# Perico Frames and Burr Comb



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

So, I got a call from a friend who started off
with 100% Perico frames last spring. Two
problems that seemed to me to be serious:

</font>
Sloooow drawing of frames. A well fed
package drew less than 2 mediums of frames
from hiving until last fall.</font>
Burr Comb for days. It appears that the
frame top bars are very thin, and boxes are
joined by burr comb in which drone brood is
raised, making separation of boxes a serious
and messy problem.</font>
What do others do to get Perico frames to be
"bee space compliant"? Add shims to the top
bars?

What do others do to get bees to draw these
frames out? Must the comb be "baited" with
wax and/or sugar syrup?

The Perico here is the black version, the
woodenware is all from Brushy Mountain, all
mediums. I've never used the stuff, but after
looking at some photos, I'm inclined to suggest
"making the top-bars thicker" as a solution to
what appears to be a clear and compelling
bee-space violation inherent in the design of
the Perico frame.


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## Todd Zeiner (Jun 15, 2004)

Jim, 
I have had the same circumstances as you describe with the top bar bee space. I have not had any problems with them drawing it out, as long as they are taking feed or there is a flow on. Spraying with sugar water has not seemed to make a difference. With the Pierco forcing them to draw worker cells, I make sure to put a green drone frame in every hive so they have a place to put drones. I believe the bee space is violated with these frames, but I won't be going back to wood and wax because of it.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

They are much slower to draw than wax or empty frames in my experience. I don't use any foundation anymore, just beveled top bars in my frames.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm inclined to suggest "making the top-bars thicker" as a solution to what appears to be a clear and compelling bee-space violation inherent in the design of the Perico frame. 

What size is the frame now? I'm betting it is correct (6 1/4"). I don't think there is a bee-space violation, just a very thin top bar that causes the issue. If you add anything I think you WILL be in violation of beespace.


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## Todd Zeiner (Jun 15, 2004)

I just measured one. 6 1/4" overall 5 13/16" from under top bar to bottom of frame. Top bar thickness with dial caliper measures .423" (Just under 7/16")


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I have had absolutely no problem with my bees drawing out the all Pierco frames. All of mine were waxed from the factory. I did nothing extra to them. I also haven't noticed a difference between spraying with sugar syrup or not. As long as they have nectar of some sort they draw it. I've put nucs in hives of 100% plastic pierco frames and I've put them on strong colonies. I have never put a package on Pierco. 

I had one strong hive last June draw out and cap 5 meds full of 100% Pierco (black and white) during the flow. They do seem to work plastic less than wax when the flow is light especially if it is not directly above the broodnest. 

I guess I haven't noticed a huge issue with burr comb. 

That said I did have a problem getting a case full of plastic frames that had warped so I decided to use wood frames with Pierco snap in this year. I also had difficulty with the ears but only in colder weather. I wouldn't hesitate to buy more if I didn't have time to put together frames.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I was just ready to buy some of these...... thanks for the info on the downside.


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## Beemaninsa (Jun 9, 2004)

I have seen/had the same problem with burr comb. The few boxes I have were drawn OK on a strong flow. In addition to bee space, I wonder if the bees just really like to burr up the plastic as if they are trying to cover it up.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Cut some top and bottom bars down really thin and make some wooden frames like this. You'll see it's just the thickness of the top and bottom bar that are the cause. I've done it before.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Wow, I never complain about bur comb between my supers. It means you have full supers of honey!! Wood and plastic,

[ April 19, 2006, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Ian ]


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

The problem is not with supers, the problem here
is that the Perico is being used in the brood
chamber, and it makes a mess at every attempt
to inspect the hive.


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2004)

What Jim is reporting is THE problem with Pierco...and why I am almost through getting rid of 700 frames I bought and foolishly installed.

The only real solution is to cut the BOX. It is easy to do with a table saw. By doing so correct bee space will be restored. How much you have to cut, whether you have to cut both top and bottom or just one or the other, etc. depends on who made your boxes. Do the measurements. You need no more than 3/8th from the top of the Pierco frame to the top of the box, and then no more than 3/8th from the bottom of the Pierco frame to the TOP OF THE PIERCO FRAME beneath. 

But if you want to 'mix' wood and Pierco, forget it! The Pierco frame top bars are poorly designed and it is clear they are not about to buy new molds.

