# Why's of Top Bar Hives



## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

I had an interesting letter from our provincial apiculturist, expressing some exasperation with the popularity of top bar hives. His feeling was that tbh's take more work than a typical Langstroth, in terms of careful management to prevent swarming and maximize honey yields.

I found these comments interesting and wondered if they reveal the different orientations of commercial beekeepers as opposed to hobbyist and biodiversity beekeepers. 

I replied that the upsurge in interest in tbh designs may well stem from the fact that while you may have to work them more often, you are spared the prospect of hefting full boxes, piling and repiling as you do a hive inspection. Many new beekeepers are middle aged, and perhaps either not on for the lifting, or aware that in time, the lifting will get tougher and tougher. I am very strong compared to most women, but I can barely lift a full deep hive body and cannot easily control it now they are all starting to fill with honey. You can, using empty hive bodies, swap out frames as you inspect, but that method is a bit tedious and time consuming. And perhaps requires more organizational skills than I am typically in possession of!

I also mentioned that my disabled father, whom I think gave up beekeeping early as lifting was quite difficult for him, would likely have kept beekeeping if he could have done it in a chair or wheelchair in front of a top bar hive. Beekeeping is an excellent hobby to take into retirement, providing both a pleasant learning curve and the opportunity to meet and work with pleasant persons. TBH setups may actually extend the time you can devote to the bees.

Hobbyist beekeepers have time to dote on a few backyard hives, so having to be on top of things in swarm season is not a problem (aside from anxious neighbours)...may in fact be an advantage to the entomology fans amongst them. Hobbyists are not necessarily trying to maximize honey yields, as commercial beekeepers must. And if biodiversity contribution is a focus, then swarms are contributions to biodiversity, and may prove a partial remedy to some of the devastating effects of Colony Collapse Disorder.

For myself, I will try one next season, and am looking forward to less lifting, using the delightful observation window, and more or less compulsory wax harvesting (I have a beeswax candle habit!).

What do the rest of you TBH enthusiasts think? Are top bar hives a good idea or just an aesthetic fad?


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## cpm (Mar 8, 2011)

Both - you summed up a lot of the positives already. I chose top bar because it requires less equipment to buy and to have on hand for hive expansion. If you want to do natural comb, then that also negates some of the strengths of the Langstroth. I do agree that honey yield is considerably less in a TBH - but then I don't feed sugar, which most Lang beeks probably do.

I think backyard beekeeping in general is a bit of a fad right now, regardless of hive type.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

WesternWilson, you summarized the benefits/reasoning for having a top bar hive (tbh) very well. My wife and I built four this spring because we did not see even one honeybee last year (possible ONE on an aster bush near the end of summer, but I was not sure that even IT was not some other kind of bee). We just want to run four tbh's, keep them healthy, and improve the bee population in our area. We don't need honey; we get all we want from our son. I really ENJOY working with a build-it-for-practically-nothing tbh much more than I did with the Langstroths that I had 30+ years ago.


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## beegeorge (Apr 19, 2012)

I would suggest anyone interested in Top Bar Hives to read Wyatt Mangun's book on them,, it is an excellent resource,,


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## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

Tbh's are fun!! Hobbyists do stuff just for that reason. Commercial guys---$$
The are more traditional, as their predecessors out date the lang hive by thousands of years. They are, as mentioned in the earlier posts, easily built at home. All you have to do is make a box. Anyone complicating it any further is missing the big point of top bar hives, their simplicity.
They have comb cells that are built and sized by the bees. Commonly referred to as "small or natural". There is a lot of talk about small cell size being better for varroa mite control.


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## SteveBee (Jul 15, 2010)

It seems like most of the negative comments we get on TBHs are from some oldtimer grumbling that you can't get as much honey from this type of hive as you can from a Lang. I just nod my head and agree, and it doesn't make one bit of difference because, obviously, we don't care as much about the quantity of honey as he does. And, if you ask these grumblers how much experience they have personally with TBHs, they turn from grumblers to mumblers and walk away. Amen.


