# Calling all Alabama beekeepers: No comb law...yes or no?



## sqkcrk

Is this new law or old law? 

Otherwise, how do you know that it was designed to prevent the spread of disease caused by migratory beekeepers moving through the state? I bet that there has never been a varifiable case of disease that can be traced to a migratory load of beehives traveling through a state. Unless you count tose who set down in those states. Which is different than traveling through.

Does Alabama actually not let beekeepers move their colonies into and out of the state of Alabama? If there are any beekeeping operations of size in the state I find that hard to believe. If Alabama is their state of origin, how could they not allow them back in?


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## Tia

I doubt that any of this has much to do with SHB. I haven't purchassed new bees in at least five years and run my bees on foundationless. I'm way out in the boonies, the nearest beek being at least 10 miles away, and yet my girls are slam full of SHB.


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## Paraplegic Racehorse

Similar laws in Alaska have not prevented the spread of disease into/throughout the state. The bees, themselves, are the major carriers of disease spoor. Parasites ride on/in living bees. Virus and other illness are carried in the gut and other parts of bee bodies. As has been shown in several studies, symptoms do not have to be present for the disease to be present. Just as with any other animal.

Stopping the traffic in hive components and comb into or through the state will not impede disease in any way.

Stopping the importation (but not thru-traffic) of used comb _MIGHT_ reduce the rate of pesticide death due to buildup in was. It's unlikely, though, since AL sustains a large amount of agriculture which imports and deploys pesticides directly.


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## fatscher

sqkcrk said:


> Is this new law or old law? Otherwise, how do you know that it was designed to prevent the spread of disease caused by migratory beekeepers moving through the state?
> 
> I bet that there has never been a varifiable case of disease that can be traced to a migratory load of beehives traveling through a state.


I'll call your bet. I believe the same thing. I was told by Dennis Barclift, the state apairist (a very nice gentleman, by the way) that it was designed to prevent the spread of disease caused by migratory beekeepers



sqkcrk said:


> Does Alabama actually not let beekeepers move their colonies into and out of the state of Alabama? If there are any beekeeping operations of size in the state I find that hard to believe. If Alabama is their state of origin, how could they not allow them back in?


Bee-lieve it or not, it's true...oh boy how I wish it weren't. I have 20 hives at the Tennessee border that I can't bring in because of the law. Am I pouting? Yessirree!



Tia said:


> I doubt that any of this has much to do with SHB. I haven't purchassed new bees in at least five years and run my bees on foundationless. I'm way out in the boonies, the nearest beek being at least 10 miles away, and yet my girls are slam full of SHB.


I spoke with Jim Tew at the state meeting, and Jim is of the feeling that this law goes back to the early 1970s, 25 years before any reported cases of SHB, so yes, I think you're right.



Paraplegic Racehorse said:


> Similar laws in Alaska have not prevented the spread of disease into/throughout the state. The bees, themselves, are the major carriers of disease spoor. Parasites ride on/in living bees. Virus and other illness are carried in the gut and other parts of bee bodies. As has been shown in several studies, symptoms do not have to be present for the disease to be present. Just as with any other animal.
> 
> Stopping the traffic in hive components and comb into or through the state will not impede disease in any way.


PREACH ON BROTHER, PREACH ON I tried using this logic and was shot down, the Alabama Farmers Federation State Bee and Honey Committee is a very strong force to reckon with.

Here's the website of Alabama Farmers Federation State Bee and Honey Committee: http://www.alfafarmers.org/commodities/bee_honey.phtml

Goals of the Alabama Bee and Honey Producers for 2010 include:

--Secure research money for honey production, marketing and pollination.
--*Keep no-comb law in effect.* 
--Increase current funding for the existing Alabama A&M University research program into the percent yield increase in lint and seed effect of honeybee cross pollination of BT cotton, and expand the program to include other crops such as soybeans, fruits, vegetables, etc., by other Land Grant universities.
--Work closely with Alabama fruit and vegetables growers to determine the issues that need to be resolved.
--Continue support of anti-dumping suit.
--Support naming queen bee as state insect.

You can write Mr. Adamson, and express your disappointment at this very constraining law.


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## KQ6AR

Its probably an old American Foulbrood Law.


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## fish_stix

Too bad! You're not only fighting politicians, but your own state bee organization. Ignorance, tempered with stupidity, is pretty much incurable, no matter which state you're in.


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## fish_stix

Sorry. Doubled up again!


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## brac

So I guess ther are no crops there that need pollenation? I know that this year over 68,000 hives came into Maine. That doesn't say anything about Nuc's brought in.


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## Bens-Bees

Such a law, if enforced, would destroy agriculture in that state. It wouldn't just hurt it, it would destroy it. If this isn't a brand new law, then I guarantee they don't enforce it.


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## sqkcrk

fatscher said:


> I spoke with Jim Tew at the state meeting, and Jim is of the feeling that this law goes back to the early 1970s, 25 years before any reported cases of SHB, so yes, I think you're right.


Did Jim tell you about moving bees from Ohio to Alabama and back again in the 1980s? Apparently there is a way around the law. Perhaps by ignoring it? Not that I'm suggesting anyone do so.


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## fatscher

sqkcrk said:


> Did Jim tell you about moving bees from Ohio to Alabama and back again in the 1980s? Apparently there is a way around the law. Perhaps by ignoring it? Not that I'm suggesting anyone do so.


Jim was extremely middle of the road, and took great pains to illustrate his neutrality when we talked about it. I don't blame him, I wouldn't want to be drawn into the controversy if I didn't have to be. Jim has emotional attachments to Alabama, because he's a native son. Ohio State pays his mortgage (assuming he has one) but he's immensely loyal to the good ole boy mentality of "The Heart of Dixie", thus he never expressed any opinion different than the law.

But to answer your question, no, Jim never mentioned a thing about it...:waiting:


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## fatscher

fish_stix said:


> Too bad! You're not only fighting politicians, but your own state bee organization. Ignorance, tempered with stupidity, is pretty much incurable, no matter which state you're in.


Yep, very true. But the thing is, I'm sort of hard-headed too. Ask my mom...there was no more determined kid than me, and she used to call me "hard-head" because I just wouldn't let it go. I'm a fighter and a bulldog. When my jaws lock down on the flesh of the bull I just don't let go. Ask my mentor, winevines, she'll tell you I'm about as the most persistent cuss you'll ever meet.



brac said:


> So I guess ther are no crops there that need pollenation? I know that this year over 68,000 hives came into Maine. That doesn't say anything about Nuc's brought in.


Well your neighbor to the south, Vermont, got packages this spring, and SURRRPIZE!!!!! lo and behold there was shb in them, tsk tsk. First time the Green Mountain folk had seen the little black buggers, and I'm not talking about the flies, neitherinch:




Bens-Bees said:


> Such a law, if enforced, would destroy agriculture in that state. It wouldn't just hurt it, it would destroy it. If this isn't a brand new law, then I guarantee they don't enforce it.


Thank you, my fellow Tennessee brother! Totally agree!!! I told Dennis that Mike Studer himself (well in form only) had inspected my bees when they crossed the state line from Virginia at Bristol. It didn't faze him. There's an ultra-conservative thinking in this state that is self-destructive. Ironic that the next day, I drove through Selma Alabama to visit my college son. You can imagine what I was thinking.

I'd like to start a campaign called FREE ALABAMA. I need support from fellow Alabamians. Hope to find some.


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## hpm08161947

So I suppose there are no migratory beeks in Alabama... come to think of it I can not think of any. Are there no crops that require pollination...ie... squash, cucumbers, pumpkins, etc? Guess that could all be done by intrastate beeks. I am surprised that the Ag guys do not have more influence - they are more than a powerful lobby in this state.


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## brac

I thought I posted earlier, but I don't see it. Must have got side tracked.

This year over 70,000 hives came into Maine to do pollination, is there nothing that grows there that needs bees?


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## suttonbeeman

While I usually do my best to obey the law, I hate stupidity and political red tape. So here is my solution....Go load your bees and move them in...just keep your mouth shut...noone will know but you....If inspector ask a yearlater....those were splits I made.


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## fatscher

suttonbeeman said:


> ...just keep your mouth shut....


I'm trying to... it's just so hard to do. My wife tells me to shut my mouth but then she complains I don't listen to her:scratch:


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## llang

I suspect a simple federal lawsuit would result in the state law being overturned... Bees are clearly very very important to interstate commerce and only the US Congress has the authority to regulate interstate commerce.. however every law is "legal" until challenged in the courts...:shhhh:


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## fatscher

*More on Alabama's no comb law*

The hate mail is rolling in on me from some of my Alabama beekeeper "brothers".

One guy told me to get my facts straight, then proceeded to tell me how I should spend my idol [sic] time working at a veterans home here in Huntsville, rather than work to change this law. But he never set me straight on the facts!!! guffaw!

In fact, NO ONE has offered ANY facts on this stupid (oops did I say that out loud?:no state law.

So I went digging a little, and here's the micro info on what I could find. P.S. Did I mention that no one here wants to talk about it?

In the Alabama codes, Title 2 Section 14, there appears a four digit number along with a series of other numbers like: "(Acts 1965, No. 794, p. 1488). Does this mean the code was enacted in 1965? I did learn from googling Harry Fulton the following factoid...

In 1970 MBA (Mississippi Beekeepers Association) proposed a no-comb law which would prohibit movement of bees on combs into the state. MBA consisted of mostly native commercial package and queen producers who opposed the newer and fast developing migratory beekeeping industry consisting of mostly non-native beekeepers. The legislation was not enacted. Such conflicts of interest between the two groups have hampered enactment of new laws and regulations since 1970. _A History of Entomology in Mississippi, 1989, Mississippi Entomological Association_ 

I do know Alabama has never been a honey production or pollination state, rather the predominant history has been in package and queen production. 

A beekeeper local to Alabama wrote me stating: "Unfortunately, the newer generation in these businesses sees quicker profits and easier money to sell off the farm (Bee farm) for subdivisions. That has reduced the number of large queen and package beekeepers in the state. The border law situation was set up to protect that industry."

Supposedly, and I am still awaiting the facts and figures from the Alabama dept pf agriculture, Alabama has lagged the other contiguous 47 states in getting all new diseases and pest by 3 or 4 years, so (they claim) the law works right? Not clear at all how accurate that is...it's what I'm told. Alabama claims they've had no reported cases of AFB resistant to Oxytetracycline.

While the lag in pest intro was the case with Small Hive Beetle, they were first discovered in the middle of the state first. That was a mystery for many regional inspectors until they examined where they appeared -- TRUCK STOPS. I mean, duhhhh!

So here's a state law, with a the border like a sieve because interstate transport on federal highways cannot be interfered with. So why the law???
It's just ignorant madness.

Honest no-comb proponents will admit the law has, in fact, retarded the growth of beekeeping in this state. South Alabama is warm enough for migratory beekeepers to over winter. If that were allowed, it would create growth in the commercial beekeeping industry and add income to the state. 

But many believe loosening the law would infect the state industry with all sorts of diseases and pests since migratory beekeeping from outside (I suppose migratory beekeeping from the inside is less stressful???) is very stressful to the bees. 

I know, back in 2000, the president of the Alabama Beekeepers Association was offered a huge bribe, if he would help this out of state migratory beekeeper to get the law changed. He double crossed the briber and argued to legistlators in Montgomery to KEEP the law.

Many Alabamans are deeply loyal to this law, and really don't know why they are, but they know they are.


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## markmaster

Interesting thread -- although I am a small-scale, fairly new beek here in central Alabama, this issue affects me in some ways. Have you spoken with Ted Kretschmann yet? He has always seemed pretty knowledgeable regarding the political aspects of beekeeping in this state. I plan to do a bit of digging on this (many thanks for the excellent references in your posts), but in the meantime - and this is ignorant opinion only, subject to change - I'm thinking that some of the resistance you are encountering may be reduced if, instead of merely calling for the repeal of the Code, you could offer a replacement or a restatement of it. No point in leaving a gaping hole in the few legal protections we have, right? We have a slate of new legislators in Bama, who probably need some new legislation to introduce, if for no other reason than to convince future voters that they have "done something" -- contact your area legislator, educate him/her on the issue, and see if that generates a change.

Thanks for providing me with a bit of fresh brain-food ---


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## fatscher

markmaster said:


> ...I'm thinking that some of the resistance you are encountering may be reduced if, instead of merely calling for the repeal of the Code, you could offer a replacement or a restatement of it. No point in leaving a gaping hole in the few legal protections we have, right?
> 
> -- contact your area legislator, educate him/her on the issue, and see if that generates a change.


You are absolutely right, and I've thought more about how to be more moderate on this subject too. I've written a proposed wording that I tried to share (e-mail me and I'll send it to you) with ABA officers and board of directors. Surprisingly about 3 out of the 5 or 6 BoD's were quite supportive of changing the law.

It would be wonderful if the disease infested migratory out of staters with 60,000 colonies could be kept a bay, while allowing small timers like me (and you?) to bring in genetic diversity on nucs, sustainable-style.

I have contacted the Alabama State Attorney General on this matter and I'm in dialog with my state congressmen, too. You bring up good points...thanks for that.


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## Grant

Interesting thread indeed. If I were facing this dilemma, I'd have to first ask myself...

First: Where is the enforcement?

On the surface, it sounds like a good practice to limit the disease potential. But the law has to be enforced. I would surmise there are simply too many opportunties and too few inspectors to make this law enforcable. If my bees were healthy, I'd probably just move my bees and fly under the radar.

Second: What are the penalties?

Sometimes laws lack enough of a penalty, especially for first-time and one-time violators, that ignoring the law and breaking the law has no consequences other than a slap on the wrist. I'd probably move my bees and pay the fine, if I got caught. It's kind of like parking tickets on expired meters in small towns. The fine is minimal, but you still need to get caught. 

Third: Is it worth getting caught?

People break the law every day and never get caught. Not enough enforcement and penalties that don't change behavior. When they get caught, it's not a big deal. If moving bees was a serious issue for me, I might take my chances and move them very quietly. If you get caught, what's the worst they can do?

Fourth: If I break the law, who do I endanger?

Presumably, laws are on the books to protect the general public. So if I choose to wantonly break this law, who am I endangering? If my bees are healthy, not that everyone's bees are, who do I place at risk? Before moving my bees, am I totally assured this violation of the law poses no risk to any other beekeeper? It's kind of like those laws that want to ban pitbulls. And yet I know of one, perhaps isolated incident where the family pet is a pitbull and one of the most gentle, friendly dogs you'd ever encounter. Yet our politicians feel the need to outlaw this breed. But if was raising pitbulls, am I sure they won't turn on the neighbor who comes by my house to buy honey? There are new laws restricting the sale of raw milk. Is it anyone's business if I choose to drink raw milk?

Fifth: Is this law even relavent?

If you study the history of most laws, they start with a specific example/problem caused by a minority. Politicians then make laws to inflict upon the majority. And in today's culture, special interest groups lobby the politicians to create laws in the favor of the special interests. The rest of us pay the costs and the inconvenience. I often wonder if the politicians have any clue to the raminifications of the laws they make.

There are also a ton of out-dated laws that bear no relavence today. But getting them changed takes an act of Congress...literally.

If this were me, I'd take a long look at this law. While not advocating outright, wholesale anarchy, we have a host of stupid laws that have no relavence to any common sense. Sometimes a fella has to do what a fella has to do. If this were me, and if was totally assured my bees were healthy, I'd move my bees and keep my mouth shut. Fly under the radar.

I do move bees, but it's splits and nucs to non-migratory locations. I don't have these kind of laws and restrictions to deal with...thankfully. I'm more of a "spirit" of the law person than the "letter" of the law. 

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## wcubed

A condensed case history:
I live about 6 miles north of the AL state line by a squiggly route. The farmers of northern Madison Co. had done me a favor in an earlier business venture, and I wanted to return the favor. Building hive count during the wipeout of feral bees from T mite, outyards were located along an east/west road - Ready Section in Madison Co. about 10 miles (?) from the state line.

To support increasing hive count, a small box ad in the yellow pages under pest control billed me as the honey bee specialist. At that time, the bee inspector and pest control certification troops reported to the same chief.
They knew I had not been certified in the chemicals used in pest control, and the chief sicced the inspector on me. It wasn't much trouble to convince the bee inspector that I didn't use chemicals and certfication was not needed. They did insist that I register my outyards and colonies that were located in Al. I complied. A small fee for registration.

It was obvious that hives were being moved across the state line on a regular basis, but the subject of the comb law was never mentioned. How's that for rational enforcement for those operating on the fringes?
Walt


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## markmaster

An excellent argument/case study supporting a revision of the law and its associated enforcement apparatus. A law which prevents cooperation among conscionable people, or a law which is unenforced because even the controlling agency (or, at least, its human agent) recognizes the impracticality of the law, needs to be revised - not excised, mind you: we need sensible legislation to control unwanted behaviors.

If y'all don't mind, I think that I will contact Lonnie Funderburg from the ABA and see if he has any ideas about how to push this idea toward the State Ag Department -- I'd guess that they are the appropriate folks to present this to the legislature. Meanwhile, an email to your district's legislator won't hurt, either. I sent a couple yesterday and am awaiting a response.


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## fatscher

markmaster said:


> ...I think that I will contact Lonnie Funderburg from the ABA and see if he has any ideas about how to push this idea toward the State Ag Department....


Yeah, you can try that... but here's what Lonnie wrote me when I tried to pose the question...

"*Dear New beekeeper,
I will not support your efforts. Too many great beekeepers fought too hard for too long to get this law that at least slows down the importation of new diseases and pests for me to trash their efforts. The Board of Directors of the Alabama Beekeepers will not support any change to the law. If you raise this matter at the annual meeting, I will vote against it."* _Lonnie W. Funderburg, Editor, the Stinger, newsletter of the Alabama Beekeepers Association._

Well guess what, Lonnie, 3 out of 6 Board of Director members support changing the law!!! I know, because I've spoken with them. Care to reassess what the state Board of Directors think???

Listen up everyone, you all outside of Alabama should be aware how emotional and personal many (who support this law) in this state take this law. If you question this law, you are ostracized. At our meeting in Oct, Dr. Jim Tew, feature columnist in _Bee Culture_ mag, told me personally that I would quickly gain an ill-reputation among my Alabamians if I pushed this. The world needs to know how backward this law is. Inspect bees on comb, FINE! But don't stop them at the border, it's just senseless.


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## fatscher

wcubed said:


> How's that for rational enforcement for those operating on the fringes?
> Walt


Walt, as a well respected beekeeper here in the southeast, your sentiments encourage me. Thank you. I'm a native Tennessean, but live in Alabama, 14 miles south of the Tenn border, and thus am a state voting citizen.

I believe reason will prevail, but until then, there's a significant lack of rational thought among some ALFA commercial beekeepers, tinged with passionate emotion.


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## markmaster

fatscher said:


> .....I would quickly gain an ill-reputation among my Alabamians if I pushed this. The world needs to know how backward this law is. Inspect bees on comb, FINE! But don't stop them at the border, it's just senseless.


Seems passion is high on both sides of this issue. I'm not sure that the author of the above "warning" is correct about your gaining an ill reputation - it's just an opinion, certainly .... I'm also not sure that "the world needs to know how backward this law is" -- this is pretty much a state issue, and it's unclear how much influence out-of-state beeks could have (political pressure is generally tied to financial pressure, and there doesn't seem to be any strong interest from regional producers of nucs to create this pressure). Interesting stuff, though, and I am still soliciting input from the ABA and from the state Ag Dept people on this. I have to be in Montgomery next week for other purposes, so I have requested a time-slot to meet with someone at the Ag Dept to get their thoughts on the idea of revising this section of the Code.


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## fatscher

Passions aside, I think there is a rational thought among those trying to change the law. If the law is amended for nothing else but to allow nucs in for (1) requeening "accidentally Africanized" hives or to (2) expand genetic diversity then that is a major advancement for the honeybee in Alabama.

I do admit my frustration, but at the end of the day people need to be aware that this law is on the books (because quite frankly many beekeepers I've spoken to admit they knew nothing about it). Kind of like when Tom Bodet throws out a random law (in his Motel 6 commercials), "Did you know in Filthy Gulch, AZ it's illegal to feed a mule a hamburger while sitting in a bathtub?" You're like, huh????

So, no, the entire world literally doesn't care about this law no matter what, but Alabama beekeepers should be aware.

Good luck in Montgomery. More people questioning this, like you, will force the supporters to justify it. Not sure the justification is there to keep out nucs in "onesie - twosie" deliveries across the border.


