# Why a nuc instead of a full colony?



## marathonmedic (Sep 7, 2009)

Ok, this may be kind of a dumb question but I'm trying to figure out why people raise nucs instead of just full colonies. There are lots of discussions on the web about the usefulness of them, but nothing about why they're better than full hives. I see the advantages a nuc (or additional hives) would provide, but what about a nuc makes them more versitile than doing the same things with a regular 8- or 10-frame hive? I've read lots of reasons to have nucs from producing additional brood to providing a source for back-up queens to being a reservoir for swarms. But why would I want the extra equipment when I could do these same things from a full hive that, if left alone, may also produce a bunch of honey which a nuc may not. I can harvest brood from a full hive. I can replace a procution hive's queen and then either allow for an emergency queen or combine the remainder of the hive to another weak hive. It seems that I could do most of the same things with a full hive and then have the benefit of having additional honey production if the hive, or it's components, aren't needed during the season.

I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to see what the difference between the two really is.

Thanks for your thoughts.


----------



## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

first year beek...probably a better way of explaining it but heres my version.
A 5frm nuc is nothing but a baby 8/10frame hive. While bees require room to grow the hive you dont want to give them TOO much room because they have to guard and warm the area thats given. While just starting out....a queen with minimal brood will only need the nuc. just enough room and not so large that they cant protect what they have. As the hive grows in size....then to prevent swarming....those 5frames that are built out...can be placed into a 8/10frm box to give her more room. (or add another 5frm box on top). As for having nucs avaiable......yes much needed. Ready source for your producing hives if a queen or brood/eggs are needed to beef up the larger hive. Consider it insurance for your best hives. kinda like having a child. yes one day they'll be big....but theres a process of growing from baby-child-teen-adult. Same with the nuc growing. Theres much more to nucs but thats the quick version as I understand it.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

The difference is that a small population of bees can better manage a smaller space. And for increasing, a nuc requires less resources. Nuc equipment adds a lot to the hobby.


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

Without being too obvious, the benefit of a nuc is that it's smaller, five or four frames. It functions more like a real hive because you can stack more boxes on top instead of adding frames to the side. Because of that configuration you can over winter it. You put two together and they function as a single hive as far as warmth goes, but you have two hives, two queens to start the spring with. If your swarmy hive makes 10 queens you can give them multiple nucs instead of full boxes that you may not plan on having them ever fill. Have you watched any Michael Palmer videos?


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

"Almost every emergency of management can be met forthwith by putting something into or taking something out of a nucleus, while nuclei themselves seldom present emergencies." E.B. Wedmore, A Manual of Beekeeping

Nucs are versatile. You can use them for a multitude of reasons. Holding queens, re-queening production colonies, making increase, mating queens, drawing comb, queen evaluation, as brood factories, and more. Thing is, with a nucleus colony, you only invest a little in equipment, and they are lighter and easier to handle than a full size production colony.


----------



## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

a nuc is less expensive. you can move your bees into your own hives. unfortunately when you buy bees you are giving a beekeeper a chance to get rid of old equipment. as a new beekeeper hopefully you are starting with nice clean new stuff... Michael palmer's answer above is excellent also.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Pull a frame of brood, a frame of honey, a queen or a cell and you have a productive unit. Less equipment less space. Smaller populstions seem to flourish in smaller spaces but sometimes I wonder if some of that is an illusion. I've worked increases in both singles and nucs, and they both come out of winter looking the same.


----------



## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Good question! If I had my choice I would overwinter full sized hives, but the reality is that when I can make up the new "hives" there isn't time for them to get to full sized hives. But if you want insurance for next spring (or the ability to make some money selling bees) but not lose honey production or weaken your production hives nuc's can be made and overwintered. To be honest most of mine made singles this year so I'm only overwintering a couple of nuc's and a bunch of singles (along with my full sized hives).

So for me, I over winter nuc's because that's what I can get a lot of by fall.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

beedeetee said:


> So for me, I over winter nuc's because that's what I can get a lot of by fall.


