# Ideas for TF queen suppliers - 2017



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

What was the cause of death in your opinion?


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I know it's a stretch, but maybe you could try putting up some swarm traps next year. I got my start this way, putting them in my backyard. I hadn't actually seen a swarm either, caught 3 my first year with just scrap plywood and lemon grass oil, no comb just bars and comb guides. It would be an interesting experiment at the very least, and a box for your own bees to possibly move into if your bees feel the need to swarm. You might be surprised what's out there.


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

I don't know all of the circumstances of your hives and their management, but I can say that I do not think it is reasonable to blame the collapse of untreated hives on new queens, regardless of the source of those queens.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

And I might add to the Clairesmom comment. I think I know the source of one of your queens, and I have had 0 issues thus far. Extremely productive, good bees.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Bill Carpenter in Florida is a good choice to start off with. I can't make any promises but his bees can hold up but there are no guarantees. I've tried a fair amount of bees, haven't seen much yet in terms of anything bulletproof. What I see this year in terms of mite pressure is odd as well but a lot of my bees didn't have the feed to expand into large hives this year and had two periods of contraction so I believe brooding was much lower, therefore mite levels were maintained at lower levels as well. Kind of mirrors what that research paper found.... smaller colonies do better. Hives that did grow and brood a lot were hammered for the most part and really needed treatment come August whereas the hives that were split heavy and didn't have a lot of good forage looked decent for the most part, just half the size in terms of numbers. There is one swarm that moved in this year that I'm watching carefully though. Queen was a heavy brooder, solid capped brood and good hive population even though I took frames from it 3-4 times to make splits for other queens. Unfortunately she got superceded recently but the daughter got mated and laying so will have to keep an eye on it but I was bummed not to get more daughters off the old queen, was going to do it next year. Absolutely saw no mite issues with these bees though, so hopefully it maintains.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

JRG13 said:


> What was the cause of death in your opinion?


After soliciting opinions on these forums, from local beeks, I believe its caused by viral overload, possibly through varroa. What concerned me was that two different types of hives (a TBH with its own comb and a Lang), facing different directions in the yar headed by two TF queens purchased same day (could be same batch) ran into exactly same problem. Mite count performed by another beek showed 4% load on the TBH hive that started to show symptoms a week later then Lang, and has lost queen (dead) couple of days ago. I excepted these hives to handle higher load. 


These TF queens was installed last week of June. So they had atleast couple of brood cycles to turn over the previous bees.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

It goes without saying that I appreciate all the work TF Queen Breeders are doing and this thread is about what I CAN DO DIFFERENTLY (Queens, management etc) in 2017. A thread to put my future plans together and gather some feedback. 


Call me crazy, but I have a dream hive in mind . A hive (queen, genetics etc) just for backyard beekeepers. Something that may swarm, may split by itself, may supercedure, do whatever it likes, but survives winters and gives atleast one bar (about 8lb) of honey for the beekeeper. Thats all. Naive or stupid, but thats all I need in my dream, minimalistic hive


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Nordak said:


> I know it's a stretch, but maybe you could try putting up some swarm traps next year. I got my start this way, putting them in my backyard. I hadn't actually seen a swarm either, caught 3 my first year with just scrap plywood and lemon grass oil, no comb just bars and comb guides. It would be an interesting experiment at the very least, and a box for your own bees to possibly move into if your bees feel the need to swarm. You might be surprised what's out there.


Good idea. Have traps ready for 2017. In fact, I got a swarm this year from the association (thanks to them) guys and have a daughter queen heading one hive. It was caught as a swarm (not bee tree) in a town with lot of managed hives so I doubt it was feral.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I don't know the rules where you live in terms of how many hives per acre or what not (not even positive what I'm doing is legal in regard to my hive count) but your best strategy is probably going to be a numbers game. Are there areas close to where you live that are fairly remote, not many beeks? Might be worthwhile to see if there is something to work with from home first, if it's at all possible.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Nordak said:


> I don't know the rules where you live in terms of how many hives per acre or what not (not even positive what I'm doing is legal in regard to my hive count) but your best strategy is probably going to be a numbers game. Are there areas close to where you live that are fairly remote, not many beeks? Might be worthwhile to see if there is something to work with from home first, if it's at all possible.


Apparently NJ is in the processing of putting 3 hives max per 1/4 acre limit into regulation. And unfortunately, its all very urban / suburban for miles here. I am still going to put up traps and try to play some numbers game next year. I will also try to see if i can find someone to keep hives / nucs in their backyards - problem with that is, people expect stuff in return, which is not guaranteed for a newbee like me .


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

DaisyNJ said:


> After soliciting opinions on these forums, from local beeks, I believe its caused by viral overload, possibly through varroa. What concerned me was that two different types of hives (a TBH with its own comb and a Lang), facing different directions in the yar headed by two TF queens purchased same day (could be same batch) ran into exactly same problem. Mite count performed by another beek showed 4% load on the TBH hive that started to show symptoms a week later then Lang, and has lost queen (dead) couple of days ago. I excepted these hives to handle higher load.
> These TF queens was installed last week of June. So they had atleast couple of brood cycles to turn over the previous bees.


I haven't read the other thread, and don't take this hostile, but have you considered that management had anything to do with it? Dead queens, Swarms, etc.? And wouldn't swarms create a mite break How was the count taken?, & is 4% really that high?


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Maybe tell them in exchange for that, you will give them any excess honey the hive on their property generates. An interesting concept you have. Might be a good way to create your own buffer zone in the future.
I live in a very small town, so not really suburban, more like populated rural fringe.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> I haven't read the other thread, and don't take this hostile, but have you considered that management had anything to do with it? Dead queens, Swarms, etc.? And wouldn't swarms create a mite break How was the count taken?, & is 4% really that high?


