# Sticky  Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages



## Fusion_power

There are hundreds of variations of hive designs proposed over the years. I'm going to attempt to describe these designs in terms of common design and use features. From this information, a beekeeper can make choices of hive type and management required.

Skep type hives, box hives, clay tube hives, and bee gums (chunk of hollow log with top and bottom added) all share the same basic structure and method of management. Bees are housed in a cavity with enough room for brood and surplus honey. These type hives are labor intensive for harvesting honey but relatively low maintenance otherwise. Skeps are harvested by removing the bees either by driving them from the skep or by killing them with sulfur. Box hives and bee gums can be opened from the top and honey harvested from above the cross-sticks. Clay tube hives as used in Egypt are harvested by opening the back of the hive and cutting out combs of honey. These type hives are least common denominator in terms of cost to build and operate. They are commonly used in subsistence agriculture. It is difficult to achieve significant honey production with these type hives.

Top bar hives are oriented horizontally so the bees will make moveable combs. The first truly moveable comb hive was arguably the Greek inverted cone straw hive which is a moveable frame type hive with topbars from which combs are built. This hive dates back a few thousand years and counts as the first moveable comb hive. The defining characteristic of top bar hives is that the combs can't be extracted. They have support only from the top bar and don't stand up very well to being spun for extraction. Top bar hives can be made from wood, half a 55 gallon drum, plastic containers, or other available materials. Honey is collected by cutting combs from topbars, squeezing, and straining. The primary advantage of topbar hives is that hives can be split, inspected, re-queened, etc. The disadvantages revolve around primitive methods of harvesting honey.

Box hives with frames are the next general category. These hives are usually oriented horizontally and do not have separate boxes for honey storage. Box hives are a step up from top bar hives because the frames can be extracted. These type hives are relatively labor intensive because the beekeeper has to be there to remove frames full of honey, extract, then return the frames to the hive to be re-filled. The Layens hive common in Spain and various horizontal frame hives such as are used in large parts of Russia and Ukraine are examples of this type. These hives have all the advantages of modern hives but are relatively labor intensive for honey collection and require more management by the beekeeper.

Frame hives with separate honey storage are industry standard. These hives are exemplified by Langstroth and modified Dadant designs. One or more boxes is dedicated for brood and winter stores while more boxes are used for surplus honey. Moveable frames with bee space are used throughout. The advantages include ease of splitting, re-queening, producing queens, collecting honey, etc. The disadvantages are primarily that common hive designs are inherently flawed but because they are standard and widely used, there is no incentive to change. Langstroth hives have a flaw that one box does not provide enough brood space for a prolific queen. Dadant hives have room for a prolific queen but are very heavy when full. British Nationals are even more confining than Langstroths. Frame spacing varies from 31 to 40 mm center to center with 35 being most common. The most important disadvantage is that these hives are relatively expensive compared to the others. This precludes use in many 3rd world economies.


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## Michael Bush

>It is difficult to achieve significant honey production with these type hives.

One of the most profitable and productive beekeepers in American History was using simple box hives (no frames) and set against using any of the "patent" hives. Moses Quinby would completely disagree with your assessment. He produced a lot of honey, a lot of queens and made a lot of money at it. 
http://astore.amazon.com/thepracbeek-20/detail/1435744691

Nicol Jacobi would also disagree. He was doing the same back in 1578 when he wrote about grafting queens and doing walk away splits and keeping bees in boxes with no frames.
http://astore.amazon.com/thepracbeek-20/detail/1614762570


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## gnor

Michael Bush: -
Quinby and Jacobi just affirmed what I was already beginning to figure out: - that the bees will make the most of almost any shelter available. You could probably raise them in old tires and they would do OK. When I started, I decided to go with Langstroth hives, but looking back, I can see that whatever system I chose would be because of a perceived advantage for me. The bees could care less.


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## Fusion_power

> whatever system I chose would be because of a perceived advantage for me


Putting bees into a small box that limits their ability to expand would still be a problem. Otherwise, I agree that so long as the box is big enough, the rest of it is based on management convenience for the beekeeper.



> Moses Quinby would completely disagree with your assessment.


I wrote that with full knowledge that Quinby flooded the market with comb honey using box hives. My statement was intended to highlight per hive averages. Would you argue that keeping bees in boxes is more productive than in a moveable frame hive where they can be manipulated to become more productive?

Did anyone else notice that I did not mention the Warre hive above? Where would it fit?


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## Michael Bush

>Would you argue that keeping bees in boxes is more productive than in a moveable frame hive where they can be manipulated to become more productive?

I don't live in a place where it is a choice, so I have not considered it too much, but have been intrigued by Quinby's view that it IS more productive. He held that you can't make money in beekeeping if you spend it all on equipment.


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## Fusion_power

> you can't make money in beekeeping if you spend it all on equipment.


I would add, "You can't make money in beekeeping if you spend it all on labor." There has to be a point somewhere in the middle where cost of equipment and cost of labor are at a minimum so profit can be realized.


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## ABK

Just when I think that someone's done enough research to finally start drawing up some conclusions, someone comes in and provides an argument (nonetheless viable) to scratch the conclusions right off the board.. The thing that I hate and love about beekeeping.

I haven't read that book, but can someone who has tell me how he produced so much honey? Is it just by the shear amount of hives he had? I'd imagine it set him back quite a bit to have to wait for his bees to build out all the comb every year before they can start packing it with honey. I think Mike answered Fusion's statement in that it IS possible to produce a lot of honey with box hives...if you have a million of them. 

Was there any research done with sister colonies kept in different styles of boxes?


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## Fusion_power

ABK, if you follow the argument above, you will note that Quinby's honey production was labor intensive. He made the argument that you couldn't make money if you spent it all on equipment. He lived in a day and time when labor was cheap and equipment expensive. I countered with the argument that you can't make money if you spend it all on labor. We live in a time when labor is expensive and equipment relatively cheap. This is a pendulum that - if pushed too far one way or the other - takes the profit out of beekeeping. There are plenty of beekeepers who spend huge amounts of money on equipment but do not recover the cost in honey or other hive products sold.

I put in nearly a year studying hive types and their advantages and disadvantages to figure out why my beekeeping efforts consume so much time and are relatively unprofitable. That does not mean I didn't make some money, it means that it was not as profitable as I wanted it to be. The problem I had was using relatively large amounts of equipment and spending way too much time managing the bees as a result. I want to reduce the management requirements as much as possible while still producing a profitable amount of honey.

Quinby was producing and selling comb honey. The best quality comb honey is from freshly drawn combs. He made money by giving the bees room to draw combs and then cutting out and selling the comb honey. He made up in volume for whatever inefficiencies came as a result of the primitive hives.

Quinby designed a hive and frame that were later adapted and adopted by Dadant. The Dadant hive was not exactly an original Dadant invention, it was derived from Quinby's work.


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## Colobee

Fusion_power said:


> Frame hives with separate honey storage are industry standard.


Are there still some states that _don't_ require removable frames for inspection? Quinby may have lucked out in that regard.

Nice summary, Dar - thanks!


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## Michael Bush

>I haven't read that book, but can someone who has tell me how he produced so much honey? Is it just by the shear amount of hives he had? 

He was a very good beekeeper.

>Are there still some states that don't require removable frames for inspection? 

Still? No. At one time (in Quinby's lifetime) they all did. Now a few have just wiped the books on apiary laws and have no restrictions.


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## ABK

Fusion, since you've done so much research on all these different hive designs, could you say why you concluded the layens design is labor intensive for honey collection and requires more management? I listened to Dr. Leo Sharashkin's speech on the Layens and he is a large proponent on this design, with one of the greatest stated advantages of it being the minimal maintenance required. He presented it as though the hive was designed and commonly used by beekeepers who visit it once in the spring and once in the fall. I see how honey collection may be tricky using a lang deep honey extractor, but surely there must be an extractor that fits these hugely deep frames? I'm seeing a lot of advantages to this hive design that make a lot of sense. Of course I have to mention that I'm not a commercial beek and have no intention on transporting my hives. But the strong insulation of the hives, their ability to expand with the broodnest horizontally, and allow for up to 16 inches of uninterrupted vertical comb seems like a great advantage over the lang deep design that requires the bees to move up every 9 inches or so to reach the super above.

I'm all ears


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## Fusion_power

You can purchase an extractor from Swienty that will handle Layens frames. It will be expensive. You are correct that there are advantages in terms of the bees and their needs, especially as compared with Langstroth equipment. The difficulty comes with overall size of the hive. The stated design capacity is @6400 cubic inches of volume as compared with two Langstroth boxes which are about 6000 cubic inches. The problem is that a strong colony will completely fill up two Langstroth boxes and typically needs 2 times - or more - that much honey storage space. The way this is managed in Spain is to pull frames of honey as they are capped, extract them, then return the frames to the colony to be refilled. This infers many more visits to the hive than "once in the spring and once in the fall". Read through his site carefully and you will see that he recommends making it larger if your area will support more honey collection. Let's say you double the size of each hive giving equivalent of 4 Langstroth deeps in capacity. Now you have a hive that is way too large for a wintering colony and no easy way to reduce the volume. You could make follower boards, but that would separate the combs in one side from the bees in the other leaving the combs unprotected and open to wax moth and hive beetle damage. Layens' design is not amenable to adding a super on top such as with Langstroth or Dadant equipment, in fact, adding a super would eliminate most of the advantages of a horizontal hive. If you made the hives to a fixed size based on his dimensions, the bees will fill that volume and then swarm repeatedly. You would have to use foundationless frames with this hive, nobody on this side of the pond makes it that large. That means a huge amount of drone comb. Short summary, there is no flexibility with this hive type to add or remove honey storage space, an extractor will be expensive, and you will be forced into foundationless frames.

Any hive design you choose will have deficiencies and represents a compromise between what the bees need and what the beekeeper needs. Honeybees are happy with any open cavity with from 2000 to 4000 cubic inches of open space and have very little preference for the shape of that cavity. Beekeepers need a hive small enough to lift, large enough to be cost efficient, easily expanded for honey storage, large enough for good wintering, and standard enough to be easily sold in the future.

The insulation value of 1.5 inch thick pine is about R=2. You would be far better off to add a 3/4 inch thick sheet of polyisocyanurate with R value of 6 to get something high enough to be effective.




> He was a very good beekeeper.


Quinby was an exceptionally good beekeeper, however, he could not hold a candle to a modern beekeeper using the right equipment and understanding bee behavior. Read through his writings carefully and there are dozens of small but significant mistakes such as using a hive too small for a prolific queen and insisting on small storage boxes for the honey crop. The way he made so much honey was from having so many colonies of bees. This means his labor costs were much too high by modern standards.


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## crofter

Fusion_power said:


> Quinby was an exceptionally good beekeeper, however, he could not hold a candle to a modern beekeeper using the right equipment and understanding bee behavior. Read through his writings carefully and there are dozens of small but significant mistakes such as using a hive too small for a prolific queen and insisting on small storage boxes for the honey crop. The way he made so much honey was from having so many colonies of bees. This means his labor costs were much too high by modern standards.


I have snipped FP quote; I think that the same thing applies to most all the historical beekeepers. I think often isolated writings are quoted in discussions as being definitive proof of a concept in a present argument, when many of their other equally held beliefs could be called to question. Appeal to antiquity. No doubt many of todays authorities will be found similarly treated by history. The relative value of things change.


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## cerezha

Fusion_power said:


> ...Did anyone else notice that I did not mention the Warre hive above? Where would it fit?


 Not only Warre, you missed Perrone, Rose, Japanese, Slavic, Ukranian long, etc. I do not understand your point? Was it that bees can live in any suitable size cavity? The design of the "cavity" is heavily affected by purpose of beekeeping, convenience, particular cultural traditions etc.


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## Fusion_power

> Was it that bees can live in any suitable size cavity?


Yes, this is precisely the point. Bees need a cavity of about 1500 to 6000 cubic inches volume for the brood nest. All other hive design characteristics are for the beekeeper. This means the beekeeper should look at resources available and method of management to determine the type hive to keep bees. A dirt poor farmer in Tanzania is not likely to be able to afford Langstroth equipment. He will use a top bar hive or a hollow log. A gentleman farmer in England will likely use British National because that is the most common hive in Britain. An American commercial beekeeper will most likely use Langstroth deeps because it is the standard here and it has a time proven management style.

I'm particularly impressed with the Rose hive and associated method of management. I would not use Rose hives because I can see their inherent design flaws. Each box contains 12 frames with nominal comb space of 105 square inches per comb and requires 24 frames (in 2 boxes) for nominal wintering hive configuration. He got a huge amount of the design right, especially as compared with Langstroth hives. He missed that a single large brood chamber is more cost efficient and more efficient for queen laying than using multiple boxes. He also missed that there are a minimum of 24 frames to inspect to find a queen or otherwise go through a colony. By comparison, I am using square deep Dadant hives with 14 frames which gives nominal capacity almost identical to 2 Rose boxes but is more efficient for queen laying because there are fewer corners in the frames and there are only 14 frames to inspect for the queen. It is very important to me that the brood nest be easy to inspect as I intend to produce queens! If not for the desire to produce queens, I could easily have chosen the Rose hive design.

Japanese garden hives are very similar to a frameless Warre. Ukrainian hives are very similar in function to Layens.

Perone hives get a lot right, particularly the part about having a large hive for the bees and plenty of room to store honey. They are not a movable frame design and finding and managing the queen would be very difficult. If I were keeping bees under primitive conditions, the Perone hive would be a good candidate because it can be built and managed at low cost and with low technology tools.

To give perspective, here are the reasons I chose to convert to Dadant square deep hives.

1. There are only 14 frames to examine to find a queen, inspect, etc.
2. All of the brood a prolific queen can produce will fit in one brood box
3. It has enough room for wintering in one box
4. It is designed to run a horizontal 2 queen system using a divider
5. It reduces crowding effects so the bees are less likely to swarm
6. The wide entrance improves ventilation 
7. The brood nest is more consolidated instead of being spread across multiple boxes of combs
8. My extractor was made to handle this size comb, the frames will fit my existing system if I need to extract
9. Easy to use to produce queens, just put a divider in place like a cloake board and have at it
10. It allows me to re-use the shallow extracting frames I already have, just add square supers.
11. It is highly efficient for space utilization
12. It costs less for a complete working hive than most other movable frame stackable super designs
13. It is much less likely to blow over in a strong wind
14. Square modified Dadant hives can easily be palletized

and here are the detriments
1. A box full of honey will weight a bit over 100 pounds, not good for the back
2. These are obviously not standard which is a detriment if I ever sell out
3. Equipment is not normally available in the U.S., I have to custom build the frames and other hive components
4. Splitting has to be done by moving frames instead of separating boxes.

Compare the above 14 points carefully with the Rose hive and you will find that the Rose system falls short on 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, and 11 of the advantages but gains ground on items 1 and 4 of the detriments.


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## cerezha

Hi Fusion Power
Since you feel that large square frames are beneficial, would it be easier to keep them in horizontal arrangement (long hive) rather than vertical? Since I am amateur I designed my own beehive. It is a marriage of the old Lang and Perrone. Perrone, originally uses Lang dimensions. The distinguished feature of Perrone hive is the "grid." Essentially, what I did - I just cut grid on pieces (top-bars), so together they formed a grid-like structure. Each piece is essentially a top-bar. I use this top-bar system in vertical and horizontal designs with standard Lang's dimensions. There are "adapters" to use the standard frames when necessary. My system is designed for my own needs and is not convenient for large scale operation. To me, the advantage is that I can mix top-bars and regular frames in foundationless, frameless setup. Another convenience is that top-bars are universal and can be used with the box of any height.


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## BernhardHeuvel

The best thing on a square modified Dadant hive is, it is adaptable. You use the follower board and the queen excluder right, and you will see magic happen. Magically the box explodes with bees, and fills up with honey. 

Of course there is no magic, but a lot of bee biology behind it. 










By shrinking or expanding the broodnest size to the queens ability to lay eggs, the broodnest ends up very compact. This has an interesting effect. Bees seem to get older. When it comes to population growth it certainly matters if the bees don't die so quickly. If there are more bees born than bees do die, than growth is exponential. And exponential growth really can surprise you.

Never give more than 7 combs (Dadant mod. that is) per hive. It is our experience, that if you add an eighth frame, you end up with swarm fever. In a two queen hive setup, never give more than 3-4 combs per queen. Same thing, you give one more frame and they'll fill it with brood quickly ... and swarm. 










You can experiment yourself with this, add a comb here and there and compare. 

If your queen doesn't fill all the combs with brood, take away one comb. A lot of hives run on 5 frames only.

Of course one could say: "why not using an 8-frame hive. You don't need all that space!"

But there is more to it. At night and in bad weather all the foragers and drones and all, are clustering. In a normal hive, those bees cluster right under the broodnest, under the frames in a deep floor setup. If your floor isn't a deep floor, those bees cluster within the broodnest. Clustering in the broodnest is a bad thing. 

First old bees are nasty and do harass the queen. In those hives you often find the queen ducking against the queen excluder at nighttime, to move out of the way of the buggers. Drones are also annoying the worker bees in the broodnest. 

Secondly the hive climate really gets damp and short on oxygen, the more bees cramp into the broodnest. 

The solution is, to let the foragers and drones cluster somewhere else. A deep floor is good, so the cluster can hang under the broodnest. But the cluster on the side of the broodnest is even better, because there is no plug between broodnest and entrance. Lots of fresh air can reach the brood.

In a modified Dadant with only 7 combs and a follower board, you'll find the cluster at the side of the broodnest, hanging down from the queen excluder. This picture was shot on a rainy day. You find the same at nighttime.










The other thing of open space beside the broodnest is, you have a speedway right into the supers. Lots of foragers walk straight right up into the supers. Which accelerates the speed nectar is tucked away. Compared to other hive systems, the nectar is stored much more rapidly. That is part of the magic, how fast those supers get filled with honey.

In an experiment you also find the following: 










The picture above was shot at Springtime with cold nights and all. You see the broodnest under this super has 5 frames. If you setup your honey combs parallel to the brood combs, those combs right above the broodnest are preferred for honey storage. 

Now see what happens, if you turn the honey combs 90° to the brood combs:










This hive also have had only 5 brood frames. Both were the same strength. Interesting, right?

So the idea is, set the honeycombs at an angle to the brood combs, which makes the bees climb up the brood combs and climbing right into the honey combs, having access to all honeycombs from there. 

When inspecting the hive, you turn the honey supers 180°, so the tendency to store honey at the far end viewed from the entrance is evened. What you get is honeycombs with all honey of the same quality. Otherwise you have dry honey in the back of the super and wet honey in the front. 

Also evened storage means more honey per super. 










One last thing. Do use insulated follower boards. Of course this doesn't make the hive warmer or so. But: it is our experience, that the outer combs get less pollen and more healthy brood, when the facing wall is insulated. If that outer comb is too cold, the comb receives less brood, especially during Spring. 

Yes, you get best results when using insulated follower boards on both sides of the broodnest. 










We use hardened styrodur for this. It is styrofoam that was hardened by heat. Not toxic, can't get chewed by bees and insulates very well. 

Use shallow honey supers. Better for your back. 

It is good to have so much space inside the brood chamber. Use a divider board or two: Run 2 queen hives in them, make splits, all done with the same equipment. Use a double-frame-sized frame feeder. Enough space for all of it. Versatility counts.

I tried a many hives. The modified Dadant hive is what produces the most of honey with the least of work. That is a fact. The square setup also allows manipulations as described in short above, that does magic. 

An old-timer used to say: Not the hive brings the honey, the bees do. That is right, but if you have the hive, that fits beeology best, the bees do better. 

The square modified Dadant not only adapts to the bee biology, it also allows the beekeeper to work more freely. Simply push frame aside and inspect. Not much pulling combs, just some sliding. Done. Saves your back, too. :thumbsup:


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## ABK

Very excellently presented arguments. I'm hoping others with as much experience that are proponents of different styles chime in.


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## Fusion_power

Thanks Bernhard, hard won hands on experience is the best experience. I can see a dozen changes in the way I'm managing these hives already. I just got the first frames drawn over the last 3 months so I have not until now had the time and opportunity to study how the hives should be managed. I especially like the tip of turning the supers 90 degrees. This can't be done with rectangular designs like Langstroth. Looks like I just added another 4 items to the list of advantages for the square Dadant hive.

15. Can turn the supers 90 degrees so the bees fill them evenly and mature the honey all at one time.
16. Provides clustering space at night and in rainy weather
17. Diverts foragers from the broodnest directly into the supers
18. Can easily adjust the number of brood frames to fit the queen's ability

I think it all finally clicked for me. I know why I started building these hives, it was based on technical reasons. Now I can see how they should work and will work. Now I have a dozen questions, but first, I need to get busy and make a few dozen follower boards. I've been so busy building the hives and frames that I haven't had time to make them.


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## Michael Bush

You are entitled to your opinions, of course. Here are mine.

>1. There are only 14 frames to examine to find a queen, inspect, etc.
Looking at more smaller increments makes the job of finding a queen easier, not harder. Having spend entire days looking for queens in both all deeps and all mediums, I would much rather find queens in mediums.

>2. All of the brood a prolific queen can produce will fit in one brood box
I don't understand why this is an advantage. It helps in what way?

>3. It has enough room for wintering in one box
I don't understand why this is an advantage. It helps in what way?

>4. It is designed to run a horizontal 2 queen system using a divider
I guess I'm not that interested in running two queen hives... but yes, I've used 19 7/8" square boxes for that and found them very inconvenient. Too many boxes to move to check on the brood nest.

>5. It reduces crowding effects so the bees are less likely to swarm
Adding boxes does the same as does opening the brood nest. I have my doubts that they are less likely to swarm just because it's all in one box...

>6. The wide entrance improves ventilation 
Again, I disagree. My long term observation is that they ventilate better with one small entrance. They need control.

>7. The brood nest is more consolidated instead of being spread across multiple boxes of combs
The brood nest is always consolidated. If more room helps with swarming then the gaps between the boxes should help with cluster space...

>8. My extractor was made to handle this size comb, the frames will fit my existing system if I need to extract
Mine wasn't and won't.

>9. Easy to use to produce queens, just put a divider in place like a cloake board and have at it
I don't see that it's any easier. In fact how are you going to manipulate brood and bees when you have extra deep frames in the bottom and you want to get nurse bees up in the upper part?

>10. It allows me to re-use the shallow extracting frames I already have, just add square supers.
I can't lift them...

>11. It is highly efficient for space utilization
Meaning what? You mean volume/surface area? Then you want a dome or a sphere... I don't see the advantage.

>12. It costs less for a complete working hive than most other movable frame stackable super designs
If it were standard equipment, this would probably be true. But then I couldn't lift any of it...

>13. It is much less likely to blow over in a strong wind
Much? Maybe a little. 14 hives all up against each other dont' blow over in a strong wind either.

>14. Square modified Dadant hives can easily be palletized
As can any hive.


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## dtrooster

Bernhardt bringing game to the discussion, sweet. I'd be interested in a thread devoted just to square brood boxes and or variants of it. Is there one I'm not seeing? I'm new so have no biases or opinions as of yet, an open book so to speak


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## texanbelchers

Bernhard, for clarity, am I right in assuming your follower boards are frame sized and the division board is box width? There seems to be an unfortunate disparity in definitions on these.


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## ABK

Mike it seems like you have a vested interest in protecting langstroth equipment, or rather in keeping dadant off the market judging my your trying to shoot down each argument. What gives?


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## dtrooster

The man uses all 8 frame mediums, has his opinions and isn't scared to back them. The thread is about different hive equipment, he's not derailing a thread of any specific thing. I doubt seriously he could care less what equipment somebody else decides to use.


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## BernhardHeuvel

texanbelchers said:


> Bernhard, for clarity, am I right in assuming your follower boards are frame sized and the division board is box width?


You're right.


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## Michael Bush

>Mike it seems like you have a vested interest in protecting langstroth equipment, or rather in keeping dadant off the market judging my your trying to shoot down each argument. What gives?

It's not like I've never tried them and it's not that I'm trying to shoot anything down. I have some of everything except Warre's. I have no thing against any of them, but having experimented with them all, that's my opinion. I have dadant deeps in 12 frame, 22 frame and 33 frame boxes. I have deeps in 5, 8, 10, 12, 22, and 33 frame boxes. I have mediums in 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10, 22 and 33 frame boxes. I'm just saying, having tried bees in all of those, this is my opinion.


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## Cristian

BernhardHeuvel said:


> The best thing on a square modified Dadant hive is, it is adaptable. You use the follower board and the queen excluder right, and you will see magic happen. Magically the box explodes with bees, and fills up with honey.
> 
> Of course there is no magic, but a lot of bee biology behind it.
> 
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> By shrinking or expanding the broodnest size to the queens ability to lay eggs, the broodnest ends up very compact. This has an interesting effect. Bees seem to get older. When it comes to population growth it certainly matters if the bees don't die so quickly. If there are more bees born than bees do die, than growth is exponential. And exponential growth really can surprise you.
> 
> Never give more than 7 combs (Dadant mod. that is) per hive. It is our experience, that if you add an eighth frame, you end up with swarm fever. In a two queen hive setup, never give more than 3-4 combs per queen. Same thing, you give one more frame and they'll fill it with brood quickly ... and swarm.
> 
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> You can experiment yourself with this, add a comb here and there and compare.
> 
> If your queen doesn't fill all the combs with brood, take away one comb. A lot of hives run on 5 frames only.
> 
> Of course one could say: "why not using an 8-frame hive. You don't need all that space!"
> 
> But there is more to it. At night and in bad weather all the foragers and drones and all, are clustering. In a normal hive, those bees cluster right under the broodnest, under the frames in a deep floor setup. If your floor isn't a deep floor, those bees cluster within the broodnest. Clustering in the broodnest is a bad thing.
> 
> First old bees are nasty and do harass the queen. In those hives you often find the queen ducking against the queen excluder at nighttime, to move out of the way of the buggers. Drones are also annoying the worker bees in the broodnest.
> 
> Secondly the hive climate really gets damp and short on oxygen, the more bees cramp into the broodnest.
> 
> The solution is, to let the foragers and drones cluster somewhere else. A deep floor is good, so the cluster can hang under the broodnest. But the cluster on the side of the broodnest is even better, because there is no plug between broodnest and entrance. Lots of fresh air can reach the brood.
> 
> In a modified Dadant with only 7 combs and a follower board, you'll find the cluster at the side of the broodnest, hanging down from the queen excluder. This picture was shot on a rainy day. You find the same at nighttime.
> 
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> 
> 
> The other thing of open space beside the broodnest is, you have a speedway right into the supers. Lots of foragers walk straight right up into the supers. Which accelerates the speed nectar is tucked away. Compared to other hive systems, the nectar is stored much more rapidly. That is part of the magic, how fast those supers get filled with honey.
> 
> In an experiment you also find the following:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> The picture above was shot at Springtime with cold nights and all. You see the broodnest under this super has 5 frames. If you setup your honey combs parallel to the brood combs, those combs right above the broodnest are preferred for honey storage.
> 
> Now see what happens, if you turn the honey combs 90° to the brood combs:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> This hive also have had only 5 brood frames. Both were the same strength. Interesting, right?
> 
> So the idea is, set the honeycombs at an angle to the brood combs, which makes the bees climb up the brood combs and climbing right into the honey combs, having access to all honeycombs from there.
> 
> When inspecting the hive, you turn the honey supers 180°, so the tendency to store honey at the far end viewed from the entrance is evened. What you get is honeycombs with all honey of the same quality. Otherwise you have dry honey in the back of the super and wet honey in the front.
> 
> Also evened storage means more honey per super.
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> One last thing. Do use insulated follower boards. Of course this doesn't make the hive warmer or so. But: it is our experience, that the outer combs get less pollen and more healthy brood, when the facing wall is insulated. If that outer comb is too cold, the comb receives less brood, especially during Spring.
> 
> Yes, you get best results when using insulated follower boards on both sides of the broodnest.
> 
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> 
> We use hardened styrodur for this. It is styrofoam that was hardened by heat. Not toxic, can't get chewed by bees and insulates very well.
> 
> Use shallow honey supers. Better for your back.
> 
> It is good to have so much space inside the brood chamber. Use a divider board or two: Run 2 queen hives in them, make splits, all done with the same equipment. Use a double-frame-sized frame feeder. Enough space for all of it. Versatility counts.
> 
> I tried a many hives. The modified Dadant hive is what produces the most of honey with the least of work. That is a fact. The square setup also allows manipulations as described in short above, that does magic.
> 
> An old-timer used to say: Not the hive brings the honey, the bees do. That is right, but if you have the hive, that fits beeology best, the bees do better.
> 
> The square modified Dadant not only adapts to the bee biology, it also allows the beekeeper to work more freely. Simply push frame aside and inspect. Not much pulling combs, just some sliding. Done. Saves your back, too. :thumbsup:


Bernhard , please describe the whole management with this box for full seson ( production hives , nucs ) . The thing that intrigued me is that they aren't building wild comb after the follower board 😮 . The second thought that I've had is how are you proceeding with their food reserve for hard times when no flow is present ( just 100-200 g/day if not ZERO FLOW ) . What is left for them if if you take the supers to extract honey ? Just what is left in brood chamber ? . 

Please if you can explain the whole thing because otherwise I am ( and maybe other colleagues ) are in clouds . 👍


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## Fusion_power

MB, I'm going to answer your critique with my reasons for each item. As you said, You are entitled to your opinions. Here are mine. SD below means the square deep Modified Dadant hive aka Brother Adam hive that holds 12 standard frames or 14 of my narrow 31.5 mm frames.

>>1. There are only 14 frames to examine to find a queen, inspect, etc.
>Looking at more smaller increments makes the job of finding a queen easier, not harder. Having spend entire days looking for queens in both all deeps and all mediums, I would much rather find queens in mediums.
I've already tried these enough to know that I can usually find the queen by inspecting a maximum of 7 frames. The savings is time and time is important in getting the job done quickly.

>>2. All of the brood a prolific queen can produce will fit in one brood box
>I don't understand why this is an advantage. It helps in what way?
Queens that are unrestricted tend to lay more often making a small but measurable difference in size of the colony. Gaps between frames in vertical stacks of boxes present a restriction.

