# wll queenless hive start new queen cells if it already has some?



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hi Farfd,
I'm glad to hear the OH hive re-queening worked out. I had my doubts on having enough drones.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Anyone?

I am starting my queen rearing process today and would really appreciate any response to my question from those with more experience.

-fafrd


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## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

Not sure what you are asking. "Once the queen cells on the frst frame are capped, can they be moved back into a queenright hive for finishing?" Once it is capped it is finished.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

*Re: Newbie question on queen rearing - please help*



fafrd said:


> My question is what will happen if I add another frame of fresh eggs and day-old larvae to the same queenless split 5 days later and once there are already queen cells started on the first frame? Will the bees continue to make more emergency queen cells on the new frame if there are already some new queens 'on the way'?


5 days might be too long. Try 24-36 hours, and remove the first frame with cells to a finisher or another strong queenless nuc.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

*Re: Newbie question on queen rearing - please help*

Thanks Michael. So just to be clear:

1/ queen cells that have already been started should be removed from the queenless starter colony before fresh eggs / larvae are added to build more queen cells, correct? If the alread-started queen cells are not removed, the newly-introduced eggs/larvae will not be deveoped into additional queen cells, right?

2/ 5 days might be too long, but what does that mean - that once the first batch of queen cells has reached the 5-day stage, the queenless starter colony will no longer begin new queen cells even if the first batch are removed?

3/ started queen cells can be removed 24-36 hours after introduction but doesn't that mean that they need to be removed to another queenless colony? If queen cells that have just been started are introduced back into a queenright colony, won't they be destroyed?


thanks everyone or your help. only have a few hives and so am trying t understad how I can mximize queen production from a single queenless hive without needing anything other than my strong queenright hive in addition.

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

brac,

Sorry, I was not clear. I'm trying to understand whch parts of the overall process can be managed in a queenright colony and which parts require a queenless colony. So what I meant by 'finishing' was the incubation phase from capping to just before emergence. Said anothe way, if a capped queen cell is introduced into a queenright colony, will it be allowed to incubate to emergence or will it be destroyed?

Being more explicit, I am tryig to understand which of the fllowing phases can be perfromed by a queenright colony, which can be performed by a queenless colony that already has queen cells started, and which can be perfromed by a queenright colony:

A/ starting queen cell - queenless colony without any queen cells aready started only, or OK in queeless colony that already has some more mature queen cells started and in progress?

B/ completing queen cell to capping - queenless colony only, or OK in queenright colony?

C/ incubating queen cell from capping to just before emergence - queenless colony only, or OK in queenright colony?

thanks all for any clarification,

-fafrd


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

*Re: Newbie question on queen rearing - please help*

Thanks Michael. So just to be clear:

>1/ queen cells that have already been started should be removed from the queenless starter colony before fresh eggs / larvae are added to build more queen cells, correct? If the alread-started queen cells are not removed, the newly-introduced eggs/larvae will not be deveoped into additional queen cells, right?

I've never tried, but I assume it would work that way. Remove the first cell bar frame, and insert a new graft. The started cells are placed in a queenright finisher.

>2/ 5 days might be too long, but what does that mean - that once the first batch of queen cells has reached the 5-day stage, the queenless starter colony will no longer begin new queen cells even if the first batch are removed?

The first cells should be removed in the 24-36 hour range. I don't use starter/finisher setup. So I can't say if they'll start new cells after 5 days...do you mean 5 days old or 5 days after grafting? I would think you would get a better take removing the first started cells sooner.

>3/ started queen cells can be removed 24-36 hours after introduction but doesn't that mean that they need to be removed to another queenless colony? If queen cells that have just been started are introduced back into a queenright colony, won't they be destroyed?

You place the started cells in a queenright finisher. Basically...a hive with sealed brood and queen below excluder, and unsealed brood above the excluder. Started cells are placed above excluder next to frame of pollen. Nurse bees are up there to feed unsealed brood and finish cells. Read a book on queen rearing. Look up starter/finisher method.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

*Re: Newbie question on queen rearing - please help*



Michael Palmer said:


> do you mean 5 days old or 5 days after grafting? .


I meant a second new frame of eggs and day-old larvae installed into the queenless starter 5 days after the first new frame of eggs and one or two day-old larvae have been installed into the queenless starter. I am not grafting but controlling the empty comb available to th queen to get the queen to lay on newly-drawn comb. By the time the second frame is tranferred, the eggs and larvae would be 5 days old or less and they would be getting transferred 5 days after the first frame of eggs and larvae had been transferred (and hopefully are started by then, 5 days following transfer).

From your response, it sounds like the queenless bees in the starter are unlikely to begin new queen cells if there are more mature queen cells that they have already started present when the new frame is installed. Would you leave the starter bees without queen cells for 24 hours before transferring in the new frame of eggs and 1-2 day old larvae or do you think that removing the older frame of started cells and tranferring in the new frame of eggs and 1-2 day old larvae would be OK?




Michael Palmer said:


> You place the started cells in a queenright finisher. Basically...a hive with sealed brood and queen below excluder, and unsealed brood above the excluder. Started cells are placed above excluder next to frame of pollen. Nurse bees are up there to feed unsealed brood and finish cells.