Right. In 2011, from 50 over-wintered nucleus colonies, I harvested brood from mid-May to mid-July. I used 245 frames of brood and bees to set up 35 cell builders, and then made 330 nucleus colonies from the remainder. That figures to over 900 frames of brood and bees. What would that have done to my production colonies if I had taken 900 combs of brood? No honey. And, I couldn't have set up full sized production colonies in mid-July and had them survive my Vermont winter.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Ian said:


> Pull a frame of brood, a frame of honey, a queen or a cell and you have a productive unit. Less equipment less space. Smaller populstions seem to flourish in smaller spaces but sometimes I wonder if some of that is an illusion. I've worked increases in both singles and nucs, and they both come out of winter looking the same.


I'm glad to hear that your far greater experience agrees with what I have seen. If you start nucs in hive bodies or nuc boxes seems to make less difference than the difference between individuals. Just fill the space with foundation. A nuc is handier to pick up and move though - I often put them on my tailgate or on top of another hive to work them. 

Don't let a lack of little boxes keep you from starting a nuc.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Especially if I can raise my own queens, overwintering four nucs instead of one strong hive means four young queens in the spring to start four nice colonies. If, instead, I overwintered that one strong colony that's what I have. One strong colony and if I do splits early, it's too early to get well mated queens. In the North a lot of it is the timing of when you can rear queens...

Having nucs around the rest of the year, as Mr. Palmer says, gives you resources to work with.


----------



## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

Interesting discussion. I am new to this and trying to understand it all. So for the nucs you keep all summer to keep them from getting over crowded you pull frames of brood and put into existing hives to keep them larger and then replace a empty frame in the nuc? Also, the over wintering the nucs. The smaller nuc boxes do not get too cold in the winter? When you say you stack nucs on top of each other - do you mean a whole separate nuc (with queen). You put a queen excluder in between each nuc? I think I need to watch some of Michael Palmer's videos. Are these on you tube? Thanks - and I apologize if I am high jacking thread.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

SallyD said:


> Interesting discussion. I am new to this and trying to understand it all. So for the nucs you keep all summer to keep them from getting over crowded you pull frames of brood and put into existing hives to keep them larger and then replace a empty frame in the nuc? Also, the over wintering the nucs. The smaller nuc boxes do not get too cold in the winter? When you say you stack nucs on top of each other - do you mean a whole separate nuc (with queen). You put a queen excluder in between each nuc? I think I need to watch some of Michael Palmer's videos. Are these on you tube? Thanks - and I apologize if I am high jacking thread.


You are even farther South than I am, and I overwinter "nucs" every winter without stacking them or doing anything at all to keep them warmer. Lost zero last winter. Whatever you do you don't want to let the humidity from below harm a nuc stacked on top. Moisture is worse than cold - at least here in the south it is.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

marathonmedic said:


> Ok, this may be kind of a dumb question but I'm trying to figure out why people raise nucs instead of just full colonies.


At the commercial level of raising nucs, there is a market for lots and lots of nucs. Not so much for full sized colonies. For the price of a full sized colony in May a beekeeper can buy 2 or more nucs. Nucs are easier to pick up manually and transport too.

How many hives do you want to buy?


----------



## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Hives are a lot more expensive, but last year I lost both of the hives from the nucs I bought. This year I bought a hive and a nuc. The hive made honey the nuc made bees. Now I have 4 double deeps.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

SallyD said:


> So for the nucs you keep all summer to keep them from getting over crowded you pull frames of brood and put into existing hives to keep them larger and then replace a empty frame in the nuc?


