# Splitting the hive up completely into new nucleus colonies



## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

The plan is to split up 20 hives completely to form approximately 100 nucleus colonies. What is the best way to find the Queen's? Going through them the day before and either cage or kill the Queen seems like one possibility but is there some more efficient method? These are all single deeps.


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## Andhors (Dec 7, 2018)

Why do you want to find the queens? If you don’t plan to requeen all the hives you could just split them. Or just split a few colonies and move the queen cells that are formed to nucs with some frames.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Even if I keep the original queens they will still need to be found otherwise I will be putting good queen cells into 20 queenright colonies.


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## KRhodes (Jan 31, 2014)

Take a spare brood box 20 queen excluders and 20 ramps long enough to reach the hive entrance from the ground. Remove brood box from bottom board, place queen excluder on bottom board, place spare box on q.e., place ramp in front of hive, shake all bees from original brood box on the ramp placing bee free frames in the new box. Repeat for the next hive using the original box as the spare. When all the bees are back in the hive the queen will be under the excluder.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

calkal said:


> Even if I keep the original queens they will still need to be found otherwise I will be putting good queen cells into 20 queenright colonies.


Not if you box clever ...

So - you're going to split each box into 5 (on average) ? Ok - take one box, move it away from the others (if necessary) and just do a 1-into-5 split. Spread those nuc boxes around a few feet apart ... and watch.

Four of those nucleus colonies should start showing signs of distress (although it won't be as clear as with a 50/50 split) - the fifth will have the queen in it. Then repeat with the other 19.

But - if you're producing your own queen cells, don't bother with the above - just accept a few losses and save yourself some time. Q/C's are cheap enough to mass produce - I often put two in the same nuc, just to make sure.
LJ


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

First, I wouldn't completely sacrifice all the colonies at once. I would remove frames of bees and brood...over time, and last brood harvest the queens are removed and what's left becomes the last nuc. This allows the old queens to produce you additional frames of brood. We do this every year, making 350+. Each nuc gets two frames of brood and bees, and a frame of honey and one empty comb. We begin splitting about June 15, and finish about July 15. All nucs get a mated queen. We don't ask the nucs to raise their own queens. Doing so just limits what can be done. Also, when brood and bees are removed, the frames are replaced with comb not foundation. Foundation slows down brood production. Finding the queen? No need...Just be sure the queen isn't on the frames of brood you harvest.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Thank you KRhodes. Just the sort of info that really helps me out...seems quick and efficient.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Thanks little_john another interesting and novel approach...and I would know which ones were the old queens because when I check for mated queens 2 weeks later the colonies with the old queens would have plenty of capped brood.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Another suggestion - if you're open to the idea of changing procedures - is to devote some of those colonies to the formation of 'brood-factories'. There's a description of how these work in MP's Sustainable Apiary video - links can be found at:https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?352071-Michael-Palmer-video-reference-list

I'm finding the 'brood factory' concept one of the best ideas I've ever come across (thanks, Michael), and have been using a couple successfully for both generating brood and the drawing-out of foundationless worker comb. As these twin stacks have nurse bees both in abundance AND in continuous feeding mode, this coming year I'm also going to try raising a few queen-cells within each brood-factory to hopefully take advantage of those conditions. Should prove interesting. 
LJ


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Michael Palmer said:


> First, I wouldn't completely sacrifice all the colonies at once. I would remove frames of bees and brood...over time, and last brood harvest the queens are removed and what's left becomes the last nuc. This allows the old queens to produce you additional frames of brood. We do this every year, making 350+. Each nuc gets two frames of brood and bees, and a frame of honey and one empty comb. We begin splitting about June 15, and finish about July 15. All nucs get a mated queen. We don't ask the nucs to raise their own queens. Doing so just limits what can be done. Also, when brood and bees are removed, the frames are replaced with comb not foundation. Foundation slows down brood production. Finding the queen? No need...Just be sure the queen isn't on the frames of brood you harvest.