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## SRBrooks (Jun 24, 2012)

BeeGeorge:
What is the title of Wyatt Mangum's book? I can't find it on Amazon. I thought I had read that it wasn't published yet.


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## The Honey Girl's Boy (Jul 26, 2009)

I just talked to Wyatt by email and he said the book is coming out in mid August.
Ernie
Here is a copy/paste of the email;
_For my book, see the attached cover picture and here are some details. You can send it around to other beekeepers if you want.

Top-Bar Hive Beekeeping:
Wisdom & Pleasure
Combined

By Wyatt A. Mangum, PhD

This book is a comprehensive TBH book: 421 big pages, 8 ½ by 11 inches, 12 Chapters, 350+ photographs most color, except 24 infrared pictures of nocturnal wildlife in my apiaries, seen in B&W, groundbreaking beekeeping photography. 

The book shows how to build TBHs up to five-feet long, various sugar syrup feeders, queen cages, queen excluders, queen mating nucs, and even pollen traps, and more.

Also …
Install packages the right way. 
Get the new colony established and ready for winter.
Get straight combs–finally.
Handle new combs–correctly. 
Avoid comb meltdowns.
“Process” honey and sell it with creative honey packaging, all with no expensive extractor.

In addition to all aspects of TBH beekeeping: honey production, wax production, crop pollination, queen production, package bee production, and pollen collection, I will show bee management detail with special close-up photographs. The TBH management chapter is a small book unto itself, running about 100 pages with 96 color photographs. 

In short, this is the must-have book of TBH beekeeping.

More details…
The book cost $45 (Keep in mind production costs were high and it took 25 years to gain the required experience to write it. Since the book has 421 pages and color pictures back-to-back, the paper is high quality. The binding is a smyth binding, which means the pages are sewed together (and glued) so they will not fall out (rather than only glued into the binding, a cheaper "perfect" binding). (I learned a lot about constructing and printing books.)
Dr. Mangum _


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Anything we can do to help the honey population is a good thing. Rather it bee on a TBH or traditional Lang.
As a test, I ran a TBH and a traditional Lang design. I found that the bees absconded twice as often in a Lang than the TBH. Why? I'm not quite sure since they are mere feet from each other. 
The TBH bees flourished at at an amazing pace! Right now, I have approx. 50# of honey in the TBH and about ten in the Lang and we haven't hit our second flow yet. I believe I will have to remove a bar or two to givw them room for the next flow.
There's no question in my mind that a TBH that is properly inspected and manipulated can produce as much honey as the Lang. 
Also for those that are lookind to keep bees as a hobby, the TBH is perfect IMO. Rather inexpensive to build and maintain and easy to care for.
For those that are physically challanged, the TBH can be the only option (do to it's wide variety of modifications) and will allow them to keep bees as they wish.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Two questions...is Dr. Mangum selling from his own site or will the book be available from Amazon etc.? I definitely want a copy!

And Mr. Beeman, can you elaborate on what inspection and manipulation works best for TBH keeping (particularly as opposed to Langstroth technique)? 

My Lang hive was very, very strong and continues to be (although I have managed to wind up queenless and am trying to get them to raise a new queen from borrowed brood), and as I am in an urban neighbourhood would like to minimize swarming. Any advice on dealing with that in TBH appreciated.

Regards,
Janet


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I haven't yet been running any TBH's, but I have been creating TBH nucs for several different customers. Presently I have one 5-comb, medium depth TBH nuc. I began the process, like all the others, before, by placing the empty top bars between brood combs in full-size colonies. I generally only need to leave them in overnight, by the next morning most have the beginnings of nice combs, some of the combs produce in a night can nearly fill the bar. I then knock all the bees from the top bars, placing them in their own empty nuc box, next I place them where their parent nucs are. Then I transfer the queen by hand and shake the remaining bees from their combs into the, now TB nuc and onto the top bars.

