# Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?



## drlonzo

Frank - The bees during the winter broodless period do not consume large amounts of honey as they don't have to keep the temp very high in the cluster, however, when they begin to brood up again, larger amounts of honey are consumed to keep the cluster warmer and to feed the young. 

So to answer the heading question.. Bees heat ONLY the cluster, not the hive.


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## beemandan

There are some fundamental laws of physics that cannot be ignored. Even if their intent is only to heat the cluster, ultimately that heat is dissipated into the surrounding air. The ability of that air to sink heat is dependent on a variety of things. Ventilation is one obvious thing. Another is the amount of surface area the hive presents to the outside......the greater the surface, the more heat is lost. So...keeping a load of empty boxes on top of your hive increases the amount of heat lost.


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## Dave Burrup

A couple of winters ago I took temperatures with a probe thermometer several times over the course of the winter. I picked days with varying temperatures, but no wind. As long as the cluster was tight and undisturbed the temperature outside the cluster was very near the ambient temperature. If the cluster broke the temperature in the hive rose, sometimes dramatically. I also weigh my hives frequently to determine food usage. The weights change surprising little until they start raising brood in February for us.
Dave


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## mgolden

Dave Burrup said:


> A couple of winters ago I took temperatures with a probe thermometer several times over the course of the winter. I picked days with varying temperatures, but no wind. As long as the cluster was tight and undisturbed the temperature outside the cluster was very near the ambient temperature. If the cluster broke the temperature in the hive rose, sometimes dramatically. I also weigh my hives frequently to determine food usage. The weights change surprising little until they start raising brood in February for us.
> Dave


How much wrapping and insulation were on the hives? How much insulation above the inner cover?

What was dimensions of bottom entrance? What were dimensions of top entrance(s)?

Was screened bottom board closed off?

With a probe, I have consistently measured temps above the inner cover of 20-30F more than ambient. These are well insulated hives with bottom entrance of 3/8 by 1 inch. Top entrances are a 3/4 round hole and 3/8 by 1 1/2 notch in inner cover.


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## enjambres

I live in very cold climate; not Alberta, Canada or International Falls, MN to be sure, but Z-4 can't be considered balmy.

I also had well-insulated hives (inside and outside of the box) and used quilt boxes last winter. (My first with bees.) Walls were probabaly at least R-10, some portions were R-20. And my cavities were smaller than normal, being only five to seven frames wide. My entrances are all reduced to about 1/2" square (one on each top and bottom. I had blankets wrapped around the sides, back and over the snugged-up group of hives.

I stuck temp probes through the upper hole (using my very accurate instant-read kitchen thermometer) many times during last winter's misery into the air space of the 1.5" feeding rim. I rarely got any reading below 50F and that only happened at night and when the outside air temps was below 0 F and the bees had withdrawn deeper into the hive. 

Generally during the day when the bees were moving round more, the temp at the top of the stack, in the feeding space was in the high 80s F, even when the outside temps were 10 to 40 F.

So to answer your question, what I found was that despite the elaborate "scientifically-derived" temp diagrams I have seen showing the air within a hive is at ambient, while the inner cluster, alone, is at bee-temps, my girls are defintely Hot Mamas, because they heated the air their boxes quite well.

Plus I believe that physics would still apply, even to my amazing bees. Heat rises. And the cluster is giving off heat, 24/7. 

If your bees are in ordinary single wall boxes, with little barrier to air exchange between the boxes' meeting surfaces, no insulation above or in the walls, then I think you'd find little warmth in the air around the bees. But not because they aren't giving it off, but because it escapes so rapidly. I read somewhere that natural bee caivities in tree have walls with R-5 to R-15. The single wall of a bee box is less than an inch thick. Pine has an R- value (depending on species and age) of between R-0.75 to R-1.22. To me, it's amazing bees survive at all in such awful conditions.

My hives were late swarms last year and only had a relatively few frames of honey/ sugar syrup. None weighed more than 70 lbs at the start of the winter. I fed sugar bricks all winter and they still had some capped honey and nectar left over in late April, which was the first time I could go in to see. I don't think being warm(er) made them eat more, but I did not have a scale last winter to weigh them. (I do this year, though, so we shall see.) All three of my colonies survived in excellent condition; even my dink, which repaid my efforts by growing into a 10-frame, 4-deep behemoth this summer.

The bees make a great deal of heat within the core of the cluster and a certain amount escapes to the air within the stack. If the boxes are insulated and well-fitted, then the air within the hive becomes and stays warmed. I think this considerably lowers the physiological cost to the bees of simple survival. If provided with a method for controlled air exchange to move the moisture from the bees' respiration out, then a cozy hive is much better than a leaky, frigid one, or even worse, a dank, humid, frigid one.

Even though my hives are bigger, with considerably more stores this year, I will be doing the same things to provide for their health and comfort.

Enj.


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## mgolden

Enjambres, I also have a feed rim. I have inserted the temp probe through the front 3/4 inch entrance. I also noted very high temps, so high(75F plus) that I thought the probe must be within the cluster.

So no nosema that other NY posters are concerned about as "high interior temp will cause too much bee activity and stores consumption".

I also used quilt boxes filled with shavings for the first time last winter and very pleased with interior hive warmth and dryness.

And was your spring brood/bee population build up early and large?


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## crofter

Do you suppose there would be a point of diminishing returns above which retaining more heat would cause higher metabolic rate and lead to undesirable consumption of stores?


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## Acebird

crofter said:


> Does the air temperature in the hive and surrounding surface affect how much honey they have to consume to maintain core cluster temperature?


Bees are not warm blooded animals. So if the temperature of the hive is such that the bees cluster they will have less bees burning fuel to maintain life. If the hive temperature rises so all of the bees are active (burning fuel) they will consume more fuel. It can't be any other way. Bees do not heat the hive it would not be efficient to do so. Can heat be trapped in the hive to attain a higher temperature on the inside vs. the outside? Yes. Is it beneficial? Not if it makes all the bees in the hive active. It would only be beneficial under extreme cold conditions where bee mass could get critical.


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## enjambres

I have no idea (because it was my first winter - and a weird, long, cold one, as well) if my brooding started early and was large. I know I was shocked, and a little appalled, to discover that they were beginning brood in mid-January. I thought that meant I'd have masses of baby bees by the end of Februaury, and even in a normal winter I have no foraging weather until early-April, at the earliest. But they knew what they were about and only made small numbers (based on the evidence down on the sticky boards, which I pulled and examined every week, all winter.)

Even my "dink" hive, Baby Fern, which was barely a double 5-frame nuc going into winter, grew into four 10-frame deeps over the summer.

I added small chunks of pollen patty starting on March 23rd.  As soon as I could (which was the last week of April last year) I opened the hive and began the laborious process of opening the sides of the brood nest, every 7-12 days for the next seven weeks. I was trying to forestall swarms, and for two out of three (the two smallest going into winter) it was successful. The third one seemed to be getting swarmy, so I pre-emptively split it in a very clumsy way. In the end the original queen survived and carried on in her new hive and the remaining ladies cooked up a new one of their own, so it worked out OK. (And that queen is brood- laying demon, like her mother.)

I was warned against feeding any protein during the long flightless period, so I didn't have any signs of dysentery, and no nosema that I was aware of.

Perhaps they ate more because they were warm enough to break cluster and mosey around in the hive. But since they started with so little and still had some left at the end and only had less than a square foot of 3/4inch thick sugar brick per colony (and still had some of that left over that they just pushed down through the SBB when it finally got warm again) I don't think it caused them to eat too much.

What Lauri (originator of the recipe that I use for the bricks) has commented on about the "demeanor" or mood of the bees fed her bricks was quite apparent to me, too. Before the bricks they were normally defensive, but once they got used to me popping the top and slipping in a re-supply, their attitude was much more relaxed. They just seemed to be in a calm, happy place somehow. (Sounds dopey to write, but it was plain to see.)

I think that as long as the bees have - or you can provide - adequate stores, then the food-supply issue is inconsequential. They just eat what they want and then hang out in the feed rim with their little tummies full. Until it's time to return to the cluster. I had some initial worries that I was "luring" them up to the feeding rim and that they would get caught out of the cluster and freeze to death. That did not happen. A few times on cold mornings I would quickly pull off the insulation and use an infra-red thermometer on the front of the box to see where the cluster was. (I couldn't do it on the sides because I have insulation inside the along the walls.) The cluster moved from place to place. And not straight up as I had been expecting. They seemed able to select a different location, perhaps moving up and down to uneaten sections of their stores when needed. (Though keep in mind that my hives were unusually tall and narrow (only 5 to 7 frames wide) last winter. This winter I will be using 7 or 8 frame configurations as the colonies are bigger so I want to leave more capped honey on them, but also don't want to make the stacks too high, which might create a chimneystack effect..

I wondered about sticking the probe into the cluster, too. But my entrances are 1" in diameter, but closed-over with a piece of cardboard. So I took off the cardboard to peer in and see if I had happened to stick the probe into a ball of bees. Nope, just in the clear air, so what i was getting was the actual air temps. 

(This winter I am stapling a string of mini LED Christmas lights around the interior of my feeding rims. Aside from the beekeeper's joy of being able to peer in and see my girls during the long bee-less winter, the practical prupose is so that I can check the state of the sugar bricks without having to risk opening the top, with all the risks of bees flying out in too-frigid weather. Last winter I was obssessed with daily temps and whether I needed to open and check, or risk running out during an ensuing freeze. This will avoid all that drama, plus I can watch them whenever I please. I have two openings in the feed rim, both usually bee-screened and covered with cardboard. When I turn on the lights I can just slip a little pane of glass over the hole and spy on them as long as I like. Or until my feet and fingers start to freeze!

I am completely sold on quilt boxes. In fact, I wondered if they were so effective in removing moisture that they robbed the bees of a needed source of water. This winter I am going to set a little dish with a sponge in it to hold some water and see if I see the girls drinking there. I'll set it in a corner on top of the frames, in the feeding rim.

Enj.


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## BeeCurious

beemandan said:


> There are some fundamental laws of physics that cannot be ignored. Even if their intent is only to heat the cluster, ultimately that heat is dissipated into the surrounding air. The ability of that air to sink heat is dependent on a variety of things. Ventilation is one obvious thing. Another is the amount of surface area the hive presents to the outside......the greater the surface, the more heat is lost. So...keeping a load of empty boxes on top of your hive increases the amount of heat lost.


:thumbsup:

I agree with the explanation above. 

And here is a chart that some might find interesting.


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## crofter

Brian, the bees are not warm blooded but they do thermoregulate by muscle contractions consuming food and producing heat. More heat loss (colder in the hive) would seem to require the burning of more fuel. On the other hand too warm of atmosphere (where they dont have to burn honey to heat) will result in activity that will elevate metabolism and stores consumption. Seems like a contradiction of physics.

Probably there is somewhere a temperature where their _at rest_ metabolism generates enough heat that they do not need to shiver, yet does not stimulate a higher metabolic rate. The indoor storage boys seem to shoot for somewhere around 40F. Above this temperature the bees become more active and loosen cluster and move around and this raises food demand. Brooding of course would require raising temperature in the brood nest up to something in the neighborhood of 93 F. 

I think perhaps there is not a simple answer to this puzzle. 

I have not insulated to quite the level that some have done and have had good survival. Too small a sample to be definitive though. I am wondering if I can back off a bit but I want to have some physics driven rationale before I do so. 

As it says in my profile, I like to understand what makes it tick!


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## Rader Sidetrack

In reference to the 40 degrees F low point of the graph in post #11, if you read some of _Ian_'s posts, you will see that 40 degrees F is the target temperature for the successful indoor wintering of hives (northern Canada) that _Ian _does.

I gather from Ian's posts that the 40 degrees F is maintained with just heat from the hives themselves (no supplemental building heat) even though the outside temperature is often bitterly cold. A good portion of the time, the vent fans are dumping _excess _heat out of the building so the bees don't get too warm.


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## enjambres

Well, now, there you go!

If a hive is particularly well-insulated (therefore with much less thermal loss) then the bees are effectively living as if in a warmer climate and therefore, need less food, not more.

But I think the insulation efforts need to be very carefully balanced with efforts to maintain good air exchange and adequate ventilation of respirational moisture. 

Enj.


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## mgolden

There is a diminishing return if interior temp gets above 10C/50F. Not overly likely in my winter climate. Found another metabolic chart in attached link. In the link, the metabolic rises quite rapidly above 10C/50F. 

http://www.google.ca/url?url=http:/...gQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNFZ4P1KCXr-YIwuVPbtgypcOIAIyg

Best one can strive when wintering outdoors is to average 40-50F interior temp.

From my experience, the early and large population build can be utilized to easily make a NUC and two hives by splitting. The cost of purchasing sugar and feeding is quite small compared to the value of even a NUC. A package of bees was $168 last spring. A queen was $28.75.

Another way to look at it is what is increased lbs of honey produced by a very strong colony. Sugar was on sale this past weekend at 12kg/26.4lbs for $9.99.


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## Ian

Rader Sidetrack said:


> A good portion of the time, the vent fans are dumping _excess _heat out of the building so the bees don't get too warm.


It still amazes me how much heat kicks off those hives


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## Barry Digman

I think we assume that bees have a cool body temperature since they're insects. For those who are newer and haven't done this, the next time you have the opportunity to capture a swarm try to gather some bare-handed, or with gloves that transfer heat easily. It's an amazing sensation to have a ball of bees in your hand. The first time I did it my reaction was "Wow. These things are hot...". 

It gives you an appreciation for just how warm a mass of bees is. And when you consider you're only holding a handful you begin to understand how much heat a decent sized winter cluster could generate.


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## sqkcrk

0000


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## sqkcrk

A colony of bees is a like a living organism. Imagine a colony of bees as one body. It maintains a core temperature somewhat similar to yours and mine. And it keeps itself warm. It does not heat the interior of the cavity it lives in like we do. There is no woodstove, oil furnace or electrical baseboard heater naturally or normally in a beehive.

If you put temperature probes in a hive between the cluster and the outside wall of the cluster, beside the cluster, you will find that the temperature is the same as it is outside and next to the hive.

If you artificially warm the interior of the hive this will cause the colony to expand, loosen the cluster, consume more honey, resperate more, and give off more moisture. If that moisture is not adequately ventilated out of the hive it will cause problems for the colony and will probably kill the colony.


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## Riverderwent

BeeCurious said:


> And here is a chart that some might find interesting.


Beecurious, good information in the chart. Thank you. My beekeeping mentor explained to me that in our area when the temperature goes up enough for some of the bees to explore outside the hive, the bees are using up stores to fly.


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## BeeCurious

sqkcrk said:


> If you put temperature probes in a hive between the cluster and the outside wall of the cluster, beside the cluster, you will find that the temperature is the same as it is outside and next to the hive.


So.... The bees heat the cluster, and the Canadian warehouse, but no heat is lost to the interior of the hive?:scratch:

Do you believe in magic?


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## Rader Sidetrack

sqkcrk said:


> If you put temperature probes in a hive between the cluster and the outside wall of the cluster, beside the cluster, you will find that the temperature is the same as it is outside and next to the hive.


Well, Mark this chart from a USDA study does not seem to support your assertion. Note that the outside temperature was 7 degrees, and the lowest internal temperature shown is 14 degrees, and that is _outside _the bee cluster.









Photo Credit
_FIGURE 2. - Temperature readings (º F.) and brood and bee location one comb west of center of cluster at outside temperature of 7º.
_

The title of this study is _The Thermology of Wintering Honey Bee Colonies_, and its in the Beesource _Resources _area:

http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/


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## sqkcrk

Well, I guess we know where the hot air is.  I guess relying on experience and memory isn't reliable.


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## Rader Sidetrack

BeeCurious said:


> Do you believe in magic?



*Not *verbosity.


