# Heavy hive with cluster at top



## dug_6238

Heavy hive, but the cluster is already at the top. 
















Today is 23F outside, but the cluster was a lot more active than I expected it to be, moreso than other hives as well. Do I need to begin feeding? Does the active cluster mean that they're not yet clustered tight and that they may move downward tomorrow when the temperature drops? Feeding them would not be a problem, but I'm amazed at how heavy the box still is. Could the the warm spell last week have confused them and caused them to reform the cluster up high rather than in the lower box? I didn't notice any signs of any brood being raised in the top box last week, but that's not to say that something couldn't have changed since then.


----------



## Brent Bean

Your logic sounds good to me, if the hive feels heavy they appear to have adequate food reserves. I would expect them to drift one way or another to stay in contact with their food. I would let them alone for a week or so.


----------



## Michael Bush

This part of the country it seems like they usually spend the winter at the top. I don't know why. But some sugar on the inner cover wouldn't hurt.


----------



## Dave W

>they usually spend the winter at the top. I don't know why . . .
Let me guess . . . so they can be close to top entrance? 

Guessing further, if hive has an enclosed dead-air space under bottom brood chamber, ample room in brood chamber(s), and a well supplied "food chamber" on top, will they stay in "the middle" all winter?

Everything I have read, say if you find bees under IC, you should FEED, FEED, FEED.


>I'm amazed at how heavy the box still is . . .
Dont forget, frozen moisture in the hive and lot of bees are BOTH very heavy (two good reasons why "hefting" is a poor idea - especially for NewBees).


----------



## Michael Bush

>Let me guess . . . so they can be close to top entrance?

Actually they did it before I had any top entrances and they still do it. They do it for other beekeepers around here as well and they don't have any top entrances.

Maybe it's warmer up at the top.


----------



## Ravenseye

Mine are almost always at the top too. Sure makes it easy to pop the top and see 'em.


----------



## MountainCamp

Sunny day in the mid 20's is not unusual to have the cluster loosen and have them moving around. Your hives are dark and will absorb solar gain, vs. white reflecting.

If you are worried about them and stores, set them up with the sugar and paper, it will not hurt the situation.


----------



## bleta12

I hope you did not forget to put the top cover back on.
Nice picture.
I did not see upper entrance? Or is it in the back?

Gilman


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL

I've had hives die that I thought were really heavy. Well, they were heavy, with pollen. 

We are getting close to the time to reverse your boxes, if they are all in the upper one, you might consider it.


----------



## arjay

i have two hives that seem to cluster exclusively at the top; popping the outer cover invariably results in a blob of bees hanging off of it, through the inner cover. they did fine last winter, and they seem to be doing fine this winter. the other two hives cluster somewhere in another galaxy, i think, because unless they're flying, i can't see or hear them. they're busy on warm days, though, so i assume they're fine.

edited to add: fwiw, the top cluster bees are italians, and the hidden cluster bees are carniolans. maybe just coincidence.


----------



## Ravenseye

My top cluster bees are italians too.


----------



## MountainCamp

When I did not use the empty box the clusters would usually be in the South and West sides of the hive and away from the inner cover hole.

The empty box on top allows me to open and inspect the clusters location without disturbing them.


----------



## BEES4U

It must be a big cluster and warm in there for the bees to be so far apart.
You must have done some good preparations for wintering those bees.
The hive should be heavy on the back side and lighter on the front end. When you have to move bees by hand offer to lift the front of the hive and let Strong Man Max lift the back.
I noticed the electric fence in the background of your photo. Can you tell us about it.
Ernie


----------



## dug_6238

*Fence and other details*

Yeah the fence is nothing big, just 4 strands of wire all linked to a solar-powered fencer. I was not really happy with it so I hope to replace it with a Zareba if my wife feels like making a big splurge for my birthday.


















HA, yeah Bleta12, I put the outer cover back on. As for the top entrance, I prop my lids open just a little with small spacers like the ones shown in this thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215196

The lid sits a little higher in the front and allows the bees to exit out the hole in the inner cover and out underneath the front of the outer cover lid. This solution works well with my wallet too.


----------



## WVbeekeeper

As soon as it gets warm enough I have one colony like that which I will reverse 
the the position of the two deeps.

http://pxbacher.home.comcast.net/PinkPages/2002_Jan_-_Reversing_Brood_Chambers.html#Part1


----------



## Ian

If they are heavey, then dont worry about feeding. 

They have what they need!


----------



## WVbeekeeper

I never did get around to reversing that colony, it died out first.

http://wvbeekeeper.blogspot.com/2008/01/what-to-do-with-dead-out.html


----------



## dug_6238

*WV Deadout*

WV - that's a shame, sorry to hear that. Sounds like from what you've been saying that the rest of yours seem to be doing pretty well so far this winter. How are your numbers by this point?

I looked in on the colony shown in this thread last evening. Still up against the inner cover, and the bees in the cluster are soooo much more active than any of my other clusters. When I removed the outer cover, they were there in the hole in the inner cover, just walking around and kind of looking out through the hole up at me. All of the other hives had clusters that were pretty still and calm - slight movement and some buzzing but not much. 


Many of my other colonies are in lighter colored boxes, so 1:1 comparison in this case might not be possible... That idea about the color of this hive (dark green) gaining more heat from sunlight has merit - it's probably wise to assume that this is related, but I'd better get some feed on this one soon just in case. I can't assume that they'll move down as they consume stores, and we've got more cold weather coming. The box is still nice and heavy, but I don't have the guts to break it apart and reverse in this weather.  Will most likely try the MountainCamp Method on them within the next 24-48 hours.


----------



## WVbeekeeper

If the bees are in the top against the inner lid it would not hurt anything to to
reverse the boxes. If Moutaincamp can make splits or nucs with snow on the
ground you can reverse the boxes. I wouldn't count on them moving down one
bit. The colony I had that died had problems before winter set in, mainly a
beekeeper who didn't requeen last August like he should have. Hope your's
pulls through. That's the only colony that I've had to die out. All the others
look good and went into winter with new queens so I'm not worried too much
about them. Did you check out the link to the hive autopsy?


----------



## dug_6238

*WV's Hive Autopsy*

WV, yeah I saw that - it was a good read. Your blog is coming along very nicely. We look forward to reading more as you post it.
-dp


----------



## dug_6238

*Put feed on them*

Cluster is still at the top and quite large, so I will trust that if they move down they'll find feed, and if not, they now have sugar on top if they need it. 

Here's what I found when I went over to feed them today. They appear to be doing fine. Not as active as the other day, but still appear more so than the other colonies, with the exception of 'goners' I listed in my other thread. There's also not nearly as many on top of the top bars today either.

I think they'll be fine now. Here's a picture I snapped very quickly before I put the feed on them.


----------



## WVbeekeeper

That cluster looks pretty nice. I'm sure they'll be alright as long as they can get to the stores. I can see capped honey in the frame on the right side of the picture you just posted. Be sure to reverse the hive bodies when you can. When you reverse them put frames with honey directly over the cluster so you won't have to do any more worrying. It's a good idea not to ever nail any hive bodies to the bottom boards so you can reverse the hive bodies easily in the winter and early spring when you need to. I thought that maybe this was the came colony in your other post "Goners" but can see the color difference in the top bars through the ventilation hole in "Goners".


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Why??*

>Here's what I found when I went over to feed them today. They appear to be doing fine.<

Dug, Why are you feeding these bees?? They look perfect to me. What you see is the top of the cluster. And, they're surrounded by honey. 

I've been following these "feeding" posts. It seems to me that too many beekeepers are feeding too much. They feed not because the bees need it...which should have been done in the fall so the bees could ripen the syrup, but because someone asked "did you feed your bees yet," or because they feel it good insurance. Feeding a colony like this, that already has plenty of honey, isn't necessary, and doesn't really do the bees any good. It makes them more active at a time when they should be in a quiet cluster...like the ones in this picture. Dumping granulated sugar on them really isn't necessary, and should only be done in an emergency situation, and not as part of the normal routine. Bees have been wintering in the north for eons of time. They know exactly what to do. If there's a proper cluster of young bees, and enough honey...like the cluster in the photo, leave them alone until spring. Don't be mucking them up with syrup or granulated sugar when they don't need it.

Just my opinion after wintering bees in the north for 35 years...where the bees don't have winter flights for 5 months in some years.


----------



## bleta12

That is exactly my feeling Mike, feeding on top with dry sugar should not be a routine but only part of a emergency intervention to save the bees from starvation, mainly in late winter when temperatures are low and dont permit liquid feeding. This kind of feeding is done when the bees are very light on honey and they are on top of the inner cover on a cold day. 
The need for such feeding should remind us that we failed in our wintering preparation to provide reserves to the colonies that need it. On the other hand the colonies that need our intervention on the fall may have other problems mostly related with varroa.

Giving dry suger on top is not a new concept, it is very old and it only purpose is the survival of the colony.

The bees on the last picture dont need any feeding, they have plenty of honey and are located in the center. 

Gilman




Michael Palmer said:


> >Here's what I found when I went over to feed them today. They appear to be doing fine.<
> 
> Dug, Why are you feeding these bees?? They look perfect to me. What you see is the top of the cluster. And, they're surrounded by honey.
> 
> I've been following these "feeding" posts. It seems to me that too many beekeepers are feeding too much. They feed not because the bees need it...which should have been done in the fall so the bees could ripen the syrup, but because someone asked "did you feed your bees yet," or because they feel it good insurance. Feeding a colony like this, that already has plenty of honey, isn't necessary, and doesn't really do the bees any good. It makes them more active at a time when they should be in a quiet cluster...like the ones in this picture. Dumping granulated sugar on them really isn't necessary, and should only be done in an emergency situation, and not as part of the normal routine. Bees have been wintering in the north for eons of time. They know exactly what to do. If there's a proper cluster of young bees, and enough honey...like the cluster in the photo, leave them alone until spring. Don't be mucking them up with syrup or granulated sugar when they don't need it.
> 
> Just my opinion after wintering bees in the north for 35 years...where the bees don't have winter flights for 5 months in some years.


----------



## Jeffzhear

Michael Palmer said:


> "...Don't be mucking them up with syrup or granulated sugar when they don't need it.
> 
> Just my opinion after wintering bees in the north for 35 years...where the bees don't have winter flights for 5 months in some years.


Mike, 

I started this year using granulated sugar in an empty box on top for two reasons. The first was to control moisture and the second to offer an insurance policy for light hives. However, I did put granulated sugar on hives with much honey stores, solely for moisture control.

So, I am just curious how you prepare your hives for overwintering. Do you wrap your hives in black felt? Do you seal up the hives with the exception of their lower entrance? Do you have an upper entrance? Do you use an insulator board under or on top of your upper cover? Do you use an inside cover in addition to a top cover? 

I ask this not to pry but to learn. If there is a better way for me to prepare and over-winter my hives I am all for learning it.

Regards,


----------



## dug_6238

*Intentions were good...*

Gentlemen,
The intentions were good. This is my second year beekeeping. My first winter I killed my one hive by reversing when I shouldn't have. This is my second year/winter, and I've learned maybe a little more, but still no expert. I want to try to do what I can to provide a little bit of help, and yes I do consider "insurance" practices as well. Some of my other hives were light, so I did feed those - one of them was hit by a bear and only had enough time to build up a partial hive of comb and stores, but I did save them. The other was a failed package that came with a drone-laying queen, and it took a while to get a replacement queen and get her laying. They were both light...I did give them some frames from the other colonies, but I wanted to feed to provide insurance. I think most would not argue me feeding these two. No use letting them die, I'd be a dummy if I did that and didn't do something to help.

