# Why Not Buy Frames of Drawn Comb?



## MES613 (Nov 19, 2010)

I could use a little guidance from those with a few years’ beekeeping experience.

I am a newbee, planning to start five hives (from three different nuc suppliers) this spring at my home in New Hampshire.

I’ve read loads of books and am attending a local bee school.

From what I understand, it is NOT generally realistic to expect honey in my first year. Rather, it appears to me that more often than not, the overriding goal of a first-year beekeeper (beyond gaining experience) is to have bees draw enough comb and establish enough stores to survive the first winter so that the hive can be in a position to take full advantage of a full season in year #2. In that regard, I have been told to “feed, feed, feed” my hives “like crazy” in year one in order to provide enough provisions for drawing comb and winter stores, and that any stores in the supers will likely be sugar water and not honey.

It occurs to me that were I able to get my hands on some drawn comb frames, my bees would need to spend less time and energy making wax during that first summer, and I might even be able to get a few bottles of honey for our enjoyment next fall.

As it turns out, there is a retiring commercial beekeeper nearby who is offering his equipment for sale, including hundreds of deep hive bodies and shallow honey supers and frames, all with drawn comb and many of which are still wet with honey from when they were uncapped and extracted last fall. I’ve looked at those supers, and although the boxes are in very rough condition (especially compared to the stack of new boxes and frames that I have built this winter), most of the frames seem very well used but structurally sound, with large amounts of drawn foundation. Many of the comb cells are discolored, the result (says the retitring beekeeper) of his generally running colonies of one deep plus one shallow, topped by shallow supers. In other words, he’s told me that many of his shallows have been used at one time or another for brood. But he’s assured me that when it is time to put on supers, all I need to do is put these supers on and “the bees will clean them out” and repair whatever comb needs repairing. 

I’m thinking of buying a bunch of those supers and frames for use on one or two of my hives this summer in the hopes that I might run one or two of my hives in a more traditional manner and not needing to force wax production in those colonies beyond establishing the brood boxes.

What do you think? 

I know enough to be dangerous. Although I realize that I run some risk of importing any problems that this beekeeper had in to my apiary, don’t I largely run that same “risk” when I buy nucs and/or packages from strangers? I have no reason to believe that this beekeeper had any undisclosed issues, and indeed, expect that in his 30+ years in the honey business, he learned a fair amount and experienced much more than I am gleaning from the various “how to” beekeeping books that I have read.

Why would and wouldn’t I want to put some of his supers and frames on one or two of my hives this year, and free up the bees in those hives from the task of making comb? Alternatively, wouldn’t I want to seed my hives with a few of his frames in order to give my bees a head start on making honey?

I’d be grateful for your insights. Am I missing something critical?


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

It is an idea very worth pursuing. Here in Maine, you can ask the state bee inspector to take a look at the equipment and perhaps you can ask the New Hampshire inspector to do the same (assuming that NH has an inspector.) It's possible that the apiary was inspected last year and given a clean bill of health.

You certainly will get a jump on the honey production by giving them drawn equipment but with 5 new hives this year, the odds are good, at least in my experience, that you will get at least a small surplus from at least one of those hives to furnish you with those few bottle of honey, even on all new foundation.

Those that say that you get nothing from a hive the first year is simply a way of telling you not to get your hopes up. 

Wayne


----------



## MES613 (Nov 19, 2010)

Thanks for the advice Wayne. 

On the point of whether to expect honey in year 1, I figured that the books were trying reduce my expectations, and figured I'd get lucky and be able to squeeze out a little. 

But then in my bee class we were told that because of the emphasis on pretty much continually feeding sugar syrup, much of the stores that the bees would be putting away in the honey supers would really be sugar water and not nectar, and therefore, although I might have some full supers, I'd really be extracting a lot of sugar water, and although it might be sweet, it wouldn't really be honey.

That made sense to me,a nd did more than reduce my expectations. Hence my desire to start the hives with some previously drawn comb and bypass the time and energy required for some new hive comb building.


----------



## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

If you get nucs you may be able to make some honey and if you stop feeding once they get the brood nest is built out when you put the supers on it should be real honey in the supers. But, if you can get clean drawn frames there is no reason you can't make honey. There are commercial bee keepers that shake out all their bees in the fall save all the drawn combs and add packages in the spring. They make loads of honey. So what you are talking about is entirely possible.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

You will get mixed answers, depending who you ask.

The negatives would be possible disease issues, possible chemical contamination. IE, what did he treat his hives with for varroa, and did he have CCD, etc. 

