# OA Vaporization during summer



## cdanderson (May 26, 2007)

I understand vaporizing OA will only kill the phoretic mites and is most beneficial during a time of no or little brood.
It can be used in cooler weather than some of the other treatments. 

My question is : what about hot weather ? One of the problems we have in upstate SC is the need to treat for mites right after the honey supers come off. Mid July or so. It is often very hot and the thymol treatments or formic acid seem either be ineffective or too hard on the colonies. It is very hard during that time of year to get a treatment window for those .

Is there any documented harm done to the bees when used in the summer ? maybe several times to cover the brood cycle
Other than initial cost and more use precautions - is there a down side to this treatment compared to others ? i.e. queen loss, loss of brood etc.

Thank You


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

There is only one temperature requirement for OAV and that is temps must be above 37. There is no upper limit. Right after the supers come off is a very good time to treat for mites as the mites are out-breeding the bees at that time. (I live in SC also and treat right after the supers are removed and sometimes in late August as well depending on what I'm seeing.) You will need to do 3-4 treatments 5 days apart to "euthanize" the mites as they emerge from the brood. Then another treatment right around Thanksgiving (when the hive is close to brood-less) to kill 95% or better of the remaining phoretic mites. 

No downside to OAV except the number of treatments you need to do after removing the supers. OAV does not harm, bees, brood or the queen.


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## cdanderson (May 26, 2007)

Thank you

Do you recommend a respirator ? Can I buy one a lowes or does it require a more expensive one ?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

A respirator marked N95 will suffice.......... I've seen them at the big box stores........... Keep a smoker lit and stand up-wind while vaporizing.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Is the N95 cartridge sufficient, or do you need one specifically for acid gases? We are calling it OA _vaporization_, but I think it is technically a sublimation process. My reading of the materials that came with my 3M respirator was that the latter type was needed. 

I bought my mask at Lowes, but found the correct cartridges at Home Depot. Neither had a small size mask in stock, so I'm making do with a medium, but will probably spring for the extra one this summer. (I believe you can order one through them.) OA vapors, fumes, gas, smoke, or whatever it is, is truly foul to breathe.

Hopefully when OAV is approved that will come with specific user-safety instructions, and a well-researched prescription for using it when there is brood in the nest.

Meanwhile, it seems to be working very well for me. My hives have never been this free of mites in the nearly two years that they have been with me. I could kick myself for not being brave enough to try it earlier!

Enj.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Everything I've read, states the N95 is sufficient. If you do a search, it will lead you almost ........everywhere. However, all the searches lead back to the N95 as sufficient..............


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

enjambres said:


> Is the N95 cartridge sufficient, or do you need one specifically for acid gases? We are calling it OA _vaporization_, but I think it is technically a sublimation process. My reading of the materials that came with my 3M respirator was that the latter type was needed.
> 
> I bought my mask at Lowes, but found the correct cartridges at Home Depot. Neither had a small size mask in stock, so I'm making do with a medium, but will probably spring for the extra one this summer. (I believe you can order one through them.) OA vapors, fumes, gas, smoke, or whatever it is, is truly foul to breathe.
> 
> Enj.


Can you provide the make and model number of the cartridge?


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## John Scifres (Mar 25, 2014)

Oxalic acid sublimates to form formic acid vapors. According to the Safety Data Sheet I just read on Sigma-Aldrich's website, a negative pressure, tight-fitting (preferably full-face) respirator with multipurpose cartridge is recommended. Multipurpose includes acid gases and vapors and a P100 filter. N95 would not meet this recommendation. N95 is for particulates only. The N means it's not resistant to oils and the 95 means it;'s going to filter out 95% of the small particles in the air you pull through it.

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sial/f0507?lang=en&region=US

Home Depot sells a respirator that meets this recommendation: http://www.homedepot.com/p/MSA-Safety-Works-Full-Face-Multi-Purpose-Respirator-10041139/100422477


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

John, You're assuming the individual vaporizing will be exposed to formic acid. I'm pretty sure the oxalic acid does not turn into formic acid and go airborne and treat the bees. There may be some formic in the vaporizor, but what goes airborne is oxalic acid. N95 is fine for oxalic acid. I know from using both OAV and MAQS they don't smell anything the same.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Actually according to the newly released health and human safety evaluation documents in support of the registration of oxalic acid, *both *acid gas and particulate (N95) breathing protection is recommended. So a simple N95 would not be the correct, or the safe, choice for _vaporization_, although it would seem to me that an N95 might be safe for the dribbling of OA in syrup.