Thanks Micheal Palmer, I really like the plan to let the old queens keep producing brood and bees, that fits well with my later summer splitting plans. With this plan in mind and since I have no confidence in finding queens (yet) could I, the day before, give the hive(s) to be split a new box with 8 empty combs and 2 combs from her nest or could I just give her 10 empty combs if I am feeding syrup and protein (because she would have no stores), shake all the bees down into the new box of combs then put the excluder on top and the box of combs (from her brood nest) over the excluder. This way I could confidently make the splits the next day.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

little_john said:


> Another suggestion - if you're open to the idea of changing procedures - is to devote some of those colonies to the formation of 'brood-factories'. There's a description of how these work in MP's Sustainable Apiary video - links can be found at:https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?352071-Michael-Palmer-video-reference-list
> 
> I'm finding the 'brood factory' concept one of the best ideas I've ever come across (thanks, Michael), and have been using a couple successfully for both generating brood and the drawing-out of foundationless worker comb. As these twin stacks have nurse bees both in abundance AND in continuous feeding mode, this coming year I'm also going to try raising a few queen-cells within each brood-factory to hopefully take advantage of those conditions. Should prove interesting.
> LJ


definitely open to this idea as I am still laying the groundwork for my apiary and will definitely have brood factories...have seen all of Micheal's videos...love it all. In essence, what you suggested works very well with what has been suggested here, that is to use the original queens in the 20 boxes to continue making brood and bees for the rest of the summer...wow, such great suggestions!


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

All great ideas for.splitting, but I question whether 20 single deep hives will have suffiecent resources to create 100 nucs. That would have to assume that every single frame was suitable for nuc making, something I do not see in my own apiary. Go with the brood factory idea and create 20 nucs per week or so using purchased queens. Or do a flyback split and harvest queen cells to create the nucs, just dont do them all at once. Huge amount of unecessary risk.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> As these twin stacks have nurse bees both in abundance AND in continuous feeding mode, this coming year I'm also going to try raising a few queen-cells within each brood-factory to hopefully take advantage of those conditions.


https://www.beeculture.com/net-gain-cell-building-system/


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

msl said:


> https://www.beeculture.com/net-gain-cell-building-system/


Useful article - thanks
LJ


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Hi JWPalmer,
I've always been a risk taker, not braging by any means because sometimes you win big but sometimes you lose big. It seems it is the only way I go. However I have a sensible brother and a sensible cousin who would tend to dispense similar advice and I always appreciate that and i always try and take it a little bit to heart as well. Thank you!


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## creesbees (Aug 4, 2016)

If you do end up splitting everything into nucs it becomes apparent pretty quickly which ones have a queen. Usually the boxes with an extra pound of bees hanging off the front are the ones with the queen.


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## mitch30 (Feb 8, 2014)

Calkal

When do you plan on making these splits? What are your plans for the nucs after wards?


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## Ryan Williamson (Feb 28, 2012)

Last summer I took a simaler plunge. I split 9 hives into 60. Before splitting I fed and built them up to double deeps full of brood. I did it in stages over about a month leaving the established queens as brood factories or splitting a hive into for or five nucs leaving the parent queen with no brood but to receive all of the feild bees as I did everything in one bee yard. It was July which is after our flow is over so I open fed about 1000ft away to keep the little Nucs from being robbed. I built them all up to either single ten frame deeps our double five frame for winter and have only lost one of the Nucs so far.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

calkal said:


> definitely open to this idea as I am still laying the groundwork for my apiary and will definitely have brood factories...have seen all of Micheal's videos...love it all. In essence, what you suggested works very well with what has been suggested here, that is to use the original queens in the 20 boxes to continue making brood and bees for the rest of the summer...wow, such great suggestions!


i started Michael Palmers method 2 years ago with 9 colonies. Im at 41 now. I run 18-20 of the 4x4x4 MP overwintering nucs which i use to replace deadouts, use for increase, sell the excess ones, and use for brood factories and to stock my cell builder for grafting and raising my own queens. I could be at double or even triple the colony numbers using Michaels methods but time is the limiting factor for me.
This is i think my 6th or 7th year of beekeeping i cant remember exactly.

