# I had a bright idea.....?



## mischief

I just had an AFB check on my hive which went really well....however there was clear evidence that my fogging of FGMO with wintergreen oil was not achieving the results I wanted, evidenced by deformed wing virus mainly and a few syptoms of paralysis virus.

I just had this thought that as it is now Spring here in New Zealand, that I could try a simulated swarm/brood break to try to counteract this.

I have finally managed to get my hands on some small cell plastic frames and have a 'toilet roll' formed wax.So far three quite heavily waxed frames of these have gone into the hive and are being built out quite nicely. They have been in for about three weeks.

My thought is that if I heavily smoke the hive then do a shake down, taking ALL the existing comb out that have brood on them and replace these with the waxed small cell frames, this might lighten the varroa load and get rid of the viral infections they currently have.

I'm not too sure if I should just freeze the frames that only have alittle bit of brood and mostly fresh nectar, remove the then dead brood and replace those outside of the brood nest or just leave them out altogether.

Back ground is:- I have had this hive since the first of Jan, our summer was an absolute, ahem, witch for the bees, winter was quite mild so my baby hive made it through.
No capped stores to speak of but lots of fresh nectar.
These bees fly in the rain-steady to hard if there isnt any wind with it.
Lots of different things currently in flower from gorse, broom, brassicas, rosemary, fruit trees, ***** just starting.

I really do not want to use commercial treatments, but I also do not want to lose my hive.

Has anyone tried this?
I appreciate any advice on this.


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## Specialkayme

mischief said:


> ....however there was clear evidence that my fogging of FGMO with wintergreen oil was not achieving the results I wanted, evidenced by deformed wing virus mainly and a few syptoms of paralysis virus.


What are your mite levels? Have you done an alcohol wash or a sugar shake to get a % infestation? Or a sticky board test to get a rough estimate?

Without knowing your % infestation, you're shooting blind. You really don't know what's going on. Seeing DWV is a symptom of high mite levels, but high is a relative term. High could mean 8%, or it could mean 30%. One is manageable, the other is the walking dead.



mischief said:


> I just had this thought that as it is now Spring here in New Zealand, that I could try a simulated swarm/brood break to try to counteract this. . . .
> My thought is that if I heavily smoke the hive then do a shake down, taking ALL the existing comb out that have brood on them and replace these with the waxed small cell frames, this might lighten the varroa load and get rid of the viral infections they currently have.


First, I know several that have done brood breaks as a management strategy. It's never worked as well for me as it has for some others, but that might be beside the point. Your brood break won't necessarily _kill_ the mites you have. It'll stop them from reproducing for a time period, so their numbers don't increase. While that break occurs, if you have hygienic bees, they may clean up/bite some of the mites, decreasing some of their numbers. Some of the mites will die of old age, or migrate out of the hive during this time period. So your mite levels will likely decrease, but not drastically. You might see a 5% infestation go down to a 4% or 3%. But breaking the brood _before_ you have an infestation problem is key. After you have one doesn't help. Reducing an infestation rate from 30% to 24% still ensures death.

Additionally, killing all the brood is like curing cancer in the human population by nuking half the world. Yes, the amount of cancer patents decreases in number, and if you do a targeted strike maybe in percentage, but it kinda defeats the purpose, no? 

I'd also suggest you read up on small cell. Several studies have shown their effectiveness as a mite control is more of a myth than a reality. But draw your own conclusions after sufficient research.



mischief said:


> I really do not want to use commercial treatments, but I also do not want to lose my hive.


And that's really the dilemma though, isn't it. I'll tell you, from someone with considerable experience in both areas, it is possible to go short term without the use of treatments. But it is VERY difficult. Most, by a wide margin, fail. It is not something I typically recommend to people starting out.

Treatment strategies fall in a spectrum. On the one end are those who will not treat, ever, for any reason. Next are those who will treat if they have to, but using mechanical and non chemical approaches (drone removal, screened bottom boards, sugar shakes, brood breaks, although I will say several have been proven to be ineffective). Next are those who will treat if they have to, but using "natural" chemical approaches (typically oxalic acid, formic acid, and thymol). Next are those who will treat if they have to, but are willing to use "synthetic" chemical approaches (Apivar, for example). Next are those who treat (period). I'd suggest you think long and hard about where you fall in the spectrum first. Then act accordingly. If you sit in stage one, and you firmly believe that is the right course of actions and your bees may die in the process, carry on. If you aren't ok with that and you're in stage two, but still understand your bees may die in the process, you know where you stand. If you're willing to do what you need to do to keep your bees alive, see where in the spectrum you consider yourself to be at, compare it to your % infestation, and act accordingly.


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## Eikel

I must say Special K, I found your summation very appropriate and succinct; insightful but not overly heavy handed one way or another. 

Mischief, if you chose to explore/evaluate some of the "mite fight" options; the Honey Bee Health Coalition has provided the pros/con, limits, impacts and effectiveness of some of the approaches. Access the website, scroll down a little and download the guide, the control method information starts on page 10. https://honeybeehealthcoalition.org/


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## FlowerPlanter

I would stop using essential oils immediately, they not work on mites and they put additional stress on your bees/queens/brood. Winter green is also associated with queenlessness. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?317966-Fighting-mites-with-syrup

There's a few treatment options on the last link on that thread.


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## beepro

I believe that EO and fogging do not work on the mites. So far OAV is effective but it is
a form of chemical. So when you run out of options then consider taking the cap broods out of
the hives for a brood break. See what I have experimented on so far for the last 3 seasons here
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?332871-Constant-mite-removal-management
Will update it when more infos available later on.


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## mischief

Thank you for your replies.
I'm working my way through everything you've said and the links.

I think I do have bees showing hygienic behaviour,ie they have been taking out drone brood-found outside the hive with missing eyes and tops of the head. initially, I thought the ants had got to them before me, but after reading Dee Lusby;s work, the bees could have been responsible for that.
2nd, seen bees flying out with others that on inspection have deformed wings.
3rd, In the AFB inspection, I got shown capped brood that had been chewed and was told the bees had been opening them up.
4th, Have observed bees grooming others through the window

I do have a screened bottom with slide out trays beneath them but had been told that the mite drops on these was not an accurate measure as to mite loads so I have been just observing patterns with these. 
While there is much more mites now than there were in winter, Iexpected this. The levels have been about the same, but I havent actually counted them.

My thought was that I do have alot of bees flying right now and they are bringing in pollen and nectar, if I removed the brood- that being where the mites will most likely be at this time of year, freeze them, remove them and then return the frames; bees live for 6 weeks? and it takes 21 days to get the next lot of bees hatched out?

Two of the 'in the process of hatching bees' had deformed wings and were taken out of the hive. I did notice that these did not have mites on them .
Same with the baby drones that had been dumped out side-hatched out ones not pupa.

Still thinking about this and doing my studies.
I'm finding your links really interesting.
Meaning that I am alittle confused.
I'm working my way through the links you have provided at the moment


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## beepro

I hope you are not as confused as others here. Actually, it is a very simple process. You just removed the 
cap broods to one queen right hive without the attaching bees. The attaching bees got brushed off into the
same hive. 

Now confined the laying queen to a pollen/nectar frame and some drawn frames in the top box. Underneath this box is a QE (queen excluder) so that other bees can visit her. After the cap broods emerged there will be many bees with mites on them. Now take one about to cap broods into this mite bomb hive. This way majority of the mites will go inside this cap brood frame later on. So you are concentrating all the mites into one frame now that you can safely removed into a homemade mini fridge incubator. The fridge incubator also has a post here.

If you have the cap drone brood frames then removing them in the first round of the Spring broods will help removed many of these mites out. I also removed the early Autumn and early Spring cap drone broods into the fridge incubator as well. And do the early Spring and late Autumn mites removal if there is a heavy infestation. 

Try to do the cap broods removal several month in the Autumn time so that repeating this removal will interrupt the mites breeding too. I started this process again at the end of June this season. Now in Oct. the hives are mostly free of the mites. The next round of the cap broods that emerge will be very clean going into winter. This way the early Spring time build up will not be affected. If the mites cannot be clean up during the early Autumn before the new batch of the big fat winter bees are made then there will be a hive crashed situation--repeated again like back in early 2014. 

Three seasons of no treatment and still have bees here. That is why I'm posting my finding here for all to experiment on if they want to. Any confusion you have, don't be afraid to ask questions. It is better than keeping them inside and releasing it on my posts at the last minute like some do.


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## mischief

I have been every so slightly overwhelmed by what you have been doing- its way above my level of skill. Fascinating though.
The bees have been removing drone pupa and are now dragging out and dropping the hatched out ones. I was a little late in learning about this. There was a few small patches of capped drone brood that I could still take out, decap and check for mites before freezing-I only have one hive and so cant do what you are doing at the moment.


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## beepro

" freeze them, remove them and then return the frames; bees live for 6 weeks? and it takes 21 days to get the next lot of bees hatched out?

Two of the 'in the process of hatching bees' had deformed wings and were taken out of the hive. I did notice that these did not have mites on them ."

I do not freeze the cap brood frames. I put them inside my homemade mini fridge incubator to catch the mites after the bees emerged. Then return the bees back into the hives if they are still healthy. Feeding a high protein patty subs diet to your Spring and Autumn bees will allow them to withstand the mites better.

Yes, on average the bees can live up to 6 weeks and 21 days will be the next cycle of the new bees emerging. But the queen will not stop laying in the mean time if you have a double deep boxes for the brood nest. If you put her into the bottom box with one frame of empty drawn comb to lay, then she will make the next cap broods for you to remove since all the remaining free running mites from the hive will go into this cap broods too. This will further clean up the hive.

The deformed bees that they took out of the hive rarely have mites on them. Because the mites will quickly find a new bee host to stay on, maybe another healthy emerged young bee. The mites that are still inside the empty cell after the new bees have emerged will go on to find their new bee hosts as well.

