# 🐝BEEJ's Beekeeping Journey🐝



## BEE J (10 mo ago)

*My first swarm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:*

And they came!!! 🥳 🥳 🥳A swarm settled in one of my traps!!!! 

I think they arrived on Tuesday, May 3, 2022, although I'm not sure. They choose the trap made if two medium Lang boxes that was in a pine tree at the edge of the woods. It was about 10ft. off the ground and faced south, towards a field. 

I'm so excited! I also saved $200, as I was considering a package, and might have gotten better bees!

I'll try to write some about how the install went soon!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

on the trail
glad you started a thread.

keep trapping

GG


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

Very cool to read about your journey. Will follow along. I think it is a good year to start out. Great flow this year. I hope you have excellent success.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> Helo my name is Jacob (aka BEEJ), and I'm your friendly, enthusiastic beekeeper from Halifax, Virginia.


OK, BJ, I hope we keep reading your thing five years from today. 
Be cool to follow your Lazutin experience first hand.
G.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

*The Install: Thursday, May 5, 2022  *

Once I figured out that there was a swarm of bees in the trap (I wasn't sure at first, when I saw all the activity) we decided to install them that evening. They had already been in there for about two days so they needed to be moved. One of my family members and me went out after supper and headed for the swarm trap.
You probably understand how nervous/excited it was for a newbie like me to install his first swarm , I was in full gear and my mind was racing like I was cramming for a test.

We didn't get out till dusk, and it took us way longer to get it out of the tree than we thought (thanks in no small part to my "great" tying job😄). Once we got them out of the tree (and sealed the entrance) we carried them the hundred yards or so to the hive. BTW my hive is a horizontal hive with extra deep frames (two deep Lang frames zipped tied together)
I swung open the top of the hive and made an open space between some frames to dump the bees into.

Then it was time! After opening the lid we found that most of the bees were in the upper box and had drawn a substantial amount of comb there. After a quick assessment of the situation we began.
The bees were shook off the frames and into the hive, and then the empty frames and boxes were placed in front of the entrance.
After the majority of the bees were in the hive we closed it up.

Please note that it probably wasn't the ideal plan but for a rookie like me it's probably understandable.

One thing that probably should have been done is that we should have slid over the frames with the division board so that there wasn't a big gap between them. I knew they would try to draw come from the ceiling but planned to come back tomorrow to fix it. 

And so, we left them to settle in for the night. It was probably around 9:45pm. when we actually got them dumped in the hive, so it was latter than I expected. But all in all I thought it went good even though there were some things I might do differently next time. 

-BEEJ


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> on the trail
> glad you started a thread.
> 
> keep trapping
> ...


I will! Thank you! 
P.S Congrads on being the first one to comment! 😁🐝I hope this thread will be helpful to the community!



thill said:


> Very cool to read about your journey. Will follow along. I think it is a good year to start out. Great flow this year. I hope you have excellent success.


Thanks! Feel free to add something from your own experiences to the thread. Glad the flow is good up there, I used to live more up north closer to you.



GregB said:


> OK, BJ, I hope we keep reading your thing five years from today.
> Be cool to follow your Lazutin experience first hand.
> G.


I hope so too! It will be interesting to see how the bees do in the Lazutin, and since I'm going TF we can use my experience as an experiment. It will be interesting to see the results in my area. I will try to get you the stats on the survival rate of the TF colonies.

Thanks all! Have a great day!

-BEEJ🐝


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## BeeRussell (9 mo ago)

BEE J said:


> *Introduction: *
> This thread was started as a place for me to post my experiences, failures, victories, and in short, my journey through the practice of apiculture. It's also a thread where insight and comments on my activities is welcomed! Please try to post only related and helpful experiences or thoughts. I appreciate your participation in this thread. Thank you!
> 
> 
> ...


 Will be watching.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

BeeRussell said:


> Will be watching.


Thank you! Feel free to comment on my "expert" methods. 😄
Glad to have you!


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## TelmahQ (Jun 3, 2021)

@BEE J, have you been taking any pictures?


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Yes I have been, but I need to more. I hope I can get some pics here in the future.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

*First Inspection:*

This post should be pretty short because there really isn't that much to write about. So, yesterday I did my first real inspection and this is what I saw:

The bees had been drawing comb on the foundation🥳🥳🥳. Before I had slid the frames over they had done some drawing from the ceiling, but that's over now! They were stocking pollen in some of the cells but I don't remember much or any nectar. I'm not worried about them starving though, because they have a a lot of nectar around them from all the wild blackberry blooms. 
There were no eggs yet, but the cells probably weren't deep enough anyway so I'm not worried.

Overall I think hive #1 Genesis is off to a good start!

I hope everyone's new install's are buzzing too!

Best Regards, BEEJ🐝🐝🐝


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

*Naming The Hive:*

I decided to name the first hive. I know it might be cheesy, but I thought they deserved a bit more than a number. I don't want it to sound like a prison: hive NO.1, Hive NO.2, hive NO. 3333. 😄

I have chosen the name *Genesis *to be used for the colony, it means "the origin or coming into being of something". It's also the first book of the bible.

But if I did the next book of the bible for the next colony it would be "Exodus".
I bet we would all now what that colony would be like!😄😄😄 I also like the name "ex nihilo" , which means "out of nothing". That would be a perfect name for a swarm that showed up out of the blue.

Have any of Ya'll every named your colonies? What was the name?
I will try to keep you up to date on Genesis's status!

Keep Buzzing, BEEJ🐝🐝🐝


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Jacob:

Finally found your thread- glad to see that you are chronicling your efforts and like Greg mentioned I hope to see you stick with it- it is hard work to maintain updates, but it is cool to go back years later and see the progress.

Best of success to you in your beekeeping journey- it is quite a beguiling hobby.

Russ


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Glad you were able to find this thread! I think somehow, somebody moves it to a different sub forum that was more relevant for it. I didn't know anyone could do that but I got a notification on my alerts.


Litsinger said:


> Jacob:
> 
> Finally found your thread- glad to see that you are chronicling your efforts


Thank you! I hope it helps future members who are new to beekeeping, like me, as well as hopefully provide some info that masters could use, like you.



Litsinger said:


> and like Greg mentioned I hope to see you stick with it- it is hard work to maintain updates,


Yes, I found that out after only a short while on Beesource.


Litsinger said:


> but it is cool to go back years later and see the progress.
> 
> Best of success to you in your beekeeping journey- it is quite a beguiling hobby.
> 
> Russ


Absolutely! Thank you for your comment. It's good to get affirmation from the pros of the practice.

Keep Buzzing, BEEJ🐝🐝🐝


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> I decided to name the first hive.


If you are into this naming game - name the queen. 
That is all that really matters (not the hive itself - a pile of wood).


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## PFiji (Dec 25, 2016)

Awesome!!!