Unfortunately after the transferred bees had settled in, finished their combs, and the queen had laid them up, once her brood was sealed it became apparent that she was what is called a "failing queen", as there were scattered drone cappings among her worker brood. My first remedy was to remove that queen and requeen with another queen of proven abilities. I did that, and then that TBH nuc was ready to go. It was very strong and getting stronger by the minute (despite scattered drones, there was still lots of worker brood, which was now emerging). I contacted the customer so she could pick them up. Oops, she was going to be out of town and couldn't pick them up for another week. So to continue this nuc, without swarming, I took immediate drastic action. I selected two of the top bars and cut the combs off - to give the bees a place to work and the new queen plenty of new comb to establish brood in. It is now a week later, the new combs are complete and nearly uniformly the smallest size cells I have seen, yet. And also nearly completely filled with brood. Tomorrow they go to the customer.

It is certainly entertaining to work with TBHs, even as nucs.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Inspection as in typical inspections, but made easier due to the fact the whole hive is not taken apart to inspect the brrod chamber as in a Lang hive. Manipulation as in ease of removing and inserting specific bars either into the brood chamber (for additional brood) or in the honey chamber for additional honey.
Being that all the bars are horizontal instead of vertical, it is less evasive to the bees and eaiser on the beekeeper.
I realize that TBH (at least here in the US) are a relatively new concept, but it does seem to fit a certain niche with some beekeepers. Granted there are Pros and Cons to each style of hive, but the simplicity of this system is quite interesting to me.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

In planning for next year, I am interested in how you manage the TBH in order to minimize swarming...or do controlled swarming such that the swarm does not fly free and upset my neighbour again!

Regards,
Janet


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Western Wilson > "Hobbyist beekeepers have time to dote on a few backyard hives, so having to be on top of things in swarm season is not a problem"

This unfortunately is an incorrect assumption. Nowhere in the US are there more TB hive enthusiasts than in Santa Fe, NM area. The reason is that Les Crowder (who I admire) has for years taught beekeeping classes and promoted TB hives as the preferred means of keeping bees. There is literally a TB hive on every corner withing the city proper. This spring alone I received well over 25 swarm calls and was able to hive up quite a few of them. So where do you think all these swarms originated from? I keep bees in conventional equipment because I always have, but I am in the great minority in doing so. So while hobbyist beekeepers might have the time to dote their backyard bees, most of them are quite ill prepared to manage the colony to prevent swarming, or establish a knock-down nuc to make increase. They are not what you would call on top of things, because they generally lack the experience.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

I can attest personally to the un-wisdom of the noob! There are lots of book out there but as my friend Arvin told me, the bees don't read them! I think I managed to make myself queenless via my swarm prevention measures, and probably had a swarm anyway. My hive was booming...huge! I was totally unprepared for that.

So RiskyBizz, fire away with advice for the inexperienced! I/we could use some!


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Western if you google Les Crowder you will find that he has published a new book on TB hives that should now be released. Les is a great resource for TB hive enthusiasts. I would not pretend to know anything about TB hive management and will refrain from giving any sort of advice in managing them. Bees are bees however, so the same rules apply as far as introducing a new queen, or giving the colony the resources to rear their own. As many have stated here, the best advice is to read up on beekeeping (the oldtimers are a wealth of information) and if possible find yourself a mentor to help every now and then. No, bees don't read books, but there is much information to be gathered from the likes of Doolittle, Jay Smith and numerous others who spend many years of their lives doing trial and error research, so that you don't have to do it all over again.


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## mhorowit (Sep 25, 2011)

beegeorge said:


> I would suggest anyone interested in Top Bar Hives to read Wyatt Mangun's book on them,, it is an excellent resource,,


His book is out? Where? Please -Mike


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## mhorowit (Sep 25, 2011)

Mr.Beeman said:


> Inspection as in typical inspections, but made easier due to the fact the whole hive is not taken apart to inspect the brrod chamber as in a Lang hive. Manipulation as in ease of removing and inserting specific bars either into the brood chamber (for additional brood) or in the honey chamber for additional honey.
> Being that all the bars are horizontal instead of vertical, it is less evasive to the bees and eaiser on the beekeeper.