That is why you will rarely see the mites on the deformed bees that got carried out of the hive. Mites inside the incubator on 3 cap brood frames there will be up to 160 mites in the cap broods per hatch cycle. Very interesting when you can observe the mites and bees interaction up close.


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## beepro

If you only have one hive now then make a split with a mated queen if you can find one.
If not then allow the hive to make a new queen. 

Take the old queen and 2 frames of cap broods to put inside another nuc hive box. The original hive
will make a new queen of their own when there are eggs/open young larvae. Give the new nuc hive some
patty subs too. Make the split during the mid-Spring time and also in very late summer time. If you don't want
the honey the first year then make splits after the flow and all summer long too.


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## mischief

Ok, I did actually see the Queen when we did the check. I wasnt looking for eggs though. 
Should get the nuc box first, check for eggs and if they are there.
So with the two frames of capped brood, what do you reccommend in the way of stores.....I see a problem with this part as there wasnt much capped at all but lots of fresh nectar and pollen.
I thought a nuc was supposed to have at least two frames of capped honey.
I havent been too worried about this because they have been building up and are flying everyday. I figured that they would know more about what they need than I do.

With regards to the two just hatched out bees. We watched them hatch and when I saw their wings, I picked them up, looked them over and disposed of them in the garden.
They didnt have any mites on them. Thats what confuses me.
With one cell, we helped clear the cap so it could get out. I didnt think mites were that fast in getting out of the cell and that they stayed On the emerging bee.


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## beepro

If they are bringing in pollen and nectar now then you don't have to worry about feeding them. The
foragers will take care of the food source since they are at the original location. If there is no food available from
the outside then you have to feed them. Adding the patty subs will help with growing bigger QCs.

The split hive with the original queen will not have many foragers that is why you have to give them patty subs. Usually I will give them the sugar bricks too. Lauri has a formula to make these sugar bricks here. They will use the open nectar much more efficient than the cap honey. Around the cap brood frames there is a nectar and pollen band surrounding these cap broods. This they can use in the mean time until new foragers are issued in a few days.

The 2 bees that just emerged from the cells have what we call DWVs (deformed wing virus) that are brought up from the
mites infection already exist in the hive. Without the mites you will not see the DWV that noticeably. When the crawler bees exist that might be an indication of a high mite count inside. Usually the 2 go hand in hand. So even though you don't see the mites with the newly emerged bees that doesn't mean they are not inside the next cap brood cell. For the next round of
healthy bees you must take the mites out. Since the queen continue to lay along with the 2 cap brood frames, there will be mites coming out later on. Then the mites will infect the next cycle of the cap broods in a never ending mites and bees cycle. The only way to end this cycle is to take out the mites from the cap broods. I've done a very good job that only .1% of the mites are in there now.


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## mischief

Thats why I thought it might be a good idea to simply shake the bees off all the capped brood and freeze, giving them a break, decapping and removing them then putting them frame back in ...or adding another couple of small cell frames that I have just waxed.

I decided before I got the hive, that I would Not feed any more than I obsolutely had to, nor would I feed substitute pollen. There was heaps in there so its not needed.
The hive was opened on friday and I dont want to do anything for another couple of weeks at least other than fogging.
I dont have another hive nor nuc so this isnt an option for right now, perhaps in the not too distant future.
They seem to be holding their own and are still removing DWV bees, still flying in the rain so for now I am just going to observe mfor the next week and a bit.
They are working on the small cell frames I put in, so by the time I get to pull the capped brood, they should have somewhere else for the Queen to lay in.


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## RayMarler

The only thing natural inside a bee hive is what the bees put there. Fogging with FGMO and wintergreen oil is not natural inside a beehive. If you are going to treat, then use something that has a proven repeatable record. OAV or Apivar come to mind in this respect, having fairly low negative impact on the bees and killing mites pretty well.

For another option, why not make up a false swarm, or somewhat of a false swarm, that will give you a second hive as a backup if all goes well? I am thinking of doing something like this method...

Take you a spare box of waxed foundation frames with top board and bottom board to your hive. Remove three frames from the center of it, and set them aside. 

Go into your hive, and remove the frame with the queen on it, a frame of sealed emerging brood, and a drawn frame that is mostly empty with a little nectar stores in it, and put these three into the center of the box you brought out. Set that box up in place of your hive, and move your hive to a different stand somewhere else in your yard, putting the three waxed foundation frames to the outsides of the top box.

The box left in place with queen will get all the foragers. She also has a frame of mostly empty cells to continue laying in, that way she does not skip a beat in laying. She also has a frame of emerging brood to give her some youngest nurse bees. She'll keep laying. There is no brood to feed at the moment so all those foragers will be bringing in nectar and drawing out the rest of the frames in the box for the queen to have laying room.

The big now queenless hive you moved away will make queen cells. They will requeen themselves. During that process, all existing brood will emerge. In 21-28 days after making this split, you'll have a new laying queen and no sealed brood, all the mites will be on the adult bees. This is the time to do a treatment. If you don't want to do a treatment, then leave it as is and see how well the bees themselves can live with all those mites.

You'll get a box of mostly low mite bees with the old queen and they'll draw wax well for you. The other hive may or may not do well without any treatments, but if you treat once at the proper time, you'll do a major kill on the mites and end up with two hives with good prospects of living and thriving through the season.


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## Oldtimer

mischief said:


> My thought is that if I heavily smoke the hive then do a shake down, taking ALL the existing comb out that have brood on them and replace these with the waxed small cell frames, this might lighten the varroa load and get rid of the viral infections they currently have.


The blunt answer is that this is not going to work, on your bees. If you do not use a commercial treatment such as Apivar the hive is most likely going to die.

However act in your conscience, and feel free to experiment. If you don't treat and the hive dwindles away and eventually dies, follow that so you can recognise the symptoms. Do not waste the experience, take it as lesson learned so you can do better next time around.


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## mischief

Heavy handed, dont you think?

There are quite a few people 'out there' who have treatment free bees. Michael Bush, Dee Lusby, Barbara on Biobees,beepro.....etc...
It has been said there Are and will be loses along the way. Personally, I hope not, but accept that this may in fact be the case.
I have managed to get my bees through a really tough NZ summer and through winter when most would have thought they would not make it due to their small size.
Yet there they are.

Bottom line is, Human(un)kind, is the reason bees are not flourishing.

If commercial treatments were completely effective there would be NO Varroa mite problem right NOW....but there is, after all these years.
If you have to use treatments to keep them going,good luck to you.Seriously.

As it stands, even people who treat religiously are suffering from failed hives or have "hammered" hives.

I know we have done well so far.(we being me and my bees) and I Will do my ****est to make sure they do thrive.


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## beepro

The fogging and small cells do not keep the mites in check.
Do more research in this area before wasting more of your time and
doing something that do not work for this hive. I've done the SC experiment before over here. It is the
same as using the Large cell.

If you want to expand then make a nuc hive. There are plans here that
you can follow to make a simple one. When one hive is in trouble then the other growing hive can come
to the rescue with more resources available. The saying 2 hives are better than one!

If you keep on removing the mites then at 70-80% the bees can still keep on surviving. I've experimented with the
mite removal method for several seasons now. It is working when you find a method to get rid of the mites as that is the
only way going tf. You can also use sugar shake on every new bees emergence cycle each month too. 

The reason I don't freeze the cap brood frames is that I don't want to kill off too many bees. This is bad karma for me! I mean how many you have to kill before keeping the mites on check. If there are low mite count, which you did not do yet for mite monitoring, then freezing the other cap brood frames will be wasted broods. Because after the low mite count infecting the first or 2nd cap brood frames, the other 4 cap broods will be clean. These will be your healthy bees to push the next round of the young nurse bees and foragers to maintain the hive. No need to kill off the clean cap broods too. 

Remember that you cannot get rid of the mites completely as foragers will bring in some more when they come back from the flowers. Other bees will put the mites there and so are the drones when they emerged. You can only do so much and allowed your bees to do the other half. We all know that we cannot keep removing the mites forever. So start sourcing the mite resistant bees so that your local area will support these bees in the future against these mites. I'm able to do it because of the proper timing from the local bee environment here as well as sourcing the mite resistant bees for 3 seasons now. So attack the mites from different angles!


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## Specialkayme

mischief said:


> Heavy handed, dont you think?
> 
> . . .
> 
> Bottom line is, Human(un)kind, is the reason bees are not flourishing.


I don't think OldTimer's statements were heavy handed at all. I think they were spot on and 100% accurate. 

Your actions (FGMO fogging, small cell, desire to freeze all the brood) express a lack of understanding. Or words (deploring the state of the beekeeping industry) express ideology. Neither alone will make you a good beekeeper. Reading, studying, asking questions, learning from other's experience, experimenting, and trying will.

It seems to me that several people have told you the idea you had is not a good one. You received your answer. And yet you continue to push the agenda. Which either means you aren't interested in hearing the answers (so why post the question) or you were hoping for validation. 

Heed the warnings you're given and there's an increased chance your hives will be alive (of course no guarantee, and you have to consider whether the state they're in at that point is worth it to you). Ignore them and there's an increased chance your hives will die (not a guarantee, I can't guarantee anything, but I can tell you I've watched hundreds in your situation elect not to listen, and they don't post here anymore). The choice ultimately is yours, but I think questioning the advice you're given may not be the best route.

On a side note, you mentioned several people that have kept bees treatment free. It is possible, but it is very hard work and the odds are against you. For every successful treatment free beekeeper you name, I can name a thousand that have failed. If you wish to go down that direction, I encourage you to do so, provided you understand the odds. Several of your successful treatment free beekeepers have had hundreds of colonies to cycle through before they found their success, not the one hive you have. Keep that in mind.


