# swarm control methods



## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Although I don't have a large number of hives to confirm this method, I am confident that 'Opening the Sides of the Broodnest' significantly reduces swarming.

In simplest terms, I believe swarming is mainly due to: 
Large numbers of Wax Makers and insufficient numbers of Open Brood to be fed.

Two reasons:
1. It is mainly Wax Makers that leave in a swarm. When in swarm mode, they don't build much comb until after they have swarmed. It's as if they save it up for building new comb in a new home.

2. Giving a hive a frame of Open Brood in early stages of swarm preparation can cause the swarm preparation to be canceled.

'Opening the Sides of the Broodnest' deals with both of these factors at the same time.

An undrawn frame beside a brood frame can not be ignored by the bees. It is like the Broodnest is considered incomplete and the 'hole' must be filled with comb. The bees want stores directly next to the edge of the Broodnest.

So placing the undrawn frame beside the edge of brood 'Triggers' wax making. Once triggered, the wax makers continue making comb, such as in a super.

Because the undrawn frame is beside brood comb, the new comb is built at brood thickness.

The queen will often lay eggs in the new comb as it is being built, this both enlarges the Broodnest and more importantly increases the amount of Open Brood. My aim is also to have an unlimited Broodnest that is as large as the queen is able to cope with.

Purely based on their life cycle, anything less than 1/3 of Open Brood starts getting into swarming territory during swarm season. As it means that the Broodnest is being back filled.

I also use an upper entrance.

Once a beekeeper has sufficient drawn comb, less intensive methods such as Checkerboarding can be used.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Good thread sq.
Good stuff from Astrobee and MD.
What means "Cut-down splits"? My translator don't speeck beekenglish. Thank you!


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Here's my combo Lid/Base:








I use a hive mat on top of the frames to stop comb being built in the lid. A tie down strap is used around the hive to stop the lid from getting blown off. Entrance can be adjusted to whatever width required (see the unpainted sticks.)

Having both top and bottom entrances allows the hive to be cooled easier. As the air just flows one direction through the hive and the bees only need to fan at one entrance. Direction seems to change based on the humidity. So it may also contribute to reducing swarming as it helps to stop the hive from overheating.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> astrobee, can you describe how you provide the upper entrance?


squarepeg,

Thanks for starting this thread. 

My upper entrance consists of a shim above a queen excluder (gasp, yes I use QE's on every production hive). The 3/4" shim has a 3 x 1/2 inch slot in the front so the bees can easily access the supers without passing through the brood box(es). Some really hate shims as you'll get bridge comb from the QE to the bottom of the frames. This can pose issues when bottom supering. To avoid this, you can simply shift supers to provide a gap, or some people prefer to bore holes in their supers. I don't like boring holes in my honey boxes as it makes pulling honey during a dearth even more difficult. 

Recently I replied to a PM asking about how I do the cut-down split. I'll share here's what I sent:


Here's a link to a good description of a cut-down split: http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm

I do a slightly modified version because I don't remove all the open brood. Basically I pull the existing queen and enough resources to make a viable split. Everything else remains with the parent colony (even open brood). I want the parent colony as strong as possible as long as possible into the flow. I want the split just big enough to at least maintain itself and start to build up. After the main flow is over, colonies can be equalized. Again, timing is the key factor in maximizing the value of the cut-down. You really need to understand the signs of the main flow, which may be a challenge for new beekeepers. 

Please note, that in general, this doesn't work well if the colony is currently in swarm prep mode, particularly if there are swarm cells present. I've found that if there are swarm cells and you do a cut-down, the colony will very likely still swarm with the first virgin that emerges.

Another nice feature of the cut-down is that you get a nice brood break during a key mite build-up time. Actually, if you do the proper "bee math", you'll notice that you should have no capped brood at the time your new queen starts to lay her first eggs. This provides an excellent opportunity to use a "soft" treatment for mites. 

Additionally, it also provide a great opportunity to "change" genetics by introducing a ripe queen cell after all the brood is capped. Of course, this adds to the management burden by having to cut out cells from the previous queen, but will pretty much insure no swarm will occur.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> What means "Cut-down splits"? My translator don't speeck beekenglish. Thank you!


A "Cut-down Split" is when you remove the queen and as much younger "queenable" larva from the hive as possible just prior to a major flow. It effectively keeps the colony from swarming, the nurse bees still have older brood to tend to for a bit, and gives them a brood break as well. When employing this method you should super your hives heavily as they will produce quite a bit more honey as they have no brood to constantly feed.

At or near the end of the flow you give the colony a queen cell or introduce a queen back to the hive to make it queenright again.


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## honey jhar (Jun 5, 2014)

Astro Bee
1. Throttling back populations by removing 1 or 2 frames of brood and bees. These are used to help make up mating nucs. This is done as early as weather permits.

Would this be a 55 F day, or an early rare 60 something?


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## honey jhar (Jun 5, 2014)

duplicated post


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Last year, I minimized swarming by "opening" the brood nest by inserting empty foundationless frames. I think it minimized swarming, but I got way too much drone production.