Yes, have a swarm control strategy in place. Depending when you build them and how big you build them. If they are part of your early spring slip, then they will out grow the 5 frame nuc boxes by summer. And yes you can thin them down to build more if wanted, no rules against anything here in beekeeping as long as what ever you do still insures the survival of the colony through winter.
What we do is push two nucs together, merge them with an excluder overhead and stack boxes on top to collect honey. It becomes a two queen unit and they make a truck load of honey. Both units winter separately.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

I love having nuc's I think I have 10 going into winter there all Tri nuc's {3 boxes}. In the summer I use them to make brood for my production hives my bee's seem to make brood faster in the nucs . Plus I like knowing I have lots of bee's and a queen when ever I need one and all my Big hives are safe with lot's of resources near by. Plus ya can sell some bee's while your production hives are making honey. And they winter with less resources and winter easily . The only thing I can say is you have to be on top your hive management or they'll be hanging from the tree's :thumbsup: I


----------



## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

If you can get a full size colony (2 boxes) in March for $350, you can split it 3 - 4 times which works out much cheaper than buying nucs. In addition, you have the equipment that housed the hive.
To me, it seems like that would be a better deal.


----------



## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

GLOCK said:


> I love having nuc's I think I have 10 going into winter there all Tri nuc's {3 boxes}. In the summer I use them to make brood for my production hives my bee's seem to make brood faster in the nucs . Plus I like knowing I have lots of bee's and a queen when ever I need one and all my Big hives are safe with lot's of resources near by. Plus ya can sell some bee's while your production hives are making honey. And they winter with less resources and winter easily . The only thing I can say is you have to be on top your hive management or they'll be hanging from the tree's :thumbsup: I


This is really fascinating to me. So a nuc that has 5 frames...say one or two frames have the queen/pollen and brood and the rest of the 3 frames have honey. You are telling me that three frames of honey is enough to get a nuc through the winter or are you feeding that nuc all winter?


----------



## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

SallyD said:


> This is really fascinating to me. So a nuc that has 5 frames...say one or two frames have the queen/pollen and brood and the rest of the 3 frames have honey. You are telling me that three frames of honey is enough to get a nuc through the winter or are you feeding that nuc all winter?


Think of it this way- if you have 3 frames of honey in a 5 frame nuc, thats 60% of the hive is honey, or 2 frames is 40%honey, if it's 2 story and the second story is all honey you have 50% honey,,,,all are good wintering percentages,,,plus the 50% thats honey weighs a lot more than the 50% thats bees and brood in the bottom box,,It's a full size box in minature, with possibilities 

==McBee7==


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

ericweller said:


> If you can get a full size colony (2 boxes) in March for $350, you can split it 3 - 4 times which works out much cheaper than buying nucs. In addition, you have the equipment that housed the hive.
> To me, it seems like that would be a better deal.


Yeah, but if you already have the production and the nucs, isn't it a better deal to allow the production colony to make honey and use the nuc to make more nucs? You can split the nuc 5-10 times on the flow and winter them.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

SallyD said:


> This is really fascinating to me. So a nuc that has 5 frames...say one or two frames have the queen/pollen and brood and the rest of the 3 frames have honey. You are telling me that three frames of honey is enough to get a nuc through the winter or are you feeding that nuc all winter?


Mine are 2 to 3 boxes high by winter not just 5 frames.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

SallyD said:


> This is really fascinating to me. So a nuc that has 5 frames...say one or two frames have the queen/pollen and brood and the rest of the 3 frames have honey. You are telling me that three frames of honey is enough to get a nuc through the winter or are you feeding that nuc all winter?


SallyD,
If you are talking Nucs sold in the Spring, when I have sold them they were made up in late March or early April by taking a frame of capped brood, plus a frame which had open brood and some pollen, and a frame of honey from a strong hive, including as many adult bees as possible, necessary to keep the brood warm and the "colony" going, and putting those frames in a 5 frame nuc box w/ two empty combs or even a frame of foundation. 

To this I added a queen cell, if it was late March, or a caged queen, if it was early April. Then, late in April or early in May, these nucs were transported from SC, where they were made, to NY, where I live. While in SC they fattened up, the queen got mated and/or got to laying eggs, and by the time it was time to sell these nucs there would be two outside frames which might have some brood on the inside sides of them and three frames of brood in all stages.

I guess, from a customer's point of view, the ideal nuc would be 5 frames of nothing but brood, covered w/ bees and a mated queen. Trouble is, bees have got to have something to eat until it's time to transfer them into full sized equipment and until there is a nectar flow to feed them. Unless the beekeeper wants to and is prepared to feed them artificially.

