# My first two hives of 10,000 have been ordered :)



## scoobertdoo

Hello everyone!
After watching my grandfather enjoy bees as a hobby, I decided to take the plunge and setup a apiary. 
My first two hives should be up and running in the next two weeks, and those will be my starters. 
I can set up 12 hives at my home permanently, and for up to 60 days I can have as many as I want (if I am reading the law correctly?)
Once I have 12 established colonies I will try to find a chunk of AG land to lease from one of many local massive farms. 
I hope to go to 100-150 hives this year, and 1,000 next year. I should be able to quit my job in 2020 and go full time then. 
Yeah, big dreams, right? Well maybe. I ran my own business for 17 years, so I have an idea what is involved. 
Commercial pollination is what I am after, and a little honey for me from my 12 hives at my home 

What to you think? A bag of popcorn and watch me fail, or do I seem to be planted in reality here?


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## Jtcmedic

Welcome , Florida is pollen year round, I started with 1 and am at 13 now after 3 years. I am on the other coast. Enjoy it


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## scoobertdoo

Jtcmedic said:


> Welcome , Florida is pollen year round, I started with 1 and am at 13 now after 3 years. I am on the other coast. Enjoy it


No doubt on the pollen count! LOL. I was going to do this years ago in NY, but it was just not a long enough season, and I would have had to truck my hives to FL. Glad to be in the right place, and this close to the coast, we do not have many days under 50 degrees. If I am reading the bee calendar correctly, even in december and january Bush Aster, Wild Mustard Blooms all winter?


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## MTN-Bees

I think your setup for failure. Buying lots of hives is easy. Keeping them alive is another story. There is a huge learning curve in beekeeping.


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## SWM

You watched your grandfather keep bees as a hobby.
You are going to start with 2 hives and expand to 100-150 your first year.
You will then expand to 1000 hives your second year.
You are indeed an April Fool...just one day early!


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## jim lyon

scoobertdoo said:


> Hello everyone!
> After watching my grandfather enjoy bees as a hobby, I decided to take the plunge and setup a apiary.
> My first two hives should be up and running in the next two weeks, and those will be my starters.
> I can set up 12 hives at my home permanently, and for up to 60 days I can have as many as I want (if I am reading the law correctly?)
> Once I have 12 established colonies I will try to find a chunk of AG land to lease from one of many local massive farms.
> I hope to go to 100-150 hives this year, and 1,000 next year. I should be able to quit my job in 2020 and go full time then.
> Yeah, big dreams, right? Well maybe. I ran my own business for 17 years, so I have an idea what is involved.
> Commercial pollination is what I am after, and a little honey for me from my 12 hives at my home
> 
> What to you think? A bag of popcorn and watch me fail, or do I seem to be planted in reality here?


:lpf:


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## Tim KS

You're between the popcorn & reality......closer to the popcorn. :waiting:


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## JWPalmer

I think that 12 hives is a nice manageable number for a 1st or 2nd year beek. The trick of course is having those same 12 hives come November. Until you can do that, the rest is all a fantasy. Become a beekeeper first, then talk about expansion plans.


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## Flyer Jim

Put up you'r money and take you'r chance.

You can't win if you don't play.

Those who don't think they can are right. Best of luck to ya, :thumbsup:........ I'm going to buy a lottery ticket.


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## HarryVanderpool

scoobertdoo said:


> Hello everyone! My first two hives should be up and running in the next two weeks, and those will be my starters.


There was a day26 years ago when I was in your same position.
What I decided to do was double the amount of hives every year so my skills would grow along with my responsibilities in the beekeeping industry.
I hung onto my day job for several years and the bees payed their own way as we paid off our land and college loans.
I am so very grateful for following this very conservative strategy.
No debt EVER, in the bee business.

When do you drop the day job and make a go of it?
Not one second before you are darn good and ready!
It sounds like a slow start. 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 126, 256, 512....
Well thank heavens for an adequate training period!
I wish you the best!


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## b2bnz

If you want to make a small fortune in beekeeping..............start with a large fortune!
Good luck and I hope you make it!


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## DerTiefster

you will need a whole bunch of empirical knowledge to make it solely on beekeeping. I suspect that any endeavour of man takes years of experience to master, whether it's woodworking, baking, masonry, or any other thing. Expect to be delayed, and stage your plans so that you have backup if something unexpected intrudes.

Best of luck....


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## clyderoad

Just buy the number of hives you want to run and go for it now.
Anyone can be a beekeeper. Everything you need to know
can be learned in beekeeping books or is on the internet. Especially
helpful are all of the you tube videos of the hundreds of new beekeeping experts
world wide working their backyard hives showing everyone with an interest exactly what it takes
to be successful with bees. 
Go for it.


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## VickyLynn

:thumbsup:


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## MTN-Bees

Below is an outdated but useful webpage. I would multiply the costs times 3 as costs have increased. To go into a 10,000 hive operation, you should plan to invest a ton of money.

http://sfp.ucdavis.edu/pubs/SFNews/archives/94032/


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## scoobertdoo

Thanks guys! Great mix of "the bees are going to kill you, and good lucks. 

So tomorrow I head to the local beekeepers meeting in town. I am hoping to learn first hand from the local group!
Yes, I have watched internet videos. Thou I have to admit most of my learning came from here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3mjpM6Av4bxbxps_Gh5YPw
Not from amateurs on youtube.

I have a few personal strategies to keep my bees alive. 
The first is never more than 500 hives to an area. Be it my own area, or a farm for pollination. I am hoping this keeps my dead loss to a minimum. As I grow I am sure this number will grow, but for now...
Second if I raise my own queens, they will come from my yard, and not from the main apiary. OR I will use queens from someone else. Looking at hygienic queens.
Third, as I grow I will hire a professional beekeeper  Will be nice to have an experienced person once I hit 500 to help me.
fourth, I will be open minded, but not so open minded my brain falls out. So I will pump the local folks for as much information as they will give.

My first comercial goal is a pickup truck with a trailer full of bees for pollination by spring.
Yeah, I know this will mean a whopping $5000 for two months, but it should be my first income from bees.
If all has gone well by that point, I want to do 4 way splits on the strong colonies. That will take me to 300-400 by summer, allowing for a second 3 way split to 1000.
I have been reading a bit, and 1000 colonies is about the max a single keeper can take good care of. We will see how I feel at 500 
In the meantime my job pays well, and if my 100 colonies turn into 0, I still have a job  

Grab some popcorn, I will make some videos, lets see how many stings it takes for them not to bother me. If getting spanked is any indicator, it took about 12 hard spankings for them to not be punishment anymore.


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## JTGaraas

Scoobretdoo’s new-found enthusiasm for beekeeping is experienced by every new beekeeper, , and easily understood by all of us. Considering the post is in the “Commercial Beekeeping” listing, and his only actual experience was watching a hobbyist grandfather, I appreciate the multiple responses, both clever and blunt, that normally would cause one to pause, and perhaps reconsider the plan (if not stop). What good is an open mind, if it is closed to suggestion from more experienced beekeepers?


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## scoobertdoo

JTGaraas said:


> Scoobretdoo’s new-found enthusiasm for beekeeping is experienced by every new beekeeper, , and easily understood by all of us. Considering the post is in the “Commercial Beekeeping” listing, and his only actual experience was watching a hobbyist grandfather, I appreciate the multiple responses, both clever and blunt, that normally would cause one to pause, and perhaps reconsider the plan (if not stop). What good is an open mind, if it is closed to suggestion from more experienced beekeepers?


The enthusiasm happened 8 years ago. After weighing the cons of doing an apiary in NY I knew I couldn't do it there.
Now I am in the "realized dream" phase. When everything has lined up in my life to give me the time and drive to find a new line of work.
I also have a job that provides me with enough income to afford to buy 1000 hives worth of supplies in 2 years without making a penny.
I wish I was more enthusiastic. Friggin stings hurt! Hives filled with bees are heavy! What do you mean 10 of my hives are empty! Yeah, I am in the real life phaze now.
I wish this was a first date fascination, but I am infected full blown with bee life. Will let you know in 6 weeks if this will be more than 12 backyard hives


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## MTN-Bees

Reread Harry Vanderpool’s post. The best thing you can do is start at a slow steady pace. You don’t even have the infrastructure to support 20 hives no less a thousand. You have not idea what it is like to opearationally support a commercial Bee operation. Wake up and listen to the people that are doing it. Your like many others that have posted here Year after Year. Most are never heard from again.


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## Biermann

Interesting, this is the new spirit in your country = 'make America great, one bee hive a the time', and one year later you change to 'keep America great = one bee hive at the time'. We envy your stimulating endeavor, forward thinking progression that is so much missing in other nations.

I hope you take your grandpa as partner, you will need his retirement money for some time. Best of luck! Only the sky is the limit.


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## scoobertdoo

MTN-Bees said:


> Reread Harry Vanderpool’s post. The best thing you can do is start at a slow steady pace. You don’t even have the infrastructure to support 20 hives no less a thousand. You have not idea what it is like to opearationally support a commercial Bee operation. Wake up and listen to the people that are doing it. Your like many others that have posted here Year after Year. Most are never heard from again.


I am not ignoring anyone's posts. I find all the advice helpful, and meaningful. 
I will not however be spending the next 15 years slowly building up. It is not my thing. I like to place my toe in the water (two hives) and if the water feels good for me, I jump in. If not, I will have two hives, and enjoy the honey that comes from them, as well as a lack of trespassers in my backyard. I get to play with a hive tomorrow, with the local inspector. I picked the right time of year to launch this. 
My black lab however will be staying home, I will upgrade to a yellow lab in a few years, LOL.


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## Apis Natural

thanks for the morning funny, love to laugh.

after working bees since 1982, and knowing the Reality.

honestly...thanks for the morning funny, love to laugh.

for real Thanks.


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## scoobertdoo

Apis Natural said:


> thanks for the morning funny, love to laugh.
> 
> after working bees since 1982, and knowing the Reality.
> 
> honestly...thanks for the morning funny, love to laugh.
> 
> for real Thanks.


Did you want popcorn with that laugh? opcorn:


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## Beekkirk

Like you I had big ideas but reality kicks in.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?319134-Youngster-trying-to-make-a-go
www.HeritageApiaries.com
Im 23 at 150 +/- hives now and plan to stay there for a while. All my income from my bees is from nuc production. Its taken me 8 years for me to consider myself a knowledgeable beekeeper but there is still so much I dont know. I need to focus my big dreams towards making the numbers really work with a little hives.
Ive now moved my feelings from Ya! 1000 hives full time work.......to..... let me make as much money as i possibly can from 150 hives and keep my day job at the same time. Im very profitable I just want to be more so. I can push and manage my hives very well when I only have 150 ish. 
Its been working out very well the past 3 years. 
Sink in some initial capital to get you going..... $15k and then only spend what you make. 
Good luck, but reality will sway the direction of your business


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## Allen Martens

I did what you are trying to do. My first year I ran 260 hives and had production average of 207 lbs/hive. Beginners luck I guess; took me 10 years to reach that average again. My only prior experience was helping harvest honey for a month and a half. I did have a mentor from whom I purchased the hives and equipment which was very beneficial. I did need to readjust my growth projection a number of times at the beginning to match reality; instead of reaching a 1000 in 3-4 years, it took me more like 12 years.

Time is the biggest enemy. If you don't have a lot of it beyond your job it will be difficult to pull off any type of explosive growth.

If you can purchase an existing smaller operation with bees, equipment, contacts, contracts, locations and mentoring you will have a much greater chance of succeeding quickly IMHO.

Look to learn from bee operations which are bigger than you. They have the systems in place you will need in order to get things done quickly and efficiently.

Good luck in your endeavor.


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## scoobertdoo

Allen Martens said:


> I did what you are trying to do. My first year I ran 260 hives and had production average of 207 lbs/hive. Beginners luck I guess; took me 10 years to reach that average again. My only prior experience was helping harvest honey for a month and a half. I did have a mentor from whom I purchased the hives and equipment which was very beneficial. I did need to readjust my growth projection a number of times at the beginning to match reality; instead of reaching a 1000 in 3-4 years, it took me more like 12 years.
> 
> Time is the biggest enemy. If you don't have a lot of it beyond your job it will be difficult to pull off any type of explosive growth.
> 
> If you can purchase an existing smaller operation with bees, equipment, contacts, contracts, locations and mentoring you will have a much greater chance of succeeding quickly IMHO.
> 
> Look to learn from bee operations which are bigger than you. They have the systems in place you will need in order to get things done quickly and efficiently.
> 
> Good luck in your endeavor.


WOW, I can't say I was expecting to get any honey this year at all. Getting honey had not even crossed my mind for year one. 
Good info, thank you!


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## HarryVanderpool

scoobertdoo said:


> WOW, I can't say I was expecting to get any honey this year at all. Getting honey had not even crossed my mind for year one.


BINGO!!
I think that the many responses to your post would indicate that 99.5% of what you need to know, do, manage and control has NOT crossed your mind.
Why? Because you have not been there, done that.
You asked for advice; right?
We all want to see beekeeping operations succeed.
But there is a pattern of failure that we have seen over and over and over again.

It always begins with, " I know better than everybody else".

I hope that you don't fall victim to that line of thought as so many have in recent years.
Best wishes!


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## MartinSzy

I started in 1985. Only to find out Varroa and a Tree called California Buckeye killed my Bee's in 2000 when I moved to the Foothills of Sierra Nevada. With the information age the Buckeyes are sawed and Varroa Mites are Oxalic Acid tamed. I am so Old I did not know what Varroa Mites were. Wish Me Luck.


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## MTN-Bees

Buckeyes sawed???


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## scoobertdoo

HarryVanderpool said:


> It always begins with, " I know better than everybody else".


I am the opposite. 
I came in with an "ask what I need to know" mindset.
I will not however be dissuaded. 
Yeah, I will have some hard, expensive lessons to learn.
Lesson 1 was last night. You never get stung only once, and stings don't really hurt.
Lesson 2 bee bumping is a real thing. 20 people, standing in front of a hive, will cause them to be angry. 
Lesson 3 long sleeves are a must if you are going to make bees angry. 
Lesson 4 if the head of the heads of beekeeping inspectors for your state is wearing a veil, wear one too.
Lesson 5 only do a western deep here, bees will not fill a double deep.
Lesson 6 get ready for honey, because we make honey all year long.

It was a worthwhile trip. Seems EFB/AFB is not an issue here at all. Should not even be treated. Verroa is in all hives, and it needs to be monitored constantly. 
I live in a great area to do this. The local area has some very good experts, who basically said they are always open for a phone call to come look at your hives.
A master keeper??? runs our local chapter. Privileged to be in the midst of such great and friendly bee folks in my town. I pickup my first 3 nucs in two weeks.


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## Roland

We started beekeeping in America in 1852. Seen alot of upstarts come and go. Good luck.


You stated:
After weighing the cons of doing an apiary in NY I knew I couldn't do it there.

If you can't do it in New York, what makes you think you can do it in Florida? A knowledgable beekeeper should be able to adapt to either location.

