# Hive wrap cheap and easy



## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

I would be concerned about moisture build up using those.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

While it is true that black objects capture more daytime solar radiation (heat) than white objects, the *inverse* is also true at night. Black objects at night radiate more heat than white objects, so in effect, at night the black hive body will lose more heat than if that same hive body was white. https://www.thenakedscientists.com/articles/questions/what-loses-heat-fastest-white-or-black-surface

The net effect is that black objects will have greater temperature swings over a 24 hour period than white objects.


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## Cjj (Dec 12, 2015)

I don't think they will be much different then the corrugated plastic wraps , I will keep an eye on them I will let you know how they work out


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## Cjj (Dec 12, 2015)

Rader sidetrack what about tar papar ?


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Cjj said:


> Rader sidetrack what about tar papar ?


I am not him, but the results will be largely the same.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?330325-Winter-Wrapping-Rigid-Foam-vs-Roofing-Felt


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

This is what I use on my 6 hive commercial pallets. 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reflectix-48-in-x-100-ft-Double-Reflective-Insulation-BP48100/202092205

I fold it into 3 equal width layers and then wrap it around 3 hives at a time, side by side. I secure the insulation to the hives with 2 hive straps pulled tight. It is amazing how much heat this insulation retains inside the hive. 

You can buy and trim various width rolls to work on individual hives and nucs.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> While it is true that black objects capture more daytime solar radiation (heat) than white objects, the *inverse* is also true at night. Black objects at night radiate more heat than white objects, so in effect, at night the black hive body will lose more heat than if that same hive body was white. https://www.thenakedscientists.com/articles/questions/what-loses-heat-fastest-white-or-black-surface
> 
> The net effect is that black objects will have greater temperature swings over a 24 hour period than white objects.


There is a lot more to it than color such as the ability of a material to retain heat. While the black wrap may lose heat quickly because of the material the wood underneath acts as a heat sink and will not fluctuate as quickly as the wrap. Also, the black object will have larger temperature swings because warm objects lose heat (energy) quicker than cold objects. Both of these are related to thermal conductivity 

So, with two pieces of metal being the same except one is black one white, the black one will heat up more in the sun (absorb energy) but it cools more quickly because it has more energy to begin with. Both of them will eventually reach the ambient temperature, but the black one will not reach that temperature quicker than the white one.

Not trying to get into a nerd discussion even though I am one.


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## djhiban12 (Dec 6, 2008)

Steve in PA said:


> There is a lot more to it than color such as the ability of a material to retain heat. While the black wrap may lose heat quickly because of the material the wood underneath acts as a heat sink and will not fluctuate as quickly as the wrap. Also, the black object will have larger temperature swings because warm objects lose heat (energy) quicker than cold objects. Both of these are related to thermal conductivity
> 
> So, with two pieces of metal being the same except one is black one white, the black one will heat up more in the sun (absorb energy) but it cools more quickly because it has more energy to begin with. Both of them will eventually reach the ambient temperature, but the black one will not reach that temperature quicker than the white one.
> 
> Not trying to get into a nerd discussion even though I am one.


I love a good nerd discussion. I think what is being said is that black with radiate heat quicker than white given that they are at the same temperature. The outer layer of a hive should be warmer then the atmosphere around it, to what degree will depend on how well the hive is insulating. If it is insulating well, then it should be near the temperature of the outside, if it is not, then it will be significantly warmer than the surrounding. Imagine putting your hand on a skittle (bad insulator) that is over a flame versus a wood cutting board over a flame (good insulator if it doesn't catch ). People attribute a lot of heat loss to conduction and convection, but radiation though ultraviolet light is a very significant portion. Your body actually loses 50% of it's heat through radiation. 

Essentially, if black radiates heat faster you might increase the difference in temperature between the outside layer of the hive and the inside of the hive, increasing the rate at which heat is lost (since it is a function of this temperature difference). Honestly though, the rate at which light is emitted from an object has little to do with the color. May it be helpful dissipation heat from the shuttle upon entry? (I guess?) Does it matter much to a beehive. (Probably not). It would be better to stick to something black, that might help reduce some of the heat loss during the day. Better yet, get something reflective which can mitigate your heat loss at night, when temperatures are at their lowest.

