# SouthEast US Package/Nuc Failures



## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

This will be a tough post, but I am curious to see how many people bought packages/Nucs from the southeast US and you consider them a Failure for one reason or another. This is tough because failure means many things to many people. To me, this means you had to requeen, they absconded, they didn't make it, Hive beetles and Varroa got them...I think you get the point.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Packages and nucs fail for 2 reasons.

1. The beekeeper that has them
2. The queen wasn't properly mated

All other reason's for failure can be prevented by the beekeeper other than vandalism.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Can't use the poll... 4 are successful, one needed a new queen but should survive.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

Sounds like a myth to me. Lets see how the poll shakes out.


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## Fl_Beak (May 9, 2010)

I had to requeen w/in 5months, but that could have been a newbeek error


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## Fred Bee (May 5, 2007)

Just fyi...I started eight packages this spring. Two of them had poor quality queens...drone layers. I feel that the queens weren't properly mated to begin with.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Bump. Come on folks, we gotta know....has it been bad?


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

I was able to get one of the first shipment of queens from Georgia this spring. Unfortunately there were many of the queens that were no mated properly and therefore the results were dismal at best. Usually queens from Georgia have been very good, but because of the longer than normal winter I suspect that queen breeders were being pushed to deliver and the breeder stock was stressed resulting in poor mating. A few of my queens were not mated, some were below average size and some died withing two days of arrival. Overall it was poor group of queens. 
I plan on never buying queens again, better resulta can be acheived through raising my own queens. I can control quality, the new queens will be climate acclimated and the benefits for the small hive keeper far outweigh the results from purchased queens.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

On the same page as this post you can see several reports of package failures- search on beesource and I am sure you will find lots and lots.


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## habutti (Apr 20, 2008)

It has been a bad year for the industry. Also the multiple variations in the weather have affected. With the extraourdinary amount of snow from last winter I expected bumper crops of honey this year but so far it is not so.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Beeslave said:


> Packages and nucs fail for 2 reasons.
> 
> 1. The beekeeper that has them
> 2. The queen wasn't properly mated
> ...


Hmmmm, maybe. Not sure that applies in all situations.


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## Red_SC (Apr 16, 2010)

Three of us bought a total of 6 packages this year, we're all new beekeepers. So far no problems with any of them that I know of.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

So far we have had 32 voters. I know their are varying opinions on this subject hence the reason I put up a poll. I am hoping all that did say they have a problem vote. Never know though!


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Out of ten, it looks like I MIGHT have 5 bad queens, waiting to see for sure, not sure where they were raised.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

How can anyone take this poll seriously? It is pure propaganda with no real value.

It's designed to influence folks to vote a certain way, and posters are even going to the point of trying to gather voters who will give them the answer they want to hear.

If you want an honest poll, quit asking people to give you the answer you are looking for. Instead, seek the truth.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Packages and nucs fail for 2 reasons.

1. The beekeeper that has them
2. The queen wasn't properly mated

All other reason's for failure can be prevented by the beekeeper other than vandalism. _

The biggest problem I have seen this year was drift when shaking packages. When you are shaking packages in 80 or 85 degree sunny weather, some bees are going to drift, even if you spray them with syrup when you shake them.

Some hives end up with tiny clusters, and some hives attract a lot of the drifting bees, and you have two supers of dandelion honey on those hives.

The package hives that lost a lot of bees due to drift will be too slow to build up to make a crop with unless you give them frames of brood from strong hives. Unless you equalize your hives, those weaker hives will be failures.

Perhaps we should define failure also. Is it a failure if the package hive doesn't build up strong enough to produce a crop, or is it just a failure if it dies out completely?


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## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

Three out of five queens superseded also found small hive beetles in with packages.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

fatscher said:


> Hmmmm, maybe. Not sure that applies in all situations.


3-The nuc was diseased
4-Your package was full of old bees and not enough young bees


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

Beeslave said:


> 3-The nuc was diseased
> 4-Your package was full of old bees and not enough young bees


Beeslave hit the nail on the head! I started 16 packages on Mar. 27&28th. Two has superseded and one needs too. Most all are drawing their second hive body of unwaxed plastic foundation. I have kept feeders on them, pollen patties at first and equalized brood. The biggest thing I noticed was that there was a lot of old bees and drones, because I know it rained the day these packages were shaken and I was told that they would work in the rain. It is not their fault I choose a pickup date of Mar. 27, and yes they did have a schedule to keep, thats life. All and all so far I'm satisfied. Last year I didn't get any at all.
Gary


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> How can anyone take this poll seriously? It is pure propaganda with no real value.
> 
> It's designed to influence folks to vote a certain way, and posters are even going to the point of trying to gather voters who will give them the answer they want to hear.
> 
> If you want an honest poll, quit asking people to give you the answer you are looking for. Instead, seek the truth.


