# Ordered a Breeder Q today



## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

After hearing John Harbo talk about the VSH trait, I decided that it was worth the $145 (includes shipping). I decided to get the Carni / VSH. Decided to have her shipped first week in May. By then I am thinking that the Queens should be pretty good. And that will be soon enough for me to start grafting. 

http://members.aol.com/queenb95/catalog.html#anchor2391365


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Sounds like there will be some good reading on the forum next summer then
Hope it works out for you....personnally I am a skeptic.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

bluegrass said:


> Sounds like there will be some good reading on the forum next summer then
> Hope it works out for you....personnally I am a skeptic.


A skeptic of what?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*skeptic of.*

1. Varroa sensitive hygene is an effective control of mites.
2. That breeding can select for it.
3. That in 2 years they could have isolated the correct genes, and developed a selective breeding program.
4. That a breeder queen can be purchased and the trait not lost in one generation.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> 1. Varroa sensitive hygene is an effective control of mites.
> 2. That breeding can select for it.
> 3. That in 2 years they could have isolated the correct genes, and developed a selective breeding program.
> 4. That a breeder queen can be purchased and the trait not lost in one generation.


1) It's been proven to work, and is as good as anything else. But it does work better for some, just like anything else out there. And if combined with the right IPM practices, it can only help.

2) Breeding has been used for years to select for specfic traits, most notabley in dairy cows, so why would this be hard to believe?

3)Some breeders, such as Steve Tabar have been working on this approach for decades, so it would not be difficult to develop a program for this in that amount of time, seeings as all the hard work has been done.

4) Could happen.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

The heritablity of hygienic behavior is very well documented. Look at Dr Spivacs work. It used to be that 48 hours for clean out on the freeze killed brood assay was acceptable, now the bench mark has been raised to 24 hours for clean out. Over time these traits can be selected for and their frequency amplified in honeybee populations.


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

I have a VSH queen due in April from Glenn's (my first BQ). Maybe we can compare notes all summer.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I was not attempting to turn this thread into a debate. 
I am interested in hearing what Berkey's experiences are with this new breeder queen and subsequent queens.
Does anybody know if the trait is dominant or recessive? The bottom line is that if a breeder had enough experience in bee genetics to select for this trait and used artificial insemination to mate the breeder queens to one drone than the offspring would have the trait. But if the queens daughters are mated through mating flight than the # greatly decreases as she has mated with multiple drones and few or none of the drones have the trait, leaving no trait to be passed on.

If the gene is recessive than the only hive that will have the trait is the breeder colony and the subsequent queens would not have that trait. 

My main point is that if a vsh queen is purchased from one of the bee labs that maybe there is enough expertise and control to genetically breed for this trait, but a bee breeder does not have the genetic background or proper controls to do so.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> I was not attempting to turn this thread into a debate.
> I am interested in hearing what Berkey's experiences are with this new breeder queen and subsequent queens.
> Does anybody know if the trait is dominant or recessive? The bottom line is that if a breeder had enough experience in bee genetics to select for this trait and used artificial insemination to mate the breeder queens, then yes the breeder queen and her offspring would have the trait. However if the trait is dominant and the breeder queens daughters were artificially inseminated than their offspring would have a 50/50 chance of having the trait. But if the queens daughters are mated through mating flight than only 25% of the overall offspring would have the trait.
> 
> ...


Depends on the type of queen you buy. If it is (as an example) a Russian x vsh, yes, you would only get 1/2 the vsh traits in the resulting daughter queens. Or, you can buy a vsh x Russian queen, in which you would still only have half the vsh in resulting daughter queens, but, you would have full vsh traits in the drones from this queen.

So if you wanted to keep the vsh trait intact in future daughter queens, you would need both types of queens, one to graft from, (Russian x vsh),and one to provide drones, (vsh x Russian), for open mating.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Its hard to take my knowlege of genetics and work the parthenogenesis/clone factor of the drones into the equation

My feeling is that diversity is good. The hive is ment to be diverse and that is why queens naturally mate with so many drones. If we are inseminating queens to one drone or only a couple of like drones we are removing the diversity of the hive and breeding for future disaster.

Over the last few decades many new challanges have presented themselves to beekeepers and the honeybee. So what happens when the next disease presents its self and we have bred all the diversity out of the hive and instead of loosing 20% of the hives population, and the fittest survive, we loose 100% and the honey bee goes extinct?


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

That's why I will continue to have my mutt italian line.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

In our ninth year with VSH/SMR stock from Harbo and Tom Glenn, some stock from
the HIP project (some of which had early Harbo SMR traits) and Minn Hygienic stock. 
Have not treated any colonies we work with for varroa or treacheal mites.
I'll let you know how things look this Spring, but I'm hoping for a great
Winter survival percentage and looking forward to testing some new crosses
we made this year (2007 season) in collaboration with other like-minded breeders.

