# Thoughts on Vivaldi Boards for overwintering?



## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Interesting. I suspect it may be one of those devices that works well for some, in some regions, and not so well in others - kind of like screened bottom boards.

Me, I might build one, and give it a try . I'll put it on the "long list" for this winter...


----------



## capitalbeesupply (Jul 28, 2013)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Saw this: http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Vivaldi-Board/productinfo/643/ and was wondering. Still, it has the board that condensation can drip off of.
> 
> I'm looking for the perfect overwintering scenario, and I think that's quilt boxes, but I wonder if this is a possibility. Anyone tried it?


There are a lot of ways to provide ventilation to mitigate moisture coming from the respiration of a winter cluster and condensing on the first cold surface it hits which is typically the inner cover) and dripping back down on the bees. It can be as simple as tilting/cracking the outer cover. In the Minnesota method an insulating/wicking board is used. Some use a form of a quilt box with various materials inside (wood shavings, shredded newspaper, felted wool, cellulose, flower desiccant....rigid insulation doesn't allow vapor through, so there the idea is to push the cold surface outward away from the bees). Some use a 2" or 3" rim with wax paper on the top of the bars and mound granulated sugar on top which provides emergency feed and also wicks some moisture. We typically use the rim with granulated sugar or one of our insulating/ventilating covers. In the big picture when thinking of wintering the general order of things to worry about is
1) having young, productive queens
2) having adequate food reserves
3) having low disease and pest levels
4) adequate ventilation (and ventilation always trumps insulation)

Beyond that the rest is intruder control and weatherization (mouse guarding, wrapping or not wrapping, etc).
Rich
Capital Bee Supply
Madison, WI


----------



## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Still, it has the board that condensation can drip off of.


I simply tilt my hives a few degrees as winter sets in, so that any condensation can run down the walls and exit via the mesh floor. I find that a heavily insulated top, uninsulated sides, and an open bottom works well - in my locality.
LJ


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

That's beautiful Rich! Combines everything - the moisture absorption, the fabric, the screening, the 3/8" for feeding (altho 1.5" would be ideal, for sugar bricks) (I would add an imrie shim under it), the ventilation holes, top entrance - it has everything.

I'm wondering what cellulose insulation is (does it have any chemicals in it?). What would make that piece of equipment even better IMO would be a latch so you could fill and empty pine shavings into it every year, using fresh and being able to monitor how much moisture it was absorbing by opening it up and feeling it with your hand.

I'm thinking that, with a telescoping lid and foam insulation right under the lid, would about do it.


----------



## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Many years ago, "drop ceiling" ceiling tiles were promoted as an efficient "moisture wick", in either ABJ or Gleanings. There may still be a stack of those, somewhere. They "drooped" too much, if I recall.


----------



## Thershey (Mar 12, 2014)

I have five Vivaldi boards that I've played around with for overwintering the past couple winters, here's my experience. Small difference in design in that mine did not have the screened in box area but I don't think the results would differ.

1st year - added dry sugar (mtn camp ish) and pollen patty so the bees could come thru the hole and eat if they needed food. They didn't touch it, I concluded it was too far from the cluster, they weren't willing to go up and get the food. Maybe they would have but the hives got really light and they weren't eating.

2nd year - abandoned the feeding idea but figured it might be a great move to use the space for insulation. I cut 1" rigid foam to fit in the box nice and snug, then cut the center out to allow warm air to vent out thru the center hole. Did a spot check in mid December.... The telescoping cover was saturated, completely soaked and there was standing water on the foam. Concluded that while the foam did create a cold barrier to keep the inside of the hive warm, it was in the wrong place as the warm air was condensing above the foam, on the bottom of the telescoping cover. Made two modifications, both worked but one worked better than the other. Mod 1) cut the 1" foam to fit tightly into the telescoping cover. This worked pretty well, things dried out and stayed dried out for the remainder of the winter. Problems were ..It does lift the cover up a bit and can expose more cold air to the vents front and back. Also this would not work so well with my plywood tops. Mod 2) cut a piece of foam to fit on top of the outer (telescoping or other) cover, outside the hive. This worked very well, things dried out nicely and stayed dried out for the rest of the year.

