# Did I do this right? - Winterization West Central IL



## Bonnie Jorgenson (Jul 18, 2013)

I put 1/8 inch screen under the insulation. Bees liked the taste of R-5 a lot.  Used 1x4 for attic.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

I'd remove the piece of wood and screen the hole with 1/8 so bees can not get to the styrofoam. Any condensation above the bees would be on the underside of the styrofoam and mostly drip onto the top side of the inner cover. Also add a popsicle width opening between shallow and inner cover so get some ventilation of any moisture out the small opening. Should raise the styroam off the inner cover by adding a strip of min 3/8 blocking.
Close off the screen bottom board.

Alternately, leave the inner cover hole open and cut cut a piece of plywood to protect the styrofaom from the bees. The piece of plywood is better in that it absorbs some moisture before any condensation drips. Raise it up from the inner cover by min of 3/8 and vent the back between shallow and and inner cover with a pop sicle width. Vent moisture to prevent dripping and any mold. Close off screen bottom.

I use 1 inch bottom entrance which is 1/2 by 3/8 on each side and 1 1/2 top notch in inner cover. A seasoned beekeep from my climate recommended a single 5/8 bottom entrance. I also have a 2 1/2 inch deep feeder rim above the top deep and have a 3/4 round hole in front of it.

Ventilation required is a regional thing and depends on bee population(give off moisture from metabalism) and humidity of the air. Check what other area beekeeps do for top and bottom opening size. Monitor your hive and adjust openings wider if condensation and mold become problems.


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## mrqb (Jul 17, 2011)

Looks Mighty good to me Pappy.My inner only has hole in front,dont want any wind blowin threw causing the chimney effect. You close your bottom off or leaving it open?


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

mrqb said:


> My inner only has hole in front,dont want any wind blowin threw causing the chimney effect. You close your bottom off or leaving it open?


How is wind blowing through?


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

If left open the screened bottom board provides plenty of ventilation. Cold dry air is a moisture magnet. The moisture will be sucked out the sbb. Im consufed with all of the stuff up top, seems like overkill and alot of trouble.


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

mgolden said:


> How is wind blowing through?


There are two holes in opposite ends of the inner cover.


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

mrqb said:


> Looks Mighty good to me Pappy.My inner only has hole in front,dont want any wind blowin threw causing the chimney effect. You close your bottom off or leaving it open?


As of now, the plan is to leave the SBB open.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Sorry I missed that. Close the back end notch and use the popsicle stick to vent above inner cover.

What is status of screened bottom opening?


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

mgolden said:


> Also add a popsicle width opening between shallow and inner cover so get some ventilation of any moisture out the small opening. By small opening you are referring to the 'gap' created by the width of the Popsicle sticks? Should raise the styroam off the inner cover by adding a strip of min 3/8 blocking. The styrofoam is up about 1" above the bottom edge of the shallow box.
> Close off the screen bottom board. There is a notch where I can slide in a board, but do you mean totally block it off? Some of the beeks in this area just leave the SBB exposed.
> .


Thanks for your responses


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

The popsicle stick creates a small gap that vents area above the inner cover.

I'd totally close screen bottom boards for winter. Templast( the material a lot of political campaign signs are made of) works well to slide in. I'd regulate my ventilation via size of opening in bottom entrance reducer and make sure upper entrance is as large or larger.

Just as and aside, I cut a 45 off each corner on one end of the templast, so in summer, I can increase ventilation up two back corners. Haven't really concluded whether is does much good, but should help on 90F days.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I also vote for closing off the screen for winter. I see your wooded block is to keep the bees off the insulation. There is a balance between allowing fresh air in, and allowing so much flow that they have to expend too much energy to stay warm; I think this is one of the least understood areas of beekeeping and it differs so much by region that what is true in one part of the country may not be so in another.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

If it were me, I would remove the shallow super, plug the rear notch on the inner cover and close off the SBB.


