# Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?



## borderbeeman

Superb video documentry on the partnership of government (EPA) and poison manufacturers - which has generated $billions - at the expense of killing off more than 10 million American bee colonies since 2003

http://www.linktv.org/video/8123/killing-bees-are-government-and-industry-responsible?ef

This was made by a team from Earth Focus channel and is hosted on LINK TV.

Includes interviews ith many important bee-famers, most of the key scientific researchers and a good many of the leading campaigners against systemic pesticides.

Please watch and pass on.


Killing Bees: Are Government and Industry Responsible?


(Earth Focus: Episode 44) Honey bees, the essential pollinators of many major US crops, have been dying off in massive numbers since 2006. This threatens the American agricultural system and the one in twelve American jobs that depends on it. There is growing evidence that a new class of pesticides -- nerve toxins called neonicotinoids, which are used on most US crops including almost all corn -- may be toxic to bees. The Environmental Protection Agency allowed neonicotinoids on the market without adequate tests to determine their toxicity to bees. Environmentalists want neonicotinoids banned until needed safety tests are done. While the US government is slow to act and neonicotinoid sales reap billions for the chemical industry, bees continue to die. Earth Focus reports.


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## wildbranch2007

borderbeeman said:


> Includes interviews ith many of the leading campaigners against systemic pesticides.


I'm sure these people will give an unbiased opinion.


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## borderbeeman

Well your comment implies that you are commenting even BEFORE you have watched the documentary. 
Are you being unbiased and open-minded? It sounds like your mind is pretty well made up before you even bothered to click on the link?


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## jim lyon

borderbeeman said:


> Are you being unbiased and open-minded? ?


Are you?


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## wildbranch2007

when you and stromnessbees (who I assume must be one of your gang) start a thread I don't need to read the links although I do, your side post no facts, just unsuported claims, I have better thing to do than listen to gibberish. If I was you, I would ban all uses of chemicals on all agricultural product, so we could export even more food to you, or not.


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## Bill Davis

I certainly don't trust the ethics of most company's in America, if they have a chance to make money and pay fines later they will. I don't believe these products can be healthy for our bees and I am sure there are farmers just like beekeepers who don't follow the directions when using chemicals, but if they are used as widespread as they are shouldn't we all be feeling the effects. 
Shouldn't beekeepers who are exposed to these chemicals have massive die offs each year?


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## jim lyon

I don't really think illegal rates are a problem Bill. With neonics there are no dosages to calculate at least by the user, the seed itself is treated. Foliar spraying, on the other hand, does require mixing and sprayer calibrations. This has greatly improved in recent years, any farmer that wants to apply spray must take classes and pass a test to get certified. Despite that, the stuff they are using is designed to kill most every insect it contacts and applicators are often dealing with narrow treatment windows because of wind and other environmental conditions. Even the most diligent are probably going to kill a few bees in some situations.


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## D Coates

wildbranch2007 said:


> when you and stromnessbees (who I assume must be one of your gang) start a thread I don't need to read the links although I do, your side post no facts, just unsuported claims, I have better thing to do than listen to gibberish.


I've learned that posts from Stromm and Border are heavy on unsubstantiated and hyped up claims with very similar axes to grind. If anything, they do themselves a disservice because anyone who actually looks at what they post objectively realizes this and discounts them accordingly.


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## Kieck

I'm curious, borderbeeman, what's your stake in this issue in the United States? You seem to be a staunch activist about the topic in the U. S., yet your location is listed as Edinburgh, UK.


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## Michael Bush

Why does it never seem to occur to anyone that OUR food (humans) is now contaminated with neonicotinoids, not to mention Bt toxin. You can't wash them off. They permeate the entire plant. The Bt toxin is now in the genes and in every cell. The neonicontinoids also permeate the entire plant but by a different mechanism. That's the principle of how it works. That is it's mechanism. Then we eat the plant. I like my bees, but I'm much more concerned about my grandchildren.


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## wildbranch2007

Bill Davis said:


> Shouldn't beekeepers who are exposed to these chemicals have massive die offs each year?


now I am getting worried, not only am I old but I have to watch out for the neonics
but actually what I have read said and I can't quote it doesn't have any affect on humans, but now that does bring up an interesting topic for another thread. are beeks human:scratch:


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## jim lyon

You have no monopoly on concern for our grandchildren Mr. Bush. in a perfect world there would be no bad insects eating our crops and plenty of food for everyone. If you have proof that our grandchildren are being affected by these systemic pesticides please provide it. if you have proof that systemic pesticides are more damaging than our past widespread use of foliar pesticides please provide that as well.