HEY CB, not sure what you see as pure propoganda, but i have heard it said MANY times that the southern packes had problems this year. BECAUSE this was said, i decided to create the poll. I do not care either way, but becuase of the things that were said i decided to ask....you are free not to vote and to find somehting else to ctitique, but do me a favor, don't critisize something that you havent even asked me about and the intentions behind it sir. Also, if you READ my little blurb on the first page, i did NOT limit what people thought was a failure because failure means different hings to different people.....In what way is the designed to influence poeple in any way?....man, you sure as heck make a ton of accusations....especially without asking why I posted this. Gets annoying personally, and you have NO idea of my intentions behind it do you?


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

In terms of what defines failure, well, that's a very personal definition as many beeks have various reasons for working with bees.

Failure for one may not be failure for another. It would be interesting to see folks write why they say their pkgs/nucs failed (or didn't) as they vote.

Big Bear


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## Fred Bee (May 5, 2007)

I based my response on the original options... In my case of installing 8 packages this spring, I had two in which the accompanying queens were not properly mated. I suppose it is the feeling of some of us that often in the rush to obtain early spring packages, we may get queens that have not had the opportunity to mate with a sufficient number of drones, etc.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

I am very surprised to see that not more people voted on this. I think that a 27% failure is a high number...for varying reasons beyond beek mistakes. I am bumping this back up, so please vote...


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## clgs (Aug 6, 2008)

2 packages failed:
1 queen dead on arrival, thought there may be an unmarked queen in the box due to clustering, but alas not. Need to requeen
1 queen must have been unmated, No eggs, larvae or brood after more than 2 weeks. Now can't find the marked queen.
company sending new queens. Bees are drawing out comb and collecting nectar and pollen.


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## DutchBee (Jul 14, 2009)

4 packages, 1 had a dead queen in the queen cage.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

thanks guys...keep voting.


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## mothergoosemagic (Feb 26, 2010)

:thumbsup:
Good news is that the package is going strong & after 1 month, I'm seeing a visible increase in bees, brood cells I know have hatched out, and upon inspection yesterday, 5 full frames (both sides) of capped & uncapped brood averaging 75% capacity. Pulled two outside frames with just honey/nectar & centered them in the second deep I added.

:s
Bad news is that I have no idea exactly where the bees originally came from. A member of the local beek group here brokered the deal. He said bees were picked up starting in Georgia, then SC & NC before delivery in Virginia & parts north.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

There has been a lot said about dud queens. I recommend queen cells (bought, raised, or swarm cells). *Then you control the mating.* I bought 2 batches of queen cells and now I am doing a batch of nucs from swarm cells. I know this will not work for packages, or for nucs you buy. Even if you have 1 hive you can make splits. I lost a bunch of hives over the winter. I only had 2 left. I am up to between 10 and 15 colonies and 2 of them are a cutout and a swarm. Yes I am making no honey this year. Yes I FED FED FED. But it will be worth it next year. 

This maybe off topic but I hope it helps someone.


Kingfisheropcorn:


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## ehotham (Jun 17, 2009)

1 package of one died in 2009
2 of 3 died in 2010

Ones that survived had local queens.


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## Aram (May 9, 2006)

It depends. Not sure how to vote. I think it depends on the source.
Three of three failed last year. One absconded, two were destroyed by SHB. (I actually caught the absconding one and hived it at a different site. It survived the winter and is going really, really strong.) The NY distributor who sold them to me was really arrogant and ignorant too. Had no understanding of the difference between absconding and swarming blamed it all on me. Would never buy from them again. Anything!
But I did give southern bees another chance this year and I'm happy I did.
Of the five I ordered this year, all are going strong. They are in a quarantine yard until I'm sure there are no beetles. They seem great so far. I bought these from Papar here. Great service and he uses Holts Apiaries, and Gardner Spell Bee. I'd buy again from them if I can't find a local breeder. 
(Of course local northern breeders will always be my first choice.)


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

4 Packages. 2 were laying workers hives from the get go. They killed the queen. 1 was superceded in a days. Varroa and hive beetles were in packages.

Not thrilled so far. It has been a work in progress with shake outs and requeening. On the right track now but it is slooooooow progress.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Michae B said:


> Not thrilled so far.


