# Probiotics as defense against nosema?



## baithe

In a report on the joint conference of the ABF and AHPA recently held in Sacramento, published in the March issue of ABJ, there was mention of the fact that scientists at the USDA lab have identified 8 species of bacteria in a healthy bee gut. One of these is lactobacillis, unfortunately the only one specifically mentioned. The article went on to say that the use of antibiotics in the hive (which are used as a prophylactic against nosema) destroys these organisms.

This is ironic, since we know that healthy intestinal flora is crucial to proper intestinal function! 

This has raised a question in my mind about the possibility of using probiotics as an additive to food patties as a possible natural defense against nosema. 

Has anyone else ever had this thought? Has anyone ever tried it? 

Would appreciate feedback and/or comments. 
Thanks.
Baithe


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## buckbee

IMO the best natural defence against nosema is to provide the conditions in the hive that enable bees to thrive and nosema never to arise as a problem. I don't believe this can easily be done using framed hives.

Nosema is aggravated by cool, damp conditions, especially during overwintering. The thermodynamics of framed hives almost inevitably cause these adverse conditions. 

Chemical treatments are not necessary if the hive is right.


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## Tim Hall

This I find a fascinating proposal. I once scratched open my index finger, and somehow caught an MRSA infection so bad I was in the hospital for a week. This incident completely changed my perspective on chemical culture. Now not a day goes by that I don't ingest some form of live cultured food...most of it I culture myself.

It's my very limited understanding that stored pollen undergoes some lactic-acid fermentation (by the lactobacilli), and I have always been curious what role this might play in the dynamic of the hive. Of course the pollen itself, before gathering, probably contains a plethora of endospores just waiting to be activated by bee saliva.


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## Dinor

If these flora is as you say present in the bee gut naturally, why then give them more. If you don't give them anti-biotics to begin with then surely you will not be destroying these beneficial naturally occuring bacteria.


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## NW IN Beekeeper

[...unfortunately the only one specifically mentioned.]

Probably FORTUNATELY! 

Seems MAN reads one article and implies he has to tinker with it to make things BETTER. But nature is a BALANCE that man's feeble mind tends to not completely comprehend. 

MAN tries to make everything fit his understanding instead of being how it actually is. 

Even within this conversation, MAN is trying to force an improvement on digestion and infection with the ASSUMPTION that the digestive systems work the same for bees as it does in man. 

While we need bacteria to complete digestion of some food, the same is not true for bees. While some bacteria may hold beneficial properties by holding down some infections, more is not always better. In fact, while the bacteria maybe beneficial, it does not imply it is NECESSARY for their survival. 

The treatment of pollen with lacto-bacillus isn't for digestive improvement, but for long term storage. Fortunately, certain enzymes arise from the process that do greatly improve honeybee health. 

The best proactive natural defense you can provide your bees is making adequate quality forage available as much of the year as possible. In doing so, the bees limited immune system will cleanse much of the disease on its own. Good nutrition results in the fastest healing from disease or injury.

The second necessary thing is as BuckBee said, keeping good husbandry practices like avoiding excessive cold, dampness, or draft (all issues of stress that compromise the immune system). Includes with keeping a quality environment is protection from parasites such as mites and beetles.
Bees depend on YOU for their placement because YOU take that choice away from them by placing them where YOU want them. That's a lot of responsibility. 

Along with BuckBee's comment and my rant about human placement of colonies, is the matter of house keeping. By buying or capturing bees and putting them in boxes of YOUR choice, you have to be sure that you are providing a healthy home. I find very few people that know what it takes to properly sanitize equipment. Not every disease requires the same method, and no one method is universal for every disease (though a few come close).

Read, study, observe and let nature do its thing. 
Intervene where you have created the responsibility to react.
Stop assuming the bees need more chemicals from you to survive.

I do not blindly comment on these issues. 
I too once did not understand and violated these conditions and suffered the consequences. 
But you too can learn and advance yourself into being a better beekeeper.
Your bees will greatly appreciate it.


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## NW IN Beekeeper

[Now not a day goes by that I don't ingest some form of live cultured food...most of it I culture myself.]

Geeze....Sounds like you are ready to open a GNC for bees? 

Perhaps I can open a BeeBucks next door and serve little Bee-mochas. 
Just what *I* think, bees need a caffine BUZZ. 

Wonder what they think they need? 
Guess I don't have to wonder, they gather what they need.


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## Tim Hall

NW IN Beekeeper said:


> [Now not a day goes by that I don't ingest some form of live cultured food...most of it I culture myself.]
> 
> Geeze....Sounds like you are ready to open a GNC for bees?


Not what I was implying at all. And since "most of it I culture myself," you'll never find me buying consumer trash in a GNC. What I did say very specifically is I've always been curious what role the lactic-acid fermentation of pollen plays in the hive. And of course the reason I'm curious is because fermentation is so important to me.

May I ask, respectfully, where you've gained your knowledge and experience with bees and their connection to lactobacilli? If you know more, I would like to hear it.


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## Tim Hall

NW IN Beekeeper said:


> Perhaps I can open a BeeBucks next door and serve little Bee-mochas.
> Just what *I* think, bees need a caffine BUZZ.


Did you miss the part where I said I'm against chemical culture?


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

I don't how probiotics works for bees, but I sure know what it has done for me. Search for kombucha here on beesource. It's not a benign substance, although it acts slowly, takes about a month for full effect.

I've got the kombucha. Now, I need the bees.

Kombucha is a miracle. Water kefir is a very refreshing and satisfying. Milk kefir is very unique and I've quickly developed an acquired taste for it. Caspian sea yorgurt is a delight, although tricky to catch at just the right stage.


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## Tim Hall

I make kefir on a daily basis. Kombucha I have not tried since I avoid caffeine. I also make my own suaerkraut, kimchi, koji, miso and koji pickles (and of course mead). I also like gardening bare-handed because it lets all the microbes in the soil get to know me a visa versa.  It's all about an ethic of being patient and respectful with what I consume...no fast food for me.

I have no idea whether bees need gut flora for _digestion_ like many other creatures, but I have a feeling our microbial allies play a much larger role in the hive than simply extending the life of pollen. They are the most easily over-looked of creatures afterall.