Crazy Roland


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## Hillbillybees

You would be wise to listen. Most are not. Started bees in 1976 with my grandpa. Anybody could raise bees then. Always loved it. Did life and find myself with time and money on my hands and started again 8 years ago. Its a different world. My advice is the same as the others. Slow start. Get a job with a commercial operation. 
Can your plan work? Sure, its possible but you will be one of the few and you can count on spending 2 or 3 times more than a guy that starts slow. When you get tired of cleaning up deadouts and your sitting on your bucket with your head in your hands remember you would not be dissuaded. 
If you really want to spend the money and have the greatest chance find a beekeeper that is wanting to be fulltime but has kept bees 10 years and pay him a nice salary to run your hives. Tell him you want to see year over year growth and when he needs help you will hire it or come in and help him. 
Either way your going to help the bee industry cause your money is going to someone. You need bees were all here for you.


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## Blue Monarch

If you have the resources and a solid business plan, I'm sure it could be done. So many variables though, that it would scare me.


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## homegrown

I’d recommend following Ian Steppler from Steppler Farms. You’ll need to make some adjustments for your southern climate, specifically varroa management. He has a blog and posts his videos on YouTube under Canadian Beekeepers blog.


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## MartinSzy

homegrown said:


> I’d recommend following Ian Steppler from Steppler Farms. You’ll need to make some adjustments for your southern climate, specifically varroa management. He has a blog and posts his videos on YouTube under Canadian Beekeepers blog.


Ian has done a great Vid Blog representation. He has only 1500 to 2000 Hives. The Canola Oil is where he profits along with Family. 
He is now worried about Spring Expansion with Natural Spring Honey Flow in the Future. Good Man.


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## MartinSzy

MTN-Bees said:


> Buckeyes sawed???


Yes. Animal Poison. https://wagwalking.com/condition/buckeye-poisoning I gave up with my Bee's Unknown. 
I sawed around 28 Tree clusters within 500 Ft of Home that were 3 to 12 inches at base, some 25 Ft tall.
I can send you some Chestnuts if you want some. I have a Lot


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## JTGaraas

I too was puzzled about the reference to Buckeyes. A web search found numerous stories about the poisonous effect on honey bees. Learn something new everyday. https://www.sfgate.com/homeandgarden/article/Not-all-plants-are-safe-for-bees-3226596.php


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## johno

I no longer tend to find interesting discussions taking place on beesource so I have decided to take the $10 I have profited from my beekeeping efforts and invest it in the stock exchange and wish to turn it into a million bucks in the first year. I would like to add that I have little to no financial knowledge but will ask every I see for advice which I probably will ignore anyhow. I will probably place more credibility on the advice of the homeless folks I come across than on the successful investors who make their living on the stock exchange, sounds like a good plan to me.
Johno


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## Hillbillybees

As usual you are entertaining Johno. But I think you should take out a loan and make it a $20 investment so you can get really rich. I'm going to play it safe and watch you for one week then I'm putting $50 in the market with your help of course.


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## JWChesnut

I took Johno advice and invested 59 cents each in two balsa wood toy gliders. 

I plan on flying to the moon in the year 2020. I am more brilliant than silver polish, so the Law of Gravity no longer affects me. 

Since I still have $8.82 after subtracting the cost of my two balsa wood aeroplanes, I am going to invest that in chinchilla futures.


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## JRG13

JTGaraas said:


> I too was puzzled about the reference to Buckeyes. A web search found numerous stories about the poisonous effect on honey bees. Learn something new everyday. https://www.sfgate.com/homeandgarden/article/Not-all-plants-are-safe-for-bees-3226596.php


To be specific, it's California buckeye that is toxic to bees.


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## johno

Come on guys its all in cattle futures, some lady turned a couple of hundred bucks into many thousands with cattle futures if I remember correctly, there was some doubts on her ability with real estate though.
Johno


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## JRG13

Here's my question to the OP,

If you can afford to buy 1000 hives over two years and not worry about it, why give up your day job?


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## The Honey Householder

I say go for it. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

It's business like your, I like go to the auctions. To buy almost new bee equipment for $.40 on the dollar. That's really the only time I take off of my busy schedule to talk to other beekeeper, other then on here. Back in the early 90's we bought out a lot of comm. operations when the mite came into play. 

My dad still works with me and tell of the good old days stories, when beekeeping was fun. 

So, keep it fun and don't quit your day job.


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## Matt903

I hope you make it. I was you six years ago. I had some crazy notions about top bar hives, my business plans, and early retirement. I am embarrassed now to read my old posts from those days. However my experience over the past years has been invaluable. I have made mistakes, lost money, learned from mistakes, made some money, had things happen out of my control which caused a loss, had things happen out of my control on which I made money. I am now what I consider a side liner, and debt free with bees. Maybe one day that retirement will come and I can work bees exclusively. Maybe it won't, the point being is really think about what you are doing before you spend a whole lot of money, please take it slow. The bees will be there. Right now I just concentrate of my family, the education of 500 middle school students (I'm a school principal), and breeding better queens. I also stand in awe of the folks who do this full time and make a go it. I sincerely hope you join their number. Good luck!


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## scoobertdoo

Quick question about honey harvesting and early pollination service.

I am reading up about honey production and sales... I can sell the honey myself and do nothing special outside labeling, but if I want someone else to sell it, like a grocery store, the law says it has to be "bottled and stored in a commercial kitchen"
What about extraction? Can I dump it into 5 gallon and 55 gallon containers (food grade) and sell it like that? Can I harvest, and store in my home, and later bottle in a licensed kitchen and sell it wholesale?

For pollination, will places accept an apiary with only 100 colonies? Do they have a number they like to see before you can make a decent lease fee per hive? is $40-50 per month a good rate to charge for hives delivered on the east coast? Is it better to transport them on my own truck and trailer, or should I just have them hauled by a trucking company? Should I own the trailer, and just try to find a semi to transport it?

Thanks for any help on this first year guys. Many people with local knowledge and 30+ years experience are giving me conflicting information.


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## Smokeybee

I'm a beginner backyard beekeeper and I have no idea how to answer your questions. I'm just here to cheer on your success, I hope you make it big! 

Please keep posting your progress. Make the experts eat their words.


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## Aaronm

scoobertdoo said:


> Quick question about honey harvesting and early pollination service.
> 
> I am reading up about honey production and sales... I can sell the honey myself and do nothing special outside labeling, but if I want someone else to sell it, like a grocery store, the law says it has to be "bottled and stored in a commercial kitchen"
> What about extraction? Can I dump it into 5 gallon and 55 gallon containers (food grade) and sell it like that? Can I harvest, and store in my home, and later bottle in a licensed kitchen and sell it wholesale?
> 
> For pollination, will places accept an apiary with only 100 colonies? Do they have a number they like to see before you can make a decent lease fee per hive? is $40-50 per month a good rate to charge for hives delivered on the east coast? Is it better to transport them on my own truck and trailer, or should I just have them hauled by a trucking company? Should I own the trailer, and just try to find a semi to transport it?
> 
> Thanks for any help on this first year guys. Many people with local knowledge and 30+ years experience are giving me conflicting information.


http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/in918


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## BadBeeKeeper

johno said:


> I no longer tend to find interesting discussions taking place on beesource so I have decided to take the $10 I have profited from my beekeeping efforts and invest it in the stock exchange and wish to turn it into a million bucks in the first year. I would like to add that I have little to no financial knowledge but will ask every I see for advice which I probably will ignore anyhow. I will probably place more credibility on the advice of the homeless folks I come across than on the successful investors who make their living on the stock exchange, sounds like a good plan to me.
> Johno


Well, I can tell you how to parlay a $1,000 investment into a position of acting as an unofficial 'market maker' (and a $453,000 tax bill from the IRS) over the course of 10 years, but go ahead and hit up the homeless folks first. 

I can also tell you how to lose tons of dough on a margin call in the process, as a result of violating a [previously unknown] Federal regulation.

Maybe you'd be better off with the homeless folks...



scoobertdoo said:


> Quick question about honey harvesting and early pollination service.
> 
> I am reading up about honey production and sales... I can sell the honey myself and do nothing special outside labeling, but if I want someone else to sell it, like a grocery store, the law says it has to be "bottled and stored in a commercial kitchen"
> What about extraction? Can I dump it into 5 gallon and 55 gallon containers (food grade) and sell it like that? Can I harvest, and store in my home, and later bottle in a licensed kitchen and sell it wholesale?
> 
> For pollination, will places accept an apiary with only 100 colonies? Do they have a number they like to see before you can make a decent lease fee per hive? is $40-50 per month a good rate to charge for hives delivered on the east coast? Is it better to transport them on my own truck and trailer, or should I just have them hauled by a trucking company? Should I own the trailer, and just try to find a semi to transport it?
> 
> Thanks for any help on this first year guys. Many people with local knowledge and 30+ years experience are giving me conflicting information.


You are embarking on a 'business plan' without *first* knowing the answers to these questions? :no:

As to raising your own queens...are you familiar with AHB and Fla regulations pertaining to it?


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## cbay

Someone mentioned on a similar thread one time that you'll figure things out along the way, don't try to go too fast too hard at the start and enjoy your bees. That last part stuck with me.
Best of luck to you and hope you enjoy your bees.


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## JWPalmer

The very questions you are asking show how poorly thought out your business plan is. Bottom line is you will need between 3-4 million dollars to establish an apiary with 10,000 hives and the basic infrastructure to support it. Since you will need to run for almost a year before you realize much in revenue, add another million or two for operations. If you do not have this much venture capital available, I would strongly suggest you scale back your plans. You will also find that as a group we are much more willing to help someone whose feet are at least a little closer to the ground. 

As to your question, you can get your home kitchen certified for production or utilize a canning kitchen in your area. A fully equiped extraction and processing facility will be needed as you expand. For transport, start with a 16' flatbed truck. You can add a trailer later. Once you get real big, you will probably need your own semi rig or two or five.
Local market conditions will determine how much you can charge for pollination services. Around Richmond, 40-50 per hive sounds about right for veggies. Lot of work for $400.


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## scoobertdoo

BadBeeKeeper said:


> You are embarking on a 'business plan' without *first* knowing the answers to these questions? :no:
> 
> As to raising your own queens...are you familiar with AHB and Fla regulations pertaining to it?


My business plan is coming together. I have not done anything yet (with the exception of keeping track of expenses in a ledger) to make myself a commercial operation. That will not happen until I pass 20 colonies.

Where did raising my own queens come from? I had not decided yet, and I was strongly considering buying certified hygienic queens, and/or doing walk away splits to begin with.



cbay said:


> Someone mentioned on a similar thread one time that you'll figure things out along the way, don't try to go too fast too hard at the start and enjoy your bees. That last part stuck with me.
> Best of luck to you and hope you enjoy your bees.


I agree, I have to enjoy it. I have been making sure of it. I find just building the hive boxes to be a ton of fun. 



JWPalmer said:


> The very questions you are asking show how poorly thought out your business plan is. Bottom line is you will need between 3-4 million dollars to establish an apiary with 10,000 hives and the basic infrastructure to support it. Since you will need to run for almost a year before you realize much in revenue, add another million or two for operations. If you do not have this much venture capital available, I would strongly suggest you scale back your plans. You will also find that as a group we are much more willing to help someone whose feet are at least a little closer to the ground.
> 
> As to your question, you can get your home kitchen certified for production or utilize a canning kitchen in your area. A fully equiped extraction and processing facility will be needed as you expand. For transport, start with a 16' flatbed truck. You can add a trailer later. Once you get real big, you will probably need your own semi rig or two or five.
> Local market conditions will determine how much you can charge for pollination services. Around Richmond, 40-50 per hive sounds about right for veggies. Lot of work for $400.


I am not sure how fast my ramp up will be. That is one of the big uncertainties. After much thought, My first cutoff is 20 hives. I have to be liking the job, and it has to be going well. The next point I will stop at is as big as I can go while still hauling hives myself. Once I have to start to hire transportation companies, that is another ball of beeswax. 

I will look into certifying my own kitchen. It is not big, but if I move the table out, it is large enough to fit an uncapper and a 16 frame extractor with one 55 gallon drum at a time. I am not sure how many hives I can do, solo, with a 16 frame extractor, but I am thinking about 7 medium supers an hour in honey? I also have an unused bedroom I could convert, and that could hold a heck of an extractor. 
Talking to "experts" a semi can haul 400 hives, (or one guy said 600???) and as I already have my CDL left from my last business, I can consider that my big decision point. 

The flatbed truck sounds like a good idea. I could probably get a used U-haul chassis for not much money, later I can add a 32' trailer.
Glad to hear my 40-50 price range is planted in reality. Do you know how many hives they want you to have before they will talk to you about it?


----------



## scoobertdoo

Aaronm said:


> http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/in918


I read thru that, and it contradicts itself. It says $15,000 in sales that are hand to hand. But if you look around on another page it says $50,000 and it does not mention hand to hand transactions, only says in state sales.


----------



## vtbeeguy

You should consider asking a local commercial beek to let you tag along for a day or something. At least will give you an idea of what it's like. 
I understand fully the passion for bees and wanting to become a commercial keeper. I think the best advice is to get a few hives this year and hold off on getting to deep into it until you have some experience. Would really suck to have to learn the hard lessons beekeeping teaches with hundreds of hives. But honestly good luck with whatever you decide and don't forget to have fun.


----------



## tarheel bee

This cant be real. This has got to be someone spoofing the forum. Somebody's having fun and stirrin the pot


----------



## Biermann

:shhhh:


----------



## BadBeeKeeper

scoobertdoo said:


> Where did raising my own queens come from? I had not decided yet, and I was strongly considering buying certified hygienic queens, and/or doing walk away splits to begin with.


Did I ask where it "came from"?

No, no I didn't. I asked if you were familiar with AHB, and Fla regulations pertaining to it vis a vis raising queens. I'm puzzled as to how you could so very badly misconstrue such a simple question, and instead respond with something completely different.

Fla DPI has some detailed Best Management Practice requirements for raising queens, you would do well to familiarize yourself with them as a prelude to considering embarking on such a project.


----------



## scoobertdoo

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Did I ask where it "came from"?
> 
> No, no I didn't. I asked if you were familiar with AHB, and Fla regulations pertaining to it vis a vis raising queens. I'm puzzled as to how you could so very badly misconstrue such a simple question, and instead respond with something completely different.
> 
> Fla DPI has some detailed Best Management Practice requirements for raising queens, you would do well to familiarize yourself with them as a prelude to considering embarking on such a project.


Honestly, I had not planned to raise my own. At least not for a long time. I can get queens 25 miles away for now, and hygienic queens later on when I am ready to expand more. I am a firm believer in genetics. 
https://wildflowermeadows.com/product/ups-next-day-air-shipping/


----------



## homegrown

Buy a boat. You’ll waste just as much money on it, but you’ll have way more fun!


----------



## scoobertdoo

homegrown said:


> Buy a boat. You’ll waste just as much money on it, but you’ll have way more fun!


LOL LOL LOL
I have had one for 4 years.







