# ABJ article, page 1148 , "It is the Mites because"



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

My digital subscription expired, just renewed but waiting on the details... but I'm blaming it on mites.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Mites are definitely problem number one here. But we don’t have the kind of agriculture that uses any sort of large scale pesticide application. I can’t speak to those areas of the country where the agricultural situation is different.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Roland said:


> I agree with the contents, and can add more detail. What have you seen this year?
> 
> Roland Diehnelt
> Linden Apiary


I disagree with the contents.
Neonic bashing is become a band-wagon fad.
Mites and their vectored viruses are problem #1 and nothing even comes close.
Nutrition is #2
Genetics is #3
Etc............
Somewhere down the list is pesticides.
If your bees are right next door to someone irresponsibly applying a pesticide against the label, then that is your #1 problem.
But in that case, the problem is the applicator, NOT the product.
I have been hit a number of times by pesticide application issues in my 26 years of beekeeping. Rarely.
Mites are every day, every week, every month, every year.
And they are slowly winning the battle with many operations.
Taking our eyes off the real problems and blaming the boogyman does not help anyone.


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## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

Very well put Harry could not say it any better than that


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

liljake83 said:


> Very well put Harry could not say it any better than that


Ditto!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

HarryVanderpool said:


> I disagree with the contents.
> Neonic bashing is become a band-wagon fad.
> Mites and their vectored viruses are problem #1 and nothing even comes close.
> Nutrition is #2
> ...


Very well put Harry 
Too many boogeyman believers


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

Exactly what I see here in MS.

Johnny


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Well, paid for my renewal, still awaiting the login details, but I would agree with Harry as well. Generally mites are my number one issue as I'm looking for tolerance or resistance and tend to treat late. Next issue is our falls have been relatively warmer and longer than typical, so the bees are burning through stores before what winter we have hits. Our forage is poor or non-existent during this time as well for the most part so I'm seeing lack of feed as my number 2 culprit as far as losses though. On the pesticides issue, I don't really see any, even though most of my bees are living in orchards right now. But, on a sidenote, in the TF FB group, there seem to be a lot of pesticide kills happening in November....... anyone have any opinions on that SS1 bacteria or whatever it's called as well? I haven't really given it much thought one way or another as of yet.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Mites here have been at insane levels for the past two years. Both my yards are within throwing distance of cultivated fields, I've never had a problem with pesticide kill. I've spoken to the commercial in my area and he said the same thing about the numbers of mites he's had to deal with the past few years. They are definitely my problem number one and always have been.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Pesticide kills in November, ... um ... that’s the boogieman


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Ian said:


> Pesticide kills in November, ... um ... that’s the boogieman


Yep. Boogieman destructor


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

My bees are surrounded by the great small grain desert with islands of legumes and minor amounts of tree and shrub honey. I know dicamba and roundup are used all around me. Neonicitinoids used all around me on all the pulse crops and canola ect. Life is good as long as I kill mites when required. Apivar is now inneffective. Apiguard on strong hives and vape OA are keeping my mite levels very low.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Hmmmmm... Thank you for all of your comments. I am glad you are not having any spray issues.

Our situation is much like that in the article. We get excited when we find even a few mites in a hive, and see zero vectored viruses. We do see spray planes and dead bees. Spray rigs in 15-20 MPH winds, and dead bees. Spray operators that argue that it is OK to spray when the crop or weeds are in bloom. A commercial spray operation that sprays every other year of soybean pests, and loose entire yards every other year.

How do you explain a situation where, everything else being equal, the hive numbers in a many yards go up by 2.5x and make honey, and in many yards make very little honey and are all dead(and that is where we see the plane)?

Crazy Roland


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

It's not that there are no pesticide kills. They do happen and probably always will.

Just, when I first started working for a commercial beekeeper, 46 years ago now, pesticide kills were a regular feature. Issue was the types of poison, methods of application, and lack of any education at all for many of the people using them.

Now, pesticide issues are so rare where I am at least, that I have not seen a hive affected by pesticide for many years. Things ARE better.

