# Foul Brood Test Negative now what???



## CoryM465 (Jan 26, 2016)

I suspected foulbrood in my weak hive of my four, because of the dark colored comb and spotty brood. I bought a test kit from mann lake, ran the test this morning, and it came back negative. 

I just started beekeeping this spring. I'm at a loss as to what is causing this discolored comb, spotty brood, and the general weakness of the hive.

History: This hive came from a feral hive that swarmed 3 times. Their first swarm is my strongest hive. After three swarms I cut the hive out of the tree at the request of the landowner. 'This hive I'm referencing is a combination of the tree cutout and the 2nd swarm. After a month of watching them dwindle I combined the two. The third swarm was collected by a friend of mine (first hive as a beekeeper). The bees dwindle to nothing in his top bar hive. He has since purchased a 3lb package that is thriving.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Your frames are spaced a little wide and are plastic, a new weak colony dumped into something like that can take a while to build up, pull the frame spacers and butt the frames hard up. Hives like yours can recover for no reason. Is it a long hive?


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## CoryM465 (Jan 26, 2016)

Oldtimer said:


> Your frames are spaced a little wide and are plastic, a new weak colony dumped into something like that can take a while to build up, pull the frame spacers and butt the frames hard up. Hives like yours can recover for no reason. Is it a long hive?


They're hives I built to langstrom dimensions other than I adjusted the dimensions to make them squares. I'm using spacers from Kelleybees. I orignally had them without spacers and butted together. It was a nightmare working the hives. I recently, in the last month, swapped out some of the boxes for ones with spacers.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

I would get rid of the spacers...those are on;y meant for honey supers with drawn comb....why is it a nightmare working the hive without them? Eventually if the hive does become strong..They will pull out the honeycomb around the top of the frames to fill the void created by the spacers. Thus bring back the so called nightmare...probably worse than before because it makes interchanging frames more challenging, not to mention messy. 

The darker comb is brood cocoons, eventually it will turn black after about 1-2 years of brood cycles. I would have rubberbained the best comb from the cut-out to use in the hive. Starting them on just foundation is challenging, if the flow is winding down and the population of bees are small. 

It looks like they don't have much pollen, maybe try feeding them pollen sub and syrup...
How many frames of bees are in the hive?


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## CoryM465 (Jan 26, 2016)

burns375 said:


> I would get rid of the spacers...those are on;y meant for honey supers with drawn comb....why is it a nightmare working the hive without them? Eventually if the hive does become strong..They will pull out the honeycomb around the top of the frames to fill the void created by the spacers. Thus bring back the so called nightmare...probably worse than before because it makes interchanging frames more challenging, not to mention messy.
> 
> The darker comb is brood cocoons, eventually it will turn black after about 1-2 years of brood cycles. I would have rubberbained the best comb from the cut-out to use in the hive. Starting them on just foundation is challenging, if the flow is winding down and the population of bees are small.
> 
> ...


I prefer to work the bees with as little protections as possible. When they're in there that tight any misstep results in a smashed bees and a lot of pissed off bees. As they sit I can work them in shorts and sandals with occasional smoke.

There's 4+ frames of bees.

I intended to have used that comb from the tree, but was unable to (long story on starting a cutout to late in the day.)

Thanks for the advice. I'll try giving them pollen sub.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Get a frame perch. Look over the hive and select one that's easily pulled, hang it on the frame perch, then you got a ton of wiggle room to pull frames. 
Sounds like you pull and return, pull and return. That's not the best way. I could be wrong...50/50.
Make sure you return the pulled frame to the same location at the end of inspection. Should avoid crushing bees in this way.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

CoryM465 said:


> I prefer to work the bees with as little protections as possible. When they're in there that tight any misstep results in a smashed bees and a lot of pissed off bees. As they sit I can work them in shorts and sandals with occasional smoke.


There is what suits us, and there is what suits the bees. A modern hive is a compromise between the two but a langstroth hive does actually suit the bees quite well. But spacing out brood frames because you found things getting gummed up is not good for the bees and with your hive being weak and poorly and on new plastic foundation will be doing them harm, holding them back, making it hard for them to build comb, and causing it to be a do nothing, lacklustre little nuc.

