# Dee Lusby



## Michael Bush

She got tired of all the attacks by the treaters and just runs a list were the topic is only how not to treat rather than every conversation on how not to treat degenerating into why you have to...
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Organicbeekeepers/info

She will be at the 9th annual organic beekeepers mtg. in Feb.
http://www.treatmentfreebeekeeping.org/


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## DirtyLittleSecret

Shame. I've been reading up on Dee for the past month and gotta admit...she seems like a force of nature. Just my kind of person. Has really made me sit back and think.


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## Dan the bee guy

Thanks Mike I hope to get there one year!


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## beemandan

Michael Bush said:


> She got tired of all the attacks by the treaters


I love it. If people disagree with you....it's an 'attack'.


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## Michael Bush

I don't mind a disagreement. But when people of a like mind are having a discussion on how to accomplish something, it gets pretty old to hear the same old arguments from people who have no interest in it, on why it's impossible to do what you've been doing for the past decade and a half when you're trying to talk about doing it, not talk about why it's impossible to do what you're already doing for the 5,000th time...


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## beemandan

Michael Bush said:


> But when people of a like mind are having a discussion on how to accomplish something, it gets pretty old to hear the same old arguments from people who have no interest in it, on why it's impossible to do what you've been doing for the past decade and a half when you're trying to talk about doing it, not talk about why it's impossible to do what you're already doing for the 5,000th time...


I know exactly what you are talking about. Has happened to me countless times too.


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## beemandan

When people express controversial opinions in a public forum....and then take any challenge as persecution...those folks are probably wise to limit their opinions to places where they can't be disputed. On the other hand, people who hear those protected opinions would be wise to take them with a grain of salt.


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## e3eridani

Yes, people who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. 

George Bernard Shaw


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## Harley Craig

beemandan said:


> When people express controversial opinions in a public forum....and then take any challenge as persecution...those folks are probably wise to limit their opinions to places where they can't be disputed. On the other hand, people who hear those protected opinions would be wise to take them with a grain of salt.


 going to places like the TF forum or Treatmentfree facebook page and asking how to treat this or that, or telling them their way is wrong in those venues is equivalent to going to a vegan site and asking for veal recipies, and when they get mad tell them they are wrong for not eating meat. People go to those places to get away from that crap. If people want to bash this or that method in an open forum, so be it.


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## Rader Sidetrack

>> equivalent to going to a vegan site and asking for [HIGHLIGHT] veil recipies [/HIGHLIGHT]


Veil recipes??  You mean like this one? ... http://www.klamathbeekeepers.org/Be...uipment/making_your_own_veil_on_a_budget.html

Yum!


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## beemandan

Harley Craig said:


> going to places like the TF forum or Treatmentfree facebook page and asking how to treat this or that, or telling them their way is wrong in those venues


I've never seen Dee Lusby post in the tf forum. 
Truthfully, in the past few years the tf forum has been pretty civil....from everything I've seen. About the only times in recent memory that I've seen it get cranked up is when Sol would post some anti treatment rhetoric and expect to be ignored.
Now...on the other hand....in the general beekeeping forums, it isn't uncommon for someone to ask about various treatments and get anti treatment comments. 

So Harley....have you seen any tf forum posts by Dee?


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## Harley Craig

nope I believe she was gone before I arrived on scene here and it was my understanding that one of the reasons it was created in the first place was so folks could talk about TF beekeeping in a " safe" environment so they wouldn't feel pushed out like she did. ( not necessarily her specifically but people in general) As far as non- treaters talking about their methods in open forums, I already stated that anything goes, that is the proper place for debates to take place so people can flesh out ideas they may or may not want to adopt. If they chose to adopt a TF method there should be some place for them to learn about it without being made to feel stupid for wanting to go that approach don't you think?


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## Harley Craig

Rader Sidetrack said:


> >> equivalent to going to a vegan site and asking for [HIGHLIGHT] veil recipies [/HIGHLIGHT]
> 
> 
> Veil recipes??  You mean like this one? ... http://www.klamathbeekeepers.org/Be...uipment/making_your_own_veil_on_a_budget.html
> 
> Yum!


smart alec! LOL you got me, I type veil a lot more than I type veal .....muscle memory....yeah that's it LOL


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## beemandan

Harley Craig said:


> If they chose to adopt a TF method there should be some place for them to learn about it without being made to feel stupid for wanting to go that approach don't you think?


I think that is the idea of the tf forum. And, from what I've seen, when it is used in that context it stays civil. On the other hand when folks go there simply to bash those who treat and believe they should go unchallenged...to my thinking that is abuse of the forum.
Don't you think?


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## jim lyon

I think you would be hard pressed to find an example of anyone being "attacked" on the TF forum for advocating going treatment free. Seems to me it's been pretty civil on here since hmmmmmm well for quite awhile.


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## Harley Craig

beemandan said:


> I think that is the idea of the tf forum. And, from what I've seen, when it is used in that context it stays civil. On the other hand when folks go there simply to bash those who treat and believe they should go unchallenged...to my thinking that is abuse of the forum.
> Don't you think?



if it was truly a bash then yes I would agree, but I didn't see it, so I can't comment on what was said. However, if you are talking about making general comments like " treating bees breeds weaker bees and stronger mites and perpetuates the problem" then I don't see that as a bash at all, it's the fundamental principal of being TF.


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## beemandan

Harley Craig said:


> if you are talking about making general comments like " treating bees breeds weaker bees and stronger mites and perpetuates the problem"


Perfect example. To my thinking this isn't about how to become a successful tf beekeeper. This is a clear case of treatment beekeeper bashing. It may be your opinion but it is only that...your opinion. And it is controversial and isn't shared by everyone. If you need to express an opinion like that, it should be done in an unprotected forum where it can be challenged. To post something like that in the tf forum and expect it to be protected is an abuse of the forum...in my opinion.


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## beemandan

PS Harley...you and I are having a disagreement and it seems perfectly civil to me. Does it to you as well?
This is, in my opinion, how it should be.


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## Harley Craig

beemandan said:


> To post something like that in the tf forum and expect it to be protected is an abuse of the forum...in my opinion.



It's single handily the biggest reason the forum exists. Some may not want to want to treat so they can be " organic" but if that is the case why wouldn't they just use organic treatments? They see a cycle that they feel needs broken, and it's certainly not worse than calling TF folks " mite farmers" like I saw in a post recently.


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## Harley Craig

beemandan said:


> PS Harley...you and I are having a disagreement and it seems perfectly civil to me. Does it to you as well?
> This is, in my opinion, how it should be.


I agree 100% I know my posts may come off as angry, but it's totally not the case. I have a completely open mind. When people go to the TF facebook page and ask questions that don't jive with our mission I'll even point them in the right direction.


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## Harley Craig

I have a challenge for anyone who doesn't feel there is a real bias against TF beekeepers. Go to any random general discussion beekeeping FB page and pretend you are a TF beek. Ask honest questions and don't bash anyone and then tell me that someone didn't try to make you feel stupid for your beliefs.


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## beemandan

Harley Craig said:


> it's certainly not worse than calling TF folks " mite farmers" like I saw in a post recently.


Was the comment about tf folks being 'mite farmers' in a forum where a debate wasn't allowed? Did it go unchallenged? Should conventional treatment beekeepers have a forum where they can express these sorts of opinions without dispute?


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## Fusion_power

I think you are mixing concepts pretty heavily. There is a huge contingent of beekeepers who treat. There is a small but growing minority of beekeepers who don't treat. There are a lot of newbee beekeepers who come in with unreasonable expectations about being able to go treatment free without having done due diligence first. I am unconcerned about the treated/untreated crowd, but the newbees need a place to get reliable guidance to managing their bees so they don't get discouraged. There is a recent post in the main bee forum discussing a guy's losses that are approaching $2000 yet he has only one surviving healthy hive and one dink. We should go out of our way to provide information that helps avoid this type situation.

As for me, I'm a mite farmer, just ask any of the treat-em-early treat-em-often crowd!


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## Harley Craig

beemandan said:


> Was the comment about tf folks being 'mite farmers' in a forum where a debate wasn't allowed? Did it go unchallenged? Should conventional treatment beekeepers have a forum where they can express these sorts of opinions without dispute?



it went largely unchallenged because who it came from ( I believe) He is a very respected member here and I think nobody wanted to wiz him off......JMO...... I can't say that there should or their shouldn't be that forum, that would be Barry's call, but I feel it's needed about as much as a white version of the NAACP. , What I can tell you is that if there was one, I wouldn't go there and tell them they are wrong and their weak bees are diluting my survivor genetics.


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## beemandan

Harley Craig said:


> Go to any random general discussion beekeeping FB page and pretend you are a TF beek. Ask honest questions and don't bash anyone and then tell me that someone didn't try to make you feel stupid for your beliefs.


Or...go to the yahoo organic beekeeping forum or the facebook treatment free forum and ask a question about a treatment...and see if there isn't some bias. Actually....they won't make you feel stupid....your posts just won't ever appear.
There's plenty of bias on both sides Harley. And whichever side we are on, we feel the brunt of the opposition. It is a pretty natural thing. If we believe we are persecuted because of it....that's in our own heads.
Sorry...got to go. I'll check back in a couple of hours. Interesting dialog...in my opinion.


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## Harley Craig

Fusion_power said:


> I think you are mixing concepts pretty heavily. There is a huge contingent of beekeepers who treat. There is a small but growing minority of beekeepers who don't treat. There are a lot of newbee beekeepers who come in with unreasonable expectations about being able to go treatment free without having done due diligence first. I am unconcerned about the treated/untreated crowd, but the newbees need a place to get reliable guidance to managing their bees so they don't get discouraged. There is a recent post in the main bee forum discussing a guy's losses that are approaching $2000 yet he has only one surviving healthy hive and one dink. We should go out of our way to provide information that helps avoid this type situation.
> 
> As for me, I'm a mite farmer, just ask any of the treat-em-early treat-em-often crowd!




I agree with this 100%. I see new people struggling being TF heck I'm not even out of the woods in my operation, and I will tell everyone of them, that you can't take bees that have depended on treatments for decades and just turn them loose in your pasture and expect good results.


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## Michael Bush

I would have no objections to a "treatment forum" where you discuss nothing but how to treat. I would happily stay away.


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## JRG13

But Harley, you can hardly expect to just go find swarms or feral hives or even buy bees from 'treatment free' operations and accomplish the same thing either, but the perception is otherwise a lot of the time from these newbies or people who have somehow found the niche in their area. I've been at it 4 years now, and I'm betting I've spent more $$ than most beeks on genetics or different strains of bees looking for resistance and I haven't seen anything I would come out and tell other's that it's the absolute route to take to succeed at being treatment free, at least in my area. See what I had to do there though? I had to throw in that geographical caveat, but most people speak in absolutes, which is a mistake, in my opinion. And honestly, when I see posts on breeding weaker bees and stuff with treatments, it's clearly obvious that people making those statements and those blindly supporting it know very little about genetics, populations dynamics, and basic evolution and ecology...


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## sqkcrk

Michael Bush said:


> I would have no objections to a "treatment forum" where you discuss nothing but how to treat. I would happily stay away.


Isn't that pretty much every forum other than Treatment Free Forum?


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## RudyT

I hope TF learnings and discussions will always be available to us who aren't there -- maybe we'll get there, but even if not it is good to know what folks are thinking.


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## Harley Craig

JRG13 said:


> But Harley, you can hardly expect to just go find swarms or feral hives or even buy bees from 'treatment free' operations and accomplish the same thing either, but the perception is otherwise a lot of the time from these newbies or people who have somehow found the niche in their area. I've been at it 4 years now, and I'm betting I've spent more $$ than most beeks on genetics or different strains of bees looking for resistance and I haven't seen anything I would come out and tell other's that it's the absolute route to take to succeed at being treatment free, at least in my area. See what I had to do there though? I had to throw in that geographical caveat, but most people speak in absolutes, which is a mistake, in my opinion. And honestly, when I see posts on breeding weaker bees and stuff with treatments, it's clearly obvious that people making those statements and those blindly supporting it know very little about genetics, populations dynamics, and basic evolution and ecology...


I totally get that and that is why I tell folks that they need to find local beeks that don't treat to get their bees from and if they have to resort to buying packages, Nucs etc outside there area they are going to have to help them along. One question though how many of those genetics did you prop up when you thought they would fail? 

My best bees had the worst case of DWV 2 yrs ago I ever saw everything I knew about bees said they would die without treatments but I was willing to lose them and low and behold it went away on its own and they were one of my best producers last yr. TF is a journey not a destination nobody treatment free or not can expect colonies to last forever.


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## jim lyon

The hottest thread on the tf forum the past week was titled "treatments are a dead end". A bit inflammatory I thought, yet nevertheless there seemed to be a well reasoned and civil discussion between both tf and non tf beekeepers. I can't help but wonder how it might go if someone started a thread on the general forum with the equally inflammatory title of "treatment free is a dead end". 
I think the bottom line on a forum like this is if you are willing to be civil and listen to opposing viewpoints then the resulting free exchange of information makes everyone a winner. If your tone is combative and your beliefs are just too rigid to even consider the possibility you might be wrong then Its probably better for everyone if you just move along and get in a situation where you are surrounded only by people you agree with. Nothing wrong with that either and I wish Dee the best.


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## JRG13

I've never seen any hive recover here. I don't see a huge influx of DWV, what we see is severe PMS and dwindling of hives to below viable thresholds in August-September. Not to say I don't see an increase in DWV as mites build up, but it manifests more into just plain dead brood, not bees with deformed wings. If you try to prop them up now, the cold in November-December finishes them off. Not to say you can't have a few dinks that survive, but they will always need a frame of brood and bees come spring to make it, and they never show any improvement year to year, basically, I know they'll just be crashing again due to mites come fall again which makes sense on a genetic level if they haven't requeened themselves. Recovery instances can be explained though in a shift of genetic make up in the worker population due to different drone donors, just that I've never seen it. I had a few promising hives this year, which I left treatment free, it was a mistake I came to find out Monday as all were empty boxes. Some would claim that I weeded out the crap, but this is untrue, they were markedly better than most of the other bees I had, they were able to go into late fall with decent populations and stores while the truly susceptible lines were dead months before, but because I didn't help prop them up a little so I could improve upon the line, I no longer have them to work with, and now I've lost some of the diversity I was gaining in screening all the different genetics I've been looking at. That being said, I couldn't be more happier in seeing TF folks succeeding, it's just the blind chest beating about how it's the absolute way to keep bees that just shows blind ignorance of the whole picture at hand.


