# Keeping Bees with a smile book



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

This is very high praise:

“_Keeping Bees With a Smile_ is a valuable guide for independent-minded beekeepers who are seeking ways to keep bees without treating them with chemicals, disrupting their homes, and otherwise intruding on their lives. Fedor Lazutin, one of Russia’s foremost natural beekeepers, describes a beekeeping system based on a trust of a bee colony as a living being capable of solving life’s challenges without human assistance. Beginner-friendly and complete with fascinating photographs, it is a special book, and one that I expect will ‘shake up’ the thinking of the independent-minded beekeepers in North America and Europe.” — Dr. Thomas D. Seeley, Professor, Cornell University
author of _Honeybee Democracy_ and _The Wisdom of the Hive

_ ​I will have to verify with Dr. Seeley that the quote is his.

Update: I have e-mailed Dr. Seeley at his Cornell address and will post what I hear back.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Andrew Dewey said:


> I will have to verify with Dr. Seeley that the quote is his.


I too would be interested in knowing if Seeley actually said what was quoted... 

I wonder what race of bees the smiling Russian beekeepers are using?


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I don't know about the book, but I love my long hives.









I did read the parts that were available to read, and the author did say that his methods were only suited to the Russian woods, so maybe not universal advice.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Dr Seeley confirmed the quote in a personal e-mail to me today.


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## Glen H (Aug 17, 2013)

I saw the add too and clicked on it. after reading the free pages, I wondered for the cost of the book would it be worth it, wasn't sure if much of his info would be relevant to a Lang hive keeper in North America. The price of the book is to high for me to find out.

I did however purchase a book called the Rose Hive Method. It's a how to book by an Irish beekeeper.
It's an easy read with some good info in it. Got it last month and have read it twice now.
He has some YouTube videos too on the Rose hive.

http://www.rosebeehives.com


Glen


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Andrew, thanks for confirming the Seeley quote. I ordered the book partly on the strength of that quote.

Also, my wife is half Russian, and I really like the long hive concept so far. The climate and flora in the North Country is somewhat similar to the European Russian woodlands the author resides in, so I'm hoping to learn some interesting stuff.

I'll report on my reaction when I've read it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Which half Ray?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Didn't realise how big these hives are till I saw the woman standing next to one holding a comb. Now that's a deep.

These are similar to other hives I've seen in Slavic countries.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

rhaldridge said:


> Andrew, thanks for confirming the Seeley quote. I ordered the book partly on the strength of that quote.
> 
> Also, my wife is half Russian, and I really like the long hive concept so far. The climate and flora in the North Country is somewhat similar to the European Russian woodlands the author resides in, so I'm hoping to learn some interesting stuff.
> 
> I'll report on my reaction when I've read it.


Ray got confused. He heard the best way to control mites without chemicals is with Russians....so he married one.  Hope its working out.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Okay, I'm going to have to report you guys to the boss. Let's hope you never run into the rough half.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Didn't realise how big these hives are till I saw the woman standing next to one holding a comb. Now that's a deep.
> 
> These are similar to other hives I've seen in Slavic countries.


Now that's a heck of a strong woman to handle a comb full of honey like that. I wouldn't want to do it over and over again. Can anyone spell carpletunnel syndrome?


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## Glen H (Aug 17, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Now that's a heck of a strong woman to handle a comb full of honey like that. I wouldn't want to do it over and over again. Can anyone spell carpletunnel syndrome?


And lots of bee rolling too maybe!

Glen


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't really see why just because the comb is longer. One can be careful.


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## Glen H (Aug 17, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't really see why just because the comb is longer. One can be careful.


Was just thinking because the pivot point is where your hands are holding the frame, at the top.
The longer the frame, the more swing of the travel off center will occur, if there is any errors in lifting the frame up straight. Similar to a flatbed truck with a longer portion of it bed hanging out past the rear axle, will swing out wider then a flatbed truck with only a little bit hanging out past the back of the axle. The pivot point is at your hands. 
Take a yard stick and a 12inch ruler 
hold them by one end hanging straight down in in each hand. now rotate your wrist 10 degress.
Which one moves the furthest from off of center?

I could see the bottom edge of the frame being dragged along the frame next to it as the frame is being pulled out. 
That's all I was thinking.

Glen


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

One nice thing about long hives is that until you completely fill the hive (hasn't happened to me yet) you can move the follower board down a bit, and have more room to pry a frame out.

Though I have to confess, once there are 20-25 frames in the hive, I've quit being so careful, and just pry the frame I want out. The long hive is nice too, in that you always have a place to hang that first frame inside the hive. Then I can pry the frames apart enough to avoid rolling bees.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I got the news today that my copy has shipped. If it were not for the great review by Dr. Seeley I wouldn't be spending the money.

