# Why top bar hives



## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

I am not trying to start a fight. I just want to know why you have top bar hives instead of Langstroh.
Dave


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

why ask why? Are you asking for advantages of ? or just looking for opinions? I have had both, currently have langs, but plan to utilize my TBHs as well next yr......You ask why? My answer is " just because" I have no other reason than that.


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## reminniear (Apr 7, 2014)

Price and simplicity. 

Please note that these are my reasons. Others will have different reasons.


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## djjmc (Feb 6, 2015)

My personal reasons:
1. I wanted to build a hive myself.
2. Cheap and EASY to build. (Red cedar 1"x6"x4ft fence boards @1.80 per board home depot)
3. Easy to inspect (without using gear or smoke)
4. Treatment free natural cell size ( although you can do the same in langstroth)
5. Not concerned about quantity of harvest. But rather the learning experience of keeping my own bees. -treatment free.


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## IsedHooah (Jan 13, 2015)

I really see it as a matter of preference over most other reasons. I have never owned TBH's and I can truthfully say that I just don't like the way they look. They are really just not appealing to me as a beekeeper.


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## Cub Creek Bees (Feb 16, 2015)

reminniear said:


> Price and simplicity.


I'll second that...


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I have been on a lot of forums and have seen many people try to control the content (beyond the original topic) to making only one side of the topic to being heard. Naturally if someone only wants to hear about decisions that were made by them and no others, it would do the topic and forum a disservice. Most join a forum for content. The op is not the only one being answered when a question is made in public but the forum is also being answered cause the ones reading the thread may be those who are still making up their minds yet. If a question was put to owners of top bar hives and you had to prove you had one before you could read and then answer, It would be proper to keep out the other opinions. If however everyone can read it, then everyone should be able to comment including why they think not to get one. Then the topic is well served for all who read it, not just the one who ask. 

My opinion.
gww


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Perhaps one of the problems here is that IsedHooah entered this discussion from the main BeeSource page, and not from the TOP HIVE FORUM index. I sometimes do that, too. And the result is that occasionally I accidentally post a slightly inappropriate response _for a particular forum_. 

But I agree, unless a person is being deliberately insulting, simply stating an opinion that's at odds with yours doesn't warrant any push back - just scroll on by.

Enj.


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## AugustC (Aug 7, 2013)

I originally started out with them because I wanted to try out beekeeping without it costing a LOT of money to find out I wasn't that fussed. The more I have done it, the more I have read, and the more I have researched it though the more I prefer it. I have a national hive too (like a langstroth), as well as warrés so perhaps I am tinkering.
It really depends what you want out of beekeeping. What is most important to you? If it is honey then go for a langstroth, if it is healthy bees, I really think the top bar hive is the way to go.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Price is a big driver for me, and I just kind of like them. My cost for a full size hive using box store lumber is about $50 a hive. And I really don't like lifting supers, or anything heavy for that matter (bad back and general laziness).


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I don't have bees yet but I made a lang and a hybred long hive. From a labor and material stand point, the long hive was much easier and cheeper to make. I made it to accept medium frames and strait sided and so I don't know if it is even really considered a top bar or long lang. I do know that if I need a hive really quick that for my skill level in carpentry, I could only do a top bar in a day or two cause I could not make the same space worth of lang hive that quick. Which I like best? I will tell you in a year or two from now.
Gww


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's not the only way to get some of these benefits, but I think the real reason for a top bar hive is that you can build it from scraps for next to nothing AND you get the following benefits: natural comb, (with both natural cell size and clean chemical free wax) no boxes to lift (horizontal). If you want all of these in one combination, then a top bar hive is for you. You can get all but the "easy to build from scraps" part with a long Langstroth hive with foundationless frames.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Dave, I have both but prefer top bar hives. My reasons are:
1: I find working a TBH easier than a Lang
2: I find the bees are MUCH gentler in a TBH when you inspect the hive. Fewer bees are impacted because you have not torn their home apart into three or four pieces
3: I find keeping track of and rotating out old comb is easier in a TBH
4: I find doing inspections to be quicker and easier 
5: No heavy lifting, no storage of boxes, much cheaper to build, no bending over because they are on a stand waist high, it is easy to harvest small honey flows one bar at a time for unique tastes, and you cannot kill your queen by accidentally crushing her between frames


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Good point gww. I can make a hive in a couple hours. There are more cuts in a single brood box (rabbet joints) than a tbh.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

> You can get all but the "easy to build from scraps" part with a long Langstroth hive with foundationless frames.


