# TBH keeps in nh or ma?



## jpelley (Jun 9, 2012)

Hey, I'm on the boarder between NH and MA. Just want to know how your TBHs are doing? Thinking of starting one this spring but I wanted an idea of what I'm getting into. During the winter? And the hot days of summer?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I tried 3 versions of them a few years ago. All died in the winter. I also had collapsed comb during a very warm spell. Moved on to langs.


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## jpelley (Jun 9, 2012)

Did they died of starvation or did they freeze? If you can't remember that's fine.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

If TBH don't work (and remember they were developed and promoted for tropical Africa) maybe try a Warre style hive as those were designed for cooler temperate Europe. You still get the ease of using top bars but in a hive that will probably winter better in your climate.


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## Calvin King (Oct 5, 2011)

I don not know that my experience is relevant as I am in south GA.,but mine are doing great. I had to move them to a new location a few weeks back and they still seem to being doing great and we are in our third year.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

jpelley said:


> Did they died of starvation or did they freeze? If you can't remember that's fine.


They froze with lots of honey available. IMO they don't move on the combs well in the winter.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm in a colder climate than yours. I winter some TBHs every winter. I lose them the same rate as the Langstroth hive, which is that most of them make it most winter.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Based on absolutely no evidence of any substance I think higher coastal humidity has as much to do with it as colder temps. A TBH has more surface per volume than a lang. Rising air should have more of a tendency to flow down the long way and condense on the food stores. 
As important is will your TBH have much as drawn comb as a nuc or as a lang. I found it hard to get them to draw beyond the cluster even while feeding. I see TBHs around here set up on a saw horse type of stand, at a nice convenient working height but wide open to the wind. 
If you TBH use a bar with a bottom frame. I know the bees are not supposed to ignore bee space and are not supposed to fasten onto the sides but mine did, again and again. What a mess.
Love the concept, hate the reality, maybe it is just me. Many things are.


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## jpelley (Jun 9, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> I'm in a colder climate than yours. I winter some TBHs every winter. I lose them the same rate as the Langstroth hive, which is that most of them make it most winter.


glad to hear you have success in your area. I would like to know, if you don't mind, what kind of TBHs you overwinter and anything special you do to help them out.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here's Michael Bush's page on his TBHs:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>glad to hear you have success in your area. I would like to know, if you don't mind, what kind of TBHs you overwinter and anything special you do to help them out. 

The link above is the second half and part of the first half of your question. Pictures of two of the kinds I have are there along with management information. Since Christy of Gold Star gave me a top bar hive, I've had bees in that one every since and it has always done well. http://www.goldstarhoneybees.com/


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Word is that she is not very successful overwintering those hives up there.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Word is that she is not very successful overwintering those hives up there. 

Word is no one is very successful overwintering southern packages up there and that seems to be what people have been using.

Bees from mild climates have not done well here either.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

I know it's an obvious observation to make, but why don't more people source their packages/nucs locally so the bees you start with are better acclimated to your area? Is it mostly a supply issue or an information/education one? Sorry for the slight thread jacking ;-)


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

The problem is the farther north you go the later the local packages. So instead of late March or April you are probably looking at May. Were I live the problem we have is that it seems like by the end of June there is no flow until an autumn flow, and usually that doesn't produce much.


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## jpelley (Jun 9, 2012)

I thank you for the links and still plan to try out a TBH. I'm not sure were our bees were ordered from because my hives are swarms off of these hives, but they came south of us. I plan to use a swarm or split to start the hive so maybe, having and over wintered queen, will help.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

You may want to consider requeening later with a queen from up there. I'm not sure when you could get one from Michael Palmer, but they are from Vermont, so I would think they would do pretty good in Mass.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>why don't more people source their packages/nucs locally so the bees you start with are better acclimated to your area?

shannonswyatt is right. It's all about the timing. You can't have nucs and packages as early as everyone wants. But if you get a nuc in mid May that does well and survives the winter, I think you are ahead of getting a package in early April that doesn't make it through the winter. So some of it is training and getting people to value a later healthy overwintered northern nuc over an earlier southern package.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

According to her website/slideshow, bees come from wolf creek...small cell and treatment free.
Deknow



Michael Bush said:


> >Word is that she is not very successful overwintering those hives up there.
> 
> Word is no one is very successful overwintering southern packages up there and that seems to be what people have been using.
> 
> Bees from mild climates have not done well here either.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I don't think there is anything impossible about overwintering tbh in Massachusetts, Maine, or new Hampshire. I do think that Les Crowder has the right approach in his book.....he is a commercial beekeeper and keeping tbh alive and productive is how he feeds his family.

In Maine, the major tbh proponent sells hives and bees to fill them.....but we have no reports on how well they overworked (word on the street is as Cam said.....but I have no inside info).
Add the evaluation of tbh by a master beekeeper in Maine as published in the journals...... and there isn't much of a lead to follow.

