# Post-mortem



## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

Thank you for keeping us updated on your fogging/OAV treatments, it will be interesting to hear you conclusions on the dead outs. Did you manage to treat your hives in a broodless period with OAV?


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Post-mortem on the 5+5+5

All the bees where in the top 5 frames there was sugar above them

And they had a nice cluster 
three frames like this
The queen  and even alittle brood 
There was honey below them about 4 frames but they didn't move down for the honey or up for the sugar.

They starved to death with store's right under them:scratch:.

This is what was once a healthy hive.

sad day.
Got 2 more to do tomorrow.
No sign of PMS or virus a few mites on the sticky board but they may have been from when I treated in OCT.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I am so sorry, but grateful for the pics. (You do a very good job on them!)

Are you sure all those bees are truly dead? I have scooped up many dead bees from my bottom boards (just to help the girls with their housekeeping when it's too cold to go out) and brought them inside to study, only to have some of them wake up and starting buzzing around. OOPS!

This winter has been cruel (I'm north of Albany, NY) but the last round of below-zero wasn't as cold as what we had in in the first round. Are you sure they made it through the first one? 

I see on the sugar some little brown stains, do you think that is diarrhea from Nosema? Might not be a bad idea to ship some bees off to the Bee Lab to be checked.

I have a little brood, too, though that surprises me. When I pulled the dead bees on the SBB I had a few pupae that had been pulled out and tossed below. 

Had they completely emptied the honey out of the box they were in? I have wondered occasionally whether adding sugar bricks (as insurance because I am new and cant't tell if my hives are "heavy enough") might not have lured my bees up to the top boxes prematurely, causing them to bypass stores that in the natural order of things they would munched up as they slowly rose from the bottom to top. But then, why didn't your bees just keep eating the sugar, instead?

Seems more likely it was the cold. I will be intersted to read what you find in the other two hives.

At least you've got some nice drawn comb to re-cycle. But I'm sure you would have been much happier to have the bees, instead. It is a sad turn of events.

(BTW, I hope you don't mind: I stole your idea of using wooden slabs as wind barriers in front of the entrances, only I use old political signs from losing candidates. It works very well, I think. Thanks!)

Enj.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Appears that they froze out.
Sucks. Sorry Glock.


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## Goran (Oct 27, 2012)

Food starvation - didn't want to leave the brood ( with brood they increased consumption), and it was cold to move below to bring honey up where they are, I presume. 
We would never put sugar in cristal as winter feed. We put just fondant - pattie ( I don't know how exact You call it). 
Minus temps by themselves are not the problem if plenty of stores available at right place.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

GLOCK said:


> Post-mortem on the 5+5+5
> All the bees where in the top 5 frames there was sugar above them


Yeah but no capped honey above them. Anything below is useless to them. Sugar won't cut it in bitter cold weather. That cluster looked big enough to me to be in a regular hive with 10 - 15 frames of honey.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Sugar won't cut it in bitter cold weather.


:scratch:

So granulated sugar offered via the _mountain camp _method is of no value in 'bitter cold weather'? Have you tested this?


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> :scratch:
> 
> So granulated sugar offered via the _mountain camp _method is of no value in 'bitter cold weather'? Have you tested this?


My thoughts to I didn't want to be rude.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I have had "mountain camped" hives starve out in winter, too, leaving plenty of unaccessed sugar inches above the dead cluster. The local commercial beek told me that a strong hive can take advantage of granulated sugar, but a weak hive can't. Thus, the mountain camp method doesn't offer help where you need it, i.e. preventing a weak hive from starving. I am just a newbie, so have only limited experience with mountain camping hives. It does work well to absorb moisture, though.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

shinbone said:


> I have had "mountain camped" hives starve out in winter, too, leaving plenty of unaccessed sugar inches above the dead cluster. The local commercial beek told me that a strong hive can take advantage of the sugar, but a weak hive can't. Thus, the mountain camp method doesn't offer help where you need it, i.e. on a weak hive. It does work well to absorb moisture, though. I am just a newbie, so have only limited experience with mountain camping hives.


This was a strong cluster with a laying queen just did not move up or down . I can not really say much for this is only my 5th year coming up so I'm still learning but they where treated and there was not much as in the way of VARROA in the hive..


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

GLOCK - BTW, great photos. The photos show a big cluster - so cluster size was not the cause of the deadout. I know you treated with OA - so mites were unlikely to be the cause. There is capped honey - so lack of food was not the cause. To my inexperienced eye, it seems the cluster got stuck on brood (as others mentioned). But, if the cluster could have moved to food, there was plenty of honey for it. I would say this is a situation where mountain camping would not, and did not, help. 

I thought you have been having some pretty cold temperatures so far this winter, so it is surprising the hive had starting brooding up.

Just speculating and trying to learn from other's experience.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Granulated sugar may help a bee colony but, at best, can only supplement stored honey. Honey is immediately ready to produce energy while granulated sugar requires conversions of its more complex sugars. Add to that honey requires little additional moisture to use while it takes considerable moisture to make granulated sugar consumable for bees. In spite of the biological moisture trapped in winter hive, not nearly enough makes its way into the sugar to make significant amounts readily useful at any given time. No matter how small or large the cluster, there is rarely enough palatable sugar, convertible to useable energy within the hive. If granulated sugar is all they have accessible, they are bound to starve.....in my opinion.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> :scratch:
> 
> So granulated sugar offered via the _mountain camp _method is of no value in 'bitter cold weather'? Have you tested this?


Test it yourself. Pull all the honey out of your hive and load up as much granulated sugar you can pack in one hive. The other hive, fill it full of honey and no granulated sugar and see what happens. I have a strong intuition.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Come on Ace, no one suggested removing honey from the hive, except _you_. If the bees have eaten the honey, it is either feed sugar or let them starve. Seems simple to me.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Test it yourself. Pull all the honey out of your hive and load up as much granulated sugar you can pack in one hive.


Actually Brian, I have done this. It was not intentional, but I did experience it. One year I had a hive go into winter with a huge cluster and I had failed to feed them properly before bad weather set in. Early winter the hive was light as a feather and had burned through most of their honey stores. 

I added sugar via the "Mountain Camp Method" and it was the only source of sugar/nectar they had all winter. The cluster settled in right under the sugar and stayed there. I would check once in a while to see how they were doing and the bees stayed under and around the sides of the sugar until spring. 

Not something I would recommend as a general practice, but it saved a hived that would have perished from beekeeper error.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I would check once in a while to see how they were doing and the bees stayed under and around the sides of the sugar until spring.


Weeks of sub freezing temperatures with no break in sight?

Come on Rader, go back to my post #7 where I made the comment, there was no honey above them.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Don't mean to butt in , can bee's use sugar in a candy board any better than mountain camp sugar .


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I don't know how long this hive was inside and may have dried out, but I don't see any condensation in it at all... Bees cannot do anything with Granulated sugar if they don't have moisture as a catalyst. 

A couple of things I would do different in a setup like this:
Never winter a nuc free standing on it's own, even wrapped. Either winter over another hive or side by side with another nuc.
I never wrap a hive like this, only insulate the top. IMO wrapping like that (especially with black wrap) causes too much of a warm up during the day when the sun is on the hive and then at night the temp plummets... Causes way too much of a gradient from day to night. The bees spread out during the day to cool brood and then have to scramble to get it covered again come night.

