# Mike Palmer Nuc



## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

I've been looking at Mikes nuc setup not that we have snow here but at times it does get down to - 2 or 3c I'm thinking
that setup must make my bees stronger coming out of winter even if our winters are not as cold. Is Mikes twin nucs on the top
a 5 frame nuc running 4 frames? if someone can point me to a plan of his nuc setup that would be great I've done a google for it
but haven't put my finger on it.

Cheers Daza


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

4-frame nucs sized to be as wide as a 10 frame box when stacked side by side. The design is pretty simple, like any box.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

He is taking a deep and buts a3/4 divider board to make the bottom brood box. Then makes two 8 1/8 wide nuc boxes that goes on top of the divided deep. Then two inner covers and one normal top. Bottom board a strip down the center of a piece of plywood and edges the outer edges so that opposite corners become entrances. I have change it to two separate bottom board but set up the same way. This way it is easier to shake them into a hive. I use plumbers steel tape or hanger strapping. To hold the bottom boards on to the bottom deep. I hope this helps. I hope if I missed anything that Michael straightens me out. So far I love it. One thing I have started to use is Mann lakes frame feeder. In the bottom boxes due to the fact that it cuts down on burr comb. 
David


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

why does he have a hole in the top covers?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

To feed them if they need it.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

My-smokepole said:


> I have change it to two separate bottom board but set up the same way. This way it is easier to shake them into a hive.


I can see that.


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## WillH (Jun 25, 2010)

I am assuming they are as described here:

From Betterbee

The bottom deep is divided using 3/4" divider. Top has two boxes so there are two 3/4" dividers. Doesn't that make top boxes narrower than bottom chambers?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Yes, but the bottom box already has extra room for the 4 frames.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I take a standard deep and add a 3/8th to 1/2 inch divider and can still fit 5 frames in each side. It makes it a bit tight though. I think the idea to only place 4 frames in each half has to do with gettign the frames out later. After a winter of gluing everything in place 5 frames may be quite a battle. I see reason that packed space may be better for the bees.

Think of it this way. Bees create their own heat inside the cluster. That heat goes into bees. wax honey pollen or any other solid substance. but it does not heat the air. So the more stuff the more heat that gets saved. The more air the more heat that is lost.

Think of setting on a cold stone or brick bench. when you first set down it is very cold. As you set their your body warms it up. it does not warm the air around you but the bench becomes comfortable to set on. In the same way I think the more bench and the less air in a hive the more comfortable the bees can remain.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> Think of setting on a cold stone or brick bench. when you first set down it is very cold. As you set their your body warms it up. it does not warm the air around you but the bench becomes comfortable to set on. In the same way I think the more bench and the less air in a hive the more comfortable the bees can remain.


Or, think of a room full of people. No air conditioning. Surely the chairs warm up first, but it isn't long before the air temperature becomes unbearable.


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## mbevanz (Jul 23, 2012)

I cut deep boxes in half lengthwise and expand the overall width of the brood box by 2.5 inches. This allows for a very solid 1.5 inch x 10.5 inch divider board. Strips of half inch plywood(3/4 inch x 10.25 inch) are nailed to the side of divider board at both ends. The deep box is then reattached with the divider and plywood gussets on outside of box. A solid bottom is attached with opposing entrances. 

This allows for 5 frames in each side and 5 frame supers can be stacked. My telescoping covers for these boxes will fit my regular 10 frame equipment obviously, but my standard covers do not fit these boxes. 

I had a 4 over 4 colony survive Indiana's harshest winter in many years and am attempting several more this winter. This year they are all 5 over 5.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> I take a standard deep and add a 3/8th to 1/2 inch divider and can still fit 5 frames in each side. It makes it a bit tight though. I think the idea to only place 4 frames in each half has to do with gettign the frames out later. After a winter of gluing everything in place 5 frames may be quite a battle. I see reason that packed space may be better for the bees.


 I used 3/16" thin luan dividers tacked into place with an notched and divided inner cover as the bottom board. 5-frames per side. This was for spring mating nucs and they did very well with this setup. The dividers can be easily removed and the bottom boards can reused as inner covers. No alterations to the deep boxes are required

However I did not stack or overwinter these hives, that may be a bit challenging. I would like to find an unlaminated product, the luan warped quite a bit with moisture...a thin solid wood divider would be nice.


