# Legislation to Restrict Neonics Proposed By Oregon Representative



## BayHighlandBees

were the bumbles killed specifically because a neonic pesticide was used, or would any pesticide applied on the blooming trees have produced the same results?

If it's the latter then how does this bill solve the problem of the dying bumbles? :scratch:


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## sweetas

BigDawg said:


> Go Oregon!!!
> 
> In the wake of the death of over 50,000 bumblebees last month in Wilsonville Oregon, and growing concern about the fate of the nation's honeybees and the role the neonicotinoids may be playing in Colony Collapse Disorder, legislation to restrict pesticide use was just proposed by Rep. Blumenauer of Oregon:
> 
> http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2013/07/legislation_to_restrict_pestic.html


WELL Some thing is killing the bees. Europe thinks its partly neonicotinoids. If you actually know the answer, please tell us all. The award winning Swiss documentary MORE THAN HONEY is very good. Poses a lot of questions and some answers. Looks at bee keeping in four countries, Switzerland, USA China and Australia (Western Australia, its a big state, over 1 million sq miles). The movie trailer states there is a Noah's Ark for bees and he's been there. Guess where that is. 

It is a very serious problem, wish I knew the answer.

Geoff


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## gmcharlie

Noah's ark for bees???

How many people her in the US have bees?? How many people rely on wild swarms? How long have bees been in the USA??? and at what level??

Answer these questions and you will realize there are more bees in NA now than ever before!.....

Thats without adding Mason and Bumbles to the list........ ever wonder what we are doing right that there were 50000 bumbles in one spot????


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## sweetas

gmcharlie said:


> Noah's ark for bees???
> 
> How many people her in the US have bees?? How many people rely on wild swarms? How long have bees been in the USA??? and at what level??
> 
> Answer these questions and you will realize there are more bees in NA now than ever before!.....
> 
> Thats without adding Mason and Bumbles to the list........ ever wonder what we are doing right that there were 50000 bumbles in one spot????


There should be no NOAH's Ark. It would be nice if people lived peacefully and that included the bees. The bees have been around for 100 million years. I can't remember that far back. People depending on what you believe, about 7,000 years or 50,000 years. 

Since arriving in the USA in about 1622, bees did alright for a long time. Some covered most of the continent. They are very hardy creatures. 

The MORE THAN HONEY, features John Miller from Millers Bees. If the BBC program is right, it was his grandfather that first started migratory beekeeping in the US. Perhaps that is why MORE THAN HONEY chose to feature him. John Miller certainly says there is a problem with bees. Perhaps he is wrong.

DAN Rather in a report in early April certainly highlighted a problem in getting enough bees for the almond bloom in California. The price went from $150 to $225 per hive. Four frames of bees were acceptable instead of the normal 5. He may have bee mis-informed. Then again he is only a reporter, so who can trust him.


If there isn't a bee problem in the US, it will the *BEST NEWS* a lot of people have heard for a long time. Lets hope you are right and the others (including me) are wrong.

Does the GM in GMCHARLIE stand for anything in particular.

I hope your bees do well.

Cheers

Geoff


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## BigDawg

It's my understanding that in the early 50's there were about 5 million hives being maintained by beeks in the US and there are now less than 2.5 million.




gmcharlie said:


> Noah's ark for bees???
> 
> How many people her in the US have bees?? How many people rely on wild swarms? How long have bees been in the USA??? and at what level??
> 
> Answer these questions and you will realize there are more bees in NA now than ever before!.....
> 
> Thats without adding Mason and Bumbles to the list........ ever wonder what we are doing right that there were 50000 bumbles in one spot????


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## BigDawg

It's a good question. The Wilsonville bumblebee kill is being called "the largest mass bumblebee death in Oregon history." 



BayHighlandBees said:


> were the bumbles killed specifically because a neonic pesticide was used, or would any pesticide applied on the blooming trees have produced the same results?
> 
> If it's the latter then how does this bill solve the problem of the dying bumbles? :scratch:


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## gmcharlie

sweetas said:


> They are very hardy creatures.
> Then again he is only a reporter, so who can trust him.
> 
> 
> 
> Does the GM in GMCHARLIE stand for anything in particular.
> 
> I hope your bees do well.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Geoff


That is the real truth.. who can trust him?/ the guy who faked documents to make a presidental canidate look bad? or teh dan rather that rolled and set suvs on fire to make headlines???


Check the california average for hives... yes there were some extremes, just like every dang year... clowns get the numbers wrong.... beek go out of business and don't tell suppliers...

INCREASED number of acres in pollination.... You really need to understand that 20 years ago the number of hives needed in CA was tiny comapred to today. Every year that number of hives has grown.... and Migratory beeks are becoming more rare due to ageing and hard work.

Dawg, I think your numbers are off.... Should be well over 3.5 million now. Never ever seen data for 1950. 
and reality is 300 years ago there were NONE........ ZERO......

Real frustrated at people (mostly reporters) takeing a small nuget of truth and blowing stuff way out of proportion. 
Its like the tragedy of deer killed on the highway... Oh me oh my....! the truth is there are more deer than ever!...... Just like bumbles in that kill..... how many bees must there be in that county for 50000 to be in one spot at one time???? I shudder to think about that number!....
Its not like there the last bees!

Its also intersting to note that LINDER trees (eroupean) are KNOW BEE KILLERS so why don't we ban the trees also???

The key is a dose of reality, not some stupid reporters story.... you guys do realize that either tax dollars or sales was the driving force behind these vidios and stories? these guys are not doing it for fun or chairty....... just michal moore wannabees... streatching a grain of truth for every cent its worth.... unfortunatly thats the society we are in right now....


