# Swarm trap size



## Zier64

Will a 5 Frame Nuc Trap work? With 5 Deep frames that is. And a entrance of 2" W x 1/2" H . I was thinking it would be cool as it has a nice double purpose or will no bees want to go in to it?

Thanks!


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## Michael Bush

If you bait it with lemongrass essential oil a five frame deep nuc works fine. If you don't, then I'd go with at least a ten frame deep and some old comb.


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## odfrank

A hole with a disc entrance is easiest to close and move securely.


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## cg3

1 1/4 in hole with can lid


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## Specialkayme

Or just a 1 1/4" hole, some #8 hardware cloth, and a few thumbtacks works.


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## grozzie2

For those of us that dont have a woodshop of any type, or the resources to build boxes, I'm wondering what the more experienced swarm catchers think about using the cheap cardboard nuc boxes as a swarm trap ? At just a few bucks apiece, they seem to be an inexpensive way to set out a trap, but I'm wondering if it's a waste of effort because the bees will avoid the cardboard for some reason ?

We have access to a location that is well known to be a prolific source of swarms. Friends of ours in town, own a house, that has had a colony of bees in the eaves for at least the last 20 years, and the previous owner (currently our neighbor) has told of countless times they had local beeks come to fetch swarms in that yard. That particular yard has a history of a couple swarms a year, for most of the last 20 years, which we have confirmed with current and former owners of the property. We dont have a lot of surplus comb (this was our first year with bees), but I've been considering a couple cardboard nuc boxes with a frame of comb, and some lgo for that location this spring. I dont have the tools / space / time / inclination to build boxes, so my choices are, buy more woodenware for the traps, or, buy the cardboard nuc boxes.

The concepts I keep pondering, and really dont know what the issues are boil down to these:-

1) Is a 5 frame box big enough, or should it be 10 frames ?
2) Is there a good reason (other than re-useability) to go for wood over cardboard for a trap ?
3) Is it worthwhile to set out both sizes ?

I really dont know if the colony in the eaves has really been there all of this time, or, if it's just a spot found annually by swarms. But, talking to current and former owners, we do know that spot has had a colony of bees every summer for the last 20 years. The owners do not want the bees removed, they feel it's part of what makes that old house unique. Historically, there is no shortage of swarms in the area.

So, I'd like to set trap(s) there, and, try maximize the chances of catching any swarms coming from the bees in that eave. I'd appreciate input from those of you with more experience in this area.

Thanks.


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## cg3

grozzie2 said:


> 2) Is there a good reason (other than re-useability) to go for wood over cardboard for a trap ?


 If you do buy a wood nuc, you will be able to use it.


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## Keth Comollo

Many have had success with 5 frame deep nucs. As Michael says the lemongrass oil seems to help greatly.

I just completed 4 new traps that are a bit larger than a standard deep. They are 41 liter capacity boxes modified to hold frames with ventilation hole in bottom and a 1.25" entrance hole. Here's one of em . . .


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## odfrank

>>using the cheap cardboard nuc boxes as a swarm trap ? 
Cardboard boxes work:


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## Specialkayme

The cardboard boxes I've used, even though waxed, don't hold up for extended periods of time under the elements. A few days is fine, a few weeks may be pushing it (at least in my experience).

If you can't build boxes, just use standard equipment. A five frame nuc box if you have it, if not a deep or medium hive body.


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## LetMBee

Cg3: Those lids are awesome! One more way for me to repurpose more trash. Thanks.


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## odfrank

I have come to the conclusion that five frame nucs though a convenient size for trapping, are too small. Larger swarms might be discouraged, and swarms that fill them up need immediate attention if on all drawn comb. Any future ones I build will be eight frame width.


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## LetMBee

Size:
I have been using 2 sizes. Some are 8 frame boxes and some are 10. The 10's are old ratty deeps that smell like bees. The 8 frame boxes I made from scraps and don't smell like bees. I don't know if it was the size or the smell (most probably smell), but the 10 frame boxes have perform about 4:1 for me. 







