# Time to Get Serious About a Business



## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Here's where I'm at now and any advice would be appreciated. I was approached by a local country store and asked if I could provide them with honey. They are interested in raw honey without use of antibiotics or pesticides in the hive, which is very hard to find around here, but is how we produce our honey. She wants a guaranteed supply, and is ok with me buying from other beekeepers to keep product on her shelves. She sells around 100 lbs a month and is offering to pay me 80% of the retail price. So after giving it some thought, I've decided to go ahead and take this on. That means I need to get serious about being organized and starting off correctly. I'm fortunate to have some advantages to start with but I wanted to post and get everyone else's take on it as well. We currently have 10 hives and will be working on expanding up to 50 next year. I feel confident about our plans on how we are going to do that. 

(My long term goals for the business are to have a healthy local market for my honey and then wholesale any surplus. The thought of trying to retail large amounts of honey over a huge area makes my head hurt.) To get this business started I have so far: started a facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/Russellhoneybees), website and blog (http://www.RussellHoney.com), ordered business cards, 120lbs of honey plus the bottles/labels, have the supplies to do a test batch of soap and lotion (kids wanted to try making and selling these), have talked to the health department and our insurance agent.

I have two close friends who are helping me out of the kindness of their hearts. One is a marketing and sales director for a major food company. He has set me up with a professional logo and helped me get the website up since I have zero experience with that. The other is a small business consultant who has started up his own ventures successfully and has given me a ton of free advice. I talk about this venture to anyone and everyone because I'm so excited about it and I've had two people offer me money to get set up. I haven't taken any though. I talked to our local health department and he told me as long as I stay in his area (2 counties) he doesn't care what I do as far as retail goes. He said when I am ready to actually build a honey house he will work with me to make sure I meet the state requirements. If for some reason the not having a commercial kitchen becomes an issue I can use the fire department facilities until I get my own. My insurance agent quoted me at $100 a year for insuring the equipment, and we are already covered for liability under our current farm business policy. He's checking into any USDA insurance on the bees that might be available. We have an agri-business CPA that already handles our farm business and I'll be talking to him about what's next in that area. 

Questions: I'm still looking for the cheapest place for custom labels, so any help in that direction would be greatly appreciated. Any ideas on what the best organizational structure would be for a business that has plans to grow beyond sideliner? LLC, sole proprietorship, S Corp? What am I forgetting?

Thanks in advance!


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## Randy Andy (Jul 16, 2014)

East-west label In conshohocken PA oval labels around 4 cents a piece they're are great quality usually have to order about 5000 labels a shot, but they can easily change the weight to accommodate different jars. Go with an LLC offers some protection and isn't limited in growth potential


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

No offense here Cheryl but aren't we putting the cart before the horse here a little? Its great to have a business plan but generally as the business grows and becomes more successful each year you can then apply that knowledge base to address most of the issues you have asked about in your post. Beekeeping is at best a fairly risky venture, especially for someone without a background of successful beekeeping in the past; such as taking over the family business etc. I'm having a hard time grasping how your currently going to support the one country store who wants you to guarantee them 100lbs a month?? You will have good years and bad years like all beekeepers and your honey production will be a direct reflection of that. The local chemical free honey that you speak of is a scarce commodity, so how are you going to be buying that from other beekeepers and afford to bottle and label it and then resell it to the country store at a discounted price and make a profit on that arrangement? My advice is to grow gradually and seek the guidance of experienced people who keep bees in your area. 10-50 hives surely doesn't = an LLC. Good luck


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

It's not a local source of honey and just a few quick searches online turned up barrels of the stuff all over the country. I doubt I even make a profit for the first couple of years but the tax breaks of having it be a formal business make it worth it. I had an eBay auction LLC before the kids were born. Never made a profit until you took in the fact I got to write off a home office, a portion of our utilities, the gas I used when I was out and about, etc. I don't want to be leaving money on the table to the government.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

cheryl1 said:


> It's not a local source of honey and just a few quick searches online turned up barrels of the stuff all over the country. I doubt I even make a profit for the first couple of years but the tax breaks of having it be a formal business make it worth it. I had an eBay auction LLC before the kids were born. Never made a profit until you took in the fact I got to write off a home office, a portion of our utilities, the gas I used when I was out and about, etc. I don't want to be leaving money on the table to the government.


