# Cut Out - Combine



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I did a cut out over the weekend ... THAT was fun!

The hive was huge, I'm betting I took 8 lbs of bees maybe? The issue now is I strongly suspect I did not get the queen. When I opened the hive yesterday (second day) I was greeted with a roar that I'm pretty sure is that queenless roar.

So, my plan is to drop a pheromone strip in there to keep them somewhat happy-ish as I prepare for a combine. Because this is a MONSTER hive, I think I need to split it up between two smaller hives I have that need some help anyway.

*Problem #1:* My hives are 8-frames but these are sitting in 10-frame boxes. 

*Thoughts on this problem:* Right now they are in 10 frames of transferred brood comb on the bottom box, and 8 frames of blank foundation up top with a frame feeder to give them some room. Now had I planned to use them as combines, I would have put 5 frames of comb in each box. Didn't do that. Lesson learned.

*Possible Solution: * When I go in there to add a queen pheromone strip, maybe I can move some frames up and have 5 over 5 comb in the center. I'll use the opportunity to put another feeder in the bottom box and let them sit a day to calm down.

That seem reasonable?

*Problem #2: * They are in 10-frame boxes and my established hives are 8-frame. 

*Thoughts on this problem: * I have one "adapter" board. I can make a second and use those, and put a 10-frame on each of the two hives I want to build up. That seems sub-optimal, especially given I'll want to get them to 8-frames next year.

*Possible Solution:* If I have to move frames around to split the brood and add a pheromone strip, I might as well put them in 8-frame boxes. The worst thing that happens is they abscond, I have nothing but time invested in these.

*Problem #3:* Probably not a problem - this was a feral colony for at least three years, so they will get OAV before they get combined.
*
Problem #4: * As I said this colony is huge. I may be adding as much as 3# of bees each to a couple of small splits. Y'all see any issues with that?


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

If you are not positive that you do not have a queen, I would not use QMP.

I feel it is likely too late to make a queen of any quality.

Verify first that you are queenless. That is the only reason to do anything.
If they are queenrite, feed them up and let it ride.
Put a queen excluder over an 8 frame box with and empty box on top of the excluder to act as a funnel.
Shake the bees into the 8 frame, the excluder will show you the queen if she is there?

This will both show the queen and solve the transfer to 8 issue.

Don't give them too much extra space, they don't need any more than an empty frame or two.

Larger cut outs give the queen too much time to run and hide.
My last cut out when bad this way, as I cut the comb up to one corner I chased her into the corner and lost her.

I noticed that Randy when starting a cutout mentioned anticipating the queen running and would create barriers or separation so the queen cant sneak away.
I will pay particular attention to that bit of planning in the future.

Another thing is on a cut out the queen is too fat to fly, I have often found her on the floor or trying to crawl back up to the nest while cutting.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I thought about the shake-through. My challenge there is that the comb I tied into the frames will still be very fragile. I can bump-brush I guess.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

With a roar day or 2 later, they are queenless. I would just split them up into 8 frame boxes now, put excluder on top, put the weaker queen right hives over the excluders, then remove excluders after a week. EZPZ, don't make it harder than it needs to be. It should give you 2 stronger hives heading into winter.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Thanks, Ray.

I was thinking the combine over the top of the existing hives to prevent the move effect from disorienting them. Would you put the two split boxes on the stands for the original hives? Two hives are next to each other facing either direction, the cut out is approximately 15 feet away.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Lee Bussy said:


> *Problem #3:* Probably not a problem - this was a feral colony for at least three years, so they will get OAV before they get combined.


Good ideal, in case your bees can't handle there mites🤣


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Lee if you have a weak/Nuc just combine it into the top where the feeded is removing 5 or 6 frames so it fits, feed untill they have enough for winter.
or
split the cutout into 2 5 frame units, center each unit in an 8F box.
place one under the 2 hives you have with the most stores, feed if needed.

bees and comb IMO go under this time of year.

GG


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Some do it one way, others do it another. I put the queen right over excluder on top of the queenlees in the queenless hives locations. I've tried several ways and this way I do it now has always had greater success than any other way.

Bees store honey up. Not a huge reason for bees below to go up thru excluder otherwise. Queen right bees have to go down to forage, they mingle the queen pheromone down below. Queen on top is better protected. Queen right foragers from the old locations will better seek out their queen on return to the new location. Moving the queenless hives to the queen right location causes more fighting in my experiences.

Choose your poison, since they roaring they want a queen badly, anyway you do it should work.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

That makes sense - I've been feeding both but the previous hive has more stores by a bit. Up it is.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

RayMarler said:


> I put the queen right over excluder on top of the queenlees in the queenless hives locations.


No paper?


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

I think queen right trumps hive rights.

Queen right over queen-less, in the queen-less location.
As Ray said,
In this situation I believe the queen pheromones would be best accepted by the queen-less colony as the foragers from the queen right colony move down and out.
They want a queen...
The guard bees would be watching for incoming not outgoing?
By the time the foragers return the guards should have gotten the memo?


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Ray's method was unexpected. The queenright hive would loose foragers. They would eventually go to hives near the original spot. I thought the hive that has to accept a new queen should have fewer foragers. It might be best to move the small hive to the big one because it's less work.

If leaving the queenright hive, you can protect it from queenless foragers by eliminating the bottom entrance, making it small, or adding a robber screen to it. The top entrance would probably be the biggest one for a while. You might want to switch to a top only entrance for winter. That should cover Ray's concerns.

I had a queenless hive. I put 2 of its boxes on a queenright hive with an excluder, probably paper, and queen cell. I got a good queen from that.

