# Virgin queen with tattered wings



## MartinW (Feb 28, 2015)

-observed a queen that had tattered edges on the end of her wings

1st year beekeeper here. I observed a virgin/newly mated queen, on the ground, outside of one my hives, approx three weeks ago. Her wings appeared torn and ragged. There were a handful of bees surrounding her. 

The hive subsequently re queened itself from a queen cell I had missed in my previous inspections. 

Based on what I saw, and feedback from my local bee group, I understand that a colony will reject a virgin or newly mated queen if she is lacking in some way or if they have better options.

Good luck.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

How were the nucs made, timing etc. Did you add 1 cell only? No other cells on frames of brood. 

I've tried adding hatched virgins with mixed results. Some nucs killed the virgins, others accepted, some harassed the queen like in your situation for a few days then stopped. I had a queen that lost a leg, she still mated and turned out to be good queen. Its the old bees that harrass them. So far I havn't had an acceptance issue with capped queen cells. Sometimes the cell is no good or the queen is lost during matting.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I was hoping I was getting a majority of nurse bees with those but I'm wondering if they are reacting aggressively towards the queen? 
* Nope, the nurse bees will not be aggressive toward the virgin or mated queen. If you observe your frame closely, you will see that
some guard bees or older flying bees are constantly protecting the nurse bees on the frame. So when you added the frame of bees those
aggressive older bees are the one balling the new queen damaging her wings. I had to picked off the aggressive bees first before using the nurse bees with a new queen hive.
Will they continue to attack her until they kill her or will the eventually get used to her? 
* No, they will never get used to her because during the attack they had marked her as a target with
their scent. It is just like when you got stung the other bees will be able to find you since you are 
marked as the target by their scent. They will continue to balled her until she eventually died.
I'm not sure if the tattered wings will affect her ability to fly for her mating flights....will the wings "heal"? 
* No, the wings are just like your fingernails. They will not heal once got tattered although some super
strong virgins still got mated. But shortly afterward she might be superceded.
Is it possible that she already went on her mating flight and her wings are tattered from that?
* No, a normal virgin queen got mated in the air while she was flying. So there is no way for 
her wings to get damaged during the flight. The only way for her wings to get damaged was by
the balling from the worker bees from the frame you added. So chances are she might not be a mated queen if she only got
out a couple days ago. How do you plan to save this virgin queen?


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## Cudworth (Dec 16, 2014)

Thanks for all the great information, it's really helpful. I think I also messed up when I put all my NUCs close together in a row facing the same direction. I fear a returning virgin might mistakenly fly into the wrong NUC. The NUCS were created by installing frames with either 1 or 2 capped queen cells in them. Based on your advice, I should have left the queens with the original donor frames instead of trying to add frames from other hives before the queens were successfully mated and laying. 

MY NEW PLAN: I'm going to go into all 5 NUCS tonight and see if any of the other queens are showing signs of attack. If the Tattered Wing queen is dead, I'm going to wait a couple weeks to make sure a queen from one of the my other is NUCS is laying. I will then combine Tattered Wing's NUC with that one using the newspaper method. If they have not killed her I'll still wait a couple weeks to see if she was able to go on a mating flight and start laying.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Great thread!
Learning about the doos and don'ts of queen intro is one of the trickiest parts of keeping bees imo. 
I know I've lost some virgin queens because of lack of knowledge. Had a nuc go thru like 4. 

There will be some painful lessons. Might refer to the thread with the expensive breeder queen intro problems. (ouch)


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## Thershey (Mar 12, 2014)

At this point, opening any of the nucs is likely to do more harm than good. This is a very sensitive time in the virgins development and acceptance, patience is your best friend. Opening the hive less than 14 days after emergence most often reveals nothing and often leads to trouble. I wait a minimum of 17 days after emergence and things work out more than 90% of the time.

