# ccommercial way for installing packages



## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

take 100 empty deep shells with ya.pull feeder can install queen in box with combs.turn package over and just let the bees crawl out onto combs.leave the empty shell on until you turn the queens loose.good luck


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I direct release. I collect the queen cages as I go as they get confused by them. I worry about picking up all the packages later. I just work my way down the line. Pull the can, pull the queen, shake them in, release the queen, put the frames in, put the lid on and start on the next.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> I direct release. I collect the queen cages as I go as they get confused by them. I worry about picking up all the packages later. I just work my way down the line. Pull the can, pull the queen, shake them in, release the queen, put the frames in, put the lid on and start on the next.


This is the worst advice that I have read in my 22 years of beekeeping.
PLEASE DO NOT FOLLOW THIS ADVISE!!

If you want as close to 100% queen acceptance as possible, do the following.
Install the package around the queen cage provided.
Do not poke a hole in the candy plug.
Fill the feeder with syrup.
DO NOT return to the hive other that to quietly fill feeders for AT LEAST 10 days.
AFTER ten days, queen check and remove the queen cage.
Who to believe? Read the Hive And HoneyBee.
Do they suggest that you just "dump in the queen"?
Of course they don't!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Here are a few threads on the subject. Apparently I'm not the only proponent of direct release...

http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-188182.html

Butterchurn
03-09-2005, 07:32 AM
The University of Minnesota has been preaching the quick direct release for packages as long as I can remember. I've always taken their advice and I've never lost a queen this way.

Your situation may be different, so check how the bees are treating the queen. As I said, it has never failed to work for me. Like Michael, there have been a couple of times when the queen didn't want to go where I wanted her and I got a bit anxious, but its worked so far.

You probably wont have any problems.

Ron


http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-186630.html

Jim Fischer
02-23-2006, 11:25 AM
I disagree with all the "special" suggestions here.
Just put the queen in (direct release), dump
the bees in the box, and let 'em do their thing.

By the time packages are delivered to any but
the largest beekeepers placing the largest
"early" orders, the temps are fine to be
tossing the bees straight into a full medium
or two.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-187787.html

Jim Fischer
03-08-2006, 09:25 PM
There is NO REASON to leave the queen in the
cage when she has spent several days in a
package. Just release her directly into the
hive after shaking some or all of the package
into the hive.

Sure, you need to remove attendants and insert
the queen in the cage to give the colony time
to get used to the queen and "release" her when
requeening, but when the queen comes with
a package, there is no need for such
nonsense.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-188182.html

Jim Fischer
03-08-2005, 02:27 PM
> If the bees are sent with a queen... why would
> they reject and kill her especially since she
> was within the package for many days??

A very astute observation!

What the book related was yet another bit of
beekeeping mythology that "everyone" persists
in repeating, to the detriment of better
understanding of bee behavior.

The process of "installing a package" is a bit
chaotic for the bees, so there may be some minor
advantage to keeping the queen "protected" when
the bees are "very confused", but I don't know of
any reason why one could not release the queen
directly into the colony after a short period
of observation of the queen in the cage on the
top bars (a few minutes at most) to verify that
the bees are fanning her scent, and not biting at
the screen of the cage.

Bees around a queen should be "peaceful looking".
It is easy to see "aggressive behavior" after one
has paid attention to what a normal situation
looks like. The whole stance of the bee is
different.

Don't listen to books or people who repeat
old wive's tales. You are correct. If you
asked them this exact question, they would
for forced to admit that they had no valid
reason to make you go back a second time
to remove that queen cage.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Doesn't Ron Householder install a HUGE amount of packages each year in his operation? Ron do you have any advice here?


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

do not install in the day unless cool and cloudy. Install later in the evening where the bees will fly less, drifting less.


