# Oh Crap.... My TF Hives are Crashing!!!!!



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Five of my hives will crash next year, if I believe what is written here by some people.
Until that I will enjoy their health.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

I have a bunch that should have crashed about 12 yrs. ago why they didn't I don't know:scratch:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Mine try to crash on numerous occasion but I
treat them with oav to rescue them. Eventually I
will find a few good queens that have the resistant trait.
Or get a few from the no treat apiary.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Good title....sucked me in.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

thehackleguy said:


> Good title....sucked me in.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

You dirty trickster, you!


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Ya, and the eventual question, what's your mite count.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Just watching the "Views" number rise!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Which queens are we talking, biggraham610? RT VSH? Second generation VSH? Buckfasts? All of them? Or only the ones with a single little horn sprouting out between their eyes?


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## J Ornouski (Apr 4, 2014)

What is a TF Hive?


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## Beeathlon (Jul 28, 2015)

It is like a observation hive. You just set up a hive and see what happens.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Beeathlon said:


> It is like a observation hive. You just set up a hive and see what happens.


For the majority of TF folks out in the big wide world (the ones who buy a package of bees and don't treat (because they don't even know that varroa/nosema/AFB/EFB/etc exist)... that is very much the case.

I don't believe that to be the case with the OP in any way, shape, or form.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

J Ornouski said:


> What is a TF Hive?


Treatment Free. A favorite topic here as the TF crowd is a minority. The average honeybee these days is so domesticated that they can only survive with the help of beekeepers, but TF beekeepers are trying to breed bees than don't need so much help.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

I have some bees. They are hooked on nectar and pollen really bad. They just won't listen to me. I keep telling them not to scrounge in garbage cans for empty pop cans with a little in the bottom. They're treatment free but am pretty sure soda pop has HFCS or sugar in it so...not really.
(sarcasm detectors should be beeping about............NOW).


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Don't be so sinister Vance. I don't bash people that treat, have treated in the past, and am not saying I never will in the future. Just seems I don't have to at the present. 

JW. the majority are 2nd and 3rd generation Ridgetop VSH. G


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Phoebee said:


> Treatment Free. A favorite topic here as the TF crowd is a minority. The average honeybee these days is so domesticated that they can only survive with the help of beekeepers, but TF beekeepers are trying to breed bees than don't need so much help.


Eloquently said Phoebee! What's interesting is the large movement for beekeepers seeking TF queens not only by TF beekeepers but those who treat as well. Though we are indeed a minority it seems the majority of beekeepers are starting to understand the importance of TF bees and queens.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Not really, they look great.

You so disappointed a lot of "I told you so"s


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Slow Drone said:


> Eloquently said Phoebee! What's interesting is the large movement for beekeepers seeking TF queens not only by TF beekeepers but those who treat as well. Though we are indeed a minority it seems the majority of beekeepers are starting to understand the importance of TF bees and queens.


My wife and I are IPM, not TF. But we are trying to move to better bees that can be TF (not treating when IPM says we are under control). I know Michael feels that mite counts don't matter as much as bee survival and productivity when it comes to judging TF bees, but for the moment mite counts and visible disease indications are the only guideline I have, and why at the moment we're working with VSH bees.

But I would be totally unsurprised if, in ten years, most beekeepers in the US are no longer treating for varroa. We'll be as glad that is over as we are to not be noticing tracheal mites. We'll be worried by something else, Large Hive Beetles maybe. And the reason will be TF bees will have quietly pushed out the susceptible lines.

For our new member Jay Ornouski, IPM is Integrated Pest Management (among other things, measure the problem and treat if it exceeds a threshold that makes it worthwhile). VSH is Varroa Sensitive Hygenic, bees that remove varroa-infested brood. And Michael Bush is the guru of treatment free bees.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

It's early yet. Let me know how many hives make it through winter. I do wish you luck.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

So what happens when you have a TF apiary for 10+ yrs things look good. Now you start bringing in fresh stock? Now what happens?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Clayton Huestis said:


> So what happens when you have a TF apiary for 10+ yrs things look good. Now you start bringing in fresh stock? Now what happens?


We smack you up side the head for being silly and doing it backwards. You go TF successfully for 10+ years and you're supposed to be raising queens and selling them to all the TF wannabees.

Why would you WANT to bring in outside stock, except maybe other TF candidates to cross with your own stock in an isolated outyard?