You certainly shouldn't be, with performance like that. Southern packages are just lesser quality, despite the poll results, and are not acclimated to your area.

Find a good source for Northern queens and nucs and you'll be glad you made the switch.


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## twf_ (May 18, 2010)

Installed 2 packages last weekend from a major supplier in Moultrie, GA. I checked on them today and found a good quantity of eggs in both and what I would consider better than average comb and pollen stores for week old colonies on new foundation. Always possible to go down quick, but things are looking good so far.


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

fatscher said:


> Find a good source for Northern queens and nucs and you'll be glad you made the switch.


That was the plan. The last two summers here in New England have been cold and wet. The hives have been very weak. The past two winters we have seen higher than normal attrition. Heck we were seeing swarms in September. Those colonies were doomed. From what I gathered, beeks in New England saw between 40-100% winter losses. My friend lost all six. SOme beeks did fine if thier colonies were strong and had plenty of honey for winter.

All the local nuc supplies cancelled 90% of spring orders in February. So the alternative was the south east.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Interesting. My worst package came from New Jersey, drone layer queen. I wonder if northern breeders can produce well mated queens early in the season? I wanted early packages so that I could split and still try for some honey. My best packages came from California, but they had great spring weather this year. One of my Georgia packages is doing great, the other is not quite as strong but doing fine.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

fatscher said:


> Southern packages are just lesser quality, despite the poll results, and are not acclimated to your area.
> 
> Find a good source for Northern queens and nucs and you'll be glad you made the switch.



Fatch, I am disagreeing.....you can't make that assumption on the ENTIRE SE region.....not all of them!

I do agree that you should find a good source of Northern Queens and Nucs.


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## Fred Bee (May 5, 2007)

Fred Bee said:


> I suppose it is the feeling of some of us that often in the rush to obtain early spring packages, we may get queens that have not had the opportunity to mate with a sufficient number of drones, etc.


This is the case regardless of where the bees came from. No reflection on bees from the south or bees from the north here. 

There are great bees from both! :thumbsup:


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

I think i am going to order a Northern Nuc next year just because i can.:lookout:..helps with the genetics here, and i am curious to see if they have beach chairs in the winter for the warmth.....:lpf::lpf::lpf:


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Fred Bee said:


> I suppose it is the feeling of some of us that often in the rush to obtain early spring packages, we may get queens that have not had the opportunity to mate with a sufficient number of drones, etc.


Totally agree. Why not wait until mid April to get them? My first batch of nucs that were started the last week of March did poorly. I had some drone layers and virgins. The ones that did make it did very well. 

Just because a package or queen is from the south doesn't mean that it will bee bad. Be patient and wait a few weeks. Or raise your own. 



Kingfisher


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michae B said:


> All the local nuc supplies cancelled 90% of spring orders in February. So the alternative was the south east.


Nuc suppliers? Were they taking orders for spring splits? With spring splits you're really limited by how the bees wintered...er...I mean how their bees wintered. If you winter the nucs, you can make them at the height of the season when resources are great. The queens are reared when the flows are good and mating weather and drone populations are at their best. Wintering nucs really isn't very difficult and everyone should be starting the process either alone in their apiary or together with your bee club. 

As Fred Bee said, there are great bees in all regions, but the best bees you can get are raised from the best colonies in your climate and under your management conditions. Raising your own stock not only provides you with great bees, it enables you to approach sustainability in your apiary.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

devdog108 said:


> ....you can't make that assumption on the ENTIRE SE region.....not all of them!


I don't lump FatBeeMan into the mix of this. I don't think he shakes packages---he's just nucs, right? The producers I'm talking about are Wilbanks and Hardeman. Until they mix up their genetics I think the quality will remain the same if not worsen.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

camero7 said:


> Interesting. My worst package came from New Jersey, drone layer queen.


I'll bet your New Jersey supplier was a package broker and got theirs wholesale from Georgia. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Yeah, Don does shake packages....Who else package wise are we talking about here....i think we need to know!


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

>I'll bet your New Jersey supplier was a package broker and got theirs wholesale from Georgia. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

No - he is a New Jersey breeder. Queen was supposed to be from his stock... not sure about the bees, but they're not the important part of a package. Paid a little extra for the NJ Queen. Won't make the same mistake twice.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

devdog108 said:


> Who else package wise are we talking about here....i think we need to know!


The big name package producers in the south all come from Georgia, and they are Wilbanks, Hardeman (formerly Spell Bee Co.) and Rossman. Most anytime a newbie beek orders a package from Brushy Mountain, Betterbee, GloryBee, whomever, those companies are getting their packages wholesale from the big three.

