# How to determine 'the week before swarming'



## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

I'm reading OTS Queen Rearing and the system uses 'the week before swarming' as a starting point. 

How would I determine when this is for my location?

Thanks in advance.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I would ask the beekeepers in your area. Here in the Northern states it is fairly predictable. Another way would be to look at the swarming thread here on Beesource that is updated as beekeepers see swarms and see if Napa comes up.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Peak swarm season is May - June in our area. We will have a few early swarms and a few late swarms too, but not nearly the number as during the main flow months of May-June.


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## Steed (Nov 23, 2015)

i am in new york. we usually notice a large amount of bees out front of the hive the days leading up to a swarm. if you see the langstroth style box is completely covered in bees you better get over there and literally find the queen cells if there are any and put those frames in a new box take out several brood frames and honey frames covered in bees put those with the yet to emerge queen in the new box and shake off a few frames from the old hive into the new box and immediatly close it up.... works for me. not saying its a sure bet but if you do it right those bees will be confused long enough to stay in the new box and when a new queen emerges shel go for a flight mate and return and get down to business. as long as you dumped enough foragers and brood cells in the new box youl have some house bees emerging shortly after to work on building the new colony.. im not an expert but thats how it works for me and i usually drive past my bees off from my drive way a few times a day and take note if the bees are all outside the hive acting funny and if i find a queen cell my hunch is right and i immediatly split em up.


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

Since you are in the reading mode may I suggest that you go to the Point of View section and read what Walt Wright has to say. He covers the swarming process pretty well and may answer your question to your satisfaction. My view on what he says is you are looking for the congestion in the brood chamber or the filling of the brood nest with nectar. This does not allow the queen any space to lay eggs so the swarming process starts. So a week before the swarm is a simplistic statement of this occurence.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Nw Ohio I use 20 days plus after danaloin bloom. Meaning the first hatch of brood. Witch is the first major pollen to come in.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I keep my eye on apple trees. about as good an indication as I can find. Apples bloom, bees swarm, at least reproduction swarms. having said that. the only hive I had swarm this year did so in August. After honey harvest.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> I would ask the beekeepers in your area. <snip> Another way would be to look at the swarming thread here on Beesource that is updated as beekeepers see swarms and see if Napa comes up.


That thread was perfect, Thanks! I only wish the info was consolidated. I noticed in 2007 a database was spoken about, but I couldn't find anything else about it.

Appreciate everyone's reply, thank you.

From what I've found on Bsource the North SF bay area swarm season is typically the 1st week of March, but the 2nd week of Feb. isn't unheard of.

Cart before horse, but I was reading Mel's book and wondered how it was determined.


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## erlaita (Jan 17, 2015)

Hello,
a comprehensive scheme on natural swarming

http://www.beekeeping.org.uk/is_nat_swarm_cal.pdf


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I count the start of swarming season as March 1 and it runs through June. Some years you can get an early swarm the end of February, but usually not.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't have Mel's book. But the links on the net pretty much sums up his method and strategy.
He mentioned about 10 frames of capped broods by taking 2 and the old queen to make a new nuc.
Because each year our environment changes locally, the Spring build up can be either early or later according to
the weather. Some years are warmer than the other so the trees bloom sooner.
The only way to be sure is to do a hive inspection to determine how many frame of capped broods you have
inside the hive. If you are looking at the local environment according to the trees and flowers that bloomed then
peach blossoms are the earliest follow by plum, pear, apple and blackberry as well as other local blooming trees from February til May. 
Also, you need to look at the hive population build up in the Spring time. A full grown strong healthy hive will be more likely to swarm than
a small 5 frame nuc with only 2 frame of bees in there. You would split up the strong colony first than doing it to the small nuc hive, right.
So how do you know? By looking at the outside environment and inside of the hive to determine. This is where the skills and the art of beekeeping that will build up over time.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

StingerMcStung said:


> I'm reading OTS Queen Rearing and the system uses 'the week before swarming' as a starting point.
> 
> How would I determine when this is for my location?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


For your early grafts, time it with your first drone production, and add a week to allow them to start flight.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

Great tips. Thank you.

