# These misterous bees



## Calbee (Sep 26, 2011)

Please help me unveil the following: My hive was thriving a month ago. Plenty of bees, enough brood, and honey. I checked them today. I saw a drastically dwindled colony, no pests, except for a few hive beetle, and a wasp flying outside by the entrance. No signs of dead bees by entrance. There was a frame of honey, so no starvation. Moreover, there many plants blooming yet. There is a queen, little (very) capped brood, not many bees. What happened? This is a regressed hive, no treatments whatsoever. Please help me with any thoughts about it.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Hello mites!


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

In California, mites explode in population in September. I test treatment free, and unlike other reports in other regions; mites in my controlled tests in California are as virulent as ever.

"Regressed" bees are an untested and unproven concept. A valid test would require paired replicates with and without the variable condition. The only controlled, refereed publications on "regression" have found no and/or negative effects.


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## Calbee (Sep 26, 2011)

JWChesnut said:


> In California, mites explode in population in September. I test treatment free, and unlike other reports in other regions; mites in my controlled tests in California are as virulent as ever.
> 
> "Regressed" bees are an untested and unproven concept. A valid test would require paired replicates with and without the variable condition. The only controlled, refereed publications on "regression" have found no and/or negative effects.


Thank you, Sir. Nonetheless, my bees are regressed and I have no mites issues.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

OH really? I've heard it befeore Calbee... I don't have mites..... I never seen mites in my hives... and yet, their hives collapse because of ........ I had a hive do exactly what ur hive just did about exactly the same time and all indications point to one thing.... If you want, pm me and we can look at it together or see if anything can be done to save them.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Calbee said:


> my bees are regressed and I have no mites issues.


You've tested for mites?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

JWChesnut said:


> "Regressed" bees are an untested and unproven concept.


Actually....they've been tested.


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## Calbee (Sep 26, 2011)

JRG13 said:


> OH really? I've heard it befeore Calbee... I don't have mites..... I never seen mites in my hives... and yet, their hives collapse because of ........ I had a hive do exactly what ur hive just did about exactly the same time and all indications point to one thing.... If you want, pm me and we can look at it together or see if anything can be done to save them.


There is no dead bees by the entrance, having mites on them, a clear indication that they could've been overwhelmed by mites. There is no such thing. Therefore, mites (varoa) talk is not the issue. It's something else. A month ago this hive was booming. Mites cannot do such a damage in such a short time. Anyways, the colony is still alive. It just dwindled a lot inexplicably to me.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Dead bees at the entrance is a sign of DWV. Mites carry a host of other virii. Mite carry virii that will cause hives to depopulate. They can kill a hive in a month in the classic September population spike. Sorry you don't want to believe this. I have been living with these parasites since 1992, and have performed many controlled observations. Yes, other issues can affect hives -- but the symptoms you are describing --- a late September collapse (coincident with Drone ejection) is entirely consistent with a mite-mediated virus.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

calbee, i notice your join date is 2011. is this colony in it's third year? do you know how to identify mite frass on the brood combs? sounds like a generous offer from jrg13, why not take him up on it?

unless you have performed a proper test for mites and/or examined the brood combs there is really no way you can rule them out. i agree with the others that mites are at the top of the list of suspects.

sorry about your bees.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Calbee said:


> Mites cannot do such a damage in such a short time.


Oh but they can and do.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Here, two hours drive south west of Sacramento, my bees show signs of DWV all year wrong, lots of crawlers but many hives producing a crop. Then, a few weak hives will dwindle and collapse from August through October. Other hives, choke full of bees in November, disappear or dwindle to a tiny cluster in the wet, cold spells of November, December and January. I also rarely see mites on bees. But I have blamed mite vectored viruses for years and this cause of death was confirmed by Randy Oliver. I had 36% average losses last winter, treatment free. I have 43 plus years experience keeping bees locally. 

>Thank you, Sir. Nonetheless, my bees are regressed and I have no mites issues.

Having followed Dee Lusby and Michael Bush for years, I conclude that Calbees has fallen prey to the cult like teachings of the small cell movement.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Although mites could very well be the issue, I don't think it can be said definitively with the little info you have given. A few of the other possibilities are you lost the queen due to swarming or failure and a new queen is starting to lay. Is the brood pattern that is there solid? If they have dwindled down due to mites I would expect to see what brood is emerging to have deformed wing virus and the capped brood pattern to be very spotty.

