# A question for queen breeders



## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

What is the most efficient mating Nucs?
I have a few different styles (Minis, 4 ways, 2 ways and queen Castles) and can House approximately 45 Queens with what I have. I am needing to invest into or build enough to House about an additional 100. What would you do? I’m thinking of adding another 25 or so minis from mann lake and build a bunch more 4 ways like Mike Palmer uses. I like the fact that I only need about 1 cup of bees to populate the minis but I also like the option of overwintering some queens in the 4 ways. I’m stuck and looking for some advice.


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> What is the most efficient mating Nucs?
> I have a few different styles (Minis, 4 ways, 2 ways and queen Castles) and can House approximately 45 Queens with what I have. I am needing to invest into or build enough to House about an additional 100. What would you do? I’m thinking of adding another 25 or so minis from mann lake and build a bunch more 4 ways like Mike Palmer uses. I like the fact that I only need about 1 cup of bees to populate the minis but I also like the option of overwintering some queens in the 4 ways. I’m stuck and looking for some advice.


Efficient how?

Queen castles are nice because you can repurpose old equipment, use the same frame, and end of queen season remove 3 of the last 4 queens, wait a couple days and pull divider and you have an 8 frame hive going. I did this, and just overwintered it, hive still kicking.

Mini mating nucs would require less bees overall, so the bee cost is smaller than the queen castle, but requires new hardware.

I'm putting wax strips in frames for mini nucs today, and building a 10frame size box to get them drawn out.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

In an earlier thread somewhere a beekeeper mentioned 3D printed mating nucs and I did not give that Idea much credibility, that was before I inherited a couple of printers. Now saying this I have 24 x 4 frame mating nucs but they fill so quickly with bees once a good queen is mated that I end up with 4 over 4 and end up just selling as a nuc. However I have now started building mini nucs that have a built in frame feeder and 3 small frames derived from a medium ritecell foundation cut into 3. So the plan is to fit the 3 pieces of foundation into a frame with a screwed on bottom bar, let it be drawn out in a colonies brood box then remove with the brood and bees the bottom bar removed and the 3 pieces of foundation separated and fitted into the small frames and put into the small mating nuc with a queen cell to follow the next day. Four foot stakes will be driven into the ground and 2 of these nucs will be screwed onto the stakes. I will make up 4 of these and try them out in the spring. This is how far I have gone with the queen mating box.



















Johno


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

johno

What is your comb area on those?

The frames I built yesterday have an area of 5" x 4 3/4"

This will be first year with mini mating nucs, trying to decide on 2 or 3 of these frames. Probably 3?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Jcase, I cut a medium Mann Lake plastic frame into 3 so I end up with 51/2" across and 5" down. The advantage of this is that I can put those 3 pieces back into a standard frame to get them drawn out and when I am done queen rearing put them back into a colony for next year, I will run a coating of colored latex paint over the top to mark them so that they can be easily found. They will cost me about $10 each in materiel but no labor as I just provide a roll of plastic turn the printer on and remove the box 30 hours later and at this point hope we do not have a power dip in between.
Johno


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

johno said:


> Jcase, I cut a medium Mann Lake plastic frame into 3 so I end up with 51/2" across and 5" down. The advantage of this is that I can put those 3 pieces back into a standard frame to get them drawn out and when I am done queen rearing put them back into a colony for next year, I will run a coating of colored latex paint over the top to mark them so that they can be easily found. They will cost me about $10 each in materiel but no labor as I just provide a roll of plastic turn the printer on and remove the box 30 hours later and at this point hope we do not have a power dip in between.
> Johno


Ok, so I guess I'll roll with 3 frames then.