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## Acebird

crofter said:


> Probably there is somewhere a temperature where their _at rest_ metabolism generates enough heat that they do not need to shiver, yet does not stimulate a higher metabolic rate. The indoor storage boys seem to shoot for somewhere around 40F. Above this temperature the bees become more active and loosen cluster and move around and this raises food demand. Brooding of course would require raising temperature in the brood nest up to something in the neighborhood of 93 F.
> 
> I think perhaps there is not a simple answer to this puzzle.


There sure isn't because of all the variables. The graph is in serious error between 50 degrees and up because it doesn't take into account the calories consumed for flight and what heat is expelled outside the hive. Again when flight temperatures are reached a large number of bees are outside the hive burning energy.

Putting hives indoors is another variable. When bees break cluster metabolic rate goes up. if the temperature reaches a point where they have to cool the hive their only way of doing that is to burn more fuel by fanning. This works outside because the outside is an endless sink but it doesn't work inside unless you have something that can expel the moisture and heat generated fast enough.


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## Acebird

BeeCurious said:


> but no heat is lost to the interior of the hive?:scratch:


Nobody is saying that. I think even if you do not have a science background you can figure out that all the heat generated by a cluster is lost to the inside of the hive first. But does that mean the bees need to heat the hive? No. The million dollar question is when is it beneficial to heat the hive and under what conditions? I can only imagine how tricky a question that is to answer when you place a lot of hives indoors. One screw up with "under what conditions" could mean a major loss in a very short period of time.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> The graph is in serious error between 50 degrees and up because it doesn't take into account the calories consumed for flight and what heat is expelled outside the hive.


So you are claiming that bees routinely _FLY _inside their hive? :scratch: 
Where did you get that idea? Any references?

The caption for the chart on post #11 says it is energy consumed by bees "_*IN *outdoor hives_ in winter". If the bees were _leaving _the the hive how could the amount of energy consumed be controlled / measured / calculated?


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## Michael Bush

>Is this fact or myth? Does the air temperature in the hive and surrounding surface affect how much honey they have to consume to maintain core cluster temperature?

The thermodynamics of a bee colony are more complicated than that oversimplification. Anyone who has lived in a tent outside in the winter (and especially if they have lived in various tents) or even worked outside would notice things are more complicated. I'm not trying to heat the inside of a tent with my body heat, but to some degree or another I am. A bigger tent is colder than a smaller tent. Probably partly because of reflected heat. A white tent is warmer than a black tent at night. A black tent is warmer than a white tent when the sun is on it...

Here are some factors in the thermodynamics of a bee colony:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> The graph is in serious error between 50 degrees and up because it doesn't take into account the calories consumed for flight and what heat is expelled outside the hive.


Where would the bees get the "energy" for first Spring flights? From the hive... 

Dewey Caron is retired now but you might contact him to discuss the chart. The chart is from the book "Observation Hives" by Webster and Caron. 

I exchanged a few emails with him several years ago and he might still be using his University of Delaware email address...


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## Ian

Acebird said:


> The million dollar question is when is it beneficial to heat the hive and under what conditions? I can only imagine how tricky a question that is to answer when you place a lot of hives indoors. One screw up with "under what conditions" could mean a major loss in a very short period of time.


Just look at the situation in a simplistic stand point. Forget about what is heated and not. Just look at how much heat, C02 and moisture is expelled from the hive. Look at the most efficient temperature to keep bees at, and then regulate the air flows into the building to control the conditions in the room according to those variables. 
Same with outdoor hives. Wrap those hives which allow the hives to adequately control the variables to the conditions they experience. If your in an area that winters coolish and wet, light wrap with lots of upper ventilation. If you winter in an area like mine where its cold and dry, lots of wrap and somewhat restricted ventilation.


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## Daniel Y

This as the chart provided earlier indicates, is an energy issue. As it shows at its highest power is at most at around 15 watts per lb of bees. How does that energy compared to the requirements to heat even a small air space? Consider that a small space heater that someone would place under their desk just to heat the area they set in runs of 1500 watts. Now that would be extreme for a hive to produce that much heat. So what would a reasonable comparison be? 15 watts is 1/100. Say a hive has 10 lbs of bees. This means it has one tenth of the energy of a small space heater.

Now actually energy comes in several forms. and none of it is ever lost. it only converts to some other form of energy. Heat is one of those forms. And it is measured in BTU's (British Thermal Units) 1 btu is the energy required to raise the temperature of one cc of water 1 degree Celsius at sea level.

The heater in your house woudl be rated at tens of thousands of btu's. So the entire chart is written using a measurement that is not appropriate. How many BTU's are produced would be more appropriate. 

Now it is true that no energy produced by the bees is lost. it is in fact dissipated. From there it converts to other forms of energy. The question is not where the heat goes. it is a question of what it is capable of doing in the process. The energy produced by a cluster of bees is so low there is no possability of it actually warming air to any considerable degree. The energy required to heat air is far greater than what is needed to warm a body. Doing so would be a gross waste of energy. The bees don't need the air warm they only need themselves warm. and that is all they keep warm.

As one comment earlier mentioned. the heat is in the cluster where it is needed when the bees are clustered. when they break that cluster the heat is released. I also suspect that rise in temperature is fleeting at best.

As for how many colories bees need to produce the energy necessary. Consider for a moment that any bee going into winter does so with all the calories needed already consumed. I say honey stores in mid winter are more likely the insulation bees need. not the energy they will need to generate the heat required.

I have also observed that bees consume little to no honey during the winter.


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## mgolden

The metabolic curve in attached must take into account increased consumption due to flying. More realistic. I would paste a picture if I knew how!

http://www.google.ca/url?url=http:/...gQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNFZ4P1KCXr-YIwuVPbtgypcOIAIyg


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## BeeCurious

> Consider for a moment that any bee going into winter does so with all the calories needed already consumed. I say honey stores in mid winter are more likely the insulation bees need. not the energy they will need to generate the heat required.


Really? :scratch:


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## Barry Digman

Daniel Y said:


> As for how many colories bees need to produce the energy necessary. Consider for a moment that any bee going into winter does so with all the calories needed already consumed. I say honey stores in mid winter are more likely the insulation bees need. not the energy they will need to generate the heat required.
> 
> I have also observed that bees consume little to no honey during the winter.


Didn't see that coming. 

It seems to contradict conventional wisdom and science that says that bees store honey in order to feed themselves when there is no forage available.


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## Rader Sidetrack

mgolden said:


> More realistic. I would paste a picture if I knew how!


The content at your link is in the form of a PDF. Its not easy to post inline an image from a PDF. The only way I know that (assuming you can't _edit _the PDF) is to do a screen capture from the PDF displayed on your system, save that to an image file, then upload that JPG (or PNG, GIF etc). If it was just one image in your PDF, I might do just that, but since there are multiple relevant images, those _interested in *learning* something about internal hive temperatures_ should just click the link and see for themselves.  

The link below is the same document as in post #32, but a _direct _link instead: http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/winteringpdf.pdf


.


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## Ian

Too much over thinking of the wintering process. The expulsion of heat, C02, and moisture are the variables needed to consider. All we are doing as beekeepers is trying to create a better wintering environment. Done with wrap, ventilation, some with both and some controlling all variables indoors. 
KISS, keep it simple stranger
First thing to do is figure out all the variables before any winter prep is done.


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## Dave Burrup

Ian do you monitor CO2 levels?


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## Ian

Dave Burrup said:


> Ian do you monitor CO2 levels?



Right now I work off the guidelines developed local beekeeping industry. General recommendations. I'm incorporating devices to further measure the indoor conditions this winter.


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## crofter

Michael Bush; that is an excellent compendium of the factors in play in a winter hive.

DanielY; Fact check your definition of a Btu. Also honey is rather a poor insulator! High thermal mass, yes but no greater per pound than water.

Air has only about a thousandth the weight of bees and comb per unit volume so it will not be hard to heat. Convection though allows it to carry off quite a bit of heat. The heating of the air surrounding the bee is not deliberate, it is unavoidable though.


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## Acebird

I tried to estimate how many btu's are in 100 pounds of honey and I am coming up with about 150. That seems too low. What am I missing?


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## Rader Sidetrack

The right formula! :lpf:


Why don't you '_show your work_', Ace, and we'll critique it for you ... :lookout:


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## dynemd

I get 544 btu's
100 lbs equal 45 kilos
Honey 64 calories per 21 grams
1 calorie equals 0.00396566683 btus, or 1 btu equals 252 calories


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## Daniel Y

Ian said:


> Too much over thinking of the wintering process. The expulsion of heat, C02, and moisture are the variables needed to consider. All we are doing as beekeepers is trying to create a better wintering environment.


True, But what determines measures are better. If a cluster is not heating the hive. But in fact that heat comes from solar gain. are you not making the situation worse with insulation?

As for the energy required to get through winter already being in the bee. Bears do it. Plenty of other animals do it. and bees are not foraging in the winter.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Over winter hibernation, bears use up fat stored in their bodies. Honeybees, in the winter when they can't forage outside the hive, use up carbohydrates [honey or sugar etc] that they have stored in the combs in the hive.

If bees don't have adequate sugar/honey available in the combs to get through the winter dearth, the colony will perish. Do you _really _need me to provide references for this? :scratch:


Also, a BTU is the amount of energy needed to cool or heat one *pound *of water by one degree Fahrenheit, *not * one "cc" [cubic centimeter] of water as you earlier claimed.


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## BeeCurious

Good grief!


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## jim lyon

Bees get listless after 24 hours without feed and will die within about 48 hours......I've starved enough of them through the years to know. Probably slightly longer in the winter when they are less active and aren't feeding larvae. Swarming hives that gorge themselves before leaving the hive are a special situation.


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## Acebird

dynemd said:


> I get 544 btu's
> 100 lbs equal 45 kilos
> Honey 64 calories per 21 grams
> 1 calorie equals 0.00396566683 btus, or 1 btu equals 252 calories


You got it. I misread this page
http://convert-to.com/246/honey-amounts-converter.html
It still doesn't seem like a lot of heat from 100 pounds of honey.


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## Ian

Daniel Y said:


> True, But what determines measures are better. If a cluster is not heating the hive. But in fact that heat comes from solar gain. are you not making the situation worse with insulation?


I keep hearing that bees don't heat the hive. Of course they do, its done as an indirect result of creating heat within the cluster. That heat is what we utilize within the wraps to expel moisture through convection air currents through the upper entrance. 
Up here we pack our wraps tight, with lots of insulation and restricted entrances and restricted upper entrances. More heat is retained in our packs. Your right, solar gain might not be utilized deep into that cluster mid Feb, but those clusters are holding looser and drier on those -25 days than they would be without the wrap.


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## Daniel Y

jim lyon said:


> Bees get listless after 24 hours without feed and will die within about 48 hours...... Swarming hives that gorge themselves before leaving the hive are a special situation.


I would need to see that for myself. It is not consistent with what I have seen. I have watched bees nowhere near honey for 6 weeks do just fine.

As for the gorging. So bees could not possibly do this going into winter also? How long would that engorgement last them if they did not find a hive location draw comb and store it?


----------



## jim lyon

Daniel Y said:


> I would need to see that for myself. It is not consistent with what I have seen. I have watched bees nowhere near honey for 6 weeks do just fine.
> 
> As for the gorging. So bees could not possibly do this going into winter also? How long would that engorgement last them if they did not find a hive location draw comb and store it?


I don't think gorging is consistent with what bees do in winter. In swarming they need to gorge to have the ability to survive and build comb to start a new home, plus one of the primary triggers for swarming is an active honeyflow when the brood nest is getting back filled. No wax builders in a wintering hive. 
Bees living six weeks without feed? Hmmmmm.


----------



## Acebird

Daniel Y said:


> How long would that engorgement last them if they did not find a hive location draw comb and store it?


I think a swarm has about 3 days to find a home and start getting to work.


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## jim lyon

jim lyon said:


> Bees living six weeks without feed? Hmmmmm.


Perhaps someone (besides myself) familiar with handling package bees could chime in? Why the heck have you guys been wasting time and money sticking feed cans in bees that will be I stalled within 3 to 4 days?


----------



## Daniel Y

Acebird said:


> I think a swarm has about 3 days to find a home and start getting to work.


And yet it not only is enough to sustain them for that three days that they are active. flying building. it is enough to build comb. feed brood etc. How long could it be expected to last for dormant wintering bees that are doing none of that. Seems like a little bit goes a long way.

Jim you are not talking about dormant wintering bees now are you. If you want to claim that gorging could sustain bees for 6 weeks that are active you go right ahead. Btu then how do you artificially get the bees to gorge adequately simply because you want to ship them. This is a great exampel of how an argument is made only after changing nearly every detail of the situation. it results in completely rational sounding but just as equally worthless comments. If you fail to see the switch. Do you have any insight on bees that are dormant in the winter and their energy needs?


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## Rader Sidetrack

I _smiled _when Jim quoted himself [instead of the original comment], perhaps in an effort to be '_gentle_'. 

Right about now I suspect Jim is wishing he had quoted the original post instead!


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## Barry

This one has promise for the "best of 2014"!


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## Dave Burrup

Daniel if bees do not feed and live off of energy stored in their bodies, why do they leave empty comb behind them as the cluster moves?

We may be the only creature on earth that heats the space around us. As far as I can think all others grow coats, fat, or a combination of to retain the heat generated in their bodies. The inadvertent heat loss does heat the area around the organism, if the dissipation rate into the environment is less than the loss rate from the organisms body. We wrap our hives, and put insulation above them to slow this dissipation rate. This gives the bees more time to move around and move onto new food stores. I do not believe that the wraps have much effect during the coldest times, but I see the greatest benefit from the wraps in the late winter and early spring when the hives are brooding up. The black wraps do provide enough solar gain for the bees to crawl out warm up and perform a brief cleansing flight. Sometimes this flight is only inches from the wrap. We leave our wraps on until near the end of April, and rarely see any chilled brood. The one year I removed the wraps in March we had several episodes of brood chill. 
Dave


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## Daniel Y

Well Dave, That actually requires another detail of my far fetched ideas. Bees do not have honey where they cluster. they have empty comb. that is becasue they fill that comb with bees. That is why you find dead hives with combs that have bees head first in the cells. not becasue they where eating. but becasue that is how they cluster. they eliminate air spaces to cluster. and empty cells create air spaces. A cluster will shift and reshape itself in order to take full advantage of heat when available. They do not move for a need for food. Maybe in a harsh winter environment where there ability to store energy is exceeded by energy need. I don't have a harsh winter environment here so cannot say how bees act in prolonged low temperatures.

My primary concern with wrapping hives is this. Are you saving more energy than you would gain? Insulation not only helps keep the heat in which my thinking says does not exist anyway. but you are insulating from the heat outside as well such as sun light. It may be a save a penny to loose a dollar situation. I would think it may be better to insulate all sides of a hive except the southerly side. leave that exposed to the sun so the hive gains from that exposure. Covering in black paper would help in that gain.


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## cryptobrian

Daniel Y said:


> ... that is becasue they fill that comb with bees. .


This is awesome. I am imagining the next level of ingenuity ... a specially designed frame of comb where the cells are actually miniature sleeping bags to keep the little bees warm and cozy!


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## Barry

Daniel Y said:


> so cannot say how bees act in prolonged low temperatures.


Do you not have a copy of the most basic of beekeeping books that any serious beekeeper should have?

_The Hive and the Honey Bee:_



> The contraction or expansion of the cluster, therefore, is the principal mechanism used by bees to sustain a favorable environment. This action will function _as long as the cluster maintains firm contact with its food reserves.
> 
> _There is a practical limit to which cluster contraction can occur. When this point is reached, continued or increased temperature stress overwhelms the heat-generating capacity of the bees _because they lose contact with their food reserves._ The internal and external cluster temperatures drop and the cluster perishes.


