# Graft on Pollen frames--2 year results are in



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

You ought to document your method and the results, then to talk with Randy Oliver about running it as a scientific experiment. You may well be onto something good.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, KC. The cells result is in just like my previous cell experiment they
form the big long healthy stocky base cells right on the pollen/nectar frames. All cells are 
cap as of yesterday. For sure they will be very well fed because the developing larvae are huge.
So I did not want to wait until day 10 to move them to their mating nucs. Because I have to even out
the bees a bit today I made up the queen castle mating nucs for them. 
At this rate I'll need more bee gears to house them in. Made the frame parts all by myself using a hand held grinder
and a skillsaw. All are on the narrow frames except the bee wax foundation I bought. 
During our summer dearth now that they are able to make these large 1"+ cells is a miracle.
I think it has to do with the method I use rather than the bees in a yearly dearth cycle. Someone complaint here
about the season for the small cells they made in a dearth. Now only if they know about this method to use then they'll have
the larger cells. Combine this method with my non-graft frame that you simple pluck out the plastic cell cups to be place on these pollen/nectar frames, the result may be incredible. I have high expectation for these vsh queens once they're mated. If only 4 queens made it to laying I'll be very happy this time! 


Big vsh cap cells on pollen/necatar frames:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

An update:

So finally I saw 2 mated and return virgin queens. Both are the
darker queens. Then I found one today with a lighter Italian color just like
her vsh mom. A bit surprised but not much since there is a 50/50 chance 
that one will come out to be lighter color. Wish me luck that this one will 
return safely after her mating flights too. Summer time is the best time to get these
big well fed queens going right on the pollen frames. After a brood break with a
newly mated queen they will lay through our summer dearth here. And just in time for
an Autumn harvest leading to the winter time. Pollen frame works folks! Give it a try.
The next step is to get these vsh drones to mate with my Cordovan graft queens. Let's see if I
can make some vsh Cordovan bees too. The bee world is quite interesting with many areas yet to be explore!


Yellow vsh virgin:


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Pro-
Did you collect results for two years?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes I did. 
The results are bigger better strong laying queens.
All the queen pics I posted here so far are from the pollen frames raised queens.
My next step is to put a Cordovan queen inside the non-graft frame for some
golden queens on the pollen frames. Do you know what is the advantage of using the pollen
frames?


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

beepro said:


> Yes I did.
> The results are bigger better strong laying queens.
> All the queen pics I posted here so far are from the pollen frames raised queens.
> My next step is to put a Cordovan queen inside the non-graft frame for some
> ...


Ok. I'm reading the post and from how the title and post was written I thought you would have two years of data which showed this methodology makes better queens. I don't know what the advantage of using the pollen frames as you describe. I think it can make sense, on a sideline. What do queen cells need? Lots of nurse bees. Ample resources. So placing them directly on useable pollen takes care of part of that. That's cool. Pro- if they are bigger and better- then what makes you make that statement other than the pictures?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I make that statement because we all know a well fed larva will make
a great laying queen. Comparing the cell bar queen cells with the pollen frame
queen cells, just the size and RJ deposited is a big difference already. The best part is these are
the cells that the hive going through our summer dearth made. Big cells and summer dearth!
You should see the strength of these fast moving virgin queens. They will dominate over the
mating nuc like no tomorrow. I added 4 more frames of bees to a newly mated queen nuc hive and they
did not balled her or rejected her. So the queen scent is quite strong indeed. The return rate and early mating will
guarantee a successful colony later on. They took their mating flights 5 days after emerging and within one week after that started laying. You can do a little bee experiment to see how a pollen frame raised queen compared to a cell bar raised queen. The RJ deposited really makes all the difference. And what else can be better than the food source right next to the developing cells with all the young nurse bees around? You be the judge once you've experienced it yourself. 
Oh, don't forget about the solid brood pattern and a potential breeder too.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

Speaking in hypotheticals then. I'd think a well formed queen is just that, a well formed queen. So genetics and mating are then by default the difference makers


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It is hard to say, dtr.
Why then a commercial bee farm bought queen is such a small size compared to my
pollen raised queen? Their size is just slightly less than half of my own homemade queens. 
That is when I took the bought queen to graft some daughters from. How else can you explain the difference then?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beepro said:


> It is hard to say, dtr.
> Why then a commercial bee farm bought queen is such a small size compared to my
> pollen raised queen? Their size is just slightly less than half of my own homemade queens.
> That is when I took the bought queen to graft some daughters from. How else can you explain the difference then?


