# the gold mine



## Jacobee (Dec 27, 2011)

ok I have seen a lot of beeks wanting to know what is the quickest way to get to the riches of commercial beekeeping. just send them to almonds and count the gold and silver bullion they get in return. what is it about this trade that soo many people think that they can grow to 1000 hives and make there millions.

it almost seems like some of you are encouraging them like it is a no brainer. buy nucs or packeges and boom you are a millionaire.

am I missing something , I have many commercial beeks that have not made it into that exclusive club even with 10-40 years experience.

are you just trying to sell them nucs or package bees or pollen sub or boxes. 

go ahead and chastify and ridicule me I can take it if I am wrong

I know some of you old timers have made it beyond belief but I am talking about the here and now. beekeeping is way different now than it was 20 years ago if you disagree then you are just lying to us.

anyways maybe this will interest some


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I don't recall seeing anyone say its EASY to make a million dollars??? I bet it is easier to make more off of almonds than other crops though. First off, you get the $160+ per hive. Lets use a commercial outfit that has 2000 hives, that's $320,000. If those same hives only did honey, they would have to average #80 each to make the same amount of money, a tough feat these days. Pollination is a huge kick starting chunk of money to sustain other aspects of being a comm guy. 

I am far from being a comm guy, but if a guy had the drive, will and willingness to take sacrifices and willingness to touch on all aspects of beekeeping from making packages/nucs, queens, honey, wax, pollination, feed sales, equipment rental/sales and so on..........im sure a million dollars could be made.

As far as most commercial guys saying they don't make much money.........well, they are indeed farmers/ranchers of livestock, and I have yet to find one that goes around bragging they make millions of dollars. My grandfather was a lifelong rancher, he had a decent bank roll but you would never know it by the clothes he wore, you would only see him throw money on the table when he was paying for lunch for all the old timers he was with, who were all also very well to do and would take turns arguing on who is going to handle the bill!!


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

You obviously are trying to cut corners and not willing to go big the right way. How much did Dave Mendez in Florida make selling his comm business???? I know comm beekeepers who are in the millionaire club, but im not going to call them out as it is none of my business to do so nor does it matter.

I'll make you feel better since you seem to be almost to the bottom of the bottle..............I run enough hives to still make it fun, and I see how much I make without really pounding the pavement, I know $1,000,000 is obtainable. I am worth little on the bank statement, but im a millionaire a few times over on real estate but I wont be the one seeing that money from the sale of the property as its worth more than that emotionally. Maybe my kids will be the ones to do it.........but not me.

I wonder just how many people laughed at Bill Gates and said there will never be any money in the tech business, seems to be a few multi-millionaires in that side of the business..............and quite a few of them are half my age.

The money is there for the taking...........you just have to have the drive to go and get it, which means you wont own a couch because there is no time to be sitting down, and you can sleep in the cab of your truck!!


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

oh your even better!!! I want names of people who said you only need to have 1000 hives to become a millionaire!! I mean, you are obviously calling people out on here, so lets hear it!!! I still don't recall anyone saying all you need to do is buy some packages and nucs and you are instantly going to be a millionaire!! Please state the threads, the posters and hard core evidence that stated its so easy to make a million dollars that a cave man can do it!!! I don't want your speculation, I want proof, can you provide it or are you drunk and just need to go home and sleep it off?

As for me, only one piece of property is deeded to the bank..........the other few thousand acres was paid for a long time ago. Yes, real estate is a whole different monster than bee keeping............or is it?? You have to time things right, you have to pay attention to things, you have to start with something that is not very fancy, you have to be willing to make some sacrifices and lastly........a butt load of luck. Of course, id rather be lucky than good.............life is easier that way.

Have another shot and lets hear how you really feel!!! Don't hold back!!


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Jacobee said:


> by the way you did call someone out , dave mendez. good job on keeping that a secret as if I didn't know.


Oh you mean everyone from hobbiest to commercial guys didn't know that one??? I really let that cat out of the bag!!! You wanted to know who makes millions, and I stated one that everyone knows, but that's not good enough for you. Put down the steele reserve and go sleep it off. 

And I didn't call him out, no need to, I don't know him personally, just stating fact that he is in fact in the millionaire club from bees, and judging by the number of hives he has run over the years, im sure he has made a decent living. 

I want YOU to name a few people that you claim have said its easy to make a million dollars in the beekeeping world, its in your first post on this thread, so you must have seen it in print some where, and since I missed it, any links to the posts and names would make me want to hit the bottle with you and be just as sour....................or full of excrement like you.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

And your right, bee keeping is different from 20 years ago. 

