# top bar hives are a headache.



## phersbees (Mar 28, 2014)

ive started two top bars about two weeks ago. I opened up the hive today to find both hives built comb at 45 degs from the top bar. the bars have starter strips made from 1/8" wide wood strips and coted in bees wax. they started on starter strip but didn't fallow it on eather hive. bars are 1 3/8" wide and 20" long. entrance holes are 3/4 in and they only have one in eash hive. others are blocked for now. 


To me it seem like the top bars are nothing but trouble. My other hives never built outa frame. the top bars are all ways bearded out more and harder to inspect. only up side I can see is the easiness of building one. so far unless I can get these guys building right I have to give top bars a thumbs down


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

1/8th just isn't enough very likely the bees will ignore it.


----------



## phersbees (Mar 28, 2014)

well let me clear it up its 1/8 thick and 3/8s tall I coted them in wax then brad nailed it to top bars thru long side. they were really wedge bars from frames that got broke just extra.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Oh I see, that should have been OK.

Looks like since the hives are only two weeks old you will have to do some comb re-arranging & bend comb into the right place. If you can even end up with a couple of correctly built combs you can then put a bar between them & the bees will build that correctly, and just keep spreading that with more bars between. The hopeless comb can either be removed completely, or gradually moved into the honey area for eventual harvest and removal.`

I have had to "fix" several TBH's with cross comb as you have described, it may take some time, fiddling, and persistence, but it can be done.

I think TBH's are best suited to people who have time, and an ability to fiddle and persist, LOL.


----------



## larrybeach (May 25, 2013)

I know next to nothing about top bar hives, but I have thought of building one that will fit regular deep lang frames. Seems like would have the advantages of no lifting heavy boxes, but still have the ease of use of lang frames and foundation. Too busy right now, but I may build one next winter.


----------



## phersbees (Mar 28, 2014)

ok so moving the comb would something I can do. I just never had to do any of this with my other hives. ill give it a try. oh also I had to requeen a queen less swarm in one of them they built comb on the cage what about that?


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I've had good luck with comb, I use bars with a wedge milled in them. The worst I have had was some that was going on a slight angle and a narrow wedge brought it back straight again. TBHs are not for everyone. There require more attention and can easily go sideways (like what happened with you). Once you have several you can use comb from another hive when starting a new hive and you pretty much get straight comb. Make sure you boxes are level too. If you use an upper entrance by moving a bar back and let them come in that way you will probably end the bearding, or cut it way back. A lot of heat is generated in a hive and with no top venting it can get too hot in there.


----------



## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

you only need to leave the cage in a few days. then pull it. so they shouldn't build too much comb on it. 

once you get straight combs going then they will keep doing straight comb. fix it early before it gets nuts. maybe make a few hardware cloth bars. get a few bars centered up and they will build from there.


----------



## phersbees (Mar 28, 2014)

I just let the queen out she ran in the middle of the bee ball on the comb. as for the comb should I do the one with the fresh queen tomorrow or wait a little bit.


----------



## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

I'd make sure they are level side to side.. both of them. that could be part of the problem. Also open up more entrance holes. We have 3 on the end of ours and they open and close them as they want. 

Maybe fix the comb on the non re-queened one first.. depending on how it is attached you might be able to slice along the top part way and curve it straight and kinda mush it onto the starter strip. it will be very soft so keep them vertical. 

Patrick has a good video showing how to cut out comb and put it in a top bar. some of it will translate to what you're doing. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcGcLN8APTI


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

We leveled all three of ours meticulously. All three have built pretty much perfectly straight and centered combs. I wouldn't say it's perfect, but they pretty much have it sorted out. My brood bars are 1 1/4" and if anything it looks like they might prefer something more narrow. Most of my bars are all one piece wedge. However, I just made 105 bars with tongue depressors kerfed and glued in. They built three perfect combs on those as well. 

How level are your hives?


----------



## phersbees (Mar 28, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> We leveled all three of ours meticulously. All three have built pretty much perfectly straight and centered combs. I wouldn't say it's perfect, but they pretty much have it sorted out. My brood bars are 1 1/4" and if anything it looks like they might prefer something more narrow. Most of my bars are all one piece wedge. However, I just made 105 bars with tongue depressors kerfed and glued in. They built three perfect combs on those as well.
> 
> How level are your hives?


I didn't pull out the level but there eye balled. but do I need to brake out the 4' level on them? 1.375 to wide for bars? I was thinking about boxing them up and throwing out the top bars. may be make some supers out of them. :lpf: that would straighten them out.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

I am starting my first TBH this year and what I am doing to get some comb built be for I add bee's { I have a nuc for it} I put the top bars in my langs I just duck taped the top bar to a lang. frame and put it in the brood nest so I'm hoping it will work to build comb. I think a TBH will be fun.


