# 80,000 hives- largest beekeeper in USA



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Might as well toss in another compatible object - 115K unit bee wintering shed.
That is some huge refrigerator - the real deal:


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

weren't these the guys caught, and convicted of using illegal applications in their colonies? 

_The Adees have been convicted of using unapproved chemicals in their beehives. The Minnesota Department of Agriculture inspectors found blue shop towels in the Adees beehives. The towels were found to contain Fluvalinate and Oxalic acid.

They were convicted, and ordered to pay a $14,000 fine! _


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Ye who hath not used wood bleach in their hives, cast the first stone.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Yes surprised at the Fluvalinate, would have expected amitraz on those blue towels. Come to think of it if it was not for the commercials using stuff like that commercial beekeeping just might have collapsed during the 1990's as they never got any real help from the scientific community.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I am betting Adee happily paid $14,000 to keep his bees alive.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Back when they had "only" 50,000 hives, Richard Adee spoke at the Oregon State beekeepers Association Fall conference one year.
Some of the pictures were breathtaking.
One in particular was of them standing next to a semi load of hives and semis lined up down the highway as far as you could see.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Psm1212, I am sure you would lose your bet. I do not know anyone who happily pays his or her money to the Government.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

johno said:


> Psm1212, I am sure you would lose your bet. I do not know anyone who happily pays his or her money to the Government.


You are right. Maybe I should have said that he would be willing to pay it again next year.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

What should go on the cost / benefit is the savings of using off label product vs the EPA labeled ones. The $14,000 might have been a bargain except for reputation factor.

I think it was the off label factor rather than the nature of the pesticides used, that was being policed.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Frank I think in the 1990" that was the time of the massive colony collapse story, also when mites became more or less resistant to the main legal miticides and I think at that time the blue shop towls appeared trying out all sorts of stuff and eventually setting down to cattle and sheep miticides using amitraz. Amitraz never came from the boffins, I think it came from the commercial guys who had skin in the game and whos livelyhood was threatened. Then of course came along the regulators who could not help with the situation but would show these guys that rules is rules and thereby came an old South African saying "kak en betaal, die wet van Transvaal"


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

johno said:


> Then of course came along the regulators who could not help with the situation but would show these guys that rules is rules and thereby came an old South African saying "kak en betaal, die wet van Transvaal"


got to disagree, the reason they made it legal was because it was starting to show up in honey samples. once they made it legal they could pour in as much as they wanted as long as they didn't go over the ppm limit, before it was legal there was no ppm limit so the honey could be rejected. There was one commercial that I read about that had his load turned away. as to the Adee's, if I remember correctly, they were turned in by a disgruntled employee.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Was that Fluvalinate they were using then that was illegal, I thought that that was legal from the beginning. Did Cuomophos come first. Or did Cuomophos fail first leading to fluvalinate.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

HarryVanderpool said:


> One in particular was of them standing next to a semi load of hives and semis lined up down the highway as far as you could see.





johno said:


> Then of course came along the regulators who could not help with the situation but would show these guys that rules is rules and thereby came an old South African saying "kak en betaal, die wet van Transvaal"


I guess that's the downside of having trucks lined up on the road as far as the eye can see. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

Alex


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

IIRC, the "Blue shop rag" was very common in that time period, and was used my the majority of the commercials. The Gov't had to make an example of someone, so they picked on the Adees.

Forgive me, but I bet with PSM1212, 56,000 times $ .25 is $14,000. I would gladly pay 25 cents to keep a hive alive..

Crazy Roland


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Roland said:


> IIRC, the "Blue shop rag" was very common in that time period, and was used my the majority of the commercials. The Gov't had to make an example of someone, so they picked on the Adees.
> 
> Forgive me, but I bet with PSM1212, 56,000 times $ .25 is $14,000. I would gladly pay 25 cents to keep a hive alive..
> 
> Crazy Roland


right the cost per hive is .25, so the "offence" was really a big deal to someone. now it is being tested and discussed, soon may be legal, so seems an early adopter, trail breaker.

GG


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

You wouldn’t have to dig too far into me to find some dirt, i wish i had 80,000 hives. I’d go to almonds once, sell them all and retire!


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Don't they rake it in from the same hated govt when they have losses, esp due to "ccd"? If yes when did that start and how much did they get that year? Does that count as return in investment? I have never participated in the insurance program but the rules (as a fellow from ag explained them to me) seemed a bit weird.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Amibusiness said:


> Don't they rake it in from the same hated govt when they have losses, esp due to "ccd"? If yes when did that start and how much did they get that year? Does that count as return in investment? I have never participated in the insurance program but the rules (as a fellow from ag explained them to me) seemed a bit weird.


the adees don't appear to be especially high on the elap list compared to many other beeks. not sure how the copy will work. that's from 1995 to present, but it's hard to find if they also have $ under there companies name.

*2*Richard Lee AdeeBruce, SD 57220$ 685,084.87*3*Kelvin Dean AdeeBrookings, SD 57006$ 171,834.00*4*Bret Lee AdeeBruce, SD 57220$ 365,865.53*5*Alice Estella AdeeBruce, SD 57220$ 261,616.76
 a bigger source of money comes from the tariffs placed on honey imports, I have no way to know the exact figure but in the past they have annually given over a million dollars to the national bee organization that they are on the board for. but still small potatoes compared the the money they must turn over with that many hives.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Oh for sure they gross more from their colonies. I just meant that if they pay a fine every now and then the elap more than covers it. Possibly anyway. That's getting close to 1.5 million from elap in 25 years. So about 60k/year. That's not going to pay much of their employment tax but it may well cover any licensing, permitting, regulations, and fines.... I know I don't get any subsidies for producing honey and bees but I also don't need to pay as much for regulations and fines....


