# how to increase equipment and bees the "homemade" way



## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

My main question: how to increase equipment, with bees waiting, without being a millionaire.

Please let me explain: I have tons of free time, not tons of cash. Making equipment instead of buying it outright is the only way I can see increasing hives other than a few per year, unless I sell most of them off to buy equipment.
Because my father financed quite a bit of equipment that we needed up front for bees, any profit from honey goes to him. Now, I am left the queen and nuc sales (which I prefer doing anyway...) . So, with cutting plywood tops and bottoms, using free pallets, and buying boxes and frames from certain places, I plan to sell 12 or so nuc's early next spring bare minimum to finance this all. That's with bought boxes, frames and foundation, at about $30 a box (all 10 frame deeps.) And 12 nuc's at $150 each comes to $1800.00 that's what it would take (plus other things that are necessary.) 
So, I know first hand that boxes and frames could be bought cheaper than that, by making them at home, but is it possible to cut that down any further? 

Our bees next spring are this: 4 double deeps, 2 double 5 frame nucs, and 4 small 4 frame nuc's, plus any swarms. These all for increase (assuming all survive) and 4 other hives for honey production. 
I figured they would need at least 20 new double deeps. 
Any suggestions are appreciated


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Know your costs, know your materials, know what is required to build what you need. Under the best conditions, it takes 74 inches of wood to build a hive body. If you shop around, you can find planed lumber for $1 per board foot. This works out to a cost of about $7 per hive body. If purchasing in bulk, and I mean by the thousands of board feet, the cost per board foot of lumber can go down to about 70 cents. This will get your cost down to about $4.50/hive body for wood. It can be done with a table saw which can be purchased for around $150 used on Craigslist. Building 10 hives of 1 hive body each with migratory top and bottom will cost 4 board feet per top and bottom and 7 board feet per box for a total 15 board feet per hive. Buy 2 sheets of exterior 3/4 plywood for $30 each and you can make tops and bottoms for 10 hives. If you are good at what you do, that brings your cost in at $13.00 per hive. This presumes your labor is "free". Paint, nails, and glue will still cost you an arm and a leg. I estimate they add $1.50 per hive body or $4.50 to the cost of a hive with 1 box and top and bottom. This gives a total cost per hive of $17.50 or thereabouts.

As for building frames, my suggestion is to buy them at $.85 each. I build all of my own frames, but that is not a path most would choose to walk. This adds $8.50 to the cost per hive bringing your net cost to $26 each. If you build your own, 10 frames will cost about 4 board feet of lumber and about 4 minutes per frame to cut them out on a tablesaw. That gives a raw cost of $40 for wood to make 40 frames. So make your choice, either pay $85 for frames already cut and ready to assemble or buy $40 of lumber and spend about 8 hours learning how to cut frames then another 8 hours cutting your frames.

Given these numbers, your best possible price per hive comes in at $260.00. If the wood you purchase is a bit knotty or has checks, cracks, or other flaws, you can easily waste a board foot per hive body. Now your cost is above $17.00 per hive. That does not sound like much, but it amounts to throwing away 13% of your wood. Now lets go shopping.

10 boards 1 X 8 X 12 at $80
2 gallons of paint at $48
10 pounds of spiral galvanized nails at $38
1 bottle of titebond 3 glue @$19
2 sheets of exterior 3/4 plywood at $60
cheap paint brush and roller for $8
Still want to cut your own frames? Add 5 more 1 X 8 X 12 at $40

Don't forget to add tax, another $25 or thereabouts.


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## johnbeejohn (Jun 30, 2013)

Take some of that free time get a job


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

I waitered nights...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you have time and no money, then you need to scrounge for wood. Most job sites throw away anything less than 24" long. There are a lot of scraps that are not useful for building houses for people but are very useful to build houses for bees. Building your own equipment with free wood makes sense. Buying wood to build your own, may actually cost more money than buying the equipment...