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## guyross (Feb 18, 2011)

I recommend wearing good protective gear. We have come across some hot packages this year. My friend got thirty stings and that many more in his jacket collar. The bees are great though.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

For years we installed between 500-700 packages every spring in a manner similar to what Michael Bush describes. We direct released the queen with close to 100% success. No going back to collect queen or package cages. These queens had been with the packages for a minimum of three days prior to our getting them up here to Wisconsin. That time of safe introduction of the queen is critical.
If we produce packages here for customers we either hold them in a dark room for 3 days before releasing them to the customer so there is good queen acceptance or we make sure the customer understands the queen *must* not be released to the general population until that much time had passed. Most failure of queen introductions are from too early release.

When starting out new keepers we recommend hanging the queen in her cage between the frames in the middle of the cluster, with the candy either replaced with a marshmallow or a hole drilled in the candy (assuming the queen has been with the caged bees for 3 days). We just want to retain that queen in the cage until the cover is back on. There is no danger she won't be accepted; it is just too easy for a newbee to let her fly away when trying to direct release. And yes, stay out of that hive except to check to see that she is out of the cage and/or fill the feeder, for a week. Within a couple days _carefully_ check the cage, without pulling frames. If she is still in the cage, direct release her by holding the open cage down between the frames and letting her walk out.
Sheri
PS if the day is warm we sprayed sugar water on the cage prior to shaking them out. And yes, Keith, we know you hate to see bees "shook", lol


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

The best reason for a new beekeeper _not_ to direct release the queen is that the supplier will probably not be overly willing to replace a queen if she fails after direct release. Two years ago we got a few extra queens with our packages, one of them had no wings at all (how did she mate? did she mate?).

When we have done direct release with package queens we have had near 100% success.

As far as installing packages, we tried last year removing half the frames, put the queen cage between a couple of frames, shake a few bees on her, then place the package (with the top open) in the box (where the frames have been removed). A couple of hours later, the bees are clustered on the combs, the package is empty, and can be removed....many many less bees in the air, less drifting.

deknow


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## dback (Jan 8, 2012)

We set everything up the day before. Feeders 3/4 full, box full of frames (mostly drawn) and empty shallow on top. We install 1000 each morning for a couple of mornings.....takes about 4 hours. Each man has a 'Maxant' tool.....goes like this. Smack the can with 'hook' end of tool....lift can out with hook end of tool piercing the can, set pierced end of can on feeder, flip hive tool and smack other end of can to allow syrup to drain into feeder......remove queen, place between frames with adhering bees close to feeder, lay package on top with opening towards queen, toss empty can, replace lid.......voila'.....about 45 seconds per package. We clean up trash that day and remove cage and empty a couple of days later when we release queens.

Cut down on drift with smaller groups, in brush.

We never direct release......never know how long that queen has been with the package.


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## bigbill (Sep 27, 2009)

these are the suggestions i was looking for thank you guys so much bill


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

If you really think about it doesn't it make sense to just direct release the queen provided they have been with the package for at least 3 days? Its their queen after all. We run our queens in every time and I don't ever recall having a problem. Whatever works for you is your best method.


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## monrovi (Jan 22, 2012)

Is it still ok to direct release if there is no draw comb?


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

In my opinion yes. Make her feel right at home asap.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If you are new to installing packages, the primary thing that can cost you a few failures is drifting. The bees get dumped out of the package, and have no idea where they are supposed to go. One of the hives get sorted and start fanning out scent pheremone, and nearby bees all drift to that hive.

So first time around, you probably won't handle the bees perfectly, so do it as late in the day as possible. A bit of experience, and you'll learn how to do it in a way that minimises drifting.