Now for the third colony which was heavy but the cluster at the top. As you can see the cluster is in the middle. Can you tell me which way they'll move? Left or right? Up or down? From the outside of the boxes can you tell me if the cluster is spanning the two boxes? Or is it only in the top box? Remember, I'm a newbie, and I can't tell these things. I suspect most of you can't tell these things either. If you can, share the knowledge - we'd be much in your debt. Being that many of my clusters are located differently and ALL my colonies are from last year's packages, swarms, and splits, it's hard for me to tell where they stand sometimes, and I want to make sure I don't kill this colony off like I did last year's. 

I do make an effort to keep aware of what their status is and intervene if I think it's needed. I've not touched any of my other heavy colonies, only this one since they were at the inner cover hole. They might move down, or they might not. They might move left and run out of food when we get a long winter, or maybe that won't happen. Maybe we'll get spring here in 5 or 6 weeks, maybe we won't. The weathermen can't get it right, do you really expect me to know what's coming up in the next 2 months?

With this said, I'm providing this feed for this heavy colony as insurance, in case they don't move down, and in case they move to one side and then run out. If they move down they have honey. If they don't they have sugar and what honey is in the top box. If they move right to the hive wall but don't move down, and we have a long winter, I can rest assured that they'll probably make it. Insurance - just like my car. I don't ever intend to collide with another driver, and certainly never want to hurt anyone this way, but in case it ever does happen, I have good insurance, and any damage or injury to either of us will be well paid for. Effort and good intent here is all I can give, just as with my bees. I assure you that if the sugar on top of this heavy hive hurts them or kills the colony, you'll have a public apology from me - you have my word on that.

One of the previous threads made a comment about how newbies really shouldn't be going by the "hefting" method to tell how heavy a hive is because there may be more factors at work. I hate to say it but this kind of thinking does have merit, and I took no offense from it. There is wisdom here, and I do try to incorporate advice like this as well. How do you all know?? Maybe I got it wrong, maybe there are other reasons this hive is heavy - with this in mind I continue to approach this saying what can I do to help in case I was wrong? The additional feed will help if I was wrong. Gentlemen - I do have respect for your expertise and do seriously appreciate your time to respond. I agree with your advice in terms of my other normal colonies and would continue to follow it with those colonies. With this one I'm just trying to cover all the bases. 


One of my weaknesses when I read posts from other people is that I'm too quick to assume that they're chastising me for something that I did, especially if I feel that I did it with good intentions. Many times I'm too quick to respond to a post and I'm terrible at choosing my words or finding a respectable way of telling someone what I think. I hope that in the future I can prevent myself from responding rashly.

With that said, I will say this - one of my biggest pet peeves are people who honk their horn at an elderly person driving slow, blow past them and cut them off, or act disrepectful and impatient with them just becuase they're moving a little more slowly than the person wants them too. Getting someone like this worked up, scaring them, cutting them off making them have to swerve, and anything like that doesn't help. The elderly driver may is usually driving or acting within their limits, and distracting them is in no way going to make the situation better. It's unsafe. It's unwise. It's disrespectful. What if that person was your mother or father? Would you want someone treating them that way? Would you treat them that way? If you would, then grow up, you're an idiot. I wouldn't want someone doing that to my mom. The person that you honk at is probably someone's mom, and you honking at them, distracting them, or treating them disrespectfully can do no good. I don't condone this in any way, and I'm sure most reasonable people don't.

NOW - new beekeepers are like elderly drivers. We're slower than the folks that have been doing this for a while. We're inconsistent. We worry. We may frustrate the more seasoned beekeeper with our decisions (or sometimes indecision) and may sometimes elicit the response of "C'mon!!" or "Why??". Think of me as a slow, elderly driver. I'm not trying to wreck you. I'm not trying to get anybody hurt. I'm just trying to drive safely to my destination, and I'm doing it at a rate that's within my limits. I'm not trying to slow the drivers behind me down or make them late. I'm just trying to make sure I get to my grandkids' house alive. 

I appreciate everyones' responses and advice, and I will try to follow each and every one of them everywhere that they are appropriate, and they are each appropriate in certain places.

BUT, please DO apply my anology to me as a beekeeper. 

PS - BARRY - you have a post icon for a note, but where's the one for a BOOK? Sorry all!


----------



## Michael Palmer

Jeffzhear said:


> Mike,
> 
> I started this year using granulated sugar in an empty box on top for two reasons. The first was to control moisture and the second to offer an insurance policy for light hives. However, I did put granulated sugar on hives with much honey stores, solely for moisture control.
> 
> So, I am just curious how you prepare your hives for overwintering. Do you wrap your hives in black felt? Do you seal up the hives with the exception of their lower entrance? Do you have an upper entrance? Do you use an insulator board under or on top of your upper cover? Do you use an inside cover in addition to a top cover?
> 
> I ask this not to pry but to learn. If there is a better way for me to prepare and over-winter my hives I am all for learning it.
> 
> Regards,


I think there are better ways to control moisture than sugar. Best to get it out of the hive while it's still vapor.

I use a wide open bottom. I think it's about 14 1/2 x 7/8. I push a wedge of 1/2" hardware cloth into the entrance to keep out mice. I have an upper entrance abour 2 x 3/8. It's located in the rim of the inner cover. It faces the front of the hive...sunny side. I close the inner cover escape hole with duct tape, and place a 16 1/4 x 20 piece of 2" foam flat on the inner cover. I wrap the hive with 15 pound felt (tar paper), and tie cover on top. 

On a really cold night, you'll see a horizontal icicle sticking off the upper entrance. The moisture really does vent out of the hive.

You can't learn, if you don't ask.


----------



## Jeffzhear

Mike, Thank you for your quick response. I am going to print it, put it with my Standard Operating Procedure book (Three ring with plastic sleeves) and I will set up some hives next fall in your configuration and try your method. I suppose I can buy the two inch foam by the sheet at Lowes and cut it with a circular saw or my table saw. Again, thank you


----------



## Michael Palmer

I'm sure your intentions were good, Dug. So were mine. I just see this too much where beekeepers feed their bees at a bad time, just to be sure.

And you were right to feed the light colonies. Just do it early enough so they can ripen and even cap the syrup. You're in Cambria county, PA. Is that the Johnstown area? When does your Goldenrod bloom? I would do your feeding at the end of that bloom, and feed as fast as you can until they have enough to get through until spring.

>Now for the third colony which was heavy but the cluster at the top. As you can see the cluster is in the middle. Can you tell me which way they'll move? Left or right? Up or down? From the outside of the boxes can you tell me if the cluster is spanning the two boxes? Or is it only in the top box?<

No, I can't tell you positively, but I can guess. I think they'll move up, and toward the sunny side. As far as the cluster goes, I think I'm seeing just the top of the cluster. It probably goes down to the bottom of the top box, and maybe into the bottom box a bit. Hard to say. They're tight right now, and will expand when it warms up. I think they look good! That's all anyone is saying. They look good. Don't bother feeding them.

>The weathermen can't get it right, do you really expect me to know what's coming up in the next 2 months?<

Of course not. But you can see with a quick check that this colony is OK. Feeding them will just make them more active.

>Maybe I got it wrong, maybe there are other reasons this hive is heavy -<

I don't think so. I think you got it right. The hive is heavy, and there is a nice quiet cluster surrounded by honey. 

>One of my weaknesses when I read posts from other people is that I'm too quick to assume that they're chastising me for something that I did, especially if I feel that I did it with good intentions. Many times I'm too quick to respond to a post and I'm terrible at choosing my words or finding a respectable way of telling someone what I think. I hope that in the future I can prevent myself from responding rashly.<

>With that said, I will say this - one of my biggest pet peeves are people who honk their horn at an elderly person driving slow,<

Hey, wait a minute. No-one is honking their horn here. I'm putting the breaks on so you can catch up. If I came on too strong, then I appologize. In my opinion, you should feed your bees what they need in late September, and early October. I think winter feeding should be for emergencies. It makes the bees more active than they need to be, They should be quiet on the combs at this time of the year, not trying to process sugar.

>With this said, I'm providing this feed for this heavy colony as insurance, in case they don't move down, and in case they move to one side and then run out. If they move down they have honey. If they don't they have sugar and what honey is in the top box. If they move right to the hive wall but don't move down, and we have a long winter, I can rest assured that they'll probably make it. Insurance - just like my car. I don't ever intend to collide with another driver, and certainly never want to hurt anyone this way, but in case it ever does happen, I have good insurance, and any damage or injury to either of us will be well paid for.<

That's certainly a different situation. What you are saying is like...

You're worried about having enough to eat next month, even though the fridge is full. So, just to be sure, you supersize every meal and gain a hundred pounds. Not necessarily the best plan.


----------



## dug_6238

*Too brash - my apologies.*

Mike,
My apologies. I really am too quick sometimes to assume or interpret. I understand your post and I see your points.

Yes, you are right about the area. I'm just North of Johnstown, but I work in Johnstown. The goldenrod flow was good this year. Several colonies that got going late this year were the ones that I tried to feed syrup, even up past hunting season, but a couple of these were really slow to take syrup and even to build comb. I was intent on getting them into two boxes this year, and didn't want to see them go into winter in just one deep. I may have rushed them - two of the lighter ones have a couple frames on the outside that aren't fully drawn - perhaps I should have reduced them, but I really thought I might be able to limp them along. The "goners" was a prime case of this - the stinking bear left them no comb, so they started from scratch, except for a couple of combs I robbed from other colonies. As for the heavy one, I'd had pounded into my head by local beeks the notion that if they were up at the top they would probably starve.


Thank you for the time you put into your response and the courteousness and patience. Folks like me can learn from the examples set by a gentleman like yourself. There's a lot I need to learn.


----------



## Michael Palmer

>There's a lot I need to learn.<

Same goes for us all.

>Several colonies that got going late this year were the ones that I tried to feed syrup, even up past hunting season, but a couple of these were really slow to take syrup and even to build comb. I was intent on getting them into two boxes this year, and didn't want to see them go into winter in just one deep. I may have rushed them - two of the lighter ones have a couple frames on the outside that aren't fully drawn - perhaps I should have reduced them, but I really thought I might be able to limp them along.<

I wonder if these limpy colonies should have been united on the fall flow. This is something you'll learn over time...to recognize when it's better to unite and take your loss in the fall. One good colony is worth more than two weak.


----------



## MountainCamp

I have only been keeping bees for 12 years here in the Catskills. I am a small scale beekeeper with an average of 30 hives. 

My methods and techniques have evolved and developed over these 12 years. I work my colonies as I can around my work schedules. Working a full time job that has me traveling about half the time, as well as working part time for a local PD, and several seasonal security opportunities.

I feed light syrup in the fall to extend brood rearing and provide as many young bees for wintering as possible. After my fall light syrup feeding, I then set the paper and sugar, for (2) reasons: Additional Stores and Moisture Control.

For the last eight winters have been setting up my winter hives with an empty box, paper and granular sugar. I wrap them with felt paper for winter protection and solar gain. I do not do anything special for top ventilation nor do I add any top insulation. 

My average winter losses over these 8 years have been less than 10%. I have not treated for mites, other than spearmint and wintergreen oil in syrup in 10 years, except for (1) year I did a OA trickle treatment about (3) years ago to try it. I did not use the oils last spring or this fall. I want to see if it has any effect on my hives.