That's how I do it. Most people I deal with seem okay with what they buy from me, when I sell nucs. 

Wintering a nuc is another kettle of fish.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Wintering a nuc is another kettle of fish.


Dorothy, it's a horse of a different color.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Shirley, you jest. I think that's what I meant, Michael. You da man here. You are the expert. You and Chuck K.


----------



## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

GLOCK said:


> Mine are 2 to 3 boxes high by winter not just 5 frames.


And to me this is a single or full size hive, not a nuc. Just a full size hive put in nuc boxes.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Only it isn't put into nuc boxes. It grows into the upper nuc boxes. If not a three story 5 frame nuc then it is a 5 frame hive, instead of an 8 frame hive. Call it what you want.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

marathonmedic said:


> but I'm trying to figure out why people raise nucs instead of just full colonies.


I would say efficiency for those that are trying to expand their apiary and still make honey. You can do like you say and use a regular 8 frame medium to make nucs and then all your equipment can be the same for what ever you want.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well.....

I make up nucs in a ten frame super, I use a thin 1/4 inch plywood with a bee way all around & give them about an inch entrance. I make the entrances in different formations, I make up the nucs three framers then stack them about seven high with a divider between each one. I have a couple hundred as we speak, I use these as "plug in" for my junk hives as they return to winter locations. Works OK, fast & easy.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> for my junk hives


What is a junk hive?


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Another reason, for those here in the north. If you choose to make your splits "MDA splitter" style from overwintered colonies, and then follow Mike Palmers nuc principles it is possible to grow and overwinter colonies without the need to monitor mites. 
I find that: The brood break at split initiation, the fact that nucs are making workers (not drones), and the brood break over winter all combine in a synergistic manner to make mites irrelevant until the following summer.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Acebird said:


> What is a junk hive?


Ace, a "junk hive" is a hive that is no longer worth dumping feed into, in the fall we grade out (shake out) anything that is low on bee popuations with a poor queen and just plug a ten frame nucs on top of it, "done". Its fast easy way to square up pallets, we don't bother looking for queens.


----------



## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well.....
> 
> I make up nucs in a ten frame super, I use a thin 1/4 inch plywood with a bee way all around & give them about an inch entrance. I make the entrances in different formations, I make up the nucs three framers then stack them about seven high with a divider between each one. I have a couple hundred as we speak, I use these as "plug in" for my junk hives as they return to winter locations. Works OK, fast & easy.


Keith, I am having trouble coming up with a mental picture of this. Do you have a photo of the setup?
The way I read it, is that you have seven nucs stacked on top of each other with separate/individual entrances yet there is a bee space/access for bee populations to mingle throughout... Kind of like a seven queen hive with excluders between each level.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> in the fall we grade out (shake out) anything that is low on bee popuations with a poor queen and just plug a ten frame nucs on top of it,


The nucs are put on top of an empty box or you put them in place of the empty box (shake out)?


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

beedeetee said:


> And to me this is a single or full size hive, not a nuc. Just a full size hive put in nuc boxes.


And they work great.
Well I'll go with NUC/DBL.NUC/TRI NUC/ They are still nuc boxes so they are my nucs.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Acebird said:


> The nucs are put on top of an empty box or you put them in place of the empty box (shake out)?


Ace we put them in place of the empty box, we run bees on bottom board pallets so we have no bottoms nailed onto boxes, so if you have a dud you just shake the bees out (with the bad queen) grab one of your nucs from a stack put the nuc right where you shook the dud hive out.... done..... no pulling frames out, just shake & switch. I will post some pics


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ace, a "junk hive" is a hive that is no longer worth dumping feed into,


Ya us too, 
After the honey pull I make a round to regroup my stock. Anything that is failing with a poor brood pattern or queenless ext, gets nuked! lol Sure helps keep the spaces full in the yards and gives the nucs a boost which make up excellent wintering hives


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Fishman43 said:


> Keith, I am having trouble coming up with a mental picture of this. .


http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/P1010182_zps48e44b94.jpg

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/P1010183_zps2d4669ec.jpg

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/P1010184_zps45b70be7.jpg


----------



## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> Right. In 2011, from 50 over-wintered nucleus colonies, I harvested brood from mid-May to mid-July. I used 245 frames of brood and bees to set up 35 cell builders, and then made 330 nucleus colonies from the remainder. That figures to over 900 frames of brood and bees. What would that have done to my production colonies if I had taken 900 combs of brood? No honey. And, I couldn't have set up full sized production colonies in mid-July and had them survive my Vermont winter.


