# Disease ID help . . . Foulbrood?



## [email protected] (May 12, 2010)

You dont say any thing about population or mite loads. Judging from just the photos of the brood it looks like the final collaps stage of PMS or paracitic mite syndrome. The cell in the center of the second photo looks like deformed wing virus infected brood. It all looks sick and neglected. In any case, this looks like a colony in very dire straits.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Not AFB, thankfully. If there are brown, rubbery scales in the bottom of old cells (and also on the bottom board), it's likely European Foul brood. This can be treated just like AFB with terramycin, and you do not have to burn the equipment or bees since the organism responsible does not form spores.

If you are in a dearth, you should also feed pollen supplement and syrup. You may have to requeen to completely get rid of EFB, but it's usually a stress disease. Lots of it around this year, and this is the same time it appeared in my hive last summer.

Peter


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

randy oliver discussed a couple of kinds of atypical efb in his most recent article. are you thinking about sending some samples in?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Population - weak. I've been splitting alot this year, more than I probably should have. I've seen this in two of my ten hives. One is a five frame medium nuc that I made up a week ago or two ago. Four frames of brood, a queen, one frame of food and two frames of nurse bees (shaken off). Noticed today that the queen didn't make it, they have about half a dozen e-cells made. I was just going to let them make their own queen. The second is a 10 frame medium and 10 frame deep hive. The medium is full of mixed brood, the deep has three frames drawn (one open, one capped, one food), 5 frames of foundation and a division board feeder. Last week I switched hive locations on this one with another weak nuc to boost the weak nuc. It might have taken it's toll on the population of the hive, although they still seem decent in size.

Mites - Last powdered sugar roll I did on the full size hive showed 2 mites. I've seen no DWV bees crawling around (inside or out of the hive). Last powdered sugar roll I did was about a month ago. This hive was caught from a swarm in May, and had a few splits taken since. Egg laying slowed down considerably until three weeks ago when I began feeding 1:1 to boost development, which it did.

Feeding - I've been feeding all hives 1:1 for 3-4 weeks now. I know my numbers are low, so I'm trying to get them to build up a bit. I tried feeding pollen patties, and the SHB turned it into a hot mess. Even though I only fed about 1/4 the size of a dollar bill patty. I stayed away from feeding pollen since then (this year) and they appear to have plenty of pollen stores available, so I'm less concerned with that. I have noticed that the hives have started taking less and less of the 1:1 in the past week or so. It's a 1.5 gal division board feeder, and initially they were consuming all of it in about 3 days. It slowed down to about a week, and as of today they consumed half of it in one week. Could be because goldenrod is (supposedly) starting to bloom. Could be due to lethargy or some disease.

I was planning on waiting to treat for bees if the mite numbers went up and the temps went down. I was planning on using MAQS on the full hives, Apiguard on the nucs that need help.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> are you thinking about sending some samples in?


I wasn't planning on it. If I could get an ID and get it gone, I'd be happy. If not, I'll call the inspector to come ID himself. If he wants to send samples in, he can.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood. gosh man, they're not making it easy for you. good luck.


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## johnth78 (May 26, 2012)

think I'd go with sacbrood myself


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

From your description, especially the yellowish look and the orientation in the cells, it sounds like EFB. Treatment recommendations are to treat w/ Terramycin and to requeen. But if this is a weak colony, I don't know if requeening will bring it back from the brink. You may have to combine what you have w/ a stronger colony. If for nothing else other than to protect the equipment from wax moth and SHB.

Best wishes.

ps: sacbrood appears as a larvae in a papery waterfilled sack. If one stuck it w/ a toothpick it would break apart. I didn't see or read anything which suggests that to me.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Lol, ask 10 beekeepers, get 12 answers. I thought about making this thread a poll, I should have 

So far, we've got:
1. Possible PMS
2. Not AFB
3. Possible EFB 
4. Sacbrood
5. Sounds like EFB


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And a sounds like EFB.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

psfred said:


> If there are brown, rubbery scales in the bottom of old cells (and also on the bottom board), it's likely European Foul brood.


No rubbery brown scales on the bottom board, but the closes thing I've seen are in photo number 1 there is a cell at 6 o'clock, and in photo number 3 there is a cell at 10 o'clock (but closer to the center). Both have dried out substances that resemble pollen, but are somewhat loose in the cell, and not compacted like pollen, which leads me to believe it is not but dried up remains of brood of some sort. Are these the scales you were talking about?



sqkcrk said:


> From your description, especially the yellowish look and the orientation in the cells, it sounds like EFB.


That's what I thought as well. Only time I've seen EFB in the past was early spring, and every time it's appeared the bees just cleaned it up.

With the nuc, the queen was killed, and they are in the process of re-queening themselves. The break in the brood cycle may be enough to take care of them and give them the opportunity to clean it up. If it's still apparent after they've been around, I might re-queen or just combine.

With the stronger hive, I'm reluctant to re-queen, because she just started laying heavily, in response to the 1:1 feeding. It's tough to let a good layer (even though she has EFB) hit the hive tool. But it may be all that I can do.

Do you think their growing reluctance to take the 1:1 is related?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That could be from their weak population I suspect.


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

Pick up some duramycine (duramycine 10) at the local feed store (should be around 7.00) and mix with one bag of powdered sugar. Dust a teaspoon twice a week for six-9 weeks.  This suppresses the disease until all the infected bees are dead and gone. You should see this mess go away after a week. This stuff spreads so I would dust everything in the yard. Catch it early and keep treating until the hive has enough healthy brood to be able to keep the hive clean after you stop treathing. I have it in 13 nucs in the same yard right now but have turned the corner after a a couple of weeks of treatment. This is the best writeup on the pathology of efb that I have seen. http://www.beedata.com/data2/pam_foul_brood.html although the writer of the article is pessimistic about the possibilities of curing the disease with antibiotic treatments.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Specialkayme said:


> I wasn't planning on it. If I could get an ID and get it gone, I'd be happy. If not, I'll call the inspector to come ID himself. If he wants to send samples in, he can.


Why wouldn't you send a sample in? Are your arms broken?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

It is EFB.

Jean-Marc


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

jean-marc said:


> It is EFB.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Yup, and nothing atypical, just plain efb by the looks of it.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Did you all Know that this is a 2012 thread?


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Tim B said:


> http://www.beedata.com/data2/pam_foul_brood.html


I can not connect through this link.
Some good images of EFB here: http://beeinformed.org/2013/04/european-foulbrood-efb-identification/
Good luck Specialkayme.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Great link Eduardo.


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