# New to bees



## jspald1 (Jan 13, 2018)

I’m just getting into bees and am trying to get as much knowledge as I can from books and this forum. I am planning on starting with 2 hives containing 2 deeps each because of my location in northern Michigan and eventually getting 1 super each depending on the flow. The dilemma I am in is that I want to use small cell foundations and cannot find a company that sells the kits with the small cells. I do not want to have to purchase another set of frames and foundations and trash the ones that comes with the kits. If anyone has any opinion on this subject I am willing to learn. Thank.


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## MichiganMike (Mar 25, 2014)

Mann Lake has small cell foundation and small cell frames as well.

Also as I mentioned in your other post, use the search feature, if you type in small cell you will get several pages of posts that discuss small cell.


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## jspald1 (Jan 13, 2018)

Thanks for the info. I did read somewhere that man lake makes the PF-120 and PF-100 plastic 4.9 frames I just forgot about it. In other posts what I have read was people have put packages in with the 4.9 plastic PF-100 with no problem. What is your theory on the 4.9 vs the standard cell? I have heard of several people using the small instead of the standard to keep the mites at bay. Thoughts? Thanks.


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## MichiganMike (Mar 25, 2014)

Although there may be some small impact on mite pressure with small cell foundation it is my belief that on a long list of things for a new beekeeper to consider small cell would be at the bottom. I must admit however that if you search for my earlest post you will see I had the same thoughts as you before I began the journey and asked the same question. I am pleased to see you are aware of the issue of mites. I do not regret my decision to forgo small cell foundation.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Mich mike has some good advice. Learn how to keep bees alive on large cell, treat if necessary, get your hive counts up and then start playing with regressing cell size. I followed several beeks on their small cell journeys and it’s not all peaches and cream.


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## jspald1 (Jan 13, 2018)

Thanks for all of the advice. If I am starting out with empty hives that I am purchasing from Valley Bee Supply with no frames or foundation and I am going to get the type of frame and foundation that I want which would you suggest since this is a brand new hive not even started yet? is the regression still a problem if they have nothing to compare it to? I understand that if they are already building on large cell and then you regress to small cell it is challenging but I m unsure if it is a new hive. I have read numerous articles about there is no scientific evidence that small cell reduces the mite problem but in my opinion if that what they do in the wild then why mess with it plus you have more brood = more workers. Also whats the opinion on the plastic frames like mann lakes pf-100 4.9 if I were to go that route?


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

The kits aren’t much cheaper. I’d decide what you want and buy by the piece. Tops and bottoms are very easy to make if you want to save money. I don’t like the telescoping tops with inner covers. I have one I don’t use. More things to wax up. More places for beetles to hide.

Order bees soon. They run out early. Local bees if you can find some.

Swarm traps are fun.


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## Susieb (Jun 11, 2017)

jspald1 said:


> Thanks for all of the advice. If I am starting out with empty hives that I am purchasing from Valley Bee Supply with no frames or foundation and I am going to get the type of frame and foundation that I want which would you suggest since this is a brand new hive not even started yet? i*s the regression still a problem if they have nothing to compare it to? I understand that if they are already building on large cell and then you regress to small cell it is challenging but I m unsure if it is a new hive.* I have read numerous articles about there is no scientific evidence that small cell reduces the mite problem but in my opinion if that what they do in the wild then why mess with it plus you have more brood = more workers. Also whats the opinion on the plastic frames like mann lakes pf-100 4.9 if I were to go that route?


They have been in hives already, they were already building whatever was in the hive they were in. These are not brand new hatched bees that have never seen foundation, they are just new to you. They might be young bees, but they have still been in a hive before.


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## Hive5ive (Nov 21, 2015)

Hello and good luck with your new bees.
I started out with kits. In my opinion I messed up. I went from 10 frame deeps to eight frame mediums with screened bottom boards in the following year with 4.9mm foundation and foundationless. I also don't care for telescoping covers unless you also want to keep hive beatles and ants. 
Think about box weight when designing your hives too.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

jspald1 said:


> Thanks for all of the advice. If I am starting out with empty hives that I am purchasing from Valley Bee Supply with no frames or foundation and I am going to get the type of frame and foundation that I want which would you suggest since this is a brand new hive not even started yet? is the regression still a problem if they have nothing to compare it to? I understand that if they are already building on large cell and then you regress to small cell it is challenging but I m unsure if it is a new hive. I have read numerous articles about there is no scientific evidence that small cell reduces the mite problem but in my opinion if that what they do in the wild then why mess with it plus you have more brood = more workers. Also whats the opinion on the plastic frames like mann lakes pf-100 4.9 if I were to go that route?


So jspald1, how did it work? what did you end up using and where are you at appx a year later?

GG


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There isn't much in any of the "kits" that I would even buy... 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesoptions.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnewbees.htm


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> There isn't much in any of the "kits" that I would even buy...