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## Dave Burrup

Daniel the bees in the center of the cluster are over brood or empty comb but the bees are on the honey at the margins of the cluster. Dead bees head first in the cells are from starvation.
Our greatest winter loss occurs when we have had milder temperatures and the cluster loosens up covering more area of the combs. This is followed by colder periods causing the bee cluster to contract. The bees move off of the honey, and if they are at the top of the frames with several days of, too cold to move sideways, they starve to death. Even with extreme cold if there is food above them the cluster can move up to new stores.


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## jim lyon

Daniel Y said:


> Do you have any insight on bees that are dormant in the winter and their energy needs?


Oh sure, I've starved plenty of those as well. My experience with wintering bees is pretty extensive. I like to tell people I have a lot of experience in how NOT to do things, now if I can just figure out how you are supposed to do things. Listen Daniel, I dont post this out of spite or to show you up, I post this because there are lots of "newbees" out there that read these posts. BEES DONT LIVE 6 WEEKS WITHOUT FEED!!!!! They do not do it here or there, they do not do it anywhere (or anytime). If you dont believe me then shake some bees out onto dry comb and see how they fare.


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## jmgi

Dave, the bees going into the cells headfirst is how they normally winter, the cluster condenses into a tight area between the combs and in them. Dead headfirst is surely a sign of starvation, but they don't go headfirst into the cells just to die, I don't know if that is what you were trying to say.


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## Barry Digman

There are perhaps thousands of references on overwintering bees out there. Here is one, from the Resources section of Beesource itself. It's actual science, backed up with citations, graphs, and "twenty-seven 8x10 color glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explainin' what each one was to be used as evidence" that bees must have proper stores of honey in order to survive.

http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/overwintering-of-honey-bee-colonies/


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## Barry Digman

mgolden said:


> The metabolic curve in attached must take into account increased consumption due to flying. More realistic. I would paste a picture if I knew how!
> 
> http://www.google.ca/url?url=http:/...gQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNFZ4P1KCXr-YIwuVPbtgypcOIAIyg



Here's the graph:


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## Ian

jim lyon said:


> BEES DONT LIVE 6 WEEKS WITHOUT FEED!!!!! They do not do it here or there, they do not do it anywhere (or anytime).


ha ha ha, I laughed out loud at the lunch room table... nobody else got it, lol


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## Ian

Dave Burrup said:


> I do not believe that the wraps have much effect during the coldest times, but I see the greatest benefit from the wraps in the late winter and early spring when the hives are brooding up.


The best is when the yard is nicely covered with snow, just showing the tops for ventilation and flight access. Snug like a bug in the rug.


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## Vance G

The bees ventilate rather well when the snow is three feet deepover the colonies and they are in their ice cave about the size of a 55 gallon drum. I used to winter in 24 hives back to back and the inside of the cave was brown when it caved in an you could see. Amazing how much snow is melted by those bees only heating the cluster. I need to put a thermometer inside my wrapped hives and get an idea of the facts instead of the liturgy.


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## mgolden

Daniel Y said:


> .
> 
> I would think it may be better to insulate all sides of a hive except the southerly side. leave that exposed to the sun so the hive gains from that exposure. Covering in black paper would help in that gain.


Didn't work well at all for me. On a sunny but 32F day, the interior gets warm and bees go on one way cleansing flights! Lot of dead bees on top of the snow.

I use 2 inch on sides and back and 1/2 on front under black building paper.


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## crofter

How did some of these apparently physically unsupportable ideas take root and live so long? Could it be confusion with moisture management issues which often in conflict with heat retention?


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## Ian

crofter said:


> Could it be confusion with moisture management issues which often in conflict with heat retention?


remove the moisture with the heat


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## Adrian Quiney WI

A related question I am curious about. What is the smallest cluster that can reliably be overwintered in my region? In the winter that wasn't (2012) I had a cluster of bees about the size of a teacup that survived, and then in the spring when boosted by a frame of emerging brood grew big enough to contribute to the crop. 
I can overwinter 5 over 5 frame nucs. I am curious about single 5 frame nucs and am entering winter with a few of those, and then I wonder if a 3 over 3 would be doable? Providing a beekeeper has bees to spare these are interesting things to experiment with, especially if you want to stay off the package treadmill.


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## crofter

Ian said:


> remove the moisture with the heat


I agree; that is what I do, up through the top via the shavings quilt and a very small top entrance. But how or why did the other methods get entrenched?


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## jim lyon

Vance G said:


> The bees ventilate rather well when the snow is three feet deepover the colonies and they are in their ice cave about the size of a 55 gallon drum. I used to winter in 24 hives back to back and the inside of the cave was brown when it caved in an you could see. Amazing how much snow is melted by those bees only heating the cluster. I need to put a thermometer inside my wrapped hives and get an idea of the facts instead of the liturgy.


We used to see the same thing when wintering bees in central Minnesota, we packed them side by side in twos with the old "buffalo board" sheeting for a lid topped by a layer of straw, then a wrap with the summer lids placed on top of them. We would dig them out in late February to take inventory and feed some dry sugar as needed. The clusters would almost always move towards the wall next to the neighboring hive. We had some yards where we had to use a probe to try to find those brown "caverns" though there would usually be some sort of little chimney hole if you looked closely. They had their own little micro climate under the snow.


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## Ian

crofter said:


> But how or why did the other methods get entrenched?


I am not quite following you. Please elaborate. 

I think most of the variations on prepping for winter is simply beekeepers recognizing all the factors, and controlling them which best suits their environment. Here in Manitoba, we get cold, cold and no break from cold. It suits indoor wintering perfectly, probably best suited for indoor wintering. Guys who winter outdoors will pack heavy with limited ventilation to retain heat but still remove moisture. Where as in Ontario, you guys usually get a milder winter than us but cold and extremely wet. Outdoor wintering is best suited with a wrap focused on moisture removal as you describe.


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## Acebird

Ian said:


> I think most of the variations on prepping for winter is simply beekeepers recognizing all the factors, and controlling them which best suits their environment. Here in Manitoba, we get cold, cold and no break from cold. It suits indoor wintering perfectly, probably best suited for indoor wintering. Guys who winter outdoors will pack heavy with limited ventilation to retain heat but still remove moisture. Where as in Ontario, you guys usually get a milder winter than us but cold and extremely wet. Outdoor wintering is best suited with a wrap focused on moisture removal as you describe.


That is why advice about wintering hives is best shared with your neighbor not across the continent. Bees heat the cluster, no question about it. The conditions have to be right for the heat loss from the cluster to heat the hive and with all the variables that can happen it could be an advantage or a disadvantage. Local practices are the only answer to that scenario.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Bees heat the cluster, no question about it. The conditions have to be right[HIGHLIGHT] for the heat loss from the cluster to heat the hive[/HIGHLIGHT] and with all the variables that can happen it could be an advantage or a disadvantage.


Of course the cluster heat _also _heats the "hive"!

If the cluster is is generating heat, then there will be heat radiating from the cluster. That heat will warm the interior of the hive to some degree (presuming that the hive is not simply just 'open-air' combs). There is simply no alternative to the hive itself being warmed - heat escaping from the cluster does not just _magically disappear_. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics

Certainly there are variables as to _how much_ the hive itself will be warmed by that heat.


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## Daniel Y

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Of course the cluster heat _also _heats the "hive"!
> 
> If the cluster is is generating heat, then there will be heat radiating from the cluster. That heat will warm the interior of the hive to some degree (presuming that the hive is not simply just 'open-air' combs). There is simply no alternative to the hive itself being warmed - heat escaping from the cluster does not just _magically disappear_.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics
> 
> Certainly there are variables as to _how much_ the hive itself will be warmed by that heat.


At some point the heat from the cluster will be released. This does not mean the hive gets heated. That is like saying that the water that fills a cup makes a difference when poured into a tub. did the water get poured int? Yes is there now water in the tub? Yes. does it make a hill of beans worth of difference? The difference is. How much heat how much energy is needed to heat a cluster of bees. tightly packed. insulating themselves. keeping that heat to themselves. Or how much energy would be required to heat the entire hive?

Take a heating pad. place it against your skin and see how long it takes to feel warm. even hot. now place that pad next you at your chair. let me know when it has warmed up the room.


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## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> heat escaping from the cluster does not just _magically disappear_.


Sure it does. Do you see it? If the heat loss from the cluster is less than the heat loss of the hive it will not result is a temperature rise in the hive.


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## Rader Sidetrack

> Take a heating pad ....

As I stated in post #76, there are "_variables_".  

In DY's example, what is the wattage of the heating pad, [i.e., how big is the cluster]? How well is the "room" [hive] insulated? What is the temperature outdoors? How many doors/windows [hive entrances] does the room have? What is the aggregate size of those doors/windows [hive entrances/vents]? Do I need to go on ... :s 

Lots of _variables_! :lpf:


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## Ian

I think of it more like a radiant heater kicking off about 20W of heat energy. Which ever way you look at it, that energy is being kicked off. Hold that heater in a cooler wrapped tight, its going to get hot inside because of no air exchange. Open a vent hole and allow the natural convection of air to circulate the air and it removes heat energy along with C02 and moisture.

I totally agree with you Frank!


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## crofter

Ian said:


> I am not quite following you. Please elaborate.
> 
> I <Snip>
> 
> think most of the variations on prepping for winter is simply beekeepers recognizing all the factors, and controlling them which best suits their environment..


What I am getting at is how did the apparent myth come about that the cluster stays warm independantly of the hive so any insulating is a waste of time; a la, "they only heat the cluster not the hive". I am supposing that some people insulated without considering moisture escape, had no increase in survivability, and declared insulation ineffective". Most of beekeeping lore on this continent probably originates from the south.

I am in the insulation camp as our weather swings down from the north and is not at all like the most of southern ontario. I have seen a solid month when daytime highs never went above 20 below F.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> If the heat loss from the cluster is less than the heat loss of the hive it will not result is a temperature rise in the hive.


OK, Ace, if the "hive" is at ambient temperature, how can it be possible that there is _*ANY *_"heat loss"? :scratch:


In order for the "hive" to "lose heat", surely it must be _*warmer *_than ambient temperature to begin with!!! :lpf: 



:ws:


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## Michael Bush

I was putting 3/4" plywood inside a tin shed that has three walls. The tin goes below the dirt already so there is no draft to speak of. It was a bitter cold day. As we added sheets of 3/4" plywood the we were noticeably warmer. Everyone working on the project commented on it. I'm quite certain the temperature in the shed did not change much, but our heat loss did. I have experienced similar things hundreds of times building houses when it was -10 F or so. A very noticeable difference that does not seem likely to change the temperature much since it is open to the air. I think all the measurements and such are just misleading.

The temperature in my house is pretty close to the same with the door open or closed but the furnace runs a lot more and the draft feels pretty cold and the fuel bill goes up... a system where the bees are generating heat and outside air is coming in and the box provides some but not a lot of insulation and the honey provides some thermal flywheel, is much more complicated than you think...


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## Daniel Y

The cluster itself does stay warm pretty much independently. Look at the temperatures I think Graham posted the chart of. 3 degrees outside. in the 40's at the least inside the hive. Btu bees are not the only thing that will warm that hive. it setting in the sun will warm it also. SO how much of that temperature difference is outside heat sources. How long will a hive hold that heat once the heat source is removed (the sun goes down).

The core of the cluster is 90 degrees or more. that is the heat bees generate. That is the cluster keepign itself warm. because 40 degrees is not warm enough for the entire cluster.

What you really need to look at is what happens right where cluster meets air. What change is seen there. For the most part you see a cluster very warm at the core. slowly cooling to it's outer edges until the surface of the cluster is almost the same temperature of the hive. No heat loss. 

What I see is bees that generate heat at extremely low power output. And then they are very very good at keeping that heat in their cluster. That the hive is warmer than the outside air is no surprise. nearly anything is warmer than outside air.


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## barberberryfarm

This is a great thread!!!


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## crofter

If the center of the cluster is ~90F. and the outside of it ~45 that clearly shows heat loss. Barring the existence of a perfect insulator it could be no other way. We can safely assume that the outside of the cluster must not go below 45 F. or the bees lose muscle control and fall to the floor. That puts the outside temp of the cluster at 45f. or higher. Any time the temperature of the air in the hive is lower than this temperature, heat will transfer away by convection. Any time the margin of the frames outside the cluster are below this temperature heat will flow into them by conduction. Any time the hive walls are below this temperature heat from the cluster will be lost via radiation. 

Heat transfer from one body to another, via any of the means, conduction, convection or radiation, is proportional to the temperature differential between the respective bodies.

Could someone that is current on heat exchange theory explain the significance of the energy in the water vapor and whether more or less of that energy could be affected by our method of conveying it out of the hive. (Analogy; I am in the process of installing a high efficiency gas furnace that condenses the water vapor and recovers the latent heat.) My mind toys with the notion that the shavings quilt on top of the hive might have a small recovery effect compared to just dumping the vapor directly out an opening.


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## peterloringborst

crofter said:


> If the center of the cluster is ~90F. and the outside of it ~45 that clearly shows heat loss. Barring the existence of a perfect insulator it could be no other way. We can safely assume that the outside of the cluster must not go below 45 F. or the bees lose muscle control and fall to the floor.


Right about the heat leaving the cluster, this is heat loss or waste heat. The system is not 100% efficient, like heat going up a chimney. On the other hand, some heat has to leak out to the outer bees to keep them above 45 F like you say. However, they don't fall when they die. Most of us have seen a cluster that died, they are all tightly packed together. 

I have a theory that one cause of winter mortality may be that the inner group runs out of honey but the outer shell becomes too cold to move. The whole cluster starves even though there is honey near by,


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## crofter

Peter, I think that when we examine a cluster that has gone into failure mode we may see conditions that we would not if it survived. In terminal stages no doubt the bees that have failed to circulate will be wedged between frames rather than falling to the floor. You may be right that they physically impede the cluster moving onto replacement honey comb. I think that the key is they have exhausted the honey they are on and cannot move to fresh source.

Yes, heat will flow towards the cluster margins whether on the bodies of the circulating bees or in the air that must be circulated to get rid of the carbon dioxide and bring in oxygen.


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## hilreal

I still think the factor that many are leaving out is the fact of ventilation.....making sure that warm, moist air is expelled from the hive through a hole near the top of the hive, thus leaving the interior of the hive cold, except for the cluster. Think of it like this, you have a fireplace burning in your living room downstairs but you leave the bedroom windows open so that the smell from the fireplace can escape. How warm is your bedroom likely to be?


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## crofter

Ventilation is a big part of the puzzle. I think there is an optimum amount and both over and under are problems. I think different methods can do the job but some may lose far more heat in the process. Over ventilation certainly will lose heat unnecessarily. If you can condense the moisture to a liguid within the hives heat envelope, then wick it to a point outside the hive to be evaporated by outside air, you could satisfy moisture removal with virtually no air exchange (you still need some air exchange for CO2 and Oxygen exchange though).

I think a shavings pillow or quilt is more than just insulation!


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## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> In order for the "hive" to "lose heat", surely it must be _*warmer *_than ambient temperature to begin with!!! :lpf:


How does radiant energy pass through air without raising its temperature?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> How does radiant energy pass through air without raising its temperature?


Ace, in the context that I was using the word "_ambient_", it is a reference to the *outside *temperature, meaning _outside the hive_.

My point was that if the hive [body] is to "lose heat", it can only do so if it is _warmer _than the outside air.



There is more going on in heat transfer inside a hive that _just _"radiant energy". See _crofter_'s post #86 for some of the other factors.


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## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> My point was that if the hive [body] is to "lose heat", it can only do so if it is _warmer _than the outside air.


That is completely untrue. A heat pump can take heat from a colder space and move it to a warmer space. The bees do this all the time in the summer by fanning and evaporation of water. Water loses heat at 32 degrees without getting any colder before it freezes it also gains heat without an increase in temperature before it turns to steam. This is just getting technical and offers nothing to the main discussion.