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## baithe

NW IN Beekeeper said:


> [...unfortunately the only one specifically mentioned.]
> 
> Probably FORTUNATELY!
> 
> Seems MAN reads one article and implies he has to tinker with it to make things BETTER. But nature is a BALANCE that man's feeble mind tends to not completely comprehend.
> 
> MAN tries to make everything fit his understanding instead of being how it actually is.
> 
> Even within this conversation, MAN is trying to force an improvement on digestion and infection with the ASSUMPTION that the digestive systems work the same for bees as it does in man.
> 
> While we need bacteria to complete digestion of some food, the same is not true for bees. While some bacteria may hold beneficial properties by holding down some infections, more is not always better. In fact, while the bacteria maybe beneficial, it does not imply it is NECESSARY for their survival.
> 
> The treatment of pollen with lacto-bacillus isn't for digestive improvement, but for long term storage. Fortunately, certain enzymes arise from the process that do greatly improve honeybee health.
> 
> The best proactive natural defense you can provide your bees is making adequate quality forage available as much of the year as possible. In doing so, the bees limited immune system will cleanse much of the disease on its own. Good nutrition results in the fastest healing from disease or injury.
> 
> The second necessary thing is as BuckBee said, keeping good husbandry practices like avoiding excessive cold, dampness, or draft (all issues of stress that compromise the immune system). Includes with keeping a quality environment is protection from parasites such as mites and beetles.
> Bees depend on YOU for their placement because YOU take that choice away from them by placing them where YOU want them. That's a lot of responsibility.
> 
> Along with BuckBee's comment and my rant about human placement of colonies, is the matter of house keeping. By buying or capturing bees and putting them in boxes of YOUR choice, you have to be sure that you are providing a healthy home. I find very few people that know what it takes to properly sanitize equipment. Not every disease requires the same method, and no one method is universal for every disease (though a few come close).
> 
> Read, study, observe and let nature do its thing.
> Intervene where you have created the responsibility to react.
> Stop assuming the bees need more chemicals from you to survive.
> 
> I do not blindly comment on these issues.
> I too once did not understand and violated these conditions and suffered the consequences.
> But you too can learn and advance yourself into being a better beekeeper.
> Your bees will greatly appreciate it.


Whoa, friend. For the most part, I am in agreement with you. Certainly, as stewards of the earth, man has done a great deal from ignorance, rather than knowledge, and has seriously messed things up in the process. And I am doing exactly as you say - reading, studying, observing and asking questions. I'm just waiting for the snow to melt to plant clover and birdsfoot trefoil seeds for bee pasture. I don't actually have any bees yet, a complete novice, expecting my first packages in April. It is my intention to provide as natural an environment for them as possible, which is partly what prompted my question. One of my greatest concerns at the moment is that they will arrive before there is good pollen and nectar here, and so I'll have to feed them - something which completely goes against the grain to me.

One thing I've gleaned from my studies is that many of the problems bees are currently faced with seem to be the result of irresponsible beekeeping practices, and I share your frustration. Nevertheless, the very premise of beekeeping in this country with any species other than native ones is artificial because by and large, kept bees are imported. By definition, they are not in their natural environment and will have struggles because of it.

You were very quick to ASSUME that I had made ASSUMPTIONS based on reading one article, and accused me of proposing to 'tinker' with things. Not so. I'm only asking. I do think, however, that the question of probiotics in bee nutrition is valid, particularly in light of what you said about lactobacillis being used in the storage of pollen, and the process producing enzymes which are beneficial to bee health. That's very interesting. It begs the question - is there ENOUGH lactobacillis to provide the balance for optimal health? If not, will good husbandry practices be enough to tip the balance in favor of the bees? It seems unlikely that enough people are going to give up pesticides and insecticides soon enough to have a meaningful impact at the rate bees are dying on a global scale. 

You are absolutely right that we need to let nature do its thing. What must be remembered, though, is that MAN is also part of nature. In fact, nothing that has EVER been done has been outside the greater context of NATURE. It is within our potential - our nature - to properly intervene to correct our mistakes. It is axiomatic that if we are capable of getting it wrong, we're equally capable of getting it right. But let us act from love and knowledge, not anger and opinion.


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## Michael Bush

Here some probiotics that live in honey bees I found when searching:

Bifidobacterium animalis
Bifidobacterium asteroides
Bifidobacterium coryneforme
Bifidobacterium cuniculi
Bifidobacterium globosum
Lactobacillus sp.
Lactobacillus plantarum
Lactobacillus bifidus
Lactobacillus acidophilus

Serratia
Gluconacetobacter
IFlavirus
Bartonella sp.
Gluconacetobacter sp.
Simonsiella sp.
Gammaproteobacteria (class)
Pandora delphacis


Dicistroviridae Iflavirus ?

groups:
Bacteriocin
Enterococcusavium
Betaproteobacteria, Alphaproteobacteria, Firmicutes and
Actinobacteria
Neisseria
Simonsiella
Saccharomycotina

Possibly pathogens
Entomophtorales/Entomphthoromycotina
Mucorales/Mucoromycotina
Mucor hiemalis

didn't turn up on a search on this and honeybee, but turned up on a paper.
Lactobacillus cellobiosum



microflora of honeybees
bacteria and fungi in the gut of honeybees


http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conte...1;jsessionid=26yumul4mss6y.alice?format=print


http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=b06857cd4fdbfbb4b5b819e786e87ee0

"Bifidobacterium (Gram-positive eubacteria), Lactobacillus (Gram-positive eubacteria), and Gluconacetobacter (Gram-negative a-proteobacteria); two sequences each clustered with Simonsiella (ß-proteobacteria) and Serratia (?-proteobacteria); and three sequences each clustered with Bartonella (a-proteobacteria). "

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=6802f9ec81dd2483e31faf4c34d5758d

Oxytetracycline as a predisposing condition for chalkbrood in honeybee 

"Antibiotics, particularly oxytetracycline, have been discussed as a possible predisposing condition in the appearance of chalkbrood in the honeybee (Apis mellifera L.). Nevertheless, the scientific data to support this belief have been insufficient. We have developed a method to study the effects of this antibiotic as a predisposing factor under different circumstances. We conclude that oxytetracycline does not increase the risk of chalkbrood in susceptible worker brood in the short or mid-term."

" ... use of antibiotics in the
honeybee can upset the balance of intestinal microflora, favoring the ..."


