# Massive die off - robbing, decease or something else - TF Queen



## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

This is a 1 deep hive / nuc headed by a TF Queen from this year. I have been feeding them and I thought they have been building steady. 

Couple of weeks ago, I inserted 1/8 inch screen in V shape into the entrance with gap on one end - like an entrance reducer but made with the screen, to help with ventilation. 

This morning, I observed very busy activity at one of the hives. Bees were just shooting out of the reduced entrance in mass. With heat and humidity, I thought they were just existing to hangout outside. Went in the after to check on and I see pile (about 500 or more) dead bees in the grass. Some are struggling in the grass. There appeared to be fighting going on at the entrance, but bearding right by the entrance at the same time. 

Never before saw such commotion. 


So quickly made a proper robber screen - square frame with 1/2 inch entrance on the top. Went to put in, removed the mesh entrance reducer I had and saw huge dead pile of bees inside the hive. I tried to scoop as many out as possible with the hive tool, but obviously the girls were pissed and took more stings than any other day. All in all, looks atleast couple of thousand dead bees if not more. 

I suspect there are more dead bees inside. 

But more importantly, most of the dead bees seem "small" on abdomen, have their abdomen curled in and tongues out mostly. I did see a mite on one of the dead one. 

So what could have caused this massive die off ?

If it was robbers, did they uncap and pull under-developed bees ? 
Did wasp or someone else is inside killing these bees ?
Is it some sort of decease ? If so, how come so much activity is accompanied by such die off ? 

Its going to be hot and humid for next couple of days. I am concerned about opening hive for the fear of inviting more robbers. But I am also concerned if this hive and queen survive this ordeal. 

Appreciate thoughts and advice.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i've never seen anything like that before daisy so i can't offer any insights.

robbers wouldn't uncap and remove underdeveloped bees.

it really sounds more like they got into some poison than some sort of disease or intruding wasps.


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## Andy382 (May 7, 2015)

I had what sounds like the same thing last year happen to one of my hives & tried to reduce space of hive hoping that would help & they died. Had the same thing start happening to another hive this spring. Mentor said to pinch the queen & requeen. I pinched the queen & let them raise their own. I thought what do I have to lose. It completely turned the hive around. The queen they raised has a beautiful laying pattern & the massive pile of bees in front of the hive disappeared. With you being farther north I don't know if you'd have time to raise another queen. You might have to buy one. But I would highly suggest pinch old queen & get new one in there. By the way I don't treat, these hives were Italian from commercial beek. In case that helps


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Peeked thorough the screened inner cover and robber screen. More dead bees at the entrance, inside the robber screen. View from the top shows frantic bees. Some are upside down on top bars and some fighting each other.. and the sound they make isnt a happy sound. Cleared the dead bees from the entrance and put the robber screen back on. Again, most of the dead bees have this curled in abdomen and tongues out.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Finally went in with smoke and its a disaster. Atleast 75% of the bees are dead. 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B80ZjPpUL3dkRXYzaEVqRG5TdzMwRkFOeWszRUQ4NnRJSWhj


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

That is typical of poisoning, particularly of a pesticide spray. Do you have other colonies in that location? Are any of them affected?


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Does poisoning explain the fighting?


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

When I had a bout of paralysis virus, the bees were exhibiting the same behavior kicking out infected bees, pulling of legs, etc. Perhaps it's a similar behavior in terms of removing contaminated bees?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Robbing looks like that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrCJKEvrHFM
I don`t think it`s CPV, my bees fed the sick bees on the entrance board, no fighting.
Could be poisoning, though.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm not certain what form of paralysis virus I had, but the bees were definitely hauling the sick ones out by brute force. The post was meant as a comparison, as if the bees were sensing some thing wasn't quite right with the bees, perhaps they are sensing trace pesticide.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> That is typical of poisoning, particularly of a pesticide spray. Do you have other colonies in that location? Are any of them affected?


There are 4 other small size hives / nuc in the same lot, 2 of those hives are within 10 ft, on the same stand as the affected one. This is residential area, with a 6ft solid fence between us and neighbor in this corner. Neighbor was cool with us having hives, so I dont suspect them spaying anything onto the hives intentionally. 

There was definitely fighting, pulling and biting wings going on. They could have sensed something wrong. Is it also possible that solid bottom was filled with bees and they weren't getting enough air / oxygen in there ?