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## WillH (Jun 25, 2010)

mbevanz said:


> I cut deep boxes in half lengthwise and expand the overall width of the brood box by 2.5 inches. This allows for a very solid 1.5 inch x 10.5 inch divider board. .


As I understand it, the reason for using divided 10 frame deep (rather than separate boxes) is to have 2 colonies side by side so they can share heat. Putting a 1.5 thick divider will reduce effect of that benefit.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think the extra wood thickness would still share the heat once it comes up to temperature; thermal mass. I wondered why so thick though unless it is easier to keep stable since it doesnt appear to fit in a slot. I have used corroplast (election signs) but they have to have a slot in the bottom boards and individual divider tops to keep things straight and separate. The only advantage with really thin divider is the ability to put five in each side. Any who those thin dividers are a curse.


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> To feed them if they need it.


Hmmm I thought the feeder was in the bottom??


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## mbevanz (Jul 23, 2012)

I can see evidence of the bees sharing heat through the 1.5 inch year round. There will often be full frames of brood against divider in both boxes with capped stores on outside frame. The main benefit to the 1.5 in divider is supering. Everything lines up. Easier to keep bees divided when in the single box as well.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

mbevanz said:


> I can see evidence of the bees sharing heat through the 1.5 inch year round. There will often be full frames of brood against divider in both boxes with capped stores on outside frame. The main benefit to the 1.5 in divider is supering. Everything lines up. Easier to keep bees divided when in the single box as well.


Yep, that explains the 1.5" dimension!


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## mbevanz (Jul 23, 2012)

They are great mating boxes as well and what they were originally designed for. The last queens get to stay and build up.


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> To feed them if they need it.


what's your thoughts on two 1/4" thick pieces of hardwood seperated out to 3/4" a part so there is a air gap between the divider


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Daznz said:


> Hmmm I thought the feeder was in the bottom??


Oh, maybe you're looking at an old nuc box I used to use? That might have been on an old vimeo recording. It has a movable division board feeder. That was Webster's design. I disliked that setup for a number of reasons. Expansion of the broodnest is horizontal while my design is vertical. More of a natural setup as bees move vertically more easily than horizontally. The queen goes in the feeder so when attempting to transfer the nuc to a full size box...you can't find the queen. The bees build comb in the feeder, which takes up space, meaning not much syrup can be added which means several trips back to the yard to feed. 

Now I have a solid divider and a feeding hole on the inner cover.


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> To feed them if they need it.


Oh ok cheers mike so the tow top nucs have a top feeder?


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> The bees build comb in the feeder, which takes up space, meaning not much syrup can be added which means several trips back to the yard to feed.
> .


This was a lot of the reason way I more to frame feeder in the bottom box. No more bur comb. And no I haven't try wintering over this way. The only thing that I don't like about the set up is having to move the upper box to feed.


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

Any photos or videos on how the top feeder works


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

My-smokepole said:


> This was a lot of the reason way I more to frame feeder in the bottom box.


Huh? What?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daznz said:


> Hmmm I thought the feeder was in the bottom??


If you look at the inner covers on top of Michael's nucs you will see the hole he places a one gallon can of syrup over.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

This has been enjoyable to watch and read. I have wanted to ask if the top entrance hole for a double nuc remains open or gets closed during the winter for a while and this thread seems the perfect one to ask that in. I see the upper entrances in the video but there is tape there also that I would assume is for closing them.

I would be grateful to hear thoughts on top entrances when wintering a double nuc. 

Jeff


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

I would love to see the feeder vids I have seen have not had the feeder on


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> That was Webster's design. I disliked that setup for a number of reasons. Expansion of the broodnest is horizontal while my design is vertical. More of a natural setup as bees move vertically more easily than horizontally.
> 
> Is that due to the nest/hive being tall and slim?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Daznz said:


> Michael Palmer said:
> 
> 
> > That was Webster's design. I disliked that setup for a number of reasons. Expansion of the broodnest is horizontal while my design is vertical. More of a natural setup as bees move vertically more easily than horizontally.
> ...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

virginiawolf said:


> I would be grateful to hear thoughts on top entrances when wintering a double nuc. Jeff


The upper entrance is open in the winter to help with ventilation, and closed in the summer. If you are trying to get foundation drawn in the top box, the top entrance must be taped closed. The bees won't draw the foundation near that entrance, so about 1/4 of the foundation at that end of the box remains undrawn.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Or, think of a room full of people. No air conditioning. Surely the chairs warm up first, but it isn't long before the air temperature becomes unbearable.


