# How many beekeepers come out even or better.



## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

If i wasnt expanding and buying more hardware etc, then i would be making a couple hundred a year on my honey and wax sales. but i plan to spend that money and probably more on new boxes and frames etc.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

I am in the green. Of course I use my own labor and contribute alot of time to the hobby. Make all of my own equipment, minus frames. And make all my nucs and increases. Never bought bees. Catching a few swarms helps too, not only to diversify the apairy but to replenish sold nucs. 

Its definately possible to make money, many folks do, although usually not a huge money maker. Not a get rich scheme. For most hobbyists with a few hives it is a loss.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Once you reach your target number of hives and have drawn honey supers for them, you should only need enough yearly equipment to supply any nucs or hives you sell. The big variable is your winter losses # and how many replacement nucs you have to buy each year. If you have 50% losses you will need twice as much equipment to produce your replacement bees. That may be expensive honey and a hard way to make money. Only live bees make honey or money.


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## rogman (May 9, 2014)

I have a friend with just a hand-full of hives who told me he was going to save all of the beekeeping money he made one year to buy his wife something nice. He made $1800, and it only cost him $2000 to do it


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Spree


> If i wasnt expanding and buying more hardware etc, then i would be making a couple hundred a year on my honey and wax sales. but i plan to spend that money and probably more on new boxes and frames etc.


Doesn't sound like spending if using money from the bees.

burns



> Make all of my own equipment, minus frames.


So far I have made everything including frames, smoker, protective equipt.



> Never bought bees.


Told all the mushroom hunters to look up and am going to use my hives as traps till I need them, What are my chances of getting by with out buying bees. Because you have to order so early I have about decided I better buy bees as I have never seen or caught a swarm before. I might jack around getting them bought where I have to wait till next year if I am not careful. The one thing. I could get new chickens and butcher the old and put a sign on my drive and sell eggs but I don't want to deal with people. I don't dislike people but delt with them enough in my life and just want to piddle. The few chickens I got rid of I just gave away. I probly won't work hard to sell stuff. I might make my family fat though.
Thanks
gww


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

If it's just a hobby, does it matter? I've spent a lot of money, tell one of my landowners it's $40 for a 3g bucket of honey, never cash the checks... I don't think twice about it, the cost of equipment alone takes time to recoup or you pretty much reinvest everything until expansion phase is done. Can you make your own boxes and stuff to save money, yes you can, but you have to be set up to do it, and I would assume 80% of hobbyist aren't. Of course, some of it is regional, if you're pulling 5-6 supers a hive per year you will do better and if you can develop your market that's a bonus too. I also try to support other people on Beesource, I find it money well spent, no regrets.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I am happy to make my expenses each year. I sell no honey and only enough nucs to cover my sugar bill. The health benefits and the pleasure of keeping bees is payment enough.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jrg
Yea, I give better then I sell, I spent 30 years making a profit and now I have no interest in working hard enough to make another. I just want to stay interested and at home with enough things that don't break me to keep me busy. I don't really like waste and don't want so much that I feel compelled to sell or break myself buy giving tons away and dont want so little that every emergency means buying another package of bees. I just want to stay busy and at home and interested and remember that I am on a fixed income that is enough money if I don't go crazy. 

"I am happy to make my expenses each year. I sell no honey and only enough nucs to cover my sugar bill. The health benefits and the pleasure of keeping bees is payment enough."

How many hives do you have to get to this point?
Thanks
gww


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Be careful posting here as the IRS is monitoring this thread! . We all know that except for the commercial folk, beekeeping is a money loser!!


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I don't think I will ever get my sunken costs back for extraction equipment and such. I give away a lot of honey to family and friends and it is just not a business but a hobby like your chickens.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

gww said:


> If this was bees, how hard would it be to hit at least the level of my chicken hoby?
> 
> Or is there a good liklyness of it turning into an unmanageble money pit?


With decent hive management you should make a profit every year. We have no problem selling every bit of honey we produce. We are in the black every year, and have not started selling wax or bees. 

On the other hand, if you don't manage your hives, then yes - beekeeping could turn into a money pit.

Shane


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

JRG13 said:


> Of course, some of it is regional, if you're pulling 5-6 supers a hive per year you will do better and if you can develop your market that's a bonus too.


