# First time making a split



## Eeltempered (Jul 3, 2012)

Im in NC i had four hives, lost one to mites. I would like to try making a split to replace the the hive I lost. Could someone give a brief set of instructions on doing this. I know it a lot to ask but I haven't been able to find any instructions that fit my situation. Do I take a frame or two from all three hives or from just one hive. Im really worried about the Queen situation because finding her in crowded hives is not my speciality. Anyway I don't want to mess up the hives Ive got so that is why I am asking. I could just buy a nuc or package but i feel like with 3 strong hives I shouldn't have to. Thanks Mike


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

From Michael Bush's website on splits. Great information on different types of splits.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Agree with Mike, well worth reading.


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## oliver.karp (Apr 7, 2014)

I'm in fayetteville as well. Get a nuc box together and pull a frame of new eggs, one of honey, one pollen. Slap them in a nuc. Shake in some nurse bees. If the queen is with the nuc you will know in a few days. Remediate the situation if needed. Your queens may end up mating with mine!or at least the other local beekeepers and feral bees. Oh and look at Michael Bush's website.


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## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

You're not planning to try that now are you?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

For the winter months just soak up the infos until the flow starts again.
It is not the time of year to make a split no matter how large a colony you
have now.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Eeltempered said:


> Anyway I don't want to mess up the hives Ive got so that is why I am asking. I could just buy a nuc or package but i feel like with 3 strong hives I shouldn't have to. Thanks Mike


The absolute easiest way is to split a hive evenly and let the queenless hive make a new queen. You do not need to find the queen in this case. You improve your chances of success by verifying that there is brood and eggs in both halves. And even if you don't verify the eggs and brood in the spring time when the hives are expanding rapidly it is highly likely that they are there anyway.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you _blindly _split a colony into two without checking that there are eggs/young larva in each split, you may be disappointed with the result. If a split ends up without eggs/young larva and doesn't have the original queen, there are NO options for the bees to make a new queen, and that split will fail.

Read the Michael Bush page linked in post #2.


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## Eeltempered (Jul 3, 2012)

No. Just trying to get educated now


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## Eeltempered (Jul 3, 2012)

No just trying to get educated.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> there are NO options for the bees to make a new queen, and that split will fail.


If the queenless hive makes a queen and it gets eaten or doesn't get mated there are NO options for the bees to make a new queen, and the split will fail too. Life is a gamble.

Having three hives he can split two of them and now he has a better chance of increasing to four hives even if the splits are totally blind. Personally I would split all three hives because it helps to curtain swarming of the parent hive. It will most likely reduce your honey yield if that is important to you.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> The absolute *easiest way* is to split a hive evenly and let the queenless hive make a new queen. You do not need to find the queen in this case. You *improve your chances of success* by verifying that there is brood and eggs in both halves. And even* if you don't verify *the eggs and brood in the spring time when the hives are expanding rapidly it is *highly likely* that they are there anyway.


The "easiest way" may not always be the "best way". If you are going to go through the effort of doing an even split at least take a couple of minutes to make sure you have eggs in both halves. You are going to waste a whole lot of time and hive resources later on if you end up with a queenless hive. 

If you have hundreds of colonies to split then I can understand the rush, but for a hobbyist with a handful of hives it makes no sense to not take just a few minutes to check for eggs. Then the guesswork is eliminated.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> If the queenless hive makes a queen and it gets eaten or doesn't get mated there are NO options for the bees to make a new queen, and the split will fail too. Life is a gamble.


Ace's _non-intervention_ splitting technique: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291085-Split-like-crazy

11 _non-intervention_ months later ....
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?304285-Acebirds-one-hive


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> The "easiest way" may not always be the "best way".


I whole heatedly agree. The "easiest way" is never the best way in most cases.



> If you are going to go through the effort of doing an even split at least take a couple of minutes to make sure you have eggs in both halves. You are going to waste a whole lot of time and hive resources later on if you end up with a queenless hive.


For people like me that can't find a queen or see 3 day old larvae it takes a whole lot longer then a couple of minutes to look for either. I do look for brood and it is not hard to find open larvae but being 100% sure I have what I need is never the case. Even if you do have 100% of what you need there is not a guarantee that the split will be successful. The only true way to be successful is to keep adding mated queens until the hive accepts one. This goes why beyond the couple minutes of involvement and has considerable expense.