Dont worry, I wont take anything as hostile. If anything, everyone on this forum are great and helpful. I did consider my management and it could still be a factor. But if anything, the splitting should have helped with mite rate. These queens were put into small but strong Nucs and fed syrup for building. They did do great for those two months, then a sudden collapse. If they ran into decease within couple of months with 4% mite count, I doubt they would have survived a year or more in full size hive (larger the bee count, larger the mite count, I read). 

For 2017, ideas so far

* Swarm traps
* Target more Nucs
* Procure from Carpenter and may be some Russians too
* Get couple more TF queens from NY, from different yards if possible


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

You only lost 2 of your 5 right? Split any that survive next yr and then split half of them again so the queens mate after the solstice


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Hey, this is a newb question, what is the significance of queens mated after the solstice? I've heard this expression several times.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Nordak said:


> Hey, this is a newb question, what is the significance of queens mated after the solstice? I've heard this expression several times.


My recollection is that Francis Huber reported that they would not swarm the following spring. I believe that some folks dispute this. Others have claimed that they produce more brood during the late summer and fall and that they tend to be better mated than queens that are mated in very early spring. I typically let the bees supersede the queen when they want.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Nordak said:


> Hey, this is a newb question, what is the significance of queens mated after the solstice? I've heard this expression several times.


A queen mated after the solstice will lay like a spring queen while others are slowing down for the season shes ramping up, this makes you go into winter with a bunch of fat young bees which is what you need for a long cold winter in the north


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Thanks David and Harley.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> A queen mated after the solstice will lay like a spring queen while others are slowing down for the season shes ramping up, this makes you go into winter with a bunch of fat young bees which is what you need for a long cold winter in the north


It´s called "stressbreeding" here and some tf beekeepers do it to have their own drones mate with the queens. One of the reasons we try to have drones the whole year through. (For them to be able to supersede, too).
Some meet with their hives to do this to have more genpool.

The problem is one third of queens will not come back from mating flights because in the open they are in danger becoming prey. Not enough density of drones and bees in the air this time of year.
And because of weather being unpredictable.
The queens forced to start laying exceedingly this time of year are mostly not living very long. But the first brood is very good.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have read on Mel's method of controlling the mites and raising the after the solstice queens.
So I follow him and Mike Palmer's method. I have not been treating since late Jan. Some of my
hives have heavy mite load though I like to see the commercial daughter queens mated
with the local drones will make it. With the source of your tf queens you should graft some
to make the expansion. This way you will have something to work with next year. I've already chosen
my breeder queens for next year when they overwinter this time. Some hives have near zero mites and I don't
understand it. On my 2nd year I also found some hives with high level of mite tolerance. So I'm trying to repeat
this process if possible. One idea I like to try is to oac (oxalis acid crystals) dust them all winter long. Then I can
compare the dust hives vs the no treat hives. The young queens also lay in small patches all winter long. Perhaps I can
help them a little by installing a small heat pet rock to keep the hive temp up all winter long. The mites will go crazy alright!


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I think the idea is to not depend on queens from the outside, but get daughters from them so they have a chance to make a genetic contribution. 

Its not just mites that bees have to adapt to. If bees are less stressed because they are adapted to their local environment, then mite thresholds can be higher. Put a TF queen in a new environment, the methods they use to suppress mites may no longer be adequate. 

My strategy is to depend on the increasingly local bees I have now, but bring in some new genetics over time. I will make daughters immediately to give the new genetics a chance to integrate. 

After that its make increase from success, first survival, then honey production. This year I made about half of new queens from 2 year survivors, and the other half from the best overwintered nucs that had gone through 1 winter.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

DaisyNJ said:


> I ended up treating rest of TF, VSH Carni and local queen hives with OAV last two weeks.


Just curious, but what kind of mite fall did your treating produce?


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

shinbone said:


> Just curious, but what kind of mite fall did your treating produce?


I dont have any sticky boards as every hive only has a solid bottom board. And all are 10 frame size, so dont want to keep doing alcohol wash every week.


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## Shazam (Mar 1, 2010)

Daisy,

I keep hives in NJ and in Cali. The issues you'll face catching swarms in NJ are:
NJ is a very treatment heavy state. This is the feedback I've gotten from other beeks in PA and NY, and from my experience talking to NJ beeks.
Swarms from these treated hives have genetics that aren't likely to allow them to thrive as feral bees and cast their own swarms (ie small feral bee population)
If you catch a swarm, it likely won't have genetics that will allow it to do well TF. 


I'm going to try and bring a queen or two next year to NJ, but even then, even if they survive, the drones those queens' daughters mate will will contain local genetics as well.

The paths of heavy treatment, treatment free, or a carefully managed treatment are contentious, but you have to be aware of your environment. If TF can have long term benefit, it will likely provide that benefit in regions where there are numerous beekeepers who maintain enough untreated hives that the local drone population allows the selected for traits to be sustained. It also means allowing some managed hives with good traits to be out there producing drones. You're just not going to see that in NJ in the near future, though there have been good tips for trying to get your own drones mating your queens here. In Cali, I'm much more comfy with focusing on swarms and splits to make up for hive losses, since so many beeks in my area don't treat at all (though also sometimes don't really manage their bees either, so are more beehavers than beekeepers.)

Just for reference I'm looking at McFarline Apiaries in vermont as one possible source of TF genetic queens. Haven't nailed down a decision.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

@Shazam, you are right. I did bit of research and I am yet to find any TF beek around here or within 50 miles in NJ. I found "natural beekeepers" but I know for fact that they treat. At association meetings, only couple of folks out of 200 or so , ever talk about breeding their queens or making standby Nucs. 

We captured a swarm in a town with large number of association participants. So pretty sure it was a swarm from managed hive. 

Would be interesting to go through this winter.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

As shocking as it may sound, but in those areas with high density of treated bees, if AI is part of the answer. I think that degree of manipulation has its risks, but if it gets the process going... The other is finding others who like the TF approach and creating a spatial area of TF bees.


