# Buy a russian breeder queen?



## Edward G (Aug 26, 2006)

I'm thinking about buying a russian breeder queen this year from Louisiana. They cost $300 each.

Rather than buy 25 new queens, I can raise my own and they will be varroa resistant, so won't have to treat so much. Maybe eventually sell some hybrids and nucs.

Does anybody have some comments or suggestions on this idea?

Ed G.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I would go with NWC or Minasota Hygenics for a breeder queen. 

to lower the cost, have some people invest with you in your area.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

If you want to raise comparable queens to the Russian breeder queen that you buy, you'll need to have Russian drones available and be able to II the new queens.

I'm not sure the Russians are truly "Varroa resistant" (I AM sure that someone will jump in this point). I think of them more along the lines of, "Varroa tolerant," but I believe management to control Varroa still helps Russian bees (I'm guessing that someone will jump in here to state flatly that Russian bees need no assistance against Varroa).


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

I check some Mini Nuc that i was treating with apistan they were on their 3rd queen when i treated went back through 1 hour after putting in the 1/2 strip that i had cut in half the Italians had 25 mites and the Russian had only 7 mites.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Edward 

if you buy a Russian Breeder Queen If you will requeen every hive in 2007 these will make a cross in the worker population and if you were to raise queens from these you will have a hybrids. but what i would do is in 2008 buy you another breeder and raise queens with her and let them mate with your 2007 Russians Drones they will be Russian. this way you will have a higher % of Russian Blood. Just populate the area good with Drones from your 2007 Russians Queens.


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## Edward G (Aug 26, 2006)

Thanks for those responses.

I know that Russians are not a silver bullet, but I'm guessing they are better than what I have now (carniolans with lots of mites)

I guess I could buy some drones somewhere.

Or I could just have hybrid queens.

I am just exploring this as a possibility. I think it is interesting.


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## Edward G (Aug 26, 2006)

If I want to raise pure russian queens, could I buy a breeder russian, let her raise some drones in an isolated location, then begin to raise queens that mate with those drones?

Or is this inbreeding not a good idea? In which case, I would need to find a source of pure russian drones.

Obviously, I'm no genetisist. But I am fascinated by this possibility. There is no one in my area that I know of raising Russians, (or any other queens for that matter) and I am getting tired of paying ever increasing shipping costs.


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## Edward G (Aug 26, 2006)

"geneticist"

can't even spell it.

sorry


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## flathead (Nov 1, 2006)

I opted to buy the open mated queens(nuc) from Harper instead of the pure ones.

We have 10 nucs (russians) coming in April 2007 and the two we got last year are doing well.

While I am learning beekeeping and regressing, the open mated will do nicely.

I really like those Harper bees.


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## Edward G (Aug 26, 2006)

Velbert,
Your pictures are awesome. You obviously know what you are doing and have lots of experience.
Ed


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

If you raise queens from the breeder and take those queens and re queen your hives.And mark her so you know the Russian raised queen is still in the hive.

The Queens that you raised and put into your hives when they raise drones they will be pure Russians it does not mater what the queen mated with. the drone eggs are not fertilized they will be 100 % make up of what the breeder Queen is.
So in 2008 if you were to buy another Russian Breeder and let those queens you raised from her mate with the drones from the Russian raised queens in 2007 You will have a higher % of A Russian Stock.With exceptions with matings out side of the Russian Drones So let the 2007 Russian queens raise plenty of drones to mate with the 2008 Queens you raised.

[ February 01, 2007, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Velbert ]


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I agree Velbert, you have one heck of a web site there. Are your queens all Russian now? I recall someone saying that they bought Russian X NWC from you last year. Do russians get more or less swarmy when crossed with other carnies?


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## Edward G (Aug 26, 2006)

flathead,
You are fortunate to live so close to the source of russian queens in the US. I don't even want to think about what shipping cost of 7 nucs to Maine would be.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks, No Have some MHG Stock And some NWC. My Russians are not near as swarmy as they first was,or runny across the comb but they still like to but heads but not quite as often, Got a Russian Breeder Coming from Harpers going to cross some of them with NWC Drones and hope to raise some Queens from them this Fall to have a good hybrid.


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## middlesattrefarm (Jan 3, 2007)

I saw that Glenn was selling Russian breeder queens for $100. I would say that there would be little problem with inbreeding, due to the fact that the russian stock has been open mated in seclusion.
I got my Russians from one of the people involved in the original releases for testing, and found that they are a good bee, and gentle with the occassional mean queen.
Varroa resistance was good, BUT, they go through several times with NO BROOD! That would help keep the population of varroa down with any stock.
I do feel that the traceal mite resistance is the silver bullet, no double trouble with the pests.