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

I heard their losses were 50% plus which easily could be true during the early varroa days. At say $150 per hive, that's $60M loss in a year. Not my league!

Right you are Amibusiness. $6M


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Too many zeros. 40k×150=6M. And in early days of varoa no way replacement was 150. Are their losses still 50%? I would be surprised. I assume they winter in south (TX?) and can build their own back up to whatever they need well before the flows they are after in the north. By way of almonds, of course. If they could only send half their bees to almonds that would already be about 8M gross. I have no clue what expenses at that scale are but if they are sending 80k to almonds that should cover pollination costs and their losses and they still have a bunch of nucs to sell and honey to make. But I certainly agree not my league...!


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## Boondocks (Sep 16, 2020)

Amibusiness said:


> Too many zeros. 40k×150=6M. And in early days of varoa no way replacement was 150. Are their losses still 50%? I would be surprised. I assume they winter in south (TX?) and can build their own back up to whatever they need well before the flows they are after in the north. By way of almonds, of course. If they could only send half their bees to almonds that would already be about 8M gross. I have no clue what expenses at that scale are but if they are sending 80k to almonds that should cover pollination costs and their losses and they still have a bunch of nucs to sell and honey to make. But I certainly agree not my league...!


According to the video, they have apiaries in Mississippi ( for queen production) and California (for pollination). It sounds like the west and Midwest locations are for wax and honey.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Never mind, tomorrow I am getting my first hive out of 80,000


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Is that johnydoo? Or scoobyo? 😁
I look forward to reading all about it....


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

_ It sounds like the west and Midwest locations are for wax and honey_

Fluvalinate.

For those who don't know, fluvalinate contaminates wax. They were caught applying it via shop towels, so which wax do they sell into the market - the fluvalinate contaminated wax, or the clean wax?

Seems like very little accountability on pesticide applications in the beekeeping industry./ How many fines have been issued to beekeepers applying amitraz on shop towels?


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## Boondocks (Sep 16, 2020)

These are archived entries from the Bad Beekeeping website I just found, troubling times back then:

*(September, 1997) *A fascinating miticide scandal has been brewing for the past few weeks. It involves the unapproved application of a common miticide called _Maverik._ Using the common greenhouse and nursery grower's chemical to control mites on geraniums is acceptable, but soaking paper towels in _Maverik_ and inserting them between brood chambers after the honey flow is *illegal,* even if it is apparently much more effective than Apistan strips - and less than 10 per cent the cost. Rumour has it that one Texan beekeeper was fined $300 for treating hives with _Maverik_ _(Hey, $300 is a lot of money to a beeman!_)
There is a little more mite news floating around the country. Apparently, an efficacy experiment in a southern US state involving ten-year old Apistan strips (sold in 1989) demonstrated that the old strips were much better at killing varroa than strips produced today. The apparent recent loss in Apistan strip effectiveness is believed to be due to formulation changes in the host material (the plastic that holds the miticide in the strip), which no longer releases the chemical correctly. There had been speculation that some strains of mites were developing resistance to the Fluvalinate, but it now appears (according to our sources in the south) that the strips just aren't working as they once did. In tests conducted by the producers of Apistan, it has been indicated that the product continues to be at least 95% effective in killing mites - *if used correctly.* Unfortunately, a _correct_ application would require about five times the number of individual strips per hive than what beekeepers typically use. The resulting cost could finacially destroy some beekeepers (_then_ who would buy the strips?)... It is important for producers of any commodity to keep prices at a level that customers will not go broke making purchases, or, worse turn into mavericks!
Also 1997:


Control of the mites which have been affecting North American bees for over ten years now are varied and the supporters of these various controls are likewise a rather disparate group. Many beekeepers are frustrated by the lack of permanent cures, and sense that much scientific research has been conducted at universities receiving grants from chemical companies. Scientists, in turn, have a tough time supporting home remedies which seems to have limited and unreproducible successes. The big debate is really focused on _unregistered_ miticides, which some scientists are calling _Snake Oil_ while the big money continues to support manufactured chemicals. Hopefully, the levels of abuse (from both sides) will not result in any permanent damage to anyone's livelihood....
1998:


*(February 1998)* Perhaps our most important news story on beekeeping is actually a story on *free speech* and government attempts to interefere with what beekeepers can say, write, and print to each other. We include here a news release sent directly to us by John Caldeira, of Texas, in the USA...

