# Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BumblingBeek said:


> I have been listening to this multiple times in order to make sure I get it right, and I'm not a TF Beek yet, but have dreams of 'someday'.
> 
> I think it sounds really smart and effective...I'm curious, how many of you successful TF Beeks rough up the interior walls of your hives to get the bees to apply a propolis envelope?
> 
> ...


First and foremost effort and time should be spent on figuring out your genetics and local population status.
I say focus on that first.

There was a propolis discussion recently - search.

Personally, I want to go as far as creating and populating the real log hives so that the bees can live as if feral (propolis, molds, ants, you name it).
But this is only a component in setting up a pseudo-feral population in my area - the key component worthy the time spent.
Have no time or energy to be "roughing up the interior walls" of my hives.

PS: correction, I did invest some time into these walls in one experimental hive - this is for all - propolis and flora and fauna


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## dr4ngas (Mar 19, 2014)

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?355911-Excellent-Listen-on-Propolis
you may like to lesson to the video in this thread. It sounds like it may help.


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## BumblingBeek (May 28, 2019)

dr4ngas said:


> https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?355911-Excellent-Listen-on-Propolis
> you may like to lesson to the video in this thread. It sounds like it may help.


I made that post yesterday, lol.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

dr4ngas said:


> https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?355911-Excellent-Listen-on-Propolis
> you may like to lesson to the video in this thread. It sounds like it may help.


There is nothing new.
You re-posted the same thing as in the original post.

Now - these researchers should be going back to the Old World and study why is it the Grey Caucasian bees are the propolis-crazy but the Russian bees are just so-so-propolis crazy (while being appropriately winter-hardy for MN)?
Why is it the Grey Caucasions are NOT varroa-resistant IF they are so propolis-crazy?

Another thing - if you are talking of the hive wall roughing up, why not talk of the frame designs that work the same and even better (talking nearly touching frame sides and bars - that creates tons of propolis - I do this).

I repeat myself over and over - the researchers should be looking at historic bee sources and understand the origins of the specific bee race traits (including the propolising traits), NOT just the generic North American melting pot.
Marla talks of yet another new line of bees she wants to breed - the propolis-hoarding bees I guess.
Well, that has no value to me; not getting onto a bee-buying wagon.

But Marla should be buying a ticket to Caucasus region and just look around there and see what is it going there and why is the Caucasians are so propolis-crazy.
But she would not go there as she says it is not that important - that's what she said in the audio clip.
I guess she is just into another bee-breeding project for any old reason (grant-money availability or whatever).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Thought about this some more...
Did you notice the commercials about propolis inserted into the presentation?
I surely did.

All in all - every time someone proposes to yet breed another "magic" bee (propolis-generating bee in this case) - stear clear away.
Bees are not dogs or cows - one can not maintain the pure breed for any significant length of time.
Bee breeding is not a sustainable thing and only a way to get people hooked into the bee buying program.

The only valid reason to buy some bee - to introduce the genetics into your local population and hope the traits persist within the population (no guaranties will be given).
The only traits that really persist in a location - those that are beneficial in the local climate and local ecology.
Massive propolis hoarding may or may not be such thing in every given location.
This is why I am saying - a good researcher will travel to the Caucasus region and will study WHY the local bees hoard the propolis (what are the local conditions that prompt such behavior?).
Any follow up steps will (or will NOT) be taken using the information gathered.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

This is an interesting discussion, BB. Thank you for posting. 

While I too consider propolis a meritorious addition to any colony set-up based on the current body of research, I have been surprised this year at how differently colonies in the same yard (and even swarms from the same stock) approach their propolis gathering and curing when hived in very similar set-ups. As an example, in my meager yard I have colonies that now range from virtually no propolis to speak of other than rock-hard deposits made for the specific purpose of entombing something (i.e. hive beetles) to colonies that seem to fill every crack and crevice (no matter how small) with a soft, salt-water taffy consistency goo and various iterations in between. 

So like GregV I surmise that propolis additions are largely genetically-derived and can be somewhat exploited by the environment given to them (in the case of managed hives).

