other hand, I've met some really cool people that like both TBH's and Langs. I wouldn't want to hang out with the guys that are critical anyway.


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## Calvin King

Wow, there have been a lot of post for such a young forum.

I am a member of a young bee club. It is only two years old and most members are new to beekeeping with only a few long-term keepers. Yes there was some negativity for a while. However last year at one point, we had 5 or 6 people with TBH’s. I am the only one still attending meetings. Is it because of some made them feel inferior? I don’t know. I am still hanging in there and next month I have been asked to be the club speaker. Why? I have paid my dues. How? Two ways

1.	It was said at club meeting many times, “There is money in beekeeping. Your money!” Shannonswyatt wrote: “Yes, we can always justify speeding money on a hobby!” I am able to say that I have less than $20 in first two hives. Right now I have the parts cut for six more hive in the back of the truck. Those have cost nothing so far. I will use the left over glue and screws to put them together, so maybe these six will cost me another $20. I got a lot more than $20 in honey last year.
2.	I not only still have my original two colonies, I have managed to add one. Entering the third year with no losses. I know my time is coming when I will lose colonies. I know of no other in our club that can say that. I know that it is pure luck and some really good bees, but it does help my credibility.

I am sure that all the smirking is not over and I might get dumped on during the Q&A at the next meeting, but I don’t think so. I enjoy the company of my fellow beekeepers, so I can take what comes.


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## Cub

I built two oak top bar hives, because they seemed easy to build and I have a pile of oak 1x12s. A friend is giving me two old langs, and I couldn't be more excited about getting to try and have experience with both. No preaching about the 'right way' coming from this direction. Who are these "passionate" blowhards being so negative?


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## Daniel Y

Cub said:


> No preaching about the 'right way' coming from this direction. Who are these "passionate" blowhards being so negative?


Because they think that others doing it their way makes them right.

Like those here that think if they can insult you you it makes them right. People do some strange things. and many follow right along. It's how we end up with politicians being chosen. Very few people are genuinely intelligent. It takes to much effort.


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## shannonswyatt

Well, I think that they were taught to keep bees a certain way and because of that, it becomes the only way that will work in there eyes. In reality it isn't hostility (generally) from folks, it is more of a general "that won't work mentality". But I would say most of them are well meaning, they are just trying to point out that we don't know what we are doing. I will agree that I have a lot to learn, but you learn from trying, and I'm trying several ways. Hopefully I learn more that way!


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## LadySteelsheen

I'm a second year beek. I run horizontal hives, they each hold 20 lang frames with the "tabs" cut off nailed to top bars. I can put another 20 frames on in supers, which is nice. I made them myself from a lot of stuff that I already had around, only had to buy hardware and frames. I thought when I built them that it looked easy to manage, and frankly I couldn't afford langs, and the finger joints made them too difficult to build. I've met with a lot of negativity from my local "mentor" assigned by the beekeeping club. But I've had another local beek be supportive. I think it depends on the person. I had people tell me I wouldn't get any honey, or that I'd have so many problems with cross comb that I'd give up, thatthey won't overwinter in my climate, that the bees won't build horizontally. I figure, in the wild bees don't build exclusively in vertical tree cavities. Clearly I don't have the experience of some to fall back on, and my hives didn't make the winter, but it seems to me that was a combination of bad dumb luck, and bad dumb management inch: (one died earlier in the year, the queen just never started laying, one was from a late small swarm, became queenless late, and never really got going well enough to overwinter.) trying again this year with the same horizontal hives. I would like very much to try a standard top bar as well as a standard lang, just to see the differences. I think that there is something to be learned from all of them, and personal preference makes a lot of difference to what you end up using. It is frustrating though when the only experienced beeks in your immediate area will hardly even speak to you because you've chosen to run a non standard hive.


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## Oldtimer

Re the overwintering issues, the reason given why long hives may not winter as well in a cold climate, is that the cluster can have trouble moving along sideways to new combs to get honey, whereas in a vertical hive, moving up the combs is easier for them. I'll bet that's why you've been told they won't winter as well, and there is some truth to it. So, next winter just be aware, and in your set up, you may need to check from time to time and if need be move some honey towards and in contact with the cluster.
If things are super cold and the bees lethargic, they may not even uncap the honey when you move it so scratch a few cappings just to give them the idea.

Hey if you want to build your own lang boxes, don't mess with finger joints just do rebated joints. That's all I have and they are strong and totally adequate.


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## KMP

Oldtimer said:


> [...]the cluster can have trouble moving along sideways to new combs to get honey, whereas in a vertical hive, moving up the combs is easier for them.


What sort of trouble and why?

-K


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## Rader Sidetrack

> Hey if you want to build your own lang boxes, don't mess with finger joints just do *rebated *joints.

We learned from previous _Oldtimer_ posts that _rebated _joints is an alternate term for _dado _joints.  (In the US, _rebate _commonly refers to a discount or partial refund when purchasing a product.)