The issue I have with the Let's Ban It brigade, is they are driven by emotion and are almost universally ignorant, they would not know a neonic from a DDT. These folks have their place in keeping things in check, but please don't let them thrust us back into the dark ages.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

roland, are you any closer to identifying the culprit? are your state authorities lending a hand?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I’m pretty much in agreement with Harry as well but we also took a pretty good hit from almond spray this past year. We also saw some really peculiar losses through the summer but viruses are suspect number 1 for me simply because the losses didn’t correlate at all with the areas where row cropping was the heaviest. 
BTW, Roland I’m curious as to what you base your statement on that you see “zero vectored viruses”.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Vance, i'm seeing some hives where Apivar didn't do much either.... guess I need to rotate in some OA...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I test my hives every year, there is a back ground level of the common viruses
Now my neighbour who had a mite problem found terrific viral loads


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

To my thinking, if you are doing everything within your power to keep your bees healthy, yet you continue to experience unsustainable losses. And you are unequivocally certain that those losses stem from the activities of others, over whom you have no control. Your cause, to me, appears hopeless.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

Roland, I understand the problem your seeing. Sounds like you are having an applicator problem not a chemical problem. As I se it you have a cpl of choices. I assume your state has something similar to our Bureau of Plant Industry that oversees all pesticide application. You can start raising ****** with them to try to get this under control in which case the farmer will probably ask you to get your bees off his property. Or you can work with the farmers who will work with you and move the bees away from the areas where you have consistant problems. 

It may be easier to just scream the pesticides need to go but I don't see that happening.

Johnny


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Mr. Lyon - Maybe I should have stated that although we have seen virus symptoms in the past, We have not seen any recently. We do not migrate, and do not have brood before April, and after September. Do the math with Randy Oliver's formulas, it makes a big difference.

I have been dealing with Wisconsin Dept of Agriculture's Environmental Enforcement Specialists, but have been generally dismissed. I am keeping up the pressure. They do not seem to following the "Enforcement" part of their title.

I would like to think my observations are fairly accurate. We are one of the oldest beekeeping operations in the nation, and spend alot of time in front of our hive compared to "Bee Wranglers". 

Roland Diehnelt, 5th generation commercial beekeeper
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## RangerLee (Apr 26, 2015)

I would agree with Harry on #1 and #2. I would possibly place Nosema c. as #3.. of course genetics may plays a part in susceptibility... so genetics may rank higher. But certainly have been hit with some nasty Nosema c. infections the last 2 years in some hives while others on the same pallet show no infection... I have also found that for the most part the sick hives even with treatments failed...


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Two years ago, I went down to the Oregon State Capitol to testify about something and as I walked in the door there was a table with a couple of young ladies who asked me if I would consider signing a petition.
I said, "Sure; what are we petitioning?"
It was a ban on neonics. I don't remember if it was all or just one formulation.
I picked the pen up off the table and asked, " What pesticide are you suggesting we will replace this with?"
GREAT BIG GASP, with a horrified look on their face!!
" Well,,,,nothing!" was their reply.
I placed the pen back on the table.
"We must always have a suitable, proven substitution to suggest if we are going to have a voice in such a conversation" I said.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Roland said:


> Mr. Lyon - Maybe I should have stated that although we have seen virus symptoms in the past, We have not seen any recently. We do not migrate, and do not have brood before April, and after September. Do the math with Randy Oliver's formulas, it makes a big difference.
> 
> I have been dealing with Wisconsin Dept of Agriculture's Environmental Enforcement Specialists, but have been generally dismissed. I am keeping up the pressure. They do not seem to following the "Enforcement" part of their title.
> 
> ...