So glad you managed to catch a swarm! I'm still working on finding time to hang my traps.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

BEE J said:


> ... some info that masters could use, like you.


Thank you for your confidence, Jacob but I am certainly no master- and that is no false modesty.

At best I am a swarm beekeeper, and at worst I am a PPBK- also known affectionately around here is a BeeHAVER in homage to the late, great George Imirie whose 'Pink Pages' are legendary and well-worth reading IMHO:



http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/Alphabetical_index.html


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

after a week and a half of establishing new comb and provisions (especially during the main flow) the broodnest should contain visible wet brood some of which may be nearing getting capped soon, (assuming your swarm ended up with a laying queen). i would consider another inspection, (a quick in and out), over the next few days specifically to confirm a laying queen with a solid brood pattern. be especially gentle when removing and replacing a frame suspected of having the queen on it.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

PFiji said:


> Awesome!!!
> 
> So glad you managed to catch a swarm! I'm still working on finding time to hang my traps.


Thank you! I think your not two late to hang the traps, as your way farther north. But then again I know the swarm season can sneak up on you. I wish you the biggest and best swarms!


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> Thank you for your confidence, Jacob but I am certainly no master- and that is no false modesty.
> 
> At best I am a swarm beekeeper, and at worst I am a PPBK- also known affectionately around here is a BeeHAVER in homage to the late, great George Imirie whose 'Pink Pages' are legendary and well-worth reading IMHO:
> 
> ...


There's a massive amount of information in those pages! Thank you for sharing it with me and the community!


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> If you are into this naming game - name the queen.
> That is all that really matters (not the hive itself - a pile of wood).


Then if I ever move the colony to a new hive (I probably won't, though) I can still keep track of the queen and her offspring. I don't have much experience locating queens but I will probably tell if she's ever get's replaced by finding some queen cells.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

squarepeg said:


> after a week and a half of establishing new comb and provisions (especially during the main flow) the broodnest should contain visible wet brood some of which may be nearing getting capped soon, (assuming your swarm ended up with a laying queen). i would consider another inspection, (a quick in and out), over the next few days specifically to confirm a laying queen with a solid brood pattern. be especially gentle when removing and replacing a frame suspected of having the queen on it.


Thank you for all the information. Today marks one week of the swarm in the hive, and I plan on doing an inspection. I think the swarm was a primary one, but I'm not sure. If it is it may already have a bred queen.
I will try and be very gentle!


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

*Helpful Hack: *

I just wanted to share this helpful hack I discovered with everyone...

So, I had caught a swarm in a pine tree about 10ft. off the ground (when we took the trap down it required a ladder). But after we installed the swarm in the hive some of the bees went back to the old spot. I would then have to get a ladder and put the swarm trap back in the tree every day, and at night move them to the hive location. After several days of moving this box up and down the tree I found this little trick to be easier. 

Instead of putting the whole swarm trap back in the tree, just put up a frame from the trap. The bees will cluster on this frame at night and you can then simply bring the frame down and put in a box, and then move it to the apiary. It's less work than moving a whole box up and down a ladder, trust me. And mine was close enough to the ground that I could just stretch up to reach the frame (no need for a ladder).

Keep Buzzing, BEEJ🐝🐝🐝


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Sorry but I will not be doing an inspection today after all. The weather turned rainy and I don't want to bug the bees today. I don't know if there would be any sign of brood anyway as today marks just one week in the hive.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

squarepeg said:


> i would consider another inspection, (a quick in and out), over the next few days specifically to confirm a laying queen with a solid brood pattern.


@squarepeg:

Just wanted to see that I was glad to see your post- I do hope it is a sign of more shared wisdom to come.

I do hope all is well with you, your family and your bees- maybe you could update your thread sometime. 😇


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

*13 Day Inspection:*

I inspected Genesis (colony #1) this afternoon and was so happy with what I saw. I found brood, and a good amount!!!!!!!!🥳🥳🥳 Some where capped and others not, yet. There's a queen and she's fertile!!!! Is there any way I can tell if she's a new one or the original one (the old queen that left)? 

I also found a little capped honey, ands lots of pollen and nectar! They did draw out several of my extra deep frames (maybe 5 mostly complete and a few more partially drawn.) Overall I'm am very, very, very, pleased with the status of this colony!

Keep Buzzing, BEEJ🐝🐝🐝


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> They did draw out several of my extra deep frames (maybe 5 mostly complete and a few more partially drawn.)


I would keep them reduced so to force them to draw down all way.
For example, keep 5-6 frames until they draw them ~90%. Then add a new frame.
This is vs. keeping them on 7-8 frames - they will be drawing the frame tops and ignoring the bottom parts. Sort of like the pictured.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> I would keep them reduced so to force them to draw down all way.
> For example, keep 5-6 frames until they draw them ~90%. Then add a new frame.
> This is vs. keeping them on 7-8 frames - they will be drawing the frame tops and ignoring the bottom parts. Sort of like the pictured.
> 
> View attachment 69354


I knew I should have done that.  It was just one of those things a newbie like me does in a panic.😄The good news is that they did draw the first 4 frames (closest to the edge, the nest is somewhere in there) out fairly well (maybe 80-85%) It's the other frames (I thinks there's 7-10 extra-deeps total) that may not be fully drawn out.

Thanks Greg!

BEEJ 🐝 🐝 🐝


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> they did draw the first 4 frames (closest to the edge, the nest is somewhere in there) out fairly well (maybe 80-85%)


So 5 frames should be plenty for now. The rest of the frames can be behind the separation board or even completely removed until later.
Remember that the population will drop some since your swarm did not bring any brood along.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> So 5 frames should be plenty for now. The rest of the frames can be behind the separation board or even completely removed until later.
> Remember that the population will drop some since your swarm did not bring any brood along.


So your suggesting that I remove the frames they've started working on? Will it matter since their population will be climbing here soon? I will try to give them fewer frames next time I catch a swarm, but I don't know if I want to mess with them now that they've already been working on them.

Thanks, BEEJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> So your suggesting that I remove the frames they've started working on? Will it matter since their population will be climbing here soon? I will try to give them fewer frames next time I catch a swarm, but I don't know if I want to mess with them now that they've already been working on them.
> 
> Thanks, BEEJ


Just place the frame *outside *of the follower board - as long as you don't move the brood outside (less desirable).
This will prompt them to finish building the frames *inside *the nest, not be jumping over and over and over.
Otherwise, you are going to have all bunch of half-finished frames - not great when you enter the winter season (of course in your climate this is less important).

Don't be shy about "messing" things up.
Otherwise they will mess with you forever (like doing a cross-comb into your face - because you are afraid to touch it because they "already been working" on it).


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Don't be shy about "messing" things up.
> Otherwise they will mess with you forever (like doing a cross-comb into your face - because you are afraid to touch it because they "already been working" on it).