Here is a rebate (dado) joint, although this illustration is a T joint. In a hive corner dado joint the uppermost end of the T would not be there.
​








My Lang hives are made with dado joints, and they are certainly adequate for hives. Obviously you need good glue - Titebond II or III is recommended - and often there are staple, nail or screw fasteners as well.


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## KMP

A "corner/edge dado" is a rabbet (American English for "rebate").

-K


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## Oldtimer

Oops thanks Radar, I'll have to work on improving my American. 

You have a remarkable memory by the way!! 

Or as per KMP, it's probably my faulty English, I did think of it when I wrote it but just went ahead bad grammar and all.

Re- a cluster moving sideways-


KMP said:


> What sort of trouble and why?


When it's cold, the cluster is in a roundish shape with bees tight on the outside. To move along a comb in a one box high long hive, they may have to break cluster and walk around the edge and to the next comb. If it's just too cold, they won't, and they starve, and this does happen. Moving up the existing comb, much less of a problem. Or even to a comb in the next box above, can be accessed without them having to break cluster so is achievable even in extreme conditions.

By the way, in a two box vertical hive, the cluster is much more likely to be able to move sideways. This is because between the two boxes there will be gaps that will be closer to mid cluster, that the bee cluster can move sideways through without having to break cluster. (Depending on just where the cluster is positioned, doesn't always hold true).

However I'm not wanting to turn this into a discussion of long vs vertical hives, just answering the question, plus hoping this will help people with long hives understand the issues and be able to achieve better wintering. And yes, I have some long hives myself, not for honey production though.


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## shannonswyatt

+1 on Titebond III. That stuff is incredible. Never really understood the difference for the bees moving back versus up. I do understand it in a wall were they may have a single uninterrupted piece of comb that is 6 or 8 feet long, mostly what I have seen in structures is comb laid out more like that in a top bar, with row after row of comb that is 6 or 8 _inches _deep, and they move back further into the stores as the winter progresses. Seem that moving up through the comb in a lang means crossing gaps between the boxes. That may not be a big deal though. I do know that bees will chew through the comb to get direct access to the next bar of comb though.


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## shannonswyatt

Oldtimer said:


> Oops thanks Radar, I'll have to work on improving my American.


Is it pronounced rabbit down there? I don't think I knew that it was spelled rabbet until I was in my 40's. Never understood why a rodent would prefer one joint to another.


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## Oldtimer

Yes I've thought about it, I forgot the education I received in that thread Radar mentioned, it's all my bad English.

Rabbet, rabbet, rabbet!!

Actually in my own defence , in my first beekeeping job, we cut the boxes ourselves. Everybody I worked with pronounced the rabbet, as rebate. I think as a young guy that was probably ingrained into my psyche, and is the source of my on-going diction problems, LOL


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## shannonswyatt

I think that is the English way of saying it, at least according to Wikipedia. Well, at least that is the way it is spelled.


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## DrDoorlock

Look out for one more group If you are getting rude or "down their nose" comments, check to see if the person makes money from the sale of supplies or has a lot of money tied up in Langstroth hives. The reason I started out with TBH is to avoid a LOT of expense. I can see how some would have angst about us getting honey without spending all that money or buying supplies from them. I will be cleanly ready for honey, hive, books and equipment for under $150. That's less than a starter kit and it's final. Langstroth produces a LOT of honey. TBH makes enough to enjoy and is good for the bees. We each must choose and many who would run us down are just snobs.


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## Oldtimer

I think there might be "snobs" of all beekeeping varieties LOL

But most beekeepers are just plain old garden variety beekeepers. Even ones with langs, are not necessarily evil.


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## Wyvern

I quit going to the county bee keepers meeting when one fellow almost fainted over the fact that I had put bees I bought from him in a top bar hive. He went on and on about how I was making a mistake, and I was causing problems for other area bee keepers with my no treatment bee having!


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## ositolud

I am a first year beek and have yet to actually get any bees. 
the only negativity I have received so far was from the local bee supply store. I was told I was not smart for considering tbh (I had not yet decided which way to go, yet) and was shown a hive said to be a tbh in their showroom that was not doing well. As I did research I learned it was actually a demonstration langstroth that they had thrown top bars in and then had treated as a regular langstroth, not touching it again for some time. By the time they got back around to it the bees had cross combed and glued everything together into a large mess. 
As for the local beekeeping group, I actually followed plans provided on their website to build my TBH's. I have mentioned them once in meetings (there have only been two meetings so far since I joined in January) and while most there ignored my questions I think it was more because they had not clue how to answer them instead of some deeply hidden animosity. My only worry is that I have had problems finding someone to show me the ropes for keeping a tbh in my area and so am going to be flying by the seat of my pants here in about four weeks.


