# Fast way to grow one nuc to 40 hives



## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Slow down grasshopper, stretching a nuc to 40 healthy in a season will be difficult, at best. Purchase more, or find someone who can set up an apiary, on the land, & learn how to keep healthy bees before you dive in & hurt yourself


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

Some of the rate limiting division is it takes a month to make a queen. Also 3 frames would be the minimum split size. So, a split in April will have a laying queen in May, it then would need to grow, as well as be fed at least a month. The hive you split off in April, MIGHT be able to be split in May, assuming so and done. At the first of June you could have 3 hives. It it also possible that the first split and original hive could be split. That will give you 5 hives at July 1. Then you can get about 3 maybe 4 cycles of brood before winter. This is all dependant on feeding continuously and queens properly mating. Suggestion beyond that buy some bees, queens, or catch some swarms. It also means no honey crop


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Go and purchase 15 nucs with your first year's projected tax savings, and turn those into 40 hives through the year. Plan on feeding a lot of sugar syrup to get comb drawn and some pollen patties to keep brooding going more productively. You might decide to keep a few this year to learn more about keeping bees, and plan for the full increase next year when you'll have more resources and knowledge to work with from the start.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

figure it costs about 300 per hive without the cost of bees so at 40 hives you are looking at around 12 grand. Spending 12 to save 2 makes sense to me.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Make your own tops and bottoms, buy the frames/boxes from mann lake at their bulk catalog rate, and a hive costs about $120


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Dave1958 said:


> Some of the rate limiting division is it takes a month to make a queen. Also 3 frames would be the minimum split size. So, a split in April will have a laying queen in May, it then would need to grow, as well as be fed at least a month. The hive you split off in April, MIGHT be able to be split in May, assuming so and done. At the first of June you could have 3 hives. It it also possible that the first split and original hive could be split. That will give you 5 hives at July 1. Then you can get about 3 maybe 4 cycles of brood before winter. This is all dependant on feeding continuously and queens properly mating. Suggestion beyond that buy some bees, queens, or catch some swarms. It also means no honey crop


If you don't let your nucs get big, you can pull one frame from multiple nucs and squeeze in a few more splits, but you are correct a 1:40 ratio simply doesn't seem feasable. I have went from 2 to 8 from splits in IL last yr and the season is longer in TX so I would say he could probably do 2 to 10 in one season mating his own queens, or 2 to 12 if he was purchasing queens.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

cheryl1 said:


> Make your own tops and bottoms, buy the frames/boxes from mann lake at their bulk catalog rate, and a hive costs about $120


yes, that was based off buying everything new and already assembled, because lets face it, who has time to build that much equipment while trying to increase your apiary size by a factor of 40 lol. :lpf:


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

cheryl1 said:


> Make your own tops and bottoms, buy the frames/boxes from mann lake at their bulk catalog rate, and a hive costs about $120


Even if the wood, nails and time were free the cost from Mann Lake at $120 times 39 (since he has one hive) is still a cost of $4,680.00.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

etbees said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have 40 acres in Panola County Texas and the taxes are $2,200 per year with no bees but only about $20 per year if I get bees on the land.
> I need to have 1 hive per acre so I need to get up to 40 hives.


So get yourself 40 hives. Or does the Law say they have to have bees in them?

"1. How long before I can split this nuc into 2, 3 or 4 hives?" Next Spring.
"2. When I have those nucs/hives established how long will it be before I can split them?" The next Spring.
"3. Can I squeeze in 3/4 splits between March - August in order to give the hives enough time to build enough honey to overwinter properly?" No

"With 40 hives I'd rather go commercial into pollination instead of honey production. Any insight into that? Say I had 10 to 20 four-way pallets of 10 deep double hives." 10 deep double hives? What are you talking about?


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Gee making up 40 hives is so cheap and easy why didn't I think of that?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

etbees, you might want to start by keeping what you have alive and strong through one Winter. You are asking questions beyond your abilities. Even if anyone could tell you everything you wish to know.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Fast way to grow one nuc to 40 hives?Buy them.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Fast way to grow one nuc to 40 hives?Buy them.


this^! If you need 40 hives by next spring when it's time to do this yrs taxes, buy 60 hives this yr


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The savings over the years will outpace the expenses.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If you need to "get hives onto the land." Then find a beekeeper to use it as an outyard. 

Turning one nuc into 40 overwinterable hives in one season I'm pretty sure is not mathematically possible. You might be able to produce enough queens, but you would also need at least 200 frames of drawn comb even if they were all only 5 frame nucs.

You would also need to be one heck of a beekeeper. Are you?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

David LaFerney said:


> You would also need to be [ ... ] a beekeeper. Are you?


Not just "one heck of".


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

Referencing another thread... He'd have to be a Master.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

etbees said:


> How long before I can split this nuc into 2, 3 or 4 hives?


Welcome. Ordinarily, hive beetles are not a big issue. But, in your location, when you try to split too aggressively with very small nucleus hives they will be a problem. You have three resources: effort, money, and the calendar. The more of one you invest, the less of the other two you will need. This is not going to happen overnight unless you invest quite a bit. I hope you are successful.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

If this gig was so darn easy everybody would be doing it. Oh ya.......

And now for some advice I have never given before. Just pay the taxes. If you dont love bees those 40 hives are going to cost you 2500 bucks worth of ant...acid every year. What was that old saying about getting stung from both sides at once?


