# My oxalic fogging test



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Thanks for the update and before treating numbers. Please update as you receive more data. Do you plan to do another "wash" on 1/2 cup of bees after you complete your treatments?


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## Matt yocham (Aug 3, 2016)

Yes i do plan on doing another wash. I noticed on the sticky board that there was a lot of oa build up on the board. I guess the fogger wasnt getting a good fog the first time. We will see what the next check brings.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Thanks for the details and keep up the good work..
Rolling 12 per 300 is 4% 
natural mite fall(no treatment) of 30 mites on a sticky board in 3 day is 1%(ish) 
while sticky boards are wildly inaccurate and the sample size of one hive is tiny the data set your presenting would say the treatment its helping the mite live longer.:lookout:
by all means please run the 2nd board and roll, but I would do a board with a OAV/OAD or outher known kill rate treatment, the roll of 12 says you should be seeing 100's if not 1k+ not 10's of dead mites if the treatment was effective.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You cannot get an accurate mite count when there are cap brood frames in the hives. To get
a more accurate count wait until a new brood cycle of bees emerged. When majority of the free running mites are 
inside the cap broods your treatment and mite count accuracy will be affected. Once a new cycle of bees emerged you
will see more mites.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@msl:

Can you explain the math behind this?



> natural mite fall(no treatment) of 30 mites on a sticky board in 3 day is 1%(ish)


I realize you added the "ish" as a qualifier, but I still can't follow you as the two types of monitoring have nothing to do with one another, at least as far as I know.

Nancy


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

30 mites in reference to his unique low mite population at the time of his treatment. With
higher free running mites then the 30% will change increasing the 1% to a higher mite load falling on
the sticky board. 30% is an estimate in relation to the number of mites inside the hive. Very subjective
evaluation in the local bee hive environment. If it is an accurate math then 30% is consider very high 
mite load versus the normal 2%.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

How big is the colony, if you have a 4% count and have about 10,000 nurse bees your 4% of phoretic bees could be a total of 400 phoretic mites. It all depends on the size of the colony and how many brood frames can also come into the story. nd those phoretic mites could be anywhere from 20% to 40% of the total mite infestation in the colony. So a small mite drop does not bode well for that treatment. However strange things can happen so you should continue with your treatment session and when completed do a mite count and you should then know if it has worked or not.
Johno


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## Matt yocham (Aug 3, 2016)

Its a small hive that i got as a nuc. It started out small never grew that much and when it filled out 10 frams went honey bound. I transferred 2 frams of brood a month ago and its starting to grow more now. Thats why i did a wash on it. Its has probably 4 fram of brood.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

enjambres I pulled it from Randy Oliver _Reconnaissance Mite sampling methods and thresholds_ http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-reconnaissance-mite-sampling/


> As a general goal, try to keep the mite level below a 1% infestation of adult bee at any time–
> 24-hr natural sticky fall—about 10 mites
> Ether roll or sugar shake of 300 bees— about 3 mites


Stephen Martin's study says https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4f58/1d5e95c90a972d14be20c6c2207db90e1cec.pdf


> by multiplying the daily mite drop by 250–500 in the winter (broodless period) or 20–40 in the summer (brood present), a beekeeper would be able to estimate the live mite population in the colony at that time.


a 10 a day drop would be 200-400 mites, 40,000 bees in a hive give us a 0.5-1.0% so the mite drop of 30 over 3 days is 4X less then of what we would expect to naturally fall given the 4% roll.

but thats were thing get wonky as Johno points out. A 4% roll with brood on realy means 8% total live mite pop (in brood and on bees) 


> Beekeepers can estimate a colony's mite density with chosen level of precision by dislodging mites from approximately to 300 adult bees taken from one brood box frame in the colony, and they can extrapolate to mite density on a colony's adults and pupae combined by doubling the number of mites on adults


 _Lee, KV, RD Moon, EC Burkness, WD Hutchison and M. Spivak (2010) Practical sampling plans for Varroa destructor (Acari: Varroidae) in Apis mellifera (Hymenoptera: Apidae) colonies and apiaries_. 