I tried the granulated sugar method once about 8 years ago and will never do it again. It is meant to be an emergency feeding program, not a means providing stores for wintering. My opinion was that there was plenty I could do in the fall if hives looked like they would go into winter light. Throwing dry sugar on them and calling it good isn't sufficient. For emergency feeding in the winter I use fondant which I make myself, grease patties are also a good alternative. Both provide the moisture the bees need to catalyze the sugar. With the dry sugar method you are depending on condensation being available, which if a hive is properly ventilated, isn't available. Also the colder a winter is, the dryer the air is... so when it is real cold the air will suck the moisture right out of the hive, rendering the sugar useless to the bees. Think of your hands all winter, how dry and cracked they become.


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

shinbone said:


> GLOCK - BTW, great photos. The photos show a big cluster - so cluster size was not the cause of the deadout. I know you treated with OA - so mites were unlikely to be the cause. There is capped honey - so lack of food was not the cause. To my inexperienced eye, it seems the cluster got stuck on brood (as others mentioned). But, if the cluster could have moved to food, there was plenty of honey for it. I would say this is a situation where mountain camping would not, and did not, help.
> 
> I thought you have been having some pretty cold temperatures so far this winter, so it is surprising the hive had starting brooding up.
> 
> Just speculating and trying to learn from other's experience.


I have lost 4 of 6 hives this winter, and it appears that all of them had a small amount of brood that they wouldn't leave and starved. Is there a technique to combat this?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Cub said:


> I have lost 4 of 6 hives this winter, and it appears that all of them had a small amount of brood that they wouldn't leave and starved. Is there a technique to combat this?


The problem is the temp fluctuation we have had this winter. If you could find a way to winter at a constant temp you would have the problem fixed. Some large outfits actually lease space in potato cellars out west and winter underground. It keeps the hives at a constant temp.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I added sugar via the "Mountain Camp Method" and it was the only source of sugar/nectar they had all winter.


If there wasn't a drop of leftover honey, then I'd say you got exceptionally lucky.



laketrout said:


> Don't mean to butt in , can bee's use sugar in a candy board any better than mountain camp sugar.


I don't think so.

For those who use granulated sugar or candy boards as 'insurance', as long as these methods are only considered supplemental to actual honey, then they are useful. As a primary source of winter carbohydrates, I think they are problematic, at best.

All the above....my opinion only.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Cub said:


> I have lost 4 of 6 hives this winter, and it appears that all of them had a small amount of brood that they wouldn't leave and starved. Is there a technique to combat this?


This sort of thing happens to the best of hives. It should be the exception. 4 out of 6 suggests a bigger problem. A large, vigorous cluster of bees will be more likely to extend further and be in contact with the honey supply than would a smaller cluster. Healthy bees are more likely to endure a protracted cold spell than weaker bees. If you go into winter with a large population of durable bees, then the odds favor you coming out on the other side successfully.
At the risk of replaying a broken record, how were your mite counts late last season?


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## Irmo (Jan 9, 2012)

I've lost a 5 over 5 nuc and a weak hive (small cluster), in the same conditions as the OP. I lost the weak hive in polar vortex pt. 1. They never touched the sugar and had honey in the hive that they couldn't get to. I believe the extreme cold made it impossible for the small cluster to move to the food.

The nuc was in the top of the hive and consuming the granulated sugar. I had another thread here because I was concerned that it was only January and I needed to be able to add sugar without it cascading down on the bees. I learned how to do that, but it was too late.

Mountain camp works but as an emergency feed measure only. As long as temps don't go to extremes, the cluster can consume the sugar at the edge of the cluster and pull the energy back into the center. If the temps go to extremne cold like they did here the last couple of weeks, then the sugar is in the wrong place for the cluster and they freeze/starve because they can't break cluster to go up and feed, and they don't position the cluster right on top of the sugar because it sits on top of the frames. That's what happened to my nuc. The dead cluster was centered at the top of the frame, right under the sugar. It was very similar to GLOCK's pictures, but the cluster wasn't as big.

My mite counts were very low last season. Too much cold, not enough accessible food.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Sorry for your loss Glock! Darn it!

Glock, I don't see one drop of open nectar/syrup in any cells.

My bees won't touch honey during winter. They don't fully access it until they start rearing brood in spring. I offer at least _some_ fortified syrup on every hive late fall, no matter how heavy it may or may not be. If you DON'T feed and don't have a good late fall flow, After a month or two of dearth the hive may be still heavy, but have absolutely no open feed.

Folks get routinely fooled by the weight of the hive . There is a big difference between Weight from _capped_ honey and_ available _feed for the current needs of the colony . This applies during extended dearth periods as well as winter conditions.

My climate is quite wet, so my sugar bricks have the available moisture they need to allow the colonies condensation to provide the micro climate directly under the block where it is warmer and tiny droplets form for easy accessibility. 
Sugar blocks were already exposed to moisture and although they are hardened, they seem to be more easily taken up than simple dry sugar granules.

" A primary reason for acidifying syrup is to "invert" the sugar. Cane sugar is pure sucrose. Sucrose is a 12 carbon sugar made up of two loosely joined six carbon sub-molecules (fructose and glucose). The acid disassociates the sucrose into the component parts, mimicking the nectar" (Thank you JWChestnut, for that specific info)

When exposed to the condensation from the colony, the syrup is accessible. The slow release of droplets is automatic portion control. Not allowing the queens to get stimuation to lay unseasonably, but enough to sustain a colony in times of necessity.

If I opened up a hive anywhere in my yard, right now, dead of winter, you would see honey around the outside of most frames with the center at least partially filled with _*open*_ feed. Only about 1/4-1/3 of frames will have any empty cells and those cells would be in the brood nest area right in the center. Right where they are supposed to be.

I'd rather feed a small colony syrup in fall along with their own honey stores and give them a sugar block directly above the colony in a single box with an insualted lid as close to the colony as possible to conserve heat loss. 
As upposed to just giving them a box of capped honey above the colony for winter feed sources. 

An added box of capped honey, alternated with empty drawn frames _in spring when brood rearing is under way_ is the correct timing for honey feeding in my opinion-depending on the size of the colony. Checkerboarding a large colony this way in late winter is the correct timing, but a small colony you need to be careful of too much heat loss above the cluster with a big void above them. Small colonies don't get more room until it is reliably warm weather or the colony has grown large enough to withstand occasional cold snaps.

Photo below shows a mini frame with natural capped honey on the top and outdise of the frame, fortified cane sugar syrup feed in the center. This frame was taken from the outside edge of the colony.










This frame, in photo below, was closer towards the center of the colony than the fully capped honey frame above. It shows capped honey on the top and outside , but under the bees it is _all_ open feed. 

Bees right in the center of the cluster will be on frames with mostly empty cells. Those will be the first to fill up with brood once the day length gets longer. 

They will consume the open feed and expand quickly as the queen is stimulated to lay. They eventually grab a gear in the brood rearing dept and finally consume the capped honey. Just in time too before the main flow starts. They now need all the empty comb they can get. That's the timing I prefer for my hives and the way I run them. Others may not have the same experience due to different conditions.
My fall feeding eliminates spring feeding, even in nucleolus colonies.










Below is a summertime frame. But filled with open feed.










I understand some people are against feeding. And please note, I have a lot of hives in one area that may be close to the limit for the carrying capacity of the natural available sources for nectar. 

Feeding needs to be done in consideration to your variety of bees, their genetic traits and your goals and methods in mind.
What works for me, may not work for you because of these differences.

Any short answer in beekeeping is usually an oversimplification or incomplete answer due to the nature of many many variables. 

But From looking at your frames, the short answer is: I am thinking lack of available open feed was part of your problem here. 

You were a good mite killer in 2013..you may need to become a nutritionist in 2014  If you need help PM me.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

On a second review of the images I think the problem might be that you let them consume an entire case of Coors Light


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Lauri - Great Post. Nice photos. 