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## Harley Craig

If you went into winter with a decent amount of young fat bees then it wasn't mites that killed them, mite problems occur in late Aug -sept here and if they don't raise enough then you go in with a decent amount of old bees and that is a sure sign of failure. My bees tend to shut down the second the flow starts dwindling like a switch and that first round when they start back up gets awful spotty but it usually clears up on its own, if it doesn't it dies or if I have a couple like that then I combine them and the queen gets offed in the spring


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## Dominic

I had nucs go hopelessly queenless, start having laying workers, and then a whole bunch of drones with deformed wings. I put my own queen cells in, and left them alone for the rest of the season, no treatment. By Fall, they filled most of a deep, had great brood patterns, stores, and no signs of DWV nor PMS. They had recovered. Treated them with OAV anyways once brood rearing shut down (any heavy mite load would be the result of the mess they inherited, and not the fruit of their own poor genetics, so no reason to overwinter them untreated), but they went from less than nothing (handful of workers, lots of diseased drones), to being acceptably strong to overwinter them, with no more treatment than perhaps shaking the frames full of diseased drones away, and culling the drone brood. That took a few months, though, and happened early enough for them to have time to recover before winter. Still, didn't have to pay attention to them at all for the season, and I end up with a decent colony to overwinter, sure is better than culling them, doing an intensive treatment program to monitor their recovery, or merging them with others and risking to propagate a high virus load to otherwise healthy colonies.

That being said, the scenario I described is not at all sick hives spontaneously recovering. They probably only got so sick because of the queenlessness, and I did mechanically get rid of most of the infestation, but just to say that a colony severely affected by DWV isn't necessarily doomed to crash unless chemicals are put in.


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## Michael Bush

>Isn't that pretty much every forum other than Treatment Free Forum?

The point is that if someone wants to discuss what the mixing directions are for Fumidil, that is not a discussion that needs to be interrupted by someone saying how bad an idea it is to treat. The discussion is HOW, not whether or not to. Right now someone can pipe up with an anti treatment statement which will detract from the point of the discussion. If there was a place to discuss treatments that did not allow for arguing against treatments, I would find that refreshing, not restricting. There is no reason to interject a treatment free discussion into a thread on how to treat. Now if someone wants to ask if whether treating with Fumidil is a good idea or not, talking about not treating may be appropriate. My point is a forum on HOW to treat could be similar to the treatment free forum which is a forum on how NOT to treat. My current experience on the treatment free forum is that it still rapidly degenerates into why it's impossible and how it can't work rather than how to do it. So probably it wouldn't work anyway in the other direction (how to treat) either.


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## Oldtimer

Michael Bush said:


> The point is that if someone wants to discuss what the mixing directions are for Fumidil, that is not a discussion that needs to be interrupted by someone saying how bad an idea it is to treat.


But somebody would.


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## Oldtimer

Harley Craig said:


> I have a challenge for anyone who doesn't feel there is a real bias against TF beekeepers. Go to any random general discussion beekeeping FB page and pretend you are a TF beek. Ask honest questions and don't bash anyone and then tell me that someone didn't try to make you feel stupid for your beliefs.


Actually you are correct, many a time this will happen to excess. 

But if I went to the TF facebook page and talked treatment, whoa! It just demonstrates human nature, that's all.

Things have been pretty polite on this TF forum since the old mod took his anger management issues to the facebook page he created, and people vent there instead of here. If you go to that page it is pretty mind blowing the hatred and vitriol that is poured out against treaters, and I mean CONSTANTLY. Probably 1/2 what is said is some kind of attack on the other group, rather than any sensible discussion how to be treatment free.

It's very sad to read, but the positive is that nothing as bad as that goes on here, from either side. It is all over there. Probably a good thing for this forum.


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## Michael Bush

>But somebody would.

My point exactly.


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## Ian

I've seen vid of her hives, all a while listening to "oh so gentle"... location speaks volumes
Be civil all you want, those bees here are dead. 
Different Beekeepers different expectations


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## Oldtimer

LOL.  "They're only attacking the camera they're only attacking the camera".

Take your veil off then.


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## Ian

Does my questioning of the "story" classify as an attack ? . ... It will if I take off the veil !


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## Harley Craig

Oldtimer said:


> Actually you are correct, many a time this will happen to excess.
> 
> But if I went to the TF facebook page and talked treatment, whoa! It just demonstrates human nature, that's all.
> 
> .


Well there is only one TF Facebook page that I'm aware of and honestly we are very civil when people ask about treatments. We politely tell them that its not a topic for that page, the only time it ever really gets heated is when they then decide to argue with us afterwords


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## Oldtimer

Hmm you are probably right Harley. I've seen some pretty crazy stuff there that would definitely have been moderated out of existence here. But on thinking about it, it was more when the person chose to argue, which is probably not appropriate over there.

Also it was mostly when the page was new and some of the folks were feeling hurt and raw at that time, which has hopefully lessened now.

Most of the arguing lately is between TF folks themselves, for example that guy that quit his membership a few days ago when told planting herbs such as thyme around hives to treat them was wrong. There was quite a bit of upset in that thread, and not a treater in sight LOL.


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## Dominic

Harley Craig said:


> Well there is only one TF Facebook page that I'm aware of and honestly we are very civil when people ask about treatments. We politely tell them that its not a topic for that page, the only time it ever really gets heated is when they then decide to argue with us afterwords


There are some people there with axes to grind...


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## Michael Palmer

Harley Craig said:


> We politely tell them that its not a topic for that page, the only time it ever really gets heated is when they then decide to argue with us afterwords


Them and Us...sad.


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## Barry

Harley Craig said:


> If you went into winter with a decent amount of young fat bees then it wasn't mites that killed them, mite problems occur in late Aug -sept here and if they don't raise enough then you go in with a decent amount of old bees and that is a sure sign of failure.


Uh, JRG13 is in Sacramento, California.


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## mbevanz

JRG13 couldn't have explained it better!


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## Harley Craig

Michael Palmer said:


> Them and Us...sad.


how else should I differentiate between the two groups of people?


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## RayMarler

JRG13 said:


> ...That being said, I couldn't be more happier in seeing TF folks succeeding, it's just the blind chest beating about how it's the absolute way to keep bees that just shows blind ignorance of the whole picture at hand.





Harley Craig said:


> If you went into winter with a decent amount of young fat bees then it wasn't mites that killed them, mite problems occur in late Aug -sept here and if they don't raise enough then you go in with a decent amount of old bees and that is a sure sign of failure...


Craig,

I happen to know that JRG feeds pollen sub in the form of Nutra-Bee and in no way shape or form are his hives going into winter without young fat bees. It takes much more than just some young fat bees going into winter for a hive to survive in good shape come spring. I think you need to re-read what JRG13 has written more closely.


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## Harley Craig

RayMarler said:


> Craig,
> 
> I happen to know that JRG feeds pollen sub in the form of Nutra-Bee and in no way shape or form are his hives going into winter without young fat bees. It takes much more than just some young fat bees going into winter for a hive to survive in good shape come spring. I think you need to re-read what JRG13 has written more closely.


I still stand by what I said, but maybe I should have explained it further. I don't think it was the mites that killed them, I think it was intolerance to the viruses the mites spread. Now one could say that if they died from the viruses then it was the mites fault, but if all bees have mites and some survive in- spite of the mites then is it? In other words I would be one of those folks that think it was weeding out bad genetics. He compares them to " truly susceptible bees which died out months earlier" as his basis for good canidates for survivor stock. You can compare a volkswagon jetta to a gremlin and think you have a really great car, untill you try comparing it against a mercedes. 

With that being said, please don't think that I mean to insinuate that TF stock is superior to reg commercial stock, they aren't and in most cases they are inferior in most ways such as gentleness, and honey production, so I completely understand why people treat, especially those making a living at it, Heck I may have to throw in the towel and treat myself some day who knows. But what I do know that works in my area ( at least for now) based off others doing it here and what I'm starting to see is follow these 3 rules ...1 stay away from packages from southern bees, 2 Go into winter with more than you need, 3 replace the ones you lose with your oldest survivors that have the traits you like. Everyone that I know of that does that here gets by fine without treatments.


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## Harley Craig

edit: dupe post


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## JRG13

I hear ya Harley, I've thought about the issue a great deal and have wondered, what do people actually see, mite resistance or viral resistance and ideally both. Also, I never said they'd be good treatment free stock, the more promising lines would've been great bees for a single fall treatment program or even mid summer. It's just a shame to not be able to improve upon them in their tolerance, if they actually showed any that is. What I do see trending over here, is hives starting to succumb earlier in the season, perhaps it has something to do with our increasing drought conditions over the last few years where the bees may cut back on drone brood earlier but that's just speculation at this point. It could be more to the point as you mentioned, keeping viral loads in check which would mean early summer treatments here from what I've been seeing, waiting til fall is too late now.


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## Michael Palmer

Harley Craig said:


> how else should I differentiate between the two groups of people?


We?


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## crofter

From one area to another the recipe for being treatment free seems in need of being made from different bee properties. There can be the korean strain of mite in one area and the japanese strain in another with different implications. It seems like quite a bit of informed discussion about there being more and less lethal forms of DWV as well. The long and well referenced article Dominic linked to, assessing some of the well known examples of mite tolerance credited quite different mechanisms, and not a lot of common denominators. Small and rather unproductive colonies and swarming was the most commonly observed. Another, as in the Arnot forest example, seemed dependent on a very dispersed colony location. Mite tolerance certainly is not a slam dunk certainty wherever it is tried. Many areas where it is eagerly pursued have absolutely dismal success rates. At least admit that this is the case and not berate them for lack of conviction or skill. That just fosters the same divisiveness that is being lamented.


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## Harley Craig

JRG13 said:


> I hear ya Harley, I've thought about the issue a great deal and have wondered, what do people actually see, mite resistance or viral resistance and ideally both. Also, I never said they'd be good treatment free stock, the more promising lines would've been great bees for a single fall treatment program or even mid summer. It's just a shame to not be able to improve upon them in their tolerance, if they actually showed any that is. What I do see trending over here, is hives starting to succumb earlier in the season, perhaps it has something to do with our increasing drought conditions over the last few years where the bees may cut back on drone brood earlier but that's just speculation at this point. It could be more to the point as you mentioned, keeping viral loads in check which would mean early summer treatments here from what I've been seeing, waiting til fall is too late now.



glad you understood what I was saying and we could discuss it civilly, seems like some folks had a problem with what I was saying.


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## Harley Craig

Michael Palmer said:


> We?


 That makes no sense . There is no we, when I'm talking about those who successfully keep them without treatments, and those who come to a TF page to tell them it can't be done.


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## Harley Craig

crofter said:


> At least admit that this is the case and not berate them for lack of conviction or skill. That just fosters the same divisiveness that is being lamented.



I have never denied that there are probably areas where it would be next to impossible to find and or keep survivor stock. I think OT has a pretty good argument for his area why it doesn't work. What gets old is people telling me it wont work, when there are many others before me in my area who are and have been doing it for quite some time.


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## Barry

Harley Craig said:


> nope I believe she was gone before I arrived on scene here and it was my understanding that one of the reasons it was created in the first place was so folks could talk about TF beekeeping in a " safe" environment so they wouldn't feel pushed out like she did.


Harley, this forum started out as Biological Beekeeping. It was a direct extension of the Biological Beekeeping group I started on Yahoo a couple of years before (around 1999) after I shut it down. I invited Dee to be part of the forum. She participated early on (as you'll see in the archives) but because she has a very narrow interpretation of TF, she moved on and started her own "organic" group when discussion here wandered outside her boundaries. I wasn't comfortable holding to the strict line she was holding to. I think there is wisdom and value in allowing opposing views to be shared in these discussions.

She wasn't pushed out. She needed a group where she could control what was discussed. She has that now and those that enjoy that setting are part of it. I try to offer a forum here where it's not so protected against challenging thought.


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## Fusion_power

> I try to offer a forum here where it not so protected against challenging thought.



By and large, you succeed. There is still a lot of controversy over the treatment/no treatment paradigm. Fortunately, it rarely boils over.


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## Harley Craig

Barry said:


> Harley, this forum started out as Biological Beekeeping. It was a direct extension of the Biological Beekeeping group I started on Yahoo a couple of years before (around 1999) after I shut it down. I invited Dee to be part of the forum. She participated early on (as you'll see in the archives) but because she has a very narrow interpretation of TF, she moved on and started her own "organic" group when discussion here wandered outside her boundaries. I wasn't comfortable holding to the strict line she was holding to. I think there is wisdom and value in allowing opposing views to be shared in these discussions.
> 
> She wasn't pushed out. She needed a group where she could control what was discussed. She has that now and those that enjoy that setting are part of it. I try to offer a forum here where it's not so protected against challenging thought.


thanks for the clerification.


----------



## beepro

So Dee is no longer here.
What about Joseph Clemens?
Is he retired from beekeeping or away from this forum just like Dee Lusby also?
I missed our discussion much.

After losing some hives to the mites on my 3rd year of beekeeping I know that
we have the most deadly mite strains here. So I slow down to study them more over
the summer. Catching the free running mites with a small sharp razor blade is tiresome
to say the least. They pretend to be non threatening but there is a darker side to them that
I found out later on. It maybe be as well that we have the most virulent strains here in our backyard.
Even the AHB bees cannot stand their attack. Then I decided to treat when needed with my homemade oav gadget under
the hive. It is sufficient to keep the mites at bay through the yearly summer dearth when the queens
had shut down. Some mites did carry over when the queens resumed brooding in the Autumn flow.
The mites are still inside the hives but in lower population now. The DWV is still there but not
that many to post a threat on a recent hive check. I figured that rather than buying the
new queens every year why not use the local genetics. So I started selecting and grafting all year long.
This year I finally have the bees without losing them to the mites on their expansion phase. The question is
how do you keep your bees alive without losing the valuable genetics that you paid so much for?
Surely there must be a mechanism for the bees to keep the mites in check somewhere. Along the line of
making some new Autumn queens I also learn a few things about the queen's genetic expression in relationship
to the mites. Of course, there are other important factors at play that a beekeeper should not ignore also.
Within your own locality there are many bee secrets that are hidden within the hives. 
Have you take a closer look at them yet? Developing a plan that works and able to duplicate it year after year will ensure that you have bees to play with from now on. A wild year for sure though I have learned a lot both about the mites and bees. And never
under estimate the power of exponential growth E^x either. 


Local mutt queen in expansion mode now:


----------



## Dave Burrup

I too have wondered what happened to Joseph Clemons.


----------



## susanrudnicki

Mr beemandan---Dee does not have the time to go flitting around every TF or any other kind of forum just to put her opinion out there. If I were wanting to discuss my Chevy on a Ford Mustang forum, I would expect to be corrected for violating the precepts of the site. I see folks getting annoyed and whiney when beeks on the TF forum try to guide them to READ the description and definition at the very top of the site BEFORE asking "how we deal with the mites" A lot of folks these days are very impulsive, reading almost nothing with full comprehension or attention, and putting up posts that are so inarticulate and truncated it is often impossible to tell what they are asking. They have a responsibility to read the guidelines for the discussions of topics on the site when it is clearly labeled "treatment free". Your effort to define "any challenge as persecution" is not a honest assessment of the situation----


----------



## Clayton Huestis

Starting to think this thread has strayed off its original topic.......


----------



## Michael Palmer

Dave Burrup said:


> I too have wondered what happened to Joseph Clemons.


Last post was on 11/7/2014


----------



## susanrudnicki

If we're talking about Dee Lusby, the original topic, I would say she would concur that entertaining notions of treatments on a TF forum, such as is her ONLY interest, is spot on as the topic.


----------



## beemandan

susanrudnicki said:


> Mr beemandan---Dee does not have the time to go flitting around every TF or any other kind of forum just to put her opinion out there.


