# Treatment free Bees



## beejack1 (Jan 2, 2017)

I will be starting with bees this spring. I want to go foundationless and treatment free but all the local beekeepers near me treat their bees. I would like to buy local for the overwintering aspect. How would I go about the no treatment route if the bees are used to treatments.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

There are things you can do to go treatment free but you should learn how to keep bees alive first then when you think your ready try the treatment free. But not with all your bees.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

You cannot go treatment free with bees that have been treated all their lives and for generations Prior. You need to start with Hygienic. I really like Dan the bee guy's Response It simply makes sense to begin beekeeping with something that is least difficult. Going treatment free is a lot easier for an experienced beekeeper. than a rank beginner. Beginners have trouble realizing when they have a problem quite often until it is too late. So becoming an accomplished beekeeper before going treatment free could just give you the tools to be successful!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Dan the bee guy said:


> There are things you can do to go treatment free but you should learn how to keep bees alive first then when you think your ready try the treatment free. But not with all your bees.


there's some truth to what dan says here.

welcome the the beesource treatment free beekeeping subforum beejack1. 

first a friendly word of advice: get good at ignoring the off handed remarks coming from folks who have never been treatment free, have no intention of becoming treatment free, and get their jollies making by snide remarks in response to very legitimate questions posted in the appropriate subforum as you did in your opening post.

i'll have more recommendations to make, but in the mean time...


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## J O'Haro (Feb 4, 2014)

I 2nd what squarepeg said. I have lost 4 out of 43 thus far this winter. 2 because of mites, 2 where weak nucs that I should of combined last fall. 
read, read and read. take all with a grain of salt.


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## J O'Haro (Feb 4, 2014)

wisdom in what tenbears posted on this subject


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

beejack1 said:


> I will be starting with bees this spring. I want to go foundationless and treatment free but all the local beekeepers near me treat their bees. I would like to buy local for the overwintering aspect. How would I go about the no treatment route if the bees are used to treatments.


I started in 2016 and I was exactly in your position. 

* Wanted Treatment Free
* All my local beeks treated (as far as I asked in the club)
* Wanted foundation less

I set out to:

* Find Treatment Free queen supplier about 90 miles away
* Buy a commercial Nuc from the bee club (as thats the best I could get)
* Let that Nuc grow, then split and requeen the splits with the TF queens I would get the aforementioned TF supplier

I made 3 TF Queen Nucs in June 2016.

You could go that route. 

Long story short 2 out of 3 TF Nucs failed due to being overrun by mites, by September 2016. Looking back, its possible that the splits I made from Non TF bees are already overrun with mites. If you read around, many TF Queen producers suggest giving CLEAN, HEALTHY worker bees to a TF Queen. 

In my research no queen supplier (TF or Non TF) guarantees success. And outcome depends on LOT of variables. A recent thread by JRG13 in Queen Rearing forum on the TF Journey is great read on the pains & lengths people go for TF and their experience. 

There are couple of pinned threads on top of this TF Forum (squarepeg journey is excellent read) that are MUST reads. 

Hope that helps and Good Luck.


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## pjigar (Sep 13, 2016)

I just started last year. I wanted to be treatment free when I started! As I learned from reading over the months after I setup my hives, I realized that Varroa mites are real threat and you can't ignore them. I opted to go limited treatment with natural options Oxalic, Thymol, etc. Every OAV I have done made mites fall even for the first year hives.

Long story short, be nice but carry a big gun.

I am foundation less as well so far (to save money)!


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Do not even think of going treatment free with less than four hives in year one and four nucs added in year two to do splits the first year you try TF. In your climate those nucs may need to be as big as 5 over 5 over 5 deeps to over winter reliably unless you go with plastic foam boxes. Less than that and you risk everything being dead come spring and no bees to use to restart. More is better. You are in Canada and can not import from the US as I understand your laws so VSH or Minnesota Hygienic queens may be hard to find. And you should start with one of those as they are the best we have against mites.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

beejack1 said:


> How would I go about the no treatment route if the bees are used to treatments.


I would try to find someone who does cutouts or removals of feral honey bees nearby and see if they would be willing to sell a nucleus hive. I would also email the New Brunswick Beekeepers Association and ask if there were any treatment free beekeepers that you could connect with. Do a little research on the life cycle of varroa mites so that you will understand how that relates to the annual brood cycles of honey bees in your area. You will face some headwinds, particularly in your location, and may not have a lot of encouragement. Stay connected here.


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## frogpondwarrior (Aug 2, 2016)

beejack1 said:


> I will be starting with bees this spring. I want to go foundationless and treatment free but all the local beekeepers near me treat their bees. I would like to buy local for the overwintering aspect. How would I go about the no treatment route if the bees are used to treatments.


Your bees will arrive with varroa mites. Best to treat at first so they survive. Then your best bet is to breed to be varroa resistant so you can be treatment free. Some may be doing that now but the places you can buy bees is limited. So along the way you will lose a lot of bees getting to the treatment free point. If your neighbour has mites you will have mites. 
You have to register your hives(it's free) with the province by May 31st. See links below.
Fletcher Colpitts is Chief Apiary Inspector for the Dept of Agi in the province. He is a pretty good guy and has 100 hives himself.

http://www.nbba.ca/ is a very weak provincial site. Maine and Ontario have much better sites and resource links. 

"If you have honeybees, you are required to register your bees (Apiary Inspection Act, Section 3.1) by May 31st of each year.

Here is the link to the New Brunswick “Beekeeper Registration” form. http://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/s...eekeeper_Registration.html#serviceDescription

Good luck and enjoy.


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## beejack1 (Jan 2, 2017)

Thank you for all the info. It is greatly appreciated. Looking forward to more ideas on the subject.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Welcome to Bee Source, beejack1!

This strategy is to removed the mite infected cap brood frames to a small nuc hive (the mite bee bomb nuc) and brushed off all the
attaching bees on the frame back to the parent hive. If you want to go with the tf option. Then do
the following:

1. Learn to rear your own local queens as early as
the weather permit. 
2. Transfer the mite infested frames over to the new 
queen nuc hives. Make sure fewer mites are inside before the winter sets in.
3. Repeat step #2 until majority of the mites are dead or gone.
4. Use mite resistant bees like the furgerson in your country who sells the
Buckfast bees. I have no experience with them yet because of import border restriction. 
5. Insulate the hives or use insulated hives on winter days.
6. Feed the bees to have better health against the mites.
7. Plant for your bees --flowers, veggies, trees and vines.

All my hives are still alive now thanks to the mite bee bomb (<== use the search button) nuc hive which received majority of the mite infested cap bee frames. This will allow the mite levels to be under control at the same time no interference with the hive's growth. Luckily they are still alive, going tf!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

beejack1, i'm a fan of one of your fellow canadians, les stroud, and his tv series called 'survivorman'.

in one of his episodes he talks about 'counting lemons', and what he is referring to are factors contributing to his chances of achieving a good outcome in his survival challenge. basically he is trying to do his best to avoid a '3 lemons' situation.

i think a similar analogy can be made with first year beekeeping, and the survival we are talking about is that of your first year colonies.

i can vouch for the comments shared by the others that one's first year with beekeeping is full of challenges and has a fairly steep learning curve. having to learn everything from scratch with your colonies bearing the brunt of that learning process is enough to count as one lemon.

if you are unable to find anyone else in your general area having success with keeping bees off treatments, and you are unable to procure such bees along with management advice from such folks, then no one has blazed the trail before you and you will be pioneering. in my view that would qualify as a second lemon.

if it turns out that in your general area you have feral colonies surviving winter(s) in hollowed out trees and abandoned buildings, thereby showing you that it is possible for colonies to make it year to year off treatments, i might consider that an anti-lemon that could negate one of the others. but if there are no verifiable ferals surviving in your general area then i will have to say that should be counted as another lemon.

3 lemons means pretty tough going.

i happen to disagree with statements like, 'all you have to do to be treatment free is just not use treatments'.

a recurring theme here on this forum and elsewhere has been:

first year beekeeper + non treatment free bees + no mite monitoring or intervention = a good chance of dead bees by winter

wanting to keep bees off treatments is a worthy goal and there a plenty of examples here and elsewhere that it can be done successfully, albeit it appears to be much easier in some locations than it does in others.

i'll echo what the others above have said about the most important thing you can do at this point is do everything you can to hone your basic beekeeping knowledge and skills. here are a couple of resources that you can spend the next few weeks going through for the knowledge part...

http://scientificbeekeeping.com

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

...as well as perusing the threads here on beesource.

for the skills part make it a point to meet up with other beekeepers in your area and join with them every time you can when they are working their bees. watch, learn, and pick their brains.

there will be much more to talk about, thanks for starting the thread, and we look forward to tracking your progress.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

You might want to read the article Going Treatment Free W/O the Pain by Dr. Milbrath. in the December issue of the American Bee Journal. She makes some good points.


