# TF For 5 Seasons of More - Please Stand Up



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

just coming to the end of my fifth season adam.

started june 2010, and have been tf since except for a one time application of tylosin to the few original hives that i 'inherited'.

running +/- 20 hives, the current count is 18

i have been splitting since the second season, and grafted the past two seasons. this year i also brought in queen cells from another tf apiary to mate in my yards.

i can't really say what the key has been, but i'll attribute it mostly to dumb luck. after those first few 'inherited' hives crashed, i got lucky by purchasing my subsequent queens and nucs from a long time tf supplier. (to be honest i didn't even know what tf was at the time). i am also lucky to live in an area that supports feral survivors due to a lot of wooded habitat, a temperate climate, and abundant floral diversity. i am able to avoid artificial feeds because of the generous pollen and nectar availability, and i generally get a decent honey harvest. i run single deeps with medium supers and most of my comb was drawn on standard sized rite cell foundation, although i am now introducing foundationless frames to get natural cell. winter losses are averaging less than 20% so far.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Some of my hives have not been treated since 2002. None have been treated since 2003.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

• How long have you been treatment free?
Since 2002, but only with a single isolated apiary yard. Other stock is managed with treatment.
• How many colonies are you running?
The TF apiary is stocked with 10-15 swarms from wild collected traps in the Los Padres wilderness.
• Are you raising your own queens?
I make strategic splits and allow nuc-sized colonies to raise queens. Splits are managed off the 9 month or greater survivors
• What would you say the key to your success has been in terms of management?
Well no, success is a very relative term (2014 saw 12 of 14 colonies succumb or be removed from the breeding pool for reason of failure to thrive, disease expression and mite number). Die off is partially attributable to extreme drought conditions, which the feral swarms manage with less resilence than the commercial queens.


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## pgayle (Jan 27, 2008)

I am finishing sixth summer treatment free. As my second (and last) Italian colony was starting to look poorly in 2009 or 2010 I bought two Russian queens and that turned the corner. I also bought a colony of unknown parentage that turned out to be excellent. I marked a daughter from her that lasted through two winters before she was superseded. Two more Russian/VSH queens the following year, and then a colony from a local treatment free beekeeper. It has worked out really well. It doesn't hurt that I live within flying distance of the treatment-free guy, so my queens "get lucky" more often than not, and bring home some good genetics to keep things mixed up. 

I don't graft. Mostly the bees raise their own queens. I have 8 to 12 in my yard. I rarely feed. I try to leave them plenty, but do sometimes feed splits or struggling colonies to give them a chance. 

I quit doing formal mite counts, but sometimes I will pull 10 drone pupae and get a rough percentage. Usually one or two drone pupae out of 10 will have mites. 

I use small cell foundation on the "can't hurt, might help" theory. Some of my colonies have screened bottom boards and some don't, and I am not sure it makes that much difference one way or the other. 

Winter losses have been minimal, but I have been lucky and am past due for a crash of some sort.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

• How long have you been treatment free?
Treatments were insufficient from 2004 until 2008, mite levels rising, totally treatment free since 2008. (=six years TF)

• How many colonies are you running?
I started 2001 with 150 normal size colonies and 70 nucs, now it is down to 80 normal size and 25 nucs. (reasons: bears, AFB, plus unable to make nucs out of the very slowly developing weaker hives in cold summers)

• Are you raising your own queens?
Yes, all of them, plus they are mated in isolation apiary (10 km radius no bees but my drone hives)
This practise might have come to an end, because of severe bear damages 2014.

• What would you say the key to your success has been in terms of management?
Takings grafts from the hives with lowest number of mites. In the years 2001-2008 it was the number of OAD dropped, since TF from 2008 evaluations are made for possible breeders by sugar roll tests.

Isolation matings with dronelines which have the lowest mite counts and best honey producing abilities.

Hybrid vigour is important. My stock is combination of Buckfast, old Finnish Italian( which is a mixture of Italian and Amm), Primorski, VSH Carnica and one South American line.

Bees must be left alone as much as possible. Brood areas must not be broken.

I don´t wash any equipment.

Epigenetics changes the expression of genes if we have the courage to stick tf for enough generations?


