# Why a cell starter and finisher?



## David LaFerney

A queenless starter/finisher will work quite well - and is more managable for a dozen or so cells, but for large numbers of high quality cells a queenright finisher is going to be better. As you figured, you are using the swarm impulse to get it to produce lots of cells just like a big strong swarmy hive, and if you aren't careful you might make it actually swarm. 

A queenless hive will never swarm no matter how strong you make it - but the foragers will drift to queenright hives.

If you have one big strong hive you could conceivably produce a batch of 40 or 80 cells, but how many mating nucs can you put together at once?

I use JZBZs cups right out of the bag - no wax, no putting them in the hive first - and I usually get about an 80% take, and I'm not really very good at it.


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## Brad Bee

Thanks for the reply David.


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## Oldtimer

To fully answer your question requires a book. So here's just a basic principle why queenless starter then queenright finisher.

The queenless starter should be set up with plenty bees and food then left long enough to realise they are queenless, then grafted cells are added. the bees now know they need to raise queen cells, and suddenly queen cells ready to raise appear in their midst, so they start work.

It doesn't take the bees too long though to realise they are starting a lot more cells than they need, because a queenless hive (which the starter is) is only needing one queen. So after a day or so they may stop caring for some of the cells or raise them poorly, that's depending how many cells you give them. So to solve that problem, at normally 24 hours the cells are transferred to a strong queenright colony. The queenright colony will raise more cells to a good standard because they will see cell raising as a swarming attempt and it is natural for swarming bees to build a good number of cells, all well cared for.


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## Bees of SC

Thank you Oldtimer, now I see what I have been doing , not wrong, just not right.


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## David LaFerney

Oldtimer - as with so many things once it's explained it seems obvious. That completely explains why my queenless starter finisher consistently produces about a dozen good cells at a time - if I give them 15 grafts or 30 - they still finish between 11-14 almost every time.


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## Brad Bee

Thanks for the reply Oldtimer, that makes good sense. I'm only going to try and raise about 20 cells, but my old football coach told me to "practice like I played" so I want to do the procedure the same way I would if I were trying to raise 50 cells. That will come next year. 

While I'm on the subject of raising queens, I KNOW that my observations are on an extremely small scale compared to most of you but I wanted to throw something out there for you big guys to chew on.

Last year I started with 4 hives and expanded to 18 by summers end. That means that 14 queens (tiny reference size, I know) were raised and mated here. I had 100% success rate with queens being mated and returning from their mating flights. Due to having no good swarm cells to use, this year I have only raised 2 queens so far. One in late March and one in late April. This is even a smaller sample size, but both queens are now mated and laying great.

So in 2 seasons, I've raised 16 queens. No big deal, but I have had 100% success with them going through the mating process. I have read that a good average is around 85% so I've either been really lucky or I have something in my favor.

I don't believe in luck, and I will have more confirmation, either positive or negative, of what I think is helping after raising my first grafted queens.

I have a colony of Purple Martins that has averaged 95 pair per year, for the past decade. When I first started keeping bees, some of the locals told me that I'd never bee successful with bees unless I got rid of the Martins. If that were the case, I would have stopped keeping bees. We also have about 40 pairs of Barn Swallows and 20 pairs of Tree Swallows that nest here on the farm.

I have since read that Dragonflies prey on queen bees on their mating flights. I don't know if this is true or not, but it just so happens that Dragonflies are one of the most highly preyed on insects by Purple Martins.

Maybe it's a coincidence and I will update my findings after I raise more queens.


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## Oldtimer

David LaFerney said:


> That completely explains why my queenless starter finisher consistently produces about a dozen good cells at a time - if I give them 15 grafts or 30 - they still finish between 11-14 almost every time.


Yes that is exactly typical. A queenless starter hive provided it has plenty of bees can normally finish 10 to 16 cells to a good standard. But common commercial practise is to get the starter hive to start 64 cells, that is way to many for a queenless hive to mess with to completion, they will not finish that many and most of the ones they do will be poorly fed.