This year, I will try the Demaree method. I know it is more work that Checkerboarding, but it appears to be quite effective, even when done by an inexperienced rookie.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

honey jhar said:


> Astro Bee
> 1. Throttling back populations by removing 1 or 2 frames of brood and bees. These are used to help make up mating nucs. This is done as early as weather permits.
> 
> Would this be a 55 F day, or an early rare 60 something?


Sorry, I wasn't clear. I wasn't referring only to the weather on the day of the split. "as early as weather permits" was meant to imply that the conditions throughout early spring have resulted in a colony that can afford to donate brood. I should have said, based upon the development of the colony, which, among other things, is weather dependent. 

In direct reply, yes on the day of the split I like it to be in the 60's. Typically, we get plenty of these days in March to do such a split. Just keep an eye on the 10 day forecast and make sure a prolonged freeze isn't predicted. I also like to see drones flying (at least walking the combs) when doing such a split. You just need to be flexible based upon the needs of the colony and balance that with your goals for the season.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

<Here's a link to a good description of a cut-down split: http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm>
<A "Cut-down Split" is when you remove the queen and as much younger "queenable" larva from the hive as possible just prior to a major flow.>
Thank you Astrobee. Thank you drlonzo. Thank you Michael Bush. :thumbsup:


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

drlonzo said:


> When employing this method you should super your hives heavily as they will produce *quite a bit more* honey as they have no brood to constantly feed.


I know that's how its supposed to work, but wondering how many years you've seen it play out that way? 

Personally, I've been doing cut-downs for 10 years and find that occasionally you'll get a huge producer, but on average the split colonies are much more average. In my experience, nothing will out perform a queenright colony that has zero intentions on swarming. The theory of no brood to look after sounds good, but I believe that the cut-down split tends to demoralize the colony somewhat. I could be wrong on the "why", but my observations suggest that the cut-down may not be as beneficial to honey yields as advertised. Of course, much better than pulling your bees out of the trees, which is why I still do them.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

AstroBee said:


> Typically, we get plenty of these days in March to do such a split.


are you grafting this early in the season astrobee?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

AstroBee said:


> I could be wrong on the "why", but my observations suggest that the cut-down may not be as beneficial to honey yields as advertised.


i notice that a lot of the honey that would have been placed in the honey supers ends up in the brood chamber(s) instead, and doesn't necessarily get moved up when the new queen starts laying.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

AstroBee said:


> I know that's how its supposed to work, but wondering how many years you've seen it play out that way?
> 
> Personally, I've been doing cut-downs for 10 years and find that occasionally you'll get a huge producer, but on average the split colonies are much more average. In my experience, nothing will out perform a queenright colony that has zero intentions on swarming. The theory of no brood to look after sounds good, but I believe that the cut-down split tends to demoralize the colony somewhat. I could be wrong on the "why", but my observations suggest that the cut-down may not be as beneficial to honey yields as advertised. Of course, much better than pulling your bees out of the trees, which is why I still do them.


How many years have i seen it play out that way? Not many honestly.
I use it to keep the queens that are "hell bent" on swarming out of the trees.
It gives me time to get some quality queens ready and put back into the hives.
I tend to believe the same as you AstroBee. I'd rather my production hives stay queenright.
Most of the hives i've done this to have only stayed queenless for a few weeks, but even then i put in frames of late open brood for them to keep the pheromones in the hive and the numbers up.

I have seen it play out to make more honey though, and I think that those out there that chase the Cut-Down splits hope for that. Myself all I want is to keep my bees out of the trees and in the boxes where I need them. Chasing swarms isn't something I want to do.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> the question is 'what is your main swarm control method?


As I mentioned in another post my approach two years ago here takes into account the ages of queens.
Queens with more than 1.5 to 2 years of age my experience tells me that they are more likely to swarm. Although cost me a bit to do it, because it could not even be necessary such a radical intervention, in early April , and with queens of this age I use the method "A walk away split". This standardized approach allows me to save time, that this time of year is a scarce commodity.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

AstroBee said:


> nothing will out perform a queenright colony that has zero intentions on swarming.


Exactly so. 



AstroBee said:


> I believe that the cut-down split tends to demoralize the colony somewhat.


And there is a decline in bees later, which cuts back honey production later, too.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I am also concern about the bees ending up on the tree too. Of the many swarm control
methods I have read, I think using a combination will do.
Lately I have been thinking to use the various methods I have read and seen
on you tube. One of which is to use a young Spring queen. Combine that with confining
the queen to the lower box on 2 frames of sealed broods with the rest foundation less frames. Follow by
moving all the open broods up to the top box with a QE under. Then a more dramatic method that I
saw on you tube was to cut all the broods out from the frames except the honey band and let the bees redraw all
the frames out again. Honey supers are added on top for the honey collection of course. This method is to trick the bees into
thinking to rebuild rather than to swarm since their nest got ruined. Is it possible to use several methods for swarm control? Or do you think it
is overly excessive?


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Deleted


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

To me the other methods suggested are about reducing population or being highly disruptive to the hive.



shinbone said:


> Last year, I minimized swarming by "opening" the brood nest by inserting empty foundationless frames. I think it minimized swarming, but I got way too much drone production.


