# Crystallization



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It seems that crystallization of honey occurs faster in the jar than it does in the comb. Is that my imagination?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

You should get many different responses to your observation.
In the comb and in the hive will have a much less temperature fluctuation compared to in the jar.
Crystallization has many different factors involved.
for example;
The levulose and dextrose ratio in the floral source,s.
The temperature of the solution and the solubility of the solute in the solution with water being the most common solvent.
The presence of seed crystals are very much involved.
I will let some others chime in with their input.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

BEES4U said:


> The levulose and dextrose ratio in the floral source,s.
> .


Is it a high Levulose to Dextrose that enhances crystallization... or vice versa?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

What ever the ratio's are wouldn't they be the same between the jar and the comb? Or are you saying some cells in the comb crystallized next to others that I did not see and then they became seed crystals for the honey in the jars?



> In the comb and in the hive will have a much less temperature fluctuation compared to in the jar.


I would have thought the exact opposite.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

to keep comb honey from granulating you put it in a freezer and it maintains liquid. same honey, just tempeture difference.


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## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

Beeware; Could you elaborate into how to keep honey liquid?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Here we go again. Do a Search and you should find a number of Threads about crystalization.

Ace,
When you extracted your honey, perhaps you mixed honey from many different frames into the same batch. Thereby getting late honey mixed in w/ earlier honey. Maybe even some aster honey, which is prone to crystalize rather quickly, in jars and in combs. 

It's hard to answer your question, not really knowing what you have observed.


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## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

Thanks Mark, I went back and found your recommendations about keeping honey liquid, by using the microwave for 1 to 2 minutes. I went and researched some more, and also find that your recommended method, is the most destructive destructive method there is; for it nullifies all the good stuff on honey. 

Thanks for this wonderful learning experience.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You are welcome. There is alot more info on crystalization and how to make honey liquid again. Other, more gentle ways. Use them in good health.

And, prove it to me. What good stuff in honey is lost? Not flavor and sweetness, which is mostly what people who use honey want. 

Besides, is this what Acebird was asking about by opening this Thread? He didn't ask about how to keep honey liquid or how to reliquify, he asked about crystalizing in the jar and in comb.

Thank you for your kind reply MichaBees. Maybe you got up too early?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> It seems that crystallization of honey occurs faster in the jar than it does in the comb. Is that my imagination?


It could be. What have you observed?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Or are you saying some cells in the comb crystallized next to others that I did not see and then they became seed crystals for the honey in the jars?


Yes. True.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

MichaBees said:


> Thanks Mark, I went back and found your recommendations about keeping honey liquid, by using the microwave for 1 to 2 minutes.


I really wrote that you can KEEP honey liquid by using a microwave oven? I don't think so. You can reliquify crystalized honey by use of a microwave oven, but that won't keep it liquid.

Nothing will keep honey liquid. Eventually almost all honeys will become crystalized. Even that which is kept in the freezer. Eventually.

There is a prime temp to promote crystalization. Anything above or below that temp impedes crystalization. Just ask Michael Bush or go to his website for info more palitable.

You could always put your jar of crystalized honey on the corner of your wood stove. Or in a pan of water, set on the burner of your stove top at a low heat setting. Or, just eat it up before it crystalizes.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh yeah, I forgot. And I bet this would work as well in NM as it does here in NY. If you have a windowsill on the south side of your house, set your jar of crystalized honey up against the glass and it will become liquid. You'll have to wait a while, but it works. I have a cpl of cases of 8oz, honeybears and 1lb jars sitting against the glass of my Bay Window right now.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> It could be. What have you observed?


Well there are a lot of assumptions on my part.
When I extracted the honey it wasn't crystallized. I assume most of the honey was about a month old at the very least and some must be older than that. Now that I extracted and have moved honey from one jar to another (we started making hard cider and soon to attempt mead) I can see some crystallization on the sides of the jars. So that says to me that crystallization occurs faster in jars than it does in the comb. I agree, not scientific because I have no real proof that crystallization was not starting in the cells of aster honey for instance.
This years honey is much darker than last years honey. Last years honey was nearly a year old before we extracted. That is another thing that supports my hunch.

Is there something in the air? Has anybody ever put a layer of wax over their jars like you would jam and noticed different results? Maybe there is a "perceived" market for that.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I have always assumed that extracted honey crystallized faster than honey in the comb because of small wax particles that get infused by the extractor and are too small to get caught by my double strainer. My honey that I extract about August 1 will be well on its way to a crystallized state by about now, November 1 if left to our normal temperatures. I have cut comb honey that I had left over the next June and it appeared to be completely liquid.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I can see some crystallization on the sides of the jars.
> 
> Is there something in the air? Has anybody ever put a layer of wax over their jars like you would jam and noticed different results? Maybe there is a "perceived" market for that.


I bet what you are seeing on the sides of the jar is wax, not crystalized honey. Crystalization usually starts at the bottom of the jar.

A layer of wax isn't necassary, so I don't think that very many people would see it attractive. Though I am sure there is some small market for just about anything.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beedeetee said:


> My honey that I extract about August 1 will be well on its way to a crystallized state by about now, November 1 if left to our normal temperatures. I have cut comb honey that I had left over the next June and it appeared to be completely liquid.