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

Thanks for all of the suggestions and information. The article I read which used the styrofoam brought their colonies through winter 100%. That's what got my interest here where winters can get long and sometimes brutal cold wind. My neighbor had a hive last year, they didn't make it. His claim was they starved. Since I didn't see the hive, nor know how he has his setup, it's hard to say. I'm beginning to catch on to the idea of the ventilation and how imperative it is to a healthy hive, for all seasons. I've re done the drawing to include the Popsicle sticks, and screen over the inner cover hole.
Perhaps the hives would be just fine without the extra "hoopla", but currently all I've got is the inner cover, and the outer cover (propped up), and the SBB on the bottom. They've been this way since April.

What I'm not quite comprehending is the purpose of the styrofoam above. Heat and moisture will rise up through the screen covered inner cover hole. There is air venting across that same plane with the Popsicle stick opening. 1 inch above that is the foam insulation, and dead air above capped off by the top cover. So the idea is the insulation traps their warm air, and reflects it back down to them somewhat? Or is it more to prevent the colder air from coming down on them?
Any condensation which might form will roll off back toward the inner cover. The air gap created by the P. sticks will flow a lot of that warm air out is my guess.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm in a warmer area than Illinois, and don't use insulation in my hives.  One of the biggest values of the foam in a cold climate is to provide a thermal separation of the cold top cover from the relatively warm and humid air inside the hive. The goal is to reduce the possibility of condensation forming on the underside of the cover and dripping onto the bees.

The bees are much better at dealing with cold air than cold water on them.


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

As a follow up-
I made some changes and some decisions. I've eliminated the shallow super with the foam insulation. I thought it best to perhaps wait until I've gained some "over-wintering" experience before making all sorts of contraptions and experiments to try and deviate from a standard setup. I have added a thin bottom board slipped in beneath the SBB. It is thin enough to allow some air flow, but keep out wind gusts or uninvited guests. I've added a 2" spacer which is just a 4 sided box stacked on top of the top of the upper deep. This allows room for a bag feeder on top of the frames. We learned how to make the sugar patty mix at our last BeeKeeper meeting. On top of that spacer is the inner cover. On top of the inner cover are some "Popsicle" stick sized spacers to prop up the outer cover and allow air flow, but not enough room for bees to exit. One of the inner covers has notched holes to front and back. I've blocked off one of the entrances to the back of the body.
In my humble opinion, this setup allows air flow, yet protection from cold freezing winds. It also give opportunity to feed if necessary and the bees won't have to break cluster to get to the food.

My plan is to purchase some protein patties to feed to them also, and I'll be set-up for early spring feeding if all goes well.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

I put 2 inch of styrofoam in the under side of the inner cover. Condensation will happen on the coldest surface first and in my case that is the front wall where I have 1/2 styrofoam. 

Condensation above the cluster and dripping on the bees must be avoided. A wet cluster cannot stay warm and hive will die.

Add apiece of 3/8 plywood on the under side of the styrofoam. The 3/8 will absorb some moisture before it drips. I use a 3/4 plywood in the top of the top cover and run a screw in each corner through the 3/8, up through the styrofoam and into the top cover 3/4. This keeps the styrofoam in place.


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

mgolden said:


> Condensation above the cluster and dripping on the bees must be avoided. A wet cluster cannot stay warm and hive will die..


I have removed my Styrofoam from the hive box. If you look at my new diagram, you'll see it's inner cover, some popsicle sticks, and then outer (top) cover. The inner cover is on top of a 2" wooden spacer, no insulation.
I don't think I'll try the styrofoam until next season when I have a better feel for what the colonies experience during a winter here.
Thanks.


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

SE Iowa so not a lot of difference in climate...
As stated by a few others.. slide your board in under the SBB, and close off the rear notch in the inner cover, leave the front open...