So we would be expecting hundreds of dead mites in a 3 day board with 4% roll, some magic may happen in the next few days, but the lack of drop day 1-3 likly means the treatment was a bust
Rember boards are wildly inaccurate as there can be times the hive is cralwing with mite and nothing drops the day or to you out it in, and the amount of brood in hive changes what the jar sample means

edit, matt posted while I was typeing. size matter !


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## JTGaraas (Jun 7, 2014)

What scientific or published study identifies oxalic acid mixtures/quantities for application by "fogger" (and not vaporization of the crystals with heat)? Is this a practice that is widespread, and is it endorsed by any institutions/universities involved with beekeeping?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I did some trials fogging 3 hives with an OA/ glycerin mixture, 4 treatments 5 days apart. Due to robbing pressure I only mite checked 1 of the 3 hives which had a count of 3/100 bees. The treatment ended on August the 22nd and after a few days I mite checked all the hives as there did not seem to be a major mite drop, the hive with a count of 3 was down to 1 and the other two were at 5 and 12. The count of 12 made me feel that the OA/glycerin fog was ineffective as a mite treatment. So on the 26th I started a treatment regimen on those 3 hives with OAV using a band heater vaporizer which resulted in heavy mite falls on the 5 and 12 count hives the 1 count I can not tell as it has a solid bottom board. The mites fell heavily for 48 hours and then tailed off. I did the second treatment yesterday the 30th and a check this morning showed another heavy mite fall which I would guess at about 200 from the 12 count hive. So I would recommend that after your trials with the OA/alcohol fogging take counts and switch to a known treatment if the counts are not very low.
Johno


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

JTGaraas said:


> What scientific or published study identifies oxalic acid mixtures/quantities for application by "fogger" (and not vaporization of the crystals with heat)? Is this a practice that is widespread, and is it endorsed by any institutions/universities involved with beekeeping?


No such studies exist. No, the practice is not widespread. Everyone who has presented any numbers at all for the various versions of fogging show numbers that say it is most likely this practice is either ineffective or at best modestly effective. I found fogging in water solution to be 100% ineffective after fogging weekly for eight consecutive weeks at a rate of 1.2 g oxalic acid per ten frame deep. Mite wash counts were the same between treated and control hives. The highest single count I got was on a treated hive. I also showed that at least 70% of the oxalic acid sent thru the fogger was in the fog unchanged. None of the alcohol or glycerin fog experiments have done a thing to prove any oxalic acid survives in the fogger. So, no one knows the actual chemical composition of those fogs.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I think in all fairness there are also no studies on the multiple use of OAV either, all the wizards of smart will tell us that OAV is only effective on broodless colonies and if multiple treatments of OAV are carried out then the colonies are harmed in some way. By the way most of these folks gave us the Dowda method and SBB to combat mites, not to mention the mites feeding on the bees hemalymph. With mites we are still in the dark ages and some beekeeper fooling around with some method of treatment could still make a difference in the end.
Johno


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

johno;1576646all the wizards of smart will tell us that OAV is only effective on broodless colonies and if multiple treatments of OAV are carried out then the colonies are harmed in some way.[/QUOTE said:


> there are TONS of studys on multiple OAV treatments
> here one http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00218839.2015.1106777
> the "harmed in some way" comes from OAD and the internet twisting it, Maggi's latest paper follows a commercial keeper that was OADing 8X a year for 8 years


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Msl, What is the wording on the EPA's label for the use of OAV on colonies? Does it not say to be used on broodless colonies only. Who would have advised the EPA on this matter, definitely not me, and I have been using OAV maybe going on 5 years now. Who are the experts writing up all the beekeeping beginners courses who insist OAV can be used only on broodless hives, I have questioned this on occasions but that belief still remains. If I recall some of your earlier postings also point to the EPA labels. One beekeeper has used this treatment for over 8 years and the scientific community checks something in 2015, 8 years after. I would say they are a little behind the curve if you ask me.
Johno