The way to work the hive without killing bees or angering them is actually simple. If you push all the frames together in the middle and leave a bit of a gap at each side, when you work the hive it will be easy to pull out an outside frame, which makes it easy for you to insert your hive tool between two central frames and then lever them widely apart. You can then pull out a frame without rolling any bees. At this time your hive is very small and not propolised up much at all, if it grows they will propolise way more, and you will have to learn to deal with it.

Also working the hive without smoke, in shorts etc, is fine if that what you prefer, for you. But if it means the hive has to be set up in a way that is bad for them you may need to rethink. Because what I see are some bees that are trying their best, but really struggling.

Hope all that is taken in the spirit it is intended, end of day you can work the hive any way you choose. But that also involves choosing to live with the consequences.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

What did you use to test? A dead larva? 

Which test stick did you buy? There are two different kinds. For this hive you need the EFB test stick. With the loss of the other hives and how spotty your brood is, sounds like EFB. Test sticks are not reliable, it was shown here on beesource a member got a negative for AFB using a test stick later it came back from the lab positive for AFB. 

Send a sample in to the lab it free and a lot more reliable;

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=7472

Here's some pictures to compare;

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?326960-Terramycin-or


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

You are able to work a "4+frames of bees" hive in sandals and shorts, but I would be a little more cautious when it becomes a hive of dbl deep brood chambers with a honey super or two on top. Right now they don't have much to protect.

Alex


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Hey Cory- 
There are secondary bacteria that move in after EFB. You can do a field test and come up negative because those tests only check for a singular antigen. Doesn't mean you don't have or haven't had EFB. Likewise, if you check out Penn States publication on bee diseases it will mention PMS, and how some stages can appear to look like AFB. They refer to this as crud brood. This will really freak you out since you might get some sac brood like symtpoms, along with brood dying larval and prepupital capped. Instead of going crazy..... send a sample to Beltsville. Probably requeen, and reduce the entrance. You're not swapping frames out of it with other hives, so as long as it doesn't get robbed out you're probably ok for now.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Five things Cory,

1) When Oldtimer writes, I read it closely, and I've kept bees 20+ years.
2) Burns375 wrote some good thoughts too: Get rid of the spacers & Don't get bummed out about the dark comb, its normal.
3) Watch this video for proper inspection procedures.
4) SundayFarmer's remarks about PMS should get your attention, I hope you give them the reflection they deserve. Develop your own plan for mite management. A good plan is necessary for success -and don't look to fringe beekeepers for advice on dealing with mites, i.e., avoid "natural" & "organic" gurus.
5) You would be well advised to wear a veil and use smoke as your NUC develops so that when the hive grows and shows a sudden personality change, you are protected.



Oldtimer said:


> ...Hope all that is taken in the spirit it is intended, end of day you can work the hive any way you choose. But that also involves choosing to live with the consequences.


X2


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Lburou said:


> Five things Cory,
> 
> 1) When Oldtimer writes, I read it closely, and I've kept bees 20+ years.
> X2


I do too!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i didn't see where it was mentioned above, so i'll add that another drawback to the frame spacers is that they create too many little spaces for small hive beetles that the bees can't protect.

i started with them but they were tossed when i discovered that. i learned that jamming the frames tight together and then learning how to torque them apart properly with the hive tool actually made it much easier to do inspections than prying them out once they got propilized into the spacers.

another problem is that if you want to move a hive to another location the frames flop back and forth and there's no way to jam them tight against one side, so you risk injury to the queen during the move.

a sting to the cornea can happen in the (lack of) a blink of the eye and is potentially blinding not to mention would cause absolutely the most pain possible for any human being to suffer. consider at least wearing a veil.


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## CoryM465 (Jan 26, 2016)

First off I apologize for ignoring this thread. I've been dealing with other issues that have taken precedent. A quick (as was possible) engine swap in the truck and the full time job was keeping me busy. 