In VA our hive average is about 35 to 40 pounds, probably less in our mountains. I would be exceedingly thankful if we could pull 5-6 supers per hive. Sometimes we get a hive that will produce two ten frame mediums. But those are the exceptions.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Can anybody tell me what happened to the little bars that let you select quote to wrap around some ones text that you paste. It was here but aparently I have changed something cause now all I get is smily faces and such. I sure would like a way to get it back like it was so I could hilight what I want to answer.
Thanks
gww


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I believe those that have between 20-30 hives, have drawn comb and have paid for all their equipment can do well, not great but well. You now know how to manage you apiary, that is control mites, control swarming, recognize and manage diseases, can raise and re-queen your hives yearly and know to bring in some outside queens every now and then for diversity. You have your own resources to manage losses so that you need not buy packages or nucs. You have developed a market for your honey......

Except for woodenware & frame replacement, some sugar and some odds & ends , you're basically ......set........the rest is gravy (honey)..........


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I'm in the black with 20-30 hives as long as I don't count my labor. First couple of years, I spent $1500. After that, in 3 years, honey sales have paid for all expenses and I've made back my initial investment plus a little.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

cg3 said:


> I'm in the black with 20-30 hives as long as I don't count my labor. After that, in 3 years, honey sales have paid for all expenses and I've made back my initial investment plus a little.




Your "little" is what you received for your labor. But look at all the fun you've had! Not too many hobbies pay for themselves..............


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I have only talked in person to 4 beekeepers and two of them have did it long term. One has I think about 8 hives and the other I though said ten. Another one has I think he said 8 and has been doing swarm removals for a couple of years and has been keeping bees for about 7 or 8 years. The other one has only been doing it for a year. These are just one phone call or two per person about bees. All very helpful people. I have one that is close that is going to give me some old brood comb for my traps and two have offered to take me through their hives. 
I guess if I don't screw up and not get bees this year, I will have a bit better understanding next year of what to expect. I am retired and have plenty of room and can spend as much time as needed. My goals are at this point not to make an income but more to add things to my life that I might use and enjoy. 

I have solar, garden a bit, planted some fruit trees, chickens, grapes, None that I take too seriously but that I get a certain enjoyment out of. All pretty small scale and all till now pretty neglected. I have only been retired for a bit over a year and intend to do a bit better now but still not too seriously.

I don't let the chickens run out of water or food and do count the eggs but don't run it like a buissnes where I cull the bad and weigh the feed.

Solar and expesially wind are pure losers from an economic stand point the minute you add a battery but I built the turbines and like when they spin. 

I don't have it in me to work very hard to sell anything. I love being able to do the small things that I do do for others with out needing paid but also don't let myself get overwhelmed buy doing very much.

My dad used to grow a really big garden and end up giving it to the members of the church or dropping it off at the old folks homes. I don't do that as much cause I am a bit more of a hermit and so only see my family most and there for that will be the benificeries of my actions. 

I never once even thought about bees till my son in law ask if I would mind if he tried bees on my place. I figured I would try it cause I am not above bribery to get them to come and see me rather then me go to them.

I started researching and built the hives and am finding it pretty interesting.
Time will tell. I apretiate your insites. 
gww


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Fingers crossed, more learning and effort and I will be in your position in a year or so.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

gww said:


> I don't have it in me to work very hard to sell anything.


Honey sells itself.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"Or is there a good liklyness of it turning into an unmanageble money pit?"
It's cheaper than golf.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

cg3
"Honey sells itself."
Believe it or not, eggs sell themselves but the kids and family come first. All the kids friends want to buy them and some family would buy mine if I had enough but have to buy from others.

Thanks
gww


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

Most hobbyists I know stay in the red because they let their hives die or swarm. I started with one my dad gave me and wound up with three that first year and made five gallons of honey. I sold that honey and bought used equipment for pennies on the dollar and had eighteen or twenty the second year and made 75 gallons. I've been in the black every year, have build up, sold out, and built up again to a lot of hives and have averaged revenues of 200 plus per hive on honey sales and that's before selling any bees. If you get the knack for beekeeping it can be a generous sideline business. I would also say that beekeeping is far more difficult with the coming of the hive beetle, the decline of the effectiveness of apistan and whatever pathogen that kills 1/3 of my bees in some bee yards every year.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

If a person's only goal is making money, I would not recommend small scale beekeeping. There are much better ways. If a guy with 10 hives spent the same amount of time mowing lawns or something similar, he'd make more money mowing lawns. The reason to keep bees is because you like to keep bees. 