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15539925&dopt=Citation


http://www.pollinator.org/Resources/Cox-Foster_etal_2007_Science.pdf

"The gut lumen contains the majority of microorganisms in most insects"

http://web.uniud.it/eurbee/Proceedings/Diseases.pdf

"During a study aimed to characterize the intestinal microflora of honeybee larvae
and adults, we found that some lactic acid bacteria inhibit in vitro the growth of these
pathogens. These bacteria, belong to the genus Lactobacillus, are normal inhabitants of
the gut of honeybees and are GRAS (Generally Regarded As Safe).
Strains of this genus have been shown to have important metabolic and protective
functions in the gastrointestinal tract, interfering with enteric pathogens and
maintaining a healthy intestinal microflora."


http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1574-6968.1997.tb12678.x

"Emerging adult bees acquire intestinal microflora by food exchange with other bees in the colony and through consumption of pollen. Biochemical contributions of microorganisms to honey bees; the role of microorganisms in the conversion, enhancement, and preservation of pollen stored as bee bread in comb cells; and the production of antimycotic substances by molds and Bacillus spp. from honey bee colonies that are resistant to the fungal disease, chalkbrood, are discussed. An association of Bacillus spp. with bees including honey bees, stingless bees, and solitary bees from tropical and temperate zones appears to have evolved in which female bees inoculate food sources with these bacteria whose chemical products contribute to the elaboration and/or protection from spoilage of food that is stored in the nest."



http://iussi.confex.com/iussi/2006/techprogram/P1982.HTM

Age-dependent changes in intestinal microflora of honeybee

"Remi Kasahara1, Jun Nakamura2, Yoshikazu Koizumi3, Ayako Mitsui3, and Masami Sasaki4. (1) Graduate School of Agriculture, Tamagawa University, Machida, Tokyo, 1948610, Japan, (2) Honeybee Science Research Center, Tamagawa University, Machida, Tokyo, Japan, (3) Environmental Engineering Center Co., Ltd., Machida, Tokyo, 1948610, Japan, (4) Laboratory of Entomology, Faculty of Agriculture, Tamagawa University, Machida, Tokyo, 1948610, Japan

The intestinal microflora of honeybee was investigated by means of the PCR-DGGE (denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis) method based on the sequence-specific separation of PCR-derived rRNA gene amplicon, which have proven useful in analyses of wide ranged studies in microbial ecology. Entire intestinal contents of adult honeybees were removed with gut wall under sterile conditions and the whole genomic DNA was isolated. PCR was used to amplify 16S rRNA genes from the DNA with a set of bacterial specific GC-338F and universal primers. The former one contains a 40 base GC-rich sequence at the 5’-end. The result of DGGE profiles and the DNA sequence analyses confirmed that the intestinal microflora had already existed in the newly emerged workers (day 0), however, it was very simple at day 0 and consisted of only one or two common bacteria. The DNA sequence of one of those showed the homology to Lactobacillus alvei strain 1G2 with 97% similarity. Then the microflora tended to be complex with age, and in the foragers, the composition of bacteria was varied besides the several common ones. The age dependent changes in higher diversity of the intestinal microflora in foragers are probably due to the higher accessibility to the sources of bacteria, namely foods, nestmates, combs, and outside food sources. We discuss the effects of nutritional status and trophallaxis with other nestmates on the individual intestinal microflora, as well as the effects of season, location and food sources on the colony level intestinal microflora."



http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/70/10/6197

"The genus Bifidobacterium includes gram-positive, pleomorphic, and strictly anaerobic bacteria, which are major constituents of the intestinal microflora of humans, of other warm-blooded animals, and even of honeybees"


http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?&artid=154539

"The other probe, BAN, was able to detect a group of Bifidobacterium species isolated exclusively from blood-warm animals and honeybees (B. animalis, B. asteroides, B. coryneforme, B. cuniculi, and B. globosum), as well as two species isolated from sewage of uncertain origin (B. minimum and B. subtile)"

http://cmr.asm.org/cgi/content/full/19/1/12

"It is the subject of some speculation and debate as to when organisms currently in the genus Hafnia were first isolated. In 1919, L. Bahr worked on a bacterium that he designated "Bacillus paratyphi-alvei," an organism reputedly pathogenic for bees but not mice or guinea pigs (121). One of Bahr's apparently authentic "Bacillus paratyphi-alvei" strains (referred to as "Paratyphus alvei") was subsequently characterized in 1954 as belonging to a new group of enteric bacteria for which Møller coined the name "Hafnia group" during a systematic investigation of amino acid decarboxylase patterns among members of the family Enterobacteriaceae (89). Some groups subsequently questioned the legitimacy of this name in light of the fact that Bahr's strains differed in some biochemical characteristics from those described by Møller. However, Møller considered that Bahr's strain should be regarded as the type species of Hafnia, and he suggested the name Hafnia alvei." 


"The specific epithet in the name Hafnia alvei is derived from the Latin noun alveus, meaning beehive, with "alvei" meaning "of a beehive." Ewing (33) questioned the epithet "alvei," stating that the name implied that these bacteria had something to do with bees or beehives although they did not. However, H. alvei has been recovered on occasion from the intestines of honeybees (Apis mellifera) as well as from honey, and several of these strains are included in the BCCM (Brussels, Belgium) collection (125)."


Need to checkout:
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu70Zn...://www.geocities.com/BeesInd/BeesIndBookG.htm

www.geocities.com/beesind/BeesIndBookK.htm

ibscore.dbs.umt.edu/journal/Articles_all/1999/groves.htm



http://www.beeculture.com/content/News From The CCD Scientists.pdf

"The bacterial sequences were those normally found in bees worldwide,
analyzed by Nancy A. Moran, the Regents' professor of ecology and
evolutionary biology, University of Arizona, and colleagues and Jay
Evans, research entomologist, Bee Research Laboratory, U.S.
Department of Agriculture, Agricultural Research Service and
colleagues."

""The bacteria found were the same as those found in two previous
studies from two different parts of the world at two different times,"
says CoxFoster.
"They represent mutualistic or symbiotic relationships
with the bees, similar to those of humans and the bacteria found in the
human gut.""

"Researchers including Lipkin and Diana CoxFoster,
entomology
professor at Pennsylvania State University, and colleagues have taken
a new approach to investigating infectious disease outbreaks. To find
the cause of CCD they used a rapid genome sequencing technique
called pyrosequencing to catalogue the entire variety of
microorganisms that honey bees harbor. After comparing their
sequences with known sequences held in public databases, they
identified symbiotic and pathogenic bacteria, fungi and viruses found
in both healthy and CCDafflicted
colonies."

