# How does Small Cell Work?



## BeeCultivador (Apr 28, 2003)

I have been following the small cell bee work that members of this board have been engaged in for the past year - and I admit that I don't understand how it works.

If getting back to a "natural" cell size was going to be effective in controlling diseases / pests in honeybees, then why didn't most of the feral hives survive the initial infestations of T-Mites and V-Mites? According to articles I have read (I have not seen any scientific studies on this - just anecdotal references) we lost something like 98% of feral colonies in the initial wave. If the next generation of bees were bred from this stock - wouldn't they be just as successful whether on large cell or small cell?

Another issue that I don't understand is why small cell eliminates V-Mites. As attested to by multiple people on this bulletin board, when started on small cell - the bees don't just build 4.9 cells, instead choosing to build cells from 4.8 to 6.0. Since there seems to be a constant amount of cells greater than 4.9mm; and these cells are supposedly preferred by V-Mites; then why don't they still thrive in hives that are small cell? Is it the case that the number of large (preferred by V-Mites) cells is proportionally less - therefore the mites can't get fully established? Are they any scientific studies on this - or is it just anecdotal evidence that points to success using these methods?

One final question. Since nearly every post on this forum is on small cell beekeeping - why was it changed to Biological Beekeeping? What, exactly, is Biological Beekeeping? What management techniques are used in this system? I am familiar with Biological Farming - just don't understand what it means when applied to apiculture.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi BC,

>According to articles I have read (I have not seen any scientific studies on this - just anecdotal references) we lost something like 98% of feral colonies in the initial wave.

Resistance to mite vectored viruses are a big factor to survival. Some bees don't survive the mites, even when on small cell. But the numbers that I have observed are way under 10% of the total that fail.

Could the estimates of feral colony losses be overexaggerated. Maybe massive losses occured in some areas and not others. I think most of us assumed the massive losses were so. But when areas are actually checked the feral populations have mostly rebounded. 

Any hear anything more about the ongoing feral bee studies at Cornell?

>Another issue that I don't understand is why small cell eliminates V-Mites.

Lots of factors seem to be involved. The bees can detect and remove mite infected pupa. They learn to actively groom and destroy the mites by biting them. And they can maintain a constant low level mite infection without any seasonal mite increases.

From my perspective the focus on mites versus cell size is looking the wrong way. The cell size doesn't directly change the mites behavior. It changes the bees behavior.
And those bees are so disruptive to the mites, they can't thrive.

Many other factors could be involved. Anyone?

>One final question. Since nearly every post on this forum is on small cell beekeeping - why was it changed to Biological Beekeeping?

I should let Barry answer this one but I will put in my two cents.

Biological beekeeping is the name of a Yahoo Group that was focused on small cell beekeeping. See:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BiologicalBeekeeping 

The group description on the homepage best details it. Most everyone initially initially in small cell beekeeping has been a member at one time or another. It has quite an international scope. 

As the list matured, differences developed conderning small cell beekeeping at biobee. A few felt the list was headed in the wrong direction by allowing beekeepers to talk about soft treatments, supplimental feeding, alternatives to regress, etc. They stopped supporting biobee and started a rather narrowly focused, small cell/organic beekeeping group at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ 

The home page description pretty much describes what organobee is about and alot of what it isn't about. :> )

A biological beekeeping section was added at beesource to consolidate the scattered small cell related posts as well as provided a place for a broader range of discussion than just small cell alone.

And my recent unpleasant encounter with Yahoo indicates that a non-Yahoo forum is valuable. I now try to stay as far away as I can from Yahoo whenever possible.

Regards
Dennis 

[This message has been edited by topbarguy (edited March 11, 2004).]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If getting back to a "natural" cell size was going to be effective in controlling diseases / pests in honeybees, then why didn't most of the feral hives survive the initial infestations of T-Mites and V-Mites? 

