# An early look at my natural cell hives management (1/2 whisky barrel)



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Although the comb is built on top bars that are removable, I chose not to disturb them for inspection since it would be necessary for some attached comb to be removed. 
I took photos of the bees with my super macro setting and inspected them on a regular basis. Here are two full sized photos taken the day before treatment was applied.

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/tweety4926/2015 bees/PA020136_zps2biqkctr.jpg










Now if this colony had grown at a normal rate, I probably would have not treated or waited until winter to do the OAV treatment. Bees look good here, but mites are tricky. It may be able to go a year or two in the future without treatment now that it's cleaned up. It just depends on circumstances. 
My bees seem to handle mites well on their own for extended periods of time, but eventually when a colony gets older or stressed with seasonal extremes, I sometimes need to give them a helping hand to clean them up and get them back on track.

My last unseasonably warm winter and super early brood rearing without really giving the bees a brood break, was a big factor in my treatment methods this year. Every season is different. Every season I adjust my management to reflect the needs of my colonies. 
I broke up quite a few of my large, older colonies into single deeps and ran a couple rounds of virgin queens through them, then combined them in fall. It worked great in most cases. Only a few still needed treatment after that.

I should say, my bees are mostly Carniolan hybrids.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Have enjoyed watching it grow on Facebook.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Great closeups (all are great actually)! I like the way you documented the growth of the comb also.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Have you had an opportunity to measure the cells to determine what size they are drawing out.... naturally.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Have you had an opportunity to measure the cells to determine what size they are drawing out.... naturally.


I have not. Not yet. I will eventually.
The some of face of the comb in front was what remained of a tiny swarm I put in there last year that didn't take. They did continue to extend it. I can take a photo with a tape measure of what they did draw themselves and post it.

When they draw out the new top bars next spring, I'll measure then too.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I love the Whisky Barrel OB hive by the way.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It may be natural, but it my not be SC. A ruler will let you know.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

It works really well.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Barry said:


> It may be natural, but it my not be SC. A ruler will let you know.


Yeah, there's no attempt at regression there, it's just natural comb.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

I run all natural cell and really like it a lot. Mine draw cells from 5.1 to 4.7. They seem to draw the smaller cells in the spring for the most part.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Slow Drone said:


> Mine draw cells from 5.1 to 4.7.


When I ran natural, the bees drew cells 5.7 mm on average

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?263558-Natural-Cell-vs-Small-Cell

Your mileage may vary.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

My colonies from bee tree swarms seemed to be about 5.3-4 on average for worker cells. Foundationless. 

Then if you average in the amount of drone comb they build the average goes wayyy waaaaaay up.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Slow Drone said:


> I run all natural cell and really like it a lot. Mine draw cells from 5.1 to 4.7. They seem to draw the smaller cells in the spring for the most part.


Same here. G


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

That barrel hive is freaking cool! :thumbsup:


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Full sized pics for inspection purposes

Looks like roughly 3/16ths, although these cells are not occupied on the face and are drawn out deeper than normal broodnest cells.










According to this conversion chart, that makes them roughly 4.76 mm

http://mdmetric.com/tech/cvtchtfdm.htm

(I say roughly because several cells should be measured) I'll get a metric metal ruler asap and take a new photo.

Mite drop after 1 week, now getting younger, smaller mites as brood hatches.










I'm curious. 
I would like to know how many people would have left this hive alone based on how it 'looked' before treatment, and how many people would have treated it? 
Can we set up a poll so answers would be confidential? 

After seeing the results of this colonies treatment, are you now reevaluating your own management? (Especially beginner beekeepers)

I know the history behind my colonies. I know what to look for and usually how to handle them based on their performance & other observations.

If you bought new bees this spring and know nothing about their previous treatment (s) genetics or exposures and are trying to go treatment free cold turkey, Well. Just sayin' you might choose carefully. In my opinion, easing into treatment free status with management, time for transition and choices based on knowledge is a much better idea that the cold turkey approach.

I just know after a few years of reading Beesource, the month of November comes around and the predictable, horrified posts 'MY BEES ARE DEAD!" are inevitable. I just don't want that to be you.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Using the photo with the tape measure, if we start at the 1.5" mark on the tape and count to the right over 10 cells, we end up at the 3.25" mark. That is 1.75" over 10 cells = 44.45 mm, or 4.45 mm per cell.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks Rader  I figured someone could scrutinize it accurately for me.

