# ?s before buying equip.



## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

I made all of my woodenware, so I can't comment on the material choice. I used regular pine whiteboard for msot and cedar for a couple of boxes just the see how they hold up. On the two set-ups i plan o use for my nucs, i painted them white. My swarp traps i have coated in a clear spar urethane. a lot of folks seem to think that the clear will not be as durable, and they make good arguments to that effect. I do find the clear finish more easthetically pleasing and at my small scale, i don;t mind the extra work refinishing if required.

I elected to go plastic foundation for durability, , but I am also going to mix in some foudnationless frames and see how well they do. My hunch is that I will eventually be all foundationless on my honey supers, but time will tell on that. I like the idea of foundationless so I COULD do cut comb honey as a novelty gift for family and friends, but I'll likely be extracting nearly all of my honey. Foundationless gives me the option of doing either without any planning involved. I will be reinforcing the foundaionless frames with monofilament fishing line. I have no aversion to using the stainless steel wire, but i have miles, literally miles, of monofilament that i will never use as I've converted nearly all of my fishing gear to super lines.


I have no input on the slatted rack, but i look forward to seeing responses about it.

FWIW, I made all of my boxes and frames using nothing more than a table saw and a skill saw for making the hand holds. My hand-me-down router table is so beat up that it is essentially worthless, so i made all of my rabbet joints using the table saw and the ripping fence. I cobbled a jig and made one body with box joints, but it was much more labor intensive, and I don't think it will be necessary to have the additional strength. As a small time hobbyist, i will not be moving my hives around much, so they should be plenty solid enough with glue and 1/4 crown staples holding them together.

take all of this with a grain of salt...i don't have any bees yet, so my input is based strictly on word of mouth recommendations, reading, and videos.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

Try some of both plastic and hooked wire wax. I would recommend black plastic for a new person. The bee's will draw out the wax faster but they work plastic with a good wax coating fast enough. For frames buy all wedge top bar as they will work on both hooked wire and plastic. As for hive body finish stain if you want. The bee's wont care. I have played around with slatted racks and have not seen much if any difference. I have a stack in the barn that I would love to sell


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## Ttankofish1 (Feb 15, 2013)

I thought about building the boxes but the savings do not seem to be significant . Don't know if it's worth the time for me .


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## ribbit (May 3, 2011)

Make sure you end up doing some sort of protection for the cypress. I left mine bare, and several boxes are in very bad shape (and one ruined) after just one year.


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

making gear certainly isn't for everyone. I looked at the cost of buying 4 deeps, 4 mediums, the 80 frames, and the covers and it was a bit over $300. I bought all of the lumber, paneling and sheetmetal for under $100 and probably have 30 hours or so into making them. I had the paint, glue, staples, brads...etc on hand already. I really enjoy working on projects though, so for me the time investment is free. If i don't have proejcts to work on, I get anxious and start inventing projects that NEED to be done. This filled that void for me.


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## Ttankofish1 (Feb 15, 2013)

I will defiantly put something on them. I would like stain , I was just worried about the smell bothering the bees. I know it's only on the outside but it's a stronger smell than pain and does not dissipate as fast


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## Major (Dec 31, 2012)

I run all my colonies except my nucs on slatted racks. I originally made them with solid bottoms but I now put a screen bottom in them. I experimented with them for about a year or so b4 I switched all mine over. The things I like about a slatted rack are the bees will draw comb all the way down to the bottom of the frames which they won't do a lot of times with a screened bottom, I have also noticed that my bees don't beard in the summer like they did in the past. They are time consuming to make unless you can make a lot at one time. I cut out 50 at one time and sold a few. There are a few places that sell them I think brushy mntn is one but you still have to have a bottom board under them which makes them very expensive, mine have the rack, bottom board and 4 12 inch (2x4) legs so they don't have to be put on blocks or anything else because they are also my hive stand.
Major


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

I have built 100s of deeps and mediums. At the price of 1X material I only do it if I get free wood. I do build all my migratory tops, all season vent tops, feeders and pallets. I use 4 ways. Frames are cheap and I dont like to get my fingers that close to a saw to save 70cents.


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## Ttankofish1 (Feb 15, 2013)

I am a good woodworker with no bee experience. I worry about bee space and dimensions. Maybe buy one and use it for presice measurements .


