# Winter 2011/2012 deadout Poll.



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Here is a place to poll deadout hives for the winter. Please record your info as accurately as possible, please feel free to make additional comments, like your Location and suspected cause of death, by replying to the thread.

You can make multiple choices for different hives.


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## A'sPOPPY (Oct 13, 2010)

What about 0 of 25, home grown queens and splits


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

A'sPOPPY said:


> What about 0 of 25, home grown queens and splits


I am planning to run a second poll on successful wintering, but it can't be done until spring for obvious reasons


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## Hawkster (Apr 16, 2010)

1 dead out out of 15 so keeping my fingers crossed !


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

bluegrass said:


> I am planning to run a second poll on successful wintering, but it can't be done until spring for obvious reasons


Here in my corner of the world it's been less like winter and more like an extended fall. So far no losses. Actually had an increase when high winds blew tree down on a fence on one of my larger neighbors place(1800 acres). The base had a hive in it and they couldn't remove the tree from their fence becuase they were afraid of the bees. I cut the base of the tree off, got as much of the comb as possible and drummed the bees up(first time - really cool - read about it but never had the opportunity to do it before) out of the trunk and into my hive. 

The sun is hotter this winter as evidenced by all of the solar spot/flare activity. We've had a bunch of rain so far and the bluebonnets(AKA blue lupine) are going great gangbusters. They're still small but there's a bunch of them coming up(literally cannot take a step in my pastures without stepping on one). The cattle will eat the tops off the juvenile plants which stimulates more blooms/seed heads. If the rains continue they'll be a huge buildup crop with the air so sweet it will be overwhelming(sometimes makes you sick). Bees will be coming in with maroon pollen sacks, full from bluebonnets. Every really good honey season I"ve ever had started out like this. Don't want to get my hopes up but can't help it.


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## Ryan Elder (May 23, 2011)

This is good that you're doing this poll, it will definitely help gather some good data.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Ryan Elder said:


> This is good that you're doing this poll, it will definitely help gather some good data.


I hope to gather similar data on successfully wintered colonies, and merge the data on a spread sheet. Obviously package bees are going to out rate everything just given the fact that they are produced by the 10s of 1000s where as every other type is drastically less... But hopefully we will get some good data in the end.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

You're assuming we lost any this winter.
3 hives 2 nucs most with home raised queens. NWS/Russian/? mixed genetics. One 2 year old russian queen from Noble apiaries.
All survived.

Winter hear is technically over. next month is queen rearing month.


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

1 dead out of 12 so far. It was on weak side going into winter so not really too much surprise.


Mike


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Interesting that splits/swarms are out running packages by almost 2-1. I did not expect that. We will see if it holds as the winter progresses.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

One problem with the poll is we cannot vote for multiple losses unless they are in different catagories

So if you have lost three hives and all are from the same category please post the category and number so I can tally them later.

Thanks


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## Ryan Elder (May 23, 2011)

Ok, I lost two packages, I already voted for 1 though


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## Hartz (Sep 4, 2010)

Checked on the bees today since it was in the 50's here. This is my first year trying nucs (Nucs w/5 deep frames I made up @ the end of July)) As of today I have lost 2 out of 21.The rest look good but we still have some winter ahead. Keepin my fingers crossed!

Hartz


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

lost 1 of three nucs to nosema. other 6 hives going strong (carni, italians, and mixed). Italians and hybrid carnis are already eating out the mountain camp sugar pile i have up top - put it on all the hives in early winter. Sugar cakes in the nucs - they seem to like those. Not taking any chances with starvation this year. Good thing as I got a message from the local bee club to check your hives up north as the warmer winter has increased consumption of stores!


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Hi All - Thought I'd stop in to say hello to the gang!

I thought packages would be the losers as well. Hope everyone is feeding or ready to feed - bees must have brood amondo and be burning through stores. Here brood usually starts the end of January but I suspect an early jump and more of it.

