# verroa control naturally



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Mites are very tough and very prolific. I have my doubts. If you want to try it, make sure you keep monitoring the mite level.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are quite a few natural methods or soft methods that are being used sucessfully against varroa by those on this board. Look under Cell Calls, FGMO, and Diseases to find recent discussions. The alternative controls being used most, that I'm aware of are, in no particular order:

Food Grade Mineral Oil (FGMO)
Small cell
Thymol
Oxalic Acid
Screened Bottom Boards
Powdered sugar
generic Vicks vapo rub (Daisy's solution to the world's problems







)


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

You forgot one "natural" item from the list. How about spending a few extra bucks and getting a queen from a reputable queen breeder, who is working with resistant bees. Either you will be very happy or you can say you proved them wrong. (Assuming it was a genetics flaw and not poor beekeeping.) Funny how everyone buys foggers, oil, new foundation,etc, etc, etc, but then they buy the cheapest bees and packages on the market. Some do not even know what kind of bees they ordered.


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

carnica bee, you're not related to Daisy by any chance, are you??? ...if not, you guys should talk - sounds like one of her schemes! 
-- 
Touche, BjornBee!


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## carnica bee (Jan 11, 2004)

No, I'm not related to Daisy, just someone new to this post asking for imformation. Thanks to everyone .......


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## Daisy (Jul 24, 2003)

He Haw, Tex.....

Schemes maybe but all my bees are still alive and buzzin.... 

"Knock on wood" (hive). He he...

Hey, Wonder where that expression (superstition) hails from?


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## carnica bee (Jan 11, 2004)

Daisy, what is your secret?


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## Hook (Jun 2, 2002)

You forgot one "natural" item from the list. How about spending a few extra bucks and getting a queen from a reputable queen breeder, who is working with resistant bees. Either you will be very happy or you can say you proved them wrong. (Assuming it was a genetics flaw and not poor beekeeping.) Funny how everyone buys foggers, oil, new foundation,etc, etc, etc, but then they buy the cheapest bees and packages on the market. Some do not even know what kind of bees they ordered. 

>>>> I agree totally. I think the varroa problem will be solved eventually with resistant bees. If the bees have it in their blood, they will know how to deal with mites, and also know how to survive them. All other natural things are good, but the bees are the most important. Finding a good supplier is key, unless you are essentially doing the same thing with your own stock. I do recommend some treatment in the meantime though.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

How about a list of recommended sources . . for varroa resistant queens?

thanx

------------------
Dave W . . .

A NewBEE with 1 hive.
First package installed
April, 2003.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Dave W.
I don't have a "list" as I have not ordered from more than one or two.

B. Weaver advertises "no chems" for several years.
Strachans - Selective hygenic and resistant selection
Olympic wilderness - "mite resistant"

Pick up any Bee Culture, ABJ, etc, and there are more to choose from. Many will advertise "hygenic selection or mite survivors" and some will advertise "no chems", etc. I also realize some may have less than advertised. Some also hate to claim 100% resistance, when these are under ideal, controlled, professionally run operations, and then they sell to hobbiest or others who loose bees to whatever reason, then claim how crappy the bees were and the breeder was at fault.

I personally have spoken to Wootens in Ca. and they claim a strain or line of 95% resistant. I liked that honesty, as not every bee raised will be resistant, and in any breeding, some off-spring will be better and some will be less. I have also spoken and recieved info from Champlian Valley bees in Vt(No chems), and ordered "Russian" survivors from Arnold Apiaries in Tennessee.

Special features on the Webb's in Georgia, who have russian survivors stock and no chemicals, show that others are selecting and being successful with resistant bees, without all "band-aid treatments", that help bees along, but do little in the long run. 

I wish there was a forum to discuss and talk about survivor/resistant/no chem approach on this site, without having to mix it up with those wishing to do the other things.

[This message has been edited by BjornBee (edited January 18, 2004).]