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## bbruff22 (Dec 24, 2013)

thehackleguy said:


> Good title....sucked me in.


ditto...that's good stuff


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Mr.Beeman said:


> It's early yet. Let me know how many hives make it through winter. I do wish you luck.


That it is, but in my brief experience, in my area, doomed hives are usually showing outward signs by now. Mite losses will happen by Dec. Our real winter is Jan., and Feb. Thanks, and I will keep you posted. G


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Beeathlon said:


> It is like a observation hive. You just set up a hive and see what happens.


That was my experience last year.
Thought I could do it like this but no chance.
Came to realize, I need bees regressed to a "natural state" or have to regress them myself.

> You go TF successfully for 10+ years and you're supposed to be raising queens and selling them to all the TF wannabes.<

As a newbie I started once more with resistant stock and will do it as quoted above with the help of my TF beekeeping friends.
Michael Bush is one of my gurus, too. As is my mentor.

>It's early yet. Let me know how many hives make it through winter. I do wish you luck.<

You know beeman, thats not really a clear evidence, because treated bee yards have losses, too. Nature is unpredictable. 


What I like most about trying TF is the learning about bee behavior and to be open to new ways of management.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> You know beeman, thats not really a clear evidence, because treated bee yards have losses, too. Nature is unpredictable.


Significantly less losses, however. Saying "well this treating beekeeper still lost 5 or 10% of their hives" while the same sized TF beekeeper is sitting on 50-75% loss isn't really the same comparison, is it? Mites are not unpredictable. You get the pleasure of dealing with them somehow. Either the right bees, the right management, the right treatment... Much of the mentality here is that if you're "TF" you don't have to deal with mites... I recall someone once saying here that he wishes he could quit talking about varroa, as though it no longer exists. The tooth fairy is something you quit talking about... We are all dealing with varroa in one way or another. Be that resistant bees, or organic acids, or synthetic miticides, or splitting our colonies and letting nature sort it out shortly before we collect the pieces and pretend we lost none to varroa. It's still a dead colony of bees regardless. 

My advice is to find someone who started like you did and got to where you want to be. They should be able to provide specifics, queen sources, treatment options, management options, etc. It should be wildly evident that they know what they're talking about when you interact with them. Read between the lines of all the experts... dig a little deeper as there are lots of nuggets out there and a whole history of posts you can go back and read.

There's a lot of bluster about a ton of goofy stuff on this website. I've been part of it in one way or another in my short time here and bought WAY too much of what the peddlers were selling. The cool part is you can go back on this forum and re-read all your old posts when you've been doing this for a full year. And then really at any time in the future too. I do on occasion and realize what a ding-dong I was. Learning can happen fast if you let it. Try not to be blinded by all the hubbub, as it is easy to do.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

JW
Everybody should decide his, her own way. 
Let`s just try to accept each other.

I wonder why so many people think TF hives are not managed?
My mentor told me of so much things one could do even without treatment. I will learn.


My fellow mainstream beekeeper friends do treatment, because it`s easier and less work, that`s what they tell me.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Beeathlon said:


> It is like a observation hive. You just set up a hive and see what happens.


That may be your interpretation of a treatment free hive, but not mine. That would be my interpretation of a crap-shoot. I am very active in my hives, I let the best seemingly most resistant hives raise queens. Struggling hives get requeened with said raised queens. G


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I wonder if the day will ever come where a thread discussing TF beekeeping isn't riddled with snarky remarks from the peanut gallery.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Amen- G


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> I wonder why so many people think TF hives are not managed?


The majority of beekeepers I know are TF. Vast majority actually. I'm not 100% sure that any of them could ID worker from drone brood. I know a lot of them struggle to ID queen cells. Most of them are just opening their hives (occasionally) and saying "Wow, there are my bees!" Pulling a few frames and treating it like a hamster... well it's not dead so it must be OK. Their hives die in the winter and they scratch their heads and wonder why. There are absolutely people here (Like the OP and others) and everywhere "doing it right". But that is NOT the average TF beekeeper nationwide, trust me. 

I didn't mean any of my above comments to be personally about you necessarily. Like I said 70% of beekeepers in my state are TF and they lose the majority of their hives (on average) year after year after year. The trouble is that most of those people don't have a plan. Their plan is some half-baked idea they read on someone's website. So they shake a package onto plastic frames and when they check back in August their "strong hive just last week" is no more. We all know it's not that easy despite what information is available out there advertising that it is.

