# The trouble with packages verses nucs.



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

First you need to understand how packages are put together. Queen breeders do a graft. Some of the bigger guys are doing 500/5000 cells a day. When the cells are ready they install these cells in baby nucs and let them hatch/mate. Then they pick these queens when they see eggs. With you buying nucs you can see if the queens have a good laying pattern or not. With packages there crap shoot. OK back to the baby nucs. I have seen baby nuc yards with 500 nucs in them. All the cells hatching within 48 hours of each other. Now think about this. This means they will all be going on mating flights together as well. Do you know for a queen to be mated correctly it takes 15/20 drones to do the job. Now times this with the 500 queens in this yard. You need thousands of drones to mate all of these queens. This is the main reason for package failure is the queens. Step 2 after mating. Crew picks these queens and shove them in cages while another crew is busy shaking bees from other hives. So with being said the bees you get with the packages don’t even belong to the queen you get. So this is why I thank packages are a waste of money IMO. This is why you do not want to release the queens as soon as you receive the packages as well. Why not spend a few extra dollars and get a nuc? Check out the nuc before you load it. Check egg laying pattern, signs of foulbrood, chalkbrood, mites, beetles, ETC. Also most of these packages are put together in the South. Will the bees you get from their work in the cold North? Probably not, but if you can get these to over winter – then by all means – split it in the spring. Maybe 2/3 times. Let them raise their own queens from their eggs. This is how I have been raising my own bee’s treatment free for the past 7/8 years. When I split – I split whole boxes. This is how - Check the bees – Divide the brood/ make sure all boxes have a frame of eggs – 3 or 4 frames of brood each box. Divide the honey/pollen as well. Next day go into yard – top box has a lid – flip it upside down and install a bottom on it – Put a top on the next box and repeat until you have a single. Load the extra splits and move down the road at least 2 miles and set them down. Give them 4 days – check the flight of the bees – the old queen – the bees will be going just like normal because they have the old queen (like they swarmed). After 5/6 days check this hive for fresh eggs. If they have them you now know where the old queen ended up. Leave the others alone until they have time to mate – I give the splits 28 days. Then you can check them for queenrite. You don’t want to open unqueened splits because you may crush the new queen cells. And one other thing – make sure the splits have enough feed to hold them 28 days as a hive with no queen will starve to death on a honeyflow. Without a queen – they will not make enough honey to keep them going. (Feed if any dough).
This will also let you select hives that will over winter as the hive you split made it. Also – did you have to do a mite treatment? If not – guess what – odds are you will not have to treat the splits as well (maybe these new bees/splits have a little resistance like the parent hive) 
Any way – this is how I run 300 hives and rebuild my bees. Been working for me 38 years. Hope this helps you new guys/gals


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I saw 4 queen cells that got split in half in a nuc hive
check today. Oh well, nothing I can do now. I can only 
keep the cell that is not attached to another nearby frame. So far I
found only one in another nuc hive. Should be a good queen since it
is full of RJ now. Waiting for it to be cap in another day or 2.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

sakhoney said:


> Also most of these packages are put together in the South. Will the bees you get from their work in the cold North? Probably not,


I'm probably going to get some slack from this, but this statement is false. Bees adapt. I mean it just sounds stupid. I bought 2 packages from Georgia and I live in Chicago. Big climate difference both survived.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Billboard - of all the info in this thread - And it states "probably" - That's all you absorbed from this write up? holler at me when you run 300 and up to 800 hives for 38 years - would ya
As for the rest - This was just for information about how packages are put together and how to release the queens when you get them home. 
TF free for 8 years
SAK


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Like i said ill get criticism for it. Well then you should know then that shouldn't be said. I just hear it so much and it stops people from buying. If the bees dont make it chance are its the beekeepers fault and instead of taking blame they insist the bees were from the warm south and not used of the cold. Sorry if it offended you.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I can see that the huge demand for packages may have resulted in some less than optimal results. Demand seems to have made nucs hard to find when folks want them most - less so with packages. I've had good success with half to full medium splits, and 3-4 days before queen check & release (if needed). This has worked for both packages & splits

Last year, for the first time ever, I had a couple packages that failed. The bees were from Western Colorado, with Cali queens. For decades my queens & packages came from Texas and have thrived in the cold Colorado winters. I'd have to agree that the 
"Southern bees can't handle the cold" may be a misconception perpetuated by the inexperienced or uninformed. After ~40 years of beekeeping in Colorado, it sure isn't true around here.

Hows that for a diplomatic "you're both right" answer?


