# varroa/virus?



## dadux (Feb 23, 2012)

I have a hive with a brood problem. Population has dwindled. Reduced to a single deep. Saw a couple bees with K wing. The hive is queen right. I saw her. Pattern is ok on 1 frame. 2 others very spotty. Eggs are being laid back in emerged cells & there is backfilling going on. I did see 2 cells with 3 eggs. Couldn't find any others. Very few sunken caps. Caps look normal color. Maybe 2 dozen perforated & removed caps among 3 frames. Larvae are mostly pearly white. Not swimming in jelly but they are not dry. I saw a couple that were discolored. I'd say tannish. Larvae does not rope. Some are very watery. There are mites. I did not do a wash but I saw several. A couple on comb, 1 on a bee, at least 3 on the dozen carcasses I removed. I did Oxalic Vapor spring & fall last year & Formic during the summer. I fear I may have missed this hive in the fall. I have 14. I do keep notes - but lost track of some. Excuses don't help bees. Of the carcasses I found caramel colored pupae, and grayish watery pupae. They smelled foul but I had to get my nose right on them. About an inch. No scales.

So... Not Chalkbrood. Not Nosema. I thought sacbrood but no twisting larvae, saw 1 discolored larvae, saw 1 possible "sack", saw 1 tracheal "tongue" pointing up. Not EFB because the dead are mostly pupae. The caramel color suggested AFB but no roping & no scales. So I am at a loss to identify the problem which is undoubtedly resulting from varroa/virus. But I would like to positively identify what is going on. And need to if I want to call my self a beekeeper!

What am I missing? What is it?
Don


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Take a peek at Parasitic Mite Syndrome (PMS)

https://beeinformed.org/2013/10/15/parasitic-mite-syndrome-pms/


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I would also be leaning towards PMS ... but why don’t you send a sample to Beltsville and have it tested...for a positive ID?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

If you're seeing varroa on combs or adult bees, you already have a pretty significant problem with them. So treat at once. I'd use OAV as a holding action while you await arrival of some kind of formic acid product. OAV probably won't fix this, and certainly not quickly, but it will knock down the phoretic mites right away, which will help. 

It sounds like PMS to me, too. But PMS looks like snotty brood which, in turn, looks like EFB. So don't ignore that possibility, either, given the season.

You can buy accurate field test kits for EFB (possible because you report some discolored larvae) and AFB (not my first guess, but still.) You get results, on the spot, in minutes. The kits cost about $13 apiece, I'd get more than one for EFB. (In case you screw up the first test attempt, you won't have to wait for another shipment. Don't go overboard, though, because they have a short-ish shelf life.)

Sending a frame to Beltsville is a good idea, too. But it may take longer to get the answers. You can have the test kits in days (order with the MAQS or Formic Pro). Zap 'em with OAV today, because that many phoretic mites will be harming your bees a lot, no matter else might be going on.

Nancy


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

What Nancy said +1. Do 2nd and or third treatment if waiting for something to arrive. 3 mites on 12 dead bees is a 30% infection rate in round numbers.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

PMS. I'd do 5 rounds of OAV. Take a break for a month. Take a varroa sample. Probably OAV another series. The queen would be re-queened with more resistant/ tolerant stock. Cull your worst stock, promote your best.


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## MimbresBees (Sep 22, 2016)

oav won't work if it's as bad as you say it is, thats more like a dirty bandaid on a cleaned cut, been there, myself I'd get the hard guns out, use formic pro asap.


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## dadux (Feb 23, 2012)

So this hive has PMS. That figures. Well I've done a lot of research today as a result of replies to my inquiry. Thank you all.

Here is a culmination of what I have learned.

Parasitic Mite Syndrome (PMS) is a widely observed and yet often misdiagnosed disease. PMS is often confused for American foulbrood (AFB), European foulbrood (EFB), and sacbrood, as this is a disease that directly targets brood. Upon examination of your honey bee colonies’ brood, you observe symptoms that might resemble EFB, AFB and/or Sacbrood disease. However, you are not sure what the problem is, because they are not the characteristic disease symptoms with respect to each disease; there may be a combination of symptoms from all three brood diseases. 
• The colony may or may not be infested with the Varroa and/or Tracheal mites.
• Much is still unknown about PMS, including the causative agent.
• Symptoms are found in cells both before and after capping.
• Brood appears to have multiple diseases e.g. early stages of EFB, AFB and Sacbrood virus.
• No distinctive smell 
• At least 15 honey bee viruses are spread by Varroa mites. The combined effect of these honey bee diseases is known as Parasitic Mite Syndrome.

Larger, better & more photos:

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0004-1.jpg


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

A quote from Beltsville web page:

"Samples received of adult bees and beeswax comb (with and without bee brood) are examined for bacterial, fungal and microsporidian diseases as well as for two species of parasitic mites and other pests associated with honey bees (i.e., small hive beetle, Aethina tumida).

We do not analyze samples (bees, wax comb, pollen, etc.) for the presence of viruses or pesticide residue."

