# Simple Syrup Question



## randydrivesabus (Apr 27, 2006)

yes that will work...but i dont think boiling is necessary...heating a bit will help. i heat up my water to almost a boil then remove it from the heat and then add the sugar. for 2:1 i've been adding 10 lbs of sugar to 10 cups of water. this is not really a perfect 2:1 but close enough.


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

when I mix 1:1 I mix 1 5lb bag of sugar to 1 gallon of water. 3 bags of sugar and 3 gallons of water will make a 5 gallon bucket. to get 2:1 mix 2 5lb bags of sugar to 1 gallon of water. somewhere recently there was a chart posted on an earlier thread maybe who ever it was that posted can repost it to this thread as for heating I do the same has randy I take the water to just below a boil and add sugar then I bring it back to just under a boil this helps desolve the sugar


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>>So, if I want to mix up a solution of 1:1 syrup - do I simply full my container half full of sugar and then fill it up with water to get the right proportions?<<<

No. Measure in a separate container, equal parts of dry sugar and water. Your system puts in too much water

Riverat
I gal of water is 8 pints. 5# of sugar is 5 pints. You seem to be a long way from 1:1.

Dickm
(Thinking, "a pints a pound, the world around.


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## Jeff McGuire (Nov 18, 2005)

I was going to post the basics but Michael Bush does it so much better. Check this link
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm#when\

Keep it simple like Mike
Jeff


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

dug around and found the chart sundance posted awhile back

http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/convert.htm#sugarmix1


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

*I standcorrected thanks dickm*



dickm said:


> >>>So, if I want to mix up a solution of 1:1 syrup - do I simply full my container half full of sugar and then fill it up with water to get the right proportions?<<<
> 
> No. Measure in a separate container, equal parts of dry sugar and water. Your system puts in too much water
> 
> ...


you are right
my mistake some how I had it in my head a 5lb bag of sugar was right at a gallon I fed the bees light this spring but they must not have minded they did fine but wouldnt want to make the mistake going into winter andmake them work harder


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## buzzinjack (May 4, 2007)

I have been mixing 5#sugar to 2 1/2 pints water. Should yield 2:1 sugar water ratio I hope.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

"No. Measure in a seperate container, equal parts of dry sugar and water". [dickm]. YES, I am glad somebody mentioned that: seperate container. For me, that seems to keep it simple rather than thinking in terms of pounds of sugar and then,... pints, quarts or gallons of water although I see that seems to work for some. Also, you can buy a 25 pound bag [or larger] of sugar which may be cheaper than only 5 pound bags at a time. For a 2:1 syrup the PARTS would NOT be equal of course. The amount of sugar would be TWICE the amount of water. I hope that's right.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

The ratio does not need to be perfect. The bees will use it no matter what the ratio, as long as they can sense the sweetness.
The lighter the syrup, the closer to nectar, and more drying required for storage, the heavier the less drying required for storage.


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## randydrivesabus (Apr 27, 2006)

doesn't make sense to have to mix them seperate...if a pint's a pound then a pound's a pint. so for 1:1 or 2:1, as long as the ratio is correct then the mix is correct.


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## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

*Ratios*

I guess ratios for simple syrup aren't so simple!

It's a ratio, folks. Take out your math primer from 4th grade, and read it again!

Okay, now back to our regularly scheduled show...

MM


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So, if I want to mix up a solution of 1:1 syrup - do I simply full my container half full of sugar and then fill it up with water to get the right proportions?

No. That will be about 2:1.

>Likewise if I want 2:1 - fill up the container 2/3 with sugar and the rest with water? (I assume I will have to boil it to get this much sugar in solution?)

No. That will be about 4:1

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm#ratios


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

The wife (who holds a degree in mathematics) and I went around and around with this one a few weeks ago. In a nutshell, here's what we determined:

You need to assume two things:
First, the saying, "A pint is a pound, the world around," and, understand that a gallon of water weighs 8 pounds (rounded), both of which are the same thing.

And, secondly, either by weight (which is proper bee feeding) or by volume (which _technically_ is wrong), unless you're mixing up hundreds of gallons of feed, it doesn't really matter which method you use. But, if you're needing hundreds of gallons of feed, you're probably not mixing it up on your stovetop anyways. Understand, the difference in methods is in DECIMALS or fractions of gallons. And as most bees don't have a good understanding of math, as long as it's close, they'll eat it and be happy.

So, this fall, make your 2:1 heavy syrup by mixing 2 containers of sugar with 1 container of water. Or, take the time and weigh out your ingredients; 16 pounds of sugar with 1 gallon of water. It doesn't matter. Your bees will take it, and use it the way you intend, as long as it's close.