Brad Bee you've done so well it should be you giving the advice, well done! Swarming bees raise the best possible queens, nourishing them well, so mating success is very high if using swarm cells, failures are rare. Grafted cells the success tends not to be 100% so you may have some misses. As your plan is to raise 20 cells, that is more than a queenless starter hive is likely to raise well from start to finish. But if you did 2 batches of 10, they could be left in the starter till capped and would be well raised, if that suits you better.


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## Oldtimer

Bees of SC said:


> now I see what I have been doing , not wrong, just not right.


Sorry but just got to answer that one. Not sure what you are doing but there are MANY ways to raise queens. So most beekeepers who been doing it a while end up with a system that works well for them. But someone else may be doing something totally different that still works well. If whatever you are doing works, it's good.


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## Sasha

Many different ways indeed. I've seen a very large queen breeding operation using queenless starter finishers all the time.


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## David LaFerney

Oldtimer said:


> Yes that is exactly typical. A queenless starter hive provided it has plenty of bees can normally finish 10 to 16 cells to a good standard. But common commercial practise is to get the starter hive to start 64 cells, that is way to many for a queenless hive to mess with to completion, they will not finish that many and most of the ones they do will be poorly fed.


It also probably explains the problem of cells being torn down at the 11th hour - only a swarmy hive would finish a large number of cells, and as the season progresses the flow slows and it is harder to keep them in swarm mode. Thus the need for incubators. 

This thread has been one of those lightbulb experiences.


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## David LaFerney

Sasha said:


> Many different ways indeed. I've seen a very large queen breeding operation using queenless starter finishers all the time.


That's true, but how many cells are they culturing in a batch? I think it's a great method for many of us - but it's good to understand the limits.


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## Brad Bee

Does it matter if the cell starter is hopelessly queenless before grafts are put in? I'm on a tight timeline to get my grafts in. I have a family trip, then a week home, then a mission trip coming up and if I'm going to graft, I have to do so by Tuesday of this week. If I wait past then, I'll have to wait 3 weeks and we conditions here by that time will be hot and dearthish.


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## Oldtimer

2 hours queenless is generally enough.

Something to be aware of, queen substance that tells the bees they have a queen, is not a gas, it's a physical substance that gets passed around by bee to bee physical contact. So if bees only are dumped into a starter with different combs with no queen substance on them, they are going to realise they are queenless faster than bees on their own combs as there will be queen substance on their combs as well which will take longer to dissipate. But as a general rule of thumb, 2 hours.


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## marshmasterpat

Really enlightening thread. Thanks folks.


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## Dave1958

That explains much. I've tried grafting repeatedly. I'm always light on bees can't get my numbers up because of winter losses. The cell builder I made was 3 frames of bees that were not flying on frames of capped brood. Then I swept the bees off of 3 other frames. Now I realize it's light on bees, but it was best I could put together. If I get 8- 10, I can get several 2 frame mating nucs. I also realize my cell builder may be better in a week to give me 8- 10 more cells. Once mated its my intention to break my major hive apart around July 1. I need queens to do that


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## Sasha

60 Cells per colony. Referring to question about how many cells per queenless starter finisher.


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## Daznz

Have you tried the cloake board system Old Timer?


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## Oldtimer

No never tried it but no doubt it's a good way.

I sometimes do something similar, just split the hive and put the box with the queen on a new lid and bottom board behind the (now) queenless box on the original bottom board. let the queenless box start some cells then reunite them with the cells in the second box over a queen excluder.


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## Daznz

Oldtimer said:


> No never tried it but no doubt it's a good way.
> 
> I sometimes do something similar, just split the hive and put the box with the queen on a new lid and bottom board behind the (now) queenless box on the original bottom board. let the queenless box start some cells then reunite them with the cells in the second box over a queen excluder.


Cheers Oldtimer, to think the cloakes used to deliver honey to my father in the early 50s in the south island great to see an NZ invention being used all around the world


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## Oldtimer

Oh, I didn't notice you from NZ, Daz.


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## Matt903

Oldtimer you need to write a book


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## Oldtimer

Thought about it but realised I would look at it 10 years later and be embarrassed by all the mistakes I made in it. I believe beekeeping is a lifetime of learning and at the end of it we have still not unravelled all the wonderful mysteries in the ways of bees.


