# Vegans don't eat honey?



## Oldtimer

They don't. It's because we enslave the bees and force them to work apparently.

That's what they think, their loss.


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## cg3

Here ya go-

http://vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm


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## johno

A friend who offered honey to a vegan was told "no thanks that's the food that was stolen from the baby bees" Go figure.
Johno


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## apis maximus

Now this one, is gonna start another WAR...of words and opinions...of hurt feelings and desire for convincing and or unconvincing.

But it will be, a positive gain, for sure...in human relationship building in the VIRTUAL world. For those that care to observe and learn how we build these types of interactions that is.

Vegans vs. Vegetarians vs. Organic vs. Non-Organic vs. Natural vs. Locally grown vs. Factory Farming vs.... 
GOOD vs. BAD.

Yes, indeed, I am all ears...looking forward to also see how this thread will unfold. Because, IT WILL UNFOLD. Y'all just grab a seat and watch.


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## Harley Craig

she should get it from the store where no bees had to be robbed to get it.


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## apis maximus

And just to stir up _this_ freshly started pot a little bit...also consider the question whether honey (take your pick on how you'll define it but do include the spectrum of organic-----non-organic just so we got it covered) is good for the diabetics? 
No discrimination in the diabetic's world of wonder...equal opportunity employer...across races, gender, economic status, nationality...


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## rsjohnson2u

This could be an interesting thread for sure. I've been told "true" vegans won't eat honey due to the exploitation of animals (the bees) used to obtain it. Other vegans have told me it's ok for them to eat since it's a "plant" product. Go figure. To me this is along the lines of someone saying "I'm treatment free, but I use powdered sugar dusting for mites."


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## cwood6_10

He didn't offer it on a honey baked ham did he?


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## FollowtheHoney

http://store.veganessentials.com/bee-free-honee-vegan-honey-substitute-p3733.aspx









Made from apples. I hope they were hand pollinated and no bee labor was used.


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## sqkcrk

BeeGora said:


> I offered a lady at work a small jar of honey. She said that she was vegan and didn't eat it. I knew vegans didn't eat animal products but honey was a surprise to me.


I was surprised by that one time too. We all have our own ideas on life and what is right for us ourselves. I have never had a vegan knock at my door asking had I heard of the Gospel of Veganism. Let's respect those who may see things differently.


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## sqkcrk

"A unique sweetener with the perfect hint of tartness, Bee Free Honee is “apple honey” in that it’s made from apples and not bees! Using only three all-natural ingredients (apple, beet sugar and lemon juice), there’s nothing remotely artificial, and it contains absolutely no added colors and no corn syrup.

Bee Free Honee is made in Minnesota using strictly Midwest apples. The bottles and caps are from nearby in-state manufacturers as well as the boxes, labels and printing, making this a truly local item that supports local business.

Use Bee Free Honee in your favorite recipes anywhere you’d normally use honey or agave nectar, add it to beverages for a great natural sweetener, top off your desserts, pancakes and waffles…anywhere that you can use the sweetness and flavor of honey, you’ll have Bee Free Honey as the perfect cruelty-free alternative."

Now that seems to cross the line for me. That is mislabeling. There are so many beekeepers up in arms about "Honey Blend" and even pollenless honey these days, saying neither is honey and shouldn't be labeled as honey and here comes this stuff. It isn't Honey and shouldn't be labeled as such, no matter how cutely misspell "honee". Whose Dept of Ag do I report these guys to?


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## thehackleguy

I love vegans....more meat and apparently honey for me.


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## Rader Sidetrack

What about exploiting and *killing *worms? :scratch:

It pretty tough to plant an apple tree without digging in the dirt. How do you dig a hole without killing worms and other soil dwelling creatures?:s


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## Cabin

sqkcrk said:


> "A unique sweetener with the perfect hint of tartness, Bee Free Honee is “apple honey” in that it’s made from apples and not bees! Using only three all-natural ingredients (apple, beet sugar and lemon juice), there’s nothing remotely artificial, and it contains absolutely no added colors and no corn syrup.
> 
> Bee Free Honee is made in Minnesota using strictly Midwest apples. The bottles and caps are from nearby in-state manufacturers as well as the boxes, labels and printing, making this a truly local item that supports local business.
> 
> Use Bee Free Honee in your favorite recipes anywhere you’d normally use honey or agave nectar, add it to beverages for a great natural sweetener, top off your desserts, pancakes and waffles…anywhere that you can use the sweetness and flavor of honey, you’ll have Bee Free Honey as the perfect cruelty-free alternative."
> 
> Now that seems to cross the line for me. That is mislabeling. There are so many beekeepers up in arms about "Honey Blend" and even pollenless honey these days, saying neither is honey and shouldn't be labeled as honey and here comes this stuff. It isn't Honey and shouldn't be labeled as such, no matter how cutely misspell "honee". Whose Dept of Ag do I report these guys to?


