# Top Bar Designs (The Bar Itself)



## NeilV

This past weekend two friends and I got together and built ourselves a topbar hive each. We used discarded pallets for the wood, and the material costs (excluding nails and screws that I already had) was $16 per hive. However, that figure does not include the bars, which I still need to make. 

Except for the obvious drawback that the combs are harder to extract, just looking at these rather ugly hives gets me anxious for swarm season. I can't help but think that this will be a pleasure to work compared to a Langstroth hive. 

However, I am little unclear on the best design for the bars, and I have these questions:

1. If I recall correctly, the plans we have are for 1 5/8' wide bars. Is that a size of lumber that I could buy off the shelf?

2. How do you design the lower face of the bars where the bees attach the comb? Most that I have seen have a groove with some sort of insert perpendicular to the bar as a guide. However, I have also seen foundationless frames that have a triangle pointing down. Anybody do that with topbars?

Thanks,

Neil


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## dkvello

The grove with a Popsicle stick glued is the easiest to make. The Triangle bars need some fancy work with a table saw and radial arm saw (or band saw), and some good push sticks. Be careful making them, or your friends might start calling you “nubs”. I have made both this winter waiting for swarm season. Apparently the girls sometimes have trouble getting straight comb on the popsicle stick start. As to the width of the bars, a 1 5/8’s works for brood, you might want slightly wider for bars of stores, or thin spacers.

Good Luck!


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## odfrank

>> I can't help but think that this will be a pleasure to work compared to a Langstroth hive.

How so?


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## 6r33n63ck0

Check out this link:

http://beenatural.wordpress.com/top-bar-hives/design/top-bars/


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## Merlinspop

Most plans I saw called for 1 1/4" width for brood bars and 1 1/2" for honey. Some split the difference with 1 3/8" for all. Some say use 1 1/4" everywhere and have spacers handy for the honey area. 1x2s are actually 1 1/2" wide. I don't have a table saw and tried to rip the bars with a band saw. Somehow, they all ended up "close" to 1 3/8" so that's what I'll go with. 

As for the comb guide, I bought some cove moulding and chopped it in 12" lengths and used a brad gun to affix to the bars. 

Bruce


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## SteveBee

Try this: http://lyonsvillefletcher.blogspot.com/2009/03/top-bar-pictorial.html

Someone sent me this link. I got untreated scrap 2X material from building sites. 2X8 or 2X10 worked best for me. I made a couple hundred on a Saturday.


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## Pink Cow

I've not used them myself, but from what I've read and heard it would be tough to beat the style SteveBee referenced. We are using *this style* (photo by Cacklewack in *this thread*)and have had very good luck with them. If you own or have access to a router and table, I believe this is the easiest style to make as it's just two runs down the fence and a quick trim of the ends either with saw or router. The ridge on ours is 1/8" wide and 1/4" high, and we waxed them before installing.

As far as width, I think 1 5/8" is too thick. We currently have all 1 3/8" bars but did find that the bees want to make the honey combs thicker so this spring we'll install spacers to make the bars outside of the brood area 1 1/2" apart or so.


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## NeilV

OD,

Two basic reasons:

1. No box lifting.

2. Taking off the lid does not really open the hive from the bees' perspective. The bars are solid across the top. So removing one frame at a time will not disturb the bees to the same degree as removing the top and boxes on a Lang.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not getting rid of my Lang hives. But this could be a fun way to keep bees and a good way to produce some comb honey, which I've been meaning to do anyway.

I had my 7 year old help put the hive together, and I also think this would be a good way to involve young kids in beekeeping -- they can help build it, they don't have to lift anything too heavy and the bees are less likely to get hot when working a hive.


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## NeilV

I have a router table (which I barely know how to use) but no table saw. I do have a 12" radial arm saw, a band saw and a scroll saw. So if I could make it work with those tools, that would be great. 

(I bought the contents of a shop from the guy who owned this house previously, and I've been teaching myself to use power tools. Still have all my fingers so far. Sure would like to own a table saw, but I don't know where I'd put it). 

Is there a particular router blade that you use?

Could I use a router blade of some type to cut a groove in the top bar if I go that route? (And is there a description of the blade I need if I go to a woodworking shop?)