If there is no ventilation. This would also lead to condensation issues. Notice that in your situation the windows in such a room would sweat as well. This, the hazard of sealing up a hive until the heat in the air is retained as you describe. 

By far the majority of heat in air as you describe is actually heat in the moisture in the air. Air itself is very poor at holding heat. In your example it is not just the heat that is rising. the humidity is rising. Then the heat rises.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

I thank you both for sharing about the top entrance.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do trees grow horizontally?

Yes, they are called "limbs" and they are often hollow and often have bees in them...


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

What size is the top nucs entrance hole
3/4" ?


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

If there's a good flow on Mike do you ever put a partitioned super on top of this nuc setup or does that set them back?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Daznz said:


> What size is the top nucs entrance hole
> 3/4" ?


Yes


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Daznz said:


> If there's a good flow on Mike do you ever put a partitioned super on top of this nuc setup or does that set them back?


Not a partitioned super, but you can put an excluder on with a super on top...as long as the queens can't cross under the excluder. Both nucs will work in the super.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Do trees grow horizontally?
> 
> Yes, they are called "limbs" and they are often hollow and often have bees in them...



Well, I guess. But, in my experience, working with thousands and thousands of nucleus colonies, the bees resist moving horizontally onto comb at the other side of the box. Something they don't do when the cavity is vertical.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Daznz said:


> I've been looking at Mikes nuc setup not that we have snow here but at times it does get down to - 2 or 3c I'm thinking
> that setup must make my bees stronger coming out of winter even if our winters are not as cold.


I'm thinking it's what's in the box and your management that will make the most difference in how they come out. I have used both divided boxes and individual nuc boxes and I find the individuals just easier for my management. I have had a very high success rate the last several years overwintering nucs. We have snow and cold but moderate- Mid Atlantic USA.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> Well, I guess. But, in my experience, working with thousands and thousands of nucleus colonies, the bees resist moving horizontally onto comb at the other side of the box. Something they don't do when the cavity is vertical.


In my limited experience also. I would say the their prefered setup in langs is vertical. They will grow up to another box before expanding outwards. 

However will build horizontally in soffets, trees, house rafters etc. All but one tree hive i've seen was vertical, mainly due to the nature a tree rots. One was in an old gigantic sycamore limb horizontally, a small hive. We'de probably see more horizontal hives in trees grew/rotted differntly.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The last talk I witnessed Roger Morse give was about his travels to Egypt the year before. Egyptians have been keeping bees in clay tile stacked like cord wood for centuries.

But generally I agree w/ Michael Palmer. He's the Master of what he does.


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

Note for beginners.

The screenshot below with extremely dirty honeycomb is a very good example how not to keep bees: https://sites.google.com/site/borisromanov/_/rsrc/1414940196739/home/very_dirty_honeycomb.JPG

Unbelievable!

Boris Romanov


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Whatever


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## knute (Mar 10, 2013)

Boris-

What's the basis for that opinion? Bees love well-used comb. If I put two frames of drawn comb in the brood nest, one freshly drawn and one nice and dark, they nearly always prefer the well used one. Same thing with swarm traps. In the dark, do the bees really care about aesthetics? Propolis is a great antiseptic, and also makes the comb stronger; I'd never complain about reworked comb if the hive is otherwise healthy. (Just trying to understand why you think this screenshot is bad)





Boris said:


> Note for beginners.
> 
> The screenshot below with extremely dirty honeycomb is a very good example how not to keep bees: https://sites.google.com/site/borisromanov/_/rsrc/1414940196739/home/very_dirty_honeycomb.JPG
> 
> ...