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## Shazam (Mar 1, 2010)

DaisyNJ said:


> @Shazam, you are right. I did bit of research and I am yet to find any TF beek around here or within 50 miles in NJ. I found "natural beekeepers" but I know for fact that they treat. At association meetings, only couple of folks out of 200 or so , ever talk about breeding their queens or making standby Nucs.
> 
> We captured a swarm in a town with large number of association participants. So pretty sure it was a swarm from managed hive.
> 
> Would be interesting to go through this winter.


That's the dilemma in NJ. I've gotten my family in NJ into beekeeping, and they attend the local meetings. The state apiarist is no doubt a very very educated and capable fellow, but he also pushes heavy on treatment, if I recall Apivar and maybe oxalic acid. In the end, new beeks will be strongly influenced by the opinions of more experienced beeks (who in turn present their opinions as factual.)

That said, as many here point out, blindly going TF has issues, in terms of hive loss percentages, your potential impact on neighboring hives in terms of mite load in particular, etc. 

My view is, manage your hives, don't just 'have' a hive and let it survive or not. Be aware of their health and status. Then if you see they aren't doing well, make a decision based upon your assessment of their needs and the environment on whether to split, or treat, or feed, etc. I prefer TF, but if a hive is clearly succumbing to disease/mites/etc, I'll treat or find a way to address the issue. Then, when it is resolved it is okay to consider requeening for new genetics. That said, I do avoid miticides that leave residual toxins in the hive.

Anyway, in context of NJ, I've been treating more aggressively than I would with my Cali hives as it's clear the NJ bees simply aren't managing the mite loads themselves as well as my west coast bees. It doesn't make me happy philosophically, since I'd hope hobbyist beeks are the ones who have less commercial need to over-treat, and thus should be the ones who are helping select for queens and hives that require less treatment.

In terms of swarm #s, I can say from the central website that seems to consolidate swarm activity and calls between multiple regions, there are less calls fielded by the official beekeeping clubs in NJ, than in Alameda county alone in Cali. We get 300+ calls in our county alone in Alameda. I think a large part of that is a poorly set up system to inform people who see a swarm what to do or who they can call, and a more regional way of letting local beeks respond.

What area of NJ are you in?


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Shazam said:


> That's the dilemma in NJ. I've gotten my family in NJ into beekeeping, and they attend the local meetings. The state apiarist is no doubt a very very educated and capable fellow, but he also pushes heavy on treatment, if I recall Apivar and maybe oxalic acid. In the end, new beeks will be strongly influenced by the opinions of more experienced beeks (who in turn present their opinions as factual.)
> .....
> 
> What area of NJ are you in?


You are spot on about NJ on multiple points. I ended up treating rest of the surviving hives with OAV last two weeks. The association guys are very helpful but couple of them are real hit-them-hard-hit-them-often type guys. Interestingly, a more experienced queen breeder talks about Mr. Oliver, talks about brood breaks etc, so appears he is very open minded person. 

I am up in Bergen County, last exit on GSP North.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

its hard to market TF bees for sale in NJ when they are required to be inspected and treated before selling.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

COAL REAPER said:


> its hard to market TF bees for sale in NJ when they are required to be inspected and treated before selling.


They need to be inspected, but not sure about treatment being required. However, if heavy mite load shows up, then I assume one doesn't get the signoff from inspector.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

DaisyNJ said:


> You are spot on about NJ on multiple points. I ended up treating rest of the surviving hives with OAV last two weeks. The association guys are very helpful but couple of them are real hit-them-hard-hit-them-often type guys. Interestingly, a more experienced queen breeder talks about Mr. Oliver, talks about brood breaks etc, so appears he is very open minded person.
> 
> I am up in Bergen County, last exit on GSP North.


What's the issue? If they've survived treatment free, what does a treatment before sale affect anything about their resistance?


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

JRG13 said:


> What's the issue? If they've survived treatment free, what does a treatment before sale affect anything about their resistance?


You will have to ask NJ inspector


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I was just saying, if people ask, you tell them it's a state requirement to treat them before sale but they shouldn't need it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> A queen mated after the solstice will lay like a spring queen while others are slowing down for the season shes ramping up, this makes you go into winter with a bunch of fat young bees which is what you need for a long cold winter in the north


Isn't that true of any fresh queen though?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> Isn't that true of any fresh queen though?


yes but a freshly mated queen in march slows down by winter, a freshly mated queen after the solstice, times you right up for having a bunch of young fat bees in the box come winter time.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> Isn't that true of any fresh queen though?


Yes but only if you name them.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't name my queens anymore for they died out early.
The last batch of queens got mated and just started laying 10 eggs today on a hive check.
This is consider the very late after the solstice or early Autumn queens here. 3 more in the waiting 
to be emerge in a few days. Those might not get mated in time and maybe like last year's virgins to overwinter
them in a small nuc hive. Would like to repeat this experiment on them to see if virgins can be overwintered and be
mated next early Spring time. A late mated queen is just like a young queen say only 4 months old coming out of winter.
But again mine will continue to lay in smaller patches all winter long though still a very young laying queen. It is this method that beat the mites and help sustained my bee operation all these years. I only use Mel's and Palmer method so far!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Dups!


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## 357 (May 2, 2016)

I'm a n00b but my plan is to replace losses from overwintered nucs. If that fails due to nuc die-offs as well, I plan to replace bees with local nucs, preferably with VSH and/or Purdue mite biter genetics. Hygenic bees and bees that see Varroa as enemies should help keep them from needing treatments. It's no silver bullet, but local genetics will help. Plus, if you read Randy Oliver's website, feral genetics seem to help as well. His research shows that feral bees are very different genetically compared to commercial bees. Getting their (feral bees) level of genetic diversity is also likely to help.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> yes but a freshly mated queen in march slows down by winter, a freshly mated queen after the solstice, times you right up for having a bunch of young fat bees in the box come winter time.


