# Prevalence of CCD in untreated colonies



## JPK (May 24, 2008)

Curious to hear from folks that keep bees that are not in areas exposed to overt amounts of pesticides and DO NOT treat their bees with chemicals.

Are you seeing incidents that fit the description associated with CCD or not? If so what sort of rate?


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

I don't treat and the really big commerical beek I work for does. Neither of us are seeing CCD in this area. But then again we are not running bees on crops that would be using the nio nicotoids so that may be something. I have heard that in ND and SD those running on Sunflowers that have the new nio nicotoids in the seed are showing huge losses. Got to be something to it wouldn't you say?


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

I think first hand info/feedback from folks is preferable to second/third hand stories.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: Incidence of CCD and Untreated Colonies*

I am confused. From my experiences with CCD, Pesticides and miticides have no correlation with frequency of CCD. I do not used miticides, and have seen no evidence of pesticide problems. I have seen CCD kill everything. The solution was new bees in new equipment.

Roland


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Incidence of CCD and Untreated Colonies*

I am wondering how seriously unconfirmed reports of "CCD" can be taken. We have seen many such reports, which, on further examination, seem more likely to have been caused by the usual suspects, mites and nosema. 

Additionally, wouldn't the survey have to include those who DO treat with chemicals and _haven't_ experienced CCD?
Sheri


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I do not treat and have over 50% loses. I posted videos of huge die offs during cold and wet weather, Nov - Jan and I still see an excess of dying bees. Didn't seem like mites to me.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

JPK said:


> I think first hand info/feedback from folks is preferable to second/third hand stories.


Talk to Tom L. who is on bee source about what happened to his 400 hives on sunflowers this year. Additionally, talk to Lyle Johnson who runs about 40,000 bees on almonds about the number of loses that came from SD and ND. He graded them and can tell you first hand. Unfortunately, my bees were not on sunflowers so I didn't experience these losses. However, since my information is second hand as related to me by those who actually dealt with it and therefore not preferable, you now can contact them for "first hand" feedback.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Cats out of the Bag*

Here I am. Sheri, tell me how it's all my fault I would like to hear it.

Semi to ND, #1 bees, low to no mites. After check, same for nosema. Virtually 100% loss. 80+ lbs surplus honey. I've been sprayed so many times i can't remember them all but never seen anything like this, but I guess if SOMEONE says it's not ccd I get no help. Nothing new there.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Seems like many many folks are against gov't assistance for bee losses.

What can I say? I need some help. But if not forthcoming, I will still make it.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

Tom G. Laury said:


> Seems like many many folks are against gov't assistance for bee losses.


What makes you think that?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't treat, but there are plenty of people in Nebraska who do. No reports from my part of the country of CCD.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

odfrank said:


> I do not treat and have over 50% loses. I posted videos of huge die offs during cold and wet weather, Nov - Jan and I still see an excess of dying bees. Didn't seem like mites to me.


Written in the older editions of the ABC & XYZ of Beekeeping there are to diseases documented.
One is Eucalyptus poisioning
The 2nd one is Spring dwindling
Ernie


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

*Re: Cats out of the Bag*



Tom G. Laury said:


> Semi to ND, #1 bees, low to no mites. After check, same for nosema. Virtually 100% loss. 80+ lbs surplus honey. I've been sprayed so many times i can't remember them all but never seen anything like this


Tom, do you treat prophylactically or are you avoiding chems?

Do you have any idea what you were sprayed with and if you've ever been hit with it before?

What were your bees working? Was is primarily a single crop or multiple good sources to work?


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

*Re: Incidence of CCD and Untreated Colonies*



JohnK and Sheri said:


> Additionally, wouldn't the survey have to include those who DO treat with chemicals and _haven't_ experienced CCD?
> Sheri


Sure, Why not.

I guess what I was looking for was correlation of lack of CCD reports from folks that do not use chemicals and hence have colonies where there is not a high concentration of these same chemicals that are known to accumulate in comb.

If there are folks that use chems and do not see CCD like symptoms I would appreciate it if you also volunteer what chems/treatments you've used on that comb....its likely not a single chemical but a combination that exacerbates/causes issues.

I'm fairly confident that as this issue is looked at by others down the road in a scientific fashion that we're going to find that CCD is likely caused by some combination of chemicals/disease and that it may even be partially/completely self inflicted.