We use II to make crosses. These we use as breeders and often open mate them. 

So far, so good. Sure we lose colonies but we're
losing far less than early-on. We strive to keep the population diverse.
We look at VSH/SMR traits and hygienic traits separately, testing for VM mite
load and hygienic behavior in two different assays.

I think the SMR/VSH traits are passed on in a more complex way than simple
dominance/recessive. However, interesting enough one's bees can have 
too MUCH VSH/SMR and these colonies don't produce well--they remove healthy brood! 
A blend of VSH/SMR seems the best.

Tom Glen has done an extremely nice job on his web site 
explaining VSH/SMR and many other breeding related topics.

Here's the link: http://members.aol.com/queenb95/

Here's the HIP project link: http://griffes.tripod.com/HIP1.html

VSH/SMR links:
http://search.usda.gov/search?q=vsh...ient=usda&lr=&proxystylesheet=ARS&oe=&x=0&y=0

Others breed using stock with VSH/SMR and have had good success. If you can
afford to spring for a breeder with VSH/SMR, go for it! Just make sure she
can't leave in a swarm... 

Adam Finkelstein
[email protected]


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I run some local mutts too.....and now some of MB's mutts

I have seen what Glenn has on their site and it is a nice site, but if you pay attention to the terminology it reads like an infomercial with lots of broad statements.* "The mechanism of resistance against this mite is as yet unknown*, but it does clearly exist.*Recent evidence suggests* that grooming behavior as the mites migrate from one bee to another may be a means of control.*Fortunately this trait appears to be controlled by dominant gene(s)*"

This statement is misleading " Unlike most animals, each one of a drone's 10 million sperm are identical clones. Sister bees with the same father share 75% of their genes. This is far more than the 50% found in other species." 

75% seems like a great number, but they left out that part about hive diversity. If the queen is mated by 20 drones only 75% of five bees in every 100 has the desired genetic mutation.

Maybe I am thinking about breeder hive in the wrong light.
If you want this trait you need to set up the hive and use it to produce drones, not queens. The drones are genetically identical to the hygienic queen so if you have them around to open mate with queens reared off of other hives you will be introducing a small percent of hygenic workers into every hive within a short period of time.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Since isolated mating yards are a hard thing to achieve, the next best thing is to start off with a queen that has the traits thast you are looking for. A breeder queen gets that ball rolling. But hopefully before you have spent the money for a breeder queen, it might be worth to saturate your area with bees that have the chararcteristics that you are looking for. Even saturation does not guaranetee success.

The point is, is that the breeder queen wil lactually get the ball rolling. The rest is up to the beekeer at hand and of course... gotta have some luck!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Marla Spivak came to Vermont a couple years ago. Got to talk to her about the VSH trait. She found that VSH x VSH bees weren't very good bees. While they did remove mite infested pupae, they had too many other bad traits to be considered as production stock.
But, when crossed with her hygienic stock, and having as little as 30% VSH, they were good bees and the VSH trait was still strong. 
So, rather than trying to replace your entire stock with VSH bees, you should plan on incorporating the VSH bees into your stock, to preserve the best traits that you have in your own bees. 

Also, I've been told by Suki Glenn among others, that by using a VSH virgin, mated to a Carniolan drone (VSH x Carni) for your breeder, you will enhanse the VSH trait....more than by having a Carniolan virgin mated to a VSH drone (Carni x VSH).


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

I have a pair of those queens out back here that I got earlier this year. Both have some pretty hives. Love those black bees!

Didn't make any queens from either this year but have high hopes for spring!


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> So, rather than trying to replace your entire stock with VSH bees, you should plan on incorporating the VSH bees into your stock, to preserve the best traits that you have in your own bees.


If the trait is naturally occuring in some bees and not genetically identified isn't it pointless to introduce stock?
It occures naturally so the gene is going to be present anyway....in some bees. The only thing introduction will do is maybe increase the incidences of an already present mutation. 
Wow.....that statement just went in circles

Lets try this again!
If there is anybody on this forum with a dozen hives and has to treat all for mites raise your hand!
My point is that most of us have hives that are more resistant to mites than others.....so the resistance is present...why reintroduce it?


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Bluegrass - I agree with you that the trait can be found naturally in some bees. Heck I may have it already in my survivor colonies. But I figured that it would take me several years to get the VSH trait totally isolated and identified. And the traits my stock may have may be somewhat different than what Glen has. That is how I justified the price. Plus the labor of testing to id the trait. So a combination of time and labor justified it to me.