More info is really needed but having someone look at the hive that knows what to look for is going to be of greater help.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

My offer still stands, maybe you will learn something if we look at the hive together, or maybe I will. My hive didn't have a single dead bee around it either but that's not typically a symptom of mite collapse, I don't know why you think that. A rapid dwindling is classic varroa collapse, I don't know why you can't understand that.


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## Calbee (Sep 26, 2011)

JRG13 said:


> My offer still stands, maybe you will learn something if we look at the hive together, or maybe I will. My hive didn't have a single dead bee around it either but that's not typically a symptom of mite collapse, I don't know why you think that. A rapid dwindling is classic varroa collapse, I don't know why you can't understand that.


I don't understand it because I don't see the mites. Perhaps a few of them, which is normal. I don't see a Varoa infestation capable of triggering a virus. If hypothetically the mites are the problem, where are the dead bees? Being dead, they should be in the hive or by the entrance.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

> where are the dead bees? Being dead, they should be in the hive or by the entrance.


No, dying bees instinctively leave the hive. Consider for a moment that a hive typically replaces its entire population every few weeks, yet we never find thousands of dead bees piled up at the entrance or on the landing board. That's because they leave the hive and don't make it back. Ditto mite/virus infected bees. They leave.

JMO

Rusty


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

When they can fly, dying bees fly away or are carried away by healthier bees. I've seen hives dropping +/-100/day (I stop counting those) on a sticky board that I've never seen DFV or a mite on bees. Before I got mites (back in the 1980's) hives starved, but other than that pretty much always lived over winter. When varroa arrived the classic death was a strong hive completely dead in the fall (about now). No pile of bees except the last few on the bottom board.

Mites can also kill slowly. Your hive can just be weakened and die from winter stresses. Hives that used to be able to withstand cold, damp, nosema, etc. now have a lot more chance to not make it through winter. But what you described was what I used to see as the classic varroa crash.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Calbee said:


> I don't understand it


Please don't dismiss the advice, given in good faith, by the many experienced beekeepers here. They are not suggesting mites for some vindictive purpose. Yes...it might have been something else but the most likely culprit is varroa.
Please....listen with an open mind....and learn.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Cal,

How did the capped brood look if any? Were there pin holes punched in the cappings? There's a chance it's not mites, but what you describe is typical varroa collapse. I just went through it as well, I didn't think mites were an issue in this hive, it just had a brood break and a new queen, but it went boom to bust in 5 weeks and I can only say it was mite pressure and DWV, although I didn't see any bees with DWV last time I looked, the capped brood that was left seemed to be heavily infested with it.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Small cell hives die from mite infestation just as fast as the rest.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Never say never.

If I was within a couple of hours travel I'd ask to join JRG13 and you. Take the offer.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

For some reason the "M" word is just not mentionable in some circles. Any suggestions as to why a hive died would be considered, but NOT mxxxs. Seen it over and over.

Calbee there is not enough info to say why your hive died. If you can post a pic of the brood that would be very helpful.

However if you don't post one, I would have to agree with the others, the info you have posted thus far is very consistent with a hive dying from mite overload. However, within the possibilities from the info supplied thus far, could be queenlessness, or a number of other things also, which is where a brood pic would come in handy to help ID. But hives that die of mites often dwindle down quickly at the end, in exactly the manner you have described, to me, mites is the 95% likely reason at this point. A pic and more info will be helpful.

Also please bear in mind, these folks are not being unfriendly. Sometimes the answer we don't want to hear is the one we need to hear, and likewise seeking out the answer we want to hear, may lead us to the wrong answer.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Well said Oldtimer!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Charlie B said:


> Well said Oldtimer!


:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I am two hours from Calbees. I don't see many mites on my bees either. But, these are the mites I found on a Warre inspection board yesterday. It is a hive from a package that is declining and will probably fail. The package supplier said last year, "if you don't treat my bees they will fail".


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

If you have that many on your board, imagine the amount in brood cells multiplying.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Those aren't mites, those are red hots, you can't fool me.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

JRG13 said:


> Those aren't mites, those are red hots, you can't fool me.


I use Junior Mints and marsh-mellows as my queen cage candy so there is no way Red Hots could have gotten into the hive.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

What?? Jujubees and Dots work so much better frank!


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