I have no idea what the capabilities of the OP are or his intentions for apiary size but a hobbyist with a handful of hives doesn't need a bunch more. I don't see a huge lose of resources from a hive that didn't make a queen. They draw comb and collect a large amount of honey. Their lives are spent in 6 to 8 weeks anyway. After they pack all the honey in you just dump the hive out.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Acebird said:


> For people like me that can't find a queen or see 3 day old larvae it takes a whole lot longer then a couple of minutes to look for either.


In a couple of minutes you could shake the bees off of brood frames and put them above an excluder. In an hour or so you will have plenty of nurse bees on the brood frames and know where your queen is. A couple more minutes and you can make up your split. No need to go about it blindly, in ignorance.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Acebird said:


> If the queenless hive makes a queen and it gets eaten or doesn't get mated there are NO options for the bees to make a new queen, and the split will fail too. Life is a gamble.
> 
> Having three hives he can split two of them and now he has a better chance of increasing to four hives even if the splits are totally blind. Personally I would split all three hives because it helps to curtain swarming of the parent hive. It will most likely reduce your honey yield if that is important to you.


This happened to me this summer. I kept a very close watch and when I knew there was no queen coming. I bought one. That also broke the brood cycle for the varroa mites.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

cg3 said:


> In a couple of minutes you could shake the bees off of brood frames and put them above an excluder. In an hour or so you will have plenty of nurse bees on the brood frames and know where your queen is. A couple more minutes and you can make up your split. No need to go about it blindly,


Well you are way past two minutes now and if you can't see eggs you still don't know you have them. At what temperature can you do this? If you have a hive that is 4 or 5 boxes it seems to me you would be pulling them off and putting them back on twice. You might be starting your smoker twice and you would likely suit up twice. All of which is beyond two minutes and a PITA. I would like to see this start to finish performed by a newbie to see how long it takes for what you are suggesting.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Well you are way past two minutes now


It never occurrred to me that 2 minutes was the limit.


Acebird said:


> I would like to see this start to finish performed by a newbie to see how long it takes for what you are suggesting.


When I was a newbee it did indeed take longer than 2 minutes.


Acebird said:


> .... pulling them off and putting them back on ...


Big Deal.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

If you split a hive in half in spring when drones are out and mature, if you get the Queenless side Queenright will both sides grow enough to produce harvestable honey in the same year?

If so it seems better than going through the nuc phase...or do folks that make up nucs make more than 2 from a single hive?

I ask as in 2015 we hope expand our hive numbers but still get honey to extract.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I don't see a huge lose of resources from a hive that didn't make a queen. They draw comb and collect a large amount of honey. Their lives are spent in 6 to 8 weeks anyway. *After they pack all the honey in you just dump the hive out*.


I'm trying real hard to understand your logic. If the split was "queenright" you would not only have all that honey they packed in, but also a viable living hive. To my way of thinking dumping out bees from a queenless colony is a notable loss of potential future resources. 

I do understand the limitations with your eyesight and total inability to locate eggs and young larvae. But I think for most beekeepers that is not the case, and your suggested methods would be directed towards a limited number of beekeepers with similar eyesight limitations as you are working with. If the OP cannot see eggs or larvae then perhaps your method would work for him too.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If someone with vision issues was actually _MOTIVATED _to find eggs/young larva, taking a digital photo of a likely frame and then looking at an enlargement is one way to verify their presence.

But then that would also take more than two minutes.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

You might consider pulling 3 frames nuc with the old queen just as the hives are getting around to swarm mode. It wont hurt honey production much, gives swarm control and the bees in the nuc go to town bulding up like a swarm would.

Hives that I have done even splits on and requeened one half only make about 1 medium of honey each. It cripples two hives in my short season. You will have a longer season on the coast though.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> If someone with vision issues was actually _MOTIVATED _to find eggs/young larva, taking a digital photo of a likely frame and then looking at an enlargement is one way to verify their presence.
> 
> But then that would also take more than two minutes.


I think Ace should do a Taranov swarm to get his split with the queen in it. I am no whizz at finding queens either. The taranov swarm may seem goofy and takes some nerve the first time you do it but it sure is amazing how it works. The bees you pull off are not honey producers but they sure are ready to go to work drawing comb!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I wasn't familiar with "Taranov" so I went looking. Dave Cushman's site has a page:
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/taranovswm.html​

A photo from a different site ...








