# Please help me with the final setup of my first TBH



## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

I am just finishing up my first TBH and a complete beginner.

Here is the TBH. I need to need to nail the campfer strips to top bar, couple hinges/glass for view window, follower boards and paint. So far it is totally free from scraps including ripping the campfer with a power saw....that sucked but make the project more rewarding so I want to keep it going.



For the legs I was thinking of filling 5 gal buckets with concrete and using pvc pipe. The concrete would be topped with water to create a barrier for ants. I am over run with a aphid hording ants in the garden and yard. The bucket might need a couple kicker for wind resistance. Any problems with this idea?


The main questions I have to get it ready are:

1) Legs

2) Entrance locations. I'm thinking multiple with corking options.

3) Bottom. Do I screen or board for my zone or make a option to do both.

4) Viewing window. Is glass ok. I have free scraps.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

1 - Are you going to bury the buckets of concrete? If not, it really looks like it will tip over in the first 5 mph wind. I like the PVC idea, but I'm also unsure of how well it will stay strong being out in the sun. Seems like it will get brittle and crack/break.

2 - This may be difficult with your lid, but consider the option. http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm

3 - Lots of folks are concerned that screened bottoms cause issues, especially with top bar hives. If you do go with a screened bottom, you must have a way to close it up. And you for sure what it closed up when you put bees into it.

4 - Glass is OK, we used some old windows and cut the glass to size for ours.


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## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

1- As suggested by JW, bury the buckets in the ground, otherwise it will tip most likely. And avoid PVC, it doesnt hold up to sunlight too well. a couple of 2x4s would be a better option

2- In my TBH that has bees right now I have the first bar a bit from the wall, allowing bees to get in and out, along with a cut into the wall with a jigsaw,

3- Stay away from screened and just go with a solid board. If you have the ability to build a mite tray, go for it. Otherwise, no.

4- Glass is fine.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I think the buckets were to be filled with cement and topped with water...shouldn't tip.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

Thanks for the replies. 

1) I realize pvc does not hold up to UV so the buckets and pvc would be easily replaced and mobile. I have lots of both. The idea is to make it all easily replaceable, mobile and ant proof via a water bridge that they can not cross to get up post and into hive. It would only take a 10 to 12 in hole for the bucket to keep it from blowing over or some kickers on the bucket. I would put sleeves in concrete so pvc post would slide out and brackets on hive. I could go with 2x4's and a grease skirt. I am just trying to utilize what I have laying around and fight the ants. They climb 12 ft to my aquaponics system on deck to bring aphids and suck sugars. 

2) After I got the lid done I found Bush's entrance and tips...just last night lol. I could do that with my lid and add some other holes that would be corked for different options. I'm still learning so the follower boards, broods and moving bars around has me a bit confused. I wanted to have options for when it all sinks in and I have that "oh crap, I should have the entrance over here", moment.

3) I am leaning towards a interchangeable screen/solid bottom. I have a lot to learn and mites have me worried along with hot humid summers. I made the top so insulation can be added for winter but I have not learned enough about summer heat.

4) I read something about condensation problems with glass vs lexan/acrylic.


Thanks again.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I think the PVC would break. What about a hollow metal chain link fence post. I would be concerned about it blowing over though. What if you used three buckets, then it would be more stable. It it goes will it will be full of brood and honey and be top heavy. 

I like your top and made one similar to that, but now I make them light and I make them so I can easily get them off and raise them a bit in the heat. 

I like solids personally, even on my Langs. I wouldn't mind if they could be opened up, but I really like having a simple design that I can build quickly. Adding a removable bottom would mean more hardware and more work for me. Having a screen won't kill any varoa, it just gives you a way to count them, and I don't plan on counting mites. If I did I would probably do a sugar roll since it would be more accurate, particularly in a TBH. 

Condensation on the glass is a good thing. Air will condense on the coldest surface, and you are better to have it on the sides then over the bees heads. Condensation overhead in the winter is a death sentence. Wet bees are dead bees in the winter.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

Missy and I got creative! Just need legs. There is enough gap around lid for entrance. I might need to close some of it up.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

WBVC said:


> I think the buckets were to be filled with cement and topped with water...shouldn't tip.


They will absolutely tip, in fact it might be difficult to get it to stand up on them without tipping. If they're buried partway they have a chance. I still think a 4x4 would be a better option.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

I agree it will tip if not buried. I have some concrete counter top sealer that is made from bee wax and food grade mineral oil. Should I coat the top bars?


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

No, the top bars don't need anything. Some folks put wax on the edges as a guide, but if you have a wedge you don't need that. The bees will attach there wax stronger than you can by melting wax on them.