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## mischief

Thank you


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## msl

Ray gives good advice

I do the same, except I leave the queen and a frame/bar or 2 with food and open brood (no mites in it) to anchor them . Lori called them "fly away splits" 
The new box with the old queen gets fresh start with very little mites in it, the forgers revert to nurce bee duty, I was worried about low Vitellogenin in the forgers causing issues with there ability to nurse, but it didn't seem to be a problem. The lack of space for the queen to lay triggered post swarm like behavior and the splits became comb drawing machines and showed explosive growth.

In my model the old hives are put next to each outher in the new place to draws cells and then broken up in to nucs. leaving a weak nuc with a cell and a frame/bar or 2 to collect the foragers. The hive(s) gets a brood break witch helps with mites, but also gives you a bloodless period to hammer the mites with single oav/oad treatment using a minumail amount of chemicals to the max effect


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## gww

I also did what msl describes and ray helped me with really good advice while I was doing it. I did not have a queen and so had to use a queen cell for the old bee part of the hive in the old place (the hive had already swarmed.)

I also don't treat yet but I also do not think oldtimers advice was heavy handed. I definatly don't want to lose my hives either but think it is good advice to watch closely and see what it looks like if it does happen. I also know that not wanting it to happen does not mean it won't and so learning from it could be the best I could do including a deep dive autopsy after the fact.

I have found oldtimer (even if he might not have faith in what I am doing) to be a great helpful resorce on bee keeping and for you he is also as close to local and knowing your inviroment compared to all of us.

I really liked the old bee split and they gathered a lot of honey plus drew a lot of comb with no feed compared to the few other splits I made.

I don't have a lot of experiance compared to the other posters but did do the mentioned split and it did work out well and I have never treated yet and so I will tell you on the mites how it worked next spring. Mite was on my mind in picking this split over other options.
Good luck.
gww


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## mischief

Thank you for that.
I really do need to get/make another hive or at least a nuc box so I have more options.


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## beepro

Yes, definitely make more nucs 2-3 of them will be fine to expand on especially when there is
a flow going on now. If you don't want the nucs and only like to keep one hive then you can 
sell them too. Make a nuc split when the weather is consistently warm enough so that they will not
have a chilled brood and that the virgin can go to her mating flights. This will be your next skill level to
acquire as a new beekeeper after you get a hand on the mite management.


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## Baja

Deformed winged virus is present in a large percentage of hives but not necessarily a major problem. If you are trying to achieve a natural state (reduce your cell size) I would suggest going foundationless. Over time the cell size will reduce. You say that mite boards don't provide an accurate mite count but I respectfully disagree. For 20 years folks in north america have been using mite boards and though not precise will give you an approximate mite count. We do a 24 hr count with a vaseline coating and 30 suggests you have an issue. A shook swarm is a viable treatment for only a major mite infestation (http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/shaking.pdf). It sounds like you want to be as natural a beekeeper as possible so my suggestion is to determine first what is a major issue before doing any treating. Good luck.


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## 1102009

Baja said:


> Deformed winged virus is present in a large percentage of hives but not necessarily a major problem. [/QUOTE
> 
> It´s the major problem if there is an outbreak. See a handful of defect bees and know you hive is doomed and the immune system crashed.
> Beware and observe if there is one or two bees...if there is increase.
> 
> Listen to OT and Ray. They are not tf but you might learn much about beekeeping because of their experience. Trust them. Decide then you path.


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## RayMarler

msl said:


> Ray gives good advice
> 
> I do the same, except I leave the queen and a frame/bar or 2 with food and open brood (no mites in it) to anchor them . Lori called them "fly away splits"
> The new box with the old queen gets fresh start with very little mites in it, the forgers revert to nurce bee duty, I was worried about low Vitellogenin in the forgers causing issues with there ability to nurse, but it didn't seem to be a problem. The lack of space for the queen to lay triggered post swarm like behavior and the splits became comb drawing machines and showed explosive growth.
> 
> In my model the old hives are put next to each outher in the new place to draws cells and then broken up in to nucs. leaving a weak nuc with a cell and a frame/bar or 2 to collect the foragers. The hive(s) gets a brood break witch helps with mites, but also gives you a bloodless period to hammer the mites with single oav/oad treatment using a minumail amount of chemicals to the max effect


Yes, as msl says, you can take this to the next step. Make splits off the moved hive ten days after moving it away to it's new stand. 4 splits can easily be made when this system is done with a strong two box hive to start out with. Plus you get the old queen in a full box or more drawing wax and building back up again. The queenless hive moved to a new stand loses the older forage bees and ends up full of nurse bees plus all the new bees emerging, and they have all the stores, so they draw out very nice queen cells for the splits. 

This is a good way to get wax drawn and get increase of hives. I've done it many times, msl has done it, Lauri has done it, and other beeks have done it the same or similar way for a hundred years or more that I know of.


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## mischief

Baja said:


> Deformed winged virus is present in a large percentage of hives but not necessarily a major problem. If you are trying to achieve a natural state (reduce your cell size) I would suggest going foundationless. Over time the cell size will reduce. You say that mite boards don't provide an accurate mite count but I respectfully disagree. For 20 years folks in north america have been using mite boards and though not precise will give you an approximate mite count. We do a 24 hr count with a vaseline coating and 30 suggests you have an issue. A shook swarm is a viable treatment for only a major mite infestation (http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/shaking.pdf). It sounds like you want to be as natural a beekeeper as possible so my suggestion is to determine first what is a major issue before doing any treating. Good luck.


Hi Baja,
I did put in frames with starter strips in but our summer was terrible and they did not build up as I thought they would. The intention was for them to build their own comb from these and then this year start them on the small cell frames.
My grapefruit sized cluster survived our unusually mild winter and finished buildng out two frames that had the starter strips in. I decided to go ahead and put in the small cell frames which they are currently working on- I had to import these and wax them myself using their own wax.
I was TOLD that the counting the mites on the sticky board was a waste of time so I started using these to help determine where they were working and what they were doing without having to always open the hive up. 
I have already started to continue with counting mites on these but do so every other day and dividing by two. This week it is up to 40 per day so I am getting MAQs to put in.
During the AFB inspection, the inspector pointed out ot me two cells in particular and said that the bees had been in the process of uncapping these for some reason. This combined with finding drone pupa on the ground minus bits of their heads and seeing them dropping live bees with DWV, lead me to understand that they were working to deal with this problem. When the mite count reached 40 per day, I decided to get the strips to put in and am waiting for these to arrive.
I had to wait for my AFB inspection before doing any 'shook swarm' as this could have been taken for hiding an AFB problem. Weather issues and work commitments have caused delays.

There is plenty of feed available and they are obviously taking advantage of this per the amounts currently in the hive.
I dont want to open the hive up too much as I feel this causes them to get stressed out and so am hoping the strip arrive on monday so I can remove the brood, put in the small cell frames ANd add the MAQs at the same time.

I want to be as hands off as I possibly can. Up until a couple of days ago, they appeared to be dealing with the mite situation, now they look like they need a bit more of a hand.
This has little to do with being a newbee and more to do with the fact that bees know more about being bees than I or anyone else does.
I do kmow that A local beek who treats discribed some of his hives as being hammered by mites and stupidly told someone that I was quietly pleased about this....I'm not.
I am quietly relieved that although I have not treated so far, they are still doing reasonably well according to numbers and activities.

I watch the numbers at the entrance- those doing their orientation flights and those going out foraging as well as those doing the haul and drop of unwanteds.
As much as I do not want to put chemicals in the hive, this is going to have to happen in order to keep them going.

I hear of people putting drone frames in specifically to remove these and had thought of doing this, but didnt, perhaps I should have.

I am not interested in harvesting larges amounts of honey or having ever increasing numbers of hives. I dont even want big booming hives.
I want a healthy hive.
If I was a person who HAD to take medicine in order to stay alive, you would not consider me to be healthy. I find in hard to understand how people can treat their hives and feel that all is well with the world- if they HAVE to be treated in order for them to survive.... they are not healthy.

To answer with regards to doing my research and learning more- I spent the last three years doing just that Before I got my hive, you can learn only so much from books or lurking, the best is done with the bees themselves.
Mistakes are going to happen, thats a given, but not if I can help it,


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## Oldtimer

Agree Mischief, real bees will teach you more than books, and looks like you are learning. Trouble with books or internet, anyone can write anything, so let the bees and the mites teach you in person. The other thing with book learning, is that even if what is written is correct, for that author, it may be written in a different location, from experience with different bees, and lead a reader down the wrong track entirely.

One thing though, MAQS, and removing the brood, is the wrong thing for a hive at your stage. it might work but has a very high chance of failure. In hives with high virus levels MAQS can be the final nail in the coffin it is very harsh on bees, Apivar is much more gentle. Also, removing the brood is the last thing the bees need right now since you are treating. There is no need to remove the brood if you are treating it will be a negative.

Treating but doing it wrong and losing the bees regardless, is when people say "I treated but the bees died anyway", thus confirming the myth that treating doesn't help.

All the same, please realize I am not telling you what to do but offering my 2 cents. I have no problem if you take it, or leave it, that is for you. So no need to get offended.

Just one thing though, in your last post you were critical of people who treat, yet you are planning to treat. An oxymoron, surely? Realize that nobody wants to treat.


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## Gypsi

I would do Oxalic Acid Vapor. As a matter of fact that is what I will do here this evening. when all my workers are home so I get as many mites as possible. 

I've done powdered sugar dusting, to create a brood break and cause the bees to clean off the mites and drop them on the oiled sticky under my screened bottom board. But the mites got so bad that rather than lose another really large hive, I just do OAV 3 times, preferably about now, about a week apart. Doesn't cost that much, but you do need to wear a breathing protector during treatment. Think gas mask. Healthy bees are worth it.


