# Migratory lids



## Father & Sons Apiary

Post pictures of your lids, Trying to figure out new ideas.


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## westernbeekeeper




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## KevinR

No picture of mine, but they look like the second picture in WesternBeekeepers. Except I have a dado down the middle where the top boards enter. Not sure I'd do it that way again in the future. Extra machining time, and the wood is weaken at the dado. I've had a few split from staples..


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## matt1954

Here you go!


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## sqkcrk

Are yours plywood w/ two 1X3s on top?

What are you trying to figure out F&SA?


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## Ian

I have adopted the same lid as western also , I have tried using boards but never again. Now it's 3/4" plywood dipped all the way. 
The boards shrink regardless how dry you buy them, as each board dries differently and spaces always form. Also with the boards rot much quicker as syrup drippage finds it's way into the wood easier.
Tops look good guys!


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## sqkcrk

Why do you have syrup dripping onto your covers?


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## Ian

Hive top pail feeders. I feed through a hole in the cover


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## KevinR

What's the lifespan of a plywood top, before it starts to warp/delaminate?


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## grozzie2

What do you do about the feeder hole when not feeding ? Do you plug it with something ?


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## sqkcrk

Ian said:


> Hive top pail feeders. I feed through a hole in the cover


I see. Makes sense. I have a friend who has plywood migratory covers which are simply flat boards the size of the hive. He drills a hole the size of a standard door knob hole and has no problems w/ rotting covers. Maybe you should use pressure treated plywood?


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## Ian

The plywood tops do not rot, the slabs do . The spaces in between the boards is the problem , I found


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## sqkcrk

Oh, yeah, that's what you said. Sorry.


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## Chip Euliss

I get cypress boards that are 17 inches wide and 3/4 inch thick so don't have to splice them together. Cypress is naturally rot-resistant and should outlast me. Otherwise, pretty much as Ian's set up but I have 1/2 inch spacers to raise the lid above the top box; I wanted the space to make a little more room for patties. I also leave about a 1/2 inch gap on one of the long sides of the lid to provide a top entrance and a little ventilation when it's hot. I reverse the lid so the opening faces the adjacent hive on a pallet when I make nucs to reduce robbing. I get the cypress from a small family-owned saw mill in east Texas.


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## mgolden

The other thing I noticed about Ian's is that he uses a 3 1/2 width cleat on top and hence, no but joint on top. This avoids the joint on top and ???any rotting caused by water ingress.

Check Steppler Farms/Steppler Honey and October 2013.

Good pic of his bee hive "towers".


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## Ian

I guess the other way would provide more support to the side cleat. Probably preferable . I do some router work which really allows the glue to hold.


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## Ian

mgolden said:


> Good pic of his bee hive "towers".


I like to stack em


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## BeeGhost

My simple migratory lids with a 2 1/2" top entrance that be closed up or reduced with duct tape when needed.


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## babybee

Is that box hot wax dipped beeghost?


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## BeeGhost

babybee said:


> Is that box hot wax dipped beeghost?


Nope, just stained with redwood stain that I had laying around! They seem to be holding up good and the farmer where I keep my bees likes how they look! LOL


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## Shouse

Bee Ghost can you make a lid with a cleat front and back with a 1 inch "beehole" 
How much?


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## Charlie B

BeeGhost said:


> My simple migratory lids with a 2 1/2" top entrance that be closed up or reduced with duct tape when needed.


BG,

Post a pic of the underside. How did you make that hole?


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## BeeGhost

Charlie,
Its a real simple entrance, just cut your plywood top to the box dimensions and cut out a 2 1/2" x 2" notch out of the plywood where you want the entrance to be, then slap a cleat on top and there you have it!! I use 5/8" plywood for the tops so the entrance depth is 5/8".


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## Charlie B

Great idea, thanks Dude


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## BeeGhost

Shouse said:


> Bee Ghost can you make a lid with a cleat front and back with a 1 inch "beehole"
> How much?


It could be done easily. If I had to guess, I could make each top for less than $4 depending on the price of wood. I also glue the cleats as well as staple them. A bottle of Titebond III goes a long ways as well!