Small sized when you get them out of the cage after being penned up and not laying for a few days vs. one walking around sticking it's rear end in cells? I don't think putting the graft on pollen has anything to do with it. It's about being well fed and well stocked with young bees. Same song and dance for all queen rearing. Now they certainly need pollen to feed queens well enough, but I think location of that pollen is low on the list. But there might be something to be said about having a strong colony raise a single cell. But that's not practical except in an extremely limited capacity.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Where is the comparative data you've collected? This = best leaves a lot out. What was the setup and results of the control group? Without a control one could easily say the difference is the weather, the flow, a lower population of competing wasps, who knows...

A common setup is to have a pollen frame, then cell bar frame, then pollen frame or nectar frame. This puts resources a bee space away. With cells on the frame its nearly the same, especially once they consume the adjacent cells. There's more to this than a few good result pictures, need more apples to apple's data.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

DrJeseuss said:


> A common setup is to have a pollen frame, then cell bar frame, then pollen frame or nectar frame. This puts resources a bee space away. With cells on the frame its nearly the same, especially once they consume the adjacent cells. There's more to this than a few good result pictures, need more apples to apple's data.


I agree. What could be the advantage of having the cells attached to the pollen comb, over having the pollen a bee space away. I think none.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

dtrooster said:


> Speaking in hypotheticals then. I'd think a well formed queen is just that, a well formed queen. So genetics and mating are then by default the difference makers





beepro said:


> I make that statement because we all know a well fed larva will make
> a great laying queen. Comparing the cell bar queen cells with the pollen frame
> queen cells, just the size and RJ deposited is a big difference already. The best part is these are
> the cells that the hive going through our summer dearth made. Big cells and summer dearth!
> ...


Pro- these are statements, not founded by an experiments, they are not results.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

In one of M Palmer's you tube vids, he put the pollen into the pollen frame for the 
bees to eat. So this idea stem from his inspiration. 
JW, when you have 20 colonies you can make a bee bomb to house your developing cells.
My little experiment of raising the developing cells right on the pollen frames will use the least bee resources available
in the shortest amount of time to make many bigger well fed cells. Now comparing to the cell bar graft larvae versus the
pollen raised cells, it is clear that the pollen raised cells will have more RJ deposited over night and all the way until the
cells are cap. As to having the 2 years data to back up my claim, I really do not collect any data only my own pics and
observation over time. You all can prove whether or not my method is better than the cell bar graft method by raising your
own cells to compare the 2. If you don't like it then it is fine with me. I just enhance the pollen frame method a bit by placing
the cells on these frames directly. The pics already proved my point unless you like to see something else. 
For these well fed queens, they laid large thick milky eggs into the cells already. That I have the proof here with the recent return
and laying new queens from this week. Now whether or not there is a correlation between a well fed queen with thicker eggs or the
thinner white eggs of a non-well fed queen is still questionable. 
To get the larger data to prove my point, this experiment need to be scientifically tested and documented. Since I cannot do this being
a small operation still, I need the members here to use this method for a comparison of their own. You can see whether or not this method
can benefit your queen rearing operation. It is that simple!


p.S. The plastic cell cups can be easily pry off using a small sharp razor blade. The remaining cell(s) on the pollen frame can be move
with the frame directly into the mating nuc. I use standard deep frames. You will also noticed that the cell wall on the cap cells have thicker comb and
larger thicker cell tip than the bar cell graft method. Also compare the rate of the RJ filled up overnight and at the 2nd day interval. Obviously the cells are longer too 1.5" +. I snap pics to compare the 2 cell raised method.
My next little cell experiment is to take the non-graft cells larvae/eggs directly on the pollen frames to see if there is a difference on their development and the subsequent laying pattern and egg color of these new queens. Can the pollen frames cell raised method be use in the Spring, summer and Autumn too? Do they all have the same effect on the developing larvae and queens? I already have my answers here over 2 seasons. Now it is your turn to discover it for yourself.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Hope you have an open mind when it comes to the queen rearing improvement process.
I'm sorry but my newly mated queen cannot stay in their mating nuc for long.
They are the really prolific laying machines. I have never handle any swarms before
so don't like that idea in a 5 frames nuc to evaluate the new queens either. They have
to prove themselves to be worthy otherwise off they go. So right after the queens are mated and verified that she's coming from a well fed well developed cell immediately she's got a pic tag on my camera. Then she will be transferred into an 8 or 10 frames deep hive for further
performance evaluation.
This will minimize her chance of swarming and comparing her colony development with her
other sisters over time. Could any of them maybe a potential future breeder? Often the carnis will be compared to the Cordovan queens to see if any difference under the same bee environment as I have both type of queens here. Under the same bee environment will the carnis grow faster than the Cordovan? Will any of them bee less affected by the mites?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Where are the side-by-side comparison pics of 'cell bar queens' and pollen frame queens? They look no bigger than any other queens you've posted.