I would like to address some of the statements as well as ask a few questions:

“They feed not because the bees need it...which should have been done in the fall so the bees could ripen the syrup, but because someone asked "did you feed your bees yet," or because they feel it good insurance. “

Are we talking about feeding syrup or placing granular sugar on paper? As they are (2) different topics and have different results.

“Feeding a colony like this, that already has plenty of honey, isn't necessary, and doesn't really do the bees any good. It makes them more active at a time when they should be in a quiet cluster...like the ones in this picture.”

I don’t know, but the bees / cluster in the picture does not look to be any quieter than any of my colonies that have granular sugar on paper. Every cluster that is going to see 
spring will expand / move to access new stores. They will either move as a cluster to the new stores or move the stores to where the cluster is situated. On days with temps that permit, they will “roam” and move stores to where they need and want them.

“Dumping granulated sugar on them really isn't necessary, and should only be done in an emergency situation, and not as part of the normal routine.”

Why? Please explain the “damage” this causes a colony.

“-feeding on top with dry sugar should not be a routine but only part of a emergency intervention to save the bees from starvation,” 

Once again, why?

“mainly in late winter when temperatures are low and dont permit liquid feeding. This kind of feeding is done when the bees are very light on honey and they are on top of the inner cover on a cold day. “


If the temps are low, and they can’t or don’t break cluster or are off to one side of the hive body, where they can not access the inner cover hole to access the “emergency feed” you’ve placed on it, they are dead.

“The need for such feeding should remind us that we failed in our wintering preparation to provide reserves to the colonies that need it.”

Can someone please explain the difference between granulated honey and granular sugar. From the perspective of the colony’s health, not personal feelings. Granular sugar does not cause any health issues, nor does it transmit any of the brood diseases.



I went into this winter with (30) hives that I expected to see alive and well in May, and (2) I did not expect to see make the end of December.



So far this winter (31) colonies have seen February.


So if placing granular sugar on paper helps provide moisture control, additional stores, and helps with winter success, it will remain part of my wintering routine.


----------



## MountainCamp

"Quiet Winter Cluster"

A winter cluster is anything but "quiet". They are in fact very dynamic and active. They are flexing flight muscles to generate heat, they are moving and exchanging inner and outer layers of bees. Bringing the colder insulating shell bees in toward the center to warm and revitalize them. Replacing them with bees from inside to cluster.
They are moving within the hive accessing "stores" either as a cluster relocating or as individuals moving stores to where the cluster is located.
Once brood rearing resumes, sometime during the middle of winter up north, things really pick up.

So from my perspective a "Quiet Winter Cluster", is a dead winter cluster.


----------



## Jeffzhear

Now, this is a constructive discussion, one I personally enjoy. Different methods for different people...which allows me to learn and experiment and determine what works best for me. Thanks folks.


----------



## Michael Palmer

Bees have been wintering for eons...they made it through ice ages. No one ever added sugar of any kind to them. They wintered just fine, and are here today despite the environment, diseases, and parasites.

Tens of thousands of colonies are wintered in the north with no winter feeding of syrup or granulated sugar...granular if you want...of any kind. 

It's my opinion that the colonies that remain quiet in their clusters winter best, while more active clusters need more frequent cleansing flights. I believe this, because I've seen it...and I keep bees where we may not have bee flights for 5 months. Being quiet in the winter cluster is important under such conditions. Now, I said quiet. That certainly doesn't mean dead. Of course there is some winter activity. But, excessive activity does, in my opinion, cause problems. This activity can be caused by pathogens and parasites...nosema and tracheal come to mind. Having a mouse living in the bottom box will increase the activity of the colony. Feeding on syrup or sugar will make them more active, too. And that means increased need for cleansing. 

>Are we talking about feeding syrup or placing granular sugar on paper? As they are (2) different topics and have different results.<

Both. Syrup is syrup, and granular sugar is syrup too, once it is disolved with condensation.

I think bees winter best on honey. Honey they have gathered, ripened, and stored in the combs they winter on. No reason they need anything else. Of course, due to crop failure, queen failure, and operator error...removing too much honey, or messing up the bees so they can't reach their potential, will effect the quantity of winter stores the bees store. When the food supply is too low for winter, then we feed. We feed enough for the bees to make the winter, and even the spring. The feed should be given early enough so it is well ripened and capped. In this state, the bees will winter well. It's the way the BEES do it. They way they've always done it. I don't really see how we can improve on their scheme.

>So if placing granular sugar on paper helps provide moisture control, additional stores, and helps with winter success, it will remain part of my wintering routine.<

I dopn't see how it helps with moisture control. All it does is absorb the moisture until the bees take care of it. An upper entrance and inner cover insulation will do the same thing, but that way the moisture is gone and out of the hive. If a colony is heavy enough, with enough winter stores, how will sugar on a piece of paper actually do anything to help? Of course the bees will clean it up. It's like spilled honey to them...nothing to be left lying around. And, I don't really see how it improves wintering success. If they already have enough winter stores, and a nice cluster of young bees, and the moisture is vented out of the colony, how does sugar on paper really help. Maybe you prepare your colonies well, they have a nice cluster of young bees, and enough stores for winter. Maybe the sugar really isn't helping after all.

>If the temps are low, and they can’t or don’t break cluster or are off to one side of the hive body, where they can not access the inner cover hole to access the “emergency feed” you’ve placed on it, they are dead.<

I have to agree with this. If the colony had sufficient combs of honey in the hive, and were allowed to set up their cluster as their insticts dictate, then they wouldn't have needed any extra sugar anyway. And these colonies that get stuck off to one side...is that the fault of the lack of feed, or the lack of a sufficient cluster size.

I guess I'm just old school. I believe the bees know better than we, how to set up their winter cluster. I can't tell you how to keep bees, and certainly won't argue with your success. I just don't think that success is from leaving extra sugar on top of the clusters.

I also don't like to see the effect on beginners of far out management schemes. Now they're all adding sugar to their hives...just in case...because someone else does. And this is supposed to become the way? I don't really see the wisdom of it. 

Most of my 34 apiaries will winter just fine without any extra sugar on the inner cover, or a piece of paper. Have for 35 years, and hopefully will for 35 more. I'm not saying I won't have losses...I will. But to most of them I say good riddance. If my bees can't even winter without extreme measures from me, then I don't consider them to be very good bees. And what of the cost? To keep sugar on all those bees. Spend thousands on sugar, when the bees will winter quite nicely on the honey nature provides for them? How can that be sound management?

MC, I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong. I'm just trying to figure out...

Why??


----------



## MountainCamp

_>Bees have been wintering for eons...they made it through ice ages. No one ever added sugar of any kind to them. They wintered just fine, and are here today despite the environment, diseases, and parasites.

_
They wintered before felt paper wraps, movable frames, insulated top, and Styrofoam hive bodies as well. Should these ideas and techniques be nixed as well? You winter using felt paper wraps, insulation boards, and an upper entrance. All of these techniques were new to someone at one time.

_>Tens of thousands of colonies are wintered in the north with no winter feeding of syrup or granulated sugar...granular if you want...of any kind. 

_
And this means that it shouldn’t been done? Once again explain the damage or harm caused. Cause and effect - please.

_>It's my opinion that the colonies that remain quiet in their clusters winter best, while more active clusters need more frequent cleansing flights. I believe this, because I've seen it...and I keep bees where we may not have bee flights for 5 months. Being quiet in the winter cluster is important under such conditions. _

Please define or explain what a “quiet winter cluster” is and what you’ve seen. We winter in similar condi_tions._

>But, excessive activity does, in my opinion, cause problems. This activity can be caused by pathogens and parasites...nosema and tracheal come to mind. Having a mouse living in the bottom box will increase the activity of the colony. Feeding on syrup or sugar will make them more active, too. And that means increased need for cleansing. 



Is it the activity or the parasite, pathogen or mouse that is the problem.


Feeding granular sugar does not stimulate brood rearing anymore than honey or granulated honey does. Granular sugar does not introduce pathogens, parasites, nor nosema spores. In fact granular sugar has fewer 
impurities than honey and reduces the need for cleansing flights. 
Clusters and colonies making use of granular sugar are no more active than clusters or colonies that make use of their honey stores.

>I think bees winter best on honey. Honey they have gathered, ripened, and stored in the combs they winter on. No reason they need anything else. 

Studies have concluded otherwise. www.beesource.com/pov/usda/abjfeb1977.htm

>I dopn't see how it helps with moisture control. All it does is absorb the moisture until the bees take care of it. 

Try it, you may like it. 
Ask anyone who has tried it if they did not see an vast improvement in free liquid or condensate formation. 
The mass of sugar absorbs moisture and the latent heat it contains, thereby retaining more of the heat energy that the cluster generates. The moisture that is not absorbed and flows up and over the sugar, can’t fall on the cluster and get it wet. Condensate that forms on the side walls can be used by the cluster, just as they do when re-liquefying granulated honey or diluting their honey stores for use.

An upper entrance and inner cover insulation will do the same thing, but that way the moisture is gone and out of the hive. If a colony is heavy enough, with enough winter stores, how will sugar on a piece of paper actually do anything to help? Of course the bees will clean it up. It's like spilled honey to them...nothing to be left lying around. And, I don't really see how it improves wintering success. If they already have enough winter stores, and a nice cluster of young bees, and the moisture is vented out of the colony, how does sugar on paper really help. Maybe you prepare your colonies well, they have a nice cluster of young bees, and enough stores for winter. Maybe the sugar really isn't helping after all.

>If the temps are low, and they can’t or don’t break cluster or are off to one side of the hive body, where they can not access the inner cover hole to access the “emergency feed” you’ve placed on it, they are dead.<

I have to agree with this. If the colony had sufficient combs of honey in the hive, and were allowed to set up their cluster as their insticts dictate, then they wouldn't have needed any extra sugar anyway. And these colonies that get stuck off to one side...is that the fault of the lack of feed, or the lack of a sufficient cluster size.

> I just don't think that success is from leaving extra sugar on top of the clusters.

I can tell you it simply is. I used to winter in (3) deeps and winter loses averaged 20 to 30%. I now get that extra deeps worth of honey for my pocket and have better winter success.

>I also don't like to see the effect on beginners of far out management schemes. Now they're all adding sugar to their hives...just in case...because someone else does. And this is supposed to become the way? I don't really see the wisdom of it. 


I ask again, please explain the damage or harm done by having more stores or feed than a colony will use. A colony that is short on “food” will struggle or perish. A colony that has ample “food” will flourish.

>If my bees can't even winter without extreme measures from me, then I don't consider them to be very good bees. 
I don’t know I think have to insulate the hive tops and ensure that they have sufficient upper ventilation, but not too much is extreme. Our climates and wintering temps are not all that different.

>And what of the cost? To keep sugar on all those bees. Spend thousands on sugar, when the bees will winter quite nicely on the honey nature provides for them? How can that be sound management?

When honey sells for over $4.00 per pound and sugar costs less than $0.40 per pound, I don’t see how it does not add up.
Mike, I have read post of feeding gallons of syrup to your hives in the fall, does it cost more to make syrup than to put dry sugar on?

Here is a study of a “Quiet Winter Cluster”:

www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/techbulletin1429.htm

I still don’t know what this term means. As can been seen clusters are not static nor quiet.


----------



## bleta12

Hi MC
There is no problem practising different ways of managing bees, but when you advocate a different method you should be prepared to accept the fact that some people may have a different view. With due respect I was one of those people that have different opinion on this subject.