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## ShrekVa (Jan 13, 2011)

At least use foundation so you have usable combs to start your new hive with when the others die. You will lose bees treatments or not, and a bunch of drone comb wont be any good to you making nucs or trying to build up a package/ swarm whatever. That said foundationless can work, it takes some skill time and effort to consistently get usable worker combs. Don't delude yourself about drone comb, the hive wants it, its natural etc. Yes it is yes they do, mites love drones too. Ray Marler brought this up to me and it really struck home, where do the mites go when the drones are gone, and at such a critical time of year to boot. Good luck!


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

You've been given a lot of good advice, I will add some of my experiences. I started with top bar which are natural comb. My purchased bees soon died. I then trapped bees from near my home and from the middle of a 280,000 acre military reservation (survivor bees) that were fully regressed in size. I still run top bar hives in a remote location and have not treated them for years, I use them for breeding queens. Other than those, I switched to langstroth boxes with foundationless frames, I treat those with OAV when there are few brood cells, once in August and once in late November. I can tell that my completely TF bees struggle harder to maintain population but they are still surviving.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Stan.vick, the queens you breed from your TF hives in the remote location, when transferred to hives in other locations, how do they fare then?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

beejack1 said:


> I will be starting with bees this spring. I want to go foundationless and treatment free but all the local beekeepers near me treat their bees. I would like to buy local for the overwintering aspect. How would I go about the no treatment route if the bees are used to treatments.


Hi beejack1 welcome to BeeSource!


> Here a quote:
> There are three paths to mite resistant bees:
> 
> 1. Hard Bond approach which is to let all the susceptible bees die. This is the fastest but is hardest on one's finances.
> ...


1.- Hard bond is impossible with treated bees in my eyes if you have no ferals around and so more resistant drones. 
2-. My opinion is that this is not successful. IMHO you breed virulent mites and your hives will establish no microfauna, which needs a long time. Microfauna is essential.
3.-the best approach. You can place your susceptible ones in another location, treat them ( without chemicals, for example) and use them to introduce the better queens.
If it´s not about honey production in your case, use the isolated bee yard not to have too much reinfestation.

Listen to tenbears who is right. You need experience in some situations. I had some at the start, even some mentors, but it is not enough. You will make mistakes until you are adapted to your bees and until you know about your local circumstances.
Very good advise here in this thread.
In my location and with high losses on our path we are obliged to use treated stock now. Some have success with this but regressed first. Regress means in our program: onto small or natural cell, hot brood area with less space between frames, honey for feed, sugar shakedowns or some drone cutting. Taking out of brood combs if the reinfestation is high.

Foundationless I think a very good idea but they need much energy for drawing. The wax will be the best though and wax produced from your location. Very healthy. And they probably will draw more naturally cell size.
Don´t fear the drones but monitor mites. For a good mating they need drones, if the matings are bad you have more losses from queen failures.

If you read my sticky thread you see I have high losses in my second winter with tf stock, even with "resistant" stock.
The cause for this is mainly not the mite but my managements. I have yet to learn much.

Hey squarepeg! You are moderator! Congratulations!


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Stan.vick, the queens you breed from your TF hives in the remote location, when transferred to hives in other locations, how do they fare then?


Hard to say Oldtimer, since I don't have other genetics for comparison, I still lose colonies at the rate of 20 percent, some years a little less. In the remote completely TF colonies it runs 20 to as high as 40 percent, it's a small apiary ( six to eight colonies ) not really enough colonies for a good study. My success with keeping any alive may be that I don't have any commercial apiaries near enough to dilute the genetics and spread pests and diseases, so I don't get the big-head saying I'm an expert, a lot of it is just plain luck.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Dan the bee guy said:


> There are things you can do to go treatment free but you should learn how to keep bees alive first then when you think your ready try the treatment free. But not with all your bees.


I have never understood the logic in this, HOWEVER, in this case already obtaining bees that have been treated it makes a little sense to me. If you truly want to be treatment free find bees that have never been treated, whether that be through beeks, cutouts, etc. Start with multiple hives and propagate from those that make the cut.


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

FONH, I believe the "LOGIC", if I may surmise, is nothing beats a "mentor", not a person you reach out too once in a while. The new person really needs a mentor and/or coach. Nothing beats walking in someone's shoes. They can read until they go blind, and yet not understand the practical application. 

Humility goes a long way. I've been managing bees for 30+ years, and I still learn from mentoring. That would be my best advice for a person starting out.

Find someone willing to take on the challenge, be it commercial, sideliner, or hobbyist, and then both people must commit. Its not easy, but very rewarding.

Stonefly7


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## beejack1 (Jan 2, 2017)

Thank you all again. Very informative discussion. My apiary will be alone with no one near me. My closest keeper is about 8 miles away as the crow flies. I will try and find some wild stock I know there are some around as I see them quite often on my land but I have never looked for them. I have been looking into this for 35 years and have read a lot of books on the subject. Just finished Michael Bush book for the 4th time. Also read CC Millers book 50 years among the bees as well as a few others. Will give it a shot and let you all know how I make out. Thank you all again.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

You might try catching some swarms out in the country away from other beekeepers. Put your name on removal lists.


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## 357 (May 2, 2016)

billabell said:


> You might want to read the article Going Treatment Free W/O the Pain by Dr. Milbrath. in the December issue of the American Bee Journal. She makes some good points.


I have not read Dr. Milbrath's article in ABJ, but she came to my local club last summer and was the main speaker for nearly 2 hours. She gave a presentation but also fielded a ton of questions. I won't claim to know exactly what's in the article but at our meeting she asked how many in our club treat their bees. Many hands went up. Next she asked how many beeks want to be TF. A few hands went up. She went on to say that we should all want to be TF someday and that we can get there by utilizing IPM and good genetic stocks. She changed my mind from going strictly TF. She said that she monitors colonies and only treats if necessary but then also requeens that colony with better genetics as soon as possible given the current season. This allows you to not suffer massive loses, but still strive toward building resistant stocks. I am hoping to buy some queens from her apiary this year. I highly recommend reading her work.

I also highly recommend joining your local beekeeping club if there is one. Beesource and YouTube are great resources but having a local mentor and local beeks you can lean on is also very valuable.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks Stan.vick, your 20% loss is better than the (claimed) average, so congrats!

The reason for my question was that transferability is what would be key. There's guys having success being TF but put those bees somewhere else and they fail. If a bee could be made that could be transferred to other parts and still be successful TF, then in my view, this whole TF thing would cease being a point of debate. Everybody could get the TF bees, and stop treating. So to me, as someone with a commercial bias, transferability is where it would be at.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Thanks Stan.vick, your 20% loss is better than the (claimed) average, so congrats!
> 
> The reason for my question was that transferability is what would be key. There's guys having success being TF but put those bees somewhere else and they fail. If a bee could be made that could be transferred to other parts and still be successful TF, then in my view, this whole TF thing would cease being a point of debate. Everybody could get the TF bees, and stop treating. So to me, as someone with a commercial bias, transferability is where it would be at.


I see your point more clearly now Oldtimer about transferability,I don't sell queens, but have sold nucs, my clients are satisfied the first two to three years, but due to natural re-queening the robustness of the colonies began to fade, they would have to be re-queened with the original genetics to continue as robust treatment free bees, and I don't see that as being practical.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

To maintain the tf status, you have to use I.I. for a few seasons on your current bees at the same time
find other compatible tf bees to incorporate into your local apiary. This way the hives can expand while
providing the tf drones to the DCAs. I'm sure we can do it if we keep on trying to find them. Never give up!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

> "requeens that colony with better genetics as soon as possible given the current season."


This is an area of TF management that probably isn't utilized often enough in my opinion. There might be a lot fewer first year heartbreak stories if new beekeepers could really develop an idea on what to look for problem wise and in turn proactively requeen. It can work. Find a reliable source of bees selected for survival. The really good bees from my experience are the ones that will take care of it for me through supersedure. I've had it happen a couple of times where my intention was to requeen and discovered they had already started supersedure. Best of luck wherever your path takes you.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, requeening with the local genetics is another answer. 
Hopefully the mites and diseases can be under control this way. Each season I 
rather requeen with a grafted queen mixed in with the local drones to enhance the
genetics a bit. Late season mated queens can take the hive through another season better.
If the package bees do not show a mite fighting ability then you have to give them a better queen
to ensure a better survival rate.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> beejack1, i'm a fan of one of your fellow canadians, les stroud, and his tv series called 'survivorman'.
> 
> in one of his episodes he talks about 'counting lemons', and what he is referring to are factors contributing to his chances of achieving a good outcome in his survival challenge. basically he is trying to do his best to avoid a '3 lemons' situation.
> 
> ...