That's why I use a strip of foundation to trigger wax making. As it acts as a guide to build worker size cells. You can also cut it vertically as Lauri does and place it in the middle of the frame. It means your foundation goes at least twice as far. Once they are building comb, foundation is not a problem and will be built on.

I typically use a strip that is a 1/4 of a sheet of foundation per frame and they end up building about 2/3 worker cells and 1/3 drone. But once the bees have enough drones they start building mainly worker cells in these frames anyway.

I may do more tests with the way Lauri does half sheets of foundation so that the worker comb is central to the frame and from top to bottom. That way drone cells are only on the sides of the frame.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

AstroBee said:


> squarepeg,
> 
> Thanks for starting this thread.
> 
> ...


Between you and Michael Bush that is pretty comprehensive


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> In my experience, nothing will out perform a queenright colony that has zero intentions on swarming.


And you could sell those colonies at 1000 bucks a pop. How many of those have you come across?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> I could be wrong on the "why", but my observations suggest that the cut-down may not be as beneficial to honey yields as advertised.


Theories are always based on assumptions. Depending on your flows you may never see a benefit to honey yields. Weather has to cooperate also.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

MattDavey said:


> That's why I use a strip of foundation to trigger wax making. As it acts as a guide to build worker size cells.


Mathew - Are you saying that if the foundationless frame used to open the brood nest early in the season has worker foundation as a starter strip, the bees will build it out as worker comb, not drone comb?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> are you grafting this early in the season astrobee?


Well, I try to. My target is get my first graft in by the end of March. I do like to see drones at least inside the hives (not just drone brood either). Also, this is typically when we see the first swarms in our area.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> i notice that a lot of the honey that would have been placed in the honey supers ends up in the brood chamber(s) instead, and doesn't necessarily get moved up when the new queen starts laying.


My observations exactly.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Acebird said:


> And you could sell those colonies at 1000 bucks a pop. How many of those have you come across?


I wouldn't sell for even $1000. How many? A good percentage each season. Read point 7 in post 1. Swarming is something you actively to identify and weed out through continual breeding.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks astrobee. i don't think any of my colonies will be up to splitting strength as early as march, but what i am considering is to donate one frame at a time of capped brood with adhering nurse bees from the largest colonies to the smallest ones in an effort to equalize them all. have you done anything similar to boost your colonies that come out of winter with smaller clusters?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

MattDavey said:


> 'Opening the Sides of the Broodnest'


Thanks Mattt for posting your ideas. I've been reading this in your posts for a couple of years, but have yet to give it a go. I do have a few questions, which have probably been answered in others post (sorry).

1. What is your seasonal target to begin with your approach (relative to first swarming or peak flow for your area)?
2. Does the expansion happen only at the boundary between brood and pollen, or would interior work too?
3. What size brood boxes do you run?
4. Do you use QEs
5. How successful is your approach? What percent do not swarm?
6. How many colonies are you managing?
7. Explain the theory behind why you think it works.
8. How much of the new comb is drone and how do you manage the excess drones?

Sorry for so many questions, but I may experiment with this next season.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

MattDavey said:


> I typically use a strip that is a 1/4 of a sheet of foundation per frame and they end up building about 2/3 worker cells and 1/3 drone. But once the bees have enough drones they start building mainly worker cells in these frames anyway.


I'll try this technique again. When I tried a few years ago I had some troubles because they built many drone cells.
I will enter later the frames this time. But there is some overlap of dates between the need to start this technique to prevent swarming and the drones brood in my apiaries. I'll look fine tune the timing because I agree with Matt that this time we have to give work to those "wax construction bees".


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

"In 1983 colonies headed by old queens constructed 2.5 times more swarm queen cells than those headed by young queens (significant at p < 0.01), and the construction period lasted 5 and 3 weeks, respectively (fig 3C). In 1984, colonies headed by old queens constructed 3.9 more swarm queen
cells than those with young queens (significant at p < 0.05) and the construction period was longer: 4 and 2 weeks, respectively (fig 3D, table I)." in https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00891233/document


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

eduardo, i had several colonies in 2014 that responded favorably to walt wright's checkerboarding. those colonies were making queen cells at the same time as other colonies that swarmed, but instead of swarming they just superceded their queen. as expected these colonies produced the most honey and will be the ones i graft from in 2015. i don't mark my queens so i can't say for sure, but i believe that all of my established colonies are replacing their queen every year either by swarming or supercedure. my stock is very hybridized, has feral contribution, and is showing natural resistance to mites. perhaps these traits are associated with each other.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> many thanks astrobee. i don't think any of my colonies will be up to splitting strength as early as march, but what i am considering is to donate one frame at a time of capped brood with adhering nurse bees from the largest colonies to the smallest ones in an effort to equalize them all. have you done anything similar to boost your colonies that come out of winter with smaller clusters?