 Thanks for the update on Dee. So....it's a lack of time not 'attacks' as another poster stated.



susanrudnicki said:


> A lot of folks these days are very impulsive, reading almost nothing with full comprehension or attention


Impulsive reading indeed. 



susanrudnicki said:


> Your effort to define "any challenge as persecution" is not a honest assessment of the situation----


My statement was 'I love it. If people disagree with you....it's an 'attack'.'

My signature line, on the other hand, is not particularly related to this thread.


----------



## susanrudnicki

The last time I was at her apiary and conference, last Feb, here was the situation. She is increasingly frustrated by a bad hip, she has 700 hives in some of the more extreme habitat in the US, many of them many miles apart on washboard dirt roads, she works alone a good deal of the time. Yet, she responds to most of the posts to her site and puts on the perennial Org.TF conference at the YMCA.


----------



## JacobWustner

Hello Everyone!
I joined Dee Lusby's email group a couple of years ago, and I am so glad that I did. She is a very intelligent beekeeper with tons of knowledge and experience. I have not met her yet, but just reading her posts for the last two years I feel like I know her very well. It is sad she left bee source, but I can see why she did. Lots of diversions here and no real place to keep the naysayers out. 
She has a lot to say, and is fighting for her beliefs, so it makes sense she moderates her own group now. And if you want to learn more about her ways, I would say join the email list. I see many people on here that I know because of her, which is awesome!

I like to say that if you are going to do something, then grab onto it with both hands. Dee's strict rules for managing treatment free are her school of thought. And if you want to learn it, take it seriously. There are many people who are keeping bees and are not doing a great job, whether they treat or not. Not many teachers have a complete protocol for successful treatment free beekeeping. She does provide this, and whether or not you think it works is kind of unimportant unless you actually try it whole-heartedly. 

But I feel that talking about treatment free beekeeping should not have to always digress into the question of why. Or maybe it does, I don't know. If people had a forum to keep people out that talk about treatment free, I feel like that would only be natural. And the same for the people who want to keep the beekeepers who talk about treatments out. Obviously this group has a moderator who makes sure that people who want to use treatments and substitutes can call themselves treatment free and post here. This makes it vulnerable to people taking their discussion elsewhere, which is fine and seems to be what has happened here. It also might be very confusing for beginning beekeepers who want to know what treatment free is.


----------



## Oldtimer

No need for a "treater" forum that keeps treatment free beekeepers out LOL us treaters are more gregarious than that. 

Also there is much discussions in the other forums that TF beekeepers can benefit from joining in the discussions, things like raising queen cells, how to build a hive, catching swarms, harvesting methods, making splits, when to super, just general beekeeping I guess, there's not much that divides us.


----------



## beemandan

JacobWustner said:


> Hello Everyone!


Welcome. 
I hope you discover that everything Dee says turns out to be true for you.
I tried to follow her recommendations some years ago. It did not work out for me. 
I hope you will keep an open mind.
Good luck


----------



## JacobWustner

beemandan said:


> Welcome.
> I hope you discover that everything Dee says turns out to be true for you.
> I tried to follow her recommendations some years ago. It did not work out for me.
> I hope you will keep an open mind.
> Good luck


Hi Dan!

I would like to think that I always try to keep and open mind, but when it comes to agriculture, I kind of shut out convention. I grew up in a conventional agricultural world, and I have a strong conviction against it. Hence my permaculture approach. Through following Dee, I found that I already agreed with 90% of what she said about commercial beekeeping because I grew up with it and recognized it. The few things I am unsure of, I don't really care whether they turn out to be true or not. I still stand behind her. Until I keep 4.9 mm bees for a few years, I won't feel confident saying that was the key that unlocked the door. But I still am going to try it, year after year. 

What were her recommendations that you followed and how long did you try it for?


----------



## Oldtimer

Well I'm not Dan but for me I tried her recommendations for 2 years.

Some of her stuff I felt may be unnecessary or extraneous, but to be faithful I did it all exactly, whether I agreed or understood or whatever I followed by the book. The only thing that I could not make the same was the location and perhaps the bee strain.


----------



## JacobWustner

Oldtimer said:


> Well I'm not Dan but for me I tried her recommendations for 2 years.
> 
> Some of her stuff I felt may be unnecessary or extraneous, but to be faithful I did it all exactly, whether I agreed or understood or whatever I followed by the book. The only thing that I could not make the same was the location and perhaps the bee strain.


So you had bees with brood size 4.9 or smaller for two whole seasons? And did you open mate your queens? Was it near other beekeeper's yards? I would think there are feral honey bees where you are. Did you catch any swarms? I have so many questions. Can you explain what you did do?


----------



## Oldtimer

Yes to all. Even sourced treatment free wax to make the small cell foundation from. Like I said, did it faithfully and exactly.

How's the video sales coming along?


----------



## JRG13

Honestly, I don't really get her approach to the staunchness of her philosophy, but maybe that's just me.


----------



## JacobWustner

Oldtimer said:


> Yes to all. Even sourced treatment free wax to make the small cell foundation from. Like I said, did it faithfully and exactly.
> 
> How's the video sales coming along?


Hey Old Timer! So you have the 4.9 mm combs still? Do you still use them in your hives or did you sell them? I think you may need to go smaller if you are closer to the equator. Dee recommends going down smaller if you are closer to the equator.

Video sales are slow, but not many people know me yet. I'm sure that will change over time as I get my name out there more and people start realizing I am the real deal. Young maybe, but real. My class has lots of time spent in the bees, so it is great for the beginner who is scared of working their hives. Or it would be great for someone who wants to learn more about how to keep bees without treatments. I'm not an expert at treatment free, but I know beekeeping pretty well since I grew up in it.

I am still curious though on why you think Dee's approach didn't work for you. You said it may be your locality or maybe you couldn't get good genetics. Do you think those were obstacles? If so, why do yo think so? Where do you get your queens from now? 

I feel like 2 years is not enough to transition to treatment free. For most people that have done it, they say it takes at least 5 years. Especially if you are not starting off fresh and are trying to make the transition from conventional to treatment free. In an area with lots of beekeepers, you may have to be more thoughtful and diligent about breeding your queens. And it may take a longer period of time. Personally I like to see my queens last 3-5 years, and if they didn't make it then they weren't good stock to begin with. At least that is my opinion.

And I admire Dee Lusby's philosophy. She also grew up in the bees, taught by her strict german father, so I understand why she is so strict. It is the same reason we have standards for organic food production. If people were allowed to stretch the rules or use prohibited substances, then it completely defeats the purpose of having standards. I like standards for food production and for beekeeping. The current standards for organic food production and for organic honey production are pretty compromised in my opinion.

Telling people we are feeding the world by using poisons to grow food is complete nonsense and an outright lie. But it keeps the pesticide farmers believing what they do is okay, and keeps the masses misinformed on the reality of the crisis we are facing in food production. Do I need to go on? I can.


----------



## Oldtimer

JacobWustner said:


> I am still curious though on why you think Dee's approach didn't work for you.


'Since I didn't say her approach didn't work for me it's interesting you assumed that LOL, however you are correct it didn't.



JacobWustner said:


> I feel like 2 years is not enough to transition to treatment free. For most people that have done it, they say it takes at least 5 years.


I would have done it 5 years if any of them had lived that long. 100% dead in 2 years kinda ended the program.




JacobWustner said:


> Personally I like to see my queens last 3-5 years, and if they didn't make it then they weren't good stock to begin with.


If mine do 2 good years I am pleased enough.



JacobWustner said:


> I admire Dee Lusby's philosophy. She also grew up in the bees, taught by her strict german father, so I understand why she is so strict.


I like Dee too, just because she is a tough old lady and unafraid to take on the world. But liking someone does not alone always compel me to accept every word that drips from their mouth as gospel truth. Dee, I think, knows how to keep her bees, in her area.


----------



## Fusion_power

Jacob, your comments are a tad off base. OT is a semi-retired commercial beekeeper and queen breeder in New Zealand. He has forgotten more about bees and beekeeping than you yet know. NZ bees have not had the extreme stress from 25 years of varroa mites like ours have had. Genetic tolerance appears to be a huge part of being able to keep bees without treatments. There is a program to breed for varroa tolerance in their climate and conditions which I've linked below.

http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/node/1289/related_faqs

http://www.queenbees.co.nz/view1.shtml

I could give you a dozen more links, but these are enough to start educating yourself. I suggest learning the scope of the problem before posting absolutes as answers.

And please note my tagline.


----------



## JacobWustner

Oldtimer said:


> 'Since I didn't say her approach didn't work for me it's interesting you assumed that LOL, however you are correct it didn't.
> 
> I would have done it 5 years if any of them had lived that long. 100% dead in 2 years kinda ended the program.
> 
> 
> If mine do 2 good years I am pleased enough.
> 
> I like Dee too, just because she is a tough old lady and unafraid to take on the world. But liking someone does not alone always compel me to accept every word that drips from their mouth as gospel truth. Dee, I think, knows how to keep her bees, in her area.


You said it didn't work in so many words, or at least admitted that you gave up after 2 years. And 100% of how many hives, and how often did you measure and mark the combs? I lost 100% of 80 colonies when I went treatment free, but I didn't really do my research first. But it only encouraged me more to figure out how to do it. Then my journey really began.

You also say nothing of your methods even though I inquired. So I assume you don't really want to give details, and I will stop asking. You can get lots of queens to do 2 years, that is pretty standard. To get queens to live 5 years without problems and without treating, to me that is an accomplishment.

And in saying you like Dee, you sure don't use nice words to describe her enthusiasm. And Dee grew up in New York, kept bees in Montana and many other places. So her track record shows she knows how to keep bees in multiple climates and latitudes, not just her area now in Arizona.

Thanks for the conversation!

Take care!


----------



## Oldtimer

No worries. 

Been harvesting honey last few days, hard on my old body but fork broke so day off today. I know I didn't answer all your questions fully but I'm just cruising today don't feel like writing a thesis.

Apologies also for not using enough nice words to describe Dees enthusiasm, but I said I like her I didn't say I worship her.

Thanks for the links FP I'll check them out and may comment, more important things first like the nice dinner awaiting.


----------



## JacobWustner

Fusion Power - I had no idea I was a tad off base. Could you elaborate? And could you please tell me how you learned about how much I know about honey bees and beekeeping. Is there a biography of me somewhere that I don't know about?  Or did you take my online class? Did you scan my brain?  

I looked at your links, didn't see anything really new to me. What am I missing that you are so sure of? I've spent a lot of time on the internet reading about honey bees and beekeeping.

Old Timer - No problem, just wanted details for my own personal research. Don't worry about me though, it wont break my heart if you don't want to write a thesis for me. 

I would rather you take it easy and try not to work too hard! Beekeepers have that tendency.


----------



## Fusion_power

> Fusion Power - I had no idea I was a tad off base. Could you elaborate? And could you please tell me how you learned about how much I know about honey bees and beekeeping. Is there a biography of me somewhere that I don't know about?  Or did you take my online class? Did you scan my brain?


I'm not in the habit of wasting time on unrewarding activities. You have posted abundant messages here and elsewhere that indicate your areas of knowledge and exactly how long you have been practicing your skills. Rather than waste my time and yours, here are a few questions, see how you think they should be answered. Some of these should be very easy.

What does the ratio 1:2:4 have to do with beekeeping?

How many years elapsed between varroa being found in the U.S. in 1990 before feral survivor colonies began to expand?

Why is a colony with 60,000 bees roughly 4 times as efficient at honey gathering as a colony with 30,000 bees? How would you explain this to a newbee beekeeper?

Why are most forms of hive wrapping counterproductive with limited exceptions?

How many worker bees are needed to produce a good quality mated queen from a nuc?

In Breeding Super Bees, Steve Taber mentioned one queen breeder who consistently produced exceptionally good queens. What was his secret? Bonus points if you know the breeder's name.

What makes the first comb aka primary comb unique as built by a swarm?

Why did Dadant propose 1.5 inch spacing for combs in his hives as being the optimum? What is the major negative effect of using 1.5 inch spacing? Would you categorize Dee Lusby's frame spacing as potentially problematic?

How can you get an usurpation swarm as typically thrown by africanized bees to take up permanent residence in an empty hive? Hint, it is almost impossible to get an usurpation swarm to stay in an empty hive.


----------



## sqkcrk

JacobWustner said:


> And Dee grew up in New York, kept bees in Montana and many other places. So her track record shows she knows how to keep bees in multiple climates and latitudes, not just her area now in Arizona.
> 
> Take care!


I think you assume too much. Unless you have some inside information, how do you know her father was "strict"? Just because of his German background? There's a word for that.

Dee has not kept bees in NY and MT under current circumstances. She left NY well before Varroa arrived in the US. So whether she can replicate her success in AZ in other States is pure speculation. Over the last 39 years I have kept bees in NC, VA, OH, NY, and SC. Whatever that says.

Why do you suppose her methods of management are not more widespread and accepted as practical?


----------



## beemandan

*>**I'm not an expert at treatment free*
*>I feel like 2 years is not enough to transition to treatment free. For most people that have done it, they say it takes at least 5 years.*
Remind me....how long have you been treatment free?
Yet...no reluctance to produce and sell a video telling others how to become treatment free. Organic guru?
Please!


----------



## sqkcrk

Dang, DarJones, I'd fail that test. I do find that the longer I live the less I know. Thanks.


----------



## Barry

JacobWustner said:


> She also grew up in the bees, taught by her strict german father, so I understand why she is so strict.


Probably the military had more to do with that.


----------



## Fusion_power

Here I thought I was only asking simple things that any guru would know. Each of the questions has been discussed here on beesource over the last 10 years, many in the last 6 months. I am not attempting to embarrass Jacob, nor is there any malice intended.


----------



## deknow

> Unless you have some inside information, how do you know her father was "strict"? Just because of his German background? There's a word for that


I don't know of 'a word' in English that describes reporting pretty much exactly what one is told by someone that should know. Anyone that has spent time with dee talking about her background knows both of the German heritage and her strict father.

You are ascribing racist sterotyoes to a situation where they simply aren't a factor.


----------



## beemandan

Fusion_power said:


> Here I thought I was only asking simple things that any guru would know.


I'd have flunked too. But then....I'm not a guru.


----------



## Barry

JacobWustner said:


> You also say nothing of your methods even though I inquired. So I assume you don't really want to give details, and I will stop asking.


Here is another area you could spend more time edumacating yourself. Oldtimer has posted many times during his two year trials, giving details. Use the search function on the homepage and read all about it.


----------



## sqkcrk

deknow said:


> I don't know of 'a word' in English that describes reporting pretty much exactly what one is told by someone that should know. Anyone that has spent time with dee talking about her background knows both of the German heritage and her strict father.
> 
> You are ascribing racist sterotyoes to a situation where they simply aren't a factor.


You don't know a word that describes what one is told by the person in question? How about 4 words like "according to Dee herself"?

That's the inside information I was speculating about. Thanks, Dean.


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

Fusion_power said:


> Rather than waste my time and yours, here are a few questions, see how you think they should be answered. Some of these should be very easy.


DarJones - I find myself decidedly, if unsurprisingly, on the "flunkie" list, as well. It has been most edifying to try to find the answer to these queries. Many thanks.