He is right when he says the biggest issue is what do you do with all the extra bees!!!!


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

JWPalmer said:


> All great ideas for.splitting, but I question whether 20 single deep hives will have suffiecent resources to create 100 nucs. That would have to assume that every single frame was suitable for nuc making, something I do not see in my own apiary. Go with the brood factory idea and create 20 nucs per week or so using purchased queens. Or do a flyback split and harvest queen cells to create the nucs, just dont do them all at once. Huge amount of unecessary risk.


THIS!


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Awesome!


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

[/QUOTE]
https://www.beeculture.com/net-gain-cell-building-system/[/QUOTE]
I really enjoyed this article but I am unable to fully understand the system with just this one article does anybody know of any more information on this style of Queen rearing?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

K, the article is about a basic system Free flying QLS and a Free flying QRF, just scaled down more or less this http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/ used as a starter and then moved to a 5X5X5 to be finished 
lets talk about were your are in your beekeeping and what you have for resources. Let me preface that I am NOT trying to be mean, or put you down, I am trying to get a better understanding of your situation
rewinding a a bit 
You stated with 3 nucs 2018


calkal said:


> Only been keeping bees since May 10th 2018. Purchased 3 nucs and by July had turned them into 18 hives when I found queen cells and I caught the swarms.
> View attachment 46129


15 mouths later you had grown to 100


calkal said:


> 25 of my 100 colonies


Now your talking about spliting 20 and are a long way from "being out of the woods" from old man winter. Is 20 all you have? or do you have some other resources to work with 
If 20 is all you have, what happen to the other 75 that lived threw the MAQS kill? 
Are these true singles, or nucs overwintering in a 10F box 

What is your currant cell building method?

I am just concerned that your plans are going to out run your resources and skills


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Well msl... it does feel a bit like you led me to the town square and then pulled down my pants. Your response does make me feel a bit icky, even my friends and family don't seem as concerned about my fortune as you do. So I will just say I have extensive hours invested studying with the very best...Kirk, Micheal, Ian and Kamon all of which dispense no nonsense solid advice, however I know some mistakes will be made...of course. I have 68 beautiful hives right now mostly in single deeps. Put fondant on the hives on Saturday they ranged between 5 and 10 frames of bees.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Calkal, I do not think it was msl's intent to demean at all. We beekeepers as a group tend to look out after one another so his words of caution seemed, to me, to be justified. By your original post, I too thought you only had 20 single deep hives and were about to put your entire apiary at risk by aggressive splitting. Obviously this is not the case with you. But there are plenty of threads here on Beesource where growth plans of the beekeeper far exceeded the bees' resources and the results were somewhat less than stellar. Carry on!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Well msl... it does feel a bit like you led me to the town square and then pulled down my pants


It shouldn't, by all appearances you have done VERY well there are many who can't pull that kind of growth off in FL https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...-first-two-hives-of-10-000-have-been-ordered-)
much less a zone 4a growing season like yours, so yes I had some questions. 



> I will just say I have extensive hours invested studying with the very best...Kirk, Micheal, Ian and Kamon all of which dispense no nonsense solid advice


yet you were unable to under stand JSL's (Joe Latshaw) basic and well described set up, and in this thread said 


calkal said:


> since I have no confidence in finding queens (yet)


That was a bit of a flag
Now you have 68 alive out of 75 you had in Aug, 9.33% losses in an area with a tipcal sideliner loss of 43% (BIP 5 year), sure winter is far form over, but your doing real well. you have hives with 10 frames of bees, you should have headed to the almonds 
Plenty of people have spit to far and gone form 75 to 20 in a winter, thought is was a fair question, especially with the high winter losses your area has 

I posted to see if you were worth putting effort in to helping, or another Scobby, any way sounds like you don't want my advice
that's fine, but I leave you with 2 thoughts
1 I suggest you get off YouTube for a bit and get a copy of this https://www.betterbee.com/bee-books/b114-contemporary-queen-rearin.asp

2 If you have 68 hives, why not pull a doolittle nuc out of each of them, that way you don't need to find your queens


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Ha, I almost posted a link to the same thread!


