# Sustainable Apiary?



## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

For those of you that use Michael Palmer's Sustainable Apiary model, I have a few questions. He was a guest speaker at our bee clubs annual meeting/ trade show last weekend. His model is very interesting and I do agree with most of what he says as well as his ideas on overwintering 4 over 4 frame nucleus colonies. My first question is can this be done effectively with 5 frame Nucs instead of 4 frame Nucs. Since I have so many empty 5 frame Nucs, I could make a custom telescoping cover or use my existing migratory covers. Would this be ok to start? 
If I were to do this and not use a divided deep on the bottom can I just use two Nuc bottom boards and have the entrances facing opposite directions? What is the reasoning behind the 4 frame Nucs besides the fact that they fit flush side by side on a 10 frame deep?
Thanks for any suggestions


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

I had made a bunch of 5 frame nucs prior to deciding to try this also. Since I make all of my own boxes, I just made a custom bottom box to fit under the two 5 frame nucs. This requires a custom bottom board and cover. This way I can use my 5 frame nucs.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Could I do 5 over 5 with just Nuc boxes instead of making a separate bottom box and bottom board? What kind of feeders are you using inside?


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

I use a 1 gallon frame feeder from Mann Lake. The idea of the double nuc is they can share heat so I would assume that you should push the 5 over 5 together.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

That's what my plan was. Put them tight up against each other and wrap them together for the winter.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I use separate landing bottom boards. To make it easy to shake them out when I move them to 10 frame equipment. I use plumber tape and screw the bottoms on.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I think he uses deep nucs and not medium nucs and his bottom boxes are 10 frame boxes. If you use 3/4 inch boards to build your Nuc's and build them so 2 "nuc box supers" will fit on the standard 10 frame bottom box, you just can't get 5 frames in the Nuc supers-- hence the 4 frame set up for the upper boxes.

I have used the system with medium boxes and 4 frames per box stacked 4 over 4 and it worked fine. 

My preferred method now is to use 5 frame Nuc's and stack 5 over 5, push two of them close together (side by side and each 2 to 3 nucs sized boxes high) and simply build a larger telescoping cover that will cover the 2 Nuc boxes that are next to each other. 

This helps somewhat standardize my equipment -- that is, all my Nuc boxes are the same size.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> Could I do 5 over 5 with just Nuc boxes instead of making a separate bottom box and bottom board? What kind of feeders are you using inside?


A 5 over 5 will need its own bottom board and cover. I have some 4 frame deep nucs I built that both fit on a ten frame bottom board but it has to be modified to give them each their own entrance. just made a bunch of 5 frame deep nuc boxes. About ten bucks a piece using 32 dollar plywood. For winter feeding you should only now be using dry sugar or sugar bricks. 2:1 up to a couple weeks ago but now it will be too much moisture in the nucs. I made my own quilt boxes as well. made them 8 inches tall with 4 inches of wood shavings supported by canvas and about a 3 inch space below that I stacked 2 layers of sugar bricks on. so they sit right ontop of the frames.


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## jeremyk45 (May 23, 2013)

I ran 5 of the Mike Palmer style NUC's from Brushy Mountain (resource hive) this year. All are going into winter in extraordinary shape. I find the big advantage to the common bottom board and bottom box to be the fact that they are much sturdier on a hive stand. I have put two five frame NUC's side by side before but they were more apt to tip if bumped into. These are definitely sturdier on the common bottom board. I picked up another 20 of these when they were on sale a few months ago. I will now run 25 for a total of 50 colonies in them for my brood and expansion needs.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Cuttingedgelandinc,


I too have been inspired by Michael Palmer's sustainable apiary model and am trying more or less to follow his pattern. I believe that MP has gone to 4 frame Nuc's partly because with standard dimension lumber it is easy, partly because he wants to have two Nuc's together side by side on a single 10 frame Langstroth bottom board, and partly because he has found that for his "end use" four frames of bees is adequate and it reduces the amount of woodenware required per colony.

My apiary is predominantly medium depth equipment and I make most of my woodenware. If you make your own woodenware it is very easy to make the front and rear end panels of a Nuc out of 1X material (3/4 ") (rabbet the frame ledge) and the side panels out of 1/4" plywood. ( Five frames fit snugly, and it is not a permanent arrangement.) Glue and staple it all joints and it is very strong. The advantage of this is that two nuc's can sit adjacent to each other on individually attached bottom boards, or on top of a 10 frame Lang (divided queen castle) in your apiary. I frequently do double or triple high five framers this way, and I don't mind making additional frames to fill the boxes. I just finished making another dozen the other day and I'll put bottoms on some as the need arises.

Here is a picture of four Nuc's ready to be packed for winter. The upper most box contains a quart feed bottle of 2:1 syrup, pollen patties, and sugar bricks. Last night's snow got to me before I got them wrapped. Ignore the electric bear fence in the foreground.









I don't necessary build stuff by the rules, I build it so it works, and there is a lot of off the wall stuff in my apiary.