It still has yet to produce anything sweet for me, though it does seem to produce a lot of sweat.


----------



## JRG13

scoobertdoo said:


> Honestly, I had not planned to raise my own. At least not for a long time. I can get queens 25 miles away for now, and hygienic queens later on when I am ready to expand more. I am a firm believer in genetics.
> https://wildflowermeadows.com/product/ups-next-day-air-shipping/


Those are ok bees, nothing spectacular actually.


----------



## scoobertdoo

JRG13 said:


> Those are ok bees, nothing spectacular actually.


Have they been tried on a commercial pollination basis? It makes me wonder what the winter losses look like?


----------



## homegrown

Nice! There’s nothing quite like being out on the water on a good day.


----------



## viclozan

This has been an extremely entertaining thread. Thank you 'scoobertdoo'! I hope you continue posting progress, following this thread is almost as addictive as beekeeping. Love reading all the great contributions. I follow and consider many of the commercial beekeepers here great. I am still on the fence about this thread being a hoax though. Time will tell, if scoobertdoo keeps up the posts.


----------



## HiveDiverFarms

viclozan said:


> This has been an extremely entertaining thread. Thank you 'scoobertdoo'! I hope you continue posting progress, following this thread is almost as addictive as beekeeping. Love reading all the great contributions. I follow and consider many of the commercial beekeepers here great. I am still on the fence about this thread being a hoax though. Time will tell, if scoobertdoo keeps up the posts.


Just read through this whole thread, and I agree with above, not so sure this thread isn't just for fun. But, we all ended up here with hives, be it an idea or a dream. Best of luck with the 10,000 scoobertdoo. I hope you wont end up a "keyboard beekeeper", put in the WORK, and anything can happen...just remember that bees are "farming" and that is not always an easy gig. Please keep us posted...


----------



## EastSideBuzz

scoobertdoo said:


> I am not ignoring anyone's posts. I find all the advice helpful, and meaningful.
> I will not however be spending the next 15 years slowly building up. It is not my thing. I like to place my toe in the water (two hives) and if the water feels good for me, I jump in. If not, I will have two hives, and enjoy the honey that comes from them, as well as a lack of trespassers in my backyard. I get to play with a hive tomorrow, with the local inspector. I picked the right time of year to launch this.
> My black lab however will be staying home, I will upgrade to a yellow lab in a few years, LOL.
> View attachment 38597


I would clean the dust off that table you have your TV on and the cobwebs between the ears. Your plan is doomed and you are not going to learn beekeeping in 1 year. I am sure this thread is a joke or I sure hope you have a backup plan because you are going to fail for sure. 20 years ago before mites maybe you had a shot but, lets hear from you this time next year. At least it will only take a year for this plan to be revised.


----------



## scoobertdoo

EastSideBuzz said:


> I would clean the dust off that table you have your TV on and the cobwebs between the ears. Your plan is doomed and you are not going to learn beekeeping in 1 year. I am sure this thread is a joke or I sure hope you have a backup plan because you are going to fail for sure. 20 years ago before mites maybe you had a shot but, lets hear from you this time next year. At least it will only take a year for this plan to be revised.


It has been 2 months. I am at 6. Next split is in 30 days to 12. Thank you for your vote of confiDENSE. My backup plan is I keep making 100K a year in technology.


----------



## EastSideBuzz

scoobertdoo said:


> It has been 2 months. I am at 6. Next split is in 30 days to 12. Thank you for your vote of confiDENSE. My backup plan is I keep making 100K a year in technology.


Getting to numbers is not hard that is just math. But, keeping them alive for a year is the trick. Overwintering is not easy if it was everyone would be doing this. Also the math is a bit short to split the amount of times you want to get to the growth you want. I would just grow slowly and steady and learn. This forum is great but, there is good info and bad and you will have to learn by trial and error what is right and works in your area and for you.

If you want to get big quick. Buy out someone else operation and take the plunge. There is always someone getting out of the business and willing to sell to the right price.

See we are kindred spirits. I run 150-300 depending on my day job work load and contract requirements. I have been doing this for 10 years and glad I have a day job. Someday maybe it will be a retirement thing but, I need to have socked a couple mil from day work. "If you want to be a millionaire beekeeping start with 2"


----------



## scoobertdoo

EastSideBuzz said:


> Getting to numbers is not hard that is just math. But, keeping them alive for a year is the trick. Overwintering is not easy if it was everyone would be doing this. Also the math is a bit short to split the amount of times you want to get to the growth you want. I would just grow slowly and steady and learn. This forum is great but, there is good info and bad and you will have to learn by trial and error what is right and works in your area and for you.
> 
> If you want to get big quick. Buy out someone else operation and take the plunge. There is always someone getting out of the business and willing to sell to the right price.
> 
> See we are kindred spirits. I run 150-300 depending on my day job work load and contract requirements. I have been doing this for 10 years and glad I have a day job. Someday maybe it will be a retirement thing but, I need to have socked a couple mil from day work. "If you want to be a millionaire beekeeping start with 2"


No doubt! I am going to do my best to keep them alive.
My method is not to over manage them.
The place where I get nuks lost about 30% a few weeks ago when they fed all of their bees a sugar water laced with an additive. If mistakes can happen to a 30 year vet of this business, I can have losses too. I am sure I will.
I am going to keep my treatments to oxalic acid blasts. 
After much reading on scientific beekeeping.com I have decided as soon as I see evidence of mites I will treat every 4 days for 26 days. No less than twice a year.
I am glad we don't have winter here. I was told we have issues in summer.
I see one of the issues with summer as being solved by doing my splits. I figure the less bees in the box during a heat wave, the better. Even the bees agree, as they all go outside when it gets hot 
99% opinion 1% science. 
Let us hope that mites continue to not be able to survive oxalic acid vaporizations. If they do, we will have to all start heating our hives....


----------



## EastSideBuzz

tarheel bee said:


> This cant be real. This has got to be someone spoofing the forum. Somebody's having fun and stirrin the pot


I am thinking he is working on the most views award (5435 as of now 5/29/2018 midnight). It is either a hoax or a real dreamer. It will be fun to look back at this thread in a year.


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## Greeny

I'm pulling for you, Scoobertdoo. Following this thread to watch your progress. (OK, it is entertaining, as well).
Love your color choice too. Whites and earth tones are sooo boring! My hives are all white and oops earthtones, but you've inspired me to shake things up. I'm going to look for brighter colors on sale.


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## scoobertdoo

Greeny said:


> I'm pulling for you, Scoobertdoo. Following this thread to watch your progress. (OK, it is entertaining, as well).
> Love your color choice too. Whites and earth tones are sooo boring! My hives are all white and oops earthtones, but you've inspired me to shake things up. I'm going to look for brighter colors on sale.


Because they refuse to re-tint a mistint I had to figure out a way to do it. I got a lighter color creme, and got a super dark red sample. I made my own pink from a $7 exterior oops can and a $3 sample


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## JWChesnut

Seen today on a FB site I moderate. Not all is happy in Mudville.

One "commercial" trait Scoober picked up was tinting your hives a custom color, so they are easy to ID at a distance. Knowledge of queens, not so much.


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## scoobertdoo

JWChesnut said:


> View attachment 40571
> Seen today on a FB site I moderate. Not all is happy in Mudville.
> 
> One "commercial" trait Scoober picked up was tinting your hives a custom color, so they are easy to ID at a distance. Knowledge of queens, not so much.


You don't have to blank out my name. As I said in the reply below it, My mistakes will be public. Not sure why you posted that here, maybe you are trying to be a troll?


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## Biermann

10,000 pink hives, the women will just love you.

Good thing, it is in Florida.

I signed-out, this has been enough fun for this old-timer.

Cheers, Joerg


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## JRG13

Why didn't you post it here?? Splits have a tendency to abscond back to the parent hives under less than ideal conditions if left in the same yard. I'm betting it's pretty hot and humid in Florida now?


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## scoobertdoo

JRG13 said:


> Why didn't you post it here?? Splits have a tendency to abscond back to the parent hives under less than ideal conditions if left in the same yard. I'm betting it's pretty hot and humid in Florida now?


I only posted it there 5 min before he did it here, LOL


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## COAL REAPER

scoobertdoo said:


> You don't have to blank out my name.


rest assured, your name is still there.


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## scoobertdoo

COAL REAPER said:


> rest assured, your name is still there.


It is all over my hives, and I am state registered, and it is there too, and on the local beekeepers club membership list, ECT. I am also a ham, pilot, registered to vote, have an expired DOT number, a diving license, and another dozen federally registered items in same name. There is no point in me trying to hide, everyone knows me already!


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## JWChesnut

Not trying to troll you. 

I am pointing out that beekeeping is a "Medieval" craft where experience and apprenticeship count more than "technical whiz-kidding". The lesson you have not yet learned is humility in the face of experience.


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## scoobertdoo

JWChesnut said:


> Not trying to troll you.
> 
> I am pointing out that beekeeping is a "Medieval" craft where experience and apprenticeship count more than "technical whiz-kidding". The lesson you have not yet learned is humility in the face of experience.


Beekeeping is evolving daily. You could have 50 years experience, stop for 3 years, and have no idea what is happening. It was one of the hardest things to learn about beekeeping. All the experts had different opinions on everything! Not only different, but contradictory. 
I have to make my own mistakes, assumptions, and triumphs. 
I have been given tons of great advice, that contradicts other great advice.
All I know for sure is what color my bee hives are, and even that is fluid.
I also know my goals, and if I do not set them high, I will not achieve much.


----------



## EastSideBuzz

JWChesnut said:


> Not trying to troll you.
> 
> I am pointing out that beekeeping is a "Medieval" craft where experience and apprenticeship count more than "technical whiz-kidding". The lesson you have not yet learned is humility in the face of experience.


This is going to be a great thread to watch as time goes on.


----------



## Roland

As one of the oldest beekeeping families in the country, we can report that this youthful exuberance has happened quite often before. Many a "Flash in the Pan" in the last 166 years. Some learn from their mistakes, some don't and fade away. Where do you think all of our different brands of supers came from?

Crazy Roland


----------



## scoobertdoo

Roland said:


> As one of the oldest beekeeping families in the country, we can report that this youthful exuberance has happened quite often before. Many a "Flash in the Pan" in the last 166 years. Some learn from their mistakes, some don't and fade away. Where do you think all of our different brands of supers came from?
> 
> Crazy Roland


Personally I would rather be in the try and fail camp, rather than the never tried camp. 
Not everyone is a success at all that they do. 
Those who never try, work an entry level job and demand $15 an hour.


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## trottet1

scoobertdoo said:


> Personally I would rather be in the try and fail camp, rather than the never tried camp.
> Not everyone is a success at all that they do.
> Those who never try, work an entry level job and demand $15 an hour.


I prefer the "walk before you run" camp, or the oldie but goodie, "put the cart BEHIND the horse" camp. These approaches have worked very well for me. 

I don't think anyone is saying not to try new things, rather suggesting learning beekeeping and getting bees through the entire year before experimenting OR setting lofty goals.

I think your ambition is admirable, but if you do fail, perhaps revisit this thread from start to finish and consider hitting a reset button and start over the old fashioned way. It would probably be a lot more fun too. 

I am new at this as well with only 5 years experience. I started out with 1 hive then bought 4 more and lost them all in my second year. Year 3 started with 4 and I've only grown that to 10 (between 2 yards) by my 5th year. I chose the slow and steady approach and really take my time learning the bees. I have been guided by 1 member in particular on this forum and they are what you would consider old fashioned. Let me tell you, the very moment they took me under their wing, beekeeping became less frustrating and more fun, challenging, and as corny as it sounds somewhat life changing. 

I would hate to see you fail and get discouraged and give it all up when all you would have needed to do was slow down and enjoy it.

Good luck
Todd


----------



## crofter

I sense lots of trite ideological sentiments like what the self help soft cover books are full of.

I put more faith in a somewhat realistic appraisal rather than one which seems to depend for its success upon the odds of catching lift from lofty predictions.


As for insisting upon making your own mistakes, Dad used to say "Learn from others mistakes, you don't live long enough to make them all yourself"


----------



## scoobertdoo

1 month to recover from that little setback. I have 8 now, with 6 queens. Next 8 way split in 3 weeks! https://imgur.com/a/X7jYKZt


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## Smokeybee

Great to hear, I think timing for splits is pretty much at the end here in SC. What method of splits are you using?


----------



## scoobertdoo

Smokeybee said:


> Great to hear, I think timing for splits is pretty much at the end here in SC. What method of splits are you using?


Pure walk away. Varroa is reduced by the broodless time, and they seem to make their own queen quite well.
I can buy queens, and I may buy a few of the hotter VSD resistant queens to add to the local gene pool.


----------



## Smokeybee

scoobertdoo said:


> Pure walk away. Varroa is reduced by the broodless time, and they seem to make their own queen quite well.
> I can buy queens, and I may buy a few of the hotter VSD resistant queens to add to the local gene pool.


I'm far from an expert (second season newbie), but I've been successful with OTS splits this year, it also uses brood breaks for VM control. Worth looking into.


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## JWPalmer

Do you have enough drawn comb to make 8 splits? The comb drawing season is just about over and I suspect you don't have 40 drawn frames laying around. Keep the feed flowing heavy and you might get a few more by August but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

I'll be making splits in a few weeks too, but I will be breaking down double deeps to get frames. I am throwing everything I have at them now trying to get that one or two extra frames drawn out.


----------



## scoobertdoo

JWPalmer said:


> Do you have enough drawn comb to make 8 splits? The comb drawing season is just about over and I suspect you don't have 40 drawn frames laying around. Keep the feed flowing heavy and you might get a few more by August but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
> 
> I'll be making splits in a few weeks too, but I will be breaking down double deeps to get frames. I am throwing everything I have at them now trying to get that one or two extra frames drawn out.


I am close enough to the ocean that we have a year round pollen flow, and a 8-10 month nectar flow. That is how it has been described to me.
I saw a worker with wax growing on her just last weekend. I hope to keep expanding. This morning is the moment of truth. I will go see how they are building out. I have 6 that are all alternated(cant think of the word right now) drawn and undrawn frames.
Our fall flow starts in about 2 months. We will see how much they have done in 7 days. My next check is in 14 days, when I hope to do my next split. Time will tell.


----------



## Jackam

Just saw this and thought of your endeavor.

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?347521-BEEKEEPING-BUSINESS-FOR-SALE

It's your head start!


----------



## scoobertdoo

Jackam said:


> Just saw this and thought of your endeavor.
> 
> https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?347521-BEEKEEPING-BUSINESS-FOR-SALE
> 
> It's your head start!


No, i'm good. I don't want debt in any of this. 
If I don't have the cash, I dont have the bees. 
I am doing OK, I am just planning how to get 4 pallets from Miami to north florida for less than an arm and a leg.
Trying to build what I have to do a big split soon. I would like to go to a total of 24 on this next split. Only time will tell, and so will my checkbook.
I have 4 months to hit my goal of 100 this year. Finances may prevent that, and I may end up at 50 strong colonies. Not bad thou, Cali would nab me about $7500 take home at 50 12 frames. Big dreams, let us see if I have any more setbacks this year. I have a lot of learning to do.
I just went gloveless this week.