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

I thought I'd do the same thing, but we're dealing with bees here. They live in dead trees, walls of houses...etc. I figure close enough is close enough. My frames aren't 100% square, but I think they'll be fine, but i have no idea so far without any bees to let me know what they think. The interior dimensions are important if you want to use standard size frames for easy compatability with other folks down the road. The ideal spacing for parts is 3/8," or so i have read. This seems to be the consensus.

I did a lot of my stuff similar to this guy's videos. He uses routers a fair bit, but you can do this with a table saw as well. He does a good job of stating dimensions. the end result is the same as otehr standard plans i have seen.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Carpfish29/videos


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Bee space is between 1/4" and 3/8", anything smaller they will fill with propolis and anything bigger with wax. I run two slatted racks and like them, the queen lays in more of the lower box and there is less bearding in the summer.


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## Ttankofish1 (Feb 15, 2013)

Thanks for the replies , I'm watching the video from above now and I may reconsider. I also think I will try the slatted rack. Wish I would get some more feedback about foundation though.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you are thinking of building hive equipment, and need dimensions, there are plans for just about everything here:

http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

somethign else you may consider is the book "building beehives for dummies." It too has specs for all of the hive components as well as CAD drawings of them. i purchased a copy, but i already have all of my hive stuff made. I figured it might be ncie if I decide to build a Warre, or a kenyan tob bar hive. Ultimately, i doubt it will see much use, but if you're looking for plans, it has them...of course google ahs them all too


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

It is very subjective. I run only crimped wire wax or foundationless with the exception of 20 frames of Honey Super Cell for regression. I do not nor have I ever liked plastic and I have had cross wired wax last for years with no problems!! The plastic stuff is much easier especially if you use the foundation/frame all-in-one stuff, no cross wiring or installing foundation but those are things I don't mind doing.


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

I have slatted racks on all my hives and nucs, my bees still beard but I live in the south it does get hot.

This is what a Cypress hive looks like when it is stained and then finished with polly.


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## Ttankofish1 (Feb 15, 2013)

That looks awsome, and now I'm considering building them out of pine. Gotta think about this


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Hmm, have you decided on going with 8-frame or 10-frame equipment? ...mixture of deeps and mediums??? Just thought I'd open that can of worms up for you. 

NasalSponge mentioned the specs for beespace. There is really no "close enough" in regards to it. You are within in the range of beespace or you are out of the range...if you are out of the range then the bees will adjust things "accordingly". Beespace was Langstroth's discovery that revolutionized beekeeping and has been used since the mid-1850's. It has been a constant in Langstroth hive systems ever since...and is about what Langstroth is remembered mostly. Beespace is found in natural hives (trees, walls, any comb structure) and is used in artificial hive systems besides in Langstroths. Leaving a frame crooked in a super creating a space larger than beespace and the next time you check the hive you will see how efficiently the bees fill that space with bridge comb, double comb, etc.,. You can see the example of too small of a space each time you start prying up frames that are glued down (nothing really a lot you can do about the frames, though, but it makes a good example for too small of a space  ). I've found that *sometimes* you can get by with gambling on beespace but most of the time the ladies will call your hand on it.

You could buy the equipment for a hive and copy that but be aware that even commercially cut equipment may have a bit of error in it's dimensions...I've noted that in my first two years of beekeeping. Since you appear to be a skilled woodworker I would get the precise, standard dimensions of Langstroth hive equipment and go with that...paying careful attention to beespace. Each box and it's frames work in conjunction with the box and frames below or above it to insure that beespace is respected.

Building boxes...the Achilles heel is at the corner joints where end grain is exposed. Water will soak into this quickly. Rabbet, box, and butt joints are the three most regularly used joints. Some people use screws, some people use nails, some people use staples. Rabbet joints leave the least end grain exposed. All three joints are widely used, though, with folks swearing by each one. The trick is to do a very good job of sealing the grain. I paint my rabbet jointed cypress boxes with exterior latex. When putting them together I will apply a very liberal amount of TITEBOND III (there are 3 versions of Titebond) to the joint before nailing them together. The excess glue that squeezes out of the joint is "painted" onto the end grain of the wood with my finger...this really helps sealing the wood. I later paint the boxes with the exterior latex. You probably wouldn't want to do this with a clear finish, though, as the glue would show. Where are you going to put your hives?....will they be a showpiece for you garden or will they be outback and out of sight? I like utilitarian over looks...but that is me and my hives are out back a bit, too.