This is of 2 loaded traps on the garden sink that didn't get a chance to get hung up that day. The one on the right (10 frame) caught this swarm. The one on the left (8-frame) picked up a swarm 3 days later. (so much for them needing to be 10' off the ground.)

Especially early in the swarm season having a larger trap may be of value. I had some large primary swarms. Last year I used 5 frames in all of the traps. Some of the primary swarms that I caught filled all 5 and stuck 5-6 more combs from the ceiling (Within 4-7 days). Many swarms through June filled all 5 and added 2-3 more. 







This is the largest swarm from last summer. Note the wax all over the front of the box AND the tree. Swarms like this one are why I don't use ladders. 

I use a 1" hole size in most of the traps.

Question: Has anyone here experimented with nadiring for their second box when hiving swarms?


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## Zier64

Heres what i did tonight in about an hour. Now i need to paint and Make some frames for it. Would you put frames in that are empty with plastic or wax foundation? or leave the box with just frames and no foundation at all for them to feel like its a big hollow??


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## Michael Bush

>1) Is a 5 frame box big enough, or should it be 10 frames ?

With lemongrass oil for lure, 5 is. Without lemongrass oil they will prefer the larger one.

>2) Is there a good reason (other than re-useability) to go for wood over cardboard for a trap ?

Cardboard, eve wax coated, does not weather well. Wood is a better investment. The bees won't care.

>3) Is it worthwhile to set out both sizes ?

I use old boxes. What I have is the most worthwhile... otherwise I would buy whatever size box I use for my brood (in my case that's an eight frame medium) and use that.


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## Charlie B

odfrank, I can't believe you said "Any future ones I build will be eight frame width".

I'm glad to see you've come over to the eight frame camp instead of playing around with those silly little Nuc boxes. :applause:


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

I catch more swarms in a 10 frame deep then I do nucs. Baited with drawn comb, LGO and a 3/4 inch hole.


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## LetMBee

Actually after sleeping on it I wonder if a 5 frame nuke box will be fine, for attracting a swarm suited to a home that size. I wonder if somehow they know how many bees are in the swarm and if it factors in to the scouts decisions. Usually right after they essue they converge into a single "glob". Who knows...
Whether that's the reason or not, I made 12 more 10-frame traps for next summer. They did that much better, I don't care why.


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## Charlie B

There's no "one size fits all" swarm traps. That's why I use a combination of different sizes and let the bees decide. I was joking about the nuc boxes. They make great swarm traps.


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## Zier64

Anyone have some good cut sheet on the 8 frame swarm boxes. I could just add to the width 3 frames size and go from there Probably will suck a bit more on recovery tho. I will put them in the to do pile. So if i have no extra drawn out comb just put in 5 frames with foundation( I use plastic) And some Lemon grass oil in a ziplock with some paper towel and wait???


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## Charlie B

Zier,

If your in a position to check your trap often I would not put plastic foundation in. Just leave it empty. You want it to look roomy inside. If you can only check it every two weeks or so, I would put in foundationless wood frames with wax coated starter strips. The rest of your questions are correct. LGO with the baggie is the way to go.


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## Michael Bush

>I wonder if somehow they know how many bees are in the swarm and if it factors in to the scouts decisions.

In my experience they do not. Often a swarm too large to fit will move in leaving many hanging on the outside.


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## odfrank

Zier64 said:


> So if i have no extra drawn out comb just put in 5 frames with foundation( I use plastic) And some Lemon grass oil in a ziplock with some paper towel and wait???


Let us know your percent success with this combination.


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## odfrank

Charlie B said:


> Zier,
> 
> If your in a position to check your trap often I would not put plastic foundation in. Just leave it empty. You want it to look roomy inside. If you can only check it every two weeks or so, I would put in foundationless wood frames with wax coated starter strips. The rest of your questions are correct. LGO with the baggie is the way to go.