Expressing my humble opinion, there is nothing new in feeding granulated sugar in late winter to bees that are about to starve. This is done when temperatures are low to offer them liquid feed like syrup and have been practiced for years in cold sates as an emergency measure. In your area and mine I dont think we can use liquid feed till some time in March. 
If I understand it correctly the only new think you offer is the fact that you give the bees a considerable amount of granulated sugar in your last manipulation of the year, some time in November/December I think. ( you can share with us the number of lb, but if I remember it correctly from one of your postings, it was really some impressive number).

As an emergency I have no problem feeding the granulated sugar, I have done it myself and probably saved a lot of hives.

You use a deep body on top to make room for the sugar.
That is a violation of bees natural choosing which interferes with regulation of the micro climate on top of the cluster. The bees dont heat the whole hive, only the cluster, but you configuration should not help them.


- There is no question that honey is the best option for bees, but if I had a choice feeding the same amount of sugar as syrup in the fall or granulated during winter, I would choose the first.
There is no brood stimulation from granulated sugar. That is not the case of the honey or the syrup that was stored an matured in the fall. Remember, we can not stimulate our bees with syrup till March. The queens stat laying some time in January.

I personally think that by fall our bees should have everything they need and if I have to do some emergency feeding, I consider that to be a problem in my management and I try to correct it next year. The best for the beekeeper and the bees is to place the colonies in a location with heavy fall flow.
My overwintered nucs are wrapped in December and not open till some time in March. I make sure that they are very heavy in December.

-Moisture in the hive is controlled by an upper entrance. A stick on the side is all I use.


In the winter the cluster moves sideways but mainly up. Whet it hits the inner cover there is no place to go and if there is no more honey it will starve. In a cold day, bees on top of the inner cover are a sure sign that they are running out of food and should bee fed not on top of the inner cover but the feed should be placed on top of the cluster.



it will remain part of my wintering routine.[/quote]

So be it.

That is the reason that we all are in beekeeping, we all have our different ways to achieve the same objective, keeping bees.

Good luck 

Gilman


----------



## MountainCamp

I do not have any problem with anyone expressing a different view.
I am only asking that when a statement is made as factual, that it be something other than personal feelings.

>Expressing my humble opinion, there is nothing new in feeding granulated sugar in late winter to bees that are about to starve. This is done when temperatures are low to offer them liquid feed like syrup and have been practiced for years in cold sates as an emergency measure. In your area and mine I dont think we can use liquid feed till some time in March.

I agree with you. I don’t think what I am doing is radial. 


>If I understand it correctly the only new think you offer is the fact that you give the bees a considerable amount of granulated sugar in your last manipulation of the year, some time in November/December I think. ( you can share with us the number of lb, but if I remember it correctly from one of your postings, it was really some impressive number).


This year I put the granular sugar on earlier than I usually do. I usually feed light syrup well into November and then put the granular sugar on after the syrup comes off. This year the granular went on the end of October / beginning of November. I placed 15# per hive on (32) hives, 480 lbs. I have added additional sugar during follow-up checks in November, December, and January. This year, I have placed approximately 1,000 lbs of sugar. With that said currently each of the (31) remaining hives has at least 5 – 10 lbs on them. So, they have consumed approximately 500 lbs of dry sugar. But, I expect that by the time the spring flows are going that almost all of the granular sugar will have been consumed.

>You use a deep body on top to make room for the sugar.
>That is a violation of bees natural choosing which interferes with regulation of the micro climate on top of the cluster. 


What? 
The fact of the matter is that I have been doing this for (8) winters. This is not the first time to the dance. If I remember correctly Finman had the same argument last year. Someone else had it the year before that.
I guess that the bees have never read that rule. 
How does this micro climate develop when the cluster is in the lower box with all that space above them? 
I have seen colonies in various hive spaces. We have a number of old structures of balloon type construction in Greene county. I have over the years removed a few hives from these structures with the colonies situated with all kinds of overhead space.


>There is no question that honey is the best option for bees, but if I had a choice feeding the same amount of sugar as syrup in the fall or granulated during winter, I would choose the first.

Actually it isn’t and there have been a number of studies that have proven this out. If you are feeding syrup in the fall, then they are not wintering on honey. They are wintering on converted syrup. 

>There is no brood stimulation from granulated sugar. That is not the case of the honey or the syrup that was stored an matured in the fall. Remember, we can not stimulate our bees with syrup till March. The queens stat laying some time in January.


Neither Honey, converted syrup from fall, or granular sugar stimulate brood rearing. Brood rearing will take place on all of these food sources, but will not be “stimulated” till there is nectar and pollen coming into the hive. This is why light syrup and pollen sub is feed before the natural flows start or can be exploited.

>Moisture in the hive is controlled by an upper entrance. A stick on the side is all I use.


That is one way to do it, and also vent a significant amount of heat energy as well.
I have yet to see a “natural” hive with an upper entrance using a stick in the side. Doesn’t this violate the natural order of the world of Honeybees?

As I have said, this is not the first time to the dance. I have been doing this for (8) seasons with temps in the -25F range and warmer. Our first fall frost can be anytime after the 15th of September and the last spring frost the end of May. So we are not exactly in the Sunbelt. I have been told that my bees will die, they should die, it wouldn’t work, it violates this, etc.
Yet they thrive and here is why: 
#1) They have the “food” sources and reserves to generate the heat required to sustain the cluster till spring.
#2) The cluster stays dry and warm with a cap of granular sugar that absorbs warm moisture from the cluster. This mass of sugar also absorbs radiant heat as well. This heat energy is radiated back into the hive, as opposed to being vented to the world.
#3) The cap of sugar keeps any condensate formed from falling back onto the cluster.
#4) A winter colony requires some moisture to survive and make use of their stores. Bees don’t eat honey, they store it. 
#5) My bees can’t read and don’t know that they have violated the rules. So please no one tell them.

Now I would like to ask a few questions that are yet to be answered:

#1) What exactly is a “Quiet Winter Cluster”?
#2) What harm or damage is caused by a cluster eating granular sugar?

Please do not claim that what you have not tried does not work. 

I invite anyone to see how my hives are set up and whether they are viable or not.
My phone #518 622 0309
Email: [email protected]

My yards are setup in Round Top, Catskill, and Cornwallville, NY.

I wish everyone good luck with the rest of the winter season.



Regards, 

Scott Yates


----------



## Michael Palmer

>Now I would like to ask a few questions that are yet to be answered:
>#1) What exactly is a “Quiet Winter Cluster”?<

One that is quiet on the combs. Remains in their winter cluster, and doesn't work at consuming sugar, syrup, or break cluster due to a constant disturbance of whatever kind.

>#2) What harm or damage is caused by a cluster eating granular sugar?<

I think it causes them to me more active than they need to be, resulting in the need for more cleansing flights. I guess it doesn't matter if your bees have regular flights, but in an area where they don't have flights for months at a time, I think it does matter.

>Yet they thrive and here is why: 
#1) They have the “food” sources and reserves to generate the heat required to sustain the cluster till spring.<

Same with an adequate supply of honey that the bees provided for themselves.

>#2) The cluster stays dry and warm with a cap of granular sugar that absorbs warm moisture from the cluster. This mass of sugar also absorbs radiant heat as well. This heat energy is radiated back into the hive, as opposed to being vented to the world.<

Same with an upper entrance and inner cover insulation.

>#3) The cap of sugar keeps any condensate formed from falling back onto the cluster.<

Same with an upper entrance and inner cover insulation.

>#4) A winter colony requires some moisture to survive and make use of their stores. Bees don’t eat honey, they store it.<

Same with only an upper entrance and insulation. There is sufficient moisture for the bees without using sugar as an absorbent.

>This year I put the granular sugar on earlier than I usually do. I usually feed light syrup well into November and then put the granular sugar on after the syrup comes off. This year the granular went on the end of October / beginning of November. I placed 15# per hive on (32) hives, 480 lbs. I have added additional sugar during follow-up checks in November, December, and January. This year, I have placed approximately 1,000 lbs of sugar. With that said currently each of the (31) remaining hives has at least 5 – 10 lbs on them. So, they have consumed approximately 500 lbs of dry sugar. But, I expect that by the time the spring flows are going that almost all of the granular sugar will have been consumed.<

Ahhh...there's the rub. You have used 1000 pounds of sugar on 31 colonies, or 32 pounds on each. Now, with my 800 colonies, spread out over two stated, I would need 25,600 pounds of sugar at about $.30 a pound, means I'll be spending somewhere near $7600 on sugar for a procedure that I don't think is really necessary. The bees have lived forever in the north, and provided quite well for themselves. 

>Please do not claim that what you have not tried does not work.<

OK, put the shoe on the other foot. You've been keeping 30 colonies of bees for 12 years, and 8 of which you have been using the sugar method. I've been keeping bees for 35 years, never used the sugar method, and have had excellent results with honey and upper entrances. Have you actually tried wintering on honey and using upper entrances and inner cover insulation? I'm not saying that your bees aren't wintering, I'm saying that maybe they're wintering despite what you are doing. In the 2 years you kept bees before you started using sugar to cure the moisture problem, did you actually use upper entrances and inner cover insulation?

>>There is no question that honey is the best option for bees, but if I had a choice feeding the same amount of sugar as syrup in the fall or granulated during winter, I would choose the first.<<

>Actually it isn’t and there have been a number of studies that have proven this out. If you are feeding syrup in the fall, then they are not wintering on honey. They are wintering on converted syrup.<

I guess it depends on the type of honey. My bees have no problems wintering on the honey they make. And, as far as wintering on converted syrup...

My bees winter on honey. When I remove the crop sometime in August, I look at the broodnest. Some are packed with honey, while some are light. We have a good fall flow in most years. Those with packed broodnests need a super, or they'll swarm. So I give them one. Those that are light don't get one. The fall flow goes into the broodnest, so they have enough food for winter. There are a number of colonies that don't store quite enough for winter. I know this by weighing each colony, and feeding until they reach a target weitht of 150-160 pounds in 2d+1m. So to say that my bees winter on converted syrup is wrong. They winter on honey.

>When honey sells for over $4.00 per pound and sugar costs less than $0.40 per pound, I don’t see how it does not add up.
Mike, I have read post of feeding gallons of syrup to your hives in the fall, does it cost more to make syrup than to put dry sugar on?<

I suppose that with 30 colonies, selling the crop (what...a couple tons) for $4/lb is in the realm of possibilities. I make 40 to 50 tons. No way to sell that for $4/lb. I got $1.25 this year. My bees winter on 70 to 80 pounds of honey. Honey in the broodnest that I would never extract for a number of reasons. That honey is there, ripened, where the bees need it, job done, and finished. Is harvesting that honey and selling it for $1.25 a pound better than buying, mixing, and feeding, economical? If I fed 50 pounds of sugar to each of my colonies, that would be 40,000 pounds of syrup. That would be $12,000, plus the cost of labor, plus the cost of all those feeders. Just the economics alone rules out any massive feeding of sugar, or a management scheme that involves using tons of sugar in an unecessary management plan. 

Now, I'm not going to try to change your mind. You have a plan that you think works for the reasons you state. I think you would be successful without all the expense and bother that you go through, just by using upper entrances, inner cover insulation, and proper fall management. That's ok. I respect your right to keep your bees any way you want.

My concern is with all the part timers and newbees that will get the idea that they have to follow your plan in order to be successful in wintering our bees. I don't believe it to be so, and only hope they listen to the beekeepers who have had success...for generations...in wintering their bees by allowing the bees themselves to do what they have been doing for eons of time.

I hope, MC, that you and others will understand my point of view. The bees know exactly what they are doing, have been doing so since the last ice age, and know better than we. In other words, "Bees make better beekeepers that beekeepers make bees."