----------



## plcnut (Mar 8, 2013)

You have to watch them, and straighten out the comb anytime you're in in the hive. If you have any lang comb, just rubber band a piece to a bar to get them started right. Mine have done a real nice job at keeping comb straight. I use all triangle comb guides. My first ones were two piece with the triangle glued on, but now in making all my bars one piece.









Each time I'm in the hives, I use my hive tool to mash any crooked comb back straight, and they fix it back up. This year has been very easy, because I just add new bars between straight comb, and they get it right the first time.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

PLCnut, I make mine basically the same, but on the ends of the wedge I miter the cut so that there isn't a big gap between the end of the wedge and the side of the hive. It is the pain in the behind part of making them.


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I had a TBH for one season. I traded it for two complete lang hives the next spring. It just wasn't for me.


----------



## plcnut (Mar 8, 2013)

shannonswyatt said:


> PLCnut, I make mine basically the same, but on the ends of the wedge I miter the cut so that there isn't a big gap between the end of the wedge and the side of the hive. It is the pain in the behind part of making them.


The photo makes them look square, but the ends of the wedges are angled to follow the hive sides.
They really aren't to hard to make. 
1) Rip "x4"x? at 45deg, with fence 3/4" from blade (You can do this twice with a 2x4 and get two sets of bars from it).
2) Flip piece end-for-end, and re-rip with same settings.
3) Chop bars to their total length (15" for me)
4) -
a) Set the table saw angle to match the angle of your TBH side-walls (24 deg for mine) 
b) Set the fence to the right of the blade by the difference of the hive width minus one frame rest (13-15/15" for mine) 
c) Set the blade height to 13/16"
d) Using your miter gauge stand each bar on the wedge and run through the saw (Repeat for both ends).
5) Set table saw blade height to the depth needed for the frame rest (11/16" for mine), and set the fence 3/4" from blade. Now run each bar through the saw standing up, with the 'top' of the bar against the fence to remove the frame rest.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Similar to what I do, but less cuts. I did some like that but I didn't like to run them through for the angled crosscuts with just the wedge against the table. I was worried one would get away and kick back badly. I'm going to make a crosscut sled just for the angled crosscut so they will sit firm and I can just push the sled through. 

The way that I am doing it now is I chop to length (19 inches), I rip to width (1 1/4), then I make the angled crosscut (I use 45 degrees, I don't want a hiding place for SHB), I make a tenon cut with a jig to remove the waste and create the rest, then I cut in the wedge. I have been testing the wedges with a bit shallower slope (35 degrees) to see how they work. I figured it would still be ok, we will find out soon.


----------



## mdax (Apr 29, 2013)

I was worried about the comb in my top bars
I followed Mr. Mangum's designs and put up 6 hives this year.







(not all frames are lang compatible)

The bees are pulling perfectly parallel comb in all boxes.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes the foundation strip is pretty much failproof. Although a wedge bar is favoured by many I get any TBH beginners I sell bees to, to use foundation strips & there is never a problem, these guys don't have any experience & need something that will work out of the box, no skill required.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

After 43 years of Langstroth use I last year started one top bar hive and four Warres for other people. After one season, my conclusion:

We all drive cars and trucks - 120 year old technology. Few of us use horses, pony carts, or dogsleds - old technology for daily transportation.
We all use computers, cellphones and smartphones - 30 year old technology. Few of us communicate using Pony Express, smoke signals, or telegraph. These are also old technology.

So why in the world would we use thousands of year old technology for our beehives and not 160 year old technology? 

Exactly: To me it seem like the top bars are nothing but trouble. My other hives never built outa frame. the top bars are all ways bearded out more and harder to inspect. only up side I can see is the easiness of building one. so far unless I can get these guys building right I have to give top bars a thumbs down.


----------



## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

maybe because for some of us we arnt made of money and you can build a top bar hive out of just about anything, heck I can get my hands on a 55 gallon drum, cut it in half and all I need is the bars, 2 cheap hive instead of having to fork over $160 for 6 unassembled mediums (2 hives, and you would probably need supers). Just because its new doesnt mean its better. Langs are not without their problems too, namely because its expensive and it alot of cases, back breaking work unless you remove one frame at a time.

Edit to add: And a number of people with both Langs and TBH report that their TBH are by far calmer than their langs when it comes to inspections, probably because you are not opening the entire hive up at once.


----------



## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Yes the foundation strip is pretty much failproof. Although a wedge bar is favoured by many I get any TBH beginners I sell bees to, to use foundation strips & there is never a problem, these guys don't have any experience & need something that will work out of the box, no skill required.


popsicle/craft sticks work great too. way easier to cut a 1/8" deep kerf cut right down the middle of the bars and glue them in. no fancy angled cuts and indented edges.. just flat 1 1/4- 1 1/2" chunks of 2x4 sliced and then grooved. 

And Frank thousands of people use Top bars with limited issues. people have issues with Langs too, i'm guessing it wasn't always perfect for you either. From what i gather, Warre's aren't meant to be messed with much. Top bars you don't need to mess with much either once you get them started on straight comb.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Not so sure top bar hives are cheaper. Based on what I see for sale commercially they are a lot more expensive.