But, I DO suggest boiling your water first, BEFORE adding your granulated sugar! (Not adding water to the sugar. Right, Chef?) Stir, stir, stir. And don't boil the syrup once the sugar is added or you risk burning it and the bees won't take it. If you're making large amounts, use a boat oar, drywall compound paddle mixer, or electric outboard motor to mix the sugar into the water/syrup with.

Now, for the stuff rumors are made of! Please note that these are "folk-style" remedies, and I don't have any proof that they work or don't. Use at your own risk!: 1 part of chlorine bleach to 500 parts of syrup is said to stop that nasty looking black mold. Probably safer, but still unproven, is apple cider vinegar added to feed in the same concentration. And lastly, another unproven additive is Cream of Tartar (1 teaspoon per gallon) to prevent crystalization, although I've also read the some people feel it prevents mold also. (Never mind the fact that the mold doesn't hurt anything and the bees don't care either way, but everyone seems to think it shouldn't be there...)

So, make it and feed. Don't make it rocket science. As long as you're close in your mixing ratios, your bees will appreciate your efforts!

BDDS


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

So you say Big Daddy! They often don't show any appreciation of my efforts at all. Ouch!! And I remind them of it, but they just don't seem to care!!


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

I use the weight measure to mix a batch of sugar water. I boil the water and add the sugar. I also bring the whole thing up to 200 deg before putting it in storage containers. I find this kills any bad bugs in the mix and I have no problems with mold or fermentation.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

1. You have to go by weight....volume is not accurate as sugar is more dense than water so it does not take as much to be that same amount as water.
2. Add the sugar to the water and stir... you do not need to add heat until the mixture is fully saturated which is up around 2:1.. The sucrose will form bonds with the H20 until the solution is saturated at which point sugar crystals will pile up at the bottom of the mixing container.... when that happens you need to add heat to increase solubility...but you should not be feeding bees anything that over 2:1 anyway.


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## aidah (May 29, 2007)

I'm Reading this at 6AM and this is way to much math for me at this time of day. I'm thinking it wont get any better later in the day.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1. You have to go by weight....volume is not accurate as sugar is more dense than water so it does not take as much to be that same amount as water.

But it's not enough difference to be relevant.

>2. Add the sugar to the water and stir... you do not need to add heat until the mixture is fully saturated which is up around 2:1..

I can't get it to dissolve at 2:1 without boiling the water, adding the sugar and continuing to heat until it dissolves. You think 2:1 is just saturated? I think it's seriously supersaturated.

>The sucrose will form bonds with the H20 until the solution is saturated at which point sugar crystals will pile up at the bottom of the mixing container.... when that happens you need to add heat to increase solubility...

But if you start with boiling water, you save yourself a lot of the risk of burning the sugar.

>but you should not be feeding bees anything that over 2:1 anyway.

I'd be impressed to see someone succeed at making something over 2:1...


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

If you don't care what the mix is you can just mix sugar in until the solution is saturated and pour the solution off leaving the sugar on the bottom for the next batch. I don't see that there is any benifit to supersaturating your solution by heating; unless you think it kills microbes or something.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I'd be impressed to see someone succeed at making something over 2:1...

There is HFCS 90, which is 90% sugar. But I couldn't make some myself,
as I just don't have enough corn acreage. 

> You need to assume two things:
> First, the saying, "A pint is a pound, the world around,"

Except with honey, where a pint is NOT a pound.
With honey, a pint (volume) is 24 oz (mass).


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>doesn't make sense to have to mix them seperate...<<<<

I totally agree. :0)

dickm


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## Apuuli (May 17, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >So, if I want to mix up a solution of 1:1 syrup - do I simply full my container half full of sugar and then fill it up with water to get the right proportions?
> 
> No. That will be about 2:1.
> 
> ...


I don't see how you're getting these numbers. A container half filled with sugar and then filled completely with water will be one part sugar to one part water. Except that the sugar contains air pockets which will be filled with water, so it'll be one part sugar to greater than one part water. Less concentrated than 1:1 and not even close to 2:1.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

If you do it by weight you don't confuse yourself..... Its basic chemistry which I can wrap my brain around, but not explain well.... has to do with the molecular bonds and space.....when you mix them the amount changes because they share bonds...and space.

If you take three containers of equal size and fill one half way with sugar and one halfway with water and then dump both into the third container and mix....the third container will only be 3/4 full.

So if you take one container and fill it half way with water and then add sugar until it is full you will have more sugar than water.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If you do it by weight you don't confuse yourself..... Its basic chemistry which I can wrap my brain around, but not explain well.... has to do with the molecular bonds and space.....when you mix them the amount changes because they share bonds...and space.

