# swarm trapping



## Bradley_Bee

One of the best traps I ever "had" was an old refrigerator someone left out in the brush. It matters little on the type , but I'll say make sure the cavity is of good size. I've experimented with nuc traps. I've put a lot out and I have caught swarms in them but I think bees prefer a bigger cavity. Do you have any old boxes lying around. You don't have to fill them all the way up just a few frames. I've always had better luck with wet frames than with dry and I've never had any luck with any oils or lures. At least not in my area. I believe they do sell a swarm trap but you'd have to monitor it often and probably do a cut out in the end. There is a trap shaped like a nuc made out of that paper stuff that you can fit frames in. A little searching around and i'm sure you'll find a place that still sells them. good luck


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## taydeko

From what I've read, foundation would be a waste of time in a swarm trap. The comb is a great lure and helps the swarm get off to a fast start.


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## Riskybizz

Reese..

I don't think your going to find anything "cheaper" than cardboard. I would advise using some old deep supers and a frame of comb if you have any. Cardboard for obvious reasons doesn't hold up very well to weathered conditions. Most of my swarms have been caught in a standard deep box as opposed to a 5 frame nuc, but you never know. A swarm lure never hurts either. Don't think cheap, think creative.


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## Stanisr

Go to the "Build I Yourself" section of the home page and use the 5 frame nuc plans of D. A. Cotes. The result will be cheap and durable.


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## Stanisr

That is D. Coates. Sorry for that Mr. Coates.


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## hemichuck

I've been reading the book Honey Bee Democracy and the author pretty much tells what size trap bees prefer and the entrance type.When I get home maybe I can refer back and get some dimensions.


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## beyondthesidewalks

hemichuck said:


> I've been reading the book Honey Bee Democracy and the author pretty much tells what size trap bees prefer and the entrance type.When I get home maybe I can refer back and get some dimensions.


The book recommends a size of 40 liters which is about the size of a single deep. You can search the archives with the key words "swarm trap" and find much of this information. It's been hashed over and over.

I have much success with 5 frame nucs. The manufactured 5 frame pulp swarm traps are no longer available. That's also been hashed over and over again. You don't need black comb. I've never used black comb and had success. Lemongrass oil(LGO) also works great and is readily available at the local health food store.

Homemade plywood traps, ala Mr. Coates are probably the cheapest yet somewhat durable option. Many folks don't like plywood, saying it doesn't last but I've got some plywood stuff that has been around a while with a good coat of paint.

Good Luck with it.


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## L. M. Reese

So how would you go about using a deep super? Do you nail a top and bottom on? My mentor uses cardboard nucs with some success. He puts out about 10 a year and catches4 or 5 swarms. How often do you make the rounds to check your traps?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

I use all deeps. Use a regular solid bottom board, inner cover, top, big rock to keep it intact. Set it on a barrel, on a fence post, or any where else. Lemongrass oil helps. During major swarm season, check at least every week. If you don't, and bees move in they will hang comb on the inner cover. If that happens, place a deep on top, wait until the queen moves up, then set that deep and the queen on a new bottom, set the trap a few yards away, and let them rob out the combs in the trap box.. cchoganjr


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## L. M. Reese

Thanks ya'll for the advice. How many traps should be put in a certain area? I have a bunch of places to try that would make my route about twenty miles. If a landowner has fifty acres is one trap sufficient or do I need to put more.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Set as many as you can. It increases your odds. You can use any old deep super you have that you are not going to use. Don't worry about holes, broken rabbets, ill fitting tops, etc, you are going to move them out of the trap. 

When I find them in a trap, I place drawn comb or foundation in the trap, let the queen start laying, (usually a week or so) then transfer the frames into your new box, let it stay in place for another week or so, then move the new box, and set the trap back in the same place. You will find that the location that catches bees one year, will be your "HOT" spot year after year. Remember those areas that caught bees, and keep several traps in that area. Some places may never catch any bees. 

Place in an area where you think there will be swarms, or where you have caught swarms, either from feral sources or neighbor's bee yards. If you have a fifty acre target area, one trap is not enough, but one is better than none. If you have fifty acres, and there are good number of colonies, (feral or neighbor's) I would put at least 5 to 10. cchoganjr


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## beyondthesidewalks

L. M. Reese said:


> Thanks ya'll for the advice. How many traps should be put in a certain area? I have a bunch of places to try that would make my route about twenty miles. If a landowner has fifty acres is one trap sufficient or do I need to put more.