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## mrflegel (Mar 23, 2014)

What I would do is make the boxes. Make divisions that could be made from the nuk that would survive the winter. Set up feeders in the empty boxes that are left. Bees coming in to feed look just like an active hive. May have some swarms move in to be close to the food.
No tax collector that I have ever seen is ambitious enough to tell the difference. 
Best of luck.
Mike


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Bad idea about setting up a fake hive.
Do it right for once for many years to come.
Filling 40 fake hives is a tedious job on top of running other tasks.
Need to test out 10 hives this season to see if they can withstand the
mites first. If you don't plant for them then be prepare to buy lots of
sugar and patty subs to get them through the yearly summer dearth.


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## SouthTexasJohn (Mar 16, 2015)

ET, check the exemption laws again. I believe in Texas, it is between 5 acres and 20 acres. You say that you have 40. Hmmmmm.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

I would say in TX you could split one nuc into five April 1 and buy four queens. As these are going on foundation they need a lot of feed. All the 50% sugar water they will take, probably all the way to fall. You will likely loose one somehow so July 1 you will have four splitable nucs.

July 1 split those four into 12 or maybe 14 and add purchased queens. Again feed all the sugar they will take. I do not know the pollen situation in TX but suspect you need to feed pollen sub. If you do hive beetles will probably cause a lot of problems and you will need to watch those splits like a hawk and deal with beetles somehow. Some may end up queenless and you need to recognize this fast and buy more queens. A couple will likely fail.

By fall expect to have fed over 500 pounds of sugar. Probably more like 1000. And end up if you are lucky with 12 strong enough to winter. So maybe $300 or $400 for sugar plus at least 15 purchased queens by fall at $375 plus wooden ware and foundation costs and $150 for mite treatment and you are in good shape to get to 40 in 2017 if you are good at bee keeping. If you are not so good at bee keeping you could end up with one or two nucs April 1 2017.

Or an alternative would be to purchase 20 packages of bees plus equipment and sugar and etc April 1 and split those packages July 1 and add purchased queens and if you are good at bee keeping and lucky you might end up with 40 colonies April 1, 2017. That is much safer than splitting nucs in hive beetle country.

Better bet is to find a bee keeper who wants another out yard and is willing to set up 40 hives in one yard. That only works if you have forage that would support 40 hives. Forty acres is not going to come close to making it so what is around your property?

Best bet is pay the taxes.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I think the best first step would be to take half of the projected savings over 30 years ($30,000) and buy 40 Flow Hives.

I could see (maybe) trying to keep a few hives for some sort of tax benefit. But trying to keep 40 of them to save $2,000 a year...? I can't imagine the numbers cranking out well in your favor.

It kind of reminds me of when I first got out of college. Was paying like $450 a month + utilities for a pretty nice one bedroom apartment. I found a joint for half that price and thought "Oh the savings I'll have!" After living their for six months I cranked out the "savings" and found that I saved (and I am not making this up) $6 a month over a 6 month period... once considering extra gas for a longer drive to work, inefficient heating system (electric), etc. And the place was a roach infested dump. I kept cans of vegetables sitting in/over all of my drains because I saw so many roaches coming in/out of the drains.

I should have more thoroughly crunched the numbers before moving. You should more thoroughly crunch the numbers before buying 40 beehives. The fastest way would certainly be to buy 40 packages, though.


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## jakec (May 26, 2015)

just get 39 more boxes and put 1 drone and 1 queen in each box. they'll mate and start a nice colony in each box.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

How to get 40 hives in one year without buying 40 packages?

buy 20 packages and split them in half in july.

buy 20 more queens.

Expect to feed the first packages a gallon a week of syrup. ~240 gal

Expect to feed all 40 a gallon a week till Nov. ~480 gal

If the link i found is accurate expect to pay something like $800 for a 275gal tote of HFCS. weight ~3000lbs total - *$2400*
white sugar -home made 1:1 . at a rate of ~$.5/lb 100 gal of 1:1 takes ~725lbs sugar = $362 - total ~$2600

Frame feeders ~*$300*

My quick check of Man lake (as that was listed before) shows 
40 (complete single deep) hives at ~85 each = *$3400*
40 additional singe deep boxes (double deep hives into winter) = $35 x40 = *$1400*

20 packages @120 each = *$2400*
20 addtional queens in july @20 = *400*


The above plan shows $10,000 outlay to make happen. IMHO it is not possible to put into service 40 hives in a year (and expect them to make it to the next year) without at least a 10K investment.

The above does not address several additional key issues such as time to assemble woodenware, equipment to handle HFCS/ equipment to make bulk 1:1 in the field.

Other costs that will add up. Cost to treat for varroa. 
As you are in TX, Cost to treat SHB.

Other notes

Losses, I would expect 10-25% losses any given year. In the past 8 years ive been keeping bees, Ive seen people report as high as 50% loss on 50-100 hives total.

you have the choice of trying to make splits out of the remaining, or purchase new each year. You could also shoot for 50 hives and do splits off healthy hives each year. (being able to absorb 20% loss each year and still maintain 40 hives - 10 hives ~2500)

If you were able to reduce your tax bill by $2000 a year, I expect a payoff of the 40-50 hives you placed in ~7 years. (ah yes but honey... ah yes but equipment cost to process 40-50 hives is a net wash for that same period of time IMHO)


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## Jecsd1 (May 20, 2014)

SouthTexasJohn said:


> ET, check the exemption laws again. I believe in Texas, it is between 5 acres and 20 acres. You say that you have 40. Hmmmmm.


Exactly right. Current TX law allows bees as a 1.d.1 Ag Exemption ONLY on parcels of 5-20 acres. Unless the property is subdivided you will only be able to claim the bees as a legitimate exemption on 20 of the 40 acres.