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## tommysnare

ositolud said:


> My only worry is that I have had problems finding someone to show me the ropes for keeping a tbh in my area and so am going to be flying by the seat of my pants here in about four weeks.


i fu really have no support or mentor especially for the TBH...i personally would recommend starting with langs. im not against tbh's and we are putting our swarms/cutouts in them this year. but, my point is that you are entirely new to such a stewardship that it could almost certainly be tragic with out A) support or a mentor and or B)experience in beekeeping. trust me...this is yr 3 for us and we learn every day what NOT to do hahaha. just go with what is readily available instead of turning ur new passion into a tragic statistic 


just lookin out...because we need more backyard beeks.


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## shannonswyatt

My guess is no one had a TBH. I demonstrated how they worked and the first question was how do you put in foundation. When I mentioned they work like a foundationless Lang the president felt the need to explain that as most people there didn't know that you could have a hive without foundation.


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## Ramona

shannonswyatt said:


> My guess is no one had a TBH. I demonstrated how they worked and the first question was how do you put in foundation. When I mentioned they work like a foundationless Lang the president felt the need to explain that as most people there didn't know that you could have a hive without foundation.[/QUOTE)
> 
> We were inspecting a hive on a blueberry orchard (unsprayed) when a beekeeping friend came by to pick berries. In her 25 years of beekeeping she had never seen a foundationless frame and was amazed that it is possible. She was very excited to see the naturally drawn comb. I have also been questioned by an extremely reknowned researcher as to how my bees draw foundationless small cell comb. To this day I don't know exactly what the researcher was trying to understand as I can't imagine they haven't seen comb in the wild. Maybe it was a small cell thing...
> 
> Ramona


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## KMP

I'm sure it's been mentioned elsewhere on this site, but rather than listening to skeptical suppliers who have no experience with TBHs, pick up a copy of Mangum's book: Top-bar Hive Beekeeping. I myself have only seen excerpts, but people whose opinion I trust and respect have given it good ratings. (Not to get too far OT, though.)

That said, it is helpful at first to have some experienced around. But today one can also get a lot of help online (certainly here, I think). Maybe you can ask at your beekeeping group if there might be someone who's a got of bit of curiousity about such things that might be willing to look in on you as needed.

-Kevin


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## Oldtimer

Second that, the only TBH book you should read.


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## Life is Good!

Yes, our Intro to beekeeping class from local forest preserve is run by a renowned Lang expert starting in 1933! So he's been around a while. In over 18hrs worth of classes, he allowed a whole whopping 12 minutes for a speaker to describe TBH methods and showing the speaker's empty swarm hive. Unfortunately, the expert didn't understand how many folks were interested in this method - during break 2/3 of the class was surrounding the speaker with questions...and again after class....and the speaker was asked for his personal information from over 1/2 of those interested. Thankfully, he's a local beek teacher and is happy to share his information with all. 

Seems to me there's enough local interest to conduct classes!


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## Daniel Y

Maybe the class needs to be restructured with one full day devoted to TBH. that way those interested can attend and those not can go tend to langs? Put some hands on to their class time.


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## brettj777

I went to my first BeeKeeper meeting last month in SE Wis here. Walked in an saw a beautiful cedar TBH sitting there. One of the "well seasoned" members had made it, but adapted it for supers also. They still talk about TBH's as if they were alien technology but it was nice to see I wasnt the only one trying them out.

I was chatted up by a couple members and they offered great general bee advice and never hinted at anti-TBH sentiments 

But this is the Midwest...we are some of the nicest people you will meet!


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## honeybeebee

I have always used langs.....haven't even seen a tbh ....I'm old but still open minded ( what's left of it  might try one ...tough to do a split from langs to tbh ? ...and where one puts their purchased bees is no ones elses concern....coat them with chocolate and eat them.....they are yours......mmmmm....nice venom buzz


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## beeman2009

honeybeebee said:


> I have always used langs.....haven't even seen a tbh ....I'm old but still open minded ( what's left of it  might try one ...tough to do a split from langs to tbh ?


Try using a TTBH. Build it to lang size. See Michael Bush's site for more info.


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## rhaldridge

honeybeebee said:


> I have always used langs.....haven't even seen a tbh ....I'm old but still open minded ( what's left of it  might try one ...tough to do a split from langs to tbh ? ...and where one puts their purchased bees is no ones elses concern....coat them with chocolate and eat them.....they are yours......mmmmm....nice venom buzz


There might be more than one way to do a split from Lang to TBH. I've thought about fastening top bars to the underside of frames, letting the bees build some comb, and then transferring the bars. I've also seen video of Sam Comfort shaking bees into a package box, then putting a queen in a cage in the box, and using this home-made package to repopulate a TBH.


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## shannonswyatt

Some folks have done cutouts to TBHs, but pretty much everyone that has done it doesn't recommend it. Why not just a shaken split (make your own package of bees). If you go that route make sure to have a closed bottom as they may abscond otherwise. I recommend that you make your bars 19 inches by 1 3/8 and then you could put a few bars in a few hives to get them to pull out some comb for you.


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## Oldtimer

shannonswyatt said:


> Why not just a shaken split (make your own package of bees).


