# Langstroth to Slovenian type AZ hive transition- any practical advice?



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

When moving frames from one format to another, I've found that using removable frame-top-bars particularly helpful.

This an example of a double-deep frame which will be installed in an AZ-Layens hybrid box, with a top bar tie-wrapped in place until the frame is drawn-out within a stack of two standard brood boxes, and duly occupied - at which point all those frames - and the colony upon them - will be transferred wholesale into the new box (after removing the top bars, of course).









This technique makes life very easy. It would be even easier with single-depth frames.

This is another example - being used 'in the reverse direction' to recover combs from a Warre Hive. Bridge comb from the difference in top bar length is inevitable.









'best
LJ


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I found the easiest way to introduce bees into an AZ hive was to hive swarms into them. I would guess if you dont have any chance of catching swarms that you could use the Taranov system to create a swarm and then hive them. I must say I am using heavily wax coated Ritecell foundation and the bees rapidly draw this out, I would say even faster than wax foundation.
Johno


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## Jaljala (Jun 2, 2017)

I installed a 4 frame Lang nuc early May in my newly built AZ Hive. I built the AZ hive specifically to accept Lang foundation size for that purpose.
The nuc I got had 2 wooden frames and 2 plastic frames. First I found the queen and place her in the AZ hive in a cage, then shake one frame at a time into the AZ hive. For the wooden frames, it was easy, I just cut the comb around the frame with a serrated knife, and placed it in my AZ frame, exact fit so no need to chop any part of the comb. Attached the comb with masking tape all around. If your AZ hive is the Slovenian size, you will have to crop the Lang comb to that size. 
For plastic frames it was no possible to cut the comb, so I only cut the plastic ears with an oscillating tool,, and the frames fit loosely inside my AZ hive. Then each week I moved the plastic frame toward the outside of the brood nest and will eventually remove them from the hive.
The whole process took about an hour because I was alone to do it and it was the first time. Bees were very well behaved so it helped.
In less than a week the bees had attached the combs to the AZ frames and chewed away most of the masking tape. 
I went foundationless for my AZ frames, so I slowly introduced an empty frame at a time between two drawn combs to avoid cross combs. Now a month into in, I have 7 newly drawn AZ frames, the 2 old combs moved from Lang frames, and one plastic frame still waiting to be removed.


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## zando (May 22, 2018)

Many thanks for the ideas, I really like the "temporary" top bar to fit the Langstroth, another week for my hives to gather strength and I will introduce the new frames there... in the mean time I will have build the roof on my new bee house, and may have the AZ hives in their permanent place... hopefully we have warm and not too dry of a summer so the bees are not stressed by anything else but the move...

if anyone else has any other ideas, experiences or practical advice - I am listening .. 

Thank you


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

This spring I put packages in my two AZ hives. I did a cutout of some comb to get them started and I put comb guides on all the frames. They are doing really well. You could to a complete cutout to install bees in them. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2018/AZHive1.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2018/AZHive2.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2018/AZHive5.jpg


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## zando (May 22, 2018)

Thank you John, that's the method I used for bigger part of my frames, and was able to compare it with other methods of transfer - I can say this was by far the easiest way of transferring. I am almost done building the house, have the hives populated, and now - question about overwintering... The 3 level hives have a lot of empty space after the summer, and even though in a bee house - how does one insulate? we are in a 3b zone, cold, dry and 3000ft above sea level.


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

One reason I started building AZ's based on Lang Deep foundation is so that this would be as painless as possible.

I would recommend treating it like a cut out.
Cut around the perimeter of the foundation, or pop out the comb and transfer it to the AZ frame.
Treat it much like you would a cut out from a building

These AZ's are now in North Ohio


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## zando (May 22, 2018)

great advice, thank you all. It is almost winter now here, in Alberta, and I hope my bees survive it...
and now I will attempt to insert images of my bee house, with panel of 4 AZ hives, and space for expansion of 3 more times of 4 hives...
The building is not complete, but will provide reasonable shelter for the next 5 months...