Doesn't seem like a coincidence does it? I wouldn't be suspect of the wax though it floats. You could just about leave all the cappings in the batch and mix it up so it becomes homogeneous, bottle it and let it float up to the top. Then a quick heat treatment of the top and you should have a thin layer of wax on each jar sealing in the honey.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

At the beginners course I took at the Minnesota Hobby Beekeepers Association in 2009 Gary Reuter said that Crystallization seemed to start shortly after bottling, and that it was best to bottle close to sale time; It was more hassle to decrystallize jars than individual buckets. From the description of his operation it sounds like he has a production line with a sump etc. 
My experience is that I am not having a problem with crystallization. I extract from my Maxant extractor into 5 gallon buckets and then bottle from a 5 gallon bucket, when that batch has been sold I bottle another and so on. I have not seen any crystallization so far, and I have had jars in my cupboard for personal use from August until March. I'm a small operator - I sold about 40 gallons at work this fall in one pound, two pound, and five pond containers.
I wash the extractor thoroughly between runs and the bottling pail about every 10 gallons. I understand that crystallization seems to vary between floral sources, but I am thinking that if avoiding seed crystals is a good preventative for premature crystallization. That would seem to be easier for small operators who can process honey in batches versus larger operators who keep a production line going.


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## tandemrx (Dec 1, 2010)

not sure if this article has been posted before, but i think it is a nice primer on crystallization
View attachment crystallization.pdf


hopefully i got the file to attach


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Then a quick heat treatment of the top and you should have a thin layer of wax on each jar sealing in the honey.


Lots of things you could do, but why would you?

W/out your heating the top of the jar idea, what you describe is pretty much the formula for "Really Raw Honey". It's a wonder there hasn't been any Liability action for some of the stuff in their honey.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Honey removed
> from the comb and processed
> with extractors and pumps is
> likely to crystallize faster then
> ...


There is the answer. Air bubbles and particles propagate crystallization. So all you have to do is filter and draw a vacuum to pull the air out. Got it. I had a feeling about the air.


Liability?:s

For what?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ace, from what I have heard Raw honey. (I don't know the difference in "Really"raw honey) is not processed much . basically removed fromt he comb and bottled. Bee parts and other are acceptable.

I have a thought due to other things I do to get rid of bubbles. Vacuum does nto work as well as you might think. it is more like opening the soda bottle. The gas in the soda does not make bubbles becasue it is under pressure. relase that pressure and the bubbles show up and fizz. putting somethign under a vacuum is sort of the other way to release pressure. the bubbles do not so much get sucked out as they tend to foam.

Vibration as in a sonic jewelry cleaner or other method is a good way to break the bubles up so small you don't see them. PRessure will smash them small enough you do not see them but the pressure has to stay there. heat will casue the bubbles to expand and rise faster.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> ... filter and draw a vacuum to pull the air out.
> 
> Liability?:s
> 
> For what?


How ya gonna do that? Draw a vacuum.

Liability? For all the stuff not normally found in liquid honey. Sometimes there is alot of stuff in honey when it first comes out of the extractor.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> So all you have to do is filter and draw a vacuum to pull the air out.


I let it crystallize. Much easier.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Vacuum does nto work as well as you might think. it is more like opening the soda bottle. The gas in the soda does not make bubbles becasue it is under pressure. relase that pressure and the bubbles show up and fizz. putting somethign under a vacuum is sort of the other way to release pressure. the bubbles do not so much get sucked out as they tend to foam.


I have quite a bit of experience deaerating high viscous hydro gels. Heat, agitation, or vibration will all accelerate the process of removing air but it must be under a vacuum to pull it all out. The extractor, with out a doubt is the culprit that puts most of the air into the honey. If this was a concern for large production it would be beneficial to draw the vacuum while you did the extraction. Indeed that is what I did when I mixed hydro gels in 250 gallon batches. It was the only way I could finish a batch in a 24 hrs period so another batch could be made the next day.

As crude as my extractor is it is much easier to run my extractor under a vacuum having the motor inside the drum. The typical extractor would require a very expensive mechanical seal and bearing arrangement in order to pull a vacuum on the drum.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> How ya gonna do that? Draw a vacuum.


Do you what to know how to do it as a lab tester or full blown production able to keep up with the extraction process?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No. You made a statement and I wanted to know how YOU are going to draw a vacuum on a jar of honey. Not me. You. It's your idea.

I already know it isn't necassary or practical. And I bet it wouldn't effect crystallization.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oooh, now your betting...

My honey is in ball jars but it would make more sense to evacuate the air before you put the honey in jars. At any rate if you buy a typical vacuum sealer that has a port where you can use a hose you can put a fitting in a plastic cap and hook the hose to it. I would start off by using a quart jar and filling it with a pint and a half of honey. Cap it and turn on the vacuum pump. Tip the jar on a angle and slowly rotate the jar 180 back and forth to break the bubbles. An obstacle that floats on the surface would probably help. You have to make sure the honey does not enter the vacuum tube. A safety check in the tube would be a good idea. If you need to upscale use a 5-6 gal carboy. If you want to go commercial PM me or give me a call the requirements would vary depending on your needs.