Yes that's exactly what I do when I'm setting up TBH's for people. Far less drama than messing with cutting combs etc. I just make sure their TBH has properly set up comb guides and a sensible method for feeding (if that's needed), and the bees will have the first combs built within a day or two and be on their way to a hassle free install.

If they are new beeks I only do local & install the bees myself to make sure it all works out.


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## shannonswyatt

Oldtimer said:


> Yes that's exactly what I do when I'm setting up TBH's for people.


Brilliant minds think alike!


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## Solomon Parker

Very interesting and enlightening thread.

I've never criticized anyone for TBHs. I'd really like to try one some day but for the time being they're just not utilitarian enough for me.

What about the non-treating aspect of TBHs? Anybody get criticized for that?


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## shannonswyatt

That is a whole other thread! You don' t have to run TBH's to be criticized for that.


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## tommysnare

we have our first TBH goin now for about 2 weeks and we love it ! i really do think its a better way to raise bees...FOR THE bees sake. but for not its not all that commercially possible YET. i think its a matter of time. one thing i am very certain about is that every one at the markets we will be selling at this season will definitely be seeing TBH;s up close and we'll be offering them for sale as well. the people in our town are soo taken aback by it. it just looks soo easy to work with they say. and i really do think it is easier to deal with for the back yarder.


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## Solomon Parker

shannonswyatt said:


> That is a whole other thread! You don' t have to run TBH's to be criticized for that.


With you there. No need to run off topic, just curious.


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## Solomon Parker

By the way, Sam Comfort is at the Big Bee Buzz in Tulsa this weekend. Check it out.


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## tomofreno

Yes. The president of the local bee club dedicated a meeting to railing against tbh's, and passed out an article that was critical of them (which had some misinformation in it). I took a class offered by a local beekeeper and he said tbh's don't work, the bees die in the winter because they "can't move up." A bee supplier told me the same, said I would have to buy bees every spring.

That was my first year, just after I made my first tbh's. Well, they made it through the winter with an about 1 1/2 week cold spell with lows around 4 F, high around 20 F, and are quite strong this spring. Lot of folks with Langs lost colonies. 'Course there are many more Langs around so that doesn't say there were proportionately more lost. Don't think anyone knows the cause for sure, though some blame the cold snap.

I can see why the suppliers would be against tbh's, cuts into their sales of hive kits, since tbh's are easy to make yourself. The others I think may just have an aversion to anything new and different. Plus the club president has no experience with tbh's, so maybe he feels that threatens his position as the expert. All this is just bull to me. I don't care what anyone uses. Its all interesting to me, and I'm ready to cooperate with and help anyone. Why would I care what hive they use? I think its good to keep on experimenting and testing.


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## odfrank

Beekeeping beliefs are like religious beliefs, but so far there is less killing each other over them.


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## stan.vick

odfrank said:


> Beekeeping beliefs are like religious beliefs, but so far there is less killing each other over them.


 I posted earlier in this thread and have since contacted my state bee inspector to ask about selling some nucs next spring. I explained that I have treatment free bees ( four years mite treatment free. ) He was nice but very skeptical and told me that Ga. law requires that I treat them before offering them for sale . He then asked what stock bee I had, I explained that they were survivor bees, he said they recommended against keeping survivor bees.Then I mentioned that I would place them in deep langs after converting them from top bar hives. I also stated that the langs would be foundationless. I think I may have heard a gasp and a period of silence.
I won't go into the back and forth frustrated conversation that continued for an hour. I felt sorry for the guy I am sure for him I was the phone call from hell. He did offer many reasons why it all wouldn't work and predicted that one day a disease would suddenly wipe all my bees out. But to his credit we worked it out and I will call for an inspection this fall after I treat with Apivar for mites. He understands that my top bar parent hives will be kept a good distance from my langs and the top bar will not be treated and the langs will be treated and they will not be mixed, and only the treated bees will be sold. Under the circumstances I felt he did a great job, maybe I will learn a lot from him and he might change his opinion about top bar hives, well we can hope.


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## hpm08161947

odfrank said:


> Beekeeping beliefs are like religious beliefs, but so far there is less killing each other over them.


Yes... something along the lines of "Saharia".


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## HappyBeeing

The brand new hello I just posted mentions this theme!It makes for a sad lack of local mentors. I DO know Lang folks can give lots of good general experienced knowledge to ponder though,too.....at least.


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## Daniel Y

shannonswyatt said:


> That is a whole other thread! You don' t have to run TBH's to be criticized for that.


Yeah well, what the other guy said. actually I find I am eventually criticized for just about anything I do with bees. usually by the person that gave the advice in the first place. I simply look to the bees about how to keep them. Treat them when they get sick and just figure it's everyone elses fault. my bees will no longer need treatment when they stop making my healthy bees sick with their sick bees.

Back to the topic. my TBH is still not doing well. it does hang on though. it never has done well. I put a swarm in it last June and it just puttered along all summer. now it has a brood nest about the size of a gold ball and barely enough bees to cover that. but the queen is right their still hanging on.

