# Buying AFB Queens



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

That one is easy.....South Africa!


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

The obvious question is -- WHY? I can understand if they're doing bona fide research, but then anyone capable of competent research on AHB ought to know how to acquire (and more importantly contain) AHB. I wouldn't touch that one with a 10 foot pole.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My guess is many are bringing them back from California with to various locations. They shouldn't be that hard to find. Much harder to indentify them.

Just buy some queens from Texas.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I agree with GaSteve....but does anyone know where I can buy a 4 foot pit viper with bad attitude?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Was this person considering bring them into Oregon? If so, that's very disturbing! Why in the world would anyone actively seek out AHB? 

Even if you did know where to get them, why would you enable such a reckless act? Just tell him to wait a few years and with actions of other reckless people he'll have all the AHB that he can handle. Or consider that not every question deserves an answer.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Personally, I do not think too differently about Africanized bees. When I was in Texas, I had a chance to work with them and talk with some people who work them. They tell me, which is understandable, that they do have a lot of advantagous and that the only negative aspect is that they are more aggresive. I talked about this point with them a little more and the old man said its the same idea of buying a pet bowl dog (sp?) or having a snake or collecting spiders. You just have to KNOW how to work with them he said. It makes a lot of since. 

So to the guy who wants them, thats great. I have no idea f his intentions. Its not illegal. Its going to happen anyway.... its just a matter of WHEN. 

I think people are afraid of them because they do not UNDERSTAND them and in my experiance, people are affraid of what they do not understand!


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Personally, I do not think too differently about Africanized bees. When I was in Texas, I had a chance to work with them and talk with some people who work them. They tell me, which is understandable, that they do have a lot of advantagous and that the only negative aspect is that they are more aggresive. I talked about this point with them a little more and the old man said its the same idea of buying a pet bowl dog (sp?) or having a snake or collecting spiders. You just have to KNOW how to work with them he said. It makes a lot of since. 

So to the guy who wants them, thats great. I have no idea f his intentions. Its not illegal. Its going to happen anyway.... its just a matter of WHEN. 

I think people are afraid of them because they do not UNDERSTAND them and in my experiance, people are affraid of what they do not understand!


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

>Why in the world would anyone actively seek out AHB?

As I usually think the worse, you gotta wonder if someone's up to no good.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

I understand that I don't want hives that are aggressive around my 5 beautiful children. 

I understand that a hive sitting in a field where it isn't bothering anybody could create a swarm that could take over the hives in my backyard, thereby threatening my children (and me)(and my wife).

I understand that a hot hive in my backyard would have to be dealt with immediately, which means a lot of soapy water and a dead hive. I wouldn't/couldn't wait 6 weeks for a new queen to propegate gentler bees.

I don't understand why anybody would want that, and therefore I am afraid of that. So I guess I am afraid of what I don't understand.

Sure they might be there eventually, but why rush it????


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Chef,

I'm sure glad you live on the opposite side of the country from me. The logic you state is quite flawed. It is this same flawed logic that has accelerated the spread of AHB. It is one thing to accept a risk that affects only you, but its completely different to impose such a risk onto unsuspecting neighbors. That is the case here. The impact of importing AHB into an area currently not populated with AHB is very reckless. The drones from this guy's new AHB hive are now propagating to the poor guy down the street who may feel safe because AHB are reported to be only south of northern CA. This situation has the ingredients for a fatal conclusion. 

I'm not a newbee and yes I have worked hot hives a number of times. It is not fun at all. I can only imagine what AHB will do to beekeeping in this country.

Lastly, please consider that there are a lot of things that aren't illegal but are still very stupid to pursue.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I would some day like the oppertunity to work a AHB hive, just to see if their as bad as their reputation says they are. Having said that, I would not want them to be an everyday beekeeping expericance. I don't understand why anyone who had the choice not to have them as their normal stock, would want them. It is bad enough that all the normal queenrearing areas are being overrun with them, which increases the chances that I won't have to journey to Texas to work a hive of them someday. You never miss what you have until it's gone, and I for one, would not hasten it's leaving by indulging some fool who thinks he knows what AHB's are all about. Just my two cents.

peggjam


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Aspera, I have six western diamondbacks for sale. They are pit vipers. Also have two beautiful snakes crossed between a western diamondback and a prairie rattler. They will cost you a little more. If you don't like the venom, I have a 12 ft anaconda, also.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Here is a link to info about a beekeeper who intentionally keeps AHB's (or so he proclaims):

http://www.bisbeemarquee.com/themall/set.php?vid=102


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

As a USDA accredited veterinarian, I would take issue with the statement "its not illegal". Actually, it is illegal and would be considered a threat to our livestock resources. You won't get caught because the trafficking of bees (animals in general) is largely under/unregulated. That doesn't mean that that the transportation of invasive and dangerous organisms meets federal and state guidelines. How much bad press and human injury is it worth? If you don't believe me just call APHIS and ask if you could be held liable for a stinging death (many of these have occurred in Brazil over the past 4 decades).