It's kind of like fishing. The more lines you have wet the more fish you'll catch. The more traps you have out there, the more swarms you'll catch. Up your odds by putting them in places where swarms have been caught or sighted, where cutouts have been done and where you see feral bees in trees and other abodes.

I use 5 frame nucs with foundationless frames and LGO in it. I've thought about trying a 10 frame deep and I"d do it by screwing a plywood bottom and top on the hive body with a 1" hole drilled in one end so I could put a Walter T. Kelley metal disc on it. It would also have 10 foundationless frames in it to make moving the bees to a standard hive a breeze.


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## odfrank

beyondthesidewalks said:


> I It would also have 10 foundationless frames in it to make moving the bees to a standard hive a breeze.


The only one in which I used foundationless frames had total comb collapse when moved to another site. What a mess. With all foundationles frames you also risk crosscombing.


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## beyondthesidewalks

Not if you run frame wire or fishing line in the frames to support the combs. Bees tend to not build comb to the sides and bottoms of frames. Without some sort of reinforcement I would expect to end up with a mess. I've had a little bit of cross comb but not much. Nothing that can't be handled with a little management. My first attempt at foundationless was a failuare much like yours. I don't see how the top bar only frames could be handled at all in 90 degree plus heat.


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## L. M. Reese

When you say foundationless frames, do you mean no foundation at all or do you use a starter strip


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## beyondthesidewalks

L. M. Reese said:


> When you say foundationless frames, do you mean no foundation at all or do you use a starter strip


I use no foundation at all. Started out with starter strips but despite my best efforts to wedge them in securely, they would get warm in our heat and fall out. Then I started putting popsicle sticks and paint stirring sticks in top bar grooves and coating them with wax. Couldn't get enough of the paint stiirrers and felt bad asking for more so I swtiched to strips I cut on my tablesaw. Then I found I could purchase foundationless top bars that had the guide on them already. That appealed to my lazy side.


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## L. M. Reese

Stanisr thanks for suggesting the plywood nucs. I made up a dozen so we'll see how they do.


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## Stanisr

Your welcome, I believe when I finished mine last year, I had about $4.50 per trap, not including frames.


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## sea

I've built 8 Coats plywood nucs, along with several traps made from old deeps. My backorder of Kelly metal entrance discs just arrived so I'm planning to install them on the traps. 

The traps look fairly tight with just the round entrance opening, does anyone add a screened hole as a vent? With the Kelly discs turned to the vent position there isn't a lot of area for air movement. It seems like this could be a problem when you have captured a swarm and need to haul the trap back to your bee yard. Also, any drain holes in the bottom?


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## Gypsi

I'll echo that drain hole in the bottom question. And should I 
Paint the inside of the plywood bottom? I normally paint my 
Solid bottom boards. I have already built a couple of standard
Bottoms and telescoping covers for my nuc traps. 
Save them for actual nucs?
I'm thinking wood shims for guides in my foundationless frames. 
A 10 pack is about a dollar.


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## beyondthesidewalks

If you live in a very humid climate a weep hole in the bottom of a box might be prudent. I don't see a need to add a vent of any sort since the bees will move into permanent gear later on. I don't see a need to paint the interior but I guess you could. The bees will poilsh it up and seal holes with propolis. I just use plywood tops and bottoms on swarm traps. I would save nice bottom boards and tops for regular hives. Go to the paint counter of your closest big box and see how many paint stirrers you can talk them out of. They'll make great guides in your foundationless frames. Beats a dollar. Easy to make with a tablesaw if you have one using free scrap lumber.


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## Gypsi

Thank you. I figured paint smell on the inside would put the bees "off" - didn't paint the bottom board of my Hogan Trap either, for the same reason. Got surplus plywood from the base on the trap tower - 19/32 should do decent extra nucs. And have tomorrow "off" as it is supposed to rain, then it's cold all weekend. I'll say I'm going to get something done on a day, then the phone rings and it's a customer, or the sun sets and I turn into a pumpkin. I just do what I can when I can...