I'm looking at no more than $5 cost on mine, but needs some labor.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Printing the frames for these it ends up at 14 grams per frame at 1.8 cents per gram so is 28 cents per frame and the box at 200 grams is $7-20. If they work out OK I could make up quite a lot in the winter There is still a lid to be made so we will not be far from the $10 each. I would guess making frames by hand would be a pain if you can find a buddy with a decent size printer I could send you a STL file for the frames.
Johno


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

johno said:


> Printing the frames for these it ends up at 14 grams per frame at 1.8 cents per gram so is 28 cents per frame and the box at 200 grams is $7-20. If they work out OK I could make up quite a lot in the winter There is still a lid to be made so we will not be far from the $10 each. I would guess making frames by hand would be a pain if you can find a buddy with a decent size printer I could send you a STL file for the frames.
> Johno


Please post updates on how it works out, I will just buy a printer if it goes good.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My opinion on mating nucs:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm#matingnucs


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

johno said:


> Printing the frames for these it ends up at 14 grams per frame at 1.8 cents per gram so is 28 cents per frame and the box at 200 grams is $7-20. If they work out OK I could make up quite a lot in the winter There is still a lid to be made so we will not be far from the $10 each. I would guess making frames by hand would be a pain if you can find a buddy with a decent size printer I could send you a STL file for the frames.
> Johno


How many bees do you plan to put in those? cup and a half?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I will take out the frame from a colony and the frame full of nurse bees on that frame, so it is hard to say how many bees will go on. There will have to be enough to cover any brood that is on the frame so I may or may not add more . we will see. I want to set them up for II queens as I progress with the printing of II equipment. Started to try to draw a few tips the other day but will have to try to cool the flame a little by controlling the gas air mix.
Johno


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> and build a bunch more 4 ways like Mike Palmer uses.


So I build boxes that hold 10 mini-frames, and fit on 1/2 of my 4 way box. I use them to build up the 4 ways turned into 2 ways. Two of these boxes fit on one 4 way box. They can be used as 2 way mating nucs by splitting them off with bees and brood, adding a follower board in the center of the combs, and a bottom board with an entrance at each end. Works great. And...interchangeable with the 4 ways.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> So I build boxes that hold 10 mini-frames, and fit on 1/2 of my 4 way box. I use them to build up the 4 ways turned into 2 ways. Two of these boxes fit on one 4 way box. They can be used as 2 way mating nucs by splitting them off with bees and brood, adding a follower board in the center of the combs, and a bottom board with an entrance at each end. Works great. And...interchangeable with the 4 ways.


After looking at some different designs, I have pretty much settled on the four ways. Like yourself, my mentor uses the 4 ways with the boxes on top that hold the mini frames. He winters his with 20 Mini Frames per side. 10 on each side of the divider and 10 above in shorter Nuc boxes. I like the Mann Lake Minis that I have but they are certainly one purpose. 
Time to get busy building!!!


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

I have been using these for a couple years and am starting to develop a system that I really like. I call them "Crossboxes." The box has the frame rest on the long side. We use medium 8 frame boxes and cut two 3/8 dados to run dividers (if you use 10 frame equipment, build 10 frame x-boxes). The frames run the short way across the box and the box is easily divided into three sections with three frames and a feeder in each. I build the frames by cutting down stock top and bottom bars and build the feeders from scratch using masonite and pine. I make a three way bottom board out of plywood and 3/8 lath. The lids are just flat migratory covers. Pretty simple. 

I catch my last queens sometime in august, around the time I do MAQS in my normal colonies. At the same time I pull the dividers and move the feeders to the outside and all the brood towards the middle, stack them up three boxes high, leaving the whole unit with one queen and feed them. This becomes the winter configuration. One queen, three medium depth boxes. 

When my first cells are ready, I start breaking them apart by splitting the boxes and adding dividers. I also divide up the bees and brood to a point. I do it pretty quick and dirty but I try to make sure each unit has some brood. Helps with drifting. For the second and third rounds of cells, Ill pull brood to keep their size down and to help get some foundation drawn. Ill use extra brood to stock new boxes. I like to keep them with 2 frames of brood and a foundation or an empty comb. I generally feed them with each round of cells. 

After a couple rounds of cells, I will pull half the queens and stack them up two high with the dividers still in place. I will put an excluder on top and a super or two on top of that. These three queen units can take advantage of a good honeyflow and are pretty good for comb honey. Then after the main flow, I will break them apart again for late summer/fall queens. 

