# Fire danger from smoker



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Maybe this should be on consumer reports. Perhaps it is already known, but I was quite surprised after a day of working the bees to find my smoker inside my greenhouse ablaze! Luckily it was sitting on my steel cart. I snatched it up and ran it out to the burn barrel where you see in this photo. It was dripping big clods of melted fire ball plastic from the flameing bellows. My whole yard is covered with shavings and those drippy fire clods were ridiculous . Had to go back with the hose and wet everything down.
I knew I must have sucked embers into the bellows and thought the interior false bottom must have slipped. After the it burned out, I looked closely and saw the false bottom was still in place and actually sits slightly below the hole for the bellows. 
Was this smoker recalled or something? It is a Mann Lake modle. I was done for the day and just happened to go back into the building one more time and caught it.










I use stove pellets in the smoker-and a bit of burlap is I am in need of good smoke.

Any suggestions on the best model or brand for replacement?









Certainly smokers are a fire hazzard by nature..They do get very hot and I am careful not to set it on anything dry or that could catch fire. Lord knows I have a few hive tops with black circular burns, LOL. But just did not expect it to be able to suck in embers into the bellows. My bad I guess.
And yes, the plastic was extremly flammable. At first the flames were 2' high.


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## beekeeperlady (Mar 25, 2009)

i have that model.. personally.. rubber and plastic that close to a heat source is asking for trouble.. i constantly watch mine.. im right now looking for a older type.. non plastic..


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

Im glad nothing worse happened. Steve


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I stopped using stove pellets because my smoker would spit out flaming missles into my hive. No doubt a smoldering pellet went into your bellow. The good thing about pellets is they smolder forever once they're lit. The bad thing about pellets is they smolder forever once they're lit.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Yep, I sitll find it hard to get that balance of packing the smoker enough to keep it cool but at the same time not to constantly have to pump the bellows to keep it going. Glad you didn't burn anything down Lauri. I think people like the Brushy Mtn. ones. I got one from Betterbee but saw some peeps said don't get their smoker. I find nothing wrong with the one I got from them but quality issues is why people said to avoid them.


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

Mann Lake sells both types and sells replacement old style wood bodied bellows.
Nothing burns like plastic!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Close call Lauri. Glad it wasn't worse. Don't totally blame the smoker manufacturers though. You shoulkd have stuffed the hole or holes before putting it away. I always stick a stick or some green grass in the blow hole before putting my smoker away in the steel box on the side of my truck. This will keep the smoker fuel from burning, reducing the flow of air thru the smoker.

If I really want to be sure it isn't going to burn, and I don't want to dump the smoker contents, I will stuff toilet paper, which is always in the truck, or a napkin between the bellows hole and the canister hole, plus plugging the top hole.

Dumping the smoker contents is another alternative. But you have to be careful there too and make sure the fire is out. I have burnt up some ground dumping a smoker and walking away. Too much excitement.

I like Dadants smokers the best. They have the best bellows and I like their cage too. I tend to hold the smoker between my knees when working hives. The cage keeps me from having burns on the insides of my knees. The hook works well for hanging onto an open hive. Otherwise I stand it on top oif a nearby hive. I don't usually put it on the ground, lest I step on it or kick it over.

Get yourself a large Dadant smoker to replace the one you burnt. Or, if you wish to go the frugle path(spell check please), get a replacement bellows for your Mann Lake smoker.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Well timed post Lauri. With so much of the country in a pretty severe drought one can't be careful enough. We use pellets exclusively but they must be topped with a handful of green grass (it's getting tougher to find all the time) and as Mark says use a stick in the blow hole to either reduce or eliminate air flow when not in use is a good idea. Keep a fire extinguisher handy. A 5 gallon bucket of water with a burlap bag or two soaking inside makes a great emergency kit to haul in the truck.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I agree with Mark, both on Dadant smokers quality and the need to put your smoker out and/or put it in a metal box after use.

I have a double layer of aluminum foil that conforms tightly to the smoke cone that I put on mine after use. I also have a wadded up page of an old phone book that fits tightly btw the bellows and inlet vent.

Then I lay the smoker on its side to eliminate the stack effect from helping it to keep going.

The metal box doesn't have to be fancy. I set mine in a stainless steel sink basin the home yard, but one of those round tins they sell popcorn in at Christmas works well, too and is relatively airtight.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thank you for the thoughts. Good advise. I usually just let my smoker burn itself out (My bees are at home) but will just empty the contents into the burn can if I am done. Duh..
I'll check out the dandant smokers. 
Some one gave me a very old Kelley model and it is surprisingly different and better than this one. Better draw and is easier to keep lit. But it is old and burned though in a sopt or two-so I still need to get another one. Thanks again,
Lauri


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I will echo what others have said on here about Dadant smokers, clearly the best in my mind. Occasionally when a smoker wont stay lit it is because the outlet tube at the bottom of the fire pot is plugged or restricted. It is almost impossible to diagnose unless you either remove the bellows and look in or pull the perforated floor out of the fire pot and then slide out the tube.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I like using wood pellets for smoker fuel. I start the smoker with pine needles, then add wood pellets and top that off with more pine needles. My smoker will stay lit as long as I need it. The pine needles on top keeps wood pellets from coming out the end when I tip the smoker down.

I have a six gallon can that looks like a small garbage can. It has an air-tight fitting lid. I got it for my wife since she cleans out our corn stove. The lid fits too tight for her to get it on and off easily. Stuffing green grass in the tip of the smoker and putting in in the can with the lid puts the smoker out quickly. One it cools I store smoker fuel and matches in the can. That way I either forget everything or nothing!

Tom


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

Lauri

Thanks for this post. I just replaced my bellows, but went with Mann Lake's traditional style. Was second guessing until now.

With the exception of plastic frames, very few beekeeping "innovations" stand the test of time.

I suggest calling Mann Lake for an exchange. Based on that picture, they may want to look at it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Not to be a wise A but why are you blaming the smoker? Do you pump the smoker with the top open? Do you pump the smoker while fiddling with the fuel? Was the smoker nozzle faced into the wind? How did the ember get into the bellows?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Doesn't everyone pump the smoker with the top open? 

Doesn't everyone pump the smoker while fiddling with the fuel? 

Is it often windy in greenhouses ? 

Do combustibles need embers inside of them to burn?


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## Beezly (Jun 25, 2011)

Wine cork in the spout works well. lasts a long time if you use one of the rubber ones from wine like barefoot or others. yeah, cheap wine, but after a couple glasses you don't care so much anymore.
BC- there you go using common sense again...


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## DamSutt1986 (May 26, 2012)

Crazy photos. My first thought was the drought and just had a grass fire in my town the other day. I leave my smoker on a concrete sidewalk in front of my house when I'm done. I almost always have a bottle of water with me, so I usually splash some water in there too. It puts the fire out and I only need half as much fuel next time as opposed to letting it all burn away without me using it.