As far as drawing them out goes...most try 'too soon' in the season. Don't even think about trying until sweet clover or basswood bloom. Then put them directly over a brood nest AND FEED SYRUP. They will be drawn just fine.

Good luck,


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## Todd Zeiner (Jun 15, 2004)

I have woodenware and frames that are 1/8 off on beespace tolerance from the same supplier. Mix that in with a few without frame rest's and some with frame spacers and you still get the same problem. In a perfect world, the Pierco has room for improvement. I'm getting ready to buy 1000 more. I'll take yours Lloyd 

[ April 19, 2006, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Todd Zeiner ]


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> The only real solution is to cut the BOX.

Why not add shims to the top bars if they are
too thin? Yes, it would be a pain, but less
pain than screwing up one's mediums.

But I'm confused:
</font>
Todd said above that the top bar thickness
was 0.423" (Just under 7/16") This, if correct,
should be a perfectly good top bar thickness if
the overall height of the frame is 6.25", as
Todd said it was.</font>
Lloyd's observations match mine. I did
not measure the frames at issue, but they sure
seemed "thin" to me.</font>
Does this mean that there are two versions of
Perico frames out there?

Why is it that all these plastic products
seem to have been designed without regard to
bee space? Perico, with the too-thin top bars,
and Permacomb, with the "too short" overall
height? Who the heck invests so much money in
tooling for a mold and makes such basic errors?

On the other hand, one must cut down a shallow
super to get Ross Rounds to strictly obey bee
space, but I'm not going to beat up Lloyd, as
he merely bought the company, and is unlikely
to ever have the revenue stream to justify a
redesign of the basic tooling.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Perico, with the too-thin top bars,
and Permacomb, with the "too short" overall
height? Who the heck invests so much money in
tooling for a mold and makes such basic errors?

I think both were done intentionally. Pierco was trying to get more cells on a frame and save plastic and weight. PermaComb was trying to leave somehwere for drones (since it can't be reworked).


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2004)

Well they both (Pierco and PermaComb) were crazy. The 'problem' was that neither products were designed by 'real' beekeepers. Both were essentially hobbyists that thought (correctly) that they had a great new idea, but neither had the depth of experience as beekeepers that led them to a 'correct' design.

BTW, we see that today in the instance of Bee O Pac. Two guys are behind this. One is, at best, a hobbyist beekeeper and the other knows nothing about bees and a lot about marketing. A poorly designed product that does not fit supers or be otherwise attractive to bees. Two of the four US dealers who carry it have told me they will drop it as soon as they manage to sell their inventory (how would you like to be one of those buying that inventory?).

I am told that a 'successful' super of Bee O pac will yield 65% saleable products. If you divide the total cost of a load for that super by 65% of the number of 'possible' saleable units one gets a horrific cost per unit! Actually, the 65% is more than I have ever managed to get, but I probably have a lot to learn in this regard (and little motivation).

Regardless, my understanding is that the depth of the Ross Round frame was dictated by the desire to have a 4 inch diameter section. Why the 4" was deemed so important in the mid-60's, I can't imagine. But that designer was also a hobbyist beekeeper, at best he had 15 hives, who also happened to be a superb engineer. I would not even know how to approach determination of the diameter of circle needed to be produced from a frame that was inside a 4 3/4" super (the then 'proper' size for a section frame super) AND respect bee space, so I am glad I was not involved.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> BTW, we see that today in the instance of Bee O Pac.

Don't get me started on Bee-O-Pac!
If you want some propaganda, Lloyd, when I tried
the Bee-O-Pac, I put 2 supers of the stuff on 6
hives that I compressed down from 3 mediums of
brood chamber to 2 mediums when deploying my
Ross Rounds. Dozens of colonies around them
drew and filled 2 Ross Round Supers each with
ease, but the colonies with the Bee-O-Pac supers
did not even fill one super completely by the
end of the main flows. Hives were randomly
assigned to Bee-O-Pac versus Ross Rounds, and
all hives were NWCs, fed since early Feb with
HFCS and pure trapped pollen, with no "hamburger
helper" added. These were not weak colonies at
all.

What a waste of time and money. I figure I lost
6.5 * 32 * $4 = $832 on that little experiment,
as I got about 1/2 super of saleable product
from each 2 supers of Bee-O-Pac deployed, when
I could have slapped the Ross Rounds on those
sale colonies and harvested full supers.
(But I just _gotta_ try new toys, don't I?)