Here's one of my cell-bar virgins, tell me how good of a queen she made:


Pic taken the day of emergence.



beepro said:


> In one of M Palmer's you tube vids, he put the pollen into the pollen frame for the
> bees to eat. So this idea stem from his inspiration.
> JW, when you have 20 colonies you can make a bee bomb to house your developing cells.
> My little experiment of raising the developing cells right on the pollen frames will use the least bee resources available
> in the shortest amount of time to make many bigger well fed cells.


I know exactly what you're talking about, he puts a pollen frame in next to his grafts so that the nurse bees have the food they need nearby. What you're proposing makes the pollen about 3/8" close to the nurse bees than if there was a pollen frame next to your cell bar.

What you've inadvertently done, probably, is in putting a less cells on a pollen frame... you've increased the nurse bee to queen cell ratio and thus created more well fed cells. Of course it takes far fewer bees to raise a cell or two than 20-30 in a cell builder. And then convinced yourself that it had to do with something entirely unrelated.

My opinion of course.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

hands down the largest most well fed queens I've ever seen are some of Lauri Millers queens, I call them gator tails......and FWIW....... she uses cell bars and an incubator.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> she uses cell bars and an incubator.


Yeah, but she puts a pollen frame in the incubator just in case, right?


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Just a few thoughts on queen size:

1. We all agree a well fed larva is needed to make a good queen. But a larva can only eat so much food. You could easy enough graft larva into cells that already contained a half inch of food and I know of no evidence that this produces a better queen. People have raised queens in the lab feeding them artificially and I know of no evidence that an over fed queen is a bit better than a normally fed queen. Those lab raised queens could be fed unlimited amounts of food and no one has ever claimed a benefit to my knowledge.

2. We have all heard stories about the little queen that was so small she could scoot right thru a queen excluder and yet she was an egg laying machine and kept it up for three years. So, size is not everything.

3. Size is very highly hereditable and very easy to select for. Look at dogs. They vary in adult weight by a factor of 100. Cows, sheep, chickens, turkeys, etc all have breeds that vary greatly in size. So, if big queens are so important why have not smart guys like Latshaw selected for lines that automatically produced over sized queens? After all, Joe is a smart fellow as demonstrated by his PhD, and highly motivated as making breeder queens is how he makes his living. The fact he has not selected for over sized queens is a pretty strong hint it is not that important.

4. The most strenuous thing a queen ever does is go on a mating flight. She has close to the same sized wings as a worker bee. You go making her extra big and is she still able to make a good mating flight and mate with 15 drones? Or is she going to come home after mating with only four or five due to exhaustion? Those mating flights are pretty strenuous. I have seen the occasional queen come back with tattered wings just like you see on an old worn out worker. If you have some over sized queen are you risking her not even making it back because of a little wing damage?

5. Carnies naturally have queens that tend to be slimmer than Italians quite often. Yet Carnie queens are very productive and able to lay lots of eggs and make lots of honey. If size was so important no one would keep Carnies.

6. The size of any given queen can vary greatly depending on how much she is laying. Purchased queens are very often not much bigger than a worker when you get her. She may well have been in that cage two or three days and is not laying and has reduced her abdomen size greatly. Then introduce her and look at her two weeks later and she is far bigger and laying up a storm. You can not just look at a queens size and make any judgement at all if she is not laying in my opinion. And, if she is laying you can only make a weak judgement that probably is meaningless as often as not if she is normal size.

