# Regression?



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

If you put 4.9 mm in a 5.4 hive, what will the bees do with it? Will they chew it out, and build what they want? Draw it, but queen will not lay in it?

Also, if you regress a hive of bees, however many steps it takes, and get them to a point where they draw out good 4.9, what do you do if you want to incorporate drone foundation as a pest management? Will 5.4 work for drone?

Also, if you got a full regression to 4.9, then wanted to order a queen from somewhere that does the artificial insemination, the chances are that she will be of 5.4 comb. Will she lay in the 4.9?

(This is just a few of the questions that I find myself wondering on)


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ron Young said:


> If you put 4.9 mm in a 5.4 hive, what will the bees do with it?


Depends on several factors (time of year, type of queen). Most likely it will get drawn out fairly uneven and be what most would call a mess.



> Also, if you got a full regression to 4.9, then wanted to order a queen from somewhere that does the artificial insemination, the chances are that she will be of 5.4 comb. Will she lay in the 4.9?


Sure. Once you get good 4.9 comb, you can put any bees on it and do fine.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

From what I have read most folks either regress in two steps 5.4 to 5.1 then to 4.9 or use HSC frames to force regression. Again from what I have read they build out the 4.9 but it is not uniform. Unsure about the drone question. Now the queen question can go many ways.....Yes, no, superseded. However from my experince....I put two 5.4 nucs of bees on HSC and the queens had no problem laying in it once I forced the issue. Queens have been seen "corkscrewing" their bums into the smaller cells. Hope this helps. Also check out Michael Bush's website:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

I split two colonies to four, and regressed this year. Also caught a swarm that was already regressed. I used the MannLake Plastic small cell. They were slow drawing but once they drew their own comb there was no problem laying. 

I would say they had problems drawing so I substituted drawn combs from my captured swarm which had no problem drawing the MannLake. I also purchased 20 honeysupercell drawn plastic, plastic frames. They will lay in these if forced to but upon given wax drawn frames they leave the honeysupercell and use them for honey and pollen only. After the queens have a place to lay, they had no problems laying in small cell, just in drawing the smaller size comb.

My understanding is that if bees on large cell (5.4mm) are allowed to make there own foundation (foundationless) they revert back in stages, first from 5.4mm to 5.1 or 5.2 mm and then the next generation will go smaller between 4.6-4.9mm.

Once my bees began drawing the MannLake, they drew it out correctly and did not make a mess. My non regressed bees did eventually draw wax on the Mann Lake plastic, they were just slower than my regressed swarm, so I helped them by giving them a drawn comb from my regressed swarm. Second generation did just fine. Hope this is what you are looking for.

My bees raised drones in the small cell, the sealed brood just appears as bullets sticking above the normal brood. I would not put the 5.4mm for drones otherwise the queen will lay workers. Use regular drone frames for drones or let them raise them in regular small cell.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I tried HSC 4.9 fully drawn frames.... most refused to use it. and built around it or left.

not an easy thing to swap to.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I have been putting Mann Lake PF 100's in some hives this year. Most bees take right to it. I have had a few try to build fins on it, and every once in a while, you will see where they ignored a row of cells, and drew out the cells beside it and those come together. (The cells in row 1 end up attached to the cells in row 3.)

The hives that don't take to the PF 100 frames have been given foundationless frames instead, and they take to those just fine.

In my experience, most of the time bees immediately start drawing the PF 100's right away, and the queen quickly starts laying in them too.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If you put 4.9 mm in a 5.4 hive, what will the bees do with it? Will they chew it out, and build what they want? Draw it, but queen will not lay in it?

The queen will most likely lay fine in it. I've only seen one fat queen who didn't. The bees may draw it anywhere from 4.9mm to 5.1mm or even 5.2mm. With the Mann Lake PF100 series I've had nothing but perfect results from the start with no misdrawn or larger comb.

>Also, if you regress a hive of bees, however many steps it takes, and get them to a point where they draw out good 4.9, what do you do if you want to incorporate drone foundation as a pest management? Will 5.4 work for drone?

The PF120s (or PF100s) I've only seen it in one step. The HSC is the same with not as good of acceptance but they eventually take to it. The wax dipped PermaComb (I heated it and dipped it in wax and shook off the excess) was instant regression. Foundationless I've seen them draw as small as 4.7mm on the first try and as large as 5.2mm on the first try.

>Also, if you got a full regression to 4.9, then wanted to order a queen from somewhere that does the artificial insemination, the chances are that she will be of 5.4 comb. Will she lay in the 4.9?

Odds are excellent. I've only once (I have well over a hundred hives) seen a queen too fat to lay in small cell comb and the bees promptly superseded her.