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Iddee,

Are they ill tempered? The mutated sea bass and sharks with laser beams mounted on their heads just aren't working out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If my bees once killed a mouse can I sell "killer bee" honey too?

The world will one day come to an end. I will eventually die. I'm not in any hurry for either of these eventualities.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

<So to the guy who wants them, thats great. I have no idea f his intentions. Its not illegal. Its going to happen anyway.... its just a matter of WHEN.>

It's not great. You need to know his intentions. You are responsible for your actions and the results of those actions. It is illegal. MB covered the WHEN.

<I think people are afraid of them because they do not UNDERSTAND them and in my experiance, people are affraid of what they do not understand!>

I am not afraid of AHB. I would rather work Italians in Langs. If my neighbor breeds AHB, I will not be able to work Italians and I will have to switch to TBHs. I would resent anybody who helped him do that to me.

And personally, I wouldn't help anyone do that. It's an immoral act Chef and I would eexpect you to know that.

Hawk


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Aspera, I think you thought I was joking. I wasn't. I have them and they are for sale.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Iddee,

I think that snakes are wonderful, magestic creatures. For me, they best appreciated in their natural habitat. But seriously, those mutated sea bass just aren't working out as part of evil empire.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I pretty much agree with all of you. Please do not take offence as I have already decided not to help this gent and emailed this info to the bee club that I am envolved in. 

However, I am just saying that they are not that bad or different to work with. Do not forget that we are demosticating (sp) what once was wild. I am not adovating the use of AHB but there are interesting articals that do state the beneifts of them as there are articals that egsagerate (sp?) how mean and nasty the are. 

Its going to come.. just like everything else is. I laughed when a beekeeper told my gradfathers beekeeping parter and I that the small hive beetle wouldnt come to oregon and washington because we do not have the type of soil or weather they like. We knew it was going to happen... and AHB will come. 

So to sum it up... I am not helping the guy.... nor do I plan to advocate the use of such things. I am sharing my brief encounter with having the experiance with working with AHB and saying just commenting that they are not as bad to work with as all the media hype (bee ralated and non bee related) has said. Do I want them to come? No. I enjoy working with my bees without getting into a frenzy. 

This is just me on my soap box for the day. Tomarrow... I will be sane again!


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

"I understand if it's for bona fide research"

I'd like to get ahold of the bona fide researcher in Brazil that started this whole plague with 26 africanized queens. ( and the non-beekeeping employee that pulled the entrance queen excluders)

idee - Why?? Didn't you see the movie??

Chef, I think people are afraid of africanized bees because they have a history of stinging people, pets and livestock absolutely to death!


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Joel, the last movie I saw was in the 1970's. Was it before that???
And that's no joke, either.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Working the AHB is not the problem. Finding a place to site them is. Here in the east they will mean the end of hobby beekeeping. I had a hive that checked out to a 12% possibility of being africanized. (Thats how they phrase it in Tucson). I played with them for a bit and finally destroyed them because I was afraid 1 somone would get hurt and 2.that they would swarm and provide drones for the area. It sure took the fun out of beekeeping as I couldn't get out of the car unless I was dressed for battle.

Dickm


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

umm,
dickm,
where did you have these bee's?
Tucson or Conneticut?

Dave


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The hottest colony of "Italian" bees I ever worked stung me over 100 times in less than a minute. Needless to say, I went back dressed in armor. For the record, there was a very big reason they were so aggressive and it was NOT genetics.

Compared to an Africanized colony, those Italians would seem harmless as house flies. I like to be able to keep bees behind my house in the bushes where nobody can see them. I couldn't keep Africanized bees there because of the risk to neighbors. Working with Africanized bees can be done. Producing honey with Africanized bees can be done. Maintaining good relations with my neighbors while keeping Africanized bees CAN'T be done.