And yes, Its General Motors... I worked there for many years... got this email ID and had it since 1988.......


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## BlueDiamond

gmcharlie said:


> you guys do realize that either tax dollars or sales was the driving force behind these vidios and stories? these guys are not doing it for fun or chairty....... just michal moore wannabees... streatching a grain of truth for every cent its worth.... unfortunatly thats the society we are in right now....


I think a huge irony is the frankenfood groups, vanishing bees filmmakers and national public radio executives who shamelessly exaggerate the dangers of neonics and GMO's in order to maximize sales and income are behaving just like 1960's era tobacco executives who stretched the truth to maximize sales and income.


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## WLC

I've speculated before on how neonics, and other pesticides, could be banned on the local level.

It looks like Oregon has figured it out as well. 

THIS WILL SPREAD.


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## BlueDiamond

The 6 month sales restriction on Dinotefuran insecticides could be lifted if the Oregon Dept. of Agriculture determines the bee kill was solely due to applicator error.
http://www.valent.com/newsroom/news...t-issues-statement-on-oregon-bee-incident.cfm
"We do not believe the scope of these measures is necessary with the information available, and we will work to get the restrictions lifted as soon as possible."


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## WLC

And how long will the secretary of the Oregon Dept. of Ag. hold that position if it is lifted quickly?

You really don't understand how politics works. It's 'the squeeze play'.

The restrictions won't get lifted unless the price is right.

Repeat this thousands of times across the U.S. .

Sound familiar? It's what is most likely occurring in the EU.

A Maltese lawyer doesn't suddenly 'get religion'.

It's death by a thousand cuts for the defendants.

By the way, I did see 'More Than Honey' at an art house.


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## BlueDiamond

WLC said:


> And how long will the secretary of the Oregon Dept. of Ag. hold that position if it is lifted quickly?
> You really don't understand how politics works. It's 'the squeeze play'.


This is not a political matter. It's a simple pesticide accident. There will be a civil fine imposed on the applicator or his company of between $1,000 - $10,000. Probably closer to $1,000 if the applicator was confused by the label directions because they do not plainly state: "Do not spray landscape ornamentals when in bloom". Then the ban on Dinotefuran will be lifted and the matter will be closed and forgotten. Valent USA has already paid for the netting that was used to cover the Linden trees until they are finished blooming. No humans were hurt so it's not likely there will be a lawsuit. The neighboring State of Washington has already rejected a petition from the Xerces Society to restrict sales of Dinotefuran.


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## WLC

You're naive.

Once sharks smell blood, it just attracts more sharks.

The pattern is set.


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## BlueDiamond

WLC said:


> You're naive. Once sharks smell blood, it just attracts more sharks. The pattern is set.


Nah, remember the pesticide companies can sue the Oregon Dept. of Agriculture if they feel they have been treated unfairly. Just like with regard to the 2 year ban on neonics in Europe, Bayer has already publicly stated that it "reserves the right to review its legal options" http://www.agprofessional.com/news/...id-ban-wont-improve-bee-health-209190501.html


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## WLC

Right.
It's about lawyers.


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## BigDawg

For me and many others, it comes down to burden of proof, and, the precautionary principle. If, after sufficient research, it can be clearly established that neonics do not harm bees and are not contributing to and/or causing CCD, then clearly they should not be banned. However, they should be removed from the market until more research into their role in CCD is conducted. 

Where there's smoke, there's usually fire, and there are now dozens of published research papers that show how neonics are causing problems for pollinators. Until we know how to mitigate those problems, the products should not be sold. It's entirely too little, too late to wait for the EPA's 2018 follow-up review on neonic's safety.


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## BlueDiamond

BigDawg said:


> For me and many others, it comes down to burden of proof, and, the precautionary principle. Neonics should be removed from the market until more research into their role in CCD is conducted.


"It has been shown _over and over_ that neonics and other insecticides harm insects in the lab. If people want to make a case for a ban, they have to show that they cause harm in the field. Not hypothetical harm. 
Following the "precautionary principle" no one would do anything new. For example, people were afraid of GM food. There is no evidence that GM food has harmed anybody consuming it. Same with neonics, there is no evidence that neonic treated crops have harmed colonies storing the nectar. The accidental spray and dust kills are another matter, but these have been going on for centuries."
http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1307&L=BEE-L&D=1&O=D&P=42700


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## cerezha

gmcharlie said:


> ... Its also intersting to note that LINDER trees (eroupean) are KNOW BEE KILLERS so why don't we ban the trees also???....


Really? First, * linden*, not linder; second - bees produce the best honey from the linden tree flowers. In Russia, such honey is highly regarded for its medicinal value to treat the cold. As a matter of fact, in Europe linden trees are widely used at boulevards to provide the shade and clean air (they are natural air-purifiers) - these trees provide nectar for urban bees and do not kill anybody if not sprayed with neonics.

"Oregon officials say preliminary results point to an insecticide that was used on the nearby European Linden trees. The trees were sprayed with a pesticide called Safari to kill aphids, an insect that destroys plants and vegetation. Safari is part of a group of pesticides called neonicotinoids that are known to kill pollinators such as bumblebees, Associated Press reports. " http://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/25000-bumble-bees-found-dead-target-parking-lot.html


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## BigDawg

BlueDiamond said:


> "It has been shown _over and over_ that neonics and other insecticides harm insects in the lab. If people want to make a case for a ban, they have to show that they cause harm in the field. Not hypothetical harm.