I actually built both hives with junk wood. some barn oak, pine, cherry boards and even a couple of small walnut board. I found a couple of things. It takes a lot of wood, I wiped out mine and dads 3/4 to 1 inch board that we both had laying around and it didn't go too far which is why I don't have more equipt.

Picking through junk and mixing and matching makes bought hives or boards see priced better if you have more money then time.

Two long wide boards with a bottom, top and two sides is lots quicker then 3 or four lang boxes. Building foundationless frames if you follow the dandent plan on how to cut each peice is time consuming. Plain top bars would help on this.

gww


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

The secretary of one of the local bee clubs asked me to list the reasons why I like my topbar hives. This is the email that I wrote to him:

Chuck,
You were looking for some reasons why I love my topbar beehives so much. Well, here they are in no particular order: I’ve been wanting to keep honey bees for over 20 years, but each time I looked into what was necessary, the equipment and management just seemed to have an overwhelming amount of choices and complexity. When I read about the topbar hive in 2013, it all just seemed so nice and simple to get started into beekeeping. Everything was so very light weight and there was very little equipment needed. I didn’t need to decide if I was going to use 8 frame vs. 10 frame boxes, mediums vs. deeps, plastic vs. wax foundation. And once I found the kit from Beeline Apiaries and Woodenware for $150, I didn’t need to worry about building a hive or sorting through the various plans on the internet. The assembly was only about 20 screws.

The hive stand is at a comfortable working height so I don’t need to stay bent over and the unusual hive style means that very few neighbors know that I have bees in my front yard. And I wanted to keep bees without chemicals and in as stress free an environment as possible for them to make the cell sizes they wanted to, when they wanted to make them. 

Now that I have had them for a couple of years, I find that learning the topbar management techniques was extremely easy, even for a new-comer (although I must say I read just about every bee book that I could get my hands on during that first year). I love the fact that there is an observation window in each hive. I can look at the bees morning and night, to take a quick peek into what is going on in the hive. And I find the bees to be very gentle and easy to work, even though I don’t use a smoker (one more plus, no smoker to light and keep lit!) I also love the ability to harvest one or two bars at a time and enjoy the unique honey flavor of each nectar that was put in the comb. And there is no extraction equipment to clean up or store.

I have also found that the bees will draw out beautiful queen cells on the edges of the topbars, and on multiple bars too. This makes it extremely simple to make nucs and new queens to get other topbar beeks started. And all that natural, pristine comb lends itself so beautifully to photography. So as you can probably tell, I’ve really fallen in love with these wonderful creatures. It was never about the honey. It was the appreciation for these fascinating, wonderful creatures that God created and put here for us to enjoy and protect.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

TBH's are not for everyone, but I think that anyone that has had Langs and wants to try something new should get a TBH, particularly if they put a window in it. They should have no problem managing them and may find it interesting being able to take a peak of them every once in a while.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Thanks for the replies. It seems that the three main reasons for top bars is price, convenience, and simplicity.
Dave


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## catbackr (Jun 5, 2010)

I have 15 langs and 12 top bars. My experience is that it takes more management for the top bars than it does for the langs. In particular, if you get behind and let the bars get cross combed you will have a big mess on your hands. If you want to have a hive that you can just put the bees in and forget it, you will probably not be happy with a top bar. On the other hand, if you're willing to get into the hive and mess with them and learn, they are great and an absolute joy to observe.


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## djjmc (Feb 6, 2015)

Dave -agreed, good way to sum it up
Catbackr: Having worked with both it does take longer to inspect a full 4' bar top bar hive, compared to a 3 box lang. You can be 'rough as guts' with a Lang and, apart from the bees being p1ssed, everything will be fine. On the flip side if you rush things with a top bar, or are rough, then you are likely to have broken comb.


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## catbackr (Jun 5, 2010)

Actually I don't think it makes much difference on the inspection. All of my topbars are on legs at waist height so I don't have to bend, lift and so on, but there probably isn't much difference between the two. What I meant by requiring more maintenance, is on a lang, if it gets crowded or honey bound, it's easy to just throw on another box or two and come back to fix it when you have time to work on it. On a top bar, if you let it get full, you have to remove the bars now or the hive will swarm on you. Crosscombing is a big issue, especially for new beekeepers and is, in my opinion, one of the biggest problems new top bar keepers face. I guess I'd sum it up by saying you have to be more attentive on a top bar. The other thing I would add is that doing crush and strain for the honey is ok until you get around 15 hives. Then it's work! I have a small extractor for the langs and it's definitely easier.