$170+ a hive for almonds compared to what, $70?? Im not sure, someone can correct me on that.

Honey is around $2.05 a pound compared to .25 a pound 20 years ago??? Again, someone can correct me if im wrong.

How come someone couldn't make a million dollars these days?? Maybe you can define WHY it cant be done since you know so much???


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Perhaps the first place to start is to "master" the trade. Your bio says "jack of all trades , master of none." I suggest you change the tone of your posts and talk more about your own experience and assume less about others.


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

I haven't heard a lot of beeks promote beekeeping as a get rich quick scheme. 

Even the successful commercial beeks I know, like most other successful farmers, are more likely to poor mouth their operation, and tend to be fairly modest. I've never heard one promote commercial beekeeping as "easy money machine". 

They're also more than just knowledgeable beekeepers, they work very hard and are very smart business people. None of them are just sitting back and watching their bees "bring in the money". 

There are a lot of people that love bees, are successful, and really enjoy it, but they'll never make a dime at beekeeping. For most it's not why they do it. Some of them will work their interest in bees into a sideline income, but have no desire to move it to the next level. Others just don't have what it takes. 

It takes more than knowledge of and experience with bees. It takes good business skills, and a lot of entrepreneurial drive and determination. A commercial beekeeper has to be a great business manager, they have to handle logistics, marketing, sales and negotiation, they have to have knowledge of business law, government regulations, accounting, and finance. 

Some of the best experts I know aren't commercial beekeepers, and some of the best commercial beekeepers aren't experts.


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

I think maybe what jacobee is saying is that people think they can make lots of money in bees and if they think that then let them try. 
Let them see what it takes, let them fail, or watch them succeed. 

There are only a few people that I personally tell to go for it. Those people already have knowledge of commercial beekeeping. 
Also what will happen when there are no more almond contracts, thats gonna make it hard to make the million

And bee ghost your numbers are a bit off. 

If any of us are telling people to take the plunge its because we want others to see what we do and how hard it really is to make millions


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

BeeGhost said:


> How come someone couldn't make a million dollars these days?? Maybe you can define WHY it cant be done since you know so much???


Well yes they could and many have but they are primarily those that doubled down and made the leap of faith by investing when times were poor. It not only takes a lot of commercial beekeeping expertise to make it work it also takes a huge investment to begin making your first dollar of profit. With top shelf turnkey operations selling for as high as $1,000 per round how many have the means or the desire to take the gamble that the next decade will be as good as the past decade has been. While making money at current prices is quite realistic try making the math work at the same time you are paying off a million plus dollar investment.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

What's Don say.... "You can make a million in beekeeping, you just need to start with 2 million..." Beekeeping is all about economy of scale, but as Jim points out, to get to the scale of operation to make a million, it takes substantial investment into the company. Yes, you can make money, but to scale up, all that money needs to go back into the company for years.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

I like many others read this forum daily and have for several years. In all honesty I cannot recall anyone asking if they could make a living or how to make a living with bee pollination. Nor do I recall a single member ever telling anyone it was as easy as pie. I have read many post on becoming a commercial bee keeper to make a living with varied responses.
I do not believe anyone here has ever implied becoming a millionaire in commercial beekeeping under any circumstances was possible and certainly not easy. I have read many threads where people who loved bees wanted to know the possibilities. Some were young people looking for carrier choices, Some were those fed up with pressures of corporate life. Some were couples or families looking for a united business opportunity.. I will not be so naïve as to say there are no dummies here. However, as a general rule the members here are either sharing information or seeking it. No one is looking for a get rich quick scheme. and Barry certainly would not allow anyone to take unfair advantage of someone with such a scheme.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

A million... before expenses and taxes, or after?

A million with 1000 hives is 1000$/hive, yearly. You better be retailing your own stuff if you want that kind of money... And selling a ton of small bottles. 1000$/hive isn't impossible, but that kind of average with 1000 hives must be insanely difficult. Selling all of that honey in premium small bottles, all of the wax in craft cosmetic products, propolis, pollen, pollination, and so on...

Also, investing a million dollars to start up a beekeeping business, relying on almonds... ouch. Now that's risky. Heard all the hate almonds got with the California drought? Some farmers were pulling out their orchards... California's agricultural model can't keep going like this forever, there's a limit to how much the water sources can provide.

All of the methods that allow for a huge $/hive income also generate the most expenses, too...