That's exactly what I mean by burden of proof. As someone who obviously works for the pesticide industry, you know very well that field studies on bees and pesticides are very difficult to do. But that said, it should be up to the pesticide manufacturers to prove their products DON'T harm bees in the field and are not a contributing factor to CCD. Interestingly enough, they COULD be spending money on such research, but instead, they're focusing on varroa--how convenient for them.....



> Following the "precautionary principle" no one would do anything new. For example, people were afraid of GM food. There is no evidence that GM food has harmed anybody consuming it.


Hmmm....how many long-term human studies on GMO food safety has the GMO industry conducted? That would be ZERO. 

The truth is that there has been only a handful of human studies related to consumption of GMO's and, recent research has shown that glyphosate is an endochrine disrupter in humans, that glyphosate is being tied to breast cancer in humans, a recent study done in Germany in 2012 found glyphosate in all of the urine samples it took from non-agricultural workers in Berlin, at levels 5-20 times the limit for drinking water, and another recent study showed organ damage from to livestock being fed GMO feed. There are HUNDREDS of articles published in peer-reviewed journals that highlight the dangers to humans and pollinators from GMOs and their interlinked pesticides.


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## BlueDiamond

BigDawg said:


> it should be up to the pesticide manufacturers to prove their products DON'T harm bees in the field and are not a contributing factor to CCD.


Dr. David Fischer from Bayer has already explained: "CCD has been reported from organic beekeeping operations and in locations far away from agricultural lands. It is also important to understand that CCD is a newly coined term for a symptomology that has been observed by beekeepers for more than 100 years. In their descriptive study of CCD, van Englesdorp et al. stated “since 1869, there have been at least 18 discrete episodes of unusually high colony mortality documented internationally. The idea that it [CCD} all started in 2006 and coincided with the introduction of neonicotinoid insecticides is a myth. Interestingly, there does seem to be a correlation between recent occurrence of CCD and the presence of residues of Varroa control chemicals. In these situations, hives with lower rates of CCD generally have higher varroacide residue levels. This suggests that beekeepers who are more vigilant in controlling Varroa are less likely to have CCD in their colonies. Varroa mites weaken bees’ immune systems and are themselves vectors of pathogens that may cause severe sickness in bees and trigger the CCD response. Ultimately, there is no credible scientific evidence demonstrating a link between the use of neonicotinoid insecticides and the occurrence of widespread honey bee colony losses, including CCD." http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/05/09/pesticide-profits-or-bees-bayer-responds/


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## gmcharlie

where theres smoke?? we still have guys running around claiming there are POW in Vietnam.........
problem is ecoterrorist are smart... start lots of little fires... scream and squawk despite the facts.... and let the dump people and shameless reporters live on the dung piles left behind....... Kinda like global warming, which used to be global cooling, and now its climate change... Ahh heck who cares lets just tax Americans and give it to someone else and call it good....

Its interesting to note. that a lot of articles list 25,000 as the count.... and suddenly as if by magic the new number is 50K....typical 
whats real odd is a quick goggle search will show over 1000 articles on the little bee kill.....
Stupid people who are really bad at math, not even close to understanding the numbers of bees killed by low mowers and raid on a daily basis.

We squawk over the dumbest stuff...... 1000's hits on a few dead bumbles, and not a darn thing on how things are going right........


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## BigDawg

Wow Blue Diamond! You're on the clock at 1:30 am, huh? Are you ever going to tell us which pesticide company is paying you to post here?

Of COURSE a Bayer "scientist" is telling us that neonics aren't a causal factor in CCD--nenoics are a $2 BILLION dollar a year product and Bayer is paying him to downplay any negatives to the use of their products.

Tell me, when RJ Reynolds scientists lied to the public for *decades* saying that smoking didn't cause cancer (even though there is crystal clear, indisputable evidence that their own research showed that it did) did you believe them? 




BlueDiamond said:


> Dr. David Fischer from Bayer has already explained: "CCD has been reported from organic beekeeping operations and in locations far away from agricultural lands. It is also important to understand that CCD is a newly coined term for a symptomology that has been observed by beekeepers for more than 100 years. In their descriptive study of CCD, van Englesdorp et al. stated “since 1869, there have been at least 18 discrete episodes of unusually high colony mortality documented internationally. The idea that it [CCD} all started in 2006 and coincided with the introduction of neonicotinoid insecticides is a myth. Interestingly, there does seem to be a correlation between recent occurrence of CCD and the presence of residues of Varroa control chemicals. In these situations, hives with lower rates of CCD generally have higher varroacide residue levels. This suggests that beekeepers who are more vigilant in controlling Varroa are less likely to have CCD in their colonies. Varroa mites weaken bees’ immune systems and are themselves vectors of pathogens that may cause severe sickness in bees and trigger the CCD response. Ultimately, there is no credible scientific evidence demonstrating a link between the use of neonicotinoid insecticides and the occurrence of widespread honey bee colony losses, including CCD." http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/05/09/pesticide-profits-or-bees-bayer-responds/


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## BigDawg

*"The manufacturers of these bee-toxic chemicals are currently not required to carry out tests on their potential sub-lethal impact on bees.* Unlike older types of pesticides that killed bees if they were unlucky enough to be in a field when it was being sprayed, these newer "neonics" – which are coated on the seeds of crops such as sunflowers, sweetcorn and rape seed oil and are transported through its sap, protecting them from bugs as the plant grows – are not lethal to bees on contact at the doses that have been licensed for use. But what the long-term cumulative impact is we just don't know."