----------



## lharder

I was always a proponent of think big and at least mediocrity can be achieved. Think small and nothing is achieved. So I am not opposed to an aggressive growth rate. 

I am considered an "aggressive" beekeeper around here with how many starts I make. This is my 5th summer and may have about 120 colonies with queens starting with about 40 this spring (and one to begin). After that initial colony I have only bought a few queens. I am TF so that of course has slowed me down as I have higher mortality and am developing the stock as I go. I do lots of culling of marginal stock as well as I am interested in quality and go through a few queens to get it. You can get lots of queens mated but lots will be marginal and won't do much for you. 

So its not just a simple mathematical growth rate. You need strong colonies as a backup to ambitious plans. You need to weed out weaker queens or you will be building from weakness not strength. At some point you become the bottleneck in terms of building equipment. Abandon a number goal and make sure most of your hives are strong in numbers and stores, and you have enough equipment and locations to house the next batch of splits. Your bees will tell you what is possible. Listen to them rather than imposing an abstraction on them. They grow in numbers plenty fast on their own.


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## Hillbillybees

Come on in the waters fine but be warned its choppy at times to the point of near drowning. Hang onto your boat. 

I truly hope you make it but if there are any takers I'll put up a $1000 says you don't make your plan work to the first 1000. Just too good of odds to pass up. Buy all the queens you want but not bees. Just follow your plan as stated. 1000 colonies ready to go at the beginning of 2020 season.


----------



## SWM

"Hey, Babalugats! We got a bet here."


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## Barhopper

Why are you getting pallets from Miami? There should be plenty a lot closer. Have you tried Dadant’s in High Springs? D&J in Umatilla? I’d bet building them would be cheaper.


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## soarwitheagles

Hey Scooby!

I admire your positive outlook and dream to expand.

We too have a similar dream [but smaller], but we're going about it a wee bit different.

We have only purchased one bee colony, and focused more on splitting and capturing swarms. 99% of our bees are from feral colonies.

Presently we are at 100+ colonies and are preparing to multiply up to 200 colonies, then, hopefully another 200 nucs before September. So that would be 400 total before fall sets in. 

What can I say?

Hmmmm....

First, be careful who you share your dream with! A large percentage of the people I have shared my dream with have responded with deep skepticism and negativity! If I listen too much to them, I feel like giving up.

Second, for just my wife and I, it is a lot of work. We have had to hire some helpers.

Third, we made many, many mistakes simply due to lack of experience. If we did everything right for the last two years we would presently be well over 1,000 colonies. So it has been quite a learning experience!

Fourth, it requires quite an investment when considering all the wood ware and equipment.

Last, we discovered we cannot afford to be lax in colony inspections. Gotta stay on top of the bees on a daily basis if we expect to expand and succeed.

Good luck to you and I hope you succeed!

Soar

PS We have received massive help from the beekeepers here at beesource. We are thankful for the people here!


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## Corp_T

soarwitheagles said:


> Hey Scooby!
> 
> We have only purchased one bee colony, and focused more on splitting and capturing swarms. 99% of our bees are from feral colonies.
> 
> Presently we are at 100+ colonies and are preparing to multiply up to 200 colonies, then, hopefully another 200 nucs before September. So that would be 400 total before fall sets in.


How long has this taken you? I've got 2 hives right now, with a minimum goal of 80-100 by the time I'm done. However, without flat out buying them I'm not certain the timeframe I should be expecting.


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## enjambres

Note that Soarwitheagles is in California, so his climate and growing season is different from even the warmest parts of Connecticut.

Nancy


----------



## JWPalmer

Corp_T said:


> How long has this taken you? I've got 2 hives right now, with a minimum goal of 80-100 by the time I'm done. However, without flat out buying them I'm not certain the timeframe I should be expecting.


A lot depends on how successfully you overwinter your hives. With a lot of planning and hard work, you could probably reach your goal in 2-3 years. Woodenware and drawn comb are the bottlenecks. Get as much drawn as you can and keep it all the same size for now. Spend your winters making nucs, hives, and frames with foundation so you are prepared. It goes really fast when things get hopping. My climate is similar and I am over twenty hives from three this spring so I suspect you could also grow by a factor of eight. As the flow ends, growth slows way down, so plan on overwintering a lot of nucs. MP style resource hives might be a good choice.


----------



## HarryVanderpool

The easiest thing to do is _get_ bees.
Keeping them alive and healthy is an entirely different story.
That is bee_keeping._


----------



## soarwitheagles

Corp_T said:


> How long has this taken you? I've got 2 hives right now, with a minimum goal of 80-100 by the time I'm done. However, without flat out buying them I'm not certain the timeframe I should be expecting.


Corp,

We purchased our one and only honeybee 'package" two springs ago. So it was a handful of bees and a caged queen. We lost our very first colony [a swarm] due to massive non-stop nocturnal ant attacks.

The next year we expanded up to 12+ colonies but dropped down to 7 colonies by springtime. Last year we expanded up to 30+, but due to lack of experience and lack of inspections, we dropped down to less than 20 this spring. 

Presently we are at 100+ colonies, so we multiplied by a factor of 5 since spring. Not bad, but we could have done much, much better.

As mentioned earlier, we focused upon swarm catching and splitting existing colonies. Most of our limited growth occurred due to the following reasons:

1. We did not have enough wooden ware [boxes, covers, bottoms, etc.] built and ready. We literally had to leave dozens of swarms simply because we had no boxes built for em'.
2. We lost many colonies due to ignorance and lack of excellent management skills.
3. We lost some colonies due to lack of varroa mite treatments.

Most of our success can be attributed to JRG [he often came over and showed us how to work bees such as splitting, queen finding, inspecting, and many, many other management skills]. Also, we attribute our successes to many of the people here at Beesource who have been very patient with us and given us massive amounts of desperately needed advice.


----------



## scoobertdoo

Hillbillybees said:


> Come on in the waters fine but be warned its choppy at times to the point of near drowning. Hang onto your boat.
> 
> I truly hope you make it but if there are any takers I'll put up a $1000 says you don't make your plan work to the first 1000. Just too good of odds to pass up. Buy all the queens you want but not bees. Just follow your plan as stated. 1000 colonies ready to go at the beginning of 2020 season.


It all hinges on next year. 2019 will show what I have. If I am at 250-500 by years end, I can hit 1000 easy. The money from pollination, and nuc sales will have me at 1000 quickly. Of course nuc sales could also make me enough money that I choose not to go beyond 500 until the end of the year in time for pollination. Once I hit 100, finding land will be the next big step I have 5 properties that I will be asking for permission to place bees. 3 of them are within 1 mile of my home. I will be starting that search in december. Not sure how slow I will go this year, money is an issue just now, divorce isn't cheap.


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## soarwitheagles

enjambres said:


> Note that Soarwitheagles is in California, so his climate and growing season is different from even the warmest parts of Connecticut.
> 
> Nancy


Great point Nancy! I suppose I should be more thankful for such ideal beekeeping climates and such!


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## Jackam

scoobertdoo said:


> 1 month to recover from that little setback. I have 8 now, with 6 queens. Next 8 way split in 3 weeks! https://imgur.com/a/X7jYKZt


And how are you doing as of August?


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## scoobertdoo

Jackam said:


> And how are you doing as of August?


Sitting on 11 successful colonies, Started feeding this week. Doing an increase saturday to two more, and 8 more by the end of the month. 
I should have my official queen permit this week, as my inspection was done last week. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ADJmDrMrgc
I am having trouble with one of my nuc boxes, and I need to figure it out. No matter what I put in it, I have killed two splits in that box. 
I will be adding bottom holes and screens this week to do one more split and bring me to 14 for saturday. Each time they died, there was water in the bottom of the box, so I need to give that water somewhere to go IMO. I now have my first pallet, and will order 4 more pallets next week to bring myself to a shipping size of 20. I will add more later this year, still wanting to be to 50+/- before the end of the year for january shipment to almonds. Still learning, 3 months in!


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## clyderoad

Eleven successful colonies, that is wonderful progress! A real beekeeper.
You are deep in the game now and closer than ever to your hive goal for the year.
What was the goal again? 100? or is it 50?

have you figured out why 'the experts have different opinions on everything'?
and that with 50 years of experience keeping bees one would still have a very good idea of what's happening after only a few years away from
the bees?

Keep up the good work, and please continue to post updates.


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## scoobertdoo

clyderoad said:


> Eleven successful colonies, that is wonderful progress! A real beekeeper.
> You are deep in the game now and closer than ever to your hive goal for the year.
> What was the goal again? 100? or is it 50?
> 
> have you figured out why 'the experts have different opinions on everything'?
> and that with 50 years of experience keeping bees one would still have a very good idea of what's happening after a break of a few years?
> 
> Keep up the good work, and please continue to post updates.


Thank you for the kind words.
IMHO it seems that people just get set in a way of doing things. I have learned to respectfully listen, digest, and acknowledge all of the free opinions I am given. 
What matters at the end of the day is what works for me. So far my "always be splitting" strategy has worked. My bees are super healthy.

To my goal... It has become a money issue, as I am starting a new business and paying for a divorce. If the money was there I could be at 30, now and 100 by year end, no problem. 
The truth is I am spending a lot elsewhere. I am trying to diligently chip off 500-1000 a month right now for bees. That equates to 5-10 colonies a month. Sadly it has been closer to 5 a month. First 3 cost me 1000, and now the cost per is $110. I think 50 is still a realistic goal with 6 months until they ship, and I am expected to have a 12 frame average per colony. Doing the math just a few days ago, I was thinking it would be 60, ready to go, but I could still have a setback or make a mistake. Lucky for me, mistakes are not going to cost money, only time. Losing a split costs me nothing. I am thinking of selling nucs this year. Each one I sell would pay for a full colony almost. Thou honestly at this point I would be happy enough with pollination just giving me all of my investment back, and spring honey making me a little cash. Big moves will happen next year. 50 coming back would become an easy 100 as soon as they show up.


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## Hillbillybees

scoobertdoo said:


> I hope to go to 100-150 hives this year, and 1,000 next year. I should be able to quit my job in 2020 and go full time then.


Your off by half to one third. Looks like its going to take a little longer than you thought. Stick with it you'll get there. Have you got your contract for the almonds yet?


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## scoobertdoo

Hillbillybees said:


> Your off by half to one third. Looks like its going to take a little longer than you thought. Stick with it you'll get there. Have you got your contract for the almonds yet?


I have a broker.


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## JWPalmer

That is so cool. Here in the Richmond area we dont get much for pollination. Once I hit 30 hives I am giving it a go, but 40 to 50 bucks per hive for six weeks just doesn't seem worth the hassle.


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## scoobertdoo

JWPalmer said:


> That is so cool. Here in the Richmond area we dont get much for pollination. Once I hit 30 hives I am giving it a go, but 40 to 50 bucks per hive for six weeks just doesn't seem worth the hassle.


If the crop is mutually beneficial EG you get honey you can sell, then 50-60 is worth is. The honey in Cali is nasty stuff, so you dont get any. So they pay more.


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## Matt yocham

This is interesting


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## R055

I was in your shoes about 3 years ago. Tried to jump in right away and bought 150 hives(in April of that year). The beekeeper told me he treated them for mites and I will be good until fall for mite treatment so didn't bother even thinking about mites. Come August the bees started disappearing and long story short I was left with 20 hives next spring. That year I was able to divide enough times to have 130 next spring. 330 this spring which I took to almonds. And have ~600 right now. 
One of my biggest regrets other than killing those 150 hives from in expierence was skimming money on Queens and buying the cheapest mated Queens on Craigslist. Much better now that I've been buying more expensive Queens from a big company in California. Wasted a bunch of time and money on those cheap Queens and only half those hives turned out to be nice good hives. Good Queens+mite treatment+food have been treating me really well. 
Another thing is I could have had about 800 this year but when I brought the 330 back from almonds they were really strong and started swarming almost immediately. I still have my full time job and couldn't get a week off to divide all of them. Many of the hives that swarmed made their own Queens and I thought all is good. The weather when the Queens were hatching was bad andnot having enough time to take care of all the hives many lost/replaced their Queens and slowly died off. Should have bought new mated Queens for the hives that swarmed and would have been around 800 right now. 
Hoping next year I'll be able to get enough money from the 600 to go full time beekeeping or atleast to get the whole spring/summer off to take care of them and grow to 1000 hives which is at the moment my end goal. 
Not sure about going higher than 1000-1200 because of the crazy employee laws/regulations in washington. Want to keep it to just enough work for me and to make a decent living off them. 
Also it was easy going from 20 hives to 130 that year because I had all the drawn out frames from from my initial failed investment. The biggest bottleneck I'm guessing for you will be money or drawn frames. This spring/summer I've been doing my full time job and working on the bees every evening and full day Saturday. Very time and energy consuming. 
Keep in mind you will also need a truck trailer and forklift when you reach about 100-150 hives and want to move them anywhere.


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## jim lyon

scoobertdoo said:


> If the crop is mutually beneficial EG you get honey you can sell, then 50-60 is worth is. The honey in Cali is nasty stuff, so you dont get any. So they pay more.


Well, sort of. Almond honey is nasty but you don't get much and it disappears pretty quickly. They pay well for almonds because they demand large hives at a time of year when bees aren't typically large and the dangers and obstacles to moving cross country for an almond check are many. Factor in hive prep costs, trucking costs, brokerage/handling fees, California taxes, theft risks, entry inspections, release and trucking delays and the overall risk of having your bees out of your control and the inherent potential for pesticide and disease exposure and you will soon realize that the pot of gold loses much of its glitter.


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## The Honey Householder

After watching your youtube video this really needs to be bumped to beekeeping 101 form.:bus


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## JWPalmer

The comment above prompted me to watch the video. Good news on the healthy hives. But I do have a question. Where are all the bees? What I saw appeared to be more a bunch of nucs in 2 deep 10 frame equipment. When you lift a lid on a stong hive, the bees come rolling out and almost every frame is covered. Keep the feed on them and you'll get there but I saw nothing that was even close to being ready to split again (and I split pretty aggressively). Good luck and keep us posted.


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## scoobertdoo

JWPalmer said:


> The comment above prompted me to watch the video. Good news on the healthy hives. But I do have a question. Where are all the bees? What I saw appeared to be more a bunch of nucs in 2 deep 10 frame equipment. When you lift a lid on a stong hive, the bees come rolling out and almost every frame is covered. Keep the feed on them and you'll get there but I saw nothing that was even close to being ready to split again (and I split pretty aggressively). Good luck and keep us posted.


I am following the theory of keeping queens in emergency mode. As many splits as they will suffer, very few bees, tons of 1:1 to build them up faster(just started feeding sunday). Based on the health of my colonies after 3 months, I would say that it is working.
Yes, few bees in each colony, by design. The only thing slowing me down is money and a lack of pallets. I could have them all in singles and be at 40 colonies right now if I had the pallets and money  What I am doing, seems to be working well. Only time will tell how my plan worked out. I will not have large colonies until november/december/january.