Steve


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I also follow MP's principles, and love the video lectures he has put out. I have settled on 5 over 5's as my standard overwintering unit and prefer groups of 4. Here is a video showing my overwintering set-up. I use a piece of 2 inch styrofoam as an outer cover and a feed bag inner cover (FBIC) to stop the bees chewing on the styrofoam.
This year I have made some large outer covers out of 1x4 and plywood sized to fit over a group of 4 nucs as last year I had a couple of nucs that mice ate their way in through the top overwinter. I have sized the outer covers so as they will go over the top of the styrofoam.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MatoOA9TapA


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> My first question is can this be done effectively with 5 frame Nucs instead of 4 frame Nucs. Since I have so many empty 5 frame Nucs, I could make a custom telescoping cover or use my existing migratory covers. Would this be ok to start?


I think your questions have been answered by those posting their experiences. Thanks to everyone. I've been too exhausted lately to write. Finished wrapping yesterday and will finish picking up the mating yard today, stacking the empty hive stands...I moved the mating nucs to their wintering yards a month ago. I need a break!

Anyway, I have a question for you all. I've been at this nuc wintering business for years. Began speaking about it in 2006 or so...can't really remember the years. I think Massachusetts was the first presentation...I didn't even know how to write a PowerPoint. By 2011 I was using that program, and the Title, "The Sustainable Apiary". The PWC Bee Club posted it to Vimeo. I also began putting it down on paper with the intention of publishing. In 2013, the National Honey Show in Surrey, England, published my presentation, and it has been viewed some 80,000 times. 

As I travel from meeting to meeting, I can feel the excitement people have, and it's contagious. I feel it and get inspired from you all. When a group puts together a workshop program, and their members take off like jets, and never look back...well, that's why I do it. The Maine meeting last weekend was great. Maybe I got a little carried away with my excitement, and some of the things I said might not have been the best choice of words, but that's me, and I think folks understand.

This coming weekend is the SNEBA meeting in Connecticut. I spoke there last at their inaugural meeting years ago...can't remember the year. I've changed my presentation a little for these last two meetings, taking out some of the slides involved with trying to convince beekeepers to make their own bees. I don't think I have to convince anyone, anymore. I've concentrated a bit more on how I use those wintered nucs in my apiary. When I agreed to speak, I told the organizer/founder the name of my newer presentation...Brood Factories and Bee Bombs. 

The other day, he sent me the meeting agenda. First presentation on the list...The Sustainable Apiary. Oh, I replied that the two presentations were really about the same and I didn't think I should do both...I never saw who was presenting. He wrote me back that HIS presentation was titled..._The Sustainable Apiary_. Oh really? Really!

So, what would you all do? I feel like he's usurping my work. Searching the internet, I see he's been using the title since March of this year. Now, I haven't seen the presentation, but even using the title is copyright infringement...in my opinion, and according to the government copyright office. Once you publish a program online, it is automatically copyrighted. I could confront him, object when he starts his presentation, or even walk out. That's not me and I won't walk because I know people are attending to hear what I have to say. 

Should I say something? Would you?


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## johnbeejohn (Jun 30, 2013)

may be u hold ur self to high up and this other guy never heard of you and will think u stole from him haha just joking 

i think you should be flattered for me and prolly thee other presenter you have changed the way i look at things its really crazy how much i catch my self spaced out thinking of how to get that next little advantage based off of what i just read that you wrote

i wouldnt change what you are doing at the presentation have a feeling most of the people came there to see you!

last you sound very busy take a break every now and then!!!!!!


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I'd say something Mike, but leave it at a statement of facts - like "I started using the title "The Sustainable Apiary" in 2011" (or whenever). If the speaker is a decent person, they'll say, "me bad" and change their title. Depending how things turn out, you may have to escalate. What's it worth to you (in terms of grief)?


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## PaulT (Sep 2, 2015)

Print a dated copy of your presentation, wrap it up and give it to him as a gift. Then continue on with your own presentation.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

The word "sustainable" is unsustainable!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Suggest to him that he should change his talk title to "My Sustainable Apiary". Glad I am not in your shoes.

Or when the talk is announced, walk up to the mic and start giving your talk. Nah, probably not.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

peterloringborst said:


> The word "sustainable" is unsustainable!


I disagree. The word "sustainable" is sustainable. Its frequency of use may not be sustainable. Its meaning may not be sustainable. But the word will continue. Far more longer than anything we talk about being sustainable these days.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> I think your questions have been answered by those posting their experiences. Thanks to everyone. I've been too exhausted lately to write. Finished wrapping yesterday and will finish picking up the mating yard today, stacking the empty hive stands...I moved the mating nucs to their wintering yards a month ago. I need a break!
> 
> Anyway, I have a question for you all. I've been at this nuc wintering business for years. Began speaking about it in 2006 or so...can't really remember the years. I think Massachusetts was the first presentation...I didn't even know how to write a PowerPoint. By 2011 I was using that program, and the Title, "The Sustainable Apiary". The PWC Bee Club posted it to Vimeo. I also began putting it down on paper with the intention of publishing. In 2013, the National Honey Show in Surrey, England, published my presentation, and it has been viewed some 80,000 times.
> 
> ...