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Well
I am a hobbyist. I am not sure if I fit in definition of TF. I definitely teat all my girls with love and I am trying to help them when I know how. I am also trying do not interfere when it is not clear if I can do anything better than girls  I do not use any chemicals to "treat" my bees. This is a 5th (?) season I have bees. I heard many suggestions that non-treated beehive can survive only 3-4 seasons and than crashes from varroa. Unfortunately, my statistics somehow supports this dogma. When I was on vacation in Europe, something cause my bees to die in massive amount. Essentially, two beehives were full of dead bees when I back from vacation. I did not see any evidence (within my limited experience) of crash from varroa. Dead bees were in and around the beehive. There is no evidence of varroa on the comb and in the dead brood. Nevertheless, I lost 2 beehives out of 4, 50% loss. I guess, 4 seasons is enchanted number.

On the positive side, other beehives are doing great! 

I am using top bars (TBs) in Lang-size boxes or horizontal long-Lang. Before this recent tragedy, I felt that bees did great: they control queens, swarm into my nucs, co-exist with mites, produce honey etc. Because, I was not able to identify the problem in dead hives, I am going to continue in exact way I did before but with closer attention to any beehive issues. My main elements of bee-management are:
- minimal management;
- minimal disturbance for the nest
- limited control of varroa counts
- no medicinal treatments (so far, but I will treat if know that it will save a colony)
- natural cell-size
- fresh snow-white comb
- reduced entrances most of the time (much calmer)
- chekerboarding
- bees have enough honey for themselves, no sugar
- we do not pollinate almonds!
- my bees are partially africanized as any bee in the South.
- my bees maintained the feral stock.
- my bees normally know what they are doing.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

This will be my 6th winter. No chemical mite treatments ever, sugar dusted the second season, stopped adding Fum B. for nosema last season.

At the time of writing I have 64 colonies.

I have raised most of my own queens - this past summer I bought a VSH breeder queen out of curiosity.

I attribute my success to: 
Mel Disselkoen; Michael Palmer; Roland; the Northern Climate which enforces an extended brood break, sheer luck when I started; perhaps drone brood cutting - still evaluating that; Michael Bush - my success overwintering a TBH of his design gave me the courage to experiment in the face of a regional fixation on the double/triple deep overwintering system; Beesource - a go to community of disparaging, disparate, and sometimes desperate people who are generous in their opinions.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

> • How long have you been treatment free?


Been dabbling with TF for 13 years. TF in ernest for 7+ years. I need to be clear, I don't follow much of the philosophical dogma in the TF forum. For example, if I discover a colony that is running high mites they WILL be treated and then requeened with resistant stock. 



> • How many colonies are you running?


I'm hovering around 60 for the past two years, prior was averaging around 20-30.



> • Are you raising your own queens?


Absolutely. Not sure how anyone could be successful without doing their own queen rearing.



> • What would you say the key to your success has been in terms of management?


No magic bullets. No magical cell size, or foundation type. 90% of my colonies are on 5.4 plastic Rite Cell foundation, so that to me means that cell size is a non-issue. Three words: Genetics, selection, and persistence. Propagating the best resistant stock and culling dinks. Resistant stock is meaningless unless it produces good honey yields. Some years my springtime bees looked horrible, but they survived. Infusion of mite resistant stock has dramatically improved my bees. I'm not exclusively talking VSH, although VSH bees are very beneficial. There are other bees out there that just survive. It takes many years (at least at my pace) to make selections that lead to success.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I stopped all treatments 10 years ago when I found a single feral queen that showed significant mite tolerance. I purchased some queens from Purvis that I then used as drone sources to mate queens raised from my feral queen. I am currently down to 10 colonies but sold several to get local beekeepers started. One beekeeper has 5 colonies of my bees, another has 6, and a third has 2.

I purchased a few queens from Carpenter a couple of years ago. These are the only outside stock I've brought in since the Purvis bees. Carpenters queens have been mite tolerant, but just a tad less so than my own strain.

The only major problem I have with my bees is swarming which is significantly higher than I would like. I make splits from any strong colony early in the spring which limits but does not totally prevent swarming.