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## David LaFerney

That's why you publish 2nd editions. You really should though - your writing is quite good and your hands on experience and technical knowledge is clearly substantial.


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## Daznz

Oldtimer said:


> Oh, I didn't notice you from NZ, Daz.


<We better catch up for a coldly next time I'm up your way


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## Oldtimer

Sure, if you in Auckland drop me a text, 027 4725 914


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## DanielD

I haven't had the time to try to understand the queen rearing with starter/finisher hives before. Didn't try because I thought it was going to take a few hours that I haven't had in the last couple years to figure out the process. I swerved into this thread and understand it to a degree now in just a few minutes. I have a an assumption and questions on this. Oldtimer, could you answer these for me? I am assuming the queen right hive would never start the grafts as queens, which is why the starter hive. The question is, would the finisher hive actually swarm with these cells made, since there were no preparations made prior to the cells being added? And, when would it be necessary to remove the cells from the finisher?

Thanks for the insight Oldtimer.


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## Oldtimer

DanielD said:


> I am assuming the queen right hive would never start the grafts as queens, which is why the starter hive?


Not never. But generally they will accept from a small portion, to none. The exception is right on swarming time, when a queenright finisher will accept new grafts with such eagerness and make such a good job of them that I don't even bother with a starter hive at that time.



DanielD said:


> would the finisher hive actually swarm with these cells made, since there were no preparations made prior to the cells being added? And, when would it be necessary to remove the cells from the finisher?


This is location dependent. In some places I worked (for others), finishers swarming was not a problem. But where I am now seems to be a very swarmy place, I have to use every trick in the book to stop my normal hives swarming, and my finishers will swarm also, in fact I have to have a lot of spare finishers in reserve because to stop them swarming, if it's during the swarming season I only use them 2 or 3 cycles and then break them into nucs, or they are virtually guaranteed to swarm. I take the cells out day after capping and put them in an incubator, so I can use a faster cycle with the finishers.

Last few years when I've been more involved talking to hobbyists, I have been wrestling with trying to think up a system for raising grafted cells that is both simple and can be done by someone with just a few hives. Here is one possibility. - Select a strong 2 brood box hive and put a queen excluder between the two boxes. 5 days later have a look, eggs will only be in the box that has the queen in it. Take that box a few yards away and put it on a new base and give it a lid. The queenless box is on the original stand and will receive the returning old bees. Yes it's true those old bees won't directly raise the cells, but just having lots of bees in the queenless (starter) hive will make them more likely to raise more of your grafts, and do it better.

Give the queenless box a couple hours to realise they are queenless then do your graft and put it in. If raising 16 or less cells, don't recombine the boxes till after the cells are capped. If raising more than 16 cells, recombine the boxes after one or two days. Combining is done by bringing the box with the queen back and putting that on the bottom. Then a queen excluder and the queenless box with the cells on top. No newspaper is need the bees will remember each other and unite peacefully.

5 to 7 days after doing the graft, look at any brood combs in the box that has the grafted cells in it, and kill any rogue queen cells the bees may have built on the brood combs.

The bees need good nutrition, if there is no flow, feed them for a week or so before doing the graft.


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## David LaFerney

Good advice - almost the same thing as a Cloake board, but without the board.


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## DanielD

Thanks again OT. Very good info in this thread.


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## Oldtimer

David LaFerney said:


> Good advice - almost the same thing as a Cloake board, but without the board.


Yes it's pretty much the same. Just for me, I always have some spare lids & bottom boards, but don't have any Cloak boards. If someone got 2 or 3 hives and want to make some cells, building a Cloak board may be cheaper than extra lids and bottoms.