That's true. I guess it a beginner thing . I appreciate the excellent advice!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

swap out the first "partial"
and add a new one next time in.
then the next time repeat, swap out a partial and add a new.

make sure as Greg suggested there are no eggs or brood in the one swapped out.
in several weeks you will have 3 or 4 partials, to use on the next swarm, or a split.

early worthy goals
make and catch bees
get drawn comb in case of a swarm catch or split.

GG


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## Tumbleweed (Mar 17, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> swap out the first "partial"
> and add a new one next time in.
> then the next time repeat, swap out a partial and add a new.
> 
> ...


Ooh I like that idea! That’s going in my bag of tools.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> swap out the first "partial"
> and add a new one next time in.
> then the next time repeat, swap out a partial and add a new.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I understand. So when you install another swarm you could have comb for the queen to get right to work on? Shouldn't I let this colony get established this year?

Thanks, BEEJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> I'm not sure I understand. So when you install another swarm you could have comb for the queen to get right to work on? Shouldn't I let this colony get established this year?
> 
> Thanks, BEEJ


This - "could have comb for the queen to get right to work on"
Does not contradict this - "let this colony get established this year"

Your freshly installed current swarm should be able to quickly pre-build few partial frames (you have 2-3 weeks before they slow down).
These are valuable resources for your other future colonies (especially, given you are starting from zero).


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> This - "could have comb for the queen to get right to work on"
> Does not contradict this - "let this colony get established this year"
> 
> Your freshly installed current swarm should be able to quickly pre-build few partial frames (you have 2-3 weeks before they slow down).
> These are valuable resources for your other future colonies (especially, given you are starting from zero).


Thanks for clarifying me.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BeeJ,
Here is a good demo of how to NOT be managing a single-tier hive.
A good chance to observe a real-life case.

Observe how his colony is stretched across the entire hive on half-drawn/third-drawn frames.
Poor practice and poor nest.

Instead, he should have compressed them to 5 frames using an end board.
Let them (near) finish the frames; then gradually grow them, meanwhile the bees would perform better in the better conditioned, confined nest
A good demo to see.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Greg what your suggesting is more in line with Fedor Lazutin's method, and I am in strong support of it. In the future I will expand more slowly. I new I shouldn't have given them so many frames. 

I don't know if I want to take away the partially drawn frames from them now, though. They've already expended the energy so I might as well let them continue with their "plans".

Thanks so much for sharing related resources with me! I am really interested in stuff like this!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> I don't know if I want to take away the partially drawn frames from them now, though. They've already expended the energy so I might as well let them continue with their "plans".


We already suggested to move some of the partials outside of the follower board.
But ultimately these are your bees and you are the boss.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

There activity at my swarm trap again!!! 

If I catch another swarm should I unite it with my other colony or install it in the other half of Lazutin hive, separately???


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

BEE J said:


> I'm not sure I understand. So when you install another swarm you could have comb for the queen to get right to work on? Shouldn't I let this colony get established this year?
> 
> Thanks, BEEJ


soon BEEJ you will focus on "Apiary" and less on "1 hive"
a couple comb for a swarm or split, is needed for most keepers.
later swarms if you catch one, can benefit from a "head start"

so yes a couple partial combs are great resources, even only built 6-9 inches.
in 5 years you will have 40 combs, so they happen 1 at a time at first , then when you have 3 hives 3 at a time.
if they keep building keep giving empties. In fall they shut of comb building and focus on filling what they have.

since you caught it early they have time to establish AND give you a comb or 2.

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

BEE J said:


> There activity at my swarm trap again!!!
> 
> If I catch another swarm should I unite it with my other colony or install it in the other half of Lazutin hive, separately???


separate


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> There activity at my swarm trap again!!!
> 
> If I catch another swarm should I unite it with my other colony or install it in the other half of Lazutin hive, separately???


By default - separate.
BUT this default assumes a large enough, viable swarm.
Whereas, the swarms come in all shapes and sizes (down to a grapefruit size if even that).
Then it will be a decision time based on your resources, desires and experience.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> By default - separate.
> BUT this default assumes a large enough, viable swarm.
> Whereas, the swarms come in all shapes and sizes (down to a grapefruit size if even that).
> Then it will be a decision time based on your resources, desires and experience.


Please weigh in on my thoughts:

*Installing "Separate": (when I say "separate" I mean in the other half of my Lazutin hive)

Pro's: *
You possibly get a new colony

*Cons:*
Could die out (because of no/or unfertile queen, bad genetics, etc.) .................
whereas they would have been of use to the already existing colony with a laying queen ( Hive Genesis #1), and would have been saved themselves.

The bees may get confused which part of the hive is theirs, and the queen's scent may mix between the divider board I have.

*(Uniting) 

Pro's *
If the swarm didn't have a good or fertile queen, that will be fixed 
They should be stronger, together, going into winter
I don't have to worry about making sure that the divider board is tight enough to keep them well separated

*Cons: *I miss out on a new colony 

I think I left some other important details out to, so please let me know what you think.
Please keep in mind that when I say "separate" I mean in the empty half of my horizontal hive, and divided down the middle or so. 

I would appreciate the insights. Thank you!


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> separate


Do you have any advice on installing them in the other half of my Lazutin hive?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> Please weigh in on my thoughts:
> 
> *Installing "Separate": (when I say "separate" I mean in the other half of my Lazutin hive)
> 
> ...


OK.
Before making any decisions - you must asses your situation and your priorities.
Only them decide.

1)Separate - my preference for your (even with a small swarm).
This is because you just started with zero and need to expand - it is a no-brainer.
You NEED more stand-alone units for the entire apiary to go forward (with *three *colonies being the absolute minimum - IMO).
Even a small swarm can be grown into fully viable colony starting today (*June 1st*) - hands down easy choice and a very easy project to accomplish.

Cons?
A swarm to die out in very early June?
The least likely outcome.
You need to try hard to kill it about now. 
While it is stupid simple to run it as a stand-alone unit EVEN if the swarm is queen-less - because you *already *have a viable colony to be able to support and recover any failing colony. It can be used as a queen source if needed. Meanwhile, a good batch of free bees (EVEN if queen-less) can be used to establish a new colony.

2)Unite - poor choice for your circumstances and this time of the year.
A chance of trapping a queen-less swarm into a trap is very small - let me just state this and move on (if want I can discuss the why).
Drop this "better for wintering" logic - it is irrelevant - today is June 1st. 
This logic only becomes relevant when you catch a swarm on August 31st (or especially on September 30th) - even then, it makes very good sense to keep the swarm stand-alone (especially at your southern location).