>>3. It has enough room for wintering in one box
>I don't understand why this is an advantage. It helps in what way?
I've always had to use 2 or 3 boxes for wintering which means there is a lot of uneaten honey at the end of winter. This is an impediment to spring buildup. Empty frames would be more useful given that local early flows here tend to be heavy.

>>4. It is designed to run a horizontal 2 queen system using a divider
>I guess I'm not that interested in running two queen hives... but yes, I've used 19 7/8" square boxes for that and found them very inconvenient. Too many boxes to move to check on the brood nest.
There is only one box for the brood nest. My plan is to run 2-queen over winter, not during the summer. I will pull 1 queen prior to the main flow leaving brood from 2 queens to produce the honey crop.

>>5. It reduces crowding effects so the bees are less likely to swarm
>Adding boxes does the same as does opening the brood nest. I have my doubts that they are less likely to swarm just because it's all in one box...
The reduction in crowding is a result of giving the bees room to cluster and room for ventilation away from the brood nest. This is not present in other hive designs.

>>6. The wide entrance improves ventilation
>Again, I disagree. My long term observation is that they ventilate better with one small entrance. They need control.
I'm in the deep south, getting rid of summer heat and humidity is more important here than in Nebraska. Upper and lower entrances are necessary.

>>7. The brood nest is more consolidated instead of being spread across multiple boxes of combs
>The brood nest is always consolidated. If more room helps with swarming then the gaps between the boxes should help with cluster space...
The objective is to have brood in one area, cluster space in another with not much overlap. The count of frames containing brood will be less.

>>8. My extractor was made to handle this size comb, the frames will fit my existing system if I need to extract
>Mine wasn't and won't.
There is an advantage to having purchased a Kelley 4 frame motorized extractor 25 years ago. It is over 50 years old now and still going strong.

>>9. Easy to use to produce queens, just put a divider in place like a cloake board and have at it
>I don't see that it's any easier. In fact how are you going to manipulate brood and bees when you have extra deep frames in the bottom and you want to get nurse bees up in the upper part?
There is no upper part, only a left part and a right part. I'll move frames across the divider into the queenless area to initiate cell building. I'll use a double queen excluder in place of the divider to finish the cells. Think Cloake board in a vertical position.

>>10. It allows me to re-use the shallow extracting frames I already have, just add square supers.
>I can't lift them...
I'm fortunate to still be able to lift a square shallow super, they weigh about 50 pounds and extract about 33 pounds of honey each.

>>11. It is highly efficient for space utilization
>Meaning what? You mean volume/surface area? Then you want a dome or a sphere... I don't see the advantage.
Brood areas tend to be ovals, the deeper frames allow a more efficient oval to be formed. Think of 2 deep Langstroth boxes used for brood as in most colonies today and in a hive 20 inches high. The same brood area will fit in SD's 14 inches high. What the Langstroth hives do in 6000 cubic inches can be done in 4000 cubic inches in a Square Dadant.

>>12. It costs less for a complete working hive than most other movable frame stackable super designs
>If it were standard equipment, this would probably be true. But then I couldn't lift any of it...
It is standard equipment... In most of Europe. I can't do anything about your ability to lift.

>>13. It is much less likely to blow over in a strong wind
>Much? Maybe a little. 14 hives all up against each other dont' blow over in a strong wind either.
There is a 42% increase in stability on a square base as compared to a rectangular base of the sizes in question. I would have to stack boxes 12 feet high to have a problem with wind throw. I'm sitting 4 hives per stand in a square configuration. That should gain me another 4 feet of height if needed. I should be so lucky.

>>14. Square modified Dadant hives can easily be palletized
>As can any hive.
The chief advantage comes from less height for a given number of colonies. I agree that most hives can be palletized, but that does not mean they could easily be worked on pallets.

>15. Can turn the supers 90 degrees so the bees fill them evenly and mature the honey all at one time.
I can already see it is an important advantage compared to other hive designs.

>16. Provides clustering space at night and in rainy weather
There is more than enough room for brood, clustering, and spare frames of honey in a SD.

>17. Diverts foragers from the broodnest directly into the supers
An advantage of being able to set the entrance to the other side of the brood nest and give the bees a direct vertical path to the supers.

>18. Can easily adjust the number of brood frames to fit the queen's ability
Follower boards and vertical dividers including some with queen excluders will handle this.

The most important reason I chose to build square Dadant depth hives is because a beekeeper far more skilled than you or I said they are the best choice.


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## marshmasterpat

Fusion - Just for clarification, could you put dimensions of these square boxes on a post. Thanks


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## ABK

Yes, I'm very intrigued by the dadant dimensions with all of the advantages listed. I do agree that it seems to be the prevalent design in Europe, despite what my "Beekeeping for Dummies" book says - Langstroth being predominant throughout the world.

I'd also be interested in seeing the official plans as per Langstroth's original publication. I believe Dr. Sharashkin said that Langstroth's design incorporated a double-walled hive with airspace for insulation that could be stuffed with straw/etc. for the winters. I'm wondering what other design aspects have been lost over time in order to commercialize and streamline the design.


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## Fusion_power

Interior dimensions of the hives I am using are exactly the dimensions Brother Adam used. This hive is available from suppliers in Europe as the "Brother Adam" hive and sometimes listed as a "12 frame Dadant". They also sell Dadant Blatt which is the Modified Dadant hive that is a rectangle instead of a square.

Length 18 5/16 (465 mm)
Width 18 5/16 (465 mm)
Height 11 5/8 (295 mm)

Langstroth interior dimensions are:
Length 18 5/16 (465 mm)
Width 14 11/16 (373 mm)
Height 9 5/8 (243 mm)

This dutch site has the design and dimensions.
http://www.imkerpedia.nl/wiki/index.php?title=Tekeningen_van_de_Buckfastkast


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## aunt betty

If you want truly maintenance free hives simply start boring 3/4" holes into your facia and soffits. (on your house and garage) 
Getting the honey out MAY be a little tricky tho.

OR you could do this. http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/cut-list-for-the-tenframe-langstroth-hive.html


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## jwcarlson

I'm trying to figure out how long of a horizonal hive I'd need to convert one of these into... 



:lpf:

I'm thinking 70 deep frames should do the trick. Just shy of 10 feet, right?


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## Fusion_power

Total height of the hive as you have it configured appears to be 65 inches high composed of 2 Langstroth deeps and 7 mediums for honey. With square equipment, you would be 51 inches high with one brood box and 7 shallow 5 11/16 supers.


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## jwcarlson

Fusion_power said:


> Total height of the hive as you have it configured appears to be 65 inches high composed of 2 Langstroth deeps and 7 mediums for honey. With square equipment, you would be 51 inches high with one brood box and 7 shallow 5 11/16 supers.


The square equipment has intrigued me for awhile. Apologize for having not read every response here. Does anyone sell the equipment commercially?


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## Fusion_power

There are no current manufacturers in the U.S. Frame parts are available from a few places or can be ordered from Canada and Europe. Getting hive bodies and supers made is not too difficult, I was able to source them in cypress from an Amish guy about 2 hours north from here. I am making my own frames. If you are seriously interested, I could set you up with a hive or two from spare equipment I had made so you could trial them and see if you want to get any deeper. Just be aware that shipping charges will add a chunk to cost.


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## Michael Bush

>...despite what my "Beekeeping for Dummies" book says - Langstroth being predominant throughout the world.

True if the world is the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand... excluding everyone else... but then the Dadant is kind of a Langstroth hive... just deeper frames and a wider box.


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## jwcarlson

Fusion_power said:


> There are no current manufacturers in the U.S. Frame parts are available from a few places or can be ordered from Canada and Europe. Getting hive bodies and supers made is not too difficult, I was able to source them in cypress from an Amish guy about 2 hours north from here. I am making my own frames. If you are seriously interested, I could set you up with a hive or two from spare equipment I had made so you could trial them and see if you want to get any deeper. Just be aware that shipping charges will add a chunk to cost.


Maybe this winter I'll throw some together. I have zero interest in cutting frame parts though. I'd rather break my leg. (not really).

If I could get them from someone like that up this way I'd be more willing to think about converting.


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## aunt betty

Something that has been tried and true since 1852 is something you should probably not mess with changing. Just an opinion and you know opinions are like _______. Bees probably don't care as long as it's the right size and has a way to expand.


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## Fusion_power

> Bees probably don't care as long as it's the right size and has a way to expand.


As I stated earlier, bees can adapt to pretty much any size or shape cavity so long as it is not too small. There are some nuances about colony buildup and hive ventilation that are affected by hive design. The rest of it is for the beekeeper and his method of managing the hive. I have to disagree about "tried and true since 1852". The only reason the Langstroth standard has not been changed is because there is a huge beekeeper investment in woodenware, knowledge of managing that woodenware, and not having a clearly better replacement. I can make a very good argument that the interior size and shape of the Rose hive comes closer to meeting all the different needs than any other hive except the Square Dadant. This still won't make it viable for subsistence agriculture in Africa.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Cristian said:


> Bernhard, please describe the whole management with this box for full seson ( production hives , nucs ).


Phew, in a nutshell:

*(1)* In February on a sunny day you shrink the broodnest down to the number of brood combs, that have bees and brood on it. Usually that is 3,5 or 7 frames. Depending on the queen and cluster size. Brood combs, follower board (insulated). Hang the combs with food only behind the follower board. Even if it has bees on it. (But no brood.) Bees will go behind the follower board and transfers the food into the broodnest. This way you create some sort of 'inhive nectar flow' plus you restrict the queen. Also bees are more crowded in the restricted broodnest, which means more warmth and combs get more brood from side to side, bottom to top. 

Hint: You can best rate the queen during wintertime after they started brooding again. Do notes on how the queen do. It is my prime selection criteria for breeding queens. They have to winter with lots of bees, stores. Half of our honey is made during the early Spring. Mark the weaker and the stronger hives.

Hint: Keep an eye on winter stores. Once all the stores are eaten up, add more combs with winter stores on it. Some do variations on this. I for example, remove all combs except the brood+bee combs. I throw on the queen excluder right away, and install a package of fondant right above the winter cluster. This way, the bees are getting used to the upward direction, rather than the sideway direction. Also checks on winter stores are easier: pop up the lid, bag empty = new bag of fondant. Done.

*(2)* Mid to end March all the hives are equalized. The weaker hives receive capped brood combs from the strong hives. The strong hives receive open brood combs from the weaker hives. This way you push the weaker hives by adding capped brood that will emerge soon and does not need to be nursed. Nursing larvae is costly. The strong hives are not weakened by donating the brood, because they get open brood as replacement. The strong hives are strong enough to nurse the open brood. 

I do a lot of requeening at that time, as Brother Adams advised. All duds get a new queen. I winter many replacement queens in Warré hives. The good queens are taken to the wintering yard, the weak queens are taken out, good queen in cage and candy plug is inserted straight away. The weak queen is taken home to the hive that donated the strong queen. Weak queens still are useful to produce some brood for further use. 

It is important to equalize the production hives, so all following manipulations are the same for all hives. You better have a raised average instead of few good ones, and many weak hives. So much easier to manage the yards if the hives are all the same.

Give more combs. In case you have a weak hive, no more combs are given. Is it strong and running low on winter stores, add a comb of winter food. Is it strong and able to build new combs, cut off the half of the last comb before the follower board. Bees will draw drone comb on the lower half of that cut comb. The strongest hives get a drone frame. Frame with starter strip. Right before the follower board. Repeat with every inspection: if all combs have eggs: add another frame+foundation between drone comb and broodnest. Repeat until 7 combs in total are reached. Do not add no more. Add one more, you get swarm fever. You find a full pollen comb: chuck it out. Reduce number of combs. 

Rule of thumb: rather than expanding the broodnest, better expand the honey supers!

*(3) *Add honey supers as the nectar flow hits. Not too early, not too late. As said I have the fondant bag in that super. Once I see nectar coming in, I throw out the fondant, and add drawn honey combs. First super has no foundation. Just drawn honey combs. (Before wintering you can let some of the honey combs be drawn in the brood chamber, behind the follower board. In summer. Remove before winter feeding.)

All the young bees want to draw fresh comb. Give enough foundation in the supers to let them do their thing. In the supers! Fresh combs really satisfies them. Much less swarming. Also Buckfast bees are known to love to store honey in fresh combs (unlike the Carnica bees). Thus the foundation at the top will draw the honey up into the supers, preventing the backflooding of the broodnest with nectar very sufficiently.

*(4)* Start your queen production very early in the season. Produce young queens! Replace 70-80 % of all your hives with young queens as soon as possible = no swarming tendency anymore. By doing this, you can skip swarm controls. 

*(5)* Before a particular flow starts, I go through all the hives. Open the lid, remove the one super that I leave on after extracting, push combs apart in the middle of the nest: take out one center comb. I find a dud, I will place a split right in the middle of that hive. Bees, brood and a young queen will solve almost all problems. Troubleshooting is the most time consuming thing in beekeeping, so I completely stopped fixing things. If there is an issue, I take a split and push it into the trouble maker. Fixed.

For this I move the combs to the left and right, leaving a gap in between for three to five combs of the split. Old queen removed. Split inserted, done. Of course you need a special yard that is designated for split production only. Always have enough splits and heaps of queens at hand. I run 60 hives for split production all the time. Hives have 12 combs. Take out three to five combs and the queen for a rescue split. Replace with foundation and a young queen from a mating nuc. Feed!

I don't do any swarm controls anymore. Just before the next flow starts one short inspection. It has brood, eggs, queen and all combs have brood: supers are given. I find a hive that somehow struggles: swarm cells, no queen, not all combs having brood, lots of pollen and so on: split inserted. Supers given. Done. You get a lot of honey of those hives that have splits inserted. Just do it right before the next flow hits.

Transporting splits.









Lots of brood, nectar, pollen and a young queen.









Hive in trouble: make a gap









Insert split.









Three combs of capped brood: 15,000 bees emerging soon. 3-6,000 adult bees already on the combs. That boosts the hive and no honey is lost. Productivity is secured.

*(6)* End of season I remove all brood from the production hives except one comb of brood. Rest is filled up with foundation. (12 combs.) Feed and treat. Old queen thus has one comb of open brood and all foragers. All failing old queens are replaced with splits. (I know it starts to get boring to have only one answer to all the problems in beekeeping. :shhhh

Brood combs are distributed to other apiaries to make new splits with young queens, making a lot of spare hives. Three combs per split. Fill with foundation, feed and treat. Alternatively, if you don't want to increase or sell splits, you can pool the brood, add queen pheromones, let it emerge, treating during hatching, make package bees, or add the treated bees back to strengthen weaker wintering hives.

*(7)* End of summer, when you break up all your mating nucs, you remove 2 brood combs and 2 honey combs from each hive, making one new hive from two hives. Add the spare queens. All hives are wintered on 8 combs then. Feed the last time of the year after that. So all bees can settle for winter. Winter strong hives only. 


To reduce the material used, I use divider boards to make 2 splits per hive/brood chamber. More or less this is the very first step into 2 queen hives. Winter two colonies in one brood chamber. In Spring you use the good queens/colonies in one brood chamber only. Run the weaker queens as 2 queen colonies. This is easy, just put two colonies divided in one brood chamber, let them settle for some weeks. Add a queen excluder and a honey super, preferably wet with honey, to start the 2 queen colony. It produces at least the same amount of honey as your strongest single queen hive. Extra queens can be pulled to start mating nucs or for starting new splits. (I start all hives, including mating nuts and splits with mated and laying queens. Once the broodnest is stabilized, queen is pulled and ripe queen cell given.)

Do run 2 queen hives with four combs per queen, no more. You add more combs, you get swarm fever. I fill the rest of the space with double frame feeders. 

Making a two queen hive from weaker colonies at Springtime.









Hive body and floor is divided by a divider board.









It makes two chambers of one brood chamber. 


















Notice the divider board extends above the top of the box. Thus the inner lid will be closed tight enough to keep the queens separately. 









There is one slat in the bottom, with a groove that holds the divider board in place. It also keeps the 2 queens away from each other, which would pass through the bottom to fight the other queen. Note that the slat extends out of the entrance. Queens do run a little outside to reach the other broodnest. 









Frame feeders, double frame size. 









One could make three compartments out of one brood box (four frames x 3 = 12 frames) – but I found it a bit fiddly to prevent the queens from running over to the other broodnest. The feeders keep them apart very well. Also you have some space to move frames a little.

Ready to receive splits. One food comb, one frame+foundation per compartment. Now insert two brood combs and a queen.











Cristian said:


> The thing that intrigued me is that they aren't building wild comb after the follower board.


They sometimes do. But that is a good thing (add on list by Fusion). Because that buffers the wild emotion the bees have at that time. You don't get burr comb, if you keep ahead adding supers with some foundation. But if you come too late, they build burr comb behind the follower board. Way better than shutting down broodnest and swarm. Burr comb next to the follower board is a sign of a strong flow. You get a bit mad on removing all the burr comb when you start keeping bees in Dadant hives, but once you get, when to add more supers, this phenomena will be reduced to almost zero. Just keep on learning. The hive buffers beekeeper's mistakes well enough.



Cristian said:


> The second thought that I've had is how are you proceeding with their food reserve for hard times when no flow is present ( just 100-200 g/day if not ZERO FLOW ). What is left for them if if you take the supers to extract honey? Just what is left in brood chamber?


Usually there is enough nectar and pollen in the brood chamber until you get to the next honey flow. I move my hives from flow to flow, as soon as possible. Also they get out all the rest of the extracted but still wet honey supers, that I give back very soon. If you want to be very sure, you can add a new super under the ready to harvest supers at the end of the flow. They partly fill this super then and can live from it for a while. 



Fusion_power said:


> suppliers in Europe as the "Brother Adam" hive and sometimes listed as a "12 frame Dadant". They also sell Dadant Blatt which is the Modified Dadant hive


Well, at least in Germany the "Dadant modified" means the Brother Adam hive. Dadant Blatt is Dadant Blatt, as far as I know. 



Michael Bush said:


> ...but then the Dadant is kind of a Langstroth hive... just deeper frames and a wider box.


Better read what Dadant himself wrote on frame spacing. 

*Dadant System of Beekeeping*
C. P. Dadant => Son of Charles Dadant
http://www.three-peaks.net/PDF/Dadant System of Beekeeping 1920.pdf

You will find interesting hints there. What you can do with a Brother Adam hive (12 frame Dadant) you can't really do with any other hive. Of course you can improvise here and there, but that never will lead to the results, the Dadant hive delivers: Least work, best results.


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## squarepeg

fascinating thread, many thanks to all for contributing.


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## cerezha

aunt betty said:


> Something that has been tried and true since 1852 ...


 Do you count varroa, commercial pollination, migratory beekeeping, pesticides, chemical treatments, forbidden export of queens in US, crop monoculture and GMOs?


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## Oldtimer

Just curious why you would blame all those on the design of a particular beehive?


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## dtrooster

Yeah it is a cool thread, different modes of thinking for sure. I'd like to give a go, the hangup is the frames which I am not building. Everything else I feel I can handle pretty easy. Fusion if you ever get to where you can sell frames/parts I'll jump for at least a couple brood boxes worth.


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## squarepeg

dar, there's a guy somewhere around decatur (i think) who build frames out of poplar wood and sells them for a reasonable price. i don't have his name but i could get it. perhaps you know of him. i wonder if he might be willing to crank out a bunch of those deep frames?


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## Fusion_power

Bernhard, I don't see a few things that are important.

1. Ventilation is critical here in the deep south. Your hive setup appears to be designed for an area with relatively cool summers. Have you considered using a deep bottom board similar to the Slatted Rack?

2. I don't see anything about mite management, would I be correct you treat in the fall? If so, how do you time it?

3. You didn't mention running them as 2 queen over winter, have you thought about trying this with 6 combs on each side? My thoughts are that it should be perfect to bring two medium size colonies through winter though this may be better in my climate than in yours.

4. Do you raise queens in the Warre hives? If so, could you give a high level description of the way you produce queens.

5. It appears you need 3 sizes of equipment to manage, Warre hives to raise queens, 3 or 4 frame nuc boxes to provide backup queens and brood, and the square deep 12 frame hives to produce honey. Are there any other pieces of woodenware you consider indispensable?

6. You mention producing queens as soon as possible, have you considered the way Brother Adam raised queens in the summer and overwintered in nucs then requeened the next spring?

7. In all he trialed and tested, Dadant still missed one very important thing about frame spacing. He was 100% correct that 1 3/8 spacing is not optimum. But he did not realize that either 1 1/2 or 1 1/4 will achieve the same goal which is to get the broodnest filled with brood. I can gain 2 or 3 weeks earlier buildup with 1 1/4 which is a decided advantage for early spring flows.

8. I would also like to verify, are the boxes you are using the dimensions I previously posted?
Length 18 5/16 (465 mm)
Width 18 5/16 (465 mm)
Height 11 5/8 (295 mm)

Thank you for posting the detailed manipulations, you saved me at least a year of experimenting to figure out how to manage these hives!


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## cerezha

Oldtimer said:


> Just curious why you would blame all those on the design of a particular beehive?


 Since I825, many things have been changed. What was good in 1852 is not necessary good in 2016. Different situation may require different solution.


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## Oldtimer

So all those things listed are the fault of one particular hive design? Wouldn't GMO crops, for example, have happened anyway? 

The world has changed since 1852 but bees and their requirements for a hive to live in are still pretty much the same. They are long term survivors and the last few years are a mere blip in the time they have been on earth.


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## cerezha

Oldtimer said:


> ... bees and their requirements for a hive to live in are still pretty much the same....


 The entire point of this thread was that bees need a "cavity" of particular volume and the rest is for beekeeper convenience - therefore there are hundreds of bee-hive designs and all of them work pretty well (according people who keep bees in THAT particular kind). For million of years, bees were living in clean environment. The entire "human era" is a blip in bees history. But this "blip" is killing species on the Earth with fantastic speed (search Google). Annual 50% loss of the bees in US is not a "blip", it is serious in my opinion. We do not need to start this discussion again. The thread is about square boxes, let's keep it this way. My original post was intended merely to point out that bee-condition has been changed after 1852...


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## Fusion_power

Bernhard, I'm going to describe how I think something works and ask that you see if I am correct.

You state to never give a single queen more than 7 combs. Are you using 5.3 mm foundation? if so, each comb has 9000 available cells. A prolific queen can lay an average of about 3000 eggs per day giving a total of 63,000 total eggs in the brood cycle where 3000 X 21 = 63,000. 7 combs would give 7 X 9000 = 63,000 cells. In other words, you are matching the queens laying ability precisely to the number of combs she can fill with eggs.

Now analyze this in terms of Walt Wright's nectar management. Walt describes breaking the honey dome to prevent swarming. With 7 frames in a SD hive, you would inherently be preventing the bees from forming a honey dome in the brood chamber. This means you are pushing honey storage into the supers where it is less likely to trigger swarming. Ideally, at the start of the flow, all of the brood frames will be filled with brood, pollen, and a little honey at the top of the frames. There is no honey dome in this configuration. If you add an 8th comb, voila, now there is more room than the queen can fill so the bees form a honey dome and initiate swarming.

This requires more analysis in the case of the 2 queen hive. You state that a max of 4 frames per side can be managed without triggering swarming. This is artificially limiting the queen's laying capacity to fewer frames than she can fill. This infers that the bees form a honey dome in the first super above the brood chamber which - combined with the much larger population of bees - is enough to trigger swarming. So try something. Put 2 young queens in a brood chamber with 6 combs each and always ensure the frames immediately above the brood chamber are only partially filled. This could be done by continually rotating 3 or 4 combs from the bottom super to an upper super and putting empty combs in the bottom. If I am correct, this would prevent formation of a honey dome and the bees should not initiate swarming.


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## Oldtimer

cerezha said:


> My original post was intended merely to point out that bee-condition has been changed after 1852...


Oh, my apologies. I thought that since you referenced 1852, the year the langstroth hive was patented, you were making veiled reference to the langstroth hive, and saying that all the problems you mentioned were caused by that.

Now I understand your explanation that you were really talking about environmental issues such as GMO, pesticides etc, and your reference to 1852 was just a crazy coincidence.


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## cerezha

Oldtimer said:


> ... talking about environmental issues such as GMO, pesticides etc...


 my point was that bee-conditon has been changed since 1852. This thread is talking about Dadan's modification of the bee-hive if I understood correctly.


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## Oldtimer

The thread is talking about hive designs.


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## RichardsonTX

Wow! I haven't visited this thread since right when it started. I'm glad I came back. There is a lot of interesting info here. Thanks to all the contributors.


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## ABK

Shouldn't all these hive designs be bigger all the way around by whatever factor cell size has supposedly increased? Since bees have magically grown since the beginning of the 1900's, should the boxes have expanded since these sizes have all been established for the "original small cell bees"?


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## Cristian

Bernhard : 

Amazing post ! Thank's for all .

To compare your season and my season timing : 

1 . When is your first flow starting and which one it is ? ( the one that makes you to ad supers ) 

2 . When is end of the summer for you ? 

3. When is end of the season ? 

4. When are being introduced for the first time the drone comb in the hive and how much time pass between inspections ( to give them more comb or foundation ) ?


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## johno

Cerezha, as far as I am concerned 50% loss of bees in the USA is pure unadulterated BS. It might be true of the minority of squeaky wheels which are garnering the most attention, But wait if I cannot sell the eighty percent or so of my increases this year I might have a 40% loss because I will have to destroy many hives because I just cannot handle any more.
Johno


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## cerezha

johno said:


> ... 50% loss of bees in the USA is pure unadulterated BS. ...


Johno
It depends how you count. If you have 100 hives going into winter in September and have 50 hives in April or March - than it is 50% loss, does not matter how many new splits you will do over the Summer. It is like, if your family lost a member and you are saying that it is "pure unadulterated BS" because you will made more children, who compensated the loss!Or if you loss 50% of crop - you can not tell that it's "pure unadulterated BS" because next year you will produce more crop and therefore compensate loses...


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## johno

Cerezha, perhaps you can help me count my losses, 50 hives into winter, 48 hives surviving 50% loss I don't think so. then during the summer so far as swarm control around 45 nuc's created and I may have to split some of my booming hives later. Now comes the problem, I can really only handle 50 hives so I have to move the excess in some way or another otherwise I must let them die and thereby I could get to this amazing figure of a 40% loss. I keep my bees in Virginia which has a very low amount of honey production per colony so my biggest danger to the colonies are varoa and starvation. So what are we talking about beekeepers or beehavers.
Johno


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## Richard Cryberg

cerezha said:


> Johno
> It depends how you count. If you have 100 hives going into winter in September and have 50 hives in April or March - than it is 50% loss, does not matter how many new splits you will do over the Summer. It is like, if your family lost a member and you are saying that it is "pure unadulterated BS" because you will made more children, who compensated the loss!Or if you loss 50% of crop - you can not tell that it's "pure unadulterated BS" because next year you will produce more crop and therefore compensate loses...


Anyone who goes into Sept with 100 hives and only has 50 in March or April is simply incompetent and should get out of bee keeping unless that was his intent. There are commercial models where such reductions in live hives during that time period are economically advantageous and desired as anyone with an ounce of business sense would know, but I think you are talking about hive deaths, not planned elimination of live hives. My losses in winter the last two years were 8%. My summer hive deaths are zero for the last five years. I did nothing special at all beyond standard good bee keeping practices. I consider such losses quite reasonable and well within the expected range anyone who has any skill as a bee keeper. However, I also realize there is no cure for piss poor bee keeping, so some will see much higher death rates due to their own incompetence.


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## Fusion_power

> Anyone who goes into Sept with 100 hives and only has 50 in March or April is simply incompetent and should get out of bee keeping


I have a great deal of difficulty with "absolute" statements. Adee lost 30,000 colonies this past year. I know of two other commercial beekeepers with 70% plus loss. It is NOT always the beekeepers's fault.


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## Oldtimer

Hmm... You know who's fault it was how? 


But regardless of wether or not these losses were the fault of the large commercials running the hives, it is still a stretch to blame everything from GMO's to monoculture crops on the design of the langstroth hive.

Really the langstroth was just the precursor to the design of the many moveable comb hives that came after. Other hives are just variations, even a top bar hive has more design in common with a langstroth hive than with a skep.


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## Richard Cryberg

Fusion_power said:


> I have a great deal of difficulty with "absolute" statements. Adee lost 30,000 colonies this past year. I know of two other commercial beekeepers with 70% plus loss. It is NOT always the beekeepers's fault.


As far back as we have records a disease epidemic has swept the country every 25 or so years resulting in losses of about half the hives give or take. These epidemics generally hit in summer or fall. The diseases have gone by various names but disappearing disease was used several times. The last time it happened was 2006 and 2007 when we invented a new name CCD. CCD also resulted in summer hive deaths. Such epidemics seem to burn themselves out fairly fast. I am also well aware that some commercial guys got sprayed on almonds both last year and this year resulting in very weak hives coming off almonds that struggled to recover and some did not make it. Again a summer issue. I am sure the blueberry pollinators came off berries with sick hives this year again as usual and needed to treat for EFB. Again a summer issue.

That much talked about general 50% loss reported in surveys is not a summer loss. It is mainly a winter loss. I repeat, high winter losses are the result of PPB. They have nothing to do with hive design or pesticides or stress from being on a monoculture too long, they have to do with incompetent bee keeping.


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## dtrooster

It's called culling out the weak Richard. Anytime you get massive increases in in a like gene pool a crash or genetic defects that make that line unsustainable is bound to happen. I don't know squat about bees but it's happened in dog,horse,bird breeding just to name a few. Humans are natures worst enemies, very few species don't have ebbs and flows to populations due to new disease or new natural threats. Perfectly normal but when man and money get involved that's a whole new kettle of fish. Worlds great destroyers is our claim to fame


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## Oldtimer

I agree with the general principle, that a healthy population of anything is maintained by ongoing culling of the weak, the principle is correct.

However this is a different matter from an animal, in this case bees, being expected to survive conditions that are unliveable, and some beekepers do that totally unknowingly and at the end do not understand why the bees died.