The question in my mind is how reliably and sustainably can one expect that a specific modification will produce a predictable response, particularly in light of how fluid the genetic predisposition for this mechanism appears to be? 

Good post- I've enjoyed reading and considering your thought-provoking questions.

Russ


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Duplicate


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> .........I have been surprised this year at how differently colonies in the same yard (and even swarms from the same stock) approach their propolis gathering ......Russ


Indication of the "melting pot" genetics we live in.
If left alone for 50-100 years (no long distance trading and migration - the impossible fit) - we could very well start seeing some particular local traits forming and converging (sort of - distinct Kentucky bees vs. Wisconsin bees vs. Alaska bees).
Unfortunately, this is not meant to be if things continue as-is now.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Yes we live with a melting pot of bee genetics. Yes we could benefit if they were permitted to stabilize for 100 years. It is not possible for this to occur with current practices.

I am not totally convinced that propolis is a necessary part of colony defense. The Egyptian bee - A. m. Lamarckii - is remarkably hygienic and shows significant disease and pest tolerance. It is noted for collecting no propolis at all. Combining this information with the known propensity of Caucasian bees to collect propolis yet having relatively little pest resistance, we might conclude that hygienic behavior is more important than propolis collection for pest resistance. Selecting for hygienic behavior has been done with every major geographic race of bees. A.m. Mellifera Mellifera is interesting in this regard with little or no hygienic potential. Italian and particularly Carniolan bees have relatively strong hygienic traits that readily respond to selection.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Importantly:
The very Grey Caucasion bee is a propolis hoarder AND is rather highly susceptible to Nozema and EFB/AFB. 
Both traits are present at once; this is a commonly known fact.
Why and how?

And so the propolis itself needs understanding AND propolis hoarding needs understanding.
Breeding a propolis-hoarding bee without knowledge of underlying facts - is waste of time and money and rather a strange proposition (from a highly regarded scientist, of all people).

Unless - bee-breeding gymnastics is the goal of itself - my theory - it is.
Surely, it must be fun time.

Selling a propolis-hoarding bee is another practical goal (hence the propolis selling ads).
I am sure propolis has medicinal uses, I try to use it myself too, however little I understand how and if it works.
So the economics of the propolis are included too.

Is it worth it within a bigger picture of un-sustainability?
No, it is not worth it.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> ... we could very well start seeing some particular local traits forming and converging (sort of - distinct Kentucky bees...).


Good observations, GregV. We'll know for sure that we've got Kentucky bees when they start saying y'all and root for the UK Wildcats .


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Fusion_power said:


> Yes we live with a melting pot of bee genetics. Yes we could benefit if they were permitted to stabilize for 100 years. It is not possible for this to occur with current practices..


Great feedback as always, Fusion_Power. Given that you have worked hard for many years at developing a stable localized stock in your immediate vicinity, are you seeing any behavioral and/or phenotypical trends emerging in succeeding generations?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

All this propolis is making my bee work harder.















But I am letting the bees having at it anyway.
They want it, they can have it.

Is it making them mite-resistant? 
No. Not that I can see. 
The crappy bees will remain crappy - no matter how much propolis they do.

Is it helping with anything at all? 
Outside of plugging the holes - donno. 

But I will be harvesting lots of propolis for my own usages. 
That's for sure.


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## falc (Jul 16, 2016)

(Not very good editing.. I'll try again)

Hello, I hope that I am not interrupting the discussion but this is a subject that I am very interested in.

This may be old news to you guys but there has been some pretty good research into this topic. Renata Borba, PhD has done a couple of lectures on the subject https://youtu.be/MefRdj5vR6Y

You can also download some of the research from the University of Minnesota https://www.beelab.umn.edu/https:/...s/publications


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

falc said:


> Hello, I hope that I am not interrupting the discussion but this is a subject that I am very interested in.
> 
> This may be old news to you guys but there has been some pretty good research into this topic, notably at the University of Minnesota Bee research lab. Renata Borba, PhD has done a couple of lectures on the subject https://youtu.be/MefRdj5vR6Y
> 
> You can also download some of the research from the University of Minnesota https://www.beelab.umn.edu/https:/www.beelab.umn.edu/honey-bees/publications


At present, the parasitic mite is by far is the most harmful bee pest.
This mite does not directly care of propolis much if at all.
If it did, the propolis generating bee races would be mite-free (and the races that do not generate much propolis would die off).
Obviously - this is not true.