Photo linked from, and more here:
http://apiarynotes.blogspot.com/2013/06/taranov-split.html


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

Eeltempered said:


> Im in NC i had four hives, lost one to mites. I would like to try making a split to replace the the hive I lost. Could someone give a brief set of instructions on doing this. I know it a lot to ask but I haven't been able to find any instructions that fit my situation. Do I take a frame or two from all three hives or from just one hive. Im really worried about the Queen situation because finding her in crowded hives is not my speciality. Anyway I don't want to mess up the hives Ive got so that is why I am asking. I could just buy a nuc or package but i feel like with 3 strong hives I shouldn't have to. Thanks Mike


To answer your question yes you can use your three hives to make a nuc. Take a frame of brood out of each hive and a frame of honey out of one a frame of pollen from one all with the bees that are on the frames and a shake of bees from the third hive. Put in a nuc box. Make sure there is not a queen on the frames. But I would give them a laying queen when I made up the nuc but you dont have to if they have eggs or the right size larva.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Our season is also short...not much happening after mid July...they really get going mid May but are working to build up numbers before that.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I'm trying real hard to understand your logic. If the split was "queenright" you would not only have all that honey they packed in,


If the hive is queenright there will be no honey pack in 6 to 8 weeks later because that hive is expanding consuming nearly everything that it brings in while the queenless hive consumes next to nothing in that 6 to 8 week period. I made a statement "the easiest thing you can do". It may not be the best but it does work and the negatives are not that great for someone that is trying to maintain a set number of hives, prevent swarming, supplying their apiary with new queens, dealing with mites and getting at least some honey.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> But then that would also take more than two minutes.


And another PITA going back into the hive again. If I was willing to go back in the hive, eggs can be confirmed in a week because there would be queen cells.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

There is a way to be sure of the larvae's age for us visually challenged folks.

Take a frame of empty comb. The fresher and softer the better. Mark it and put it in the brooding area. In 4 days (or 5 or 6) all of the larvae and eggs in that frame will be of an appropriate age for making a queen.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> I think Ace should do a Taranov swarm to get his split with the queen in it.


This is an interesting concept and on the surface looks like not much involvement. I would not want to do this with my typical overwintered hive of 4 or 5 boxes. Very critical timing, the parent hive should be in swarm mode so there is quite a bit of involvement before you preform the Taranov swarm. Preparing a smaller hive for overwintering would be the way to go on this one. Something to think about in the future.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

dsegrest said:


> There is a way to be sure of the larvae's age for us visually challenged folks.
> 
> Take a frame of empty comb. The fresher and softer the better. Mark it and put it in the brooding area. In 4 days (or 5 or 6) all of the larvae and eggs in that frame will be of an appropriate age for making a queen.


Yes, again very easy to do if you overwinter nucs or have a small hive, maybe a dink. There was no mention of that from the OP. I am not sure I want to propagate the genetics of a dink though.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Managing bees without a way to see eggs is like driving without being able to read traffic signs.

If you can't see eggs easily, then get a magnifying glass. If you don't want to find eggs, that is a different problem that I can't help with....but I feel like I'm sitting next to someone who is driving, complaining they can't see anything, and refuses to put on their glasses.



Rader Sidetrack said:


> If someone with vision issues was actually _MOTIVATED _to find eggs/young larva, taking a digital photo of a likely frame and then looking at an enlargement is one way to verify their presence.
> 
> But then that would also take more than two minutes.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Dean, he has an objection to a magnifying glass also ...


Acebird said:


> The trouble I have with a magnifying glass is the veil gets in the way and I can't move the glass in and out of view without removing the veil. I suppose I could have sacrificed one frame and removed the bees so I could take it to the house and looked but I didn't think of that either.


:kn:


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I am not sure I want to propagate the genetics of a dink though.


The OP, with 3 strong hives, has more options...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> The OP, with 3 strong hives, has more options...


Yes, he has a lot of options.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> If the hive is queenright there will be no honey pack in 6 to 8 weeks later because that hive is expanding consuming nearly everything that it brings in while the queenless hive consumes next to nothing in that 6 to 8 week period.


