# Is it to late for splits



## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

no it is not too late. you will need to feed probably.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I disagree with mathesonequip's answer. It is too late in some areas (mine for example) though where you are you are is probably ok. Use a mated queen and put the feed to 'em hard. Why are you splitting now? If to increase colony count you are risking neither being well prepared for winter. You may want to give it a try and be prepared to recombine this fall.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

mr. dewey's answer is good. it is my understanding that mr. palmer [northeast of me about 3 hours near quebec] does his splits for winter nucs in mid july. in georgia you have a little more time. andrew is correct, start with mated queens. i have 2 queens sitting on the table by me now, they are going to split a hive that has a poorly performing queen, why she has not been superceded yet is the question?? so i am going to do it.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Define split please. In my opinion, it is too late for the heavily-promoted "walk away" technique where the colony is expected to raise an emergency queen. However, it is not too late for a mated queen introduction.

Consider a simple model of hive population in these two scenario.


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

Like stated above, it depends on where and what you want to do with it? I will take frames with eggs, brood and bees in July from a strong good laying queen hive and make up nucs to raise queens and take queen cells to requeen older queens and replace weaker queens. Sometimes i have to feed heavy to build them up for winter, it depends on the fall flow and your location.JMO


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> Define split please. QUOTE]
> 
> Oh so true.


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## Jake Owens (May 10, 2016)

Take my five strongest hives. Taking a couple frames of brood, one of pollen and two of honey. Take old queen and put in nuc, get new mated queen and put in the original 10 frame hive. Feed all hives syrup until flow starts and probably feed a little during flow. 

I have a commercial guy close by, he does a large amount of split in early January. He claims out 95 percent success rate. 

I appreciate all comments, thanks Jake Owens


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Jake Owens said:


> I have a decent fall flow starting in a month give or take a little.


What sort of nectar producing plants will be blooming in a month?


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## Jake Owens (May 10, 2016)

Mainly cotton first and then Goldenrod


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

GA and our climate is much the same.
Over here we have the summer Goldenrod blooming already!
Yes, it is possible to feed the split nuc into a strong one. I'm making
the after the solstice new queens now for my splits. It is possible if you have a good Autumn flow.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I've done walk-a-ways as late as late August with success. If drawn comb is used, it's very doable and I'm a bit further north than you are. I think last year I did some the first week of September, but that was cutting it pretty close. Drawn combs make it easier to do late in the season splits.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Jake Owens said:


> Mainly cotton first and then Goldenrod


You may have a different variety of goldenrod than we do. In fifteen years I've only smelled the fragrance of curing goldenrod one time....and then only in a couple of yards. Can't speak to cotton.
If you split expect to feed heavily. And take precautions to avoid robbing.
Good luck.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

JWChesnut said:


> Define split please. In my opinion, it is too late for the heavily-promoted "walk away" technique where the colony is expected to raise an emergency queen. However, it is not too late for a mated queen introduction.
> 
> Consider a simple model of hive population in these two scenario.
> View attachment 26487
> ...


I am not exactly sure what these charts are supposed to be showing. Mainly no idea what Total Colony is supposed to mean. and not sure how Total colony could possibly increase as the bee population seems to be decreasing.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

jake..to increase your total yields and strengthen your apiary, split your weaker hives , use better queens [up-grade when you split]. put supers on the strong hives. manage the mite situation before it is a major problem.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

RayMarler said:


> I've done walk-a-ways as late as late August with success. If drawn comb is used, it's very doable and I'm a bit further north than you are. I think last year I did some the first week of September, but that was cutting it pretty close. Drawn combs make it easier to do late in the season splits.


I must clarify that this was done to make up over wintering nucs. I get drone production in September and October also, so queens do get mated that late in the year.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> I am not exactly sure what these charts are supposed to be showing. Mainly no idea what Total Colony is supposed to mean. and not sure how Total colony could possibly increase as the bee population seems to be decreasing.


Veteran bees = bees introduced to splits (die off at 1-3% rate)
Brood = new hatches from introduced capped larvae (die off at 0.5%)
Total Bees = emerging brood from queen + Veteran + brood

The key point: a walk away won't see it first cohort of emergence until day 46 or later. A mated-queen nuc will see its first emergence about day 28. The difference in days to first new bees is immense.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

The key point: a walk away won't see it first cohort of emergence until day 46 or later. A mated-queen nuc will see its first emergence about day 28. The difference in days to first new bees is immense.[/QUOTE]

The simple walkaway commits all of the split bees on day one, unlike raising queens separately. The cutdown split really does not commit more bees any earlier than queen rearing. The # of queens is much more unpredictable, however if you are looking for only a few you are most likely going to get them.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

On a new split give them a mated queen.
Then place the hive in the position of a previous growing hive now had moved over.
Give the new split a frame or 2 of the cap broods from another growing hive. Don't forget to
feed them the patty subs, syrup or honey water and a pollen/nectar frame. 
The queen will have a very good chance of establishing herself through the Autumn flow.
Who else have a better split idea?


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