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## msscha (Jan 4, 2014)

That is a beautiful design!


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

msscha said:


> That is a beautiful design!


Thanks msscha and everyone else for the tips!


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## Striider (Apr 21, 2014)

I like the custom paint job, nice! This is the best thread I have found about bar sizes: http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...r-questions&highlight=top+bar+hive+bar+widths


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## thesolarsailor (Aug 18, 2013)

A hive full of bars and honey gets heavy. If you are set on the bucket idea I would use 4 and build an "H" as a stand. Also realize that a 5 gallon bucket exposed to UV all day is good for about a year before it gets brittle and cracks, this will let the water trap out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> 1) Legs

I gave up on legs and use a stool to work the hives on the ground. They blow over.

> 2) Entrance locations. I'm thinking multiple with corking options.

Mine is no holes and just the gap at the last bar. Multiple locations sometimes don't get guarded. I'd rather have all the guard bees in one place...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/TBHEntrance1.JPG

> 3) Bottom. Do I screen or board for my zone or make a option to do both.

I would not screen it. It's more work and cost for no gain.

> 4) Viewing window. Is glass ok. I have free scraps. 

Glass is great. You can scrape it down with a razor, which you can't do with plexiglass...


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

Ok, I get my first package tomorrow. I tried to get a nuc but nobody wants me to cut a langstroth down. I have a gap in the lid at the front and both sides that will allow bees to come in the top via a gap in the first bar. I also plan on 6 holes 3 top and 3 bottom at the same end which will be corked for options. That way I don't have to drill in a live hive later if the gap at top does not work well.

1) If you have an end entrance should I have a follower board about 10 bars back?

2) Since it is a package they probably need a feeder. Should this be behind the follower board with an access hole?

Any other tips for starting a late package would be appreciated. I can't seem to narrow down my questions in the search function.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Holy cow! That is late for a package. I don't know what the flows are like were you are, but it may be tough getting them ready for winter. Feed, feed, feed. Hopefully you don't have any queen issues or you could run into problems.


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## Schanna (Jun 23, 2014)

Another idea for legs are telescoping square tubes. They are relatively inexpensive and seeing they telescope it will be easier to level your hive. I would definitely use 4 legs. You can pick them up at some hardware stores and just about any metal supply store


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

Rairdog said:


> 2) Since it is a package they probably need a feeder. Should this be behind the follower board with an access hole?


I had what I thought was an ingenious tbh feeder: a follower board with a hole that allowed the bees to access the syrup jar on the other side of the board, but not go any further into the unused hive (the lid and bottom of the jar were enclosed in a little "house"). Unfortunately, this drew black ants of every size from smallest to largest, short of carpenter ants, and my bees were besieged. The ants were finding their way into the bee area and harassing everybody - the bees were spending all their time chasing ants and not doing their bee duties. When I took out some bars, bees would actually come flying out carrying black ants (alive) almost as big as they were. And the bees were very, very cranky. I ended up putting the syrup jar *inside* the bee area, got rid of the ants with Borax (not in the hive) and now there is peace in the valley. I keep the jar against the follower board under bars without any comb. I can take off a few bars, change the jar, and no one even looks up. As for #1, I would give them fewer bars to start, maybe 6 or 7 for now.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you did build a screened bottom, close it off before installing your new package. It would be a shame to have them abscond at this point. 

Once the bees are established, you can reevaluate opening the screen. My suggestion is to normally leave it closed.

When I built my TBHs, I installed angled legs that I thought were adequate to the task. When the hive got full, and the legs warped from exposure, I was shocked how heavy it was and how difficult it was to solve the leg problem.  Don't skimp on legs, if you use them.

Just a note on PVC pipe. PVC rated for water pipe isn't rated for sun exposure and may be subject to UV degradation. On the other hand, PVC pipe rated for electrical conduit use IS rated for and suitable for UV exposure. More on PVC pipe exposure to UV details here: 
http://www.jmeagle.com/pdfs/Technical Bulletins/TB10SunlightEffectsonPVC.pdf

Regardless of sun exposure, PVC pipe at an angle under a heavy load will tend to bend over time. It would not be my choice for hive legs.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

I went ahead and built wood legs out of 5/4 recycled treated decking. It is already 20 years old and nearly petrified so it won't warp much. 

I think just putting the feeder in with them sounds like the way to go. I agree its a chance this late. There is 10+ acres of clover along the river in front, a garden and flowers. 

The ants are a major pain so I will probably wrap the legs with alum strip and grease it. 

Thanks for the help! Keep the comments coming!