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## markmaster

I have to tell you: I am more and more supportive of this idea. I'm just groping around in an effort to find the right avenue to push it forward. Right now, I'm "shotgunning" ideas at you to see if any of them seem more sensible than others. I am going to speak to people as I have opportunity becuase, as you say, the more folks who hear about this, the more voices will join the conversation -- then we can see what "the will of the people" is on this, and move from there.

I'll be in Montgomery Tuesday and Wednesday. Let you know what I find out.


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## dixiebooks

fatscher said:


> Yeah, you can try that... but here's what Lonnie wrote me when I tried to pose the question...
> 
> "*Dear New beekeeper,
> I will not support your efforts. Too many great beekeepers fought too hard for too long to get this law that at least slows down the importation of new diseases and pests for me to trash their efforts. The Board of Directors of the Alabama Beekeepers will not support any change to the law. If you raise this matter at the annual meeting, I will vote against it."* _Lonnie W. Funderburg, Editor, the Stinger, newsletter of the Alabama Beekeepers Association._
> 
> Well guess what, Lonnie, 3 out of 6 Board of Director members support changing the law!!! I know, because I've spoken with them. Care to reassess what the state Board of Directors think???
> 
> Listen up everyone, you all outside of Alabama should be aware how emotional and personal many (who support this law) in this state take this law. If you question this law, you are ostracized. At our meeting in Oct, Dr. Jim Tew, feature columnist in _Bee Culture_ mag, told me personally that I would quickly gain an ill-reputation among my Alabamians if I pushed this. The world needs to know how backward this law is. Inspect bees on comb, FINE! But don't stop them at the border, it's just senseless.


Sounds like this DOES need to be raised at an annual meeting. Then we can take note of how the Directors vote. Anyone voting for the status quo needs to be targeted at the next election. BTW, how are directors chosen and by whom? -James


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## Scrapfe

sqkcrk said:


> Is this [a] new law or old law?


To the best of my knowledge this law not only predates the last recompilation of the Alabama State Code that occurred about 1975, this law predates anti-biotics. However, when you realize some adjoining states didn't or still don't require apiary inspections this law makes a little more sense.

I would just get new frames for my Tennessee bees and move them into Alabama woodenware, then sell my Tennessee equipment, drawn comb, and all and be done with it. The last time a member of the Alabama Legislature quoted me a price was about twenty-five years ago, and then he wanted 55k split between him and two of his buddies to change a law to my liking. With a quarter century's worth of inflation and the housing bubble meltdown, there is no telling what it would cost to change a law today, especially in the face of the organized opposition mentioned. By the way, that law twenty-five years ago was changed, but I didn't pay to change it, I only helped raise 55k. 

Never never let a politician know you are out there. If you do the next thing you know you’ll be paying 20 bucks a hive yearly inspection fees and a $5 per jar purity sticker to go on every jar of honey. The real clencher is that the Chinese will have the stickers counterfited before you get yours from the state.


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## Stonefly7

fatscher,

I just saw this thread. Sorry for late response. This stuns me, as we are looking at a possible transfer to AL. I surely will follow grants advise and fly under the radar. But, I was thinking of contacting the local area BC pres and inquiring about pollen sources and general conversation about bees. The thought is, he may or may not welcome competition from another keep to his county and spill the beans. 

There are three of us out here who run 100+, we all talk and share with each other, which creates a nice working relationship. Its nice to gleen from others. 

If the transfer works out, this will not be a show stopper, but I will not sell off all our hard work. Thanks for the information.

Kind regards,


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## Scrapfe

hpm08161947 said:


> ... are [there] no migratory beeks in Alabama [?]... come to think of it I can not think of any. Are there no crops that require pollination...ie... squash, cucumbers, pumpkins...


New World crops, cotton, corn, squash, pecans etc. evolved in the absence of honeybees, so these crops are not dependant on honeybees for pollination. The large planters sometimes "invite" hobbyist to set their hives down near their Old World crops. The crops that require insect pollination that is. Isn't this what the term "local sustainable agriculture" means? 

There is more than enough local beekeepers (as far as I know) to pollinate Alabama’s fruit crops. The cucumber crops mentioned are not very attractive to honeybees. Seems I read somewhere, maybe from the University of Georgia, Florida, or Auburn that there is a danger of honeybees starving on cucumbers, squash, and other melon crops. In addition, if the melon fields are not huge there is a danger that the beekeepers honeybees would ignore the crop the melon farmer paid the beekeeper to bee pollinate, and instead work other nearby blooming crops or wild flowers. The more robust bumble bee (on a bee to bee basis) is IMHO a much better melon or squash pollinator. She is able to shoulder her way into and out of just opened or almost closed melon, or squash blossoms. The truth is that most row crops and all cereal crops here do not benefit or hardly benefit from honeybee pollination, although the bees can benefit enormously from the same crops. 

How from the "be careful what you wish for, you just may just get it," department. 

Today there is a "better" way for cotton farmers to avoid killing honeybees if the farmer has to spray for spider mites or other cotton pests not controlled by Bt cotton. They plant cotton varieties (although I understand the seed companies refuse to comment on this) that produce nothing attractive to honeybees. No honeybees present in you cotton field, no dead honeybees when or if you spray. Isn’t that an elegant solution to a thorny problem? Although it prevents most bee deaths from cotton pesticides, this doses nothing to help bees or beekeepers.

What will be the next crop to thumb its nose at honeybees, self fertile almonds? I'll bet you a dime against a doughnut somewhere, someone is working on or thinking about the solution to this $250,000,000 (to the almond producer) “problem” as I type.


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## markmaster

Very informative post, scrapfe -- I learned a lot from reading it. You're spot on as far as the reasons for a lack of need for migratory beeks in this state: we don't have commercial crops which specifically require honeybees for pollination. The crops we do have can be serviced by locals (I think the beek with the largest number of hives runs about 1800-plus, but he's an exception to the rule). Interesting about the cotton, though -- we have a lot of cotton in my area, and my field-neighbor and I have discussed this a few times ... haven't seen any of the experimental seed yet, but we figure it won't be long before it's available. I'm trying to talk him out of buying into the idea -- I get good honey from cotton blossoms.


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## Scrapfe

markmaster said:


> ... the beek with the largest number of hives runs about 1800-plus, but he's an exception to the rule...


Seems like 40-50 years ago there were several large package bee producers here. I don't get around much any more, but today I don't know of anyone in state that sells packages or a large number of queens. anyone who knows of one please tell me. Seems like there was one in Baldwin County and one a short distance South of Montgomery. Anyone out there who can jog or jump start my memory. How about it markmaster?


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## markmaster

Scrapfe said:


> Seems like 40-50 years ago there were several large package bee producers here. I don't get around much any more, but today I don't know of anyone in state that sells packages or a large number of queens. anyone who knows of one please tell me. Seems like there was one in Baldwin County and one a short distance South of Montgomery. Anyone out there who can jog or jump start my memory. How about it markmaster?


Ted Kretschmann (Alabama Bee Company) in Dadeville is the only one I know -- he produces a few hundred nucs each year, but no packages that I know of. Queens? Not sure at all ... I get mine from Rossman or from friends.


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## Fusion_power

Just because you don't know them does not mean queen and package producers are not there. You might consider having a talk with some of them before you start this commotion.

For the record, I've been a beekeeper in Alabama since 1970 and have been well aware of this law since my first colony of bees. In my experience, most Alabama beekeepers are aware of the requirements.

Also for the record, I would not support changing this law at this time. It was enacted for the specific purpose of protecting the queen and package industry in the state. It dates back to the 1930's when AFB was a major scourge of beekeeping and migratory beekeeping was just beginning. It has been tweaked once since then to update for queens and packages to be shipped into the state.

Hive beetles were brought into the state by migratory beekeepers moving along routes parallel to the state, specifically up I 75 through Georgia and other similar routes. There are also plenty of beekeepers that run trucks through the state or move colonies in violation of the law. That does not mean I want to see it become any worse than it already is.

DarJones


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## markmaster

Fusion_power said:


> Just because you don't know them does not mean queen and package producers are not there. You might consider having a talk with some of them before you start this commotion.
> DarJones


I don't want to be over-sensitive here, but the introduction to your very informative post (*I'd appreciate seeing more posts from supporters of the comb law*, for my own education) sounds a bit like a blanket accusation. Some of us on this thread are just trying to engage in conversation about beekeeping because we are interested, but not yet well-versed, in the issues involved here. Besides, "commotion" is not always a bad thing -- at least more of us new folks are becoming aware of the law and the reasons for its existence.


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## Scrapfe

Fusion_power said:


> ...I would not support changing this law... It was enacted [to] protect... the queen and package industry in the state. It dates back to the 1930's when AFB was a major scourge ...and migratory beekeeping was just beginning...


Like I said, the Alabama Comb Law predates antibiotics; I only knew that it was retained in the recompilation of the Alabama Code c. 1975.

However, if government intrusion into citizens' business affairs is such a common good, and so wonderful an invention, I beg to ask the question, "Why are there not more commercial package and queen producers in Alabama?" Did Alabama, like all governments beholding to man, "protect" commercial beekeepers right out of Alabama and into neighboring states? In a court of civil law, the evidence says yes, but is that the reality? I for one don't know.

In my former occupation as an auto dismantler and recycler, I twice bid on wrecked tractor-trailers used by migratory beeks to haul bees across Alabama. In the 1970s one reefer, was hauling about 500 hives, when it turned turtle on I65 North, just south of the Tennessee state line. I don't know how many colonies escaped that spring. But by the fall when I bid on the salvage, there was a dozen or more feral colonies adhering to the top and walls inside the reefer. Since these snowbird bees abandoned their RV, or I should say since their RV abandoned them, these bees were technically legally in the state, these survivor bees possessed no combs when they set up housekeeping in Alabama, but surviving a truck wreck is a poor way to shake packages. IMHO, the comb law is designed to prevent migratory beeks and their bees from settling down in Alabama for the winter, and bringing American Foul Brood with them from northerner climes where I understand AFB is more common. If I am wrong, I truly apologize in advance.

My paternal grandmother was the daughter of a honey hunter and beekeeper of some local renowned on South Sand Mountain. Maw-Maw could not stay in the same room with anyone eating boiled shrimp. To her shrimp ****tail looked too much like bee larva. Maw-Maw gave me my first bee having lesson about 60 years ago. While I sat on Maw-Maw’s lap Maw-Maw said to me, “Honey," she said, "AFB is a shoo, nasty, nasty thing to find in ones' hives.” When I began having bees again, my first packages came complete with an advance guard of small hive beetles, but just enough to keep a few of the girls on their toes. As far as SHBs go, I would be suspicious today of any package that doesn’t contain a FEW small hive beetles. A few SHBs only proves that them bees be fighters. A lot of SHBs…well not so good.

Yes, hives, nucs, and combs spread SHBs, but how closely can you control a wild insects, (like SHBs) if that insect has 6 legs, 4 wings, and can fly 5 miles at a time? If you could control such an insect by passing laws, then Africanized honeybees would be as dead today as the dodo bird, which BTW could not fly. For all honeybees also have 6 legs, 4 wings, and they can fly 5 miles at a time, and besides, there are hundreds of laws against or prescribing how to keep honeybees. BTW, I doubt any government program or agency will bring AHBs under control before AHBs reach the Yukon River. And if or when it ever becomes apparent that AHBs will never reach the Yukon, I look for the USDA, the EPA, and the DHLS to issue a (sic) *“joint”* :lpf: press release claiming victory over killer bees.


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## fatscher

Fusion_power said:


> Just because you don't know them does not mean queen and package producers are not there. You might consider having a talk with some of them before you start this commotion.


I only know of David Kelton selling packages in state. Name me another Alabama beekeeper actively selling packages on a large scale and I'll sell you some ocean-front property in Tennessee. Bama's largest beekeeper, Ted Kretschmann, sells nucs, not packages. 

Alabama's days of being a major package producer are way way long gone...One of ABA's past presidents will tell you that even to this day. So what industry is there to protect with the law? More queens are produced from states which don't even have such a law...so I ask again, what industry does the law protect? IMHO, Alabama needs to progress into the 21st century, and inspect border-crossing hives like the other 49 states do. It works for them, it can work for us.

Secondly, most beekeepers I know of have less use for packages, they make splits to replenish deadouts. We can do that without penalty here in Alabama because of our last frost dates and climates.

As far as starting commotions, I can't help it, my 5th great grandfather fought at Kings Mountain in 1780 and another 3 ancestors fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War. Starting commotions run in my blood.:lpf:


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## ACBEES

Thinking they can control disease by not letting comb in when disease is all around them is just plain ignorant. What about feral bees flying in/out at will? Or do they have state mandated feral bee crossings with inspectors:lpf:


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## ACBEES

ScrapFe.....self pollinating Almond trees are already in existence. If I'm not mistaken, there was some press last year about getting the first substantial crop from these trees(which takes a long time with an almond tree 12-15 years I think.) and citing facts about how those almonds compared just as well with open pollinated trees in production, flavor etc. Some time back I made a comment I didn't think their would be an almond pollination industry in 50 years. Increasing hive rental fees and bee health issues will force almond producers to switch to self pollinating trees.


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## fatscher

ACBEES said:


> Alabama seems to be backards in a lot of their thinking. ... Guess they want to maintain their own little fifedom.
> Thinking they can control disease by not letting comb in when disease is all around them is just plain ignorant.


I can understand the image Alabama has created with the rest of the country, among a myriad of subjects. As a recent immigrant to Alabama, and having taken the oath of allegiance in Alabama, and having become a card-carrying (drivers license), voting Alabama citizen, I can say not all Alabamians are that way.

Supporters of the law strongly believe the law has held off intro of new diseases/pests in the state by an average of 3-4 years. They feel they have good proof in this, whether anecdotal or documented. Either way, that doesn't matter, as long as there's some legitimacy to the law it'll be extremely difficult to defeat. The state beekeepers association, as well as the Ala farmer's federation agricultural honey commodity advocates, also act like a lobbyist against any efforts to change the law. So, as long as that powerful force is against it, it won't happen soon. Also, the state legislature has become wise that the largest push to change the law seems to come from outsiders. Whether a citizen or not, if you support a change, you're viewed as an outsider.

Ironically, with the recent arrival of AHB in Georgia, I am confident most supporters of no-comb will see the law as slowing AHB into Alabama. I, for one, see the benefit of relaxing the law to allow EHB nucs in from any source to emergency requeen AHB-infected hives.

Frankly, I'm not totally sure the law predates anti-biotics but I have not done that deep of research on anti-biotics. The law came in effect in 1965 as near as I can tell. AFB had been seen in this country for well over 100 years at that time.


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## dixiebooks

markmaster said:


> I have to tell you: I am more and more supportive of this idea. I'm just groping around in an effort to find the right avenue to push it forward. Right now, I'm "shotgunning" ideas at you to see if any of them seem more sensible than others. I am going to speak to people as I have opportunity becuase, as you say, the more folks who hear about this, the more voices will join the conversation -- then we can see what "the will of the people" is on this, and move from there.
> 
> I'll be in Montgomery Tuesday and Wednesday. Let you know what I find out.


Civil Disobedience - it's become an Alabama tradition. -james


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## Scrapfe

ACBEES said:


> ScrapFe.....self pollinating Almond trees are already in existence...


You don't say? Man oh man, is my crystal ball hitting on all eight cylinders or what?


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## markmaster

ACBEES said:


> Alabama seems to be backards in a lot of their thinking. If I'm not mistaken they are the only state in the south that won't particpitate in reciprocal conceal and carry laws with other states. With a TX conceal/carry permit I can carry a gun from Arizona to Florida...except I have to go around Alabama or put the gun in the trunk unloaded. Guess they want to maintain their own little fifedom.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> You might want to do a fact-check on this. Alabama has reciprocity with a number of other states. ... As for the rationale behind the no-comb law -- I'm still thinking through that, but at this point, it seems that no one has offered a reasonable alternative -- I read/see a lot of BMW's, but no positive suggestions for improvement.


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## dixiebooks

markmaster said:


> ACBEES said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alabama seems to be backards in a lot of their thinking. If I'm not mistaken they are the only state in the south that won't particpitate in reciprocal conceal and carry laws with other states. With a TX conceal/carry permit I can carry a gun from Arizona to Florida...except I have to go around Alabama or put the gun in the trunk unloaded. Guess they want to maintain their own little fifedom.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> You might want to do a fact-check on this. Alabama has reciprocity with a number of other states. ... As for the rationale behind the no-comb law -- I'm still thinking through that, but at this point, it seems that no one has offered a reasonable alternative -- I read/see a lot of BMW's, but no positive suggestions for improvement.
> 
> 
> 
> Warning: Off Topic: Just as an addition to the above, the following link may be helpful. This is a list of states from which AL will recognize CCW permits. -james
> http://www.ago.alabama.gov/issue/pistol.htm
Click to expand...


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## markmaster

fatscher said:


> IMHO, Alabama needs to progress into the 21st century, and inspect border-crossing hives like the other 49 states do. It works for them, it can work for us.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> My apologies: I had forgotten this suggestion, which I thought at the time - and still think today - is an excellent starting-point for a discussion of how to change the law .... if it is agreed that it needs changing. Your comment about the difficulties involved in the process are to the point ( we DO have a reputation for resisting "outsiders", don't we? ) but my experience in Alabama has been that, once everyone is brought to the table, change is not impossible to achieve. BTW: will you be in Auburn Feb. 5?


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## Ted Kretschmann

Since my name comes up in discussion. I thought that I would throw in my two cent for what it is worth on the no comb law of Alabama. I started keeping bees back in 1973. I have done what is considered impossible, I started with one hive of bees and built this business. We now run around 1800 colonies. It has not been a bed of roses. This outfit collapsed three times due to both mites, beetles and ccd over the course of 39 years of beekeeping. Did the law keep the problems out---NO! Did the law keep a vibrant beekeeping industry alive in Alabama--NO!! I, as a former package bee producer and all those that have gone before me, I can say this for certainty. WE LIVED AND DEFENDED THAT LAW AND AS AN INDUSTRY DIED BY THAT LAW> That law, when there was a package and queen industry had it's purpose but that purpose has long gone. The law needs to be repealed. Other states around us have vibrant commercial beekeeping industries. Alabama has not an industry left. With the coming of the African honey bee, I wonder were the hobbyist that so defend this confounding law are going to get their bees and queens. They too, will die by this law also in the near future. I have survived because I am economically sustained by out of state dollars.----- I am a PROUD member of Souix Honey. That law cut the other commercial producers off from out of state opportunities economically and KILLED them. So when all you people want to argue back and forth about the virtues of the No comb law of Alabama, You tell them that one man watched his beloved beekeeping industry die in his state and it will never return. Yes, I know how "Uncus" last of the Mohicans felt at the bitter end. Sincerely Ted Kretschmann of Alabama, Last of the commerical beekeepers in Alabama


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## markmaster

Pretty powerful argument considering its source ......


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## Eek-a-beek

Alabama's law is wise but it is like this: if you wash your hands after using the bathroom then it protects you a little but it only really starts to make a difference when everyone else does so as well. If the Feds mandated that all states follow Alabama's example then the current bee crisis would be brought under control.

TK, other states do not have vibrant industries. Commercial beekeepers are going out of business all across the country. CCD and other losses are already barely sustainable but rising. The Alabama beekeeping industry may not seem vibrant but it is sustainable. Nationwide the industry is faltering. Soon Alabama will be an example that other states study on how to do things right.

In Massachusetts a survey of hives showed that migrant hives are bringing diseases into the state. Seven viruses were checked but only three were found to be a problem. Migrant hives had high frequencies of triple infestations. There is nothing to stop the other four viruses from flaring up also and they are not the only ones that exist. Soon enough a migrant hive with only three virus infestations will be considered healthy.

Even if nosema, mites, and other enemies can be defeated it will not happen soon and there is nothing holding the many virus strains back. Humans use vaccines against viruses but that can not be done with bees. Eventually it will become impossible to replace losses and the whole beekeeping industry will collapse. That is if the rising price of a pollination hive does not first crush their agricultural customers. A quarantine law, like in Alabama, is the only measure available that offers the bees any protection.


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## Ted Kretschmann

HORSE HOCKEY---Mississippi, Georgia and Florida all have still sustainable numbers of bees and at least some shadow of an industry. Alabama has less than 9000 colonies of bees left. I bet you did not know that. Even by the farmers federation tally, which is inflated, only 800,000 pounds of honey were produced. Africanized bees will blow through the state of Alabama like manure through a goose. There are just not enough bees here to stop them. WE NEED BEES AND LOTS OF THEM!!! The late Roger Morse always said dilution is the solution. The only way to bring back some shadow of an Industry is to OPEN THE BORDER and regulate under compliance in the beekeepers that want to come here. Sadly, you are right on one thing, there are getting to be less and less commercial beekeepers. So I really do not think there will be a "tidal wave" of commerical beekeepers wanting to come here like the hobbyist in this state worry about should the law be repealed and revised. Honey bees will survive, beekeepers will not should every state adopt an ALABAMA type law. Over regulation is not the solution but can contribute to and cause major problems. There are vast areas in this state were bees are scarce. TK


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## fatscher

Ted Kretschmann said:


> WE NEED BEES AND LOTS OF THEM!!! The late Roger Morse always said dilution is the solution. The only way to bring back some shadow of an Industry is to OPEN THE BORDER and regulate under compliance in the beekeepers that want to come here. TK


Ted, you are my next best bee buddy with that statement. I think Roger Morse was the greatest keeper of bees who ever lived right up there with G.M. Doolittle.