Now I am really baffled. My queenright hive can put up 50-80 lbs of honey easily during a nectar flow in the spring... and then still be around to live another day. What 6-8 week period are you referring to ... August - September?
I think it might be time to get back to the basics.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike this would be a split that you made queenright just prior to the spring flow. I don't think you will get 50-80 pounds in 6-8 weeks from that. If it is left to raise its own queen you will get honey but probably not that much depending on how big the split was.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Ace,

If I am doing my split just before the main nectar flow at the end of April the bee population will be at peak levels ... that's when a colony will typically swarm, when the hive is busting at the seams with bees and they already have excess nectar being stored in the hive.

May - June is the next 6-8 weeks .... the peak of the nectar flow. The parent colony will be bringing in a lot more than they consume ... 50-80 lbs is what I would expect to find at the end of June. The small split during this same period would have become established and well on the way to being a full size colony. 

If either one of these splits failed to produce a queen due to no eggs or young larvae it would probably be toast by the end of June. You may have a little honey left, but a hive would be lost.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

We are doing splits differently. You are doing the traditional split with a couple frames of brood, bees and honey. I am splitting earlier and splitting the colony in half. The year before last I split again one month after the first split. I don't take honey in the spring or summer. I have way too much to do and I don't want to be freezing honey through the summer so I can extract in the fall.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I am splitting earlier and splitting the colony in half.


How'd that work out?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> We are doing splits differently. You are doing the traditional split with a couple frames of brood, bees and honey. I am splitting earlier and splitting the colony in half. The year before last I split again one month after the first split. I don't take honey in the spring or summer. I have way too much to do and I don't want to be freezing honey through the summer so I can extract in the fall.


Let's hope that "*Boomer*" makes it through the winter... 

If not, where would you get bees?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Ace, do you do swarm trap or buy your bees locally?


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Eeltempered said:


> Im in NC i had four hives, lost one to mites. I would like to try making a split to replace the the hive I lost. Could someone give a brief set of instructions on doing this. I know it a lot to ask but I haven't been able to find any instructions that fit my situation. Do I take a frame or two from all three hives or from just one hive. Im really worried about the Queen situation because finding her in crowded hives is not my speciality. Anyway I don't want to mess up the hives Ive got so that is why I am asking. I could just buy a nuc or package but i feel like with 3 strong hives I shouldn't have to. Thanks Mike


In a situation where you can't find the queen, make your split, whether it be a box split or by removing a nuc size amount of bees on 4 frames (honey, pollen, capped brood, eggs) and then 3 days later go back and check for queen cells, the one that has them doesn't have the queen.

Don't be uniting material from other hives together to make a split unless you have found the queen in each of those hives. accidental replacement of a good queen into a conglumerate split will be balled.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

WBVC said:


> If you split a hive in half in spring when drones are out and mature, if you get the Queenless side Queenright will both sides grow enough to produce harvestable honey in the same year?
> 
> If so it seems better than going through the nuc phase...or do folks that make up nucs make more than 2 from a single hive?
> 
> I ask as in 2015 we hope expand our hive numbers but still get honey to extract.


I only have 4 hives so my strategy for this spring (assuming I still have 4 hives) is to use 1 hive (my favorite) for increase and the other three for production. I hope to add 7 hives next year before the fall slowdown. If I catch any swarms that # will increase. If I lose anything in the winter it may decrease.

The plan is to make 3 new hives from my favorite hive after first buildup. The other three hives will be setup with double queens and split after the honey flow. The fall flow here is hardly worth messing with, so the bees can keep that.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Hey Eel,

I'm in CH and Wilmington. Depending on strength of your hives, April 1st can be a great time to make an early nuc. You have a lot of queen breeders around. IMO, if this is your first split, then buy in a queen. The learning experience will be great either having them make a queen or buying one, but if this is your first, give yourself a heads up and buy a queen. IMO.
There is also a doolittle method to nuc building that is very successful. Shake all the bees off from 1 frame of capped brood, 2 frames of open brood, and one or two frames of open food. Just shake all the bees off. Put a queen excluder ontop of the hive, and place the frames in a nuc box on top. Put cover ontop. The nurse bees will climb up and cover the brood. The next day remove the nuc. You're guaranteed not to have the queen, it'll have a healthy population of young bees, just add purchased queen later. They are all nurse bees, they accept a new laying queen well. IMO. If I am behind I make nucs this way. 
Farmer


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

cg3 said:


> How'd that work out?





BeeCurious said:


> If not, where would you get bees?


I will cross that bridge when I get to it.



beepro said:


> Ace, do you do swarm trap or buy your bees locally?