I have found one reason to make the effort to get this hive up and running. and that is it is very convenient to monitor as to the seasonal activities of the bees. The activities of a TBH are somewhat indicative of what would be going on in a lang.

I am not sure I take a comment that bees want anything form a beekeeper that never gave them any other choice. I say bees want to expand. I have not idea of what their preference in direction is. I just did a cut out from a long tall pillar. much like a lang hive would be. according to the position of the cluster in that colony they would not be moving up. They where at the top and in fact would have had to have moved down to go anywhere.


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## eukofios

I am new to beekeeping and new to this forum. Over the past year, I've been reading beekeeping books, watching videos, watching youtube videos, and I attended beekeeping classes given by three different local experts.

I went with a kenyan top bar hive because it looked less complicated to me. I have sprained my back a number of times in the past and I don't want to do that again if I can avoid it. Then I had abdominal surgery for stomach cancer, and so my abdominals are not that strong either. Until this year I thought I was as strong as an ox, but not now. I don't really care what other people use, and I know that all of the popular methods actually work as far as producing some honey and giving the bees a place to set up a hive, which is all I am interested in. I like working with nature, animals and plants.

After reading in a number of places about controversies regarding hive type, I wondered if biases would cloud any advice I got. I went to the local beekeeping club, once, but it was so formalized as a meeting, and I felt like I didn't learn anything. So I've been depending on the books and internet to learn. At one of the classes I went to about top bar beekeeping, the teacher seemed to downplay the top bar hives, expecially Kenyan top bar hive, which I thought was odd because he sells them, along with Warre and Langstroth hives and equipment. At the other class i went to, the instructor was more enthusiastic about the Kenyantop bar hive, but did not commit as to what he liked better, and he also sells all three types.

Over the winter I built a kenyan top bar hive from a purchased kit. I like the idea of working with one bar at a time. Two weeks ago I installed a package of bees. All went as expected. The weather here is chilly now. They have built comb, but are not foraging much that I can see. I assume when it warms up they will be out for nectar and pollen. I feel uncertain about some aspects, but so far, at the very beginning, I feel OK about that.

Too bad there is posturing and animosity or attitude about hive type. Makes me not want to go to a bee club. I'm too introverted anyway. I'm not a hermit but after spending my days working with so many people, I like being by myself in the yard and garden. 

My hope here is to learn what I need to learn to keep bees, not have them swarm or die, get some honey and honeycomb, and sit in my chair and watch them collect pollen from the trees and dandelions. I also put in a 1/4 acre wildflower meadow, but that might not be blooming until next year.

I hope people will be open to the different methods and cross pollinate each other with their experiences and ideas.


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## shannonswyatt

I can understand people that sell stuff not being very enthusiastic about TBHs. A lot of TBH folks make there own hive, so there is little money to be made from someone who sells bee supplies (no foundations, extractors, frames, etc). And it wouldn't be good business sense to talk up TBHs if that means you may loose money. Don't stop going to meetings, there is a lot of information exchanged, and most importantly the contacts you may meet. Just because "Old Joe" has never seen a TBH it doesn't mean he hasn't seen AFB, Nosema, Varroa, etc, and you can get help from the folks you meet, or just exchange ideas.


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## Oldtimer

eukofios said:


> The weather here is chilly now. They have built comb, but are not foraging much that I can see. I assume when it warms up they will be out for nectar and pollen. I feel uncertain about some aspects, but so far, at the very beginning, I feel OK about that.


Long as they do not run out of food, ie, you feed them if need be if they cannot collect their own, and they should be fine.



eukofios said:


> Too bad there is posturing and animosity or attitude about hive type.


Just make sure that person is not you. The criteria should not be that a person has to wildly support Kenya TBH's and dis everything else or you write them off as a beekeeper. If the people who ran your courses took a neutral stance, what more can you reasonably ask? Shannon's post was very good, many of these folks you mention will be good beekeepers who can offer you a lot. This transcends the mere shape of the box the bees live in.


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## PatBeek

eukofios said:


> I'm not a hermit but after spending my days working with so many people, I like being by myself in the yard and garden.


Amen to that.

.


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## eukofios

Thanks for the comments. I think I'm pretty much a no-attitude guy. Nothing to prove. Not trying to convince anyone of anything, no agenda. Just trying to learn.

Thanks for the advice about feeding. I have an in-hive feeder with sugar water. Today was sunny and the bees were in the flowering cherry trees, so I think that's a good sign.

Sunny day. I pulled up a lawn chair near the hive and watched them flying in and out and around. Gave me peace of mind.


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## rhaldridge

I'd have to say that the reaction from folks in the bee club here has been more a kind of tolerant amusement, and that's fine. So far as I can tell, none of them have any experience with top bar hives or (as in my case) long hives.

But the guy I got my first bees from has become interested in the long hive, and talked about building one himself. Running frames without foundation was a new idea to him; he can hardly believe what nice comb my bees are building without foundation.