Barrels of Treatment Free Honey? Getting barrels of honey is not hard. Getting barrels of "raw honey without use of antibiotics or pesticides in the hive", which basically means form people who don't treat or heat is going to be more like searching for a white buffalo.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I'm sorry, I should clarify. She wants raw chemical free honey, not chemical free hives. She basically wants the honey to be pesticide tested so she can tell her customers it passed. That stuff is what's easy to find. Any honey I produce will from my hives will be without antibiotics or miticides and it will be sold for much more per pound than what her customers will probably be willing to spend. The market for that would probably be more big city farmers markets and true believers, not rural people on a budget just looking for honey that's not from China


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I did find two treatment free suppliers but their price was higher than this area would probably support.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

cheryl1 said:


> Questions: I'm still looking for the cheapest place for custom labels, so any help in that direction would be greatly appreciated. Any ideas on what the best organizational structure would be for a business that has plans to grow beyond sideliner? LLC, sole proprietorship, S Corp? What am I forgetting?
> Thanks in advance!


I would get a good quality laser printer and print your own labels to start with. This will let you figure out what works and doesn't without buying 5000 labels. Its also handy to be able to print just a few labels for product samples and trials of new product and packagin. Onlinelabels.com have lots of options.

I am not familiar with US business types, but in Canada, a sole proprietorship is the easiest and cheapest to setup. Incorporating can have tax and liability advantages, but also has higher setup and accounting costs. Incorporating is something you could do at a later date. If you are rapidly expanding, you likely won't turn a profit from tax perspective anyways.


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## bdouglas (Dec 18, 2014)

cheryl1 said:


> She basically wants the honey to be pesticide tested so she can tell her customers it passed.


Have you priced pesticide testing????


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

"She basically wants the honey to be pesticide tested so she can tell her customers it passed"..

Having sold my own honey in retail markets for almost 30 years I can assure you that customers like her are the exactly the types you want to avoid at all costs. Local sourced raw honey is a very easy commodity to sell. You surely don't have to cater to the whims of some country store owner that thinks she needs to be an expert on your honey. You strike me as the type of person that likes to learn from your own mistakes and that's fine as long as you don't mind the unnecessary lumps along the way. Many successful businesses are based on a long line of mistakes.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

With the 2 mentors you mentioned plus your own experience it looks like you have the business end of things covered.

Only comment I'd make on the business side is that 80% of retail is pretty generous for a boutique store, go for it. I'd be more worried for the store if this is typical they have very narrow margins factoring in costs.

The beekeeping side is more problematic. If you check out TF beekeepers you will find their fortunes wax and wane, even the ones who have been around a long time. Thinking you will be different will come back to bite at some point. So you need a back up, in the form of agreements with other beekeepers who will supply should you be unable to.
As the honey just has to be tested chemical free rather than come from actual chemical free hives, one strong and reliable source I can think of would be Jim Lyon on the forum here, he treats for mites but uses a very intelligent system and his honey tests chemical residue free every year. This is the kind of person you need to be talking to if you want to guarantee supply.

Good luck with the new venture.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I was planning on buying honey already tested (already found a supply, but having two would be even better) so I haven't priced pesticide testing. The store has been in operation for close to 10 years now so she must know a little about what she is doing. 

I do like to learn from my own mistakes lol, but I also take advice if I'm headed for a train wreck. 

From the outside looking in at this business, it seems like having contacts and honey sources beyond your own is a good idea. If I don't have a harvest, I can still serve my customers, although with a smaller profit margin. Please correct me if I'm wrong. 