Cub said:


> . . . it appears that all of them had a small amount of brood that they wouldn't leave and starved. Is there a technique to combat this?


Excellant question! Short of controlling the weather, anyone have an answer?

Our Colorado winters can be highly variable - one week the daytime highs are in the low 60's, the next week the nightime lows can approach -10F. The seems like a perfect recipe for disaster in that the higher temps can fool the bees into starting to brood, with following extreme cold that traps them on that premature brood leading to seperation from food stores and death of the hive.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> For those who use granulated sugar or candy boards as 'insurance', as long as these methods are only considered supplemental to actual honey, then they are useful. As a primary source of winter carbohydrates, I think they are problematic, at best.


I think candy boards may be better because the sugar is inverted. I've had mixed results with them. I'm now using fondant. Bees winter quite well on it with the honey in the hive. Like Bluegrass says, you need moisture for the bees to utilize the candy. Usually the condensation from the cluster will provide enough moisture.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

GLOCK said:


> Well I have lost 2 hives maybe probably even 3 in the last 2 weeks very cold here. Any way all the hives are different configurations 1is 5 over5 over 5{nuc} one is 2 DBL. deep and one is 5 over 5{nuc} .
> When I get home for work tonight I'm going to do a Post-mortem on the 5+5+5 and see what's up .
> I plan on doing all 3 but won't get to all 3 till tomorrow .
> I will post pic's and results later . I still have 22 .


That hive is wrapped pretty tight. could it be possible that condensation dripped down onto the cluster and chilled/froze them because the water vapor couldn't escape?
My hives would be soaking wet inside wrapped up tight.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Lauri said:


> Glock, I don't see one drop of open nectar/syrup in any cells.
> 
> My bees won't touch honey during winter. They don't access it until they start rearing brood in spring. I feed fortified syrup on every hive late fall, no matter how heavy it may or may not be. If you DON'T feed and don't have a good late fall flow, After a month or two of dearth the hive may be still heavy, but have absolutely no open feed.
> 
> ...


with your feeding regimen, how can you be sure they are capable of taking care of themselves and you are not promoting 'welfare bees'?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Just to be clear:
By fondant we are not talking about cake fondant that can be purchased through a bakery. That often contains flavorings which is likely not good for the bees and some contains Cream of Tarter which is poison to bees. I make my fondant at home so there is nothing but sugar, water and lipids in it. There is also a commercial product called Ambrosia that is a bee feed specific fondant.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

clyderoad said:


> That hive is wrapped pretty tight. could it be possible that condensation dripped down onto the cluster and chilled/froze them because the water vapor couldn't escape?
> My hives would be soaking wet inside wrapped up tight.


With dry sugar you want condensation in the hive... It should drip off of the cover onto the sugar, leach through the sugar dampening it so the bees can use it. The pictures show no evidence of any condensation which is why they died in my opinion... They could not use the sugar and starved.

People often make the mistake of thinking condensation is bad, but if you think about it logically, the condensation is coming from the bees, they are breathing it out like all living animals do. If you vent it out of the hive it is lost and the bees dehydrate and die. They are unable to go out and collect water from your neighbors pool in the winter.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

bluegrass said:


> With dry sugar you want condensation in the hive... It should drip off of the cover onto the sugar, leach through the sugar dampening it so the bees can use it. The pictures show no evidence of any condensation which is why they died in my opinion... They could not use the sugar and starved.


You want some condensation. 
(Dry sugar also becomes moist from high humidity, so condensation and drips are not necessary.)
Maybe Glock can tell us if that pile of bees on the bottom board are all wet. If so, to little air exchange.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

clyderoad said:


> with your feeding regimen, how can you be sure they are capable of taking care of themselves and you are not promoting 'welfare bees'?


I have over 100 colonies in one area and they make a tremendous amount of honey and are surprisingly self sufficient. My supplemental feeding is done for 'insurance' & to manipulate and control growth to build up the numbers I need for queen rearing in early spring and to feed newly made up nucs that don't have enough foragers to adequately supply feed until they have grown large enough to do so. . I'm quite satisfied they are not 'welfare bees'. I am surprised I can get away with feeding as little as I do, considering the circumstances.

Every year I figure out what I can get away with, My winter feeding and hive insualtion methods work great...but are they totally necesary? They work so well I am afraid to change. BUT, if they are not necessary, I will gradually wean myself off the' excessive care', if it is deemed to be so.

Last year my biggest problem was I didn't have enough _empty_ comb to place above the expanding brood nest in spring. Too many frames still filled with feed. If that is the case this spring I will back off some of the fall feeding in 2014. But I would rather have that problem then the alternative. Too much empty comb and dead bees.

I dislike feeding and the cost that goes with it. But the results are nothing short of _amazing_. I guess I am going to have to write something about 'Feeding to Win'. A book I bought for feeding show horses. I use those same princilpals for the bees. I don't fed a lot, but when I DO feed it is with a specific result in mind, not just feeding calories. 

Heres ow my bees look currently:










Overpopulated? LOL..maybe. But they are just right for my specific needs. Remember, My bees are Carniolan hybrids. They are great at being frugal with there stores and overwinter very well in large numbers. With Italians, you might not be able to get away with this. (Note the feeder was just left in to take up space. I am not feeding syrup in winter) 

These were started as 3 frames of bees, a virgin queen and a one gallon feeder in late May. They grew and drew out 7 frames over 8 by late summer for overwintering. They were fed 2 gallons of 1:1 in spring, 1 gallon 1:1 during late summer dearth and 1 gallon 2:1 late fall. They are allowed to keep ALL naturaly obtained feed.

Photo below is a fall photo, filled with Young healthy bees for overwintering. Feeding-or at least Offering-a large hive a _little _1:1 during extended dearth periods assures the production of a good population of overwintering bees. In my area, where there is a long inactive period during winter, young bees going into winter are a must. With the extreme cold weather this winter in many areas of the USA, I believe assuring you have a decent sized population of bees is something worth taking a little effort to do.










Feeding large hives depend on if they were made to draw out new frames or not. This photo shows a frame from a larger established hive that is backfilling at the very end of the flow. No real threat of swarming here, they are just showing they are expecting the upcoming dearth and are the good little 'preppers' they were bred to be. If I saw this frame in the beginning of the main flow, I would probably break them up into nucs immediatly. Not all large hives will be interested in dearth syrup. It is usually the ones that had to draw out a lot of new frames that will take it up if offered. 










Just like anything in beekeeping, feeding is a topic that is not a simple clear cut 'yes, I do it' or 'no, I don't' . There are many variables to it that need to be considered.


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> :scratch:
> 
> So granulated sugar offered via the _mountain camp _method is of no value in 'bitter cold weather'? Have you tested this?


Personally....and just my opinion. I don't think dry sugar was the issue for a cpl reasons. It's great for drawing out moisture,it's a good top insulator and it's great energy for them. I use it and love it. And it's turned into syrup in spring....win,win,win. 
I think they just froze and starved due to not able to break cluster to eat due to the cold. I lost a nuc that looks just like that while the rest of the nuts in line are just fine. U never can tell...just a bummer all the way around. These polar drifts we have been getting are just brutal to everything. Hang in there and pray. Keep those lids on and wait it out.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I agree with the previous speculation that there wasn't enough moisture in the hive for them to use the sugar. They didn't just starve they dehydrated. This might not be too unusual where there are long stretches of cold dry arctic weather, here in the south too much moisture is a much more common issue.