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## madasafish (Aug 24, 2010)

Clint Eastwood had a question which answers this thread:
"Are you felling lucky?"

Because to go from a nucleus to 10 hives in a season (not 40) requires luck in weather, luck in forage and luck in beekeeping.

Chances of each? 20% if starting from scratch . So probability of success = 20% cubed..... which is a very small number.

And because you had to ask the question , no chance - as if you knew anything about beekeeping you would know that - to put it brutally but honestly - you have not the skills to do it.

And that is for 10 hives let alone 40..

As for overwintering them successfully first time round , you will lose a fair %...anything between 20 to 100% depending on the winter..


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

>figure it costs about 300 per hive without the cost of bees so at 40 hives you are looking at around 12 grand. Spending 12 to save 2 makes sense to me

About $50 on my side of the river. 
$300? someone is robbing you big time.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

At least set this up as a sole proprietorship so you can write your huge upcoming financial loss off of your income taxes


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

jcolon said:


> >figure it costs about 300 per hive without the cost of bees so at 40 hives you are looking at around 12 grand. Spending 12 to save 2 makes sense to me
> 
> About $50 on my side of the river.
> $300? someone is robbing you big time.


My math worked out to be $250/hive and I feel thats not including many additional expenses you would incure before the year is over.

Please let me know were i can buy a complete double deep 10 frame hive with foundation for $50.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Like any hobby, you can spend as much as you want. 
I spend 5 dollars for each top/bottom. About 20 for each med super with frames.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

etbees said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have 40 acres in Panola County Texas and the taxes are $2,200 per year with no bees but only about $20 per year if I get bees on the land.
> I need to have 1 hive per acre so I need to get up to 40 hives.
> ...


Texas State law limits AG exemptions for bees to 20 acres. 
Texas Counties set density requirements (I am unaware of any that have a density above 16 hives for 20 acres). 
You are also required to engage in the activity 5 out of 7 years so if there is no exemption in place, you'll likely need to keep bees for 5 years BEFORE you get the tax break.

Dou you have anything blooming in abundance in July and August? Generally we grow a nuc big enough to over winter the first year and split the following year.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I figure it's $80 to $90 for a double deep, Mann Lake pricing, just for the woodenware, unassembled, unpainted.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

There's a famous quote in the racing world... "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?" 
Substitute "grow" for "go", and that's beekeeping.

'Sounds like you have a few years, and maybe a "density exemption" to overcome, based on CR's input.


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## johnbeejohn (Jun 30, 2013)

while i like post #21 idea best bet is pay a local beekeeper to keep like 500$ to maintain 40 hives there if you had the law correct


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## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

johnbeejohn said:


> while i like post #21 idea best bet is pay a local beekeeper to keep like 500$ to maintain 40 hives there if you had the law correct


This or get a beekeeper to keep there free. There are some people who need an additional yard.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JRG13 said:


> I figure it's $80 to $90 for a double deep, Mann Lake pricing, just for the woodenware, unassembled, unpainted.


Palletized singles coming out of the almonds $150.00 each.


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## Joe Hillmann (Apr 27, 2015)

I am trying to do something similar. Right now I have for sure one hive and maybe three and want to in the next two years get up to about 50 hives (partially for tax reasons).

I am planning to buy 2 nuc's this spring, so I will be starting with 5 hives. I hope I can make two splits from each hive so by fall I will have 15. Chances are some won't make it or will be too small so I may have to combine some in the late summer. I hope to have 10 hives the next spring. Then I hope to be able to split them 2 times as well which will get me up to thirty. The next by the end of next summer. Then the year after that I should be able to get up to around 50 hives & nucs. 

In all this I plan to have to feed most of them all summer. (I plan to set aside one hive to make some honey for myself). But all of this is going to take a huge amount of woodenware which I am building myself(I couldn't afford to grow at that rate if I was buying it).

I want to point out that I enjoy beekeeping and I already had plans to get up to 40 hives over the next few years because I enjoy it and feel I can make some money at it (During the summer I already set up at 2-4 farmers markets a week so I figure it should be easy enough to bring honey along with what I already sell) The reduced taxes and trying to get up to fifty hives instead of forty just recently came up after I already had planned to get more seriously involved in beekeeping. If I didn't like bees and didn't have a way to get rid of the honey I would never consider it just for lower taxes.



Just to give you an idea of how long it takes to split a hive. I made a split with 4 medium frames on July 27 and let them create their own queen I fed them sugar syrup for all but two weeks until it got too cold for them to take it some time in October (The queen quit laying some time between September, 22 and October, 5) In those two - three months the hive built up enough to make it through winter(so far). 

You are much farther south, have a longer summer and a much more mild winter so you could go later with your splits and later still if you are buying your queens.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Palletized singles coming out of the almonds $150.00 each.


That'll get you 40 fast - and an education you can't get on the internet...


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

jcolon said:


> >figure it costs about 300 per hive without the cost of bees so at 40 hives you are looking at around 12 grand. Spending 12 to save 2 makes sense to me
> 
> About $50 on my side of the river.
> $300? someone is robbing you big time.


Please share where I can get complete hive bodies for $50.00. I need some for that price.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> etbees, you might want to start by keeping what you have alive and strong through one Winter. You are asking questions beyond your abilities. Even if anyone could tell you everything you wish to know.


Really take this advice to heart because it's good advice. I applaud your ambition and if you move forward trying to do what you're asking about I wish you every bit of success, however; these types of threads pop up every year/every few months with brand new beekeepers who've been bitten by the beekeeping bug and want to do exactly what you're talking about. I myself have probably started threads exactly like this one and asked the exact same questions and it's not easy. I've floundered between ~40 colonies and as low as 5 colonies over the course of the last couple of years and contrary to popular belief the school of hard knocks isn't cheap.