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## crabbcatjohn (May 5, 2013)

You could try setting your legs in metal coffee cans or maybe some large, thick PVC caps if you can find them.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I made my very first top bar hive with legs, but now I don't. At the time it seemed like the thing to do since I had seen other photos of TBHs with legs. Plus I was "never going to move that sucker". And then I thought about moving it to a friends. In my truck. With a cap. Well that won't work. If I ever do move it now I will probably just take the sawzall to the legs.


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## Needo (Sep 10, 2013)

If you don't go with the gap between the first top bar and the front of the hive for an entrance, don't forget to to use a quarter to three eights inch spacer where that gap would be. This will keep the bees from building off center on the bars. I didn't do this and now I have about twelve bars between my two hives that I need to cull out.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

The legs come off with 2 screws in front top of each leg. I sat on it with 200# and no side wiggle. I drilled 3 top and 3 bottom holes. There just didn't seem to be enough room around lid and I would have had to drill or notch lid. There was already a spacer to make them tight and I planed it down to make the gap. I will just make up a new one. 


So if I give them 8 bars this is where the follower will be. Seems small?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Should be enough room to start, I think. Where are you getting a package this late?

Legs look like a great improvment over previous idea!


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> Should be enough room to start, I think. Where are you getting a package this late?
> 
> Legs look like a great improvment over previous idea!


I talked to a local TBH guy and he recommended 10 to 12 bars with queen suspended in middle for a few days or until the draw comb. He also said try a baggie of syrup at the back with a slit in top lying on the bottom. Sounds like good advice. 

There was a guy that had some leftover nucs for 7/5 pickup. I wasn't comfortable doing a chop and crop so he made me a package. I am getting ready to dump them in when the sun is off the hive and it cools down. First time but I'm not nervous. Studied my butt off here and lots of youtube. 

There new home. Entrance on right to get them above bushes.

The girls view of my garden and the river. Cantaloupe, cuc and clover flowers.

Their playground along the river.


Thanks again!


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

How long has the queen with the bees? The reason I ask is that hanging a cage is a good way to cause problems with cross comb. If you could direct release her you would be better off.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I hanged the cage with my package installed and got lucky. I will not hang a queen cage again in a top bar. If she's been with them for awhile and they don't appear to be acting aggressively towards her, I'd say direct release her.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

The guy told me he made the package up this morning. She is already hanging. The local TBH guy said I will get some cross combing around the queen but at least they will have started. I forgot to spray water and it was sitting right there...DUH! So they were pretty riled up. I got a little shaky getting the queen out when they all came piling out. The guy used 2 in trim nails so it was long lift of the lid. After I tied the queen up and dumped half of them in they were all over the lid and bars. Then I was spraying everywhere and in mid air lol. They are doing circles now for orientation. I will check for comb around queen tomorrow.

My ******* bee suit. Not one sting!


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## J-Rat (Dec 10, 2013)

Nice job on the hive. When I installed my bees in April I hung the queen cage between bars 3 & 4. On a 5" piece of wire. Released her two days later. The comb was fine.


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## Needo (Sep 10, 2013)

Congrats on your first hive Rairdog. I remember how apprehensive I was about hiving my first two packages. It is also one of those things that should be on a bucket list. The hardest part now is not inspecting the hive every other day.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

Nice pic J-Rat...thanks for the encouragement...I wish it was April. 

I agree Needo...it was a rush and best bucket list checkoff in a while. I've already done a few quick peaks through the window. They are all balled up on the queen and my GF and her kid are amazed.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

Lesson learned.....don't use nails this long on a package.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

Rairdog said:


> I forgot to spray water and it was sitting right there...DUH! So they were pretty riled up. I got a little shaky getting the queen out when they all came piling out. The guy used 2 in trim nails so it was long lift of the lid. After I tied the queen up and dumped half of them in they were all over the lid and bars. Then I was spraying everywhere and in mid air lol.


Yep...I thought I was ready as can be when I did my first install in May. I imagined each step over and over as we had been coached to do in bee school. Then the queen cage dropped down into the box with all the hysterical bees, I put my bare hand in to retrieve it, a bunch of bees came flying out along with the cage and then they were flying all over the place. I didn't have a plan for when the plan didn't go as planned. I felt badly but you just have to learn from it and try to do better next time.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

Marysia2 said:


> Yep...I thought I was ready as can be when I did my first install in May. I imagined each step over and over as we had been coached to do in bee school. Then the queen cage dropped down into the box with all the hysterical bees, I put my bare hand in to retrieve it, a bunch of bees came flying out along with the cage and then they were flying all over the place. I didn't have a plan for when the plan didn't go as planned. I felt badly but you just have to learn from it and try to do better next time.