Made from apples not bees!!??? You monsters! Pressing bees to extract the honey!!!! ;-))


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## clyderoad

sqkcrk said:


> "A unique sweetener with the perfect hint of tartness, Bee Free Honee is “apple honey” in that it’s made from apples and not bees! Using only three all-natural ingredients (apple, beet sugar and lemon juice), there’s nothing remotely artificial, and it contains absolutely no added colors and no corn syrup.
> 
> Bee Free Honee is made in Minnesota using strictly Midwest apples. The bottles and caps are from nearby in-state manufacturers as well as the boxes, labels and printing, making this a truly local item that supports local business.
> 
> Use Bee Free Honee in your favorite recipes anywhere you’d normally use honey or agave nectar, add it to beverages for a great natural sweetener, top off your desserts, pancakes and waffles…anywhere that you can use the sweetness and flavor of honey, you’ll have Bee Free Honey as the perfect cruelty-free alternative."
> 
> Now that seems to cross the line for me. That is mislabeling. There are so many beekeepers up in arms about "Honey Blend" and even pollenless honey these days, saying neither is honey and shouldn't be labeled as honey and here comes this stuff. It isn't Honey and shouldn't be labeled as such, no matter how cutely misspell "honee". Whose Dept of Ag do I report these guys to?


I emailed them in summer of 2014 expressing your thoughts exactly. I received a reply that stated something to the effect that they are sorry I feel the way I do.
Notice the use of all the buzz words? "apple honey, all-natural, nothing artificial, local, in-state, cruelty free, non GMO".

I'm sure they will be glad to hear from everyone- bee free honey dot com. I guess w Hole food s loves them.

Par for the course these days.


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## JonnyBeeGood

cwood6_10 said:


> He didn't offer it on a honey baked ham did he?


😅 This is good stuff. 😅


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## crofter

For the most part it is just another example or flavor of idealism. A way of identifying as being different, superior, and at the same time gives one a group to belong to. On a practical note raising bees for honey is a very expensive way to produce food calories when all inputs are considered on a strict accounting basis. It pales in comparison though to a lot of other human activity.


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## TalonRedding

Eh....offer the jar two or three years from now. She probably will abandon the vegan train by then. Back when I was in college (just a few years ago), most of my peers were getting acquainted with these *new* ideas, includining veganism, that they weren't raised with. I had a buddy that went vegan in his freshman year and by his senior year he couldn't stand it anymore. Lol...he went to the most extravagant steakhouse around and ordered the biggest, juiciest steak they had, cooked rare I might add. He told me that it was like a "hit of ecstacy", literally....he said that. :lpf:
I know this won't be the case for all vegans, but it was definitely the trend for folks I've known.


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## TalonRedding

crofter said:


> For the most part it is just another example or flavor of idealism. A way of identifying as being different, superior, and at the same time gives one a group to belong to.


You hit the nail square on the head crofter. :thumbsup:


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## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> Whose Dept of Ag do I report these guys to?



Servings per container – 16 tablespoons
Cost = $5.99 + $6.95 shipping and handling (I checked) 


At $0.81 per tablespoon they should be reported to the police.

Veganism; a rich peoples disease


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## gone2seed

sqkcrk said:


> you’ll have Bee Free Honey as the perfect cruelty-free alternative."


I guess I will have to redefine my personal definition of cruelty to include furnishing a home, feeding, protecting and making sure they have everything they need to live a productive life.


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## AdamBeal

Harley Craig said:


> she should get it from the store where no bees had to be robbed to get it.


I have been told that vegans will eat honey from China since it isn't really honey


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## sqkcrk

Cabin said:


> Made from apples not bees!!??? You monsters! Pressing bees to extract the honey!!!! ;-))


Just like Soylent Green. "Honey is bees, people!!"


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## sqkcrk

crofter said:


> For the most part it is just another example or flavor of idealism. A way of identifying as being different, superior, and at the same time gives one a group to belong to. On a practical note raising bees for honey is a very expensive way to produce food calories when all inputs are considered on a strict accounting basis. It pales in comparison though to a lot of other human activity.


We all have our "tribes", don't we Frank? The World is big enough. As long as we don't rub each other the wrong way. I don't see anything like Charlie Hebdo coming down the pike. I don't see any Radical Veganism Terrorists massacring Burger King employees any time soon.


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## Cabin

Now I have to add 'Bee press' to my start up list! Or do we just cut and drain?


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## thehackleguy

sqkcrk said:


> I don't see any Radical Veganism Terrorists massacring Burger King employees any time soon.



sqkcrk, I'm not trying to be rude in any way, but I wanted to point out that there are thousands of vegan, animal rights terrorist that are trespassing, vandalizing, stealing and or damaging property and yes people have been killed.  

I work in animal research, studied animal science in college and have written several papers on the subject.

My self, this is the way I feel about the people I don't agree with......http://www.cc.com/video-clips/tpf3kl/live-at-gotham-no-smoking


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## Summerland Bee

FollowtheHoney said:


> http://store.veganessentials.com/bee-free-honee-vegan-honey-substitute-p3733.aspx
> 
> View attachment 15687
> 
> 
> Made from apples. I hope they were hand pollinated and no bee labor was used.