*Texas Department of Agriculture Dismisses Free Speech Case Against Beekeeper*
After a two and a half year legal battle, the Texas Department of Agriculture has dropped charges that beekeeper John Caldeira broke the law simply by talking about pesticides on the Internet.
In 1995, the Texas Department of Agriculture (TDA) sent beekeeper John Caldeira a letter in the mail claiming that he broke the law when he discussed the merits of _Mavrik_, a pesticide, in controlling varroa mites in beehives on Prodigy's bee hobbyist bulletin board. Under Texas law, a pesticide distributor can lose his license for "recommending" a pesticide inconsistent with its labeling or approved EPA use. But Caldeira wasn't a distributor of pesticides or even a commercial beekeeper. He was just a hobbyist repeating what he'd learned from USDA researchers at beekeeping conventions.
The TDA went after him anyway, claiming that his Prodigy posts "gave the impression" that he was a knowledgeable commercial beekeeper whose "advice and suggestions would have a significant impact in encouraging illegal use of _Mavrik_." They inspected Caldeira's hives and found no violations of the law. Still, they pursued Caldeira, seeking to fine him $600. Caldeira countered that his comments were factually accurate, harmed no one and were protected by the First Amendment.
After bringing his case to the readers of Fight-Censorship, an electronic mailing list, attorney Jennifer Granick put Caldeira in contact with Texas attorney McGready Richeson. Richeson, representing Caldeira pro bono, moved to challenge the TDA's actions on First Amendment grounds, filed for a stay of the proceedings and prepared to file a declaratory action to determine the constitutionality of the statute.
In response, TDA drafted a statement for Caldeira to post "one time per month for three months" to Prodigy, parroting the TDA's position on pesticide use, in exchange for dropping the fine. Richeson rejected the offer, stating that no offer which forced Caldeira either to remain silent or to speak would be acceptable.
Meanwhile, the TDA's case was in trouble. On January 12, 1998, Administrative Law Judge Barbara C. Marquardt granted Richeson's Motion to Continue, stating that "the nature of this action is problematic. While it is filed against a Texas resident, it concerns information he placed on the Internet, and no harm was done to Texas residents... Thus, the ALJ would prefer that a district court address the constitutional issues." That same day, the TDA dropped their case against Caldeira.
*March, 1999. *The state of Washington produces many fruit crops that are dependent on honey bees for pollination. Problem is bee count is way down, from 85,000 hives to 54,000. The drop is at least partly due to the varroa mite. Bee mites in the northwest have reportedly been demonstrating resistance to fluvalinate. As a result, beekeepers are seeking a regional request was prepared seeking an emergency exemption from the EPA to let beekeepers in Washington, Oregon and Idaho use a new miticide on a beehive pest strip made by the Bayer Corp. -- the giant German company famous for aspirin. The active ingredient in the Bayer Bee Strip is a chemical called coumaphos. This winter, beekeepers in the Northwest have gotten special permission from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.
 
The USA currently allows two treatments for varroa mite (coumaphos and fluvalinate) but a third may be on the way, according to a *September, 1999* article, "_New Hope For Declining U.S. Honeybee Population",_ from Science Daily. Researchers with the U. S. Department of Agriculture in Beltsville, Md., report they may be able to stem the decline in the honeybee population with a gel containing formic acid. Writing in the *September 20* issue of the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry, the researchers report that the gel kills 70-85 percent of varroa mites, which literally suck the life from bees by feeding on their body fluids, and 100 percent of tracheal mites, which live in bees' tracheae and interfere with breathing. The peer-reviewed journal is published by the American Chemical Society, the world's largest scientific society. The article was initially published on the journal's web site on Aug. 21.



This story summarized from _The Philadelphia Inquirer_ *March, 2000,*Beekeeping industry threatened by an invasion of parasitic mites - The culprit is a highly contagious parasite called the varroa mite. It feeds off the blood of bees and triggers viruses that cause mutations in offspring, depleting colonies within weeks. Hudson trapped some mites in a baby-food jar - dark amber specks the size of strawberry seeds.
The mite was introduced in the United States from Europe in 1987. In 1996, the worst year so far, it destroyed about 60 percent of the nation's bees. _"This is a serious problem nationwide,"_ said Grant Stiles, chief bee specialist for New Jersey. In the last 13 years, the state's 900 beekeepers and 10,000 bee colonies have been drastically reduced, said Robert Balaam, director of the Division of Plant Industry in the state's Department of Agriculture. The department did not record statistics before 1990, but anecdotal evidence suggests the varroa mite struck New Jersey hard, he said.
In Pennsylvania, the number of keepers and colonies has dropped by two-thirds since 1987, said James Steinhauser, chief bee inspector for the state. In 1999, 1,700 beekeepers with 30,133 colonies registered with the state. _"It just snuck up on them. Beekeepers didn't know what was going on,"_ Steinhauser said.
Bob Harvey of Monroeville, owner of the largest beekeeping business in New Jersey, has watched his colonies shrink by half - to about 2,400 - in the last 25 years. Other factors, such as drought and hurricanes, diminished stock, Harvey said. But by far, the mite has done the most damage. Because cold weather weakens bee colonies, he said, Northern beekeepers now transport bees to warmer climates in the winter. He estimated he spent more than $250,000 last year to transport his bees to Florida. With roughly 4,600 hives rented at about $37 each, it can be hard to make ends meet, he said. About one-third of his business comes from pollination.
Current website:









Bad Beekeeping Blog


Bees and Beekeeping Culture




badbeekeepingblog.com






Archived website entries:


Beekeeper's Home Pages: Old News


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

He had an interestingly evasive answer to a very direct varroa question. Either he does not know the answer or does not want us to know the answer. For comparison, hypothetically ask, say, johno how he treats for mites. He will tell you all of it. Ask Addee and he will tell you you should try them all.... The answer was even worse than the expected "it depends". What does he use when supers are on? What does he put on right away when supers come off? It sounds like he knows.... Does he not want to admit he is using stuff off label? Does he not want his competition getting ideas to solve their problems? (Wait, 80,000 colonies: does he even have any competition?). Does he not want consumers to know what goes into their honey? All understandable concerns, of course....


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Amibusiness said:


> He had an interestingly evasive answer to a very direct varroa question. Either he does not know the answer or does not want us to know the answer. For comparison, hypothetically ask, say, johno how he treats for mites. He will tell you all of it. Ask Addee and he will tell you you should try them all.... The answer was even worse than the expected "it depends". What does he use when supers are on? What does he put on right away when supers come off? It sounds like he knows.... Does he not want to admit he is using stuff off label? Does he not want his competition getting ideas to solve their problems? (Wait, 80,000 colonies: does he even have any competition?). Does he not want consumers to know what goes into their honey? All understandable concerns, of course....


yes likely most of that is true.
with 80k hives some are in production, some in requeening, some in splits, some in pollination, so really he "could" be doing several kinds of treatments, due to having several kinds of operations going on, then with season , the "all of them " may be quite true.
As well testing
having bees in different climates
having eggs in more than one basket
having bees in more than one state, etc.