+1


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

jspald1 said:


> Thanks for all of the advice. If I am starting out with empty hives that I am purchasing from Valley Bee Supply with no frames or foundation and I am going to get the type of frame and foundation that I want which would you suggest since this is a brand new hive not even started yet? is the regression still a problem if they have nothing to compare it to? I understand that if they are already building on large cell and then you regress to small cell it is challenging but I m unsure if it is a new hive. I have read numerous articles about there is no scientific evidence that small cell reduces the mite problem but in my opinion if that what they do in the wild then why mess with it plus you have more brood = more workers. Also whats the opinion on the plastic frames like mann lakes pf-100 4.9 if I were to go that route?


If you are starting with no drawn comb like a lot of us do, make sure you can feed them with 1:1 sugar syrup. In your area, they have to be well built up before Winter.
Don't worry about small cell. It doesn't work. make sure you test for Varroa and have an integrated pest management program. Drone trapping is a good way to start but you have to keep at it.
I would start with wood frames and snap in plastic foundation. It's a lot easier to get the comb to go straight. If you want to go foundationless at some point, checkerboard foundationless frames with drawn comb next year. Most of my foundationless turned into drone comb, so I am going to convert them to drone traps. (BTW, if you go foundationless, they won't build small cells)
If you are just starting out, buying nucs is a good way to go as you already have some brood and drawn comb.
Not necessary but recommended that you start with 2 hives so you can compare.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Don't worry about small cell. It doesn't work.

Let's assume for the moment that it doesn't help with Varroa, which is not what i have experienced nor what these studies say:
http://www.apidologie.org/index.php...29&url=/articles/apido/pdf/2002/01/Martin.pdf
http://funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...survival-of-a-commercial-beekeeper-in-norway/
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/trial-of-honeysupercell-small-cell-combs/
https://beesource.com/point-of-view...itic-mite-infestations-in-honey-bee-colonies/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304380001004409
https://link.springer.com/article/1...9aWvRQWlImQcfRifvq1XzsHHytlZspO5f_z5B1l8IrKLg

But even if it doesn't help with varroa, you get longer lived bees:
http://medycynawet.edu.pl/images/stories/pdf/pdf2014/122014/201412777780.pdf

You get more cells for the same size brood nest allowing them to build up more quickly in the spring and more brood in the brood nest. 

Deep frame of 5.4mm foundation 7000 cells
Deep frame of 4.9mm foundation 8400 cells
Medium frame of 5.4mm foundation 4620 cells
Medium frame of 4.9mm foundation 5544 cells

What is the downside?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Michael Bush said:


> >Don't worry about small cell. It doesn't work.
> 
> Let's assume for the moment that it doesn't help with Varroa, which is not what i have experienced nor what these studies say:
> http://www.apidologie.org/index.php...29&url=/articles/apido/pdf/2002/01/Martin.pdf
> ...


Hi Michael, What source do you like/use for foundation? I am thinking of converting to 5.1 first then in a year or 2 to 4.9. First step use current comb for honey supers, second step use the 5.1 for honey supers to gain some use from the drawn comb.
thanks
GG


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The beekeeping supply world is in such a state of change I don't know what's out there anymore. Dadant used to make all of the small cell wax until Kelley started making it. Dadant had an intermediate size (I think it was 5.0 but maybe 5.1mm). i have better luck regressing them on the plastic PF100 (deeps) or PF120 (mediums) one piece foundation/frame from Mann Lake. The bees usually build it the size it's laid out on the first try. If you don't like plastic then you could use the wax or just do foundationless.


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## DrakeFrst (Dec 18, 2019)

Michael Bush said:


> >Don't worry about small cell. It doesn't work.
> 
> Let's assume for the moment that it doesn't help with Varroa, which is not what i have experienced nor what these studies say:
> http://www.apidologie.org/index.php...29&url=/articles/apido/pdf/2002/01/Martin.pdf
> ...


Super insightful, ty for the source of the studies. Was very interesting to read even though i'm farily new as well and only starting and living in a place with super limited beekeping supplies so it's a challenge too but i'm very enjoying it!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

DrakeFrst said:


> Super insightful, ty for the source of the studies. Was very interesting to read even though i'm farily new as well and only starting and living in a place with super limited beekeping supplies so it's a challenge too but i'm very enjoying it!


Hi DrakeFrst, In Reference to "living in a place with super limited beekeping supplies " Your location Shows NY, IMO with Shipping to almost every door in the USA, you should have access to most every beekeeping supply catalogs products, there is in the USA. Help me to understand the "super Limit, you are enduring. We may then be able to offer better insight or options.

Thanks
GG


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## MikeBalst1 (Dec 19, 2019)

I will join the conversation. I am also a beginner. I plan to start beekeeping in the summer. Interesting to read the following comments.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

MikeBalst1 said:


> I will join the conversation. I am also a beginner. I plan to start beekeeping in the summer. Interesting to read the following comments.