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Billboard - not offended - just stating what I know - and your right - bees do adapt - hence the word probably. But I also know if you can get a hive to make it through winter in the snow - for sure try to make your stock from them. Heck - I have bees here that can't take the Texas heat. 
I know that package's are EZer to ship - But these starting beekeepers need to know what there getting. I've had talks with some and they are hell bent on turning there queens loose.
Just can't beat a good nuc for starting out IMO.
Colobee - you should run for office somewhere - talk about diplomatic 
Why are you still buying bees - why not make your own splits and roll you own queens?


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

I only started 3 years ago and looking back I wish I had started with a nuc. However the local inspector brings packages up and it is real easy to fall into getting packages because of the simplistics. There also are no local nuc sellers and for me it is hard to go long distance to get bees right now. I will say that for me packages are an easy way to recoup losses. I got a couple this year and as they build up I am splitting with queens from known suppliers. I also hope to raise a few queens myself this year. The other reason I get packages is I like Carniolans and it is certainly hard to find anything other than Italians around here. I do not know why more of new bees do not get Carniolan bees. I feel that they are more tolerable of newbies any the queen can be so prolific. This makes it easy to replace the ones that you accidentally kill by over inspecting. Just my opinion, but I do believe for the value a nuc would be the best way to start out.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

And that is what this is all about - I for sure don't have anything against packages - this was more of a why you don't release queens early, ETC. And don't take it to hard if the queens fail ETC.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

2 Georgia packages. 20 local swarms and cutouts.
Guess which ones did not make it thru the winter.
I'll "probably" never buy another package of bees.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Well aunt betty - I rest my case
Plus with that many hives - you should never have to buy any more - any way - split away


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

right...


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

With 300 hives and 8 years tf, how do you
keep the mites out of your hives? 
Do you use the mite biting bees, the Russians or the brood break with
a new queen method? Just want to know how you are able
to achieve this amazing result so far.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

All my packages and local swarms have survived the winter just fine. There's a lot more that goes into surviving winter than the region of origin.


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## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

Both our Georgia packages, that arrived 3rd week of March, survived and thrived. The package last year gave us the most honey. It was installed on full comb with capped honey frames.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

I can't seem to get any information on nucs for sale around me. The local club pushes new beekeepers to go with packages and didn't mention other options. Being new, it took a while to understand other options were actually available and better.
I really don't want a package from my area. sounds like they are all from the commercial almond pollinating business and I loath what the big ag indusrty does to the almonds with pesticides and all their water use especially during droughts. 1 gal per almond! I really want no part of it. 
I just had a mentor turn me down because I said I would rather have a swarm and requeen over having a package. My club seems really rigid.
I really appreciate the information I have gotten on here as it really contrasts with the locals input so far.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Beepro - First year of TF bees I was kicked hard. went from 100 hives to 20 - then said what the heck - they make it or they don't. Started splitting - didn't buy any bees - split until I am now at 300 and never looked back. I did freak a couple of years back when I saw a few mites in my hives and ordered 150 strips of checkmite - but the bees were booming. checkmite arrives and I put it into the barn - and just watched the bees - Checkmite is still in the barn where it remains today. I was ready to treat/next thing ya know the bees cleaned up the mites and the honeyflow started. I still loose about 20% every winter but hey - Better than forking out $ for treatment. EZ to catch up with fall nucs or spring splits.

DIYmom - that was the idea behind this write up - I am in no way condemning packages - some people have good luck with them. Just telling ya'll how there put together. Some people believe those producers go through a big hive/catch the queen/add her bees to the package. Not even close. As far as your turned down mentor - There is a whole lot of info here - and with some photos - you can usually get all the help/answers you need.

Oh and one other thing - around me are several commercial operations (around Beaumont Texas) and I'm still doing the TF deal.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Diymom, you are not the first person I have heard talk about how ridged the clubs can be. For living in a state that is supposed to be so free thinking, it appears the bee club has not yet caught on. Stay away from the negativity and learn on your own. in other words, DIY. You can find all the help you need here but beware, every question will have more than one answer and you will need to decipher which road you wish to take. The problems you are finding in finding a nuc seller in your area is the main reason most people start with packages. There are not enough sellers of nucs for the demand. Yes. packages are not perfect but they are a great way to get started and can be way less expensive than buying a nuc. I started with packages and never bought a nuc. I have never regretted it.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks for the good tips.
Here is where I'm at now.
Split the heck out of them. Watch the mites grow and fall.
Build up the hive numbers with the Spring and Autumn new queens using
Mel's method. I'm right behind you following your foot steps. The moderator here
trying to find a method to be tf surrounded by big commercial operation where he's at.
Maybe you 2 can exchange some good infos.

diymom, there are many good mentors here. Sometimes they have differences in opinions
but that is o.k. because you will be watching your bee's progress to dictate which method to
use. When I started I did not have a mentor either. First year was the hardest after buying
the AHB hives. It was sink or swim in which I sunk for good. Then like the bees I rebound to
start all over again buying new queens and new nucs. You don't have to go the package route if
you don't want to. Just search on CL to find some local beekeepers for some nucs. A bit expensive
but worth the price.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Beepro - what is Mel's method of raising queens?