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

knute said:


> Boris-
> 
> What's the basis for that opinion? ... (Just trying to understand why you think this screenshot is bad)


Please visit this thread "Reasons to replace honey/brood combs periodically", where I already explained my opinion/approach: 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ons-to-replace-honey-brood-combs-periodically

Boris Romanov


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Boris said:


> Note for beginners. Unbelievable!
> 
> Boris Romanov


In what way? Dark? oh, wait...you said dirty. Does dark equate with dirty? The bees are healthy, winter well, and made a hundred pound crop. There's no entombed pollen. I can count on one hand the number of chalkbrood colonies I see during the summer. I lost 12.5% 0f my stocks this past winter. I raised a thousand queens, and several hundred nucs. The hives are wicked heavy and packed with bees this Fall.

What's unbelievable?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

That thread that _Boris _linked above in post #45 is worth reading ... but _not _ necessarily for the reason that Boris linked it!  :lookout:


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> ...The bees are healthy... I lost 12.5% 0f my stocks this past winter...


Based on my experience I can say the last statement does not support the first one.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

My first year doing a double stack divided nucs to overwinter with.
Last year they were in a single nuc. Spring will tell if this configuration is a
successful one or not. Also my first time with no treatment going into winter.
They don't care new or old comb as long as there is something for them to cling to.

Can you see the queen?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Boris said:


> Based on my experience I can say the last statement does not support the first one.


What were your winter loss numbers like Boris?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> What were your winter loss numbers like Boris?


And how many colonies are you managing? You think if any colonies perish in the winter, it's a health issue?


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> What were your winter loss numbers like Boris?


ZERO! Similar to the Hubert D.Tubbs result for his 2,000 Russian-bred colonies:

"...The evaluation continued in secure apiaries near Baton Rouge. Hubert D.Tubbs Apiaries in Webb, Mississippi in winter of 2000 had an opportunity to witness the Russian bees' durability thanks to a harsh winter. Of his1,500 domestic colonies, 1,200 to 1,400 were lost, whereas of his 2,000 Russian-bred colonies, only 2 didn't survive..."
http://www.beebehavior.com/russian_bees.php


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Putting Boris back on my ignore list.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I think someone put a (grated) onion in the ointment.


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> ...You think if any colonies perish in the winter, it's a health issue?


In general, I'm against your combs condition...

Looks like you ignore this typical recommendation: "...The bulk of the evidence suggests that new combs optimize overall honey bee colony health and reproduction. These finding suggest that beekeepers SHOULD ELIMINATE very old brood comb from their operations." BEE CULTURE, December 2008, page #61

Enjoy: http://www.beebehavior.com/beeimages/beelife/russian_queen_May11,2007.jpg


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> What were your winter loss numbers like Boris?


Funny I doubt you will get that answer Mark. G


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> And how many colonies are you managing? You think if any colonies perish in the winter, it's a health issue?


Doubt you will get that one either Michael. Keep up the good work. G


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

biggraham610 said:


> Funny I doubt you will get that answer Mark. G


In fact, I already answered to his question - see my post #52


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

And Tubbs Mississippi winters are right up there with Vermont winters right? But not sure what the correlation is anyway!


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Boris said:


> In fact, I already answered to his question - see my post #52


zero out of what Boris.......... I didnt see that answer. G


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Boris said:


> ZERO! Similar to the Hubert D.Tubbs result for his 2,000 Russian-bred colonies:
> 
> "...The evaluation continued in secure apiaries near Baton Rouge. Hubert D.Tubbs Apiaries in Webb, Mississippi in winter of 2000 had an opportunity to witness the Russian bees' durability thanks to a harsh winter. Of his1,500 domestic colonies, 1,200 to 1,400 were lost, whereas of his 2,000 Russian-bred colonies, only 2 didn't survive..."
> http://www.beebehavior.com/russian_bees.php


Zero of how many? And all those that Tubbs lost...dirty combs? Or are you now comparing apples to oranges. 

I challenge you Mr Boris, to manage a thousand colonies and have no losses...from whatever the cause.


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

biggraham610 said:


> zero out of what Boris.......... I didnt see that answer. G


Nonsense.

You have to read sqkcrk's question VERY CAREFULLY to understand my answer.


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> ...I challenge you Mr Boris, to manage a thousand colonies and have no losses...from whatever the cause.


My initial post in this thread was for unspoiled beginners ONLY. And I strongly recommend them to follow the typical PROFESSIONAL recommendation from my post #55.

