# Varroa Mites: An overstated problem?



## JRG13

Some areas might have a lower infestation rate or perhaps your bees are resistant. I'll tell you this though, if you really want to see some mites, just come over to California, there's no shortage here.


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## Lburou

Mark_D said:


> ...Or am I making this assumption prematurely and the mites are headed my way?...


I would bet a lot on that.

The educational journey you have begun is important to your success as a beekeeper. As you pick your mentors, both online and in person, choose those in the mainstream. Listen to those on the fringe, but your best bet is in the mainstream. Read this for a familiarization with the process of ID'ing mite infestations.


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## enjambres

How are you "looking" for mites?

Are you examining the empty cells of worker comb for mite frass?

Do you pull out drone pupae to see if they are being predated?

Do you run sticky boards under your bees, or scrape out and examine the hive trash on the bottom board?

Do you do regular "rolls" (sugar, alcohol or ether)?

Or are you just looking at the bodies of adults as they go about their normal business?

Because if it's the latter, then you probably aren't seeing the mites that are likely to be there.

But, don't worry if your bees start to exhibit gross signs of DWV, you'll recognize that when it happens.

I wouldn't accept the verdict of no mites in my hives until I did regular rolls (as in once/month in the warm season) that never show any mites, for a whole year.

Enj.


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## dudelt

I didn't have any mites either.... until the hives all died from mites. 

I cannot explain why some areas have more or less problems with mites. It can be the location, the genetics of the bees, or any other number of factors. Where I am, I cannot get a new package or nuc through 1 year without treating. I have tried re-queening with local stock, VSH, Russians. Nothing seems to make much of a difference. I am stuck needing to treat for now. You may be one of the lucky ones, for now.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney

What did you base your zero evidence of mites on? All hives have mites, to what degree, and if individual hives can mange an infestation on there own is gene/hive specific. Doing cutouts (& propagating from them) that have been established in residents for numerous years, are a great way to obtain bees that do not need mite treatments. Maybe its because no one has puffed or stuck any into their cavity, and they have adapted.


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## JWChesnut

A statement such as "my hives have no mites" is prima facie evidence that you do have mites, but you simply have not learned the methods to identify the parasite within the hive. 

Try any of the following: 
An alcohol wash of nurse bees
A powder sugar shake of nurse bees
Insert a MAQS strip for 24 hours and observe the mite fall.

Get back to us with your results.


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## Robbin

dudelt said:


> I didn't have any mites either.... until the hives all died from mites.


+1 Unfortunately, that's how a lot of us figured out that we had mites, and educated ourselves on how to count them, and treat for them. 

Do yourself a favor, don't wait till your hives die...


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## beemandan

JWChesnut said:


> Get back to us with your results.


Or...wait until this time next year...and let us know how they're doing.


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## roberto487

I thought I was mite free until I need a powder sugar shake, although, not much mite but they were there.


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## DirtyLittleSecret

I've had several local beginning beeks tell me they "dont have mites" but want help diagnosing why their hives were dead or not growing. Most are trying to go "au naturale" or TF. Every time it was unquestionably mites. Total of 12 hives lost. Makes me wonder just how big do people expect mites to be? LOL


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## BeeHoosier

Isn't it more or less a fact that virtually all bees colonies will have some mites? I am still learning about some aspects of beekeeping but I will offer my thoughts. I thought the concern was the fact that in many problem cases the mites become over-populated and the colony isn't able to survive. It seems bees in the wild don't seem to have as many mite problems. As I understand it, colonies in the wild that don't seem to have mite problems are often in smaller quarters than the numerous large colonies that are kept in close proximity in many apiaries/backyards. Those Colonies in nature are free to swarm more often as they outgrow the small areas. When a colony swarms it changes the brood situation and the mites cannot thrive (as I understand it the mites needs the larvae). It seems like the mite problem gets worse when in an apiary/backyard because their colonies don't swarm as often or at all (which makes sense because they don't want to lose bees), but then they are forced to treat a colony for mites. I think it comes down to a trade off. Sometimes I think people are too quick to treat something (not just related to bees) and pay a bit of a price in order to gain something else...sometimes you come out ahead, but often the long term price may be worse.


