# Paternal Effects on the Defensive Behavior of Honeybees



## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

If you are free flighting queens in AHB area, grafting from European stock produces a slightly more manageable colony than "pure" AHB queens x AHB drones. European queens mated to even a single AHB drone are defensive, but at least a little more manageable. 

That being said, I still prefer working with European honey bees.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Dr. Latshaw, with your knowledge and experience I liked you to help me improve my breeding program , taking into account my gene pool is a little hot. How do I select for less defensiveness without having to resort to other ecotypes (eg . ligustica, carnica, or buckfast )? Thank you!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Eduardo - I don't know how populous your apiary is, mine is starting over after a disaster, so I am small right now.

First of all, it is best to begin with excellent stock. It takes years to make genetic progress toward a goal. That said, small apiaries will probably do best to breed from every queen possible, and grow lots of strong colonies. They benefit more from making more bees than from making desirable bees until they grow large enough to take advantage of selection.

Mid-sized apiaries (100 to 400 colonies) should start being more selective, trying to improve the stock. "De-selecting" becomes as important as "selecting"...aggressively re-queening poor colonies, killing drones from colonies that have traits you are trying to demote.

Large apiaries enjoy the ability to be very selective of both queen and drone stocks, allowing only the best to mate. They usually see more rapid progress by doing this. Their main worry is not keeping enough genetic diversity, and they can always import excellent stock from a different breeder to get out-crossed vigor if they feel that diversity is lacking.

Drs. Guzman-Novoa, Hunt, Page, et al, is probably correct. I notice that defensiveness around the hive is largely a male-passed trait. I'd love to get some bees that exhibit a high degree of thelytoky and extreme gentleness and compare over several generations with bees not possesing thelytoky and equally as gentle, controlling the matings of the colonies of the former group, letting the latter group open-mate. It should confirm the findings in the study, but the numbers may give hints as to exactly how the traits are being passed. I hope to purchase all of their books soon.

You are fortunate to not have to select against "hot" bees. Dr. C.C. Miller used to select ONLY for honey production, which translated into many defensive colonies. But they made LOTS of honey per colony.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Right now I have hives on 7 winter apiaries, the largest with 90 colonies and smallest with 21.

I was thinking to use the least defensive hives to brood drones. But I was a bit confused with the study's findings because it's not even very likely that this plan gone work.
I think I have no solution : I use the least defensive lines to brood drones. Do you have a better idea?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Good that you have over 100 colonies from which to select. Develop a list of genetic priorities and an overall scoring system. From the best overall X% of colonies (X% is large if you total colonies are few, small if you have many colonies) , select your breeder queens. From the highest scoring of the least defensive, select you drone mother colonies, raising these about 3/4 mile from your open-mating yard, if possible. Also, make it a habit to purchase SOME queens from at least one different breeder every year, in order to keep some genetic diversity. Keep all bloodlines at least 3 years before destroying/requeening, as recessive traits may prove valuable, and may not be showing yet.

Drone flooding is not easy until you have many, many drone mother colonies, so breed LOTS of these. One normal bee colony may have only 200 drones. That is only enough to have 4 to 10 queens "well-mated". This can be improved upon by adding drone brood combs (like Pierco), but lacking this, It would be good to keep 1 or more drone colony for every 4 queens you intend to raise. I hope to get up to 1 drone colony per queen some day, but that is very ambitious.


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

I found with my bees that assessing the colonies and culling all the fiery queens was a much quicker route to improvement than merely breeding from the good ones. 
In any open mating system it's pretty obvious that saturating the air with drones possessing beneficial properties, and trying to reduce the incidence of undesirable drones, is very important to success.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

kilocharlie said:


> Also, make it a habit to purchase SOME queens from at least one different breeder every year, in order to keep some genetic diversity. *Keep all bloodlines at least 3 years before destroying/requeening, as recessive traits may prove valuable, and may not be showing yet*.


Thank you kilo! Since 3 years now I buy some queens or colonies to other beekeepers to avoid inbreeding problems.

mbc how do you assess it:"drones possessing beneficial properties"?