Again - you must maximize your efforts on growing your stock on hand.
This NOT only means more units.
This ALSO means you want as much variety of the queens on hands as possible - only this way you are able to start selecting your preferred bees (after about one year you should begin seeing the differences). By uniting - you gain nothing (literally nothing at this stage) - and yet you undercut the very important priority at this stage for you - building a robust and diverse apiary. The more queens the better - for you.

PS: some people insist on running just one hive - this is their choice and, hopefully, for well justified reasons (also happens - local regulations is just one example).
but most often than not, these one-hivers don't really understand the most basic ideas regarding the beekeeping (redundancy & recovery is one such basic idea).

PS: if worried about the leaky divider board - just duct-tape it along the edges and be done; it is really that simple.  use stronger duct-tape to sure (e.g. TRex);
I use aluminum tape for such applications - just because I got tons of it for free.
The divider board is not an deciding factor for anything.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Thank you, Greg!!! That was just what I needed to hear. I will be installing them separately (assuming I even got them, I have to check 😄).
Your right this is a no-brainer... I need more units and queens! I was probably worried about the logistics of getting them in and preventing any conflicts with their "neighbors". 

I will probably need to make another divider board. Remember you were telling me to give them less frames to start with, and I don't know if they'll each fill up half a hive. (It would be great if they did!)



GregB said:


> A chance of trapping a queen-less swarm into a trap is very small - let me just state this and move on (if want I can discuss the why).


I would love to know, but don't bother if you don't feel like going through it with me.


GregB said:


> Drop this "better for wintering" logic - it is irrelevant - today is June 1st.


I must be because I've read Fedor Lazutin's book, and he's in Russia!!!😄😄😄


GregB said:


> PS: some people insist on running just one hive - this is their choice and, hopefully, for well justified reasons (also happens - local regulations is just one example).
> but most often than not, these one-hivers don't really understand the most basic ideas regarding the beekeeping (redundancy & recovery is one such basic idea).


Yes, by no means do I want to stay at one hive. And there's none of those regulations out here, I'm staring at a big AG field out of my window.


GregB said:


> PS: if worried about the leaky divider board - just duct-tape it along the edges and be done; it is really that simple.  use stronger duct-tape to sure (e.g. TRex);
> I use aluminum tape for such applications - just because I got tons of it for free.
> The divider board is not an deciding factor for anything.


thanks for the hack.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

BEE J said:


> Could die out (because of no/or unfertile queen, bad genetics, etc.) .................
> whereas they would have been of use to the already existing colony with a laying queen ( Hive Genesis #1), and would have been saved themselves.


if "Genesis "needs" a swarm to survive then it is not worth saving.


BEE J said:


> If the swarm didn't have a good or fertile queen, that will be fixed


presumption of an infertile queen is a dart at the wall, not really sound planning.
so IF you place it separate, and then evaluate the queen then you know. 
if queen less then the next step is a unite. maybe it has a better queen than the one you have.
can always unite later. no rule to decide day 1

making intricate plans is a somewhat waste of time, if the swarm is big you will toss the plan to combine, if it is queenless you toss the plan to keep it separate.

toss all the ifs in the basket and do what is needed, once you see what you have and what you need.
plenty early to make a swarm winter, by mid August a different decision.

look , then decide, re look re decide, it is a data driven iterative process.

most of your big decision are reactive.

GG


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

If I got them, I am thinking about using the "dump and shake" to get them in the other side of the hive. Fedor just dumped the swarms he caught from his hives (I don't think the ones in his special traps, because he just moved the frames into the hive. Placing them in the same order.) on a piece of plywood in the evening. They just walked right up the "ramp" and through the entrance.

🐝 🐝 🐝 
Any thoughts on a better way to install a swarm in a horizontal hive? 

Thanks, BEEJ


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> if "Genesis "needs" a swarm to survive then it is not worth saving.


No, I mean the new swarm would have been saved. Genesis was doing great, last I checked, and the queen is laying lots of eggs.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> if "Genesis "needs" a swarm to survive then it is not worth saving.
> 
> presumption of an infertile queen is a dart at the wall, not really sound planning.
> so IF you place it separate, and then evaluate the queen then you know.
> ...


Your right Gray Goose. We do need to change things based on the circumstances. I will install them in the other half of the hive, Lord-willing, and unite latter if needed.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

BEE J said:


> If I got them, I am thinking about using the "dump and shake" to get them in the other side of the hive. Fedor just dumped the swarms he caught from his hives (I don't think the ones in his special traps, because he just moved the frames into the hive. Placing them in the same order.) on a piece of plywood in the evening. They just walked right up the "ramp" and through the entrance.
> 
> 🐝 🐝 🐝
> Any thoughts on a better way to install a swarm in a horizontal hive?
> ...


use a horizontal frame size trap move them in 30 days when they are anchored to the brood.


just need some partial combs for the traps.....

GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

@BEE J for some reason I didn't get a notification that you had posted recently- regardless it looks like you've gotten plenty of food for thought.

More generally, I would suggest two big picture thoughts:

1. More colonies = more options- Lot's of things happen throughout the bee year- some weather-driven, some bad luck and some just plain beekeeper error (ask me how I know about this one). The more colonies you have on-hand (to a point) the more opportunities you have to work around issues that might arise and keep from having to start over. So, as long as you are in expansion mode, I would suggest that in general, and with all caveats duly noted your default position might want to be adding to your colony count.

2. Reproductive swarms are as good as it gets- While I might get some push-back on this, my experience has been that appropriately timed reproductive swarms are a gift from on high and come pre-primed for success with but possibly a little bit of help from you. So unless I've got absolutely no place for it or it is simply too late in the season to make it worth the effort to salvage it, I see every swarm (softball sized and up) as an opportunity to increase my colony count and as added genetic diversity.

Keep asking questions and don't be afraid to try stuff. You'll make mistakes (we all do), but you'll learn from them and find out what works and what doesn't in your situation.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> use a horizontal frame size trap move them in 30 days when they are anchored to the brood.
> 
> 
> just need some partial combs for the traps.....
> ...


I have been thinking about building a horizontal trap. 
The only problem with leaving them in a spot to long is that my trap is about a hundred yards or so from my apiary.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> @BEE J for some reason I didn't get a notification that you had posted recently- regardless it looks like you've gotten plenty of food for thought.


That's odd.


I did install the swarm (there was one in there🥳), separately in the other side of my hive. I will try and write about this adventure shortly.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

*My #2 swarm install:*

So I found out on Wednesday that the swarm trap that had caught my previous swarm had another one in it. I believe the swarm arrived the day before, as there was only two tiny pieces of comb drawn. I am glad I figured they were in there sooner than last time.

I spent the afternoon in my hive making a "lid" for colony Genesis #1 so when I installed the new swarm in the other half they wouldn't be bothered, and also when I go to inspect it again they don't start flying into each others part of the hive.