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## willyC (May 6, 2010)

I rebuild old bellows with new leather, are there any companies out there that still offer leather and wood bellows?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Not to be a wise A but why are you blaming the smoker? Do you pump the smoker with the top open? Do you pump the smoker while fiddling with the fuel? Was the smoker nozzle faced into the wind? How did the ember get into the bellows?


I don't think anyone did anything wrong, Lauri or Mann Lake's Smoker manufacturer. That being said, I imagine embers from the canister must have gotten down threw the floor of the smoker, into the pipe between beelows and smoker and into the bellows. That, or perhaps more likely, the canister contents got so hot that the plasic parts of the bellows melted and caught fire. 

Either way, and not necassarily because of what happened to Lauri's smoker, I don't care for the Mann Lake Smoker bellows. If you had the Dadant and the Mann Lake smokers side by side, you could see the difference. Whether you would agree w/ my accessment or not.

Lots of people pimp the smoker w/ the top open. But this isn't what happened here, according to Lauri.
Lots of people pump the smoker while fiddling w/ the fuel. Not what Lauri did either.

I don't know why you are bringing up things not in evidence. She had finished working her bees and had set the smoker down, being thru w/ it.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Not to be a wise A


Even before I finished reading your first sentence, we disagreed.



Acebird said:


> Do you pump the smoker with the top open? Do you pump the smoker while fiddling with the fuel?


I really want to know how you light your smoker. This ought to be good.



Acebird said:


> Was the smoker nozzle faced into the wind?


Now I’ve got to check the wind direction before setting my smoker down…..aiyiyiyiy!
Ridiculous.


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

Just scrub the smoker down with a wire brush and hang a new bellows on it and you should be ready to go plus you will have a real good story to tell the newbees in a few years. It's the first time I've seen a smoker burn up and it makes me a little nervous about the plastic bellows I put on my Dadant as a replacement last year. The older leather one began to split and duct tape just didn't hold up for very long in the heat. I have always plugged the tip of my smoker at the end of the day with a piece of tapered dowel which stops the burning fuel. Glad to hear the fire didn't spread.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> That, or perhaps more likely, the canister contents got so hot that the plasic parts of the bellows melted and caught fire.


Not likely.


> Lots of people pimp the smoker w/ the top open. But this isn't what happened here, according to Lauri.
> Lots of people pump the smoker while fiddling w/ the fuel. Not what Lauri did either.


How do you know what was done when the smoker was lit?
Lots of people cross 4 lane divided hi-ways on foot, on skateboards, and even bicycles when they are not suppose to.

I suggested some things that might be done (by many) that could possible be the route cause of the bellows burning up. It doesn't look like this was the first time the smoker was lite so I am assuming it may not be a design problem. And I admit I could be wrong.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Not likely.
> 
> 
> How do you know what was done when the smoker was lite?
> ...


Not likely? In your opinion. Based on what? Experience? Knowledge of some sort? Apparently you have not had a smoker get so hot that it glows. If that is so, then I woulkd say that your experience is limited. Knowing what was used as smoker fuel, having had experience w/ what was used for fuel, I can easily imagine a smoker left alone getting hot enuf to burn so hot that it sets the bellow on fire, being plastic.

But, that's oinly my imagination based on my experience w/ smokers over the years. I am also sure that there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of these Mann Lake smoker which have not caught on fire.

By the way, the word is "lit", not "lite". Just thought you aught to know that. We're talking about lit smaokers, not lite beer.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> Now I’ve got to check the wind direction before setting my smoker down…..aiyiyiyiy!
> Ridiculous.


You can do what ever you like but if you are in an area where a forest fire could be a serious thing you might take the effort.

I use cardboard rolled up in my hand and set it a blaze with a stick match. Slip it down in the smoker and the natural draft will bring flames up to the top. Sprinkle some sawdust down through the webbing and it will put out the fire turning to solid smoke. Close the cover and puff to your hearts content. The lid will reduce the back draft that may suck an ember into the bellows. Most people would point the smoker in such a way that the wind would blow the smoke away from themselves because it reduces tearing. We can't control the wind and neither can the manufacturer of the smoker but most people are aware of the prevailing winds. But then again there are some people who could be considered burnt out light bulbs.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> But then again there are some people who could be considered burnt out light bulbs.


I couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> about lit smaokers


:scratch:

thanks for the correction.

If the smoker turns cherry red would that be a manufacturer defect or an operator defect?

I could use my smoker as a hibachi but I prefer to use it as a smoker.


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## DamSutt1986 (May 26, 2012)

On that note, anyone tried dropping a kabob or some hotdogs in the smoker before inspection?:scratch:


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird you are not a "wise A"...

Do you think Lauri is withholding information? Did she fail to mention the skateboarders rolling through the greenhouse with gasoline?


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## FANNBEE (Jun 19, 2007)

I remember reading that the number one insurance claim report from beekeepers was for fire.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

DamSutt1986 said:


> On that note, anyone tried dropping a kabob or some hotdogs in the smoker before inspection?:scratch:


No but occasionally fire crackers and smoke bombs have been known to find their way into some bee smokers about this time of year and no one ever seems to know who did it:shhhh:.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> Did she fail to mention ...


Second reference to "she". When I made that mistake awhile back he said I was too funny. Why has it occurred again?

I have a similar smoker too but it is an even light straw color from the grate to the lid. And yes I have seen smokers that are blue. I wonder how many bees are getting toasted or at least getting their hairs singed. Also make me wonder how many years of beekeeping it takes to get it right. Oh, that's right I got it right the first time or else mine would be blue.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...oarding-today-glad-I-did!&p=766781#post766781

I would think that Lauri is still a woman...



> Ace, you're funny. I never have heard of a man named Lauri. I thought you were a man, but now I am not so sure?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...oarding-today-glad-I-did!&p=766781#post766781
> 
> I would think that Lauri is still a woman...


LOL it is me that still has it backwords.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Acebird, I have become accustomed to your line of interrogation. All I can say is Dude, your mind works differently than mine. 

LOL, love you or hate you, you are always entertaining! 
Many times I have said ...WHAT???? and laughed out loud reading your posts.

I don't think Beesource would be the same without you.

A note for those that use this smoker, I imagine it would be fine if you stuck a piece of 1/8" hardware cloth between the large bellows inlet hole and the false bottom..helping to keep hot embers from sucking back into the bellows. An easy fix or preventive measure so this won't happen to you.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Well Ace, You are free to think what you want. but any device intended to make a fire in should contain that fire and not become the fire. The photo of it burning is enough to show it is faulty. It doesn't really matter why except to those trying to redesign it. That someone did not follow some long list of doing this or doing that is ridiculous. Did they hold their mouth just right also? Suppose that had been in her vehicle or setting on the ground next to her leg at the time it decided to burn. I blame the smoker because it is the smoker that is looking like a torch. It's not like this is some new technology or something. What works should be and is well known. No excuses to manufacture something that cannot handle the job.