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I know here that buying materials to make boxes costs the same as buying boxes that need to be assembled. So I buy them. I can make boxes much cheaper for me by finding wood to make them out of. It is still a lot of work. I also already own the equipment to make them. that is not cheap. I also sell colonies in order to purchase more equipment. I sell honey to buy honey equipment such as extractor and upgrades to that equipment. So far that is very small with about $900 in an extractor and some miscellaneous stuff. Beekeeping equipment comes from the sales of bees or doing cut outs. I am supposed to meet with a property manager tomorrow about doing a cut out. We also capture swarms to reduce the cost of getting bees. You have to have cash flow. money in money out. Reducing that initial debt is tough. You have cash flowing out from a couple of holes that way. expanding is bad enough much less having to pay for past equipment. but I encourage you to get past that. suffer the pain now it makes it easier in the long run. IF you expend from sales alone you do not out grow your ability to produce because production determines your growth.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

beestudent said:


> I figured they would need at least 20 new double deeps.
> Any suggestions are appreciated


Find old cedar (not pressure treated wood) fencing and figure out how to make it work for you.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

SnickeringBear said:


> If you build your own, 10 frames will cost about 4 board feet of lumber and about 4 minutes per frame to cut them out on a tablesaw. That gives a raw cost of $40 for wood to make 40 frames.


New math?!? 

If it takes 4 board feet of wood for 10 frames, and wood is $1 per board ft, then 40 frames uses $16 worth of wood, not $40.


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## chorrylan (Feb 20, 2016)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> New math?!?


Yup.. there's been an election.... y'all gonna have to start adjusting to the new regime :lpf:


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

I hit the Home Depot cull pile every time I drive by it taking my kid to school. The other day I found a sheet of 3/4" exterior plywood with just 16" cut off the short end. So basically a 4 x 7 foot sheet of 3/4" exterior plywood was $9. And if you can find plywood or wood pieces before they make the cull pile, they'll often give them to you as free scrap.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> Buying wood to build your own, may actually cost more money than buying the equipment...


 I found this out the hard way. I now buy all my boxes from a local Amish guy who sells them assembled for $6


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Branman said:


> I hit the Home Depot cull pile every time I drive by it taking my kid to school. The other day I found a sheet of 3/4" exterior plywood with just 16" cut off the short end. So basically a 4 x 7 foot sheet of 3/4" exterior plywood was $9. And if you can find plywood or wood pieces before they make the cull pile, they'll often give them to you as free scrap.


I do the same. Every time I go by that store I check for culls.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> New math?!?
> 
> If it takes 4 board feet of wood for 10 frames, and wood is $1 per board ft, then 40 frames uses $16 worth of wood, not $40.


 True, but it takes 100 frames to fill up 10 boxes which is the number I stated. 100 frames takes 40 board feet which costs $40. So yes, definitely new math. I tried to correct it, but could no longer edit the post when I saw that it had 40 instead of 100 for the frame count.


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## Graperunner (Mar 13, 2012)

Harley Craig said:


> I found this out the hard way. I now buy all my boxes from a local Amish guy who sells them assembled for $6


6 $ for a ten frame deep with finger joints ?
PM me how to get in contact with him


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Spend your time, or spend your money.
If you spend your money, Uncle Sugar takes a cut when you make it and when you spend it.
Get good at scavenging. ( the more you ask at building sites, the easier it becomes)
Do you have a heavy equipment dealer near by? often their parts come not just on pallets but in crates.
(each dealership will be different ... it helps to have a friend in the shop)
All of this assumes you have some wood working equipment, & are not a "klutze".
If you are a klutze, stay away from the saw!
"skillsaw"
a square
table saw, ( w/dado blade )
2 to 4 bar clamps
"C" clamps and/or welders clamping pliers
air stapler
air compressor to run the stapler.