I'm proud to declare on this forum I'll be buying my Alabama bees from you. Thanks for your wisdom!


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## winevines

fatscher said:


> Ted, you are my next best bee buddy.... QUOTE]
> 
> Keith you rock and are ever faithful.
> 
> As for the MA poster... I believe that in our lifetime this whole bee supply and demand will reverse direction or at least even out and the NORTH will be supplying queens to the SOUTH to improve things. Hide and wait or get on board.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Karla, you are probably right. EHB bees and Queens will have to come from somewhere. Even as we speak, bees in Hawaii are catching hell due to Varroa mite and hive beetle. So that source may not be a viable one for a few years untill the situation there stablizes. Northern California supplys good stock but you have to book many months in advance to get them. For the moment, south Georgia and some breeders in Florida still have good bees and everyone had better buy them while you can before they are "tainted". I did not have a problem with queens from Australia and had bought many of them through the Weavers from their "down under" operation. Somebody though had a quark and cut that supply off. Our industry nationwide and in Alabama, need to do some serious soul searching. Where in the world will we get our breeding and general use stock from?? New Zealand, Australia, British Columbia in Canada, these are all still viable possible suppliers of Quality queens. I foresee the future that the State of Kentucky, yes Kentucky may one day supply the nation with queen bees. It is Not too far north and not too far south. So Karla, you are probably right!! TK PS I think I will retire to a tropical location and set up the "Carribean Queen company" when the time is right.


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## wdcrkapry205

Welcome to the forum Ted, you've arrived with a splash!


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## hoodswoods

The answer to the problem is informing the pests themselves of the law and hold them responsible for violations - I'm sure they will abide by each state's border.


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## Eek-a-beek

@Karla: Your prediction is possible although the seasonal timing will be less convenient. Once the AHB problem becomes acute in the South, the demand for bees from that area will dwindle. I feel bad for the folks in Georgia who just this year noticed their shadows are lengthening. AHB may never get established in the North so perhaps queens and packages will be raised there. Tell me, is it true that Keith has bulldog jaws?

@Keith and Ted: Roger Morse (Bees and Beekeeping. Ithica, New York: Cornell University Press. [p. 175].1975) made this statement, "There is little justification for the concern that the Africanized bees will spread northward and into the United States." He was wrong on that point. Certainly, Morse was a man worthy of respect but even great men make mistakes. On the "dilution is the solution" point he was wrong as well. 

The initial AHB release was already very dilute. Dr. Kerr's 26 queens that escaped were F1 scutellata hybrids already mated to European drones. Their daughters, the first feral generation, were then F2 hybrids with only one African grandparent. This is to say already 75% diluted. Dilution efforts only have a chance to succeed if migration of AHB swarms into a EHB populated area dilutes them but over the thousands of miles from Brazil the dilution theory has logged a dismal track record. One can say at best that it has not yet lived up to its promise. 

It likely never will because apparently there is a gene called "sting-1" that has a dominant African allele which makes individual bees defensive. A few defensive Africanized bees is enough to flood the hive with alarm pheromone and cause a mass attack even in a EHB hive. Diluting has no effect on a single dominant allele nor on a behavior that can be triggered by a few individuals fathered by one drone among the many a queen mated with.

Dilution theory is tenuous at best while quarantine theory has thousands of years of historic validation. To give up the benefits of quarantine against the many challenges facing your bees to engage in a quixotic battle against AHB is unwise. AHB is a rival to EHB rather than a disease and a threat more to people than to the industry. Beekeeping can switch over to AHB if it has to, as it has elsewhere.

But it will not have to because other areas will become the source for good European strains whose queens have not accidentally mated with AHB drones. Either the North, as Karla believes, or some island locations will supplant the South. This will keep the beekeeping industry supplied with EHB colonies while the AHB problem will merely make work for the pest control people. That is, if the beekeeping industry can survive CCD which it will not without quarantine.


http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/genetica/54_genotipo_efecto_conducta.pdf
*Genotypic effects of honey bee (Apis mellifera) defensive behavior...*
Guzmán-Novoa et al.

_"...The defensive behavioral phenotype of AHB is genetically dominant at the colony level because colonies containing hybrids are as defensive as AHB (Guzmán-Novoa et al., 2002)...Guards and individuals that stung were more likely to have African-derived alleles for sting-1 in comparison to random samples of bees (Hunt et al., 1998; Guzmán-Novoa et al., 2002). Detecting gene effects only in one backcross is the pattern of results that would be expected for a dominant trait..."_


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## hoodswoods

sounds similar to fighting a war in Iraq, with Pakistan, Afganistan, and Iran on or near your border.


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## Scrapfe

Eek-a-beek said:


> ... The initial AHB release was ... very dilute. Dr. Kerr's 26 queens that escaped were F1 scutellata hybrids already mated to European drones....


I try not to stick my nose into other countries business but I was under the impression that the 26 Africanized "queens" you renfered to as escaping (in Argentina I think it was in 1956) escaped when a worker not in the loop removed the drone traps or screens from 26 hives with African queens, allowing both Africanized drones and Africanized queens to escape their hives. Eek-a-beek would you care to clarify my impressions on this matter.


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## Scrapfe

Ok, time to talk about what change will look like if there is any change.

The “reciprocal” word has reared its ugly head. What are the hive inspection laws in Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, and Mississippi? I understand the bee inspection law in Georgia is very lax. What is the truth of the matter?

*I HAVE NO ILLUSIONS, UNLIKE SOME HERE I BELIEVE THAT STATE OR GOVERNMENT REGULATION OF ANY INDUSTRY IS THE WORST OF ALL POSSIABLE WORLDS.*

However, if I breed cattle, and only one cow in my herd tests positive for bangs disease (all cattle sold at auction are tested) the state will step in, brand my cattle on the jaw with a "B" and destroy the herd down to and including my last head, furthermore, I am not allowed to keep cattle again for X number of years. The same is true if one horse on my property tests positive for Coggins, all the horses on my property pay the ultimate price. 

Do you wish parity with the beef and dairy industry for your bees? Well there it is right above these words.


The time for debate is over, the time to vote has arrived. How many of you within the sound of this post, who in the future have a hive test positive for AFB, (the bangs disease of the bee world) will gladly burn all your bees and all your bee equipment and keep no more bees ever again for X number of years? :scratch: 

All of those voting for this new rule please signify by saying aye.
All of those opposed to this rule signify using the same sign.

come on now, speak up!


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## fatscher

Scrapfe said:


> How many of you within the sound of this post, who in the future have a hive test positive for AFB, (the bangs disease of the bee world) will gladly burn all your bees and all your bee equipment and keep no more bees ever again for X number of years? :scratch:
> 
> All of those voting for this new rule please signify by saying aye.
> All of those opposed to this rule signify using the same sign.
> 
> come on now, speak up!


Well, not "gladly". But if that's the law then I feel obligated to comply. Virginia, my last domicile, has a similar law--although I don't think you're banned from keeping bees for years afterward, not sure. I knew at least one beekeeper, personally, who burned all his hives, or burned a good sum of 'em due to AFB. I discovered he'd done this when I met him at a local bee supply store in Bealton, VA, and asked him, "Mike, why are you buying all this brand new equipment?"

I've never had AFB, but I'm sure i will before I die, assuming that's 40 years or more off. I was told that some with AFB can spare the bees yet burnthe equipment. If given the choice I'd try to spare my bees.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Eek, You are mostly correct. But those were the second shipment of queens from Africa selected by Dr. Kerr that escaped. The first SELECT shipment was killed with pesticides by an ignorant customs agent. Dr. Kerr imediately went back to Africa and basically got what ever stock he could find. Some of that stock even came from South Africa. The bees were not all "Scuttelata". Back to the Dilution is the Solution--it goes a little deeper than genetics. If your EHB's are able to hold their own in a particular territory and use up the resources. Then AHB's can not get a foothold, then you are diluting their ability to pass on their genetics by taking away their resources and habitat. Which brings us full circle back to the Alabama law and the lack of bees in my state. Now, those viruses that you have a great fear of--You will not stop them as you have already stated. Passing dumb laws to keep out bees on comb will not stop them. The Africanized honey bee has an ally that is a symbiote and evolved together with the bee. It is called the hive beetle. The beetle is a dirty little creature that is chocked full of viruses and yeasts. The AHB has those same microbes. And like most states, you already have the hive beetle!! My ancestors, some which were American Indian, met on the East Coast, some of my European Ancestors. Well, the outcome for my Indian relatives was not too good. My European Ancestors were chocked full of diseases that my native relatives had no immunity to and were wiped out. Thus my European Ancestors had an easy time moving into territory previously held by the Indians. The same is occuring with the meeting of two great populations of honeybees. Our EHBs do not have the natural immunity yet, to combat the viruses that AHB along with it's ally, the beetle, carries. It is just another weapon in the dirty bag of tricks that the African honey bee has in taking over colonies and territory. AHB has been introduced into the USA before. Look at the old journals from the very early part of the 20th century and you will find them being sold to beekeepers. There was a malady called Bee Paralysis that was giving beekeepers fits back in the 40's,50's and 60's. So Steve Taber bred a bee back in the late sixties that was 98 percent AHB to use in combating that problem. The stock was resistant to the paralysis problem. So stock from that program was released to the breeders across the south in the early 70's and paralysis was cured. BUT HELLO!, disappearing disease occured and thousands of EHB colonies were lost. It was attributed to the AHB stock. (YOU can read about this breeding program in some of the old bee source archives) I remember it, because I was a newbee when all this happened. It seems that every time EHB's encounter AHB's, EHB's die out by the droves. Maybe the anomoly called CCD has been around a long time but we have called it by different name in the past. So regulations around the borders of the great state of Massachusetts might keep bees out, and ruin your state's agriculture. It will not keep out the hive beetle, that already carries the same microbes. I Knew Dr. Morse, he was a very knowledgable man on honeybees. When he made the statement "Dilution is the Solution", he was not talking about genetics alone. TK


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## Eek-a-beek

*@Scrafe*
_"...the 26 Africanized "queens" you renfered to as escaping (in Argentina I think it was in 1956) escaped when a worker not in the loop removed the drone traps or screens from 26 hives with African queens, allowing both Africanized drones and Africanized queens to escape their hives..."_

Okay, here is my source.

http://apisenterprises.com/papers_htm/Misc/AHB in the Americas.htm
Citation:
White, W. “The bees from Rio Claro” New Yorker, September 16, 1991.

The passage was:
_"All was progressing well until one day in the fall of 1957 when a visiting beekeeper removed the barriers (queen excluders) keeping the queens from escaping. Twenty-six of the queens accompanied by swarms of workers left these hives and are considered the origin of the so-called Africanized honey bee."_

You are right, my account was incomplete. The swarms mentioned would have presumably included drones. These would have been F1 drones, a 50% dilution, because the African and European chromosomes got shuffled when the F1 queens were produced. Since drones have no father, they carry the filial number of their mother. Breeding with local European queens would yield a F2 generation 75% diluted. The large numbers of drones produced and the ready availability of European queens suggests now to me that most of the Africanized F2 offspring would have come this way, European queens with Africanized drones.

There is a possibility that these F1 drones may have also mated with their sisters, or rather it is likely that F2 queens mated with their brothers. Such inbreeding would yield offspring that were (25% + 50%)/2 = 37% Africanized or 63% diluted. The prevalence of inbreeding in the released lines must be assumed low for the hypothesis "dilution is the solution" to have merit. But, for completeness it should be mentioned. Thank you for bringing these details to my attention. It does not help the dilution case though.

In this source the release was fall 1957 at Rio Claro near Sao Paulo in Brazil.


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## Scrapfe

fatscher said:


> Well, not "gladly". ...I've never had AFB, but I'm sure i will before I die...


I would try to spare my bees as well and I have heard that AFB is not a big issue in the south, but that it is more prevelent the further North you go where bees are forced to stay in the hive for more or most of the winter. I don't know this to be true I only surmized it from what I read. Someone in the know comment on this for us.


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## winevines

Ted Kretschmann said:


> you are probably right. EHB bees and Queens will have to come from somewhere.


I really can not take credit for this idea as my own original one... it has been presented on this forum and in talks by a well respected Northern Queen producer...but it has taken me a while for it to really sink in. Now when I look around at the problems occurring I see how much sense it makes. I think that more of us who are new to the craft need to learn how to make our own queens and definitely make our own splits and nucs- and/or support these efforts in our local and regional areas. There is a huge shift in this direction going on now in our area.


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## winevines

Ted Kretschmann said:


> I think I will retire to a tropical location and set up the "Carribean Queen company" when the time is right.


Met a beekeeper and saw some gentle bees in the US Virgin Islands not long ago.. so when you're ready... just give a shout for the connect.


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## Michael Palmer

Eek-a-beek said:


> The swarms mentioned would have presumably included drones. These would have been F1 drones, a 50% dilution, because the African and European chromosomes got shuffled when the F1 queens were produced....


In the dilution/solution scenario, an important fact is being overlooked. Africans have a trait that negates the dilution. Usurpation is common with Africans. Small swarms enter the apiary and land on the bottom board of a European colony. After a number of days, the swarm creeps into the hive, protecting their African queen. When the European queen is found, the swarm bees kill her and the swarm queen takes over the colony. In this way, African genes are introduced undiluted into the European population. I've read that Arizona apiaries have experienced 20% usurpation during the swarming or absconding times of the year.


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## Eek-a-beek

*@TK* So I take it you have read Jared Diamond's tedious Liberal political rant "Guns, Germs, and Steel." You are applying to bees the thesis he popularized there explaining the role disease plays when one population displaces another. This idea has merit, although not enough to excuse Diamond's unscholarly digressions into poli-babble. Thank you for the suggestion that the concept is relevant here. If this is your own insight then you are quite intelligent.

You go on to say that the Africanized bees have recently been re-united with their age old partner SHB, the small hive beetle. Together they form a powerful tag-team able to spread more successfully, perhaps explaining the recent new encroachments after a lull in AHB advancement. This is also a clever observation and possibly true.

The conclusion you draw is that it is time to pull out all the stops and deal seriously with the threat of a AHB takeover. To that end you invoke Morse and take his stand to mean crowing out AHB with EHB. You suggest that if all the hives through out the country are brought down South to winter in zones, like Alabama, where AHB proliferation is a danger then bee populations could temporarily exceed the carrying capacity of the land. Migrant colonies coming in fully loaded with (HFCS) honey do not go hungry but likewise do not stop foraging. They would therefore starve feral AHB colonies out by simply competing with them for food resources during the winter dearth.

On the face of it this might plausibly work although the numbers would have to be huge and as you indicated earlier the response by commercial beekeepers nationwide to an invitation from Alabama is not likely to be overwhelming. As a half-way measure it would do more harm than good since high migrant populations spread disease and no good comes of it unless numbers get high enough to suppress AHB.

Ignoring practicality, is it wise to try starving AHB out with over crowding? If AHB has any chance to spread into an area then it is because there is adequate winter forage for colonies to survive in spite of their meager stores. If there is winter forage then other indigenous species surely exist that have been depending on it. This would also endanger them. Suppose it does not work; it would be a shame to drive a local sub-species to extinction with a policy that in the end fails to stop AHB.

Small hive beetles mostly die off in the northern winters. After a severe winter, infestations here are due to reintroduction from migratory colonies. Nation wide those migratory beekeepers that winter in the South plague the North. It would be better for the country, and certainly for Massachusetts, if the Feds would mandate that other states have laws like Alabama rather than to encourage more north-south seasonal migration. It would even help if only east-west migration were allowed.

As to the Diamond disease hypothesis, it is probably more correctly applied the other way around. As AHB came northward it finally reached the disease cesspool that is the USA and was stopped. EHB diseases stopped AHB advancement. This is why we had a reprieve. Although AHB is resistant to mites and beetles, it is equally vulnerable to viruses and other pathogens that evolve rapidly to elude host adaptation. Migrant beekeeping in USA created conditions AHB had not encountered before because countries south of the border do not move colonies on such a large scale. Perhaps initially in South or Latin America AHB had disease allies but they spread northward faster and have been here already for decades. New strains having evolved in our local populations combined with other diseases from around the world, places such as Asia whose strains were never seen by African bees, posed a challenge that AHB colonies could not meet.

You could, I suppose, argue that nurturing our disease pool is a defense against AHB with some empirical evidence of success. Hence we should increase the migratory practices that spread disease. The problem with this argument is that EHB losses are already too high and such a policy would make them worse. It is like shooting yourself in the foot to cure a limp. And anyway, how do you know AHB is not actually a good neighbor to EHB when there is a SHB infestation? AHB colonies may attract SHB away from EHB colonies because they emit more alarm pheromone and are therefore more interesting to the beetles.

It is also possible that there never really was a reprieve or lull in AHB encroachment. AHB man be already fully entrenched. SHB makes a colony cranky due to the stench of alarm pheromone from rotting pollen contaminated by a yeast, Kodamaea ohmeri, tracked in by the beetles. Perhaps AHB colonies have been winding down aggressively due to genetic dilution after all, meaning perhaps Morse was right, but once SHB infests a colony they reach again those heights of nastiness that draw attention. When checked for Africanization a hive that was defensive generally checks positive because there are so many such hives but what is really happening is that SHB is making colonies meaner. The meanest ones are Africanized but they would have gone unnoticed if it were not for being SHB infested. This is remotely possible, although admittedly unlikely, but if it is the case then ramping up to battle AHB would be futile. The war is already lost.


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## dixiebooks

Can a poll be added to this thread? I'd like to see where the numbers fall re: those who think the AL law should be repealed vs those who think it should stay as is. I think the consensus (sp?) is that it should be repealed, but by what margin?

BTW, how many of you AL beeks will be in Auburn tomorrow? I plan to go. If anyone wants to meet up in central AL, perhaps at or near exit 234 at the Shelby County Airport, PM me or phone 205.516.9589.

-james


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## Ted Kretschmann

I got you thinking Eek. No it is not a "Diamond" concept but survival of the fittest. You are dealing with the following scourges with AHB--Colony Upsurtion---F1 hybrid, AHB/EHB that is genetically inferior---viruses and yeast associated with AHB and SHB---Unpredictable agressive behavior--faster emergence times from egg to adult---different drone flight times---Queen preference for AHB drones and the last but most overlooked problem. The intercast upsurption problem. The intercaste have already been spread nationwide. So, Eek The war is already as you said "lost" so why would you want to fester the wounds by federal enforcement of Alabama type laws on other states??? TK


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## Eek-a-beek

_So, Eek The war is already as you said "lost" so why would you want to fester the wounds by federal enforcement of Alabama type laws on other states???_

That was a hypothetical, _"remotely possible, although admittedly unlikely, but *if* it is the case then ramping up to battle AHB would be futile. The war is already lost."_ The war in question being that against AHB becoming established throughout the South, your war. The war you would recruit migratory beekeepers for, a tactic that would require the Comb Law be repealed. This being your justification for a change that you believe would benefit you and others like yourself in the state of Alabama. But it does not seem likely to me that AHB has become entrenched unnoticed and that only now are SHB infestations bringing AHB colonies to our attention. I only raised that as a possibility that should be ruled out before unsheathing your sword.

But, let me take your question in a more general sense so that I can address what seems to be a common viewpoint. CCD is already here, mites and beetles are already here, numerous viruses are already here so what is the point of imposing quarantine? Is that not locking the barn after the horse has been stolen?

No. Things can always get worse. Viruses mutate and adapt as do bacteria and parasites. When that happens a lot can be gained by containing the new outbreak in a limited region. Quarantine always helps and it is the main line of defense against viruses, even during or especially during the height of an outbreak. Furthermore, as the testing in Massachusetts showed, not all viruses known to afflict bees are epidemic in the migratory population. This means that a lot is to be gained by a quarantine that stops them from becoming so. Since beekeepers are on the ropes already, fending off even one punch can keep them on their feet.