I feed mt camp sugar every year and have very low winter losses - so of course I think it's great. But clearly the ideal thing would be for the bees to always have access to lots of natural honey - even if you still do mt camp feeding.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

clyderoad said:


> You want some condensation.
> (Dry sugar also becomes moist from high humidity, so condensation and drips are not necessary.)
> Maybe Glock can tell us if that pile of bees on the bottom board are all wet. If so, to little air exchange.


In winter relative humidity is low unless you have a front coming through like right now. My current humidity is 87%. If I were to check it later this week when the forecast is clear and a high of 10 deg F it will be close to zero humidity. You can't get wet sugar from air that holds no water.

I just checked Lauri's current humidity and it is 96% which is what I would expect from and area like Washington state. I can see why dry sugar works well for her, in New England it is much less of a sure thing when we repetitively have cold/dry arctic air moving in in waves.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

bluegrass said:


> In winter relative humidity is low unless you have a front coming through like right now. My current humidity is 87%. If I were to check it later this week when the forecast is clear and a high of 10 deg F it will be close to zero humidity. You can't get wet sugar from air that holds no water.


you'll never see close to zero relative humidity in Danbury. And I won't see it here, and neither will Snow Shoe PA. 
But I understand the concept.
Glock is the only one that can offer an assessment of hive moisture.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Sugar in the hive does not stay "dry" it absorbs moisture and the bees produce a lot of moisture. I think we all agree honey is better, but they can eat the dry sugar as well as the candy in my experience. I haven't done the candy, but it's a popular method around here and I've seen hives that had a "candy lid" and have had my hives with dry sugar. The only difference I see is the amount of work to make the candy...


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Some of my best learning experiences have come out of bad experiences. They seem horrible at the time, but are many times worth it in the end because of the knowledge you gain.

When I first started with bees I bought 20 nucs from one producer and 25 packages from another. All installed at the same time, all given the exact same care. By late summer all 20 nucs were dead, all 25 packages thrived and overwintered. A lot of $$ lost, a lot of frustration and stress. But am I a better beekeeper because of it? There is absolutely no doubt. With that number of colonies to compare to each other, I figured out the problems and was able to avoided them in the future. That loss was probably the best thing that could happen to me. Although it sure didn't seem like it at the time. 

If I had purchased one or two hives, I would have likely been in the same position many others are in annually. Dead hives every winter and blaming myself for mistakes.

Remember people commonly fail because they fail to identify the correct problem. 
Lack of open nectar is my first thought from your photos, but it may not be the only factor in your loss.

So Glock, get the gun out of your mouth and regroup. All is not lost. It just seems like it right now. Trust me on this one.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

My post posted twice..not sure why. Operator error I guess.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Lauri said:


> My bees won't touch honey during winter.


This strikes me as very strange. That's all most of mine live on all winter. And the feral colonies....what do they eat in winter?


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

I am starting to believe Nutrition is key.


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

beemandan said:


> This sort of thing happens to the best of hives. It should be the exception. 4 out of 6 suggests a bigger problem. A large, vigorous cluster of bees will be more likely to extend further and be in contact with the honey supply than would a smaller cluster. Healthy bees are more likely to endure a protracted cold spell than weaker bees. If you go into winter with a large population of durable bees, then the odds favor you coming out on the other side successfully.
> At the risk of replaying a broken record, how were your mite counts late last season?


Beeman,

5 of my 6 were cutouts, and 1 was a swarm. To be honest, 2 of the cutouts were too late in the season, but the property owners were going to spray them if they were not removed. Neither of those 2 built up enough, and should have been combined for winter. One of these also had a mouse in it before I changed my entrance setup. My fault for being a rookie. 

The other two that died had a total of 1 mite in August, and I found 3 total mites in the post mortem check. Both had fairly large numbers, but they wouldn't move off a few dozen brood cells and couldn't reach any stores. There was at least 35 lbs left in one hive and 20 lbs in the other.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Lauri said:


> Sorry for your loss Glock! Darn it!
> 
> Glock, I don't see one drop of open nectar/syrup in any cells.
> 
> ...


I am not familiar with this theory and fail to see the difference between the two.
What is the difference? isn't capped honey 'available' food for the bees?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

beemandan said:


> This strikes me as very strange. That's all most of mine live on all winter. And the feral colonies....what do they eat in winter?


It's likely my strain of Carni/ Wild collected hybrids. They won't touch their capped honey stores during late summer dearth ether. They would rather shut the queen down somewhat and not have tons of brood to feed.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Lauri said:


> They won't touch their capped honey stores during late summer dearth ether. They would rather shut the queen down somewhat and not have tons of brood to feed.


And in winter.....they'd starve rather than uncap and consume honey? That runs counter to everything I've seen....some strange genetics you have Lauri.....or I should say your bees have


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

beemandan said:


> And in winter.....they'd starve rather than uncap and consume honey? That runs counter to everything I've seen....some strange genetics you have Lauri.....or I should say your bees have


I can't count how many posts have been made the last few years from countless people (Like Glock) where colonies are dead,_ right next to plenty of honey stores_. 

If the weather is cold and the colony can't break the cluster to move up or over to capped honey, they will starve.
I don't think it is strange at all. Understanding the needs of the colony at all seasonal stages, the way they feed and WHY they feed has been an importaint part of my management methods.

Capped honey is not as readily available as open feed nectar/syrup. Open feed has a different effect on the bees than capped honey. Plenty of threads about it if you search.
If you had a lenghty late summer dearth and no fall flow, where will your bees get the nectar to cluster on/near? What will stimulate the queen to lay to produce young bees late summer for overwintering? 

It's been my experience as well. Dramatically so. Dramatic enough I've learned to use it to my advantage and to the reliable overwintering and productive success of the my bees. 

With the extreme cold this year, I think many people will unfortunately find this to be true.


Are my bees strange? No more than I am...Wait! Don't answer that!


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

Hi All, mountain camp modified with a few ounces of lemonjuice added adds moisture and changes the ph of the sugar --does work. We are in climate zone 4 and it was very cold the last few weeks. Most of our bees did very well. lost a few dinks. Winter loss 8% so far on 600 colonies.(it aint over just yet!) They actually winter better on the sugar than goldenrod honey, because they don't need as many cleansing flights. We also place a piece of aluminum foil over the sugar to reflect heat from the cluster and to trap addtl moisture to help the bees handle the dry sugar. 
Glock, it happens to all of us. keep trying.!
Nick:banana: Spring will bee her in 6 weeks!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> If the weather is cold and the colony can't break the cluster to move up or over to capped honey, they will starve.


Why do they have to break cluster to move if they are in contact with honey and there is honey next to them with no gap? Maybe your bees are hooked on junk food so they make bad decisions.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> My bees won't touch honey during winter.


Things are getting curiouser and curiouser....


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

Lauri said:


> I can't count how many posts have been made the last few years where colonies are dead,_ right next to plenty of honey stores_. If the weather is cold and the colony can't break the cluster to move up or over to capped honey, they will starve.


Walt Wright said the same thing as you are saying about the bees needing uncapped nectar in the cells of the brood nest in the winter in his nectar management manuscript. If I remember correctly he said the bees live on the nectar during the winter and raise brood in the cells as they empty them. And eat the honey after they decide to not swarm to raise brood for the flow.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Sorry I don't have time to answer more fully. I'm making big fat chocolate chip cookies for the local bee meeting. Got to keep my friends hooked on junk food so they make bad decisions.


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## Goran (Oct 27, 2012)

What an odd theory.. Nectar.. and in brood cells.. Where bees locate cluster then?