Michael,
First, I don't think that you got carried away with your excitement last weekend at all. This is what the industry needs. You are very respected by those that know you or of you. I appreciate the excitement that you have and believe me, that gets passed on to those that listen to your lectures. When you present things this way, it resonates with those in attendance. Second, when you have time, please let me know if this model can be achieved using 5 over 5 frame Nucs stacked up against each other or if I have to use 4 over 4? I would like to maintain as much consistency with equipment as I can and like mentioned, I have a lot of deep 5 frame nucs complete with bottom boards, inner covers as well as telescopic and migratory covers. Third, I would go back as far as you can into your lectures or your printed material and find the earliest printed version of your "Sustainable Apiary". I would present a copy of this to the other speaker as well as convey to him that you have been using this term since 2006 in your lectures as well as on the Internet through video lectures. See what his demeaner is when presented with this. That should give you a good idea of how to proceed. He may tell you that he is sorry for infringing on your work or he may become defensive. If the later, I would walk away and refuse to speak at that conference again until he is taken off if the list of speakers. People are paying to hear you and you know that. 
In closing, thank you for what you have done to spread your knowledge. It means a tremendous amount to many, myself and my bees included.

Jason


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

If it were me it would depend upon the nature of the lecture. "Sustainability" is a buzz word in itself and I suspect it is often used to get the attention of the hipster/organic crowd. I like Andrew's response.
I believe these are exciting times to be a beekeeper. Despite the honeybee and beekeeping methods being studied for eons there is still much to be discovered and I remain excited by nucing and broodbreaking. Being a pioneer and evangelist in these methods has cemented your place in beekeeping's "Walk of Fame" and noone is going to be able to take that credit from you. Ethically, anyone aping parts of your method is obligating to reference you and give you credit - I do.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Mike, the title will not constitute copyright infringment...it's too short and descriptive. It might be (or have beem) possible to treat it like a trademark, but there isn't enough money at stake to bother (in my opinion).

If he is using your photos, text, or copy without permission and without credit that is a different story all together.

9ne year we had Paul Arnold at out conference. We asked him for one of his talks to cover plant/microbe relationships (which is his area of academic expertise).

My jaw hit the floor when his title slide went up..."No Plant is an Island"....Ramona and I did a project years ago we called "No Bee is an Island". ...both were about microbial relationships and used the same turn of phrase to describe that....but his both predated ours, and wasn't published....we came up with the same title indepndantly.

I've read things that sound very much like someone barely paraphrasing me amd found the book predated my writing....and ive had people use my copy to market a product that I think has no merit (Stong Microbials).

I would think that someone hiring you to speak would have some respect for you and what you are bringing to the table....and would care how you feel about the situation.

One thing is for sure, if you don't address it head on, you are very unlikely to be happy with the outcome, even if everyone involved has the best intentions.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Gotten a little too serious? Think on these things!

NFL holds a trademark on the phrase "Super Bowl," and each year, their lawyers send out thousands of pre-emptive letters to advertisers, media outlets and even small businesses in the host city reminding them of what can and cannot be said, which are usually followed by at least a further 100 cease-and-desist letters for those who didn't get the message the first time. 

"We take these issues very seriously and aren't afraid to pursue infringements vigorously," says Anastasia Danias, the NFL's vp of intellectual property. 

Perhaps the most absurd tale of copyright infringement has finally been put behind us. Thought by many to be a practical joke, the all-too-ubiquitous "Happy Birthday Song" has, in fact, been protected under law, making pretty much all of us law-breakers -- that is, until recently. 

However, they have finally lost the lawsuit*filed against them over what can now be considered "fallacious restrictions" against the reappearance of lyrics that Warner/Chappell may never have owned to begin with, making the "Happy Birthday Song" a public domain staple once again.

The "Happy Birthday Song's" public domain "formal entrance" will likely not change the routines for any birthday celebrators anywhere, but it does do much to dispel the notion that a company can hold onto certain intellectual property without a truly clear claim to such rights.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Now, I haven't seen the presentation, but even using the title is copyright infringement...in my opinion, and according to the government copyright office.


While copyright may protect the _body_ of a work, _titles_ cannot be copyrighted per the US Copyright Office:



> Copyright law does not protect names, titles, or short phrases or expressions. Even if a name, title, or short phrase is novel or distinctive or lends itself to a play on words, it cannot be protected by copyright. The U.S. Copyright Office cannot register claims to exclusive rights in brief combinations of words such as ....
> 
> _See the rest here:
> _http://copyright.gov/circs/circ34.pdf


.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> I disagree. The word "sustainable" is sustainable. Its frequency of use may not be sustainable. Its meaning may not be sustainable.


Sure, meanings change over time. But if the meaning changes for you and not for me, we are no longer talking about the same thing. For example:



> Sustainability: Higher Education's New Fundamentalism
> 
> • U.S. students can earn credentials in sustainability in 1,438 distinct college programs. Sometimes certificates are issued, but doctoral degrees are also available.
> 
> ...


Now, is that sustainable? ;-)


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Sustainability is certainly one of the new buzz words. For me it brings to mind Morgan Freeman's lecture to the parole board in Shawshank Redemption about the meaning of the word rehabilitated.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

MTCW:
Given the time and energy you have put into developing your method, and more importantly sharing it, I don't see how it would be possible to avoid a conversation about his use of a title that nearly every beekeeper up here associates with you. 
This guy should have used better judgement, and knows better. At the very least it's poor taste.
Not a good vibe and I'd get my ducks in a row if you have any intention of taking the sustainable apiary concept to another level.

