# Warre question



## SteveBee

I know this section of the forum is for TBHs, but I've seen some Warre people lurking around in here, too. I have just finished reading Beekeeping For All and am planning to build two Warre hives for spring. I am building the standard version, not modified.

In the Warre plans, it shows the top bars as 11/32" thick. I plan on using 3/4inch thick lumber for my hive. Can I make my top bars 3/4" thick with no adverse affect? If not, what's the best way to split my 3/4" bars with a table saw? Splitting each one seperately seems like a lot of work, and my blade won't go high enough to do two at once. 

I've seen top bars for sale on one of the sites that sells this type hive (you know who you are!) for $1 each. That's an extra $64 that I don't really want to spend. 

Any additional advice would be appreciated! I'm buying lumber today and will start with the roof and work down. Thanks.


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## Trithemius

This link might be helpful.

Warré Top-Bar Construction


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## Adam Foster Collins

SteveBee said:


> I know this section of the forum is for TBHs, but I've seen some Warre people lurking around in here, too...


Don't Warre hives fall under the top bar hive category? I know they're vertical, but they are a top bar design aren't they?

I'm really interested in them as well. I really like my ktbh's, but I also really like a lot of the principals and logic behind the Warre. I just can't decide if I want to get into another hive type, or to keep learning with the ktbh and get proficient there before doing more experiments with other hives.

All fun though...

Adam


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## Buz Green

I rip my boards down to the width and thickness dimensions before I cut them to length. That way I can run long pieces through the table saw and stack and cut them to length a bunch at a time.
If I am using 3/4" pine I rip it to 1 1/8" x 3/4" strips and then rip each of those exactly in half on the 3/4" side which gives me 5/16" x 1 1/8" top bars.


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## beez2010

SteveBee said:


> In the Warre plans, it shows the top bars as 11/32" thick. I plan on using 3/4inch thick lumber for my hive. Can I make my top bars 3/4" thick with no adverse affect?


You can make your top bars whatever thickness you want as long as you cut the rebates to match. The bees don't care. Mine are 1cm thick because that is Warre spec. and what my customers expect.



SteveBee said:


> I've seen top bars for sale on one of the sites that sells this type hive (you know who you are!) for $1 each.


It must be me to whom you're referring since the other guy (I know who he is, too) charges $1.20 each. I must admit though, his are slightly fancier.



SteveBee said:


> Any additional advice would be appreciated!


Be careful....don't cut your fingers off. Use cedar lumber, build with rabbet or box joints, don't paint, use glue when assembling.

Good luck. I hope they turn out nice.


Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## Michael Bush

3/4" is about twice 11/32". The results will be less attachments between boxes (I would consider that a good thing but it will make less "ladders" between boxes). That's what I'd use (the 3/4").


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## beez2010

Michael Bush said:


> 3/4" is about twice 11/32". The results will be less attachments between boxes (I would consider that a good thing but it will make less "ladders" between boxes). That's what I'd use (the 3/4").


Michael,

I am curious as to what your reasoning is for drawing that conclusion. Just to ts be sure you're understanding Steve correctly, he is referring to the thickness, or depth of the top bars. Not the width. The bars are about 1 1/8inch wide, just like typical lang fame top bars. You think the _thickness_ of the bars would result in fewer attachments from one box to another? Just wondering if that's what you meant and if so, why? Thanks.

Chris


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## Michael Bush

It is documented (and it is consistent with my experience) in all of the old bee journals (late 1800s to early 1900s), the old ABC XYZ of beekeeping (late 1800s to mid 1900s) and the old C.C. Miller books (fifty years among the bees etc.) that a thick top bar is what keeps them from connecting between boxes. A thin top bar encourages connections between boxes.


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## beez2010

Thank you, Michael, I had not heard that before.

Chris


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## Adam Foster Collins

Michael Bush said:


> It is documented (and it is consistent with my experience) in all of the old bee journals (late 1800s to early 1900s), the old ABC XYZ of beekeeping (late 1800s to mid 1900s) and the old C.C. Miller books (fifty years among the bees etc.) that a thick top bar is what keeps them from connecting between boxes. A thin top bar encourages connections between boxes.


Is there a quick explanation why? Or a page number in 50 years among the bees I can look to?

Thanks,

Adam


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## Michael Bush

I've seen 50 years among the bees as a text PDF. I suppose one could search there. It seems like Miller gave someone credit for the observation. Seems like ABC XYZ just repeated the observation, partly, I'm sure, because they had considered it in their frame design. I did an exact quote on here once, so you might find it searching beesource... I just don't have my library hand nor the time to look it up right now.