----------



## MountainCamp

>I hope, MC, that you and others will understand my point of view. The bees know exactly what they are doing, have been doing so since the last ice age, and know better than we. In other words, "Bees make better beekeepers that beekeepers make bees."

Mike I do understand your point of view. What I do goes against everything that you have thought and done over the years. But, I find it amazing when people make the above statement when arguing against what someone else is doing, and then go and do whatever they do to help their colonies get through. Honeybees do not naturally use insulated covers. I have seen colonies that have plugged any upper ventilation closed, as well as others who could care less. I have never seen a colony wrap itself with felt paper or configure itself in an insulated pack.

> My concern is with all the part timers and newbees that will get the idea that they have to follow your plan in order to be successful in wintering our bees. I don't believe it to be so, and only hope they listen to the beekeepers who have had success...for generations...in wintering their bees by allowing the bees themselves to do what they have been doing for eons of time.

I am not the one telling others that what I do is the one and only way to winter. I am also not the one telling anyone what they do does not or will not work and should not be done. But, what I do is an option.

>I know this by weighing each colony, and feeding until they reach a target weitht of 150-160 pounds in 2d+1m. So to say that my bees winter on converted syrup is wrong. They winter on honey.
What are you feeding the colonies that need to be fed? Honey or syrup? If it is honey than even at $1.25 a pound syrup would be cheaper.

>Ahhh...there's the rub. 

Once again, I am not telling anyone that they have to do anything. I am simply giving a viable option. 

>OK, put the shoe on the other foot. .. did you actually use upper entrances and inner cover insulation?

For the first (4) years, I did make sure that I provide upper ventilation, and actually tried some of the insulated blanket wraps, and other methods. Some colonies made it some did not. As I also said I have wintered in (3) deeps and tried other configurations.


>>#1) What exactly is a “Quiet Winter Cluster”?<
>One that is quiet on the combs. Remains in their winter cluster, and doesn't work at consuming sugar, syrup, or break cluster due to a constant disturbance of whatever kind.


Your colonies do not remain in any quieter a cluster than mine do. When the temperatures allow the cluster to loosen and move they do, when they need to move to new stores they do or die, when they are able to roam and get stores moved to where they want them - they do. So what is the difference between accessing granular sugar or honey? None.

So your definition of a “Quiet Winter Cluster” is simply that they don’t consume sugar or syrup.

>>#2) What harm or damage is caused by a cluster eating granular sugar?<
>I think it causes them to me more active than they need to be, resulting in the need for more cleansing flights. I guess it doesn't matter if your bees have regular flights, but in an area where they don't have flights for months at a time, I think it does matter.

You think that it causes them to be more active. But you have no evidence that they are any more or less active. You have no proof or evidence that it causes them to require any more cleansing flights than your colonies. In fact, granular sugar contains less impurities than honey does. This is a fact, not my feelings or thoughts. Less impurities in the food supply means that there is less waste developed by the bees. This means less cleansing flights required.

As far as the ability to make cleansing flights, 
Round Top, NY -- Average High / low
October: 58 / 33F 
November: 46 / 26F
December: 35 / 15F
January: 31 / 9F
February: 33 / 9F
March: 41 / 18F 
April: 53 / 29F

St. Albans, VT -- Average High / low
October: 56 / 38F 
November: 43 / 28F
December: 31 / 14F
January: 25 / 6F
February: 27 / 8F
March: 41 / 18F 
April: 53 / 29F

My home and Cornwallville yards are about 800 feet higher in elevation than where the temps list for.
My Catskill yard is down on the River and the season there is about 2 weeks longer in fall and 2 weeks earlier in spring.

I have never stated what I do is the Holy Grail of beekeeping or that it will work for everyone. I don’t buy HFCS by the tote nor sell honey by the ton. But, there are many ways to skin a cat.

Off to the pool for a swim.

Regards,
Scott Yates


----------



## Jeffzhear

Michael and Scott, 
Just a thank you to both of you. This is one thread I will print and save for future reference and I have learned much from the both of you and I am sure I can speak for many others.


----------



## bleta12

I went to check my hives today, temps were around 45', bees were not flying. 
I put some fondant on some shaky hives in late December. On the yard that I checked the bees, they had consumed most of it. 
The bees on the other hives that did not need any attention, were still clustered low in the upper deep, full of honey and very promising.

Making it short, *the sugar or fondant feeding benefits only the hives that need it.*
If we have a large of number that need this kind of intervention on our operation, that may be a sign of another problem; Varroa or trachea mites.

Healthy populations, in our area, are normally able to be ready for winter without our help. Their number and health of the bees is the main factor.
When this number and health is affected by Varroa and trachea mite, those bees are unable to be selfsuficient and need our attention.
I treat only in the fall with FA starting early August and ending my yards some time in early September. After 21 days of treatment, the first yards treated can fill another super mostly with golden rod.
Those 21 days take care of the mites and give the bees a chance to consolidate the winter stores in the 2 deep configuration, making my further intervention unnecessary.
For some hives, my treatment for mites may have come late, most of the damage was done, populations reduced and they were not able to consolidate the winter reserves. *These are the bees that need emergency feeding in the winter, small clusters that even if they survive they are not going to amount for much in the next season.*

This is probably another way to consider the need for feeding in the winter. 

I have nothing more to add to the subject but wish you all good beekeeping.

Gilman


----------



## MountainCamp

Let's keep this short and sweet.
Granular sugar on paper placed on the top bars serves (2) purposes:
#1) Feed / "Stores"
#2) Moisture absorption and condensate regulation.

I agree that granular sugar used "only" as feed, will only benefit those colonies that use it. Not all colonies make use of the sugar to the same degree, if at all. The colonies that don't use it as feed, are not benefited from it as feed. However, they are also not "harmed" either. 

The granular sugar absorbing moisture and keeping condensate from forming and falling onto the cluster, benefits all of the clusters under it.

So, if a colony makes use of the granular sugar as feed or stores, they benefit from the use.

For those that don't use it as feed or stores, benefit from staying drier.

There is still one question to be answered, what is the specific harm or damage that is caused by placing granular sugar on paper? 


Thank you,


----------



## Michael Palmer

MountainCamp said:


> Let's keep this short and sweet.
> Granular sugar on paper placed on the top bars serves (2) purposes:
> #1) Feed / "Stores"
> #2) Moisture absorption and condensate regulation.
> 
> I agree that granular sugar used "only" as feed, will only benefit those colonies that use it. Not all colonies make use of the sugar to the same degree, if at all. The colonies that don't use it as feed, are not benefited from it as feed. However, they are also not "harmed" either.
> 
> The granular sugar absorbing moisture and keeping condensate from forming and falling onto the cluster, benefits all of the clusters under it.
> 
> So, if a colony makes use of the granular sugar as feed or stores, they benefit from the use.
> 
> For those that don't use it as feed or stores, benefit from staying drier.
> 
> There is still one question to be answered, what is the specific harm or damage that is caused by placing granular sugar on paper?
> 
> 
> Thank you,


I really can't answer your question any further. I don't have science (nor do you) to refer to, and that's what you are asking. I only have decades experience wintering bees in northern Vermont. 

I think your plan of using sugar as a moisture absorbent seems to work for you. I'm not going to argue with you about yes it does, no it doesn't. But, you don't really know, in my opinion, that it's the sugar that has lead to your success. But, lets assume that placing sugar on top of the cluster does get rid of your bees moisture problem. And, that it acts as feed and the bees won't starve in the winter, so that is a plus.

OK, we agree. Your sugar management works. 


Now, if we go with your assertion that the sugar method works, without science, then we must go with my assertion that wintering on honey, with a wide opened bottom entrance, an upper entrance near the top of the hive, and inner cover insulation, without science, works as well. 

I'm assuming, although I probably shouldn't, that your colonies had enough stores...either honey, syrup, or a combination...for winter, before you added the sugar. Is this true? If not, why not? Bad flow? Bad bees? Bad management? Bad location?

So again, I assume...your bees were well stocked with their winter feed. The addition of sugar therefore really isn't to feed them enough to get through the winter. Rather, it's for moisture absorbtion. The fact that the bees eat the sugar is a side benefit. Yes?

Now, after more than 3 decades wintering bees in northern Vermont, and following in the path of other beekeepers who have been here for generations, all the way back to the Civil War, wintering bees with the same plan that I use, I can say that bees will winter very well on honey or honey/syrup combination, upper entrances, and inner cover insulation. The excess moisture exits the hive through the upper entrance. The inner cover insulation keeps the inner cover warm, no moisture condenses on it, and no water drips on the bees. And, that's a fact.

So, since we are accepting each others assertions, without science, you'll just have to trust that what I say is true.

If I were to add this sugar to my colonies, I would use 25,600 pounds of sugar. Just to control the excess moisture in my colonies...that isn't even there. 

I realize that you have only 30 colonies, and 1000 pounds of sugar doesn't seem so costly as 25,000 pounds. But, it's still 1000 pounds of sugar at what cost...in product and labor...that could have been spent on something else in the operation.

I know that I'm not going to convince you, or change your mind. I'm not really trying to. I just wanted to put forth a management scheme that works, has and will work for generations of beekeepers. If you want to winter your bees with a cap of sugar, and it makes you feel better, than so be it. Just know, that there are other time proven methods.


----------



## MountainCamp

Mike, You're arguments are from the standpoint that I have said what you do does not work or that you have to do what I do.

Neither is the case. 

I have only put forth what I do and why.

I put granular sugar on paper placed on the top bars within an empty box, then the inner and outer covers. 

Each part has a purpose and reason, that I have explained. It may not make sense to some, it many not work for all.

I have only put forth an alternative method.

I hope all of your hive winter well and you have no loses.

Scott


----------



## Michael Palmer

MountainCamp said:


> Mike, You're arguments are from the standpoint that I have said what you do does not work or that you have to do what I do.
> 
> Neither is the case.
> 
> Scott


I don't think so. My point is that sugaring your colonies is unecessary, and expensive. If the bees are allowed to set up their broodnests, and if any additional feed is needed, it is given early so it will be ripened, and there is upper entrance and inner cover insulation, there is no need to sugar your bees. If, on the other hand, because of bad flow, bad bees, bad management, or in the case of MB, you hurt your back or for some other reason beyond your control couldn't properly prepare your bees for winter and they need emergency feeding, then by all means sugar. For those who find that their colonies are getting light because of warm fall or winter weather, and the bees may be dipping into their winter stores...did you ever try weighing your hives in the fall, and feeding to obtain a target weight? If the target weight is correct, then they won't run out of feed before spring...no matter what the weather patterns. I just don't feel it should be used as standard practice to either add "insurance" feed to an already heavy colony, or be used as an absorbent...when moisture is adequately controlled by upper entrance and inner cover insulation. Why have my bees, many hundreds of colonies, winter successfully, for decades of beekeeping in the north, with no sugar? Why do my bees have no moisture problems? Why should I add the cost of 25,000 pounds of sugar to my books? And if my bees winter here at the 45th, why won't yours and others. You see, I think they will.

I wonder how much of the moisture problem comes from feeding syrup well into November? I'm not saying that sugaring won't save a starving colony during the winter months. It has been done for years and years. The point is that sugaring should be for emergency use. Given the chance, the bees will prepare their broodnests for winter just fine.


----------



## Bee'z waxed

Little note here that the Hive and the Honey Bee postulated. Although it covers overwintering indoors, I found it quite interesting and somewhat pertainent to this discussion.