I know here in the Finger Lakes - had a huge locust flow this June - acutally pulled 2 supers from most hives. I think this may have helped packages get a jump. Late splits and swarms were doomed by the absolute drought in July that pushed the Golden Rod back 3 weeks. Much Rain in September.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I was at my association meeting last night and everybody is a buzz about how great this winter is for the bees. I think it is going to prove disastrous in the north. If our bees start brooding up early and then we get a cold snap, or flowers bud early and than get hit by frost..... I shudder.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

But are the bees raising brood already? Jadczak told me this is the first year that he found no brood in January when he pulled bees to set up observation hives for ther Maine Farm Show. 

Last year and this winter are very similar here in Vermont with the 2009-2010 season. Bad weather and half a honey crop in thesummer. No Fall flow and tons of syrup fed. Warm winter followed and bees were in great condition in the spring, although light. Started feeding nucs fondant in Februaly, and production colonies in March. Colonies were very strong in May and made a 108 lb avg in 2010. Little feeding that Fall.

I'm seeing the same thing now, without the necessary feeding in February. I've checked four yards, and one nuc yard. I've found one dead colony. Had a medium sized cluster in the top box, and not one drop of feed. I consider this operator error combined with PPB. Also found one colony with four mediums that built up from left-overs from extra mating nuc bees and wintered queen. They had a cluster of seven frames in the top box, and light. I added a body of honey I was saving. Again, operator error in weighing or feeding. The nucs were all but one clustered below honey. None dead. The production colonies had the whole range of cluster sizes, as I would expect, and were in the top box in contact with honey. Couldn't see nuc cluster sizes but blowing down between frames and estimating by buzz, I'd say they're normal.

I'm confident the bees will be ok until March. I have to debate with my help if it's economical at this point to check every yard. We're going to wait until the end of the month. With yard sheets containing Fall weights, we know which yards to check first. 

So, all this means...especially those with a back yard apiary or a small number of colonies. Stop worrying about it. Go look at your bees. This notion you can't open an inner cover unless it's 50 and sunny and calm is wrong. The inner cover can be lifted up carefully, the cluster location observed, and note taken of honey stores and position. Can't see the cluster...they're below...and have honey above...no problem. If they're in the top box...as some colonies will be...are they in contact with honey, no problem. Have they got a good cluster? If you aren't sure about the feed, jab your hive tool into the edge of the cluster and see if it comes up with honey on it. 

It really is quick, only 10 or 15 seconds, and the bees won't hardly notice if it's cold. So what if 10 bees are lost. Better than losing the whole colony because you were afraid to open them. Next day it's not too nasty for you....go look.


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## guyross (Feb 18, 2011)

I lost 3 of 12. Two sub cumbered to new beekeeper syndrome. In the last one only the queen and some robbers were left in the hive. She she was on the bottom board barely moving. There were no dead bees on the bottom board.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Lost my 1st hive, feel bad cause they starved. They were a late June swarm that had early queen issues, only got them built up to two medium boxes with about 40 lbs of stores. Once I finally got this little hive queen right in early August she/they really took off producing brood continuously like crazy though the fall and winter without a brood break. Went out to mountain camp them yesterday and I was too late, won’t make that mistake again. My 14 other hives look good so far and have good reserves. 

Don


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## oldreliable (Jan 29, 2011)

lost one split I made last summer. I lost one 5 frame nuc that was my fault. This nuc was made up with a queen cell culled from a walk away split last summer and it went gangbusters..decide to add a couple of nuc boxes on top with foundation last fall and the colony thrived and stored goldenrod honey. I thought I would wrap it and see if it would winter over. Well, did not expect to find it dead yesterday but did. Here is what happen, I forgot that when the second box was full of honey I added another box with foundation only..BUT..I placed it in the middle of the brood box and filled super as the late honey flow continued. when I prepped it for winter I did not know they NEVER drew any comb out. So, I put a barrier between the stores and the cluster..starving them  

I am sure this nuc would have been a good hive come spring. The queen was in the cluster and capped brood about a baseball size under it..