If they can be made cheaply by using scavenged free wood, so can langstroth boxes and lids, every bit as easy or probably easier than making a top bar hive. Just the frames would be easier to purchase than make for most people, but you can get 30 of them for less than 20 bucks, and that would be a bigger hive than most top bars, and like top bars, you can allow bees to build their own comb in langstroth frames if you wish.

Not knocking top bars in general, just, I think the often touted cost difference is a fallacy, it is always based on someone building a top bar for nothing from scavenged free wood, compared to buying a complete commercially built langstroth from a retailer, so apples are not compared with apples.


----------



## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Not so sure top bar hives are cheaper. Based on what I see for sale commercially they are a lot more expensive.
> 
> If they can be made cheaply by using scavenged free wood, so can langstroth boxes and lids, every bit as easy or probably easier than making a top bar hive. Just the frames would be easier to purchase than make for most people, but you can get 30 of them for less than 20 bucks, and that would be a bigger hive than most top bars, and like top bars, you can allow bees to build their own comb in langstroth frames if you wish.
> 
> Not knocking top bars in general, just, I think the often touted cost difference is a fallacy, it is always based on someone building a top bar for nothing from scavenged free wood, compared to buying a complete commercially built langstroth from a retailer, so apples are not compared with apples.


I've built a cedar Top bar hive for around $60 and pretty quickly (including gluing up 1x8 boards to be wider) 

5 x pine 8 frame mediums with frames probably $40? but it took a lot longer with the box joining and frame cutting/assembling (foundationless). Is definitely more difficult to build for a non wood worker. 

Commercial top bars are $$ and made of pricey wood. usually have a fancy roof. 

After building both, I'd rather make another top bar hive. it looks nice, I like the obs. window, no parts to store. I don't have bees for my Lang yet so I can't compare how working them is.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well you did well making the frames JakeDatc, personally I wouldn't recommend that for the average person, they are very intricate, but can be purchased for a modest cost.


----------



## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Not so sure top bar hives are cheaper. Based on what I see for sale commercially they are a lot more expensive.
> 
> If they can be made cheaply by using scavenged free wood, so can langstroth boxes and lids, every bit as easy or probably easier than making a top bar hive. Just the frames would be easier to purchase than make for most people, but you can get 30 of them for less than 20 bucks, and that would be a bigger hive than most top bars, and like top bars, you can allow bees to build their own comb in langstroth frames if you wish.
> 
> Not knocking top bars in general, just, I think the often touted cost difference is a fallacy, it is always based on someone building a top bar for nothing from scavenged free wood, compared to buying a complete commercially built langstroth from a retailer, so apples are not compared with apples.


Ok, several issues...
1. Commercially made TBH are quite in-fact, overpriced. You are paying $300 for some pretty wood and a nice looking hive, thats it. It has no advantage over the TBH your local Beek at the BKA built for $5 out of scrap. none, other than roof, and that can be made pretty cheap
2. Langs CAN be built by yourself, BUT, they often require tools that many/most dont have. Even if I spent $18 (I think thats the price for 1'x12'x8') on the wood at Lowes for the hive body to build three mediums, lets still tack on the frames which are $15 for 10 at the local bee store (same price once you include shipping), thats $45 alone just on frames. total price comes out to $63. $25(I think) for a 1x12x12 is enough for a 4ft TBH, a 1x6x4 is another $6 and 8 1x2x8 for $8 is enough for a top bar hive which comes out to under $40, still cheaper. But hey, if you have 10 hives, thats $200 richer you just made yourself.
3. I did not mention buying a complete comercially built hive, a already built hive runs $125 for a single deep, cover, bottom board... yadda yadda yadda. No thanks
4. I built my massive TBH (could fit two good sized colonies) for about $45 and used hand tools, though I did cheat a bit and cut out an entrance with a jigsaw, but two nails (stops) at the top to act as stops for the first bar would work as well.


----------



## phersbees (Mar 28, 2014)

I cost me about 50 cents to bulid a deep super for hardward. I use pallets to make supers they are getto looking but just as good as the other store bought when comes to function. frames are 99 cents I don't use foundation. so 10.40 in a hive. you can bulid it with just a circularsaw hammer and nails. 

so cost is not a problem. 


problem is the time it takes to manage one hive vs the other. one top bar is nothen but 20 or 30 topbars:no: would drive you crazy if they go like the ones ive been trying.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Swings and roundabouts.

A fair test of the real cost, is what it can be made for commercially, as they have to buy all materials not find something on the scrap heap.

This, from the same supplier, Dadant.

Fully assembled top bar hive $224.95, fully assembled and painted lang, 115.45

http://www.dadant.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=22

In addition, the lang is expandable with more fully assembled deep supers able to be added for $60.53 each. You would have to add another two of these supers before the hive became only slightly more expensive than the top bar, but it would be a bigger hive and yield considerably more honey.

