# TF help on disease post please.



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i believe dr. cryberg gave you a good response on the other thread. it's hard to be treatment free with bees that come with a history of being treated and are showing signs of disease right off the bat.

my concern would be that the sick colony might be putting your other colony at risk. whatever brood disease that is can be transmitted by bees drifting between the two hives. the weak colony may be allowing robbers from your good hive in without even putting up a fight.

this is not what you probably want to hear, but i wouldn't be interested in having that colony in my apiary. i would likely euthanize it; or at the very least move it to an isolated location where it couldn't threaten other colonies, treat it, and requeen it with proven tf genetics.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Agreed
If you want to be strictly TF, put it down 

If I were in your shoes, given the pedigree of your your stock, and the fact your haven't treated for mites I would do a alcohol roll as PMS and EFB can look a lot a like (and both be there as well) if you have elevated mite levels, hit it with OAD 3x 7 days apart (Your TF and in salvage mode on your investment, no need to by a vaporizer) drop a few gallons on syrup on the hive to clear up the chance of EFB


> The disease sometimes goes away on its own at the onset of a strong nectar flow. The beekeeper may be able to control the disease by simulating a nectar flow (by feeding sugar syrup) and by requeening the colony.


 http://caes2.caes.uga.edu/bees/disorders/bacterial.html#efb and see if Sam Comfort over in the Hudson valley still has some TF queens available http://anarchyapiaries.org/hivetools/

If I was realy thinking it was just EFB alone I would move the old queen to a new hive body and new frames placed in the old location and shake everything in to it, hit it with a round of OAD(there is no shame giving a new queen a clean slate) and install a TF queen when it arrives.


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## Lady Bees (May 18, 2015)

Thank you squarepeg & msl, this is exactly the kind of thing I want to hear. Even though I "don't want to hear it" at the same time. Honest, helpful, thoughts from people are further along on the journey I want to take with my bees.
I am glad to hear anyone else chip in with their thought as well, so much to learn!

I was worried about the risk for the good colony too. Wouldn't moving the bad one cause more of the sick bees to go to the good one because it is close to the original location?

If I go that route, how do you euthanize a colony & be sure you get them all so no stragglers join the good colony?

And another big question, even with the reading I have done about EFB since I discovered this issue, in case that was the problem. I can't figure out if I destroy anything from this hive. Some reading makes it sound like I should burn the frames, scorch the hive bodies inside. Some sounds like it is safe to just remove the wax from frames, and others seem to be saying there is no need to destroy any of it since EFB doesn't produce spores... I want to be safe & not take a chance of infecting anything else, while not burning $$ that I don't have to, so thoughts on this would be great too! (BTW msl, thanks for the link, it was one I hadn't come across yet.)

Next step is to figure out making nucs & wintering them so I don't need to keep buying bees. Not sure how to do that with my only good colony being a nuc itself & our relatively short season & harsh winters. I have been reading about it like crazy & still don't feel like I know how to go about it really. Topic for a different thread I suppose.

Everyone out there with a mentor - be sure to appreciate how blessed you are to have them!!


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> i believe dr. cryberg gave you a good response on the other thread. it's hard to be treatment free with bees that come with a history of being treated and are showing signs of disease right off the bat.
> 
> my concern would be that the sick colony might be putting your other colony at risk. whatever brood disease that is can be transmitted by bees drifting between the two hives. the weak colony may be allowing robbers from your good hive in without even putting up a fight.
> 
> this is not what you probably want to hear, but i wouldn't be interested in having that colony in my apiary. i would likely euthanize it; or at the very least move it to an isolated location where it couldn't threaten other colonies, treat it, and requeen it with proven tf genetics.


I agree with SP. EFB is transmittable to nearby hives. There clearly are times killing a weak, beat up colony is the best route if you want to be TF. In fact, in my opinion it should be part of any TF program. I see EFB in a few colonies every year, almost entirely in nucs. It hits 10 or 15% of my nucs. I have never had one recover without antibiotics and never had one fail to recover with antibiotics applied per the label. I have not done the shook swarm and perhaps that and a new queen would work but drawn comb is gold and I will not throw it away when I can easily and safely cure the issue. Hygienic behavior by itself will not work. I run Minnesota Hygienics mainly so I do not have to worry much about AFB and they do help keep mite populations under control. Tests have shown simply requeening a hive with EFB with a MH queen will not stop the EFB even thou it will stop AFB. I really wonder if what is called PMS is actually EFB in a great many cases? I do not know if this is the case but in my experience EFB is a lot more common today than most people generally recognize.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

side bar, on the MH queens stopping AFB, would the combs still not be contagious? 

To be clear, in my head I was seeing a small struggling hive(that may not be the case?), my thought processes was (at least out here) the cost of a vet making a visit to get the feed directive may be in excess of the value (come next spring) of the larger hive vs resetting and overwintering it as a strong nuc.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

with regard to how to euthanize a colony...

i happen to have a large enough freezer to fit a double deep into. i would close up the entrance just after dark and put the hive into the freezer. after a day or so i would open up the freezer, remove the top and inner cover, and then reclose the freezer. the colony should be frozen to death after another day or two.

with regard to the comb that came with the sick colony...

given that it is very old and black, and given that the treatment history is unavailable, i would be concerned about the possibility of afb exposure and the build up of synthetic miticide residue and therefore not reuse that comb.


