# Notes from listening to Etienne Tardif -- advantages of insulated hives.



## Alto Beek (Jun 26, 2021)

Sean Govan said:


> These are my key takeaways. Feel free to post your own below, or to correct mine.
> 
> 1. Insulation reduces honey consumption in winter, which means:
> 
> ...


Good information and nicely presented. I am trying a couple of Apimaye 7 frame nucs (splits) this year and if they are successful I will transition my other hives to them. i can lift a 7 frame much easier than a 10 frame (old back)
Thanks


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Very nicely put together Sean. I struggle to get all the info from his graphs. Verbally it is much easier to assimilate for many people. My experience totally supports those internal hive temperatures when the hives are insulated and pulled together. Sure puts the lie to the notion to the trite old saying that "they only heat the cluster, not the box" with the inference that insulation is wasted. Maybe in the south but sure doesn't apply in the north!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

+1 on format comments and the info presentation itself.

I really like when people take the time to make information readable to the others.
Good researchers/writers/presenters are always appreciated.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

crofter said:


> I struggle to get all the info from his graphs.


Me too. Several people have told him so, and his most recent videos reflect an effort to explain things better.



crofter said:


> Sure puts the lie to the notion to the trite old saying that "they only heat the cluster, not the box" with the inference that insulation is wasted. Maybe in the south but sure doesn't apply in the north!


I think it helps in the heat as well. Think of all the unnecessary effort of the bees carrying water and fanning when they could be doing something less stressful. First hand experience from Kansas. (I'm convinced that bees live longer when they work less. Laying worker hives literally survive for months if you let them. Also, I suspect that one reason for winter bees living longer than summer bees is just that--rest. I think it's more than just huge fat bodies packed with vitellogenin.) Think of a bee tree in summer--shady canopy with massive wood walls. Probably pretty comfy.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

Alto Beek said:


> Good information and nicely presented. I am trying a couple of Apimaye 7 frame nucs (splits) this year and if they are successful I will transition my other hives to them. i can lift a 7 frame much easier than a 10 frame (old back)
> Thanks


Good point, weight is another big advantage.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

All the OP posted may be true, but we tried the early styrafoam hives from Finland and they where not worth the trouble. 

Crazy Roland


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

This is a great summary, thank you sir.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Roland said:


> All the OP posted may be true, but we tried the early styrafoam hives from Finland and they where not worth the trouble.
> 
> Crazy Roland


The bee space is very poor in mine from Finland.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

> The honey consumption of Etienne's bees pre-brood is* 3-4 pounds/month.* After brood rearing starts, it becomes *14 to 16 pounds/month*!


Moses Quinby: "A stock of bees will, generally, consume *a pound of honey per month*, betwixt the 1st of October and the 1st of March: from this time to the end of May, they will consume* two pounds per month*"



> Etienne's bees only eat *60 pounds* in his 6-month winters.


Moses Quinby (at a latitude of 42 degrees): "Not one swarm in fifty will consume twenty-five pounds of honey through the winter, that is, from the last of September to the first of April (six months). The average loss in that time is about *eighteen pounds*; but the critical time is later — about the last of May or first of June, in many places."

Bevan and Warre tell a very similar story. So much for progress ... 
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> 7. Etienne used to find dead/wet bees along the walls due to condensation forming there, but lining the walls with plywood somehow solved that problem. He's not sure why. (His guess: the plywood absorbs the moisture as soon as it forms. My guess: the thermal mass of the plywood helps the inner surface of the plywood stay warmer than the dew point, causing the condensation to happen *behind *the plywood.)


The bees were going thirsty - the real issue, as the foam absorbs none.
Then they would go down to the very edge where some condensate was to be found - and froze there.
Now they are able to lick the moist plywood without quite going to the very edge of life and death (there, at very bottom of the hive, by the screened bottom water condenses).
The phenomenon of bees needing water in winter is discussed enough here:








Pros and Cons of Having Free Space in Frame Top Feed Area


For optimum wintering in cold climates. I have seen some photos of a piece of plastic sheet, canvaas, reflectix etc. floated over the dry sugar feed on frame tops. I have commonly wintered hives quite sucessfully with an inch and a half space between frame tops and the bottom surface of a quilt...




www.beesource.com


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

I'm glad you all enjoyed it, it was kind of fun to write.

I edited the original post to include some notes I forgot about. Two of them are pretty important and you might want to check them out. They are at the very bottom of the original post.



little_john said:


> Moses Quinby: "A stock of bees will, generally, consume *a pound of honey per month*, betwixt the 1st of October and the 1st of March: from this time to the end of May, they will consume* two pounds per month*"


Did Moses Quinby have insulated hives? Like, double-walled with sawdust in between?

I listened to Langstroth's famous book _The Hive and the Honey Bee_ last year (you can find the audiobook for free on librivox.org), and discovered that he was very passionate about insulation. He absolutely HATED thin-walled wooden hives, in fact he must be turning in his grave today looking at all the uninsulated hives with his name attached! He probably spent more time writing about insulation than he spent writing about movable frames!



GregV said:


> The bees were going thirsty


I don't disbelieve you, but how do you know? Do bees actually need to drink the condensation, or is that just another common misconception? How do we know that they don't get all the moisture they need, just from consuming the honey and metabolizing the sugars? (This would be a good question for that engineer in the Yukon). Perhaps large colonies need to drink the condensation because they need less honey per bee to stay warm. Perhaps small colonies don't need to drink as much condensation because they need MORE honey per bee to stay warm.



GregV said:


> Then they would go down to the very edge where some condensate was to be found - and froze there.


You could be right, but to me it sounded like something else. To me it sounded like he used to get condensation along the walls, *at the same height as the cluster* (before he started using plywood). And whenever the cluster touched the edge of the box, the outer layer of bees got wet and could not stay warm. It did not sound like they were leaving the cluster to get a drink.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> I don't disbelieve you, but how do you know?


Go that thread I posted.
Read.
Watch a handy video I specifically posted for the demonstration - people spent the time to document the issue (and did a very good job).
One of common bee needs in the winter - they need to *re-hydrate* the honey that crystallized (happens often enough).
It is not about drinking that much.
It is about liquefying the hardened carbs.
Where will they get the water?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> And whenever the cluster touched the edge of the box, the outer layer of bees got wet and could not stay warm.


Bees don't just "get wet" as if something is dripping on them in the super warm poly hives.
There is nothing to drip - as you very well documented.

Instead, the bees go the edges of the friendly environment to get the water (again yourself you documented how the bees easily move around).
IF gone too far - they quickly get hypothermia and freeze in place.
Notice that temps drops rapidly within inches away from the cluster if going downwards (it is very, very cold just at the screen bottom level).

Now IF a bee freezes and later thaws - it will be wet. Absolutely so.
This has nothing about condensation - a common misconception.
It has everything to do with the internal ruptures of the bee organs - the moisture from inside the bee simply oozes and thus the bee is wet (just if you thaw a frozen apple - the same story).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> You could be right, but to me it sounded like something else. To me it sounded like he used to get condensation along the walls, *at the same height as the cluster* (before he started using plywood). And whenever the cluster touched the edge of the box, the outer layer of bees got wet and could not stay warm. It did not sound like they were leaving the cluster to get a drink.


Quoiting you again:
...........and *the condensation happens at the bottom of the hive, below the cluster*. At 40 below, condensation is going to happen to matter what you do.......
And this is completely logical.
This is where the thirsty bees are trying to get their water
Then they freeze.

Once the plywood was installed - it helped.
Plywood wicks the moisture *UP* from the point of condensation - thus the bees no longer need to travel to the very bottom of the hive - the very edge of terminal danger.

This is a well documented issue with overly warm hives (poly) - the relative humidity in them in cold winter is very, very low.
The colder it is outside - the lower the relative humidity inside.

OK, fine, let me save you few minutes.
Here is a video where a beek virtually waters his bees in the poly hives - after the hard freeze the bees were screaming thirsty.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

This is very good information, Greg.

It'll take me couple days to assimilate it, I guess. Simple enough but I am a slow learner.

You posted a lot of videos in the thread you linked to. It will take me awhile to go through them, but they definitely seem worth it, so I will. Thank you.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Bevan and Warre tell a very similar story. So much for progress


Italian-derived bees in thin-walled Root hives - talking 150lbs of wintering weight.


Even folks in Siberian regions winter on half that.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

I just watched the video with the sponges. Wow. This is a paradigm shift for me. They were grumpy because they had no condensation to drink, so he put wet sponges on them and they calmed down. Also gave an impermeable surface for condensation to form on (clear plastic).

Too much condensation right above them can still kill them, right? If they can't drink it as fast as it forms? Or do you think that never happens?

How come some colonies got sponges and others did not? (My attention was divided between the subtitles and the image).

I have 54 nucs that I am wintering in just 5 deep frames. My intent was to have R10 insulation on the sides and bottom, with R20 on top. Now I am thinking of having an R10 roof for half of them, and an R20 roof for the other half, just to compare.

I am going to do a YouTube series on how these nucs overwinter, starting this weekend and running to next April or May. Should be pretty interesting.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Sean; My guess is that if you can get the vapor loss and insulation levels in the ball park that the bees can control the amount of condensation droplets with their ability to control the temperature. Need more water, back off on the heat; need less water crank up the heat above the dew point and the condensation will react accordingly.
That is just my analogical way of trying to understand it. It meshes with Etienne's and others graphing of fairly tight range of temperature and humidity in the cluster area. If we go too wild in providing what _we think should be good_  we could easily be hurting the bees game.
There are quite a few inquisitive minds playing with this issue and how to fit it into local conditions. Sometimes we have to go back over the past and look at things in a different light.
Fusion_power has mentioned that the relative size of the cluster can make a big difference in insulation and ventilation requirements in order to give the bees workable environments.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> Too much condensation right above them can still kill them, right? If they can't drink it as fast as it forms? Or do you think that never happens?
> 
> How come some colonies got sponges and others did not? (My attention was divided between the subtitles and the image).


Back to that thread; this has been discussed - the never ending talk of the "condensation right above them" (which should not even occur if a little thought given to it - the immpermeable cover should be made warm right above the bees; it will be invariable cool on the edges and in the corners - where the water will condense and be available when needed).








Pros and Cons of Having Free Space in Frame Top Feed Area


For optimum wintering in cold climates. I have seen some photos of a piece of plastic sheet, canvaas, reflectix etc. floated over the dry sugar feed on frame tops. I have commonly wintered hives quite sucessfully with an inch and a half space between frame tops and the bottom surface of a quilt...




www.beesource.com





Sponges - he gave the sponges to the most distressed colonies.
The strongest colonies were really, really desperate as they indeed heat the hives warm enough to drive the RH way low - thus no liquid water anywhere in the hives to speak of.

The less stressing colonies (most smaller colonies) just simply got the plastic film installed - so they could just collect the condensate as needed.
Smaller colonies simply don't heat the volume as much - which makes the poly hives about ideal for them - good balance of moisture and temp.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

crofter said:


> Sean; My guess is that if you can get the vapor loss and insulation levels in the ball park that the bees can control the amount of condensation droplets with their ability to control the temperature. Need more water, back off on the heat; need less water crank up the heat above the dew point and the condensation will react accordingly.
> That is just my analogical way of trying to understand it. It meshes with Etienne's and others graphing of fairly tight range of temperature and humidity in the cluster area. If we go too wild in providing what _we think should be good_  we could easily be hurting the bees game.
> There are quite a few inquisitive minds playing with this issue and how to fit it into local conditions. Sometimes we have to go back over the past and look at things in a different light.
> Fusion_power has mentioned that the relative size of the cluster can make a big difference in insulation and ventilation requirements in order to give the bees workable environments.


I think you're right. But since I don't yet know where the ballpark is, I'm going to be inspecting a lot this winter. Maybe not ideal, but it's the only way to learn. That way I can get a feel for what is really going on, and make adjustments. Then in future winters, I'll be able to make those adjustments in advance.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

GregV said:


> the never ending talk of the "condensation right above them" (which should not even occur if a little thought given to it - the immpermeable cover should be made warm right above the bees; it will be invariable cool on the edges and in the corners - where the water will condense and be available when needed).


What about when they are at the very bottom of a double deep?

Is this another reason to overwinter small colonies in small cavities--making sure they're close to the ceiling?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> I have 54 nucs that I am wintering in just 5 deep frames. My intent was to have R10 insulation on the sides and bottom, with R20 on top. Now I am thinking of having an R10 roof for half of them, and an R20 roof for the other half, just to compare.
> 
> I am going to do a YouTube series on how these nucs overwinter, starting this weekend and running to next April or May. Should be pretty interesting.


Anyway, I recommend you scan through that channels (and there are others).
The guys winter hunders of nucs in the poly boxes - pretty routine by now.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> What about when they are at the very bottom of a double deep?
> 
> Is this another reason to overwinter small colonies in small cavities--making sure they're close to the ceiling?


Even then - the super well insulated ceiling prevents that "condensation right above them" issue.
It really isn't a big deal and will not occur with insulated top.
If any condensation, it will be on the internal walls.

The bigger deal in the past was this idea that the "cluster does not heat the hive" and so why bother insulation anywhere (including the top).

Well, somehow most people did not understand that created the ""condensation right above them" issue.
Also to most people the "wet bees" meant just that - moisture issue (which just had to come from the dripping!).
Well, no one explained to them what the defrosted "wet apples" mean I guess.
LOL

Actually, as of today this "drip" issue does not really exist.
Most anyone anywhere know to insulate the top well enough, regardless of the hives (wood or poly).


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

GregV said:


> Also to most people the "wet bees" meant just that - moisture issue (which just had to come from the dripping!).
> Well, no one explained to them what the defrosted "wet apples" mean I guess.


This makes sense, but I haven't completely wrapped my mind around it yet. Boy oh boy am I gonna learn a lot this winter.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

All this discussion, yet nobody mentions Bernhard Mobus and his research with highly insulated hives. He answered most of these questions 23 years ago. The short version is that bees can winter either of two ways, in wooden hives with higher honey consumption or in highly insulated hives with a water source. Larger colonies suffer most from moisture deprivation in insulated hives. Small colonies suffer most in wooden hives because they have to produce so much heat to stay warm relative to the number of bees in the cluster. We humans tend to see things in human terms. When it comes to bees, we should ask their opinion of the type hive they can winter in. I can easily see the benefit of indoor wintering in a cold climate. This applies regardless of type hive. With indoor wintering, you can control temperature and humidity at optimum levels for the bees. Mobus' info was published in ABJ 1998 July and August issues the best I recall.

I'm going to elaborate on a couple of points. There is a time and place where highly insulated hives are very beneficial. That is for a small cluster that would otherwise be unable to winter due to heat demands. When a very large colony is placed in a highly insulated hive, the colony readily goes into water deprivation which is caused by a combination of being too warm which means they don't metabolize enough honey to produce the water they need. The chemistry involved is simple. Each sugar molecule C6H12O6 combines with 6 O2 molecules to produce 6 C02 (carbon dioxide) plus 6 H20 (water). That is a huge amount of water. Another way to look at this is that sugar is just 6 molecules of water stabilized by 6 carbon atoms. So sugar is water. We metabolize it the same way as the bees. We turn sugar into carbon dioxide and water in the process extracting the hydrogen coupled binding energy.

One issue I don't see mentioned above is carbon dioxide accumulation in the hive. While moisture accumulation is an issue and has to be addressed, we also have to consider carbon dioxide accumulation. This is why indoor wintering often incorporates a heat exchanger so the carbon dioxide can be exhausted outdoors while keeping the heat inside.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> Bernhard Mobus
> 
> The short version is that bees can winter either of two ways, in wooden hives with higher honey consumption or in highly insulated hives with a water source. Larger colonies suffer most from moisture deprivation in insulated hives. Small colonies suffer most in wooden hives because they have to produce so much heat to stay warm relative to the number of bees in the cluster.



And there is really not much else to add.
I did not know of Bernhard Mobus.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> One issue I don't see mentioned above is carbon dioxide accumulation in the hive.


Since poly hives by default come with ventilated bottoms, CO2 is a non-issue typically - simply due to the CO2's relative heavy weight and, thus, sinking down through the floor.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> When a very large colony is placed in a highly insulated hive, the colony readily goes into water deprivation which is caused by a combination of being too warm which means they don't metabolize enough honey to produce the water they need.


So, speaking of large colony wintering in the poly hives...
Back to the basics - solid bottom ventilated via the top with a poly film over the bees for water condensation.
Why bother?
Because come March it takes a quick reconfiguration to throttle down the ventilation and make the hive warmer, and this hive will explode in a very short time (basically, one can start the spring in this hive regardless of the outside conditions).
Like here:


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Sean Govan said:


> Did Moses Quinby have insulated hives? Like, double-walled with sawdust in between?


He used three hives. The first (upon which his book was based) was a single-walled box-hive. The second was a modified (deeper frame) Langstroth which he found to be a poor performer. The third, which had closed-end frames, had the facility of being double-wall (air-spaced) but was often used without the outer cover.



> I listened to Langstroth's famous book _The Hive and the Honey Bee_ last year (you can find the audiobook for free on librivox.org), and discovered that he was very passionate about insulation. He absolutely HATED thin-walled wooden hives, in fact he must be turning in his grave today looking at all the uninsulated hives with his name attached! He probably spent more time writing about insulation than he spent writing about movable frames!


Audiobook ??? Various editions of his book can be obtained from the Internet Archive in PDF and DJVU formats (and others). I agree with you about his passion regarding insulation - he also wrote extensively about the need for ventilation. Amos Root stripped-away most of Langstroth's features in the quest for simplicity of construction and thus profit. Yes - the Root-Heddon Hive is indeed a 'Langstroth Hive' largely in name only.

Although Langstroth is THE big name in beekeeping, I think it's important to recognise that he wasn't a particularly practical person (a cabinet-maker made all his experimental kit for him, and the hand-made hives with which Langstroth later attempted to compete with Root's mass-produced woodenware) nor was he a 'hands-on' beekeeper to the same extent as Quinby (1200 hives) or Hetherington (3000 Hives). Langstroth however was a distinquished academic (ex Yale), and proved to be 'the right man at the right time'. I think it's greatly to his credit that he produced what he did despite the mental illness which persisted right thoughout his life - an illness without which he would never have given up a career in the Ministry, and would therefore most probably have never discovered honey-bees. Fate sometimes deals strange hands ...
LJ


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

It is hard for me to reconcile that Langstroth got so much right when he thought of free hanging frames with bee space around them yet he missed so much on the size and shape of the hive. Part of it was from the black bees he was working with. Another part was arguably failure to pay enough attention to the bees needs. Thankfully Langstroth avoided the abomination of the Heddon hive which was too small to make a decent crop of honey. We don't give enough credit to the early beekeepers who developed the hardware we use so blithely today. Bingham, Hoffman, Langstroth, Root, Dadant, Doolittle, Quinby, and others should be recognized, yet very few beekeepers today can name even one thing they invented.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

Fusion_power said:


> All this discussion, yet nobody mentions Bernhard Mobus and his research with highly insulated hives. He answered most of these questions 23 years ago. The short version is that bees can winter either of two ways, in wooden hives with higher honey consumption or in highly insulated hives with a water source. Larger colonies suffer most from moisture deprivation in insulated hives. Small colonies suffer most in wooden hives because they have to produce so much heat to stay warm relative to the number of bees in the cluster. We humans tend to see things in human terms. When it comes to bees, we should ask their opinion of the type hive they can winter in. I can easily see the benefit of indoor wintering in a cold climate. This applies regardless of type hive. With indoor wintering, you can control temperature and humidity at optimum levels for the bees. Mobus' info was published in ABJ 1998 July and August issues the best I recall.
> 
> I'm going to elaborate on a couple of points. There is a time and place where highly insulated hives are very beneficial. That is for a small cluster that would otherwise be unable to winter due to heat demands. When a very large colony is placed in a highly insulated hive, the colony readily goes into water deprivation which is caused by a combination of being too warm which means they don't metabolize enough honey to produce the water they need. The chemistry involved is simple. Each sugar molecule C6H12O6 combines with 6 O2 molecules to produce 6 C02 (carbon dioxide) plus 6 H20 (water). That is a huge amount of water. Another way to look at this is that sugar is just 6 molecules of water stabilized by 6 carbon atoms. So sugar is water. We metabolize it the same way as the bees. We turn sugar into carbon dioxide and water in the process extracting the hydrogen coupled binding energy.
> 
> One issue I don't see mentioned above is carbon dioxide accumulation in the hive. While moisture accumulation is an issue and has to be addressed, we also have to consider carbon dioxide accumulation. This is why indoor wintering often incorporates a heat exchanger so the carbon dioxide can be exhausted outdoors while keeping the heat inside.


THANK YOU! Fantastic information!

I've been wondering how the sugar got broken down! (I'm guessing it's similar for the other sugars that the sucrose gets inverted into?)

So now I know to keep an eye on my moisture levels and adjust condensation levels. Hopefully all my colonies will have enough condensation on their reflectix inner covers and I won't have to do anything.



GregV said:


> I did not know of Bernhard Mobus.


Me neither...actually just heard of him for the first time on Adrian Quiney's channel, but only in relation to IPM varroa control. I might finally have to pay for the ABJ just so I can see what he says.



Fusion_power said:


> Bingham, Hoffman, Langstroth, Root, Dadant, Doolittle, Quinby, and others should be recognized, yet very few beekeepers today can name even one thing they invented.


Thanks... my reading list just got longer.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Sean Govan said:


> I'm glad you all enjoyed it, it was kind of fun to write.
> 
> I edited the original post to include some notes I forgot about. Two of them are pretty important and you might want to check them out. They are at the very bottom of the original post.
> 
> ...


Honey bees have no additional requirement for water consumption, honey is 20% water, and metabolic catabolism releases water.

*C6H12O6 + 6 O2 --> 6 CO2 + 6 H2O + heat* + (LOTS OF WATER 20% by mass).

If anything, they have *excessive* water.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

username00101 said:


> Honey bees have no additional requirement for water consumption, honey is 20% water, and metabolic catabolism releases water.
> 
> *C6H12O6 + 6 O2 --> 6 CO2 + 6 H2O + heat* + (LOTS OF WATER 20% by mass).
> 
> If anything, they have *excessive* water.


I agree that is a huge amount of water. But HOW DO YOU KNOW that this huge amount of water is ENOUGH water? Maybe they need more than you think. Look at GregV's links to Russian videos. Read this whole thread, and THIS whole thread, and you will see plenty of evidence that honey does not NECESSARILY ALWAYS provide enough water.

For some reason, whatever Etienne Tardif is doing, his bees seem to always have enough water. Other people's bees apparently don't. Greg thinks that Etienne's bees drink the water that is wicked up by the plywood.

I seem to remember Etienne mentioning that his small colonies wintered better than his big colonies. Perhaps large colonies eat less honey (per bee) than small ones, so they get less water (per bee) from the honey that they DO eat.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Enough ?

Well, yes it's plenty of water. They don't need any more than they get from honey and metabolism.

When bees are kept indoors at above freezing temps in Canada, with no insulation, completely in the dark for 6+ months.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Don't forget that when air at 0 deg F. is warmed to the temperature of the cluster, it will be VERY dry. Additional water may be needed to keep the bees from desiccation., or they will have to eat more just for the water.

Crazy Roland


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

At the low temperatures, they would not be able to move much to drink water anyways. 0F is quite cold.

Just remember that all this "water" is in the form of a vapor with bees.

They eat the 20% water honey, and metabolize it - and secrete water in the form of a vapor....lots and lots of water.

Or they "decide" to retain the water inside their bodies.

Somehow the bees are able to determine when they have "enough", and release extra water through their spiracles into the air.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

When a person does not know what he is talking about and makes a wide open comment about bees having too much water, you pretty much can guess that person has no idea what bees need to get through winter.

As I said above, read Mobus' article in ABJ 1998 July and August. He laid it out in black and white including weighing individual bees to prove they were desiccated by conditions in an insulated hive. Bees need sugar (preferably from honey) as an energy source. They need water. They need oxygen to metabolize the sugar. They need pollen for protein and fats. If a man comes along and tells you that highly insulated hives are the greatest thing since sliced bread, look very close to see what he missed. I've yet to meet even one who understood the dynamic of water balance in a wintering colony. There is still a use for an insulated hive, but you have to understand how to use it and especially have to work out a method to ensure the bees have water when they can't get out to forage for it. An insulated hive can keep a small colony going where it will kill a large colony dead due to water balance issues. In a wood hive, a large colony will have plenty of water and may have issues with condensation on the hive top and walls. For this reason, an upper entrance has long been known to help with wintering by giving an escape for the excess water vapor. In a highly insulated hive, properly done so there is little or no condensation, a small colony needs only a small lower entrance. Do due diligence if you plan on using insulated hives!

Roland has a very good idea how much trouble insulated hives can cause. He has the experience to back it up too.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> At the low temperatures, they would not be able to move much to drink water anyways. 0F is quite cold.
> 
> Or they "decide" to retain the water inside their bodies.


In fact, there are "water tank" bees - look it up.
So indeed they will drink up and store the water for later.
And so they don't need to go for a drink at 0F - as long as they have some full "water tanks" around.
This lasts for some time but not infinite, of course. 
Eventually some bulk water access is required OR else.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

Fusion_power said:


> weighing individual bees


Wow, that's dedication.



Fusion_power said:


> An insulated hive can keep a small colony going where it will kill a large colony dead due to water balance issues.


So what about tree cavities? Aren't those fairly well insulated? Do large colonies struggle to get water in a tree the same way as in an insulated hive? (I guess you'll tell me that colonies don't GET that large in most hollow trees because the cavities just aren't big enough).

Can you tell me why Etienne's plywood hack works? In case you missed it: he has Lyson hives, and he used to get dead/wet bees along the walls. So now he puts plywood follower boards along the walls, and he no longer gets dead/wet bees there. GregV and I had 2 different interpretations of this result, and I would be curious to know yours.

What were Mobus's insulated hives like? I mean, I should look it up myself, and I will. But just the basic setup? When we talk about "insulated hives," I'm starting to realize that there's a lot more than one way to set them up. Were they pure poly? Or wood on the inside? (Just trying to compare them to Etienne's setup).


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

username00101 said:


> When bees are kept indoors at above freezing temps in Canada, with no insulation, completely in the dark for 6+ months.


The building humidity is controlled, I wonder if the humidity of the air outside the hive has something to do with how much water they bees would need inside the hive. Our humidity is usually extremely low we are said to have winters with a 'dry cold'. When beekeepers up here keep single deeps they have a very small lower entrance along with a very small upper entrance and the whole hive is buried underneath a pile of snow. The heat from the hive melts a hole in the snow making a type of igloo. I would assume that the air around the entrance is extremely moist simply because the heat from the hive is constantly melting a thin layer of the snow . I would consider these hives to be super insulated, but they are also kept within a humid environment. 