The same plywood migratory tops at Mann Lake are $11 without the top entrance.


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## Shouse

What about screwing them. Glue is great and necessary, but staples would not last the age of the wood.

Need 3/4 inch pressure treated plywood.


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## Mbeck

Here is another thread

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...on-Migratory-Covers&highlight=Migratory+Mbeck

Photos of mine are posted,of course I stole the design


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## BeeGhost

Shouse said:


> What about screwing them. Glue is great and necessary, but staples would not last the age of the wood.
> 
> Need 3/4 inch pressure treated plywood.


The cost starts going up with those materials. If my current covers last 3 years before hitting the burn pile, i'll be happy!! If they last longer, then the bon fire will have to wait!!! LOL 

Im not sure how long my covers will last, I have painted ones and unpainted ones on my hives for experimentation purposes, if the painted ones last a lot longer, I will paint them. If the unpainted ones serve their purpose for a few years, then I wont paint them. 

Im sure pressure treated plywood would last quite a while, but the cost per sheet is probably double as well, not sure though. 

As for the staples, they are used to mostly hold the pieces together while the glue sets. If I was going to install cleats on the bottom, I would use screws and solid wood for them, not plywood since the plywood would delaminate rendering the screw useless.

Im going to mess around and make a migratory cover with bottom cleats as well as a top entrance!


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## Mbeck

I have a few that I got from another beekeeper like the ones in the photo I posted.
They are plywood w/ top and side cleat and rims all stapled. They are dipped and painted and look old as dirt they seem to weather excellent. I would guess they'll last more than 10 years made like this. At least the ones I don't run over etc.


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## Shouse

BeeGhost said:


> The cost starts going up with those materials. If my current covers last 3 years before hitting the burn pile, i'll be happy!! If they last longer, then the bon fire will have to wait!!! LOL
> 
> Im not sure how long my covers will last, I have painted ones and unpainted ones on my hives for experimentation purposes, if the painted ones last a lot longer, I will paint them. If the unpainted ones serve their purpose for a few years, then I wont paint them.
> 
> Im sure pressure treated plywood would last quite a while, but the cost per sheet is probably double as well, not sure though.
> 
> As for the staples, they are used to mostly hold the pieces together while the glue sets. If I was going to install cleats on the bottom, I would use screws and solid wood for them, not plywood since the plywood would delaminate rendering the screw useless.
> 
> Im going to mess around and make a migratory cover with bottom cleats as well as a top entrance!


Well let me know, I'm right down the street from you and would be happy to buy you lunch sometime.
I've always believed in some type of top entrance, drilling a hole in the top box becomes problematic unless you drill all the holes in ALL your boxes because of switching them from top to bottom. Your entrance on the lid solves that problem. 10 years will long outlast me, 3 years, God willing will not.


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## odfrank

Charlie B said:


> BG,Post a pic of the underside. How did you make that hole?


You didn't really ask that question, did you, Charlie?


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## sqkcrk

What do they weigh, BeeGhost?


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## Markt

Shouse said:


> What about screwing them. Glue is great and necessary, but staples would not last the age of the wood.
> 
> Need 3/4 inch pressure treated plywood.


Maybe I'm wrong but pressure treated wood contains arsenic and a few other nasty chemicals... I would be extremely hesitant to put it in direct contact with bees.


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## acbz

Markt said:


> Maybe I'm wrong but pressure treated wood contains arsenic and a few other nasty chemicals... I would be extremely hesitant to put it in direct contact with bees.


The EPA phased out arsenic treated wood several years back. All the new stuff (ACQ) is treated with a copper compound that is less toxic to kids munching it on the playground yet more problematic. Take note that it's highly corrosive to steel and requires hot-dipped galvanized or ceramic coated fasteners, otherwise it will quickly rust the fasteners. On my pallets the only non-treated wood is the plywood decks.


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## Markt

Huh. Good to know


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## jim lyon

.....and in the same vein. In my quest to build a better pallet I stumbled on to a super closeout deal on some stainless screws which were only slightly more expensive than the recommended triple dipped galvanized screws. Big mistake, they snap really easily.