Fusion


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## Amanda2fan (Aug 14, 2005)

Have there been any signs of them moving West yet? Like in the general direction of Wyoming??  I personally don't understand why people would want these anywhere near themselves. What I've read about them wasn't written by the media, and none of it was complimentary. Is it just the thrill? to say "I have AHB and they're fine"? I could do without that LOL


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Amanda, to my reckoning that would be North. And no, it'll be a while before they can acclimate to Wyoming. 

Good Luck,

Hawk


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Perhaps I'm preaching to the choir and this has all been said before but... AHB are quite different from EHB. They're from the tropics and they have adapted to life in the tropics. These adaptations include:

1) Increased aggressiveness presumably due to heavier predation by man and animal.

2) Increased tendancy to abscond, presumably due to the same reasons as above.

3) Smaller colony size. Easier to abscond.

4) Increased tendancy to swarm- significantly more so than EHB. Helps maintain the small colony size necessary for absconding!

As AHB moves into more temperate zones and breed with local bees, many of their genetic traits are going to be passed on. Some traits will get selected out as they're not traits that are conducive to life in colder climates, such as colony size perhaps, but most of their traits are actually ideal adaptations to life where it snows and seasons are short. They may need to swarm less to build bigger colonies to collect more stores to survive longer winters. Will they become less aggressive? Will their tendancy to abscond diminish? Good questions. Regardless, they ARE flourishing in the southern US and they will continue to move north. How far, how fast? Dunno, but as they do, our beekeeping methods will have to change to accomodate them. No reason to hasten the migration- they're quite capable of migrating as it is, without our help.

Gloom and Doom forecast over. You may return to your complacent beekeeping discussion!

George-


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## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

Isn't ironic that, at this very moment, the main brazilian discussion list on beekeeping has the same topic, but upside down? 

There are several guys here, especially begginers, who'd want to have a hive or two in the backyard and fight for being able to import euroqueens and keep gentle bees (despite the unsuccessful attempts in the past). Importation of bees is strictly prohibited in Brazil, but some beekeepers found a way to smuggle queens from Argentina.

But the AHBkeepers get mad at them. They fear that eurocolonies will eventually be an open door for diseases like american foulbrood and mites, which would inevitably be treated with drugs by some and would probably ruin the reputation of the brazilian honey in the international market.

The conservative side is absolute majority in both countries and who can say that one of them is wrong?

João


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Joao,

You always have an interesting perspective in your posts. Have any of these hobbiest ever petitioned for the importation of queens from Hawaii? The motto there is "no mites, no AHB" and foulbrood shouldn't be much of a concern with queen importation. I can empathize with the Brazilian who wants to have a couple of beehives that won't bother the neighbor's dog and don't require a veil for a quick inspection.


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## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

> Have any of these hobbiest ever petitioned for the importation of queens from Hawaii?


They probably have thought about that, but maybe costs and red tape prevented any serious try.



> I can empathize with the Brazilian who wants to have a couple of beehives that won't bother the neighbor's dog and don't require a veil for a quick inspection.


So can I.








That's why I keep a watchful eye on what you have been talking about sugar dusting, small cell, ...

João


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

> Just buy some queens from Texas.


Michael, Michael -- feeling your oats today? Believe it or not, we still have some fairly docile bees here.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've had a lot of wonderful bees from Texas. I'm sure there are still some wonderful bees in Texas. The last ones I got weren't so wonderful.







Well, come to think of it, *I* was rather full of wonder at how vicious they were since I'd never seen bees that mean before.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I've been keeping bees in AHB country for almost 9 years now (Tucson, Arizona). So far the Africanized Hybrid Super-Bee has not noticeably "taken-over" any of my colonies. However, if they have done any infiltrating it hasn't been noticeable, they are no more likely to swarm, be defensive/aggressive, or be smaller size colonies than any EHB's I've kept since 1964. Actually some of those EHB colonies had been extremely hot and defensive/aggressive. Notice the use of the word "Had".

We are all aware, in general, that we humans have the edge on AHB or any other creature with a genetic predisposition to behavior we find objectionable. We know that despite the difficulty, we can, with persistence, eliminate those genetic traits we wish to eliminate. We have some understanding of genetics. We are aware that the more honeybee colonies identified as HOT that we destroy, eventually the fewer there will be, until eventually there will be none at all.

I havent met anyone yet who has honeybees that no matter how they are handled, or when they are handled will always behave like newborn kittens and never offer a sting. Who would try to open a hive that was extremely populous, on the verge of starvation, and during a rain storm, and not expect a serious attitude check?

I do know how to quickly turn the hottest hive into the most peacful hive possible.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I would also like to add that an argessive hive does help in fighting varroa, SHB, and ants.


