# Poaching swarms by traping/ beek respectiful



## Davidnewbeeboxbuilder

Is there a moral code about setting bait hives near another beeks yard but has landowner permission (diffrent landowner) beek a real donkey. Is all fair got away,yours when u catch it.or is ojust messed up. Im ganna run 3 traplines through town but i dont really want anybody to think im singling there swarms out. But the two i disfavor shaft new bee havers all year there the kind that messes up buy local tell me what u think


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## Harley Craig

im new to this whole bee thing, so I'm not completly up to speed on etiquette. IMO I would say that if you have permission to put a swarm trap on someone's property, you can't controll who's bees go into it.


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## odfrank

I will gladly give your the address of all of Charlie B's and BayHighlandsBees apiary sites. There is definitely nothing immoral about setting a big trapline around these two guys sites.


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## Nature Coast beek

My opinion...

Beekeeping INCLUDES SWARM MANAGEMENT. If you have permission to trap BEES on a particular piece of land and it's situated near an apiary, as long as you *stay on the land you have permission for*, what's the problem? The beekeeper tending the apiary should do his/her best to maintain their hives and makes splits if they want more stock. After all, trapping a swarm isn't like you're going into their hives, pulling frames and making splits. If anything, you're doing a public service by providing potential habitat that a swarm sees as favorable and saving that poor person down the road time and money from having to hire someone to do a removal or cutout.


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## sqkcrk

You can't poach something that doesn't belong to anyone. As long as you aren't on someone's property w/out their permission you aren't taking anything which really belongs to someone else. Which doesn't mean the beekeeper where the swarm came from will see it that way.

I saw a swarm trap across the road from the entrance to one of my yards. My first thought was "You sob." Then I thought, "Good for you. Good luck. Someone aught to get the bees I lose should any of my hives swarm."

If someone objects they should set up their own traps.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

It is better for beekeeping if bees that swarm end up in another beekeepers hive instead of in the siding of an occupied house.


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## shannonswyatt

I wouldn't put a wall of swarm traps on another beeks property line, but if catch one of there swarms it is fair game. Otherwise Odfrank would be bee-less. 

I think that you are better off putting swarm traps in good places for bees to scout versus near another apiary. If the beek is on top of his hives they may not have many swarms, but if you have your bait hives in good locations for bees you may get feral swarms or swarms from hives that you didn't know existed.


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## wadehump

I set traps around my outyard to catch my own swarms


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## Bsweet

Go for it , as long you have the right of way to set your traps then there ain't nothing wrong . Jim


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## Adam Foster Collins

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> It is better for beekeeping if bees that swarm end up in another beekeepers hive instead of in the siding of an occupied house.


Good point. I've always thought there should be no big deal in placing swarm traps near another guy's yard. They're not actually a 'trap', and they don't cause bees to swarm, so what's the harm? If the bees aren't swarming, then a trap is not going to make a difference. And as you say, better in the hands of a beekeeper, than on the property of someone with an allergy - or a tendency to scream for new legislation banning beekeeping.


Adam


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## bbrowncods

What if your the Beek and you see a swarm leave one of your hives and you follow it in order to catch it, and it goes into someone elses trap?


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## Charlie B

One of the most exciting parts of beekeeping is catching swarms from someone elses hives and then bragging about it!


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## sqkcrk

bbrowncods said:


> What if your the Beek and you see a swarm leave one of your hives and you follow it in order to catch it, and it goes into someone elses trap?


Possesion establishes ownership. Once your bees leave your possesion you no longer own them, so if they go into someone elses trap they belong to the person whose trap they enter.

Who owns the swarm that hangs 40 feet off the ground from the branch of a tree? Those bees belong to the Universe, imo.


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## bbrowncods

sqkcrk said:


> Possesion establishes ownership. Once your bees leave your possesion you no longer own them, so if they go into someone elses trap they belong to the person whose trap they enter.
> 
> Who owns the swarm that hangs 40 feet off the ground from the branch of a tree? Those bees belong to the Universe, imo.