I've found that with business, like life, things run smoother if you can get as many ducks in a row as possible at the beginning. There are always risks, but hopefully by starting small and organized I can keep the road from getting too bumpy. I haven't posted or announced that I have any honey and 30ish pounds of it is already spoken for lol.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

I honestly wouldn't worry about taxes on this kinda hobby. Your biggest expense may be constantly replacing your dead hives and then having to buy the honey to fulfill your commitments. Just remember that hobbies are supposed to be fun or relaxing!!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

bdouglas said:


> Have you priced pesticide testing????


The price has just been increased to almost $400 per sample for a 174 compound pesticide screen from USDA's Gastonia lab. Expect a wait time of somewhere around 2 months.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

It's not a hobby for me.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

No advice from me but good luck-
Bill


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Thanks!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I was quoted 332 dollars for pesticide testing from a lab that Beltsville referred me to. That is in the ballpark of Jim Lyon's quote.

Unless you buy honey from a big supplier in one lot, you will have to test your honey every few weeks. That would be prohibitively expensive. 

You are aware that most synthetic miticides are considered pesticides, and would show up in the testing? It would not be "chemical" free honey if it came from a hive that was not "chemical" free.


Jim - correct me here, but did they not find trace amounts of some nonbeehive chemical in most honeys tested?

Crazy Roland


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Roland said:


> I was quoted 332 dollars for pesticide testing from a lab that Beltsville referred me to. That is in the ballpark of Jim Lyon's quote.
> 
> Unless you buy honey from a big supplier in one lot, you will have to test your honey every few weeks. That would be prohibitively expensive.
> 
> ...


The $332 turned into $396 this fall. 
I dont know of any widespread testing program that's been done on honey. The only testing I am aware of is done by private packers like Sue and Barkmans. Doubt if they have ever released a compilation. The results I have received from them has been negative for any beekeeper applied miticides or antibiotics. Doubt that they are doing the more comprehensive panel.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I'm confused. If apivar is applied in the fall, honey is harvested in the summer, and the apivar product information says it won't be in the honey, and the pesticide testing done by the supplier says it is not present in the honey, wouldn't that fit the general idea of chemical free honey? 

I will be clear with the store owner what the supplier uses and that the testing is done by them, not me. I doubt I ever do pesticide testing, although I guess never say never.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Here's my advice, let her sell all your honey she can, you focus on the bees until you get where you need to be to make it a business. You may find being treatment free and growing to 50 hives and maintaining or growing further isn't so easy or perhaps it will which will make it that much easier.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

When I started keeping bees I thought treatment free sounded great. After spending a couple seasons here on beesource, now not so much. I do have hopes that expanding will be manageable with using the softer treatments only and staying away from the miticides and antibiotics. We'll see.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The buying and selling honey didn't work out for me. Money lost. Maybe you will be better at it than I. Best wishes.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

cheryl1 said:


> I'm confused. If apivar is applied in the fall, honey is harvested in the summer, and the apivar product information says it won't be in the honey, and the pesticide testing done by the supplier says it is not present in the honey, wouldn't that fit the general idea of chemical free honey?
> 
> I will be clear with the store owner what the supplier uses and that the testing is done by them, not me. I doubt I ever do pesticide testing, although I guess never say never.


I guess you would have to pose that question to your customer and clearly spell out what your management practices are. It's really relatively easy to produce honey free of beekeeper applied miticides but that doesn't necessarily make it free of all trace amounts of environmental chemicals.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I'll be upfront with whoever I do business with for sure.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Only to the extent to which it doesn't jeopardize sales.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

First you need to develop a way to manage your mite loads. No bees no honey. Being a middle man for another beekeeper is not worth the effort.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ian said:


> First you need to develop a way to manage your mite loads. No bees no honey. Being a middle man for another beekeeper is not worth the effort.


This. It's fine to buy honey to make up a shortfall. Focus on becoming a very good beekeeper (not trying to imply that you aren't already), take care of your bees and you will find a market for your honey. Perhaps this one is more trouble than its worth.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

sqkcrk said:


> Only to the extent to which it doesn't jeopardize sales.