I plan to use my best mutt queens for the drones and the VSH/Carni queen for the Graft. To qualify as a drone mother you have to be gentle, good honey production, and survived winters with no treatment other than one OA vapor in the fall. 

John Bee - yes it will be fun to compare notes! I can't wait til spring!

It seems that the VSH trait only has to be in either the Q or the Drone to be expressed, but it is too complex to say it is a dominant trait (I don't fully understand that statement.) WHereas the Minn. Hygenic must be in both. As I understand it they are different traits.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

is vsh the same thing as smr? 
"The SMR trait explained by hygienic behavior of adult bees - We bred varroa resistant honey bees by selecting colonies with low percentages of reproductive mites (Harbo & Harris, 2001, J Econ Entomol 94: 1319-1323)."
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=178712Our 
"approaches to this problem are as follows: 1. Continue work with suppressing mite reproduction, the suppressed mite reproduction (SMR) trait. Note: New knowledge of the details of this trait has resulted in renaming in 2005 as "varroa sensitive hygiene" (VSH)"
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/projects/projects.htm?ACCN_NO=407275&showpars=true&fy=2006
i'm sure this may have caused confusion with some beekeepers who had smr and wanted the "new" vsh queens and purchased them to only get a queen whose offspring exhibited the same behavior.
anyone can examine their own colonies for this behavior and choose which to graft from and which to mate with after they meet basic criteria. if they don't produce a surplus, lay large amounts of brood, or are temperamental you may not wish to pursue breeding these kind of bees. try a few different crosses and see which works the best. of course if you don't have the time to do this purchasing a queen from a reputable breeder of smr/vsh queens is the way to go. 
http://www.sare.org/publications/factsheet/0305_02.htm


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

> i'm sure this may have caused confusion with some beekeepers who had smr and wanted the "new" vsh queens and purchased them to only get a queen whose offspring exhibited the same behavior.
> 
> http://www.sare.org/publications/factsheet/0305_02.htm


I have read the USDA fact sheet in the past and it was actually just updated earlier this month. If you read through it you will note that they state that they have isolated two genes that they believe contribute, but there may be more.

That statement means that breeders are breeding for a trait entirely off of observable tests and not DNA panels, because they still do not know what to look for in the DNA.

So in observation of a select hive for traits they are veiwing the worker bee's behavior, not the queen or the drones. So a hive with the trait could have a queen without it and drones without it because that queen somehow got mated by several drones from a hive with the trait and its their DNA copy that is carrying the trait through the hive.
So now this hive is misidendified as having the trait and it is used to breed queens and the drones are used also for insemination to other queens and the trait is not even there.

This is what I mean about no control. They must have the gene isolated and a dna panel done on all hives to have enough control to breed for any trait. 

I know that my hypothisis is very basic and these breeders have been working with hygienics for a long time, but they had to start somewhere and with this observation method it would not take long to have many hives apearing to be hygienic and only the workers are. *"Fortunately this trait appears to be controlled by dominant gene"* yes that is lucky for them, because if it wan't they would need both parents to carry the trait through the hive and they would have alot fewer "breeder" hives to work with. Without DNA testing it could easily be that better than half their hives are traitless except in the workers.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>I know that my hypothisis is very basic and these breeders have been working with hygienics for a long time, but they had to start somewhere and with this observation method it would not take long to have many hives apearing to be hygienic and only the workers are.<

I guess I don't understand your point, Bluegrass. Not trying to disagree, only to understand. If we are selecting stock for increased honey production, we select those colonies that produce the most honey, while being fed the least amount of sugar. It is the worker bees that gather the honey, so it is the worker bees that have the trait. Queens and drones don't gather nectar. Likewise, the VSH trait is expressed by worker bees removing mite infested pupae. The queen and drones don't do the work. How would we select queens and drones with the VSH genes...other than to see what the progeny of their matings do?


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Brother Adam and Friedrich Ruttner, fairly well-known bee breeders, basically state the same thing about selection in bee breeding:

Breed from what does well and *discard all others*. 

You can cut and paste this concept into any 
number of characteristics your "ideal" bee colonies show. 
For example: health and diease tolerance. Using a gross level of selection, 
you breed from surviviour stock.
Chef said luck was involved too: he is so right! 
Selection is a numbers game. SO the larger your selection pool, 
the more chance you'll have of using queens/drones 
that will breed good colonies.

Before DNA was discovered, breeders were breeding. Using genetic tools at the molecular level is amazingly helpfull to the breeder, but *selection from a diverse population* and continued selection, using performance data, will produce favorable results.