Hope you didnt take my post as a challenge but rather as a search for data. My take is viruses are getting to be more and more pervasive and an increasing threat to beekeepers. This fall I got APHIS results back from a sampling they took in early August. Admittedly a small sample with only 8 hives (out of 48) in a single location but I found the results quite interesting. It showed my results in the bottom 30% in terms of varroa infestation at only .6 mites per hundred bees and no detectable nosema levels. However they tested for 7 major viruses found in the US. There were negative readings for 3 of the 7 but I was in the 30th percentile for ABPV, the 40th percentile for DWV but most alarmingly in the 70th percentile for VDV (varroa destructor virus) and the 90th percentile for LSV2 (Lake Sinai Virus 2), similar to chronic bee paralysis virus. Given that I have seen some higher than normal fall losses despite not having particularly high mite numbers I'm coming around to the point of view that because mites transfer virus quite easily, even comparatively low mite numbers can translate to poor bee health if viral readings are high. 
I re-read the ABJ article you are referencing. Yes, some good points are made but I would take issue with the statement that severe losses started in 2006. My take is that is when bee losses got publicized and mostly because of who it affected and the steps taken to make the story get picked up by the mainstream media. By far my worst losses were in the early 90's when varroa first impacted our operation but but bad bee loss years have randomly hit for the 40+ years I have been in the business though they have certainly become worse since varroa showed up. If I hadn't read about it on the internet I wouldn't have even been aware that anything remarkable began in 2006.


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## pegorsch (Dec 19, 2010)

First of all, I am not an expert and I have not formed an opinion but I think the following is interesting. 

I had a number of beekeepers in Wisconsin report to me that they saw heavy losses in late summer that were not due to mites or viruses. Having said that, my experience and that of some beekeepers local to me is that i saw some losses very much attributed to mites/viruses.

The beekeepers reporting their non-mite related losses to me were very convinced they had control of their mites. They are very good commercial beekeepers with many years of experience. They suspected Dicamba. My very competent ag extension agent was very quick to pull in experts from the State of Wisconsin. Of course, I heard the typical, "herbicides do not harm bees." but they confirmed very little Dicamba being used in Wisconsin (3% of soybeans are Dicamba "ready").

However, on subsequent discussions with one of the commercial beekeepers he said he saw so many more spray rigs in the fields in late summer. This reminded me of a conversation that I had with a soybean grower who was fighting white mold. He said it was widespread because of all the rain we received. I went back to my ag agent and one of the comments he forwarded to me is interesting (copied below). Did fungicides cause many beeyards to crash in the late summer/early fall?

Here are his comments:

_"This observation might be linked to the increased level of white mold in soybeans this season. We were predicting high pressure and folks were likely spraying more than in the past. Ratings of white mold around the state indicate that there was a lot of pressure out there. This likely means that yes, more sprayers where probably out spraying fungicide to target this disease during the soybean bloom period.

With that said, I know there have been some studies that have examined fungicide and bee colony interactions. Many of these have been done in fruit and veg crops and I’m less familiar with studies in row crops, and specifically soybean. Do honey bees forage at all in soybean? I’m not an entomologist and my understanding is that they don’t. So as far as picking up soybean pollen with fungicide residue, I’m not sure that this would be a widespread issue. However, off target direct application to honey bees flying through would be plausible. I’m again just not sure how many bees would be flying through soybeans relative to other crops like fruits and veggies. I have cc’ed Bryan Jensen and Russ Groves here who would better be able to comment on the insect-side of things here.

Finally, there would be several specific products being used for white mold control. It would be pyraclostrobin, boscalid, prothioconazole, and trifloxystrobin. Not much has been published on these specific fungicides and bee health, as these are likely used more in row crop production. However, their effects on bee health might be similar to published studies, if they are making their way to the colony.

Hoping the entomologists might have more comments on the level of fungicide exposure that we might see in soybean.

Damon

-- 
Damon L. Smith, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor and Extension Specialist
Field Crops Pathology

University of Wisconsin-Madison
Department of Plant Pathology
1630 Linden Drive
Madison, WI 53706-1598"_


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Two years ago, I went down to the Oregon State Capitol to testify about something and as I walked in the door there was a table with a couple of young ladies who asked me if I would consider signing a petition.
> I said, "Sure; what are we petitioning?"
> It was a ban on neonics. I don't remember if it was all or just one formulation.
> I picked the pen up off the table and asked, " What pesticide are you suggesting we will replace this with?"
> ...


Exactly !!!!! :thumbsup:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Jim- no offense taken. I would rather you be brutal with me and find an answer than be P.C. and let this continue.

If the viruses are transmitted by the mites, and the mites are transmitted by the drones, what if there where very few drones in the hive?

Pegorsch- sounds like my symptoms. Thank you.

To the poster that suggested giving up - you don't get 165 years experience by giving up. Besides, Germans are too stubborn to give up.