The positives would be a big saving in labor over making the frames yourself, they will probably be properly and strongly put together, and just the fact they are already drawn, your bees WILL go into them sooner and make more use of them quickly.

My advice would be do it. There are some folks though that would tell you not to touch anything a commercial beekeeper has used.

As to getting honey in your first season, this depends on area, plus how you manage the bees. However there is no reason why not to get honey the first season. I sell hives and offer some follow up support, and most of those people get 100 or 200 lbs honey their first season provided they follow my instructions. There is a philosophical divide though, there are those who want to follow "natural" methods advocated in certain books, some of them will get little or no honey. I try to encourage my customers to try traditional methods for at least the first year, just so they see how a hive should look and what it CAN do, then go "natural" after that if they wish.

A thought, is the guy you are buying from nearby? If he has been making his living from his bees for 30 years it can be assumed he can at least get enough honey to turn a profit. He may not be willing (it's hard dealing with newbies), but if you could possibly have him agree to give you a little help through your first season it should be a gauranteed path to a good honey crop, plus you will learn far more in useful practicle type stuff, than you are likely to from any book.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Unless you know what you are doing, beekeepingwise, and know the person you are buying drawn comb from, you may be buying more trouble than the drawn comb is worth. When buying drawn comb, the potential for buying diseased comb is greater than growing your own.

Why is the person selling drawn comb selling it, when, generally speaking, drawn comb is worth alot to a beekeeper who has hives. It's where the honey and brood are stored and if already drawn the bees don't have to rebuild it.

So be smart and be aware of what you are buying.

If I had as many frames of drawn comb as you might want, could you tell if the comb was mostly drone comb or not? Just something to think about.


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

I might stay away from the brood combs, but go for the honey combs. 

mike


----------



## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

MES613 said:


> Thanks for the advice Wayne.
> 
> But then in my bee class we were told that because of the emphasis on pretty much continually feeding sugar syrup, much of the stores that the bees would be putting away in the honey supers would really be sugar water and not nectar, and therefore, although I might have some full supers, I'd really be extracting a lot of sugar water, and although it might be sweet, it wouldn't really be honey.


I am sorry, this does not make alot of sense. You will not have honey supers on while the syrup is on. Only a brood chamber to start out and then a -second one when they are ready...6-8 frames of bees and brood - Feed only what they take in to use...not to store in the spring. Once they start to store, there is a flow on...unless it is fall time.
If the bees get fed and they start to store the syrup, it will pack in the brood nest and they it will be ripe for swarming. Not good for new packages. Feed what they need until they start foraging. When a dearth hits, supplement again (w/o honey supers on). In the early fall, feed to prep for winter..when all honey supers are pulled


----------



## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

> The negatives would be possible disease issues, possible chemical contamination. IE, what did he treat his hives with for varroa,


 Oldtimer is right on the money, If this guy said some were honey supers as well as brood supers and lets say he used Checkmite...which is Coumaphos an organophosphate and quite possibly the worse thing ever invented to "help" beekeepers you could get some nasties in your honey...something to think about, especially if you want to tell people your honey is pure and without chemicals and still have a conscious


----------



## MES613 (Nov 19, 2010)

Thank you all for the advice. I am finding out however that every answered question seems to stimulate yet another question (or two!).

Honeydew, presumably I've been buying this guy's honey at the local roadside stand for years. Yes, he might have cut a corner or two in his 30+ years as a commercial honeymaker, but am I really taking on or subjecting my friends and family to any risk that we haven't already taken by consuming his honey --- or for that matter any other honey purchased from a "local" honey source?

Honeyshack, thanks for clearing that up for me. I know that I have been told to keep feeding syrup until the bees stop taking it. I guess I just had this image of loading up the feeder and the bees feeding on syrup through the first summer. What I think I read in your note though is new to me. Do you put the honey supers on and take them off during the course of a season. I guess I thought that once you put the supers on, you leave them there until you take them off to extract. You seem to be suggesting that if there is a dearth, you replace the super with a feeder, and I suppose you keep that going until the bees stop taking it again, at which point you put the super back on again. Is that right? In other words, you never have a feeder and honey supers on at the same time?

Wayne from Maine, I believe that New Hampshire does have an official Beekeeper. In fact, one of the nucs that I am buying is from that fellow, and, so far at least, he couldn't be more helpful in providing guidance. I will have him look the frames over. Of course, I am not looking for trouble (or disease or contaminated honey) --- just hoping to save a little construction time on the comb and recycle some of nature's bounty. Seems like a "green" thing to do and a possible win-win for me and the bees.