No, generally I don't. I tend to agree with Michael Palmer that giving resources to smaller colonies is probably not the optimal way to proceed. He has a great video where he talks about his management approach (don't have that link right now). Of course there are always times when fault for under performing is outside the control of the bees, and in these cases, equalizing them may very well help. As you know, there's a critical mass that any colony needs to thrive, particularly in the spring, and a little boost may have a dramatic effect. However, if you got a colony that is under performing the previous season and small in the spring, then definitely do not prop them up and instead deploy MP's approach.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood ab and agreed. i have seen mp's videos and was inspired by them to put more effort into propagating bees. the one thing he does that i haven't tried is using nucs as 'brood factories' , i.e. using them to add brood to production colonies. keeping a few nucs around for that purpose makes sense, and it may be a way of improving production in the donor hives after a cut down split, perhaps by adding a frame or two of brood between the splitting and when the new queen starts laying.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> i don't mark my queens


I do not have marked queens also. I have records that tell me what month and year the queen of that hive was born. If the queen was replaced though I do not know.
Two scenarios are possible: if it is still original queen and have two years or more is "dangerous " and the technique is effective and adjusted to these cases, IMO; if it is a new queen and I did not realize what I get? Another daughter hive with a good genetic less likely to swarm (superseded previous queen without swarming and without the production was affected in a remarkable way); the hive with the queen mother will still produce in this year (I have at least two large flows that extend for 3.5 months to 4 months) .

My intention is just to give my contribution to somehow make up for what you guys have given me. What can be useful for you, leverage . What is not suitable for us, could another beesource participant, behind us, enjoy it.
sq you do not use a record of your hives?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> My intention is just to give my contribution to somehow make up for what you guys have given me. What can be useful for you, leverage . What is not suitable for us, could another beesource participant, behind us, enjoy it.
> 
> sq you do not use a record of your hives?


my sentiments exactly eduardo. yes, i am keeping fairly detailed notes on my hives.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Acebird said:


> And you could sell those colonies at 1000 bucks a pop. How many of those have you come across?


Do your bees try to swarm every year or something? I've never had one try to swarm that I inspected regularly. I did have my swarmy bees swarm since I don't manage that hive. I do tend to bottom super but I also manipulate frames around during inspections to keep the nest open. Being in a low to moderate flow area helps too, they get enough resources to build up well, but not able to put up boxes and boxes of honey.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

So, what do you all do when, despite our best efforts, find a colony that is in full blown swarm mode? Say, you open a hive and find multiple swarm cells, backfilled broodnest, thinned down queen? The two extremes are: breakup colony into nucs, and "grit your teeth" and do nothing.

What's your favorite technique in this situation?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

nuc or artificially swarm the queen and move her to a new yard, make splits with the rest.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

definitely break it up into nucs. the bees i am keeping are prone to afterswarming. i had a colony effectively swarm itself to death last year, setting an all time record of issuing five swarms with the remaining queen not getting mated.


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

AstroBee said:


> So, what do you all do when, despite our best efforts, find a colony that is in full blown swarm mode? Say, you open a hive and find multiple swarm cells, backfilled broodnest, thinned down queen? The two extremes are: breakup colony into nucs, and "grit your teeth" and do nothing.
> 
> What's your favorite technique in this situation?


There is an old beekeeper in one of the bee clubs I attend that says what he did in that situation when he was running three yards with 25 hives each and found a hive that had swarms cells already started. He would pinch the queen and destroy all of the swarm cells but two on one frame and most of the time he would not loose the swarm. I have not tried that myself but will in a situation where I didn't have the equipment and time to do anything else at that moment.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> i don't mark my queens so i can't say for sure, but i believe that all of my established colonies are replacing their queen every year either by swarming or supercedure.


I wouldn't consider this a good thing.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I wouldn't consider this a good thing.


you don't have to, but apparently the bees do ace. it's likely part of their survival program. take into account these are feral derivatives that varroa were not able to extinguish. brood breaking and heavy swarm impulse are likely part of that equation.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> 1. What is your seasonal target to begin with your approach (relative to first swarming or peak flow for your area)?
> 2. Does the expansion happen only at the boundary between brood and pollen, or would interior work too?
> 3. What size brood boxes do you run?
> 4. Do you use QEs
> ...


1. Start at least a few weeks before the usual swarm season. In general I've noticed that this is just before Apples blossom. (You can actually start as soon as you start seeing drones if you don't have any spare drawn comb.) It needs to be done at least 2 times during swarm season, around 2 weeks apart.

2. I prefer not to insert new frames inside the Broodnest, especially before swarm season. It forces the bees to have heat a larger volume Broodnest and if the weather drops suddenly they may not cope well, so may end up with some chilled brood and then can get chalk brood as a result.

First, the outermost frames of the brood box are moved up into a new box on top, with these two frames directly beside each other, centred in the box. 

Then working in from the outside of the brood box, find the two frames that are the outer edges of the Broodnest (nest, not box) and place a new frame beside each of those (on the outside edge)

3. I use 10 frame deep brood boxes. I've wintered bees in both a single deep and double deep and long hives. Unlimited Broodnest, so they usually end up having three boxes with brood in them by the main flow.