Clearly others also have methods /models of sustainable apiaries and it's easy to title a program "My sustainable apiary" so it clear who methods are being discussed and eliminate the confusion, or coat tail riding if that's the case.
Your model could be named "The Mike Palmer Sustainable Apiary Model" and then you'd be taking control.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Or you could start calling your lectures "Michael Palmers The Sustainable Apiary" 
People know who you are and pay you to speak. I also have a strong suspicion that whomever it is that is infringing on your work is either a member here or knows someone that is a member here. Word tavels fast. That person will be outed soon enough and will have to defend himself in this forum.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

It's publicly displayed on the website, no secret.
The presenter is Larry Conner.
http://www.sneba.com/program.htm


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

In my opinion, and certainly on this web site, Michael Palmer's name is forever associated with "The Sustainable Apiary" . His methodology is the gold standard and his lectures and comments are carefully listened to and carefully read. He is also highly regarded and I think he is in very limited group of that higher eschelon (sp?) of beekeeper. When Michael Palmer talks, we all listen.

Because he is held in very high regard and has an excellent reputation,I would suggest that he takes the high road. If I was him, I would say something to the individual in question but in a light and perhaps humorous manner but then let it drop. Again, stay on the high road. Getting in a dust up over this is detrimental in the long run. 

Perhaps the other speaker will preface his lecture by saying something like: "... my lecture is based upon what I learned from Michael Palmer..."

I don't care who writes or speaks about a sustainable apiary - it will always be compared to the Michael Palmer techniques


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Mr. Palmer in beekeeping circles and in my opinion currently represents the very best beekeeping currently has to offer in terms of a common sense blueprint for a successful (and sustainable) beekeeping plan. More accurately what he is doing is self sustainable. My previous post wasn't to poke fun at what he stands for but rather that the word "sustainable" is getting to mean lots of different things to lots of different people.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

clyderoad said:


> It's publicly displayed on the website, no secret.
> The presenter is Larry Conner.
> http://www.sneba.com/program.htm


Larry has been around since before most of you were born. He is an extremely knowledgeable individual and has done a mountain of good for beekeepers and beekeeping. And it's Connor. At least spell his name right.

But what is the quarrel about? People are going to see Mike Palmer, they are going to see Larry Connor. If some schmo puts up a sign and says "Sustainable Beekeeping" do you think people will pay to hear him talk if they don't know who he or she even is? 

Everybody is talking about sustainable beekeeping these days, I have done two presentations on that topic this year. I don't call it that, because the term is as tired and worn out as an old bee smoker.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

What was wrong with the title he had before?
"Fundamentals of Sustainable Beekeeping"
http://www.ohiostatebeekeepers.org/event/dr-larry-connor-fundamentals-of-sustainable-beekeeping/

What I don't understand is why Larry isn't calling it "Sustainable Beekeeping Essentials".


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

clyderoad said:


> The presenter is Larry Conner.


I agree with others to take the high road, whatever that looks like for you. However, knowing this is coming from another recognized figure in the world of beekeeping makes it sting all the more. A very unprofessional move on his part and on the part of the organizers. Everyone involved should want to resolve this before the weekend.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Maybe ,Mr Palmer, the next time you share the podium with him you could title your talk "Increase Essentials"
I'm SURE the audience and MR. X WOULD notice..I applaud your work and also own a couple of his books 

=McBee7==


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> It's publicly displayed on the website, no secret.
> The presenter is Larry Conner.
> http://www.sneba.com/program.htm


Well, I would think that Michael could talk to Larry and sort things out.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Well, this is a different situation than if it was the local bee club president.

Mike, I seem to recall making a joke about this to you some years ago... my recollection is that your attitude was you were happy to see knowledge spread.

Here is an article from 2013 on the topic in ABJ:http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/American_Bee_Journal/ABJ2013-11.pdf

My general thoughts would be if it was a local beeclub president (not a publishing professional) I'd be flattered. A writer/publisher has some different standards....but there is also an aspect of journalism at work....no one can write dozens and dozens of articles and books about bees and not get ideas from somewhere outside themselves. ..one writer is currently soliciting discussion specifically to write an article (not a criticism, just an observation).

On the other hand, I always try to give credit ...especially for the most clever ideas, analogies, and anecdotes. I've learned alot from Mike, and I think it is important to give acknowledgment where it is due. Sometimes I've gotten the feeling that this isn't appreciated. .it is seen as an attempt to attach to another's credibility and /or to name drop.

I don't always know what to give credit for and how....and given the fact that Larry's been published in ABJ on the subject 2 years ago means this isn't a new situation.

Again, I would give him a call and talk to him....you'd rather not drive down than have an Unresolvable issue when you get there.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

---For what its worth---
I see the event was sponsored by WicWas press.
BUT--You are listed as the Headline speaked 
http://www.sneba.com/index.htm

Careful where you tread,,,Maybe he can publish your BOOK-hint,hint,

==McBee77==


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

deknow:


> Mike, I seem to recall making a joke about this to you some years ago... my recollection is that your attitude was you were happy to see knowledge spread.


Exactly! The whole idea of Me Getting Mine and Keeping It is antithetical to giving talks and workshops. When I talk about "sustainable beekeeping" I talk about sustaining beekeeping as a way of life, of sustaining the beekeeping industry, the package producers, the bee supply companies, and yes -- the writers, presenters, teachers and mentors. 

It is all worthwhile and part of the whole activity of preserving the environment which includes pollinators, fruit, and consumers. I don't single out any way as wrong -- some may be clumsy and awkward, not really very smart, but as long as people keep bees responsibly (not making a nuisance for other beekeepers or their non-beekeeper neighbors) -- have at it.