That's a fine line I will try to find  

I use formic acid and OA. So far so good, but it's agriculture so we'll see.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

You do not think that any of the Formic or Oxalic acid(pesticides) that you put in the hive is left behind? You do not think that your bees visit any fields that are being, or have been, sprayed with pesticides? You can bet they bring it home. How else does it kill all the bees in the hive?

My point is that claiming your honey is "pesticide free" is dangerous. Even claiming "treatment free" is dangerous, seeing as formic and oxalic acids are mite treatments. 

Ron Householder and myself are the few that do not use any of the acids or synthetic miticides. Have you priced his honey?

Crazy Roland


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I'm not treatment free. It has been my understanding that formic acid and oxalic acid are acceptable treatments for organic honey, not that they are registered pesticides. Is this not correct? 

I'm not labeling my honey pesticide free, but I will have conversations with my customers that the honey I have for sale has been tested for pesticides and passed (whenever that is really the case). 

I'm label shopping now. Logo, raw honey, required by the state contact info, net weight. That's probably all I will have room for. There's not even any space to add unheated, pesticide free etc. Those little bears are tiny lol


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I checked out Ron's website and prices look higher than elsewhere, and the largest size he had listed was a 1 gallon bucket.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Everything is possible when you find a way to do so.
Before you sink in too much resources, run a test trial first.
Keep track of expenses and profits to see if it is a doable long term
sustainable venture.
We all know that beekeeping is all local so it might works for you there.
Go ahead to try and give us the good news. Some beekeepers can produce queens 
better than honey while others can produce honey the most. Some can only sell
the bees so they make more nucs each year. Whatever is the most profitable for
you to sustain your business then go for it. Nothing venture nothing gain!
The local strawberry farmers been trial testing on the asparagus for 2 years already. Some for 3 years with good result. This year they are growing their
operation further with more asparagus plants added. So they have found a source of complementary plants because in off season the asparagus will produce for them both in the Spring and in the early Autumn here. I have to remind them not to over cut the asparagus to save some ferns for a strong root development the next season. Yep, some people can be greedy with a sense of initial succe$$. But watch out!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You can probably - almost certainly - sell 100 pounds of your local honey per month on average on your own - without making any commitments. If you are a member of a church or other large local social group you can probably sell 1200 pounds lf honey within a month of harvesting it. For 100% of retail.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Roland said:


> Ron Householder and myself are the few that do not use any of the acids or synthetic miticides.


How are you managing mites, splits? queen confinement?


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I bottled 120 pounds last night. It went well. It took me about 1 1/2 hours from start to finish. Some thoughts: 
-my 5yo son helped me. He worked the whole time and didn't mention Minecraft or what he wants for Christmas even once. That's a huge win. 
-I need a bottling tank at some point, although I was getting a lot better at filling the bottles with my honey gate by the end. 
-I hate those little bears. 
-I haven't blasted out that I have honey yet and have already sold several pounds myself. 
-I'm not trying to make a living reselling honey, just a profit. Retail profit per pound averages $2 per pound and direct sales profit $4 per pound. Of course those amounts will go up by $3 per pound when I have my own honey. 
-Even if I only make a few hundred dollars between now and next harvest, that's $$ I didn't have. Plus experience is something I really need and I felt less agonized over the bit of spilled $3 honey vs spilling some of my own last year. 
-


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

cheryl1 said:


> -my 5yo son helped me. He worked the whole time and didn't mention Minecraft or what he wants for Christmas even once. That's a huge win.


My 6yo son helps too. Mostly with the lids. We always have to give them a second check - the odd one won't be quite tight enough. Great to get them started helping when they are young. He helps with assembling and painting equipment too.


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## Hive5ive (Nov 21, 2015)

Hi, been watching Beesouree for awhile, finally joining in. I'm also trying to make my way to a sideline business... I want to retire in about five years and work the bee business.
My question for you is I'm seeing you're repackaging bulk honey. Do you label it differently than your own?
Thanks


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## Randy Andy (Jul 16, 2014)

How did you lose money?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I imagine Ron Householder will sell in 5 gallon pails and barrels also. Send him a PM. They will be priced accordingly. Not using strong miticides is more expensive, and the honey rightly too.