Frames ... the first ones I built, never having worked in a bee hive. They were terrible, & I figured I had about $10.00 apiece in them.
I get them unassembled from one of the supply houses, by the case for about $.75 each, get free delivery to the state wide bee keeper meetings.
For making your own, ad a router table to your tool kit
(a planer would be nice,< to thin down 2x's to make end bars for frames > but I can't justify it ... )
a work table
work space ... You have filled a 1 car garage already, and you cant walk between the tools to use them!!! plus a storage space to preserve your scavenged materials until you do use it.
It is amazing how much you can invest in tools to save a few bucks by doing it yourself.
Do you sell your nucs in wooden boxes, or cardboard?
Finding some one who builds & sell for cheap would be nice, if you have the cash.
Spend your time, or spend your money.
Good Luck, & _Keep_your_fingers_away_from_the_saw_!_ ... CE


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I know around here, bee equipment retail is very expensive. It made alot of sense to make much of my own equipment as I am expanding fast with not a big budget. Last year I made about 150 medium 8 frame boxes with homemade frames and about 45 medium 5 frame nuc boxes. I'm not fussy with the frames as long as the overall spacing is reasonably accurate. My top and bottom bars are 3/8 thick and 3/4 wide. and seem to be working out for me. I make them from cull 1 by material and fence boarding, with the end bars from 2 by material. A staple gun and a decent jig, speeds things up. A dado blade and a jig for the end bars. 

I buy cull piles of 2 by 8's to make my medium boxes. Simple butt joints with deck screws and titebond 3. A very forgiving process. And so far no failures. I use a frame as guidance and adjust to account for small measurement errors as I am screwing them together. For twisted boards, plane opposite corners until the box sits flat with no gaps. Doesn't take long with a power planer. Use a dado blade to put handles on them, if you like. Pay attention to grain and you can figure out which way they are likely to cup. You want them cupping in not out. Splits can be glued and clamped. There are very few boards I can't use. 

For plywood, there are always a couple sheets in each bundle slightly damaged from banding etc. Nobody wants to buy them so take them to the contractor desk and ask for 50% off. You are doing them a favour by taking them off their hands. 

Around this time of year, big box stores are shipping Christmas wreaths and stuff in modified crates. Same thing in spring with shrubs and other plants. If you take empty crates off their hands, you are doing them a favour so don't be shy to ask. Glue and clamps can build them up to box material. They can also be used to make frames. 

The only caveat, is that saw work is dangerous. When doing it you need to remind yourself of that continually and never take it lightly. Use some protective gear. 

Don't be discouraged at the slow pace of things at the beginning. As your skills pick up and you do some research you will find efficiencies. Best thing is that these skills sets you on a path of self sufficiency. A good thing in my opinion.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

With the price of wood, and I live with a national forest in every direction, I can not buy kiln dried wood and make frames and boxes as cheaply as I can buy them from Western Bee which is too far to pick them up economically. When ordering try to pool orders with other beekeepers and see if you can't find a producer who will ship your pallet sized order surface freight. Then arrange to pick it up yourself at the closest freight terminal. Shippers mostly figure in your shipping price $100 for using the liftgate on the truck and whatever else the market will bear for delivering to your door. My last pallet was a relatively small order of woodware plus containers and such which are bulky. Use some of that free time for research and you might find a local solution. Michigan has trees I understand and I bet they have people who make things out of them more cheaply than you can:<}


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

As someone with a long-time, serious woodworking avocation, I really enjoy building "deluxe bee condominiums" in support of my lovely's beekeeping activities. But as has already been acknowledged, building "everything" from scratch isn't necessarily the best "financial" decision because the cost of materials meets or exceeds what one can buy commercially produced components, such as hive boxes. I still do it because of the enjoyment factor, although we also take advantage of keeping some unassembled box components from Mann Lake on the shelf in case something quick is needed prior to the low-cost, air-dried pine I have in my rack being low enough in moisture content to use. Buying knocked down boxes can save money (both for product and shipping) and you still get the enjoyment from assembly and finishing since you have the time to do so.