4. No queen excluder.

5. No swarms that I know of (when I have Opened the Sides more than once in a season.)

When I have only Opened the Sides just the once (which was just before swarm season) the issue was that the bees did not move into the new box, they just emptied out the comb, and so they swarmed. It appears that initially there needs to be at least two drawn combs together in a new box before they consider it part of their hive. (These may still get emptied out.) The rest of the box can then be Checkerboarded with drawn and empty frames. The drawn frames can be from the second visit, 2 weeks later when two more frames are moved up from below in order to Open the Sides of the Broodnest.

6. I have only managed 6 hives the last few years. 2 of these are long hives with two queens, so large populations! Would love to see more people testing this method as well.

7. What I said in my first post pretty much covers it. Keeping the Wax Makers busy (as these are the main ones in a swarm) and ensuring that there is ample Open Brood for nurse bees to feed.

8. Typically about 1/3 of frames are initially drone comb when using foundation strips. Once the bees have enough drones, they make mainly worker comb in the brood area. I don't see why you need to manage drone population as the bees know what they want. (But we don't have Varroa Mite here either.)

Note: It's not unusual for the queen to be superceded a few weeks before Sumer solstice when they don't swarm (here anyway). If I want to do a split, I prefer to do it at this time also. As this reduces population in time for the summer dearth. It also means the new queen doesn't slow down, so produces a larger population to go into winter with. Splitting at this time may help deal with mites as well.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> you don't have to, but apparently the bees do ace. it's likely part of their survival program.


Myth or not I have witnessed the increased production of a second year queen. If the bees are replacing their queen every year I am wondering if there is something that you are doing to cause this. I am not sure why beekeepers replace queens every year unless it is for consistency. For a colony to do it makes me wonder.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Of course there is a reason. Top on my list would be that the beekeeper is checking every couple of weeks and/or doing manipulations to prevent swarming.
If you let the bees swarm as they would on their own, you would not be concerned about the bees superceding.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deknow said:


> Of course there is a reason. Top on my list would be that the beekeeper is checking every couple of weeks and/or doing manipulations to prevent swarming.


I don't follow. Are you saying the manipulations to prevent swarming are causing the bees to supercede their queen? Then how would you ever get a second or third year queen?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

as deknow suggests, a colony in the wild that fails to get off a reproductive swarm for two or three years would be a failure from nature's point of view.

queens certainly can live that long, but to have them in the same hive year after year is more likely an artifact of beekeeper management.

michael palmer made a good point in another thread about how queens in the far north have a shorter brooding season and may have a longer effective life.

also given the consideration that in the far north a colony has to be larger and heavier with stores to make it through the long winter, and if you buy into walt wright's idea that a colony is programmed as to whether or not it can afford to issue a reproductive swarm, (i.e. leaving the parent colony strong enough to get itself to back overwintering strength while still issuing the swarm early enough to have a reasonable chance to get established for overwintering), then you would expect some colonies to not issue swarms in some years.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

MattDavey said:


> 4. No queen excluder.


Thanks for the reply. 

Regarding the QE, do you have a guess on how it might impact the success of your approach? Personally, I don't see why using a QE would have any impact on your proposed technique. 

Do you adhere to a specific requeening schedule? If not, do you see greater failed attempts using your approach with older queens. One would certainly believe so, but I just wanted to hear what you have observed.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

This thread can drift anywhere while I fumble with my keyboard but I have a few comments to this point.
Squarepeg has one of the few strains of bees that can shake off the effects of checkerboarding (CB). Some don't swarm, but a few do. I looked over his shoulder while he was doing the routine, and what he did I thought should meet the requirements for prevention. Some swarmed. We still don't know why it failed, but I suspect that strain of bees has an increased sensitivity to the break in functional comb at box joints. Some build brood voume to a box joint and exit to swarm preps. In contrast, I have never seen a colony swarm when the recommendations were followed. Eight years with 20 colonies per.

CB does take some getting used to. The increased brood volume makes experienced beeks panic, and take some other action. Concentrated bees 6 feet high makes the beek certain that swarming is imminent, and he can't believe he doesn't have to do something else. So, he adds his own "improvements" and calls it a failure. Takes some un/relearning.

For some months recently, have been changing my presentation to emphasize the additional honey resulting from CB. For the experienced beekeeper who knows that less swarming increases honey production, changing his management for the small incease is not worth the trouble. (Assuming whatever he is doing now keeps swarming to some minimum level.) But the increased production is not limited to the effects of keeping a few from swarming. All colonies can double production. IMO that should interest any beekeeper who peddles honey.

Three features of CBing create the doubling of production honey or better:
The CBed colony starts overhead storage of nectar in the buildup. When your colonies are backfilling the broodnest, the CBed will be storing raw nectar overhead. The typical here will accumulate two supers of nectar to the uncapping depth in the swarm prep period. At the start of "main flow" they will start extending cell depth and capping that nectar already in place. (Curing with heat rise in the meantime)

The broodnest does not stop growing with the swarm prep period. They do not start backfilling for another month, or so. This broodnest growth through the swarm prep period often generates twice the population. Some have the equivalent of 3 deeps of brood before they start broodnest reduction.