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> mbc how do you assess it:"drones possessing beneficial properties"?


Their grandmother's colony is a good one. Rough and ready, but how else?


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

mbc said:


> Their grandmother's colony is a good one. Rough and ready, but how else?


Yes I am also not to do otherwise . But as I said the likelihood of non- work out is still very high . See below please

"A queen may have high defensive alleles yet produce a fairly gentle colony. The alleles may show reduced expression in the workers because they were maternally inherited; but if she is used as a drone source, the mating could result in a defensive colony."


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It is a good idea if you can manage the drones from the aggressive hives. And at the
same time introduce the stocks to requeen all your hives with a gentle breeder queen's daughters.
Still you have the other local drones to consider that are not coming from your hives. They maybe
the aggressive or gentle type too.


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Yes I am also not to do otherwise . But as I said the likelihood of non- work out is still very high . See below please
> 
> "A queen may have high defensive alleles yet produce a fairly gentle colony. The alleles may show reduced expression in the workers because they were maternally inherited; but if she is used as a drone source, the mating could result in a defensive colony."


This is why pinching them out when they do show undue aggression helps more in the longer term than merely breeding from the gentle ones, removing those "high defensive alleles" from the picture.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

MBC is pointing out the main advantage in having a larger operation. When you have many bee colonies, you can afford to be more selective, aggressively de-selecting colonies that don't quite make the grade. Eduardo has what I call a medium-sized operation, where the percent retained is still a bit high, but de-selection starts to play an important role. Progress becomes faster.

As his operation gets even larger, and he's running 4 beekeepers and 2500 to 4,000 hives, he can afford to get VERY aggressive at de-selecting anything but the best. Soon, his entire apiary is shaping up nicely, and his bloodlines are very, very good, yet still have enough individuals represented that inbreeding is not a problem. Genetic progresses very rapidly compared to the small operation.

It becomes apparent that several beekeepers all judging the bees for traits need a way of reporting on some kind of level playing field, so taking notes and setting standards is critical.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

mbc said:


> This is why pinching them out when they do show undue aggression helps more in the longer term than merely breeding from the gentle ones, removing those "high defensive alleles" from the picture.


For do that with some acuracy (not to throw the baby down the drain with the water) I need to upgrade my information system about my hives up to several generations ago. I'll have to improve this aspect. It is relatively easy! Thank you mbc!

Beepro is not in my plans requeen 400 hives. Buy more gentle lines in Am iberiensis open mated is a very optimistic assumption. You never know what 's in the box! Whenever possible I prefer to do my improvements with my own bees. I'll buy some queens to avoided inbreeding .


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

kilocharlie said:


> It becomes apparent that several beekeepers all judging the bees for traits need a way of reporting on some kind of level playing field, so taking notes and setting standards is critical.


This is what several amateur bee breeding groups are working towards in Britain, it is all very sensible and commendable but the reality is progress is more assured in a commercial venture where there are one or two very focused individuals doing much more, and more accurate, assessing and record keeping than could be hoped to be achieved by a bunch of well meaning amateurs working disparately on their days off.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

kilocharlie said:


> It becomes apparent that several beekeepers all judging the bees for traits need a way of reporting on some kind of level playing field, so taking notes and setting standards is critical.


Yes kilo this strikes me as my critical point to improve some more. My system allows me to track down a generation ago, at best to two generations. I have to upgrade to this system.


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> I'll have to improve this aspect. It is relatively easy!


Lol. me too, and if only!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

kilocharlie said:


> Drone flooding is not easy until you have many, many drone mother colonies, so breed LOTS of these. One normal bee colony may have only 200 drones. That is only enough to have 4 to 10 queens "well-mated". This can be improved upon by adding drone brood combs (like Pierco)


 Or you could try partial foundation like this. Early spring I have good numbers of mature drones. Later in summer they start backfilling with honey



















Foundationless areas in Colonies I don't necessarily want producing drones get hacked out and replaced. Good mite control measure if that is your intent.
Why would I give frames like this to colonies I don't particularly want to produce drones? Because they will make drones anyway, usually sporadically over standard frames. This way they are all in one area, easy to find and remove_ if you are small enough do that on a regular basis_. 