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## scoobertdoo

R055 said:


> I was in your shoes about 3 years ago. Tried to jump in right away and bought 150 hives(in April of that year). The beekeeper told me he treated them for mites and I will be good until fall for mite treatment so didn't bother even thinking about mites. Come August the bees started disappearing and long story short I was left with 20 hives next spring. That year I was able to divide enough times to have 130 next spring. 330 this spring which I took to almonds. And have ~600 right now.
> One of my biggest regrets other than killing those 150 hives from in expierence was skimming money on Queens and buying the cheapest mated Queens on Craigslist. Much better now that I've been buying more expensive Queens from a big company in California. Wasted a bunch of time and money on those cheap Queens and only half those hives turned out to be nice good hives. Good Queens+mite treatment+food have been treating me really well.
> Another thing is I could have had about 800 this year but when I brought the 330 back from almonds they were really strong and started swarming almost immediately. I still have my full time job and couldn't get a week off to divide all of them. Many of the hives that swarmed made their own Queens and I thought all is good. The weather when the Queens were hatching was bad andnot having enough time to take care of all the hives many lost/replaced their Queens and slowly died off. Should have bought new mated Queens for the hives that swarmed and would have been around 800 right now.
> Hoping next year I'll be able to get enough money from the 600 to go full time beekeeping or atleast to get the whole spring/summer off to take care of them and grow to 1000 hives which is at the moment my end goal.
> Not sure about going higher than 1000-1200 because of the crazy employee laws/regulations in washington. Want to keep it to just enough work for me and to make a decent living off them.
> Also it was easy going from 20 hives to 130 that year because I had all the drawn out frames from from my initial failed investment. The biggest bottleneck I'm guessing for you will be money or drawn frames. This spring/summer I've been doing my full time job and working on the bees every evening and full day Saturday. Very time and energy consuming.
> Keep in mind you will also need a truck trailer and forklift when you reach about 100-150 hives and want to move them anywhere.


I somehow missed your post. Very good read, thank you!
My requeen plan is every 3 generations I will introduce a new series of queens. My luck with the kona/hygienic queens from Hawaii has been amazing. Mixed with local genetics has made me a great apiary. 
I wish I had the cash to buy someone out, but alas, No one was selling 150 colonies for 10K lol. I am glad I started with 3, gave me a few months to learn. I plan to keep learning, and my quitting goal is 500 colonies. 
After that I will go full time beekeeper. I am at a nice spot right now. I spend about 2 hours a week in my apiary with 13 colonies, half the time fighting mosquitoes, one quarter keeping the smoker lit, and one quarter on bees, LOL.


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## scoobertdoo

I have hit 14 now as I caught a swarm (with help) that decided to stop in my backyard while looking for a home. No idea what type of bee they are, they are not the same type as mine. Not at all aggressive thou, so I will keep them. Queen is the smallest I have ever seen.
https://youtu.be/_cF5QNv3kKY


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## JWPalmer

Small queen could be still a virgin queen. Never did see the swarm cluster but assume it was rather small as you seem to have gotten all the bees in three bucket shakes. That is the best way to increase the size of your apiary. Free bees that come to you!


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## msl

If you can, get a mentor. 
The inspection video was painful, colonlys that still should have been in a nuc spread out across 2 deeps....

You are misunderstanding the emergy theory you working with..
In small splits like you doing, the limiting factor is not the queen, its bees to tend brood. You need 4 or more frames of bees for good growth. At them point if there is feed and good weather you looking at growing by about 2 frames a week http://scientificbeekeeping.com/understanding-colony-buildup-and-decline-part-4/
This is why resource hives work so well as you keep them small eunff they stay in expatiation mode and have enuff bees to do it


Expantion advice form what was at the time the bigist beekeeping opperation in the world 


> Miel Carlota started with five hives June 5, 1943. In 12 years, they had perhaps 50,000. (According to R.B. Willson, 1955, Gleanings) The growth was amazing. They had huge crops, were extraordinarily progressive, and entered an area with no commercial beekeepers. In their beekeeper’s guidebook, they present a plan for other beekeepers wishing to expand. It’s almost childish in its simplicity. Start by purchasing two hives, then split them every four weeks. You can see how they got to 16, 385 colonies in just one year. It’s the magic of compound interest!


https://badbeekeepingblog.com/2017/06/05/miel-carlota-once-the-worlds-biggest-bee-farm/

Brood factory's, cell building, mating nucs, and pulling nucs instead of splinting hives

give these a gander and get to building some nucs and divided deeps for Palmer style resource hives 
https://www.beeculture.com/net-gain-cell-building-system/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YBy31StyWA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nznzpiWEI8A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7tinVIuBJ8


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## Jackam

msl said:


> If you can, get a mentor.
> The video was painful, colonlys that still should have been in a nuc spread out across 2 deeps....


I was thinking about this today as I was driving and then come to see my thoughts in print already.

Watching the videos posted was an eye-opener. 
Perhaps the OP should learn a bit about bee keeping. When he's self-sufficient in his yard and doesn't need someone to capture a honey-engorged swarm, perhaps he will be able to successfully multiply his herd and keep them alive.

This is my 5th year and I STILL don't have all the answers. If someone GAVE me 100 hives, I'm not sure that the 100 personalities would be tended to properly.

This post won't deter the OP. Time will though. (I'm rooting for him anyway!)

I just didn't realize just how inexperienced he was...


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## scoobertdoo

Jackam said:


> I just didn't realize just how inexperienced he was...


Completely inexperienced. Thanks for noticing  

I have one major factor in my favor. I am constantly in my hives, and when i see something that does not look right, I ask 98,000 members in a beekeeping group.
I also poll the people at my local beekeepers meeting. Some of them have been doing this for their entire lives. The problem is that no two of them have the same opinions. 
I have yet to find two beekeepers who agree on anything (I find it wildly funny). 
I needed help catching the swarm because I had 0 experience in capturing a swarm, and had no tools to do it. The man I called does 6-10 a week. I am glad he came, he even clipped and marked the queen for me. 
Bo is probably the one I look up to most, and I tend to take most of what he says as fact. It would only make sense I called him, I was glad he was willing to help. I have a great group of beekeepers here, and I am glad to be part of them. I try not to miss a meeting.


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## Roland

Why would you want to catch a swarm? Those bees are prone to swarming. You want bees that build to big hives and do NOT swarm.

Crazy Roland


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## homegrown

Great point Roland. I’ve wasted so many hours in the past chasing down swarms. These days I just shake em into a tub of soapy water, No more distraction.


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## cbay

I mentioned early on to "enjoy your bees". Think it was Mark B. who said that in a post to an aspiring beek long ago in a thread. It always stuck with me.
As you grow there will be more and more times where it is out of duty rather than enjoyment to get things done. But if your heart is in it then the gratification of accomplishing the work will prevail.
Lot of road to travel in the first couple years. Beyond that i don't know yet, but it sure is a fun ride.
Best of luck to you.


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## msl

> Why would you want to catch a swarm


why not, till the op gets his numbers up and can start grafting and nucing he need to make increase any witch way he can... once he hits that point he will be re queening most of his stock anyway


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## Jackam

Roland said:


> Why would you want to catch a swarm? Those bees are prone to swarming. You want bees that build to big hives and do NOT swarm.


I think the guy was right to grab the swarm for a few reasons.

1 - we have no idea why they swarmed (inexperienced beek not giving them the room they needed?)

2 - He's trying to build his numbers. Even if this wad of bees are prone to swarm, he can split them and spilt them.

3 - He needs the experience. These bees he can play with, experiment with, and if he goofs up, he's out nothing monetarily. 

Lastly, he should have done ALL the work, with the experienced beek guiding him. Watching is one thing, a mentor lets you do it.


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## scoobertdoo

Roland said:


> Why would you want to catch a swarm? Those bees are prone to swarming. You want bees that build to big hives and do NOT swarm.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Fantastic question! How can you pass up a swarm in your own backyard? I figured at least they would build some nice comb for me, and I could requeen with a kona/hygienic in a month


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## JRG13

I put no stock in swarms anymore, but have had some decent ones. The OP will learn one way or another, it takes bees to make bees.... yes you can continually split weak hives but could you outpace someone letting hives get strong then splitting each one down 8 ways.... don't think so.


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## JWPalmer

Scooby, what you lack in exeperience you more than make up for in enthusiasm and willingness to learn. True there are many different opinions and ways to keep bees, but most all lead to the same net result. Follow the advice that rings true to your heart, but remember that all is good intentioned. If something goes wrong, learn not to make the same mistake. Also remember that if you ask 100 beekeepers and 90 tell you the same thing, the other 10 are probably wrong.


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## Roland

It is very hard to remove unwanted genes from the gene pool. Bees that swarm easily do not make as much honey as those that build into large populace hives. Choose quality over quantity for the most efficiency. It will be easier later to double from a fewer large populace hive than to manage a large number of swarmy hives.

Crazy Roland


----------



## Woodside

scoobertdoo said:


> Hello everyone!
> After watching my grandfather enjoy bees as a hobby, I decided to take the plunge and setup a apiary.
> My first two hives should be up and running in the next two weeks, and those will be my starters.
> I can set up 12 hives at my home permanently, and for up to 60 days I can have as many as I want (if I am reading the law correctly?)
> Once I have 12 established colonies I will try to find a chunk of AG land to lease from one of many local massive farms.
> I hope to go to 100-150 hives this year, and 1,000 next year. I should be able to quit my job in 2020 and go full time then.
> Yeah, big dreams, right? Well maybe. I ran my own business for 17 years, so I have an idea what is involved.
> Commercial pollination is what I am after, and a little honey for me from my 12 hives at my home
> 
> What to you think? A bag of popcorn and watch me fail, or do I seem to be planted in reality here?


You can do this, but you must buys some bees.

1) make sure you have first year queens in all your hives - every single year #1 importance in beekeeping after defeating varroa
2) since you are in FL you will need to mite treat like once/2 weeks all year because there is no brood breaks
3) buy empty drawn comb/boxes for expansion. You will have to buy ~50 full sized hives ($10k) to get to 150 this year
4) FEED! like... i know in FL there are flows and mini flows, but you will be building BEES and drawing alot of comb. You need massive amounts of feed and maybe even pollen sub.
5) Feed again I am talking like 1gal/week when not in a surplus honey flow.
6) be able to sustain 30k debt for a year
7) going from 150 to 1k is pretty much the same as getting to 150 except the costs are 6x greater plus you will now need a truck/forklift


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## Smokeybee

Scoober,

Who are you getting your queens from? I found one company selling "Kona queens" but they had a minimum order of 20-something...


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## couesbro

Scoobertdoo,

I see that in March 2018 you had planned on having 100 to 150 hives by years end. I was wondering if you had an update on your hive expansion from the two hives in March. My ultimate goal is to be at roughly 50 hives and I am hoping for some tips on how to get to that goal.


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## johno

Hey guys how did the commercial thread get taken over by Beekeeping 101
Johno


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## JWPalmer

:thumbsup:


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## jim lyon

Actually I found it entertaining. Not knocking the concept of someone wanting to become a commercial beekeeper, its just that.......well, the thread title says it all.


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## JWPalmer

Jim, I agree that the thread is entertaining, but John is right, it belongs in the beekeeping 101 sub forum. Perhaps Rader or Squarepeg could move it to the appropriate location? What I find absolutely hilarious is that another beekeeper is asking Scooby for advice.:lpf: 

I suspect however, that the question was more of a poke at Scooby's very aggressive plans for expansion rather than a legitimate request for advice.


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## couesbro

JWPalmer said:


> Jim, I agree that the thread is entertaining, but John is right, it belongs in the beekeeping 101 sub forum. Perhaps Rader or Squarepeg could move it to the appropriate location? What I find absolutely hilarious is that another beekeeper is asking Scooby for advice.:lpf:
> 
> I suspect however, that the question was more of a poke at Scooby's very aggressive plans for expansion rather than a legitimate request for advice.


In all honesty, it was a slight poke at his aggressive plans for expansion, but if he was successful to some degree I am open minded enough to listen to his methods. I do have a goal of 50 hives though by the fall of 2020.

I do not think that I will ever know more than I don't know about bees.


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## jim lyon

I just find it amusing to arbitrarily pick out a nice round number like 10,000 as if there is some significance to it. I've run 5,000 hives for decades, its a doable number to operate and oversee with some good help. I've had many opportunities to expand and have decided against it for a number of reasons. The main ones are I'm making a good living right now and I'm pretty sure that having twice as many hives wouldn't make me a happier person. Heck, I know a guy making a living off of under 1,000. He pays his bills and he enjoys life more than me. If I'm jealous of anyone, its of the guy running 1,000 and not the guy running 10,000.


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## The Honey Householder

Well said Jim. 
I run around 1000 hives, it might be 1007.5 hives and raised 8 kids from that operation. Really enjoy what I do for a living.
I think when you get to big, your more of a manager then a beekeeper. I see those operations that run 40-50K hives and wonder how you can manager that many hives. It takes some great beekeepers and a lot of labors. 

Money isn't everything. You have to have the time to enjoy life. I'm getting my fishing poles loaded in the truck today. Dad and the boys are going salmon fishing for the week.


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## Hillbillybees

Salmon fishing. I used to fly up to Alaska every year and catch Silvers on the fly. Now the only bugs I got time for are the bees. I envy you the trip with your boys. Hope you have a great week with lots of fish.


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## jim lyon

The Honey Householder said:


> Well said Jim.
> I run around 1000 hives, it might be 1007.5 hives and raised 8 kids from that operation. Really enjoy what I do for a living.
> I think when you get to big, your more of a manager then a beekeeper. I see those operations that run 40-50K hives and wonder how you can manager that many hives. It takes some great beekeepers and a lot of labors.
> 
> Money isn't everything. You have to have the time to enjoy life. I'm getting my fishing poles loaded in the truck today. Dad and the boys are going salmon fishing for the week.


Now I'm really jealous.


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## Roland

No one talks about economy of scale. Not pollinating, and with one shop, as the numbers get past 2,000 hives, the mileage costs start to increase. You can only put so many hives within economical driving range of the shop. 

Has Mr. Lyon has alluded to this in his post?

Crazy Roland


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## HarryVanderpool

I have not gone fishing or played golf for 30 years.
I have 5 motorcycles in the garage that have not been started in 5 years.
Other than that, I do find time to cut firewood and put in a large vegetable garden every year.
Bees take over your life.
You've got to love it or........