In 4 years I have bought a total of 2 nucs from a local guy. He may not be raising bees anymore because he is quite old and has lost both his wife and son to illness.



Sunday Farmer said:


> Shake all the bees off from 1 frame of capped brood, 2 frames of open brood, and one or two frames of open food. Just shake all the bees off. Put a queen excluder ontop of the hive, and place the frames in a nuc box on top. Put cover ontop. The nurse bees will climb up and cover the brood. The next day remove the nuc.


This is probably a very good way compared to most but it has been mentioned in this thread that you only have to wait a hour or so to pull the nuc off.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

beepro said:


> Ace, do you do swarm trap or buy your bees locally?


I can't image Acebird buying anything.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Sunday Farmer said:


> April 1st can be a great time to make an early nuc.


There are always drones in a hive so I wonder why it is necessary to wait for drones to be raised when starting a nuc. The drones in the hive were selected by the bees worthy of being kept. Wouldn't they be good fathers?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deleted


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

dsegrest said:


> I can't image Acebird buying anything.


Here's how he manages not to buy anything ....



Acebird said:


> My wife pays for everything.




:gh:

(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Acebird said:


> There are always drones in a hive so I wonder why it is necessary to wait for drones to be raised when starting a nuc. The drones in the hive were selected by the bees worthy of being kept. Wouldn't they be good fathers?


There are not always drones in a hive. The virgins don't like to do it with their brother. If you wait until some drones are in the hive, there are probably some in the air as well and the new queen can get laid and start laying.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

dsegrest said:


> There are not always drones in a hive. The virgins don't like to do it with their brother.


I didn't mean they would do it with their brothers. They would do it with some other hives brothers exactly as they normally do.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> The drones in the hive were selected by the bees worthy of being kept. Wouldn't they be good fathers?


Are you suggesting that old drones would have viable sperm and the stamina for a mating flight? 

Drones in the hive are not the same as drones in a congregation area... And diminished sperm viability makes the "kept drone" less valuable, I would think.


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## Dan. NY (Apr 15, 2011)

To the op: What a thread this is. I am also what I like to call "Queen Challenged" and "egg challenged". Yes its like driving without being able to read, I guess, but if you follow some directions you can manage.

I have made two splits now. Far from an expert but I have done this without finding her majesty or her eggs. I fairly painstakingly went through the donor hive and found the brood boxes/frames. If I saw larva I counted this as a frame that likely had eggs. The smaller the larva, the more chances I figured eggs were nearby. I split the frames into what I figured were half and half. Half had what I thought should have eggs, and the other half had what I thought should have eggs as well. After having split the eggs/larva frames, I split the capped frames. Then some pollen and honey frames were split as well. It does take some time though not that bad. I really split as I was doing a hive check essentially.

What I found is that the hive making the queen made a TON of honey. It had few eggs and larva to care for and focused on gathering honey. One issue I did have was I needed to add a frame of capped brood from another hive to supplement the population. I shook all bees off the frame before adding to make sure I did not take the queen. Good luck.


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## sultan (Aug 9, 2014)

Acebird said:


> The absolute easiest way is to split a hive evenly and let the queenless hive make a new queen. You do not need to find the queen in this case. You improve your chances of success by verifying that there is brood and eggs in both halves. And even if you don't verify the eggs and brood in the spring time when the hives are expanding rapidly it is highly likely that they are there anyway.


Thanks Brian!


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Acebird said:


> I didn't mean they would do it with their brothers.


Unless they are in West Virginia.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Dan. NY said:


> To the op: What a thread this is. I am also what I like to call "Queen Challenged" and "egg challenged". Yes its like driving without being able to read, I guess, but if you follow some directions you can manage.
> 
> I have made two splits now. Far from an expert but I have done this without finding her majesty or her eggs. I fairly painstakingly went through the donor hive and found the brood boxes/frames. If I saw larva I counted this as a frame that likely had eggs. The smaller the larva, the more chances I figured eggs were nearby. I split the frames into what I figured were half and half. Half had what I thought should have eggs, and the other half had what I thought should have eggs as well. After having split the eggs/larva frames, I split the capped frames. Then some pollen and honey frames were split as well. It does take some time though not that bad. I really split as I was doing a hive check essentially.
> 
> What I found is that the hive making the queen made a TON of honey. It had few eggs and larva to care for and focused on gathering honey. One issue I did have was I needed to add a frame of capped brood from another hive to supplement the population. I shook all bees off the frame before adding to make sure I did not take the queen. Good luck.