Fusion_power said:


> There is still a use for an insulated hive, but you have to understand how to use it and especially have to work out a method to ensure the bees have water when they can't get out to forage for it.


Food for thought for me, I need a super insulated hive if only to decrease the honey consumption in the winter. Now to decide how best to provide that water.

This thread is extremely informative and a great read, thanks. I think it, along with a few other threads, might need to be revisited by me in order to absorb all the information.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Fusion_power said:


> read Mobus' article in ABJ 1998 July and August


My Google-fu has failed me, and I am unable to figure out how to view issues that old. I can get back to January 2001. Are these digitized anywhere?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

username00101 said:


> Enough ?
> 
> Well, yes it's plenty of water. They don't need any more than they get from honey and metabolism.
> 
> When bees are kept indoors at above freezing temps in Canada, with no insulation, completely in the dark for 6+ months.


There is plenty of water in the honey; take that as a given. The gist of what we are discussing here is whether the hive ventilation we provide can bleed off far too much moisture (lost to the bees for consumption purposes.) Take a screened top feed shim with 6 inches of loose planer shavings and deliberately ventilated sides! Not at all like the touted hollow in a tree that is so often appealed to as natural perfection!

This planer shavings quilt box is exactly what I have been using for quite a few years with apparent success ( if survival is the only criteria) but I am curious about the amount of suicide plunges into the snow. Are they desperate for water? I am trying an experiment where I can supply equal insulation values but with the ability to monitor and control the amount of water vapor loss.

We can choose to believe whatever we want. Doesnt make it necessarily correct.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I like the monitoring idea, crofter. I am working on some projects that could allow that pretty easily. There are also some fairly inexpensive options if a person wanted to stick something in their hive over the winter and collect some data, like:









Amazon.com: Inkbird Thermometer and Hygrometer Smart Sensor Data Logger with Waterproof External Probe Magnet Alert for Android and iOS Used for Food Storage Brewing Reptiles Instrument IBS-TH1. : Appliances


Buy Inkbird Thermometer and Hygrometer Smart Sensor Data Logger with Waterproof External Probe Magnet Alert for Android and iOS Used for Food Storage Brewing Reptiles Instrument IBS-TH1.: Humidity Meters - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com





The one thing that kept going through my head over and over on this is that there's a HUGE degree of variability to all of this. Some have mentioned dry winters, some have more humidity. The fact that humidity is _relative_ means that someone at -10°F is going to have a relative humidity level in the hive that's dryer than the person at 10°F outside by the time it warms up to a common temperature inside the hive - even if they both start at 30% RH outside.

The wind is going to play a part, we can all imagine sitting next to a drafty window in the winter versus a nicely sealed one and ANY opening in the hive is going to be a draft source. Gaps in boxes, swirling currents underneath screens, snow insulating the bottoms, the color of the hive related to radiant heat absorption ... all matter. Honey can be 19% or it can be 15% water, it can be crystalized or not anywhere in that span, the size of the cluster, the genetics of the queen, the relative health of the colony, so many variables. There's not going to be one answer for everyone.

I don't even keep bees yet, but you folks have told me beekeeping is local so many times I hear it in my sleep.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Sean Govan said:


> So what about tree cavities? Aren't those fairly well insulated? .


Some are, certainly - but some are split from top to bottom. In reality, tree cavities are very randomly created. In his book 'Honey Farming' ROB Manley talks about one he came across in which the combs were almost fully exposed (zero insulation, but out of the rain) - and that colony survived from year to year.

Why is there this constant focus on trees ? But - you're not the only one doing this - not by a long shot ... 

There is this curious notion that trees have provided THE 'natural' nest of the honeybee. (Thanks, Tom Seeley ...) Some people have even suggested that bees have actually* evolved *their behaviour in response to the cavities found in trees. But that's just so much balony.

Tree cavities result from rotting-out of the heartwood as a result of damage to their bark, and so require a more-or-less continuous moist environment (rain ++) for that rotting to take place. But bees originated in Africa, where moisture is at a premium, and tree cavities are very few and far between as a result.

Gene Kritsky has written a very interesting book 'Quest for the Perfect Hive', in which he traces the changes which have taken place in beehive design during recorded history, and shows that humans have constructed beehives based on the natural cavities around them within which the bees have been observed.
During the 'golden age' (my term) of beekeeping, in the days of the Egyptian Pharoahs, when honey was used as a form of currency with which to pay taxes, bees were kept in horizontal hives: these were long cylindrical tubes made from clay, which were stacked one upon the other to form walls. The reason hives were made this way was that bees had been observed living within cavities which had been formed in the mud side-walls of rivers. Perhaps these cavities had initially been made by birds - who knows ? - but the bees were quite happy living in them, and so beekeepers simply copied what they observed.

When honeybees moved further north into Asia and across into Europe, they needed cavities - and trees provided those. But this occurred relatively recently, only a few thousand years ago - which can be thought of as just 'yesterday' in evolutionary terms.

It might be of interest that vertical beehives are a fairly recent phenomenon - for thousands of years beehives were horizontal, because the cavities which bees occupied in the natural world were also horizontal. But these days, horizontal hives are considered to be somewhat weird. 

FWIW, Kritsky's book can be read (or even downloaded) from: The quest perfect hive

More reading ... sorry about that ! 
LJ


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> This planer shavings quilt box is exactly what I have been using for quite a few years with apparent success ( if survival is the only criteria) but I am curious about the amount of suicide plunges into the snow. Are they desperate for water?


That has been my question as well in all of this. Dead bees in the snow is considered normal and good up here but sometimes the amount can be tremendous and spread for a long distance. If one can rule out mites or disease, then what could possibly be the cause? Do bees wait to die until the weather warms, or do winter bees normally die in those large amounts on any given day, or are they foolish and stray too far from the opening and get cold.

I wonder if on warmer days when they come out to rest on the landing board if a little moisture place there would be used at all?


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

little_john said:


> Why is there this constant focus on trees ?


Winnie the Pooh! (Only half joking)



little_john said:


> where moisture is at a premium


That's simply not true. Africa is a big place. Some of Africa gets HUGE amounts of water. This is like saying "Moisture is at a premium in North America." Well, it certainly is scarce in the Sonoran desert...



little_john said:


> tree cavities are very few and far between as a result


In the jungle?



little_john said:


> Kritsky's book can be read (or even downloaded) from: The quest perfect hive


Never apologize for adding to my reading list!

The modern "theory" dogma of the evolution of species makes less than zero sense, but that is a huge subject and I don't want to derail this thread... so I will only object, not argue. There's a subforum on here somewhere for non-beekeeping subjects, and we can take it up there if anyone wants to discuss it.

I emailed Etienne Tardif asking him to chip in on this thread. I particularly want to hear what he says about Fusion_power and Bernhard Mobus's insight on drinking water during winter, and Greg's theory about water wicking up the plywood.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> Greg's theory about water wicking up the plywood.


The nature of the materials themselves (variety of foams) is somehow ignored/overlooked in this entire talk as if insignificant (but it is significant).

Not only the wicking by wood material has a positive effect.

There is also the negative effect of the modern poly hives - all poly materials are hydrophobic and, thus, even IF the water to condensate on the poly walls - the droplets will simply roll down as no wicking occurs into the material. Of course, it takes for the droplets to be large enough to roll down.\
All in all, any condensation in the poly hives occurs at the very bottom where the bees are simply risking their lives or simply don't even go.

Untreated wood is a hydrophilic material - to compare.
It will grab and absorb moisture (yes, the propolis gets into the way some, but propolis is also partly water soluble and thus grabs onto the water).
Thus, the wooden interface inside the poly hives is a good thing (even if it is a thin layer of plywood).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> So what about tree cavities? Aren't those fairly well insulated?


Natural cavities are very random in nature.
Great insulated walls can be totally undone by the sub-optimal entrance holes.
Insulation alone is not the decider.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Sean Govan said:


> That's simply not true. Africa is a big place. Some of Africa gets HUGE amounts of water. This is like saying "Moisture is at a premium in North America." Well, it certainly is scarce in the Sonoran desert...
> 
> In the jungle?


Very different conditions during that period of history than we see today - although whenever I think of Africa (which I've never visited), I tend to think of this as being pretty typical:










Scrubby trees and savannah grasslands stretching far out to the horizon - where the lion (the so-called 'King of the Jungle' - some jungle  ) hunts prey species such as antelope, wildebeest and zebra.

There* are* areas of jungle (tropical rain-forest) certainly, but they are not as attractive to the honeybee as those areas of the savannah which are rich in nectar-bearing plants.

The honeybee is generally considered to have evolved during the Miocene period, some 23 to 5 million years ago. My memory's not all that good now about the details, but I can remember that the whole epoch was triggered by the formation of the Antarctic land-mass, which screwed with global ocean currents which in turn caused widespread changes to the environment.

This is what Wikipedia has to say about these events:
*The subsequent uplift of mountains in the western Mediterranean region and a global fall in sea levels combined to cause a temporary drying up of the Mediterranean Sea (known as the Messinian salinity crisis) near the end of the Miocene*.

*The global trend was towards increasing aridity caused primarily by global cooling reducing the ability of the atmosphere to absorb moisture. Uplift of East Africa in the late Miocene was partly responsible for the shrinking of tropical rain forests in that region, and Australia got drier as it entered a zone of low rainfall in the Late Miocene. *

*Life during the Miocene Epoch was mostly supported by the two newly formed biomes, kelp forests and grasslands. Grasslands allow for more grazers, such as horses, rhinoceroses, and hippos. Ninety-five percent of modern plants existed by the end of this epoch. *

So - shrinking forests gave way to grasslands, where nectar-bearing plants began to evolve, and the symbiosis between these and honeybees began to develop. Or so the story goes ...
There was also drying-up of water sources generally, with the formation of water-holes, no doubt. I believe early humans came on the scene around then, too.

It's difficult to see how conditions suitable for the widespread rotting-out of heartwood to produce tree cavities could have existed at that time, although no doubt a few may have.
'best
LJ


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

GregV said:


> The nature of the materials themselves (variety of foams) is somehow ignored/overlooked in this entire talk as if insignificant (but it is significant).
> 
> Not only the wicking by wood material has a positive effect.
> 
> ...


That makes so much sense. You know, my original plan for my XPS nuc boxes was to line the inside with 1/4" plywood, but I changed my mind when I saw the price. It still costs $25 a sheet at Menards, but hopefully it will come down a little more by the time I make the next generation of boxes.

What do you think of lining the inside with this 1/8 inch hardboard? It's only $9 a sheet. Do you think it would swell and break down too fast? At least it would be hydrophilic...I think.

Spongy rotten wood inside a hollow tree (sorry little_john, couldn't resist!) must be even more hydrophilic.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

GregV said:


> Natural cavities are very random in nature.
> Great insulated walls can be totally undone by the sub-optimal entrance holes.
> Insulation alone is not the decider.


Yup...that entrance would be sub-optimal. No doubt about it.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Thank you Sean for the time consuming effort condensing the notes and to all others for an informative discussion. 
It somewhat amazes me that with the technology we have, we are still in the dark about what happens inside the hive ( pun intended) I am not technically proficient, so I ask is there a reason why small night vision cameras could not be placed in the hive along with the other sensors measuring temperature, humidity, etc? This would be a great research project, especially if it was run for several years. J


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> What do you think of lining the inside with this 1/8 inch hardboard? It's only $9 a sheet. Do you think it would swell and break down too fast? At least it would be hydrophilic...I think.


I guess I have some dummy boards and swarm traps that use the hardboard and the bees still alive dispite all the glue in that material. 
Guess OK in a pinch.

But I would still fish around for plywood for free (I got plenty of various ply scraps picked up - fully usable for this).


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

GregV said:


> dispite all the glue in that material


I can't think of a reason to worry about the glue.

Well, it still absorbs water pretty well, right? But if it swells too bad it would mess up the bee space. How much have your dummy boards swelled?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> I can't think of a reason to worry about the glue.
> 
> Well, it still absorbs water pretty well, right? But if it swells too bad it would mess up the bee space. How much have your dummy boards swelled?


Nothing swells up.
But a matter of fact, I have rather a different problem with my wooden hives - rather too much air I suspect.
There is nothing there to swell.
Will be running plastic over my clusters and see.

You are running foam - test it out and see.

I don't know of the glue; just avoid when I can.

Hey, you should search for Calkal and read about his poly hives.
He has plenty of recent content and is actually based in WI (maybe even close to you).
I do recommend.


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## rdimanin (Jan 17, 2020)

Been using Apimaye, Technosetbee & Anel poly hives for years & never had a problem with overwintering. I've read all of the comments on this post & am astounded that people who don't use insulated hives (or people who have no real experience with bees) actually offer "expert" opinions on moisture etc during overwintering. I have never had a colony starve in polys & moisture is never a problem. I don't use upper entrances & overwinter with all lower entrances open. The poly hives were designed to deal with moisture & don't require moisture boards, wood chips etc. Although I use some of my 8 frame woodenware for queen rearing etc., all my bees go into poly hives for winter. I always am amused at people offering "expert" opinions in areas in which they have no real experience.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

rdimanin said:


> I have never had a colony starve in polys & moisture is never a problem.


Did you notice that the starvation & moisture was not presented to be a problem?


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

rdimanin said:


> I have never had a colony starve in polys & moisture is never a problem.


Thank you! The voice of experience!

This still doesn't explain those Russian beeks who have to water their bees with sponges (which is also the voice of experience). But at least, you and Etienne are both doing something different from the Russians, and it's working.

Now I'm trying to figure out why it works for the two of you, but not for those Russians. I will just have to monitor my poly nuc boxes this winter and see if I can figure it out.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> Thank you! The voice of experience!
> 
> This still doesn't explain those Russian beeks who have to water their bees with sponges (which is also the voice of experience). But at least, you and Etienne are both doing something different from the Russians, and it's working.
> 
> Now I'm trying to figure out why it works for the two of you, but not for those Russians. I will just have to monitor my poly nuc boxes this winter and see if I can figure it out.


You need to compare at least:

colony sizes (important!)
ventilation mode
well, the location climate, obviously - how dry/cold or how moist/warm
what kind of honey they winter on - could be a big difference.
See, people have lots of "experience" and but immediately omit their own context (as if unimportant OR as if globally portable). 

For example, "moisture issues" by default mean to many people - too much moisture.
Well that is NOT the issue on hand.
The issue the Russians were having - NOT enough moisture. So, of course - "moisture is never a problem".  It is the lack of it.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

So you can die from drowning AND from thirst? That's just not fair!


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

Oh, I see. When I read "moisture is never a problem," I assumed he meant that he always had enough. Which he probably did, if he read the whole thread.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

In addition to Etienne I went through 4 years of posts by Rick Willams (no 'i' after 'l') from cold part of Canada at Log into Facebook. No upper entrance, very good insulation and he switched to poly hives couple years ago. Humid air in his setup is above Dew Point so humidity != moisture. His posts during winter time are worth reading in my opinion. He is experience , Etienne is science


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> In addition to Etienne I went through 4 years of posts by Rick Willams (no 'i' after 'l') from cold part of Canada at Log into Facebook. No upper entrance, very good insulation and he switched to poly hives couple years ago. Humid air in his setup is above Dew Point so humidity != moisture. His posts during winter time are worth reading in my opinion. He is experience , Etienne is science


I hate Facebook, but people keep bringing this guy up, so he must be worth it. Too bad he's not on YouTube. How long did it take to go through 4 years of posts?


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

GregV said:


> Hey, you should search for Calkal and read about his poly hives.
> He has plenty of recent content and is actually based in WI (maybe even close to you).


Ah-ha! He's only an hour and a half away!


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Sean Govan said:


> I hate Facebook, but people keep bringing this guy up, so he must be worth it. Too bad he's not on YouTube. How long did it take to go through 4 years of posts?


The whole evening. It was worth the time. But you can only read winter posts starting from latest and going back. All is in his answers to questions people ask. See



__ https://www.facebook.com/rick.willams/posts/2730316793700932


as an example.... You have to go to December 1, 2019 post to see questions people ask.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Just to re-iterate, the chemical reaction is as follows:

*C6H12O6 + 6 O2 --> 6 CO2 + 6 H2O + heat* + {LOTS OF WATER 20% by mass}.

What does the bee have on its exterior surface? Is it like humans, skin that loses moisture to the environment, or is it an exoskeleton?

From consuming honey - There's a huge volume of water generated, and some % of that water is required for the bee to maintain it's body condition. In a very very dry environment, they will need to retain more of the excess honey/metabolism water than in a place like the US east coast, which is high high humidity, or in Seattle or a place like that.

In a superior insulated colony, like the apimaye hive or the superior poly hives, or a superior well insulated wooden hive, all of that moisture condenses below the cluster, as it cools and sinks, displaced by warm moist air...

...so the cooler moist air condenses at what is known as the dewpoint, which is not reached above the cluster in a superior insulated colony, but below the cluster, where it likely does not turn into liquid water, but escapes through the screened bottom board, turning into liquid outside of the colony.

....and yet, Etienee's (or poly hive beekeepers who use the white poly hives) hives consume some tiny quantity of honey per winter.

They "lose" the excess water through the bottom, and have no need for liquid water, they get it all (or at least a significant %) metabolically.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

First with regard to a piece of plywood used as a division board at the side of the hive. This creates a microclimate next to the wall of the hive which is a bit cooler than the area closer to the cluster of bees. The microclimate changes the circulation of air inside the hive such that moist air rises above the bees, moves to the division board, then falls down to the floor. I use division boards made of coreplast (plastic) similar to this in my hives. I've seen a benefit to wintering from doing this with a caveat that the southern side of the hive exposed to the sun should not have a follower board. I would be speculating regarding why a follower board prevents moisture on the side of the hive. Ask the bees. They know.

All beekeeping is local. What I say about my climate is not likely to work in Michigan and certainly is not likely to work in Alberta. The climate is too different. Be very careful taking the advice of any beekeeper in a different climate to yours. That said, there are some common standards that can be applied. These were advocated by Farrer about 80 years ago now. He said to winter with large (but not excessively large) healthy colonies of bees with adequate stores and properly prepared for the location they are wintering in. He advocated for communication gaps between frames and having some form of upper entrance, particularly in locations where the lower entrance was likely to be covered in snow. He also said to take winter losses in the fall by which he meant to combine any small colonies to make a colony large enough to make it through winter. I'm quoting this from memory, so may have a bit of it out of context. Go back and read Farrer on wintering to see the original recommendations!

Mobus made insulated hives by gluing together thick sheets of foam board to form a box around a colony of bees. I'm fairly sure he specified what it was made of and how thick. The result was a hive that had no upper entrance and had relatively little heat loss as compared to a wooden hive. He used them for several experiments with small and large colonies. He deliberately combined two large colonies in the fall for one of his experiments. This exacerbated the water balance problem immensely. The result was massive numbers of bees flying out of the hive in the middle of winter when it was too cold to forage. The bees made a massive runway of dead bees on the snow leading away from the hive. When he weighed the bees, he found that they were extremely desiccated. When he asked the question "why are they so dry", the answer was that a large colony of bees in a highly insulated hive did not metabolize enough honey to produce the water they needed to survive. He demonstrated this very effectively.

What about small colonies in super insulated hives? This turns the paradigm around where a colony covering 3 frames when clustered has to metabolize too much honey in a wooden hive, but in a highly insulated hive, they can slow down enough to survive winter. Most of the beekeepers who are successful with highly insulated hives live in very humid climates and/or are wintering relatively small colonies.

I've seen several beekeepers using insulated hives who post about how well their bees make it through winter. I have not yet seen one of them do the due diligence experiments to show that the bees are better off in an insulated hive. (Note, should look up Derek M on the other side of the pond) Mobus did them and published the results. His experiments uncovered the water balance issues created in insulated hives that do not occur in wooden hives. This does not automatically make insulated hives bad. It just means the beekeeper has to manage a little different than those of us who have wooden hives.

Brother Adam trialed insulated boxes around his hives a couple of times. These were just large wooden double wall boxes filled with leaves or perhaps sawdust. He found them extremely damaging to the colonies that were protected by the boxes. The hives did not warm up on an early spring day when temperatures were high enough for a cleansing flight and the bees did not build up properly for the spring flow. Read his book to get the details.

I winter in the southeast with a very humid climate in wooden hives. With this setup, there is a significant problem of moisture in the hive that condenses on the cover and can kill a colony. To avoid this problem, I use a small upper entrance roughly 3/8 inch square or thereabouts. IMO, this is one of the most controversial aspects of wintering with people claiming upper entrances are necessary, are very detrimental, and everything in between. I can only state what I have seen repeatedly over the last 52 years. Upper entrances keep my bees alive.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

With all due respect Fusion power, Alabama does not have a "winter" - that's sort of besides the point.

Insulation is a big deal in zone 5 or lower because they need a huge amount of food to survive, like 80+ pounds of capped honey.

That's unimaginable to southern beekeepers that a colony needs 80 pounds of honey to survive the winter...Poly hives bring that number down to 40 pounds.

_Is there a reference for Brother Adams, Farrer, Mobus ? An above poster couldn't find your previous reference - could you scan a copy of the page you are referring to and post it here?_


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Rdimanim - Yes, I believe that if a bee is getting near the end of it's life, it will try to fly outside the hive to die, not burdening i's sisters with dead body removal.

To be more precise on my statement that "Styrofoam hives are not worth the trouble" --- A properly setup Langstoth hive can have similar success. In our area, top insulation only, no upper entrance, and wind protection seems to be adequate.

Heck, Farrar even wintered bees in Wisconsin without a hive body. Not as successful, but it can be done. 

Crazy Roland


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Totally forgot.
I have a great channel about nothing by foam hives - the real deal.
And we talking a real deal - not dinky nucs - but real deal huge colonies in hives glued from XPS.
This has been going for years and is a very successful operation.
Winter on a cold/humid side; zone 5-ish, near St. Petersburg, RU (Novgorod region to be exact).
Cool and rainy summer. Generally just a humid area.
Of course, this is a Russian channel, the usual gig.
Here you go:


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Greg ...why's he spraying water in his colonies like that?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> Greg ...why's he spraying water in his colonies like that?


Amitraz.
Last run before the winter.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> Totally forgot.


Here is an episode about a large XPS horizontal hive - look inside.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

Fascinating!

Greg, I found a 3 year old thread about bees drinking in winter where you quoted a very interesting fact from _Bee Culture_ magazine: 



> *''''26.9 pounds of water are generated from our 40 pounds of honey*


Source: Bee Culture Magazine, January 1, 2015, Wait, How Much Water? by Frank Linton''''


Which means almost 70% of the honey is/becomes water! WOW, I had no clue!!



Roland said:


> Farrar even wintered bees in Wisconsin without a hive body


Without a hive body?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> Greg, I found a 3 year old thread about bees drinking in winter where you quoted a very interesting fact from _Bee Culture_ magazine:


Indeed.
But what is of concern with the poly hives - is the water accessible or not.
It maybe there and yet not accessible due to the circumstances.

My basement until recently was 70% RH and moldy - but I could not drink that water for the life of me.  
As an example.
I have since bought a dehumidifier - crazy how much water is pulled out of the thin air.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> Without a hive body?


Kind of like this:


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## brewkatz (Oct 26, 2016)

Coincidentally the current Oct. 2021 American Bee Journal has an article by John A. Gaut (EAS Master and an engineer) on page 1141 about this very subject. Titled "The Benefits of Providing Good Hive Insulation but No Upper Entrance in Winter", it covers many of the things that have been argued, discussed, and cussed here. It's a good read for anyone that has a subscription. He mentions Dr. Seely's "water bottle bees" and shared this video - Water bottle bee – Northeast New Jersey Beekeepers Association


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Actually, honey is 20% water, give or take.

40 pounds of honey = 8 pounds of water and 32 pounds of sugar.

[32 pounds of solid honey (no water)]*--->>>>[metabolism]>>>>>>[*18.9 pounds of H2O] + [CO2] + heat. 

How much heat??????

*115,328 BTUs, that's about the equivalent of burning 1 gallon of gasoline, 10 pounds of coal, or 13 pounds of dry hardwood.*

Heat: One pound of pure sugar (no water) produces 3803 kj, which is 3604.549 BTU.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> Brother Adam trialed insulated boxes around his hives a couple of times. These were just large wooden double wall boxes filled with leaves or perhaps sawdust. He found them extremely damaging to the colonies that were protected by the boxes. The hives did not warm up on an early spring day when temperatures were high enough for a cleansing flight and the bees did not build up properly for the spring flow. Read his book to get the details.


Interesting to read about Brother Adam not liking insulated-wall beehives - that's been my experience too, for much the same reasons. Brief (2-3 hour) warm sunny weather-windows sometimes occur during mid-winter which allow clearance flights, but only if the hive walls can warm-up quickly in order to stimulate the bees.

At the risk of boring people (as I've mentioned this before) I run large amounts - 3" expanded polystyrene blocks - of insulation(*) above the hive, uninsulated single walls, and open or semi-open bottoms. I figured this combination out by trial and error, but later found that Ed Clark ('Constructive Beekeeping', 1918) did pretty much the same, in order to create a 'Condenser Beehive' in which excess moisture condenses out on the cooler walls, especially during the night, runs down the painted walls and exits the hive through the Open Mesh Floor. This configuration has been working like a charm now for over a decade, with consistent zero winter losses.
BUT - as someone on here pointed out to me - if this technique was adopted in areas where the winter temperature is continually below zero, then a huge block of ice would build up at the base of the hive ... not so good. 

So - yes indeed, all beekeeping* is* local.
LJ

(*) Having just seen a Russian video (thanks Greg) of a guy who has used far less insulation than myself during trials, maybe I've over-egged the pudding a bit on this one ?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I did a few winters with insulation board on sides and rear of hive bodies but none on the fronts which face basically South. This presents a condensation area around the limited upper entrance and gives the bees a realistic handle on the temperature outside. With only a couple of exceptions my winter survival has been so good it is hard to judge effectiveness of different methods. Unusual ice conditions sure scared me off the proposition of zero upper entrance or ventilation but that was out of the ordinary. Hard sometimes to realistically judge the whole of a different philosophy. Now playing again with ensuring more moisture is available to the bees while still providing good R value. That can easily appear as pulling in different directions!


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

crofter said:


> I did a few winters with insulation board on sides and rear of hive bodies but none on the fronts which face basically South.