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## Calvin King

stan.vick wrote "He was nice but very skeptical and told me that Ga. law requires that I treat them before offering them for sale ."

I have been in one meeting and heard the Ga inspector speak. I wondered how much he really new about beekeeping. Is his knowledge from reading pamphlets, not books and not experience? The only comment I really remember was that it was recommended that all swarms in Ga. be killed unless you knew for certain that it came from your own hive.

Did you ask to see the state law in writing? I thought the Fat Beeman's bees were treatment free. He is in Lula, GA.

Is treatment required for in-state sales or only for out of state sales?

stan.vick wrote, "Then I mentioned that I would place them in deep langs after converting them from top bar hives. I also stated that the langs would be foundationless. I think I may have heard a gasp and a period of silence."

I fear if it is not in a white box it is outside his thinking.

Stan before you make that drastic step toward drugs check around and make certain what the law requires. If there truly is a written law that requires mite treatment for all sales, could the treatment not be powdered sugar?

I hate to see good survivor stock turn into drug addicts.


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## Oldtimer

Calvin King said:


> I thought the Fat Beeman's bees were treatment free.


He is small cell, he is not treatment free.


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## julysun

Eukofios Oltimer is very correct about feeding now. Note that ALL the food the package has is in that can that came with them! You must feed them until they have built some comb and stored some honey in that comb. That may take some time if the weather and your bloom date work against them. FEED!


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## kilocharlie

Criticism from other beeks, Yes. From the bees? Well, if they don't like it, they abscond or they die. Standard Lang's, Top Bar Hives, William Broughton Carr hives, mini mating nucs, non-standard hive dimensions, observer hives, I've kept and lost bees from each. Seems the WBC hive holds them in the best of all, but I don't have enough of them to make a statistically significant statement.

Surprising how much response and emotion seems to be going into a moot point. It reminds me of the beer commercial, "LESS FILLING!" "TASTES GREAT!", or the Ford vs. Chevrolet question...to which my favorite answer is, "Niether one beats a P-51 Mustang."

I back up "don't listen to criticism..." ...to which I would add, "that is not backed up with data nor experience!". I'd also back up Oldtimer in mentioning the physical differences regarding long hives vs. vertical hives, which makes a difference if you are one of the bees inside the box! Cluster movement can be critical.

As far as adapting from Langstroth to TBH, it is not difficult to make an adapter box, and let the bees draw out their own comb while "moving in" to the TBH.

Michael Bush has made a good point in the past - foundationless frames are very durable compared to Top Bar combs. Many folks have strongly suggested that a starter strip of foundation sure helps get the comb oriented in the correct direction. I admit that I have grown a preference to foundationless medium Langstroth frames over top bar hives, as they can be accelerated in an extractor very easily, without breaking, and producing a lot more honey than TBH. Now, I can see the weight needle on my scale point to a larger number in pounds of honey, and I give that much more consideration than I give to criticism from inexperienced folks without data!


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## beehonest

It goes in all directions. I don't like it when people try to preach thier methods as gospell. Top bar people say it is the only way, Lang guys say top bars are a waist of time, warre say that is they only way. To each his own. I get tired of things like people will be talking about treatments or something and the chem free guys who have thier own forum start jumping in like they know everything and thats the only way to do it. That's just an example. I started with langs and had a top bar. I got critisized both ways.


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## kilocharlie

More power to you. Build some of each type, put bees in them, start letting the bees teach us. See what works for you. Keep notes on pounds of honey produced, mite counts in the sticky paper under the SBB, evidence of bitten mites, uncapping of pink- or purple-eyes pupae, other hygenic habits, fly-out distance, proboscus length, any trait you can document.

OBSERVED RAW DATA TRUMPS OPINIONS 7 DAYS A WEEK.


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## stan.vick

Calvin King said:


> stan.vick wrote "He was nice but very skeptical and told me that Ga. law requires that I treat them before offering them for sale ."
> 
> I have been in one meeting and heard the Ga inspector speak. I wondered how much he really new about beekeeping. Is his knowledge from reading pamphlets, not books and not experience? The only comment I really remember was that it was recommended that all swarms in Ga. be killed unless you knew for certain that it came from your own hive.
> 
> Did you ask to see the state law in writing? I thought the Fat Beeman's bees were treatment free. He is in Lula, GA.
> 
> Is treatment required for in-state sales or only for out of state sales?
> 
> stan.vick wrote, "Then I mentioned that I would place them in deep langs after converting them from top bar hives. I also stated that the langs would be foundationless. I think I may have heard a gasp and a period of silence."
> 
> I fear if it is not in a white box it is outside his thinking.
> 
> Stan before you make that drastic step toward drugs check around and make certain what the law requires. If there truly is a written law that requires mite treatment for all sales, could the treatment not be powdered sugar?
> 
> I hate to see good survivor stock turn into drug addicts.[/QUOTE
> 
> Hello Calvin
> At this time I choose not to get in a peeing contest with the state inspector, I want to keep an open mind and learn what I can from him and try to show him what I am doing and the results of my methods at this stage. It's not like I am going to treat my basic breeding stock, so my plans of developing a better bee will continue as before. I am retired from Ga. state law enforcement so I know he could be referring to a departmental regulation or state law, both have the same effect of enforcement, but a regulation is much easier to change. I just don't think now is the time for me to try to change anything in the legal area.
> I am in reality a new beek and don't intent to pretend otherwise, at this point I can show the state inspector bees that have been known to be treatment free for over four years, now when I can show him six years without treatment in this climate I can start strutting a little. I just think we all have to be a lot less closed minded and try to see where the other "guy" is coming from and why he thinks the way he does, only then can we change ourselves and others to see what is the best way forward.
> I'll get off my soap box now, we have a long way to go Calvin I am glad there are people like you trying to improve the bee situation.