"While unquestionably it is important to identify the cause of CCD, this
total genetic study of bees and their fellow travelers also may lead to a
better understanding of other disease causing agents in the population
and to an understanding of the beneficial organisms that reside within
the bee."

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/aug98/bees0898.htm

"Helpful microbes that live in the hives, stored food, and bodies of healthy honey bees enhance many aspects of bee life. Some of the microorganisms produce antibiotics that might hold the key to protecting tomorrow's domesticated honey bees from one of their worst enemies --the harmful Ascosphaera apis fungus that causes chalkbrood disease."

""A natural organism that's already known to occur in hives of healthyhoney bees,"says Agricultural Research Service microbiologist Martha A. Gilliam, "should be easier than a synthetic chemical to register with the federal government as a biological control for chalkbrood."Gilliam is with the ARS Carl Hayden Bee Research Center in Tucson, Arizona."

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=187749

Title: ANTAGONISTIC INTERACTIONS BETWEEN HONEY BEE BACTERIAL SYMBIONTS AND IMPLICATIONS FOR DISEASE. 

"We survey colonies for additional resident bacteria species that directly inhibit the AFB bacterium. We report a large set of such bacteria and discuss how they might be involved in natural disease resistance. These beneficial bacteria also might be introduced to colonies as a means of controlling disease, providing a new tool for beekeepers in controlling this bacterium and reducing reliance on conventional antibiotics."

"Technical Abstract: Insects harbor diverse bacterial symbionts, many of which have strong effects on insect survival and reproduction. Facultatively symbiotic bacteria can affect insect nutrition, immuno-competence, and susceptibility to disease agents. Honey bees and other social insects maintain a diverse microbial biome within which inhibitory and mutualistic interactions are expected."


http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=159450

"Technical Abstract: Honey bee larvae of four ages were exposed through feeding to spores of both a natural pathogen, Paenibacillus larvae larvae and to spores of a diverse set of non-pathogenic bacteria. Larvae responded by upregulating transcription of the gene encoding the antimicrobial peptide abaecin, both when exposed to the actual pathogen and to the probiotic mix. 1st-instar larvae responded significantly to the presence of the probiotic mix within 12 hours after exposure, a time when they remain highly susceptible to bacterial invasion. This response was sustained for two successive larval instars, eventually becoming 21-fold higher in larvae exposed to probiotic spores versus control larvae. The probiotic mix is therefore presented as a potential surrogate for assaying the immune responses of different honey bee lineages. It is also proposed that a dietary exposure to probiotic bacteria might help honey bee larvae, and other life stages, survive attacks from pathogens."


http://www.ias.ac.in/jbiosci/sep2006/293.pdf

"These studies were carried out over three years and included different developmental stages. There
were substantial qualitative as well quantitative differences in the microbial types depending on the
species, developmental stage and the diet. Apis mellifera adults predominantly contained Lactobacilus
wheras larval SSCP patterns had a predominance of bands corresponding to Salmonella enterica var typhi,
uncultured Simonesiella and uncultured Serratia. This is presumably because the food source for forager
bees (honey and nectar) has a low pH of approximately 3.9 and lactobacilli can tolerate this pH. The pH of
larval gut is around 7 and is less favourable for Lactobacilli. On the other hand, the gut from the larvae of
solitary bee O. bicornis showed SSCP patterns quite different from the other two species, which could be
due to different social habit and also difference in development. The gut of this species opens during the
early development of the larvae whereas for the other two species it opens much later, just before pupation.
This would result in differences in physicochemical conditions and thus differences in the microbiota.
Despite these differences, the bacteria from the three different bee species refl ected clusters of highly
similar sequences even from specimens collected from different continents. Both larvae and adults of
A. mellifera contained sequences related to uncultured species of Simonsiella, Serratia, L. crispatus and
Gluconacetobacter. The bacteria could have either survived pupation or were inoculated through food
and/or mouth-to-mouth contact. Interestingly, these sequences, found in all three bee species, were also
reported in other two A. mellifera subspecies. The earlier study on A. mellifera sub-species in South Africa
showed that out of 10 unique 16S rRNA sequences, bacteria from six genera were shared in both subspecies
(Jeyaprakash et al 2003). Studies by Mohr and Tebbe (2006) retrieved 179 16S rRNA sequences, which
represented 68 phylotypes. Among these, the overlap was very high for fi ve genera and these may represent
bacterial species that are highly abundant and cosmopolitan, adapted to survival in the gut.
In summary, it appears that insect guts are reservoirs for a large variety of microbes. Many are poorly
characterized and considering the diversity of insects, there must be novel microbes awaiting discovery.
Our understanding of the biology of insects will be incomplete without a comprehensive understanding
of their gut microbes, as these have a signifi cant impact on various life processes of the hosts. While the
roles of endosymbionts like Wolbachia and Buchnera are better understood, not much is known about the
normal microbial community fl ora. Characterization of midgut microbes using molecular tools is the fi rst
step in understanding their role in insect biology. Application of genomics and proteomics would further
our understanding of their interaction. Genome sequencing projects of such bacteria are underway and
they will eventually help in defi ning the minimal essential genes required for the bacteria to multiply
and survive in insect gut. They will help in distinguishing transient from resident populations and in
understanding interactions between bacteria and their host insects at molecular level."


http://www.jesterbee.com/Beebread.html

Probiotic protein feed for Honey Bees


http://insects.suite101.com/article.cfm/nosema_spp_honeybee_parasites

Spores of Microsporea range in size from about three to six micrometers (a micrometer, or micron, is one one-thousandth of a millimeter), the size of many intestinal bacteria. Nosema apis spores are four to six micrometers long and two to four micrometers wide. They are marvelous organisms, perfectly designed for invading the intestinal cells of their hosts.


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## NW IN Beekeeper

M. Bush:

You have a brand new member with three (3) posts that asks a question. 
In reply you throw a bunch of links and bunch of bacteria names. 

You explain none of the links nor the bacteria. 

It is plain rude to bury a new member (and the rest that care about the topic) in links and data that you do not explain. 

We might as well popped the words in a search engine ourselves.
At least then the person has more options to chose what they feel they can comprehend, rather than feeling an obligation to your request to read your material which may not even apply to the original topic. 

Honestly I don't think you understand the difference between a gram positive and a gram negative bacteria, let alone the metabolic benefits of half the good bacteria you listed. I see this as you bluffing knowledge. 

