# Dan Rather report on bee shortage in Calif almonds



## Keith Jarrett

Hope you got a chance to see this report on CBS, from a commercial stand point, what did think positive or negitive?

http://youtu.be/oJ5riRX1_3w


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## Barry

What video?


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## Keith Jarrett

It sure is quite out their.........


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## Greg Lowe

I thought he presented things like I understand them to be. What do you think Keith? Did he nail it?


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## snl

Keith Jarrett said:


> It sure is quite out their.........


Ok, I'll be the one to do it.....do you mean "quiet?"


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## Ian

That was put together very well,

very happy to see a story put together from many different angles, so nice not to hear the ra ra ra of the anti chemical lobby groups


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## Keith Jarrett

snl said:


> Ok, I'll be the one to do it.....do you mean "quiet?"


I'm sorry. I'm one of those guys that have trouble pecking at the key board. 

I thought the report was a "cry wolf " as loud as you can. I am not very happy that this is what the bee industry has become.


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## Ian

was the bee shortage this year as dramatic as they represented?


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## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> I'm sorry. I'm one of those guys that have trouble pecking at the key board.
> 
> I thought the report was a "cry wolf " as loud as you can. I am not very happy that this is what the bee industry has become.


I too hate whining, and complaining. 
but you must relate to some of what the report had to say?


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## Tina 2Bees

Pretty depressing. There were certainly elements of truth, but they were mixed with mass generalizations, with an incomplete story. There were high bee losses and that is true. But, they didn't discuss the fact that there also good bees that came out of those same conditions. 

Sunflowers may have saved our summer. There was no sweet clover, the alfalfa was eaten up by weevels early on, and the drought dried up anything else. A late shot of rain caused the sunflowers to kick out a late flow of nectar which was basically the honey crop. The bees that were not near sunflowers had shrunk to small clusters and had high mite loads by the end of the summer, and those hives were the hardest hit this winter. The hives on sunflower nectar were the strongest hives this spring going into and coming out of almonds. 

Tina


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> but you must relate to some of what the report had to say?


'relate' that report and me was like water & oil.


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## Keith Jarrett

Tina, very well said.


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## Ledge

Tina 2Bees said:


> Pretty depressing. There were certainly elements of truth, but they were mixed with mass generalizations, with an incomplete story.


I think that is simply what modern television journalism has become. Since it needs to be appealing to the average person watching TV at the time it airs, it has to be pretty light on real intellectual content.


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## Ian

there were a lot of high profile beekeepers in that report,


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## Ian

Ledge said:


> I think that is simply what modern television journalism has become. Since it needs to be appealing to the average person watching TV at the time it airs, it has to be pretty light on real intellectual content.


oh ya, I agree, 
but I have to say it was a lot better than most reports on beekeeping issues


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> there were a lot of high profile beekeepers in that report,


Name a couple Ian


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## Ian

Adee, Johnston, Miller, 

Im a Canadian, and I have herd of these guys

do you not consider these guys high profile?


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## LSPender

I watched and IMO the show hit the nail on the head as a state of our industry and some of the challenges we all face.

I have personal experience with the situation and know or know of everyone that was interviewed. 

One thing I will share is that Lyle Johnson in the past has sounded like some on this site that PPB has been the problem, but reality has caught up with him as with many of us, as the quote goes" these times are a changin"

As to the sunflowers, yes 70% of all my hives that where anywhere near sunflowers died and the hives furthest away agriculture look great. 

I personally believe all that was stated on the show is accurate because I have had these conversations with all of the beekeeper interviewed , either first or second hand!


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## Keith Jarrett

Adee had MITE problems, Lyle & I had a three hour phone call today, & Miller

John Miller called me a couple years ago, he said a freind of his sent him my way, said he was losing 30% over the winter and that my sub would help. So when we spoke I recomended two 5 pound rounds in the fall. John said do you know how much money that is... I said do you know how much there paying for dead outs in the almonds.

Here's the deal Tony Noyes & John Miller run the same places ND summer winter in cellars in ID and almonds CA, but have very different out comes, ones feeds heavy sub & one does not.


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## Keith Jarrett

LSPender said:


> One thing I will share is that Lyle Johnson in the past has sounded like some on this site that PPB has been the problem, but reality has caught up with him as with many of us, as the quote goes" these times are a changin"


Lyle was refferring to Kenny Haff, Kenny had trouble because he chase the sunflower all summer, a mono crop wont work as a pollen source.


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## Ian

I had a discussion with a beekeeper neighbour here the other day. Most of our conversation was related to hive nutrition, 
I do believe our we need to direct more attention towards this issue
and the reason why? pesticides and pathogen and environmental pressures


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## Ian

are you going to fill some big sub contracts Keith?


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> Most of our conversation was related to hive nutrition,


Ian, the majority of your immune system is in your gut, if your gut is not in balance guess what.


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> are you going to fill some big sub contracts Keith?


This is not about sales, this is about running bees (livestock).


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## Keith Jarrett

Have you noticed it's the same folks crying wolf.


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## squarepeg

i'd like to order about 5 lbs keith, do you have free shipping? 

i think the nutrition angle is right on. mine have been on virtually 100% natural forage for almost two years, and are surviving without mite treatments.

the locations in and around monoculture ag just couldn't have the forage diversity that is necessary to get all those necessary amino acids.

the fact that well nutritioned bees do well in these areas suggests it's more a question of diet that exposure to insecticides.

keith, you may have saved the world as we know it. too bad it's a proprietary secret.


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## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> Have you noticed it's the same folks crying wolf.


no, but Im not down in Cali land. 

was there the shortage that the report implied?


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian said:


> was there the shortage that the report implied?


Yes, we were short.

P.S. SP good post.


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## benstung

Reading this is just redicolous. I mean this isnt a new thing. its not just bees. cant you see it??? its a trend, i suppose you can explain why there are not any pheasants left or why every other specie is in decline. Dont you see the big picture?There is no good forage land left for anything.
How could you begin to say these people in this video are wrong? They have been living it for many years. Its obvious these chemicals are having a negative effect on the bees.

And you cannot make a honey crop on fake man made pollen SUBSTITUTE. It is still a SUBSTITUTE for the real thing. I want real honey from bees and if there is no natural pollen left then there is no nectal either. People are so happy to have good raw honey and there is no substitute for that.


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## irwin harlton

It sure is quite out their......... perhaps it is a "silent spring" Keith , ItS been a dam cold one here ,if fact its still what I call winter. I though the video was pretty realistic to what has occurred, from what I can ascertain. Lye Johnson is probably right, plant walnuts.The 4.1 count of bees on the grading system in that yard,orchard, would not be your typical grade or average grade of all California bees this year , would it? I know Mr Blue boxes would be double or triple that.I find it incredible that we can put a man on the moon but can't find out whats killing the honeybee.Some disastrous losses in Canada too, and as this winter continues mine climb as well.I wonder what percentage of commercial keepers do not go to almonds


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## Keith Jarrett

benstung said:


> There is no good forage land left for anything.


Ben, forage area is shrinking that's the main problem, I agree 100%. Most are running more bees with last pasture an this is showing up in high winter loss rates. To combat this some keeper's are on a feed program with great success. Corn & soy beans are all over the place, so if they were blaming that I would understand, but there not.


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## irwin harlton

I thought the report was a "cry wolf " as loud as you can. I am not very happy that this is what the bee industry has become.


Keith you better jump on that crying band wagon....how else you going to get $250/ hive next year for almonds

Is it all about money Keith? OR is the industry suffering


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## Oldtimer

There is a myth that a healthy hive can resist mites. Mites actually do well on healthy bees, assuming they are a non resistant strain, course the bees won't stay healthy too long.

Mites weaken the bees directly by sucking the blood out of them during larval development. Also, mites vector all kinds of viruses. Of course, to bees weakened in such a way, chemical poisons and poor nutrition can be the _coup de grass_. 

But mostly, keep mites out of the hives, and they can handle everything else way better. Why did all those guys lose hives? In my opinion if the truth gets out, it will in large part have to do with mites. There are reasons why this is sometimes not fully discussed, though.

In deference to Keith though, I've heard some good things about his feed, and if bees are indeed lacking something and Keith's product can supply it, then this will boost, or save, the hive, in proportion to the need. But from where I am, I don't see a food supplement alone saving a hive from mites.


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## Keith Jarrett

irwin harlton said:


> OR is the industry suffering


The industry has it's head stuck in the sand.


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## Keith Jarrett

Oldtimer said:


> But mostly, keep mites out of the hives, and they can handle everything else way better. Why did all those guys lose hives? In my opinion if the truth gets out, it will in large part have to do with mites. There are reasons why this is sometimes not fully discussed, though.


Very well said, OT


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## Ian

well, I thought Dan Rather did a good job

but if they had Keith on there, talking about nutrition, then it would of covered everything


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## squarepeg

ot, i'm guessing that good nutrition doesn't directly suppress mites, but it makes the bees stronger so that they can afford the extra energy expended with hygenic behavior, plus it boosts their immune system to better handle the viral infections.


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## Oldtimer

Agreed, good point.


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## Oldtimer

Ian said:


> well, I thought Dan Rather did a good job


Same. In that his job is to present an interesting and entertaining article for the non beekeeping public.

It was well researched, kinda. The scope of the article was not to do an in depth analysis of exactly what went wrong with the hives that died, and it's probably asking too much from such a reporter, to expect that.