I give more of these frames to colonies I want to encourage drone production, fewer and more strategically placed to those I do not, so they can be cleaned regularly. It keeps other frames clean of messy drone comb if you give them room to produce them.

About 3 seconds with my hive tool run around the inside of the foundationless area and they are out.



















I don't get any messy drone comb on the top or bottom of other frames like this when I give them room to make drones. Trying to clean off those drones is a more invasive, juicy, milky mess.










If you really want to produce drones, give them a 1/3 sheet of foundation frame. This frame was placed later during the flow away from the broodnest. But if placed lower, earlier, I have no dount it would be filled with drones.










Heres another 1/3 sheet that was directly above the main brood nest in a third deep. Obviously, no excluder was used. 










Sorry about posting these photos so much here on beesource, but they work so well for several reasons, I had to mention it for drone rearing


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

It is really difficult to out-compete AHB colonies. Select your most manageable colonies and graft from them or purchase European queens and graft from them to get a more manageable hybrid. There does not appear to be an easy solution...


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Eduardo & mbc- I use Personal Ancestry File (PAF) from the local genealogy society and give my queens first, middle, and last names as well as ID numbers. Easy to track lots of generations, and it's a free download.

Lauri - I just knew that YOU would have a cool method! I really like the 1/3 sheet of worker foundation idea. I use Pierco green drone comb for IPM until it's drone season, then it goes to the drone yards, and foundationless combs, too. Your 1/3 trick will make it a lot less expensive to "drone up" for queen rearing season. Is that stack of 8 drone comb chunks in your hand a Dagwood sandwich for a bear, or a varroa factory?

JSL - I used to keep AHB for the good traits they express, and have been working on refinements for a while. I lost them all last year when the cave they were situated in collapsed. I had them under 3 layers of Q.E. cages so they could not swarm nor send out drones.

In trying to get rid of AHB, the best way I've found is still vigilant re-queening with aggressive drone comb freezing, and placing queen cells from docile colonies in feral AHB combs. Kill their queen if you can find her, but admittedly, it's not easy with AHB.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Really, a small strip down the center of the frame would be enough to stablize the foundationless comb in the deep. I have some scrap 1/4 sheet strips I'm going to try next season -just to see.....what the heck.

Here you see a 2/3 sheeet, 1/2 sheet and 1/3 sheet.

You don't want to know how many people have asked me what I do with the two small pieces I cut off the 2/3 sheet. (Make one cut to get your 1/3 sheet) 
I use 2/3 in my broodnest area, 1/3 sheet for half sized deeps, drone comb or x-large honeycomb production.










You can see a 1/3 sheet gives you a bit of room on the sides, but they just fill that with feed. 










Heres a slightly smaller piece just getting drawn










Go to this thread for more photos and info about these partial sheet frames

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...sheet-of-foundation-in-deep-frames-experiment


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm not convinced the conclusions stated in the OP are warranted...though I don't doubt the observations that would support such a conclusion, I don't think they have eliminated other possibilities.

Before Kerr brought the scutts to brazil, the USDA was experimenting with all kinds of (non AHB) hybrids on Kelly island.

The reports out of there document that the complex hybrids were so aggressive 2 bee suits were worn...and still they were unworkable and disposed of.

Aggressiveness and defensiveness are likely closer to the "mean" (haha) than gentilness, and when crossing tends to get "cross" (sorry). ...just like if you breed a dachshund with a poodle with a German Shepard with a beagle......mix them up for a few generations and you inevitably get something that looks like an urban street dog.