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Hey msl no hard feelings. Joe Latshaw's article leaves out quite a bit of important information. Not being critical at all just factual. It is always hard to get all the information out of just one piece of literature or YouTube video, it needs to be criss-crossed and re examined many times from many perspectives. That was why I asked for additional information on his system. I'd rather lose all my teeth and my left one than give up YouTube even short term. I have watched all of the National Honey Show lectures and some of them twice and some of them 3 times. Not to mention lectures from Clarence Collison and Lawrence Connor. Books are good too and I read those. I just received Contemporary Queen Rearing by Laidlaw about a month ago. I like productive talk better than this kind of talk.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

calkal said:


> I have 68 beautiful hives right now mostly in single deeps. Put fondant on the hives on Saturday they ranged between 5 and 10 frames of bees.


I'm curious as to what your intentions are once you get the number of hives you desire. Why are you doing this?

It seems that you are doing very well; however, it's not my way. I have always made my bees earn the money to pay for any increase in bees and equipment. Who knows? Maybe you won't like producing honey or won't be able to produce that much. You never know until you've done it.

Maybe it's not worth it...too much work for too little profit? That was my experience at one point in time, fwiw.

I don't know, but IMO these are questions you should be considering before going willy nilly to max out your hive numbers.


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## Malte Niemeyer (Feb 23, 2020)

Hello,

I thing you should pick out the queens. Because the worker bees will gather in this nucleus were a queen and open brood is in. The other splits with just capped brood or even no brood and just a cell are not attractive for the worker bees and they will gather in the neighbours when the came back. But this depends on wheater, how old the combs are and how much space is between the hives. 

The other question is how much hives you run at all? If you just had this 20 and you split them completly, you harvest no honey. But You have to pay sugar, equipment and other costs. Do you use Plastic- or wax foundation? I prefer wax foundation produced from own cappings. So I am save not to get chinese fake wax. But you dont have own wax If you dont harvest honey this season. The second problem is, that you will get a lot of honey next season, which ist need to be sold. I would choose to split 10 hives this year and the other next season. So you could rise up your honey production slowly. search for costumers and so on.

If you run more than this 20 hives, lets say 100... I would took out a broodcomb with bees ( without queen of course) from each and build splits from this. You reduce swarming in the colonies with this and dont have to kill queens or reduce your number of production hives. And if you replace the missing comb with newer material you "renovate" your hives with this.

best regarts,

Malte Niemeyer

Sorry for my bad english...


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## Swarmhunter (Mar 5, 2015)

Just a reminder- Mike Palmer breaks them into Nucs and puts in a Queen. You can not allow a stand alone Nuc to raise it's own Queen. You'll be disappointed. 
Jerry


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Malte Niemeyer said:


> Hello,
> 
> I thing you should pick out the queens. Because the worker bees will gather in this nucleus were a queen and open brood is in. The other splits with just capped brood or even no brood and just a cell are not attractive for the worker bees and they will gather in the neighbours when the came back. But this depends on wheater, how old the combs are and how much space is between the hives.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice and for laying out some more options.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Swarmhunter said:


> Just a reminder- Mike Palmer breaks them into Nucs and puts in a Queen. You can not allow a stand alone Nuc to raise it's own Queen. You'll be disappointed.
> Jerry


I will be using ripe queen cells that the bees and I will be making. That of course should work right?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

JWPalmer said:


> Calkal, I do not think it was msl's intent to demean at all. We beekeepers as a group tend to look out after one another so his words of caution seemed, to me, to be justified. By your original post, I too thought you only had 20 single deep hives and were about to put your entire apiary at risk by aggressive splitting. Obviously this is not the case with you. But there are plenty of threads here on Beesource where growth plans of the beekeeper far exceeded the bees' resources and the results were somewhat less than stellar. Carry on!