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## irwin harlton

I seem to recall that 57% of all US keepers income came from pollination, only the remainder came from honey production, this from what I know is a given gold mine...if you got bees and strong healthy bees .What your saying Keith is that this is relatively easy, the facts and figures are not saying this. PPB is it Keith?


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## Ian

oh boy, Irwin, you sound cranky, just like me, . . . Got to get spring started already here !


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## Keith Jarrett

Did you guys happen to see where Mr. Perez (almond farmer) was not worred about the bee shortage because he had hives, then they started cracking those yellow emty boxes on Perez orchard. This whole thing is a nightmare.


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## Ian

Oldtimer said:


> Same. In that his job is to present an interesting and entertaining article for the non beekeeping public.


when ever someone asks me about bees and how they are doing, when I start talking to them, their eyes glaze over. 
Dan presents this stuff to the same people,


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## Ian

Keith Jarrett said:


> Did you guys happen to see where Mr. Perez (almond farmer) was not worred about the bee shortage because he had hives, then they started cracking those yellow emty boxes on Perez orchard. This whole thing is a nightmare.


ha ha ha, ya, your right thats funny


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## Keith Jarrett

irwin harlton said:


> I seem to recall that 57% of all US keepers income came from pollination, only the remainder came from honey production, this from what I know is a given gold mine...


One would sure think, Irwin


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## Ian

$200 plus pollination fees next year?


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## LSPender

So Kieth what is it ? A nightmare now? or nutrition or mites or what? 

I am confused by your last post about almond grower, have you now changed you outlook?

There is a earlier post about the big picture and we need to keep that in mind, I have a current concern about my live stock and how to survive, but I also ask a big picture question, if the pesticides are being delivered in the root system thru water ( Systemic) WHAT IS IN OUR FOOD CHAIN THAT WE EAT EVERY DAY and how is this effecting our health?

I also ask what has changed? If it is now nessesary to treat for mites 3 to 4 times a year and feed pollen substitue 15 pounds plus a year what has changed because in REALITY a short time ago we did not do this and had incredible results. check out the pictures of the bee beards on trucks for 30 years ago in video. So I ask again what has changed?


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## Haraga

What is the latest news about the self pollinating almond trees that may be coming in the future?


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## Flyer Jim

Haraga said:


> What is the latest news about the self pollinating almond trees that may be coming in the future?


Not self pollinating, self fertile. They will need bees but not as many. Not that many being planted ,the market does not like them.


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## Keith Jarrett

LSPender said:


> So Kieth what is it ? A nightmare now? or nutrition or mites or what?
> 
> I am confused by your last post about almond grower, have you now changed you outlook?
> 
> So I ask again what has changed?


Your first question Larry, it's a black eye for all of us when they show dead out hives in high paying almond pollination on TV.
Your second question, everything has changed, crp is being pulled out, alfalfa is out, corn & soy beans are in. Farm machinery is so much faster these days that the farmers don't get behind like they used to so many blooming crops don't bloom. Look around, so much has changed, Larry we are both Calif keepers, look how many more bees there are in Calif, look at how many locations now have twice as many bees as they used to. Look at the video, look at those small trucks.... now all you see is 48 ft step decks.

We are asking so much from so little.


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## irwin harlton

what has changed?

In 2007 glyphosate was the most used herbicide in the United States agricultural sector, with 180 to 185 million pounds (82,000 to 84,000 tonnes) applied, and the second most used in home and garden market where users applied 5 to 8 million pounds (2,300 to 3,600 tonnes); additionally industry, commerce and government applied 13 to 15 million pounds (5,900 to 6,800 tonnes).[5] While glyphosate has been approved by regulatory bodies worldwide and is widely used, concerns about its effects on humans and the environment persist.[6] wiki
thats more monoculture crop ,no weeds, NO diversification
How much neonicotinoids, are used in the north American market?
iTS THE WHOLE ENVIRONMENT THATS TAKING A KICKING, NOT ONLY BEES

The bees are the canary in the coal mine


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## mnbeekeeper

Keith Jarrett said:


> Your first question Larry, it's a black eye for all of us when they show dead out hives in high paying almond pollination on TV.
> Your second question, everything has changed, crp is being pulled out, alfalfa is out, corn & soy beans are in. Farm machinery is so much faster these days that the farmers don't get behind like they used to so many blooming crops don't bloom. Look around, so much has changed, Larry we are both Calif keepers, look how many more bees there are in Calif, look at how many locations now have twice as many bees as they used to. Look at the video, look at those small trucks.... now all you see is 48 ft step decks.
> 
> We are asking so much from so little.


 GREED, on both sides of the story........ kieth if your main goal is to have the healthiest strongest beehives i say more power to you. but like lspender said. there is a bigger picture and people need to see that. like you said all the good forage land is gone. so,...... we should just stay silent and run the bees like live stock. pump the antibotics mitacides and subs and fake feeds. i really do think your a smart guy. maybe you should have been on the show. didnt they call you.......


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## Ian

I think your missing Keiths point completely. 
got to feed your bees, 

or we can all go on whining and crying til someone gets those farmers to step back 50 years


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## mnbeekeeper

ian, talking to you is like walking in circles in a closet. you never get anywhere!!! i get what hes saying. do you get what im saying. we need to make the whole country aware what the effects we are having on our environment. sure farmers can do their job faster now. but there is a demand for what they are doin. if you take away the demand for cheap crappy food then no one will do it cuz you make no money at it. so bottom line teach your kids to eat there veggies and not mc donalds. and maybe someday we can go back to family farms and not mass produced food. but really that wont happen and things are just goin to get worse and worse. and really i dont see how you can put a positive spin on that. sure i can keep good strong hives at what ever cost and i can make money doin it and i can be rich and buy a corvette. but in the end was it worth it.


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## Ian

irwin harlton said:


> what has changed?
> 
> In 2007 glyphosate was the most used herbicide in the United States


Yup, thats a big one for grain farmers. I use to remember our fields almost completely taken over by thistle and quack grass. Now I can not imagine farming with those kind of losses, our fields are clean, due to RR Canola. 
It sucks for beekeepers trying to make honey off of weeds, but its not the beekeepers weeds, remember,


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## Ian

let me know how you make out with that mnbeekeeper


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## JRG13

Glyphosate degrades quickly, I doubt it has any lasting affects on most stuff. I know it has issues with amphibians etc... and you will ingest some in RR crops but I doubt it's affecting bees other than wiping out a lot of plants that would be potential sources of bee food. My first impression of the vid was, well, we dropped bees off then don't look at them for awhile, come back and they're dead.... maybe it's time to adjust that practice and make sure your bees are in good shape every month. I think fall nutrition is key as well as maintaining clean equipment and knowing what your mite issues are. Also, all the beekeepers say the same thing, bees look great in fall, well what happened then and why if the bees were in such tip top shape do you pull a 4 frame average come almonds?? If my bees looked great in fall and came out of winter with 4 frames average, I'd start thinking really quickly what looking good in the fall really means and what you need to do to make sure they stay that way.


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## irwin harlton

it's a black eye for all of us when they show dead out hives in high paying almond pollination on TV.


As the old rancher said "you got live ones, ..... your going to have dead ones"
Seems the odds are increasing in this business...things are changing


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## RAK

mnbeekeeper said:


> we should just stay silent and run the bees like live stock. pump the antibotics mitacides and subs and fake feeds.


Fake feed. lol. I feed my bees big macs and they look very good. And yes it is definitely worth it because my hives are packed with bees and don't look like those disgusting hives in the video with a handful of bees. 
A good beekeeper is one who could adapt to today's world. Were not living the 60's. We have mites and much more to fight with. You either do whats right or dont do and lose those numbers every year. 

Do bbuilders that use fake protein also have fake muscles? Might want to ask them.


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## Keith Jarrett

mnbeekeeper said:


> GREED, on both sides of the story........ . there is a bigger picture and people need to see that. like you said all the good forage land is gone. so,...... we should just stay silent and run the bees like live stock. pump the antibotics mitacides and subs and fake feeds. i really do think your a smart guy. maybe you should have been on the show. didnt they call you.......


MNBeeker, Yes, Greed does play a role, when almonds pollination went up guess what adee's numbers went way up along with the rest of us. Right now the oranges are in full bloom here in Calif and guess how many hives are down there.... too many for a honey crop.

Should we stay silent.... what we should do is NOT have these beekeepers get on TV and say it's the chemicals that are killing the bees when in fact it's a shortage of good bee pasture that is at the root of the problem. All the folks that had good pasture last year, there are pretty happy with there bees. I know here in Calif, MNBeeker it's going to be another long summer for us, we are very dry, But I am not going to blame something else other than the poor conditions that the bees are in. 

Bee on TV pushing that agenda, thanks but no thanks.

Wish all the best this summer.


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## irwin harlton

Appreciate your opinion and for telling it like it is.......now if i could only see another video of those bees being fed your special mix...makes my mouth water ...must be part bear


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## Ian

irwin harlton said:


> Appreciate your opinion and for telling it like it is.......now if i could only see another video of those bees being fed your special mix...makes my mouth water ...must be part bear


Go national with it Keith, . . . go, International !


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## Keith Jarrett

It's almost 6 am Monday morning here, got to shake for Phil AKA "honey4all", then shake for Randy Oliver and maybe John Jacob aka "JBJ", yes MAJOR bee diaster here.... we've been trying to shake a 1000lb a day or avg 5,000lb a week. I just don't get it, but then again I'm not chasing coffee shop meeting.


