# Got a Mess in the Hive



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Treat it like a cut out. Rubber band the comb into some frames and put them into a Lang.

I empathize with your predicament.

I'm trying something different to deal with the issue. I've screwed some top bars under the top bar from a medium frame to start the bars off straight in a lang. I'll transfer to the top bar hive as they get built up.

Otherwise, I'm tossing the top bar hive, but saving as much comb as possible. Topbar hives are alot more work than a lang. But, you do get plenty of experience dealing with comb issues as well as a greater appreciation for the Langstroth hive.

This will be my third attempt. 1st year. it was a hard winter and water got in. 2nd year, the mice got in.


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## gjd (Jan 26, 2011)

I generally had ok comb except for 3 places where they wanted to curve one end onto the adjacent bar, even though the first several combs in the hive were perfect. After timid attempts to cut it or bend it back, I finally decided they had gotten used to a particular shape in that spot and would be more persistent than me. I marked those 3 bar pairs, let them build the comb into a solid double unit, and moved the pairs together when inspecting. They became very solid, propolized at the bars and connected in several places in the comb. I tried to place straight bars next to them to keep things lined up overall, which either worked or I got lucky. I couldn't get them perfectly centered, either-- once they started building fat off-center comb, trying to adjust comb with spacers and special width bars just didn't get me anywhere. My colder climate (MA) may have reduced comb failure from heat, but I had amazing moisture and mold in the hive, possibly due to a partly-shady location. 

They are very interesting hives to play with, but from my one hive-year experience and reading lots of others, they are somewhat unstable in the sense that there is a lot of variation in behavior and outcome from small differences in environment, design and handling.


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## [email protected] (May 12, 2010)

There is a reason why the overwhelming number of beekeepers use the traditional Langstroth hive. Get a real hive and focus on taking good care of the bees. Bees dont need a new kind of hive, just good care.


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## gjd (Jan 26, 2011)

Actually, I really liked mine in some ways. I learned a lot about bee behavior from it that I wouldn't have from Langstroths. If you want to produce honey I wouldn't bother, but if you're interested in bees it's well worth doing to see them in a different situation. Any hobby has subspecialties where more experienced people do more difficult, less rote techniques; I'd personally put TBHs in that category.


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## b haley (Mar 1, 2012)

> Any hobby has subspecialties where more experienced people do more difficult, less rote techniques; I'd personally put TBHs in that category.


I am new and have started with a THB. So far so good with no issues, but I know that could change at any time. For now I am getting exactly what I wanted from it. I wonder if the more experienced people who have langs find the TBH to be difficult just from an expectation perspective.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

b haley said:


> I am new and have started with a THB. So far so good with no issues, but I know that could change at any time. For now I am getting exactly what I wanted from it. I wonder if the more experienced people who have langs find the TBH to be difficult just from an expectation perspective.


It's like the differances of transmissions for cars and trucks. The people that are used to driving with an automatic transmission
hate standard transmissions, or the other way around. Both transmissions work for what they're designed to do.
Getting used to driving one or the other, or switching between the two is where people start having problems with them.
Now apply this to the differances in a TBH or Lang hive. Right now I'm having trouble learning about my Lang hive.
I keep trying to inspect it like a TBH. I can't figure out how to get the frames back in without squishing bees.
I'm ready to cut out my Lang box and hang them in a TBH.


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## efaure (Apr 30, 2012)

Well said.


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## Scottsman (May 1, 2011)

I think I'll empty it out into a Lang and take it up in the Mountains and use it for a swarm trap. I would like to see if there are any feral bees left in the North Georgia Mountains where I grew up. I remember them being very dark colored and mean when watching my folks cut them out of trees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would build at least one frame (or more) and cut some combs and tie them in the frame. One good straight comb (which the frame will provide) leads to another.


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## CreekHouse Honey (May 15, 2012)

We captured a wild hive recently and attached some of their comb to the frames with rubber bands. I ran out half way thru and used green floral wire to tie the rest. The rubber bands are beginning to break and fall apart. The wire is working great! Just in case you decide to move your comb over


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## 6470zzy (Mar 13, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> There is a reason why the overwhelming number of beekeepers use the traditional Langstroth hive. Get a real hive and focus on taking good care of the bees. Bees dont need a new kind of hive, just good care.


Curious as to what you mean by a "real hive?" and in case I am missing something, how is a top bar hive a "new kind of hive?" 

Cheers


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## jim314 (Feb 12, 2011)

Steven Ogborn said:


> Right now I'm having trouble learning about my Lang hive.
> I keep trying to inspect it like a TBH. I can't figure out how to get the frames back in without squishing bees.
> I'm ready to cut out my Lang box and hang them in a TBH.


Steven, don't quit your lang, keep it as a learning experiment like I am doing with the TBH. I agree you do squish more bees with a lang. But I smothered some bees this weekend in the TBH by trying to correct some errant comb and a large piece of comb I was cutting out dropped to the bottom of the hive with bees on it. I'm enjoying both types of hives.
Of course the bees may not be enjoying my intrusions.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

OK, Jim. I'm not gonna get rid of it. I was just joking. I'm only gonna get more. Just gotta get my learning curve to curve.