When you paint or stain your boxes position them upside down so that all that exposed grain of the handholds will be turned up and you can get lots of paint/stain into them.

Frames...if you decided to go with plastic frames then naturally you would buy them...I don't use them down here in the south because I think there is many places for small hive beetles to hide in them. Beetles aren't as bet up where you're at. If you go with wooden frames *I* would buy them, too...tedious work it looks like to build them from scratch. You can buy medium frames for down around 75-cents each in 100-lots (maybe less?). I use wedge top bar frames...I can put foundation in them or turn the wedge sideways and glue/nail it in for foundationless frames.

Foundation...I use mostly unwired small cell Kelleys foundation. I started out with unwired foundation because I figured I might want to cut queen cells out for nucs or something and it's easier to cut out of unwired foundation...at least that's the only reason I can think of right now...it was probably just a newbee move. I've also tried a little foundationless but I haven't jumped all the way into that, yet. My mentor uses regular cell wired with no-ears (with wedge top frames). The reason he gives for using the "no-ears" is that sometimes the ears are bent exactly at the right angle and will cause the foundation to bow out on one side at the top of the frame rather than hanging down straight. We both wire our frames horizontally to support the comb...two wires in a medium frame. With wax foundation an electric embedder works good...I use an old trickle charger for batteries...attach each lead to the end of the frame wire, the frame wire heats up melting the wax and embedding the wire into it...a little practice and you're good to go. There are also embedding wheels that are used for "cold" embedding...I haven't had any experience with those.

Oh well, that was just some newbee thoughts...maybe something in there helped. 

Best wishes!!!!!
Ed


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Ttankofish1 said:


> I worry about bee space and dimensions.


You can get complete plans and dimensions for virtually all hive woodenware at the _Build It Yourself_ section of Beesource:
http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/


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## Ttankofish1 (Feb 15, 2013)

Leaning toward building using ideas and measurements from this site. Going to use pine for cost saving and will paint a light natural color. Will definitely buy wood frames and still not sure about what foundation.i am very aware about bee space that's the only hesitation I originally had about building my hives. I am going with two deeps on a screened bottom and will add medium supers to that.i would like all mediums but I already ordered nucs that are in deeps and don't want to complicate things more.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I build my own boxes when the wood is free, otherwise it is more cost effective to buy the pre-cut boxes from the suppliers...and I enjoy wood working, don't get me wrong. I prefer Copper Napthalene, but it only sold in large sizes for dipping (and it stinks).

I can't build a frame to equal the bought frames. I use both plastic foundation (with my own added wax) and wired wax foundation, then I also slip in a few foundationless frames to save a buck on foundation. 

There are many ways....

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## bobbarker (May 23, 2012)

Hey Ttank, welcome to the site.

I started last year, and used the plans on this site to make a few hives, and it went really well. The plans are pretty fantastic, and I had no problems. I'm a moderately skilled woodworker (I don't want to say I'm great, but I'm not a rookie either), so if you're familiar in a shop, you should have no trouble building the equipment. 

As far as treating your hives, consider Thompson's Water Seal. It works great, and it would be a minimalist treatment. 

I buy my frames, and use wax coated plastic, and the bees did fine on it last year. That's just my .02.


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## Ttankofish1 (Feb 15, 2013)

Bbarker, thanks that is a confidence booster. I will use the measurements from the plans but may modify a bit to use finger joints. I have not made them before but think I can with a router table . Going to do a practice joint and see how it goes.


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## Ttankofish1 (Feb 15, 2013)

Actually the plans are for finger joints I was thinking of other plans I looked at.


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## bobbarker (May 23, 2012)

I used all box joints last year, and decided that it was just too time consuming. I've got a lot more boxes to build this year than last, so I'm going to try a Kreg jig and pocket screws/glue. I've really fallen in love with the Kreg jig the last few years, and it'll be a heck of a lot faster than box or finger jointing. I'm confident that it will hold up just as well, but I guess I'll know for sure in a few years.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Ttankofish1 said:


> I thought about building the boxes but the savings do not seem to be significant . Don't know if it's worth the time for me .