Thing is, losses in a beekeeping operation are not needed as a way to cull the weak because culling the weak can be done by selecting who to breed from and who not to breed from. No losses are needed as long as correct breeding decisions are made. Allowing 50 or 70 percent losses then shrugging ones shoulders and saying it's OK cos it's culling the weak, is just an excuse for lousy beekeeping.

As to us killing, and creating species, an interesting aside, I just read in the paper today that there are quite a few new species that have been created by the recent interference of man. An example was given of a mosquito that has adapted to life in Londons underground rail system, and is now no longer able to interbreed with the top dwelling mosquitos.


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## dtrooster

Maybe so maybe not. What would you guess hive losses are in the wild population in any given year? I'd be willing to bet nowhere near 50 percent, but I could be wrong since we propagate chemical dependency wholesale. You missed the point. The need for people to make money causes artificially propping up or derailing natural selection and natural biology. Can only last so long before the house of cards comes crashing down. Bees have been around for how long, but now it matters that hives die out. Why is that, because there's profit in the deal. Enough with the common sense, I'll let the big boys talk it out


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## clyderoad

Richard Cryberg said:


> I repeat, high winter losses are the result of PPB. They have nothing to do with hive design or pesticides or stress from being on a monoculture too long, they have to do with incompetent bee keeping.


A loaded comment like this requires further explanation.


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## RichardsonTX

dtrooster said:


> Maybe so maybe not. What would you guess hive losses are in the wild population in any given year? I'd be willing to bet nowhere near 50 percent, but I could be wrong since we propagate chemical dependency wholesale. You missed the point. The need for people to make money causes artificially propping up or derailing natural selection and natural biology. Can only last so long before the house of cards comes crashing down. Bees have been around for how long, but now it matters that hives die out. Why is that, because there's profit in the deal. Enough with the common sense, I'll let the big boys talk it out


I think you brought up a good point. I wonder if there are any studies that show the average life of a wild colony, that life being it's total time in existence regardless of it's re-queening, and what the average number is for swarms from wild colonies that are successful in establishing new colonies. If anyone knows of a study like that please pass on the info to get to the article and read it. 

I'm not saying that studying wild colonies would in any way demonstrate what is an economically sustainable level of losses in a commercial operation. That's a whole different ball game with revenue/expenses, supply/demand coming into play. I think the colony loss data collected by the USDA should be grouped by identification of what type of beekeeping operation it came from. I would think that losses from commercial beekeepers who use their colonies more weeks out of the year for pollination purposes would be a lot higher than losses from beekeepers who only use their colonies for pollination in the almonds for a few weeks of the year. I would also think that losses for new beekeepers would be a lot higher than for individuals who've been keeping bees for a longer time period. New beekeepers are probably more interested in how their losses compare to similar beekeepers, pollinators to pollinators, wild colonies to wild colonies, VSH colonies to VSH colonies, chemically treated to chemically treated, all for different analysis purposes. 

http://www.usda.gov/nass/PUBS/TODAYRPT/hcny0516.pdf


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## deknow

http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/naldc/download.xhtml?id=27253&content=PDF

This is an excellent read if I recall.


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## squarepeg

i think dar's plan is sound and i'm predicting he will achieve the gains in swarm prevention and honey yield that he is anticipating with his transition to the square dadants.

being his usual generous self, dar has offered to help me set up a couple of those new hives over this way, and i have to admit i am tempted to try them.

but as things are all of my hive slots are full, i'm just now getting to a full compliment of drawn comb for my honey supers, and i'm maxed out on how much apiary i can properly take care of with the time i have available so...

i'm thinking next year is going to offer us an opportunity to contrast and compare the square dadants to traditional langs insofar as dar and i are working with similar stock, we are located close enough to each other such that our weather and flows are pretty much the same, and our management methods are virtually identical.


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## kilocharlie

dtrooster said:


> Bernhardt bringing game to the discussion, sweet. I'd be interested in a thread devoted just to square brood boxes and or variants of it. Is there one I'm not seeing? I'm new so have no biases or opinions as of yet, an open book so to speak


Yes, there is also the WBC hive, designed by William Broughton Carr. The original was 19-7/8" square. It has inside bee boxes, and outside "lifts" - tapered boxes that stack easily. The entrance is a tunnel that prevents bees from getting in between the two sets of boxes and waxing them together. 

Inspecting them is labor intensive, but they are very attractive - for years the favorite in Great Britain. A very good choice for a Northern climate, as it is very well insulated. Not meant for large-scale production, but perhaps the most beautiful of all hive designs.


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## kilocharlie

Bernard - Thank you for posts #17 and #41 !!! 

I have been following FP's efforts at making up the giant Dadant hives closely. I will probably make up a good number of them. I may even get a 5.2 cell foundation mill for making the foundation for the brood nest. 

I was going to make an adapter board and use 8-frame mediums for honey (I call them "40 pounders"), but you've convinced me to try it your way first. 

Charles and Camille Pierre Dadant were entirely convinced that this was the best honey production hive. Their contract landowners, who were paid a percent of the honey, were adamant about getting the BIG hives. They would get very upset to see even a few of the standard Langstroths. They knew which ones had all the bees and activity.

So wonderful to get such great advice from you, who has been using these hives, apparently for some time. Thank you!


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## dtrooster

Bernhardt suggests no more than 7 frames be used to prevent swarming. If that's the case with the extra deep frames would not 9 maybe 10 regular deeps in a square box not accomplish the same thing. You still have space opposite the follower board for clustering and the highway straight to the supers. I must be missing something


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## Fusion_power

This book by Frank Pellett covers much of the hive controversy from the late 1800's. It is worth reading chapter IV for context. Of note, Pellett adopted the Modified Dadant hive for honey production.

http://chestofbooks.com/animals/bees/History/index.html


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## H Mitchell

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Notice the divider board extends above the top of the box. Thus the inner lid will be closed tight enough to keep the queens separately.


Bernhard, please tell us about the little golden cones being used to space the frames. Also, what is your frame spacing center-to-center?

Thanks, Harvey


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## Fusion_power

Not Bernhard, but they are called frame spacers or "distance retainers". http://www.biredskapsfabriken.se/en/lista.php?kid=9-53

Brother Adam wrote about using a screw eye of the appropriate diameter and also of a type hobnail that maintained spacing. These distance retainers are an adaptation to meet the need of spacers. The amount of propolis when these are used on a frame is significantly less that when self-spacing type frames are used. The advantage of self-spacing frames is when the hive is moved there is less chance frames swinging during transport.


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## H Mitchell

Fusion_power said:


> Not Bernhard, but they are called frame spacers or "distance retainers". http://www.biredskapsfabriken.se/en/lista.php?kid=9-53
> 
> Brother Adam wrote about using a screw eye of the appropriate diameter and also of a type hobnail that maintained spacing. These distance retainers are an adaptation to meet the need of spacers. The amount of propolis when these are used on a frame is significantly less that when self-spacing type frames are used. The advantage of self-spacing frames is when the hive is moved there is less chance frames swinging during transport.


Thanks, I'm building a square Dadant and will have to make the deep frames. Are you using 1 1/2" center-to-center frames like the C. Dadant's original hives? 

Thanks again, Harvey


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## Fusion_power

I'm using 1.25 spacing for the frames, however, 1.5 is the standard in Europe and is the standard Dadant recommended. I've used 1.25 frames for 40 years and am familiar with their strengths and weaknesses which is why I chose to use them. My frames are self-spacing which results in more propolis than with the pin designs such as Bernhard uses. I suggest using 1.5 spacing until and unless you become familiar with the requirements of the narrower frames.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Fusion_power said:


> 1. Ventilation
> ...considered using a deep bottom board...?


In fact most of my hives have deep bottom boards (without the slatted rack => not necessary). I need those deep bottoms to migrate the bees on long distances. I use the flat boards for my nucs and short distances. Since I can buy them and not need to build them myself. The divider board+slat are not available here for deep floors. 



Fusion_power said:


> 2. I don't see anything about mite management, would I be correct you treat in the fall? If so, how do you time it?


After the last honey harvest I do OAV. 3 days apart for seven times in a row. One last time in November before temperatures drop.



Fusion_power said:


> 3. You didn't mention running them as 2 queen over winter, have you thought about trying this with 6 combs on each side?


I winter 300 double queen hives and they winter just fine. Our climate where I live allows for that. 



Fusion_power said:


> 4. Do you raise queens in the Warré hives? If so, could you give a high level description of the way you produce queens.


Queens are the heart of the hive and queen production is the very heart of the beekeeping operation. Most of my daily work is dedicated on raising high quality queens. If I have more time in winter, I will elaborate it. Yes, I use Warré hives as queen mating nucs. Most of my queen breeding methods come from Brother Adam. 



Fusion_power said:


> 5. It appears you need 3 sizes of equipment to manage, Warre hives to raise queens, 3 or 4 frame nuc boxes to provide backup queens and brood, and the square deep 12 frame hives to produce honey. Are there any other pieces of woodenware you consider indispensable?


No. I raise queens in Warré hives, but instead of using nuc boxes, I use full size boxes with dividing boards. This way I am more flexible in activating nucs as production hives when needed. Of course this has disadvantages, but that's the way I do it now. 

Jos Guth from Luxembourg has a very nice split production system, completely build upon nuc boxes, very similar to Mike Palmer's system. I am about to adopt it, but I am a bit shy on the costs of additional nuc boxes at the moment. See Jos Guth system here (in German language, but you might get it from the pictures):
http://www.buckfastnrw.de/wp-conten...ag-Professionelle-Ablegerbildung-Jos-Guth.pdf

He makes 10 splits of one overwintered nuc. He constantly feeds, though and you need different apiaries, one for the mating, one for splitting and one/more for wintering the splits.



Fusion_power said:


> 6. You mention producing queens as soon as possible, have you considered the way Brother Adam raised queens in the summer and overwintered in nucs then requeened the next spring?


That's what I do. Still I start very early, using the spare queens to start the Apideas and to produce brood for raising queens.



Fusion_power said:


> 8. I would also like to verify, are the boxes you are using the dimensions I previously posted?
> Length 18 5/16 (465 mm)
> Width 18 5/16 (465 mm)
> Height 11 5/8 (295 mm)


Outside dimensions are: 20 (20.0394 ) inch by 20 inch. Height is 12 inches. (12.0079). Thickness of wood is 22 mm/0.86 inch which was recommended by Brother Adam. (L 509 mm x W 509 mm x H 305 mm, outside dimensions). So, yes, that should be the inside dimensions. 



Fusion_power said:


> In other words, you are matching the queens laying ability precisely to the number of combs she can fill with eggs.


Yes. And because every queen is different, you need the follower board to adapt. Just see if she can keep up filling all the combs with brood. If she doesn't, you remove one comb at a time until she does.



Fusion_power said:


> If I am correct, this would prevent formation of a honey dome and the bees should not initiate swarming.


The honey dome is not the cause but rather one of many hints, that the broodnest is too large for the queen. There is pollen long before the honey dome builds up. 





Cristian said:


> To compare your season and my season timing :
> 1 . When is your first flow starting and which one it is ? ( the one that makes you to ad supers )
> 2 . When is end of the summer for you ?
> 3. When is end of the season ?
> 4. When are being introduced for the first time the drone comb in the hive and how much time pass between inspections ( to give them more comb or foundation ) ?


1. Usually around 15th of April. This is the canola flow, with cherries and other fruits too. Usually about one third to a half of our yearly crop comes from the Spring flow. 

2. Summer ends in October for us. Usually it is warm for a long time. (15-20°C all September long.) It is not really "summer" in September but it is warm and bees fly nonstop. 

3. 15th of July. No more honey beyond that can be expected except some special flows (heather, sunflowers, fir).

4. With the first inspection of the year. I do give drone comb only to strong hives. All the other hives I cut the half off the last comb before the follower board. Drone raising costs a lot of energy and I want to save the energy in medium and smaller hives. 



dtrooster said:


> would not 9 maybe 10 regular deeps in a square box not accomplish the same thing.


Yes, with some improvisations you can imitate the square Dadant hive. More or less successful depending on similarity.



H Mitchell said:


> Bernhard, please tell us about the little golden cones being used to space the frames. Also, what is your frame spacing center-to-center?


As Fusion said, those are spacers. We can buy them here in beekeeping supply shops. Originally they came from the furniture industry and were used for upholstery. You can see them on leather chairs for example. Spacing center to center is 35 mm/1.38 inch.


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## odfrank

My Brother Adam brood chambers consistently produce more honey with less swarming than the different Langstroth configurations that I use. These are 200 - 300 lb. crops on a few. Charlie B was calling them "machinations" a few days ago. Since he owes me a few hours of labor, I told him that he should come heft the honey full supers off the hives for me. That top box has ten 11 1/4" frames drawn from foundation in it and should weigh about 80 lbs. Maybe after he gets it down, he will shut up about my large hives. These are locally caught baithive bees. Equipment dates from 1979 after I visited Brother Adam. Constant renovations and renewal keep it in service.


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## RichardsonTX

deknow said:


> http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/naldc/download.xhtml?id=27253&content=PDF
> 
> This is an excellent read if I recall.


That was an interesting read. Thanks for sharing the article.


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## kilocharlie

Fusion - Thank you for the link to the Frank C. Pellet book. That was an excellent read as well.


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## texanbelchers

Odfrank, do you use similar management as Bernhard, specifically the limited brood nest? It is contrary to the majority of current discussions/wisdom regarding unlimited nests. Do you manage all of your hives the same?


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## BernhardHeuvel

Made a video on how to inspect square Dadant hives (12 frames, Brother Adam hive, whatever you name it). 





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6RNUfWMbIQ

Can't get much easier than this. I did it single handed in that video, holding the mobile with the other hand to film it. Slide combs to make room in the center, pull center comb, inspect it. Have a look down the other facing combs. To make sure pull the outer comb, that faces the follower board. That's it. If you find swarm cells or too much nectar and pollen on the combs, juggle through all 7 combs. Which is done quickly, too. 

Compare this with all the breaking loose of propolized = immobilized combs (Hoffmann frames) and pulling of multiple combs, not seeing all of the swarm cells anyway. Unstacking and stacking brood boxes. Oh, I have done it all by myself and know what I am talking about. If you compare it side by side, the choice is pretty easy. Once you worked those Dadant hives in real life, you certainly will bite. Especially if you see the magic it does, when it comes to honey and little (I don't say no) swarming. Note that this hive best works with the Buckfast bee, which perfectly fits into that system. You put the best bee into the best hive and end up with best results. :thumbsup:


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## COAL REAPER

thanks for taking the time bernhard. what is your climate like there?


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## BernhardHeuvel

Being relatively close to the coast we have a more maritime but temperate climate. I am living a sheltered location, which is why we usually have here much warmer weather than in the rest of Germany. Plant hardiness zone is 7. (7b) Climate should be similar as in Philadelphia.

Don't think climate matters much other than insulating the hive more in winter and needing more winter stores.


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## ABK

I want to take the opportunity to ask a question here, since this thread seems to be followed by a good amount of beekeepers who use hives other than Langstroth as well.

Since it seems like every hive design other than Langstroth utilizes frames that are "deeper" than the "deep" Langstroth dimension, I was wondering how practical or impractical would it be for me to install a spacer, like a shallow or medium box ABOVE the bottom board and below the first brood box. I'd like to try doing this in order to let the bees build comb right off the bottom bars of my frames to extend the brood combs. I'd like to have some of the benefits of the larger combs these other hive designs have without having to change out all of my equipment. Otherwise, what other methods are there to extend my existing frames without taking anything away or messing with the bees too much? 

Will they be able to just continue the combs off the frames or will they immediately connect all those combs into one solid mess?

I have just 2 hives at the moment. The average lows and highs in my area in the winter are about 13-30 Farenheit. So I am thinking having a larger uninterrupted comb might be helpful.


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## Fusion_power

If you can get them to draw straight comb, which will be difficult, the bees will draw off the bottom bars and fill the area with comb. Work out a method of attaching foundation strips to the bottom of a few frames and the bees will do the rest. Much of the comb built will be drone size which means a hive full of drones each spring.


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## COAL REAPER

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Being relatively close to the coast we have a more maritime but temperate climate. I am living a sheltered location, which is why we usually have here much warmer weather than in the rest of Germany. Plant hardiness zone is 7. (7b) Climate should be similar as in Philadelphia.
> 
> Don't think climate matters much other than insulating the hive more in winter and needing more winter stores.


thanks. i bet my winters are 20* colder than philly. a lot more snow for sure. have you any summer dearth? 

do you pay any mind to which direction (N, S, E, W) the void faces?


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## ABK

Will it be drone size regardless of the strain of bees I have, or anything else? I mean is that a fact? Why would the drone cells be bad anyway? Wouldn't they eventually fill whatever the cells they build with honey in the fall? I'm asking because I don't know.

All I know is that when bees settle into someone's house or a tree in the woods they are unrestricted in what they can build and they seem to know exactly what they need to do to survive the winters, which they do. I'm just afraid if I do too much to "guide" my bees, it'll hurt them eventually.


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## dtrooster

Maybe you could cut a foundation groove in the bottom of the bottom bar and cut a strip of plastic the width you need. Notch the ends of the plastic and shoot a staple in on a 45 to hold the plastic up. That's how I use a strip of plastic in a regular frame for a starter strip


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## dtrooster

That's awesome brood frames Bernhard. A wintertime project will be to build a couple of those boxes. Maybe the right sized frames also if I feel sporty, those spacer buttons are cool. Would make frame construction a little less complicated it seems


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## H Mitchell

To those of you who have built dadant deep hives, since 11 5/8" width, 3/4" thick lumber is not readily available, what material and/or construction methods are you using to get the material to 11 5/8" width? I don't think plywood is satisfactory.


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## dtrooster

I'm gonna use 6by and 8by lumber for 2 separate bodies and splice together with a lifting cleat.


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## ABK

dtrooster said:


> Maybe you could cut a foundation groove in the bottom of the bottom bar and cut a strip of plastic the width you need. Notch the ends of the plastic and shoot a staple in on a 45 to hold the plastic up. That's how I use a strip of plastic in a regular frame for a starter strip


That's a great idea. Wax foundation would be even easier to manipulate, albeit less strong. But my problem is that I'd have to be somehow sawing or otherwise notching the bottom bars of the frames somehow - that are full of bees and brood. That's why I'm looking for a less invasive method. 

Perhaps a strip of wax foundation that is held on by a mini frame that can be easily stapled to the ends of the bottom bars of my existing frames, so that the most disturbance the bees would have is 2 staples driven into the ends of the bottom frame bars. There would be a gap - the bottom bar and the top mini bar of these additional foundation strips that the bees would have to overcome, but if they can continue their existing comb into this new stuff, then I'd have a way to build a solid and seamless addition.

Sound crazy?


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## Fusion_power

Contact a sawmill for mill run lumber wider than 12 inches. Have it planed to 3/4 thickness. Cut to your hearts content.

I found a sawmill that would run green cypress for $1.40 per foot. I would have to stack and dry and run it through a planer. That is why I was willing to pay $12.50 per cypress square deep cut and ready to assemble from an Amish guy 90 miles north. I had him make a total of 45 square deeps anticipating flaws in some of the wood.


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## jwcarlson

I want to try the square Dadant hives pretty bad. Wish there was a place I could buy the boxes and frames. And foundation. I suppose I could cut down plastic foundation and make it work. I love the idea of those big, deep brood combs. It really comes down to box availability, though. There's no way I've got the time to custom make a bunch of equipment. 



Fusion_power said:


> Contact a sawmill for mill run lumber wider than 12 inches. Have it planed to 3/4 thickness. Cut to your hearts content.
> 
> I found a sawmill that would run green cypress for $1.40 per foot. I would have to stack and dry and run it through a planer. That is why I was willing to pay $12.50 per cypress square deep cut and ready to assemble from an Amish guy 90 miles north. I had him make a total of 45 square deeps anticipating flaws in some of the wood.


How do the Amish power their saws? :s


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## dtrooster

You'd have to go my route on new frames, no doubt. I put the foundation strip on the top bar before I assemble the frames. Not sure how you'd get wax to stay


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## dtrooster

belt driven by a horse treadmill :shhhh:


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## ABK

Do they build all worker comb down past the starter strip? Or do they have a free for all as soon as they have no foundation to work from again? 

After my bear attack, my screened bottom board got the screen torn out, so involuntarily, my box is now about 2 inches deeper. I guess the experiment is started. I'll see what they decide to build.


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## Fusion_power

This guy has a diesel engine that powers a drive shaft under the floor of his workshop. He has about a dozen saws and planers connected to the drive shaft via belts. It is a low tech operation that could be replaced with a water wheel or just about any other power source.


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## dtrooster

So far I haven't had a drone cell one. Only one hive with plenty of room and past our swarm season so I don't really know


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## H Mitchell

dtrooster said:


> I'm gonna use 6by and 8by lumber for 2 separate bodies and splice together with a lifting cleat.


That'll work! Good idea!


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## odfrank

texanbelchers said:


> Odfrank, do you use similar management as Bernhard, specifically the limited brood nest? It is contrary to the majority of current discussions/wisdom regarding unlimited nests. Do you manage all of your hives the same?



No.


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## Oldtimer

LOL, man of few words.


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## Fusion_power

Y!


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## Oldtimer




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## kilocharlie

ABK & dtrooster - You won't necessarily get the same results with an extended 9-1/8" frame as you would with an 11-1/4" frame. It is the continuous worker-sized cells that cause the huge brood nest for the incredible build ups. A wooden bar will probably reduce the effectiveness somewhat.

Charles and Camille Pierre Dadant, and Frank Pellet and others who have used these modified Dadants or the older Jumbo Dadant hives side-by-side with standard or other smaller hives knew that the honey production and brood build up was far better on the larger frame.

Bernard has shown us that there is an advantage to placing the honey frames in the upper box 90 degrees to the brood frames in the lower box, and flipping them "endo" at the right time so they fill up and age evenly. So square boxes make sense.

A 2" tall rim for the standard Langstroth 9-5/8" deep box to sit upon would work, especially if you had a way to fasten them, but I'd get the actual 11-1/4" frames to put in it.

As it is, I'm using 2X lumber and joining it (two grooves and a floating tongue) in order to have lumber wide enough to make deep modified Dadants before I cut the boxes. I'm not planing it down to 3/4", but leaving it at 1-1/2" thick. My boxes should be finished at 20-5/8" square on the outside dimensions, by 11-5/8" deep. it is still 18-3/8" square on the inside dimensions. 

When making boxes of joined lumber, I try to make sure that the joint lines are not all in line with each other, but end on different finger joints. By keeping the joint lines in the lower half of the box below the handles, the whole box is strong enough for lifting.


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## dtrooster

kilocharlie said:


> ABK & dtrooster - You won't necessarily get the same results with an extended 9-1/8" frame as you would with an 11-1/4" frame. It is the continuous worker-sized cells that cause the huge brood nest for the incredible build ups. A wooden bar will probably reduce the effectiveness somewhat.
> 
> Charles and Camille Pierre Dadant, and Frank Pellet and others who have used these modified Dadants or the older Jumbo Dadant hives side-by-side with standard or other smaller hives knew that the honey production and brood build up was far better on the larger frame.
> 
> Bernard has shown us that there is an advantage to placing the honey frames in the upper box 90 degrees to the brood frames in the lower box, and flipping them "endo" at the right time so they fill up and age evenly. So square boxes make sense..


I'm glad you brought this up. Bernhard's method is pretty intriguing for me as I have yet to form opinions on how things should be done. The versatility of being able to manipulate honey supers/frames in an unlimited way necessitating the square brood box makes perfect sense to me. My question is since he's using only 7 or less of the extra deep frames and squeezing down the broodnest to match the actual brood production would not 8-9 regular deep frames accomplish the same thing if the method is the same? 

The flip side is if the bottom box is used in the traditional manner of letting the bees do what they do the extra depth of the 14 frames combined amounts to what. 3 extra deep frames of room just in the bottom box which is almost equal a double deep. Now that extra 2"s a frame seems more meaningful.


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## Fusion_power

14 frames at 11 1/4 deep is equal to 18 Langstroth 9 1/8 frames.

Your other question was whether 8 or 9 frames would be enough. In spring and summer it would, but for wintering, additional stores will be needed depending on where you are located. That is why I am making 14 frames for each box. This should be enough stores for a wintering colony anywhere in the southern tier of states. It might not be enough in the northern tier or in Canada.

Please keep in mind that the hives in Europe contain only 12 frames. I am using 14 because I've managed colonies with 31.5 mm frame spacing for 40 years. They can be spaced further apart if I decide to only use 12 per box.

Queen excluders can be purchased from suppliers in Europe or you can make your own by cutting a Langstroth 10 frame wire excluder in half and making a wood splice in the middle of the excluder. We used to be able to purchase wood and wire excluders but they are more time consuming to make so disappeared from the catalogs. Bees will move through them faster than through straight wire excluders.


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## dtrooster

> Your other question was whether 8 or 9 frames would be enough. In spring and summer it would, but for wintering, additional stores will be needed depending on where you are located. That is why I am making 14 frames for each box. This should be enough stores for a wintering colony anywhere in the southern tier of states. It might not be enough in the northern tier or in Canada


. I think we got crossed up. I get that if trying to winter in one box the extra deep frames in the square box makes that closer to being possible. The 8-9 reg deep reference was to Bernhards method of no excess honey in the brood chamber. He's obviously removing the excluder and leaving on at least a super of honey for winter shutdown. Unless I'm way off base, easily could be the case. Anyway in that scenario, of a restricted brood nest, why not just more regular deeps frames to accomplished the same endgame with less cost and hassle?


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## BernhardHeuvel

After the last harvest of the season, I remove all supers. I also remove all brood combs except one open brood comb. I then give 11 frames with foundation, making it 12 frames in total, feed until all frames are well populated and stores completed. Just before winter, I take out four combs off each hive, making one new hive of two. Feed a little after that. That way stores are completed and pollen stores are preserved by a thin layer of syrup. This way I winter more hives and process my queens that were the last in my mating nucs. 

Those brood combs that are removed after the harvest are either pooled and treated, making shook swarms after all bees emerged, or used to make more splits and new hives. Swarms/packages are either used to make new hives, or to strengthen the production hives on fresh comb. For me it is important to get the production hives free of varroa quickly after the harvest. Removing the brood making a brood break helps a lot. Also fresh combs for winter significantly reduces the viruses and brood diseases in wintered hives. 

Bottom line is, I winter on 8 combs only, without problems. I know some people doing this up in the Alps, too, with good success. They have extended winters there. In the far North of Europe, they winter on 12 frames packed with food. I reckon 12 frames for winter is good enough in long winters. 

To make sure one could put a plastic foil on top with a hole in it, on top of that some fondant. All in an empty super. Well insulated. If the fondant is empty, replace it with a fresh warmed one. I wintered a many hives that way just fine, even on completely empty combs in the brood box. (Emergency feeding.)


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## dtrooster

I just got shot down in flames Bernhard, lol. Let me digest on that awhile, maybe more than I'm willing to go thru. I hope to keep this of a hobiest nature, fairly successful but limited somewhat in necessary necessities. Haha. Plus some of that is over my head right now, just a touch


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## BernhardHeuvel

Even in an unlimited broodnest (in a Dadant) they use 8 combs maximum for brood before winter, filling up the other combs with winter stores. One comb, full of honey or winter food, holds 4 kg/8.8 lbs of honey. That means 4 combs (out of total 12 combs) = 16 kg/35 lbs of winter stores, only in the side combs. Plus the honey dome above the broodnest, that builds up before winter. I think, the honey dome on eight combs holds another 16 kg/35 lbs of winter stores. Which is enough, more than enough were I live. 

You probably know how the total consumption is in your location during wintertime. Add combs accordingly.


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## dtrooster

So in theory after the main spring flow pull the honey supers, add frames to let them expand laterally and arranged the main brood box how they'd like for the winter. Adding supers again if the fall flow supports it. Wouldn't that accomplish basically the same thing? I'd rather not get into a bunch of feeding and excessive frame manipulation. No, I don't know what it takes to winter here yet


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## ABK

kilocharlie said:


> ABK & dtrooster - You won't necessarily get the same results with an extended 9-1/8" frame as you would with an 11-1/4" frame. It is the continuous worker-sized cells that cause the huge brood nest for the incredible build ups. A wooden bar will probably reduce the effectiveness somewhat.
> 
> Charles and Camille Pierre Dadant, and Frank Pellet and others who have used these modified Dadants or the older Jumbo Dadant hives side-by-side with standard or other smaller hives knew that the honey production and brood build up was far better on the larger frame.
> 
> Bernard has shown us that there is an advantage to placing the honey frames in the upper box 90 degrees to the brood frames in the lower box, and flipping them "endo" at the right time so they fill up and age evenly. So square boxes make sense.
> 
> A 2" tall rim for the standard Langstroth 9-5/8" deep box to sit upon would work, especially if you had a way to fasten them, but I'd get the actual 11-1/4" frames to put in it.
> 
> As it is, I'm using 2X lumber and joining it (two grooves and a floating tongue) in order to have lumber wide enough to make deep modified Dadants before I cut the boxes. I'm not planing it down to 3/4", but leaving it at 1-1/2" thick. My boxes should be finished at 20-5/8" square on the outside dimensions, by 11-5/8" deep. it is still 18-3/8" square on the inside dimensions.
> 
> When making boxes of joined lumber, I try to make sure that the joint lines are not all in line with each other, but end on different finger joints. By keeping the joint lines in the lower half of the box below the handles, the whole box is strong enough for lifting.











Here's a pic of one frame they've continued building down. I'm not seeing that transition area that you and I had anticipated. Comb looks to be one solid piece from inside the frame and out, at least on the outside.


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## dtrooster

Looks like they are transitioning to drones in the center and keeping worker on the outside. Interesting to see how it shakes out. I've been tempted open a slot in the double medium boxes and drop a deep frame in to see what happens


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## odfrank

I make mine deeper than 11 5/8", even 12" deep. The thin bottom bars on 11 1/4" frames often sag touching the bottom if the box is not deep enough. Plus the boxes shrink.


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## kilocharlie

Thanks for that, Oliver. Fortunately, I make them oversize and cut down the assembled boxes. You may have just saved me a bunch of work!

Not much can be done about drone cells except providing worker foundation in the first place, or providing drone / foundationless frames, and perhaps breeding selection. They decide when & where to build them.