If I had 80k hives I would do 100 of each treatment I could find just to be on the right path. then 30k of the best 2 treatments.

The math here allows a lot of options.

far as ask and not tell, that for a big business is standard operating procedures, blabbing your company ideas, secrets, processes is just a bad idea for a businessman.

does Coke or KFC broadcast its recipe. ever hear "loose lips sink ships" 
the expectation that some big commercial would open up and do a tell all, is miss-set expectations IMO.

GG


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

GG I agree with you up to a point. I think in farming/beekeeping it comes down to doing the work not the secret recipe. I have not implemented his nectar management much but I appreciate that Walt was willing to divulge the things he had figured out and observed. If Addee told us what he was using we would still be ever so far away from competing with him. Knowing what product he uses and even how and when, is still not 80000 colonies. And anyone who is remotely his competition knows what treatments work for them, so his answer is for hobbiests and Sideliners and maybe small commercial. Nobody has even 40000 hives without already having figured out the answer for them. So in beekeeping the caginess is not needed, imo. Are there any fantastically wealthy folks out there who have enough money to buy their way into competing with him and actually have an interest in doing so? I think if they have that much money they would find more profitable areas to invest. I think they would be the only ones who would use the info in any way that might put downward pressure on his market. And even then I think they would likely not succeed, so no worries there.
Or he does not want to admit he uses off label chems. Or he does not want his consumers to know what they are consuming.... Both of which I frown on, given that he is pres of honey board. For a free market to actually work we need an informed consumer, so hiding what they are consuming is counter productive. And if they really have a quality product that they are proud to show how it's made and what is in it the price will go up because demand will go up and they won't have to compete with funny honey because they will have a different market. Obviously that is idealistic so don't rip that apart on this thread. I am proud of my honey and sell for top dollar. If he were proud and sold for top dollar that would benefit me because I would still keep ahead of him in purity and quality and his higher price would drive mine up. I do not try to undersell my competition. I try to increase quality and show the consumer and market what better quality means and looks like. Same with the tree work I do. Can they get someone to do it cheaper? Probably. Will they do as good of a job? Probably not. There are some folks who will be happy with the funny honey and the shoddy, messy tree job. And for the informed consumer that is not good enough and we have trouble keeping up with demand and have lots of repeat customers. I don't work for cheap and my clients don't have the mess and headache of cleaning up after a cheapskate.... And even one client who thought I should do the work for $20 an hour (ha!) paid my price and hired us again and still does. I told him that was a rediculous amount and he does not seem to mind what he gets for what he pays....


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

As with many commercial beekeepers, Adee is likely applying pesticides illegally and doesn't want to say anything to raise the ire of the government agencies again. Pretty hard to ignore the price savings for paying $2-3/strip of Apivar when they can apply Amitraz and Fluvalinate on to shop towels illegally for cents.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

You may well be correct UN. In which case, as the president of the honey board he should be working to get things approved and cost effective. That of course would increase his competition. Maybe the biggest stake holder should not be the president? Is he representing the industry or only his stake in it? (In case you are interested, this post is a much better read if you replace board with bored and stake with steak.....)


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Anyone remember Paramount Farming buying Headwaters Farms 20k colony operation and naming it Wonderful Bees?

Hard to think of a single benefit to the Adees in disclosing in any detail how they run their business.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

I don't recall that buyout. And still small potatoes in comparison....
It's true there may not be huge benefit to them helping the rest of us along, but I would hope the president of an organization has the constituents in mind. Terribly idealistic, I know! Obviously all presidents only have their own interest in mind....


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Amibusiness said:


> I don't recall that buyout. And still small potatoes in comparison....
> It's true there may not be huge benefit to them helping the rest of us along, but I would hope the president of an organization has the constituents in mind. Terribly idealistic, I know! Obviously all presidents only have their own interest in mind....


May be before the time you got bees. 2015 or so.

Their hive counts, Adees, are off by more than most sideline beekeepers have, so it's more like 'no' comparison instead of 'in' comparison. How many colonies do you have?

Just to be clear, I find it hard to think of a single benefit to the Adees in disclosing in any detail how they run their business. No member of the ahpa that I know has ever claimed K Adee didn't have the membership in mind or the industry in general. Not sure why you would insinuate otherwise.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Amibusiness said:


> GG I agree with you up to a point. I think in farming/beekeeping it comes down to doing the work not the secret recipe. I have not implemented his nectar management much but I appreciate that Walt was willing to divulge the things he had figured out and observed. If Addee told us what he was using we would still be ever so far away from competing with him. Knowing what product he uses and even how and when, is still not 80000 colonies. And anyone who is remotely his competition knows what treatments work for them, so his answer is for hobbiests and Sideliners and maybe small commercial. Nobody has even 40000 hives without already having figured out the answer for them. So in beekeeping the caginess is not needed, imo. Are there any fantastically wealthy folks out there who have enough money to buy their way into competing with him and actually have an interest in doing so? I think if they have that much money they would find more profitable areas to invest. I think they would be the only ones who would use the info in any way that might put downward pressure on his market. And even then I think they would likely not succeed, so no worries there.
> Or he does not want to admit he uses off label chems. Or he does not want his consumers to know what they are consuming.... Both of which I frown on, given that he is pres of honey board. For a free market to actually work we need an informed consumer, so hiding what they are consuming is counter productive. And if they really have a quality product that they are proud to show how it's made and what is in it the price will go up because demand will go up and they won't have to compete with funny honey because they will have a different market. Obviously that is idealistic so don't rip that apart on this thread. I am proud of my honey and sell for top dollar. If he were proud and sold for top dollar that would benefit me because I would still keep ahead of him in purity and quality and his higher price would drive mine up. I do not try to undersell my competition. I try to increase quality and show the consumer and market what better quality means and looks like. Same with the tree work I do. Can they get someone to do it cheaper? Probably. Will they do as good of a job? Probably not. There are some folks who will be happy with the funny honey and the shoddy, messy tree job. And for the informed consumer that is not good enough and we have trouble keeping up with demand and have lots of repeat customers. I don't work for cheap and my clients don't have the mess and headache of cleaning up after a cheapskate.... And even one client who thought I should do the work for $20 an hour (ha!) paid my price and hired us again and still does. I told him that was a rediculous amount and he does not seem to mind what he gets for what he pays....