What was your top setup?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have been basically some form of shavings box but have thrown in some form of condensation point around an upper entrance. The upper entrance has been getting smaller though. The last three years I have been getting more influenced by the chatter about free moisture starvation so am hedging my bets a bit.  Trying to make a bit more disciplined appraisal this winter. I admire the attention to detail and logging by such operators as Etienne. It takes real talent and an active awareness of our human confirmation bias to weed out the "local conditions factors" and "too small a sample" errors.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

there seem to be a notion here that bees somehow require more than 27 POUNDS of water when they're eating 40 pounds of honey?

The cluster generates over 3 gallons of water....


a 3 pound cluster of bees requires more than 3 GALLONS of water ?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> The cluster generates over 3 gallons of water....


You keep forgetting - NOT entirety of these 3 gallons of water is available for consumption.
Far from it.
Only a fraction of those 3 gallons are available to the bees at the point and at the time when it really counts.
As a matter of fact, nearly none of this water may be available for consumption - it simply escapes in various ways or never condenses in places and at times where bees need it.

Again, I have gallons and gallons of water in my basement right now just as we speak (in the form of vapor).
Can I drink it?
No.
I can totally die of thirst in a moist and moldy basement full of gaseous water.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

"Alabama does not have a "winter" "

The 6 inches of ice and snow that lasted 2 weeks back in February were just a fluke where some of Roland's weather accidentally slipped down here. The weatherman was very angry with that storm as his forecast didn't allow for aberrant snow clouds. Next time I'll remember to yell at the clouds that they are supposed to blow back up north before they do their thing.

More seriously, we don't have winter of the scale found further north, but we definitely have winter.

Bees can fix many of the mistakes beekeepers make.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

...ALL 3 gallons of that water pass through the bees first.

That 3 gallons is metabolic water.

By definition, it's available for consumption - it's within the bees bodies!






Metabolic water - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

e.g., a reference:






Metabolic Water and Desiccation - Nature


THE utilization by the body of ingested food substances and of tissue reserves yields among other things quantities of metabolic water. As the complete combustion of 100 gm. of fat produces about 110 gm. of metabolic water, whereas 100 gm. of carbohydrate yields only 55 gm. of water, fat...




www.nature.com





Go to Download PDF


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> ...ALL 3 gallons of that water pass through the bees first.
> 
> That 3 gallons is metabolic water.
> 
> By definition, it's available for consumption - it's within the bees bodies!


By this logic I don't need to drink because all the water I exhaust from my metabolism is already within my body.
LOL

Metabolic water can not be 100% recycled right back into the same body that just created/exhausted it (because it is in a gas form OR it is in a toxic solution form).
Why do you drink water, username?
Why not just retain ALL water you consume and never drink again?


Human body looses a lot of water just through the lungs and the skin (about 30% of the daily output).
I am not going to bother googling about the bees for the same at this moment - but the logic is the same (significant loss).
What you suggest is that somehow I should capture the gaseous water I breath out and, convert it to liquid on a fly and then use it to make my coffee.
Wow, that would be very self-efficient. 

Water is not accumulated and retained for ever and ever.
The in/out water flow through the live system can only be slowed down, but never stopped.
Water is consumed and exhausted through various outputs.

Once exhausted it can not be easily recaptured at 100% and returned right back into your system.
A live organism is NOT a closed, self-contained system, but rather an open system that depends on critical inputs and creates unavoidable outputs/losses.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Greg, with all due respect, you (or I for that matter) do not have an exoskeleton.

Also - human biology and bee biology is not directly comparable...


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Nectar, humidity, honey bees (Apis mellifera) and varroa in summer: a theoretical thermofluid analysis of the fate of water vapour from honey ripening and its implications on the control of Varroa destructor | Journal of The Royal Society Interface


This theoretical thermofluid analysis investigates the relationships between honey production rate, nectar concentration and the parameters of entrance size, nest thermal conductance, brood nest humidity and the temperatures needed for nectar to honey ...



royalsocietypublishing.org




_ While beekeepers often, in addition to a mesh floor, provision multiple entrances in summer totalling over 80 cm2 [17]; honeybee swarms prefer nests with single entrances of 12 cm2 or smaller [5]. However, water vapour converts back to a liquid by condensation, a process which needs the energy to be removed from the water vapour laden air. The principle of conservation of energy means that the rate of condensation is dependent on the lumped conductance of the nest walls, and the temperature difference between the dew point temperature of the humidity on the inside surface in the condensing zones and the outside air._


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> Greg, with all due respect, you (or I for that matter) do not have an exoskeleton.
> 
> Also - human biology and bee biology is not directly comparable...


No, but much more similar than mammals and plants, to compare.
Importantly because both us and the bees consume O2 and carbs and exhaust CO2 and H2O (this exhausted H2O you can NOT just revert right back - it is lost).

In fact, the humans also recycle some water due to the metabolism (see picture - it says 10% of the water is captured and recycled right back from the life processes).
But the end you and bees still need to drink to compensated for the system losses and inefficiencies!
Closed, self-efficient systems are philosophically impossible.
(Well, that space station up there is an approximation of such closed system - they filter the pee and drink it again, etc; but only an approximation and at very high costs).


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I completely agree with this:

_No, but much more similar than mammals and plants, to compare.
Importantly because both us and the bees consume O2 and carbs and exhaust CO2 and H2O _

But bee exhalation is much much different than humans.

Humans have lungs, and bees have spiracles.

Bee excrement is also much much different.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Since we're posting images now:









Nectar, humidity, honey bees (Apis mellifera) and varroa in summer: a theoretical thermofluid analysis of the fate of water vapour from honey ripening and its implications on the control of Varroa destructor | Journal of The Royal Society Interface


This theoretical thermofluid analysis investigates the relationships between honey production rate, nectar concentration and the parameters of entrance size, nest thermal conductance, brood nest humidity and the temperatures needed for nectar to honey ...



royalsocietypublishing.org


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

A colony of bees will consume between 1 and 3 pounds of honey per month in a wintering colony depending on colony size. Why are we discussing what comes from 40 pounds of honey? That is enough to get a colony all the way through 6 months of winter and still have half of it left over for spring buildup. Don't get me started on Italian bees and how much honey they require. Italians will brood almost all winter which raises their honey consumption significantly.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

...Fusion bees in the north, with winters require between 40-100 pounds of honey... maybe down in Alabama 20 pounds is enough.

_anyways - the whole point of poly hives is that instead of 40-100 pounds, poly hives require half the amount to survive winters (north of the Mason Dixon line). 

We're really digressing with this debate on water - it's interesting, but it's digressing - a minor issue. The elephant in the room is heat._

I believe it was crofter who suggested just not insulating a side of the colony. There ya go - water problem solved.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

username00101 said:


> ...Fusion bees in the north, with winters require between 40-100 pounds of honey... maybe down in Alabama 20 pounds is enough.
> 
> _anyways - the whole point of poly hives is that instead of 40-100 pounds, it cuts the amount of honey in half up in the north. Because if you read the above discussion all those Kilojouls of energy is conserved inside the cavity, mostly.
> 
> ...


Etienne in Yukon uses poly hives made in Finland and Poland and needs only just above 31lb per hive during his long winter... He is a bit further north than Helsinki in Finland. Why not 100lb?


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Y'all keep going.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

username00101 said:


> _ While beekeepers often, in addition to a mesh floor, provision multiple entrances in summer totalling over 80 cm2 [17]; *honeybee swarms prefer nests with single entrances of 12 cm2 or smaller [5].* However, water vapour converts back to a liquid by condensation, a process which needs the energy to be removed from the water vapour laden air. The principle of conservation of energy means that the rate of condensation is dependent on the lumped conductance of the nest walls, and the temperature difference between the dew point temperature of the humidity on the inside surface in the condensing zones and the outside air._


Show me any experimental evidence which has determined a preferential entrance size.

The paper you cite is by Mitchell. I know this guy from way back - he has a degree in physics and is intent on making a a name for himself within the world of beekeeping - but he is NOT a beekeeper, His wife is. He does (or did) have a couple of hives which he built with 4" walls to emulate a tree cavity which, based upon Seeley's observational study of tree nests, Mitchell has unwisely predetermined to be a template upon which beehive designs should be based, on the assumption that bees prefer cavities within trees, rather than man-made cavities. But - no-one (afaik) has ever presented a swarm with the choice of tree cavity or a selection of man-made cavities of various configurations, in order to determine this.

Mitchell writes* theoretical *papers about beekeeping topics, but has never, afaik, ever conducted any experiments himself. This is not science as I understand it.

In that paper. Mitchell cites 3 sources regarding entrance size - two of which are earlier* theoretical *papers by himself, the third is a paper by Seeley. Tom Seeley, likewise, has never (afaik) conducted any experiments to determine a preferential entrance size (or position) - he certainly hadn't last time I swopped emails with him.

Within the paper cited, Mitchell makes a number of assumptions upon which his calculations (which appear impressive, but must be considered worthless unless they have at least some correspondence with real-world observations) are based. Again, this is not science, this is an attempt to* theoretically* prove a predetermined theory.
LJ


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

How do you start an argument between 2 beekeepers? Just say "I winter my bees by.....".



> Show me any experimental evidence which has determined a preferential entrance size.


Didn't Seeley do it by setting up identically configured hives that varied only in entrance size and found that bees preferentially move into hives with @2 inch diameter entrances?

I remember an article in one of the magazines that discussed factors bee swarms prefer when selecting a new home.

1. size approximately as large as a single Langstroth 10 frame deep
2. Height above ground at least 10 feet
3. NOT infested with ants
4. Has been used by bees before
5. Entrance size @2 inches diameter
6. Southern exposure, but not in direct sun


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Fusion_power said:


> Didn't Seeley do it by setting up identically configured hives that varied only in entrance size and found that bees preferentially move into hives with @2 inch diameter entrances?


It's in "Honeybee Democracy." I don't remember for sure if it was 2" but that sounds right and the book is allllllllll the way upstairs right now.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

The other question is whether bees have upper ventilation in natural cavities in the northern cold climates (north of the Mason-Dixon line) or not. 

Do bees choose insulated hive cavities with an upper entrance, a bottom entrance, or both?


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> Didn't Seeley do it by setting up identically configured hives that varied only in entrance size and found that bees preferentially move into hives with @2 inch diameter entrances?
> 
> I remember an article in one of the magazines that discussed factors bee swarms prefer when selecting a new home.
> 
> ...


Curious. I specifically asked him about entrance size and position and he said that cavity size was the only variable which had been *tested by experiment* ...
LJ


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Sean - yes, no hive body, Done at UW Madison, The frames where held in by a skeleton of a hive body, just the edges and corners. 

Fusion Power wrote:
Roland's weather accidentally slipped down here. 

Me - Just sharing the wealth.

If we can winter in a single deep, the bees obviously need less than 40-100 lbs. , so let's drop that narrative.

Crazy Roland.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

You can find research from 1947 that shows bees need 3 pounds of honey per month from October to April. Due diligence required. I can state from personal experience that a small healthy colony in my area needs between 1 and 2 pounds per month. Don't conflate winter honey requirements with spring buildup consumption. In the later stages of buildup, a colony can easily consume 20 to 30 pounds per month.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Roland said:


> If we can winter in a single deep, the bees obviously need less than 40-100 lbs. , so let's drop that narrative.


They do that here, so that is where my confusion starts and grows. One reputable site says I need 90 pounds of honey and then a successful commercial beekeeper not more than 45 min. from me winters in single deeps. What gives?????


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> They do that here, so that is where my confusion starts and grows. One reputable site says I need 90 pounds of honey and then a successful commercial beekeeper not more than 45 min. from me winters in single deeps. What gives?????


Don't Ian Steppler's single deeps weigh 90+ pounds by the time they go in the shed? I think you can fit 90 pounds in a sigle deep, can't you?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

90 lbs of food does NOT fit in a singlr deep. You need space for bees, so almost 40 lbs of food is possible, but not probable.  If you count the weight of a bottom board, excluder , innercover, and telescoping roof, you will be closer to 90 lbs.

Ursa ... I would guess that the commercial beekeeper by you knows how to setup his hives so that they use the least amount of food. 

Even Barry questioned the simplicity of my statement: "Open one window for some fresh air, open two for a breeze. "

Crazy Roland


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Sean Govan said:


> Don't Ian Steppler's single deeps weigh 90+ pounds by the time they go in the shed? I think you can fit 90 pounds in a sigle deep, can't you?


90 pounds of honey or 90 pounds of honey bees wax and frame? I am not sure, but the paper from the Canadian Apiarists says I should have 90 pounds of only honey.

ETA sorry I was writing at the same time as Roland. Thankfully the commercial keeper is our local inspector so I messaged him on FB. I like to try new things and experiment, so I enjoy these discussions, yet, until I am successful I will stick with what works locally and go from there.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

A well filled Langstorth 10 frame deep with 60 to 70 pounds of honey is pretty much normal. Add in the @15 to 20 pounds an average hive with frames and foundation weighs, and you are looking at 90 pounds. This does NOT mean it is properly organized for a wintering colony of bees.

What gives with wintering with 40 to 50 pounds of honey in a northern climate? Better to ask how the beekeeper manages the bees. If they are aggressively managed and if they are in a location with an abundance of spring pollen and nectar, it is easily done. Spring feeding can make up for lack of spring flows if necessary.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Here's a good reference on winter weigh requirements:









How much honey do bees need for winter?


How much honey your bees will need for winter depends on the climate, weather, colony size, type of bee, type of hive, and local conditions.




www.honeybeesuite.com





_I checked dozens of sources this morning and found an amazing amount of agreement on general guidelines. Bees in the southern U.S. may thrive on as little as *40 pounds* (18 kg), bees in the middle states need about *60 pounds* (27 kg), and northern bees may require* 80 or 90* (36-41 kg). Those are average numbers for average years and average hives. What’s average? Another good question._


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

GregV said:


> The nature of the materials themselves (variety of foams) is somehow ignored/overlooked in this entire talk as if insignificant (but it is significant).
> 
> Not only the wicking by wood material has a positive effect.
> 
> ...


Greg,

I helped someone pour a floating slab this morning. It had 2'' XPS foam under the slab and* inside the forms.* It had just rained, and *the vertical foam had massive water drops* which were not rolling down. The vertical surfaces were covered with water drops. I thought of you, but had no time to get a picture. 

By contrast, *the wooden boards of the form had no droplets on them. The drops spread out into a thin film.*

Both surfaces had a huge amount of water on them. Not sure which one had more.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> Greg,
> 
> I helped someone pour a floating slab this morning. It had 2'' XPS foam under the slab and* inside the forms.* It had just rained, and *the vertical foam had massive water drops* which were not rolling down. The vertical surfaces were covered with water drops. I thought of you, but had no time to get a picture.
> 
> ...


OK, then maybe I was wrong about the drops rolling off like from the duck's feathers - this question actually remains open. There is likely more physics to it that I understand.

However, the drops will still only roll down and never up. 
And since the water does not *wet *the foam, the bulk water will not wick upwards from the condensation region.

To compare, the water film on the wood is an indication that the water will *wet *the wood and soak in and will move up some distance - as discussed.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Roland said:


> 90 lbs of food does NOT fit in a singlr deep. You need space for bees, so almost 40 lbs of food is possible, but not probable. If you count the weight of a bottom board, excluder , innercover, and telescoping roof, you will be closer to 90 lbs.
> 
> Ursa ... I would guess that the commercial beekeeper by you knows how to setup his hives so that they use the least amount of food.
> 
> ...


It does not, I agree. The deep frame can hold 7lb of honey. 10x7lb=70lb for the whole box. I use 6 frames over 6 frames hives. The hardware is 40lb. I use handheld luggage scale to find how much honey/sugar I have and if there is a progress during the feeding. I hook the scale to the back of the hive, lift couple millimeters and take the measurement. The mechanical leverage is ~ 2:1 (cenetr of gravity is in the middle). The total of the stores is 2x the measurement minus 40lb for the equipment (how heavy are my bees?). One can do the same experiment for 10 FR deep box.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> Didn't Seeley do it by setting up identically configured hives that varied only in entrance size and found that bees preferentially move into hives with @2 inch diameter entrances?
> 
> I remember an article in one of the magazines that discussed factors bee swarms prefer when selecting a new home.
> 
> ...


None of the above is *based on science* (except #1 - will discuss shortly) - this is an example of beekeeping 'religion': the Gospel according to Seeley. However, prior use, no ants and facing South have certainbly been established over time by countless beekeepers - so no complaint there. Height and entrance data however have been based on an observational study of tree cavities and say nothing about bees having expressed a* preference*, as zero data was collected regarding cavities which the bees did *not* choose within that location. Two such sets of data are required for comparison of course, for any preferential selection to be detected.

#1 is totally erroneous - over the years many beekeepers have viewed this claim as being false, and now it can be proved, for there is a world of difference between these conclusions:
A) Swarms display a marked preference for a 40 litre cavity, and
B) Swarms *emerging from a 40 litre box* display a marked preference for a 40 litre cavity.

More recent research has demonstrated, fairly conclusively, that around 75% of a colony's bees leave as a swarm. I've read the original paper, and have squirreled it away (somewhere), and can't put my hands on it right now. Fortunately however, The Apiarist makes reference to this figure within his pages:
*When a colony swarms about 75% of the worker bees – of all age groups – leave with the queen. *


https://www.theapiarist.org/swarm-prevention/



So - a swarm issues from a 10-frame 40L box, and then shows a preference for a similar sized cavity. Which makes
sense - it's the right size (not too big, or too small) and provides some room for expansion.

But - what happens if a swarm issues from a double 10-frame stack - that's 20 frames, so the swarm will be around 15-frames equivalent in size - and a '15-frame' swarm will *not* fit into a 10-frame cavity

Likewise, a swarm from a nuc-sized box will probably consider a 10-frame equivalent swarm box to be too large.

Seeley's experimental procedure was ok (for a classic single-variable experiment), but it's conclusion however, which has entered beekeeping folk-lore is incomplete and thus highly misleading ... to the point of being essentially false.
LJ


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

We placed pillows above the previously placed poly above the frames/broodnest, nestled w/in a three inch shim yesterday (got to -29 F last night). 

Above that we placed a screened-off Deep, filled half way with shavings (we've been doing this for several years). 

This will be the first Winter our bees will NOT have an upper entrance since 2007. Keeping fingers crossed.

Thanks for all the discussions, vids and opines related to this amazing thread.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

So ... you're like this?

Lid
Shavings
Pillow
Poly (do you mean film?)

.. that seems like a lot of insulation. Having been in Wisconsin in the winter, I can see where that might be needed.  How tall is all of that?


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

drummerboy said:


> We placed pillows above the previously placed poly above the frames/broodnest, nestled w/in a three inch shim yesterday (got to -29 F last night).
> 
> Above that we placed a screened-off Deep, filled half way with shavings (we've been doing this for several years).
> 
> ...


+29F, right? We have 42F in Chicago today morning. -29F happens once or two in 10 years and we are close to WI. -29F=-33C


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

LJ, Since we are dealing with anecdote, Here are a few of mine. Within the last 10 years, I've seen 5 tree colonies where the entrance was at ground level. I saw 1 tree colony where the bees were using an entrance at least 60 feet high and where it had to be above the brood area. Of the trees with ground level entrances, all colonies were using a cavity above the entrance. One time about 40 years ago, I cut a bee tree with the entrance at ground level but the brood area was in a cavity below ground level where the base of the tree had decayed. Size of entrance for all trees/colonies was less than 5 inches diameter. The smallest entrance was about 3 inches diameter. As for why I saw this many tree colonies, a friend was a logger and asked me to help collect the bees he occasionally found.

I stipulate that your statement that larger swarms look for larger nest cavities is probably true to some extent and the same for smaller swarms moving into smaller next cavities. However, there is a minimum size that bees will move into in my experience and I've never seen bees move into a cavity larger than @200 liters of volume. So based on my experience, I can state that height of the entrance does not seem to matter so much to the bees. Size of the entrance seems to have limits where bees won't move in unless the entrance is at least 1 inch diameter but no more than 6 inches diameter. I have seen one tree many years ago where the entrance was over 12 inches diameter, but it was a case where a piece of wood had decayed and fallen away making the entrance larger after the bees took up residence.

Back to the matter of insulated hives, I read through the picture heavy document from Etienne. He was very thorough in most details of beekeeping in a very cold climate. The only significant weaknesses I see in his methods are with regard to water condensation during winter and in his response to an outbreak of nosema ceranae. IMO, he still needs to do some work to mitigate condensation as it is likely the root cause of the nosema outbreak. As with previous discussions of highly insulated hives, my primary concern is around water management, both as condensation, and to meet the colony's water needs.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

LBussy said:


> So ... you're like this?
> 
> Lid
> Shavings
> ...


A Deep is 9 plus inches so there's between 4-6 minimum of shavings, I suppose one could use mediums or shallows with the same effect, we just happen to have a lot of Deeps available since going to 'all mediums' in 2007. We used to place 4 in of rigid foam board inside of Deeps instead, but that stuff is kinda nasty and a lot more expensive than shavings. Been using shavings for several years, exchanging them annually and dumping in the chicken yard, providing Hens with some short lived scratching entertainment. We're using 4 mil plastic in a couple different ways as described/seen herein and w/in the vids. One is getting some foil/bubble stuff. All will get a blanket or pillow above the poly, followed by the Deeps with shavings, some air space (2-3 in. and outer cover). Going into Winter w/ 5 colonies.

Oooops, sorry, yeah it was actually 27F (First 'hard' frost, about a month later than average) this AM, not -27, but that'll come soon enough.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

I once did a cutout in a water meter hole, so completely underground. They had build combs on the underside of the lid.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> I once did a cutout in a water meter hole, so completely underground. They had build combs on the underside of the lid.


Sounds like my first ever cutout.
Hanging under a concrete slab and survived a winter before being found - in Wisconsin.
I theorize this 10 feet deep cellar kept the entire air volume warm enough from the deep ground heat.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Sean Govan said:


> I once did a cutout in a water meter hole, so completely underground. They had build combs on the underside of the lid.



Bees will/do/can occupy the strangest places.

After watching way too many of these vids (NOT) I have a theory that using poly (or any such substrate) above the broodnest (and in place of an inner cover) prevents any kind of attachment by bees. Those using screen above broodnest, followed with plastic apparently have the same effect, no?

Just wondering and wandering.....


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

To summarize:

*A) Just read the first post *- one can skip the rest.
B) Bees make plenty of excessive metabolic water, when the hive is insulated, the water is dealt with by natural forces, and leaves through the bottom, not harming the bees. This is not true in wooden non-insulated hives. There is no peer review literature on winter water requirements - only on summer hyperthermia water requirements.
C) Insulation retains a huge amount of heat, and reduces honey consumption by nearly 50% or more.
D) Many sources agree that the amount of honey required to overwinter in the "chilly" parts of the south is 20-40 pounds, 60 pounds in the "middle" - like Rhode Island or Northern Virginia, and up to 90 pounds in the far north, like the mountains in NY, Vermont or Maine. All of this is for non-insulated colonies - in insulated colonies, that amount is dramatically lower.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

Great discussion! 
I insulate my hives with 3/4" closed cell foam on 3 sides and a wrap around the whole thing. I've also been using quilt boxes for several years. Last year I lost 3/7 hives and am wondering if lack of water was the problem. VanceG has mentioned this as a potential drawback to quilt boxes here in the high desert of Montana for just this reason. I think I'll staple a vapor barrier to the underside of my quilt boxes this year so they stop pulling moisture from the hives but still insulate.

I have upper entrances, 1" holes just below the upper brood box handhold, but I close those off using cardboard, then shove a pencil through which gives me a one bee width hole, sometimes they chew it open, sometimes the propolize it shut. I'll leave that to them but I do like the idea that it provides a place for condensation near the brood nest.

Good stuff, guys, thanks.
Lee


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

@Grins there's numerous possible reasons you lost 3/7 colonies. without you detailing what was done leading up to winter. it's impossible for us to tell you the reason. Maybe take that to a separate thread... 3/7 is poor overwintering success.

- generally speaking, poor varroa management is #1, too much moisture /as is starvation, etc etc.

- again its difficult to say, without you telling us more on a separate thread.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

Four points in this thread have really struck me. I hope Etienne will weigh in on them at some point.

A fellow named Bernhard Mobus did experiments with different cluster sizes in poly hives back in the 90s, comparing which size of cluster got more dehydrated. It seems that large clusters in an insulated cavity suffer from thirst, because not enough condensation occurs for them to meet their water needs (perhaps because they need to metabolize less honey *per bee* to stay warm). He weighed individual bees from different size clusters to show that bees from the larger clusters died dessicated. GregV posted a video of a Russian commercial beek who actually had to put wet sponges on his large clusters after a hard freeze to give them something to drink, because they heated the poly boxes so much.
There were 3 different theories on the plywood dummy boards that Etienne put in his hives, and on the manner in which they prevent dead bees along the walls: (a) they absorb the condensation as it forms, preventing the bees from getting wet; (b) the dew point moves to the back of the board, so the condensation occurs between the board and the poly, preventing the bees from getting wet; (c) the bees were thirsty from lack of condensation on the poly, so they had to go too close to the hive entrance to get water, and got too cold to come back to the cluster. Adding the board somehow creates a cooler area where condensation occurs near the cluster, so they don't have to go as far, and they can make it back before getting too cold.
When we find dead wet bees, they weren't necessarily killed by condensation. Dead bees may be wet because, after death, they freeze and their internal organs rupture. Then when they thaw, their body fluids leak everywhere, causing them to be wet--even if they died in a completely dry environment.
It may actually be very rare for bees to die from having condensation drip on them, because the area directly above the cluster will be warmer than any other part of the ceiling. So the dew point would occur on the ceiling AROUND the cluster
There is not enough literature on bees NEEDING water (to drink) in winter in insulated hives. Perhaps Etienne might get data on this in the future? He could test Bernhard Mobus's theory in the Yukon.


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## Earthboy (May 16, 2007)

Sean Govan said:


> I once did a cutout in a water meter hole, so completely underground. They had build combs on the underside of the lid.






























Excellent insulation underground.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> To summarize:
> 
> *A) Just read the first post *- one can skip the rest.


LOL.
But to see your point one must somehow read all way to the post #124.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

username00101 said:


> @Grins there's numerous possible reasons you lost 3/7 colonies. without you detailing what was done leading up to winter. it's impossible for us to tell you the reason. Maybe take that to a separate thread... 3/7 is poor overwintering success.
> 
> - generally speaking, poor varroa management is #1, too much moisture /as is starvation, etc etc.
> 
> - again its difficult to say, without you telling us more on a separate thread.


Agreed, it is high and almost exactly what the rest of Montana beekeepers lost, 40%. Rest assured, steps are being implemented to improve that number. 
Lee


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

Sean Govan said:


> I once did a cutout in a water meter hole, so completely underground. They had build combs on the underside of the lid.