Crazy Roland


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Thanks Roland I will. So far I'm making money.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you have the business thing down, bees and hive products can add to the revenue stream.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Crossing my fingers my bees make it through the winter. Three people have approached me about Spring nucs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do you have nucs going into the Spring? OverWintering them? Consider how selling bees will effect your plans for growth.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I've wondered about that. I have ten all with 2015 queens. I'm thinking I may sell two nucs, put them in their equipment, and send the over wintered queen with them. The money to help pay for expansion would be nice. 

I wouldn't consider it if two of the people who've asked hadn't been as supportive and helpful as they have been.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I'm also in kind of a strange financial situation where if I can show my husband I can make some money, he'll allow more money to be invested lol.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

Hmmm... I often think of selling bees as a nickel now or a quarter later. If you are trying to build numbers then you just can't sell. Your numbers are small, but look at it like this: the bees sold is a one time payment vs honey wax and a extra hive to split next spring for more growth. If you could find a near by commercial you maybe even can send them south or west to increase your chances of winter survival and maybe even make a percent of a pollination check.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Good point


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

dups!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Easy money often costs what one could make in the long run and still have live hives to Winter over for another Spring and Summer season.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If you want to sell some nucs then raise your own queens.
You can also get some Hawaiian queens for the early nucs but not sure if
the cost will cut into your profit.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Grafting and queen building skills are on the list for 2016, providing I have the resources.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't want to be on a yo-yo diet anymore.
A sign that people grow skinny and then fat again once they're
off the diet plan. The same thing with the hives. At 10 this
means it is expansion time to 25 or more in one season. Grafting
should help you considerably if you don't want to buy more bees. Selling
the nucs is when you have the extra bees that you don't need coming out
of the winter. Also consider putting some bait hives around your area to get some free bees.
Also to put out some hives at a far distance to minimize the potential disease threats. No need to
put all of your eggs in the same basket.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

I would disagree. At 10 hives you don't need the skills of grafting. Start to learn that when you own a few semi loads. Buy queens from a provider that sells queens you like or if you prefer cells talk to someone in your area that does graft. When you split and put in a mated queen you are done. If you split with cells you have lots more variables as to the success of the hive. Plus if the bees tear down your cell then it's almost a month before you will have their new queen laying. I would stick with mated queens and focus learning your honey sales at this point.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cheryl1 said:


> Grafting and queen building skills are on the list for 2016, providing I have the resources.


A good stage in your beekeeping life to learn queen rearing. Go for it. Buy all of Larry Connor's books. His "Essential" series of books on queen rearing. Available from Wicwas Press.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Thanks sqkcrk. A big reason for trying grafting next year is my 12yo thinks it's neat and wants to try it. I do have a breeder of local queens about an hour away from me, so that's always an option too.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Essentials is on Amazon as well. I just added it to my Christmas wish list.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cheryl1 said:


> Thanks sqkcrk. A big reason for trying grafting next year is my 12yo thinks it's neat and wants to try it. I do have a breeder of local queens about an hour away from me, so that's always an option too.


Get a queen or two from them and graft. Get your 12 yo started early and she/he might just like it. Might just be able to find a part time job with your queen breeder neighbor. Your child's eyes and manual dexterity may be just what is needed to do well at grafting. I once tried to get my wife and daughter interested because of their sewing skills, but Barbara didn't want to b around the bees that much. Oh well. Go for it. What do you have to loose?


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

Thank you for making this thread, learning tons off of all the feed back.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Sounds like a plan. And another thanks to everyone. This is a great thread


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

cheryl1 said:


> Thanks sqkcrk. A big reason for trying grafting next year is my 12yo thinks it's neat and wants to try it.


Something about that. Grafting is the easy part and even first time around is actually pretty simple.