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

odfrank said:


> I do not treat and have over 50% loses. I posted videos of huge die offs during cold and wet weather, Nov - Jan and I still see an excess of dying bees. Didn't seem like mites to me.


Frank, was your video the one with two rows of colonies with large masses of crawling bees in the aisle in between?

If I'm thinking about the right video the first thing I thought of was poisoning not CCD. 

My understanding of CCD symptoms is that more often than not, a large portion of bees either fly off or fail to return to colonies.

Did you do any testing to rule out poisoning/disease?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

JPK said:


> My understanding of CCD symptoms is that more often than not, a large portion of bees either fly off or fail to return to colonies.


Bees that have contracted _N. ceranae_ do not return to the hive and are known as crawlers
Ernie


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

I've never heard anyone make a correlation between CCD and Nosema before. Did I misunderstand your response?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

JPK said:


> I've never heard anyone make a correlation between CCD and Nosema before.


SEE:



> This is the first case report of honeybee colony collapse due to N. ceranae in professional apiaries in field conditions reported worldwide. No other significant pathogens or pesticides (neonicotinoids) were detected and the bees had not been foraging in corn or sunflower crops. The treatment with fumagillin avoided the loss of surviving weak colonies.
> 
> "Honeybee colony collapse due to Nosema ceranae in professional apiaries" Mariano Higes Environmental Microbiology Reports (2009)


ALSO, back in 2007:



> A higher virulence of N. ceranae, if conclusively demonstrated to be the case, could account for the unusual reported course of nosema disease in central and southern Europe over the last few years, in which nosema disease is a year-round phenomenon rather than a spring disease, and is associated with higher colony losses (Hatjina and Haristos, 2005; Higes et al., 2005; Imdorf et al., 2006). Colony level infection experiments in the field are now required to demonstrate a causal link between N. ceranae infection and colony collapse.
> 
> Nosema ceranae has infected Apis mellifera in Europe since at least 1998 and may be more virulent than Nosema apis
> Robert J. Paxton Apidologie 38 (2007) 558–565 Available online


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## Truchaos (Jun 30, 2008)

I don't use chemicals and I've experienced zero loss over the last year. In about 4 weeks we'll see how they fair the severe winter we're experiencing.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> I've experienced zero loss over the last year.


How many years have you had bees, if you don't mind me asking?


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## Truchaos (Jun 30, 2008)

peterloringborst said:


> How many years have you had bees, if you don't mind me asking?


Ok, you asked...

I've been keeping bees since the early 70's when I bought my first bees and equipment from the Sears catalog. Then Varroa came in the 80's and nothing, including Apistan, seemed to work, everything died. 

What inspired me to return to beekeeping is that I quite literally walked away from my apiary back in the 80's. I piled all the dead hives into a big mound of equipment and abandoned it all in a field on some family property. It sat there through the 90's until one day I decided to burn the pile. That's when I noticed that feral bees had moved into the rotting hive bodies and were thriving. My first thought was, maybe I was the problem because the bees seem to be doing okay by themselves, so I thought I'd give it another try.

My thought process on the topic is that I know NOTHING about beekeeping, For the past couple years I've started to locate and read beekeeping books and publications which pre-date 1900. I've noticed we beekeepers keep reinventing the wheel. For example, there is an article in the Feb 09 issue of Bee Culture magazine about a new idea of weighing colonies to map growth. Guess what? That new idea was first posted in the *Oct 1 1899* issue of Bee Culture magazine. I also ask lots of questions I think I know the answers to. The 101 area is my favorite place here on bee source. Doing so has resulted in changing how I view beekeeping. I just assume everything I know is wrong because it typically is. I've also come to believe that many of the "experts" have it wrong too.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> I've been keeping bees since the early 70's when I bought my first bees and equipment from the Sears catalog. Then Varroa came in the 80's and nothing, including Apistan, seemed to work, everything died.


OK, then. You and I are on the same page! It's just that yesterday I attended a talk given by Larry Connor and he said there are always people who get bees and after one year, they are the experts. 

That isn't you, and that isn't me. We have had bees for decades and we know less now than we did then


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

JPK said:


> Did you do any testing to rule out poisoning/disease?