Once again, in my opinion the condition of your combs (presented in your video) is awful and is not acceptable.

This is my last reply. 
I'm ready for new conversation with you about this issue only on one condition - your arguments against the BEE CULTURE's recommendation will be posted in any well known magazine for beekeepers.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Boris said:


> Nonsense.





Barry said:


> Boris, you call people's comments "nonsense" one more time and I'll have to do some moderating.


Some habits die hard


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

camero7 said:


> Putting Boris back on my ignore list.


How does one go about doing that?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

click on his name on one of his posts. You'll see the link to do that on the left


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Boris said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> You have to read sqkcrk's question VERY CAREFULLY to understand my answer.


Well here it is then..."What were your winter loss numbers like Boris?"

Now reading it very carefully, it merely asks how many. You say zero...very commendable. I and others merely ask zero of how many. If I had 10 colonies, I daresay I could winter them all without losses. 

So, I merely ask, zero of how many.

But you've already said you have made your last reply...unless we submit something at Bee Culture. Submit away my friend. I had supper with Kim on Friday evening last and I'm sure he would be more than obliging.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Boris said:


> In general, I'm against your combs condition...
> 
> Looks like you ignore this typical recommendation: "...The bulk of the evidence suggests that new combs optimize overall honey bee colony health and reproduction. These finding suggest that beekeepers SHOULD ELIMINATE very old brood comb from their operations." BEE CULTURE, December 2008, page #61
> 
> Enjoy: http://www.beebehavior.com/beeimages/beelife/russian_queen_May11,2007.jpg


Yes you are...in general. Of course you haven't got a clue as to the condition of my combs...in general. Only a few combs in one nucleus colony that are dark and as you say...dirty. And now you want to drag Bee Culture into the discussion that you are unwilling to have here and now. Interesting. Kim will be amused.

I doubt very much that you would want to pay the bills I have for new frames, foundation, and labor for building, wiring, and installing that foundation.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> That thread that _Boris _linked above in post #45 is worth reading ... but _not _ necessarily for the reason that Boris linked it!  :lookout:


Well here it is then......with my replies....

******************************
Some reasons to replace honey/brood combs periodically:

- Honey combs and especially brood combs become smaller in size and dark over time, because of the cocoons embedded in the cells and because of the tracking of "travel stain".

>>Smaller in size. Oh really. So I have small cell bees? Cool! 

- Honey/brood combs also hold reproductive spores of honey bee pathogens such as American foulbrood, chalkbrood, Nosema and bee gut disease.

>>Well, I haven't seen AFB in many years, even though I don't use antibiotics. I can count the number of chalky colonies on one hand, in an apiary, counting nucleus colonies, of more than 1000. I see no issues with nosema with apiaries showing zero to 2 million SPB. From what you are calling my apiary I would expect to see an abundance of chalk. Where is it? I would expect to see an occasional case of AFB. Where are they? I would expect to see deadouts from nosema both summer and winter. Where are they?

- Honey/brood combs also absorb and hold environmental chemicals (miticides, insecticides, herbicides, fungicides) and chemicals/medicine used by beekeeper.

>>And for that reason I have burned thousands of combs in recent years replacing them with new.

- Honey/brood combs could be damaged by Wax moths/Waxmoths larvae or by hive beetles. In addition, adult Wax moths and larvae can transfer pathogens of serious bee diseases.

>>Could be but aren't

Therefore, normally I replace brood combs every three years or when combs become dark-brown.

>>Well, I for one wouldn't waste a perfectly good three year old comb no matter how dark it was...unless there were cells of entombed pollen.

And finally, my advice for beginners: try to establish packaged bee colonies in virgin hives with virgin foundations to avoid disease transmission. Raise your bees in the combs with the proper cell size, but not in the combs that were contaminated and contain cells that were reduced in sizes.
You can get more details here: http://www.beebehavior.com/packaged_bees.php

>>So when beginners lose their colonies, which so often happens, they should throw away what they have and start again? The colonies died and might be contaminated with everything under the sun including wax moth poop and footprints that might transfer pathogens of serious bee diseases. Really, wax moths?

OMG Chicken Little....