Crazy Roland


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

No doubt the number one problems we have is mites. Having said that I do have a concern about the use of pesticides. This year we had a lot of people using insecticides in our area. I asked several what they were spraying for. One of the common answers was moths this year. When I asked them what numbers were showing up in their tests most times the answer was they did not test and had no idea if they were having a problem. They said it was less than $9.00 an acre to spray so they considered it cheap insurance so I sprayed. Our local Arial sprayer even had some spraying for grasshoppers. You had to look to find a hopper in our area but some sprayed for them anyway.


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

Not trying to turn this into a pesticide thread, but may be useful info. 

I realize that I'm am possibly too small scale to post here, but I had 1000 acres of dicamba soybeans this year, and had half my 60 hive amongst them, all doing well. Many of which I sprayed dicamba within 10 feet of the hives, during daytime hours, as the label requires. I can attest that there were never any indications that it caused a problem inside my hives, or with my foraging force. I did however notice that there was a correlation between queen returns and my spray activity. Not sure if perhaps I mighta sprayed/killed the queens with chems, or if maybe they were refused entry because they smelled. Might've even had a case of lost their way home, or unrelated, I suppose. 

25% of my hives were along fields that got sprayed via airplane for moths, most were sprayed with prevathon, which is supposed to be more bee friendly. It wasn't a year where much fungicide was needed, but a few do include it if they have to spray for moths. All hives produced and grew well.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Just to be clear. The beekeeping world is a large and diverse one. In no way am i saying that pesticides don't have any detrimental effect to bees. I've experienced lots of pesticide damage and losses to bees through the years including a few pretty serious events in the almond orchards in recent years involving (allegedly) fungicides and most any beekeeper doing much pollination has their own stories as well. Where I diverge from some is in blaming any unexplained losses on virtually undetectable trace amounts of neonics without any solid data to support such claims. Clearly neonics are pretty toxic and can easily do damage to a hive but just as clearly many beekeepers consistently raise very strong hives sitting alongside such fields. I claim no scientific expertise but my common sense tells me to first look for the most obvious solution to any problem and in the case of bee health I will continue to believe that the varroa/virus issue is the "elephant in the room".


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Dicamba is a herbicide and my first thought is that herbicides do not significantly affect honey bees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicamba


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The other elephant in the room...test your hive products for chem residues, Amitraz compounds dwarf anything farmers put out there.

But we don’t wAnt to talk about that, because if we were stripped the opportunity to use amitraz right now, we’d see huge economic losses


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ian - did that. Less than 20 PPM coumophos, which we never used. It must have come from the wax foundation.

Jim - I agree that mites/viruses are deadly, but the last time the Inspector stopped by, he could not find any.

I have contacted the Author, and invited her here to comment.

Crazy Roland


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Roland said:


> Ian - did that. Less than 20 PPM coumophos, which we never used. It must have come from the wax foundation.
> 
> Jim - I agree that mites/viruses are deadly, but the last time the Inspector stopped by, he could not find any.
> 
> ...


The big questions here would be when did you test and how did you test? I've done ether rolls in the spring when queens are actively expanding the brood nest and been hard pressed to find a mite. Try that same test in the fall with little to no brood in the hives and I'd be shocked to find a 1/2 cup sample that yields nary a mite.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

As I reread the piece in the ABJ, I was unable to determine who the author is. Is it obvious and I overlooked it?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i don't see it either dan. the piece is in the 'news notes' section and does not list the author. i notice that only 1 out of 8 pieces in that section list the author.

you might be able to get an answer at:

[email protected]


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Jim, what's your opinion on VDV, never really heard of it until now, but some quick reading shows it's very similar to DWV and maybe be just a variant as they're 85% similar in genome. I started reading the article as I got my subscription renewed.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

JRG13 said:


> Jim, what's your opinion on VDV, never really heard of it until now, but some quick reading shows it's very similar to DWV and maybe be just a variant as they're 85% similar in genome. I started reading the article as I got my subscription renewed.


Its the first I've heard of it as well and ya, its got me concerned. The thing with viruses is what the heck do you do about it aside from trying to keep your mite numbers low. Just one of those things that has to run its course I suppose.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Jim - The supers where on, populations where up. 