This is my first year and I'm running a single tbh. In order to get to the brood area at the entrance end, I have to do the following: remove about 5 bars to give myself working room, check for attach points on the next bar, disconnect or if lucky, simply shift the bar to the end. Repeat as needed until I reach th brood area. Do you things differently, because I would consider this " taking the hive apart ". Your experience please? -mike


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Considering that you are moving a few bars and shifting a few is far less evasive than removing the telescoping top, inner cover, two to three supers, lying them on the ground and them proceeding to remove each frame to inspect the brood chamber. That's only a partial inspection of the Lang. 
Just easier IMO to pull a frame inspect then re insert. I only pull one to get room to work the other. I may be lucky, but I really don't have much brace comb in the TBH. lol


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## Metropropolis (Feb 15, 2012)

It is surprising that this hasn't been brought to your/his attention:

"An analysis of the Kenyan Top Bar Hive vis-à-vis the Langstroth in Calgary, Alberta."
http://members.shaw.ca/metropropolis/An analysis of the Kenyan Top Bar Hive in Calgary Alberta.pdf


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## Metropropolis (Feb 15, 2012)

Riskybizz said:


> Western if you google Les Crowder you will find that he has published a new book on TB hives that should now be released. Les is a great resource for TB hive enthusiasts.


I read his entitled "Why [choose] Topbar?" at http://www.fortheloveofbees.com/why-topbar/

It struck me as the usual misrepresentations and half-truths that TBH enthusiasts promote. 

It's a shame, as I've otherwise found much of value in Les' writings.


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## Metropropolis (Feb 15, 2012)

Riskybizz said:


> Western Wilson > "Hobbyist beekeepers have time to dote on a few backyard hives, so having to be on top of things in swarm season is not a problem"
> 
> This unfortunately is an incorrect assumption. Nowhere in the US are there more TB hive enthusiasts than in Santa Fe, NM area. The reason is that Les Crowder (who I admire) has for years taught beekeeping classes and promoted TB hives as the preferred means of keeping bees. There is literally a TB hive on every corner withing the city proper. This spring alone I received well over 25 swarm calls and was able to hive up quite a few of them. So where do you think all these swarms originated from?


I agree with Wilson about backyard beekeeping allowing one to give lots of attention to hives, but this doesn't rule out other limiting factors. 

This spike in swarms originating from top bars is caused by the combination of beekeeping inexperience, plus the fact that most KTBHs are undersized swarm-machines.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I started a thread about this a while ago Top Bar Misinformation Propogated by "The Experts"

I quoted an article which may be the same one the op is talking about. I wrote back to him, asking about what data he was basing all of his judgements, and never heard back. I know he likely meant well, though.

There is too much misinformation both for and against tbh's. Managements is really the key to successes, failures, and how "natural" the bees are living. It's not the hive type that determines that.

I presently have 13 colonies, and 5 of those are in tbh's. I have wintered successfully for two winters here in Nova Scotia in them.

Tbh's are great in many ways. They also have their challenges. 

They are very simple to make if built in their "traditional" form. They are very inexpensive to build, particularly if you use reclaimed material. They are very 'clean' to work, as you rarely get into much propolis when handling top bars. The limited opening also makes them relatively quiet to work, when compared to the necessary 'disassembling' required to do a complete inspection of a lang.

On the other hand, they require more management to avoid swarming, and to maximize production. They are not easy to move, so this makes them very difficult to use for pollenation. They don't super well. It's often a challenge to interface with other beekeepers, as most run langstroth equipment. So getting a nuc can present challenges. There are far fewer people with extensive experience with them, so finding a mentor is near impossible for many people, and there are very few books to help either. 

The fact is that the tbh is for different needs than the langstroth. Each hive offers a different set of benefits and challenges. The recent rise in popularity of alternative hive types such as the kenyan and tanzanian tbh, as well as the Warré have just broadened the appeal of beekeeping. So I think they're great. The whole realm is richer for them.

Adam


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

That was a very nicely presented, carefully thought out examination...great resource!