However, depending on how someone works it either hive can be made expensive or cheap. My own first hive was a lang, I was 12 years old and built it in the school woodwork shop. It was made from timber I had collected from rubbish piles, I made the frames and everything, with my schoolboy skills it took me months but the total cost was zero.


----------



## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

plcnut said:


> You have to watch them, and straighten out the comb anytime you're in in the hive. If you have any lang comb, just rubber band a piece to a bar to get them started right. Mine have done a real nice job at keeping comb straight. I use all triangle comb guides. My first ones were two piece with the triangle glued on, but now in making all my bars one piece.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could you post how you make your one piece bars...steps and photos for the DIY challenged? Thanks


----------



## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Swings and roundabouts.
> 
> A fair test of the real cost, is what it can be made for commercially, as they have to buy all materials not find something on the scrap heap.



Just how is that a "fair test of real cost?" I just posted the cost for purchasing the lumber needed for a suitable TBH from Lowes, doesn't come anywhere close to $225 and they arnt that hard to make especially if they have a full wood working shop. Like I said, you can build one yourself with a hammer (or drill) and an hour or two, if that.



> However, depending on how someone works it either hive can be made expensive or cheap. My own first hive was a lang, I was 12 years old and built it in the school woodwork shop. It was made from timber I had collected from rubbish piles, I made the frames and everything, with my schoolboy skills it took me months but the total cost was zero.


And you had access to the tools needed to make a lang hive, most do not. I for one dont have several hundred dollars laying around to buy some nice power tools required to make a lang hive, nor the experience needed.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

The commercially available TBHs are way, way, way over priced. There are some vendors on Beesource that sell them in the $150 range with bars that is closer to reality for a commercial product. For some reason a lot of folks are attracted to TBHs right now and folks are doing some profit taking. Now a days a lot of folks have zero skills at building stuff, so they probably look at the cost is just what it is versus saying "Heck, I could make one of those for 1/4 the cost". 

Large scale management of TBHs would be a headache. But having a dozen or so isn't so bad as long as you stay on it. It takes a while to get established. It is like starting a Lang from a couple frames in June and no drawn comb. Don't expect a 5 story monster with 100 pounds of surplus in the fall, it ain't gonna happen.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sovek said:


> And you had access to the tools needed to make a lang hive, most do not. I for one dont have several hundred dollars laying around to buy some nice power tools required to make a lang hive, nor the experience needed.


No I didn't. Not that it really matters but I had no power tools just a hammer, saw, and a chisel. Skills? I had as much skills as an average 12 year old. Like I said it took a few months, but I had time after school and schoolboy determination. Anyone could do it.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I don't have anything against top bars-- in fact I built one, but haven't put any bees in it. Why? Because before my first bees came, I realized that a long Lang has all of the advantages of a top bar, and few of the disadvantages. The great innovation that Langstroth came up with was a good simple system for movable frames. Using sticks across a trough will certainly work, because lots of folks are doing it and are happy with the results, but frames are really really helpful in manipulating comb.


----------



## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> Yes the foundation strip is pretty much failproof. Although a wedge bar is favoured by many I get any TBH beginners I sell bees to, to use foundation strips & there is never a problem, these guys don't have any experience & need something that will work out of the box, no skill required.


This needs to be repeated! Why anyone would recommend anything other than this to a beginner installing into an empty hive just isn't right in my mind.


----------



## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Delta Bay said:


> This needs to be repeated! Why anyone would recommend anything other than this to a beginner installing into an empty hive just isn't right in my mind.


Depends on how much you want to keep contaminated wax/foundation out of your beehive. I will pass on foundation myself, but hey this is America and you are free to do what you wish.


----------



## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

I wanted to make a TBH when I first got bees, it looked so easy to make. Then I talked to an old beek, he said, "Bees move up not sideways, it don`t get cold in Kenya, it does here, the cluster moves up and hit a top bar and starves". That made all the sense I needed to hear. Also can you get 100 pounds of honey from a TBH?,,,,,,,Pete


----------



## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

oldiron56 said:


> I wanted to make a TBH when I first got bees, it looked so easy to make. Then I talked to an old beek, he said, "Bees move up not sideways, it don`t get cold in Kenya, it does here, the cluster moves up and hit a top bar and starves". That made all the sense I needed to hear. Also can you get 100 pounds of honey from a TBH?,,,,,,,Pete


Top bars aren't for commercial honey production so getting 100lbs isn't the goal. we took 3 combs off last year and still have some jars left. 

See Sam Comforts hives in NY and people on here has them in Canada and Alaska.. Cluster is a cluster. our hive in CT came through the winter fine with no feeding when Langs all over were freezing.. so.... 

as far as horizontal... apparently those hives in between rafters are doing it wrong then. i do hate it when nature adapts to what is available and doesn't follow a set blueprint for what they SHOULD do....


----------



## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Duncan151 said:


> Depends on how much you want to keep contaminated wax/foundation out of your beehive. I will pass on foundation myself, but hey this is America and you are free to do what you wish.