SiWolKe, I do hope that you keep us updated on your progress. I think a lot of people OVERestimate the knowledge in Joe Average Beekeeper when they first start out. Some people just don't have the drive to learn like others do.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I would love to be treatment free. I think in our area, one could only do that with a strain of hygenic bees. If there were enough drones to maintain the bloodlines that would be great. For a small beekeeper annual re-queening with bought queens would be required. Probably cheaper and more effective to use OAV for now.

I am wondering if I should alternate and use MAQs for the next treatment to avoid developing resistant mites.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> The majority of beekeepers I know are TF. Vast majority actually. I'm not 100% sure that any of them could ID worker from drone brood. I know a lot of them struggle to ID queen cells. Most of them are just opening their hives (occasionally) and saying "Wow, there are my bees!" Pulling a few frames and treating it like a hamster... well it's not dead so it must be OK. Their hives die in the winter and they scratch their heads and wonder why. There are absolutely people here (Like the OP and others) and everywhere "doing it right". But that is NOT the average TF beekeeper nationwide, trust me.


I have met a few people, typically at county fairs or other public outreach events, that used to keep bees but the bees died. But the vast majority of beekeepers I know are very well informed, and most treat. All can tell capped drone brood from a queen cell at 20 paces, except for a few older ones who need their reading glasses. But what do I know ... I mostly hang around with our club. 

These days it is hard to believe you meet that many beekeepers that just ignore their hives. It is not hard to believe you find people who tried beekeeping without benefit of a bee school, and now have some empty woodenware in the back yard.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

If you want to Play Golf, you go to the range, If you want to play guitar, you learn scales and chord's and practice, If you want a clean kill in the field, you make sure your weapon is sighted and only take well placed shots. Anyone who throws a package of bees in a box, and expects that is all there is to it, should have researched the Hobby/Addiction/Profession a little more. They are surely set up for failure. G


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I've never been to a bee school and never been to a club meeting. One of the local clubs has a leader that when I talked to him at the state fair had lost all ten of his colonies for 2-3 straight years during winter. But he was TF. It is a little shocking to me as well, to be honest. I am always a little baffled by it. I watched a video of one of the guys scraping a lightly drawn frame of uncapped nectar into a pot on his stove and had gobs of people wanting to buy honey from him. And he had already harvested a pound of wax from the swarm he'd caught a couple weeks before.

Another didn't want to believe mites could have caused his colony's downfall. Even after scraping dead ones off the concrete and Beltsville finding six mites on the roughly 100 DEAD bees he sent. It isn't that they aren't capable of learning, it's that they don't care to learn for the most part. Just keep pretending it's not something you could have prevented I guess. Just a general lack of basic beekeeping skills. And if we think it's bad now, wait until next spring when the you-know-what hive comes out... I've already got people pinging me as their "resource for bee questions". Not sure I want that role as it's a thankless volunteer position.

They are all great guys and I enjoy when they tag along with me or want to chat about bees. It just seems like once the hive gets closed up their inquisitiveness is over and they never really digest it.

G is right about the golf/guitar/hunting analogy. I think the hunting one is most apt because it's involves life/death. When I bow hunt I feel that I owe that animal at least the respect to have practiced shooting and be confident that I can make the shot I am taking. And to be able to make the best decision about shot placement and whether to take the shot at all. That's not to say that I haven't failed that that, of course I have. Same with bees in the sense that I really think we owe it to them not to kill them en masse strictly due to our ignorance or chosen ideology.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I should also add, there are no migratory beekeepers in my area. There are also, no beekeepers that I _know of _in the immediate area of my main yard. I am sure that helps my efforts, as I am mainly working only with my bees and ferrels. G


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> I've never been to a bee school and never been to a club meeting. One of the local clubs has a leader that when I talked to him at the state fair had lost all ten of his colonies for 2-3 straight years during winter. But he was TF.


Some people can't learn from experience. I think doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is one of the definitions of insanity. However..... maybe this guy is heading the group because he is a good politician. There might be a lot of really great beekeepers there that would be an excellent resource.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

dsegrest said:


> Some people can't learn from experience. I think doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is one of the definitions of insanity. However..... maybe this guy is heading the group because he is a good politician. There might be a lot of really great beekeepers there that would be an excellent resource.