Laurie, It is good that all it cost you was a smoker that you probably don't want to be using anyway. Hopefully they will be able to use your photos to figure out how to make a safer smoker. Glad you where not hurt and that you happened to return and find it burning when you did.

Edited in, Opps sorry Laurie if you are not female. With that name you are in my mind also. a pretty one at that so be proud.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> No excuses to manufacture something that cannot handle the job.


You don't think out of control fires have not been started with a Hibachi or gas grills? Nice when you can blame everything on the manufacturer. I wonder if you can get a refund if you don't fold your parachute right?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> LOL it is me that still has it backwords.


Maybe when you read Lauri, your brain reads Larry. That happens to me sometimes.

Lauri and Hardee were both men, weren't they?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When did this get turned around to blaming the manufacturer/designer or the user. I thought that Ms. Lauri, as folks in SC would refer to her, was simply bringing something she experienced to our attention and asking for recommendations for a possibly better, different, smoker.

Some folks are fighting about where to lay the blame, which is a futile argument. imo


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Not likely.
> 
> 
> How do you know what was done when the smoker was lit?
> ...



I couldn't have said it better myself.:applause:



BEE HAPPY Jim134


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> When did this get turned around to blaming the manufacturer/designer or the user.


When someone wrote


Acebird said:


> why are you blaming the smoker?


And then went on to list all sorts of ridiculous things she/he might have done to cause it. 


sqkcrk said:


> Some folks arfe fighting about where to lay the blame, which is a futile argument. imo


Amen Brother sqkcrk.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

*Some folks arfe fighting about where to lay the blame, which is a futile argument. imo*

Not if the issue is Mann Lake selling inadequate and dangerous smokers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Now we are going to argue about arguing?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Heard in another thread:

"My first thought would be to make some shade."

Sounds like good advice for this thread!


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## willyC (May 6, 2010)

Not a design flaw, a material flaw is what I see here. In an effort to keep the price down and combined with little or no experience with fire, what customarily was leather is now plastic. I work with fire every day, my gas forge can get to 2200 F, I would never wear plastic gloves, or clothing for that mater, in the shop. I use leather gloves lined with nomex or kevlar gloves so there are safe suitable materials out there.


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## Ted adams (Mar 20, 2012)

beemandan said:


> Even before I finished reading your first sentence, we disagreed.
> 
> 
> I really want to know how you light your smoker. This ought to be good.
> ...


. AGreat response, being nice ,stuff happens, we call them accidents. We all learned to maybe be careful with smokers after use, I will start putting mine inside a medal can after use, but it was nobody's mistake, it just happened


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Apparently you have not had a smoker get so hot that it glows. If that is so, then


One of my first painful lessons in beekeeping

"DON'T TOUCH THE SMOKER BODY WITH MY UNGLOVED FINGER WHILE/AFTER LIGHTING"


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I have modified my own dubious practices with the smoker. Thanks for the heads up. BTW, I don't blame the smoker design or materials, its a risk we all take with every use of any smoker. I do however, think there are some tricks to running a cooler smoker.


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## Ricky Bee (Apr 16, 2011)

I have never see an ember get sucked into the bellows, but I used to get flames sucked into the bellows and was afraid it was going to melt the plastic fake leather on the bellows. So I came up with a solution that not only fixes that issue, but also eliminates the need for the perforated can insert used in some smokers. I put a fluffed-up Scotch-Brite stainless steel scrubbing pad in the bottom of the smoker before adding the fuel. I find that it does an excellent job of allowing good airflow into the bottom of the stack of fuel to keep it going when not being pumped, and it also prevents flames from getting sucked into the bellows.


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

Sort of a side note to fire dangers.
Earlier in Spring, our area was under fire watch for an extended time period due to very dry conditions with almost no humidity.
When I help a friend with his bees in a remote yard, I keep a pressurized water extinguisher containing a dollop of Class A foam in my Blazer.
You never know when it might come in handy.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jbeshearse said:


> One of my first painful lessons in beekeeping
> 
> "DON'T TOUCH THE SMOKER BODY WITH MY UNGLOVED FINGER WHILE/AFTER LIGHTING"


Yeah, I did that w/ a smudge pot one time. Back in the olden days, when Municipal Water was being installed in our neighborhood, smudge pots were used to mark the ditches during the night. I took a tin can and set it on top of one, thinking I might put out the flame. I was curious. I was also not very smart at the time. I went to pick up the can and burned my fingers badly. But not twice.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> LOL, love you or hate you, you are always entertaining!
> Many times I have said ...WHAT???? and laughed out loud reading your posts.


If I can extend your life by two minutes I did my part.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Allen said:


> I keep a pressurized water extinguisher containing a dollop of Class A foam in my Blazer.


Sorta sounds like one of those oxymoron things...keeping a fire extinguisher in a Blazer.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ricky Bee said:


> I have never see an ember get sucked into the bellows, but I used to get flames sucked into the bellows and was afraid it was going to melt the plastic fake leather on the bellows.


A one second flame would not do it.

I want to know why everyone assumes the plastic ignited before the wood.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

One last comment from me, then I'll leave it alone. In the photo it looks like...and I believe was commented on earlier....that the base of the fire screen is below the level of the air inlet. I can't believe that is a good design. I just double checked my Dadant and its is well above.


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

beemandan said:


> Sorta sounds like one of those oxymoron things...keeping a fire extinguisher in a Blazer.



:lpf:


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

This is a simple case of the smoker being placed too close to a 5-gallon bucket during an approaching hurricane. The significant wind generated by the approaching storm fanned the embers in the smoker (enhanced by the direction in which the smoker was pointed), the fanned embers along with the aerodynamic qualities of the 5-gallon bucket caused the plastic (same material as the bucket?) bellows to burst into flames. 

Yes, clearly a case of fivegallonbucketitis.

Ed


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I want to know why everyone assumes the plastic ignited before the wood.


What wood?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The wood that the bellows is made of.


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## DamSutt1986 (May 26, 2012)

Intheswamp said:


> This is a simple case of the smoker being placed too close to a 5-gallon bucket during an approaching hurricane. The significant wind generated by the approaching storm fanned the embers in the smoker (enhanced by the direction in which the smoker was pointed), the fanned embers along with the aerodynamic qualities of the 5-gallon bucket caused the plastic (same material as the bucket?) bellows to burst into flames.
> 
> Yes, clearly a case of fivegallonbucketitis.
> 
> Ed


This guy, clearly has a head on his shoulders. I'm glad someone finally stepped up and used some common sense :applause: 

That was the first post past the OP in this thread was worth reading


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> The wood that the bellows is made of.


I don't think there is any wood in a Mann Lake smoker bellows.


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## toomanyhandles (Jun 24, 2009)

Acebird said:


> A one second flame would not do it.
> 
> I want to know why everyone assumes the plastic ignited before the wood.


In engineering terms:
Probably as they are familiar with both the melting and flash points of typical "plastics" vs "wood".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

toomany, don't talk engineering terms to an engineer, please.