All in all I think over sized queens are probably over rated and not any improvement beyond what you get with a well fed normal sized queen. Any size difference seen likely is mainly a matter of genetics for body size and that may well not have a thing to do with how good she is. For example, how much pheromones she produces as she ages is very important. A big queen that is a poor pheromone producer is not going to be a good queen. It is highly unlikely that size has much at all to do with pheromone production as the two are governed by totally different genetics.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Good points Richard, and queens can shrink up when stressed and swell back up in a matter of minutes once they get some attention from attendants. I once saw it in a JP the beeman video, he had this little bitty queen he caught on a cutout and stuck her in the box in a queen clip and 10 min later she was swole up from being tended to.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I like to repeat this experiment again using the newly bought 
Cordovan queen. As long as you can get the 6 body sections on the
queen well fed and developed then she will be a good laying one. I just
put out another method to raise these queens using the least bee resources
available. Mine is an open flying foragers set up using Lauri's fly back
method too. We also need to compare the bee climate and environment that they
are in now. Unlike Iowa, we live in a semi-desert climate here. The after the solstice
queens are a lot different than the Spring raised queens that you have because of limited foraging
resources in our summer dearth here. As you can see, Soar's bee yard have lots of dry
grasses, the same environment that my bee yard is in 20 minutes away. So to get these great laying queens during our yearly summer dearth proved that my pollen frames raised queens work. You can continue to use the traditional cell bar method or use the pollen frames method as long as you are happy with your queens.
For the ones who have not yet raised these larger queens, this method is an alternative. It is that
easy to simply convert an existing hive into a cell builder and finisher using more pollen frames added. Good
thing that every hives I have have 2 pollen frames on either side of the hive. Removing one will not harm the
existing donor hive that you can return the pollen frame after the cells are cap if you want to.

I'm happy with their laying pattern and the larger thick milky eggs that they produced. 
These grafted queens was a last minute random larvae frame selection that I don't even have
the time to chose the larvae. I just let them chose the smallest larva to raise their own 
queens from. Happy with the results so far after 2 years of experimenting. 


This one is from the pollen frames queen.
So tell me is this a mated or still a virgin queen?:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

A new update:

So last evening I went ahead and grafted 35 cells. All the bottom cell cups in the
foam holes got cleaned out. Now I know not all bees like the foam bars. They prefer the
cups on the wooden bar that had 13 accepted out of 16. These are all from the Cordovan queen I
recently bought. Given the chance the bees will select the pin size tiniest larvae to grow. In this case they have.
I have to use a magnify glass in order to see and scoop up the pin size larva with a half-cut rounded edge toothpick.
I'm suppose to pluck them off the cell bar and transfer them into the pollen frames this morning but
the day got busy all day long. So now I just finish transplanting them onto the 4 pollen frames all crowded with
the young big fat nurse bees. In a 5 frames set up, 3 more bee frames got brushed into the finisher/builder from another overcrowding
nuc hive. They're almost like a bee bomb now! What do you think these cells will look like once they're all capped?


Accepted Cordovan cells:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

An update:


Well, all cells are already capped. Today is the 7th days (7/5-7/11 counting from the 1st day egg hatched) since I grafted the cells. There are many healthy long and large cells extending passed the 1.5"+ mark. All are RJ filled beyond the normal bar grafted cells. I'm sure that the remaining RJ left over after the queen has emerged will be 1/2" more on the bottom of the cell. This will ensure a well fed developing larva. Again the pollen frames raised cells have never fail me so far. The accepted cells are only ~2" apart on the pollen frames. This time I have reduced the pollen frames to only 3 for developing 10 well fed cells out of 16 accepted initially. Always make more cells than what you need. Will be making up the mating nucs tomorrow to house these cells. Just cut along the edges to loosen up the sides and pry under the plastic cup to remove the cell. It is that easy with a sharp small razor blade. I have also check on the pollen frames donor hive. They're all healthy and 
raising the young larvae without any side affects. Will be returning the pollen frames back to them after cutting the cells out. Cannot wait to see what these queens will look like. Too bad I can only upload 4 pics at a time. 