I've also written about the "tower of babble" effect that might be at play....different races (and perhaps different populations?) Have different "dialects of dance language...perhaps the more the mixing the more frustrating and less accurate is communication within the hive.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

That is why we call them local 'mutt' queen bees. That was why the scientist in S. Am. tried to breed the
super bees. He forgot that the dominant genes is the aggressive type though they had repopulated handsomely. But before
he could eliminate the aggressive genes by back crossing, his young naive assistant had accidentally released 6 queens into the local environment. 
So if you don't pay attention to the gentleness but only look at the honey production then the end result is what we have seen today. Without looking at the scientist's notes it would take many generation of back crossing to fix the aggressiveness of the AHB. Maybe KC can isolate the desirable traits while fixing the undesirable ones.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

If you look at the time line of the release, it is simply not believable that it was an accidental release....more to the point, the goal was to save the beekeeping industry in brazil...and it worked.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

The accidental release was not planned and the scientist was following his protocol of queen excluders blocking in queens and preventing any escape. The hired help were indifferent to the security situation and just thought that the excluders were not good beekeeping---and they are not. Those folks are long dead and it doesn't matter much anymore. Some folks have made strides in taming the AHB. But there are just a lot of them now and it will get rougher. I think we up north should all get better at queen rearing. THe AHB does not winter well so we should be able to keep manageable bees anyway.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Vance G said:


> I think we up north should all get better at queen rearing. THe AHB does not winter well so we should be able to keep manageable bees anyway.


You are right. I'm simply trying to make a point that playing with genetic manipulation has its consequences if
not monitor diligently. Imagine beekeepers dealing with them while handling 100s of hives. It is hard to keep the AB out
of their apiary. In time with inter-breeding with the EHB they will learn to survive in the cold winter and migrating up north hiding in
cave cavities and such. All bees including AHB can survive the cold in a sheltered location with enough winter stores.
Because of their aggressiveness to take over and swarm it is a matter of time. Though I can see why some use their genetic for production
purposes either for the honey or pollination.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

deknow said:


> If you look at the time line of the release, it is simply not believable that it was an accidental release....more to the point, the goal was to save the beekeeping industry in brazil...and it worked.


It is implicit in your words that there was one intentional plan of liberation of African queens to save the Brazilian beekeeping. Brasilian experts and brasilian beekeepers don't say what you say. They say that africanized bee practically ruined the Brazilian Beekeeping in the first two or three decades after the event that is historically recorded in some hives from Dr. Kerr . What seems to have saved the Brazilian beekeeping after the desert crossing was the work and the effort of many people in Brazil , from researchers, beekeepers to trade associations.
Below is a small excerpt translated on this subject .

_Due to accidental removal by a beekeeper of excluidoras screens in front of the hives queens , there was the release of African bees that were quarantined in a eucalyptus culture in the Garden of Camacuan , the Municipality of Rio Claro- SP . Thus began the crossing of bees with European honey bees ( Apis mellifera mellifera , Apis mellifera ligustica , Apis mellifera carnica ) that had already been introduced in Brazil , thus beginning the " *Africanization period*" . This second stage was characterized mainly by the number of accidents due to high aggressiveness of African bees. The total lack of knowledge of the biology and behavior of African bees and the lack of appropriate methods of management of these bees were the main causes of most accidents caused . These facts caused an extremely negative impact on the population , appearing then the term " killer bee " or " Killer Bee " created by the media, causing serious damage to beekeeping. *At this stage many beekeepers abandoned their beekeeping activities and the lack of knowledge of the management of this bee caused a real " chaos in the Brazilian beekeeping ." *During this period the Brazilian dependence on imported beekeeping equipment was absolute , since the import boxes to centrifugal and other bee implements. The association was almost nonexistent , and the period culminated with the creation of the CBA - Brazilian Confederation of Beekeeping that in 1970 , held the 1st . Brazilian Congress of Beekeeping in Florianópolis, SC , in order to discuss the problems of national beekeeping and in particular how to control this new bee previously unknown by Brazilian beekeepers. Thus, from 1970 initiated the third stage in the history of Brazilian apiculture we classify as the " recovery period and expansion of the Brazilian beekeeping ."_ in http://www.sbpcnet.org.br/livro/57ra/programas/CONF_SIMP/textos/davidjong.htm


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

If one looks at a detailed timeline of events, one will see that the queen excluders that were 'accidently removed' by the assistant, releasing the queens...they were there to keep the queens AND THE DRONES in the colonies....the 'official' version is that the drones were not going to be allowed to escape...the timeline shows that the hives were not checked often enough to prevent drones from emerging. What did Kerr (or anyone else) think was going to happen when they inspected the hives (being careful not to let the queen fly)?