Where most new players mess up is not having their cell raising hives set up properly, so they get poor results or no cells finished at all. So study up on cell raising hives. The basics are you need a STRONG, QUEENLESS cell starter hive or starter box (you'd be surprised how often new players get one or both of those wrong), and a STRONG cell finisher hive. If the bees are not collecting much nectar start feeding the cell raising bees 2 weeks before the graft to put them in the mood.

The cell raising hives can be in many configurations, a cloak board is a great way for a new person who only needs a small number of cells to do it, only one good strong hive is needed and it is a fairly fool proof method, and the hive is simply turned back into a normal hive after the cells have been raised.

Re grafting, get a grafting brush or tool, and have a few practise sessions before the actual graft proper, just open a hive, pull out a brood frame, and have a try at removing and placing some larvae, then you will be good to go when the big day arrives. Learn what is an under 24 hour old larva and ONLY use those.

Re grafting tools, the popular Chinese retractable grafting tools are so bulky and unwieldy I don't know how anyone uses them. My own opinion is a quality sable hair AAA paintbrush is best. However whatever works for you.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

babybee said:


> I would disagree. At 10 hives you don't need the skills of grafting. Start to learn that when you own a few semi loads.


When you have a few semi loads you don't generally start grafting, you quit!


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Semi loads of hives will require a different business plan lol


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

lazybhoney said:


> When you have a few semi loads you don't generally start grafting, you quit!


I started grafting after my first year and had 3 hives. You should learn asap. Saves a ton of money and make some to boot.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

I attended a conference over the weekend and Mike Palmer spoke. He really inspired me with his passion. One of the big things he spoke on was that this whole beekeeping thing is supposed to be fun. Raising nucs, grafting and raising your own queens, is some of the most fun you can have in this. My desire is a bit different than yours as I am focusing more on queen and nuc production sales than honey. Do not put limits on yourself or let anyone else put limits on you. If you want it bad enough you will find a way to make it work or learn something from it and tackle it from a different angle. If you can get yourself to overwinter 20 nucs and 10 production colonies, you should be able to make and sell 50 nucs the following year at $150-$175 each. So now if the retail honey side does not work out or is not as profitable then you have something else to fall back on. The money in beekeeping is in the bees not the honey. But why not do both if you have the opportunity with this store. Check out some of Mike Palmers videos on queen rearing, you will love it. Good luck and keep us posted!
-Dave


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

Lazybhoney, why would a large beekeeper not graft for themselves??? We raise so many that we throw away about a 5 gallon bucket full every year. Of course to me it's a necessary evil vs fun. But most of real commercial beekeeping is about money not having fun. Now if it's a hobby then yes have lots of fun!!


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

So far I'm having fun with this. I'm almost break even on the buy and repackage honey venture and I haven't even delivered the store honey yet. I still have 50ish pounds to outright sell as well. Just by taking the business aspect of it seriously I've learned how to build a basic website, blog a little, and I'm working on learning to use SEO, long tails, and attract those Google spiders. It's interesting and not something I've ever dealt with before.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Look like you are having fun already. Keep up the good work!
Yes, with 10 hives you definitely have some bee resources to do
a graft from. I did my grafts in my first year when the bees had expanded in the Spring time. 
All the infos you ever needed are on BS here so no need to buy any book unless
you're a bee book collector too. I still haven't read any bee books yet. I have consistently made big and healthy well fed queens to pick and choose from to head my production hives. If you find that you can raise better queens and cells then put an ads on CL to see who would like some. Maybe another source of revenue here. When you have read enough from all the successful bee teachers here to combine their knowledge into one to make your own set up then the result is much much better. 
So respect the bees then the Bee Fairy will blessed you. I don't waste bee resources unnecessarily to conserve valuable resources. Watching the you tube CCD documentary of all the empty hives from the bottom of the hill all the way up made me realized that this company or beekeeper must of done something that made the Bee Fairy mad at them. Fortunately all my bees are still expanding but a bit slower now in this cold weather. So don't let what others see in their own situation to dictate your own outcome because we all should know by now that beekeeping is totally local. What will work for you might not work for me here.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

babybee said:


> Lazybhoney, why would a large beekeeper not graft for themselves??? We raise so many that we throw away about a 5 gallon bucket full every year. Of course to me it's a necessary evil vs fun. But most of real commercial beekeeping is about money not having fun. Now if it's a hobby then yes have lots of fun!!