I deliberately pushed a large number of swarms out into the woods about 8 years ago. This resulted in feral colonies that act as a buffer between me and other beekeeper's managed colonies that are not mite tolerant. I credit this step with making my apiaries self-sustaining. I can raise queens with near 100% being mite tolerant enough to make it.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

pgayle said:


> I quit doing formal mite counts, but sometimes I will pull 10 drone pupae and get a rough percentage. Usually one or two drone pupae out of 10 will have mites.


A couple of years ago when I first started doing this. I was told finding this many mites on pupa indicated a serious infestation.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Let's get back to the tf success (or failure) stories. I love reading straightforward, specific, unvarnished accounts of tf experiences full of reality and free of dogma. Squarepeg in post #2, JWC's in #4, pgayle's #5, juhani's post #6 is awesome, Sergey, Adrian, astrobee, Dar, good job all for providing fact filled examples that people considering tf beekeeping can learn from. 
From the perspective of someone who, by most any yardstick, has enjoyed success in a more traditional beekeeping operation where treating is the norm, I often get pm's from people asking for advice and wanting to model their practices after mine. I'm not afraid to give specifics but I always qualify my advice by saying this is what has worked for me in my specific beekeeping climates. It's not all "good times and noodle salad" and results not only may vary, they probably will.


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

This is my 5th year and I have had very poor success . This winter I have wrapped my hives, used insulation and better ventilation and candy boards with the hope of some success. I have 12 hives and I do not raise any queens .We had an extremely cold winter last year and that did not help survival, However, I do have mites that that in my opinion has not been the issue, but rather at the end of the summer my queens seem to give out and perhaps I should have replaced them, and will try that next year along with raising my own queens from breeder stock.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

woodedareas said:


> at the end of the summer my queens seem to give out and perhaps I should have replaced them, and will try that next year along with raising my own queens from breeder stock.


most of my losses have been from apparent queen failure in the late fall/early winter as well. in some cases all of the bees have died out during winter and in other cases i find a small cluster with laying workers. i haven't found much mite frass or devitalized brood in these hives although i suspect mites are a contributing factor in the queens' failures as viruses have been found to cause ovarian damage:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016217


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

nice post jim. 

a good reminder that all beekeeping is local, driven by the specific goals, and your actual mileage may vary.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Agreed Jim. We're all in this together. No matter what approach we take.

Adam


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

IPM for 6 years. Low losses.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

• How long have you been treatment free?

Going into my 5th winter TX free.

• How many colonies are you running?

12 going into this winter, started with 1.

• Are you raising your own queens?

Yes for the last 2 years. I still bring in TX free queens from breeders in the NW.


• What would you say the key to your success has been in terms of management?

I would not say I have had success, so far it has been building, surviving and rebuilding. One winter I lost 7/8, and have a feeling that I will lose a lot this winter. I am still trying to find what works where I am, mostly by modifying my wintering set up and trying different genetics.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

How long treatment free?

Longer than there have been mites. We where all treatment free back then

Number of colonies?

over 400.

Raising your own queens?

No, we let the bees do that.

There is no key to success. Actually, of all the the issues from poor weather, CCD, and the most recent mystery poisoning in late September, mites are the least of our worries. 

crazy Roland


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

i guess i will chime in.

• How long have you been treatment free?
since i started in 2010

• How many colonies are you running?
five going into this winter

• Are you raising your own queens?
yah, any queens that i have purchased never made the cut