Understood
I worked 35 years for a company that was the highest price, we did not compete on price but on quality.

so for example now we can buy from Fla Labs OA for X price, and on label OA from Man Lake for 5X.
If I do a proper test of both and determine them the same and use the 1X priced OA IMO I am not being "a criminal"
the OA is "legal" And I am using the cheapest brand I can Find.
for 10 hives it may not matter, For 80K it will.

the President gig can be a way he protects his investment, Like the cattlemen's associations of the days past.
I do Like the purity of your discussion/position, However in a free country all have their own idea of "doing it right" and most of the time they are good people. there is enough evil in the world to not push the folks in the slightly gray areas into the black. Just like the TF VRS Non TF positions, IMO we Keepers do not need to flail each other over perceived crossing of the lines, YA I know there are rules, but made by who for who... if the big commercials made the rules some would wine, if the Hobby keepers made the rule some would wine, Not really A prefect solution, But shades of grey

Glad you strive for quality as Do I.

GG


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Over my lifetime, I have probably helped to unloaded and sample 5 million pounds of honey from the Adees. No one had lighter and better tasting honey. Anyone who is disparaging his honey has no idea what they are talking about.

As for "loose lips sink ships", My father would tell everyone how he did beekeeping and honey packaging (Anyone remember the Muth jars from the 70's in a wooden crate??) The business went belly up and was taken over by an outsider. 

I earned my "Crazy" moniker by claiming that eventually only commercial beekeepers would be treatment free due to the huge capitol investment cost of decontamination equipment. At great cost, we have worked on two different pieces of equipment, and in some cases have seen a doubling of honey production. If the Adees have done so also, and there is a good chance they may have, do you think they should "give away the farm"???

Crazy Roland


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

The incentive to cheat is strong; The amounts of money is staggering. Two Companies And Five Individuals Charged With Roles In Illegal Honey Imports; Avoided $180 Million In Anti-Dumping Duties

Hats off and applause for Adee and friends; U.S. Honey Producers Bring Class Action Against Groeb Farms and Honey Solutions, Alleging Suppliers Sold Tainted Honey From China

And finally, hubris knows no bounds; Groeb Farms Exits Bankruptcy Protection With Sale to Peak Rock Copied from the link;
Peak Rock Capital will take control of the former Groeb Farms, now known as_* Natural American Foods Inc.,*_ after extending a $30 million loan to the company, which filed for bankruptcy protection after regulators caught it illegally buying Chinese honey through other countries to avoid antidumping tariffs. 

Alex


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

AHudd said:


> The incentive to cheat is strong; The amounts of money is staggering. Two Companies And Five Individuals Charged With Roles In Illegal Honey Imports; Avoided $180 Million In Anti-Dumping Duties
> 
> Hats off and applause for Adee and friends; U.S. Honey Producers Bring Class Action Against Groeb Farms and Honey Solutions, Alleging Suppliers Sold Tainted Honey From China
> 
> ...


Alex
if all a person wants is the Almighty Dollar, they will find a way to swindle someone or many someone's out of it.
Fortunately not every one is that way. many with profit motive are basically Honest, business people. we all know there are snake oil salesman out there so , buyer beware, and life continues.

You do not cheat by adding rice syrup to your honey correct? So either the resistance can be stronger, or the Incentive is not strong enough. It is unfortunate the few taint the pool for the rest of us but the devil is still out working..

GG


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

clyderoad said:


> Hard to think of a single benefit to the Adees in disclosing in any detail how they run their business.


Don’t know the players here, but I think this is valid. While I’m grateful to YouTubers for filling in gaps and helping me reach some goals, that (and any social media platform) can be a huge marketing tool. Nothing wrong with that as it’s an unbelievable investment in time.

So while most bee clubs and hobbyists sincerely desire to see an ever-larger group of people succeed, most businesses are not eager to train potential competitors, let alone for free by sharing things that worked or didn’t work.

About a decade ago I shared my office with an summer intern who had just graduated with a computer science degree from the university where I worked. When he started, I asked his goals and he said he wanted to write an open-source operating system (think Linux or Windows). This would be a massive undertaking even for a large team, and without a revenue stream it was basically a pipe dream. Three months later, as he prepared to leave for his first job he brought in a book to sign and say his goodbyes. His t-shirt read “Obfuscation”. In this context it means to go to great lengths to hide your code so that your work can’t be replicated or reverse-engineered.

Folks are fiercely protective of the thing that puts groceries in the fridge.

On the subject of treatments, I spoke with someone a few weeks ago who moved here from the west coast. I had read someone on a forum blaming commercial beeks for various woes, and my reaction was a reminder that many grants and studies done at a university-level are funded due to the huge potential of almonds or other crops and not so much the voting block of folks with a hive or two (although this is a significant number of people).