It's possible that you had simultaneous emergence in the tattered wings nuc and one of the virgins is being chased out, she'll leave or they'll finish her. Do you remember if that nuc had two cells? And FWIW, since you used cells, there should be no reason for the bees that came from other hives to attack the virgin. To those bees, she is their queen the minute she emerged. Bees pulled from different hives to a neutral box don't usually fight much, especially with no queen present.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

* Once they start balling her, the chances of her going to a mating flight is nearly zero.
Both the original bees and the foreign bees (from another hive) put their intruder smell on her.
Now that she got it from both sides, neither side can accept her as a future queen anymore. She is doomed for sure!
Even if she somehow got free and is mated, she will soon be superceded because of the injury, probably from
a broken leg or something.
* If you want to check on the nucs it is better to do it just before the sunset. Have a small LED flashlight ready
because it will be dark soon. This way you will get an idea of the nuc hives situation. Many beekeepers will say not to
disturb the bees at night that they will bite and sting you. While it is true, if you go slowly and meticulously they
will be calm bees. I did this all the time when in the day time I cannot work on them. I put another veil on over the
fully protected bee suit and just took the veil off when done. This will eliminate many clinging bees on my bee suit. So make
sure you are fully suit up and protected. Yes, it could be nasty when they turn angry at night when disturbed.
* If I am introducing a breeder queen that would be using another tricks and method different than the nucs.
Breeder queen is too expensive to risk it all using the traditional intro method. 
* After 3 days the virgin's scent already spread through out the nuc hive to mark herself as the future queen if
they have not balled on her first. So chances of a successful future queen is most likely after her return mating flight.
Because I disturb the nucs at night they are the least bother by my intrusion. In the day time it is more disturbance to them.
The frantic virgin might fly off and never return again because she has not take her orientation flight yet. This simple quick inspection
will ensure that everything is going right in case the 2 cells did not hatch or they had balled the virgin queen. So it is not
bad that you check on the nucs early to keep everything going at the right direction. I check on my nucs all the time with the
developing cell and after the virgin hatched at night time too.
* Yes, the foreign bees from another hive will
attack the virgin because they are not used to her smell. The OP mentioned about adding a frame of foreign bees to an existing
nuc with a virgin already, not making up a new nuc box with bees from other hives which is another story. Also, these are the older forager bees that you put in along with all the nurse bees on the frame. Alone, the young nurse bees and the newly emerged bees will not attack the virgin but accepted
her whole heatedly as this is the only queen they see. This virgin intro. experiment I have done it before and posted here as a reference for all. I believe it was called how I save a virgin queen post. Sadly, after laying she got superceded.


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## Thershey (Mar 12, 2014)

The OP says the foreign frames were added at the time the nucs were made, no virgins are being introduced or were present, capped QCs went into the nucs at that time. The blended nuc bees only know the newly emerged virgin as their queen as she emerged in their presence.

As for encouraging someone to work nucs with virgins at night, I believe that's a first.



beepro said:


> * Once they start balling her, the chances of her going to a mating flight is nearly zero.
> Both the original bees and the foreign bees (from another hive) put their intruder smell on her.
> Now that she got it from both sides, neither side can accept her as a future queen anymore. She is doomed for sure!
> Even if she somehow got free and is mated, she will soon be superceded because of the injury, probably from
> ...


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## Thershey (Mar 12, 2014)

The OP says the foreign frames were added at the time the nucs were made, no virgins are being introduced or were present, capped QCs went into the nucs at that time. The blended nuc bees only know the newly emerged virgin as their queen as she emerged in their presence.

As for encouraging someone to work nucs with virgins at night, I believe that's a first.



beepro said:


> * Once they start balling her, the chances of her going to a mating flight is nearly zero.
> Both the original bees and the foreign bees (from another hive) put their intruder smell on her.
> Now that she got it from both sides, neither side can accept her as a future queen anymore. She is doomed for sure!
> Even if she somehow got free and is mated, she will soon be superceded because of the injury, probably from
> ...