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## fatshark (Jun 17, 2009)

I'm a big fan of bee houses zando ... what's the lighting like inside yours? We've got solar powered LEDs but still haven't achieved optimal lighting to routinely see day-old larvae (eggs are easier). I still take a couple of steps to the door to get the sunlight - if there is any - on the frame.

Perhaps I need stronger glasses?


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## Jaljala (Jun 2, 2017)

fatshark said:


> I'm a big fan of bee houses zando ... what's the lighting like inside yours? We've got solar powered LEDs but still haven't achieved optimal lighting to routinely see day-old larvae (eggs are easier). I still take a couple of steps to the door to get the sunlight - if there is any - on the frame.
> 
> Perhaps I need stronger glasses?


I have the same problem... lack of light, the solution I found is having a headlamp under my veil...


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

headlamps work great!
I plan on adding a Solar panel , and lighting to bee house.


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## zando (May 22, 2018)

I am yet to finish my bee house on the inside, but I was wondering about the lights myself. 
in my shop I have one of these, that I think of duplication in my bee house as well :


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## fatshark (Jun 17, 2009)

I struggle with headlamps inside a veil. We've got a leisure battery and ~700 W equivalent LED bulbs. It's bright by any standard, but not bright enough for small larvae (or not ideally placed). A freestanding powerful LED table lamp, plugged into the solar-maintained battery might work well. We've got a case for the leisure battery with 12V and 5V USB-type outlets.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

zando said:


> I am yet to finish my bee house on the inside, but I was wondering about the lights myself.
> in my shop I have one of these, that I think of duplication in my bee house as well :
> View attachment 44387


If the sun's shining, then I like to look at combs with the sun 'over my shoulder' - but on dull days or when trying to graft (I'm still a novice at this) inside the house, then that kind of anglepoise is what I use. Except mine has a light bulb to one side of the lens. I changed it from tungsten filament to a CCFL folded lamp, which runs almost cold. I suspect circular lighting around the lens would provide much better illumination.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

If I was "... currently ... building the house for the hives",
this would be my design:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf9Fnbt1iFg
(if don't care/don't understand the language, jump to 1:00)

The video author is very pleased with these particular hives (in his bee house) and now considers how to have more of these.
This is purely from his ergonomic/less work approach.
I guess at his age he is getting a bit tired of his 12-frame square Dadants.

Unsure how and why, but a bee house is immutably being mated to the AZ hives for most keepers.
Well, there are other ways (and more simple at that).
20-25 deep frames (Dadant/Layens/Ukranian/double-deep Langs) set to warm way - a simple, low maintenance, and low tech configuration
Sleeping on top of the bees is also claimed to have relaxing/therapeutic effect (people pay for it too).


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

this is a Russian style Hive, not a AZ. 
but it is interesting that the hives are in the floor of the bee house. I had not seen that before. 
In this case it looks like it is operated like a LONG lang. 

I will look for a few other links to these russian style hives.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

steve4bees said:


> this is a Russian style Hive, not a AZ.
> but it is interesting that the hives are in the floor of the bee house. I had not seen that before.
> In this case it looks like it is operated like a LONG lang.
> 
> I will look for a few other links to these russian style hives.


Yes, I know - this is a Russian style long hive.
Exactly what I am saying - for the most beeks a bee house means - AZ hives.
Somehow they assume they must be locked into AZ hives if they do a bee house.

Well, this not true and one should keep the mind open.
Bee house means all kinds of bee hive styles built into a structure.
One can re-use the existing equipment in the bee hive with little modifications.
The bee house can even serve as a dwelling, in fact.

OP, in fact, may not be aware of this - so I decided to post.
Or anyone wanting to build such house, should consider the options.

Here are a Ukrainian long hives in the bee house for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InhN3UH3fLw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyDTxX5Pw08


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

There are adapters available that extend your az frame to lang length so they can hang in a lang box that you extend on the bottom to accomadate the deeper az frame. I surrounded lang brood frames with az foundation frames and got some az frames populated. A round about method but it worked. The new beek that I did this service for learned that the az Slovenian setup required constant puttering and did not allow him the travel time for work and recreation he required and has become primarily a lang beekeeper.