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## tsmullins

JRG13 said:


> Some areas might have a lower infestation rate or perhaps your bees are resistant. I'll tell you this though, if you really want to see some mites, just come over to California, there's no shortage here.


No shortage of mites in SW VA as well. They are a real bummer.

Shane


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## Vance G

I hope your shortage of mites continues! About 18 months into the colonies lifespan if untreated, you may see a change. Your bees will be just gone! CCD! or froze to death. Learn to do sugar rolls or alcohol washes and verify you don't have a problem is my advice.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

After a deadout take a magnifying glass and count the little boogers.


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## Riverderwent

BeeHoosier said:


> When a colony swarms it changes the brood situation and the mites cannot thrive (as I understand it the mites needs the larvae).


That is a fascinating idea. You are suggesting that the swarming not only protects the swarm, but also the original colony that is left behind. Presumably, this is because there is a brood break in the mother hive associated with the swarm preparations.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

beemandan said:


> Or...wait until this time next year...and let us know how they're doing.


Or if they are doing anything at all....


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## jwcarlson

Got into beekeeping last year as in... this is your first winter?
I got lucky during the first winter, my guess is you'll be wondering why your brood looks like trash come late April-Early May. Maybe even wondering if you had EFB like I did.

Before Treatment:


After Treatment:

Same queen, same colony...

Brood pattern isn't the end all-be-all... don't get me wrong.

But here's some beautiful evidence of mites:






Considering the fact that varroa is the leading cause of death for honey bees... I'd say it's understated if anything.


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## Honey-4-All

They say a fool is easily parted from his money.

To follow that up in my bee keeping vernacular I would say that a fool who believes mites are not and will not bee a problem will soon be soon parted from his bees. 

There isn't a nuclear bomb big enough in the world to place under the fanny of the dolt who introduced them critters to the US. :waiting: 

The feeling of wanting to extract every ounce of plasma from that nut does not come from the fact that they are no big deal. Live with them for 25 years spending every waking hour on how to keep them in their caves and off your bees will change you mind right quick.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

My experiences were exactly the same Carlson. Thought it was EFB. Nuked em and cleared up.


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## sqkcrk

The positive aspects of Varroa mites have been understated.

Be patient, Mark_D, varroa are on their way.


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## mbevanz

Put 1 apivar strip into your biggest cluster. Put a sticky board in at same time. Go back in 24 hours. Youll know then you have mites. And a good idea of how many.


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## lharder

Nope not overstated, but bees are coming up with solutions when left to their own devices. The active treating delays genetic adaption. There seems to be more and more cases TF pockets. 

Go to the TF forum and read squarepegs account of how it can be. 

I believe Jason Bruns is in your area and keeps bees TF with feral genetics. Look up his site and see how he does it.


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## DirtyLittleSecret

lharder said:


> Nope not overstated, but bees are coming up with solutions when left to their own devices. The active treating delays genetic adaption. There seems to be more and more cases TF pockets.


Have read many of squarepeg's posts and huge respect. However, these are pockets as you stated and not generally sustainable and almost exclusively obtainable under extraordinary circumstances. Dont get me wrong...this is the direction I am working towards myself, but it would be disingenuous to say that the bees will come up with their own solutions when dead. I agree that the traditional previous practices have set us back from development of genetics (many would even say we've eliminated many critical genetic pools). Hence the reason locally raised stock is so important.


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## lharder

Bees that survive have developed without human interference. If our methods were so good, then we would be ahead of what nature has done. So yes they have come up with solutions based on natural selection (a basic biological principle that I would NEVER call disingenuous), we have not, fact. 