These bees are in a residential area where there is no large acreage spraying. The bees all looked newly hatched and stumbled/were thrown out of the hives during cold and wet spells. The die off continues at a slower pace months later. It looks like some kind of flu virus to me, a plague.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Od I have seen what you are seeing more than once. I associate it with some level of mite infestation, not necessarily a heavy one. There is more to it than just the effects of the mites themselves. Researchers have been telling us to treat only when mite levels reach an impact level so as to avoid overuse of materials. But Late July / early August clean up seems to be critical to overwinter success.


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

I have been in this crazy business for over 30 plus years now.
And yes I guess I am some what of an expert after all this time.
I feel I know less this year than I did last year at this time as to the bee keeping problems we are now having.
So I guess this makes me a expert at what I will probably never know!
Hope Allen Dick can come up with ideas in his testing in the next few weeks.
I saved some frames of honey from CCD dead outs.
Left these frames out to be robbed out by the bees last spring.
There was no flow on or very little of one.
Bees would rob extracted comb, drip boards & what not but wanted nothing to do with frames from these dead outs.
I must add that most of the frames left out to be robbed were new that last spring or only one year old at best.
Made a number of phone calls in an effort to find a lab to test this suposed CCD honey.
Seems no one is set up to do this type of work.
We lost over 65% of the outfit 3 winters ago.
Good thing we don't need borrow money to operate or who knows if we would still be in the bee business.
The crazy thing my son found was that not all of the operation seem to be affected that year.
But the following year the yards that wintered just fine the year before we hit but good as they dropped out as bad as the yards that had problems the year previous.
Back to the CCD honey thing.
I may have foud a lab here in town that is willing to run some tests on the honey I saved from the dead out frames.
I have no idea of the price but the couple that own this lab grew up as farm kids & are real intrested at having a look at this problem.
We also did a lot of talking to people as to what they do for queens & cells in the spring.
This is another very intresting find I must say.
One research group I spoke with over a year ago told me point blank that the only thing that was found in there testing was that bees & people were breathing the same air.
Other than that they could prove nothing.
I have come to the conclusion that this bee keeping problem will more that likely be solved by bee keepers themselvs hopefully.
We as an industry have had to become extremly small group in the ag sector that must fix our problems by ourselfs or perish.
Truthfully I am not so sure this is all such a bad thing.
Just as many of us are I am so sick of this big goverment thing it only seems to get worse every day! 
Then again in thinking this may be just why we have chosen this profession.
No one seems to be standing in line to take our job


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> We as an industry have had to become extremly small group in the ag sector that must fix our problems by ourselfs or perish.
> Truthfully I am not so sure this is all such a bad thing.
> Just as many of us are I am so sick of this big goverment thing it only seems to get worse every day!


Bravo!


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

> Hope Allen Dick can come up with ideas in his testing in the next few weeks.

Just in case there is a misunderstanding, I am not personally doing any testing but mentioned that Jerry Bromenshenk is in California right now looking for smoking guns. he has been working on this for some time now and is convinced he has the answer, but is awaiting peer review. (see quote below)

Any sampling I am involved in is in Canada, doing field work under the supervision of Dr. Medhat Nasr. Officially, there is no CCD in Canada, although high losses have been experienced in the West over the past several winters. 

Sampling has determined that the prime suspects are nosema ceranae and varroa levels well over 1-3% going into winter. A co-ordinated effort by commercial beekeepers under direction of Dr. Nasr this fall has resulted in very low levels for the first time in years going in, and we are waiting expectantly for better results next spring...

Here is Jerry's appeal for co-operators. Call him if you have anything that can help.
---
All

I'm in a hotel in Oakdale tonight. Flew out to check reports of 
widespread bee losses in CA, escalating rental fees, possible shortages. I'm also 
taking samples - looking for two types of bee operations to inspect/sample: 

Those with unusually high losses - assuming anything is left to see/sample, 
AND just as importantly
Those with Great bees, no history of CCD.

Our analyses have provided leads to a very specific pathogen complex that 
we are trying to verify.

I'll be here about a week, traveling up and down the state. I can be 
reached at my [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) e-mail, or my 
cell 406-544-9007.

Thanks

Jerry

P.S. I need contact information - cell phone preferably - since everyone 
is involved in a major push to get bees in to the almonds, hard to reach by 
any means other than cell - which they might answer. Of course, if you 
know where they go to breakfast about mid-morning, give me the address of the 
diner.