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## Jacobee (Dec 27, 2011)

there have been many posts in the past about some beekeeper with a few hives who wants to go commercial, they start running the math . but that is the problem this is a business with no simple equation.

I am actually trying to keep people from going broke barry, as you also think you can get to know me by reading my bio . I don't even know what I put in it I will have to check it out. now its time to go to master m trade on a sunday , again. 

maybe I shouldn't really care if someone is going to put there life savings at risk, all I try do do is get them thinking of all aspects about the trade not just pollination prices and price per pound.

this thread is a good example, some person is running numbers and somehow comes up with millions from a thousand. another thread some guy is talking about taking out a loan to get in the business, imo that person has already failed.


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

Tenbears said:


> I like many others read this forum daily and have for several years. In all honesty I cannot recall anyone asking if they could make a living or how to make a living with bee pollination. Nor do I recall a single member ever telling anyone it was as easy as pie. I have read many post on becoming a commercial bee keeper to make a living with varied responses.
> I do not believe anyone here has ever implied becoming a millionaire in commercial beekeeping under any circumstances was possible and certainly not easy. I have read many threads where people who loved bees wanted to know the possibilities. Some were young people looking for carrier choices, Some were those fed up with pressures of corporate life. Some were couples or families looking for a united business opportunity.. I will not be so naïve as to say there are no dummies here. However, as a general rule the members here are either sharing information or seeking it. No one is looking for a get rich quick scheme. and Barry certainly would not allow anyone to take unfair advantage of someone with such a scheme.


Well said.

Quite frankly a commercial beekeeper is a business person, and entrepreneur. 

There is a reason most people are employees and not business owners. It's not easy being in business for yourself, there are no standard step-by-step "instructions" for success. Business people have to embrace risk, they have to have drive and determination. The same qualities that will make a person a successful commercial beekeeper, can be applied to any business. 

Making money in ANY business is a challenge. If it weren't everyone would do it.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

I wish I had a nickle for every man and woman in America who was told "It'll never work..." and went on to be successful.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Good point Barry, and a dime for every one that tried and failed and wished failure on every one that came along behind. G


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Tenbears said:


> Nor do I recall a single member ever telling anyone it was as easy as pie.


If it were "easy as pie" and all made lots of cash, we'd all do it. It takes a certain individual (or group) to do so, I for one am not motivated to do so. Too old and not motivated to do the hard work to make it happen nor no one to leave it to should I have done so.


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

Barry Digman said:


> I wish I had a nickle for every man and woman in America who was told "It'll never work..." and went on to be successful.


That's kind of the first test an entrepreneur has to pass. There are lots of people who will tell you, "It's too hard...", "It'll never work...", or "It's impossible". If that dissuades you, you aren't meant to be an entrepreneur. 

_*“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”*_― Henry Ford


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

There is plenty of money in the bee industry right now. But the main reasons are poor forage for bees, high tariffs on Chinese honey, high mortality rates over winter. I often encourage people to get into the bees but I tell them to work for a beekeeper first.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

As one of the few 5th generation commercial beekeepers, I can attest that it is possible to accumulate a Million Dollars of wealth in 4 generations, but it only takes a few years to loss it. 

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The other night my wife reminded me what I had said about beekeeping when I first started to go 'full time'
"this business is easy"


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Ian said:


> The other night my wife reminded me what I had said about beekeeping when I first started to go 'full time'
> "this business is easy"


It is easy where you are, from November thru till March, doesn't get any easier.

At this time of year, you make up for those months, and not one of us feels sorry for you.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Jacobee:

If your goal in life is to end your life in this world with a casket full of cash you can go for it in a lot of different if not easier ways.


Until you have a crew to do all the work for you get ready to be everything under the sun. From Truck driver and mechanic to schlep of all schleps. 


Want to get a realistic vision of the "big bucks" glory this all entails sign up to work for a commercial beek for a full year with the goal of not missing a minute of the action.

SUch as: 

Like working 30 hours straight?

Like getting that call or text to move a load of bees in 3 hours while your daughter is walking beside you arm in arm as she's walking " down the aisle?"

Like drinking 3.5 gallons of Gatorade in a single day cause your life is lived at 100 degrees with a few layers of cloths on?


Someday if I have time I post the tough stuff ( not the fluff above) one needs to learn to deal with and accomplish in this big bucks easy job !!!!!!!!!!