My concern as well is the swarming issue and how rattled my neighbours may get. They were quite upset about the one swarm I had this season (my langstroth hive was/is unusually strong). I think if that happened a lot, they would petition the municipality to rethink backyard beekeeping. 

It is clear that if I stock a TBH next year, I will have to put in a lot of monitoring effort. I look forward to someone elucidating just how that is done!


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Metropropolis said:


> "An analysis of the Kenyan Top Bar Hive vis-à-vis the Langstroth in Calgary, Alberta."
> http://members.shaw.ca/metropropolis/An analysis of the Kenyan Top Bar Hive in Calgary Alberta.pdf


 All 20+ pages are heavily biased towards superiority of Lang, which is not new. All statements regarding KTBH was made with opinion behind that Lang is better... waste time reading, nothing new. Such comparison is useless because it is two different approaches. They just have entirely different management. There are many ways of beekeeping. Nearly every country has its own approach and beehive design. Many of these designs are horizontal for some reason, why? I guess, it has some advantages. But it is counterproductive to compare Lang and TBH directly. Sergey


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

WesternWilson,
Your neighbors should be glad you're not charging them for the privilege they've been blessed with. Most people can go their entire lives without ever having the opportunity to witness, firsthand, a swarm of honey bees, one of the natural wonders of the world. Swarms are almost entirely harmless to all other living creatures - the bees only concern being to find themselves a home of their own.

Whether you're keeping bees in Langstroth, Warre, TBH, or any other hive design, despite your management, you are likely always going to have swarms. Your efforts to appease your less-educated neighbors, is commendable, but may be futile.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Sergey, I agree some of the phrasing made the document sound a bit biased. But he raised good points about management of both hive designs. I do like the Langstroths for some reasons, but find the lifting of boxes a problem (and aside from not liking squishing bees when I put them back together, I think taking the stack apart always puts the queen at risk, and may be how I lost mine). I will likely convert my Langstroth setup so that I have all shallow supers. The deep boxes are now filling with honey for winter and I can't manage them by myself unless I swap frames out into an empty box and them swap them all back.

Joseph, I agree swarms are a natural wonder...I am actually sorry I missed seeing it myself! But people are so removed from nature and disorder these days. They are shocked and frightened by unfamiliar, chaotic natural events. I have accepted that if future swarms tip my neighbour over the edge, I will have to find a beeyard for my hive/s. Which is a shame as I must live in some kind of nectar paradise...the hive is presently stuffed with honey and without really knowing what I am doing (noob), and with the bees making all comb new (first year), I have already taken 3 gallons of honey and expect to get that much again before the season ends. About 60 pounds of honey (I think the usual conversion is 10 lb. per gallon?) all told? So I think my back yard has been a pretty good spot for bees (the hive population strikes me as unusually large as well). I am only sorry the local blueberry fields are just out of range as that gives a nice flavour to honey, although I think all of them use pesticides, so perhaps it is just as well they are out of reach.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Exactly! Every time I smash the bee in the Lang, I feel, I am a serial killer! I hate moving boxes and disturbing bees. I am not saying that one beehive type is better than another. I am just saying that many types of beehives are suitable. Some more, some less. That article shows only TBH from Lang's prospective,which is biased in my opinion. 
As for keeping bees in the urban environment - neighbors problem, sounds familiar. I am giving honey for all my neighbors and they love me and my bees! But, we need to remember that bees are not domesticated, they are actually wild animals. So, they needs to be treated accordingly. Bees sting when their home under attack. They normally do not attack first. It is usually human (or animal sometime), who triggers their reaction. Swarming is a natural way of bees reproduction. No swarms, no reproduction. Bees need natural reproduction to select proper genes to fight diseases, CCD and other disasters. Over-breeding is bad as it bad for any animals, dogs, etc. Sergey


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## 6470zzy (Mar 13, 2012)

I suggest that you might want to take a ride and attend this presentation. For a copy of Wyatt Mangum's book and to hear him speak.

http://colonialbeekeepers.com/index...t-mangum-presentation&catid=1:latest&Itemid=2

Cheers


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Western Wilson, I think you will find that our honey flow is very close to ending leaving them with only enough forage for their daily needs. So be careful as to how much honey you take or you may end up having to feed 6 gallons of syrup so they can make the winter.