By contacting the Editor of ABJ, I learned the author and have contacted her. I invited her to join us. I will ask her if I may divulge her name.

Crazy Roland


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I received permission:

Michele Colopy

Program Director

Pollinator Stewardship Council

1624 Idlewood Ave

Akron, OH 44313


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

That explains a lot.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

How so Broke-T?

Crazy Roland


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

As a group they are very anti pesticide.

Johnny


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Point taken. Is there any false information in the article ?

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Roland said:


> Ian - did that. Less than 20 PPM coumophos, which we never used. It must have come from the wax foundation.


At the most recent ESHPA Fall Mtng and number of people who know these things stated that there is no commercially available beeswax that is not contaminated with Coumaphas. No foundation that doesn't have it in it.

On top of that, a large beekeeper who coats his plastic foundation with his own wax still shows Choumaphas, even though he hasn't used Checkmite in 20 years. 

Makes one wonder if it isn't coming from outside of his operation. I know the stuff is persistant, but this is rediculous.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

The author leads off with a quote from Jeff Pettis. He says that even if mites disappeared entirely beekeepers would still be challenged. Not many would argue with that, I believe.
I think anyone could cherry pick studies that support their opinions and write a piece that, without more knowledge, a reader could take away a narrow view. It happens all the time.
I doubt if many beekeepers would disagree that pesticides are a serious problem. But, as you’ve seen in this thread, most still think that varroa are problem number one. 

As an aside, I recently read the results of a citizen scientists’ study conducted over the past few decades in Germany, I believe. They collected insects from the same areas, using the same techniques periodically and measured the mass of those collected insects. They determined that over the past three decades the insect mass has declined over 75%. 

Twenty years ago on any summer evening, if I drove to town my windshield would be so littered with dead bugs that the windshield washer would only smear it into an opaque mess. I’d have to stop at a gas station to really clean it off. I realized that I can’t remember the last time I had to do that. It has been many years. Is it a product of pesticides, as inferred by the study’s authors? Maybe. Whatever the reason, it is cause for concern, in my opinion. 
So, yeah, I believe that pesticide use adds to the stress on our bees. But…varroa are the biggest problem.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> At the most recent ESHPA Fall Mtng and number of people who know these things stated that there is no commercially available beeswax that is not contaminated with Coumaphas. No foundation that doesn't have it in it.
> 
> On top of that, a large beekeeper who coats his plastic foundation with his own wax still shows Choumaphas, even though he hasn't used Checkmite in 20 years.
> 
> Makes one wonder if it isn't coming from outside of his operation. I know the stuff is persistant, but this is rediculous.


I had some testing done on some of my own melted wax which was almost entirely from cappings. The only beekeeper applied chemicals found were coumaphous and that at the near infinitesimal reading of 7ppb and I had used it only briefly about 15 years earlier and it should be noted that I only purchase coated plastic foundation. If my math is correct thats about 1/400th of the 20ppm reading that Roland had. Yes, coumaphous seems pretty hard to eliminate entirely but any ill effects that might result from it (and I know of no proof that it does at these levels) can be greatly minimized by strictly using capping wax.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

jim lyon said:


> I had some testing done o


Where can I get honey tested for Amitraz and how much does it cost?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

odfrank said:


> Where can I get honey tested for Amitraz and how much does it cost?


https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/lab-testing/nsl
The Gastonia lab but its not cheap. Seems like I paid around $400 per sample but its a pretty thorough testing of most all pesticides used.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> At the most recent ESHPA Fall Mtng and number of people who know these things stated that there is no commercially available beeswax that is not contaminated with Coumaphas. No foundation that doesn't have it in it.
> 
> On top of that, a large beekeeper who coats his plastic foundation with his own wax still shows Choumaphas, even though he hasn't used Checkmite in 20 years.
> 
> Makes one wonder if it isn't coming from outside of his operation. I know the stuff is persistant, but this is rediculous.


My testing shows Amertraz 
No Organophosphate
Ppb of course, so extremely small


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I was wrong, my sample was less than 20PPB, not PPM. My error.r

Although it is not proof, I can support the lack of bugs on the windshield in the last decade. 