However, I think a beekeeper ought to pretty easily cover the costs of the hobby and even generate a little profit. If a person was disciplined enough to eat all the costs on 20 hives every year, take every dime of revenue from the same hives and put it in an IRA starting at age 25, I bet that person could retire pretty well (and much better than if he had just saved the expenses and not kept bees).

I have chickens too, and it's easier to generate revenue from bees than chickens. For the most part, bees feed themselves. My chickens free range some, but they still need to be fed.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

So far I have about $12 in it in bought nails, staples and glue and about 3 weeks playing with the table saw. Took lot longer on the table saw then I thought it would but I enjoyed it. I am probly about ready to spend $150 and gas on the bees to get started. The letting them swarm and or die remains to be seen. You guys comments are increasing my comfort level. I am excited to try it and always enjoy the prosses of learning new things as long as I have an internet connection to help. I do find that most things you are trying to learn is usually more intricate then it looks on the serface (except chickens). 
I have enjoyed your comments.
gww


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

tsmullins,

Cali is about on par with you guys, I figured it would be better over in VA since it seems greener over there than it is here most of the time. I think the main point is the OP want's to invest minimal time and effort in the venture which is fine, but recouping costs is harder that way.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jrg
I don't even intend on trying to recoup the cost, I am trying to figure how many hives it would take to have a chance of enough living through the winter so I never have to spend another $150 on bees again but not so much that I become a buisness. For all I know, swarm trapping might be enough to take care of my meager needs. The 20 year beekeeper thinks I might do alright in our area. I will buy bees atleast once cause I need to get learning and I may not catch any swarms. I am mostly just trying to find the comon sence point to do about what you said I wanted to do.
Thanks
gww


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## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

gww said:


> cg3
> "Honey sells itself."
> Believe it or not, eggs sell themselves but the kids and family come first. All the kids friends want to buy them and some family would buy mine if I had enough but have to buy from others.
> 
> ...


 I agree, eggs do sell themselves same as honey. I am too busy giving it to family and friends
My brother has a large garden,even has a small produce stand that he built,Gives all of the produce away.
He does it just because he loves gardening and does not want to waste it.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

king
I do agree with the waste setiment. I have found that chickens may be even better then piggs at disposing excess. I do try to give the good stuff to people first, dog next and chickens last.

Giving stuff away is better then throwing stuff away.
Gww


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

gww said:


> jrg
> I don't even intend on trying to recoup the cost, I am trying to figure how many hives it would take to have a chance of enough living through the winter so I never have to spend another $150 on bees again but not so much that I become a buisness. For all I know, swarm trapping might be enough to take care of my meager needs. The 20 year beekeeper thinks I might do alright in our area. I will buy bees atleast once cause I need to get learning and I may not catch any swarms. I am mostly just trying to find the comon sence point to do about what you said I wanted to do.
> Thanks
> 
> ...


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I've been doing it 20 years or so. I have had my ups and downs but never have gotten to zero hives in that time and have never bought any bees except queens. I think 6 was my low except for the first year. I hope to break even before I die


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Tim B said:


> I am not sure that letting the bees die every fall, extracting all the honey in the hive and buying a 75 dollar package in early spring isn't a viable plan.


Where are you finding packages for $75?

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-for-2015-3lb-Packages-and-5-Frame-Nucs-in-Pa
$110

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?306560-Ohio-late-May-Packages-for-sale
$120

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...n-Packages-for-Pick-Up-April-11-North-Alabama
$110

You can sometimes get them for cheaper, but you have to buy in bulk.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I've been in it about 11 years myself. Been between 1 and 60 hives over that time period. And yes, I have been down to zero before. 

As far as trying to maintain the same number of hives, it's possible but difficult. With varroa, nosema, SHB, and pesticides, sometimes you'll have losses of 10%. Sometimes it'll be 70%. If you're rolling with 20 hives, you can ride through the bad times and recoup when you have the good times. If you have 2 hives, a "70%" loss year will equate to a 100% loss year. The next year maybe you can catch a swarm. Maybe you can't, and you're out of it for a year or two. 

Catching swarms is a hit or miss game. Sometimes you hit, sometimes you don't. Put enough bait hives around, you may catch 1 or you may catch 40. Put one bait hive out, you may catch a swarm every year or it may take you 10 years to catch a swarm. Depends on location, the bait hive, the weather/year. 