BTW, thanks every for your input. much appreciated.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Sometimes a hive that swarms or supersedes later in the season becomes a little weak and is a target for robbing before they can build back up again. Was the queen marked? If its the original queen then maybe its as others have suggested.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

MJC417 said:


> Sometimes a hive that swarms or supersedes later in the season becomes a little weak and is a target for robbing before they can build back up again. Was the queen marked? If its the original queen then maybe its as others have suggested.


Yes, the queen is marked, still there as of last night.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

DaisyNJ said:


> But more importantly, most of the dead bees seem "small" on abdomen, have their abdomen curled in and tongues out mostly. I did see a mite on one of the dead one.


Underdeveloped bees are frequently associated with heavy varroa parasitism. 
As the colony weakens...the neighbors detect that weakness and take advantage. Huge losses from the robbing event, entrances blocked with dead bees and a loss of food spell the end for the colony.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

dan makes a good point here. until you mentioned the stench of death in the other thread i didn't think such a sudden die off was likely to be caused by varroa. but if dead bees have been slowly accumulating on the bottom board they may have started getting stinky by the time you recovered them. along with the stunted abdomens and robbing we have to have mites on our list of suspects as well. pay particular attention to what's going in the brood nest on your next inspections and consider having someone help you with an alcohol wash if possible.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> if dead bees have been slowly accumulating on the bottom board they may have started getting stinky by the time you recovered them.


 
I may have missed it in this thread but I don't recall any mention of honey stores. I've had colonies die from starvation in a much similar fashion. Usually a load of dead bees on the bottom board and if they remain for very long, they will stink to high heaven.
Mites, starvation, robbing.....often go together.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Poison?

The few clues we have so far are bees fighting, untreated hive, varroa mite seen, stunted bees, brood pulled.

Why do guys in the TF forum avoid the elephant in the room?

There's some more questions need to be asked before a reliable diagnosis could be made, why are they not asked?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Why do guys in the TF forum avoid the elephant in the room?


A rhetorical question...I'm guessing.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i was about to suggest that daisy post her case in the 'diseases and pests' section but she went ahead and did it on her own. i felt like she would get a better range of responses there than she might here, and she did.

i'm strictly shooting from the hip with my suggestions because i've never experienced an episode like daisy's, be it from poison, starvation, usurpation, or mites.

but i don't recall reading any reports in which there was a sudden massive die off associated with mites. again, no experience with it here, but what i typically think about with mite collapse is a slow dwindling with additional signs present such as dwv and crawlers.

so educate me fellers, is a sudden massive die off with the bee's curled up and tongues sticking out pathognomonic of varroasis?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> so educate me fellers, is a sudden massive die off with the bee's curled up and tongues sticking out pathognomonic of varroasis?


Acute Paralysis Virus (also Kashmir and Israeli) is characterized by really sudden collapses. It is a Varroa-spread syndrome. You get symptoms somewhat like those described. 
http://www.coloss.org/beebook/II/virus/1/1/1

In the cases of pesticide kill I have personally experienced, the bees have a spastic and trembling phase. They spin in circles, stumble and shiver. Logically, not all pesticides would kill in the same manner, but the trembling symptom has been universal for me.

I don't find the "tongue sticking out" a very useful diagnostic tool -- as it seems nearly universal. Even AFB is supposedly diagnosed with larval tongues sticking out.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks for that link jwc, i learnt me something new today.

we don't seem to hear as much about those viruses and their associated sequelae, perhaps because of the negative selection pressure on them described in the coloss reference, and...

can you give your best guesses given the information available, in ranking order if possible, as to what happened with this colony. it goes without saying that internet diagnoses can be tough sometimes.

ot and dan, i'm guessing you guys are alluding to the 'must be mites'/'can't be mites' silliness that crops up on the forum from time to time. i haven't seen that happen for quite a while now. hopefully we won't see a resurgence of it.

daisy, again sorry about your colony, but thanks for sharing your experience. the bright side is that you and some of the rest of us might advance up the learning curve a little bit because of it.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Sorry for posting in two places. First posted in TF as the queen was TF and then realized this topic became generalized so posted in Disease and Pests. I will continue my reporting in that general thread. Not trying to ignore any elephant. 