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

beemandan said:


> Granulated sugar may help a bee colony but, at best, can only supplement stored honey. Honey is immediately ready to produce energy while granulated sugar requires conversions of its more complex sugars. Add to that honey requires little additional moisture to use while it takes considerable moisture to make granulated sugar consumable for bees. In spite of the biological moisture trapped in winter hive, not nearly enough makes its way into the sugar to make significant amounts readily useful at any given time. No matter how small or large the cluster, there is rarely enough palatable sugar, convertible to useable energy within the hive. If granulated sugar is all they have accessible, they are bound to starve.....in my opinion.


I am new but have to say many experienced and successful bee keepers have posted on the use merits of solid sugar for over wintering.
If they are bound to starve regardless it would seem an exercise in futility that I can't experienced bee folks doing.

Thank you Glock for the great photos. Foe newbies photos and videos are a huge help with the learning curve.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

beemandan said:


> If there wasn't a drop of leftover honey, then I'd say you got exceptionally lucky.
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> ...


My hives had honey frames going into winter. In Nov I gave them sugar bricks above the 2nd deep. Several...especially the stronger hives immediately went up and sat on and around the bricks. They seemed to prefer it to their honey stores. 
Should no extra stores be put on until the honey frames are empty?


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

I have hives that have survived on nothing but granulated sugar for over a month. I am guessing that the wrapping trapped in too much heat, thus the brood rearing and lack of mobility. I have found that once the cluster moves to the top and is directly under the dry sugar there is always enough moisture to convert it to a hard block of "candy" and easily consumed by the bees. My problem this winter with the duration and severity is that my dead outs consumed ALL the sugar and starved. My fault for not feeding enough in the fall and not checking on the sugar earlier, but in my defense I was out of the country for 3 weeks, but it still hurts.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Sugar or sugar blocks have one thing in their favor. Location, Location, Location. 
OK, three things.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I have concerns for the coming week. It has been above freezing here for a couple of weeks. Bulbs are pushing up and honeysuckle is starting to bud. Pussy Willows are out. Now it is cold again and expected to sit at -11 for a couple more weeks! My bees will be so confused


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Lauri said:


> Sorry I don't have time to answer more fully. I'm making big fat chocolate chip cookies for the local bee meeting. Got to keep my friends hooked on junk food so they make bad decisions.


Give them some of that "Kool-aid" with the electrolytes too!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

BeeCurious said:


> Give them some of that "Kool-aid" with the electrolytes too!


LOL, I do have flax seed, nuts and whole wheat flour in the cookies though. I can't stand to be totally unhealthy.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sterling said:


> Walt Wright said the same thing as you are saying about the bees needing uncapped nectar in the cells of the brood nest in the winter in his nectar management manuscript. If I remember correctly he said the bees live on the nectar during the winter and raise brood in the cells as they empty them. And eat the honey after they decide to not swarm to raise brood for the flow.


I have not been able to find Walt Wrights comments regarding "bees needing uncapped nectar in the cells of the brood nest in the winter". I may have missed it, but find it a stretch.
Please direct me to these comments, or if Walt sees this post maybe he will comment.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Lauri said:


> Understanding the needs of the colony at all seasonal stages, the way they feed and WHY they feed has been an importaint part of my management methods.
> 
> Capped honey is not as readily available as open feed nectar/syrup. Open feed has a different effect on the bees than capped honey. Plenty of threads about it if you search.


Please direct me to these threads.

Is there any reference available to justify your comments.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

clyderoad said:


> Please direct me to these threads.
> 
> Is there any reference available to justify your comments.


Do I need to Justify my comments? I just took time out of my day to tell you what works for me.

I happened to find the link quickly.

In the future you need to do you own research.

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/seasonal-colony-survival-traits/

"OCTOBER
Operational changes in the Fall are recognized in the literature. The colony closes out brood rearing for the year. The colony that gets it right has all the brood emerged in time to fill brood cells with nectar. If brood cells are vacated while field nectar is available, the whole cavity (hive) can be filled with Winter stores. In this area, most colonies are successful in this preparation of the Winter broodnest. In more northerly locations, where Winter descends more rapidly, the beekeeper may be forced to feed in the Fall.

****
I have not done this to follow simply Walts methods. I have done it because in my area and for my conditions it works beautifully.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Lauri said:


> Do I need to Justify my comments? I just took time out of my day to tell you what works for me.
> 
> You need to do you own research.


Slow down.
I have read your post hoping to understand what works for you- time out of MY day reading it.

What I still hope to understand is how you came to know this:
"Capped honey is not as readily available as open feed nectar/syrup. Open feed has a different effect on the bees than capped honey."
Care to explain?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

With regard to Cub's post #20. I have been thinking about a comment Michael Bush made, something to the effect that colonies that gamble big either win big or lose big. 
The context, as I remember, was that if in a mild year with an early spring a colony starts raising brood earlier than it's neighbors it will likely have a larger population and make more honey when the flow arrives; Yet if that colony starts raising brood early, then spring doesn't come (there is a cold snap) the bees eat themselves out of house and home - they starve out.
So what's a beekeeper to do? One answer is to keep a range of bees, some that are conservative and some that are more speculative in nature.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@Bluegrass:

Could post your fondant recipe and instructions, please? Thanks!

Enjambres


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Removed by poster


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

@enjambres:

Obviously I'm not Bluegrass, but here's my recipe in case it might help:



> To make bee candy, for best results use pure cane sugar.
> 
> 1. Use 1 part water to 4 parts sugar. 1 cup of sugar weighs 8 ounces.
> 2. Add 1/4 tsp. lemon juice per pound of sugar. The lemon juice helps to invert the sugar as it cooks and will be evaporated.
> ...


This is adapted from an old bee book's recipe--so old that I've forgotten which one! but I have used it successfully for a very long time. For reference a pint of water weighs one pound, so I generally use 2 pints of water, 8 pounds of sugar, and a teaspoon of lemon juice.

HTH

Rusty


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Wow I most say lots of reply's thank you all.
Any why there was not a lot of condensation in the hive I had holes in the top shim if you look in the pic you'll see one and I do be leave I had two more in the back this hive was pretty healthy they just would not move up to the sugar . This was my first post-mortem so it's all kinda new to me but I think they just would not move away from the brood with honey only one box down and sugar just a sheet of paper away just makes me wonder . I still have a DBL. deep that I need to do a post-mortem on and I'm curious as what happed to it all my DBL. deeps where strong and I had treated them so I don't think PMS or virus is a issue.
Plus I was in all my hives in the fall making sure all was well .
I have only lost 3 out of 25 so far so I'm not that disappointed but it sure would have been nice to get 100% survival owell next year.
This is only my 5th spring coming up and I have been building my apiary for the last 4years and it's at about the size I want I'd like 15 production hives and 50 nucs . I have a sustainable apiary{have not bought bees in 2 years} and I am isolated so things can only get better .
And yes I will learn bee nutrition I do think that is part of the answer to healthy bees .
I think I'm doing ok and spring is right around the corner and man do I need it!!
Thank you all.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Glock I am surprised they had active brood rearing this time of year. Or perhaps they have been dead a while? Maybe the genetics of the hive was better for a different climate than yours. They looked dark, what type were they?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

And you must remember, bees need water to consume honey properly as well.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

Although I've read a lot, this is entirely new for me and it makes sense.
I was a little worried in autumn that my bees did not capp the honey on the center frames. Actually they clustered right on those frames. They barely eaten so far because they haven't got into the brood rearing too much.
And another thing: bees tend to nest in the second brood box because it's warmer for them. In Autumn I've made a mistake on rearanging the frames in a double 5 nuc with the honey reserves above them and some bellow. The result was somehow unexpected: they clustered in the top box... so all honey bellow being useless. So for the future I'll try not to interfere too much on the frame arangement where it's not the case.
I also fed them in autumn just to make sure they have enough to pass the winter. Anyway... the hard part is just comming so God help the bees!