I'm going to drill a weep hole in the bottom, and staple screening over it, inside and out, regular window screening.

Gypsi


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## beyondthesidewalks

I am racing to Rusk and Grapeland today to get some work done there, trying to beat the rain. Tomorrow evening I start my weekend marathon of swarm trap prep. I really don't think the weep hole is necessary in Ft. Worth. Houston might be another story.


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## Gypsi

Are you just screwing the plywood lid on, (thinking about all the ticked off bees when I go to take mine off


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## oblib

Less ticked off bees undoing a few screws than prying out nails or staples.


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## taydeko

I'm thinking about using velcro glued and screwed onto the hive on the side and top. Light, fast, and easy.

Ted


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## Gypsi

taydeko said:


> I'm thinking about using velcro glued and screwed onto the hive on the side and top. Light, fast, and easy.
> 
> Ted


Checking my sewing machine drawer for velcro


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## Gypsi

Kids can open velcro. Going back to screws. I have grandchildren near one of these bait hives.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

I use "Gorilla" , duct tape, to hold lids on nucs, and to secure the inner cover when I sell hives/nucs, when people come to pick them up. ( I put a piece of screen over the hole in the inner cover and Gorilla tape the inner cover to the hive chamber) Gorilla duct tape is virtually waterproof, will stick to almost anything. I use it a lot.

I sometimes screw the lids on swarm traps, but, I normally transfer from the trap to a new hive, BEFORE I move the swarm I have caught. That way the queen and the new swarm is already familiar with the new hive, and it is the same procedure as moving any hive. Also, after transferring into a new hive, you don't have to worry about holes, ill fitting tops or bottoms. I often move them in the rear of a Chevy Tahoe with screen over the entrance. cchoganjr


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## beyondthesidewalks

I use deck screws. I have them around all the time. My cordless drill has become standard beekeeping equipment for me. I use it with strips of wood to secure hive bodies, tops and bottoms together before moving a hive. One strip of wood on each side and the back of a hive keeps it very secure and screws are much quieter than hive staples. I use the drill to secure entrance screens, entrance reducers, robber screens and swarm trap lids. Don't have to worry about them blowing off that way. True, I do need the drill to loosen the cover but since I have it handy all of the time, it's not a problem and doesn't seem to bother the bees much. Since I've started this program I don't have any problem with screens, lids or reducers coming loose or falling off. The screws are reusable if I don't strip them out. It does leave an assortment of holes in equipment that will eventually get covered up with paint. The screw holes have not posed a great problem for me yet.

I have been known to resort to that all around, can fix any problem, 8th wonder of the world, duct tape in a pinch when it's more of a temporary thing. Always seem to have duct tape around also. Guess that earns me my man badge...


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## Gypsi

Duct tape definitely failed on me last year, but then I never did get my man card... :lookout:


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## beyondthesidewalks

Duct tape is very temporary...Sometimes gives up before you intend for it to.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

beyondthesidewalks......gypsi...... Have you tried the Gorilla Tape. I was really surprized how durable it is. Pricey to be sure, but very durable and really holds. cchoganjr


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## beyondthesidewalks

I've seen it but it struck as the Gorilla brand of duct tape. Haven't tried it but I'll take a look.


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## LetMBee

L.M. Reese: I use old deeps that have bad corners or some other defect. Cut a 1 inch hole in there front of the box. I then take a 2 x 2's that are 9-5/8" long and screw one in each corner. Make a 3/8 plywood lid and bottom. Screw the lid into the 2 x 2's. Cut a 1 x 4 about 16 inches long and screw it to one side of the deep so that it extends up 6 3/8 inches above the deep. In the end that extends up past the box come down from the top about 2 inches and put a 1/2" hole so a nail can easily fit through. Place 7 frames inside that are empty and 1 drawn out comb that is old and dark. It will be less appetizing to wax moths that way. Place a small snack size baggie inside the box somewhere under or behind the frames with a piece of paper towel in there that you have placed about 5-8 drops of lemon grass oil. 
Put that in a place close to a river drainage and check it about once a week. I am going to be building some more soon and putting the process on my blog. I have caught a lot with that setup.

http://letmbee.com
Youtube channel - http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=letmbee


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## L. M. Reese

I got some of the Kelley plastic disc entrances in the mail today. I was kind of disappointed in them. They seem to small to be much use. The entrance hole is only big enough for one or two bees to pass through at a time. Do ya'll think that would be big enough to use on a trap ?


