# my feral bees, should I go treatment free?



## MariahK (Dec 28, 2014)

I have kind of toyed with the idea of tf, but fear killing all my bee's. But this year I had the pleasure of a cut out in early april of a colony that was in an abandoned house for at least 10 yrs. The house was empty for 17 years. The neighbors could not agree on any more details. But these girls are different then my other hives, more defensive, not hot but meaner. They have never been treated, in fact I have pretty much left them alone except a quick peek here or there. They started back filling the brood nest so I had to intervene, also a few frames of drone so I culled one to check for mites, I checked 250-300 drone cells and found a total of 22 mites. Which seems a very tolerable # I am just wondering if I should treat these girls or see if I can go tf with them and there genes. I have not done a sugar shake recently was planning on testing and treating all hives in the next week or so. But I kind of want to see what these girls will do if I just leave them alone.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

it's whatever you are comfortable with mariah, but it sounds like all you have to lose is the labor involved with the cut out. i would consider experimenting by not treating and see if they overwinter. you may have lucked into some survivors there.

watch closely for signs of collapse and should it happen be sure to stop robbing in it's tracks. i've not had that happen here in several years, but should i see it my plan is to euthanize the colony mites and all by putting them in a freezer.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

If they are handling themselves, why not see what happens? These could be the bees that start you on a treatment free path. Why treat if you don't have to?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If the odds appear favorable I would never miss a chance to go treatment free do it.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

> my feral bees, should I go treatment free?


I don't treat. But if I did and wanted to go treatment free, I would not treat these bees. I would also make up a queenless nuc from another hive and add a frame of young, queen-able brood from this hive to raise another queen from these genetics. I would replace the brood frame that was taken with a frame of drawn comb from another hive. I would also look at the area from which this hive came and put up some swarm traps there next spring.


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## Joe Mac (Jun 1, 2016)

It's my goal to also be TF, although now I believe it's not going to be as easy as I first thought. I bought 6 Russian nucs back in the spring and have them separated from my yard of feral mutts that I have trapped in swarm traps and some from cut outs. The Russians are supposed to be really hygienic and able to deal with the mites. They are doing fine and show no signs of varroa spread diseases so far. I haven't done a mite count on any of them yet. 

I did a cut out of feral mutts the first of May and had to treat them with 3 OAV treatments starting the first of June because of high mite load. They were uncapping brood and dragging it out. I found one with a mite on it and although that shows some VSH traits they had a 15% mite count. Can bees exhibit this trait without the grooming trait to groom mites from each other? I think they need both. They had a lot of dead brood and DWV after I had them for about a month. Beeks are as scarce as hen's teeth in my neck of the woods so these bees have been feral for years. There's not another beek within 10 miles of me (and he only has 2 colonies). I caught 4 swarms in my traps this spring so these bees have been survivors for a long time also. I am planning to raise some queens from the best one of them. They are very gentle bees and have built up very fast. I haven't done a mite count on them either yet. I am beginning to rethink about the feral survivors. I was hoping that they had developed VSH traits and I'm sure some have, but now I am thinking that the reason that a lot of feral bees survive is that they swarm a lot, maybe because the size of their cavity may be small or maybe it's just in their genes to swarm a lot. When they swarm, they break their own brood cycle because the parent colony has to raise another queen. By the time the new queen begins to lay all brood has hatched and there's not a speck of brood in hive. The phoeretic mites are eager to lay eggs and the first few hundred bee larvae that become of age for the mites to lay eggs on get so overloaded with mites that it kills the bee larvae/pupae and the young immature mites die with the host. So the mites have in effect just committed suicide. This wipes the slate clean for the parent colony to build back up with a minimal number of mites present and the cycle starts all over again. When we hive these bees and manage them to prevent swarming are we allowing the mites to build up over a longer period to a dangerous level so it destroys the colony? 

I am going to trap out a hive from a tree in the next few weeks using the Hogan method and hope to trap the queen as well. This colony has been there for at least 10 years according to the owner. I'm anxious to get these bees to see how well they cope with varroa mites. Is it the swarming instinct that naturally curbs the levels of the mites in these bees allowing them to survive or do they have VSH characteristics? I hope to find out.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Joe Mac said:


