# imiclopedia cause CCD



## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

Go to Lanesbees.com to get the facts


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

When imiclopedia is used as a seed dressing, it stays in the soil the next year to the extent that a untreated crop planted the next year will still have an LD50 the same as previous years treated crop. If the second year crop is also treated, now the plant has a double dose of pesticide. Is the third year a triple dose? It may be used as a seed dressing one year on grain to kill aphids. The next year the field is planted in clover which is not treated. The clover will have the pesticide in its nectar from the residual pesticide in the soil. The EPA is so comfortable with these pesticides that they are used by lable as a preventative befor the pest even appears. This is a sever departure from past practices. I have heard if Gaucho is used at three times the labeled dosage will kill citrus scale. Would a grower use it at triple dose to cure a problem? Probably. At that dose will it kill or disorient bees? yes Why didn't the problem occure when these pesticides were first introduced? Over use everywhere. Accumulative effect. Farmers are getting comfortable with this SAFE pesticide.


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## simplyhoney (Sep 14, 2004)

*don't jive*

Much has been discussed on beesource about systemic insecticides, which is what I believe your are talking about. The problem is, my self, along with many other beekeepers have yards far from any ag. with IDENTICAL symtoms of "ccd". I am more inclined to thing that it is something contagious. This common link has been broken several times. Look in the archives of disease and pests. Sorry.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> When imiclopedia is used as a seed dressing, it stays in the soil. . . . -jjgbee


Not entirely correct. When imidacloprid is used as a seed dressing, it becomes systemic in the plant (in other words, the plant takes up the insecticide). Imidacloprid is not "self perpetuating." Any imidacloprid taken up by plants removes that imidacloprid from the soil. If you start with 0.25 mg per seed, and the plant takes up 0.20 mg, only 0.05 mg is left in the soil.

And, imidacloprid breaks down over time. Not long, long time, like DDT, but not immediately, either. So, the year following an application of imidacloprid as a seed dressing, the amount remaining in the soil is very, very small.



> . . .it stays in the soil the next year to the extent that a untreated crop planted the next year. . . . -jjgbee


I suspect this idea comes from some research conducted on imidacloprid as a seed dressing for winter wheat. Winter wheat is planted in the fall, it overwinters, and grows to harvest the following year. Aphids pose a significant threat at times to wheat. Research on imidacloprid treatments of wheat found that seed treatments when the winter wheat is planted in the fall become systemic in the plants, and enough imidacloprid is still systemic in the wheat plants the following year to kill Russian wheat aphids. (Not other aphids, just Russian wheat aphids. Some species of aphids are more susceptible than others to certain chemicals.)



> . . .will still have an LD50 the same as previous years treated crop. . . .


Of course. The "LD50" is the amount of active ingredient at will be lethal to 50% of a population, usually measured using rats. That value doesn't change. If 450 mg/kg of imidacloprid kills 50% of the rats exposed to it this year, 450 mg/kg of imidacloprid will kill 50% of the rats exposed to it next year, and the year after that, and so on. The LD50 does not change.

What changes is the amount of active ingredient that remains in the environment.

In this specific example, you're either implying that plants do not take up any imidacloprid since it remains in the soil for the next year (in other words, it is not a systemic insecticide, so would not be found in plant parts), or imidacloprid replicates itself (it would then be "living," and, once release, could keep in multiplying).



> I have heard if Gaucho is used at three times the labeled dosage will kill citrus scale. -jjgbee


Probably true. Citrus scale is an insect; Gaucho is an insecticide. Given a high enough dose, it should kill citrus scale.



> Would a grower use it at triple dose to cure a problem? -jjgbee


If that grower would be caught, he would face some stiff penalties for using a product "off-label."

Of course, that grower might not get caught, and might view the benefits worth the risk of the penalties.

Hopefully, if we as beekeepers are concerned about labels on pesticides, we stick to them when treating for mites. Follow the label specifically for each chemical treatment used, and no use of chemicals (such as oxalic acid) that are not labelled for use in bee hives.



> Farmers are getting comfortable with this SAFE pesticide. -jjgbee


Actually, use of imidacloprid has been declining over the last few years. Other chemicals seem to be replacing imidacloprid, and the extra expense of neonicotinoids seems to drive many farmers away from them (imidacloprid is more expensive than many other options, such as organophosphates and carbamates).

Of course, use among homeowners may not be changing in the same ways as agricultural uses, and use of imidacloprid among pet owners is probably about the same as it has been for several years. Imidacloprid is the active ingredient in K9 Advantix, and some other tick and flea topical treatments used for pets.



> This common link has been broken several times. -simplyhoney


Seems that way to me, too.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

Imidacloprid is used as a systemic on roses, on willows for bores, there is even pesticide to put on your lawn so you won't have bugs in your grass. This stuff is everywhere. In your neighborhood. are there any blooming trees on lawns? As for the residual in the soil, this is what was indicated in the French data. Did I miss a thread that discussed The French banning these products and Bayer rebuilding the French bee industry after it was destroyed. As for these products not being used as much, I beg to differ. Most of the old orgonophosphates are ineffective because of pest resistance just like Varroa. I am associated with farm managers from several mega size corps. and imidacloprids are about all they presently use. They grow corn, field and sweet, potatoes, onions, carrots ,cotton, safflower, sunflowers and more. The adds for Admire says, will not harm benificials. Last months added the words, benificials and honeybees.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Like many theories that have merit and should be researched, not enough evidence at this point will support systemic chemicals as the sole culprit. It also don’t explain the apparent contagious nature when equipment is re-used after a hive crashes form CCD, that shows improvement when irradiated or fumigated with ascit acid and prevents transfer of CCD to new colonies compared to untreated colonies. This test would indicate a fungus or viral agent, or a combination of both.
I wish it were as simple as a chemical contamination the solution would probably prove to be easier than when the unknown is known.


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

Out of 30 hives going into winter I had 4 coming out. Now I have taken a look at them and from 4, 2 are doing ok (????). The other two are losing bees. The 'dead outs' have plenty of honey and brood but no bees coming out of winter!!!??? I live in the woods and the farmers out here just grow hay for feeding their cows. Not much if any chemical usage. I have lost - exhausted any ideas of what is happening. The bees went into winter wit over 150 lbs of honey. I do not harvest anything from them just do research. Man I'm at a total loss of what is happening. My opinion is that we have a viral/fungal problem that has taken off into our hives.
I have been keeping bees for over 30 years and this is the first time I have been struggling to 'save' them.
Dan


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Just to echo what was said above, the problem may be with the application technique as well as the compounds. Just because something will not harm beneficials when used as it is labelled, doesn't mean that that everyone will use it as labelled or that it will not harm beneficials at some point in time. Farming is not a perfect science. My experience is that desparate farmers can be rather creative when they are squuezed economically.


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