Always check and never assume. Learner a lesson


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## BoilerJim (Apr 15, 2011)

I lost 1 out of 4 hives. The one that died was from a Georgia 3 lb package I bought in the spring. *It was my BEST honey producer*. It was also the only hive I did not use a screened bottom board. So, perhaps that is a reason it died or perhaps it didn't have northern genetics to survive the cold like my remaining three hives???

My 3 remaining hives are 2 were from northern feral swarms I caught and one was from a northern nuc I purchased in the spring.

Jim


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## jeb532 (Feb 16, 2011)

Lost 1 out of 4. It was from a cutout done in early July 2011. 2 hives doing very well (a BWeaver package and a feral swarm capture). One just puttering along (a merge of two cutouts)


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

BoilerJim said:


> So, perhaps that is a reason it died or perhaps it didn't have northern genetics to survive the cold like my remaining three hives???


That is too convenient and easy of an explanation. If it is still intact do the thorough inspection and take samples and send them off to the lab. Strive to find out the actual reason for death, that information will serve you well in the future.


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## Ryan Elder (May 23, 2011)

Maybe it would be a good idea for this to be stickied so it doesn't get "lost" behind all the other threads.


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## BradW (Mar 15, 2010)

Lost 1 out of 4. They were a bit small going into winter and I wasn't sure they would make it. They were my best honey producer for 2011 from an overwintered colony, but didn't make it.


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

The survey looks like it is shaping up as a pretty good argument against splitting - I wonder how many were 'late' splits vs. 'early' splits.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have passed the point of the latest death in my memory for this year. I've lost 1 of 11, all treatment-free. It was a swarm I caught in the spring of 2010 so it was also previously over wintered. It happened back in November, split cluster.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I am putting together a more in depth survey that can be distributed by email. Anybody who wants to participate in it can PM me an email address and I will forward it when complete. Also am looking for input on the data that should be included on the survey if anybody has ideas.

I want to put together a spread sheet in the end and will forward it back to everybody who participated.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Went into winter with 16 still have 16. Some were splits in the spring all others were 2 year or more queens but we had a very very mild winter so far. Ya need to also include NO dead outs.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

NDnewbeek said:


> The survey looks like it is shaping up as a pretty good argument against splitting - I wonder how many were 'late' splits vs. 'early' splits.


Yesterday, checked a yard of 34 nucs started in mid-July. Strong, light, 100% alive.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> Yesterday, checked a yard of 34 nucs started in mid-July. Strong, light, 100% alive.


Still have about 8 weeks though before I would count those chickens. Do you have winters with high losses or is your success rate fairly consistent?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Two things have surprised me so far about this poll.

1st being that packages are not way out in the lead.

And second is how close southern nucs vs local nucs are staying to each other. It may suggest that there isn't anything to the whole local survivor, proven stock sales pitch.


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Yesterday, checked a yard of 34 nucs started in mid-July. Strong, light, 100% alive.


I still have two nucs of four alive - that is the best I have done overwinter with nucs so far (50% survival). But then, this is only my second winter trying - so I am still on the steep part of the learning curve.

But I would think that a nuc made or split in the summer is different from a hive made from a split. My experience has been that when I split and try to make a hive - it never survives the winter. I think that it is because of the different natures of nucs and hives - nucs are smaller (in equipment, cluster and space), so perhaps they require less time to put up the necessary stores, build the necessary population, etc. A hive, being larger, might need more time - which could explain, in part, the trend in the survey.

Winters here are usually pretty rough. I don't split to make hives anymore - I just don't think that they have the time to set themselves up for winter (we have a fairly short summer here). The hives that make it through winter in my yards are the ones that are established BEFORE June. After that - I think that there just isn't enough time for them to get it together.

Now, I have made nucs as late as early July and have had a couple survive last winter. So, I DO think that overwintering nucs is a good strategy (I only wish that I were better at it). 