Like all things, the devil is in the details.....I can't quite recommend tbh in our area simply because I haven't seen it done right in our area....there is no lead to follow.

I was watching a movie with snowboarding last night, and was thinking about how terrible the first snow board probably performed and looked......it would be folly to judge the feasibility of a tbh in new England based on "first attempts".

But if you are going to sell hives, bees to go in them, and teach how "easy" tbh management is, isnt overwintering relevant?

Deknow


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> I don't think there is anything impossible about overwintering tbh in Massachusetts, Maine, or new Hampshire. I do think that Les Crowder has the right approach in his book.....he is a commercial beekeeper and keeping tbh alive and productive is how he feeds his family.


Long way from New Mexico to MA. Two of my TBH's were headed by Carni queens. Their sisters made the winter in Langs, they froze. There was ample honey available [didn't take any off] and about 15 drawn bars in the hives. I've offered the hives for free for 3 years and got no takers. Finally burned the top bars but the hives are still available.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>According to her website/slideshow, bees come from wolf creek...small cell and treatment free.

For the first time this last year. I guess this spring will tell how that worked out.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I dunno. I very much like Christy, she has shown us wonderful support, and we always enjoy running into her at events.

I am very careful about what I say and claim...both when offering advice and when selling something.


> The Gold Star Top Bar hive:
> It's easy to assemble, it's easy to manage, it's just easy!


If it isn't easy (or demonstrated) to overwinter, it isn't easy to manage.

I'm in somewhat of a "competing" market wrt teaching new beekeepers (we do not sell TBH or any equipment to speak of)....and we have a lot of contact with her students and customers. I'm not sure it is helpful to tell people how easy it is if it is not.

Again, I don't doubt that TBH can be kept in New England....we might run a couple this year ourselves. I'm just not seeing that anyone is doing it well enough and sharing management practices that give a good model to follow, never mind to consider it "easy".

deknow


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> >
> 
> shannonswyatt is right.


You made my day! I'm going to print this out and hang it on the wall! It maybe the last time you say it!


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## gjd (Jan 26, 2011)

The gist of my vast 1 year/1 KTBH experience in Shirley, MA is in the W. Kelley Jan 2013 newsletter (edit- p.25). I didn't have the heart to subject the poor things to another winter in the KTBH. Ironically, after doing ok last summer in a Lang, they died end of Jan. in my first-ever deadout. Suspect mites, haven't opened it fully yet. It was, to follow the thread, one of Rick R's NE Bees packages (with replacement queen early summer (edit- late spring)), which come from Georgia. But that wasn't the problem for me, see the newsletter. It just wasn't a good environment. Good Luck. Greg.


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## stella379 (May 9, 2012)

jpelley not sure if your still reading this thread but wanted to add I'm in central mass and my tbh is doing fine. Girls have been out on the couple nice days we have had.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

stella 379, do you wrap, shelter from the wind or just let them go? Feed? Did you take honey first year or leave them. Success is success and that is what we all want.


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## BeverlyBees (Feb 5, 2012)

Hi jpelley,

I am right around the corner from you in Beverly. I have a top bar that I got last year from Sam Comfort as an established colony. So far this winter it is doing better than my Lang hives and is out flying on warm days. The comb was fine on warm days over the summer and they did a great job adding comb and stores for winter. I did insulate it with rigid insulation over the top bars for overwintering but that's all. I also gave them a few frames of capped honey from one of my lang hives by cutting off the bottom and side bars and sticking it in the back of the hive, but I don't think they needed it, (yet anyway). If it makes it through the rest of the winter you are welcome to stop by and take a look.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Beverlybees, looking at your site, your hive looks larger than others I see locally. That may be an advantage. Will you add sizes?


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

deknow <"I do think that Les Crowder has the right approach in his book.....he is a commercial beekeeper and keeping tbh alive and productive is how he feeds his family."

That statement is fraught with misconception.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Riskybizz said:


> That statement is fraught with misconception.


What is the misconception?


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## BeverlyBees (Feb 5, 2012)

Saltybee said:


> Beverlybees, looking at your site, your hive looks larger than others I see locally. That may be an advantage. Will you add sizes?


Saltybee it is 3 feet long, 20 inches on the top, 9 3/4 on the bottom. It could be the size but it could also be the bees.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Shannonswyatt

While Mr. Crowder does keep and manage TB colonies (and does a great job by the way) he also generates income via a plethora of associated beekeeping classes. You name it he teaches it. As I recall Les told me he lost several yards last winter.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Gotcha.