The group doesn't contain a bunch of great beekeepers. In fact it's mostly a bunch of 1-2 year folks (not unlike me) with maybe a hive or two tops. I am on the mailing list and get their communications. I think that the leader retired and started keeping bees. The nearest bee club is a long way away so he started his own. I have nothing against him or any of them. I talk to many of the members frequently. 

Here is one of the most recent communications from them:


Frankly, it feels almost irresponsible to forward something like that out. That's just me though. I don't care to learn about the bee colony's role in our own social and spiritual evolution.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

jwcarlson said:


> The majority of beekeepers I know are TF. Vast majority actually. I'm not 100% sure that any of them could ID worker from drone brood. I know a lot of them struggle to ID queen cells. Most of them are just opening their hives (occasionally) and saying "Wow, there are my bees!" Pulling a few frames and treating it like a hamster... well it's not dead so it must be OK.


The majority of beekeepers I know are treating beekeepers. Most of them are just opening their hives (occasionally) and saying "It's time to treat my bees!" Maybe pulling a few frames and observing... but usually it's just a matter of routine and in go the treatments. Perhaps you need to address your concerns to those around you that haven't a clue what they're doing instead of continually discouraging those here who obviously are aware of their bees and desire to be as proactive as possible in being successful TF beekeepers.



jwcarlson said:


> In fact it's mostly a bunch of 1-2 year folks (not unlike me) with maybe a hive or two tops.


So do you feel you're well versed in beekeeping to advise others that "TF" is a "pipe dream?" What I knew at year two is vastly different than what I know now. Beginners are beginners, whether you treat or not. One has to be committed to learning the art of beekeeping and not just follow what someone says. Learn to hear what your bees are telling you. I'm slow to tell other beekeepers what to do, as long as I see they are committed to the process. There are many ways to manage bees other than the way I do it.


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## bean tree homestead (Nov 18, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> Frankly, it feels almost irresponsible to forward something like that out. That's just me though. I don't care to learn about the bee colony's role in our own social and spiritual evolution.


I am guessing not a lot of talk about DCA or SHB or types of methods for queen raising..


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Well, if anybody is interested in my progress, read "today in the apiary".
IT`s the most important thread here for me as a newbee except "squarepegs experience".
I hope, more newcomers will post and I hope, we will share our success or failures. With honesty. And without bashing.

I´ve been a member of a TF bee forum.
Most of those people care very much for their hives, many too much, disturbing the bees too often. I think once a week is enough to check into a hive.
I left the forum because it was too autocratic, I like people to share their thoughts.
Everybody has his special location, bee race (or mutts), has his own priorities.
I follow Dee Lusby, but my situation is not to be compared with hers.
So I need many opinions to find my own way.

jw what you described above I found in my bee class last year. It was about organic beekeeping, but treatment with acids is a part of it.
Some students had bees but never managed them. 
They joint the class because of the losses.

My problem is that I see treatment as being harmful to my bees and they see treatment as help to survive.
First rule my mentor gave me: don`t weaken the bees with treatment.


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## Beeathlon (Jul 28, 2015)

J Ornouski said:


> What is a TF Hive?





jwcarlson said:


> I've never been to a bee school and never been to a club meeting. One of the local clubs has a leader that when I talked to him at the state fair had lost all ten of his colonies for 2-3 straight years during winter. But he was TF. It is a little shocking to me as well, to be honest. I am always a little baffled by it. I watched a video of one of the guys scraping a lightly drawn frame of uncapped nectar into a pot on his stove and had gobs of people wanting to buy honey from him. And he had already harvested a pound of wax from the swarm he'd caught a couple weeks before.
> 
> Another didn't want to believe mites could have caused his colony's downfall. Even after scraping dead ones off the concrete and Beltsville finding six mites on the roughly 100 DEAD bees he sent. It isn't that they aren't capable of learning, it's that they don't care to learn for the most part. Just keep pretending it's not something you could have prevented I guess. Just a general lack of basic beekeeping skills. And if we think it's bad now, wait until next spring when the you-know-what hive comes out... I've already got people pinging me as their "resource for bee questions". Not sure I want that role as it's a thankless volunteer position.
> 
> ...


I think we are on the same page her, jwcarlson. To anyone infuriated by my previous post, it was supposed to be "tongue in cheek" like the OPs headline. 
My biggest concern about "TF" is that it for some is almost like a religion/ideology. Jwcarlsons add here is a scary example of what kind of crowd that is pulled into "beehaving".