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

Allen, I'm accustomed to counting mites/time (mite count/24hr period) but how does one determine a mite load of 1-3%?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Mite load can be determined by putting 250 or so bees in a jar and knocking the mites off them. 1 to 3 % would be less than 10 mites. Many of us (me) don't feel mite drop is an accurate method.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

I have pictures and a little bit of description at http://honeybeeworld.com/diary/2009/diary092009.htm
Scroll down to the 22nd.

The shaker jar can be made from two peanut butter jars and some 6-mesh screen or ordered from http://www.beemaidbeestore.com/

Construction info is in a sidebar at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2008/diary110108.htm

Comparisons between controlled laboratory shakes done later and one-minute on the spot field shakes done by hand show that the field test generally underestimates the load by 10 to 20%, (i.e. 1 or 2 mites out of 10) but is plenty close for decision making on the spot. 

A shake that turns up zero to about 7 or 8 mites is of minor concern, but we occasionally see over 40 (called Too Many To Count). In such cases, immediate action is needed and the prognosis is not good.

In Southern Alberta this fall, most samples were near-zero, with most in a yard showing zero and one or two showing a one to three.

Three would be one percent by our reckoning.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Cats out of the Bag*



Tom G. Laury said:


> Here I am. Sheri, tell me how it's all my fault I would like to hear it.


Tom, I just got here to catch up with this thread and saw this and feel terrible if you think I was singling you (or anyone else here for that matter) out. I was not talking about you or the other few experienced beeks I know that have reported CCD. I know there are cases where one is left wondering what killed them: there weren't mites, no nosema, etc.
Again, I was NOT referring to the many beekeepers that have the experience to know there are a myriad of other things that can kill their colonies and recognise CCD as something else.

I was referring to some mostly very new beekeepers that I have personally talked to and some of the very new beekeepers we have heard from on Beesource. It seems now that CCD is making the headlines some of these new beekeepers think they have CCD when their colony dies.
Many of these new beekeepers are trying to go treatment free, thus I was commenting on the fact that in this survey, if a new beekeeper trying to go treatment free says they have CCD, how can we be sure it wasn't mites or nosema. When asked about mites, no, many did not check for them, when asked about nosema, some don't have a clue what nosema even is. I have even heard reports of obvious starvation blamed on CCD. 
I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Sheri


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Tom G. Laury said:


> Od I have seen what you are seeing more than once. I associate it with some level of mite infestation, not necessarily a heavy one. There is more to it than just the effects of the mites themselves. Researchers have been telling us to treat only when mite levels reach an impact level so as to avoid overuse of materials. But Late July / early August clean up seems to be critical to overwinter success.


"There is more to it than just the effects of the mites themselves."

In the middle and end of July I made 16 divides, 5 frame nucs. 5 Velbert, 5 Purvis Italian, 6 Koehnen Italian. Two Koehnens were from a small cell hive. The mother hives were strong and thriving. The nucs got the brood rearing break. I don't think I spotted a mite during my efforts. They died the identical deaths and also at the 50% rate of undisturbed hives. I agree, it is not the mite themselves, but something possibly associated with them. I see DWV throughout the fall and winter and suspect the mass did off is IAPV or similar.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Of the people experiencing CCD or unexplained mass die-offs, are these die-offs in stationary hives, or in migratory hives? I was under the impression that migratory hives were affected by CCD moreso than stationary hives.

_The crazy thing my son found was that not all of the operation seem to be affected that year.
But the following year the yards that wintered just fine the year before we hit but good as they dropped out as bad as the yards that had problems the year previous._

After you extracted honey from the yards with die-offs, did you use those extracted supers to put on hives in the healthy yard the following year, which then came down with the same symptoms? Or did you try to keep the extracted supers from the CCD yards isolated from other hives?

If you had some kind of disease, it is possible it was spread by honey supers moved from CCD hives and put on healthy hives.


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## Tina 2Bees (Feb 13, 2010)

Hi all,
I'm new to the forum, but have been a beekeeper for about 20 years. 