When you got big enough, you HAVE to make choices. I would say darn few (and yes I know a lot of them) commercial guys don't produce their own queens. There are many large guys who do that just to SELL queens. but if your producing and packing honey, or moving around for pollination, you don't have time to do mateing yards and grafting and genetics. you buy queens either cells or finished queens, and get on with the day. Obviously there are some exceptions but the vast majority purchase queens. Thats why Kohnens, Oliveraz hietkum and many others specilize in queens.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

I am lost, lazybhoney, first you say few commercials don't produce their own cells (I am in total agreement) then you say that the vast majority purchase queens. Now I don't doubt that lots of commercial guys buy loads of queens, it's just that most make or buy cells first. Then use queens for checking (either purchased or raised). If the average commercial beekeeper runs around 2000 hives why would he want to buy 40 to 50 thousand dollars worth of queens annually vs grafting and installing a ripe queen cell for pennies on the dollar and get similar results? Now if one were a hobbiest looking to expand on their 10 hives then mated queens really make sense considering that they would spend 250 dollars vs all of the work and support equipment needed to raise cells and then the work involved to check the success of the cells.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Variety of reasons, first, when you talk cells, not many will sell cells and ship them. Most commercial guys are in the fields either Dakotas, or pollination, and not near home so dragging that equipment around is a pain. second the take rate on cells is a bit lower. Most make the tradeoff of cost vs failures.

Simple math proves it. 2 million commercial hives roughly, and if you take the numbers of the top 12 queen producers you get to 1.6 million pretty quick. example this year I bought 1000 queens from one source. yup 20k, but compared to the labor cost to produce and 1000 cells and get them mated, and the labor to pull 2000 supers at the same time, it was a simple decision.
When you get to full truckloads of hives you have to make decisions. For example Queen cell production takes some "skill" that skill is only valuable for one month out of the year. lets say you have a guy that could handle it, where is he more valuable, making queens, or manipulation and splitting hives? Unfortunately you can't run down to the local employment office and get skilled help for 2 months.

Not saying its not a good idea, just saying few actually practice it, most opt for a finished queen in a cage.
lets take that 2000 hive number, if your pollination fees for the year are 150, and honey is another 150, you now have a 600k year gross. that 40k for queens was actually probably 30k, but still your only major hive expense. the rest is taken up by trucking, honey processing, and meds/mites. When you put it that way its not as bad. Spend 20 to make 300 is a deal.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

lazybhoney said:


> most opt for a finished queen in a cage.
> .


Not the guys I know.  Who would spend twenty plus on a queen when you could cell for far less AND get that much needed brood break.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

lazybhoney said:


> Simple math proves it. 2 million commercial hives roughly, and if you take the numbers of the top 12 queen producers you get to 1.6 million pretty quick.
> 
> Not saying its not a good idea, just saying few actually practice it, most opt for a finished queen in a cage.


Something isn't adding up here cause I can probably come up with a handful of guys that produce in the neighborhood of 500,000 queen cells in east Texas alone every spring. I wouldn't even think of going back to purchasing mated queens. Raising queens from cells in the spring is cheap, easy and if getting a brood break isn't reason enough to do it, then just the fact that you aren't shutting them down by sticking them into a cage a week after they have started laying is reason enough you are probably going to end up with a better queen. Lower acceptance? Sure, I'll grant you that it will probably drop from 90 to 95% to 80 to 85% but I just factor that in when we start. 
Yes, there is obviously a market for mated queens. A lot go into packages for backyard beekeepers that don't get counted in the annual surveys. Many commercials choose to move their hives from the almonds back to the Midwest to rebuild the dead outs when it's too early to expect cell mating conditions, others aren't willing to give up an apple contract and prefer to reload on the fly by sticking a mated queen in with four combs of bees and head to the next gig. Some are using mated queens in checkbacks in April and a few are even splitting large populous doubles at the first of the year to get a few more bees in the almonds. Nothing wrong with any of that but it's not everyone's business plan and it's certainly not the business plan that the majority of northern honey producers I know is using.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

With alot of producers useing 2 or more a year the numbers get big pretty fast, Wasn't my intention to debate the math of where they all go. Obviously many opt for cells, and many buy finished queens. Far north is also like to buy finished, My point was that as you get bigger, many of the guys forgo raising their own queens, and opt for someone else doing the grafting. pick the poison.