Excellent post, I agree with everything. In fact, it should be "required" reading for anyone contemplating going TF.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks ab, i really do appreciate that.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Dan the bee guy said:


> There are things you can do to go treatment free but you should learn how to keep bees alive first then when you think your ready try the treatment free. But not with all your bees.



The logic of this statement by Dan is crystal clear to me. An analogy would be attempting to win the Indy 500 after having just gotten your driver's license at 16. There are LOTS of very basic things that you need to know about ACTUALLY working with bees and making them thrive that cannot be learned by reading books or posts. If TF were as easy as non-TF then everyone would be doing it. My experience shows that it is not. Many very experienced beekeepers (some commercial) on beesource have tried and failed. Success TF to me means 3+ winters with minimal losses and bees that ROCK and ROLL in the springtime. In my early days of experimenting with TF, I would have bees survive, but would come out of our relatively mild winters looking very beat up. I now know that the bees I had at that point were NOT of the type to survive and thrive. To me, bees that are barely surviving or swarm themselves into oblivion prove very little and are of little value. Colonies that survive and make 100 lbs of honey each after being split in late March get my attention.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

beejack1 said:


> I will be starting with bees this spring. I want to go foundationless and treatment free but all the local beekeepers near me treat their bees. I would like to buy local for the overwintering aspect. How would I go about the no treatment route if the bees are used to treatments.


You might try these people in Canada. Debbee's Bees
Address
434 Townline Road
Rideau Lakes, Ontario K0G1V0 
Phone Number
(613)483-8000
Website
debeesbees.ca
Offers:
Queens, 4-frame nucs, package bees

Solomon Parker lists them on his treatment free list. But you should of course make your own determination.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

there can be exceptions to the rule. for example if the beginning beekeeper happens to have a successful tf beekeeper down the road from which to acquire bees and get training from. this happens to have been my experience. unfortunately this is more the exception than it is the rule because it's not often one can find a successful tf beekeeper down the road. (i happen to share ab's definition of success meaning multiple years off treatments and coming out of winter strong enough to be productive).

we also have examples here of tf beekeepers who happen to have a surviving feral population in their areas that have managed to trap swarms and start apiaries relying mostly on information they have gleaned from books and internet sources. it's not the easiest way to get going but it has worked for those who may happen to be good self starters and have access to survivor stock.

but the more common story here on beesource is the 3 lemon scenario described above in which a beginner beekeeper who chose to be treatment free submits a post late in the year wondering why the bees have 'absconded' or are dead. the newbee is typically very surprised given how well the colony had built up all year and especially since no mites were 'seen'.

in addition to being a disheartening loss of time and resources the experience can leave the beginner blaming the outcome on an approach that has appears to have no merit and this sometimes gets reinforced by those espousing a different approach. but in the end the outcome was for the most part predictable and had more to do with the 3 lemons than it did a meritless approach.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think the TF forum is starting to veer in the right direction.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I tried TF to start with. I think anyone can pull it off for their first year. Most of mine crashed and burned the 2nd year. I can pull of TF if I buy mated queens from good TF beekeepers. I can't raise queens and maintain TF, and since you said everyone around you treats, it doesn't sound like you can either. Go into it knowing it may not work.

I didn't start foundationless, but I have tried it. THERE IS NO WAY I WOULD SUGGEST a new beekeeper starting foundationless. It's not as easy as advertised. I won't go down that road again. You won't deal with the heat that I do, so you probably won't have deep frames full of honey collapse in your hives like I did but there's the whole other mess of trying to keep them building it like it needs to be.

Make life easy on yourself. Learn how to keep bees then try the hard stuff. Where the rubber meets the road, being TF and foundationless frames is not an easy way to keep bees.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

This isn't a poke at Brad's post or rebuttal, more of a representation of just how varied beekeeping in general can be, regardless of decisions like whether to treat or not. This statement-


> being TF and foundationless frames is not an easy way to keep bees.


 It's been easy from day one for me. Point being, don't be afraid to try things and branch out on your own, but be prepared for it when things go awry. Study bees. Read everything you can about all sorts of management techniques. Learn about varroa and the diseases that affect bee health. Listen to the advice of others. You'll have a lot to fall back on if you have some knowledge of what you're getting yourself into. Mainly, have fun.


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## tmwilson (Apr 5, 2015)

From the experience I have had I would not assume you can't be treatment free from the start. I started with a swarm and spent way too much time reading hard copy books, beesource, and a few websites put together by experienced beekeepers. It's been a lot of work, but very successful. The first couple of years I kept waiting for all my bees to die because that's what most people said would happen. But I'm stubborn and figured if they could manage in a tree for several years then my bee hive would be acceptable. I have had many issues, but mostly it's from experimenting and/or just simply making an error in my beekeeping strategy. For me it's fun to try new things and see for myself what works and what doesn't. 

Like many others have said, I think it really boils down to having the right bees, which is I'm sure easier said than done. I look at it like raising a crop or an animal. Generally a farmer or rancher selects whichever variety or breed performs well in their given area. All other factors being equal, this usually results in less work and more profit.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Keep in mind that we also live in different part of the country and world.
What works for one area may not work for another because local genetics 
will dominate your apiary eventually. That is why what one experienced in beekeeping
have so much variation leading to our different experiences and how we see our strategic plan 
about keeping them alive. Different location, different bee experiences and different interpretation.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

I agree with beepro, the local bees will dilute your genetics, that's why foundationless is important to my operation, foundationless produces a lot of drones, foundationless is very hard if you started out using foundation, but if your first hives are Top Bar and you transfer to langstroth boxes as I did, it seems easy, mostly because you don't know any better.
To maintain bees with good survival genetics while commercial bee sellers are cranking out thousands of packages that will not survive without strong treatments seems a futile effort. I'm 76 and my beekeeping days are destined to end soon, but for the bees to survive we either have to keep propping up the bees with more and more harsh treatments, or do away with harsh treatments and allow the bees to evolve. How to do that is a whole other discussion.


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## beejack1 (Jan 2, 2017)

Thank you again for all the great info and ideas. I have one good thing going in my favor there are no other keepers near me so any queens I do eventually raise will have a lot of feral drone to breed with. I am hoping this will be a good thing. Thanks again.
Jack


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

beejack1 said:


> I have one good thing going in my favor there are no other keepers near me so any queens I do eventually raise will have a lot of feral drone to breed with.


Jack,

Not trying to cast shade on your exuberance, butgiven your location squarepeg's lemon number 2 may be difficult to avoid. Perhaps you're connected with other TF in New Brunswick? Did you mention where you plan to get bees this spring? Have you determined if there are truly feral colonies surviving near by? Also keep in mind that overwintering bees in New Brunswick could pose a challenge for even seasoned beekeepers. I do hope the best for you in this and please keep us posted on how this goes. Also, ask a lot of questions!!


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

beejack1 said:


> all the local beekeepers near me treat their bees.





beejack1 said:


> there are no other keepers near me


So which is it?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

astrobee raises a good point about being located in the far north. after making the 3 lemons post i realized i probably should have included being in the far north as being at least a half lemon. 

one reason being that having to survive a very long and cold winter without the opportunity for cleansing flights adds a challenge to the bees that we don't have here in the south.

another reason being that some of our contributors here who live in the far north are reporting that there are no ferals, however there is at least one contributor from canada who is successfully trapping swarms from ferals. i guess it depends exactly where you are located.

one thing you might consider jack as a way to assess what if any bee population you have in your immediate area, is to put out quail feeders in various locations with a little 1:1 syrup spiked a few drops of lemongrass oil. if those feeders attract foragers and you know there aren't any kept bees nearby it could mean there are ferals in the area.

then, if you have the time and motivation you could read up on and give 'bee lining' a go to see if you can locate where the bees are coming from. also, it would give you some confidence that setting out swarm traps might yield some catches.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

beepro said:


> Different location, different bee experiences and different interpretation.


Precisely right. Had I gone into beekeeping having read Beesource (this isn't a crack at this amazing forum or it's varied cast of forum contributors) the take away I would have had would be that what I was trying to do was very well next to impossible. That might be the reality, but I'm not so certain that I somehow won the lottery on location. There are probably a lot more locations out there suitable for TF apiaries than we realize. Perhaps it's like the news, you never hear the good news, only the bad. You hear from new beeks when their hives are crashing. They need help. You have to imagine there are many out there having success that we never hear from.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

SP said how it is, there is no better description:



> i think a similar analogy can be made with first year beekeeping, and the survival we are talking about is that of your first year colonies.
> 
> i can vouch for the comments shared by the others that one's first year with beekeeping is full of challenges and has a fairly steep learning curve. having to learn everything from scratch with your colonies bearing the brunt of that learning process is enough to count as one lemon.
> 
> ...


So it is and hopefully there will be more tf beginners who take a stand and do not leave after the first bashing they get...... and do not only post their success but their failures and setbacks too and be encouraged to go on and are helped, not criticized.
"Did you treat?" "how did you treat" "your hives will crash" "you will have no bees in your fifth year" don´t listen to...it´s not working" and and and and and.....