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## Joel

Like Harry I worked and built my business over many years. Started in 1992 and built to adequate Beekeeping proficiency in 1996 running 50 hives. In 1998 I started the NYC Markets and for the next twelve years I literally worked 2 full time jobs. At 59, my youngest son is my full time partner, We love what we do and, at 27 he owns his house and cars completely debt free and his future is solid. beekeeping is a farming, farming is not an easy career, it is a career for people who love being out in nature and are willing to work harder than they ever thought they could in all weather, economical, and industry conditions. Many days are working among the bees in beautiful summer blue sky’s and not a moment of it feels like work, other days are loading bees onto trailers in the dark, in the rain, getting stung so many times you would have never imagined it as hobbyist and then hitting the road hot and sweaty at 2 a.m and driving for 16 hours only to unload for a couple hours on the other end. A successful beekeeping business, like any, is about good planning, determination and a drive to “own your days. If that’s you then go for it....I walked out of 60K a year job with full benefits in 2010 that I loved to do this and I have never looked back and if you believe in yourself and are willing to work hard so can you.


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## broncorm

I’ve been watch this read with an interest. I’m trying to build up a little slower then jumping right to 1,000 it one year. My goal was to increase to 20 but end up with about 50 going it to winter. At what point does it go for hobby to sideline to commercial?


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## R055

broncorm said:


> I’ve been watch this read with an interest. I’m trying to build up a little slower then jumping right to 1,000 it one year. My goal was to increase to 20 but end up with about 50 going it to winter. At what point does it go for hobby to sideline to commercial?


 I believe there is a huge gap between hobby beekeeping and commercial. I see it as 0-50 hives is hobby territory. 50-750 is alot of work but not enough to replace your full time job. 750+ commercial beekeeping with enough earning potential to support bees and your family. 

After my initial purchase of 148 hives turned to 20 by winter, I've been increasing and at 520ish at the moment. Wouldn't have been possible without me making a good amount of money from my full time job. Took many days off and worked weekends, weekday evenings on bees this year and still didn't have enough time to take care of all my hives. 
Had 310 this spring for almonds. Spent almost all the money I got from almonds to expand to 600(bought enough boxes, frames, and pallets for 600 hives). Didn't have the time to assemble and paint boxes and take care of the bees and full time job.
Could've been at about 700 right now if I had time to split and half of them didn't swarm. Don't know what I'm going to do next spring with 500 hives and not being able to leave my job just yet.


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## JWPalmer

The economics would suggest that you hire and train some high school students to assist you. What would those additional 200 hives had paid in almonds this year?

Playing devil's advocate, I would disagree that the distinctions are so large between commercial and hobby, but would agree that there are distict levels of commercial. At my current count of 16, no question I am at the hobby level. But next year will see me producing nucs for sale and expanding into an outyard with around 50 hives. The year after, I hope to get a few veggie pollination contracts. That to me is commercial, but on a micro scale.


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## R055

JWPalmer said:


> The economics would suggest that you hire and train some high school students to assist you. What would those additional 200 hives had paid in almonds this year?
> 
> Playing devil's advocate, I would disagree that the distinctions are so large between commercial and hobby, but would agree that there are distict levels of commercial. At my current count of 16, no question I am at the hobby level. But next year will see me producing nucs for sale and expanding into an outyard with around 50 hives. The year after, I hope to get a few veggie pollination contracts. That to me is commercial, but on a micro scale.


200 hives is $35000 at the prices I was payed last year for just almond pollination alone. 
Finding workers for beekeeping isn't as easy as paying some high-school students. The workers are needed most in the spring when school is in session. They know nothing about bees and most don't want to learn. If I still have my full time job then I can't teach any workers unless they only want to work evenings and weekends(nobody wants to do that). I've had enough bs with workers and L&I that I don't want any workers. That's why my end goal is 800-1000. I would be able to take care of them myself full time.

At waahington employee fees and prices to have a full time yearly worker I would need atleast 1500 hives(1000 hives to provide for family and bee costs + 500 hives to provide for employee+washington employee fees and costs).


----------



## jim lyon

Roland said:


> No one talks about economy of scale. Not pollinating, and with one shop, as the numbers get past 2,000 hives, the mileage costs start to increase. You can only put so many hives within economical driving range of the shop.
> 
> Has Mr. Lyon has alluded to this in his post?
> 
> Crazy Roland


This is certainly the case for some. We are fortunate to be fairly centrally located and can reach any location in less than an hour, so its more a decision of what size of truck is most efficient on a given day. I would say almost without exception that operations of 10,000+ do a lot of bee moving to locations far from their main extracting plant through the course of the year and almost all of them are heavily reliant on foreign workers.


----------



## Roland

Thank you Jim. That is a point that is seldom considered when expansion is discussed. 

The rule of thumb for many years was 45 minutes to the beeyard, no more, and then there had to be a day's worth in that area.

Crazy Roland


----------



## Joel

HarryVanderpool said:


> I have not gone fishing or played golf for 30 years.
> I have 5 motorcycles in the garage that have not been started in 5 years.
> Other than that, I do find time to cut firewood and put in a large vegetable garden every year.
> Bees take over your life.
> You've got to love it or........


Thankfully I never got the Motorcycles...the rest is spot on! There are so many days it is the hardest work one can do and yet if you love it many of those are the best ones! At 59 and 25 years in I still can't wait for the next bend in the road.


----------



## Smokeybee

OP, can you post an update?


----------



## jim lyon

According to his profile he hasn't been active on Beesource since September. One can only guess.......


----------



## loggermike

"The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley" ........


----------



## JWPalmer

Scooby posted a short video on his YouTube channel back at the end of Nov. At that time, he was dealing with a pretty significant SHB infestation. No word since then on how his bees are faring.

https://youtu.be/L5D4IyMQTso


----------



## The Honey Householder

jim lyon said:


> According to his profile he hasn't been active on Beesource since September. One can only guess.......


Jim, 
My guess is he is so busy building equipment and working bees that we will never hear from him again.:applause:


----------



## JWChesnut

He's active on a FB group where I moderate. I believe he is sending 4 hives to California on a pallet. His hive count is 12 or so. He has been bothered by SHB recently, loosing some to slime. He detailed his one single pallet construction (supported on couches in his living room), a painful experience to witness. Lately he's been talking out nuc sales as his route to riches. Most excruciating for me has been his willingness to offer "expert" advice to the more junior newbees on the forum.


----------



## couesbro

JWChesnut, 

Thanks for the update. Only 9,988 more hives to go. It won't be long now; the almond orchards will soon be over run with pollinating hives. I wish him well.

Does the acronym SHB stand for Stud Honey Bees?

I think nuc sales could be quite profitable. 5750 nucs sold at $175 ea. should be a 7 figure gross income.


----------



## The Honey Householder

If he makes his nucs like he makes his hive the SHB will love him. 

I make a lot of nucs and trying to keep up with drawn comb and still getting large honey production is become a problem for me. It's hard turning down those nucs sales, but with honey prices up over $2.50. It looks like the nucs sales are getting cut this year. 2019 is all about how high honey prices going.


----------



## scoobertdoo

You old men all still alive? Pfft, the rumors of my downfall have been supported by couches for awhile now.
I got a new leather couch, so everything is built on my kitchen table now. 
I have just sent 8 colonies to Almonds. 
I have two packed colonies left behind. 
Last year I sold 6 nucs. 
I have lost about 6 colonies of various sizes for various reasons. Most likely all neonics. (lol) 
I treated them all for varroa last week.

The plan is to turn the 8 colonies into 30-40 when they return. My goal is to be at 100 by years end, with 50 additional nucs. Split split split, feed feed feed.
I would like to send 26 pallets of bees 1 year from now.

In case any of you are keeping track, I made 20 colonies from 3, in April, and lost 6 of 20. so 14 successful. Nearly a 500% increase after losses.

Oh, and I suck at growing sunflowers.


----------



## JWPalmer

I don't think that you are going to get 100 hives and 50 nucs off 10 colonies in one season. The goal of 40 hives from the eight is doable, if they come off of almonds queenright and healthy.

I started last year with 2 overwintered hives and an overwintered nuc. I have sixteen total colonies right now, all with home grown queens. I don't count failed splits or colonies that did not make it to fall or I would say that I made over thirty colonies. Aggressive splitting is not easy and alot can go wrong.


----------



## jim lyon

scoobertdoo said:


> You old men all still alive? Pfft, the rumors of my downfall have been supported by couches for awhile now.
> I got a new leather couch, so everything is built on my kitchen table now.
> I have just sent 8 colonies to Almonds.
> I have two packed colonies left behind.
> Last year I sold 6 nucs.
> I have lost about 6 colonies of various sizes for various reasons. Most likely all neonics. (lol)
> I treated them all for varroa last week.
> 
> The plan is to turn the 8 colonies into 30-40 when they return. My goal is to be at 100 by years end, with 50 additional nucs. Split split split, feed feed feed.
> I would like to send 26 pallets of bees 1 year from now.
> 
> In case any of you are keeping track, I made 20 colonies from 3, in April, and lost 6 of 20. so 14 successful. Nearly a 500% increase after losses.
> 
> Oh, and I suck at growing sunflowers.


Hey, best of luck, no one here wishes you any ill will. However, to put things in perspective. Your initial plan was to be at 100-150 a year later and 1,000 at the end of 2019. You are currently at 10 hives and are optimistic you can turn that into 100 at the end of this year. I would second JW's assessment that a one year 10 fold increase is probably not realistic. Perhaps now you can more fully appreciate why you were met with some skepticism at your original business plan but I certainly wish you all the best and admire your ambition.


----------



## scoobertdoo

jim lyon said:


> Hey, best of luck, no one here wishes you any ill will. However, to put things in perspective. Your initial plan was to be at 100-150 a year later and 1,000 at the end of 2019. You are currently at 10 hives and are optimistic you can turn that into 100 at the end of this year. I would second JW's assessment that a one year 10 fold increase is probably not realistic. Perhaps now you can more fully appreciate why you were met with some skepticism at your original business plan but I certainly wish you all the best and admire your ambition.


If I shoot for the moon and miss, I still am shooting very high. Without a super huge goal, I may stop when I hit my lowered goal.


----------



## Greeny

scoobertdoo said:


> If I shoot for the moon and miss, I still am shooting very high. Without a super huge goal, I may stop when I hit my lowered goal.


There's always going to be those who are all too ready to shoot holes in others goals and ridicule lofty plans. Keep at it. I admire a goal-setter who picks himself up from setbacks and refocuses on his goal.
Good Luck!


----------



## EastSideBuzz

There is a fine line between genius and madness. Good luck with your plans if you are able to pull it off then you can write the book.


----------



## lharder

The cool thing with bees is that with some knowledge and practical skills, its possible to get pretty good growth. I'm going from 40 last year to about 90 or 100 this year and am freaking out a bit about how many boxes and frames I have to build. Last year was spent building boxes like crazy for the hives started, this year for the grown up hives. Plus sites to install. Beekeeping will suffer. Easy to keep up with 500 percent growth at the beginning. 

The thing that set me back one year was selling nucs. And I wouldn't send my source stock to almonds. Aggressive splitting is asking enough of the bees.


----------



## Hillbillybees

From 40 to 90 is not aggressive splitting. 10 to 100 is a joke. But maybe he will get to 50 which is still asking a lot but Florida is forgiving. The old pay me a penny for the first nail to shoe your horse and only 2 cents for the second etc would put him at his numbers faster with more knowledge and strong bees that would make a crop and be strong enough for pollination. Make 1 into 3 early every year. 30, 90, 270, 810, 2430, 7290 and finally he has arrived. That is if he keeps every single one alive. He has I hope proven to himself that isn't the case. 
He will not be able to afford all the woodenware and frames to do it. He will need 500,000 frames alone to accomplish this task of 10,000. That's a million plus dollars. 
Its just not going to happen. I dont like to see anyone fail, but. If he had a rich daddy willing to fund him a few million maybe.
And as for setting high goals at least make them attainable.


----------



## scoobertdoo

:waiting:


----------



## NorthMaine

Someone is not having a good day.


----------



## jim lyon

This really sucks for whosever bees these are. Fortunately this load seems to have tipped over from, perhaps, a decision by the driver to get off too far onto the shoulder and dosent appear to have happened with much if any forward momentum. Regardless, its still gonna be a mess to get everything straightened up, particularly if it happened in an area where some flying bees would be considered by some official as being a public safety hazard.


----------



## soarwitheagles

scoobertdoo said:


> :waiting:


That pic is of scoobertdoo with his new suit on and using his new smoker!  

Notice he has a very big smile!

Those are scoobertdoo's honeybees. 

He hijacked them and he's gonna meet his goal of 10,000 colonies MUCH faster than any of us ever realized....


----------



## HarryVanderpool

When one has 10,000 hives and no help, reversing 408 at a time speeds things up.


----------



## AHudd

That would shorten the time frame from forever to 25 days.

Alex


----------



## ifixoldhouses




----------



## lharder

Hillbillybees said:


> From 40 to 90 is not aggressive splitting. 10 to 100 is a joke. But maybe he will get to 50 which is still asking a lot but Florida is forgiving. The old pay me a penny for the first nail to shoe your horse and only 2 cents for the second etc would put him at his numbers faster with more knowledge and strong bees that would make a crop and be strong enough for pollination. Make 1 into 3 early every year. 30, 90, 270, 810, 2430, 7290 and finally he has arrived. That is if he keeps every single one alive. He has I hope proven to himself that isn't the case.
> He will not be able to afford all the woodenware and frames to do it. He will need 500,000 frames alone to accomplish this task of 10,000. That's a million plus dollars.
> Its just not going to happen. I dont like to see anyone fail, but. If he had a rich daddy willing to fund him a few million maybe.
> And as for setting high goals at least make them attainable.


I am tf so my growth rate is slower plus in Canada with s shorter season. Plus I'm just not that good. Plus I am very happy with just linear growth and consolidation at this point. I made a bunch of boxes yesterday, about a 1/10 of what I may need this season. My main concern is comb. Don't have enough of it. This season will be devoted to it. Another thing with expansion is that revenue is always a year or 2 behind but your expenses are up front. I probably won't make much honey this year and can only sell a few nucs as I want to fill up another yard with them.


----------



## scoobertdoo

1 year status update. 
Due to financial constraints I have been unable to expand as fast as I wanted to. Divorce is expensive.
I started with 3 nucs last year. One year later I am at 20 full size colonies. 
My bees are making gallons of honey, and I harvest in about 3-4 weeks.
I hope to be at 8 pallets for almonds this winter.... 32 colonies. If I had the money I could have done another full split and have been at 12 pallets(50 colonies) for Almonds.
I have also sold about 6 nucs last year. I could have been at 100 colonies if not for financial reasons. Just wanted to post an update.


----------



## Greeny

I am glad to see an update from you.
Life sometimes gets in the way of our plans, but it sounds like you're still moving forward.
Keep at it, and keep posting updates!


----------



## fieldsofnaturalhoney

scoobertdoo said:


> I have also sold about 6 nucs last year. I could have been at 100 colonies if not for financial reasons.


For many reasons, I am not sure you should have sold nucleus, if you are trying to get pallets of bees. If you had more money how would you spend it on the operation?


----------



## ifixoldhouses

You would drive 3,000 miles and stay two weeks for 32 colonies? what's that $6,400? $200 each colony or what?