Thanks,

Neil


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## odfrank

NeilV said:


> OD
> 1. No box lifting.
> Less honey to lift, less production
> 
> 2. Taking off the lid does not really open the hive from the bees' perspective.
> Millions of langs are opened with no major detriment.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I'm not getting rid of my Lang hives.
> Good
> But this could be a fun way to keep bees and a good way to produce some comb honey, which I've been meaning to do anyway.
> Good
> 
> the bees are less likely to get hot when working a hive.


Some bees are hot without opening the hives. Doubt the TBH makes much difference.


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## Pink Cow

NeilV said:


> Is there a particular router blade that you use?


Neil, I use what is commonly called a straight bit (not blade ). You could also use a mortising bit as it basically makes the same type of cut, just wider. I made all bars 1 3/8" wide, and if I remember correctly (not a given, by the way) I used a 9/16" bit to take off each side. If you subtract 1/8" from the width of your bars, then divide the rest in half, that's the cut you'll need to make. If your bit is wider, just adjust the fence to take off less on each pass.



> Could I use a router blade of some type to cut a groove in the top bar if I go that route?


Yep. I with a 1/8" straight bit and your table that would be no problem. It's quicker to do it the other way though, since you don't have to deal with gluing the sticks and all.


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## Beethinking

Here's how we do the top bars that we sell: 



















They are one piece with a wedge. However, we have a mill that produces these on a CNC machine. 

The easiest option, though not the prettiest, is generally to get 3/4"-1" boards and rip them down to 1 1/4"-1 3/8" widths (depending on your preference), chop them to the right length and then cut a kerf down the center. Then put in a popsicle or some other sort of stick as a guide.

Best,
Matt


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## Michael Bush

Bars should be between 1 1/4" and 1 1/2". I find the 1 1/4" works best in brood and 1 1/2" in honey storage. But 1 3/8" is what most people seem to use.

Discussion of spacing of combs:
http://bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm

Top bar hives:
http://bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm


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## mmiller

My experience is exactly the same a Michael Bush's. I started using all 1 3/8" bars and the bees were ok in the brood area but built the honey comb too wide. Now I use all 1 1/4" bars and use 1/4" spacers between the bars in the honey area which in effect gives me 1 1/2" honey bar spacing.

I also cut a groove down the middle of my top bars and use popsicle sticks glued in. As Cacklewack points out, they aren't the prettiest but once the comb is on them who cares. This has turned out the be the most cost effective way to get a good starter strip for the bees for me.

Mike


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## Zonker

I like the top bars that are V shaped along the bottom. Easy to make with no routing, gluing, etc. and the bees seem to follow them well.


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## Zonker

(I just figured out how to attach a drawing) so ...

Don't have router or table saw so I make mine with just a circular saw. I set it to 45 degress, make a couple of rip cuts, cut to length, a little chisel work and voi-la. A scrap 2 x whatever will make a bunch of them.


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## tommyt

You guy's who want the V of wood, Can buy molding and tack it on the topbar molding is cheap


Tommyt


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## Bush_84

You would have to be very good at making that cut. If it's off would that may crooked comb?


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## Michael Bush

Comb is never perfectly straight. If it's on the bar, that's good. If it spans the next bar, it's not good.


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## NeilV

If you cut the wedge shape into the bar, do you also need to paint wax on there to get them started?


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## mmiller

tommyt said:


> You guy's who want the V of wood, Can buy molding and tack it on the topbar molding is cheap
> 
> 
> Tommyt


This is how I started. It works really well but I wouldn't call it cheap. In my area these triangle moulding are about $7 each. That's about $1 per bar. For me that is too much money. You are adding over $30 per hive just to add a triangle. That is the same reason I won't buy pre-made bars....just too expensive. I guess not too bad if you have 1 or 2 hives but it starts adding up real fast if you increase your hive numbers. You can make your top bars yourself for 15-20 cents apiece If you have a table saw. I cut the kerf down the middle of my 1 1/4" bar and glue popsicle sticks. They may not be as pretty as the triangle bars but they work just as well.

Mike


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## Merlinspop

When I bought materials for mine, pine cove moulding was something like $0.15/ft. Cheap enough for me.