I fumbled with the bread tie to queen cage and almost dropped it.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

I just went out and uncapped the queen for them to eat the candy and release her. Nice straight comb on her bar. I didn't check bar behind her and there were none in front of her. She has I green dot which I didn't notice when I release package.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

Rairdog said:


> Nice straight comb on her bar.


Beautiful new comb. Is that what you're using for a smoker...a cigarette butt? Or are you just a little tense?


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Smok'em if you got'em!


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

I don't have a smoker yet. Borrowed a cig lol. I was much more relaxed. They are very calm. I tried not to look them in the eye like I did when they came pouring out of the package lol. It's gonna be fun digging that cage out.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

I pulled the queen and she she went straight to comb. There was nice straight comb on her bar and each side. Luckily they started comb from the edge of her cage and went back so I got it out before encompassing the cage cross combing.

The syrup bag leaked and there were dead bees on it so I pulled it out. I can't seem to figure out how to keep the bag from leaking. I put 4 cups of sugar and 4 cups water into bag. I tried slices of various lengths and poked holes. 

I cleaned up syrup behind follower board but left it in front for something to eat until I figure out the best method. I have messed with them way to much for the past 3 days since installing package. I need to come up with a good feeding method to put in and leave them alone for a while. *Any suggestion would help*.


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## J-Rat (Dec 10, 2013)

Rairdog

I made a mason jar feeder that sat on the opposite side of the follower board and has a screen to keep the bees from coming out when I changed the jar. I only made five small holes in the lid.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

J-Rat said:


> Rairdog
> 
> I made a mason jar feeder that sat on the opposite side of the follower board and has a screen to keep the bees from coming out when I changed the jar. I only made five small holes in the lid.


I have been looking at similar designs. So you cut a hole on follower board to match?


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## J-Rat (Dec 10, 2013)

Yes, it worked great.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

That is a really nice looking feeder, but sometimes they can't reach the nectar with the hardware cloth in place. Their tongues are not long enough.


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## J-Rat (Dec 10, 2013)

I bent the hardware cloth up so that it was flush with the jar lid. The bees would empty a 20 oz. jar in two days.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

I just did some tinkering with scrap polycarb panels and pvc trim. How does this look? Do the need a ladder lol. I don't have hardware cloth so I will just swap out jars. There is no bottom.

I have an extra follower board to match the arched opening. 


This way I can kinda see what's going on around the feeder.


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## J-Rat (Dec 10, 2013)

That looks really good. Let us know how it works.( with pics.)


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

These feeders are all very clever, but why not just use a follower board with a cut-out on the bottom to allow the entrance of a Boardman feeder to protrude into the bee area, but with the jar remaining on the other side of the board? 
FWIW, I had a custom-made feeder, similar to the ideas below, but unfortunately it drew black ants of every size to the hive. Possibly because the sides of the follower board were not as snug as they could have been, the ants were able to invade the bee area side. In the end, I switched to a regular Boardman feeder kept inside the bee area under the bars with no built comb. I just take off the bars over the jar, exchange jars, and close it up again. In generally, the bees ignore me while doing this.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I think they are cool, but I normally just put a quart jar on top of some scrap 3/4 wood. Works for me, but I appreciate the craftsmanship that you all have put into your designs. If I could make them that nice I may find another career choice. If it wasn't for duct tape and gorilla glue nothing of mine would hold together tight!


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## J-Rat (Dec 10, 2013)

Because I have a bunch of wood working tools. And I'm not afraid to see what I can build. LOL Just kidding. I like to build things.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

J-Rat said:


> Because I have a bunch of wood working tools. And I'm not afraid to see what I can build. LOL Just kidding. I like to build things.


Ditto. I have been committed to build everything from scraps and not purchase anything. I can buy a feeder cheap but would have to drive and hour or have it shipped. An hour in the shop is much more rewarding. 

As for ants, I knew they would be a problem. That's why I was hesitant to build legs until I looked at all the options. With a late package I knew they were going to need syrup. First day after install all 4 legs had ants coming in. My garden is 10 ft away so they are robust. I put bearing grease on the legs. It dried and skimmed over so the were walking right over it in a hour. Next, I made an alum drip cap and stuffed the underside with thinner grease. This should keep it from washing off from rain for a while. It has stopped them completely.