See, there you go. Probability ... Now if you use all mediums and the hive is strong and expanding in the spring you will probably have those same eggs in both halves by just dealing the deck and walking away. Bees, brood, larvae, eggs and food, all you need to make a good split. If it don't work the first time do it again in 30 days. Take all the honey that the queenless hive made and distribute it evenly in the two new halves because you still don't know where the queen is. Maybe that is the difference between a beekeeper and a beehaver, you don't know where the queen is when you do your splits.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> Are you suggesting that old drones would have viable sperm and the stamina for a mating flight?


I don't know. The sperm of every other animal is still viable. Why wouldn't the drones still go to the DCA area in early spring. They certainly can fly and there is less competition. I would expect a horn toad virgin would slow down if she wanted to get mated. Her goal is to have the best of what is available. Ask all the woman you know. Did they get the best of the best or did they settle? If you got the gonads ask your wife.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Maybe that is the difference between a beekeeper and a beehaver, you don't know where the queen is when you do your splits.


Or the difference could possibly be that a _beekeeper _is willing to spend more than _two minutes_ at the task ....



Acebird said:


> Well you are way past two minutes now ....



:gh:

... maybe Ace also applies a _two-minute rule_ in his .... uhhh ... _other activities_ .... :lpf: :kn:


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I don't know. The sperm of every other animal is still viable. Why wouldn't the drones still go to the DCA area in early spring. They certainly can fly and there is less competition. I would expect a horn toad virgin would slow down if she wanted to get mated. Her goal is to have the best of what is available. Ask all the woman you know. Did they get the best of the best or did they settle? If you got the gonads ask your wife.


Please refrain from discussing member's genitalia on this forum... 



Acebird said:


> I don't know.


It's obvious.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Regarding the semen quality of 'old drones' vs 'young drones', the _old _drones do have _LESS VIABLE_ sperm. Read the whole study (free access) here:

http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/co...art049.full?keytype=ref&ijkey=MKdUtT1sxCcqqpR



> _When every sperm counts: factors affecting male fertility in the honeybee Apis mellifera_​
> ... ... We hypothesized that the production of high-quality sperm carries substantial costs so that fertility of males may be compromised by stress factors when they are operating at their physiological limits. To test this, we performed a series of experiments using honeybees as our model system, to establish possible effects of male age on sperm quality and to evaluate effects of elevated temperatures, food deprivation during sexual maturation, and immune challenges. [HIGHLIGHT]We found that sperm viability decreases with male age [/HIGHLIGHT]but that males of some colonies were better able to delay ejaculate senescence than others.
> 
> http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/co...art049.full?keytype=ref&ijkey=MKdUtT1sxCcqqpR


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Regarding the semen quality of 'old drones' vs 'young drones', the _old _drones do have _LESS VIABLE_ sperm. Read the whole study (free access) here:
> 
> http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/co...art049.full?keytype=ref&ijkey=MKdUtT1sxCcqqpR


And "old" begins at around 20 to 25 days of age according to the study:

"Figure 1 indicates that the decline in sperm quality starts when drones are only circa 20–25 days old."


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

How does a queen keep laying viable eggs 3 to 5 years after her maiden flight if sperm degrades in 20 days? Can't be degrading much.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Seriously???


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Eeltempered said:


> No just trying to get educated.


That is shocking. You are probably one of those people who read the directions that come with new tools and machinery you buy.....:lookout:


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> How does a queen keep laying viable eggs 3 to 5 years after her maiden flight if sperm degrades in 20 days? Can't be degrading much.


I would suggest that you continue your inquiry on Bee-L and share what you learn with us... 

You will have easier access to the opinions of some queen breeders and others who have a deeper understanding of honey bee biology than the average person on a forum.


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## Mbartole (Nov 11, 2014)

Honeybeesuite has some good descriptive articles on splits as well. I will be attempting my first split this coming spring if my hives make it through the winter.

http://www.honeybeesuite.com/splits-2/


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mbartole said:


> http://www.honeybeesuite.com/splits-2/





> The easiest type of split is made by using a double-chambered hive where the brood nest spans the two brood boxes. The beekeeper simply takes off the top box and puts it on its own bottom board, adds a lid, and walks away.