I am in one of the commercial operations based out of ND that is experiencing large losses this year. I posted another thread called Crashing bees to describe what we are seeing in our hives. So far, we are down 50%, and more seem to be dropping off daily. I know 4 other beekeepers from ND that are here in CA this spring with half of their bees dead, and crashing. 
Some of these beekeepers don't have high nosema counts. We have nosema, but no mite problem.

It's seems like they are eating the pollen stored from last summer right about now too, and the honey. There are many fields of sunflowers and corn, and wheat (which is now being sprayed with a neo-nic fungicide by some farmers) in our area where the bees were traveling through and to.

This coming summer, we are going to talk to farmers and see what they are planting, and just try to stay away from neo nic. crops, it just seems like to much of a coincidence! And, who can afford to take the chance?
Tina


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Tina, a reply to your other thread….


Tom G. Laury said:


> Were you in the sunflowers? Many are having 100% loss out of sunflowers.


And from this thread.


Tina 2Bees said:


> There are many fields of *sunflowers* and corn, and wheat (which is now being sprayed with a neo-nic fungicide by some farmers) in our area where the bees were traveling through and to.


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

Tina 2Bees said:


> I am in one of the commercial operations based out of ND that is experiencing large losses this year. I posted another thread called Crashing bees to describe what we are seeing in our hives. So far, we are down 50%, and more seem to be dropping off daily. I know 4 other beekeepers from ND that are here in CA this spring with half of their bees dead, and crashing.
> Some of these beekeepers don't have high nosema counts. We have nosema, but no mite problem.


Tina, do you happen to have any info from the farmers that are doing the spraying what the timing of fungicide/pesticide application is?

I know up here they are not allowed to spray any chems when a crop/flower is in bloom. As long as they do so when not in bloom the effects on bees are usually nil to minimal. If they are spraying while in bloom I would expect high impact on bees.


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## Tina 2Bees (Feb 13, 2010)

JPK - 
Farmers are prett good about telling beekeepers about spraying the crops around home, and I don't think we were sprayed. . . but I am under the impression that with the neo-nicotinoid sunflowers the chemical is applied to the seed, and the plant becomes toxic for the life of the plant, including the pollen, nectar, and maybe even dew on young leaves. Again, I do need to do more research, and am not clear on the topic.


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

the weather last summer in dakotas and Mn was unusual as we had a weak flow in July but yet Sept was ok. 

many many commercial beeks predicted a crash this winter as they or others had left supers on longer then usual in fall to make up lost ground in honey production. 

we all know the affects of too late mite treatments - the bees die later in winter or come into spring and never build up. 

if you have no data - no mite rolls - no virus checks (available from bee research in Montana) you are left with dead bees and a lot of speculation. 

talk to leading bee researchers anywhere and they all concur that mites are still the number one source or indirect source (via weaken hives and viruses and other interactions) of lost hives etc.


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

Tina
Please help me out if you can.
Were the sunflowers the oil seed or the confectonary type.
If you are contacting the farmers PLEASE ask them as to what ther seed source is
( BRAND of seed used )
I know it is a long shot but maybe one of them have a full sack, half sack or even an empty sack with the ID tag on it.
Please PM me if you can!


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

JPK said:


> Allen, I'm accustomed to counting mites/time (mite count/24hr period) but how does one determine a mite load of 1-3%?


http://www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/varroathreshold.pdf

From page 4 of the capa bee page

IV. Converting from Sticky Board Counts to Percent Infestation

Actual Percentage Infestation compared to Natural Drop 
0-1% 0 - ½ drop
3% 18 drop
5-6% 33-43 drop


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

Drops can be quite variable, and that is why alcohol washes are done if accuracy is important. I did a comparison on Saturday September 26th, 2009. 

From http://honeybeeworld.com/diary/2009/diary092009.htm here is my calculation based on a 100-day mite lifespan and 35,000 bees.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

There is something that i think is missing from this thread. Tina mentioned that the bees are eating the pollen from last summer.

If your weather was a crazy as our weather was last year, there is a good chance that the pollen has no protien....bear with me here please...

two years ago we had massive rains...I am in Manitoba just above ND. The rains did not stop. We got our hay tested and the results came in Jan 09. The hay had the protien level of straw, which if you understand anything about feeding cows...no protien for the cows. The TDN...total digestable nutrients was as i said like feeding straw, no value. We ended up supplementing the cows so they could make it to calving, then rebreed on time and still feed a calf. Had we not done that, the cow might have calved a really weak calf, the calf performed weakly and the dam would more than likely not bred back on time
...what does this have to do with bees....

our bees foraged on the same fields the cows did. I have no scientific data to back this up, however, if the hay was garbage, it stands to reason that the stressed out plants pollen was garbage. I mean the apple will not fall far from the tree. 
...what does this have to do with bees
bees that feed on stressed out plants will not get all the TDN they need to survive. Basically, the pollen had the TDN or protien of straw.

