# Front Range Cell Builder a "do all box"



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

A lot of thought has gone into that.:thumbsup: Have you physically run it through all the possibilities? I am wondering if the bees can find a way to thwart you! They do me; I think it is a conspiracy!

I have the same 3 vertical grooves for dividers in the 11 frame box I made but sure did not consider all their possibilities. I found one section of drawn comb I wanted laid up, chock full of nectar!

With your system you should be able to keep pretty good track of where the queen is. For me I find it maddening not to be able to find a queen in a busy colony. Happened just a few days ago when I was wanting to set up a Cloak board. Used smoke to hedge my bets which box she ran into and put on an excluder but have to wait a few days now to check for eggs.

We want to see some video of this in action and with bees in the picture!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Have you physically run it through all the possibilities?


Certainty not all, but many. One of the keys is the flexibility to reconfigure the box to correct an issue
It was my main system last year














The original set up was planed to run 5x5 but do to putting in a grove for both the slide board and QE it only fit 4x4. 
next I found it was too much space to force the queen to reliably start laying on the target so I moved the QE to the 3 position and kept the slide in the 5 position. This gave me a slot on the queen right side next to the QE to keep started grafts, and caged virgins. 

It all worked ok but I wanted to cram the forgers in to a smaller space, minimize the work to move/place grafts, and as I had been looking at an II breeder queen this year, I wanted to keep the queen from being able to leave the hive



> I am wondering if the bees can find a way to thwart you! They do me; I think it is a conspiracy!


every year my bees put me in my place! 
smooth waters and fair winds make a poor sailor


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

How about a few pictures of what looks like a bench/toolbox for us old guys who are tired of bending over.
Thanks


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## jigsaw (Jun 10, 2019)

Very clever design. I might try it.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> How about a few pictures of what looks like a bench/toolbox for us old guys who are tired of bending over.


just my take on the classic hive seat with a lowered center of gravity so it doesn't tip over in the back of the truck.















https://honeybee.uoguelph.ca/resources-for-beekeepers/hive-stool/
https://www.beeculture.com/build-a-vintage-hive-seat/


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## jkellum (Dec 29, 2016)

I built one this week. i have a strong nuc that im gonna put in here and see how good my eyes are.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Can you show us some more details on your combination grafting/banking frame? I really like that concept because as an electrical engineer that does this as a hobby beek sometimes the timing demands of queen rearing present challenges. Being able to just drop capped cells on the same frame would be nice.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

the video shows this one, a JZBZ bar fits in the top slot 
http://shop.honeyrunapiaries.com/nursery-frame

last year I was running something like this one with a bar up top, cages below 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EJxr_hJ_8I

if you drop JZBZ cells in to hair roller cages you HAVE to tape our outherwize hold them down.
the internet shows a lot of pictures of them just dropped in...
I can tell you 1st hand the virgins can push them up and escape, and there goes the queen less side of your cell builder. I have had them do it in the incubator as well 

While I haven't tested it yet, the addition of the shim to this years version was partially to accommodate a joe may 2x4 style bank/nursery ... likey going to be 2x2 given the smaller volume of cells 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4u3pyRAzF4

I got the shim idea from Joe Latshaw with the thought it would make the bars/nursery much easer to access, especially moving started cells to a different finisher 
https://www.beeculture.com/net-gain-cell-building-system/


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

crofter said:


> We want to see some video of this in action and with bees in the picture!


here you go!
I filmed my self working the FRCB for a full cycle for the FB page and then put it all together for youtube , and yes they try to thwart me, but I come out on top!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV5SR7s7so8


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

So, what happens at the end of the season, how does that get broken down to winter? And I guess, how do you start that up in the new year?


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

I presume for winter you remove the divider boards, add a frame of honey to bring it back to ten frames, and top with a box of winter honey.