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## Ian

there is a market for packages up here you know! Id buy your bees!
but thats another topic completely different ,
what are you selling 3 lbs for?


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## dback

Keith Jarrett said:


> Adee had MITE problems,


Keith.....Brett and I met for dinner a couple of times during almonds and I spoke with him again about an hour ago. He says that attributing all of his loses to mites would not be an accurate characterization of this winters losses. He believes about 25% would be directly attributable to mites but that his greatest loses (by far) were bees that were on sunflower. Now....is that poor pollen, no pollen, no nectar, chemicals, stresses that exacerbate mite problems.......there's the sixty four thousand dollar question. The rest he believed were related to stresses directly due to poor forage.....a subject that has been discussed here ad nauseam. I'm not defending or supporting anyone on this issue......also.....some where in one of these threads someone stated that Adee built those numbers after the price of almonds went up....I would disagree with that statement also as they had those numbers long before almond prices jumped. The almond price DID, however draw them to Cali. As it has many others.


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## jim lyon

dback said:


> He says that attributing all of his loses to mites would not be an accurate characterization of this winters losses. He believes about 25% would be directly attributable to mites but that his greatest loses (by far) were bees that were on sunflower.


I have heard from more than one ND beekeeper that their worst losses were bees on sunflowers.


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## dback

Yes.....he was not the first I'd heard it from either. Keith......I hope none of my response appears argumentative....it was only meant as conversation.


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## Beeslave

Anyone not seeing hive population loss because of treated corn seed is either 

A-Not observant enough to notice
B-lucky
C-very lucky

I'm very unlucky and observant. 5 yrs in a row at planting time I've observed population loss with the dead bees piling up in front of the hives.


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## Keith Jarrett

dback said:


> I hope none of my response appears argumentative....it was only meant as conversation.


Larry, well said, we need to get all of this out in the open so we can really track whats going on. First, following a mono crop is risky, I will not run bees on back to back crops, I know that more than one was injured chasing sunflowers in ND, they told me that was the only thing there was. So this is also a management call.


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## jim lyon

Beeslave said:


> Anyone not seeing hive population loss because of treated corn seed is either
> 
> A-Not observant enough to notice
> B-lucky
> C-very lucky
> 
> I'm very unlucky and observant. 5 yrs in a row at planting time I've observed population loss with the dead bees piling up in front of the hives.


Or D- had their bees in another state at corn planting time. Such is the case with the majority of migratory hives.


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## Beeslave

Dandelion bloom unfortunately happens at planting time. In WI quite a few Beeks come here for that build up and/or honey crop. It sucks that the farmers are legally able to apply pesticides known to kill bees directly on plants in bloom while being worked by pollinators.


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## dback

Keith Jarrett said:


> a mono crop is risky,


I have hives that left almonds and went directly to another crop that is the ONLY source of pollen they will see until early Nov.....I pay dearly for it. We have no choice (IMO) but to supplement feed.


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## Keith Jarrett

dback said:


> but to supplement feed.


now your speaking my lanuage.

But on a more serious note, you know Larry I live in Sutter Creek, after almonds I drive up hwy 99 to Stockton take hwy 88 right through the cherries & apples, I wont stop until I get to the green foothills with oak & buck brush pollen. Could I do the cherries an not get hurt.... maybe, but I know what oak & buck brush pollen does, it comes down to management, what risks is the keeper willing to take.


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## mnbeekeeper

Beeslave said:


> Dandelion bloom unfortunately happens at planting time. In WI quite a few Beeks come here for that build up and/or honey crop. It sucks that the farmers are legally able to apply pesticides known to kill bees directly on plants in bloom while being worked by pollinators.


its going to be very interesting to see what this late, or maybe more normal spring brings. im sure the farmers are getting very antsy.... should be a very good build up. i hope!!


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## EastSideBuzz

Ian said:


> when ever someone asks me about bees and how they are doing, when I start talking to them, their eyes glaze over.
> Dan presents this stuff to the same people,


The rather report is not perfect but, it does help with those glazed over looks I get when I answer the questions.

I think Keith is Spot on though on the nutrition and mites being the way to survive until we get the systemic's under control and the monocrops. I am all for not killing all the noxious weeds all the states seem to want to get rid of. I like knotweed and blackberry which is on the hit list.


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## busy bee apiary

jim lyon said:


> I have heard from more than one ND beekeeper that their worst losses were bees on sunflowers.


I always notice a larger winter loss in my hives that I move to the sunflowers in August. However more years then not the main flow is about over by then so it's move them to the flowers and pull an extra 40-80lbs per hive or don't and be happy with what you have. My hives off the sunflowers will generally have a 20% winter loss compared to 5-10% on the others. With the price of honey it makes sense to me. After the sunflowers these hives are all kept separate all the way to the almonds as they will take a little extra care (feed/pollen) to get there. Even with this extra care they will generally go into almonds 4 frames behind the rest.
Sunflower pollen is 13-14% protein with Tryptophan and Methionine being below a 1/3 the recommended amount.


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## camero7

This paper may explain why your bees are doing so poorly on sunflowers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3210585/


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## wildbranch2007

Beeslave said:


> Dandelion bloom unfortunately happens at planting time. In WI quite a few Beeks come here for that build up and/or honey crop. It sucks that the farmers are legally able to apply pesticides known to kill bees directly on plants in bloom while being worked by pollinators.


the farmer has to feed his kids too you know.


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## Keith Jarrett

busy bee apiary said:


> Sunflower pollen is 13-14% protein with Tryptophan and Methionine being below a 1/3 the recommended amount.


Now you got me thinking Dereck, this sounds much like cotton in Calif, I have an costomer that buys sub in the middle of the summer he takes a large amount and is a very good keeper, so one year I ask him, Bob why are you buying this sub so early for, Mr. Brandi said, Keith, in cotton you have a great stimulating flow but with little pollen to go with it, so, you will pull supers of honey & at the time the bees will look GREAT, then 2-4 months later if you don't sub feed (at the time of bloom) you will bee left with 4-5 framers.
Any thoughts on this, does this sound like sunflowers?


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## Tina 2Bees

What makes no sense to me is why some beekeepers can have high losses running bees in the exact same area as other beekeepers not seeing the losses. 

We (meaning my folk, I work closely with them in the summer) run share crop bees for 4 different beekeepers in the summer. In 2009-10 our own bees crashed hard, and we lost 70% in California before it was all said and done in the almonds. I was adamant that it had to have been the sunflowers. But, we came to find out that the share crop beekeepers that we had set up in the exact same area/county we had our bees in that summer did not crash. Maybe slightly higher losses because of the previous summer's poor bee forage conditions, but NO mass crash like we had. 

This year, same deal. Following up with the share beekeepers, one crashed this year and he will be the first to say it was mites. The other three did fine. The neighbor beekeeper crashed this year, he had mite problems all last summer. Some other beekeeping neighbor bees did fine this winter. All of the bees made the majority of their honey off of sunflowers. 

Another thing I wonder about is the actual sunflowers. What is the percentage of seed treated sunflowers in different regions, and is there is a difference in bee losses in areas where there are confection sunflower fields vs oil sunflower areas. 

Tina


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## Keith Jarrett

Derick, your still in Calif & I know you have plans on stopping by my shop, but, I will supply a fair amount of Nutra Bee sub to run some feild trials in sunflowers, ones with sub an ones with out. If Derick isn't up for this maybe somebody else will chimm in.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

wildbranch2007 said:


> the farmer has to feed his kids too you know.


very well said, WB


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## JRG13

Tina, is it seed treatments, on sunflowers or do they not spray them?


----------



## oklabizznessman

Down the road neighbor planted couple hundred acres of canola. Are there issues with this crop also?

Should I be concerned?


----------



## JRG13

I don't think canola is treated with neonics but I could be wrong, Ian would know.


----------



## camero7

I believe most canola is treated seed.


----------



## Ian

The seed treatment we use on our canola is called Helix, this is what the lable on the bags say

HELIX XTra®
Seed Treatment is a liquid seed treatment for use on canola and mustard for early 
season control of flea beetles, seed-borne blackleg, seed-borne Alternariaand the seedling disease 
complex (damping-off, seedling blight, seed rot and root rot) caused by Pythiumspp., Fusariumspp. 
and Rhizoctonia spp. 
This product is for use in areas with high flea beetle pressure where extended early season control 
is required.
GUARANTEE:
Thiamethoxam ..........................................................20.70%
Difenoconazole ...........................................................1.25%
Metalaxyl-M and S-isomer..........................................0.39%
Fludioxonil...................................................................0.13%
Contains 1,2-benzisothiazolin-3-one at 0.012 % as a preservative.


We basically use it to protect the newly emerged plants from flea beetles, gives us two week protection
sure beats spraying the crop two or three times to get the little buggers


----------



## Ian

Thiamethoxam is listed as the main agent neonicotinoid class insecticides.

We have been using this treatment since the late 90's after counter-5-G was discontinued.
This seed treatment has been used pretty much on every canola acre up here for at least 15 years


----------



## dback

Keith Jarrett said:


> Now you got me thinking Dereck, this sounds much like cotton in Calif, I have an costomer that buys sub in the middle of the summer he takes a large amount and is a very good keeper, so one year I ask him, Bob why are you buying this sub so early for, Mr. Brandi said, Keith, in cotton you have a great stimulating flow but with little pollen to go with it, so, you will pull supers of honey & at the time the bees will look GREAT, then 2-4 months later if you don't sub feed (at the time of bloom) you will bee left with 4-5 framers.
> Any thoughts on this, does this sound like sunflowers?