I also made another division board because the swarm wouldn't need the whole other half of the hive. I also tried to seal any cracks between the two colonies with duct tape (thanks Greg  ) and weather strips.

By evening I was ready, and I shook the bees into their new home. 🥳 🥳 🥳


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

*First Inspection of new swarm:*

So I had some concern that the the swarm had somehow united itself with the colony Genesis #1 in the other half of the hive. I thought this because of the large amount of bees I saw going into the other side of the hive. While some may have went and joined the other colony (I don't know), upon inspection I found that the swarm I has installed (at least most of them) where still in their part of the hive. They were drawing comb too!

I want to thank Greg and Gray Goose for telling me to save a partially draw comb from Genesis 1# for a future swarm.
I did remove one for the new swarm when I found out I had one. I think it's given them a great boost! It had some nectar in it too so had some feed for a least a day or two.

Thanks Greg and Gray Goose!!!   

This new swarm wasn't coming out of the entrance much the first day. I wonder why they were staying in there.
They may have been eating up the nectar?
I think they were having trouble finding the entrance at first, and that may have to do with how my frames "block" direct access into the hive. They have to crawl under them or up to the crack in the middle (formed from joining two Lang deeps at the bottoms). 
They found a hole in the weather strip in the hive roof and were using that as well, but I blocked it, so they are all using the entrance now.

I am so excited/blessed to have *2 *colonies in my first year!!! And I got them basically for free!!!
Now I am thinking about the new hives and traps I plan to make for next year.😀😀

Keep Buzzing, BEEJ🐝🐝🐝


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

one step at a time.
soon you will have 40 hives and be cursing us


good luck, IMO bees are a good thing to invest time into.
Seems they always have a trick or 2 to share.

you can always shake a partial frame from one give to the other, if you want to even them up a bit.

start the winter plan , how much stores do they need, move that way the summer is always so short it seems.

GG
p.s.
I recommend a winter project of making a couple traps 4 or 5 frame, with your exact hive frame.
followed by a spring project where you place a split in them to season them, for swarm capture.. then you do not have the shake and worry part of the swarm process.
I just moved a swarm , been there for 2 weeks, I did not have the time to deal with it, but it did not matter as My frames are all somewhat the same. trap is a small hive box, trap is a split box. trap is a temp hive.
a couple years and you will have combs and hive size traps, less worry.
beekeeping is meant to help you relax, not wind you up.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> I recommend a winter project of making a couple traps 4 or 5 frame, with your exact hive frame.
> followed by a spring project where you place a split in them to season them, for swarm capture.. then you do not have the shake and worry part of the swarm process.


Yes I have been thinking about doing that. That way I could set them up at a location a few miles from here and not have to worry about installing them right away.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

*12 Day inspection of New Swarm (#2 is unnamed for now):*

I inspected the new swarm (the one that came after Genesis#1) this afternoon, after the sun had been out for a few hours (we had a little rain today).I am happy and disappointed in what I found.


I was am excited because I found brood!....
And even better, 🥳🥳🥳 * I spotted my first queen*!!!!! (I was really excited about that!)

The disappointing things are that:
They have not drawn much comb, low amount of brood, low amount of pollen and nectar, and *I saw what I believed to be a small hive beetle.*

They are definitely way weaker than their neighbors were at their age.
I don't think they're going to starve now as it seems their is still a decent flow happening. Come fall will be a different story though.

I am a little concerned about the small hive beetle I saw, but I guess you can't expect to see no predators ever in your practice of apiculture.


I want to thank *GregB *and *Gray Goose *again for your idea to save a frame of partially drawn comb in case I got another swarm! I think they really needed the extra help. It was on that frame that I
found the queen among the brood.

Any thoughts or advice are welcome!!!

P.S Last Saturday, I met my first beekeeper (not counting my friends and family who have done it in the past, and since I've become one). She's a mentor and owns an apiary 2-3 hours away from me. I guess that doesn't count as "local" to my area, but hey, it's still great to connect with someone else who speaks your "language" and just talk bees.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

BEE J said:


> I saw what I believed to be a small hive beetle.


@BEE J:

Based on your locale, small hive beetles are likely a fact of life.



Litsinger said:


> ... the three (and a half) most effective control methods for me have been the following...


There's still a lot of season left, but if your area is anything like mine, the flow has definitely slowed down.

If you're concerned they are slow to build up, you could put a little 1 to 1 syrup on them, they will definitely draw out more comb if they've got the resources to do it.

Keep plugging-away- you're off to a good start.

Russ


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

BeeJ
swarms come in all sizes.
ditto what Russ has offered.

I would feed both swarms, let each add stores and draw comb.
you may be able to take a partial away from the bigger one and give it to the smaller one, every 4 weeks.
so hence why to feed them both. since you CAN move frames,, together they need to get enough capped for winter.
Example if the little one makes 3 frames of stores and the big one 6, you can move one frame for a 4 and 5 from the 3 and 6. its June so you have some time.

if possible I would rig up some type of in hive feeder, and keep some feed on the new one for a few weeks like 5 and offer some to the bigger one on occasion.

don't worry yourself too much, I tried that it did not help much...

GG


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> Based on your locale, small hive beetles are likely a fact of life.


Okay, good to hear. I haven't studied up on them much, although I probably should. I was just a little concerned about them destroying the new swarm which as I said is weak. I only saw one so I don't think there's an infestation.


Litsinger said:


> There's still a lot of season left, but if your area is anything like mine, the flow has definitely slowed down.


I'm still trying to figure the flow in my area out. There's a ton of chickory blooms, but I don't see the bees working them much. I did see some working the broadleaf plantain, though. There appears to be a lot of wild flowers too, but like I said I'm still not sure.


Litsinger said:


> If you're concerned they are slow to build up, you could put a little 1 to 1 syrup on them, they will definitely draw out more comb if they've got the resources to do it.
> 
> Keep plugging-away- you're off to a good start.
> 
> Russ


I'm going to monitor how they preform once their population starts climbing; when the first batch's of brood hatch.

Thanks, Russ for all the encouragement and advice!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> I'm still trying to figure the flow in my area out.


Yes, this is an important piece of knowledge that only you will know - very very local thing.
If people don't understand their local flows, they are in much trouble.
In general, you should be close to your regional trends - so at least know what they are.

This is how you'd know if and when to feed.
For example, a blind "never feed" story will doom a late swarm IF there is nothing but dearth ahead of them (however strong and healthy the swarm maybe).
So learn and keep that local flow context in your mind always.

Up here it is easy - once the May cold (or is it June cold??? ) finally goes away, we are in constant flow through September.
But the flow is weathe*r dependent* (!!!!) - a significant drought will turn off most any flow, and the droughts do happen.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> BeeJ
> swarms come in all sizes.
> ditto what Russ has offered.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for all the ideas GG! I think that colony #1 is fine on stores but I need to do an inspection to verify that. I am little concerned about this new swarm though. I am thinking about your suggestion to give them a partial frame. 
For now I think I will just give them a bit more time to see if they make a comeback with the first batches if brood that will soon hatch.

