# New Beekeeper from Western MA, USA



## Retroguy (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

Welcome! You've picked a good place to land when it comes to information.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

Welcome Steve. G


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## radallo (Oct 28, 2015)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

Hi Steve,

welcome! Be ready to find your own "compromise" in beekeeping, since any "natural beekeeping" effort will always be a compromise.

Ask yourself simple questions like: why do I keep bees? (you already gava an answer.. "I want my own honey"), why do I want to be natural? Set up your own goal. 

Would be interesting to hear about your exeprience with wine/mead/ciders.. since I had some experience with beer&single-origin honey to flavour...

I might be in MA in Feb.. I can recommend you also to attend a Honey Class.. you will learn a lot about bees through its product (which is also your main goal so far, to my understanding)

Good luck


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

Hi Steve,

Welcome to Beesource!

I am from the Berkshires originally and now live in Rensselaer County, so not all that far from you.

Initially I wanted to be whatever it is that is dubbed "natural", but found I could not keep my bees without treating for varroa - and my bees are all swarms in an area with lots of feral colonies, so likely even farther away from treatments than package bees.

There is a broad continuum on the treatment spectrum. I don't treat for most things "just in case", but I do kill varroa because otherwise I'd just have continually struggling, and eventually, dead colonies. And that's not something I am willing to subject my bees to just because I'd prefer not to treat. 

I have had good luck wintering, hope you have the same.

Enjambres


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## Jim Brewster (Dec 17, 2014)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

Welcome Steve!

I'm also a first-year beek, and finding my balance on the natural/treatment spectrum. Where I do draw the line is "hard" chemical treatments. No synthetic miticides in my hives. But from what I read and my limited experience, the "soft" treatments like thymol and organic acids are on par with the "hard" when it comes to knocking down mite loads; with any treatment you need to know the appropriate application and follow it. 

If/when I reach a big enough scale I can experiment with treatment-free or "Bond" yards, and try to select for the best survivors, but that takes a lot of colonies and being able to afford heavy losses for awhile. In the meantime I see no contradiction between treating to keep myself in bees and taking steps like requeening with resistant stock, bringing in feral survivors, etc., to minimize the need for treatment. After all, I'm still at the very beginning of learning bee husbandry, and I can't continue learning without bees!


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

"What started as a simple idea to produce a bit of honey has turned into an obsession with helping to promote and facilitate the continued survival of this fascinating creature."

I have collected and trapped quite a few swarms and have done many cutouts. I'm actually about to go do an emergency cutout (again) from a 150 year old plantation house today, weather permitting. I also have purchased a couple of Baton Rouge queens. My bees are near an immense inland wetland system with, apparently, an established feral population. I don't feed my bees except in emergent situations (like the cutout I'm about to do). When I feed it is generally capped honey from healthy hives. I use a mixture of frame types including foundationless and some 4.9 plastic. I don't use any wax foundation. I have not treated the bees, and I plan to not treat. I have not had significant losses. The losses I have had have generally been from newly hived cutouts absconding (or drifting due to the loss of a queen in a bee vac). I hear about losses from treated hives or what are referred to as improperly treated hives. 

I don't recommend that anyone, and certainly not anyone north of me, try to do what I have done. That is because I don't want to be responsible if they sustain losses. I expect to walk out and see substantial losses every time I inspect. It simply has not happened yet. Bees have, for millennia, overcome natural enemies and predation. Most recently they have survived successive waves of wax moths, EFB, AFB, _nosema_, and small hive beetles. I am drawn to methods like rotational grazing, grass finishing, non-medicated, and pastured, as opposed to pen or cage raised livestock. I may well be wrong; it's just who I am and, more importantly, what I enjoy. I respect those who use other methods and successfully feed not only their own families but millions of other families as well, and I wish them well.


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*



Jus144tice said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am attempting to bring my bees through the winter with no chemical treatments performed to date or planned.


I was a follower of this site long before I was a member. Each February there will be the inevitable posts from people asking why their hive(s) died over the winter. I am always amused at their bewilderment; particularly when they don't initially mention that they were treatment free. It's as though it didn't occur to them that this may be the issue.

I am a novice and am always hesitant to provide advice. But as a fellow New Englander I volunteer this. Nobody, but nobody, wants to deal with the time, effort, and expense of treating their bees. It is perfectly ok to be treatment free. But you really need a _strategy_ before you eschew mite treatment. Simply saying that you aren't going to treat will almost certainly bring predictable results.