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

The frames in the AZ hives I build use and sell are AZ style frames but they are sized to LANG Deep foundation which makes it much easier to move Lang foundation into. 
I created this video that demonstrates moving Old Drawn comb from a Lang Frame into a AZ style frame. its fairly easy and straight forward. This same process can be used to move occupied comb from a LANG to a AZ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl7vJfMGICQ


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Wasn't there a company in the USA making AZ style hives with frames compatible with our deep frames?


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

There have been two of us building AZ hives that use Lang deep foundation, for about two years now. and I am one of them.


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## cdevier (Jul 17, 2010)

I agree with Vance. My AZ hives are only 2 high, which with a queen excluder, means that a queen can fill that bottom part quickly. I need to check these hives probably twice as often as my Langs.
Being that I am 75 years old, I thought that it would be nice not having to lift the heavy supers and that is true. But the Az hives make me sometimes do more than I want to.

Question; what should I do about the queen excluder during the winter? Leave it in or take it out.


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## VickyLynn (Jun 20, 2011)

I take mine out. I use thin strips of wood, about a third of an inch to block the space created by the QE, so the bees don't fly out into the bee house. I don't care where the queen is during the winter, and I want to make sure that she is kept warm and fed. When spring comes and I get ready to split, I'll make sure she is back downstairs and the QE is back in.

Managing an AZ hive is a different system than managing a vertical Langstroth hive. The frames are worked singly (horizontally), so there is no lifting (maximum 8-10 lbs full of honey), but during the season, adding and removing honey frames, moving brood up to the second deep and putting in empty frames below for the queen require the beekeeper to be on hand. No dumping an empty super on top and heading off for vacation. 

Personally, I like working my AZ hives. I can take care of several of them in the time it takes me to inspect one of my Langs, especially if I want to inspect the bottom box and to get to it, I have to empty half the frames out of the upper boxes just to lift them off. 

And then, after I have made sure my AZs all are set, I relax on the couch in my bee house, pour a glass of mead, breath in the wafting sweet honey smell of bees, and listen to them sing.


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

cdevier said:


> Question; what should I do about the queen excluder during the winter? Leave it in or take it out.


In Slovenia the bees are bred to shrink down into a minimal sized cluster, which allows them to limit the bees to just the lower chamber. What they will do is remove all of the frames in the upper chamber. and place a thin board above the queen excluder to keep the hive in the lower chamber. Than they will place a blanket or quilt above the board to provide insulation. 

In the USA I like to run 3 Chamber AZ hives. doing this you can place the queen excluder above the second chamber, And than do what I outlined above only in the third chamber. 

Picture of one of my hives is below








Steve of http://steve4bees.us


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## zando (May 22, 2018)

Time to report: 
After building my bee house last summer, placing 4 AZ hives in it (2 triple and 2 double on top of each other), I had my first inspection for 2019 ... February was called "the coldest for the last 75+ years" in Alberta, so I was glad to see all 4 hives being alive and well...
Now that I have new enthusiasm about expanding, I see that the Slovenian guy who I bought the hives from, is producing Langstroth-sized AZ hives, so I will be ordering some more. I am kind of sad I will have to deal with two different sizes of frames, but when I did the initial purchase - he did not offer the North American sized AZ hives, so - ... 
It will be my first summer managing this style, I am curios to see what the workload will be, but - definitely pleased with the survival rate ...


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## zando (May 22, 2018)

Steve - question: the Lang frames have this widening at the upper part when looked at from the side, and that widening makes them almost touch each other. The Slovenian frames, being same width top to bottom, have more space between them all the way. do you have observations on the Lang frames sticking together in the Az hive, are they harder to pull out??


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

ZANDO

On Langstroths these are what I call wings on the end bars. and yes the Bees will glue them together.
on AZ's these are held apart by frame spacers. and these thin metal spacers minimize the contact of the frames with each other and to the hive body so there is almost no gluing of the frames together.