The funny thing was that the name of the family was "Combs."


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I worked with a guy named Broom several years ago, it was hilarious to tell him to grab a broom and sweep up at the end of the day.

There is a lot to be gleaned from this thread. Contrary to some opinions, I think beekeepers are an eclectic lot who can study something and make up their own minds. I am of the opinion that highly insulated hives will be adopted heavily over the next few years and would feel a lot better about them if someone took the time to find out whether bees need a water source in cold weather.

I pulled out the ABC article by Mobus and re-read it start to finish. He did his experiments in 1974, 1975, and 1976. His bees were managed for honey production during the summer and then were prepped for winter. In some cases, he made super colonies by joining two large colonies for winter.

He observed brood rearing during winter and found that bees tend to produce palm sized patches of brood erratically all winter. His colonies all had brief broodless periods. Some colonies had 2 or 3 broodless periods before starting buildup for spring. Inspections were done on days above @60 degrees F when the bees could fly if necessary. He had inspection days roughly every 4 to 5 weeks all winter. There are climatic implications in this, but I am not going to evaluate them now. He showed a strong positive correlation between brood rearing and hive weight loss during winter, in other words, brood rearing drives heavy consumption of winter stores.

He describes making "super colonies" by uniting 2 strong colonies late in the fall. Such colonies foraged heavily for water late in the fall, then after a cold spell, came out en-masse with massive, disastrous results. Bees that died had empty guts and were severely under-weight. He tracked this down to lack of water in the over-size winter cluster.

In the August article, he describes the wintering setup including how he devised super insulated boxes. He describes putting a colony on an accurate charting scale and collecting the charts monthly showing very precise winter weight losses. He calculated honey consumption as 1.0 to 1.5 mg per bee per day which was extraordinarily low over a period of 126 days. Note that this low honey consumption was in a highly insulated hive. He showed that the colony involved must NOT have reared brood during that interval as it would have been impossible given the low weight loss. He gives proof that bees in the center of a cluster are "idling" while bees at the outer periphery of the cluster are actively generating heat. This is contrary to most published wisdom up to that point and totally counter to existing published information. One very clear observation is that bees directly respond to their individual temperature in producing heat. Cold bees make heat. Warm bees in the center of the cluster do not or at best make minimal amounts of heat. Bees in the center of the cluster become water depleted and move to the outer shell so they can metabolize more honey and therefore get a "drink" of water. This is where super insulated hives interfere with the process. Bees that are warm do not need to metabolize honey and therefore become water depleted leading to massive flights on sub-optimum (read that as TOO COLD) flight days.

One figure he states that I have not seen elsewhere is that 60% of metabolized sugar turns into water by weight. Remember that honey is normally 15 to 18 percent water as stored for winter so this suggests the amounts of water produced from honey being bandied in this thread are a tad low. I would like to explore this more later.

Part of the article is devoted to findings by Jeffree in the 1950's that showed there is an optimum size cluster for winter. Mobus shows excellent support for this with large clusters that become water depleted and small clusters that become filled with waste from having to metabolize too much honey to keep warm. From his description, this optimum size cluster is 10,000 to 15,000 bees, or about 3 to 5 pounds. I have to interject that there are climate effects involved in this as an optimum cluster for winter here where I live is smaller with 2 to 3 pounds of bees. Jeffree documented that the optimum cluster is climate dependent so this is covered in the article.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> Mobus shows excellent support for this with large clusters that become water depleted and small clusters that become filled with waste from having to metabolize too much honey to keep warm.


Which is consistent with this picture.
Well documented but yet counter-intuitive fact where overly large colonies use more honey per a bee-unit vs. the mid-range colonies.
And this was documented way BEFORE any super-insulated foam hives were introduced.
So the super-insulated hives simply shift the curve *to the left* (on this picture).

Then logically, again, the water depleted cluster consumers more honey trying to fight the thirst, but eventually they simply need to drink.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

Fusion, that's powerful. Your post deserves 20 thumbs up.



Fusion_power said:


> Bees that died had empty guts


THAT is significant!



Fusion_power said:


> after a cold spell, came out en-masse with massive, disastrous results


"After a cold spell." It seems that it's always after a cold spell! Same as for the Russian beekeepers who had to water their bees after a cold spell! The amount of moisture in very cold air is less than the amount of moisture in air that is only somewhat cold, so the dew point of the colony's warm air drops dramatically--causing a lack of condensation!



Fusion_power said:


> I would like to explore this more later.


Please do, and do share your findings.



Fusion_power said:


> 1.0 to 1.5 mg per bee per day


Another little nugget.



Fusion_power said:


> Cold bees make heat. Warm bees in the center of the cluster do not or at best make minimal amounts of heat. Bees in the center of the cluster become water depleted and move to the outer shell so they can metabolize more honey and therefore get a "drink" of water.


A BIG nugget.



Fusion_power said:


> Part of the article is devoted to findings by Jeffree in the 1950's that showed there is an optimum size cluster for winter. Mobus shows excellent support for this with large clusters that become water depleted and small clusters that become filled with waste from having to metabolize too much honey to keep warm. From his description, this optimum size cluster is 10,000 to 15,000 bees, or about 3 to 5 pounds.


So... Big clusters tend get thirsty, and little clusters tend to need frequent bathroom breaks.


There is so much to think about here that I will have to come back to it several times and meditate on it.

Same for several other parts of this thread... there's just too much to think about all at once. It's information overload (for me at least).


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

GregV said:


> Which is consistent with this picture.
> Well documented but yet counter-intuitive fact where overly large colonies use more honey per a bee-unit vs. the mid-range colonies.
> And this was documented way BEFORE any super-insulated foam hives were introduced.
> So the super-insulated hives simply shift the curve *to the left* (on this picture).
> ...


This again is mind blowing for me.

So small colonies eat lots of honey per bee, because they're burning calories to keep warm.

Large colonies eat lots of honey per bee, because they're trying to satisfy their thirst.

Colonies with 12-ish seams of bees have the least of both problems... but do they always?

Question for Greg and Fusion: While we're looking at consumption per bee, do you not think that the size of the cavity would matter just as much as the size of the colony?

Surely a 5-frame colony in a 5-frame box needs less honey per bee than a 5-frame colony in a 10-frame box?

This is consistent with Etienne's observation that *the size of his cavity MUST be proportional to the size of his colony, or the colony will die.*

I can't recall for sure, but I think he also said his small colonies wintered slightly better than his large colonies.

My 5-frame nucs in highly insulated boxes were foraging for water like crazy in the cool weather this fall.

So Greg: what size cavities were used to produce the chart you showed us?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> So Greg: what size cavities were used to produce the chart you showed us?


I imagine a common Dadant setup where the appropriately sized cluster is placed onto the number of needed frames in a single tier and restricted by a dummy frame(s).
Saying this from just being familiar with the common ways used to overwinter in the "Russian space".
I posted enough pictures/videos of that.
Those particular setups do NOT favor the smaller clusters (unlike the modern foam hives).

But honestly unsure - the source does not say where they got this information and how it was obtained.
But the book authors are well qualified to not trust them.

Here is the original source - a standard beekeeping manual for 2-year colleges; pages 220-221 talk about it.
Of note - they discuss the weak colony phenomenon - the same logic as we think.
However they don't discuss the overly strong colony phenomenon (I imagine they simply don't have the information about the higher honey usage).
They just resort to saying about apparent optimal "sweet spot" in the colony sizing - not too small and not too large (exact numbers to depend on the location, bee breed, etc)


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

@Fusion_power it'd be great if you could actually cite a reference.

I would caution readers on taking anything @Fusion_power is writing too seriously until there's a reference we can read for ourselves.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Here's an ABJ Archive search, could you please let us know exactly where your references are, @Fusion_power ???









American Bee Journal December 2022 Vol. 162 No. 12






bluetoad.com









__





American Bee Journal


Digitized content from the collections of Cornell University Library




digital.library.cornell.edu


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

In post #132, Fusion Power wrote:
One figure he states that I have not seen elsewhere is that 60% of metabolized sugar turns into water by weight. 

Me: Is that person trying to say that 60 percent of the sugars are eaten for the water content, and any excess energy is wasted?

Actualy, most all that Fussion Power has writen is common knowledge to me, nothing to my knowledge is unsubtatiated bu science.

Crazy Roland


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

The entire point of our discussion is that not much of what @Fusion_power writes is common knowledge. Much of this is NOT studied, and currently all we have are some mysterious dates and names without a citation for readers to view for themselves.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I gave a references 2 or 3 times already in this thread. I can't help if you don't have access and I can't help that you have not read carefully what I already posted. It does not agree with your worldview. I have the original ABJ from 1998. So to repeat, ABJ from 1998 July and August issues with articles by Bernhard Mobus. While you are at it, pull up the December 1943 Gleanings and read the wintering article by Edwin Anderson. Both are eye opening!

As for trusting things written, I encourage each person reading this to do their due diligence. I don't have an axe to grind. I do NOT accept the human applied wisdom that insulated hives are always better under all circumstances. Bernhard Mobus had trouble believing what he found because it did not agree with conventional wisdom. But he was an extremely inquisitive beekeeper and bee inspector at the time so he had the gumption to call out the "experts" and state exactly what the bees did and what he found as a result. Do us both a favor and read the articles before implying someone else is bricklining.

Please note that I strongly agree that insulated hives should be considered by any northern climate beekeeper today. What I disagree with is the me-too attitude of people saying there are no problems with using them instead of wooden hives. If you read Mobus' articles, you will see that he suggests the problem of water availability can occur in a wooden hive just as in an insulated hive. The key is size of the wintering cluster and how much heat the bees have to generate in their environment. Insulated hives move the cluster size down quite a bit for having problems with water. He - and others - pointed out problems with water availability and with clusters not opening up on days warm enough for cleansing flights. These are serious concerns when it comes to wintering bees!

Wintering work was done by Anderson published in the December 1943 issue of Gleanings, By Mobus in the 1998 ABJ July and August issues, by Jeffree in the 1950's, and by Farrer in the 1930's to 1950's to name a few. I have several of these in my bee books which go back to 1920 with a few into the 1880's. I've kept bees for 52 years now and consider myself to know a lot less about bees than I once thought I did. It is always best to ask the bees what they think when it comes to bee matters.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Roland, re the 60% of sugar by weight is converted to water, this is a chemical reaction so it has relevance from the perspective that bees metabolize sugar therefore if they metabolize 1 pound of sugar, they will release .6 pounds of water. I question the accuracy and wanted to dig out my chemistry books and determine if it is accurate. He may be 100% correct, I'm just being a stickler for making sure. If you convert this to chemical reactions, C6H12O6 (common sugar such as fructose and glucose) plus 6 O2 (oxygen molecules we breathe) yields 6 C02 and 6 H2O. This formula has been repeated several times in this thread. Breaking the hydrogen bonds in the sugar molecule releases a hefty amount of energy which the bees use for flying, foraging, generating heat, etc.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

There's one aspect of Etienne's system that didn't get much attention in this thread, including my original post. It's what he does to prevent suffocation following heavy snowfall, since he doesn't have upper entrances. As best I can gather, he does two things:

He leans plywood against the entrance to prevent snow accumulation,
He has screened bottom boards, which he leaves open all winter.
This seems to be a very important aspect of his system, judging from the number of members whose colonies have asphyxiated after they tried ditching their upper entrances. There's no less than 3 in this two month old thread:



crofter said:


> I had the experience GG mentions with the lower entrance filled with dense wet snow then hard freeze followed. Zero upper entrance for a first ( and last ) experiment with no upper opening of any sort. One of 6 survived and one was queenless, the others all dead in a dump on the bottom board. If I had got around to shovelling them out again immediately I am sure they would have been OK., but I was down for hernia surgery.





calkal said:


> I have had a few of the entrances freeze shut last year also and I did lose probably 5 or 6 hives out of 240.
> Bummed me out thoroughly to see big beautiful colonies suffocate so I think I worked out a new plan to hopefully avoid that.





Gray Goose said:


> I had the same lost 6 of 10 hives.
> 2 were facing a different way, the storm blew a 4X4 piece of plywood into the front of 2 hives and blocked the snow, the other 6 all died due to the entrance having 3 inches of frozen slush on it.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Sean Govan said:


> So... Big clusters tend get thirsty, and little clusters tend to need frequent bathroom breaks.


Best one sentence summary I have seen on Beesource. You should set it as your signature...

GregV brought up hydrophobic verses hydrophilic materials in post #48. Seems to me that beeks who paint, linseed oil, or wax dip inside hives will be changing the wood from the former toward the later. Is this a concern? I'm in the south so imagine it would be more so further north. Note: I do not paint inside, do currently linseed oil inside and plan to wax dip in the future.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Going back to insulated hive and the cluster size... When I was a child back in Poland my father had 6 hives of type called Ul Warszawski Zwykły. This type had 16 frames like Lang medium but rotated 90deg. They were ~9in wide and ~17in toll. The hive made by my dad was double walled with styrofoam between the walls. In summer there were 2 shallow suppers on the top of those frames and in winter space between frames was tightly filled with 1/4inx1/4in pieces of wood and suppers replaced with the pillow. So the hive had no upper ventilation and was well insulated. Before winter my dad removed all frames not occupied by broodnest and inserted a 3-4in thick follower made of a straw. He owerwintered bees on 6-7 frames. The cluster diameter was close to the frame witdh and the depth of 6 frames. The upper 2/3 of the frame was capped sugar/honey. The cluster could go only up during winter because its diameter was close to frame width. Many Polish beekeepers say that this is the best hive to overwinter bees in Poland, specially for unexperienced beekeepers. Polish company Lysoń makes a poly version of Ul Warszawski Zwykły. Warsaw is as far north as Calgary, BTW.


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> GregV brought up hydrophobic verses hydrophilic materials in post #48.


Take a board and a piece of hydrophobic something (like scrap styrofoam), lean them both as vertically as possible on the side of your house, and splash some water on them. I observed this yesterday on a construction site after rain: the water collects on both types of vertical surfaces. Hydrophilic, it spreads out; hydrophobic, it beads up into large drops.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Fusion_power said:


> So to repeat, ABJ from 1998 July and August issues with articles by Bernhard Mobus.


Can anyone tell me where I might find a copy of these? I registered for the ABJ online (as well as paper) and cannot go back that far. WOuld love to read those articles.



Fusion_power said:


> C6H12O6 (common sugar such as fructose and glucose) plus 6 O2 (oxygen molecules we breathe) yields 6 C02 and 6 H2O.


And here's how you figure out the rest:

The molecular weight of glucose (and fructose) is 180.16.
The molecular weight of O2 is 32.
A molecule of glucose/fructose (180.16) and six molecules of O2 (192) add up to *372.18 mol*.
The molecular weight of CO2 is 44.01.
The molecular weight of H2O is 18.02.
Six molecules of CO2 (264.06) and six molecules of H20 (108.12) add up to *372.18 mol*.
So we can see the equation is balanced (372.18 == 372.18.) Since it is balanced, we can figure the glucose is 48% by weight of the components of the reaction. Or, for every pound of honey consumed, the bees need 1.06 pounds of O2.

In case you are curious, that's 12.08 cu/ft, but since the atmosphere is ~20.03% O2, that means the bees will power through _at least_ 60 cubic feet of air (a lot more since they don't extract all the O2 from the air) to process that pound. Humans absorb about 2% of the volume of the atmosphere's oxygen with each breath, so if we were talking humans, that would be over 3,000 cu/ft of respiration air! So if your bees are consuming 40# over the winter (let's say 6 months) that's 690 cu/ft per day, 29 cubic feet per hour, 0.48 cubic feet per minute. Did I do this math right? That's pretty freaking interesting if so.

The standard free energy change to create the sugar in the plant (photosynthesis) is +2870 kJ/mole. Since oxidation (burning the sugar in a cell) is not spontaneous and instead takes place via glycolysis, the cytochrome pathway, and the Krebs cycle, we don't get all of that energy back out. This is an even longer discussion but all we have to remember is it's not "free" and the process to use the sugar is not the reverse of photosynthesis. We get between 44% and 66% efficiency, so let's say 55%. Therefore we get -1578.5 kJ/mole of energy (heat) evolving from the process.

A pound of glucose will result in the generation of 0.598 lbs of water, but a pound of honey is not a pound of glucose. If honey is 15% - 18% water, let's take 16.5% water as our middle ground. Then a pound of honey is 0.165 lbs of water and 0.835 glucose (let's keep it simple and assume the rest is glucose). That 0.835 lbs of glucose will result in 0.499 lbs of water from oxidation. Add back in the water content of the honey and you are now at 0.66 lbs.

EDIT: I fixed the above water calculation after Fusion_power pointed out my rookie move.

Going back to the -1578.5 kJ/mole of energy we evolve and factoring in the glucose content of the honey (83.5%) we are now at -1318.0475 kJ/mole of energy for the honey. For a pound of honey, we're now at -597857 kJ or the equivalent of 166071 watt/hours of energy!

My math teachers would laugh at me now - I am sure I transposed something somewhere.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Sean Govan said:


> Take a board and a piece of hydrophobic something (like scrap styrofoam), lean them both as vertically as possible on the side of your house, and splash some water on them. I observed this yesterday on a construction site after rain: the water collects on both types of vertical surfaces. Hydrophilic, it spreads out; hydrophobic, it beads up into large drops.


A caution here that we could easily be mistaken by such a simple test due to surface treatments that do not reflect the bulk of the interior. waxes, oils, talc and other mineral dusts that serve as parting agents, anti statics etc. Some foams can be either open cell or closed cell from the same nominal material but different process.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

And I think assuming the bees will not liberally apply propolis to the surfaces would be a naive assumption. If they had time over the summer of course.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

see below.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Understanding Colony Buildup and Decline: Part 13a - The Physics of the Winter Cluster - Scientific Beekeeping


Understanding Colony Buildup and Decline Part 13a The Physics of the Winter Cluster Randy Oliver ScientificBeekeeping.com First published in ABJ July 2016 Updated in blue: 21 March 2019 In cold-winter locales, the temperature becomes too cool for workers to forage, and there is no nectar or...




scientificbeekeeping.com


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Thank you Lbussy, I was waiting until this weekend to dig through the box of books in my closet for a chemistry textbook.

This is a direct quote from Mobus' article ABJ page 590: "applying plain chemistry, amounts to .6 g water for every 1 g of glucose converted to heat energy by oxidation". As I stated, that sounded suspiciously high so I wanted to verify accuracy. Please double check your figure of .29 pounds of water per pound of glucose. I may be missing something, but I came up with 40.94% based on:

The molecular weight of CO2 is 44.01.
The molecular weight of H2O is 18.02.
Add the two together to get 62.03
Divide 18.02 by 62.03 to get .29 (this is a percentage)
now we know 1 pound of sugar was metabolized and it took 1.06 pounds of oxygen to do it
So we have 2.06 pounds of inputs. Now multiply 2.06 X .29 and you get .598 (rounds up to .6) pounds of water produced from metabolizing a pound of sugar.

I picked his article apart line by line yesterday looking for any errors including methods and setup. Now I see that 1 g of glucose will indeed produce .6 pounds of water.

It is amazing how much energy can be stored in a simple carbon compound like sugar.

Edit: wanted to add that your figures highlight the elephant in the outhouse. The volume of air bees need per hour to keep warm is mind blowing. What happens if they can't circulate air to get oxygen due to anything blocking off the hive entrance?


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

Fusion_power said:


> The volume of air bees need per hour to keep warm is mind blowing. What happens if they can't circulate air to get oxygen due to anything blocking off the hive entrance?


Fusion (or anyone else who's good at chemistry), would you please quantify the amount of air, in terms of volume of air per pound of honey? This will be very useful to anyone who is trying to understand the bees' need for ventilation in winter.

Example: the bees need x cubic feet of 0° air to metabolize 1 pound of honey. They need x cubic feet of 32° air to metabolize 1 pound of honey.

Then we can get an idea of cubic feet per minute for a cluster that eats 3 lbs/month, and for a cluster that eats 20 lbs/month.

I guess in April they must need many times the amount of oxygen that they need in December.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Very interesting math with regards to the volume of air.

In an inferior thin walled wooden hive, bees require some 60-80 or even 90 pounds of honey to survive a winter north of the Mason Dixon Line, as per the below references.








How much honey do bees need for winter?


How much honey your bees will need for winter depends on the climate, weather, colony size, type of bee, type of hive, and local conditions.




www.honeybeesuite.com







https://pollinator.cals.cornell.edu/sites/pollinator.cals.cornell.edu/files/shared/documents/Wintering%20Bees%20in%20Cold%20Climates_accessible1.pdf



That amount of honey consumption in Northern Winters in poly hives is reduced by half, or even as much as 2/3...that's a remarkable reduction, and thus the bees will have a proportionate decline in air requirements.


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## yukonhoneybees (Oct 23, 2021)

Ok... I just came back from a week trip. Sean warned me how long the thread had become. I guess my winters are closer to 8 months than 6 

On the pine board I use on the side walls, it is likely a combination of the dew point shifting behind them and the absorption of condensate by the wood. The reason I use screen bottom boards is to manage the large amounts of condensation that will accumulate at the bottom of the hive if I don't. I used to insulate below the colony but always ended up having to chip blocks of ice below each colony. You will also notice my south walls have 2/3rd less insulation than the rest of the hive walls. This causes the condensation to form higher up on that wall and "flow" down and eventually out through the screen board. In colonies without slatted racks (an the front board) you can see icicles from. Now the dead bees are dry on the bottom board and the side walls. Bees seem to create a ventilation channel along the south wall where condensation will occur thus giving bees all the water they need. The center of the colony is at 20-25C at 60 to 70 %RH. The side walls are typically (sensor ~3/4" from side are at 80-90%RH ~10C or colder during deep freezes. Like I mentioned before a smaller encolsure with large cluster is more thermally efficient than a large cluster in a double. The challenge is that the mortality rate of bees goes exponential once Ts dropped below 5C (daily high). Many never get to see what their winter cluster really looks like. My last winter losses were in 2017 due to Nosema and honeydew and made worse by me trialing top entrances.

On Mobus, I have read all his material and agree with most of his observations. I read his material several years ago... CO2 is not an issue from a theoritical perspective (predicted natural ventilation). The rate of natural ventilation increases proportionally as the outside temperature drops which likely matches the slight increase in CO2 (one of the byproducts of honey consumption). In a thermally stable enclosures, I believe the bees will be better able to balance and maintain optimal CO2 levels to manage their torpor state.

I have only read the first 2 pages so far ...

Etienne T


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Bees have a base metabolic rate that has to be considered. I'll do some guessing, but that is all it is. Start with the need for a minimum of 60 cubic feet of air to metabolize a pound of honey. Bees are more efficient than humans extracting oxygen from air. I did not search very far, but only saw one estimate that they are 20% efficient which means 300 cubic feet of air per pound of honey metabolized. In round figures, this probably works out to around 1000 cubic feet of air per month to metabolize 3 pounds of honey. Given that a Langstroth hive full of bees and honey has available volume of about 1 cubic foot, this suggests they have to completely exchange the air in the hive about 30 times per day. As spring brood rearing kicks in, that would have to go up considerably.

Good to see you posting here Etienne!

I now see resolution of 2 things that were bothering me. That you use less insulation on the southern side of the hive suggests the bees will be able to have a cleansing flight any time external temperatures permit. That is a huge positive. The other is carbon dioxide accumulation. If you maintain an open bottom, and given that CO2 is heavier than air, as the used air in the hive flows upward due to heat and cools as it meets the side of the hive, it should then flow out the bottom of the hive and be replaced by fresh air. That solves the ventilation problem.

I wonder, have you tried to find a way to make water available to the cluster in winter? The reason for asking is if the bees take up water, that is a sure sign they did not produce enough from metabolism.

Also of interest, have you tried any type of hive heater to take some of the load off of the bees? A beekeeper in Finland uses aquarium heaters set to about 7 degrees C with some success.


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

ursa_minor said:


> That has been my question as well in all of this. Dead bees in the snow is considered normal and good up here but sometimes the amount can be tremendous and spread for a long distance. If one can rule out mites or disease, then what could possibly be the cause? Do bees wait to die until the weather warms, or do winter bees normally die in those large amounts on any given day, or are they foolish and stray too far from the opening and get cold.
> 
> I wonder if on warmer days when they come out to rest on the landing board if a little moisture place there would be used at all?


On dead bees,,, they will die out for multiple reasons, in cold places with no cleansing flights you tend to see bees die very close to the front of each colony or on the bottom board. Another cause of death is metabolic burnout (aged out heater bees). another is outer mantle (lower section of hemispherical cluster in my case) bees that get chilled during cold snaps and are unable to warm up/move back into warm cluster. I lean a 2'x3' piece of scrap plywood infront of each of my hives to protect the lower entrance from the elements (wind, snow) and prevent bees from going on false cleanses. This actually concentrates the dead bees in front of colony. Colonies with high winter mortality (typically with Nosema) have the hardest time in spring. I periodically test 25 dead bees in front of each colony for Nosema and other interesting gut content....

Etienne T


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

jtgoral said:


> Etienne in Yukon uses poly hives made in Finland and Poland and needs only just above 31lb per hive during his long winter... He is a bit further north than Helsinki in Finland. Why not 100lb?


My singles consume about 30lbs from September (mid) to late April. my doubles are in the 50-60lb range. It is pure thermodynamics (physics) and energy conservation at its best by the bees. During our cold snap last year ~4 weeks of -30C to -50C, the bee cluster was exposed to -5C to 5C (taken from the sensor below the cluster) which according to Southwick is the sweet spot for metabolic efficiencies in winter honey bees. The Charts below shows the estimated honey consumption just for heat loss (converting heat loss to honey energy) in a wooden colony in Richmond Virginia. The time frame with the red line is where the colony is cluster driven and the temperature inside outside the cluster is just slightly above ambient. The Southwick chart describes the x axis as the ambient temperature. This is true only for wooden colonies. In a poly, this relationship is not true. It should instead say ("cluster exposure temperature"). during my 7.5 month winter at Ts average of -15C (low of -48C and high of 5C) the exposure temperature was between 0 and 10C ~95% of the time. Bees are also able to easily heat up interior of colony. I recorded 3 heating events during the cold snap where the bees easily heated up the interior to I guessing move around and lower the cold stress. You will notice that even at -45C the colony is in an loose cluster.

The green line area shows a 3 to 4 time increase in enclosure heat loss once broodrearing starts. At this point the enclosure becomes the main survival mechanism. In my poly setup, the enclosure is the main survival mechanism 95% of the time only at temps of <-40C does the cluster actually get exposed to -15C temps. Here is a thermal video taken at -10C... attached the ir camera and shot video upwards through the slatted rack towards the cluster.