That said, he enlightened me of some stuff I didn’t expect with regard to off-label use of Tactic (Amitraz). ... At the end of the day, whatever beats back mites and sends little Johnny to college is what is going to get used. I think in general every beek I’ve met so far has a mind to produce quality bees and honey that they would feed their own kids (honey, not bees).

That said, my wife had bought a jar of honey from these folks and while it tasted good (and distinctive), it had been produced in CA. I couldn’t shake the feeling that the distinctive taste was Amitraz. 😂 I like the guy, but this will likely be poured out, and somewhere my bees can’t get to it.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

I understand Clyde may not have time or inclination to read my post. Or maybe he just did not understand it. He mentioned a 20k operation, which I think counts as small potatoes IN comparison to adees, which is what I said. I hope nobody thought I was trying to compare myself to adees, because he is certainly right that there is NO comparison there....
The potential benefits to the adees of being open and honest are in my earlier post, among others, I am sure. Since they are there I find it hard to believe that you can't think of them, Mr Clyde. You may well disagree, and you may well be right. But that is different than not able to think of them and one could have a discussion about that.....
I do not know adees and don't mean to insinuate that they are worse than anyone. My point was that I prefer leadership to be open and honest. We get precious little of that in beekeeping as well as anywhere else....
We run about 100 colonies. Since you asked, how many do you run, Clyde?
Thanks GG, looks like you actually understood my post. I agree, just because it is off label use does not make it bad, in my opinion. So whatever he is using may be perfectly fine, even if not technically legal. I think in general the laws take a while to catch up, if they ever do. My point about adees caginess is that it leaves the door open to the possibility that there may be something harmful in there. Ie if he were open and honest we could make our own decisions if we want to consume it or not. And in my experience and opinion an informed consumer is a better customer. This may not be true for adees, and doesn't that point to questions?
Roland, I have no experience with his honey nor mean to disparage it. That was neither my intent nor point, just to be clear.
On sinking ships, the question was not about the most successful methods, it was about product of choice. He could say which products they use without divulging so much info that anyone would be able to compete. And the people actually in a position to compete have already answered that question for themselves, otherwise they would not be in a position to compete.... He was willing to divulge that he liked the foundation and nobody is shocked claiming he will lose the farm over that....
He can keep putting groceries in his fridge and tell us what he uses. It's like one farmer telling the other he loves his new JD tractor. The other may be a Case man so they chat about tractors and nobody thinks the Case man is going to get the market edge because he now knows he could switch to JD and be more productive. The money is made by how the tractor is used not which brand it is....


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Gray Goose said:


> Alex
> if all a person wants is the Almighty Dollar, they will find a way to swindle someone or many someone's out of it.
> Fortunately not every one is that way. many with profit motive are basically Honest, business people. we all know there are snake oil salesman out there so , buyer beware, and life continues.
> 
> ...


GG
My post was in no way a defense of the cheating adulterating honey sellers. Only to illustrate why there are so many cheaters, large sums of money. Large sums of money attract criminals just as flies are attracted to large piles of ****, stinking up the entire area.
There is a fairly large packer of honey in my area that buys honey from all over the country and has hives scattered about the countryside. He makes no claims about the provenance of hos honey, but the problem is that all of his resellers of his honey claim it is local, pure and raw. He is doing nothing wrong and has no incentive to police the resellers. They buy this honey for $3.00 lb. and sell it for $7-8.00 lb., so yeah, they are being deceptive for the purpose of making some easy money.

The second post was to inform a certain poster that is always dumping on everybody that is running a successful, money making business. The Adees may have cheated on their treatment regimen in order to protect their investment during what must have been a terrifying time to be in a multi-million dollar honey bee business. I think anyone would have done so under those circumstances. I can only hope they did not sell contaminated honey. I'm in their cheering section because they were instrumental in bringing down
Groeb Farms.

The third link pretty much covers what is driving the demise of our country, GREED. After making millions of dollars selling crap to an unsuspecting public as a premium product at a premium price and avoiding million of dollars in tariffs they are only fined two million dollars after which they filed for bankruptcy thereby avoiding paying off debts to whom are undoubtedly the smaller players from which they bought real honey to mix with their ****. And then as if to thumb their noses at us, they have the audacity to reorganize under the name, *Americas Natural Foods.* Leave it to a Private Equity Fund to come up with that one.

Alex

Oh yeah, to answer your question, no, I do not add rice syrup to my honey. I do not add anything.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Roland said:


> I earned my "Crazy" moniker by claiming that eventually only commercial beekeepers would be treatment free due to the huge capitol investment cost of decontamination equipment


Anyone have a link to the thread(s) where this happened?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

William Bagwell said:


> Anyone have a link to the thread(s) where this happened?


here is one, there are many do a search on decontamination and user Roland
as a side note, since he predicted this in 2013 he still has 12 years to be correct 








Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?


A few years ago Ted K and I entered into a wager, that within 15 years even commercial beekeepers would be treatment free. In light of some comments made on the "unwritten rules..." thread about the impact of treatments on queens, I was wondering: Are any commercial beekeepers experimenting...




www.beesource.com


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Guys I learned maths elsewhere so something predicted in 2013 has now run for 8 nearly 9 years so there is only 4 years max left. And I think this thread started in 2009, and most of those treatment free guys have all become silent. With all due respect to Crazy Roland I do not think commercials are going to be treatment free for quite some years to come,


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

johno said:


> Guys I learned maths elsewhere so something predicted in 2013 has now run for 8 nearly 9 years so there is only 4 years max left.