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## mgolden

jim lyon said:


> .....and in the same vein. In my quest to build a better pallet I stumbled on to a super closeout deal on some stainless screws which were only slightly more expensive than the recommended triple dipped galvanized screws. Big mistake, they snap really easily.


Also noticed that you(Jim) do not have cleats on the top. Would guess this makes loading easier and faster. And do you lose little in load stability without the cleat on top? 

Suspect, a further down side of cleat on top is rotting under the cleat.


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## jim lyon

It's mostly a case of using the materials that we got a good buy on. We have bought several semi loads of 1/2" cement board in the past 10 years. It's 90+% of all our lids and bottoms. It keeps loads both lower and lighter and the stuff lasts forever. We sort out the best boards for lids and those with rivet holes serve as drains in the bottoms. The downsides, of course, are they blow off easier, it takes a shim for a top entrance and no recess for mite treatments and pollen sub. We just use a strip of the same stuff on the bottom for a cleat to help hold the lid in place and fasten it with 5d galvanized nails clinched each way.


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## mgolden

Any thoughts on going without the top cleat. 

Without is lower cost in material and labor to build? How is loading and load stability without it?????????


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## BeeGhost

odfrank said:


> You didn't really ask that question, did you, Charlie?


That right there is funny!!!LMAO


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## jim lyon

mgolden said:


> Any thoughts on going without the top cleat.
> 
> Without is lower cost in material and labor to build? How is loading and load stability without it?????????


I see the main function of the top cleat as stabilizing the 1" board from warpage. It really has no bearing on load stability as the bottom cross boards of a standard pallet rest well inside of the cleat. The problem is finding good quality plywood that dosent warp.


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## Ian

Same here, the reason I use a top cleat is to keep my boards straight. Plywood rairly moves the long way, but seems to always move the short way. It's the way they lay the grain.


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## mgolden

What I am getting??, is that the top cleat isn't all that important for load stability but rather preventing plywood from warping.

Attached is a photo from M Bush site. I thinking a wide enough cleat, 1 1/4 inch on the under side installed with wood screws, maybe a bead of PL300, should be enough to stop most of the warpage. A water proof board such as advantec(?spellling) or cement board makes things better yet.









Simplifies materials/cost, construction, rotting under top cleat and butt joint


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## AstroZomBEE

I use a slightly over sized 16 1/4" x 20 1/2" sheet of 3/4 cheeseboard, with a 70g hole drilled in the center to accommodate a feed jar as necessary. The hole is filled with an old cap while the feed jar hole is not being utilized.

http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/astrozombee79/library/Migratory Cover


Aaron

No need to paint, Also mine don't warp, well I'd say less than 1% warp which is low enough for me.

And generally they get destroyed by forklifts long before they ever rot.

And we use Economy 5lb honey jars as feeders or 2 gallon buckets.


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## KevinR

AstroZomBee, 

Looks like your running plywood hive bodies? If you are, what type of life do you see out of them? Any downsides other than weight?


On the migratory tops, I wonder how the top horizontal cleat compares below the top vertical cleat. In terms of longevity and keeping the top straight...

-Kevin


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## My-smokepole

AstroZomBee
Where are you getting the cheeseboard 
David


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## AstroZomBEE

A lot of our boxes are a combination of cheeseboard and pine pieces. They would last a very long time if people don't run bobcat forks through them.

As for a source, it's hard to come buy, but when you find it they normally have semi loads of it. I get mine from an intermediary source who supplies the cheese companies with new cheeseboards and have to unload the used stuff. it comes in pretty rough, have to resquare it up on 2 sides then start making what ever pieces you can. I normally get one cover and one deep sider per sheet of cheeseboard.


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## acbz

What Astrozombee said. 
The only warped lids I have are the ones made from expensive plywood. The cheeseboard doesn't warp and I use 1/2" for lids.


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## KevinR

What's the difference between cheeseboard and regular plywood?


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## Mbeck

I bet the lids I have from an other beekeeper where made from cheese board before they were dipped. I'll have to ask once he gets back from cheesehead land!