WOW - :applause: Impressive.


----------



## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ace, a "junk hive" is a hive that is no longer worth dumping feed into, in the fall we grade out (shake out) anything that is low on bee popuations with a poor queen and just plug a ten frame nucs on top of it, "done". Its fast easy way to square up pallets, we don't bother looking for queens.


Hmmm, another useful tip. Thanks


----------



## bean tree homestead (Nov 18, 2013)

Acebird said:


> I would say efficiency for those that are trying to expand their apiary and still make honey. You can do like you say and use a regular 8 frame medium to make nucs and then all your equipment can be the same for what ever you want.


do you just use following boards to fill in the extra space, if you do let’s say a 5 frame nuc for starters in a 8 frame medium?


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bean tree homestead said:


> do you just use following boards to fill in the extra space, if you do let’s say a 5 frame nuc for starters in a 8 frame medium?


I haven't created a nuc with anything but MB can tell you how to do it with mediums. If you have drawn comb I don't know why you couldn't use that instead of follower boards. It might depend on where you are.


----------



## Ottersbugs (May 3, 2013)

I have a friend who runs only nucs and stacks them as high as he can safely reach to work them. He has a bad back and has found that the bees he runs in them fill out frames faster and more completely (no empty frames in a box) and were almost explosive in the Spring with their startup. I am trying to overwinter a few splits from this year, they are currently 2 high and I will keep everyone posted as to their progress or demise...


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> Yeah, but if you already have the production and the nucs, isn't it a better deal to allow the production colony to make honey and use the nuc to make more nucs? You can split the nuc 5-10 times on the flow and winter them.


Are you still working with 5 frame nucs at all now Mike, or are you switched all over to four?


----------



## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

SallyD said:


> Interesting discussion. I am new to this and trying to understand it all. So for the nucs you keep all summer to keep them from getting over crowded you pull frames of brood and put into existing hives to keep them larger and then replace a empty frame in the nuc? Also, the over wintering the nucs. The smaller nuc boxes do not get too cold in the winter? When you say you stack nucs on top of each other - do you mean a whole separate nuc (with queen). You put a queen excluder in between each nuc? I think I need to watch some of Michael Palmer's videos. Are these on you tube? Thanks - and I apologize if I am high jacking thread.


I'm in Charlotte. We are like Atlanta but you always get it 4 hours earlier. A nuc is a starter for a hive that will in the spring hopefully grow into a double deep. This time of year if we have a nuc, instead of moving it into a single deep as it grows we would put another nuc box on top for expansion. You would not use a queen excluder because the brood tends to move up as the season progresses. In the more northern regions they would also stack nucs, with a divider or a bottom or top cover between so that the hives can share the warmth from one another. We don't usually need to do that.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Are you still working with 5 frame nucs at all now Mike, or are you switched all over to four?


I've always used 4 frame nucs.


----------



## Tony Rogers (Oct 18, 2012)

Keith Jarrett said:


> http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/P1010182_zps48e44b94.jpg
> 
> http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/P1010183_zps2d4669ec.jpg
> 
> http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/P1010184_zps45b70be7.jpg


Keith, If I understand you correctly, you make up nucs with good queens. When you pallets come back, you pulled the boxes off the pallets that have a weak hive, the nuc is then placed upon the pallet and you shake out the bees and queen on the ground in front of the pallets. I assume the bees that have been shaken out enter the nuc that has been placed on the pallet? Do you located the old queen and killer her?


----------