Crazy Roland


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

"“Lake Sinai” was derived from the name of the lake (Lake Sinai) in South Dakota, USA, which was near the site where the honey bee samples were obtained from which LSVs were originally discovered"

Jim Lyon I wanted to read up a little bit on LSV-1 and 2. I wasn't aware that it was first discovered in S.D. Interesting.


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## farmdon (Jan 2, 2007)

Are you seeing Amitraz or a metabolite of Amitraz. They are not the same. When human workers are tested for pot use, it is a metabolite that is found within 30 days. If it was the drug THC, then the high would last 30 days.


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## GoodyFarms (Jul 10, 2016)

Here's the article published on the pollinator stewardship site:
http://pollinatorstewardship.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Its-the-Mites-Because.pdf

She definitely cherry picks her sources and is making some very generalized claims. Her last sentence is quite telling of her lack of knowledge in the area. 

*"If it is just varroa mites impacting the health of honey bees, what has caused the decline in Monarch butterflies?"*

The largest contributor to the demise of the Monarch is loss of habitat in its winter migration grounds in Mexico. She argues for us to not assign a single cause (mites) to the decline of bees yet assigns a single cause to the demise of the Monarch butterfly.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

_Research is showing however, that varroa mites exposed to sublethal levels of these same pesticides go into hyper breeding mode._
She doesn't site a sorce for this, does any have one?

she seems to take another shot at it here _Research shows bees exposed to low levels of pesticides have higher varroa mite loads._ she sites http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/royprsb/282/1820/20151738.full.pdf
(unless I am missing something) thats not at all what it says... " the interaction between V. destructor and imidacloprid reduces the flight capacity of honeybees, where the effect of V. destructor was larger than that of imidacloprid." :scratch:


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I read somewhere that a lot of the decline of bugs on the windshield was due to the modern aerodynamic design of our modern vehicles, they go on to say go on to truck stops at night and you find truckers cleaning bugs off the windshields of their 18 wheelers. I am not saying there is no decline in bugs at night but do not see a decline in wax moths giving me hassles in the late summer.
Johno


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

GoodyFarms said:


> *"If it is just varroa mites impacting the health of honey bees, what has caused the decline in Monarch butterflies?"*


I haven't heard anyone saying that bees have one and only one problem.
To me, that is a "straw man" position.
However, most beekeepers know all too well that varroa is the #1 problem and nothing else comes even close.
We have a bird that can be seen occasionally diving down at the entrance and grabbing a bee. Where does it come in on the list? #83?
Nutrition is #2 problem _in my opinion._

Where I object is when the entire conversation is hijacked by the anti-pesticide crowd as if it is the only problem bees face.
When we allow this to happen, and it happens all too often, beekeepers lose an opportunity to work on real, meaningful improvement.
And as an industry, *WE* are guilty of just standing back and allowing the subject of pollinator health to be redirected, or hijacked to pesticide bashing by people that often aren't even involved with bees.
This does not help us, or the bees.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I can report that the windshield angle on the 63 beetle I drove today has not changed. It currently does not catch alot of bugs, but that does not prove anything.

Crazy Roland


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Last week, on our trip to Ohio, I had the chance to speak in person with the author of this article, Michele Colopy. Give me some time to ruminate on my impressions.

Crazy Roland


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## Swarmhunter (Mar 5, 2015)

In our area in Iowa the local co-ops and applicators are always very concerned that their spraying is done early morning or evenings near apiaries. Good rapport with them goes a long way. It is to bad that the State of Wis. hasn't been more helpful to you. Late season aphid spraying on alfalfa during dry years is just as detrimental as soy bean spraying. Good Luck


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## Aaronm (Oct 2, 2016)

Swarmhunter said:


> In our area in Iowa the local co-ops and applicators are always very concerned that their spraying is done early morning or evenings near apiaries. Good rapport with them goes a long way. It is to bad that the State of Wis. hasn't been more helpful to you. Late season aphid spraying on alfalfa during dry years is just as detrimental as soy bean spraying. Good Luck


Same over here in Northwest Iowa. I have my apiaries registered on fieldwatch through beecheck.org, so anyone applying any herbicides/pesticides give me a call to work with me.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