Adam Finkelstein
[email protected]


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## mountainvalleybee (May 13, 2007)

*Mite Non-Tolerance Characteristics*

From My personal experience I like bees which either leave the pupae in the comb long enough for the Mites to die and then remove them, or and in conjunction remove the young just-hatched bees with mites adhering to them before they have the opportunity to cross over to other bees or crawl off. If they uncap the brood too quickly then the odds of the Mites transferring over to other bees or crawling off are much greater and then all the bees are doing is getting rid of the young mites I believe. The reason I say this is that when my bees started showing the recognized forms of VHB (Varroa Hygenic Behavior) early on you could tear into the cells of brood and mites would crawl out and also when they were at this stage of VHB you were much more likely to see mites crawling around on the combs, and brother but could they move fast. So I guess I am saying that I believe that bees selected purely for Brood Uncapping Behavior, if this is done too quickly the bees are not neccessarily eliminating the mites in the best way. If they die in the cells then they are no longer a problem, and if the bees remove the young bees with the mites on them if they manage to hatch, then the bees are getting rid of them at the most critical points.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

mountainvalleybee makes an excellent point that many others here (fill in a name) also practice in bee breeding: Observation. A million and one genetic rules and facts can guide your selection program, but seeing and experiencing colony behavior, really is important, coupled with performance (either yeild or build-up or whatever you want your bees to be good at doing).

Adam Finkelstein
[email protected]


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> >I know that my hypothisis is very basic and these breeders have been working with hygienics for a long time, but they had to start somewhere and with this observation method it would not take long to have many hives apearing to be hygienic and only the workers are.
> 
> I guess I don't understand your point, Bluegrass. Not trying to disagree, only to understand.


My point is that the workers get the trait from the queen or drones....the workers have nothing if the queen of the colony or the drones she mated with do not have the trait. 

So a queen can be selected as a breeder based on an observation of the workers. But the queen may not have the trait and her drones will not because they are a genetic copy of her. The trait is showing in the hive because the queen was mated to a drone that had it.

So the colony is now selected as a breeder and queens reared from it and sold. And the buyer just spent 100.00 on a 20.00 dollar queen because the daughter did not get the DNA from the right drone or she did and the recurrance of that gene just dropped by 50%. 

My point is without the gene(s) Identified and a dna panel done on all the breeder queens and drones the breeding program is a game of chance and the odds are against the buyer.

The absolute best that it can get is that the queens sold have 63% chance of having the gene because she got a copy from her mother and her father,(a double pair results in death of the offspring which is why the chance is better than 50/50, but less than 100%) But because the breeders think the gene is dominant they don't care about making sure that the gene is present in both parents so the chance of the gene being present in the queen bought is only 50%.

So 50 % of the queens that breeders are selling as VSH or any other hygienic are not.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

bluegrass said:


> So 50 % of the queens that breeders are selling as VSH or any other hygienic are not.


Bluegrass: I respectfully disagree. It may be lost in some percentage of the second generation, but should be expressed in the first generation of Q's raised from an II Q, unless I am misunderstanding the genetics. I think you may be right with respect to the general hygenic trait, but not VSH>


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Without an identified gene for the trait there is no way that they can guarantee that the queens they sell or breed have it. Its a 50/50 shot no matter how you look at it. I would contact them if I were you and ask how they identify the 50% of queens that do not have the trait, they are breeding them, there is no way around it. 
The way DNA copies is very consistant, like a train on rails.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Here is my understanding.
You start with a Q with VSH trait. Assuming she is not a VSH x VSH cross, she will still give her offspring at least one VSH gene.

So a Q in the next generation will have at least one VSH gene. Now she is open mated. Assume that none of the drones with whom she mates has the VSH trait.

About 50% of her daughters should still have the VSH trait. And because it is dominant, you will have half of the workers with the VSH gene. You don't have to have 100% of the workers with the trait.

So if you buy an open mated Q that is the daughter of a Q with the VSH trait, the hive headed by that Q should express the trait.

Also, according to Harbo there is a difference between testing for pure hygenic behavior, which is the brood freeze test referred to in the link above, and VSH, although M. Spivak did find that the VSH bees were hygenic. I can find the links to the papers if you want.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

bluegrass writes:
Maybe I am thinking about breeder hive in the wrong light.
If you want this trait you need to set up the hive and use it to produce drones, not queens. The drones are genetically identical to the hygienic queen so if you have them around to open mate with queens reared off of other hives you will be introducing a small percent of hygenic workers into every hive within a short period of time.

tecumseh replies:
not trying to put words into anyone's mouth but I think this is exactly what frank (WG Bee) has suggested in previous thread.... ie seclect your best hives for grafting and introduce the vsh trait from the drone side of the mating.

then bluegrass writes:
If the trait is naturally occuring in some bees and not genetically identified isn't it pointless to introduce stock?
It occures naturally so the gene is going to be present anyway....in some bees. The only thing introduction will do is maybe increase the incidences of an already present mutation. 

tecumseh replies:
your last sentence is where you should have begun...

by selection (and the oftentime forgotten side of selection... culling) you are trying to influence the frequency of the gene in the overall population. the question of whether the trait is dominant or recessive (and there are other terms that describe how genes may work... cumulative-additive for one, plus other I would assume) only suggest how easy or difficult it may be to increase the frequency of a particular gene in a population. 