I like Lauri's arrangement / mite control method. 1/2 sheet of foundation in the middle, let them draw out drone / honey sized cells on the sides. Remove the first batch of drones with a knife and feed it to the chickens. No mites. The bees draw it out again, but they fill it with honey - right where they need it for winter.

Fusion has made me into a 5.1 mm foundation convert. Populations up 2 weeks earlier in the year makes a LOT OF SENSE (and dollars...) down here in "ammond" pollination country.


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## Fusion_power

Charlie, it is not just the foundation size, it is also that I use 31.5 mm end bars effectively spacing the frames much closer than 35 mm typical of most Hoffman frames. The combination of smaller cells plus combs closer together allows a spring cluster to cover more brood and therefore build up significantly earlier. I've used narrow frames since 1977. I've used 4.9 foundation since 2005.


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## kilocharlie

Yes, Darrell, and I am really impressed. Do you think 5.1 mm will give similar result, or do I need 4.9mm?

Also, exactly how wide are your frame side bars? Is that 31.5mm (= 1-1/4") the actual width of the bar, or the center-to-center spacing?


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## Fusion_power

I think the results with 5.1 will be better than with 4.9. I've had issues with bees drawing 4.9 properly since I converted. Dadant is going to make a run of 5.1 this fall so if you want some, decide how much. 25 pounds gets you 128 sheets. They supposedly have some 5.4 in stock and they have quite a bit of duragilt in stock. I won't use duragilt after trying it 20 odd years ago.

If you want a sample of a frame the way I am making them, I'll send you one for cost of shipping. Then you can decide if you want to go to the trouble of making them. The end bars are 31.5 mm which is almost exactly 1.25 inches. This is the same as saying the combs wind up at 1.25 spacing.


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## kilocharlie

Thank you, Dar. I'll build my own, so 31.5 mm width is it, and a follower board, and square mediums for the honey boxes. I'll order the 5.1 mm, and probably try Lauri's foundation arrangement, so ordinary Langstroth sheets will do - turned vertical and attached in the middle. I'll have to wire them all up, and probably build an embedder.

I'll probably do a bunch of rain dances for next year, too. 

If I can get the 3-D printer drawing out the 5.1 mm combs on the foundation, I should have a seriously hopped-up system in a few years, after the learning curve settles in.

128 sheets sounds about like 18 colonies in 9 boxes, if I use Bernard's limit of 7 frames...I better make up 18 boxes, though, and 256 frames.

3-D printer, wire embedder, 18 square hives, 128 narrow Dadant brood frames, fondant inner covers, feeder tops, SBB pallets for square hives, 18 square honey supers, 180 foundationless 6-1/4" frames, and a set of nuc's. I'll be busy as a beehive if I start last month!

We ought to from a Dadant hive club and buy a 5.1 mm foundation mill from Mann Lake.


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## Fusion_power

Have fun. I've been having fun for 6 months and still only have 200 frames fully assembled. This thread has my notes about building frames. You might be able to use it.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?325985


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## crofter

kilocharlie said:


> probably try Lauri's foundation arrangement, so ordinary Langstroth sheets will do - turned vertical and attached in the middle. I'll have to wire them all up, and probably build an embedder.


Will it make any difference to the bees if the apex of the cells construction is oriented up vs having flats top and bottom?


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## JoshuaW

Fusion, would you be willing to share your experience with narrow frames? 

I ran 8-frame medium boxes this year and experienced what Charles Dadant pointed out about small hives (emphasis mine): 

"In 1870, he wrote to the Journal des Fermes in France to tell of a visit to a neighbor where he saw bees building traces of comb on the outside of large hives because of a crowded condition of the colonies, while _those in small hives had scarcely filled their supers_. He suddenly realized the significance of this condition. The bees in the large hive were crowded because there had been plenty of room for the queen to lay and for the colony to produce a large population, while in the small hive_ increase had been slow for lack of room_.

Returning home, he at once constructed some hives with sixteen frames in place of eight. He reported the result as miraculous. From that time forward he was a consistent advocate of large brood chambers."

Read more: http://chestofbooks.com/animals/bees/History/Chapter-IV-The-Hive-Controversy.html#ixzz4EFGPuLkG

Thank you Fusion and Bernhard!

I will be building four Dadant Deep hives for next season. I have been following this thread with great interest and enthusiasm!


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## Fusion_power

Joshua, I've shared it in the past and several others have given relevant comments. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?249192


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## JoshuaW

Thank you for the thread.


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## Charlie B

odfrank said:


> I make mine deeper than 11 5/8", even 12" deep. The thin bottom bars on 11 1/4" frames often sag touching the bottom if the box is not deep enough. Plus the boxes shrink.


Actually, Odfrank has asked me to help him cut down his boxes to 8 frame. Something I did after I first started. I converted from 10 to 8 frames and now he has seen the wisdom in doing the same thing.


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## H Mitchell

Charlie B said:


> Actually, Odfrank has asked me to help him cut down his boxes to 8 frame. Something I did after I first started. I converted from 10 to 8 frames and now he has seen the wisdom in doing the same thing.


Does this mean that Odfrank will then be running 8 frame boxes 12" deep? What depth boxes do you use Charlie?


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## odfrank

H Mitchell said:


> Does this mean that Odfrank will then be running 8 frame boxes 12" deep? What depth boxes do you use Charlie?


Don't listen to anything Charlie writes. He is at onset of dementia and drools on endless BS wasting all of our time. SAD what aging does.


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## Charlie B

H Mitchell said:


> Does this mean that Odfrank will then be running 8 frame boxes 12" deep? What depth boxes do you use Charlie?


I use all 8 frame mediums which works well for me. Odfrank has been preaching the gospel of using "jumbo" hive boxes and frames for years so I can't blame him for not readily "coming out" that he's cutting boxes down to 8 frame mediums.


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## ABK

I think Franky and Charlie need a time out and go play in separate sand boxes.


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## pdt

uninformed thought: 
What would stop you from stacking a deep on top of a shallow while hanging deep frames with no bottom bar? Wouldn't the bees continue past the bottom of the foundation and render a "deeper" deep? (setting aside frame stability issues for a second...)


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## Fusion_power

Yes you could stack an empty shallow beneath a deep and yes the bees will build comb. Lots and lots of comb, most of which will be wonky and have to be cut out before the frames above can be removed.


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## kilocharlie

Thanks again, Fusion. Your effort in writing up that post about frames was valiant and stands as one of the great pieces of information here on Beesource. Bravissimo!

Frank - you're correct - 90 degree comb misorientation won't work. I'll program the 3-D printer to make it normal 5.1 mm orientation to the overall dimensions that allows Lauri's foundation arrangement, adapted to modified square Dadant boxes and frames. I'll "cut & paste" some foundation to fit the bed in the printer.

I have a hunch we may really be onto something here. Jumbo hive populations, deep narrow frames, small cell foundation, shallow square supers set at 90 degrees to the brood frames, 2-queen systems, Lauri's mite control method. After the learning curve is settled, I'd almost bet there is built-in advantages over the standard methods. I doubt Bernard would bet against it.


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## pdt

Hmmm...yeah...I can see how that could get pretty wonky. It's my first year of beekeeping and already my "experiments" have created plenty of unintended comb-building. (perhaps for another thread).

Is there an accepted space beneath the lowest set of frames above the bottom board? Or would maybe an upper entrance help?

I like the idea of a single brood chamber but think employing standardized equipment is a worthy goal (much as I like to tinker).


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## crofter

I have set up a couple of stacked four frame boxes on divided 10 frame bottoms to run two queen style. Just got them up to three deep. 

Now I recently read about Ian's triple 6 frame side by side nucs topped with excluders and pairs of 10 frame supers! Jeepers, three queen colonies! hmmm....! 

My wife says keepingbees keeps me from chasing cars, so it is all good!


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## Fusion_power

Picture two queens side by side in a square deep hive with 7 frames (equivalent to 9 Langstroth deep frames) to lay eggs. Put square supers on top. Keep adding supers. Hope you have enough supers.

I can see the 3 queen argument working fairly well if the flow comes on hard and fast and then ends.

P.S. if the urge to chase cars becomes overwhelming, I've found spending a night or two under a full moon to be quite cathartic. The only problem is the barking leaves you a bit hoarse for a few days.


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## ABK

Fusion, so would the honey production be greater than in 2 separate hives that had that same amount of bees? I'm still not too clear on the advantages of the 2 queen system.


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## Knisely

This is the best thread I've found on Beesource in a number of months. Lots to think about, and I can't wait to read the works of the past masters to get even more to think about.


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## JeronimoJC

^^^ Agree! I just finished reading the entire thread. Thanks to all the contributors. 

Here are my thoughts as I evaluate my next steps (forgive me as I am far from a purist):
Things I like:

The versatility of the square box. I would build them using 12" x lumber (11.25")
The idea that deeper brood boxes and brood horizontal space management translates to colony growth.
Love the concept of turning the supers frames 90 degrees to the brood frames (great bee access)


Things I would like to incorporate:

I am into natural comb so I am wresting with how to use top bars. I am not opposed to starting out with frames.
I also subscribe to the benefits of 1.25" top bar spacing.


Things I am uncertain about:

These boxes would be heavy. I don't mind the brood box being heavy as I don't intend to move them. I may use the shallow Lang dimensions for the supers.
I don't know enough, but is one single brood box really sufficient?

I had drawn something before I read this entire thread. My thinking was still Long Hive and trying to incorporate supers without having to lift them. That explains the use of hinges. I was also trying to take advantage of perpendicular super frames to brood frames. Not that what I drew is what I would do at this point, but I throw this out there as a brainstorm idea. Hope not to offend the Dadant faithful with this.


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## Fusion_power

The efficiency factor of having 2 queens is well established. They actually do produce more honey than 2 individual hives of the same relative size. This is because more of the total bee population goes out of the hive to forage. But this is not the primary driver for me. I want the enhanced survival because 2 queens are more likely to survive over winter and more likely to produce a crop the next year.

Look up information on the Jackson Horizontal Hive if you want to see how an efficient horizontal design works.


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## ABK

Have there been controlled studies done to show with repeatability that these benefits are in fact true? I'm asking because I wasn't aware of this fact being "well established". I haven't been able to find much information on two queen systems, as opposed to the plethora of information on traditional single queen beekeeping. I mean if it was unquestionably that much more efficient, wouldn't we all be running them by now?


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## Fusion_power

It is more complicated to run 2 queens, it takes more management effort, timing is critical, plus you have to install a second queen. The Hive and The Honeybee has a chapter devoted to running 2 queen colonies. The problem with Langstroth boxes is that they have to be stacked vertically to run 2 queens. Note that Ian and others who are running 2 or 3 queen nucs are stacking them horizontally. I intend to run my hives horizontally, an advantage of the square modified Dadant design. If you study this a bit, you will find that the biggest savings is in terms of the amount of equipment required for the amount of honey produced. Two queen systems use the minimum equipment and produce the maximum crop of honey. They also can throw some incredibly large swarms if mismanaged!


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## JeronimoJC

Good question, but I can see where the largest benefit is in having a "backup". Here is some info I found online. The first link may be what you are looking for. The last link may help explain the "how" part of this. 

Two-Queen System of Honey Bee Colony Management (US Dept of Agriculture)
http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/CAT87210713/PDF

Two-Queen System of Honey Bee Colony Management (Farrar 1946)
http://www.immenfreunde.de/docs/2queen.pdf

American Bee Journal
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/pdf-files/comparison%20I.pdf

The Magazine of American Beekeeping 
http://www.beeculture.com/the-horizontal-two-queen-system/


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## texanbelchers

JeronimoJC, You're going to have problems with the hinge design. If you use top bars and they are up when open, they would have to build from the bottom up when closed. If you use frames up when open, they could build from a guide on the frame bottom, but the comb will not be interchangeable with the other box. If you use either down when open you'll need some sort of latching mechanism to keep the frames from falling out. (may need that either way).

A box isn't that heavy and you can always move 1 frame at a time. I would suggest sticking to normal stacking or just a long hive with a follower board.


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## JeronimoJC

All good observations. I started with the assumption I would use top bars 'up' when closed. Therefore when open the top bars would be upside dow. My thinking was using a queen excluder to keep the bars in place when rotating the box. Then I switched my thinking on the supers ftom top bars to frames, which I think I would also keep 'up'. 

The boxes I drew are 11.25" deep and would hold 13 frames. This could get to be over 100 lbs. 
if I were to do this the hinge would be only at the first super level. Thereafter I would use super shallows. Which gets me to your last point. I could just use shallower boxes and handle them as usual. 

Thanks for your input.


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## pdt

Fusion_power said:


> Look up information on the Jackson Horizontal Hive if you want to see how an efficient horizontal design works.


Here's an older bee source thread: http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...s-Jackson-Horizontal-hive-plans-or-dimensions

Michael Bush's page on top bars: http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm
I used his measurements to build a 48" long Horizontal Lang, Medium depth, with a solid bottom and a top entrance. The bees (a captured swarm) are much mellower than my other vertical hives (sample size: 2). The only thing I wish for is a better system for a top cover.


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## Fusion_power

The Jackson Horizontal Hive is NOT a modified Langstroth design. It is a horizontal hive design with movable combs specifically adapted for tropical beekeeping. Unique features include a smoke hole at the back of the hive so smoke can be introduced before opening the hive. This may not sound like much, but when dealing with African bee subspecies, it is a critical feature. There is an efficiency to a horizontal hive that Langstroth hives do not have. The brood nest is nearest the front of the hive with honey storage at the back. Frames are deliberately made with solid top bars meaning that they are like a top bar hive with no gap between the top bars. This prevents bees from flying out of the brood nest when honey is harvested. The hive is designed for migratory beekeeping. It is made of heavy corrugated plastic cut in a specific pattern so air flow passes up through the corrugations keeping the hive cooler.

Like more horizontal hives, honey is harvested one frame at a time. Think of rolling a plastic drum up to a hive, opening the honey area - leaving the brood nest alone - pulling out 8 frames of sealed honey, quickly slicing it out of the frames into the drum, then rolling the drum to the next hive. When the drum is too heavy to be easily handled, put it on the truck and carry it to the bottling room. Open a valve in the bottom of the drum and honey flows out and through a strainer ready to put in jars. By dropping the slabs of honey into the drum properly, the comb will be mostly crushed leaving very little work to get the honey separated from the wax.


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## pdt

Fusion_power said:


> The Jackson Horizontal Hive is NOT a modified Langstroth design.


Fully understood.


----------



## lharder

Excellent thread. Bernard and Fusion have both moved me to move towards trying it, not just the box but the management system as well. I think I can adapt it in part by using 2 medium 8 frame boxes with follower boards. In theory I could use extra deep frames with the depth of 2 boxes that would be 13 1/4 inches with frames 12 7/8 deep. Would have to beef up my puny top bars. Wouldn't have the clustering space of a wide box (I could compensate with an extra box). A project for next year. I will make a couple large boxes as well and try them out. 

I also have M. Palmer style side by side nuc boxes that I could stack on each other and use as a side by side 2 queen system on a divided bottom board. Hmm. That would be much easier to manage than my current system. 

Thanks for the interesting ideas and will reread a few times to see what I missed.


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## dtrooster

Working out logistics myself. I think I'm gonna use matching half sized mediums for my supers as I think it would make it easier to split the bottom box into 2 nucs with each having its own separate supers. What I don't know is how having the honey separated above the hive will affect curing so I'll probably make some square supers as well


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## BernhardHeuvel

I recommend first to try the square Dadant and later include the 2 queen system. If you mix and muddle up right in the beginning, you will crash. 

It is already annoying and disheartening enough to learn to super right and this will produce a lot of burr comb behind the follower board. Once you learned how to handle the follower board and supering, you won't get any burr comb in the empty space anymore. Lots of learning needed to achieve this. It'll take some time. 

Leave out the 2 queen per hive for the beginning. That is a complete different thing and a little tricky.


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## dtrooster

The intent is using a division board and each half of the deep having its own super. The double or even triple nuc system to mate queens, get comb drawn or supplement other colonies with brood. I realize the learning curve ahead of me in all parts of the process is gonna be steep. Thanks a bunch for the input. 

I've heard you mention a deep bottom board. How much we talking over the pretty standard 3/4" and is a slatted bottom necessary to keep comb from going wild off the bottom of the frames? All my main hive body parts will be homebuilt so I space can things however I'd like.


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## JeronimoJC

BernhardHeuvel said:


> It is already annoying and disheartening enough to learn to super right and this will produce a lot of burr comb behind the follower board. Once you learned how to handle the follower board and supering, you won't get any burr comb in the empty space anymore. Lots of learning needed to achieve this. It'll take some time.


Bernhard, 
Speaking of burr comb; Can you explain a little of happens or how you manage the space between the super and the brood frames, especially when you place the frames 90 degrees to each other? From one of your videos it looked like there is burr comb in that space. Does the queen excluder help prevent burr comb at that location?


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

dtrooster said:


> The intent is using a division board and each half of the deep having its own super.


Intentions are good, but realize that you loose a lot of adaptability and be aware the empty space has it's effects on a colony. You loose those effects when stuffing the box with combs and queens. See postings above about clustering of field bees outside/beside the broodnest. Also you loose the angled supering, 90 degrees to the brood combs. I use only one super above the 2 queen hives, still at 90°. Combs will fill up faster. 



dtrooster said:


> How much we talking over the pretty standard 3/4" and is a slatted bottom necessary to keep comb from going wild off the bottom of the frames?


I build my own deep bottom boards 4 inch/10 cm. 

A slatted bottom isn't necessary, I don't have them in my hives. You see wild comb in case you don't adjust the follower board right. It is sort of a game, you watch the broodnest and you adapt the follower board accordingly. You see a lot of pollen on the outside comb or inside the broodnest = remove one brood frame (the one with the pollen). You see brood bottom to top, side to side on all frames, add another frame. Never give more than 7 combs, though, rather drain out one comb for a nuc or so. If you keep them tight, you won't see wild comb anywhere, neither in the empty space beside the broodnest, nor below in the deep bottom. Of course the bees want to draw comb, so give foundation in the supers for them to work on. 

In the beginning you will find and need to cut out wild burr comb all the time. Some say this is a disadvantage, but on the other hand this behavior buffers your faults. So instead your bees are hanging in the trees, after swarming, they build comb that you have to cut away. Until you learned to adapt it right. It is no rocket science to adapt the follower board to the broodnest. But you need to learn to read your queens, which is an interesting challenge and very instructive. So don't give up too quickly, if you learn to do this right, the magic happens. You'll see.


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## BernhardHeuvel

JeronimoJC said:


> Does the queen excluder help prevent burr comb at that location?


Yes. You get burr comb between supers but seldom between brood chamber and supers. I would get less burr comb between supers if they weren't self-made but instead properly build with the right bee space in between. Also I have bees that have a tendency to build burr comb, other Buckfast strains completely lack this behavior.


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## dtrooster

4 inches below the frames to the bottom boards, thats definitely against the established standards. Thanks again, looking forward to it.


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## Fusion_power

Note carefully that Bernhard is using a metal grill in the bottom which increases air circulation and lets light into the bottom. This suppresses comb building in that area. You can do the same by increasing light entry and air flow into the bottom of the hive.


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## JeronimoJC

Fusion_power said:


> Note carefully that Bernhard is using a metal grill in the bottom which increases air circulation and lets light into the bottom. This suppresses comb building in that area. You can do the same by increasing light entry and air flow into the bottom of the hive.


Suppressing comb building in the brood box? I believe his grill extends thru the entire box. Hopefully it doesn't suppress comb building much, because I was planning on doing the same and I need my bees to build lots of comb.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Although the mesh extends all over the bottom, it gets covered with a board when not moving them. The screen provides ventilation when migrating the bees into a new location. 

The floor isn' t covered completely, lets say about 3/4 of the floor. The open part is below the empty space.


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## dtrooster

JeronimoJC said:


> Suppressing comb building in the brood box? I believe his grill extends thru the entire box. Hopefully it doesn't suppress comb building much, because I was planning on doing the same and I need my bees to build lots of comb.


 talking about controlling a comb circus hanging off the bottom of the frames with a 4" space down there.


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## rolftonbees

I am now tired after reading this fascinating thread. I will be changing nothing due to exhaustion. Lol

I change from necessity only. I cannot afford to change due to concepts etc. I had read the rose method and decided that I could do that with an all medium setup. I put mediums under my hive deeps to encourage them to move. Then this year they were booming and it was necessary to split them. Then I decided to expand more and bought splits and they were in deep frames. Then I wanted to give a split some help and it was deep frames to be donated to mediums.........okay this is not fun any more. 

I habe some extra deep combs now. I take a coue out in my spare box in my wheelbarrow. I have moved everyone back to deep brood nests. They seem to like those and I still need to be matched up with my fellow beeks from whom I get help or trade splits etc.

Its all about necessity not theory. I am making lots of changes regarding lifting etc due to need not theory. Inthought about using 8 frame stuff so I tried to lift some mediums with only 8 not enough lighter. So ten is fine and I move frames not boxes. In theory 8 frame is better, not not enough to make the change.

This all being said, to make the point, I try it and see if it works for me. Theory is for education, but has to be integrated with my reality and abilities.


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## JeronimoJC

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Although the mesh extends all over the bottom, it gets covered with a board when not moving them. The screen provides ventilation when migrating the bees into a new location.
> The floor isn' t covered completely, lets say about 3/4 of the floor. The open part is below the empty space.


Thanks for clarifying Bernhard! I am trying to reconcile related comments from various posts. Here is what I understand:

Most of your hives are equipped with 4" Deep Bottom Boards (first picture). This is done primary for purposes of transporting hives. The Deep Bottom Boards are not slatted, but have a mesh/screen, more clearly shown in the second picture. When transportation is not necessary you cover approximately ¾ of the floor. Presumably you do this by sliding a flat board under the mesh/screen. 

The ¼ of the floor that remains uncovered is in the area where you don’t have frames (behind the follower board). Therefore, the mesh/screen provides ventilation and light to that space, which according to Fusion helps in suppressing comb building in that area. This indirectly provides some ventilation to the area where the frames are. 

Can you confirm you leave the 1/4 of the floor space uncovered thru the winter?



BernhardHeuvel said:


>





BernhardHeuvel said:


>


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## JConnolly

BernhardHeuvel said:


>


Bernhard, I've got a question about this video and your follower board. In a previous post you showed how the follower board extended to the top of the box to the queen excluder. What about the bottom edge of the follower board, how far down does it extend? Thanks in advance.


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## aunt betty

ABK said:


> I think Franky and Charlie need a time out and go play in separate sand boxes.


I enjoy the competitive banter that they toss at each other. Leave em alone plz. It's part of the fun.


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## Charlie B

Thank you Aunt Betty!


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## BernhardHeuvel

JConnolly said:


> What about the bottom edge of the follower board, how far down does it extend? Thanks in advance.


Follower board ends where the frames end at the bottom. so space below for the bees to pass. 



aunt betty said:


> I enjoy the competitive banter that they toss at each other.


I absolutely love it. :thumbsup:


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## BernhardHeuvel

Use a metal rail on either sides to rest the frames upon. Makes those frames sliding so much easier.


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## Charlie B

Thank you Bernhard and Aunt Betty. You may be interested to know that Ollie Frank is such a stubborn braggart that his very own bee club has nicknamed him Rooster.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Some end of summer impressions.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqqem2bVqWw


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## skyscraper

~Bernhard
What is your swarm rate now, that you use follower boards?

Do you still find queen cells?

What's your opinion on someone replicating your brood box idea, but not splitting the hive?

Also do you think this link is true and could affect the optimal brood box size down in the south here because the shape of the brood may be wider and shorter?

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/nestshape.html

It seems to me your aim is to have only brood in the broodnest, and almost nothing else. So, is it better to have less frames than the queen could lay in a "cycle"? Or would that cause a crowding swarm?
It seems less frames is so because your 2 queen ops have even less frames per queen.


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## Charlie B

Speaking of swarm rates, someone ask Ollie what his swarm rate is on his goofy Warre' hives.


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## BernhardHeuvel

skyscraper said:


> What is your swarm rate now, that you use follower boards?


I got down to 2 % this year. 



skyscraper said:


> Do you still find queen cells?


Of course I do. I need to highlight, that I use Buckfast bees. The good ones.  Buckfast bees are different to for example Carnica bees. Buckfast bees prepare for swarming, building cells. Put an egg into it, even tend larvae...and suddenly bite those cells back. Gnaw it down. 
In opposition to Carnica bees, Buckfast queens continue(!) to lay eggs even in high swarming preparations. Carnica queens shut down egg laying altogether. While the Buckfast bees leave open all options, Carnica bees have to swarm, because there is no option back. Buckfast bees have this option, through a continued broodnest, and they make use of that option many times during the season. 

So what I look for is: does the queen continue to lay eggs? I pull the center comb where I can check this, or on the frames next to it. If I find too much nectar and pollen, and only little or no eggs, I go through the complete hive. Seven frames that is. Easy...I don't look for cells, I look for eggs. So it is also a matter of the bee you keep. All local and even Carnica bees can be selected for continued egg laying during swarming preparations. Pick the good ones, breed from them. 



skyscraper said:


> What's your opinion on someone replicating your brood box idea, but not splitting the hive?


What splitting do you speak of?



skyscraper said:


> Also do you think this link is true and could affect the optimal brood box size down in the south here because the shape of the brood may be wider and shorter?


From what I have seen so far, I would say it doesn't matter. Egg laying is temperature related, that has been shown in some interesting studies (in German, though). The daily maximum temperature that is (not average temperature). So down South with all the hot weather one would expect more egg laying activity. But you may have a dearth here and there, so that all evens out a bit. It is the same species: Apis mellifera. I am sure that this Dadant Brother Adam box meets all needs, be it down South or up North.



skyscraper said:


> It seems to me your aim is to have only brood in the broodnest, and almost nothing else. So, is it better to have less frames than the queen could lay in a "cycle"? Or would that cause a crowding swarm?


It certainly is better to have the queen running around chasing empty cells to lay eggs into it, than cells that stay empty for some time because the queen can't keep up egg laying. Bees will fill those empty cells for sure in no time. Be it nectar or be it pollen. Will be closed down before the queen shows up. If this compactness of the broodnest breaks up, with brood scattered all over, the bees become unhappy with the queen...and start their replacement procedures. Commonly know as swarming. So what you want is a compact, nicely shaped broodnest. Foragers that enter the hive, will find a nice smelling, strong smelling broodnest in front of them. And there is the smell of fresh wax in the air, too, what a bliss. Open brood, fresh comb, strong queen = satisfaction. Satisfied bees don't swarm. (except Carnica bees...)


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## BernhardHeuvel

Charlie B said:


> Speaking of swarm rates, someone ask Ollie what his swarm rate is on his goofy Warre' hives.


I wonder what happened to the challenge you two (and others that joined in) started?


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## BernhardHeuvel

Also want to highlight, that the aim of the follower board and thus the restriction of the broodnest is, to produce bees with a longer lifespan. This is how you bring a hive to boil with bees. If 1,000 bees die per day and 1,000 bees are born, you don't have much of an population explosion. But what happens if only 500 bees die and still 1,000 bees spring into life? That growth curve looks way different. 

It probably has to do with nurse bees to brood ratio. If a broodnest is compact, less nurse bees are needed to feed and warm the brood. So the overall number of nurse bees sinks, which increases the number of bees that get older. (Winter bees, even in summer. Better called permanent bees?) This increases the number of foragers, too. 

One Dadant frame (Bro Adam style) holds up to 8,000 cells. You can produce a lot of bees on a small number of frames.


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## odfrank

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I wonder what happened to the challenge you two (and others that joined in) started?



See # 65.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...nsula-Bait-Hive-Challenge&highlight=challenge

Nobody won because Charlie was able to catch all nearby swarms before they sought out a new nest.


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## skyscraper

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Pick the good ones, breed from them.
> 
> ...
> 
> What splitting do you speak of?


1. What about italians?

2. Aren't you splitting hives every year?

My goal will be honey production rather than splitting a hive, so I want to see how long I can run a hive without splitting for honey production sake. 

Also, I'm pretty sure I would be starting with a package...so if you had to start with a package, what would be your brood box approach for a first year hive? For instance, would you start with a following board right away?

What's your opinion on using a custom-made thin following board on a 8-frame wide sized hive? (This would be a custom box with custom frames, like Fusion Power has built, but not square. I would use 6 frames for brood.)


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## Fusion_power

A lot depends on your location and what you are starting with. Given you are in Texas, you could do a spring split of an established colony and still produce a crop of honey. So the question is not "either/or" but rather, what makes the most sense in your particular situation. If you want more bees, do a carefully timed spring split and make a crop of honey with 2 colonies instead of 1. If you want to run strictly for honey production, then control swarming and produce a crop of honey from one colony. Since you are starting with a package, there is very low probability they will swarm the first year so management should be oriented toward keeping the bees building and making honey.


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## skyscraper

Fusion_power said:


> A lot depends on your location and what you are starting with. Given you are in Texas, you could do a spring split of an established colony and still produce a crop of honey. So the question is not "either/or" but rather, what makes the most sense in your particular situation. If you want more bees, do a carefully timed spring split and make a crop of honey with 2 colonies instead of 1. If you want to run strictly for honey production, then control swarming and produce a crop of honey from one colony. Since you are starting with a package, there is very low probability they will swarm the first year so management should be oriented toward keeping the bees building and making honey.


How has the square box colonies done this year for you?

Do you use all 12-13 frames on the bottom? If so, how many of those have brood? Are the outside frames honey and pollen?

I'm asking just to compare with Bernhard's results.


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## Fusion_power

I don't have enough experience with them yet to say for sure how they are going to perform. What I have seen so far I like a lot. I am running 14 frames in the bottom box or if with 2 queens, I put a divider between them and have 7 frames on each side. This works very well so far. The only issue I've found is that I have to put a block of wood stood up vertically in between the entrances at the front of the hive. Otherwise, the bees will walk from one side to the other and eventually one of the queens will disappear. I figured this out after losing two young queens that I raised to set up the 2 queen colonies. I raised more queens so it was not a major issue. I had cut stringers for some stairs about a month ago so I had all these nice triangles of wood about 6 inches on the short sides that work very well as separators on the landing board.