FBM shakes his own? :scratch: You're absolutely surely positive about this??? He must have over 1,000 hives then. Shaking bees is a major intensive production, you don't shake bees and make money with 100 hives. I don't buy that.:no:


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Positive.....He has another yard south of me by about 100 miles. I talked to him before he was headed down to start shaking packages. he has someone maintiang them throughout the year...i only know because he mentioned it and I asked about it. I used to maintain the ATM in the little town where he has his other hives.....LOL. Can't imagine he'd go shake anyones but his own...but thats just me!


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## klbowden (Apr 22, 2010)

Our Italian package (first hive ever) went gang busters for the first 10 days or so and then went queenless - had to order a new one and are waiting to see if she will be accepted.


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## nwgabeeman (Apr 18, 2009)

For What it's worth.
I bought a Package in Early April. 
After the install I noticed several SHB left in the cage. 2 weeks after the install I could not find the Queen. 3 Weeks after the install I still could not find the Queen but I did see multiple eggs in the cells, some in pollen.
Hence, Laying workers. I ended up buying a swarm locally and doing a shake out to combine the bees. So I bought 2 hives to get one. 

nwgabeeman


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

nwgabeeman said:


> For What it's worth.
> I bought a Package in Early April. ...So I bought 2 hives to get one.


Mind sharing the source of your package?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

fatscher said:


> Wilbanks, Hardeman (formerly Spell Bee Co.) and Rossman. Most anytime a newbie beek orders a package from Brushy Mountain, Betterbee, GloryBee, whomever, those companies are getting their packages wholesale from the big three.


Just to remove (or maybe add) some confusion. Hardeman has always been Hardeman. The business was started by John Hardeman...who is still stirring about. Hardeman has sold packages to Walter Kelley for years. Gardners bought out Spell (also bought out Shumans) and they sell to Brushy Mtn. Wilbanks used to sell to Brushy but no longer. I don't know who (distributors) Wilbanks or Rossman might sell to these days.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Well, reality is that if they are buying these packages and we truly have a 32.0 % failure, they should have waited until the packages and queens were ready instead of rushing them. Problem being, is they cannot be totally to blame....the customers are the ones that force this issue sometimes. I left my Nuc at FBM's a little longer...how bad could it have hurt me? His 5 frame Nuc i got 2 weeks ago is now already into their 2nd meduim...That tells me that they are strong. Barnett Apiaries in S. Ga has done me well. He called and said, hey, you can have them a week early if you like......one superceded its queen, but her leg was broken. In reality, genetics could be a very big issue. But when we break it down, the customers who want their bees now...sometimes get what they pay for!!!


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

>>>"we truly have a 32.0 % failure"

What percentage of these failures are from inexperienced beekeepers?


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

How can there be a 32% failure? This poll reflects a 100% failure rate because failure is the ONLY thing asked for. Read the title.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

beemandan said:


> Just to remove (or maybe add) some confusion. Hardeman has always been Hardeman. ...Gardners bought out Spell (also bought out Shumans)


I think you're right, thanks for the correction. My apologies on the mis-attribution.



devdog108 said:


> Well, reality is that if they are buying these packages and we truly have a 32.0 % failure, they should have waited until the packages and queens were ready instead of rushing them. Problem being, is they cannot be totally to blame....the customers are the ones that force this issue sometimes....


Devil, I gotta say. I think my beef is not so much with Southern bees but with plain ole packages. I would go so far as to say that sustainable nucs, even those made with Southern bees, are a far cry better than getting a package. Is it too late to go back and change your survey question? :doh:

And yes, I know you're gonna say don't lump the packages all together into the bad pile but it's my post and I'll do what I want!:lpf:


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Countryboy said:


> How can there be a 32% failure? This poll reflects a 100% failure rate because failure is the ONLY thing asked for. Read the title.




Country, you're too literal! Quit reading the dadgummed question, what's wrong with ya? Don't ya know that's not important?


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## nwgabeeman (Apr 18, 2009)

I think this package originally came from Rossman Apairies.

nwgabeeman


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

again countryboy you speak out of turn and without any sincere knowledge.......Read.....and when your done...read again. You again have NO desire to find out any truths, you just seem to throw out random thoughts in my thread. Go ahead, it just gets old.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

No Fatscher, I agree after seeing the personal difference....but i will say that i loved getting my first package last year and watching it from the very beginning. I learned a TON from watching them. I think they forced the issue this year badly.....but that is my thought.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Beeslave said:


> >>>"we truly have a 32.0 % failure"
> 
> What percentage of these failures are from inexperienced beekeepers?