Yet some of this information is not easy to track down. Recognizing that it is hardly your responsibility to educate anyone here - but in case these questions remain unanswered on the present occasion, I for one would be exceedingly curious to know your own responses to them, and in particular to questions 2 (feral colony expansion after Varroa), 5 (how many worker bees for good quality queens), and 8 (regarding, specifically, Dee Lusby's comb spacing).

John


----------



## JacobWustner

Fusion_power said:


> I'm not in the habit of wasting time on unrewarding activities. You have posted abundant messages here and elsewhere that indicate your areas of knowledge and exactly how long you have been practicing your skills. Rather than waste my time and yours, here are a few questions, see how you think they should be answered. Some of these should be very easy.
> 
> What does the ratio 1:2:4 have to do with beekeeping?
> 
> How many years elapsed between varroa being found in the U.S. in 1990 before feral survivor colonies began to expand?
> 
> Why is a colony with 60,000 bees roughly 4 times as efficient at honey gathering as a colony with 30,000 bees? How would you explain this to a newbee beekeeper?
> 
> Why are most forms of hive wrapping counterproductive with limited exceptions?
> 
> How many worker bees are needed to produce a good quality mated queen from a nuc?
> 
> In Breeding Super Bees, Steve Taber mentioned one queen breeder who consistently produced exceptionally good queens. What was his secret? Bonus points if you know the breeder's name.
> 
> What makes the first comb aka primary comb unique as built by a swarm?
> 
> Why did Dadant propose 1.5 inch spacing for combs in his hives as being the optimum? What is the major negative effect of using 1.5 inch spacing? Would you categorize Dee Lusby's frame spacing as potentially problematic?
> 
> How can you get an usurpation swarm as typically thrown by africanized bees to take up permanent residence in an empty hive? Hint, it is almost impossible to get an usurpation swarm to stay in an empty hive.


Hi Fusion Power! Unfortunately I was not taught about bees in a class room, I was taught by working bees in the field with beekeepers with lots of experience. I can only answer a couple of your questions, and I would start off by saying "it depends". So I will not answer your questions here, for the sake of brevity.

I have no idea what the ratio you are talking about is, or who the breeders you talk of are, of what you are trying to get at with most of you questions. It seems to me like I am being thoroughly ridiculed for my opinions and beliefs. Again, my knowledge mostly comes from experience, a little from research. I could research answers to your questions before I answer them, but that would be dishonest. And since you don't want to waste time, I will leave you hanging here. You will just have to take my class to see for yourself if you think I am knowledgeable. Frankly I don't care what anyone thinks about me. I am who I am and I love myself.

I have missed a lot on here since I posted, and I know nothing about what have people have posted here before I joined a couple of days ago. And frankly, since I am working bees all the time, I don't really care to research everyone's posts here. I had no idea people on bee source would be so confrontational and malicious. Maybe not a good place for a bee-centered beekeeper like me. If not, I am happy to never come on to this site ever again.

I thought bee source was a place for sharing information. Now I am finding it is more a place for beek-bashing, which I do not wish to be a part of. So if that is the kind of atmosphere that I encounter here, I will not return.


----------



## JacobWustner

sqkcrk said:


> I think you assume too much. Unless you have some inside information, how do you know her father was "strict"? Just because of his German background? There's a word for that.
> 
> Dee has not kept bees in NY and MT under current circumstances. She left NY well before Varroa arrived in the US. So whether she can replicate her success in AZ in other States is pure speculation. Over the last 39 years I have kept bees in NC, VA, OH, NY, and SC. Whatever that says.
> 
> Why do you suppose her methods of management are not more widespread and accepted as practical?


Dee said herself in her email list that her father was German, and strict.  I know it sounds bad, but they were her words.

Since geoengineering is accelerating the destruction of the biosphere, whether or not varroa were around where she kept bees in the past is pretty much meaningless. The climate is changing, and life is constantly evolving. Assuming that conditions in nature are static is a problem in beekeeping and agriculture in general.

Why are her methods not widely accepted and practical? Well they are for the 6000 plus beekeepers around the world who are following her and trying her methods. People are slow to change, institutions that make lots of money off of ignorance are even more so. I decided to follow her because I heard about her from beekeepers that I respected. The tide is changing, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening. People are replicating her success all over the world. For me that is proof enough for me to try it myself. Remember that she isn't the only one doing what she is doing.


----------



## JacobWustner

beemandan said:


> *>**I'm not an expert at treatment free*
> *>I feel like 2 years is not enough to transition to treatment free. For most people that have done it, they say it takes at least 5 years.*
> Remind me....how long have you been treatment free?
> Yet...no reluctance to produce and sell a video telling others how to become treatment free. Organic guru?
> Please!


Hi Beeman Dan! I have been doing treatment free beekeeping since 2013, with no plans to go back.

I have no problem teaching people about beekeeping since I have been keeping bees myself for 13 years. Since going treatment free is really easy and necessary for us to clean up agriculture, I have no problem teaching about it. Thanks to people like Michael Bush and Dee Lusby, I have learned a lot in the last few years. So I am pretty **** confident. Ask any of the commercial beekeepers that I work for and they will tell you if I am qualified to teach beekeeping. But of course I will not give you their names! 

And I am an organic guru! Ask me anything about agriculture and how to go organic, and I can surely help you! My background is beekeeping, but my education is Environmental Studies with an emphasis in public policy. Agriculture is my specialty! 

You are very welcome!


----------



## JacobWustner

Fusion_power said:


> Here I thought I was only asking simple things that any guru would know. Each of the questions has been discussed here on beesource over the last 10 years, many in the last 6 months. I am not attempting to embarrass Jacob, nor is there any malice intended.


Sure!


----------



## sqkcrk

JacobWustner said:


> Hi Fusion Power! Unfortunately I was not taught about bees in a class room, I was taught by working bees in the field with beekeepers with lots of experience. I can only answer a couple of your questions, and I would start off by saying "it depends". So I will not answer your questions here, for the sake of brevity.
> 
> I have no idea what the ratio you are talking about is, or who the breeders you talk of are, of what you are trying to get at with most of you questions. It seems to me like I am being thoroughly ridiculed for my opinions and beliefs. Again, my knowledge mostly comes from experience, a little from research. I could research answers to your questions before I answer them, but that would be dishonest. And since you don't want to waste time, I will leave you hanging here. You will just have to take my class to see for yourself if you think I am knowledgeable. Frankly I don't care what anyone thinks about me. I am who I am and I love myself.
> 
> I have missed a lot on here since I posted, and I know nothing about what have people have posted here before I joined a couple of days ago. And frankly, since I am working bees all the time, I don't really care to research everyone's posts here. I had no idea people on bee source would be so confrontational and malicious. Maybe not a good place for a bee-centered beekeeper like me. If not, I am happy to never come on to this site ever again.
> 
> I thought bee source was a place for sharing information. Now I am finding it is more a place for beek-bashing, which I do not wish to be a part of. So if that is the kind of atmosphere that I encounter here, I will not return.


I guess that's one way to answer tough questions.


----------



## sqkcrk

JacobWustner said:


> Remember that she isn't the only one doing what she is doing.


Few and far between are practicing her methods successfully in any common understanding of the meaning of successful.

How many hives are you running using Dee's methods, for how long, with what annual Winterlosses?

I just didn't see the necessity of perpetuating the ethnic stereotype of German fathers being strict. As if being strict is a specifically or typically Germanic trait. Saying that her father was strict would have been enough, wouldn't it?


----------



## JacobWustner

sqkcrk said:


> Few and far between are practicing her methods successfully in any common understanding of the meaning of successful.
> 
> How many hives are you running using Dee's methods, for how long, with what annual Winterlosses?
> 
> I just didn't see the necessity of perpetuating the ethnic stereotype of German fathers being strict. As if being strict is a specifically or typically Germanic trait. Saying that her father was strict would have been enough, wouldn't it?


Hey Mark! 

If any one person follows her methods and has success, I would say it is very meaningful to them. The first time Beethoven wrote a symphony, no one imagined that classical music would go through a dramatic change. But then followed the Romantic era where many great composers were able to shine. He set the stage though, and he was very successful in creating beautiful music, don't you think? If someone would have told him his music was too expressive, do you think he would have listened? Not that he could hear them!  Dee Lusby is my Beethoven of the beekeeping world! Just like Sepp Holzer is my Beethoven of permaculture! I love them!

I think the youtube video of Dee in her bees in enough for anyone to take her seriously. Great looking hives.

I just started Dee's program last year, so I don't have any real numbers yet. I did treatment free using LC combs using Weaver genetics starting in 2013. I can give you numbers on that if you want. 

But as I have encountered many knowledgeable beekeepers in my day, I find Dee Lusby (and Michael Bush too!) to be my guiding light. This is based on my ability to recognize their expertise based on just their writings, even though I haven't met them yet.

I am sorry that I wasn't more careful in choosing my words in describing Dee. I didn't mean to perpetuate ethnic stereotypes, I should have said strict father and that would have been enough. You are right about that! My bad.


----------



## Fusion_power

> I have no idea what the ratio you are talking about is, or who the breeders you talk of are, of what you are trying to get at with most of you questions. It seems to me like I am being thoroughly ridiculed for my opinions and beliefs. Again, my knowledge mostly comes from experience, a little from research. I could research answers to your questions before I answer them, but that would be dishonest. And since you don't want to waste time, I will leave you hanging here. You will just have to take my class to see for yourself if you think I am knowledgeable. Frankly I don't care what anyone thinks about me. I am who I am and I love myself.


I doubt that many of the beekeepers who post here are classroom educated, if they are, most just took a beginning beekeeper course. I've never been to a beekeeping course so I guess you could say I'm self-educated. We are fortunate that quite a few commercial beekeepers, a few serious researchers, numerous queen breeders and package/nuc suppliers, and others with broad depth of knowledge are regulars. I'm posting the answers so someone can pick them apart and because I got so many PM's asking. I'm ambivalent whether you stay or go. If you stay, I hope you will learn to contribute something useful.

As for loving yourself, that is a good thing to do, just don't take it too far. The last man I met who over-loved himself is doing 15 years for fraud. He was brilliant at persuading people just how much he knew and how he could help them all get rich. He was into organic tomatoes.

Since you are also an organic guru, maybe I'll see you at the Organic Seed Alliance meeting in Corvalis Feb 5th.

What does the ratio 1:2:4 have to do with beekeeping? This is the ratio of eggs-larvae-sealed brood with 3 days as an egg, 6 days as a larvae, and 12 days as sealed brood. Any beekeeper inspecting a colony of bees automatically understands this ratio and knows that when it is broken something is wrong in the colony. For example, missing eggs from the ratio is typical of swarm preparation. Recognizing this ratio at a glance is a key beekeeper skill.

How many years elapsed between varroa being found in the U.S. in 1990 before feral survivor colonies began to expand? It was 12 years from the time varroa were first detected until reports started showing up of feral survivor swarms. Anything between 10 and 15 years would have been a good answer.

Why is a colony with 60,000 bees roughly 4 times as efficient at honey gathering as a colony with 30,000 bees? How would you explain this to a newbee beekeeper? Roughly 20,000 workers are required to maintain the broodnest. With 30,000 bees, 20,000 would be in the broodnest and 10,000 would be foragers. With 60,000 bees, 20,000 would be in the broodnest and 40,000 would be foragers. That accounts for the 4 times efficiency increase.

Why are most forms of hive wrapping counterproductive with limited exceptions? Wrapping usually involves decreasing air flow through the hive. This results in condensation which can kill a colony. Also, bees do not heat the interior of the hive. They only heat the cluster. Heavy wraps tend to prevent bees from flying on warm sunny days in winter because they trap the colony in a cold microclimate. Sunshine on the side of an unwrapped hive will often bring bees out for cleansing flights.

How many worker bees are needed to produce a good quality mated queen from a nuc? Given a ripe queen cell, 500 bees can produce a perfect queen. If the bees have to start from scratch building a queen cell, 2000 bees are required. This is supported by research done by Taber and Farrar.

In Breeding Super Bees, Steve Taber mentioned one queen breeder who consistently produced exceptionally good queens. What was his secret? Bonus points if you know the breeder's name. The secret was that he paid attention to quality at each step of rearing queens. He did not give too many cells to the starter, culled any undersized cells, culled any undersized virgins, ensured huge drone populations for mating, and shipped only the very best queens after evaluating them for a full month of laying.

What makes the first comb aka primary comb unique as built by a swarm? The orientation of the cells forms a Y in the bottom. Look at a sheet of foundation and it will be rotated compared to a primary comb. Bees tend to build comb so the Y side is always facing out from the center.

Why did Dadant propose 1.5 inch spacing for combs in his hives as being the optimum? What is the major negative effect of using 1.5 inch spacing? Would you categorize Dee Lusby's frame spacing as potentially problematic? Dadant felt that 1.5 inch spacing increased ventilation and reduced swarming. The negative is that 1.5 spacing reduces spring buildup speed significantly. Dee uses smaller bees which are happy on 4.9 foundation. Smaller bees happen to prefer 1.25 inch spacing for their combs. Dee's combs are spaced wider which causes them to build up slower in spring. This is not a huge negative, but it is one small tweak that makes a difference in bee behavior.

How can you get an usurpation swarm as typically thrown by africanized bees to take up permanent residence in an empty hive? Hint, it is almost impossible to get an usurpation swarm to stay in an empty hive. An usurpation swarm will stay if you give it a single comb of mostly sealed brood.


----------



## sqkcrk

JacobWustner said:


> Hey Mark!
> 
> If any one person follows her methods and has success, I would say it is very meaningful to them. The first time Beethoven wrote a symphony, no one imagined that classical music would go through a dramatic change. But then followed the Romantic era where many great composers were able to shine. He set the stage though, and he was very successful in creating beautiful music, don't you think? If someone would have told him his music was too expressive, do you think he would have listened? Not that he could hear them!  Dee Lusby is my Beethoven of the beekeeping world! Just like Sepp Holzer is my Beethoven of permaculture! I love them!
> 
> I think the youtube video of Dee in her bees in enough for anyone to take her seriously. Great looking hives.
> 
> I just started Dee's program last year, so I don't have any real numbers yet. I did treatment free using LC combs using Weaver genetics starting in 2013. I can give you numbers on that if you want.
> 
> But as I have encountered many knowledgeable beekeepers in my day, I find Dee Lusby (and Michael Bush too!) to be my guiding light. This is based on my ability to recognize their expertise based on just their writings, even though I haven't met them yet.
> 
> I am sorry that I wasn't more careful in choosing my words in describing Dee. I didn't mean to perpetuate ethnic stereotypes, I should have said strict father and that would have been enough. You are right about that! My bad.


Yer alright.

Maybe Dee will prove to be a Classical Beekeeper when people look back on things.


----------



## sqkcrk

"How many years elapsed between varroa being found in the U.S. in 1990 before feral survivor colonies began to expand? It was 12 years from the time varroa were first detected until reports started showing up of feral survivor swarms. Anything between 10 and 15 years would have been a good answer."

Er, Dar? We had Varroa in NY in 1987(?), or was it 88? Definitely before 1990. TM in 1984. So, the math is a little off, I think.