> does not fit supers 

Fred Rossman pointed that out first to my 
knowledge, even though he was offering them for
sale. I forget which meeting he had them on
a table, in a medium, bearing mute witness to
an inability to fit in standard woodenware.

> Why the 4" was deemed so important

Well, they do weigh out to about 4oz, which
makes the math easy for labeling and such.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>What a waste of time and money.

Now how can that be a waste of money? I've used the same two for the last two years. Will probably use them again this year too. They always come off the hive clean as a whistle and ready for reuse!


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

Well I ALMOST have gotten all the burr comb cleaned up.
I also have a little more than $2,000 worth of new Pierco sitting here in boxes....
Was setting the tablesaw up to cut down some deep boxes to get(I think)a 5/16" beespace.
But I am a little hesitant,because the beespace on my wooden frames seems to be just as screwed up....some frames are 9 1/8"...some 9 3/16"...neither which seems to add up(or subtract,depending on how you look at it)to the correct beespace.I figured at least THOSE should be right.
So,I thought I would see what you all thought,before I muck up my new 9 5/8" deeps.
Thanks
Mark Johnson


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think if you cut down the boxes you will still get burr comb. It's the thickness of the top bar that is the reason for the burr, not the spacing between the boxes.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

So the only fix would be some kind of overlay across the top bar?? Or triming the top of the box. 

Raising the rests I assume would only screw up the bottom space.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's not the height, it's the thickness between where the comb ends and the top of the top bar that is the "problem". Walt Wright is going to great lengths to try to get them to build one continuous comb between the boxes and everyone else is complaining about it happening.







Well, everyone except Bullseye, Mr. Seets and myself.


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

Thanks Mr Bee,
I think the way these frames were stuck together I should just glue the brood boxes together too, and remove the ears on the bottom frames and have sorta of a Jumbo frame  
But seriously,I have been thinking about how a top bar extension would need to be constructed/attached and haven't hit on any brilliant idea.
Any ideas?
What if you cut down your boxes to get the beespace correct,and made a "filler" strip to fit under the top bar,that you could(wax)attach?
Just wondering,I probably won't get time to try it.
So,why isn't the beespace right on the wood stuff,both the frames&boxes were from the same large vendor in upstate N.Y.?
Mark


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

I make some of my own frames and will admit to not being the greatest woodworker in the world. The bee spacing on my frames is sometimes out of tolerance. I also use Pierco frames. The plastic frames end up with more burr comb than my out of tolerance bee space wooden frames. Maybe there's more to burr comb and Pierco than just bad bee space.


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

In the ABCXYZ book they say burr&brace comb can bee eliminated by the use of a thick/wide top bar(3/4"-7/8"),they(I think)were writing at the time 7/16" thick top bars were the norm.

If that is right,I don't see how a simple top bar "overlay" is going to solve the problem,other than it would bring the beespace part of the problem under control.

How about making an "overlay" extension that was made in this way.
Plow out the underside of the "overlay",leaving very thin "lips" that hung down and made the top bar seem thick,even though there would be a tiny void behind those "lips" that would get filled in by the bees in the case of of a new frame,or you could mush it into the comb in the case of retrofitting drawn frames.
The "lips" would mess up the beespace between the frames,right?
Would be easy with a plastic...it could snap on,and have very thin "lips"...
I am just wondering.Seems like a hassle...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Maybe there's more to burr comb and Pierco than just bad bee space. 

Exactly.

>In the ABCXYZ book they say burr&brace comb can bee eliminated by the use of a thick/wide top bar(3/4"-7/8"),they(I think)were writing at the time 7/16" thick top bars were the norm.

Bingo.

If you cut down your boxes you will have non standard boxes and you will STILL have burr comb. If you add a strip of wood to the top bar, unless you manage to get close to 3/4" thick, you still won't make a dent in the burr comb.

I think you should accept reality. IF you use Pierco or PermaComb you WILL have burr comb between the boxes, no matter if you cut the boxes down. It's not nearly the problem when you expect it and have a system to deal with it. I have had the same problem with wooden frames, correct beespace and 1/2" thick wood top bars.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Giving to Walt


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

>>Giving to Walt

When's Walt gonna come online?


