# Leaving off Fumagillin made no difference in survival rate - Thank Jim Lyon.



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I'm posting here because this is the section of the forum where I gathered that this might be possible. I started beekeeping in 2008, and had been using Fum prophylactically in the fall as per how I was instructed. Since then I have seen a few sources that said it made no difference, and some that said it actually caused harm. When I read that Jim Lyon had stopped using it I thought it was worth leaving it off. So far my losses are no worse than they have been before. I am at 36 colonies alive out of 39 entering winter. The three that I lost had starved. Thanks Jim.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

So you do nothing for Nosema prevention ? 

Seems a little strange that so many are paying all that money for Fum-B to keep bees healthy . 
I would love to see some scientific proof that it is not needed to prevent or treat nosema , maybe if someone who stopped using it, that had some bees tested could let us know, because the less money we beekeepers have to spend the better 

I will continue to use it for packages and wintered colonies because I have such a short season that our bees need to be strong really fast and Nosema is a risk I can't take.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Ben you might want to read this:
http://www.plospathogens.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.ppat.1003185


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Wow that was a lot of big words LOL ! So from their research I tried looking at the graphs and some I don't fully understand , but I would say that they are trying to put Fum-B on the poop list 

I am still going to treat packages with Fum-B , But I wil do some serious thinking on what to do in the near future with treating or not.

Thanks for the link


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think the important issues are:

"The current application protocol for fumagillin may exacerbate N. ceranae infection rather than suppress it."

and

"It is toxic to mammals and must be applied seasonally and with caution to avoid residues in honey."

Two good reasons not to use it. Additionally:
Fumidil also kills bacteria: http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?q=all&sid=26758740
Bacteria in their gut also protect bees from Nosema: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Beekeeping successfully off and on since 1976 and have never used fumidil.


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## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

Never used it and haven't seen evidence of Nosema...


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I remember that I purchased a bottle, back in the late 1960's. I also remember that I never got around to using it. So far, I still have bees.


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## Jon B (Apr 24, 2013)

Only used Fumagillin twice. I saw a lot of dysentery a few years back so I thought I would give it a try. It did seam to reduce the signs of dysentery coming out of winter. I used it a second time the winter of 2012-2013 and it made no difference. I had very high hive loss and the worst dysentery I have ever seen, inside and outside of the hive. This past winter 2013-2014 I have not used it and my bees looked really good. I don't have any plans of using it in the near future.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

We use a micro-flora builder in our sub that promotes a strong healthy mid gut that competes with nosema spores. Haven't use anything else in years.


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## pahvantpiper (Apr 25, 2006)

I've also seen no difference in the years I've used it and the years I haven't. As long as mite levels are low and nutrition is high I've never had a problem.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Fumigilan is alot like using Tiger repelant in Wisconsin. If you do not have any Nosema, it does no good to use Fumigilan. But if you have Nosema, it can save their lives. It is your choice, choose and choose wisely. But be aware, a Tiger does get on the loose on occasion.

Crazy Roland


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## stevethebeeman (Mar 27, 2013)

Our spore counts went down when we started using fumigilan. Bees seemed to do better


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ben Little said:


> I am still going to treat packages with Fum-B , But I wil do some serious thinking on what to do in the near future with treating or not.


That would probably be a good idea. They (NZ package operators)treat the bees before they shake them, a treatment after hiving is a good idea. A few years ago they (NZ package operators) got caught with high nosema levels in their hives, and the packages were complete disasters by the time they made it this far. Since they (NZ package operators) started using Fum-B there has been little trouble. 

Be careful what band wagon you get on, beekeeping conditions many not be the same for everyone commenting here

I agree with Roland, "But be aware, a Tiger does get on the loose on occasion."


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Can't say I've seen any difference in the years I've used Fumagillin and the years I haven't. At one point I treated prophylactically in fall and spring until some of my bees were tested for nosema during winter and the results showed heavy infection levels. Those hives all wintered well and did well the next spring. Right or wrong, I went back to not treating and my winter survival rates didn't change. Maybe the infections would have been worse and the loses greater, who knows?

A beekeeper close to me never treats and he consistently has among the best survival rates in the area.

If my hives looked bad in spring and nosema levels were high, I'd probably treat in desperation, but I won't use it prophylactically.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Very interesting thread. I will keep this information in mind when deciding what is best for our bees

Thanks all
Ben


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Roland said:


> Fumigilan is alot like using Tiger repelant in Wisconsin. If you do not have any Nosema, it does no good to use Fumigilan. But if you have Nosema, it can save their lives. It is your choice, choose and choose wisely. But be aware, a Tiger does get on the loose on occasion.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Who doesn't have Nosema? When is the best time of the year to look for it? And then treat?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

My point has consistently been that I didn't personally note any difference in years I did vs. years I didn't use it and not that there isn't any scenario where it is beneficial. I invested in a microscope and was pretty diligent in pulling samples and trying to make treatment decisions based on the results. I finally decided that testing results are so fickle that it's hard to really make decisions based on what I was seeing. I have no doubt that there are some scenarios where it may well be beneficial, at least in the short term. My gut feeling is that if overwintering in a harsh climate there are probably more benefits to be gained. I did, though, years ago (pre varroa) run my own side by side on 500+ hives each treated and untreated within the same locations in central Minnesota and found my wintering success virtually identical. My recent evidence is about 3 years ago when, after receiving some test results from the state of South Dakota, I called to discuss the results with the state inspector Bob Reiners. He said I had some of the lowest reading in the state and wondered about my treatment regime. He was quite surprised when I told him that I hadn't treated and that I didn't have a clue why the readings were so low. There are plenty of other things to worry about when managing your bees, I finally decided not to make nosema one of them, that's my story and I'm stickin to it. It's also important to note, though, that nosema ceranae is a lot different creature and much more of a year round problem than nosema Apis.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Allen Martens said:


> Right or wrong, I went back to not treating and my winter survival rates didn't change.


Fumagillin is one of those treatments I use out of fear, and have not gone without because our length of winter confinement. I have been on a campaign lately to manage my operation "knowing" what is going on in the hive and acting accordingly. Nosema is one of those disease factors which I have not observed a problem yet (from testing) but still manage trying to control "the unknown". So ya, I fall into that same grey area category everyone else seems to. Winter Nosema treatment will be the next on my list but until then I will be using Fumagillin. I have heard more that one story exactly the opposite of Allen, where as two guys wintering in the same shed, one treated and wintered well, the other did not and the hives were dead and a mess. The problem is other factors which may of contributed in these findings...


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

pahvantpiper said:


> As long as mite levels are low and nutrition is high I've never had a problem.


Well said Rob..... it seems just keeping the bees healthy goes along way, but the mites has got to be enemy number one. Don't let your guard down on the mite levels.


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