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## knute (Mar 10, 2013)

Boris said:


> My initial post in this thread was for unspoiled beginners ONLY. And I strongly recommend them to follow the typical PROFESSIONAL recommendation from my post #55.
> 
> Once again, in my opinion the condition of your combs (presented in your video) is awful and is not acceptable.
> 
> ...


Boris:

Your anecodotal comments about another beekeeper with Russian bees doesn't really answer the question about why or if swapping out old brood comb is the secret to successful overwintering, nor does an "opinion" expressed in Bee Culture answer that question. Here's an interesting summary report at BeeInformed that's derived from the 2012 National Winter Loss and Management Survey, relating brood comb management techniques to reported winter losses. 

http://beeinformed.org/results/broo...ad-outs-national-management-survey-2011-2012/

An excerpt: "Another management strategy relating to brood combs, is the reuse of old combs from either dead colonies or purchased colonies. The survey found that beekeepers who reported that they did reuse old comb lost on average 4.7 more colonies per 100 managed colonies than those who did not reuse old comb. This agrees with the understanding that moving around old combs can put colonies at risk." 

But, this slight increase in mortality includes hives that used old comb from deadouts and purchased colonies, which isn't the same thing as leaving old "known good" comb in an existing, functioning hive.

The survey also found that there was significantly higher mortality the more old comb was swapped out, consistent with what one might expect from the increased disruption to the hive.

If one is a savvy beekeeper that isn't polluting the wax with lipophilic chemicals (coumaphin, etc.), is careful to isolate things like foul brood, and isn't in an agricultural area regularly doused with pesticide, it doesn't appear that old comb is by itself a problem to the bees. In fact, the extra insulation in brood comb from all those thin layers of cocoon laminated with propolis probably do a much better job of keeping the larvae warm during development than fresh wax. As the cells get smaller, so do the bees (slightly) but according to Brother Adam, small bees are capable of foraging further, and it's also generally agreed that smaller bees have a slighter faster development cycle from egg to adult- no obvious problems there.

I'll let Michael Palmer speak for himself, but I don't share your belief that old comb is automatically bad.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Boris said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> You have to read sqkcrk's question VERY CAREFULLY to understand my answer.


Oh Boris, there you go again, even after I warned you. Now you're in time out. :no:


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

Dear Barry,

Occasionally, moderators get thanked for what seems to me to be often a thankless job.

Thank you.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

Why is anyone bothering with this Boris person? Most likely has a few hobby hives.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

mythomane said:


> Why is anyone bothering with this Boris person? Most likely has a few hobby hives.


Forget about the number of hives; the gist of it is, does he have a balanced and broadly supportable, fact based theory, or is it paranoid, faith based, with cherry picked support references?

I remember a few years ago someone wanted to know methods to clean up and restore the shiny new finish on the inside of his smoker!


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Boris said:


> In general, I'm against your combs condition...
> 
> Looks like you ignore this typical recommendation: "...The bulk of the evidence suggests that new combs optimize overall honey bee colony health and reproduction. These finding suggest that beekeepers SHOULD ELIMINATE very old brood comb from their operations." BEE CULTURE, December 2008, page #61


Nothing in my yard is older than 2013 since that is when they started. But I have comb that looks like that. My propolis is very dark. Not sure I could say it was VERY OLD BROOD comb from the darkness. I know it does make a difference, but darn for 14 month old comb, I have some really dark stuff.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Here I am in my second year hoping my 7 make it through, knowing full well they all probably will not. Hey, I went from 1 overwintered colony to 7 this year. Im happy. Boris wont even acknowledge his hive count. He lost zero, , yeah right Boris. From everything I read and hear, 12.5% loss is remarkable. What is zero from zero? G


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

Deeds not words. Some people sure can talk.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

biggraham610 said:


> Funny I doubt you will get that answer Mark. G


He said Zero, didn't he? Don't you believe him?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Boris said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> You have to read sqkcrk's question VERY CAREFULLY to understand my answer.


So you didn't have any Winterloss? Is that what you are saying? Operative word being winterloss.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

crofter said:


> the gist of it is, does he have a balanced and broadly supportable, fact based theory, or is it paranoid, faith based,


Actually, old brood comb has been shown to carry increased pathogen levels and elevated levels of contaminates. I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying Mr. Boris is wrong about some of his dogma such as smaller cells due to increased number of cocoons, has never seen my operation but for a couple frames in a nuc on a video he wants to criticize, and until he's actually seen and handled my bees he should button it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mythomane said:


> Why is anyone bothering with this Boris person? Most likely has a few hobby hives.