I don't think you would be factually correct in calling this trait a mutation since I don't think??? anyone has suggested this is a trait (gene, allele) that has been altered by agents (things) that mutate genetic material.


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## danno1800 (Mar 13, 2004)

*OK, I'm in!*

I just ordered a VSH Breeder Queen from Glenn to raise daughters from next Spring. Let's compare notes next summer and see how the bees are doing. Good luck to all! -Danno


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I'm ordering a VSHxRussian for next spring which Suzie said appeared to give the best mite resistance. We'll see. 

I don't think I will be able to determine anything sufficient in 2008 with those daughter queens...for me to really make an evaluation on the quality or traits I see in the daughters I will need time to evaluate over the seasons. Just because I grafted in April and they are strong in August doesn't mean I have a great sustainable stock. It just means that the queen shows promise in being able to build up a strong colony over a few months.

I ordered a Carni breeder from them this year and couldn't tell you yet what I feel about them. I haven't seen the daughters winter yet... produce honey yet in sufficient quantities, build up in spring etc..... it takes time....


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Also, I've been told by Suki Glenn among others, that by using a VSH virgin, mated to a Carniolan drone (VSH x Carni) for your breeder, you will enhanse the VSH trait....more than by having a Carniolan virgin mated to a VSH drone (Carni x VSH).


I think that this information may be slightly out of date because I was recently told that Glenn has completely incorperated the VSH genes into both their cordovan and their carni lines. This year I purchased 3 breeders of russian descent and was told that all were mated to carnie drones carrying the VSH genes. I trust that this is true based on the appearance and behavior of these hives.


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## mountainvalleybee (May 13, 2007)

Keep in mind that it is usually a grouping of several characteristics, or a range of characteristics which define behaviors so finding a single gene responsible for the neccessary behaviors is difficult at best if not impossible, and also when you enhance anything you are usually doing something detrimental elsewhere. The best method is pushing or forcing natural selection down survival paths or the path you wish to take. The most of the animals existing today were selected by eyeballing and other quantified characteristics but not by extremely well defined genetic analysis. When these methods are used you are less likely to lose other desirables because you are less likely to select for a very narrow range of possibilities.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>I think that this information may be slightly out of date because I was recently told that Glenn has completely incorperated the VSH genes into both their cordovan and their carni lines.<

I realize that. Suki told me that, too. Their Carni line has VSH in it. But, when I asked how I could enhanse the VSH trait, she said to have the VSH come from the queen side. TJ in Maine said the same thing. So, this year I bought a VSHxCarni breeder. Also, bought a VSHxVSH breeder. My plan is to put some of those daughters in each yard...for drone stock. When my bees supercede, or swarm, there will be VSH drones out there to mate with.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*get it from the horses mouth*

I emailed themm with my questions and here is the reply. 

Dear Brad,

You ask some good questions. Some of the traits we are dealing with, specifcally hygienic behavior, is recessive so it is actually easier to weed out the bees that don't carry it. A behavioral test of their ability to uncap and remove killed brood is used to sort the bees out. 
Another trait VSH or varroa specific hygiene is thought to be neither dominant or recessive. Since there are more than on gene is probably involved, the more of these genes present, the more the trait will be expressed. Once again the only way to sort them out is through looking at the results of their behavior.
The trait for tracheal mite resistance is thought to be controlled by an unknown number of dominant genes. And your right, in this case it is not possible to tell if the bees contain only one copy or two copies, they will both behave the same. Maybe sometime in the not too distant future, we'll be able to read the DNA directly. This would be much more efficient, and avoid the long process of testing the behavior. It's possible now to analyze the DNA from wingtip clippings. It would be nice to know exactly which drones to mate with which queen before insemination. We look forward to that day.

As far as our queens are concerned, we use breeding stock in which these beneficial traits are fixed in the population. They are purely mated, so they will carry the desired traits. The queens we sell for $100 are the equivilent of a pure bred puppy, too young to have proved themselves, but starting with the best genes. 

Hope this answers some of your questions,

Tom Glenn

As far as the multi-gene vsh trait claim goes it is yet unproven. Basically what they are claiming is that the trait is like blue eyes. If both parents have blue eyes the children are likely to have light colored eyes; most likely blue, but its not a gaurentee. 