I have not seen more than 4 frames of brood in a box so far. We have had a dearth for the last 2 months and just this week have the first fall nectar from goldenrod. I expect my bees to produce about 4 frames of brood each as they prepare for winter. They don't overwinter with large colonies. a football size cluster is typical.


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## lharder

I'm starting to think about this winter's building projects. But first, before I start, where/how do I get/make an excluder for a square hive. I think its been discussed but can't find it.


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## kilocharlie

Make a piece of 3/8 plywood with a 3/4" thick rim bound around it to fit your hive. Cut out a hole just smaller than the standard excluder and attach it to the plywood. Sorry if this is blatantly obvious, just the first solution that popped into my head.

If it is for the 2-queen system, cut the standard excluder in half. Make 2 holes to fit the half-excluders. You could get fancy and use 2 full-size standard excluders cut to maximize the size over the halves of the square box, but try it with cutting one in half first. Make sure you leave room for the divider partition, and that it fits to your plywood plane, keeping the 2 colonies separate.

Another suggestion - make the base for the 2-queen hives to have entrances on opposite sides.


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## odfrank

Sweinty sells them, or use plastic ones hobbled together.


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## Fusion_power

As noted, you can purchase them in Europe and possibly from Canada. If you want to make them, my suggestion is to do wood and wire excluders which were once widely available but have been discontinued because they cost more to make. Purchase one standard wood bound wire Langstroth excluder for each desired square excluder. Cut the Langstroth excluder into 4 parts by slicing the "rails" of the excluders. Cut wood sides and center strips to make the correct size excluder. One of the advantages of a wood and wire excluder is that bees will cross through it more readily than through a full size wired excluder.

https://translate.google.com/transl...er-mit-holzrahmen-12er-dadant.html&edit-text=

This excluder is 509 X 509 mm which is about 6 mm more than my square hives are cut. I could trim it to fit if needed or just use it as is.

See about page 38 in this pdf. I can't tell the dimensions of their excluders so please verify that they are square before purchasing.

https://odoo.propolis-etc.ca/filestore/Propolis_2016_2017-WEB.pdf


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## lharder

Thanks, I thought I may have to make my own.

How thick are purchased wood encased excluders and why do bees cross them more readily? Would it do harm to encase a normal 10 frame and have a wider wood border on it? One could orient it so it crosses all the brood frames. 

I made a cloake board that had an excluder that the bees seemed hesitant to cross. I thought maybe the gap between boxes was too wide and that I needed to make the excluder separation thinner.


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## Fusion_power

The critical measurement with excluders is the bee space above and below. I've found that exactly 5/16 of an inch is correct for both. Do the math to figure out how to cut the wood.

I recommend against having wide wooden ledges inside the hive. Enclosing a Langstroth excluder would leave a ledge on each side. That is why I suggest cutting an excluder into strips and putting wood between each strip of metal. Bees will more readily cross the excluder if wood strips are used.


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## lharder

Thanks FP for the supplier link. Looks like they have a big and varied line up of interesting stuff. I'll give them a phone call and see what the dimensions of their big excluders are. Looks like one way or another I can make it work. 

SB, thanks for the suggested bee space for the excluder. Makes sense to me.


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## brianjhagy

I wanted a little input on which box configuration is best for Langstroth hives, any opinion helps. Would one be better served doing a 3 box (medium) hive or a two box (deep) hive, with supers to come later? Or even a one box (deep) hive? 

I currently have top bar hives but am going to add Langstroths next spring. 

Thanks for the input,
Brian


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## Riverderwent

brianjhagy said:


> I wanted a little input on which box configuration is best for Langstroth hives, any opinion helps. Would one be better served doing a 3 box (medium) hive or a two box (deep) hive, with supers to come later? Or even a one box (deep) hive?


Oh no, you didn't. I use all 8 frame mediums. I put a queen excluder over the third box and, during spring, add supers with drawn comb one at a time just above the excluder and below any other honey supers. This helps reduce swarming. If the brood area was any smaller, it would be too small for my bees. If it was any larger, the added supers of drawn comb would not interrupt the honey dome over the brood and would not be as effective preventing swarming. That is the biggest advantage to me, but eight frame mediums are also good because I am older, and they are easier to lift than larger boxes. I have too many hives to move boxes by pulling out one frame at a time. And I don't have (or want) enough hives to justify hiring a crew or buying a forklift and moving it around between yards. I also enjoy being able to interchange boxes and frames and not having to keep up with more than one size of equipment. It works for me.


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## lharder

So I have cut the wood for my first modified dadent boxes. Enough for 4 hives. Just mediums for now figuring I would use 2 mediums for a brood box and try to manage these as Bernard illustrates. Will be able to introduce some extra deep frames as I go along I think. I figure a max of 5 mediums should be enough for the bees at their peak with a couple of extra boxes to spare. How tall do these colonies get?


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## odfrank

lharder said:


> So I have cut the wood for my first modified dadent boxes. Enough for 4 hives. Just mediums for now figuring I would use 2 mediums for a brood box and try to manage these as Bernard illustrates. Will be able to introduce some extra deep frames as I go along I think. I figure a max of 5 mediums should be enough for the bees at their peak with a couple of extra boxes to spare. How tall do these colonies get?


What is going to make an all medium hive qualify as a Dadant hive?


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## Fusion_power

ODF, I have them cut and packed ready to ship, but USPS wants $60. I'm waiting on a trip to birmingham when I can go by UPS and ship them cheaper.


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## lharder

odfrank said:


> What is going to make an all medium hive qualify as a Dadant hive?


You are strictly right. All I have now is mediums so I'm going to learn to manage 2 14 frame medium boxes like one Dadant box similar to how Bernard does. Over time, I will try to get or make dadant frames and start working them into 2 medium boxes pushing the mediums into medium supers, gradually converting the broodnest into dadant sized frames.


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## skyscraper

Riverderwent said:


> Oh no, you didn't. I use all 8 frame mediums. I put a queen excluder over the third box and, during spring, add supers with drawn comb one at a time just above the excluder and below any other honey supers. This helps reduce swarming. If the brood area was any smaller, it would be too small for my bees. If it was any larger, the added supers of drawn comb would not interrupt the honey dome over the brood and would not be as effective preventing swarming. That is the biggest advantage to me, but eight frame mediums are also good because I am older, and they are easier to lift than larger boxes. I have too many hives to move boxes by pulling out one frame at a time. And I don't have (or want) enough hives to justify hiring a crew or buying a forklift and moving it around between yards. I also enjoy being able to interchange boxes and frames and not having to keep up with more than one size of equipment. It works for me.


How much do you harvest avg per hive? 

Do your outer frames have any brood?

How many boxes do you winter in per hive?


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## kilocharlie

Just bumping this thread up to the top so I can go print it at the library. Moderator may delete it tomorrow. Thank you.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Fusion_power said:


> There are hundreds of variations of hive designs proposed over the years.


Today I saw this thread for the first time. When it was started I was too busy with the harvest of my hives.

I especially want to thank Dar and Bernhard for their in-depth knowledge of a square beehive management and the details they have generously presented. I have to reread some posts to assimilate and better retain some information. In Portugal I work with a square hive and I will see how I can apply some of the ideas mentioned in it.


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## Michael Bush

>You may be interested to know that Ollie Frank is such a stubborn braggart that his very own bee club has nicknamed him Rooster.

"It ain't braggin' if you done it"--Dizzy Dean


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## Eduardo Gomes

I do not know if it was mentioned by Bernhard but I have a question: to check the adjustment of the follower board you/he inspects the nest weekly, fortnightly, ...

This aspect has a lot of relevance for me because of the impact it has on my time management.


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## Fusion_power

I can't answer for Bernhard, but my view is that inspections should be done according to the needs of the bees. I leave my bees alone most of the winter. Preparing for winter should be done in the fall. This includes food and arrangement of the hive around the cluster. Early spring needs inspections done at least every 2 weeks to prevent swarming and detect any hive conditions that would prevent production of a crop of honey.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Thank you Dar. 
It was not clear in my question but I am referring to the frequency of inspections during the period of rapid nest expansion, in my area from late winter to mid-spring, when any time gain is very important in my case, and I think of many of us. Therefore in this period how often the beekeeper inspects the nest to adjust the follower board. 
If my question is not clearly stated, let me know.


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## sweetas

In Australia, it is illegal to have hives that do not have movable frames. That cuts out some choices. What can a hive produce with movable frames. Some commercial beekeepers in Western Australia regularly produce over 300kg (660lb) and many produce over 250 kg (550lb) per hive per year so I would say movable frames do not restrict teh honey flow. Yes, it does help having a good climate and flora and no real pest and diseases.


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## 1102009

I´ve read all posts in this thread and thanks to Dar, who send me the link.
I would have avoided many mistakes if I had seen it earlier.

Bernhard, you use "Kaltbau" or am I wrong? Ever tried "Warmbau"? I wanted to use Dadant square because of that. But so far thought it too much stress on the bees to change winter and summer arrangements.

The 90° arrangement, do you see any disadvantage with ventilation?
I leave the floor boards in the whole year and small entrance ( 12cm). This to have better defense.

Please comment on this, but remember it´s not production of honey I go for ( no discussion about that, please), but rather resistance.

My question about burr comb was answered in this thread. I don´t want to use a queen excluder, going another path with beekeeping.
My first mentor in bee class used 10 frames dadant without excluder and had no brood in the top supers.
He had Carnicas and they rather swarmed than expand into the super.
With other bees it could be splitting.
His bees, even established, stayed in the bottom box.


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## DerTiefster

I want to give a hearty "Thank you," "Freundliche Grüße," and all other greetings/thanks/appreciation to the posters of this thread. It has collected much in the way of observations, suggestions, solutions, and rationale for many things I've been puzzled over and have been considering doing. As a result, I will probably not make as many mistakes as I would have made.

For instance, DarJones' summary of the MSDJ tells me that my thought of making double-medium Langstroths is probably missing the boat on some of the flexibility of square geometry and that the 12 7/8" frame size may not be exactly stupid but might need some more thought. So much information of great value is included here, and I'm only 1/3 of the way through the thread now.

I've had a few PMs with some of the posters here, and even about these things, but didn't know of this thread until today. Thanks again. Maybe I can contribute something besides simple appreciation within a year.

Michael


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## DerTiefster

In thinking through the square hive operational patterns provided by various posters, yet another question occurs to me: In the brood box which is limited to 7 frames by Bernhard's recommendations and observations, there is a large passage for bees directly into the honey super(s). Is it wise/reasonable to provide a chimney through multiple supers by using, let's say, one or two fewer frames than the box is capable of holding? This would provide an extension of the passageway from the brood box to as high in the super stack (likely only a few boxes) as one wished to provide. Can this benefit honey storage? The observation provided is that the brood box void is not filled with burr comb as long as the brood nest is properly sized. Would a passageway bounded by a follower board be left open, or blocked?

Michael


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## odfrank

>Is it wise/reasonable to provide a chimney through multiple supers by using, let's say, one or two fewer frames than the box is capable of holding?

Yikes!


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## Fusion_power

It only works in the brood box. If you go up into the supers leaving an opening, you are asking for a free comb disaster.


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## DerTiefster

Is it (believed to be) understood what response the bees are making which leaves the brood box open beyond the follower board? I certainly agree that the bees have very little in the way of reasoning (I suspect none) and respond instinctively to certain stimuli and conditions. Walt Wright made interpretations about which there is much argument concerning nectar management. Does it seem reasonable from some similarly arguable perspective that the bees might leave open the unoccupied brood box portion (which could be viewed as an extension of the hive entrance) while finding it irresistible to burr up the path to the top of the honey storage area?

[One might offer that the bees' perspective is such a one, and that from the bees' perspective, this is reasonable. I would respond that the bees' perspective is inarguable, whereas I asked for an arguable perspective.]

Oliver: I didn't understand the "Yikes" except as expressing shock that such an idea would occur to anyone. I am already surprised by the simple observation that large chunks of the brood box free space can remain. I see bees in my much different hive geometry drawing wax down into any void in the brood box. The interpretation I make of that is that the bees don't like the foundation I provided on the combs [correction: frames] in place, and they prefer to draw their own in an appropriate void such as where I omitted a frame. This seems to be in agreement with Matt Davey's and others' observations that open frames are more readily accepted by the bees as extensions of the brood nest than are frames with foundation. But then leaving the brood box space open stands out as a mystery.

Has anyone actually tried leaving an open tunnel at the edge of the supers of a jumbo frame hive? It seems reasonable to attempt in response to the statement that open space beside the brood nest provides ready access to nectar storage w/o passing through the brood nest. For myself, I could only guess at the answer. It seems that a lot of beekeeping is empirical.

This and the closely related square Dadant-ish jumbo-ish threads are really interesting. "Thank you," to the O.P.s and participants.

Michael


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## wasabi

I just wanted to say this is one of my favorite threads that beesource has to offer. 
Incredible exchange of insights, ideas and techniques with (veiled?) civility. 

Bravo bump to share.

Doug


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## Charlie B

You're welcome wasabi!


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## JConnolly

jwcarlson said:


> I have zero interest in cutting frame parts though. I'd rather break my leg.


If you broke your leg you'd have plenty of time to sit and make frame parts.


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## TexasFreedom

A very interesting thread, it's taken me a couple of weeks to go through this whole discussion.

For those who like having side-by-side queens, I'm curious. If 2 is better, why not 4 or 6? Has anyone ever tried putting 6 hives together? Like a 6-pack of beer?

Call me curious.


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## Fusion_power

There is a declining rate of return. Two or three queens side by side can be productive. There just is not much benefit from 4.

Think of it like this. The objective is to produce a large crop of honey with minimal effort and minimum equipment. A corollary of producing large crops is that non-productive colonies have to be eliminated. It is possible to produce a large crop of honey with single queens, but this requires relatively more equipment. It is possible to produce a large crop of honey with 2 queens and they will still be productive even if one of the queens fails but they require a bit more management effort. With 3 queens, the equipment has to be modified heavily and the amount of effort required goes up significantly. From that point up, more queens require relatively more management and require even more modifications to equipment making it less efficient in either labor or equipment. The sweet spot is with either 2 or 3 queens.


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## kilocharlie

DerTiefster - just make a cork hole in the side of the honey super, don't remove a comb to make a tunnel. They know what to do. If it gets cold, or the nectar flow tapers off, plug it with a cork.


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## DerTiefster

Kilocharlie: Your suggestion is exactly what I would do (provide an upper entrance) if I simply wanted to provide such an entrance. I was trying to ask for anyone who had tested whether the bees would burr-comb plug such an in-hive path. It seemed a natural question given Bernhard's observation that when "appropriately managed" the bees do not fill the open area opposite the follower with burr comb. I was surprised that they did not, and was curious as to how far this behavior might carry on.

I have made such a hive, but I was caught unexpectedly by a swarm, and placed that swarm into the 12 7/8" frame, double-medium hive. Unfortunately, it seems to have been a secondary swarm with a virgin queen. I base this on the lack of brood during its first week or more in place. Gotta get this fixed. I wanted that box to be teeming with bees ASAP, and I inadvertently appear to have blocked that option. They've been making wax and storing nectar, so I think they're not totally queenless. But I'm a newbie.

I am an experimentalist by trade. That sometimes means I make planned mistakes, just to confirm what doesn't work. At least, that's what I tell myself.

Michael


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## JeronimoJC

Glad to see this thread still going. Had to catch up a bit. 



DerTiefster said:


> Kilocharlie: It seemed a natural question given Bernhard's observation that when "appropriately managed" the bees do not fill the open area opposite the follower with burr comb. I was surprised that they did not, and was curious as to how far this behavior might carry on.


My understanding is bees sometimes build burr comb in that open space, but it isn't much or it isn't a big deal to manage. Part of the reason for the bees not building much comb there is there is more ventilation in that particular part of the hive. 



BernhardHeuvel said:


> Although the mesh extends all over the bottom, it gets covered with a board when not moving them. The screen provides ventilation when migrating the bees into a new location.
> 
> The floor isn' t covered completely, lets say about 3/4 of the floor. The open pjart is below the empty space.


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## DerTiefster

A-ha! I think I had missed that part from Bernhard's posts. Now it makes (marginally) more sense. There can be a huge amount of information packed into posts from experienced folks. Sometimes it's implicit in what's not said, sometimes it is explicitly said but just not explicitly connected to important related bits.

Michael


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## 1102009

I need help!
My frames in my square dadant boxes have wide top bars so the spaces between are very narrow ( one bee space) and keep the bees from using the supers on top.
At least one hive was isolated from stores in winter because of that, the cluster was not mobile enough to cross the wide bars.

Any ideas how to put up with this?
I plan to overwinter with one deep. But I would like to have a super filled with stores on top. Or not?
Then in late summer I would have to take the super off and try to push the brood nests down to force the bees to make honey domes.


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## JeronimoJC

Could you add spacers between frames? I posted this elsewhere:



JeronimoJC said:


> One could always add spacers to the frames if you feel the need to adjust bee space or bar center to center spacing.
> 
> I made several 1" top bar frames and utilized 3/8" upholstery tacks as spacers (learned from Bernhard). Note the location of the spacers are opposite to each other on one side only. This way if you flip the frame spacing remains the same. I have some burr comb, but it doesn't require any significant extra effort to manage.
> 
> View attachment 32421
> 
> 
> View attachment 32422


Ideally you may be able to trim the top bars as you add spacers. This way you increase bee-space while maintaining the center to center frame spacing.


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## dtrooster

I checked one of my hives only to find brood up into the 4th medium heavy with the top box almost packed but not capped off enough to pull it. So in I went to see, a column of brood about 4 frames wide up the center and honey/pollen double wide up the sides. Pulled and dropped combs, got the brood back down into 3. Ended up with supers worth of capped and the top 2 uncapped/foundation checkerboarded. This is friggin retarded going thru so much hassle to keep a hive enjoyable to work. So glad these threads about the square deeps came up before my arsenal of mediums got to big, the ones I have will be relegated to nuc and queen production as soon as I get enough Dadants built. Thanks guys


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## odfrank

Rooster are you talking 8 frame mediums or tens?


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## dtrooster

8's, but I can't see 10 tens being a whole lot better. Im done with that, I'm all about productive use of my leisure time. That ain't it


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## Charlie B

Rooster is right! My back is not 10 frame worthy!


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## dtrooster

Get in better shape Charlie, it's not that hard. Lol


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## Charlie B

As you can see Rooster, I'm much better looking and slimmer than most of my bee buddies!


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## dtrooster

:lookout: truth of the matter is I have a shoulder that's ruint and I'm not ready to go under the knife just yet. Lifting heavy over my head is a wee bit troublesome :no:


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## Riverderwent

dtrooster said:


> truth of the matter is I have a shoulder that's ruint and I'm not ready to go under the knife just yet. Lifting heavy over my head is a wee bit troublesome


Queen excluder over 3 medium eight frame boxes works for me. They keep the honey below the excluder. I get it above that. Works with the frugal mutts that inhabit my hives.


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## dtrooster

I thought about that because that's what the brood nest ends up every time but it's still usually 3 boxes to go thru to see what's happening in there. I don't want my bees swarming off into somebodies attic, I'd prefer to be in control of the situation. In pretty sure my path forward in this is clear.


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## Riverderwent

All the best. You should throw that troublesome eight frame medium equipment in the back of my truck and let me haul it off for you.


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## dtrooster

I'm gonna use it, just not for big hives. The beauty is 2 medium boxes stacked is perfect for the deep frames and transitioning is pretty easy from what I can tell so far


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## Charlie B

Truth be told, I got Ollie on to 8 frame equipment and he's never thanks me for that.


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## Fusion_power

It all breaks down to variants of 3 basic hive designs and 3 ways of managing those designs. Each can be evaluated in terms of advantages and disadvantages and each has a place in apiculture.

The hive designs are Single cavity, Horizontal moveable comb, and Vertical Stacked moveable frame.

The ways of managing are Fixed Comb Swarm based, Top Bar moveable comb, and Suspended Frame..

Single Cavity hives provide a single cavity intended for brood and honey storage. Brood nest and honey management is rudimentary at best. Honey is harvested from a defined area either at the top or back of the hive. Single cavity hives can be oriented vertically or horizontally as exemplified by the Bee Gum, Bienenekiste, and Skep. A general feature of single cavity hives is volume between 4000 and 8000 cubic inches. Virtually all Single Cavity hives rely on reproductive swarming for increase.

Horizontal moveable comb hives require the bees to work from front to back of the hive therefore require different management methods. Bees have a natural inclination to work vertically which is stymied by the horizontal hive. Fortunately for beekeepers, bees are highly adaptable and will work just as well in a horizontal design hive as in vertical. Horizontal hives are highly adapted for tropical agriculture because they can be opened from the top and honey harvested with minimal disruption of the brood nest. Horizontal hives incorporate a fixed cavity size and either top bars or suspended frames. A key advantage of horizontal hives is that the brood nest is always easily accessed by removing the cover. A key detriment is that honey must be harvested by the comb.

Vertical Stacked hives with moveable frames are pretty much industry standard. Temperate climates are ideal for this design. The key advantage is the ability to add honey storage space as needed and then to harvest the honey by the box. Virtually all vertically stacked hives use suspended frames because top bars result in attachment of comb from one box to the next box down in the stack.


Fixed comb hives were the standard until Langstroth invented the moveable frame hive. Vertical (bee gum), horizontal (Bienenkiste), and Skep designs were common. Common features include high levels of reproductive swarming and limited ability to manage the brood nest. The Japanese Garden Hive is an example of a vertically stacked fixed comb hive. Quinby's original hives were fixed comb horizontal hives. He improved them by adding frames when Langstroth's bee space concept became mainstream in the 1860's.

Topbar hives go back in history a few thousand years. The inverted skep with top bars was in common use over 2000 years ago and was the first truly moveable comb hive. Modern topbar hives incorporate horizontal hive shape in the typical Kenya Topbar style. Top bar hives have moveable combs and can be managed to prevent swarming, make reproductive splits, and harvest honey. The original Warre hive was a type of vertically stacked top bar hive. Modern Warre hives are usually equipped with frames.

Moveable frame hives date back 500 years or a tad more. All hives with moveable frames were glued together by the bees using propolis and burr comb until Langstroth conceived the idea for bee space around the frames. Common features of moveable frame hives are that the frames incorporate bee space to prevent attachment to the hive shell. The Jackson Horizontal Hive is a good example of a frame based hive adapted for tropical agriculture. If I were beekeeping in Africa, this is the design I would use. The Dadant, Langstroth, British National, 14 X 12, etc. are among the most popular hive designs today.


Cassette based management should be mentioned because several hive designs incorporate the concept to some degree. When honey storage space can be added a box at a time as with Langstroth and similar designs, that is one form of cassette management. When this concept is extended to the brood area, a hive can be managed by moving one or more of the brood boxes. Langstroth deeps that are reversed in spring to stimulate brood rearing are an example of cassette based mangement. When 8 frame medium Langstroth type boxes are the only size hive body used, they can easily be managed by the box and therefore are a cassette system. The Perrone hive is a type of fixed comb Cassette hive. The key difference that defines cassette management is that the brood nest and honey storage are managed by the box, and is not restricted solely to moving individual frames. Most horizontal hive designs such as the Layens are incapable of cassette management by design. They always have to be managed one frame at a time and honey is harvested one frame at a time. The key advantage of incorporating cassette design into hive elements is the ability to harvest honey by the box instead of by the frame.


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## kilocharlie

SiWolKe said:


> I need help!
> My frames in my square dadant boxes have wide top bars so the spaces between are very narrow ( one bee space) and keep the bees from using the supers on top.
> At least one hive was isolated from stores in winter because of that, the cluster was not mobile enough to cross the wide bars.
> 
> Any ideas how to put up with this? ...


SiWolKe - You may notice that Fusion_power is using end bars that are only 1.240 inch (31.5 mm). This combined with 5.1mm foundation wax is what gives him the 2 weeks earlier brood population boost.

Your frame top bars are going to need to be in line with the side bar width or a bit smaller. You have a few options, among them: 1) cutting existing bars (I'd try to use a bullnose hand plane); 2) swapping out frames with better geometry allowing the bees to draw out combs over time; or 3) cutting combs out of the existing frames and wiring them into new frames of the corrected geometry (I personally would not use this last option).

Still another option is making a jig that clamps two frames together and drilling two holes between the gaps, then cutting away the wood between the 1/2-holes so as to increase the beespace between the frames as they are. Again, I'd use the bullnose plane to remove the wood between the 1/2-holes. You'll need a VERY STABLE workpiece holder if the combs are still attached while drilling and planing.


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## gww

SiW


> I need help!
> My frames in my square dadant boxes have wide top bars so the spaces between are very narrow ( one bee space) and keep the bees from using the supers on top.
> At least one hive was isolated from stores in winter because of that, the cluster was not mobile enough to cross the wide bars.
> 
> Any ideas how to put up with this? ...


I am very new as you know. If it were me and if the combs were drawn out, I would just remove one comb and give a small space between each frame and then for new boxes, I would fix frames that are not in use. Maby this would make covering the comb harder for the bees and not be good but is the least amount of work on you to midigate your situation. Then again, it could just be bad advice from a newby.
Cheers
gww


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## DerTiefster

I set up one long-frame (double-medium, made custom sidebars only to use standard boxes/frames otherwise) brood box last year. I put an otherwise unremarkable swarm from my backyard colonies into it and stacked medium supers onto it. I didn't try to take any honey from it last year. That colony is my most populous this spring, with the 12-7/8" frames packed with brood in the center 5 frames of a 10-frame box. That alone, the sight of more than a 1 ft square of solid brood, might motivate some to test such a colony geometry. Last week the state apiarist inspector, upon looking at frame after frame coming out of the box, said few words. Some I recall were, "I wasn't sure when that frame was going to end." Others included, "That's impressive."

I'm a hobbyist and can play with this. I'm indebted to Dar Jones for the information in this thread and others, as well as to others who contributed information here and in scattered other threads and PMs. If I can get around my tablesaw problem (it quit), I'll be making more side bars and will start two more of these colonies.

What I cobbled together is so close to standard bits and pieces, requiring only special side bars, that taking them back to standard layout would not involve much loss even of comb. I used over-under paired plastic medium foundation with an inch-plus gap that the bees filled in. Sorry I don't have pics in hand. I didn't think to take a camera. May do that tomorrow.

I'm tempted to try the square layout, because as ODFranks points out somewhere, a simple 1x4 would block the extra area so rectangular Langstroth supers could be used over it. It seems inviting to orient a QE across the brood box frames. It would likely be easy to get eggs on the bottom portions of the next box of frames for hobbyist splits and QC generation by putting the QE up one box higher. I like the follower option for the bottom box, requiring only separating the frames a bit to do the appealingly simple single-box, several-frame inspections others describe for such exceedingly deep frames. I left the open band at the middle of the frame when mounting foundation so that if the bees needed to pass from frame to frame in winter, they could go through the centers rather than having to go the long way 'round. They didn't have to do that here, this winter.

Michael


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## kilocharlie

I'm in the process of building 4 of the big MSJD hives now. I'll get some pictures up soon. Only mistake so far was making the top bars a bit too wide - there has to be beespace between them so they can access the honey supers above the broodnest.


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## little_john

Fusion_power said:


> [...]
> Single Cavity hives provide a single cavity intended for brood and honey storage. Brood nest and honey management is rudimentary at best. Honey is harvested from a defined area either at the top or back of the hive. Single cavity hives can be oriented vertically or horizontally as exemplified by the Bee Gum, Bienenekiste, and Skep. A general feature of single cavity hives is volume between 4000 and 8000 cubic inches. Virtually all Single Cavity hives rely on reproductive swarming for increase.
> [..]
> Fixed comb hives were the standard until Langstroth invented the moveable frame hive.


You may wish to update your information to include the A-Z Hive, which is a fixed-volume (i.e. single-cavity) vertical hive with movable frames, the origins of which can be found in the Standerbeute, a movable frame design of Baron Berlepsch which pre-dated Langstroth's invention by a few months. 

Movable frames themselves were first invented by Petro Prokopovych in 1814, which significantly pre-dates Langstroth.

LJ


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## Michael Bush

Huber wrote about the movable frame hives he was using in a letter to Bonnet in 1789. Dzierzon wrote about movable frame hives he was using in 1845. Langstroth says he read both of them. I don't think Langstroth ever claimed to have invented the movable frame hive.


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## little_john

Michael Bush said:


> Huber wrote about the movable frame hives he was using in a letter to Bonnet in 1789. *Dzierzon wrote about movable frame hives he was using in 1845.* Langstroth says he read both of them. I don't think Langstroth ever claimed to have invented the movable frame hive.


Dzierzon used movable *comb* hives, but not frames (afaik). If memory serves, Langstroth never claimed to have discovered the bee-space either - in US Patent 9300 he certainly mentions the 3/8" spacing within the text, but makes no claim at the end of the Patent for having discovered this.
I think his great contribution was to combine the hanging frame and the bee-space, as Berlepsch's frames were spaced too far apart, with predictable results.
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> Movable frames themselves were first invented by Petro Prokopovych in 1814, which significantly pre-dates Langstroth.
> 
> LJ


Prokopovich and Dzierzon hives.


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## GregB

Fusion_power said:


> It all breaks down to variants of 3 basic hive designs and 3 ways of managing those designs. ............* Bees have a natural inclination to work vertically which is stymied by the horizontal hive. *....


This statement here assumes a shallow horizontal hive. For example, single level Langstroth frames.

However, deep horizontal hives are equivalent to at least double-deep Langstroth hives with a single comb span all way through top to bottom.
The bees work *each* comb all way top to bottom in a vertical fashion.

Pasting my own example again.
Notice, significant honey area on the top and brood area on the bottom - the same single comb.
Downward construction was not terminated by any artificial obstacle (frame or floor). 
Bees chose to stop themselves.







Indeed, shallow hives are not able to provide for natural bee inclination to work vertically.


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## little_john

GregV said:


> Prokopovich and Dzierzon hives.
> View attachment 40421


Greg - that's a basic Stander Hive unit, not perhaps the best example of Dzierzon's hives, and says nothing about his opinion regarding framed-hives. (He was very much a Top Bar beekeeper ...)