----------



## odfrank

>I think the youtube video of Dee in her bees in enough for anyone to take her seriously. Great looking hives.

For me, watching the videos of Dee and Deknow/Ramona working her hives was the biggest confirmation that they were not the guides to follow.

http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.php/bees/video-audio/16-april-2008-infamous-lusby-yard-videos


----------



## Oldtimer

JacobWustner said:


> I thought bee source was a place for sharing information. Now I am finding it is more a place for beek-bashing, which I do not wish to be a part of. So if that is the kind of atmosphere that I encounter here, I will not return.


People who come here and complain about getting bashed usually made their own luck. Specially ones who know everything and won't countenance non believers in whatever bandwagon they are pushing.

Best I can tell you have been small cell for around 9 months now.


----------



## Fusion_power

Varroa was present from about 1985 but had spread nationwide by 1990. I should have clarified that by 1990 the entire U.S. was infested. I first saw an uptick in feral swarms in 2002 but did not see significant mite tolerance until I caught a feral swarm in 2004.


----------



## JacobWustner

Fusion_power said:


> I doubt that many of the beekeepers who post here are classroom educated, if they are, most just took a beginning beekeeper course. I've never been to a beekeeping course so I guess you could say I'm self-educated. We are fortunate that quite a few commercial beekeepers, a few serious researchers, numerous queen breeders and package/nuc suppliers, and others with broad depth of knowledge are regulars. I'm posting the answers so someone can pick them apart and because I got so many PM's asking. I'm ambivalent whether you stay or go. If you stay, I hope you will learn to contribute something useful.
> 
> As for loving yourself, that is a good thing to do, just don't take it too far. The last man I met who over-loved himself is doing 15 years for fraud. He was brilliant at persuading people just how much he knew and how he could help them all get rich. He was into organic tomatoes.
> 
> Since you are also an organic guru, maybe I'll see you at the Organic Seed Alliance meeting in Corvalis Feb 5th.
> 
> What does the ratio 1:2:4 have to do with beekeeping? This is the ratio of eggs-larvae-sealed brood with 3 days as an egg, 6 days as a larvae, and 12 days as sealed brood. Any beekeeper inspecting a colony of bees automatically understands this ratio and knows that when it is broken something is wrong in the colony. For example, missing eggs from the ratio is typical of swarm preparation. Recognizing this ratio at a glance is a key beekeeper skill.
> 
> How many years elapsed between varroa being found in the U.S. in 1990 before feral survivor colonies began to expand? It was 12 years from the time varroa were first detected until reports started showing up of feral survivor swarms. Anything between 10 and 15 years would have been a good answer.
> 
> Why is a colony with 60,000 bees roughly 4 times as efficient at honey gathering as a colony with 30,000 bees? How would you explain this to a newbee beekeeper? Roughly 20,000 workers are required to maintain the broodnest. With 30,000 bees, 20,000 would be in the broodnest and 10,000 would be foragers. With 60,000 bees, 20,000 would be in the broodnest and 40,000 would be foragers. That accounts for the 4 times efficiency increase.
> 
> Why are most forms of hive wrapping counterproductive with limited exceptions? Wrapping usually involves decreasing air flow through the hive. This results in condensation which can kill a colony. Also, bees do not heat the interior of the hive. They only heat the cluster. Heavy wraps tend to prevent bees from flying on warm sunny days in winter because they trap the colony in a cold microclimate. Sunshine on the side of an unwrapped hive will often bring bees out for cleansing flights.
> 
> How many worker bees are needed to produce a good quality mated queen from a nuc? Given a ripe queen cell, 500 bees can produce a perfect queen. If the bees have to start from scratch building a queen cell, 2000 bees are required. This is supported by research done by Taber and Farrar.
> 
> In Breeding Super Bees, Steve Taber mentioned one queen breeder who consistently produced exceptionally good queens. What was his secret? Bonus points if you know the breeder's name. The secret was that he paid attention to quality at each step of rearing queens. He did not give too many cells to the starter, culled any undersized cells, culled any undersized virgins, ensured huge drone populations for mating, and shipped only the very best queens after evaluating them for a full month of laying.
> 
> What makes the first comb aka primary comb unique as built by a swarm? The orientation of the cells forms a Y in the bottom. Look at a sheet of foundation and it will be rotated compared to a primary comb. Bees tend to build comb so the Y side is always facing out from the center.
> 
> Why did Dadant propose 1.5 inch spacing for combs in his hives as being the optimum? What is the major negative effect of using 1.5 inch spacing? Would you categorize Dee Lusby's frame spacing as potentially problematic? Dadant felt that 1.5 inch spacing increased ventilation and reduced swarming. The negative is that 1.5 spacing reduces spring buildup speed significantly. Dee uses smaller bees which are happy on 4.9 foundation. Smaller bees happen to prefer 1.25 inch spacing for their combs. Dee's combs are spaced wider which causes them to build up slower in spring. This is not a huge negative, but it is one small tweak that makes a difference in bee behavior.
> 
> How can you get an usurpation swarm as typically thrown by africanized bees to take up permanent residence in an empty hive? Hint, it is almost impossible to get an usurpation swarm to stay in an empty hive. An usurpation swarm will stay if you give it a single comb of mostly sealed brood.


 Hi Fusion Power!

So you are in the Bitterroot/Montana and not Alabama? I was not planning on attending the seed alliance meeting. If I could attend everything that had to do with organic food production I would. But I am usually busy teaching people about honey bees. So my time is quite limited.

From my experience there are always exceptions, and many times the bees are doing something that the beekeeper has no idea about. As for the ratio, the conventional wisdom is that development from egg to hatching bee is 21 days. People have observed shorter times. And you have to take into account new queens, queens that are out rebreeding, and the queens that may be slowing down. So I place very little importance on this (obviously because I had no idea what you were talking about!). Most of what I know comes from reading the cluster, not counting eggs. That would be very slow.

And I have no idea about how well people documented feral colonies in the U.S.. As far as I know, none of that happened in Montana. So I tend to just think of nature as following her own patterns, and not following what humans think they know about her.

I have no experience with hive wraps. As far as I know it was developed for hobbyists so I can't really speak from experience. What you have stated does make sense though. I usually tell people to insulate the top (and three sides if they want), leaving the front facing the sun with the entrance(s) unblocked. How I overwinter is different.

The point about the number of bees affecting their ability to forage is pretty straight forward.

You forget to mention that it takes nurse bees, not just workers, to raise queens. The adult workers can get their glands to kick back on, but it usually takes nurse bees to feed larvae/raise queens. And I am sure that the numbers required depends on the type of honey bee, and is not set in stone. Did the research take place using different stocks from all around the world? I doubt it. Typical of research, people seem to think because one type of honey bee does it, they all do. From reading about honey bees, I have found their behavior and biology differs greatly.

I have heard of how people breed queens. I have done it personally and have found it to be inferior to letting the bees raise their own. Doing splits or making nucs, and letting them raise their own. A lot of breeding in agriculture is biased toward what the humans want, and not what is best for the specie that is being bred. These precautions you speak of are well known when you do research on queen rearing. But it is a lot of work when the queens are usually raised by the bees themselves in the wild.

Are you talking about housel positioning? There was a thread started about that here on bee source. Seems like people are not all on board with it.

I thought Dee was using 1.25 inch frames, 10 -11 per box. From her video it sure looks like they are not spaced out, but in there nice and tight.


As far as africanized honey bees, I think it is a misnomer. I have heard of the usurpation swarm, but don't really see it up here in Montana. I would love to try that trick, but I am guessing I may never get the chance.

I guess I have already posted something useful here, but that is subjective to the reader. Wouldn't you agree? I already have had someone call me to pick my brain who saw one of my posts here on bee source. I had a nice long conversation. I felt real good about what I am doing. Hopefully he found my information useful. I am not trying to make money here, just contributing to what I feel is a very important cause. Carrying on the tradition of keeping honey bees. The same reason I started teaching classes, to help carry on the knowledge that was passed down to me from a 4th generation beekeeper and other wise beekeepers. The need for a beekeeper to teach how to keep bees without treatments was obvious in my hometown of Missoula, MT. Everyone else was just doing the conventional thing. So, someone found me, and viola, I have my own online course. If one were to take the course, I am sure they would find it full of wonderful information, profound insights, and the occasional mistake. But despite of all the negativity that the world of beekeeping carries with it, I still stand by my convictions.

If you are in the Bitterroot, are you a member of the Bee Club? Maybe we could talk at the next meeting and you could tell me why I am not useful.  Actually, maybe I can come to the seed alliance meeting and ask you in person. When and where is the meeting?


----------



## JacobWustner

Oldtimer said:


> People who come here and complain about getting bashed usually made their own luck. Specially ones who know everything and won't countenance non believers in whatever bandwagon they are pushing.
> 
> Best I can tell you have been small cell for around 9 months now.


Or you are just mean.


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## Rader Sidetrack

JacobWustner said:


> And you have to take into account new queens, [HIGHLIGHT]queens that are out rebreeding,[/HIGHLIGHT] and the queens that may be slowing down.


Queens _rebreeding_?:scratch: What does that mean to you?


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## Oldtimer

Yes I'd be interested to learn about queens rebreeding also.



JacobWustner said:


> Or you are just mean.


How so? I answered your questions quite civilly, and was rather surprised at your aggressive response. Still don't really understand it but best I can tell it's because you didn't think I heaped enough praise on Dee Lusby? Or perhaps, you are just mean.



JacobWustner said:


> I have heard of how people breed queens. I have done it personally and have found it to be inferior to letting the bees raise their own.


That would depend on the skills of the person doing it.


----------



## Fusion_power

> I guess I have already posted something useful here, but that is subjective to the reader.


Of course you have posted something useful. Not only that, just think how much you - and others - learned from reading this thread. I learn something new every day.

Dee is using 10 frame 1 3/8 inch spacing. I've seen several photos and videos of her working bees. Every time I see it I wonder where she learned to use smoke.

Wrapping was extensively tested and debated in the late 1800's and early 1900's. Brother Adam recorded a good description of early efforts and why they failed so ignominiously. Hive wrapping is a good idea so long the wrap does not trap moisture, does trap solar heat, and reduces penetration of cold wind. A good windbreak is often more useful than hive wraps depending on local climate. You might read a copy of Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey if you want to know more.

I asked how many bees, not what age they were to raise a good queen. But since you mention it, when a queen cell is used, 500 bees can be a range of ages with little impact. Producing a queen cell from scratch requires 2000 mostly young bees. Read the research much of which is online and you might even learn a thing or two about raising queens. Do a search for Farrar and wintering and queens and see what shows up. WRT letting the bees make their own queen as you describe, this can be a good option under some conditions, but if you choose to improve your stock, a selection program of some sort will be required. http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm

I am indeed in northwest Alabama and have no interest in moving anywhere in Montana. I like watermelons, peanuts, cantaloupes, and pecans too much. I am linked into the organic food production movement for a multitude of reasons. http://seedalliance.org/2016-conference Carol Deppe is getting on in years, but she will be doing a 1 1/2 hour presentation along with a question/answer session. Frank Morton will be there as well as Jim Myers, Steve Peters and dozens more. Unfortunately, registration is closed.


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## jim lyon

Fusion_power said:


> I've seen several photos and videos of her working bees. Every time I see it I wonder where she learned to use smoke


Ha ha. I see I'm not the only one driven to distraction by smoker fundamentals when I watch one of those videos. Her geography and breeding methods make one assume her stock has a pretty strong scutellata influence but I can't help but wonder how less aggressive they might be were she to just slow down and use a bit more cool smoke. Guess that is just Dee's style. Personally having to always work bees with a full suit on would take some of the pleasure out of beekeeping. 
From time to time folks show up here on Beesource convinced only they know the answers and just end up looking foolish. Some just get mad and leave, some figure out there there are some pretty smart and pretty experienced beekeepers on here (those two groups aren't always one and the same) and much can be learned by anyone who keeps an open mind and makes an effort to listen. I'll admit to having been a bit that way myself and made some posts in my first year or so that I'm not proud of now. Hopefully the latest young gun to show up will tone it down a bit and learn the art of sharing information and points of view without offending. An Internet discussion group is totally without bias, no one need know the color of your skin or the history of you and your family. You are judged solely on what you post. I can remember being offended by Oldtimer when I first came on here (the gall of some guy from "down unda" trying to tell me something) but it didn't take long for me to figure out that he really did know more about bees than me. . Turns out he's a pretty nice guy too, he just isn't afraid to speak up from time to time.


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## beemandan

JacobWustner said:


> Since going treatment free is really easy and necessary for us to clean up agriculture, I have no problem teaching about it.


 'nuff said.

Also...Jacob Wustner....please learn to trim the quotes you include. Quoting a multiparagraph post from someone else when you are only responding to one or two sentences makes it impossible to follow your thinking. Plus...it's annoying.


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## Oldtimer

Wow well that's a pretty glowing recommendation Jim. Despite everything you said I do know I have had to pm you the odd time to ask advice or pick your brains on something.

Also a while back I watched one of Jacobs videos and to be honest he isn't 1/2 bad in person and he really does know a lot. 

Loved FP's quiz though we should have a few more of those. 

Recently met a very active Beesource TF poster when he was holidaying in my neck of the woods and really enjoyed meeting up, meeting in person sometimes works so much better than meeting on the net. Planning to meet Michael Palmer when he is here next month also which will be great.


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## sqkcrk

Fusion_power said:


> Varroa was present from about 1985 but had spread nationwide by 1990. I should have clarified that by 1990 the entire U.S. was infested. I first saw an uptick in feral swarms in 2002 but did not see significant mite tolerance until I caught a feral swarm in 2004.


Makes sense.


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## sqkcrk

"As far as africanized honey bees, I think it is a misnomer" What would you call them?


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## Oldtimer

Well according to an experiment Dee did, they are quite proficient at thelotyky. A characteristic of capensis. Video'd behaviour resembled capensis also.

They could not possibly be pure capensis though or we would certainly know, but I've long time wondered if there's a gene or two in the mix.


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## deknow

ARS dubbed them Lus-Bees (pre AHB) when the Tucson lab looked at them and found them different than other populations (demonstrated propensity/ability to reproduce using thylytoke).

When I met Dr. Loper a bit over a year ago (he had taken samples from her yards in 2008) if he thought they were still largely a separate population or simply AHB. He expressed to me that he thought they were still a separate population.


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## Oldtimer

A separate population of what, and where did the thelotyky (or however you spell it) come from? Bearing in mind that the only honeybees to wholesale practise theoltyky are capensis. And Lus-Bees I guess, if they are supposedly a species on their own. But the Lus-Bees had to have come from somewhere.


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## sqkcrk

Maybe Dee took a trip to South Africa?


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## jwcarlson

JacobWustner said:


> I think the youtube video of Dee in her bees in enough for anyone to take her seriously. Great looking hives.







Hard to believe you can see the hive through the bees.


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## jlaudiofan

jwcarlson said:


> Hard to believe you can see the hive through the bees.


Can't hear anything she's saying, too loud. 

I like how she pounds the frames back in. If someone starting pounding on my house like that, I'd come outside with a shotgun.