I plan to review the book for the MSBA Bee Line as they are always looking for articles. I will post the review to this thread.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Long hives? The ones in the pics? I'd call them more chunk hives.

Their shape is less far removed than a long hive, from what bees will build naturally if allowed, although in nature the combs would likely run the other way, mostly.


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## Ziva (Mar 13, 2011)

I just got the notice today too that my copy has shipped. 

It's cheaper to order it from Amazon (at least in the U.S.). On Amazon it's still sent/bought from 'DeepSnowPress', and the price of the book is the same, but shipping is cheaper if ordered through Amazon.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

"extra-deep horizontal hives which were easy and almost free to build. And that’s it: • you don’t need to inspect the bees, treat them or smoke them • no requeening • no heavy lifting • no queen excluders • no hauling hives around • no stings - i.e., _none_ of the hassles and expenses commonly associated with keeping bees 

keep bees naturally without interfering in their lives; 
start an apiary _for free_ by attracting local bee swarms; 
build maintenance-free hives that mimic how bees live in nature; 
keep colonies healthy & strong without _any_ drugs or gimmickry; 
help bees overwinter successfully even in the harshest climate; 
enhance local nectar plant resources; 
produce truly natural honey without robbing the bees; 
reverse the global bee decline... right in your backyard! 
"

A half hour north of me is a bridge I will sell you for $1.00.

If it sounds too good to be true it isn't.

Another guy making money selling suckers what they want to hear and somehow impossible for any other person to achieve.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

If I get one good idea from the book it will be worth the money. I made my purchase based on Dr. Seeley's blurb which is extremely effusive for him. I have listened to a few of Dr. Seeley's talks and find him extremely credible. I'm willing to read a book about how one person (at least) keeps bees in one part of Russia - a subject I know nothing about. Do I buy all the claims on the cover? You'll need to wait for my review, but I must decline and thank you kindly for your bridge offer.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I built twelve frame hives with frames double depth of a deep.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ua-large-cell-gets-CCD-ed&highlight=gargantua

I have phased them out as a nuisance. Problem # 1 is that I can not extract the frames. And they died as easily as any other hive while being choked with honey. I have one left which has six of the frames hanging in a double deep with normal frames on the outside. Because the frame is so big the bees fill it with honey and do not push the honey up into supers I can extract. When it dies that experiment i finished. Hives with boxes that have a size that can be disassembled is much better than a gigantic hive with gigantic frames. Been there, done that. I am just too honest to write a book claiming that it is the salvation of modern beekeeping.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

• you don’t need to inspect the bees, treat them or smoke them
• no stings 
• produce truly natural honey without robbing the bees;
• reverse the global bee decline... right in your backyard! 

So if I build these I'll never get stung again? AND I never need to smoke them again? And I'll never have to rob them again and I still get honey? And I can revers the global bee decline? By myself? In my own backyard?

Wow! I can't wait!


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## Glen H (Aug 17, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> Wow! I can't wait!


And it will only cost you $40.00 plus shipping to find out the secrets


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I take it we're all in accordance with the idea that Dr. Seeley is pretty gullible for recommending this book?

I'm still going to read it.

My wife, who knows almost nothing about beekeeping, but who is very bright, pointed out something interesting. She looked at the pictures and said something like. "Don't bee trees have very deep combs too?"


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Exactly. She is very bright. Trees are deep, rather than long.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

•keep bees naturally without interfering in their lives;
•start an apiary for free by attracting local bee swarms;
•build maintenance-free hives that mimic how bees live in nature;
•keep colonies healthy & strong without any drugs or gimmickry;
•enhance local nectar plant resources;
•produce truly natural honey without robbing the bees;
•reverse the global bee decline... right in your backyard! 

I've seen all those claims made in books about top bar hives.

The proponents of any hive design often like to believe their one is the most natural. However I believe the Russian one has been around a while and seems to work for them. Cerezha also referenced similar ones that had a super added, so plenty of room to store a good crop, and he did mention a huge crop.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I take it we're all in accordance with the idea that Dr. Seeley is pretty gullible for recommending this book?

Perhaps not. Seeley's actually read it and I haven't. The PR person making those claims may be a different thing entirely from how interesting and useful the book may actually be...


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> >I take it we're all in accordance with the idea that Dr. Seeley is pretty gullible for recommending this book?
> 
> Perhaps not. Seeley's actually read it and I haven't. The PR person making those claims may be a different thing entirely from how interesting and useful the book may actually be...


Yeah, I'm hoping that Seeley's take is a better indicator of the book's value than those somewhat breathless claims.

There may be some cultural differences too. Russians, I have discovered, throw themselves into their pursuits with sometimes frightening enthusiasm. Which, all things considered, I like. Give me hot and cold, rather than lukewarm.