We do pretty much the same.. 
On top of the brood box we put a 2 inch spacer. Put newspaper down and pour a bag of sugar on the newspaper, (keepingit back from the front of the hive at least two inches) pouring a bit, and spraying it with a bit of water, pouring more etc... doesnt need a lot of water, just enough to start the sugar clumping.. many folks dont do or like this.. but I have found the sugar to be good insurance, even if the brood chambers have plenty of honey. On top of the spacer we place the inner cover, flipped, with the notch down facing the front. This allows an entrance/exit if the blowing snow fills the bottom entrance.. if your winds are like ours, you would have to go out every fifteen minutes to clear the snow away before it turned to ice. A piece of duct tape, or plastic over the hand hole in the inner cover to keep the bees away from the foam... then a piece of 2" foam cut to fit. Then the tele cover, and cheap ratchet straps to hold everything together.

You used a piece of wood, and thats fine. with the foam above it you should not get condensation on it to drip down on the bees. With only one notch open at the top you will get plenty of ventilation, (Two may be too much, never tried two. And if you add the sugar on top, it too will absorb moisture.
Sometimes the bees have devoured almost all the sugar by spring, sometimes they havent touched it, and I have a block of sugar to lift out.. I just use it to make syrup for spring feeding. Oh, we also wrap our hives with 15# felt paper.. So long as the varoa are under control this has given consistently good overwintering.

As in everything related to keeping bees.. no method is perfect or foolproof. Read everyones opinions and decide from among them all how YOU think it will work best for you and your situation/climate.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

I'm with SS1, my climate is probably not too different either. Only think I don't do is close the SBB. I have not done it in 5+ years and the girls do quite well. I always beat the club average in survival. Most of my hives are situtated with a wind break of some kind though, fence, hedge, etc. Some time in December I go out and put down a layer of newspaper and dump 5 pounds of sugar on top for moisture absorption and emergency feed. The bricks sound easier so might give those a try this year.


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

There is a good size growth of pines behind my hives to break the wind.. but we get 30mph winds regularly in winter, and I really dont want to go outside when its -10 and the wind is blowing at 20 to 30mph.. I honestly think even with a windbreak ( Hay bales, Fence etc) that the whirling wind would still cause problems with an open SBB here... My hives are up off the ground 12 inches on stands, and the snow STILL fills the bottom entrances.. the warmth in the hive turns it into an ice wall.. I am afeared to try open SBB's.......


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## CreamPuffFarm (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks for posting this diagram. I got on here today to ask about placement of the popsicle stick. I was feeling dense. I think I understand now how to place them. Do you use just one on one side or all four sides? 
Also, does the inner cover absolutely need to be notched with the use of a popsicle stick? (I currently have a solid bottom board and entrance reducer on at smallest size.)


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

CreamPuffFarm said:


> Thanks for posting this diagram. Also, does the inner cover absolutely need to be notched with the use of a popsicle stick? (I currently have a solid bottom board and entrance reducer on at smallest size.)


On one box, I put 4 Popsicle sticks on, one in each corner, at a 45º angle. Since it's job is to provide just that small gap, I guess it doesn't matter too much how they are placed. On another box I placed them following the edge of the box, using 8 sticks, 2 to each corner perpendicular to one another. This is the first time I've done this, and I was only told about it verbally just to fore warn you. But I think I've accomplished the principal of allowing air flow, but not allowing enough space to create too much air flow.
I only have one of my 3 inner covers notched which provides a top entrance. The more I read about top entrances, the more I like the idea. My current plan is to notch out two more inner covers, and replace the ones on the other two hives. I too have a front bottom entrance, closed down to the smallest opening. I did put these slide in boards beneath the SBBs. They do NOT seal off the bottom as they're only about 3/16" thick, there is still an air flow gap, however it should block the wind. My thinking is it make it easier for the bees to preserve the heat they create, and still have ventilation.
I also will build a wind break using straw bales, and some dog eared fence panels. 2 of the hives are toward the open end of a field.


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## CreamPuffFarm (Apr 28, 2011)

thanks for your reply. I used a top entrance this summer and it seemed the bees liked it, at least they brought in a lot of honey. We just used a hole saw and made a circular hole in the top. However, I have taken that off for the winter.
We also have put up a section of privacy fence as a windbreak. We have not done that before, but we've lost bees in winter 2 of the 3 years we've had them. so I'm trying to take every precaution to get them through this year. 
One last question (I think) is if I use the popsicle sticks and no notches, is this enough air flow? 
Thanks again.