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Johno, in fairness to the EPA, they really did not come up with the directives. In order to speed up approval of OAV, it adopted Canada's regulations rather than conduct its own studies. J


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Hi Fivej, Do the experts in Canada still believe and regulate OAV for use only on broodless colonies. If so then maybe all these smart folks are a world wide phenomenon.
Johno


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

No matter what people wish, OAV is not a effective treatment when brood is on, simple fact
Doesn't mean some one won't stack a bunch of ineffective treatments together to get a result. Powdered sugar is not an effective brood on treatment either, but do it enuff times and you can control mite levels.


> One beekeeper has used this treatment for over 8 years and the scientific community checks something in 2015, 8 years after.


no, there are TONS of studys on using a course of 3+ OAD treatments a week apart, inculding the last one I posted a link to.

Sadly what is popular on the internet has much more impact on what people are trying as a good study.
The unsubstantiated flogger craze making a new round every few years every time what you put in it is changed is a great example... 
Oh FGMO is the end all of treatments, o it doent work, lets add OA, Thimoa, etc 
now its water and OA is the silver bullet
yes OA gliserien is the ticket and will save beekeeping as we know it
now it eth and OA.
For every one of these there is a internet talking head assuring you its a great treatment, years and years and years of BS posts on it....
this time I jumped on every thread I could and harped on numbers, finally some are coming in and it looks like we can nip this in a the bud before it grows to FGMO perporstions. 15+ years of failed fogger fad treatments 
could some beekeeper "fooling around" find the sliver bullet, maby, but the history shows with out numbers and controlled studys they are more likly to do harm then good as people hop on board a fad and lose hives

the marketing internet vrial drive behind all the alternative treatments, small cell, altertintive hives is the studys/math/history etc are wrong/behind the curve what ever. 
if you are looking to find new ways to fight the mites, spend more time on goggle scholar and less on unknown youtube channels.

To be clear, I am not saying not to try new stuff, I am saying make sure to do the leg work so you have some objective ways to measure the results


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Msl, to make it clear, are you telling me in your last post that OAV is not an effective way of controlling mites in colonies, if so it would appear to have been wasting my time for the last 5 years fortunately my colonies are not aware of that. I would also point out that the link in one of your posts was not about testing multiple treatments of OAV but to see if colonies that have had multiple treatment developed any resistance to OA treatments. I am sure that you will agree that the efficacy of OAV is in the 95% region on phoretic mites, so theoretically you remove around 95% of the 40% of phoretic mites and a week later you remove 95%of maybe 40% of the remaining 65% and a week later 95% of the remaining38% and so on ad infinitum and at a treatment time of max a minute a hive at a cost of a few cents a hive, I did 10 this morning and did not even kit up for the job as this yard had entrance reducers in all the hives. On the fogging side of things it has to be tried and tested before any judgements can be made and the reason that I did trials on the OA/glycerin fogging was to satisfy my own curiosity. You will note that OA/ glycerin on cardboard treatments did not originate from official research but from beekeepers searching for answers. And yes as Abraham Lincoln said " you can not believe everything you read on the internet " so it is sort of buyer beware if you buy into every theory that appears on this or any internet forum.
Johno


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The recommendation of three treatments a full week apart may indeed not be the most effective mite treatment program on a heavily brood rearing colony. That regime is being given some sober second thoughts in regard to number and frequency and not only by backyard beekeepers. There has been some slagging of oxalic acid in regard to impact on the bees when used repeatedly in *the dribble method in a sugar syrup*; not very much documented when exposed to sublimed (vaporized?) oxalic acid. I have not seen near as much sign of mortality after a vaporization as compared to after any routine hive inspection. 

