# When to Give Them the Whole Hive



## Cub Creek Bees (Feb 16, 2015)

Crooked comb begets more crooked comb - fix that ASAP, and keep spacing in more blank bars between straight combs. The follower board can keep growing with the nest, or go away this time of year. Stay on comb management, though, until they get through the building phase.

(March '15 newbie here, so take it with a grain of salt  )


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

The first year is all about getting drawn comb for a TBH. If they have filled up the area that you have given them with drawn comb, continue to move the follower board so they have more room. If some comb is going off sideways, mush it back in line. Sometimes you have to cut it off and put a masking tape sling around it. I much prefer to get my empty bars drawn between two already straight, drawn bars. that way they don't do funny stuff like make wider honey fins at the top of the bar.


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

I have been putting new bars between straight comb since the first time. The last comb is the one that is different. It's not really crooked, just curved toward the entrance for ventilation reasons. I added three new bars about a week ago and they are almost completely drawn already. And they have started another comb behind the curved one. I'm about to head out and add a few more.


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## Life is Good! (Feb 22, 2013)

Now is the season to build comb and get nectar stored away. The spring flow is on and the bees know it! Add as many bars as it takes. The summer dearth is coming - look at the temps and when the heat comes, the bees cannot collect as much, even though a lot may be in bloom. Then all the foragers stay home to cool down the hive (fanning at entrance), so the brood doesn't cook! 

By the end of the first year, your bees may very well draw out all the bars available. My first year hives built out 29 bars (out of 35) and 27 bars (out of 35). Second year, the box was full by end of April (snow still on the ground) and I did walk away splits early May...it's all about husbandry and management!


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

OK, now I am concerned. I opened the hive up so they had the whole space. I just checked through the window to see how the new bars are progressing and I see at least one queen cup and one capped queen cell on the edges of some of the combs. Should I be worried? I thought with the extra space they would be fine and not prone to swarm. Time to do a split? I wasn't expecting queen cells the first year.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

EvanS said:


> OK, now I am concerned. I opened the hive up so they had the whole space. I just checked through the window to see how the new bars are progressing and I see at least one queen cup and one capped queen cell on the edges of some of the combs. Should I be worried? I thought with the extra space they would be fine and not prone to swarm. Time to do a split? I wasn't expecting queen cells the first year.


If this was a package install (and not a nuc) you can expect the bees to replace their queen in the first year. How many queen cells? If it's just a few, it's a supersedure and you should just let things be. If it's more than 3, you probably need to take a look at the hive density as a swarm is possible.


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

Looking through the window there was one capped cell and two cups at the edge of the combs. There may be more. I thought they were getting little crowded so opened the hive up completely and gave them the full space. The queen cell and cups are new since two days ago when I gave them the rest of the hive. I also added three empty bars between the drawn comb. They are filling bars quickly and already have 20 bars drawn since April 12. These are a first year package. Is it too late for a split if they are going to swarm?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

If the cups have nothing in them, they are harmless. And at 3 total, I'd still suspect a supersedure. If you inspect and find more queen cells with larvae in multiple stages of development, they are in swarm mode. With 20 bars and growing, you do have the option to split the hive and take the laying queen over to a nuc. You might decide to recombine them before winter if they don't have enough stores, but it sounds like they are doing great. Opening up the brood nest was a good idea. Sometimes adding more room for the queen to lay will stop a swarm in the early stages. Other times, they decide to go anyway, which is why pulling the queen to a nuc with comb and workers would make them think they already swarmed.

I tried to prevent one of mine from swarming this spring by doing multiple splits. I left 2 capped cells in there to let them requeen after removing over half the comb and workers, and they still decided to swarm. I was lucky enough to catch it in my own yard and re-hive it in another box. That being said, the original queen is an egg laying machine that provided me with 4 additional nucs to sell to other people.


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

Thanks, Ruthie. I'll do another inspection tomorrow to see what's going on. I bought a few old langs that came with drawn comb and I have a box set up next to my tbh. Hopefully if they decide to swarm it will be to the established hive right next door. I have the other lang that has comb right next to my driveway and I have seen a few bees checking it out. I figured they were from my hives just looking for some easy robbing, but maybe they were scouting. The only problem with them moving there is that I have scheduled a cut out this sunday and I need hives to get those bees here. Maybe I can get to lowes and get supplies to build a nuc or a new hive. I guess I'll see what plays out and play it by ear. Thanks for the info and help. I'll keep you posted.