Recent research from Europe show a direct link between the fall of colony numbers and the decline in the number of beekeepers, at least in Europe. Old people are retiring and fewer young people are taking it up. Reach out to them and teach the many different ways of keeping bees alive. See: Potts, Simon G., et al. "Declines of managed honey bees and beekeepers in Europe." Journal of Apicultural Research 49.1 (2010): 15-22.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...I want to be clear. Without a doubt Mike has done an extrodinary job over the long haul of developing, refining, perfecting, and especially sharing.

He has used the term sustainable apiary Wrt to a specific method that includes intensive nuc cultivation and overwintering nucs.

Every time I've heard him speak he has credited his mentors and model, and has a rare gift of being direct, specific, and practical in how he communicates his experience and opinions.

I'm not clear on the timing of when the term sustainable apiary or sustainable beekeeping were being used by whom, and if one has been using a term in talks and writings for years, it might not make sense that someone else wants to claim ownership.

It would be difficult to write an article about checkerboardING (as Walt describes it, not alternating brood frames or something) and not mention Walt and give him credit.

I see the modern over wintering nucs in the north trend to be a vermont wintering technique that Mike has systemized, integrated into a queen/nuc/honey business (successful by any standard as far as I'm aware), and aggressively has shared his knowledge....not to get paid for speaking gigs....but to help beekeepers help themsleves.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Barry said:


> I agree with others to take the high road, whatever that looks like for you. However, knowing this is coming from another recognized figure in the world of beekeeping makes it sting all the more.


And the fact that I've known him for 30+ years. High road it is...


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Right, credit given where credit is due. Brother Adam perfected overwintering nucs in his region decades ago 



> Brother Adam used overwintered nucleus colonies as his basis of comparison before putting queens into production colonies. This is a two-step evaluation requiring years of careful observations. The queen was kept in a small nucleus from mid-summer to spring and evaluated there.The second year the colonies were in full-sized colonies and evaluated for mite resistance, productivity, and general characteristics. Brother Adam’s approach was borne, in part, out of limited economics. How does a small bee breeder with finite resources test a large number of queens? Brother Adam found that the overwintered nucleus was an ideal answer.


Larry Connor October 2008 BEE CULTURE


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

I see no real issue here other than the sequence of speakers determined by the organizer of the event. Having Mike follow another speaker regardless if it MR. ConnOr or someone else who is speaking on a topic that will be covered in detail by the following speaker is at the very least bad organization. It should be up to the organizer to correct this situation in a professional manner to the satisfaction of the invited guest speakers. 

"Larry has been around before most of you were born"...now there's a dumb statement if I ever heard one..


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

The organizer is the other speaker.



> When I agreed to speak, I told the organizer/founder the name of my newer presentation...Brood Factories and Bee Bombs.
> 
> The other day, he sent me the meeting agenda. First presentation on the list...The Sustainable Apiary. Oh, I replied that the two presentations were really about the same and I didn't think I should do both...I never saw who was presenting. He wrote me back that HIS presentation was titled...The Sustainable Apiary. Oh really? Really!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Mike, I you spoke on this topic in Nebraska which was certainly before our conference.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> And the fact that I've known him for 30+ years. High road it is...


way to go michael. 

remember, 'imitation is the highest form of flattery', or something like that.

i'll join in with the others in recognizing that it was _you_ who inspired me to incorporate nuc production into my operation. many thanks.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> "Larry has been around before most of you were born"...now there's a dumb statement if I ever heard one..


I just meant he is entitled to some respect having been working and caring about bees for a very long time. He got his Masters in 1969, studying "Honeybee pollination requirements of hybrid cucumbers." In 1974, he wrote "Honeybees and you" for the Ohio State University. Cooperative Extension Service. (Extension bulletin 585)


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

But we're not talking about general respect in this thread. Specifics were stated and that is where the issues are.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm sure that this issue can and will be resolved (hopefully by establishing a new written agenda) and posting it before the event. Having read many informative posts by Mike Palmer on this site he hardly strikes me as the type of individual to want to make waves publicly or professionally. I also commend him for bringing something like this up for a general discussion, as it definitely shows a great deal of humility on his part in getting opinions towards resolution.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

So can I do it in a 5 over 5 frame configuration?


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

"So can I do it in a 5 over 5 frame configuration? "..

Yes of course you can and good luck..


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I dunno....if someone felt slighted by me, I'd hope they would call me rather than ask a public forum how to react.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> I dunno....if someone felt slighted by me, I'd hope they would call me rather than ask a public forum how to react.



But we're not talking about general respect in this thread


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I see Peter is still up to his old tricks throwing quotes around to suit himself!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I was referring specifically to this:


> I also commend him for bringing something like this up for a general discussion, as it definitely shows a great deal of humility on his part in getting opinions towards resolution.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I guess I'll say what I mean.

There is nothing humble or "high road" about complaining about someone in public, deciding not to say anything to them, and (presumably) harbor resentment.

If the slight was unintentional or a misunderstanding, this leads to a terrible outcome.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> So can I do it in a 5 over 5 frame configuration?