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## beyondthesidewalks

When I first looked at the WTK discs I noticed that they had plastic and metal disks. Looking at the dimensions of the plastic disk, they seemed small to me. The durability of galvanized metal disks struck my fancy along with what seemed to be the correct size. That's what I use now. I initially got larger plastic disks from Betterbee. Eventually I couldn't get them because they were having problems sourcing them from the manufacturer in Greece(if I'm not mistaken). I resorted to making my own swarm trap closures until I happened upon the WTK metal disks. Betterbee has the large plastic disks again and I would buy them if the metal disks from WTK were no longer available. The plastic doesn't last IMO and experience. The sun dries them out and makes them brittle. They get banged around in transport and eventually break. The durability of the WTK metal disks makes them my hands down favorite. An opinion worth what you paid for it...


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## beyondthesidewalks

"Pricey to be sure"

You're right about that Cleo. I priced the Gorilla tape on my way home from work this evening and it was three times the price of duct tape. Screws seem to be the most economic and sure to hold alternative even if they require the cordless drill and extra work.


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## Gypsi

Robber bees remove duct tape. Don't know if the gorilla 
Would make a difference. I'm going with screws and 
Pipe strap for robber screens.
Not sure how mucH I'll trust duct tape.
Gypsi


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## FlowerPlanter

My lids on my D Cotes 5 frame nukes fit fairly snug, but not secure enough for me, especially if I plan on moving them, could get bumped then have a swam of mad bees chasing me.

I’m was also needing a way to secure traps to trees so I came up a awesome idea. I bought package of eye screws, going to drill pilot holes then use the 2 eye screws to hold down lid. Fingers tighten them so they will be like wing nuts. And a 3' piece of electric fence wire (cheap/a bunch left over) to fasten it to the tree. 

The wire will should allow me to attach the trap to any tree easy/quickly, and give me a little room to keep the trap level (for the foundationless frames). The traps will be resting the trunk of the trees so that swinging in the wind is minimal. 

Still pondering the disk door, for right now I will not be using one, will be using piece of duck tape IF I catch a swarm. I do not see any benefit in attracting a swarm. Only negatives if the remote chance it get bumped and closed by branches, a raccoons... (Just not worth paying money for that extra negative chance) I may make my own out of can lids if I must have them.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

FlowerPlanter.... I haven't seen any talk about it, but depending on how far your traps are, from where you want to take them, specifically how many miles you have to drive, HERE, is what I do on almost all my trapped swarms. The bees are in your swarm trap, so simply move them to the ground and let them set there for a day, or a few days, then transfer to a regular hive, and leave them longer or move them as in moving any hive. Then put your trap back in the same place it was for other swarms that will now find this box more attractive, since bees will have just been in it. If you are talking lots of miles, might not be practical to make multiple trips, but, if you have your frames in your swarm trap box, there is no hurry to move them anyway. It will take the swarm several days, to a few weeks to outgrow your nuc or reg hive. I normally use old delapidated boxes for swarm traps, and it is so much easier to move your swarm, after you have put them in good equipment. cchoganjr


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## FlowerPlanter

Cleo Good idea, I can do that with most of traps. Some of my traps will be hard to get to and some will be 3 hours away and if they get full I will swap an empty for a full and take the trap home.

I don’t plan on checking my traps but once a month (most areas that I am trapping will be mostly smaller feral hives). Surely they can't out grow a box (5 frame deep nuke) in one brood cycle unless they were too big to begin with. And if that’s the case what will happen will they stay and swarm or abscond or either? And in how many days?

I do have 4 old 10 frame boxes that I will be using and going to put them in the best places.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Not much is going to happen in 30-60 days. The swarm will build comb, store nectar/pollen, make honey, the queen will begin laying, and as they run out of room, they will build burr comb in every nook and cranny available. They are not likely to swarm or abscond. More likely, the queen would cut back on laying, as room runs out in the hive. Since the swarm queen is the old queen of the old colony, as soon as they are fully established in your swarm trap, they may supercede her, but then the new queen/queens will take several more days before anything of consequence happens. Of course some primary swarms can be monster size, but even so, it takes a while to establish the new colony to the point it is ready to throw a swarm. Not likely to abscound after they settle into your swarm box. cchoganjr


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## DRAKOS

Hi all swarm-trappers. Very good info here. 
I am going to use 5 foundationless frames , and 1 with dark black drown comb in each swarm trap I have made. But all my frames are wired. Do the bees draw comb in a foundationless frame with wire, or I have to put it out? Of course I will put a wax strip on the top of each frame.