*"The licensing authorities also do not require tests on how the pesticides may be affecting bee larvae. *Bees collect millions of pollen particles from flowering plants and it's this bee food that contains miniscule amounts of pesticides. Honeybees bring it back to the hive and feed the protein-rich pollen to thousands of larvae before they metamorphosise into adult bees. You'd think the pesticide companies would be asked to prove their wares weren't harmful to these developing bees. But no."

*"A colony of honeybees is a superorganism, consisting of up to 50,000 individuals unable to survive by themselves for extended periods of time. To find out how damaging chemicals are to honeybees, we need tests on the whole animal – the colony. Again, nothing. So the pesticides have been approved for use all over the world without the relevant tests being conducted."*

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/14/bees-dying-eu-pesticide-ban


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## Daniel Y

gmcharlie said:


> ever wonder what we are doing right that there were 50000 bumbles in one spot????


There are not 50,000 bumbles in one spot, Any more. the restrictions came to late for them. Plus 50,000 does not sound like a huge population to me anyway. maybe 7 million or so. so they are killing off an endangered species as far as I can tell. A creature already on the brink of annihilation.


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## Rader Sidetrack

BigDawg said:


> Tell me, when RJ Reynolds scientists lied to the public for *decades* saying that smoking didn't cause cancer (even though there is crystal clear, indisputable evidence that their own research showed that it did) did you believe them?


In multiple posts recently you have tried to link tobacco use/smoking/cancer to bees/GMO/neonics. There really is no connection. There are people on _both sides_ of *any *controversial issue that are prepared to lie if they think it benefits them personally. For instance, there are multiple instances of individuals *falsely *making asbestos health claims. Of couse, inhaling asbestos is bad for humans, but here is a couple of lawyers and a physician convicted of conspiring to lie and make fraudulent claims about asbestos damage that simply did not happen :



> Two prominent Pittsburgh personal-injury lawyers conspired with a West Virginia radiologist to *fabricate bogus asbestos claims* against railroad operator CSX, a federal court jury in Wheeling, W.Va., decided on Thursday.Attorneys Robert Peirce and Louis Raimond, along with the doctor, Ray Harron, were ordered to pay $429,240, an amount that could later be tripled under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act.
> http://www.post-gazette.com/stories...lawyers-found-guilty-in-asbestos-case-667373/


Shall we connect asbestos claims with bee health as well? After all, asbestos and tobacco both impact human health. 

:ws:

.


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## Barry

BigDawg said:


> Wow Blue Diamond! You're on the clock at 1:30 am, huh? Are you ever going to tell us which pesticide company is paying you to post here?


Continuing to make assumptions like this actually devalues your posts. You're focusing on the person instead of addressing what they have to say and arguing/debating the content. Reading this on the sidelines, Blue Diamond refrains from personal remarks and simply provides their side of the debate/discussion.


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## gmcharlie

You need to learn a bit about bumble bees.. they are a super small hive/ solitary insect. (depending on which species) so 50,000 in a spot is freaking huge. if you assume a 5 square mile area and EVERY bee in that are was there, that means in the state of oregon there are 9,486,660,000 bummble bees.... Means 50k was a huge nothing....in the sort of a 9.5 billion number

ANd FYI,,, they almost all going to die shortly anyway(except queens...) 

Like I said a tragedy for those who are really bad at math... and like to make much tado about nothing.


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## BigDawg

It was the largest known mass bumblebee death in Oregon history....an unprecedented level of killing of an estimated 150 colonies.


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## jeffnmo

Radar you are right on this is about bee health and ccd not tobacco or any other subject. Too bad red herrings need to be thrown out.


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## jeffnmo

BigDawg; just as a point of reference this may be the largest kill in history, but to keep things in perspective the average bumblebee colony is about 50 bees per hive. That means that approx. 1,000 colonies were destroyed. This info is just to keep things in perspective and not skew numbers one way or the other.


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## BlueDiamond

The bottom line is the bumblebee and honeybee population in the Wilsonville, Oregon area was high at the time of the bumblebee kill incident despite years of using the Safari SG neonic insecticide; therefore banning neonics will won't help the bees because they were not in trouble to begin with. Plus the Safari SG only kills bees when it is accidentally sprayed on plants that are in bloom which rarely happens. Plus only a tiny percentage of the flowering shrubs and trees in the region in question are ever treated to begin with.


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## WLC

Bottom line: states have a right to ban or restrict pesticide use.


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## gmcharlie

WLC said:


> Bottom line: states have a right to ban or restrict pesticide use.


yes they do, and we can boycott states that do dumb stuff....... 

Jeffinmo... Keep in mind that the "actual numbers" were doubled at least 2 times if you read closely, and no one ever counted......or even swept them up.......
The state Etomoligist who went said maybe 10-15k in the first report.....


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## Barry

BlueDiamond said:


> The bottom line is the bumblebee and honeybee population in the Wilsonville, Oregon area was high at the time of the bumblebee kill incident despite years of using the Safari SG neonic insecticide; therefore banning neonics will won't help the bees because they were not in trouble to begin with. Plus the Safari SG only kills bees when it is accidentally sprayed on plants that are in bloom which rarely happens. Plus only a tiny percentage of the flowering shrubs and trees in the region in question are ever treated to begin with.


Given all that we know about this incident, this is a very reasonable bottom line. It was applicator error. All the other stuff is sideline noise.


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## BigDawg

There was another incident in nearby Hillsboro where the trees were sprayed in accordance with the instructions (i.e. the trees were not in bloom) and there were a large number of bumblebees observed dying at the base of a few trees over 2 months after Safari was applied.