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## Solomon Parker

stan.vick said:


> I thought the Fat Beeman's bees were treatment free. He is in Lula, GA.


He claims use of FGMO, not what I'd call treatment free, but not any sort of dangerous or poisonous.

The nucs I purchased from him had some sort of inspection certification on them. I don't remember there being mandated treating involved. If there was, then he didn't advertise it.


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## Oldtimer

stan.vick said:


> I am in reality a new beek and don't intent to pretend otherwise, at this point I can show the state inspector bees that have been known to be treatment free for over four years, now when I can show him six years without treatment in this climate I can start strutting a little.


In my opinion 4 years is plenty to demonstrate it can be done. You can strut a little.

However I liked what you said about seeing the other guys point of view. There is normally more than one side to every story. Perhaps this attitude comes from your years in law enforcement.


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## kilocharlie

When I first got into beekeeping, a few things occurred to me as quite obvious. One was that I would have to get in to queen breeding and stock improvement, another was that there would be more than two ways to do most everything and that I would certainly try most hive arrangements. I knew that this would slow my efforts toward commercial beekeeping, but I figured that in the long run, I would be glad that I tried some of each. Why make 3,000 of the box that doesn't work as well as the other? It turns out that hive management is far more important than box configuration.


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## Saltybee

kilocharlie;942818
OBSERVED RAW DATA TRUMPS OPINIONS 7 DAYS A WEEK.[/QUOTE said:


> Put it does not speak as loudly.


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## kilocharlie

Salty - True, and it helps if you know Sign Language. It gets you quite accustomed to taking in information through the eyes, and helps you "Hear" when the message is not "loud". Anyone can have good observation skills, I just notice that my Deaf friends all are exceptionally good at it. I could consider myself to be "lucky" - I'm hard of hearing enough to know Sign Language, and can hear enough to talk with most people, especially ones who speak slow and clear.


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## thebalvenie

hostility or not.

like anything in life...have the right attitude...blow it off...be yourself...bee respectful...be an open mind....don't take things personal.

you have little control over others...so take what you can from them...good and bad...learn...and then pay it forward


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## coffeedad

I joined a local beekeeping association and only seem to be criticized from one of the leaders of the group. they had a tbh and lost it over the winter they decided to do away with it and now don't seem to want to have anything to do with them. they also lost 3 langs that same winter. I was hoping to find a mentor to help me succeed with my hobby. i will look for a new group to join and read a lot to help me learn.


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## Oldtimer

Heck I wouldn't caste them aside too quickly, I'm not familiar with your area but generally there are not a lot of Top Bar groups.

The guy cannot be too bigoted or he would not have got a TBH in the first place. However sounds like he is not your guy but just look for someone who knows bees.

First TBH's I was involved with, I never read any books on them but I do know bees, I was able to get excellent results by top bar standards and help others do the same. It's more about knowing bees rather than all the drivel that gets talked about why this or that hive design is better. 

Figure out who in the group is successful with their bees, and out of them find one who is not too prejudiced to help you and is willing to. For me I didn't find working with TBH's hard at all.


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## Daniel Y

I made one TBH along with a lang just to see what they are like. To put it simple I prefer the lang. But that is me. I see where the next guy woudl favor the TBH. That is all well and good. but the limitations and disadvantages of both are real. As long as the TBH hive holds up I have decided to use it to harvest cut comb honey. Easy to get into , No heavy lifting. Super easy to find the queen and inspect the brood nest and I find it far less necessary to do so. Harder to get put back together when the bees are all over the place but inspections still take far less time. I think it makes a great learning tool but is not as adaptable as the lang as the colony progresses.

The lang has a huge disadvantage particularly to the beginner in the fact it is adaptable. proper management of that adaptability is not always easy you can make it bigger you can make it smaller. but knowing just when to which is not always easy. Plus it's components come in a wide variety. everything from varied sizes of boxes to specialized bottom boards. feeders. covers. excluders. includers. and you name it. I am waiting for the revolving door entrance to be made. All of this not only leads to confusion in equipment selection but an abundance of excess and sometimes unnecessary equipment. Lang present a storage issue that TBH's do not have. you put the equipment back in the hive with a TBH. when all those huge boxes of honey come off a lang. you have to have a place to keep them until next year.