My bees are absolutely NOT regressed though. I go for big and fat when it comes to queens. Especially with the older queens that have matured and become monsters. They still lay up everything with no problems though. They may not go deep, but the nurse bees take care of egg placement. I've seen a queen walk by a cell without stopping and dump an egg. Worker right behind her placing the egg in the cell. Although I assume it was because I interrupted her buy the intrusion and it is not the norm. But it showed me it _is_ possible.





























I see many queens almost up to their thorax in a cell at times. Is that necessary? Apparently not.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

The short edge of a business card -- 5.08 CM makes a great over//under gauge for cell sizes.

The pix has high parallax distorting cell sizes away from the central focus. Suffice to say, the cell sizing is at the small end of the range. According to the SC advocates, this comb should not support Varroa in hive-killing density.
My measures are shown below.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Thanks JW very interesting.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Those measurements seem pretty small.

How's this? Card is tight against cells.










More views in different places:



















After looking at the conversion chart, looks like they are roughly 5.1 to me. (10 cells in a 2" area =5.08)

In comparison, below is a rite cell foundation drawn out. Rite cell is 5.4 (9 1/2 cells in a 2" area)










Also, that mite drop was not cleaned off, it is the entire weeks drop.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Much better. I would be extremely surprised if you had cells that small in your hive.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Lauri said:


> Also, that mite drop was not cleaned off, it is the entire weeks drop.


Lauri, I don't know much....but I know my 1 day drops were WAY more mites than the one you posted!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

thehackleguy said:


> Lauri, I don't know much....but I know my 1 day drops were WAY more mites than the one you posted!


I'd love to see that drop be the extent of it. We'll see in the next couple weeks what it amounts to.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Very cool. Thanks for posting the pictures.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> According to this conversion chart, that makes them roughly 4.76 mm


I get 4.46 base on 5.7 cells per inch.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Using the photo with the tape measure, if we start at the 1.5" mark on the tape and count to the right over 10 cells, we end up at the 3.25" mark. That is 1.75" over 10 cells = 44.45 mm, or 4.45 mm per cell.


I see roughly the same. Starting at the 1 9/16" mark and count over 10 cells to the 3 5/16" mark. Gives a total of 1 3/4" or 1.75" as Rader states. Looks great to me.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Like I said, this is the center of the comb on the face, which they avoid and is not filled or occupied. Cells are deeper than normal brood nest cells would be. But I'm not going to go digging deep into it this time of year just to measure cell size. Next season, when they start drawing out those new top bars, I will get more cell sizes for those that want to know.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Maybe Lauri's bees are super regressed and they're building USC (Ultra Small Cell). The mites can't even squeeze into the cell on those things!


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Lauri said:


> Like I said, this is the center of the comb on the face, which they avoid and is not filled or occupied. Cells are deeper than normal brood nest cells would be. But I'm not going to go digging deep into it this time of year just to measure cell size. Next season, when they start drawing out those new top bars, I will get more cell sizes for those that want to know.


Would appreciate that Lauri. I would be interested to see what cell size they build in the spring. Update us when you do please.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Because natural cell is all different size the only accurate way of averaging is to pick out an area say 1/3 the size of the frame and count the cells and divide. Then match it up to what the area would be for a specific cell size. There are vision systems that can do this in a blink of an eye.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I always find it hard to argue over 2/10ths of a millimeter...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

2/10th? The min measurement was 4.5 and the max was 5.1. That is why I say you have to select an area either a circle or a rectangle and average the cell sizes. Natural cell is not consistent like foundation is.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Took a look tonight and noticed the sheet with dropped mites looked like it had a lot less mites, even though I have not cleaned it off. As I watched, the bees were acting a little aggressive or excitable towards the fallen mites. Check it out. Watch it a couple times. 
The bee on the left early on appears to grab a mite and eat it? Not sure about where the mite went. 
Good housekeeping or something more? I think I like it.

https://youtu.be/ZwF6N7v4TWE

It's dark out now, but I'll take a longer video tomorrow if I can catch them doing the same thing.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Nice. They are making sure those little mites aren't kicking! :applause: G


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Very cool Hive Lauri!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

A little update in the end of the second week of treatment & observation.

Just before I observed the mite seeking & removal behavior, I had placed the white collection sheet above 2 mason jar feeders, which placed the dropped mites very close to the colony & broodnest.

It was at this time I took the video as shown above. After a few days, It was hard to tell if this colony actually needed to be treated or not. In the beginning of the second week of an Apivar treatment, with the sheet close to the colony, there were no dropped mites on the white paper, giving it an illusion of a very light load. The bees have removed almost all the mites & most of the debris completely. 