I normally sit back since I don't know that much. Keep pitching the thermo questions, that is my wheelhouse !


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

"I love a good nerd discussion." ? Me too as long as they are civil.

This whole thread has given me an idea for an experiment for my daughter's science class. Pour hot water into two teacups, preferably black and white, then plot the temperatures over time. The temperature plot should give the K value in the formula.

Back to the original subject...Radiation is why I use foil-faced insulation on the top of the hive facing down. I put a piece on top, then a piece of fiberglass batt on top of that. I have my hives shoved together, a scrap of foam board on the north face, and the whole thing wrapped with roofing felt left from a roof replacement.

I don't know about solar gain/loss, but I believe the roofing felt does provide a boundary layer between outside and inside temps. Much like an unheated porch in older homes kept the coldest air and drafts out. 

One small correction, It's infrared that radiates most heat, not uv. IR is the heat we feel from the sun.


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

bushpilot said:


> I would be concerned about moisture build up using those.


My thoughts exactly


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## Cjj (Dec 12, 2015)

Good so far I am keeping an eye on them


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## djhiban12 (Dec 6, 2008)

@ Steve 

I don?t believe I said anything that wasn?t civil. Correct me if I am wrong. 

Absolutely right, should be infrared not UV. I reached for the word without even thinking about it fully. Good catch


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Djhiban12, Steve never said that you weren't being civil, he just likes civil discussions. I love it when two nerds start to argue because, well, it is hilarious. Somebody do the teacup experiment. Would love to learn the results.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm with you JW, I would like to see the teacup results. The heat loss rate theory may work with teacups, but it doesn't hold up when done with beekeeping equipment.

I have done the white box, dark box with beekeeping equipment and the theory that we see written stating that the dark will be cool faster doesn't hold up. The overnight low temperatures will be the same, the highs in the dark box will last longer than the highs in the white box because of the greater increase in heat buildup in the dark box, and in my test the white box actually lost temperature faster than the dark box. I think the rosin content of the wood makes more difference in the rate of heat loss than the color of the box.


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## Bob J (Feb 25, 2013)

Not having tried this yet it seems cheap and easy to install..... Moisture buildup shouldn't be a problem if you open the top and leave the bottom entrance exposed so it just covers the sides..... Opening the top also would make it easier to check stores in the early spring if you are using fondant or candy boards.....


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## Cjj (Dec 12, 2015)

OK Just checked a few hives sun is shining and the wind is blowing , in the teens with the wind chill , I do run a top and bottom entrance with 2in Styrofoam on top of the inner cover so i don't think there will be any condensation on the inside , 72 degree on the outside of the black plastic and 52 on the tar paper ones ,there was no condensation between the plastic and the outside of the hive , will see how it go's


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## cbay (Mar 27, 2017)

Live Oak said:


> This is what I use on my 6 hive commercial pallets.
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reflectix-48-in-x-100-ft-Double-Reflective-Insulation-BP48100/202092205
> 
> ...


Interested to know if you have used this for a while? Earlier this year i was considering reflectix and couldn't find much from beekeeper's using it...
Seems like it may be a better option than the tar paper i went with. At least it has some r value and would wrap better than the tar paper.


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## djhiban12 (Dec 6, 2008)

@JWPalmer 
Just wanted to make sure I hadn?t stepped on any toes.  

It would be interesting to see if someone made a product that had a clear outside layer and black underlayer. It coukd be slightly inflated, and might give you a nice insulating airpocket that benefited from the the greenhouse effect.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Make it even better, one way reflective film on the outside, then the bubble wrap, finally the black plastic inside. IR heat gets in but can't get out.

Hmmm. Some mirrored window tint, bubble wrap, a plastic trash bag and a can of spray glue. Might work.