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Beeathlon said:


> My biggest concern about "TF" is that it for some is almost like a religion/ideology. Jwcarlsons add here is a scary example of what kind of crowd that is pulled into "beehaving".


I guess my problem with that statement is, "Who Cares" what someone else does. I have been clear about my standing. What you do and how you treat your hives is your business. We are all adults. We all have Brains. It is not my job to police the beekeeping world and "Protect" those that don't use their mind. It is interesting, there are always a lot more derogatory things spoken about people that choose not to treat, than those who choose to treat. G


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Barry said:


> Perhaps you need to address your concerns to those around you that haven't a clue what they're doing instead of continually discouraging those here who obviously are aware of their bees and desire to be as proactive as possible in being successful TF beekeepers.


The folks I'm referring to know how I feel, but I don't "tell" them what to do, if they ask I would suggest what I would do. The only thing I ever asked was for the guy up the road who has a crashing colony to put on a robbing screen if he'd be so kind.
Am I continually discouraging people here from being TF? Are you confusing me with someone else? I just think people should be skeptical. Ignorant is ignorant, obviously. I think there is a pretty rosy picture painted here by many TF advocates that isn't really the case. Someone with a colony or two that never survives the winter... are they ever going to be able to be successful? I mean they are successfully TF... but at they success beekeepers. Not really. 




Barry said:


> So do you feel you're well versed in beekeeping to advise others that "TF" is a "pipe dream?" What I knew at year two is vastly different than what I know now. Beginners are beginners, whether you treat or not. One has to be committed to learning the art of beekeeping and not just follow what someone says. Learn to hear what your bees are telling you. I'm slow to tell other beekeepers what to do, as long as I see they are committed to the process. There are many ways to manage bees other than the way I do it.


Did I advise anyone that it's a pipe dream? My "issue" with the people I'm talking about is there is no commitment to get better, not that they are TF... but that they are simply TF because of neglect. Just buy a few more packages and shake some more bees in next year... that's the grand plan. To be be frank I'd rather the people around me treat for mites and keep their colonies in good health just like I am trying to do. I have no problem with people with strong treatment free colonies... and I'm not sure where you got the impression that I do. 

Really confused about the pipe dream thing... I suppose it's possible that at one point I called it that. But I'm sure it was in reference to someone living a pipe dream... not someone like the OP or Squarepeg or the host of people on here who appear to have a handle on being TF. I've been a yo-yo on here plenty... so maybe you have some particular post in mind. I guess most of what could be considered my "pipe dream" mentality is people who I see going down the same path that I did... skipping down the lane assuming all is well and that I can just run foundationless frames and my bees will be fine. I hope to have headed off what would surely have been an extremely heavy TF loss this winter by treating my colonies. Will grow from my best queens next spring and bring in some stock suggested by a few folks that I trust (OP being one) and will go from there.

Of course 15 deadouts are hard to requeen in May with proven genetics.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Beeathlon said:


> My biggest concern about "TF" is that it for some is almost like a religion/ideology. Jwcarlsons add here is a scary example of what kind of crowd that is pulled into "beehaving".


Then I would suggest to everyone that they respect the "religion" of each other. If we want to have meaningful dialog with people from other "religions", we have to show respect in our dialog and be civil in our disagreements or viewpoints that differ.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

biggraham610 said:


> It is interesting, there are always a lot more derogatory things spoken about people that choose not to treat, than those who choose to treat. G


If there were a group of TF beekeepers like yourself and squarepeg and some others who are on here I would be dragging myself to those club meetings. The trouble is that I have not yet met a TF beekeeper like that in person. I have met other treating beekeepers who are of like mind to me. Wanting to raise and improve their own queens, use proven stocks when possible, etc. But the TF folks around here (largely) are as I described above. 

I'm not too concerned unless they live very near me. I'd like to have a reasonable idea that what I am doing is either working or not working. And if I have a guy 1/2 mile away who is raising a few mite distribution centers it may cloud my results. Or even indicate that I should be treating when I don't need to.



Barry said:


> Then I would suggest to everyone that they respect the "religion" of each other. If we want to have meaningful dialog with people from other "religions", we have to show respect in our dialog and be civil in our disagreements or viewpoints that differ.


Can we all agree to also not act like someone making a suggestion or giving an opinion is the same as putting a gun to someone's head and telling them to treat their colonies?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

bean tree homestead said:


> I am guessing not a lot of talk about DCA or SHB or types of methods for queen raising..