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## toomanyhandles (Jun 24, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> toomany, don't talk engineering terms to an engineer, please.


lol. I find that the best way sometimes to let them know that they have their numbers bass-ackwards.

I spent 3 min of my life (AGES in interwebs time) trying to find a nice table to lmgtfy that showed a comparison between the two types of materials. Oh well : )


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks for the chuckle, too many.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I think I know the cause of the fire, but I am too busy working on improving the wheel to detail it at this time. I apologise for my lack of time, but I think the break through on the wheel deal is near.


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## willyC (May 6, 2010)

Acebird said:


> The wood that the bellows is made of.


Will ignite well after plastic, it would probably only smolder anyway (the wood), just a well educated observation based on real life experience.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

I had quite an experience last week with a smoker. I use Kelley's large smoker, and use cardboard for fuel. I was at an outyard placing honey supers and doing routine inspections. Anyway, the smoker seemed to have gone out, and did not relight when I puffed the bellows. I opened the lid and poked around in there with my hive tool. I saw a few glowing embers and proceeded to give it several strong puffs to try to get it burning again. A bunch of ashes quickly flew out and instantly lit the dry grass, and it took two hours to finally get the flames under control. It destroyed an acre of prairie, and I lost nine double deep hives. It taught me a lesson not soon to be forgotten. Gotta be careful with those smokers; it's easy to forget that you are actually working with fire.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lazy shooter said:


> I think I know the cause of the fire, but I am too busy working on improving the wheel to detail it at this time. I apologise for my lack of time, but I think the break through on the wheel deal is near.


When the break thru occurs, don't run over your smoker w/ it.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

westernbeekeeper said:


> and I lost nine double deep hives.


Guess that means that you have to update your signature line!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

westernbeekeeper said:


> It destroyed an acre of prairie, and I lost nine double deep hives.


You are pretty lucky at that. ....the way things are burning out west.


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

The false bottom being lower than the air hole is probably the cause, but I do think some fuels being used now like wood pellets, which are designed to make heat and not cool smoke may just be too hot to safely use in a smoker (unless Lauri bought pellets from a beesupply co. specifically for smoker fuel in which case the pellet manufacture could have some liability/blame). 

If a smoker is designed for certain max sustained temps based on using card board, pine needles burlap etc. a fuel like wood pellets may just put the heat range over the limit and expose the bellows to too much prolonged radiant heat .


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't think there is any wood in a Mann Lake smoker bellows.


I bought mine from BetterBee and it looks similar. Mine has two wooden plates with the plasticized fabric stapled between the boards. I assumed the Mann Lake was the same. So if it is not wood what is it? Isn't the Dadant one wood?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I bought mine from BetterBee and it looks similar.


Is the surface of the fire grate above or below the air inlet on yours?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>I use stove pellets in the smoker-and a bit of burlap is I am in need of good smoke
>Lord knows I have a few hive tops with black circular burns, LOL.

I have kept bees for 43 years and never burned a smoker hot enough to burn hive tops. I would blame the fuel used and operator error more than the smoker construction. Hot smoke is not "good smoke".


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

willyC said:


> I rebuild old bellows with new leather, are there any companies out there that still offer leather and wood bellows?


And I thought I was the only one. In todays age not many people "fix" items anymore. 

Mike


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

odfrank said:


> I use stove pellets in the smoker-and a bit of burlap is I am in need of good smoke. Lord knows I have a few hive tops with black circular burns, LOL.


Lauri is wrong on the circular burns. They're not burns, they are the black resin used to compact the pellets that melt from the smoker and drip all over. Once you tip your smoker it runs out. That's another reason I stopped using pellets. I don't know if all pellet makers use it but the pellets you buy from Mann Lake certainly do.

Correct me if I'm wrong Lauri but I believe this is the Mann Lake smoker you used. (Model # HD540)

http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/page60.html

As you can see, Mann Lake also carries wood bellows.


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

Those MannLake smokers always looked cheap to me. I worried that the plastic may crack, but never thought about a fire. There are fire retardant and heat resistant plastics out there. I assumed that is what they were using. 

I also plug my smoker up with a cork when done and leave it sit on my tarmac until completely cold. I use an old ammo box for transporting in the car while hot. So far so good.

Now what did MannLake say about this incident? I hope you did send them the pictures, and I feel it is only good customer support to respond to you with either a replacement part or a coupon towards other purchases. 

I personally use the one from Dadant and can't complain.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I bought mine from BetterBee and it looks similar. Mine has two wooden plates with the plasticized fabric stapled between the boards. I assumed the Mann Lake was the same. So if it is not wood what is it? Isn't the Dadant one wood?


I have a Dadant with wood but the fabric looks to be fake leather like vinyl or something like that. I'll have to look closer when I use it again.


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

The Dadant is wood with some sort of vinyl product. It does hold up well considering that I store mine in the carport year round. It has withstood -18 degrees and as high as 120 degrees. It get hot out there under the metal roof. So far the material is doing fine.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I clean my Dadant smoker with a torch to burn all the carbon build up off. When I do this, the smoker sometimes catches fire briefly near the bellow material but it has never burned or caught fire so I'm happy with the material used.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Is the surface of the fire grate above or below the air inlet on yours?


erds are, but I imagine there is a spring inside
I don't have enuf experience w/ Mann Lake smokers to know, but, I can't believe that the grate would be below the air inlet. If it were, what would be the purpose of the grate.

Dadant smoker bellows are wood, leather, rimmed w/ sheet metal. I don't know what their innerds look like, but I imagine there is a spring in there.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> erds are, but I imagine there is a spring inside


Translate please?


sqkcrk said:


> I can't believe that the grate would be below the air inlet. If it were, what would be the purpose of the grate.


Exactly my thinking…but his/her (Lauri) photo clearly shows that it isn’t completely above.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"innerds" = insides


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> "innerds" = insides


There's a spring in your smoker's innerds? How does that work?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Maybe the picture shows the "springed" feet on the grate holding it half and half over the bellow blow tube hole, allowing a burning pellet to enter the bellows. The grate is sitting to low. Maybe the springed feet are too short. The grate should sit above the tube.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> There's a spring in your smoker's innerds? How does that work?


Inside the bellows. I was writing about the bellows.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> I was writing about the bellows.


I'm sure glad you cleared that up. I was beginning to wonder......


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> "innerds" = insides


Well, actually, it's innards... 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medi...gQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNEoKUCAkSU7JHpnrhAzQS_pkJ02QA


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

odfrank said:


> The grate should sit above the tube.


I sure am glad that someone finally got it.....
I couldn't figure out any other way to explain it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BeeCurious said:


> Well, actually, it's innards...
> 
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/medi...gQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNEoKUCAkSU7JHpnrhAzQS_pkJ02QA


Yeah, but you knew what I meant, right? How many times have I heard that?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> but, I can't believe that the grate would be below the air inlet. If it were, what would be the purpose of the grate.