If this is important you also wouldn't want to use bees that have been living on contaminated wax as they will at first produce contaminated wax. If starting with clean bees possibly there is a source of clean wax to be had for making foundation starters. One sheet of foundation to get a beginner off on the right track is not the end of the world. Once they have a few good straight combs that has the mid rib centered on the bars just about any type guides can be used.


----------



## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

as far as horizontal... apparently those hives in between rafters are doing it wrong then. i do hate it when nature adapts to what is available and doesn't follow a set blueprint for what they SHOULD do....
Bees that chose a spot like that are doing what they have to do, not natural,but they adapt. Bees evolved in hollow trees vertical, until man made floor joists.and rafters,. JMO, but I could be wrong,,,,,,Pete


----------



## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

They didn't adapt to having most of their honey removed by commercial folk and fed back sugar syrup but they adapted to that too.....


----------



## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Delta Bay said:


> If this is important you also wouldn't want to use bees that have been living on contaminated wax as they will at first produce contaminated wax. If starting with clean bees possibly there is a source of clean wax to be had for making foundation starters. One sheet of foundation to get a beginner off on the right track is not the end of the world. Once they have a few good straight combs that has the mid rib centered on the bars just about any type guides can be used.


I am not sure that I buy into all that. While there might be a small amount of contamination in a bee that would transfer to the wax, I am sure that that level of contamination is much less than what is in the wax that is used for foundation. If the bee itself was that contaminated, it should be dead.
Either way, everybody is free to do what they like. I will not use foundation, unless it really meets a need that justifies the risks.
As for the OP, I think that all bee hives can be a pain, if they were not there would not be a flood of questions on Beesource about all the problems people are having. I had very good luck last year with three hives started with no follower boards, or any other comb guide besides a triangular piece of wood. The 4 packages I started last week are all off to the same start with nice straight new comb. 
If you think that TBHs are a pain, use something else, but I personally do not give up on any project that quickly.


----------



## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

I have both Langs and Top Bars, and I sell both top bar nucs and Lang nucs. I also sell a basic top bar hive with a plywood cover for $100. Can folks make their own top bar hive cheaper than $100? Sure they could, but most of my customers live in urban areas and are what I would call upper middle class. They have neither the time nor the experience with tools to make their own hive. They would much rather buy one from me and the bees that go with it. The days of everyone having basic wood working skills and tools in the shed are over. I will agree that some of the top bar hives out there are way overpriced, but someone must be buying them or they would not be selling for that much. 
As far as wintering issues, they winter the same.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

oldiron56 said:


> I wanted to make a TBH when I first got bees, it looked so easy to make. Then I talked to an old beek, he said, "Bees move up not sideways, it don`t get cold in Kenya, it does here, the cluster moves up and hit a top bar and starves"'


Old beeks say a lot of stuff other old beeks told them. They aren't always right.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I'm not crazy about putting starter strips in bars. To me it would be like buttering a piece of toast. I know that within 5 minutes I would drop it and it would fall butter side down. Wedges do great by themselves, I don't think I would have had better luck with starter strips than wedges, and I can store bars with wedges without fear of them breaking off, or having the strip fall of the bar and collapsing the comb with the bees on it.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"Bees move up not sideways, it don`t get cold in Kenya, it does here, the cluster moves up and hit a top bar and starves"'

That's why Dennis Murrel keeps them in Cheyenne WY, USDA zone 5, and I have some on zone 5 and they do fine... I only keep a couple right now, but one of those has a colony that survived the last six winters...


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I was amazed that mine survived the bitter cold this year. That was with zero winter prep, so no extra insulation. It was the same configuration in January that it had been in July.


----------



## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

And bees will starve in Langs just as they will in TBH, watched enough videos on youtube where people have had bees starved even with several frames of honey. I've never bought into that "Bees build vertical" bull, cause we see them in soffits, limbs, and under houses that have been there for years without a problem.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

About the contaminated wax issue, I've never seen it raised when someone says they painted some wax on their comb guide, it only ever seems to be raised if someone uses foundation strips. The concern may be more a mask for anti foundation sentiment, but a bias against a 1 & 1/2 cell wide foundation strip is just philosophical rather than real, unless there is one massive amount of contamination in the wax.

As to combs breaking off easier if started from strips rather than wedges, people have rung and asked me to help fix their hives after some combs dropped off, but it never tears right off the wood, the break is usually slightly lower down I have never seen one come right off the wood so don't think it can be an issue. However when making bars people should use a rough sawn rather than dressed surface at the part where the bees will attach the comb.