Here are a couple of quotes from Dzierzon's 'Rational Beekeeping', 1882:


> [...] colonies generally winter rather badly in frame-hives. It is, therefore, not advisable to insert frames in the "brood-nest [...] p.63
> 
> There is nothing better in the proper brood-nest than simple bars or frames, *open below*, which offer no limit or hindrance to the bees in lengthening their combs nor to the queen in the appropriation of cells. p.116


With regard to his hives - there is a whole range of hives shown within his book, but perhaps the most representative of these is the Twin-Stock, the design of which was awarded a first prize:








'best
LJ


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## dpula2

i thought that if bees do not have enough space they will swarm. you are saying no more than 7 dadant frames for brood per hive, which seems too little. And also, how do you put the honey frames at an angle so the bees could climb on them?


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## dpula2

but don't the bees need pollen frame to feed larva in the broodnest? I thought bees will use this pollen frame later in fall when pollen is scares to feed young that will be going to the winter?


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## rolftonbees

Wow, interesting thread. I think equipment design depends on the beekeeper more than the bees. If the keeper cannot work efficiently the bees will suffer, anaconda or worse. Any gains made in honey increase, will be overshadowed by disease, losses and collapses if the keeper cannot manage the colonies in the equiptment.

That being said, people are different. Climates and terrains are different. Equiptment costs and labor investment are two different axis on a grid and those lines/curves interest differently depending on the variables of each keepers circumstances. 

I had ample money to ramp up with equiptment up front. Others do not and might compensate with labor intensive building of woodware. 

I am 5,2" and weight as much as a deep and a medium full of stores. I work on a steep slope with a flattened strip where the hive stands are. I have a week knee I am mindful of. I dont want to attempt to lift a large square deep even if it doubles my yield the first year. 

I also do t want to leave honey in multiple supers stacked high even if that is somehow more efficient. I can only more a superb at a time so I spin it and take those frames and trade them with capped frames. I trade a couple frames at a time from the second super up all summer long. This prevents lifting supers above my optimum leverage point, and saves my back and shoulders. 

So I invest labor to prevent injury and select my equipment accordingly. I should have all my stuff paid off this year and start making profit next. It took four years of selling honey to clear up my initial investment and the yearly add ons. I guess next year I can start paying myself.


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## BernhardHeuvel

In a deep Brother Adam hive (12 deep Dadant frames...) you reduce the number of brood combs and cells, to avoid massive swarming. Yes, it is counter-intuitive. But you need to try and experience it, to fully understand. 

More brood doesn't necessary mean more bees. If you want to produce a lot of bees, an easy way to do this, is, to get those bees older. If more bees get older, the total number of the bee population per hive grows bigger. Because if less bees die off every day, the same amount of emerging young bees produce an overall bigger population with bees, that get older. It is a little like that chess board and rice thing. 

Newer studies showed, that bees immediately age quicker when caring for emerging brood. Open brood and larvae feeding doesn't change much of their life expectancy. But feeding of emerging young bees does significantly reduce the life expectancy. 

There are a couple of ways to achieve the goal, getting more bees older. Firstly, of course the obvious thing to do, is to remove capped brood from the hive. The oldtimers did this, by swapping young brood against capped brood between weaker and stronger hives. To reduce swarming. 

You don't do that in single queen hives, because it reduces the following honey collection capability, but with double queen hives that is a routine that has to be done every ten days once the hive grew to the height of population, which is mid May here in Germany. 

In single hives all you need to do is to reduce brood combs to a minimum. If you keep the broodnest very compact, you reduce the number of nurse bees that warm the nest, that transport food to the broodnest and actually feed the young bees. 

The queen is that individual queen. She doesn't lay much more in a large broodnest with many broodcombs as in an adapted broodnest. Adapted means, the broodnest is optimally adapted to the queens physical ability to lay eggs. If you provide the optimal space for her to lay, she doesn't and can't (!) lay more than she is physically able to do. 

If you provide more brood combs than needed, the same amount of brood is stretched all over the enlarged brood nest. With pollen, nectar in between. The bees don't die from this, but what does it to the bees? 

Most importantly the number of nurse bees needed increases. My experience showed that it doubles the number of nurse bees in a large stack of brood boxes. That is because space and time increases as the broodnest is increased. 

Usually in a hive one nurse bee cares for four cells. So a broodnest with 40,000 brood cells needs 10,000 nurse bees. In an expanded broodnest you need 20,000 nurse bees. By adapting the broodnest to the optimal size for that particular individual queen (in a square Dadant hive, Brother Adam hive you use a follower board to do the adaption), so by doing the adaption, you free 10,000 bees from the task of nursing. 

By freeing them from nursing you achieve several things. Firstly they do other tasks, like housekeeping, brood hygiene, ...and of course honey processing! A hive with an adapted broodnest is much more capable of processing honey. And this is why you get so wonderful results with the adapted brood nest system. 

Secondly by freeing them from nursing about 10,000 more bees get older...and this way you build up a huge bee population compared to an enlarged broodnest (two or more brood boxes..). 

These are the main effects. 

Another effect is, that the body fits the Bien. Means, in nature the broodnest growths perfectly adapted to the bee colonies ability to build comb. The size of the bee body fits perfectly to the bee colony. The bee body growth according to the queens ability to lay eggs and build up the colony. I think, almost all living things live in a body that fits them perfectly. 

In my experience, if the bee body (brood nest) fits the queen's performance perfectly, the bees are much(!) less eager to swarm. If the queen and the broodnest do not fit to each other, the bees want to replace the queen with one that masters the broodnest. 

In beekeeping we enlarge the body to get much more honey. That is ok, as long as we expand the body in the honey boxes above a queen excluder and keep the broodnest adapted to the queen. It is a misconception to think, that more brood combs means more brood means more bees. Of course up to a certain threshold that is true: up to the queens laying performance. But if you go over that, there is no real advantage or artificial increase in brood. The queen is that individual queen. She physically can lay a certain amount of eggs per day. She can't lay more than she can. There is a limit. 

If you stay within that limit with your brood combs, the bees feel that the queen masters her broodnest, the bee body. The bees are much more satisfied with their queen. Satisfied workers means much more eager working bees. They simply are in a good mood. Less swarms and significantly more honey will result. 

The buildup of bee population is phenomenal. Because of all the bees that don't nurse, they grew older. And this leads to more workers, leads to better fulfilling all the other tasks as said before. Housekeeping, brood hygiene, honey processing. 

Once you understand this bee-o-logy of the bees' nest, you can play with it. I think, there is a great future for the adapted broodnest. More and more people understand the concept and have great results with their bees. I think this is a milestone. And of course, you can use the very same biology to do special things like 2 queen hives. 

Best regards,

Bernhard


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## BernhardHeuvel

Some impressions of perfectly adapted brood combs. Deep Dadant frames in the pictures.









Pollen and nectar is reduced to a necessary minimum. Nectar goes up to the honey boxes. Pollen is stored in single cells in between the broodnest (short ways to the nurses) and on one outer comb. Bees prefer fresh pollen for nursing over stored pollen, as a study showed. So let them use fresh pollen.

















The results are strong hives, less work and more honey. More peace for the bees. 


















With the Brother Adam hive we harvest about 3-4 times more per hive than the national average. :thumbsup:


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## bkcrrtnps

I've been using Dadant deep hives for 3 years and I'll never go back. I also have built some horizontal hives out of 2x to fit my jumbo frames. I use these to overwinter 6 of my colonies and they are always the strongest coming out of winter bar none. I have read through this thread twice over the last 2 years and always pick up on something new.


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## kilocharlie

Bernard - Could you please list the differences between the Brother Adam hive and the Modified Square Jumbo Dadant (If there are any...I suspect they are different) ?

Thank you!


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## Fusion_power

Bernhard may not see this but I can give the differences.

The original Dadant hives were a bit over an inch longer and carried longer frames as a result. They were rectangular and over they years were trialed with different numbers of frames finally settling on 9 though 7, 10, and 11 frame variants are also documented. It is important to understand that Dadant's hive was modified from Quinby. If you read Quinby's book, you will see that he valued the front to back movement of a colony of bees as they expanded in spring and contracted in summer. This is the reason he used a rectangular box in the first place.

The modified Dadant hive sometimes called Dadant Blatt is a rectangular hive with the same length as a Langstroth hive i.e. 18 5/16 inches internal measure. This hive is popular in some parts of Europe. While I found a few variations, the most common size holds 11 frames with 1 1/2 inch center to center spacing. The key reason for changing to the modified is because Langstroth frames can be placed into this hive easing the process of converting from Langstroth to Dadant dimensions. An added benefit is that shallow frames for supers can be used for honey storage in either Langstroth or Dadant boxes.

The Square Dadant hive is sometimes called the Brother Adam hive because he used it as the best hive for his conditions. It was originally published by Dadant in several journals in the early 1900's. Brother Adam read of the hive and gave it a trial in the 1920's. Without Brother Adam's use of the hive and publication of advantages, the square Dadant would have been lost to history long ago. Key features are a square box with 18 5/16 internal measurements for length and width and depth of 11 5/8 inches accommodating 12 frames with 1 1/2 inch spacing.

I am using 14 frames with 1 1/4 inch spacing in a square Dadant box. This has the advantage of improving spring buildup because a given size cluster can cover more comb surface. Faster buildup would normally trigger earlier swarming. To control swarming, I take a 3 or 4 frame split from each overwintered colony roughly 2 weeks before they are ready to swarm. Under the conditions Brother Adam worked, 12 frame was arguably the best format. For my conditions, I'm happy with 14 frames in a square deep box.


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## Knisely

Bernard Heuvel, can you provide links to scientific articles or other written materials that describe the removal of mature, capped brood and the resulting effects on bee longevity and honey harvest size? I'm fascinated by the concept and hope that this topic has been rigorously investigated and that a more detailed description of the technique and the outcomes in a controlled experiment will permit me to implement this in my colonies next year. 

I will confess to frustration with my attempts to build colonies that are very strong in the spring for our main nectar flow but which are still not interested in swarming. It will be easier to remove frames with capped brood than to inspect every frame for swarm cells, and if (somewhat counterintuitively) this permits increased worker survival and a longer period during which they are honey gathering, it'll be a boon to my hive management approach.


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## kilocharlie

Thank you so much, Dar. 

So, I am essentially building Fusion-power Modified Square Brother Adam / Jumbo Dadant beehives  ...a mouthful, but gotta give credit where it is due. Not to mention that the ones I'm building are observer hives. I'll still abbreviate them "MSJD" hives. 

The last one I built had a square queen excluder, a square, Fat Bee Man-modified Miller hive top feeder, and some of the best cleat handles I've ever made - the cross section of the cleat handles was parallelogrammed about 20 degrees for excellent grip, and 1-1/2 inches wide, screwed from the inside and glued. When you make Big Box Beehives, good grip is a good idea.

I'm working on a new concept that should really kick this thing in a good direction, and my table saw restoration is coming along quite well.


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## Robert Holcombe

It is an achievable goal "Knisely" as after 4 years of constant change and learning I simply fell into a near perfect year this year. I now have 9 strong hives, hundreds of pounds of Spring, Summer and Fall honey. I have mutt queens, a 4 year old queen, Saskatraz and New World Carniolan queens. One hive with a New World Carniolan queen is showing extraordinary Varroa mite resistance. But at the same time I am fighting a war, treating, against a mass mite migration spike in other (robbing?) hives. But back to the thread, "Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages". 

I find the discussions narrowly focused on queens, brood, swarming, volume, surface area, frame manipulation and honey production. Somehow I do not think geometry drives or dictates "success". Variables such as local environment impact, water, temperature, humidity, carbon dioxide, snow, wind, heat and mass transfer, light, numerous pathogen, feeding/nutrition and quite simply the bees inherent ability, when given the chance, to manage multiple environmental variables within a hive without human interference. I find it difficult to talk about hive design and not consider all these variablesand likely unmentioned other variables. I think a hive's prime requirements are conservation of energy and environmental protection to suit a local environment. I also think if a claim is made it should be quantifiable, have "numbers" to back it up. Personally, I am focused on defining "backyard hive requirements for bees and an old guy".


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## nguiver

Can anyone tell me when bottom entrances first appeared, was it in Langstroth's 1852 patent and as Filipe Salbany has researched, its the most illogical set up relying on meticulous attention by the beekeeper to maintain the entrance size to avoid chilling the brood at night while making it large enough during the day. www.beespace.xyz. His Hive "Intrance" was launched at the UK's National Honeyshow last week with rave reviews. I'm in negotiations with him to get the distribution rights.


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## little_john

nguiver said:


> Can anyone tell me when bottom entrances first appeared ...


Somewhere between 20 and 5 million years ago.

"Distribution rights" ... for a hole in a box ? I'm clearly in the wrong job. 
LJ


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## little_john

Man-made beehives, pre-Langstroth:

Christopher Wren (1632-1723): stack of octagonal boxes with three entrance holes drilled near the bottom of each.

Warder 'Monarchy of Bees' (1716): plans described for a structure consisting of 6 hives, each with it's own bottom entrance, fitted with a slider to help prevent robbing.

Keys 'Practical Bee Master' (1780): bottom entrance.

LJ


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## nguiver

little_john said:


> Man-made beehives, pre-Langstroth:
> 
> Christopher Wren (1632-1723): stack of octagonal boxes with three entrance holes drilled near the bottom of each.
> 
> Warder 'Monarchy of Bees' (1716): plans described for a structure consisting of 6 hives, each with it's own bottom entrance, fitted with a slider to help prevent robbing.
> 
> Keys 'Practical Bee Master' (1780): bottom entrance.
> 
> LJ


Hi

So what are the benefits of a bottom entrance considering the fact I have to go to the apiary every night and close it up and then back every morning to open it up again, otherwise i am chilling the brood.


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## little_john

nguiver said:


> Hi
> 
> So what are the benefits of a bottom entrance considering the fact I have to go to the apiary every night and close it up and then back every morning to open it up again, otherwise i am chilling the brood.


Benefits ? You asked about 'when' (not 'why') - so that's what my replies focused upon. I really wouldn't want to be drawn into a top vs bottom entrance argument.

But - FWIW - I use bottom entrances (so-called 'warm way') AND Open Mesh Floors, both of which stay open all the time, and I never see chilled brood - that is, providing the colony is of a reasonable size. My nuc boxes have solid floors with one or two 22mm dia. holes (warm-way) which stay open 24/7.

I do have a couple of hives running 'cold-way' (i.e. entrances in the ends, not sides) and although these also have Open Mesh Floors (open 24/7/365) they are fitted with slatted racks above the mesh with the 1/4 to 1/3rd of the rack surface nearest to the entrance being 'solid', not slatted - precisely to deflect any draughts coming in from the entrance. 
LJ


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## nguiver

little_john said:


> Somewhere between 20 and 5 million years ago.
> 
> "Distribution rights" ... for a hole in a box ? I'm clearly in the wrong job.
> LJ


I think there is a little more to it than the hole .. hey ho .. we will see.


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## gnor

nguiver said:


> Hi
> So what are the benefits of a bottom entrance considering the fact I have to go to the apiary every night and close it up and then back every morning to open it up again, otherwise i am chilling the brood.


Seely found that bees in trees preferred a bottom entrance about 2 square inches. Gravity helps them clear dead bees, wax cappings, and so on.
They have avoided chilling the brood for hundreds of millennia, so they are pretty good at it.
In Summer, my entrance is 13/16 x 14-1/2 (11.75 sq in). I add a reducer in Fall when I see less bees flying or I see a lot of robbing. Other than that, I let the bees manage things inside the hive.


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## GregB

gnor said:


> Seely found that* bees in trees preferred a bottom entrance* about 2 square inches. .......


According to his latest book - this has been revised.
I have exact page to show if asked.
This is not widely advertised either (just kinda in passing).


He now got better at finding the wild bee nests high above the ground.
Turned out - *his earliest numbers were biased towards the low-placed nests with bottom entrances.*
Back then he could not find the nests high above too well (now days he find them well, no matter how high - by bee-lining).


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## nguiver

gnor said:


> Seely found that bees in trees preferred a bottom entrance about 2 square inches. Gravity helps them clear dead bees, wax cappings, and so on.
> They have avoided chilling the brood for hundreds of millennia, so they are pretty good at it.
> In Summer, my entrance is 13/16 x 14-1/2 (11.75 sq in). I add a reducer in Fall when I see less bees flying or I see a lot of robbing. Other than that, I let the bees manage things inside the hive.


Hi Thanks for that .. I suppose that up in trees there is less problems with rodents, and as far as detritus in concerned how do they clear it in feral colonies where the entrances may be anywhere? perhaps "help" is a human preconception. Deep litter in live stock is seen as muck to be cleaned out by some and a heat source by others. So as far as chilling brood is concerned is there any evidence of large bottom entrances in feral colonies? and in managed hives perhaps we should give them a box full of holes and let them decide what they want, propolise the rest and not impose something on them that they keep having to adapt to, every time we decide to change it.

What a facinating animal to study ... the human.


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## crofter

I am surprised thet Little John has not taken you to task yet. His colonies survive very well with a wide open hive bottom. It would be fatal though in winter if used with the large upper ventilation that works in other systems.

Very small lower entrance with no upper ventilation is also fatal if some circumstance plugs that small bottom entrance. Ask me how I know about that.

We have to be careful with the vision we get peering through a knothole.


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## nguiver

crofter said:


> I am surprised thet Little John has not taken you to task yet. His colonies survive very well with a wide open hive bottom. It would be fatal though in winter if used with the large upper ventilation that works in other systems.
> 
> Very small lower entrance with no upper ventilation is also fatal if some circumstance plugs that small bottom entrance. Ask me how I know about that.
> 
> We have to be careful with the vision we get peering through a knothole.


Hi Frank

i have 3 groups total 47 colonies in 5 acreas. One in amongst the trees, one facing south full aspect sun trap and one east part in the trees. I think we all agree that every location is unique and has its own way of surviving, or not. Pesticides are our main issue which we are addressing.


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## crofter

Local conditions. For certain... I have no wax moths or small hive beetles and the Carni style bee I have shows close to zero inclination to swarm. We can get up to 3 feet accumulations of snow and approaching -40 F is not uncommon. I effectively lost most of my colonies last winter from apparent being suffocated by heavy snow and an unusual heavy rain with a quick return to freezing. I had only lower entrances which was a new thing to try. The warm trapped bubble at the top was a convincing image! I bought in.
The previous 6 winters with 6 or 8 hives I had zero winter losses. The autopsies did not point to any of the other typical winter loss causes.

This winter they have a 1" hole below the handle in the top brood box and a half by three quarter hole in the feed shim. Most of the colonies have partially propolized the feed shim holes to one or two bees width. Bottom entrance with mouse guard is roughly 3/8 by 3 inches.


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## little_john

crofter said:


> I am surprised thet Little John has not taken you to task yet. His colonies survive very well with a wide open hive bottom.


LOL ...

I've actually been more focused on this claim of bees *preferring* to live in cavities with a bottom entrance. I'd suggest that early hive designers simply copied this particular feature, and many of us have stayed with it - essentially because it works. If it didn't work, then I'd be the first to change to something better. 

But *preferring* implies that the bees had made a choice, and one can only talk in terms of a choice having been made if some nearby cavities with different entrance positions had also been identified, with bees having refused to live in them - which of course Seeley wasn't able to do - or anyone else, afaik.

Far more likely, imo, is that tree cavities represent rare and valuable real estate in the Natural World, especially as other creatures also value them - and so in practice bees occupy whatever cavities they can find.

But how come so many cavities have entrances near their bottom ? The answer is deceptively simple. Cavities are formed by the rotting of heart wood following traumatic damage to the tree bark. This can occur either near the tree's base (from forest fires or deer), or higher up from limbs having been snapped-off by neighbouring trees falling and striking them as they crash to the ground.

With damage near ground level, rising damp from the earth causes the heartwood to rot, and with limb damage at height the remnants of the limb act as an efficient rain-catcher, initially causing rot of that limb, with this rot then continuing into the trunk itself. Following damage at ground level, it's obvious that the entrance will be at the bottom of the cavity which then forms, but with limb damage the entrance position which develops is slightly less obvious.

The organisms (bacteria, fungi etc) which cause rotting of wood thrive in a damp environment, but not one which is soaking wet. This can readily be seen when wooden fence posts are driven into wet ground - where the maximum rate of rotting will always be observed close to the soil's surface - for these are aerobic organisms (i.e. they require oxygen to live). Hence back in our developing tree cavity, maximum rot will be occurring at it's upper surface, and far less down at it's bottom - so that the original point of entry appears to move downwards as the cavity itself develops in an upward direction.

This tree cavity formation mechanism is described on many arborist's sites - I didn't make this stuff up - honestly ! 

Another point I'd like to mention is that the diagram on Seeley's paper which shows a single relatively small entrance ... was only ever meant to be *representative* of what he found - it was never meant to be a blueprint upon which to base hive designs. Tree cavities result from random traumatic damage and each one will be unique - these cavities are 'Natural' in the sense that they occur in Nature, but are totally 'un-Natural' in the sense that very few trees will ever develop such cavities.

Finally, a rather sobering description (perhaps ?) of a tree cavity by ROB Manley:


> Of course it is far better not to keep bees in places that are not exactly right, but needs must when the devil drives, and bee farmers find themselves driven that way more often than is exactly convenient. So if you have bees so situated, take a lot of bits of wood one-eighth of an inch thick, or less, section wood will do, or matchsticks, or even some two-inch wire nails, place one of these small objects under each corner of the inner cover, and your hives will usually keep dry enough. This question of dissipation of the moisture thrown off by the bees is a very important one; much more so, I believe, than packing and double-walled hives, for in my opinion bees do not need to be insulated, packed or ****ered up in any way in Britain. After all, they winter perfectly well in chimneys, roofs, and all sorts of cold, draughty places. I remember one lot in an old pollard willow when I was beginning to take an interest in bees. The combs were all of four feet long, the tree was split from top to bottom, and the combs could be seen in half a dozen places. It had been there for many years, the farm men said, and might have been there much longer had I not come along.
> Again, I saw some of Madoc's hives in Norfolk one winter, when woodpeckers had made large holes. In some cases the holes were big enough to put your fist into, and the clustered bees could be seen through them, but the bees wintered all right, I believe. I have seen bees come through the winter well when housed in old cracked boxes that were about as airtight as a colander ...


And - for the benefit of 'Top Entrance' beekeepers ...


> Maybe I ought to say a word about top entrances for wintering. The trouble is that I have never tried them. I'm always intending to; but when the time comes we are all so dreadfully busy that it gets put off until next year. All I can say is that it seems well established that bees winter well with these entrances arranged at the top of the hive, combs do not get mouldy and hives keep dry and sweet. I must try some - next year. The difficulty seems to me to lie in the changing over, at the time of putting bees into winter shape, from the bottom to the top entrance, and in the reversing back again in the spring ...
> *ROB Manley, 'Honey Farming', 1945.*


LJ


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## Juhani Lunden

crofter said:


> Local conditions. For certain... I have no wax moths or small hive beetles and the Carni style bee I have shows close to zero inclination to swarm. We can get up to 3 feet accumulations of snow and approaching -40 F is not uncommon. I effectively lost most of my colonies last winter from apparent being suffocated by heavy snow and an unusual heavy rain with a quick return to freezing. I had only lower entrances which was a new thing to try. The warm trapped bubble at the top was a convincing image! I bought in.
> The previous 6 winters with 6 or 8 hives I had zero winter losses. The autopsies did not point to any of the other typical winter loss causes.
> 
> This winter they have a 1" hole below the handle in the top brood box and a half by three quarter hole in the feed shim. Most of the colonies have partially propolized the feed shim holes to one or two bees width. Bottom entrance with mouse guard is roughly 3/8 by 3 inches.


In heavy winter conditions it works well to have wide bottom entrance or whole bottom open. The most deadly set-up is one smallish bottom entrance. 

I have entrances both ways in winter (=entrance is double size in winter compared to summer) and my bees have consumption just like in this article. https://www.beeculture.com/winter-management/

Abundance of bottom ventilation does not make bees consume more than nearly optimum. 

"E.B. Wedmore calculated the amount of honey required to overwinter a measured population of bees in his influential 1947 book, The Ventilation of Bee-Hives. Wedmore converted the caloric content of honey to watts and then using wattage he calculated that the *basic needs are about three lbs. per month between mid-October and mid-April. *Therefore, if Wedmore is correct, and the primary Winter honey requirements of an average population of bees are *in the range of ~21 lbs.*, it seems like *our need to provision Winter stores at four times that amount,* may indicate something about the burden on bees to generate additional heat beyond their basic needs. One obvious reason is the loss of heat by an abundance of added ventilation.
For many decades, beekeepers have devised ways to use the inner cover’s conveniently placed Porter bee escape hole to ventilate all that warm moist air, without regard for the consequences of lost heat.
The next question is how much of our current practice of provisioning 60-100 lbs of honey per wintering colony, then providing supplemental fondant, and in some cases ending with the need for emergency food, is being driven by removing lots of heat the bees must replace?
There’s no question that ventilation is needed, but I think if we could refine our understanding of how much is needed and when, modify our boxes to direct the convective flows away from the cluster’s center, and increase insulation around the Winter cluster, we could help our bees live healthier, lessen the burden of Winter provisioning, and reduce Winter losses."


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## little_john

Juhani Lunden said:


> "There’s no question that ventilation is needed, but I think if we could refine our understanding of how much is needed and when, modify our boxes to direct the convective flows away from the cluster’s center, and increase insulation around the Winter cluster, we could help our bees live healthier, lessen the burden of Winter provisioning, and reduce Winter losses."


There's another issue which keeps occurring to me, although it would need a lot more thinking about before any trials were undertaken ...

... and that is the whole issue of ventilating to eliminate moisture. Who says that bees need to live in a nice warm *dry* snug cavity ? For many millions of years bees have survived by living in tree cavities, which are formed by the rotting of wood, which only ever takes place when that wood is kept moist - either from rainfall, or from rising damp. The bees then carve away that rotten wood, smear the remaining surface with propolis, and begin drawing their wax combs onto wood which is now largely protected from further rotting.

So why has evolution chosen these two materials: wax and propolis, both of which are water repellant, rather than (say) the paper nests which wasps employ ? Could it just be that evolution has 'chosen' these in order to survive within a very damp environment ? There is of course the additional requirement of effective food storage which the wasp doesn't have, so it can't be that simple - but I do sometimes wonder if we humans aren't projecting our own environmental requirements onto those of other creatures.
LJ


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## Robert Holcombe

I have read and saw a pic showing a PVC pipe vent from the bottom of the hive up to provide a vent to the void that normally forms under the snow. I would guess it was a CO2 issue as it is heavier than air. I have no idea how much diffusion would occur via the pipe, how CO2 saturates the snow - assume bigger diameter pipe the better. I rarely have that kind of issue of any magnitude. It happens often here but with much smaller amounts of snow. I run a no-top-vent, insulated hive configuration and a screened bottom vent + reduced exit with good results. I call it the "living bubble" controlled by the bees.


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## GregB

Juhani Lunden said:


> ........ [/B]Therefore, if Wedmore is correct, and the primary Winter honey requirements of an average population of bees are *in the range of ~21 lbs.*, it seems like *our need to provision Winter stores at four times that amount,* may indicate something about the burden on bees to generate additional heat beyond their basic needs. One obvious reason is the loss of heat by an abundance of added ventilation.........


At least in the US (with the abundance of the commercial Italian bee lineage mixed in, and oversized Langstroth equipment used) - wintering exclusively large clusters is both a problem and a necessity (try wintering in 3 deep/10-frame Lang tower).
Here is a rough attempt to show the problem numerically:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...-wintering-cluster-size&p=1764593#post1764593

People around me routinely advice to have 100-120-140 lbs of stores to winter.
They try to winter huge clusters for no obvious benefit.
Just how they are told to do by the experts.

I contend my strongest bees winter fine on about 50 lbs of honey.
Reduced to about 8 jumbo frames (similar to 10-frame Lang; single box for everything - bees and food).
No more is needed for successful wintering - not frames, not honey, not bees.
More of these things are needed in spring and summer, not in winter.


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## Fusion_power

I live in a very humid climate so can answer LJ's speculation about moisture. It will absolutely kill a colony of bees if too much builds up inside the hive. I tried to keep bees with just a small bottom entrance (3 inches by 3/8 inch high) when I started keeping bees 50 years ago. The result was abject failure with loads of nosema, mold covering the combs and woodenware, and bees that either were very weak or already dead by the time I realized something was wrong.

Here in the Southeastern U.S. the most critical winter requirement is to have enough ventilation to prevent excess moisture buildup in the hive. It does not take much. Just a tiny crack near the top of the hive will let most of the moisture out without too much heat escaping. No, I don't use matchsticks. For years, I used a notch cut into the hive cover that was 3/4 inch wide by 3/8 inch high. For small weak colonies or nucs, I close the notch with a small block of wood. They don't need the ventilation. Strong colonies do.


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## Robert Holcombe

Ventilation or moisture controll is a difficult issue to discuss. Dereck Mitchell has done a nice job of critiquing E.B. Wedmore's conclusions which are based on one thermometer reading that a hive needs a top ventilation hole. He repeated the experiment with multiple thermocouples. I have not read Wedmore's minimum consumption calculation but I find nearly all related literature about metabolic consumption descriptions deficient in explaining heat transfer boundary conditions (which should include fluid dynamics) when collecting or publishing data. I have worked hard on trying understanding this internal environmental issue. I have also conducted testing using very crude but seemingly effective sensors on a number of hives for two winters. I find a 5-sided insulated (R10) hive with no top vent supports bee activity in winter quite well ( I am in a humid coastal location that also goes below 0 F occasionally, single digits often. I see data showing bees regulating hive top bubble temperatures from 50 - 60 F but raising it in high humidity, cold rainy weather significantly. Given a hive design which supports their heat generating ability( equaling or exceeding heat loss) , they seem to be able to control the upper internal surfaces above the dew point. I seem, with crude sensing especially humidity sensors, to have measured controlled temperature - RH regulation over time. I am repeating my efforts this winter now that I have some clues. I believe the bottom of the hive provides a vapor diffusion zone ( screened bottom board and entrance) and a cold condenser, hives sides and possibly empty cells(?) This likely is providing recyclable water (a big plus?). This dta is mostly weakly supported data but provides a hypothesis based on conservation of energy principles, thermodynamics of the water cycle and specifically focused on heat & mass transfer both by the bees and the hive design. I may be smart enough now to design a viable experiment to prove the point(s). The test problem is being able to sense multiple temperature and humidity data at multiple locations within a hive(s) in a short time frame at reasonable cost for a backyard beekeeper.