I've been running TBH's for a number of years and can say that they are manageable in our area. The biggest issue that I see has nothing to do with hive style but lack of ones understand as to working with a natural comb hive. There are several ways to avoid swarming of bees which apply to any hive. Are you a member of a bee club? If not we have the Richmond Beekeepers Assoc. that has a good mix of Beekeepers some using TBH's that may be helpful to you. We meet every second Tuesday at the Richmond Nature Reserve on Westminster Hwy. The next meeting being in Sept.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Thanks for that Delta Bay! My three lower deeps are stuffed with honey, so I think I have enough there to get them through the winter, especially as I hope to get the third deep off, leaving them in two for the winter. I have two shallow supers also nearly ready to harvest...chock full o' honey....but I will keep back half my harvest in case I need to feed. I would imagine our long, cold and wet springs mean feeding for sure.

I was warned that Aug 15th is when the flow usually ends. Hope this late summer means a longer flow, but at this point I do have more than enough for giving away, so I am happy.

I do have the Sept. date for the Richmond meeting in my calendar and plan to be there. I need some solid advice on swarm management both for the tbh and the langstroth as one neighbour is not too happy with the bees.

My big problem right now is getting requeening done if the girls do not have a viable supercedure cell made on tomorrow's inspection. I would like to get a queen under a queen excluder ASAP in order to start gettting organized for winter.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

My only beef with top bars is that some (to many) people claim that they prevent disease, are "natural", or other marketing terms. Well-meaning new beekeepers in turn can have a frustrating time when they find out that they still have honeybees in this magical apparatus, and give up on beekeeping. Bees is bees, and the equipment style is simply a management choice, not a political affiliation  (or a magic bullet).


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## Maddox65804 (Dec 29, 2011)

So far these comments are pretty much what I expected. I have TBH's and Langs. I am considering converting all my TBHs to long box hives (horizontal lang). Why? The because I get the benefit of both models. Easy liftng but all the benefits of frames. After working with TBH's I just don't get it. The comb is just as natural in frames as topbars. 

INspections are just as invasive because all topbars must be moved to inspect the next bar. When inspecting a lang, you only have to remove a few frames to inspect the whole hive. So easier or less invasive inspection arguement does'nt hold water..

It takes more materials to construct a TBH than it does a long Lang because the sides are longer (because of the slant). I make all my boxes out of "practically-for-nothing" salvaged materials. So material costs are technically more expensive (although constructing hives out of salvaged materials sure takes a lot of time and labor)

The only arguement that seems to stand is that there is less lifting with TBHs and a long lang has the same benefit.

All in all, the TBH is a fun concept but the long lang is seems to be better - what am I missing?


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## Cris (Mar 10, 2011)

I have a golden mean (Backyard Beehives) and I love it for three reasons: 1. observation windows are awesome; 2. only needing to lift out a few bars at a time is less stressful for both the bees and myself; 3. it's very aestetically pleasing. Drawbacks for me are only that I will never really get a 'big' honey harvest, because I need to harvest a couple of combs at a time, and then they must draw it back out with fresh wax - which isn't all bad because I can stick the empty bars into the broodnest and just keep checkerboarding them.


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## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