It should not be necessary to do all the discussions and cries for help by pm. 

It´s all about respect and the intention to be tf is to be respected as much as anybody´s own ideas about how to proceed.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thank you sibylle.

in fairness i believe it is just as important for those of us in the treatment free camp to be respectful of those who are treating and there have been occasions as well when this has not been the case. 

those that have been following my posts have seen that i am just as quick to call out unfair comments without regard to which side of the approach they are levied.

all in all my sense is that the majority of members here are open minded, are following what we do with interest, and are hoping to see progress made as much and perhaps even more so than those of us working with and working toward having resistant bees.


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## beejack1 (Jan 2, 2017)

When I talk about local I mean anyone within 50 miles of me. The closest one to me is about 8 to 10 miles. There is one fairly large keeper 20 miles from me. He has 350 hives. This is where I will get my bees. He only treats for varoa, not sure what he uses. We have no SMB here.
Jack


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Absolutely, SP is spot on, as usual. And I agree Sibylle, people should not be ridiculed for giving it an honest go. Nobody likes a "told you so." The best lessons are often learned the hard way. I just don't want a new beekeeper who very well may have the resources around him/her that allow TF success to be discouraged by much of the discussion that occurs on this forum regarding the seeming impossibility of it all, if TF is the goal. They equally may not have the proper resources to make it work. Point being, it's sort of hard to tell if you don't try. I had no idea if there were feral bees here or not starting out. My initial feeling on the matter was that it was highly unlikely. There still might not be a feral population, I have no proof otherwise. The bees came from somewhere. The feral explanation is the best guess for what's occurring based on observations of others as well as my own. My opinion is where these pockets of bees exist, we should try and encourage TF beekeeping to sustain the populations, not work against them, especially if they are as rare as they are portrayed. Why set someone on a path of treatment if they don't have to? I've heard many treatment folks on this forum say they'd stop treatments today if they could. My guess is some of them probably could stop treating. That guess could be entirely incorrect as well. You very well could be entering into a high stakes game when initially taking the step of TF, but when it works, it's worth it.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

what i like best about your story nordak is the part about recognizing you had a colony in trouble with mites and had success by requeening it with more proven genetics.

being able to monitor for and recognize trouble should be an important part of what a beginner needs to gain proficiency with. what to do should trouble arise is what we are trying to figure out in the ipm thread.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

squarepeg said:


> being able to monitor for and recognize trouble should be an important part of what a beginner needs to gain proficiency with. what to do should trouble arise is what we are trying to figure out in the ipm thread.


Yeah, bit of a segue there on my part. It's been an enlightening conversation, and have enjoyed it. Very civil as well, which is good. I'm definitely in the camp that says doing nothing is no good. It's nice not to have to babysit, but there are times action is needed to minimize loss, especially for the first year beekeeper, and it doesn't stop there. Good management practice is the place to start. Lots of good observation and knowledge here.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

This thread seems to be on a better track than the IPM one started earlier, so I will post my methods here, as I had been asked to share my track toward "treatment free". I will tell you all up front that I don't ever expect to fall into the Solomon Parker's category for truly Treatment Free, but I have no intention of ever putting a miticide or organic acid on my bees.

I had wanted to keep bees for over 20 years, but had a young family and someone else in the house that was against it. Circumstances changed by 2013 and the kids grew up so I went looking for what's new in beekeeping. In the mean time, I had spent those years planting up my yard with lots of trees and shrubs for all the pollinators and didn't use chemicals in the garden or on the bushes (mainly because I was too thrifty to spend the money). 

In my bee research, I found a topbar hive kit from Beeline Apiary for $150 and I thought I'd give it a try because I wasn't all that sure I really wanted to be into beekeeping and I wasn't quite as spry as I had been all those years ago so the No-lifting, no-bending sounding like a very good benefit. I never bought into the concept that topbar hives were somehow "more natural" or "more healthy" for bees, but I do think the "single story" beehive might behave a little bit differently than the multi-storied Langstroth hives.

So in 2013, I convinced a longtime Lang beekeeper to get my topbar hive started with his bees. He makes nucs for many people in the Hampton area, but I have no idea if he was using chemicals on his bees. From what I understand, most of the veteran beekeepers in this area do not use them. (Astrobee-is that what you also know from the other clubs you belong to in our area?)

First year was 1 colony. Second year (2014), I bought a package from Oliverez in California. Couldn't believe how huge that queen was compared to the local mutt in my other colony. Funny thing was, the California bees just sat in their hive on 45 degree days in the winter while the local mutts were out collecting from the mahonia and camellias that were blooming. In 2014, I did splits and bought a second local mutt queen from the guy who got me started, so I had 5 colonies going into winter. I also started holding a monthly meeting for beekeepers that wanted to keep bees in topbar hives so we could all talk about our successes and failures, and gain from each other's experiences.

That's when I started honing in on what my management practices were so that I could communicate them with other people. These were mostly gardeners like me who liked the idea of having a backyard beehive or two. They wanted a little bit of honey to harvest for themselves and friends, but they were not raising bees for "Honey". I also realized that if the topbar beehive group was to grow, I was going to have to raise the nucs to get these people started so I began making 10 nucs a year and raising the queens for them.

All my colonies are on screened bottom boards with a solid IPM board underneath, that I keep installed as long as the heat of the summer will allow. Each IPM board is covered with diatomaceous earth, and refreshed as often as weekly if necessary. The bees run the small hives beetles down there and stuff the larvae of SHB and wax moths down there. any mites that fall off are also trapped in the dust and don't return to reinfest the bee colony. Very important that the bees don't roll around in the dust.

Each colony is also treated monthly with powdered sugar on each comb. Not the brush-it-between-the-frames stuff that Randy Oliver talks about and then so easily dismisses as something that doesn’t work. Each comb is turned on its head and liberally coated taking care not to get it in the cells with developing larvae. Special care is also taken with the comb the queen is on so she does not lose her footing and fall outside the hive. But she gets dusted right along with the rest of them. After an hour, I remove the solid IPM board that had DE dust on it, and is now covered in powdered sugar and any mites, and discard the dust in the trash can so I don’t draw ants. The DE is reapplied and the board slid back into place.

I will also cull capped drone comb at certain times of the year after I am done with the majority of my queen rearing, or if the colony gets too ambitious with raising a ton of drones. And the fact that I raise my own queens, means I am using locally adapted survivor bees from my own hives. No special breeder queens, although I do bring in a treatment-free queen here and there from Sam Comfort and Wildflower Meadows to introduce those genes into the local pool of bees.

I also like most of my large hives to undergo a mid summer brood break by pulling the queen over to a nuc and letting the main hive requeen with "planned" emergency queen cells. Meaning, they have soft new comb with fresh eggs to easily rework into queen cells. During the requeening, I do weekly powder sugar shakes to really knock back the mite population before fall.

And I do not use a smoker, but rather a spray bottle with water and anise oil. There is an Egyptian study that says Anise Oil is one of the essential oils that helps control mite reproduction. There are only a few drops per bottle, so I'm not sure if that has anything to do with controlling the mites, but it could be small piece of it. In any case, the anise oil is primarily used to cover up the bee pheromones as I work the hives, which is usually work them weekly.

I’m sure some of you will wonder if I do sugar shakes or ether rolls to measure the mite count, and I don't do them. Maybe someday if I get to switch jobs, but far too busy for that. I will say I had a Control Hive this past 2016 season. Someone gave me a Perdue miter biter queen and I installed her in a hive, still with the screened bottom and IPM board with DE dust, but I did not give her the brood break or do the frequent powder sugar shake on that hive. The hive was fantastic, even ran a pollen trap on it, and I did uncap drone brood at various points in the year to check for mites, which showed a very low level. 

Thought maybe these special queens were the “silver bullet” in varroa control, but during the January blizzard, that was my only hive to perish. The queen survived with about 50 workers, but the rest were dead on the bottom. I did do a sugar roll on them at that time, because I could see mites on the bees (including the queen) and deformed wings on one worker. After the sugar shake and getting 4 mites, I followed up with an ether roll on the same group of bees and got 2 more. Then I counted the bees since I was guestimating that I had a half a cup of bees. Turns out I only had 175 bees, and they had 6 mites in the group, so really high mite numbes. I moved the queen and remaining workers over to a nuc and did a powder sugar shake on them. Checked on her 2 weeks later and they had groomed the mite off of her thorax and they seem to be plodding on, even while getting robbed out by the other bees in my apiary.

My overwinter hive losses to mites are usually zero. This year, it will be the one hive, but I almost don’t count that one since I wasn’t using my usual methods on it. I lost 2 hives last year that were very tiny splits that froze, and were not varroa related losses. (my small splits all have heaters this year). I currently have one queen from spring 2014 and one from fall 2015. Had another 2014 queen, but she flew the coop this fall when I moved her out of the main hive and into a nuc to requeen the main hive. I will be making my spring nucs from queen cells of the 2014 queen that I still have. She was a great honey producer as well, although the levels of honey in a topbar hive don’t equate to what a Langstroth hive might make.