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

Sean Govan said:


> Don't Ian Steppler's single deeps weigh 90+ pounds by the time they go in the shed? I think you can fit 90 pounds in a sigle deep, can't you?


On the honey front, I am for 60lbs "all in" per brood box for overwintering and heavy single might weigh 75lbs. I do my feeding in late summer early fall cause the bees take it in easily. I don't feed much in spring as most colonies will have ~50% of there store left over. Heavy frames of honey are not just for food, but make incredible thermal buffers (collecting and releasing heat). In wooden hives this does not really occur as the heat is lost before it can bee collected. It also makes wonderful condensing surfaces, at a honeyframe that was recently 20C (in 60-70 %RH) and let it slowly cool to 10C and the bees will get all the water they need. Those heating events described previously might also be related to superheating the stores and then letting them cool to generate condensation.

Last thing, I never harvest any frames from my lower boxes and will rarely inspect them after late August. I start moving drawn honey frames down and to the outer positions from late May to June so that the bottom boxes are winter ready very early in the season and most of the fall feeding goes to the upper box.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Fusion_power said:


> Please double check your figure of .29 pounds of water per pound of glucose. I may be missing something, but I came up with 40.94% based on:
> 
> The molecular weight of CO2 is 44.01.
> The molecular weight of H2O is 18.02.
> ...


Aha, that's where I went sideways. Water comprises 29% of the product, and I failed to figure in the total weight of the reactants. Rookie move! 

I edited my post.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

yukonhoneybees said:


> Ok... I just came back from a week trip.


Etienne:

Welcome to Beesource- we will look forward to your contributions here on the forum.

Russ


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Fusion_power said:


> Good to see you posting here Etienne!


Good to see you posting again on here, FP!


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

@Yukon Bees

What is the R value of the insulation on the colonies, approximately?

thank you for your detailed responses - and for sharing this information publicly.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Sean Govan said:


> The point is that you can't just plug your upper entrance, put an extra layer of foam on top, and GUARANTEE that condensation won't happen above the bees. The only way to GUARANTEE that condensation happens below the bees and not above, is to GUARANTEE that the ceiling never gets colder than the dew point of the bees' breath.


And therein lies the conundrum for a new beekeeper, how would I know what is the dew point of the bees' breath and how to make sure the ceiling never gets colder than that?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Keep in mind where @Yukon Bees in comparison to the rest of Canada.









Yukon Territory Agricultural zone


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I took an hour to read "the quest for the perfect hive" which is linked earlier in this thread. I have to confess to being disappointed. The author did an excellent job of documenting hive development to date but seems to have little understanding of how many of the hives work. The thing that bothered me most is that there was no discussion of flaws, limitations, and weaknesses of current industry standard hives. Surely he could have stated a few of the Langstroth hive's design problems. I mean, after all, bee space is bee space so why is a Langstroth hive 9 5/8 inches deep when frames are 9 1/8 inches? I could point out a dozen more many of which have been addressed over the years, but the fixes never took hold.

When is a fixed comb hive the best option?
When is a topbar hive a good choice?
When is a horizontal hive with frames a really good choice?
When is a vertical stackable hive with frames the best choice?
And ultimately, what could we as beekeepers do to improve our beehives?


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

username00101 said:


> Keep in mind where @Yukon Bees in comparison to the rest of Canada.


They are much colder in the Yukon in comparison to me in zone 2 Sask. Still, we have had days of -50C, although not often. We also can get a couple weeks of -35C to-42C . It is not just how low the temperatures go but how long they stay there. Hitting -40C at night but warming up to -25C during the day is different than hitting -40C and hovering around that point for multiple days.

The insulation and ventilation interest me in regards to the bees ability to survive our brutal winters. I had a swarm of bees that lived until it warmed in late March. They set up shop in a unheated shed wall with multiple gaps. The only insulation from the cold was a pathetic attempt by me to prop a 2" piece of foam insulation against the outer wall, the inner one had none and with no door on the shed there was not much protection from either side. I assume they died of mites, but it could have been starvation or cold, yet they still had a fairly large cluster emerge for a cleansing flight on March 4, so many had obviously survived the cold.

ETA: I will also add that they were not insulated from above, the ceiling also had no insulation.


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

username00101 said:


> @Yukon Bees
> 
> What is the R value of the insulation on the colonies, approximately?
> 
> thank you for your detailed responses - and for sharing this information publicly.


My front wall is about R10, the back wall is R20 and the side walls are >R20 depending if it shared with another colony or in a side position. The top is R30+.

I have kept bees in Northwestern Ontario (Red Lake Area). We used a R10 (2") shell there with good success.


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

My goal is not to just survive, but to thrive and explode in population from spring. I would use the same setup regardless of my location (anywhere in Canada). The open crawl space provides both fresh air and cooling air during warmer winter/spring days. I am sold on my polys. I used to overwinter individual poly colonies (not pushed together) with only the additional bubble foil wrap for extra wind and solar protection. The setup still needs to breath, but just in a controlled managed way.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Yukon Bees said:


> My goal is not to just survive, but to thrive and explode in population from spring. I would use the same setup regardless of my location (anywhere in Canada). The open crawl space provides both fresh air and cooling air during warmer winter/spring days. I am sold on my polys. I used to overwinter individual poly colonies (not pushed together) with only the additional bubble foil wrap for extra wind and solar protection. The setup still needs to breath, but just in a controlled managed way.


Do you know Canadian https://bpgrower.com/langstroth-honeybee-brood-box? He is switching to those: Log into Facebook


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

jtgoral said:


> Do you know Canadian https://bpgrower.com/langstroth-honeybee-brood-box? He is switching to those: Log into Facebook


Yes, I know about them... I looked into them but shipping was too expensive as they ship assembled when I checked. They are great (reasonably priced) if you can pick them up in person.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Fusion_power said:


> Surely he could have stated a few of the Langstroth hive's design problems. I mean, after all, bee space is bee space so why is a Langstroth hive 9 5/8 inches deep when frames are 9 1/8 inches? I could point out a dozen more many of which have been addressed over the years, but the fixes never took hold.


See, these (the dozen more) are things I don't know.  I thought however that the boxes were a tiny bit taller to allow for shrinking of the wood (more an issue when the Langstroth took hold.)



Fusion_power said:


> When is a fixed comb hive the best option?


Aren't you required, in the US anyway, to have a movable comb hive to allow for inspection?



Fusion_power said:


> And ultimately, what could we as beekeepers do to improve our beehives?


How do you even get a movement to take hold? Ultimately, you can do whatever you can to improve it and never change the frames I guess. That seems to be sacrosanct because of the investment (both on the part of the bees and the beekeepers) and interchangeability. Hell, I'm struggling to try to stay with my desire for all mediums and I've not even started yet. Thankfully that idea is taking hold - but how long has it taken before it was semi-broadly supported?

I think the answer is, despite the rousing arguments/discussions here, that when it comes down to it people will not change. It's not about the best, is it? It's about "how little can I get away with in terms of money and work to make this effective?" Add to the mix the needs of the itinerant beekeepers and their stranglehold on the market, and there's very little opportunity to work, at sufficient scale, to "improve."

My $0.02 anyway. You don't need to be a beekeeper to know economics.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Here are a few of the ways a Langstroth hive comes up short.

1. It can be blown over by strong wind. A square box is more stable on the base and can be stacked higher.
2. Bee space is violated by the 9 5/8 hive body with 9 1/8 frames. Dried lumber usually expands a bit when exposed to outdoor weather making this worse.
3. The volume of a Langstroth deep is not enough for a wintering colony in most temperate climates.
4. The size frame is constrained by the size of the hive. Queens are less efficient layers in Langstroth size frames.
5. It forces 2 queen systems into 2 boxes by default.
6. Size of the hive is too small in spring buildup which encourages swarming.
7. Wintering is less efficient than for example in a Warre hive.
8. Vertical stacking of supers makes access to the brood nest more difficult, have to remove supers first.
9. Weight of a Langstroth deep when used as a super is too much for many beekeepers.
10. The length of a Langstroth hive is arguably a bit too long.
11. The entrance design causes comb near the entrance to be unusable for brood.
12. Langstroth hives are relatively difficult to feed (use frame feeders, jar feeders, top feeders, etc.)
13. Wintering characteristics of Langstroth hives are very poor in extremely cold climates. This thread shows it.
14. Langstroth hives are awkward to handle due in part to box design and size.
15. The design forces workers loaded with nectar to go through the brood nest instead of bypassing it to the supers.
16. The bottom board is flat which catches rain if not tilted. Why not make them slanted! Yes Roland, this one is for you.

I could come up with a few more, but you get the point.

Re using horizontal hives, if you were a beekeeper in Africa, you would definitely have reason to use a horizontal frame hive. Beekeepers in many countries do not have either the money to purchase or the ability to build hives such as the Langstroth. They can find a hollow log or use half of a drum to make a fixed comb or top bar hive. Point is that while Langstroth hives may be the only viable option in the U.S. there are other options in other countries that make a lot more sense. Layens hive anyone?


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I'd add two more to your list ... by having a bee-space clearance between side-bars, the Langstroth hanging-frame reduces the inter-comb thermal control which fixed-combs are thought to provide - also, the presence of frame-lugs resting on the hive side-wall rebates encourages the build-up of propolis in that area, which can be seen as an indication that the bees are not entirely happy with that structure - hence they try to fix it.

Although the bee-space is seen by beekeepers these days in positive, even 'essential' terms, it could also be viewed as a rather clever mechanism for thwarting the bees from structuring their nest in a manner which they prefer, and perhaps which is more important to them than we humans realise.

Shortly after Langstoth's invention was revealed to the world, several beekeepers began expressing concerns about the resulting lack of environmental control which bee-space clearances create. One solution to this was to build frames with closed-end side-bars, a technique adopted by Quinby, Danzenbaker and - for a while - Heddon.

At the moment, I'm taking an interest in the Hetherington-Quinby Hive, of which Hetherington successfully ran 3000 and was considered by many at that time to be running the largest beekeeping operation in the world. Quinby ran around 1200 - again, very successfully.

But - the die had already been cast, with Amos Root churning out railway box-cars full of Root-Heddon (Langstroth-style) woodenware. And it would have been hard for a vendor of a novel hive, no matter how good, to compete with that kind of industrialised mass-production.

Will I build a Hetherington/Quinby-style hive ? Dunno - it's tempting. If I did, I wouldn't use the metal hooks which Quinby used, there are much simpler ways of keeping frames vertical than that. But I do like the idea of standing-frames, and of course there is also the thermal buffering of the double-wall hive structure which fits well into the theme of this thread. 
LJ


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Fusion_power said:


> I could come up with a few more, but you get the point.


Number 2 is made worse if you mix frames from different sources. Used to be an article here comparing most of the common lang frames available ten years ago. Showed which were compatible... Ring a bell with anyone? Can not find it here since the forum change, nor my local copy. Would help if I could remember the exact name.

Found and re-posted below. (Thanks to both!) Oh, and the original link still works, Wood Frames for the Langstroth Hive so it is in _two _places.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

The purpose of this thread is not to discuss the merits of the lang hive.

Back on topic,

now that it's confirmed that insulation is superior to low quality, thin wooden colonies (all the wooden top bar and lang are inferior) which are the best poly hives on the market?


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## Earthboy (May 16, 2007)

Fusion_power said:


> Here are a few of the ways a Langstroth hive comes up short.
> 
> 1. It can be blown over by strong wind. A square box is more stable on the base and can be stacked higher.
> 2. Bee space is violated by the 9 5/8 hive body with 9 1/8 frames. Dried lumber usually expands a bit when exposed to outdoor weather making this worse.
> ...


I am in violent agreement about how inept Langstorth is. One way to overcome #12, especially when making nuc boxes, I create an empty space above the frame rest, which will accommodate either a sugar block or Mountain Camp. I am recycling plywood trashed from a housing site nearby along with sheet rock, converting the latter to insulated lids, wrapped inside by thick black house-wrap plastic sheet I salvaged. To insulate the lids, I use egg-cartoon mattress top (sponge) inside that wrap.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

LJ, I somewhat agree with your position on frame end bars. I'll point out that frame end bars as currently made by all major manufacturers are too thin.

Re different manufacturers making equipment with different specs, it would help immensely if all hive component makers used the same standards, but that is not likely to happen. Consider the insulated hives available. How many different shapes? How many different R values? How many different ways to treat them for durability?

Re discussion of frames from different manufacturers, it is somewhat covered in this thread: The making of a frame 

There used to be an information area on beesource that had a discussion of various frame manufacturers. I found it on archive.org but don't see it on beesource currently.





Wood Frames for the Langstroth Hive | Beesource Beekeeping







web.archive.org


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> There used to be an information area on beesource that had a discussion of various frame manufacturers. I found it on archive.org but don't see it on beesource currently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for pointing that out. Some of the Beesource content that was outside of the forum itself was lost when the switch to Zenforo was made. I have now created a PDF of that article content from Archive.org and added it to a sticky thread in the Equipment forum that also contains PDFs regarding building beekeeping equipment, here:









Build It Yourself - Equipment Plans in PDF format


Solar Wax Melter A relatively cheap way to render wax is to use a solar melter. The heat is free and a side benefit is the bleaching of the wax by the sun. The drawing assumes 3/4″ lumber. The thumbnail image above is clickable, so you can see a larger image, but to download the actual PDF...




www.beesource.com





The Frame Review article is post #33, so after the thread loads, scroll down to post #33.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

C'mon guys, start a new thread for bashing hive designs, that is NOT what this thread is about.
Lee


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I'd love to see more discussion of actual use of highly insulated hives. In that thread:

1. Would there be any advantage to using a partially insulated hive, as in R6 sides and maybe R12 top?

2. How does having the top and sides super insulated help when the bottom is wide open?

3. If an insulated hive is a huge benefit, what would happen in a hive with climate control? I'm not just talking about temperature, but air flow, and moisture level as well.

4. If you put 6 inches of polyisocyanurate on top, bottom, and all 4 sides of a hive giving roughly R40, would any condensation at all form inside the hive during winter? Presume this also involves modifying air flow as it would have to be controlled in some way.


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## Earthboy (May 16, 2007)

Fusion_power said:


> I'd love to see more discussion of actual use of highly insulated hives. In that thread:
> 
> 1. Would there be any advantage to using a partially insulated hive, as in R6 sides and maybe R12 top?
> 
> ...


According to the Wisconsin study I read, the core temperature in winter was the same whether a hive had screened bottom or wooden bottom.

From "The Benefits of Providing Good Hive Insulation but No Upper Entrance in Winter"

The advantages to insulating hives and eliminating the top entrance include: • Top insulation significantly reduces condensation on the inner cover • Top and side insulation keeps the upper part of the hive warmer, and thus the cluster looser • The cluster is better able to move to food stores • There is no heat loss from the upper entrance/vent hole • Colony consumes less honey because the cluster does not need to work as hard to maintain core cluster temperature. • Colony recycles condensation in order to thin honey and produce brood food


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> I'd love to see more discussion of actual use of highly insulated hives. In that thread:
> 
> 1. Would there be any advantage to using a partially insulated hive, as in R6 sides and maybe R12 top?
> 
> ...


A few people here do fully insulate (all sides and top and bottom), it works for them. 

I have a couple of theories on the effects of a physical drop just after the front entrance. In the attached chart from last week's monitoring (red circle is sensor location). You can see that there is a gradual increase in temperature as you go up (F) -> (D) and out the front entrance. (E) is typically higher than (D). This tells me we are likely getting a mixing of air between the incoming and outgoing (exhaust) air. The crawl space actually allows the colder air to drop inside this cavity thus protecting the cluster from encounter the cold incoming air. The entrance likely has a split flow occurring (top=warm exhaust air; bottom=colder incoming fresh air). This provides another energy saving when only using a single entrance. I will be able to say more on this as the winter progresses. I have 2 single colonies setup with this sensor setup. One has a slatted rack with an additional sensor above the centre of the rack. (A) is likely the pathway for the warm air coming off the cluster, cooling (getting heavier), and dropping down and eventually making it's way out of the colony (likely a natural convection current driven by temperature differences. The daily temperature increases at the entrance will soon disappear once I lean my pieces of plywood at my entrances.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

While it is strictly an observational anecdote from a single location, I thought I would add what I observe here in our mixed-humid climate in Western Kentucky (USDA Climate Zone 7a).

I run to different hive types- standard Langstroth colonies equipped with both lower and upper entrances and full 1-3/4" thick homemade Warre hives equipped with 1" diameter openings in the middle of the front face of every box. All colonies (irrespective of type) are also equipped with 1" thick polystyrene insulation under the outer cover.

I decided early on to 'let the bees decide' how much ventilation they preferred and did not interfere with their efforts to propolize any openings as they see fit.

I was (and continue to be) surprised to find that the bees almost never completely occlude any opening- even the colonies that have openings in every box. I have attached a couple photos of one such Warre hive for reference- this colony has overwintered twice in this configuration, and have spent each season diligently enlarging the opening between where two boxes are ill-fitted.

Further, on the colonies that do partially propolize the upper entrance (existing nuc example attached) I am always interested to observe how they will work on the opening all winter- adding and removing propolis seemingly at random until they remove all vestiges of it by the time foraging begins in earnest in the early spring.

While I recognize that none of this proves anything scientifically, it is interesting to me that (at least in our specific location and bee population) the bees seem to prefer to leave a means for ventilating at the top (or possibly for a reason other than ventilation - i.e. cleansing flights) both in thin and thick-walled assemblies with modest insulation on top.

I am enjoying reading the thoughts and observations from others in very different climates from mine.


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## rdimanin (Jan 17, 2020)

From what I understand, bees in a hive during winter react to ambient temperature. In other words, in a poly hive, bees fly when the ambient temp is over 43-48 F, depending on subspecies of bee. When wooden hives get warmed up by direct sunlight, bees can exit the hive & die if the ambient temp is too cold. I've never seen my bees in poly hives exit the hive when the ambient temp is below 40F but have seen bees in wooden hives exit the hive & die when the ambient temp is below 40F.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I've seen my bees successfully complete a cleansing flight on a warm sunny day at 38 degrees F. The front of the hive was in direct southern sun and was a bit warmer. There was no snow on the ground at the time. The bees flew out about 80 feet from the hive and flew right back less than a minute later.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Back in post 173, fusion power listed 16 ways that a Langstroth hive was deficient. Some I acknowledged, and realized we had an efficient work around. Others, I questioned, like the ability to winter in a single deep in northern climates (we have data from 1932 showing otherwise). However , when I got to point 16, I was forced to yell :"Touche!!!" , Well played.

As I was eating breakfast this morning, I noted just to the right of the three pre-19000's extractors in the living room, the spring balance scale with a zero at 90 lbs, and incremental 5 lb markings every 5 pounds below, so that the scale readings and markings always added to 90. The single hive, with bottom board, deep, inner cover, roof AND bees, was placed on the scale. The marking by the weight was fed in feed. This was abandoned in the 60's when EPS was invented, we could the winter on less.when a piece was placed only OVER the deep.

Crazy, and "touched" Roland


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

In the theme of this thread, I took a few minutes to look up the R value of many common construction types of insulation. The most commonly available are PUR (R7), PIR (R5.8), and EPS (R4) where R value is per inch thickness of material. For all of these, R values are highly dependent on method of manufacture. These are made by a foaming process that introduces air bubbles and/or air spaces in the material which provides the resistance to heat flow. Three inches of EPS gives R12 which is not really that high. For comparison, most houses are built with walls in the range of R15 and attic around R25. Highly insulated houses have air infiltration barriers combined with insulation in walls of about R25 and attics around R40. To get R40 with EPS (Polystyrene) would require a sheet 10 inches thick. Perhaps of more importance to beekeepers, EPS absorbs moisture to some extent and in some conditions can become saturated. Wet EPS has little or no insulation value. EPS used in beehives has to be coated with a protective layer to prevent the bees from chewing and removing material. The best way to cut EPS is with a hot wire. It can also be scored and broken with a sharp blade.









R-value (insulation) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

Yukon Bees said:


> The crawl space actually allows the colder air to drop inside this cavity thus protecting the cluster from encounter the cold incoming air.


At the bottom side the pressure difference is lower and for same amount of air exchange the opening has to be wider. If crawl space is sealed and entrance is small there still can be problem with ventilation.

From point of view of construction bottom to top ventilation is much more interesting. With that approach all sides of hive can be insulated and then heat loss is only because cold air enters the hive and warm air exits hive. Your "E" sensor shows that temperature is higher during sunny day at entrance and that effect can be enhanced for heating input air. For extremely cold weather the input air can be heated by solar panels. Cold air is dry and when heated it absorbs water, circulation in hive (distribution of oxygen) is better, system is compact and should be reliable, effect of wind minimal, etc.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Grins said:


> C'mon guys, start a new thread for bashing hive designs, that is NOT what this thread is about.


While I agree with your statement, I'm not sure that's the intent here. I don't think the thread is entirely about simply using insulation, so exploring things that may also improve overwintering such as removing the bee space at the end of frames to allow the bees to better condition their air, seems like it may be germane to the subject.

This is the benefit and the bane of the Internet, that discussions are organic. I've learned a lot here so far, and it's not like we will run out of space. Just a new guy's opinion.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Grins said:


> C'mon guys, start a new thread for bashing hive designs, that is NOT what this thread is about.
> Lee





username00101 said:


> The purpose of this thread is not to discuss the merits of the lang hive.


Within the context of 'Insulated Beehives', I think it's legitimate to criticise the most commonly used beehive(*) throughout the world, precisely because it's *not *insulated.
LJ

(*) Strictly speaking, it isn't* A *beehive at all - with well-defined parameters (unlike the Layens, A-Z etc) - but a* system of components* from which several permutations of beehive can be created.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Fusion_power said:


> To get R40 with EPS (Polystyrene) would require a sheet 10 inches thick.


I'm sure I learned this in college, but I'll be darned if I can remember the theory/calculations. It seems like at some point the thickness of the insulation and the minimal width/length reduce the insulative value of the thickness. It also begins to add a big sail on top of the hive, which starts to become an issue around here in the winter. I am not saying I read @Fusion_power's note as a suggestion that we should use 10" of foam of course.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I just want to comment that there does seem to be a preoccupation these days with the insulation of stand-alone beehives, whereas past generations used to protect their beehives in other ways - keeping them in cellars, within clamps, placing 4 or 6 hives together and erecting a winter box around them - and of course, the use of bee-sheds.

I rather think that if I lived where winters were hostile, I'd prefer to over-winter within a shed. A different kind of 'insulation'. "Group Insulation". 
LJ


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

LBussy said:


> While I agree with your statement, I'm not sure that's the intent here. I don't think the thread is entirely about simply using insulation, so exploring things that may also improve overwintering such as removing the bee space at the end of frames to allow the bees to better condition their air, seems like it may be germane to the subject.
> 
> This is the benefit and the bane of the Internet, that discussions are organic. I've learned a lot here so far, and it's not like we will run out of space. Just a new guy's opinion.


What is the thread subject for?


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

jtgoral said:


> What is the thread subject for?


The same as any thread subject - to foster conversation. Now that there are three or four posts complaining about the people taking a turn into a related discussion, we have about as many complaints (which are also off-topic by the way) as we do posts that you consider off-topic. It's a conversation. Do you interrupt people during a conversation to tell them they are not adhering to your rules?


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

LBussy said:


> The same as any thread subject - to foster conversation. Now that there are three or four posts complaining about the people taking a turn into a related discussion, we have about as many complaints (which are also off-topic by the way) as we do posts that you consider off-topic. It's a conversation. Do you interrupt people during a conversation to tell them they are not adhering to your rules?


I join the thread because of the subject someone created and omit subjects I am not interested in.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> In the theme of this thread,


Also in the theme of this topic I highly recommend this site:





Building Science Corporation


BSC, a consulting and architecture firm is an industry recognized leader in building technology for commercial, institutional, and residential applications.




www.buildingscience.com





Review the list of freely available papers and articles (you can easily search per topic - e.g. moisture, etc).
Why?
Because most all topics apply the same.
In addition - most papers are making the point of differentiating the climate zones and accounting for them (as this makes the solutions very different).

For example, I would dump this overused USDA zone chart as not very useful and instead use these building science climate regions (hydro-thermal regions, technically) in conjunction with the precipitation regions:



















Sample articles that I downloaded for myself long ago:


https://www.buildingscience.com/sites/default/files/migrate/pdf/PA_Moisture_Control_ASHRAE_Lstiburek.pdf






__





BSD-138: Moisture and Materials


Moisture is involved in most building problems. The most serious tend to be structural damage due to wood decay, unhealthy fungal growth, corrosion, freeze-thaw, and damage to moisture sensitive interior finishes. Avoiding these problems requires an understanding of moisture, the nature of...




www.buildingscience.com


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Right from this paper:



> For example, the interior surface area is about 0.2 m2/gram (50 ft2/ounce) for gypsum board, 20 m2/gram (5000 ft2/ounce) for cement paste and even more for wood or cellulose. Materials such as glass, steel and most plastics have essentially no porosity. Since these types of materials have no pores, they have no internal surface area and hence neither allow any significant water absorption nor moisture transmission.


Just these facts stated here have significant implications (added to hydrophilic/hydrophobic properties of the materials).


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> I would dump this overused USDA zone chart as not very useful and instead use these building science climate regions (hydro-thermal regions, technically) in conjunction with the precipitation regions


I agree that Dr. Joe is a wealth of information concerning the built environment and is one of the leading contemporary professionals in the field of moisture transmission specific to local environmental conditions. He also is fun to listen to and has a folksy way of writing that is often humorous despite the fairly technical nature of his field.

As regards the USDA zone map, I have found that the Sunset map is particularly helpful- the only trouble is their site is hard to navigate to find what you are looking for. I've found the best thing to do is find which zone you are in, and then to search via your favorite web browser for recommendations specific to your Sunset zone.

We are located in Zone 33, and their description is pretty accurate:

_Growing season: mid-April through Oct. Warm Gulf Coast air and colder continental/arctic fronts both play a role; their unpredictable interplay results in a wide range in annual rainfall (22″ to 52″) and winter lows (20 degrees to 0 degrees F/-7 degrees to -18 degrees C). Summers are muggy and warm to hot._


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregV said:


> Also in the theme of this topic I highly recommend this site:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What Figure 1 and Figure 3 in this article tells me I should put foil on the topmost box, good insulation on top of it and some wooden or other protection as a hive roof if I am in northern Illinois. It looks like most Russian beekeepers in Siberia read this article half a century ago already


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregV said:


> Right from this paper:
> 
> 
> 
> Just these facts stated here have significant implications (added to hydrophilic/hydrophobic properties of the materials).