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Then I can only say one thing, in a short amount of time that the nuc was made up they
had rejected the virgin queen after 3 days of hatching. This is very common during the
summer time when queens are raised. During the Spring and early Fall they will be more
likely to accept the new virgin queen. I do inspect my nucs at night to not disturb them as much. The
advantage is that the virgin is not likely to fly off or disappear during inspection compare to the day time when she
got frightened. Day time inspection I lost the virgin queen but at night time I don't.
One nuc I have should be queen right since early May but somehow they cannot keep the virgin queen from
the hatched cells that I put in. So I kept on adding more open broods and cells from a supercedure hive so that
they will not develop the LWs. Finally, last week they had accepted a virgin queen. Maybe in a few more days she
should be mated if everything goes right. If not I will just combine this 4 frame nuc with a newly queen right nuc hive.
This year is expansion mode. I will try to make as many nucs as possible before going into the winter for a fast 
expansion the next Spring.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

beepro said:


> One nuc I have should be queen right since early May but somehow they cannot keep the virgin queen from
> the hatched cells that I put in. Finally, last week they had accepted a virgin queen.



So finally this 4 frame nuc produced a laying queen now on tonight's nuc inspection just before the sunset.
When done right it is possible to do so. This is one of the biggest abdomen queens I have seen so far. Very well fed and
laying in every empty cell she inspected. Also, combine a recently queen right nuc with a queen less nuc because it has been
too long already. This is because they had rejected 2 more queen cells that I put in last night. No queen or virgin found in there on many
inspection before.

Isn't she beautiful?:


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

Cudworth said:


> Hi, I'm in my second year of beekeeping. I used the cloake board method to get 6 queen cells from my favorite queen. I took the cells and made up some NUCS. The queens hatched out a couple days ago. I went into one of the NUCS this morning and observed a queen that had tattered edges on the end of her wings. One of the bees seemed very aggressive towards her and kept chasing her and making the motion like she was stinging her (but she wasn't). When making up the NUCS, I mostly used frames from the colony I took the queen cells from. I tried to take honey, pollen, capped and uncapped brood with the bees on them. However, I ran short so I did take some frames of uncapped / capped brood from other hives. Did I mess up by using frames from other colonies? I was hoping I was getting a majority of nurse bees with those but I'm wondering if they are reacting aggressively towards the queen? Will they continue to attack her until they kill her or will the eventually get used to her? I'm not sure if the tattered wings will affect her ability to fly for her mating flights....will the wings "heal"? Is it possible that she already went on her mating flight and her wings are tattered from that?
> 
> Thanks, Mike.



mike, that was not a virgin. if she hatches out and she has a defect, they will kill instantly and will build other cells out of the larva and eggs you have in there. I could be wrong, but go inspect your other hives. you might have taken the queen away from one of your older hives.

if they hatched in the same hive, after you mixed bees from different hives, she will be fine, non of the bees in her hive will try to kill her. the new born queen will only have bad wings if she was born with them like that, varroua or other reason, and in this case, she will actually be killed in the cell, or right after hatching. bees sense when a queen has problems, and they will usually kill them and start other cells. or, she is the older queen, that you took from other hives. I have see thousands of queens come back after flight, and she might be missing a limb , but rarely I have seen damaged wings. they can't really fly well with the tiny wings, and if they are damaged they will usually not make it back home after the mating flight, especially trailing the big drone penis  

check for varroua, maybe treat, and check your other hives for queens. it sounds like you got an older queen there. you know why wings get all tattered wings like that? it is because during her laying spree, she uses the wings to support herself as she lays. so when the wings get messed up as she ages, and also if she looses a limb, her lay pattern will not be so good anymore. so the bees will change her, since she is not good. some will have strong pheromone, so they will not, and there is where you come in, you kill her and let them make a new one. 

I hope this helps.


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

beepro, he had said he made the nucs using bees from other hives, witch is just fine, and then introduced the cells in the hive. they hatched in a hive that was already made, so bees had a chance to fight it out. he also kept the bees in the same place, so most likely the old worker bees all went back home. 