So all those different steps are things I teach the newbee backyard beekeepers. It may not be truly treatment free, but I don’t want these people to stick their head in the sand and ignore the problem of mites and run-of-the-mill packages from down south. I hope the Beesource Treatment Free forum will find ways to engage the basic beekeeper in helping them understand the problem and even the small steps they can take toward being part of the solution. 

It’s next to impossible to take a beginner beekeeper who would love the idea of “treatment free” beekeeping (because they think that means “hands off” beekeeping) and tell them “expect to lose over half your hives each year and just breed from the survivors” and think that they are going to want to get into that type of beekeeping or even do that for more than a year or two. We need to be realistic in our expectations and provide a reasonable path for them to follow. More treatment free nuc producers would be great, but if they can’t be found, then requeen early in the season with a treatment free or hygienic queen. But that alone is probably not enough.

Sorry for the long post, but I had a lot to say.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very informative ruthie! thanks for sharing how you do it without chemicals or drugs. combined with monitoring and dusting only as indicated i can see how this might be an attractive path for some toward very limited or no treatments.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Not to change the subject, but I am intrigued by your starting a TBH group, Ruth. It's something I've thought about doing in the future and would be interested in more on how that came about for you. Would you mind of I PM'd you sometime to get some insight?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Nordak said:


> Not to change the subject, but I am intrigued by your starting a TBH group, Ruth. It's something I've thought about doing in the future and would be interested in more on how that came about for you. Would you mind of I PM'd you sometime to get some insight?


Sure, Nordak, that would be fine.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Ruth,
would you mind me copying your story into my forum to translate it for my co-workers?
To me it`s an example of good work and I would like to use it as discussion topic in my next meeting.
It could be a way for some of us to be tf.

Thanks for sharing!


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> Ruth,
> would you mind me copying your story into my forum to translate it for my co-workers?
> To me it`s an example of good work and I would like to use it as discussion topic in my next meeting.
> It could be a way for some of us to be tf.
> ...


Sure SiWolke. Just please reference my topbar beehive Facebook page for people if they have questions. I hope to write a book in a couple of years and I just gave y'all the basics of it in that one post.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

ruthiesbees said:


> From what I understand, most of the veteran beekeepers in this area do not use them. (Astrobee-is that what you also know from the other clubs you belong to in our area?)


I believe that's true. There are a good number of beekeepers in the area who are successfully keeping bees alive long term without any form of varroa management. That said, there are also some veteran beekeepers who have seen large losses in the recent past. One in VA Beach is losing a large percentage of his bees each year for the past several years. He's TF, but I don't considered it a viable example. Further, I've been asked to help local beekeepers whose colonies were struggling and when I inspect I find massive varroa populations. These people didn't monitor or treat. So we're in an area that TF seems very possible by the average beekeeper, but as you'd expect you can't simply buy a package and forget about it.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

ruthiesbees said:


> My overwinter hive losses to mites are usually zero.


Lovely post and fascinating approach to beekeeping. (I suspect that there is more to your not wanting to do alcohol washes than the time. I don't use them because I am happy with the performance of my hives, and I don't care to kill the bees. And because of the trouble.) So, would you be willing to leave one of your mutt queened colonies alone like you did the mite-biter colony? I am curious whether your bees are developing mite _tolerance_ (and resistance to mite vectored viruses) as opposed to mite _resistance_, and whether your mites and viruses are adapting by becoming a little less lethal, if I am stating that in a way that makes sense.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Riverderwent said:


> So, would you be willing to leave one of your mutt queened colonies alone like you did the mite-biter colony? I am curious whether your bees are developing mite _tolerance_ (and resistance to mite vectored viruses) as opposed to mite _resistance_, and whether your mites and viruses are adapting by becoming a little less lethal, if I am stating that in a way that makes sense.


I have the privilege of providing my dead-out bees to Dr. Lisa Horth of Old Dominion University to be part of her current study on mites and honeybees. She just came to speak at our January club meeting and left her contact info if we had a dead-out colony due to mites. Timing was just perfect to get connected with her studies. She will be picking up the frozen specimens on Feb 9 and having her grad student run the tests to see if the bees had a variety of viruses. She promises to share the results with me and I will pass them along to the group.

As for leaving one of my mutt queens alone, unless I can locate an outyard to place a colony, I'd have a hard time leaving them alone to their own devices for so long. I will say the 2014 queen that I currently have in my apiary was left to their own devices from June 2014 until May 2016 when she came to live in my apiary. I am the mentor for the beek that had her, and she wanted to do a split of her hive last spring and also get a fresh queen for 2016. I asked to hang onto the old gal in case the new queens did not take.

When I went over to her yard to do the splits and take the extra queen and queen cells, I was shocked at the mite level in her hive. Even mites in the capped queen cells. She uses the same hive setup as I do, but she is not good about the powder sugar shakes or refreshing the DE on the IPM board. The one split from her hive was given to her friend and I do not know the outcome of that split. The hive that remained in her yard failed to have the virgin return, but she got a boatload of honey from them. I gave her one of the mated daughters of her queen to requeen her hive, but the bees ended up swarming later in the season and by the time she realized the problem, small hive beetles had ruined her comb.

She will get a nuc from me this spring with another one of the daughter queens from her original queen, so maybe I should make a point of following their progress so we can see if it is tolerance vs. resistance.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

Post # 53 by RuthiesBees should be commended as what this subforum was originally created to accomplish. That is various treatment free people at various stages of their journey sharing what they are doing. Not some anti small cell person questioning every little fact offered. I would like to thank RuthiesBees for the time and effort she took to write the post.


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## beejack1 (Jan 2, 2017)

I appreciate all of the input from everyone. It is a learning experience for me and with all the help I am getting here I am sure it will go a long way to my end goal. Thank you all again. I look forward to all the different ideas expressed. 
Jack


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## btt221 (Apr 7, 2016)

ruthiesbees said:


> "... I will tell you all up front that I don't ever expect to fall into the Solomon Parker's category for truly Treatment Free, but I have no intention of ever putting a miticide or organic acid on my bees.


Solomon Parker's Treatment Free falls a bit short when he feeds his bees granular processes sugar to get hives short on winter stores through the winter. Other than that I like his rapid expansion model for treatment free bee keeping.

When you go the route of treatment free you have to ask yourself what is the purpose for being a bee keeper? Is it to:

1. harvest truly clean honey
2. harvest truly uncontaminated wax
3. provide pollination for the garden-orchard
or
4. ...

For me it is 1 and 2 above. Therefore, I would not want to introduce processed sugar (a foreign substance) into the hive and risk having the honey reduced to lower quality.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Randy Olivers view sent today: Scientific Beekeeping [email protected] via mail120.atl91.mcsv.net 
10:39 AM (3 hours ago)

to me 
Hi All,

Thanks to heroic efforts by my web technician Jane, my last 17 articles are now posted to the site. Please refer to the Articles by Publication date page.

My "Understanding Colony Buildup and Decline" series is now completely posted. The intent of this series is to give the beekeeper a deeper understanding of the biological processes and changes in the colony over the course of a year, thus allowing one to make informed management decisions specific to their region and desired outcomes.

There are also five new beekeeper-funded research articles:
Probiotics and Colony Productivity
A Test of Late-Summer Varroa Treatments
Is There A Multiplier Effect From The Feeding Of Sugar Syrup?
Light or Heavy Syrup For Drawing Foundation?
Beyond Taktic--Oxalic/glycerin shop towels

The Beyond Taktic article has gotten great attention, not only in the U.S., but worldwide, and from the commercial as well as the hobby sector. It describes a novel time-release application method for oxalic acid--by dissolving the acid in glycerin and then applying it on a shop towel. A similar method was first used in Argentina; I sought to improve it. It puts a very valuable new tool into our arsenal of treatments for managing varroa--one that is safe to apply, organically-approved, non-contaminating, and effective. I am currently working with EPA to get it approved for use.

The OA/glycerin towels are still a work in progress, and I'm counting on beekeepers worldwide to perfect the method. If you come up with an improvement, please let me know. If you wish to receive updates on the method, send me an email with the words "OA List" on the subject line (no words in the text please).

I've now begun a new series--"The Varroa Problem." In this series I hope to help beekeepers worldwide to transition from chemical control of varroa, to handing the fight over to the bees themselves.

In this series I approach The Varroa Problem realistically, based upon biology and practicality rather than idealism alone (I am not a proponent of the needlessly destructive "Bond Method," nor of well-intentioned, but misinformed "Treatment Free" beekeeping).