 The purpose of the grate is to allow the ash to fall away from the burning fuel so it doesn't go out. No different than any other grate in a wood stove or fireplace. The grate will not stop burning embers from falling in the bottom of the can and I don't think the grate has to be totally above the port to work. Lauri, did you ever have a problem getting the smoker to work?
I did look at mine and it is at the top edge of the port hole but I don't think that is a problem. I modified my grate with thin strips of metal so it doesn't turn over or come out when I dump the contents. It was a challenge to get it out to check the height.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I know what the grate is for. It is to keep the fuel elevated above the air tube so it doesn't block the air tube and so embers don't get into the air tube and bellows. It odes effectively keep ash and embers from falling to the floor of the smoker.

You don't see ash and embers having access to the airtube as a problem? I do.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I bought mine from BetterBee and it looks similar. Mine has two wooden plates with the plasticized fabric stapled between the boards. I assumed the Mann Lake was the same. So if it is not wood what is it? Isn't the Dadant one wood?


:lpf::lpf::lpf::lpf:

This is a MANN LAKE Smoker Did you not read the first post.



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I know what the grate is for. It is to keep the fuel elevated above the air tube so it doesn't block the air tube and so embers don't get into the air tube and bellows. It odes effectively keep ash and embers from falling to the floor of the smoker.
> 
> You don't see ash and embers having access to the airtube as a problem? I do.


Arguing with an engineer?

You got it all wrong on this one Mark. Ash and embers smaller than the size of the holes in the grate will let them fall to the bottom.

What is the air tube but a drilled hole in a board. Under normal operation the bellows cannot suck air from the canister. It is separated by some distance which will draw air from around the outside of the canister. It can however push air into the canister because of the focused jet (the air tube). In order for smoke, embers or ash to enter the air tube it must be first pushed out of the can by some back-draft. It is virtually impossible to suck anything out of a container with one hole. There has to be another hole to let air in. The nozzle is the other hole so plug it and the fire goes out. I even use a wooden stick and it won't catch fire. BTW you can't effectively blow into a canister with only one hole. You need the other hole to let air out.

The Dadant smoker has the exact same access for ash and embers to enter the airtube. If you point the nozzle into the wind, essentially creating a back draft at the same time you release the bellows it will suck as much ash or embers as any bellows driven smoker. So the next time you replace a bellows on a Dadant smoker look inside and you will see how careful or careless you have been with your smoker.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Then how come the only thing I find in my smoker below the perferated false floor, raised above the air tube, and in the tube itself creosote? Never ash. How does that creosote get in there?

Don't you think that if burning material has access to the tube, as it appears the photo Lauri provides it illustrates is so, that embers could get into the tube and under the right conditions, backdraft as you mentioned, some embers could get to the bellows and catch fire?

Interesting to me is that Lauri had her camera handy enough to photograph the burning smoker. Is your camera in your pocket at all times Lauri? Maybe it's your phone?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> The Dadant smoker has the exact same access for ash and embers to enter the airtube. If you point the nozzle into the wind, essentially creating a back draft at the same time you release the bellows it will suck as much ash or embers as any bellows driven smoker. So the next time you replace a bellows on a Dadant smoker look inside and you will see how careful or careless you have been with your smoker.


The same access? I don't think so. But, I would have to see the two side by side. The Dadant airtube is a pipe which extends about two inches into the canister and extends about 1/2inch out from the canister. Fromn the photo, the Mann Lake smoker doesn't actually have a tube. I don't know what one would call the opening in the Mann Lake smoker. Maybe I will have to buy one and do a comparison.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

As someone who uses smokers countless thousands of hours I can attest that ash and such collecting below the elevated floor isn't a major problem in smoker use. It's function is somewhat different than a fire grate in a stove in that regard. Usually what little bit sifts below them will easily sift back out when dumping and cleaning out the smoker before the next lighting. Occassionally, of course, it may become necessary to pull the floor out and clean under it but not often.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Anybody have a photo of this arrangement in the Dadant smoker? This is something complete different than the smokers I have seen.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Then how come the only thing I find in my smoker below the perferated false floor, raised above the air tube, and in the tube itself creosote? Never ash. How does that creosote get in there?


Cresote is a product of incomplete [wood] combustion., and forms at relatively low temperatures. The gasses condense into a liquid when the gasses are cooled by the "chimney" walls. The liquid can then run down the walls of the "chimney". The smoker is a combination firebox and chimney. Those liquids can flow to the bottom of the smoker, below any grate, and harden. The link below is in reference to a woodstove, but the effect is the same in a smoker.



> The gases leave the burning wood with the smoke. If the smoke is cooled below 250 degrees F, the gases liquefy, combine, and solidify, forming creosote. Creosote takes several forms, all bad. As a liquid, it can run down the insides of pipes and chimneys, oozing out of any openings. It can form a hard layer coating the insides of pipes and chimney liners. It can form into a fluffy substance that plugs pipes and breaks off and falls down, filling low spots in piping. It is the cause of most chimney fires and the main reason chimneys and pipes have to be cleaned and inspected periodically.
> http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/creosote_from_wood_burning_causes_and_solutions/


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, there you go. Not enough experience w/ alternate smoker designs.

My discription wasn't good enough?

It looks like this. A canister w/ a hole in it near the bottom, w/ a tube which extends into the canister about 2 inches and extends out of the canister about 1/2 inch. The perferated floor is above this tube. The bellows is on the outside, of course, w/ the hole facing the tube.

I wish I could illustrate it better. Maybe someone else can.

Is it possible that sometimes practical experience in an industry is more informative than an understanding of how things work in theory according to what one learns in a classroom?


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

Are the Kelley smokers made by Dadant? I need to order a new one and they look the same.

Charles


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> So the next time you replace a bellows on a Dadant smoker look inside and you will see how careful or careless you have been with your smoker.


OK. I'm still on my first original bellow that is 35 years old, but in about 15 more years I'll be sure to check it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rail said:


> Are the Kelley smokers made by Dadant? I need to order a new one and they look the same.
> 
> Charles


It is entirely poissible that Kelley makes Dadant's smokers. At one time, when there were only a small handful of equipment producers, one or two companys made the foundation for a number of the others. So, when it comes to tinware, maybe there are only a couple of makers of smokers for the rest of the industry. 

The two smokers, which were bought from a bee supply company in NY, I helped some friends w/ last week were quite flimsy w/ bellows which seemed light and not well built. No name on them, but I suspect they were Chinese made.

Me too Barry. I usually have to replace the smoker before I have to replace a bellows. It gets lost or run over by a truck or Bobcat or something. I have two bellows for my smokers on the shelf in my office. Had them for years.


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## kincade (Feb 3, 2011)

rail said:


> Are the Kelley smokers made by Dadant? I need to order a new one and they look the same.
> 
> Charles


Yes, they are according to kellys. Just different branding marks.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> OK. I'm still on my first original bellow that is 35 years old, but in about 15 more years I'll be sure to check it.