I can't attest to your individual situation but I can tell you what I have learned/gone through over the last few years. You need to learn to rear your own queens if you want to pursue your goals. Yeah you can buy queens but being able to make your own quality queens makes expanding like you're talking a really trivial issue. The first year I learned how to graft I think I had 20-30 colonies and I quickly ran into the problem of not having enough equipment when I turned around and made 40-50 nucs with laying queens in the span of a few weeks. Expanding is the easy part. 

Building equipment consumes the majority of my time and I buy all of my lumber in bulk bunks of 1x10 rough cut from a lumber mill about 2 hours away. I think last time I sat down and figured it out it was costing me less than 2.50 per deep hive body in material. Time is a whole other issue. If you have a full time job (40 hours a week) and only have weekends to build equipment plus beekeeping this is going to be nearly impossible to do this summer. I've set myself up for failure _every-single-year _by not having equipment built and ready to go when the bees fly. If you turn around and have 40 queens mated and laying and need to put them in nucs that aren't built yet you're going to be spending some long frustrating nights building equipment.

You've got queens mated, laying, you've got your nucs built and everything is going great but you haven't taken them through a winter yet. Well buckup, 95% loss isn't that bad is it? I mean 95% loss with 40 colonies means you've still got 2 next spring to work off of. Yeah, that sounds doom and gloom and worse case scenario but it happened to me a couple of years ago. Nothing crazy out of the ordinary, my hives were prepared but I had never experienced a winter like we had here that year and it was BRUTAL. I learned a lot and changed my management style and I lost less than 5% this last winter but it was a learning experience I had to pay for.

People are going to continue responding telling you the dollars and cents behind it, how you're going to have to feed, how you're going to have to manage etc... etc... None of those things do you any good if they don't play into how you specifically intend to manage your bees and frankly you don't even know how you're going to manage your bees because you haven't done it yet. I would highly recommend trying to acquire 10 hives and work on that for the first year, if year 2 rolls around and you get all 10 through winter and are still wanting to expand you'll have the resources and a better grip on what you're doing to try it.

Best of luck!

**edit**

Just as an after thought to this. Find a commercial guy you can go out with and work a yard that has 40 hives in it. Going out on the weekend and popping open your one hive and digging around in it is a different experience then hustling through a yard with 40 colonies that you're going to quickly evaluate and move onto the next yard. One hive open that's gentle is a different experience than 40 hives that have been worked and are in a very unhappy mood. Ever had to go through and pull queen cells then make up nucs when it's pouring down rain? Nature's time table won't wait for you because it's inconvenient. You'll show up a day late and forty cells short when one of those queens hatched early and decided to lay waste to all of her potential competitors and all of your hard work. As a test comparison and because it's kind of a good eye opener. Time yourself next time you're going to inspect your one colony. From the time you pop the lid until the time you put it back on. 5 minutes? 10 minutes? 15minutes? At 5 minutes a hive it's going to take you 3 hours to go through 40 colonies, at 15 minutes a colony it's going to take you 10 hours to go through 40. I had a commercial beek on here tell me an average day he can typically go through a hive and get all the information he needs to know in about a minute and 30 seconds. Would you be able to go through a colony that fast and accurately diagnose any disease or pest issues? Are you able to diagnose any disease and pest issues right now? If not you're setting yourself up for failure in my opinion. One thing that will get beat into your head reading these forums is mites, mites, mites, mites. That's all anybody seems to mention anymore is mites. There's a plethora of other diseases and pests out there all with their own nuances and symptoms and you need to be able to diagnose and mitigate them accordingly. (Sorry this turned into such a long rant) /r


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Moon, the OPer doesn't want to keep bees, he wants to get a break on his property taxes. People always looking for the easy buck.


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## etbees (Feb 28, 2016)

All,

Thank you for your comments.

1. I have ~47 acres total but it is actually 3 deeds (20.XX acres, 20.XX acres and 6.XX acres) the 20 acre parcels have 1 acre cut out for homestead so only 19.XX is eligible for Texas AG exemption.

2. I wasn't expecting to get to 40 nucs before Memorial Day. I was only curious how fast I could get there because I was talking with a master beek that said they can split one nuc into 3 or even 4 at times. So that piqued my interest.

3. I grow pine trees from seedlings which take 20+ years before they're ready for sawtimber so I'm used to waiting.


The expense of the trees I understand. If it takes me $5,000 and two years to get to 40 nucs. Over a 10 year span I'd be ahead at least $8k by having the bees. Not to mention all the great honey I'll be able to give away at Christmas.

But, one of the biggest benefits is what I'll be able to give back to the world. Hopefully the bees that I raise will benefit farmers near me.


I appreciate all the information and I'll go back to studying more.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Moon, the OPer doesn't want to keep bees, he wants to get a break on his property taxes. People always looking for the easy buck.


Mark: Ahh, my mistake. I must not have fully read the OP.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That's okay, Moon. I'm just a cynic sometimes. No one's fault but my own.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

If only the bees never died and there wasn't a learning curve for most while figuring out how to keep them alive. There is probably much much more to the equation that you're overlooking. How positive are you that this subsidy will be around in five years?


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## cavscout (Apr 21, 2015)

If your looking for AG credits make your property available to someone's hives. The hives do not have to be yours. You will need to show five years of working the hives to the tax office and in the mean time start your own hives.


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## wfournier (Apr 23, 2013)

etbees said:


> All,
> 
> Thank you for your comments.
> 
> ...