As far as breaking even goes, I guess that depends. For me, average state honey production is 35 lbs per hive. If you sold it all, you're looking at about $250. But it'll cost you bottles, sugar, and medications to get there. All things you can't make yourself. Maybe $50 a year on that stuff. But then there's pollen sub, queens, and replacement of equipment (frames, foundation) that may cost you another $30-40 per year. So you're looking at walking away with maybe $160 per year. Not counting labor. It'll take you way more than 20 hours a year to get those 35 lbs of honey. But that's neither here nor there. To get that 35 pounds of honey, you'll need an extractor and some uncapping equipment. You maybe able to borrow some from someone else, but if not that stuff gets expensive.

Can it be done? Sure. But you're better off working at costco as a bag checker.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

Learn to keep your hives alive then: Sell honey, sell nucs, sell queens, sell wax, sell value added products (lip balm and lotions), make and sell woodenware, buy frames and woodenware in bulk - assemble and sell at retail, teach classes, speak to local gardening clubs for a small honorarium...

If you call it a hobby then enjoy yourself and don't make breaking even an objective, if you manage it as a small business then the decisions become based on where time spent generates the most income.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

> you'll need an extractor and some uncapping equipment.


Guess I will have to make one. I made a chicken plucker that works pretty neat.

I am enjoying the perspectives put forward. I got a zero turn mower that goes 12 mph. I could make money but don't really intend to. Did I mention I am kind of a hermit. 

Sometime I think I would like to make money but mostly I just don't want to spend much and want to learn new things that are interesting that I can do at home. 

Also I got 20 acres that it would be nice to use in some fasion besides deer hunting. 

I have spent the last year reading everything I could on how to be successful on bee keeping and that alone has been fun.

I am a worrier of sorts in a way that lowers my confidence some but so far have finnished my projects and not just started them.

You guys are a big help cause you keep putting perspective out that I would not have thought to think about. 

Thanks
gww


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## PeterP (Feb 5, 2014)

Gww, your post is interesting to me. I'm retired and 5 years into my hobby. It has been the only hobby that has paid for itself plus enough to pay for my wife's painting hobby. I give away to family and friends but I also sell; so long as there is no work in the selling. I was warned at the beginning that if "I got into it for the bees I might get out of it because of the honey". Extracting and bottling is labour that looses its appeal after several hundred pounds.

I wintered 8 hives and 2 nucs. My goal is 6 production hives which in my area will produce about 5-600 pounds. I live in a large urban area and local honey goes for about $6-8 500gr (~1 pound). Family and friends take about 50 pounds max. I wholesale by the case to a high-end bakery for $4.75 about 20 case yearly. They mark it up 40%. A friend sells at a church bazaar, I get the wholesale price, they get the mark up. I sell at various clubs I attend for $5 a jar because I don't want to make change. $5, $5, $5, as much as you want. I sell out before the next crop comes in. I find that people value a deal as much and some times more then a gift.

I purchased 2 nucs originally, plus 10 used boxes with drawn frames. A friend extracted the first year and then I put out for an extractor i could hump to the basement when not in use. I make my own boxes and woodenware in general. I bought queen cells and last year raised my own 6 queens. You will need about 5-10 hives if you want to raise queens other then doing splits and leaving them to raise their own.

I put 8 kilos (20 pounds) sugar into each over wintered hive. I apply formic and oxalix for mites (~$5 hive?). 50 cases of jars a year costs about $500. I spend endless hours thinking and reading. I find the labour to manage the bees after the first year or two is the same for 4-10 hives. 

It is a good hobby if you are in a productive area and you manage the bees. Feed them when they need it and treat for pests. 

Regards Peter


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

GWW:

I am like you, older, and not interested in developing a new business. I have a large garden, fruit, etc. (and solar, too, as my husband is in the business). I have four hives that started out as three in 2013. I keep the bees purely for the fascination of caring for them. (Like ant farms on a big-enough scale for adults to actually play in, is the way I look at it.) 

I don't particularly like honey so I don't need any. My first year I left what there was for the bees. This past fall I removed about 70-80 lbs of it (still in the combs and frames) as I was settling my hives down for the winter. But each hive still weighed well over 150 lbs (the limit of what I can weigh with my set-up). Calculating from the weight of the filled frames left in the hives, I probably could have removed around a couple of hundred lbs more of honey and still have been at a decent winter weight for my area. Honey, IIRC correctly weighs roughly 11.75 lbs per gallon, so that my overall surplus - had I taken it - might have been in the neighborhood of 20-24_gallons_. That's a lot of honey (and we did have an unusually good honey year here locally in 2014). And that's just from four hives, one of which resulted from a spilt this summer so not didn't make as much honey as the others. (But I shared out the honey evenly among all of them before winter.)