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## stella379 (May 9, 2012)

Saltybee,
I did wrap mine in insulation and also built a wind block for them. I was fully drawn going into winter and didnt take any honey--I had a full six bars. I did not feed anything going into winter, the colony was started from a swarm last year.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Hives die, it happens to everyone, doesn't necessarily reflect on you or the hive. A friend of my dad has lost 30 of 50 so far (Langs), and winter isn't over by a long shot. Hoping for a decent second half of March and no snow storms or big cold snaps in April. And hanging a lot of swarm traps!


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## VeggieGardener (Oct 4, 2011)

jpelley said:


> Hey, I'm on the boarder between NH and MA. Just want to know how your TBHs are doing? Thinking of starting one this spring but I wanted an idea of what I'm getting into. During the winter? And the hot days of summer?


I'm not as far north but it does get cold here in PA and my top bar hives have done just fine and over wintered successfully. I don't wrap them but do lay a sheet of the aluminum bubble wrap style insulation right over the top bars. Have not encountered any issues during summer from the heat. Good luck.


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## jpelley (Jun 9, 2012)

BeverlyBees said:


> Saltybee it is 3 feet long, 20 inches on the top, 9 3/4 on the bottom. It could be the size but it could also be the bees.


I haven't looked at the thread for awhile. I'm glad to here your tbh is surviving the winter. Where did you get the bees the are in your tbh? And what style bars do you use? Just want to give them the best for success. Thanks


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## jpelley (Jun 9, 2012)

stella379 said:


> jpelley not sure if your still reading this thread but wanted to add I'm in central mass and my tbh is doing fine. Girls have been out on the couple nice days we have had.


Same questions, where did you get your bees for your tbh? What style bars? Tbh size?


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## BeverlyBees (Feb 5, 2012)

jpelley said:


> I haven't looked at the thread for awhile. I'm glad to here your tbh is surviving the winter. Where did you get the bees the are in your tbh? And what style bars do you use? Just want to give them the best for success. Thanks


I got my bees from Sam Comfort, they are northern bred survivor bees, which I think is important. The bars are thick rectangular bars with a grove in them. In the grove, 4 Popsicle sticks are glued in the long way, as a starter strip for the bees to build foundation.


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## jpelley (Jun 9, 2012)

I think its probably the best thing to use local bee as well. When I start the topbar it will most likely be a swarm from one of our survivor hives here. I like the popsicle sticks, just didn't know about glue in the hive, I know beekeepers do it all the time though. Have any of you ever cut a grove and filled in with melted wax? I heard from somewhere it doesn't stick to the wood as well as when the bees do it and you have a higher chance of having collapsed comb.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> I heard from somewhere it doesn't stick to the wood as well as when the bees do it and you have a higher chance of having collapsed comb.

Perhaps you read it here:


> *Question:* What's the best comb guide?
> *Answer:* Except for the wax filled groove, there's nothing wrong with any kind of commonly used guide from a strip of foundation waxed in a groove to a triangular guide, but there are advantages and disadvantages. In my opinion the one with the most advantages and least disadvantages is the triangular wooden guide. The bees follow it the most reliably and attach it the most solidly. I like a wax starter strip the least as it's fragile and hot weather can cause them to fall off. I think the least reliable would be dribbling a bead across a plain bar. This is at best a slight suggestion and as a guide it is often a complete failure.
> *Question:* Do I have to put wax on the wooden guide?
> *Answer:* No. I not only don't put beeswax on the wood comb guides, I don't recommend it. The wax you put on the guide will not be attached as well as what the bees will attach the comb. So it actually weakens the connection to dip the edge of the guide in beeswax. In my experience, the bees will not follow the guide any better or worse with or without the wax.
> ...


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## BeverlyBees (Feb 5, 2012)

It is true, the bees do a better job sticking wax to wood than we do. Not much glue is needed. The groves on the bars are narrow and only big enough to slip the popsicle sticks inside. About 1/3 of the popsicle stick is underneath the groove. In this design, the glue does not come in contact with the bees, since it is inside the top bar groove. I have also seen people make a slanted V edge bottom to their top bars, and you could try that too.


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## BeverlyBees (Feb 5, 2012)

Also you don't need a comb guide on all your bars. Once the bees draw a few bars correctly you can then put a regular flat bar between two bars with good straight drawn comb and the bees will draw it out fine.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The attachment seems stronger with a comb guide.


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## jpelley (Jun 9, 2012)

Thanks everyone, its been helpful. I will try a topbar, and report later.


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

We're building three top bar hives this year using Les Crowder's plans. He spoke last year at both the Arizona Organic Beekeepers meeting and the Leominster treatment-free conference and was very inspiring. We'll be documenting the project, including installing the bees and the hives will come to the Leominster conference this July.

We've used foundationless Langstroth's for many years so we're used to the comb but have never had an on-going horizontal hive. Les' bees live through pretty cold winters - I'm curious to see what we can do here in north central Massachusetts by following his plans and management strategies.


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