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## tommyt

The molding I talk of is not triangle its an inverted* C* and the opposite side (the 90% that should be used on the wall) this is *L* I use that as the V for the top bar, as was stated about 15cents a foot.
I'll get a picture it will be better than I can explain

Tommyt

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i319/tommytt1/Molding.jpg


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## jmgi

Yeah, I think they are called chamfer moulding at the lumber store, they are cut on 45 degrees and are not costly, this is what I use, its quick. Making your own is fine too and cheaper. I also paint on some liquid beeswax on the V moulding, but its not necessary. John


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## Zonker

I like the attaching idea. Seems like you could cut a bunch of chanfer molding off the edge of any board. and .... I used the V shaped bars without waxing ahead of time (was a newbee and didn't have any wax) and the bees cooperated.


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## outofabluesky

I made some videos on how to make easy Top Bars.
Don't do it the hard way.

part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnLpk5hM8SM
part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f8A_6N96CE


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## Merlinspop

outofabluesky said:


> I made some videos on how to make easy Top Bars.
> Don't do it the hard way.


I might have tried your way of melting beeswax on a string, but just starting out I had no beeswax and I didn't have a clean soldering iron to use/sacrifice.

I found it super easy to take cove moulding, chop it into 12" pieces, and use an air nailer to drive in crossed brads to secure. More expensive this way for sure, but any excuse I can find to use that nailer.... I'll take!

B


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## JakeDatc

odfrank said:


> Originally Posted by NeilV View Post
> OD
> 1. No box lifting.
> *Less honey to lift, less production*
> 
> 2. Taking off the lid does not really open the hive from the bees' perspective.
> *Millions of langs are opened with no major detriment.*
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I'm not getting rid of my Lang hives.
> *Good*
> But this could be a fun way to keep bees and a good way to produce some comb honey, which I've been meaning to do anyway.
> *Good*
> 
> the bees are less likely to get hot when working a hive.



OD you do know that production isn't everyone's reason for keeping bees.... you seem pretty anti top bar without having any experience with them.


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## trentfysty

I make my own bars with the wedge on the bottom. I too started with the 1 3/8 bars and found it much easier to make them all 1 1/4 and add a 1/4" spacer when needed. I use a table saw to make mine. I buy 2x12 douglas fir at the home improvement center. It takes 20 bars to fill my hives and one 8ft 2x12 will make about 30 bars. I cut the 2x12 to 17 inch lengths on my mitre saw then I put 7/8" dados on each end of the 17" lengths. This allows for a nice notch for the topbar to rest on the lip of the hive. I then cut the 17" 2x12 into 1 1/4" strips. Once all the strips are cut I tilt the table saw blade to 45 degrees and run each bar through twice to the the wedge on the bottom. I just a push stick and the table saw fench. Once each wedge is cut I go back and cut about 1/4 inch off the top of each bar just to thin out the bar and make a nice even top. From there I use my router table and a 3/4" straight bit and put a notch in each long side of the bar. That way when the bars are all place together there are "vents" for air flow. The bees open and close them with propolis as needed. I use a quilt similar to a Warre hive on my TBH and it seems to work really well. 

Hopefully that helps. I will see if I have some pictures I can post as well.


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## mobychev

Here is a simple jig i made to cut triangle starters on a band saw
Just to put in my 1cents worth, my favourite is the triangle strip, as i found that is the strongest attachment, and i have tried grooves and string ,
cheers
Graham


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## LauraJS

In dragging out all my old lang, beekeeping equipment I found about 50 plastic frames for the 5 inch supers. I am going to replace them with wooden frames and wax. 

But I am considering keeping those plastic things and cutting them down into top bar hive frames then customizing some elongated top bar boxes around them. 

Does anyone see any problems with this idea? I just thought it might be a way to use up those junky plastic frames and try the top bar method.:scratch:


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## buckbee

By definition, if you are using frames then you are not running a top bar hive - I don't care what they are made from.

A top bar hive uses top bars. A frame hive uses frames. You don't run a petrol engine on diesel.


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## locoskip

hi 
keeping all your fingers when working with power tools is a really good thing .
I tried several styles of top bars and what worked best for me . was 1x1x3/8 in bar with a saw kirf about 1/4" deep down the center . I then cut up 2" strips by the length of the bar of unwired foundation. and "glued" it in place with bees wax. It was fast in the shop and resulted in strait comb. all the other option i tried. resulted in cross combing. I have been told that was due to lack of management on my part and not spacing the bars further apart as the bees started to build concave com. 
best of luck and carefull with the fingers.
mike


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