Roland gave the figure 20 years, how can you cut that back to 12 or 13?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I just read that something predicted in 2013 would happen in 20 years and that he has 15 years to go so the figures do not ballance. My figure is also wrong,2013 to 2033m still leaves 11 years to go. However I am still thinking that it wont happen in that time span.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Amibusiness said:


> I understand Clyde may not have time or inclination to read my post. Or maybe he just did not understand it. He mentioned a 20k operation, which I think counts as small potatoes IN comparison to adees, which is what I said. I hope nobody thought I was trying to compare myself to adees, because he is certainly right that there is NO comparison there....
> The potential benefits to the adees of being open and honest are in my earlier post, among others, I am sure. Since they are there I find it hard to believe that you can't think of them, Mr Clyde. You may well disagree, and you may well be right. But that is different than not able to think of them and one could have a discussion about that.....
> I do not know adees and don't mean to insinuate that they are worse than anyone. My point was that I prefer leadership to be open and honest. We get precious little of that in beekeeping as well as anywhere else....
> We run about 100 colonies. Since you asked, how many do you run, Clyde?


I am not inclined to respond to double-talk normally, although this issue deserves clarification.
Try to grasp the following:

It's hard to think of a single benefit to the Adees in disclosing in any detail how they run their business. Must be hard
for you too since you have not discussed any, none, not one. Help me understand, list them for me.

"Are there any fantastically wealthy folks out there who have enough money to buy their way into competing" ?
Paramount is one such group and the reason for my mentioning Wonderful Bees.

Adees run 80k colonies, nearly 30% of all colonies in the USA. (The next biggest operation I hear of is supposed to be half that size, at best.)
The shear size of Adees operation and it's assets are incomprehensible to most in the bee business.
But you have the audacity to claim they should help other beekeepers and be more open about what they do? And you question motives?
Shameful.

Hot air comes to mind, full of hot air.


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## Boondocks (Sep 16, 2020)

It reads like clyderoad and Amibusiness are getting heated. with each other.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Which one will get to 80,000 hives first


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

wildbranch2007 said:


> here is one, there are many do a search on decontamination and user Roland
> as a side note, since he predicted this in 2013 he still has 12 years to be correct


Thanks! And "decontamination" is a much better search term than "crazy".


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Amibusiness wrote:
Roland, I have no experience with his honey nor mean to disparage it. That was neither my intent nor point, just to be clear.

Me - No worries.

Wildbranch - I am confused Below is a copy and paste of that thread:

I earned the name "Crazy" because I predicted that ONLY commercial people would be treatment free in 20 years. My reasoning being because of the large capitol expense of building chambers to decontaminate the equipment on a yearly basis to prevent the spread of CCD. The small hobbiest will get tired of having their bees die every year, whether they treat or not, once they get CCD.

It is alot easier to pull off treatment free in a sedentary commercial operation than a migratory, although the critical point then becomes overwintering success.

Me - If you go back to my post # 37 in this thread, It would appear that I am singing the same song.

Johno - read carefully, I am saying that ONLY commercial people will be treatment free, NOT that ALL commercial people will be treatment free. The side liners will not be able to afford the equipment, and the hobbyists will all be 5 years and 
done..

Crazy as always, Roland


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Clyde seems to have his knickers in a twist. I am sorry about that. For some possible benefits to adees, see my post #30 above. Clyde, I did answer your question about how many colonies we run. Why do you not answer mine?
To he clear, I am quite sure I am in awe of anybody running gobs of colonies. And I think 80000 is a higher number than gobs.... I know virtually nothing about their methods or products and am sure they do quite a fine job. I think our honey is better. I could also very well be wrong, for example I do not know if a neighbor open feeds when my supers are on. Does any self respecting beekeeper not think their own honey is better than someone who produces as much as the addees? Clyde, do you think your honey is better than theirs, or mine? I assume people are proud of their work and thus think theirs is better. I would not be offended at all if you think your honey is better than mine.
I have not looked them up but are wonderful bees still remotely close to competing with addees?
Further, I believe Clyde is also off by a zero. It is hard for me to imagine there are only 320,000 colonies in the us. Yet if adees 80,000 are close to 30% there would be even fewer. The only way I can get that math to work is if the adees have 3% or the nations bees. Which Clyde quite correctly points out is mindbogglingly incomprehensible to me and I assume others as well.
Maybe I should try again to write what I am audacious about, in this context: I don't think that him saying what treatment he prefers would constitute a risk to him or his business. Unless, as stated above, he is using something off label. You may be confusing some of my posts with some of UNs posts, which would be unfortunate. I trust that whatever he is using of label is effective against mites, cost effective, and not terribly unhealthy to eat. I know he knows he is producing a food product.... So I personally am not opposed to him using off label products, IF he even is. Which I do not know and was raising that only as one possible reason for his lack of answer. Any other reason for him not naming a product (as I mentioned above) would not constitute a risk, IMHO (obviously). For example, if he said he likes formic (holy cow that would be expensive x 80000!) he still would not have given me enough info to compete. I would still have to figure out how. I don't know why Clyde thinks telling someone what treatment you use or prefer is divulging too much information (though I would agree that he should not feel compelled to divulge anything he does not want to....) For example, we know Roland does not use any treatment for mites. Does this mean that we all now have the knowledge to compete with him with treatment free bees? Heck no! (In case that was not obvious from my post....)
So Clyde, if you want to discuss / disagree with my post, I think that's fine. Please do read it first though. Also, please check your math as I am a bit confused. And please tell us how many colonies you run (since you asked....). And please know that I do not mean to disparage the adees beekeeping in any way. And if you want to go to 80000 I'll cheer you on 😁