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## WRLCPA

Oldtimer said:


> Not never. But generally they will accept from a small portion, to none. The exception is right on swarming time, when a queenright finisher will accept new grafts with such eagerness and make such a good job of them that I don't even bother with a starter hive at that time.
> 
> This is location dependent. In some places I worked (for others), finishers swarming was not a problem. But where I am now seems to be a very swarmy place, I have to use every trick in the book to stop my normal hives swarming, and my finishers will swarm also, in fact I have to have a lot of spare finishers in reserve because to stop them swarming, if it's during the swarming season I only use them 2 or 3 cycles and then break them into nucs, or they are virtually guaranteed to swarm. I take the cells out day after capping and put them in an incubator, so I can use a faster cycle with the finishers.
> 
> Last few years when I've been more involved talking to hobbyists, I have been wrestling with trying to think up a system for raising grafted cells that is both simple and can be done by someone with just a few hives. Here is one possibility. - Select a strong 2 brood box hive and put a queen excluder between the two boxes. 5 days later have a look, eggs will only be in the box that has the queen in it. Take that box a few yards away and put it on a new base and give it a lid. The queenless box is on the original stand and will receive the returning old bees. Yes it's true those old bees won't directly raise the cells, but just having lots of bees in the queenless (starter) hive will make them more likely to raise more of your grafts, and do it better.
> 
> Give the queenless box a couple hours to realise they are queenless then do your graft and put it in. If raising 16 or less cells, don't recombine the boxes till after the cells are capped. If raising more than 16 cells, recombine the boxes after one or two days. Combining is done by bringing the box with the queen back and putting that on the bottom. Then a queen excluder and the queenless box with the cells on top. No newspaper is need the bees will remember each other and unite peacefully.
> 
> 5 to 7 days after doing the graft, look at any brood combs in the box that has the grafted cells in it, and kill any rogue queen cells the bees may have built on the brood combs.
> 
> The bees need good nutrition, if there is no flow, feed them for a week or so before doing the graft.


Old Timer. What is the significance of 16 in determining the timing of recombining the boxes? I would think recombining the boxes sooner would only serve to add numbers to the hive.

This is an awesome alternative to starter/finisher, especially when someone like me only has three hives, 1 weak that I am going to reduce to a Michael Palmer nuc setup for overwintering. I only need 5 queens this go so I will only be grafting a small amount.


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## Oldtimer

The number 16 is the maximum number for me anyway, that queenless bees if it's a strong starter, will do a good job of them all right through to capping.

It's also seasonal dependent, very early in the season they will do less, and at swarming time they will do more perhaps quite a few more, even if queenless.

And as per Sasha's post perhaps other factors play a part such as location and breed of bee.


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## WRLCPA

Oldtimer said:


> The number 16 is the maximum number for me anyway, that queenless bees if it's a strong starter, will do a good job of them all right through to capping.
> 
> It's also seasonal dependent, very early in the season they will do less, and at swarming time they will do more perhaps quite a few more, even if queenless.
> 
> And as per Sasha's post perhaps other factors play a part such as location and breed of bee.


Thanks you for your reply, but the more important part of the question for me was if less than 16, why not move to the finisher earlier?


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## Oldtimer

They can be moved to the finisher earlier, no worries. Sometimes though with a small number of cells the queenless starter will actually do a better job of them than a queenright finishing hive.


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## squarepeg

Oldtimer said:


> The number 16 is the maximum number for me anyway, that queenless bees if it's a strong starter, will do a good job of them all right through to capping.


interesting. i had 18 'takes' out of 20 grafts, but only 16 that ended up getting capped. we are getting toward the end of our spring nectar flow and swarming here has pretty much finished up as far as i can tell.


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## David LaFerney

One take away from this thread is that if you want a cell builder to produce a large number of well built cells it will work best if the hive is swarmy - either naturally or because of manipulation. All you are really doing is substituting larva of your choice for theirs. 

So if you are a beginner a naturally swarmy hive is an opportunity to make it easier to do. And better to use it to rear queens than to let it hit the trees.

You know this should be obvious, but it really isn't. It's not just that you are using the "swarm impulse" - you want the cell builder to actually be ready to swarm. The things you avoid to manage swarming - overcrowding, over feeding - are exactly what you do to prep a cell builder. Try to make it swarmy.

Right?


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## kilocharlie

All except the exact timing, right David? 