I now use 1.5 - 2" fully screened feeder shims year round. Basically a Vivaldi board but the board is screen instead of thin plywood. The screen is sandwiched between a 1.5" cut down hive body and a .5" piece of stock. Deep side up in the summer to prevent them from drawing comb, deep side down in the winter to provide a warm area to hang out, feed sugar bricks etc... On top of that is an inner cover and a telescoping cover or Michael Bush style top cover made from cedar shims and plywood. Either top cover gets a piece of 2" rigid foam on top and the stay warm and dry.

Conclusion: For my money, the Vivaldi boards are far too expensive, not great for feeding and marginal at keeping things dry without modifications. For a couple bucks worth of screen and a little time cutting down hive boxes beyond their prime I have an all season tool that works very well with whatever type of cover I use.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

NewbeeInNH said:


> I'm looking for the perfect overwintering scenario, and I think that's quilt boxes, but I wonder if this is a possibility. Anyone tried it?


Don't waste your money. The most important thing is the bees in the box. After that, enough feed, upper entrance, inner cover insulation, and mouse protection in the bottom entrance.


----------



## yukonjack (Mar 12, 2015)

Mr. Palmer,
What do your upper entrances look like? Is it just the inner cover notch, or do you suggest a shim/spacer/hole?
Thanks!


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Yes, the inner cover notch. Also, the bottom entrance is wide open with 1/2" hardware cloth as mouse guard. Plenty of ventilation. Wrapping helps if you're far enough north.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> Don't waste your money. The most important thing is the bees in the box. After that, enough feed, upper entrance, inner cover insulation, and mouse protection in the bottom entrance.


That sounds too easy.

The one thing I've lacked doing every winter is an insulation board under the cover. Maybe that's the most important thing to do.

And inner covers in winter? Isn't that a no-no for dripping condensation down on the cluster?


----------



## yukonjack (Mar 12, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Yes, the inner cover notch. Also, the bottom entrance is wide open with 1/2" hardware cloth as mouse guard. Plenty of ventilation. Wrapping helps if you're far enough north.


Thank you!


----------



## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

My thoughts were to use a fondant feeder like this one: http://www.bamboohollow.com/fondant-feeder.php It appears to offer the feeding option, moisture mitigation, ventilation, and isn't that expensive or complicated to build. 

As far as adding insulation goes or wrapping, I have no experience, except to say that some do and some don't for various different reasons. Much of this is climate dependent or by personal preference. I won't be wrapping, but I will have an insulated top that provides ventilation. I'll have to work the top entrance in somehow. I have yet to add good windbreak around the hive, but it's in the works. 

Also, Brushy Mountain is running their end of summer sale- that's where I'm buying the fondant. I believe it's 10% off right now.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

NewbeeInNH said:


> That sounds too easy.


Not easy enough. Put the foam board on the outside. You won't have to open the hive, the bees can't get at it to chew it up, the tele cover will not blow off because you just lifted it up, you are not limited to how thick a foam board you can use, the bottom of your cover will not get soaked because the foam is a moisture barrier. Why make this difficult?


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Not easy enough. Put the foam board on the outside. You won't have to open the hive, the bees can't get at it to chew it up, the tele cover will not blow off because you just lifted it up, you are not limited to how thick a foam board you can use, the bottom of your cover will not get soaked because the foam is a moisture barrier. Why make this difficult?


Will try that.


----------



## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Suggest you also try some perimeter insulation( I use 2 inch styrofoam), black wrap and a quilt box. Think you would be pleasantly surprised by the big spring population and early. The insulation keeps the interior warmer all winter, resulting in a bigger cluster and easier access to honey stores. The warmer interior really helps in the early spring as more brood is raised earlier. Know one beekeeper on BS who leaves insulation on until late June. 

My winter air is quite dry. Winter humidity is regional. My bottom entrance gets reduced to two 3/8 by 1/2. Top entrance is a 3/4 round hole in a feed rim and a 3/8 by 1 1/2 notch in inner cover-notch up and quilt box. This provides more than adequate ventilation in my climate to exhaust moisture. I don't need a draft going up through the interior that results in the interior temp similar to exterior temp. Bees may survive the winter but it will be a pretty small cluster by spring.

To summarize, give insulation a try and reduce those entrances to appropriate for your region and you will be pleasantly surprised by the large spring population.


----------