OK....this is interesting. I know Bob well.....we have discussed this 'some'. A large percentage of our hives will be on melons all summer surrounded by cotton. It has been literally years since I've seen a bee in a cotton blossom.....not one. To top it off, they have basically bred the nectaries from the leaves with only a few left at the base of the bolls for nectar. The old DP 90 that was such a high producer here no longer exists. Now we are left with a mono culture of melon pollen all year.....supplement feeding is essential IMO. So .... the problem....when high temps and high humidity hit (July, Aug, and Sept) putting a 3 lb patty in a hive that is under say 8 frames is a death sentence due to wax moth larva. I watched with considerable interest as Dr Wardell worked on his "liquid" diet when in Tucson but neither his diet or our attempts at a similar product, worked well under these conditions. Feeding in an inside feeder left most of the "protein" in the bottom of the feeder......using an 'inverted' feeder was problematic due to expansion, rapid fermentation in the heat and various other problems.....still searching.

Edit: Thank goodness SHB have not figured out how to survive here!.....yet!


----------



## Beeslave

wildbranch2007 said:


> the farmer has to feed his kids too you know.


So you think it's ok for them to no-till plant on top of plants in bloom......dusting those blooms with pesticide as the bees are working them because they have kids to feed? 

With that line of thinking it should be ok to render their planting equipment inoperable because the pollinators(insects)have kids to feed.lol


----------



## Ian

Beeslave said:


> So you think it's ok for them to no-till plant on top of plants in bloom......dusting those blooms with pesticide as the bees are working them because they have kids to feed?


we dont seed into blooming plants,


----------



## busy bee apiary

Keith Jarrett said:


> Derick, your still in Calif & I know you have plans on stopping by my shop, but, I will supply a fair amount of Nutra Bee sub to run some feild trials in sunflowers, ones with sub an ones with out. If Derick isn't up for this maybe somebody else will chimm in.


Keith, that is exactly what I had in mind. I would like to know if the poor pollen is the limiting factor or if there's another reason for what I notice. As some people have posted earlier about the lack of any honey flow all summer, it is very possible that the hives pollen stores were almost completely depleted. If the pollen is lacking this might be a bigger problem in dry years versus wet were as on wet years they would have plenty of pollen stores going into sunflowers and they wouldn't have as many pollen colecters. As for supplying the pollen(free) no need, i'll order the pollen as planed and i will get back to you this fall on what I find.


----------



## Tina 2Bees

JRG13:
They do spray the sunflowers. As long as they use Asana, we don't move bees. It has a bee repellant in it and the bees generally stay away from the sunflowers for a bit. Have not seen any problems from it.


----------



## Beeslave

Ian said:


> we dont seed into blooming plants,


They do here.....seed over clover and/or dandelion. After planting they will spray round up or other weed killer. Sometimes that won't be until a few days later.


----------



## wildbranch2007

Beeslave said:


> So you think it's ok for them to no-till plant on top of plants in bloom......dusting those blooms with pesticide as the bees are working them because they have kids to feed?
> 
> With that line of thinking it should be ok to render their planting equipment inoperable because the pollinators(insects)have kids to feed.lol


the farmer is not doing anything wrong, the label on the corn says nothing about removing bloom before planting, besides there his fields, and he feels just as you do.



Beeslave said:


> How about the wild feral colonies? Who treats them? No one, so AFB is everywhere! To many people get into beekeeping to "do there part" and keep pollinators in their area. Too many people preaching chemical free(I would but my bees feed my family!) so the "newbees" do just that. They know very little about bees(and even less about "signs" of disease) and are also a cause(of several causes) to the problem. So that said, I will use preventive treatments. Now unless every asspect of your life and lifestyle is 100% chem and pollutant free, all natural everything please preach to someone else cuz I'm just trying to keep food on the table and looking for a recipe!!!


----------



## Keith Jarrett

wildbranch2007 said:


> besides there his fields,.


well said, you can move bees... but you can't move fields

it's bad enough when the goverment is telling you how to run your land, now the beekeeper want's in on the action.


----------



## Ian

you guys have no idea how much we rely on using Helix (canola seed treatment)
two weeks protection from flea beetles,

beekeepers should also consider that a two weeks protection from the crop duster
otherwise there would be a steady dose of Furadan on the lands, not good


----------



## Birdman

Beeslave said:


> So you think it's ok for them to no-till plant on top of plants in bloom......dusting those blooms with pesticide as the bees are working them because they have kids to feed?
> 
> 
> 
> What pesticides do they use at planting no till? Why are treating with pesticide at planting? When we farmed we only used pesticide if we had pest. I don't treat my potatoes , tomatoes or any other thing I grow, when I plant, I only treat when pest are present. I don't think the farmers are using pesticide at planting time, without reason. To just use it without cause, it cost to much to just use without reason.


----------



## Beeslave

Keith Jarrett said:


> well said, you can move bees... but you can't move fields
> 
> it's bad enough when the goverment is telling you how to run your land, now the beekeeper want's in on the action.


I respect you for your knowledge of managing honey bees but.....that's kind of an ignorant statement considering it's all pollinators that suffer. With a little management change from the crop farmer this problem could be avoided. Apparently you think it would be ok for a farmer who has crops(any crop) adjacent to crops you are pollinating to knowingly apply things on "HIS" property that cause damage to his neighbors property.

It's easy to say something is ok when it doesn't affect you.


----------



## Beeslave

https://www.pioneer.com/home/site/us/products/corn/seed-treatments/treatment-options/

The seed treatment dust falls onto the plants that are blooming.


----------



## Birdman

Beeslave said:


> I respect you for your knowledge of managing honey bees but.....that's kind of an ignorant statement considering it's all pollinators that suffer. With a little management change from the crop farmer this problem could be avoided. Apparently you think it would be ok for a farmer who has crops(any crop) adjacent to crops you are pollinating to knowingly apply things on "HIS" property that cause damage to his neighbors property.
> 
> It's easy to say something is ok when it doesn't affect you.


If the guy next door applied herbicide to my yard, he would repair the damage. When the guy next door wants to apply pesticide to his yard then I hope my bees avoid his yard. The farmer next door has his job, just like you. Do you go talk to all the farmers around your bee's, does the farmer next door know you have bee's next door.


----------



## wildbranch2007

Beeslave said:


> I respect you for your knowledge of managing honey bees but.....that's kind of an ignorant statement considering it's all pollinators that suffer. With a little management change from the crop farmer this problem could be avoided. Apparently you think it would be ok for a farmer who has crops(any crop) adjacent to crops you are pollinating to knowingly apply things on "HIS" property that cause damage to his neighbors property.
> 
> It's easy to say something is ok when it doesn't affect you.


ok lets list what the farmer could do different. #1 he could spray roundup and kill all the weeds. but gee you have your hives there for the honey from the weeds,
and then he might have to spray again after he plants the corn. to expensive and time consuming.
#2 he could buy a new planter that prevents the seed coating from getting on the weeds,
or all the beeks could chip in and make the farmer happy and buy him a new planter.
or #3 he could tell the beeks to move along to some other area until he's done planting.
any other ideas I've missed?


----------



## Hamp54

I want to preface this by saying that I'm a small time hobbyist and I'm not even qualified to carry a hive tool for most of the people on this forum. That said…I live in the Midwest where corn is king and soybeans are a close second. It seems to me that when the government decided to get in the business of subsidizing corn (a food crop) to be made into fuel for vehicles, all bets were off. Whatever it takes to produce more "gasohol" is just OK with them.

30 years ago farmers were doing away with fence rows to gain a little more yield per acre and that was about it for pheasant and quail habitat. The bunnies disappeared, the coyotes moved in and the deer population exploded…now the deer are like the rabbits used to be except they are a bunch harder on your car when you hit one. 

I'm in the process of moving to central Illinois so I spent a little time driving around up there looking for an apiary location…Corn, soybeans and housing subdivisions as far as the eye can see.

Bee habitat…what bee habitat?


----------



## Haraga

Beeslave, have you ever farmed a significant amount of land before?


----------



## cg3

Birdman said:


> Do you go talk to all the farmers around your bee's, does the farmer next door know you have bee's next door.


Bingo!


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Beeslave said:


> but.....that's kind of an ignorant statement considering it's all pollinators that suffer. It's easy to say something is ok when it doesn't affect you.


Holly Molly...... lol gee where do you even start.

Shannon, let me start with your "ignorant statment". I have run bees in the central valley of Calif for more than 30 years, this is the most diversed agriculture valley on earth, more fruits,nuts,dairy, row crops ect... there is more food produced here than anywhere else and guess what come from all that production..... Sprayes like you never see it. Try walking in my shoes first before throughing rocks in a glass house.


----------



## Beeslave

My original part of this discussion was about what is happening here where I live.....not about farming practices in CA. Specifically my comment was about the planting practices of the corn crop and the seed treatments. How much no-till corn is planted in CA Keith?

Wildbranch- Option 1.....they spray it with round up anyways

CG3 and Birdman-most are aware and some understand what is happening.