• What would you say the key to your success has been in terms of management?
my overwinter success since year 1 has been: 0/2, 1/3, 4/6, 2/2. IIRC, i heard/read somewhere that my state suffered 80% overall losses this year. i find it hard to believe it was actually that high but whatever.
Keys? formulate yourself a gameplan with what you think makes sense for YOU. and stick with it for at least a year, then adjust as necessary. its hard, but try not to overthink things. as much as you think you got them bees figured out, you dont know better than they do. i am an engineer and i think we inherently make the worst type of beekeepers. 
dont baby the bees, limited feeding. i didnt feed at all this year and only a little bit the previous spring. my first objective is to get them through winter. if you dont have bees come springtime, well you dont have much of an apiary. also, i dont mess with them much after labor day. i feel this gives them time to organize themselves and allow the population to moderate to what the bees feel they can support based on the ammount of resources i have left them. 
i only started making splits with queencells this year once i reached 100% overwinter success, even if it was only two. all packages failed, nucs 50%, swarms mostly made it. all of my colonies are pretty gentle with decent enough honey production so i picked the queen that has been with me the longest to make splits from.
part of my not-so-in-depth "business model" was to invest no more than half of what i make in honey sales back into the apiary, mostly equipment. keeping this in mind, i think i am at a point now where i can start slowly expanding my operation. i have plenty of people begging me for more honey. i started transitioning to foundationless this year and will be going to all mediums. so while i am happy to get 100% overwintered (and i dont expect this every year), i wouldnt say my methods have been entirely successful as i am still employing new aspects.
i will say i wish i had involvment with my local beeclub but they are very anxious to treat with lots of chemicals any chance they get. "you need to apply this that and the other thing at such and such times throughout the year or your bee will perish" kind of mentality. so i have distanced myself. 
one last thing i have found is to take youtube and the internet in general with a grain of salt. anybody with fancy painted boxes and a brand new veil and perty white suit can make a video. doesnt mean they should be preaching.
apologies if the long response is uncalled for but there you have it.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Well I am now down to 8, with 1 that is surely gone and a couple of maybes.


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## gunter62 (Feb 13, 2011)

Got my first hive in spring of 2010. Currently up to 18 including nucs. Have never treated. No losses last winter. 6 in, 6 out. I have purchased a couple of queens, but most are produced here using various techniques including grafting. I haven't purchased any packages or nucs since my first.

Honey crops have never been great as I focus primarily on increase. Since the second year I've always had a couple of supers, but am still working on learning the finer points of honey production. 

I think going into winter with more colonies than you think you want in the spring is a key. Also producing local queens. This winter may change my mind about my approach. I'll let you know in April!


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## hjon71 (Feb 25, 2013)

My experience is unique apparently. I have a hive that has been passed down twice now. My father got them from his older brother several years ago(at least 10) and I received them 2 years ago. The hive has never been treated for anything. 
My father never even opened the hive. It blew over in a storm once, he picked it up and put it back together. He just liked to sit out by the hive and watch them work. Is it possible they could have died out and another swarm moved in? Maybe, but he seemed pretty certain that didn't happen. Now that I have them I have replaced rotten boxes and cycled out all the old brood comb and still managed to get some honey. All while having only this one hive.


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## NCbeek (Mar 23, 2011)

I am going into my sixth season treatment free. Running eight colonies this year and have the idea I might get to twenty next year. I have been doing spring splits and letting them raise their own queens. However I have recently noticed several backyard colonies moved in. Some within 1/10 mile. Not impressed with the spring buildup of my queens but have had 99% overwintering success, which is why I have done this for so long. With unknown drones flying around I am thinking I will try buying some this year both to get a jump on spring flow and try some new blood and maybe better productions. In terms of success: I have attributed it to being the only beekeeper for several miles and watching the bees for unusual activity that helps catch problems early. Now that I am not alone around here things may have to change but I hope not.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

I just found this thread now that it is colder and I'm not outside all day.



Adam Foster Collins said:


> • How long have you been treatment free?


I started back with bees in 2009. I had kept bees from '73 until '95 when the mites finished them off. I didn't do any treating during that time because you didn't need to- until the early 90s!. I haven't treated since getting bees again. I started off the first year with several swarms from bait hives, a couple cutouts, swarm calls in the area, a couple VSH nucs, and a couple Russian nucs. I've been splitting like crazy every year. 

• How many colonies are you running?

Into winter with 55 ten frame production colonies and 85 nucs.

• Are you raising your own queens?

I do early splits on colonies that I like to keep their genetics going (they raise their own queens), and I graft from all the best colonies throughout the season. I raise queens from 4 families of local survivors, 3 families of Russian and Russian hybrids, and 3 families of VSH Carniolans.

• What would you say the key to your success has been in terms of management?

Splitting (strength in numbers), lucky that I found some good genetics (I've let a lot of bad genetics die out), I don't have to worry too much about pesticides in our area because there is not much agriculture. I had one winter when I lost 40%, the last two it has been 15%.


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