I took some of the advice on this thread and feed them a pollen substitute, ultra bee patties to be exact. Actually I feed all four of my hives. It gave them all a boost, especially this one. I saw a noticeable increase in orientation flights from this hive and an increase in bee population albeit not as noticeable. They have started drawing new comb as of late. I'll get some pictures posted soon.

I had meant to send a sample off for testing, but never got around to it. If I get a die off this winter from this hive, will I still be able to send comb in for analysis?

Now for those up in arms on my comments on minimal protection. I'm not some tree hugging hippy who has a problem with it or treatment. For one I don't like how the veil obstructs my view and two it's freaking hot here, I don't want to wear anything more than I have to. I do smoke, no more than I have to, but more than I'd like to due to my own hiccups. I wear sunglasses which protects my eyes as the bees can not see them. It also seems to decrease the random attacks from that one or two over zealous bees. 

I have no problem with treatment, I do intend to treat for mites soon. However, I do not want a hive that is genetically incapable of surviving common bacterias.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

"I'm at a loss as to what is causing the discolored comb". 
That is normal. Let me explain:
When a queen lays an egg it hatches into a larva (worm/grub). That larva eats a few days then pupates. It makes a little cocoon like a butterfly and that discoloration you're seeing in your honeycombs are spent cocoons. They get layered up from generations of baby bees and will turn black in time. That's normal too. 
Read up all you can about how bees make baby bees, queens, how the bees make new queens etc. 
The more you know about these bugs and their reproduction cycle the more powerful you are at keeping them alive.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Bees maintain their brood nest at 94 degrees F, or at least, do their best to maintain that temperature. Spacing brood nest combs wider than 'bee space' means any given number of frames takes up more space than it would otherwise. That is going to increase the effort required to heat/cool the brood nest to the target 94 degrees. "Extra" bees that are needed to maintain environmental conditions are then not available to forage or raise brood (recognizing that foragers are not nurse bees, but both castes can work as heater bees). Foragers hauling additional water for cooling are not available to forage.

As for _Oldtimer_'s comments, see my signature ...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

If they were mine I'd treat for mites and feed them. Bet that magically things would start looking better so long as they're strong enough to recover.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Cory, I'm happy to hear your hives rebounded with feeding. 

One note of caution about the pollen substitute: Small Hive beetles prefer the patties for laying eggs. Watch for tiny larva on the pollen patties around the edges where the bees can't patrol, especially in weak hives. In our area, we put small pieces in the hive to make it easier for the bees to control the beetle larvae. HTH 

P.S. Let us know how/when you make a move against your mites. Mites feed on larvae and adults, injecting 20+ viruses into their hemolymph in the process of biting and sucking. Those viruses can have devastating effects on your bees. We can't cure viruses, so the next best thing is to reduce the mite population. In my view, your brood pattern is consistent with parasitic mite syndrome. We are approaching the time of year when the mite population is at its peak. Manage them soon.


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## CoryM465 (Jan 26, 2016)

Pictures from a couple of weeks ago.


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## CoryM465 (Jan 26, 2016)

Lburou said:


> Cory, I'm happy to hear your hives rebounded with feeding.
> 
> One note of caution about the pollen substitute: Small Hive beetles prefer the patties for laying eggs. Watch for tiny larva on the pollen patties around the edges where the bees can't patrol, especially in weak hives. In our area, we put small pieces in the hive to make it easier for the bees to control the beetle larvae. HTH
> 
> P.S. Let us know how/when you make a move against your mites. Mites feed on larvae and adults, injecting 20+ viruses into their hemolymph in the process of biting and sucking. Those viruses can have devastating effects on your bees. We can't cure viruses, so the next best thing is to reduce the mite population. In my view, your brood pattern is consistent with parasitic mite syndrome. We are approaching the time of year when the mite population is at its peak. Manage them soon.


Thanks. Actually my next point of business was to determine the best time to treat in my area before going into winter and what was suggested to use for a small 4 hive operation. Any suggestions?


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