Astrozombee,
How do you transport the glass jars? Filled in milk crates?
What plastic buckets do you use? Happy with them?


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## Roland

Watch the insults. There might be a sensitive Cheesehead on this forum.

Crazy Roland the Cheesehead.


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## azbees

20131203_090147.jpg1.33 MB 
here is my lid


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## azbees

sorry having trouble loading pic. I can't figure it out. it loads but not sure how to post it.


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## RAK

Use photobucket if you cant get it to work.


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## KevinR

When you click on the attach image... You can select the "basic" uploader. There is a browse to the file.. Then under that is a text "upload" It's a button, click on it..

I can never get the default uploader to work.


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## Honey-4-All

BeeGhost said:


> My simple migratory lids with a 2 1/2" top entrance that be closed up or reduced with duct tape when needed.


Have you used these plywood lids very long? Doesn't matter how much paint your pour on them. I can't imagine them being beetight longer than 2 or 3 years. Rotten at 4 or 5. Ouch!!!

With the right plywood you can get 15-20 years out of them. Made the first ones when my son was born and the first ones failed about 3 years back. His timeline to purchasing his first OTC sidearm is less than a year away so you know they've lasted quite a while. Hundreds currently in the rotation. 

At this rate they cost me about $.35-$.45 a year per lid with all expenses included. (Wood, paint, cleats, screws.) 7 ply resin impregnated paper two sides 3/4" with dipped cleats and 10+ paint.


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## azbees

[attach=confident


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## azbees

finally got a picture in. thanks for your help.too bad its poor quality. anyway the side cleat has a 3/4" groove which keeps the plywood from warping. we also use small strip of 3/8" on bottom for patties. down side is they like to build wax in that space. this lid is about 5 yrs , barely gets any rain though.


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## azbees

I also have some for top entrance just cut out a section of the 3/8 strip and side cleat. its 2 cuts for each lid.


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## BeeGhost

Honey-4-All said:


> Have you used these plywood lids very long? Doesn't matter how much paint your pour on them. I can't imagine them being beetight longer than 2 or 3 years. Rotten at 4 or 5. Ouch!!!


Like I said, if I get 3 years out of them I will be happy!! When I get free material to do them, im even happier!!


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## AstroZomBEE

KevinR said:


> What's the difference between cheeseboard and regular plywood?


Cheeseboard comes already treated in paraffin, only definite difference I know of.

It sheds water very well, but does need flipped every year or so to keep a waxy coating on the outside.

Aaron


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## AstroZomBEE

Mbeck said:


> Astrozombee,
> How do you transport the glass jars? Filled in milk crates?
> What plastic buckets do you use? Happy with them?


I use palletized bins, normally holds around 200 jars each.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

On the cheeseboard. I saw some at a beekeeper's place I visited on Sunday. They looked fantastic. I could even see making furniture out of them - but then again I live in Wisconsin...


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## AstroZomBEE

While cheeseboard is of a definite higher standard than average plywood. It still varies, even within the stack when I receive it. Some cheeseboard has up to 12 layers which is great for cutting out items that need a lot more precision. and some only has 6 layers which starts falling apart in the finer cuts making it great for covers, but not for making specialty queen rearing frames.

And the stuff I get comes in pretty beat up around the edges, it takes quite a bit of labor to get them trimmed down to a square edge and roughly the same size.

And for some reason there are sometimes wholes in the cheeseboard put there on purpose, what the purpose was I have no idea.

The Board are all mixed up also when I get them. Different sizes, shapes, and whole configurations.

ramble, ramble, ramble.....

hope you enjoyed the rambling

Aaron


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## odfrank

Warning: Do not use pallet wood.
I made these about 2005 out of some beautiful 7/8" thick cedar that came packaging large boxed trees I planted. It appeared to be great wood, but must be wide grained, second growth. The wood is so unstable that even with a prime coat the paint won't stick. I tongue and grooved the board joints, they open up and close about 1/4". Soft pithy areas began to rot and grow fungus on some covers within two years. Recently I used some leftover torch roofing to cover the joints of some of the remaining ones.