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## Tihomir Mačkić (Jun 22, 2009)

One prominent beekeepers in my country claims to have video that proves indisputably that mites can not successfully breed (can't mate) in small cells. What do you think about it?


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Tihomir Ma?ki? said:


> One prominent beekeepers in my country claims to have video that proves indisputably that mites can not successfully breed (can't mate) in small cells. What do you think about it?


Where can we get the video so we can comment. There have been several disputes on thread here concerning that. The scientific studies here seem to show that this is not the case, but many individual experiences would be in agreement with this claim.


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## Tihomir Mačkić (Jun 22, 2009)

DRUR said:


> Where can we get the video so we can comment. There have been several disputes on thread here concerning that. The scientific studies here seem to show that this is not the case, but many individual experiences would be in agreement with this claim.


He used the film only in their lectures and can not be found on the Internet.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Tihomir Ma?ki? said:


> He used the film only in their lectures and can not be found on the Internet.


Tihomir MacKic:
This is a hard lot to convince here. You need to supply more information. What is the basis as to why mites cannont reproduce on small cells. 

What were the tests or experiments that were done and what were the results of these experiments. 

You might run a search on this forum for 'small cell study', and you will see that the scientific studies done in this country seems to show that there is no difference in mites in small cell (natural) vs. large cell (traditional). 

Is there any written material you can post or share here to support this contention? If you have more information then you should share as much of the details as possible. Thanks.


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## Tihomir Mačkić (Jun 22, 2009)

I have just heard about that film, but I have not seen. To see this film, I have to go to on presentation of the beekeepers, but he was far and I do not have time to visit him.
I just asked if someone has a similar knowledge?


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## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

If a colony is on old comb, 3-5 years, all of which started at 5.4 mm, will it get smaller over the years? If so, by how much? I know that the overall structure of the foundation determines the size of the sell in relation to the measurement of 10 cells in so many mm, however does the inside diameter change to each cell?

If so, and you had old comb, can you regress to 4.9 mm easier than from new 5.4 comb?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Hi Ron,

the inside of cells gets a little smaller over time due to the built up cocoons the bees leave behind, but not enough to progress toward regression.
just bite the bullet and get some 4.9 foundation and insert it into the broodnest next spring. they'll mess it up, but it's the first step. later in the year give them some more and they'll do better. the following year when you give it to them they draw it out fine. as others have said you can also use the 5.1mm stuff for the intermediate step. there aren't any shortcuts other than HSC which I've had a hard time getting them to accept. the Mannlake frames are reported to work well but I don't like the voids in them for SHB to hide in, plus plastic frames are flimsy. I cut the foundation out of them and put it in wooden frames, but that's more trouble than most would do

mite counts here are very low
Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I can't see how you could make a film to prove this, but you can certainly put them on small cell, not treat and see what happens.


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## Tihomir Mačkić (Jun 22, 2009)

This movie is the property of our famous beekeeper Ivan Brndusic. You could see some other movie from him on Youtube (bees fighting varoa) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSGa9DKraGA
Here in Bosnia and Balkan Peninsula we can raise just Carniolan honey bee. Is that kind of bees suitable for regression, or it must be Italian or Russian type?


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## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

That is neat. I wonder how he video taped that?


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## Tihomir Mačkić (Jun 22, 2009)

Ron Young said:


> That is neat. I wonder how he video taped that?


He is good in electronics, but I do not know what type of camera has used. You can send him a mail, this is his site http://www.brnda.com/


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is that kind of bees suitable for regression, or it must be Italian or Russian type? 

I've regressed Italians, Buckfasts, Carniolans, Russians and mutts. It was not a problem with any of them.


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## Tihomir Mačkić (Jun 22, 2009)

Did you noticed that the size of the cells depending on the altitude?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Did you noticed that the size of the cells depending on the altitude? 

Mine are all at the same altitude.


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## Lil Grain of Rice (Jul 30, 2009)

With small cell, do the drones and queens regress as well? I was wondering if a queen excluder would need to be a different size with small cell? If so, and for bee escapes, especially in intermediate regression, what did you do, Michael?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>With small cell, do the drones and queens regress as well?

Drones always vary in size. But I do seem to see a wider variation of size including smaller ones.

> I was wondering if a queen excluder would need to be a different size with small cell?

Any queen can get through an excluder. I don't see that small cell queens vary in size as the bees build the queen cell excessively large, not like worker cells which are just the size of the worker.

> If so, and for bee escapes, especially in intermediate regression, what did you do, Michael?

I don't use excluders except sometimes when queen rearing, but I don't have problems with them going through the excluder.


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## Lil Grain of Rice (Jul 30, 2009)

...thus making the queen easier to find? Sign me up!


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