But that's only a problem if you use ADDITIVE volume. In other words you measure the volume of water and add it to the pot and then you add the weight of sugar. You DON'T put water in and add sugar to twice the volume for the reasons you are stating.

>If you take three containers of equal size and fill one half way with sugar and one halfway with water and then dump both into the third container and mix....the third container will only be 3/4 full.

Correct.

>So if you take one container and fill it half way with water and then add sugar until it is full you will have more sugar than water.

Correct.

But that doesn't stop you from measuring 10 pints of water, boiling it and adding 20 pounds of sugar to get 2:1 syrup.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Just for fun, go buy a pint of Heavy Cream and a pint of Half-n-Half
or Light Cream and weight them.

Which one weighs more?

Nope, the Heavy Cream is the lightest.

Fat is lighter than water in equal volumes.

Yet another example of how a "pint is NOT always a pound".

Perhaps it would be better to pound down some pints...


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I knew cream was lighter because I remember it rising to the top of the bottle. I put 25 lbs of sugar in a 5 gal bucket. It's a lot of sugar. I add the water (about 1-1/2 gals). It makes about 4 gals of 2:1.

Dickm


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## Apuuli (May 17, 2006)

bluegrass said:


> If you do it by weight you don't confuse yourself..... Its basic chemistry which I can wrap my brain around, but not explain well.... has to do with the molecular bonds and space.....when you mix them the amount changes because they share bonds...and space.
> 
> If you take three containers of equal size and fill one half way with sugar and one halfway with water and then dump both into the third container and mix....the third container will only be 3/4 full.
> 
> So if you take one container and fill it half way with water and then add sugar until it is full you will have more sugar than water.


Exactly, so if you had a container that was half full of sugar and added water (the original scenario) and you dissolved the sugar as you were adding the water, you'd end up with a mix with much more water than 1:1 syrup.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Apuuli said:


> Exactly, so if you had a container that was half full of sugar and added water (the original scenario) and you dissolved the sugar as you were adding the water, you'd end up with a mix with much more water than 1:1 syrup.


Yes....but why would you do that?? you always add the solid to the liquid, not the other way around.....it will not mix well if you add the water to the sugar. Like making cookies...you mix the wet and then add the dry to the wet.


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

Wow! I'm staying tuned just see whatever else Jim comes up with that DOESN'T weigh a pound when placed in a pint container! 

(And, I'll gladly discuss this, and any other matter over a couple "pints" with you ANYTIME!) 

When looking at the statement "a pint's a pound, the world around", yes, it IS flawed. But, it's close! Even with water, a gallon weighs somewhere between 8.33 to 8.35 lbs.; which is just a hair over a pound per pint. Likewise, sugar can weigh between 14 and 16 ounces (weight) per pint container. So, in all but sterile lab conditions, there is a built in margin of error. 

But, with cooking and other non-scientific purposes (like feeding bees), it's MUCH easier to say that "one pint equals one pound."

Take a red plastic "party cup" (16oz.),and put 12 1/2 cup fulls of water into a pot, and heat it until boiling. Then, take 25 lbs. of sugar, or 25 scoops of the same water cup size, and pour the sugar in while stirring. Watch to make sure it doesn't go above 212 degrees F. (which may be different depending on your altitude (but this is confusing enough, so we won't go there...), and stir until dissolved.

Easy! (And if you don't tell them, your bees won't know it's not exact. (Actually, only Jim Fischer will know the difference! But, after a few "pounds" of beer, I'm sure he'll forget to tell them!)) 

DS


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Wow! I'm staying tuned just see whatever else Jim comes up with that DOESN'T weigh a pound when placed in a pint container!

Actually of course it is pretty accurate for a ballpark for most things other than syrup and honey. I think NOTHING weighs exactly a pound for a pint. But a pint of oil is about a pound and a pint of water is about a pound and a pint of sugar is about a pound and a pint of cream is about a pound and a pint of milk is about a pound...


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Wow! I'm staying tuned just see whatever else Jim comes up with that DOESN'T weigh a pound when placed in a pint container!
> 
> Actually of course it is pretty accurate for a ballpark for most things other than syrup and honey. I think NOTHING weighs exactly a pound for a pint. But a pint of oil is about a pound and a pint of water is about a pound and a pint of sugar is about a pound and a pint of cream is about a pound and a pint of milk is about a pound...


A pint of mercury is 8.3 lbs


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## Apuuli (May 17, 2006)

bluegrass said:


> Yes....but why would you do that?? you always add the solid to the liquid, not the other way around.....it will not mix well if you add the water to the sugar. Like making cookies...you mix the wet and then add the dry to the wet.