Can't disagree Beeslave....but if you re-read...i said if...ableit quite hard to relay context in a thread...LOL


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

FatBeeMan (Don) shipped me two nucs (5 deep frames each) 6 weeks ago. They arrived within 24 hours from GA to NY through US Priority Mail in perfect shape. As his website says, he sells packages but only for pickup, he only ships nucs, not packages.
Nice bees, lovely queens! Healthy looking and gentle.
Now, 6 weeks later, they pretty much filled up their 10 frame deeps and i just added the second deep brood boxes. They are multiplying fast- look to be maybe triple the numbers they were at first.
I'm very pleased, the bees are doing great.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

I hear ya Omie, I have had mine 2 weeks and am adding their 2nd Medium soon.


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## tnmx (Jan 23, 2009)

I bought 3. 2 were laying the first week and it took one 2 weeks to start laying. The brood patterns were great and they have all filled double deeps. I am happy.


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## yamahawg (May 19, 2010)

After reading all the above posts, i'm glad I was able to go with nucs. I'm a new beekeeper and our club has a good contact for a nuc supplier, which I know his bees were raised in south GA. I also know we were delayed in getting them due to the early spring bad weather they went through. Which was a good thing i guess in waiting, cause have had no problems so far. Started hives on May 1st with 5 frames, using 8 frame equipment, bottom is a deep, added a medium to that, then later queen excluder and medium honey super added to both 2 hives I started. Honey supers have been on for about a week and half now, plan on doing an inspection today.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

I voted my package was successful but now I think I need to change my vote. Installed the package 5/14. Queen was out and laying after a couple of days. Checked a week later saw the queen lots of brood and eggs, bees drawing out comb. Checked again on the 28th. 2 supercedeure cells capped. Found the queen she looked O.K. put her in a nuke with brood and eggs, honey and pollen and bees. Added frame of brood from another hive. Maybe this unexpected split will work. As a package I now think it’s a failure.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Well, maybe they saw something you did not....thats where this gets tough, but it is your call....you define failure IMHO...i cannot. I have my thoughts, but i point at no particular thing


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Tell me your thoughts. If ya think I did something wrong let me know. Thats how I learn.Thats why I come to this forum.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

I doubt it was you. Understanding a package and how they are shook is a key. I will say i think i got a good one last year in part because they kept the queen. They did honeybound her and then blamed her for not laying so they off'd her. You never know. The way i see it is they know what they are doing. If they are crowded and she has no place to lay, they will supercede IMHO. If she was damaged in any way, they will supercede.....see what i mean....you never really know. i am looking for a trend.....


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

mac said:


> I voted my package was successful but now I think I need to change my vote. Installed the package 5/14. Queen was out and laying after a couple of days. Checked a week later saw the queen lots of brood and eggs, bees drawing out comb. Checked again on the 28th. 2 supercedeure cells capped. Found the queen she looked O.K. put her in a nuke with brood and eggs, honey and pollen and bees. Added frame of brood from another hive. Maybe this unexpected split will work. As a package I now think it’s a failure.


This is very common. Package queens often get superceded.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Thanks


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## Brooklyn (Nov 14, 2009)

Both my Queens failed. Both NUCS made new queens. One Hive is doing ok the other is very lite.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Like many others, I ordered nucs with northern-raised queens only to have the order cancelled late Winter. So instead of three nucs, I ordered six packages, expecting the worst. I was not disappointed. Out of six packages, I've written three off already with little to no brood. A fourth is borderline. Only two are strong. All were set up and treated exactly alike.

Haven't tested for nosema, but each package brought with it an incredible amount of dysentery. Cleared up with feeding thymol in the syrup but still had to wash my clothes after simply walking through the bee yard.

I've ordered some northern-bred queens and will requeen any surviving package hives. I planned to requeen them anyway, but didn't expect to have to do it so soon. 

My plan is to split my northern hives hives to nucs in July. Hopefully, I'll never have to buy Southern packages again. No offense meant to our Southern friends here, but I'm not going to go through this again.

Wayne


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

As you shouldn't Wayne.....and no offense taken. Where might I ask, did you get them?


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

They were an emergency hook-up arranged by my local nuc-supplier who, like many in the north, was unable to fill orders after last winter. A Maine bee supplier picked them up (in your state I believe) but I never looked into the actual source. I suppose I should but my hope is for the future to be able to increase with my own locally adapted bees.

All beekeeping should be local, anyway, no matter where you live.

Cheers.

Wayne


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