----------



## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> About the contaminated wax issue, I've never seen it raised when someone says they painted some wax on their comb guide, it only ever seems to be raised if someone uses foundation strips. The concern may be more a mask for anti foundation sentiment, but a bias against a 1 & 1/2 cell wide foundation strip is just philosophical rather than real, unless there is one massive amount of contamination in the wax.
> 
> As to combs breaking off easier if started from strips rather than wedges, people have rung and asked me to help fix their hives after some combs dropped off, but it never tears right off the wood, the break is usually slightly lower down I have never seen one come right off the wood so don't think it can be an issue. However when making bars people should use a rough sawn rather than dressed surface at the part where the bees will attach the comb.


agree about the breaking.. we used craft sticks glued in 1/8" ish deep and they build all the way around it and onto the top bar and it's welded on there very solidly. If the comb breaks it is because it was turned wrong or very soft. i'd assume you'd glue or melt foundation in so that it would stay the same way. As far as storing extras.. if you stored them vertically in a rubbermaid or something they'd be fine.


----------



## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> About the contaminated wax issue, I've never seen it raised when someone says they painted some wax on their comb guide, it only ever seems to be raised if someone uses foundation strips. The concern may be more a mask for anti foundation sentiment, but a bias against a 1 & 1/2 cell wide foundation strip is just philosophical rather than real, unless there is one massive amount of contamination in the wax.


I do think the same thing about painting wax onto top bars, but if someone wants to waste their time doing something unnecessary, they are probably not going to think that the contamination matters much either. It probably does not in the small amount that sticks to a wedge, but to each their own. I have nothing against foundation, but see no use in wasting my time there either. I do not have to buy it, install it, fix it, or store the unused amount. I would rather tinker with figuring out how to build a pollen trap to fit my hives, than tinker around with foundation.


----------



## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> If you think that TBHs are a pain, use something else


I don't think they are a pain. I've been doing the TBH thing for 7 years. All my combs are interchangeable in the 30 colonies I have. What is a pain is newbees that know very little about bees getting into trouble and having no idea how to clean it up. For many, just getting acquainted with their bees is enough, being discouraged with the system like the original poster does nothing. It's not about having a life long relation with foundation. 
Things seem to have worked out for you and that's great but the whole picture shouldn't be about one individual.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

rhaldridge said:


> I don't have anything against top bars-- in fact I built one, but haven't put any bees in it. Why? Because before my first bees came, I realized that a long Lang has all of the advantages of a top bar, and few of the disadvantages. The great innovation that Langstroth came up with was a good simple system for movable frames. Using sticks across a trough will certainly work, because lots of folks are doing it and are happy with the results, but frames are really really helpful in manipulating comb.


Ray raises a good point, so much debate over langs and hives in general is around the shape of the box. After the standard lang, came other hives of slightly different dimensions each claiming their hive is better. Rose hive for example. But the Reverend's main interest was in moveable combs, and an understanding of the bee space. I don't think he would have been concerned at all about various different hive shapes, although the dimensions he eventually designed are functional, good for bees, and have endured.


----------



## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

I have no carpentry skills and no expensive tools either and yet still managed to built my own langs. I don't see much difference in complexity btw. the systems.









I think it really pays to have a cheap circular table saw or even just a hand circular saw. I think beekeepers need to become basic carpenters.


----------



## Terk (Mar 13, 2013)

For me the first top bar was a headache because I don't have a table saw. Then I learned how to use the right bits with a benchtop router and am now making perfect cuts every time, such as for box joints, making observation windows flush with the inside wall, getting the removable floor/oil tray to perfectly mate with the bottom of the hive which has 60 degree walls, making hinge inlays, dovetails, etc. After making several mistakes in learning to use a router, I had enough wood to make necessary jigs and sleds for every project except Langstroth handles; so I make Warre handles.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I made a bunch of hives with a skilsaw. I even made bars with wedges in them by making some jigs and did all the cuts with a skilsaw. I made around 300 bars that way. But I ended up getting a Dewalt jobsite saw off of Craigslist. It isn't a great table saw, but it was $150, and it beats the hell out of a skilsaw. I ended up re-milling most of the skillsaw bars this spring.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm pretty good with a skilsaw. (Decades of practice) I built this one with just a skilsaw before I bought a $60 table saw from Home Depot...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm


----------



## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

Phersbees, I will tell you what your TBH is really good for. 
I have had one in operation for going on 3 years now, and I hardly ever open and do anything with it at all anymore. I just let the bees do whatever they do and they seem to be doing fine all this time. I don't even collect honey from it anymore since I can just use foundation-less frames in Langs if I want that kind of honey.

A TBH is great for producing swarms. Over the last 3 years I have gained 5 colonies from catching swarms just from that one TBH. I know of one and I don't know how many more that have gotten away or gone un noticed. 

When a swarm first leaves the hive they don't go far if there is somewhere close by to land. 
I suggest planting one or two bushes or small trees close to the front if your hive.


----------



## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

LampBurner said:


> A TBH is great for producing swarms. Over the last 3 years I have gained 5 colonies from catching swarms just from that one TBH. I know of one and I don't know how many more that have gotten away or gone un noticed. When a swarm first leaves the hive they don't go far if there is somewhere close by to land.
> I suggest planting bushes or small trees within about a I suppose 40 ft radius around the front if the TBH.