I have spent money to purchase enough woodenware for six complete (and well-furnished) hive stacks, spent money on chemicals and equipment to treat for mites, some protective clothing, modest number of bee tools and books, ample insulation for wintering (most expensive item, after the cost of the boxes), paint for the boxes, smoker fuels, 250 lbs of sugar (only used 70 lbs in two years), etc. But none for bees as all of my original (and still existing) colonies in 2013 were from swarms that were removed from my barn walls. And of course I have spent nothing to extract any honey as it's still in combs (in the hives or in cold storage in my barn). I have access to an extractor and harvesting equipment through my bee club, so I will probably use that at least initially, or pay someone to extract for me.

The main cost in my life is the surprising amount of time it takes; sometimes inconveniently when I have other important gardening tasks to do. Last summer that really affected my gardening plans, but I am hoping for a better balance this year. 

This summer I plan to do additional splits to increase my hive count to six (i.e. to divide the two of my original three which were not divided in 2014), which is my self-imposed limit. I may find that the increase from four to six tips the balance and that it is too much. We'll see. 

I have no interest in raising bees for sale, nor honey production. But I can see that if I continue to have such an annual honey surplus (even if we used it in our kitchen, we could hardly use up 20 gallons per year!) I will have to do something with it. Having raised fruit and vegetables commercially for many years, I know that I do not want to go to any more farmers' markets or sell from my farm. Perhaps I will find someone who will become my wholesale customer. Or perhaps I will just gve it away to my local food bank.

I think if you have a couple of hives (I would not recommend starting with a single colony, even though it seems on the surface like the sensible, and modest, thing to do; there are technical reasons for this recommendation), you will generate more than enough honey, after the first year or so, for your waffles and with ample to give away to your family. The question is whether you will think that will this repay your initial outlay and the time and trouble it takes.

And whether your pleasure in being a bee_keeper_ offsets the financial costs and time investment you will need to make. Since you are already gardening on an intensive scale, I would guess you'd find bees quite intriguing. Perhaps it would a good idea to shadow another beekeeper for this summer and see if you like bugs enough to give it a go on your own.

Enj.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Peter
I thank you for your post and found it very interesting also. I really don't know if I am in a productive area or not. I don't see a lot of crops close but a two mile area is pretty big and I am sure there are some. My dad lives on 180 acres and most years there are about 35 or so acres of his in crops. That is where I will set traps but it is about 9 miles away and I wan't the bees close. I guess time will tell. I think you are doing pretty close to what I am looking to do. I will still just get one or two hives this year to check it out. Heck, I might end up being a whimp. Once I know if I can expand with swarms or splits, I will consider my next move. This also gives me a bit of time to improve on my equipment situation.

Cheers
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

enj
So far, time is what I have a bit of. I have enough money but I am a bit consevative. So far I have built everything I have now with the stuff laying around mine and my fathers house. I have about $12 bucks in my stuff if you don't count I used my stull that was sitting there and now can't use it for something else. I made the smoker and protective gear. I just enjoyed coming up with ways to make it as much as the actual haveing of it after it is done.

I am not really the gardener as my wife is much better at it then me. I basicaly build the raised boxes she likes and use the tiller on the rest. I will be the one trying to take care of the fruit trees even though she is much smarter then me about all of it.

I showed a bee keeper my stuff and he kinda kept a strait face. So he was either nice and didn't want to break my bubble or I did ok.

He did offer to help and to take me through his hives. Very nice guy. He was trying pretty hard to get me involved in the club but I may be too antisocial to persue that very hard. If it is like most clubs, a couple of people actually do all the work and the rest just take the perks. I told him that from a dedication stand point I might not be a good club member. I think he is going to keep working on me though.

Loved you post
gww


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## catbackr (Jun 5, 2010)

Of course you've all heard the interview:

Q. What would you do if you won a million dollars?

A. I'd keep bees till the money ran out.

I used to think that was a joke.


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## roykessler (Feb 18, 2015)

If just starting out I would go about it the same way as I did when I was a teen and build 20 traps. If I ever had to go buy a box of bees it would drive me nuts. At some point have around 8-10 hives built and ready and your good. I don't like to sell so the boyscouts and girscouts come get the honey and bring my part of the money a couple days later.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

NeilV said:


> If a person's only goal is making money, I would not recommend small scale beekeeping. The reason to keep bees is because you like to keep bees.