I know, what I'm getting at is people act like the solstice is some line in the sand with magical properties. When really it's just queens mated sometime towards the end of June or so.

Or hell, maybe it is magic and I'm out in the weeds and this lady has it nailed down:
http://spiritbee.com/maidens/


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jwcarlson said:


> I know, what I'm getting at is people act like the solstice is some line in the sand with magical properties. When really it's just queens mated sometime towards the end of June or so.
> 
> Or hell, maybe it is magic and I'm out in the weeds and this lady has it nailed down:
> http://spiritbee.com/maidens/



I have the Carni bees and they know the seasons here because it is just like in old country! The Italian bees I have to make them home made sextant gadget so they dont party into winter time!


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

I'd like to see actual evidence that a late "solstice" queen truly lays more as we head into fall. I've heard it over and over yet I've never had anyone prove it to me with actual data. Perhaps its true but I cant say that I've experienced it. My experience says to take very end of May/to very early June mated queen over earlier May or later July mated queen any chance I get. I kept plenty of records over the years to show that May mated queens around here were more likely to be superceded than those mated in June or July and April mated queens in any quantity would be considered pure luck. And I have yet to see any evidence that a July mated queen has any better wintering success than one mated in June. In fact, I have to spend more time managing a colony headed by a July mated queen to get it upto speed that a June nuc wins out everytime for me. I'd prefer to not ever mate in August but sometimes it just cant be helped. 

If someone can point me to something showing evidence of solstice queens being more productive I'd like to read it. Thanks


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> I know, what I'm getting at is people act like the solstice is some line in the sand with magical properties. When really it's just queens mated sometime towards the end of June or so.


My great grandfather was all about full moons and hours of daylight, and he was a very successful farmer from a long line of farmers. Traditions endure by succeeding, and people succeed by enduring. Of course, now we just watch a YouTube.


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## moebees (Sep 29, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> I know, what I'm getting at is people act like the solstice is some line in the sand with magical properties. When really it's just queens mated sometime towards the end of June or so.
> 
> Maybe it is magic and I'm out in the weeds and this lady has it nailed down:
> http://spiritbee.com/maidens/


Actually it is a line in the sand with magical properties. It is the division between lengthening days and shorting days. Increasing versus decreasing day length has a profound impact on day length sensitive plants and animals. I have no idea if this is true for queen breeding and laying but I would not be at all surprised if it did.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

moebees said:


> Actually it is a line in the sand with magical properties. It is the division between lengthening days and shorting days. Increasing versus decreasing day length has a profound impact on day length sensitive plants and animals. I have no idea if this is true for queen breeding and laying but I would not be at all surprised if it did.


So does the egg have to be laid after the magical line? Or does it have to hatch after it? Queen emerged after it? Mated after it? What if she mates the day before AND the day after the solstice? What if any of these things are off by an hour?

Serious questions.

There's no doubt that things respond to the stimuli they experience though.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Riverderwent said:


> My great grandfather was all about full moons and hours of daylight, and he was a very successful farmer from a long line of farmers. Traditions endure by succeeding, and people succeed by enduring. Of course, now we just watch a YouTube.


And my great grandpa hand planted and hand harvested his corn on his 80 acres into the 1960s.

What's the point?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Queens mated on Friday the 13th will always be mean colonies too.... Honestly, I've never taken any stock in the Solstice theory, but that's just me.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I will bet a dollar to a doughnut that a week of weather with no sunshine will have a lot more effect on the dynamics of a colony than the day length variance bracketing a week near the end of June.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

crofter said:


> I will bet a dollar to a doughnut that a week of weather with no sunshine will have a lot more effect on the dynamics of a colony than the day length variance bracketing a week near the end of June.


My great grandpa loved doughnuts.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Hey jw, I really like that link you posted! Reminds me of that esoteric bee class I visited.

I´m amazed about your presence once again at the tf forum! Welcome to the light!:applause:

Serious: I think crofter is right. 

But our weather is much less unpredictable in late summer. Better flow, too. 
After loosing their queens on mating flight two times, one hive had a laying queen after solstice and she layed 6 brood combs dadant in 2 days. Only eggs.
Last year one hive superseded in september, it`s now one of the best.
But most of my hives have drones throughout the year, so good mating.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> Hey jw, I really like that link you posted! Reminds me of that esoteric bee class I visited.
> 
> I´m amazed about your presence once again at the tf forum! Welcome to the light!:applause:


I'm 98% TF, isn't that enough?
And I don't even treat my colonies by splitting them or letting them swarm.

Does anyone know if the earth lumens, chakras, and scarps are more defined after the summer solstice? Perhaps that accounts for the better queens? Or maybe because the days are shorter she can better see the lemniscates that the drones are drawing? Also, what language do drones weave their bed of prayers in? Is it the same language that the drone sings the birth song in? Or are their bi-lingual drones? Or do they sing it in their native language of Italian, German, or Russian?



> These light emitting areas where the sun speaks with the earth are gravitationally uplifting places of great levity and the drones know this. The drones’ wondrous eyes are capable of seeing the lumen glow, another function of how their eyes differ from the worker bees. Within the lumen the gnostic drones spin and whirl, taking great delight in the lightness of the air that buoys their heavy bodies up.
> 
> Drones are drawn to a specific place within the lumen often a few hundred feet up where a higher focus of intention occurs. Humans named these locations drone congregation areas but to bees, the drone site is called a SCARP and known to all the colonies in each area. Drones from all the nearby hives spend much of their afternoons drifting in the scarps. The scarps bring together drones from different hives, thus offering mating queens an expansive range of genetic diversity.
> 
> ...


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

My drones by this point probably have a regional dialect. I'm guessing they probably sing something akin to modern country.


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## moebees (Sep 29, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> So does the egg have to be laid after the magical line? Or does it have to hatch after it? Queen emerged after it? Mated after it? What if she mates the day before AND the day after the solstice? What if any of these things are off by an hour?
> 
> Serious questions.