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## Specialkayme

mischief said:


> I am not interested in harvesting larges amounts of honey or having ever increasing numbers of hives. I dont even want big booming hives.
> I want a healthy hive.
> If I was a person who HAD to take medicine in order to stay alive, you would not consider me to be healthy. I find in hard to understand how people can treat their hives and feel that all is well with the world- if they HAVE to be treated in order for them to survive.... they are not healthy.
> 
> To answer with regards to doing my research and learning more- I spent the last three years doing just that Before I got my hive, you can learn only so much from books or lurking, the best is done with the bees themselves.
> Mistakes are going to happen, thats a given, but not if I can help it,


Sounds like you're on the right track.



Gypsi said:


> I would do Oxalic Acid Vapor.


I'd second that.


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## mischief

@Oldtimer,
Hi, no I'm not critical of those that treat.
I am critical of what I see as the social conditioning that makes/allows us all to believe that being constantly medicated is keeping healthy.
For myself, I keep this as a last option.

Ok. I will go with the Apivar and adding the small cell frames, not doing the brood break.

@Gypsi and Special, 
I am wary of using OA, that fact that I would have to rug up to apply it for my safety, makes me wonder why I would subject anything else to it.
I have heard that it is effective, but prefer to try other things first.


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## Specialkayme

mischief said:


> I am wary of using OA, that fact that I would have to rug up to apply it for my safety, makes me wonder why I would subject anything else to it.


I'm not familiar with the term "rug up." I'm assuming you're referring to a respirator?

Keep in mind OA can be applied in vapor form or liquid form. Vapor form requires you to use a respirator. Liquid doesn't. But that may be beside the point.

You need to use a respirator when you treat with formic acid. I find it interesting that you drew the line where you were comfortable with formic, but not with oxalic. I know few people that are ok with one but not the other. The few that are, feel more comfortable with OA (treatment window is shorter, less side effects) than formic.

But again, draw your own conclusions after adequate research.


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## JWPalmer

Has anyone ever made the comparison that varroa on a bee is like fleas on a dog? Think about it. We treat our dogs, not because they are sick, but because the fleas make them miserable and could get them sick. Do we not treat our pets in the hopes that one day a flea free dog strain will develop? Of course not. Why then do we expect it of our bees. The amazing thing is, once we get rid of the varroa, the bees are remakably able, for the most part, to rid themselves of the diseases caused by the mites. So don't treat an infested hive. Don't use flea treatment on Fido (Phydeaux for those in Louisiana). And while we are at it, don't bother to immunize your children either. Wouldn't want to keep propagating sickly children, would we?


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## DPBsbees

JWPalmer said:


> Has anyone ever made the comparison that varroa on a bee is like fleas on a dog? Think about it. We treat our dogs, not because they are sick, but because the fleas make them miserable and could get them sick. Do we not treat our pets in the hopes that one day a flea free dog strain will develop? Of course not. Why then do we expect it of our bees. The amazing thing is, once we get rid of the varroa, the bees are remakably able, for the most part, to rid themselves of the diseases caused by the mites. So don't treat an infested hive. Don't use flea treatment on Fido (Phydeaux for those in Louisiana). And while we are at it, don't bother to immunize your children either. Wouldn't want to keep propagating sickly children, would we?


I use the comparison of a mite to a tick on a person. The tick taking anything from us is negligible but does anyone want lyme disease?


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## gww

jw


> Has anyone ever made the comparison that varroa on a bee is like fleas on a dog? Think about it. We treat our dogs, not because they are sick, but because the fleas make them miserable and could get them sick. Do we not treat our pets in the hopes that one day a flea free dog strain will develop? Of course not. Why then do we expect it of our bees. The amazing thing is, once we get rid of the varroa, the bees are remakably able, for the most part, to rid themselves of the diseases caused by the mites. So don't treat an infested hive. Don't use flea treatment on Fido (Phydeaux for those in Louisiana). And while we are at it, don't bother to immunize your children either. Wouldn't want to keep propagating sickly children, would we?


I guess that is one way to look at it. I didn't work too hard at it but your post brings to question of things like, do we treat wild sheep for parasites?
https://askabiologist.asu.edu/plosable/parasites-wild-world

We have close proximity to our dogs and many are in the house. I don't remember treating my outside dog very many times on the farm we grew up on but even leaving that out, I wonder if the question should more be, does a wild sheep do better untreated and if so which wild sheep does so?

The ones that have built tolerance and still gain more weight allowing for more ofspring or the ones that are more succeptable to the parisite.

It is easy to say bees are more like dogs under our care but the case could be easily made that they are more like wild sheep.
Just food for thought.
Cheers
gww
Ps Another food for thought.
https://www.consumerhealthdigest.com/eyelash-care/eyelash-mites.html
It is even indicated these might be good in that they clean up oils and such.


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## Oldtimer

mischief said:


> Ok. I will go with the Apivar and adding the small cell frames, not doing the brood break.


Awesome to hear Mischief, your bees will now have a very good shot at life.

About method though. Don't put the small cell combs in just yet, leave the hive how it is and put the apivar in among the brood to get the hive healthy first. The apivar strips should not be at the edge of the brood area, but in among the brood. If the hive is still alive 3 weeks after you place the strips, it will survive. But leave the strips in for 8 weeks. About 4 weeks after you put the apivar strips in, you can start putting your small cell frames in.
The reason for this is that to get a good mite kill, the brood nest should be kept compact during the treatment period, and adding the small cell frames too soon will interfere with this.

Good luck, please report back how it goes .


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## gww

Mischief
I always find it a nice thing when I finaly quit having to think and have made a decission. 

Quote from oldtimer.


> Good luck, please report back how it goes


I also would enjoy knowing how it goes for you in a month or two from now.
Cheers
gww


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## Gypsi

I hope to hear that your bees did well. Please do report back in Mischief. there is such great advice in this thread I can't think of a thing to add.


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## 1102009

JWPalmer said:


> Has anyone ever made the comparison that varroa on a bee is like fleas on a dog? Think about it. We treat our dogs, not because they are sick, but because the fleas make them miserable and could get them sick. Do we not treat our pets in the hopes that one day a flea free dog strain will develop? Of course not. Why then do we expect it of our bees. The amazing thing is, once we get rid of the varroa, the bees are remakably able, for the most part, to rid themselves of the diseases caused by the mites. So don't treat an infested hive. Don't use flea treatment on Fido (Phydeaux for those in Louisiana). And while we are at it, don't bother to immunize your children either. Wouldn't want to keep propagating sickly children, would we?


That comparison is not working for me. 
You see with dogs breeding what happens if inbred or how sick they are from breeding the wrong traits. Do you want to go on breeding dogs which cannot breathe?

My dogs are not actively fighting fleas or ticks ( I do and one of my dogs does it if he can reach the tick with his teeth), the bees fight the mites if they recognize the danger. This fighting, no matter how it´s done, by attacking, propolising or through pheromones should be propagated.
I´m not saying to end treatments. I´m only saying to breed from those which fight or dog concerned, from those which can walk without pain and breathe like normal animals.

This is about selection.


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## mischief

Oldtimer said:


> Awesome to hear Mischief, your bees will now have a very good shot at life.
> 
> About method though. Don't put the small cell combs in just yet, leave the hive how it is and put the apivar in among the brood to get the hive healthy first. The apivar strips should not be at the edge of the brood area, but in among the brood. If the hive is still alive 3 weeks after you place the strips, it will survive. But leave the strips in for 8 weeks. About 4 weeks after you put the apivar strips in, you can start putting your small cell frames in.
> The reason for this is that to get a good mite kill, the brood nest should be kept compact during the treatment period, and adding the small cell frames too soon will interfere with this.
> 
> Good luck, please report back how it goes .


I HAVE to add frames.
While they are working on the ones I already put in, I messed up by not putting the follower board up close the day after the AFB inspection and they are building comb off the hive mat. 
Stoopid mistake. I got busy and forgot to go back to move it up against the last frame. i couldnt do it at the time because the bees were all over the place and when they get stuck behind the follower board, they dont always know how to get back,or out the small entrance I open up for them. The foragers know how but the nurse bees dont.

I have waxed small cell, frames with starter strips and empties.
I did want to add frames at the brood nest end, but they are working the other end, so I think I should be putting at least starter strip ones on the 'honey' side.

I have had to tie comb into frames before, so I will do this again with what they have already built. I will put a small cell right up against this just in case they go off on a tangent.

I assume the MAQs will be ok in the freeer in an airtight container til its appropriate to use them?


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## Oldtimer

Yes the MAQS have a use by date written on them.

If you got to put the frames in then you got to do it! The bees won't do a good job of building the cells the right size if they are in the honey area though, may have to put one or two frames central brood nest where chances are best to get them built small. But since you have plastic foundation no worries if they build it wrong you can scrape that area and have them do it again.

Be interesting to let us know what the mite drop is when you put the treatment in.


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## mischief

SiWolKe said:


> That comparison is not working for me.
> You see with dogs breeding what happens if inbred or how sick they are from breeding the wrong traits. Do you want to go on breeding dogs which cannot breathe?
> 
> My dogs are not actively fighting fleas or ticks ( I do and one of my dogs does it if he can reach the tick with his teeth), the bees fight the mites if they recognize the danger. This fighting, no matter how it´s done, by attacking, propolising or through pheromones should be propagated.
> I´m not saying to end treatments. I´m only saying to breed from those which fight or dog concerned, from those which can walk without pain and breathe like normal animals.
> 
> This is about selection.


I like this attitude.

I looked at what the problems were that bees have had to work with apart from mites...loss of habitat, over stocking, genetic poverty through drone distruction and inbreeding/artificial breeding, stress from constant monitoring, poor housing, tap water that contains chemicals......etc
I have been trying to lessen the impact of some of these by making sure there is a variety of forage in sufficient quantites, rainwater when I felt I had to feed sugar syrup, insulating the top of the inner cover when I noticed how warm it was above them in winter.
I know I talked about brood breaks, but the intention was not to hinder their drone production.
I have also made the decision that if the hive goes worker layer, I will not interfere as this would be a natural process, nor will I specifically stop swarming should it happen as this too is a natural reproductive process.
I will be doing whatever I can to encourage supercedure though.