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## Parke County Queen (May 22, 2006)

This is my second year of beekeeping and I bought Pierco for one of my new nucs. After reading all of the comments on Pierco, I am discouraged. Just installed the nuc yesterday - will advise on how they draw it out.


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## Todd Zeiner (Jun 15, 2004)

Pc Queen- 

After I assemble 50 wooden frames, install the foundation and wire the foundation in place, I get discouraged too. Then I open a case of Pierco and drop them in. Much easier!

Oh, welcome to the board from a fellow Hoosier!!!


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Mike,

I watched Lusby's inspection video and she noted that she has little burr comb because of the special frames she uses. I am not sure I quite understand what she means, but maybe she has >3/4 thick inch top bars on her frames. So if one was able to design his own frames, or retrofit them, what would be dimentions to achive minimal burr effect? I am just really tired of jamming the hive tool between frames to separate boxes.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

AramF said:


> but maybe she has >3/4 thick inch top bars on her frames.


3/4" bottom bars.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Dee also leaves a gap at the bottom of the foundation for them to build drone in. Building drone comb is one of the motivations for building comb between the boxes. Other references on top bar thickness from C.C. Miller:

“…that very practical Canadian bee-keeper, J.B. Hall, showed me his thick top-bars, and told me that they prevented the building up of so much burr-comb between the top-bars and the sections…and I am very glad that at the present day it can be dispensed with by having top-bars 1-1/8 inch wide and 7/8 inch thick, with a space of 1/4 inch between top-bar and section. Not that there is an entire absence of burr-combs, but near enough to it so that one can get along much more comfortably than with the slat honey-board. At any rate there is no longer the killing of bees that there was every day the dauby honey-board was replaced.”--C.C. Miller, Fifty Years Among the Bees.

“Q. Do you believe that a half-inch thick brood-frame top-bar will tend to prevent the bees building burr-comb on such frames, as well as the three-quarter inch top-bar? Which kind do you use? 
A. I do not believe that the one-half inch will prevent burr-combs quite as well as the three-quarter. Mine are seven-eighths.”--C.C. Miller, A Thousand Answers to Beekeeping Questions


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Thanks Barry and Mike.


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## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

Todd Zeiner said:


> Pc Queen-
> 
> After I assemble 50 wooden frames, install the foundation and wire the foundation in place, I get discouraged too. Then I open a case of Pierco and drop them in. Much easier!
> 
> Oh, welcome to the board from a fellow Hoosier!!!


I started with Pierco and they did ok (because that's all the bees had to work with). I did have a difficult time the first inspection of the year in the spring (I had to lay the boxes down and pry them open). But after that they came apart ok.

At our last bee meeting, we had a demonstration of a contraption for putting 10 frames together at a time. After seeing that, I'm definitely sticking with plastic.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

AramF said:


> I watched Lusby's inspection video and she noted that she has little burr comb because of the special frames she uses.


This is a Lusby frame. The top bar ears are not tapered or notched, just a straight 1" wide x 7/16" thick x 9/16" out from the end bar.










Bottom bar is 3/4"x3/4". Top bar is 1"x3/4".










End bars are 7/16" thick x 1-3/8" at the shoulder. They're all made from construction grade lumber. 2x4's etc.










The bottom bar has a rabbet cut on the end, 7/16"x3/8".


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Can bees successfully jump that big of a break in comb in the winter?


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I don't see 3/4's of an inch being a problem at the bottom of the frame.. I see it more of an issue with the bees moving between frames, not up an onto the frame above them. ((ex. moving from Frame 1 to frame 5 in a 10 frame box..)


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Kevin, I think the bee space is preserved, what you loose with Lusby's frame is brood area, the overall frame dimentions stay the same.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

That isn't the point I was trying to make. The 3/4" bar is big enough that the bees don't try to continue the comb like they do with the pierco.

The point I was trying to make is that it's harder for the bees to go from another comb than it is is to climb up farther on the comb..... That's why you see bees pressed all the against the top of the hive and starving to death, when they have a full frame of honey 2 frames over from the cluster.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I agree. I think the burr between the boxes is a good thing and the bees treating it as all one comb is a good thing...


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## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

Jim Fischer said:


> So, I got a call from a friend who started off
> with 100% Perico frames last spring. Two
> problems that seemed to me to be serious:
> 
> ...



English Translation of PERICO
cotorra : small parrot

Pierco would be the proper name.


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