This is a Video I made to talk about this and other aspects of the differences between AZ's and langstroth frame styles..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naa8pCg8Pz4

And you do not want to use Langstroth frames in a AZ hive you will have the Wings all glued together on the end that you dont see.
Imagine getting that unglued!


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## zando (May 22, 2018)

My fears exactly. So I have 4 AZ hives with the "normal" AZ hive frames, which took extra effort to place a base on and build up the comb. Now I see AZ hives for sale that are built to fit the Lang frames, and I am split - do I get the original AZ hives and frames, and put in extra effort to build up the comb etc, or do I get the Lang AZ hives that fit the frames I already have from my previous operation (the Lang frames we all have)? 
Anyone here with actual experience having AZ type hive with Lang frames? how easy / hard is to pull them out when full and sticky?


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

if you have the european sized AZ frames, than yes that is more difficult to get foundation for in North America and that is one reason I Build AZ hives that use LANG deep foundation in a AZ style Frame.
If you have a AZ that uses Lang deep foundation s than you can easily move your LANG deep drawn Comb from a langstroth frame to a AZ frame. 


Here is a Video I made of that!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl7vJfMGICQ


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Couldn't you just alternate the direction that the modified lang frames face to avoid contact?
Bill


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

yes you can orient lang frames so they stand on the end bars. , this allows you to use a hive tool to break the propolise on both the end bars and than pull the frames. I think this is a practical way to add a SUPER to the back of a AZ, and In fact this is the ONLY way that I think that Lang frames should ever be in a AZ hive.
I built a super to stick on the back of a AZ hive to demonstrate this idea.
this is only practical during a honey flow and for a short period of time, I would not recommend keeping a super on the back of a AZ long term. 
This is a video of that AZ super.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNvtJgowGbg


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## zando (May 22, 2018)

Mid-season in Alberta. AZ hive definitely has a different style of management than the Lang hives... still not sure if I like it better, but here are some observations, you assign the pluses and minuses:
- using the smoker on the inside the bee house keeps me well fumigated as well  have to keep it closer to the door / window and take it as I need it...
- bees fly around in the closed room, and go for the window - have to open the window from time to time to let them out. 
- have to be careful not to forget the window open for too long, or the bees from the outside start coming inside to check the honey smell 
- no real issues with pulling out stuck frames, but I can see how they would become pain to pull if left for the end of the season.... definite need for much "cleaner" operation when it comes to propolis ... 
- the AZ hives have a nifty opening on the upper part of the access door for ventilation - experimented with two hives open and two closed - a lot of ventilating bees at the entrance of the closed ones, and none on the open ones...
- nothing beats being able to lift the frame up towards the sun and check it out - in the bee house you either have to get to the door / window, or you need very strong light
- inspecting the bottom level of the lower hive from the side is kind of awkward - I should have placed the hives even higher off the floor. 
- the hives are well protected from the elements - I think the bees are developing much faster / better than the outside hives. This is hard to quantify, however...
- it is soo nice to have all your tools and thingy-ma-bops close at hand, you can do inspection work / repairs, anything really, regardless of the weather outside...

More in September ...


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

zando said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have explored forums, looked at pictures, videos etc., on the AZ hive topic. I have decided I will move my hives from Lang to AZ system, and currently I am building the house for the hives. I have 4 AZ hives (2 - 3 level and 2 - 2 level, to be stacked on top of each other, currently empty) I hope this will give me better handle and success rate on the overwintering, + some other benefits, already discussed in different forums here.
> 
> ...


Where did you find your plans?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Most of the AZ hive houses that I have seen have a skylight in the roof that allows bees inside to escape. The Slovenian carnis are very docile and not much smoke is used when working them, the thing to bear in mind is that this type of hive does not suit all locations and in my opinion the further north the better.


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

Hello Johno, thanks for getting back to me. 