----------



## psm1212

scoobertdoo said:


> 1 year status update.
> Due to financial constraints I have been unable to expand as fast as I wanted to. Divorce is expensive.
> I started with 3 nucs last year. One year later I am at 20 full size colonies.
> My bees are making gallons of honey, and I harvest in about 3-4 weeks.
> I hope to be at 8 pallets for almonds this winter.... 32 colonies. If I had the money I could have done another full split and have been at 12 pallets(50 colonies) for Almonds.
> I have also sold about 6 nucs last year. I could have been at 100 colonies if not for financial reasons. Just wanted to post an update.


Congratulations. That is about a 7-fold increase in a single season. Given your other obstacles, I would call last year a huge success for you.

Good luck and keep us posted.


----------



## scoobertdoo

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> If you had more money how would you spend it on the operation?


I could make 12 splits today. They would be able to be split in 30 days again. and 30 days after that with enough time to increase into 8 frames for winter. So I could be at 80 to send west if I had the money. I could have also split 4 weeks ago, but again, I haven't the money for the nucs of boxes or frames. However, with honey sales coming up, I hope to make quite a bit from that.


----------



## JWPalmer

Scoob, do you own a table saw? A single sheet of Advantech, about $33, will make 9 deep nuc boxes. Screened bottom boards, inner covers and telescoping tops can be made for around another $15 per nuc. Way cheaper than spending your hard earned money on pre made woodenware. Foundationless frames are less than $1 each when you by the frames in lots of 100, including a starter strip and wax. I could not easily afford this hobby if I did not make most of my woodenware myself. You know the saying, ya gotta spend money to make money. Best of luck on your splits.


----------



## scoobertdoo

JWPalmer said:


> Scoob, do you own a table saw? A single sheet of Advantech, about $33, will make 9 deep nuc boxes. Screened bottom boards, inner covers and telescoping tops can be made for around another $15 per nuc. Way cheaper than spending your hard earned money on pre made woodenware. Foundationless frames are less than $1 each when you by the frames in lots of 100, including a starter strip and wax. I could not easily afford this hobby if I did not make most of my woodenware myself. You know the saying, ya gotta spend money to make money. Best of luck on your splits.


I do not own a table saw. 
I do make my nuc tops myself. Comercial style, and poorly, just out of a 10" board.
I just got 100 unbuilt frames, but I got foundation too so $2 a frame. 







I have not invested in a table saw, and will not until I build my garage this year. 
I have built a bee pallet myself now too, lol.


----------



## JWPalmer

Who needs a garage? I set up my wood shop in what used to be the living room. Granted, it was not being used at the time since we built on to our house 20 years ago. Building your own hives is very rewarding in both a financial and motivational way. It also helps if you have a place to store the completed goods. One of the bedrooms in my house became"the bee room". Hive bodies stacked floor to ceiling, extra frames, bottom boards, tops, etc. all on shelves waiting for me. Fortunantly for me, the wife is ok with all this. Something you now do not need to worry about. Anyhow, the point is that you should go ahead and get a table saw with at least 22" rip capacity. Look on Craigslist for a good deal. Then build your own stuff and split to your heart's content.


----------



## scoobertdoo

JWPalmer said:


> Who needs a garage? I set up my wood shop in what used to be the living room. Granted, it was not being used at the time since we built on to our house 20 years ago. Building your own hives is very rewarding in both a financial and motivational way. It also helps if you have a place to store the completed goods. One of the bedrooms in my house became"the bee room". Hive bodies stacked floor to ceiling, extra frames, bottom boards, tops, etc. all on shelves waiting for me. Fortunantly for me, the wife is ok with all this. Something you now do not need to worry about. Anyhow, the point is that you should go ahead and get a table saw with at least 22" rip capacity. Look on Craigslist for a good deal. Then build your own stuff and split to your heart's content.


I am about to remodel and upgrade my house. The living room is going off limits to anything more damaging than the dog. 
I will also be getting a new kitchen table, so I can't build there anymore either  
My garage will be 24x30 and the back 10' will be my wood shop, AND a commercial kitchen  3 sinks ECT. 
Honestly its not that hard to make a commercial kitchen, I read up on it. I really want to sell online, so I have to build one.
I may also rent it out to food people for prep work.


----------



## JWPalmer

There is an idea. If zoning permits, you may be able to get a food truck vendor to use the area as their commissary. Could be worth a few hundred a month.


----------



## scoobertdoo

JWPalmer said:


> There is an idea. If zoning permits, you may be able to get a food truck vendor to use the area as their commissary. Could be worth a few hundred a month.


Thats the idea. My neighbor got zoned to wash/detail cars at his house, and I have enough room for a few big trucks in my lot.


----------



## Gray Goose

Roland said:


> Why would you want to catch a swarm? Those bees are prone to swarming. You want bees that build to big hives and do NOT swarm.
> 
> Crazy Roland


you must be jesting, A) you could requeen them and b) that is simply not true.


----------



## Gray Goose

scoobertdoo said:


> 1 year status update.
> Due to financial constraints I have been unable to expand as fast as I wanted to. Divorce is expensive.
> I started with 3 nucs last year. One year later I am at 20 full size colonies.
> My bees are making gallons of honey, and I harvest in about 3-4 weeks.
> I hope to be at 8 pallets for almonds this winter.... 32 colonies. If I had the money I could have done another full split and have been at 12 pallets(50 colonies) for Almonds.
> I have also sold about 6 nucs last year. I could have been at 100 colonies if not for financial reasons. Just wanted to post an update.


thanks for the update, i am sure lots of folks are watching to see how fast you hit your goal.
GG


----------



## scoobertdoo

Gray Goose said:


> you must be jesting, A) you could requeen them and b) that is simply not true.


My last queen to swarm I recaptured. They pulled 5 frames of foundation on new frames in a week like nothing. By week 3 they had pulled 10 frames.
Swarms are great for building comb.


----------



## Roland

Grey Goose, since this is a Commercial forum, I will reply. I do NOT want any swarms, or their drones. If I requeen, I am still stuck with their drones. If I am trying to steer my gene pool away from swarming, they would be counterproductive. Yes, some strains of bees are much more prone to swarm than others. 

My goals are to make large populace hives for honey production. We have been working on that genetic goal for 167 years. Swarmy hives do not put food on the table. 

Crazy Roland


----------



## Gray Goose

Roland said:


> Grey Goose, since this is a Commercial forum, I will reply. I do NOT want any swarms, or their drones. If I requeen, I am still stuck with their drones. If I am trying to steer my gene pool away from swarming, they would be counterproductive. Yes, some strains of bees are much more prone to swarm than others.
> 
> My goals are to make large populace hives for honey production. We have been working on that genetic goal for 167 years. Swarmy hives do not put food on the table.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Great point, thanks for offering it. I still somewhat disagree, if it is your swarm that build up way faster than you thought and ran out of space, is it a swarm gene queen? if it is,, then the 167 years of pushing away the swarm gene, is not been fully effective. Scoob was referring to catching his own emerging swarm. I presume you are ok with catching your own Swarms, or do you "label" them a throw back to a swarmy gene, and resist? Even in commercial operations, one could have a bit more pollen stored than the Average and a bit more honey bound than the average and a very prolific Queen run out of space and swarm. IMO the queen that runs out of space is not necessarily the one I do not want. Your point is Valid some Genes do swarm more, but IMO not Always the case. As well my point about requeening is valid, Most of the commercial operations I am aware of get 100's of queens and do splits or requeening, Somewhat as a matter of course, 1 or 3 more into a swarm hive would not be a big deal. I do get you do not have the time to mess with them, which I would agree with, As I barely do. As well at some point if you have 100's of hives in you area, for 167 years, the swarms are likely descendants of your hives that swarmed in the past, also your stock. At some level Bees are bees, requeen with your current standard and move forward, Requeen them and sell then to others folks and use the funds for truck maintenance, wooden ware. I understand not wanting them, However IMO they do have value to someone, so unless time is just too scarce use them for what you can. Scoob is strapped they have value to him. 162 years ago when your family was just starting, I bet they cought and kept the swarms. Likely Scoob's great Grand children will have your same opinion  
GG


----------



## The Honey Householder

Roland said:


> Grey Goose, since this is a Commercial forum, I will reply. I do NOT want any swarms, or their drones. If I requeen, I am still stuck with their drones. If I am trying to steer my gene pool away from swarming, they would be counterproductive. Yes, some strains of bees are much more prone to swarm than others.
> 
> My goals are to make large populace hives for honey production. We have been working on that genetic goal for 167 years. Swarmy hives do not put food on the table.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Roland,
Very well said. 
My family hasn't been in this honey game as long as your. Our goals are to get the right bee for the job, and make the biggest crop at all cost. Swarming hives are a deal breaker. I can't afford a 1% swarm production. Most comm. operator know management is key to that. 8 frames of brood is more then enough for big honey production. 7 year APH is 147 lbs. This year might be the big one.inch:


----------



## Roland

Grey Goose. 

These 4 swarms in the last 10 days are at my house in a suburban area. I have one Cordovan nuc at my house, shake out package bees and an itinerant Koehnan Queen that was loose on the outside of a package.

On the first warm days , there where NO snoopoers, so all of these bees are most likely from "Beehavers". My yards are 10 miles or more away.

They look Russian to me, not Cordovan , so not mine.

IFFF they where mine, I would not keep them. There is reason to believe that mean hive swarm close, and gentle hive swarm far away. By keeping your own close swarms, you may get meaner bees.

If one our queens runs out of space, we are not doing our jobs, and shame on us. Crowded queens do not lay as many eggs as those with plenty of room to lay. More bee, more honey, right Ron?

I wounder what the price of packages would be if all of those that let their bees swarm this year did not need to urchse more next year?

Crazy Roland


----------



## Gray Goose

Roland said:


> Grey Goose.
> 
> These 4 swarms in the last 10 days are at my house in a suburban area. I have one Cordovan nuc at my house, shake out package bees and an itinerant Koehnan Queen that was loose on the outside of a package.
> 
> On the first warm days , there where NO snoopoers, so all of these bees are most likely from "Beehavers". My yards are 10 miles or more away. Same here no early snoopers
> 
> They look Russian to me, not Cordovan , so not mine. I am still not the best at telling what kind they are.
> 
> IFFF they where mine, I would not keep them. There is reason to believe that mean hive swarm close, and gentle hive swarm far away. By keeping your own close swarms, you may get meaner bees. I did not known this trend, so meaner must come from crossing itself, I I will hope for the long distance swarms.
> 
> If one our queens runs out of space, we are not doing our jobs, and shame on us. Crowded queens do not lay as many eggs as those with plenty of room to lay. More bee, more honey, right Ron? Same I "try" to stop the swarming, most of the time I succeed but it seems some still find they way.
> 
> I wounder what the price of packages would be if all of those that let their bees swarm this year did not need to urchse more next year?
> The price for what you actually get is crazy, I wonder what the price would be if there were almost no winter loss? I Know some beehavvers who purchase packages each spring and they do not make the winter.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Comments. in line in your quote. Hope you have a great year. been wet here so I am thinking the dearth will be delayed.
GG


----------



## Roland

I had some yard work to do near one of the swarm hives( a swarm that landed in empty equipment). Had nearly a dozen (one at a time) "buzzers" that keep flying around my face. Killed all of them, and they where all "Clear with a black butt" .. The abdomen is yellow with no stripes until the end , where it is all black , not banded like an Italian. And they propolize everything.

I can not afford to let those genes into my gene pool, so I will hunt down the queen and strike ALL of the drone brood. A Strachan NWC is to arrive on Thursday. Good ridance.

Crazy Roland


----------



## Jackam

Still in the bee business?


----------



## Smokeybee

I sure hope that he is. I hate to hear about the divorce but I'm still rooting for ya!


----------



## Jacobee

WOW!!!!!! this thread is like a car crash and i cant turn away. when i had my colon surgery i didnt take advice from my surgeon either i explained to him my way was better .


----------



## JWPalmer

Scooby is an interesting guy. You can follow his exploits by searching Youtube for Scooby's Scoop. Nothing recent regarding the hives but there is some footage of riding a motorcycle in Peru. I don't think 10,000 is going to happen this year either.


----------



## couesbro

I was afraid Scooby might be a one shot wonder, I was hoping he would make it to 10,000 so I could learn from him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUfOZzp1ih4


----------



## Jennings

I'm not sure a commercial kitchen and a wood shop in the same space is a good idea. Sawdust will be in everything.


----------



## Bradley_Bee

That 17 years of business experience didn't exactly help you out any huh...


----------



## Bradley_Bee

https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...00-trapouts-cutouts-swarms-and-splits-in-2010

I knew this reminded me of something .. It took me several years to get past the 1000 mark. - Almost 10 years later, I'm at 1300 at Peak Season.


----------



## JWPalmer

Did you ever make the 100 mark that year? The blog stops abruptly without any follow up. Seems like long ago, wait, it was.


----------



## JWChesnut

Joshua, aka Scooby is on a FB page I admin, this is his most recent update. 

I have asked him to come over and give you a first person update.


----------



## JWPalmer

Does Scooby know that bees do not see the color red? Hope to hear from him. His latest video titled _yellow bird_ left me puzzled.


----------



## JWChesnut

--


----------



## EastSideBuzz

JWPalmer said:


> Did you ever make the 100 mark that year? The blog stops abruptly without any follow up. Seems like long ago, wait, it was.


Wow a blast from the past. I have a feeling that his plan was ultimately flawed. There was no way to get there from here.


----------



## JWChesnut

Scooby acknowledged that he hasn't been by this thread, said he was busy pouring cement for a "garage/honey house"

Today's post by the Scoobs' illustrates his major new expansion.


----------



## Jackam

LOL


----------



## scoobertdoo

Ah, the doubters are here still today. The expansion is going very well JW. 
The trailer you posted is already spoken for on a hobby farm for next year with 16 colonies on it. 







I now have a second trailer, and I am far from done. These little 12-20 colony trailers will make it easy to find hosts. I will most likely stick to small trailers for a couple years while I keep buying equipment. My honey haul this year will be almost 3000#. 
I am not at the numbers I said originally, mostly because I am selling nucs like crazy. I have sold close to 50 nucs so far. This has helped fund my expansion, but has kept my numbers lowish. I am also moving out of my back yard next year with the bee colonies, and into farms. 
The honey house pad is poured. It came out very nice. Full disclosure its a honey house, with 2 car garage. It will however have a seperate wall, and entry and be an inspected commercial kitchen.


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## Jackam

Time for your 5 month check up


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## Akademee

I too have been looking forward to an update! Any more trailers?


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## scoobertdoo

After the world longest divorce, I can expand again. Here is my apiary today. Please keep in mind I sold about 50 nucs over the last 20 months.


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## scoobertdoo

This is my new honey house.


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## Smokeybee

Glad to see you're still in it!


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## Schultz

Very cool, looking good!


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## HarryVanderpool

scoobertdoo said:


> After the world longest divorce, I can expand again. Here is my apiary today. Please keep in mind I sold about 50 nucs over the last 20 months.
> 
> 
> View attachment 55333


Scooby, aren't those boxes supposed to have stinging insects flying in and out of them?