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Thanks for the advice, it was really surprising to encounter such hostility to any other approach to beginning beekeeping. I thought it would be more like education on your options than a one approach model. I live in a conservative pool in a liberal minded state. I am conservative too, but I'm against treatment if and when possible. Anyways looks like I found another time demanding hobby within which I have gravitated toward the higher maintenance and more complicated avenues. Diy I will, as usual.
I want a shirt that says "no nucs" because it's the reality of my area, no nucs which is really weird since you can pretty much find anything in southern California and usually close by.
I am going to a different, much smaller club and they specialize in swarms and cutouts. That's probably what I'll end up starting with because I am nuts. The members say they often get non africanized swarms. I also found a place that sells vsh-Italian queens I could potentially use to requeen if needed. 
I wish I could find a tf nuc!!!!!!
I think I'll pester or bribe someone local on here until I can get a split or nuc from him.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The trick is to get to know someone local on a friendship level.
They will be happy to spare you a nuc split when that time comes.
Always start with a little gift first to get this friendship going.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

That's no lie - anybody in SE Texas needing a nuc - let me know. I can also answer most of your questions - even if it starts like this - well this is what I would do
HAHAHA


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## cobeek (Apr 14, 2015)

sakhoney,

honest question...is it fair to compare TF and splitting with the rest of the country when you live in SE Tejas? Just wondering what effect you think AHB has on your genetics and splitting practices, or if you don't think it applies to your apiary, why not?

Like I said, its an honest question, wondering what you think? I think packages work fine if you have drawn comb but I am a newbee.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Maybe he's able to flood his local DCAs with all
the EHB genetics. That way he's not worry about the AHB there.
I'm sure he doesn't like to work with the mean bees too.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

As of now I have no AHB - Now bees overwintered are a little sparky but after splitting they settle right down, As stated I am TF and running around 300. I just keep splitting my survivor stock bees every spring - gives me a good mix. Also I mostly do in the yard splits - Splitting season here has you wading in the mud and hauling out on a 4 wheeler.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I agree with sakhoney on most of what is posted. I did notice one point. Yes a lot of drones are required for queen breeding yards. Many breeders take measures to produce them as well. I am not sure they produce enough when you consider the ratio of drones to queens required. I will add one more negative I see in queens mated in mini mating nucs and then stuffed in a cage. I have at least read that delaying a newly mated queen from laying can actually damage her. She mates, begins to load up on eggs and those eggs need to be laid. Some of what I read did not talk about a day or two it mentioned something more like an hour or two. This is even mentioned in some of the older books where queens that had perfectly adequate laying patterns where found to hardly lay at all once they had been mailed to a buyer. Just because bees survive some particular treatment does not mean they are okay. Personally I have captured swarms or done cut outs. and the disturbance to the queen can range from a few hours to a few days as far as I can tell. I did a cut out of a swarm that had taken up residence just 7 days prior. the colony already had 5 pieces of comb started with brood filling 3 of them. And either it was the primary swarm of a very small colony or it s (most likely) a small after swarm that had a queen that needed to get mated before laying. In addition I also read some information that the rate at which a freshly mated queen can lay. determines to some degree how productive she will ever be able to get.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

I have no problem with southern bees ... of course, I live in Alabama 
If you want early bees, this is where they come from.
IMHO, (I am a newbie!), The technique might be to get any bees ( but not AHB!!!) as a nursery/starter box, then requeen with the queen genetics of your choice, late enough to get a well mated queen, but early enough so that those genetics can make up the bees of the hive going into winter.
pkg vs nucs ... not legal to transfer bees on comb _into_ the state f Alabama.
There is a pollination bee keeper south of me, I do not understand all there is to figure out about that.
year #1, I pre bought 2 nucs, killer price, but I did not receive the NUC's until _July_. They were weak, one immediately superseded. I purchased a "ready nuc" locally off Craigslist. Strong nuc, but it robbed out my other boxes 2 or 3 times. (newbies learn so much! this is the south, I still went into winter with 3 hives!)
I swore never to pre purchase a NUC again, next year bought a couple of pkgs of "treatment free" Russian/feral cross from an apiary in Tennessee. One did OK, the other not so much. this year came out of winter with 9 hives & a weakling.
Hived a swarm this spring, 
Never say never, & "past performance is no guarantee of future performance".
Dive in, roll the dice, & play the cards you are dealt.
As another bee keeper says, "everything works if you let it"
Good Luck with your bees. CE


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Thought it might be a good time to recycle this one


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