I think your post here helps people know where you are coming from and that IMO you can look at this realistically. 40 hives is a serious number of hives and if managed properly will provide you with a significant amount of honey. If you average 50lbs a hive (a realistic number IMO but I'm not familiar with TX yields) that mean 2000 lbs a year, at $5 a pound that's another $10K a year ($5 might be high for wholesale or low for retail). If you have the time IMO it sounds like a good idea, getting there in a year probably isn't but if you set interim goals to learn and spread the cost out I think it is manageable.


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## NewBeeLady (May 20, 2014)

If I were you I would look into leasing out the land for hunting season.. or something where you can get $$ to pay the taxes. I have 54 acres in SC I lease for hay production, so I get the rent money, and only pay $30.00 in taxes since it is regarded as agricultural land. It's a win win. 

Instead of getting bees, plant something.. anything. 

Just my 2 cents.
New Bee Lady


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## cavscout (Apr 21, 2015)

If am correct you can only use bees for a total of 20 acres for AG credit.


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## NSBee (Dec 20, 2014)

here is my plan for increase this year . 
2 nucs arrive mid may manage them so they don't swarm , last week in june pull 1 frame with eggs and young larvae from one and a frame with capped brood from the other . notch the frame with eggs and 1 - 3 day larvae using the ots method . put both frames of brood and bees along with a frame of nectar and a pollen patty into a nuc box , come back in a few days to see if they have started queen cells in where i notched the frame . 
assuming I have gotten some queen cells , come back when the cells are capped . 
divide op the brood in the 2 original nucs into 2 frame nucs giving each nuc a queen cell and leaving a queen cell in the 3rd notched nuc . leave the original 2 queens in the original location with drawn comb to build up again . 
I am hoping each nuc will have 6 frames or so of brood that I can use to split into 3 nucs each , so I should have 9 nucs in mid july with laying queens which I can manage and help build up with sugar syrup to make it through the winter . 
if I can get 6 of 9 hives through the winter I will have bees in april and early may I can split , I can then order in some spring queens for these splits and do the whole thing over again which should leave me with 40 to 50 nuc hives going into the winter next winter .


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Moon, the OPer doesn't want to keep bees, he wants to get a break on his property taxes. People always looking for the easy buck.


In Washington you dont need 40 hives you just need to make 100 per acre in revenue. You can do that with 2 hives if you do it right. You also typically have to been running the property as a farm for 3 years before they change the designation. So he has time to get there I am sure. I would learn with a nuc or two for the 2 years then expand you can get to 40 with a dozen packages.



fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> Slow down grasshopper, stretching a nuc to 40 healthy in a season will be difficult, at best. Purchase more, or find someone who can set up an apiary, on the land, & learn how to keep healthy bees before you dive in & hurt yourself


Or just say that they are yours when it is just someone else looking for an outyard.


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## bean tree homestead (Nov 18, 2013)

I for one want to see you run a hundred miles a hour at your goal and see what the out come is.. even if it is for selfish reasons.opcorn:


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

My method for growing queen cells is to remove the queen and a frame of brood c/w bees to a NUC box. Shake in bees from another frame. Ensure they a have honey and stored pollen. Place this NUC in a new location.

Leave all the rest of the resources in the cell builder NUC at the original location. It will have the foragers bringing in pollen and nectar and lots of nurse bees to raise the best queens. IMHO, a newly made up queenless NUC is not as well equipped to raise multiple good queens. Notch some cells on either side of two frames. Once you get queens cells, select two of the best cells per frame and purge the other cells. 

Once the queen cells are capped, then divide the brood and bees among the three NUCs. Recognize that the foragers will mostly return to the original NUC location unless you can move the split NUCs greater than two miles away. If you can't do this, place some branches at the entrances or boards to get bees to reorient to new locations in same yard.

I'd be concerned getting these small NUCs built up to have sufficent population and honey stores to be alive in the spring.


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## etbees (Feb 28, 2016)

Everyone,

Thanks again for all the comments.

1. Someone said I wasn't interested in "keeping bees" and "only trying to save a quick buck". This couldn't be further from the truth. After running some quick math, my goals/timeline have been extended (but not all the way changed).

2. I won't lease the land for hunting because I hunt myself and have a few bucks on my land as it is the "sanctuary" in my area as there are hunters all around me but no one ever comes on my property or the 40 acres north or south of me.

3. Ag exemption is good for 20 acres per deed. I have a total of 5 deeds for these 40 acres so 3 of the 5 deeds I'm seeking Ag exemption on. 

4. The math that I've done is that I have 5 frames now.
By April 1st (hopefully) I should be able to split those into 3 separate hives.
By May 1st I should have six/seven full frames and be looking to put another Deep on top.
By June 1st that top Deep should be getting full and I should be getting ready for a super.
At the latest July 15 put a super on.
By August 15 another super and be ready for winter.

So, by end of August I should have three complete hives (2 Deeps, 2 Supers) and hopefully this time next year I will have AT LEAST two thriving hives full of honey to start.

Of course, this is my overly optimistic plan and only Nature will let you do what She wants you to do.


Lastly, besides the tax write off my biggest goal out of all of this is to be able to send/give people some of my honey that I helped raise (with the bees doing all the work of course). I grow my own mint for mint tea so it'll be nice to have grown the mint and the honey on my own.

More of a 'novelty' gift than anything.

Thoughts???

ET


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Your math is way off, but you'll learn. Are you buying additional queens for these splits as well?


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## Tom06- (May 11, 2013)

Why not just pay a bee keeper $ 500 to keep bees on your property?


