# New Regulations Coming



## john beeman (Feb 28, 2016)

I spent quite a while today talking to the bee folks in Tallahassee. Our conversation was about so called "bee rescuers" who charge for the cutout and then sell the cutout as a nuc. While that my sound like a good deal depending on price....(I tried to purchase one for $175.00 and was turned down...). The problem lies in unregulated sales. The seller just did a cutout and has very little idea about the health of the bees and the buyer is at the mercy of the seller. If we really want to be "bee rescuers" we are going to have to follow some type of inspection ....unregulated sales of bees from cutouts to buyers is coming to an end...in the state of Florida......Very soon.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

A little freedom is a princely sum.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

A slave asks what is legal, a free man asks what is right.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Welcome to the Nanny State. 

cchoganjr


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

It would be very difficult to regulate. Even on a good day.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Is this FL's way of dealing with Africanization? Is that what FL is concerned with here?


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

I'm with sqkcrk, what's the core concern, africanization traits or the "labeling" as cut out/swarm? Cut outs actually do give an insight into a colony's health (not traits) as you have an opportunity to inspect the brood and their environment. I'll sell a swarm, trap out, cutout, shook package, recent or overwintered nuc at the drop of a hat; however I'll tell you upfront exactly what it is and/or where it originated. Am I missing something ethically or does the "truth in origin" satisfy the ethical issue?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Beekeepers, that is anyone performing swarm and feral colony removal, possessing honey bees or used beekeeping equipment is required to be registered with the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. Registered beekeepers are inspected by Apiary Inspectors. Beekeepers selling bees on a regular basis are inspected annually or slightly more than honey producers or pollinators. There is no such pending regulation I am aware of. If you have a complaint or concern you should contact your Apiary Inspector, Jeff Pippin (850)643-1955. Other than checking for diseases and Africanized honey bees, it is up to the buyer just like the plants at a nursery or home store. I am guessing the "bee folks" are other beekeepers because Jeff is the only state employee for Apiary in the district.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I think Tallahassee is looking for something to tax. If their concern is Africanization, aren't they about 30 years late to the party.

Alex


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I've only been exposed to a small part of the removal 'culture' in Florida, but most of the removals in FL that I've been involved with or seen up close involve finding and caging the queen, putting her in a box with plastic foundation only, and trashing the brood comb (chicken feed).

Nothing that starts that way could be reasonably classified as a nuc until there is emerging brood (after drawing comb and making stores in the mean time). By that point, one certainly does have an idea of the health (from seeing the original nest and seeing how they built up).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> Beekeepers, that is anyone performing swarm and feral colony removal, possessing honey bees or used beekeeping equipment is required to be registered with the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. Registered beekeepers are inspected by Apiary Inspectors. Beekeepers selling bees on a regular basis are inspected annually or slightly more than honey producers or pollinators. There is no such pending regulation I am aware of. If you have a complaint or concern you should contact your Apiary Inspector, Jeff Pippin (850)643-1955. Other than checking for diseases and Africanized honey bees, it is up to the buyer just like the plants at a nursery or home store. I am guessing the "bee folks" are other beekeepers because Jeff is the only state employee for Apiary in the district.


This makes sense to me. FL thinks that all beekeepers who sell bees should be inspected for diseases and Africanization. Good. Everybody in the same boat. I see nothing wrong with that.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

It is a ridiculous pipe dream to think this will do anything about Africanised bees. Considering its vaugueness as to purpose, it seems like just more typical Govermental overreach, looking for revenue, or making of laws to squeeze money out of citizens. 

Who's the favored ones that will be allowed to do the removals?

Typical, KTWTD.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

john beeman said:


> ...(I tried to purchase one for $175.00 and was turned down...). The problem lies in unregulated sales. The seller just did a cutout and has very little idea about the health of the bees and the buyer is at the mercy of the seller. If we really want to be "bee rescuers" we are going to have to follow some type of inspection ....unregulated sales of bees from cutouts to buyers is coming to an end...in the state of Florida......Very soon.


:shhhh:

What are you really trying to say? I get the sense something went sour for you on this deal...


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

hex0rz said:


> :shhhh:
> 
> What are you really trying to say? I get the sense something went sour for you on this deal...


Most likely, the seller stuck to his original price, no matter how much he was threatened with a government spanking. And quite likely, told buyer to piss off.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

Maybe the seller didn't feel like driving 2 1/2 hours each way to deliver and install the bees for that price when he has more business than he can keep up with within 50 miles.