If a cow who is 1200+ pounds can not survive on straw, can not raise a healthy calf on straw, and can not breed back...how can we expect the bees to?

So lets fast forward to the summer of 2009

again the plants are stressed. Too much water, not enough water = not enough TDN in the pollen where the bees get the protien. Add to it the # of no fly days due to the poor weather, add to it the incredible honey flow when the bees should have been preparing for winter...which shortens their life span ( a forage lives less time if the bee is gathering in the summer than when trying to keep warm over the winter) . So you have the young bees who were meant to grow up and over winter in a cluster now foraging when they were to be preparing for winter. Everything was thrown out of whack.

Is it any wonder we have hives crashing at this point, based from a weather related nutrition stand point, I would say NO. Would this be a stress which would allow other diseases to become more prevailent...yes. 
The weather stresses, the feed stresses will lower the disease threshold. So for example...If mite pressure at September 15th was 2%...in a normal year, 2% would be acceptable and wintering success would be good. However, with the stress on the bees with the odd fall flow, and with the lack of protien in the summer flow, that 2% might be above the threshold for mite pressure. Since now the stress is protien, an odd fall and mites, the threshold for the bees to withstand any nosema type will now instead of 1 000000 spores could be 500 000 spores or less.

For us as beekeepers to be surprised at bee losses this spring is crazy....again back to the addage everything we do here and now affects our bees 6 months to a year down the road. This includes weather, plant stress, mite loads and disease pressure.

Please, we need to remember, "just because bees brought in pollen, does not mean the pollen had the protien in it." If a plant is stressed due to weather or even plant pests...like lagus bugs or alfalfa weavles on alfalfa, the plant will not produce the "*quality*" of protien it normally does. The volume will be there, the but the quality will not. 

Just a reminder for those who are not ag growers, plants in a field take several years to recover from stresses...just look at the perennials in your garden.

Cows take two years to recover from a bad summer/winter (drought/flooding, poor quality hay). Why should bees be any different. Plants need atleast a year if not more to recover from a bad year. Maybe if we took a look at this we might realize nutrition has alot to play---or the lack of nutrition.


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## Tina 2Bees (Feb 13, 2010)

We have samples going to MT today - then at least we will have a baseline :applause:


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

honeyshack, excellent points about nutrition, that many of us probably did not realize. So, do you then feed supplements to give your bees the nutrition they need? 

And Sheri, your earlier observation about newbies blaming colony death on CCD when it was starvation is right on also. That's why a post-mortem is crucial. Its also like newbies calling a hot Italian hive Africanized... 

Seems like the learning curve is so much steeper today than 20-30 years ago, and the frustration and anxiety levels that much higher also. 

I miss the good old days, but man, they're gone forever!


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

I have to say I agree 100% with honeyshack. I've seen this before.


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

It necessarily makes you also wonder about the quality of commercial pollen patties that folks purchase.....if they were made with pollen that has effectively no protien/nutritional value then dropping these on your colonies as a substitute will accomplish little.

The hard part is going to be how to tell what the quality of the patty you're buying is.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

When we added pollen to our sub in the past, we did it as a 'flavor' so the bees would eat the sub.We assumed old dried pollen was worthless nutritionally. The nutrition is in the yeast. 
I also agree with honeyshack. But our losses have corresponded with the drought here in California. Some of us speculated that the pollen was lacking nutrition for the bees.
Also Buds post about leaving the supers on late. Thats an old joke(not funny) around here. 
"We left the supers on late to get an extra 25 lbs of honey, but the hives crashed and we lost $150 almond pollination"


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## mbholl (Dec 16, 2007)

Also noticed that hives seemed to go downhill when they start eating their reserves. Never been near sunflowers or corn, tho. Been trying to figure out what 'bad' got into the pollen - never thought what pollen might be lacking! thanks, it makes sense.