This thread has been a wealth of information, and I think I have learned quite a bit from reading differing opinions. Thanks for keeping it civil, and keep it coming


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## deknow

Oldtimer said:


> A separate population of what, and where did the thelotyky (or however you spell it) come from? Bearing in mind that the only honeybees to wholesale practise theoltyky are capensis. And Lus-Bees I guess, if they are supposedly a species on their own. But the Lus-Bees had to have come from somewhere.


I read a really interesting study involving wasps
It seems.of this particular species there are separate populations....some that are 'c9nvemtional', and some that are only theylotokys females that don't mate, bUT produce female offsprimg.

They wanted to breed between the two populations, but how do you get males from a population that doesn't produce any males?

In this case, with these wasps, it is a colonization of a specific bacteria (wolobachia) that causes/stimulates the thylytoky. They fed individuals from the all female population antibiotics and they reliably switched from producing all females to producing all males.

In the case of these wasps, the thylytoky isn't a genetic trait that is passed on by selection, but a response to a bacterial infection....one that can be reversed with simple antibiotics.


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## SRatcliff

Is it possible thylytoky occurs more often than we think in non-Capensis honey bees?


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## Fusion_power

There are some very old studies from 100 or so years ago showing that it occurs naturally in all strains of bees at a very low rate. Capensis workers have a single gene variation that gives them the ability to lay female eggs at a very high rate. This gene comes with some huge negatives so don't get the idea it is something we want in our bees. It has decimated commercial beekeeping operations in South Africa.


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## Oldtimer

The "very low rate" was one in millions, based on the particular 100 year old study I am thinking of.

Not most hives, like Lusby claims.

Oh and I guess the other possibility is that these rare bacteria that nobody has heard of, that cause wasps to lay female eggs, have mutated, so they can affect bee sex, then made their way to (of course) Dees apiary to infest her particular bees. 

Me, being a simple fellow, I'll go with the most likely explanation, especially one that is thousands of times more likely than another explanation. If it looks and quacks like a duck......

Her bees have capensis genetics.


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## Michael Bush

>Not most hives, like Lusby claims.

Lusbys, Dr. G. DeGrandi-Hoffman and Dr. E. H. Erickson Jr

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...n-a-strain-of-us-honey-bees-apis-mellifera-l/


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## Fusion_power

OT, please look through the available documentation, there is abundant evidence that thelytoky is a normal trait among some strains of bees, especially those originating in North Africa. SouthWest U.S. feral colonies show heavy genetic evidence they descended from bees imported from Spain. This is not the same trait present in Capensis.


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## deknow

> Wolbachia are gram-negative bacteria that are widespread in nature, carried by the majority of insect species as well as some mites, crustaceans, and filarial nematodes. Wolbachia can range from parasitic to symbiotic, depending upon the interaction with the host species. The success of Wolbachia is attributed to efficient maternal transmission and manipulations of host reproduction that favor infected females, such as sperm-egg cytoplasmic incompatibility (CI).


The genetics and cell biology of Wolbachia-host interactions.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...tL8gln3HSv-Vd8qMw&sig2=QePoFQL3wV34hhm99Eqh8g


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## sqkcrk

I thought we had a Dead Horse Being Beaten Icon. What happened? ASPCA complaint?


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## Fusion_power

t: http://www.beesource.com/forums/misc.php?do=showsmilies :digging: :bus


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## deknow

I dunno. For me, once you start looking at bacteria (common ones) that have worked out a reproductive strategy that manipulates the fertility of an unfertilized egg of its host as its own reproductive advantage (remember that sexual reproduction was 'invented' as a way to combat parasites/pathogens...so a strategy that eliminates sexual reproduction in the host cripples the hosts ability to genetically gain resistance to the parasite/pathogen), one can no longer assume that things are as simple as they are commonly described.

There is work that discounts wolbachia as a factor in thylytoky in fully social hymonoptra like the Cape bee....but again, things are obviously quite complex, and it wouldn't be suprisong that there is more than one trigger to cause thylytoky...and even more than one bacteria.

When dee described to me how she motivated the queenless colonies to produce queens, nothing was suprising...she setup a situation where they were string with resources, amd had no choice but to raise a queen.

On one trip to AZ, we were in one of Dees yards (a remote one) with some Canadian Comercial beeks. There was one colony that felt queenless (bees vibrating on the porch)...the commercials were beside themselves that dee wouldn't take the time to pop in a frame of eggs/brood from another colony. Dees response was something like 'if I have a high level of thylytoky in my bees and it helps them survive, why would I want to select against it by giving them brood?'


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## Oldtimer

Michael Bush said:


> >Not most hives, like Lusby claims.


Actually Mike, reading that again I realised my wording was completely confusing. It sounded like I was saying Lusby claims most hives have thelotyky. I meant she claims her hives have thelotyky.



Fusion_power said:


> OT, please look through the available documentation, there is abundant evidence that thelytoky is a normal trait among some strains of bees, especially those originating in North Africa. SouthWest U.S. feral colonies show heavy genetic evidence they descended from bees imported from Spain. This is not the same trait present in Capensis.


FP may I suggest you read Dees experiment, linked a few posts back by Mike Bush. Then see if you could try it and get similar results with your own bees, descended from Spain or not. If you can't, you will see what I mean. IE, most hives do not have thelotyky. Which is why laying workers, if they arise, are a problem for most of us.


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## Fusion_power

OT, I've read that and much more. I don't claim experience with thelotyky. There is documentation of worker bees laying eggs and producing queens from well over 100 years ago that were identified as "punic" bees which corresponds to north africa. There are several sources documenting this trait. I'm not making an argument that it occurs in Italians, Carniolans, or any other common commercial bees you or I would be familiar with. I am stating that Dee's stock source is highly probable to carry the trait as an ancestral carry over from the bees that were brought from Spain.


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## Oldtimer

Maybe I haven't seen this study is there a link?


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## Clayton Huestis

> A separate population of what, and where did the thelotyky (or however you spell it) come from?


Dee has been saying for years that she has been using local feral stock. Stock probably predated heavy spread of AHB (scutellata) in AZ. Punic bees were brought to the US in the late 1800's. There was a report a few year back on feral bees in the Carolinas that showed 3% of dna was still from African blood/ they don't mention what race. Wouldn't bee a big stretch of the imagination to think that some degree of punic blood still exists here in the states in our feral bees. Dee has told me for years she selects bees to be black in coloration:



> In 1891 (give or take a year)... A British beekeeper named John Hewitt imported so called 'Punic' bees from Tunisia, he found and described thelytoky in these bees. These bees were reported as having been small, black, spiteful, and with the habit of biting humans in addition to stinging.


Look at the above carefully: small black (4.7-4.9 cell size), spiteful- did you watch those vids of Dee's bees aren't too friendly, of course what do you expect with slamming and crap smoker use, biting (also hair pulling)- I expect heavy allogrooming from these bees and a reason why they survive varroa among other traits.



> In Thelytokious bees... Worker bees can be seen biting each other, or particularly other worker bees with their abdomens in a cell in what could be described as an egg laying attitude.


Sound a bit like that report on LUS bees and thelotyky. The above quotes are from Dave Cushman's site on Punic bees. All I'm saying is that punic blood might still be among us. Is it a big wonder why we see survival coming out of our feral stocks? Granted I have a bit of speculation going here but just sayin.......


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## beemandan

Clayton Huestis said:


> Dee has been saying for years that she has been using local feral stock. .


Regardless of the original stock, everything I've read suggests that Dee allows swarms to move into her empty equipment as well as open mating for her swarm/supercedure queens. In an area that has become Africanized...I would expect little to none of the original genetics to remain. 
It would certainly explain the cell size and spiteful bees.


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## deknow

.....except the study was published in 1991, which was the same year that AHB was first reported in AZ....in a city where there is a bee lab that stood to gain significant funding the moment they could report AHB in AZ.....yet the study talks about Dees specific population, and does not regard them as African iced at the time.


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## beemandan

deknow said:


> the same year that AHB was first reported in AZ...


The assertion that in 1991 AHB instantaneously became significant in AZ...is probably preferable for your storyline but I doubt if it reflects reality. Having said that, the idea promoted by some that her present bees are not AHB runs totally counter to reason.


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## deknow

1. Instinaniously significant is a very different c9ncept than first reported. The tucson lab and the state of AZ had been preparing for years and everyone was on the lookout.

2. I asked Dr. Getty Loper about Dees population....I believe he last visited a bunch of her bees in the winter of 2007 2008 (just before I shot those videos...within a couple months).

I asked him very directly if he thought dees bees were still largely a separate population (as described in the 1991 paper), he told me he thought they were.

The experienced beekeepers I've been in Dees yards with (several commercial beekeepers included...the migratory/almond commercial type, bee inspectors, researchers) all generally agree that save a few outstanding examples of defensive behaviour, most of Dees colonies are not like AHB is describes or experiemced.


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## deknow

Here is dr Erikson talking about the small cell feral bees in the tucson area in 1989.





http://vimeo.com/19816966


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## beemandan

deknow said:


> most of Dees colonies are not like AHB is describes or experiemced.


And I'm sure that genetic testing has supported this.


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## beemandan

I'll have to admit that I am not familiar with Dr Getty Loper or Dr Erikson and a google search didn't seem to help.


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## jlaudiofan

I live West of Tucson, had a swarm move into a boat in my yard last year. A local beekeeper and I removed the hive which turned out to be quite a messy task. The bees were amazing docile even thought we were tearing down their house. I got stung on the hand twice (both were because I accidentally squished the bee). 

It's hard for me to tell if it was a "feral" hive, as I don't know how many other beekeepers are around. If it was a feral swarm that moved in, they definitely didn't have the aggressiveness that africanized bees have. 

The areas that Dee has her bees is southwest of me. I have read she has some in the area of Kitt Peak, which I can see off in the distance from my house. 

Thought I might put these observations out there for all to consider.


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## deknow

Typo. Gerrard Loper. ...retired (and sharp as a tack) from the tucson lab....did amazing work with DCA amd radar...got really good data from primitive radar equipment.

Dr. Eric Erikson is formerly the director of the tucson lab...also retired. 

Both are, I believe still near the lab amd are still involved in one way or another.


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## beemandan

And genetic testing supports the contention that LUSbees are not AHB?


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## deknow

There was no AHB in AZ 8n 1988, 1989.....and no one at the lab (which was preparing for AHB) had any suspicions that lus bees were AHB....it would have meant funding for the lab. I'm not sure what the state of 'genetic testing' was in 1989....but nothing about them was linked to AHB by anyone.


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## beemandan

deknow said:


> There was no AHB in AZ 8n 1988, 1989.....


And...between 1989 and 1991...shazam....they suddenly appeared.....

Kinda glued to that 1989 - 91 time frame. Genetic testing is pretty common today and has been for quite a while. To your knowledge have her bees ever been genetically tested for AHB genetics? Ever?


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## Fusion_power

Short circuit this discussion a bit, thelotyky was documented in Lusbees prior to africanized bees arrival in the area therefore it is not derived from scutellata. Dr. Erikson is well known from about 30 years ago for numerous publications and research on honeybees. His credentials are substantial.

As I stated in an earlier post, there is good reason to speculate that thelotyky in Lusbees is derived from feral bees that originated in North Africa and were transported to the U.S. several hundred years ago. The trait does not exist to any significant level in european populations. It is well documented in the late 1800's in punic bees which probably correlates with A. M. Intermissa. Intermissa is adapted to dry climates which fits Arizona like a glove. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_mellifera_intermissa

Speaking of bees that bite beekeepers, there is a lot of current selection work for bees that bite mites. We can speculate that Lusbees mite tolerance is tied to their penchant for chewing on things.


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## JRG13

I recall seeing a link somewhere, maybe in this thread, her bees tested as an isolated/separate population, distinct from other populations tested.


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## beemandan

Fusion_power said:


> thelotyky was documented in Lusbees prior to africanized bees arrival in the area


Based on the fact that the USDA didn't report them until 1991? It your contention, as it seems it is Dean's, that in 1990 AHB weren't in AZ but in 1991 they were? Zero in 1990...paint the state red in 1991? You believe it is that absolute?
Right on the cusp of an AHB incursion. Convenient.
People are still claiming that her bees are EHB. Simple to objectively prove. And yet nobody has bothered to conduct any genetic testing? EVER.


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## Fusion_power

It is not up to me or Dean or anyone else to prove anything DanMan. You have to prove your point, not the reverse. There is clear evidence submitted that Lusbees were a unique population exhibiting thelotyky prior to arrival of africanized bees. That they are significantly africanized today is highly probable but not relevant to the discussion of thelotyky.


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## Michael Bush

Dee has had several tests done in Europe and no one seems to be able to conclusively say what their bees are. They said they are similar to Caucasian but they were not Caucasian.


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## beemandan

Fusion_power said:


> That they are significantly africanized today is highly probable but not relevant to the discussion of thelotyky.


Thank goodness someone accepts that they are africanized. 
This isn't a court of law Dar. There's plenty of speculation on both sides and no hard evidence for either. Lots of opinions...but as I've said before....opinions aren't absolute facts.


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## beemandan

Michael Bush said:


> Dee has had several tests done in Europe


I am confident that if Dee's bees had been genetically tested for AHB genetics and the results showed them to be EHB....we'd have seen the document...countless times already.


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## Fusion_power

> Thank goodness someone accepts that they are africanized.


Dan, I neither accept nor reject whether Lusbees are africanized. I don't have a horse in the race. If you want to prove they are africanized, go collect a sample and have them tested.


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## jim lyon

Surely someone has transplanted or attempted to transplant some of Dee's stock into a different area to see if it would successfully adapt. I have a feeling we would have heard about it if it had been successful.


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## beemandan

Fusion_power said:


> go collect a sample


Sounds like a sure fire way to get a load of buckshot in my backside...


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## beemandan

jim lyon said:


> Surely someone has transplanted or attempted to transplant some of Dee's stock into a different area to see if it would successfully adapt.


An interesting point. I was thinking someone said that Barry had gotten some once. Might only be a snapped synapse on my part though.


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## Oldtimer

Clayton Huestis, your post makes a lot of sense, much thanks for this useful information.

Some years ago I read of her thelotyky experiment and it's been a bit of a mystery to me ever since how come if she had capensis genetics, why there are none of the problems that occur when capensis and the other breeds meet. I had put it down to her breed having somehow incorporated just a small number of capensis genetics.

However your explanation makes a lot of sense, and I guess other beekeepers could breath a sigh of relief there are not capensis in the area.

The comments about biting and hair pulling, some of my bees will do that, yikes! 

Of course all that is a different matter to whether or not they later got some AHB genetics, Scutellata are not renowned for thelotoky so that is a different discussion.


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## Riskybizz

"Dee has had several tests done in Europe (when, where and by whom?) and no one (whose no one?) seems to be able to conclusively say what their bees are. They (they being?) said they are similar to Caucasian but they were not Caucasian"

I don't have a dog in this fight either but hasn't this discussion been kicked around here quite a few times before? Out of curiosity I never realized that the Arizona desert is actually an island.


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## beemandan

Oldtimer said:


> Of course all that is a different matter to whether or not they later got some AHB genetics, Scutellata are not renowned for thelotoky so that is a different discussion.