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## Daniel Y

Charlie a good central figure for bumble bees is 2 to 300 bees per colony with a density of 3 to 4 colonies per acre. Given that bees can forage up to 5 miles that is a population of 19,200,000 bees. want to try again and make some number seem impressive?


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## WLC

If a product goes off target, there's no debate.

It killed native pollinators which should not have happened.

The State of Oregon is in the right to act, even though it's media/politics.


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## Barry

So what number are you using between 2 and 300? Site your source for the information as well.


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## cerezha

Barry said:


> .. It was applicator error....


 I love this! Applicator error! Barry, would you justify the same way if somebody in the hospital will make an *applicator error* resulting in serious damage to your poor bee body?


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## Barry

Sergey, would you ban or jail all nurses because of the negligence of one?


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## WLC

If native pollinators are being killed by a neonic product in public spaces, even when used according to the label, then there IS a problem.

While the Target incident was more recent and spectacular, the Hillsboro tree was sprayed in March! That's a good three months time lag between application and the bee deaths.

Something is amiss with Safari.


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## Daniel Y

Barry, we are not talking about negligence . We are talking about proper use of a product. to make it fit our switching of subject matter, a medicine. and if that proper administration of medication caused death. yes I would say it needs to be banned. Nearly all medication has a list of side effects. many even list death. are they banned? No. Given that can we be assured that pesticides that kill pollinators would be banned? no. I say we come up with something that can be applied to bees that will kill plants that may threaten them. Such as an herbicide in a dust form that will kill corn and soybeans.


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## Barry

Read the article in the OP!

"The Oregon Department of Agriculture suspects they were killed by improper application of pesticide."

Sounds like negligence to me.


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## WLC

What about Hillsboro? Sounds like they followed the labet to me.

Here's the Issue in context.

Bumble bees cannot detoxify neonics nearly as well as Honeybees can.

The LD50 of an insecticide is determined on Honeybees, NOT bumble bees.

They could have applied the product according to lable months before the Linden trees flowered, and there still would have been a bumble bee kill.

I'm not convinced that it's strictly an applicator error. Certainly not in the Hillsboro case.

I think that you cannot use Safari anytime before flowering without impacting native pollinators like bumble bees.

The label is wrong!


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## cerezha

Barry said:


> Sergey, would you ban or jail all nurses because of the negligence of one?


 At least in our hospital if nurse or doctor made "applicator mistake" - it would be all-hospital system consequence - they would ban "applicator" until it is clear that it is safe to use it. After such accident, obviously, all precautions will be made do not repeat it again. If some device or chemical would be found harmful to patients, of coarse it would be banned until issue resolved. But I do see your point - not all "nurse" should be banned - the source of the problem (which is a chemical in this case) should be banned until it is clear that it is safe. You have a good point.


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## BlueDiamond

Daniel Y said:


> Barry, we are not talking about negligence . We are talking about proper use of a product.


So far the Oregon Dept. of Agriculture has NOT made a determination that any proper applications of Safari SG caused the deaths of any bees. In June in Hillsboro, Oregon 100 dead bumblebees were found underneath this linden tree that was sprayed with Safari SG in March http://imageshack.com/a/img195/5088/46lq.jpg but maybe the nectar of that particular tree was toxic. The toxicity of linden tree nectar is known to vary from year to year and tree to tree.


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## Barry

WLC said:


> I'm not convinced that it's strictly an applicator error.


I'm not convinced about all the other speculation people are throwing out here. Until more facts are forthcoming from those in the know, I'll refrain from speculation.


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## WLC

I'm not speculating.

There are a number of studies showing how sensitive native bumble bees are to neonics, even when applied according to label.

It's a known issue with neonics.

Let's put it this way,

if you want to get rid of those pesky bumble bees that are competing with your Honeybees, apply a neonic product to a plant, according to the label, a few months before it blooms.

Your Honeybees will do alot better than the bumble bees will.


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## BlueDiamond

WLC said:


> I'm not speculating. There are a number of studies showing how sensitive native bumble bees are to neonics, even when applied according to label.


 What real world field studies have shown that foraging bumblebees are killed or seriously impaired from neonics that were properly applied according to the label?


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## WLC

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0066375

The question is: do they mean that you can't apply it to flowering plants? Or, do they mean that you can't apply it to plants while they are flowering?

One interpretation makes sense. The other one is ridiculous.

All that you need to do is mow the lawn to apply the product (clothianidin).

Mow, apply the product, water (all in early spring), and see how the clover blooms when you don't mow the lawn frequently enough.


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## cerezha

BlueDiamond said:


> ... maybe the nectar of that particular tree was toxic. The toxicity of linden tree nectar is known to vary from year to year and tree to tree.


 Nonsense - see my post above. Linden trees produce high quality honey in Europe, which regarded as a medicinal. My theory is that linden trees are known to be a natural detoxifiers - they adsorb dangerous elements from the environment and bury them inside. Since Safari is systemic, it is well possible that tree just accumulate too much (trying to detoxify) so the nectar/sap/whichever become toxic. The insinuation that linden tee itself is poisonous is a bogus - we use linden flowers for medicinal tea.


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## gmcharlie

Barry said:


> I'm not convinced about all the other speculation people are throwing out here. Until more facts are forthcoming from those in the know, I'll refrain from speculation.


Hooray....


Sevin dust applied to my grapes kills every Japenese beetle that gets in it.... Who speaks for the beetles? why do a bunch of bumbles rate higher than say a green horn worm?? 