After several years of drought here in CA, no wonder the bees are struggling !

Do bees store dry sub mixes like they do pollen? Would this be way to enhance nutritional value of pollen? Patties in the hive, tubs of dry sub outside? I see the dry sub being hauled in just like pollen. Maybe they mix it with the pollen before storing.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Allen Dick said:


> based on a 100-day mite lifespan and 35,000 bees.


Do I understand you correctly? Varroa mites live for 100 days? I didn't know that. How many times during their life do they reproduce?


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

JPK said:


> It necessarily makes you also wonder about the quality of commercial pollen patties that folks purchase.....if they were made with pollen that has effectively no protien/nutritional value then dropping these on your colonies as a substitute will accomplish little.
> 
> The hard part is going to be how to tell what the quality of the patty you're buying is.


That is why any "reputable" company selling pollen patties should have a guaranteed feed analysis like they do for cattle feed.
This would incorporate at the bear minimum..
TDN---total digestable nutrients
Fat
protien
and fibre.
It should include basic vitamins and trace minerals as well, but that might be asking to much




In cows, when the TDN reaches the same or near the same level as fibre, that is when you have the comparable to straw feed. In cows you can visibly see when feed is "out of whack" Cows where you have to stand 10 feet back from their back sides cause they are shooting out, have a high protien diet, low in fibre. When you see them pooping out and it mounds up like cool whip when you dish it out, results in a high fibre diet, and not getting enough TDN. When both are in sink the patty is a nice formed flat patty that the final drop will splash up a bit....yes to much info...
...how that matches with bees i'm not sure. The only way i can tell is by how they behave or do not behave rather than how they poop. 

As well when it comes to cows, a balanced mineral is important. Without it, breed back is a serious problem, retained placentas are hard on cows, milk quality and colostrum quaility are poor. Foot rot, lumpy jaw, white mucsle disease, milking fever, and a whole host of other problems can be attributed to poor protien and mineral consumption.

In bees...i am thinking, poor build up, poor disease management (by the bees), weak emerging brood, shorter life spans and more would be the result of poor nutrition and lack of minerals in the feed.

Some how we as beekeepers need to push the pollen sellers for a guaranteed feed analysis. Chicken, pig, cattle, any other livestock have it....so should we.

Just looked at my bag of bee pro

Crude protien 40%
fat not less than 3.8%
Ash Max 7%
Moisture 10%
Understand that crude protien is different that TDN There is a formula to get the TDN but that is not something i am strong at

Global patties is :
http://www.globalpatties.com/pages/specs.htm


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

loggermike said:


> Also Buds post about leaving the supers on late. Thats an old joke(not funny) around here.
> "We left the supers on late to get an extra 25 lbs of honey, but the hives crashed and we lost $150 almond pollination"



this is very true. It is like looking at a snapshot of the "here and now", and not really looking at the big picture and realizing what might happen down the road with the decision I made today...


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

> Do I understand you correctly? Varroa mites live for 100 days? I didn't know that. How many times during their life do they reproduce? 

For my purposes, 100 days has been a useful number, however mitye life expectancy depends on many things. In summer, when they can be in brood, life is easy. In winter, when they have to hang onto a bee and wait, life is harder. 

Some bees groom more and in some bees, the number of phoretic mites compared to those in brood may be more -- or less. For a mite, phoretic life is risky. Fall down out of the cluster, and you are toast unless a bee goes by fairly close.

In VSH hives, being in the brood does not guarantee reproduction,since the bees will disrupt the process and prevent development of the progeny, even if they do not kill the foundress.

How many times do they reproduce? I don't know, but I am sure some do, and a quick Google should turn up the life cycle of the varroa mite. 

Try this: http://www.google.com/search?q=life+cycle+of+the+varroa+mite


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

StevenG said:


> So, do you then feed supplements to give your bees the nutrition they need?