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## Robert Holcombe

Congratulations on the "treatment free" hives! I'm 50 years into applied engineering going into 5th years of beekeeping. I raise my own bees and some queens but have to treat in the Fall winter.

The "mold" in the hive observation clearly indicate condensed free water. The walls or hardware in the hive were getting too cold, causing condensation. It could be a resultant of weak bees or inability of a large cluster to match heat loss all the time. If the surfaces do not fall below the dew point base on internal hive's surfaces you will not have condensation. 

You should see the water collect between my covered boat's inner and outer hulls all winter. I have to leave an open drain plug and raise the bow. There are no bees or honey in there


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## little_john

Fusion_power said:


> I live in a very humid climate so can answer LJ's speculation about moisture. It will absolutely kill a colony of bees if too much builds up inside the hive.


And yet we observe the bees' gluing-up of cracks within a beehive (which would otherwise provide some ventilation) - with their priority always being to seal the topmost area first. And - they can often be observed to have reduced the size of an entrance too. It would appear that their behaviour is directed towards sealing-up their cavity as tight as possible, leaving just the smallest of entrances - i.e. zero passive ventilation.

Yet the amount of water produced by dessication of nectar into honey, and the amount produced as a by-product of honey/sugar metabolism during winter is phenomenal.

How do we square these two observations ? Are we to accept that bees have some kind of inherent 'death-wish' and are hell-bent on suicide - or is there another explanation we're overlooking ?
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> Yet the amount of water produced by dessication of nectar into honey, and the amount produced as a by-product of honey/sugar metabolism during winter is phenomenal.
> 
> How do we square these two observations ? Are we to accept that bees have some kind of inherent 'death-wish' and are hell-bent on suicide - or is there another explanation we're overlooking ?
> LJ


At least in the temperate forest setting, here is a typical wild bee dwelling.
Both observations coexisted beautifully for very long time.
Bees, unfortunate to settle in sub-standard homes simply got terminated (today bees placed in sub-standard homes get propped up by various tweaks).


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## Fusion_power

> How do we square these two observations ?


 Ask the bees. They have never lied to me.


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## crofter

Robert Holcombe said:


> Congratulations on the "treatment free" hives! I'm 50 years into applied engineering going into 5th years of beekeeping. I raise my own bees and some queens but have to treat in the Fall winter.


Robert what is your thoughts regarding possibility that an overabundance of insulation would result in the bees being too warm and therefore not entering the low metabolic state and thus consuming more stores. Other words is there an optimum amount of insulation.

Three colonies I have wrapped have propolized the 1/2 sq. in. hole in the feed rim area down to a hole barely bee diameter. They have also started to reduce the 1" diameter hole at the handle of the upper brood box. I have used some 4" foamboard because it was free, not that I thought that thick was necessary. The upper box is shavings filled and vented.


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## little_john

Fusion_power said:


> I live in a very humid climate ...


My location is 'damp' - i.e. 'humid', but without the heat. This is a turning area alongside my driveway:



So I kill off the moss every 3 or 4 years, but it just keeps coming back. The water table can be as high as 12-18" below ground in Winter - only then then do they turn the drainage pumps on.  
We've had a lot of rain recently and many fields are flooded - the drainage ***** (ditches) are nearly full, and so I'm expecting pumping to start any day now. Good conditions for ducks, geese, frogs ... 
LJ


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## gww

LJ
I don't know how moist it is here but probably not too bad. I hear moister is hard on mites. I have no upper ventilation and a reduced bottom entrance. Two inch foam on the hive top out side the hive and nothing on the walls. I had one hive last year that had water sitting on the plywood under the insulation all year long. How do I know? Because every time I inspected the hive, I would dump about a quart off of it and was too lazy to fix it. It was a design fault of my building of the top.

The bees survived that.

I do say that on flying days early spring that my bees are gathering water hard along with chicken feed till the flows really get going.

I do not know which is best as far as insulation goes but have it rattling around in my brain that there was a study that kinda showed that 2 inch thick hives were producing sicker bees. I know I did not dream this and wish I could find it again and read it again as I am not infallible in my understanding what I read with out reading stuff more then once. 

My belief is that what I am doing is enough for my 5b growing zone though I could not say I could prove what might be best. It does make me wonder about high insulation and then good venting on top of a hive. Seems like one would counter the other. 

I have also read some studies on freezing bees to see what they can take and though I don't remember the particulars, I do remember being impressed with the bees toughness.

These are only my observations in my yard and what I run with and not something that I know and can prove.
Cheers
gww


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## little_john

I don't know either ...

I find it hard to disagree with the need for ventilation, as I rely upon bottom ventilation to ensure winter survival in my own uber-damp environment - and yet at the same time I'm aware that the bees work hard to seal their hives up tight, and that I'm doing something that's unnatural and I'm pretty sure they'd prefer I didn't. But - I don't have an answer to this conflict between what I know works in practice, and how bees are able to survive in the wild without such human assistance.
LJ


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## dudelt

I live in the beautiful Pacific NW that is well known for being extremely rainy and humid throughout the winter. It does not get real cold (freezing temperatures) most of the time and we get very little snow. Thus, moisture is a major issue here. Leaving bottom entrances fully open guarantees mice will move in. Since freezing temperatures is not an issue but moisture is, I have extra large openings in my inner covers that are the exact size for a wide mouth canning jar. It can also be used as a feeding hole. My outer cover has the front vertical edge removed so the excess moisture can easily escape. Throughout the winter I used to see a lot of moisture on top of the inner cover with plenty of mold and mildew. Removing the front side of the outer cover seems to allow the moisture to evaporate outside of the hive much more quickly. Since both the top opening and the bottom entrance are facing the same direction, you do not get a breeze through the hive. I would not recommend this setup for areas that get much colder than here but it has worked very well for me.


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## GregB

dudelt said:


> ...... Leaving bottom entrances fully open *guarantees *mice will move in. ......


Please just stop this.


Wire screening is about free to get (very cheap, at the least).
Very easy to apply too.
Not to forget, just keep the screening in place permanently - and forget it then.

Does not matter if your entrance is fully open - it is screened.


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## gww

Greg
I have 3/8th inch gap on my bottom board. I have not had issues yet of mice getting in my hives during winter. Not saying it will never happen. I have traps with out bees in them that also have 3/8th entrances that I leave out all year. I have had mice chew those entrances bigger as well as chewing holes in the frame rest area and moving in over winter. I do have plenty of mice around (probably more then most) due to leaving chicken feed out all the time.

I don't use mouse guards or screen to curtail the mice, they just don't seem to move in on the hives that have bees in then with the 3/8th gap. Knock on wood of course.
Cheers
gww

Ps Empty hives are also a great draw to the red wasp and I even found a snake in one that had a round hole for the entrance. I had what I think was yellow jackets moving under my warre hive cover.


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## GregB

gww said:


> Greg I have 3/8th inch gap on my bottom board.........


Sure, gww.

Personally, I just don't trust the wood alone.
Those darn mice will eventually chew and squeeze through.
Metal screening everywhere for me 24/7/365.
And move onto other things, forget the mice.


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## Juhani Lunden

GregV said:


> Please just stop this.
> 
> 
> Wire screening is about free to get (very cheap, at the least).
> Very easy to apply too.
> Not to forget, just keep the screening in place permanently - and forget it then.
> 
> Does not matter if your entrance is fully open - it is screened.


I use queen excluder in the hive bottom. Towards the spring it is kind of automatic air conditioning, less air circulation because of dead bees on it.


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## Robert Holcombe

I live on the north eastern seaboard and also have lots of connected days of high humidity, fog, mist and light rain. I have moved a few miles away form the ocean to avoid having mold grow in my shoes but my bees sphere of influence reaches the Atlantic Ocean. 

I went in the opposite direction as you. It is hard to argue success when it works both ways but I do get below 0 F weather and 90+ F days in the summer. No top vent or top exit all year, R10 insulated top all year and R10 side insulation in the winter. I intend to have an insulated hive or two all year in 2020 with no top exit. Oh, I use 12 oz. duck cloth as an inner cover which gets heavily propolized along with my rough sawn, home-made boxes. Bottom board is screened. 

Backing up a bit, I have not notice any house designs trying to control moisture in a manner you describe; drawn cold moist air in the bottom and vent the same or slightly warmer moist air out the top. In fact the home building code is starting to enforce maximum air infiltration requirements. (I do worry about this code requirement and issues like "draw" by a wood stove.) But the DOE advises control by controlling the dew point location and where it occurs in a wall or roof. Hidden in all this are the effects vapor pressure, diffusion and honey bee attempts to control temperature and humidity along with something called "propolis". In the old days we would keep our single pane windows closed, stove on and accumulate wonderful amounts of ice on the inside of the window panes. I would play with it - sometimes it was really thick. Then it would melt and rot the sills. So we would put rolled up towels on the sills ( showing my age). It seems this problem has gone away with careful engineering thermal management and vapor barriers. Even when it is 60 F outside and 98% RH my house stays a nice 70 F and ~50% RH. I just cannot see pumping cold humid air through the house by opening a first floor door and a 2nd floor window. 

I have seen a couple unusual result with 7-10 hives wintering-over the past two years and going through summer. The neatest event was in a late winter Nor'easter and my weather station showed that the temperature at the top of the hive above cluster was below the dew point - raining inside the hive??!!! I went out during a lull and peaked under the insulated cover. The foam insulation joint was leaking on the wind side - Nor'easter wind pressure was pushing water, rain or condensate, in. About a 150 bees were lined up, side by side, taking the water! The inner surface of the top cover surface was mostly dry. I need a better top cover design for wind and rain! I have yet to lose a hive or a bee to "moisture problems" that I could find. I do not find mold inside the hives - anymore - since eliminating the top vent and insulating. I do have one mystery and when I figure it out I will report it - had to do with feeding in the Fall. I I think physics is on my side. Much more to learn about this environmental condition.


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## little_john

Robert Holcombe said:


> [..] I have not notice any house designs trying to control moisture in a manner you describe; [...]  It seems this problem has gone away with careful engineering thermal management and vapor barriers. [...] I think physics is on my side.


I think one needs to be very careful here when making comparisons. Honey-bees are not humans - they have different respiratory systems and, unlike humans, are individually poikilothermic - although not entirely so when functioning as a 'super-organism' - and so are somewhat unique in this regard.

Most sciences are based upon modelling of some kind, and modelling of static systems in general tends to approximate reasonably well - with dynamic modelling of course being far less reliable. And with honey-bees there is the additional complication of the cluster providing both it's own dynamic heat source with it's own dynamic insulation around it - both of which can readily respond intelligently to changing conditions.

I have tried to discuss such biological 'complications' with Derek Mitchell, but as a theoretical physicist he is unable to embrace them.

I think what I am trying to communicate is that a pure physics approach can only ever be a monochromatic perception of a rich and multi-coloured tapestry. 
LJ


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## clong

Robert Holcombe said:


> I went in the opposite direction as you. It is hard to argue success when it works both ways but I do get below 0 F weather and 90+ F days in the summer. No top vent or top exit all year, R10 insulated top all year and R10 side insulation in the winter. I intend to have an insulated hive or two all year in 2020 with no top exit. Oh, I use 12 oz. duck cloth as an inner cover which gets heavily propolized along with my rough sawn, home-made boxes. Bottom board is screened.
> ...
> I have seen a couple unusual result with 7-10 hives wintering-over the past two years and going through summer. The neatest event was in a late winter Nor'easter and my weather station showed that the temperature at the top of the hive above cluster was below the dew point - raining inside the hive??!!! I went out during a lull and peaked under the insulated cover. The foam insulation joint was leaking on the wind side - Nor'easter wind pressure was pushing water, rain or condensate, in. About a 150 bees were lined up, side by side, taking the water! The inner surface of the top cover surface was mostly dry. I need a better top cover design for wind and rain! I have yet to lose a hive or a bee to "moisture problems" that I could find. I do not find mold inside the hives - anymore - since eliminating the top vent and insulating. I do have one mystery and when I figure it out I will report it - had to do with feeding in the Fall. I I think physics is on my side. Much more to learn about this environmental condition.


Robert,

I'm going down a similar path to yours. R10 insulation wedged into the telescoping cover year-round, with R5 on the sides year-round. The inner covers are plexiglass. No top venting Sep-June. Last year I ran a couple of hives without top vents through late Spring and Summer. I didn't see any issues other than ants setting up nests on top of the inner covers. No moisture problems. No mold.

The only time I have ever seen moisture under the glass was early fall after heavy feeding. This lasted a couple days, and never returned.

I've run a broodminder with this setup. During the winter the bees maintain 60-80% RH under the inner cover. As long as no cold air contacts the top of the inner cover, the bees stay dry and can survive and thrive with no top vents.


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## Fusion_power

Bernhard Mobus researched these questions and wrote up the results in the July and August 1998 issues of American Bee Journal. I happen to have a copy and made them available to Derek Mitchell to review. Derek basically dismissed the problems Bernhard found and published several articles indicating thermal efficiency is better for the bees.

Bernhard put colonies of bees into super insulated hives, i.e. with very thick insulation protecting the bees. The results were eye opening. The larger the colony going into winter, the worse they looked coming out of winter. Why? When he investigated, he was able to weigh the bees to prove that they were severely water deficient. Again, why? It turns out that wintering bees rely on water produced by metabolizing honey. Honey is about 18% moisture to start with, but the process of metabolizing honey also produces water from the chemical reaction of sugar as it oxidizes. C6H12O6 + 6 O2 turns into 6 CO2(carbon dioxide) and 6 H2O(water). That extra water is not just wasted. The bees use it to maintain the colony when they are unable to forage because the temperature is too cold.

But there are some details worth considering. Bernhard was working with colonies deliberately made very large by combining two colonies for winter in an insulated box. It turns out that small nucs and weak colonies do indeed winter better in an insulated box. The bees in a small cluster are forced to work harder on a per bee basis to maintain cluster temperature. The small cluster does not become water deficient.

When I first started beekeeping, I put my bees in Langstroth hives with tightly closed boxes and an entrance 3/8 X 3 inches. The combs were covered in mold and the bees were nearly dead by the time I figured out something was wrong. Talking with experienced beekeepers in the area provided information that an upper entrance is required in this high humidity climate. I cut a notch in my covers that was 3/4 inch wide by 3/8 inch deep under the lip of the cover so I could slide the cover to either open or close it. With it open in winter, I had an upper entrance just in case the bottom entrance was blocked by snow or dead bees and the bees no longer had mold in the hive due to high moisture.

What would I advise people who want to test very well insulated hives? Study the bees and listen to what they tell you. The bees will never lie. If moisture levels are too high, the colony will be in distress and mold will grow. Get the heat generating cycle out of balance and loads of bees will fly out and die in the snow as they try to forage for water. Get too much air flowing and the bees will consume excessive amounts of honey generating heat and they will die of nosema or just flat out from having a gut full of poop for too long in which case they will foul the combs. Be sure to pay attention to cluster size as the dynamics are very different for a large colony vs a small colony.


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## GregB

Pick your poison (needs translation):
https://medvkostrome.ru/dla-pchelovoda/construction_hives/

Be sure to save yourself a copy of this wonderful print:
https://i0.wp.com/medvkostrome.ru/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/общий-вид-ульев.jpg

The special mention - the sod hive:
https://medvkostrome.ru/dla-pchelovoda/construction_hives/ulei-iz-derna/


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## Robert Holcombe

Thanks for adding a word to my vocabulary, "poikilothermic ". I am aware of the concept but simply defined it (to myself) as a honey bee life and death system requirement with a wide temperature tolerance and capable of heat generation in response to specific demands. I would think the human approach is to adjust clothing to suit needs and avoid high demand on metabolic rates which also helps. 

The attempted point of my comparison was from a physics point of view. An explanations of materials, arrangement and effects. One of the joys of this beekeeping hobby is the huge number of variables one must contend with over the course of a year which do not repeat year to year besides short term temporal requirements. It makes it difficult to prove you have control of a system when you cannot make something occur and go-away at will; far easier with non-living system issues. I have even given thought to re-learning and using the Buckingham theorem approach to define some effects. I think the time required and my age may limit that approach. Entering my fifth winter I am just beginning to feel like I now understand a few things about the mix of honey bee biological, ecological requirements and in a clearly definable physical environment. The effects of the environment not to mention the social behavior aspects are difficult to measure; hive humidity relative to honey bee needs being one of the least understood variables. ( I am also trying to learn to improve my writing, reading and communication skills.)

Lastly, Derek Mitchell is one of my favorite authors along with Dr. Seeley. Defining observations with "numbers", derived or by test, works for me. I have yet to read his article on the hive-bee mass relationship but he has already saved me a lot of time confirming things I was thinking about and implementing. It helps to have my "questioned" sanity reinforced by a trained physicist and biologist. I am quite sure your conclusion of his ability to embrace concepts is affected by the "eye of the beholder".


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## Robert Holcombe

I have not had the mold problem after two winters. In fact i had more mold with the standard no insulation, top vent approach. But the bees were dead when I saw mold so free water may have accumulated after the fact. I have to re-read Bernhard Mobus research and conclusions again. I hope to see actual test reports with more detail. I thought he was stretching his understanding of fluid dynamics and boundary layers a bit to suit a position. 

When I have had bees "fly out" on to the snow. I investigated and picked some up. I warmed them in my hand until they came out of the cold stupor, began to move appendages slowly and then flew off again. Right back onto the snow. My conclusion was Nosema not dehydration. Three hives showed this symptom but all three survived and boomed in the spring. I had zero winter loses but three hives died, eventually, 8 survived. Two due to queen issues and one likely due to an unconfirmed disease. 

Until proven it is the wrong approach I am sticking with the conservation of energy principle as a guiding light. Hopefull some cheap and accurate humidity sensors will show up soon. I am looking for one accurate probe on a small diameter, 10-inch probing shaft.


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## little_john

Robert Holcombe said:


> It helps to have my "questioned" sanity reinforced by a trained physicist and biologist. I am quite sure your conclusion of his ability to embrace concepts is affected by the "eye of the beholder".


"Trained physicist" - yes, 'trained' is an appropriate term to use - I couldn't improve on that.

So - you're a physicist intent upon analysing the dynamic conditions within a beehive.
Question: does moist air within a beehive ascend or descend ? A simple enough (albeit unqualified) question which should provide you with just a taste of the modelling complexity which lies ahead.

Recommendation: if you have some ideas which make sense to you, then I'd seriously suggest developing confidence in those, rather than looking for confirmation of them from others - because ultimately, that's the only way in which progress, or at least novel ways of looking at the world are created.
There's certainly comfort, reassurance and even approval to be found within the 'group hugs' of herd thinking - but somebody, somewhere at some time has to do or think something different, else nothing will ever change.

Perhaps the most perfect example of what I'm talking about can be found in the recent work of Samuel Ramsey: in the early days of his research Ramsey began to suspect that the conventional view that Varroa fed on bees' haemolymph was wrong. It must have taken a lot of guts to pursue further investigations which went against the herd view, especially as he was required to provide something substantial and of merit within a relatively short time-frame in order to gain a PhD. But he held true to his suspicions and went on to prove that the commonly held view was completely wrong.

Asking the right question is immensely important. Ramsey asked "what do Varroa mites actually feed on ?" As a physicist you'll know that Max Plank asked the question "why does a heated iron bar glow red (and not any other colour) ?". And from that simple question developed his Quantum Theory.

FWIW - one question I'm currently asking is "why are bees covered from head to feet in hairs - including their mandibles and the cornea of their eyes ?". What purpose do they serve ? And the Varroa mite too - it's covered in hairs - why ? I do have some ideas, but it's only by asking questions that others aren't asking - essentially by challenging received wisdom and if needs be going out on a limb that new knowledge is gained. So - believe in yourself 

Good luck.
LJ


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## JWPalmer

LJ, I too wonder about the hairs on a bees eyes and suspect that they are a sensory organ of sorts. Who knows for sure?


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## little_john

If you investigate near-Earth atmospheric electricity (a wikipedia-level investigation ...), you may begin to get some clues there. During flight a honeybee develops anywhere from 20 or 30 - up to a massive >400 volts of static electricity on it's body - this positive voltage will no doubt be carried on some or all of those hairs.

Recently, somebody posted about Varroa mites waiting on flowers for a ride on a visiting bee. Where were they observed to position themselves ? - on the edges of petals and on the tips of stamens - precisely where the plant's negative electrostatic charge is concentrated. The mite then apparently extends it's forelegs upwards - this suggests perhaps that negative ions stream from those 'sharp points' just as a lighting conductor does. Are these hairs then the tips of sensory organs, just as a cat's whiskers are ? Very likely, imo.

Electrostatic 'ribbons' streaming upwards from tall buildings and trees are implicated in the formation of Drone Congregational Areas, and variations in atmospheric electrostatic potentials would also explain how bees detect approaching storm fronts, and so on ...

I've been amassing this kind of information for ages - needless to say there's nothing absolutely definite about any of this stuff, but in my opinion it does point toward static electricity playing some kind of role in the life of bees - and hairs are very likely implicated in that. Who knows - it could become the next big area of research. Sorry about the thread drift ...
LJ


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## JoshuaW

Robert,

Derek's research is among my favorite reading, too, especially this time of year. His insulation experiments prompted me to experiment with a few polystyrene hives last winter. I had 30 hives in wood and 5 in poly. The difference came shining through in late-winter/early spring during the unsettled weather. Wood hives had 3-4 frames of brood while the poly had 6 or more. The poly hives had drones at the purple-eye stage in the 3rd week of March: I could have started grafting a full three weeks early. The poly hives also swarmed in the 2nd week of April, again, three weeks before the wood hives. So working/watching poly hives in early spring was like driving a sports car: tap the gas and spin out.

All my winter loss last year was nucs I made up too late. Those were in wood, but I was able to move a few nucs into poly equipment and lost none of them. I believe the extra insulation helped them move to stores and take feed earlier.

Once the temperatures started to settle into May/June wood and poly hives seemed about even, so the wood hives caught up. Actually, it seemed the wood hives were storing more nectar during the flow, but I have nothing but speculation as to why that appeared to be the case. In the course of the season I became too busy to care to keep close tabs on the honey production comparison. I did start wondering if the bees in the poly hives collected less because they knew how efficient the cavity is...so needed less to survive...

No mold, no condensation issues at all. The Paradise poly hives that Blue Sky sells are intended to have the screen bottom open, year-round. That's where the air exchange takes place, especially during winter...

I haven't seen any indications that polystyrene hives have fewer pests or diseases, in my location.

I ended the year with 60 poly hives.


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## Fusion_power

JoshuaW, you are pointing out that better thermal protection permits earlier spring buildup. Note that narrow frames and small cell foundation also correlate with earlier spring buildup. You have to do due diligence to figure out if earlier swarming is manageable with your setup.

What I would really like to see would be 200 colonies set up in poly for winter with half having a small upper entrance about 1/2 inch diameter and the other half with only the lower entrance. This would tell me much more about the effectiveness of poly for wintering bees.


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## JoshuaW

Hi Fusion, thanks for the response.

I've decided to use standard-size equipment. As far as managing earlier swarming, I draw a parallel of using poly hives to growing plants in a greenhouse: season extension.

As for a 200-hive experiment, I'll repeat what I wrote: "The Paradise poly hives that Blue Sky sells are intended to have the screen bottom open, year-round. That's where the air exchange takes place, especially during winter..."

As a matter of fact, Paradise makes a ventilated top cover, but Derek Mitchell's research indicates that top ventilation in heavily insulated hives is detrimental. I think Paradise made the top vent cover for market demand, IMO...


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## little_john

JoshuaW said:


> Derek Mitchell's research indicates that top ventilation in heavily insulated hives is detrimental.


To save me reading that - what is the basis of that 'research' ? DM has only been beekeeping for a couple of years and afaik has very few colonies. His wife is an experienced beekeeper of course ...

Is perhaps what you describe as 'research' based on the findings of other people ?
LJ


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## JoshuaW

LJ, I don't understand the question, but when I said "research" I meant Derek's.

I read Derek's articles that he wrote for ABJ and Bee Culture. Somone else (can't remember off the top of my head) also wrote an article for Bee Culture about wintering hives and referenced Derek's experiments in it. 

I can't access Derek's original papers because they are behind a paywall.

Mitchell D. 2016 Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures of Apis mellifera: implications for survival, clustering, humidity regulation and Varroa destructor. Int. J. Biometeorol. 60, 629–638. (doi:10.1007/s00484- 015-1057-z)


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## Juhani Lunden

JoshuaW said:


> I think Paradise made the top vent cover for market demand, IMO...


I´m pretty sure it was market demand.


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## Juhani Lunden

JoshuaW said:


> His insulation experiments prompted me to experiment with a few polystyrene hives last winter. I had 30 hives in wood and 5 in poly.


Did the both groups have similar structure concerning upper entrances?


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## little_john

JoshuaW said:


> LJ, I don't understand the question, but when I said "research" I meant Derek's.


A misunderstanding then. Mitchell and I have crossed swords in the past about the premises upon which his theories are based. For a moment there I thought that he'd actually generated some hard data from a real-world experiment, and I was curious as to how he'd achieved this - that's all. 
LJ


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## clong

JoshuaW said:


> I read Derek's articles that he wrote for ABJ and Bee Culture. Somone else (can't remember off the top of my head) also wrote an article for Bee Culture about wintering hives and referenced Derek's experiments in it.


Joshua,

Is this the article you referenced?

https://www.beeculture.com/winter-management/


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## clong

Fusion_power said:


> JoshuaW, you are pointing out that better thermal protection permits earlier spring buildup. Note that narrow frames and small cell foundation also correlate with earlier spring buildup. You have to do due diligence to figure out if earlier swarming is manageable with your setup.
> 
> What I would really like to see would be 200 colonies set up in poly for winter with half having a small upper entrance about 1/2 inch diameter and the other half with only the lower entrance. This would tell me much more about the effectiveness of poly for wintering bees.


FP,

I've managed to winter one strong hive with polystryrene boxes and a lower-only entrance. Using squarepeg's modifications of Walt Wright's Checkerboard/Nectar managment method prevented swarming. To my surprise, the colony superseded a year-old prolific queen in accord with one of Mr. Wright's predictions.

Not statistically significant, but interesting.

I wonder if anyone in Scandinavia has done a large-scale experiment with poly hives, comparing top vs bottom entrances?


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## Robert Holcombe

Who drew "first blood" LJ ? I pay pretty close attention to this particular subject, top vents and humidity. In particular "Derek Mitchell's research indicates that top ventilation in heavily insulated hives is detrimental." is not claim by Dreck Mitchell I have come across. I may have to buy the "mass.." article soon. I will have to think about how a heavily insulated hive could negatively affect the dew point inside a hive. Heavily needs to be quantified, maybe to the point of near nil heat loss which causes internal overheating followed by the need for evaporative cooling by the bees resulting in excessive moisture and vapor pressure flowing out on below zero F, very high RH day could cause ice formation at the bottom entrance thus causing closure of the exit for moisture diffusion, and draining of CO2. Rambling on....... ran into this hiking in winter with breath causes my eyes and nostrils to ice up......


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## Fusion_power

This thread on the British forum is worth reading. You will get an idea of the "vested interests". https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=45550


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## JoshuaW

Juhani asked "Did the both groups have similar structure concerning upper entrances?"
Me: Yes: no upper entrances on any hives.

clong: yes, that's one article.

The main article is in ABJ Volume 157 No. 8 August 2017 "Honey Bee Engineering: Top Ventilation and Top Entrances". It's a simplification of Derek's earlier work: Mitchell D. 2016 Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures of Apis mellifera: implications for survival, clustering, humidity regulation and Varroa destructor. Int. J. Biometeorol. 60, 629–638. (doi:10.1007/s00484-015-1057-z)


Good luck!!


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## Robert Holcombe

Think about the impact or airflow / boundary layer around the body when flying, heat and moisture loses, sensors etc. The electrostatic buildup and discharge question is a good one as when we did some stuff off a helicopter we had to drop a ground wire into the ocean first then deploy instruments. My question is why is the queen's top thorax are apparently hairless?


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## Robert Holcombe

Thanks for the reinforcing information clong,

We have similar experiences in different environments with a small time shift. I am at the 8 to 11 hive apiary stage and do not intend to grow. My observations are the similar to yours. I have had a weird event during Fall feeding with moisture. I will have to look at it next Fall. You get the benefit of a large statistical base.


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## Robert Holcombe

Thanks JoushaW more reinforcement,

Early hive expansion was also reported by Owen in his massive thermocouple study in the 1950s ( I shall reread and study his isotherms this winter as I am more aware now). He concluded that early brood raising was the prime advantage but also he iterated the concept of a looser cluster was able to move easier to stores. He was very focused on defining minimal survival requirements. Of course humidity sensing was beyond his capabilities. 

This past season I standardized my hive configuration in early Spring after removing insulation ( a design issue). I also heavily fed and weighed hives in the Fall, nothing in winter or Spring, to an eclectic group of old and young queens in nucs, hives and what I call intensive care units. All survived the winter two were lost in mid-Spring to queen issues. One became an intensive-care unit. All were winter OAV treated. Honey flow and foraging was amazing this year but the most incredible occurrence was the lack of swarm cells - not one hive swarmed nor produced a swarm cell. I wish I knew what I did or it was pure luck. One hive expanded early as well as foraging in cooler weather, all day (Saskatraz characteristic?). This hive was ready for early tree foliage; 100 lb. of my favorite light honey - simply incredible! She wen ton to become Super Woman. 