Oh yes I can tell these are very serious questions. And I can tell I am dealing with a real biologist here. I suppose you think the leaves change in the fall because of falling temperatures and not lengthening night.


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## moebees (Sep 29, 2016)

crofter said:


> I will bet a dollar to a doughnut that a week of weather with no sunshine will have a lot more effect on the dynamics of a colony than the day length variance bracketing a week near the end of June.


Perhaps if you are talking short term affects but seasonal changes and signals are much more likely due to things like day length. But i would not take that bet because most places doughnuts probably cost a dollar.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

My money is on crofter, is anyone giving odds?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

With all these descriptive writings, why not just call it a queen's mating flights.
Sure, the after the solstice queens I have for 2 seasons in a row. Still experimenting on
them to find out its benefits. Read up on Mel's method of expansion using the July queens.
Though the mites will be reduced significantly without any cap broods. Now you can truly say tf. 
Two things that are true that I found out: 1) They do act like a newly mated queen on next Spring time. The
reduced daylight will caused them lay in small patches during the winter time. The carnis and Italians after the
solstice queens will not shut down. And they do lay in any empty cells except the drone cells even with a reduced in
bee population taking advantage of the longer live winter fat nurse bees.
2) Comes next early Spring they expanded their brood nest faster than the 2 years old since they do not lay a lot during
the winter months and only 2 months or so of laying the eggs. Again with the fat winter 
bee's help they do make a lot of bees. To me it is important to keep some overwinter queens in a nuc for this fast expansion
mode. There are many other application using the after the solstice queens that I will not mention here. Why not keep some
hives to experiment a little to find out more. I did!


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> Your mind (the best thing you will ever have) was designed to interact with the world around you--to interpret seeing, feeling, hearing, tasting, smelling; to learn, to question, to remember, and to make connections. Its made to experience, to comprehend, to apprehend, to remember and to discern cycles and patterns. Solar cycles, lunar cycles, weather patterns, water cycles, heat cycles, fertility cycles; the life cycles of hundreds of different plants and animals, and also to be somehow aware of cycles we can't fully know or describe--we need all of this to inform and guide a wise action. ----Kirk Webster


And our wise action will be to let the bees decide. 
How many queens are superseded in late summer...the bees in need of a brood brake....do you always know, if they are not marked?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

moebees said:


> Oh yes I can tell these are very serious questions. And I can tell I am dealing with a real biologist here. I suppose you think the leaves change in the fall because of falling temperatures and not lengthening night.


I suppose you won't answer my questions. 

If it's a magical line for queens the questions posed above matter.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

JRG13 said:


> Bill Carpenter in Florida is a good choice to start off with. I can't make any promises but his bees can hold up but there are no guarantees. I've tried a fair amount of bees, haven't seen much yet in terms of anything bulletproof. What I see this year in terms of mite pressure is odd as well but a lot of my bees didn't have the feed to expand into large hives this year and had two periods of contraction so I believe brooding was much lower, therefore mite levels were maintained at lower levels as well. Kind of mirrors what that research paper found.... smaller colonies do better. Hives that did grow and brood a lot were hammered for the most part and really needed treatment come August whereas the hives that were split heavy and didn't have a lot of good forage looked decent for the most part, just half the size in terms of numbers. There is one swarm that moved in this year that I'm watching carefully though. Queen was a heavy brooder, solid capped brood and good hive population even though I took frames from it 3-4 times to make splits for other queens. Unfortunately she got superceded recently but the daughter got mated and laying so will have to keep an eye on it but I was bummed not to get more daughters off the old queen, was going to do it next year. Absolutely saw no mite issues with these bees though, so hopefully it maintains.


Do you have an email or phone number I can get?


Oops, just found them on web. Thanks for sharing .


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

jwcarlson said:


> If it's a magical line for queens the questions posed above matter.


i am in agreement with you carlson, and don't believe there's likely to be a magical line. 

a post solstice queen here would mean the queen would likely not be busy laying much during our summer dearth, then experience a minor brooding event in the fall, and then come spring be relatively fresh going into her first major brooding event.

indeed, and it hasn't been across the board, but i've noticed a trend that colonies headed by a queen produced late in the previous season tend to be among the better honey producers. i assume this is in part because they are among the colonies that were prevented from swarming, and in part because those colonies are not likely to experience queen failure at a critical time when it comes to getting the work force optimized for hoarding nectar.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> i am in agreement with you carlson, and don't believe there's likely to be a magical line.


That's all I'm saying.

I just like to add a little flare.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> ....a post solstice queen here would mean the queen would likely not be busy laying much during our summer dearth, then experience a minor brooding event in the fall, and then come spring be relatively fresh going into her first major brooding event....


I found quite the opposite on the June, July, August and
Sept. raised queens. These are the young queens that will lay
through our yearly summer dearth. [Imagine what would happen when
you give them a pollen sub.] As they are still young and
innocent, they will not stop egg laying. They keep on laying and the
workers will take down the excess broods when in a severe dearth to
conserve hive resources. Comes early Autumn time when the flow resumes, they will crank up
eggs production to grow the big fat winter bees. The late Sept. mated queens will just
lay through next early Spring time. Somehow they seem to just ignored the weather
outside and continue to do what a queen needs to do. Now until the 
weather turns colder they will continue to lay. After the Halloween is
our usual Autumn weather though on some year it will be stretch out to
early Nov. During these time the young queens are still laying for the winter bees.
In Dec and late Jan, you can still see smaller patches of broods. Then in 
early Feb. they will try to expand the brood nest again. Normal size brood
frames will be seen in late March and April on on the flow. 
Not sure what is magical about it. But the mites will get a good kick to knock
down their population even without an oav treatment. [Imagine what would happen when
you incorporated the mite biting and vsh genetics.] The natural summer dearth will
give them a nice brood break to reduced their population. Nautrally, the brood nest
is smaller but they will expand when the big fat winter bees resume in the early Autumn time.
Managing your hives using this method will be quite challenging in a short season bee environment.
I'm maximizing the bee's potential and their natural mite fighting ability. Who said natural beekeeping cannot be done? 
Thanks to Mel's method for the after the solstice mite controlling strategy!
Thanks to Michael Palmer for his nuc management to overwinter in smaller colonies! 