Oldtimer, FROM NEW ZEALAND. [What an unbelievable world we live in. I ask a question and within a few hours, someone who I don't know in New Zealand offers me a hand! -Thank you.] I am inclined to go ahead and give this a shot on two of my hives. I think that it will be instructive, and from the winter mortality figures that I have been hearing, I'm not sure that I have much to lose. I have no reason to suspect that this fellow did anything objectionable to his equipment. I think providing some drawn comb for the girls will give us a jump, and make things more interesting.

Sqkcrk, he's selling the supers because he is retiring. He sold most of his boxes and frames to a fellow that worked for him over the years; he's keeping a couple of hundred hives so that he doesn't have to pay off some kind of USA Farmers Loan, and he's selling the rest to whoever comes up with the $$s. Seems like a credible story to me, although I don't kid myself in to thinking that I am getting his "best" stuff.

JohnG, I think you hit the nail on the head, and I think that has largely been his practice.

Finally, Mike (Kingfisher), there are several frames of wax that are still dripping of honey. Those are easy to identify. There are several frames that are dry and discolored. I've been told that they were either rotated through as brood frames, or are frames from supers on hives that didn't make honey last year, which was not the best year as I understand it. So, other than on a few of the frames (say 20%) that are clean and still dripping, I'm not certain whether they were brood or honey. Why would it make a difference. If they were brood, wouldn't the bees just clean the comb out?


Again, thank you all for your help.

Hope that you all have plentiful nectar flows.


----------



## bfriendly (Jun 14, 2009)

You can be more certain that if the comb was in "honey supers only" that is may have less chemical residue, (most beekeeper don't treat with honey supers on, at least on purpose). whereas most brood comb you may be taking more of a chance.. with residues as well as disease


----------



## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Regardless if the supers were used for honey strickly the wax is still a wonderful sponge. If its old wax comb they you wil be subjecting your bees to whatever got dragged in over the years, whether its disease, or chemicals from treating mites or pesticides or whatever. Especially bad if you get diseased stuff. 

If you are going to go thru with buying any of his equipment I would cherry pick and only grab the comb that is white new looking from last seasons drawing of the wax. Even if the guy wants a bit more for it that will be your safest bet buying used drawn comb. 

Personally I have had a minor issue with buying drawn comb and ended up burning about 20 boxes due to it. I will never buy used boxes and comb again. Anyway good luck with your venture. Maybe you should buy some of his extracting equipment instead of used boxes.


----------



## MES613 (Nov 19, 2010)

Thanks for the input. BMAC, do you mind telling me what "minor problem" you had that resulted in your burning 20 boxes?


----------



## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

In regards to feeding during a dearth...
Honey flows are very regional. Ours is strong and for 6-8 weeks only. We feed outside that period. If at anytime we feed, we do not have honey supers on. 
If you are in an area where you get many flows over different periods, say a flow in may and june and then one in the fall...how you manage your bees would determine if you feed. For example, you might pull the May June honey and extract, and feed the bees until the flow again in August September. Or you might leave the may june honey for the bees to consume and then extract the fall honey. 
I do not know your area at all. My comment was basically directed at a statement you made:
"...because of the emphasis on pretty much continually feeding sugar syrup, much of the stores that the bees would be putting away in the honey supers would really be sugar water and not nectar, and therefore, although I might have some full supers, I'd really be extracting a lot of sugar water, and although it might be sweet, it wouldn't really be honey."

Yes you need to feed your bees, but without honey super on...was my basic premise. The only thing which goes in honey supers is well....Honey!


Just watch out...feeding too much to the point that they store syrup is a perfect storm for swarms...It is a gentle balance.


----------



## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

MES613 said:


> Thanks for the input. BMAC, do you mind telling me what "minor problem" you had that resulted in your burning 20 boxes?


The problem was american foul brood. The beek I bought them from didnt realize he had american foul brood and neither did I until started going thru them. So I had to carefully go thru every box and ended up heating my house with the nasty boxes instead of using them for bees. Anyway since that hassle happened I decided no more used comb.

Thats why I mentioned if you decide to make the purchase then cherry pick and grab nothing but what looks like the best you can see. This obviously isnt bullet proof but you sure run a lower risk if you can grab white comb in the deeps.


----------



## Bucksnort (Feb 6, 2011)

Since this is your 1st year of beekeeping, you may gain more if you shift your focus to learning instead of honey production. There is nothing wrong with trying to maximize your honey production however, staring a hive with undrawn frames and watching how long it takes your bees to fill them out might be of more value than the honey you sell this year and pay for itself in future years. Most likely, you will end up with honey your 1st year plus the knowledge gained from starting from scratch. If you can't pass up this opportunity on the used equipment, keep 2 of your 5 hives to only brand new equipment. It will then give you a "control" group of 2 hives to see how they do against the 3 that you are giving the drawn comb to.