I almost never make a nuc, using just bees from one hive. I usually make them as I go thru the yard, so I might have 2-4 boxes open, and I will take 2 frames here and with 2 frames from there and 1 here and make my nuc. that will insure that my bees feel orphan within hours, because of the mixing, and the fighting. you can almost introduce cells the same evening or next day and be fine. same goes for caged queens. 

also, there is a reason most of the beekeepers will not open hives at night, and even if I am sure that it works for you, I would not recommend this to most beekeepers, especially beginners. it is a personal preference , and I did used to make nucs at night a while back. not anymore  

to cudworth, as a rule of thumb, you do not disturb the hive for at least 2 weeks after you introduced a cell, or you may go back in 24-48 h to release the queen out of cage. keep it to a minimum , in and out fast. try to to kill her with a frame, and you should be fine. also, it helps to feed while you introduce. as rule, I always do, except certain times, when I cant do it, because of logistics.
do not forget you are further up north than some of the guys on this forum, so what works for them , might not work for you. 
I have some drones left thru winter, you might get winter by the 1st of October. so be careful about the small nucs you made now, since winter is only a few months away. make sure they have enough feed, brood to go thru winter. 
end of July it is kind of late in the season to make nucs. 

I hope this helps. 

Radu 


beepro said:


> * Once they start balling her, the chances of her going to a mating flight is nearly zero.
> Both the original bees and the foreign bees (from another hive) put their intruder smell on her.
> Now that she got it from both sides, neither side can accept her as a future queen anymore. She is doomed for sure!
> Even if she somehow got free and is mated, she will soon be superceded because of the injury, probably from
> ...


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## Cudworth (Dec 16, 2014)

Again, thanks for all the help, I really learned a lot from the posts. I probably wasn't clear in my original post. I originally created all 5 NUCs with capped queen cells with frames from the same donor hive. After the queens hatched, I then added frames of uncapped and capped brood (with the bees on them) from other hives to jumpstart and fill out the 5 frame NUCs. I know these were the virgin queens that were in the NUCs because my laying queens are all marked. I have 2 queens left of the original 5 that I observed before I added the frames from the other hives.


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## Thershey (Mar 12, 2014)

Ooh yeah, that's not a good thing, tough lesson to learn this time of year. Beepros signature line says it all. Sorry for your loss.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Despite what everyone may say or think, here is a story from my bee yard from 2 years ago. 

I I had a hive that re-queened. The only problem is that when I inspected and found her she had deformed almost nonexistent wings. But she was laying worker brood. No way she ever left the hive to mate. They did supersede her almost immediately, but not before she laid enough eggs for them to make a new queen. So I know that sometimes they will mate in the hive. Inferior, yes, but enough to allow the hive to continue.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks for the clarification.
Yes, this was what I suspected all along, adding new frames of foreign bees from another hive into
a virgin or mated queen existing hive. Either one will get the queen balled by the foreign bees alright. I
had done it many times over the years because I should of known better. A lesson learn for all here. The
reason for my signature is to remind myself not to do so again. And because I did not mixed in the foreign
bees (thinking that I can boost the nuc hive population a little) I finally got a queen right nuc hive now. Funny that I cannot see my own 
signature from the posts.
To boost the nuc population I would take a frame of young nurse bees or about to be hatch capped frame without the forager bees by
walking a few rounds about my yard so that the foragers have a chance to fly off the frame. If that was not enough I would just picked them
off the frame. This way only the remaining young bees are on the frame that will not kill off the new queen. This I had done with 100%
success to give the hive a temporarily population boost. And it was good exercise for me too.
Until the virgin is laying after her mating flight, when she returned the bees was still balling her. Maybe somehow she got away and
started laying. By this time all her wings are gone or got torn off by the bees. I had a similar situation about 3 months ago. But she
got superceded shortly though her wings got severely tattered. This one was a very strong virgin queen thanks to the extra RJ deposited.


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