I think it would slow down crystallization. For anyone that thinks it is important maybe you want to try a jar and report your findings. Be sure to filter the honey first through a 100 mesh because particles could be as much a factor as entrapped air.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Like I said, not practical. And, were it necassary the honey packers would have this as a standard operating procedure. This is just an intellectual exercise. Nothing anyone will do.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> For anyone that thinks it is important


My gut tells me there aren't many who think it is. Crystallization is natural. I don't see it as a negative.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well Mark the honey packers do not care if they loose a small percentage of the market so their practices may involve heat as a solution. Perception is everything in a specialized market so if someone goes the extra mile they might be able to sell against a competitor who doesn't go the extra mile.
You put honey in plastic bears and tell your customers to heat it in the microwave. That tells me who your customers are and that you could care less that you are driving plasticizers into the honey when you do that. I am pretty sure everyone does not think like you.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, I should hope not. Nor I you.

I don't recommend anything to my customers. I may suggest that they b uy my honey, simply by its appearance on the shelf. But, nowhere will you see any recommendations of use or how to liquify. so, I don't know where you are getting that idea from.

And, you are not going to do what you are writing about, are you? Vacuum packing honey, that is.

Were it necassary, it would be a standard practice. Were it practical, it still wouldn't be done, because it isn't necassary. And, it is cost prohibitive.

So, Acebird, when are you going to vacuum pack your honey and market it? Are you going to market it and promote it as a superior bottling method and demand a higher than average pricee to off set the costs? Please make pictures available so we can see how you do this and what the end product looks like.

As far as crystzalization goes. Here is a remedy. Sorta along Barry's point of view. Make creamed honey, using the Bush method. Then, if people feel a need for liquid honey, they can liquify it any way they wish, by applying heat in some preferential manner.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

In fact, in many parts of Europe, liquid honey is not the preferred choice. Creamed honey is.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You put honey in plastic bears and tell your customers to heat it in the microwave. That tells me who your customers are and that you could care less that you are driving plasticizers into the honey when you do that.


This critisism coming from the guy w/ a home extractor made from a nonfood grade plastic barrel w/ the motor inside of it? Misquoting out of context something I wrote on another Thread?

I produce a clean, quality product for my customers. I produce and pack that honey for their consumption. What they do w/ it after they buy it is not my responsibility. If any one of my customers ever asked me how to liquify honey I would describe the various methods I am aware of and let them decide which is the one most practical to them. I would appreciate it if you would not malign my customers by use of your assumptions.

Thank you.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Interesting, very interesting.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> In fact, in many parts of Europe, liquid honey is not the preferred choice. Creamed honey is.


And that takes another process doesn't it? Adding costs for a perceived value. No trouble selling it though is there? It also shows how Europeans think entirely different than Americans. That doesn't shock me.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> No trouble selling it though is there?


It is almost completely unheard of around here. When you do find it... it seems to demand a premium price. I think people would like it... if they knew what it was. 

They don't have it in NY? Thought it was invented (created) there?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Of course we do.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

hpm08161947 said:


> They don't have it in NY? Thought it was invented (created) there?


No, just the R&D!


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Barry said:


> No, just the R&D!


Cornell? I seem to remember a patent, now who was discussing that.... maybe one of the WI guys.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Of course we do.


By chance - do you know the price of a 1 lb container of creamed honey - in your area?


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I had a feeling about the air.


 If ya succeed in getting the air bubbles out it is going to granulate anyway.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

hpm08161947 said:


> By chance - do you know the price of a 1 lb container of creamed honey - in your area?


At the fair it was a dollar more if I remember correctly.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

mac said:


> If ya succeed in getting the air bubbles out it is going to granulate anyway.


Faster than it does in the comb or about the same?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Before going through the time, effort, and cost of vacuuming your honey, you might want to be darn certain that air bubbles ARE the primary cause of cyrstalization. Otherwise it is a waste of time, effort, and money.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I guess than all experimentation is a waste of time, effort and money. According to the PDF seed crystals, particles, and air entrapment is a cause. How much each one contributes is unknown to me. Those interested in wasting their time, effort and money can do as they choose. Last I knew we still have that freedom. There are some very simple things you can do to run a test.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Note sure who Eva Crane is, but the PDF says (without a foot note as to the source of the information): 


> The monohydrate form of glucose can serve as seeds or nuclei which are the essential starting points for the formation of crystals. Other small particles, or even air bubbles, can also serve as seeds for the initiation of crystallization.


I know a little bit about supersaturation and seed crystals (particulate matter) causing macro crystallization. The last sentence of the quote seems pretty weak in it's indictment of air bubbles as the cause and I am having a hard time visualizing how air bubbles can act as seeds. I guess air bubbles are theorectically _a_ cause, but unless you filter the honey (and I do mean _filter_ as opposed to _strain_) the pollon, dust, bees parts, and other hard particulate matter are going to override the effects of air bubbles. Anyway if it were me, I would invest my time in effort into determining if air bubbles really are the culprit before wasting time and money devising a vacuum system. But that's just me........
​


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Faster than it does in the comb or about the same?