Why not, we bother w/ others on beesource too. Why not Boris?


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> ...and until he's actually seen and handled my bees he should button it.


Think Barry already helped him out with that. At least for now.


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## xphoney (Nov 7, 2014)

This brings up a couple of questions for me. At what point do people retire comb.... ie. What criteria do people use to determine when to replace?

Mike mentioned entombed pollen.

Second question..... Do people melt it down for wax then?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dave Mendes, a large hive count commercial beekeeper, said just yesterday that he replaces 1/4 of his comb annually. Some of it sold, I imagine, and some rendered.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Dave Mendes, a large hive count commercial beekeeper, said just yesterday that he replaces 1/4 of his comb annually. Some of it sold, I imagine, and some rendered.


Mark, how was the meeting? Hows the weather up there? G


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

What I want to know is why he gets silenced for saying others comments are nonsense. yet every other person in this thread can call his nonsense and do so in far lengthier and flowery styles? They even go as far as calling him a liar. But that is not to insulting? You have a serious double standard.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

biggraham610 said:


> Mark, how was the meeting? Hows the weather up there? G


More like a PM sort of question or better answered in another Thread.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I will use the comb until the workers are too small maybe the wrong term but regressed?
Or they let the cells harden up with pollen that the queen cannot lay in there anymore. Yes, I 
will melt the comb down for the wax.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I will use the comb until the workers are too small maybe the wrong term but regressed?

According to Dr. Roy Grout's research the bees will chew them out when they reach a threshold below what the bees want.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

beepro said:


> I will use the comb until the workers are too small


How long does this take in your apiary?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Is there any truth in the bees will just move out if the comb gets to old or for other reasons that the comb or hive has reached the end of it usefulness?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not that I know of Daniel Y. I have seen some really old comb still in use and some that had been long in storage, decades, that when bees are put on it bees used. It seems to me that bees will rework comb if need arises, but they won't abandon comb. Bees are somewhat constantly cleaning comb for different uses, rejuvenating it in effect. 

Seems to me I recall seeing or hearing of bees moving away from AFB infected comb that they could not clean out of the diseased material. But I have also seen, first hand, AFB infected combs put on strong hives for bees to move up into for making splits and they did and spilts were made. DISCLAIMER : Do not do that anyone. I'm just saying I have seen it done on purpose and it worked. So bees don't always avoid or leave AFB infected comb.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks Mark, Your reply would be consistent with my observations. I have seen bees tear out complete sections of comb and rework it. Not in the brood nest. Not yet anyway.

Your example of the AFB comb is understood. Just because something can be done does not make it a good idea. I don't think I'll bee looking for an AFB infected comb anytime soon. I am not entirely certain I don't have some as it is. I've never diagnosed the disease before. But my population growth does not seem consistent with my brood nests this year. I have been so focused on lack of nectar and no honey to think about it much. Kind of like a cant see the storm due to all the rain maybe.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

crofter said:


> I remember a few years ago someone wanted to know methods to clean up and restore the shiny new finish on the inside of his smoker!


How do you do that?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

snl said:


> How do you do that?


My first suggestion would be a lye solution to cook out the worst of it. Then metal polish. Not sure how useful the smoker would be when you are done. but it might be bright and shiny. I have another solution that most likely woudl work. but I am not going to even mention it. because you know someone would try it and end up getting hurt. Suggesting lye is bad enough.

Let me suggest a better solution though. There is a new word for anyone that is worried about how dirty their smoker is. that is not dirt. It is Patina. A brand new shiny smoker is serious flawed it has no Patina which causes it to be far less effective. Patina is what gives a smoker its true value.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> Your example of the AFB comb is understood. Just because something can be done does not make it a good idea.


It was someone else's doing and under special circumstances and I don't think I would have done it myself even under those circumstances, but ya never know until faced w/ the same situation. I could PM you the details as an explanation, but I don't know what benefit to anyone that would be. Just another story.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

snl said:


> How do you do that?


And why? To pass it off as new? To build a table lamp out of it?


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