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

CreamPuffFarm said:


> One last question (I think) is if I use the popsicle sticks and no notches, is this enough air flow?
> Thanks again.


Well I wish I could answer that with absolute conviction, but I can't. I don't know. As I stated previously, I have two of my boxes with NO Notch on them (the inner cover) but I am going to change that to using inner covers WITH a notch to the front to be used as a top entrance. In my situation I believe that the extra (small) entrance won't add too much air, but will provide an entrance/exit located close to the colony, and one that won't get snowed over. Most opinions I've read/heard suggest that this is fine and will provide enough air flow. Many beeks leave a completely open SBB and don't seem to have issues. 
I DO know that air flow is imperative for a healthy colony, in all seasons. Finding that balance is important. In winter, the bees can survive the cold with plenty of stores and good ventilation. It is the combination of cold and moisture, or lack of stores which can be deadly.

You mention that you've lost bees over the last two winters. What do you attribute that to?


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## Queenie (May 9, 2011)

How big do you make the upper entrance hole and where should it be placed, in the top centre or to one side? I was thinking of doing this to help increase honey flow in the spring and making it big enough that I can use a cork to plug it when not in use. 
For winterizing, I notch insulation board placed over the inside cover. Moisture and mildew are the worst winter problems here on the coast!


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

Queenie said:


> How big do you make the upper entrance hole and where should it be placed, in the top centre or to one side? I was thinking of doing this to help increase honey flow in the spring and making it big enough that I can use a cork to plug it when not in use.
> For winterizing, I notch insulation board placed over the inside cover. Moisture and mildew are the worst winter problems here on the coast!


What sort of insulation board are you using that is moisture/mildew resistant? What is the MOC?

I have the notch in the frame of the inner cover at about .5" (half inch) 2 bees width.
I have Supers I purchased from a beek that have a 3/4 round hole in them on the short side near the top. He told me it's so the bees don't have so far to go when working on the honey production when the flow is on. I got them too late for this year, but look forward to using them. It makes sense. That's a lot less distance to travel or carry nectar than through a bottom entrance, and all the way up to the Supers and frames. Many of those same supers have spacers in them and only hold 9 frames. The bees draw the comb out wider, easier to cut the cappings off.


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## Queenie (May 9, 2011)

Just 2" from my local hardware store. Comes in 4x8 ft sheets. It is not Mildew resistant. It's all about trying to control moisture by insulating (to prevent issues with condensation), leaving the min space for the colony and weather proofing. The notches in the insulation are for ventilation and, in theory, to let the warm moist air out of the hive. I'm not sure about the MOC.


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## hlhart2014 (Jun 11, 2012)

Where do you put the layer of newspaper..under the inner cover or above?


hilreal said:


> I'm with SS1, my climate is probably not too different either. Only think I don't do is close the SBB. I have not done it in 5+ years and the girls do quite well. I always beat the club average in survival. Most of my hives are situtated with a wind break of some kind though, fence, hedge, etc. Some time in December I go out and put down a layer of newspaper and dump 5 pounds of sugar on top for moisture absorption and emergency feed. The bricks sound easier so might give those a try this year.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Big difference between SBB and closed bottoms. You don't need upper ventilation with sbb. Upper ventilation can actually hurt you if you use kelley plastic covers, must apply foam insulation.


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## CreamPuffFarm (Apr 28, 2011)

BeePappy said:


> You mention that you've lost bees over the last two winters. What do you attribute that to?


Last winter I would be pretty convinced it was due to starvation. The times before that, I was so new at it, that I really didn't have any idea.


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## CreamPuffFarm (Apr 28, 2011)

I think our upper hole was 1/2 or 3/4 inch. Just whatever size we had handy.


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

Halley L. Hart said:


> Where do you put the layer of newspaper..under the inner cover or above?


The Michael Bush site has a section devoted to feeding. This newspaper method is discussed and has photos. 
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm


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