"Temperature also has an effect on bee death rate. Results of observations in two rooms each containing 80 hives are as follows (Nelson, 1979):

a. Room Temperature 46 degrees F... for 127 days - Nov 25th to Apr. 2:
Total weight dead bees: 213 lbs. (97 kgs)
Average weight loss per hive: 2.66 lbs. of bees

b. Rom Temperature 39 degrees F... for 127 days - Nov. 25th to Apr. 2:
Total weight dead bees: 106 lbs. 
Average weight loss per hive: 1.32 lbs. of bees". (The Hive and the Honey Bee, Page 862)

The point they were making was that metabolism, and consequently consumption of stores to prevent starvation, seemed to show an inverse relationship to temperature as contrast to previous theories which had stated that the colder it was, the more food the bees would need... 

I guess where I am going with this is the discussion here seems to imply that increased food increases activity versus the argument on TH&THB that external temperature increases activity, which then necessitates more food added. 

I know the above sounds like I am trying to make a point here but I am actually asking a question. I mean, if you left 8 deep supers of honey on your hive - more than enough to overwinter a hive, and NOT bringing into this discussion the pests and chimneying that might bring about - the hive isn't going to be super active just because of that are they?? If the 8 extra supers wouldn't affect activity levels and consequently, food consumption - as TH&THB states that is mainly based on temperature, why would additional sugar? Are you intimating that additional food stores might cause an increase in brood rearing prior to external temperatures and flora which would be needed to sustain it?? I am lost here on both sides of the argument..

Some of you don't feed sugar at all, or frown on it unless you absolutely need it, others feed sugar to keep the hive condensation under control, and others put it on just in case on all hives... I have already put out over $500 in books, clubs, subscriptions, etc... and I don't even have a darn hive yet.. and am looking at putting out close to $1,000 then... So.... is there a consensus here?? 'Cause betwixt the books and the conversation, I am a little confused..


----------



## Michael Bush

>Why should I add the cost of 25,000 pounds of sugar to my books?

You're going to feed them anyway. The sugar isn't going to go to waste. You'll collect what there is left over in the spring and make syrup. And you could probably spend less time making and feeding syrup in the fall. You might even be able to skip feeding in the spring if they are still scarfing down the sugar.


----------



## MountainCamp

What the study you cited shows is that there is an optimum temperature at which to winter hives indoors.

Studies have shown that the optimum use of stores takes place at around 42F. Above this temperature the colony becomes more active and below this temperature the colony must consume more stores to generate heat.

The addition of granular sugar does not increase hive activity anymore than granulated honey, or stored honey does. 

Feeding light syrup will stimulate brood rearing when there is pollen or pollen sub associated with it or available to the cluster.

Temperature plays the largest role in the activity of any wintering cluster and their movements.


----------



## Bee'z waxed

MountainCamp... Thank you for clarifying for me. I appreciate it.. I would agree with everything you said and only question the "below this temperature, the colony must consume more stores to generate heat" comment. -- see next post..

I also beg apologies. In my zeal to understand 'bee-ville', I tend to get really zealous... and probably annoying.. I am, in NO way, even thinking I know more than anyone else.. It is like a person expecting.. they read all the books in the world because they want so badly to be a good parent then when the kid is born, they realize they don't know anything. I know all I have is technical knowledge. I am trying to mesh what I have read with what you guys know.. and see if there is any discrepancy... If you say - "well, that may be what the book says but this is what I have observed in my hives", I would be inclined to take your personal experience over what I read... SO... please see this, not as confrontational, but as an effort at understanding.. It is just you were all going at it so heatedly that I wasn't getting a clear picture of the 'personal experience' side of this whole debate..


----------



## Bee'z waxed

"Corkins (1930) presented data from which he concluded that there was no foundation to the therory that subzero temperatures induced honey bees to expend great quantities of energy. He found that a colony consumed more honey when the outside temperature was 28 degrees F and above than it did when the average outdoor temperature was 15 degrees and below." (Hive & Honey Bee - bottom of page 842, top of 843) 

This was in the context of overwintering and protection from the elements out of doors.

You all are better at giving directions than anything else.. It is just that I want to understand and figure out how to make what I read in the books work with what I hear on the site.. and if it doesn't coalesce, I want to understand why/why not..


----------



## Michael Palmer

Michael Bush said:


> >Why should I add the cost of 25,000 pounds of sugar to my books?
> 
> You're going to feed them anyway. The sugar isn't going to go to waste. You'll collect what there is left over in the spring and make syrup. And you could probably spend less time making and feeding syrup in the fall. You might even be able to skip feeding in the spring if they are still scarfing down the sugar.


You're assuming that I feed all my colonies, anyway. I don't. I only feed the colonies that don't weigh the target weight or more. I fed about 1/3 of my colonies this year a total of 11 drums of syrup. They all weighed 160 or more going into winter, and will be ok for weight until April. At that time some will need a gallon of feed, but again...not all or even most. I can count my starved colonies on one hand, warm winter or cold.

All my feeding is done by the middle of October. Takes 2 days to mix 11 drums of syrup, and 10 days to feed it out. Not a lot of time. 

To add 30 pounds of sugar to all my hives...

How much can you add at one time? 30 pounds? 5 pounds? How many trips to my 34 apiary sites in two states? How many round trips over the Rousses Point bridge and into New York State. If I feed colonies sugar, that already have enough honey, will there be too much honey left in the spring? Will they eat the honey and ignore the sugar, or eat the sugar and ignore the honey? Is it not wasting the sugar to feed a colony that doesn't need it? Is it not wastful of time to sugar the hive and then take it off unused?

Anything you do to your bees that the bees can do for themselves is a waste of time. Taking off all the honey the bees made, and feeding back sugar, for profit sake, is bad bee management in my opinion.


----------



## MountainCamp

The problem I have with the statement and there assertion is they do not specify the range other than 28F and above. 

The upper range of the 28F and above are not given, and can greatly effect stores consumption.

On pg 852, of The Hive and the Honey Bee states "Bees remained quietest at 36 F to 39F. Weight loss records indicate that consumption of stores increased fairly uniformly with the advance of winter. The average winter consumption of stores for the several hundred hives wintered was 33 lbs per hive for the average 160 days of confinement."

On the same page: "Optimum temperatures are 39F +/- 3F" for indoor wintering.

I don't think that anyone who sees temps that stay below freezing for most of the winter, would attempt to winter on 33 lbs of stores.

Stores consumption is influenced by many factors. Such as cluster size, temperature and time of the season. Stores consumption within a colony will increase with consistent temperatures as the winter progresses as brood rearing resumes and increases as spring approaches.


----------



## Bee'z waxed

I started laughing as right below your excerpt, I read:

"Investigations on the type of stores giving the best (overwintering) results showed that clover honey and cane sugar were equally good.." (top of pg. 852)

Regarding overwintering stores necessary for success, thank you.. They were mentioning cellar wintering, but I don't see anyone in 20 degree 6 month weather wintering on a shallow super either... I can see why they then mention cane sugar!!  I believe their attestation to reduced consumption was without brood rearing, etc.. Just basic bees on a comb, but that was left to the assumption of the beekeeper and I hadn't thought about the brood rearing resumption in Jan/Feb which is independant of temperature - I think..


----------



## Michael Palmer

>I know the above sounds like I am trying to make a point here but I am actually asking a question. I mean, if you left 8 deep supers of honey on your hive - more than enough to overwinter a hive, and NOT bringing into this discussion the pests and chimneying that might bring about - the hive isn't going to be super active just because of that are they?? If the 8 extra supers wouldn't affect activity levels and consequently, food consumption - as TH&THB states that is mainly based on temperature, why would additional sugar? Are you intimating that additional food stores might cause an increase in brood rearing prior to external temperatures and flora which would be needed to sustain it?? I am lost here on both sides of the argument..<

Additional amounts of honey stored in the comb will not increase the consumption of stores. But...take that colony that has 8 deep supers of capped honey, and pour some syrup into the top, and let it run down through the hive. The bees will clean up the mess. I also think the bees will clean up the mess caused by adding sugar to the top of the cluster. 

>Some of you don't feed sugar at all, or frown on it unless you absolutely need it, others feed sugar to keep the hive condensation under control, and others put it on just in case on all hives... I have already put out over $500 in books, clubs, subscriptions, etc... and I don't even have a darn hive yet.. and am looking at putting out close to $1,000 then... So.... is there a consensus here?? 'Cause betwixt the books and the conversation, I am a little confused..<

I bet you are confused. Does TH & THB tell you you must add sugar to your colonies to control moisture? No. Do they tell you to add sugar to a colony just in case? No. They...beekeepers who have written one of the best "how to" textbooks on beekeeping, tell you that capped honey is the best management. 

Several of the best beekeepers in the Northeast US discussed this with me via emails. While I won't include their names here, because I didn't ask their permission, I will add their comments.

A beekeeping educator who most of you know, and pay to lecture to your clubs, and has more than 45 years of experience educating you all said,

"Mike Virtually NO SCIENCE - just practice. In warmer climates feeding dry sugar is NOT a problem as bees move about on warmer days, have excess moisture in their gut to use to liquify (and heat cluster moisture rises to help moisten the dry sugar too), and it is a good INSURANCE POLICY - YES EMERGENCY feed - not routine. So beekeeprs are getting lazy and behind and then using dry sugar. You are right - do the management correctly in the fall and there is less likely to be a need for EMERGENCY feeding. So I second your comments - DO IT IN FALL for best results - Sugar for unusually warm season for EMERGENCY"

And from a well know Northeast inspector, who is one of the best beemen in the field that I know...

"I'm seeing more beekeepers use the sugar method. I can't agree with this method as a standard routine. I'm seeing that strong colonies can handle the added sugar, but it will kill weak colonies. Prepare your colonies in the fall, and there will be no need for emergency feeding. As far as moisture goes, I use an upper entrance and a homosite board. The water vapor vents to the outside, and nothing else is needed."

And from a beekeeper who has credentials as long as your arm, including working for a huge western queen breeder, working for a major university bee lab, as manager of the apiaries, and as an inspector who is widely recognized as one of the best...

"I always thought that it was used as a
last ditch effort to save bees, or by beekeepers that were so lazy
that they were keen on a method of feeding that requires no work."

As long as this debate continues, I will try to be the voice of reason. Some may think me unreasonable, but...The bees know what they are doing. They never leave unripened stores hanging around for processing during the winter months. If you prepare your colonies in the fall, they will need no emergency feeding, no insurance feeding, and no absorbent on top of the cluster.


----------



## MountainCamp

Michael,
You sound a lot like the guys when I worked as a snowmaker on weekends for a local area.
They had a real bad moisture problem in their compressed air system.
I was told to get used to it "you're a snowmaker" and there is nothing that can be done to fix the problem or even improve it. Lots of people have tried and it is what it is.
I reminded them what I do you a living. We worked on the system and after some trial and error, designed a separator for the Ski Industry.
You might know some of the areas we are in stalled at Stowe, Sugarbush, Jay Peak to name (3) by you.
In fact, over the last 10 years we have put systems in all over North America, including Snow Basin and the Utah Winter Sports Park for the Olympics. We have (2) systems at Whistler Blackcomb for the 2010 Olympics.
I can tell you there are a lot of snowmakers very happy that I did not listen to conventional wisdom.

As previously stated: CONTINUE DOING WHAT YOU DO! DO NOT DO WHAT I DO! I KNOW YOU'RE TEMPTED, BUT PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS.

I have told my hives numerous times over the years, every time someone tells me what I do does not work that they should be dead and just give up. Unfortunately for the package bees sellers they are not listening.