I just put the 2 (method, colonies) together:


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I skimmed the posts and I may have missed it. But, has anyone tried Latshaw queens in their treatment free hives? Joe doesn't treat his bees/queens. I know they can be hard to find since he is geared towards the commercial producers and only raises breeder queens himself.

Tom


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Wow, beepro, you just put in words what I experienced the first time in my beekeeping life.



> They keep on laying and the
> workers will take down the excess broods when in a severe dearth to
> conserve hive resources.


That´s just what my queen, mated after solstice, did and the workers reduced the brood to such a degree they could handle this situation in balance with nature.
:thumbsup:
Now they bring pollen like crazy to have nice winter bees.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Shusssshh!
Now they know our little tf bee secrets.
Glad that we are on the same page and not just
the only one talking and expanding my apiary all by myself here.
This is my 2nd year duplicating this process. I'm sure others before me already
had theirs all figured out. I'm always asking how come the many websites have the
tf queens for sale. While the bees are expanding I'm busy with adding more bee equipment for
the expansion for the coming season. Yes, they are gathering pollen and nectar for the winter now. There is a very drought
resistant medicinal plant with thick leaves blooming white flower stalks now. I'm not sure what this plant is call. They only bloom in the Autumn time with the Loquat trees just when the bees are storing for the coming winter. The bees gather nectar like crazy on it now!


White flower stalks:


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Could be polygonum aubertii

https://www.google.de/search?client...jk3MSi4sz0zKTE0sy8_OscvLLU4sUUAWLAWGWACVSAAAA


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Ya know Beepro/Siwoke - I had made some nucs up to where this is about the time they mated as well - going to have to check these queens in another week when I arrive home - we'll see


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Just in time for the winter prep, eh.
I still have 2 more cells that I have not check on them yet.
Too cool to open the hives when the daily temp is in the mid-60s.
Reduced the hive entrances tonight to keep things a bit warmer. The
solar gears should be arriving by next week to put some warmth into the hives.
Night temp. can dip into the low 50s when they form the clusters.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Not going to have to do much on the winter prep - I still have a 30 BBL honey crop on them that looks like it will be winter feed. That will keep me hopping next spring on splitting. I did this before and had to split every hive at least 3 ways - some of them 4 or 5. Was a busy spring and it looks like next spring I'll be doing it again. But on that note - I'll be having several 100 nucs for sale in early march. In all that new equipment I don't sell this winter. Getting geared up for it right now


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Uggh, sometime you just have to slow down a bit and smell the beautiful (blooming moon) flowers!
If not life will passed you by very quickly. 
I've been chasing the mite cycle over a year to learn more. Then found out something interesting 
about the after the solstice mated queens behaviors over the winter months. It is all about the learning until
the end of my time. Have this feeling that I'll be chasing after the bee gears come this Spring time.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Shazam said:


> My view is, manage your hives, don't just 'have' a hive and let it survive or not. Be aware of their health and status. Then if you see they aren't doing well, make a decision based upon your assessment of their needs and the environment on whether to split, or treat, or feed, etc. I prefer TF, but if a hive is clearly succumbing to disease/mites/etc, I'll treat or find a way to address the issue. Then, when it is resolved it is okay to consider requeening for new genetics.


I'd make it a priority to find feral colonies near you. There will be pockets where forage is good yet beekeepers thin of the ground. Get yourself available as first point of call for cut outs and swarm collections, and you'll start to build a picture of the likely treatment densities. Tour, use maps, and think about likely places bees might have managed to escape the dead hand of treatment regimes. Then park mating hives in those places and start hauling in the local self-sufficient genes. Try to establish long-term sites for this purpose.

Local self-sufficient genes are what you really want: put a good slice of your energy, imagination and charm into getting them. (You also want their mites, so put good bait boxes in the same places.)

Good luck,

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

beepro said:


> INot sure what is magical about it. But the mites will get a good kick to knock
> down their population even without an oav treatment. [Imagine what would happen when
> you incorporated the mite biting and vsh genetics.]


Um, is this advice about how to keep bees incorporating miticides?

Mike (UK)


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I am not against miticide or tf options.
I do both when necessary at the same time purposely having the
mites around to do my little bee experiment. They are hard to get rid of anyways
because I don't use the harsh chemicals. All of my virgin queens emerged
in a highly mite infested hives. Some day on a hive inspection I saw the mite on
the virgin queen's body. Just ignored that!
Of course, my goal is to find some mite resistant bees to grow my operation. For now if
they can live with the local mites I am happy enough. So far no hives have crash yet. Still a
few more months to go before I can make the final decision of which hives.


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## brianjhagy (Jul 16, 2016)

I tried some Russians in 2015, also my first year of Beekeeping. I bought a Russian package for a top bar hive, it wintered nice and I was able to split it in June last year. The second hive did not make it through the winter as they absconded. I have two TF topbar hives now, hopefully they get through the winter ok, not very optimistic about my Italians, the Russians (offspring from the initial package I bought) have a good shot though. 

Have you ever heard of Goldstar Honeybees? 

I am going to give them a shot next year, think they are in the Northeast, and TF.

I have bought all my bees from Kelley Bees in KY, but was less than impressed with the crop I got this year.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

brianjhagy said:


> I tried some Russians in 2015, also my first year of Beekeeping. I bought a Russian package for a top bar hive, it wintered nice and I was able to split it in June last year. The second hive did not make it through the winter as they absconded. I have two TF topbar hives now, hopefully they get through the winter ok, not very optimistic about my Italians, the Russians (offspring from the initial package I bought) have a good shot though.
> 
> Have you ever heard of Goldstar Honeybees?
> 
> ...