You included fungi and infectious spores - those are not probiotic in nature - clearly a demonstrations that you are merely flooding us in an attempt to overwhelm and hope we stray from the topic. 

Don't pretend to know, it only hurts the beekeeping community and doesn't help your respect.


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## Tim Hall

Hmmm...somebody is definitely being rude around here. I personally will enjoy going through the links provided by Mr. Bush, and appreciate his posting them. I actually did several searches on this topic yesterday and could not yield many good results. And as I said before, I think Baithe makes a fascinating proposal for discussion.


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

Just some rambling thoughts.

I know what including probiotics has done for me. And I know what it has done for others as well. I sure wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't experienced it for myself.

Let's see. The last prescription drug(antibiotic) I took was in 1986. And the only thing I've had since then has been a few aspirin(less than a dozen). But introducing probiotics has significantly improved my health, in a half dozen different areas.

Is there some magic compound in the kombucha? I think not. It's just alot of little things working together that enable one's body to get back on track. I think there's something endemic in the environment that messes up the delicate balances and relationships necessary for good health.

Maybe some of those essential creatures need to be re-introduced, from time to time. And our agricultural/processing interfere with that process, making the use of probiotics so profoundly effective.

If my health can get so far out of wack, I suspect a similar process could impact the honeybee's health. Honeybees are self-propelled, electrically charged, environmental samplers. And their broodnest is a chemical sink.

As Michael's post show, things aren't at simple as they seem, even with a creature as simple as a honeybee. The use of probiotics probably wouldn't introduce anything new into the honeybee's environment. But it sure might restore a few things man might have inadvertently taken out.

After my experience with small cell and then natural comb, I know how such seemly insignificant changes can significantly effect honeybee health. Inoculating a hive with probiotics would be exceedingly easy. It's a must do test for me.


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## Tim Hall

I have to agree with Dennis' sentiments on this. Antibiotics are not the only thing antagonistic to microflora in our environment.

Whether it's a good idea or not, the approach has already been patented:

_BIOLOGISTS `FIND CURE FOR HONEYBEES'; January 4, 2001; PA News; Emma Pearson

Dr Brian Dancer and Stuart Prince of Cardiff University's School of
Biosciences have, according to this story, discovered an antibiotic that
occurs naturally in beehives and could cure diseases currently scourging the
world's honeybee population.
They were further cited as saying this complex kills the bacteria that cause
both types of foulbrood disease that infects bees and their method has now
been patented by the university with Dr Dancer quoted as saying, "We
envisage that the spores of this 'natural' antibiotic will be fed to bees,
providing them with a protective microflora that could act either
prophylactically or as a treatment in disease outbreaks. Importantly,
because the protective bacteria are unmodified and are naturally derived
from the bee environment, such treatment can only serve to promote the
healthy image of honey and other bee products."_


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## Tim Hall

NW IN Beekeeper said:


> M. Bush:
> ...You included fungi and infectious spores - those are not probiotic in nature...


The term "probiotics" from my understanding is a fairly new one, and more likely a marketing term than a scientific one. If "probiotics" relate only to bacteria, then I suppose you're _technically_ correct. But I know without question certain mycological allies excrete compounds and create other competitive factors that can inhibit less-than-savory fungal guests. This sounds very pro-biotic to me.


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

I've put together a few thoughts about probiotics, bees and my personal experience at:

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/probiotics/

Baithe, thanks for the idea. I wouldn't have put the two together by myself.

Traditionally, beekeepers have looked for life forms that can put the hurt on hive pests. But it's a neat twist to look for those that put health and resilience into the bees.


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## Tim Hall

Dennis,

Thanks for putting together that page. I had also decided that I would seriously conduct some research and possibly experimentation into this matter using my more intuitive methods. I look forward to seeing more information appear on your site. I will likely also tack on a beekeeping page to my website...I will try to keep you all informed of my findings as well.

It occurred to me we could think of this symbiosis in another way. It's really no different than companion planting in your vegetable garden. In other words, if you are going to place bees out of context (in a man-made shelter, in a location they might not otherwise choose on their own, etc.) why not place natural microbial companions in that same context? Or at the very least maybe we should take a serious look at accommodating microflora if not directly introducing them.


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## Michael Bush

>I see this as you bluffing knowledge. 

I am in the middle of trying to salvage a crashed computer. I simply posted my raw notes on the subject. I sorted through a LOT of links to come up with them and thought they might be a useful starting point for the discussion. I apologize. I will not share raw notes again.


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## Michael Bush

>Honestly I don't think you understand the difference between a gram positive and a gram negative bacteria

Yes, I do know the difference. I have 12 semester hours of college biology. I have done gram stains. But that wasn't my point.

>let alone the metabolic benefits of half the good bacteria you listed.

I have no idea the benefits of all of them, but I found them listed as normal flora and fauna in a bee hive and in a bee gut and they seemed like a good starting point to research the question. But it seems like anything that naturally lives in a healthy bee and hive would help displace things that shouldn't live in a healthy bee and hive.

>You included fungi and infectious spores - those are not probiotic in nature 

Yes. They are probiotic in nature. One of the fungi that causes Stonebrood (Aspergillus fumigatus) kills Nosema. The fungus that causes Chalkbrood (Ascosphaera apis) kills EFB.

> clearly a demonstrations that you are merely flooding us in an attempt to overwhelm and hope we stray from the topic.

I was hoping you'd have some leads to research the topic.


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## Grant

Here's more info on probiotics,

http://www.jesterbee.com/Beebread.html

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Michael Bush

>You included fungi and infectious spores - those are not probiotic in nature 

Let's talk a little more about this. Most every mammal (and many other warm blooded animals as well) have E. coli in their intestines. Is it probiotic in nature? In your intestines, yes. In your food, no. In your bloodstream, no. In any other place it's a pathogen. But in your guts it's a normal bacteria that displaces "bad" bacteria. Your skin is covered with Staphylococcus aureus. Is this probiotic or is it a pathogen? On your skin, it crowds out dermatophytes such as fungi and yeasts. If you kill it off you get fungus infections and yeast infections. On the other hand if you let it get into a cut or, worse, into your bloodstream, Staph can kill you. So is Staph a pathogen or is it beneficial? Your mouth is full of bacteria and if you kill it off by using antibiotics, you'll get thrush (yeast infection). Are these bacteria in your mouth beneficial? Many "beneficial" organism provide only the benefit of displacing more dangerous organisms. But that is a HUGE benefit.