70's song; "You've gotta be cruel to be kind, in the right measure"

Nothing crueler than letting someone kill their hives by not speaking up.

If you feel a little awkward after delivery you probably did it all right.

If you felt a little happy delivering it, seek professional help.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

calkal said:


> I will be using ripe queen cells that the bees and I will be making. That of course should work right?


Sure it will work using ripe cells. Make the nucs strong with bees and brood frames with lots of capped brood.

By the way it sounds to me like you are doing just fine, and asking the right questions to move forward. 
Take the risks necessary to generate the growth you desire and try to limit any unnecessary risk. You seem to understand this already, that risk is inherent in this business, most don't get that.
MPalmer offered advice, so listen up as he's proven his ability already.

I went from 40 to 240 over the course of three years while making a honey crop every year and meeting my pollination obligations.
Even sold some bees coming out of winter. Building most of my own equipment helped me accomplish my goals.
Used a method very similar to the one MPalmer described. Took the risks, tried to limit unnecessary ones. I'm pretty much a stationary beekeeper traveling only a couple hundred miles from home to make a crop or pollinate. 

What are your plans going forward.


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## amk (Dec 16, 2017)

Good luck please report back how it went. Maybe my area or my lack of skills but giving a thin nuc nothing but a queen cell is not a good start. Even if she hatches in 2-3 days then after 4 days maturing and say a week to get mated and hopefully your loaded with drones that’s close to two weeks with good flying conditions. Two weeks 2000 eggs a day you’ve lost 28000 bees potentially per colony at a time when they need to be growing. 

Go big or go home I guess but I would buy some mated queens of a good pedigree and if need be sell a few nucs to help the cost your colony survival rate will be much higher it will pay for itself.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

amk said:


> Good luck please report back how it went. Maybe my area or my lack of skills but giving a thin nuc nothing but a queen cell is not a good start. Even if she hatches in 2-3 days then after 4 days maturing and say a week to get mated and hopefully your loaded with drones that’s close to two weeks with good flying conditions. Two weeks 2000 eggs a day you’ve lost 28000 bees potentially per colony at a time when they need to be growing.
> 
> Go big or go home I guess but I would buy some mated queens of a good pedigree and if need be sell a few nucs to help the cost your colony survival rate will be much higher it will pay for itself.


Hi amk, I would tend to disagree, the perceived loss 2000 eggs a day is not compared to a vacuum. the Queen would need to be purchased. Released and then start laying. to get to 2000 per day would easily take a week, or more, so 14000 bees in your example are just not there. Unless you move a fully laying Queen there is a start up time.. So really you have the queen cost and the time cost. Some purchase queens some make their own. And BTW the original queen pre split is still laying, so hypothetically Apiary wide there is minimal loss of "eggs" and in 2 week many more queens laying. IMO for me I would rather practice and learn to make my own queens. I have not had good luck buying and my eggs are in someone else basket.

A thin NUC with a Q cell is a mating NUC, if started early enough it can be increase for the year. If one prefers to buy and thinks the 14k to 28K bees gain will fund the Queen plus shipping then I would say it is their choice. However an egg loss due to hatching a queen is an odd calculation. 
to each....
GG


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## amk (Dec 16, 2017)

Well good luck if it fails I’m sure there are plenty of people ready to sale more bees lol. $3000 for 100 queens is a small investment for 100 hives especially coming from a colony sliced 5 ways. Success % will significantly increase that’s not really even debatable.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

amk said:


> Success % will significantly increase that’s not really even debatable.