More bees make more honey.

Walt


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good morning walt, i was hoping you would chime in, many thanks! 

i have received several pm's regarding walt's checkerboading technique. i think it's better if the questions are posted here to that all may benefit and participate in the discussion.

it is also well worth obtaining walt's full manuscript entitled 'nectar management, principles and practices', and for that pm walt directly.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> Squarepeg has one of the few strains of bees that can shake off the effects of checkerboarding (CB). Some don't swarm, but a few do.


Could he possibly have an africanized gene for swarming but not for aggressiveness?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

To get the original queen and hive into the 2nd and 3rd season simply keep her
hive small but enough to overwinter them by moving her to a nuc hive and requeening the
original hive with a Spring and Fall queen. The belief is that a young 1st year queen will be less
likely to swarm because her strong pheromone can keep the hive together.

And AHB is known for the aggressiveness over their swarming behavior. The reason for the swam is
to keep the mite population down so I have read. There is no such thing as african genetic without the 
aggressiveness with them. If there is then I have not seen such bees yet.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> Regarding the QE, do you have a guess on how it might impact the success of your approach? Personally, I don't see why using a QE would have any impact on your proposed technique.


Yes, you could use a queen excluder with this method, but you really need to check on the hive a week or two later to make sure they are using the new box above it. Both top and bottom entrances should be used when a queen excluder is on a hive. This is for both air flow and to allow foragers direct access to the supers.

I don't use one because it acts as a boundary, and if the bees can find an excuse to define a boundary for the area they consider their hive, they will. As Walt said, a break in the comb between boxes is enough for this to occur. A queen excluder is a much stronger reason for the boundary to be set there. Even with a number of drawn combs in the box above, expansion may not occur into the new box. They may instead be emptying the comb and moving it down. That's why I suggest to Open the Sides a few times during swarm season.



AstroBee said:


> Do you adhere to a specific requeening schedule? If not, do you see greater failed attempts using your approach with older queens. One would certainly believe so, but I just wanted to hear what you have observed.


I haven't had a schedule, as the bees have been doing a good job at superseding when required. As the hives are producing large populations I suspect the queens are only lasting two seasons. (Haven't marked them for a couple of years).

The most common time to supersede seems to be a few weeks before summer solstice. A bit of a pain to find the queen at this time of year because the population is near maximum.

I have tried OTS on a couple of brood frames and moved them to the top of the hive at this time of year and produced a few queens. In one hive, the old queen was killed (either by the new queen or the bees), but the new queen started laying in the honey super, rather than the brood nest. Another time, the old and new queen worked the same nest for months.

I also saw supersedure in early spring this season in one side of my 2 queen, long hive. It was lagging behind the other side's population (as they were separate at this time), so I gave it a frame of capped brood on a couple of visits and by main flow it had caught up.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beepro said:


> There is no such thing as african genetic without the
> aggressiveness with them.


Isn't that like saying you don't have any African genetics in your family because your skin is white?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

MattDavey said:


> Yes, you could use a queen excluder with this method, but you really need to check on the hive a week or two later to make sure they are using the new box above it. Both top and bottom entrances should be used when a queen excluder is on a hive. This is for both air flow and to allow foragers direct access to the supers.
> 
> I don't use one because it acts as a boundary, and if the bees can find an excuse to define a boundary for the area they consider their hive, they will. As Walt said, a break in the comb between boxes is enough for this to occur. A queen excluder is a much stronger reason for the boundary to be set there. Even with a number of drawn combs in the box above, expansion may not occur into the new box. They may instead be emptying the comb and moving it down. That's why I suggest to Open the Sides a few times during swarm season.


Thanks again Matt.

I really do not want this thread to turn into yet another QE debate, although I do agree with your usage statements above, I do not agree with your "boundary" assessment. As you can tell, I a very strong advocate for QE for those who have 20+ colonies and need efficiency when pulling honey. Beekeepers with a few colonies really don't need QEs. One thing that can make a difference is get the QE's on EARLY. They then get "integrated" into the hive and are not seen as a boundary at all. I'm interested in your concept not because I'm having problems with swarming. Out of my 60 colonies I get around 3 to 4 colonies that swarm each spring. I find that an acceptable number, but if using additional methods could reduce that to zero, then all the better. I may try your technique this spring to see if I can improve my percentage. I can also see this as a perfect opportunity to get more drones.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

One of the painful processes I find with swarm prevention in the spring is going through so many boxes to find the queen and brood and to check for swarm cells. Last year a Scandinavian beek mentioned a system where the queen was confined to the top box over an excluder and as her brood was capped the queens box was moved up and the capped brood moved to under the excluder, Maybe the queen had 2 boxes to brood in? As the capped brood was moved out new comb was brought in. Has anyone tried this out, I was thinking to try a few hives in this way next spring and see what happens.
Johno


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

johno said:


> queen was confined to the top box over an excluder and as her brood was capped the queens box was moved up and the capped brood moved to under the excluder


Sounds like an inverted Demaree. Perhaps there is less lifting involved in this approach. Is that advertised as one of the benefits? In Demaree, the queen is kept below and brood above, which serves as an added bonus of keeping the queen out of your honey supers. Seems to me if you're going to do that level of manipulation, it might be better to simply Demaree. Regardless, not sure how well either of these scales to large number of colonies.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

"*make lots of queens from your most swarm resistant colonies*."