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

Pulled bars out to look today. I found seven capped queen cell sand about twenty that are still open. I think a swarm is imminent.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

you seem to have the brood to do it.. you can cut a few combs off the top bars and rubberband them into empty lang frames. maybe a frame of honey and some of those empty drawn combs. making a split is more reliable than trying to catch a swarm. if you move the queen and shake a bunch of bees they think they swarmed. 

http://bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

I think that's my best option at this point. Do I need to get the old queen into the new hive, or just some of the queen cells? I sure am glad I got those extra lang hives. Picked up another one last night. Thing is, I'm doing my first cutout tomorrow, so I am very quickly doubling my hives. I guess that's not too bad for my first year.

Edit: I just noticed and read the split info on Michael Bush's site and he says to put one queen cell per nuc. If I am just splitting to one new hive, do I remove all the other queen cells and leave one in the new hive?


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

If you take the queen out and put her in a new hive with brood and a bunch of bees it simulates a swarm so the "old" hive thinks they are good and you leave a few queen cells I think.. I think that is so you know you have at least one good one. Good thing is if you don't find the queen with your cutout you can put one of the cells in there. 

i have not done it yet.. but this is what i've read and seen on here.


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

Thanks for the help. I was going to split them today, but I went down to look in the window on the other hive and got stung. I think I'll wait till morning when it is cool and the bees are more docile. I guess if I have one or two cells per hive then I should be ok. I've only found my queen twice since she is not marked and it may be hard to know which hive she ends up in.


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

So, I split the hive today. I moved five brood combs into a foundationless lang. Three of the combs had capped queen cells. I don't know which hive has my old queen, but there are queen cells in both. I hope I didn't screw it up, but I think they will work out. There was a good sized cluster hanging from the lid, so they were placed in the new hive. They didn't seem very happy about the whole situation, but I only got stung once through my suit.


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

My split didn't take as well as I had hoped. It looks like most of the bees went back to there original hive and only the nurse bees stayed. Will this be enough to populate the new hive once a new queen emerges?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

You are going to need to bolster the numbers in the new hive by adding some frames of emerging brood. Also check to be sure they have enough stored nectar and pollen and add a frame of that if they are in need.


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

Thanks, Ruthie. I'll have to wait a few days. It's supposed to be wet and chilly. I saw a few going in and out today, but only a few. I also need to wait for my new bees suit to arrive. My zipper broke on the old one.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

EvanS said:


> My split didn't take as well as I had hoped. It looks like most of the bees went back to there original hive and only the nurse bees stayed. Will this be enough to populate the new hive once a new queen emerges?


in addition to what ruthie said. for the future, most people leave the split hive at the location and move the original so many of the workers will return to that. but ya for now add a frame of brood to bump them up.


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

Thanks, Jake. When I move the new brood over, should I brush the bees off first, or will they still be ok if I add bees from the original hive to the split?


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

keep the nurse bees on there. other hive shouldn't mind them and will help the numbers too. go for fully capped stuff or even find one with capped and some emerging so it will be a quick boost.


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

So far no capped brood in the split, but an open queen cell. And no new comb, but lot's of nectar being stored. They were "holding hands" like they are going to start drawing comb, so that is good. I think my original hive swarmed, though. or maybe a lot of bees were still out when I inspected. That hive is storing a lot of nectar as well, but I don't see any capped brood other than a few drone cells toward the back of the hive. Is this a sign that they swarmed and the new queen hasn't laid eggs yet, or that they have yet to form into larvae? My eyes aren't quite good enough to see eggs through my veil. My second original hive is very drone heavy. Should that be a concern? They have less than half the comb of the other, but again, lots of nectar being stored. Thanks.


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## cgybees (Apr 20, 2015)

ruthiesbees said:


> The first year is all about getting drawn comb for a TBH. If they have filled up the area that you have given them with drawn comb, continue to move the follower board so they have more room. If some comb is going off sideways, mush it back in line. Sometimes you have to cut it off and put a masking tape sling around it. I much prefer to get my empty bars drawn between two already straight, drawn bars. that way they don't do funny stuff like make wider honey fins at the top of the bar.


I wasn't experienced enough to see a problem starting, so I've been in correction mode for a bit... you can see my thread on the topic of curved / cross combing in TBH here:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?312678-Best-methods-of-correcting-cross-curved-comb

Some photos of the mistakes here: 
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1623850187861483.1073741835.1603587486554420&type=3

And amazingly, they even fixed some things for me that I never expected them to...still work to do to get it all straightened out better though.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1626104010969434.1073741836.1603587486554420&type=3


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