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## wildbranch2007

Kieck said:


> I'm curious, borderbeeman, what's your stake in this issue in the United States? You seem to be a staunch activist about the topic in the U. S., yet your location is listed as Edinburgh, UK.


I'm starting to think that they (borderbeeman and strombees) actually work for the chemical companies and are getting us to prove that they don't affect the bees. There are enough people on the forums in Europe keeping track of borderbeeman that he's trying to inflict us with his jibberish.


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## Kieck

> Why does it never seem to occur to anyone that OUR food (humans) is now contaminated with neonicotinoids, ... -Michael Bush


Excellent point, although I think quite a number of things need to be added. All classes of pesticides should be included, not just neonicotinoids. Herbicides show up in drinking water samples, insecticides are fogged into the air to target mosquitoes, fungicides are applied widely to cereal crops.

And byproducts of manufacturing find their way throughout the environment, too. Perfluoro chemicals show up in the blood of arctic marine mammals, as well as in the blood of most Americans.


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## jim lyon

Kieck said:


> Excellent point, although I think quite a number of things need to be added. All classes of pesticides should be included, not just neonicotinoids. Herbicides show up in drinking water samples, insecticides are fogged into the air to target mosquitoes, fungicides are applied widely to cereal crops.
> 
> And byproducts of manufacturing find their way throughout the environment, too. Perfluoro chemicals show up in the blood of arctic marine mammals, as well as in the blood of most Americans.


Good points all. Wouldn't we all want to live in a world without risk. I have long been an advocate of less may well be better than more and I practice that in our beekeeping as well. We as a society have an obligation to make intelligent choices when risk intersects with need. But for someone to reduce this argument to one of caring vs. not caring I think is unfair.


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## deknow

wildbranch2007 said:


> I'm starting to think that they (borderbeeman and strombees) actually work for the chemical companies and are getting us to prove that they don't affect the bees. There are enough people on the forums in Europe keeping track of borderbeeman that he's trying to inflict us with his jibberish.


"It’s not enough to be able to lie with a straight face; anybody with enough gall to raise on a busted flush can do that. The first way to lie artistically is to tell the truth — but not all of it. The second way involves telling the truth, too, but is harder: Tell the exact truth and maybe all of it…but tell it so unconvincingly that your listener is sure you are lying."
Heinlin


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## Bill Davis

wildbranch2007 said:


> now I am getting worried, not only am I old but I have to watch out for the neonics
> but actually what I have read said and I can't quote it doesn't have any affect on humans, but now that does bring up an interesting topic for another thread. are beeks human:scratch:



Thanks Mike I studied my post for minutes looking for the best way to word things and I still messed it up. I was talking about the bees dying off ,not the beekeeeper. 
But we shouldn't be suprised that all this stuff ends up in our food and water. How bad can it be we just get cancer a bit earlier in our lives, more autistic children, no big deal.


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## camero7

> Foliar spraying, on the other hand, does require mixing and sprayer calibrations.


It also often mixes fungicides with pesticides which may make each one more deadly. I am much more concerned about fungicides than neonics. I have seen some of my hives crash after an orchard was sprayed with a fungicide [maybe pesticide residue in the tanks?] I have bees very close to neonic corn and those bees are fine. Just my observations, coupled with every well done study has never shown any damage from neonics except at corn planting time with air driven planters and talc dust.


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## VeggieGardener

jim lyon said:


> You have no monopoly on concern for our grandchildren Mr. Bush. in a perfect world there would be no bad insects eating our crops and plenty of food for everyone. If you have proof that our grandchildren are being affected by these systemic pesticides please provide it. if you have proof that systemic pesticides are more damaging than our past widespread use of foliar pesticides please provide that as well.


But how much concern do the chemical companies have for our grandchildren? In a perfect world there would be a natural balance of insects and soil organisms to control "bad" insects, and food production would probably be small-scale, local, and chemical-free for the most part.

Jim, I actually think it should work the other way around... with the chemical companies providing such a high degree of proof before introducing products! Wasn't the past widespread use of foliar pesticides that you referred to considered safe and effective at the time? Ten years from now we may look at the current crop of chemicals and practices in the same light as we now do with those.


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## jim lyon

VeggieGardener said:


> Jim, I actually think it should work the other way around... with the chemical companies providing such a high degree of proof before introducing products! Wasn't the past widespread use of foliar pesticides that you referred to considered safe and effective at the time? Ten years from now we may look at the current crop of chemicals and practices in the same light as we now do with those.