Enj.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

snl said:


> A respirator marked N95 will suffice.......... I've seen them at the big box stores........... Keep a smoker lit and stand up-wind while vaporizing.


Great advice SNL... I don't use a mask anymore, but I NEVER go without a lit smoker...


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

This is from Randy's website:
However, oxalic vaporization is fairly widely used throughout the world, so I thought that maybe I was being too cautious. Manufacturers of vaporizers claim, of course, that vaporizers are safe to operate. German researchers, Gumpp, et al. (2003), state that “By appropriate use there is no risk to the health of the apiarist.” Their feeling was that the OA vapor quickly recondenses into an aerosol of tiny crystals, which are less dangerous than a vapor. They suggest wearing safety goggles, acid proof gloves, and a disposable cloth dust/mist mask equivalent to NIOSH N95 (“N95” will be stamped on the front—they cost anywhere from $12-$36 from Conney.com).


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Robbin said:


> Great advice SNL... I don't use a mask anymore, but I NEVER go without a lit smoker...


I use a paper mask like that used for cutting grass. I'm not dumb enough to stand upwind, but the wind could shift.


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## cdanderson (May 26, 2007)

Thank you all. Ideally, I would like to do nothing and let the bees enjoy themselves. Unfortunately, varroa will not allow that so I need to pick the lesser of evils. Gonna try OA this summer, I need to treat in mid July when the Sourwood supers come off. Its usually hot as heck and really too hot to use MAQS or thymol.


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## capathome (Sep 20, 2011)

There are some nuggets of information that need to be pulled out of the earlier post and emphasized. 

My background is in HAZMAT and I have had many respirator training sessions.

As more and more beeks begin to use OAV on a regular basis I expect we'll hear lots of horror stories here on Beesource about HUMAN exposure to OAV. We reasonably know that the bees can take a dose with little harm, buy YOU cannot.

So let us all commit to protecting OUR health as we protect our bees health.

Now to the wisdom from earlier posts.

Keep your smoker lit. Yes you should always have your smoker lit when working the bees, but that's not why it's important here. It's a wind indicator, so you know which way us upwind. Rule number 1 in hazmat is "stay out out of the nasty".

Respirators and FIT. N95, acid gas cartridge, doesn't matter if the seal on your face doesn't fit. Air will just leak around the seal. Most respirators are available in different sizes to fit most people. Do you have a beard? Your respirator will not seal over that. I do have facial hair, so I use a powered air purifying resp. Pricey, YES, but to me, worth every dime. Fit your respirator.

Also never forget that PPE is your second line of protection. It is only there when you forget #1 - Stay out of the nasty.

capathome

Forgot to say, I use OAV and have had good results, and expect to continue using it.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

capathome said:


> As more and more beeks begin to use OAV on a regular basis I expect we'll hear lots of horror stories here on Beesource about HUMAN exposure to OAV. Forgot to say, I use OAV and have had good results, and expect to continue using it.


I don't believe that is true at all. OAV is used in most of the rest of the world and for some time! You just don't hear horror stories (and believe me, I've looked). OA readily recrystallizes in the hive thus limiting the exposure to the vapors. That's not to say you don't need protection, you do.

See this link: http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imker...O2Yuq2Z6gpJCDeHt,gWym162epYbg2c_JjKbNoKSn6A--


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## Waggle (Mar 7, 2013)

For people who have respiratory problems of any type such as asthma, bronchitis, ect. OA vapors, even in small amounts, if inhaled, can cause severe reactions. DON'T downplay just how bad these reactions can be. I use OAV on my hives. It is effective and although the vaporiser has scorched the bottoms of my wood 
frames, and melted my plastic frames, I continue to use it because it is so effective. But when OAV becomes approved and more beeks are using it there will be problems if people are cavalier when using it. Please use the proper filter cartridges and a well fitting mask. Oav VAPORS AND CRYSTALS if inhaled can and will cause lung damage and you could end up making a visit to the emergency room.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Waggle said:


> I use OAV on my hives. It is effective and although the vaporiser has scorched the bottoms of my wood
> frames, and melted my plastic frames, I continue to use it because it is so effective.


Make sure that you place the vaporizer so that it lies flat on bottom of the hive (no tilting when it's place in). Yes, it can scorch the bottoms at times. Again, ref the frames, make sure your vaporizer lies flat. It it tilts so that it touches the bottom of the plastic frames, it will melt them.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I would like to add a comment. If someone gets one good whiff of OA vapor they will immediately consider protection with a good respirator, or at the very least alter their procedure when vaporizing their hives. Only a complete idiot would continue to inhale OA Vapor to the extent that it would harm their health. JMHO .... from someone who got "one" whiff. 