True.


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## Clayton Huestis

I would say that Dee's bees definetly have some African blood. Just has to be with open mating of queens. With Punic blood or scutellata blood either way their both African. Feel like where drifting away on a side tangent....


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## beemandan

Clayton Huestis said:


> Feel like where drifting away on a side tangent....


The whole thread has been one side tangent after another.


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## Oldtimer

Fusion_power said:


> go collect a sample and have them tested.





beemandan said:


> Sounds like a sure fire way to get a load of buckshot in my backside...


LOL that's pretty funny Dan.  I can see the newspaper headlines - Very determined old lady with shotgun chases Dan the Beeman off her property!! 
Dan recovering in hospital after his ordeal. 




beemandan said:


> The whole thread has been one side tangent after another.


All over the net, discussions about Dee go this way and are usually very polarised. Finally think I may have figured why.

What may be happening is she describes what to do, but so many who try it faithfully, fail. It may be her experience is true for her, and I am sure it is, she is completely honest in my view. But the problem is she has different bees to everybody else.

If we look at the description - [small black (4.7-4.9 cell size), spiteful, biting and hair pulling], that could explain why her bees take so readily to her 4.9 foundation, it is a natural size for them. And so many other things, this may well be part of the reason why she cannot understand why other folks cannot do the same as her, and other folks have doubts about Dees teachings having tried them and failed. 

Simple reason, different bees.


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## Fusion_power

> Simple reason, different bees.


aka genetics


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## Ian

> Simple reason, different bees.


wait, ... who said that... lol


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## Barry

beemandan said:


> To your knowledge have her bees ever been genetically tested for AHB genetics? Ever?


http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ed-dee-lusby/lusbys-bee-biometrics/

When I was in communication with Ed and Dee, this was the test results they always pointed to. To my knowledge, there hasn't been testing done here in the states.


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## Barry

beemandan said:


> An interesting point. I was thinking someone said that Barry had gotten some once. Might only be a snapped synapse on my part though.



 Where can I meet you for a beer?


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## Vance G

It really reminds me of the slam bam commercial beekeeping I was taught was normal in the seventies in North Dakota. Doing everything as fast as possible and on to the next yard.


odfrank said:


> >I think the youtube video of Dee in her bees in enough for anyone to take her seriously. Great looking hives.
> 
> For me, watching the videos of Dee and Deknow/Ramona working her hives was the biggest confirmation that they were not the guides to follow.
> 
> http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.php/bees/video-audio/16-april-2008-infamous-lusby-yard-videos


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## jlaudiofan

Vance G said:


> It really reminds me of the slam bam commercial beekeeping I was taught was normal in the seventies in North Dakota. Doing everything as fast as possible and on to the next yard.


Bees don't like being disrespected, it makes them loud angry and stingy.



Riskybizz said:


> Out of curiosity I never realized that the Arizona desert is actually an island.


It's a very unique place, especially during the summer monsoon season


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## beemandan

Barry said:


> this was the test results they always pointed to.


Morphology examination was surely the best testing of its time. We can, with a high degree of confidence, throw out all of the results that indicate 'probably Africanized' as they appear to have been tested in 1986 and we know that there weren't any AHB in AZ until 1991.


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## Clayton Huestis

> We can, with a high degree of confidence, throw out all of the results that indicate 'probably Africanized' as they appear to have been tested in 1986 and we know that there weren't any AHB in AZ until 1991.



I propose that the African blood was from punic heritage. That has been there since the turn of the century and why LUS-bees have thelotyky. Can we be certain that the test would distinguish between punic heritage vs scutellata? Not saying scutellata wasn't on the scene then, but African blood has been in the US for at least 100+ yrs.


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## beemandan

Clayton Huestis said:


> I propose that the African blood was from punic heritage....... Can we be certain that the test would distinguish between punic heritage vs scutellata?


I believe that the FABIS method of morphological testing was developed to estimate the amount of scutellata influence. I could be wrong. 
Punic? I would think that any bees identified as Punic would have their origins from North Africa...and I would have to guess that their genes would be more similar to European bees...simply because of proximity. Africa is a pretty big continent...and the range of scutellata is on the opposite side of that continent. 
The report on Lusby's bees indicated a likely connection to Apis mellifera carnica and Apis mellifera caucasica...and I doubt if those would be easily confused with Apis mellifera scutellata.
All just my opinion...


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## Juhani Lunden

Fusion_power said:


> There is documentation of worker bees laying eggs and producing queens from well over 100 years ago that were identified as* "punic" *bees which corresponds to north africa. .


Is _Apis mellifera intermissa _the correct name for these mysterious punic bees? 

If yes, John Kefuss bees have intermissa blod in them too.


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## Clayton Huestis

> Is Apis mellifera intermissa the correct name for these mysterious punic bees


I believe so. Or at least it is one of the bees from that area.


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## Oldtimer

This might solve another mystery for me. Despite years of dealing with hundreds of wild hives, including multi generational ferals from pre varroa times, I have been able to find almost no brood comb measuring 4.9 or less, average across several inches of comb. The standard size for fully regressed bees here is 5.1 or 5.2. Even my bees on 4.9 comb I forced them to build, a year after being downsized, would regress back to 5.1 or 5.2 if I gave them a chance.

The different breeds and characteristics we are talking brings up a new question when we see it said - The natural size for "bees" is 4.9. The question should be - Which "bees"?


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## Fusion_power

OT, I see the same thing. My bees make 5.1 as natural size. I have exactly one colony that has built natural comb at 4.8 to 5.1.


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## Oldtimer

Do you put that down to genetics, or location?


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## Clayton Huestis

I have colonies that will draw 4.75 mm using a 4.9 starter strip. Most will draw 4.9 pretty easily. A few still will draw 5.0 - 5.2. I do bring in some new blood about every 5 yrs. could be why possibly.


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## Fusion_power

> Do you put that down to genetics, or location?


Genetics. They will draw 4.9 if given foundation, but when allowed to draw their own, it averages 5.0 to 5.2.


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## Barry

While I was searching for some files on my computer, I found an exchange we had on another site about Lusby's bee genetics. This is Dee's response.



> July 18, 2002
> Bob wrote:
> > The Lusbys say their bees are not ahb but have no proof and
> > 'the USDA says all of Arizona is AHB from their research.
> 
> Reply:
> Bob, the proof that our bees are not AHB is the fact that neither the USDA nor other excellent labs and scientists in Europe have identified our bees as africanized of any sort, with the exception, in the beginning, when we helped with samples of our bees in defining the accuracy/ parameters of FABIS, which flunked and said our small black bees were africanized, while the german scientists (Koeniger was one) and others in USA (Houck was one, Roy-Keith Smith another) said our bees were caucasian or similar to caucasian.
> 
> There has been no DNA done to pinpoint what our bees are, except with DNA done on our bees and the small black ones in the hills of San Diego by the USDA, when Charlie Morris was inspector of San Diego County way back, when all this stuff was starting on how to ID bees, and FABIS was being written, and carried a disclaimer in its paper (that if the bees in other areas were different then the bees in the FABIS survey or another area, then different standards were to be developed and used), that others never followed with the exception of Arizona. Arizona did set up another model for FABIS.
> 
> Either one can identify or one cannot. This is the oddity! Just what are our bees???? I myself think NATIVE and I am standing until the DNA says otherwise. . . .It certainly has never said Africanized. In fact no managed colonies in the whole state of Arizona have ever been surveyed to find out by either FABIS or DNA what the bees actually are.
> 
> If identifying is going to be done, it is going to be done right!
> 
> Bob also wrote:
> > I would need some official inspection that the stock was
> > not AHb before I would order queens from an area which
> > according to the *2001* USDA AHB spread map is the highest
> > concentration of AHB in the U.S. for a single state.
> 
> Reply:
> No official statewide surverys were ever done in Arizona for AHBs either before, or after de-statuatorizing the books by either the USDA or the state of Arizona. Even now Dr Rinderer says in ABJ, July 02 issue page 480, only 9 of the 15 counties in Arizona were AHB according to him.
> 
> The USDA never declared Arizona 100% africanized on paper, as one can see by this in the current ABJ. AHB classification for a hive means only one mating of a queen of several in a hive to be africanized. For a county to be africanized, only one hive has to be found by the standard used to declare africanization, and yet FABIS was flawed early on, and was not corrected to much later. Only corrected after it's so-called trek up S. America thru Mexico and into the USA including early parts of Texas and Arizona.
> 
> The declaration of 100% africanized in Arizona, was done by Mr Kelly, Director of the Arizona Dept of Agric, following de-statutatory regulation of the books, as a parting gift to our industry. It does not match Dr Rinderer assessment of partial africanization. So which is correct? You choose.
> 
> As for a map showing the highest concentration of AHB in the country. Well, IT SHOULD!! For the FIGURES ARE FLAWED. Why???
> 
> Because throughout the 1980s and 1990s our area in Arizona has had the most beekeepers trying to regress bees back smaller. First to 900 size, i.e. Dr Erickson and Hines even tried it. We worked with Dr Erickson and Dr Hoffman with smaller cell size of 5.0 - 5.1 for many years, and now we are even smaller. All the while many locally, followed us trying.
> 
> On one side the bee lab was into studies with regressing of honeybees to see how it effected mites(we had a signed contract with Western Region with Dr Erickson and Dr Hoffman doing the work on a technical exchange of information), and on the other side the lab was into africanization with Dr Loper and his group. It was conflicting at times between the two groups.
> 
> But the fact the so much comb was being made locally, and put into beehives, was never reflected into the data bases as domestic bees absconded to the feral! Why???? To help the labs better to get AHB going for money grants? Probably? But then, maybe they never thought about it as a problem? After all who would it hurt in the long run?
> If the maps did not show us as most africanized I whould be even more surprised!
> 
> Also, did you know that the first 2-3 years, all ahb finds were near or next to beeyards setup on smaller combs. Yet, why no comparison of this or noting in surveys of official record??? Sizing down in the area had already been going on for 10 years or more at the time of official africanization with bees coming into Arizona by local area beekeepers. The lab itself had already been working with small cell projects for more then 7-8 years also.
> 
> Ahbs in Arizona. I really don't think so, not like you do! for I know the political history of the state for this subject, and I will only believe when I see the DNA of our yards showing it, which I do not think can be done. All they were looking for was something different. This was said many times. Different by sizing! Different by colour! but they forgot DNA was still developing and now we will wait until we officially find out! Then we will know for sure.
> 
> Regards
> Dee


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## lharder

Seems like many of the so called africanized ferals in the southern states are quite workable. What exactly is an africanized bee anyway? An extensive genetic survey in Africa itself would show huge genetic variation from biogeoclimatic zone to zone. Isn't it a naive concept to think about "Africanization" without taking into account this complexity. Also depending on habitat, selection would select different hardy weinburg equilibriums for sets of alleles. Perhaps at this point, a simplistic sub species model should be abandoned, instead looking at locally adapted sets of allele frequencies that coalesce. Extensive DNA sampling would show a gradient with some populations adopting alleles from Africa as they become useful.


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## JWChesnut

lharder said:


> Isn't it a naive concept to think about "Africanization" without taking into account this complexity.


Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you are now halfway through your second winter keeping bees in Canada. 

Do you have any real world experience with AHB? I do, and I find your suppositions, in their earnest certainty, quite foolish.

The surprising discovery of AHB was its dominance, and its ability to maintain undiluted genotype across thousands of miles and many "biogeoclimatic" zones. (a buzz word if ever I heard one).

Where is the evidence of "coalescing allele frequences"? Honeybee have a portmonteau genetic strategy, they don't throw anything away. If selection pressure is less than the "inertia" allowing populations to maintain diverse alleles -- the species does not evolve. Much of the intellectual energy studying evolution is devoted to the process of change, however stasis is the normal condition. Bee illustrate this beautifully, because they have strong ecological benefits to maintaining stasis.

The Delaney (and her students) studies that discovered relict mitochondrial DNA of English bees in the backwood mountains of North Carolina illustrate the principle of conservative maintenance of germlines. Those bees migrated into the woods with rustic forebears in the 18th century, and have remained. Are they "locally adapted" -- no, they are English bees, using their social organization to flourish in a new world. Bees are adaptable because they are builders, ventilators, generalist foragers -- not because they are pre-programmed genetically to look for dead (exotic fungus killed) American Chestnut stumps as the only ideal nest cavity.


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## lharder

Well I have organic honey from Brazil in my local costco, so it looks like someone is successful working with them. There are a bunch of TF people who are probably have some of those genetics from the ferals they catch in the southern states. Just watch JP the bee man to see how the bees he cuts out of buildings vary in longevity, size and temper. Do you really believe that the bees he catches are either European or African, but never some sort of mixture?

I hope you are not basing your conclusions on mitochondrial DNA. As I'm sure you know, we get it from our mothers. So you can track it down through the maternal line. But it doesn't give much info on the rest of the genome. If you follow Delaney's work further, you do find allelic diversity (for instance in the Arnot forest that is spreading slowly into nearby apiaries). She is very much interested in it from the presentation I saw. So we don't have homogeneous genetics with European bees in North America is spite of wide spread movement of bees and the limited number of queen mothers with most bees kept by people. There could have been much more if bees were consistently raised locally. 

That is the perspective of this beekeeper going into his third year, but also happens to have a masters in forest entomology with a undergrad in insect/plant ecology with course work in evolution, genetics and biogeography. Went to the school where BC's biogeoclimatic zones were initially developed by Dr. V.J. Krajina in the department of botany. At any rate, we should both know by now that these are spurious types of arguments.


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## beemandan

I've watched the Lusby videos....I'd be evicted from every beeyard I have and probably arrested for endangering the public if I kept bees like that. 
Quite workable is not my opinion.


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## Michael Bush

Quite a few people from the Oracle organic get together were going around to Dee's yards and Dee was throwing boxes around and getting the bees all excited. The guy next to me in the back of the truck as we drove to a new yard said "I wonder how they would respond if you treated them normally" and I said "let's find out". So I lit a smoker and at the next yard he and I went to the opposite end of the yard, blow a puff of smoke in the door. Popped the top and blow a puff across the top and proceeded to take the hive apart looking for brood and a queen. It acted like any normal hive. Yes, they were workable, but I would not work them the way Dee does.


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## deknow

I've had similar experience. I also one year was asked to get a jar of bees from one of Dees hives for an apitherapy demonstration....I didn't have gloves handy...I worked slowly bit had no problems. I did use a smoker.


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## sqkcrk

Michael Bush said:


> Quite a few people from the Oracle organic get together were going around to Dee's yards and Dee was throwing boxes around and getting the bees all excited. The guy next to me in the back of the truck as we drove to a new yard said "I wonder how they would respond if you treated them normally" and I said "let's find out". So I lit a smoker and at the next yard he and I went to the opposite end of the yard, blow a puff of smoke in the door. Popped the top and blow a puff across the top and proceeded to take the hive apart looking for brood and a queen. It acted like any normal hive.  Yes, they were workable, but I would not work them the way Dee does.


This reminds me of a guy I inspected a yard of bees with. He started at one end of the yard and I the other. After a while I noticed him gone. When he came back from the truck he had his full suit on. I was still in a hooded pullover veil and longsleeved shirt with sleeves rolled up. 