This is a great discussion. Interested in hearing Roland's impression. Mosquito spraying is happening on a private basis in daylight hours already in the Fort Worth Texas area, and has damaged some city hives. Pretty badly. Now I am not Commercial and I will duck my head and follow the thread.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

As a little sideliner I can vouch that it is all not mites mites mites, My OAV has taken care of any mite problems I might have had but due to the poor 2017 foraging season and the worst winter I have seen in my area I have to admit that I lost 8 colonies about 20% of my hives all in out yards and the reason not neonics but starvation I am sad to say. Definitely PPBK.
Johno


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

The drought down here and a competitive hive made it impossible to start a 2nd hive in 2016 until I got a nuc (someone's neglected swarm) in October. and 2 pints of honey harvested from 2 hives for 2017. It doesn't rain, nothing does well.


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## Aaronm (Oct 2, 2016)

I lost about 30% of my hives this Winter too Johno; had a week where there were several days in a row with a high of around -6F. Surrounded by food but starved :/
I suppose that's the risk I run when overwintering in Iowa. At least the ones that made it look really strong, so I must be doing something right haha


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

jim lyon said:


> My take is viruses are getting to be more and more pervasive and an increasing threat to beekeepers.


This is something I have been thinking about while perusing the Treat/NoTreat 'opinion' thread. I seem to recall being taught (in a class a few years ago) that mites carry somewhere around 11 of somewhere around 27 viruses to which bees are susceptible. Even if you can [somehow] manage to get bees to co-exist with mites, it seems logical that this practice will result in increasing virus loads.

This, of course, causes me to wonder about the incidence of such viral loads from TF hives infecting treated hives, either bee to bee or bee to mite to bee.

(It also causes me to think that this factor is one of the reasons why the TF crowd who think they can 'evolve' a mite-tolerant bee are on a fools errand. Even if they *could* instigate such an 'evolution' in a relatively short time {as opposed to 10s of thousands or 100s of thousands of years}, they are not simply asking for bees to adapt to [just] mites, but to the viruses they carry as well. I'm not a genetic expert, but I think I know enough to have an idea that this may not be realistic.)


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

badbeekeeper
It is funny how two people can see the same thing and come up with differrent conclustions. 
On BeeL, Randy Oliver made the same leap (how I read his comments) on having lots of bees together makes for more virolence in virus.

His conclution was you had to reduce the amount of managed bee populations or the only other option was to breed resistant bees cause what was happining now could not work. Exactly the opposite of using the same problim of bad virus but coming to a differrent conclution.
Cheers
gww


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Ya well no fine gww, as soon as you find some one who breeds and sells bees resistant to all the virus around pl;ease let me know where I can find them.
Johno


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Johno
If I knew what would work for you, I would tell you. I only really know what is happening with me for now. I don't discount others reports but don't expect that I could do what others do till after I do it. 
Cheers
gww


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Gww please tell me what works for you, how do you keep bees. Most folks complain about the problems caused by the genetic materiel from migratory beekeepers that cause them to lose their favorable genetics, however I am quite isolated, no migratory guys come down my way to starve their bees and the only bees for 20 miles around me probably come from my stock. Dont tell me to catch swarms because the only swarms around here would come from me and some of my escaped bees so tell me what I am doing wrong.
Johno


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

the mites and viruses are undergoing natural selection as well, and since it is counter to the parasite (and the viruses) to wipe out the host selection tends to drive the development of parasite/host equilibrium over time to avoid the mutual genetic dead end of all concerned.

the point randy oliver makes gww is alluding to is that our apiaries foil that dynamic by providing a never ending supply of host and there's not much we can do about that.

i believe i am observing reasonably good equilibrium because most of the colonies that collapse and die (along with the mites and viruses) do so primarily during the cold of winter when there is no flying and and no robbing and therefore no spreading.

i'm thinking that over time the colony killing mite/virus complexes that tended to be deadly didn't get the chance to reproduce while the less virulent mite/virus complexes that allowed for colony survival did. 

the most likely reason bees like mine don't perform when transplanted elsewhere is because it wouldn't take long at all due to the drifting of drones and foragers for a transplanted colony to get exposed to the more virulent mite/virus complexes...