I was barely breaking even now and again until 2 years ago. Even at that I was still happy because I was getting to keep bees. 2 years ago when I went 100% honor stand I popped firmly in the black such that I either buy equipment that helps me extract and bottle much faster or pay taxes on all the profit. I've chosen the former. I still show a profit and as an LLC I report it and pay taxes on it. It can be done and done well but it does involve risk. I'll eventually run out of equipment to buy but that may take another couple years, and by then I'll hopefully have a little more time for a few more hives.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Cat
What? Its not so funny now?

Roy


> If just starting out I would go about it the same way as I did when I was a teen and build 20 traps.


I hear you, the only thing is, I have been mushroom hunting for the last 40 years during prime swarm season and not once have I ever seen a swarm.

I have 6 traps (mediums which may be a bit small) and two hives setting in the feild and I am going to try to get a few more. Because poeple do catch swarms, it works on my consevative nature to not buy bees. However, I have never caught one so will probly at least get one or two packages or nucs to hedge my bet.

I will say in my pre teen years I bought a bunch of number 2 steal traps and all I caught was chip monks, squrrils and a skunk. When I used box traps I did catch rabbits but also caught about as many oppossoms.
Cheers
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

D
[QUOTE I went 100% honor stand ][/QUOTE]

I am assuming you mean an unattended stand where people just leave the money and take their product. It seems to have worked out. I know a lady that sells eggs that way and another that sell staw that way and has for 20 years.
gww


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

I put my costs of beekeeping in the about the same category as a membership to the YMCA or similar club/organization........it's my cost of reducing boredom, increasing entertainment and a little exercise thrown in for good measure, also I get to eat good stuff that is healthy for me.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

D Coates said:


> I was barely breaking even now and again until 2 years ago. Even at that I was still happy because I was getting to keep bees. 2 years ago when I went 100% honor stand I popped firmly in the black


When we bought our new place, my wife wanted to do the 'farm gate stand', I wasn't convinced, but sometimes you just gotta let her do what she wants to do. Today, I'm convinced, and this summer I will have a carpenter in to build a proper stand. The gate stand is zero effort, and next to zero for time, just go and put more bottles / buckets out once in a while, and empty the cash box once a day. No standing around for hours at boring markets trying to sell stuff. We did one thing to make it easy for folks, chose our bottle sizes so we have units in the stand at $5, $10, with buckets for $40 and $100 so nobody would have to fuss with change. Surprisingly enough, 40 dollar buckets are the best seller, and we have had zero slippage so far. There have been a few times when emptying the cash box, there is a discrepancy. I was miffed one day, it was short $100 because one of the big buckets was missing, and no money to account for it. The next evening, cashbox had an extra hundred dollar bill, and a note explaining. This year we have run more than 500lb of honey thru the gate stand at $7 a pound, and next year we will easily double those numbers. We are currently rationing how much goes out there to try make what we have left last until we can extract again.

Like you, we turned that money around, and bought some equipment to make handling the honey more efficient, last year we got a decent extractor, and this year we bought the nassenheider bottling machine. That was a very good investment, makes short work of bottling a few hundred pounds of honey. We also turned a chunk of change into more boxes, and in the spring we'll be doubling the colony count here. By next fall we expect to reach 'all equipment paid back' and be sitting on double the number of colonies we have now. After that, it'll only take roughly 1/3 of revenue from honey sales to buy enough equipment to double again.

What we are looking to now, is trying to decide where the increase in colony counts will end, and that'll be driven by 'just how much work is it tending the bees'. So far, I've discovered that when we doubled the count, work nowhere near doubled, and I can see why. Use extracting as the example, with the shiny new 9/18 extractor, two boxes of mediums is one load in the extractor, takes 15 minutes to uncap and spin a load. But it takes roughly an hour to account for setup, and cleanup. So doing 2 loads (100 lb of honey) takes an hour and a half, but doing 8 loads (400lb of honey) only takes 3 hours. 4x the result for only double the time. I find the same when going out to tend the bees, a dozen colonies was really no more work than 6. But we will stop the growth when we discover it's becoming 'to much work, not enough fun'. I expect that to happen between 50 and a hundred. But at that point, when we stop growing the colony count, we get another revenue stream too, instead of splits in the spring, we'll do nucs and/or packages. I think our line on colony count will be driven by 'one honey pull becomes a full day of extracting'. A 6 hour session of extracting will be roughly a thousand pounds of honey, do that twice in a season, and we'll have a decent little sideline on the go.