However, the survey seems to indicate that TIME might be an issue. Local nucs/Southern nucs/overwintered hives/packages all seem fairly close together and, as bluegrass points out, this seems strange after all we are told about the negatives of packages. But these categories all have one thing in common that splits and swarms do not share:

They are all generally started at the same TIME of the year, being early spring. Splits and swarms are generally established as hives later. The survey seems to suggest (at least to me) that the source of the bees in your full-sized hive is only secondary to the likelihood that they survive - more important is whether or not they have sufficient time to establish the hive.

Mike


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

What about the source of the queen? Are all these splits walkaways? I did about 2/3 walkaway splits, 1/3 splits with a bought queen last year. Where did those queens come from? I think we're missing some data here.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

bluegrass said:


> Two things have surprised me so far about this poll. 1st being that packages are not way out in the lead.
> And second is how close southern nucs vs local nucs are staying to each other. It may suggest that there isn't anything to the whole local survivor, proven stock sales pitch.


While the effort is nice for a broad brush stroke, technically there are a lot of issues with this poll. Most importantly there are no definitions about queen source so it unclear what assumptions folks are making when they answer. What is the queen sources for the splits? The overwintered hives? Are these made from formerly packaged bees with the queen that came with he package or something else? Second it is unknown if folks are entering multiple times, assuming that deadouts are from multiple types of colonies. There are a few recent "citizen science" SARE projects and a few from local bee clubs that looked at this issue of survival by how the hive was started (nuc, package) as well as queen source, and they all show better survival by colonies with regional and/or hygienic queens over those with queens from packaged bees, but even with those, beekeeper management, feed, available forage, and weather all factor in to the analysis and interpreting results.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

Lost both first-year colonies started from packages last April. Both had queen (not laying in one hive, supercedure by a poor layer in the other) and mite issues all summer, and I didn't get a fall treatment in due to chaos with a failed requeening attempt and ultimately combining the two hives. Large bee die-off in late November, with high mite levels (22% infection). Treated with oxalic dribble which killed almost 100% of the mites, but the small cluster has been dwindling ever since. Moisture issues as well despite a top entrance and SBB, and about half of the honey/syrup stores were uncapped going into winter and fermented in the hive. Evidence of dysentery, which may be nosema (though a sample came back negative) or simply a result of fermented stores and inability to fly out with the cluster so small. Currently down to about 60 bees and the queen with no brood; will almost certainly be dead in a week or two. Still about 40 lbs of capped honey in the hive, in contact with the cluster, though pollen may have been in short supply.

Things I will do differently this year:
1. Multiple sources of bees and queens (both packages came from a local beekeeper who was struggling with mite levels).
2. Expand to four hives (less chance of having all dud queens)
3. Start from nucs (probably two nucs, one package, and a swarm)
4. Treat for mites in August/September if mite drop indicates a problem.
5. Remove most uncapped stores when preparing for winter.
6. Build some of Rusty's moisture quilts to keep the hive dry through the long rainy season.


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## Ryan Elder (May 23, 2011)

Not a ton of conclusions can be drawn about the best source due to the lack of a few essential pieces of data. If it were to be a conclusive study we would need what percentage of the total amount of sources of bees does each type represent. For example (if that wasn't very clear) 10% of the total bees bought could be local nucs whereas southern nucs could represent 20%. I hope this made sense (I think I might be having trouble with my English today).


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Still winter here, so I'm delaying posting my losses until Spring. In fact, haven't even checked hives yet. Will in about 2 weeks.
Regards,
Steven


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Here is a link to one of the studies Winevines is referring to. http://umaine.edu/sustainable-ag/sare-farmer-grants/profile-establishing-new-honeybee-hives/

It only encompassed 56 hives so the study, while set up and executed well, was limited in value as pointed out by Erin herself. One thing I want to direct peoples attention to. Look at the honey totals in the study. What good is the higher survival rate of "local" stock if they can't produce honey? The conventional packages made the most honey. 