Funnily enough, I liken the situation to poor people who live in poverty struck places. They also suffer from ill health, more so than most of the rest of us and I feel it is from the same causes.Poor housing, inadequate food and water and undue stress.


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## mischief

gww said:


> jw
> 
> 
> I guess that is one way to look at it. I didn't work too hard at it but your post brings to question of things like, do we treat wild sheep for parasites?
> https://askabiologist.asu.edu/plosable/parasites-wild-world
> 
> We have close proximity to our dogs and many are in the house. I don't remember treating my outside dog very many times on the farm we grew up on but even leaving that out, I wonder if the question should more be, does a wild sheep do better untreated and if so which wild sheep does so?
> 
> The ones that have built tolerance and still gain more weight allowing for more ofspring or the ones that are more succeptable to the parisite.
> 
> It is easy to say bees are more like dogs under our care but the case could be easily made that they are more like wild sheep.
> Just food for thought.
> Cheers
> gww
> Ps Another food for thought.
> https://www.consumerhealthdigest.com/eyelash-care/eyelash-mites.html
> It is even indicated these might be good in that they clean up oils and such.


Agree totally with this.... can we have a "like" button, it would be faster?


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## beepro

If the hive is inside a natural growing tree then swarming and supersedure is norma and natural. But you are 
actively or should be actively monitoring and preventing any swarming when the signs are there. Because
you are using a man made hive box to keep them. This make a world of difference in that it is not natural
anymore for the bees and you. A responsible beekeeper should feed them when they are starving, keep the
mites population low to restock with resistant stocks later on, and try to stop the swarm when possible. This is my
take when we put the bees inside a man made hive box. Is this still a natural process for the bees?


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## mischief

Oldtimer said:


> Yes the MAQS have a use by date written on them.
> 
> If you got to put the frames in then you got to do it! The bees won't do a good job of building the cells the right size if they are in the honey area though, may have to put one or two frames central brood nest where chances are best to get them built small. But since you have plastic foundation no worries if they build it wrong you can scrape that area and have them do it again.
> 
> Be interesting to let us know what the mite drop is when you put the treatment in.


I will only put the small cell frames in if I have to tie comb into a frame to make sure it stays straight, I had to 'lean' on one comb that went a bit off track.

I will make sure the sticky board is cleaned off and re-oiled, so we can see the difference. I use peanut oil.


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## mischief

beepro said:


> If the hive is inside a natural growing tree then swarming and supersedure is norma and natural. But you are
> actively or should be actively monitoring and preventing any swarming when the signs are there. Because
> you are using a man made hive box to keep them. This make a world of difference in that it is not natural
> anymore for the bees and you. A responsible beekeeper should feed them when they are starving, keep the
> mites population low to restock with resistant stocks later on, and try to stop the swarm when possible. This is my
> take when we put the bees inside a man made hive box. Is this still a natural process for the bees?


Sorry, I disagree with you on this one, bees are not domesticated livestock and I feel they should not be treated as if they are.
Yes, they are in a box that we put them in, but they also put themselves in as strange places.
I think these that I have, may actively be dealing with mites but not too sure what resistent bees are other than small cell, well fed bees, who are allowed to do what bees feel they need to do.

I do not understand the problem in regards to swarming, that is what bees do when either the environment is Not to their liking or is too small.
This is a natural process they use to ensure their species survivial.

I did feed when I saw that they were in need AND before they were starving, but made sure the ph was at the same level as honey is-I checked it before it went in.


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## Specialkayme

mischief said:


> I think these that I have, may actively be dealing with mites


Wondering what led you to that conclusion, despite the high mite counts?

Not being critical, just legitimately wondering.


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## JWPalmer

I think everyone wants to believe that their bees are special. I know I sure did. When i caught a feral swarm they showed what I believed to be hygienic behavior. Now I am not so sure. 

Sybille, I did not mean my statements to be an attack on tf beekeepers. But if one does become infested, do you let your bees die rather than treat? I straddle the fence on that issue. I would rather not treat but will if I have to. I do not treat my dogs every month for fleas either. But when the fleas are making them miserable, I will. (About twice a year) I am definantly not advocating breeding any animal that has inferior genetics which is why I think anyone willing to spend thousands of dollars each year on pet medications ist verrückt.


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## Gypsi

I thought I could get away with VSH bees and dusting with powdered sugar and you can, for a year.


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## gww

jw


> But if one does become infested, do you let your bees die rather than treat?


I can't speak for SiWolke but for me, I have eight hives and am not treating. Saw one today with several dead bees in front. Disiese, robbing, both? 

So if come spring 2 out of eight die, I might in my mind think good riddence. If come spring eight out of eight die I might think boy that was stupid.

I won't know what I will think when it is all done but know that yes, I am taking the chance that my hives will die from mites. And because I took that route, their does come a time when things can be too far gone too late in the year to change even if I decided too.

If I lose them all they will still be cheaper then this last dog that I have (due to my wife being involved and me loving her).
I do not say that others should do as I do or even think I am smart. I just try it on faith and know the risk and want to see. I may learn that it does not work for me as some have for themselves. Even if I learn it does not work for me, I know a guy it does work for and so think it possible and this may cause some bee death.

I am thinking while learning that I am going to kill a few hives in other ways then mite yet also. I am probly going to kill some in ways In have not even thought of yet. This is not my goal but more the risk that is taken when you start out knowing nothing at all. From nothing at all you try and adjust.

I have bought into the ideal that having enemys can make you stronger if it does not kill you but could not tell you I am willing to pay the cost to allow enough enemy pressure. I am starting that way though.

Now where the line is on what is common sense? I don't know and so I have just decided that I guess it is based on what the person with the skin in the game decides it is.

I will be honest, even on that dog that I do now spend some money on to sorta take care of her. I also slip her lots of table scraps and even some sugar and bacon and even know that for longivity, I am doing her no favors giving her those things. But I live my life that way too. I also eat more bacon then carrots.
Cheers
gww


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## mischief

I put the Apivar strip in.....in half a dozen pieces cos I ripped open the packet instead of cutting it open and it broke up.
I do feel a bit like a bit like I have done something wrong, even if it is supposed to be an organic treatment.

@gww, I spent $200 on a cat that I had originally picked up out of the local dump because she got milk fever with her first litter. The vet had to work out what he would give a cow per body weight and reduce that down to a 2 kg cat.

I drew a line at a certain amount of mites on the sticky board. That limit got reached so I put in the treatment, much against my personal beliefs and I do hope that is was the right thing to do.
My goal is to have a healthy, untreated hive, so I hope I will not have to continue down the path I just took.
There are alot of people out there who Are saying it is possible to be treatment free and I do believe it is possible.

When I opened up the hive, I found that there was in fact no comb built on the hive mat.
All the small cell frames I put in had varying degrees of having been built out, except of course, for the side I had smack up against a fat comb I was trying to keep on track.
The SC frame I put in between two capped brood frames was almost all built out and had capped brood and a bit of capped honey above it, which surprised me.
As I suspected and am not worried about, there was capped and open brood across most of the frames, one was wall to wall worker and a few with big patches of drone and capped honey.
I was quite pleased with what I saw and hope I havent messed up too much with having to put smaller pieces of the Apivar over the brood area than should have gone in.

I am wondering if it is a better idea to move the follower board back away from the last frames to give them back their hanging room that they had before. I did put in 2 frames with the starter strips at the end side, but dont think this is enough space for them- I saw for the first time, bees hanging around outside the hive, mostly behind the robber screen.

I'm goin to leave it alone for a couple of days and then check the sticky board to see what the mite drop is compared to the last fogging I did two days ago.


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## Oldtimer

Mischief, is this treatment you put in smelly stuff? I think you may have put in Api-Life-Var, a different product to Apivar.

Api-Life-Var is not very good at killing mites.


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## mischief

yeah, it really stinks ! and my sense of smells probably no the best.
Ah, thats not good. I didnt realise it was a different product.
Can I swear now?


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## Oldtimer

Yes, it sucks that the names are so similar, yet they are totally different products. I don't think it should be allowed, catches people out all the time.

Anyhow, could see what the mite drop is, but my feeling is it will kill some but not clean up the majority of mites in the hive. I have seen a lot of hives die cos Api-Life-Var was used and it didn't do the job.


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## gww

mischief


> and I do hope that is was the right thing to do.


When you are new like me, all you can do is do your best till you know more. Once a decision is made there is little sence in worrying though watching and learning still needs to be done.

Oldtimer has good intentions and enough experiance to help more then a blow hard like me and you are still the one that has to do it but I do believe he gives good advice and that is about the best that can be hoped for.

Good luck
gww


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## Specialkayme

Oldtimer said:


> Api-Life-Var is not very good at killing mites.


It isn't my "go to" product, in fact I avoid its use, due to the fact that it's efficacy rates are sometimes "hit or miss." That having been said, I wouldn't call it a worthless product. It still kills mites, just maybe not as good (or as consistently) as some of the other products. Plus the absconding rates increase.

My point is that I wouldn't say the stuff won't work. Just that it's questionable. No sense in looking back now. See if it works. If it does, you learned something. If it doesn't, adjust your approach if you can. If you can't, learn along the way.

I think your mentality is about right, and your approach is taken with good intentions, both in the short term (keeping them alive) and long term (goals of not relying on treatments). Document what you're learning along the way to get better next year, don't be discouraged or give up, and before you know it you'll be a dynamite beekeeper. Regardless of what you might think, we're all still learning (myself and Oldtimer included). Just some at steeper inclines than others


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## msl

JWPalmer said:


> I think everyone wants to believe that their bees are special. I know I sure did.


yep I had mystical fearals in natural topbar hives, Mites? why would I need to care about mites? lol 



JWPalmer said:


> I did not mean my statements to be an attack on tf beekeepers. But if one does become infested, do you let your bees die rather than treat?