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

I would agree with everything that was summed up by Dudelt and other. I have both, but really enjoy the TBHS and not having to heave boxes off of the Lang only to place them back down and crush some bees. It is a real pleasure working calm bees.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

I chose top bar hives because I wanted something cheap and needed it ASAP. I have a good friend with Langstroths and from time to time I help him with his boxes. They can be very heavy! I appreciate the ease of which I can inspect in comparison. He just accepts that he'll kill bees when he goes in, whereas if I kill even one I regard it as a needless death and feel guilty!


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I have mainly Langs but also two TBH and this year will also stock a Warre hive. I am interested in comparing them...what they are like to work with, how the bees do etc. must admit the Langs are my preference for honey production. The TBH for pleasure.


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## Random Dude (Feb 25, 2015)

Dave Burrup said:


> I am not trying to start a fight. I just want to know why you have top bar hives instead of Langstroh.
> Dave


I'm currently researching the approach I'd like to take, and the TBH is appealing to me for a few reasons.

First, the ability to keep bees without having to lug the weight associated with the Langstroth hive system, or any stacked system, really, is a huge selling point for me. I lug enough heavy stuff as it is, thank you.

Second, the construction and design is relatively simple.

Finally, I like the idea of bees being able to start from scratch with freshly made comb.

I can see the appeal of the Langstroth system, especially for commercial duders/ettes, but I really do like the idea of being able to deal with a single bar of brood/honey at a time without having to lug supers.

/shrug


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

hi Random, I think you have probably honed in on one of the main differences between a TBH and a horizontal hive with Lang gear. That is that you are only exposing 1 or 2 bars of bees to the sky above. I can tell you the the bees have a totally different vibe for me between Lang and TBH. TBH being my preferred vibe.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Eric, you can do the same with a long hive. May folks with long hives have short inner covers that cover three or four bars.


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

Yes it is close to being the same. . My back wishes my verticle Langs were Horizontal Langs.


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## Random Dude (Feb 25, 2015)

Eric Crosby said:


> Yes it is close to being the same. . My back wishes my verticle Langs were Horizontal Langs.



How long have you had your bees?

I've found quite a bit of information on the TBH's, but not a lot on the "long hives". They seem like another solid approach for those of us that are laz....er....don't like lifting heavy things.


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## catbackr (Jun 5, 2010)

Here is an interesting post on the Long Hive. I think I may try one of these this year.
http://www.beebehavior.com/modified_european_long_hive.php


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

Had bees 5years started with Langs. Tbh 4 years. Last year almost equal number of Lang and TBH colonies, but only 4 langs survived (not on natural comb) I have about 25 or so TBH colonies. I don't have any long hives, but my friend with whom I work bees with does and they seem to work well. Going forward I will be moving all colonies onto either natural comb or small cell. All colonies are treatment free from 2-4 years


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## Random Dude (Feb 25, 2015)

Eric Crosby said:


> Had bees 5years started with Langs. Tbh 4 years. Last year almost equal number of Lang and TBH colonies, but only 4 langs survived (not on natural comb) I have about 25 or so TBH colonies. I don't have any long hives, but my friend with whom I work bees with does and they seem to work well. Going forward I will be moving all colonies onto either natural comb or small cell. All colonies are treatment free from 2-4 years


Right on, right on.

Sounds like your rockin' it up there in the great white north.



catbackr said:


> Here is an interesting post on the Long Hive. I think I may try one of these this year.



Excellent. Many thanks.


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## AugustC (Aug 7, 2013)

isn't much of the observation regarding the "attentiveness" required around a TBH compared to a Lang related to foundation. I have a foundationless national (like a lang) and I can tell you now if you think they can make a mess in a TBH you should see what they can do to a foundationless framed hive. For the most part once the bees are making straight comb they carry on doing it, provided you have good comb guides and correct spacing. It is more work to get a colony start in the TBH "training" them to make comb the way you want but then you can open up the hive and let them have it.


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## catbackr (Jun 5, 2010)

I have tried pure foundationless langs and you're right. They can really make a mess. In my experience, getting the top bars started straight is really important. But after that, especially as they start to pull pure honey, the comb gets thicker and the tendency to crosscomb increases. Here is where you need to pay attention again and add spacers, wider bars or whatever other strategy you have. You just cant ingnore them.