There is plenty of documentation on this, on the fact that the importation was done to help the Brazilian industry, that the UDSA imported and distributeed his genetics to breeders in this country long before the bees marched this far north. Some of it is here on beesource, probably the best, most detailed account is from an issue of Bee World in 1967 or 1973...i have a copy of the article and will try to post it later today (it is on another computer).

Also remember that there was a major political campaign against kerr (by the Brazilian govt) for reasons having nothing to do with bees...and like any crisis, both the US and Brazilian governments and media were happy to make a stink....do you think all the research on AHB would be/have been funded to the extent it was if there was not some level of 'panic' among the public?

A few worth reading through:
http://apisenterprises.com/papers_htm/Misc/AHB in the Americas.htm

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...lian-scientists-comments-on-committee-report/


> The classification of Brazilian bee as undesirable is a subjective
> classification. It may be confirmed from the committee’s report (Table 2) that 70% of the beekeepers prefer this bee and 87% did not have empty hives to sell.


...that's from 1972.

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/africanized-honey-bees/the-african-brazilian-bee-problem/

....i'll post the beeworld artilcle when i get the chance.




Eduardo Gomes said:


> It is implicit in your words that there was one intentional plan of liberation of African queens to save the Brazilian beekeeping. Brasilian experts and brasilian beekeepers don't say what you say. They say that africanized bee practically ruined the Brazilian Beekeeping in the first two or three decades after the event that is historically recorded in some hives from Dr. Kerr . What seems to have saved the Brazilian beekeeping after the desert crossing was the work and the effort of many people in Brazil , from researchers, beekeepers to trade associations.
> Below is a small excerpt translated on this subject .
> 
> _Due to accidental removal by a beekeeper of excluidoras screens in front of the hives queens , there was the release of African bees that were quarantined in a eucalyptus culture in the Garden of Camacuan , the Municipality of Rio Claro- SP . Thus began the crossing of bees with European honey bees ( Apis mellifera mellifera , Apis mellifera ligustica , Apis mellifera carnica ) that had already been introduced in Brazil , thus beginning the " *Africanization period*" . This second stage was characterized mainly by the number of accidents due to high aggressiveness of African bees. The total lack of knowledge of the biology and behavior of African bees and the lack of appropriate methods of management of these bees were the main causes of most accidents caused . These facts caused an extremely negative impact on the population , appearing then the term " killer bee " or " Killer Bee " created by the media, causing serious damage to beekeeping. *At this stage many beekeepers abandoned their beekeeping activities and the lack of knowledge of the management of this bee caused a real " chaos in the Brazilian beekeeping ." *During this period the Brazilian dependence on imported beekeeping equipment was absolute , since the import boxes to centrifugal and other bee implements. The association was almost nonexistent , and the period culminated with the creation of the CBA - Brazilian Confederation of Beekeeping that in 1970 , held the 1st . Brazilian Congress of Beekeeping in Florianópolis, SC , in order to discuss the problems of national beekeeping and in particular how to control this new bee previously unknown by Brazilian beekeepers. Thus, from 1970 initiated the third stage in the history of Brazilian apiculture we classify as the " recovery period and expansion of the Brazilian beekeeping ."_ in http://www.sbpcnet.org.br/livro/57ra/programas/CONF_SIMP/textos/davidjong.htm


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

deknow I think there was a misunderstanding over of our conversation.

a) a majority of Brazilian beekeepers currently love their bee. Brazil is becoming a world power in the production of honey. I think at this point they are among the 10 largest producer of honey in the world.
b) there are the brazilians who say in the two decades following the "africanization" of its bee ( the 60 and 70 ) they went through trouble.
c) points a) and b) coexist perfectly with the research data presented in the OP paper. Are independent aspects in my opinion.


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