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## Lady Bees (May 18, 2015)

Thanks so much for the discussion guys, I appreciate it! I am not one who is good at making quick decisions and I know I need to figure this out asap...Figuring out if the time & cost is worth it in the end, since they may not survive the winter even if they recover...



Richard Cryberg said:


> I agree with SP. EFB is transmittable to nearby hives. There clearly are times killing a weak, beat up colony is the best route if you want to be TF. In fact, in my opinion it should be part of any TF program. I see EFB in a few colonies every year, almost entirely in nucs. It hits 10 or 15% of my nucs. I have never had one recover without antibiotics and never had one fail to recover with antibiotics applied per the label. I have not done the shook swarm and perhaps that and a new queen would work but drawn comb is gold and I will not throw it away when I can easily and safely cure the issue. Hygienic behavior by itself will not work.


I know you are right about the comb being gold, everything I read taught me that before I got any bees, then my couple years thus far confirmed it 😊 You say "cure" so are you saying that the comb is completely eradicated of the bacteria? The other question I have, you say you see cases every year, so do you think it is completely new cases or is it possibly left over in combs from previously infected colonies (nucs)? (I hope the question is not offensive, I don't mean it to be, I am truly trying to learn)



msl said:


> To be clear, in my head I was seeing a small struggling hive(that may not be the case?), my thought processes was (at least out here) the cost of a vet making a visit to get the feed directive may be in excess of the value (come next spring) of the larger hive vs resetting and overwintering it as a strong nuc.


Yes, you have the idea right, the colony was a 5 frame deep nuc when I got it, not obviously horrible, but I did notice the pattern a bit spotty at the time. I have only had queens that laid a acompletely solid pattern prior, and again in ignorance I just thought it was due to southern bees SHB etc. Then I was unable to inspect until just recently & realized the problem.



squarepeg said:


> with regard to the comb that came with the sick colony...
> 
> given that it is very old and black, and given that the treatment history is unavailable, i would be concerned about the possibility of afb exposure and the build up of synthetic miticide residue and therefore not reuse that comb.


Yes, I was immediately concerned about the possibility of contaminated wax when I found out it was commercial as well. Even before the issue I planned to get rid of the comb they came with asap. How about the EFB contaminating the other 5 deep frames of drawn comb and the medium box & 10 medium frames I added (they didn't have much honey in the nuc, so I gave them food.) Now the queen has laid in some of it. I only have the one deep hive body & few deep frames as I run 8 frame mediums with the exception of this one.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

msl said:


> side bar, on the MH queens stopping AFB, would the combs still not be contagious?


Only if you are a poor enough bee keeper that you allow robbing to get started. If you run MH queens from the start you are never going to have enough spores to worry about, at least in theory. AFB resistance was the objective Spivac had in developing MH queens back before varroa became a problem. The down side is they are not great honey producers. They beat the local ferals by a factor of four or five in per hive honey production, but queens bred to produce honey will stomp on them.


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## Lady Bees (May 18, 2015)

Ack! I wrote a reply yesterday & apparently did not hit submit!
Thank you all for the discussion! I have difficulty with making fast decisions & I know I need to deal with this asap.



Richard Cryberg said:


> <snipped> I see EFB in a few colonies every year, almost entirely in nucs. It hits 10 or 15% of my nucs. I have never had one recover without antibiotics and never had one fail to recover with antibiotics applied per the label. I have not done the shook swarm and perhaps that and a new queen would work but drawn comb is gold and I will not throw it away when I can easily and safely cure the issue. <snipped> I really wonder if what is called PMS is actually EFB in a great many cases? I do not know if this is the case but in my experience EFB is a lot more common today than most people generally recognize.


Thanks again for the replies! I appreciate it so much!
I understand what you are saying about the comb being gold, between reading done before getting bees & my couple years as a beek! My hives (minus the nuc frames) are foundationless.

When you say "cure" are you saying that the bacteria is completely eradicated? It doesn't stick around dormant in bees or comb etc. after the antibiotics? And equally important to me, do the antibiotics stick around in/on the combs? (I use all mediums with the exception of this one brood box, so combs in the hive body I added could possibly end up as honey being extracted. But even if not, I wouldn't want to be circulating antibiotics through my TF colonies down the road)
Along that line, in the interest of learning let me ask, when you say see some cases every year do you think it is new cases, or the possible previous combs are carrying it over to new nucs? (I hope that isn't offensive, I don't mean it to be in any way.)



msl said:


> To be clear, in my head I was seeing a small struggling hive(that may not be the case?), my thought processes was (at least out here) the cost of a vet making a visit to get the feed directive may be in excess of the value (come next spring) of the larger hive vs resetting and overwintering it as a strong nuc.