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## Jacobee (Dec 27, 2011)

I will leave this thread with a simple question to new enteprenours in this trade, when you are contemplating going commercial and asking advise do you want the blue pill or the red pill. yes lots of money can be made but not by most who try.


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## Jacobee (Dec 27, 2011)

I was done but honey 4 all, why are you directing that post to me. all that is in your post is no stranger to me except, I would take time out to walk a daughter down the isle, if i understood that correctly. I think something is lost in translation. 

I have to watch what I type , as no cuss words were in my posts, just responses to people attacking me that got deleted. like I said in op. I can take it. 

it seems my 2 cents about trying to explain this trade is not as easy as many think it is worthless. 

so go forward new commercial guy and make your millions


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

grozzie2 said:


> It is easy where you are, from November thru till March, doesn't get any easier.
> 
> At this time of year, you make up for those months, and not one of us feels sorry for you.


Lol  hit the nail on the head


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

At the age of 68, I have verified what my daddy always told me about getting rich:

It doesn't really matter how much you make. What's important is how much you keep.

The only lasting wealth comes from providing a benefit to others. When starting any business the first question should be: Who will benefit and how much will it benefit them?


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## Agis Apiaries (Jul 22, 2014)

BeeGhost said:


> I don't recall seeing anyone say its EASY to make a million dollars???


We are already working on our second million dollars! We gave up on the first one.

I think what a lot of new beeks don't get is that if you are in it for the money, a good knowledge of beekeeping is great, but you also have to be exceedingly good with your business and marketing skills if you want to "get rich."


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Babybee post #20..... Very well said.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Jacobee said:


> there have been many posts in the past about some beekeeper with a few hives who wants to go commercial, they start running the math . but that is the problem this is a business with no simple equation.
> 
> I am actually trying to keep people from going broke barry, as you also think you can get to know me by reading my bio . I don't even know what I put in it I will have to check it out. now its time to go to master m trade on a sunday , again.
> 
> ...


It seems this whole thread you started is about venting and frustration and sour grapes. I looked back and saw you witnessed your first bee being born in 2012. A year or so later there is talk of owning 230 hives. Now 2015 and this thread.
Maybe I'm wrong but by the looks of it you may have bit off more than you could chew right now entering the commercial arena without the experience necessary to do so. 
This pie in the sky beekeeping story would go a long way towards helping others if that is your point.


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> It seems this whole thread you started is about venting and frustration and sour grapes. I looked back and saw you witnessed your first bee being born in 2012. A year or so later there is talk of owning 230 hives. Now 2015 and this thread.
> Maybe I'm wrong but by the looks of it you may have bit off more than you could chew right now entering the commercial arena without the experience necessary to do so.
> This pie in the sky beekeeping story would go a long way towards helping others if that is your point.


I can certainly understand that.

Back in 2004, against all my better judgement, and conventional wisdom, I financially backed a restaurant. (ouch, it still stings)

Needless to say, today I'm very sour on the "commercial" food service business. I've no idea how anyone makes money in that business, and yet obviously they do. But I do know, I didn't. 

That's the thing about "subject experts", a lot of people seem to think that's all it takes. The people I backed thought they were "subject experts" on food, dining, and entertainment. But a it takes more than "knowing your stuff" to make a go of it commercially. There can be a lot of "moving parts" to a business, that have little to do with "subject matter"

Business is business. And while that doesn't mean that "subject experts" can't also be commercially successful, it just means there's a lot more to it, than just that. Business, marketing, sales, planning and execution, accounting, finance, logistics, and management are all required. And not only does a person have to have knowledge of these things, they have to have "street skills", and an ability to execute it. 

I don't care what you're trying to make money at. 

The simple truth is not everyone wants to be, or even if they have the drive and desire, has the skillset, to run a successful business. Which is why most people are employees. It's also why most businesses ...fail. 

Failure sucks, no body tries something with the belief they might fail at it. So when it happens it can be soul crushing. It's becomes hard to imagine how ANYONE could succeed where you failed, and yet, they do.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Very good post, Qvox.
You nailed it!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Qvox - all quite true, but let's look at another aspect. In the restaurant business you could control most factors. You could choose your menu, location, advertising. In most circumstances, corrective action could be immediately taken to offset any errors.

In agriculture and apiculture, there is no way to take corrective action for weather. We can feed, but it is hard to make money on a honey crop that does not exist. 

Your thoughts?