I'm getting my first nucs in spring, but if it's possible I'd like to make a couple nucs with queens as a safety net. Which is why I'm reading the queen rearing stuff. I don't know if that's asking too much for the first year resources.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Nope! If your hive has build up in May the 
number of required brood frames in Mel's method then
there is a chance to raise the bees naturally by giving
them a brood break. I have read the entire information on
the net when you mentioned his method 2 days ago. Ignorantly, I
had used his queen rearing and nuc split method without knowing
what it was call. If I can do it 2 years in a row successfully so can you.
This coming Spring I have 2 full grown hives to try it out because of this year's July nuc split with a new
laying queen. They are still laying now. If I missed the Spring flow then in the Autumn I will pick up
the honey flow unless I plant for them all summer long. Time it right with the bees hatching every 21 days for the splits. Also, the
new nuc will not produce the needed drones for the virgin queen. So you have to rely on the local drones for the mating from March to May on.
My advice for you is to buy 2-3 nucs because when one is in trouble the other 2 can come to the rescue. My first time 2 strong hives
died because I had no beekeeping knowledge when I started.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

Cool deal! That's encouraging.
OTS queen rearing seems like a straight forward method, as does David Laferney/Clemmins nuc box method.

Yes re: multiple nucs to start. Given the cost, that's why I'd like to make some back-up nucs.

Hopefully it'll work out. I'm reading a lot, but doing it vs reading it is a different animal (as is everything.) I still have to nail down a treatment schedule/chem-rotation for IPM, but I digress.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

As others are talking on the other threads, why
do you need a treatment/chem schedule? Mel's strategy
was to split at the highest mite population in July and have
the new queen to lay that hopefully will out run the mites going
into Autumn/winter. When 800 mites start going into the first capped
broods from the new laying, after the solstice queen they all
died and the hygienic workers will removed the dead capped broods.
I have seen this happened over and over in my hives here. That is why
I still have the bees to play with after 4 years. It works if you know
how to do it right. It's all about the timing. I plan to oav gadget half and no treat on
the other half so that I can test out their mite fighting ability and still have some bees for
the next season. If this works then combining the 3 methods should give me some mite fighting
bees soon.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

I'm going to start with 'better living with chemicals' for the first 3-4 years.  If/when the hive count is up and if I can keep them alive and thriving with IPM, I may venture into TF.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I am 4 years ahead of you using the same method that you are going to use
later on. Eventually I will go the tf route as well just like you will.
Keeping them alive is very easy in our environment with the July mated 
queens in the 5 frame nucs. Because the mites are here to stay, it is better
to allow the bees to manage them also. There are the mite biting bees and the vsh hygienics bees you can try too. The survivor queens is good also. You can go through this directory to see if you can find some vsh queens first at http://vpqueenbees.com/purchase/production-queens
Getting the right stocks to start off will allow you to get years ahead of the game.
Right now I only treat with oav at every brood hatch cycle when needed. In between if there are not that many dead larvae or DWV affected by the mites I will allow the bees to deal with it. This way they should get used to the mites and know how to deal with them later on. Without getting both to get use to each others then taking the chemical off will kill the bees for sure. Of course, when your apiary grows you don't want to continue to manipulate the bees anymore. So this is one way to try and see if it will work. With our mild climate we can keep bees all year long when you feed them through out the Autumn and winter time. My September queens are still laying but in smaller patches for the big fat winter bees. 
Every year we have the summer dearth so you have to feed them a few months to keep the queen laying. You can also grow flowers and plants for them in the summer months to help them along. Raising the July queens is hard when there is a dearth on so you must feed the hive in order to have sufficient RJ for the developing queen cells. Taking 3 strong colonies next to each others and then removing the 2 weakest ones will enable all the foragers to go into the remaining hive. Then removed the queen to make a nuc like Mel's method. Either do a graft or the OTS will allow them to make the big queen cells. Imagine 3 strong colonies into one 5 frame nuc for the developing cells. Making a bee bomb! Try it you might like it as much as I do.