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## bmac1985 (Jul 19, 2011)

CreekHouse Honey said:


> We captured a wild hive recently and attached some of their comb to the frames with rubber bands. I ran out half way thru and used green floral wire to tie the rest. The rubber bands are beginning to break and fall apart. The wire is working great! Just in case you decide to move your comb over


Hi, I have the cross comb problem with my tbh. I have seen several references to rubber bands and reattaching, but no really clear directions. Do you know of any links for this? Most of the cross comb has brood and is in the "brood section of the hive so I planned on leaving it alone and focus on straightening the honey making portion of the hive.


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## MacNachtan (May 1, 2012)

Bmac1985, try using hair clips to repair your crossed comb. You have to work carefully, especially with new comb, but it worked for me. You just 1) cut the crossed comb off of the top bar, 2) loosely attach the clip to the top bar with twist-ties or plastic zip ties, then 3) use the clip to grab on to the comb and tighten up the twist/zip ties until the comb is flush with the bottom of the top bar and centered as well. Jump to 6:45 in the video below to see it done.

Matt M.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myBsToAMnNk&list

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o06n-E2KgIU/Tw0Ox8lNLTI/AAAAAAAAAys/Wlt-kR9yOaY/s400/Hair_Clips.jpg


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## bmac1985 (Jul 19, 2011)

CreekHouse Honey said:


> We captured a wild hive recently and attached some of their comb to the frames with rubber bands. I ran out half way thru and used green floral wire to tie the rest. The rubber bands are beginning to break and fall apart. The wire is working great! Just in case you decide to move your comb over


Hi, I have the cross comb problem with my tbh. I have seen several references to rubber bands and reattaching, but no really clear directions. Do you know of any links for this? Most of the cross comb has brood and is in the "brood section of the hive so I planned on leaving it alone and focus on straightening the honey making portion of the hive.


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## bmac1985 (Jul 19, 2011)

Matt, thanks! 
Are you the guy who did the "Out of the blue sky" clips on YouTube? I learned a lot from those. Thanks again.
Mac


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Even with frames there are a lot of different techniques. Without frames you have to adjust them even more because of differences in the strength of the wax (new wax is very soft) the weight of the comb (honey comb is much heavier than brood) and other factors. Many of the methods you do find (hair clip etc.) will not work except with old brood comb. So it's hard to come up with "the one" method. I would build a frame and use rubber bands around the frame to hold the comb in, or build "swarm ketching frames" (see the plans section on beesource) and use those. Everything else is pretty iffy or just too difficult to do. It's hard enough to hold a comb in a frame while you rubber band it. It's even harder to try to hold a soft comb and build some kind of sling around it to keep it from falling. In the end it will take a bit of practice and trial and error to get the hang of it, especially without some kind of frame.


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## brianbonner (May 10, 2012)

As a new bee keeper, so take it for what it is, from what I am reading, I think allot of the problem arises from not paying close attention to a new install on the TBH. 1 3/8ths bars are great for brood but too small for homey comb. Without a window this is a challenge I am taking seriously. I noticed, my bees doing perfect until about bar 10 and then I noticed the comb going off to the rear of the hive just a smidge, so this is where I installed my 1/4" spacers to widen the bars, I may still have to perform a correction, but I am hoping it will now self correct. I do have nice 1/2" ribs running down the bars. if they do not self center, I will need to remove the slightly off center move it back and put in fresh bars where they were located and try and get the bees to do the work or put in extra spacers to try and get the symmetry back in the hive, the latter is likely what i will do as I want to take a learn from the bees approach.

Maybe, if you play with using spacers you can get them back on center?

I don't know but I find this fascinating.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>As a new bee keeper, so take it for what it is, from what I am reading, I think allot of the problem arises from not paying close attention to a new install on the TBH. 1 3/8ths bars are great for brood but too small for homey comb. 

Actually it's too small for brood. That should be 1 1/4". They build the honey more consistently when I go 1 1/2".


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## brianbonner (May 10, 2012)

I know that was just mis-reading michael but 1-3/8ths is 1/8th bigger than 1-1/4 hehe


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

anyone play with any of the new light cured resins to re-attach?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I know that was just mis-reading michael but 1-3/8ths is 1/8th bigger than 1-1/4 hehe 

Sorry. Not what I meant to say. 1 3/8" is too big for brood and too small for honey...


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

bmac1985 said:


> Matt, thanks!
> Are you the guy who did the "Out of the blue sky" clips on YouTube? I learned a lot from those. Thanks again.
> Mac


You're thinking about McCartney Taylor. His screen name on Beesource is outofabluesky also.
He doesn't come here very much.


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## MacNachtan (May 1, 2012)

"Matt, thanks! 
Are you the guy who did the "Out of the blue sky" clips on YouTube? I learned a lot from those. Thanks again.
Mac"

Not I...just found them useful as well and the hair clip trick worked for me, so thought I would suggest it.

Matt M.