Ah hmm. And I thought I was the only crazy one.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Ah hmm. And I thought I was the only crazy one.


The next paragraph ....



> But even that simple form of split requires some attention for success, especially if you don’t know where the queen is:
> 
> 
> 
> If you don’t know where the queen is, make sure both boxes have ample supplies of fresh eggs or newly hatched larvae.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Good job Mike! 


Since sometimes key words seem to get overlooked by _some_ here, I have emphasized a couple of those ... 



> If you don’t know where the queen is, _*MAKE SURE*_ both boxes have ample supplies of fresh *EGGS *or *newly hatched larvae*.
> 
> http://www.honeybeesuite.com/splits-2/


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## sultan (Aug 9, 2014)

Acebird said:


> Ah hmm. And I thought I was the only crazy one.


Yes. Really easy.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader 



> Even when you do everything right, a split won’t always succeed.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird



> Even when you do everything right, {_ANY _beekeeping manipulation} won’t always succeed.




Course, you can greatly _improve _the odds of success by _trying_ to do the procedure (whatever it might be) by following established norms. :lpf:


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

The viability of an old drone's sperm doesn't really matter much. He only got to be old by being slow.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Acebird
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Greatly" I don't think so. The success rate is around 75% if everything is done right and it is probably 74% if it was done as prescribed. It is way easier to confirm that there are queen cells in the split then there are eggs in the basket. For those people who cannot confirm there are eggs they should not be deterred from trying to do a split and raise their own queens just because someone thinks you are doing it wrong.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> The success rate is around 75% if everything is done right and it is probably 74% if it was done as prescribed.


Where did you locate these percentages? If I only had a 75% success rate with my splits I would hang my head in shame. I take my time and do the splits correctly, and have very few failures. 

If someone cannot see eggs and just wants to roll the dice with a blind split, that's fine. It's not wrong, just less likely to be successful.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm sure Ace got the 75% success rate vs the 74% success rate from _somewhere_:kn: in his _How-To-Split _ thread: 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291085-Split-like-crazy


:gh:


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> It is way easier to confirm that there are queen cells in the split then there are eggs in the basket.


Now that is a great point and a good recommendation for someone with poor eyesight who cannot see eggs. If the colony is to the point that capped swarm cells are visible, then making sure that a frame with capped cells is in each split will produce successful results. 

But to achieve this, frames have to be pulled and examined when the split is being made up. That's my main point, taking a few extra minutes to ensure that you are doing everything you can to improve your chances of success. Not blindly separating boxes and hoping for the best.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> But to achieve this, frames have to be pulled and examined when the split is being made up. That's my main point, taking a few extra minutes to ensure that you are doing everything you can to improve your chances of success. Not blindly separating boxes and hoping for the best.



But Mike that is not what I am saying. Most people will do splits prior to swarm prep. So the queen cells are going to come after you do the split.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

OK. Do your blind splits ... and I wish you the best. 

I'm getting dizzy, going round and round.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

really mike, you have the patience of job.


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## mwhitnell (Nov 29, 2014)

I worked with a commercial beekeeper a few days this December. He was making splits for the almond flow in CA. He used this method exclusively. Only difference was he removed only 2 frames of brood (shake off the bees) and one frame of honey from the main hive. Placed a queen excluder on the main hive, with a hive body atop filled with drawn comb and the 2 frames of brood and honey. Placed a queen (Kona) between the two brood frames. Left it til the next day. Then we removed the top hive body, placed on a new bottom board. Loaded on a truck and trucked them to a new beeyard a few miles away. Then that same day (2) we removed the queen cage and removed the plug and poked a hole thru the candy with a ice pick, replaced the cage between the brood frames. We did 135 hives the first day.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Now that is a great point and a good recommendation for someone with poor eyesight who cannot see eggs. If the colony is to the point that capped swarm cells are visible, then making sure that a frame with capped cells is in each split will produce successful results.
> 
> But to achieve this, frames have to be pulled and examined when the split is being made up. That's my main point, taking a few extra minutes to ensure that you are doing everything you can to improve your chances of success. Not blindly separating boxes and hoping for the best.


I hope you are right. I am building a queen castle to take advantage of this situation. I just hope I get some swarm cells. I understand they make the best queens.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Mike Gillmore said:


> OK. Do your blind splits ... and I wish you the best.
> 
> I'm getting dizzy, going round and round.


How many angels can dance on the head of a pin anyway?


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