So cells which have already been started can be finished by a queenright colony as long as the queen is kept away with an excluder (and open brood with nurse bees are close by). I assume that the queen would destroy the cells if she was allowed to get close to them.



Michael Palmer said:


> Read a book on queen rearing. Look up starter/finisher method.


Any particular books you would recommed for the small-scale hobbiest looking to raise a few queens (5-15 at a time) without the need for lots of dedicated hives?

thanks for you help,

-fafrd


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Usually once they have started q-cells in the hive they will act like a queenright hive and not start more.

Removing ALL of them should re-start the process.

Personally, I would just take the queen from the strong hive and start a nuc/split with her and a frame of open brood, shake in the bees from one other frame of open brood. Come back to the original hive in a week and make as many splits as I could with the cells that they've built. I think a week should be about right to find capped cells without any having emerged yet but I could be off a little?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Yes, but only if they have larvae young enough to be grown into queens. Generally queenless hives are not able to produce new fertile eggs (because they are queenless), so there is no way for them to obtain more fertile eggs or eggs that could be grown into queens, without thelytoky. Of course, if you have other queenright hives you could transplant eggs or young larvae to overcome this difficulty.

Another issue to consider when growing a second batch or subsequent batches of cells is that they may not have enough correct-age nurse bees to properly care for any new cells, they will probably try, but the queens produced will possibly be underdeveloped.


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

Is this a single deep hive or a double deep or? If the eggs are in the top super or deep, i would place a 3/4 in. spacer between the two. Sometimes they will build queen cells on the bottom of the frames and stick them to the bottom hive(frames) and when you take them apart you will tear those that are stuck to the bottom. Jack


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

*Re: Newbie question on queen rearing - please help*



fafrd said:


> Any particular books you would recommed for the small-scale hobbiest looking to raise a few queens (5-15 at a time) without the need for lots of dedicated hives?


No matter how many queens you are going to raise, it's worth having a good book on the topic.

_Queen rearing and bee breeding_, Harry H Laidlaw and Robert E Page Jr.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

YES

2009 I dequeen a strong 5 frame 9 5/8 nuc pull out the frame with the most eggs and very small larva shook off the nurse bees and gave the frame to another hive, put in 2 bars of a graft of 30 cell cups and on the day they were all sealed I went through the brood frames and knocked off a few emergance queen cells then placed another graft bar of about 15 new day old grafts, then did it the 3rd time this was not just one 5 frame nuc but did 4 of them that year.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Velbert said:


> YES
> 
> 2009 I dequeen a strong 5 frame 9 5/8 nuc pull out the frame with the most eggs and very small larva shook off the nurse bees and gave the frame to another hive, put in 2 bars of a graft of 30 cell cups and on the day they were all sealed I went through the brood frames and knocked off a few emergance queen cells then placed another graft bar of about 15 new day old grafts.


Thanks Velberr. Just to clarify: when you added the second graft to the queenless nuc, did you leave the first graft which was newly capped in place or did you remove it?

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

*Re: Newbie question on queen rearing - please help*



Michael Palmer said:


> No matter how many queens you are going to raise, it's worth having a good book on the topic.
> 
> _Queen rearing and bee breeding_, Harry H Laidlaw and Robert E Page Jr.



Thanks Michael - I will get ahold of this book and appreciate your recommendation.

-fafrd


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

fafrd said:


> Thanks Velberr. Just to clarify: when you added the second graft to the queenless nuc, did you leave the first graft which was newly capped in place or did you remove it?
> 
> -fafrd


Left the first graft in the cell builder until it was time to place in the Mini Nucs and when I done the 3 rd graft the first one was take out and the 3 rd graft was placed in its place. about the 5-6 day after the first graf is sealed you need to go through the cell builder and knock off all the straggler queen cells that are on the frames. If planning on using futher about once a week add a full frame of hatching brood (*always keep EM-queen cells knocked off the added frames of brood)*or 2 lbs of nurse bees out of the brood nest of another strong colony. or try this
http://www.box.net/shared/pakjm8pk0c


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Velbert said:


> Left the first graft in the cell builder until it was time to place in the Mini Nucs and when I done the 3 rd graft the first one was take out and the 3 rd graft was placed in its place. (*always keep EM-queen cells knocked off the added frames of brood)*




Velbert,

this is the information I was looking for - thank you. I'm going to try adding a second frame of fresh eggs and larvae a few days after adding the first frame without removing the first frame and I will let you know how it turns out.

thanks!

-fafrd


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## WPG (Mar 28, 2010)

fafrd, I don't want to hyjack your thread but Velbert had a link to a file share about queen cell grafting that looked pretty good. 

The problem is when I went to download it my security system popped up a warning about it being a phishing webpage that steels credit card numbers, passwords etc..

Anyone know anything about Box dot net? It claims to be shared securely, but I don't know enough about these things to know if my software is too touchy or not.

Goodluck with your queens. Raise plenty of extra drones for them, they are supposed to be very promiscuous.


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