I won't disagree at all that the bar should be set very high for the introduction of new chemicals and there have been cases where the system has shown some flaws. Foliar pesticides were never considered safe for bees, they were pretty much designed to kill insects that came into contact with them. We had whole yards of bees wiped out in the 70's because of alfalfa seed spraying, it's an ugly sight. Perhaps you are correct in wondering if we might find something more in the future that would clearly point out that neonics should be banned but in reality all we are doing is theorizing. In the meantime, though, there is no doubt ongoing research on even more targeted pesticides, let us all hope that safety for applicators, safety for the public and safety for bees will all be considered before they are approved. Government workers and chemical companies have families as well


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## Stromnessbees

D Coates said:


> I've learned that posts from Stromm and Border are heavy on unsubstantiated and hyped up claims with very similar axes to grind. If anything, they do themselves a disservice because anyone who actually looks at what they post objectively realizes this and discounts them accordingly.



I think that anyone who actually looks at my posts and does the math will realize what's going on:

Would anybody bother to pay me for what I write?

One the other hand:

Who has got the money to finance PR companies and a small army of stooges which pretend that these pesticides are harmless?

How much money do the companies earn on the sale of neonicotinoids, which they will lose if the beekeepers realize what is going on and demand a ban of these chemicals?

:scratch:


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## jeb532

Consider this...the weight of a neonoctinoid poison that is lethal to a bee...is 20 millionths of the weight of the bee....

The contact acute LD50 is 0.024 µg a.i./bee (micrograms of active ingredient per bee).[16] The acute oral LD50 ranges from 0.005 µg a.i./bee to 0.07 µg a.i./bee, which makes imidacloprid more toxic to the bees than the organophosphate dimethoate (oral LD50 0.152 µg/bee) or the pyrethroid cypermethrin (oral LD50 0.160 µg/bee).[15] Other insecticides that are equally or more toxic than imidacloprid include Spinosad, emamectin benzoate, Fipronil, and the neonicotinoids Clothianidin, Thiamethoxam, and Dinotefuran.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid_effects_on_bees


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## Nabber86

jeb532 said:


> Consider this...the weight of a neonoctinoid poison that is lethal to a bee...is 20 millionths of the weight of the bee....


Nobody is arguing that neonoctinoids are _not_ toxic if ingested by bees. 

That is a proven fact. Unfortunatly, forcing bees to ingest neonoctinoids in a lab is very different from real life situations.


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## Stromnessbees

jeb532 said:


> Consider this...the weight of a neonoctinoid poison that is lethal to a bee...is 20 millionths of the weight of the bee....


That is impressive.

Add to this the sublethal effects and you can go a further couple of decimal points downwards.


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## Nabber86

And the LD50 for polonium in and average adult is 1 microgram. That would be 1E-05 millionths of the weight of a human. 

The problem is humans dont eat polonium, so it doesnt matter.


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## praxis178

wildbranch2007 said:


> now I am getting worried, not only am I old but I have to watch out for the neonics
> but actually what I have read said and I can't quote it doesn't have any affect on humans, but now that does bring up an interesting topic for another thread. are beeks human:scratch:


Actually Nicotinoids do have have an effect, we have on most of our neural cells nicotinic receptors*, which are activated by the functional (aka pharmaphor) backbone (nicotine) of these chemicals. So yes be scared/worried because at some point the dose level we are exposed to will reach threshold. 

BTW this is why I can see why it would effect the homing capacity of bees.....

Cheers, Thomas. (Bio-medical science major, USC)
*these receptors are actually called muscarinic receptors and are supposed to be activated by acetylcholine, but are also activated by muscarine (death cap mushroom), nicotine, caffeine etc.


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## Stromnessbees

praxis178 said:


> BTW this is why I can see why it would effect the homing capacity of bees.....


Interesting anecdote to that:

I had breakfast with two Californians yesterday and I mentioned bees. They replied that in the last couple of summers they often had bees flying into their houses and dying there. 
Apparently they had never noticed this strange behavior before. 

Of course I explained to them, that this might well have something to do with neonic pesticides ...


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## camero7

> Of course I explained to them, that this might well have something to do with neonic pesticides ...


of course you failed to mention that there could have been many other reasons.


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## oldforte

Do neonics have any effect on the mite population? That's been my problem. I see documents of beekeepers that hive near multi acres of treated crops and have little problem. I my area very little agi areas....my bees still die. Are vaorroa mites resistant to neonics? Some of you PHD's should have an answer.


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## Kieck

The title of this thread implies that government and pesticide companies are conspiring to make and sell neonicotinoids. Where do the people who want such products to improves their production or reduce parasite problems or kill pests in their yards and gardens fit into this? Where do the consumers who want inexpensive food and fuel and other agricultural commodities fit into this?