The people in Canada need to insulate their hives. The people in NC that are not at high elevation do not. The people who are in between these locations may see a benefit for insulation or may not. There are too many variables to make a statement either way that could be proven.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Heat Pump?? :scratch: Really? :s *Heat Pump*?? 


:ws:

What does a _heat pump_ have to do with a hive losing heat to the air outside a _bee hive_? :lpf:


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## crofter

Ace, you are trying to use the term heat and the term energy interchangeably. In the heat pump analogy you are using an interim refrigerant liquid that must be colder than the source of the heat that flows into it. You can capture _energy_ by making something colder but heat directly will only flow into an object that is colder. To make the system work that you describe needs the imput of an external source like the sun or electricity. Even the bees fanning is an external energy source powered by nectar or honey. The laws of thermodynamics are not subject to modification by Acebird. He is free to misconstrue them but they remain unchanged.

I think the smart money is on Rader


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## Acebird

crofter said:


> Even the bees fanning is an external energy source powered by nectar or honey.


 That is my point heat can flow from cooler to warmer if there is another energy source pushing it. Rader is trying to equate heat to temperature and it is not.



> but heat directly will only flow into an object that is colder.


And again this statement is wrong. Generally it is true but in the case of water changing state heat is taken on or given up without a change in temperature. I am sure there are other instances where this happens in nature.


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## Daniel Y

Acebird said:


> That is completely untrue. A heat pump can take heat from a colder space and move it to a warmer space. The bees do this all the time in the summer by fanning and evaporation of water. Water loses heat at 32 degrees without getting any colder before it freezes it also gains heat without an increase in temperature before it turns to steam. This is just getting technical and offers nothing to the main discussion.
> 
> The people in Canada need to insulate their hives. The people in NC that are not at high elevation do not. The people who are in between these locations may see a benefit for insulation or may not. There are too many variables to make a statement either way that could be proven.




Ace you have introduced gasses pressure and expansion and a bunch of other things that have no application. allow a gas to expand it absorbs heat. move it somewhere else and compress it it gives that heat up. Not applicable to what is happening in a hive.

It is true that a body warmer body will loose heat to a colder body. only if that heat can move. In what ways are bees in a cluster preventing that movement?


----------



## crofter

Acebird said:


> That is completely untrue. A heat pump can take heat from a colder space and move it to a warmer space. The bees do this all the time in the summer by fanning and evaporation of water. Water loses heat at 32 degrees without getting any colder before it freezes it also gains heat without an increase in temperature before it turns to steam. This is just getting technical and offers nothing to the main discussion.
> 
> The people in Canada need to insulate their hives. The people in NC that are not at high elevation do not. The people who are in between these locations may see a benefit for insulation or may not. There are too many variables to make a statement either way that could be proven.


A solid that does not experience change of state is not affected by the phenomenon of latent heat of phase change. By radiation to a colder object it is possible for something to be sightly colder than its surrounding air but that also does not apply to conditions that surround a hive. I doubt anyone is concerned about what will happen if you put a bee hive in a tank of water at 32F.

Get Real!


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## mathesonequip

some basic thermodynamics, a fancy name for heat transfer. there is no such thing as cold, cold is less heat. heat [energy] flows from a higher place toward a lower place of heat always. the flow transfer rate depends on insulation. the flow rate depends also on movement of air or liquid over the transfer area. that is why we have wind-chill, more air movement equals faster heat transfer.... when matter changes state a lot of energy is transferred, in bee terms when liquid moisture in the hive is changed to vapor a lot of energy is absorbed by the change liquid to vapor, this energy is absorbed from the surroundings, this is called the refrigeration effect. if bees are wet they get cold [less heat] as they dry out.... so we have a cluster of bees trying to keep the queen alive. as it gets colder the cluster gets tighter, this slows down heat loss. some heat is also always transferred this raises the temperature of the hive some. the bees are not trying to heat the hive they are trying to regulate cluster temperature. hive insulation and/or a windbreak causes slower heat loss. no liquid water [or less] greatly lowers heat loss. the higher the temperature the more moisture air can hold. if you put more moisture ,over the dew point, in the air it rains, if the air is saturated [dew point] and the temperature drops it rains. bees breathe and this moisture is in the air, the air can only hold so much depending on temperature, drops of moisture [or ice] form as the bees contact this they loose heat...the heat transfer and moisture change of state effect are really 2 different things happening at once.... I hope most of you can follow this.


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## Daniel Y

This might be something that more people have had experience with that is an exampel of what ace is talking about. How many people have actually seen or had a propane bottle freeze on them? I have seen it fairly often when it comes to propane BBQ grills.

Propane in a bottle is under pressure. this is what keeps it liquid. It is also a liquid that has a very low boiling point. way below freezing. So any time you release that pressure propane boils basically turns to gas (Steam) and will burn. As the pressure in the tank decreases more and more liquid boils. this requires additional heat. Or that absorbing of heat I described earlier. Where is that heat coming from? it is gettign the heat form the metal tank. it is absorbing heat through that metal and when the metal can no longer keep up it will actually freeze. And guess what the gas inside the tank is doing. it is still getting heat right from that ice. You will eventually reach a point there simply is not enough heat available to the liquid and the process will stop. But this is an exampel of how an expanding gas will take heat from something even much much colder than itself. and yes ice has heat in it.


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## mathesonequip

Daniel is giving a good example of heat absorbetion [refridgeration effect] for a liquid changing to a vapor, heat is absorbed from the surrounding area as the liquid changes to vapor.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Rader is trying to equate heat to temperature and it is not.


Ace, I never suggested such a thing. 


I invite you to post a quote from me if you _really _believe that is what I said. Meanwhile, I am enjoying other member's responses to your .... lack of understanding of _basic science_.  :waiting:


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## rweaver7777

mathesonequip said:


> Daniel is giving a good example of heat absorbetion [refridgeration effect] for a liquid changing to a vapor, heat is absorbed from the surrounding area as the liquid changes to vapor.


Yes, that's a good example of phase transition from liquid to gas. But that isn't what is happening in a hive. No phase changes are occurring.


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## mathesonequip

rweaver.. yes this does happen in a hive as liquid water is vaporized. for the winter question, as wet bees dry out they get real cold. cold air can not hold as much water vapor. for the summer it occurs as liquid nectar is reduced in moisture, the hive cools. unlike daniels example pressure is not a factor here but air temperature is.. the vaporization point is always controlled by temperature and pressure, in our enviorment pressure is fairly constant or close enough to constant that it is not a variable to worry about. there is a slight drop in boiling point as elevation increases [air pressure drops].


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## rweaver7777

mathesonequip said:


> rweaver.. yes this does happen in a hive as liquid water is vaporized. for the winter question, as wet bees dry out they get real cold. for the summer it occurs as liquid nectar is reduced in moisture, the hive cools. unlike daniels example pressure is not a factor but air temperature is..


How do your bees get wet?


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## mathesonequip

rweaver.. from condenasation in the hive . water drips off of the top onto the bees. the condensation happens as moist air cools at the top of the hive. or if outside moisture melts into or gets into the hive.


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## jim lyon

mathesonequip said:


> rweaver.. from condenasation in the hive . water drips off of the top onto the bees. the condensation happens as moist air cools at the top of the hive. or if outside moisture melts into or gets into the hive.


It is important to have the hive sloped ahead enough so that when moisture condenses under the lid it will slide downhill before dripping off away from the cluster. I loved the old "buffalo board" (so did mice) as it would absorb a bit of moisture and wouldnt drip nearly as readily as wood especially wood that has been sealed.


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## rweaver7777

mathesonequip said:


> rweaver.. from condenasation in the hive . water drips off of the top onto the bees. the condensation happens as moist air cools at the top of the hive. or if outside moisture melts into or gets into the hive.


Is your climate such that you cannot prevent condensation with adequate ventilation?


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## mathesonequip

moisture and ventilation are a problem in many places.


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## crofter

About the tilted roof. If the top surface of the hive is cold and slick the vapor will condense to liquid and drip; if cold enough it will deposit as a fur of hoar frost and then melt to liguid during warm up times, and then drip. Sloping the roof sufficiently may allow the droplets to run to the front of the hive. 

If the upper surface of the hive is a warm, porous insulated surface, the vapor will not immediately condense but will penetrate till it reaches material at the dew point temperature. At that point it will wick upwards and be absorbed by the cold dryer outside air. There must be quite large vents above the shavings quilt. _Voila!_, no drips inside, at least not on the roof. Some condensation on the walls is beneficial to the bees.


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## Acebird

crofter said:


> At that point it will wick upwards and be absorbed by the cold dryer outside air.


What is that water going to vapor without boiling? Snow going to vapor without going to water first? Maybe evaporation...


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## crofter

Yes.

Likely progression being vapor to liquid, to solid crystals, then sublimation thence to vapor. Sometimes lifting the cover off the quilt box shows hoar frost depending on temperature. The bottom side of the quilt feels dry to the touch.


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## mathesonequip

when something is wet and it dries out the water has gone to vapor without boiling... when ice dries out and goes to vapor this is called freeze drying [freezer burn if the moisture comes out of a steak], the more technical name of the process is sublimation this can happen directly it does not have go to water first.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> What is that water going to vapor without boiling? Snow going to vapor without going to water first? Maybe evaporation...


As those above have noted, the process of ice converting to a vapor, without going through a liquid phase, is called sublimation (or sublime). See the link for more details ...


> Sublimation is the transition of a substance directly from the solid to the gas phase without passing through an intermediate liquid phase.
> ...
> ...
> [HIGHLIGHT]Snow and ice sublime[/HIGHLIGHT], although more slowly, at temperatures below the freezing/melting point temperature line at 0 °C for most pressures; see line below triple point. In freeze-drying, the material to be dehydrated is frozen and its water is allowed to sublime under reduced pressure or vacuum. The loss of snow from a snowfield during a cold spell is often caused by sunshine acting directly on the upper layers of the snow.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_(phase_transition)


In a practical application, some "iron-on" transfers, onto a Tee shirt for instance, utilize the process of sublimation of solid dyes from a carrier sheet into the cotton fabric of the shirt.


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## Daniel Y

Acebird said:


> What is that water going to vapor without boiling? Snow going to vapor without going to water first? Maybe evaporation...


Evaporation has a simular effect as a gas (steam in the case of water) has when it expands. Not exaclty the same but it will have a cooling effect.

As for how the bees get wet. other than the condensation already mentioned. the beesproduce a certain amount of moisture themselves through respiration. Other materials in the hive also have mositure in them. The very air entering a hive has moisture in it. It's not like you go dump a month pitcher of water in the hive and then wonder why you have problems. Have you ever had a glass of ice tea start sweating on a hot day? where did that moisture come from?


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## crofter

Bees produce a *whole lot* of water in the course of metabolizing all that honey. They will even produce water when they metabolize dry sugar. (dry sugar as a moisture absorber is a myth for another thread though) Exactly how much water is produced I would have to research but It is probably near 50% of the honey consumed. Someone who was up on their chemistry could predict the amount quite closely from the formula for a common sugar. Just watch the exhaust pipe on a vehicle on a cold day and you could swear more water was produced than the volume of fuel burned. given that the incoming air has moisture but when the bees warm it it will have the capability to absorb moisture from the hive. It is the cooling off to the dew point of the moisture laden air that causes the condensation on the cool parts it contacts. As long as we can conduct it away and keep its temperature above its dew or condensation point, it will stay in suspension. How can we accomplish this. 

VanceG has described a good method with the analogy of making the top of the hive an insulated moist bubble and spilling the warm air out a 1" hole drilled under the top box handhold.
Lauri and Enjambres have both described methods that use a loose shavings layer or quilt for a ceiling. 

Unless we have rain or snow getting into the hive I think the main source of condensation comes from metabolizing the honey. I stand to be corrected on that as I dont have reference to it in regard to bees but get the theory from handling boiler exhaust and condensates. Just a different example of consuming a fuel.


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## sqkcrk

I often find my plastic inside feeders full of water. How does that happen? All my hives have covers.


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## TWall

So, back to the OT. Bees work to keep the cluster warm. They do not make any attempt to heat the interior cavity of the hive. Sometimes, some heat will escape the cluster and thus slightly warm the interior cavity of the hive. 

So, the answer is yes, bees only heat the cluster. But, bees are not perfect and some of the heat escapes the cluster.

Tom


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## crofter

Perhaps strictly speaking, we can only say that bees heat the cluster and some of that heat escapes to slightly warm the hive. 

If it were not cold in the hive the bees would not be clustered and deliberately in heating mode. Is not the level of their action dependent on hive temperature?


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## Adrian Quiney WI

An old beekeeper at a meeting I went to showed a hive in which he had placed a perspex or plastic cover over winter. When he lifted the outer cover he took a photo which showed that there was no condensation directly above the cluster, rather the condensation was at the edge of the cluster. This was one reason that I have chosen not to use the moisture board, I don't worry about the cluster getting wet - I rely on a top entrance to vent out excess moisture. In this climate we need some moisture in the hive for the bees to access the honey.


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## Barry

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/condensation/


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## Allen Martens

Bees heat the cluster, Bees heat the hive. It is impossible for one to happen without the other. The hive may be so poorly insulated and drafty (vented) that no temperature increase occurs and all of the heat energy is lost to the outside environment. Doesn't mean to the heat energy wasn't transferred into the hive, it just didn't stick around very long.

The statement bees only heat the cluster, not the hive is analogous to saying the conversion of electrical energy to heat energy in a stove element only heats the element not the pot above, or the fire in a wood stove converting chemical energy to heat energy only heats the wood stove not the room it is in .... or the conversion of chemical energy to heat energy in the bee only heats the bee not the surrounding.

A well insulted hive with no ventilation would warm up very quickly. 

I winter my bees in a 2000 sq ft building with a 16 foot ceiling. At -20 C (0 F) I still run a 3000 cfm exhaust fan for 3+ hours a day in total drawing in cold ambient air. The temperature inside the building remains at about 5 - 7 C and no heat is added. My other nonheated buildings are below 0 C. So, if the bees aren't heating the hive and the surrounding space around the hive, where is the heat coming from?


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## Juhani Lunden

Well said.

Trouble with too well insulated hives is that in mild winters and strong hives they can become too warm and bees move too much.

In poorly insulated hives this never happens and bees may be consuming a little bit more, because of heat loss, but because they sit calmly the whole winter the difference in food consumption is minimal.


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## Daniel Y

Allen Martens said:


> The hive may be so poorly insulated and drafty (vented) that no temperature increase occurs and all of the heat energy is lost to the outside environment. Doesn't mean to the heat energy wasn't transferred into the hive, it just didn't stick around very long.
> 
> The statement bees only heat the cluster, not the hive is analogous to saying the conversion of electrical energy to heat energy in a stove element only heats the element not the pot above, or the fire in a wood stove converting chemical energy to heat energy only heats the wood stove not the room it is in .... or the conversion of chemical energy to heat energy in the bee only heats the bee not the surrounding.
> 
> A well insulted hive with no ventilation would warm up very quickly.


Would a Christmas tree with all the lights on heat your house? No it is not producing enough heat. A hive that is not adequately warm and remains that way by my definition is not being heated. That some heat is being lost to the hive is a so what. It does not come close to a heating the hive energy production. The bees don't even keep the entire cluster warm.


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## Rader Sidetrack

So, Daniel, would you care to explain why Allen's "bee building" (referenced in post #124 that you quoted) is *warmer *than his other outbuildings, when none of those buildings are heated with heating appliances? Where does that heat come from? :scratch:


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## sqkcrk

When I say that bees don't heat their hive, I mean that they don't heat their hive like humans heat their homes. In order to survive the cold of Winter I heat the rooms, the whole hose actually, that I am going to occupy. 

My family does not cluster together to keep each other warm. Not like in days past when all of the children in one family shared one bed. Or a couple of centuries ago in America when travelers found a bed at a Tavern and they paid for space in a bed sharing that bed w/ more than one person. Why? Because there was no central heating system.