.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

We don't have any idea about the health of the bees?

What does that even mean?

The last thing I need - as a seller - is my phone ringing off the wall with customers whose nucs have failed.

My motivation is to stay in business and have repeat customers - not try to make a quick sale with a low-quality product.


.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I suggest that you folks re-read post #8 by _AmericasBeekeeper_, particularly the part where he says ...


AmericasBeekeeper said:


> There is no such pending regulation I am aware of.


Be aware that AmericasBeekeeper's day job is "an Apiary Inspector Supervisor for the State of Florida." One would expect that he would be aware of any pending regulations.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I suggest that you folks re-read post #8 by _AmericasBeekeeper_, particularly the part where he says ...
> 
> Be aware that AmericasBeekeeper's day job is "an Apiary Inspector Supervisor for the State of Florida." One would expect that he would be aware of any pending regulations.


Thank you.

.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

Ooops. Duplicate post.

.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

I think each drone needs to be inspected before it's allowed to take flight.

This will ensure a quality and affordable product for all involved.

I've already patented a drone suction device which analyzes the weight of the bee and sucks it into a temporary holding chamber. At that point, their sperm can be extracted and DNA testing done for each drone's sperm.

It's the only way forward to keep everyone safe from crooked nuc-salespersons and shady bee rescuers.

.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Pat, can you confirm whether you will be using Kickstarter to bring your "drone suction device" to the marketplace? ... or do you prefer Indigogo? 

:lookout:


... will you still remember us after you collect your $10 million ... 


.


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## john beeman (Feb 28, 2016)

Lots of very interesting comments. I thought we all just wanted to "rescue" the honey bees.. Maybe some folks just want to assure profits in spite of what the laws of the state of Florida state. If you are in compliance with the laws then you have nothing to be concerned about....If you are ignorant of the laws you can start with " The 2010 Florida Statutes Chapter 586 " and maybe read statute 586.112 a couple times. I firmly believe that the people who are truly "bee rescuers" will have zero problems with compliance. Compliance solves problems with beekeeping and also helps the new beekeepers feel they can make safe purchases......


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

It's hard to read this thread and not think that if y I u had been sold what you wanted for $175, you would be posting about the great bees you got for a price you wanted to pay, and a little less about unregulated ('unsafe') bee sales.

Point to some specific examples of the problem.


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## bee bud (Mar 15, 2016)

586.045 Certificates of registration and inspection.—
(1) Each beekeeper having honeybee colonies within the state shall apply to the department. 

"shall" does that mean there is a choice?


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## john beeman (Feb 28, 2016)

You have that option to speculate about my motive. But to the beekeepers of Florida the only option is compliance or non-compliance.....


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

john beeman said:


> ...(I tried to purchase one for $175.00 and was turned down...). ..unregulated sales of bees from cutouts to buyers is coming to an end...in the state of Florida......Very soon.


I'm confused you seem to be saying "Hey there are people out there selling a product that they shouldn't be and if they won't sell it to me at a price I name I'm going to threaten them.".


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## Rzrbackbees (Mar 17, 2015)

john beeman said:


> While that my sound like a good deal depending on price....(I tried to purchase one for $175.00 and was turned down...). The problem lies in unregulated sales.


There wouldn't be sales if people like you weren't willing to buy. If the seller had accepted $175.00 this thread would not exist.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bee bud said:


> 586.045 Certificates of registration and inspection.—
> (1) Each beekeeper having honeybee colonies within the state shall apply to the department.
> 
> "shall" does that mean there is a choice?


No. It means that if you don't you are not in compliance with State Law. Just like owning an automobile.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Florida does not tax agriculture and especially not bees. 
Florida has reduced American foulbrood to less than 1% and Africanization since 2012. There are over 4100 registered beekeepers with European bees saturating the 67 counties. Lafayette is the only county with only 5 beekeepers and there aren't too many more folks than that in Lafayette.
It is about supply and demand. They will get what they are asking from you or the next customer. If they will not let you inspect or it is above your "value" go somewhere else. If you are not confident inspecting take someone who is. I do not know any reputable beekeeper that does not want you satisfied with the deal. If they cannot sell hives at that price they will reduce it or have one more hive to manage. Presently they can get expensive because everyone wants IN! The local bee supply companies build newer and bigger warehouses every year and still growing. Bees are on waiting lists from the previous year. Do you see the trend?
America is a free market, meaning if you are not a monopoly you can set the price.