I sincerely believe that we are just now seeing the beginning of the CCD problem which is about to get much worse. It is actually in part due to Free Trade treaties that are fairly recent and which opened the country to infestations of all sorts, not just of bees. But also it is due to migratory beekeeping which is relatively new. Both assume diseases can be ignored which is fallacious. It takes time for a mistake like that to bear its rotten fruit. The harvest is starting now. I think disease is too abstract an idea for most people to take seriously because humanity seems to chronically ignore its implications. If we ignore reality, though, in the end it bites us. I believe CCD will escalate until beekeeping becomes economically irrelevant to agriculture and honey a rare curiosity of interest primarily to Sunday School teachers wanting to show the kids what honey meant as in "Land of milk and honey." Quarantine is the only thing that has a chance stop the train before it derails, which is why I am advocating it. The Alabama Comb Law is a quarantine law which is why I am a fan of it.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Eek, I am glad you are such an ardent supporter of our bee laws in Alabama! I watched a very proud industry die due to fact that we are cut off from the mainstream of beekeeping economics. I am the last man standing!!!! Sure, Eek You will take care of ALL your beekeeping problems through a closed border state. Yes, we do not have any problems any more because we do not have any bees left!! I have very few hives beetles, very low AFB, no nosema and very low mite infestations because I have no neighbors. AND NO WAY TO REPLACE BEES QUICKLY WHEN THEY DIE OFF! There are no package and queen breeders left. You can not just go out and buy bees in the states around you due to the "no comb law". Package bees--forget it, the georgia package producers have old line customers that book 8 months in advance.You can not buy supers of comb when the honey flow is hot, heavy and you really need them-no comb law. And there are no neighbors to buy them from.Because you are in a economic beekeeping backwater called Alabama, your monetary resources are not as great as your beekeeping buddies in the states around you. Your equipment cost thus are greater then in surrounding states because you are forced to buy new--no comb law. How many hives you have?? I bet you do not own many and do not understand the economics of running a commercial operation. I have 1800. Tell you what Eek, before you put your head in a hangmans noose, you are more than welcome to come to Alabama and experience what it is like to keep bees in a extremely regulated state like Alabama. I LIVE HERE, you have no idea what it is like to put up with the crap of that horrible antiquated law that has outlived its usefulness and needs to be repealed. This year only 400 beekeepers registered colonies of bees in the State of Alabama. Eek do know how many square miles this state is??? So how many beekeepers and beehives is that to the square mile, section, township and range. Do the math!! Go ahead and KILL your state's [email protected]! WALK A MILE IN MY SHOES. TED KRETSCHMANN PS Eek we allow bees into the State of Alabama under strict compliance to pollinate the states crops--because we do not have any bees.


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## Eek-a-beek

Okay, so I looked it up for comparison and although these numbers are from a few years ago, the states probably still rank in a similar order. I know you said there are only 8K colonies left of the 13.4K listed but I expect counts are down nationwide. Farm acres are likely nearly the same.

http://www.agcensus.usda.gov/Public...,_Chapter_2_US_State_Level/st99_2_021_021.pdf

http://www.agcensus.usda.gov/Public...,_Chapter_2_US_State_Level/st99_2_008_008.pdf

Alabama: 13,464/9,033,537 = 0.00149 hives per acre or 671 acres per hive
Massachusetts: 8,255/517,879 = 0.0159 hives per acre or 63 acres per hive

So we have about ten times as many hives per acre of farmland compared to you. That is remarkable. However, in total hive counts Alabama is comparable to Tennessee and many states have hive counts around that number.

I want you to know that I have a lot of respect for you for being the last man standing. It takes good judgement to always be the one who did not make a mistake. It also takes spirit not to get discouraged and give up when setbacks happen; you mentioned three crashes I think. I can understand each of the issues you outlined and I can imagine the trouble they are for you. I feel bad that you are so obviously exasperated by the situation in your state. Clearly it is holding you back and a man like you deserves more success than you could have hoped for in Alabama. I am surprised you stayed all these years.

But, stay for a while more. Mark my words; you will have the last laugh. These laws that you hate and which I am a fan of will save you in the end. Alabama will be less hard hit by the problems that plague the rest of the nation and in the end Alabama will be a success story of beekeeping. When that happens you personally will be a super star. Be patient.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Time will tell, Eek. TK


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## fatscher

Ted Kretschmann said:


> ...Package bees--forget it, the georgia package producers have old line customers that book 8 months in advance...


Ted, did you notice Dennis dodged my question today at the symposium? "What percentage of Alabama's orders for packages come from Georgia and are plans being made to anticipate those packages having Africanized bees?




Ted Kretschmann said:


> ...I watched a very proud industry die due to fact that we are cut off from the mainstream of beekeeping economics. I am the last man standing!!!! ...we do not have any problems any more because we do not have any ...bees left!! ...I have ...NO WAY TO REPLACE BEES QUICKLY WHEN THEY DIE OFF! There are no package and queen breeders left. You can not just go out and buy bees in the states around you due to the "no comb law". ....you are more than welcome to come to Alabama and experience what it is like to keep bees in a extremely regulated state like Alabama. I LIVE HERE, you have no idea what it is like to put up with the ...horrible antiquated law that has outlived its usefulness and needs to be repealed. ...WALK A MILE IN MY SHOES.



Ted, thanks for showing me around today. I don't know how I can help but I know of 3 board of directors who think like you, me and markmaster. There is a growing movement to bring this law out of the 13th century and modify it. I hope you'll join me in the federation, and live the Russian proverb!


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## fatscher

Eek-a-beek said:


> ... Be patient.


:s

The fact he's stuck it out all these years, and you think you need to add that?

Um, ok.:scratch:


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## markmaster

fatscher said:


> Ted, thanks for showing me around today. I don't know how I can help but I know of 3 board of directors who think like you, me and markmaster. There is a growing movement to bring this law out of the 13th century and modify it. I hope you'll join me in the federation, and live the Russian proverb!


Dang, where were you? I saw Ted off and on during the day, but didn't get to speak with you (although I did hear your question to Barclift).


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## Ted Kretschmann

Two of my wives were either russian lineage or russian. Strict compliance is the answer to the law. I have already proved it works. I pollinated four years running in California. I participated in the nat'l disease and pest survey and much to the chagrin of the powers that bee, I have some of the cleanest bees in the State. Strict Compliance WORKS! So let us gear up for one hell of a fight that is coming, rewrite this antiquated law and bring the law and Alabama into the twenty first century. The other side wants to put a fifteen thousand dollar fine in the law, if you are caught bringing bees on comb into the state. What sort of stupidity is that ??? I learned that yesterday. God, they are so ignorant to the fact that they are cutting their own throats. They will NOT be able to purchase package bees one day from their favorite source-Georgia. They need to be thinking ahead to the future what if's. TK


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## dixiebooks

How many wives do you have, Ted? LOL It was good meeting you at the symposium yesterday. -James (in Montevallo)


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## Ted Kretschmann

DB, let me clarify....My first wife was of russian/spanish bloodline. I met her while I was in the Army. I was married in a catholic church in San Marcos. I was married two years to her. Two things happened that broke up the marriage. One she was allergice to bees and two, as an army reservist I was activated to the first gulf war. I was in the medical corp and worked in surgery. She got tired of waiting for me to come home and went home. I do not blame her. Wife number two was named Alisha. She was a local girl and a good girl. It was like over night, one day she could not open jar lids and pop bottles. She went to the doctor and found out she had an acute form of muscular dystrophy. We buried her two years ago. That is all I have to say about that. Wife number three was a girl I met in the Ukraine while working with some of the Beekeepers over there. I married Swetlana in the city of Zaparozhae. My dad died while I was over there and I did not know it but he knew about the marriage and passed happy. The visa process to get her here took too long. The immigration policy of this nation is screwed up. Even though I was back and forth, she and I finally gave up. It would have been better if I had flown into Mexico and swam the Rio Grande with her. She had the marriage annulled. That was two years ago. So while I am a very successful beekeeper, I am not successful on the personal level. Life is not always a bed of roses. You asked, now you know. TK


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## Ted Kretschmann

Let me clarify. Alisha decided to divorce me two years before she passed. We were friends at the end. TED


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## dixiebooks

Sorry, Ted. Goes to show one should never assume what you are reading is a typo (wives - hives) and that when one speaks of "russians" that the reference is to honeybees. :doh: Sounds like you were blessed despite the difficulties. Will be in touch soon. -james


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## Ted Kretschmann

DB thanks, but that is life--change for the better or worse. I talked to the "Godfather" of beekeeping a few hours ago. He is Thomas Norman, the man that trained me in commercial beekeeping. He also is of the opinion that an option to bring in nucs and colonies of EHB from the NORTH needs to be on the table in Alabama to help dilute the African Bee. He believes that the sale of package bees from ANY state that has AHB needs to be outlawed. His thinking--why spread the pest any faster than natural migration. And a few more EHBs will help in the state. But they have to come in By Strict Compliance........Sadly, he believes that by the time the powers that bee in the state realize this, we will be up to our eyeballs in AHB and the time to act will have past. His brother Edward quit last year and went into another business that is succesful. So he asked me if were time for "us" to quit and follow his brothers lead. If that happens, and my bees are sold out of state. Where will the beekeepers in Alabama, get their bees. If the flow of Georgia bees is cut off, then where?? I think the law will have to change!!! TK


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## markmaster

I think you and Norman are right, Ted ... and I think it's up to us - in the here and now - to get politically active and wok to get this thing changed -- even if that means we have to get "inside the system" to do that. I started my thinking on this issue as a conservative, asking "can we live with this law; can we work around it; can we convince the powers-that-be to revise it ..." After reading this thread, talking with you, fatscher, and others (including many of those in favor of keeping the law "as is"), I am now of the mind that there are only a couple of ways to bring some reasonable strategy to this war against AHB: either the State should help finance a whole bunch of new, certified, producers of packages and nucs OR the current "no-comb law" needs to be re-written in order to allow - under strict compliance (so that the regulatory agencies have something to do besides watch AHB slowly infiltrate our state) - the importation of nucs from AHB-free states. We can deal with mites and SHB - we have to do that now - but AHB is scaring the piss out of the growing number of hobbyist beekeepers, whose help in increasing the numbers of hives, and thus bees, we are going to need.


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## fatscher

markmaster said:


> ...I think it's up to us - in the here and now - to get politically active and work to get this thing changed -- even if that means we have to get "inside the system" to do that.


Lloyd, I just joined the Alabama farmers federation, (bee and honey commodity) this past week. Please join me. They have been in favor of no-comb, but that's because they are infiltrated with too many of those who don't feel the pain like TK feels. It's time to TAKE back ALFA. As the Russians say, "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." I plan to attend every ALFA honey commodity meeting I can, and turn that organization into a P.A.C. that does right in Montgomery, instead of posturing this great state into a honeybee desert. ALFA thinks they're doing the right thing, but they're slowly killing businesses like TK's, and that is horrible economic planning on Ala's part.




markmaster said:


> ... get politically active... ...the current "no-comb law" needs to be re-written in order to allow - under strict compliance (so that the regulatory agencies have something to do besides watch AHB slowly infiltrate our state)


As TK says, we can amend the law to allow for diversity from Northern sources. The tide (pardon the pun) is turning...it used to be that southern bees ruled, but now, it's stock from the north that will save the industry, I do believe.

Everyone, if you agree that the no-comb law needs to be amended please let Mr. Bud Adamson, state chair of the honey commodity know where you stand. He is the leading lobbyist in this state in favor of the law. With AHB on Alabama's doorstep, and, soon, no way to get European bees from out of state, we cannot wait until it's too late. (Eventually Georgia packages will become Africanized, so that's not going to be a good source) Please, for the sake of the future human lives to be spared, we must do this. Keeping the law, as is, lies in a misguided passion on the way beekeeping USED to be. The law worked years ago, but now it is shackling us. Mr. Adamson can be reached at: (800) 392-5705, ext. 4216
or [email protected]

I've sent e-mails pleading for a consideration to change, and I've gotten ugly responses from the Madison County commodity chairman "to get my facts straight before I go on a rant..." People, this is serious, I beg the cool, rational heads to please act. This is not just an Alabama issue when AHB gets here, it's a human life issue.

http://www.alfafarmers.org/commodities/bee_honey.phtml

One of their goals for the year is to keep no-comb law in effect, scroll down and you'll see it.


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## okaive

After reading all 9'pages, this is making me wonder if I want to get into beek as a hobby. Kinda of a scare tactic here.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Okaive, nobody is trying to scare you out of the best invocation and advocation that there is---BEEKEEPING. In todays modern world of beekeeping, the best beekeepers are very INFORMED beekeepers. Not closed minded ones. So what I want you to do, is attend meetings, read the trade magazines-gleanings, ABJ and speedy bee. Find somebody that has a whole LOT of beehives with many years experience and is welling to take you under their wing and train you. It takes about seven years for a new beekeeper to really start to grasp the inner workings of a LIVE beehive. I started at 10 years of age. It is a lot of hard work but rewarding. There will be trying times but do not ever give up. Pick yourself up, look upward and onward. I have survived in the 39 years of beekeeping, all the plauges and pestilence of biblical proportions that have hit my operation. I will survive AHB also. SO STAY INFORMED, there are a whole lot of very smart people on bee source that will help you. They only dumb question is one not asked. I did not know how many beehives to the acre Alabama had but Ole Eek knew. So ask and learn, Newbee, I wish upon you many years of full honey supers and successful beekeeping TK


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## fatscher

okaive said:


> Kinda of a scare tactic here.


okaive, I hope nothing I stated has given you that impression. If so, then I'm sincerely sorry, and can only hope you will keep bees, despite the scare.

The bees need ya, so pls press on, if you were thinking of doing it. We need more and more and more beekeepers everywhere. Without you we're one less beekeeper...it's that important.


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## okaive

I still plan on going ahead and getting two hives this year to start on. One in my yard and another 2 miles away at a friends yard (to see if I want the hassle of traveling). 

It's just all the AFB, viruses and etc and then saying "all is going to die" talk is kinda wanting to throw your hands up and think "why even consider spending the money on them".

I kinda posted sarcastically, but a small part makes a new beek wonder.


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## Eek-a-beek

> Two of my wives were either russian lineage or russian. Strict compliance is the answer to the law.
> 
> The visa process to get her here took too long...she and I finally gave up. It would have been better if I had flown into Mexico and swam the Rio Grande with her.


:scratch:

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/cerc/danoff-burg/invasion_bio/inv_spp_summ/Apis_mellifera_scutellata.htm
_"Pollination of crops can continue even if an area has been fully colonized by Africanized bees...Africanized honeybees are better pollinators than European honeybees because they emphasize brood rearing and colony growth instead of honey production. The shift in resource management allows Africanized honeybees to forage more for pollen than European bees. Therefore, Africanized bees can be regarded as superior pollinators. In Sinaloa Mexico, Africanized honeybees have invaded the area but have not caused any problems in crop harvests and production."_

http://www.worldconferenceonorganicbeekeeping.com/presents/id:63/3.-ORGANIC-BEEKEEPING-IN-MEXICO.htm
_Mexico ranks sixth in the world in honey production (57,000 t) and third as an exporter (25,000 t).Two conditions allow Mexico to possess an enormous potential for organic honey production. First, the beekeeping with Africanized honeybees: despite the problems derived from their defensiveness, these bees have great qualities in terms of natural defences against main diseases, including Varroa, so that beekeeping can be realized almost without the use of medicines, contrary to beekeeping with European bees._

http://bvio.com/index.php/Africanized_bee
_"Queen management in africanized bee areas
In Mexico, where africanized bees are well established, pollination beekeepers have found that a purchased and pre-bred non-africanized queen may be used to locally create a first generation of virgin queens that are then bred in an uncontrolled fashion with the local wild africanized drones. These first generation africanized queens produce worker bees that are manageable, not exhibiting the intense and massive defense reactions of subseqent generations. This offers a relatively economical method of safe local beekeeping under what would otherwise lead to hazardous conditions."_

http://www.aboutsociology.com/sociology/Africanized_bee
_"Not all Africanized hives are defensive; some are quite gentle, which gives a beginning point for beekeepers to breed a gentler stock. This has been done in Brazil, where bee incidents are much less common than during the first wave of the Africanized bees' colonization. Now that the Africanized bee has been gentled, it is considered the bee of choice for beekeeping in Brazil. It is better adapted to the tropics and so is healthier and more industrious than European bees. Note that a. m. scutellata in South Africa is the same species as the Tanzanian bee and yet is very manageable, being kept by beekeepers without extraordinary precautions."_

http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/africanized_bee_selection.htm
_"...few people know about POSITIVE QUALITIES of these bees, for example, their high levels of honey productivity and resistance to illnesses, and IMMENSE POSIBILITIES FOR their SELECTION. Octavio Jaramillo, Mexican biologist, has been trying to probe these "POSITIVE QUALITIES " in his research on the ABs since 1990... In his research, Mr. Jaramillo has selected a few family lines of ABs with high level of tameness, high resistance to illnesses and parasites, and high level of honey productivity."_


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## Ted Kretschmann

Good to hear from you Eek. It took how many years for the Brazilian beekeeping industry to come back??? I know the answer and can say that I will be very old and wondering were my ensure is when the industry comes back in the Southeastern USA. Yes, I know of Mr. Jarimillo. This is all true, not all AHB are defensive, (monticola is an African HB and crossed into the Buckfast bee), and if Dr. Kerr had not had his first shipment of bees killed in customs, as those were the very best Africa had to offer, we would all be singing the praises of AHB. In some respects Dr.Kerr succeeded in breeding the superiour bee he set out to breed. Sadly it was not in the controlled method as he wanted. It has been proven that the F1 cross hybrid is a genetically weak hybrid and not a bee that you would want around. AHB collapsed to Varroa Predation in Texas after it crossed the Rio Grande and thus several years respite was gained before the bee started to spread again. So it is not the Super bee when it comes to disease. What also slowed the bee moving east was the "rain shadow" of 50 plus inches a year that the bee of the Savannahs of Africa was not used to dealing with. It has had to adapt. What you have posted is true but it takes too many years for these adjustments to be made, years we do not have. Alabama, as you have stated only has 1 colony to 671 acres of land. And if you take the account that 1/4 of those bees I own and are concentrated in certain areas, then ratio of hive to acre is even lower. One day we will bring in bees from the Northern USA on comb to bred a better bee in Alabama once we are up to our eyeballs in AHB. It is an ecological void here just waiting to be filled. Morse is right. Eek, I have worked AHB, they are just down right unpredictable. Some days you can work them in shortsleeves. Some days if they had been disturbed or the humidity really high, Katy bar the door. Also My mother was married for Fifteen years to a very famous bee researcher and thus they made many a trip to Mexico to work with and study AHB. So I know the timeline and the research on AHB. TK


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## Eek-a-beek

> It took how many years for the Brazilian beekeeping industry to come back??? I know the answer and can say that I will be very old and wondering were my ensure is when the industry comes back in the Southeastern USA.


No need to reinvent the wheel. The Brazilians have done the work, just import their gentled AHB breed and stock your apiaries with it. That will stop the spread of the nasty strains and the South will rise again, long before you are sipping Ensure ****tails.


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## fatscher

okaive said:


> (to see if I want the hassle of traveling).


Uhhh, if you have a heart and it pumps blood, you will be surely addicted to your girls 2 miles away and thus you will discover extremely few hassles with traveling.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Great Idea! With one major set of problems--USDA and PUBLIC PERCEPTION and Alabama's stringant laws. .No we will have to reinvent the wheel, change the laws in my state for importation of EHB on comb from the North under strict compliance. Eek, if I can not bring bees in on comb or used beekeeping equipment, do you think my state is going to allow the importation of a gentled AHB even if the Feds say yes---NOT. Eek go and get you a copy of Alabama bee law and really study it. TK


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## Eek-a-beek

@TK
As to Alabama's stringent laws, lets have a look at them:
http://law.onecle.com/alabama/agriculture/chapter14.html
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/alcode/2/14/2-14-9

_*Section 2-14-2 - Purpose of chapter.*
The purpose of this chapter is to prevent the introduction into and dissemination within this state of contagious and infectious diseases of honeybees by providing for the registration, inspection and control of honeybees and apiaries, which activity is hereby found and declared by the Legislature to promote agriculture in the State of Alabama._

Since the intent of the law is to protect agriculture, not the convenience of beekeepers nor the production of honey, and since AHB colonies are better pollinators, there is nothing in the Alabama laws of Title 2 Section 14 that would prevent their importation. Africanization is not due to a contagious or infectious disease. Bees of any particular strain are not mentioned. The only stipulation is that the hives from which queens are imported must be officially inspected and deemed disease free. If inspectors refuse to go to Brazil then importation into another state first would satisfy them; there is no obligation in these laws for the inspector to confirm the lineage of the bees being inspected. Provided they are a gentled strain, the Alabama inspector would have no reason to take note.