The hive and the Honey Bee extensively revised 6th printing 2003 states “ Honey processed with the use of extractors and honey pumps granulates faster than comb honey. Apparently the pump serves to break crystals into smaller “seeds” Dust pollen wax particles small pieces of propolis or air bubbles all work quite well."


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

So if the air bubbles are removed through a vacuum system, how does one keep the smaller "Dust pollen wax particles small pieces of propolis" from starting the cystallaization process?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> There are some very simple things you can do to run a test.


Do it then, and get back to us.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Ace, 

Now is your chance. Take several bottles of blended honey (composit sample from a bottle bucket, so it all has the uniform ingredients and properties). 

Super filter some jars then leave as is
Super filter and then re-aerate some jars
De-aerate some jars w/o filtering
Aerate w/o filtering
Dont foget to leave some jars for control purposes
That is off the top of my head and I am sure other samples could be devised for a well designed experiment. Set all jars in a cupboard and take careful notes as to what happens. Keep track of the *rate of crystal growth *and measure the *total weight *of just the crystals at the end of the experiment. 

After you have proved what is actually causing crystalization, you can then work on a solution to the problem. 

Think about it. You would be a hero to the beekeeping world.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Nabber86 said:


> So if the air bubbles are removed through a vacuum system, how does one keep the smaller "Dust pollen wax particles small pieces of propolis" from starting the cystallaization process?


 Ya cant.Ya cant. Good white Tupelo unmixed with other honey will not granulate. The only one here in the states


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Acebird said:


> It seems that crystallization of honey occurs faster in the jar than it does in the comb. Is that my imagination?


Did we loose track of what this thread was about? It is not about it crystallizing it is about crystallizing *faster* then in the comb and what could be the causes. My curiosity has been satisfied. If someone with further interest wants to perform the test and see for themselves I don't see the harm in that. Pulling a vacuum is not a big deal. You can do it with a wine bottle and an evacuation cork in conjunction with the hand pump.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Did we loose track of what this thread was about? It is not about it crystallizing it is about crystallizing *faster* then in the comb and what could be the causes.


The hive and the Honey Bee extensively revised 6th printing 2003 states “ Honey processed with the use of extractors and honey pumps granulates FASTER than comb honey. Apparently the pump serves to break crystals into smaller “seeds” Dust pollen wax particles small pieces of propolis or air bubbles all work quite well." Guess ya didn't read it the first time. Seems like the research has already been done.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Get with the program Mac, I already acknowledged that. There are those claiming they don't know what effect each contributor has to the whole pie at the same time claiming that air entrapment is a small part. That is not credible in my book.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Ace, 

It doesnt seem "credible" to question the contribution of solid matter over that of air bubbles? Why is that not credible? It's a valid question. :scratch:

I "suspect" that air bubbles may be a minor contributing factor compared to particulate matter. It hasnt been proven one way or the other and I certainly didnt "claim" anything. Is a random quote from a book without a reference any more "credible". I doubt the author(s) performed the experiment, or reviewed the results of experiments by others before making their "claim". 

As soo as you report the results of the experiment, you will have the credibility that you are so sorely lacking.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

For what it is worth, I think Mac is right. The original question has been answered (the one about bottled honey crystallizing faster than comb honey). It makes perfect sense as smaller particles act as more effective seeds that larger particles. (Although the author does use the term "_*Apparently*_" which indicates some degree of unkown on the author's part, it could be a complete guess. Maybe and educated guess that makes sense to others, but it certainly doesnt indicate any more that that). Anyway, that's not the part of the quote that I have questions about. 



> The hive and the Honey Bee extensively revised 6th printing 2003 states “ Honey processed with the use of extractors and honey pumps granulates FASTER than comb honey. _*Apparently*_ the pump serves to break crystals into smaller “seeds” Dust pollen wax particles small pieces of propolis or air bubbles all work quite well." Guess ya didn't read it the first time. Seems like the research has already been done.


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## the kid (Nov 26, 2006)

to keep comb honey from granulating you put it in a freezer and it maintains liquid. same honey, just tempeture difference.to keep comb honey from granulating you put it in a freezer and it maintains liquid. same honey, just tempeture difference.

I think this one is wrong .. tempeture difference does matter ,, if its refrigerated you will get crystallization a lot faster ,, so as long as it is in the freezer you my be ok , but as soon as its talen out you may have crystallization start with in a week


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

True. Crystals typically form from supersaturated solutions. One way to reach a supersaturated state is to saturate a solution at a high temperature and then cool it (solubility is directly proportional to temperature). Putting a jar of honey in the fridge would accomplish this nicely. I beleive a slow cooling grows bigger crystals than crash cooling and I am not sure if putting a jar of honey in the freezer would grow more or less (or bigger or smaller) crystals than putting itin the fridge. 