The specifics of overwintering nucs are very local. Wintering singles is quite common, a 5 over 5 frame nuc is less a nuc and more just a single colony is it not?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

zhiv9 said:


> The specifics of overwintering nucs are very local. Wintering singles is quite common, a 5 over 5 frame nuc is less a nuc and more just a single colony is it not?


I have 5 over 5 over 5s. I call them nucs. They are just narrow (pretty much) full size colonies.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> I have 5 over 5 over 5s. I call them nucs. They are just narrow (pretty much) full size colonies.


What do you use for outer covers if they are stacked together? Are migratory covers sufficient? Do you wrap these and if so do you put them up against each other?


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

OP, 5 over 5 with two bottom boards and one facing the other way is two seperate five frame nucs. The 4 over 4 is, two seperate colonies, but both have 8 frame to overwinter in, instead of 5. I have asked similar questions and Mike, responded, "use what you have". I have stacked d.Coates boxes.

I also make my own equipment and when I made my telescoping covers, I made them fit over two nucs that sit side by side.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> What do you use for outer covers if they are stacked together? Are migratory covers sufficient? Do you wrap these and if so do you put them up against each other?


My phone is being a sack of garbage... I'll have to post a couple of pictures later.

I only have a few and this is my first winter with them... so my opinions should be taken at that level. I have on side car'd up against a full size hive so it's on the downwind side of it most protected from NW winds. The others I have smashed up against each other. I haven't put the roofing felt on yet, but I will in the next couple days. They just have plywood tops, but will have 3" shims then their plywood tops and a 2" piece of foam insulation on top.

There the phone finally kicked into gear...





The wrapping on the big one with nuc sidecar'd needs a little work... I forgot to bring a telecover for it, so when I do it will all get tucked into that. And the side-by-side nucs will have a single foam piece on top to prevent water/snow dripping down between them. Then they'll be wrapped as a unit to keep all that off of them.

Like these:


2" foam sits inside the telecover on these and then I weight the snot out of them so they can't just blow off. Most of my hives are well sheltered though.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> I guess I'll say what I mean.
> 
> There is nothing humble or "high road" about complaining about someone in public, deciding not to say anything to them, and (presumably) harbor resentment.
> 
> If the slight was unintentional or a misunderstanding, this leads to a terrible outcome.


Knowing Larry as I do, not as well as others, but somewhat, he knows my name anyway, I imagine this is water off a duck's back to him. Nothing he hasn't been through before. And as I wrote earlier, the two of them can work this out quite well. 

I can imagine there is anyone as prominent in the Beekeeping World as Dr. Larry Connor that I have known longer than Michael, but I did meet Larry at EAS 1984, in Wmsbg, VA. So maybe Michael and I have know him just as long. Michael probably knows Larry better, since I haven't been to hardly more than one other EAS in the last 30 years.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

peterloringborst said:


> Larry has been around since before most of you were born. He is an extremely knowledgeable individual and has done a mountain of good for beekeepers and beekeeping. And it's Connor. At least spell his name right.
> 
> But what is the quarrel about? People are going to see Mike Palmer, they are going to see Larry Connor. If some schmo puts up a sign and says "Sustainable Beekeeping" do you think people will pay to hear him talk if they don't know who he or she even is?
> 
> Everybody is talking about sustainable beekeeping these days, I have done two presentations on that topic this year. I don't call it that, because the term is as tired and worn out as an old bee smoker.


Emmm. Thanks for pointing out my spelling error. Connor. 

Surprised at the naivety in the rest of the post.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

deknow said:


> There is nothing humble or "high road" about complaining about someone in public, deciding not to say anything to them, and (presumably) harbor resentment.


Dean and I have disagreed on many things over the years, but here we concur. This is not the way to address grievances. My chief intent was to stick up for Larry, as he has devoted his life to bee research, publishing and teaching. I also know Mike Palmer and I believe he is an man of outstanding character, so none of what I said was intended to reflect negatively on him. 

The issue of copyrighting the term "sustainable apiary," on the other hand, is a bit of a stretch. In fact, the term "copyfraud" applies to misapplication of copyright claims. The Arthur Conan Doyle estate sued Leslie Klinger in 2013, stating he must pay for the use of the Sherlock Holmes character. He sued back, for copyfraud and won. The US Supreme Court ruled the characters and elements to be in the American public domain.

source: Nick Davies. "Sherlock Holmes will stay in public domain."


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

peterloringborst said:


> Right, credit given where credit is due. Brother Adam perfected overwintering nucs in his region decades ago


Actually Brother Columban wintered nuclei at Buckfast Abbey when Adam was but a kid, and still living with his parents in Germany. CC Miller was wintering nuclei in double nuc box configuration before 1891...as was AI Root. Thomas White Woodbury Esq. was wintering nuclei in Devon, same county as Buckfast, cut from skeps, in 1862. 

