# Managing Langstrom hive like a TBH



## sampa (Mar 14, 2005)

If I don't use foundation, can I basically manage a langstrom hive like a TBH? If I just put in frames and a start strip, will I get most of the benefits of a TBH? I already have the langstrom equipment, and I'd rather just use it rather than having to get/make new boxes. It also seems like I'd get less collapse with a frame that has a bottom bar, but the bees can still put in any comb they want.


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

Other than it is not a TBH but a foundationless Lang, yes. Mr. Bush has much to say on foundationless frames.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have several. You will get the advantages of better support for the comb. You'll lose the advantage of the solid top bars being easier to work and the simplicity of building top bars.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

The idea is to let the bees build as close to natural comb and still be able to manipulate the bars/frames. IMHO use your frames with starter strips but take off the bottom bar, three sides should be enough to prevent collapse. Letting them build to their own depth will encourage small cell size in the brood nest. You may have a problem with comb attached from super to brood box. This is why they are built long and not high. My suggestion, try both and see for yourself. I for one have built 3 long square hives (Michael's specs) and will use his top entrance along with my TBH's this season. NOTE: Be sure, if you do build your own, to standardize all your bars so you can interchange them among your hives!!!!!


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Its easy to start with foundationless frames if you already have bees. Just stick in empty combs, between good well drawn combs. The bees will center the comb properly in the frame, you don't need special frames to do this.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Scott,
Thats great if you are a second or third season TBH'er many of these folks are just starting out. The concearn here was comb collapse and how to incorporate the two ideas (Lang & TBH). New members will always ask similar questions that have been asked in the past and will try and experiments that have already been tried, who knows someone may just stumble on something great, thats half the fun to me! (If my father knew how much I spent on saw blades just to end up with fire wood) WOW! The more I try the more the bees teach me.... so let the ideas flow who cares if we try to reinvent the wheel just as long as we have fun doing it.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

miki,
The person was asking about foundationless frames to get the same natural comb advnatages of a tbh. Most people already have combs, though I realize not all. In this case let the bees build on foundation, then cull the worst combs and replace with empty frames.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Building on foundation defeats the purpose unless you start with small cell and then you might have to cull this comb and regress again to get to the size you want. Why not skip the foundation all together and let them build what they want. I just had a tbh make it through the winter that way with no treatment at all last year. 
I did try the idea with the strait comb a dead out I had from last year had 5 nice strait bars full of honey I put them in the hive with an empty bar between each. The other one got robbed out but has some nice strait comb. I also noticed that the front bar was drawn thice as thick as the rest. Any ideas on that?


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## Milan-Slovakia (Sep 30, 2009)

Managing Langstrom hive like a Warre.


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## greengecko (Dec 16, 2008)

Milan-Slovakia said:


> Managing Langstrom hive like a Warre.


By "managing Langstrom hive like a Warre" I assume you mean starting the bees in the topmost hive box and moving downwards into additional hive boxes added underneath (nadiring) according to foraging conditions and the needs of the colony, right?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

sampa,
Do you mean Langstroth? Or is this Langstrom something I haven't heard of, yet.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

sampa said:


> If I don't use foundation, can I basically manage a langstrom hive like a TBH? If I just put in frames and a start strip, will I get most of the benefits of a TBH? I already have the langstrom equipment, and I'd rather just use it rather than having to get/make new boxes. It also seems like I'd get less collapse with a frame that has a bottom bar, but the bees can still put in any comb they want.


I'm guessing you mean 'Langstroth' (unless Langstrom was some Swedish beekeeper I have yet to hear about!) and yes you can, but there are some issues you will have to deal with.

First, you will need to decide which of the three Langstroth box sizes you will need to use to get the best effect. I have no idea, not having tried any of them, but I have done it with British National supers, which are somewhat smaller than Lang shallows, I seem to remember. Someone who has tried it with Langs will be better placed to answer.

Secondly, you will have the problem of _nadiring_, which is the opposite of supering, in that you add boxes at the bottom of the stack. When you have two or three boxes, that is OK-ish, but have you tried lifting five full Lang supers? Neither have I. You will need lifting gear.

Thirdly, you are going to have to deal with honey that is 'contaminated' with bee-poo, as they will be back-filling brood cells as they work down the stack. This is also true of the standard Warré, of course, and to many people it is not a problem, but to some it is.

Fourthly, you need to figure out how to tell where the bees are in the vertical plane. I have used a medical stethoscope, or you could fit windows.

Fifthly, the Warré was designed with particular dimensions, presumably because the good Abbot had spent some considerable time and effort doing experiments and working out that it should have an internal, both-ways width of 30cm, which is considerably smaller than a Langstroth box. The walls are also much thicker, for very good reasons. Frames are not used, also for good reasons.

But hey - it's worth a try!


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

this thread is five years old. hopefully sampa has worked it out by now
anyone know what happened to scot mc pherson? is he frequenting a differant list?

i have some observations from bottom supering forty hives this last season.
i put one drawn comb in the center of eighty supers with foundationless frames to fill them out. i then bottom and top supered all hives giving the bees the option. every hive built out the top super, most needing more supers. no hives touched the bottom supers. 
i still plan on keeping a super on the bottom of the hive. it's a wonderful place for field bees to cluster and gives some "dead air" space between the sbb and the bees.
swarming was at an absolute minimum. i'm sure it gives many of the advantages of a slatted rack without the draw back of an extra piece of equipment.
i make my own supers so this is a good place to store them and have the bees "cure" them. in an emergency they are close to hand.


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