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## cbay (Mar 27, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> Make it even better, one way reflective film on the outside, then the bubble wrap, finally the black plastic inside. IR heat gets in but can't get out.
> 
> Hmmm. Some mirrored window tint, bubble wrap, a plastic trash bag and a can of spray glue. Might work.


Or get some reflectix and spray it black on one side.. ?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Must confess I am not familiar with reflectix. The black needs to be where light shines on it through the reflective material and the radiant heat bounces back off the mirrored side. 
Time to do some research.


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## scituatema (Aug 30, 2014)

last winter here in Massachusetts I used a black trash bag to cover a 5 frame nuc made of plywood with a migratory cover.
I created air space between nuc and the bag, like a nuc in a bubble . the reason is that if any moisture builds it stays away from the bees which did not build that much and holds more warmer air inside.
nuc came out alive.


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## Cjj (Dec 12, 2015)

I don't think moisture is going to be a problem , i cut the bottom of the bags off and the cut the bags in half that gave me the two wraps , the tops are open plus i have top and bottom entrances i can just take the top off and get to the inter cover without removing the wrap , there is some air getting between the wrap and the hive so there is no moisture there


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

If you do the teacup experiment, use closed containers. The heat loss from evaporation on the surface of the teacup will is likely to overwhelm the loss from radiation. I suppose you would have to do the experiment in a vacuum if you wanted to limit the heat loss to radiation alone.
Bill


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Cjj said:


> I don't think moisture is going to be a problem , i cut the bottom of the bags off and the cut the bags in half that gave me the two wraps , the tops are open plus i have top and bottom entrances i can just take the top off and get to the inter cover without removing the wrap , there is some air getting between the wrap and the hive so there is no moisture there
> View attachment 36695


You will accomplish far better result with Bee Cozy's. Triple layers of Reflectix strapped on at the top and bottom edge of the material will do even better. What you are hopefully working to accomplish is too reflect as much heat that the honey bee cluster produces back into the hive. It i about thermal mass conservation. Yes black material will absorb solar light and become warm to the touch or at least warmer than its surroundings but that heat is not transferred into the hive. At best, a very little might be. 

Once you have located the postion of the honey bee cluster inside the hive, you insulate that area the most to help conserve the heat the cluster produces. I insulate the box above the cluster as well especially if there is honey in it. If the bees empty out the box, I remove it. Again it is about thermal mass conservation and the less space the honey bee cluster has to occupy and warm, the better it is for them especially with respect to the amount of carbohydrate resources they must consume to maintain the warmth inside the cluster. 

As an added level of protection for my bees, I am currently going through my apiary and checking resources. Any box I find that is empty gets removed. If the cluster is not in or near the top of the hive, I remove that box and add six #6 scoops 

https://www.mannlakeltd.com/scoop

of Mann Lake Bulk Pro Winter Patty mix (the regular patties SUCK and are a huge mess to deal with pealing them apart) (The 50 lb. buckets work fantastic)

https://www.mannlakeltd.com/shop-al.../pollen-substitute/patties/pro-winter-patties

and gently press it down in between the frames to the patty mix is in contact with the cluster. The cluster MUST be in contact with there honey or carbohydrate resources or they are at risk to starve to death if a cold spell hits. Yes the patty mix is more expensive than sugar but I am feeding about 60 hives and doling it out like this makes life SOOOOOOO much easier. 

I also put out 14 Mann Lake Pro Feeders https://www.mannlakeltd.com/shop-al...nance/feeders/misc-feeders/dry-bee-pro-feeder

Each feeder gets about 15 lbs. of Mann Lake Ultra Bee which my bees will go through quickly during warmer weather but still work on even in colder temperatures down to about 40 degrees on occasion. 