To direct release? There is no one answer. If the cage has been in the package for 3 days, an experienced beek can direct release and get good results. For someone starting out, a possible problem is that many of these queens will have lost weight while caged and can fly, there is a potential for things to go wrong. If you are confident you can get the queen where you want it without giving it opportunity to fly, and it's been with the bees three days, then direct release.
If the caged queen has not been with the bees very long I would not direct release, so it depends on how you got your packages.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> PS if the day is warm we sprayed sugar water on the cage prior to shaking them out. And yes, Keith, we know you hate to see bees "shook", lol


And here I was just going to stay out of this dog fight.... seems like Harry has it well under control.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Last summer in one yard we had an almost empty nuc with a queen, but no appreciable brood (not enough bees), and a queenless colony with a reasonable population. Chris Baldwin was with us, and demonstrated opening up some honey (like a little pool), and covering the queen with the honey. They apparantly accepted the queen and the colony overwintered. ....heard of the same thing with vanilla....and even had a vet tell us she got her dogs to accept a kitten by covering it with "I can't believe it's not butter".

deknow


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

when I ever did those suicide combines I would syrup the (expletive) out of them with syrup and flavor of choice or HBH. Just used a clean (read new) 1 gallon sprayer. I like to use the same sprayer for swarms, so it gets more use that way.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

We shake in 800 packages in in two days. Most of my packages are only in the cages for a day or so, so I don't direct release the queens. Sorry Keith we do shake, because 600+ miles in two day driving from bee yard to bee yard. Can't afford to drive back around to pick cages up. I move bees not hives.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I would like to emphasize you will have some drifting except if you get them done fast late in the day. Be prepared to move hives around equalizing field forces untill you get them evened out over the next few days or trips out. I used to do all packages in one yard and only move the hives out to outyards after they were equalized and the queens were well extablished and laying.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

The Honey Householder said:


> We shake in 800 packages because 600+ miles from bee yard to bee yard. Can't afford :


Ron, I don't have bone to pick in this thread, but 600 miles to get rid of 800 packages.

Me thinks I would search for closer yards.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We direct release if the bees have been in the package at least 3 days. Shake 'em all out right then(Sorry Kieth, we do something much worse also, you don't want to know). Pick up the empty packages and cans right away. We have even been known to check on them in 5-7 days and start clipping queens. Never had a problem with drifting or queen acceptance. Been doing it "wrong" for a long time.

Crazy Roland


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We used to do 1,000+ yearly "back in the day". If the temps were warm we gave the bees a light spray of sugar water and then plugged the queen cage entrance with a small bit of granulated honey to keep her from running out and potentially flying and wedged the cage between two frames. When temps were cooler we just dumped the bees on the bottom board gently placed the frames in and then layed the opened queen cage between two of the frames. Yeah it could be a pain getting them back out later but it seemed to be the most reliable way of safely releasing her into the cluster. The biggest threat was always drifting when the weather was warm. Cool temps almost always guaranteed success. Queen losses were rare. If I were only doing a few I would definitely install them at night if the forecast was warm.


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

...Allen Dick has talked about dunking the package in water, then shaking the whole ball of bees. I've never done this, so I don't know what it actually looks like.

deknow


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## monrovi (Jan 22, 2012)

What distance between hives is sufficient to minimize drifting? Are we talking 3 ft or 20?


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## bigbill (Sep 27, 2009)

this is perfect i love all the imput / monrovi has a good question what about distance do they need to be separated or can they go on they're pallet locations ?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ramona said:


> ...Allen Dick has talked about dunking the package in water, then shaking the whole ball of bees. I've never done this, so I don't know what it actually looks like.


Yes that's a good point. My own experience is not so much with installing packages as making them up and selling them. However when we did install package bees, we laid the package on it's side and watered them with a watering can. Each package was then given a shake to ensure all bees were wet before dumping them out. Extreme? well maybe, but I've done them dry and drifting is far worse.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

WOW, dunking the package in water...... 

I am going to get some popcorn now.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

I'd never heard of dunking the package in water until reading it here at Beesource, and yeah, I thought it was kind of extreme, too. We have found giving them a good spray with thin sugar syrup prevents them flying when you install them. It certainly puts them in a better mood than a sudden swim. There might still be some drifting when they do first fly, but dumping them in water won't prevent that.
We weren't palletized when we were installing packages, they were either in outyards or a larger holding yard, normally about 2' apart. I'm sure this accounts for some drifting, which we would equalize as needed. Easier than moving every box. I don't see any reason pallets couldn't be used, just keep them from flying as much as possible on installation and realize there might be some evening out to do. Installing them at night might work too, but personally, hate working bees at night.
Sheri


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## dback (Jan 8, 2012)

monrovi said:


> Are we talking 3 ft or 20?