I also have a window in my hive and it is a big help. I can go to the hive on my way to the car in the morning. Peek inside, make sure everything is good. I'm not saying you can't have window on a lang, but not many do if any. 
I believe that the TBH HAS to be better for the health of the bees..
My logic is that if you put them in a lang with "designated size comb foundations", you are then FORCING them to make honey, or forcing them to make babies in cells not sized by them. Then, you take the choice away from the bees. In nature, they will build what "they" need. In a TBH they are more likely to do the same.
When you try to increase your honey output, you are going to decrease something else since all tasks take energy and time for the bees to complete. Maybe it will decrease the time and energy they would have used to clean themselves or police for parasites. Who knows?
As for ease of access, the TBH kills the lang. Here is why. A TBH can be fully examined with no more than two or three bars out at any time...And you can check every single bar and never have a large opening. And the bars are light. 
To check every bar in a lang of course you will have to lift each super off to access the one below it. Then, the bottom of each successive super is a huge opening. 
Remember that Lang's first objective was honey production. And being able to re-use the honey comb. Re-using honey comb has its own inherent risks of contamination too if not properly treated..
Hey Maddox, if you put your langs together are you going to take out all the intermediate walls? Or are you going to use the frames only? Your TBH doesn't have to have sloped sides if you don't want. Tanzanian vs Kenyan.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Maddox, that makes good sense...have you got photos etc.? I have heard so little about long box hives/horizontal Langs and would like to hear more. If only Langs rolled out like drawers!


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## Maddox65804 (Dec 29, 2011)

Keefis,

Langs do not have to be run with foundation anymore that TBHS do. It is just as simple to run foundationless frames as it is to run topbars. So the bees still draw cells naturally - with any cell size they prefer. The advantage is that the combs in frames are easier to manage. Less breakage and they are even extractable (in a basket extractor, not a radial extractor). So, in that sense, they save the bees a lot of work because we are not destroying their combs constantly.

The first goal of any beehive is the health of the bees, not honey production. We cannot force the bees to use their energy in any way. They still decide how to allocate the energy within the hive. Langs cannot "make" them produce more honey, they just provide better opportunities for them to make honey. I think the real effect we are seeing is that when bees are kept in horizontal hives instead of vertical hives, they produce less honey. Horizontal hives are easier for the beekeeper, but not necessarily better for the bees. 

That being said, I do a lot of cutouts and I see bees choose cavities of both orientations - horizontal and vertical. Do they have a preference or is it just opportunity?

The ease of access in TBHs argument does not stand up. To examine any topbar, the other topbars in front of it need to be moved. The whole nest needs to be disturbed if you want to do a full inspection. This is no different from a lang, where a frame has to be moved to see the frame next to it. And, in both hive styles we only need to pull out enough frames to get a good picture of the hive health. in neither hive do we need to pull all the frames. So, they are essentially the same. As I've said, I have both TBH's and langs. I understand the benefits/drawbacks of both. 

I am asking the forum here why a horizontal lang (a 4-5 foot long, horizontal hive. Like a Topbar but with frames) doesn't have the same benefits of a topbar with none of the drawbacks. It actually has all the benefits of a TBH plus the benefits of using frames. 

I've run both types of hives and understand the "cool" factor of seeing bees make their own comb in a TBH. But after the coolness factor wears off, I get tired of constantly damaging their hive by destroying the combs. A horizontal lang lets me see them draw natural comb (foundationless frames) and lets me reuse the combs. I do rotate out combs to prevent contamination build up.

Keefis is also right about TBH not having to have sloped sides. This fact destroys the argument that TBH's are less expensive to build than horizontal langs. One way or the other, materials have to be used to form some kind of box that stands up to the weather. Here in the US, with all the scrap materials laying around for the asking, is there any reason to use brush, grass, sticks, plywood etc to make hives that fall apart? There is so much wood out there for free, why not use it? If people in developing countries had access to the scrap materials we have, don't you think they would use it? If this is truly about the bees, why are some people housing them in substandard housing?

Westernwilson - That may be a cool idea! have the hive slide out like the heavy duty tool box in my truck. It would be expensive but fun! Talk about no lifting!


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Maddox, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I have both as well. The only thing I differ with you on is the cost of a lang vs. a top bar. You say in post #33:

"It takes more materials to construct a TBH than it does a long Lang because the sides are longer (because of the slant)." 

Maybe - if your lang is only a few boxes in total height - and you don't count frames or bottom board, inner and outer cover. You also mention labor being a cost and that's true. If you compare the time and material to build an entire lang with two deeps, and a medium - or three deeps, covers bottom *and frames* - vs. a 4 foot ktbh with 18" bars and 12" sloping sides, the two won't even be close. A langstroth is way more complicated to build.