It seems the finisher is primed with 8 to 10 frames of imported capped brood (no queen cells!) 10 days before grafting, the queenless starter is only there for the timing of the cells. Then giving the cells to the finisher to let them make swarm cells gets them finished long and fat, but steal them for your apiary and into the incubator or plant in the nucs as you need before they take off on a swarm.

Oldtimer - do you ever clip a queen's wing to keep her from swarming?


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## Oldtimer

Have tried it but it is not a simple fix for swarming. I've seen hives trying to swarm with a queen that cannot fly. The bees chase her aggressively to try to get her to fly, they really get stuck into her. A swarm may go and hang in a nearby tree but after maybe 20 minutes they realise they are queenless and return to the hive. But they try again the next day, and after 2 or 3 attempts it is too hard on the queen and she expires, or is badgered to death.

Sometimes swarms with queens that cannot fly end up hanging under the bottom board, or in a heap on the ground very close to the hive.


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## Brad Bee

This thread has been very informational and I thank each of you that added a comment, question, or answer. Grafting for the first time has been eye opening and by taking the grafting plunge and starting this thread, I've learned more about what bees do, why bees do it and what their needs are than I have in the past year.

David you hit the nail on the head, we are making a colony ready to swarm, then we put the larvae in the cups to give them the queens to swarm with. They won't swarm without a queen in the hive, so even though they are crowded beyond capacity the swarm cell building impulse isn't triggered until they are put above an excluder on the queen right hive. Without the influence of the queen below the excluder they are stuck in emergency queen mode. Either of those modes make good queens but only one of them makes a lot of good queens, and you're right, it should be obvious but it isn't or wasn't to me.


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## Huntingstoneboy

Brad Bee said:


> This thread has been very informational and I thank each of you that added a comment, question, or answer. Grafting for the first time has been eye opening and by taking the grafting plunge and starting this thread, I've learned more about what bees do, why bees do it and what their needs are than I have in the past year.
> 
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> Great thread! Finally got 8 graft cells to take....3rd try, but having fun!


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## WRLCPA

I'm curious. I will be attempting to graft tomorrow and put 11 cells into a cloak board setup. I think I have enough bees, but I might be underestimating just exactly how many bees are required. I'm guessing I have roughly 10 frames covered with bees between the two deeps. Hopefully most of them will find their way to the top deep before I divide the two this evening.

What will happen if there are not enough bee's? Will they produce less cells? Will they ignore them? Not make quality cells? I guess I will know on Friday, but just looking for thoughts.

I chose this method because it is less disruptive on the finisher hive, I don't have a ton of resources, and if I screw it all up it is reversible. Also, the main flow is about to start in the coming two weeks so in theory, if it starts today, the hive would still be able to produce.


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## Oldtimer

One box full is not enough bees to use as a normal 2 box cell raising set up.

My recommendation would be try to work it in some way where nearly all the bees end up in the queenless starter part, with just a minimal amount in the other part to care for the queen. Leave the queen cells in the queenless part till they are capped, after that recombine the two boxes with an excluder between, with a comb of brood each side of the queen cells to ensure they are kept at the right temperature.


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## GusK

Oldtimer said:


> One box full is not enough bees to use as a normal 2 box cell raising set up.
> 
> My recommendation would be try to work it in some way where nearly all the bees end up in the queenless starter part, with just a minimal amount in the other part to care for the queen. Leave the queen cells in the queenless part till they are capped, after that recombine the two boxes with an excluder between, with a comb of brood each side of the queen cells to ensure they are kept at the right temperature.


I'm still new to this. I recently did just that, except I combined the deeps with an excluder after 24 hours. I had 24 grafts, about 18 took at the time of combination. The bottom queenright half was about 5 frames of bees. The top cell starter was about 9 frames of bees - I don't use ten frames in my deeps.

A day or two later, the bees tore down most of my grafts and left just four, though those four look really good, lots of RJ. I ruined about 6 emergency grafts I found on a couple frames that still had a small amount of open brood.

So Oldtimer, had I waited until the cells were capped, I probably would have had a lot more finished cells?


