# cell builder feeding



## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Do any of you feed your cell builders Fum-B ? If so do you find it beneficial ?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

No.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

No


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Yes! Tylan 2. Ever since we've done the double shot combo we've had about zip of black queen cell virus or other issues come to think of it. Best thing one can do imo is make sure they have an over abunance of fresh pollen and way to may nurse bees. With these two items in the bank your 99% of the way there.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I have been reading a lot on the BQCV and was only concerned if I didn't feed them any Fum-B they could have issues. I only need 200+ cells this year and wanted to get some opinions.


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

If BQCV is a virus how does a treatment for bacteria (tylan) or spores affect it? Or is it not a virus?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I feed sugar water and pollen patties on my builders. I'm a firm believer in feeding the CB if you want big cells. No meds or other treatments. BTW, I have never seen BQCV, so I'm not sure how that might change the way I do things, but I'm pretty sure I would not likely start medicating without strong proof that there was some proven benefit.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Friend of mine swears by Nozevit for queen builders, can't say myself. Nozevit might represent a non-icky way to get the same effect as Fum-B. I might just have to stuff the feeder jars with oak bark chips.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I don't think I will be feeding anything other than syrup. I was trying to decide whether it was needed.
Thanks


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

If you decide to "treat" your cell builders/finishers, perhaps it would be best to do so in advance of putting cells in them.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

No, I don't put any foreign chemicals 
into my hives when not needed. Only used the
oav gadget once this year. Seems like
the natural way is the best prevention unless
you are sure you have some type of a disease or virus issue.
My bees are disease free now. So I don't see the 
need to put anything in from start to finish. I got
consistent strong big fat juicy queens. The secret is
in the RJ. Let the foragers bring in the resources for
the hive on a flow. Then you don't have to worry about feeding them.
You can if you want to further supplement feed them on patty and syrup.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

No


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

*I won't be treating them.* Thank you all for your input.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ben, what I have seen is that a good cell builder needs to want for nothing. Keep them full of proteins, carbs and young bees and they will generally perform well for you. However, if there is any problem at all in your hives it will manifest itself in the queen cells before you ever notice it in worker brood. I have seen builders that looked quite healthy yet which mysteriously had trouble raising consistently healthy cells even though the initial cell acceptance was good. However, when given a tm treatment those problems disappeared. Im not saying tm treating your builders is a requirement but I will say if you have ever experienced any sort of brood diseases in the past, foul brood may well be an unseen killer of queen cells.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

jim lyon said:


> However, if there is any problem at all in your hives it will manifest itself in the queen cells before you ever notice it in worker brood. I have seen builders that looked quite healthy yet which mysteriously had trouble raising consistently healthy cells even though the initial cell acceptance was good. However, when given a tm treatment those problems disappeared.


Jim, I think you are spot on with your assessment. I have been in operations where there are issues in the cell builders. When I look closely, I can often find a very mild foulbrood infection, normally EFB. It is surprising to me how little infection it takes to really manifest itself in the cells, which then creates a train wreck down the line!


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

jim lyon said:


> I have seen builders that looked quite healthy yet which mysteriously had trouble raising consistently healthy cells even though the initial cell acceptance was good.


Jim,

Would you be so kind as to elaborate what types of trouble you've seen. Was it EFB-like symptoms or other? Did you see total cell loss, or just a few? 

Thanks


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

jim lyon said:


> I have seen builders that looked quite healthy yet which mysteriously had trouble raising consistently healthy cells even though the initial cell acceptance was good.


This is the reason why we do what I call a "slash and burn" method of raising cells. Each one of our "stacks" gets to raise 180-270 cells the first round followed up by a second one of no more than 45 cells 4-5 days later. After that they are all cannibalised for mating nucs. Burn through a lot of pounds of bees this way but any "issues" are confined to a "small" lot. 

Building decent cells calls for the use of about 50 grams of bees per cell. Much higher than that and we waste bees. Lighter than that the cell take rate and quality tends to tank.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

AstroBee said:


> Jim,
> 
> Would you be so kind as to elaborate what types of trouble you've seen. Was it EFB-like symptoms or other? Did you see total cell loss, or just a few?
> 
> Thanks


The initial take is usually pretty decent and most of the cells get capped over properly but shortly after that the bees begin cleaning them out as the pupae die. If there have been problems you learn to be on the lookout for the bad ones as you install them as they are quite mushy and soft to the touch compared to a healthy cell which has the tough cocoon protecting them. If we happen to see it we normally give the builder (we use queenright builders) a tm treatment and and either take it out of production or give it a week off from cell building and that always seems to do the trick. As Joe mentions, it takes a real critical look at the hive to find anything at all that appears amiss and you may not even see that. Yellow Jasmine pollen can cause similar problems as can any pesticide problems in the area and of course there is always the suspicion of bqcv. Queen cell health is sort of the canary in the coal mine, most logically just because they are fed such a high concentration of nutrient rich royal jelly.


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