I am trying to define requirements for a hive design for my old-age ( not far away) and focusing on heat transfer and moisture or the water cycle . The effects of propolis is not to be ignored. I use 12 oz. duck cloth as an inner cover and rough sawn pine for hive boxes. Bees really propolized the cloth and wood heavily. Propolis it turn out is some what like Gortex as it seems to make the duck cloth water proof but is permeable to water vapor. From experience I am well aware of permeability of materials, changes in dielectric properties, absorption, etc. I am imagining a design that is composed of polyisocyanate foam bonded to a pine box. I assume the wood will not retain free water and rot but the box to box joint issues bother me. The alternative is an insulating structure with a an air gap between wood and foam with a low resistance permeable path for the air gap to the environment (very similar as to what Hesbach wrote about in BJ).
I have used a poly-hives to get nucs going, affects are kind of obvious on a small colony. I will build some. I am working on an easily removed insulated, 5-sided box, R10 box to slip over my "standardized brood chamber" composed of a medium-deep-medium. I reserve, keep cold, the screened bottom as a volume for diffusion based moisture exchange and condensation of vapor. This design will hopefully make access easy anytime for inspection. I seem to need to verify queen status and brood laying early to avoid colony loss in Spring due to queen issues. Early inspection will help me respond to a failing cluster or "intensive care unit" (ICU); move them to a poly unit or shrink size of standard brood chamber and feed. One ICU gave me a super of honey this year by what may be a four year old queen.

Ventilation or moisture control is needed but best left to the bees. The easy concept is to visualize is a "top vent", match sticks under top covers and the like. Punching holes in structure, especially on various surfaces, is dangerous for the bee as differential pressures caused by wind aerodynamics will create forced convection cooling and unwanted effects. Controlling the dew point, vapor pressure and material permeability characteristics is more difficult to imagine and understand but it seems the bees can do it if given the chance. Now if I could just find a cheap method of sensing humidity accurately over the 50-100% range at multiple points manually or via high tech recording/ transmission.


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## clong

Robert Holcombe said:


> I am trying to define requirements for a hive design for my old-age ( not far away) and focusing on heat transfer and moisture or the water cycle . ... I am imagining a design that is composed of polyisocyanate foam bonded to a pine box. I assume the wood will not retain free water and rot but the box to box joint issues bother me.
> 
> Now if I could just find a cheap method of sensing humidity accurately over the 50-100% range at multiple points manually or via high tech recording/ transmission.


Robert,

Here is one approach to insulating existing hive bodies:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?350601-clong-2018-2019-Treatment-Free-Experience&p=1696903#post1696903

For temp/humidity sensing, have you considered the Broodminder?
https://broodminder.com/collections/products/products/broodminder-th


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## Juhani Lunden

clong said:


> I wonder if anyone in Scandinavia has done a large-scale experiment with poly hives, comparing top vs bottom entrances?


I haven´t seen any studies, and it is maybe because nobody uses top entrances here in Scandinavia. The bottom ventilation and polystyrene hives is the norm, and even wooden boxes are without top entrances.


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## Robert Holcombe

Juhani Linden, 
I wonder if the low relative humidity (RH) - cold air can cause a dyhration problem if allowed to vent vertically through a hive. Similar to trying to keep the RH up when running the wood stove. ( not to mention heat loss)


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## Juhani Lunden

Robert Holcombe said:


> Juhani Linden,
> I wonder if the low relative humidity (RH) - cold air can cause a dyhration problem if allowed to vent vertically through a hive. Similar to trying to keep the RH up when running the wood stove. ( not to mention heat loss)


Lunden= natural type of park
Linden= lind= lehmus= tree 

In the old days, most of the beekeepers in Finland had American style Langstroth boxes (brood and honey same type) with upper entrances and vertical ventilation. 40 years ago that started to change, when styrofoam hives and bottom ventilation came. Plus beekeepers did not want to get so many queens laying above excluders. (In wax circulation and swarm prevention systems brood was lifted above excluder.)


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## Juhani Lunden

From the book "Beekeeping for all" by Abbé Warré:

"To my great surprise, I noticed straight away that the bees consumed less of their stores in the
hives with single walls where they would feel the cold still more in winter. This is however normal. In
single-walled hives, the bees are torpid; they are as if in a continuous sleep. Now, who dines in that
condition? With hives with warm walls, the bees are active for longer, and thus have need of
sustenance. The single-walled hive thus economises on wood and stores"


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## GregB

Juhani Lunden said:


> From the book "Beekeeping for all" by Abbé Warré:
> 
> "To my great surprise, I noticed straight away that the bees consumed less of their stores in the
> hives with single walls where they would feel the cold still more in winter. This is however normal. In
> single-walled hives, the bees are torpid; they are as if in a continuous sleep. Now, who dines in that
> condition? With hives with warm walls, the bees are active for longer, and thus have need of
> sustenance. The single-walled hive thus economises on wood and stores"


Abbé Warré hails from a location compatible to USDA Zone 6-7 (by the most extreme winter temps possible) and his own local humidity/wind profiles.
Keep this in mind and don't use his finding as if applicable to you.
Most likely they are not.

What is important - the wintering is the most optimal at steady 4-5C (~40F) - the sweet spot.
I understand this number refers to the average temperature of the air that surrounds the bee cluster.
The colder temps cause more stores to be used for maintaining the cluster temp.
The warmer temps cause more stores to be used due to the bees being more active.

Enough academic-grade material available to support this optimal wintering temp.
Implement this wintering model and be happy (less important how you do it - be it a triple-wall OR a conditioned shed OR a poly-hive).


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## Juhani Lunden

GregV said:


> Abbé Warré hails from a location compatible to USDA Zone 6-7 (by the most extreme winter temps possible) and his own local humidity/wind profiles.
> Keep this in mind and don't use his finding as if applicable to you.
> Most likely they are not.
> 
> What is important - the wintering is the most optimal at steady 4-5C (~40F) - the sweet spot.
> I understand this number refers to the average temperature of the air that surrounds the bee cluster.
> The colder temps cause more stores to be used for maintaining the cluster temp.
> The warmer temps cause more stores to be used due to the bees being more active.
> 
> Enough academic-grade material available to support this optimal wintering temp.
> Implement this wintering model and be happy (less important how you do it - be it a triple-wall OR a conditioned shed OR a poly-hive).


I´m only saying it was very interesting to find that a beekeeping person that famous as Warré, from France(?) anyhow much milder climate than mine, has come up exactly the same conclusion as me, from the latitude of Alaska.


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## crofter

Two different views on stores consumption. Not mentioned is the influence of colony size and whether or not brooding is occurring equally. There will be a huge difference due to type of bee (Italian or Carni) and how this will affect their inclination to raise brood. Carnis will cease to brood if no pollen is coming in; Italians will brood as long as there is food in the hive and they can achieve brooding temperature.

I think this question needs far better controls to make black or white conclusions. It would be an interesting to see a well controlled trial. There certainly is a lot of mixed opinion.

Edit; I also remember seeing that mite levels will affect honey consumption.


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## Juhani Lunden

crofter said:


> Carnis will cease to brood if no pollen is coming in; Italians will brood as long as there is food in the hive and they can achieve brooding temperature.


Long enough human breeding will shape different races towards an optimum in a given environment. Carnis have been shaped to make more brood, Italians have been shaped to take care of their stores etc. Result: optimum bee (as beekeeper sees it), makes large hives and large crops and swarm inclination is minimal. 

Very often beginners ask me which race is the best. My answer is "wrong question". You should ask who are the best breeders. So close are the top breeds in Europe, no matter what race, Buckfast, Carnis or Italian.


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## crofter

Juhani; 

You may well be correct about the different original bee types in Europe, having drifted or been pushed toward more similar habits. I think perhaps the more dominant type of bee in the US is influenced by almond pollination: the need to brood up during cooler months so the old Italian type is well represented. I think Greg has referred to them as Zombie bees!

From what I gather many of the Canadian breeders are working on bees with more of the Old Carni habits with less of the swarming traits. One that I am somewhat familiar with has, for selection traits 1. good disposition, 2. good production 3. low mite counts, 4. winter survial - he says he doesnt graft from any queens that didnt overwinter! 

What I was suggesting regarding insulation affecting winter honey consumption is that many of the examples put forth as proof have too many possible other influences involved for them to be very conclusive.


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## Fusion_power

Italians were bred - and still are today - to go into winter with large colonies. This does not necessarily correlate with consuming more stores over winter. They generally start brooding earlier in the spring and therefore are much more susceptible to starving out during inclement spring conditions. I've never had a Buckfast or Carniolan colony brood to the extent the Italians do when no nectar or pollen is coming in.

There are several interactions taking place in a wintering colony of bees. Here are the variables to consider:

1. How large is the colony going into winter?
2. How healthy are the bees, particularly mite status?
3. How much stores do they have to winter on?
4. What genetics do they represent in terms of tendency to raise brood?
5. What kind of hive are they in? (single wall wood, poly, or anything else)
6. What weather conditions do they have to survive?
7. What is the status of the queen's egg laying ability?

A very large healthy colony going into winter in a poly hive may come out of winter nearly dead due to not being able to forage for water. The cluster needs to consume a minimum amount of honey not just to stay warm, but to produce the water they need to live. A small cluster in the same hive and conditions might come out of winter in superb condition because they were able to consume enough honey keeping warm to maintain their water levels. Put the large cluster in a single wall wooden hive and it would come out of winter in superb condition where the small cluster might die due to being too small to maintain cluster temperatures. Give the large cluster in a single wall wooden hive a prolific Italian queen and they might starve to death due to brooding so much they consume all their honey before nectar is available. The small cluster in a single wall wooden hive with a prolific Italian queen might come through winter in outstanding condition due to having plenty of stores to convert into bees before nectar flows start. Put that Italian queen in Juhani's conditions with a wooden single wall hive and the results would be very different compared to my climate in North Alabama. Juhani and I might both be very satisfied with the results of wintering Buckfast queens where neither of us is happy with Italians. Give me a 2 1/2 year old queen to overwinter and I would likely lose the colony. Give Juhani the same queen and he would probably consider her an excellent 2 year old queen. The point is simple. Beekeeping is as much an art as it is a practical business. The latest "fad" that comes along clamoring for your money is not nearly as valuable as the years of experience we have available by studying beekeeping literature of the last 150 years.


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## dano41

Very interesting thread, may have missed it but in Bernhard hives are the brood frames running cold way front to back and is the enterance fully open at the front?


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## BernhardHeuvel

Running cold way front to back. My entrances are not fully open. Never pays to let them fully open.


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## Juhani Lunden

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Never pays to let them fully open.


I have both front *and back* entrance fully open all winter (not spring).

Colonies keep calm right from the winter start and consume minimum amount of stores. 

No mold.


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## dano41

Thank you for replies.


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## dano41

Bernhard sent you a private message but possible you don't accept them.


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## ankklackning

Is this thread supposed to be where people put all kinds of topics together? Or is it better to put questions individually based in other areas by themselves? 

I wanted to check this before posting something.


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## JWPalmer

This sub forum, equipment and hardware, is for any specific question or discussion that would fit that topic. General questions can be posted to the Bee Forum. Basic questions from new beekeepers should be posted in the beekeeping 101 sub forum.


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## kilocharlie

You'll want to get into the habit of reading the title and the first few posts. Sometimes the topics tend to diverge from the point, but sometimes we're just covering all the bases. If you read the whole thread, it usually makes more sense when you see something that seems unrelated at first glance.


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## sparkyApis

I see a lot of discussion of controlling ventilation. What happens if we give control to the bees? I am thinking of the provision of vents, accessible to the bees, covered in mesh or otherwise arranged so that the bees can propolise them, or not, at will. What do they do?


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## clong

sparkyApis said:


> I see a lot of discussion of controlling ventilation. What happens if we give control to the bees? I am thinking of the provision of vents, accessible to the bees, covered in mesh or otherwise arranged so that the bees can propolise them, or not, at will. What do they do?


Sparky,

I have a Layens that has the typical 3/8" x 4" opening, along with a screened vent on the bottom. The colony completely sealed the bottom vent, and propolized the front entrance to 3/8" x 1 1/2" for winter. I've also had Lang equipment where the bees propolized inner covers with screens.

I like the idea of giving control to the bees Gregv has done a lot of good experimentation along those lines.


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## AR1

sparkyApis said:


> I see a lot of discussion of controlling ventilation. What happens if we give control to the bees? I am thinking of the provision of vents, accessible to the bees, covered in mesh or otherwise arranged so that the bees can propolise them, or not, at will. What do they do?


I took apart a dead out last month. It was a tight hive with little air flow possible. The only entrance was a lower about 4 inches by 1/2 inch. Surprised to see that the bees had propolized that down to a handful of tiny one bee sized holes with all the rest of the entrance blocked. I believe they died due to asphyxiation after a huge snowfall. I had the entrance shielded but the wind had caused fine snow to drift over the entrance, and also dead bees were blocking the entrance. The bees had obviously thought they had plenty of air flow when they built up that wall.


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## crofter

Bees certainly seem to attempt to control ventilation but sometimes we create overpowering situations or weather changes are so abrupt that they dont have time to react or compensate. Once they start raising brood they are committed to incubating it as first priority.

Ventilation is not simple; it affects oxygen and CO2 levels, relative humidity, and hive temperature control. Insulation level greatly affects the the relative humidity. Also playing into the the equation is the bees need for free water to dilute honey to make it consumable. Brood rearing conditions increases this need five fold or more compared to winter coasting usage.

Topping your colonies with a medium depth hive body with a screened bottom and filled with loose planer shavings gives a wondrous amount of insulation value; Zero condensation can occur and it is also porous and absorptive enough to suck most any remaining moisture out of the bees environment. I have been a great supporter of this but am having more than niggling thoughts that it badly neglects the need for water. Loose sugar placed on newspaper atop the frames remains free flowing while even the unopened bags in my cupboard get hard! Username Laldredge here on the forum is filling sponges with water in the feed shim and which the bees are just slurping up. Hmmm?

It probably would be idea if we could give the bees a ballpark set of conditions that was within their capabilities to moderate to their own needs. Different successful methods certainly exist and often seem totally contradictory. Obviously local climate conditions are a huge variable. Perhaps what these different methods have is common is a bottom line that is something the bees can work with. If we knew exactly what that middle of the road condition was we might be able to make things easier for the bees.

Seems like presently it is more art than science!


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## GregB

Based on my experience (and observation of others) I find this entire "ventilation" problem artificially over-complicated.
In winter it is easily solved by:
1) creation of sufficient air buffer within the wintering hive (air-pockets in wide hives or bottom air-buffer in narrow hives)
2) having mid-way positioned air access/entrance - to prevent suffocation and natural in/out ventilation (a single midway entrance will do)

No need for screens/mashes/similar gymnastics.

Need for water is most critical in early spring and is solved by placing un-permeable layer for vapor condensation (simple plastic) over the bees.
This plastic layer over the bees (if well insulated above) works through the winter just as well.


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## sparkyApis

AR1 said:


> Surprised to see that the bees had propolized that down to a handful of tiny one bee sized holes with all the rest of the entrance blocked.


Interesting. My next question follows from this. Do you or or anyone else see bees blocking and then unblocking ventilation in response to seasonal changes?


GregV said:


> Based on my experience (and observation of others) I find this entire "ventilation" problem artificially over-complicated.


I do not have the experience but in reading this and other threads the same thought has occured to me, hence my questions. I am wondering if there may be design details easily added to hives to facilitate the bees control over their own environment. Mid level entrances are one. Multiple small entrance holes are another, do bees block and unblock a proportion of these to suit themselves? What about top vents made up of multiple small holes, easily propolised. Do, or can, bees make use of these things if provided?


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## AR1

sparkyApis said:


> Interesting. My next question follows from this. Do you or or anyone else see bees blocking and then unblocking ventilation in response to seasonal changes?
> ...What about top vents made up of multiple small holes, easily propolised. Do, or can, bees make use of these things if provided?


I have seen lots of propolis blocking. I have not seen a blocked entrance be later unblocked, but I have only been at this for 5 years with a small number of hives, so there is lots I have not seen.

Bees really seem to like tiny entrances. Several of my hive bodies were made from repurposed wood that had holes left in them for bolts, 1/4 inches. Those holes get used a lot.


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## Gray Goose

AR1 said:


> I took apart a dead out last month. It was a tight hive with little air flow possible. The only entrance was a lower about 4 inches by 1/2 inch. Surprised to see that the bees had propolized that down to a handful of tiny one bee sized holes with all the rest of the entrance blocked. I believe they died due to asphyxiation after a huge snowfall. I had the entrance shielded but the wind had caused fine snow to drift over the entrance, and also dead bees were blocking the entrance. The bees had obviously thought they had plenty of air flow when they built up that wall.


Assuming the "propolized down to a handful of holes" is an air flow preference is not entirely correct, and an assumption IMO.

could have done it for wasps , yellow jackets, and or any other not yet known reasons.
Some races do add tons of propolis, while others less.

A fall inspection and removal of said "air block" may be a good practice.

feels like from the description "easy to guard" may be a better reason for this propolization.

GG


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## GregB

sparkyApis said:


> I do not have the experience but in reading this and other threads the same thought has occured to me, hence my questions. I am wondering if there may be design details easily added to hives to facilitate the bees control over their own environment. Mid level entrances are one. Multiple small entrance holes are another, do bees block and unblock a proportion of these to suit themselves? What about top vents made up of multiple small holes, easily propolised. Do, or can, bees make use of these things if provided?


What works for me is combination of:

filtering filler above the frames (akin typical home attic filled with loose insulation)
sufficient under-frame buffer
small auxiliary mid-level entrance
a row of small lower entrances

All those talks about "moisture" issues I don't understand.
They don't apply to me.
I WISH that was my main problem - easily solved by now.

Btw, on this picture the bees clearly vote for the mid-level/upper-level entrance during our typical cold spring. One can see what kind of entrances I do (1/2" bullet holes) - never get propolised.


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## AR1

Gray Goose said:


> Assuming the "propolized down to a handful of holes" is an air flow preference is not entirely correct, and an assumption IMO.
> 
> could have done it for wasps , yellow jackets, and or any other not yet known reasons.
> Some races do add tons of propolis, while others less.
> 
> A fall inspection and removal of said "air block" may be a good practice.
> 
> feels like from the description "easy to guard" may be a better reason for this propolization.
> 
> GG


You may well be right. Interesting, their neighbor hive, 5 feet away, from a sister queen, did not propolize the entrance at all. Different style setup, with a traditional bottom board and a full-length bottom opening. They survived and the heavily propolized hive did not. It may be that the propolized hive was under some greater stress.


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## Gray Goose

AR1 said:


> You may well be right. Interesting, their neighbor hive, 5 feet away, from a sister queen, did not propolize the entrance at all. Different style setup, with a traditional bottom board and a full-length bottom opening. They survived and the heavily propolized hive did not. It may be that the propolized hive was under some greater stress.


right
a detective you need to be....

GG


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## jtgoral

GregV said:


> Based on my experience (and observation of others) I find this entire "ventilation" problem artificially over-complicated.
> In winter it is easily solved by:
> 1) creation of sufficient air buffer within the wintering hive (air-pockets in wide hives or bottom air-buffer in narrow hives)
> 2) having mid-way positioned air access/entrance - to prevent suffocation and natural in/out ventilation (a single midway entrance will do)
> 
> No need for screens/mashes/similar gymnastics.
> 
> Need for water is most critical in early spring and is solved by placing un-permeable layer for vapor condensation (simple plastic) over the bees.
> This plastic layer over the bees (if well insulated above) works through the winter just as well.


I went through over 5 years of Rick Willam's from Daysland post on Facebook. He has 50 years of experience in beekeeping and he will probably agree with you. So do I
*Rick Willams*


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## kilocharlie

Fusion-power...you have had the Brother Adam hives with 14 narrow frames and, was it 5.1mm cell size? for several seasons now. I had just started back then when I was stranded away from home, the Thomas Fire burned all my hives and my home, and am finally starting over, gearing up for 2022.

I am curious if there are any changes you would make from where I left off - 

*18-5/16 inch x 18-5/16 inch x 12" inside dimensions
*central partition board
*fourteen 1.240" wide brood frames x 11.25" deep with 7/8" wide top bars
*12 normal honey frames some empty, some with foundation
*metal bound queen excluders cut and wood-framed 5/16ths inches both sides of the wires
*deep screened bottom boards
*square FatBeeMan modified Miller hive top feeders
*square fondant board-bottomed quilt box for Winter moisture control

I lost the 4 observer boxes I was building last year in a fire in the mid-state area, so still have very little learning curve time with these hives. As Bernard points out, learn the boxes first, 2-queen systems later. Any further learning curve tips you've gained since 2016 would be helpful. Thank you, Kilo.


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## Fusion_power

One thing I have learned that is unique to my climate is that I only need 7 frames to get a colony through winter. I put a divider in and run a single colony in one side of the hive on 7 frames. Since each frame holds 9 or 10 pounds of honey, that works out to wintering with 40 to 50 pounds. In early spring, I either give combs or frames of foundation if I want the colony to expand through the entire hive. Supering with this setup is slightly delayed as I want the colony to expand to the side instead of moving up and laying eggs in the super. This gets down to how to manage the colonies for best results. If I super with foundation, I have not yet had a single queen lay in the super. Put a super on with drawn combs and it is an invitation for her to lay unless above an excluder.

The entrance design of my hives is not conducive to running them as duplex colonies. Bees mingle across the entrance and wind up eventually killing one of the queens. I modified the bottom boards so each colony has a completely separate entrance on opposite sides of the hives. This has an effect on the type hive stand that works best since you don't want 4 hives in a square with entrances facing the same way.

Other than that, the overall concept works very well. I used Langstroth hives for 47 years and would never go back now that I know how easy square Dadant's are to keep bees.


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## odfrank

This was my best Brother Adam hive producer this season. It is from a 2017 bait swarm catch and has been doing well for four years now. My 42nd year making crops on BA hives along side several versions of Langstroth hives and the Brother Adam hives always seem to make more honey. The two inch deeper brood comb is an advantage and for some reason the two additional brood combs play to an advantage also. I have seven at this site and two at another.


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## odfrank

This site, also with my extracting room, is in a commercial neighborhood and I have recently been getting bee poop complaints from auto repair neighbors. I reduced the hive count there to reduce the poop complaints so no longer have enough hives to dry extracted supers from other sites.Hauling the wets to remote sites is expensive, so we stack Langstroth wets on the Brother Adam hives that still have the crop on. This picture is drying wets on top of the BA hive's crops.


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## kilocharlie

Big thanks to both of ya's. 

I started making the assembly clamping block yesterday (December 28th), and cutting hive parts today. It's raining off and on. I got a bunch of sugar pine with bird droppings all over it, so wire brush them first, then damp sponge them clean, mark & cut. 

I'm grading the wood - best grain goes to making frames, knotted wood with 3" of straight grain near the joists is box wood. I'm starting to think how neat a transparent plastic template would be for marking. Just slide it into place and trace so it always has clear, straight grain at the ends. A set of templates could be arranged to mark lumber between the knots, as they may fit.

The wood is various sizes, so I'll cut oversize and run them on the router table with the finger glue joint bit. I'll join them until they are a bit more than double wide and rip them into 13" wide pieces. My finished boxes are going to be 12.5" tall, as I like extra room top & bottom to avoid crushing a queen. Just requires scraping the excess comb each visit - no biggie. I usually build over-tall boxes and trim them down on the table saw after they are assembled. You know - hand plane one side smooth for the ripping fence, then cut-flip-cut-flip etc., until they are uniform and square.

I've learned to make sure the glue joint is near the bottom, to that the cleat handles are loading as many finger joints as possible and the scabbed-on section carries very little load when lifted.

Wish me luck, and thanks again.


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## Gray Goose

have a design question for those with experience with the 300mm x 300mm hive size.
for Michigan, what would be a total hive height to use for make sure the bees get thru winter?

my thought were to make 1/2 size frames.
So if I need 32 inches, to make winter in the 300mm x 300mm I would make 16 inch frames.
thoughts were for splits and to harvest honey, can take the top half and cut and stain.

Since I need to make them really no size is better than a different one. 
Was thinking of putting drone mothers in them and walk away.
If they make it then go in in early june and do a walk away split to get another.
So pollination and drone creation is the primary

in my 10 f,, a deep +deep + Medium is sufficient to winter. which is 24 ish inch high but bigger foot print.
if a example is needed to translate.

thanks
GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> have a design question for those with experience with the 300mm x 300mm hive size.
> for Michigan, what would be a total hive height to use for make sure the bees get thru winter?


I winter my 300x300 on just three boxes.
This would be in Lang equivalent - 6x6x6 (medium frames).
Each of my boxes is equivalent to 6 medium Lang frames.










This guy winters his 300x300 (half-frames) in two boxes (about USDA 4, in Russia).
Interestingly, he and I are wintering identicaly - both are on 9 deep Dadant frames (when converted).


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## jtgoral

Gray Goose said:


> have a design question for those with experience with the 300mm x 300mm hive size.
> for Michigan, what would be a total hive height to use for make sure the bees get thru winter?
> 
> my thought were to make 1/2 size frames.
> So if I need 32 inches, to make winter in the 300mm x 300mm I would make 16 inch frames.
> thoughts were for splits and to harvest honey, can take the top half and cut and stain.
> 
> Since I need to make them really no size is better than a different one.
> Was thinking of putting drone mothers in them and walk away.
> If they make it then go in in early june and do a walk away split to get another.
> So pollination and drone creation is the primary
> 
> in my 10 f,, a deep +deep + Medium is sufficient to winter. which is 24 ish inch high but bigger foot print.
> if a example is needed to translate.
> 
> thanks
> GG


This is how I think:

~ close enough https://www.uncledavesenterprise.com/file/bees/By The Numbers.pdf

The cluster is 20-25 cm in diameter (~9in) = 6 frames in the bottom box.

6 deep frames of honey means ~36-40 lb above the cluster in second box. This is how much the bees need in insulated hive where the roof is better insulated than the walls and there is only bottom ventilation, *I think.... *

Some Polish beekeepers say that the *cluster consumes in winter 1mm of honey above the cluster per day*. One needs 150mm of honey above the cluster for bees to survive 5 months of winter. The deep frame of honey is ~200mm.

How long is your winter?

Why only 6 frames for the brood?

A very good queen will lay 2000 eggs/day. During 21 days of brood cycle it will be 42k of eggs. There are 7.5k cells on a deep Lang frame. So the queen needs ~5.6 frames for those 21 days and then she can reuse empty cells where the new bees hatched. This is enough for the queen but not enough for the bees.

Those hatched nurse bees now are at 90deg position compared to being stuck in the cell. They walk on the comb and *every 1 bee covers 3 cells*. To accommodate hatched bees from *each frame one needs 3 frames*. So for ~6 frames of brood one needs 18 frames to accommodate bees from those 6 frames. And one needs place for those still alive bees from the previous brood cycle;-) It looks like 2x 10FR deep Lang boxes are close enough. 

One can make similar calculations for any type of boxes and frames.


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## Gray Goose

jtgoral said:


> This is how I think:
> 
> ~ close enough https://www.uncledavesenterprise.com/file/bees/By The Numbers.pdf
> 
> The cluster is 20-25 cm in diameter (~9in) = 6 frames in the bottom box.
> 
> 6 deep frames of honey means ~36-40 lb above the cluster in second box. This is how much the bees need in insulated hive where the roof is better insulated than the walls and there is only bottom ventilation, *I think.... *
> 
> Some Polish beekeepers say that the *cluster consumes in winter 1mm of honey above the cluster per day*. One needs 150mm of honey above the cluster for bees to survive 5 months of winter. The deep frame of honey is ~200mm.
> 
> How long is your winter?
> 
> Why only 6 frames for the brood?
> 
> A very good queen will lay 2000 eggs/day. During 21 days of brood cycle it will be 42k of eggs. There are 7.5k cells on a deep Lang frame. So the queen needs ~5.6 frames for those 21 days and then she can reuse empty cells where the new bees hatched. This is enough for the queen but not enough for the bees.
> 
> Those hatched nurse bees now are at 90deg position compared to being stuck in the cell. They walk on the comb and *every 1 bee covers 3 cells*. To accommodate hatched bees from *each frame one needs 3 frames*. So for ~6 frames of brood one needs 18 frames to accommodate bees from those 6 frames. And one needs place for those still alive bees from the previous brood cycle;-) It looks like 2x 10FR deep Lang boxes are close enough.
> 
> One can make similar calculations for any type of boxes and frames.


i have read the 1 mm per day as well.
my bees are derived from Russians and they keep a lot of pollen, so a big chunk of the bottom box is bee bread, and pollen.
thanks for the input.

deciding if the time and fasteners make a 2 box solution faster to make than a 3 or 4. less cuts less pieces same foot print.

GG


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## GregB

jtgoral said:


> Why only 6 frames for the brood?



Because it works and actually is convenient.
The brood is compactly compressed onto few very specific frames - not scattered over the larger number of frames (while being the same in numbers of brood cells).








6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator


Nothing but 6-frame boxes/medum-size frame (shallow Dadants, technically). (I guess, he still uses some deeps in the very bottom box - in that case they winter in a single Dadant 6-frame box + an empty super below optionally). Another version of pure by-the-box approach. No frame-by-frame...




www.beesource.com





Heck, only 4 frames for brood works just the same.
To be sure - these are Dadants.


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## GregB

One clear disadvantage of the foam hives - no critter resistance.
Making them critter-resistance adds up lots of construction overhead up front.


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## AR1

GregB said:


> One clear disadvantage of the foam hives - no critter resistance.
> Making them critter-resistance adds up lots of construction overhead up front.


I have had squirrels chew completely through wood hive tops.


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## Litsinger

Good basic summary published in this month's ABJ (attached).


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## jtgoral

Litsinger said:


> Good basic summary published in this month's ABJ (attached).


My choice would be Dadant-Blatt missing from the article and probably most popular in Europe. If I had those I would not simulate them by using BeeMax or Paradise deep+medium


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## GregB

jtgoral said:


> *My choice would be Dadant-Blatt missing from the article and probably most popular in Europe.* If I had those I would not simulate them by using BeeMax or Paradise deep+medium


I was going to comment exactly that - *Dadant-Blatt.*
If anything, about the most popular system in the Euro should be mentioned at the least in a worthwhile article (bad or good is less important - but nothing to sniff at).


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