 Now I treat( with the plan of requening) when the mite rolls tell me the hive is not going to be TF stock.
Look at the antibiotic free meat market... What does Joe AB Free rancher do when a cow gets sick? Let it die or maby spread to the rest of the herd? No, he treats it and sells it to a different market. 
letting bees die as a litmus test is a very poor idea unless your running a legit breeding program with a lot of hives. For most of us, A few mite rolls will tell you there chances of living TF .


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## JWPalmer

if you had ever used Apivar, you would know the difference right away. I caught it when you said it broke into pieces. Apivar is in really tough plastic strips, not only do they not break, they are hard to tear apart.


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## mischief

Well, a week after i put the strip in, I still have a live hive....and the sticky board had way too many mites to count. If fact, after I cleared the weeks worth away, reoiled it and put it back. I decided to go back after a couple of hours and check it again. There were yet another 32 mites and not all of them were dead. These got cleared off in an area of the back yard that doesnt have any flowers.
I have left the bits in seeing as it looks like it is actually doing something.

I saw the tiniest bee ever, so I guess the first lot of capped brood from the small cell frames has hatched out.

I'm now wondering how long I should leave it in there and whether or not I should put another one in seeing as it is working-not keen on that idea.
The instructions were really weird on my packet. I meant to keep it so I could write here as it was on the packet- basically said to put the second strip in the resealable bag, which is why I just tore it open- I was expecting another bag inside. Ne'mind.
It did say to leave in for a week or if it was hot, leave it for longer..... Its spring, not autumn when it was supposed to go in.... but it has been quite warm. 
I have to leave it for at least another week. cos I dont like opening the hive up all the time and my absolute limit on that is fortnightly for emergencies.

Should I just leave it in there til I cant smell it any more or will the bees just remove it anyway?


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## mischief

Specialkayme said:


> Wondering what led you to that conclusion, despite the high mite counts?
> 
> Not being critical, just legitimately wondering.


Hi,
I have a window that i can look through to see what is going on in the hive. 
Each time I look, I see at least one to three bees grooming others. an example, I watched one groom another, it lifted its wings so the groomer could get underneath each wing, then lifted its bottom so this could be seen too.

I have found drone brood with their eyes missing, underneath the hive. initially, i thought that the ants had been at them before I saw them, but then remembered that bees will eat down to where the mites are-Dee Lusby.
During the AFB check, the inspector pointed out brood cells that he said the bees had been in the process of de-capping for some reason.

it is probably wishful thinking, having just last week put in a treatment and finding ALOT of mites on the sticky board, but i still hope they are trying to get control of these pests.


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## Oldtimer

That's encouraging.

A way to tell if it's getting them all, or nearly all, is the first 2 weeks you get a pretty constant drop, as new mites become available to be killed as capped brood emerges. Then there should be a big drop in numbers, that's if enough mites were getting killed to prevent major reinvasion of new capped brood even after treatment was started.

If mite drop stays the same or only tapers off slowly even after 2 weeks, it shows that only a portion of the mites are being killed.

But anyhow, there's nothing more satisfying than seeing a pile of dead mites .


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## mischief

I cleared the board yesterday morning and checked again this afternoon...282 mites and not all of them were dead. thats not good. I am shocked that there are so many and am thinking that maybe i should put in another strip of the same sort, seeing as it is doing what it ought to.


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## Oldtimer

Yes. Don't give the mites a break to enable them to enter brood cells and produce another generation.


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## beepro

What OT siad. And when you use the oav to treat them you will see 1000 of mites dropping and dead on the
stick board too. This is how effective oav treatment is for the free running mites.


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## mischief

I ordered another lot of Api-life.

I should have done it on friday but hopefully it will get here by thursday.

On the up side, today was the first day I wasnt squashing a dozen DWV- struck bees crawling all over the courtyard- its next to the 'bee terrace' and a metre lower than it, so its been the bees idea dumping ground for unwanteds.

One other thing I noticed with the mites on the sticky board was that they were all dark red/brown and none of the beige ones or the pale brown ones. 
I dont know what the differences mean.


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## 1102009

It seems your bees try to groom and do hygienic behaviors ( living mites on board, opened cells) but infestation is too high.

If as much mites drop down as before, the lighter mite daughters are probably in the brood cells now. Do a sample opening some brood cells!
Do they have drone brood? 

It´s summer now at your country. Why don´t you shake the bees out to get rid of the defect ones, take away some brood combs which are infested and give them a fresh start?
You can do a sugar shake of the whole hive then to get rid of some phoretic mites also or go on treating them with ApiLife var.
Put them on comb and be careful of the queen.


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## mischief

hehe,
Thats why I started this thread...womdering if i should,(seeing as it is spring right now) do a brood break in an effort to reduce the mites and I was told that this was not a good idea, given the small size of my hive.
All I can do now is continue with the api-life til there is a significant drop in mites per the sticky board.

Part of my philosophy is do what works til its done.
I dont like the idea of treating so I chose an organic treatment (after fogging was not giving results I wanted).
This current treatment is getting results, so I will continue with it and keep putting them in til I get a big reduction. .....not one now and one in autumn.
I wonder if doing that contributes to treatment resistence.

I do the same for myself if I get sick.... if I have to go to the doctor and get a medicine, I use it to the point past where I am better. I think to do otherwise leads to resistence to medicine be it people or animals/insects.

Honestly, I am not up to doing a sugar shake or an alcohol wash or opening up brood cells and pulling babies out.

I was a bit worried when I was told that the Api-life wasnt going to work.
I didnt do what the instructions said cos I busted the strip into little pieces and had no choicce but to put all these little bits all over the tops of the frames instead of in the corners of the brood nest. Maybe that why I have got high mite drops, I havent been doing this long enough to know the difference.

I am thrilled that I have not had to squash poor deformed bees today and cant wait to put in the next lot.
ehh I sound like a hypocrite....never mind.


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## 1102009

Well, everyone has his convictions, no problem to me 
I rather give the babies a quick death in the freezer before having to pity the crawlers.
I see it as being a predator like a bear using them for food ( my chicken do).

I don´t believe the current treatment will lead to mite resistance.
Good luck and please update!


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## Oldtimer

mischief said:


> cant wait to put in the next lot.


LOL you have turned to the dark side 


But seriously


mischief said:


> I am thrilled that I have not had to squash poor deformed bees today.


This is great news. Hives with crawlers etc (in NZ) don't usually come back unless they are given some fairly heavy duty treatment, so I had my doubts how the api-life-var would go. But it is starting to sound like a success. 
And you sound like you understand the need to keep up the work till the job is properly done, so it's all looking good.

I agree with SiWolKe about doing a test. At this time you are getting a good idea, from the amount of mites on the drop board, plus the improved health of the bees. But when the mites on the board reduce to almost none, problem is you still don't really know if there are really none in the hive, or if there are, but the treatment isn't getting them. Not saying it's essential to do it, but if you want to go with organic type methods that may not be as mite deadly as the synthetics, then being able to test a bee sample and know for sure how things are going, is a great weapon to have in your arsenal. But, it's for the future, right now looks like it's going well .


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## mischief

Yeaaah, about that improved health....how????
Its been only two weeks since I started with the Api-life.....so, how did it all of a sudden fix them, when they would have been in capped cells before I started and it doesnt penetrate the wax so this stuff can only hit what is out 'n about in the hive.
Am I missing something here?

I have some powdered sugar, so I might have a go at the sugar shake this week. 
Is there some trick in how to scoop up the bees into the jar? Just grab a handful? Two hands and dump?
I dont like having the hive open too long and mine is up on a stand so I cant just release them onto a landing board....there isnt one. There would be a good chance that alot of the bees wouldnt be foragers. I suppose I could remove the follower board, close up to do the shake then pop them back into the empty section, the rest of them probably wouldnt even notice.


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## gww

Mischief
Shake a brood frame into a plastic tub, let the old bees fly off and get your half a cup of bees from what is left and dump the rest back in the hive.
Hope this helps.
gww


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## Oldtimer

mischief said:


> Yeaaah, about that improved health....how????
> Its been only two weeks since I started with the Api-life.....so, how did it all of a sudden fix them, when they would have been in capped cells before I started and it doesnt penetrate the wax so this stuff can only hit what is out 'n about in the hive.
> Am I missing something here?


I thought that myself when you said about not having to deal to any DWV bees. Not sure how that works in a 2 week time frame. Bees that hatch with deformed wings can linger for several days, so in the normal course of events you wouldn't see an improvement for 2 1/2 or 3 weeks. But the improved health comment was more about the future, you will learn to gauge the state of the hive by it's health, in particular the brood, which is where mites and their viruses do the most damage. But that's only when things get really bad, lower, but still dangerous mite levels, can fly under the radar to some extent.


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## mischief

Double up


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## mischief

I think I might have found the answer to that.
I watched as a possible SC bee tried for ages to get another bees off the robber screen and out of the hive- she got as far as the concrete slab beneath the hive. Actually, it was quite funny watching her flying flat out going nowhere with the 'unwanted' clinging to the robber screen for all it was worth. 
Then a sparrow appeared and gobbled up the crawlers.
Another looked like a firefighting helicopter with its water bucket dangling and swaying underneath and took off in the direction of my tidy neighbours place. 
So maybe the earlier dumpers have gone on to forage and the next lot have decided to dump behind the hive instead of infront of it where my courtyard is..
As I dont usually go up on the 'bee terrace' til it gets dark, it makes it a little hard to know how many crawlers the hive has, especially with the sparrows waiting for their next feed.

I did get the Api-life in the mail and did put it in with too many dramas.
I had to close up, run inside and grab up some more frames to put in- that was the most important one. There was only one frame where the queen(which I saw on the third frame furtherest from the entrance...heading for the last three frames.
Why? cos she it was probably the only spot she could lay in. there was one only one frame that looked empty except for the top of the frame which had capped honey.