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## LetMBee

Leave that wire in there. They will build right around it giving the wax a little better support. Good luck this spring.


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## DRAKOS

Thank you very much, good luck to you also.


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## odfrank

>I am going to use 5 foundationless frames , and 1 with dark black drown comb in each swarm trap 
You might get crosscombing with this setup.

>Some of my traps will be hard to get to and some will be 3 hours away 
Easy/close pickup is one feature to consider in placement. Three hours of gas @ $4.25 a gallon per catch? $$$?


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## DRAKOS

OD what do you think is better ? Frames with foundation?


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## odfrank

DRAKOS said:


> OD what do you think is better ? Frames with foundation?


I am not a foundationless expert, but...The one bait box I made foundationless last year had comb collapse when I moved it. I ran about 25 honey supers short last year and made them up with boxes with alternating drawn combs and foundationless. I ran short of drawn combs and where ever I had several foundationless in a row they cross combed it and attached it to the side wall of the box. The general recommendation for foundationless is that it is alternated between drawn combs. I had some medium depth foundationnelss bait boxes that did not cross comb and drew pretty good worker comb. If you use foundation in bait boxes put them in the shade so that you don't get foundation warpage from to much heat.
The one benefit from the major the die offs I suffer is that I have a lot of brood comb from the dead hives for my baits and a honey crop from leftover stores to boot.


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## DRAKOS

OD thanks for the advice.
Good hunting this spring!


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## Gypsi

Alright - had a grandkid invasion this weekend, not over til tomorrow afternoon, but it was cold and rainy anyway.

I have 4 nucs, 1 deep that I'll be setting out initially, the old deep is really old, wood putty in the corners, had bees in it for years, and it was cheaply built to begin with, so I screwed 2x2 posts in all 4 corners, screwed bottom and top into the 2x2's. I have 10 foundationless deep frames with starter strip of paint stirrer (not wax coated yet) and strung with 20 lb monofilament fishing line. Horizontally and x. I have 10 foundationless super frames that are getting a half strip of foundation, probably no string. And I have plastic foundation - pierco, the one piece, that have been used before. I MIGHT have 5 frames of comb left after setting the Hogan trap, so one frame of comb (BT sprayed) per trap. And lemon grass oil. I figured I'd alternate between the pierco and the foundationless to try to get them to draw straight comb. Most distant trap going out: 25 miles. And in an area I am in at least once a week normally - grandkids live over there. 

Good hunting to us all! (oh - gluing the half strip of plastic foundation in as starter strip - anyone have a suggestion?)

Gypsi


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## beyondthesidewalks

"(oh - gluing the half strip of plastic foundation in as starter strip - anyone have a suggestion?)"

I've abandoned the starter strip of wax foundation because I've never been able to make them stay. Tried wedge top frames. Tried melting wax and using that to "glue" them in but they still kept falling out in our heat. I think I read someone recommending glueing them in with elmers glue but that doesn't sound right to me. I've resorted to wood strips coated in wax. Still have some SC wax foundation that I may try again if someone can give me a solution that really works.


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## Gypsi

Well I'm using plastic foundation as starter strips in the super frame strips - was going to use luan but was afraid the glue in it might not be food safe, and I think I've hit Home Depot hard enough on paint stirrers, better give it a couple of weeks. I'm using 3/4 inch nails in the edge holes, and I guess I'll melt some beeswax and pour in for a better anchor when they are all done. Toddler didn't nap, I'd best run and save my house!

Gypsi


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## L. M. Reese

I have some brood comb from a couple winter die outs that I want to use on swarm traps but some of it has some capped and uncapped honey. Would this be okay for traps or will it just attract robbers?