Maybe that contributes to why honey crystalizers faster in the bottle than in the comb (aside from particular matter or possibly air bubbles). Comb in the hive is stored under more stable temperature conditions.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

the kid said:


> but as soon as its talen out you may have crystallization start with in a week


The temperature varies all over the place in the hive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> There are some very simple things you can do to run a test.


Then do them and let us know what you find out.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nabber86 said:


> Note sure who Eva Crane is, but the PDF says (without a foot note as to the source of the information):


Dr. Eva Crane was, before her death, a World Renowned beekeeping acedemician, contemporery of the likes of Dr. Roger Morse, Dr. Walter Rothenbueler and others. She was a leading figure in the IBRA, International Bee Research Association. She wrote a number of Bee Related Books and was instrumental in the production of a book cataloging all known bee books from before 1976.


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## the kid (Nov 26, 2006)

One thing ,,It does not matter to me how fast I get crystallization in my honey ,,, because I seed mine , crystallized is the way I want my honey ,, for me the faster the better .. but that's just my thoughts ..I could not tell you why I like it crystallized ,, but I have always liked it that way .. I know I'm weird , but that makes life more fun ... want to join the weird guy in some crystallized honey ??????


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nabber86 said:


> As soon as you report the results of the experiment, you will have the credibility that you are so sorely lacking.


I will bet a dollar that Acebird won't be doing the "expirement" and neither will anybody else. There is not enuf reason to.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Here we go betting again. Make it a grand Mark and we will satisfy your curiosity.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm not going to pay you to do what you brought up as an idea which is unuseful and expensive and un-necassary. But I'll wager a small sum that you won't do it, so, I don't know why you brought it up.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Granulation-Label-500/productinfo/640/


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Gee, that sticker should have been slapped on here 6 pages ago! :applause:


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

And over in Europe the prefer honey that is Crystallized. Makes a real nice spread. TED


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

...And if you watch the skep beekeeping videos, they use it as bee feed.


Shoot, now I'm going to be subscribed to this thread. :scratch:


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I almost laughed when I read this thread. Please do a search on sugar crystallization and find out what the true culprit is. 
DarJones


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry, what about those that don't want their honey heated?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

They'll either have to eat their liquid honey quickly or eat crystalized honey.

How do people use honey w/out heating it when eating it? Peanut butter sandwiches? If you use it in cooking, you heat it. Maybe there are alot of people out there eating spoonsful out of jars. What percentage of consumption is as a sweetener in hot drinks like tea and coffee?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

We use it in everything but I did try to smooth out some organic peanut butter by mixing it in and it did the opposite. I should have molded it in a cake so I could use a cheese cutter to make a slice. It took about a week to go from smooth to a cake in the jar. The oil didn't separate though.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Nabber86 said:


> Anyway, that's not the part of the quote that I have questions about.


 What are the questions??? If ya really care about this subject The hive and the Honey Bee extensively revised 6th printing 2003 pages 690,691 will explain the whole granulation process from temperature, glucose content, and particulate matter to freezing. The wheel has already been invented. Check it out. Oh heck I keep feeding the pigeons.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

What do you have against heating it? I guess if one is set against heating it, then you use it in the crystallized state. It tastes no different. Nice thing about crystallized honey is, it doesn't run/drip off. Outside of eating it on bread/baked goods, it gets heated in all other applications.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

mac said:


> What are the questions??? If ya really care about this subject The hive and the Honey Bee extensively revised 6th printing 2003 pages 690,691 will explain the whole granulation process from temperature, glucose content, and particulate matter to freezing. The wheel has already been invented. Check it out. Oh heck I keep feeding the pigeons.


I wasnt questioning that fact that honey forms crystals, or how the crystals are formed. 

The question was: _How much does entained air (bubbles) contribute to crystal seeding over particulate matter? _ The reason I was asking the question was that it was suggested that putting a layer of wax on top of the honey in the bottle to keep the air out and prevent crystallization (see posts 14 and 17).

Then post #21:


> There is the answer. Air bubbles and particles propagate crystallization. So all you have to do is filter and draw a vacuum to pull the air out. Got it. I had a feeling about the air.


Finally in post #25, a rather complicated method is presented in order to remove air bubbles (by applying a vacuum and other physical means) and prevent honey crystalization. (Note that the filtering part is dropped at this point and the emphases is on removing air bubbles by vacuum only.)

------------------

So before going to that level of effort to prevent honey crystalization (remove air bubbles by vacuum), I ask the question again, _How much does entained air (bubbles) contribute to crystal seeding over particulate matter?
_


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## Thermwood (May 29, 2010)

Temperature may play a role also, We had a discussion about this a year ago. 57 degrees F is the temp that encourages the fastest granulation. Temps lower or higher slow it down. One retailer we provide honey to keeps their room temp in the hi 50s/ low 60s most of the fall/winter/spring. Their honey is always the first to granulate.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> (Note that the filtering part is dropped at this point and the emphases is on removing air bubbles by vacuum only.)
> 
> [/I]


If it has been dropped it was dropped by you. You still have to filter it, now to what degree? People posts that the wheel has already been invented. Wellllllll, lets have it. Who has the book, look it up and paste the info in here I would like to see the data.