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

My basic feelings about the availability of resistant stock at the present time, is: "buyer beware". While some queen breeders (like Glenn Apiaries of California) have direct access to programs like the Russian bees from the USDA, not all queen breeders advertising supposedly "resistant stock" have such direct lines of offspring. And by the time you order fourth and fifth generation removed queens, I think their mite resistance is pretty "watered down". By that time, it's pretty much 'luck of the draw' as to the true amount of mite resistance any given queen has. But as Bjorn has pointed out, if you're willing to pay the $50 per queen for queens more directly descendant from such programs as the SMR or Russian project, the higher the likelihood of becoming chemical free. 

I have ordered Russians from Jester Bees in Arkansas (who get their "breeder" queens from Glenn Apiaries). They, in turn, are open mated and so the resistance begins to get diluted; but the price has also dropped to $10 or $12 per queen. {NOT an endorsement of either operation} The real secret is to get away from AI (time consuming, labor intensive and $$costly$$) to where mating areas have plenty of Russian drones (using Russians, as an example). Once Russian drones are widespread within a queen breeder's mating areas, then the cost of the queens will come down and the genetic dilution (for non-mite resistance) will be minimized. Just now, are we starting to get to that point among most commercial queen breeders - this was always envisioned as a four or five year process by the USDA. This was as the USDA planned - they could have made the introduction of mite resistant genetics more widespread and much more quickly. But they were also walking a fine line so as not to destroy (financially) many commercial queen breeders. Thus the reasoning and control for the initial $500 queen releases to a very small group of selected queen breeders. [Too bad, the USDA just didn't get into the queen breeding effort wholesale and make the queens available to anyone and everyone who wanted one - drone populations sure would have become more widespread across the country much more quickly]. But again, the reality of economic and political pressures insure that the plan progresses according to what's acceptable to the USDA. To some extent, this also accounts for the wide variability of "good vs. bad" assessments of the Russian bees - no doubt in my mind that some beekeepers have had excellent results from the Russians and some beekeepers would swear never to buy them again! The only people who have experienced "first hand" what the Russians are really like, are the USDA personnel controlling their importation and the few selected queen breeders who paid the $500 price tag - everyone else is getting a mutt (some are lucky to get good mutts and some are not). My point here is, that once the cross breeding starts to happen, you loose control over identifying whether a certain characteristic is intrinsic to the Russian genetics or to the Italian (or whatever was the cross-breeder race) or if it's unique to the hybridized Russian queen only.
--
But just so the government folks don't EVER think they have absolute control over our borders and mother nature (and thus the introduction of such pests as AHBs, Varroa, fire ants, Japanese carp, small hive beetle, well the list goes on and on...), as I understand, some people have found ways to get fresh infusions of potentially mite resistant genetics across our borders, so the hope for "good" also exists. Sooner or later (assuming Darwin was right), mite resistance will become widespread - but until then, "buyer beware".


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## carnica bee (Jan 11, 2004)

I Bought my queen from stracken bees.They say their queens are mite resistant but it doesn't seem to look that way. I'm treating them for verroa as we speak. I have never worked with such gentle bees as these & want to save them. So when someone says buy from a seller of mite resistant bees, bee careful.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

carnica bee,
I'm looking at two different ads for strachans as I write this, nowhere does it mention "mite resistant". They mention selecting for hygenics and mite resistance and other features. I believe there is no 100% mite resistant bees, and they certainly don't claim this. (did you lose bees, or just started treating when you found them with mites?) All bees, no matter what management items you use, will have mites. Unless you stopped them from bringing them into the hive all together. Thats not to say that bees can't handle mites and through selection processes, a better bee, capable of living or controlling mites will eventually win. Starting with queens, raised by breeders taking the time to see advantages of selecting survivor traits, is the future and will be the demise of all other treatments. 

We are not at 100%, but there are more and more beekeepers who are now 1-2-3 years chemical free(without all the other items also), and have minimized there winter varroa kill. They all started, I believe with good stock, many had there own high kill rates, but then through their own splitting and selection process, are now on the verge, or already there, of bees capable of handling the mites. Not all of these bees are russian.