Add in the modifying factor of whether the internal porositity is open cell or closed cell and the plot thickens!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> We are located in Zone 33, and their description is pretty accurate:


When it comes to breaking down to very many sub-regions it just complicates things unnecessarily I feel.
There are hundreds of sub-regions once you start digging into it.

I really like this simple map from "buildingscience" instead to meet most all needs as far as beehive tinkering is concerned.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Add in the modifying factor of whether the internal porositity is open cell or closed cell and the plot thickens!


Some.
However, the porosity of the hydrophobic materials is less significant/useful compared to the same of hydrophilic wood.
Wetting degree of those internal surfaces is very important

Back to the original post up there somewhere - once wooden surfaces were inserted into the poly-hives (just as porous as wood, probably) - magic happened!


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

GregV said:


> When it comes to breaking down to very many sub-regions it just complicates things unnecessarily I feel.
> There are hundreds of sub-regions once you start digging into it.
> 
> I really like this simple map from "buildingscience" instead to meet most all needs as far as beehive tinkering is concerned.
> ...


Generally speaking, the mason/Dixon line is where the "mild winter" beekeepers are separated form the northern beekeepers.

A word of caution when taking "wintering" advice from southern beekeepers, it can cause new beekeepers great confusion. Ideally these Southern folks can participate in Northern Wintering discussions. But should ultimately defers recommendations to other sources - instead of offering opinions on a phenomenon they've never actually endured themselves.

Below is a helpful reference that covers a number of the subjects on this thread with regards to moisture, ventilation etc. Randy Oliver admits that he doesn't deal with a real "winter" - and cites references - which is the correct stance, and position on this subject.









Randy, Author at Scientific Beekeeping - Page 3 of 15







scientificbeekeeping.com


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> I really like this simple map from "buildingscience" instead to meet most all needs as far as beehive tinkering is concerned.


No argument from me, GregV. Just providing some context.

Speaking of context, I hasten to add that Dr. Joe's well-researched and tested recommendations are developed with the built environment in mind, considering human occupant comfort, indoor air quality and protection of the building envelope from moisture degradation as their primary tenants- not the successful overwintering of cold-blooded insects. That said, I expect the general precepts he outlines are helpful in informing climate-appropriate beekeeping set-ups, particularly as it relates to moisture/vapor management.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> That said, I expect the general precepts he outlines are helpful in informing climate-appropriate beekeeping set-ups, particularly as it relates to moisture/vapor management.


+1

About 10 years ago read through about the entire "buildingscience" website as I was finishing/improving my house - then I made my decisions based on that information.

I still feel many discussions on the BS really have detailed answers already provided by the "buildingscience" - it is all there for the taking.

For example, the moisture subject is all laid out in very average reader-friendly format and most everyone can figure it out.
Highly recommend for anyone tinkering around the bee hives - fits this insulated hive discussion squarely.


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

On Cold Climate building science research, Fairbanks, Alaska has some good material.

This page describes several of the concept I try to describe in my talks.
*Vapor Drive, Dew Point, **Heat Transfer, Air Flow/Stack Effect*








Building Science Overview







cchrc.org




*Note:* Air density differences is proportional to the temperature difference. This is not a problem in non-insulated hives as the inside Ts are very close to the outside Ts. Not so in insulated setups. In extreme situations, we get delta Ts of 40 to 70 degree C (i.e. Tin=25C vs Tout=-45C). Warmer air also carries more moisture and therefore is at a higher risk of releasing that moisture as condensation if rapidly cooled.

(Building "Wall" Science)





Note: Our typical styrofoam (building supplies) get R5 per inch. Better in more specialized material


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

> Moisture taking these routes can condense and freeze inside roofs and walls, going completely unnoticed until the spring thaw.


That is not good if it is not planed, yet it is efficient way to remove excess water (from hive). Frozen (or not) water in outer layer behind insulation is not a problem.

Essentially all parameters are known except the amount of ventilation needed. In both cases; top ventilation and no top vent amount of ventilation should be considered for hive design.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

username00101 said:


> Honey bees have no additional requirement for water consumption, honey is 20% water, and metabolic catabolism releases water.
> 
> *C6H12O6 + 6 O2 --> 6 CO2 + 6 H2O + heat* + (LOTS OF WATER 20% by mass).
> 
> If anything, they have *excessive* water.


Disagree
do you have peer reviewed studies?
a quick search and I did not locate any.

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

username00101 said:


> there seem to be a notion here that bees somehow require more than 27 POUNDS of water when they're eating 40 pounds of honey?
> 
> The cluster generates over 3 gallons of water....
> 
> ...


you are assuming all the 27 pounds of water are used and available when needed.

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Roland said:


> Sean - yes, no hive body, Done at UW Madison, The frames where held in by a skeleton of a hive body, just the edges and corners.
> 
> Fusion Power wrote:
> Roland's weather accidentally slipped down here.
> ...


Roland
to "winter" yes they need less.
Add in the honey needed in spring to get brood started and if/when you have a cool late spring.

And Hive size matters. a 3 deep I would offer has more bees to feed than a 1 deep, so as the hive size varies so does the honey needs. Is there a sweet spot sure. each zone has a sweet spot,  but IMO my 3 deep is going to burn more than 40lbs before adding to stores at Dandelion time. 
Most of us quote " per hive" yet IMO this maybe should be quoted as "per frame" with the obvious constraints of frame size so maybe per Square foot of comb.

with race and zone and winter hive size, we need to keep in mind we are mostly talking of different things and making assumptions of some of the variables being none affecting of the out come.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

My experience is that some forms of hive top management such as deep boxes of planer shavings with totally screened bottom and large vent area above the shavings, can whisk all moisture away as soon as it is produced. Gone in the form of water vapor, while the bees are needing free water to dilute honey for feeding brood. (Esp. if crystallized). If upper internal hive surfaces are so well insulated (above the dew point) that no moisture can condense to liquid within their reach, how then do the bees cope?

I realize this is a worse case scenario but I am certainly wondering if I have been creating a situation in this direction.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Sean Govan said:


> This again is mind blowing for me.
> 
> So small colonies eat lots of honey per bee, because they're burning calories to keep warm.
> 
> ...


Sean
yes the honey consumed "per bee" is not linear.
in the smaller clusters each bee needs to heat more often, hence ash build up.
in large clusters each bee needs to heat less, hence the empty gut.
so at some sweet spot they can eat often enough to not over ash and have some food for themselves, and not burn thru the fat stores.

Add in the Zone and hive type and race,, all can and do matter.

GG


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Please take some effort to read the below references, published in ABJ in 2020 by Randy - covers much of this subject in great detail, for example some nuggets:

_That works out to *at least* 118 mg of water required to rear each worker to pupation._
_· Thus the rearing of a single larva would easily allow more than three workers to completely dispose of the excess water in their bodies._
_· In order for the cluster to transfer the water produced from a weekly consumption of a pound of honey, the colony would need to rear less than half a frame of brood (both sides of the comb) that week._

*Reference 1:*

_ Randy, Author at Scientific Beekeeping - Page 3 of 14_

*Reference 2:*

_








The Nosema Problem: Part 7b - The Causes of Dysentery in Honey Bees: Part 2 - Scientific Beekeeping


Contents The bees’ need for water. 1 Water and the winter cluster. 1 Water Balance. 2 Water homeostasis and buffering in the winter cluster. 3 Water in the gut. 3 Atmosphere and Humidity within the winter cluster. 3 Evaporation via respiration. 5 Defecation/Dysentery. 6 Literature cited. 8...




scientificbeekeeping.com












_


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

username00101 said:


> A) The subject of winter bee water requirements has not been studied via peer review papers (i.e., to answer: what they need vs. what they get (metabolically or otherwise). Re-read Randy's above references, they're the best examination on this subject and cite all relevant studies.
> 
> B) Bees get all the water they need metabolically in the winter. BUT see C)
> 
> ...


C) This changes when brood rearing begins, if you read _Randy's previous reference_ I posted, *brood rearing is extremely water intensive,* which is why bees forage for water in the spring very heavily, but can survive just on metabolic water alone in the winter for 3-6 months without any cleansing flights, or ever breaking cluster. 

so I have done enough checks and autopsies in my day to conclude the bees I have in My zone start brood in mid February. So there is no forage for water in Feb and early March, still ay too cold. the only water they have is inside the hive. The water from Nov, Dec, And Jan, is likely "not still inside" so your math is really not any help, as the early water created is likely lost and the water need in mid feb needs to be accounted for.

Also in Feb the air is very dry, so any air exchange will remove water from the Air of the hive.

I also do think in some cases the brood reared is to either use up the water or use up honey to get more water.

My Screen BB hive did the worse last year, so almost all were replaced by solid for this year.

My well insulated did the best, it was a double deep long hive about 1/2 full so it did have a large side pocket of air, maybe has a similar effect to the bottom air in Yukon Jeff's example.

There is no one answer to all things water.

GG


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

It's not my math, it's THE Math. The chemical formula is not a personal opinion.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GG; Maybe he did not read this part of your previous post; _"The water from Nov, Dec, And Jan, is likely "not still inside" so your math is really not any help, as the early water created is likely lost and the water need in mid feb needs to be accounted for"._


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

duplicate post


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Thanks for clarifying.

The math is still the math - I did an inferior job at the math compared to a previous poster on page 8 or 9 (so many pages). Also I believe Randy's reference has all the math one needs to know, with references cited.

The bees have lower water requirements during the broodless period, and dramatically higher requirements during the brooding periods. That much seems obvious, based on the cited references above.

Observations north (and South) of the Mason Dixon line, indicate water foraging.

GregV properly referenced "water bees", which Randy Cited, which I believe came from one of the references from ABJ.

So honestly, after all this discussion - I am frankly still uncertain as to the bees water requirements in the winter. I know that the math indicates a huge amount of water generated metabolically, and that brood requires a huge amount of water, and that we have all observed bees foraging for water.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

username00101 said:


> So honestly, after all this discussion - I am frankly still uncertain as to the bees water requirements in the winter.


I'm freaking lost.

I live south of the Mason-Dixon line (or the "Mixed Humidity" line shown on the map above,) and I can assure you it's freaking wet here. I cannot imagine a case where I would want to condense vapor in the hive. I may be wrong, but I foresee mildew if that happens. It's not just how much water is available but how much more moisture will be evaporated as the bees respire (yes I know they are not mammals, etc.)

We also had a polar vortex last winter that left us <-20F for a week or more. Generally, though it's in the 20's with a dip into the teens.

So, it's local, and it's different all the time. I do know that local beeks keep bees in 3/4" wooden Langstroth hives despite it being "all wrong" according to science. I LOVE me a good scientific argument, but we're going around in circles here with people in Georgia arguing points with people in the Yukon. Both may be right.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

People in the north are buying into hive top insulation so that takes care of most excess water dripping onto clusters. Also quite a following of using a medium hive body with a screened bottom and filled with planer shavings. Often large openings above the shavings vent the transpired moisture. I have been a great proponent of that method and there are quite a few photos on various means. It absolutely keeps the bees dryer than wooden idols but the alarming amount of bees dying from attempting to gather snow water in Feb. and March gives pause for wonder if we are not been to clever and effective at draining every last bit of free water from the bees reach. *Free* water may be key. If the cavity is so warm that any vapor is above its dew point and all water vapor is whisked up and out as it is created, where can the bees get water for diluting often crystallized honey for brood rearing.

There seem to be contradictions that make the hypotheses seem ridiculous but it will not be the first time we have been confused or wrongly convinced by _apparent_ contradictions.


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

I apologize for the technical post, bee science/math is extremely complex. I have been trying to understand key principals to better my wintering. I don't believe in right or wrong in general. 

I like where the discussion is going. Remember that hives/colonies are dynamic and continuously changing. Here is an instantaneous snap shot of a winter colony. RH% is relative to temperature so 80% RH air at 20C is the same regardless of where on earth you live. 
The balancing act between how much air at what humidity, at what temperature, how much insulation, how much moisture is absorbed by the hive material & by the honey (hygroscopic properties), how much honey consumed, the type of honey (sugar content, ash content, moisture content), how many bees, the type of genetics are all inter-related. As a beekeeper, our job is to give the bees the best possible conditions possible that will allow the bees to be bees under the lowest possible stress level, under our local conditions. I am a fan of passive ventilation (let the bees determine how much air flow they want).









In a wintering hive, condensation will occur somewhere, your job is to understand where and is it enough or too much. The above is a snapshot from last year, I calculated dew points based on immediate conditions, as daily temperatures fluctuate things change, the reason I like insulation is that it slows down these internal changes. A 30 Degree C drop will take 3-6 hours to alter conditions inside, where are in a non-insulated setup the change occurs almost instantly. I ran some trial in 2019 to measure these thermal lags. I used 9 sensors to extrapolate and model what the internal temperature would look like (with the help of another engineer). Every additional sensor, does increase the accuracy but at increased the costs and risk of sensor failing.

The next picture shows how 95%RH air at 5C is actually 26% RH at 25C (hot inside of cluster). The yellow line shows the increase in moisture holding capacity in Absolute Humidity. The purple line shows the hygroscopic equilibrium of honey vs RH%.









The last examples shows the temperature profile of a similarly setup (sensor location) wooden hive in Richmond VA. This is one of the reasons I don't want solar heating in my colonies. It seems to cause many temperature crossover points out with very little lags. Not issue in areas of low humidity. If the bees have natural mechanism to deal with it not an issue. The challenge in most locations is that we get our largest diurnal swings in late winter (warm days/cool nights). This is also when colonies are at their weakest and the additional stressor of broodrearing kicks in.









I have done similar thought experiments using common ventilation calculation approaches (stack, buoyancy, orifice size, location of entrance, etc...) to determine the potential impact of various changes.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

LBussy said:


> I'm freaking lost.


My chuckle for the day, so am I LOL.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> we're going around in circles here with people in Georgia arguing points with people in the Yukon. Both may be right.


 100% correct. What beekeepers in the hot humid southeast do to get through winter will often diverge from what a beekeeper in Wisconsin does. (Sorry Roland, not picking on you, but you are "in the middle" compared with me and with Yukon)



> I am frankly still uncertain as to the bees water requirements in the winter.


The beginning of knowledge is admitting we don't know. I don't know either. One thing I am 100% sure of is that too much water in winter is very detrimental to my bees under my winter conditions. That does not take away from the fact that I've seen bees foraging for water off of melting snow. So under some conditions, they seem to have too much water from metabolism and under other conditions too little. Something else I am 100% sure of is that a group of beekeepers should take on the task of finding an answer. They could make water available during winter and monitor how much is consumed vs how much is lost to evaporative transpiration. Similarly, we need to understand how condensation in the hive is used and under what conditions it becomes deadly to the bees.

I'll make a few statements and lets see if anyone disagrees.

1. Blocking off air flow in the hive can and will kill a colony in winter conditions. This can occur from snow and ice building up over a bottom entrance.

2. Excessive condensation can kill a colony in winter. I've seen this up close and personal here in the southeast. My solution is to include a small upper entrance to vent the excess moisture. I am aware that the upper entrance is controversial, especially from beekeepers further north and/or in a drier climate.

3. There is abundant evidence that bees need extra water in early spring when they are unable to forage. This is shown by heavy water foraging any time the weather moderates enough to do so.

4. Highly insulated hives change the water use paradigm as compared to wooden hives. We need a thorough review of water requirements and ventilation requirements in highly insulated hives.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> 2. Excessive condensation can kill a colony in winter.


As long as the water is not "dripping on the bees", it is less of an issue.
How to resolve the "dripping on the bees" issue has been discussed and working solutions have been already identified.
To reiterate - force the condensation to occur anywhere BUT above the bees - the problem is mostly solved.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

> I'll make a few statements and lets see if anyone disagrees.
> 1. .....
> 2. ....
> 3. .....
> 4. ......


I would agree on all statements.
But also want to say that working solutions to each are available as we speak.
Just the issues need to be recognized first.

(Also recognizing that the beeks hailing from different hydro-thermal regions speak different languages and things get lost in translation).


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Fusion Power - although we have never witnessed bees dying from a iced up lower entrance with no upper entrance, I agree in general terms with all 4 points.

Crazy Roland


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> As long as the water is not "dripping on the bees", it is less of an issue.
> How to resolve the "dripping on the bees" issue has been discussed and working solutions have been already identified.
> To reiterate - force the condensation to occur anywhere BUT above the bees - the problem is mostly solved.


Agree, I once opened a hive in early spring to find an Inch of ice on the inside walls, it completely consumed the first and 10th frame. It was a 3 deep and I panicked but it was still too cold to do much, I closed it up and thought it was a gonner.
In 4 weeks it was the strongest with swarm cells on Dandelions. Plain side wall 2 inch insulated top. So it seems odd to me but the bees did fine. This was in the early 80's so it was a while ago.

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

username00101 said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> The math is still the math - I did an inferior job at the math compared to a previous poster on page 8 or 9 (so many pages). Also I believe Randy's reference has all the math one needs to know, with references cited.
> 
> ...


ok so in feb here there is no OUTSIDE water foraging period. temps are in the teens most nights 20s durring the day.

my point is early, dec, jan the water you said 37 pounds so round it to 10 pounds a month, is likely not all needed, not a big deal some can drip out some can vapor out etc. but in the last month of winter the 10 pounds may not be enough. And in Feb getting water out of thin air is not going to happen. the so called foragers would need an in-hive source, like ice or droplets on the wall, close enough to the cluster to go get it and not end up unable to get back., (torpid state)

just because in Alabama the 37 pounds "works" does not mean in northern Indiana or northern mich it also works.
If the bees we see in the snow on warmish days (35F) are the water foragers, then the hive may be in trouble.
if they are just bees getting out to not be a burden on the house cleaners then , not as big of an issue.
Empirically the well insulated hives has almost Zero bees in the snow. The one with bees in the snow tend to be weak in spring. Maybe not related, also maybe related. 

I do know they need water, and I do know they do not fly out to get it, here.
so i am trying to offer what I see. Not attempting to argue. Kindly offer where the water from honey consumed in dec is in Feb when it is needed? In A tree I would think some can buffer in the wood of the inside cavity. on painted wood or foam hive walls there is not much buffering, it would be more "just in time" processes.
I am trying some plastic sheets 5 mil over most of the frame at the top to see if there will be excess or less bees in the snow.

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Yukon Bees said:


> I apologize for the technical post, bee science/math is extremely complex. I have been trying to understand key principals to better my wintering. I don't believe in right or wrong in general.
> 
> I like where the discussion is going. Remember that hives/colonies are dynamic and continuously changing. Here is an instantaneous snap shot of a winter colony. RH% is relative to temperature so 80% RH air at 20C is the same regardless of where on earth you live.
> The balancing act between how much air at what humidity, at what temperature, how much insulation, how much moisture is absorbed by the hive material & by the honey (hygroscopic properties), how much honey consumed, the type of honey (sugar content, ash content, moisture content), how many bees, the type of genetics are all inter-related. As a beekeeper, our job is to give the bees the best possible conditions possible that will allow the bees to be bees under the lowest possible stress level, under our local conditions. I am a fan of passive ventilation (let the bees determine how much air flow they want).
> ...


great info and data.

the comment:
In a wintering hive, condensation will occur somewhere, your job is to understand where and is it enough or too much. 
Is spot on, I am thinking of how to capture, store, add if needed, close the the cluster with out opening the hive.

how much does stack height affect the data? IE a 2 box hive VRS a 4 Box hive, with same bottoms and tops.

Also wonder if the 3 red circled times when there was dew, did the bees change one of the Metrics to force a dew point (need water) or did the weather offer a low or hi pressure system, (random) if random the bees are at the whim of mother nature, if forced then maybe we have a inkling of how they get water when needed. they can slow the heat a bit open the cluster a bit let the dew happen collect it , recompact.

GG


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> I'll make a few statements and lets see if anyone disagrees.
> 
> 1. Blocking off air flow in the hive can and will kill a colony in winter conditions. This can occur from snow and ice building up over a bottom entrance.
> 
> ...


Northern Perspective:
1. This could technically happen with an ice build up (never seen it)... snow clears itself and creates melted dome around the entrance.
2. No issues with an upper entrance as long as it not excessively large. It is required in most un-insulated setups due to lack of natural ventilation in a bottom only setup. Natural ventilation naturally picks during brood rearing due to higher enclosure temperatures (Tin no longer equals Tout)
3. Not an issue here as my broodrearing is artificially triggered in late winter prior to any cleansing temps... They seem to find the required water. (this is why your point 4 is important)
4. yes...More regional studies required here to understand. Need to develop a ventilation monitoring approach that is easy to use to compare the different regions...

I attach my number/calcs in case others enjoy crunching numbers and want to discuss in more depth. These are all derived from empirical formulas developed via experimentation or derived from 1st principals. Reach out directly to me directly if you have any thoughts. I can send you my ventilation calculation spreadsheet.

Here is a visual explanation why too much upper ventilation likely becomes an issue (accelerated heat and moisture loss) for Single and Double Brood Box colonies with 3/4" & 1" dia hole on top. Many issues start happening once broodrearing starts (low internal water, risk of starvation, at risk during polar vortex or locations with high daily diurnal T swings). These calculations don't account for friction inside boxes but the relative differences between scenarios would be similar for boxes with 10 frames filled with bees as they would all have that.









Examples of relative flows without top entrances:
This one shows what the predicted relative flows would look like along the red arrow for a few actual temp profiles









This last one show a comparison of relative flow between a top ventilated colony and one with bottom only.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Found a relevant video.

This guy winters all bunch uninsulated hives without much moisture dissipating air pockets inside (above or to the side of the frames) - just a disaster to look at.
Watch at his soaked wet cloth inner covers.
He is surprised and concludes he needs to completely close off the top vents as not needed.

How would you fix this disaster?
I have my opinion. 

To compare - in this same video he shows a couple of little colonies in XPS nucs (ventilated bottoms).
They are doing great.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

Yukon Bees said:


> Here is a visual explanation why too much upper ventilation likely becomes an issue (accelerated heat and moisture loss)


You should compare (loses of) same air flow on top vs. bottom entrance.

Graph showing high air flow (and high loses) with top entrance, compared to low air flow at bottom opening is misleading.

We should know exact (minimal) amount of air flow needed for bees to breathe.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

A minimal top entrance size would be very interesting to know.

I have gone down to 1/2 inch round hole top entrance and using a quilt box and works well. Bottom entrance is two side entrances of 1/2 inch wide by 3/8 high. I'm thinking this somewhat prevents cold incoming air from entering directly onto cluster. Some of the thinking is that the small top entrance will encourage a cleansing flight when we get the rare flight day in our winter. It is also the back entrance if the two bottoms get blocked by ice or dead bees Hive interior is on the dry and perhaps too dry(not enough water for the bees) side.

A miscommunication happened with a neighbor I was mentoring. A commercial beekeeper was keeping 32 hives about 1.5 miles away and also because of wasps, I advised to reduce the bottom entrance. He reduced to 1/2 round hole. That became the only entrance for winter. He also had an 8 inch thick quilt box on top. Fortunately, the entrance did not get blocked and the hive survived.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

mgolden said:


> A minimal top entrance size would be very interesting to know.
> 
> I have gone down to 1/2 inch round hole top entrance and using a quilt box and works well. Bottom entrance is two side entrances of 1/2 inch wide by 3/8 high. I'm thinking this somewhat prevents cold incoming air from entering directly onto cluster. Some of the thinking is that the small top entrance will encourage a cleansing flight when we get the rare flight day in our winter. It is also the back entrance if the two bottoms get blocked by ice or dead bees Hive interior is on the dry and perhaps too dry(not enough water for the bees) side.
> 
> A miscommunication happened with a neighbor I was mentoring. A commercial beekeeper was keeping 32 hives about 1.5 miles away and also because of wasps, I advised to reduce the bottom entrance. He reduced to 1/2 round hole. That became the only entrance for winter. He also had an 8 inch thick quilt box on top. Fortunately, the entrance did not get blocked and the hive survived.


Mgolden,
re the "miscommunication"
I have on a couple occasions had the bottom blocked, so this is the best instance of why the top entrance is needed.

as well to big top entrance did not work well.

GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> Mgolden,
> re the "miscommunication"
> I have on a couple occasions had the bottom blocked, so this is the best instance of why the top entrance is needed.
> 
> ...


Unless you use a piece of plywood like Yukon Bees does...


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> Unless you use a piece of plywood like Yukon Bees does...


water running down the hive wall (inside) and out the entrance froze, couple days completely blocked the entrance with ICE, from the inside. No slanted board would have helped.
to have enough water for brood rearing in FEB, I had too much in dec and jan.
did have a 1 inch by 3/8 upper entrance and the hives did survive.

GG


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Etienne, am I correct you are using Excel to generate the graphs?

From your charts, it appears the rate of air exchange increases as external temperature decreases. This appears to be a dramatic difference indicating significant air circulation changes probably related to cluster temperature vs external temperature. Just on a hunch, I think the air exchange rate at very low temperatures is too high likely causing stress in the cluster. How would you determine if this is so?

Gray Goose, Your experience suggests a very humid climate along with extreme fluctuations of winter temperatures. Have you considered that the buildup of ice inside the hive might be either a result of too little air flow or else could be addressed by using insulated hives?


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Bottom entrance can also be blocked by dead bees as it can be just too cold for undertaker bees to remove the dead. Also as I use the two side entrances, internal water and freezing could block my bottom entrances.

I have also tinkered with back up entrance of 1/2 round hole just below the hand hold on bottom brood. No top entrance and I used quilt boxes. These worked just fine but I "worried" about bees not recognizing flying/cleansing flight days. We do get the rare flying day over winter.

Insulation on the walls is a must here. There is way too much condensation and frost on the inside walls. The first warm day and the bottom board becomes a soggy mess. One can get the dampness and then molding and result is not a good environment for the bees. Again a screened bottom board and "basement" would help with this.

I had never contemplated using screened bottom boards and a "basement" as Etienne does. I have tried them and find them not all that useful, hard to keep clean, and unwanted additional cooling of brood.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

My encounter with strictly bottom entrance followed heavy wet snow followed by rain then a temperature drop. The bottom of the hives were in practically solid ice. Of seven hives here 5 were dead outright with every bee collapsed in the bottom. One had a small cluster remaining but was queenless, one came out unscathed and if I remember correctly had a bigger drift around it. First trial of zero upper vent of any sort. This weather is certainly not typical here.

My kneejerk reaction was against no top entrance but that is under review. I certainly will be prepared to open the emergency top entrances and will monitor obvious moisture levels up top.


