# Fresh comb sure is fragile...



## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

keep it vertical and be gentle, keep it out of direct sun for long too!


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## Mike Tuggle (Jun 20, 2010)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> keep it vertical and be gentle, keep it out of direct sun for long too!


I didn't even lift it up -- just pushed the angled end (only a couple of inches) back in line... then peel and flop.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

The key is to start with a guide that the bees will follow! I would suspect that several of the combs deeper into the hive are off track also.

What did you use for guides? Whether you wax it into a saw kerf or split your bars to clamp it between you are going to get your best results with a 1/2" strip of foundation right the way across the bar.


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## Mike Tuggle (Jun 20, 2010)

I have "well waxed" Popsicle sticks set in saw kerfs. Everything was centered except this one. And, it was OK except for the outside 3" on one end.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

Sometimes it's just bad timing, Mike. If there was a fair amount of honey in the comb, there was probably just too much weight on the comb for the amount of alteration you tried. The same fix a week or so earlier might have been OK, with less honey/nectar in the comb to weight it down. New comb is fragile, but if the bees are not building it straight, then you do have to try to fix it before the situation gets worse. But little changes are better than big 'uns.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> was OK except for the outside 3" on one end.


Then the bees are extending the cell walls for honey storage in that area of the comb. Still the comb before even with the mid rib tracking along the guide most likely has the cell walls extended slightly in the same area where the one that peeled off was off course. The thing to do is to shave the cell walls back to the bar they belong on so that the leading edge of the newer comb can track closer along the guide instead of being forced off the guide by the previous combs extended cells. A little curving at the ends is fine but you don't want it to get to the point that the mid rib of the comb crosses over to the next bar. Combs will easily tear apart at that stage.

Depending on how far along in building out your hive, spacers are a good tool if needed.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I have had many comb failures, most have been honey bars rather than brood bars. Once the new comb on a bar has been drawn out about 3/4 of the way or more and filled with honey it becomes heavy and unstable. Any angling of the comb from the vertical position when inspecting it will increase the chances of the comb breaking off completely or at least cracking and weakening it. You may have noticed that the bees normally will attach the new comb to the walls of the hive at one or two points on each side to help support the weight of the honey, even the bees realize that newly filled honey comb needs additional support. Brood combs hardly ever have added support attachments to the hive walls. In short, about all you can do is be extremely careful when removing new honey combs and inspecting them, and try not to do it on a really hot day when the wax is even softer. John


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

Mike Tuggle said:


> I have "well waxed" Popsicle sticks set in saw kerfs. Everything was centered except this one. And, it was OK except for the outside 3" on one end.


Is waxing the comb guide a good idea? It seems like it would create a weak point in the attachment. I have not started my TBH, so I'm just collecting information.

Thanks in advance.


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## bigevilgrape (Aug 21, 2008)

geebob, I haven't waxed my Popsicle sticks and they seem to build OK. I've read on here that it doesn't really make a difference if you wax or not. 

If its just the ends of the comb that are a problem I tend to take some scissors and just cut it.


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## mmxx25 (Jul 6, 2011)

Make sure your hive is level both ways relatively level. If you've got on side two inches lower than the rest they stray off the central grove and a few inches reaches over to nearby top bars so when you lift it opens up a rip that causes it to tear. Level both right and left level and up and down level.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

I highly recommend against any wax on the bars at all. Let the bees add the wax themselves. Adding wax makes no difference in straight comb attachments, but it could certainly weaken them.

Best,
Matt


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> I highly recommend against any wax on the bars at all.


When a beginner that hasn't handle bees let alone dealt with natural comb throws a box of bees into an empty hive and expects the bees to build nicely along a guide a foundation starter strip is going to get the best result. All that is needed is just a few to get the first few combs built out right. Once they got that they can use what ever they want but don't leave it to a hope and a prayer. I've seen enough waxless wedged bars where the first few combs even though built on one bar cross it diagonally. This is not acceptable as a starting point for beginners.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Delta,

Interesting. I've experimented with waxed bars and unwaxed bars and seen no difference. This year I've installed at least 30 swarms in top bar hives and Warre hives with unwaxed bars and I've only had a couple start out crooked. Maybe I've been lucky, or maybe it's the guides I'm using, but I see no reason to wax bars or use foundation strips in the hives we build.

Matt


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I have found rubbing new bars with hard wax is simple, and there's no way that wax will come off. It's a super-fine film, takes two seconds to apply, and you get the waxed guide without the fear of a weak comb connection. I find it to be a great compromise between no wax, or the more labor-intensive melted wax guide or starter strip.

Adam


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## marksmith (May 4, 2010)

I find if I have 3-4 inches crossed off the end of a bar that the 'problem' actually exists 2-3 combs deeper into the hive. I cut OFF the end squaring up where the good comb is on all the offending comb when they are heavy. I cut from bottom to bar, then from cut to end of bar. This compresses the comb and helps keep it in place.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> I've only had a couple start out crooked.


This is in part the point Matt. Anyone that has been around TBH's for any length of time can tell you they really don't like to deal with crossed combs if it is avoidable and there are many new beekeepers that had their first hive build their combs across bars and gave up on the TBH because of it. I think the wedged bar is right at the top of the list of good guides but I don't think I have ever heard of foundation starter strips being crossed over. I know I have never seen it. For beginners it is important that they have the best chance to succeed so that they continue forward with the hive to get a better understanding as to how it works.

Take a look at Linda's bees and feel her frustration. She has been keeping bees for several years in Langs so she has been around bees.



> Beyond Frustrated with my Top Bar Hive
> 
> I enjoy and admire Sam Comfort and am so pleased to have met and heard Wyatt Mangum speak, but neither of them addressed the problems I am having at Topsy. I don't know if it's how I constructed the hive, its location in Atlanta or what, but I hate inspecting it.


http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/2011/04/beyond-frustrated-with-my-top-bar-hive.html


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## Janer (May 20, 2011)

You might want to watch the new video that Long Lane Apiaries has this week. Go to Basic Beekeeping and he shows how to hold the bars while you inspect a TBH.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

Janer -- give a link? That would help me out. Thanks!


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## Janer (May 20, 2011)

http://basicbeekeeping.blogspot.com/

Sorry about that! I find this site VERY helpful, as I'm new this year and have much to learn. I swear, though.....someday I'm going to be very good at this! Ha!


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