Or for making splits, just lop off a few combs with bees and/or queen cells, place in the middle of some straight comb and be done with it.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Boy this thread sure makes me want to start the TBH I have .:s
I plan on putting bees in my TBH soon so I'll know in a year how they are .
I am putting my TBH by my house it will be fun to watch and mess with .
It is just one more goal in beekeeping to me I'll make it work can't be that hard.


----------



## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

GLOCK said:


> Boy this thread sure makes me want to start the TBH I have .:s
> I plan on putting bees in my TBH soon so I'll know in a year how they are .
> I am putting my TBH by my house it will be fun to watch and mess with .
> It is just one more goal in beekeeping to me I'll make it work can't be that hard.


Nope, not that hard! You just have to be willing to learn and try something different!


----------



## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

GLOCK said:


> Boy this thread sure makes me want to start the TBH I have .:s
> I plan on putting bees in my TBH soon so I'll know in a year how they are .
> I am putting my TBH by my house it will be fun to watch and mess with .
> It is just one more goal in beekeeping to me I'll make it work can't be that hard.


Nope, not that hard! You just have to be willing to learn, and try something different!


----------



## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

For any one putting a TBH into operation I think I will recommend full 100% shade for a TBH especially in the summer.

I'm not really sure how necessary that would be in Northern states but I think I recommend it anyway.

Reason is because I have heard of the comb just falling off the bars on to the floor of the hive from the heat.

I gratefully have not had that happen in the 3 years I have had one in operation, but mine has 4x8' sheet of P.T. plywood roof over it and that just might be why. The roof is only barely high enough to stand under.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I haven't had that happen, and my hives are in full sun, with evening shade. The only problem I have had with comb was when I first started and like a noob I twisted the bar. I think everyone does that at least once.


----------



## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

shannonswyatt said:


> I haven't had that happen, and my hives are in full sun, with evening shade. The only problem I have had with comb was when I first started and like a noob I twisted the bar. I think everyone does that at least once.


Twice, I am hard headed!


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

My foundationless long hives are in full sun, and I've never had a comb fall off. The problem with putting the hives in the shade is small hive beetles. That's a real problem.


----------



## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

You have a point there. There isn't hardly anything that can be done to even control those in a TBH because can't even put beetle blasters in there. Have you tried and had any luck with those CD case traps or corrivated plastic with Boric acid and Crisco on them. I have tried but no luck. Too bad we cant eradicate those things. 
When I'm working the hive they seem to know I want and plan to mash them so they actually run and hide underneath the bees.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

The CD traps haven't worked for me. I have SHB in my hives, but only weak hives have had problems. The only one that was slimed was a nuc that didn't make a queen , and dwindled while I was out of town. What a mess!


----------



## mdax (Apr 29, 2013)

I've installed beetle blaster entrance traps on a couple of my top bar hives this year. 

I think a strong population of bees covering all comb is the best way to combat SHB's...but I live in an extremely shaded area and have to combat SHB's every way I can.








(the open slot on the side is where oil trap goes)


----------



## Backyarder (Mar 25, 2014)

The hardest part of beekeeping so far has been patience. 
The first Lang hive that we put a swarm in is doing great, almost three mediums full already. It has a screened IPM board base.
Just hived a second swarm last week in another Lang with a solid bottom. 
Now we have a three pound carni package in a top bar.
I think the next will be another Lang with top entrance.
When my wife and i were discussing what kind of hive we wanted there were pros, cons, and opinions all over the map. Finally decided we wanted 5-8 hives, why not try a little of everything. 
My opinion may change but for now I see no reason to lock myself in to one "Best" way.


----------



## TheGeneralsBees (Feb 17, 2013)

I like my top bar hives, no boxes to lift, nice and simple. But, this year I tried a couple of Langs and discovered that they are really nice. I like being able to pull a frame from here or there without having to start at one end or the other to do an inspection like I have to do in the TBH. But I don't like lifting boxes. I am going to build a long Lang and convert one of the Langs over to that. I suspect that the long Lang will end up being my preferred setup.


----------



## Backyarder (Mar 25, 2014)

I think i may need to add a long Lang before it gets to late this year. 
Next year I will be saying warre and rose


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I love my long Langs. But they make a scary amount of bees sometimes.


----------



## Backyarder (Mar 25, 2014)

They may fit in to my master plan then. I would like to turn my first three hives into 8 this year.


----------



## TheGeneralsBees (Feb 17, 2013)

Backyarder said:


> Next year I will be saying warre and rose


Don't Warre, Bee Happy.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Backyarder said:


> They may fit in to my master plan then. I would like to turn my first three hives into 8 this year.


Backyarder, I wrote a little booklet for the Kindle on the way I make my long hives, and keep them. You can find it by searching Amazon for my name-- Ray Aldridge. I went for cheap, sturdy, and easy to build. The booklet has dimensions, and pics. You've probably seen pics of my hives before, since I post them too much, but I can't resist...