Batch of large cells on pollen frames:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So tonight I put the cells in their mating nucs.
Each deep box is divided into 3 sections with 3 frames of bees and the cap broods. Then 
in the middle of the frame is a planted cell from the cut out. I use a small sharp razor blade to
cut along the edges of the cell and then use a small flat headed screw driver to pry on the plastic
cup to loosen the cell. Two fell out of the frame. One landed on the bottom board and the other one
landed on the top bar of the frame. Not sure if they will be o.k. or not. Will see after next week when they
emerged from the cell.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

An update:


Well, today is queen emerging day at ~16 days later (on 8/10 when cap--8/17.) Found 2 virgin queens in the mating nuc
hives check. One is a golden Cordovan almost reddish yellow with a small head and slender body. Either she's one of
those cells that got drop during the transfer process or maybe a genetic thing. The sister queen is
a lot bigger and almost ghostly like in appearance. I thought that the Cordovan is supposed to have the golden color.
She has a bigger head and more plump abdomen than her sister though. Do you think she has a small or bigger head?
She must got the vsh genetics mixed in mutts. Good news when I can incorporate some vsh into my apiary too.
I'm happy with the result so far on the pollen frames raised queens. More to come later on!


Almost ghostly like queen:


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Her head looks pretty tiny. inch:


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Pin-Head if you ask me.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

More virgin pics:

The commercial operation I got these queens from only keep 2 types of bees. One is the vsh and the other is the Cordovan.
Eventually, over time the Cordovan will have some of the vsh mixed in. As you can see the pollen frames raised queens are
a lot bigger and with a stronger queen scent. Workers surrounded her within a day after emerging like a mated queen already. She's not runny like the other virgin queens. Someday I will confirm that a well fed queen will have the stronger queen scent too. These are the late summer queens raised during the yearly dearth here. Imagine on the early Spring time when they are gathering lots of pollen on the frames. Another good reason to graft the Cordovan queens mated with the local carnis drones to easily identify the queen on a hive check. 
As for the small or bigger queen head, it is all about genetics. Somehow the commercial queens over time will develop the smaller
head than the local mutt queens. Still, I'm tempted to make a narrower queen cup to house the developing larva to see if a slender body
will develop along with the small size head too. I've seen a watermelon turn square when put inside a sq mold early in the fruit developing stage. And a ripen pear will turn into a baby human figure when the fruit is encapsulated in a clear plastic mold. Wonder if the queen will be the same too?



Virgin vsh queen if not a Cordovan:


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## Outdoor N8 (Aug 7, 2015)

Why do you feel the graft to pollen frame produces " bigger and stronger queen scent" queens than a regular graft bar placed adjacent to the pollen frame? 
What is the variance that equates a better feed nurse bee, thereby a better feed queen?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Fewer cells per cell builder I would guess.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I cannot answer you completely. 
All I can see is that on the cell bar the bees formed a cluster over the cells. 
On the pollen frames, yes the cells are spaced out a bit. The young nurse bees while
feeding on the bee bread also feeding the cells more frequently depositing large amount of RJ at the
same time. This is the only difference I can observed on the cell variance. Another noticeable difference is
the overnight RJ deposited can be double compared to the cell bar cells. It could be that they are pushing the
RJ level up while on the pollen frames at a convenience level. On the cell bar cells sometimes I don't get the
1.5" + but on the pollen frames I do. And a well fed queen will be a better laying queen that we know of.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

beepro said:


> This one is from the pollen frames queen.
> So tell me is this a mated or still a virgin queen?:


 
Another update:

This pollen frames raised queen is loaded with eggs. Notice how big and plump she is.
Has a very gentle disposition and not the runny type queen. She gives off many gentle worker
bees that never buzzed too loud on a hive check. Has the Cordovan genetics mixed in too.
Another one is the Cordovan genetics pollen frames raised queen. This one is a bit
chubby than the first one. Though she is a good laying one. This is the almost ghost like
color one that I mentioned before. Both are laying good pattern and is breeder potential too. Let's see
if they will overwinter well here. The after the solstice graft queens mated with the local carnis drones 
will have many good features to keep. So when you have doubts about the pollen frames raised queens
during the summer dearth then think again. Perhaps give it a try with one or 2 rounds of the pollen frames
raised cells yourself to discover the benefits. More virgins will take their mating flights within this or next week!


After the solstice, long and plump, pollen frames raised queens:


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

They smell so strong I can smell them through the attachments!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Michael Palmer said:


> Fewer cells per cell builder I would guess.


I think this makes the most sense on the why. 