A study like this is nice, but I just want raw numbers, unscientific data of what is going on on the beekeeper level. Erin is a Master Beekeeper with multiple seasons under her belt... Her data is going to reflect her experience. I want a better mix in the experience range from first year forward. I want to see in a graph what is happening with all the mistakes included... I am not going to disqualify a dead hive because I suspect that it died from pesticides... Dead is dead.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Until you start replacing deadouts, how can you count your winterloss? You haven't stopped loosing them until you start making increase.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Two things have surprised me so far about this poll.


You only have 60 votes in so far.

Lost one out of two in UPstate NY. Most likely beekeeper management is the cause.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> You only have 60 votes in so far.


That is the number of voters, it is a multiple choice poll so each person can cast more than one vote. there are over 70 votes counting what is in the body of the thread.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Nucs are almost dead even with packages when counting the sources together.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

bluegrass said:


> That is the number of voters, it is a multiple choice poll so each person can cast more than one vote. there are over 70 votes counting what is in the body of the thread.


But once we vote I don't see any way to go back and add another choice if we find another deadout. I also don't see a way to record multiple losses from the same type of colony.

I voted once for a dead split that was a 4 frame nuc in August, tried to add bees and brood to build it up but guess it wasn't enough.

Since then I found another dead split if you want to add that one to the count. This one was a split with purchased southern queen in May, built up okay and even gave me some honey. I don't know why it died. Most of the dead bees were on the bottom board and there did not seem to be a lot of them. I made a note back in September that the queen looked small and found a couple of queen cells. Maybe she had quit laying and did not make enough winter bees.

Nine colonies left, keeping my fingers crossed and making sure they don't starve before spring.

P.S. When I look at the colonies I had going into wither it was 1 previously overwintered colony, 1 southern nuc, 3 packages, and 6 splits. It seems like the poll results might be greatly affected by the number from each category that we started with.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Once I get the email survey completed I plan to count total numbers of hives vs losses so we can get a much better picture. I will also have an addendum box that can be checked so you can add additional deadouts without completing the entire survey. Once you receive the survey complete it and save it to your computer. Attach it to an email back to me. If you have additional deadouts later on you just re-open the file, check the addendum box and resubmit it to me again.

I plan to keep the survey as simple as possible so we don't have to sort through mountains of data.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Just saying if you want to do this, the survey could be a spread sheet with the first column being the Apiary. The rest of the columns could be all the options and data you want to collect. The poll could be who wants to take part in the survey? You give the person the format you want to use and they send you the data. Merging the data could be quite easy once you decide on the format.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Here is the format for the Email poll. Copy and paste it into a word document if you want to participate, then attach it to an email and send it back to me. I plan to set up a web page to make the results accessible to everybody. 



> 2011/2012 winter Deadout Poll.
> Instructions: Please answer questions as accurately as possible. Only mark Addendum if you previously submitted the poll and need to make changes. Only mark the changes that need to be made, leave all other areas blank.
> Use the Nuc categories for all purchased Nucs and the Splits category for all Nucs you produced yourself by splitting your own hives. Leave any areas that are not applicable to you blank or mark N/A. Please mark the month that you started each Colony, if started in multiple months please list in the comments section at the bottom. Email to [email protected]
> Addendum ____
> ...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I take it we should wait until spring before sending you the data so there would be no or less updates?


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## northbee (Apr 16, 2009)

4 dead out of 14 with 8+ weeks left. 

One was an overwintered swarm from '10 that produced a crop but went down hard to mites in the fall. 

another was a swarm from the same bee tree as previous that starved. 
The other two were nucs which also starved. 

The other hives are healthy and still heavy. I do not treat and have been catching/trapping swarms and buying resistant stock and propagating from my best colonies.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I have only received a handful of the email surveys back. If you want to participate see post #47. I would like to get everybody who entered info in this poll, but I need the info to be consistent so I need it in the format of the survey in post #47
Thanks


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