# put brood frame in swarm with no queen...question



## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

When should I open again and look? What am I looking for, just capped brood or queen cells? See pictures in picture forum if interested...thanks!


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

If the swarm was indeed queenless and there wasn't a virgin queen in it, you will get queen cells drawn immediately. If there is a virgin or newly mated queen, they will raise the brood instead.

Either is fine, so long as you eventually end up with a mated queen laying a good pattern. That can take several weeks after the swam left the hive, though.

Peter


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## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

The swarm is 6 weeks old and I put a picture of a frame with no brood in the picture forum. I am pretty sure no queen or if there was she is gone. So my question is how soon should I look in case I did not get a 1-3 day old egg in there and want to try again? Would I know in 7 days? thanks. Here is an image of the frame from that swarm if it will upload:


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Can't say for sure, but, that photo with scattered individual eggs, seemes to indicate brood from a worker laying. 

Is this the frame you gave them, or one they are working on.

cchoganjr


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

If the picture is of the swarm and most of the bees they are dead. lack of bees


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## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

Mr. H, it is of the frame they are working on and 3 others look the same. One looked like there may have been a queen cell at one time and I think I did have a queen once since they all followed her into the box but now it seems she is gone. The frame I gave is half capped brood and half open cell with possibly eggs surrounded by pollen and honey. I can always put another in if need be...this is experimental to me to learn as right now there are more swarms then takers in this area and I could also just replace them, combine them. I'd prefer to use it as a learning experience... 

I wouldn't count them out yet if they are able to produce a queen who will lay....this is just one frame, there are 3 others like it with more bees I could not take pictures of as the iPhone overheated. The season is young.....


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## Claudia80 (Aug 19, 2010)

Try putting a frame of new brood in once a week until the bees fix their problems.


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## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

That is my plan if I can do it without depleting my italian girls but am wondering how soon would I see a queen cell being built? Would I see it say in 7 days if I did get a 1 -3 day old egg in there? thanks!


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## Claudia80 (Aug 19, 2010)

You should, like Psfred said; they should start making queen cells right away if they need a queen.


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## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

thank you.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Just summarizing what I've read here- If you are truly queenless a frame of brood should produce queen cells almost immediately. If you have a dud queen that is still producing queen pheromone you may have to find her and send her off to that big beehive in the sky before the brood will be made into queen cells. If you have laying workers the brood pheromones will suppress them but it takes a while. A new frame of brood every week will usually result in a queen cell in a month or so.

I invite and hope for comments from those who know more than I, I am trying to learn too.
Bill


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## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

Follow up to this. 7 days later I checked the swarm and the frame...no queen cells but bees were hatching... I was happy to see they were able to keep the brood alive as its been cold at night and few bees left. I looked carefully and could not find a queen. So I took from my italian strong hive 2 honey frames, 2 brood / pollen/ open cell frames and put them in with the remaining swarm. I tried to make sure not to bring over the queen and I don't think I did. So now I won't look in there for ? long to see if there are queen cells? Should I look in another 7 days or just wait a couple weeks? thanks.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

You can get away with a lot where we live, the weather is great for bees.
Make sure the frame you add has eggs on it, & you will know within a week.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm

Assuming they had a virgin queen she should be laying in two to three weeks. Any later than three weeks and you have problems. 

IMO a frame of open brood is the perfect insurance.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm


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## CaBees (Nov 9, 2011)

Thank you both, I may check it this weekend when I check my other swarm. I just ordered your book Michael and am looking forward to reading it and keeping it on hand for reference.


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