We are so glad that 2015 union contact is signed. Now our bees get 1/2 hr lunch break and two 15 min rest period for every eight hrs worked. With the no robbing clause in section 8.2. That local 9 frame union is tough bunch. Oh and one extra cleansing flight


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## sqkcrk

thehackleguy said:


> sqkcrk, I'm not trying to be rude in any way, but I wanted to point out that there are thousands of vegan, animal rights terrorist that are trespassing, vandalizing, stealing and or damaging property and yes people have been killed.
> 
> I work in animal research, studied animal science in college and have written several papers on the subject.
> 
> My self, this is the way I feel about the people I don't agree with......http://www.cc.com/video-clips/tpf3kl/live-at-gotham-no-smoking


Thank you for raising my awareness. I was not aware of that.


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## AstroBee

I wonder if you sat down with some vegans and had a detailed and honest conversation on how the vast majority of beekeepers really manage honey bees for production. I'm not sure if they really understand how its done and the vast benefits to the beekeeper for treating their bees properly for survival. I think some have heard about the stories of the evil beekeepers killing off all their bees just to maximize profits. I'd love to have a group of vegans come with me and observe what really happens in my yards. 

Perhaps I just don't fully understand their position....


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## FlowerPlanter

Now what if you offer the bees a trade? Would it still be stealing?

I am going to try it, will let you know if it works.

I will make an offer to the bees a trade one gallon of syrup in exchange for one gallon of honey, then I will leave one gallon of syrup out and give them some time to think about it. If they accept then I will collect on the honey. 

Sound fair?


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## sqkcrk

AstroBee said:


> I wonder if you sat down with some vegans and had a detailed and honest conversation on how the vast majority of beekeepers really manage honey bees for production. I'm not sure if they really understand how its done and the vast benefits to the beekeeper for treating their bees properly for survival. I think some have heard about the stories of the evil beekeepers killing off all their bees just to maximize profits. I'd love to have a group of vegans come with me and observe what really happens in my yards.
> 
> Perhaps I just don't fully understand their position....


"I wonder if you sat down with some vegans and had a detailed and honest conversation on how the vast majority of" vegans feel about being vegans is whether any of us who are not vegans would feel about vegans and veganism. It's a personal choice and philosophy, isn't it?


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## sqkcrk

No Flower Planter. You have to offer something of greater value. Something the one you are buying from wants enough to trade you for what they have.


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## Matt F

If vegans don't eat eggs or milk, I wouldn't expect them to eat honey either. The logic makes sense to me, but I'm no vegan! 

The lettuce you're eating was stolen from baby rabbits who are now starving.


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## TylerStewart

Someone could easily make the argument that bees are 'enslaven' by the apple trees for pollination.... If the apple-honey is made from apples, something had to pollinate those apples (not to mention earthworms that were already dragged into this kicking and screaming). So the bees can work in the hot sun in the field on the pollination side and that is fair game (not to mention the work they endure to pollinate all the other crops), but once they work in their own hive on the actual honey production (rather than in the apple orchard), it's animal cruelty? They are working hard either way.


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## BeeGora

rsjohnson2u said:


> Other vegans have told me it's ok for them to eat honey since it's a "plant" product. Go figure....."


Along that line of reasoning then steak should be OK for vegans because cows are plant products too.


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## crofter

Survival of the fittest? Stealing someone elses lunch and eating them or their babies is standard fare in nature; you do want to be natural don't you? And naturally the lamb shall lay down with the lion. 

Reality trumps idealism: idealism is much more entertaining though, and such a multi purpose tool.


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## dudelt

I believe the vegans have other issues. Plants are not vegan. Plants live by eating dead animals, bacteria, and chemicals in the soil. What about organic vegans? They clearly cannot use manure or bone meal to fertilize their gardens since it is animal based. If they choose to not eat honey, I will support their right to choose.


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## thehackleguy

There is a lot of recent research findings about plants that makes most of vegans points mute.....unless they are just concerned about animals.

"Pollan says plants have all the same senses as humans, and then some. In addition to hearing, taste, for example, they can sense gravity, the presence of water, or even feel that an obstruction is in the way of its roots, before coming into contact with it. Plant roots will shift direction, he says, to avoid obstacles."

"And we assume you need ears to hear. But researchers, says Pollan, have played a recording of a caterpillar munching on a leaf to plants — and the plants react. They begin to secrete defensive chemicals — even though the plant isn't really threatened, Pollan says. "It is somehow hearing what is, to it, a terrifying sound of a caterpillar munching on its leaves." "

http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-01-09/new-research-plant-intelligence-may-forever-change-how-you-think-about-plants

Whole article if you are interested:


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## sqkcrk

Do you suppose a Vegan would taste better with Honey Barbecue or Teryaki Sauce?