Clustered bees give off heat, sure, but that is different from heating a cavity.


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## peterloringborst

Allen Martens said:


> Bees heat the cluster, Bees heat the hive. It is impossible for one to happen without the other. A well insulted hive with no ventilation would warm up very quickly. So, if the bees aren't heating the hive and the surrounding space around the hive, where is the heat coming from?


Again, the heat coming from the cluster is waste heat. To suggest that bees are trying to heat the hive because heat comes off the cluster is the same as saying I am trying to heat the room by walking around naked. My internal temperature is 98.6 so if the room gets cold, I put on my clothes. More cold, more clothes. The colony uses bees as their insulation and heats the core. Some heat must escape the core to keep the outer layer from becoming chilled and unconscious. 

No matter how much insulation the hive has, the interior temperature will remain close to ambient temperature -- if the entrances are open. Same as your house. What good would insulation do if you left the front door open in winter? All heating systems have waste heat issues. That's where the efficiency factor comes in. If you insulated your house to 100% efficiency, you would suffocate because you'd use up all the oxygen in it. There has to be fresh air circulation and waste gas outflow -- both in houses and in beehives. 

The best metaphor is an unheated house. If you live in an unheated house, the interior temp is close to the outdoor temp. You may give off some heat but the more clothes you wear, the less heat you will radiate -- while keeping yourself warmer at the same time. If the outdoor temp went to say 50 below, and the house was unheated you might be warmer than you would be outdoors, but not by much. So, you would have to wear clothing that kept you safe at that temperature. 

The survival of a bee cluster depends on them insulating the core with their own bodies. If the core stops heating because they consume all the honey, they will perish, regardless of insulation. Also, if they can't move to where more honey is, same thing. Bees freeze


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## sqkcrk

Daniel Y said:


> The bees don't even keep the entire cluster warm.


Sure they do DanielY. If the bees on the outside edges of the cluster don't maintain a body temperature of 45 degrees those individual bees will loose muscle control and die. They are kept warm by sharing body heat.

The bees that make up the cluster may not all be at the same temperature, but the cluster does maintain a temperature that maintains enough heat for all the bees to survive.


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## jmgi

Rader Sidetrack said:


> So, Daniel, would you care to explain why Allen's "bee building" (referenced in post #124 that you quoted) is *warmer *than his other outbuildings, when none of those buildings are heated with heating appliances? Where does that heat come from? :scratch:


I'm still waiting to hear the answer to this one too.


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## Acebird

jmgi said:


> I'm still waiting to hear the answer to this one too.


You should have Rader calculate the latent heat and pounds of water pumped into those buildings per hour. He is infallible when it comes to science projects like this.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Can't do any of those calculations without basic inputs, Ace!! Are you going to post those numbers? :lpf:


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## Acebird

Start reading...

http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/CAT72345678/PDF



> The bees maintained the center of the cluster
> at a temperature above 80° F., but they did
> not heat the hive.


 Page 25


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## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Can't do any of those calculations without basic inputs, Ace!! Are you going to post those numbers? :lpf:





> I winter my bees in a 2000 sq ft building with a 16 foot ceiling.


Ask him how many hives he has in the building and SWAG it at 50-60K bees per hive.


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## sqkcrk

Graham asks Brian for numbers and calculations and Brian replies w/ a request for numbers and calculations. Roundy rounder anyone?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Ask him how many hives he has in the building and [HIGHLIGHT]SWAG[/HIGHLIGHT] it at 50-60K bees per hive.


If a _ *W*ild *A*ss *G*uess_ is your idea of _science_, its easy to see how you came to believe that heat emitting from a cluster of bees does not also (coincidentally) heat the hive!

:ws:


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## Ian

peterloringborst said:


> No matter how much insulation the hive has, the interior temperature will remain close to ambient temperature -- if the entrances are open.


Thats the key. Proper entrance restriction regulates the natural air flow. Tighter packs keep and reduced entrances keep the inside of the pack warmer. They are kicking off 25w of energy.


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## Rader Sidetrack

sqkcrk said:


> Roundy rounder anyone?


I agree, Mark. Keep in mind back in post #22 I posted this graph of hive temperatures ...









... and links to the _*SCIENCE *_[study] behind the graph, and what what was the result? 



As you can see, *some *simply _ignore _the science and just *stick their heads in the sand*.


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## sqkcrk

The result was I admitted to being wrong. And took a break from the conversation. What others did or didn't do, I don't know. Probably what you wrote.

I would note that below the cluster the temp appears to be the same as outside the hive.


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## crofter

We should take care not to confuse the terms heat and temperature. You can transfer X units of heat from one body to another and the temperature rise observed will depend on the mass and the rate of heat loss of the recipient. One of the laws of thermodynamics is that energy remains constant - cannot be created or destroyed - only converted or transferred. When bees produce heat, since they are not a perfect insulator, the heat will be transferred to their surroundings. That is not a matter of opinion. 

The degree of insulation and the amount of air exchange with the outside will vary the temperature rise that may be measured at various locations in the hive. Different placement of openings can certainly skew local temperature variation patterns within the hive. We could deliberately create a bad situation where condensation occurred directly over the bees and I think we have the ability to also control the amount of condensation to suit various climatic conditions.

From Barry's link to Dennis Murrel's site we can gather that there are locations that can suffer from too little condensation to make water available to the bees. Generally I dont think it is a problem.


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## Juhani Lunden

Bees have instincts to keep cluster core warm; 34C when rearing brood or 20C (?) without brood. Cluster starts forming when temperature drops below 14C. All bees must keep their thorax above 7C. These are the rules they follow. They don´t have a rule/instinct to keep the hive cavity warm.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Start reading...
> 
> http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/CAT72345678/PDF
> 
> Page 25


If anybody is taking Ace's quote _seriously,_ I suggest reading the entire couple paragraphs that he took that snippet from. In this part of the study, they have the hive in question - with bees - in a cooler at MINUS 55 degrees Centigrade. That converts to *MINUS 67 degrees Fahrenheit*. 

The temperature was measured 13 inches AWAY from the cluster!


> These studies showed that only 13 inches from the 85° in the center of the cluster the temperature was 140° lower or —55°.


And here is the single paragraph that contains Ace's quote ...


> The bees maintained the center of the cluster at a temperature above 80° F., but they did not heat the hive. In fact, [HIGHLIGHT]a large range of temperatures may exist within the hive when outside temperatures are very low [/HIGHLIGHT] and remain so for extended periods. Temperatures in some parts of the hive will approach those outside the hive.
> 
> http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/CAT72345678/PDF


Remember, this was all at -67 degrees F. Not surprising that 13 inches away from the cluster there is no measurable temperature above -67F. Its rather surprising that the bees weren't _*DEAD*_.

:bus


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## crofter

Rader, are you telling us that Aces cherry picked extreme examples are not convincing you? (sarcasm) That is such a common tactic it should be the first item on a reality check!


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## hilreal

jmgi said:


> I'm still waiting to hear the answer to this one too.


It all depends on how MANY hives are in the building realtive to the size of the building. Same idea with a hive. If you had a huge cluster such that they were filling up 90% of the interior space of the hive, yes, the hive would be quite toasty. However in my case where I have 2 large boxes with a fairly small cluster of bees, there is not enough radiant heat coming from the bees to significantly affect the temperature of the hive. If I am running around my house naked as in Peter's example, I will not do much to warm it. However if I had 200 people in my living room naked I imagine it would heat up pretty quickly......


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## jmgi

hilreal said:


> It all depends on how MANY hives are in the building realtive to the size of the building. Same idea with a hive. If you had a huge cluster such that they were filling up 90% of the interior space of the hive, yes, the hive would be quite toasty. However in my case where I have 2 large boxes with a fairly small cluster of bees, there is not enough radiant heat coming from the bees to significantly affect the temperature of the hive. If I am running around my house naked as in Peter's example, I will not do much to warm it. However if I had 200 people in my living room naked I imagine it would heat up pretty quickly......


True, you have to compare apples with apples. Both of Allen's buildings, the ones with the bees,and the ones without, would have to be constructed exactly alike and in very similar settings in order to accurately say that the bees are warming the building up to some extent. I just assumed they were, but in reality they probably aren't, so that could account for the differences he is seeing in temperature.


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## sqkcrk

hilreal said:


> However if I had 200 people in my living room naked I imagine it would heat up pretty quickly......


Were they all guys, I predict that they would all be as far away from each other as possible. Were they all women, they would all be as close together as necessary to maintain comfortable warm and they would probably rotate in from the outside layer. Were they a mixture of sexes I'm not sure what would happen.


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## Rader Sidetrack

I image that 200 people in a typical living room would probably break the floor joists! 




... regardless of what they were wearing, or _not _wearing ...


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## peterloringborst

> Thats the key. Proper entrance restriction regulates the natural air flow. Tighter packs keep and reduced entrances keep the inside of the pack warmer. They are kicking off 25w of energy.


Are you suggesting the heat is leaking out the bottom of the hive? Heat rises, so the opening at the bottom shouldn't matter much though we do close it down to keep out mice. 

The ideal insulation would be a cozy that would fit around the cluster, which would move with them. The chief value of insulation is to keep out the wind. It is wind chill that does them in, and this would not be reflected by thermometers. 

Also, insulation would tend to buffer extreme temperature changes. I think the hard won truth is that some years more insulation is better and some years less, depending on the weather conditions, since you want to protect from cold but occasional warming is beneficial as then they can loosen the cluster and move.


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## Acebird

hilreal said:


> However if I had 200 people in my living room naked I imagine it would heat up pretty quickly......


20,000 watts yeah I would say so. I know we cannot stand to have 10 people in our dining room with the windows open in the middle of winter.

I was trying to get Rader to use his flawless science to understand what you are saying.


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## sqkcrk

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I image that 200 people in a typical living room would probably break the floor joists!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... regardless of what they were wearing, or _not _wearing ...


Not if they were dehydrated.


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## Acebird

peterloringborst said:


> Also, insulation would tend to buffer extreme temperature changes. I think the hard won truth is that some years more insulation is better and some years less, depending on the weather conditions, since you want to protect from cold but occasional warming is beneficial as then they can loosen the cluster and move.


The last item on the summary for the study linked to.



> (20) Under normal winter conditions either
> insulated or noninsulated colonies should survive
> at Madison, Wis.


----------



## crofter

I agree that it would not be to the bees advantage to heat the hive greatly. That chart posted earlier giving bees feed consumption in relation to temperature would quickly show that. My suggestion is that maitaining more rather than less of the bees heat loss results in slightly warmer air than can then hold a higher amount of moisture and can be removed from the hive with less inclination to condense and fall back into the hive.


----------



## Allen Martens

crofter said:


> We should take care not to confuse the terms heat and temperature.


You saved me a post Frank. Heat and temperature are not synonyms.

If the statement "Bees only heat the cluster, not the hive" means they are not intentionally heating the hive, I agree. If the statement means that they are not heating the hive, then the statement is false. If the bees are producing heat, then heat will be transferred to the surrounding hive -- probably mostly by convection (resulting in the space above the cluster being warmer), but by radiation and conduction as well. If a hive has snow on it when the ambient temperature is slightly below freezing, the snow will melt on the bigger hives but not on the deadouts or small hives. Obviously, hive must have been heated in order for the snow to melt.

The temperature in the hive may not increase if there is a large upper vent and a convection current carries the heat out. This does not negate the fact that the hive was heated by the cluster of bees. Block the vents and the temperature would go up. Insulate the hive and the temperature would increase further. I am not saying this is desirable; I am just saying these would be the results of the heat being released by the bees and heating the hive.

Insulating the hive seems pointless if a convection current is removing the hive. However, a well insulated hive will have much less condensation and frost on the outside surfaces. The temperature gradient will be pushed outward. Based on some of the research cited in earlier posts this may not be desirable. Most beekeepers up north would say it is a good thing.
I image if bees don't heat the hive and heat isn't lost from bottom openings, entrance reducers are a waste of time in spring.


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## Ian

peterloringborst said:


> Are you suggesting the heat is leaking out the bottom of the hive? Heat rises, so the opening at the bottom shouldn't matter much though we do close it down to keep out mice.


closed bottom entrance, reduced top entrance. Up here an open bottom entrance creates too much draft.


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## Roland

Acebird quoted:


(20) Under normal winter conditions either
insulated or noninsulated colonies should survive
at Madison, Wis.

Unfortunately, we are about 40 miles east of Madison Wis. which has not had a "Normal" winter in years. last winter i doubt if many uninsulated(top) hives survived. Rumor was that NONE survived in the 2 counties 70 miles to the ESE of Madison

crazy Roland


----------



## BeeCurious

Ian might recognize this Infrared image that Swobee posted back in January of 2008.

There's a lot of heat to be "explained away"... opcorn:


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## Juhani Lunden

Ian said:


> closed bottom entrance, reduced top entrance. Up here an open bottom entrance creates too much draft.


Are you overwintering hives in Canada with closed bottom entrances? How big top entrance?

In the Steppler Honefarm pictures I did not notice any top entrances.


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## Juhani Lunden

Roland said:


> . last winter i doubt if many uninsulated(top) hives survived. Rumor was that NONE survived in the 2 counties 70 miles to the ESE of Madison


 They had a top entrance?

I have overwintered hives with no insulations for 20 years, look at the picture in post 140. No top entrances, roof is well insulating polyurethane sheet. I have often wondered how come the hive structure in US is not suitable for hard winter conditions: top entrance + no insulation on top.


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## Daniel Y

Rader Sidetrack said:


> So, Daniel, would you care to explain why Allen's "bee building" (referenced in post #124 that you quoted) is *warmer *than his other outbuildings, when none of those buildings are heated with heating appliances? Where does that heat come from? :scratch:


First of all construct a duplicate building and don't put bees in it. then see how much if any of a temperature change their really is. 

Since I agree that I would expect there to be some. I woudl first suspect humidity differences. Moist air is warmer than dry air. bees and hives release moisture. increasing humidity. The heat is coming from the same places that any heat comes from. Every object will absorb heat energy right out of the air if necessary in accordance with it's ability to do so.

Second would be the fact that the building full of bees is full of anything. most objects will absorb more heat than air will. What this means is air tends to give up heat to a lot of things. like wood, wax, moisture, honey, pollen, paint, 

Now it does not seem to me that this conversation can reach any sort of resolution about weather bees heat a hive alone or not. so what is the purpose of switching the subject of the conversation? My answer for an entire building full of bees and a hive are exactly the same. it is some space that is full of substances that more readily absorb the available heat then a space full of air. And the heat energy comes from the sun mainly.


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## Daniel Y

sqkcrk said:


> Sure they do DanielY. If the bees on the outside edges of the cluster don't maintain a body temperature of 45 degrees those individual bees will loose muscle control and die. They are kept warm by sharing body heat.
> 
> The bees that make up the cluster may not all be at the same temperature, but the cluster does maintain a temperature that maintains enough heat for all the bees to survive.


A temperature they can survive is 45 degrees. I would not consider that warm. So that issue is simply a difference in what woudl be described as warm. That the outer layers of the cluster gets that cold would serve to increase the efficiency factor. Less temperature difference less heat lost.

The idea that the heat lost by the cluster actually warms the hive does not hold up for me. The heat escaping is exposed through an open entrance at the very least to the entire atmosphere. Basically I don't consider bees at 45 degrees to be being heated. and I don't consider air in a hive at 17 degrees to be being heated. Heated to a bee is 90 to 95 degrees. And anything less than that is simply some degree of not being warmed.

The question is, do bees contribute to the temperature of the interior of the hive being higher than what it would be without bees. I believe the answer is yes. But not due to any heat the bees generate. Bees contribute to a higher temperature inside the hive simply becasue they are made up of substances that more readily absorb heat. The hive is also full of other substances that will do the same. Honey, wax, wood, water. But bees do not generate heat energy that does. Keep in mind if a substance is capable of absorbing heat better than the object next to it. it will take that heat. even if that object next to it is ice.