Seriously though.. why is the bees more important than the tree that was intended to be protected??? if it was sprayed in march for something (don't know what) it obviously was problematic enough that someone felt the need to protect the tree from something.... so what about those bugs? 

As mentioned the number of bees killed is HIGHLY suspect, and if you do the math, the number of bees killed was .00000000000057 % of just washington....


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## jeffnmo

WLC; maybe i missed it..... where is the toxicology report that says both incidents were tied to safari? if one incident was incorrect application than fine and proper punishment are in order. but if there is no solid proof of the cause of death all the back and forth mean nothing. you can't fight an enemy effectively if you don't know the enemy. lets determine the cause fior certain and then move to correct the problem.


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## WLC

By the way, the half life of clothianidin in some soils is 15 years.

Anyone planting clover fields?

Well, if Bombus impatiens gets knocked off...

There are plenty of them (over 70% of bumble bees in the east)). They compete with Honeybees. Also, they're known hosts/reservoirs of DWV.

I could see why a beekeeper would spray Linden trees with Safari in early March.

Those pesky Bombus impatiens.


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## BlueDiamond

WLC said:


> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0066375


Abstract says: "after residues had dried, colonies were confined to [treated] forage for six days"

"Confined to forage" = forced exposure = a NON-real world field study.


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## WLC

Try reading the whole study. 

People use this clothianidin containing product on their lawns to treat grubs.

Mow, treat, and water.

I would be more concerned about clover fields planted after a clothianidin coated seed crop was planted on a particular soil type.

You can get pretty high clothianidin residue levels that way.


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## jeffnmo

WLC; You can see why any beekeeper woukd apply safari. So now it's monsanto and beeks, WOW!


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## WLC

If I didn't know that DWV could replicate in Bombus impatiens, and that at least one researcher suspects that Bombus impatiens can carry strains of DWV that are pathogenic to bees (via ingestion yet), I would say 'Wow!' too.

It looks like the Target incident provided us with a weapon against Bombus impatiens/DWV. Safari.

Strange but true.

Besides, Bombus impatiens isn't on the red list, and it's numbers are rising.


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## BlueDiamond

WLC said:


> Try reading the whole study.  People use this clothianidin containing product on their lawns to treat grubs.


Bayer doesn't make any lawn care products that contain clothianidin as far as I can tell http://www.bayeradvanced.com/lawn-care/products Bayer does have lawn care products containing imidacloprid and a pyrethroid and an organophosphate.

Retail stores like Home Depot and Lowe's do not carry enough inventory of lawn care products containing neonics for homeowners in any given suburb to treat even 1 in every 50 home yards per year. And only a small percentage of homeowners sign up for a Chemlawn type service. So the nectar of a large majority of dandelions and white clover flowers in suburban lawns will not contain any kind of insecticide. The study did not determine that free living foraging pollinators will drink harmful amounts of neonics from lawn flowers in a typical suburban setting.


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## cerezha

gmcharlie said:


> Hooray.... Who speaks for the beetles? why do a bunch of bumbles rate higher than say a green horn worm?? ...


 Well, did you hear about native pollinators/species? Bumblebees are one of them. And they are disappearing  I do understand that you personally do not care, but, believe or not - many others DO care:
"One bumblebee species that was once common throughout its range from Georgia State to Ontario, Canada has all but disappeared. A recent survey at places where Bombus affinis has been collected previously turned up empty handed in all but one location. Just a single bee was found on a woodland sunflower in southern Ontario's Pinery Provincial Park.

Bombus affinis used to frequent the farmlands, marshes and woods of eastern North America. It's been seen visiting many different kinds of plants, including ones that play important economic or ecological roles.

Although researchers at Toronto's York University captured 9,000 bumblebees from 2005 to 2007, they didn't find B. affinis among these at 42 locations. They searched sites in 14 states where the bees were collected before, including South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Maine.

A more detailed survey of wild bees around Guelph in southern Ontario finds that this isn't the only native bumblebee species to have disappeared there in the last 35 years. Two other Bombus species (B. pensylvanicus and B. ashtoni) that had been collected in the early 1970s were not among those recently netted. The region used to be particularly rich in bees, with 14 Bombus species identified in earlier surveys.

This research provides the first quantitative evidence from North America indicating the severity of *recent losses among native pollinators*. In Europe where bumblebees are more closely monitored, findings show that half the continent's species are declining. Three species of bumblebees have gone extinct in United Kingdom alone.

The reasons for a bee population's decline likely vary among species and habitats. Two agricultural activities could be extensively harming bumblebees, although the ramifications have yet to be adequately investigated in North America. Imported bees used for pollinating plants grown commercially in greenhouses are known to introduce diseases to their wild relatives. As well, a group of insecticides called neonicotinoids, that are highly toxic to bees, have been applied to North American crops since the early 1990s. "
http://www.currentresults.com/Wildlife/Endangered-Species/bumblebees-802141.php


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## BlueDiamond

cerezha said:


> I do understand that you personally do not care, but, believe or not - many others DO care:


The people who say they care (e.g. the pollinator protection groups) have not displayed much interest in issues that substantially impact the amount of available pollinator foraging and breeding habitat; e.g. they did not protest the Biofuels Mandate of 2007 http://www.ethanolrfa.org/pages/renewable-fuel-standard/ which is one of the main reasons alot of conservation reserve program land has been converted to corn production since 2007. Also the reason alot of farmers have invested in technology to convert wet, swampy areas of their farm (where wildflowers used to grow) to corn and soybean fields. And the reason they have been tearing down tree shelter belts and fence lines (along which wildflowers used to grow) to make more room for corn fields. Instead, the focus of pollinator protection groups has been about the largely hypothetical and imaginary harm that neonicotinoid pesticides are allegedly doing. The net result of this situation is that the amount of available pollinator foraging and breeding habitat is in continuing to decline, hence wild pollinator populations will continue to decline. Worse, even when you explain all this to pollinator enthusiasts they don't seem to care about all those non-pesticide related changes going on in agriculture, but instead to continue to stay focused on the goal of limiting or banning neonicotinoids.