My intent is to help beekeepers to shift from a perpetual dependence upon synthetic miticides, to the adoption of regionally-adapted mite-resistant breeds of bees. One can avoid pain during the transition by using effective "natural" treatments that leave fewer or no harmful residues in our combs. If we beekeepers work together in our local communities, we can all be part of the solution to The Varroa Problem.

I am profoundly grateful for the heartfelt support and encouragement that I receive from beekeepers worldwide. It is your donations that fund the long hours and hard field work involved in my research and writing. I limit advertising to four bee supply sponsors, which pays for site maintenance--please show them your appreciation.
==============================================


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

btt221 said:


> Solomon Parker's Treatment Free.......... Other than that I like his rapid expansion model for treatment free bee keeping.


I have thought about the expansion model much because in europe, when some people do it, the losses are so high, sometimes 100%, and how to go on if no starters left?

These small splits, some tell me they make 30 out of 4, have to draw comb, raise queens, build up, defend their hives, store enough for winter.

Left on their own too much, which is often practiced with the aim to let nature decide which one is a survivor, seems to me not a good idea.

I, for myself, have no experience with this, having made strong splits so far ( which have disadvantages too IMHO) . What`s your opinion?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

30 splits from 4 good hives peak season is not unreasonable, when I make nucs I'll do up to 12 nucs from a big hive, leave the queen and one broodcomb in the origional hive and just let returning feild bees re stock it.

To do this is best during a decent flow and the bees have to be healthy and high morale.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> 30 splits from 4 good hives peak season is not unreasonable, when I make nucs I'll do up to 12 nucs from a big hive, leave the queen and one broodcomb in the origional hive and just let returning feild bees re stock it.
> 
> To do this is best during a decent flow and the bees have to be healthy and high morale.


Do you let them draw comb? Do you feed or donate honey comb?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

btt221 said:


> Solomon Parker's Treatment Free....t I like his rapid expansion model for treatment free bee keeping.


Except Solomon's expansion is not, his growth has been negative. He went from 30>14>6 from 2014-spring 2016. He tried to build to 30 or more this year with aggressive splitting and saw all his splits crash. Fall count was 11. He posted massive mited hive pix in the autumn. The exact count in midwinter is ambiguous but appears to be about the 6 he started with.

Cite:


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Thanks, JWC, much to learn from this quote.
Expansion model per se is maybe not bad but could be go bad with environmental circumstances.

Stephan Braun from ResistantBees Forum told us once, if the splits are too small the density of bees is not enough for mite defense (VSH) even if the other factors are ok.
This would mean the defense is less important to the bees while building up, even if they are "resistant", and leads to mites breeding like crazy and the bees later maybe overcome by infestation or disease.
Sounds logical to me.

I saw this already with a friends colonies who made the splits so weak even wax moth larvae just walked around inside. The mother was a very good old VSH queen. 
His losses are 80% this winter so far.

So the question is, how to split.
I hope more people here tell their experience.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

SiWolKe said:


> Do you let them draw comb? Do you feed or donate honey comb?


Yes of course I let them draw comb . In a way, that's my job. I get bees to draw comb, and I convert food into bees, that's what I do.  

No I don't feed nucs as in syrup, they get honey. What I actually do is use 4 frame nuc boxes and put 3 frames in. Typically they get a comb of feed against the side, then a comb of brood, and then an empty comb or comb of foundation on the outside. Next day they get a queen cell. Just over a month later they get checked at this time it is possible to check brood pattern. Any nucs where the queen failed to mate get combined with other nucs which can boost the weakest of them.



SiWolKe said:


> Expansion model per se is maybe not bad but could be go bad with environmental circumstances.


I don't know what expansion model beekeeping is. All other beekeepers just call it making increase. Any increase has to be done as you say, in sympathy with the environment. There is nothing wrong with making increase but reading what Solomon wrote is really just what happens when a person does everything wrong. So setting up nucs then letting them get robbed, then not really knowing why, is an example of where extreme hard bond doesn't work. I think Sol has been so obsessed with non intervention, letting the bees deal with everything, style of beekeeping, that he just hasn't ever learned a whole lot about bees. If a person sets nucs up it has to be done in a way they will not get robbed, and that varies with season and place. Just plonking a bunch of nucs out, allowing them to be robbed, then wondering why, is not expansion model beekeeping, it's stupidity.

I'm not against hard bond as an idea, or as a theory. For some people it has worked, depending how "worked" is defined. But hard bond didn't work for me, and I think there are better ways, or at least ways better suited for some circumstances. After 12 years and making hundreds of splits and catching swarms, Sol has 6 hives. He doesn't know if any of his origional stock are left, or only new swarms. So the question for him is, did hard bond "work".


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> If a person sets nucs up it has to be done in a way they will not get robbed, and that varies with season and place.


Can you tell me more about this, OT? How do you prevent robbery?

Well, different views, different opinions, but I like Sol`s honesty to tell about this, and I´m convinced, this path has it`s advantage since I know people who had success with this and setbacks should not always lead us to judge the whole project.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, I'll give him 9/10 for honesty. He doesn't get 10/10 because he blamed buying the wrong kind of sugar, the season, that kind of thing. 

Preventing robbery, well that is the most important aspect of what I do, it's key. And so it should be for everybody. Because a new queenless split is absolutely vulnerable.

Some main basics are that if there is a heavy flow you don't have to worry about robbing it won't happen. But in all other conditions new queenless nucs should be moved out of flying range of the parent hives. After that, don't feed syrup. Then, if it's a 3 frame nuc, the feed comb should be against the wall and a comb of brood next to it, giving the bees the best chance to cover and defend that comb. The outside comb must be empty, bees can't defend it. The nuc must be stocked with enough bees to defend their stores. If a nuc is weak in bees it isn't given much stores either, so it can cover and defend what it has. Entrances must be small, mine are 2 bees wide. That's the basics. Something though, all these rules can be broken, by experienced beekepers. But if not sure, follow those rules.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Hey thanks OT. Very good information.

If all hives, nucs and parents, have honey stores all the time, do they still rob? What´s your experience?

Today I got the new bee journal and there was an interview with Prof. Dr. Kaspar Bienefeld www.smartbees.eu 
He said among other things:


> The tolerance to virus disease changes amazingly from apiary to apiary and *could be influenced by food supply*.


They test this now.
The foraging possibilities and honey harvesting and artificial feeding could be a main factor.

How many hives are the limit at one location if you don´t migrate? Everyone should think about this.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

I TOTALLY understand and realize this is the Treatment Free Forum. Treatment free honey bees are a distant goal that MANY are working towards. I for one anxiously await the day when honey bees nationwide or even better worldwide develop the genetics and adapt to become treatment free or even relatively treatment free. In my earlier days of "beekeeping" (read bee losing) I vowed NEVER to use any chemical or organic acids to treat mites, only food grade and naturally occurring compounds. The problem is that the mites are rapidly developing resistance to just about everything mankind tries. Gradually the natural and chemical free methods become ineffective to the point that the mites are able to breach the "economic threshold" in the number of varroa mites that the colony can tolerate. Varroa mites have even begun to develop resistance to Amitraz. Hence the reason for Randy Oliver's article "Beyond Tactic" That having been said, there are NO treatment free bees for the most part although there may be pockets of colonies that DO survive and are successful in tolerating Varroa mites. Move these colonies to another region of the country and they usually crash. 

Treatment of our bees IS essential as bad as that sounds and as bad as I would like that fact of life NOT to be. When you raise bees treatment free, more time than not what you are doing is managing for what is cordially known as Varroa Bombs.

http://www.beeculture.com/downtown-3/

I recently attended a Winter Advanced Beekeeping Workshop in Nashville in which Jennifer Berry and Clarenc Collison gave presentations on this very topic as well as others. Both especially Jennifer Berry were of the view that treatment free beekeeping was tantamount to managing for Varroa Bombs that can and DO cause tremendous damage to neighboring beekeepers. Although Ms. Berry's is more focused on queen rearing, she expressed a great concern that bordered on anger about this.

For those who monitor their hives for varroa mite levels and treat when those maximum allowable levels are exceeded, this works relatively well but is not perfect. It DOES allow the beekeeper to manage the level of varroa mite infestation well below what is termed the "economic threshold" thus allowing the hives to remain relatively healthy and production. 

All it take is for just ONE beekeeper who does NOT treat their bee or do anything "effective" to keep their mite load below the economic threshold and every other beekeeper within flying distance of these mite infested hives which eventually collapse, the queen typically dies, and the remaining bee abscond looking for a new home to escape the varroa mite carnage. When they rob, drift into neighboring hives, or in some way come in contact with the neighboring beekeeper who has been treating and properly managing their hives........all of their hard work and expense for treating their hives is essentially destroyed when the "treatment free" and mite invested bees that have absconded come to their apiary. 