In my opinion the genetic approach to the question "swarming" should not be overlooked. This is my first front in preventing swarming. Select from and to less prone to swarming colonies. Astrobee how do you do the evaluation of colonies less likely to swarm? I do using the data from the observation of two years (the best) or one year (acceptable).


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Last year I did what I thought was the Demaree. I could not see destroying all the Queen cells. At the end of 10 days I would check the top box and if there were QC inside I would place that and a frame of brood into a queen castle (max of 2 frames and 2 cells per hive per manipulation Removing all other QC). Replaced frames with drawn until I ran out and started using foundation. I only did this to the one hive per yard (in 3 outyards, home yard I tried Walt’s checkerboard again). I had zero swarms, one box I missed the QC and ended up with two queens (I did a split). It was a lot of work. Bees drawn more foundation than I had the previous 2 years, more honey, and since I started sooner on my nucs they went in bigger (8F with 2F feeder). I did feed them a lot more. Both of the checkerboard hives died in November, I have about 70 lbs of honey on each I need to extract after Christmas is cleaned up.
So I guess it was Demaree, with a cut down split with opening the brood nest?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Astrobee, doing a simple Demaree is fine for about 2 weeks then if the queen has filled the brood area you again have to move eggs and larvae up to the nurse bees on top which would be a lot more manipulation than just moving the queens box up and capped brood down. So as the hive gets taller you would only be working the boxes on the top of the pile not the boxes on the bottom of the pile.
Johno


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> "*make lots of queens from your most swarm resistant colonies*."
> 
> In my opinion the genetic approach to the question "swarming" should not be overlooked. This is my first front in preventing swarming. Select from and to less prone to swarming colonies. Astrobee how do you do the evaluation of colonies less likely to swarm? I do using the data from the observation of two years (the best) or one year (acceptable).


Eduardo,

I think that we can get so focused on hive manipulation techniques we neglect one of the biggest factors, genetics. My experience is that some bees are much less likely to swarm than others. My biggest tool in accessing less swarm prone colonies is to mark all my queens. Yes, this is a burden, but I see no other way to be totally sure.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

johno said:


> Astrobee, doing a simple Demaree is fine for about 2 weeks then if the queen has filled the brood area you again have to move eggs and larvae up to the nurse bees on top which would be a lot more manipulation than just moving the queens box up and capped brood down. So as the hive gets taller you would only be working the boxes on the top of the pile not the boxes on the bottom of the pile.
> Johno


Sure, I realize that the number of boxes manipulated is less for what you posted, but in practice how many times do you really need to Demaree a given colony? Have you found in practice you need to do it every two weeks? Another issue for the "Scandinavian" approach is that you will get a progressively greater number of boxes below, which I suspect are then to be designated for honey storage, right? This doesn't seem to utilize the bee's natural tendency to store above. Having never tried this, I really have no clue how it may work out. Give it a go, keep good records and report back next June.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think there is a bit of a tendency to have the swarmy colonies providing cells and splits and so becoming mothers to more colonies. The ones that are not threatening to swarm but are busy making honey we are reluctant to disrupt them with splitting and queeen rearing activities. That happened to me last season. I am determined this summer to requeen and raise replacements from my stay at home bees not the ones that get swarmy.

I will use a form of Demaree useing a double screen Snelgrove board on more hives next summer. Twice I have had swarms that did not seem to follow the common pattern of causes. Both seem to have followed long cold and rainy spells. Carniolans! That caught me by surprise.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

The lessons passed along from those who built and use the Apidictor, and some comments by Michael Bush over the years tell the following:

The bees start building drone comb, you should know the game is on - swarming is in their minds, but they have not yet decided to do so. When the bees run out of storage space, they begin back-filling the brood chamber with nectar-curing-into-honey. Time for action.

If mites are already a problem, a brood break with a treatment is a good idea. Demaree's method was to remove the queen from most of the brood and bees.

Clipping a valuable breeder queen's wings prevents her from leaving, but not the daughter queen.

The best way to delay swarming is to remove 2 frames from the brood nest, replacing them with empty foundationless frames, but foundation also works.

Re-queening and dividing the colony into increasers and adding a box of foundation frames above, or into nucleus colonies also works, but you lose honey production.

Another option is to build a 2-queen system before the main flow. This arrangement does not last long - the bees eventually choose one queen over the other. BEFORE that happens, divide the colonies into single-queen honey producer, increaser, or nucleus colonies.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

KC, how about giving the original hive a newly mated queen and pull the original queen
into a nuc. Then use the old queen in the nuc to give more capped broods to the original hive. Add
more space and super them up.
Has anyone seen a first year mated queen swarming? From what I have read that a 1st year queen
will keep all her workers together and not likely to swarm. Is this true? 