----------



## Backyarder (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks! I will check it out.


----------



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Langs are a headache too! I have both but prefer the TBH. Why is a Lang a headache? Have you ever picked up a lang box full of bees or honey and dropped it? Have your bees made a mess of comb in between your foundation because they don't like the foundation? Has your back gone out yet from listing those heavy boxes? What about the storage space you need for all the boxes you are not using all winter long? These are all headaches (or back aches) from using the Lang boxes. Neither is perfect, they are just different. Finally, someone mentioned earlier that they heard bees will not move horizontally in the hive. I have heard the same garbage too. Give me a break. Are your Lang boxes one frame wide and thirty boxes tall? How do they get from frame one in any box over to the tenth frame? Clearly they move horizontally all the time.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but I know that there are folks with Long hives on this thread. Are you guys running deeps or meduims? I know that M Bush is running mediums (at least I think I remember that). I'm considering building one, I probably wouldn't design it for supering since my goal is to not lift heavy stuff. I was thinking that deep frames would be more cost effective, since I would have fewer frames in it if it was a deep hive. On a related note I saw a deep from a gentleman on the internet that runs deeps and makes frames so they hang sideways. I kind of like that idea, but I don't want to get into the frame making business.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Mine are all mediums because I run all mediums...


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

People who find it hard lifting all that honey that langs make can if they wish, do the same thing you are forced to do with long hives, ie, harvest the honey one frame at a time. Where's the problem? Only thing, there may be more work involved cos with a lang there may be a lot more honey to harvest, but end of day it can be done one frame at a time same as a long hive if that is what a person wishes.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

shannonswyatt said:


> Don't mean to hijack this thread, but I know that there are folks with Long hives on this thread. Are you guys running deeps or meduims?.


My long hives are all deeps, because I started out with a nuc that had deep frames. I'd like to convert my conventional Langs to all mediums, because it's no fun lifting a deep full of honey.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Yup, for me I have such a small amount of gear it wouldn't matter much.


----------



## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

_(Shrug ...)_ hTBH's are all that I know, and I'm happy. They live under shade-trees in the middle of a sunlit pasture and, virtually without my "help" during all these years, they do manage to have done quite well without me. Once or twice a year, I harvest a jar or six of honey for my family and my Christmas friends – the rest of it is theirs to keep.

If anything "strikes me as different," then I'd have to say that it really is "how _little_ I actually find that I 'interact with' my hives." Aside from the occasional peek to see if something is seriously-wrong, I usually just step-in to remove a few harvest-bars from the end of the hive near the end of the season. _"This much is mine – the rest is yours."_ Beyond this point, the hive is self-maintaining.


----------



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Shannonswyatt, I have a long hive too and it is with Lang deep frames and foundationless. Works well and is in my opinion a nice idea. They too have their positives and negatives. The worst problem I had with it was that by the time I got out 16 frames or so the combs were off center, a lot. Frame manipulation can be done to help but you have to stay on top of it. Thinner frames for the brood area helps too. See the Michael Bush website for how to make them thinner.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Well can not say much about how to run a TBH but I put some top bars in my LANGS and it worked out nice.
Before = after 3 days
one week 
So I'm going install 3 frames like this this coming SUNDAY in my TBH with a queen and lots of bees.
Do you all think I should butcher a frame of brood to fit the TBH to have some brood in the hive or do you think the queen will just start laying. Thank you and happy being.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That would depend on if it's all drone comb.


----------



## BTG (May 1, 2014)

After reading this entire thread I am somewhat puzzled. My parents had Langs when I was a kid. A deep full of honey is not fun to lift. That said It is possible, perhaps not desirable but possible, to put a medium or shallow frame in a deep box. That said, I made a 2, 4 foot long boxes that fit deep frames and put top bars in it. I only have one regret. One of them I made the notch a little wide so if I am not careful I can drop the bars. So my fix was to just make the bars a tad bit longer. Now they won't fit in the other hive. So, I of course have bars from the other hive that will work if I am careful but I also have some foundation-less frames that I started using. A better solution would have been to put a spacer on the edge that will make the space shorter. 

I have not had it long enough to make a statement comparing it to a Langstroth but I will say this, I have it high enough off the ground that it is easy to work without bending over. A stack of boxes would either require bending to work the bottom or a ladder to work the top. Not to mention some bracing to prevent it from blowing over in the wind. As far as honey production I don't know yet. I will have a better indication next year in the fall. I do believe that if you like what you are working with and it works for you then great. If you want to try something else that's great too. But I would try different things and see what works best for you.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> That would depend on if it's all drone comb.


Ya know OLDTIMMER I did not even think of that thanks:scratch:.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

You can still use it in the TBH, if unsealed it will still hold bees, just ensure there is a flow or they are fed so they will draw more comb which will be worker. Once they have eggs in worker cells it would be a good plan to chop the drone brood before it hatches, leaving a small starter strip & let the bees make more worker comb.


----------