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## Daisy (Jul 24, 2003)

Hi Carnica

I don't have any secrets, really. I feed Honeybee Healthy in the late winter, then here in Kansas, I harvest my honey earlier then most around here so I can get started on treating for mites asap. And allowing them to get their winter supply built up real good so they have plenty stores for overwintering. 

And too, my hives are right outside my door and I keep a very close watch on them for the earliest possible intervention in the case of diseases... or robbing on weaker hives and ect...

I don't treat them with drastic measures by common standards.. Others might not agree with me but I think I treat very moderately but more often. 

I bought mite resistant bees three years ago, lost some and grew the ones that survived, having been the strongest. I let them superceed. And such as that....


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## carnica bee (Jan 11, 2004)

Sounds great Daisy. It's a fact that healthier bees fight off illness better than sick ones. No secret here, just good bee management. By the way B-Jornbee, I didn,t mean to give strachan bees a bad rap. These by far are the best bees I have ever kept & will always buy more queens from them. I stand corrected. Your name seems to have a french twist to it. Am I right?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>By the way B-Jornbee... Your name seems to have a french twist to it. Am I right? 

I always thought it had a Scandanavian twist to it.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I'll forgive any reference to a "French" twist. I laughed and thought it was a "inside" joke, then realized that you haven't been around on this site long enough to know my history.

M.B. is correct. Bjorn is scandanavian and means, among other things, "bear". It is part of my wife's name, she being from Denmark. Two things that my house is full of is, bears and bees. Stuffed items of course.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Mite resistance does not mean there are No Mites. 
The colony may still have mites but they can still survive. They may deal with the mites in many ways, but they survive inspite of them.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

My father was a beekeeper back when there were no problems from mites(mid 70s-82). He also kept beep the old fashion way and in a couple of hives he made by hand as a early teen and most of his beekeeping is based on these early years in the TN foothills. I was 10 when we moved back to TN when he retired from the factory. The fear of mites which were being found in the area and the difficulty of moving the hives south he made a deal with a beekeeper there and never kept a bee since. I purchased 2 packages this past spring. I did get screened BBs and kept check on varroa. Late this fall I was only getting a couple per week. The first one I saw was in July. I did not check for T mites. I have mixed reviews of the bees I purchased. I got buckfast from R Weaver. One of the queens never did lay and they were kind and replaced her. The other queen that came with the packages was laying well within a week. Her hive was and is gentle and easy to work. The replacement queen they send layed well and was a hot hive to work. This hive grew much faster than the gentle bees but by July I could not pick blackberries 20 yards from the hives without getting stung. I used a frame of eggs from the gentle queen and a small split with only capped brood from the hot hive to raise my own queen.
To the points, R Weaver's buckfast came with very few or no mites. They say they are selecting for resistance to varroa but the buckfast is know to be T mite resistant. These were the reason I chose them in the first place. The queen I raised from the gentle hive are more aggressive than the mother's colony but are noway mean. My father has been a good teacher of the basics(he turns 72in March) but I need a mentor for mite control and I have found 2 within driving range now and I have this board. I think natural cell size, resistance, and hygenic behavor are all pieces to the big picture. Yes many have been chem free using small cell. Yes some have even had good results from resistant strains. Hygenic behavor has been proven helpful. I plan on getting 2 types of bees this years by buying queens(2 each). I want russian and NWCarnolians. I am also going do do some small cell to start the regression. I went to college for horticulture and know that the offspring of a resistant plant is not going to be resistant everytime. With the Chestnut most of the offspring are not resistant to the blight. This does not say we need to give up on them it means the opposit. After many generations we will get there. I plan on helping bees and the Chestnuts get there by breeding from the survivors.