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## wildbranch2007

praxis178 said:


> Actually Nicotinoids do have have an effect, we have on most of our neural cells nicotinic receptors*, which are activated by the functional (aka pharmaphor) backbone (nicotine) of these chemicals. So yes be scared/worried because at some point the dose level we are exposed to will reach threshold.
> 
> BTW this is why I can see why it would effect the homing capacity of bees.....
> 
> Cheers, Thomas. (Bio-medical science major, USC)
> *these receptors are actually called muscarinic receptors and are supposed to be activated by acetylcholine, but are also activated by muscarine (death cap mushroom), nicotine, caffeine etc.


I said no affect should have been low.

Excellent question Chris! That's the reason that regulators "like" the neonics, since they are of very low toxicity to mammals and birds.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...-L&9=A&I=-3&J=on&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4

We only need to look at the amount of nicotiine in cigarettes. The amount
in a single pack exceeds the LD50 for an adult human. If Haber's rule
applied, that smoker would be dead by the end of the day.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...-L&9=A&I=-3&J=on&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4


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## Stromnessbees

wildbranch2007 said:


> We only need to look at the amount of nicotiine in cigarettes. The amount
> in a single pack exceeds the LD50 for an adult human. If Haber's rule
> applied, that smoker would be dead by the end of the day.


Your approach is too general:

You need to check whether the binding to the receptor is reversible or not.

Nicotine does not get attached permanently, the effect of one cigarette wears off very quickly, it can then be eliminated. 
You would have to smoke that whole packet in quick succession to get very bad effects. 

Neonicotinoids on the other hand have nearly irreversible binding to the receptors, hence a repeated dose of the chemicals will lead to accumulation and system failure.


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## wildbranch2007

Stromnessbees said:


> Your approach is too general:
> 
> 
> Neonicotinoids on the other hand have nearly irreversible binding to the receptors, hence a repeated dose of the chemicals will lead to accumulation and system failure.


your approach is too general, where is your supporting evidence.


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## jim lyon

Stromnessbee: Do you have any explanation for the many stories of very successful beekeeping operations in areas where neonic treated crops are grown?


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## Daniel Y

jim lyon said:


> You have no monopoly on concern for our grandchildren Mr. Bush. in a perfect world there would be no bad insects eating our crops and plenty of food for everyone. If you have proof that our grandchildren are being affected by these systemic pesticides please provide it. if you have proof that systemic pesticides are more damaging than our past widespread use of foliar pesticides please provide that as well.


So we should wait until the damage is done to do anything about it? that is obviously a reasonable plan. Sorry about that extra eye son but you know we couldn't make assumptions.

What happened to the idea that things need to be proven safe before use? We haven't learned that one yet?


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## Stromnessbees

jim lyon said:


> Stromnessbee: Do you have any explanation for *the many stories* of very successful beekeeping operations in areas where neonic treated crops are grown?


Yes I have my own thoughts about these stories, and I am sure many other beekeepers are thinking the same as I do.


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## jim lyon

Stromnessbees said:


> Yes I have my own thoughts about these stories, and I am sure many other beekeepers are thinking the same as I do.


Please expand.


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## cg3

There's a ton of corn within range of my bees. They may very well have memory issues. I have to repeat the stern warnings for them to stay away from it quite often.


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## jim lyon

Daniel Y said:


> So we should wait until the damage is done to do anything about it? that is obviously a reasonable plan. Sorry about that extra eye son but you know we couldn't make assumptions.
> 
> What happened to the idea that things need to be proven safe before use? We haven't learned that one yet?


Extra eyes Daniel? A bit dramatic perhaps? If my post was a bit shrill I apologize to Mr. Bush. I have my own personal reasons I would prefer not to air here. 
I think it is important to note that these neonics are undetectable in corn syrup though corn seed is commonly treated with it. On the other hand the empty calories in the super sized cups of corn syrup sweetened Mountain Dew I see the young people drinking and the resulting obesity actually are a proven health risk to them. Sorry about that spare tire son.


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## oldforte

Stromnessbees said:


> Yes I have my own thoughts about these stories, and I am sure many other beekeepers are thinking the same as I do.


Your thoughts are that....they are lying? Eliminates your creditable!


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## jim lyon

Only the beekeepers that assume neonics are poisoning their bees are to believed, everyone else is a paid shill for the chemical companies. Sorry I cant say much more at the moment, my limousine is waiting.


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## Ian

jim lyon said:


> I think it is important to note that these neonics are undetectable in corn syrup though corn seed is commonly treated with it.


yup,


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