As to the USDA, it should go through them anyway since they are heavily involved in breeding bees for pollination. Considering their numerous breeding programs and the explicit mention the project names make to breeding for disease resistance and pollination availability, their scientists must be considering Brazilian bee lines for their hybridization potential. Such bees are disease resistant and prolific pollinators. They probably are already in the country in the care of a USDA scientist.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/main/site_main.htm?modecode=64-13-30-00

But, you could always do a Dr. Kerr, with his same 'if at first...' approach. Since AHB colonies are already in your state, you must be requeening some hives each year because of it. If you had a tame AHB strain then you could just say it turned up one day and you propagated it. In fact, if one does turn up one day you ought to do just that. It might, there are people going back and forth to Brazil all the time and some are beekeepers and some smuggle stuff back. Someone afflicted by AHB swarms may take matters into his own hands and try to dilute the gene pool by releasing a tamed strain. Then, of course, there is the Mexican border. If a wife could be smuggled in then a wife with a pocketful of queen bees would be just as easy. I am sure Mr. Jarimillo could help you secure a good strain. He must have the contacts for importing Brazilians but he may already have improved on them and have something better for you.

As to public perception, it was public support for the Comb Law that put it in place. If you really thought public perception to be a factor then you would not be trying to overthrow it. But that has me thinking again about what you are doing, playing to public hysteria about AHB in an attempt to rally support to overthrow the Comb Law. Why are you doing that? You have worked with AHB colonies and you know that there is no real problem with them, although you prefer EHB. You concede also that even if the Comb Law is repealed it is unlikely that there will be a "tidal wave" of commercial beekeepers and so it is probably impossible to stop AHB spread this way. I do not get it, what do you gain?

_"I have survived because I am economically sustained by out of state dollars.----- I am a PROUD member of Souix Honey." _

They asked you to help repeal the law, right? I can see why Souix Honey executives consider it inconvenient for moving their trucks around to have a stretch of I-10 shut down. I can see why they might want to open up new areas for wintering colonies. I can see they might make donations to local political campaigns and request that their in state affiliates support more convenient legislation. It is hard to think of a man of your stature as a corporate hack but we all have to do what we have to do. Is that it? 

When I go through the motivations you mentioned, they do not make any sense:

_"That law cut the other commercial producers off from out of state opportunities economically and KILLED them."_

Out of state opportunities were always available, Alabama beekeepers just can not return with their hives for wintering after going out of state. Wintering elsewhere should be no problem because commercial beekeepers around the country are going out of business and therefore abandoning their wintering locations. There must be plenty of choices available for that option. But the beekeeping industry is losing hives at a precipitous rate so any Alabama beekeeper who has hives that he can put on trucks and drive out of the state can find someone to buy them after they have made the pollination rounds. Commercial beekeepers across the country are hurting for replacements. Why bring colonies back into the state of Alabama after they have been exposed to diseases? Just sell them. This can not be what 'killed' commercial producers; it was instead the usual suspects, the ones the Comb Law helps reduce the lethality of.

_"NO WAY TO REPLACE BEES QUICKLY WHEN THEY DIE OFF! There are no package and queen breeders left. You can not just go out and buy bees in the states around you due to the "no comb law". Package bees--forget it, the georgia package producers have old line customers that book 8 months in advance"
_
If you were producing packages and queens then that would be a big part of the Alabama beekeeping industry. If you were doing so then you would not want to buy them from other people. Why are you not producing packages and queens yourself? The demand is huge and the supply is weak. Nobody can quickly replace bees when they die off. The "no comb law" in Alabama is not the reason you can not buy bees. The lack of replacement bees is a chronic problem nationwide due to the fact that bees are dying off everywhere. If all states had such a law then the afflictions of bees would be reduced to the point where the supply would be adequate. The problem is that other states are not as pro-active as Alabama but are instead cluelessly lagging behind in adapting to the modern reality of epidemic diseases. The Feds should step in and impose quarantine laws even stricter than the Comb Law, selling packages and queens out of state should be illegal as well.

_"You can not buy supers of comb when the honey flow is hot, heavy and you really need them-no comb law. And there are no neighbors to buy them from."_

But what are you talking about? In 2007 there were 13.4K hives in Alabama but today you say there are 8K. This means about 5.4K hives were decommissioned in three years, about 1.8K hives per year. That is equal to your whole inventory every year. You must be able to buy enough of these up to meet your needs. How can you say there are no supers of comb available in Alabama? That is just not plausible.

_"Because you are in a economic beekeeping backwater called Alabama, your monetary resources are not as great as your beekeeping buddies in the states around you."_

The grass is always greener. Hey, those guys are going out of business left and right, dropping like flies so to speak. The monetary resources of men going out of business can not be greater than those who are muddling through. You are muddling through. And come on now, commercial enterprises do everything on loans anyway. The whole country in this recession is hurting for credit. No businesses have adequate access to monetary resources so why would you expect a marginal business like beekeeping to fair any better? If your beekeeping buddies are bragging about the great resources they have at their disposal then I am sure that after a couple of beers you can come up with a better Texas Tall Tale to do them one up.

_"Your equipment cost thus are greater then in surrounding states because you are forced to buy new--no comb law."_

Buying used equipment from out of state only makes sense after you have bought everything in the state. Are you really doubling your hives every year? But anyway, used hives are a risky business. Why did they become available; did the colony that used them before die? If so, from what? New equipment is best in these times. Lusting after the huge supply of abandoned hives out there around the country is a fool's delusion. You are better off without them. Bringing dead hives into the state of Alabama is not good for you nor for the other 400 beekeepers around you.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Eek, Leave Souix Honey out of this. The do not become politically embroiled in State politics in any state. I am a PROUD member of Souix because they gave me an oppurtunity in business to produce honey for them. And as a co-op member I have survived where all other commercial beekeepers in the state of Alabama, have failed. So when it comes to Souix Honey--BEE QUIET!!! You do not know anything about what you are talking about. If the dialogue that you and I have going back in forth makes people think outside of the box, then that is great. If it makes people realize that there might be another way of doing things--so bee it. I have not all the answers but I do know that what we have now in Alabama, "aint" working. It seems from what you say for the rest of the nation it "aint" working also. Change is a way of life, whether it is for good or bad. TK


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## Rohe Bee Ranch

From what I have seen in my area of Alabama, I don't have a problem with the law and a lot of the beekeepers in this area (those that I have gotten to know over the last 10 years) don't have a problem with it either. I'm not sure if the law is really valid anymore with all the pests and problems bees have now days in Alabama, but if it helps keep things from getting worse then it will probably stay a law for awhile longer.

I would like to see the State laws preventing the making of Mead removed however.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Rohe, the law served it purpose and with the death of the commercial industry in the state, out lived the reason of its purpose. It was written and created by commercial beekeepers to protect COMMERCIAL beekeeping not hobbyist beekeeping. Sadly this law, will in the future kill that segment of beekeeping in the state also. READ through the entire thread, you will learn why Alabama has NO viable large Commercail beekeepers left other that myself. The law needs to be reviewed, revised, rewritten and brought into the twenty first century. IN other words OVERHAUL IT>TED KRETSCHMANN, ALABAMA BEE COMPANY I am surprised at the interest this thread has generated across the nation.


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## Rohe Bee Ranch

Ted, I read the thread and stand by my post. It is a surprise however that the commercial beekeeping had died in Alabama. What data describes this? Beekeeping was cut over 50% in AL during the 80's and never recovered. What has changed since then in the commercial world here? Also there have been commercial beekeepers in AL that have gotten permission to transport their hives for pollination in California and bring them back to Alabama. I'm sure they brought back a healthy supply of resistant mites with them as well. Sounds like your beef is with the State Agriculture dept and would serve you best if taken up there instead of getting frustrated by the out of state responses posted here. I'm not trying to be confrontational, it just sounds like you are looking for a result here that you just will not get. I would recommend that you get the AL Bee lab folks on your side and then go the political route to get what you are looking for. Just remember to choose wisely. If the law is changed and things go really bad and your name is associated with it you could be an unpopular person...or it may turn out to be a good thing and you could be a hero. Life is funny that way.

I would just like to make some MEAD.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Sir, I am the guy that has pollenated Almonds in California. And my bees have been tested by the USDA this year and we had only .93 mites to the hundred bees. REAL low, so resistant mites is not the problem. Commerical beekeeping here in Alabama was cut off economically from the rest of the nation. Thus when the package industry died in the State, commerical beekeeping died. Alabama used to ship a lot packages to Canada. That lose was never economically replaced. AS for being unpopular person, I am the last large commercial beekeeper in the State of Alabama. That already makes me unpopular for some bizzare reason among hobby beekeepers in this state anyway. Time and future problems to come will change this law.


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## Rohe Bee Ranch

Well if you have already been able to take your bees out of the state and bring them back, I don't understand what the issue is then. Sounds like the no-comb law is not an issue for you then. Sorry, I'm confused about what this thread was about. Was there a problem with the law as it applied to you or were you trying to get more commercial beekeeping going in Alabama? As for commercial beekeepers being unpopular just because they are commercial beekeepers, I know a few in my area and they are quite helpful to all beekeepers here. I don't have a problem with commercial or hobby beekeepers. To me it's just a matter of scale. We all are doing the same thing.


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## Ted Kretschmann

The thread was started because several citizens of this state of ours, own land, pay taxes, have done their required six month residency requirements BUT can not bring in their bees from the states where they originally lived. I did not start this thread but became aware of it because I was coming up in the conversation. No, if I want to go out and pollenate crops, I can go under strict compliance. These other citizens should be allowed to bring their bees home under the same strict compliance. We allow bees into Alabama from Mississippi and Florida to pollinate cucumber and watermelons. Why cant we allow these new Alabamians to bring their livestock home??? Thus the law is antiquated, discriminatory, and needs to be brought into the 21st century. We need more bees. That is the short and long of it. There are only 4000 registered colonies of bees in the State at this time. You can ask John Mynard this and he will tell you the same figures. If that is the case, we do not have a viable industry. Truth hurts doesnt it?? TK


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## Rohe Bee Ranch

I believe that laws should be applied evenly across the board. If others are allowed to bring bees into and out of this state (via special permission or a loop hole in the law or via whatever mechanism, whether they are from here or not, then everyone should be allowed to do this. If some official has allowed this to happen in violation of the State Law then that official should be punished. I'm not arguing the law's content. It's there and I follow it. If it needs to be changed then arguments and evidence, both pro and con, should be presented to the proper folks and hopefully things would be adjusted based on new data. I can feel and understand peoples frustrations with certain laws at times but such is the way of our country. Not everything is perfect, but it can be changed...at least so far it can be.

There is no reason to get nasty Ted. Like you, I was just voicing an opinion. The law is what it is right now. Obviously you and others have more at stake in this law than I do. I wasn't trying to shoot anyone down or trying to be rude. I'll follow this law and if it is changed or opened up for a debate at some time in the future I may voice my opinion again. If this law ever does come up for debate/change I really hope that the folks that want it changed provide logical arguments and supporting data, presented in such a manner that makes sense. So the rest of the State has a clear understanding of what the situation is and how this law affects beekeeping in Alabama.

Best of luck and please let me know if this law is ever reviewed. I'll bring it up with John if I get a chance this Thursday at our association's meeting.


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## davejw

Howdy "Fatscher"!
I say keep poutin! someone will eventually hear you and maybe they'll see the light.
If you aren't able to move those hives to your land soon I know a place a bit north of there in Northern VA. that would LOVE to take them


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## fatscher

Rohe Bee Ranch said:


> Ted, I read the thread and stand by my post. It is a surprise however that the commercial beekeeping had died in Alabama. What data describes this?



Hey Dan, I'm glad you looked into this. This law seriously affects me, personally and, as such, I'm on the warpath to try to repeal it. Not only does pretty much everyone ignore this law and drives bees over the state line everyday, but as an Alabama voting citizen (I have a Bama drivers license, not a Tenn one) I feel the right to freely speak out on my citizen right to declare the law challengable. I am slowly (like a glacier) mobilizing support (among guys like Ted) to repeal, or at least modify the law to allow bees on comb into the state (one proposal would be to allow nucs or small quantites of hives in while screening out disease ridden pollinators bringing colonies back from the Calif almonds...but I digress).

Why would I do such a thing...go bull-in-the-china-shoppin' on sweet home Alabama legislation, you might ask? Well, this law creates a huge hardship for me because I literally have one leg in Tennessee and the other in Alabama. Bill Mullins tells me if I had only expressed to John Minyard (north inspector) the hardship I'm having driving 100 miles just to tend my bees each week, they woulda let my hives in conditionally. 

Not so fast! I told Bill that was not true. John Minyard told me the law applied to little ole me like it applies to big guys like Ted K. John wouldn't budge and wouldn't listen to my plea. So Alabama is throwing out the baby with the bathwater on this one by targeting little bitty guys like me.

I'm a border-crossing ridge-runnin ******* fool who lives in TenneBama. My state flag is the red saltire overlaid over the tri-star of the Vol State. If I could redraw borders I would create the 51st state bounded on the south by the Tenn River, on the north by the latitude of the northern-most Lincoln county border and I would name this new state "TennBama." I'm the consummate Tennebamian. All this ridiculous prose to passionately illustrate I have 50% Tenn, 50% Alabama leanings. I cross pollinate with Tennessee from my home in Huntsville every 3 or 4 days. I drive up work my bees spending a full day on a Saturday, neglecting my yard chores to the chagrin of my lovely bride.

But besides being a hardship on me... ...sigh... I know, I know...it's not always all about ME doh... it has destroyed commercial beekeeping in this state, from what I've learned. From my research of Alabama beekeeping history, Alabama was once a PROUD beekeeping son...we were once a gleaming crown jewel in the tiara of Southern Beekeeping package production. You do know the slogan of the ABA, don't you? ABA: "Queens, Package Bees, Honey". To have the words package bees in our state logo/slogan is...(pls don't be offended when I say this)...is a PATHETIC joke. There are no ALABAMA packages being sold any more...ok maybe one supplier down in Cottonwood (MillieBee), AL but he has yards in Florida too, and he lives in Florida, so his taxes go to Rick Scott in Tallahassee.

Alabama is a far cry from the package producer that Georgia is today, but at one time they were as big as Georgia, I'm told.

Ted Kretschmann, by the way, is the state's largest commercial beekeeper. State statistics out of Dennis Barclift's (inspector) office say that there are 4,000 hives registered in Alabama. Ted personally owns 2,000 of those. I'm about to buy 4 colonies instate and start my Alabama beeyard this spring.

But think about that stat for a sec. Alabama only has 4,000 colonies??? I think Iceland, Alaska, and maybe the moon have fewer colonies than that. To me that's just shameful. And it makes me ask WHY??? How did that happen?? Guys like Ted say it happened in large part to the no comb law. I think he's got a point.

Sorry if I rehashed old arguments in favor of amendment. Thanks for being patient with me if I did.


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## fatscher

deleted, reason duplicate


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## fatscher

davejw said:


> Howdy "Fatscher"!
> I say keep poutin!


Yeah, where's that pouty emoticon, moderator?

I'm pouty as heck and I ain't gunna take it anymore!


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## Ted Kretschmann

Are the bees in Iceland Volcanic ash proof??? TK


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## fatscher

Rohe Bee Ranch said:


> I believe that laws should be applied evenly across the board. If others are allowed to bring bees into and out of this state (via special permission or a loop hole in the law or via whatever mechanism, whether they are from here or not, then everyone should be allowed to do this. If some official has allowed this to happen in violation of the State Law then that official should be punished. I'm not arguing the law's content. It's there and I follow it. If it needs to be changed then arguments and evidence, both pro and con, should be presented to the proper folks and hopefully things would be adjusted based on new data. I can feel and understand peoples frustrations with certain laws at times but such is the way of our country. Not everything is perfect, but it can be changed...at least so far it can be.


I wish things were that black and white, Dan. It's a little more complicated. As for officials being punished, the entire state govt in Montgomery would probably warrant a good punishing, the kind behind the woodshed.

Ted's a good guy...he's direct and tells you what's on his mind without a coat of sugar--he's a beekeeper, not a politician nor a charming debutante. He's not trying to confront but he's passionate to inform those who are less than most informed. I'm not just kissin Ted's fanny, (ok, phew, that was a bad visual):no:, Ted is really good people, honest. When he can practically make hard-line Lonnie Funderburg back down on this issue, that means Ted carries a lot of weight in this state. He is deeply respected by even the old, old timers. He came out of the womb holding a super of honey. Ted has been there and gotten the t-shirt a thousand times over. He is a genuine bee farmer who is contributing directly to this nation's agricultural economy.


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## Rohe Bee Ranch

It sounds like you think I am casting dispersions on Ted. This is not true. I'm sure Ted is a great person and I have not thought other wise. I have not met him but would like to do so one of these days and see his operation. I think that commercial beekeeping is fascinating and a lot of hard work. 

My point was that there is a law in place that we have to follow. If it needs to be changed there is a process that allows for that. It may take awhile and would require a lot of supporting data to get it changed.


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## markmaster

Rohe Bee Ranch said:


> My point was that there is a law in place that we have to follow. If it needs to be changed there is a process that allows for that. It may take awhile and would require a lot of supporting data to get it changed.


This is not different from what I have said, or what Ted has said, in past comments. There are ways to modify the existing law in order to allow nucs, etc., to be brought into Alabama under strict compliance (i.e., inspections, licensed importers/exporters) without completely getting rid of a system that may be helping to reduce pests and diseases. Too, the thought occurs to me that we might want to consider building up - or back - our own nuc and package production; that way, the need to worry about troubled imports would be lessened.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Loyd, the beekeeping skill level in the State of Alabama does not exist at this time, 2011, to build back a viable package bee and queen industry. We were forced to go to nucs because of the hive beetle. The nuc industry in Alabama is in its Infancy. Much of the knowledge on how to keep bees in Alabama, commercially, was lost with the passing of those that knew. If you exclude me, And the four or five smaller commercial beekeepers,( who run around 400 colonies apiece,) then the average Alabama beekeeper has 2.6 colonies of bees. There is nothing to work with to rebuild an industry. The only way to rebuild an industry is to allow commercial beekeepers who are willing to buy land and house, build a honey house, and declare ALABAMA home, to bring their bees into the state under strict compliance..There will not be many but the few that do take the challenge to locate in Alabama will be top notch producers. It does not matter if they go somewhere else, say pollinating Cranberries or some other crop, you know they will always come home to Alabama. The increased number of Commercial Beekeepers in the state will be able to supply an increase number of bees and queens to the hobbyist in the state and elsewhere. The dollars the big boys generate then circulate and have an 18 fold economic impact on the states economy in the communities they are located at. You are probably wondering were I am getting these figures. The Late Jim Smith, who was a two term past president of the Alabama Bee Ass. did a study onetime on the economic impact of Commercial beekeeping in the state. Jim's Profession was as an acountant. I know of NO other way that what once was will ever come back. TED


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## markmaster

I trust your data, Ted, and am not in disagreement with you on the need to allow large-scale producers to invest in our state's beekeeping economy. The conservative side of me, though, still wants a regulated system of inspections and licensing in order to try to be proactive on the issues of disease and pest problems. I'm not smart enough to know how to make this sort of thing happen, or how to keep this from becoming a political tool for ALFA and the state Ag Dept folks, but it just seems that we need to be doing *something* about this ..... one positive thing, though: just look at how many folks are getting involved in this conversation -- awareness is growing. Can change be far behind?


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## carrojb

Michael, all I can say about the Alabama code you quote, (tactfully) is that little of it makes much sense when it comes to agriculture. I have had bees here for some time , my Grandfather before me, and we have always carried our bees where we please. Not migratory beekeeping per se, but south of here to the tupelo trees and back. As far as I know this has never been enforced and I know a few people who pollinate crops south of the Flordia line and have then come back for many years with no issues nor has it been mentioned by the state bee inspector. Which by the way often has 2 year waitign list to inspect ones hives.
Just remember we are speaking of a code of law that makes sex toys illegal (for women only), skinnydipping illegal and has classified "organic foods" as a passing fad and legally prevented those of us seeking certification to be able to get it in state.
In other words the legislative IQ here is collectively less than zero. 
Our main battle here in this state on the apiary front is a very aggresive statewide plan that sprays roadways three times a year with a list of chemcials that are known to kill pollinators. So far we have gotten nowhere in stopping it at the state or county level and are pursuing litigation. 
A strong argument could be made at times a beekeeper is forec to move his hives into a adjacent state to find refuge from the herbicide / pesticide mix the highway department insists on using.