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## BigDawg

Just out of curiosity, how many "real world field studies" has Monsanto, Bayer, and Syngenta conducted on neonics and their effects on pollinators? And please don't cite that one Bayer-funded research paper where the bees were only exposed in the field for TWO WEEKS, please show us some examples of long-term, "real world field studies" that demonstrate the safety of neonics to bees.



BlueDiamond said:


> Abstract says: "after residues had dried, colonies were confined to [treated] forage for six days"
> 
> "Confined to forage" = forced exposure = a NON-real world field study.


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## cerezha

BlueDiamond said:


> The people who say they care (e.g. the pollinator protection groups) have not displayed much interest in issues that substantially impact the amount of available pollinator foraging and breeding habitat...


 I am sorry, you picked another subject - I was talking about bumblebees decline - do you have anything to say on bumblebees subject? If not, than what was the purpose of your comment? Confuse readers? You have a tendency to switch from one subject to another - it makes communication (discussion?) impossible, because we are talking about different matters. My post was particularly about bumblebees compared to green horn worm by gmcharlie. My point was that there is substantial difference between native specie, the bumblebee and gmcharlie's green horn worm. The difference is that bumblebees is in decline and green horn worm is doing OK (according gmcharlie). Do you agree, that there is a difference?


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## BlueDiamond

BigDawg said:


> Just out of curiosity, how many "real world field studies" has Monsanto, Bayer, and Syngenta conducted on neonics and their effects on pollinators?


Real world field studies are part of the massive data package Bayer and other registrants submit to the EPA. Example: Valent USA, the registrant of Safari SG wrote on their website: "Valent products are extensively tested according to rigorous scientific guidelines and are labeled to protect the health and safety of consumers, workers and the environment, including pollinators." http://www.valent.com/newsroom/news...t-issues-statement-on-oregon-bee-incident.cfm
If those "rigorous scientific [testing] guidelines" were inadequate then there would be lots of incidents of unintended pollinator kills because the registrants failed to test their products adequately in the real world prior to registration. But there are few such incidents which is an indication the testing protocols are adequate.


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## gmcharlie

cerezha said:


> I am sorry, you picked another subject - I was talking about bumblebees decline - do you have anything to say on bumblebees subject? If not, than what was the purpose of your comment? Confuse readers? You have a tendency to switch from one subject to another - it makes communication (discussion?) impossible, because we are talking about different matters. My post was particularly about bumblebees compared to green horn worm by gmcharlie. My point was that there is substantial difference between native specie, the bumblebee and gmcharlie's green horn worm. The difference is that bumblebees is in decline and green horn worm is doing OK (according gmcharlie). Do you agree, that there is a difference?



Your so far off Sergey, its not even funny..... neither is in any way endangered... The worm, or bumbles as a whole..... (or honeybees for that matter) My point which you totaly missed was sarcasm......... We (you and big dawg) stand up and scream about a few bees, and yet I would bet a lot of money you have pesticides in your home, and use them... Hypocrisy.. kill one bug but the other is sacred??? why is a roach motel fine, or sevin on your fruit?? Most of us have ant poison...... the list goes on... Even you greenies use "soap and vinegar" to kill bugs... why is that okay, but its not okay for someone else to target a pest they didn't want?????

Do the Math. figure out its just a super tiny percentage and that in the real picture its not a problem
And that area in Ontario your commenting about, do you have a clue as to the cause? Cause it sure is not farming....nothing there to farm.


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## Daniel Y

gmcharlie said:


> 1. why is a roach motel fine,
> 2. Even you greenies use "soap and vinegar" to kill bugs... why is that okay, but its not okay for someone else to target a pest they didn't want?????


1. becasue they effectively target the pest.
2. I have not heard anyone complain about a targeted insect. it is the missing the target that concerns them.

Are you saying you think they internationally targeted those Bumblebees?


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## gmcharlie

It may be they did... I don't have a clue why someone would spray a linden tree at the mall...??? beats me...
What I amtrying to say is someone used that pesticide on purpose. some off target bees got killed... Not anywhere near a statewide or nationwide crisis..... every year house burn down from roach bombs think of all the poor mice......
that number of bumbles in a small area is a drop in a very large pond.... and yet 1000,s of articles and hand wringing..... its insane!


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## BigDawg

Charlie, this is one instance where we actually got to observe the bee deaths because they died in a heavily visited asphalt parking lot where they stuck out like sore thumbs. But what about when Safari is applied to trees in a field or weeds in someone's back yard, or, when the bees don't die right away and actually fly a ways before they die? Would anyone really notice? Of course they wouldn't, and THAT is the real problem--what are the impacts upon pollinators from these products that we can't see? 

There is no doubt--*none*--that bees are in decline, the key is to find out what role these poisons are having in their decline.



gmcharlie said:


> It may be they did... I don't have a clue why someone would spray a linden tree at the mall...??? beats me...
> What I amtrying to say is someone used that pesticide on purpose. some off target bees got killed... Not anywhere near a statewide or nationwide crisis..... every year house burn down from roach bombs think of all the poor mice......
> that number of bumbles in a small area is a drop in a very large pond.... and yet 1000,s of articles and hand wringing..... its insane!