To ,me all beekeeping equipment has that feel that it was derived from the trash laying around when the person tried to design it. just because they are production made now does not change the fact they where basically barely make due designs. The TBH directly falls into that category. the very reason it was made was for people that have nothing to make hives from. The design of the lang was determined more by the dimensions of tossed out apple crates than the needs of the bees or the beekeeper. I have never seen any serious consideration of the impact that the completely unnatural expansion and contraction of the hive has on bees. I suspect ti cannot be good. I do see alto of comments on how good it is not on the backs of beekeepers to lift a deep of honey. Yet they still make them that big. TI is fairly common knowledge that bees will build the nest either near the entrance to the hive or at the tip of it. yet the lang hive will both. move the entrance around on the bees in some cases. and locate the nest at the bottom of the colony. I have read that bees will move up in winter and back down in the summer. I have not found this to be true. but that the bees work there way around the hive in a circle. A barrel woudl be more suitable to bees than a box. it is also tremendously inconvenient to have the brood nest under hundreds of lbs of honey. Yet a solution has never been found for that yet.

I have heard at times that queenless bees will produce more honey because they do not expend resources on rearing brood. yet not one honey production management method includes removing the bees from their queen. not even for a short period of time.

Where is the thought processes that lead to innovation? Buried under centuries of "This is how it has always been done"? They used to bleed people to remove the bad blood also. somewhere along the line they gave that up. I believe the lang hive should have been given up long ago also. That it is not is a testament that beekeeping is going nowhere fast. and has been doing so for a very long time. So do it any way you choose. but most of all try not to do it any way anyone else has ever tried. I don't think many of them are doing it very well anyway. They are doing it so bad that they make headlines regularly.


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## hpm08161947

Daniel Y said:


> I have heard at times that queenless bees will produce more honey because they do not expend resources on rearing brood. yet not one honey production management method includes removing the bees from their queen. not even for a short period of time.
> .


Sounds like a recipe for drone layers.


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## shannonswyatt

If you feed it frames of open brood you can stop the impulse for the workers to start laying.


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## Tango Yankee

Daniel Y said:


> I believe the lang hive should have been given up long ago also. That it is not is a testament that beekeeping is going nowhere fast. and has been doing so for a very long time. So do it any way you choose. but most of all try not to do it any way anyone else has ever tried.



While I am a very new beekeeper, and my only two hives are both TBHes, I am curious as to what you may have been working on to follow your own advice. What sort of "thinking outside of the Langstroth box" have you been doing?

As you've pointed out, the Langs have been in use for well over a hundred years. During that time the changes appear to have been confined primarily to refining the basic idea--plastic foundation, different sized supers, 8-frame instead of 10, that sort of thing. Management of the Langs has evolved to incorporate the new problems such as mites and beetles, with other refinements as experience has added to the general knowledge. In the end, it's still the same basic boxes with the same basic principles. 

So why is that? Is it because Langstroth got the basics right even if he did start with orange crates because they were handy? Is it because any additional complexity would make a hive too expensive or no be doable because of the bees themselves? Is it because in all this time no one has had an "Aha!" moment where an idea crystalized into something revolutionary? Is it because the Langs have proven to be the most efficient at honey production and coincidentally easy to secure for trucking across the US for polination? Or is is simply because it works, so why mess with success?

I was going to add regulations to the mix, but my impression is that the biggie when it comes to hives is to be able to inspect each frame, and that seems to me to be a capability any innovator would want to incorporate anyway so I discarded it.

Don't get me wrong--I don't disagree with the idea that the current situation may not be sustainable or that there might be a better way. But it is a very complex issue, and in the end we may find that for its purpose the basic Lang is indeed the most effective hive available and will continue to be so as long as the goals are maximize honey production and provide polinators.

Regards,
Tom


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## hpm08161947

shannonswyatt said:


> If you feed it frames of open brood you can stop the impulse for the workers to start laying.


Think about what you just said. 

We take away the quieen so there wlll not be any brood for the workers to care for.... then we add brood back in.... hmmm... something does not make sense.... anyway... guess we can go through the hives everyday cutting out QCs....


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## shannonswyatt

You wouldn't need a ton of brood to keep the girls from starting to lay. If the brood is over a day old they can't make queen cells from it, but the brood will still be releasing pheromones. I've never done this, I've just read about it.


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## Rader Sidetrack

> If the brood is over a day old they can't make queen cells from it

:scratch:

How do you define _brood_? I would have thought eggs and larva would fit the general definition of _brood_.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm


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## shannonswyatt

Good point. Eggs hatch into brood. Brood that is under two days old can be raised into a queen.

Like I said before, I never did the whole remove queen method of making more honey, I just read about it. I know a lot of folks would remove any queen cells that are developed if you put in young brood.


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