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## Roland

Now Harry, don't ya know it's "Safer at Home"?????

Crazy Roland


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## dgl1948

scoobertdoo said:


> This is my new honey house.
> 
> View attachment 55335


Food inspector here will not allow any exposed wood in a honey house.


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## scoobertdoo

dgl1948 said:


> Food inspector here will not allow any exposed wood in a honey house.


I am covering the walls with the plastic like you use in a bathroom. Floors will be linoleum. It will not be inspected, I am not that big yet. I still have my 24x24 slab that will be my inspected honey house, but I am not big enough yet to worry about it. Aiming for 5000# this year total, so I will still be cottage. Last year I think I was at 1800#


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## scoobertdoo

HarryVanderpool said:


> Scooby, aren't those boxes supposed to have stinging insects flying in and out of them?


They do, but the mosquitoes have yet to build any comb.


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## msl

> Aiming for 5000# this year total, so I will still be cottage


cottage in FL only applys to the "primary home kitchen" 
5,000# at face to face retail? man that's a lot of farmers markets


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## JWChesnut

Scooby got out.


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## HarryVanderpool

Good move on his part.
Getting OUT of bees properly is just as important as getting started properly in my opinion.
One thing our industry could use much less of is, abandoned equipment, setting around becoming mite-bombs year after year.
I wish him the best.


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## psm1212

I was always rooting for him. Wish him well. 

In 2017, I decided to get pseudo-serious about tracking my beekeeping revenues and expenses. I have it set up as a business with financial software. Track everything. I know the exact cost of goods sold in each product I sell. Down to the shrink wrap cost of the a stick of lip balm. Truck mileage is tracked. Storage costs, sugar, treatments, conferences (saved on that this year!). I expense all of my equipment purchases (no depreciation). 

Despite selling all of the honey I have made, usually months before the next crop is ready, I have yet to break even. It is a tough business for sure. If you are trying/needing to rely on its income to put food on your table, you better not start with 2 colonies and a dream. It will take you a lifetime to turn that into a profitable business. And that is only if you are lucky.

But I applaud ambition and hard work. Good luck Scooby.


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## jim lyon

Well he did say “I might be looking to get out”. In any case he gave us some good entertainment. Best of luck to ya Scoob.


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## Roland

Yup, right it off as "Entertainment expense". Or maybe this was just the attitude adjustment he needed to succeed?

Crazy Roland


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## LizardKing

This is a very informative thread for a newbie such as my self!
 😆🤣
I have very ambitious goals like Scooby too!
I hope to get some bees this spring, one or two hives worth.
The following year I hope to still be a bee-haver and if I get some honey for the house
out of the deal I will be very pleased! 
I've been told by an experience guy that being a beekeeper is easy but being a bee-haver 
takes some effort.
Maybe I can split some and expand wildly to like FOUR or FIVE hives!
There is a sure fire way in all this for me to become a multi-millionaire though.
At some point I hope to turn some of the bee profits into lottery tickets with numbers chosen
by a local palm-reader/psychic.
What could go wrong?


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## Gray Goose

LizardKing said:


> This is a very informative thread for a newbie such as my self!
> 😆🤣
> I have very ambitious goals like Scooby too!
> I hope to get some bees this spring, one or two hives worth.
> The following year I hope to still be a bee-haver and if I get some honey for the house
> out of the deal I will be very pleased!
> I've been told by an experience guy that being a beekeeper is easy but being a bee-haver
> takes some effort.
> Maybe I can split some and expand wildly to like FOUR or FIVE hives!
> There is a sure fire way in all this for me to become a multi-millionaire though.
> At some point I hope to turn some of the bee profits into lottery tickets with numbers chosen
> by a local palm-reader/psychic.
> What could go wrong?


you could change your screen name to Scobber2, it would ensure lots of reads.....

good luck, do the math and try not to get ahead of your self, if cost is an issue watch some of the Sam Comfort UTubes.

GG


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## crofter

Doing the bee thing only adds uncertainty; skip that move and invest the money directly on the lottery tickets.


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## LizardKing

Gray Goose said:


> good luck, do the math and try not to get ahead of your self, if cost is an issue watch some of the Sam Comfort UTubes


Just looked him up and he promotes treatment free but I do see his DIY stuff and see why
you recommended him.
That is some seriously low buck alternative stuff right there. 
Wow!
I wonder if he dries his used paper towels to reuse them?
Will I start smoking ganja, use a tiny kid's smoker, and wear ugly shirts if I watch his videos?

Crofter, if the goal is just to make money then you have excellent advice.
Who knows if I will even like keeping bees?
If I win ten million dollars on the lottery should I then buy 10,000 hives?


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## crofter

"Who knows if I will even like keeping bees?" That is something that I think many people come face to face with. Even 50 colonies might bring this into focus. Sweat running into your eyes and down the crack in your ----, will sure make you wonder why you thought it a good idea.

I dont know if 10,000 colonies is enough to soak up 10 million but it could probably put a good hole one million.


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## HarryVanderpool

"In business; it takes money to make money".
Commercial beekeeping is a business and takes A LOT of money to properly and successfully operate.
Many failures that I see in beekeeping are RIDICULOUSLY under capitalized.
For some reason, many new beekeepers see commercial beekeeping as something that they can get into on a shoestring.
BIG MISTAKE! The annual feed, fuel, queen, upkeep bills and many, many others are WAY out of reach from a shoe string.


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## Gray Goose

LizardKing said:


> Just looked him up and he promotes treatment free but I do see his DIY stuff and see why
> you recommended him.
> That is some seriously low buck alternative stuff right there.
> Wow!
> I wonder if he dries his used paper towels to reuse them?
> Will I start smoking ganja, use a tiny kid's smoker, and wear ugly shirts if I watch his videos?
> 
> Crofter, if the goal is just to make money then you have excellent advice.
> Who knows if I will even like keeping bees
> If I win ten million dollars on the lottery should I then buy 10,000 hives?


LK

keep your day job and try to from 2 just double each year,
2,4,8,16 by the spring of year 4 when you see what survives the winter you will have enough insight to know if you should keep it up. If you could buy 10000 hives and 8000 are dead in the spring then, the lesson gets expensive.
At the 50 hive mark, making some of your stuff makes cents. And then is the time to go all in, after you understand the game you just entered.

the the Sam frame is a 5 cent stick, rather than the 2 dollar frame. He has a following, not sure on the Ganja part,,. Amazing times we live in.
Sitting around the family Thanksgiving or Christmas gathering,, Smoking the Ganja, then go to church,,, the illegal part, the family gathering, and going to church..

GG


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## msl

LizardKing said:


> Will I start smoking ganja, use a tiny kid's smoker, and wear ugly shirts if I watch his videos?


mabey!
You also might start selling 3,000+ queens a year like him😉


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## LizardKing

msl said:


> mabey!
> You also might start selling 3,000+ queens a year like him😉


There's the best part, I do believe he is selling 3,000+ queens a year.
There is no shortage of interesting, odd, and contradictory info in the apiculture field.
Ask three beekeepers a question about the best way to do something bee-related and get five different
answers.



> Sitting around the family Thanksgiving or Christmas gathering,, Smoking the Ganja, then go to church,,, the illegal part, the family gathering, and going to church..


Clown World!
Fact is, the normal, decent people are still the majority but the clowns run the gov't and
media and hate them with a passion.



> That is something that I think many people come face to face with. Even 50 colonies might bring this into focus. Sweat running into your eyes and down the crack in your ----, will sure make you wonder why you thought it a good idea.


Sounds like something people really hate these days: hard work.
I really really really don't think I can handle 50 colonies.
Health issues among the reasons.
Double every year?
Whoah!
That means twice the work and costs.
The pet bird market is terrible these days, I love to handfeed baby birds and sell them but there is little demand
when even 20 years ago I could sell all the handfed baby birds I could produce in less than a week.
Now it takes weeks.
One part of the problem I had was getting breeding stock, the other people selling birds sell their 
trash and getting good breeding stock is hard.
It's killed the market.
My best guess is to split and increase my hives so I can replace losses due to inexperience and things
going wrong and if I do good and have more than I want, pay it forward to new and other keepers.
Maybe decide it is too much work and have to pass it all onto someone else....
Beats me, if I could predict the future I'd be a billionaire right now.


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## ifixoldhouses

If you wanna make a "Small fortune" in Beekeeping ya gotta start with a "Large Fortune"


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## JWPalmer

LK. I started with one hive, which I killed 6 months later. Good thing for me that I started building swarm traps as soon as I had bees. One of the traps hit a month in. That hive and the splits from it have kept me going these past years. I got to where 20 hives and 20 nucs are as much as I can handle while still working a full time job. 

Sitting around smoking Ganja, takes me back 45 years. The times they are a-changin.


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## LizardKing

JWPalmer said:


> LK. I started with one hive, which I killed 6 months later. Good thing for me that I started building swarm traps as soon as I had bees. One of the traps hit a month in. That hive and the splits from it have kept me going these past years. I got to where 20 hives and 20 nucs are as much as I can handle while still working a full time job.
> 
> Sitting around smoking Ganja, takes me back 45 years. The times they are a-changin.


I hear the stories of how easy it is to lose a hive.
Local guy will be helping me so I will going with his guidance on all things and he
is downsizing because he has a job and feels he has too many hives.
He's told me about plenty of others who buy bees every spring which is not what I want to do.

One thing I am interested in but can't do right away are a horizontal hive.
One issue I worry about it lifting weights of a traditional vertical hive and the 
fact I can make any sorta hive I want and do enjoy the woodwork.
I see a lot of hype and have tons of material on them so anyone with experience
tell me of that will be a huge mistake I will regret later or not.
Looked at some Comfort hive videos and he loves his political slant on beekeeping
but he does have a cheap system that works for his queen rearing.
I suppose one could crush and strain or sell cut comb if one wanted to use his scrap wood
hives for honey and I do have thousands of those bamboo skewers in the shop but those hives
don't tickle my pickle right now.

As for the ganja smoking it takes me back more like 35 year ago but I am not young
and healthy enough to want to mess myself up with drugs or alcohol for fun anymore.


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## Gray Goose

Well setting goals is a good start. there are ways to go fairly cheap, and likely you could turn a small fortune into a cup of coffee if you worked at it for a few years.
Keep us in the loop on how it goes.
Sadly some of the new folks can provide entertainment for old crotchety Beekeepers.
BTW we all were there at one time. Had All my hair and did not need glasses then too.

GG


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## Beetastic

This thread is an interesting conversation piece, and the title has obviously grabbed attention. Whether or not the OP really believes they are on their way to 10,000, is for me, almost irrelevant at this point. Because like many here, I know the realities of trying to build a successful commercial beekeeping operation from scratch. And so I wanted to relate my honest experiences, as I transition to full time beekeeping from my current but rapidly disappearing self-employed business that has been shuttered by Covid-19.

I have been keeping bees for around a 10 or 11 years. I started as a hobbyist with one backyard hive. I started raising queens early on, probably 3rd year in. I dabbled with 50-70 colonies for a few more years after that, until the hobby either had to make itself pay, or get scaled down. So, I went for it.

I switched over from all mediums to all deeps, and have been able to double my numbers for the last 4 years. I had around 40 colonies when I started "going for it" in the spring of 2017. I raise my own queens, so I am able to save some costs there, and more importantly get queens early, and have decent quality control. I can get the ball rolling earlier in the year during/after almond pollination. I usually do my first grafts the 2nd or 3rd week of March, weather permitting of course. For me, raising queens has been one of the keys to success.

Every beekeeper reading this will have a different situation in regards to their location, thus helping decide what the best business opportunities are available for them and their bees. I am only a few hours away from the almond orchards I pollinate, and the hive rental fees make the business of almond pollination my main source of income derived from my bees. I've gone from taking 24 colonies on my first pollination contract, to taking around 300 this year. My plan is to split out to 600 and stay there for a while, with the hopes of taking around 500 in 2022.

Costs… Buying 100 boxes and 1000 frames isn't too bad, but this year I am looking at around $25,000 for new boxes, extra lids, feeders, frames, and some new pallets. That's just for doubling up from 300 to 600. And by my estimates, I will have JUST enough equipment to make it through the year. It gets expensive real quick. On top of all that, each year I have purchased capital equipment to help with the business of bees and moving them, ranging from a flatbed truck, hive crane mover, extraction equipment, and this year a loader. This is an expensive game.

There are always curve balls. This year was very dry again, and so I had to spend around $5000 on syrup, and another couple grand on pollen supplement to keep the bees bulked up. This isn't chest thumping (because I know folks go through tanker trucks of syrup) I am just trying to relate what I have to spend to keep my bees in tip top shape as a small scale, growing, commercial beekeeper.

And in summation, if you really want to have a full time beekeeping business, get ready to burn a lot of cash up front. Work LONG hours. You better know how to fix stuff. Get yourself out of mud (getting stuck is easy). Be willing to drive all day to help another beek out. Accept that mother nature may decide to throw a ten year drought right when you decide to go all in. Maybe mating is only 50%. Maybe, maybe, maybe. This isn't for the faint of heart, nor for the man or woman without a thorough business plan and possible exit strategy.

But, I couldn't really see myself doing anything else right now. Hope this helps anyone planning on going to 100 or 10,000.


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## BeePrepared

Wow! This ought to be published as a short story of a bunch of people sitting around a dinner table talking about the one who didn’t show up with dessert. You couldn’t make this up if you tried.


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## HarryVanderpool

Ten thousand hives?
If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.


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## johno

HarryVanderpool said:


> Ten thousand hives?
> If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.


Talk is always cheap but if you are going to put your money where your mouth is you had better know what you are bragging about. So how is the story teller getting on with his 10,000 hives.


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## JWPalmer

Johno, I recall that Scooby sold his hives and is pursuing other interests. I should have stopped by his place while I was in Palm Coast last week.


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## LarryBud

I read this thread around 6 months ago, all 200 plus replies. Couldn't stop. it's like watching a train wreck, just can't look away. God Bless Ambition.


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## johno

LarryBud said:


> I read this thread around 6 months ago, all 200 plus replies. Couldn't stop. it's like watching a train wreck, just can't look away. God Bless Ambition.


Hey JW, there you go he must have made so much money so quickly that he got bored with it and moved on.


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## LarryBud

johno said:


> Hey JW, there you go he must have made so much money so quickly that he got bored with it and moved on.


Due to his business expertise, I heard he was going to manage Space X's colonization of the sun.


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## johno

LarryBud said:


> Due to his business expertise, I heard he was going to manage Space X's colonization of the sun.


Yeah but somebody told him that the sun was so hot it would burn them all up, but if you are smart you would colonize the sun at night.


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## LizardKing

Ok, I finally got some bees from a swarm.
Can I say I now have my first hive of 10,000?
Hopefully it won't by by replacing deadouts every year.....


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## AHudd

BeePrepared said:


> Wow! This ought to be published as a short story of a bunch of people sitting around a dinner table talking about the one who didn’t show up with dessert. You couldn’t make this up if you tried.


Well, when you paint a target on your back and visit the shooting range....  

Alex


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