I am NOT posting this in the spirit of scolding anyone but to hopefully present a different point of view and the drastic need to change our beekeeping practices so that we ALL benefit. Treatments of our hives as Randy Oliver has written about is merely a temporary stop gap measure until research and development can bring the beekeeping community and industry a honey bee that is tolerant of Varroa mites.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Hi Live Oak.

I´m only able to speak about my situation but I don´t think I will wait until I´m on my deathbed to have tf bees.

So I hope the forums will help the tf interested beekeepers to be responsible.
I´m convinced it is possible to keep the mites at bay without chemicals if you learn how.

I read that the conference : www.beeaudacious.org sees the tf beekeepers not longer as a dangerous threat.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

live oak, welcome to the discussion and i appreciate the concern expressed in your post.

there were many contributors on both sides of the issue who took the opportunity to express their opinions here:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275161-treatment-free-beekeeping-the-risks

please note that it is not as black and white as treating or not treating when it comes to preventing mite bombs and the spreading of mites to nearby colonies. we have had several reports recently here on beesource about colonies collapsing despite being treated for mites, presumably due to ineffective or perhaps improperly applied treatments.

your admonition to prevent the spreading of mites (and we might as well throw american foul brood and other communicable bee diseases in there as well) is a serious responsibility that we all have as beekeepers, treating or not.

please also note that it's going to be difficult to advance our stock forward without challenging the colonies to develop natural resistance and treating indiscreetly across the board is counterproductive to that. 

it will be interesting to see what randy presents in his next article with regard how we transition from where we are today to where he believes we need to get to going forward.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

SiWolKe said:


> Hi Live Oak.
> 
> I´m only able to speak about my situation but I don´t think I will wait until I´m on my deathbed to have tf bees.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. I tried looking at the link you provided but my anti-virus software blocked it as showing that particular website as containing malicious software. I would be careful logging onto that website. 

We will have to respectfully agree to disagree on this point. I believe you may find more than a few in the research and development arena my disagree with you as well.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

The mite bomb myth has been dispensed with. Pure hypocrisy in the big picture of things. No anger for the egregious practices that brought these problems in the first place, and will bring new problems in the future. Not to say the near neighbor effects of mite bombs should be ignored. Starting off with proper bees is a start, and I would like to see a best practices management to deal with mite/virus infested hives in late summer and fall. 

But what I really came on here to say. 

On a flow its not hard to get a nuc going. With 2 frames of brood, a nuc is full of bees by the time a queen is laying, and they will have filled a couple of frames with honey. I have had some so prolific that I have had a nuc build into 3 medium 5 frame boxes swarm on me in spite of me stealing brood from them on a regular basis. 

So I find small splits in the right size box, very motivated. Early nucs are building to 15 even 20 combs by fall feeding. And nuc sized boxes are useful in giving them the bits of space they need as they grow. 

Its the management during the August dearth that is more challenging. I'm considering feeding at this time to maintain momentum into winter. But that could be a problem if there are full size hives around.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Live oak
I think the worrying about other beekeepers practices affecting those that treat is perhaps what some worry about but I hear there are more wild hives then managed hives. 

I also wonder if those who keep bees and treat are not the ones adversly affecting the wild hives and the nontreater.

I am thinking that the moral the story in my mind is that if you are going to keep bees, In the end, you might as well worry only about how you keep them and how they do when you keep them as you do. Unless you are a billionare and own ten square miles or your own island, worrying about all those things that are out of your control is kinda a waste of time.

I see these positions taken from all sides and though I may be too new to know the ends and out of the whole situation, I just can't see thinking about what others are doing and how they are doing it. 

Call me a non believer that all these things are really in control even from the people who think they have control.

I am glad there are not more laws on the books of people with the answer cause at this point, I would not think any answer could have a good enough case made to make it the correct answer.
Cheers and with the best of wishes to all.
gww


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

squarepeg said:


> live oak, welcome to the discussion and i appreciate the concern expressed in your post.
> 
> there were many contributors on both sides of the issue who took the opportunity to express their opinions here:
> 
> ...


I will definitely agree with you that there are NO black & white issues, rules, or practices in beekeeping. 

Perhaps I may have misinterpreted your comment with respect to American Foul Brood but if you are implying that there is or may be a treatment for AFB, yes there are treatments for it but NONE of them will actually cure or totally wipe it out with the exception of ONE........that would be burning EVERYTHING that has come in contact with the infected hive if it will burn and sterilizing the remaining implements by heating them to temperatures in excess of 320 degrees some argue more. In states like Tennessee it is the law. 

I definitely agree that it will be very difficult going forward to find a mite resistant stock. 

I too will be looking forward to Randy's next article on this issue.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

While I understand your point Live Oak, your post is relevant to irresponsible beekeepers, not solely treatment free ones. While I understand that mite collapse can happen through robbing transfer, it seems to me that perhaps this scenario is being played very much like the boogeyman by many. How does the average beekeeper come to the conclusion that his hive crashed via the local "leave 'em bee" neighbor? It would be hard to prove that were the case.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

gww said:


> I also wonder if those who keep bees and treat are not the ones adversly affecting the wild hives and the nontreater.


Agree with this. Both treaters and non treaters are responsible for mite bombs and in my opinion any side bashing the other over this is needless argument. A treated apiary may not ever have any mite bombs in it, but the swarms it generates will, cuts both ways.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> A treated apiary may not ever have any mite bombs in it, but the swarms it generates will, cuts both ways.


very good point ot, especially given how challenging it is to be 100% successful with respect to swarm prevention.

many thanks to all for keeping the discussion on topic and civil.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

My 3 mite bombs died in winter so no threat to the treatment fraction.

In my group there are two people who treat and our bees mix ( 3.5km). They count less mites since I´m near them.  Now they want to try the soft bond. It´s a beginning!

Iharder,
thanks. I´m really happy to learn so much again and maybe I will try some small splits this year. Maybe not just as small but more numbers out of one.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sibylle, my method for making splits is exactly the same as oldtimer's, except that i am using 5 frame boxes instead of 4 frame boxes.

i like to have about 3 frames of bees with a frame or so of brood, some honey, some pollen, and a frame or two of foundation. as ot recommends a month after placing the queen cells the splits were not successful getting a mated queen get combined with splits did get a mated queen and have the fewest bees.

i usually move the splits to one of my other yards to prevent fly back to the donor hive and this helps keep the number of bees in each one more consistent. i also try to put the queen cells into splits that are in a different yard than the yard from which the grafts were taken to help with genetic diversity.

i'm doing this mostly during our strong main flow so no feeding is required, and i have not experienced robbing even though the splits and the larger established colonies are in the same yards.


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## erikebrown (Oct 27, 2014)

billabell said:


> Randy Olivers view sent today:
> ...
> I've now begun a new series--"The Varroa Problem." In this series I hope to help beekeepers worldwide to transition from chemical control of varroa, to handing the fight over to the bees themselves.


billabell, I really appreciated this post. I hadn't realized Randy had put up some new material. His four-part series on Varroa is a really interesting read. The part about how we are making Varroa and DMV even more virulent with current (treatment-based) practices was especially interesting. It's a great series if you haven't read it:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-varroa-problem-part-1​
Erik


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

To the OP in New Brunswick:

A lot of the angst that new beekeepers in the US experience stems from our use of packages, which are more likely to die (http://mysare.sare.org/sare_project/fne12-756/?page=final&view=print) in the north. In Canada, and the UK, nucs are the normal way to start with beekeeping, and they are from overwintered stock. So that is an easier path if you can get it! The trick is learning (quickly) to pay attention to the right signs. Sounds like you are doing a lot of reading which is the best way to be informed (aside from doing beekeeping)! I too really got a lot from Michael Bush's book. 

As for having feral stock nearby, one idea is to set up a swarm trap. Basically a deep with either queen pheromone or an old empty brood frame/comb (might be able to buy one from a beek). The brood comb is very attractive to scouts from swarms. Also, T. Seeley just published a fabulous read about beelining - basically hunting feral colonies. Then you can have a sense of who is in the area...

And feral colonies are not always the bees' knees. I had a hive with low mite counts, NO mite poops (so no mites reproducing in the cells), die of mites around the end of Dec. Looking at my notes, I saw that 10/29/17 that hive was returning from robbing. I can see the backyards around me, and no one else has bees nearby - but there are several feral colonies, especially east of me. Well, there is at least one left. So I was on the receiving end of a mite bomb from a feral colony that got overrun with mites (at least that's my hypothesis  ). Ferals can be a source of swarmy, small-colonied, too-thrifty bee stock - or they can be amazing survivor stock. 

Thanks to all who post their stories/experiences/best guesses - I have gotten so much out of reading everyone's tales. And their questions! And as with all alternative paths, it is important to stay focused on your goal and consider the source of any advice with special care. And stay humble...Keep us posted!!!


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

SiWolKe said:


> My 3 mite bombs died in winter so no threat to the treatment fraction.
> 
> In my group there are two people who treat and our bees mix ( 3.5km). They count less mites since I´m near them.  Now they want to try the soft bond. It´s a beginning!
> 
> ...