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## fatscher

carrojb said:


> ...all I can say about the Alabama code you quote, is that little of it makes much sense when it comes to agriculture... ...As far as I know this has never been enforced and I know a few people who pollinate crops south of the Flordia line and have then come back for many years with no issues nor has it been mentioned by the state bee inspector. Which by the way often has 2 year waitign list to inspect ones hives.


As I read this, I'm humming the Toystory movie theme song... _You got a friend in me, you got a friend in me..._



carrojb said:


> Just remember we are speaking of a code of law that makes sex toys illegal (for women only), skinnydipping illegal and has classified "organic foods" as a passing fad and legally prevented those of us seeking certification to be able to get it in state.
> In other words the legislative IQ here is collectively less than zero.


Hey, don't forget making mead is illegal too, also you cannot make more than 5 gallons of wine per year... Now I'm singin' _Sweet Home Alabama...where the skies are so blue...._


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## Rohe Bee Ranch

Has the topic of changing the law ever been brought up at one of the State Beekeeping Symposiums like the one just held at Auburn last Feb?

This thread is the most discussion (public) that I have ever heard concerning this law?


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## fatscher

Rohe Bee Ranch said:


> It sounds like you think I am casting dispersions on Ted. This is not true.


Good talking to you at the meeting last nite, Dale. I find when I shut up and listen to guys like you I actually learn something. As you and i spoke in person e-mail and the written electronic word is hard to interpret without the human dynamic in person. I wasn't trying to defend Ted, because he can defend himself very well. I was afraid you might think he was attacking you, and I can assure you that Ted wasn't trying to do that. I was trying to offer some background but i think i rehashed it all a day late and a dollar short...what else is new?



Rohe Bee Ranch said:


> I'm sure Ted is a great person and I have not thought other wise. I have not met him but would like to do so one of these days and see his operation. I think that commercial beekeeping is fascinating and a lot of hard work.


I would honestly like to earn my master beekeepers certification one day and Ted is the guy I would like to work for to get the experience of a real commercial operation (I only spent two weeks with Mike Palmer, I think I need more time than that)-- a prereq to getting a MB cert.




Rohe Bee Ranch said:


> My point was that there is a law in place that we have to follow. If it needs to be changed there is a process that allows for that. It may take awhile and would require a lot of supporting data to get it changed.


Ditto on all you say. What's unfortunate is some (particularly a few oldtimer hobbyists in our club) don't see it the same way as you and resort to bullying and old school stiff/strong arm tactics to keep their agenda in place in Montgomery on this law. We're not Tiannamen Square (although Montgomery AL might feel like it sometimes), this is America and if you're a citizen, you have a voice in this democracy. All I have to say is thank the Lord that Ron Sparks is gone!!! There might be a chance for this silly law to be amended, now,


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## fatscher

Rohe Bee Ranch said:


> Has the topic of changing the law ever been brought up at one of the State Beekeeping Symposiums like the one just held at Auburn last Feb?


Not that I'm aware. In my short time living in this state, I've discovered (just from what I've seen) that agendas at Alabama meetings focus on how good Alabama is. It's very stale, cardboard, like a 1950s sitcom, Andy Griffin or Leave It To Beaver. They talk abd brag on themselves, How few diseases there are, how great our no-comb law is in protecting us. Jim Tew eggs on the yuck-yuck discussion, and no one is eager to debate, or crawl out of their Southern Fried comfort zones long enough to see different techniques and points of view to be able to learn.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm Southern, born and bred, thru and thru. Every ancestor I had of documented fighting age in 1861, joined the "Gray." But even I can see there's some serious suth'n ostrich sand headburying when attending these meetings, failure to face the truth, like WHY HAS ALABAMA BEEKEEPING DECLINED SINCE 1970? PROOF TEST OURT CONTINGENCY PLAN FOR DEALING WITH AHB. WHY ARE THERE ONLY 4,000 COLONIES IN ALABAMA WHEN GEORGIA HAS 40,000??? It's like going to your Southern in-laws' house for Thanksgiving dinner. Only speak of good news, no unpleasantness, y'all! Be sure to compliment Aunt Rosie on her dressin' now ya hear?

But let me tell you what I'm going to do! I'm gonna shake up this state association...sooner or later. When it comes time to nominate officers, I'm going to ask them point blank how they feel about the no-comb law. If any of them favor it, I shall nominate myself (if I can) to run opposed to them. Even if I lose the vote, it'll have put the subject in the minds of our state membership. We're gonna get this debate out into the open. As Gen Sherman said, I'm gonna make them Rebels HOWLLLL! I got some advice this past week from a beekeeper who said, sometimes if you want to make change happen, you better be prepared to make some political enemies. I plan to do that as well as make some political friends --among some commercial beekeepers in this state who want the law changed.

Also, you keep calling for sound data that shows why the law should change. If the state apiarist would answer my phone calls I might be able to offer the data that supports repeal.


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## fatscher

markmaster said:


> I'm not smart enough to know how to make this sort of thing happen, or how to keep this from becoming a political tool for ALFA and the state Ag Dept folks, but it just seems that we need to be doing *something* about this .....


I joined ALFA, did you ever too?


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## Ted Kretschmann

4,000 colonies==1 colony of bees to 1340 acres of Alabama land for defense against Africanized Honey Bees===:ws TED


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## Michael Palmer

That sounds about right Ted. 1 colony per acre for pollination. Hey, you got the state covered. No hay problemas. Now you gotta just get Alabama to pay you $150 a hive for the contract.


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## markmaster

fatscher said:


> I joined ALFA, did you ever too?


Sorry this is bit late -- bees are buzzin', so I'm busy .... yes, I sent in my paperwork & my $$ a few days ago.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Alfa, the do nothing organization that plans their next meeting and what will be on the menu at the time of the next meeting. I was once a firm believer in Alfa. I thought the could do something. I was the first Alfa honey bee commodity chairman. I founded that division to help commercial beekeepers. The hobbyist fought it tooth and nail. NOW these same people are in charge, as they voted the commercials off the very division the commercials founded. I was too progressive for them. I recommended regional honeyhouses, so the hobbyist would have a clean sanitary place to extract their honey. Then the honey could be sold under a coop type set up with a common label. I was anti honey board. And have been proven correct about the honey board over time. So they voted me off and decertified my county. Alfa does not want real beekeepers that are farming bees in a production farm type set up, they just want votes. Then they can tell the State legislature or US congress, we got 400 beekeepers. It does not matter that those 400 beekeepers may only have 400 hives. Nor does it matter to them that they have a dead beekeeping industry in their state. It is all political smoke and mirrors, and that is what is wrong with the country today on many issues. TK


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## fatscher

This may be getting off topic, but a glaring absence of the list of 17 commodities in ALFA is the grape-growing industry (still in its infancy here in Ala). I'm trying to get a new commodity started.

Ted, I need to get you motivated to come with me to Cmsr McMillan's office. They won't listen to me, but they'll listen to you. Loyd get a sub teacher and join us.

Sheesh this thread just goes on and on and on and on....


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## fatscher

markmaster said:


> .... yes, I sent in my paperwork & my $$ a few days ago.


Yay, that's three of us now, who think progressively. Look out Ted, we're gonna take ALFA back. We need t-shirts that read, "Take ALFA back."


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## beeweaver

Something to consider...

Bees don't know state lines. Any disease that resides in Mississippi and any parasite that resides in Georgia will live in Alabama happily. (I liken this to the USDA banning Australian bee imports (but allowing New Zealand bees??) while they land in the droves in Vancouver... and fly up to 2-3 miles. ???

Bee regulations (any regulations IMO) should balance the benefit with the REAL risk. Alabama, like the United States, must keep the big picture in mind and remember that no bee pest has been introduced to our apiaries 'legally', and regulation with realistic goals will give us all apiaries to work in.

best, Laura


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## fatscher

beeweaver said:


> Something to consider...
> 
> Bee regulations (any regulations IMO) should balance the benefit with the REAL risk. Alabama, like the United States, must keep the big picture in mind and remember that no bee pest has been introduced to our apiaries 'legally', and regulation with realistic goals will give us all apiaries to work in.


Laura, repeat after me. "I, Laura Beeweaver, do solemnly swear to become an Alabama citizen..."

There!

That makes four of us, now, who can go to Montgomery and plead our case to the Ag & Industries Commission.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Laura, those laws on the Alabama books killed a once proud beekeeping industry in the state. I am all that is left of it. Before I retire, I intend to see that law go by the wayside into the trash can of history. TED


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## beeweaver

Laura, repeat after me. "I, Laura Beeweaver, do solemnly swear to become an Alabama citizen..."

There!

That makes four of us, now, who can go to Montgomery and please our case to the Ag & Industries Commission.

?????

Is this about Africanized bees?

1. no way can you keep them out of your state if they want to fly across... swarms do not know borders

2. if they were going to reside in Alabama in any strength they would be there already

3. beekeeper's freedom to control their business will = no Africanization of the general bee population... because who in their right mind would put up with that???

AND
Laura, repeat after me. "I, Laura Beeweaver, do solemnly swear to become an Alabama citizen..."

There!

THE POINT IS... WE ARE ALL CITIZENS, OF ALABAMA OR ANY Neighboring land mass... what is in your state is in mine (at least when it comes to bees). So I feel the best way to control it is not to out law anything out right (or make it financially inhibitive) due to a perceived risk. Instead to consider the risks compared to the industry as a whole... (for instance, no man's livestock should be shot down in the dead of night because some pest was nearby... the horses are out of the gate, my friend). This is coming from a family whose hives were poisoned by the state in North Dakota when varroa was first found near by. 

What is it you fear?


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## beeweaver

Another, point about state regs...

Has anyone checked out Hawaii? It does not border Texas but is hosts Varroa and SHB (Australia can't even boast both those pests) and check out the bee regs for Hawaii... you can hardly legally import a new smoker. By being prohibitive a state is not necessarily being protective... I feel strongly the way to get people's attention to follow rules and protecting the industry is to make it financially attractive. Sad, but true. By banning beekeepers from moving hives into Alabama are you helping the bee industry and truly protecting it? And from what?

g'night, laura


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## markmaster

beeweaver said:


> Something to consider...
> 
> 
> Bee regulations (any regulations IMO) should balance the benefit with the REAL risk. Alabama, like the United States, must keep the big picture in mind and remember that no bee pest has been introduced to our apiaries 'legally', and *regulation with realistic goals will give us all apiaries to work in*.
> 
> best, Laura


Thanks for this statement -- there is always someone who is better at stating the things I'm thinking than I am!

On a side note: I'm eagerly awaiting shipment of a package from y'all -- around April 13 or so. It's a shame that Alabama doesn't have much of a package industry anymore (if we do, I haven't been able to find it), but apiaries like yours, Rossman's, and others will benefit from our backwardness.


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## beeweaver

I expect a beekeeper will end up filling the bee breeder spot in Alabama at some point. Right now almond pollination $$$ attracts most commercial beekeepers west. A new start up or someone who gets tired of chasing the almond $ will set up shop near you. I hope! 

Thank you for your order, we are finishing up nuc stocking this week. Late spring after the long early Feb cold snap.

Good luck with any bee regs passed in AL. I hope whatever happens they are beneficial to the bees and beekeepers alike.

best, laura


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## Scrapfe

beeweaver said:


> ... I hope whatever happens they are beneficial to the bees and beekeepers alike...


I'll jump back in with my 2¢ worth about Alabama beeks enjoying the worst of both worlds.. Or look how the US government "protected" the American auto industry. Uncle Sam’s DOC, EPA, DOT, DHHS, DOE, etc. almost protected AMC, Chrysler, and GM out of existence by carving out protective niches for domestic manufactories that the Japanese found ways to exploit before the ink on the regulations dried.


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## Stonefly7

Markmaster,

You will enjoy Laura's bees. The Buckfast strain is the best I have seen for this Latitude. I have had their stock for years, and am treatment free. We will share information in about six months. I will pm you, and share some stats with you if interested. Can't say much now, as I am taking some advice from Ted. 

I will be busy doing several hundred splits. Just know I am lurking and support all your efforts for change in AL law. I will support all your efforts come September. Until then, keep up the good fight.

Kind regards


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## markmaster

Good to hear from you again.... keep us in your thoughts and prayers. Check with me when you can -- I'll be retired soon and plan to get more active with this sideline (the way it keeps growing, I may not have a choice!). I'd love to get your input on the Buckfast bees -- I've heard about them, both good and bad things, but I wanted to play with a colony myself and see what they are like.


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## Ted Kretschmann

The Buckfast bee is a very good bee. Those bloodlines from the queens I bought from the weavers back in the 80's saved my operation from the scourge of the time----tracheal mite. TK


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## markmaster

Ted Kretschmann said:


> The Buckfast bee is a very good bee. Those bloodlines from the queens I bought from the weavers back in the 80's saved my operation from the scourge of the time----tracheal mite. TK


I'm glad to hear this, for several reasons: first, I'm grateful that your stock was saved - otherwise, I'd never have gotten started in this hobby; second, though, I have been wondering how a bee like the Buckfast, bred in a northern climate, would handle Alabama's long, hot summers .... but if they have done well for you, then they should be fine for me as well.


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## fatscher

markmaster said:


> ...I have been wondering how a bee like the Buckfast, bred in a northern climate, would handle Alabama's long, hot summers...


I think Brother Adam bred these in the UK, Buckfast Abbey. While the UK is certainly at a northern latitude --much further north than Maine even -- not sure I'd call it a northern clime, quite like the stereotype I think of a northern climate. But your point is taken that it's a far cry from Alabama.

Also, Brother Adam got a lot of his stock from Africa to make the Buckfast...it was the answer to tracheal mites (acarine).

Lastly, I own two Buckfasts from Canada (Ferguson Apiaries)...and I'm told those are the only ones made from the Brother Adam recipe sold to US beekeepers.


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## markmaster

fatscher said:


> I think Brother Adam bred these in the UK, Buckfast Abbey. While the UK is certainly at a northern latitude --much further north than Maine even -- not sure I'd call it a northern clime, quite like the stereotype I think of a northern climate. But your point is taken that it's a far cry from Alabama.
> 
> Further north than Maine qualifies as "northern clime" for me ... heck, anything north of Virginia is suspect territory --
> 
> Also, Brother Adam got a lot of his stock from Africa to make the Buckfast...it was the answer to tracheal mites (acarine).
> 
> I read about his that ... one strain came from the Mediterranean area and one from the east African mountains (was it the Monticola or a similar strain?).
> 
> Lastly, I own two Buckfasts from Canada (Ferguson Apiaries)...and I'm told those are the only ones made from the Brother Adam recipe sold to US beekeepers.
> 
> How did they ship to you? I have their site bookmarked, but was afraid that the shipping distance was too great to ensure a decent survival rate.


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## Stonefly7

Markmaster,

Laura,s are a combo of Buckfast and allstar, bred through their program to get the results they were trying to attain. Mine are not pure Buckfast, but carry the gene. Some stock came from Laura, but also from another breeder in TX as well as LA. They are terrific producers, with a little temperment. I'm ok with that as I want to work my bees, not pet them. As you know, production is part bee and a whole lot of management. Makes all the difference.

Last year we were over 100 degrees for a month with no issues, so I think weather won't be an issue for you. I will share with you a couple of cells, and you try them for yourself.

Kind regards


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## markmaster

Stonefly7:
Thanks for the offer -- I will gladly take you up on it! As for the Buckfast strain from Laura, et al., everything I've read about them tends toward a positive match for our climate here in AL. I knew that they were a product of genetic and survivor stock, which makes me happy: I'm a long-time believer in "survival of the fittest" when it comes to plants or animals adapting to a local environment.

Well -- off to the garden .... got some weeding and pruning to get done!


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## Ted Kretschmann

The african strain was Apis Monticola, the bee of the Mountains of Tanzania. TK


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## fatscher

Stonefly7 said:


> ...They are terrific producers, with a little temperment. I'm ok with that as I want to work my bees, not pet them. ...


That's good!:lpf: But they're so fuzzy and cute, don'tcha wanna pet 'em too???


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## Ted Kretschmann

Keith, a Porcupine is cute and fuzzy also. You want to pet one of those!!!:lpf:TK


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## Stonefly7

TK,

Ill trade you two Apis Scutellata's for one Apis Monticola. Then you can pet your bees also and nobody will inspect your comb! 

Kind regards


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## Ted Kretschmann

Stonefly, I think I will pass. I have enough mean genetics that pop up from Apis M. Iberica--Spanish Black Bee and Apis M. Lamarkii--Egyption bee from time to time. Both exist in Alabama at about 2 and 3 percent of the genetics in the bee population. TK


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## baldwinbees

I too am on the state line&pick up swarms on both sides.When I do cut-outs I get all the comb possible...keeps the bees from leaving...wonder what they'd say about that...wonder if I've already done that....ever just drifted off the edge of the road before????you broke the law.....no problem if there isn't an injured party....I'm not gonna bring a load of beetles,'maggots',or foulbrood knowingly&I'm inspecting the comb while cutting to fit frames....IMO the no comb law should be re-evaluated,I would much rather purchase established nucs than'fly away' packages


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## Rohe Bee Ranch

One thing about this thread...It sure has been educational concerning things going on in Alabama Beekeeping. This is great! Nice to see lots of the Alabama beekeepers providing input here.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Yes, this is a good thing. But still the law needs some modifications to bring it into the 21st century. TK


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## dixiebooks

:update:The Alabama Beekeepers Association held it's annual picnic today and we found out that this law has gotten even worse. Rather than repealing it, the legislature has added a $100 fine - PER HIVE - for anyone caught bringing hives or nucs into Alabama. Furthermore, a portion of that fine is set aside to be awarded to the person who provided the information leading to arrest and conviction. Perhaps TK will chime in and add anything I left out. BTW, Ted wasted no time letting those in attendance know just where he stood on the issue. -james wagner


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## fatscher

Yep, I heard it there too. It reminds me of the reward the Nazis had for anyone who reported a neighbor secretly hiding Jews. I know that's an offensive statement, but sorry...I call 'em like I see 'em. The Alabama state apiarist and his lead cronies in the ALFA Bee & Honey Commodity (Buddy Adamson) in Montgomery supporting this law and fine are determined to kill beekeeping in a once proudly voluminous bee-producing state. I thought the lady today asking about her importing Georgia nucs was going to burst into tears, when she learned she couldn't buy nucs anymore. So sad, so very sad. This is happening in America. All you other 49 states, be thankful you live in a honeybee friendly state.

Ted, you made me proud today. We need to run for state office, and get the ABA turned back into the right direction. A LOT of members of ABA are against this, my friend. A LOT!


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## wdcrkapry205

Just my luck, I always miss the excitment. I should have been in Prattville today instead pulling honey.
Nobody cares, but for the record I would like to be able to take my bees out of state to make a crop if I want, and of course bring them back. An inspection coming back in, at my place would be fine with me. I would also like to be able to buy nucs from out of state if I want, like from the Fatbeeman. A requirement to have a health certificate would be understandable.
I am totally against nonresidents bringing bees into Alabama to overwinter. There is no other reason they would want to come here except our mild winters.
Seems like no one has any common sense anymore.....

Gary Condray


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## rrussell6870

What a joke... just another way to try to make a buck off of the backs of the hard working Americans that pay the salaries of the lawmakers... as if they didn't already take enough... 

I can assure you that if my bees were out of state and they told me that I couldn't bring them home, I would give them something to spend that money on... national guard would need some immediate funding...

Had I been able to attend that legislative meeting, I would have not only voiced my concerns, but would have launched an array of questions and forced them to either ball faced lie or own up and admit that they have no real justification for such bans.

Wake up people, they are the ones that are required to answer to YOU.... NOT the other way around.

Knowing Ted, he rolled up his sleeves and dove right in... would have loved to back him up.


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## fatscher

rrussell6870 said:


> Had I been able to attend that legislative meeting, I would have not only voiced my concerns, but would have launched an array of questions and forced them to either ball faced lie or own up and admit that they have no real justification for such bans.
> 
> Knowing Ted, he rolled up his sleeves and dove right in... would have loved to back him up.


Ted was a hero. Unfortunately, Dennis had the microphone. Russell I wished you'd a been there too. But here's the cold hard facts: Politicians pull cloak and dagger moves like this BS so they don't HAVE to answer to the people. You can bet I will remember this crap come election day 2014!!!


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## fatscher

wdcrkapry205 said:


> ...I am totally against nonresidents bringing bees into Alabama to overwinter. There is no other reason they would want to come here except our mild winters....


I was totally with you until I read that last line. Why not? What difference does it make if outsiders bring their bees in state here. Disease? We take our bees out of state and return them here. Alabama's winters are mild? So are Florida's and Georgia's. Last I looked they have a thriving bee industry...far more than Alabama's lethargic bee commerce. We supposedly have 11,000 hives (and even that high a figure is questionable). Together Georgia and Florida have 25 times that number!! Tonite on the grocery shelf I looked at retail honey. Most honeys were commercial brands, SueBee, etc, but the "local" honey??? It was from FLORIDA! That ain't local to me. Where's Alabama honey? if outsiders bring their bees in, seems it would help the economy. What am I missing?