The queen is still laying now:


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

beepro said:


> Right now I only treat with oav at every brood hatch cycle when needed.


I was considering doing just oav, but after hearing Randy Oliver speak at the Calif Bee association in Sac a few weeks ago, he was suggesting a rotation of different treatments throughout the year, so as not to build up a tolerant mite. I believe he said the topic would be posted on his site soon, but don't quote me on that.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

This is what the beekeepers are afraid of that the mites somehow can 
adapt and build up their resistance to the oav treatment one day. So far in
Europe for the last 20 years I have read that oav treatment proved to be safe and effective. 
No resistant found so far otherwise I and others would not be using it here. And the EPA would not approve it as another mite treatment alternative.
So go ahead to treat with the oav this season. I have invented another way of delivering the oav under the hive. See it here at 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D2vLtiF2fI
So I will keep on using it until I find one day that it will not work anymore.
But so far it is clearing out the mites as usual. 
You can also raise the resistant bees or get the queen that can handle the mites too. And treat them if you want to.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

To your title question, jbraun has it correct in his post #5. 

*Back-filling the brood area with nectar is the tell-tale*. It is caused by running out of space, which causes the 5- to 15-day-old nurse bees to become "unemployed". They start humming a warble sound that can be detected by the Apidictor device, for which plans are available in the Build It Yourself section here on Beesource. In any case, it's time to divide the colony. A queen cell is another tell-tale, but it is now too late - they are IN SWARMING MODE and WILL swarm at some point, unless you divide them before she hatches.

Time of year depends on you area - mine is all year long! SoCal has seen swarms in November, December, January, and they really start taking off in February through October. I've even had a swarm take off at night!

Introducing a mated queen beats a walk-away split hands down. The queenless part of the colony does not lose a month of prime nectar flow while the new queenie is developing, hatching, growing, mating, learning to lay a solid pattern, then trying to make up for lost adult bee population on limited resources. Even a "good" queen with "bad" genetics will keep a colony alive and increasing, so dropping $25 on her at the right time is a bargain when you consider honey, increase missed, surplus bees, winter survival, etc. Beekeepers whose operations are large enough tend to keep a queen bank or two as close to full-time as their area will permit.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

And don't forget to find the queen or see new eggs. I once had a case that the 
newly mated queen had disappeared. When the brood nest started back filling because of a queen that was recently dead I thought
the queen was still alive. But found out later on that she was no longer in the hive. Then I drop in 5 frame of bees with a new queen from one
of the mating nucs in the center of this hive to keep it going. That is how I requeen a hive when it is in trouble.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

The best telltale sign of imminent swarming is back-filling nectar in the brood nest. They're running out of room for the honey. The nurse bees become unemployed and begin emitting a warbling sound. 

Once queen cells are under construction, it's too late. They either must be split and a queen added to the queenless section, or they will swarm.

If you see nectar back-filling in the Springtime, it's time to divide the hive and add queens, or raise queens for the rest of the yard. 

I prefer to trip this early with the strongest hives combined to make a starter/finisher a week early so the others can be divided before they swarm. This is not the earliest time possible - I let them build up pretty good - it is a timing / experience thing. I want a STRONG finisher colony!


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

if you catch them once queen cells are present with larva but not capped and you are positive they haven't swarmed yet, it's a perfect to do a teranov split. It's a nice little method to keep in your bag of tricks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9spMk20IZlc


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

We have swarming starting here when Apples flower (earlier varieties) as well.

Seems to be a common indicator.

Getting and keeping the bees making wax during swarm season seems to stop swarming.


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

What have you invented? What does it look like? How does it work?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I've found that Opening the sides of the Broodnest helps to get heaps of comb drawn and I've had no swarms (yet). It also doesn't seem to be a problem if you get a cold snap.

In general I start doing it a couple of weeks before Apples flower (early flowering varieties).

I've only needed to do it around 3 times if using deeps doing it fortnightly. If you are using mediums you would need to check more often.

There are only two steps:

1. Move the outermost frame from each side up into the middle of a new box.

2. Insert a new frame (with half a sheet of foundation) between the outside frames of brood and frames of honey stores. (So that the Broodnest is not disturbed).