Yes I think its worth while to try and see if it works. When such excellent beekeepers as oldtimer and m palmer utilize these methods very successfully... We can theorize about what works and doesn't work in our situations, but until we try it... I can see the appeal for big splits, especially if survival stabilizes. But in my situation, I believe extra numbers are useful as my genetics is still very variable. In this cold winter I see about the same survival in my big vs nuc hives.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> sibylle, my method for making splits is exactly the same as oldtimer's, except that i am using 5 frame boxes instead of 4 frame boxes.
> 
> i like to have about 3 frames of bees with a frame or so of brood, some honey, some pollen, and a frame or two of foundation. as ot recommends a month after placing the queen cells the splits were not successful getting a mated queen get combined with splits did get a mated queen and have the fewest bees.
> 
> ...


Thanks SP. Yes, I purchased 5 frame boxes, which I will use for the queen splits. 
The queenless I will have in my deeps, because last year they needed much place for honey storing. 

The other bee yard is for the mite susceptibles.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>first a friendly word of advice: get good at ignoring the off handed remarks coming from folks who have never been treatment free, have no intention of becoming treatment free, and get their jollies making by snide remarks in response to very legitimate questions posted in the appropriate subforum as you did in your opening post.

Yes. If you want to keep bees treatment free, listen to people who are actually doing it. Most of these posts are from people who believe it is impossible, have never succeeded at it, and don't see the point in doing the things that successful treatment free people are doing. You'll have to sort out all the naysayers. Why start beekeeping in a way that is not consistent with where you want to end up. That's like going west when you want to end up in the east... As far as foundationless I find foundationless to be the easiest thing to do. Much easier than wiring wax foundation. Better accepted than plastic, but most importantly, the size cells the bees want and you get combs without contamination.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Nordak said:


> How does the average beekeeper come to the conclusion that his hive crashed via the local "leave 'em bee" neighbor? It would be hard to prove that were the case.


It isn't exactly uncommon for people to want to blame failure on someone other than themselves. In my case, since I don't believe that there is anyone else keeping bees within average foraging/flying distance from me (and in this area there is usually no shortage of natural forage), I am quite well aware that any failures I might have are solely attributable to me. I have had untreated hives fail and there is no one else to blame. Unfortunately, those who are keen on blaming someone else rather than examining their own methods with a critical eye, in order to learn how to do better, are unlikely to do better until they do.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> That having been said, there are NO treatment free bees for the most part although there may be pockets of colonies that DO survive and are successful in tolerating Varroa mites. Move these colonies to another region of the country and they usually crash.


The issues are a lot more complex than this suggests. Beekeepers who treat are maintaining stock that cross with any mite resistant colonies in the area. A beekeeper can attempt to go treatment free by bringing in queens of TF stock, but within 2 years they will have crossed with treated stock so much that the resistance is lost. As for your claim that there are no treatment free bees, I respectfully disagree.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> It isn't exactly uncommon for people to want to blame failure on someone other than themselves. In my case, since I don't believe that there is anyone else keeping bees within average foraging/flying distance from me (and in this area there is usually no shortage of natural forage), I am quite well aware that any failures I might have are solely attributable to me. I have had untreated hives fail and there is no one else to blame. Unfortunately, those who are keen on blaming someone else rather than examining their own methods with a critical eye, in order to learn how to do better, are unlikely to do better until they do.


:thumbsup:


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> If you want to keep bees treatment free, listen to people who are actually doing it.


Why, it's the easiest thing. Like sculpture, where all you have to do is get a big piece of marble and chip away the part that doesn't look like David. Get rid of the bees that don't survive. The ones that are left are survivors. What other problems can I help you with?


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## beejack1 (Jan 2, 2017)

Well I finally built some hives. I have decided to go with medium 8 frame equipment. Easier on my old back lol.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

May your bees be as lively as the thread you created.


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## beejack1 (Jan 2, 2017)

Thank you old timer. I am looking forward to being treatment free just to prove some of these people wrong. LOL!!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

your experience will prove what it proves. 

when it comes to bees and new beekeepers there are no guaranteed scenarios. most of these people are speaking from their experience and trying to help you. 

have you determined whether or not there exists a surviving feral population in new brunswick?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, agree with Squarepeg, success is not automatically guaranteed. If you have a population of surviving feral bees, plus some other beekeepers nearby who don't treat and have success, then you may well have success. Attempting to prove the "naysayers" wrong will be satisfying if it works but will be very self destructive if it doesn't work it's best to just do what you can, for you. What the "naysayers" have to say may be unpalatable but will be true in their own experience.

Should add at this point just for full disclosure I am not treatment free myself, tried it, but could not make it work in my area.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Yes, agree with Squarepeg, success is not automatically guaranteed. If you have a population of surviving feral bees, plus some other beekeepers nearby who don't treat and have success, then you may well have success. Attempting to prove the "naysayers" wrong will be satisfying if it works but will be very self destructive if it doesn't work it's best to just do what you can, for you. What the "naysayers" have to say may be unpalatable but will be true in their own experience.
> 
> Should add at this point just for full disclosure I am not treatment free myself, tried it, but could not make it work in my area.


:applause: True!!


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## beejack1 (Jan 2, 2017)

I am not sure yet but I do think so. There are no beekeepers near me and I see bees around my home in the summer. So I do presume they are feral bees. The nearest apiary to me is about 8 miles as the crow flies. So they are not his bees. He only has 3 or 4 hives just for his own use. And he has only been going for 2 yrs. We still have 4 feet of snow here so no bees flying yet lol.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very cool jack. i would consider researching how to set out swarm traps. if the bees you are seeing are indeed feral survivors catching a swarm or two would great start for your apiary.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

This is not to discount what others may know. I am always surprized by the comments that there are no bees around me for such and such miles. I have lived where I live for the last 20 years and have lived in this area my whole life (mostly). I did not know anyone who had bees. Only after I was getting bees or after having bees did I find out how many around me really have bees due to off hand comments from some of my niebors and friends. Guy across from my brother has a few hive, My neibor across the street says somebody behind me has a few. My uncle live near somebody that had them for years but just sold out. And on and on and on. This is just comments from some who find I have bees and bring it up. I have zero doubt that there are some around that I have no ideal of and that don't go to meetings. Lots of quiet people out there have a few hives. 
It might be that I just don't have many friends to tell me about stuff or am not curious enough.
Cheers
gww

PS I can garrentee that a whole bunch that live within a couple of miles of me have no ideal that I have bees.


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## beejack1 (Jan 2, 2017)

Well where I live I know everyone in the area. It is very rural and low population density I know where everyone lives and what they have for livestock. My cousin did have bees 20 years ago but since he passed away there are no more close to me. These ferals could be from his old stock from years ago.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

if you are serious about keeping bees off treatments, and if you do indeed have feral survivors in your area, here would be my recommendations:

1. learn how to locate (search for 'bee lining') surviving overwintered colonies as soon as flying weather begins.
2. learn how to 'cut out' or 'trap out' a couple of those if you can.
3. set up multiple swarm traps in the vicinity of those feral colonies.
4. avoid bringing in bees from large operations that come with a history of being treated which may not have natural mite resistance and could potentially expose any surviving ferals to novel viruses.

if you can pull this off, you might be able to negate a lemon or two that i mentioned in post #14. forum help is not as good as eyes on help from a local mentor, but we might be able to negate another half lemon with what we can recommend here.

as mentioned, there are several here on beesource that have been successfully keeping bees off treatments who got their start in a similar manner. it would be an awesome success story and pave the way for others to attempt if you can pull it off.


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## beejack1 (Jan 2, 2017)

I have 2 pieces of property one 50 acres and the other 35 I have been out a few times this winter just looking for signs on old trees but so far no luck. I will check more this spring without snowshoes lol.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i've never done it before, but what i would try is getting a quail waterer and putting some 2:1 syrup in it along with a few drops of lemongrass oil.

if that attracts honeybees you can watch for the direction of flight. i've read about folks sprinkling a little white flour on the bees to make them easier to see, plus you can time their return to the feeder to get an idea of the distance from their home.

another method might be to put the feeder in different spots and triangulate your way to their home.

the old timers around here tell me about scouting potential water sources in or around the woods, seeing bees, and following them back to their trees.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beejack
Start here. Tom has several vidios on this and it would give you an ideal of the how of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAt0pkag9YY

I have tried the feeding a little sugar water and trying to see the bees fly off but you get overwhelmed by too many bees. When they load up my chicken feeder I have tried to throw flower on their backs and found I still couldn't see their flight path. I think like tom does it in the middle of a field with nothing to break your view is the way to go.

Good luck.
gww


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## beejack1 (Jan 2, 2017)

Thank you gww I will watch it. I may have already watched it but I will soon find out lol!!


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