I don't see the reason for an excluder for you. It makes sense if you don't know if it's queenless. Then you have to check for eggs.

With brood, it's hard to make only oxalic effective.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

No paper. The excluder slows them down enough. Do it ASAP. The longer you wait, the more chance of problems. The longer they are queenless the more morale decay in the queenless hive and the less chance of them able to join successfully. Also, if there's any egg or young enough larva the more chance they'll raise their own and reject the join, but that is not your problem this time since they are roaring.
This method works for LW hives also.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Gonna happen today - I ran out of time yesterday.

Thanks again Ray!


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Lee Bussy said:


> Gonna happen today - I ran out of time yesterday.
> 
> Thanks again Ray!


Please; Let us know how it turned out. 

With winter approaching we all need some dramas to reflect on besides war, elections and general global mayhem. 

This is a great topic for new beekeepers and old!


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Everyone likes pics - here is the carnage after the cut-out:










They unfortunately didn’t cluster in the box overnight, they really made me work for it.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

I sure hope you went through All the combs and made sure there were no eggs BEFORE you combine.
Being a new Beek you may not know for sure the "roar" sound well.
Mine sound like a roar when I take any frame out to look at.
Look again before combining.

The pic you have is hard to tell but I think I see one fanning. They may not all ot in the box overnight for a number of reasons.... Like the fact that there was not enough room for them all. But if the majority of them were in then I think you got the queen... otherwise they would have a bigger ball where the queen was.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I appreciate the caution. I thought I heard a roar last year but it ended up being as you describe. This though …. It was quite different. It was also a tough cut-out so I am not surprised.

I’ll look for eggs but I would not expect to see a queen laying right away after that.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Lee Bussy said:


> It was also a tough cut-out so I am not surprised. I’ll look for eggs but I would not expect to see a queen laying right away after that.


Did you go back to the cutout sight/cavity and look for leftover/cluster of bees? Timing of her laying again would be questionable, but if you cutout eggs and larvae of the right age, and you didn't get the queen, they would have started emergency cells, so look for those before doing the extra work?


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

If there is brood and a queen in that box they will figure it out.

I don't have the patience for that, I strong arm them.
I built a bee vac and have zero issues containing and moving bees.
I vac them right into the box and frames they will/can live in.
I can leave them in the vac (for a day or more if needed).
I can feed them in the vac. I usually put a frame with some honey in it.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> Did you go back to the cutout sight/cavity and look for leftover/cluster of bees? Timing of her laying again would be questionable, but if you cutout eggs and larvae of the right age, and you didn't get the queen, they would have started emergency cells, so look for those before doing the extra work?


I did, there was no queen there but a good amount of workers. There were no eggs/larvae in this next of any appreciable quantity, it looked like they were full-on Fall mode. I can't imagine there's any hope of a new queen mating as the drones have been evicted now for a few weeks.

The combines are done, the bees are not happy but seem to be orienting. We'll see.



JustBees said:


> If there is brood and a queen in that box they will figure it out.


That's sort of what I figure as well. I'd prefer to keep the genetics of the Russian queens they will be joining, but if they decide not to do that for whatever reason, I'll figure it out.


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## mobe_45 (Mar 14, 2015)

Take a frame of eggs/brood and place it in the cutout.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

mobe_45 said:


> Take a frame of eggs/brood and place it in the cutout.


I appreciate you sharing your experience. I'm not sure you may have read where I shared the general state of the hives here, and the chances for successful mating. The season is over here - there are no likely opportunities for allowing a hive to rear its own queen at this time of year unfortunately.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Right, if they are not queenright this late in the season you would need a mated queen and still might not make it.

I'll bust out the old saw here,
Feed the strong, cull the weak.
If they are not sick boost the strong.

There is no loss if you combine before they dwindle or go LW.
Save the comb for next year at least.

I see guys walk away in disgust from failed colonies and give the valuable comb to the moth and beetle.
There is always something to harvest (a gain) wax, honey, or comb.
If nothing else there is knowledge to gain from studying the remains.
If the moth or beetle has their way, you have a bunch of messed up gear.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

They are split in two and combined to two smaller hives (with feed.) I've done what I can, it's up to them and the weather now.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

I think that is best as you get a more balanced age of bees in the colony this way. 
If those colonies are healthy they should thrive.

When you "make up" colonies it often takes a while for hive business to normalize due to the imbalance of the age of bees populating the colony.
This way you are boosting an already organized colony.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

So Lee,
How does the activity at each hive look now at the entrances?


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

RayMarler said:


> How does the activity at each hive look now at the entrances?


I'll head over there today when it warms up. I need to put mouseguards on there but I have been delaying that while they settle down.

They were combined on Tuesday, on Wednesday they were still pretty defensive in the area so I let them be. Today would be the third day - temps are 58 right now expected to be 81 so I'll make sure to top off the feeder.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Okay, here's a brief vid:






It looks like there's still a little tugging and brawling on the landing board, not too bad. Temps here are right at 72 F.

I'm thinking I'll stuff a reducer in there this afternoon as I feed them a little more. i won;t put the mouse guards on there yet as they have a row of 3/8" holes that might be harder to guard.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

That entrance is way too big, a robber invite! Bees look fine.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

JustBees said:


> That entrance is way too big, a robber invite! Bees look fine.


Like I said - it's been reduced. They seem to be in pretty good shape but seem to be ignoring the feeder on top. If they were bringing in nectar from somewhere I'd not be so concerned. It could be that they are just gathering propolis to finish the renovations from the cut-out. No piles of dead bees though, so they seem to be getting along.

I'll get back in there on Tuesday to remove the excluder and see how things are going.


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