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## thehackleguy

sqkcrk said:


> Do you suppose a Vegan would taste better with Honey Barbecue or Teryaki Sauce?


What the heck are the sauces made out of...I'm not sure what I can eat now :ws:


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## Vance G

Does it matter whether a really insignificant albeit mouthy segment of the population feels about eating honey?


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## thehackleguy

Vance G said:


> Does it matter whether a really insignificant albeit mouthy segment of the population feels about eating honey?


No but it is entertaining


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## Vance G

Well, that's different!


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## jwcarlson

One of the late night guys did a segment awhile back where they went around and asked people if they were vegan, vegetarian, had a gluten allergy/ate gluten-free.

Obviously they edit so they get the funny ones, but a remarkable number of people emphatically answer "Yes, I eat gluten-free." Or "Absolutely, I'm a vegan."

When pressed to the next step, being asked (for instance), "What is gluten?" or "Why don't you eat gluten?" There are a lot of confused looks, stammering, and scoffing. So many of these goof balls don't know what the heck they're talking about. I'm sure they're great people for certain companies to have around. I bet you could sell them darn near anything.

Bottom-line... the average run-of-the-mill veganite isn't doing any real destruction to the world or affecting me in any way. It is not worth your time to try to think rationally about someone who is acting emotionally. And as a general rule no one under the age of 60 wearing a beret or fedora is worth your time either. You'll find a significant amount of overlap here.


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## justin

We've had a friends daughter helping my wife at the farmers market sell our honey, and honey/beeswax products we make. last year she went vegan and gave up honey. I asked how she felt about making her living selling something she was morally opposed to, She said it was her problem and she was still sleeping ok so i quit teasing her. To me its not any stranger than all the other stuff people do and believe in.


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## wareagle1776

People will join groups to make thier life more fulfilling, whether it be religous, political, radical Islam, cults and it will sometimes take up all of thier time and energy. Most are harmless but irritating to others for some reason.....of course some are deadly and destrctive to human lives and property! What happened to emotional stability in the world or did we ever have it?


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## sqkcrk

Vance G said:


> Does it matter whether a really insignificant albeit mouthy segment of the population feels about eating honey?


Who? Us?


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## sqkcrk

wareagle1776 said:


> People will join groups to make their life more fulfilling, whether it be religious, political, radical Islam, cults and it will sometimes take up all of their time and energy. Most are harmless but irritating to others for some reason.....of course some are deadly and destructive to human lives and property!


And some of them are beekeepers. Or isn't that what you meant? We all have our"tribes".


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## wareagle1776

Yes, of course anything that is done with an all out passion whether good or bad..........I hope that we all find something to do with passion that is indeed fulfilling.


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## BadBeeKeeper

sqkcrk said:


> Now that seems to cross the line for me. That is mislabeling. There are so many beekeepers up in arms about "Honey Blend" and even pollenless honey these days, saying neither is honey and shouldn't be labeled as honey and here comes this stuff. It isn't Honey and shouldn't be labeled as such, no matter how cutely misspell "honee". Whose Dept of Ag do I report these guys to?


I was browsing through various States' laws after reading the thread on state bee laws, and that would almost for sure be a violation of MA state honey labeling laws. They're almost stricter on the labeling of honey than on the keeping of bees.


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## beepro

I have once talk to a vegetarian/vegan woman who said she will not eat the honey because
she doesn't want the bees to suffer and die. I did not argue with her....but isn't the bees dying
after 6 weeks because of their natural way of being a bee? I mean we as humans will die after
100 years or maybe early, right. Some suffer some don't. I just don't get her way of thinking 
sometimes. Because the way she think how cruel us beekeepers are exploiting the bees to get their honey.


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## j.kuder

if they eat that way because they think it's healthier thats fine but if they think it makes them innocent of killing animal life their mere existance on this planet has brought death and suffering to uncountable lives. every step they take causes unavoidable death and destruction.


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## Honey Hive Farms

We sell honey to a Vegan dinner. The say they love it.


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## TalonRedding

j.kuder said:


> every step they take causes unavoidable death and destruction.


And I thought my bedside manner was bad. :lpf:


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## marshmasterpat

justin said:


> We've had a friends daughter helping my wife at the farmers market sell our honey, and honey/beeswax products we make. last year she went vegan and gave up honey. I asked how she felt about making her living selling something she was morally opposed to, She said it was her problem and she was still sleeping ok so i quit teasing her. To me its not any stranger than all the other stuff people do and believe in.


Your a better person than I. These people often talk about the issues that concern them, which they read about from a blog, website, book, or heard on TV, yet other than stop eating certain foods, they are living a myth. And she sure is not walking her talk as the saying goes. 

I would be looking for her replacement. Like I said glad the world is filled with people that don't think like me, otherwise :ws:


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## philip.devos

I don't like vegans or anyone else who murders broccoli or any other living thing for their own consumption.

I limit my diet to rocks.