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## etbees (Feb 28, 2016)

Tom06- said:


> Why not just pay a bee keeper $ 500 to keep bees on your property?


Bee-cause...

"Lastly, besides the tax write off my biggest goal out of all of this is to be able to send/give people some of *my* honey that I helped raise (with the bees doing all the work of course). I grow my own mint for mint tea so it'll be nice to have grown the mint and the honey on my own.

More of a 'novelty' gift than anything."


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## etbees (Feb 28, 2016)

JRG13 said:


> Your math is way off, but you'll learn. Are you buying additional queens for these splits as well?


So I can't split the my one 10 frame hive in 3 hives?

Not buying queens. I consulted a master beek and they said I shouldn't have to. Of course, I got a lot of "we'll see..." in there too.

I'm only doing ONE split this year and that will happen around April 5th.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It will take a split 4-5 weeks to get a laying queen if they have to rear their own, so limited hive growth will occur in this time, maybe even a reduction will occur. It will then take 21 days for any new brood to hatch on top of that....


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

etbees said:


> So I can't split the my one 10 frame hive in 3 hives?


no (well if you expect any of them to survive -no)

Figure the min number of bees required to have a successful walk away split is 2 frames of brood covered in nurse bees. your hive just wont have the population or the brood to do a 3 way split.

not placeing a queen in the hive with low brood and low population is a recipe for abandonment.

figure 2 months after a walk away split before you have new flyers if you dont place a mated queen in the fresh split.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Yep, he belongs here. Typical self-sufficient, grow my own trees, grow my own honey guy.

I have 130 acres with about 50 of it planted to black walnut. I'm looking at 45 years before they are harvestable. Meantime, I get to eat the walnuts!


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

etbees said:


> Bee-cause...
> 
> "Lastly, besides the tax write off my biggest goal out of all of this is to be able to send/give people some of *my* honey that I helped raise (with the bees doing all the work of course). I grow my own mint for mint tea so it'll be nice to have grown the mint and the honey on my own.
> 
> More of a 'novelty' gift than anything."


Besides the fact that you are using bee keeping as a loophole to save tax money. When it was designed to help beekeepers not make people beekeepers to get the tax credit. It kind of rubs in the face of spirit of the exemption. That said the honey on your property with someone elses hive could be your honey. Let him put the hives there so you can scam the state. He should Let you help him so you can learn. Put a few of your own with his if you like and then it will be co-share honey. 

Since you are willing to scam the system why not lie to your friends about it being your honey. who is to know but, us.

Cant you just make a mint farm and get the agg credit for making a mint.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

EastSideBuzz said:


> Cant you just make a mint farm and get the agg credit for making a mint.


If he made or had a mint, he wouldn't need the ag credit. :lookout:


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## rdneck (Aug 3, 2014)

in SC we get a tax break for growing pine trees with a ten acre minimum tract. Does Texas give an ag discount for growing timber or is this a double dip discount?


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## ShrekVa (Jan 13, 2011)

Firstly, I hope you get your hive count to whatever number that will satisfy you. I had bee lust not to long after starting with a couple hives and for a few seasons I went split crazy. Some advice, if you'll take it, would be to buy mated queens, or possibly cells if that's an option. The reason being, in my experience trying to make queens in nucs / small hives didn't work out, they didn't have the population or resources to make good queens. Also in such a hurry I didn't really know what quality the queens I had to start out with were, and "survivor" is not the only qualification you want to go off of. Fortunately I learned some things from all the dozens of nucs and hives that i've killed up to this point, and have scaled down my ambitions a lot. I would've been better off to start out splitting whats ready to split, and making queens off whats exceptional to begin with, ild be a lot further along. Anyways good luck and get some good prolific queens, else wise its hard to split hives that barely keep their population high enough to sustain themselves.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

etbees, do not let some of these cynics deter you. I think they are having fun with your idea.

Also, to the poster who dissed having bees mainly to "scam" the tax credit, the tax credit is most likely there to encourage the activity. They are probably happy to encourage beekeepers to grow, expand, and add to the local honeybee supply. That's not scamming any more than opening an IRA to deduct the income from your taxes is scamming. Tax breaks are there as an incentive, so please. It is not immoral.

It will probably take you a little longer than you think to get up to 40 hives, particularly if they have to be alive. (Do they have to be alive? Can you just stick 40 nuc boxes on your property? HAHA)

It will probably be a little more expensive than you think. It will probably be a little more time consuming to manage them, especially if they are strung out all over the place. 

Personally, I have found it to be a life-consuming addiction but not as negative as, say, gambling, but maybe just as expensive. 

Sure is fun tho. If you have the extra $$ why not try it. Or at least aim for it. IF you're interested, even without the tax incentive. Because it may not actually work to have 40 living hives that you're harvesting and selling honey from. But it would be fun trying.

P.S. - One free source of queens is to ask other beekeepers in your area (if there are any) if you can have ANY queen cells that they don't want. People toss queen cells like they're rubbish. I see $30 flying every time I hear about a queen cell getting "cut out".


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## cavscout (Apr 21, 2015)

I got started because of the AG credits, but I grew up on a farm with bees. Its a great hobby and I love working my hives. For anyone that is new and have plans on 40 plus hives be aware its a great deal of work (if you do what your supposed to do). You have a lot of learning ahead of you, my advice is find a mentor or club and learn as much as possible. Doing splits and having success is no easy accomplishment and there are many details involved. Again my advice is to allow a beekeeper to setup on your property and learn from him/her. You still get the tax advantages. Start off with a few hives and see if this is something you truly want to do. Have fun!


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## Michael H. (Oct 28, 2015)

Why do you need 40 hives to make honey for friends? How many friends do you have? I thought you said you wanted to go into pollination anyway.