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

mgolden said:


> Bottom entrance can also be blocked by dead bees as it can be just too cold for undertaker bees to remove the dead. Also as I use the two side entrances, internal water and freezing could block my bottom entrances.
> 
> I have also tinkered with back up entrance of 1/2 round hole just below the hand hold on bottom brood. No top entrance and I used quilt boxes. These worked just fine but I "worried" about bees not recognizing flying/cleansing flight days. We do get the rare flying day over winter.
> 
> ...


My screened bottoms (basement) are only open from October to late April when wrapped . Closed all growing season.


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

For those with experience with blocked off (ice, snow or dead bees) lower entrances in a lower entrance only setup. Question: Was your colony insulated/wrapped, top insulation only, etc...?
The reason I ask is that I get quite the natural flow of warm moisture air coming out the front even at -30C with minimal ice buildup .


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Fusion_power said:


> Etienne, am I correct you are using Excel to generate the graphs?
> 
> From your charts, it appears the rate of air exchange increases as external temperature decreases. This appears to be a dramatic difference indicating significant air circulation changes probably related to cluster temperature vs external temperature. Just on a hunch, I think the air exchange rate at very low temperatures is too high likely causing stress in the cluster. How would you determine if this is so?
> 
> Gray Goose, Your experience suggests a very humid climate along with extreme fluctuations of winter temperatures. Have you considered that the buildup of ice inside the hive might be either a result of too little air flow or else could be addressed by using insulated hives?


FP
Yes am testing 5 units of the old "Buckeye hive"
The Iced hives did survive BTW while the upper entrance ones did not fare as well.

































Using 1.25 inch frames of raw wool in the gap between the walls. used the duct tape to prevent sagging, and wrapped frames with 8oz duck cloth. panels are 32 inch to work with 4 boxes with 2 being deep, and 2 medium, these are 8Frame BTW. this is my "decided" winter size. yes there was a black sheep in the bunch. was planning to take the frames out and place in the sun for July and Aug then put them back in. so 10 month insulation. walls are just under 3 inch. 15/16 wood 1 5/8 gap 15/16 wood. can also use 1.5 inch foam board if I go to many to not need to play the wool games. My 60 Lb bag looks like it will do 10 hives so first pass is 6 lbs of wool per hive.

my long lang double deep hives are insulated with 3.5 of fiberglass, walls made from store bought studs, with 3/4 T&G on the inside and 1/2 green plywood on the outside (4.5 inch walls). these performed very good but are like coffins. The double wall hives, I can move and set up my self. these double deep spawned the idea of double wall, and a quick google search found the Buckeye hive, And I copied, nothing new here yet, back in the day they used straw or sawdust for insulation. obvious observation these take triple the fasteners (3 inch screws) more than double the wood (outer box is 3 inches bigger each way) and more time to make.

So short answer I been thinking about insulation. yes.

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Yukon Bees said:


> For those with experience with blocked off (ice, snow or dead bees) lower entrances in a lower entrance only setup. Question: Was your colony insulated/wrapped, top insulation only, etc...?
> The reason I ask is that I get quite the natural flow of warm moisture air coming out the front even at -30C with minimal ice buildup .


mine were insulated with 1.5 foam, Quilt box with 6 inches of shavings, small 3/8 x 1.5 inch upper opening. on cold days I do see vapor coming out so they do loose moisture and heat out the top hole, these were 4 and 5 box hives so there is some chimney effect to be expected. my ice was from water dripping down the inside, only seen it 2 time in the last 35 years. so it is an outlier data point.

GG


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

viesest said:


> You should compare (loses of) same air flow on top vs. bottom entrance.
> 
> Graph showing high air flow (and high loses) with top entrance, compared to low air flow at bottom opening is misleading.
> 
> We should know exact (minimal) amount of air flow needed for bees to breathe.


I would love to be able to calculate the exact minimum that but it is a constant feedback loop with internal conditions (number of bees, location of cluster, amount of stores (collecting and releasing heat) all of which is related to the outside conditions. I have references that I can probably use to calculate O2 requirements that but with Temp fluctuations between 0 to 35C inside the hive and temps outside of 5C to -50C... I don't think the theoretical answer will be practical. 

My goal above is to understand the beekeeper impacts around how much insulation, ventilation types and size, etc... and the practical implications.

I was thinking of some type of ventilation monitoring but without a nearby power source, terrorist squirrels and curious Whiskey Jacks they wouldn't last a day or 2. If anyone knows of a weather proof CO2 bluetooth friendly sensor, I would like to get a few to help understand the metabolic rate changes over time


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Yukon Bees said:


> For those with experience with blocked off (ice, snow or dead bees) lower entrances in a lower entrance only setup. Question: Was your colony insulated/wrapped, top insulation only, etc...?
> The reason I ask is that I get quite the natural flow of warm moisture air coming out the front even at -30C with minimal ice buildup .


It would have taken some very powerful natural flow to overcome what the weatherman threw at us on that occasion. I know what you mean about natural warm outflow. I have been on expeditions to dig out hibernating bears discovered by hoar frost around their openings. I agree that in most winters an opening out into the porosity of the snow would take care of necessary exchange to prevent suffocation.


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> Etienne, am I correct you are using Excel to generate the graphs?
> 
> From your charts, it appears the rate of air exchange increases as external temperature decreases. This appears to be a dramatic difference indicating significant air circulation changes probably related to cluster temperature vs external temperature. Just on a hunch, I think the air exchange rate at very low temperatures is too high likely causing stress in the cluster. How would you determine if this is so?
> 
> Gray Goose, Your experience suggests a very humid climate along with extreme fluctuations of winter temperatures. Have you considered that the buildup of ice inside the hive might be either a result of too little air flow or else could be addressed by using insulated hives?


The cluster is technically it's own enclosure. Typically in an non-insulated colony the temperature outside the cluster nears the outside temperature. The clustering bees shift and loosen the mantle to allow fresh air in and release excessive heat out (and CO2+H2O). The reason a disturbed colony (tapping on box) risks breaking the cluster is that excited bees generate excessive heat that they must release in order to not overheat. In the cluster scenario, heat loss through the hive wall/entrances is minimal as the bees are generating just enough heat to maintain cluster health. So the difference in inside and outside temperature is low hence the lower natural air flows. 

In an insulated colony, the hive enclosure is the main survival mechanism, bees are in very loose clusters to ~of -10 to -15C.. than they slowly start clustering up (hemisphere shape) vs in a sphere (my observations) as the hive walls R-Value is higher than anything the natural cluster can achieve. My singles tend to create a hemisphere using the top wall where as my double seemed to favour either the sidewalls or top and form a hemispherical shape against those. In an insulated hive the Tin is much higher than Tout so care must be taken when using top ventilation and limit the size to 3/4 OD or lower. From the charts you that after a lower entrance of 2.44 sqin the flow out of the top flattens out (this is a Bernouilli effect). This tells me top ventilation management is critical in insulated colonies. Many here (Yukon) use top entrances but limit their size and are very successful (+90% survival).

Here is a write-up I did for the BeesCene (BCHPA quarterly magazine). I will write a second part based on all of my data one day. Figure 6&7 shows the high correlation between the heat loss calculation (using Tout) vs Tin (using the hive geometry and R-Values) for insulated, but little relationship in the wood only enclosure and the reverse for the straight correlation between Tin vs Tout (Very high R2 in wood, but low in insulated). The other interesting find was that R2 (correlation) of the Wood colony for Heat loss vs Outside Temperature goes to >0.9 once broodrearing starts. 








North of 60 Beekeeping - Winter 2020 Monitoring


Do Bees Heat the Inside of the Hive in Winter? Published in the Winter 2020 BCHPA BeeScene To insulate or not to insulate? Not really a question most beekeepers in Canada have to ask themselves. We do have a few areas in BC, Southern Ontario where the bees will likely do fine without that extra




www.northof60beekeeping.com


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> water running down the hive wall (inside) and out the entrance froze, couple days completely blocked the entrance with ICE, from the inside. No slanted board would have helped.
> to have enough water for brood rearing in FEB, I had too much in dec and jan.
> did have a 1 inch by 3/8 upper entrance and the hives did survive.
> 
> GG


All else being equal, this should only be a problem in wood hives, right? Because of excessive condensation? Plywood over the entrance should keep the entrance clear in poly hives...


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> FP
> Yes am testing 5 units of the old "Buckeye hive"
> The Iced hives did survive BTW while the upper entrance ones did not fare as well.
> View attachment 66017
> ...


Those double walls with styrofoam inside look like my dad's Ul Warszawski Zwykly back in 70's in Poland


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Sean Govan said:


> All else being equal, this should only be a problem in wood hives, right? Because of excessive condensation? Plywood over the entrance should keep the entrance clear in poly hives...


no
the water froze as it came out the entrance. either a SBB warmer than outside air or no condensation would be the "answer" And IMO each of those is a problem.

define " excessive" excessive for the bees , for the cold, for the bottom board type.? I'm not sure you have your thumb on it yet. if water runs out of the hive at say 0 degrees F it will form ice until it freezes back to the entrance.

not sure I would use poly, but alas that is another thread.

it is a problem in cold and very cold, because the bee cluster is warm and moist, which it needs to be.
I've split wood in the winter, works great due to the wood being froze. IMO, bee trees, would have ice on the inside in cold and very cold places. problem? or water storage?

GG


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Yukon Bees said:


> The cluster is technically it's own enclosure. Typically in an non-insulated colony the temperature outside the cluster nears the outside temperature.



So at what out side temperature do you start to insulate, can you do it too early?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> So at what out side temperature do you start to insulate, can you do it too early?


my opinion
as i have a couple with insulation all the time, is, too soon is better than too late. at some point they lay out the nest according to the way the hive acts. once/when you insulate the hive then changes a bit or a lot depending on how you insulate.
the insulate would slow the inside hive temp swings so in the case here Tambient would take more time to shift Tin, giving the bees more time to cluster or partially block the suns heat for an uncluster. rapid inside temp swings IMO are bad, slowing them is good, so when the daytime and night time temps start to be widely varied it would make sense to be insulated. frost at night 70s durring the day to me is wide swings.

IMO once there is frost the insulation can be put on, that allows for the "locale" a date would be only good for a certain place in a certain year.

if it matters mine goes on around Oct 1st and is on now. i leave it as long as possible as the reverse it also true, the bees will make a brood nest they can keep warm, once the insulate is removed that changes. Again if it matters at Dandelion bloom I remove the insulate that is removable.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

My policy is to insulate around Thanksgiving or so about.
I go the Russian/Ukrainian style - insulate late so the bees are set as low as possible on the frames.
Especially the early top insulation is likely to cause the bees to set on the frame tops.

The only change this season - adding plastic too (I had planes for it anyway just due to the same concerns as discussed here).
Reusing the electronics zip locks - perfect sizing; heavy duty; #4 (food compatible).
This is all they get until about month away (depending on the forecast, but until we hit 10F or so I don't even care) - plastic and cloth on the top.


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

ursa_minor said:


> So at what out side temperature do you start to insulate, can you do it too early?


As Gray Goose mentions, it really depends. Here a few who like wood better are leaving their insulated shells on year round. Remember our early morning temps are as cold as some peoples winters.
I created a video a couple of days ago explaining how to create your areas temperature profile from a bee's perspective.





Here are 2 granular charts (daily values) showing cumulative average temperatures above 8C (Blue) and cumulative daily lows temperature below 10C. I typically do this using hourly data, but that data is getting hard to find. I use 10C to illustrate that most would colonies in a broodless state would cluster at Ts below 10C (no-insulation). You can see that Whitehorse (close to my location) has daily lows below 10C almost every day of summer. This is a reason why year round insulation works well here (or use polys). Remember bees in polys don't cluster until -10 to -15C. The lower chart shows values for Madison Wi. You can clearly see the daily lows are much higher.... You could technically do something similar for temps above 30C to calculate the potential benefit of insulation vs extreme heat (Cooling Degree Days)... The volume of area in red is proportional to your heating requirements (energy used by bees) for what ever setup you use. My setup reduces my heating load by ~50 to 75%.

I will create a quick follow-up video to show folks how to add the FDD8 (Forage Degree Days) which is actually very similar to GDD (Growing degree days)...
Note that every little blue line spikes during winter months are potential cleansing flights.


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## rdimanin (Jan 17, 2020)

GG, you should try poly, a lot of beeks in the UP use them successfully. I love woodworking & used to make my supers, SBBs etc, As a lark, I tried an Apimaye Ergo 10 frame double deep one winter a few years ago & was hooked. I have found that my bees beard less in poly than in wood during the summer & I don't have to screw around with insulation, wood chips etc in the fall. I can get away with 40 lbs of honey for a Detroit winter in poly, double that in wood. Try one, I'd love to hear your observations since you're much more experienced than I can ever be.(getting old-retire next year)


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

> From your charts, it appears the rate of air exchange increases as external temperature decreases. This appears to be a dramatic difference indicating significant air circulation changes probably related to cluster temperature vs external temperature. Just on a hunch, I think the air exchange rate at very low temperatures is too high likely causing stress in the cluster. How would you determine if this is so?


With no top ventilation higher air exchange is less of a problem because air which exits hive is at relatively lower temperature (some energy is transferred to input air). When outside temperature is low bees will consume more honey (and oxygen), increased ventilation is then useful and sort of self regulating.




> the water froze as it came out the entrance.


The regular entrance should be input only opening and output opening should be at little bit higher level of bottom board.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

rdimanin said:


> GG, you should try poly, a lot of beeks in the UP use them successfully. I love woodworking & used to make my supers, SBBs etc, As a lark, I tried an Apimaye Ergo 10 frame double deep one winter a few years ago & was hooked. I have found that my bees beard less in poly than in wood during the summer & I don't have to screw around with insulation, wood chips etc in the fall. I can get away with 40 lbs of honey for a Detroit winter in poly, double that in wood. Try one, I'd love to hear your observations since you're much more experienced than I can ever be.(getting old-retire next year)


hmmm
i retired this year
also like to work with wood and have 10,000 board feet of white pine in 10 inch and 7 inch, to make the deeps and mediums from. I make it all, only thing I have purchased is the wood bound Excluders.
i'll concede i would like them, but I have zero funds to buy hives and a lifetime supply of pine. Unfortunately I was let go from my 35 years at my job about 3 early, so I am at this time very strapped, and have the time and wood. If the double wall hive works , I likely will replace my current 40 or so with them. I can make them for the screws and paint, so it is a funding decision. 
Appreciate the insight, but the fact that they are "more/well" insulated makes me think my way will also work. 
I "might" spring for sensors, as I plan to find some part time work around new year time frame. the data tracking is intriguing.

I run 3 box hives and 40 Apimaye hives (120 boxes) would just be too much for me to invest.

I am a little more like GregV and try to do the bee thing for "almost free"

BTW if you want a site in the eastern UP PM Me I have a good one.

GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> hmmm
> i retired this year
> also like to work with wood and have 10,000 board feet of white pine in 10 inch and 7 inch, to make the deeps and mediums from. I make it all, only thing I have purchased is the wood bound Excluders.
> i'll concede i would like them, but I have zero funds to buy hives and a lifetime supply of pine. Unfortunately I was let go from my 35 years at my job about 3 early, so I am at this time very strapped, and have the time and wood. If the double wall hive works , I likely will replace my current 40 or so with them. I can make them for the screws and paint, so it is a funding decision.
> ...



I retired, I am a woodworker and this R6 insulation hood is ~ $21 for 3x 6 frame over 6 frame colonies. Under the hood top there is an R10 2" foam plate.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> IMO, bee trees, would have ice on the inside in cold and very cold places. problem? or water storage?


In fact, GG, you are correct - this is exactly what they have inside - ice.
There is plenty of documentation of exactly this.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

rdimanin said:


> GG, you should try poly, a lot of beeks in the UP use them successfully. I love woodworking & used to make my supers, SBBs etc, As a lark, I tried an Apimaye Ergo 10 frame double deep one winter a few years ago & was hooked. I have found that my bees beard less in poly than in wood during the summer & I don't have to screw around with insulation, wood chips etc in the fall. I can get away with 40 lbs of honey for a Detroit winter in poly, double that in wood. Try one, I'd love to hear your observations since you're much more experienced than I can ever be.(getting old-retire next year)


Poly hives are superior to wooden ones, this is clear from the above discussion in this thread.

Yes, 80 pounds of honey is consistent with previous references on overwintering requirements in that cold cold location in an inferior thin wooden lang hive.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> In fact, GG, you are correct - this is exactly what they have inside - ice.
> There is plenty of documentation of exactly this.


I did not know that I have surmised it after seeing what some hives look like and splitting lots of wood in winter. No way 10 watts of heat warms the whole tree.


GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

username00101 said:


> Poly hives are superior to wooden ones, this is clear from the above discussion in this thread.
> 
> Yes, 80 pounds of honey is consistent with previous references on overwintering requirements in that cold cold location in an inferior thin wooden lang hive.


There is this theory and practice in Poland that the bees in insulated hive consume in winter a* 1mm thick layer of honey above the cluster per day*. If your winter is 5 months long you will need 150mm of honey/sugar above your cluster. The plastic medium Lang frame has 150 mm deep comb. If you overwinter a cluster which occupies 6 frames you will need ~ 31lb of stores for 5 months winter. For 7 frames cluster ~36lb of stores.

This 31 lb sounds familiar, right Etienne?

In my case I have upper brood box full of capped 6 frames of stores. According to this calculations 200mm should last for 5 months of Chicago winter + early spring build up.
We will see in March 2021  BTW you can see my insulation and 6 frame boxes earlier in my post.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> I did not know that I have surmised it after seeing what some hives look like and splitting lots of wood in winter. No way 10 watts of heat warms the whole tree.
> 
> 
> GG


No way 10 watts of heat can warm a huge, live pine when in frozen forest in cold northern forest of Bashkorstostan (picture).
On the other hand, this huge thermal mass also shaves off the most extreme temperature swings both ways.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

username00101 said:


> Poly hives are superior to wooden ones, this is clear from the above discussion in this thread.


But are the poly hives superior to a well insulated wooden hive?


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

ursa_minor said:


> But are the poly hives superior to a well insulated wooden hive?


Despite me advocating insulation, I don't think they are superior. My ideal box is a 10 frame poly with 9 frames and 1 ea 3/4" pine board insert in both outside positions  The best of both worlds!!


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

jtgoral said:


> There is this theory and practice in Poland that the bees in insulated hive consume in winter a* 1mm thick layer of honey above the cluster per day*. If your winter is 5 months long you will need 150mm of honey/sugar above your cluster. The plastic medium Lang frame has 150 mm deep comb. If you overwinter a cluster which occupies 6 frames you will need ~ 31lb of stores for 5 months winter. For 7 frames cluster ~36lb of stores.
> 
> This 31 lb sounds familiar, right Etienne?
> 
> ...


That's about write.... Here was my calculation prediction in 2019, it was pretty **** close. This was before I started using my 3 sided wind extra 2" styro setup.. I used the coldest measure temp in hive and used it with Southwick's metabolic curve and converted Watts to Honey (lbs) energy equivalent


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Yukon Bees said:


> Despite me advocating insulation, I don't think they are superior. My ideal box is a 10 frame poly with 9 frames and 1 ea 3/4" pine board insert in both outside positions  The best of both worlds!!


I think your information has made a few of us northerners rethink some of the methods and wonder if, in high loss winters, it could be something we are missing in our winter set up. I would go poly if I could afford it, but as it not possible, the data you provide on insulation can be applied to my wooden ware set up and for that I am grateful you have allowed me access to it.


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## Yukon Bees (Dec 29, 2014)

This image is not to confuse but to show you the complexity of successful wintering. This from 10 years of trials/observations and reading tons of studies on wintering clusters biology, nutrition, management practices, diseases and building engineering science.... And a ton of data collection. For those interested in upping their monitoring game. Here is a short presentation I did a couple of years ago at a Hive Monitoring Conference - 












Blue boxes are things that we control... I should also add a risk of poor ventilation (risk in passive ventilation if no temperature difference exists between inside and out hive body).


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Poly hives are superior to wooden ones, this is clear from the above discussion in this thread.


I think the point of this thread is that poly hives are NOT necessarily superior. What I think is most important is how the hive is managed regardless of which hive type is used. Blanket statements are not very useful for beekeepers trying to sort out what works from what doesn't. If readers focus on the management actions taken for wintering, they will see that Etienne misses very few things in terms of preparing his bees for winter. Large healthy clusters of young winter bees with a young queen and abundant properly arranged stores go a long way toward getting a colony through winter.

One thing I still want to see is a serious effort to provide water to a highly insulated hive during winter. That would answer the question whether or not bees become water deprived in cold weather in an insulated hive.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

Fusion_power said:


> One thing I still want to see is a serious effort to provide water to a highly insulated hive during winter. That would answer the question whether or not bees become water deprived in cold weather in an insulated hive.


Providing condensed water should not be a problem, for example, 4 holes (sealed but not insulated) in 4 corners on top side of hive.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I'm fast beginning to appreciate that any commments I may have made in the past about my own experiences with insulation were totally irrelevant with regard to those operating within more challenging conditions.

I was particularly interested in something Yukon said a few posts ago about disturbances opening-up the cluster and causing heat loss into the cavity as a result - this reminded me of something I'd read years ago, and so I've just been searching through my archives to find it.

It was Phillips who mentions this (in the context of applying packing to outside wintering crates), but I took the opportunity to re-read some of his material, which people might find germane to this thread. He wrote many articles for the Farmer's Bulletin, but this is possibly the most relevant:
Everett Franklin Phillips, Outdoor Wintering of Bees, Farmers Bulletin, 1922


CAT31127850 directory listing



He also wrote a most excellent wide-ranging book (which has an excellent chapter on over-wintering):
Beekeeping, Everett Franklin Phillips, 1920


beekeepingdiscus00philrich directory listing



Within both of the above, Phillips makes frequent distinctions between beekeeping practices in the North, contrasted with those further South - not just over-wintering, but also regarding swarming, and makes the point that swarming becomes less of an issue the further South one operates, and illustrates this by examining areas even further South - into the tropics - where swarming then becomes a fairly rare event. I know the expression "all beekeeping is local" has become a rather tired and worn-out phrase, but it would appear to be of more significance than perhaps is generally recognised.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

viesest said:


> Providing condensed water should not be a problem, for example, 4 holes (sealed but not insulated) in 4 corners on top side of hive.


This does not work in Cold/Very Cold hydro-thermal regions - because it is just too cold to go to the cold hive corners.
And to compare, the milder regions don't even have this issue to speak of.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

little_john said:


> I'm fast beginning to appreciate that any commments I may have made in the past about my own experiences with insulation were totally irrelevant with regard to those operating within more challenging conditions.
> 
> I was particularly interested in something Yukon said a few posts ago about disturbances opening-up the cluster and causing heat loss into the cavity as a result - this reminded me of something I'd read years ago, and so I've just been searching through my archives to find it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for those publications. FYI: I went one directory up in those links and was able to download PDFs


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

_ Large healthy clusters of young winter bees with a young queen and abundant properly arranged stores go a long way toward getting a colony through winter._

Again - not in the North. Maybe in Alabama this is true, but not the north. In zone 5 or above, A large healthy cluster in an inferior thin walled wooden colony will starve to death on 30 pounds of honey, properly arranged or not.

One of the reasons that Poly hives are superior to thin lang hives because even in the Far, far north, like Michigan, or even Canada, a beekeeper can get a strong cluster through the winter on just 40 pounds of honey. Rather than 80.

This should be common sense. If A beekeeper needs literally 50% or less honey to get the same colony through the winter in a poly hive. That's superior.

From a financial perspective, what's the price of selling 40 pounds of extra honey they now don't need to leave on the colony? Or what's the cost savings of having to feed less sugar? One will realize that a poly hive will rapidly pay for itself over time, and especially because the bees will survive more frequently over winter.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> A large healthy cluster in an inferior thin walled wooden colony will starve to death on 30 pounds of honey


That might be what the word "abundant" means re having "abundant" winter stores. Quoting from above:
"Large healthy clusters of young winter bees with a young queen and abundant properly arranged stores go a long way toward getting a colony through winter."

Besides, what makes you think I've always lived in Alabama. I could tell you an awful lot about Corning Iowa and winter storms where the snowplows push it up 30 feet high to keep the roads cleared. Side note, I haven't thought about the Nodaway river in quite a few years, but the pheasant hunting can be prime. There is something about the feel of -30 degrees Fahrenheit with a 30 mph wind that will freeze your hands and put frostbite on your fingers in about 5 minutes flat. I don't think that holds up very well compared to Etienne with his -50 degrees or more. Maybe it would help a bit to focus more on discussing beekeeping than to worry about what or where someone else is keeping bees.

The best way to start is by saying something like "My name is Joe and I have a beekeeping problem" The rest of us will understand. After all, that is what 12 step programs are for.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

* Raises hand *

"My name is Username00101 and I have a wooden hive problem"


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

GregV said:


> This does not work in Cold/Very Cold hydro-thermal regions - because it is just too cold to go to the cold hive corners.
> And to compare, the milder regions don't even have this issue to speak of.


Top side is the warmest and question is in context of insulated warm and dry hive. The water is more needed when brood rearing starts and then temperature is higher.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

“I said, *'What we're trying to do is be smart about*,' and [*Buffett*] stopped me and said, *'I gotta be honest, for years, Charlie and I have always asked, 'What's the dumb thing we could do here?'“

So what would be stupid things we could do with top entrances , insulation, whatever, when preparing for winter in northern parts of USA and above border with Canada?*


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

This guy from Western Ukraine switched to the foam some years ago.

Works for him - his is a dedicated queen producer.
He even started now making his own hives.

Insulated, tightly closed top - ventilated bottom - all he does now days and on rather large scale.
These are 9-frame deep Dadant boxes.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

username00101 said:


> One of the reasons that Poly hives are superior to thin lang hives because even in the Far, far north, like Michigan, or even Canada, a beekeeper can get a strong cluster through the winter on just 40 pounds of honey. Rather than 80.


Wrap that thin lang in a styrofoam box and you have a hive that is just as good. I don't dispute that polys are great for northern areas, I just think that when we are talking about advantages of insulated hives we need to recognize that it is not just a poly hive that will achieve success in the north.

For me it is not the type of hive that I am interested in it is the moisture challenges we face with highly insulated hives in our cold winters.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> Wrap that thin lang in a styrofoam box and you have a hive that is just as good. I don't dispute that polys are great for northern areas, I just think that when we are talking about advantages of insulated hives we need to recognize that it is not just a poly hive that will achieve success in the north.
> 
> For me it is not the type of hive that I am interested in it is the moisture challenges we face with highly insulated hives in our cold winters.