Haraga-I grew up working on farms. I've been here in the country my whole life. I have friends who make a living and support their families cash cropping. I've helped them fix their equipment......I've had conversations with these friends on how some practices affect the pollinators. Those aren't the ones causing the trouble. It's the ones who don't care as long as it doesn't affect them that cause the problems.


----------



## Ian

Beeslave said:


> .I've had conversations with these friends on how some practices affect the pollinators. Those aren't the ones causing the trouble. It's the ones who don't care as long as it doesn't affect them that cause the problems.


neonicotinoid insecticides are used very extensively and have been for a long time now, a lot of farmers would not consider these types of seed treatment insecticides lethal to the bees. you are referring to the use of neonicotinoid insecticide use right?


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## JRG13

I think you hit it Wildbranch. It's the farmer's land, if you don't want your bees exposed to the stuff during planting, move em til they're done.


----------



## Beeslave

Poncho/Clothianidin....it's been used as a seed treatment for 10 yrs
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothianidin


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## Birdman

Beeslave said:


> Poncho/Clothianidin....it's been used as a seed treatment for 10 yrs
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothianidin


That report said some class of this chemical has been used from the 1700s. I would say if it stays in the soil and leaches into other plants :ws:


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## Haraga

Beeslave it sounds like you have only signed the back of the farm check and never the front of the farm check. Until you have signed the front then you have minimal room to critique farm practices.


----------



## Beeslave

Yup......running 2 loads of bees and never wrote a check.lol

Did you find that 1 hive for your friend?


----------



## Haraga

Two loads of bees and you are criticizing farm practices?


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## benstung

this is a beekeeping forum, so my question is why would you folks ever defend anything that is or has been or will be harmful to bees. 
There is a reason why there are people farming large amounts of land organically. And guess what they have huge brand new combines just like the other non organic corn farmers. the only difference is in the profit margin. how come you smart guys dont ever talk about how the government now subsidizes drain tiling. 
If you dont care about anything but money then you would cut down every tree line, plow over every stream and run drain tile.
(pump your hives full of crap and forget this reality) 
But on the other hand if you love this job and get more out of it than just money you would show some compassion for the less fortunate. 
or just continue to tell us how good you are and wait for the whole thing to IMPLODE.
Why would Johnstons bees do well in the mountains???


----------



## benstung

Haraga said:


> Two loads of bees and you are criticizing farm practices?


two loads of bees can net some serious money.
so maybe you can tell us what you meant by that.


----------



## Haraga

Now that's the response I expected.


----------



## benstung

these farmers dont NEED it to be so easy for them. they need to be forced to be smart. and the only way is to stop giving them everything on a silver platter. They are like an invasive specie with no predators and they are getting out of control.


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## Haraga

I guess you don't know what you don't know. Let me let you in on a secret. Farmers are not smart. And that includes myself. If I were smart I would not be farming. I would be signing the back of someone else's check.


----------



## Allen Martens

benstrung

I work with 30-40 different farmers a year. Wonderful, accommodating people I find. Often times if they need to apply an insecticide they will choose a less effective one to protect my bees.

Do I pine for the old days of vast bee pasture - sometimes. Are they coming back? Not with 7 billion people on the planet.

I'm not a big fan of biting the hand that feeds me.


----------



## Birdman

benstung said:


> these farmers dont NEED it to be so easy for them. they need to be forced to be smart. and the only way is to stop giving them everything on a silver platter. They are like an invasive specie with no predators and they are getting out of control.


I can see you know nothing about farming, if you think its easy. I bet if farms quit using pesticides and herbicides, you would starve.


----------



## benstung

Hey bird i dont eat pesticides and im trying to cut back on herbicides. 

Are you a commercial beekeeper?


----------



## Beeslave

Haraga said:


> Two loads of bees and you are criticizing farm practices?



Dang right! With what I've seen repeatedly I have good reason to.


----------



## Birdman

Not commercial, out of control hobbyist should hit 100 hives this summer. I think I might have a problem.


----------



## Birdman

I guess, I am a commercial beekeeper with only 100 hives.


----------



## Hamp54

Haraga said:


> I guess you don't know what you don't know. Let me let you in on a secret. Farmers are not smart. And that includes myself. If I were smart I would not be farming. I would be signing the back of someone else's check.


One of these days I'm going to win the lottery. Then I'm just going to keep farming until it's all gone.


----------



## Beeslave

Haraga said:


> Let me let you in on a secret. Farmers are not smart. And that includes myself.


Thanks for pointing that out so I can explain a little more detail for you. I'm going to question practices that are done for no other reason then GREED. I see the results of those practices every year. It's not all farmers. It isn't as easy as "just wait till the crops are planted". Sometimes it can be almost June before they are done. Last year it was the last week of May....I had 100 colonies at my house.....there was a field down the road about 3/4 mile that had vegetation knee high and was full of white clover bloom......great I thought.....my bees were flying heavy in that direction and nothing but sunny Skys in the forecast. A few days later that field was no-till planted over the bloom. After that I was seeing dead bees piling up.....those hives struggled after that.....I had queen losses higher then normal. I moved those bees to 3 different honey production yards. At the end of the season-GUESS WHAT? The hives that came from there had the highest loss %. That's what happens every year. It's not all yards but when I notice yards with that type of kill during planting they have the highest deadout rate at the end of the year....even requeening the ones that fail early the end result is the same. It isn't even the same yards year after year.


----------



## hpm08161947

Haraga said:


> I guess you don't know what you don't know. Let me let you in on a secret. Farmers are not smart. And that includes myself. If I were smart I would not be farming. I would be signing the back of someone else's check.


Must be a different kind of farmer up around Medicine Hat than we have down here. Most of these guys farms thousands and thousands of acres, with many 100,000 dollar tractors and million dollar combines... when they are not hedging soybeans.... they are smart, or not many bankers would talk to them... Big Ag is here to stay... whether we like it or not.


----------



## Beeslave

Birdman said:


> That report said some class of this chemical has been used from the 1700s


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothianidin

Reread the whole thing. This time pay attention to what you're reading and not the thoughts you already have in your head. Pay real close attention to the toxicity section.....click on it and read the info on the toxicity!


----------



## Haraga

Then I would say you are lucky because all you need to do is find out what chemicals were in that field and do not put your bees near those chemicals again. Problem solved.


----------



## Birdman

Beeslave said:


> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothianidin
> 
> Reread the whole thing. This time pay attention to what you're reading and not the thoughts you already have in your head. Pay real close attention to the toxicity section.....click on it and read the info on the toxicity!


It said the same thing on both pages, maybe you need to read the first page That some form of this chemical has been used since the 1700. I bet that old stuff before the EPA had some kick.
Are you mad at the farmer down the road, because he planted his field no till, would it matter if he plowed it under then planted. Sound like your mad because he kill your forage area. When you loose forage area the fewer hive's that area would support. If this happens every year I would move at that time of year.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Hey.... what have you guys done to my thread....lol 

I'm taking cover under the bus while you guys reload.


----------



## Birdman

Sorry Keith. How's your bee's.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Birdman no worries mate, I'm just sitting back taking this all in . 

Oh, what was I doing today..... shake shake shake....


----------



## benstung

hey bird if commercial beekeeper was in the dictionary it would read

Commercial beekeeper- intuitive, tenacious, inventive, independent, and most important makes livelihood off beekeeping ALONE.

It is a lot different when you and your loved ones rely on the health of these little bugs.


----------



## benstung

its spring you had better bee doing the shake shake shake. there are so many ways to do this job successful. a person in the midwest who wants to make a honey crop is so much different than someone who wants to farm bulk bees and pollinate crops. if an old queen is still laying today in a warm climate the only thing you could do to keep em in the box is to shake shake shake.


----------



## Bradley_Bee

Hey Keith I sent you a private message about Nutra Bee feed, can you check your inbox and get back to me please.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

benstung said:


> its spring you had better bee doing the shake shake shake. there are so many ways to do this job successful. a person in the midwest who wants to make a honey crop is so much different than someone who wants to farm bulk bees and pollinate crops. if an old queen is still laying today in a warm climate the only thing you could do to keep em in the box is to shake shake shake.


Ole Ben, lol your comment are truly one of one kind, last year at time I was about 100 miles south of you with 1000+ hives, But as you say " there are so many ways to do this job successfully" .


----------



## Birdman

ben I can see your still upset that I'm not a commercial beekeeper. Maybe the greedy farmer down the road from you will loan me the cash to go commercial. No he has to feed his family too.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Birdman, no worries I'll loan you the cash. but I'm still reading crash course #137


----------



## Beeslave

Birdman said:


> . Sound like your mad because he kill your forage area. When you loose forage area the fewer hive's that area would support. If this happens every year I would move at that time of year.


Sounds like you really need to pay attention to what you're reading. Not one time did I say anything about loss of forage. Thanks for showing your close minded ignorance.


----------



## Birdman

Keith, you could just send a truck load of bee's.


----------



## Haraga

Your bees are on his field and you are wanting to change the way he farms? If you don't like it, do the right thing and buy or rent your own land and put your bees on it. As long as your bees are on someone else's land you have no recourse.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Haraga said:


> If you don't like it, do the right thing and buy or rent your own land and put your bees on it. .


Well said, been wanting to say that for a long time.