When its all done, I pull the dividers and remaining queens, stack them up three high, and get them ready for winter. That's the season in a nutshell. 

For initially filling crossboxes, I have had good luck with shook swarms. I build them up just like a normal beehive. Once the comb is drawn and full of brood they are ready to break apart into nucs. If I have deadouts , I will sandwich a crossbox between the hive bodies of a good strong hive. After a couple weeks the crossbox is full of brood and ready to receive cells. 

I really like this system for its versatility. They are small enough to be efficient but big enough to hold their own for a little while. They are easy to stock. I can use the bees for pollination before queen rearing and honey production after. Also there is not a whole lot of extra equipment to store in winter. Just dividers and bottom boards.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Didn't like the Mann lake minis, had to feed every other day pretty much. The design is solid though. Just wish it was a little larger or held more than three frames


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

ApricotApiaries said:


> View attachment 37368
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> View attachment 37369
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> ...




There is a queen breeder in Oakdale ca that uses a similar system.They have been in the bee biz since 1955. Raising queens almost that long, must work. They used to have 16 people just catching queens every day.
That's where I learned to raise queens,long time ago.


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## Beetastic (Apr 12, 2011)

I use 5 frame deep nucs. I can let them grow if I can't visit in time, use excess to boost, and equipment is standard across the board.


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

Flyer Jim said:


> There is a queen breeder in Oakdale ca that uses a similar system.They have been in the bee biz since 1955. Raising queens almost that long, must work. They used to have 16 people just catching queens every day.
> That's where I learned to raise queens,long time ago.


i learned from a friend of mine who cuts frames for a bunch of the orland/Chico outfits. It made enough sense to me and now I've been trying to adapt his system to fit my schedule/region. A lot of people are set on 4 ways. I'm sure they work great, but so do these 3-way cross boxes. Pretty much anything can work so long as you have a system to justify it. Personally I wouldn't use anything that can't be combined to overwinter and potentially rent in pollination. 

Not do derail, but flyerjim, who raises queens in oakdale? The last few years I pollinated Around Escalon but was never aware of any queen producers in oakdale (shows what I know).


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

I’ve tried a bunch of different mating nucs. I came back to to where I started-the 5 frame deep nuc. I keep 8 on a migratory pallet which makes them easy to move. I move them over to single deeps at the end of the Queen Rearing season to overwinter them. Although we really don’t have winter in Central CA.


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## maxbees (Jan 17, 2018)

Can here somebody help with creation of hybrids how to do it ? Something like few generation idea ? mix between carniolan and ?


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I normally use 5-frame nucs (9" deep full-sized frames) for both queen-mating and building-up nucs, but this coming season I'm going to try 'half-sized' deep frames (which are actually nearer one-third, than one-half) for queen-mating, thusly:









Very similar to Michael Palmer's system, except I'm using fixed-position dividers and will be feeding via overhead inverted jars, housed inside a feeder shell. I've also made some dummies (shown in yellow) in order to experiment with reducing the frame count, and thus the number of bees needed. Looking forward to trying-out this smaller format ...
LJ


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Have you seen the mating that Exmoor uses?


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Have you seen the mating that Exmoor uses?


I don’t know if this was directed at me but to answer your question, I have not.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Don´t know about Exmoor, but Dartmoor used to use this, but square:

View attachment IMG_20180202_0004_NEW.pdf


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Have you seen the mating that Exmoor uses?


Hi Michael - if this was directed my way, then yes indeed, I'm conversant with Peter Little's system. Indeed, I've pinched one graphic from each of you (posted a long time ago over on the Brit Forum) and included them on a webpage, showing these as examples of tried and tested methods: http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/firewood07.htm Hope that's ok ?
The full story of how I turn firewood into frames can be found at:
http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/firewood.htm 
'best
LJ


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Yes LJ it was. No one here knows who Exmoor might be. I knew you would.


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