First, the majority of feral bees are recent swarms from domestic hives. The large bees (from 5.4mm cells) that swarm build large cell combs (5.15 to 5.2mm) and that is not small enough to make any difference. All of these would be at the same disadvantage as the domesticated hives. The survivors that I've been seening are mostly smaller bees. I think these are true feral or maybe even wild bees.

>(According to articles I have read (I have not seen any scientific studies on this - just anecdotal references) we lost something like 98% of feral colonies in the initial wave.

I think they exagerate. I'm finding feral bees. But certainly not as many as before.

>If the next generation of bees were bred from this stock - wouldn't they be just as successful whether on large cell or small cell?

Maybe. Maybe not. The study I quote below is on AHB and they were succeeding against the V mites until they put them on large sized cells. I think you put the bees at a distinct disadvantage.

>Another issue that I don't understand is why small cell eliminates V-Mites.

I have watched the bees in my observation hive on 4.95mm wax dipped PermaComb. The precapping time is a day shorter. This means less mites infest the cell. The post capping time is also a day shorter, so the mites reproduce less. Several studies have shown that a shorter pre and post capping time would both help with the mites. Studies have shown that if you take a small cell AHB and put them on large cell the mites reproduce more in the same bees on large cells. Why someone hasn't bothered to do a real reasearch study on EHB is anybodies guess. But my observation is that it works the same way.

>As attested to by multiple people on this bulletin board, when started on small cell - the bees don't just build 4.9 cells, instead choosing to build cells from 4.8 to 6.0. 

If you get them regressed and don't give then any foundation and let them build what they want, they will build all the way down to 4.6mm but most of the center of the brood nest is 4.85mm. There is no worker brood in 6.0mm but there are honey storage cells that size. A 6.0mm cell in a small cell hive is a drone cell or a honey storage cell. It is NOT a worker cell.

>Since there seems to be a constant amount of cells greater than 4.9mm; and these cells are supposedly preferred by V-Mites; then why don't they still thrive in hives that are small cell? Is it the case that the number of large (preferred by V-Mites) cells is proportionally less - therefore the mites can't get fully established?

Most of the small cell people are doing 4.9mm foundation. Most of them are NOT letting the bees build what they want. Most of the cells throughout their hives are all 4.9mm or smaller.

Dennis and I (topbarguy)) are doing some natural cell experiments and that is where your numbers are coming from. But the natural cell bees still seem to be doing very well. Mostly because the bees are using the small cell in the center of the brood nest all year round and some of the larger (5.1mm) only during the peak of brood rearing and these are still smaller than the 5.4mm to 5.45mm foundation being used in most hives.

Dennis and others also have observed more hygenic behavior from the same bees when they have been regressed. I don't have a lot of comparisons, because my observation hive has always been small cell, but they do groom each other and get mites off each other.

>Are they any scientific studies on this - or is it just anecdotal evidence that points to success using these methods?
http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm 

Here's a study that shows that if you take survivor AHB that are doing well on small natural cells and put them on artificially enlarged cells the varroa will reproduce faster on the large cells.
http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/environ/bee/varroa/ModellingBiologicalApproaches.pdf 

Here's one that does a mathematical model of varroa reproduction and if you look for sections on postcapping times. If you shorten the post capping time 8 hours it is enough to reduce the Varroa reproduction enough to stabalize it so the bees don't crash. My observation is a 24 hour shorter post capping time AND a 24 hour shorter precapping time. Far more than necessary to handle the mites.

But the most convincing for me was Dee Lusby who wouldn't use ANY chemicals and went from around a thousand hives down to a few and is now back up to around a thousand and she still isn't using anything but small cell, feral survivor bees, and feeding real honey and real pollen.

>One final question. Since nearly every post on this forum is on small cell beekeeping - why was it changed to Biological Beekeeping? 

This WAS the small cell forum until recently and that's why it's mostly small cell that's here. I think the intent (by Barry) was, as topbarguy says, that it could be a little brooder, like genetics. But it would still exclude the FMGO, Oxalic acid, essential oils etc.


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