I have no trouble with a box full of drawn combs that does not "look roomy". "Foundationless wood frames with wax coated starter strips" get easily cross combed. Use REAL wax foundation in this case. Why waste a good baggie? A few drops on a comb and wood is good to go for months.


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## odfrank

Charlie, what is the address of your site in Saratoga? Just the intersection name is fine. I want to check how far it is from my friends house. He has caught two swarms there for me. If you give your mother some pots and pans to bang together, that makes the swarm land.


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## Zier64

Alright I will put in frames and Maybe 2 with wax in the middle...I'll most likely be able to check 1 time a week for sure I always have a Weekend free. Only 1 time this summer will i be gone for 2 weeks...and if i did get a swarm then...well i will have to keep my fingers crossed they dont do anything stupid lol


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## Charlie B

Did I say Saratoga? Sorry, I meant to say Sarasota, like in Florida.


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## Charlie B

Good hunting Zier!


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## Charlie B

odfrank said:


> I have no trouble with a box full of drawn combs that does not "look roomy".


He said he didn't have any drawn comb, just plastic foundation. Clean the propolis off your glasses old fart!


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## bevy's honeybees

I put out one nuk and one deep last week side by side, each with a frame of black comb and foundationless frames, lgo. There are bees constantly checking it, going in and out, for propolis and pollen from those frames I suspect. These are in my back yard. My apiary is 12 miles away. I will put out more bait boxes later next month, there and at my son's house where a swarm moved into the wall of his garage last spring--which only by a stroke of luck did I get it to come out using smoke and banging on the wall, it swarmed to a tree and I got it from there. 

I also picked up some used cheap ladders last weekend so I can get boxes higher up to the branches of the trees. It's been pretty warm here is SW Fla so I want to start early. I like getting my bees this way, it's fun. 

No one has mentioned using shallow boxes. I have quite a few empty shallows I'd like to try. I use entrance reducer with smallest opening. These I will put on ladder scaffolding. They prefer deeper boxes? Am I wasting my time with shallows?


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## Charlie B

I've always used 8 frame mediums and deeps. A 10 frame shallow is similar size to an 8 frame medium so I think that would work. This year I'm going to use anything I have, 10 frame deeps to 8 frame mediums and see what happens.


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## Zier64

I think the next big project is going to be frames...I have a plan in mind on how to make frames quicker than i did last year(lots of machining) and make about 100 for the first test run. I ordered some also but that is expensive when filling out 12 Mediums and i will need 5 frames per nuc which i now have 8 and 2 other larger ones and i have another 9 deeps......And then all the plastic foundation on top of that!!! :S


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## BeeGhost

I just made seven 10 frame deep swarm traps. I will make two of them into trap out boxes and set the other 5 out in different places near the creek in the city. Oh ya, I will also be making another 7 swarm traps next weekend, yup..................settin' out a trout line!! "fishin season" is near, cant wait!!

Oh ya, I am going to experiment a little as well. Gonna place one trap with a full 10 frames of regular Rite Cell foundation with extra wax rolled on. Also going to do a trap with alternating foundation/foundationless frames, and then the rest of the traps with foundationless frames with starter strips. I love running experiments!!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

BeeGhost...Doing what you are doing, is what will give us the standard, ten years from now.

Ben Franklin started with just a string.

cchoganjr


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## LetMBee

BeeGhost: be sure to post your findings. I have had success with 1 drawn comb and the rest foundation less frames. Anything that makes the traps more successful would be great.


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## JBees

I have two swarm traps which I set out last year in a wooded area. No luck even though I saw bees on the flowers. I used lemon grass oil I got from our local Bath and Body store. I plan to make another five traps within the month. I started feeding bees that had been rifling my recycle and set out the two swarm traps in case they abscond. They have been checking out the swarm traps. I know of some bees 3 miles to the south of me but the bees that are feeding from my feeders are flying in from the north. I know of no one in my community who raises bees in that direction so there may be a feral hive/hives to the north of me. Hoping to get all my boxes filled this year. Placed a deposit for three packages this year from Shamrock. I'll post if I get lucky.