For us at this stage, it's all about taking the money from sales, and turning it into equipment that increases sales, while trying to reduce workload at the same time. Then at some point, we run out of gadgets to buy, and have enough colonies. At that point, it's just time and income, with some modest expenses for things like feed and medications. And we'll probably tuck a little aside for that year where losses are high, and we may need to purchase some replacement stock, but so far, we haven't had that issue. Our losses have been minimal, and we've been able to grow counts every year by simply splitting and buying more boxes.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Tim
I will be closer to you in thought.

grozzy
How cool, great totorial of what can be done and also how a lot of people are honest.
gww


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Honestly GWW,

I'd aim for 3 hives, and always have 3-5 nucs on hand.


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## Stella (May 22, 2013)

I think my beekeeping hobby initially sprouted from my "live off the land" kick a few years back. 

I have some chickens and share the eggs with friends. That ended up becoming a bartering situation. My friends wouldnt keep accepting those wonderful homegrown eggs without gifting something back. Its been great! And having those beautiful "feathered flowers" perusing the yard all summer is a gift in itself.

I didnt get into beekeeping to make money. I came into it to learn something new. 
Well, bees make honey and honey makes money. I dont believe Im profitable for all Ive got invested (I stopped adding it up years ago) but last year my bees went crazy making honey and I took the opportunity to sell by word of mouth. I made some cash!

If you go into it worried about the money, then dont.
If you go into it to enrich your life and learn about those fabulous bees, then do it.

Sometimes they will reward you with honey. I find my reward in the knowledge Ive acquired. I cant believe the things Ive learned!!!


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jrg
I am getting the ideal that that is probly correct. I could maby start three with my equipment but I would have to come up with more equiptment pretty quick. I might even have to "buy" lumber. I am having a real hard time commiting to a nuc or package. I know I need 2 or 3 but have not even committed to one yet. All the hives that are left are either the end of april or middle of may and I have to drive to get them on call. I have the one guy who will do the brood and tossed bee thing at that time and believes it will work. I keep thinking I might trap some bees and if all else fails I will still get late bees from that guy. doing it that way, I might only end up with one hive that might make it in time and might not. I could pay $187 and get a 3lbs package as early as the last week of march. I can not make myself make a decision cause I keep thinking if I do try and trap I still have the fallback guy in may. The only guy I met in person says he has good luck traping in our area. Can you tell I am cheep. I probly would only be willing to spend in the $300 range till I have tried something. I am willing for it to take two years before I get honey if I can expand from one or two hives to three or so.

I am running out of time and I am listening if everyone thinks my indecision is stupid. Running out of time on packages and nucs. listening if every body is thinking "well that cheep bas---" is not really commited. 

Am I penny wise and pound stupid if I end up with at least one hive and knowing more when buying for the next year if I need it? I know trapping is like fishing.
gww


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Between the honey sales, wax sales and removing bees from structures as a sideline business, we make a small profit every year. Of course most of the profit goes back into the business to sustain itself and for a vacation for the wife and I.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

GWW,

I meant that's what you need in the yard come winter, don't have to start out that way. Start with 2 hives, see how that goes the first year, come next year, you can make splits and the nucs yourself depending on how they survive, or even make a nuc or 2 this year in summer and see how that goes for you. For the nucs, I'd overwinter 5 over 5 or two 5 frame boxes. Are you going deeps or mediums, I don't recall?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Stella


> I think my beekeeping hobby initially sprouted from my "live off the land" kick a few years back.


Its sorta like that. why would I build frames and hives when I garentee if you count time I could get them cheaper. 

I bought my first house 30 or more years ago and it was a fixer upper. I had know ideal what I was doing. I can now pretty much fix anything. It will take me longer and may not be done with the same part that someone who does it day in and day out. But it will work and is usually better then what I started with.

It is an independant streak. I know a guy can not live without interacting and using stuff of the world but there is a unique pride and also great story telling (expesially if people are drinking) when you have did things yourself. And I don't want to reinvent the wheel but might, probly, I don't know, want to change the tire.

I do like to know before hand if it really can't be done or the odds are 80% against and 20 for.
Thanks
gww


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## Stella (May 22, 2013)

I dont think your "cheap". Im about as frugal as they come. I can squeeze a nickle out of 2 pennies, if I have to, so I get where your coming from. 

I think you should order up the nuc and jump right in. You will acquire a base of knowledge the first year. Just do it.