What about using a laying queen made from last year on September? Will the hive still swarm if she is still
consider a newly mated queen?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> This doesn't seem to utilize the bee's natural tendency to store above.


I would think the bees would backfill the top box almost instantly making the queen shut down because she can't go to the empty boxes below. Doesn't this look like a swarm generator?


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## scituatema (Aug 30, 2014)

September mated queen can still swarm.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I run a deep and medium as a brood nest. When the weather is warm (high 50's at nite) I remove the medium, shake ALL the bees down to the deep. Then I place a medium super of drawn comb above the deep, then a QE, then the medium I had just shaken and possible another medium of drawn comb or foundation (depending upon what I have). Gives the queen plenty of room to lay and when the brood from the "shaken" box hatches, that is their new honey super.............. works for me a great deal of the time...........


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good post snl. i have a couple of hives that are now a single deep with three medium supers. the broodnest is all in the supers and the deeps aren't being used yet. i'm thinking about pushing the queen down into the deep and placing an excluder between the deep and the supers once another round or two of brood emerges and the supers get a little more crowded. i'm guessing we are about three weeks away from the start of swarm season here.


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

snl said:


> I run a deep and medium as a brood nest. When the weather is warm (high 50's at nite) I remove the medium, shake ALL the bees down to the deep. Then I place a medium super of drawn comb above the deep, then a QE, then the medium I had just shaken and possible another medium of drawn comb or foundation (depending upon what I have). Gives the queen plenty of room to lay and when the brood from the "shaken" box hatches, that is their new honey super.............. works for me a great deal of the time...........


Do they not start queen cells in the medium with the brood above the excluder with that seperation from the queen?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

They are not going to start queen cells unless the queen doesn't have any room to lay eggs or she is not laying enough eggs.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sterling said:


> Do they not start queen cells in the medium with the brood above the excluder with that seperation from the queen?


Yes, on occasion they do as I do have both top and bottom entrances. So, I'll just keep putting supers on and run it as a two queen colony until I harvest the honey........then sometimes, I'll split the hive other times, I'll kill one of the queens, other times I just let "them" work it out and to the victor belongs the spoils.............


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I have 2 hives that seem quite strong. Lots of porch activity, bringing in pollen and orienting behaviour mid afternoon.
They have been in winter set up..2 deeps, a feed rim/spacer with a quilt box above.
I noticed they had built a lot comb in the feeder rim...some with nectar and some with brood comb at the purple eyed stage.

Today I went into these hives snd rearranged them.

I put a dadant of empty comb on the bottom board, then the upper deep, then the lower deep. I pulled out a frame just outside the brood on each side of the now upper deep and replaced them with a frame from which most of the comb had been cut out. 
I then put alternating frames of honey and emty drawn comb in 2 dadants and put them above the deeps. Then an inner cover with a syrup feeder above that hole, then the top cover.

I did the same with the other hive. It will be interesting to see if they swarm later on or not.
My understanding is they put more nectar above, then nectar gathering will slow down, the brood nest will contract, the bottom dadant will fill with pollen and the upper supers will switch from nectar to capped honey.
Time will tell.
Hope to get into few more hives if rain holds off tomorrow.


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## popeye (Apr 21, 2013)

Good thread for me


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

AnnaMaesHoney, a trap out method should work for your
situation. Use a ladder to reach up if the hive entrance
is too high. Once they are that high they will not come
down to find your swarm traps. Do a search here on
trap out for the how to. And you tube has good vids on
the how to too. Good luck!


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

from a commercial view I may not see a hive that has cells for another 7-10 days. there is no practical swarm control method for my situation. depending on how many cells they have I make up 3-5 nucs with a cell. this is the best I can do. once a hive decides to swarm they will. this is the nature of bees. production suffers but it helps keep numbers up. before they get in this condition a super of fdn and lots of room helps. no two yrs are ever the same. some yrs they never swarm and others are all want to do.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"make lots of queens from your most swarm resistant colonies."

"For years our bee journals have been printing reams of articles on the question of a non-swarming strain of bees. It has always seemed to me there was a lot of time wasted advocating such an improbable accomplishment, because nature would hardly yield to an arrangement that in itself might destroy the species. If accomplished it would be tantamount to breeding the mating instinct out of domestic animals." --P.C. Chadwick ABJ, April 1936


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> >"make lots of queens from your most swarm resistant colonies."
> 
> "For years our bee journals have been printing reams of articles on the question of a non-swarming strain of bees. It has always seemed to me there was a lot of time wasted advocating such an improbable accomplishment, because nature would hardly yield to an arrangement that in itself might destroy the species. If accomplished it would be tantamount to breeding the mating instinct out of domestic animals." --P.C. Chadwick ABJ, April 1936


Hmmm. Just to be clear, there's a BIG difference between "swarm resistant" and "swarm proof". Nobody is suggesting the later is possible or even desirable. There is without question (in my experience) a definite difference in swarming tendencies amongst the bees we keep. To suggest otherwise would then seem to mean that swarming is not a trait that can be manipulated through breeding. I don't believe that is the case.


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