For instance, do you have an idea of your mite counts? Perhaps you are fine and don't in fact have an issue. But if you don't know then you are leaving it to chance.


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

Sorry, double post...


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

Welcome Steve!


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## Jus144tice (Nov 11, 2015)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

Thank you all for the warm welcome and tips!

Radallo, more than happy to share my mead-making experience. In fact, I'll follow-up with a post sharing my base recipe and pointers. I will look into honey classes, I did not realize such a thing existed. Also, great point calling out the need to articulate a goal, I will follow up with a post stating my goal as well.

Enjambres, good to hear from a local beekeeper - I live in Berkshire county but work in Albany, so to me they are both local  If I find my hives struggling to survive due to varroa, I suspect I will adopt a similar approach. I did not realize this area was high in feral colonies. I have noticed honeybees around, I always assumed they were from other beekeepers, not feral colonies. How are you determining that your bees are from feral colonies and not swarms from other beekeepers?

Jim B, glad to know I'm not the only first year beekeeper looking to find that balance! I initially had the same thoughts about the "soft" treatments, but I've read that the acid-based treatments can lower the PH beyond safe levels for the micro-organisms in the hive and the essential oil based treatments can interfere with the smells of the hive, which is very crucial to bees communicating in the dark. It seems any unnatural substance introduced into a hive will have *some* soft of an impact, though I'm sure there are varying degrees of ramifications depending on the substance(s) used. I have heard it takes a lot of hives to truly experiment with treatment-free options, so perhaps I am jumping the gun a bit on this.

Riverderwent, it is exactly these types of experiences from folks using foundationless or small-cell foundation, using natural feeding/treatment methods, and reporting low levels of loss that entice me to go that route. It is very encouraging to hear from folks who have found success using such methods.

Beerz, I absolutely agree that a strategy is important. I will not be one of those folks in Feb wondering why my hives don't make it if I find that to be the case - that is why I am calling out my struggle with the treatment-free decision beforehand  My strategy is to start as natural as possible (given my already un-natural decisions made before I decided to go that route), and consider adding treatments or making other process changes if I find them them be necessary.

Again, thank you all for welcoming me, I am very happy to have joined your community and look forward to sharing experiences and opinions.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

@Jus144:

At one time I lived in Lenox and worked in Schenectady so I know that trek very well.

If your local beekeepers are saying they need to treat, then chances are you will too. The bees pass varroa around.

The whole foundation vs. small cell thing has not been proven to help with varroa - it's a theory and it gets a lot of play in some circles, but when it's tested in an organized way, it shows no benefit. So you're not stuck with infrastructure that's a bad, or unnnatural thing.

Foundation (whether wax or plastic) is just one way for the bees to anchor their combs. I have some foundationless and while it is a work of art it also creates some otherwise avoidable issues. My own bees are perfectly - and as far as I can tell - equally content and vigorous on plastic frames and plastic foundation and on combs they draw themselves. (Although with my Pierco frames I have had much improved success by adding an extra layer of wax to help them along.)

Your hives sound like them have done well if they have developed into three deeps and a medium, apiece. I'm assuming that all those frames are full of bees and stores and not just empty partly drawn space? A good check on that (without disturbing them) is to weigh the stacks. My well drawn and packed 3 deep and medium stacks weigh around 190-200 lbs each. (This is for 10-frame equipment, if you're using 8-frame stuff, figure about 15% less, or about 160 lbs.) Either way that's more than adequate for good wintering. If, on the other hand, they weigh more in the range of 100 lbs, then you will need to consider some supplementary feeding, or at least plan ahead for that should it become necessary from late January onwards. This usually means installing a feeding rim on top of your stack, which can also double as the upper entrance, which is preferred for wintering colonies.

Your double deeps (whether 10- or 8- frame) should weigh at least 110-130 lbs to be safe for winter.

You might want to consider some other wintering helps: quilt boxes, insulation, upper entrances, etc.

You should already have mouse guards on all your entrances and they should also be reduced.

It's not too late to assess, and even treat, for varroa. You say you haven't seen any but have you done sticky boards or sugar rolls? (It probably is too late for rolls.)

And if your bees survive the winter don't think that your first year experience means that you won't have a problem with varroa in future years. The second summer is usually far worse because varroa winter over and rebound heavuly with the first brood next year.