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## WRLCPA

Oldtimer said:


> One box full is not enough bees to use as a normal 2 box cell raising set up.
> 
> My recommendation would be try to work it in some way where nearly all the bees end up in the queenless starter part, with just a minimal amount in the other part to care for the queen. Leave the queen cells in the queenless part till they are capped, after that recombine the two boxes with an excluder between, with a comb of brood each side of the queen cells to ensure they are kept at the right temperature.


Thank you. I thought that was the point of a cloak board???? Tonight I am supposed to divide the two boxes with he queen below and allow the bees to exit the bottom entrance at which time they will return to the front side of the box.

My other option is to postpone until after our flow is over here. I would have plenty of bees to do it properly


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## Oldtimer

GusK said:


> had I waited until the cells were capped, I probably would have had a lot more finished cells?


impossible to know without seeing the hive but by your description it sounds likely. If the bee density was reduced around the cells after the re-combine then yes, that might be why they didn't finish them all, but there's lots of other things might have caused it also.

WRLCPA it would be a pity to postpone the graft now you are all primed for it you should go ahead, only if the results are not what you want then try again later.


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## mbc

GusK said:


> ......I ruined about 6 emergency grafts I found on a couple frames that still had a small amount of open brood.


You'd have more joy if you separated the brood to be used in the queenless portion from the queen for nine days before grafting, that way your chosen larvae will have no competition.


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## WRLCPA

Oldtimer said:


> impossible to know without seeing the hive but by your description it sounds likely. If the bee density was reduced around the cells after the re-combine then yes, that might be why they didn't finish them all, but there's lots of other things might have caused it also.
> 
> WRLCPA it would be a pity to postpone the graft now you are all primed for it you should go ahead, only if the results are not what you want then try again later.


I did something wrong. I went to check on the progress. I opened the bottom box and put the divider on. I peaked in the top and didn't see many bee's. They were all in the bottom box with the queen and open frames of larva. There are a ton of bee's and thats a good thing. So I called off the procedure. I think by putting most of the open larva in the bottom box leaving just one of open larva in the top box was the mistake. If I were to do it again, I would reverse putting the open larva in the top box and remove all them when I put the graft frame in.

Maybe after the flow I will set it up again


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## johno

I had a great deal of success this season by grafting into my hives that were starting their swarm preps. when I found any swarm cup with eggs the Queen came out with 2 frames of brood and into a nuc. I then destroyed all queen cups and any cells started. The next day provided the hives with a top bar with 13 grafts, on others I tried a frame with 22 grafts with this method I did 5 hives. I was shocked when I had 100% acceptance on 4 of them and 80% on one. They all turned out to be good queen cells. The hives that I grafted from were each given 1 cell and were checked later to make sure that the queen had emerged. No swarming has taken place and those hives have about 3 supers of honey.
Johno


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## GusK

Thanks Oldtimer and mbc - more than likely that was it - bee density. However the few cells left look like my best to date. Will give it another go tomorrow. I should have better results as the hive has grown more populous.


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## asd

Nice thread.
Using separate starter and finisher is the best option in my opinion. It is the most efficient, simple, correct and straight forward possible method. I gave a lot of thinking and trials lately on the subject and came up to this. An essential factor though is to have marked queens.


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## David LaFerney

Making absolute statements about beekeeping based on what you have read is often not the most productive way to contribute to a conversation. 

Just saying.


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## lharder

I'm playing around with raising a few queens. I have 5 big hives and about 6 nucs made from my fumbling efforts. I really only want about a half dozen queens at a time. A 10 frame starter box took too many resources from my hives in my opinion, and I noticed that when I put them in a queen right situation, the bee density dropped hugely. So I am trying a 5 frame starter/finisher. I collect the bees, 7 frames of brood (some open) 4 or 5 days before and place above and excluder in a regular box. Once I'm ready to put it together and put in a 3 frames of brood, frame of stores, then shake in the remaining nurse bees and put on top of a strong nucleus colony (3 5 frame boxes tall) with its top entrance reversed. I collect most of the foragers from the nuc this way. I've tried grafting for the first time, grafting 12 hoping for 6. It results in a very crowded little starter without too many resources. Is there an advantage to making this a queen right situation?


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