# re: Splitting Nucs- Palmer Style



## vtbeeguy (Jun 10, 2016)

*Re: Splitting Nucs- Palmer Style*

I would simply let the hives build in size as big as you can get them and wait to split until after summer solstice. Also there is an argument to be made that you should not try splitting them till next year.


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## blacksnake1986 (Mar 3, 2017)

*Re: Splitting Nucs- Palmer Style*

Following .. I have the exact same situation lol.


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## cozybees (Aug 19, 2016)

*Re: Splitting Nucs- Palmer Style*

I hope that Michael Palmer writes a book or two and passes his knowledge on to the rest of us. The videos are awesome but a book would be awesome. I know he reads the old beekeeping books maybe he will add to that legacy!


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

*Re: Splitting Nucs- Palmer Style*

I don't have any details for you as to when to split, but one thing to bare in mind is that a strong colony makes better queens. To split and have a 5 frame nuc make it's own queen cells isn't the best queen making colony. I would build one up to a strong colony, double deep brood nest, then pull the queen and small nuc from it, maybe even frames from the other hive, so the strong leftover colony in it's original location makes a lot of good queen cells. When they are ripe and ready, then split the remaining hive or hives into colonies for the queen cells. You can get plenty of well made cells in that one queen cell building episode. Don't push too far and have a lot of weak nucs going into winter though.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

*Re: Splitting Nucs- Palmer Style*

The colonies I split for making nucs are nucs. Nucs that I allow to build in the spring, and then periodically harvest brood. I expect these brood factories to give me enough brood to grow enough cells and to make 5-10 nucs from each. 

So, it's not one huge splitting into multiple nucs. Rather you take what each of those queens will give you. Enough at each harvest so they won't swarm, but not so much they will dwindle. 

I keep mine in nuc configuration, and not 10 frame. The do get 4-5 stories tall. I harvest brood. Replace with brood comb. 10-14 days later harvest. Replace with brood combs. 

By July I'm just harvesting brood and honey for nucs, not replacing combs. Remove one story. Repeat in 10 days. Remove another story. Now I'm down to 3 frames of brood in factory bottom box. With a box or Tyson on top and the field bees. Give it a box of foundation/comb mix under the honey. Requiem if needed. Factory builds for winter.

I use only mated queens.


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## cozybees (Aug 19, 2016)

*Re: Splitting Nucs- Palmer Style*

Thank you Michael and I saw your edit about only using mated queens. I was just about to post the below just as I saw your edit. My main question is about that exact thing, Queens!

Thank you Michael but if I might ask a clarifying question… I have plenty of hive component resources and can make as much as I need to quickly. What I don’t have are Queen resources. 

As a beginner to beekeeping and wanting to build a sustainable apiary, I purchased two 5 frame nucs and placed each into their own 10 frame deep hive body. I gave them 5 foundationless frames each which are nearly completely filled with comb. They have begun putting nectar into these combs. 

So, if I harvest enough brood frames on my first harvest to make one nuc, for example, how would I queen the nuc without buying a queen? My thought was to notch 5-10 larvae cells that are less than 36 hours old from the frames of brood that I pull to put into the new nuc and let them raise their own queen. Is that something you would recommend? I realize that not being able to put a laying queen into the nucs I create will slow the growth of the nuc, but it is my first year and I don’t think I could be queen rearing at this stage of my operation. What steps should a new beekeeper take as they begin their journey towards having a sustainable apiary?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

*Re: Splitting Nucs- Palmer Style*



cozybees said:


> So, if I harvest enough brood frames on my first harvest to make one nuc, for example, how would I queen the nuc without buying a queen? My thought was to notch 5-10 larvae cells that are less than 36 hours old from the frames of brood that I pull to put into the new nuc and let them raise their own queen. Is that something you would recommend? I realize that not being able to put a laying queen into the nucs I create will slow the growth of the nuc, but it is my first year and I don’t think I could be queen rearing at this stage of my operation. What steps should a new beekeeper take as they begin their journey towards having a sustainable apiary?


A new beekeeper should buy queens until they know enough about colony management, and have built enough resources to do a good job at raising queens.


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## cozybees (Aug 19, 2016)

*Re: Splitting Nucs- Palmer Style*

Well, time to find a good queen breeder then! Thank you for your advice


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: Splitting Nucs- Palmer Style*



cozybees said:


> 2. When I split, do I simply notch 5-10 less than 36 hour old larvae and allow them to raise their own queen? I do not plan to buy queens but want to raise my own queens (or allow the bees to).


This was the mistake we made in our first couple of years before I really understood the process. We want to grow so split and let the bees raise a queen. The issue is understanding the whole cycle. The colony raising a queen has bees dieing off on the regular cycle as they age. In round numbers its three weeks from when made queen less till a new queen emerges, with brood emerging during this time. Then it's another week till she is mated and laying. After she starts laying its 3 weeks till brood starts emerging. During this time the population is dwindling and there are no young nurse bees to tend brood so the brood is tended by older bees. It takes 2 full brood cycles, 6 more weeks, for the colony to fully recover.

The walk away style split where you let bees raise the queen sets the colony back tremendously and you lose 2 months of brood productivity. On a good year they fully recover, and in a poor year they don't quite get back to full strength by season end.

Introduce a mated queen to the split and they have the equivalent of a 6 week head start on the one raising a queen, and you can probably split them again in 3 or 4 weeks. Starting with one reasonably strong colony and splitting with mated queens you can easily reach 4 good colonies over the season. Letting them raise their own you will end up with two in a good year.

The mistake we make early on is considering the split 'finished' when they have the new queen, but in reality that's when the colony starts to dwindle due to no more brood emerging. The split is not successful until the new queen has repopulated the dwindling colony back to full strength, and that takes longer than one brood cycle because the dwindling colony can only support a limited amount of brood while the first round of brood is in progress.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

*Re: Splitting Nucs- Palmer Style*



Michael Palmer said:


> A new beekeeper should buy queens until they know enough about colony management, and have built enough resources to do a good job at raising queens.


Colony management that's the key and it takes a lot more than you think with nucs. The first time I tried it I was woefully unprepared not enough frames or boxes or the little supers and I just used swarm cells they were great queens and they will swarm away if you don't know what your doing. Now I make twice the equipment that I'll need for the season.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

*Re: Splitting Nucs- Palmer Style*



cozybees said:


> Well, time to find a good queen breeder then! Thank you for your advice


Cozy you were just talking to a good queen breeder. 
And Michael I would love to get my hands onto 20 or so of your queens also. I did PM you.

Take care all.


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