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## Ennui (Jun 6, 2013)

I've always wanted to do, but the vast number of decisions about Lang hives and the large amounts of equipment seemed daunting. 8 or 10 frame, shallow, deep, medium, foundation? plastic? wax? excluders? etc.

With a TBH I read all you really needed was a box, some sticks, a bread knife and some bees and you are good to go. Langs had so many questions! Now I realize TBH has just as many questions, but they weren't all thrown at me at the outset so it was less daunting.

Then there are other reasons. My back sucks. I can go a month or two at a time where 20lbs might as well be 20 tons if I'm bending forward. My wife also thinks the TBH are pretty in the backyard and the Langs are ugly. I'm also only on a 3 acre plot and several of my neighbors still haven't realized they are bee hives on the hill, not some weird bird house.

I have 4 hives and I get only get 20-50lbs a year from each hive, but that's more honey than I eat and give away. I've still got 30lbs left over from last year and I'm going to have to figure out what to do with it or I'm likely to get in trouble for stealing the space in the storage room.

I crush and strain and some people complain about it, but I've got 3 gallon icing buckets (for free from my local grocery store). I just cut a hole in the bottom of one and fit in a metal strainer. It can hold about 6 crushed combs and I just leave it in my sun room for a couple days stacked on top of an empty one. As for the wax I was surprised to find out I know a couple people who spin their own thread and yarn. They love the wax. Other than that I've got a pile of clean wax slowly piling up for some future use.

My reasons are my own and they are good for me. I don't expect them to be applicable to others.

I would like to try a horizontal foundationless hive at some point, but that's another topic.


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## TheSorce (Feb 27, 2015)

Does anyone have any information on the winter survival rates of TBH's vs Langs? I've had two friends lose their TBH's while the Langs made it through the winter. I'm curious as to whether they can cluster better or worse in TBH's and whether additional insulation or work is necessary with TBH's in colder climates.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

TheSorce said:


> Does anyone have any information on the winter survival rates of TBH's vs Langs? I've had two friends lose their TBH's while the Langs made it through the winter. I'm curious as to whether they can cluster better or worse in TBH's and whether additional insulation or work is necessary with TBH's in colder climates.


TheSorce, Welcome to Beesource. This year I lost 1 of 2 Langs and 1 of 4 top bar hives. You will hear over and over in beekeeping that the cold will not kill the bees but moisture will. I removed the first top bar at the front of the hive and sealed up the openings on the sides to limit drafty conditions. The warm moist air goes out the top keeping it out of the hive. Over the 4 years I have been keeping bees, the survival rate between the two has been comparable.


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## catbackr (Jun 5, 2010)

Agree with dudelt. I put vent holes in the ends of my top bar hives and that really helps with the moisture. I've had both types for about 10 years and would say the survival rate is comparable. IMO the tales that topbars can't survive cold temperatures are not based in fact.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I have a slightly better survival rate on TBHs, but it isn't large enough to be significant. My TBH loses were in the fall due to mites, not cold.


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## jennSAL (Jan 6, 2014)

shannonswyatt said:


> Price is a big driver for me, and I just kind of like them. My cost for a full size hive using box store lumber is about $50 a hive. And I really don't like lifting supers, or anything heavy for that matter (bad back and general laziness).


Ditto. My beek group warned all beeks end up with bad backs. MIne's already dodgey (plus a stomach hernia to boot) so I'd harm my bees AND myself trying to lift supers with 8 or more frames.


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## Too bee or not to bee (Feb 27, 2015)

I loved my HTB. it was easy on back back, less burr comb, harvesting honey was easy (crush and strain method) and Cheap. Great for a beginner. i never used a smoker just spray bottle filled with water.

But the Mites and New England winters killed them.


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

I am starting my first ever hives this year. I am going with top bar hives for all the reasons I am sure have been mentioned in previous posts. Of all the reasons, the most important to me are the lifting of single combs due to my bad back, cost (I bought all the lumber I needed for two hives for less than $100), natural cell size for IPM reasons, and the fact that I want my hive management to be as minimally invasive as possible. Another reason is that my 9 y/o daughter wants to be involved and it will be easy to build a window into the hive for her to see the progress without disturbing the bees. My packages are scheduled for April 12. We can't wait to get started.


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