When you talk about packages thats a whole other market, and roughly 1/2 go to other beekeepers, and 1/2 to retail.... very odd market indeed.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I made a batch of beeswax lotion today. I'm doing soap this afternoon. For Christmas all the ladies on my list are getting a gift basket of our items and a business card.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Lazybhoney >> "Obviously there are some exceptions but the vast majority purchase queens".. 

so it appears that two of the most respected commercial beekeepers on this site with many many years of commercial experience directly refute that statement. It always interests me how large commercial operations actually do manage their hives and run their businesses. Thanks Jim and Keith.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

that would be two of them that post here..... You miss the other 1198........


And you miss the point, The point was simple odd you don't see it. 
Jim says hes dropping cells also, Jim are those cells you buy or do you graft them? Same question to Keith.....


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

lazybhoney said:


> that would be two of them that post here..... You miss the other 1198........
> 
> 
> And you miss the point, The point was simple odd you don't see it.
> Jim says hes dropping cells also, Jim are those cells you buy or do you graft them? Same question to Keith.....


We graft for ourselves and several other large commercials.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Okay, so your one yard doing cells for Others..... As you put it several, which was my point Thanks


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Your point has confused me somewhat. I'm not sure what poison I've picked by requeening with cells.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> Your point has confused me somewhat. I'm not sure what poison I've picked by requeening with cells.


Sorry about that, My original point was that most larger scale guys are not producing their own queens, they are buying, most I know at the moment are not found of cells, but prefer mated queens. You and Keith both postulated that a lot like cells, I would agree with that although We disagee slightly on the portions. That was a moot point. I agree cells are fine also, and its an emerging market. More and more are opting for cells.


But the real point of the thread and my comment was that larger does not mean you do everything, such as grafting. Many times as you get larger you specialize and avoid some task like queen rearing, be it cells or mature queens. when you run the numbers there are 40-50 major queen (and cell) producers, and 1000 honey producers. yes some do their own queens, but a lot also forgo that pain. and specialize in different areas.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

Every commercial bee outfit can forge their own path. I personally like to have control in my whole operation particularly in the most important bee in the hive. I don't think the same is necessary for a beginner running 10 hives. If I had 10 hives I would expand with mated queens, and I would buy them from a few providers the see which I liked the most.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

With only 10 hives I rather control the local
genetics going into my hives. So buying the mated
queens from different sources is out of the question.
Once your apiary is stable enough with the local queens
then you can experiment more with the mated queens to enhance
your genetics. Until then I would stick with the local mated
queens so that I can pick and choose the cream of the crop.
Until you have 100 or 1000 hives don't skip on the most important
part of the learning curve that is to do some grafting yourself just
to experience it. I have learned the most about bee behavior and genetics when 
doing my own queen grafting. After the 4th generation about 10% remaining of
the recessive genes.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I've done well so far with this little venture. I'm not losing money hand over fist so I have the home boss' ok to keep on. Space on two different retail shelves. Business all set up and legal. Figuring out how to do a website a little at a time. I'm learning as I go and trying not to outgrow my knowledge Other than shipping a few boxes this has been fun. Budget and planning for 2016 done. So far so good


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, we know you are moving fast.
Caution on an open forum to post anything about
the $$$ making issue. I would keep that private too.
The progress is made once you have found a way to do this 
when you see the right opportunity. Just like beekeeping at
first to take the baby steps. And learn the pitfalls of running a
bee business. Keep it up!


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Thanks


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