They really do not like this stuff and there were a lot hanging out side the front of the hive making it hard for the foragers to get in to drop off their load.
I should have waited til monday to put in this strip. I work over the weekend and am not able to keep an eye on whats going on.

Interestingly, I saw foragers doing their waggle dance on the side of the hive. I had been told that they only do this on the combs and that the vibrations on the comb was a key factor......ah, no. I've seen them do this on the ends of the frames, on the observation window glass, on the outside of the robber screnn and now on the wall of the hive.

The sugar shake was a shocker.
I chose a frame loaded with bees, had a big jar with a mesh top waiting loaded up with too much sugar....only most of the bees flew away leaving me with maybe half a cup that then probably suffered from concussion from all the lumps in the sugar. I was a bit worried that they would suffocate in the stuff. It didnt occur to me to just dump the lot into the hive where the sugar and co would have fallen through the screened bottom onto the sticky board.
All That drama for only four mites.


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## mischief

I'm obviously really bad at doing sugar shakes, the sticky board tells a completely different story. After three days there was loads of mites on them.
Interestingly, there was no sign of the first lot of Api-life that I put in. 

My dog is really glad that they have started dropping their unwanteds elsewhere and not littering his courtyard with them any more.


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## Oldtimer

The thing is to see if numbers are reducing. If numbers are too high to count, what people do is divide drop board into squares, normally with a felt pen they draw lines across at say, 3 cm apart, and lines the opposite direction at 3 cm apart, which divides the whole thing into squares. Then 2 or three squares with an average looking number of mites in them are counted, and that is multiplied by the number of squares on the board, giving an approximate total. In this way you can see if mite numbers are actually reducing on the previous time you counted.

However unfortunately, your story is fairly typical of api-life-var users. It kills some mites, but not enough to put more than a temporary dent in their population. The other problem is that it is fairly hard on the bees, disrupting normal hive life. I have seen many people go through the process of using api-life-var, and either eventually losing the hive, or switching to a different treatment.


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## mischief

Hi, 
The sticky board does have squares marked out on them.
The mites arent actually all over the board, but in line with the gaps between certain frames. ...there are still alot of them even now.

I'm wondering if the problem people have been having with this product lies in the instructions.
"Method of application".
"Open up the sealed pouch of Api......., containing (wait for it) ....the two tablets, take one tablet break it up into 4 pieces and place one piece towards each corner of the top of the brood super. Replace the hive lid. Reseal the pouch containing any unused tablet. after 3-4 weeks, remove the used pieces and repeat with the second tablet, broken into 4 pieces.
Leave for the longer period of 4 weeks when daily temperatures are 15-20C. If mite infestations are severe, use a single application of two tablets per brood super for 6-8 weeks."

Okay, so I originally recieved this in the mail expecting one strip of product, I read the instructions,(amazingly) and think ...wow... I get two and a resealable pouch for the second one.
So, I break it open to find.....one strip, now in little pieces, not four.
I dont have brood super, so I put them over the end of the frames where I know I do have brood and leave them for two weeks.

I would normally have left it for another two weeks but I saw things through the observation window that made me alittle nervous, so after two weeks, I go back in to find......Not one speck of Api-Var-Life in the whole place.....not one piece. The bees have removed every single bit of it in within two weeks.

While I have seen what I think of as a huge mite drop in this time frame, I can see that if somebody actually followed the instructions and left their hive for the 6-8 weeks, they would most likely be in a lot of trouble.

I didnt follow the instructions, I did what I did before....put bits of the strip all over the ends of the frames where I knew there were (capped) brood. This time some fell down between the frames, which was unfortunate.
Three days later, again, I have a visually high level of mites on the boards, and again, not all over but in line with the gaps in the frames where there were known to be brood- its bit 'n piece all over the hive due to ahem, lots of nectar drying and not alot of comb to lay in and no, there was no swarm cells, but there was most definitely a supercedure cell being built.

So,,, my advice is do not follow the instructions.
The bees will pull this stuff out in two weeks, so have some more to replace it with. 
I got 4. I do hope I wont be using them all.
I will be counting tomorrow and clearing the board for the next week and will count again then.
Depending on what I find I will put in a third one in, in the same manner I did the last two.

This is where I get hissy. 
I was going to put MAQs in but was told they are too strong for my small hive.....
Then I get the wrong product and am told again, doom.....
I would rather not have been using anything at all other than the fogging with FGMO and wintergreen, only , I couldnt get anyone, until recently to give me the ratios of wintergreen to use, so I was only putting in enough that my bad sense of smell could smell....nowhere near what I was told to put in.

For some reason the MaQs never arrived and now, I dont really want to use them if they do, after what I have since read.

So far the Api-life-var is working, but not because I followed their instructions.
My advise to anyone who has put these in, is to check again after two weeks and makes sure the stuff is still in the hive- I bet it wont be.
Have some more ready to go in and check the sticky board.
I expect to have to put yet another strip in in another two weeks.

On the supercedure cell.
Its One cell in the middle of a frame, uncapped and doesnt look as long as other pictures I have seen, but not all that far off.
I saw the Queen heading towards the end of the hive where new comb was being built out.(on the third frame from the last, disappearing through a hole in that frame).
Most of the hive was full of uncapped honey, one frame was solid capped honey- the one nearest the end wall right by the entrance, a little bit of capped honey along the top of a couple of frames; solid patches of capped brood, mostly worker, no uncapped brood of any stage...I couldnt see any eggs but suspect there may have been some in a black plastic frame that was bare of honey or capped brood.

I thought that with the frames of waxed plastic small cell frames I put in, that they would build these up quickly so the queen woud have somewhere to lay in. They did start with one of the frames but unfortunately decided to continue to build out the previous frame, meaning there was a lovely fat honey comb with a little dimple where the small circle of capped brood was on the plastic frame. This then got filled up with honey........so

What I did was add three more plastic frames with foundationless between them right after the first frame (that has solid capped honey). I spread out the other frames so they would make ft honey comb and hopefully move the drying nectar to these freeing up the other not so quite built out frames.

What they did was abandon the last four frames they were working on in favour of the middle section-mostly fat comb and continue to work on the SM frames along here- I can see them building out the rest of those frames.. so far so good.
They have only just started on the newly inserted frames, going by the white scale wax on the sticky board.

The hive still sounds okay, if a little louder than before. There is, however, a strange banging noise that I dont know what to make of.


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## Oldtimer

Good story . You write well. So much to learn!

Using ones brain instead of following instructions can be a good thing sometimes.

Re the queen cell, normally for a hive like yours, my guess would be supersedure. But that's the problem with essential oils. They mess with the bees behavior, and with the queens egg laying. So it can be confusing to figure just what is going on.

Yes when the nectar is coming in fast, the bees will tend to extend an already built comb at the expense of the unbuilt one next to it.


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## mischief




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## mischief

Well, I was actually a day late in counting the mites in the sticky board. It should have been done yesterday but I was busy so I tried to do it today.
Now I know why it gets done after a couple of days- there is so much debris that it made counting really hard, I gave up after 450. I dont think that is very good, in fact I am feeling rather demoralised. How in hell are these bees still alive. 
I cleared the boards re-oiled and checked again after three hours=17 mites. However, some of these were not all the dark ones and two looked funny and possibly were males. 

So, I run the risk of wrecking the Queen scent causing supercedure- almost a given now or have them fail due to mites.


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## Oldtimer

Or, use the more bee friendly Apivar, which will also properly eradicate the mites


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## mischief

?????
"properly eradicate the mites?"
How many did you want gone?


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## Oldtimer

I'm just trying to help a newby in difficulty, can't be bothered arguing technicalities / wordplay.

You should have grasped the basic idea of what to do by now. End of day, your call.


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## mischief

I'm sorry you felt it was just wordplay.
I am reeling at the amount of mites falling and honestly puzzled that you seem to be saying they are not properly being eradicated.
I never expected to see so many and was expecting to see a drop in numbers.


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## beepro

OT has a very kind heart and trying to be helpful to newbies. He helped me a lot when I got the ants problem when I 
first started in beekeeping here. The words sometime just words in a sentence structure will make people think what is the intention behind it. Just the tone behind the sentence structure will get to people sometimes. I just had this experience myself so don't take it too harsh. I'm working hard to fix my wording from now on hoping I can perfect it one day.

"properly eradicate the mites?"
How many did you want gone?

Apivar over time will knock down the mites. This is a long term method to "properly eradicate the mites." OT is trying to help by suggesting another form of chemical treatment that you can use other than Api-life. He's not saying that your Api-life is not working to get rid of the mites. From the many mites drop the Api-life is working for you. But nobody know how effective it is compare to another chemical Apivar that OT recommend. Wording can be out of connection sometime when 2 people are at the opposite end of the spectrum. He doesn't get to see the mites drop either. You are trying very hard to clean up your hives too. Two different view point here.

And instead of wording "How many did you want gone?" The word YOU + want in this sentence will cause the other party to take it very personally on the wording. I would reword this sentence to be How many mites will
be gone? Or how many mites will it kill? Taking the you and want out of the sentence structure. This was just my own experience dealing with people recently so take it easy on me, o.k. Only trying to help. PM me for any inappropriate wording on my part so I can make the correction. I would recommend that you do further internet reading on each chemical brand use over time that you can compare their effectiveness.

You are working hard to deal with the mites issue that seems to be no end to it. When will the mites be gone will depend on how effective the chemical is over time at killing them. Also depend on how many mites are still inside the cap broods as new bees emerged everyday over a longer period. Sometimes it will take the last cap broods another extra week from the time of the treatment begin to knock them out. So if you know your mites and bees (cap broods) cycle, you can estimate on how long it will take the chemical to take them out. Nobody knows how many mites will be gone until the end of the bees emergence cycle and how many mites are in the cap broods before when they got infected??? The mites will not be in just one cap brood frame. They will scatter out to infect different cap brood frames on different cap brood days. Another way to get some good mites and bees education is to read up on their life cycle. This way you will have a better understand of them all. There are plenty of infos on the net and here for you to study on. I like to design my own little bee experiment to find out more about the mites and bees interaction especially on the cap broods emergence time. It is a year round effort on my part. This is the only way for me to understand more about what is going on inside my hives here.