That being said, the propolis thing is just a next "shiny object" since this is what the scientists are about.
Nothing new.
Europians and Asians have been researching propolis for decades already.
The unwashed folk have been using propolis for hundreds and thousands of years.

The make up of propolis is highly variable per the specific location's flora.
Based on this alone, talking of some generic propolis is senseless.

I am all for propolis and intend to harvest as much chemical free propolis as I can (exactly why I do not use the chems).
I just don't approve of the bicycle inventing - as if no one knew about it - UNTIL now, gee.

What is different now, however, *technology availability* - this is new and is to be taken advantage of to understand the inner-makings of propolis and to discover and describe new facts.
Of course, I unfortunately predict, someone will develop "artificial propolis" and it will be for sale in Walmart - the same old story.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

falc said:


> ..


Sorry falc for spooking you.
Did not mean it.
Thanks for the resources, I will check them out anyway - never know. 
Surely others will check too.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> Sorry falc for spooking you.
> Did not mean it.
> Thanks for the resources, I will check them out anyway - never know.
> Surely others will check too.


I actually watched this while lunching:


> Renata Borba, PhD has done a couple of lectures on the subject https://youtu.be/MefRdj5vR6Y


Immediate comment:

- it was stated how propolis is losing the bio-activity over time; 
months of exposure to elements (especially years) will make propolis less valuable to the "bee health"

- IF bees really know of and are looking for the health affects of the propolis - they always should be collecting the freshest possible resin from the plants.

- well, let me state right here - bees extensively scavenge old propolis from old equipment (that makes no sense - harvesting the "used-up propolis" because it is not as "healthy" anymore)
in fact, I can point at a bee and tell what kind of propolis she is carrying - old, scavenged propolis OR fresh resin just off the plant - easy to tell; 
in fact, I can also state I see a lot of bees bringing in old, scavenged propolis - a lot of scavenging going on (makes little sense to scavenge IF bees are looking for the most potent propolis materials)

So the entire subject of propolis scavenging has been omitted as if it does not exist (unless I missed it).
That alone should change the context of "the bees actively collecting propolis for its health properties".

Bees just need good, sticky glue.


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## BumblingBeek (May 28, 2019)

falc said:


> (Not very good editing.. I'll try again)
> 
> Hello, I hope that I am not interrupting the discussion but this is a subject that I am very interested in.
> 
> ...


Thank you falc for the info, I'm also fascinated with this subject, and am conducting my own experiments in each hive to see what type of roughed up surface they coat with the most propolis. Today, hopefully, I will be able to combine my (2) 5-frame Saskatraz nucs into the Michael Palmer style double nuc I constructed for overwintering them. These guys got really late starts on building up their colonies this year, so I'm going to build them upward rather than outward, and allow them to share cluster heat through the central divider. I have attached a propolis trap to one wall which each colony will have their own half of, and another wall I used 1/8" stainless steel hardware cloth. The remaining 2 walls I manually roughed up with a handsaw and a drill. Hopefully, tomorrow, I will be able to move my 10-frame Caucasian hive from their smooth inner-surface brood box to the replacement one I roughed up in the same way. They I'm going to have to rough up that one, to move my Survivor Colony into. Each colony has screened bottom boards, and each has shown ankle biting on the dead mites, so I'm super stoked about that! I'm still going to perform OA treatment, as I am not exactly in an ideal situation to be completely treatment free. However, I like that the propolis envelope can help keep immune systems quieter, and the materials I stapled to the inside of my boxes can be removed and replaced with fresh a few times a year to keep the bees bringing in fresh propolis. I like how Ronata suggests it would be interesting to see if doing this in the fall helps to keep the propolis from becoming biologically ineffective due to age through the winter.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

falc said:


> Hello, I hope that I am not interrupting the discussion but this is a subject that I am very interested in.