Barry, the purest feel that heat breaks down certain enzymes that are beneficial. I am not sure what gets broken down and at what temperature. I believe the whole point of raw honey is it has not been heated, kinda like raw milk. Maybe for the same thing.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

> If it has been dropped it was dropped by you. You still have to filter it, now to what degree? People posts that the wheel has already been invented. Wellllllll, lets have it. Who has the book, look it up and paste the info in here I would like to see the data.


That's the problem. Nobody has the book (or at least presented it here). 

My only point is - if preventing crystal formation in honey if important to you, then it's probably not a bad idea to figure out what the major cause is. Whether it be particulates, air bubbles, temperature, pressure, or current phase of the moon. Once you know what the primary culprit is, you can devise a way to deal with it. If bubbles are the main factor, vacuum it. If particutes, then filter it. If both, then do both. Why create extra work where it may not be needed? Filtering on a micron level is a lot of work (and messy) and as you said above, "to what level?". Even if you have great knowledge and access to vacuum equipment, that is work too and complictes the process. Werent you the one who started a thread a couple of months ago where you told others that beekeeping should be easier and manual labor should be reduced? Why is work in the bottling house any different?

Just trying to help you in your endeavors.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The scale of things...

If you were a backyard beekeeper trying to sell what you believe is the purest honey money can buy you would want to know simple things that benefit your product. If you were Ted, chief of the sioux nation producing millions of pounds of honey for all the poor souls in Alabama you might want to get in on the niche market like Dole has on organic fruits.
Filtering and deaerating honey is a process, not necessarily work but something that has to be considered when packaging a product.

Hey, I just bought another tractor, a Ford 861 with a six foot bucket loader on it. Got it home safely and thirty minutes later the front tire on the trailer blows off the rim. It pays to go to church. Amen.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Filtering and deaerating honey is a process, not necessarily work but something that has to be considered when packaging a product.
> 
> the trailer blows off the rim. It pays to go to church. Amen.


I don't believe that any Packers of size spend any money on "deaerating". But, they may do things to keep air bubbles from forming to begin w/.

Why? Is Church where you do your vehicle maintenence? Check you tires more rewgularly and keep them filled to proper pressure and stop overloading the trailer.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

After seeing the Dadant uncapper internals, thanks to the VP, there is no way to avoid entrapped air in this process. The extraction process will contribute more. Unless you are going to use a drip method like I did the first year you will probably have entrapped air in the honey. I think I mentioned that last years honey took almost a year to show signs of crystallization. Must be the particles were missing.

No Mark, church is where I tell the almighty I am not worthy but please look out for me.
I ha dent planned on buying this tractor but you know how it goes it is hard to pass up a good deal. The trailer was a 400 dollar Hudson trailer that I brought back to life. The tires were not so good. When you start out in a business it is a good idea not to spend more than you take in. Things go smoother that way.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Maybe you should have built it yourself, like your ex tractor.

Particles? Which particles? I thought you were promoiting air bubbles as the crystalizing culprit.

Maybe there was more early honey, such as basswood and locust, than there was late honey, such as goldenrod and aster. Some honeys crystallize sooner than others. Those would be the later honeys in your area.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Actually Ace, I am descended from the Cherokee with many ancestors on the Dawes rolls. The Sioux honey cooperative does a good job and does handle around 40 million pounds of US produced honey. The honey is filtered, except the Aunt Sue brand, which is a raw product. Honey packed by Sioux is heated to a certain temperature to prevent crystallization and thus extend shelf life in the store. The honey we produce in our processing plant is stored in stainless steel 1000 gallon dairy tanks before drumming up the product. That way any air bubbles caused by extraction settles out after a few days. TED


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Nabber86 said:


> _How much does entained air (bubbles) contribute to crystal seeding over particulate matter? _
> _How much does entained air (bubbles) contribute to crystal seeding over particulate matter?
> _


 Please read the book. The hive and the Honey Bee extensively revised 6th printing 2003 pages 690,691 will explain the whole granulation process from temperature, glucose content, and particulate matter to air bubbles, freezing. The wheel has already been invented. Anyone who has bottled honey has observed that air bubbles rise to the top after a couple of days and if ya bottle from the bottom of the tank the air bubbles are eliminated. Once in the jar again any bubbles will rise to the top after a couple of days and ya can skim them of the top.Please read the book. Anyone keeping bees should also keep a couple of definitive references then you would also beee a book keeper HA I crack myself up.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Acebird said:


> ..Filtering and deaerating honey is a process, not necessarily work but something that has to be considered when packaging a product.


 Please read the book. The hive and the Honey Bee extensively revised 6th printing 2003 pages 690,691 will explain the whole granulation process from temperature, glucose content, and particulate matter to air bubbles, freezing. The wheel has already been invented. Anyone who has bottled honey has observed that air bubbles rise to the top after a couple of days and if ya bottle from the bottom of the tank the air bubbles are eliminated. Once in the jar again any bubbles will rise to the top after a couple of days and ya can skim them of the top.Please read the book. Anyone keeping bees should also keep a couple of definitive references then you would also beee a book keeper HA I crack myself up.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Nabber86 said:


> That's the problem. Nobody has the book (or at least presented it here).