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

If you are involved with your State beekeepers association, I would ask to have one of the Adees present in your next conference.
Then you can get it from the horse's mouth.
I can tell you that we were VERY impressed with Richard's presentation years ago.
For example, their wood shop.....their wood shop is more like a saw mill.
Their vehicle maintenance shops are much more than some city's municipal facilities.
Rather than go back and forth, kicking each other in the groin here; why don't you invite them out to your next conference and get to know them?
You won't be disappointed.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

I am sure Harry has more than just one colony more than I. Besides that I think he is indisputably right. 😁
You aren't suggesting he would answer any of our questions though, are you? Or divulge any information that might be helpful to other beekeepers or companies?! Surely there can't be a single reason for somebody to do that!
(For clarity, that is not a jab at any of the adees. That is a terribly low groin shot at Clyde. I could not resist. And sorry Clyde, I think you walked into that one.... Feel free to delete, mods, if needed. There is no value here besides a feeble attempt at humor....)


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Amibusiness said:


> I am sure Harry has more than just one colony more than I. Besides that I think he is indisputably right. 😁
> You aren't suggesting he would answer any of our questions though, are you? Or divulge any information that might be helpful to other beekeepers or companies?! Surely there can't be a single reason for somebody to do that!
> (For clarity, that is not a jab at any of the adees. That is a terribly low groin shot at Clyde. I could not resist. And sorry Clyde, I think you walked into that one.... Feel free to delete, mods, if needed. There is no value here besides a feeble attempt at humor....)


So, my guess from my experience from beekeepers of all scales, is this:
If you were to sit down across the table at a luncheon or auction banquet and ask questions; they most likely would get answered.
Short of that, out in the hall or in the vendor area.
That's just been my experience. No guarantees.

As for mods deleting...
...banter is always welcome. 
We just need to know where banter ends and ugliness begins.
I'm confident that we're all here for a positive experience, and get all of that.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Roland, I am still not sure what you mean about treatment free, treatment free for CCD or treatment free for mite control. It is mite control that I have been considering as have not heard about CCD for some time.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

wildbranch2007 said:


> here is one, there are many do a search on decontamination and user Roland
> as a side note, since he predicted this in 2013 he still has 12 years to be correct
> 
> 
> ...


read the first 600 posts.
I see not much has changed.
Some interesting input from folks who do not post much any more.
Sad so many have been chased away by the "others"

GG


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Amibusiness said:


> Clyde seems to have his knickers in a twist. I am sorry about that. For some possible benefits to adees, see my post #30 above. Clyde, I did answer your question about how many colonies we run. Why do you not answer mine?
> To he clear, I am quite sure I am in awe of anybody running gobs of colonies. And I think 80000 is a higher number than gobs.... I know virtually nothing about their methods or products and am sure they do quite a fine job. I think our honey is better. I could also very well be wrong, for example I do not know if a neighbor open feeds when my supers are on. Does any self respecting beekeeper not think their own honey is better than someone who produces as much as the addees? Clyde, do you think your honey is better than theirs, or mine? I assume people are proud of their work and thus think theirs is better. I would not be offended at all if you think your honey is better than mine.
> I have not looked them up but are wonderful bees still remotely close to competing with addees?
> Further, I believe Clyde is also off by a zero. It is hard for me to imagine there are only 320,000 colonies in the us. Yet if adees 80,000 are close to 30% there would be even fewer. The only way I can get that math to work is if the adees have 3% or the nations bees. Which Clyde quite correctly points out is mindbogglingly incomprehensible to me and I assume others as well.
> ...


I was sent the following short message, it simply said:

"clyderoad, Proverbs 26:4
Regards ........."

I thanked them for their timely advice.😂


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Yes, I am sure the founders of great religions would be thrilled knowing that people would use their ideas to promote secrecy and self interest; to tease or cajole information out of others while never disclosing anything about themselves; to misinterpret and misrepresent and then claim the moral high ground; or to be as sarcastic as I.😁 Cheers!
Next time when Clyde and I have differing opinions I hope he will read my post and strive to understand my point before responding. Then the differing opinion is meaningful....


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Johno - I am using the definition of "Treatment free" as defined by Parker , that is only chemicals (not feed) are considered a treatment. If we assume Nosema c. was the cause of CCD at that time, Fumigilan (sp?) was used. Many chemials are used for mite controls. I am saying that without a large capitol investment in decontamination equipment, it is difficult for smaller operations to keep bees alive AND make honey. The case in point is the 5 years and out for most TF hobbyists..

I hope that clarified things.

Crazy Roland

P.S. And if you want details on the equipment needed, please send a 64,000 dollar check.


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## Boondocks (Sep 16, 2020)

Amibusiness said:


> Yes, I am sure the founders of great religions would be thrilled knowing that people would use their ideas to promote secrecy and self interest; to tease or cajole information out of others while never disclosing anything about themselves; to misinterpret and misrepresent and then claim the moral high ground; or to be as sarcastic as I.😁 Cheers!
> Next time when Clyde and I have differing opinions I hope he will read my post and strive to understand my point before responding. Then the differing opinion is meaningful....


If your main point was to be annoying, then you have succeeded. Sometimes it's just better to let things go.
I applaud your enthusiasm but disapprove of your messaging. 
I'm not implying you are a bad person, just that you are overly zealous in poking the bear.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Sadly, this bald tire with cords showing through has ran out of air.
There is nothing wrong with opposing views.
If there was, there would be no point in having this forum.
The good news and bad news is that we are all in this together.
Let's start the conversation over, leaving the steel toed cowboy boots to the groin behind, please.
This thread is OVER!


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