Once I get out of the pool today, I will tell them again.

I have one question for you Northern Beekeepers, How do you take the winters?

Enjoy the snow today.
Scott


----------



## MountainCamp

In all of the posts on this thread, NO ONE HAS GIVEN THE SPECIFIC HARM DONE TO THE COLONY!

There are a lot of "I feel" and "I think", and "it wouldn't work" and "it should not be done".

WHAT IS THE SPECIFIC HARM OR NEGATIVE RESULT?

The colony will be killed because.....

Name one!


----------



## dug_6238

*What harm has been done by feeding?*



Michael Palmer said:


> ...That's certainly a different situation. What you are saying is like...
> 
> You're worried about having enough to eat next month, even though the fridge is full. So, just to be sure, you supersize every meal and gain a hundred pounds. Not necessarily the best plan.


Mike,
I guess bee biology is a little different. I don't think they get overweight.

Besides, the food in the fridge (stored honey) is somewhat non-perishable. They'll have more left in the spring when they start to party. 

And they do seem to be starting to party. This hive as well as all my others are all starting to raise brood - good sign.

_This colony doesn't seem to have suffered any damage_. No harm, no foul. We're all good here, right gentlemen?


----------



## MountainCamp

Doug,
I am good. A little cool and windy today, but the wood furnace is keeping things nice and warm.
Yes, bee biology is different. They don't get over weight or diabetes from eating either sugar or honey. 
Honeybees consume what they need to generate heat, rear brood and survive. They don't get the munchies and binge.
Everything that is excess to their immediate needs is stored in their "pantry" for later use.
The scenario is not in anyway applicable to honeybees.

Scott


----------



## Michael Palmer

MountainCamp said:


> Michael,
> You sound a lot like the guys when I worked as a snowmaker on weekends for a local area.
> They had a real bad moisture problem in their compressed air system.
> I was told to get used to it "you're a snowmaker" and there is nothing that can be done to fix the problem or even improve it.


But MC, I don't have a problem with moisture in my bees, and I don't put sugar on them. Why do you figure?


----------



## Michael Palmer

dug_6238 said:


> Mike,
> I guess bee biology is a little different. I don't think they get overweight.
> 
> Besides, the food in the fridge (stored honey) is somewhat non-perishable. They'll have more left in the spring when they start to party.
> 
> And they do seem to be starting to party. This hive as well as all my others are all starting to raise brood - good sign.
> 
> _This colony doesn't seem to have suffered any damage_. No harm, no foul. We're all good here, right gentlemen?


You missed my point. I fully understand that bees don't get fat. My point was that adding sugar to a colony that already has enough feed for winter is a waste. Perhaps the example I used was a poor choice. I wasn't referring to the "fat" bit. Rather, I meant that eating all the food in the fridge, as insurance against possibly running out of food a month from now...even though there was plenty of food forever....was a waste.


----------



## Michael Palmer

MountainCamp said:


> In all of the posts on this thread, NO ONE HAS GIVEN THE SPECIFIC HARM DONE TO THE COLONY!
> 
> There are a lot of "I feel" and "I think", and "it wouldn't work" and "it should not be done".
> 
> WHAT IS THE SPECIFIC HARM OR NEGATIVE RESULT?
> 
> The colony will be killed because.....
> 
> Name one!


I don't really see the use of continuing this discussion. I thought we could have a debate. This is no debate. I answer your questions, and you ask the same one again. 

We have a basic difference in our beekeeping philosophy. You believe in taking all the honey the bees make, selling it for $4 a pound, and feeding back sugar. I don't. I believe in wintering my bees on honey wherever possible. If that means leaving 80 pounds of honey on my bees for winter, then that's what I do. If I need more honey to sell, I believe in improving my stocks, through selection and breeding. I beleive that what honey I leave on the hive is worth more than $$ when it is turned into spring bees.

When I ask you a question, you seem to ignore it, and go back to, "What's the harm?"

You really haven't discussed your beekeeping management, except a couple vague references. From what I can get from your previous posts, you take off all the honey, because it's worth $4 a pound, and sugar is less expensive. You say that you feed syrup well into November, and then feed 30 pounds of granulated sugar. How much honey are we talking about? How much total sugar are we talking about. 

My long term average is more than 100 pounds per colony. The number of colonies fed sugar varies a bit from year to year, but not by much. This past season was about normal. I fed about 1/3 of my colonies a total of 11 drums of syrup. That averages out over my entire operation to less than 10 pounds per colony. My normal winter loss is 15% or less...provided I keep my varroa under control. My bees have no moisture problems.

I'm not sure if the sugar is for feed, because the bees don't have enough feed for winter, or it is used solely for a moisture control.

30 pounds of granulated sugar translates into 45 pounds of 2:1 syrup. You also feed syrup into November. How much syrup/sugar do you feed in total to each colony?

You say that you tried wintering bees without sugar, for two years, and had a moisture problem. You say there was water dripping on the bees. I don't doubt it. 

When you feed syrup to bees, they have to ripen it. Part of that process is removing the excess moisture. How much of your moisture problem might be caused by feeding syrup well into November? Without inner cover insulation, and an upper entrance, what happens to that moisture? It condenses on the inner cover and drips on the bees. You tried to control the moisture problem before you used sugar...how? 

So, that's what I believe. My philosophy on keeping bees is to learn what the bees do...I think they know best...and imitate them and help them in their ways. Your's is about 180 degrees different. You take all their honey, feed syrup late, and then try to control the moisture problem with a band-aid method. Band-aid methods eventually fail. 

I guess it really is pointless to go on with this. I'm not going to change my philosophy on beekeeping. It's worked well for 34 years. It's a more natural way, and I believe that's the best route to go. I know fully well that I won't change your philosophy. That's ok with me. I just hope that other beekeepers will look at this debate, and see my point, and learn how to manage their bees so the bees can set up their winter broodnests the way they want.


----------



## MountainCamp

Michael, again I have never said that what you do does not work nor have I told anyone not to follow your practices.

You are the one jumping up and down over a practice you don't use nor have ever tried. 

There are many ways to solve a problem.

Again your scenario does not work here or for bees. 

Honeybees by nature hoard stores. Whether they have 1# or 100# of stores in excess of what they need to winter. Anything that they don’t use today will be there tomorrow.

You have a target weight for a wintering hives. Do they have stores come spring? How much in the way of stores? 
If they do not and you have to feed, then did you not do your proper fall prep?
If they have stores remaining did you over stuff the pantry?

The answer in both cases is no. Some colonies eat more stores than expected, some eat less. But, as long as they have access to “stores” they will have a better chance of survival. If they do not have “stores” to consume they will surely perish.

Since, we are looking for the ”bible” (TH & THB)to shed some light here, here goes:
On page 636 & 637 they discuss feeding dry sugar in fall to boost stores, during spring, and also during winter. During winter they are discussing dry sugar as emergency feeding. They discuss the winter cluster using condensation to make use of dry sugar. 
They also discuss using wax paper to place dry sugar above the brood nest.

I don’t see anywhere that it is prohibited, unless it is an emergency.

The TH & THB also discusses placing something moisture absorbent in the top of the hive, like straw, newspaper, homasote, etc. I also did not see anywhere that sugar is a prohibited moisture absorbent product.

As far as Dry Sugar killing a “weak hive” or bees only having “water in their stomachs” to use for dry sugar. I think that some additional reading is in order for those holding that position.

I ask again for (1) “Dry sugar placed on paper on the top bars will kill or cause harm by” ….. or it will have the following negative impact because….

Still waiting on this….

Because the question has not been answered, the answers given are "quiet cluster" and "not needed".

Again enjoy the coming snow you Northern Beekeepers…

A lazy Southern Beekeeper,
Scott


----------



## MountainCamp

Michael, 

You really need to go back to the start of this thread and re-read it. Read my posts. You're assumption and conclusions do not come from reading anything that I have written.
My techniques or practices have been put forth many times on many topics over the last eight years here.
-I winter in (2) deeps, any honey within is the clusters.
-I winter with a felt paper wrap and an empty box.
-I place sugar on paper on the top bars for additional "stores" and moisture control.
-I feed a light syrup in the fall to stimulate brood rearing for young bees to winter with. 
-I do not use any over the counter mite controls. I have used Wintergreen and Spearmint oils in syrup, as well as tried OA Trickle a few years ago.
-I work full-time as an engineer, PT for a Local PD, and do security at various places during the year.
-Beekeeping is a "sideline" that I enjoy doing and make a few bucks at. However, it is worked around my schedule that pays my bills.

I think that most people reading this thread have a good idea where we both stand and can make their own minds up as to what they want to practice and or try.

Scott


----------



## Shrtcke

*winter loss*

This is our second overwintering. We have 2 hives. We have not successfully overwintered yet. It appears that the bees froze. There are plenty of stores in the upper hive body. Full frames of honey, atleast 3 frames on either side of the brood nest. We thought maybe we should be wrapping the hives for winter. Any thoughts or suggestions.


----------



## MountainCamp

Where are you in Otsego County?
I have found that wrapping does help and it makes a difference.
I set all yards up for winter so that they get full sun and with the black wrap the solar gain allows the cluster to loosen more often.


----------



## Shrtcke

Our hives are located in Hartwick, about 6 miles from Cooperstown. I had one hive apart today. There are a few capped brood cells and some eggs, some visible lavae in upper hive body. So the queen was active.They were alive (buzzing inside) the end of Feb. beginning of March. We were hopeful they would make it. We are still pretty new at this. Not sure how or when to feed dry sugar. As I said they had plenty of stores but didnt appear they could get to it maybe because of weather. Lots of dead bees throughout the hive, even frames filled with honey. Maybe they couldnt cluster quick enough before it got cold one day. How long have you been beekeeping? What do you recomend wrapping the hives with? Thanks for you input.


----------



## MountainCamp

I am going into my 12th season.
I wrap with felt paper to provide wind protection and solar gain.


----------



## Kelly Livingston

I finally found this thread!! I've been nagging people on this post http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217005 
but you guys brought this thing to the forefront on this thread.

Most of my points have already been touched on here, but I just really like this discussion so maybe this will spark some more fun. Unlike MC and MP, I have zero years of experience and no numbers to back my position. This is purely an indulgence in my academic curiosity.

Michael-
You wanted to end this debate acknowledging that there was little science and quantitative numbers to prove anything and basically to each his own. I think of all the people, you DO have the numbers and records to show the results of your methods. You pointed that out on this page with extensive calculations of cost of your current method. And as you should, it is your livelihood. That being said, the motto of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" or (it's worked for beeks for hundreds of years) is not (IMO) an excuse to not innovate and try new things. That does NOT mean that we should ignore the past. It is very arrogant and foolish to think that I or MC or anyone is outsmarting centuries of tried and true beekeeping and maybe you are right that this method isn't better, perhaps different or whatever.

Also, I can't agree with you more about doing things naturally (using honey that the bees have ripened, using no harsh chemicals, letting nature do what it does best), but MC made a point that removable frames, insulate inner covers, and the very concept of box for a home is unnatural. I'm going to put out a theory that I want your opinion on:
moisture drips on a hive, because a (near) level box means condensate can't find an easy path to the side walls to drip down, so it collects and eventually drips where it is. This chinese water torture (as someone called it) is what kills a cluster. 
What happens in nature is a hive resides in some blob of a cave in a tree, normally with a roof (ie no top entrance) and then propolizes everything, sometimes narrowing down entrances sometimes not. But the moisture is still there and it condenses on the top and drips down the side easily(you can challenge this). Also, the "rotting or semi rotting wood" of that ceiling is going to have some moisture absorbing capability greater than our lumber boxes(you can challenge this). If you agree with that, then the very fact that we use boxes is what causes this "unnatural" moisture problem. Once you admit that this isn't bees doing what they have been doing for millions of years, the shades of grey leave it to the beek as to what is the threshold of "natural practices" they want to pursue. Your "unnatural" (this is not an attack) solution is to provide a vent and it works. But at what cost? 