Goldstar sources their bees from Wolf Creek apiary in TN, as I understand it.


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## brianjhagy (Jul 16, 2016)

Yeah, I looked into them in the past and saw that. Might be good for me in Kentucky, relative closeness of Tennessee. 

I have also thought about trying BeeWeaver queens. Their website says they have been TF since 2001 I think. I had some pretty heavy mite loads in my drone brood this year. I did not get to give the bees as much of my time as I wanted this year due to work schedule, next year will be better. Hopefully my two actives with overwinter though.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

I bought queens from mcfarline (vt). I will know if they are good next spring.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I just bought queens from Wildflower Meadows in CA. Will let you know how they do in the eastern part of VA. VSH Italians from a treatment free apiary.

As to the original posters question of what a TF beekeeper can do to help keep the mites low...
For all my hives, regardless of where the queen came from (and I usually prefer my own locally made ones), I use diatomaceous earth on the solid IPM board underneath the screened bottom board, for any time that the bottom board is in (sometimes too hot in this area to keep them on in July/Aug). Any mites that drop off the single story topbar hives will end up in the dust and can't get back on the worker bees coming in. (also great control for SHB's).

I also give each main hive a 30 day brood break after the summer solstice and pull the original queen to a nuc and let the hive requeen. This is from late June into late Aug as I don't like all of them queenless at once.

I will also dust with powdered sugar on a bi-weekly basis starting in May to encourage the adult bees to groom. During the broodless period, I do it weekly. (for some TF beekeepers, this one isn't acceptable)

I also pull capped drone brood at various times to remove the majority of the mites in the capped brood.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I'd be more interested in keeping to topic and finding queen producers that actually are treatment free, and have been for at least 5+ years. Fusion_power and Squarepeg here in the forums are treatment free, but they are not queen producers selling to the general public. 

And I mean TF queen producers, not producers that only practice "organic treatments" such as the likes of wolfe creek apiaries who seems to treat with essential oils and garlic. No thanks, I'm not interested. And another thing, I'm not really interested in artificially inseminated queens either. I'd prefer knowing anyone out there that is TF over many years, and practices open mating in their operation.

Here is a list of what I've found so far:

Bweavers in Texas... yes, but a little bit mean sometimes? http://www.beeweaver.com/

Bill Carpenter in Florida... http://www.carpentersapiaries.com/Pages/default.aspx

Olympic wilderness apiaries in Washington state... http://www.wildernessbees.com/

WildFlower Meadows in California... lines of bees from Glenn Apiaries http://wildflowermeadows.com/

Pendell apiaries in California, Cordovans from Glenn's stock...
http://pendellapiaries.com/

McFarline Apiaries in VT... http://www.mcfarlineapiaries.com/

RidgeTop Apiaries in Tennessee... http://www.ridgetopapiaries.com/

http://vpqueenbees.com/buy/production-queens ... is a list of producers that uses 
Adam Finkelstein & Kelly Rausch ( http://vpqueenbees.com/ ) breeder queens in their operations. You will have to contact each in the list to find out of they are totally TF operations or not.

Read through the sites listed above, I've not researched heavily into all of them, but so far it looks like they don't put chemicals or other "stuff" in their hives, at least not on a regular basis.

If anyone has any other TF queen distributors to mention here, Please Do!!!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

RayMarler said:


> I'd be more interested in keeping to topic and finding queen producers that actually are treatment free, and have been for at least 5+ years. Fusion_power and Squarepeg here in the forums are treatment free, but they are not queen producers selling to the general public.
> 
> And I mean TF queen producers, not producers that only practice "organic treatments" such as the likes of wolfe creek apiaries who seems to treat with essential oils and garlic. No thanks, I'm not interested. And another thing, I'm not really interested in artificially inseminated queens either. I'd prefer knowing anyone out there that is TF over many years, and practices open mating in their operation.
> 
> ...


Great point, Ray.The aforementioned McFarline apiaries in VT is completely free of treatments. Anarchy Apiaries (Sam Comfort) is one as well.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I think the OP clarified what answers they were looking for in Post #8.


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

Johnny Thompson at Broke T Queens. No treatments at all, hard or soft, nothing. 1-601-562-0701. He has V.P. Queens, both the Allegro (Italian) and the Spartan (carni). He also has Dr. Harbo and I think Jeff Harris has a queen line with him as well now. I have used all of his lines with success. I like the Allegro and Dr. Harbo's best. They do better going into the second and third generation. All are open mated queens. Hope this helps.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Perhaps we need a sticky, apart from the Treatment Free members listing, that folks would have easy access to. Someone could make a comprehensive list and add to it as needed. Looks like Ray already got a good start on it.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I meant no offense to Daisy in any way, I did read every post of this thread so far. I also assumed from the title of the thread that places to purchase TF queens were also an interest in starting this thread, and that is what I myself am after and is why I made the post #80 that I did. I hope I'm not stepping on any toes, it was never my intent to do so.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

J.Lee said:


> Johnny Thompson at Broke T Queens. No treatments at all, hard or soft, nothing. 1-601-562-0701. He has V.P. Queens, both the Allegro (Italian) and the Spartan (carni). He also has Dr. Harbo and I think Jeff Harris has a queen line with him as well now. I have used all of his lines with success. I like the Allegro and Dr. Harbo's best. They do better going into the second and third generation. All are open mated queens. Hope this helps.


I tried 3 queens in 2014... they didn't hold up at all in Cali. I do still have one left though.


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

Sorry they did not work out for you JRG13. As it has been said before, I think location has a lot to do with the performance of bees in the treatment free school of thought. I think location has alot to do with the performance of any bees period.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> I tried 3 queens in 2014... they didn't hold up at all in Cali. I do still have one left though.