Here are a couple of discussions on it:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205793&
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189016&


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## Liberty Nut

a quick search of 50 years among the bees turns it up on page 46.


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## Adam Foster Collins

Yes. I found it, thanks. Very interesting. 

Adam


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## Zonker

Another Warre hive question ... If the quilt is sealed in by the roof so that it isn't ventilated what does it do? Attic insulation? Seem to me that it would work more effectively at controlling condensation if it was open to the air.


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## Buz Green

Zonker said:


> Another Warre hive question ... If the quilt is sealed in by the roof so that it isn't ventilated what does it do? Attic insulation? Seem to me that it would work more effectively at controlling condensation if it was open to the air.


The quilt is covered by the roof but not "sealed in". The bees can't get up there to propolise the seams so the the moisture escapes through the seam but a lot of the heat stays.


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## Ueli Hoffmann

These links may help you visualize the roof and quilt box.

Warré Hive Plans

Warré Quilt Box

Warré Roof


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## beez2010

The purpose of the quilt is both to insulate the hive _and_ to disipate moisture. I understand what you are asking when you say that the roof "seals" the quilt, since the sawdust in the quilt is not open to direct airflow. But what you need to understand is that only a true moisture barrier like heavy paint or plastic will prevent moisture from escaping. Heat carries the moisture up and into the quilt filler, which works best if it is sawdust since sawdust is very hygroscopic (readily absorbs moisture). Once the moisture is there, it travels right through the wood as it cools and out of the hive. I have never found the sawdust in my quilts to be anything more than slightly damp. The only time there's ever any evidence of real dampness (sawdust clumping somewhat) is in the summer during the honey flow, since bees are actively dehydrating lots of nectar and the outside air is more humid. Hope this helps.

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## Adam Foster Collins

The solid bottom for the roof configuration is something that I have questioned as well. It seems like it should be perforated to some degree to facilitate the moisture getting out.

Adam


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## beez2010

Yes, lots of people wonder this same thing. As I have stated in my previous post, there is absolutely no need for the sawdust to have direct exposure to the air. Anyone who has ever used a quilt on a beehive knows this to be true. One person on this forum told me that he "knew" that a quilt would turn into a brick of ice in the winter and kill the bees. Interesting what people "know" to be true when they've never even used something. People tell me all the time that they "Know" leaving screened bottom boards open all winter will freeze the bees. Nobody told my bees, apparently, since they've had open screened bottoms for several winters when nightime temps sometimes dip as low as -30F. Don't question it until you try it. Quilts have been used in this way or very similar ways for right around 300 years. They work.

Chris Harvey


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## Zonker

i wonder if the quilt works different in different climates, maybe working best in cold wet or dry climates, but not as well in hot humid climates (in case someone is beekeeping in the jungle). I also wonder if you could fiddle with it seasonally to allow more venting in a humid summer. PS - thanks beez for the advise and the links


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## Zonker

and yet another Warre question ... if you're only placing in the spring and pulling them in the fall and not bothering them in between, why would you care if the bees built their comb straight? Don't you take the whole comb when you're harvesting anyway? I no there are laws, but the state apiarist seems way too busy to bother me so ....


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## beez2010

Zonker,

I answer this question on the page titled "Hive Inspections". The bees _do_ occasionally make crooked combs but as you have already said, it really doesn't hurt anything since the entire box is harvested, wax and all. If they do screw it up, they usually only screw it up the first time the box is drawn. Once there is wax embedded into the top bars, they almost always draw them straight. If you apply beeswax to the top bars of new boxes before you put bees in the hive, that increases the likelihood that they will draw straight combs. I don't typically bother with that though. I have enough to do as it is.

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## Ueli Hoffmann

Often, for reasons speculated but not fully understood, colonies are reluctant to build down into the second box. Some colonies will actually swarm before building downward into empty boxes. However once the colony does build into the second box they are not as hesitant to continue downward into the third and fourth.


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## Zonker

found your web. its great. thanks


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## trentfysty

To the original poster I use 4/4 stock for the top bars. You will need to go to a lumber retailer not a big box store but it allows you to cut the board into slices and get many more bars as you can get the desired width just by slicing the board. 4/4 rough lumber is 1 inch thick. I use poplar as there are very few knots and it seems to hold up well. 

I haven't had issues with bees going into a second box. One thing I have seen done that works well is to pull a bar with comb before they attach it to the side. I wouls say about halfway to filling the bar. Take that bar and move it down into your second box and replace the bar in the top box with an empty bar. The bees will draw new comb on the empty bar in the top box and it will encourage them to move to the second box as there is comb already there. Others in Colorado that keep warre hives have done this with great success.


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