Regards,
Cristian


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

clyderoad said:


> Slow down.
> I have read your post hoping to understand what works for you- time out of MY day reading it.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Lauri said:


> Glock I am surprised they had active brood rearing this time of year. Or perhaps they have been dead a while? Maybe the genetics of the hive was better for a different climate than yours. They looked dark, what type were they?


The hive has been dead for only a week at the most. And all my bees are home grown so there genetics are for this climate. I have American bees.
I may do the post-mortem today on my DBL.deep that died out the same week and see what's up and if they had brood this hive was strong also.
Lauri== I think your one of the beekeepers here at BS that really knows what they are doing and the pics show they are always nice to see.
Maybe you should write a book I'd buy it I think it would be much better then well er a never mind.:shhhh: Have a great day


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

GLOCK said:


> . And all my bees are home grown so there genetics are for this climate. I have American bees.


When people ask what type of bees I keep....I tell them mine have no pedigree....they're mongrels. I know I'm a lot further south than you but mine have been actively rearing brood for a month. When our daytime temps were single digits....some queens were obviously laying.


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

GLOCK said:


> Lauri== I think your one of the beekeepers here at BS that really knows what they are doing and the pics show they are always nice to see.
> Maybe you should write a book I'd buy it...


Agreed.
From my 3 years experience in beekeeping, starting out & losing as Treatment Free, I am buying into the Treatment and Feed to Win style now.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I just thought of this, and I don't think it has been mentioned already in the thread. Nosema causes bees to not consume feed - apparently nosema ceranae does not produce the tell tale diarrheal signs that nosema apis does. Could that be what happened? 

I don't think that this hive is typical for one that secumbs to nosema ceranae (dwindling population) but apparently it can kill very quickly - 8 days - if the hive developed the disease while confined due to cold temps....

Just a thought.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

scorpionmain said:


> Agreed.
> From my 3 years experience in beekeeping, starting out & losing as Treatment Free, I am buying into the Treatment and Feed to Win style now.



Don't forget "Treatment reduced" Why does it have to be treatment free or T. How about a happy medium? I say I am treatment free...right up to the point I have to treat. The cleaner I keep my hives the less & less I have to treat. Better genetics in the hive, the stronger and healthier my bees are, the more they can keep the mite load in check,_ Naturally_

Treating for mites not a vicious cycle like I believe medicating is. Treatment can be applied _only occasionally_ when specific conditions are met. For example: Early brood rearing or continual brood rearing like the bees in Calif. are doing this year with there extraordinary warm winter, is also a recipe for mite reproduction. Hives with a good cool temps during winter with a good brood break will be less likely to have a mite load that needs late winter/early spring treatment attention. Some years I may treat, some years I won't. Learn to read the hive and the conditions in which it is existing, both _before and after_ you get it. Take the appropriate action for the situation. Every year that goes by I have to treat less and less. I'm down to just a small few hives this fall and most were colonies that were NOT from my oun yard. (collected Swarms). Far better than I ever expected.

Here's a photo off the internet. Remember most mites in the hive are UNDER the capped brood which makes them difficult to detect. 










I prefer to be treatment free, but I won't be so stubborn I will allow a hive to perish if it needs help. I will treat if necessary and also determine why that hive had a load to begin with. Requeening with VSH hybrids has been the best option for me. Brood breaks and simulating swarms is my style of choice. The very large hives in several deeps? I don't have problems. But I keep my eye on them for any imbalances within the hive that may allow mites to flourish unchecked.

If you read the thread about the 'Worst mistake you ever made" Many posts comment about the mistake of 'Not treating for mites when they first got their colonies" 
Understand how your colonies were handled _Before_ you got them will help you understand how to _Gradually_ change them over to a treatment reduced hive. Suddenly withholding something they are use to or have possibly grown dependent on is also a recipe for problems.

You may find it interesting, my worst hives for mites this fall were the wild swarms I caught and a cut out of a big cedar tree. But also interesting to note those HUGE colonies that are overwintering in 3 deeps appered to be totally uneffected by the (Higher than I normally see, which is next to nothing) mite load. An interesting, possibly hardy tolerent trait that when crossed with VSH genetics, may prove to be a good self sufficient cross.

They are overwintering very well and 2014 daughters will be evaluated for their traits and mite tolerence/hygenic nature, etc.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why does it have to be treatment free or T. How about a happy medium? 

If only it could be a happy medium. But instead you totally disrupt the natural balance of the colony's ecosystem when you treat so you really can't have a happy medium.


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

Last night at our clubs monthly meeting the speaker was Mike Haney. Mike raises and sells VSH & Pol-line queens, Ridge Top apiaries, . He was ask about his mite treatment methods. His reply was that he checked his hives twice a year and if the mite levels in a hive was above the accepted limit he killed the queen and gave them another one. Accepted limit is my term because I can't remember his exact words.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

So how does this information help new beekeepers with new colonies that have mite loads? You _have_ to start somewhere. 

I'm not promoting treatments, not saying a person should be treatment free. I'm not getting involved in THIS debate. I've seen it before -gets out of hand and turns ugly. 
Everyone's circumstances are different. Goals are different. Environment is different. 

Choices made by the beekeepers are bound to vary and are many times made due to circumstances beyond their control. _*Getting *_control should be everyone's priority, no matter what methods they are comfortable with and choose to use.

Personally, I wouldn't do the dis-service to a good mated VSH queen by dropping her in a recently purchased mite infested colony and expect miracles. Yet I do strive to be as treatment free as possible. In my opinion, mite treatments are _sometimes _necessary to give the colony and that new queen a fighting chance to get established and carry on in a more treatment free environment.

Unless you use a virgin queen and give that new colony a _good _brood break. But what beginners are going to do that with a new nuc? None that I have ever met.
Treatment free is a great goal, but it's not one that happens over night or on it's own.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> _*Getting *_control should be everyone's priority,


What seems odd to me is that when people treat they think they are in control even when they still lose hives to varroa.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

And when you don't treat you lose a lot more hives in my experience.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Being in control of your _*wallet*_ is important too. One must do what they think is necessary and correct for their situation.

No one who gives advise here is going to buy folks new bees. We are simply sharing what works for us and methods we believe in. 

It's up to YOU to figure out what methods you are comfortable using. YOU are the one who will benefit from self-sustaining colonies or have to pay for new bees....No one else.

My Advise? 
Take Advise with a grain of salt. Consider the 20 different opinions that are usually given and apply what you think is right, adding your own ideas along with the mix. 

That's called _*Custom Beekeeping*_
It's the only way to go.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

camero7 said:


> And when you don't treat you lose a lot more hives in my experience.


Yes, of course that is the way it is. One philosophy is working towards a natural sustainability and the other is building a dependency that can't win in the long run.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird, have you conducted the postmortem inspection on your dead outs?


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> >Why does it have to be treatment free or T. How about a happy medium?
> 
> If only it could be a happy medium. But instead you totally disrupt the natural balance of the colony's ecosystem when you treat so you really can't have a happy medium.


Better a disrupted natural balance and living bees than a dead hive. Save the hive, change the genetics, and live to try over! That's my motto. Can't fix a dead hive. Which is why I treat when I have to. This year I didn't have to. Next year? Who knows! All I know for sure is that dead hives can't produce any more honey, so why let them die when you can save them? If they're in that much trouble, obviously they need some changes made. Again, you can't do that if everybody's dead. But after treatment, you CAN analyze what went wrong and take steps to correct it so it won't happen again next year. 