Falc:

I wanted to begin by saying 'welcome' to this forum, and thank you for posting.

I am looking forward to watching the video you posted at my earliest opportunity.

For my part, I am in the 'can't hurt' camp, so I am not displeased when I see lots of propolis build-up.

Besides, I love the smell of propolis and think someone should make a cologne out of it- think it would be a market winner?

Just wanted to welcome you to the forum and encourage you to keep posting. Good luck with your end-of-season beekeeping efforts.

Russ


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Two years ago I caught a swarm and those bees propolized like crazy. Within a week they had the top entrance completely closed off except for a few bee-width gaps. They narrowed the already narrow lower entrance. They propolized the OUTSIDE of the hive along all the edges where the boards met. They coated every inside surface with the oddest, gooiest, runniest orange propolis. All this within a couple of weeks of swarming into this hive.

That hive died in the winter. They had heavy mites and wrinkled wings, wax moth and small hive beetles all at the same time. A lot of their trouble was my poor management. New beekeeper who didn't notice the problems soon enough and didn't take effective action after I saw the problems. Treated the mites but too late in the season to really do much good. Should have removed excess space to help with the beetles and moths, etc. 

They propolized heavily long before there could possibly have been moths or beetles in the hive, and the early mite load should have been low after a swarm. The propolis seems to have done them little to no good.

Reusing the equipment this year and was interested to notice the bees gradually removing that old propolis. The new propolis they are making is grey and sticky but not at all runny. Same location.

I don't really care one way or the other. If the bees want propolis, fine with me.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AR1 said:


> ........
> That hive died in the winter. They had heavy mites and wrinkled wings, wax moth and small hive beetles all at the same time.
> ........


In Russia, this is how it is with the Grey Caucasians.
While they are easy to manage bees (very mild), they are very decease prone AND propolis hoarders.
So this entire "healthy propolis" talk is another new shiny thing the scientists came up with (to justify the funding I guess OR maybe to change the topic).
The science can not save the bees anyway it appears, the science best to just step away and let the things just happen naturally.

Propolis will not save the crappy bees.
Good bees need no propolis to save them.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

GregV said:


> In Russia, this is how it is with the Grey Caucasians.
> While they are easy to manage bees (very mild), they are very decease prone AND propolis hoarders.
> .


I suspected they might be part Caucasian simply due to the propolis. They varied hugely in color and size from fat pure blond with no stripes to dark, almost black small ones. Made no difference.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AR1 said:


> I suspected they might be part Caucasian simply due to the propolis. They varied hugely in color and size from fat pure blond with no stripes to dark, almost black small ones. Made no difference.


Since here in the US we deal with a melting pot - the appearances don't matter much anymore.
Nothing matters much anymore.
We are really looking at a different animal in making we don't really know what it is.

Seriously, how people can even label the bees with honest face?
Including well regarded people....

Once the bee has been removed from its original place - it is a different bee. 
End of story.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't treat the inside to get them to propolize it. I do dip it in beeswax and rosin and the bees treat that like propolis. They gather it from boxes that aren't in use and my gloves when I'm dipping.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

GregV said:


> Since here in the US we deal with a melting pot - the appearances don't matter much anymore.
> Nothing matters much anymore.
> We are really looking at a different animal in making we don't really know what it is.
> 
> ...


Mail order queens and migratory beekeeping stirs the pot. But my little descendants of feral mutts definitely look different and behave differently than bees from a top line national queen breeder. Since I don’t requeen, over time the traits of a colony from a high born queen move toward my local norm but they do still show traits of their store bought ancestor.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

New research published by the Royal Society explores the social immunity effects of propolis.