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## Just Krispy

LOL


FollowtheHoney said:


> http://store.veganessentials.com/bee-free-honee-vegan-honey-substitute-p3733.aspx
> 
> View attachment 15687
> 
> 
> Made from apples. I hope they were hand pollinated and no bee labor was used.


FACE PALM


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## bean tree homestead




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## CanadaBeekeeper

In fact Vegans wouldn't be able to eat the vast majority of fruit or grains that require pollination for replanting.




TylerStewart said:


> Someone could easily make the argument that bees are 'enslaven' by the apple trees for pollination.... If the apple-honey is made from apples, something had to pollinate those apples (not to mention earthworms that were already dragged into this kicking and screaming). So the bees can work in the hot sun in the field on the pollination side and that is fair game (not to mention the work they endure to pollinate all the other crops), but once they work in their own hive on the actual honey production (rather than in the apple orchard), it's animal cruelty? They are working hard either way.


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## tommyt

BeeGora said:


> I offered a lady at work a small jar of honey. She said that she was vegan and didn't eat it. I knew vegans didn't eat animal products but honey was a surprise to me.


 WHO REALLY CARES :lpf:

Those type folks are a bit Diddy IMHO

Lol

I posted without reading any of the 3 pages 
I then skip read a few posts
With that said 
I'll leave my comment as is


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## Redbug

I think that if a group of people have the money and the time to follow whatever cult they think is right for them that's OK, as long as they don't harm other people doing it. 

Putting all that aside, if I were in a lifeboat with a vegan and we were both starving and dehydrated, do you think the vegan would starve while I ate fish? I would hope so. More fish for me and it's their chance to prove their point to the death.

However, I think values change with the will of the wind. It just depends on how strong the wind blows. Science and facts have nothing to do with any of it. That's why the average Joe like us does not understand their process of thinking. The world is like that, I see it all around me. I cannot answer this question about vegans. I hope they don't starve.


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## gone2seed

Redbug said:


> Putting all that aside, if I were in a lifeboat with a vegan and we were both starving and dehydrated, do you think the vegan would starve while I ate fish? I would hope so. More fish for me and it's their chance to prove their point to the death.


Noooo.Share the fish and encourage the vegan to eat. After all, if you are in that lifeboat long enough the vegan may come in handy and you don't want a vegan who is skin and bones.


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## BadBeeKeeper

wareagle1776 said:


> People will join groups to make thier life more fulfilling, whether it be religous, political, radical Islam, cults and it will sometimes take up all of thier time and energy. Most are harmless but irritating to others for some reason.....of course some are deadly and destrctive to human lives and property! *What happened to emotional stability in the world or did we ever have it?*


Kooks and whackjobs have existed ever since the first pre-historic human discovered that he could take advantage of others by claiming to have secret knowledge and influence to which the rest were not privy, unless _he_ chose to include them (for a price). Advances in transportation and navigation allowed their influence to spread, ofttimes to the detriment of others with whom they came in contact. In modern times, sensationalist 'news' agencies and the invention of the interwebz just gives more of them a voice and longer range. The gullibility of the masses, despite advances in science and education, is mind-boggling.


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## devil dog

Vegan...V-E-G-A-N...is actually an adjective used by the Apache meaning...Bad Hunter.


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## rwurster

lol nice


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## JRG13

If you tell them it's from a deadout, would they eat it then? Those dead bees didn't need the honey anymore.


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## Michael Bush

If the vegans making the case against honey were being honest I'd have a bit more respect. Many of the things they refer to are rare at best. How many of you have artificially inseminated queens in your hives? How many of you kill your queens very year? (of course if she's failing the bees would not hesitate to kill her...) How many people do you know who kill off all the bees every fall?


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## Nabber86

Michael Bush said:


> If the vegans making the case against honey were being honest I'd have a bit more respect. Many of the things they refer to are rare at best. How many of you have artificially inseminated queens in your hives? How many of you kill your queens very year? (of course if she's failing the bees would not hesitate to kill her...) How many people do you know who kill off all the bees every fall?


I have looked into the vegan/honey situation quite a bit and the answer is much simpler than that. The takeaway for me is that vegans are against exploitation of any animal (or insect) for any reason. The logic is sound from that respect.


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## Cabin

Nabber86 said:


> I have looked into the vegan/honey situation quite a bit and the answer is much simpler than that. The takeaway for me is that vegans are against exploitation of any animal (or insect) for any reason. The logic is sound from that respect.


Pollination is exploiting an insect. The 'for any reason' is the error in their logic, unless they only eat self pollinating crops. It can be done but I have yet to meet a vegan who does not eat apples and oranges.


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## Oldtimer

Really? They eat apples and oranges. But not honey.

And they cannot see the contradiction in that position?

From my own reading of some vegan literature, I suspect some of the basic ideology of the movement, was formulated by a very small number of persuasive writers who were able to promulgate their own interpretations of rightness and wrongness within the gullible vegan masses. The majority of those masses being idealistic rather than practical personalities, easily persuaded by any cleverly presented argument, but not educated about the facts on which those arguments may be based.