BEEJ


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Yes, this is an important piece of knowledge that only you will know - very very local thing.
> If people don't understand their local flows, they are in much trouble.
> In general, you should be close to your regional trends - so at least know what they are.


Where can one find information on their flows? Do I have to figure my local flow out myself by observing and recording, or is there a good graph, etc. online showing that info? Do I need to join a local association?
I would really, really, really appreciate some pointers.

Thank You, BEEJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> Where can one find information on their flows? Do I have to figure my local flow out myself by observing and recording, or is there a good graph, etc. online showing that info? Do I need to join a local association?
> I would really, really, really appreciate some pointers.
> 
> Thank You, BEEJ


Start here?
Post Your Bloom Dates | Beesource Beekeeping Forums

But a general algorithm should be:

learn your main local nectar sources
learn when they bloom and for how long they bloom
overlay onto this info your seasonal droughts (if they are predictable).
as well - drive around within 1-2 miles radius off your bees and scout what the foraging picture looks like 
All it is to it.
You should be able to google that up.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> don't worry yourself too much, I tried that it did not help much...


😄  Yes! Sometimes I just need to remind myself that I should just relax and enjoy this fun practice of apiculture!


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Start here?
> Post Your Bloom Dates | Beesource Beekeeping Forums
> 
> But a general algorithm should be:
> ...


Thank you so much. I will work on it!


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## TelmahQ (Jun 3, 2021)

Hi Bee J, you can also go to pollen.com and check out your local forecast/past pollen levels. Pollen flow is not the same thing as nectar flow for the bees, but it's a neat tool to help understand what the trees and plants around you are doing, especially at the changes in season.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

TelmahQ said:


> Hi Bee J, you can also go to pollen.com and check out your local forecast/past pollen levels. Pollen flow is not the same thing as nectar flow for the bees, but it's a neat tool to help understand what the trees and plants around you are doing, especially at the changes in season.


Thanks TelmahQ! I'm checking it out!


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

It has been *hot *here today, with temperatures 90's and "feels like" at least 100! Colony Genesis (the larger, first one) was doing a lot of fanning, with bees on the front on the hive forming a triangle or arc away from the entrance and to the edge.
They weren't bearding though so I am very pleased with the insulated Lazutin hive.
It looked like they were "passing" the heat along and out to the east side of the hive. If I had a vent in the hive I would probably open it for the next week, at least, but the model of horizontal hive I built doesn't. I think the thick walls will help to keep more hot, humid, air from rushing back in that quickly, so hopefully they will be able to manage through this hot period.

And the hive is in about full shade, so I think they'll be just fine. 
What's the weather like where you live? Tell me below!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Today's high in Paducah, KY was 99 degrees F with heat index of 110. A lot of front porch sitting tonight.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

We were blessed this morning with rain to cool things down. It was a welcoming sight after yesterday's heat.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> Based on your locale, small hive beetles are likely a fact of life.


@BEE J:

Great article in the July ABJ by Dr. Wyatt Mangum- thought of you:


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

I was watching this Youtube video (



) with Dr.Leo in it, and heard this statement, which I found interesting. Start watching around 5:10.
He said something to the effect of:* "The kind of box you put the bees in is not as important as the bees themselves."*
I need to keep that in mind as I make plans for building new hives and traps, for next year.

I just found that interesting and wanted to share it with everyone.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> @BEE J:
> 
> Great article in the July ABJ by Dr. Wyatt Mangum- thought of you:


Thank you Russ, for this interesting, article! I do need to do a little study on these beetles (especially in my climate).
I love the work Dr. Wyatt has done and his book is very informative, never seen this article before though. Thanks again!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

BEE J said:


> I was watching this Youtube video (
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well since they were not in any kind of box for several million years, that statement stands to reason.
we have "put them in a box" in the last 400 years, prior they picked their own homes.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> I was watching this Youtube video .............with Dr.Leo in it, and heard this statement, which I found interesting. Start watching around 5:10.
> He said something to the effect of:* "The kind of box you put the bees in is not as important as the bees themselves."*
> I need to keep that in mind as I make plans for building new hives and traps, for next year.
> 
> I just found that interesting and wanted to share it with everyone.


Watch that Dr. Leo... 
He will tell you many things.

Overall, universal physics still matter, the physics mattered before the bees ever came along, and the physics will matter after all the bees and people are gone.
With that - the hives do matter because they do create the physical context within which the bees exist.

But in most hive situations *healthy *bees will survive, and in many hive situations they will even thrive.
It is true - healthy (and ideally - locally adapted) bees come before the hive.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

I don't share the same world view as you but definitely agree on this...


GregB said:


> But in most hive situations *healthy *bees will survive, and in many hive situations they will even thrive.
> It is true - healthy (and ideally - locally adapted) bees come before the hive.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> ...prior they picked their own homes.


They still do!  Which is great because we can see what they want to live in given the choice.

Bees have been "contained" by man for at least a thousand years(probably a lot more). But yes, the boxes with portable frames as we see them today are a more recent invention.

P.S. I don't believe bees and mankind have been around for more than 6000 years, but that's a topic for the tailgater forum. 
*Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham - HD (Official) - YouTube*


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

So, I'm thinking of plans for next year. What do I need to build? Where do I want to put it? How many do I want to make?
You know the important thoughts that make your head spin.😄


I know I need to build another hive, but the question is what type? I want to dramatically reduce the cost of whatever new thing I need to build (My first hive is the like the Taj Mahal!) I also want to build a swarm trap which will accept extra-deep frames, (assuming I stick with those frames) like *Gray Goose *suggested.


These questions are more for me than Ya'll, but I would love to hear of what you chose to do in preparation for your second year!


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

BEE J said:


> So, I'm thinking of plans for next year. What do I need to build?
> I know I need to build another hive, but the question is what type? I want to dramatically reduce the cost of whatever new thing I need to build


The main cost is always frames, if you go with purchased Langstroth equipment. If you make all your own gear, that isn't such an issue. 100 Lang deep frames, unassembled, cost me $100 last year. In 6 years doing bees I have spent about $600. $50 was bees. $200 (a guess) was wood and miscellaneous bits like paint and screws. All the rest was frames. A pack of 5 Lang frames assembled, with plastic foundation, is over $30 at the local farm store. 6 years ago that same pack was $14.