Almost all beneficial organisms have a dark side if the integrity of the body or the immune system are compromised.


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## JBJ

MB thanks for sharing your notes, this has been a strong area of interest for me for a while now. When I get a little more time I will share the avenues that I have been exploring.


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## baithe

Gentlemen,

Thank you all so much for your input on this question. It is heartening to me to encounter so many who are interested in exploring new ways to support the bees, and it has been interesting to read what others have to say. Mr. Bush, I particularly want to thank you for taking the time in the midst of your computer crash, to provide all those links. I haven't been able to do the research yet, but I read most of the excerpts in your post and found them very interesting. It is extremely helpful to have a place to begin. I don't feel overwhelmed by your offering at all, and truly hope you won't hesitate to provide this kind of help again in the future as I found it very valuable. 

I haven't been able to read the web pages some of you have posted, but look forward to it as soon as I can. 

I will be out of the country for a few weeks but hope to be in touch after I get back. Best regards to everyone.

Baithe


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## Tim Hall

I have come across a few references to using vinegar in conjunction with feeding to inhibit Nosema. I then found a research article where they tested this theory using acetic acid, and determined that simply acidifying the food (sugar syrup) had no effect on curbing the occurrence of Nosema. Of course acetic acid alone is not all that goes into vinegar, and I think this habit of abstracting or reducing things down to their 'active ingredient' is a major fallacy of science. 

Hippocrates' favorite prescription was vinegar (vinegar likely made from fermented honey), and apple cider vinegar is a well-known American folk remedy for many things (not to affirm or deny its efficacy). Pardon all the hearsay, but I have also heard that raw vinegar can have a powerful alkalizing effect on the human body, while distilled vinegar does the opposite. Incidentally refined sugar is supposed to acidify the human body, while honey does not. I also suspect that raw vinegar may have probiotic properties. In fact all the live-culture fermented foods I'm personally familiar with have a neutral or alkalizing effect on the body, regardless of their own pH.

I can't seem to find the reference to it again, but I understand there may also be a correlation between the bees' pH and incidence of Nosema. Anybody following this crazy train of thought, and have some insights to add here?

Edit:
Found one of the 'hearsays' that brought all this to mind...http://beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216836&highlight=vinegar+nosema post #3


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## Bodo

All that the study did was prove that Acetic Acid wasn't the 'active ingredient'. You have to start somewhere. =D
Vinegar is only ~4-6% acetic acid, as you said. With each compound that doesn't work, you get closer to the one that does.

If it wasn't for scientific reasoning, we'd all be eating green bread mold as an anti-biotic. ;-)


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## Matt Beekman

*Prebotics??????????*

This is a great thread. One aspect of bee nutrition that I have never heard discussed, researched or written about is the whole idea of incorporation of prebiotics in supplemental feeds. Prebiotics are non-digestible carbohydrates that feed gut bacteria. Most fields of animal husbandry have alreay incorporated prebiotics in supplemental feeds. It is not a new thing. 

There are also immune boosting aspects to prebiotics. The most common form of prebiotics in animal feeds is yeast cell walls; also referred to as Saf Mannan or MOS. The following link is discusses this in great detail. I would encourage everyone following this thread or anyone with a remote interest in supplemental feeding of bees to check it out. It is worth mentioning that there is a dosage recommendation for bees for the product marketed by Fermex. I contacted them and supposedly beekeepers in Australia are using their yeast cell wall product. 

http://www.fermex.com.au/img/File/YCWM.pdf

I would be very interested to get some feedback from other posters.


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## hummingberd

baithe said:


> One thing I've gleaned from my studies is that many of the problems bees are currently faced with seem to be the result of irresponsible beekeeping practices


baithe- 

In addition to this idea, a complete disregard for the natural order of how our environment works and our earth as a whole, I believe is affecting our bees. I can control what I put in the ground at my house, but I know the railroad company sprays herbicides along the tracks to keep things clear, and I can't control what my neighbors do with their property.
Because of that, I believe our bees can bee susceptible to too many poisons and disruptive chemicals. Often people take probiotics as a means of prevention in response to the assault on our environment and our (people, animals and bees) exposure to all the junk that gets put into it.

I would love to know how to set up a study. If it's not too fancy, I'd be willing to do some experiments...


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## thenance007

I am seriously considering giving my bees probiotics and would be very interested in any results those of you who have been experimenting with them have been having since the last post to this thread over 3 years ago. The main study I read used capsules of probiotics used for livestock feed, but I don't know enough about measurements to translate how much to give them.

"an initial trial involved feeding Þrst instars a mix of bacterial spores from species in the genera Bifidobacterium and Lactobacillus (B. infantis, B. longum, L. rhamnosus, L. acidophilus, and L. reuteri; Nature's Way, Springville, UT). This mixture was fed to bees at a cumulative concentration
of 2 x 10 to the 6th power cells per microliter of food. All subsequent trials used a similar mix containing L. rhamnosus (20%), L. casei (20%), L. plantarum (10%), L. acidophilus (20%), B. longum (20%), and B. breve (10%; Jarrow Formulas, Los Angeles, CA) fed at a cumulative concentration of 5 x 10 to the 5th power cells per microliter of bee food."

http://www.habeetat.eu/Images/Evans%20&%20Lopez%20bacterial%20probiotics%20induce%20an%20immune%20respinse%20in%20the%20honey%20bee.pdf
Can anyone tell me how much and what kind you are using? I don't brew Kimbucha, so alternatives would be preferred. Thanks
Nancy Knox


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## Michael Bush

It seems to me that the first step is to not kill off the beneficial bacteria and fungi. The next is to maintain the normal pH of the hive to favor those bacteria and fungi. I'm not convinced that I know enough to innoculate them with microbes and know that I have improved anything. If you feed honey (correct pH etc.) and you don't use essential oils (anti microbial) or organic acids (dramatic shift in pH which kills most all microbes) or antibiotics (Fumidil will kill the fungi and Tylosin and TM will kill the bacteria) then you will get the things that should be living in a bee hive and in the bee gut and in the bee bread. The best way to innoculate a hive that is not doing well is to put a frame of bee bread and a frame of bees from a hive that is doing well. This should innoculate the hive that is not with the correct microbes.


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## Gypsi

Bwrangler,

I am interested in how your test turns out. 

Gypsi


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## Keith Jarrett

Gypsi, are you referring to tea?