So, I'm not claiming to have invented the management. But, I did start using the title years ago, and he knows it. I didn't use Larry's name for a reason. I don't want to get in a fight with anyone. I've been friends with him for ages, and I don't believe he does anything unintentionally. I only asked for advice in handling the situation. I thank those that offered wisdom and encouragement. As far as turning this into something it isn't, I don't know what to say. That wasn't my intention. I apologize to cuttingedgelandinc for hijacking his thread.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Cutting edge, there are other good reasons for using individual nuc boxes whether they are 4 or 5 frames. One is ease of weighing. If they are discrete colonies it is quite easy to lift the individual colony onto a standard digital bathroom scale and see what it weighs without opening it or guessing. This is not as easy if the bottom box is a divided deep.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

Maybe he was kidding around when he put Sustainable Apiary as his topic. Calling your topic Increase Essentials like McBee mentioned had me smiling. 
Just a thought.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> Second, when you have time, please let me know if this model can be achieved using 5 over 5 frame Nucs stacked up against each other or if I have to use 4 over 4? I would like to maintain as much consistency with equipment as I can and like mentioned, I have a lot of deep 5 frame nucs complete with bottom boards, inner covers as well as telescopic and migratory covers.
> Jason


Jason,
Yes, I see no reason why 5 over 5 nucleus colonies wouldn't work in Maine. Yes, I might shove them together and face in opposite directions. As I say, use what you have and adapt.

Back in the 90s, when I started wintering nuclei, tracheal mites were an issue. Nucleus colonies didn't really have a problem, while production colonies did. I followed Webster's model of wintering in double 4 frame, single story nuc boxes above production colonies. Often, the production colony would perish in the winter, and the two nucs would survive. Sometimes both the production colony and one nucleus colony would perish, and one nuc would survive and thrive once spring hit. That made me wonder if the shared heat theory was actually all that important, and the principle reason for their survival. 

In 2009, I began wintering 4 over 4 double nucs...mainly so I didn't have to move the 4 frame doubles to wintering locations on production hives. The nucs obviously made winter clusters that were semi-circles with the divider between the two clusters. I wondered if it really was shared heat that led to success. So, I wintered a group of one 4 over 4 nuc in a double nuc box, to eliminate the shared heat effect. 

They wintered as well as the double 4 over 4 nucs. 

So, I wouldn't worry so much about this. Use what you have. Push them together, face them in opposite directions. wrap them as you would a production colony with insulation above and upper entrances. I don't see a problem with what you propose.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Two story and three story five frame nucs are used by some beekeepers to overWinter narrow tall hives so they can be used to produce more single story 5 frame nucs come the Spring time. Usually these "nucs" are kept on warehouse pallets, ten to a pallet. Without worry that the five that face one way and the five that face the other will be a problem for each other of the five facing the same direction.

I know beekeepers who manage many such "nucs" that they make into 3 to 5 new nucs in the Spring, depending on how many frames of brood there are and how many bees there are to keep that brood covered.

I imagine how this is done is not taht different from how Michael does what he does with his 4 over 4 overWintered nucs.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Jason,
> Yes, I see no reason why 5 over 5 nucleus colonies wouldn't work in Maine. Yes, I might shove them together and face in opposite directions. As I say, use what you have and adapt.
> 
> Back in the 90s, when I started wintering nuclei, tracheal mites were an issue. Nucleus colonies didn't really have a problem, while production colonies did. I followed Webster's model of wintering in double 4 frame, single story nuc boxes above production colonies. Often, the production colony would perish in the winter, and the two nucs would survive. Sometimes both the production colony and one nucleus colony would perish, and one nuc would survive and thrive once spring hit. That made me wonder if the shared heat theory was actually all that important, and the principle reason for their survival.
> ...


Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I am going to try using this system next year and am hoping for much success. It seems that Nucleus Colonies are in short supply up here so if I am somewhat successful at overwintering, I would like to take things a step further and possibly become a supplier of healthy Northern Nucs as well as some other ideas that I have.
I had every intention of asking you a few questions last weekend at our conference but unfortunately did not get the opportunity. I hope that next year if you attend, I can meet you personally and tell you of all the success that I have had using your system and how much it has impacted my apiary and business.

Jason


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Time to get your book done and published under "The Sustainable Apiary" while it's still available...

I think most people associate that title with you anyway, Mike. A quick Google search brings up enough Mike Palmer stuff to get people on the right track anyway.

Adam


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

MP,

I'm glad that this is over and you have peace, and I agree with Adam Foster Collins, and I think that Cuttingedge got the guidance he was looking for.

Cheers,
Steve


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## 37 V8 (Nov 11, 2011)

This is not an isolated incident. Just got this in an email announcing Kalamazoo Bee School in February.

Under the breakout session list of topics:
Sustainable Apiary / Caroline Abbott


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Yep, and who lives in Kalamazoo?


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Hey Mike off the subject here a little bit but I sent you a couple messages asking how best to order some queens from you next spring. I know your busy but is there a waiting list or process etc. ? Would like to get some into my yards. Thanks

Cheers


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm still finishing up this year and not thinking about next year yet.

Write me at [email protected] subject: 2016 queens


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

will do thanks..


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## Karen of NH (Jan 30, 2014)

Mike
The first time I heard "sustainable" was from Billy Davis one of the founders of the Sustainable Honeybee Program http://www.sustainablebees.org/ 

"Why the use of a buzz word like sustainable? We were for good sustainable honey bee colonies and sustainable beekeeping practices before it became fashionable. It might be noted I very often use the term we were many would use I. That’s my way," from a blog post by Billy Davis.

Uploaded on Aug 17, *2010* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onMfbKV4ExQ Master beekeeper Billy Davis' non-profit organization Sustainable Honeybee Program. He started teaching his theory in the mid 90’s.

Billy Davis Nuc Presentation – Sustainable Honeybee Program
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCYbQJDAmqw this video was captured August 2nd 2013.