I honestly do not recommend you make your own frames. I've done it and the time to mill stock, build and assemble them is a thankless task Even if I was going to build everything else, I'd not build any frames again unless it was for some special purpose. (The ones I did build as an experiment are foundationless and will be used exclusively in swarm traps)


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I've found building 10 frame equipment not economical with wood pricing here, nucs are a little better as you can build more per board. The main savings I see is if you can build your own tops and bottoms as Mann Lake charges $9.50 for a top or bottom for a nuc where it should cost you $3 to make or less. I've found sales of assembled equipment to be the best bang for your buck. Now, if it just comes down to having no $$ to actually buy anything, I've found having a job to finance the bees is much more lucrative than selling bees and making equipment and stuff. I also try to get my boxes back which typically isn't an issue or people bring their own nuc box a week or two ahead of pick up and I transfer the bees into and let them settle for a few days.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Graperunner said:


> 6 $ for a ten frame deep with finger joints ?
> PM me how to get in contact with him


8 frame medium with rabits. 10 frame deep is $9 I think. If i can find his address I can give it to you, I don't think he has a phone, although if you call the country store down the road you can sometimes get a message to him.


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## d16795 (Apr 9, 2016)

Harley I'm in the same rough area as you. I was thinking about trying to source boxes locally and any pointers to local suppliers would be appreciated. With shipping added to the major suppliers if I could get a comparable deal or cheaper on similar quality, I would rather give my money to someone local.

I build my own telescoping covers, inner covers, and bottom boards, but the detail on frames is beyond my patience, and I'm not comfortable that the boxes I've built will last for the long haul.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

I'm trying to find a reasonable price on unassembled frames. Boxes aren't the issue for me as there are plenty of sawmills in the area. My wife's grandfather has an fully equipped woodshop he doesn't use anymore since he's in his 90's. I use his shop and visit. I actually just came from there after making some rims for winter.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The trouble with finding unassembled frames at a reasonable price is that cost input to make 100 frames starts with $30 to $40 of wood to which manufacturing costs are added. By the time they have been cut and packaged, profit margins are very slim.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> The trouble with finding unassembled frames at a reasonable price is that cost input to make 100 frames starts with $30 to $40 of wood to which manufacturing costs are added. By the time they have been cut and packaged, profit margins are very slim.


That is probably true but after I get a frame, assemble it, and add plastic foundation it seems that financially I'm not very far ahead and time-wise I'm at a deficit. Like the OP I'm just starting out and trying to grow. Everyone said woodenware was the biggest expense so I'm not unaware but it still sucks. Frames are really the only thing I have no intention of making myself.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

if any of you builders can get to SE Texas - I can sell you 4 blanks cut to size for a 10 frame deep for 5 bucks - no limit. Just let me know ahead of time. Just so were clear that's 2 each X 16 1/4 and 2 each X 19 7/8. In a 1 X 12 planed board. (3/4 X 11 1/4) finished board. Trim to 9 5/8 by you


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Black Friday, buy frames. It's worth waiting for. One of the big suppliers has an awesome sale. 
I load up on the frames and foundations then.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

That is a very fair offer Sakhoney. If I were within driving distance, I'd be visiting regularly.

I can buy yellow pine nearby at $.50 per board foot and can get it cut and planed to the right size. $3 per hive body is an attractive price. Unfortunately, yellow pine is not durable enough nor resistant enough to rot.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Hey Bear - what brings you to that conclusion that yellow pine is no good for boxes? I have been making them out of yellow pine for years and some of my boxes are better than 25 years old. 20 years ago I dipped them in old motor oil and diesel. Now I wax dip them.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Painted only Sak. My hot and more humid climate takes them down in about 3 years. I agree that wax dipped would be durable. I tried making frames from yellow pine years ago and found it was too brittle. The yellow pine in this area is Southern Yellow Pine which has wide growth rings and is very susceptible to splitting.

Are you using yellow pine now? If so, how does weight compare with other softwoods?

P.S. SnickeringBear is my other computer.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> New math?!?
> 
> If it takes 4 board feet of wood for 10 frames, and wood is $1 per board ft, then 40 frames uses $16 worth of wood, not $40.