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## brianbonner (May 10, 2012)

I like the simplicity of 1-1/4 & 1-1/2 other research says 1-3/8 and 1-5/8ths which is what I have now 1-3/8 with 1/4 spacers. Not using spacers means I have to know how many 1-1/4 & 1-/2 bars to fill the hive and if the bees want more or less 1-1/4 I will have to cut a spacer for the back to make up the difference & close it up right?

I need a table saw


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## gigis3 (Mar 28, 2012)

About a year ago I downloaded a raido program and some guy was talking about his tbh'sin Colorado.
I looked at his web site and was impressed..take a look..no I'm not his agent..but something to think about..I'm a Lang beek, but thinking about getting a tbh, next year..it's seems those into tbh, are most for the bees and not the honey...I only collect in October. North west New Jersey...thanks
Www.backyard hives.com


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## gigis3 (Mar 28, 2012)

Sorry
www.backyardhive.com


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If it was a question of ripping all of the top bars, I'd make them all 1 1/4" and a lot of 1/4" spacers for the honey area. But since one by twos are 1 1/2" I don't have to rip those... and it's easier not to.


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## brianbonner (May 10, 2012)

That is a really good site, the hives overpriced though, and they have done allot of experimenting to save us some time as MB seems to have done. The hives are for honey and beeswax of course, not only for the bees, but a partnership with the bees


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## brianbonner (May 10, 2012)

I was thinking the same thing on the 1x2s but you said they got off track in the brood area no?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I was thinking the same thing on the 1x2s but you said they got off track in the brood area no? 

Yes, so I cut those down to 1 1/4" and left the rest 1 1/2".


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## VeggieGardener (Oct 4, 2011)

Steven Ogborn said:


> It's like the differances of transmissions for cars and trucks. The people that are used to driving with an automatic transmission
> hate standard transmissions, or the other way around. Both transmissions work for what they're designed to do.
> Getting used to driving one or the other, or switching between the two is where people start having problems with them.
> Now apply this to the differances in a TBH or Lang hive. Right now I'm having trouble learning about my Lang hive.
> ...


Great analogy! A lang is more like an automatic transmission and a top bar is akin to a standard transmission... each has applications that they are better suited for.

I'm curious about those with cross comb issues, how precise were you in making sure that your hives were level from end to end and front to back? Wondering if that could be part of the problem. Also what kind of comb guides are you using on the bars?

I have one hive with comb that is perfectly straight from one end to the other and another that has a slight curve toward the ends of some of the bars, but not enough to cause a problem when moving the bars.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

Mine were as level in both directions as I could get them. A brand new hive with a new package installed.
They started building comb, not following the comb guides, but off of the queen cage.
My comb guides were the waxed filled groove. I haven't had any real problems since.


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## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

What we did with apparent success was: level the hives; put bars with popsicle-sticks set halfway-down in a saw kerf with wood glue; remove the _non-candy_ cork from the queen cage and put her directly on the bottom of the hive among the bees, watching that she was on the way out as we closed up. The only apparently-useful "improvement" that we made to the simplified book design (aside from omitting the legs...) was to also cut a saw-kerf line on one end of each bar where the bar would naturally sit on the (tilted...) edge-board of the hive. This causes the bars to "naturally" click into place, perpendicular to the sides like they're supposed to be, and so not to slide back-and-forth until of course the bees eventually glue them down. (It was unnecessary to cut kerfs on both ends.)

We rather arbitrarily cut every bar 1-1/2".

When the bees started wanting to build from one comb to the next we inserted a blank. They subsequently built-out both bars straight.

Hive in progress ... stay tuned.


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## flyingbrass (Jul 2, 2011)

As a new beekeeper I'd like to add my one cent. It could also be the bees themselves. Some build straight and some don't. My first TBH was so easy I got another. Second one had been a big mess. I want to learn about bees so I'm going to continue with them.


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## AkDan (Apr 13, 2012)

Brian, 

I built two of their golden mean hives.

I think mine are slow due to weather, my first week was cold....2nd week was pretty nice, I'm into week three and we're cold again. That said after some long talks. I would consider lengthening the hive if you plan on using a follower board feeder.

I also have their video and he talks about using a small dish to feed in the bottom of the hive. I've feeding 2 to 2.5 quarts of syrup every 3rd day when the weather was nice. There's no way to keep up with that in a small dish in the bottom of the hive. I went to a follower board feeder. originally had intended on using a internal style boardman feeder but went with the upper entranced follower boardman due to the temps around here. If you go longer leave 2-4"es extra for the feeder so you have room in the hive....mines getting a bit cramped with 28"es and a 4" follower board. I'm thinking about making a miller feeder to sit on top and run a gap between two bars for them to get to it. 

Other than the feeding issue, I really like it. I have their bars, ran out of time building before I left for a few weeks, but I would also leave gaps so you can put on supers. I'm headed to work, but in one of my posts there's a local doing it, and I found another person adding supers to his online. Makes sense if you dont go with a longer box.....might help with the room issue. But plan for it, I've got bees in the works and I gotta redo my lids to accomodate whatever route I end up going. The window is a lot of fun....I can watch and never move a bar! Great for a new beek like myself.


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