Only bad things happen quickly.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I know plenty of people who bought drawn comb and, like BMAC, learned why it isn't a good idea. But if you are planning on this course as a shortcut of sorts be aware of what you are buying. Ask the beekeeper questions.

Why is the beekeeper selling drawn comb?
Did they come from AFB colonies?
What's their disease rate and how did they handle it?
Much more.

Most won't care for answering questions like that, but that tells you something about them and you should act accordingly.


----------



## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

MES613 "Although I realize that I run some risk of importing any problems that this beekeeper had into my apiary, don’t I largely run that same “risk” when I buy nucs and/or packages from strangers? I have no reason to believe that this beekeeper had any undisclosed issues, and indeed, expect that in his 30+ years in the honey business, he learned a fair amount and experienced much more than I am gleaning from the various “how to” beekeeping books that I have read." Go for it!!! With such reasoning (terrific) you are going into it with your eyes wide open. As a longtime former sideliner (350 hives), your seller was in the business for 30 years. Believe me, a beek like him cannot stay in the business without being very smart about what he is giving the bees and how he cared for them. I would prefer buying from him because of his knowledge about keeping the tools of his family's very livelihood intact for so many years! Take advantage of this opportunity as such beekeepers retire not too often. OMTCW


----------



## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

> Honeydew, but am I really taking on or subjecting my friends and family to any risk that we haven't already taken by consuming his honey --- or for that matter any other honey purchased from a "local" honey source?


 other honey producers have their own conscious to worry about I was just saying if you decide to sell "all natural no pesticide honey" and you use frames that may be contaminated with who knows what then its on your conscious, until somebody tests your honey and finds that it is filled with every thing under the sun illegal then its on your dime also, but if we're only talking 60lbs a year or so to friends I wouldn't worry to much if its the whitest comb available as stated earlier in the posts...hope this helps


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If one does a chemical analysis of honey from even treatment free hives, one may be surprised at what shows up, that the beekeeper didn't even use. The bees live in the same environment that the rest of us do and iot is generally contaminated w/ chemical pesticides and nonpesticide chemicals too.

So, I think the previous post implies that one can produce honey that is purely chemical free and you can't, from what I was told by Mary Ann Frasier of Penn State. On the other hand, these chemicals are shoping up in levels quite low and often 10% of "acceptible" levels and below.

Wax is another thing. More chemicals there.


----------



## MES613 (Nov 19, 2010)

To all of you that have weighed in, my thanks again.

Bucksnort, my focus is entirely on learning and having some fun, and I plan on using this drawn comb on only one or two of my planned five hives. I imagine that providing drawn comb in and of itself ought to be instructive, comparing those colonies that either got poisoned or got a kick start from having some comb. I have no intention of selling honey, but I would like to maximize the possibility that I will be able to learn a bit about extraction, bottling, etc. by maximizing my shot at getting some honey in Year #1.

Honeydew, I won't be selling honey, and the only representation that I will make to my family and friends is that the honey that I am giving them "comes from those hives out back." Of course, I would strongly prefer not to poison any one, even in small doses. So I will heed your suggestion and use only the cleanest-looking frames, and I appreciate very much your caution and hope that all of the local honey that I buy is made by beekeepers with your sense of consience. 

Cedar Hill, thanks for the encouragement. I'll let you know how it works out. By the way, what does OMTCW mean?

And sqkcrk, forewarned is forearmed. I am hoping that this is not a BIG mistake, but if it is, I am comforted by the fact that no one will get harmed, and I will have learned much.

Again, thank you all for your guidance.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

MES613 said:


> By the way, what does OMTCW mean?


Either Cedar Hill needs to spell this out every time or I'll have to add it to the beekeeping glossary. It's his own unique acronym. I can never remember what it means.


----------



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

I believe it means "only my two cents worth"


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Either Cedar Hill needs to spell this out every time or I'll have to add it to the beekeeping glossary. It's his own unique acronym. I can never remember what it means.


Maybe there is a way that it will always appear spelled out? Some sort of program? Or something?


----------



## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

*I did.. Re: Why Not Buy Frames of Drawn Comb?*

MES613
I just got some equipment in a similar situation. Not from a commercial beekeeper a local one. It all seems on the up. I'm going to have the bee inspector look at the comb. I did see some mites and hive beetles so I'm freezing mine before I use it. Hopefully it will work out for both of us. Good Luck. Virginia Wolf


----------