I am not convinced that they know what they are breeding, but I am not buying any queens either


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> >
> I realize that. Suki told me that, too. Their Carni line has VSH in it. But, when I asked how I could enhanse the VSH trait, she said to have the VSH come from the queen side. TJ in Maine said the same thing. So, this year I bought a VSHxCarni breeder. Also, bought a VSHxVSH breeder. My plan is to put some of those daughters in each yard...for drone stock. When my bees supercede, or swarm, there will be VSH drones out there to mate with.


My goal is to improve upon what I view as several faults to the Russians, while still maintaining there longevity and mite resistance. Of course its much easier for me to increase VSH in my apiary because I have so few hives. Next year, 90% of my queens will be F1s, home raised from one of 6 breeder out of glenn, and likely mated to russian drones.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>Next year, 90% of my queens will be F1s, home raised from one of 6 breeder out of glenn, and likely mated to russian drones.<

Tom Glenn says his favorite cross in VSHxRussian


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

I use as breeders the VSH x Carnie, VSH x Minn. Hyg, and VSH x VSH from Tom & Suki.
The VSH X VSH seems to be replaced after 2-3 months, while the others will last +/- 1 year. I am not sure why the dbl cross VSH is so short lived, unless the amount of inbreeding necessary to create VSH also reduces phermone generation and is doubled in the VSH x VSH. (speculation)
I replace them each year and the VSH X VSH twice a year. Seems to work out best for me.
My personal favorite is the VSH X Minn. Hyg., but they all work well. 
I have not used the Russians, yet. I might try that this year.
Which are your favorites?
Frank


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Michael Palmer said:


> >Next year, 90% of my queens will be F1s, home raised from one of 6 breeder out of glenn, and likely mated to russian drones.<
> 
> Tom Glenn says his favorite cross in VSHxRussian


That is exactly what they told me!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>Which are your favorites?<

I like the VSHxCarni. Large colonies at Dandelion, and good honey producers. But...one thing. Some daughters are rather defensive, and fly in your face. I can handle that, as all my yards are located away from people. I wonder about backyard beekeepers. Anybody else see this?

I was told this spring by several beekeepers who bought my queens in 2006, that the Glenn VSHxCarnis xx my drones were their best bees. None complained about temper.

I'm thinking about starting some Russians this summer. Had some in 1999...among the worst bees I ever had. I guess the breeders have improved the bee.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Michael Palmer said:


> >Which are your favorites?<
> 
> I like the VSHxCarni. Large colonies at Dandelion, and good honey producers. But...one thing. Some daughters are rather defensive, ...


Anyone seeing this with the VSHxRussian daughters?


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Queen race makes no resounding difference. Some italian stock will lay twice as much as Carniolan in the early spring. I have not been really impressed any more by the carnies than the regular old well mated italians.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> I'm thinking about starting some Russians this summer. Had some in 1999...among the worst bees I ever had. I guess the breeders have improved the bee.


Anything would have to be better than the ones I had a few years back. I've never had such an aggressive bee. They would have to be the last ones I worked, because if I worked them first they'd follow me head butting me until I was finished. Then I'd have to walk at least 100' and then duck into the garage just to get away from them. These are the only bees I ever had that I had to wear gloves with. I was satisfied with the overall performance other than their temperament. I can't remember where I got them from, but it was somewhere in Cali. If they are the same as I remember, I would not recommend them for a beginner.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>Queen race makes no resounding difference. Some italian stock will lay twice as much as Carniolan in the early spring. I have not been really impressed any more by the carnies than the regular old well mated italians.<

I guess it depends where you are. You're in Tennessee, I'm in northern Vermont.


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

What kind of honey do you make in Vermont? I am curious. We make tulip poplar, blackberry, clover, fruit blossom, sourwood, mtn. berry, sumac, and bamboo.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

CSbees said:


> What kind of honey do you make in Vermont? I am curious. We make tulip poplar, blackberry, clover, fruit blossom, sourwood, mtn. berry, sumac, and bamboo.



We get a nice progression of flows here, not each every year. In years when everything yields, we get a great crop. Starting in early May....

Willow, Dandelion, Fruit Bloom, Honeysuckle, Mustard, Brambles, Sumac, Clovers, Milkweed, Basswood, Sweet Clover, Purple Loosetrife, Goldenrod, Aster. Then the biggest and most dependable flow of all...

Snow!


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Is basswood as good as they say it is? I have never had the pleasure of tasting any. My favorite made down here is sumac. Something about its viscosity, amber color, and great flavor is delicious.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Michael: just stay away from the yellow snow~~~


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>Is basswood as good as they say it is?<

Mmmm. Very good! Better than Sourwood! 