DCA = drone equivalent of standing around the pool hall swapping lies about our manhood and waiting for a virgin to walk by.

SHB = the enemy, to be harrassed and driven out of the neighborhood.

It was a great treat to watch a recent PBS special on E. O. Wilson, an expert on ants, in which he spoke of the similarities between eusocial insects (those that make huge organized colonies, ants being his specialty) and humans. He sees, in some ways, ants and humans as having more in common than humans and chimps, because humans go far beyond ordinary group social behavior seen in apes and other mammals, and are eusocial. But watching it, I kept thinking he should have become a honeybee expert.

How useful that is to a beekeeper may be questioned. But it ought to fascinate any human being (beeing?).


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> First rule my mentor gave me: don`t weaken the bees with treatment.


Who is this mentor?

What I have heard there are not many TF beekeepers in Germany (law says you must treat) and I know most of them personally.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Who is this mentor?
> 
> [snip]
> 
> (law says you must treat)


I doubt you'll get far wording it that way.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Why are we so sensitive?

Because we can`t control all results of our bee managing. Nobody can, TF or not TF.
The bees decide what will happen or nature decides if you want.

>.... is raising a few mite distribution centers ...<

that`s the first prejudice I hear when telling someone i started TF beekeeping.

Last year my treated LC Hive died, you know why?
A migrating beekeeper came by, installed nuc splits and did not have the time to check, so nearly all of them died and my bees went robbing (mites and honey) and suddenly had many more bees.
He is not TF.
He thank God is not allowed near me anymore.
Well, ok, I must admit, my bees had chalk brood too, but to treat and fail in spite of it is harder than not to treat and fail.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks for the kind words jw. good thread here.

i get the point you are making, but i think that to make a statement like this:



jwcarlson said:


> There are absolutely people here (Like the OP and others) and everywhere "doing it right". But that is NOT the average TF beekeeper nationwide, trust me.


one would have to have personal knowledge of enough tf beekeepers nationwide to render such a statement as fact, as opposed to having personal knowledge of those folks in your area and the ones here on the forum. semantics i know, just saying.

i don't think any of us are in a position to really know what is 'average' or typical but the forum at least gives us a chance to compare notes and for that i am grateful. i'm getting the impression that with bees there so many variables at play the notion of 'typical' tends to lose any real meaning.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

jwcarlson said:


> Can we all agree to also not act like someone making a suggestion or giving an opinion is the same as putting a gun to someone's head and telling them to treat their colonies?


Yes I can. But too often opinions come across as if there is a gun in [your] hand. I deleted a post on the first page because of this uncivil tone. Making snarky remarks about a group of people gets us nowhere. I have created sub forums as a way for those with similar interests to discuss topics away from those who don't have an interest in it. Instead, it tends to draw in those with very different objectives and creates tension and discord. Granted, this thread is in the general bee forum, but it's turned into yet another "warning fest" about a certain group of beekeepers.

Graham started this thread as a way to say he's having success managing his bees as he does. Can't we just say "good for you!"?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Who is this mentor?
> 
> What I have heard there are not many TF beekeepers in Germany (law says you must treat) and I know most of them personally.



He is not known.
We are a group of TF beekeeping hobbyists. 
Law says we must treat if we have a varroa infestation. So we try to have none.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> He is not known.


How many years he has been treatment free?
Does he know Josef Koller?


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

> We smack you up side the head for being silly and doing it backwards. You go TF successfully for 10+ years and you're supposed to be raising queens and selling them to all the TF wannabees.


Well its been 15yrs TF. I introduced stock from a VT queen raiser in 2010 if I remember correctly. The bees were absorbed into the apiary and really no issue occured no crashing of any kind. Which puts me on board with MB's thinking that cell size plays a significant role.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Clayton Huestis said:


> Well its been 15yrs TF. I introduced stock from a VT queen raiser in 2010 if I remember correctly. The bees were absorbed into the apiary and really no issue occured no crashing of any kind. Which puts me on board with MB's thinking that cell size plays a significant role.


Congratulations, continued success. G


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >Not really, they look great.
> 
> You so disappointed a lot of "I told you so"s



I would hope *most* would be cheering TF success! I'm not TF right now (OAV) but once I'm established and "know what to do" I'd like to be.