I would recommend cautious experimentation with 5 repetitions at 4 day intervals and close followup in the event that you are getting continuous inflow of mites from other sources. That has been very effective mite treatment for me but it is a given that you have to be committed to not missing events! My last round was done in a light rain!

If you are doing a large number of colonies you will not likely be a happy camper using a single tray type applicator via the front entrance. I can certainly understand why people will lean toward something that is a one shot deal!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> I would also point out that the link in one of your posts was not about testing multiple treatments of OAV but to see if colonies that have had multiple treatment developed any resistance to OA treatments.


the link posted as stated was on repeaded OA treatments 
from the link


> . We compared three OA application methods (trickling, spraying, and sublimation) at three or four (sublimation) doses, using 110 broodless colonies in early January 2013.





> You will note that OA/ glycerin on cardboard treatments did not originate from official research but from beekeepers searching for answers.


 once again your missing the point that said beekeepers did research and study's and papers on the subject. they did not whip something up in there garage and post a youtube video with no substantiation of the effects of the treatment.. By all means PLEASE be like the beekeeper that worked on OAG 



> That regime is being given some sober second thoughts in regard to number and frequency and not only by backyard beekeepers


that may have a lot to do with the mites adapting, Brood to phoirc is now 80/20 instead of the 66/33 in the past, treatments that don't kill mites in the brood have slecticed for mites with a shorter phoirc period. 
A few years back 3 oavs a week a part would get the job done... now its 5, hurd some one talking 6 at one point


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Msl, where did you get those figures 80/20 66/33 where mites were adapting. Bearing in mind the only treatment I know of that kills mites in the brood is formic acid and sometimes I am not so sure about that as conditions can vary to such an extent as to make those treatments unreliable in high temperature areas. There seems to be very little progress in mite research over the last few years and I do not know how one would define the norm. Is it known whether the foundress mite on leaving a cell can immediately enter another, I would think that this is possible however I believe the daughters or immature mites must mature on a bee for some time before re entering a cell and if they do not do this they are sterile and no offspring are produced. This is old research but like bees feeding on hemolymph how much is actual fact and as I mentioned before we are just scratching around in the dark but then again even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and again.
Johno


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

"that may have a lot to do with the mites adapting, Brood to phoirc is now 80/20 instead of the 66/33 in the past, treatments that don't kill mites in the brood have slecticed for mites with a shorter phoirc period.
A few years back 3 oavs a week a part would get the job done... now its 5, hurd some one talking 6 at one point"

Could this be a bit of grasping to support a hunch! "may have" "80/20 instead of 66/33" When was this ratio ever an essentially exact number? I am sure I have seen it approximated as 75%. In general most tech transfer people are recommending a lower treating threshold but I think that could well relate to increased potency of vectored viruses. I sure dont think your hypothesis is a _slam dunk_ that varroa are becoming resistant to OA.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

its what the BIP is saying now...a few outher fokes as well 
I should have prefaced it as "it is being said" its now 80/20... as you note "facts" change 
I have no reason to dought these experts in the feild, but I have yet to see a firm study on it.... Haven't seen a great one 66/33 either...

but lets break this down
a few years back Eric C. Mussen of UCD says


> within 6 days, 44 percent of the young mites have moved into the brood cells; within 12 days, 69 percent of the mites are in the brood cells; and within 24 days, 90 percent of the mite are in the brood cells.


if your running a coarse of weekly treatments with brood on, OAV kills for 3 days or so, you are then selecting for mites that reenter a cell with in 1-4 days. 
Boot-1995 found


> Reproduction was independent of the period the mites had spent on adult bees prior to invasion into brood cells


 and its felt that


> it seemed to have no aim for the parasite other than providing transport between reproduction sites . Therefore, it could be suppressed without having any visible impact on the mite reproduction


 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4838260/#pone.0153482.ref011