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## Big Ed (Jul 1, 2005)

I've been pretty bummed lately after reading this month's ABJ. The gentleman on the cover inspecting his hives for SHB, is a local beekeeper with over 100 hives that I bought my nucs from when I started out 3 years ago. I never thought SHB would come to the St. Louis area, but apparantly it was wishful thinking. I don't have them yet, but it is a matter of time. Now that AHB is in southern Arkansas, I am wondering how long until I have to deal with them in Missouri. Five years? Ten years? I dunno. But, I can tell you, it will probably be the end of beekeeping for me. I already had a run in with two hives of ferocious bees headed by queens from Texas. They had to be part africanized. I requeened them, but that was the longest two months waiting for the old ones to die. My hives are 100 yards from my house, and they still went looking for you a week after being opened. I could not deal with that at home, or the other 3 family farms I am or will be keeping bees at. It saddens me to think I will have to kill my hives unless I can come up with a solution (besides moving to Canada to stay ahead of them!)


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Big Ed,

Sounds like things are getting pretty rough in Missouri. I wish I could offer meaningful advice on SHB, but aside from taller hive stands it seems like a tough bug to stop. I hope never to deal with these problems, but I geuss that is my own wishful thinking. Maybe AHB is why so many CA beehives are run by Cordevan Italian queens.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I requeened them, but that was the longest two months waiting for the old ones to die. 

Next time break them up into several small hives and they will be instantly better behaved than they were as a large hive. Also, if you think you're to the point of killing some, kill the old ones. They are the grouchy ones. Move all the boxes behind the old location and put an empty box with some comb on the old site to catch the field bees. Then dispose of the field bees instead of all the bees.


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## Big Ed (Jul 1, 2005)

Sounds like good advice, Michael.....but then I wouldn't have as many funny stories to tell! Like my bee club president coming over to help me requeen(it was my first year), thinking my wife and I were exagerating. He got off his motorcycle with a jacket and hat/veil combo and canvas gloves. My wife and I were so protected ,we looked like we had snowmobile suits on.







Needless to say, he couldn't close those hives up fast enough, and wanted to kill them on the spot.  30 plus stings through his jeans, veil, and gloves(he actually had venom running down his forarm!) I had two new queens and didn't want to waste them, so I tried requeening them over a division screen with excellent results. The best part was when the bee club president beat a hasty retreat and left fully protected on his motorcycle. Five miutes later my neighbor 200 yards away wanted to know who was riding a motorcycle with a veil on with 100 angry bees around his head!  He told me later he has never seen bees that angry, and that they stayed with him 1/4 mile until he hit the main road!


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

I would be trying to get him voted out asap. He doesn't need to be in a leading position if he will leave a newbee with a mean hive and no answers. I can't say that I would care much for that man.


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## Big Ed (Jul 1, 2005)

Iddee, he is really a nice guy, I just didn't want to take his advice. He had never had good luck requeening very aggressive hives(in the conventional manner), but I wanted to try. He was concerned about us having to live with them for 2 months, and thought it would be prudent to destoy them and split off my other two gentler hives. I placed a double division board in between brood boxes after moving some capped brood and stores up top and left the cork in the queen cage for a few days to lengthen the release time. Luckily it worked, and they became gentle as lambs. For a while though, we had to walk quickly to the car, and they would even wait for you outside the back door. My wife even had to garden in a veil, and even then got run in the house on occasion.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

I wasn't referring to the operation and whether it was right or wrong. I was referring to leaving a friend in an emergency. I'm sorry, but if it had been me I would have left when you did, or left only long enough to get more protection. I would never have left and not looked back.
I'm sorry, I just cannot condone that kind of action from anyone.
Maybe a throwback from NAM, I don't know.


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## Big Ed (Jul 1, 2005)

Iddee, I think I gave you the wrong impression. He didn't leave me high and dry, I just decided to do something different, and he had to skeedaddle out of there with a cloud of bees around him(after staying there with me for an hour and taking a lot of hits). He followed my progress closely, and would have come back out if I needed help, but I told him it went well. He really has been a good resource. I know where you are coming from though, "We leave no man behind". I was a U.S. Marine in the 1st Gulf War and am now a full time firefighter.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Maybe my misunderstanding. If so, Sorry. It's just the way it sounded.


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## Big Ed (Jul 1, 2005)

No prob.


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

The person should be handled with great force and violence. Utterly intolerable, and probably a breach of a state law, if not a breach of the peace.


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