In summary (to answer some questions here)

1. One hive impacted so far
2. No stored uncapped 
3. No wax debris inside or outside the hive
4. Capped brood intact
5. Queen present as of last night full inspection
6. Bees are doing this "sizzling" like they were on hot pan
7. Various stages of incapacitated bees observed - some crawling in the grass, some sizzling upside down, some trembling, some alive but cannot move etc. 
8. There is this "dead" smell around the hive
9. No DWV observed

JWC, thanks for sharing the link for the virus.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

DaisyNJ said:


> 1. One hive impacted so far


Which largely points away from a pesticide event.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

OT, I've never seen symptoms like this linked with varroa. I would tentatively rule out varroa as the primary cause because the symptoms are not typical of varroa, however, this could be a virus spread by varroa. I have seen symptoms like this linked to pesticide. This is why I asked if there are other colonies at the location. Now that we know there are other colonies, I would tend to rule out pesticides. I have seen chalkbrood, stone brood, paralysis virus, hairless virus, collapse from trachea mites, collapse from varroa, and I've seen pesticide damage several times. This does not match any of the symptoms I am familiar with except one time years ago when someone sprayed their yard with spectracide and poisoned their neighbor's bees. Please don't write it off that I am trying to deny varroa's potential role in this colony's collapse. I am trying to match the symptoms to something that can produce them.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

DaisyNJ said:


> But more importantly, most of the dead bees seem "small" on abdomen, have their abdomen curled in and tongues out mostly. I did see a mite on one of the dead one.
> So what could have caused this massive die off ?


Very typical varroa/virus die-off. 

They come together. In the end, when the mites have done their "job" and the hive is dying, it is viruses that finish it. And other diseases sometimes too.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Fusion_power said:


> OT, I've never seen symptoms like this linked with varroa.


One issue I see is the acknowledgement of varroa only when a colony collapses from it as a single agent. If there are a pile of dead bees on the bottom board...typically in late winter.....with thousands of dead mites amongst them and there are plenty of stores remaining, then some will begrudgingly admit that it might have been mite related. Otherwise...it was something else.
The truth is, in my opinion, any colony carrying thousands of mites, as many hives do, is substantially less able to fend off any other parasite, pest or pressure. A mite weakened hive might finally succumb to robbing, lack of stores from poor foraging ability, shb, nosema, undersized winter cluster and any other imaginable problem.
To my thinking, the mindset of 'if I'm not going to treat then there's no point in testing' creates a convenient level of deniability. 



Oldtimer said:


> Why do guys in the TF forum avoid the elephant in the room?


It must be old age and failing eyesight because I always thought it was an 800lb gorilla.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Why do guys in the TF forum avoid the elephant in the room?


What room?

What elephant?



Fusion_power said:


> OT, I've never seen symptoms like this linked with varroa.


Seriously? It's 'textbook'.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

frankly dar, that doesn't even deserve a reply. let's not feed the troll.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> frankly dar, that doesn't even deserve a reply. let's not feed the troll.


Do you feel like my post was troll like? Except the elephant/gorilla comment...which was an attempt at humor.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Daisey, You might want to freeze a piece of Drone comb, then pull the pupae out and count the mites. I found four on one Drone a few weeks ago. I guess this is as good of a place as any to insert my two cents.
After listening to the impassioned arguments of both sides of the mite issue, I didn't know who to listen to, so I decided to attempt to be treatment free. It has not worked for me. I have started OAV treatments this year. I had two colonies this year that I had high hopes for in that they were in their third year without treatment, but during the middle of Summer they began showing evidence of high mite loads. After two years of IPM, I quickly learned the subtle signs of PMS. Poor brood patterns and a lack of vigor. I just finished the third round of OAV on all seven colonies.
There is nothing I can say about this issue that hasn't been said a thousand times. I had to find out for myself. I hope everyone that is keeping bees off treatments finds success and shares their results with the rest of us.