----------



## benstung

Haraga said:


> Your bees are on his field and you are wanting to change the way he farms? If you don't like it, do the right thing and buy or rent your own land and put your bees on it. As long as your bees are on someone else's land you have no recourse.


its not just wanting to change one farmer or even 100. the key here is sustainability. It is not sustainable for mother earth to be polluted so willy nilly with out any RECOURSE


----------



## Beeslave

Haraga said:


> Your bees are on his field and you are wanting to change the way he farms? If you don't like it, do the right thing and buy or rent your own land and put your bees on it. As long as your bees are on someone else's land you have no recourse.


Do you have any knowledge what so ever of what is being discussed. A few posts back you yourself commented how much you were lacking when it comes to the capability of thinking.

Keith...seriously? I honestly thought you were more open minded.

Follow the scenario closely.....

Last year it was the last week of May....I had 100 colonies at my house.....there was a field down the road about 3/4 mile that had vegetation knee high and was full of white clover bloom......great I thought.....my bees were flying heavy in that direction and nothing but sunny Skys in the forecast. A few days later that field was no-till planted over the bloom. After that I was seeing dead bees piling up.....those hives struggled after that.....I had queen losses higher then normal. I moved those bees to 3 different honey production yards. At the end of the season-GUESS WHAT? The hives that came from there had the highest loss %. That's what happens every year. It's not all yards but when I notice yards with that type of kill during planting they have the highest deadout rate at the end of the year....even requeening the ones that fail early the end result is the same. It isn't even the same yards year after year.

Abridged version- FIELD FULL OF NECTAR PRODUCING PLANTS IN BLOOM, BEES WORKING AREA HEAVILY, FARMER NO TILL PLANTS WITH PRODUCT THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE POLLINATOR SAFE, BEES CONTINUE WORKING THOSE BLOOMS....BRINGING IT BACK TO THE HIVE.....FOR MONTHS THAT FOLLOW HIVES HAVE ISSUES.

If you, anyone not one person in general, doesn't see what is happening in what I just wrote about I don't know what to say.

A product is approved in a way where the manufacturer says there is no danger to non-target species yet the scenario, which is factual observation, proves them wrong.

Nothing against pesticides in general......nothing against loss of habitat....This isn't even about just ME. It's about our industry coexisting with other industries that share the same environment we do.

This happens over a very widespread area. It's not as simple as just moving down the road to another property.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Beeslave said:


> Keith...seriously? I honestly thought you were more open minded.


I am very open mined, an a big fan of the free market place, I saw just 12 months ago a flood of bees without homes to place in the almonds, 12 months later a national bee disaster as they say. Myself, our numbers are the same many, many of my sub costomers are the same as well, I feel I have a pretty good finger on the pulse of the bee industry.


----------



## Ian

no Keith, Beeslave meant he/she honestly thought you were more anti everything minded,


----------



## Haraga

Since you don't rent or own your own land to put your bees on then change what you can and accept what you can't and move forward.


----------



## Birdman

Beeslave said:


> Sounds like you really need to pay attention to what you're reading. Not one time did I say anything about loss of forage. Thanks for showing your close minded ignorance.


That's the only thing I could come up with, for the greedy part, because I couldn't see where the farmer was greedy for planting his field. So I just figured the greed was because lost out on that honey. If you so smart become a chemist and fix the problem. By the way Clothianidin Would be chlorine, nitrogen, hydrogen, oxygen and sulfur. Which one of those are the killer.


----------



## Haraga

Beeslave what were the chemicals that the farmers used that knocked your bees back? Can you narrow it down to one chemical or are there several chemicals?


----------



## Beeslave

Ian said:


> no Keith, Beeslave meant he/she honestly thought you were more anti everything minded,


No Ian. I thought since Keith is so intelligent....and I honestly mean that with no sarcasm.....that he would see what I'm discussing has to do with all pollinators. It's nothing about "anti everything". 

What I've been arguing is defect in a regulatory agencies decision to allow something that previously was never used in the way it is used now.

Apparently Keith would be ok if I purchased land next to one of his large holding yards and knowingly did what I could to attract and kill as many of his hives as possible. After all....in a free market the more you can eliminate of the competition the better chance you have gaining his part of the market.


----------



## Haraga

What was the farmer using on his field?


----------



## rhaldridge

Just in case there's someone on Beesource I haven't irritated yet, I'll point out that there is a legal concept called "attractive nuisance." If, for example, you have a large beautiful swimming pool in your back yard filled with piranhas, a neighborhood kid who sneaks over your fence and get eaten will result in you getting sued out of your socks. If beekeepers weren't the redheaded stepchildren of agriculture, a case could be made that the farmer who failed to till in his clover prior to treating it with something that kills bees could be liable for damages for similar reasons.

I suppose if the affected beekeeper has pollination contracts, then not only has the farmer damaged the hives of that beekeeper, he has damaged the livelihood of the farmer who depends on those hives for pollination.


----------



## Oldtimer

rhaldridge said:


> Just in case there's someone on Beesource I haven't irritated yet,


Is there anyone on the planet?


----------



## wildbranch2007

Beeslave said:


> A product is approved in a way where the manufacturer says there is no danger to non-target species yet the scenario, which is factual observation, proves them wrong.
> 
> . It's about our industry coexisting with other industries that share the same environment we do.
> 
> .


 interesting that you use the word coexisting, yet it's only the farmer that has to change his practices.
did you have the dead bees and or comb tested to see what killed the bees. Maybe the farmer used a product that was Illegal, if so then you would have a recourse, right now all 
we have is speculation.


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## Haraga

It appears to me that Beeslave has determined that his bees were set back from chemicals used on a particular field. I was wondering why he didn't find out what the chemical was so that he didn't put his bees in harms way again?


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## Keith Jarrett

Beeslave said:


> I thought since Keith is so intelligent....
> 
> Apparently Keith would be ok if I purchased land next to one of his large holding yards and knowingly did what I could to attract and kill as many of his hives as possible. After all....in a free market the more you can eliminate of the competition the better chance you have gaining his part of the market.


Shannor, 1) I'm just one keeper amoung many & I put my pants on one leg at a time, no different than anyone else.

2)it's not about eliminating anyone, it's about freedom of choice to do on your land(with in the law) as you see fit to make living.

Competition... I have that in the sub market... do you know right now the folks by in MN are running around Calif saying that there is just as good as Nutra Bee, I don't need to stoop to there level, I just consentrate on doing my job the best that I can do, the rest will sort itself out.


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## Birdman

Keith, where can I get your sub, I have been using mega bee, how does it compare to Nutra bee.


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## Beeslave

Because it's year after year. Not always the same area. Not all crop farmers operate the same. I am not the only Beekeeper to notice this in this area. I've reported it the last few years to a state inspector. He called me last spring to notify me he was seeing it in his hives when his neighbor no-tilled over an alfalfa field with dandelion in bloom. It's not easy to pinpoint where the source is when often these fields are hidden from view.

This is far from "Willy nilly speculation". It is proven that fugitive dust from treated seed can/will harm bees. It is proven that the affects myself and others see are the same effects on bees where studies using clothianidin are done. My field observations are over an extended period in various areas with the same common denominators again and again.

Keith stated "it's not about eliminating anyone, it's about freedom of choice to do on your land(with in the law) as you see fit to make living."...........this is exactly what I've been trying to get across......the procedure and materials being used are not working the way they were approved to to be used. That Is the flaw.


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## wildbranch2007

Beeslave said:


> It's not easy to pinpoint where the source is when often these fields are hidden from view.


but if you have the dead bees and or comb tested, then you would have some idea of what is killing them, that is not the case now nor will it be in the future unless you do your part.


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## Haraga

It sounds like you know of two specific fields that have been direct seeded. Go find out what they used on those fields!


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## sjvbee

If you're in the cornbelt sooner or later you are going to have some sort of problems from what I have seen it is when the farmer uses an airplanter and conditions are right the dust settled onto Dandelion's in adjoining fields. The dust carries the talc used to lubricat the seed picks up seed treatment. Is the farmer wrong not in my opinion. Do we need to work to solve the problem yes


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## squarepeg

if the farmers are planting crops that depend on pollinators i would think they would be interested in working cooperatively with the beekeepers.

it shouldn't be that hard to locate what is being planted and when within a 2-3 mile radius of a beeyard.

i'm with keith and the others, the farmer has every right to use his land as he wishes within the law.

i'm with haraga and wildbranch, it looks like a good opportunity for meaningful investigation. find out what is being used, and see if it is showing up in your colonies. assuming the rules are being followed, this is the more likely path to get them modified.

with all those losses shannon, looks like you've got everything to gain and nothing to lose. what you need is diplomacy. if i were in a similar situation i would approach the farmers with respect and civility, and involve the state apiarist.

and, you just might end contributing valuable knowledge that will help all of us advance our understanding of what is causing some of our losses.


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## Haraga

Squarepeg I agree with what you are saying. As a farmer and as a beekeeper that's what I would do.


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## wildbranch2007

one interesting thing that I found when researching the coated seeds, due to this thread, that I need to get addressed b/4 planting season. Last year the farmer brought up a trailer truck full of seed, with I think an auger in it to offload the seeds into the planter, they parked it right in front of my hives for the duration. I had no problem but they left a pile of treated seeds in front of the hives. according to the label for treated seeds they are required to bury the seeds, so I have to go have a talk with them. the label instruction is to protect the birds and animals, but not burying them is a violation of the label.