Not sure my neighbors would take that view if a swarm of mine decided to take up residence in their wall. I think they would come'a knock'in...


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## sqkcrk

I understand what you write. 

As an Apiary Inspector, whenever we found an Apiary to be abandoned by its registered beekeeper the point of view of thge Dept. was that the bees and equipment then belonged to the landowner. Who else would one see as thge owner of something on someones property?

As a beekeeper, my point of view, if a swarm takes up residence in the wall of someone's house, is that those bees are theirs. It may be assumed that they came from my hives and, as a good neighbor, I would help get them out of their wall. But, I am not legally responsible for those bees.

Bees being wild untamed animals will go wherever they will. It is my responsibility to minimize their swarming so as to not lose production and also to not have negative impact on my neighbors, whatever that might be.

"they would come a knock'in..."? Hopefully not like my Son did in Iraq.


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## BeeGhost

Great points here, and I agree, swarms are fair game for everyone. Heck I would be happy if someone trapped a swarm from my hives, better it goes to someone who will use them rather than going into someone's wall only to be killed by the owner or a pest control company.


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## Davidnewbeeboxbuilder

Thanks for the info guys im ganna put them at places ive caught swsrms previous years ive been meaning to do this long time but never had time. This year im ganna put out over 30 some people that hust let theres.swarm let me putem in there yards and some people found out how many swams me and my mentor/buddy collected and they wanna shoot me.lol


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## Charlie B

BeeGhost said:


> Great points here, and I agree, swarms are fair game for everyone. Heck I would be happy if someone trapped a swarm from my hives, better it goes to someone who will use them rather than going into someone's wall only to be killed by the owner or a pest control company.


Swarm trap party at BG's yard!:wiener:


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## shannonswyatt

I'm just finishing up my swarm traps as well. I plan on putting out 16 traps out and about and leaving two in my yard just in case.


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## whiskers

Mark- I celebrate your sons service and hope he returned intact in body and mind.
Bill


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## BeeGhost

Charlie B said:


> Swarm trap party at BG's yard!:wiener:


You dirty dog! Just for that I'm gonna break all my hives down to two frame nucs, you can have all the tennis ball sized swarms you want from them!LOL

I wanted to make it out to Ollie's house today but had things come up, need to get out there and pick his brain like field workers in an asparagus field! 

How many of your hives swarmed this year that you know of? I only had two that I know of, one small swarm and one biggun! Just an absolutely crazy year for swarms everywhere though, hoping next year will be the same! Gonna saturate Livermore and areas around Tracy, Manteca and see what happens! Can't wait for some bee fishing!


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## Charlie B

BG,

I've had several swarm, I think two or three that I'm aware of. I worked hard this spring to keep the brood nest open depriving Olly of any possible victory. Let me know when you go to Olly's, I'll meet you there. I want to make a video of our visit and post it on Beesource.


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## bees1st

I know the original post was about trapping swarms, but I just wanted to say that Maine's law states that it is unlawful to enter onto a persons land to remove swarms without the permission of the land owner. I take that to mean that you could go into someones bee yard to catch swarms with permission . I actually pulled into one of my yards this spring to find someone in the process of catching a swarm. I was ripped. But I ended up letting him have it ,I just told him don't come back .


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## sqkcrk

Not on your own property I assume? I'd be ripped too. I'd feel as though those were my bees. Had they gone off property I wouldn't feel the same. Not a nice experience I imagine.


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## bees1st

No they were hives on low bush blueberry pollination, sitting quite close to a back road. I was by earlier in the day and saw them but didn't have an extra box to put them in, by the time I got back.....well you know how it ends .


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## coopermaple

bees1st, What is your thought on a landowner catching swarms from rented hives pollenating his blueberries? My first thought when I heard about it was it didn't seem quite right, but when the commercial hives left they left several swarms in the bushes right in front of the hives. At that point I thought the land owner was in the right and at least some of those swarms were saved.