As to the basis of belief that my bees are descended from ferals: All my original bees arrived as swarms, and no local beekeepers were reporting swarm losses at the time (naively I asked around thinking I needed to return lost property.) I had and still have several long standing feral colonies within a couple of miles from my house. I also had feral bees living in my barn walls for decades. of course all honey bees, if you go back far enough were "managed bees" at one point as there are no native honeybees. The whole survivor-bee thing is a profoundly human construct. But I am sure my bees are "survivor bees", because they survived my completely clueless efforts to "help" them, when they didn't really need any help, thank you very much. Bees are remarkably tough critters.

Enjambres


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## bbruff22 (Dec 24, 2013)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

Welcome from NE Kansas Steve! Good luck to you.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

Welcome to BeeSource and good luck with your bees! Hope they all make it through the winter.


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## Jus144tice (Nov 11, 2015)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

Enjambres,

I've come to really enjoy my daily commute to Albany. If you showed me a collection of pictures of trees in winter, I could pick out the specific trees that line the Berkshire spur. That's what I get after 10 years of the same long commute through the upstate NY countryside, I feel like I have been watching the trees that line my commute grow up over the years.

I feel like two of my hives have done quite well for their first year (photo of one attached from Septempber). The other two only managed to fill two deeps, but they seem quite healthy as well, just smaller. What do you use to weigh your hives? With my hive stands, I feel it would be quite easy to weigh mine, I'd be interested in obtaining the equipment to do that, seems an easy way to see how well prepared they are for winter.

I have read a lot of interesting and intuitive articles regarding natural / small cell foundation that makes me wish I went that route to start with. Regarding the testing of small-cell, one article struck a chord with me (though I can't remember where I found it). It inferred that the scientific studies surrounding natural / small-cell comb all use mite-counts to suggest that they are no more effective at treating varroa than 5.4 mm foundation. However, counting mites does not necessarily reveal the whole picture. For example, perhaps on natural cells, the worker to drone cell size ratio is greater than on cells created on standard 5.4 mm foundation. Varroa prefer drone brood and this article theorized that the varroa had an easier time picking out drone cells on natural comb and would tend to leave the worker cells alone. So, the varroa population may be identical between natural comb and 5.4 mm foundation, but the distribution of varroa between drones and workers may be much different and that may be an extremely important distinction. The article concluded by suggesting that studies instead should use hive survival rates, rather than mite counts to measure varroa management effectiveness and that the author's results using that metric clearly show natural comb to be far superior to 5.4 mm foundation. I have to agree, I would prefer to use survival rates as a metric rather than mite counts when measuring the success of my hives' ability to manage varroa.

That said, my mite counts do seem to be within acceptable bounds so far, mouse guards are now on for winter, top entrance opened, and honey stores seem to be sufficient, so leaving the rest to the bees for my first winter as a beekeeper. Either way, I have very much enjoyed my experiences so far and look forward to the experiences to come!


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

Sorry for the late reply regarding weighing equipment.

I use a Cabela's digital hanging game scale, combined with an over-sized carabineer (about 5" long and wide enough so my whole palm can fit through the fat end), and for weighing hives not set on Metro shelving (like mine are) I use a shelf short bracket that I got at Home Dept. The last part was recommended by someone here when I had trouble weighing friend's hives. 

You slip the hook (or shelf thingy) under the front end of the hive, lift and get the weight a few times, making sure to hold the scale as perfectly plumb as possible, and then repeat this on the back end for a different set. Add the average of the front and back numbers and you've got the hive weight.

If you wanted to venture up here sometime after work to watch it being done, I would be glad to show you my set-up. I am about half an hour north of the 90/787 intersection. Just pm me to make arrangements.

Enj.


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

*Re: New beekeeper already struggling with traditional vs natural*

Welcome. Bees are simple and complicated in the same package. Going treatment free takes patience and losses. I have bred queens that show excellent mite resistance. I have about 30-40 hives with headed by daughters of these queens. The trait is passed down 80+% of the time. I manage between 75 and 100 hives. While its lot large scale by any means...its big enough to get diversity and show excellent traits. I use soft chemicals to treat for mite if need be. I only treat for mites nothing else. Most brood diseases can be solved by requeening....AFB excluded. I had a run of sac brood in my queen rearing colonies this spring. that was though to get though because those queen were the queens I was depending on for production colonies. My own fault. I shared infected brood with healthy colonies. Time and patience and they made it though it when the temps increased and the spring flow started.

I'm in the pioneer valley of Western Massachusetts. Check out my facebook page in my signature.


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