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## gww

Bee pro
I thought your post was good.
gww


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## mischief

Yes, thank you.


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## mischief

I thought long and hard about your post, Beepro.

I think the underlying concern is that in New Zealand, it seems like treatment free beekeeping is a pipe dream.
We dont seem to have any sort of feral population,in fact I'd go as far as to say the current opinion is as follows - "drones are useless eaters, swarms are dangerous/ or annoying to the public and feral are diseased". 

After reading through sybille and squarepegs thread(still working my way through his), the main thing I see is the need to have some sort of feral gene pool..
Wanting to be treatment free under these circumstances is probably going to lead nowhere, which to be honest, is what others have been trying to point out to me. They've tried and it didnt work, therefore, its not going to work.....not in NZ.
Thats disappointing.

All I can see now is to try to regress these bees down to the small cell and keep them there at least three years all the while keeping them alive by whatever means so they have the chance to supersede, swarm and create as many drones as they want in the hope that they can somehow create a critical mass, hopefully in my local area.


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## 1102009

mischief,
I heard from my new acquaintances that there are many more persons among the German and Swiss beekeepers, than I thought, that are treatment-free. be it hobby or commercial.
Little is learned about them, as they are often not active in forums and only exchange information over the telephone, a protective action against mobbing, be it the attacks of the intolerant commercial beekeepers or the law.
I hope for me to expand my contacts and maybe even find out if bond without IPM is possible.

Because it could be my knowledge in beekeeping, that still prevents bond, since doing bond is as hard here than in NZ, probably.

We are all in one mind about sc, or rather sc natural comb though. There are a factor of health. After some years of regression the bees build smaller cells 4.8-5.1 in broodnest area, maybe not all races but most.
good luck!


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## mischief

Thanks Sybille,
I never thought about a treatment free "underground movement", hehe.....that gives me alittle more hope.

I wondered about the Dadent deep frames and if this makes it easier on the bees to do their thing. I couldnt get them here but did find a Jumbo sized comb which is about a 1/4 deeper that a full deep.
I bought a hive load of these to try out, but want to try building my own hive using old wood.
Might not be this year cos I have alot of little projects to finish before I start another one.

Been thinking about how to create homes for feral bees.....if you can (shhhh), put a naughty box out that scouts might find interesting; I dont see why I can't put a hole in a wall and squirt a bit of LG oil in it,......just to see what would happen. I happen to have a few good, I mean, interesting spots.


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## mischief

Well the next 3day count was 172 which is 100 down from the earlier one. The last time I went to count was around the 5 day mark and there was so much debris, I couldnt count them.
What I found was after a week, there was only one small piece of Api-life var on the tops of the frames so the bees had been extra fast in getting rid of this stuff.
After going through all the frames, I found very little room for the Queen to lay in due to lots of uncapped nectar in just all but one frame..... and a supercedure cell fully formed.
hmm.
So, I decided against putting in the third Api-life strip, moved the 'full of honey but not quite all capped", further apart in the hopes that they would fatten these up rather than cap other frames. The idea behind this was to get them to free up the cells they were drying the nectar so the Queen had somewhere to lay and by not putting this stinky stuff in, they might realise that they did have a good Queen.
On the last inspection, This seems to have worked, so far.
I am not seeing many crawlers of any sort on the courtyard or behind the the hive-only three and the volume of activity at the entrance has kept increasing.

I have to say that I was expecting a bite on the artificial feral hive idea and was highly disappointed.
I do think we have a problem here with the lack of feral bees and I have been thinking about this for some time.
I also believe that if I was to try to attract a swarm to a "hole in the wall", it then becomes my responsiblity should it do so.
What I am trying to work out before I get my drill out, is how to make a moveable and thus inspectable frame that will fit inside the studs of my garage.
I have four that could be used. These would not be useful for a year round hive, more along the lines of a constant swarming sort of hive.
I like the idea of seeing what is going on so I am looking at getting some perspex to cover the inside of the 'hive'.
I think I have almost finalised my master plan, just need to acquire some perspex


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## 1102009

> I found very little room for the Queen to lay in due to lots of uncapped nectar in just all but one frame..... and a supercedure cell fully formed.


Well, they seem to know what to do when over the threshold. Broodbrake, no laying space.

So now you forced your management on them keeping the old susceptible queen? Or let them shift her?

Thanks for updating.


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## mischief

If they do replace her, it is a good time of year to do so.
I hope they dont cos she is only a year old and seems to be doing well from my limited knowledge.


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## Sharpbees

Since you've decided to treat, make sure to do a mite count at the end of treatment to see how well it worked. I generally try for no more than 5 mites per 300 bees in an alcohol wash. I prefer to get that down to 3 mites/300 bees in my own yards.


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## mischief

Thanks for that, but.... I'm not too sure I am up to doing an alcohol wash yet. I only recently managed a badly done sugar shake.
I have been taking note of what is on the sticky board and have found that it does need to be Sticky/oily or mites can just walk off. Oily boards also seem to glue the wax moths to it as well and I have had alot of success with that.


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## mischief

Well, in spite of all my newbie ineptitude, my hive is still alive going into autumn/fall.
I havent done any other treatments including fogging for so long I forgot when the last one was.
I think I will fog them tomorrow seeing as we are going into autumn now, just to make sure all is as well as I think it is.
.
I havent seen any sign of DWV for ages.
I'm not seeing any drop in numbers either in the hive or those doing orientation flights. Natural mite fall has been around 3-4. 

I think they have more than enough frames of honey already to go into winter and am hoping that they have partially built out some of the SC frames so I can use them in a swarm trap next spring.
I put way too many in hoping that it wouldnt interfere with their winter preps and also that they would make a start on them, making them nice and smelly, so I could remove them before winter and use them in the next two hives I plan to get set up.

One thing I realised that I was doing that may not have been a good idea, was to do the fogging in mid morning. I originally thought that it would be better to do it while the foragers were out and about, not knowing about such things as mite bombs.
When I do the next fogging I'm going to make sure its done early evening when most of the foragers-and visiting drones are tucked up inside for the night.

This time of year, I am home for most of the week and spend way too much time watching the entrance, so I know that there are no DWV crawlers being gobbled up by the sparrows....but, I need to know. 
Its possible that they have a new Queen and so I do not want to use the Apilife var cos its too stinky, so its got to be the FGMO fogging.

I am quietly ecstatic with how things have gone this year so far. I'm not going to have to feed syrup to make sure they have enough stores like I did last year and they appear to be still lugging it and pollen in- 3 months to winter and looking good.


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## mischief

JWPalmer said:


> Has anyone ever made the comparison that varroa on a bee is like fleas on a dog? Think about it. We treat our dogs, not because they are sick, but because the fleas make them miserable and could get them sick. Do we not treat our pets in the hopes that one day a flea free dog strain will develop? Of course not. Why then do we expect it of our bees. The amazing thing is, once we get rid of the varroa, the bees are remakably able, for the most part, to rid themselves of the diseases caused by the mites. So don't treat an infested hive. Don't use flea treatment on Fido (Phydeaux for those in Louisiana). And while we are at it, don't bother to immunize your children either. Wouldn't want to keep propagating sickly children, would we?


I have just been going through my thread again and came across this post.
firstly, fleas dont kill. they can make dogs (and cats) miserable, but they dont kill them.
2nd, I just realised that I havent treated my three year old dog for the last two years for fleas and just checked to see if he did in fact have any...nope.
Not going to get drawn into the immunisation idea either. You are either for it or against it, lines drawn.

I have a funny feeling that the idea of not wanting to propagate sickly children is a key factor for both camps.


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## mischief

beepro said:


> If the hive is inside a natural growing tree then swarming and supersedure is norma and natural. But you are
> actively or should be actively monitoring and preventing any swarming when the signs are there. Because
> you are using a man made hive box to keep them. This make a world of difference in that it is not natural
> anymore for the bees and you. A responsible beekeeper should feed them when they are starving, keep the
> mites population low to restock with resistant stocks later on, and try to stop the swarm when possible. This is my
> take when we put the bees inside a man made hive box. Is this still a natural process for the bees?


Wow, I didnt really notice this before. 
Hang on a minute...if the hive was in a tree then it would be okay if they supersede or swarm,,, but cos they are in a manmade box then thats a no-no? Seriously?


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## 1102009

mischief said:


> I have a funny feeling that the idea of not wanting to propagate sickly children is a key factor for both camps.


True! Best to you, mischief, and luck to your bees.

I´ve kept dogs for my whole life and treated them with a spot-on insecticide in earlier times because of ticks.
Two of them developed liver disease. The veterinary said this could be a side effect of the medicine, but since dogs live only ten years, they will die before being sick of insecticides.
Ten years? My dogs were all older when they passed away. 
Today I scan them and remove ticks. No more chemicals. They always had some ticks but no problems.

Compare this to sugar shakes with the bees


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## mischief

I used to have a cat, the dog I had then always had fleas and I would always treat.
I think the cat used to bring them into the house.
Now I have no cat. and my dog has no fleas....
There is a much quoted saying....
Dont say it pleas....hehe


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## 1102009

*flea bomb!!!* Sorry  :lpf:


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## mischief

haha where's the like button?


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## 1102009

Tell the neighbors to treat their cats!


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## mischief

Its now the first week of winter.
My hive is still alive and appears to be of similar size to last winter.
They still fly in the rain, even heavy rain so long as its not windy with it.
I am seeing bees of all different sizes going out foraging and doing orientation flights, even saw some pale yellow pollen coming in last week.
Looking through the window, they are have moved over from the first three frames, so lots of stores in there.
So far so good.


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