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## Curry (Sep 22, 2003)

Hillbilly,

I think you're on the right track towards natural mite control. SBB's are a must- they can destroy around 5-10% of the varroa in a hive per month. Imagine losing 10% of your (new) bees every month... it would be hard for them to build up much. I like using the small-cell Pierco frames, but I really don't know for sure if that helps. I've read that fewer mites emerge from smaller cells, but I don't have any personal experience. I do have experience with russians (I bought them in 2000 and have had them since chem-free). I'm sold on them because they have NO problems with T-mites (unlike the few italian and buckfast I have). And the are tolerant of varroa mites. I think partially it's because they're a little more aggressive towards grooming. It's important that bees completely stop brood production at least for a few weeks to kill off last years mites. If you start the year with a relatively high mite population, look out. This may be one trick the russians have over other races. I do have one russian hive however, that had sriveled-winged bees coming out of it the other day, so I'll be interested to see if they make it next year. I may have made a mistake by feeding the bees throughout winter- they may have continued the brood cycle. I have 3 NWCarniolans which did good last year and appear to be similar to the russians (no T-mites and good varroa control for first year). I just like the fact that russians haven't been tampered with... haven't been bred to be more mild(less varroa resistant).


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

>Two things that my house is full of is, bears and bees. Stuffed items of course.<

You have stuffed bees?

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-- 
Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are several of both stuffed around here including a bear dressed as a bee...


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

Curry: It's interesting to hear you say that you've noticed problems with your Buckfast bees AND T-mites (since that's the mite that Buckfast were originally bred to be resistant to - via Br. Adam using the 'survivor' breeding concept). 
-- 
On a side note about this Varroa mite 'survivor' concept. Wouldn't it have been interesting to see American beekeepers never use chemicals to fight off the initial Varroa mite infestation? Since many commercial beekeepers were already devastated by the massive loss of colonies for the first few years of the Varroa attack, it seems like we could have gotten to Varroa resistant genetics a lot sooner if we hadn't "bought into" the use of Apistan, (etc.).

Granted we can't turn back the clock now and certainly additional loss of colonies would have taken place but in the long run, wouldn't we have been better off?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>On a side note about this Varroa mite 'survivor' concept. Wouldn't it have been interesting to see American beekeepers never use chemicals to fight off the initial Varroa mite infestation? Since many commercial beekeepers were already devastated by the massive loss of colonies for the first few years of the Varroa attack, it seems like we could have gotten to Varroa resistant genetics a lot sooner if we hadn't "bought into" the use of Apistan, (etc.).
>Granted we can't turn back the clock now and certainly additional loss of colonies would have taken place but in the long run, wouldn't we have been better off?

My guess is you are right. The big losses had already happened.


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## AbNZ (Nov 27, 2003)

Daisy,
"knock on wood" 
To touch wood is a superstition action to ward off any evil consequences, say of untimely boasting; it can also be a charm to bring good luck. The origin is quite unknown, though some writers have pointed to pre-Christian rituals involving the spirits of sacred trees such as the oak, ash, holly or hawthorn. There is, Im told, an old Irish belief that you should knock on wood to let the little people know that you are thanking them for a bit of good luck. Others have sought a meaning in which the wood symbolises the timber of the cross, but this may be a Christianisation of an older ritual. The childrens game of tag in which you are only safe so long as you are touching wood is not likely to be connected (an indicator of this may be that at times iron was substituted for wood if there was no wood handy). The phrase itself seems to be modern, as the oldest citation for touch wood in the Oxford English Dictionary dates only from 1908; my searches havent turned up anything earlier. (Incidentally, that work doesnt have a single example of knock on wood, which is the American version of the British touch wood.)
Simon
(nothing about hives or bees though)

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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

> I wish there was a forum to discuss and talk about
> survivor/resistant/no chem approach on this site,
> without having to mix it up with those wishing to
> do the other things.

Consider it done. There is now a Forum called Biological Beekeeping. Cell size discussion has been incorporated into it. As on the BioBee List, this is NOT the place to discuss the use of drug and chemical treatments. Here we find other ways to keep the bees healthy, wealthy and wise.

- Barry


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