At the 40 min. time, talks about using a common base (bottom board) for two nucs side by side. Billy references “if you went to VT and you saw something quite similar, from another, a well-known, and well renown beekeeper, except they were in the same box. If you went back four years and looked at what he was preaching it wasn’t at all like that …………He spent one day with me……..anyway, He’ll never say I did it.”…….

So we all share and learn from each other. But to use the a title of a program that you will be paid for that is and has been used as a title for speaking engagements internationally, by the well-known speaker Michael Palmer, who made the title a beekeepers “household word” today in our close knit industry is certainly unethical. However, since the perpetrator is an author and publisher, he would know very well the laws of plagiarism. 
_8:45	Larry Connor The Sustainable Apiary Keeping colonies alive from year to year is the key aspect of a sustainable apiary._
So how did it go? What did you do?
Karen


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Karen of NH said:


> _8:45	Larry Connor The Sustainable Apiary Keeping colonies alive from year to year is the key aspect of a sustainable apiary._
> So how did it go? What did you do?
> Karen


I wrote and asked him not to. He did anyway. 

The thing is, when you can't keep them alive, or not in _sustainable_ numbers, what do you do? He offered nothing but a title. And the gasps from the audience when his title page went up was rewarding.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Karen of NH said:


> Billy Davis Nuc Presentation – Sustainable Honeybee Program
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCYbQJDAmqw this video was captured August 2nd 2013.
> 
> At the 40 min. time, talks about using a common base (bottom board) for two nucs side by side. Billy references “if you went to VT and you saw something quite similar, from another, a well-known, and well renown beekeeper, except they were in the same box. If you went back four years and looked at what he was preaching it wasn’t at all like that …………He spent one day with me……..anyway, He’ll never say I did it.”…….


This is SO Billy Davis! I have heard him bemoan he is the inventor of overwintering nucs in this method before. God love him for what he has and does contribute to the beekeeping community but.....

I think some of the best teachers are not so concerned about a method they develop and getting the sole credit for it- There really is so little that is truly new- more like revived lost arts. They know to credit the giants that came before them and on whose shoulders they stand. I learned that famous quote as a youngster and I admire when I see folks live it out now- I integrate the practice into many of my own presentations. I was amazed to find the quote in the back of a queen rearing book- true serendipity. If you look closely- and you pay attention- you can clearly see who does give that credit routinely in their presentations as well.


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## xphoney (Nov 7, 2014)

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I am going to try using this system next year and am hoping for much success. It seems that Nucleus Colonies are in short supply up here so if I am somewhat successful at overwintering, I would like to take things a step further and possibly become a supplier of healthy Northern Nucs as well as some other ideas that I have.
> Jason


We use a 5 over 5 system that uses then same bottom board as all of our hives. I build the skids out of 2 inch material, then 2 inch boxes and 1 inch boxes will both fit on the same bottom board. And if you place a strip in the center then you can put two 5 frame nucs next to each other perfectly. The version of bottom board with the strip added works for any size box as well, you just use a different entrance reducer.









In the picture, on the left you see how they look. On the right you see how they are wrapped for the winter.

Andrew
XPHoney


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## JDMoodie (Aug 30, 2014)

winevines said:


> ... There really is so little that is truly new- more like revived lost arts.


I thought I had some new stuff as I was experimenting, ended up with 5 over 5's this fall by accident... long story. Did some reading of old bee journals (from back when a year subscription was $1.00) and found that nothing I was looking at was new at all.

Jeff.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Everything once old is new again.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Tell me about it. I have a collection of about 60 years worth of ABJ & Gleanings. Varroa is about the only new thing.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Colobee said:


> Tell me about it. I have a collection of about 60 years worth of ABJ & Gleanings. Varroa is about the only new thing.


And even varroa isn't all that new! 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...nings-in-Beeculture-April-1979-Varroa-Disease


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Yep - From 50 Years Among the Bees by CC Miller, 1911

"DOUBLE HIVES FOR WINTER.
Not only have I wintered nuclei two and three in a
hive, but a few years ago I had considerable experience in
wintering full colonies in double hives. If I had not
changed from ten-frame to eight-frame hives I should have
continued the practice, but an eight-frame hive makes too
cramped quarters for two full colonies, even in winter.
Still, I approximate it with five frames on one side and
three on the other, and of course the hive could be divided
to take four frames on each side....

ADVANTAGE OF DOUBLE HIVES.
Now, if during the time I have mentioned, we can have
two colonies in one hive, we shall, I think, find it
advantageous in more than one direction. It is a common
thing for bee-keepers to unite two weak colonies in the
fall. Suppose a bee-keeper has two colonies in the fall,
each occupying two combs. He unites them so they will
winter better. If they would not quarrel and would stay
wherever they were put, he could place the two frames of
the one hive beside the two frames in the other hive, and
the thing would be done. Now, suppose that a thin
division-board were placed between the two sets of combs,
would he not see the same result? Not quite, I think, but
nearly so. They would hardly be so warm as without the
division-board, but nearly so; and both queens would be
saved. In the spring it is desirable to keep the bees warm.
If two colonies are in one hive, with a thin division-board
between them, they will be much warmer than if in
separate hives. The same thing is true in winter. I have had
weak nuclei with two combs come through in good
condition during a winter in which I lost heavily;...."

More here: http://bit.ly/1LQORWr


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