So with two boxes you end up with 4 drawn frames in the new box. This helps the bees to move up into the third (new) box.

Placing a "hole" next to, or inside the Broodnest is what stimulates wax making. I prefer not to disturb the Broodnest in case of a cold snap, so I put frames with half a sheet of foundation next to the Broodnest. The half sheet of foundation is the hole, causing the bees to hold nectar in their stomachs and stimulates wax making. The queen starts laying in the new comb as it is being drawn out. The majority of the population at this stage of the season is young and just the right age for making wax.

You may have all 3 boxes having brood for a little while. If you want to you can then use one box for a split around the Summer Soltice. Also, if you can find her move the old queen to the split.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i agree that backfilling in the brood nest is a tell tale sign that swarm preps are well underway. walt wright is credited for entering this observation into the literature by randy oliver. walt also describes that preceding the backfilling of the broodnest proper is the loss of the band of clear cells at the top of the nest. 

coming out of winter the bees expand the broodnest upward into the stored honey overhead. careful observation reveals the house bees clearing out and polishing up cells in an arc at the top of the brood nest for the queen to lay in.

_prior to_ backfilling of the more central areas of the broodnest is the loss of this arc of clear cells at the top of the nest. seeing the open cells at the top indicates that the colony is still expanding the nest upward. when you see feed filling the cells adjacent to the brood at the top of the nest the upward expansion has stopped.

what we observe in our area is that if upward expansion is stopped early enough in the season the next thing to happen is backfilling in the lower part of the broodnest. this is observed as the _filling_ of the open cells as the capped brood emerges, vs. seeing just a tiny bit of feed here and there at the bottom of the cells put there for the next round of brood. these frames may appear as mixed capped brood and along with cells full of nectar. it is not unusual to see queen cells already started and perhaps capped by this stage.

what we also observe is that if upward expansion is encouraged to continue long enough into the season via checkerboarding the colony will not backfill the lower nest area but rather start reducing the broodnest and go into wide open honey storage mode.

what i have also found is that it helps to have room at the bottom for the colony to move the nest down to. in my case with a single deep and 3 checkerboarded medium supers the broodnest reaches the top of the top super and then gets moved down into the empty bottom deep. the timing of this coincides with the onset of our main nectar flow and the result is a robust nonswarming population and a good honey yield.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Good explanation Squarepeg.

Opening the Sides of the Broodnest was developed out of discussions with Walt Wright and Michael Bush. I didn't have drawn comb to checkerboard with so used outer edge frames instead. I checkerboard frames after the initial manipulation.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks matt. i agree getting the wax makers busy as soon as possible is an important factor. i have confirmed the observation that they will draw foundationless frames earlier in the season as compared to drawing foundation. opening up the sides with foundationless frames makes good sense for those who may not have drawn comb yet or perhaps are using different size boxes as i do.

i must admit that i am still envious of walt for only having to do the one manipulation in late winter and nothing more until the honey harvest. my bees haven't allowed that. the time i have to spend in the bee yards is somewhat limited, but i find all i really need to do is pay attention to what is happening at the top of the broodnest, i.e. looking for that clear band of cells, confirming broodnest expansion, and not allowing for solid honey overhead until later in the season.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

jbraun said:


> ...I suggest that you go to the Point of View section.


Where is that found?


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

Colobee said:


> Where is that found?


Colo: I don't know either, but I've found this link to Walt Wright's articles: http://www.k4vb.com/all walt articles.htm

Great stuff thanks all.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Point of View: go to Beesource 'home' page, there is a column on the left that includes the following -
How to Start Beekeeping
Bees & Supplies
Point of View
Build It Yourself
Resources
Product Reviews

Take a look at the Resources tab as well. Resources>online community>elements of beekeeping.
You might find something interesting there as well.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Thank you, Clyde.

To the OP: If you use drones as an indicator of pre-swarm season, remember that they begin flying after just a few days but are not sexually mature for ~12 days. That can be a nice "heads up" . Swarm season is dependent on having mature drones, and once you start seeing them in fair numbers, mating season isn't far off - a bit over a week in the earliest cases.