Basswood is a white honey, with a distinctive minty flavor. Makes awsome comb honey. Flow not always dependable. I've heard something about getting a flow every 7 years. Haven't seen that. We surely make Basswood more than once every seven years.

This year wasn't a Basswood year. Didn't even taste any in burr comb. Maybe in another year, I'll have some, and we can exchange.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> >Which are your favorites?<
> 
> I like the VSHxCarni. Large colonies at Dandelion, and good honey producers. But...one thing. Some daughters are rather defensive, and fly in your face. I can handle that, as all my yards are located away from people. I wonder about backyard beekeepers. Anybody else see this?


You can select for gentle temper fairly easily, but you know that. 
Tom Glenn's endorsement of the Russian X VSH is food for thought. That
cross's offspring would be interesting to test: to see what kind of
combinations and colonies you'd have.

What's your rough colony yield figure for your breeders (VSHxCarni)?
Thanks,

Adam Finkelstein
[email protected]


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Sounds like a good idea. The best of Vermont and the best of East Tennessee honey.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> We get a nice progression of flows here, not each every year. In years when everything yields, we get a great crop. Starting in early May....
> 
> Willow, Dandelion, Fruit Bloom, Honeysuckle, Mustard, Brambles, Sumac, Clovers, Milkweed, Basswood, Sweet Clover, Purple Loosetrife, Goldenrod, Aster. Then the biggest and most dependable flow of all...
> 
> Snow!


 
Never tasted snow honey, what's it taste like?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

peggjam said:


> Never tasted snow honey, what's it taste like?


Water white...pretty bland. Granulated from the time it is made. **** stuff is so deep at times, you need special tires just to get around.

Not the only thing that gets deep around here, either.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>What's your rough colony yield figure for your breeders (VSHxCarni)?<

They usually make the average, or close to it the first year from nuc. Second year the good ones make much more. 

This year wasn't a great flow. I've been wrapping, and just from looking at the info I wrote on the backs, looks like this years nucs (made in July of '06) averaged near 100, with some totals of 80 to 120.

The colonies that were nucs a year or two ago, made up near 150. They make big colonies, which is what you need here to make honey.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

What they really need is a Quantitative Trait Loci (QTL) database website set up so that ARS and other reliable researchers can tell us more about gene-trait-environment relationships. Researchers in Tennessee and Maine have setup such databases for the mouse, and it is now possible for honeybees because we have a sequenced genome. This will advance the work of breeders greatly.


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Is the 150 in lbs.? Would you please give figures based in gallons or supers so that I can compare. Or even a conversion ratio.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

A deep super stuffed full is about 95 pounds of honey. A shallow super similarly stuffed is about 45 pounds. A medium runs in the range of 65 pounds. You can quibble about these weights a bit, some would say they are a bit high.

you can't just measure honey production, You must also measure how much honey had to be left for the bees to overwinter. It is common to leave 100 to 120 pounds for overwintering in the north and 45 to 65 pounds here in the south.

DarJones


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Fusion_power said:


> A deep super stuffed full is about 95 pounds of honey. A shallow super similarly stuffed is about 45 pounds. A medium runs in the range of 65 pounds. You can quibble about these weights a bit, some would say they are a bit high.
> 
> you can't just measure honey production, You must also measure how much honey had to be left for the bees to overwinter. It is common to leave 100 to 120 pounds for overwintering in the north and 45 to 65 pounds here in the south.
> 
> DarJones


The 150 is in pounds. 

I've weighed many supers of all sizes, when full, and after extracting. Deeps weigh about 80 pounds when full, and 20 after extracting. That works out to 60 pounds. Mediums have about 40 pounds of honey, while shallows have about 30. These weights are in supers where the combs are well puffed out with honey. 

My bees are along the Canadian border in NY and VT. I leave about 80-90 pounds on for winter. On the backs of the hive, I record the honey produced, and the weight of the hive when I weigh...for each year. Quite interesting to follow a colony's records over the years. At a glance, you can see total production and sugar fed for each year. 

A former inspector was helping me wrap last week, and we were comparing colonies. I was showing him the wisdom of NOT requeening every year. Some colonies produced big crops every year, some missed one year...when they requeened themselves...but produced big crops in the following years. Some produced big crops, but needed considerable amount of feed. Of course, some produced small crops a couple years in a row...these were either requeened, or split up into nucs for wintering. If I requeened by the calendar...ie annually or semiannually...I wouldn't be able to identify those colonies that go on from year to year producing big crops and requeening themselves when they need to.