Mea culpa,
Alex


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

beemandan said:


> Do you feel like my post was troll like? Except the elephant/gorilla comment...which was an attempt at humor.


nope. your input has been valuable and respectful of others choices and experiences, and i got the joke.

but for a relative newbee to question someone with decades of experience with 'seriously?' and 'textbook' is just the opposite.

in my view the consensus is that this case is anything but typical, and we still don't have any definitive on it yet.

perhaps i should keep my peeves to myself, but it's not the first time the poster was admonished for trolling by others, in the top bar hive forum for example.

overall i'm sensing we have matured as a community here on the forum, i.e. we're not seeing many exchanges these days of 'you're an idiot for not treating'/'your an idiot because you do'. as entertaining as those were, it got old real fast didn't it? 

come on carlson, you're better than that, read the memo.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> we're not seeing many exchanges these days of 'you're an idiot for not treating'/'your an idiot because you do'. as entertaining as those were, it got old real fast didn't it?


I have to agree...the name calling has been dramatically reduced. And it really didn't do much other than fuel tempers.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> but for a relative newbee
> 
> perhaps i should keep my peeves to myself
> 
> overall i'm sensing we have matured as a community here on the forum


good post.
labeling others serves no purpose. i suppose many would consider your years as new too.

peeves are fine as long as one is willing to be open minded.

i would like to think the community has "matured" but this forum is the same ole, same ole. 
the limited number of contributors probably has more to do with this maturity you sense.
wishful thinking on your part though.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I had not read the diseases/pests forum post until now. Lets summarize what is known and what is still unknown.

Massive die-off of bees
Peculiar behavior of bees in the hive
Queen still present and from a TF source
Stores are normal, no immediate signs of uncapping
Only hive affected with 5 others at the location

There are a few things to be done that will help diagnosis.

1. Gather a sample of the bees into a small jar and place them in the freezer just in case.
2. Gather a sample of the bees into a small jar and place them at room temp out of sunlight
3. Open at least 100 cells of brood and count the number of mites, both drone and worker sampled
4. Use a low power microscope to check intestines for abnormalities
5. Might be worth checking trachea for acarine mites



> Seriously? It's 'textbook'.


I must not have read that book. When I saw bees die of varroa, it was always in early winter, not late summer. They died with large patches of affected brood and colonies almost totally depopulated as adult bees flew out of the hive and did not return. They had numerous very small bees with deformed wings emerging from the cells and hobbling around in the brood nest.

There is one question that has not yet been asked and should be. DaisyNJ, what is the genetic background of the queen? Is she from a known TF source? local swarm? Queen you raised? or commercial treated stock?

Here are my thoughts:

This could be nosema ceranae, I would not normally expect it to express at this time of year, a microscope would quickly rule this in/out.

This could be IAPV, at this point, I think this is the top contender. Symptoms and behavior align fairly close. Heavy varroa presence would tend to support this.

It could be a new virus strain such as the one recently found in Europe.

It could be one of the "crazy bee" parasites that have been found infesting a few colonies on the east coast this year. The bees in a jar at room temp should prove this true or false. I think it is a long shot.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

I originally started this thread here in TF as the queen was TF and wanted to get insight from TF folks. I did open separate thread in general Disease & Pests as I value opinion of all. So I really appreciate people to post responses in that general thread if you think this is result of lack of treatment. 

I am practical person and appreciate ALL input I have received so far. But sarcasm (or whatever you call it) against people who provide opinion is not helping.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Fusion_Power, the queen is from a well known TF supplier in the east coast. I have two more queens from the same supplier. These (3) TF queens were introduced into splits from a commercial Nuc (that swarmed) in June. In addition, I have a Nuc with purchased open mated VSH queen and another Nuc with locally produced daughter of a swarm queen.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

AHudd said:


> I had two colonies this year that I had high hopes for in that they were in their third year without treatment, but during the middle of Summer they began showing evidence of high mite loads. After two years of IPM, I quickly learned the subtle signs of PMS.


Hey Alex,

Not to hijack this thread, but was wanting to give you my experience this summer, as this very scenario just played out on one of my colonies this year regarding signs of PMS. After considering to requeen or not, I decided to let it ride and see if they could turn it around. After witnessing chewed larvae, uncapped worker brood at the rate of 50% or better, I was feeling like this hive was probably a goner. My last inspection, done yesterday, was a drastically different scene. Solid brood patterns, healthy colony of adult bees working on getting their stores up. Lots of eggs, young larvae in pools of jelly. My guess is their uncapping efforts were successful, and they rid themselves of the majority of the mites. This was a hive that had a 6% infestation in July. I haven't done another roll since, so can't be sure this is the case. All I know is they have seemingly turned it around. That being said, I never once saw DWV or any other viruses associated with mites. My point being, what appeared to be a hopeless cause seems to have been turned around. This winter will determine whether or not that was the case.