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## crofter

One historically prominent character I will leave nameless claimed that the more convoluted and obscure the thought he was capable of believing, the more it demonstrated his faith! Such mindsets are difficult to shake loose!


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## snapper1d

My brother's wife and kids are vegans.I give him honey and he carries it home and they refuse to eat it.They will go to the health foods store and buy honey and then say the health foods store honey is more healthy and is organic! lolololol He does have a weird wife and kids.


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## Oldtimer

Interesting Snapper1d. In vegan literature, much of what they object to about beekeeping is the extreme end of commercial practises such as II queens and killing bees in fall, practises not even followed by the majority of commercial beekeepers. But honey from someone such as yourself is probably the most bee friendly honey available produced in hives doing none of the things vegan doctrine does not like. Possibly more so than the honey in the health food store. You are right to chuckle.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

I do find it interesting that vegans are OK with damaging and killing plants which in turn kill millions of microbes and bacteria and depletes the soil if nothing is put back into it. We can all learn a lot from bees. Honeybees produce extra honey for us and increase the productivity of flora via seed production by as much as 10 times non pollinated plants. If they want to help the bees, nature and themselves they need to buy real honey and eat it too


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## NDnewbeek

The posts pointing out vegan/vegetarian hypocrisy with regard to plants are right on. Somehow, the notion that plants are "less alive" than animals and somehow ok to eat because they are not animals if ridiculous on a number of levels. 

Plants are aggressive, living things - more so than even animals. They simply respond to stimuli in ways that differ from animal responses. And so, because their responses aren't parallel to ours or on the same time frame as ours, we don't relate to them as well and it is ok to end their lives and eat them (or, in the case of fruits - eat their offspring!)

That is nothing short of ignorance.

Two examples:
The gypsy moth caterpillar is an aggressive leaf predator of trees (web worms). The caterpillar can defoliate entire forests in a very short time. Trees invest energy in their leaves and don't want to lose them to the caterpillar. When caterpillars strike a forest and defoliate the trees - two things happen - 

First - the trees in the forest do not reproduce that year or put out new leaves that year. They conserve their energy. The next year, they put out leaves filled with large, indigestible proteins (tannins and lignins). The caterpillars of the next generation eat the leaves. The proteins can not be digested and the caterpillars fail to become moths and die. The trees literally chemically attack and kill their predators!

Second - The leaves of nearby trees in the forest that are not attacked by the caterpillars have been shown to contain elevated levels of tannins and lignins WITHOUT being preyed upon by the caterpillars. The affected trees are releasing chemical pheromones that the unaffected trees detect that, in essence, WARN THEM about the possibility of future attack (this has been documented). The unaffected trees again do not reproduce that year and instead invest their energy in defense. This is COMMUNICATION between plants. Amazing.

2nd Example
The acacia tree actually chemically enslaves an animal (ant) to serve it. The ants live in the tree. The tree produces a nectar that the ants eat (along with the tree pollen). In return, the ants defend the tree from herbivores. However, that has not been good enough for the tree. The tree's nectar contains an enzyme called INVERTASE which is used to convert sugars (beekeepers are probably familiar with it). Most animals produce invertase naturally. The nectar also contains a compound that - once the adult ant drinks it - destroys the ants ability to produce its own invertase. So, if the ant ever leaves the tree - it will die. The ant becomes the trees slave.

So I ask - how are these organisms less alive or somehow lacking in some animal quality that makes it ok to eat them but not ok to eat animals?

I killed three deer this year and butchered 20 ****erels - so far, they have all been delicious.


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## thehackleguy

:thumbsup:


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## Michael Bush

Has anyone met a "fruitarian?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism


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## Eduardo Gomes

Rightly or wrongly, supported or not supported by a new interpretation of scientific data, the truth is that vegan established boundaries between what they think that is ethical consuming and what they think is unethical to consume. This thread has shown that some of the fundamentals of theirs assumptions has several holes, from our point of view, and that they have an erroneous idea about most of the beekeeping in the world. 

However some of their objections to certain beekeeping practices may deserve our attention towards a more careful and ethics interaction with our bees.


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## apis maximus

Eduardo,

This is the most coherent, clear thought I have come across on this thread. Just plain Wow. Well, to me anyways.
However, going back on this thread, right from the source, right from the beginning, reading every post, I have just realized, that some other very clear, to me, thoughts were expressed.

One in particular:


sqkcrk said:


> I was surprised by that one time too. We all have our own ideas on life and what is right for us ourselves. I have never had a vegan knock at my door asking had I heard of the Gospel of Veganism. Let's respect those who may see things differently.





sqkcrk said:


> Now that seems to cross the line for me. That is mislabeling. There are so many beekeepers up in arms about "Honey Blend" and even pollenless honey these days, saying neither is honey and shouldn't be labeled as honey and here comes this stuff. It isn't Honey and shouldn't be labeled as such, no matter how cutely misspell "honee". Whose Dept of Ag do I report these guys to?