2 days ago, when they were done with the syrup, I lowered the white collection sheet to the bottom of the barrel. This morning, there was again a few mites & debris on the sheet with no bees checking/removing them. 

Is the proximity to the brood nest a factor in the bees aggressive behavior towards dislodged mites? Is fallen mite accessibility & a solid bottom board close to brood nest something to consider when one is trying to take advantage of this trait? 

Is the age of the bees that exhibit this trait a factor? That would explain the fact this colony had _some_ mites if not all bees perform this task. It would explain limited mite control without the extreme uncapping of some VSH behavior so the colony could still grow & perform.

This sort of this may be going on in YOUR hives right now. Without being able to observe like this, how would you know?

I cleaned off the sheet and placed in back close to the colony this morning. I had planned to fill in the bottom empty space with straw or leaves for over wintering, but when it came right down to it, thought better of making a mess. Folded burlap sacks should do it. I'll check daily for mite drop and removal and see if they go back to that seeking/biting behavior.










Another note I didn't mention in my OP. I have had bees on frames and made them build from the top down. Compared to colonies that build upwards, the progress and growth was far slower. I did take that into consideration about this colonies slower growth before treating. 

Here a few photos of an experimental nuc from 2012:










Downward growth:




















Hopefully, at the end of this OB colonies observation, we will all know if it indeed needed treatment or not, what was normal for this situation and whether the next time I can feel comfortable leaving it TF for a longer period of time. I think it is already obvious there would have been no negative effects to leave this colony until it had a wintertime broodless period for an OAV treatment. In the past, I have left colonies like this TF for a few years, noting a cleansing late fall/ early winter mite drop, with excellent overwintering success and good spring growth and health. 

Here's the collected colony that was the inspiration for the nuc on half sized frames shown above in a wood duck style box:










Notice the vegetation debris in the bottom of the box. A little insulation, a few other creatures. A Little ecosystem. 

Collection of the wild comb and secured in standard frames. 










Now who can guess my inspiration for the frames with half sheets of foundation in the center? Here's that same frame after they got established and had a chance to work it:










I thought that was a pretty darn good idea.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> I cleaned off the sheet and placed in back close to the colony this morning.


If the mite is dead that is one thing but if the mite was knocked off and alive it can jump back on the bees with the sheet so close.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Acebird said:


> If the mite is dead that is one thing but if the mite was knocked off and alive it can jump back on the bees with the sheet so close.


It's the mites that are still alive that the bees are going after aggressively. They pretty much ignore the dead mites.

I like the fact they recognize live mites as a threat.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> It's the mites that are still alive that the bees are going after aggressively.


That is wonderful so why would you treat them? It sounds like they know what to do. Had the paper tray not been there the mites couldn't get back into the colony. Am I learning something here or not?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> I like the fact they recognize live mites as a threat.


If you let the ones that don't die off maybe you wouldn't have to treat.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Update on this hive
Here's how it looked 10-2-15. That's a half gallon mason jar for size reference:










And 12-2-15 after 2 weeks with low temps in the teens and 20's



















You can see below, on the top left, the 2" side entrance:










You can see they apparently have moved away from the large 2" side entrance during that cold spell. I left the top and bottom 3" screened ventilation holes, but taped off much of the entrance.




























It still kills me they have so many empty cells in the comb, but the fact I'm coming to realize is, these bees on natural comb in an 'open air' setting just are not going to behave or fill comb the same way as a colony in a lang box. The barrel is pretty heavy, but I'm not sure where they have all that weight.

I am tempted to throw a blanket over the whisky barrel the next time we get a bitter snap, but then I wouldn't be pushing them, would I. 
I am also tempted to hang a fat frame of honey in front of the comb, but again, it would be an aid I want to avoid for as long as possible to see just how they winter on their own.

At 30 degrees, the colony was tightly clustered, but I could see several bees moseying around on the cluster in a relaxed, comfortable manor. 

If they overwinter and build again well next year-filling most of the whisky barrel with comb, we'll have a really good colony to observe. Let's hope they make it. In this case it is apparent, the colony is only heating the cluster, not the hive as it is wide open and not insulated. Just dry and protected from wind (Now with the side entrance closed down)


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Thanks for the update Lauri! Very nice I hope to see an update this coming spring.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's one more photo at 30 degrees, after a night in the 20's. Upper left glass frosted area is ice on the _Inside_. That is an eastern exposure.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I couldn't stand it. The bees just looked like they had nothing to live on. 

Had to throw them a bone.opcorn:

These are the centers of a partial foundation (Less) frame after I cut out the honey comb from each side. I had stored many of these to give to nucs this spring. I just popped out the center honey off the frame, drilled two holes for the wire hooks and hung it from the top bar.