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## rrussell6870

My guess is that many are unaware that no bees, queens, comb, or used equipment are actually allowed to be brought into the state of Mississippi if the originate in: Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina counties of Moore, Richmond, Scotland, Hole, Robes or any two counties surrounding these... ms bpi chapter 6, 103c...

Or...

No bees may leave or enter the state of Mississippi without a permit for each transfer and proof that each and every colony had been treated regardless of condition... chapter 6, 101.01, 101.05.

It pains me to see people with no sense of the industry taking over the industry and pretending that they can "help" those that actually DO HELP.

Alabama folks, stand up, and tell them what they can do with the legislation that isn't worth the paper that it is printed on. Remember, the only thing that gives them a right to control you is your willingness to be controlled.


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## fatscher

I'm all for inspection. Heck, let's inspect until the cows come home. Let's get permits out the tail pipe, for transfer, proof of treatment, proof each colony is hugged thrice daily and loved quarterly and kissed hourly. Let's permit and issue certificate after license after permit, all day long and deep into the night. I'm serious. Let's do it. Anything, but don't forbid bringing disease free bees in on disease free comb.

As for standing up, I'm for it. Today was a wake-up call, a kick in the groin for me. To John McMillan's office we shall go...


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## dixiebooks

fatscher said:


> I'm all for inspection. Heck, let's inspect until the cows come home. Let's get permits out the tail pipe, for transfer, proof of treatment, proof each colony is hugged thrice daily and loved quarterly and kissed hourly. Let's permit and issue certificate after license after permit, all day long and deep into the night. I'm serious. Let's do it. Anything, but don't forbid bringing disease free bees in on disease free comb.
> 
> As for standing up, I'm for it. Today was a wake-up call, a kick in the groin for me. To John McMillan's office we shall go...


The problem(s) I see with requiring inspections for every transfer is: 1) WHO is going to do the inspection? and, 2) WHEN will they "get around to it"?

-James


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## saltcreep

dixiebooks said:


> for anyone caught bringing hives or nucs into Alabama.


Does this include the purchase of bee packages? or is it just comb they are trying to keep out?

*Added:*
Nevermind! I'm an idiot, I didn't pay close attention to the 1st message in this topic.. sorry.


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## dixiebooks

You're not an idiot. Those who made this law are. One problem with such things is that they can get confusing. But you do raise an interesting question, in my mind. Many times packages will begin making comb in the package box. Does that raise the price of that package by $100? -james


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## dixiebooks

Another question (or two):

What is the official position of the Alabama Beekeepers Association?

Who determines what the position of the ABA is/will be?

If there are officers of the ABA who are for this law (or not for the repeal of it), when will their term of office expire?

How are officers elected?

-james


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## Ted Kretschmann

Russell what I saw were two hive hobbyist with two years experience proposing legislation through an organization called Alfa and having an uninformed Governor sign the legislation in the middle of the night. NOBODY that acutually that makes part or most of their living was even informed of this legislation. That it was even in the pipeline. Then the insult was the "snitch" clause that was inserted into the law. Reminds me of my time in Ukraine, when the minder could have you turned in for a reward of a refrigerator or washer and dryer if you did something wrong. "PAPERS PLEASE"!!! This law will back fire on the proponents. Legal action is now being conteplated through any and all means. This includes suing the people that thought up this legislation. All people that have been to my place of operation in the past, you are welcome to return. If you are out of state, you are welcome to visit. But if you are an Alabama Beekeeper that I do not know--Stay away, you might be a snitch!!! Too bad I might have been able to teach you how to keep bees ,something you must not know now or this legislation would have never been written.... I am a past two term president of the Alabama beekeeper's Ass and the FIRST Alfa Chairman of the bee and honey division. Yesterday was a sad and black day for democracy and for beekeeping in Alabama. Fred Rossman of Rossman Apiaries walked up to Dennis Barclift and told him to his face,"Dennis that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard a state doing to its beekeeping industry" Because I have a business to run, employees to pay, a mortgage and a living to make, I will state this in closing, CATCH ME IF YOU CAN!!! TED


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## hpm08161947

I wonder if UPS and Fedex are driving around the state when delivering NUCs to say TX from perhaps FL or GA. Anyone know the answer to that?


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## WLC

Maybe you could ask these guys for help.

http://www.ccaga.com/index.php

Just a thought.


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## Ted Kretschmann

That is the big joke, bees on comb come into the state anyway by the means stated above. Some of the same people that I am told pushed this legislation go out of state to buy nucs. TED


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## hpm08161947

Alabama is such a unique state. I remember taking trips on the weekends down there when I lived in TN. It was, and probably still is, the true "Old South". Watching Bama and Auburn on TV only give you a taste of it. Must have been Alabama they were talking about when they said "Here the past is not dead it is not even past"... or something like that.

So to the point... has anyone ever been penalized for bringing comb into the state? And if so.. how were the penalized?


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## Ted Kretschmann

Yes, and my Confederate ancestors took up arms against such stupity as was witnessed Saturday, June 11th. Comb and bees on comb are slipped in every day for many, many years past. Horace Bell years ago was made to leave the state. But he just came back into the state into another county. The insult is nobody was consulted that makes a partial or full living beekeeping. By the way, doesnt North Carolina have a no comb law?? I know of Commercial beekeepers that work in and out of NC. TED


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## hpm08161947

Ted Kretschmann said:


> By the way, doesnt North Carolina have a no comb law?? I know of Commercial beekeepers that work in and out of NC. TED


We have to have bees inspected when they come in from out of state... IE Cali.... if the state bee inspectors can get around to it. And to be fair to them they usually do.

I checked some old UPS tracking schedules and I guess our bees on comb have been spending the night in Montgomery. So I am a violator... alas.


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## rrussell6870

The first thing that they need to keep in mind is that their funding and jobs are a "gift" and can be taken away at any time... many states do not even have apiary inspection programs any more and the ones that do are under pressure to prove that they are truly necessary... this may have a lot to do with the excessive restrictions... to the industry, these restrictions are crippling, but to the state programs, they are just another reason to receive more funding...

Sadly, it is usually the state associations that get the dept of agricultures thinking that they need to help... when there is a lack of "self policing", one or two bad apples can cause troubles for the rest of the industry...

Who is paying the lobbyists? The state association? If so, there needs to be a complete overturn of the border of directors in that association... 

When "backdoor restrictions" start popping up, it usually means that someone is getting ahead at the expense of others... in this case, I smell a rat and think the first place that I would look for that rat is the board that meets with the lobbyists... bet you will find either a few nuc or hive producers or at the least a few small timers that are borderline "extremists" who pay more attention to the "hype" than the experience of true bee keepers...

Let's discuss the "risks" that regulations like this are supposedly protecting Alabama from...
Then let's discuss better ways to do so...
Then let's discuss just who has something to gain and their positions...
Then I will run it all past my legal team and if they say we have a shot, we can get with phelps dunbar and fight fire with fire.


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## fatscher

dixiebooks said:


> What is the official position of the Alabama Beekeepers Association? Who determines what the position of the ABA is/will be?


James, I'm glad you asked. Tonite I received an e-mail from one of the six ABA Board of Directors. I know three of the BoDs is anti- "No-Comb", including Bill, whom I got an e-mail from tonite. His e-mail says, "_At the October meeting, I will be introducing a resolution to put the Alabama Beekeeping Association on record as opposing the new 'snitch provision'. As to the "no bees on comb" law in general, I have learned the hard way that I have no chance of getting a resolution opposing that law through the Alabama Beekeepers Association's membership (details available on request)_." I don't know about these details incidentally, but I'm like you. Whenever a candidate runs for office, I will be there to ask him or her to the face: "do you support the no-comb law??" Because if you do I'm NOT voting for you!



dixiebooks said:


> If there are officers of the ABA who are for this law (or not for the repeal of it), when will their term of office expire?


According to the ABA constitution, officers serve one year terms, but can be re-elected for a maximum of another year.



dixiebooks said:


> How are officers elected? -james


At the normal business meeting of the state association.


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## dixiebooks

FATSCHER: We need to make a list of all directors and officers up for re-election and ask each one, in turn, their position on the no-comb law (not just the snitch provision). Anyone not with us is can be assumed to be against us. Then we will know where we need to place candidates. -james


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## fatscher

dixiebooks said:


> ...Then we will know where we need to place candidates.


I like your zeal. I don't know the first thing about running a state organization. Heck, I've only kept bees for four years. What do I know? But if I'm nominated on the platform to steer ABA against the no-comb law, can't you imagine the howls in south Ala-BAM! I say let democracy speak out. If I don't get elected in favor of someone who supports no-comb then democracy will at least have spoken.

...and THAT my friend is the difference...there is no HONEYBEE DEMOCRACY in Alabama with what's happened regarding the snitch-a-roo law.


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## fatscher

hpm08161947 said:


> I checked some old UPS tracking schedules and I guess our bees on comb have been spending the night in Montgomery. So I am a violator... alas.


Hear that, Ted? We can get rich if we snitch on hpm08161947! LOL! Here's a slogan: "Wanna get rich? Why dontcha snitch?"


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## hpm08161947

fatscher said:


> Hear that, Ted? We can get rich if we snitch on hpm08161947! LOL! Here's a slogan: "Wanna get rich? Why dontcha snitch?"


What can I say... I didn't do it! UPS did. I bet they could be tough customers to deal with. Guess it all gets back to interstate commerce.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Let see how ludicrus this will get.....Alabama has on her books that No used honey containers unless cleaned are allowed into the state. Well, I have a fellow going to Georgia to pick up three drums of Gallberry honey. Well, those drums then become "used" because they are in contact with honey when they cross the Alabama state line...By the new snitch law that beekeeper can be tattled on, his honey confiscated, fined 100 dollars per item and hauled before a judge....And the tattler will get half of the fine...I had an Alabama beekeeper today that I do not know real well that wanted to work part time ask for A job....I told him due to the new law that I can not allow him on the property or hire him because he might be a "snitch"..People out there in bee land, just watch as a state implodes due to stupidity. Please learn a lesson by all this, this is not HOW to regulate beekeeping in any sort of fashion.....It is because of this type stupidity that Alabama is now dead last in beekeeping. TED


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## baldwinbees

do ya'll think we should be drawing attention to our little nuc 'infringements'...I think the law sucks...I was told it originally was from the 1930's....there should be some sort of allowances for pollenators who travel...quarentine &inspection..whatever...don't take a man's livelyhood,or force him to move to another state


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## Ted Kretschmann

Exactly!!!!!!!!!/ted


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## dixiebooks

hpm08161947 said:


> What can I say... I didn't do it! UPS did. I bet they could be tough customers to deal with. Guess it all gets back to interstate commerce.


THAT'S IT! We "snitch" on UPS and they get their corporate lawyers to fight it. They have deep enough pockets to do the job. -james


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## dixiebooks

baldwinbees said:


> do ya'll think we should be drawing attention to our little nuc 'infringements'...I think the law sucks...I was told it originally was from the 1930's....there should be some sort of allowances for pollenators who travel...quarentine &inspection..whatever...don't take a man's livelyhood,or force him to move to another state


Rather than complicating matters with "allowances", why not simply abolish the entire stupid law and let each of us get on with beekeeping the way we see fit? -james


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## fatscher

baldwinbees said:


> ...I was told it [the no-comb law] originally was from the 1930's....


Funny, I was told by one person it was from the 70s, then another said it was from the 1950s.

See, that's part of the problem, nobody seems to know very much about this law...except that it sucks. I do know that.


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## Ted Kretschmann

This law was first written in 1959 when Alabama had a booming beekeeping industry. The Berrys, the Normans, the Moodys, The Harrells, the Gaffords, old man Short and the Webbs met in Montgomery and wrote the No Comb Law. There was not An Alabama Beekeeper Ass or Alfa involved with it. They did not exist. All the people involved with it are almost all dead and gone!! It was revised in 1973, Alabama still had a vibrant booming beekeeping industry.....The strict compliance rules where added in the late 1990's and the mid 2000's when I bucked the laws due to discrimination, caused by the law-which they do not want to hear from a citizen of the state. So technically, when people tell you 50's or 70's they are both correct. Now Alabama has NO package bee and queen industry and the law outlived the purpose for what it was designed for. Now it is biting Alabama's Citizenery on the butt. TED


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## Rohe Bee Ranch

After reading the last few pages of posts about this law, the one thing that is not talked about or should be done (as I have mentioned before), is to provide actual, scientific, and truthful data supporting the repeal or adjustments/modifications to this law. Without that there is absolutely no way this law, good or bad for Alabama, is ever going to get changed. A group of beekeepers griping that they don't like it is just viewed as sour grapes. Prove or at least show real data that this law has caused a down turn in the state's beekeeping industry or that it makes the state less competitive or that it does not prevent desease from entering the state. Collect this data and get it out to the beekeepers to review. If this data shows that without this law or how changes to this law would improve beekeeping in the state or how by virtue of having this law it protects beekeeping in the state, beekeepers will be in a better position to push for or against this legislation and or any adjustments that need to made to it. Currently all this thread displays is a general displeasure with the law for unsubstantiated reasons. 

As I stated before, I'm not a commercial beekeeper and am relatively new to beekeeping in Alabama so I do not have the historical perspective on this law and how it affects the state's beekeeping industry. Having some hardcore data on this will help everyone. That is what I think we need to properly and effectively address this law.


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## dixiebooks

Rohe- Isn't it a bit difficult to prove a negative? Can those who support the law prove that it helped? NO. All we could do it that which we've already done and that is to show what has happened to the Alabama bee industry since the law was first passed. (Most of that is in this thread - you'll have to start at the beginning and not just "the last few pages".) Bottom line:

-The Alabama bee industry has been decimated. Ask TK about the comparison between then and now. Some of the laws supporters say it was to "protect" domestic commercial beekeepers. Compare the numbers in Alabama versus those of the neighboring states - numbers of hives, numbers of commercial beekeepers, etc etc.
-Some supporters claim it was to keep out pests such as varroa and the SHB. It obviously has not worked, if that was indeed the goal. If it didn't work, there is no need to continue with a law that unduly penalizes AL beekeepers for no good reason.

So, show us one good reason to keep the law. If a law is on the books and has no merit then it needs to be abolished.

That's my penny's worth.

-james


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## wdcrkapry205

Dixiebooks, tell me how Alabama Beekeepers are unduly penalized because migratory beekeepers are prevented from over wintering their bees in Alabama. It makes no sense. Yes we have mites and beetles and anything else will get here sooner or later; I prefer it be later. Doesn't anyone know how to negotiate within reason? Change what needs to be changed but why throw the baby out with the bath water.
And the thread title is calling all Alabama Beekeepers.....


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## Rohe Bee Ranch

Thanks Dixie. I have read all of this thread and learned a lot from it. My point was that data is needed to show that the law has hurt and or helped the Alabama Beekeeping industry. This type of data collection and analysis is done all the time. If you want this law changed you need to provide a reasonable arguement based on solid data that supports your position. An example of an arguement that supports this law is the infestion of mites or SHB could have been a lot worse if the law had not been there. To prove this argument data would be needed to support that position. Your point about what has happened to the bee industry in Alabama since the law has been inacted can be explained away by a number of events that have occurred since the law came into being. The only way to prove that this law has done damage to the state is to gather real data, not just opinions and news paper articles. Those are good to help tell the story and to document certian events and such, but real data will support any argument in a much more solid manner and will get the desired results.


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## Ted Kretschmann

You want data--Look at the Commercial industry in the state and tell me what state of condition is it in. You do not want migratory commercial beeks in the state???? Well, Duh, they come in everyday now and pollenate crops all across the state because we do not have a homegrown commercial industry. You want to keep migratory overwintering beekeepers out-do it with a residency law. Not with a law that now stifles the growth of a homegrown commercial industry. Alabama law HAS not kept disease out of the state nor can you say they were delayed. You want to get rid of the commercial beeks now coming into the state-change the LAW. A commercial industry can not be revived with the forced purchase of NEW expensive equipment. 2000 new medium supers will cost just 50000 dollars to buy not counting expenses to pay the help and build them. The same used supers with DRAWN comb cost around 20000 dollars and they do not have to be built. You people are being descriminated against and just are SO blind you do not even realize it. A commercial beekeeping industry can not be revived with out a source of bees that can not be procurred in this state. There is not enough nucs or packages produced here to supply that demand. When the decline due to AHB occurs in Georgia-where will you get your bees??? Start naming the commercial beeks in Alabama O.K>TED


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## wdcrkapry205

Ted; I pretty much agree with everything you just said, you said it your way and I said it mine. My only objection would be that I don't prefer migratory beeks overwintering in Al. That's It.


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## rrussell6870

Varroa and shb? Neither are limited to comb... shb have already infested AL, mainly through their own flight migration, but also via packages... nucs and full sized hives are far easier to control shb in than packages are, in fact, moving hives is the single most effective way to rid them of shb when an area gets too saturated... so a no comb law only raises the transport of shb by raising the number of packages that are brought in... the only way to keep shb out is to live in a bubble... a strong industry is like a strong hive... by limiting its growth, you leave it vulnerable to failure. 

As for varroa, MS law requires that ALL bees (on comb or otherwise) must be treated before being shipped or transported outside of the state... although the law does not actually state it, as a general practice, MS commercial operations (or at least WE do, sure others just treat everything) run tests to find the levels of mites in each package production and nuc production yard... this allows us to treat any specific colonies that would have the potential to transfer mites into our packages or nucs... on the other end, our nucs and packages are tested at random and found to be far cleaner than the average local colonies... the point is that bees are more strictly inspected and measures are more often taken when there is a state line in the equation... if no outside sources are allowed to ship into AL, where do the residents get new bees? From other residents... which are not having to follow the strict requirements of import/export regulations... 

From what I understand, the averages in mite counts are a bit higher in AL than in MS, mainly south of Birmingham... 

Migratory operations are indeed in AL pollenating your crops... this is because the AL industry is to weak to support its own needs... it was not too weak before the no comb law was imposed... 

It's better to regulate the quality and husbandry of these operations than to create a situation where they use the back door and thus don't have any incentive to ensure optimal health and good husbandry.

The loss to the industry has been great... consider the commercial operations that could use singles and supers from those migratory operations that would over winter there (creating more AL production within AL). Or the lower number of packages from your south and east which are the highest concentrations of shb... the greater number of hobbiest that would be able to enter the industry by getting greater access to healthy nucs from other states... the genetic limitations as diversity dwindles due to only a few producers supplying the entire state with comb that holds drones from those few lineages... and keep in mind that every well treated transaction in the industry helps to pay the bills of the farms and bee producers alike... these are the people that are looking out for the bees and the future of bee keeping... not the politicians... who would you rather give your money to?


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## Ted Kretschmann

205, you can keep them out of here by a residency law. They have to be a resident of the state of Alabama 8 and half months out of the year. So if they plan on overwintering here, that means they have a home base else where. Overwintering migratory beeks come in November and leave in April. So they would not be a resident. Why I said 8 and half months--because some people might want to go and make sourwood honey in Georgia. Or pollenate cranberries in Wisconsin. Or if they are located far enough south in the state, Almonds in California but they will always come back to Alabama-home and bring their dollars they earned outside the state. Pay their taxes, support our school systems and the economy in general during the 8 1/2 months they are home. Commercial beeks produce excess bees. With a rebuilt commercial industry, the need to leave the state for nucs or packages will diminish. To rebuild a commercial industry, you will have to allow some outside beek the opportunity to relocate and become part of the Alabama scenery. That all can be done on strict compliance. This will also create jobs--I have four people that work for me and I am one commercial beek. Sadly this may go to a legal fight in the near future and change will come then for better or worst. I oppose the current law because I want future generations of beekeepers that might come behind me to have a much easier time to build a viable beekeeping business in Alabama that is not economically cut off from outside monetary possibilities in surrounding states. The law can be changed for the betterment of beekeeping in the state with out discrimating against its own citizens. Class action lawsuits can be very messy. TED


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## wdcrkapry205

That sounds good to me. I may be wrong but I feel most peoples objection is mainly against non-resident migratory beeks overwintering here. Take that out of the mix and there might not be as much objection. 
Dr. Russell let me ask you, is it fine with you if migratory beeks overwinter within flying distance of your yards? Not being smart just asking, maybe they do already, I don't know.


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## hpm08161947

What if the migratory beek actually owns property there? Some of the Northern beeks that winter not too far from here own pieces of land where they park their campers. One even bought a house. Would this modify the 8 1/2 month rule?