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## BeeHappytule (Aug 26, 2013)

BeeCurious said:


> I wonder what race of bees the smiling Russian beekeepers are using?


Red ones, I would bet.

For some ineffable reason, the kid on the front cover bugs me.

I think it might be the 70's head band...


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I've started reading the book, and so far, pretty interesting.

It's beekeeping from a very Russian perspective, which I was hoping would be the case.

Michael, I think you might find it interesting. The book is fairly recursive. For example, I just read a passage on supplemental feeding. It was excerpted from a book published 50 years ago about the work of a Russian bee researcher who died in 1942. This later researcher tied the old guy's work into Miller's work. Fascinating stuff.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I'm envious - my copy is scheduled for delivery tomorrow.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Well, I'm halfway through the book, and I have to say that I'm enjoying it quite a bit more than I feared I might.

One very interesting aspect of it is the sense I'm getting of just how large and deep the Russian bee literature is. The author refers to many works from the 19th and 20th century that I'd love to read, but alas, I speak no Russian. 

If you're one of those folks who is interested in (for lack of a better word) "natural" beekeeping, you'll find much to agree with and much to dispute.

I have discovered the rationale for the really deep frames. The idea is to provide the bees with overhead storage of adequate honey in a one-box hive. Apparently you can make the appropriate depth by cutting the ears off a deep frame and screwing it to another deep frame. You can extract these frames in a standard extractor by separating the halves.

He gives much importance to bee race. He refers to the right bee for his area as the "European dark bee." I wonder if these are the Russian bees being sold here. Oddly, his description of the characteristic behavior of these bees reminds me of the descriptions I've read of AHB behavior-- aggressive, swarmy, tend to be runny on the frames and drip off the bottoms. 

I would guess the most controversial aspect of his program is that he's against what he call artificial methods of increase. He believes you should make increase from swarms only. I should add that he claims his system does not encourage swarming, and that in fact to get a good colony to swarm from one of his hives, it must be restricted and overcrowded.

According to the author, the three most important aspects of success in beekeeping, in descending order are:

(1) Nectar sources

(2) Bee race (genetics)

(3) Hive design and cultural practices.

Anyway, I'm glad I spent the money. Very thought-provoking little book.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I am not glad I spent the money. Reading the book is a waste of time. 

It seems to me that the author did a lot of research but little beekeeping. Lots of facts mixed and muddled with naive thoughts, assumptions and assertions. 

The main "thoughts" are repeated over and over again. In fact there are lots of repeats in that book. I don't like that since you can rewrite a part when editing a book - and not attach a slightly new version of a part at the end of the book. Would save the reader reading time.

As the authors states: it works for him in Russia. Surrounded by natural woods and a natural landscape. Fine. If I would use his methods, and in fact I did when experimenting, I ended up with either dead hives or no honey. And yes, I have long hives. Even had very deep frames in some of them.

The book made me smile here and there. "Two manipualtions per year." 1. Spring inspection. 2. Adding a couple of empty frames or foundations every 7-14 days. 3. Adding a couple of frames and foundations every 7-14 days. 4. Fill up with empty frames/foundation when the main flow hits. 5. Harvest in autumn. Makes 2. 

Well, I do not see much difference compared to conventional beekeeping, since conventional beekeeping doesn't do much different? Except a split for swarm prevention or requeening. But is this a significant difference?

There are far better books on beekeeping in a long hive (in German) for sure and beekeeping in general.

Are there better books on natural beekeeping? Don't know. Local bees (dark bees), plus a wonder hive plus doing nothing/hands off is not a real new recipe. (For desaster.) There are loads of such books. And if you want to read the expectations, thoughts and assertions from new beekeepers, you find it on the internet/web. Loads of it. For free. At least they don't use styrofoam as hive material for their natural approach.  Unlike the Russian long hive described in that book. 

Sorry for being a bit grumpy, but that book simply annoyed me.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I still found the book quite interesting. There were a couple of aspects of his system that seemed thought-provoking to me. 

One was the notion of making increase via swarms rather than splits. My reading in general tells me that hives started with swarms generally do build up better than splits, and the rationale seemed good to me-- that swarming was the evolved way of reproducing the colony, and that the optimal mix of bees for establishing a new hive goes out with a swarm.

The other is the notion of deep frames. I've read in numerous sources that bees like to have stores overhead. One of the many criticisms I've seen leveled at long hives is that bees prefer to move up into stores rather than sideways into stores. With deep comb, you can have that overhead honey while closing the hive down into a compact shape, using follower boards.

I didn't see the book as advocating a do nothing-style of beekeeping. I saw it as a more intensely interactive method than conventional Langstroth beekeeping. 

It's true that he does not advocate treatment. But the Russians have been dealing with varroa much longer than Americans have (and, I assume, Germans.) It may be that their stocks have evolved more resistance, due to the much longer time frame. 