I meant One individual not one quote. One individual firing two messages. Very coherent. To me that is.

Mr. Mark Berninghausen knows his bees. Other individuals bees also. He has been an Apiary Inspector. NY I think. He is and remains a beekeeper.
A good one at that. I say this, not because I know the man. I don't. It is only by seeing his thoughts expressed in his words. Written words. On this very Forum.

Not to put words in anyone mouth. In his own words, spoken clearly in his Maternal language, he says: "Now that seems to cross the line for me. That is *mislabeling*" . FWIW, I fully agree. Mislabeling simply means using the wrong words.

Mr. Berninghausen, please call me on it if you think I am crossing your line. "Now that seems to cross the line for me." 
That line I meant.

Respectfully, apis. Out.


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## NDnewbeek

Michael Bush said:


> Has anyone met a "fruitarian?"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism


Or how about a "Freegan"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeganism


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## Nabber86

Eduardo Gomes said:


> This thread has shown that some of the fundamentals of theirs assumptions has several holes, from our point of view, and that they have an erroneous idea about most of the beekeeping in the world.


Right. You can argue with a vegan about microbes, apple pollination, caterpillars eating leaves, ants, ect. until you are blue in the face. They are going to look at you and say that you are the one that is building extreme cases to attack their position. Has anyone here actually talked to a vegan? Most of the ones that I have met are very pragmatic in their approach. As I said above, they are against the exploitation of animals. Who here can argue with that basic premise?*** Obviously "exploitation" is a subjective term and we can get all pedantic trying to pin them down by pointing out what we see as flaws in an argument that we created. Again, they will look at you and say that they are against the exploitation of animals and some of them (not all) will say that you have to draw the line somewhere. It is easy decision to draw the line at honey. 


*** Do any of you think that keeping dolphins or whales in a tank for the sole purpose of our entertainment (Sea World, for instance) as exploiting animals? A lot of perfectly logical, meat eating people consider this to be the case, but don't have "Free Willy" bumper stickers on their cars. They draw their line way up high. If you walk up to such as person and tell them that their logic is faulty and call them a hypocrite because they eat factory raised chickens; and therefore should support the confinement of dolphins and whales, they are going to call *you* the crazy one.

It's all a matter of perspective.


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## apis maximus

Nabber86 said:


> Right. You can argue with a vegan about microbes, apple pollination, caterpillars eating leaves, ants, ect. until you are blue in the face. They are going to look at you and say that you are the one that is building extreme cases to attack their position. Has anyone here actually talked to a vegan? Most of the ones that I have met are very pragmatic in their approach.


Right. Correct. 

Yes, I did. Talk with a lot of vegans, vegetarians, meat eaters, gluten phobics...take your pick. Always. It is us, on a spectrum. Stop fighting. Stop engaging. Yes, you can build a water tight argument, scientific and all that. And you'll be right. But then what? Burn the unbelievers? Or those that think differently? Than you? Or me?

Start sharing. 

Just sharing your perspective. No bumper stickers> No slogans. You are right. A matter of perspective. Not a cult. Different cults call each other, as you correctly point out, "crazy". And each one is right. In their mind.

"A lot of perfectly logical".... you are kidding right? Rhetorical on my part. You are not kidding.

"Honey Badger Don't Care". That line is very catchy indeed. Honey badgers are some mighty tough creatures. But whoever started that meme.:scratch:..lets not even go there.


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## Nabber86

apis maximus said:


> "Honey Badger Don't Care". That line is very catchy indeed. Honey badgers are some mighty tough creatures. But whoever started that meme.:scratch:..lets not even go there.


It's not so bad (some 4-letter words). 72 million hits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg

My kids have the Tee-Shirt


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## apis maximus

Nabber86 said:


> It's not so bad (some 4-letter words). 72 million hits:
> My kids have the Tee-Shirt


That was my point exactly. Lots of views, lots of people, being inspired by a 4 letter word...it would get XXXX here on this fine forum. Yes, for good reason. And then we go and innocently put it on T-shirts. For our kids to wear. Inspiration indeed. Not so bad. Agreed. But still bad.

Our kids. Our seeds. Ponder on that thought for a bit.

But when I was talking about sharing, and not engaging, I meant something like what you so selfless have shared on the thread with honey and vodka. You even posted a picture of a important tool in that trade. Mead making trade. Craft.



Nabber86 said:


> Get an alcohol hydrometer. They are cheap and come in really handy:


That is the sharing I was referring to. I know, you know what I am talking about. Just share.


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## Danpa14

If we were all the same it would be a boring world!.....and who would we talk about then?


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## Nabber86

apis maximus said:


> That was my point exactly. Lots of views, lots of people, being inspired by a 4 letter word...it would get XXXX here on this fine forum. Yes, for good reason. And then we go and innocently put it on T-shirts. For our kids to wear. Inspiration indeed. Not so bad. Agreed. But still bad.
> 
> Our kids. Our seeds. Ponder on that thought for a bit.