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## wdcrkapry205

If it did it would be a deal breaker for me. According to the TK law they would have to reside here for 8.5 mos. out of the year. I assume that would mean that they pay their taxes; local, state and federal from Alabama.


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## hpm08161947

wdcrkapry205 said:


> I assume that would mean that they pay their taxes; local, state and federal from Alabama.


You know, that might not be unattractive to some of the residents of the Northern States.


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## Ted Kretschmann

I would like to see commercials become part of the landscape with homes, land, honey houses and employess from the local population. Guess what, alot of these guy become commerical beeks themselves. If a "migratory" guy has house, land, honey house in Alabama and migrates out say the Dakotas for the honey crop season and comes home after the three and half month production window, there should be no problems with that. He will go out under compliance rules and come back by compliance rules. The people that come in here to Alabama to pollenate are under the same compliance rules even now..I sent bees to wisconsin several years back for cranberry pollenation....Loaded them up on the semi first of June and got them back around September 10th. Good boiling strong hives of bees with a super of Star thistle honey to boot. I got a premium price for that honey. So the three and half month window works!! Yes, Dr. Russell, mite counts are higher in Alabama than Mississippi except in my operation .94 mites to the hundred bees. The joke is that my bees have been in and out of the State under compliance in the past three years!!! And to listen to the nay sayers in support of the no comb law, I should be infested with everything. I have the USDA inspection reports to back up this claim. TK


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## Ted Kretschmann

Right now Alabamians are forced to become "outlaw beekeepers". Even some of the proponents of the law have bees in Southwest Mississippi. Know exactly where they are at. They even have bees on trailers that go just south of the Florida line. I know exactly where also. And why does the State of Alabama have "state bee yards with state hives of bees in them" Not just a few but hundreds of hives. Know exactly where they are at and have pictures of them!! So before they throw mud and start snitching on their neighbors, they had better check themselves, their skirts are not clean including the state!! Right now bees on comb come into the state in the form of nucs and hives. We do not know where they are from and where they went in the state. I would rather see those bees brought in under compliance, and inspected. Then we know where they went and who has them. The hypocrisy must go and a level playing field established for all beekeepers in and out of the State. People we must rebuild a once proud industry. Sincerely TED KRETSCHMANN, Alabama's last full time commercial beekeeper


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## dixiebooks

wdcrkapry205 said:


> Dixiebooks, tell me how Alabama Beekeepers are unduly penalized because migratory beekeepers are prevented from over wintering their bees in Alabama. It makes no sense. Yes we have mites and beetles and anything else will get here sooner or later; I prefer it be later. Doesn't anyone know how to negotiate within reason? Change what needs to be changed but why throw the baby out with the bath water.
> And the thread title is calling all Alabama Beekeepers.....


Now given that I have very limited experience at beekeeping (but much more at business in general) I can't see that migratory beeks wintering over in Alabama can be anything but good for AL native beeks. And what about AL beeks who want to be migratory, but can't?

"mites and beetles and anything else": what else is there? chalkbrood, foulbrood in 2 flavors, etc? Are none of these in AL already?

"why throw the baby out with the bath water.": What "baby"? That's not a baby, it's just another law to limit freedoms. If it were a baby, it is dead, it's rotten, and it stinks.

But, that's just my humble opinion though I know I am not the only one.

"the thread title is calling all Alabama Beekeepers.": I'm missing your point here, unless you are reading that I am in TN and thus should have no opinion of what goes on it AL? FWIW, I actually reside in central AL but work in TN. I have apiaries in both states and cannot (legally) bring my TN bees 'home' to AL, which takes us back to your first question (sort of) regarding how AL beeks are hurt by this law.

Thanks for taking the time to dialogue on it, though, and I do seriously mean that.:thumbsup:

-james


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## dixiebooks

Rohe Bee Ranch said:


> Thanks Dixie. I have read all of this thread and learned a lot from it. My point was that data is needed to show that the law has hurt and or helped the Alabama Beekeeping industry. This type of data collection and analysis is done all the time. If you want this law changed you need to provide a reasonable arguement based on solid data that supports your position. An example of an arguement that supports this law is the infestion of mites or SHB could have been a lot worse if the law had not been there. To prove this argument data would be needed to support that position. Your point about what has happened to the bee industry in Alabama since the law has been inacted can be explained away by a number of events that have occurred since the law came into being. The only way to prove that this law has done damage to the state is to gather real data, not just opinions and news paper articles. Those are good to help tell the story and to document certian events and such, but real data will support any argument in a much more solid manner and will get the desired results.


Rohe - Thanks for chiming in. I understand your point. However, what data was used to enact the original law? None, I'd wager, unless it was something totally made up. If there WERE data to support the enactment of the original law, then why have more states not followed suit? The answer is, I think, simple: there is no data that can support it. It is just AL politics (in which I have a couple decades of experience.)


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## rrussell6870

wdcrkapry205 said:


> Dr. Russell let me ask you, is it fine with you if migratory beeks overwinter within flying distance of your yards? Not being smart just asking, maybe they do already, I don't know.


Yes, in fact I allow several friends that are migratory to use some of my yards when I am not using them... NO colonies that are not owned and placed by me are anywhere near my mating yards... 

But this is the kind of thing that beekeepers USED to do for each other (some of us still hold to those old codes of ethics)... we share what we can, give when we can, and help even when we can't... migratory operations play a huge roll in feeding this nation, they need the south just like we need the food that they work to produce... the terms "migratory" and "commercial" are not four letter words... sure there are a few that don't know what they are doing, but the vast majority have great husbandry practices, keep clean, strong colonies, and work very hard to ensure that they maintain good genetics in their operations... you would be surprised at how many spend $50k or more on high quality queens each season just to keep from getting into troubles with inbreeding and mingling with other stocks while in service... they have given me the chance to test many different types of bees under conditions that only their types of operations can allow, and they also hire entomologists from across the country to continue to run stress tests and test for diseases and parasites in each area that they must service... 

In most cases, they know their bees better than the government knows its own and they certainly have more to lose if they don't take great care of their bees.


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## Rohe Bee Ranch

Dixie we can have zero influence on what went on in the past, just the present and the future. One can always research history and find out what data/justification/emotions were used to enact this law. To get it changed now will require a lot of hard facts presented in a logical manner to persuade the current political environment to modify this law. Frankly my gripe with all of this is that there is a law on the books that some are ignoring or are being allowed to by-pass while others aren’t being given the same consideration by the government. I’m old fashioned I guess, but I expect equal treatment under the law. I understand the reasons for folks wanting to move bees across state lines. But there is currently a law that forbids this and until it is changed I feel that it should be obeyed. I know this viewpoint will upset many of you, but until it is changed to allow folks to move bees across state lines that’s the way it is. I don’t make mead because it is not allowed in this State. I really wish that law would be changed so I could try out making mead. But until it is changed I won’t try making it.


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## wdcrkapry205

Dr. Russell, thank you for the response and the information!


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## Ted Kretschmann

Rohle, your living is not affected by the law. Mine is! And for two hive hobbyist, with two years experience to pass laws in Montgomery without even consulting the people that make a living at beekeeping or like the other 6 small commercials part of a living-is unforgivable. Let just do away with a law that has outlived its purpose, level the playing feild, get rid of the cause of all the derisiveness, and put something into place that will benefit beekeeping.........Rohle, you will never understand commercial beekeeping untill you walk in that man's shoes. With hobbyist, unless lightning strikes and blows his beehives into toothpicks,they could really care less! But the day is coming when bees will not be so easy to obtain even for the hobbyist beekeepers of Alabama. TED


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## Rohe Bee Ranch

Ted I agree with you. I'm not in your position and I have stated that a few times. What I'm trying to point out, and no one seems to be getting the point here, is that to get this law changed someone needs to put up a convincing arguement with supporting data to convince the political/government folks that it needs to be changed. Without a good and supported arguement (unless you can convince the Dept of Agriculture otherwise) that changing this law is in the best interest of the State, then nothing will happen and things will remain as they are.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Have already been to Montgomery to talk to the ag dept's legal consul. I Will need ideas from everywhere and everybody that has a dog in this hunt to put on paper, penned and signed on what would make a better and fairer law. These ideas will be submitted to the commisioner of ag. This is going to take a while,maybe a couple of years, with ALL parties Proponents of the law and opponents of the law sitting down at a table and trying civily to better beekeeping in Alabama by changing and twicking the antiquated law into something that levels the playing field. TED


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## Ted Kretschmann

Ideas should be sent to Ted Kretschmann, Alabama Bee Company, 102 Wisel Road, Dadeville, Alabama, 36853 I want to hear the PRO's of changing the law and the CON's also. I want good ideas, I want them signed and dated by the person so I can send them to the Ag dept. TED I even want to hear how a new law would benefit bee breeders, nuc producers, honey producers that might located here and become part of the landscape, and even the "Dreaded and feared" Migratory beekeeper that hobbyist beeks in this state are so scared of.


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## Rohe Bee Ranch

EXCELLENT idea Ted!
Although you got me on one thing...Why are migratory beekeepers dreaded and feared by hobbyist beekeepers? That is news to me. Guess I have missed something else. 
Thanks.
I'll try to collect some of the information you have asked for, both pro and con. If this can be a unified project through out the state things may change some what and hopefully for the better.


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## fatscher

Here it is: The SNITCH provision to the no comb law. See paragraphs C & D (new) to section 2-14-4:
http://alisondb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/searchableinstruments/2011rs/bills/hb552.htm


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## Rohe Bee Ranch

I would really like to have the State explain the reasoning for having out of state beekeepers being allowed to come into Alabama to pollinate where the law prevents in State beekeepers from bringing bees into the state on the comb. It should be one way or the other I would think. What's the deal with that anyway? Why a double standard? Dennis? John? I'm confused.


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## Intheswamp

Ok, who/how/what gets this exception? At least it sounds like an exception to me. :scratch:

"This bill would also specify that honeybees brought into this state pursuant to a compliance agreement would not be subject to these provisions of law."


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## Rohe Bee Ranch

My comment is based on what Dennis said at the North Alabama Beekeepers Symposium the other week. The Symposium put on by the Limestone County Beekeepers Association was fantastic by the way. They really did a great job.


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## fatscher

Here's the link to the code which allows beekeepers to take their hives out of the state of Alabama, then bring them back across the border, home again.

http://alabamaadministrativecode.state.al.us/docs/agr/McWord10AGR11.pdf

"80*10*11*.02* Findings*And*Determination.*
The*pollination*of*certain*crops*is*found*and*determined*to*be*necessary*for*successful*crop*production*and*yield*for*the*economic*benefit*and*welfare*of*the*people*of*Alabama.**With*the*continued*absence*of*suitable*and*comprehensive*pollination*capabilities*by*Alabama*beekeepers,*it*is*further*found*and*determined*that*pollination*services*to*and*from*out *of state*beekeepers*would*be*in*the*best*economic*interests*of*Alabama’s*agricultural*interests,*and*welfare*of*the*people*of*Alabama.**It*is*the*intent*that*these*rules*not*conflict*with*statutory*authority*but*at*the*same*time*provide*for*more*effective*pollination*through*rigid*inspection,*destruction*and*quarantine*as*necessary to*insure*healthy,*safe and*disease*free*bees;*and*enables*the*constitutional*administration*of*the*statutory*provisions*by*facilitating*beemovement*in*the*free*flow*of*commerce."

What this means is commercial beeks in the state can take hives back and forth across the border for pollination, but must apply for and receive a compliance certificate. It also allows an exception for out-of-state beeks to cross our border and pollinate crops here in Alabama, provided their colonies are inspected and they obtain a compliance certificate. The snitch provision is diametrically opposed to this code. Right hand and left hand must not talk to each other in the Ag and Industries Department in Montgomery.


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## Ted Kretschmann

And thus the discrimantory Aspects of Alabama Beekeeping law are finally being sunlit and waking people up. We are supposed to snitch on each other-citizens of the state, while others move freely about the state from out of state. Too much like the old communist system--papers please. TED


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## fatscher

With this thread (all 22 pages of it), I was hoping to shine some sunlight and wake some people up about this. All emotions aside, I have learned a lot, Ted, thanks to you. Better days are coming, friend, I can feel it.:applause:


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## fatscher

Ted Kretschmann said:


> ...The only way to rebuild an industry is to allow commercial beekeepers who are willing to buy land and house, build a honey house, and declare ALABAMA home, to bring their bees into the state under strict compliance..There will not be many but the few that do take the challenge to locate in Alabama will be top notch producers. It does not matter if they go somewhere else, say pollinating Cranberries or some other crop, you know they will always come home to Alabama. The increased number of Commercial Beekeepers in the state will be able to supply an increase number of bees and queens to the hobbyist in the state and elsewhere. The dollars the big boys generate then circulate and have an 18 fold economic impact on the states economy in the communities they are located at.


Ted, I would like to propose a motion at ABA, for the establishment of a monetary grant of $1000, to be offered to that year's newest Alabama beekeeper with 100 hives or more. I know the $1,000 ain't much, but I want to see ABA support the beekeeping industry in this state, even if it's at the sideliner level. The money would be symbolic if nothing else. Would this garner support, do you think?


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## dixiebooks

fatscher- Why not take a look at what surrounding states are doing to promote beekeeping? One thing that TN does is offer a grant program for new beeks. The grants are given out via the local clubs. Another program is cost-sharing/reimbursement of expenses. TN has a program whereby the beekeeper is reimbursed either 35% or 50%, depending upon the beeks qualifying. VA has or had a program that reimbursed even more, administered via the local extension office. I have bees in AL and TN and am aware of nothing that the state of AL does to help me to get started or grow as a beekeeper in Alabama. Other states are promoting and encouraging beekeeping while AL is asking us to turn on each other. -james


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## Ted Kretschmann

As of today the tide has turned and the winds of change have arrived~~TED


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## rrussell6870

What's the latest Ted?


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## Ted Kretschmann

A group of concerned Alabama Beekeepers had a meeting with the Commissioner of Agriculture. The Ag Commissioner stated that a committee of Alabama beekeepers from all factions would be put together by him and the law rewritten. Gone will be the days of no bees on comb. You will have to met residency requirements in order to bring bees in from out of state. You will have to prove that you actually have a domicile in Alabama that you are living in so many months a year. You will have to apply for a compliance agreement and pay the compliance agreement inspection fee on a per hive basis-maybe a dollar a nuc or hive before you can move the bees in. The fee helps the department pay for the cost of the inspection of the bees.A certain percentage of All bees imported into the state on comb in that shipment will have to have DNA or FABIS preformed on them to prove European lineage paid by the beek. Even the pollinators that have been moving into Alabama under compliance will have to pay the same fees and inspection process. FAIR IS FAIR!!! Supers of good clean extracting comb will be allowed to come into the state under compliance. NO BROOD COMB!! The regulation for package bees and queens will remain the same. Sadly the snitch provision and 100 dollar fine per colony will stay in place. In other words, you do not get a compliance agreement, you are forced to leave the state. Not doing so will result in the fines and penalty being enforced. The penalty is destruction of the bees. So if you are an out of state beekeeper, you can come into Alabama under compliance, set up shop if you met the residency requirements. You can not come in and plop on top of other beekeepers, as the state has been GPSing beeyards for some time-many years in fact. The new arrivals will be guided to areas in the state where there is not a commercial or sideliner operating in. There are vast areas of good bee territory that no one is even in. Thus there is no reason for anyone to step on anybodys toes. While this system will not be agreeable to everyone and will not be perfect. It is better than the one we had. Alot of details will have to be fleshed out by the committee. Sincerely Ted Kretschmann


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## Intheswamp

Ted, I'm curious about something regarding this change in Alabama's notorious comb law. 

As you know, I will be setting up a couple of little ol' nothing of note colonies behind my house this spring, we have about 300 acres here. We've also got 110 acres of property about nine miles away where I'm toying with the idea of setting a remote bee yard up, maybe hitting sideliner status one day...it's a nice area that has about a 1/2 mile of river bottom to it, upland area, hardwood, pine, some surrounding farm land, and even an old cemetery close by (DCA?)...and no bee yard within miles (that I know of). But, for now I'm not a registered apiary...I have no bees either here at my house nor at my other property. What will keep an out-of-state beekeeper from coming in to "plop on top" of me? What should I do? What provisions are in there for someone like me? Any? Can I pre-register a site for an apiary? I'm definitely not prepared right now to build up anything resembling a sideliner operation and it will be years before I do. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for less government control (of many things). But the idea of someone from out of state could come in and possibly cause me *not* to be able to use property that I've owned for many years for what I wish does not put a good taste in my mouth.

So, how will the change affect the little guys and wannabees??? Good....bad?

I'm glad some progress has been made, but I am curious about how it will affect little guys...like me. 

Ed


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## Ted Kretschmann

Register your BEES!!! and place a hive of bees on your location that you want to keep. Question---what is to keep an in state sideliner or commercial from doing the same???? Hmm. Maybe I like your area in Crenshaw county???The answer is to register your beehives. If you do not comply already with state law-then you have no reason to gripe about anything. I hear people complain about the guy that is in charge running the country. Well, same thing, they are not registered to vote and did not vote. So what complaints do they have?? They should not even whimper. At least I voted. REGISTER YOUR BEES!!! TED


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## Intheswamp

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Register your BEES!!! and place a hive of bees on your location that you want to keep. Question---what is to keep an in state sideliner or commercial from doing the same???? Hmm. Maybe I like your area in Crenshaw county???The answer is to register your beehives. If you do not comply already with state law-then you have no reason to gripe about anything. I hear people complain about the guy that is in charge running the country. Well, same thing, they are not registered to vote and did not vote. So what complaints do they have?? They should not even whimper. At least I voted. REGISTER YOUR BEES!!! TED


Ted...I HAVE NO BEEHIVES TO REGISTER!!! CAN I REGISTER NON-EXISTENT BEEHIVES??????
(sorry for the all caps but it appeared there was noise you were trying to yell over so I figured I needed to holler back...???) I guess I ask too many questions???

Ed


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## Ted Kretschmann

Ed, when you do get bees, REGISTER THEM!! TED


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## Intheswamp

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Ed, when you do get bees, REGISTER THEM!! TED


Ok, Ok...I hear ya, Ted.<grin> I'll register them. Matter of fact, I've already figured out my course of action...  

Ed


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## fatscher

dixiebooks said:


> fatscher- Why not take a look at what surrounding states are doing to promote beekeeping? One thing that TN does is offer a grant program for new beeks. The grants are given out via the local clubs. -james


No sir, that's not quite correct. Well it is, but let me offer context and perspective. Like you I am a proud member of TBA (even though I still need to pay my dues ), but this grant, you speak of, is a state initiative, not a TBA one. 



dixiebooks said:


> I have bees in AL and TN and am aware of nothing that the state of AL does to help me to get started or grow as a beekeeper in Alabama.


This is my observation too, which is why I propose this grant that ABA sponsor, NOT the state of Alabama. I'm not a state politician, and thusly cannot influence Alabama legislation any more than a mere constituent. Such a prospect feels overwhelming to this grape, chicken, bee farmer & vegetable gardener on 3 acres, who works at a day job at Redstone Arsenal. I am a member of ALFA (Ala Farmers Federation) and I hope you will join me in paying 2012 membership dues. The federation needs guys like us to keep 'em straight.


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## dixiebooks

I think that grant program is a cooperative effort between the state and local association. The club I am a member of is able to set up two new beeks per year. The club covers the cost of one of the "kits" and also provides the mentors and, of course, the beginners course.

The State of Alabama (through the Ag and Industries dept), the ABA, ALFA, and the local clubs and associations should be working together to promote beekeeping.

-james


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## Ted Kretschmann

James, your last statement in there lies the problem. TED


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## fatscher

The Alabama Beekeepers Association is meeting at Taylor Road Baptist Church (1685 Taylor Road, Montgomery) next weekend (Fri-Sat 7&8th of Oct).

At that time I will circulate a petition, seeking as many ABA member signatures as possible, to relax Alabama's no-comb law to allow bees into the state on comb, as long as the carrier is a physical resident of Alabama (claiming AL as his/her domicile). This petition will go to the Bee and Honey Commodity of the Alabama Farmers Federation, a state lobbyist group which wields HUGE power in the halls of the legislature in Montgomery. If you have a strong viewpoint on this no-comb law please make your opinion known to Alabama Bee and Honey Commodity Chairman, Mr. Buddy Adamson, PH: (334) 613-4216, or via email: [email protected].

It is Mr. Adamson's opinion that our AL legislature seems to respect, so please make your voices heard. Democracy cannot be squashed: If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

Thank you, dear reader, for your thoughts, prayers, concern, action, sympathy and encouragement.


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