So the only way to get a "possible" diagnosis of PMS would be a high mite load and elimination of other types of disease.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

How old is the hive? What sort of varroa mite management have you done?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I had a few hives in an out yard started from overwintered nucs they seemed to be growing then sort of slowed down found a little spotty brood and thought maybe I should replace the queens on these hives. However a few weeks passed and I started noticing dead and discolored brood but not twisted like EFB maybe similar to PMS but I have been there before and treated a hive for PMS and lost the hive as it just kept dwindling this happened a few years ago. Fortunately I still have some Terrapro so I treated these 3 hives a few times each and they have straightened out their brood pattern and are now growing well ( no thanks to Washington DC ). As there is no way I am going to find or pay for a veterinarian where I am when my Terrapro is gone I will probably have to treat with gasoline.
Johno


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I had a few hives in an out yard started from overwintered nucs they seemed to be growing then sort of slowed down found a little spotty brood and thought maybe I should replace the queens on these hives. However a few weeks passed and I started noticing dead and discolored brood but not twisted like EFB maybe similar to PMS but I have been there before and treated a hive for PMS and lost the hive as it just kept dwindling this happened a few years ago. Fortunately I still have some Terrapro so I treated these 3 hives a few times each and they have straightened out their brood pattern and are now growing well ( no thanks to Washington DC ). As there is no way I am going to find or pay for a veterinarian where I am when my Terrapro is gone I will probably have to treat with gasoline.
Johno


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Johno


> ( no thanks to Washington DC ). As there is no way I am going to find or pay for a veterinarian where I am when my Terrapro is gone I will probably have to treat with gasoline.


I sure agree with you here.
Cheers
gww


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

It looks like EFB or PMS, send a sample to the lab. It is the only way to be 100% sure. The test sticks are not as accurate as the lab; 

You need a piece of comb with dead off colored larva or you can remove the dead off colored larva from the cells and send it in as per instructions for an EFB/AFB test.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=7472

Here's some pictures to compare;

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...d-what-options-(-quot-It-s-complicated-quot-)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Newbie-could-use-advice&p=1293636#post1293636

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?312043-Mite-crash-before-Main-Flow

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?324013-Low-mite-counts-and-PMS-looking-brood


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

I agree likely pms but efb not excluded. This is the time of year for efb. Only way is to send to beltsville, if efb u can use the results to get a vfd


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Did you send a sample to the lab, any results?

How is the hive?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Now let me see, My hives were inspected for a health certificate shortly after I had cleared up this brood thing with Terrapro. Mite levels were a max of 1 mite per 300 bees so do you think PMS was at play at spotty brood and then finding dead and discolored brood but not the twisted larvae common to EFB, Terra pro cleared it up within 10 days and those colonies picked up very quickly. How could Beltsville have helped me, by the time I had a result back from Beltsville and then tried to get a VFD from where ever the malady would have spread my health certificate would be down the tubes and I probably would be a little out of pocket. A big thank you to useless government officials when you hear them say "We only want to hep you " head for the hills.
Johno


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Maybe someday you will be in a position to be thankful for the regulation when you really need Tara Pro and it still works because people were not dumping it into their hives every time they saw a problem. While this regulation may be a pain in the neck, it was formulated to help us. Not any one of us individually but all of us as a whole. J


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Fivej, I somehow doubt that as I am sure my hives and me will be long gone before the system they have created gets to hep any of us. Just remember the road to serfdom is paved with we only want to hep you.
Johno


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I don't know how old you are Johnno but there have been antibiotics developed after I was born that are now mostly in effectual due to overuse. I hope you live long enough to benefit from the regulations to curb overuse of antibiotics for bees and humans. Live long and prosper. J


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Over use or not, there is not enough money in bees for a hobbyist to hire a vet to come and look at his hives and give him a prescription. I just took my dog to the doc (he didn't come to me) and it was $86 bucks. We will see what is better, treating if it might not need it or just not treating cause you can't afford to. 
We will see which cause the most problem.
gww


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

GWW you forgot treating when you need to with or without a vet's prescription and it doesn't work anymore. J


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Fivej
They did not make the rule cause they were afraid that it would not work on the bees. They have been feeding cattle for 50 years and it did not stop working. They stopped it for fear that the antibodies would quit working on people cause people were being exposed through animal products. You act like it is to protect the bees is why it was done. Just like worm medicine for dogs needs a prescription is for the health of the dog and not a money thing. I grew up with animals and can for sure say that I do not take a 5 dollar chicken to a forty dollar vet but have tried to fix their problems when they have them if allowed to. If not allowed to, I have a chance at many more sick chickens. On scale, if I had 100,000 chickens, the cost of a vet would not be much but with 30 chickens, I have the chance of spreading disease or breaking the law to stop it.

I did not forget treating when needed if able to. This change in rules has nothing to do with the antibody not working on european foul brood and such on bees.
Cheers
gww


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

From what I have read, antibiotics have led to resistant foulbrood. Here is one article of many I have seen.
https://americanbeejournal.com/antibiotics-and-the-beekeeper/
In addition, it is generally accepted that antibiotics negatively effect the microbiomes of the bees gut. https://www.popsci.com/antibiotic-overuse-bad-for-bees.
Even if the rulemaking was to protect humans, how is that bad?
BTW, I grew up on a farm and know when to take care of my animals myself, and when to call a vet. J


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

fivej
It is generally accepted that processed sugar might change the microbiomes of the bees gut, perhaps we need a law.

Antibiotics may have been used to keep incidents of AFB symptoms from showing but were never a cure due to the length of time the spores can stay active and so there has never been a change that it worked and then did not work. It did always hide symptoms. The case on EFB is which spores last around 18 months might have some merit but then again, not being able to treat or it being to hard to treat does not cure it either. All these are side notes to the reasons for the change which was human health and those side notes as far as the bee industry, just not treating cause of having to involve a vet may make things worse then possible resistance to the medicine.

When on the farm, how many times did you call a vet to treat a cow with mastitis and how many times did you go to mfa and buy the medicine and treat yourself? 
Just saying
gww


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