That one appears as though it was made to have a water jacket around it, maybe just a tool box. The back of the bellows also appears in the photo to be a greater distance from the can. May explain the tube. The down side of this one would be weight and does not appear to be stainless.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> That one appears as though it was made to have a water jacket around it, maybe just a tool box. The back of the bellows also appears in the photo to be a greater distance from the can. May explain the tube. The down side of this one would be weight and does not appear to be stainless.


What are you refering to? "That one ..." Which one? "The back of the bellows also appear in the photo to be a greater distance from the can." Which photo? A greater distance from the can than what smoker? What explains the tube? "The downside Of" which one?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ace -

Water jacket on a smoker? Really? Try asbestos lined tin. There is no downside to this smoker. I could care less about stainless. It doesn't have to look pretty, just produce smoke. How long do you need a smoker to last? The oldests ones still in service are not stainless. Weight, I'd be more concerned about the weight your lifting in boxes and comb than the weight of any smoker. My smoker spends more time sitting on something than it does in my hands. Do you hold yours all day long? Do you have a neck strap it hangs from?










Notice the quality of this one.


















See how well preserved all that resin keeps that tin!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mark, you can't see Barry's photo? You do not see that my quote is from Barry's post?

Barry quality is measured by different criteria today. Big, heavy and bulky does not mean quality anymore.

For instance, my cheap smoker is stainless. Most people would equate stainless better than tin. I would also say lighter weight is an advantage over heavy. The average newbee does not have the burly hands and strength of a seasoned bee keeper.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

ralittlefield said:


> Guess that means that you have to update your signature line!


I made several splits, not just to make up for it; but because I was already planning to. So it was convenient to make some splits.  So my signature is still up to date.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Mark, you can't see Barry's photo? You do not see that my quote is from Barry's post?


When I saw Barry's Post it did not have a photograph attatched to it. So, I did not know you were refering to what you saw in a photograph. Sorry. Thanks.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Barry, when I look at the photo of your bellows, I see a second hole. Is that an air inlet?
It would seem like a smart idea.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The hole near the base of the bellows is where the air in the bellows comes out. The hole on the face of the back of the bellows is where the air enters the bellows. There is a diaphram which allows air to enter but not exit.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Correct, Mark.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

About a month ago I retired a 10 year old Mann Lake smoker. The hinge was broken and the bellows were leaking so I went ahead and bought a new Dadant. I just looked at the Dadant and it has the second hole for air in…I’d never looked before. The old Mann Lake….one hole.
I’m betting that Ace’s only has one hole…air in/air out….and he will try to convince us that it’s a design improvement. Any takers?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Who reinvented the bellows. Bellows have always had a hole for the air to enter and a hole for it to exit by. At least the ancient ones I have seen in Forges and illustrations of ancient forges.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Who reinvented the bellows.


Some engineer, I'm sure. He had to cut a penny off of the manufacturing cost.
I can say that....I was an Electrical Engineer in my earlier life.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It is not just a hole it is the valve that increases cost too. Now is there a valve on the exit hole? That makes two valves. if it doesn't have that second valve the first one is a joke. I don't see that second valve on the lower hole in Barry's photo. Yes, if you are paying for something you don't need than it is a design improvement.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do you know anything about Blacksmith Forge bellows? I don't think you will find a valve on the exit hole. But I have never built one, so I could be wrong.

Where would the valve be on a smoker bellows exit hole? This is getting rediculous.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I was right....his only has one hole.
Mark...it has been ridiculous for a long time.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)




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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It would be a flap over the hole on the outside so no air could go in the bellows. Look at a squeeze ball transfer pump. Any pump for that matter.

The problem with a flap on the exit hole is it would misdirect the air. There could be a ball check valve inside the bellows but that would really be over the edge. The point is if the exit hole is far enough away from the inlet port of the smoker you don't need two holes or any valves.
You can make the inlet hole much much larger than the exit hole so most of the air will go in the inlet hole but if you do not have a valve on the exit hole air will go in it. The only way you can stop it is with a valve.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Alright,
Looking at a Dadant Bellows not currently on a smoker, the bellows has two holes on the board which faces the canister. The hole which is about center on this side is about the size of a dime. One can see a piece of leather on thew inside of this hole. When the bellows is compressed, air shoots out the small hole in the center but close to the bottom edge of the bellows. This hole is about the size of a pencil.

When the bellows is compressed the leather on the inside of the larger hole keeps air from coming out of it. When released the air flows in thru this hole.

There seems to be no valve inside the smaller hole.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

About the only thing I have gleaned from this thread so far is that Barry has a neat smoker and he must take care of it pretty well. Smoker bellows last about 6 months in our outfit.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I have two bellows for my smokers on the shelf in my office. Had them for years.


Mark,
Can't just picture you in an "office." Nope, can't do it......


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I have an office. Not that I spend a lot of time at a desk. I have a laptop.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> When the bellows is compressed the leather on the inside of the larger hole keeps air from coming out of it. When released the air flows in thru this hole.


No doubt it does but with no valve on the pencil size hole air is still going in when it is released. Put a lit candle or match in front of the hole and watch the flame get drawn toward the hole when you release. Notice that distance makes a big difference.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Apparently it works as well as it needs to or a change in design would have been made a while ago. So what if a little air goes in the small hole. It doesn't seem to be a problem. If both holes were the same size, would an equal volume of air enter by both holes? I'm thinking note, since the place where the small hole is located is more narrow than where the larger hole is located.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Sounds like another "Mine is bigger than yours" contest


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## Sharpbees (Jun 26, 2012)

&4at could have turned out so much worse. I use the end of an old broom handle that I trimmed down to fit the top hole and put the smoker in a metal ammo box. The box is air tight once latched and was cheaper than the smoker boxes sold by beekeeping equipment suppliers. Also never hurts to have a small extinguisher on hand with things being as dry as they are this year.


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## willyC (May 6, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you know anything about Blacksmith Forge bellows? I don't think you will find a valve on the exit hole. But I have never built one, so I could be wrong.
> 
> Where would the valve be on a smoker bellows exit hole? This is getting rediculous.


There is no valve on the exit, there is an intake, often leather a flap on the inside of a hole in the body of the bellows.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

snl said:


> Sounds like another "Mine is bigger than yours" contest


It isn't bragging if it is true.


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## willyC (May 6, 2010)

Stainless (over rated) newish, Tin & copper, both between 75 and 100 years old, only one has an auxiliary intake, leather flapper. All work fine according to me and the bees.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> No doubt it does but with no valve on the pencil size hole air is still going in when it is released.


So what? When the "intake" hole is twice the size of the "out" hole, it doesn't take an engineer to figure out most of the air will fill the bellows from the intake hole. About the only thing I have gleaned from this thread so far is that Jim thinks I have a neat smoker. I feel honored!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

WOW, Been busy the last few days and am amazed at the number of replies to this thread.
Acebird has been his usual self and Mark has been the one this time to take the bait! Hee hee
Dare I post more photos?
Here you go.

Here is what is left of the Bellows. It was the soft plastic material on the sides that was flammable. The rest of the construction was a steel frame and hard plastic or PVC. 
No way to salvage any of this.