I do like the idea for a TBH situation, as it provides an easy means to place grafts without construction of a special homemade cell bar. I will try it come Spring.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Sure, choose a strong old pollen TB frame to stick the accepted cells on.
I'm sure you will be happy with the cells result. And make sure they are 
queen less and brood less too. This way all RJ is focus on the developing cells.
JW, why don't you try it out too using 5 pollen frames and populate with lots of young
nurse bees to make a bee bomb to house these developing cells. Put 20-30 accepted cells in there to see
what you will get. I say 6 cells per pollen frame will do. I will be improving on this method too. Let's see
how many pollen frames I can get during the early Spring time when things are blooming here. If you have an open
minds, you will see far far away! Wish someone would of told me this on my first year of queen rearing.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> They smell so strong I can smell them through the attachments!



You must be one sensitive drone! LOL!


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

beepro said:


> . I've seen a watermelon turn square when put inside a sq mold early in the fruit developing stage. And a ripen pear will turn into a baby human figure when the fruit is encapsulated in a clear plastic mold. Wonder if the queen will be the same too?
> 
> 
> 
> Virgin vsh queen if not a Cordovan:


Works on cats too untill fbi shut them down but you can still see from the wayback machine https://web.archive.org/web/20010202065200/http://bonsaikitten.com/


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

That's sad! No kittens for me.
Today I found another new Cordovan queen mated and laying.
She even laid in one of the queen cups too. Tried to take some pics but
too many bees surrounding the queen and cup. Figured that might be my
graft frame later on. Every time a queen laid an egg the workers went wild over
her deposited cell. Now I know how a queen can lay inside a cell cup. Next year it's going to be fun establishing the many drones nuc hives around here thanks to one member's hint. I will try my best to screened out the carnis drones if possible from the DCAs. This is the main reason for grafting the newly bought Cordovan queen.
Initially the Cordovan queen has a smaller genetics trait (slender body and a smaller head) but after raising the larvae on the pollen frames the queen came out larger and more prolific. Is this another way to enhance the bee's genetics? I'm not really sure. I like the end results though. Notice how
her color has enhanced too to a reddish orange. That I liked!


One more Cordovan queen added:


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

What's a "drone nuc hive"?


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

If it is what I've heard about, the idea is that you have a frame of large drone cells. When it is capped you move it, and the mites that will be in it, to a drone hive. All your drone frames go there until they emerge. Since the drone hive is not a production hive, you treat it often since you don't need to worry about your honey. Mite populations are consistently carried to the drone hive where they are killed.

I am skeptical. Sounds like a great way to spread infections. Skeptical ≠ Cynical. I'd have to see some evidence or a study.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

beepro said:


> That's sad! No kittens for me.
> Today I found another new Cordovan queen mated and laying.
> She even laid in one of the queen cups too. Tried to take some pics but
> too many bees surrounding the queen and cup. Figured that might be my
> ...


Those are pretty queens beepro


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Bees like to be on comb. Perhaps embedding cell cups into a comb is better than having them all hanging out in the open on a cell bar frame. 

I suggest someone run a builder and embed 30 grafted cell cups into a comb of pollen and stores, and run a test comparison at the same time of a cell bar builder with a comb of pollen on one side of the cups and a comb of open nectar on the other. Run a real test this way and see what happens. It may very well be that the cells raised in comb turn out a little better than the ones raised in the open hanging of a cell bar. Or maybe not, but this reasoning seems to make sense to me.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

RayMarler said:


> Bees like to be on comb. Perhaps embedding cell cups into a comb is better than having them all hanging out in the open on a cell bar frame.
> 
> I suggest someone run a builder and embed 30 grafted cell cups into a comb of pollen and stores, and run a test comparison at the same time of a cell bar builder with a comb of pollen on one side of the cups and a comb of open nectar on the other. Run a real test this way and see what happens. It may very well be that the cells raised in comb turn out a little better than the ones raised in the open hanging of a cell bar. Or maybe not, but this reasoning seems to make sense to me.


I have done it both ways in the same hive. I see no difference in quality of queen produced.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Or you can just slather on a good glob of soft fortified protein sub. Right on top the frame of grafts. I actually never even pay attention to the location of natural pollen frames in my cell builders. I feed my recipes along with natural feed collection and they seem to do OK.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

That works Lauri, I just put some right on top of the jz bz bars, it's all gone by the time the cells get drawn out, figure it might help them access the cups better too.


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