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## Ian

watch mike, typically the seeds that are treated (canola, corn , sunflowers soybeans )are not handled in that kind of bulk, typically they are bagged or handled in small enough volume that augers are not used. 

This seed is worth a fortune, spills are very expensive and if spills happen, the seed usually will be swept up for use. 

Crops that are handled in volume, like wheat or cereals are handled with augers, and typically are not treated with anything, sometimes will see wheat seed spillage

I would suspect you saw a fertilizer truck, which they were augering fertilizer into the air seeder, small piles of fertilizer typically happen with spillage.


Know what your complaining about before you complain otherwise . . .


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## Haraga

wildbranch2007 said:


> one interesting thing that I found when researching the coated seeds, due to this thread, that I need to get addressed b/4 planting season. Last year the farmer brought up a trailer truck full of seed, with I think an auger in it to offload the seeds into the planter, they parked it right in front of my hives for the duration. I had no problem but they left a pile of treated seeds in front of the hives. according to the label for treated seeds they are required to bury the seeds, so I have to go have a talk with them. the label instruction is to protect the birds and animals, but not burying them is a violation of the label.


If the seed was brought in bulk in a grain trailer, where did you find the label? I have only bought it by the bag and last year each bag was 650$. 1 bag did 10 acres. When I used to seed the old Polish variety it was moved from the bin to the truck and the seed was not treated. 
Surely Ian most people know the difference between a blended fert and canola seed. With the price of seed I don't know anyone that would leave it on the ground.


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## Ian

Haraga said:


> Surely Ian most people know the difference between a blended fert and canola seed. With the price of seed I don't know anyone that would leave it on the ground.


even fertilizer around here is swept up, that stuff aint cheap,

we do re screen the sweepings before sending it through the machine though, plugs things up otherwise.


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## Haraga

Since there should be some investigation on the beekeepers behalf it looks like this horse is dead.


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## Birdman

dead bee's now we have dead horse's.:lookout:


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## wildbranch2007

Ian said:


> watch mike, typically the seeds that are treated (canola, corn , sunflowers soybeans )are not handled in that kind of bulk, typically they are bagged or handled in small enough volume that augers are not used.
> 
> This seed is worth a fortune, spills are very expensive and if spills happen, the seed usually will be swept up for use.


looked like corn to me, it even tasseled at the end of the year. I was amazed that they left the corn just laying there also. Can't comment on the label on the bag as there were no bags, but the seeds were treated, they were also the same color as the ones planted at another farm where I looked at the bags(doesn't really mean much) but no one that I have seen plants untreated seed. they had two trucks one for the corn and one for the fertilizer, not sure about the auger as I really didn't pay all that much attention to them at the time, will now though. If its that expensive, maybe next year I'll sweep it up and sell it back to them. When I was up at the field the other day it actually looked like the planted something over the field after they harvested, and they don't use rye up here normally, really makes little difference, I'm moving the yard out this spring and replacing it with a nuc yard that won't go in until after corn is in.


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## wildbranch2007

wildbranch2007 said:


> If its that expensive, maybe next year I'll sweep it up and sell it back to them.


better idea, if they leave a pile this year I'll bag it and send it up to you guys, just have to pay the postage. Also as to sweeping up seed and fertilizer, They aren't as neat down here.
the other farm where I looked at the label of the corn its rented land, the farmer had them dump the fert. on the road coming in(dirt), they then dug up the fert and road with a front end loader making a large hole with conservatively a few hundred lb's or more of fert laying around, first rain storm the hole filled up with funny colored water, I was to meet the landowner and put a battery in his tractor, called him and told him not to drive through the hole, he was not a happy camper as he had to walk the battery in to the tractor. He now has a wonderful new road with crushed stone, and a new farmer this year.


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## Ian

wildbranch2007 said:


> looked like corn to me,


thats not good, 
one of the reasons why we are so " neat and tidy " is because piles of treated seed are cattle killers


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## Ian

wildbranch2007 said:


> the farmer had them dump the fert. on the road coming in(dirt), they then dug up the fert and road with a front end loader making a large hole with conservatively a few hundred lb's or more of fert laying around, first rain storm the hole filled up


what a gong show, 
just remember there are farmers out there that take pride in their work, even farmers who use treated seed
and when you work with these guys, you will be able to tell the difference between the two, so that you will be able to stay away from the "gong shows"


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## Birdman

We spilled fertilizer one year maybe 50 pound, the deer licked a hole there large enough to burry a full size pickup. It took a few years, It was a great place to hunt.


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## Nick Noyes

Ian said:


> thats not good,
> one of the reasons why we are so " neat and tidy " is because piles of treated seed are cattle killers


Why does the treated seed kill cattle but not bees?


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## Ian

not so much now, since we stopped using counter-5-G,
never seen bees working treated seed


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## jean-marc

The treated seed does kill bees. Actually it is the coating on the seed that contains the neonicotinoid that is toxic to insects, cows too apparently. I'll take Ian's word that it does kill cattle, after all it is a poison.

Jean-Marc


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## JRG13

it'll kill bees if it's dislodged and spread via dust etc... or if they work the seed for some reason.


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## Ian

We use air seeders, we use these seed treatments, I have my hives along side a lot of my fields during planting. I have never experienced a problem with bee die offs like the one mentioned in Ontario, we have seeded in all kind of conditions,
Now bee death to Furadan during planting, yes


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## JRG13

You guys can still use furadan?? Maybe it was just Cali banning it, I thought the U.S banned it in general.


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## davidsbees

I don't know what happened to this thread I thought it was about major bee losses. I know 5 big queen producers in northern CA that have lost around 50% of their bees not to mention a lot beekeepers and it was not from PPB, from not using Nutrabee, not getting their mite treatment on, and so on. Something is killing bees, causing then to dwindle or crash. I had a few loads go from 12-14 frames in Dec to 1-3 in Jan. I also had loads with less 5% loss to 2 loads that had 90% loss. In CA as in other states there is a lot of chemagation in tree fruit, citrus, melons, berries, any crop you can run a dripper line. The problem is you don't know when it's being applied, most are neonic's. long term exposure to sub-lethal doses are not known. They are also finding that viruses are taking on a life of their own. It would be nice to run up to the hills but in central CA the CA Buckeye will take your bees out and in a drought year it can be very bad. Back in the 70's I remember going out to the trucks in morning and the bee beards hanging off the truck touching the ground and they had some pretty nasty chems back then.


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## jim lyon

What differences were there in management, location, or any other variables you would care to share with us between the hives that had the biggest losses versus those with just a few?


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## Keith Jarrett

davidsbees said:


> from not using Nutrabee,


Can you please expand on this David, I'm not fallowing you here.


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## cg3

Not to stir things up, but in this and similar threads I see people reporting others' alarming losses and first hand reports of how well bees did on almonds.


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## Ian

davidsbees said:


> bad. Back in the 70's I remember going out to the trucks in morning and the bee beards hanging off the truck touching the ground and they had some pretty nasty chems back then.


what other conditions back then might of helped with that? 
clean wax, very few in hive treatments, no mites, no virus, no nosema, lots of bee pasture, . . . .


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## Keith Jarrett

David where did you go? 

This is what I do know, about what you mentioned about keepers up in N Calif as it relates to NutraBee.

One large outfit that keeps bees, But there main operation is farming almonds & walnuts they use NutraBee sub but they feed a minimal amounts, in fact as soon as nut harvest starts they pull the crews from the bees and shift them to the nut harvest.

Kevin Ward, he feeds NutraBee, he also is on Joe Traynor's grading program, he tops out, also Joe this year had Kevin move some bees out of some orchards because another keeper had low grades and put some of Kevin's bees in too up the bee counts.

Leonard Pankratz (cam-am) also feeds large amounts of NutraBee sub, last week Leonard said he was shaking 7-8 lb avgerages the bees look great.

John Miller & Tony & Nick Noyes both run there outfits very close, ND summer, ID winter cellears, CA almonds, BUT, one feeds heavy NutraBee sub and one does not, Tony Noyes called me this year and said, Keith, last year on 8,000 hives we had a 3% cull, this year we are up to 5% cull whats going on. 

I could go on & on, NutraBee is not wonder bread or Miracle grow..... you do have to feed more than a pound to get a build up.


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## jim lyon

I kept bees in the 70's. The main issues were AFB, nosema, pesticide sprays, and (as always) changing farming practices. Overall there was, of course, more bee pasturage than today but different crops would come and go, so as the saying goes "the only constant is change". We were much more at the mercy of local conditions in those days as it wasn't feasible to move your bees unless you were one of the few set up with pallets and forklifts. It's kind of ironic because in those days I constantly heard about the old days but that was the 30's through the middle 60's. Certainly it was much easier to get a crop back then and also much more work to remove and extract it and it was worth much less. I heard all the stories of the old days often enough to conclude that it wasn't ever exactly a panacea. Every year comes with new challenges some beekeepers seem to adapt better than others. Part of it is luck but much of it is finding beekeeping practices that work in today's world.