A well insulated honey bee cluster does not consume near as much as one with nothing on the hive. Before I put the insulation on my hives resently, my girls went through about 1,600 lbs. of heavy sugar syrup. (two 450 lb. barrels of sugar is what it took me to make that). They consumed it in less than a month. Due to recovery from surgery I was a little late getting the syrup on the hives and lost 2 big hives to starvation. It is VERY important that you keep a close eye on their resources and insulate as much as you can because they can run out of food resources quickly and you may not realize it until it is too late.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

whiskers said:


> If you do the teacup experiment, use closed containers. The heat loss from evaporation on the surface of the teacup will is likely to overwhelm the loss from radiation. I suppose you would have to do the experiment in a vacuum if you wanted to limit the heat loss to radiation alone.
> Bill


Won't matter. The only variable between two side-by-side cups on the same countertop filled with water from the same containter will be the color of the cup, at least for purposes of a middle school science experiment.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Steve in PA said:


> Won't matter. The only variable between two side-by-side cups on the same countertop filled with water from the same containter will be the color of the cup, at least for purposes of a middle school science experiment.


Aw, come on. You didn't even address what happens to a liquid in a vacuum.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

JWPalmer said:


> Aw, come on. You didn't even address what happens to a liquid in a vacuum.


Or light


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

My first winter I found an article on cluster size / Temps. It was really interesting how the bees moved and the cluster got tight. By the way the temp went I think into -30 degrees. When I saw that chart, I have no worries about bees making it through a cold winter. Of coarse I live in Texas and I say that. When you think of terms that -30 the bees get super tight; move into a center mass and come springtime they survive, it's impressive. Late fall make sure mite count is fine and hive weight is sufficient. Bees should bee coming out strong in springtime. Last winter in January my bees were pretty active and by Mid February they pretty the queens were laying like the end of winter. It was a very warm winter last year. This year more normal of a winter with some colder weather spells so far. Certainly chillier and the bees are not flying as they were the past winter time. 
For those of you that are new: YouTube is a great learning time to watch videos of bee seminars and long term veterans of the bee keepers we have been blessed with. Micheal Palmer probably the most renowned currently that I can come up with. His trail of being a beekeeper from start to learning from trial and error is fascinating. He's got his hands on nearly every early publishing and tried it, done it-shared his experience.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

I used Reflectix this year as a wrap and find it to be very easy to work with cutting to size etc. unlike expanded poly. My concern is that the sun won't pass through any heat. Maybe one of you nerds can help me out with that. It seems though that the heat from the cluster will , to some extent, reflected back into the hive. As my bees rarely work the outermost frames I was going to make a frame of Reflectix for each side of the upper box (where the bees normaly winter and where they are in touch with the sugar & winter patties.
However, never got around to it-there is always next year.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I don't wrap since "hive-inside-hive" configuration has it all at once (double-wall; ventilation; windbreak).
Winter on *fewer *frames that the hive body allows so that there are air pockets on both sides of the cluster (or even on all four sides is possible too).
Use follower boards (optionally insulated) to build the "inside hive".
The outer walls of the "outside hive" are the windbreak.
Have enough air cushion below the frames and in the air pockets between outer and inner walls (at least a frame-wide).


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

The intent of black wrap or insulation is to allow temp inside the hive to be sufficient to allow cluster to keep moving to supplies or for bees to move supplies to the cluster. The benefit of wrap or insulation are diminished if there is a significant air flow through the hive as a result of large and wide open entrances and screened bottom boards. One only needs enough ventilation to remove moisture and bring in oxygen.

With a black wrap one is relying on thermal gain of sun to sufficiently warm the interior during the day for cluster to move and/or bees moving supplies back to the cluster.

With insulated wrap, solar gain is significantly reduced, and one is relying on heat from the cluster to be retained within the hive and interior hive temp to be sufficient for movement of the cluster and movement of the bees. 

The mantel of the cluster needs to be 40-45F in order for the cluster to move. At 50-55F bees can leave the cluster to bring stores back to the cluster.

If the hive interior is too cold for too long, the cluster is not able to move onto stores. With no food to generate heat with, the bees die.

The interior temperature of an insulated hive with good sized population, and with minimal ventilation of the hive is considerably higher than outside ambient.


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