I would debate that. 
rember that hive growth is linear, about 500 bees a day growth (emerging rate-death rate=growth). So with a popper split (4+ frames of bees) you don't lose egg laying, the queen continues and the hive grows at about 2 frames a week. Thats the magic of the plamer brood factory... same volume, same amount of bees, dubble the brood out put

The advantage would be if the OP could buy queens before he could produce them locally (IE pre drones), then the splits get a head start. They may have a hard time plceing an order for that volume of spring queens, most are allready spoken for. 

As for success rate, the OP has enuf stock to select local adaption form, and there overwinter survival rate will likely be much higher then the "sunbelt" early queens they can buy. When it comes to the north....a queen is not a queen is not a queen..


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## amk (Dec 16, 2017)

Did you read he wants to split twenty colonies out and instal queen cells I cannot comprehend how you can even say it would lead to as fast of build up as installing a mated queen. At first bees will emerge but you will eventually have a broodless colony or near broodless. And that’s all assuming it doesn’t rain and she gets properly mated right away. 

As I’ve said good luck I personally know someone who got 3000 frames of bees and brood and made 1000 colonies with queencells. Care to guess how many hives he has left. 

As for Palmer I’m pretty sure he posted about halfway through this thread he doesn’t expect his nucs to raise their own queens. But that’s my interpretation.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Did you read he wants to split twenty colonies out and instal queen cells I cannot comprehend how you can even say it would lead to as fast of build up as installing a mated queen


no I said


> The advantage would be if the OP could buy queens before he could produce them locally (IE pre drones), then the splits get a head start


if he can make and place queen cells 2 weeks before he can receive 100 mated queens its a wash..

if this was Dec.. Maybe
but its not, at this point in the game, for many of us(if we havent pre ordered by now) we are not going to beable to get queens before we could have made our own. the op is a bit colder so it might tip the scales. 


> As I’ve said good luck I personally know someone who got 3000 frames of bees and brood and made 1000 colonies with queencells. Care to guess how many hives he has left.


If you recall I questioned the OP on this as I felt he was falling to that trap, it was not well reviced so I walled away. 

my point was (made poorly) what ever gets him a laying queen the fastest will be the best for growth, but importing sunbelt queens will lead to higher winter losses, dosen't matter have fast they build up if they die before spring


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Amk, I hate to punch a gigantic hole in your 2000 bees per day theory, BUT... Do you honestly believe that a two frame nuc is capable of caring for and feeding your hypothetical 28K bees? Whether a newly emerged virgin, or a mated and laying queen, the number of nurse bees in the hive is the limiting factor. At most he is likey to have around 4000 total bees per nuc. The queen will adjust her laying accordingly.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Did anyone read that these are to be made in late summer! 



> ......I really like the plan to let the old queens keep producing brood and bees, that fits well with my later summer splitting plans.


Also:
The OP doesn't plan on letting the nucs raise their own queens either. He expects to place a ripe queen cell, to emerge and get mated in the 2 frame nuc, then build up and head a colony into fall. Big difference.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> Did anyone read that these are to be made in late summer!
> Also:
> The OP doesn't plan on letting the nucs raise their own queens either. He expects to place a ripe queen cell, to emerge and get mated in the 2 frame nuc, then build up and head a colony into fall. Big difference.


Good point.

I've recently been trawling through some early copies of ABJ, and there's one in which the question was asked: "how many colonies can be made from just the one ?" [my words]

There was a guy named Wellhuysen who used some kind of skep who claimed he'd raised 13 in the first season and 125 in the second - from just the one colony, and that included queen-raising as well !
Gallup claimed that he could easily better that, but he writes: "This we can work very safely; and if we are sure of a supply of honey in September, we can keep on making swarms until into that month. But to move perfectly safe, we must make only one or two at a time towards the last." ['swarms' being the term used at that time for any form of increase - nucleus colonies were considered to be artificial swarms]

LJ


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