Why does ice melt of of certain objects faster than others? Say off an asphalt street before it melts off a grass covered lawn? Now barring any of the other many factors involved. one reason is asphalt absorbs heat more readily than grass does. Warming faster warming the snow as a result causing it to melt. Asphalt is not generating any heat of it's own. lt is simply absorbing heat from any source it can. and it is warmer than the air. a cars metal surface will be warmer than the air. the ground is warmer than the air. Now a flag poll is actually warmer than the air. just not enough. Btu if it is so cold outside that your tongue will stick to a poll. why does your tongue not freeze simply because you opened your mouth? It is because metal absorbs heat faster, more readily than air does. It will take heat so fast in fact it will freeze the moisture in your tongue instantly. The answer. give it some other heat to take and it will stop taking the heat from your tongue. Lucky for us air is very slow at taking heat.


----------



## Daniel Y

jmgi said:


> I'm still waiting to hear the answer to this one too.


Well now you have it. but the simple answer is the exact same as why a hive itself has a higher temperature than the outside air. Which is why early anything is warmer than outside air. Which is why a substance such as ice cannot even form unless the air cooperates. Nearly anything will take heat form air. Because air is really bad about keeping it.

All that has been done with this question is changing the structure that is being discussed. changing the number of bees involved. Oh, okay we can't agree on a small object so lets change the size of the object. maybe it all works out then.

Yep folks the big secret to your bees keeping themselves in a heated space is to just make bigger hives. Something near the size of your garage should do.


----------



## sqkcrk

BeeCurious said:


> Ian might recognize this Infrared image that Swobee posted back in January of 2008.
> 
> There's a lot of heat to be "explained away"... opcorn:


What is creating the 20 degrees heat below and outside the hive? What is creating the heat on top of the top cover? Maybe the Thread title should include the word "entire".


----------



## sqkcrk

So DanielY, the way you put things you seem to be saying that a hive w/ a dead colony of bees in it would look just like the above picture. No way.


----------



## BeeCurious

sqkcrk said:


> What is creating the 20 degrees heat below and outside the hive? What is creating the heat on top of the top cover? Maybe the Thread title should include the word "entire".


Entire planet...


----------



## sqkcrk




----------



## BeeCurious

I believe that we may have passed an evolutionary milestone. 











Next up: THE WHEEL


----------



## mathesonequip

sqkcrk said:


> I often find my plastic inside feeders full of water. How does that happen? All my hives have covers.


condensation or possibly wind blowing in water you do not see.


----------



## Acebird

Roland said:


> Acebird quoted:
> 
> 
> (20) Under normal winter conditions either
> insulated or noninsulated colonies should survive
> at Madison, Wis.
> 
> Unfortunately, we are about 40 miles east of Madison Wis. which has not had a "Normal" winter in years. last winter i doubt if many uninsulated(top) hives survived. Rumor was that NONE survived in the 2 counties 70 miles to the ESE of Madison
> 
> crazy Roland


Ah, you don't believe in science?


----------



## Acebird

BeeCurious said:


> Ian might recognize this Infrared image that Swobee posted back in January of 2008.
> 
> There's a lot of heat to be "explained away"... opcorn:


The photo is showing a strong heat source below the bottom board. What was the topic that this photo came from?


----------



## mathesonequip

this reminds me the empire state honey producers meeting is coming up soon


BeeCurious said:


> I believe that we may have passed an evolutionary milestone.
> 
> 
> Next up: THE WHEEL


----------



## Ian

Juhani Lunden said:


> Are you overwintering hives in Canada with closed bottom entrances? How big top entrance?
> 
> In the Steppler Honeyfarm pictures I did not notice any top entrances.


WHEN I use to winter outside, I closed the bottoms and used a inner cover top entrance, about 3/4". Now I winter indoors, no top entrances needed and bottom entrances wide open


----------



## Ian

BeeCurious said:


> Ian might recognize this Infrared image that Swobee posted back in January of 2008.
> 
> There's a lot of heat to be "explained away"... opcorn:


I dont remember the conversation, probably exactly the same one as this. I think the picture says it all... LOL !
Now, when putting insulation around a bee hive... opcorn:


----------



## sqkcrk

BeeCurious said:


> Ian might recognize this Infrared image that Swobee posted back in January of 2008.
> 
> There's a lot of heat to be "explained away"... opcorn:


20 degrees? That colony is dead, isn't it?


----------



## Ian

Daniel Y said:


> First of all construct a duplicate building and don't put bees in it. then see how much if any of a temperature change their really is.


What? Are you serious? Daniel, last winter we had a cold winter, -25degrees C most days. I had 900 hives in my 45'by50' wintering shed with continuous ventilation and the bees kept the chamber at +4 degrees the entire winter without any supplemental heat. My insulated storage shed right beside the honey house, where I store honey boxes, froze out nicely. 

When spring arrives, the heat off the bees needs to be expelled by replacing the indoor air with outdoor air... the heat generated by the bees is pulled out of the building, and replaced by outside air. It is why we have massive vent fans in our buildings


----------



## sqkcrk

Bottom line, live colonies of honeybees create heat. I don't see how that can be disputed, but someone probably will dispute it.
:lookout:


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> The photo is showing a strong heat source below the bottom board. What was the topic that this photo came from?


There is no heat source below the hive. 

The image below had footsteps as the heat source.


----------



## Acebird

Ian said:


> It is why we have massive vent fans in our buildings


If you put a false ceiling in and a grated floor you could bring in the cold air at the top and draw out the heat and moisture through the floor. This would decrease your fan requirement and save some electricity. It would eliminate the stratification of air in the room. Putting multiple pallets under the hives would be a cheap way of grating the floor. You may have to put some building paper between hives to get the even flow.


----------



## Acebird

BeeCurious said:


> There is no heat source below the hive.
> 
> The image below had footsteps as the heat source.


Somebody was walking underneath the hive?:scratch:


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> Somebody was walking underneath the hive?:scratch:




Get that garden soil tested for lead!


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> If you put a false ceiling in and a grated floor you could bring in the cold air at the top and draw out the heat and moisture through the floor. This would decrease your fan requirement and save some electricity.


Seems counter intuitive to me since cool air is likely to exist closer to the floor and warm air closer to the ceiling. So how are you suggesting that the hot air get down to the floor? W/out the use of electricity and a fan?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Well, Mark, Ace doesn't know the *details *of Ian's _current _fan/ventilation arrangement. And Ace doesn't even trust his own math calculations. But he *knows *_Ian _could save electricity by following Ace's plan! :lpf:

Why are you worrying about "counter intuitive"? ... its _Acebird _...




Acebird said:


> If you put a false ceiling in and a grated floor you could bring in the cold air at the top and draw out the heat and moisture through the floor. [HIGHLIGHT]This would decrease your fan requirement[/HIGHLIGHT] and save some electricity. It would eliminate the stratification of air in the room.


:ws:


----------



## sqkcrk

Yup, :ws:.


----------



## crofter

BeeCurious said:


> There is no heat source below the hive.
> 
> The image below had footsteps as the heat source.


My guess; footprints are pockets of air not swept by the wind and solar heated. Sun on the left. Same effect under the landing board of the hive. ?


----------



## BeeCurious

crofter said:


> My guess; footprints are pockets of air not swept by the wind and solar heated. Sun on the left. Same effect under the landing board of the hive. ?


I think it would have been dark in Kansas at 8pm on December 22, and also at 11 pm on the 16th.


----------



## crofter

Lets see; a grated floor, hmmm! Ian do you move the hives in and out with a forklift? 

Where heat is being produced, heavy coolant introduced at bottom displaces lighter warmed air upwards. If heat is to be dissipated in an enclosure, then hot and light in at the top, gets cooled and heavier and falls out the bottom.

Of course this is entirely off the gist of Ian's post which was about the amount of heat produced by clustered bees. The effect is not very strong but when you put a bunch of them together it is hard to otherwise explain away the heat or where it came from.


----------



## Ian

BeeCurious said:


> There is no heat source below the hive.
> 
> The image below had footsteps as the heat source.


I used a camera like this to find my heat lines in the floor. This picture is using a scale up to between -17 and 4 degrees F. I believe the first pic used a scale from 4-20 degrees F. 
Interesting picture! Shows how much snow insulates and retains heat from the ground. One reason why we like to have snow cover over our packs. 
Im going to use one of these cameras in my wintering chamber to see if I can tell the condition of my hives.


----------



## Ian

Acebird said:


> If you put a false ceiling in and a grated floor you could bring in the cold air at the top and draw out the heat and moisture through the floor. This would decrease your fan requirement and save some electricity. It would eliminate the stratification of air in the room. Putting multiple pallets under the hives would be a cheap way of grating the floor. You may have to put some building paper between hives to get the even flow.


I appreciate your input but having a hard time following the logic. You mean exhaust the hot air up top and draw cool air near the bottom right? Using natural air convection. 

But anyway Ace, I follow a saying; KISS, Keep it simple stranger! There is nothing simpler than intake vents, couple fans on thermostat and multiple ceiling fans. The daily maintenance is next to nothing other than a few bucks a month to run the fans.


----------



## mathesonequip

:shhhh:


sqkcrk said:


> Bottom line, live colonies of honeybees create heat. I don't see how that can be disputed, but someone probably will dispute it.
> :lookout:


sounds about right


----------



## Acebird

Ian said:


> But anyway Ace, I follow a saying; KISS, Keep it simple stranger!


It is simple... If the need is to air condition (remove heat and moisture) you bring the cold air in from the top and suck the air off from the floor. If you want to heat a space you bring in the hot air from the floor and suck it out the ceiling. Now economically if you are trying to do both from one system of duct work you have to make a compromise. So explain to me what you want to do. I made an assumption that you were only concerned about air conditioning. (removing heat and moisture)

BTW this is exactly what they do for computer rooms. (cool air in from the ceiling and exhaust air out the floor on an elevated grated floor).

Or you could be happy with what you got,


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> BTW this is exactly what they do for computer rooms. (cool air in from the ceiling and exhaust air out the floor on an elevated grated floor).


Here is a computer server room air handling diagram ....








Photo Credit
Oops, *wait *... they are doing it all *backwards *from Ace's plan! :no: :lpf:




Acebird said:


> Or you could be happy with what you got,


Well, you have not demonstrated why your plan for Ian's 'bee building' would require _LESS _electricity, Ace. After all hot air rises on its own accord, and yet your plan is to remove hot air from Ian's building at _floor _level. :scratch: Seems like that would require _more _fan HP and electricity to force the hot air _down_.


----------



## sqkcrk

If one wants to move hot air out of a room and bring in fresh and cool air why wouldn't one simply install ceiling vents so hot stale air could escape and have floor vents w/fans bringing cool fresh air in from outside? One might need artificially cooled air when outside temps are warmer than one wants inside temps to be, I guess. But why wouldn't one use the natural tendencies of warm air and cool air to one's advantage instead of fight against what naturally occurs?

I'm not an engineer, so there is probably something I am missing.


----------



## BeeCurious

BeeCurious said:


> I believe that we may have passed an evolutionary milestone.
> 
> Next up: THE WHEEL


I was overly optimistic... 




Alice ( in Beesource Land) said:


> But why wouldn't one use the natural tendencies of warm air and cool air to one's advantage instead of fight against what naturally occurs?


Mad Hatter:
"If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?"


----------



## sqkcrk

:lpf:


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Ace. After all hot air rises on its own accord, and yet your plan is to remove hot air from Ian's building at _floor _level. :scratch: Seems like that would require _more _fan HP and electricity to force the hot air _down_.


Oh wow how fast we forget what we say in other threads. You sure you believe in science? Cold air comes in the top, what does the hot air do? That's right it combines with colder air. Seems natural to me. Now how do you get rid of the air that is coming in? It has to go somewhere. OK, what is generating the heat and moisture? The bees. Where are they? On the floor or the ceiling? Hey let's suck that heat and moisture on the floor out of the building. Seems natural to me.

Ian presently has a P38 mustang blowing air across the top of his ceiling creating laminar flow meanwhile his bees are roasting on the floor. The savings are in efficiency Rader.


----------



## BeeCurious

"the most glittering jewel of colossal ignorance" would be a nice tag for this thread.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Cold air comes in the top, what does the hot air do? That's right it combines with colder air. Seems natural to me.


And what of the CO2 that is the result of the bees' respiration? Instead of a straightforward flow-through ventilation, you are mixing up the fresh air with the CO[SUB]2[/SUB] laden air. "_The savings are in efficiency_" according to you. Will that pay for the potentially asphyxiated bees? 
:scratch:

How can you make these outlandish claims without ever seeing the building or studying its current layout? :s


----------



## Acebird

Asphyxiated bees?:scratch: How does that happen when you are bringing in outside air?

Unless I am confusing Ian with someone else he posted pics.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Unless I am confusing Ian with someone else he posted pics.


So you planned the HVAC redesign way back when you saw some photos posted by ... _someone_? :s

Or you are doing this HVAC redesign from a vague memory of some photo? 



:ws: Both ways!









... say _Ian_, what is the replacement cost of all those bee colonies if they are all killed by Ace's redesign?


----------



## Roland

juhani: we are not the norm. Most use an upper entrance, with little or no insulation, We use 1 1/2" of EPS on top of frames, with a tight corrugated plastic box slid over the top of the hive to prevent drafts. No upper entrance, only bottom restricted with mouse guard.

Crazy Roland


----------



## Ian

Acebird said:


> It is simple... If the need is to air condition (remove heat and moisture) you bring the cold air in from the top and suck the air off from the floor. If you want to heat a space you bring in the hot air from the floor and suck it out the ceiling.





Acebird said:


> Oh wow how fast we forget what we say in other threads. You sure you believe in science? Cold air comes in the top, what does the hot air do? That's right it combines with colder air. Seems natural to me. Now how do you get rid of the air that is coming in? It has to go somewhere. OK, what is generating the heat and moisture? The bees. Where are they? On the floor or the ceiling? Hey let's suck that heat and moisture on the floor out of the building. Seems natural to me.
> 
> Ian presently has a P38 mustang blowing air across the top of his ceiling creating laminar flow meanwhile his bees are roasting on the floor. The savings are in efficiency Rader.





Acebird said:


> Asphyxiated bees?:scratch: How does that happen when you are bringing in outside air?
> 
> Unless I am confusing Ian with someone else he posted pics.


wwhhaaaatttt???? 
Brian, I keep a blog, go look through it, my indoor wintering set up is quite simple. Air comes in, air mixes, air gets pulled out. KISS, Keep it simple stupid! 
BTW, the reason why outdoor wintered hives have top entrances is because...not to bring cold air in...


----------



## Ian

Rader Sidetrack said:


> ... say _Ian_, what is the replacement cost of all those bee colonies if they are all killed by Ace's redesign?


In a building that is to maintain itself, there is no other way to achieve proper ventilation other than using natural air movement upwards and out. When you provide ventilation over and under a heat source, the air flow will always circulate upwards and out every time. That is the rule. I manage the building environment with a fan. Its much easier paying a few bucks a month hydro to run a fan than trying to manipulate proper air flows naturally. 

Perhaps Brian is getting confused with my blog pics because my in vents are all ceiling height. The reason is so that I don't tear them off with the forklift and it keeps the rodents out.

this thread has fallen off the rails more times than needed... lol... for all you newbees out there, remember one thing when preparing our hives for winter. Heat rises, and with that heat so goes moisture. Your objective is to move that moisture out of the hive, be it with a top entrance, wood shavings over your inner cover or ventilation fans in a wintering chamber. Keep them warm and dry.


----------



## Acebird

Ian said:


> When you provide ventilation over and under a heat source, the air flow will always circulate upwards and out every time. That is the rule.


Really? What do ceiling fans do?