> It's my goal to also be TF, although now I believe it's not going to be as easy as I first thought. I bought 6 Russian nucs back in the spring and have them separated from my yard of feral mutts that I have trapped in swarm traps and some from cut outs. The Russians are supposed to be really hygienic and able to deal with the mites. They are doing fine and show no signs of varroa spread diseases so far. I haven't done a mite count on any of them yet.
> 
> I did a cut out of feral mutts the first of May and had to treat them with 3 OAV treatments starting the first of June because of high mite load. They were uncapping brood and dragging it out. I found one with a mite on it and although that shows some VSH traits they had a 15% mite count. Can bees exhibit this trait without the grooming trait to groom mites from each other? I think they need both. They had a lot of dead brood and DWV after I had them for about a month. Beeks are as scarce as hen's teeth in my neck of the woods so these bees have been feral for years. There's not another beek within 10 miles of me (and he only has 2 colonies). I caught 4 swarms in my traps this spring so these bees have been survivors for a long time also. I am planning to raise some queens from the best one of them. They are very gentle bees and have built up very fast. I haven't done a mite count on them either yet. I am beginning to rethink about the feral survivors. I was hoping that they had developed VSH traits and I'm sure some have, but now I am thinking that the reason that a lot of feral bees survive is that they swarm a lot, maybe because the size of their cavity may be small or maybe it's just in their genes to swarm a lot. When they swarm, they break their own brood cycle because the parent colony has to raise another queen. By the time the new queen begins to lay all brood has hatched and there's not a speck of brood in hive. The phoeretic mites are eager to lay eggs and the first few hundred bee larvae that become of age for the mites to lay eggs on get so overloaded with mites that it kills the bee larvae/pupae and the young immature mites die with the host. So the mites have in effect just committed suicide. This wipes the slate clean for the parent colony to build back up with a minimal number of mites present and the cycle starts all over again. When we hive these bees and manage them to prevent swarming are we allowing the mites to build up over a longer period to a dangerous level so it destroys the colony?
> 
> I am going to trap out a hive from a tree in the next few weeks using the Hogan method and hope to trap the queen as well. This colony has been there for at least 10 years according to the owner. I'm anxious to get these bees to see how well they cope with varroa mites. Is it the swarming instinct that naturally curbs the levels of the mites in these bees allowing them to survive or do they have VSH characteristics? I hope to find out.


Hey Joe Mac, fellow Arkansan here.

I think what you've described is probably a summation of a lot of the feral characteristics, and explains why brood break is one of the tools in the TF toolkit. That being said, I have a hive that is going strong for third season, original queen, and two daughters of this queen in their second season. One of the main characteristics of this hive is a slow build up. It seems from what limited experience I have, in my own bee yard, the bees that exhibit the best hygenic traits are the slowest to build up. They are very manageable bees in this way, and seem to make up for the slow early build up come fall. Stick with it. Keep on breeding queens with desirable traits. It's very possible.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Do your sugar shake and then decide. The only thing that will not tell you is if the bees have developed the ability to survive what might otherwise be called an elevated mite load.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I stumbled in to TF with captured feral survivors, after not seeing a mite drop with OAV I quit treating later I quit monitoring. 

IMO you don't have to let your bees die, you just need to monitor until you know what they can do. You will soon find the ones that can't handle mites, treat and requeen from the hives that can. Your 10+ year old hive should be a good source of queens. 

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would do what is consistent with your model of the world:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesphilosophy.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbelief.htm


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

Joe Mac said:


> '
> 
> I am going to trap out a hive from a tree in the next few weeks using the Hogan method and hope to trap the queen as well. This colony has been there for at least 10 years according to the owner. I'm anxious to get these bees to see how wells not a speck of brood in hive. The phoeretic mites are eager to lay eggs and the first few hundred bee larvae that become of age for the mites to lay eggs on get so overloaded with mites that it kills the bee larvae/pupae and the young immature mites die with the host. So the mites have in effect just committed suicide. This wipes the slate clean for the parent colony to build back up with a minimal number of mites present and the cycle starts all over again. When we hive these bees and manage them to prevent swarming are we allowing the mites to build up over a longer period to a dangerous level so it destroys the colony? they cope with varroa mites. Is it the swarming instinct that naturally curbs the levels of the mites in these bees allowing them to survive or do they have VSH characteristics? I hope to find out.


If the owner if the tree will allow it, you should leave the queen in there and just catch swarms from it. With the Hogan trap out you run the risk of losing the queen and bringing the genetic line to an end permanently. Catching and propagating swarms does no harm and could improve your apiary.


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## Joe Mac (Jun 1, 2016)

bentonkb said:


> If the owner if the tree will allow it, you should leave the queen in there and just catch swarms from it. With the Hogan trap out you run the risk of losing the queen and bringing the genetic line to an end permanently. Catching and propagating swarms does no harm and could improve your apiary.


I checked my trap today and had maybe a half cup of bees in it. The tree is a big red cedar and it looks like a pretty strong colony. I was puzzled why so few bees in the trap and I removed it. The opening where the bees are going in the tree is about 8' high. After I took the box down I saw a couple of bees in the air behind the tree. There is thick brush on the back side of the tree, but I made my way through it and discovered that the bees have a "back door". There is another opening about 2' higher and on the opposite side than the first one. That's why I didn't trap very many bees. The owner said they would leave them alone and agreed that I could come back in the spring and set out a swarm trap or two. I would much rather catch a swarm from it than try to plug up the other hole in a thicket and try to trap them out again. They said they have had swarms settle on trees in their yard several times over the years.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Joe Mac said:


> They said they have had swarms settle on trees in their yard several times over the years.


That sounds pretty promising. I have yet to come across a bee tree yet. Thinking next year that might make a good quest.


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## Joe Mac (Jun 1, 2016)

Nordak said:


> That sounds pretty promising. I have yet to come across a bee tree yet. Thinking next year that might make a good quest.