I think your maths is way off. There is no way you are going to go from two frames of brood per hive to two full deeps and two supers in four months with no beekeeping experience. It's just not going to happen. (Unless that mint produces a ton of nectar...)

Is this a joke?


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

I believe I read the whole thread. Does the state of Texas say you have to own the bees. Or can you lease it out to a beekeeper and have no expense ???


BEE HAPPY Jim


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## cavscout (Apr 21, 2015)

You can lease it out Jim.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Michael H. said:


> Is this a joke?


Nope. I think it's someone with no actual experience considering getting into it, not understanding how beekeeping actually works.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

D Coates said:


> Nope. I think it's someone with no actual experience considering getting into it, not understanding how beekeeping actually works.


Or its epic quality trolling.

That's why i tried to toss out some basic numbers which would be hard to argue with but it seems to have falllen on deaf ears likely because it's what they don't want to hear.


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## tpope (Mar 1, 2015)

schmism said:


> Or its epic quality trolling.
> 
> That's why i tried to toss out some basic numbers which would be hard to argue with but it seems to have falllen on deaf ears likely because it's what they don't want to hear.


I enjoyed your post. It caused me to give my own plans of growing to that size in several years more careful consideration.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

etbees - in your situation, with a 11-to-1 ratio of taxation, I would *BUY the bees NOW*. Buy 80 ten-frame boxes (suitable for 40 colonies), buy 600 frames. You'll be getting the other 200 frames when you buy 40 nucleus colonies. 

Do the math and see if the tax money you save will more than pay for the bees. The exact price you pay will determine the breakeven payoff time. [(Number of years x Tax savings per year) - total bee expense]=0. After that, it's all money and honey ahead.

You can learn beekeeping in the meantime. You are happily plugged into the right learning place - Beesource. You will need help the first year - get some beekeeper friends, or join a club. If you manage to expand your apiary, you will probably also be able to soon afford a honey room full of cool equipment.

Pollination is not for small time operations. It requires a flatbed truck and a forklift. That usually gets you up around 700 hives before one person is profitable. A full-time job. For now, just learn beekeeping, honey harvesting, maybe some queen rearing. 40 colonies is enough to raise queens on a small, but profitable scale.

If your area is good for pollination, you will make a few bucks renting whatever hives you can fit into a pickup or onto a trailer. If it is better for honey production, focus on that. If it has lots of wildflower, raise queens and nucleus colonies.


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## tpope (Mar 1, 2015)

kilocharlie said:


> etbees - in your situation, with a 11-to-1 ratio of taxation, I would *BUY the bees NOW*. Buy 80 ten-frame boxes (suitable for 40 colonies), buy 600 frames. You'll be getting the other 200 frames when you buy 40 nucleus colonies.
> 
> Do the math and see if the tax money you save will more than pay for the bees. The exact price you pay will determine the breakeven payoff time. [(Number of years x Tax savings per year) - total bee expense]=0. After that, it's all money and honey ahead.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that advice.


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## ALABASTERCHEEKS (Mar 4, 2016)

Useful reading
https://t.co/lcJgBZQHd3


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

ALABASTERCHEEKS said:


> Useful reading
> https://t.co/lcJgBZQHd3


Too funny! Well, I guess that shows all the contributors here, who obviously think too small.

Can't imagine having to feed all those hives. Must have been pretty expensive. And I don't guess 1000 hives was sustainable in that area. Wonder what they did with all those hives.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Wonder what they did with all those hives.


Watched a bunch of them die during the winter, maybe? 
I just can't imagine needing to go from 100 colonies worth of boxes to 1,000 colonies worth of boxes. Makes my head spin, my garage and my wife's patience aren't big enough.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

It sounds like it was an experiment. If they sold those hives off, they probably could have made a lot of money, profit depending on how much the feed cost.

Here I am agonizing over expanding an extra few hives this summer. Kind of like obsessing over your hangnail when the guy in the next bed is having a heart attack.


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## brettj777 (Feb 27, 2013)

Why not just buy 5 nucs the first year? Start splitting the ones that survive? A master beekeeper "may" be able to split a nuc into 3 or 4....but that's because he has resources and experience you may not have.

Equipment and drawn comb is really the bread and butter of making splits....and Queens. Queens can be hard to come by.

So your goal is awesome. But like you ave admitted, overly ambitious. Buy some bees this year. Maybe get someone to come and host their bees on one parcel...maybe someone who is willing to help mentor you and you can learn from shadowing him on inspections.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Often hives are available inexpensively, after pollination season. Sometimes they are advertised here on beesource. Usually they have grown out to a full deep, and need to be split, treated, expanded, ect. There is a guy close to here, usually has extra, as do most pollinators.


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## KillaBeezs (May 9, 2015)

Not that I think you can go through winter this way... but if your goal is 40 hives in one year from one the only way I could see that possible is by setting that hive up for queen rearing. You "might" be able to graft and make 39 queens from that one hive in one year and put them in queen castles (with the help of your master beekeeper). At that rate you would not be able to rob resources out of your hive to really turn those into nucs able to get through the winter. But it might "technically" be 40 mini mating hives. Could sell the queens in September to other beeks rather then letting them die or pinch the majority and combine back into two or three hives with a low chance of making through winter. But for tax purposes this is likely the cheapest option as the equipment cost would be much lower. If you make your own from cull lumber... $100 worth of frames (no foundation). $50 for building 10 cheap queen castles from cull. Add another $50 for queen grafting equipment. Then food ans mite control. Might be able to do it for under $300 (and if you are able to sell the queens for $10 bucks each - might make enough to cover costs.)