Taken as a whole its seems not only plausible, but the expected outcome as more and more peopel seem to be running corces of treatment with brood on

As a note, this isn't Varroa becoming resistant (at least in the classic sence) to OA or treatments, its a behavior change, you would expect the same if a strong mite biting/grooming beeline came about, less time in the danger zone, better survival. Much like the behavioral resistance seen in mice http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1086&context=vpc15


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## JTGaraas (Jun 7, 2014)

Richard Cryberg - thank you for the information.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It is all too easy to be influenced by information gathered in support of most any outcome; in fact an impartial search must be deliberately protected so as to not be influenced by sheer number of available documents without regard to their quality. What "seems plausible" should not be considered as any kind of proof. To truly test the strength of hypothesis one should attempt to collect the the maximum of critical questioning information, rather than the most appealing support: we can well assume this is *not* the most common case though.

Confirmation bias is hard to avoid as it can sneak in subconsciously.

There is a very large number of both gross and subtle influences that can affect the outcome of a mite treatment. Local conditions such as temperature, relative humidity, parallel disease and other possible stresses, ratios of different bee age categories and their direction trends, etc. Small differences in temperature of the process or the nature of the carrier can result in entirely different affective properties of the assumed active ingredient.

The inevitability of adaptive resistance may well be a flawed assumption. In any case I think that varroa mite treatment is still a work in progress!


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I very much enjoy discussions like this among knowledgeable people who can debate in a respectful way. J


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## Matt yocham (Aug 3, 2016)

I pulled my sticky boards and got about the same as 3 days ago not a big mite drop like i thought i would have. I know i should be seeing 200 or more dead mites every 3 days. I am going to do a wash tomorrow and see if i get a better mite count. I am going to order a vaporizer. When it gets in i will try it out and see if my mite drop improves.
Could my sticky board be getting compromised because i have solid bottom board? I just slide the sticky board in the bottom of the hive. Could the bees be cleaning it off? I am finding a few dead bees on the board that were not taken out.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Do your wash tomorrow and it should tell you something, if you started with a count of 12 and have not seen many mites fall you count should still be quite high. Mind you I am of an opinion that these mites are quite mobile, I don't know if they use uba or some other means of transport but they certainly seem to get around. If there are mites there OAV will certainly get some onto your sticky board. I have been finding broodless colonies low on mites contrary to the belief that when the colony is broodless all mites are phoretic therefore there should be higher mite drops. I have a suspicion that the mites sense the dwindling brood and move to colonies with more brood. Any way you just have to persevere with mite control or end up losing your bees.
Johno


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> I have been finding broodless colonies low on mites contrary to the belief that when the colony is broodless all mites are phoretic therefore there should be higher mite drops


post #10, when brood-less you should see about 12.5X less mites on a sticky, but 50% more in a wash 

I was finial able to dig up the effectiveness numbers for you, In the US the general rule is it has to kill 80% (DR VANENGELSDORP) or more of the mites in the hive, the EU is 90% or 80% as part of a program of different treatments http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/document_library/Press_release/2016/10/WC500213813.pdf
http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/document_library/Scientific_guideline/2010/11/WC500099137.pdf 
less then that a treatment is not considered effective


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: My oxalic fogging test /How to test?*

Each of us can do it easily and truly in an honest manner.
First do cage the queen for 24 days. Then do the treatment and its assessment. 

http://www.apimobru.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Instructions-Var-control-Cage-ENGULTIMO-3.pdf


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

*Re: My oxalic fogging test /How to test?*

Msl, I am not talking about natural mite drop onto a sticky board but the drop after a treatment of OAV, and if there is no drop from a broodless hive where have the mites gone? I have found this now on 2 occasions and suspect that when brood dwindles mites move out to other hives with brood. All I can say about Dr Van Engelsdorp is he can kill his mites anyway he likes and I will do likewise. In other words when I do a treatment and see few mites on the sticky it is worth while checking out that hive.
Johno


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