Oh, I wouldn't. I was just answering the question. However, I do add the water to the dry mixture when making pie crust...


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Apuuli said:


> Oh, I wouldn't. I was just answering the question. However, I do add the water to the dry mixture when making pie crust...


Hmmmm.... I don't think 2 tablespoons of water really counts Good point though..


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## John F (Dec 9, 2005)

Apuuli said:


> I don't see how you're getting these numbers. A container half filled with sugar and then filled completely with water will be one part sugar to one part water. Except that the sugar contains air pockets which will be filled with water, so it'll be one part sugar to greater than one part water. Less concentrated than 1:1 and not even close to 2:1.


I think the original description is confusing. It sounds like 1/2 container of sugar and 1/2 container of water (1:1 by volume)

OR

1/2 container if sugar and then fill with water until sugar is disolved and container is full (1: 1>2 by volume)

I see this to be one of those discussions that keeps coming up. I haven't yet read past the post I'm responding to but has anyone mentioned that chemists talk about concentrations and then they have to identify whether it is by weight/volume/molar, molar being the default?

Well anyway. I did some playing around (by weight if anyone cares) and you can get a good 2:1 approximation by pouring some granulated sugar into a syrup tight container and then pouring hot water in and stirring until the dissolved sugar solution comes to the same level the sugar did by itself. So, make a line in a 5 gal. bucket with a sharpie. Fill to line with granulated sugar. Boil a bunch of water. Start pouring and stirring until syrup level is at the sharpie line.

Good to go.

Yep, I pour the hot water into the sugar. Why is that a problem? It doesn't seem to react like water into acid.

As for Michael's challenge. I suspect that the limit we deal with is the heat we can get keep in the water to aid us in dissolving the sugar. I wonder if I can meet your challenge with a pressure cooker. Hmmm...

{in edit} But then would the sugar stop being sugar... say by burning...


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## John F (Dec 9, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> A pint of mercury is 8.3 lbs


What?

Using specific gravity, a volume if mercury will weigh about 13.6 times the weight of the same volume of water.

I must have missed a joke?

A pilot would never fudge with the pints-a-pound bit. Although in the weight calculation he would err in his favor he may end up out of the flight envelope in balance.

Especially if he flies any of the KC (fueler) planes.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

John F said:


> What?
> 
> Using specific gravity, a volume if mercury will weigh about 13.6 times the weight of the same volume of water.
> 
> ...


My point being that a pint of mercury is alot more than a lb.
There are 8 g Hg per ml.....roughly 3785 ml per gallon and 453 g per lb = 63 lbs per gallon/8 = 8.3lbs per pint


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Of course you can't assume that a pint of something is going to be a pound, but you can know that a lot of things, such as milk, oil, water and sugar are close enough for estimation. Other things like lead, honey, syrup, iron and mercury obviously are not.


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## randydrivesabus (Apr 27, 2006)

oil????????



btw...i have all those ? because you can't post a message unless it has at least 10 characters.


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

Sure, oil. Michael's got cooking or baking on his mind apparently.

And, he's right. With MOST things you'd want to feed your bees, or eat yourself, you can figure that a pint weighs a pound. Unless you're talking about honey itself. Or making such a large volume of anything that, exponentially, your "close" becomes "no cigar".

And, until I decide to feed my bees lead or mercury... 

"A pint's a pound, the world around." (Except honey, in which 12 fluid ounces is a pound...)

DS


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## randydrivesabus (Apr 27, 2006)

ah...cooking oil. ok. i was thinking of motor oil, or actually bar oil which when its cold out has the same exact consistency as honey.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Motor oil, gear lube, transmission fluid, power steering fluid, cooking oil, lard, tallow, paraffin, beeswax...


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## randydrivesabus (Apr 27, 2006)

yeah...its true...it all weighs about the same per pint.


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## djuniorfan8 (Jun 15, 2004)

*Wow*

Wow guys, this is a long thread for something so simple. I didn't know there was so many ways to make 1to1 and 2to1 syrup. Some of my older Beek books recommend a 1to2 solution, of course that was in the 60's.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Mixing Syrup*

Your mix is a ratio by volume.
1 part sugar to one part water = 1:1
2 parts sugar to one part water = 2:1
Or, one gallon of sugar + one gallon of water = 1:1. Two gallons of sugar to one gallon of water = 2:1
Good luck,
Lucas Apiaries--a queen breeder


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

Well we can go to the 1:2 sugar to water for early brood stimulation... I don't have any experience here yet, but I did read it in the 2002 January Pink Pages. 1 pint sugar to 2 pints water. Or do I need to just shut-up?


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