A strong suggestion is to standardize equipment so any frame can go in any box. I use almost all Lang deeps, except for a handful of Lang mediums for supers. A few years ago I made a bunch of 5-frame deeps, and these have been tremendously useful, as traps, quiet box for inspections, mini hives for making queens and making splits.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

AR1 said:


> The main cost is always frames, if you go with purchased Langstroth equipment. If you make all your own gear, that isn't such an issue. 100 Lang deep frames, unassembled, cost me $100 last year. In 6 years doing bees I have spent about $600. $50 was bees. $200 (a guess) was wood and miscellaneous bits like paint and screws. All the rest was frames. A pack of 5 Lang frames assembled, with plastic foundation, is over $30 at the local farm store. 6 years ago that same pack was $14.
> 
> A strong suggestion is to standardize equipment so any frame can go in any box. I use almost all Lang deeps, except for a handful of Lang mediums for supers. A few years ago I made a bunch of 5-frame deeps, and these have been tremendously useful, as traps, quiet box for inspections, mini hives for making queens and making splits.


Thank you! I overlooked the fact of how much frames cost.   I am considering making my own for next year.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

BEE J said:


> Thank you! I overlooked the fact of how much frames cost.   I am considering making my own for next year.


Look at GregB's pics for ideas on frames. His standup frames are a good idea. I am considering making some that will fit my lang nucs.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

*Update:*
Looks like were in a dearth now, as there's not much activity at the hive.

Swarm number #2 is still alive, and I am wondering if I should unite it with the other colony. I need to do an inspection to check (the problem is there's a bunch of ticks near my hive 😄).

P.S. I like the new tag, moderators! I don't know when you added it, but it should prove to be "helpful" to the forum.

BEEJ


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

BEE J said:


> Swarm number #2 is still alive, and I am wondering if I should unite it with the other colony.


Hey, @BEE J. Is swarm #2 struggling? What leads you down the path of wondering if you need to combine?


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> Hey, @BEE J. Is swarm #2 struggling? What leads you down the path of wondering if you need to combine?


Yes, last time checked (2 weeks or so?) they were struggling. They hadn't drawn out much comb at all. Also in this dearth they seem to be staying cooped up in the hive while swarm #1 is still sending out a few bees a minute.

But I do need to inspect them soon to see if this situation has improved some.

BEEJ


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

BEE J said:


> Yes, last time checked (2 weeks or so?) they were struggling.


It could be an indication of a colony problem or a lack of resources. I would start by determining whether they are queenright.

If so, they may just need food- when they get down to the redline, they will severely limit foraging.


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

Sounds like you need to relocate that hive. The whole point of putting them in a box with removable frames for comb is so you can inspect them. If the place you’ve chosen to place the box isn’t suitable to allowing you to accomplish the main reason for placing the bees in the box in the first place, then it’s a poor location.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> I would start by determining whether they are queenright.


Yes, I think that's a good idea. I know that they were installed with a laying queen, but I haven't verified that they still do recently.


Litsinger said:


> If so, they may just need food...


I know this sounds crazy, but I really didn't want to feed my bees with sugar.
I know it would help them out, but I am choosing not to for my own reasons.
I am not saying I want them to forage all of there own food or die, though. In the future, when I get more experience, I might find a way to incorporate feeding into my system.

I thought if I united them with the other colony (which was doing far better), they would together have a better chance of coming out of this dearth and into winter with a sufficient amount of resources.

I would appreciate any comments or suggestions.
Thanks!  

BEEJ


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

NUBE said:


> Sounds like you need to relocate that hive. The whole point of putting them in a box with removable frames for comb is so you can inspect them. If the place you’ve chosen to place the box isn’t suitable to allowing you to accomplish the main reason for placing the bees in the box in the first place, then it’s a poor location.


Thanks for the suggestion, NUBE.
Unfortunately, Lazutin hives are so heavy that it makes them impractical to move around. I might be able to in the spring when the hive is lighter, but even then it would be a big job.

I was able to inspect the hive fairly often, but now there are tons of seed ticks around there.
In hindsight, though, I think your right. I probably should not have put the hive in the woods.

BEEJ


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

BEE J said:


> I know this sounds crazy, but I really didn't want to feed my bees with sugar.
> I know it would help them out, but I am choosing not to for my own reasons.
> I am not saying I want them to forage all of there own food or die, though. In the future, when I get more experience, I might find a way to incorporate feeding into my system.


so if they are starving then the "feed" is the way to go.

I am not saying I want them to forage all of there own food or die, not saying it but doing it???

feeding is a life saving measure, use it or not, bees eat sugar, if out then what to do.......
if your area is having dearth every year then I guess keep a bunch of honey frames.

GG


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> if your area is having dearth every year then I guess keep a bunch of honey frames.


This is my first year of beekeeping so I am not well acquainted with the local environment.
I do think that keeping a bunch of honey frames handy is a good idea, though.


Gray Goose said:


> I am not saying I want them to forage all of there own food or die, not saying it but doing it???


That's why I was thinking about uniting this weak colony with the stronger one, so it won't starve and die.

Thanks, GG.

BEEJ


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

Not feeding may be fine some years in some locations, but if you’re dogmatic about it, you are eventually going to lose a lot of bees. Especially if you plan to ever harvest any honey.


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, what are your “own reasons” for not feeding?


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

NUBE said:


> Just out of curiosity, what are your “own reasons” for not feeding?


Thanks for your quick response NUBE!
I should probably clarify things...
I am 100% *not* against feeding.
I just don't _prefer _to spend money on highly refined, white sugar. I plan to leave the bees plenty of honey though-out the year so I can minimize or eliminate feeding for most years. I would rather my bees eat honey, even if white sugar was close to the same thing. It just seems right.

One of my own reasons for not feeding white sugar is that...
-I don't believe it's an ideal food for bees from a nutritional perspective (I think it should be used only in emergencies)
-I also think it would be kind-of cool to say you've never given your bees an ounce of white sugar or meds,etc.
I would appreciate your thoughts, NUBE. Fire away!

BEEJ


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

I had the same mindset when I started on both the feeding and the treatment. The opposition to treating hung around much longer than the opposition to feeding, which didn’t even last a full year. So long as you are prepared to lose bees, possibly all of them, then go for it. If I were you, I’d open up the hives about this time of year and see where they are at. If they don’t have multiple brood frames with large capped bands and at least a frame capped with honey (I’m not terribly familiar with the hive design you’re using, but I do gather the frames are fairly large. For Lang equipment I’d recommended a minimum of several capped frames this time of year) then I’d start feeding. It being your first year, you may be tempted to let them ride even if they’re empty so you can gauge the strength of your fall flow. I’d advise against it. I can pretty much guarantee that your fall flow isn’t strong enough to fill out the hive for a strong, healthy colony to make it through winter if they don’t already have a decent bit of honey stored up.