and there's not much i can do about that.

jmho, and my apologies roland for straying off topic. looking forward to hearing your take on what michelle had to say.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

johno said:


> I am quite isolated, no migratory guys come down my way to starve their bees and the only bees for 20 miles around me probably come from my stock. Dont tell me to catch swarms because the only swarms around here would come from me and some of my escaped bees so tell me what I am doing wrong.


i don't think anyone is saying you are doing anything wrong johno.

but if that's the case and if you were motivated to do so it sounds like you have an opportunity there that most don't have. 

are you importing or raising your own queens? do you ever come across an overwintered colony in some old structure or in a bee tree?

have you given any consideration to following randy oliver's lead and identifying mite resistant colonies and breeding from them?

i've seen less ambitious bee projects receive sare grant money to the tune of $7500-$15,000. that might be enough to defray the initial losses.

jmho, but if you are truly interested in having bees less affected by varroa i believe you stand a better chance working toward your own that waiting for the industry to provide you with them.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Quote from squarepeg


> i don't think anyone is saying you are doing anything wrong johno.


:thumbsup:
Cheers
gww


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## roddo27846 (Apr 10, 2017)

In response to Badbeekeeper.

The way it works as I understand it is that some viruses are worse than others. Some may be not that bad at all. You and I are probably walking around with a few in our systems right now that aren't bothering us at all. So with us, it is with bees. The mites that carry viruses not so destructive have a survival advantage as they don't kill their hosts. There is something about viruses that lets some keep others from infecting their hosts. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can step in to help me here, but it goes something like if you have Herpes A with no symptoms, you needn't worry about Herpes C with bad symptoms. I am referring to that old video of the gent in Britain whose bees had shown immunity not because they had no viruses but because they had the right viruses. 

There is something else that is pretty cool and that is called "plague culling." You can look that one up if you want, but it sort of goes that organisms might adapt to a virus that might be deadly to others of their species. Then it is possible for them to use it as a weapon or defense of sorts. Sort of how the Europeans used smallpox against the Native Americans. Google it, it's fascinating.

Anyway, my whole point is to hopefully get you to reconsider giving up on the bees, because that's what you are doing. It is not the beekeepers who can make a better bee, but I hope the bees themselves can. Because if they are completely dependent on us and our Oxalic for their survival, they are doomed to extinction. What's going on with the bees and viruses is anything but simple, and no one knows how it is going to end. Extinction for the bee is something that should be thought about, because species go extinct all of the time. I don't think honey bees are going extinct any time soon but they are not exempt, nor are we.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

roddo27846 said:


> I don't think honey bees are going extinct any time soon but they are not exempt, nor are we.


We could, however, be just one more virus away from a major disaster,


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Squarepeg - wander off topic at will. 

I interpret Michelle Colopy as believing that it is the pesticides that are weakening the bees so that they cannot naturally fend off the viruses that are transported by the mites ( that are transported by the drones). The bees on that Island north of Denmark where able to reach an equilibrium with the mites in around five(????) years. They did not have pesticides, and where in an genetically isolated area. I believe they would have not done so in time if they had to also deal with pesticides, or to also deal with new viruses. 

Crazy Roland


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Roland, All fun aside, if you take Michelle at any value at all your making a complete mistake. I have debated her once or twice on the topic, and she is as close to clueless as one can get and still able to walk. She twist facts and figures, she lives in downtown OH, and last I knew had 2 hives. She has no understanding of farming and AG in the US, and no understanding of most pesticides including the ones neonics replace. She is an activist with one goal, and is paid by an activist group. I suspect she believes herself, but that doenst make it any better. Her and Ross Conrad are just about to finish off Bee Culture with their viewpoints. 

Mites are our problem, so it comes down to credibility, Michelle, or Dennis, Randy and a huge host of others with a lot of hives??? Its disapointing that and editior would allow that one to be published, but I suspect that kristen is rethinking some of that right now. I know she got a earful.

Charles


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

GM - Thank you for your honest opinions. 

Yes, it may be important for us to keep a distance from her. Can she help us? I believe very much so. She can be the "Bad Cop" to the beekeepers being the "Good Cop". Our enemy's enemy is our friend. 

Crazy Roiland


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