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## BlueDiamond

BigDawg said:


> Charlie, this is one instance where we actually got to observe the bee deaths because they died in a heavily visited asphalt parking lot where they stuck out like sore thumbs. But what about when Safari is applied to trees in a field or weeds in someone's back yard, or, when the bees don't die right away and actually fly a ways before they die? Would anyone really notice? Of course they wouldn't, and THAT is the real problem--what are the impacts upon pollinators from these products that we can't see? There is no doubt--*none*--that bees are in decline, the key is to find out what role these poisons are having in their decline.


The range and abundance of certain SPECIES of bumblebees have been in decline, but that's been true for millenia; i.e. the range of some species contracts whereas the ranges of others expand. And the declines predate the time (~2003-2006) when neonic usage became widespread. Obviously the bumblebee species that was present in the Wilsonville, Oregon asphalt covered parking lot was wildly abundant despite 5-10 years of neonic usage in the region. 

The Wilsonville bumblebee kill was a rare accident - the applicator sprayed during bloom when he shouldn't have. So bee kills will occur only during rare cases of product misuse. So your question: "what about when Safari is applied to trees in a field or weeds in someone's back yard, or, when the bees don't die right away and actually fly a ways before they die" is not really a reasonable question to ask because not many people are spraying trees in bloom plus only a tiny fraction of flowering trees in Wilsonville, Oregon region are sprayed with anything. If most of them were sprayed, then Home Depot, Lowes, the farm supply stores and ag chemical distributors that landscapers buy from would stock huge inventories of neonic insecticides, but they don't.


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## jeffnmo

Guys I'm a pretty plain and simple guy but there seems to be a battle of two sides both with the intent of helping out bees. Do insecticides kill bees, of course they do. Are they solely responsible for CCD my guess is no. The reports I've read and struggled to uinderstand seem inconclusive on many fronts. My humble opinion is that chemicals coupled with lack of natural forage, mites and viruses have all combined to lead us to this point. so maybe we can all agree to tackle this problem together and let egos and agendas be put aside.


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## gmcharlie

jeffnmo said:


> Guys I'm a pretty plain and simple guy but there seems to be a battle of two sides both with the intent of helping out bees. Do insecticides kill bees, of course they do. Are they solely responsible for CCD my guess is no. The reports I've read and struggled to uinderstand seem inconclusive on many fronts. My humble opinion is that chemicals coupled with lack of natural forage, mites and viruses have all combined to lead us to this point. so maybe we can all agree to tackle this problem together and let egos and agendas be put aside.



Then our "argument" has not been in vain... at least one person (several I am sure) have actually read both sides... and thought it out...... for many times that has not been the case on blog like this....... and is definatly not the case in the media....

I am sure most argueing for common sense agree with you and don't have an agenda, except not to stop things that actualy help bees, and farming.


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## BlueDiamond

gmcharlie said:


> except not to stop things that actualy help bees, and farming.


Within the past few days an Oregon congressman and 3 anti-pesticide groups decided even the neonic crop seed treatments should be banned (not just the ornamental plant type use treatments):
http://blumenauer.house.gov/images/stories/2013/Save_Americas_Pollinators_One_Pager.pdf

Excerpt:
"The Save America’s Pollinators Act of 2013 directs the Environmental Protection Agency to suspend use of the most bee-toxic neonicotinoids for use in seed treatment, soil application, or foliar treatment on bee attractive plants within 180 days…"

Supported by: Center for Food Safety, Xerces Society, NW Center for Alternatives to Pesticide


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## jeffnmo

The proposed legislation doesn't surprise me. This country has developed a bad case of knee jerk reaction. We think we know what is wrong and have all the answers which often leads us into another catastrophy. I live in a rural area where at present our natural forages are good and you'll find many bumbles competing for clover with the honey bees. right across the road and for miles around we have planted fields. Since I just put in my 2 hives in April I don't have years of practical experience but my mentor does and he feels my hives are in excellent shape. I could lose all this winter but am not going to panic or look solrly at only one potential problem.


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## mac

BlueDiamond said:


> And only a small percentage of homeowners sign up for a Chemlawn type service.


 I'm sure you have numbers to back up that atatement Yes/??


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## mac

BlueDiamond said:


> The people who say they care (e.g. the pollinator protection groups) have not displayed much interest in issues that substantially impact the amount of available pollinator foraging and breeding habitat; e.g. they did not protest the Biofuels Mandate of 2007


 Yes we did


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## mac

BlueDiamond said:


> The range and abundance of certain SPECIES of bumblebees have been in decline, but that's been true for millenia;


 you have no data to back that claim.)


BlueDiamond; said:


> Obviously the bumblebee species that was present in the Wilsonville, Oregon asphalt covered parking lot was wildly abundant despite 5-10 years of neonic usage in the region.


Speculation on your part 



BlueDiamond said:


> The Wilsonville bumblebee kill was a rare accident - the applicator sprayed during bloom when he shouldn't have. So bee kills will occur only during rare cases of product misuse.


Again speculation 


BlueDiamond said:


> not many people are spraying trees in bloom plus only a tiny fraction of flowering trees in Wilsonville, Oregon region are sprayed with anything.


you don't know that


BlueDiamond said:


> If most of them were sprayed, then Home Depot, Lowes, the farm supply stores and ag chemical distributors that landscapers buy from would stock huge inventories of neonic insecticides, but they don't.


 And again speculation on your part.


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