Where did your bees come from, if you don't mind my asking? I lived in Scott County around high school age, so I'm pretty familiar with your area. I would think there has to be a healthy feral population there.

Best to you and your bees.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I would think before this thread advances any farther, we should wait for evidence. I saw a blurry picture of dead bees in an aluminum baking tray, but no interpretable photographs or data.

FusionPower has laid out a pretty direct data collection list: mite levels based on uncapped brood, gut dissection for Nosema, and thorax dissection for tracheal. I would add a high quality, in-focus photographs of the brood area (for EFB, PMS, etc).

Stepping back farther, old beekeepers talked about "pasture" and fought hard to secure the best. Now "pasture" is not just abundant flowers, it integrates habitat quality.

For all we know, DaisyNJ (who lives in a rather congested suburbia) has some neighbor with a decades old stash of Sevin in the basement and uses it on the fall chrysanthemums. 

In the old days, a "pasture" with poison issues (or wet mornings, or farmers that cut the fall alfalfa before flower, or vandals, etc) would be abandoned by the keep, who would move onto a better site.

That sort of culling of real estate, where cream rises and the poor or risky locations are removed, is not practiced by the current crop of backyard hobbyists, but was a constant and major concern of the 1980-era keeps. The best advice to DaisyNJ might (reiterate might) be to find a better place to keep bees.

The risk in diagnosis is over-specification and erroneous certainty. I went through a period in 2007-9 when that period's crop of hobby beeks would announce in October that their hives had succumbed to "CCD". To my mind, those October collapses had all the hallmarks of mite syndrome, but no convincing the hobby beeks who were certain of their charismatic diagnosis of a mysterious disease. 

Overspecification happens when the terminal symtom of a hive collapse is conflated with the cause. A hive with high mite load will begin spiralling downward in July, but the coup-de-grace (say Chalkbrood) may not express until October. Resilency in a hive has a lot to do with mite load.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Dar,
please give me some information about this:


> It could be a new virus strain such as the one recently found in Europe.


Thanks.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

JWC and others - I am working on getting couple of videos (hope they stay focus and show something), a high res pic of the dead bees from y'day and alcohol wash results from two of the colonies next to this one. 

I will post all this info in the Decease & Pests thread - http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ey-do-kill-each-other-in-robbing-and-fighting


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> i would like to think the community has "matured" but this forum is the same ole, same ole.
> the limited number of contributors probably has more to do with this maturity


I don't know about this. I see a good number of long term posters, yet I also see a lot of new ones. I can think of many that I no longer see. And the loss of a couple of the more vehement has really gone a long way toward improving the civility.
This, to my thinking, reflects a sort of maturation.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Mite counts, pics and videos are up in other thread.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

JWChesnut said:


> I would think before this thread advances any farther, we should wait for evidence.


perhaps, but i think it's been pretty educational so far.



JWChesnut said:


> For all we know, DaisyNJ (who lives in a rather congested suburbia) has some neighbor with a decades old stash of Sevin in the basement and uses it on the fall chrysanthemums.


my first thought. and although the other hives appear unaffected so far suggesting something other than poisoning, it's within the realm of possibility that just this one hive could have gotten into something while the others did not for some reason.



JWChesnut said:


> The risk in diagnosis is over-specification and erroneous certainty.


good comment. 

and we may never get a final answer unless daisy is willing to spend hundreds of dollars for viral and pesticide analyses (which i probably would not do myself).

so at the top of our list of suspects is poisoning or a rare virus. i think the probability is greater for the former given the location and after watching the videos, but wouldn't be totally surprised if we end up learning that the latter was indeed the cause.

daisy, was the hive with the higher mite count the 'diagonal' hive?


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

SP, yes the hive with higher mite count is the one diagonal from the new location. That TBH hive tried to rob the affected one on Sunday. I saw a straight bee line.However, I am not sure if its the same one that tried to rob on Saturday with the original location.