Check out the cost of commercial boxes from Miller's. For me they end up being cheaper than getting free shipping from Mann Lake... 

http://millerbeesupply.com


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## Ttankofish1 (Feb 15, 2013)

Yes those are the plans from this site I refer to.


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## Ttankofish1 (Feb 15, 2013)

My last post I was accidentally looking at last post on page one when I wrote that. As for miller I worry about quality when things are so cheap. The kreg jig is awsome and I thought about using it. I can build boxes... As cheap or cheaper than anything you can buy and I know how they are built then. Still leaning toward finger joints , I did a test run and went pretty good. Also like a dado joint. I think the kreg will hold up as I do even but joints with screws. Screws with glue is very strong and I don't think there is to much joint stress . Most of the weight is verticals on the frame rest. That's coming from me who's more familiar with wood than beekeeping though.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

free shipping from Mann Lake on orders over 100.00 A few boxes, frames, foundation and a couple of hive tools and your there. A friend and I bought two skids of 50 med from them this winter. He got the commercials and I got the economies. I was very happy with the fit, quaility and the PRICE. I also bought 700 frames and with 700 sheets of plastic. I have bought foundation from all the large companies in the past. This was the first time I didn't need to add extra wax. They have a heavy coat sprayed on


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## Ttankofish1 (Feb 15, 2013)

Hope that worked, this is what I have so far. Home made four deeps and four medium supers ( not in photo). Went well once I figured out how to make the jig for the joints.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

Nice work! what are you going to do for handholds


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Can't figure out what frames and more importantly foundation to go with.

I like foundationless... Matching the right foundation to the right frame is important. Many use plastic. Many use wax. Many use foundationless. The all work to some degree or another. 
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesoptions.htm

Cell size is an issue for Varroa from my experience:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

>one book I read recommended a slatted rack, anyone use or experiment with and see a difference.

I wouldn't sweat it at this point. You can get one anytime and try it. I used to have enough for all my hives. When I converted to eight frame boxes, I sold all of those ten frame slatted racks and have never made or bought them for the eight frame. I was also expanding, and I couldn't see making 200 of them...

> Last ( for now ) I think I'm going with cypress hives, can I stain or preserve the exterior with out solid paint.

The cypress that is available these days, doesn't really last any longer than pine in my experience. I wouldn't waste my money on it. You can paint or not paint. Hard to say which lasts longer. It probably depends on your climate.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stoppainting
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnotinvented.htm#notpainting

> Something that will not harm bees but keep the natural wood look. 
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdipping.htm


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Thanks, MB. Looking foward to seeing you in St. Louis on Saturday.

Your link shows a homemade box. What are your dimensions? Thickness of material? Stainless Steel?

If I was to have one custom built, you thought yours was too shallow. Different size?

How do you heat yours?

Grant


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

Anyone care to elaborate on the slotted rack system. I have seen plans for it. I assume it goes between the bottom board and the first hive body.


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## Jayoung21 (Jun 22, 2010)

yes, the slatted rack goes between the bottom board and 1st hive body. It is used to encourage the queen to lay eggs closer to the bottom of the frame of the lower hive body. Personally, I've never used one


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

I was in your shoes this time last year. My personal experience with foundation was; My hive kits came with wax coated plastic foundation, so thats what I used. I sprayed them with sugar water and Honey bee healthy before I installed them and the newly installed package drew them out just fine. After the bees were established they didn't draw the the plastic foundation out as well until there was a full blown flow on. I later tried the wax foundation with the support wires, the bees seemed like those better.

I hope this little bit of info helps


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Can't go wrong with naturally drawn frames. I use unassembled wood frames from mannlake. I started with ritecell everything, after my first season the majority of my ritecell foundation was drawn out. After reading up on natural cell comb I decided to have the bees start drawing out natural cell. Aside from all of the differing opinions about the effectiveness of natural cell on controlling diseases and how it's better for the bees my main motivating factor was cost. I simply couldn't afford to expand as aggressively as I wanted and at the same time put out the extra cash for foundation. I'm in the process of having all of my frames in the brood's nest drawn out as natural cell while using the ritecell frames in all of the supers. Natural cell without wires + full frame of honey + extractor = HUGE mess. I had so many blow outs trying to extract that I ended up just cutting up the frames and turning them into chunk comb honey. Blessing in disguise because my chunk comb honey was fetching $10.00 a pound at the local markets and was selling as quickly as my 3lb jugs and 1lb bottles.