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## davidsbees

Not fallowing ???? A few years ago a friend said the best thing for bees is "diesel smoke" you need to move your bees where they will do the best did not matter if you hand loaded, boomed or forked. Some times it worked out for the better other times it was from pan to the fire. That has not changed. The bee all treated the same, mite treatment on regular basics, feed and protein supplement when needed. I also put in 100 to 200 queens a week (queens weak link). Farming is very diversified you just don't what the bee are getting into 1-5 miles away. Sent some comb sample to Judy Wu came back with lots of chems some that have not bee used in over 20 years so if contaminated comb is the problem it would have more uniform. Most of my comb is over 40 years old. Bees built great in almonds did 100's of splits in the almonds to keep them from swarming now the splits are two boxes of bees ready to make a orange honey crop (God willing) And some early pollination. I my experience nothing is better than the spring pollen flow to build up bees. The winter is when the problems seem to show up. 10-20 years ago you did the meds put your bee to bed in Aug-Sept in Jan they were as you left them. Where did I go? it's morning I had breakfast.


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## Keith Jarrett

davidsbees said:


> feed and protein supplement when needed.
> 
> The winter is when the problems seem to show up. 10-20 years ago you did the meds put your bee to bed in Aug-Sept in Jan they were as you left them. .


David, I agree with most of what you said, I think where we start seperating success rates is the intensity of ones outfit. In certains times of the year, mainly Aug-Nov we are on overtime. I always found it amazing how some can always make it to all the meetings like clock work, I have often asked myself, what I'm I doing wrong, I just can't find the time... There also is definitely a pattern, the same keepers that have problems & the same keepers that don't.


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## G B

I think Jim L has it right in post 189.. Things are changing and they are gonna keep changing. Neither The EPA or anybody else is not gonna come to my rescue. Therefore it is upon me to take care of my self, nobody else will.I think that the pesticides are a contributing factor, but there is nothing I can do about it short term.maybe in the long term the legislative/corp. wheels will grind into action. I am a small Beek working hard to expand my operation. I was Advised by a successfully Beek when I first got into this business to keep the mites off the bees and on good forage ( or feed) when needed. I am going to keep doing just that because anything else is not going to keep my bees healthy and profitable.. Best of luck to all GB


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## jean-marc

I agree with your two points GB. Keep the mites low and the feed/or forage. I might add that it is better to keep the feed on before they need it. If bees get to a point of starvation or semi sarvation it can take a couple of generations of heavy feeding before they turn around. I find it best to keep the feed on before the really need it. It seems that by doing that we do not get to many unpleasant surprises.

Jean-Marc


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## RAK

Heres the way I look at this.
August... Not much pollen around and not much nectar. Some are feeding Syrup while others like myself give them some 5lb sub and move them to the peppermint. August and September are crucial months for the majority of winter bees. The bees with a teaspoon of sub or no sub at all dig into their pollen stores and feed that to the young bees and if your stored pollen is full of harmful substances then dont be surprised of all the die offs. Where as the bees that are forced to feed the sub that contain nothing harmful, are full of bees in Jan. Im not talking about any brands here. The guys running 8 loads feeding bee pro had good bees as well.

Also some say the mites were not the issue because they treated in the fall. Well the bees were really infected in the spring last year because of the good early spring and all those viruses dont die if you do one treatment in the fall. I mite have killed the mite but what happens to the virus inside the bee? Only a few months away from winter and the bees are full of viruses that should have been taken care of in the spring.


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## Keith Jarrett

Many thanks too all that took the time chimed in, wheather I agree or not different views makes us all think and thinking is good. Looking down the road from here, locally we are very dry here going to be another tough year here in Cali. I hope it's better where you are, I trully think the BIGGEST challenge going foward for medium to large outfits is good summer pasture, their is alot less than there use to be and it seems to be shrinking.
Good luck to all this summer, Keith


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## Chip Euliss

Keith Jarrett said:


> Many thanks too all that took the time chimed in, wheather I agree or not different views makes us all think and thinking is good. Looking down the road from here, locally we are very dry here going to be another tough year here in Cali. I hope it's better where you are, I trully think the BIGGEST challenge going foward for medium to large outfits is good summer pasture, their is alot less than there use to be and it seems to be shrinking.
> Good luck to all this summer, Keith


I'm with you Keith. Well fed bees can handle more insults from whatever the cause (just like us) whereas poorly fed bees will not, mostly from compromised immune systems. "Fat" bees that have access to many flower species should logically have a better chance of balanced nutrition since each species of pollen has its own unique mix of amino acids, providing they are good pollens for bees (versus poor pollens from wind pollinated plants like corn for example). Stresses come from many sources--parasites, diseases, pesticides, etc and if the bees are stressed already (poor nutrition for example), the influence will be greater. Probably no single answer which is why so many different views expressed here because many factors are likely involved. BUT good food is an essential part of being healthy for bees and for us. That's why our moms made us eat those foods that we didn't like when we were kids!!!


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## LSPender

And Chip with that info, what do we now do? Tough to get that nutrition from corn & soy beans. Note: I agree with the info.

This is a question.


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## jim lyon

I think we can all agree that a lack of forage is a huge problem for beekeepers. I have never seen a bee in a corn field and only rarely in soy beans and I check many times a summer. Occassionally I will hear one in a bean field but it's extremely difficult to get under the canopy and actually find one on a bloom.


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## Chip Euliss

LSPender said:


> And Chip with that info, what do we now do? Tough to get that nutrition from corn & soy beans. Note: I agree with the info.
> 
> This is a question.


Good question for which there isn't an easy answer. Until we see better forage, I've been supplementally feeding pollen sub and put fewer hives per out yard. Seems to help in my situation at least. Time will tell on whether programs like CRP will play as large a role as in the past. We've already lost lots of CRP and it ain't over yet.


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## wildbranch2007

Beeslave said:


> My original part of this discussion was about what is happening here where I live.....not about farming practices in CA. Specifically my comment was about the planting practices of the corn crop and the seed treatments. How much no-till corn is planted in CA Keith?
> 
> Wildbranch- Option 1.....they spray it with round up anyways


see post #6, roundup doesn't work well on dandillions will have to try another option.


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## wildbranch2007

I don't have time to see if this has already been posted, but an article from randy oliver on the bees and buzz kill

http://gallery.mailchimp.com/5fd2b1..._Happened_to_the_Bees_This_Spring2013_opt.pdf


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## Ian

getting some heavy loss reports from producers in Manitoba,


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## Keith Jarrett

wildbranch2007 said:


> from randy oliver on the bees and buzz kill
> 
> http://gallery.mailchimp.com/5fd2b1..._Happened_to_the_Bees_This_Spring2013_opt.pdf


Good post WB07, there's the data, wonder what there going to blame it on now.......


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## irwin harlton

2 nosemas, amoebas and 2 other protozoans= A xenoma (also known as a ‘xenoparasitic complex’)


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## Oldtimer

Wow that Randy Oliver article is a fascinating read!


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## jean-marc

It is a good read. He seems pretty level headed and seems to have a very good feel for what is happening in the industry. Well worth the time to read.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

Randy spends alot of time on this stuff, when does he have time to beekeep?


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## HarryVanderpool

Ian said:


> Randy spends alot of time on this stuff, when does he have time to beekeep?


Yes. He is a prolific writer, great conference speaker AND a great beekeeper!
Definitely and thankfully NOT a connoisseur of the ****amamie.


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## squarepeg

ian, my understanding is that any time away from making a living at beekeeping to do research has to be offset by donations. makes sense. i have been making a modest contribution each year as have many others. if any of you have benefited from reading oliver's stuff, consider sending a donation. only fair.


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## Ian

>>>In the case of Dan Rather,the focus was on the beekeepers with troubles, not
upon those who successfully filled their pollination contracts.<<<

Dan sucked me in too,

>>>Although the hearts of all beekeepers go outto those who suffered severe colony losses,many felt
thatsome ofthose losses could have been prevented ifthe afflicted beekeepers had beenmore proactive
than reactive.<<<

yikes, thats is something Keith would say, lol


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## CLICKBANGBANG

Ian said:


> Randy spends alot of time on this stuff, when does he have time to beekeep?


If you know Randy (I only bump into him now and then), the question is "When does he have time to eat and sleep?" He is a busy man. He still takes time to teach beginner classes, help and speek at the local club, write, speak and teach at conferences, test and trial, ... I really can't even list all the stuff he does from day to day. 

One easy answer is he has his two boys working for him.

Edit to say- I forgot to mention Keith received a nice reference.


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## Oldtimer

He showed up in my country recently for a speaking engagement, unfortunately I was not able to attend, wish I could have.


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## Keith Jarrett

Read this online today
http://news.yahoo.com/feds-many-causes-dramatic-bee-disappearance-152605922.html

Reported mites were the number #1 cause of ccd.

What.... who would have ever thought.


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## camero7

Which is what many of us have been saying for a while:scratch:


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## Beeslave

Where does it say "reported mites were the #1 cause" in that link?

It states "
The intertwined factors cited include a parasitic mite, multiple viruses, bacteria, poor nutrition, genetics, habitat loss and pesticides."


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## Rader Sidetrack

Beeslave said:


> Where does it say "reported mites were the #1 cause" in that link?
> 
> It states "The intertwined factors cited include a parasitic mite, multiple viruses, bacteria, poor nutrition, genetics, habitat loss and pesticides."


The 5th paragraph at Keith's link says:



> The federal report, issued Thursday by the Agriculture Department and the Environmental Protection Agency, said the biggest culprit is the parasitic mite varroa destructor, calling it "*the single most detrimental pest of honeybees.*"
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/feds-many-causes-dramatic-bee-disappearance-152605922.html


Keith obviously paraphrased what he read, but the two phrases essentially mean the same thing, in my view.


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## Beeslave

Thanks. I missed that.


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