# DIY Frames



## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

Well I just made up the parts for 300+ frames. I know the general wisdom is that it is not worth it to make them but it seems to have gone quite well. I made deeps and basically just copied on of the frames that I had previously purchased, The only real difference is that I have a slightly narrower Top Bar in my design. They took a bit longer than i thought but this being my first time I know I could shave some time next time. My biggest complaint is that wood from Home Depot generally is junk so next time i'll make sure to get better stock. That caused more waste and some frustration.

The wood cost me $80 which I turned into approximately 650 ends, 300 top bars, and 550 bottom bars. So at 300 frames that works out to 27 cents each. I spent about 8 hours in my shop making the parts. Since i have the time and a well supplied woodshop I feel that it has been a profitable endeavor. 

My question is this. Since my top bars are narrower than standard will this cause me problems that I'm not thinking about. ( the ends are standard 1 3/8 so spacing is the same) It seems that the only real difference would be in uncapping the frame that the knife would cut a bit more wax off the cells by 1/8th. I guess that also the frame could be slightly weaker but i'm not sure that is really an issue.

Here are some pictures. You can see one purchased frame in one pic. and the rest all mine. 

Thanks for the input.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Wow, not bad for an eight hour day. If you have the time and like doing that, knock yourself out!!!


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## Robbo (May 11, 2008)

Well done - slap a few more piccys up mate - they look great!!


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## markspillman (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm new to this, but the frames I have the foundation slides down the top bar and into the bottom. How do you keep the foundation in these frames? Looks great and I would love to make mine but seems like to much trouble for the groves.


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks for the encouragement guys I appreciate it. 

Just to clarify so I don't confuse anyone, I made the parts for 300+ in 8 hours but I have only assembled about 50 since then. However I figure that assembly time doesn't really count in my calculations since I could have to assemble the frames I would purchase as well. 

I will say that I am only able to make them that quickly because I have some pretty significant wood shop equipment that allows me to work as fast as possible. Tablesaw, Jointer, Thickness Planer, big Bandsaw, and Drill press. Also for the supply houses to charge 70-80cents a frame is a decent price considering everything involved. I found that sourcing the wood at a cost that will provide me enough savings on my frames can be a challenge. I ended up having to make them out of 2x6's and 2x12's which ended up causing a bit more work. If the wood had been nice and clean without some knots my wast would have been almost negligible except for the loads and loads of sawdust.

I wish I had taken pictures of the different steps but I'll have to wait till next time I guess.


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

Are you saying that you have a split top bar? I made a grooved top and bottom bar and then wired the frames and melt the wax onto the wire.



markspillman said:


> I'm new to this, but the frames I have the foundation slides down the top bar and into the bottom. How do you keep the foundation in these frames? Looks great and I would love to make mine but seems like to much trouble for the groves.


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## markspillman (Jun 7, 2011)

yes, i assume you put the was in while you are putting the frames together.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

> My question is this. Since my top bars are narrower than standard will this cause me problems that I'm not thinking about. ( the ends are standard 1 3/8 so spacing is the same) It seems that the only real difference would be in uncapping the frame that the knife would cut a bit more wax off the cells by 1/8th. I guess that also the frame could be slightly weaker but i'm not sure that is really an issue.


The wider top bar prevents the bees from drawing the comb off of the bottom bar and across the top of the frame below. Yours don't look too narrow to me, but you may experience them connecting frames together. Nice work by the way.


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks Bluegrass. That is the type of information I was looking for. My top bars are 1/4 narrower so just 1/8th on each side. I will keep an eye on how they do with drawing bad comb. The wider top bars would require 4 more cuts with the dado which accounts to quite a bit of time. so that is why i went with a narrower design.



bluegrass said:


> The wider top bar prevents the bees from drawing the comb off of the bottom bar and across the top of the frame below. Yours don't look too narrow to me, but you may experience them connecting frames together. Nice work by the way.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Summit25 said:


> So at 300 frames that works out to 27 cents each. I spent about 8 hours in my shop making the parts.