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## Akademee (Apr 5, 2020)

This is a very interesting design, I would be a little concerned that there aren't enough young nurse bees to take care of the new queen grafts. Are the grafts moved to a more built up cell builder colony?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> So, what happens at the end of the season


overwinter as a single


> I would be a little concerned that there aren't enough young nurse bees to take care of the new queen grafts


all about scale (grafts to bees ratio) this is on par with the typical 5 frame nuc starter/finisher that it was dezinged to be comparable with. Instead of adding a frame of brood a week it has a queen that lays a frame a week


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Do you have good success overwintering as a single on your side of the mountain? I've never tried it and I've been nervous about attempting it over here on the western slope, mainly because of the spring roller coaster. I've got a mean queen I split to a 10 frame single deep that I intend to requeen in a few weeks, so I could give it a try at little cost except an excess queen.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

so after the queens are mated and come back I assume you are caging them and selling them as queens. What do you do with the rest of the little baby Comfort hive combs and such?


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Absinthe said:


> What do you do with the rest of the little baby Comfort hive combs and such?


Are you talking about mating nucs? 

Two frame mating nuc frames go with the queen to the regular nuc or to the requeened hive since they are standard deeps. 

Mini nuc half frames with brood go to a regular hive above a queen excluder to hatch out. Mini frames in a quad can be supered directly onto a regular hive. Mini-frames can be attached together with a clip to make a full length frame that goes in a standard box. After any brood emerges then they get stored for next year. My minis are in a quad, so I plan to let it get filled with honey and then store it for the winter, that way I have stocked honey frames ready to go for next spring. I wouldn't leave the quad on over winter because of the chance of the cluster getting cut off in one chamber.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

He is using "comfort topbars" they are little bamboo skewers. Maybe they could be rubber banded into a regular frame or something, but I am not sure how they would fit into a langstroth equipment.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

ya you could zip tie 3 to a frame top bar...

our you could build a hatch box https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?333915-Styro-Mini-Mating-Nuc&p=1513861#post1513861

you could also just pull the last round of queens and let them turn in to "feeders" during robbing season, you "spent" a cup of bees to mate out a few queens and got a very good ROI. The bees that are in there arn't winter bees and will die any way before spring, not realy losing much shake them out and let them find a new hive 

I do have some I am running for "over flow" needs, but they were developed as outreach, a way to get them in to the hands of the locals and teach them how to use virgins (either from me or caged swarm cells) I have about 50 of them "in the wild" right now donated to bee clubs/4h and given away with a virgin purchase, maby that number again in copys people made using one of the flat packed kits as a template. 

$15 for a virgin and a mini nuc kit... I think a got a lot of sales do to lock down boredom, people were very eager to try something new at that price I have had several people drive and hour and 1/2 to come get then... one did it 2x... 1 time they bought 2 virgins, came back 3 days later for 5 more. 

my work horse mating nucs are 8 frame 1/2 length super shallows (5.25" high box) with a removal center divider so they can run 3x3 with feeders.. They can be stacked to over winter and can be staked on 8F hives 



> Do you have good success overwintering as a single on your side of the mountain?


Yes 
last year my palmers (4x4 over 4x4) took 25% loses
A sold 5 frame nuc will be ok, I had a bunch of piss poor ones... queen castles I started to grow out too late so not even 4 frames (was still makeing queens late last year), take 2/3 losses. 
it seems anything 10f or bigger is sold (as sold as beekeeping can be) 

if they can overwinter singles outside in Can, we can as well


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

Don't get me wrong, I think this is awesome! I think I would love to implement something like this in a season or two. 

From your answer, it sounds like you don't actually use this system? Do you just do it to distribute VQs to other people with? 

Anyway it looks like a great system, thanks for laying it out so well. 

I never thought of making equipment from foam insulation either, nor had I really looked at the Comfort hive system too deeply before either. You have exposed me to lots of things all in the same day! Thanks again!


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## thylako1dal (Apr 21, 2020)

Just a thought... you have the field bees coming back to the builder section to pack it out with bees, but my understanding is that nurse bees are the ones primarily responsible for royal jelly production. What if you rotated the capped 3-week old target frame into the builder section to keep it stocked with young bees close to the cells?