People talk about a bees micro climate and the cluster not heating the whole box, I think this to a great extent, oversimplification. We do a lot of things that just make sense when it comes to the HVAC of a hive. Insulation, windbreaks, and entrance reducers all work to keep cold air out, why? Because that affects the cluster! Having an upper entrance goes AGAINST these practices of trying to keep drafts of cold air out of a hive interior. Furthermore, this sugar dome emulates the water absorbing capability of a colonies NATURAL environment. But that isn't to say that an upper vent doesn't work, it just does, decades of beeks have discovered that. But at what cost? My answer is BTUs. A colony that has an upper entrance will have to generate more heat because there will be greater ability for cold air to penetrate into the hive. It is worse though, not only does cold air get in but warm air, loaded with water (one of the BEST thermal energy absorbers) escapes! 

This means one thing... it takes more energy to overwinter. And that is the point I think has been least explained. I hypothesize (you can and should challenge this) that a a hive with 90 lbs of ripened feed (sugar or otherwise) with 30 lbs of dry sugar on top that is WELL SEALED will overwinter as well as a hive with 150-160 lbs of ripened feed only and a top entrance. And this is because you use less energy to heat the hive. The source of the heat (honey or sugar) doesn't matter and if you could find SUPER crystallized honey and put that on top of paper as a dome, it would do the SAME thing as sucrose. So I guess what I'm saying is this is a trade off. Do you want to have a natural diet for the bees or do you want to have a "more" natural living environment (this is perhaps a stretch) ?

As a business, it just makes sense to try this method because while I made up the numbers, if you can take 60 lbs more per hive (30 lbs in saved "heating bill" and 30 lbs substituting honey for sugar), this might make it worth your time, labor, and hassle to consider REGARDLESS of the price differential of sugar to honey (which is in your favor anyway). That being said, this isn't always about business and I admire your lifestyle as it is. If you are ever in Delaware, let me know so we can grab more drinks at Deerpark.

MC-
In your method, do you seal off the top completely? If not, why not? Do you have records of overwintering weights? Have you considered using a medium or shallow to cover sugar in order to reduce surface area? Have you considered tilting the hive to make condensate more easily drain to the sidewalls?

I've been wanting to talk to people about this for weeks now... I hope my excitement doesn't scare you guys off.....


----------



## MountainCamp

In your method, do you seal off the top completely? 
No, I make no effort to completely close down all upper ventilation. I also do not make any effort to increase or provide upper ventilation either.

If not, why not? 
I have not found it to be needed. As you noted the vast majority of the heat energy that would be lost in “held” within the vapor. Since this vapor is being absorbed by the sugar, so then is the heat it contains.

Do you have records of overwintering weights? 
I have never weighted a hive. I basically do a simple lift of the back of the hive. If it is very light I try to feed more, and watch the hive more during the winter / spring. If it feels good, I worry less about that hive and if it is very heavy, I set it up with a little less sugar and again worry less.

Have you considered using a medium or shallow to cover sugar in order to reduce surface area? 
I don’t have a set upper box size. I have mediums, deeps, and rough boxes in between. The surface area of the inside of the box really dos not concern me because it is simply a surface for any condensate to form that will not fall on the cluster or sugar pile. The surface area of the sides is all that changes with box size. The cover / inner cover surface area remain the same.

Have you considered tilting the hive to make condensate more easily drain to the sidewalls?
All of my hives are tilted forward. But, if you have ever watched water flow and drip, as “drops” coalesce into a larger drop, they fall, when an imperfection is encountered a drip forms / falls.


----------



## peggjam

"A colony that has an upper entrance will have to generate more heat because there will be greater ability for cold air to penetrate into the hive. It is worse though, not only does cold air get in but warm air, loaded with water (one of the BEST thermal energy absorbers) escapes!"

You can't have it both ways. On the one hand you state moisture in a hive kills, and on the other you say removing moisture from the hive kills...which is it?

For example, I know I can take the outside cold much longer if i'm not wet, but if I get wet, then I freeze out much faster. Same applies to bees. Cold but dry, is much better than cold and wet.

Also I have seen plenty of bee trees that have upper entrances.


----------



## Kelly Livingston

Kelly Livingston said:


> moisture drips on a hive,... is what kills a cluster


Just because I'm in a damp cave doesn't make me cold... if I'm in a damp cave standing under the only stalactite that has dripping water, then I'm wet and cold... not until then...

Moisture itself does not kill a hive.... moisture that condensates and drips on the cluster will kill it but moisture that resides on the sidewalls and on the floor does not. In fact, it protects the hive, here's why.

Example: People water their oranges in 20 degree weather.... why would you do that? Because water creates heat when it freezes...it will stabilize the temperature of the oranges so that they never dip below 30 degrees because the layer of ice insulates and generates heat for them. If you have a layer of moisture that is freezing on the walls of the hive, the interior of the hive wall won't dip below 32 degrees provided there is no convection of heat (IE air currents/drafts/upper entrances). Obviously, there will be some convection, but minimizing it is the goal. 

Michael-
If you don't want to feed sugar, you can replace the sugar dome with a dome of any absorbent material (sponges, hay, whatever). The key is to put some kind of roof over the bee cluster that will absorb moisture, protect against dripping moisture from the inner cover, and divert any excess drippage it can't absorb towards a sidewall and not the cluster. This will keep the moisture inside the hive to heat it as it 1) condenses and 2) freezes


Here is some quick math for you....
Say we let 1 gram or 1 mL of water vapor that leaves the cluster at a core temperature of 70 degrees condense, drip on a side wall and freeze.
That's 540 calories to condense it, 70 calories to drop the temp, and 80 calories to freeze it for a total of 690 calories or 2.88 kJ. Now, if that one mL of water does all this in 29 seconds, that is the equivalent of sticking a 100 watt lightbulb in your hive. The downside, of course, being that you a generating about 120 mL of water/hour or about a quart of condensate in a single 8 hour night which is very difficult to manage. But that heat didn't come from nowhere, it was lost by the bees that used honey to make it, about 
1/100th of a tablespoon per gram of condensate. Or about 10 tablespoons for an 8 hour night. Just imagine honey dripping out of your upper vent instead of some horizontal icicle, because that is what is happening.

Obviously, this is an oversimplification and there is still condensate in upper vented hives and there is much more at play. The point is.... if you can keep your cluster from getting dripped on, water will heat a hive REALLY well. It's just plain thermodynamics


----------



## Michael Palmer

Kelly Livingston said:


> If you don't want to feed sugar, you can replace the sugar dome with a dome of any absorbent material (sponges, hay, whatever). The key is to put some kind of roof over the bee cluster that will absorb moisture, protect against dripping moisture from the inner cover, and divert any excess drippage it can't absorb towards a sidewall and not the cluster. This will keep the moisture inside the hive to heat it as it 1) condenses and 2) freezes


I suppose that's one way to skin the cat. But...

You can prevent the condensation from happening in the first place. Bees give off lots of water vapor from their winter cluster. This condenses when it comes in contact with cold surfaces. If the inner cover is cold, it will condense there, and drip on the cluster. 3 simple steps will prevent this.

1. Insulate the inner cover. I close the escape hole with duct tape, and place a square of 2" foam on the inner cover. Scrape all the burr off the inner cover, so the foan sits directly on the inner cover. You can also use an empty super of an insulating material such as dry leaves, hay, straw, etc. Close the escape hole so the bees don't chew the foam, or so the insulation doesn't get wet. Wet insulation is no insulation.

2. Leave a wide open bottom entrance. Use a wedge of 1/2" hardware cloth to prevent mouse intrusion.

3. Provide an upper entrance. I use a notch cut into the inner cover rim. This becomes the bees' upper entrance. 

The warm water vapor will rise, and exit the top entrance...before it ever condenses on the inner cover. There is no need for any absorbent of any kind. No need for a sugar dome. No need to visit your apiary regularly during the winter to renew the absorbent. No additional expense.

I know some here believe this use of absorbent in some way is the crucial link in the bees' winter survival. I don't think so. Proper preparation in the Fall is all that's needed.

I know what's been written in this thread already. I'm not trying to get into that again. It just seems to me that the discussion is too one sided. If absorbent was so critical, why can I winter my 700 colonies successfully with no moisture problems? Yes, I suppose that an absorbent would work. Perhaps some sort of inner cover that diverts the moisture to the side walls of the hive might, too. I'm just asking, why? Why go through all that, when a simple mechanical solution works so well.


----------



## Michael Palmer

Kelly Livingston said:


> This means one thing... it takes more energy to overwinter. And that is the point I think has been least explained. I hypothesize (you can and should challenge this) that a a hive with 90 lbs of ripened feed (sugar or otherwise) with 30 lbs of dry sugar on top that is WELL SEALED will overwinter as well as a hive with 150-160 lbs of ripened feed only and a top entrance. And this is because you use less energy to heat the hive. The source of the heat (honey or sugar) doesn't matter and if you could find SUPER crystallized honey and put that on top of paper as a dome, it would do the SAME thing as sucrose. So I guess what I'm saying is this is a trade off. Do you want to have a natural diet for the bees or do you want to have a "more" natural living environment (this is perhaps a stretch) ?


I will challenge this. Remember, you're in Newark, Delaware, and I'm in St. Albans, Vermont. Do you actually need 90 pounds of stores, plus 30 pounds of sugar to winter in a Delaware winter? I somehow doubt it. And, you're padding the figures to make your point. Who would winter their colonies with 150-160 pounds of stores??? Why would anyone winter their bees with 90 pounds of stores, AND 30 pounds of a sugar dome?? Perhaps you misread what I wrote. My target weight is total weight of the hive. That would be hive, bees, pollen, and honey. At 150-160 lbs total, I'm leaving 80-90 pounds of feed. This ensures enough winter stores for the colony to have plenty of food well into April, and in most cases until Dandelion bloom. Plenty of stores with no sugar dome. I just completed my first inspection of 14 apiaries, of approximately 20 colonies each. I fed less than 10 colonies. 2 starved. None had moisture problems.

I don't understand your last statement. How am I trading anything off? My bees diet is mostly honey, but supplemented with sucrose syrup when needed. Not totally natural, I guess. Just what is a "more" natural living environment? Dumping 30 pounds of sugar on top of a cluster?? How about having the bees place their winter stores in the comb, where they've done so for eons of time. That, I believe, is your "more" natural environment.

We can argue this topic ad nauseum. I only put forth what I've learned in my 35 years of beekeeping in the northern Champlain Valley of VT and NY. Those interested in successfully wintering their bees can listen or not. Dump sugar on your bees if you want to. Construct some special appliance to divert water to the sidewalls of your hives if you feel the need. Just remember, there are generations of beekeepers who winter bees in the north without any of that. How come, all of a sudden, the bees need all this extra attention, and expense? Instead of arguing with me, or pointing out where my management might be wrong, why not just prepare your bees properly in the Fall. 

Not sure when I'll be in Newark again for a trip to Deerpark. Are you going to the Virginia meeting this weekend? We can continue the discussion there, if you want.


----------