If we stopped interfering with the process and started working with natural processes, pockets like we see in the Arnot forest would be far more widespread.


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## Norcalkyle

You can't say that human intervention and mite treatment is bad when humans are the reasons mites are in the US in the first place. If nature was left alone, the mites would have stayed in Africa and we wouldn't have to deal with them... in fact, if humans didn't intervene we wouldn't have bees here to keep us occupied


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## JRG13

Problem is population density of commercial bees is abnormal as well. You can't expect Arnot Forest models to work in these situations. If everyone stopped treating, the results would be a disaster to say the least, especially for any feral bees which would become a very rare commodity very quickly and disappear almost completely within a couple years of a commercial crash that a sudden stop of treating would create. On a side note, the varroa population would be greatly diminished as well but most bees left would become under managed conditions very quickly and I'm betting the mites would adapt rather quickly again.


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## aunt betty

Re-entered beekeeping last spring. Had to assume I had mites because everyone else does. Got out the sugar and a jar, tested, and sure enough I have them and I have or had 26 colonies last fall. Treated all the stronger ones and will re-treat this spring on the ones I did not do last fall. 

The people I talked to with much experience with mites say that you might get thru first year without treating but you'll be either treating them second year or losing all your bees. 

Hopeful thinking is no good. Test for mites and if you find more than 3 or 4 when you do a sugar shake you must assume you have to treat for them. 

On the lighter side: It is your money, your bees, and I'm quite sure there are people who would love to sell you more bees every season. (myself included).


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## Mike Gillmore

Mark_D said:


> In fact, one of the cutouts I did last year at a house the resident told me the bees had been there for 4-5 years.


This is also something to take with a grain of salt. Sometimes "residents" who are not beekeepers may miss a few vital details. 

It could very well be that these bees are resistant to mites. There is also a real possibility that the colony has been dying out every winter and swarms are re-occupying in the spring. The residents may not even know this is happening. To them it appears that the same colony of bees has been there for years.


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## Riverderwent

Mike Gillmore said:


> There is also a real possibility that the colony has been dying out every winter and swarms are re-occupying in the spring.


In the area where I live, doing a few dozen cutouts at different times of year will persuade you that in this area what you describe is the exception rather than the rule.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney

aunt betty said:


> The people I talked to with much experience with mites say that you might get thru first year without treating but you'll be either treating them second year or losing all your bees.


Try to find peps in your area who are doing it, if that is your goal. In my experience, people told me the same thing, & I quickly realized that I was hanging out with the wrong people to accomplish my goal Yes cutout hives come & go just like swarms & one does not truly know their "heritage", but at least you have a leg up, & can decide what to do if your mite counts reach a "threshold" that one feels they must intervene. That is, if your into that sort of thing


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

The point I would like to make is that even if the honeybee were allowed to naturally breed for resistance to the mites more than likely they would not be suited for any type of production honey or pollination. The bees do not need to produce surplus honey. They do not need to grow 2 large populations. All they need is to survive long enough to reproduce. Likely we would have a strain of honey bee that absconded often, had small populations, and produced very little honey. Nature does not require them to be profitable. Careful what you wish for.


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## lharder

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> The point I would like to make is that even if the honeybee were allowed to naturally breed for resistance to the mites more than likely they would not be suited for any type of production honey or pollination. The bees do not need to produce surplus honey. They do not need to grow 2 large populations. All they need is to survive long enough to reproduce. Likely we would have a strain of honey bee that absconded often, had small populations, and produced very little honey. Nature does not require them to be profitable. Careful what you wish for.


Ferals display a wide range of behaviour depending on habitat. There are lots of reasons why they would retain the genetic diversity for large colonies in large cavities if they were available. As I stated before, large multiyear productive colonies are often found by those doing cutouts. We know from the Arnot bees that survivors retain allelic diversity. If they have it, productivity can be built back up with bees that survive.


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