My goal for next year is to raise 8 queens from two hives (and have three full hives and three nucs ready for winter...with four spare queens for emergencies before winter, combining their resources back into weak colonies early winter). I feel that is a bit ambitious and I have drawn comb ready for this expansion.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Don't know what is the mating success rate at
his location. But with 39 queens, how can you
ensure the mating flight return of the virgin queens?
How about doubling the number of virgins to increase the
chance of some mated queens. You have to factor in the
MIA queens too. At $10 dollars a piece it is too cheap.
Mated queens these days selling for $20 dollars easily. 
So if you want to raise 8 queens then might as well double
that amount. How come you cannot do that this year? At least
this will let you know your area's success rate.


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## KillaBeezs (May 9, 2015)

I'm 100% with you bee pro. I'm going to try to raise two sets of 10. The first set I will try to build into one hive and three nucs (assuming I can get 4 out of 10 mated and laying). Then do the second set of 10 to get the extra queens. But if the first set goes better than expected then I won't need to do the other. 

I just think that no matter how well he could manage the hive more than 40 queens from one hive is enough of a stretch. ..doubling for redundancy might be a bridge too far.

$10 is a fire sale price to make sur they go. Though yes he could get more.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

40 hives for how long each year?

Could be as easy as buying 40 packages, dumping them into cardboard nucs once a year with some feed jars on top, taking a picture of them, and then selling 30 nucs a month later.

Take the tax credit, keep 10 hives to try and grow to 40.

The way I look at it, you have $2200 a year to pay for mistakes or for an experienced beek to help you.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

check out these 2 sites as well as BeeSource (asside from the synics)
http://www.mdasplitter.com/

http://dave-cushman.net/bee/newhome.html

If you have unlimited wooden ware and have a commercial mentor,,, with money to back the endevor, you could probably do it in 2 years if you started with 2 overwintered hives that have 8 frames to split early in the year........There are beeks here on BS that have done it,,,,,
It take a LOT of hard work and a TON of knowledge and expeeriance to do . But it could definately be done.....
And I may take it on as a challenge to myself, as I need to increase my #s this year,,,,I currently have about 15 hives comming out of winter,,,I think Mel of "MDA splitter" made a large overwintered hive into 36 in 1 year.....timing and local forage are huge influences in the process and if there isnt a local flow,,, that means you have to feed sugar syrup____Here in lies the knowlege and financial part of the story.....so back to the original question?---Yes you can---In my oppenion---have 40 hives in less than 2 years....

==McBee7==

more specific Cushman site.....http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/increasesummary.html

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> Slow down grasshopper, stretching a nuc to 40 healthy in a season will be difficult, at best. Purchase more, or find someone who can set up an apiary, on the land, & learn how to keep healthy bees before you dive in & hurt yourself


Get Michael Bush's book on practical beekeeping. You won't get 40 colonies out of 1, but he does seem to make a fast buildup out of a couple of packages.


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## etbees (Feb 28, 2016)

So,

Today I have 10 solidly full frames.
Spotted Queen, she is healthy and very productive.
Added another deep on top.
Let's see how long it will take to fill these next ten frames.
Then will split into two hives (ten frames each).
Or, if healthy/fast enough, split into 3 hives (10 frames, 5 frames and 5 frames).

The bees were just as gentle.
It's as if they were sleepwalking.

I plan on opening the cover May 1st to check how the Top 10 are doing.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Do you see any mites or do any form of monitoring on them?
A fast growing hive will have the mites with them if you don't
keep the tf bees. I should say the mite tolerant bees.


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## etbees (Feb 28, 2016)

All,

Thanks for the advice.
Some were cynics.
Others were encouraging.
All realistic.

I'm three months in and have 20 booming frames in two deeps with two honey supers on top.
Haven't split yet.
Thinking I'll try to split into 4 colonies before the end of summer.
I hope all 4 make it through winter
Realistically expecting 3 to survive
But if only 2 survive I'll be happy

My long term (3+ years) goal is to do have a small pollination service.
Local only, no almonds.
So, Texas, Louisiana and SW Arkansas


A tractor full (400) hives are far too many to maintain.
So, I'm guessing anywhere between 24 and 80 (6 to 20 4-ways) would be a good amount for the service but 40 are still needed for my Ag exemption.

I've learned a great deal in my first 100 days but I have muuuuch more to learn.

I've been jumping around in all the forums in here soaking up the knowledge.

Thank you.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Good job. I've taken 5 and turned them into 32 singles and doubles. One more round of increase then it's just getting as many as possible ready for winter.


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## ALOHA BUZZ (Apr 23, 2015)

Dear friend, I'm in my second year of beekeeping, started with 1 beehive on March 29 2015, multiplied them crazy, give 4 to other people, going in winter with 16, out with 8. I made lots of mistakes, my motorhome is rusting. I spent about 60 hours a week at least on building boxes,frames,bases,covers,feeders,vaporizers,and working full-time. I spent over $5500 so far on equipment,tools,queens( virgins) and now I have 16 good colonies. My wife is supportive but not involved. I'm reading a lot and watching YouTube. I'm consumed by the little God's creatures and try to be as disciplined as possible. I'm located in Portland Oregon area and I have no idea what your area is like concerning beekeeping but if you have the heart and skin (for stings!) this is for you. If you're interested in money alone this will be a tall order. Good luck and please let us know what you decide. Marion


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

A hive to half is the hive to have. Two halfs make a whole lot of hives. And half the fun of beekeeping is halving the hives into wholes.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

What's the rest of this story?


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