Hi Mike Welcome to the Forum.
Keep in mind a couple things and it will help with the initial digestion of all the data in this and other places.

1- If you ask 5 beekeepers how to do something you will likely get 6 or so opinions. All may work for each them, rarely will all work for all of them.

2- Most of Beekeeping is local. folks in Florida may not feed their bees or need to . folks in Canada may need to feed, or have high winter loss. So your better input is from keepers in the relative same climate as you are in. I do what I do because of where I keep. A local club is a good place to get insight on what works locally, and even for local stock. 

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Mike Welcome to the Forum.
> Keep in mind a couple things and it will help with the initial digestion of all the data in this and other places.
> 
> 1- If you ask 5 beekeepers how to do something you will likely get 6 or so opinions. All may work for each them, rarely will all work for all of them.
> ...


One more quick thing, reading your post. it is better to start in the "Spring" new hives befit from as much time as you can give them to prepare for winter. if you are buying bees, many NUC sources or package sources start taking orders in Feb for spring, Some are sold out by April. I would attempt to figure out where you plan to obtain from, and check them out for when you can order and ask when they typically sell out. Also means you likely need your wooden ware during early winter and assemble and paint if you wish it painted late winter. 
Sorry to comment to my own comment. 
GG


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## roddo27846 (Apr 10, 2017)

I started with eight frame mediums and wouldn't change that due to the reduced weight of the boxes. I have worked with a commercial beek using all deeps and you can easily hurt yourself. 

I started foundationless and wouldn't change that as the bees know better than we do. I have no idea what size cells they build. But for a little wonky comb there have been no problems.

I would advise you to start with a thermal treatment system. I added that in my third year and the bees began to really thrive afterwards.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

roddo27846 said:


> I started with eight frame mediums and wouldn't change that due to the reduced weight of the boxes. I have worked with a commercial beek using all deeps and you can easily hurt yourself.
> 
> I started foundationless and wouldn't change that as the bees know better than we do. I have no idea what size cells they build. But for a little wonky comb there have been no problems.
> 
> I would advise you to start with a thermal treatment system. I added that in my third year and the bees began to really thrive afterwards.


What thermal system do you use and how long do you leave it on?
GG


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## roddo27846 (Apr 10, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> What thermal system do you use and how long do you leave it on?
> GG


Mighty Mite Killer.
beehivethermalindustries.com

The treatment is 2 1/2 hours. Warm-up takes about 20-30 minutes, so about three hours. You have to be there to put it on and then to take it off. The rest of the time you can do something else. I usually mow or go out to lunch. But my bees are happy and thriving. Nine colonies. No losses.
Call Lynn Williams, the inventor, and he'll lead you through it. (803) 504-9313.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Although it is not on my "to buy" list, both liveoak and robbin use the MMK and have reported excellent results. You can search their posts to find more information.


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## roddo27846 (Apr 10, 2017)

There is a Facebook Group and there is an article in the January Edition of the American Bee Journal about it.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

roddo27846 said:


> Mighty Mite Killer.
> beehivethermalindustries.com
> 
> The treatment is 2 1/2 hours. Warm-up takes about 20-30 minutes, so about three hours. You have to be there to put it on and then to take it off. The rest of the time you can do something else. I usually mow or go out to lunch. But my bees are happy and thriving. Nine colonies. No losses.
> Call Lynn Williams, the inventor, and he'll lead you through it. (803) 504-9313.


Interesting, thanks
GG


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Second the thanks! Had seen mentions of thermal treatment before but had not 
pursued it further because I thought it was still in development. See now it 
is a commercial product that has been on the market for three years. 

Other than price, seems like the ideal back up 'treatment' for new beeks who 
aspire to be treatment free. 100% chemical free is more important to me than 100%TF.

Working my way through a bunch of old threads which is answering most of my 
questions. Notice thermal is not listed in the rules of the treatment 
free sub-forum. Over site or just too new? Did find a thread that was moved 
out of that forum so pretty obvious it will be forbidden rather than 
allowed.

Hypothetical question: If you can pull a frame of drone comb and put in a 
freezer, return it (with dead drone brood) to the original hive and still be TF. Could you do the same with thermal treatment? Heat rather than cold and most of the drone brood will still be alive. But absolutely nothing is being put back in the hive that was not already there.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Use of the MMK is considered a treatment, as is drone brood removal, powdered sugar shakes, and even brood breaks. How far down the rabbit hole do you wish to go?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> 100% chemical free is more important to me than 100%TF.


Chemical free means using every possible means to control mites while maintaining the purity of the honey and wax you are producing (with a little help from the bees). It is almost a completely different aspect of beekeeping as compared to treatment free.


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## tracyoverstuff (Mar 24, 2020)

I have experienced of an actual beekeeping. It is not a simple thing to keep them and harvest honey. But you can see how amazing these insects are.


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