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

The returning foragers are supposed to crowd the box so that cells are raised on the swarm impulse instead of the emergency impulse. Once cells are started the division board is removed and the graft frame is moved closer to the queen excluder so that they complete the cells as a queen right hive on swarm impulse. It is believed by many that the swarm impulse produces better queens. The frames filled with brood in the queenright section constrain where the queen can lay so that she lays on the empty timing frame. Bees that emerge from the capped frame will find their way through the QE to the builder section.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I have a few of the home built foamys set up as quads for over flow when I need them 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rx2M4JattQ

The do all was my primary cell builder last year, it was training wheels for this year. Proving out what it was going to take to produce a regular flow of queens on schedule, .. thats one of the reason it functions like a mini "big producer" cellbuilding yard , and I was going to be fine with it this year, a steady flow of about a 10 or so queens a week, not counting the weeks things go bad, witch they do... cell batchs go bad, a rouge virgin is lose, or in this years case there is a huge cold snap the kills all the blooms seting the hive way back, then they blame the queen and supersede so pull a nuc with the old queen and she lays like a rock star while the cell builder was catching back up, the bees were WRONG this time.. lol 

This year I offered queens for sale openly (last year was just to people asking "hey you seem to know a bit about queens, by chance do you have any for sale" 
Turns out when you say "hey I have local queens for sale " and have a bit of a rep, you get bum rushed and don't have any left for your self :bus 
I have been reduced to selling virgins as they emerge on wens and sat and they are still picking me clean, right now I have a whopping 7 mateing nucs stocked, I last night I added the shim to the FRCB do all and put in 6 virgins from the incubator that didn't sell to bank them.. 2 go out today and (hopefully) I get to keep and mate out the rest. 

with covid I am stuck home and have time to work my bees so I am running a dubble deep builders/ finishers in the main yard+ the do all at the house to pump up the volume 

I took a look at the grafts yesterday when I put the shim in, the cells look MUCH better then the 3xQE-3-QEX3 if I had to guess the 2 QEs in the center was hampering the flow of nurse bees to the grafts and the 6xQE-3 is finishing better... still might try it as a 3xslidex3xQE-3 starter and finish 6xQE-3 .. as the acceptance was better with the crowding. 
The other thing I saw with it as the 3f starter was the target comb got filled... by grafting them the empty cells got nectar and pollen placed in them so the nutrition was there in bulk..


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

msl said:


> Turns out when you say "hey I have local queens" and have a bit of a rep, you get bum rushed and don't have any left for your self


I ran into a similar problem this year. I had a small batch of queens that were mated last September. I overwintered them. To get a jump on the packages and spring nucs, I advertised early that I had nucs with mated laying September queens, and that because they were September queens they were mated when there were lots of drones around. Beekeepers that understood what that meant verses the early package queens jumped on them, and I was sold out twenty minutes after posting. With people still messaging and calling calling I decided to let the queen I was going to keep go. Later I made a 3 way swarm cell split on a hive, moving the queen and half the frames to a new hive and one frame of cells to a mating nuc, leaving the rest of the cells in the mother hive. Some clumsy oaf :scratch: dropped the mating nuc, killing the cell, and the virgin never returned to the mother hive, so now not having any queens, I recombined that one.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Well you might have noted I was grumbling about runty cells
dosen't cost me anything to let them emerge and I needed some for "target pratice" with the new II rig

well, I don't see anything wrong with the size of these
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HkxCeqPefI 

I was marking and cageing the "runts" from the emerge/bank frame and their sisters(same grafting session but placed in a dubble deep cell builder on a single bar) out of the incubator at the same time . 

They compared very well if not bigger.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Spring has almost sprung, that makes it hardware season!!
Spent a bit of time working on a better plan set for the state and figured I would share them

*Bottom board (1)*
Parts
16.25”X20” OSB, if your only making one you can buy 2x4 “project panels” at home depot instead of 4x8 sheets
Dimensions Oriented Strand Board (Common: 7/16 in. x 2 ft. x 4 ft.; Actual: 0.435 in. x 23.75 in. x 47.75 in.)-15114 - The Home Depot
If you don’t have a table or circular saw, most stores (lowes/home depot) will make the cuts for about a buck.