Log into Facebook (Rick.Willams) has 50% poly and 50% wooden. He says, as I remember, that he is switching to poly because there is less work with them...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jtgoral said:


> Log into Facebook (Rick.Willams) has 50% poly and 50% wooden. He says, as I remember, that he is switching to poly because there is less work with them...


No question that wrapping (and unwrapping if you do) is time consuming. There may be a way to build something similar from lumber yard foam, Finding a reasonable way to put a tough surface on them cheaply seems to be a sticking point.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

crofter said:


> No question that wrapping (and unwrapping if you do) is time consuming. There may be a way to build something similar from lumber yard foam, Finding a reasonable way to put a tough surface on them cheaply seems to be a sticking point.


Just put it on. It takes couple seconds, no wrapping and unwrapping. I still have to store four of them somewhere if not on the hive.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> I still have to store four of them somewhere if not on the hive.


Storage is the problem.
Almost makes sense to dis-assemble for the summer and store the panels flat.
Who has the room to store so much air? I certainly don't.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I screw my panels directly onto the outer hive body. A large washer fixed with a screw, I then tape the seams with tuck tape. It all comes apart and lays flat.
For sure if you have multiple hives this can be a problem both with workload and storage. Not everyone has the same set up or space, but that does not make the functionality of the insulated wood hive inferior.

Each person does what fits their lifestyle, mine is slower so the time it takes is not a factor, neither is storage as I have plenty on the farm. I am just trying to figure out if this form of insulation will be sufficient and not cause multiple condensation problems in a hive.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

*honey consumption per season.*

Late summer/Fall is about 20 pounds per month, until some part of October/November.

Winter is slower, by a large margin. Colonies with 6 frames of honey by April 1st can have just brood by the 2nd week of May.

Round these parts, spring is an extension of winter. We'll get artic blasts pretty well into the middle of May.

question is: how does one work colonies with XPS around them after winter if not in poly hives?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If it is warm enough to work hives, the EPS is back in the barn.

Crazy Roland


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

XPS


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

ursa_minor said:


> I screw my panels directly onto the outer hive body. A large washer fixed with a screw, I then tape the seams with tuck tape. It all comes apart and lays flat.
> For sure if you have multiple hives this can be a problem both with workload and storage. Not everyone has the same set up or space, but that does not make the functionality of the insulated wood hive inferior.
> 
> Each person does what fits their lifestyle, mine is slower so the time it takes is not a factor, neither is storage as I have plenty on the farm. I am just trying to figure out if this form of insulation will be sufficient and not cause multiple condensation problems in a hive.


We do the same (Screw 1 " panels directly onto outer hive body, fixed w/ large washers), but leave the south wall exposed where bottom entry is. 

Most importantly; Top is a (screened) Deep filled 2/3 with shavings and then vented 'above' the shavings. 

The 'one' new thing we're trying out this season is poly over the brood nest (already placed). We'll see how that goes.....Eastern European's seem to have great success based on the vids being shared around this place.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Roland said:


> If it is warm enough to work hives, the EPS is back in the barn.
> 
> Crazy Roland





username00101 said:


> XPS


You don't think foam board can be called EPS? 

Here is what HD says ...











Here is an enlargement of the detail ...










From a beehive perspective, there seems to be little difference between EPS board and XPS board.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

1) XPS hives with solid bottoms and with ventilation via the top - start to 3:30
2) Bienenhaus with ventilation via the bottom - 3:30 to 9:30
3) Classic wood - the rest of the video

USDA Zone 3 in Urals, Russia.

Notice how the #2 is obviously different from #1 and #3.
Is it good that #2 is on the very top and so obviously active (while the others tightened up).
Unsure, but this experiment will go through the winter and will be reported on.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> You don't think foam board can be called EPS?
> [...]
> From a beehive perspective, there seems to be little difference between EPS board and XPS board.


That depends on how it's being used ...

The big difference between *E*xpanded *P*oly*S*tyrene and e*X*truded *P*oly*S*tyrene is that XPS is closed-cell and thus permanently 100% water-resistant - it's even used in yacht construction as a 'sandwich filler' - whereas EPS, although it's initially water-resistant and indeed will happily float on top of water, if it's allowed to remain in contact with water (or any form of wet) for any length of time, it will slowly begin to wick-up water in-between the polystyrene 'granules'. 

From a beekeeping perspective, this will reduce it's insulation properties dramatically. From an environmental POV, this can result in the EPS which is commonly used in packing ending up on the ocean floor. I have witnessed this first-hand while scuba-diving in Malta, where thousands of polystyrene coffee cups were found lying on the sea bed immediately in front of a seaside cafe, from where they had fairly obviously been chucked in.

An even better example was when removing some EPS module 'seed' trays from a commercial greenhouse where they'd been placed upside down, directly onto the concrete floor, as insulators beneath grow-bags used for cut-flower production. Over a year or two of soaking-up the standing water which had remained on the floor following irrigation, these had become so heavy that when I tried to lift them they broke apart due to their weight - it was like trying to lift blocks of solid water.

I use 3" thick blocks of EPS myself (I inherited several cubic metres of 1.5" EPS sheets, gratis) but only use it above solid Crown Boards (inner covers) where it does not come into contact with either standing water or the weather.
'best,
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> 1) XPS hives with solid bottoms and with ventilation via the top - start to 3:30
> 2) Bienenhaus with ventilation via the bottom - 3:30 to 9:30
> 3) Classic wood - the rest of the video
> 
> ...


So, it is also important to note how #1 and #3 have bees configured very similarly (XPS vs. wood).
It is simply because the XPS can be built and used just like the wood (and then the top ventilation/top insulation used to cool the bees or warm up the bees).


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> No question that wrapping (and unwrapping if you do) is time consuming. There may be a way to build something similar from lumber yard foam, Finding a reasonable way to put a tough surface on them cheaply seems to be a sticking point.


Frank
I was pondering this issue and came to the understanding that some "machinery" may be needed.
If I had the time and funding, I think like a garage door made with wood inside then foam then painted tin on the outside would be the way to go. use a thinnish wood 5/8 to 3/4 on the inside then 1.5 or 2 inch foam, then glue tin to the outside with metal broke around the corner to cover the foam and if possible tack it to the wooden interior. And while you are at it make the same type step the garage door has to prevent water from coming in, and add strength. the tin takes the weather wear, the foam achieves the "poly" and the wood is workable and breathable. with aluminum the extra weight would not seriously affect the weight of the hive. Of course different bottoms and tops would be needed. the lid could be made in a similar fashion.

One could also make panels of just the tin and foam and "screw" them to the side as mentioned in the thread. 1/2 of the edges would need the additional tin to make the corner.

Since I need 40 sets I need to think on it some more.

GG


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## John Kempf (Jun 30, 2021)

@Gray Goose I will be building about 300 boxes this winter, regular wood interior, than 1 inch XPS, than coated with EIFS paint.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

John Kempf said:


> @Gray Goose I will be building about 300 boxes this winter, regular wood interior, than 1 inch XPS, than coated with EIFS paint.


sweet
let us know how they work.
are you gluing the XPS to the wood?
Any kind of reinforcement in the corners?
I have looked at the drywall corner, like 3/4 X 3/4 glued on then painted could help with XPS protection.

good luck with the plan

GG


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Just wanted to note that Styrodur is a common product in the EU that is heat treated polystyrene. I don't know enough about it to comment regarding moisture tolerance or insulation ability. From what I can gather, there is EPS, XPS, and heat treated polystyrene each of which has advantages depending on use. Styrodur is used to make what we would call division boards and/or hive dividers which are left inside the hive more or less all year.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> Just wanted to note that Styrodur is a common product in the EU that is heat treated polystyrene............ Styrodur is used to make what we would call division boards and/or hive dividers which are left inside the hive more or less all year.


It maybe this material (depicted).
Bees hardly chew on it - very tough.


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## John Kempf (Jun 30, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> sweet
> let us know how they work.
> are you gluing the XPS to the wood?
> Any kind of reinforcement in the corners?
> ...


I am intending to glue on the XPS, and tape the corners with EIFS tape, then paint.

I will post photos once I have something to show.

The critical question will be how it holds up after a few years.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregV said:


> So, it is also important to note how #1 and #3 have bees configured very similarly (XPS vs. wood).
> It is simply because the XPS can be built and used just like the wood (and then the top ventilation/top insulation used to cool the bees or warm up the bees).


I thought you may like this one: 



 Just a little bit of snow as an insulation


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> I thought you may like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a little bit of snow as an insulation


hopefully close to spring opening them up will chill them a bit. the subnivium zone has been invaded.

GG


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## Outbackjak (Mar 20, 2021)

jtgoral said:


> Log into Facebook (Rick.Willams) has 50% poly and 50% wooden. He says, as I remember, that he is switching to poly because there is less work with them...


Used 1 1/2 xps and long drywall screws, I had some 6 inchers, and used 3" to keep from twisting. Just screwed into the foam. Works great...


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Earlier today I stumbled across an article entitled The Golden Age of Beekeeping which was centred almost entirely within New York State - it's worth a read. Link: https://www.researchgate.net/profil...den-Age-of-Bkpg.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Within that article the author mentions the need for a different approach to overwintering indoors (which was the traditional method at that time) for those hives located in out-yards, as there was not too much in the way of transport. back in those days. There was one photograph in particular which I thought was worth posting separately:










Very different from the 'standard' hives we see today - those would not look out of place in some of the Russian/Ukranian apiaries which Greg posts about. As you can see from the entrance porticos, there were two colonies housed in each per box.
'best
LJ


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

I have not even finished reading this thread yet. But one of the references shared by username is so interesting and enlightening for me that I can't help commenting already: The Nosema Problem: Part 7b - The Causes of Dysentery in Honey Bees: Part 2 - Scientific Beekeeping

Randy says, "The preferred sugar concentration for consumption appears to be in the 40-60% range." I did not know that. So they have to dilute honey THAT MUCH before they can use it... they have to double or triple the water content. WOW. Maybe common knowledge for some people, but not for me. Same goes for this:

Randy says that the water in their guts is transferred to their other tissues through osmosis, and then evaporated into the air with every breath they breathe. He also says that rainwater pooling on his bottom boards usually spells death or dwindling for his colonies. Could this be because they cannot keep the humidity low enough? *Can HUMIDITY cause dysentery when the humidity is uncontrollably high?*

Farther down in Randy's article, we find that *full guts can kill bees WITHOUT any symptoms of dysentery!!! *(Apparently, they sometimes would rather die than foul the hive).

I conclude that overly high humidity can cause winter death, _*even if there is nothing dripping on the bees. *_Interesting!!

It seems that full guts can kill the bees by preventing them from eating. (Perhaps this is because they run out of room). *So the stunning conclusion is that high humidity can cause starvation! *WOW! (But if I go around telling people that their bees can starve in the midst of plenty unless they tilt their hive forward, with no further explanation, I will look crazy.)

And now I'll just quote the bottom of the article, which is very dense with information which I for one did not know:

_The only factor showing any relation to the amount of accumulated feces was the moisture content. The dry matter in feces did not increase fast enough to be considered a causative factor of dysentery. The dilution of feces, however, is very conspicuous and increased as the season advanced and as dysentery became more apparent. The first bees left the cluster to discharge their feces around the entrance when the mean fecal accumulations amounted to 33% of the total body weight of the bees and when the feces contained approximately 80% moisture…The occurrence of dysentery is similar in protected colonies interrupted during the honey flow by rain. The bees are shut in and forced to eat unripe honey. Within a short time, the rectum expands and defecation may take place.

SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS_


*Dysentery of honeybees is caused by excess moisture in the feces.*
_This excess moisture is due to the consumption of dilute food or water. It is generally produced by crystallization of the stores; this divides the honey or syrup into a solid crystalline portion and a liquid portion. The liquid portion contains an excess quantity of moisture._
_Pollen, dextrin, minerals, burned sugar, and fermenting syrup do not produce dysentery._
_Chilling and disturbing honeybees may cause defecation, but do not produce dysentery in a healthy colony._
_Long confinement of bees during the winter, as well as a short confinement on unripe honey, produce dysentery._
_Water alone or dilute syrups produce dysentery in bees if absorbed during confinement._
_Dysentery appears when the fecal accumulations reach 33% of the total body weight of the bees. General defecation does not take place until the accumulation reaches about 45%._
*Practical application: Alfonsus’s paper did not mention nosema. Dysentery, rather than being a symptom of nosema infection, appears to be due to unmanageable moisture accumulation in the guts of wintering bees. I’ll wrap this series up in the next installment, in which I’ll cover the things that bees, and their keepers, can do to solve this problem*


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

How about bottom ventilation again:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> How about bottom ventilation again:


What about it?
The video you posted is about top ventilation.
The guy winters in single Lang/Root boxes, btw. 
In Western Siberia!


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregV said:


> What about it?
> The video you posted is about top ventilation.
> The guy winters in single Lang/Root boxes, btw.
> In Western Siberia!


You right. I listened watching it again. First time i watched only and came to wrong conclusions seeing melted snow around hive bodies. Sorry for that :-(


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> You right. I listened watching it again. First time i watched only and came to wrong conclusions seeing melted snow around hive bodies. Sorry for that :-(


These are the same hives pictures here - just before the snow (he shows how exactly they are setup):


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregV said:


> These are the same hives pictures here - just before the snow (he shows how exactly they are setup):


Those single boxes have no upper ventilation. He puts insulation above the cluster, it is a piece of foam or a pillow. This lets the humid warm air hit the side walls and condensate there.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> Those single boxes have no upper ventilation. He puts insulation above the cluster, it is a piece of foam or a pillow. This lets the humid warm air hit the side walls and condensate there.


You really should pay attention.
Here, marked the vents for you.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregV said:


> You really should pay attention.
> Here, marked the vents for you.
> View attachment 66249


There is a plastic foil between the Dadant brood box and the quilt box below the cover. Those holes do nothing because the foil makes the seal of the air in the brood box. Don't you think? After he replaces the foil with foam board he puts covers without holes. But it does not matter, even with holes, both sides of the holes are outside the quilt box, so they do not vent anything.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> There is a plastic foil between the Dadant brood box and the quilt box below the cover. Those holes do nothing because the foil makes the seal of the air in the brood box. Don't you think?


Pay attention already! 
He *removes *the plastic for winter.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregV said:


> Pay attention already!
> He *removes *the plastic for winter.


He has no ventilation holes in the quilt box. Those holes you mentioned do not vent anything, they are in the top cover and both sides of those holes are outside the hive.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> He has no ventilation holes in the quilt box. Those holes you mentioned do not vent anything, they are in the top cover and both sides of those holes are outside the hive.


I take it back. The top cover has inside the walls pieces of wood that are preventing the cover from resting on the quilt box with the top. The holes are exposed to the inside of the hive. You are right. Packers won and Bears lost again Take care until next Bears vs Packers game


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

If you look at the history, you will see that hives in the 1800's were often quite small, and that colonies were also quite small. AI Root was one of the first to buck this trend, which he said nearly ruined beekeeping. It is in his book, if anyone is curious let me know and I will find the reference. I have my dad's 1947 copy of "The ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture." it can be enlightening. His description of early experiments in foundation cell sizes is quite illuminating.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

While people argue, here is a guy who is actually testing poly hives against the traditional wood as we speak.
He setup the experiment and will be reporting through all way through.
Watch him.

Russia; USDA zone 3; Western Siberia

Go to 4:00 and see how bees are wintering in the poly (I don't like what I see; not at the moment).
Importantly, these are strong colonies, not some weak splits (i.e. nucs).

Go to 9:30 to see traditional double-deep Roots from x 2 wood wintering outside.
Here he will show what is going inside the double-deeps (I like what I see).





To compare, go to 13:00 and see how bees are wintering in a shed (I like what I see).


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The Danzenbaker hive was one of the early "too small" efforts to make a better hive. Langstroth's box size survived because he based it on the size of a natural cavity bees would inhabit. Danzenbaker's hive is a nearly forgotten piece of history.

That said, the failings of a Langstroth hive are why I converted to square Dadant.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

GregV said:


> While people argue, here is a guy who is actually testing poly hives against the traditional wood as we speak.
> He setup the experiment and will be reporting through all way through.
> Watch him.
> 
> ...


Could you translate for us and tell us what his results are?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> Could you translate for us and tell us what his results are?


Results will be at the end of the season.

But the observations are clear and are in front of you to see.
So far I don't like what I see in the poly hives with those large clusters.
Just look at the video, it is all right there. 
I already marked the video points to look at.

Translation is too much work to be doing it Friday night.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I thought the bottom video bees looked pretty good, but I had trouble finding anything pertinent between the 4:00 mark and the 13 minute mark.

The bottom videos bees looked good, I just saw quilt boxes with insulation orsome other contraption in thefirst video.

Didn't see any poly hives in any of those videos.

Honestly, It's not easy to understand and he seems to be using his own contraptions.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> I thought the bottom video bees looked pretty good, but I had trouble finding anything pertinent between the 4:00 mark and the 13 minute mark.


OK, starting 4:00 - observe closely how the bees in the poly's behave.
They are way, way active. Too active.
In both hives too.
You know what it means, right?
They eat too much.
As well as I suspect they will have exact same problem as discussed above - they will grow thirsty.

This is not good, granted today is December 2nd in Western Siberia and they have 5 months of no pooping ahead of them yet.
They better slow down but I have my doubts.

Bees in wooden Roots and in the shed are doing exactly what they should be doing - they are on a very slow idle.
Conserving resources and don't eat too much (saving empty space in their gut for later).


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Facebook Rick Willams (Log in or sign up to view) poly hive on Feb 26, 2021 north of Calgary, Canada😂 He has more bees than in the fall. He feeds sugar syrup at -15C.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

jtgoral said:


> Facebook Rick Willams (Log in or sign up to view) poly hive on Feb 26, 2021 north of Calgary, Canada😂 He has more bees than in the fall. He feeds sugar syrup at -15C.


I will have to follow him, thanks for that tip.

I too have wondered about feeding sugar syrup at colder temperatures in a well insulated hive. There were times when at minus temps this fall, I have pulled off the styrofoam, lifted up the down pillows and the blanket placed just atop my feeding shim ( covered with boards and plexiglass) was very very warm. Warm enough to keep the syrup at a temp. the bees would probably consume. 
But then, does the extra moisture from the syrup in the hive not cause problems later or do the bees eat the syrup and do not store it?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

That Russian beekeeper isn't using poly hives from what I can tell - he has some home brew 3 layer quilt box+ insulation, but the sides aren't insulated. Correct me if I'm wrong. Either way, I was not convinced his set up represented a poly hive.

What I am more convinced of is Etienne's data, which is more comprehensive, and accurate.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> That Russian beekeeper isn't using poly hives from what I can tell - he has some home brew 3 layer quilt box+ insulation,


Unsure how are you looking at things, UN.
Why am I even posting these videos, dunno.
Maybe I should stop this useless activity.

What are these Bienenhauses you think?
Homebrew...., LOL


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregV said:


> Unsure how are you looking at things, UN.
> Why am I even posting these videos, dunno.
> Maybe I should stop this useless activity.
> 
> ...


In part #16, I think, around minute 9:00 he shows even open screened bottom ventilation of his poly and plastic foil as an inner cover...


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> I will have to follow him, thanks for that tip.
> 
> I too have wondered about feeding sugar syrup at colder temperatures in a well insulated hive. There were times when at minus temps this fall, I have pulled off the styrofoam, lifted up the down pillows and the blanket placed just atop my feeding shim ( covered with boards and plexiglass) was very very warm. Warm enough to keep the syrup at a temp. the bees would probably consume.
> But then, does the extra moisture from the syrup in the hive not cause problems later or do the bees eat the syrup and do not store it?


He uses Canadian extruded poly boxes from https://bpgrower.com/langstroth-honeybee-brood-box


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Huh I must be seeing the wrong videos or something, either way it's a confusing, and not exactly quantitative format. The research Etienne has conducted which is far easier to follow, and has data to analyze.

Perhaps it would be helpful if he could summarize what he has learned in english for us?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> .......... and not exactly quantitative format ..........
> Perhaps it would be helpful if he could summarize what he has learned in english for us?


Like I said already:


> Results will be at the end of the season.


There is not much to summarize on December 3rd.

Don't wait for the numbers but watch the show live as it is folding out.
It is all in the visuals, I don't care if he to speak Chinese.
If I open a hive, I don't look for the numbers, *I look at the bees.* 
It does not matter what the beekeeper says - as l long as he does a good filming job it is all I care about.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Well, that might be a good separate thread, but here we're discussing already obtained data.

If someone is going to experiment with homebrew methods, that's great . A good topic for a separate thread.

Here, we're trying to keep the subject here focused on the results of Etienne's experiments and data sets, and information he presents.

As per the title of the thread.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

username00101 said:


> Here, we're trying to keep the subject here focused on the results of Etienne's experiments and data sets, and information he presents.
> 
> As per the title of the thread.


Sometimes the discussions move a little sideways we have even moved off into the weeds on how to fix styrofoam to a wooden hive, but we are also talking about the advantages of wintering in insulated hives. IMO the videos, even from other countries, can be relevant to the topic. 

It is going to be a nice addition to see how bees respond to a stand alone poly hive in winter conditions similar to mine. I like how he opens the hive so we can see how the cluster is situated.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Will see in March how my July graft queen does in a new BeeMax poly. I have R20 on the top of the poly roof. This is in Chicagoland


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

jtgoral said:


> Will see in March how my July graft queen does in a new BeeMax poly. I have R20 on the top of the poly roof. This is in Chicagoland


So 4" on top of an already insulated hive? Wow! In the south, so do not really 'need' insulation. Have built a few tops with pink or blue EPS built in, sides of top 1" or 2" wider than normal with the foam sandwiched between luan and off brand Advantec. (They were out of the real stuff that day...) 

Off topic, but like your choice of bricks. Retiring all my free chunks of wood since they were rusting my galvanized tops. Found the pavers in the garden section come in all sizes and weights and are often cheaper than real bricks.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> So 4" on top of an already insulated hive? Wow! In the south, so do not really 'need' insulation. Have built a few tops with pink or blue EPS built in, sides of top 1" or 2" wider than normal with the foam sandwiched between luan and off brand Advantec. (They were out of the real stuff that day...)
> ....


Just to make sure that attic is warmer then walls if it is true that 75% heat loss is through the attic. I hope to have condensation on walls not above bee heads....


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

Thank you for posting this. Very good information and discussion.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> Will see in March how my July graft queen does in a new BeeMax poly. I have R20 on the top of the poly roof. This is in Chicagoland
> View attachment 66477


After couple days around 0F temperatures got to 35F today. I took a ventilation box like the dark green on the right of the BeeMax poly and insulated each wall on both sides with 3/4in pink XPS board which gives ~R7. Then I placed the box under BeeMax cover and sealed with red tape like in the picture. This is a place for sugar bricks now and pollen paties in a month. When I opened the hive the bees were clustering on 5-6 frames, moving their bodies but they did not change the place. So they were active. The bees consumed less than 1/2 stores I left them two months ago. Just in the case I gave them a sugar brick like OTS guru from mdasplitter.com does. I saw no condensation at all. There is no upper entrance/ventilation opening but the bottom screen board is open for ventilation. Two months ago the stores were ~35lb...

Will see in a month how it goes.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> After couple days around 0F temperatures got to 35F today. I took a ventilation box like the dark green on the right of the BeeMax poly and insulated each wall on both sides with 3/4in pink XPS board which gives ~R7. Then I placed the box under BeeMax cover and sealed with red tape like in the picture. This is a place for sugar bricks now and pollen paties in a month. When I opened the hive the bees were clustering on 5-6 frames, moving their bodies but they did not change the place. So they were active. The bees consumed less than 1/2 stores I left them two months ago. Just in the case I gave them a sugar brick like OTS guru from mdasplitter.com does. I saw no condensation at all. There is no upper entrance/ventilation opening but the bottom screen board is open for ventilation. Two months ago the stores were ~35lb...
> 
> Will see in a month how it goes.


Added pollen substitute patties. All 13 of 13 hives alive and flying.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> Added pollen substitute patties. All 13 of 13 hives alive and flying.


Same. All 13 hives bringing pollen. I have a blooming Bush Apricot in my backyard. Hundreds of bees on it and one or two bumble bees.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

This is one of the most interesting and useful threads on this site. imo

Somehow the relevant data contained herein should be condensed and distributed in another thread....as I'm a confirmed 'tech-NO-peasent' I am not qualified. 

PS; We're still a couple weeks away from the first dandelions!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Episode 124: Sub-Arctic Beekeeping by Two Bees in a Podcast


In this episode of Two Bees in a Podcast, released on November 16, 2022, Dr. Jamie Ellis and Amy Vu speak with Etienne Tardiff, a hobbyist beekeeper in Yukon, Canada on sub-Arctic beekeeping. This episode concludes with a Q&A segment. Check out our website ufhoneybee.com for additional resources...




anchor.fm


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## moussy (4 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> Episode 124: Sub-Arctic Beekeeping by Two Bees in a Podcast
> 
> 
> In this episode of Two Bees in a Podcast, released on November 16, 2022, Dr. Jamie Ellis and Amy Vu speak with Etienne Tardiff, a hobbyist beekeeper in Yukon, Canada on sub-Arctic beekeeping. This episode concludes with a Q&A segment. Check out our website ufhoneybee.com for additional resources...
> ...


Thank you for the link! I’ve been poking around the insulted hive/condensing hive posts and trying to decide how best to accomplish it while also accounting for too much moisture and mold at the bottom of the hive. It almost sounds like Etienne keeps a screened bottom board on his hives and possibly keeps it open even during the winter? I was hoping he’d circle back and elaborate more, but I didn’t catch more details.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

He does. He has a YT channel, too.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

moussy said:


> Etienne keeps a screened bottom board on his hives and possibly keeps it open even during the winter? I was hoping he’d circle back and elaborate more, but I didn’t catch more details.


I believe he does but with the amount of snow that piles up I am not sure how ventilated it is. Snow is permeable to air so while allowing for some air exchange it would not be the same as a screened bottom that did not have the protection snow offers.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> I believe he does but with the amount of snow that piles up I am not sure how ventilated it is. Snow is permeable to air so while allowing for some air exchange it would not be the same as a screened bottom that did not have the protection snow offers.


This is how I protected my bottom screened board from snow: 2021_2022_winter [Jacek's Beekeeping]


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

jitgoral, I looked at the link, wonderful set up. I noticed that you use plastic as well to cover the frames.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> jitgoral, I looked at the link, wonderful set up. I noticed that you use plastic as well to cover the frames.


I can see bees through the clear foil without letting them out. Reflectix on top of the foil works like a gasket, so the foil is air tight under the pressure.


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