I'll take a thousand at that price, when can you ship?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

When you put them in use; push them all tight together and use a dummy board on the end of the frame rest if you have a gap. It will maintain the bee space between the frames so they don't have room to draw anything but burr comb.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I can't imagine you'd have any trouble at all. They look fine and I admire your fortitude to even attempt such a feat.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks for the encouragement and feedback everybody. I will be keeping an eye on them but right now i am very happy. The bees are pulling out the foundation REALLY quick right now so I am pretty excited. Also I found a local place that I can get my lumber a lot cheaper yet so next time they should cost me even less per frame. Wahoo.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Seeing the wide bottom bar makes me wonder if you won't have more problems w/ them getting glued to the top bars of the box below them. Plus, a narrow bottom bar allows the hot knife access to the comb better for uncapping. So, I would rather that you had made your top bars and bottom bars the standard width, because there are reasons they are that width. Tho, it may not matter all that much.

Looks like good work.


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## K.E.N. (May 5, 2011)

I'm also a woodworker. It saves alot of time not having to set up for making the dado cuts on the top bars. I also save time by not grooving the the bottom as I don't use foundation. I just put a small strip of wax in the top groove and the bees are very happy. They'll draw comb faster also.. I've actually been making them this way myself. I haven't had any problems with them at all. I use the crush and strain method so the knife is not an issue. Getting wood cheap is a problem for most people. When I'm lucky enough to be working around new construction (very rare these days) I raid the dumpsters for lumber. Keep it up! You'll find you'll have good luck with them.


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

Hi K.E.N

Do you have a picture of your frames that you could post? thanks.
Devon



K.E.N. said:


> I'm also a woodworker. It saves alot of time not having to set up for making the dado cuts on the top bars. I also save time by not grooving the the bottom as I don't use foundation. I just put a small strip of wax in the top groove and the bees are very happy. They'll draw comb faster also.. I've actually been making them this way myself. I haven't had any problems with them at all. I use the crush and strain method so the knife is not an issue. Getting wood cheap is a problem for most people. When I'm lucky enough to be working around new construction (very rare these days) I raid the dumpsters for lumber. Keep it up! You'll find you'll have good luck with them.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If you put two of your frames next to each other, is there a "bee space"(about 5/16 inch) between the top bars?

Crazy Roland


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

He stated that his end bars are standard size, but he shaved his top bars down by a 1/4, by my calculations he has about 1/2" space between bars which is why he needs them as close together as possible. The bees will probably extend the comb out to a proper bee space as long as he keeps his frames tight together.


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

Roland said:


> If you put two of your frames next to each other, is there a "bee space"(about 5/16 inch) between the top bars?
> 
> Crazy Roland


If I push them tight together the bee space is 1/2 inch between the top bars. The end bars are the standard width so bee space between the foundation/comb is unchanged.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yer gonna get some propolis between the top bars, I bet. And bees won't easily move above the top bars into a new super. I predict. Let us know if that is or is not so.

3/8 inch is bee space. Anything wider gets comb built in it. Anything less gets propolis put in it. This is a Bee Law. Laws aren't always followed and I can't tell which bees are Police Bees. Maybe they are the ones w/ the flashing lights that precede the Undertakers.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Shaving the end bars down to 1.25 inch would fix the bee space issue.


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Shaving the end bars down to 1.25 inch would fix the bee space issue.


It would only change the bee space on the top bars the comb would be to tight then.


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here I just figured that a slightly narrower top bar wound't make much difference to the bees and it is much simpler to build. We'll see how they go -- I have enough in hives now that by the end of summer I should be able to see how they are working out. However for the future I may think about how I can make the top bar standard width without a significant increase in production time.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Summit25 said:


> It would only change the bee space on the top bars the comb would be to tight then.


Some people intentionally shave them down to 1.25 in order to fit 11 frames in a 10 frame box. It works.


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Some people intentionally shave them down to 1.25 in order to fit 11 frames in a 10 frame box. It works.


I didn't know that. I may try it.


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## redcrane (Mar 14, 2010)

Just today I bought an extractor just like the one in your second picture. With a little cam coat it will make a serviceable if labor intense tool. If yours has legs I would really like to see them. I've a couple of ideas but a pic. would be a great help.


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

No legs on my extractor either, the barrel part just sets on the ground. Legs would be a good idea though 



redcrane said:


> Just today I bought an extractor just like the one in your second picture. With a little cam coat it will make a serviceable if labor intense tool. If yours has legs I would really like to see them. I've a couple of ideas but a pic. would be a great help.