Then I noticed him gone again. When he returned he was wearing heavy rubber gloves. When I got two pallets away I found out why. So I left him to finish the yard.

Seems as though Dee is rough with her bees. Is that it?


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## beemandan

I've dropped boxes and frames loaded with bees and never had them come at me the way I've seen in those videos. You can try to blame it on rough handling all you want. When they relentlessly come at the camera...just imagine that's one of your children or grandchildren or a neighbor who just happened to be nearby when they got fired up. You can call them carnica, iberica or punic...doesn't matter. Her bees are dangerous.


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## JWChesnut

The Lusby hives that were video'd in 2013 (and photographed many other times) can be inspected in Google Earth at:
31.694822°, -111.273864° Resolution is very good, and stack height (via individual hive shadows) can be viewed.

If you turn on "historical imagery" in Google Earth, you will learn the configuration of the yard is virtually unchanged between 2010 and 2014 (last image). The array was possibly missing in 2007, and an earlier layout present in 2004. Another yard, also photographed, is unchanged in hive stacks between 2002 and 2014.

The hives are in the lower Sonoran desert -- in an ambient environment where all ferals are Africanized. The yard has been left to recolonize with no movement of colonies, for at least 4-5 years. Stacks are the same (but honey harvest may have occurred). The videos and photographs show dead outs mixed with live colonies.

Of course, the yard is Africanized -- as any recolonization into the rotting boxes (which are likely too old to be moved) would come from the feral population.

The low desert south of Tucson is fully Africanized, and that is the matrix from which bees occupying the frozen boxes have arisen.


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## jim lyon

I entrusted around 400 of my hives to another beekeeper in the brush country of SW Texas a number of years ago. They were left untreated and largely unmanaged for over 2 years. About 40% survived and those hives were all extremely aggressive.....pretty much exactly like in Dees videos. I put them in my most isolated South Dakota locations, fretted about them all summer, then depopulated in the fall. It was the prudent thing to do, they could have killed someone. 
JW is almost certainly on the mark here. Let's not overthink this, it's is no great mystery. Dee is keeping Africanized bees in an area where they have naturally adapted. They act like ducks, they quack like ducks and they are surrounded by ducks...they gotta be ducks.


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## David LaFerney

I believe that is the duck version of Occam's razor.


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## jim lyon

Michael Bush said:


> Quite a few people from the Oracle organic get together were going around to Dee's yards and Dee was throwing boxes around and getting the bees all excited. The guy next to me in the back of the truck as we drove to a new yard said "I wonder how they would respond if you treated them normally" and I said "let's find out". So I lit a smoker and at the next yard he and I went to the opposite end of the yard, blow a puff of smoke in the door. Popped the top and blow a puff across the top and proceeded to take the hive apart looking for brood and a queen. It acted like any normal hive. Yes, they were workable, but I would not work them the way Dee does.


I will agree, it does drive me crazy watching Dees smoking or should I say smokeless manner of working hives. I have worked plenty of hives through the years using little or no smoke when the situation calls for it. The things that set Africanized bees apart from most domestic bees is first, their tendency, when agitated, for even nurse bees to either attack or run wildly on the comb and secondly is the way they attack inanimate objects. Sometimes you can get by working a hive or two of Africanized bees without too much turmoil if you are using good smoker technique and no rapid motions but the cumulative effects of working a number of hives in sequence will eventually begin to get them all riled up. However, as in any bee work, a lot of it is weather and condition dependent.


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## Oldtimer

JWChesnut said:


> The low desert south of Tucson is fully Africanized, and that is the matrix from which bees occupying the frozen boxes have arisen.


"The Master finds that the less and less she does, the more and more just happens. Until finally by doing nothing at all, all her hives full of bees is accomplished". Tsu Tsi - The Theory of War.


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## xphoney

sqkcrk said:


> This reminds me of a guy I inspected a yard of bees with. He started at one end of the yard and I the other. After a while I noticed him gone. When he came back from the truck he had his full suit on. I was still in a hooded pullover veil and longsleeved shirt with sleeves rolled up.
> 
> Then I noticed him gone again. When he returned he was wearing heavy rubber gloves. When I got two pallets away I found out why. So I left him to finish the yard.
> 
> Seems as though Dee is rough with her bees. Is that it?


A commercial operation I watched in Central Wisconsin treated their bees very aggresively and you could not get within 100 feet without full gear on. When you watch 'em put a pollen patty on the frames on top of a few hundred bees and smash it down to make it fit, its no wonder why they are mean. I'm not passing judgement, I just prefer to work with much less gear on.

I hope I never get that big that I need to kill hundreds with every inspection....

Andrew


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## xphoney

Fusion_power said:


> What does the ratio 1:2:4 have to do with beekeeping? This is the ratio of eggs-larvae-sealed brood with 3 days as an egg, 6 days as a larvae, and 12 days as sealed brood. Any beekeeper inspecting a colony of bees automatically understands this ratio and knows that when it is broken something is wrong in the colony. For example, missing eggs from the ratio is typical of swarm preparation. Recognizing this ratio at a glance is a key beekeeper skill.
> 
> Why is a colony with 60,000 bees roughly 4 times as efficient at honey gathering as a colony with 30,000 bees? How would you explain this to a newbee beekeeper? Roughly 20,000 workers are required to maintain the broodnest. With 30,000 bees, 20,000 would be in the broodnest and 10,000 would be foragers. With 60,000 bees, 20,000 would be in the broodnest and 40,000 would be foragers. That accounts for the 4 times efficiency increase.
> 
> Why are most forms of hive wrapping counterproductive with limited exceptions? Wrapping usually involves decreasing air flow through the hive. This results in condensation which can kill a colony. Also, bees do not heat the interior of the hive. They only heat the cluster. Heavy wraps tend to prevent bees from flying on warm sunny days in winter because they trap the colony in a cold microclimate. Sunshine on the side of an unwrapped hive will often bring bees out for cleansing flights.
> 
> .


Don't take this personally, I really like what you write.

1:2:4 Not sure that it means much that one would not know that ratio. After 500 plus inspection in a year I just know whats normal looking. But thanks for the trivia I can spout off to make me seem smart. 

I disagree with the 20,000 being the base of the brood nest. I am well aware of the study that claims that, (it gets pushed pretty hard here), but it completely ignores what we "think" we know about Ethyl Oleate. Its more likely, from my point of view, that at 60k you get 30k and 30k. With the extra 10k in the box, the foragers get met at the door quicker, off loaded faster, and get free'd up to go back quicker. Then the foragers will never need to even come into the box.

I wrap with black 8 mil UV plastic from just below top entrance to just above bottom entrance. This should not have any impact on the air flow of the hive. All I am doing is reinforcing the propolis seal and adding passive heat. I have BroodMinders in some of my hives, and even when the cluster is a ways away from the sensor, the hives are almost always above ambient temp (+5 degrees minimum this winter). My body only heats itself but lots of heat leaks out of my skin.  In the cold climate I am in, dark wraps, dark boxes and lack of "excess" air flow causes the bees to poop sooner. There is a Finnish bee keeper on the site with great examples of how they seal the top with plastic to trap the heat in and the bees stay warmer and do better. Their ventilation is from front and back openings at the bottom. Remember, bees need moisture to eat honey and sugar, so you do not want to get rid of it, just keep it from condensing on top of the cluster. With that in mind we insulate the top to make the condensation form on the outer edges.

Andrew
Cross Plains Honey


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## Juhani Lunden

xphoney said:


> There is a Finnish bee keeper on the site with great examples of how they seal the top with plastic to trap the heat in and the bees stay warmer and do better. Their ventilation is from front and back openings at the bottom. Remember, bees need moisture to eat honey and sugar, so you do not want to get rid of it, just keep it from condensing on top of the cluster. With that in mind we insulate the top to make the condensation form on the outer edges.


 

Upper entrance plus lower entrance together with pore insulation on top makes a huge consumption, as we could see when comparing with Michael Palmer. I consider everything above 1,5kg/month (no brood rearing) excessive and as a sign of unsuitable bees. Normal is about 1kg or less.


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## jwcarlson

xphoney said:


> I wrap with black 8 mil UV plastic from just below top entrance to just above bottom entrance. This should not have any impact on the air flow of the hive. All I am doing is reinforcing the propolis seal and adding passive heat. I have BroodMinders in some of my hives, and even when the cluster is a ways away from the sensor, the hives are almost always above ambient temp (+5 degrees minimum this winter). My body only heats itself but lots of heat leaks out of my skin.  In the cold climate I am in, dark wraps, dark boxes and lack of "excess" air flow causes the bees to poop sooner. There is a Finnish bee keeper on the site with great examples of how they seal the top with plastic to trap the heat in and the bees stay warmer and do better. Their ventilation is from front and back openings at the bottom. Remember, bees need moisture to eat honey and sugar, so you do not want to get rid of it, just keep it from condensing on top of the cluster. With that in mind we insulate the top to make the condensation form on the outer edges.
> 
> Andrew
> Cross Plains Honey


Let's be honest, if we lived where it was 50+ degrees almost every day during the "winter", we wouldn't wrap either. 
My bees were cleansing at 7:30 when the sun hit their black wrapped hive this past weekend. Air temperature was 34 degrees and it was pretty calm. Microclimate... lol
It's warm where the cluster is and where the heat from the cluster rises to. Even with ambient air temperatures in the teens I can look through my top entrance and see bees working sugar blocks or wandering around on the top bars all winter long even if the cluster is quite a distance away.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Without brood that is, Juhani?

How early do your bees start brooding far up North? Ours usually start mid-February here down South.


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## Juhani Lunden

Yes, without brood. 
I usually don´t look into my hives (=take frames out) before mid May so I have no idea when they start brood rearing. I suppose willow blooming in the end of April gets it well into going.


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## BernhardHeuvel

I wouldn't be suprised if they'd had a small patch of brood by now.


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## Juhani Lunden

They say bees start brood rearing, sometimes as a measure to control water balance, sometime in February. It is hard to have a look; today 20cm snow above and all hive parts well frozen together.


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## JWChesnut

Very interesting commentary on the state of Dee's Bees, Feb. 2016


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## Barry

"eating a banana" . . .  guess he still believes in old wives' tales. It's not the banana or the black camera . . . it's the bees! I can be right in my hives with my black camera waving a banana around and they ignore me.


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## Vance G

Someone suggested to me putting a piece of ripe banana flesh on the top bars to combat chalk brood. From my experience I would recommend the hand you are waving the banana in be well gloved.


Barry said:


> "eating a banana" . . .  guess he still believes in old wives' tales. It's not the banana or the black camera . . . it's the bees! I can be right in my hives with my black camera waving a banana around and they ignore me.


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## Barry

My experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxtP0cUnh9w

Let's see your video.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?285570-Bananas-and-bees


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## Juhani Lunden

Well done 

Its an urban legend that something like weather or smells irritate bees. They get irritated by weather or smells IF they are that kin of crazy bees- good normal bees don´t do it. If you disagree with me, please spend more time finding good breeders.




Barry said:


> My experience.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxtP0cUnh9w
> 
> Let's see your video.


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## Harley Craig

do you really think weather doesn't play a role in attitude of the colony. Mine sure seem to get nippy about 4-6 hrs prior to a storm front moving through, at least it seems that way.


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## Oldtimer

Agree with that. I've never understood why people say alarm pheromone smells like bananas to me alarm pheromone smells kind of sweet acrid if there is such a thing, and not like bananas. But it may be my sense of smell I know some people smell things differently. Also I enjoy bananas and often have one in the lunch box and have never noticed any reaction at all.

But "_All the new age inner peace people were having a bad time_" was pretty funny, even Solomon has a sense of humor.


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## Michael Bush

Isomyl acetate aka isopentyl acetate is what is used in artificial banana flavoring. Oddly enough it is also used in artificial pear flavoring. It is also the main ingredient in honey bee alarm pheromone. It is also in bananas. I agree, by itself, it does not smell like bananas, but it does smell like artificial banana flavoring smells and is a constituent of what banana's smell like. In fact it is the same chemical as artificial banana flavoring.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoamyl_acetate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_honey_bee_pheromones#Alarm_pheromone
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK200983/ see section 5.1.2.5 last paragraph and continue on for the next several paragraphs.


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## Oldtimer

Well if there is real alarm pheremone in real bananas there certainly cannot be much. Based on the alarm levels of those bees in Barry's video I doubt they can smell it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxtP0cUnh9w

I too have tried pestering an open hive with a banana and the bees were about as alarmed as Barry's.


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## Michael Bush

>Well if there is real alarm pheremone in real bananas there certainly cannot be much.

I can't disagree with that. I'm just saying it's the same chemical. I also agree that to me it's not exactly the same (and the research says there are other constituents) even as the artificial banana There is something sharper (as you say "acrid") in the background of the smell.


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## Oldtimer

Michael Bush said:


> (and the research says there are other constituents) .


I was wondering something along the same lines.


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## JRG13

I think part of aggressive behavior is how the bees react to alarm pheromone. I think gentle hives, as a whole, just don't react to it where as aggressive hives my be considered a hyper-sensitive reaction.


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## Harley Craig

JRG13 said:


> I think part of aggressive behavior is how the bees react to alarm pheromone. I think gentle hives, as a whole, just don't react to it where as aggressive hives my be considered a hyper-sensitive reaction.


I think this line of thinking may be spot on, I have one hive in particular no matter how carefull I am I quickly get a whiff of that smell that tells us all its time to back out yet they don't really react to it a few head bumps that's it. Another hive in particular they are on me like white on rice long before I smell anything. Finally I leave you with the example of AHB. They are no different that EHB yet they react much more violently.....good post !


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## squarepeg

JRG13 said:


> I think part of aggressive behavior is how the bees react to alarm pheromone. I think gentle hives, as a whole, just don't react to it where as aggressive hives my be considered a hyper-sensitive reaction.


i believe that's right jrg. it seems to progress through the colony like a chain reaction, crescendo, and then pretty much stay that way until you close 'em up and give 'em a chance to simmer down.

i also believe that provoking a colony in that way tends to happen less with more time in the hive. the bees have a way of training the beekeeper as to what not to do to make them defensive, i.e. squishing a bee.

the most reaction i usually see is when i have to break a box off and it has drone brood laid up at the bottom and bridged to the top bars on the next body down. but it's manageable and doesn't last too long, especially if i take it easy after that.

i've only pinched one queen for aggressiveness so far. it was in a purchased 5 frame nuc that had overwintered and winter was just ending. even with proper smoking and what i thought was pretty minimal manipulation they covered me up at the face portion of my veil to the point of not being able to see.


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## JRG13

Yeah, not knowing the definitive mechanics of the response, it warrants more discussion. For example, some hives, as soon as you crack it, bees will come pouring out. Was this a pheromone response, where as soon as the bees sensed vibration, they emit an alarm response, or is it simply a genetic response to the hive being disturbed and no alarm pheromone was needed to initiate. I do believe though, that the bees that chase you and sting the heck out of everything in site though, that is most likely a hyper sensitive response to alarm/sting pheromone, where once they sense it, there's not stopping them from attacking and it's an immediate dominant trigger.


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