 Please read the book. THE HIVE AND THE HONEY BEE extensively revised 6th printing 2003 pages 690,691 will explain the whole granulation process from temperature, glucose content, and particulate matter to air bubbles, freezing. The wheel has already been invented. Anyone who has bottled honey has observed that air bubbles rise to the top after a couple of days and if ya bottle from the bottom of the tank the air bubbles are eliminated. Once in the jar again any bubbles will rise to the top after a couple of days and ya can skim them of the top.Please read the book. Anyone keeping bees should also keep a couple of definitive references then you would also beee a book keeper HA I crack myself up. I HAVE THE BOOK AND A COUPLE OF OTHERS AND I HAVE POSTED IT 5 TIMES YOU 2 CAN BUY THEM FROM ANY BEEKEEPING CATALOG. Peace out my brother :doh:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> That way any air bubbles caused by extraction settles out after a few days. TED


That would only be the visible air bubbles, no different then the ones in the Jarred honey. Deaeration pulls out the ones you can't see. Heating does a bunch of things. first it dissolves the seed crystals that may be in the honey, Second it thins out the honey which will bring air to the top faster and third it also expands the air bubbles making them float faster to the top.

Ted, filtered to what degree? Do you know the mesh that they use and what temperature they bring the honey too? I would also like to know what type of pumps they use. We had to use a Sine pump so as to not break down the viscosity of the gel. They are used a lot in the food industry because of cleanliness and they shear the product the least of all positive displacement pumps.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Acebird said:


> No Mark, church is where I tell the almighty I am not worthy but please look out for me.










Oh never mind.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Acebird said:


> That would only be the visible air bubbles, no different then the ones in the Jarred honey.


 Don't know what you are doing wrong but my jarred honey has no air bubbles.







I just can't stop myself


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You wouldn't want to bet a weeks pay would you? Tap water has air in it but you can't see it.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> Barry, the purest feel that heat breaks down certain enzymes that are beneficial. I am not sure what gets broken down and at what temperature. I believe the whole point of raw honey is it has not been heated, kinda like raw milk. Maybe for the same thing.


The purist's need to get a grip on reality. No one is suggesting excessive heat to liquefy honey. You admit you don't know "at what temperature." Kinda like raw milk? Do the purist's drink raw milk at the temperature it comes out of the cow/goat? No. They get it nice and cold first. How hot do you think the honey is that sits in hives out in the desert of Arizona when it's 115-120 degrees during the day? You can re-liquefy honey at lower temps than that.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You wouldn't want to bet a weeks pay would you?


Sure


Acebird said:


> Tap water has air in it but you can't see it.


 No it has oxygen, the air bubbles rise to the surface and burst. Ya do know the difference don’t ya, between air and oxygen???


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Barry said:


> T Do the purist's drink raw milk at the temperature it comes out of the cow/goat?


 I ain't no purist and I lived a number of years with no refrigeration and yes I did drink goat milk straight from the goat.Try it ya might like it. I do


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

"By analyzing different honeys from different parts of the United States, Dr. Dyce was able to show that most honey samples crystallized soon after extracting, while a few honey samples were highly resistant to crystallization. Dr. Dyce observed that the glucose content of a specific honey was the major factor in the crystallization process of honey."

"Most honeys are supersaturated with glucose and other sugars. As honey is extracted and stored, excess glucose, temporarily suspended in the honey, precipitates out in the form of glucose crystals."

- The Hive and the Honey Bee

Heating honey at high temperatures is what damages the honey and creates HMF (5-hydroxymethylfuraldehyde). Any heating process will create larger crystals to form in the honey, so when the honey crystallizes, I try to sell my customers the honey as is instead of heating it. I'd rather they do that as needed.

Ace, I suggest you, and any other beekeeper starting out, buy _The Hive and the Honey Bee_ as soon as you can.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Are you telling people to read a book? To educate themselves? But then, wouldn't they know something and no longer be experts?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

mac said:


> I did drink goat milk straight from the goat.Try it ya might like it. I do


No thanks. I drank warm milk when I was an infant, but now I like my milk really cold.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> You wouldn't want to bet a weeks pay would you? Tap water has air in it but you can't see it.


That would be disolved as gas, not bubbles.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry;724269Ace said:


> The Hive and the Honey Bee[/I] as soon as you can.


Why didn't you read it? Tell us what it says.



> Any heating process will create larger crystals to form in the honey, so when the honey crystallizes, I try to sell my customers the honey as is instead of heating it. I'd rather they do that as needed.


Didn't you just ask what heating honey does????


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

mac said:


> Sure No it has oxygen, the air bubbles rise to the surface and burst.


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-solubility-water-d_639.html

Sign your check and mail it to Brian Cardinal, 425 Lomond Place, Utica NY 13502.

I never bet when there is a chance I could loose.

Thanks btw, now I can get that tire fixed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And now we know the name behind the moniker Acebird.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I would have given it to you if you asked.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I have.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Stop everything. That link speaks of gasses dissolved in water. NOWHERE does it speak of air dissolved in honey, which is mostly sugars, not water. Is the water even free, or loosely tied to the sugars? 