Making a home made one would be neat..nice REAL leather nice upholstery tacks and a nice grained hardwood. Maybe this winter when I get a break I'll try it.
Here's another photo you can see the design of the grate:










And a more clear photo of how it sits in the smoker:










I'll buy a replacement bellows and fix this one for a spare. Putting a piece of 1/8" hardware cloth in front of the hole to help prevent embers from entering the bellows. I ordered the wood bellows..not this flame thrower one. 
It would just be nice to raise up the grate above the hole though. Any ideas? How about running some long screws through it and making the legs longer?

But after using my old Kelley smoke cloud (Someone gave me) I'll never use the Mann lake one again. I think it was Barry that said it was not burn but creosote drippings that made the black circles on the hive tops. He was right, now that I look at it. The Mann Lake model was always hard to keep lit and would normally go out with plenty of fuel in it.
The Kelley smoker was easy to light(Same method-propane torch on pellets) and had a nice little glow of embers in the bottom..right where the fire should be. Lots of room for smoke material on top of that for a cool smoke..And it stayed lit. Just plain draws better. And the design is as it should be. I am actually glad my old smoker bit the dust. 

And as far as watching the wind, Acebird. I don't know how I could have forgotten! I learned that many years ago from Jim Crocie. 
Common' sing along with me now. 

You don't tug on superman's cape
you don't spit (or face your smoker) into the wind
You don't pull the mask off the ol lone ranger
And you don't mess around with....ACEBIRD
A-do-in -do do do do do-in do do do

And Yes Mark, I keep my camera in my back pocket every day. Between the horses and bees there is a Kodak moment every day. Don't want to miss it and I am fast with my camera. I just wish I had taken a pic of the original flames. 

I did email Mann Lake just to let them know I had a problem, have not heard back yet. Not looking to place blame or get something free. But if there is a design problem they should know about it.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> Someone had an idea of just putting steel wool in the bottom..easy fix.




Light a match to steel wool and see what happens...


Oh! be sure to take pics.....


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

My husband said touch my DeWalt battery to steel wool and see what happens. No thanks. I've done enough damage for this week.

Benjamin, I'm so glad you're OK. Sorry about your fire.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I bought one of those Mann Lake smokers once. I only used it for a short time. I called it my Fisher-Price smoker.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

You know, really I love Mann Lake. Great service, lots of products, free shipping. Not trashing them, but if they gave me another smoker free I would only keep it as a spare and still buy a Kelley or Dadant.( Knowing Mann Lakes service I half expect them to offer me a free one.) 

I think the Dadant and Kelley smokers are the same are they not? They sure look the same online.
I also like the actual hindge on the lid of the older Kelley, Man Lake's just has a flap thing I always fought.


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## willyC (May 6, 2010)

I buy and use vintage and rebuild, if needed.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

willyC said:


> I buy and use vintage and rebuild, if needed.
> View attachment 2466


I don't think, even on this forum, anyone will dispute the days before 'Made in China' were beyond the best.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I would suggest that you buy the tall Dadant with the heat shield and guard. 

Mine hasn't been babied ...









I haven't measured its orifices... or measured the puffs of air. I put combustibles in, and smoke comes out.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Lauri,
you could improve the Mann Lake smoker by elevating the grate a little higher so the air intake is below it. Then it should work just fine, I woulkd think.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> I would suggest that you buy the tall Dadant with the heat shield and guard.
> 
> Mine hasn't been babied ...
> 
> ...


Blue on the bottom and leaking creosote on the top. Yours could be the next flame thrower.

Lauri, you are not interested in saving it so just pack it up and send it to me and I will fix it for another newbee.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> About the only thing I have gleaned from this thread so far is that Barry has a neat smoker and he must take care of it pretty well





Barry said:


> About the only thing I have gleaned from this thread so far is that Jim thinks I have a neat smoker.


You guys are really just saying this for humor but I think folks shouldn't sell this thread short.
I’ve gleaned that, even from reputable suppliers, all smokers are not created equal….. And some have designs that make for a significantly more dangerous device.
I used a Mann Lake for ten years and never noticed. It was only a matter of convenience that I replaced it with a Dadant.
I think it has been a good lesson…..it just took a bit or wrangling to get to the conclusion.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> If both holes were the same size, would an equal volume of air enter by both holes?


So long as neither had a flap valve. The flap valve would be resistance so the one with out would bring in more air. That is why it has to be much, much larger to be effective.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Dan: sure I am trying to inject a little humor and I am also trying to be patient because I understand a lot of people are just learning about smokers and how they work. Mann Lake is a wonderful company with great customer service but their smokers have always been a bit of a head scratcher to me. First of all the construction of the Mann Lake fire pot just isn't as good as a Dadant. Secondly the new Mann Lake catalog now lists a wood bellow "back by popular demand" hmmmmmm. Thirdly, and most importantly smoker safety is overwhelmingly the responsibility of the user.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Thirdly, and most importantly smoker safety is overwhelmingly the responsibility of the user.


Amen.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> lot of people are just learning about smokers and how they work.


Myself included, it seems. I just never paid any attention to the design. Comparing my old Mann Lake with my new Dadant...and I am amazed at the important differences. 
And I hate to taint Mann Lake....I buy from them regularly too.
I always considered myself pretty careful with smokers. Working in dry grass in the middle of a drought ridden summer...not uncommon here. Several times a year, I remove the bellows and burn off the built up creosote with a propane torch. I put a stopper in the smoker and close it inside a galvanized pail when travelling between beeyards. It never crossed my mind that one 'brand name' smoker would have a more dangerous design than the others. I understood flimsy material. I've seen any number of 'cheap' smokers. But the basic firebox/bellow design....whoda thunk?
A genuinely important thread for new and some of us slower, older beekeepers...in my opinion.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

IMHO, the Dadant Model M009281 with heat and finger shield is the best one "out there." Any other opinions?


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

You got me to looking. I've got a Kelley Smoke Cloud 4x10 and have been very well pleased with it...especially after figuring out how to get these wood pellets lit (had been using pine straw previously and it smoked great but has that pine burning smell to it inch. Anyhow, this Kelley's model and the Dadant that you listed above are dead ringers for one another EXCEPT for that solid shield between the bellows and smoke chamber on the Dadant model (and not on the Kelleys). If I had to do it over again...I'd go with the Dadant model but thankfully I haven't had an issue so far not having that added shield. For a buck and a half that's a nice mod on the Dadant.

Dadant Model M009281 $41.50








Kelley Smoke Cloud w/(wire)Shield $40.00








Best wishes,
Ed


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Lauri,
> you could improve the Mann Lake smoker by elevating the grate a little higher so the air intake is below it. Then it should work just fine, I woulkd think.


Good idea Mark. You could drill a hole in the middle of the grate, run a machine screw through the hole and put a nut and lock washer on either side of the grate and tighten the nuts down at the right height. This would elevate the grate above the intake hole resting on the screw. The bottom portion of the screw would rest on the floor of the smoker.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I was thinking more like putting something else down in the bottom of the smoker for the grate to sit on, maybe a large mouth canning jar lid ring. You'd have to cut a notch in it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

He, he, he, the tinkers at work...