JMO

Rusty


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Better a disrupted natural balance and living bees than a dead hive.

In my experience most people are treating "just in case" which disrupts the ecology and often results in the bees dying, probably because of the treatment or struggling to survive despite it. Considering the statisitcs on survival treated and untreated, I don't understand why anyone assumes the chances of survival are better when treated. In my experience the chances of survival are better when untreated.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> One philosophy is working towards a natural sustainability and the other is building a dependency that can't win in the long run.


Acebird - This is a huge statement and you say it as if it is accepted wisdom. IMHO, this is nothing more than your personal belief and you have nothing beyond your gut feeling to support this comment.

For example, this clause: "_One philosophy is working towards a natural sustainability_" assumes the bees will eventually beat Varroa on their own. Yet you have no way to know whether this is true. Plenty of species go extinct ever year because they were not able to overcome one or more factors which negatively affected that species. We have no indication that the bees as a species can overcome Varroa. Just because we want the bees to adapt to Varroa doesn't mean they will.

Those who throw a bunch of chemicals into their hives willy-nilly and hope for the best have their own problems, but it seems to me that many Treatment Free proponents can't distinguish dreams from hard reality. 

Turning off one's brain and hoping for rainbows and butterflies is a coping mechanism, not a strategy.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

shinbone said:


> IMHO, this is nothing more than your personal belief and you have nothing beyond your gut feeling to support this comment.


There's an epidemic of this going around. 
I recently told a new beekeeper that the three biggest obstacles to becoming a successful beekeeper today are, varroa mites, pesticides and awful internet advice.....not necessarily in that order.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>... assumes the bees will eventually beat Varroa on their own. Yet you have no way to know whether this is true.

But they are surviving quite well on their own. I CAN know that it is true. You are welcome to come see my beeyard where they are survivng just fine on their own.

> Plenty of species go extinct ever year because they were not able to overcome one or more factors which negatively affected that species. We have no indication that the bees as a species can overcome Varroa.

We have plenty. There are plenty of feral bees around. There are plenty of treatment free beekeepers who have been doing it for a decade or more. We have A LOT of indication that the bees as a species can overcome Varroa.

>Those who throw a bunch of chemicals into their hives willy-nilly and hope for the best have their own problems, but it seems to me that many Treatment Free proponents can't distinguish dreams from hard reality. 

I have some healthy and real treatment free bees in my beeyard... they are not dreams.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Michael - I have no doubt that you and others do have treatment free bees. However, that a few have met with success is no indicaton that it is universally possible.

Also, of those who are treatment free, how many are doing more than simply surviving from year-to-year with losses they have figured out how to absorb? For example, how many treatment free beekeepers produce reasonable amounts of honey for harvest from a majority of their hives? I think once "success" is defined as more that just surviving year-to-year, the number of "successful" treatment free beekeepers drops another order of magnitude to become a very small minority of the beekeeping community.

Not saying the Treaters have all, or any, of the answers, and thoughtlessly dumping chemicals into a hive is obviously an already bankrupt strategy. It just seems to me that many of the vehemently vocal Anti-Treaters are actually just clueless dreamers who have no idea whether their chosen path has any chance of working.

"_You are welcome to come see my beeyard where they are survivng just fine on their own._" BTW, I would love to visit your apiary sometime. I am sure I would learn a tremendous amount.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

shinbone said:


> Acebird - This is a huge statement and you say it as if it is accepted wisdom. IMHO, this is nothing more than your personal belief and you have nothing beyond your gut feeling to support this comment.


Just a few million years of past history...

For example, this clause: "_One philosophy is working towards a natural sustainability_" assumes the bees will eventually beat Varroa on their own. [/QUOTE]

Yes, if they don't the species will die out.


> Plenty of species go extinct ever year because they were not able to overcome one or more factors which negatively affected that species.


In many cases it is the result of human intervention upsetting the environment in a very short span of time.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> Acebird, have you conducted the postmortem inspection on your dead outs?


NO, what is the hurry?


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

Is there a BeeLab that does detailed reports about pesticide that is in the wax and honey that kills the colony?

This is the statement from the Beelab in Beltsville Md:
We do not analyze samples (bees, wax comb, pollen, etc.) for the presence of viruses or pesticide residue.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> In many cases it is the result of human intervention upsetting the environment in a very short span of time.


Dinosaurs an example of that?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

enjambres said:


> @Bluegrass:
> 
> Could post your fondant recipe and instructions, please? Thanks!
> 
> Enjambres


Sure:
I dump 5 lb bag of sugar in a pot
I add 2.75 cups of water
I add 2 tbs of white vinegar (acid for inverting the sugar)
I stir until combined and turn of the heat. Stir until it comes to a boil and then time for 15 minutes.
Pour out onto a cookie sheet and allow to cool to a point that it becomes tacky. Scrape off of sheet and into stand mixer (kitchen aid with a bread hook) Kneed slowly until it begins to appear white in color. You can add a couple of table spoons of Crisco and a few drops of essential oils at this point and mix in. You can also add protein supplements at this point as well if you are building up for spring. (soy or rye flour) 

I lay it out on wax paper and allow it to fully cool before placing on hives.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael - I have no doubt that you and others do have treatment free bees. However, that a few have met with success is no indicaton that it is universally possible.

There are not a few. There are thousands.

>Also, of those who are treatment free, how many are doing more than simply surviving from year-to-year with losses they have figured out how to absorb?

Seems to me that everyone has losses and they have to figure out how to absorb them. 

> For example, how many treatment free beekeepers produce reasonable amounts of honey for harvest from a majority of their hives?

A hard statistic to gather. But I know of several who make their sole living at it. 

>I think once "success" is defined as more that just surviving year-to-year, the number of "successful" treatment free beekeepers drops another order of magnitude to become a very small minority of the beekeeping community.

I think hobbiest, whether treating or not, fall into that category of not making much of a "profit".

>Not saying the Treaters have all, or any, of the answers, and thoughtlessly dumping chemicals into a hive is obviously an already bankrupt strategy. It just seems to me that many of the vehemently vocal Anti-Treaters are actually just clueless dreamers who have no idea whether their chosen path has any chance of working.

As do many of the "treaters". A newbee is a newbee and they have no choice but to listen to someone and assume they chose well.

> BTW, I would love to visit your apiary sometime. I am sure I would learn a tremendous amount. 

If you're going to be in the area, drop me a line and we'll work it out.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

BeeCurious said:


> Acebird, have you conducted the postmortem inspection on your dead outs?





Acebird said:


> NO, what is the hurry?


If the colonies were mine, I'd be interested in knowing if they starved... 

If you're certain that the living colony couldn't benefit from any honey that might be remaining in the dead outs then I guess there isn't any rush.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

GLOCK said:


> Maybe you should write a book I'd buy it I think it would be much better then well er a never mind.:shhhh: Have a great day


There are only over 2000 beekeeping books currently in print in English. How many do you think we need?


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## Harvey Wray (Nov 14, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >Why does it have to be treatment free or T. How about a happy medium?
> 
> If only it could be a happy medium. But instead you totally disrupt the natural balance of the colony's ecosystem when you treat so you really can't have a happy medium.


Is there any scientific study been done that will suport this.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

bluegrass said:


> There are only over 2000 beekeeping books currently in print in English. How many do you think we need?