Not sure where are going with that, but my kids showed me the video in the first place and we all laughed hardily. They eschew most all forms pop culture, but do loves their interweb memes. I should also mention that I call them kids, but they are 18 and 23 years old.


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## angel

I didn't read the entire 5 pages of threads but this stems from PETA saying it exploits bees. They were "iffy" about it for awhile and then they came to the conclusion that yes, its not "vegan like", thus the vegans took note and turned their noses up at honey. I'm vegan by the way and screw PETA. 

The funny thing is, PETA didn't think that vegan foods would not exist if there were no bees, thus beekeepers to keep them alive.


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## Michael Bush

>Or how about a "Freegan"?

The only Freegans I've met don't know they are Freegans... they think they are just homeless...


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## Nabber86

angel said:


> I'm vegan by the way and screw PETA.


So do you eat honey? If so, can you tell us why you think manipulating honeybees to get honey is not exploitation? How is it any different than a chicken farm?


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## Oldtimer

Not speaking for Angel, but me personally, I consider beekeeping a whole heap different to a chicken farm.

In fact the life of a battery hen egg producer is so horrific I never support the practise by buying the eggs I pay more & get free range. The life of a bee in a kept hive is totally different. It is free to come and go and do exactly what bees have always done for thousands of years, it is not even aware it lives in a kept hive and is perfectly happy as far as that works out for bees.


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## apis maximus

Danpa14 said:


> If we were all the same it would be a boring world!.....and who would we talk about then?


We are not the same. Never were, never are, the same. 

We wouldn't be talking about who...whom...We would be talking and sharing with each other. Different things. Very interesting things.

Because each one of us is not the same.

Is any of you, posting, replying on this forum think otherwise? As in not being unique? Don't bother answering that. Rhetorical on my part.

I know you are unique. That is the beauty I am enjoying. Observing. Your uniqueness.


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## apis maximus

Nabber86 said:


> Not sure where are going with that, but my kids showed me the video in the first place and we all laughed hardily. They eschew most all forms pop culture, but do loves their interweb memes. I should also mention that I call them kids, but they are 18 and 23 years old.


Not sure. Yes. I agree. I should have not called it, "Not so bad. Agreed. But still bad." 
I apologize for that. My bad.
It is simply a different choice you have partaken with and for your kids. They, your kids, showed it to you. And you guys, just like any other good, loving family, you all laughed. Hard. I do the same with my kids. A bit older kids than yours. I love them. I know you do the same.
Yes, you are right, your now older kids, you still call them kids. I do the same with mine. Probably will till' the end. Well, my end anyways. 
Seeds, thoughts are planted all the time. Even when that happens involuntarily.

Are you and I the same? Rhetorical only.


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## gnor

sqkcrk said:


> "A unique sweetener with the perfect hint of tartness, Bee Free Honee is “apple honey” in that it’s made from apples and not bees! Using only three all-natural ingredients (apple, beet sugar and lemon juice), there’s nothing remotely artificial, and it contains absolutely no added colors and no corn syrup.
> 
> Bee Free Honee is made in Minnesota using strictly Midwest apples. The bottles and caps are from nearby in-state manufacturers as well as the boxes, labels and printing, making this a truly local item that supports local business.
> 
> Use Bee Free Honee in your favorite recipes anywhere you’d normally use honey or agave nectar, add it to beverages for a great natural sweetener, top off your desserts, pancakes and waffles…anywhere that you can use the sweetness and flavor of honey, you’ll have Bee Free Honey as the perfect cruelty-free alternative."
> 
> Now that seems to cross the line for me. That is mislabeling. There are so many beekeepers up in arms about "Honey Blend" and even pollenless honey these days, saying neither is honey and shouldn't be labeled as honey and here comes this stuff. It isn't Honey and shouldn't be labeled as such, no matter how cutely misspell "honee". Whose Dept of Ag do I report these guys to?


I guess people don't realize that some poor sod trucked his bees hundreds of miles to pollinate those apples, so they could be "bee free." I wonder how much fossil fuel was used to concentrate the sugar to the 18% level of honey?


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## gnor

Q: How can you tell if a person is vegan?
A: You don't have to. They'll tell you.


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## j.kuder

shallow thinkers


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## gnor

johno said:


> A friend who offered honey to a vegan was told "no thanks that's the food that was stolen from the baby bees" Go figure.
> Johno


Yeah, I'll just have an apple instead (grown in rows, selectively bred, fetiilized, pruned, sprayed, trucked).


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## j.kuder

gnor said:


> Yeah, I'll just have an apple instead (grown in rows, selectively bred, fetiilized, pruned, sprayed, trucked).


how many lives were snuffed out when that tractor rolls down the rows between the apple trees?


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## gnor

NDnewbeek said:


> Or how about a "Freegan"?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeganism


They are quite common. We often call them "homeless"!


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## SeaCucumber

I'm mostly vegan. I think I eat 5 ml/year honey. Don't have much. Sugar is bad.


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