_Honeybees use propolis as a natural pesticide against their major ectoparasite_

A few observations lifted from the paper:

_We conclude that propolis can be regarded as a natural pesticide used by the honeybee to limit a dangerous parasite.

It has been noted that the proportion of resin foragers in bee colonies increases according to Varroa infestation [14], suggesting a causal link between parasitic challenge and propolis collection, consistent with increased survival of Varroa-infested worker bees reared in presence of propolis [15] or fed sugar syrup added with propolis [16]. It has also been observed that propolis reduces DWV viral loads associated with V. destructor infestations at colony level. 

Propolis significantly increased the mortality of Varroa mites, which approached 20% in treated cells... 

Also, propolis significantly decreased, by 44%, the percentage of surviving mites that produced offspring inside the rearing cells...

These results indicate that propolis applied to brood cells before oviposition can influence the mites parasitizing the bee pupae, decreasing their survival and reducing reproduction, probably because of the acaricidal effects of propolis...

Our study, which is the first to deal with all the effects of propolis on Varroa, highlights the importance of this substance for colony health, suggesting that the development of strategies to stimulate resin collection and propolis storage into the hive could have a beneficial effect on bee health and should therefore be promoted._


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> New research published by the Royal Society explores the social immunity effects of propolis.
> 
> _Honeybees use propolis as a natural pesticide against their major ectoparasite_
> 
> ...


Thanks Russ. I'd like to share this in the Michigan FB group if that's alright?


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

thegospelisgood said:


> I'd like to share this in the Michigan FB group if that's alright?


James: You are welcome to share anything I post on your forum- you're doing a great job over there keeping the group focused IMHO. Good work.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> James: You are welcome to share anything I post on your forum- you're doing a great job over there keeping the group focused IMHO. Good work.


Thanks.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A demo of my "natural wall" hive - heavily propolised.
Back and front walls of the hive are like this.
I also use burlap/canvas as my standard covers - those get crusty due to the heavy impregnation with propolis.
Of course, none of this worked for me in terms of preventing bee losses.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

When I was starting out, I ignorantly built boxes out of cedar- rough inside, smooth outside.

It gathered a lot of propolis, but it didn't appear to me to be helpful. I didn't measure or count anything, so that observation is meaningless.

If propolis in the feed or sprayed in the cells helps control mites, then encouraging bees to propolize the hive walls, where mites never go, may reduce the amount of propolis in the bees' diet, and the amount that finds its way into the cells. More propolis on the cell walls does not mean more propolis anywhere else, and may mean less.

It is also possible that the acaracidal properties of propolis are related to the source of the propolis, and so may not be equally true of all propolis.

This also brings up some ethical questions for the TF crowd.

Is propolis in the bee feed a treatment? Is feeding a treatment?

Is modifying the hive to encourage propolization a treatment? Is it ethical?

Of course, spraying propolis in the cells is verboden for TF, and not practical for other beekeepers.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

A Novice said:


> This also brings up some ethical questions for the TF crowd.


I think the short answer is that like nectar collection, all colonies gather propolis to a greater or lesser extent and we as beekeepers have very little control of the source.

From my very humble view, the preferential selection of genetics that gather better-than-average amounts of propolis or the use of hive construction techniques that encourage a propolis envelope would not be considered a treatment. Anything beyond that might be on thin ice, at least from the perspective of the 'official' definition of treatment defined here on Beesource:

*Treatment: A substance introduced by the beekeeper into the hive with the intent of killing, repelling, or inhibiting a pest or disease afflicting the bees.*


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)




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## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

GregB said:


> If left alone for 50-100 years (no long distance trading and migration - the impossible fit) - we could very well start seeing some particular local traits forming and converging (sort of - distinct Kentucky bees vs. Wisconsin bees vs. Alaska bees).


Over here in the Old World we reckon North American bees do indeed have distinct local landraces, after 400 years of local adaptation. This has relatively RECENTLY been overwritten in some places by the modern mass migratory system, but it's a big continent.

Regarding the OP's question, I know about 3 TF beekeepers who specifically roughen the inside of hives but most don't bother.


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