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## redcrane (Mar 14, 2010)

Thanx for the info. If I get legs on mine I'll send you a pic.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Hey summit I make all my own frames too and I actually had a few questions and a found a few solutions to some of your problems. #2 pine works great for top bars and bottom bars but doesnt work so well with the side... 'bars'. #3 pine works better for the side bars as its wetter and my dados tend to not splinter the wood as they come out the other side (even if i cut a bit and then turn the bar around.) I do, however, have to do 2 - 3/8" deep cuts on the side bars with the dados to achieve the needed 3/4" depth required to fit the top bars. The problem i have is a 3/4" cut in the end grain tends to make the side bars want to twist as I run them through the blades. My question is this, is there an easier way to make the dados in the end grain in 1 pass on a table saw without the splintering problems i have had.

I made 300 deep frames for 1 deep brood box and 1 deep super for 15 hives. I just cut the pieces for 300+ medium frames for 2 medium supers for said hives and im dreading making dados in the pine stock i have as the wood is 70 years old and is as dry as dry can be. I'll be finished machining the top bars soon and then im moving on to the side bars. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I suppose i should add that i only put a kerf in the top bar so i can glue a guide in since all i use are foundationless frames.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I had to take a pic and put it in here  Anyway that's a painted medium super and the top bars (partially machined) with a side bar (unmachined) as a reference in front of the super a few other side bars on top.










Well i cant get the image to post so here's a link

http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums...ion=view&current=MedHiveBodyTopBarSideBar.jpg


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

Do you have a picture of your frames i would like to see them. My dados on the end bars are only 3/8 deep, so one pass is fine. I also made all the end bars out of 2x12s so I would only have splintering on one end bar out of close to twenty end bars.




rwurster said:


> Hey summit I make all my own frames too and I actually had a few questions and a found a few solutions to some of your problems. #2 pine works great for top bars and bottom bars but doesnt work so well with the side... 'bars'. #3 pine works better for the side bars as its wetter and my dados tend to not splinter the wood as they come out the other side (even if i cut a bit and then turn the bar around.) I do, however, have to do 2 - 3/8" deep cuts on the side bars with the dados to achieve the needed 3/4" depth required to fit the top bars. The problem i have is a 3/4" cut in the end grain tends to make the side bars want to twist as I run them through the blades. My question is this, is there an easier way to make the dados in the end grain in 1 pass on a table saw without the splintering problems i have had.
> 
> I made 300 deep frames for 1 deep brood box and 1 deep super for 15 hives. I just cut the pieces for 300+ medium frames for 2 medium supers for said hives and im dreading making dados in the pine stock i have as the wood is 70 years old and is as dry as dry can be. I'll be finished machining the top bars soon and then im moving on to the side bars. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
> 
> I suppose i should add that i only put a kerf in the top bar so i can glue a guide in since all i use are foundationless frames.


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

I will try to explain a bit more how i make my end bars. Sorry i don't have pictures to go along for each step but i will try to make it clear. i used 2x12 but other 2x stock would also work. 1) The first thing I do is run it through the thickness planner a couple of times to take it down to 1 3/8. 2) Cut it to length, I run deeps so 9 1/8. 3) on each end/the end grain i now cut 3/8 deep dados the width of my top and bottom bars. 4) I go to my jointer and make a pass on each side of the lower portion of my stock 1/8 deep by about 5 wide. I now have a perfectly shaped "side bar" that is 11.5 wide. All that is left to do is go over to the table saw and hack it up into a whole bunch of little end bars. at 3/8 thick and a 1/8 saw cut i get close to twenty finished pieces out of piece of 2x12 figuring in some waste. This works out really well because i don't have to machine a whole bunch of little pieces. I do the machining on twenty pieces at a time and then just cut off a bunch of finished parts. 