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## Gypsi

Page 2 post, B-wrangler.
"As Michael's post show, things aren't at simple as they seem, even with a creature as simple as a honeybee. The use of probiotics probably wouldn't introduce anything new into the honeybee's environment. But it sure might restore a few things man might have inadvertently taken out.

After my experience with small cell and then natural comb, I know how such seemly insignificant changes can significantly effect honeybee health. Inoculating a hive with probiotics would be exceedingly easy. It's a must do test for me."

I'm not up to testing anything except getting thru a winter after dearth,


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## Keith Jarrett

Tried that KomBucha tea on nosema,1 cup of straight tea 6 times @ 10 days apart, seemed not have to any effect on them.


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## Gypsi

Thank you. How did you get them to drink it? (I figure it was in sugar water, but my hive doesn't take a whole cup of 2:1 in a day. Robbers are another story)


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## Keith Jarrett

Gypsi said:


> How did you get them to drink it?


I just use the drench method, man I can't choke down that stuff but the bees lapped it right up. Also, I use some weak & strong tea, one had a huge scoby but didn't bother the bees at all.This BTW was a couple of years ago.


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## Hoosier

WHAT ARE PROBIOTICS? 
http://www.jonbarron.org/detoxing-healt … KgodFQoIpA 

*******************
KEFIR - It's like yogurt on steroids.
Kefir is best by far. Not only does it have 42 probiotics (Yogurt has two.) in the forms of good bacterias and yeasts, it's the easiest to work with. I use two two-gallon glass jars with glass tops from Walmart and a plastic colander with long 1/8-inch slits, not small holes. I add a quart or two of milk per day, so I only have to strain it once a week into the other two-gallon jar that goes into the refrigerator; then I wash the first one, dump the grains from the plastic colander back into it, add a quart of milk, cover with a paper sack, and add a quart a day for seven more days. So that's more than a gallon a week for my wife, my chickens, my dogs, and me. I could make a gallon a day now if I wanted to, but... 
The stuff is really something. EVERYONE should be drinking it. http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/Makekefir.html
Watch all ten of this guy's presentations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MELveoRjK8M

BUTTERMILK Its lactic acid and bacteria culture is super healthy. I make it a gallon at a time:
Buy a quart of buttermilk, pour it into a large container with a gallon of milk. Let the five quarts sit at room temperature for 24 hours, stirring occasionally, and you'll have five quarts. Save a quart to use with another gallon of milk later.
BTW, buttermilk will keep for a very long time in the refrigerator.
Store in a glass container(s).

YOGURT MAKE INEXPENSIVE YOGURT THE EASY WAY

You will need:
A small plastic, insulated cooler that will hold:
4 one-quart jars/lids for yogurt/milk OR 2 half-gallon jars/lids for yogurt milk
2 more quart jars to be filled with boiling water
A very large pan to first boil water and then heat milk to 185* F. 

Ingredients:
One gallon of milk (1% to 4%)
One cup (or two heaping tablespoonsful per quart if not making a whole gallon) of PLAIN yogurt with live culture… no flavor… no fruit… Stonyfield Farms Organic plain yogurt OR Traders Point Creamery plain yogurt are both excellent and are sold by Marsh and other large chain stores for $5 quart. 

I used an Igloo 26-quart cooler that K-Mart sells for about $20.

After the large pan of water is boiling, dip all the jars/lids in for several seconds to sterilize everything.

Pour the large pan of boiling water into the cooler and into two quart jars. Put the lids on the jars loosely. Close the cooler’s lid with the two jars filled and the rest of the boiling water in the bottom of the cooler.

Set the cooler aside to heat up and proceed to make the yogurt: 

After cooling the large pan, use it again to heat one gallon of milk to 185 degrees (I used Anne's meat thermometer because I couldn't find a "candy" thermometer in two stores). Place the hot milk pan in a sink filled with ice water and let it cool to 115 degrees (took about five minutes with ice on outside of pan). Stir in one cup of plain yogurt into the 115* F milk. After mixing well, pour the milk into the four sterilized one-quart glass jars or two half-gallon jars and put on the lids (not tight). 

Go back to the cooler, set the two quarts of hot water aside for a moment and empty the hot water out of the bottom of the cooler. Set the jars of warm milk/yogurt mix into the cooler with the two jars of boiling water and close the lid. 
After ten to twelve hours, take out the bottles of milk (finished yogurt) and put them in the refrigerator to cool.

That’s it: 
For the cost of a gallon of milk, you have four quarts of yogurt that are identical to the cup of expensive plain yogurt that you bought. Save a cup of your new yogurt to make another gallon when this one is gone. 

KOMBUCHA Making Kombucha (one gallon)

You will need:
One scoby (symbiotic culture of bacteria and yeast)
One cup of starter (already made kombucha)
One gallon of boiling water
Seven Black tea teabags
Two cups of sugar

Bring one gallon of water to a boil and then turn it off.
Add two cups of sugar and seven black tea teabags to the very hot water.
Let the hot water with sugar and tea bags sit until the water cools.
Remove the tea bags from the cooled water.

Have the scoby and a cup of starter in the bottom of a very-wide-mouth glass container. The opening of the container should be wider than the depth of the liquid in it. The process needs the surface area for air/breathing.
Pour the cooled water into the glass container with the scoby and one cup of starter. 
Cover the glass container with a cloth, not a glass lid; the mixture has to breathe. 


After seven days remove the new (baby) scoby from the top of the old one (mother). Last week’s scoby (the mother) can be give to somebody else as a starter or thrown away. Note: If a new scoby (baby) looks underdeveloped, keep old (mother) and new (baby) together for another week before you separate them.
Strain your fresh kombucha into a glass container(s) and refrigerate. Use one cup of the fresh kombucha (starter) and the baby scoby (to be a new mother) to make a new batch for next week.


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## Michael Bush

I'm pretty sure the naturally done stuff in the Middle East and in Bulgaria are a lot more mixed up. Here's a likely list:

Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus
Lactobacillus Acidophilus
Lactobacillus Casei
Lactobacillus johnsonii
Lactobacillus rhamnosus
Lactobacillus paracasei
Lactobacillus fermentum
Lactobacillus plantarum
Lactobacillus plantarum
Lactobacillus rhamnosus
Bifidobacterium longum
Bifidobacterium animalis ssp. lactis Bb-12
Streptococcus thermophilus


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## Acebird

NW IN Beekeeper said:


> Don't pretend to know, it only hurts the beekeeping community and doesn't help your respect.