Yearly variations in weather may change swarm season, and for the past few years peak swarm season has shifted forward 1-2 weeks around here. Spring drones appear to be a fair indicator that swarm season is approaching, regardless of the date.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

.


StingerMcStung said:


> I was considering doing just oav, but after hearing Randy Oliver speak at the Calif Bee association in Sac a few weeks ago, he was suggesting a rotation of different treatments throughout the year, so as not to build up a tolerant mite. I believe he said the topic would be posted on his site soon, but don't quote me on that.


Resistance usually developers when a single chemical that affects the physiological function of the mite. My understanding is that OA burns the mouth parts of the mite so resistance is not an issue. Why it affects the mite and not the bee must be related to dosing.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

So if you see that the arc is no longer empty how do you prevent solid honey overhead? Do you checkerboard the dada the above the brood nest to break up the solid honey above the brood nest?


squarepeg said:


> many thanks matt. i agree getting the wax makers busy as soon as possible is an important factor. i have confirmed the observation that they will draw foundationless frames earlier in the season as compared to drawing foundation. opening up the sides with foundationless frames makes good sense for those who may not have drawn comb yet or perhaps are using different size boxes as i do.
> 
> i must admit that i am still envious of walt for only having to do the one manipulation in late winter and nothing more until the honey harvest. my bees haven't allowed that. the time i have to spend in the bee yards is somewhat limited, but i find all i really need to do is pay attention to what is happening at the top of the broodnest, i.e. looking for that clear band of cells, confirming broodnest expansion, and not allowing for solid honey overhead until later in the season.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good question janne. here's a more detailed explanation of what i did last season:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?319281-checkerboarding-2015

at the end of february i eliminated solid honey overhead by checkerboarding as described in the the thread. 

almost all of my colonies brooded to the very top of the checkerboarded supers without reestablishing solid honey overhead. the arc was visible and kept advancing up until they were at the top. none of these colonies swarmed.

i had two colonies that stopped expanding the broodnest upward when they reached the next to the top super. with these two the arc was getting filled as were the empty frames comb in the top super. i.e. they were in the process of reestablishing solid honey overhead. what i did with those two was 'pyramid' up two frames of brood into the top super and opened up the broodnest with empty comb in all three supers. one of these two colonies swarmed and the other did not.

about the time the nonswarming colonies reached the top we were just coming into our main spring nectar flow and i was started to see new white wax cappings on the honey cells at the very top of the stack. i also had placed a new super of foundation on each hive above the checkerboarded supers and noticed that they were starting to draw those out.

when i saw the new wax getting drawn i figured they were past swarm ambition and pretty much left them alone until it was time to harvest honey.

walt suggests that having about a super's worth of overhead honey in 'reserve' is one of the preconditions for a colony to enter swarm preps. the idea is the reserve is a contingency for the survival of the parent colony as it faces losing its queen and perhaps up to half of the work force. 

in previous seasons i have simply put 2 or 3 supers of empty comb over a single deep containing the broodnest in it thinking that i had it made regarding swarm prevention. what happened with those is solid honey got reestablished in the first or second super on the early flows, the top supers got ignored, and they swarmed anyway.

i think having the alternating frames of empty comb and honey over the broodnest coming out of winter makes it very inviting to the bees to expand up. they take advantage of the heat rising off of the cluster, there is room for the queen to lay, and the brood feed is right there handy.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

WBVC said:


> .
> 
> Resistance usually developers when a single chemical that affects the physiological function of the mite. My understanding is that OA burns the mouth parts of the mite so resistance is not an issue. Why it affects the mite and not the bee must be related to dosing.


Interesting. I very well could have misinterpreted the rationale behind rotation, and I haven't looked into the mechanics of treatments and bee biology/anatomy/pathology nor do I pretend to know anything about it at this time.

Here is a link to a video (not mine) of the presentation that Randy gave at CSBA: 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?320078-Randy-Oliver-miticide-lecture-CSBA-2015

Thanks


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