# Total Cross Comb question...



## Skilter (Mar 23, 2011)

I have a new TBH... left it alone for the first couple weeks. I had trouble getting them to stay and finally got them working the hive. We have had strong nectar flow here in N Texas (finally) in May. Now to the question... The hive has totally gone cross comb... not just a little, like building from the corner out 45 degreess across the bars. What to do?

Should I wreck the entire thing and make them start over? they have about 3 good medium combs built in a week. Thoughts?


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

see these from last week. 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?255251-Cross-comb

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?255235-What-would-you-do


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## Skilter (Mar 23, 2011)

thanks for the links... I think the main thing is it wasn't level. I am starting to see in these things, being level is very important.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Skilter,

What kind of guides are you using? Using popsicle sticks or wedges I've never seen cross comb like that!

Best,
Matt


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Skilter said:


> thanks for the links... I think the main thing is it wasn't level. I am starting to see in these things, being level is very important.


That will do it.. Get the hive level.. then look up how to re-hang the comb straight with string, pipe cleaners, wire, hair clips etc. Once you get things straight they should keep going straight. they sound pretty solid so they'll fix it once you get it on track. post up some pics


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## Skilter (Mar 23, 2011)

I got it level yesterday and I am going to try and restructure the comb tomorrow. I am using popsicle sticks.


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## Skilter (Mar 23, 2011)

couldn't do it... 5 combs in the middle of the hive body. I gave them 10 bars and in my newbie ignorance I did not level my hive and they started cross combing to the eastern sun and the unlevel direction. thus... this is going to be my "feral" hive. I am going to let it do it's thing and just observe. I think that sometimes when you are dealing with nature that is the best course... It is a symbiotic teaching that will give you the best in the end.

That being said.... I took a bar from another TBH that was starting a new little comb that is building nice and straight and inserted it into the TBH that is not building straight. I don't know how it will affect things, but being that I have cast off this hive as a learning experiment, I might as well learn right? I don't know if they will take to building straight or not, but I will let you know.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Make a set of frames like this except to fit your top bar hive:
http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/removeable-swarm-catching-frames/

Then pull any empty bars out and try to release the sides with a knife. When the sides are cut free, flip it upside down and lift the box off. Now do a cut out and put any brood comb in the swarm catching frames and harvest any that is all honey. Put these back in the box as you go and when you have them all in, put an empty bar or two in the middle of those. Now you have something they can build parallel to.

The most important concept to grasp with any natural comb hive is that because bees build parallel combs, one good comb leads to another in the same way that one bad comb leads to another. You cannot afford to not be paying attention to how they start off. The most common cause of a mess of comb is leaving the queen cage in as they always start the first comb from that and then the mess begins. I can't believe how many people want to "play it safe" and hang the queen cage. They obviously can't grasp that it is almost a guarantee of failure to get the first comb started right, which without intervention is guaranteed to mean every comb in the hive will be messed up. Once you have a mess the most important thing is to make sure the LAST comb is straight as this is always the guide for the NEXT comb. You can't take a "hopeful" view that the bees will get back on track. They will not. You have to put them back on track.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

If you have a hive that is building straight wait till the comb is maybe half built then put a straight bar of comb on each side of the cross comb. I am also learning and did not have another hive to work with so I had to work through the cross comb to get some straight. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?255251-Cross-comb
It did not look pretty to start with but the bees are catching on (or I am).


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## EBClark (Apr 23, 2011)

I do not have any cross comb but one bar has double comb on it with bees moving in and out of the layers. Hives are level, since we checked with a level when putting them in place. What to do with double comb?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As long as it's parallel if it's too far to one side of the bar next to where the next comb will be drawn, then I'd add a spacer (1/4" to 3/8" or so) to get them back on track. If you make some frames you could cut the comb between off and put it in a frame. The main thing is to get the next comb back on track.


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## Desert Viking Ranch (Mar 1, 2011)

I also have one brood frame with two small areas of double comb, about 3" in diameter.They were built on foundation that might have been a bit warped due to the heat here. All the other frames in the other supers are fine though (running all medium supers for eveything). I just left it "bee" using the bees-know-best strategy. It doesn't seem to matter any during my inspections but I think eventually once that frame gets older I will replace it. I am looking at going foundationless anyway by swapping out a frame here and there until they are all started without foundation.


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## Skilter (Mar 23, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Make a set of frames like this except to fit your top bar hive:
> http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/removeable-swarm-catching-frames/
> 
> Then pull any empty bars out and try to release the sides with a knife. When the sides are cut free, flip it upside down and lift the box off. Now do a cut out and put any brood comb in the swarm catching frames and harvest any that is all honey. Put these back in the box as you go and when you have them all in, put an empty bar or two in the middle of those. Now you have something they can build parallel to.
> ...


Yep... my first TBH hive was a slow builder. I gave it a week and checked. They had 2 decent combs that were a little cross comb that I straightened enough to get them straight and they are ok. This one... it was much more aggressive and within a week they had 4 nice combs but they were building out from the wall and top of the TBH in the middle section (i.e. started at the 4th bar of the 8 I gave them) and are building a fan like hive across all the bars. Take your hand, tuck under your thumb, spread your fingers and you get the drift of what I am saying. I just wasn't paying enough attention I guess and was afraid they would attempt to abscond (they had already tried once and I caught them back). Lesson learned. Too bad too... they are the most prolific of my 3 hives I just started.

Problem is... for me to get in there now and pull the bars apart, I start ripping all the comb in half since it is spread between multiple bars. Also, it's not like I can just flip a TBH over to catch the bees. I certainly don't want to lose the queen.

I do have a very poor performing new hive (langstroth) and I have a med. super ready to go with foundation-less frames. I thought about just trying to cut it all down, tie the brood comb to the frames, put the super on the other super separated by newspaper, etc... but then, still ... how do I get the bees out and over.

It sucks being a newbie. Maybe I can take some pics.

Thanks for the help guys.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Also, it's not like I can just flip a TBH over to catch the bees.

I don't follow "catch the bees" but why can't you just "flip a TBH"?

> I certainly don't want to lose the queen.

Why would you lose the queen?


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## Skilter (Mar 23, 2011)

it is 4 feet long, two feet deep and on legs permanently attached so I cant just flip it. If I try to dump them and or brush them off and then try to scoop them somehow I am afraid I might miss her.*

(*thanks to your website and your explanation of the "queenless roar" I realized that when I first dumped the swarm in the TBH that the queen didn't make it and was in a little clump on the outside. I couldn't figure out why they were all buzzin and making such a racket, then I remembered your write up on that and found the queen on the outside!)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>it is 4 feet long, two feet deep and on legs permanently attached so I cant just flip it.

The legs would probably require help. Mine are just on the ground, so you just roll it...

>If I try to dump them and or brush them off and then try to scoop them somehow I am afraid I might miss her.*

You take one comb at a time. Odds are she'll be on a comb. But you'll have brood so, like any cutout, they can always raise one if you lose her.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

On my cross comb project I just cut out a portion of the cross to make some straight bars and left the rest. I put a straight comb on each side of the remaining cross comb and will let them go for a while (they are building straight now) until I am ready to take some honey then I will take the remaining cross comb out, take the honey and reattach any brood comb. My first top bar and first hive but it seems to be working so far.


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