Yes, you have the right idea, it was a 5 frame nuc on deeps, that I added 5 more deeps & a medium hive body with honey frames to feed them as they had very little stored in the nuc.



squarepeg said:


> with regard to how to euthanize a colony...
> 
> i happen to have a large enough freezer to fit a double deep into. i would close up the entrance just after dark and put the hive into the freezer. after a day or so i would open up the freezer, remove the top and inner cover, and then reclose the freezer. the colony should be frozen to death after another day or two.


Hmm, that I have no way to imitate...



> with regard to the comb that came with the sick colony...
> 
> given that it is very old and black, and given that the treatment history is unavailable, i would be concerned about the possibility of afb exposure and the build up of synthetic miticide residue and therefore not reuse that comb.


Yes, I planned on removing the nuc combs asap even before I got it, figuring it wouldn't be from a treatment free source & as soon as I saw the frames I wanted it out even quicker, the entire frames are black, missing ears etc, showing the age. I don't care for the plastic foundation it is on either. Comb is so old that it is making small bees, I think even smaller than my small cell bees.

How would my foundationless combs I added to it need to be dealt with if I euthanized?


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Lady Bees said:


> When you say "cure" are you saying that the bacteria is completely eradicated? It doesn't stick around dormant in bees or comb etc. after the antibiotics? And equally important to me, do the antibiotics stick around in/on the combs? (I use all mediums with the exception of this one brood box, so combs in the hive body I added could possibly end up as honey being extracted. But even if not, I wouldn't want to be circulating antibiotics through my TF colonies down the road)
> Along that line, in the interest of learning let me ask, when you say see some cases every year do you think it is new cases, or the possible previous combs are carrying it over to new nucs? (I hope that isn't offensive, I don't mean it to be in any way.)


When I say cure what I mean is I do not see the problem come back in that set of equipment the rest of that summer. I mainly see EFB in May and June. So, there is several months for relapse to happen and I have never had a relapse. Boxes on my nucs get swapped around a lot early in the year and I do not keep track of where last years boxes end up this year. I can think of a couple of nucs that I cured of EFB and I used those two nucs for a couple of years to supply brood frames to build other nucs and the two I had cured never had a relapse. Both retained the original queens into the third year. I know because I marked those queens. EFB is about guaranteed in some hives if you pollinate some crops. Blueberries are notorious. Probably a combination of early season with cold weather and amino acid imbalance in the pollen that causes malnutrition. Many commercials use antibiotics during or after blue berries to deal with the problem and do not see relapses. I suspect the bacteria that causes it is near universal and it mainly hits hives with other problems such as weak or bad weather or malnutrition.

Commercial guys that use antibiotics have to avoid using them when honey supers are on the hive or there may be detectable residues in the honey which the honey bottlers check for and will reject such honey. Rejection means the producer pays freight to ship the product to the bottler and again when it is returned. So, it is an expensive mistake to make. Plus, he now has contaminated honey whose only legal use is to feed back to his bees for wintering. But, there are no problems with residues in wax resulting in antibiotics in honey. So I do not think wax contamination is an issue. The amount of antibiotic used for one treatment of a hive is less than would be in a single pill your doctor would prescribe for you to take several times a day for an illness. For adults the usual human dosage of terra is 1 to 2 grams a day divided into four doses.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Lady Bees said:


> How would my foundationless combs I added to it need to be dealt with if I euthanized?


good question, but one i cannot answer as i've no experience with what you are describing here.

to be honest, i haven't had to euthanize a colony yet either. i did have one several years ago dwindling from varroasis that i later regretted not putting in the freezer instead of shaking it out, and purposed myself to euthanize next time but it hasn't come up again since then.

having a definitive diagnosis for what is happening with your colony would go a long way toward providing answers to questions like that one.

if i was absolutely sure it wasn't afb, and after euthanizing (freezing), i might consider spraying the new comb with a bleach solution and letting it dry thoroughly before reusing.

but from your description it doesn't sound like there is all that much to worry about saving anyway, in which case it may not be worth messing with or taking a chance on.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Lady Bees said:


> And another big question, even with the reading I have done about EFB since I discovered this issue, in case that was the problem. I can't figure out if I destroy anything from this hive. Some reading makes it sound like I should burn the frames, scorch the hive bodies inside. Some sounds like it is safe to just remove the wax from frames, and others seem to be saying there is no need to destroy any of it since EFB doesn't produce spores...!!


In Europe we don´t use antibiotics in beekeeping. EFB comes and goes, it usually strikes in the beginning of summer when there is much brood rearing stress on bees. Your colony looks so bad, that I would shake the bees to new clean combs give them food candy, and melt the wax. There is no need to burn anything else but maybe the old diseased combs, if you have no possibility to melt them. No wood parts need to be burned. In case it is AFB you should keep the wax tricktly out of bees reach until it has been melted/burned. 

AFB spreads from diseased food, and to contaminate a hive needs to eat many hundred grams of food with spores. Drifting does not cause this much of food transfer, robbing does.


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