The reason why you want the cold air coming through the ceiling and the exhaust through the floor is to get a more consistent temperature from floor to ceiling. If you are trying to keep the ambient temperature at 40 degrees for ALL the hives this would be important. If you don't mind having the hives on top warmer then the hives on the bottom then keep doing what you are doing.

If you do the reverse as Rader thinks you should (cold in from the floor and exhaust through the ceiling) you will have the greatest differential in temperature. And most likely chill the bottom hives.

If you bring in cold air from top on one side of the room and exhaust it out the other side towards the top you will have a differential from side to side and from top to bottom besides having stagnate air at the bottom of the room.

This phrase "hot air rises" is like a broken record. Words repeated over and over again but you don't know the meaning. Hot air is at the ceiling, yes, so you need to bring in cold air at the ceiling to reduce the temperature.


----------



## sqkcrk

Ian, can you show us w/ pictures what your indoor wintering facility looks like? Or do we have to go to your site? I didn't know that you stack your hives.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> If you do the reverse as Rader thinks you should (cold in from the floor and exhaust through the ceiling) you will have the greatest differential in temperature.


Get a *clue*, Ace!  :lpf:

I offered *NO *advice as to what what _Ian _should do. I simply pointed out that *you *were _*JUST MAKING STUFF UP!*_

:bus



... HVAC redesign via *ESP *... priceless ... :gh:


----------



## crofter

Mad Hatter:
"If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?" (credit to Beecurious)!

Solutions to imaginary problems and cures worse than the disease!


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

The best way to see photos of the Wintering Shed is to go to Ian's site and use the Search feature on the home page for "wintering shed". There are multiple posts under that tag. Here is one of the photos:








Photo Credit

(click the photo credit link to go to Ian's blog, and then enter "wintering shed" in the search box in the upper right.)









_Interior without bees - note the vents on the wall_









_not all the bees make it through the winter_
.


----------



## Ian

I am so lost on what your trying to achieve I have no idea what your on about. We bring in cold air, we mix the air, we exhaust the air. Hot air rises, cold air sinks we mix it. If your trying to maintain a wintering room without running fans ( which I think that is what your on about) then you have to tap into natural convection air flows and exhaust the air up over the heat source, pulling from below. Otherwise you will get air layering. Cold air will not just come into the building, you need to have the air pulled in, and that is done as air is exhausted upwards. 

Im not trying to maintain my building using natural convection. It is just not practical. I use fans to mix and exhaust the air.


----------



## Ian

sqkcrk said:


> Ian, can you show us w/ pictures what your indoor wintering facility looks like?



http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/IanSteppler/media/IMG_0346_zpseedb3a28.jpg.html?sort=3&o=19

note, ceiling fans to mix air.

Thx Rader, I only know how to use photo bucket! lol


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

If all you want to do is look at the wintering shed _photos_ (meaning _no _accompanying text), I found an *almost *direct link. Click here, then look for the link titled "Winter Shed Gallery" under the PAGES heading on the right.


----------



## mathesonequip

:applause:I was at post #201 and I was ready to give up and unsubscribe to this thread, gone to useless... from #202 up it is real useful, I will see how this goes.


----------



## Acebird

Ian said:


> If your trying to maintain a wintering room without running fans ( which I think that is what your on about)


No, Ian I am not suggesting that at all. I don't know where you got that idea. Of course you need fans but you wouldn't need those ceiling fans that are counteracting the "hot air rises". I can't believe my eyes. You learned that you needed the ceiling fans to break up the stratification but you think it won't work if you use the exhaust fans that you need to remove the air from the building.

The cold air should not come in from one side wall it should come down through vents in the ceiling to be evenly distributed.

I would also suggest that you use squirrel cage blowers like what is on every furnace instead of the axial fans that I think you are using.


----------



## Allen Martens

KISS Brain

The devices you add to a set the more chance for things to go wrong.

I finally got around to adding ceiling fans to my wintering shed. For the last 5 years my wintering setup has consisted of a $150 exhaust fan at ceiling level and intakes at ceiling level on the other side of the shed. The fan is control by a block heater time. $25.

1000 hives with 5 - 10% winter loss.

Your suggestions make my head hurt.


----------



## Acebird

Allen Martens said:


> KISS Brain
> 
> The devices you add to a set the more chance for things to go wrong.


LOL so you are adding more devices? You make my head hurt.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Why am I thinking of this ... 









Photo Credit



... HVAC redesign via *ESP *... _priceless _...


----------



## Barry Digman

FWIW, heat does not rise. Air that is warmer than it's surroundings will. (I think that's right)


----------



## Acebird

Barry Digman said:


> FWIW, heat does not rise. Air that is warmer than it's surroundings will. (I think that's right)


I think that is right Barry and in an open room it rises very slowly otherwise you wouldn't be able to counteract that with a typical ceiling fan.


----------



## Ian

Acebird said:


> No, Ian I am not suggesting that at all. I don't know where you got that idea. Of course you need fans but you wouldn't need those ceiling fans





Acebird said:


> *If you put a false ceiling in and a grated floor you could bring in the cold air at the top and draw out the heat and moisture through the floor. This would decrease your fan requirement and save some electricity. *


Oh so your talking about cutting out the ceiling fans, not the ventilation fans... Clear as mud Brian.

well yes, having air intakes throughout the entire ceiling would work fine. Many wintering sheds simply use inflatable ducting to disperse the incoming air across the room. 

Your idea is not saving much electricity yet increases the cost of construction. KISS Brian, KISS
And Im having trouble finding the flaw in my wintering room... air comes in, mixes and is expelled through vent fans. I have no dead air pockets, and I have no air layering... The reason I have 10 ceiling fans is not so much to mix the air ( probably 5 would be sufficient in my room space ) but to create a windy environment inside the room as the temperature increases late winter. It helps keep the bees in the boxes. ,,,,bet you have an improvement on that idea also???

Your suggestions make my head hurt.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> I think that is right Barry and in an open room it rises very slowly otherwise you wouldn't be able to counteract that with a typical ceiling fan.


The point of the ceiling fan isn't to push the hot air down (or to pull the cold air up, either). The point of the ceiling fan is to create a _*flow *_of the air to reduce the "layering" effect.








Photo Credit
- or -​







Photo Credit


----------



## Barry Digman

Ian said:


> And Im having trouble finding the flaw in my wintering room...


The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. You're achieving 10%-15% overwintering losses. It's obvious to even the most casual of observers that there is no flaw.


----------



## Acebird

Ian said:


> but to create a windy environment inside the room as the temperature increases late winter. It helps keep the bees in the boxes.


You are creating a windy environment because your ventilation is inefficient and if you improve the efficiency you will save electricity. I am absolutely certain you are getting dead air space near the bottom boxes. Like I said if you are happy with what you have so be it.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Uhh, Ace, Ian is _*DELIBERATELY *_creating wind when the outside temperatures are warmer so the bees _AVOID FLYING IN THE BUILDING_!

:digging:

See post #216 which includes this ...


> It helps keep the bees in the boxes.


:lpf:


... watch out ... here comes that _bunny _again ...


----------



## Allen Martens

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Uhh, Ace, Ian is _*DELIBERATELY *_creating wind when the outside temperatures are warmer so the bees _AVOID FLYING IN THE BUILDING_!


That's a big reason I am installing ceiling fans. Had them in my old building and they sure keep bees in their boxes in warmer conditions. Just took a while to get around to it in my new building (if 5 years old is new).


----------



## Ian

Acebird said:


> You are creating a windy environment because your ventilation is inefficient


Now...are you talking air ventilation or air circulation...

and no, there is not any dead air space anywhere in my building. Beekeepers will use a candle test to test air quality and movement.


----------



## BeeCurious

Ian, 

I'm getting the impression that you're thinking of implementing some of Acebird's suggestions. 

I don't know if the Acebirdization could be completed for less than $20,000 but think of the savings in electricity! Dollars! Several of them, over a period of months! 

Once the concrete is jackhammered away you might want to excavate. Dig in and realize some real savings! Increase your storage volume, make it a destination site! Charge admission, and have the visitors exit through the gift shop...


----------



## Roland

What??? No PLC's??? How can that possibly work? (in reference to my Variac driven Dadant extractor control)

Crazy Roland


----------



## Daniel Y

sqkcrk said:


> So DanielY, the way you put things you seem to be saying that a hive w/ a dead colony of bees in it would look just like the above picture. No way.


Mark, look at the scale on that photo. The hottest thing in that picture is 20 degrees. Not exactly what I would consider heated. The lowest temp is -4. A 24 degree scale but one so low that if the cluster in fact is that cold. I am pretty sure it is dead. So maybe a hive full of dead bees in fact looks exactly like that.

I in fact have not said anything about what I think a hive of dead bees would look like. much less what I think of that photo. You can make up anything you like.


----------



## sqkcrk

I don't understand what you are saying. Nor do I understand what that photo illustrates. I think it only indicates the surface temperatures, not the interior temperatures.


----------



## sqkcrk

BeeCurious said:


> Ian might recognize this Infrared image that Swobee posted back in January of 2008.
> 
> There's a lot of heat to be "explained away"... opcorn:


BC, what is this photo supposed to illustrate? Please note the source so I can look back at that thread myself. And how do you happen to have access to a photo from a Post from 2008 when I can't find anything from Swobee from any earlier than 2009. Did you save this photo for some reason? Thanks.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Mark, this appears to be the original thread where _Swobee _posted that photo (Dec 20 2007): 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?215041-My-first-try-at-pics&p=280476#post280476


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## sqkcrk

Thanks Graham. So it illustrates heat loss. Interesting.


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## Daniel Y

So how is it that the mound of snow surrounding the hive is loosing heat? How about what appears to be a fence in the background? It is correct that it is showing heat being lost. so where is the heat that snow and wood is loosing coming from? And where are the 90 degree temps others claim cluster would be loosing? Where are the 40 plus degree temps Grahams illustration indicates should be getting lost? where is that 90 plus degree temps generated by the cluster? In the cluster not being lost. Which is what I have been saying. and they generate that 90 degrees with very little effort.

I suppose I will find out how well bees make it through winter with no food though. Just looked at my hives yesterday. not looking good. nothing has any honey. Been a very bad year for bees here. Nothing is producing any nectar. not even the late season rabbit brush.


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## sqkcrk

Maybe the fence doesn't show a heat signature. Maybe it's reflected sunlight. I don't know.

You can't see the core of the cluster in this photo, only the surface temperatures. Nothing below the surface is visible in this photo in question. Am I right?

What? Your hives have no stored honey in them? There is no honey in your hives? And you are just now discovering this? What have you been doing? I'm surprised you have not already addressed this situation.


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## BeeCurious

Daniel Y said:


> I suppose I will find out how well bees make it through winter with no food though.


Hopefully you'll have a "control group" that will have some stores or be fed...


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## Ian

Daniel Y said:


> where is that 90 plus degree temps generated by the cluster? In the cluster not being lost. Which is what I have been saying.


I think the picture is pretty obvious, the hive is 20 plus degrees warmer than the snow sitting outside. Especially under the lid, the snow is acting as an insulator. 
Wrap a hive, sit it beside that one, and you will see a difference in heat loss. 

This picture represents heat loss. We use these guns on our houses, targeting areas of heat loss. The biggest area of heat loss, windows, door jambs, poorly insulated ceilings. Insulate the ceiling, install winter rated windows and seal the cracks. The house picture goes from bright yellow to a cool blue.


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## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Mark, this appears to be the original thread where _Swobee _posted that photo (Dec 20 2007):
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?215041-My-first-try-at-pics&p=280476#post280476


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?215041-My-first-try-at-pics&p=280476#post280476



> HennieK- yes this is a screened bottom board, but the slide in coverlet has been in place since mid-October. The soil is still fairly warm, even after our 1.26" freezing rain followed by 13-1/2" snowfall last week. I took some IR shots of some other houses and you can see heat through cracks in the street, storm sewer vents and such.


It appears that there is a heat source under the hive. Maybe Daniel is right and the hive is dead.


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## Ian

Acebird said:


> It appears that there is a heat source under the hive.


ever wonder why animals will bury down to the ground under the snow to make their dens?... snow insulates


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> It appears that there is a heat source under the hive. Maybe Daniel is right and the hive is dead.


Did you even *READ *_Swobee_'s comment in his post you linked?



Swobee said:


> [HIGHLIGHT] The bright spot below the hive is soil releasing warmth to the hive [/HIGHLIGHT]and air above & around it. I'm guessing later this winter as the soil temp lowers, I'll see less heat beneath the hive. I took some shots of my footprints and the lawn beneath the snow was much warmer, showing brightly colored footprints.


Do you really think you can tell better than _Swobee _what the condition of _his _hive is? :scratch: You think that he would not have mentioned if the hive was DEAD? :s


Absolutely amazing! :lpf: :doh: 


... Ace's *ESP *is going full bore ...


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> It appears that there is a heat source under the hive. Maybe Daniel is right and the hive is dead.


You and Daniel Y seem to be fighting over the steering wheel... 

And your short-bus of beekeeping knowledge is clearly in the ditch.


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## Vance G

Good grief! Will the pig wrestling never end! Put a fork in this it is done. You are only feeding the vampires.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Vance, I am the _Public Relations_ person for the Beesource _Smiley Union_. The smileys will be very disappointed if your request were to actually be implemented! :lookout:

The smileys have been getting plenty of exercise in this thread, and their only complaint is that some of them are getting overworked. I suspect there will be future opportunities for ALL smileys to have their place in the spotlight! 

:banana::kn::v:



Update:
:bus


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## Barry

Vance G said:


> Put a fork in this it is done.


A new chapter has just started! We have a small bus in the ditch with two guys fighting over the steering wheel, and it's not even moving!!!


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## Ian

Barry said:


> We have a small bus in the ditch with two guys fighting over the steering wheel, and it's not even moving!!!


:lpf:


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## mathesonequip

is the tire pressure of the bus affected by bee hive temperature on Tuesday? what about Thursday?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Actually, the bus _rolled over_ in the ditch,







and now the tire pressure has been _increased _because the tire treads are directly exposed to the sun.

I believe that any minute now _someone_ will come along with a _*fan*_ to deal with that situation. 


:gh:


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## peterloringborst

> Mark, look at the scale on that photo. The hottest thing in that picture is 20 degrees. Not exactly what I would consider heated. The lowest temp is -4. A 24 degree scale but one so low that if the cluster in fact is that cold. I am pretty sure it is dead. So maybe a hive full of dead bees in fact looks exactly like that.


The exact same thing had occurred to me.


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## sqkcrk

But Peter, if the colony were dead, would you expect the hive to be showing the same temperature as the snow?


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## BeeCurious

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I believe that any minute now _someone_ will come along with a _*fan*_ to deal with that situation.
> 
> :gh:



I'm guessing that it would require some Big Ass Fans!


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## rweaver7777

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I believe that any minute now _someone_ will come along with a _*fan*_ to deal with that situation.


Far be it from ME to disappoint. http://www.beecoolventilators.com/need.htm


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> But Peter, if the colony were dead, would you expect the hive to be showing the same temperature as the snow?


Not if the heat was coming from the ground. If the ground was at -4 and then you saw 20 at the top there would be at least the likelihood that there was a colony present.


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## Ian

peterloringborst said:


> The exact same thing had occurred to me.


I guess that pic answers the great question of this thread.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Not if the heat was coming from the ground. If the ground was at -4 and then you saw 20 at the top there would be at least the likelihood that there was a colony present.


Isn't that what I said?


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## Acebird

Well actually Mark the snow could be closer to 30 degrees if it was freshly fallen. That would look like a sun burst in that photo.


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## crofter

Here is a link to research by Professional Beekeepers Ascociation of Alberta. Some good data on winter consumption of different race bees, survival rates for different wrapping methods, indoor storage and moisture control. Note .68 pounds of water produced for each pound of honey consumed.


http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/winteringpdf.pdf


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## Daniel Y

sqkcrk said:


> What? Your hives have no stored honey in them? There is no honey in your hives? And you are just now discovering this? What have you been doing? I'm surprised you have not already addressed this situation.