We're on pallets, but......20' is better then 3. Most of ours will be 8 − 10 feet min.


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## MTINAZ (Jan 15, 2010)

I did 100 last year. My cages did not have candy so they were direct released. I would pop the cork and put thumb over the hole then place cage down in frames. I did have some flyer's before I learned to put my thumb over. I tried leaving a few cages in the hive and letting the bees crawl out. Might work for 1 or 2 in the backyard but was a pain to go back through and shake all the bees out that did not leave and some hives started building comb. My dad has a saying the lazy man has the most work. Don't leave the boxes in. It sure felt like I just had to do it all twice.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ron, I don't have bone to pick in this thread, but 600 miles to get rid of 800 packages.
> 
> Me thinks I would search for closer yards.


Keith No Bones here!

Just don't want to put all my eggs in one basket. 

600 miles to shake isn't as bad as the 850 miles to pick them up and getting them back to shop. Just hopeing for colder weather to haul them next week.:thumbsup:


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I sure hope that 600 mile drive isnt 1 way. I guess you like to have your eggs spread out really nice like.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

The 850 miles is one way 1700 mile round trip to pick up and return to shop. The 600 mile is about 6-8 trips back and forth to bee yards to shop. Only take in 4 counties, an about 50 farms.opcorn:


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

BMAC said:


> Doesn't Ron Householder install a HUGE amount of packages each year in his operation? Ron do you have any advice here?


Sorry missed this post before posting my first posting. Really MB and Sheri did a go job, but I don't direct release my queen. I just poke a hole in the candy and slide the cage under frames on the bottom board. Then shake bees in and replace the 4 frames back in the hive. Takes about 2-3 min. per hives, and if its warm out have someone spraying the bees with syrup. Syrup always keeps them at home.:applause:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We run with 4-5 feet between pairs of hives. Yes, a little syrup to moisten the wings seems to make ALL parties happier.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I would also put a heavy emphasis on hiving them later in the evening. I know its hard to get alot done as the day is ending but I will hive 100 or so late after supper with not trouble. Just get everything set up before hand so all you have to do is shake bees. Helps to have someone closing up after you, and if you have help you will get more done for sure. Its nice when you can hive them on a cool day if it works out because you can hive all day!

You will have drifting regardless, just try to minimize it. Bad drifting will cause you alot of equalizing work,

I dont direct release, but I probably could. Ill let the queen sit in the cage till the next day when the bees are sitting on the comb around her calmed a bit. I figure alot of money is being dumped out into the boxes and whats one day longer in the cage. Also, that release round takes seconds per hive.

As for the dunking in water. Its probably done to stop drifting so he could hive bees during the better part of the day. It would slow them down for sure but I would hate doing it myself. Like I said there is alot of money sitting in the truck, why soak them and increase your death losses? 

I have filled frames full of syrup for package bees to feed on, and found that is the worst thing a guy can do. My thinking is to provide them with food but all it does is soak the bees it they cant clean up the edges rightaway and cause higher losses of sticky wet bees. Give them feed in a feeder close by and have them sit on a bit of honey. Thats the best way of doing it.

Here is the place I get my packages from. Different packageing then what your likely use to but all the same process. I think there is a vid some where within the pages...

www.bartelhoneyfarms.ca


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hi Ian I checked your site & saw a video of you taking honey off, your escape board was interesting but I couldn't see it properly, any chance of a pic? It's probably a little off topic here you may need to start a new thread.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

sure, ill start one in the equipment section


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

We shake ours in a building and leave them set in the dark for a couple of days to minimize drifting. We don't direct release the queens but use gumdrops or candy to let them out. Pull the cans give them a spray of light syrup and shake them into box.
Dunking a package of bees in a 5 gal. bucket of water is easier said than done. Don't ask me how I know but I have heard of that route before.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> If you are new to installing packages, the primary thing that can cost you a few failures is drifting. The bees get dumped out of the package, and have no idea where they are supposed to go. One of the hives get sorted and start fanning out scent pheremone, and nearby bees all drift to that hive.