Out of 1x2 furring strips 1 in. x 2 in. x 8 ft. Furring Strip Board-160954 - The Home Depot

Two 12” pieces(ends)
Two 18.5” pieces (sides)
Three 17” pieces (division board supports)
Using screws or pneumatic staples assemble as shown with the two outer 17” pieces on 5 5/8” centers and the middle one on center (8 1/8”).











I like to have a 2x2 rim supporting my bottom boards, but its not necessary.

*Back door plug (1)*
A few 1x2 scraps with one cut to fit the gap, one just a little bigger and stapled/screwed together. I paint mine a bright color to combat loss and so that I can see the hive status from a distance

*









Cell builder body* (1)
a standard 10 frame deep converted to a “1-2-3 Box” that can also be used as 2 five frame nucs or 3 three frame nucs for mating queens.
Before assembling a hive body make ¼” wide Dato cuts 1/8” deeper than the frame rest that are matching the centers for the 17” 1x2”s 








If your starting with an assembled 10 frame deep box you can make a cutting jig and use a router to make the cuts for you!!

*Division boards* (2)

These are made from 3/16” hardboard
Hardboard Tempered Panel (Common: 3/16 in. x 4 ft. x 8 ft.; Actual: 0.175 in. x 48 in. x 96 in.)-832780 - The Home Depot
Cut to the height of your box, it can vary slightly by maker ie 9-7/16”, 9- 9/16”, 9-5/8” a
Then cut to whatever length fits smoothly between the grooves, but as tight as reasonable, it can vary depending on box warp and how tightly the box was assembled so I can’t give you hard/fast numbers(aprox 19 1/8” )

Cut out the center of the 2 division boards leaving 2-2.5” on the perimeter and glue/stich, zip tie in a section of plastic queen excluder, hot glue seems to work ok.

The thinner 1/8” hardboard comes in 2x4 project panels if you don’t want to break down a full sheet Dimensions 1/8 in. x 2 ft. x 4 ft. Tempered Hardboard (Actual: 0.115 in. x 23.75 in. x 47.75 in.)-109112 - The Home Depot It works, but warps more, I have come to prefer the thicker 3/16” 

*Pheromone blocking board (1)*
Cut the same height as the division boards and about 18 5/16” long it should smoothy fit in the deep body up against the division board (but not in groove). Its dimensions are not super critical, it just needs to cover the window portion of the division board. 


















*Flexible Inner cover (1)*
Simply a 16”x20” sheet of Reflectix foam Reflectix 16 in. x 25 ft. Double Reflective Insulation Roll with Staple Tab Edge-ST16025 - The Home Depot

Canvas or heavy fabric will work as well, we need the flexibility to seal the top of the division boards to prevent queen cross over. 

*Split rigid outer covers (2)*
8 1/8 X 20” OSB pieces with 1.5” feed holes drilled in it. These sit on top of the flexible inner to hold it in place and prevent the bees from pushing it up.

*Feeders (2)*
Quart deli containers with six 1/16” holes in the lid. These are my standard nuc feeders (they stack inside each other for storage!!). but you can set it up for what ever jar type you like.
https://www.amazon.com/EDI-Containe...98833&pd_rd_wg=oTohD&pd_rd_i=B07SYCVVC5&psc=1










*Feeder Shell *
You can’t put the outer cover on while feeding so I like to keep a deep box on top so I can pu a lid on it to keep the sun and weather off the feeders and inner cover while the builder is being fed (most of the season), it makes a nice place to hold the parts and extra frames while then are not in use.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

I made a 3 way box over the winter and am going to try banking a queen or two in it this year. I think it will also come in handy if I catch a hive trying to swarm. I set mine up with 3 entrances and can pull a divider out if I want.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I think you mean keeping a queen in a small nuc?
banking is it typically storing a bunch of caged queens in a colony


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

msl said:


> I think you mean keeping a queen in a small nuc?
> banking is it typically storing a bunch of caged queens in a colony


You are right, it will be a queen in a small nuc. I guess I considered keeping a queen in a small nuc for problems with a normal hive banking them since I am storing them.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

box came threw its 3rd winter as a single and has been put to work


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