Not just my bees. I have not been able to find any bees with any honey this entire year. We have done cut outs all over town. did one about two weeks ago. that entire colony had maybe a lb of honey total.

Two years running with almost no winter and severe drought even for our area. It seems to me like the plant life simply will not produce nectar. Had fruit trees blooming all over last spring. but no fruit set. I consider it a real world exampel of what will happen when bees or other pollinators are not attracted to the plants.

We have been feeding the bees a lot but at some point it becomes a poring good money after bad. What is the most cost effective solution. hundreds of dollars to feed them or hundreds of dollars to just replace them. Not to mention other possible solutions. At this time I am thinking as much as 50 lbs of feed per hive. Not sure that will even work. I have used sugar or sugar water as something to get them through. but not as their only food source.

Not certain just what I will do at this point.


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## Acebird

I wish I could help you Daniel. I battled grass all summer. I felt every 5 days I was mowing hay. I would try to tap into some of Dee's L. secrets if I lived in a desert zone. Somehow she does it.


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## mathesonequip

thank you for the link frank. I got a couple of good ideas.


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## Lauri

Here are photos of my place this morning. You can take them as you will & debate away

What do you notice about these photos? 

Temps in the high 30's last night..what does the dew (Or lack of it) on the insulation tell you? 


You wouldn't think the colony's heat could show through thick 2" foam, but each area without condensation shows the mirror image of the colony inside. You can see how big it is and exactly where it is within the hive. Almost as good as thermal imaging. This is the first real clustering temps we've had this fall. Area with no condensation is warm to the touch, outside area with condensation is ice cold.

You can also see why I bunch them together, especially the smaller nucs. Even with insulation seperating them, they still do share warmth and limit heat loss when clustered.










Above: The second double deep hive is interesting. 
The bottom deep is actually a divided mating nuc . 10 half sized deep frames on each side. The left side only is queenright.
Right bottom side has empty frames but no colony except spill over. I gave them standard frames in the second deep, which are filled and occupied. You can see the image slighly tells that story.
Why did I do this? 
This was one of those USDA Pol-Line virgin queens I brougt in this year. After she was mated I just left her in the mating nuc to grow & toped her off when they started getting crowded. They would have eventually spilled over to the other side, but the queens rarely will cross a barrier like that. They WILL Move up, however. That's just what she did.
























































You can easily see the colonies that have moved up from the bottom deep. Those deeps had excellent stores of pollen this year so they were left in place for winter. Abandoned by bees, but not empty. 

I walked through my yard like I had x-ray vision this morning.

Top and bottom entrances. Lids are well insulated. I use evaporation to control condensation within the hives. With the very large colonies I sometimes need to slightly enlarge the entrances to increase air flow.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Great Photos, Lauri! :thumbsup::thumbsup:


Now lets see who is the first to accuse you of "_*photoshopping*_" those photos.  After all, the heat from the cluster just ... uhhh ... ... mmm ... uhhh ... *evaporates *... yeah, that must be what happens ... before that heat gets to the hive walls - everyone knows that, don't they. :s  
... ... Right? Hello?!? Where is everyone? :scratch:


:digging:


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## TalonRedding

There's no photoshop involved there. And no heat evaporation either. Lauri must have put small battery-powered heaters in the hives just prior to sunset yesterday!  just kidding...
Those are some great photos though......and even better presentation material. :thumbsup:


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## Acebird

Lauri said:


> You wouldn't think the colony's heat could show through thick 2" foam, but each area without condensation shows the mirror image of the colony inside.


If heat didn't pass through insulation you would only need a thin sheet. Lauri, you do realize that the difference between dew and no dew is a couple of degrees. Why do you suppose that no dew appears on the front of the hives?


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## crofter

TalonRedding said:


> There's no photoshop involved there. And no heat evaporation either. Lauri must have put small battery-powered heaters in the hives just prior to sunset yesterday!  just kidding...
> Those are some great photos though......and even better presentation material. :thumbsup:


Nah! its all a mirage like water in the desert; no heat evidence there! Lol


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## sqkcrk

If that much heat sign is showing through the insulation what good is the insulation doing?


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## TalonRedding

crofter said:


> no heat evidence there! Lol


Oshkosh by Gosh! I never thought about that! Could it be that the pic was actually taken on a warm day right when she pulled the boxes out of the freezer? Absolutely sinister...... :shhhh:


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## TalonRedding

sqkcrk said:


> If that much heat sign is showing through the insulation what good is the insulation doing?


The best way to answer that is do a test trial with one insulated box compared to an uninsulated box using thermometers. I wondered the same, but then I also wondered how much heat was escaping without the insulation. I've never had to wrap my boxes, but those pictures make me curious about it now.....Would bees consume more resources being insulated during the winter than being uninsulated? :scratch:


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## Lauri

sqkcrk said:


> If that much heat sign is showing through the insulation what good is the insulation doing?


There's an obvious heat transfer, but it's the reduced heat loss that counts. Also the partial wind break factor.

The temps and dew point must have been just right this morning to see this expressed. The heat loss is minimal through 2" foam, but the heat source_ IS_ there radiating behind the 3/4" pine. 

I _could_ feel the difference in temps with my bare hand, which surprised me. 2" foam is pretty thick.

In my climate, the colonies overwinter very well like this. Many are somewhat honeybound come spring with very little consumption of stores until brood rearing starts in ernest..first part of March for the average colonies. Then my Maple flow is on.

My insulation helps avoid temperature fluctuation extremes.. both cold and warm. 
I want them loosly clustered and inactive except for cleansing flights. 
Not so tightly clustered they can't move to feed, not flying & partying when the sun comes out.


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## crofter

TalonRedding said:


> The best way to answer that is do a test trial with one insulated box compared to an uninsulated box using thermometers. I wondered the same, but then I also wondered how much heat was escaping without the insulation. I've never had to wrap my boxes, but those pictures make me curious about it now.....Would bees consume more resources being insulated during the winter than being uninsulated? :scratch:


I think it follows that if heat is escaping despite the insulation, surely more would escape without it.

Talon that is a good question about how the heat loss directly affects stored honey consumption. From looking at some of the charts that appear pretty darned authentic it seems that the consumpetion is not a strainght line but one with some sharp glitches at about -10C and again at plus 4C. In some areas of the temperature incline I think it possible that keeping heat in might put the bees into a higher metabolic state and so, at that point, not be an asset at all. Where it is really cold and 40 below F. not uncommon, I dont think many people are claiming that insulation and wind chill breaks are a waste of time. Maybe insulation at that point just gives them enough slack to slowly inch the cluster to new stores rather than starve in place.


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## mgolden

I would think there was frost on the outside of the insulation. As the ambient temp warmed, the heat from the bees melted the frost.

There is no moistue on front and rear of hives as they were warm enough so that no condensation occured on them.

From Wikipedia

"Dew is water in the form of droplets that appears on thin, exposed objects in the morning or evening due to condensation. As the exposed surface cools by radiating its heat, atmospheric moisture condenses at a rate greater than that at which it can evaporate, resulting in the formation of water droplets.[1]

When temperatures are low enough, dew takes the form of ice; this form is called frost.

Because dew is related to the temperature of surfaces, in late summer it forms most easily on surfaces that are not warmed by conducted heat from deep ground, such as grass, leaves, railings, car roofs, and bridges.

Dew should not be confused with guttation, which is the process by which plants release excess water from the tips of their leaves.


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## Daniel Y

First, It does not take much heat loss to do what Laurie's photos are showing. you can watch the same thing happen on your car.

Insulation slows the loss of heat, not prevents it.

I will accept that the melted area mirrors the cluster. so does that men the cluster is creating the heat or are the bees simply staying to the warmest part of the hive?

Many seem to be thinking that the unfrosted area means heat is being lost. I say the unfrosted area is locations that are staying warm. Warm enough that frost cannot form anyway. I say the frost areas are the areas that lost heat. So much so that they now have a frozen surface.

That a hive has heat in it still does not address the issue of where it gets that hear. where that heat ends up or how it remains in the hive.

I suppose that hive with it's insulation sets out in the sun all day. and I suspect that insulation gets warms a result. I also then suspect the insulation acts just like any insulation and is very slow in loosing that heat. so it stays warm and frost cannot form on it.

There is a lot of stuff in that hive to be warm besides bees as well. Lauries says outright that the insulation itself is warm. But I don't suspect any of the other stuff would be.

It is mainly a matter of. is that spot warm because the bees are there. or are the bees there because it is warmer?

You can see the same effect on frost forming on a car that has set in the sun all day. the interior of the car warms up. there are then patches on that car that may never form frost at all. at the very least there are patches that are the last to form any frost. it all has to do with how quickly the heat is lost from the interior of the car. Nothing inside that car to be generating heat.


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## enjambres

@Lauri:

Is your insulation double foil faced, or only one sided? And if only one sided, why do you face the foil out, rather toward the warm side? And if you don't mind my asking, what's the R-value of that product? 

I use unfaced 2" extruded foams with an R-value of R5 per inch, with additional 1" layer against the back side on top of that. And I use two sheets of 1" between the hives. (Two sheets accomodates the overhang of the tele covers of adjacent hives with slightly different heights.)

My climate (northern NY, Z4 when it sets its mind to it) is harsher than yours and colder for longer, I think.

I was at the building supply store yesterday considering whether to buy the foil-faced versions of foam, so seeing your pictures this morning is especially useful.

(Just getting ready to make my first batch of your bee-liscious sugar bricks. My older queens from last winter have been promising their young bees winter treats, it seems.)

Enj.


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## Lauri

Just to clarify, the center portions of the insulation was mostly dry & seemed somewhat warm to the touch in comparison to the wetter outside edges. Those edges look frosty but it is very finely concentrated cold dew moisture.

Whether facing north, south, east or west, the dew on the insulation on the hives was exactly the same. Temperature at the time the photos were taken was about 42 degrees.


I've previously stayed out of this thread, because I didn't have anything to contribute except my opinion.

But when I got home yesterday from my early morning walk, I saw those patterns and grabbed my camera. Thought you'd like to see and evaluate 

I have not entirely read this thread yet, so excuse me if some of this has already been covered.

It just makes sense to overwinter a small colony in the smallest hive configuration possibe to moderate heat loss of the colony to conserve caloric intake, or allow them to move to feed if needed. 

That's why I use a sugar block over my tiny mating nucs instead of giving them a second deep with honey frames over head. The low insulated lid over the cluster allows them to survive the bitter temps without excess stress. The block allows them to move up to feed & they pretty much cluster all around that block in the mild temps directly under the insulation. Everybody knows heat rises. As you can see, I don't worry much about the open space on the bottom or sides. It's the low deck overhead that is importaint here. 
I don't believe these colonies would survive with a big cold void overhead that would allow that heat loss. 










Even fall feeding needs some insulation measures to prevent the colonies loss of heat on cold nights. The won't take up syrup and won't rear much brood if it's too cool within the hive.
They need warmth as well as feed to rear fall bees. And they need warmth to start brood rearing again early spring.



















Divided deep mating nucs all wraped up for winter










Do you know your colonies strength and size? A large colony has no problems with a cold box of honey above them like a small one does. Seems to me the subject of indirect interior heating is only really relevant if you have a small colony to worry about.










As an update: (Yes Richard, you were right) Those hives has the same appearance this morning. I still felt the _apparent _temperature difference with my bare hand. But after wiping off the wet dew on the edges, the temp between the two areas, when they both were dry was then indistinguishable. It was the _wet surface_ that made it feel colder than the dry area. 

But still, the radiant heat source from the colonies is what made that moisture _adhesion_ differ in the first place. Not an big R value issue, just an interesting visual clue  The fact it would actually show through such thick foam is surprising.


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## Lauri

enjambres said:


> @Lauri:
> 
> Is your insulation double foil faced, or only one sided? And if only one sided, why do you face the foil out, rather toward the warm side?


Stupid reason...my darn pea brained chickens will peck the white side of the insulation, but not the foil side. You can see on the bottom right side what I mean.










I never checked instillation instructions. That backing is so thin I didn't figure it made any difference except for reflective value, which is what I want to avoid extreme solar gain in December/January/Early Feb. In the dead of winter, it can be in the single digits or high 60's + here.
But most of the time it's between 35 & 40 degrees.

Also, the foil side of the insulation is not as much an eye sore as the white side with writing all over it.

I'm not that serious about the insulation except on the tiny mating nucs. In the larger colonies, it's just an effort to somewhat control/moderate the colonies activity overwinter and support early brood rearing.

Hives insulated & clustered together like this will have more worker brood laid up all the way in the outside frames early spring as opposed to the outside frames pretty much ignored in uninsulated hives.

Now if I lived in Canada, Alaska or Minnesota-etc. I'd be much more detailed in my efforts.


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## Acebird

The dew appeared because the insulation is foil faced.


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## Lauri

Acebird said:


> The dew appeared because the insulation is foil faced.


To be more specific, I think the dew_ pattern_ was more _apparent_ because the darker foil side was out.


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## Barry Digman

When we're talking about heat, are we talking about convection, conduction, or radiation? Or all three.

Are we mistaking the heat that's naturally lost into the hive (and then through the walls and cover) for heat the bees are intentionally generating? In other words, is heat that may escape from the cluster into the hive simply heat that the bees have no way to keep within their cluster? If they're warming the hive as a byproduct of keeping the cluster warm it doesn't mean they're trying to heat that space. 

I don't see how we can determine their "intent".


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## Lauri

Barry Digman said:


> I don't see how we can determine their "intent".


I think _our_ intent is to understand their natural behavior so we can push the limits to aid/encourage/manipulate/manage them to _perform_ better for us, without the colony suffering negative effects. 

Some want better, longer, earlier, higher performance. Some just want a _live _colony come spring.

I push the limits at my place all the time, in order to see just how far I can go. Many times I'm surprised my highly invasive efforts actually end up benefiting the colony. It's amazing how much more performance you can get out of them, especially after the main flow.

If left to their own devices, they'd just hang out for a couple months late summer and do a whole bunch of nothing until fall. I make my lazy late summer bees work. But to do that, I have to understand them first.
And to overwinter successfully, you also have to understand their needs, behavior & natural 'environment' . Well, as natural as 3/4" pine can get.


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## crofter

I doubt they intend to heat anything outside the cluster but does intent change the end result of heat loss? T The bees on the outside will be casualties though if enough heat does not escape from the cluster core to keep those from falling below their critical temperature. I dont know how they communicate the temperature control needs but they do seem able to shiver up more or less heat as needed. The amount of heat lost would seem to be the controlling factor for the amount of heat produced, would it not?


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## Fetustician

This may be totally stupid question, and I am ignorant of the matter, but if the entrance is reduced in the winter, could a small solar heater (a front foil of transparent material over a 1/2" layer of air backed by black material be placed and the entrance so that by thermosyphon a little warm air is added on sunny days? or would that make the bees feel spring has arrived and be detrimental? I made a rudimentary drawing, and I suppose that a mesh at the entrance of the air gap would be needed.
This may be too fussy for those with many beehives, but for those with few hives, would this have a possible benefit? 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16536&d=1426011616&thumb=1&stc=1


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## Michael Bush

>...could a small solar heater ...

The problem in winter is the -27 F nights, not the sunny days... and then what happens when it hits 70 F outside and the heater is making it even warmer... or it only hits 40 F but the hive is now heated to 70 F...


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## beeware10

who made the chart? university? student? theory?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Its not obvious which chart _beeware10 _is referencing, but my guess is that he is referring to the one shown in post #11 regarding calorie consumption vs. temperature. The source of that chart appears to be:

http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/winteringpdf.pdf
(right side of page 1)

That chart is credited to :


> (Southwick 1982, redrawn from Seeley).


.


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## beeware10

thanks graham I didn't realize the chart was on two different threads. was not paying attention and thought I was on the other one .lol


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