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## odfrank

LetMBee said:


> I have had success with 1 drawn comb and the rest foundation less frames.


How much cross combing did you get with that setup?


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## LetMBee

odfrank: I have not had much problem with cross combing in my traps. I use screws on the frame rests to jod the frames tight together. Where I run into cross combing is when I place them in the hive. That is for another thread. I have good video on YouTube of good comb in traps.


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## grozzie2

Charlie B said:


> I've always used 8 frame mediums and deeps. A 10 frame shallow is similar size to an 8 frame medium so I think that would work. This year I'm going to use anything I have, 10 frame deeps to 8 frame mediums and see what happens.


I am confused. I thought you are the swarm donor, and frank the catcher. Does it matter if you are donating out of deeps or mediums? Most of us don't care what your swarms are coming out of charlie, we are interested in how frank catches them...


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## odfrank

grozzie2 said:


> I am confused. I thought you are the swarm donor, and frank the catcher. Does it matter if you are donating out of deeps or mediums? Most of us don't care what your swarms are coming out of charlie, we are interested in how frank catches them...


It does matter. The bigger the frames and brood chamber the bigger the swarm. My method is no secret - old brood comb and a few drops of lemongrass oil, and having tricked Charlie into showing me his apiary site. I might be old and cheap, but I am crafty also.


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## BeeGhost

odfrank, I have made a bit of an observation from your pictures and someone elses pictures on here, and both of you seem quite good at catching swarms...............would the SILVER painted boxes be another attractant?? Do your silver painted traps catch a lot of the swarms compared to other colored boxes?? Just throwing it out there and would like your observations!


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## odfrank

.......would the SILVER painted boxes be another attractant?? Do your silver painted traps catch a lot of the swarms compared to other colored boxes??[/QUOTE said:


> I have silver because it is a classic hive color and I acquired some of it used in early days. My first nuc boxes were used silver and as I expanded I just matched the color. Last year I made four painted to match different neighbors houses and they caught swarms as well as the silver ones. This was done to be cute and also had their address numbers on the front. The plain wood wine boxes did less well (33%), but I attribute that to the less attractive broken extracting combs inside that were not black brood combs. I suggest using bait boxes the size of your brood chambers to maximize their size and minimize work after catching them. I use five frames ones because I have MS, am weak and have difficulty walking and carrying. If I make more they will be eight frame. Or I will make ten frame with very thin tops and bottoms. I had good success with ones made from ten frame deep boxes with 1/4" plywood top and bottom with just a hole in the top and attached with duct tape or screws. 1/8" mesh pivoting on a screw was the closure.


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## LetMBee

I don't think they care about the color. I think it is mainly the old comb/lemon grass smells are what bring them in. If you hang them in a bee area you have a good chance of catching.


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## BeeGhost

Well, I guess I aint no Sherlock Holmes after all!! Throw out the silver "attractiveness" theory and go back to a box that smells like bees I suppose!!

Out of curiousity, of all colors, why was silver the standard "way back when" compared to the white standard of today?


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## odfrank

I don't think it was the standard, it was alternative that commercial beekeepers used. Probably because of sun and heat reflection, plus it is durable.


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## LetMBee

BeeGhost: Tell you what. I am NOT going to totally discount the color of traps. All of my traps are Silver/Gray. That is just the color that I started painting everything and have continued. I just haven't tested anything else yet. If you do set out traps in different colors and notice a difference please pass it along. I just "think" it has more to do with smell. Since I was a kid my parents had problems with bees trying to settle into a post in their front porch. That was tan brick, but I know there was comb in there. I believe it (comb) brought the bees every summer that the failing mortar allowed an opening. Experiment....


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## Charlie B

They like pink, blue, yellow, tan and grey.


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## genie

where do you place the traps? do you put them on a stand or hang them from a tree branch?


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## odfrank

Charlie B said:


> View attachment 1054
> They like pink


Of course your bait hives are pink, you are one of those San Francisco boys.


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## Charlie B

My beautiful blonde (female) bride would take exception to that!


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