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## J-Rat (Dec 10, 2013)

Your ant guards look like they will work. good job. I had ant trouble. My hive is under an oak tree that was full of ants.
I put boric acid around the base of the tree. and put diatomacous earth around the legs of the hive. I also made some bait boxes with sugar and boric acid and crisco and boric acid. if you can find the ant nest boric acid will take care of them. So far I don't have an ant problem.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

J-Rat said:


> I put boric acid around the base of the tree. and put diatomacous earth around the legs of the hive. I also made some bait boxes with sugar and boric acid and crisco and boric acid. if you can find the ant nest boric acid will take care of them. So far I don't have an ant problem.


Yes, besides moving the jar feeder into the bee area, I put out bait traps with sugar and Borax. It took about a week, but the ants are gone. I left the traps under the hive and the ant army hasn't returned. I used deli containers (half sugar, half Borax), with a small triangle cut in the lid, then turned the container over on the ground, propped up a little with some rocks. The mixture doesn't get wet, and the bees don't bother with the dried sugar, which wouldn't be easy for them to access anyway, so it's been safe for the bees.

You guys made beautiful feeders but it must be a guy thing. I recently had to use a power drill to attach a roof hinge to the body of the hive, and my brand-spanking new staple/brad gun to attach the foundation to an already assembled frame, and was quite proud of myself. But I think that's as far as I want to go with "woodworking"...


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

J-Rat said:


> That looks really good. Let us know how it works.( with pics.)


Here ya go. I am still working out the bugs with a new app for my phone. Basically you download ip webcam to your phone. It sets up a ip server address and uses wifi if you have a router or it will use network. Then I place the phone in the hive with app running and log on the ip address it gives from house on pc. You can take any old phone, ipad or whatever that uses wifi. I can then sit at the computer and watch the bees on live video, take still shots or record video. Recording video is not as good as live. You can also view it with any device that gets internet by logging on to server address. I have been setting it on top of hive and pointing it at entrance to watch the bees come in at night. This is the first time in the hive. This is a still shot I took while sitting at my desk while phone is in hive.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

It's just a matter of clicking icon for still photo and uploading to photobucket and pasting. The hive is closed up and there is enough light from entrance.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Sure seems like a ton of light in that hive!


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

shannonswyatt said:


> Sure seems like a ton of light in that hive!


I was wondering about that. Maybe I should put some foam tape around windows.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Rairdog said:


> I was wondering about that. Maybe I should put some foam tape around windows.


Yeah, if your windows aren't closing tight you should probably either get them closing tight or find a way to block at least some of that light. It should be very dark in there even during the day for the most part.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

Rairdog said:


> I was wondering about that. Maybe I should put some foam tape around windows.


I can't see from the photo how your window is held closed, but I had to use a little piece of thin wood to make the latch hold the window cover tighter against the glass. The little beasties won't like all that light...they've been known to abscond if it annoys them enough (or the window is opened too often..."too often" being by their reckoning, not ours).


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

Update. I inspected the hive today after 1 week from package install. There are 4 nice size comb.




There was on small comb in back and a small one in front which I found the queen on. Green dot lower left comb. She was camera shy and going front to back.


They have only used a half quart of syrup since Sunday so they must be foraging pretty well. We still have lots of clover around. There is a 50 foot row of 15 ft high Rose of Sharon but they don't seem to use it. I did notice some pollen sacks coming into hive. 

There were some nurse' poking head first in cells so I assume there are eggs but I could not see them. No capped cells that I could see either. 

There have been 5 or so bees crawling on the grass around hive that can't seem to fly. I put some in a plastic cup in the sun and they warmed up and took off. Hopefully I don't have tracheal mites.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

Does this look good? Pattern seems not that great but IDK. 17 days after queen release.


I have 7 bars this size and a new one being drawn. The new one (bar 8) was off center a little so I put it between 5 and 6 and reversed it so it would be a little crowded on that side and maybe they will work it back to center. Here is a shot of the slightly off center bar.


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## Rairdog (Jun 21, 2014)

I put a bee garden around the hive. There are hitting it pretty good despite the Glodenrod Flow. Here are some shots I tok this am.

Anise Hyssop has stole the show so far.


May Night Salvia


Catmint


They hit the Sedum pretty hard when it first bloomed then it went dead. They are not hitting the Asters like I had hoped. The Beebalm lost most of it's blooms shortly after planting so I don't know how well they will like it. I also put in a couple different Wegelia, Privet, Mums, Poppy, Lantana, Lemonbalm, Currant, 3 diff color Cone Flowers, Shasta Daisies and Black Eyed Susan. I basically went to the BB stores for a few weeks to see what the bees were hitting. Then went back a week later and got them on sale/half dead for a buck or so. I also went to moms and neighbors to see what the bees were hitting and split up their perennials. Turned out pretty well and cheap!

Short clip of TBH


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