Do over, this time with the proper reference. 

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If you have I am sorry I missed that request.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Acebird said:


> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-solubility-water-d_639.html
> 
> Sign your check and mail it to Brian Cardinal, 425 Lomond Place, Utica NY 13502.


For one the bet was for air BUBBLES in honey not air in water. For2 since water is a simple covalent compound formed by hydrogen and oxygen there ain’t no air there. I never make a bet I can lose and since I haven’t made a weeks pay in a number of years I can’t send ya a check for a weeks pay if I were to lose. Sorry


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Not to mention that "air" itself cannot physically disolve in any liquid. Only the seperate components (think O2 and N) can disolve. 

Anyway none this has anything to do with honey and is completely irrelevent. It's just another red herring thrown out by Ace which is his typical defense strategy when he gets backed into a corner.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Yes and I all ways rise to the occasion and take the bate go figure?? 2 peas in a pod??? or something


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

http://motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2011/11/supermarkets-sell-fake-honey


> so big companies like Sue Bee process the honey with heating and filtration to keep it from crystallizing in the store. These negatively affect the flavor of honey, so it is rather tragic that honey producers essentially have to degrade the quality of their honey in order to move it off the store shelves.



It is a honey laundering article but read the comments.
Ted, I would still like to know why the honey in the hive crystallizes slower in the hive if it is not entrapped air that speed up the process.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...erican-Stores-Under-Cover-Of-Ultra-Filtration

Mark, it looks like ultra filtration is not so uncommon among the big commercials. Apparently they see a need and absorb the costs. After all they are adding processing cost and selling for less. That is a double whammy.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...erican-Stores-Under-Cover-Of-Ultra-Filtration
> 
> Mark, it looks like ultra filtration is not so uncommon among the big commercials.


I would imagine that after ultrafiltration that tiny wax particles as well as pollen is removed. Pollens presence would make it possible to tell where the honey came from.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

How much do you want to bet that removal of tiny wax particles as well as pollen keeps the ultrafiltration honey from forming crystals?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Mark, it looks like ultra filtration is not so uncommon among the big commercials.


When, before this Post of yours, have YOU ever mentioned ultrafiltration? Do you know anything about the process and why some Packers use the process?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The two reasons stated in the articles were prevention of crystallization and to wipe out tracability by pollen testing. Heating is done to make the filtration easier. The pumps, screens, filters, and possibly heating, will break down the viscosity of the honey and make it more pourable which will speed up packaging. Why do you think they do it?


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

You just stated why they do it.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> The two reasons stated in the articles were prevention of crystallization and to wipe out tracability by pollen testing. Heating is done to make the filtration easier. The pumps, screens, filters, and possibly heating, will break down the viscosity of the honey and make it more pourable which will speed up packaging. Why do you think they do it?


Uh, for the _prevention of crystallization and to wipe out tracability by pollen testing_?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Do you suppose that another reason to ultra filter would be to take out the malto-dextrins which are a bigger molecule, thus meeting the sugar profile of Honey? That way rice syrup might look more like honey.

Crazy Roland


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I suppose that depends on how fine the filter is. Molecular size is pretty darn small.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Mark, it looks like ultra filtration is not so uncommon among the big commercials. Apparently they see a need and absorb the costs. After all they are adding processing cost and selling for less. That is a double whammy.


And you are addressing this to me for what reason?


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

I doubt very much if any US packers or North AMERICAN PACKERS, are ultra filtering any honey,it would be too costly and degrades the product badly


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

before everyone gets wound up on ultra filtration realinze that only huge bottlers can afford the equip like souix bee or dutch gold. the cost is way beyond the average small packer. It is not a big commercial thing. (way beyond your imagination)


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> And you are addressing this to me for what reason?


You implied in this statement:



> Like I said, not practical. And, were it necassary the honey packers would have this as a standard operating procedure.


That honey packers would not evacuate the air out of honey because it adds cost yet they ultrafilter the honey absorbing the costs and it creates an inferior product.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey#Modern_uses

*Ultrafiltered honey *is processed by very fine filtration under high pressure to remove all extraneous solids and pollen grains. The process typically heats honey to 150–170 °F (approx. 65–77 °C) to more easily pass through the fine filter. Ultrafiltered honey is very clear and has a longer shelf life; it crystallizes more slowly because the high temperature breaks down sugar seed crystals, making it preferred by the supermarket trade. 

*Ultrasonicated honey *has been processed by ultrasonication, a nonthermal processing alternative for honey. When honey is exposed to ultrasonication, most of the yeast cells are destroyed. Those cells that survive sonication generally lose their ability to grow, which reduces the rate of honey fermentation substantially. Ultrasonication also eliminates existing crystals and inhibits further crystallization in honey. Ultrasonically aided liquefaction can work at substantially lower temperatures of approximately 95 °F (35 °C) and can reduce liquefaction time to less than 30 seconds.[47]


B]Ultrasonicated honey [/B] another way to slow down crystallization. 150-170 degrees on that ultra filtered honey Ted, no thanks.


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