I live very far north of the 45th, and I have insulated the hives outside, 3 deeps, and the long story short is that the weather is just really harsh and very long. So, I am going to be building shed that would have a few, however, during this time, I purchased one just to see how it was made. I would have thought that everything would have been screwed together, but, it was nailed. Otherwise a little reverse engineering, and I would have supplied the plans off of mine.

I currently have Carnolians, and I find that since they keep a small ball during the winter, they still don't seem to make it. 

Now, my reasoning for the shed, is to heat it up to -2*C and I would be able to feed them throughout the winter. 

What are your thoughts?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

j.dickhdequip said:


> Hello Johno, thanks for getting back to me.
> 
> I live very far north of the 45th, and I have insulated the hives outside, 3 deeps, and the long story short is that the weather is just really harsh and very long. So, I am going to be building shed that would have a few, however, during this time, I purchased one just to see how it was made. I would have thought that everything would have been screwed together, but, it was nailed. Otherwise a little reverse engineering, and I would have supplied the plans off of mine.
> 
> ...


The points that Zando made is what I thought about when considered working bees in a shed. It would be more for another thread but I would be interested in knowing what your difficulties are in wintering Carnies.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

j.dickhdequip said:


> Hello Johno, thanks for getting back to me.
> 
> I live very far north of the 45th, and I have insulated the hives outside, 3 deeps, and the long story short is that the weather is just really harsh and very long. So, I am going to be building shed that would have a few, however, during this time, I purchased one just to see how it was made. I would have thought that everything would have been screwed together, but, it was nailed. Otherwise a little reverse engineering, and I would have supplied the plans off of mine.
> 
> ...


Did you buy a locally manufactured hive based on Langstroth frames or one of the Slovenian ones as they have different frames. There is also a big difference between Slovenian Carni's and North American Carni's but you should be able to over winter them without any problems in Langs


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

Michael Bush said:


> This spring I put packages in my two AZ hives. I did a cutout of some comb to get them started and I put comb guides on all the frames. They are doing really well. You could to a complete cutout to install bees in them.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2018/AZHive1.jpg
> http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2018/AZHive2.jpg
> http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2018/AZHive5.jpg


I would like to know where you purchase these AZ Hive Frame separators?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

If you go up on Farcebook and look for AZ hivers you will find that there is some one here in the US making and selling them.


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

johno said:


> Did you buy a locally manufactured hive based on Langstroth frames or one of the Slovenian ones as they have different frames. There is also a big difference between Slovenian Carni's and North American Carni's but you should be able to over winter them without any problems in Langs


Well the AZ came in! I have currently looking at this morning.  I brought some frames (Langstroth) and it seems that they are the same size, which I ordered in the first place. As for the frame spacers, I would love to find this. I also received plans from a fellow reader whom also showed me where & how to get plans to build some more.

I bought this in AZ hive from Edsby which actually, I am shocked at the quality, looks like a cabinet. The one I ordered was the inexpensive version because the full deeps x 3 are like $700.00. I paid $400.00 with the FedEx shipping where I live. The whole thing is tongue and groove, and I would hazard a guess that a cabinet maker actually produced this it has this much quality in the hive.

When its fully unpacked, I will take some pictures of it.


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

j.dickhdequip said:


> I would like to know where you purchase these AZ Hive Frame separators?


Where did you get these frame spacers from? This is the same type that I see on my new AZ hive, however, I would like to also make some too.


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

Michael Bush said:


> This spring I put packages in my two AZ hives. I did a cutout of some comb to get them started and I put comb guides on all the frames. They are doing really well. You could to a complete cutout to install bees in them.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2018/AZHive1.jpg
> http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2018/AZHive2.jpg
> http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2018/AZHive5.jpg


Where did you purchase the AZ Frame Spacers from?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Google AZ frame spacers .com, I think there is now a local manufacturer.


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## al-kul (Sep 13, 2016)

Here I found where you can buy a spacer.
This is probably in Europe, but I don't know why the price is in B "coin








Frame spacer plastic


FRAMES AND WAX FOUNDATIONS. FRAMES AND WAX FOUNDATIONS. HIVE EQUIPMENT. Frame spacer plastic.




www.kipgo.net


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