Which does not include any cost for your time. buying the frames would be about $30. You also have not included any cost of the equipment or running it. it is not free. at 4 minutes per frame you have about an hour and a half in time alone. at $20 an hour that adds $30 to the actual cost. I factor in 15% of the cost of materials in cost of equipment and this has proven for years to be nearly dead on. so equipment casts would be only a couple of dollars. So making your own cost you about $48 for $30 worth of frames. Now on the issue of applying value for your time. many don't they say they are not doing anything anyway. To each their own. that is not how it is in my world. right this moment I could make $30 worth of frames. Replace the drive lines in a vehicle valued at $500. We got an estimate from a mechanic. Or replace a timing belt worth $2000, again quoted cost. Drive lines cost $140 so value to me is approx. $360. timing belts will be about $160 since I will also replace the water pump, value to me is $1,840. Or I can go make frames, Value to me $18. Where would you start?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Or you could use the time that you would otherwise _*waste*_ watching television!

Priceless!! :lpf:




... Kill your TV ...


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Or you could use the time that you would otherwise _*waste*_ watching television!
> 
> Priceless!! :lpf:
> 
> ...


Or surfing the internet!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

That anything is wasted is your opinion. if you consider it wasted time I would suggest you not do it. on the other hand I consider all things have value when applied appropriately. As for me. My day starts at 3 am. ends at around 9 PM usually. Of that time I spend about 3 hours total with a television on or on a computer. Usually both at the same time. Neither of which I consider wasted time. Relaxing has it's purpose first of all. and I do not spend a lot of time with either television or internet on something that are entertainment. mostly they are educational or productive in some manner. One example is part of my time on the computer right now is being spent teaching a young person how to draw realistic portraits. I learn in the process of teaching. it requires I draw a project along with him and I get to problem solve and answer many questions I may never have thought of. The worst people to problem solve with are those that think they already have it figured out. My reply to that is great. why are you still problem solving something you have figured out? Most people could not keep up with me even during my rest activities which generally at the moment include internet. television both on some sort of educational subject while drawing or creating in some fashion or planning such things a multiple car repairs or beekeeping issues etc. This is an example of what happens when I "Waste" time.







At the same time I was doing this. I was watching a tutorial on drawing. Tutoring an individual on drawing. and watching a program on television with my wife which is sort of like a weekly evening date. The drawing by the way is at her request so it applies as doing something with her. It is now on display in an exhibit.
If you are so limited that you cannot figure out how to relax and still be productive. that is your cross to bear. Don't assume I make the same choices you do.


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## LittleTreeGuy (Aug 8, 2016)

I think there are a few things to look at here... 

1. If the OP is looking at this as a business, and building/selling bees to expand, then you have to consider that most business have a lot of "up-front" costs, that you will (if business is good) someday earn back. 

2. Building on the cheap... I can buy lumber and build frames for about $40 per hundred (not counting foundation), and my medium boxes cost me about $7. THis is given that I have a table saw, blades, router, bits, staple gun, compressor, and staples. You could use a hand saw, chisel, and a hammer but it would take you a whole lot of time. I don't figure my equipment into the cost as I use it for other stuff, as well and usually have extra parts on hand. If you have to buy that equipment, you have to decide how long it will take to pay for itself. If you have to buy all the above mentioned equipment, you'd likely have to build 50 boxes and 500 or more frames to break even. If you're one of the guys that figures in a cost for your time, then it will take even more. It's not cheap, but there are some ways to save. Going the DIY or cheaper route isn't for everyone. I like it because I find it almost "therapeutic" to spend time in my basement working with the wood. The fact that I save some money on my bee equipment is just an added bonus.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Another good place to scrounge for lumber is a construction site where the finished building will have marble or granite. Banks, casinos, etc. The stone pieces are shipped in large, stout crates. Find and talk to the forklift driver for the stone company. 