Then there were those colonies that produced a big crop, and were way overweight. For instance...I remember one that produced 190 lbs this year, and weighed 220. Since my target weight is 160, that colony's production was 250. I don't figure the honey they need for winter into the production records...only what they make over that amount, or under that amount.


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

I agree with you on not requeening every year. I have a specific line of queens that came off of an outstanding queen from last year. There is no comparison to the production of the hives with these queens (the best of which produced near 30 gallons this year) to the queens I have got through the mail. The carniolans, I have also found do not lay carniolans. They lay italians. The commercial queens are therefore carniolan in genetic makeup, but mate with regular italian drones. Their offspring are not carniolan and do not seem to possess the advantages of Carniolans.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

CSbees said:


> I agree with you on not requeening every year. I have a specific line of queens that came off of an outstanding queen from last year. There is no comparison to the production of the hives with these queens (the best of which produced near 30 gallons this year) to the queens I have got through the mail.


Now, allow those colonies to go another two years, and see the results. After 2 years, you'll really see the cream rise to the top.


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

This will be the "matriarch" queens 3rd year coming up in the spring. She is not even slacking off brood rearing too much right now. I was fortunate to get this queen from a beekeeper here in Tennessee who is against medicating and his bees actually thrive. He is an excellent manager of his hives. His style is reflected in the natural health of all his colonies.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I was just wondering if the two of you could go into more depth on how you choose colonies for requeening. I've always been under the impression that once or twice annual requeening was universally recommended in all climates.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Aspera said:


> I was just wondering if the two of you could go into more depth on how you choose colonies for requeening. I've always been under the impression that once or twice annual requeening was universally recommended in all climates.


Aspera, if you requeen every colony once a year, how will you ever develop a strain that will be healthy and productive in your area? Almost any beekeeper who doesn't practice requeening by the calendar, can tell you of a colony that went on and on and on, year after year. Always among the best producers, and the best winterers. Those are the colonies we should be breeding from. Annual requeening would kill all these breeders before they could be discovered.

So, what colonies do get requeened. Colonies with chalkbrood do. Hopefully with a hygienic strain. Colonies with poor patterns do, and colonies that winter poorly too.

If you keep a yard sheet on your bees, you begin to notice patterns. You see that colonies perform similarly from year to year. So, you have a colony that comes through the winter so, so. I like to see at least 9 frames of brood at dandelion. This one has 4. But the pattern is good...we'll give her a chance. You come back to re-super the yard a few weeks later. Most colonies have a hundred pounds on, but the questionable one has only a super and a half. So yoe decide to re-queen it. You break the hive open to start the procedure, and find hatched queen cells. OK, the bees did the job for you. Cool! So....

Next season, the colony has 4 frames of brood at dandelion. But, it's a new queen last summer. Give her a chance, right? I bet she has 4 frames of brood next year, too.

Some colonies are easy to read, when they need re-queening. Some are more difficult. It's the ones like my little example that you should focus on. 

What I'm trying to say is, keep good records. That's how you'll know which colonies to requeen.

By the way...any colony in my operation that isn't performing well by dandelion, gets nuked with an overwintered nuc. That gets the first round of requeening done early. Later in the summer, any colonies not performing get broken up into 4 frame nucs. What's left on each stand...old queen and field bees in a medium or two...get requeened with the last round of queens. These are overwintered as nucs.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

MP

Your so right about requeening every year. I only requeen those hives that are doing poorly, the rest I leave alone so I can evaluate them.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

Aspera said:


> I was just wondering if the two of you could go into more depth on how you choose colonies for requeening. I've always been under the impression that once or twice annual requeening was universally recommended in all climates.


If you're not into breeding your own queens and selecting from your own stock it's ok to requeen every year and I'm sure you know the reasons it is recommended to requeen annually. People who do breed their own queens and choose for certain qualities need longer than a year to evaluate their stock. You can buy your queens from those who do all the work in selecting from their best to breed from.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

WVbeekeeper said:


> People who do breed their own queens and choose for certain qualities need longer than a year to evaluate their stock.


My point was that annual requeening will eliminate colonies that have queens, or their daughters, that will thrive under minimum management. Colonies like this, for instance:

This colony started out as an overwintered 4 frame nuc. The nuc was started in the summer of 2000. It has never been requeened by me. It surely has requeened itself, probably in 2004. You can see how production drops a bit that year, and then shoots up the next year...along with an increase in brood that year. It has been treated for Varroa a few times. The numbers are: # frames brood at Dandelion bloom, weight of honey taken, weight of colony first week October (150 is OK).

Year Brood Honey Weight
2001 Nuc 120 ?
2002 9 160 150
2003 10 155 180
2004 10 135 150
2005 13 200 170
2006 13 160 160
2007 Took Queen for Breeder


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