Wow! Wow! You said that to Michael Bush?

It hasn't shaken my respect ... All I can say is Wow!

We live in an era of germaphobes who are dead set on sterilizing everything and in so doing have weakened their immune system to a point where they get sick easily. I admit, I don't know what introducing probiotics would do for a colony of bees. I think it is helpful for me but I am not sure it is the right thing to do for the colony. I do like the idea of adding healthy bees and bread to the hive as a way of introducing probiotics rather than a massive dose. I certainly wouldn't take the whole bottle of probiotic pills in one day for myself. I think dosage matters greatly.


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## Hoosier

Acebird said:


> Wow! Wow! You said that to Michael Bush?
> 
> It hasn't shaken my respect ... All I can say is Wow!
> 
> We live in an era of germaphobes who are dead set on sterilizing everything and in so doing have weakened their immune system to a point where they get sick easily. I admit, I don't know what introducing probiotics would do for a colony of bees. I think it is helpful for me but I am not sure it is the right thing to do for the colony. I do like the idea of adding healthy bees and bread to the hive as a way of introducing probiotics rather than a massive dose. I certainly wouldn't take the whole bottle of probiotic pills in one day for myself. I think dosage matters greatly.


If it were I, I would think twice before giving probiotics to bees, but if I were going to, I'd give them *whey* from kefir and mix the whey with sugar. Don't ask me why, 'cause I don't know WHY since I don't know if bees need probiotics, let alone probiotics that humans need.


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## thenance007

Well, I tried it and it didn't kill them, and it may have helped them. Noticed some brown splashes on the hive that might have been nosema. So I added about 1/4 capsule of Solaray Multidophilus 12 to a gallon of 1.5/1 syrup (with my usual chamomile/sage tea and sea salt). It has 20 billion micro organisms from 12 strains: b. lactis, b. bifidum, b. infantis, b. longum, l. acidophilud, l. brevis, l. bulgaricus, l. paracasei, l. planatarum, l. rhamnosus, l. salivarius, and streptococcus thermophilus. 

I did it twice, about 4 weeks ago and again about a week ago. I based it on this info:
http://www.habeetat.eu/Images/Evans%20&%20Lopez%20bacterial%20probiotics%20induce%20an%20immune%20respinse%20in%20the%20honey%20bee.pdf

"We feel the evidence presented here also supports the potential of using nonpathogenic bacteria as probiotic diet additives to spur the immune responses of bees. First instars showed a substantial increase in abaecin transcript levels beginning 12 h after exposure to food containing the probiotic mix relative to controls. This increase reached a 20-fold difference after 48 h of feeding, whenlarvae were inthe third instar, indicating that the response can be maintained for the
long term. Although caution should be taken in an yÞeld assays, the history of known bee pathologies suggests that these bacteria pose little risk for honey bee (or human) health and that they are good candidates as Þeld treatments for bee colonies. The probiotic bacterial spores used are readily available as veterinary and human dietary supplements, suggesting that it would be relatively easy to generate a supply of probiotic treatments for bees."

and:

Two probiotics, Biogen-N and Trilac, were used as supplements to pollen substitute in feeding honey bees, Apis mellifera. The probiotics were given either throughout the entire 14-day experiment or only for 2 days, just after bee emergence. The midgut of worker bees was colonized by bacteria present in probiotics, including Lactobacillus spp., Pediococcus acidilactici, Bifidobacterium bifidum and Enterococcus faecium. Advantages of probiotic supplementation include better bee survival and higher dry mass and crude fat level in comparison with bees fed with pollen substitute only." 

Although I can't find it now, I read another study that showed a very significant increase in Spring brood.

My bees seem to be healthy and doing fine, and there have been no more signs of nosema. I'm hoping that I've treated the winter bee larvae and that this will help them winter better.


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## Solomon Parker

In my humble view, from all that I've read and presentations that I've heard, a colony has and cultivates all the biology that it needs provided the beekeeper doesn't come in and indiscriminately kill the native microbes with antibiotics or in this case, offset the natural balance with microbes from the outside.

In the Treatment-Free Forum, we strive to learn how to keep bees without treatments whatsoever and not to find newer softer more 'natural' treatments. This whole thread is missing the point.


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## Barry

Acebird said:


> I do like the idea of adding healthy bees and bread to the hive


Bread? Did I miss what this is all about?


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## Acebird

Michael Bush said:


> If you feed honey (correct pH etc.) and you don't use essential oils (anti microbial) or organic acids (dramatic shift in pH which kills most all microbes) or antibiotics (Fumidil will kill the fungi and Tylosin and TM will kill the bacteria) then you will get the things that should be living in a bee hive and in the bee gut and in the bee bread. The best way to innoculate a hive that is not doing well is to put a frame of bee bread and a frame of bees from a hive that is doing well. This should innoculate the hive that is not with the correct microbes.


Here it is Barry post #31. Bee bread.


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## WLC

Well, I do use probiotics and kefir often enough (on myself). But, it isn't cheap.

While you could call using probiotics environmentally responsible, I'm not sure that it's sustainable since you can't say which strains that you do put in your hives will persist.

It's a different kind of treadmill. It could get expensive too.


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## Barry

Acebird said:


> Bee bread.


Oh, _bee_ bread! There's talk of garlic, vinegar, I figured now it was bread's turn. Whole wheat of course.
Gerber anyone?
http://www.gerber.com/AllStages/products/formula/gerber_good_start_protect_plus_formula_powder.aspx

"IMMUNIPROTECT™ probiotic—B. lactis and nutrition to help strengthen a healthy immune system"


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## Colleen O.

While I agree that letting the bees set up the natural biological balance in the hive and trying to avoid disrupting it is best, I wonder if spritzing with a bit of probiotic (like kefir whey or something similar) mixed into the water when you install a new package of bees would be beneficial. Could it possibly give the weakened by stress bees a bit of a jump start towards building the right hive balance?


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## Hoosier

My wife and I make our own kefir, and for several years we have each drank a large glass every day. There's no way that I would pay close to $100 for a package of bees and introduce the 42 various probiotics (bacterias and yeasts) in kefir to them. To actually do a safe scientific study would cost a lot of money. 
It's great for humans though, but we are mammals that start life with milk; kefir is a product made with milk. 
If anyone's interested in drink kefir, see: KEFIR http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/Makekefir.html (many pages of information)
Watch all ten of this guy's presentations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MELveoRjK8M


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