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## sqkcrk

I have had an orchard owner catch swarms and give them to me. Other times he has kept them. Neither case bothers me.


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## BeeGhost

Question. Who would legally own a swarm that took off from a contracted pollinator onto his leases land? Is it the land owners swarm because its on his land, or is it still considered the pollinators bees?

Just curious!


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## Lburou

whiskers said:


> Mark- I celebrate your sons service and hope he returned intact in body and mind.
> Bill


Me too!

Possession is nine points of the law, no real moral entanglements.


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## sqkcrk

whiskers said:


> Mark- I celebrate your sons service and hope he returned intact in body and mind.
> Bill


Thanks Bill. Didn't see this until now. He has a new leg half way down his calf muscle, but other than the time spent in Walter Reed his injurys have not slowed him down. He still serves. He wants to do more, if those in charge will let him. He continues to prove himself. I am as proud as I can be. Thank you for celebrating his service. He has been a good beekeeper laborer at one time too, years ago when he was young.

Thanks Lee.


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## bees1st

Coopermaple, Sometimes these bigger operations pick up their hives when there is flight. Those bees left behind may not be swarms ! Down East alot of pollination is done by bees which are sent up,and spread by the blueberry company. The beekeeper may or may not come to Maine at all. Some days it's not unusal to see 50 swarms while driving around.Some bees in the mid coast are spread be the beekeeper and when their down the head home only to return when the bloom is finished.They have no intention of catching swarms.


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## hagane

Sorry guys, but you need to rethink this. It isn't my intention to offend you, but most of your arguments are what cattle rustlers and cattle theft people used on their neighbors back in the day. Well if it's really your cow, how did it get out of the corral? I don't see your brand on this cow, so it's mine now. People do that with cows, dogs, chickens and it IS theft. 

There's no reason it should be any different because its bees when every other kind of animal it would be considered theft.

There's also the thought that people ARE fragile creatures. If you take away a man's horse or cow, he can really suffer from it. Even if we have technology around, we can still suffer.


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## sqkcrk

So, hagane, if you don't see a swarm issue from your own hive leave it alone?


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## ChuckReburn

hagane said:


> Sorry guys, but you need to rethink this. It isn't my intention to offend you, but most of your arguments are what cattle rustlers and cattle theft people used on their neighbors back in the day. Well if it's really your cow, how did it get out of the corral? I don't see your brand on this cow, so it's mine now. People do that with cows, dogs, chickens and it IS theft.
> 
> There's no reason it should be any different because its bees when every other kind of animal it would be considered theft.
> 
> There's also the thought that people ARE fragile creatures. If you take away a man's horse or cow, he can really suffer from it. Even if we have technology around, we can still suffer.


It's pretty clear in Texas (known for hanging cattle rustlers) that a swarm "belongs" to the landowner where they are sitting. We don't brand bees (just boxes). As long as you have permission from the landowner, go for it. 

I don't quite get the "suffering and technology" ?


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## shannonswyatt

So if I get a swarm I'm guilty of a crime? Or are you saying if I catch a swarm than anyone that has had a hive swarm can claim the swarm I've collected as theirs? Do I have some kind of legal posting requirement in that case?


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## Phoebee

This is a really old thread, exhumed today.

But I'll bite. We keep our bees in West Virginia. WV has a one page set of rules for good bee stewardship, and if you agree to abide by them you get substantial legal protection ... pretty much your neighbors can't complain about you. Bee schools teach these as the rules of good bee stewardship.

Nowhere in those rules is there anything about poaching swarms. However, there is a requirement that you at least attempt to practice good swarm management. They know swarms are what bees do, but swarms also bother the neighbors, which is frowned upon.

Our bee club has a swarm call hotline system. This is run as a public service, to catch all those swarms that bother the neighbors. Payment for swarm capture is free bees. And since we know pretty much all the beeks in the county, and swarms usually don't move very far, we have a pretty fair idea of which apiary they might have come from. 

I have yet to hear any club member complain and ask for their bees back. They know they should have managed for swarms better.


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