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## john beeman (Feb 28, 2016)

When I was unable to buy the cutout I kept shopping. That's when I discovered the laws of the state from beekeepers who are in compliance with the laws.....Don't worry I not going to turn anyone in....Just pay to have your bee yard inspected, that way you'll be doing a service to the bees and ignorant 1st year bee keepers like myself.......End of story


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

If someone is selling a nuc from a cutout, it is easily determined by looking at the comb. If they have been transitioned to “production comb” and have brood and stores necessary to insure they remain in the nuc and a queen, I would call that a nuc. Also it would mean that the bees had been managed enough to know their defensiveness. The remaining problem is the queen. You do not know if she is 2 months or 3 years old and beginning to fail. When buying nucs, besides the inspection you should always ask how old the queen is. This is a vital piece of knowledge for any hive.

Currently in Florida, registered beekeepers are allowed to remove bees from structures for a fee and use soapy water to eliminate stragglers. We are not certified pest control operators and cannot use pesticides. So there is already legislation in place controlling removals.

I would be interested in knowing who these bee people are that will be proposing this new legislation.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

How about a specific example of the harm you are hoping to prevent?

I've been to many Florida bee meetings (state and regional), and the people buying and selling bees from removals all seem to be happy. It can't be a general problem if it isn't happening in specific cases.....why not cite one?


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

john beeman said:


> I discovered the laws of the state from beekeepers who are in compliance
> 
> 
> ignorant 1st year bee keepers like myself.....



I thought you called Tallahassee?


Don't be ignorant ....there is plenty of information out there and plenty of beekeepers willing to recommend a source for bees if you plan properly.


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## john beeman (Feb 28, 2016)

Lisa Reynes
Ag & Consumer Protection Specialist
Tavares Florida 32778
[email protected]

My conversation with Lisa today was about my hives. However I did bring up the questions about nucs made from cutouts. She said cutout nucs for resale must be inspected by a Florida Ag.& Consumer Specialist before resale. She wanted to know if I knew someone who does resales I said NO..If any of you folks in Florida need more information she will help you.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

john beeman said:


> I spent quite a while today talking to the bee folks in Tallahassee. Our conversation was about so called "bee rescuers" who charge for the cutout and then sell the cutout as a nuc. ..(I tried to purchase one for $175.00 and was turned down...)


So you lied to her?

Do you follow Florida's BMP?

Specifically do you re-queen swarms with proven European stock? Mark those queens of European stock or replace every 6 months? Where do you get those queens? Have your bees been inspected for unwanted races of honey bees?


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## john beeman (Feb 28, 2016)

Mbeck, I am in compliance with the laws of the state of Florida. I am a 1st year beekeeper so I depend on them for instruction. I see you are doing research on the laws....good for you. And yes part of my conversation today was about how to re-queen the swarm I captured. My other bees came from Georgia fully inspected and in compliance....I am not interested in breaking the laws ......Are you ?


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## MangoBee (Jul 13, 2014)

john beeman said:


> Mbeck, I am in compliance with the laws of the state of Florida. I am a 1st year beekeeper so I depend on them for instruction. I see you are doing research on the laws....good for you. And yes part of my conversation today was about how to re-queen the swarm I captured. My other bees came from Georgia fully inspected and in compliance....I am not interested in breaking the laws ......Are you ?


For what its worth, I've had some really nasty bees that came from queens I purchased from queen breeders (they were Italian queens). Bees are bees. Some have great mite resistance, some don't. Some are really gentle and some are really mean. Some are great honey producers and others aren't. They'll probably supercede at some point and you won't even know it if you are not doing regular inspections. If the bees aren't performing as they should or are really mean you can always re-queen. But then you run into the problem of mail-order queens getting "damaged" by the high heat of transit...and not being 100% healthy when they go into your hive, or a mean hive not readily accepting a new queen. 
A lot of queen yards in FL and most likely GA allow the virgin queens to make flights "into the wild"...the breeders just try to flood the area with their drones that possess the characteristics they desire. Since the queen will have many sperm layers from differing drones, you can't be certain that a wild drone didn't mate with her at some point. Just my 2 cents.


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## jakec (May 26, 2015)

this is a strange thread.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

john beeman said:


> Mbeck, I am in compliance with the laws of the state of Florida.I am not interested in breaking the laws .....


I'm not sure you even understand them. 

Where are you going to buy queens?

Are you going to make veiled internet 
threats if they won't let you name your price?