I would consider it promising if you have one 2 year queen left, at least what I have understood of your circumstances in CA. 

Is it correct, information in your "about me" page, that you have been keeping bees for 2 years? Were those your first bees?


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

All I know of is Sam Comfort (New York?) and Mcfarline (vt)


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Juhani Lunden said:


> I would consider it promising if you have one 2 year queen left, at least what I have understood of your circumstances in CA.
> 
> Is it correct, information in your "about me" page, that you have been keeping bees for 2 years? Were those your first bees?


I started in 2012 Juhani. I bought the Broke-T queens in 2014 in summer, overwintered at about 4-5 frames of bees, never did much the next year. Mind you, they always seemed to look ok, few nice frames of brood, were always flying but just never did expand much. I think I got them to a deep and a medium by end of 2015, maybe pulled a split off them during the year. I accidently pulled the queen from one making a split, so she went to a Nuc, the parent hive requeened successfully, lost that one, the queen in the nuc, and one of the other original queens overwinter to mites. The one that survived actually was probably one of the better hives to overwinter into 2016 but they're back down to a few frames of bees if that and had serious mite issues this summer, but I expect them to pull through after treating and feeding them. I treated them in late spring 2015, they did not get a fall treatment which is pretty much why I lost them. 

This has been pretty much my experience with any 'treatment free' stocks though. Most are decent bees, but the mite resistance is not good enough for here if they actually have any. That being said I don't have queen issues people are talking about, Most of my queens, bought or raised make it to two years just fine before getting superceded and I caught 4 swarms in 2013 that kept their original queens until this year where they were finally superceded.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Ok, thanks.

It sure is interesting to follow what the Arista Foundation is achieving in the coming years. https://aristabeeresearch.org/ They try to just fix the VSH genes in their superior Buckfast stock (which are so good that even Jeff Harris was astonished, according to this article, linked in one thread). Is the result a small brood area hive or something else? 

Their main method is one drone inseminations (SDI) combined with the calculation of VSH factor of each SDI queen (a lot of work, does need longer summer than we in Finland have).


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> http://www.toleranzzucht.de


for us hobbyists, having a more natural point of view, avoiding bottlenecks and knowing that more is necessary to have resistance and keep it than queen breeding ( no offense meant )

it is important to have stock like that:

















this mutt queen (carniolan) is 4 years old, this is her comb, she is on 4.9 cell and was never treated


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> for us hobbyists, having a more natural point of view, avoiding bottlenecks and knowing that more is necessary to have resistance and keep it than queen breeding ( no offense meant )


Approaching creation with respect, humility, and patience is often ridiculed, but seldom embarrassed. It is a perspective not a method. Even varroa have viruses.


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## costigaj (Oct 28, 2015)

Solomon Parker's site http://parkerbees.com/ has some TF Queen suppliers listed. No experience with any of them.


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## nolefan1985 (Mar 23, 2016)

I'm in Florida and wondered who Bill is and how you could contact him, thanks


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

http://www.carpentersapiaries.com/


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

deleted by SiWolKe


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

JRG13 said:


> Bill Carpenter in Florida is a good choice to start off with. I can't make any promises but his bees can hold up but there are no guarantees. I've tried a fair amount of bees, haven't seen much yet in terms of anything bulletproof. What I see this year in terms of mite pressure is odd as well but a lot of my bees didn't have the feed to expand into large hives this year and had two periods of contraction so I believe brooding was much lower, therefore mite levels were maintained at lower levels as well. Kind of mirrors what that research paper found.... smaller colonies do better. Hives that did grow and brood a lot were hammered for the most part and really needed treatment come August whereas the hives that were split heavy and didn't have a lot of good forage looked decent for the most part, just half the size in terms of numbers. There is one swarm that moved in this year that I'm watching carefully though. Queen was a heavy brooder, solid capped brood and good hive population even though I took frames from it 3-4 times to make splits for other queens. Unfortunately she got superceded recently but the daughter got mated and laying so will have to keep an eye on it but I was bummed not to get more daughters off the old queen, was going to do it next year. Absolutely saw no mite issues with these bees though, so hopefully it maintains.


I got 5 of Bill's queens this year for trial... lost one to beekeeper stupidity, the other 4 are doing well. Good brood patterns and gentle and easy to work. I only did one wash for mites on those 4, but they were lower than the rest of the nucs in that yard with Italian queens. I still felt they needed to be treated so I treated all of the nucs in that yard with OAV. I have not taken his queens though a winter up here. I'll know more in the spring but I'm planning to order more from him


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

My question is if they don't have the mite pressure are they going to lose their mite
fighting ability next year? How do you find out if they can resist the mites if you oav them?
What to do from now on?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

As long as the counts indicate they need treatment I'll treat.


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

I wanted to bump this post since we are seeing pollen in Georgia now, and I know a lot of people (including me) are looking at winter losses and trying to figure out the next step. I'm shocked at how early pollen started; I started beekeeping last March, and didn't realize how much of the Spring I missed. I have no idea where they are getting it from.

Bee Culture Magazine mentioned Carl Webb of Clarkesville GA in an article about Russian bees. He sounds mostly treatment free from the description. I wasn't sure if he sold to the public and will try to do some local research (his website only sells honey). Russians have a reputation for getting mean in generation #2; do any of you have personal experience with that? (I might stick with Carnis).

I'm looking to expand my genetic diversity this year, and wanted to be sure if any of you find exciting new sources of TF bees, let's list them here.

Thanks!
mike


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Carl would be a good source for information if he doesn't sell stock. Like where to buy good queens or nucs.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

I had some MP queens sent in last July and set them up in nucs to overwinter. I liked what I saw this fall. Somehow I got the impression that somewhere along the way his genetics might contain some Russian. I'll snap a few pictures this spring.


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