If you buy frames, a lang gets pretty easy, and that is what I have done. Even more, I have also designed covers and bottoms to be simpler and less expensive. If you go that route, I agree - a lang set-up is great.

I think a horizontal lang is probably a great way to go. The only thing for me is that it still makes moving a hive hard. But in all other respects, it's probably a wonderful set up. I still have to try one.

Adam


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Maddox65804 said:


> - what am I missing?


Rhetoric? An opportunity to alienate fellow beekeepers? A chance to eschew critical thinking for stodgy parochialism?


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## Metropropolis (Feb 15, 2012)

Maddox65804 said:


> Keefis,
> 
> Langs do not have to be run with foundation anymore that TBHS do. It is just as simple to run foundationless frames as it is to run topbars. So the bees still draw cells naturally - with any cell size they prefer.
> 
> - Other observations trimmed -


Your observations are very consistent with my own, as documented in my article referenced previously in the thread. If you havn't read it, please do - I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

I'm currently experimenting with a horizontal Lang, and as you observe, they incorporate desirable features from both platforms.


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## Metropropolis (Feb 15, 2012)

Maddox said:


> - what am I missing?





Ben Brewcat said:


> Rhetoric? An opportunity to alienate fellow beekeepers? A chance to eschew critical thinking for stodgy parochialism?


Given that Maddox has said he keeps both kinds of hives, the accusation of parochialism seems inappropriate.

It is my observation that KTBH keepers become very defensive about any criticism of their hives, regardless of source or substance.


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## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

I should have been more specific. Langs using frames with foundation. (which is the majority)

Lang created the hive design to boost honey production. He tweaked different aspects of the natural process to do this. That is why there are so many interchangeable parts and pieces. In the woods, there is a hole in a rotten tree. 
In nature, the honey combs are not separated from the rest of the hive. Each comb will have brood in the middle honey on the edges. With that being true, honey supers on top are a manipulation of the natural process. Therefore other aspects of the hive are affected. Whether it is an opportunity or an ultimatum, making honey takes energy. There is only so much energy in the hive.
By the way, top bars are extractable...You just have to use caution and flip them around a few times during the spinning extraction process. Re-using the combs will save work of course but it will also create opportunities for contamination.

What is the deal with people saying you have to remove all the bars? That is not true...I can take any bar out of my TBH in any order with very little chance of squishing bees. As long as your comb isn't attached to the wall it should be fine.
I have 1 1/2" inch bars on all so the combs below are more narrow. Maybe that is my advantage. I did not have any cross combing since the initial install. 
As far as a Lang being a TBH...That is lawyer talk. We only have so many descriptive words to use, if you combine them, I wouldn't know what to call it!!
I have contemplated building "frames" instead of top bars for the advantages it would provide.
Too lazy thus far though. I would just build a new hive that accepts all your frames, rather than using actual Lang boxes.

One more tidbit on the sliding out the hive supers.... A filing cabinet.. With a little bit of interior sealing it would be possible to house each super in a drawer.


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## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

The brood area is _three dimensional_ and tends to be in the center of the colony. Pure-honey stores are found near the edge, when the hive has accumulated enough honey to put them out there. Honey is also stored around the edge of the brood, presumably for "a quick grab" when some baby's cryin'. Sometimes the brood nest is at one end or the other. When you see pure-honey bars on the end, these are the ones you can _consider_ taking.

With TBHs you don't have separate supers and you also don't have a large space that you try to by various ways "encourage" the bees to fill up. They have a space that is of reasonable size and they grow into it, distributing the space therein however they please. They will tend to adopt natural patterns which are known and predictable.

I've never felt that one "versus" the other was the proper way to look at it. I've had both; I vastly prefer TBHs. It certainly was nice to re-enter the beekeeping world by recycling weathered lumber for a total raw-materials cost of about $63.00 for three hives; that basically being the cost of carrying handles, a can of Thompson's Water Seal and a couple of brushes. Oh yeah, plus the cost of two packages which we were able to pick up locally.


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