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## john beeman (Feb 28, 2016)

Thank you MangoBee, As it stands right now with the weak hive from the swarm the queen is not doing a good job. The first capped cells were all drone and when I checked last week the bees had capped one queen cell. The comb also looks like it has wax moth damage. So I have been instructed to destroy the comb and replace it with brood comb from the Georgia hive. Hopefully they will build an emergency queen cell and that way the new queen will be from the Georgia stock......I hope it works because time is against the small swarm hive....

Mbeck, I will not buy anything from anyone who does not have their bees and bee yard inspected by the state


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

If it is wax moth damage I would not throw it away or destroy it. You can freeze it to kill the eggs, then cut out the damaged portion and give it back to the bees. But, then again, that's just what I would do.

Alex


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

You realize of course that after the beekeepers in Florida get to a certain size that a decreasing percentage of their hives are actually inspected. I think the percentages go down to 10% for the commercial sized beekeepers.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

john beeman said:


> Lots of very interesting comments. I thought we all just wanted to "rescue" the honey bees.. Maybe some folks just want to assure profits in spite of what the laws of the state of Florida state. If you are in compliance with the laws then you have nothing to be concerned about....If you are ignorant of the laws you can start with " The 2010 Florida Statutes Chapter 586 " and maybe read statute 586.112 a couple times. I firmly believe that the people who are truly "bee rescuers" will have zero problems with compliance. Compliance solves problems with beekeeping and also helps the new beekeepers feel they can make safe purchases......


Nope, I'm not a bee "rescuer", and I doubt if very many beekeepers will call themselves "rescuers". We all have our reasons for staying with these critters for more than one season, but I bet "rescuing the bees" is way down the list for most. I have seen ads in the local craigslist etc from "bee rescuers" that do cut-outs, but the only thing they are rescuing is their own costs. "I'll rescue the bees in your house for $XX!" Hey, they are in it to make a dollar, not for some eclectic do-good. You sound like you oppose the idea of someone earning money doing something that is not completely controlled by the government. Comply, or else!

All states have regulations on beekeeping, which involves inspections. But profit is part of the game. It's not evil.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

My bees are supposed to rescue me. Or at least keep me afloat.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

john beeman said:


> Lots of very interesting comments. I thought we all just wanted to "rescue" the honey bees.. Maybe some folks just want to assure profits in spite of what the laws of the state of Florida state. If you are in compliance with the laws then you have nothing to be concerned about....If you are ignorant of the laws you can start with " The 2010 Florida Statutes Chapter 586 " and maybe read statute 586.112 a couple times. I firmly believe that the people who are truly "bee rescuers" will have zero problems with compliance. Compliance solves problems with beekeeping and also helps the new beekeepers feel they can make safe purchases......


With all due respect, this statement indicates a level of ignorance and naivety that is staggering.

That feel good "bee-rescuer" stuff doesn't put fuel in the truck or food on the table and has NOTHING to do with maintaining a state apiary inspection.

The ANNUAL inspection is a small fee for the APIARY and is done on a portion of the hives that exist on that given DAY. Complying with the inspection has nothing to do with being unable to assure profits - WT? Heck, I put our inspector to work with me evaluating brood patterns and re-queening in the fall (if anything, my profits are HIGHER because of it - the yards where I did this sure looked better in the spring).

It gives NO assurance that you can make a "safe purchase" - That cut out nuc, doubles coming out of almonds, queen cells from a local breeder... all arrived after the inspection, and it's perfectly compliant and legal. 586.112 is COMPLAINT driven and might prevent FURTHER SALES but again has nothing to do with the nuc you did (or did not purchase).


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

john beeman said:


> So I have been instructed to destroy the comb and replace it with brood comb from the Georgia hive. Hopefully they will build an emergency queen cell and that way the new queen will be from the Georgia stock.


Did you send a sample of bees in to Florida department of Ag to have that queen tested?
You must be able to prove that "Georgia" queen is of European descent and free from africianization before you use her to rear queens. Anything less isn't BMP compliance. 

I sure there are those that would discourage you from collecting swarms in the future that can't very quickly be requeened with proven stock. They might perhaps even suggest that playing musical frames is a good way to spread disease. That wouldn't be me, I don't really care what you do with your bees.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I love these kind of threads.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> I love these kind of threads.


You're probably having a ball lately,
as there are lots of them.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Any body ever heard of a guy trying to buy black market bees, cheap, and then threatening the whole state, when he doesnt get his way? If there was nothing hinky adout that, thered be no need to defend, or try to slap everyone with a law. I'd turn him down , too.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

Black market bees? :applause:
that's a good one!


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