The only way to make frames economical is to figure out how to cut labor time way down


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Ahhh very nice system. I don't have a planer and that's the key to the time savings. I have used 2x as stock before and they work very well but without a planer i always had to cut to dimension first which means every end bar must be dadoed separately. i do like the idea of 3/8" deep dados on the end bars with a 3/8" dado across the grain on the top and bottom bars. I also don't have a jointer so after dados are cut into the end bars i run them up the saw blade on both sides cutting 3/16" off both sides thus giving an adequate bee space between frames. Ill do a 30 frame run and take pics of the pieces. Two machines are all that stand between days and days of extra labor, ive made jigs to try to run multiple pieces through the dados but the jigs make things cumbersome and in my opinion a bit dangerous thus I dont use them. Very excellent system though, I have to give it a thumbs up


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

They are actually called, "end bars" rather than "side bars". It helps some, if we all speak the same language. "Side bar" is actually a legal term.

With a space of 1/2" between your top bars, I'm afraid you're going to find that violations of bee space aren't to be taken lightly, the bees are going to lock all of your frames together at the top with brace/burr comb. As has already been mentioned you can eliminate this problem with your current design, by reducing your end bar width by cutting 1/8" off of each edge, making them 1-1/4" wide frames -vs- 1-3/8" wide. In many of my own frame designs I have also chosen to use narrower top bars, however, I also trim my end bars to 1-1/4" wide in order to maintain bee space, if you don't, I almost guarantee, you will wish you had.

Bee space is 1/4 - 3/8", as has already been said, narrower gets propolis, wider gets brace/burr comb.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

I follow what is being said about bee space, but If this is so absolute why do we not see the frames getting locked together at the bottom? With bottom bars at 3/4" certainly the space betwean them far exceeds 3/8"?
I had assumed (and so far it has been true in my hives) that bees will draw out the comb untill the space betwean the two is equal to bee space. The place where it seems really critical is in areas that are not betwean combs...like side bars to hive body, or top bars to hive lid?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

windfall said:


> I follow what is being said about bee space, but If this is so absolute why do we not see the frames getting locked together at the bottom? With bottom bars at 3/4" certainly the space betwean them far exceeds 3/8"?
> I had assumed (and so far it has been true in my hives) that bees will draw out the comb untill the space betwean the two is equal to bee space. The place where it seems really critical is in areas that are not betwean combs...like side bars to hive body, or top bars to hive lid?


Yes, and top bar to top bar.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Because, generally bees do not attach/anchor their combs at the bottoms, rather they more commonly attach them at their tops, since the combs work better to support the weight of their future contents by being securely fastened at their top edges, fastening their bottom edges would just hinder the bees access, and not really improve their functionality.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

sure I can see that.... makes sense.


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

I appreciate all the feedback from everyone. I was looking at the frames this evening and I have decided that on the next run instead of shaving the end bars to 1 1/4 I think i'll just make the top bars 1/8th wider, there is no reason I couldn't have done that in the first place and then my bee space up top will be 3/8 so that should fix any possible problems. I have about 200+ of these frames already drawn out and haven't noticed any problems with the bees drawing comb between the top bars and making a mess, however since it will be just as simple to make the frames with the wider top bar i might as well. 

next time i'll try to take pics of each stage and post them up.

Cheers
Summit25


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I ran a quick batch of 30 out and assembled ten, to my chagrin i forgot to run a kerf down the center of the top bars to put a guide in but that is easily fixable. I didnt clean any of the parts up before I snapped these pics but you can see the bee space is preserved between frames and top bars. I actually go with a 1 1/8" top bar which leaves a little more than 1/4" between bars. i've never had a problem with it and better yet my bees dont propolize anything together. These are medium frames for medium langstroth supers.

http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h356/DestructionManZ/?action=view&current=DSC00141.jpg A quick pic of the parts, Ive never made top bars like this with a dado across the grain but it was a novel idea i had to entertain. I put a 25# weight on a single top bar and it didnt even creak so i it will hold 0 - 10 pounds of honey easily.

http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h356/DestructionManZ/?action=view&current=DSC00143.jpg Assembled foundationless frames in hive and on top, i forgot the guide on the bottom side of the top bar but its not a big problem. Its not the best pic but i was tired and really just wanted to get these pics posted.

I can understand the 7/8" top bars so they would fit nicely in the 7/8" dado in the side bars but honestly bee space is important. Something bumped a few of my hives and a few frames in the mostly empty super above one of the brood boxes shifted and i had a burr comb nightmare when i found it. Even though i scraped the burr comb off the sides of the top bars, the bees must sense that comb was built there before so now they continuously keep building burr comb in the exact same spot between the 2 frames even though they are now pushed back together. Such is life


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