I place out pollen feeders in the spring with Bee Pro powder. As well, I drop pollen patties in the hives. It seems to help the weaker hives whose energy is in brood build up and decreases their need to send out as many foragers to get the goods they need. They can then focus on feeding the brood and themselves for a bit longer. In the spring of 2009, if i remember correctly, I went through 3 pounds of pollen patties per hive and almost 4 gallons of syrup before they started to store. But then the weather was most uncoperatative and we had no dandilion flow.
In the fall, i gave each hive a minimum of 1.5 patties + syrup and would have given more if the weather allowed...i hope it was enough


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

. The average life expectancy for Varroa mites is about 50 days.


http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/rf/varroa/varroa.html





"It is the absolute right of the state to supervise the formation of public opinion." Joseph Paul Goebbels" Jesse's Café Américain

"


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

> The average life expectancy for Varroa mites is about 50 days. http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/rf/varroa/varroa.html

If only things were that simple.


From my 2002 study on which I based my monitoring, and which is available at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2002/diary101002.htm#mitedrop

ARS.says: _"The average life expectancy for Varroa mites is about 50 days". _​
MAAREC says: _"Female mites produced in the summer live 2 to 3 months, and those produced in the fall live 5 to 8 months. Without bees and brood, the mites can survive no more than 5 days. They can, however, live in a comb with sealed brood at 68 ° F for up to 30 days."_​
Personally, I'll go with the MAAREC info and consider the Tucson page to be a generalization for purposes of education. Also, remember that Tucson is Tucson. I have seen swarms in January near Tucson.​

For my purposes, at the times of year that I do drops, 100 days works well. My recent comparison to alcohol wash this fall verified that number, to my mind, at least.​ 
Mite drops are necessarily a very rough guide. Even alcohol wash does not account for the mites in brood.​


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Allen, when I worked for NYS Apiary Inspection I was instructed to take the sample of bees for an ether roll sampling or an alcohol wash sampling from a capped brood comb, making sure that the queen wasn't there. In your opinion, is that the best place to take the sample? 

Another question is, can one extrapolate w/ any accuracy how many mites there are in the hive according to how many mites one finds in the sample? The answer I usually get is, "No, there are too many variables."

One time I was inspecting a yard and needed to take another sample. Which I didn't remember until after closing the hive. So, I thought that I'd be clever and just scoop a bunch of bees off of the front of the hive, where they were bearding. No mites found. I didn't believe it, so I went back into the hive and took the sample from the brood comb. Mites found. I don't recall how many. I don't think it was alot. Probably 7 or 8, but not over 10.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

> ...I was instructed to take the sample of bees for an ether roll sampling or an alcohol wash sampling from a capped brood comb

Yes. That is what we do. I suppose the main thing is to be consistent, but near the brood is where the mites tend to be.

> Another question is, can one extrapolate w/ any accuracy how many mites there are in the hive according to how many mites one finds in the sample? The answer I usually get is, "No, there are too many variables."

That is very true, since the percentage of phoretic mites of the total mites is dependant on the season (brood area), the strain of bees, and other factors.

> ...I thought that I'd be clever and just scoop a bunch of bees off of the front of the hive, where they were bearding. No mites found. I didn't believe it, so I went back into the hive and took the sample from the brood comb. Mites found. I don't recall how many. I don't think it was alot. Probably 7 or 8, but not over 10

Interesting. That anedote illustrates how variable sampling can be. As well as location in the hive, time of day and flow conditions probably have an influence, too.

We actually have to take two samples, since the nosema one should come from outer combs and the varroa from near the brood. A friend has a little vacuum he likes to use and when I did his hives he wanted to use it and gathered flying entrance bees, not the ones from the outer combs. I used the vacuum on another outfit later before deciding it was too much trouble. The lab people could tell which ones I used it on.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Back in 1988 I participated in gathering bee samples for Gard Otis of University of Guelph. We did this on the US side of the St. Lawrence Seaway. Doug McRory and some of his Inspectors came over to take samples also. They had a nice simple hand held car vac w/ a jar connected to the underside and a 1/2 inch tube at the mouth of the vac, battery run. We just cracked the deeps apart and sucked up a sample of bees.

Last summer, at the ESHPA (empire state honey producers association) summer picnic Allison Skinner ( i forget her married name now) used the same sort of vac to suck up some bees from the entrance of hives for nosema testing. Found 'em.

You Canadians are some clever, buy.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The average life expectancy for Varroa mites is about 50 days.
>http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/rf/varroa/varroa.html

That may be the average, but obviously the ones in winter live longer or there wouldn't be any left in the spring...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I bet there are some folks who would be surprised to know that the average life span of a bee is longer than 6 weeks. It is, isn't it?


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