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## Stella (May 22, 2013)

GWW..{It is an independant streak. I know a guy can not live without interacting and using stuff of the world but there is a unique pride and also great story telling (expesially if people are drinking) when you have did things yourself}

Yes! Pride. And my grown kids think Im cool.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jrg

All medium ten frame. Also one long hive that has medium dimintions and equals about 3 mediums.
Thanks 
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

stella
I live in a zone 2 wind region Ie; not much wind. I have a windturbine that I built on an 80 foot tower that I built and everytime it really storms, I am proud of it.

I will never accuse myself of having any sense but will say I try to need little from others and try to do no harm to anyone.
gww

PS my grandkids like the wind turbine better then they like the solar.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

gww said:


> If this was bees, how hard would it be to hit at least the level of my chicken hoby?
> 
> Or is there a good liklyness of it turning into an unmanageble money pit?


The money pit is when you give away what you produce. Unlike chickens (hens) though, bees are self sustaining. They get their own food. To some extent chickens will forage too but up here there is no foraging in winter. And even in summer there isn't enough.
You probably would only need two hives for your own use but based on starting with 70 chickens just for yourself you might end up with more hives to supply the friends and relatives.

If you can overwinter your hives they are not a money pit at all.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

gww said:


> I hear you, the only thing is, I have been mushroom hunting for the last 40 years during prime swarm season and not once have I ever seen a swarm.


You'll be astounded how many bee trees and swarms are around once you put your feelers out. Might even find yourself getting to the "no thanks" point pretty quickly.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

gww said:


> Am I penny wise and pound stupid if I end up with at least one hive and knowing more when buying for the next year if I need it?


Absolutely not. I started with one hive twice. That is the risk you take with only one hive if it doesn't make it you have to buy more bees (not counting the swarm catching option). However the equipment is still usable and after the first try you will have some drawn comb which makes it easier the second time. Once you succeed in overwintering a hive than you can make increases with splits to offset your loses. It is a juggling match to stay at three hives but if that is as far as you want to go because you have no interest in sales then go for it. Starting with two hives is less risky but more costly initially. Nothing wrong with starting with one hive in my book.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I started with 1 package in '09 and it was nothing but outgo until I came out of winter with 10 hives (from splitting) in '11. That year I started selling honey and the bees started paying their own way (including moderate expansion every year) plus a little.

You can make some money as a hobby beekeeper, but you have to make that a goal.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

gww said:


> jrg
> I don't even intend on trying to recoup the cost, I am trying to figure how many hives it would take to have a chance of enough living through the winter so I never have to spend another $150 on bees again but not so much that I become a buisness. For all I know, swarm trapping might be enough to take care of my meager needs. The 20 year beekeeper thinks I might do alright in our area. I will buy bees atleast once cause I need to get learning and I may not catch any swarms. I am mostly just trying to find the comon sence point to do about what you said I wanted to do.
> Thanks
> gww


Small numbers carry higher risk for total loss. But if you effectively manage mites and keep your bees well nourished you won't lose all of your hives every winter unless your yard has some kind of curse on it. If you don't do those two things you still won't lose all of your bees every winter - lots of them will die in the summer too.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jw



> You'll be astounded how many bee trees and swarms are around once you put your feelers out. Might even find yourself getting to the "no thanks" point pretty quickly.


I might not be that astounded as I am already put myself on the no thanks list, cause I haven't put my name on Craigs list or any other wide spread list cause of the drive to everywhere being about 60 miles. I also have a really small circle that I talk to very much. I intend to tell my brother to tell all his freinds that mushroom hunt (he is more popular then me though) to watch and then mom and dad. I will surly mention it to anybody I see but I may not see that many people. Last year in the fall, my wife had a couple of some kind of vine flower that the bees worked to death. I had a whole raise box of flowers and some sun flowers but the bees almost ignored them.

A couple years ago, my mom had a bunch of lavender and a million other plants and they where crazy there but not so much last year.

I guess the point to all that goobly gock that I just sprouted is, I know their are bees around here at least last year. I am hoping the scouts check out my traps.

beeman


> Between the honey sales, wax sales and removing bees from structures as a sideline business, we make a small profit every year. Of course most of the profit goes back into the business to sustain itself and for a vacation for the wife and I.


I worked with a guy from alabama that said his dad raised bees and used his bee money and took the whole family to florada every couple of years. This guy made good money and was as old as me.

My bad attitude is that I would send the kids to florida if I could stay home. Have I mentioned I really like where I live. I wish I had 5000 acres just like it.

Ace
Thanks for the good thoughts
gww


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