Admittedly, one of the appeals for me is that his area of Russia is similar, climate-wise, to our place in upstate NY. I think I may try a deep hive or two next spring.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

By no means I want to trash that book. It must have been a lot of work to write it and illustrate it and translate it. Still the content is more theoretical. Nothing new thought provoking for me. 



rhaldridge said:


> One was the notion of making increase via swarms rather than splits. ...the optimal mix of bees for establishing a new hive goes out with a swarm.


That is certainly true, that a swarm has an optimal mix of bees. But swarming as a natural increase is not really a new invention. In fact many beekeepig systems are based on it. Like skep beekeeping. Still there is a problem: swarming means no honey harvest for you. In many many locations. The skep beekeepers solved it like this: Multiply one hive into four hives. In autumn harvest (and kill) all hives but one. "Harvesting" about 5 Kilogramm per skep. 3x5 kg = 15 kg. Whew...There is a reason why this never has been tried with box hives. I have fixed comb hives that swarm every year. Harvest: 0. I do splits with the same type of fixed comb hive and reunite them later. Harvests:30-40 kg. 

Let them swarm can force you to feed every year over and over again. There is a reason why simply letting swarm them is not adopted all over the World. Remember: two very good years, two very bad years, the rest is medium. In good years the bees may make a surplus, all other years they don't. Race doesn't matter. I have dark bees, Carnolians and Buckfast bees side by side. There is some differences but not significant ones.




rhaldridge said:


> other is the notion of deep frames. ...to move up into stores rather than sideways into stores. With deep comb, you can have that overhead honey while closing the hive down into a compact shape, using follower boards.


I know hive types that are very flat. Search for pictures of the "Bienenkiste". It combs are of merely 20 cm height. But very long. Maybe 80 cm. Stil those hives winter perfectly with no other protection. So the bees can go sidewards when under the inner cover/roof. And of course they like to go upwards. And that is what they do in any type of box hive. What's the problem? This small gap of the topbars or frames? Not really. If that would matter, a lot of bee colonies would die every winter. They don't. 



rhaldridge said:


> But the Russians have been dealing with varroa much longer than Americans have (and, I assume, Germans.) It may be that their stocks have evolved more resistance, due to the much longer time frame.


Varroa arrived Germany in 1975. 38 years ago. Since then many many people tried hard to get survivors. 



rhaldridge said:


> I think I may try a deep hive or two next spring.


Deep hives are interesting. I still keep a couple of different long hive types for experimentation. Don't think they do much of a difference to the bees. 

Would love to hear your reports, if you try them. Don't expect too much though. 

In France there is a similiar system. I try to find the pictures for you.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Bernhard, I'd enjoy seeing those pictures.

The long hives I've had this year in Florida have been a delight to work with, much easier than the Langstroth hives I have. The convenient access to all parts of the hive is a big plus for me, as a beginner trying to learn about beekeeping. know Michael Bush has run medium depth long hives successfully, and the long hives I have now are deeps.

But up in the North Country, they sometimes get 40 degrees below zero (F.) so I'm wondering if an insulated very deep hive might do somewhat better.

I didn't get the impression that the author was claiming anything new about his methods. I thought it was more like a synthesis of old ways and new.

One idea made me think-- the long entrance slot, which could be used to manipulate the location of the brood nest by opening it up in different places along the length of the slot.

Probably the most interesting aspect of the book for me was that it revealed a long and rich culture of beekeeping in a faraway land. We Americans sometimes have blinders on when it comes to foreign approaches to occupations that have a long history in this country, and forget that our history is not very lengthy, compared to most places in the world.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I'm working my way slowly through the book. I fear it will take me two or three passes to discover what the author is trying to communicate - not because the book is poorly written, but rather because the book is so full of ideas that i want to consider.

I don't know that I'll spend time this winter constructing a deep frame horizontal hive. The correct way (from what I'm gathering from the book) to populate the hive would be with a swarm of local bees. As I am 1) not convinced that there is much if any of a population of feral locally adapted bees *in my area* and 2) I think most swarms in my area are the product of kept stock (hobby and migratory commercial), I don't know that I would find success in the methods I'm reading about.

There is much to think about when comparing natural bee nests in trees with our modern hives. I keep reminding myself that knowledge is constantly being accumulated - and perhaps we have less of an understanding of the natural world than we think we do.

I think after reading this book I'll revisit the writings of the "old time" bee researchers.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

I read the book and found it very interesting, thought provoking and entertaining, which I believe is what Dr. Seeley said. I think I will try a long hive in the Spring. Right now I strive to overwinter with 2 mediums so I think I will try a long hive 2 medium frames deep. I am sure I will learn something new about the bees. I recommend that you give the book a read.


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