_EDIT_

This is kind of an after thought. If you decide to go with wax coated plastic, RiteCell or something else it really, really helps to put an extra coat on yourself if you can find some untainted beeswax. I used a foam brush from Wal-Mart and bought 20lbs of wax off of a beek I know a couple counties over and coated 500 frames of rite-cell with an extra layer. It was tedious boring work but 3-4 days later and a bottle of whiskey to fight the boredom and I had some pretty stellar frames that the bees drew out quite a bit quicker then the ones without the extra coating.

My $0.02


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## Ttankofish1 (Feb 15, 2013)

Another question, I'm almost done . I still have to cover the outer cover and cut the hand holds I also think I'm going to make the slatted racks. The question is about paint, do you just paint the outside or do you paint the edges where they touch when stacked?


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

If you paint those edges, the boxes will last longer, but will also stick together much more, especially with latex paint. 

Cornstarch or talcum powder liberally applied to the painted edges is supposed to help keep them from sticking.

I don't bother, as the bees will coat the wood with propolis fast enough.

Peter


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## Serendipidity (Feb 3, 2013)

By all means use Cypress if you have access to it. If you have to buy go with Rossman as they have the best price on Cypress hives and related products. I would stick with all wax foundation. All dimensions are available in bee source!!


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## bobbarker (May 23, 2012)

I paint the edges of the boxes as well. They do stick somewhat, but hey, everything out there is sticky. I kind of like that they stick as it gives me a little (probably unnecessary) piece of mind that they are better sealed against wind, rain, critters, etc. It doesn't take but a second with the hive tool to separate them when you're inspecting. 

Basically what I'm saying is, I'm not right, nobody else is right, because nobody is wrong. Do it whichever way you want to, and if you don't like it, do it the other way next time. Neither choice is bad.


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

After painting the edges of my hives and letting the paint dry, I rub some paraffin wax on them and it keeps the boxes from sticking to each other.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Reading this thread I note a concept hinted at but not directly stated: where you are located makes a big difference in terms of whether a slatted rack, screened bottom board or other specialized equipment will have any benefit. The best way to find out what equipment best suits your area is to talk with area beekeepers about what equipment they've used in the past.

It may be that no one in your area has worked with slatted racks (in which case by all means be the grand experimenter) but it may be that they've been widely tried and found not to be much help IN YOUR PARTICULAR AREA.

For me in Downeast Maine (coast) my bees don't have issues drawing and using frames fully so I have not felt a need to experiment with slatted racks, nor have I made a real effort to find out what others experiences with them have been.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

AD, I think the OP is going to use screened bottom boards....are you using screened bottom boards, also? From what I've read (yelp, newbee relaying book learning  ) solid bottom boards don't benefit as much from slatted racks as do screened bottom boards in regards to encouraging the queen to lay towards the bottom of the bottom frames.

Ed


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## Ttankofish1 (Feb 15, 2013)

I have asked locals and have not found anyone who has used them. I think I will build them and put one give on one and one not . I will have two hives side by side and see if I see a difference. If I do and feel its better I'll ad it two the second. I understand other factors can be at play but with only two hives gives that's the best I could come up with.


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## Ttankofish1 (Feb 15, 2013)

Still have to do the slatted rack and paint then cover the tops with stainless steel.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Thanks, MB. Looking foward to seeing you in St. Louis on Saturday.

It was nice to see you again.

>Your link shows a homemade box. What are your dimensions? 

I don't have it handy to measure, but it is approximately 20" by 22" and 14" deep.

>Thickness of material?

About 1/8". Not sure what that is in gauge...

> Stainless Steel?

No.

>If I was to have one custom built, you thought yours was too shallow. Different size?

I would make it slightly deeper. I'd like to be able to do three mediums or two deeps and one on end in the middle and cover them all. With a little extra to keep it from running over that's probably at least 24" deep...

>How do you heat yours?

I have a regular gas range that is outside and I have a windbreak made of plywood around it to keep the flame from blowing out and the tank from getting too cold from the wind. Maybe somewhere other than Nebraska the windbreak might not matter so much...


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