Nordak, have you read about or You Tubed any videos on bee lining? Hunting feral bees used to be very common. That's how people used to get their honey, by finding a bee tree and cutting it and getting the honey. My dad and I used to find bee trees and cut them (with a crosscut saw). That's how we got our first colony back in 1970. The bees were black and very nervous on the comb and quite aggressive. You can make a "bee lining" box pretty easy. There's even a company that makes one, but it's about $55. Search You Tube for Dr. Tom Seeley on bee hunting. He has a video about 10 minutes long on bee hunting. He's also the author of "Honeybee Democracy" and there's a video on it. Very interesting. 

I tried to find a bee tree near my home this past spring and was getting pretty close to locating it when I started running upon cottonmouth moccasins. I decided I didn't need to find the tree. From that tree is probably where some of the swarms I caught this year came from.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Joe Mac said:


> Nordak, have you read about or You Tubed any videos on bee lining? Hunting feral bees used to be very common. That's how people used to get their honey, by finding a bee tree and cutting it and getting the honey. My dad and I used to find bee trees and cut them (with a crosscut saw). That's how we got our first colony back in 1970. The bees were black and very nervous on the comb and quite aggressive. You can make a "bee lining" box pretty easy. There's even a company that makes one, but it's about $55. Search You Tube for Dr. Tom Seeley on bee hunting. He has a video about 10 minutes long on bee hunting. He's also the author of "Honeybee Democracy" and there's a video on it. Very interesting.
> 
> I tried to find a bee tree near my home this past spring and was getting pretty close to locating it when I started running upon cottonmouth moccasins. I decided I didn't need to find the tree. From that tree is probably where some of the swarms I caught this year came from.


That is really cool that you and your Dad got your first colony that way. My Dad used to talk about working those black bees with my grandpa. He described them much like you, said they were mean as heck. I have heard a little of bee lining, but after reading your post I am intrigued and want to learn more about the technique involved. Having recently been laid off from my job, I find myself having some spare time for such endeavors. That's what I love about this hobby, so many aspects to it and avenues to take. Thanks Joe Mac. Hoping good things come to you and your bees.


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

Joe Mac said:


> b. They said they have had swarms settle on trees in their yard several times over the years.


That is the perfect spot to trap a couple of swarms every spring for years if you play your cards right.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

bentonkb said:


> Catching and propagating swarms does no harm and could improve your apiary.


While your statement is true, just setting swarm boxes around is no guarantee of getting swarms. Catching swarms with swarm boxes is hit and miss at best, and mostly miss. 

With swarm boxes, your boxes must be the best place for the bees to go, and they have a say in that decision, and most often do not go into your box. With the trapping method, it is guaranteed. If you don't want to eliminate the colony, simply check for the queen on the frames before you move the frames or the box. If you find her, simply put her back in the tunnel, then move the frames or the trap.

You can easily get two or more starts each year from a normal tree colony, and do no harm to the colony, as long as you stop trapping in time for the feral colony to build up stores for the Winter. (In Kentucky I like to stop trapping 20 June each year.).

Set out swarm boxes where you don't have a known colony, use a trap if you want the bees from a known colony. Take the queen or leave the queen, that decision is up to you.

cchoganjr


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

ez to find bee trees - place out a couple of tablespoons of honey and wait 30 minutes - then watch the bees that retrieve the honey - which way they fly - later go 100/200 yards in that direction and repeat - in a day or two you'll walk right up on them


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I just bought Seeley's Following the Wild Bees and looking forward to reading all about it. After googling images of bee boxes, I'm interested in building one, and may do some hunting this Fall to find locations to set bait hives around. If I don't get my box built, may just go with your advice. You can say a lot about beekeeping, but one thing you can't say is it's boring.


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

Nordak said:


> I just bought Seeley's Following the Wild Bees and looking forward to reading all about it. After googling images of bee boxes, I'm interested in building one, and may do some hunting this Fall to find locations to set bait hives around. If I don't get my box built, may just go with your advice. You can say a lot about beekeeping, but one thing you can't say is it's boring.


I'm also working on a bee lining box. In fact, I'm standing in my shop looking at the wood that I milled yesterday for the project.

We are having a very wet summer, so it will probably be a few weeks before things dry up and the bees are hungry. That should make it easier.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Nice! Post a pic when you're done if you don't mind, may give me some more ideas. It's been a fairly rainy start to summer here, but there just isn't a whole lot blooming at the moment. I think I'll wait until it cools off some before I get real serious about it. Maybe there should be a bee lining section to the forums?


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByWz-UVL0w7-UW03V2VadEViQlU/view?usp=drivesdk

The link above is a picture of my bee lining box.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

That looks fantastic. Did you use metal for the slides? What is the thickness of the wood? I have yet to even start mine, sad to say.


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

Nice! Such post is worth its own thread.


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

The metal sliding doors are very thick sheet steel that I found in the junkyard. The wood is 5/16" yellow pine resawn from framing lumber. The end that is near the camera has a piece of fiberglass window screen in a wooden frame, held in place with hot glue. The rest of the box is done with yellow glue and brads.


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