I realize there are certain circumstances where minor exposure could cause harm to a person with some type of pre-existing condition, but I think those cases would be very rare.

With that said, I advise anyone who vaporizes their hive to invest in a good respirator that filters out acid vapor, and use it.


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## cdanderson (May 26, 2007)

Always better to be safe than sorry. I agree that some people will have problems mostly due to their carelessness - some people are stupid. I plan to use the smoker to stay out of the fumes as much as possible and buy some type of protection also. I will be careful that it fits around my beard. :0. 
Thanks, Charlotte


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

cdanderson said:


> I will be careful that it fits around my beard. :0.
> Thanks, Charlotte


Just how old are you Charlotte ; Seriously though when vaporizing OA I use the smoker for more than a wind gauge, a few good puffs directly into the entrance makes vaporizing go much smoother :thumbsup:.


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## foxC (Feb 4, 2015)

snl said:


> >snip< OA readily recrystallizes in the hive thus limiting the exposure to the vapors. >snip<


Does it recrystallize into the wax, nectar, pollen or caps or do these crystals evaporate? I am deciding if this is the way I should treat for varroa. Seems to be really popular on these pages so I am pretty certain it must be safe to use if supers are removed first.

I recently took an 8 hour class and when I asked the instructor if OAV was a good method he said he does not use it for liability reasons since he sells the honey/ wax.


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## Waggle (Mar 7, 2013)

snl said:


> Make sure that you place the vaporizer so that it lies flat on bottom of the hive (no tilting when it's place in). Yes, it can scorch the bottoms at times. Again, ref the frames, make sure your vaporizer lies flat. It it tilts so that it touches the bottom of the plastic frames, it will melt them.


I always clamp the vaporiser shaft to the bottom board to make sure that it is held flat. It still melts the plastic frames in the 2 1/2min burn time.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

foxC said:


> I recently took an 8 hour class and when I asked the instructor if OAV was a good method he said he does not use it for liability reasons since he sells the honey/ wax.


Since you do not use OAV with the supers on, there is no chance for the OA to get into the honey or wax cappings. Also, very soon after OAV, the level of OA in the hive(s) returns to pre-treated levels. With the EPA about to approve OA for the treatment of mites, that you also tell you something!


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Waggle said:


> I always clamp the vaporiser shaft to the bottom board to make sure that it is held flat. It still melts the plastic frames in the 2 1/2min burn time.


What is the height of your bottom board? I have a 3/4" rise on my bottom boards and never have that problem.............


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Waggle said:


> I always clamp the vaporiser shaft to the bottom board to make sure that it is held flat. It still melts the plastic frames in the 2 1/2min burn time.


Try vaporizing from the top. Make a box about 2" high the size of the brood chamber. Cut a small opening in the bottom of the box. (enough that the shaft of the vaporizer will fit). Place on old pie al pie plate on top of the frames, load the vaporizer, slide it under the cut opening, placing it in on the pie plate and put the top cover on. Seal the bottom of the hive, hook up the vaporizer and vaporize............ I've done it just to try and it works just fine.......


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## cdanderson (May 26, 2007)

WWW said:


> Just how old are you Charlotte ; Seriously though when vaporizing OA I use the smoker for more than a wind gauge, a few good puffs directly into the entrance makes vaporizing go much smoother :thumbsup:.


I'm 55 years young..no beard yet !


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

cdanderson said:


> I'm 55 years young..no beard yet !



Hahaha and your a good sport to boot, I bet your as sweet as a banana cream pie :gh:.


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## Waggle (Mar 7, 2013)

snl said:


> What is the height of your bottom board? I have a 3/4" rise on my bottom boards and never have that problem.............


All of my hives have the standard 3/4" rise. Is it possible that my vaporiser is running too hot?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I do my OAVing with only a lit smoker to track wind direction. It works very well.


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## cdanderson (May 26, 2007)

Well I have the vaporizer and the OA. If it ever stops this ice and snow, I think I'll do a test run and see how long it takes the OA to vaporize. Assuming that is ok as long as I stay far away and don't inhale the stuff. One of my little spoons was broke - I run one deep and one shallow. So a little over 1/4 teaspoon ?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

cdanderson said:


> One of my little spoons was broke - I run one deep and one shallow. So a little over 1/4 teaspoon ?


If you just follow the general rule of one gram per brood chamber (no matter the size) you'll be fine and not have to worry about 1/4 teaspoonfuls. Just get a 1/2 teaspoon measuring spoon (which is almost exactly 2 grams) and use that. You most likely have several in the "junk" drawer


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