Another curious (yet potentially distracting) fact for TF team is that these two queens were purchased on same day, their offspring look similar (italianish). The other TF hive with 1% mite count was purchased different day, queen and offspring look darker. Not sure if the yards they came from or batches made any difference. To JWC point, this could be "over specification".


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

and am i understanding correctly that you had those 3 queens mailed to you from the east coast and introduced them to some splits that you made up from existing colonies?


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

The behavior of the bees in your video I recognize as something that happened to one of my hives about a month ago, with minimal effect on the hive. The bees were writhing, rolling around. Best I could describe it they seemed in pain. I was offered two suggestions, starvation or poisoning. They had a 0 mite count at the time. They had a super of honey, so eliminated starvation. I still can't say for certain what it was, but it was the exact same behavior as your bees on a much lesser scale, hundred bees maybe.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Nordak said:


> The behavior of the bees in your video I recognize as something that happened to one of my hives about a month ago, with minimal effect on the hive. The bees were writhing, rolling around. Best I could describe it they seemed in pain. I was offered two suggestions, starvation or poisoning. They had a 0 mite count at the time. They had a super of honey, so eliminated starvation. I still can't say for certain what it was, but it was the exact same behavior as your bees on a much lesser scale, hundred bees maybe.


And this is the exact behavior thats been going on for last 3 days...literally taking down the whole hive. I will make another video from the top, but view from the top today is similar....bees on top bars behaving as if "they are on hot pan". 


SP - I picked these queen up in person. Dark queen one week and then two "italianish" queens a week later. hope that makes sense. And in all honesty, I dont think they ever got brood break. Being smallish nucs, I have been feeding all these in an effort to build up for winter. So additional pressure and no brood breaks.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

DaisyNJ said:


> And this is the exact behavior thats been going on for last 3 days...literally taking down the whole hive. I will make another video from the top, but view from the top today is similar....bees on top bars behaving as if "they are on hot pan".
> 
> 
> SP - I picked these queen up in person. Dark queen one week and then two "italianish" queens a week later. hope that makes sense.


How long does it take for residual poisoning to work through a colony? A question, not trying to establish a cause.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

:doh: i should have looked first. i see that you _are_ on the east coast.

but did you get just queens (and perhaps attendants) and put them into your own hives?


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> :doh: i should have looked first. i see that you _are_ on the east coast.
> 
> but did you get just queens (and perhaps attendants) and put them into your own hives?


Just queens (with bunch of attendants) and introduced into splits from a commercial nuc that swarmed in June.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

DaisyNJ said:


> Just queens (with bunch of attendants) and introduced into splits from a commercial nuc that swarmed in June.


have you contacted the suppliers of the queens and the commercial nuc to see what their take was on your colony?


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> have you contacted the suppliers of the queens and the commercial nuc to see what their take was on your colony?


After reading that tread about "Entitled to replacement queen" ? (just kidding). No, I havent. I am sure Commercial nuc folks cannot say anything because those bees have since been replaced with the TF offspring. And I am sure TF supplier (no fault of theirs) cannot diagnose this type of issue.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

DaisyNJ said:


> I am sure Commercial nuc folks cannot say anything because those bees have since been replaced with the TF offspring.


that's true but the most of mites and viruses would trace their pedigree to those present in the nuc when you purchased it, and maybe a few transferred in with the queens and attendants.

not so much for asking for a replacement, and assuming the suppliers would be straight up with you if you ask, it would be interesting to know if anything similar has been observed in their yards.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

As an aside, I saw a presentation from the main diagnostic bee lab in Canada, that showed attendants could carry viruses, but queens generally did not. There is a provincial recommendation to not release the attendants with the queen and this is probably the reason why. 

Didn't buy queens this year, but will try to follow this recommendation in the future. May have to come up with some gizmo to reduce the risk of losing the queen.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> that's true but the most of mites and viruses would trace their pedigree to those present in the nuc when you purchased it, and maybe a few transferred in with the queens and attendants.
> 
> not so much for asking for a replacement, and assuming the suppliers would be straight up with you if you ask, it would be interesting to know if anything similar has been observed in their yards.