Couple years ago I did 20 hives and had a huge drift issue. http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...yesterday-1-super-hive&highlight=eastsidebuzz now smaller entrances and later in the day helps.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ha Ha that was a great thread EastSideBuzz! 

I think some of those comments were correct, with the hives laid out the way they were it would be a virtual impossibility not to get major drift problems following a package install. Anyhow that thread should be required reading for any nubee about to install packages LOL! 

One easy thing a small beekeeper can do if you end up with one of those "megahives", rather than troll through it for the queen so you can remove bees, is swap it with the weakest hive in the yard. A few days later if it's still too many bees swap it with the next weakest hive in the yard.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> Ha Ha that was a great thread EastSideBuzz!
> 
> I think some of those comments were correct, with the hives laid out the way they were it would be a virtual impossibility not to get major drift problems following a package install. Anyhow that thread should be required reading for any nubee about to install packages LOL!


Yea that was an expensive package. We balanced them back out as best we could but, it never worked as we wanted. Probably going to do 100 this season. Did 50 last year and it it worked fine. I keep them farther apart nowadays. I also use 4 way pallets now and some vibrant colors on each one so they can tell which home is theirs later but, when you first shake them it is still a free for all for the fliers. Also shake later in the evening smaller entrances etc.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Finished shaking 800+ packages in two days. Temps was just right at 42-49 F. Glad that job is done now.:thumbsup:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Attaboy Householder. Keep busy, got those mouths to feed. Lucky you on the temperature. Did you beat the dandelions? 

Crazy ROland


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## monrovi (Jan 22, 2012)

That's a lot of packages. I can't imagine being reasponsible for that many hives. I worry about the half dozen I'm getting and getting those to produce for me


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Roland just made it. dandelion are in bloom now. Had a make few splits this week from the hives that made it this winter.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

For folks in California, direct release method could be problematic. FREQUENTLY, the packages we get are only ONE day old. I've had some that were less than 6hrs old. 

If you know that your package is 4 days old already, then fine... go ahead with direct release.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Commercial way to hive packages...
...one package at a time

Sorry could not resist being cheeky:shhhh:


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## bigbill (Sep 27, 2009)

honeyshack said:


> Commercial way to hive packages...
> ...one package at a time
> 
> Sorry could not resist being cheeky:shhhh:


always one in the bunch


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## bigbill (Sep 27, 2009)

*Re: commercial way for installing packages*

we had every thing setup ,took 100 extra boxes set on top comb pulled 1 frame put queen in comb dumped some bees on her. layed cage on side opening toward her it didn't take very long per box .put feeders on. had all openings sealed or reduced. preplanning was the only way to go with your input i had a clue what to expect.

i would like to thank you all for your input i appreciated each way you described i took parts and advise from several we direct released some ,put queen cage down below on some .well see which way works beter for us. i'll get some pictures up in a day or two thanks bill:applause:


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

*Re: commercial way for installing packages*

Would have liked to see that video before I received tube bees. I read up on releasing packages out of the box to make sure I knew how to do it and then they give me bees in a tube. I removed the corks and wow there was no candy behind the corks. They became direct release and the queens survived.


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## conifer (May 5, 2011)

*Re: commercial way for installing packages*

Here's a summary of our experience pouring packages for various commercial beekeepers last season - http://thehoneybeat.com/2011/04/shaking-all-over/

The key point is to have everything prepared in advance of the bees arrival, and have a plan b (& c) ready to go in the event of unforeseen circumstances. Like doc25, we were going to slow release the queens on a pallet of packages we were pouring this year, but we changed that to direct release once we saw that none of the queen cages had candy in them.


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