Crazy Roland


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

Roland said:


> Qvox - all quite true, but let's look at another aspect. In the restaurant business you could control most factors. You could choose your menu, location, advertising. In most circumstances, corrective action could be immediately taken to offset any errors.
> 
> In agriculture and apiculture, there is no way to take corrective action for weather. We can feed, but it is hard to make money on a honey crop that does not exist.
> 
> ...


I think all businesses have unique environmental challenges. No business can control it's environment. All a business owner can do is develop a good plan to deal with the controllables. No amount of experience or knowledge can change environmental conditions. I don't care if it's natural weather, consumer behavior, or economic and business environment. 

All any business owner can do is anticipate and have a plan for as many contingencies as possible, diversify and remain as flexible as possible. I suppose "flexibility", the ability to adjust to changing economic and environmental conditions is the most important, since all contingencies aren't necessarily foreseeable. And when all else fails, the ability to hunker down and weather the storms can't be beat.

As far as agriculture goes, I think apiculture has some distinct advantages. For one thing, a commercial beek can and, in my opinion, should diversify income streams. Unlike a farmer depending on row crops, who can't move his land, a commercial beek can have at least some degree of migratory capability.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

True, beekeepers can move their bees, but did you read the part about spouses absconding?

From a historical perspective, beekeeping has always had it's dismal crisis, be it wax moths, AFB(before sulfa drugs), synthetic pesticides of the post war period, mites, and CCD. 
i have never heard of a dairy farmer loosing 90 percent of his herd, or 90 percent of a crop, and not know the cause. I will concede that the chicken world is having problems, but again, they know the cause, and can take corrective action. As of yet, I do not believe the cause or cure for CCD is positively know, 

It is for that reason I feel that Apiculture is more risky than a restaurant.

Crazy Roland


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

Roland said:


> True, beekeepers can move their bees, but did you read the part about spouses absconding?
> 
> From a historical perspective, beekeeping has always had it's dismal crisis, be it wax moths, AFB(before sulfa drugs), synthetic pesticides of the post war period, mites, and CCD.
> i have never heard of a dairy farmer loosing 90 percent of his herd, or 90 percent of a crop, and not know the cause. I will concede that the chicken world is having problems, but again, they know the cause, and can take corrective action. As of yet, I do not believe the cause or cure for CCD is positively know,
> ...


THANK GOODNESS FOR RISK!



Roland, I agree with you, apiculture has many unique challenges. I hope I'm not misleading ANYONE into believing that apiculture is a "low risk" venture. Because it's not. You've touched upon a few of the risks beekeepers face. 

Oh, and here's the real kicker. IF the problems of pesticides (...and I believe, probably certain herbicides and several other agricultural and synthetic inputs) were miraculously solved, and some brilliant entomologist discovered the cause, and came up with a equally miraculously, cheap, simple, and effective protocol for preventing CCD and dealing with all the ills of bees, ...then we'd just have new problems.

Economic problems

Namely _falling_ prices for things like bulk honey, hive products, pollination fees, queen rearing, and bees. 

Can you imagine how unprofitable a business would become if all risks to that business were suddenly removed? So thank goodness for risk! 

It keeps businesses healthy and profitable!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Agreed, if there where no problems, then it would be a survival of the fittest scenario. It is a level playing field. He who is the most efficient wins, the others go out of business. I can live with that. 

When a select few loose 90 percent of their hives, and no one knows from what, our lack of knowledge of the cause removes potentially efficient and formally prosperous beekeepers. This does not improve the species.

I bet the person who had the bad restaurant experience knew exactly what they did wrong. The beekeeper that lost 90 percent of there hives may still not know what killed them. To me, there is a huge difference in the two situations.

Crazy Roland


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Qvox said:


> Economic problems
> 
> Namely _falling_ prices for things like bulk honey, hive products, pollination fees, queen rearing, and bees.


Are you implying this is the case with these now?

If so I do not see what vantage point you sit on to see things.

Every thing we do has seen the price escalate nicely. Do I wish they were higher? Yes. Even with high bee losses the prices of a the other components make this gig doable.


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

Honey-4-All said:


> Are you implying this is the case with these now?
> 
> If so I do not see what vantage point you sit on to see things.
> 
> Every thing we do has seen the price escalate nicely. Do I wish they were higher? Yes. Even with high bee losses the prices of a the other components make this gig doable.


No

I was hypothesizing that IF all the problems currently faced by beeks were all, somehow miraculously solved (no longer problems) then we'd have a new one, the "supply" of healthy working hives would rise, producing more of the products of apiculture (e.g. honey, bees, nucs, pollination potential). ...and we all know what happens when supply rises.


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