After a week of temps in the teens, Temp was just below 40 degrees here. They were clustered but moving pretty freely. 

They thought this treat was a pretty good idea! It cracks me up when they get excited.
Each chunk was about 4 1/2 #














































It was about 40 degrees here. Bees clustered but moving freely & perky. Look good, clean and healthy. No lifeless, dull or depressed bees in sight.

full sized pics for inspection

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...8-b529-435e-ab62-a9dbaa7f469e_zpsvf6xyzvy.jpg

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/tweety4926/tweety4926015/P1050100_zpszkpt9jen.jpg


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

After 5 days. About 45 degrees











Below: 
Looks like they consumed their mid winter snack. I bet the back side of that honey frame is picked pretty clean.
Here's how those honey chunks looked after 9 days. About 33 degrees here.
I may switch the blocks down the road if I think it is necessary. Or add another frameless honey filled foundation in front. I have room for one more top bar.

Weird colony. But it's enjoyable to have something to fool with during the winter months. Certainly any colony I have forced to grow downward has not had near the growth as a colony that is allowed to expand upward as in standard stackable Langstroths.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Very cool, thanks for posting. Definitely outside the box thinking in multiple ways, pun somewhat intended.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Thanks for the update Lauri! Way cool and much appreciated!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Hey, you're supposed to be feeding them the corn dust to make some whiskey, not honey to make meade in that barrel.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Interesting that they are consuming from the top down not the bottom up.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

OK, Don't laugh.
Here's a quick peek at the next generation natural comb observation hive. It's everything the whisky barrel ain't. Superable with standard frames and more manageable.

It's a monsta. 
Looks more like a TV from the 70's in a bad cabinet. inch: But just wait until it's full of bees.

I'm thinking a centered full deep with two half deeps on each end would improve the system. Needs flashing over the access door and something to block the light (And insulate the door in winter) but is basically done.

Bottom cabinet is made out of 1 1/2" salvaged cedar decking material. Standard 10 frame equipment on top.



















































































Call me crazy.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

You can do this with 2 deeps with custom top bars & let the comb extend below. But if you crowd them, they'll attach to the side of the box's. With plenty of room the frames stay removable.
You can use full sheets of foundation or strips if you want more natural sized comb on the entire length.














































Bottom box can hold a couple thin plywood insets to help keep comb from attaching. These are just cut tight and set in place, not permanent.



















You could just put in standard frames and an empty bottom box and let them run wild. 
You could get this:










or you could get this:










One of the reason's for the clear access door on the OB hive. I can keep my eye on their comb building and intervene before they make a mess.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> Call me crazy.


You are not crazy Lauri you are just bored with the winter months and fill the gap with working with wood. My wife suffers from a similar condition. I call it dirt dermis withdrawal. Unfortunately she is useless in the shop and has never used a tool for what it was intended. This year she is motivate with her sights on FL filling what I use to call a shop with her projects to unload the 5 storage bins of crap some people call treasure.
I like the finish you always put on your hives. I got the feeling they would be placed in your living room. Maybe why they are observation hives.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Occasionally there is talk about using jumbo frames. But those really are not much bigger than deeps. 

Double deep comb is about 18" long. 18" of uninterrupted laying.
The cedar hive in the above post could house 27" comb.


Just sounds interesting. It should at least make for some good observations and photos.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Lauri said:


> I'm thinking a centered full deep with two half deeps on each end would improve the system.


This is what I meant by that:


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Dang it you have inspired me to make a bottomless TBH I think I will make mine closer to the dimensions of a tree as in long and narrow, I know the combs would be a pain if I ever needed to remove them but I could be done enough to make them legal certainly wouldn't be convenient


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri, does your husband appreciate what you create? You are not motivated by money, that I know, because you could easily be building hand made furniture and making thousands instead of banging out beehives. Where did this love of making wood chips come from in your family tree? If we can have a peak into your genetic makeup. I know your husband likes to fish but he wasn't just playing around when he snagged you. He was using his best lure.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I've never seen a hive design quite like this, but I think it has possibilities. It's obviously a novelty, but will long uninterrupted natural comb have actual benefits for the colony? 

Maybe. Time will tell.

I like the 1 1/2" thick bottom units though. But they have to be compatible with standard equipment.

This double queen hive is rocking. Photo from today:

Info on this hive unit is on this thread, starts on post # 53
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?306234-Running-two-queen-colonies/page4


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thank you Brian, That's very kind of you to say.


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