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## Edward G (Aug 26, 2006)

Velbert,
I think I'm getting it. Just have to think a little more about this.

First generation queens from the breeder will lay worker eggs that are crossed. But drone eggs will be pure russian because they are not fertilized and come directly from the mother breeder. What matters is keeping the drones pure. If I can get all my hives requeened with queens from the breeder, that would be the best.

If the first generation queen survives next winter and lays drones next year, they will still be pure russian, and they could mate with a second breeder queen.

How am I doing?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

You buy a breeder queen and raise a few dozen daughters from her. The daughter queens will be pure russian but will be open mated with whatever drones are available. This does not matter. The daughter queens will lay eggs that produce pure russian drones. So...

The second year you buy another russian breeder queen and raise queens from her. Your other colonies are now producing pure russian drones (as daughters from your first queen) so when your new queens mate, they will tend to mate mostly with the pure russian drones.

The only problem with this is that the genetic base is pretty restricted.

Fusion


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## Edward G (Aug 26, 2006)

Fusion,
Thanks for your clear explaining.

Isn't it a good thing to restrict the genetic pool, if the traits are desirable?

Ed


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Within reason it is ok to limit diversity. ie one breeding cycle.

Due to the bee's gentics lethal factors come up quickly. (Brother Adam Breeding the Honeybee)

But on the other hand, unrestricted open mating gives you no control over your program. Its a delicate balance. And part of the fun!

FWIW
Albert


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

"Your other colonies are now producing pure russian drones (as daughters from your first queen) so when your new queens mate, they will tend to mate mostly with the pure russian drones." -Fusion_power

Assuming, of course, that you have a large area well-saturated with Russian colonies. If you have a yard of Russian colonies and the queens fly some distance to mate, they still may not be mating with Russian drones.


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## Edward G (Aug 26, 2006)

I've been reading Laidlaw's book on queen breeding and genetics. The mechanics of raising queens seems fairly easy, but the genetics is difficult for me to understand. Maybe the Brother Adam book is next on my reading list.

It sounds like hybrid queens may be more desirable than purebreds (if there is such a thing as a purebred queen) Maybe it's just a question of degree rather than all or nothing.

There is a lot to learn here, and yes, it is fun.

How far away from home can a queen fly to mate?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

From what I've read it looks like typically the queen flies a couple of miles. Sometimes she flies much further, like 8 miles or maybe more. It's hard to say what the outer limit of a diminishing number is for sure.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Edward G - 
I have 5 colonies headed by Velbert's queens now as well as 2 headed by daughters I raised from one of his queens. 
If you wait until summer and do some increase buying several + shipping Queens is a fraction of the price of a single nuc+ shipping. 
All of the colonies are doing Fantastic so far. My first two colonies were 1 carniolan and 1 italian. So that's what I'm comparing to. The Russian/NWC colonies yet to come through the first winter but I know they went in strong as could be and I'm seeing a lot of cleaning and good activity right now. Also the OB hive is headed by one of his.
If you are interested in bees suited better to Maine than the standard Italian package, I highly recommend Velbert's R/NWC mutts. I'm sorry to hear of your mite problems. I'm definitely not miteless here also but the Apiguard seems to so far have kept them in check (not to mention the zillions I dragged out on SBB.
Also, I understand Bob Egan (Skowhegan) is taking orders for overwintered Carniolan 4 frame nucs - $75.00. Where did you get your current Carni's? 
-E

[ February 03, 2007, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Maine_Beekeeper ]


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## Edward G (Aug 26, 2006)

First, I just want to thank everyone who is posting on this thread. I am enjoying the discussion and I appreciate all the suggestions and input from every single post.

Just to give some history:
I have fourteen hives now. My most recent queens came from Koehnen's in California. They are Carniolans, but I think some of them have superceded.

I am just now realizing the importance of queens as one aspect of a non-chemical approach to varroa.

My hives have varroa because I have let it get out of control. I am still learning on this one. My first year, when I only had two hives, I used Apistan. That was the year that resistant mites made national headlines. I stopped using Apistan.

I have tried Apilife-var and Apiguard, and I think they are good, but difficult to time with temperatures and nectar flow.

My next thought is to raise my own queens, keep it local, and work toward more small cell comb.

I am envious of you guys who don't treat for varroa.

My approach to learning about beekeeping so far has been to just jump in and try something. I have lost a lot of hives that way, but I have learned a lot too.

About queen matings flights, do queens look for drones that are miles away from home? Does this mean that a virgin queen will avoid mating with drones from her home yard?

Maine Beek- Sounds like your bees are in good shape. I like your idea about waiting for summer queens. I may try some of Velberts. I may still buy a russian breeder. Yes, I read about the Carni nucs in Uncle Henry's


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