I agree we really don't need another beekeeping book I was just saying 
Lauri is a good beekeeper if not better then some of the bee gods we have today and I bet if she did write a book on beekeeping it would well illustrated up to date unlike a lot of bee books out there and ones yet to come. I've seen her post on BS and there always way better then most she is up to date so I'm was just saying bet she write a better book then well er never mind.:shhhh:


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I'll tell you a little story. I had a mare I raised from a filly. She was well trained and responded to me very well. When I worked her in a circle around me she would walk, trot, canter, gallop, slide to a stop and reverse, then come to me..
I had a gal that wanted to use her, but when she tried to work her, my mare wouldn't respond at all. I was shocked the gal couldn't get her to do anything I could. I realized as I gave her verbal commands I also use body language that she had picked up on and was responding to. Body language I never realized I was doing. 
I showed the gal what I was doing, but she ignored my method because that wasn't the way she worked horses. Of course the mare never did respond to her because the gal wasn't speaking her language. 

My point is, when someone is successful in beekeeping, it is likely may be doing things that are very important to their success they may not be considering or even know they are doing and therefore not relaying to you. They may have environmental advantages they may not realize, etc. 

Those methods may be misinterpreted or details ignored because of a preconceived ideas.

The success Michael Bush has had and the methods he advocates, may or may not be achievable in every location. The methods I have come to rely on and believe in may or may not work for everyone.


In my opinion, treatment free is something that can be achieved with work, time and experience...depending on your variables and your level of skill. 

It can be achieved faster with a healthy, _correctly manage_d treatment free starter nuc and good mentoring, but that is very hard to find.

Buying packages instead of nucs and requeening with local genetics is what I would do if I was starting over. Installing them on new frames and feeding to get them started. Never on frames that came from outside my own yard.

But Most folks buy nucs as their starter bees after pollination services end. After being bred and raised in the commercial industry, in my opinion, it is likely sudden change in management methods may cause more harm than good. 
It is classic for a new beekeeper to just do nothing and call it treatment free. They will do this year after year after year, refusing to treat, yet feel good about buying another nuc that may have been exposed to who knows what from who knows where. These bees may have been treated up the wahoo prior to their new home. Would one more mite treatment really hurt?

There is no reason to discredit one method over the other. They should both be of benefit in some regard in your consideration for developing your own style.


Michael advocates small cell foundationless and other methods to become treatment free. 

I advocate being proactive in making sure your new colony is genetically predisposed to your specific climate and for your specific goals, being sure any frames of comb from unknown apiaries are cycled out of the hive asap and to treat for mites as soon as you get your nuc, (if it came from an unknown source). THEN work toward the goal of treatment free. 


My preferred organic styles of managing mites such as correctly timed brood breaks and shook/simulated swarms are likely to be too complicated or intimidating to be highly successful for beginners. They are just too inexperienced to achieve any reliable level of success. My ability to raise my own VSH queens are an advantage not many people (Especially the inexperienced) have at their disposal.

If you consider your first few colonies an *Educational expense* and not get attached to them you are far better off. You'll never learn anything by watching the outside of the box. Try what you think will work and see what happens. No matter if you make a mistalke, you will have the benefit of new drawn frames that will be of great advantage next year. 


Heck, I can't even get very experienced beekeepers to try virgin queens. I hold out a virgin queen and they look at me like I have two heads and start backing away.....
Now who's afraid of a little bug?










This is another good example though. I have had a high level of success with directly introducing virgins into the mating nucs so I don't see why so many won't try it. But it is because of the repuation of a low level of success by previous beekeepers that scares them off. I am obviously doing something different. I just hope I can relay my methods correctly and fully so everyone can benefit.

And that is all Michael and I are trying to do. Relay our methods so all can benefit.

Glock, 
Once you write a book, it is set in STONE. I have become rather fond of the edit option on the internet  But you are correct, it will be in FULL COLOR when it does come out.


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## Waggle (Mar 7, 2013)

Put me first in line for your book .


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> But you are correct, it will be in FULL COLOR when it does come out.


I will most likely need a larger coffee table....


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Lauri said:


> But you are correct, it will be in FULL COLOR when it does come out.


Interesting point - There are many great books on beekeeping available today. But few have lots of photographs. Probably due to the cost of publishing a book with many photos vs the niche market of beekeeping. However, a how-to beekeeping book with lots of great photos would be unique and would sell very well, I would think.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is there any scientific study been done that will suport this.

It seems it took CCD before too many people got too interested in what was living in and on the bees. There are a few studies on the topic. Martha Gillam noted changes in the balance of the flora of the gut changing even when nectar changed from one source to another. The one on the biofilm noted changes from sugar syrup as well as antibiotics. The antibiotic one shows that in 25 years of not treating the flora had not recovered.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188
http://mbio.asm.org/content/3/6/e00377-12.full
Synopsis of the above: http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index....tibiotic-resistant-gut-microbes-in-honey-bees
http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/gilliam-archives


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Michael - Thanks for the links. Interesting stuff.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Once you write a book, it is set in STONE.

Sort of, yes. I see that C.C. Miller changed his book as he rereleased it about once a decade and Jay Smith changed a lot of his ideas as he went along (and published a subsequent book), but both will still get quoted on what they wrote in their first book even though they changed their minds...


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >Once you write a book, it is set in STONE.
> 
> Sort of, yes. I see that C.C. Miller changed his book as he rereleased it about once a decade and Jay Smith changed a lot of his ideas as he went along (and published a subsequent book), but both will still get quoted on what they wrote in their first book even though they changed their minds...


I think CC.MILLERS BOOKS 
JAY SMITH book are way out dated .
I bought your book Classic queen rearing compendium .
It was ok I guess but old pics old writings just very boring plus it make ya think queen rearing is something hard and ya need all this old Literature you do not queen rearing is simple it's as easy as keeping bees some just want you to think it's hard .
The bee keepers of the 2000 are much more in tune with todays problems Like JAY EVANS/MARLA SPIVAK/Don Kuchenmeister and that's just a few and then there's the today beekeeper's here on BS that's where the true info is here on BS I like beekeepers that can talk treating and no treating and don't think one way is worst then another.
The why I see it I have my bees on sm. cell and did brood breaks and used drone frames and I still had high mite levels 
and with OAV the bees can bee strong and not weak and sick as I was seeing with treatment free and my bee yard is isolated no beekeepers for 10 miles or better . I don't think sm.cell is the miracle cure it my help but that's it.
I plan on working with what I have over the next couple years and see how they deal with VARROA but if the counts get high you can bet I will be hitting them with OAV.
I guess I will just have to do it my way but I know I won't fail my bee yards only get better as the years roll on.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I think CC.MILLERS BOOKS JAY SMITH book are way out dated .

They didn't change their minds because of advances in beekeeping, but rather because their experience was contrary to what the Scientists had told them or what seemed to be commonly accepted. Smith changes his mind on how old of a bee was a nurse and on whether it helped to prime the cells and on whether an emergency queen could be a good queen. Miller changed his mind on how to winter, and what size hives to use and what criteria to use for selecting breeding stock.

>old pics old writings just very boring plus it make ya think queen rearing is something hard and ya need all this old Literature you do not queen rearing is simple it's as easy as keeping bees some just want you to think it's hard .

I have the same problem with the new books. They are also boring and they make it seem like queen rearing is hard... but all of the old books are written by people who were raising queens commercially. The point of all of their complexity was getting consitent numbers and quality of queens througout the season. If you raise them in the right season, it is simple. If you need them consistently, it's not so simple. The books written by the Scientists are often not as practical. 

It must be me. I love old pictures and old style writing and old books and old wisdom. Information on beekeeping doesn't really get outdate. Bees have not changed.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> It must be me. I love old pictures and old style writing and old books and old wisdom. Information on beekeeping doesn't really get outdate. Bees have not changed.


And me, those books and Michael's website are what has got me hooked on Queen rearing.


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