Queen supplier was generous enough to respond to email. He thinks this is pesticide related. I am also asking couple of folks in the local beek association to see if anyone knows anything or if state apiarist can check it out.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

:thumbsup:


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

Daisy NJ, just a thought. What are you feeding these bees. I mean exactly, what are you feeding these bees.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

1:1 cane sugar (Costco) syrup. 3 cups of sugar with 3 cups of water, for example. Thats what I have been doing with all these Nucs. Method of feeding is, inverted jars with holes in the lids , inside the hive. No other feed of any type. They have been bringing pollen on their own.


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

I do not feed unless absolutely nessesary and I am not suggesting you adopt that philosophy simple because I do. I would suggest taking them off the feed for awhile and see if that helps. If you have a fall flow going on you should not need to feed anyway right now. See how much stores they have for the onset of winter as I know it comes earlier for you than us. Hope this helps.


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

Hi,

I've had 4 hives destroyed by robbing a couple of weeks ago: all semi-treatment free(once a year). The hives were dwindling fast because of varroa with all the known sings. I accept the losses since I also have many hives that are doing good.
It was quite a show. I should have filmed it but I was too desperate at the time thinking that my entire yard would be destroyed. It stopped the next day.

I have used an expired dose of acid the previous Autumn. Is this an issue(expiration)?


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

Actually I'm pretty broke because of mites - massive die offs like in winter.

The elephant is in the room but I can see it clearly.

I've reduced nests and treated today using OA dribble at a lower concentration and I'll treat them again in december. It's too late for many of them though. I don't think it's possible to keep bees without treatments in highly populated areas.
This year turned out to be a real disaster because of the mild temperatures in "winter" - AGAIN. This scenario is a disaster for the entire agriculture: extreme draught in Autumn and Winter + rainy and cold Spring and Summer.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

asd said:


> Actually I'm pretty broke because of mites - massive die offs like in winter.
> 
> The elephant is in the room but I can see it clearly.
> 
> ...


Yes it`s possible.
I´ve seen it with my friends and I´m on my way, too. My bees are not treated for some years now. We all have high populated areas.
I have a friend who has treated non resistant hives and non-treated small cell resistant hives right in the same bee yard. 
He works the resistant ones differently and they survive.

We have the same climate and the same weather like you.

But you have to regress first. You have to regress to a more natural beekeeping, establishing strong hives out of strong splits and leave them their honey for at least 5 years. You have to build up micofauna, this means every treatment will kill some of this.
You have to be careful to prevent robbing. 
You have to use more resistant stock to start with or if you believe in it, more resistant queens. But the queens will not help you if you go on with old school beekeeping like before and if you just go cold turkey.
You have to establish a non treated bee yard first with at least 10 hives, which you are able to select from.

It`s a project with much work, supervising every hive constantly and needs years. No profit.
And all the time it is possible to end up with one survivor but that`s enough.
Even without ferals to improve your stock.


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

I want bees for the honey. This makes no sense to me. I'm a reasonable man.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> I'm a reasonable man.


Varroa mites are NOT reasonable.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I want bees that need no treatments.
Honey comes last. But it will come. Some. Sometimes.


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> Yes it`s possible.
> I´ve seen it with my friends and I´m on my way, too. My bees are not treated for some years now. We all have high populated areas.
> I have a friend who has treated non resistant hives and non-treated small cell resistant hives right in the same bee yard.
> He works the resistant ones differently and they survive.
> ...



Great post SiWolke. Just wondering when you say small cell in Deutschland do you mean 4.9 cell, 5.1 cell, natural cell, or a combination of them all. Again great post.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

The cell question is overrated.
Bees are changing the foundations to their own liking as I found out and if you let them and do not sort out black comb.
In my area the natural cell size is 5.0 in worker broodnest.

My aim is to have smaller cells in worker brood nests than those of the beekeepers who cut drone comb. I don`t want to select mites into worker brood. In my area old school beekeepers use 5.4 cell size in brood deeps.
So having 5.1 would give the bees an advantage, too.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

I updated the thread on main Decease & Pets section. Interestingly, a TBH with queen from same batch TF also ran into same exact problem. TBH was facing different direction and about 20 feet away from the original affected hive location. Pile of bees at the entrance and not much activity. This one had mite levels of about 4% in the sample (alcohol wash test done by another beekeeper). 
Reduced entrance to prevent robbing and every hive in the backyard got OAV. 

At this point I am leaning towards viral infection. I decided to treat as none of these small Nucs got any brood break.


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