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

We need a show us your smoker thread...


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Better yet, get a tin can and punch some holes in the bottom, then run the machine screw through the tin can bottom elevating the bottom of the can with nuts on each end and tighten just above the blow hole.

What do you think Ace, my idea or Marks?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

woodguyrob said:


> We need a show us your smoker thread...


Hey, FYI, I just started a thread on this.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Charlie B said:


> Better yet, get a tin can and punch some holes in the bottom, then run the machine screw through the tin can bottom elevating the bottom of the can with nuts on each end and tighten just above the blow hole.
> 
> What do you think Ace, my idea or Marks?


Why not take a tin can, say a catfood can, drill holes in it like the grate and set it inside the canister so the grate is above the air hole or tube.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Why not take a tin can, say a catfood can, drill holes in it like the grate and set it inside the canister so the grate is above the air hole or tube.


Great idea!


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Everybody's going at it the wrong way!!! What you should do is get a large spaghetti sauce can. Take the grate out of the old smoker, drop it in the can and punch a hole in the side of the can just below the level of the grate. Shove a piece of metal pipe in the hole. Make a cone out of some sheet metal. Punch some holes along the edges of the can and the cone for a couple of inches. Take some bread bag twisters and make a "hinge" for the cone. Drill a hole in the side of the cone and insert a bolt and tighten down with a nut (ya gotta have a handle for the cone). Next, simply attach your new bellows so the blow hole lines up with the pipe you shove in the hole in the can.

Hey, this engineering business ain't hard at all!!! 

You're welcome!
Ed


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Charlie B said:


> What do you think Ace, my idea or Marks?


I told Lauri I would fix it...

For someone who doesn't have a spot welder drill three small holes in the side of the smoker 120 degrees apart. Insert three sheet metal screws for the grate to rest on. In this case you don't care which way the grate flips, right side up or upside down.

If you have a spot welder you weld three narrow strips of metal about 4 inches long extending the legs at the bottom for proper height with the extra pointing up. This will keep the grate from flipping even if you turn the smoker upside down to clean it. That is what I have done to mine.

So I guess the answer to your question is neither.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What's wrong w/ the way smokers are already engineered? The Kelly/Dadant Models anyway.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nothing, if you are happy with the way yours works and feels keep buying new ones when you run over them. I don't think they are going to redesign one so you can run over it. 
However if I were Kelly/Dadant I would have a model made in America that would compete with the Chinese knock offs. There is no reason to stop making what they are making if sales supports it but I hate the fact that we let the imports take manufacturing away from America for American consumers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh my, no one is doing that, are they? Certainly Kelley and Dadant are doing what is good for their business. And if Kelley Co is being run anything like Mr. Kelley ran it, they are evry responsible to the employees needs and concerns and very Pro American Manufacturing.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Here is what one of my smokers looks like.






This is one which fell off the truck, breaking the bellows and denting the canister.








































































It works really well now, now that I have a new bellows on it. It'll work even better once some creosote accumulates around the top of the canistert where the cover goes on.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I have. never heard the Dadant smoker was made outside the US. In the past they have bragged that they were US made. Has that recently changed?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> I have never heard the Dadant smoker was made outside the US. In the past they have bragged that they were US made. Has that recently changed?


This is what I thought too.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> I have. never heard the Dadant smoker was made outside the US. In the past they have bragged that they were US made. Has that recently changed?


What makes you think they aren't made here?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

OK, I am ordering two of these smokers for myself. Anyone else in my area want me to order them one? SHipping for one is about $14.00. Shipping for two is $16.00. Shipping for three is 19.80 and so on.


$41.50 each + shipping

M009281 Smoker 4 x 10 Stainless Steel with Heat/Finger Shield
[M009281]

New Model 4x10 Stainless Steel Smoker with Shield and New Finger Heat Guard. Hinge pins with keepers that last and last and . . . last. AMERICAN MADE Shielded models with hooks & bottom rests Developed for beekeepers who spend long hours in the bee yard and those who use "hotter burning" fuels. A stainless steel shield is lined with an insulating material and riveted in place between the heat chamber and bellows to protect the hand. 
Ship wt. 4 lbs.
http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=46


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## beehonest (Nov 3, 2011)

I think odfrank hit the nail on the head! I have a mann lake bellows and a wooden one.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> What makes you think they aren't made here?


I guess it was Acebirds post, but in re-reading it I may have misunderstood his wording.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> I guess it was Acebirds post, but in re-reading it I may have misunderstood his wording.


That is easy to do.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Sometimes you have to reread my posts. I tend to leave out some details because my mind runs faster than my fingers.
But if Dadant (and I don't know that they are not) does not make an economy version to compete with the Chinese then they are letting those sales go by the wayside. American manufacturers have a huge advantage over the Chinese. We have the raw materials and we are already here so we do not have to burn oil bringing the raw materials across the world and then burn some more oil crossing the same pond for the finished goods. What we lack is high speed rail to connect major cities. Remember when the country needed stimulus? All we did is feed the fat cats. Did nothing to create stimulus and did nothing to create jobs.
We should all grow hemp, make ropes and hang them all.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> What we lack is high speed rail to connect major cities.


What we really lack is cheap labor. High speed rail doesn't even enter the picture. Remember, when those imports hit our shores they must still be transported to their final destination. They would benefit just as much as the domestic products from less expensive transportation.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> What we really lack is cheap labor.


Don't be ridiculous. We have lots of cheap labor we aren't even using and we can import all the cheap labor we need instead of importing all the finished goods. Which will employ all the non cheap labor that is unemployed.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Acebird said:


> we can import all the cheap labor


Cheap imported labor is not cheap.........look at all the social/medical/schooling/housing, etc services we need to provide to "cheap labor!"


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Don't be ridiculous.


You win Ace....the reason we have a flood of cheap, imported goods is because we don't have high speed rail.....sure thing!


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Don't be ridiculous. We have lots of cheap labor we aren't even using and we can import all the cheap labor we need instead of importing all the finished goods. Which will employ all the non cheap labor that is unemployed.


snl hit it right...cheap, imported labor is FAR from being cheap...it is an invasion that is sinking the USA as we speak. When our country gets so weak it can't supply those wondrous services that snl spoke of and that the imported cheap labor comes here for, what do you think will happen then, komrade? 

But, alas, I will try to buy all American built goods (just getting harder to do). The smoker that I use is a Kelley Smoke Cloud. I have another older one (circa mid-60's) that came from Sears, looks heavy duty and has seen little use (it was still in it's box when I got it  )...I haven't used it yet.

Ed

ETA: But, I actually haven't checked that Sears smoker to see if it was made here in the USA. During that time frame...I bet it was but I could be surprised.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Thanks Ace for (high speed) derailing this thread into Tailgater territory.


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