The desire not to use treatment or “meds” is harder for me to speak against. It could possibly work out for you, idk. I will tell you this much, if you have a strong hive going into winter and they die before spring, or shortly thereafter, while still having plenty of honey, it wasn’t mismanagement, it wasn’t just a harsh winter, it wasn’t a drafty or condensation prone box, it likely wasn’t even a failing Queen that did them in… it was mites.

Good luck to you Bee J.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

NUBE said:


> I had the same mindset when I started on both the feeding and the treatment. The opposition to treating hung around much longer than the opposition to feeding, which didn’t even last a full year. So long as you are prepared to lose bees, possibly all of them, then go for it. If I were you, I’d open up the hives about this time of year and see where they are at. If they don’t have multiple brood frames with large capped bands and at least a frame capped with honey (I’m not terribly familiar with the hive design you’re using, but I do gather the frames are fairly large. For Lang equipment I’d recommended a minimum of several capped frames this time of year) then I’d start feeding. It being your first year, you may be tempted to let them ride even if they’re empty so you can gauge the strength of your fall flow. I’d advise against it. I can pretty much guarantee that your fall flow isn’t strong enough to fill out the hive for a strong, healthy colony to make it through winter if they don’t already have a decent bit of honey stored up.
> 
> The desire not to use treatment or “meds” is harder for me to speak against. It could possibly work out for you, idk. I will tell you this much, if you have a strong hive going into winter and they die before spring, or shortly thereafter, while still having plenty of honey, it wasn’t mismanagement, it wasn’t just a harsh winter, it wasn’t a drafty or condensation prone box, it likely wasn’t even a failing Queen that did them in… it was mites.
> 
> Good luck to you Bee J.


This was helpful! 
I will try to keep posting on this thread to keep everyone informed about how things are going. Stay tuned!

Thanks NUBE, 
BEEJ


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

BEE J said:


> I just don't _prefer _to spend money on highly refined, white sugar. I plan to leave the bees plenty of honey though-out the year so I can minimize or eliminate feeding for most years


have to have a starting plan.
realize honey 3.00 a pound , sugar .50 a pound, so if you think sugar is expensive then honey is tripple.

fall honey goldenrod to be specific can have a lot of ash, IE makes bees poop. the "highly refined" sugar has very little ash.
syrup blended in with fall honey actually makes a better feed for winter than pure goldenrod.

if they have it, then fine and good , if not sugar is a logical step, I would feed before dispatching queens and loosing hive count.

why not take 30 LBs of honey and then buy 120 LB of sugar and have more cleaner feed and come out ahead.

good luck with what ever plan you settle on

GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

BEE J said:


> I know this sounds crazy, but I really didn't want to feed my bees with sugar.


@BEE J:

FWIW- I share your perspective on this and do not feed as a rule.

There are two exceptions I make:

1. If I have made an error that has stifled their ability to build-up or collect naturally, I will feed to make up for my bad beekeeping (happens more frequently than I care to admit).

2. First-year founder colonies (i.e. swarms) that seem otherwise healthy. I can understand that you might have a different thought on this, but I do know that swarms have to get everything just about right in order to make the first year on their own- and so sometimes it may not be a genetic problem but simply a bad break. So I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt by providing a little supplemental feed as might be required- I have not had to do this the last two years.

As GG describes, the work around in future could be to keep some honey back in store on the comb to give it to colonies as might be required.

For me, I tend to do this work late in the season- after any Fall flow but before really cold weather.

I will remove all the surplus and extra boxes and inevitably there are frames that are not quite filled, contain a lot of nectar that is not yet capped or is otherwise less than suitable for extraction- they make fine supplemental winter store opportunities for colonies that need them.


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## Rookiely (5 mo ago)

Thank you!


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## TelmahQ (Jun 3, 2021)

BEE J said:


> Unfortunately, Lazutin hives are so heavy that it makes them impractical to move around. I might be able to in the spring when the hive is lighter, but even then it would be a big job.
> 
> I was able to inspect the hive fairly often, but now there are tons of seed ticks around there.
> In hindsight, though, I think your right. I probably should not have put the hive in the woods.
> ...


Poor choice of hive location (for beekeeper access!) was one of my biggest first year mistakes, too. Fixing that will really help with everything from seasonal observations to catching issues early and intervening accordingly. I waited until early spring so they would be lightest, and moved to a better spot as soon as I could!


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> @BEE J:
> 
> FWIW- I share your perspective on this and do not feed as a rule.
> 
> ...


Sorry it's taken me so long to get back. Yes, I am definitely for feeding under these circumstances. In the future I will probably be giving a lot of my newly caught swarms a boost.


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## TelmahQ (Jun 3, 2021)




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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

That was a good two part video. No surprise I guess, his videos usually are very helpful and concise.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Were having a great fall flow from what I can tell! There's tons of Yellow Crownbeard and also quite a bit of goldenrod.
Several weeks ago swarm #2 died and the wax moths and hive beetles were staring to get into their comb. I put them in the freezer to kill them. I will probably use the empty comb in my swarm traps next year.

How is everyone else's fall flow so far?

BEEJ


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

BEE J said:


> I will probably use the empty comb in my swarm traps next year.


Good call- 



Litsinger said:


> As the late, great George Imirie said, "Drawn comb is your most valuable resource."


It's been a good season thus far in Western Kentucky- but more queen issues than in recent years.

Keep plugging away!


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> Good call-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! I'm sorry about the queen issues.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> but more queen issues than in recent years.


any one near you using fungicide?

GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

BEE J said:


> I'm sorry about the queen issues.





Gray Goose said:


> any one near you using fungicide?


Thanks, guys. I've had 4 colonies that have come up queenless- two secondary swarms, one colony that cast a swarm and did not successfully requeen and one overwintered colony that I'm unclear on.

Due to the warm, dry nature of our season this year, my guess would be that fungicide use was less prevalent than in past years, but that would be a guess on my part.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> Due to the warm, dry nature of our season this year, my guess would be that fungicide use was less prevalent than in past years, but that would be a guess on my part.


That's be good if there was less fungicide recently. I'm a little concerned about where my bees are because there's a big-ag corn field right across from the woods their in. They only spray a few times a year but I still...

Hope next year your colonies will stay more queenright.  

Cheers, BEEJ


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

BEE J said:


> Hope next year your colonies will stay more queenright.


Thanks, @BEE J. Every bee year is different- other than this oddity, everything else has gone really well so I am grateful.

Does your state have a 'Hive Watch' program or similar? While it is voluntary in Kentucky, many agricultural operations will participate and give you some sense of what's going on around you. 

Keep plugging away!

Russ


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> Does your state have a 'Hive Watch' program or similar? While it is voluntary in Kentucky, many agricultural operations will participate and give you some sense of what's going on around you.


Thanks for the tip!


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

The Crownbeard is slowing down now and I don't know if there will be another flow before the cold really sets in. I guess we'll see, but it looks like were about at the end of are season here.

BEEJ


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