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## beyondthesidewalks

Will attract robbers and other unwanted guests. You don't need comb in a swarm trap. Undrawn frames work fine. LGO seems to be the silver bullet IMO. That's all I use to attract swarms on foundationless frames and it works. I only use frames in my swarm traps for the ease of moving trapped swarms into standard equipment.


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## L. M. Reese

I figured I needed comb because last year I installed a package on foundation in a ten frame deep and that promptly left and moved into a neighbor's 5 frame swarm trap. He said it was because of the drawn comb. It was like moving into a furnished house.


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## CaBees

Did he give you your bees back?


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## L. M. Reese

Yeah. I actually met him because I knew he had bees near by and I went to ask if he knew why they might've left. He told me we would check the trap that was closest to where my hives were and sure enough there they were. We have sine become good friends and he has helped and taught me a great deal. Everyone said he was an old grump but he's actually a great old guy.


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## beyondthesidewalks

I had to check your location and make sure it wasn't San Mateo. Sounds like odrank behavior to me. Anyway, you're safe in GA. Who knows why bees do what they do. They certainly don't read our books or subscribe to beesource. I haven't bought a package in a long time and there are a lot of things working against you in a package. The bees are not related. They've just been shaken from their hive and joined with a bunch of strangers and a strange queen. When trapping bees things are a little different. They are related and working together from the get go. I'm not sure they moved into his swarm trap because of comb but that may be the case. Was he using any attractant? I wouldn't let this bad package experience effect my swarm trapping. Did your neighbor give you your bees back?


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## L. M. Reese

Yeah he gave them back trap and all. When we saw bees coming and going from the trap, he said let's take it down and if there's a marked queen in there then we'll play like they're yours.


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## beyondthesidewalks

Sounds like you got a cool bee friend out of the deal. If you're not careful he might teach you a few things.


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## Gypsi

Now that is a great outcome.


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## odfrank

> Everyone said he was an old grump but he's actually a great old guy. 

Must have been me.


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## Keth Comollo

Here is a pic of my swarm traps made using most everything I could from Dr. Seely's book "Honeybee Democracy!"


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## Charlie B

Keth,

I like the paint job on those. Good hunting.


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## sea

I did a little experiment with one of the Coates nucs built with BC exterior plywood. The box went outside to see how it stood up against the weather. Even with 3 coats of a very good quality (miss-tinted) exterior paint on the top, I started to get some plywood swelling after the first rain. Not bad, just enough that it bothered me... and it was still raining so I had nothing better to do. 

Had part of a roll of brown aluminum flashing in the shop, I now have covered tops and no swelling. The camo is clove brown solid stain over the miss-tinted base coat... the flashing on the lid is then over painted with the box color. It's hard to see in the pic but the miss-tint is a tan-gray that kind of blends in with everything... kind of a driftwood meets dead grass color. At $4 for the gallon, I figured I couldn't go wrong!


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## Keth Comollo

That is a good idea with the flashing. I have a sheet of galvanized laying around that should cover all my traps lids. Yet another project!


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## Gypsi

The ideas are just getting better and better! Beautiful camo Keth! Nice job with the flashing Seth!

Gypsi


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## Charlie B

Seth,

How do you bend the flashing down over the edges of the lid? Will a rubber mallet work?


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## Barry

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?251997-bending-jig-for-top-covers&highlight=bend


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## Charlie B

Barry,

Easy diagram for bend cuts in the flashing, thanks!


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## sea

Charlie B. 

A rubber mallet will work, your bends might not look perfect but he bees won't care and it will still shed water fine. I have a cheap sheetmetal break that I picked up from Harbor Freight. You wouldn't want to go into production with my break, but i is fine for the occasional piece of flashing. 

Someone mentioned about printing plates from the paper... very good idea. I have made a couple of telescoping covers for 10 frames using narrow flashing. I just made the metal in two pieces, coated the seam with RTV silicone and added a strip of cedar to cover the seam. Actually, the one on my hive right now is one of these with 2 inches of blue foam insulation inside.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

beyondthesidewalks....Gorilla tape is pricey, but, if you need a tape that will hold, virtually waterproof, stick to anything, Gorilla tape is the way to go. I don't think you would be disappointed. 

My problem with screws is that when using lots of nucs, the screw holes will not interchange on the lids and boxes.

cchoganjr


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