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## BCHoneyFarm

What's the right plywood? Just picked up ten sheets and a 1/4 of them are warping before I even cut it.


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## RAK

HDO


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## BCHoneyFarm

HDO? Sorry what is that stand for.


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## DPBsbees

BCHoneyFarm said:


> HDO? Sorry what is that stand for.


High Density Overlay


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## BCHoneyFarm

Man its pricey, but if I don't have to keep replacing covers every 3 to 5 years it's well worth it. So im assuming I still need to give it a few coats of paint. Thanks again


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## swarm_trapper

you are from WI? i think lots of guys up there use the cheese board. it comes from somewhere in WI some one there would know better i just heard that.


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## Mbeck

Isnt it just regular plywood impregnated with something?
There must be a way to recreate it? Wax dipping?

There might be a lot Wisconsin cheese board availible soon.

http://m.host.madison.com/news/loca...56e2-830e-0ffb2700a6bb.html?mobile_touch=true


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

I starting using some stuff last year from Lowe's called Advantech. It was recommended by several here on beesource. Its only been on the hive 8 months but so far no warping and no cleats. I just cut a piece the size of the hive, ran my dado blade in the front a few times for an approx. 2" x 3/8" upper entrance, and painted. No problems at all. At $2.50 a lid and minimal labor that's all I'll use from now on.


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## jim lyon

pine_ridge_farms said:


> I starting using some stuff last year from Lowe's called Advantech. It was recommended by several here on beesource. Its only been on the hive 8 months but so far no warping and no cleats. I just cut a piece the size of the hive, ran my dado blade in the front a few times for an approx. 2" x 3/8" upper entrance, and painted. No problems at all. At $2.50 a lid and minimal labor that's all I'll use from now on.


Is it paintable? Keep us posted how it holds up long term.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

jim lyon said:


> Is it paintable? Keep us posted how it holds up long term.


Paint seems to be sticking good. Others on beesource have talked about using it for 5 to 10 years unpainted and holding up great. I soaked a piece in a jar of water for a few weeks and didn't have any delaminating.


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## snl

I've used Advantech for both tops and bottoms (unpainted) for the past 5 years. Except for a some discoloration from the rain & sun, they hold up great. Can't really see any difference in them (except for the discoloration) since the day I put them in service..........


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## camero7

jim lyon said:


> Is it paintable? Keep us posted how it holds up long term.


Been using it for about 4 years. I don't bother to paint although it will hold paint well. It doesn't warp and the beauty is that Home Depot will cut a sheet to size for free, so I take the lids home all made. No problems so far and they are holding up well. I'm slowly replacing all my lids as the old ones fail.


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## Trapper

All I can find at Lowes and Home Depot is Advantech osb for subfloors. Is this what everyone's using ?


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## camero7

That's the stuff


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## snl

Trapper said:


> All I can find at Lowes and Home Depot is Advantech osb for subfloors. Is this what everyone's using ?


That's what I'm using 3/4". Make sure it's Advantech. Advantech sprays their name on each piece. In my neck of the woods, only Lowes carries Advantech. Home Depot _*SAYS*_ they have it, but what they showed me does NOT have the name Advantech on it....... so look.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

Trapper said:


> All I can find at Lowes and Home Depot is Advantech osb for subfloors. Is this what everyone's using ?


Yep Advantech from Lowes. I can't find it at Home Depot either. It looks like ordinary OSB but it's not.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

snl said:


> I've used Advantech for both tops and bottoms (unpainted) for the past 5 years. Except for a some discoloration from the rain & sun, they hold up great. Can't really see any difference in them (except for the discoloration) since the day I put them in service..........


Are you making your bottoms with two rails down the side and a piece to fill in the back or are you stapling a rim all the way around the advantech?


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## snl

pine_ridge_farms said:


> Are you making your bottoms with two rails down the side and a piece to fill in the back or are you stapling a rim all the way around the advantech?


See this link... http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?293830-Solid-Bottom-Board-and-Top-Cover


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