Alex


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I don't know about your area. but before you go scrounging trash from construction sites. get the permission of the site supervisor or Forman. it comes in hand when the police show up. It is illegal and most construction companies here will prosecute you for removing materials form job sites. Most hire their own security to prevent it and other problems such as vandalism. not so much because they guard their trash. as trash and treasure has different definitions to different people and frustrate with not finding materials in dumpsters leads to taking materials from homes. In all I find it easier to just work earn some money and pay my way.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

d16795 said:


> Harley I'm in the same rough area as you. I was thinking about trying to source boxes locally and any pointers to local suppliers would be appreciated. With shipping added to the major suppliers if I could get a comparable deal or cheaper on similar quality, I would rather give my money to someone local.
> 
> 
> I build my own telescoping covers, inner covers, and bottom boards, but the detail on frames is beyond my patience, and I'm not comfortable that the boxes I've built will last for the long haul.


Honestly, I have come to much the same conclusion, but I had the patience with about a hundred frames this year and that was much more than I was willing to do.




Fusion_power said:


> The trouble with finding unassembled frames at a reasonable price is that cost input to make 100 frames starts with $30 to $40 of wood to which manufacturing costs are added. By the time they have been cut and packaged, profit margins are very slim.


Which is why I was planning on selling nucs to buy frames at approx $0.80 each, unless anyone else had them even slightly cheaper. (I have kinda got on my dad's bad side for hogging his table saw (and other tools, including wearing out a blade for it) for 3 days straight making boxes and frames before...)



sakhoney said:


> if any of you builders can get to SE Texas - I can sell you 4 blanks cut to size for a 10 frame deep for 5 bucks - no limit. Just let me know ahead of time. Just so were clear that's 2 each X 16 1/4 and 2 each X 19 7/8. In a 1 X 12 planed board. (3/4 X 11 1/4) finished board. Trim to 9 5/8 by you


Hey, thanks! If I'm ever in the area I may have to hit you up on that. (Assuming I plan on building any boxes DIY ever again...)

Thanks for the responses! 

Mainly what I'm taking from this is: unless you have plenty of power equipment, and have used it for a long time, don't try to make homemade beekeeping equipment. It's just not worth it.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

> Painted only Sak. My hot and more humid climate takes them down in about 3 years. I agree that wax dipped would be durable. I tried making frames from yellow pine years ago and found it was too brittle. The yellow pine in this area is Southern Yellow Pine which has wide growth rings and is very susceptible to splitting.
> 
> Are you using yellow pine now? If so, how does weight compare with other softwoods?


Yes I am using yellow pine on everything. I have also made about 10000 frames with it and have no issues with it. I is heavier wood but keep it dry and its good to work with


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I am not big time commercial but I also have a full time job. I picked up 1400 BF (board foot) of lumber at $00/1000 ($0.040/ BF) for rough 4/4 or 5/5 lumber green. I air dried it a year, I plane it as needed. (now that is a jointer and 13” planer table saw). I square my wood (not cut to width) then with a kirf I place scrap plywood in the top so it is a box. I cut the box to height and that gives me an inner cover and a deep on the larger ones. 
I tried to get creative on the bottom boards and have a dozen or so I am not happy with. Stick to normal. I have also made screen bottom boards but the screen is very expensive (see myoldtools.com)
I only plane my wood to about ¾” so they are a bit larger than the commercial hives. I keep telling myself that I am going to sit there for the next hour and take that extra off of this years wood but I do not.
I traded Hives (with bees) for wax foundation (25 lbs of old) and a 2 frame extractor that I converted to run with my drill. 
I have made frames out of a 2x6 (sides-plane it down, chop saw them to 2x frame height, jointer them to the cut outs, chop saw in half, dato top and bottom, table saw with thin kirf blade)
But now I just buy them on black Friday at $80/100.
*Bottom line, you are retired but what woodworking skill/ tools do you have? A lot of these things for me have to do with horse trading and patience. *


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

If you're good at building equipment, then build over the winter and sell to local beekeepers. 
Around here local beekeepers are very happy to pay premium price for hives that are not easily ordered online. 
Horizontal hives are selling like hotcakes, at premium price. 
Take one along to your local bee club meetings to show your craftmanship.


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