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## B Steve B (Jun 4, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> I'm not too concerned unless they live very near me. I'd like to have a reasonable idea that what I am doing is either working or not working. And if I have a guy 1/2 mile away who is raising a few mite distribution centers it may cloud my results. Or even indicate that I should be treating when I don't need to.


This point is something that's been bugging me as I think about my management plan, and possibly adjusting it. How does one even know what effect another beekeeper has on one's colonies, given the possible presence of feral bees in the area? Just down the road from me is a bee tree that has been occupied for at least the last three years. Not only do I not know what other loose colonies might exist, but I don't even know whether this one is surviving through the winter or just getting replaced every spring. All I (think I) know is that it's booming this year up until now. Eliminating that as a variable would seem to be a daunting task. What am I missing?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

B Steve B said:


> This point is something that's been bugging me as I think about my management plan, and possibly adjusting it. How does one even know what effect another beekeeper has on one's colonies, given the possible presence of feral bees in the area? Just down the road from me is a bee tree that has been occupied for at least the last three years. Not only do I not know what other loose colonies might exist, but I don't even know whether this one is surviving through the winter or just getting replaced every spring. All I (think I) know is that it's booming this year up until now. Eliminating that as a variable would seem to be a daunting task. What am I missing?


You're not missing anything, it's not possible to eliminate it. Don't get me wrong, it's not something to loose sleep over. I just think it should be good practice as part of the greater beekeeping community to prevent your colonies from negatively affecting someone else's. That's not to say it's possible to stop all of possible negative behaviors. But if you have an AFB colony what do you do? Burn it. If you have a weak/sick colony what do you do? Prevent robbing as best you can.

It's just my belief. A colony or two probably isn't a big deal. But could you imagine having some colonies near someone who's letting 10 colonies collapse every fall from who-knows-what? I don't think you can really argue that it wouldn't have an effect on other colonies nearby. Of course the goal is not to let it get to that point or that scale.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Well, looking at the mite fall on my colonies all I can say with any confidence is that I"M THE ONE SPREADING THE MITES IF ANYONE IS!.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Juhani Lunden said:


> How many years he has been treatment free?
> Does he know Josef Koller?


We know of J.Koller, one of us has bought some queens from him, others startet with Elgons (Österlund).
The others regressed their own carnicas (Peschetz, Troiseck).
The longest time some are TF themselves are 3 years, which is short, but my mentor`s bees are treatment free for 6 years now, which is short also.
We all use small cells.
Among us we have 100 hives and will try to breed or select our own queens.

So we are all "new", but the others are experienced beekeepers, I`m the only novice.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

jwcarlson said:


> For the majority of TF folks out in the big wide world (the ones who buy a package of bees and don't treat (because they don't even know that varroa/nosema/AFB/EFB/etc exist)... that is very much the case....


Most beekeepers who consider themselves "treatment-free" that I have come across are very in tune with diseases and mites and are looking for alternatives to treating.

Perhaps you are confusing "treatment-free" with "non-intervention." 

Wayne


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

waynesgarden said:


> Most beekeepers who consider themselves "treatment-free" that I have come across are very in tune with diseases and mites and are looking for alternatives to treating.
> 
> Perhaps you are confusing "treatment-free" with "non-intervention."
> 
> Wayne


Agreed.

The problem is they don't see themselves as any different than the ones who know what they're doing, I guess. I'm sure a lot of it is locality and who you know in a given area. There are a couple pretty big commercial operations in this part of the state. Would be nice to talk with them and see what they do a little bit.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

waynesgarden said:


> Most beekeepers who consider themselves "treatment-free" that I have come across are very in tune with diseases and mites
> 
> Wayne


Not sure what 'In Tune" means. Are they looking closely and often enough they Can they identify AFB at one or two cells, before it becomes a danger to the host hive and other hives around them? Have they ever even seen a cell of AFB? Do they know how to take a test sample and either conduct a accurate field test or would they know how to package a sample for testing while they isolate that particular hive to avoid infecting other hives in the area. Are they able to identify AFB scale on used equipment or in a hive that dies? Perhaps they have read the 200 or so page study put out by New Zealand regarding the "Control of American Foulbrood without the use of drugs" . What about mites, have they taken the time to educate themselves about IPM, read the tons of studies done on the impact Or lack there of in some cases, hive configurations, small cell, configurations of bottom boards,internal hive temperatures related to hive colors have on Varroa Destructor? Are they able to identify New Jersey mud or European Foul brood accurately, how about that dead bee larvae that looks like a chinese slipper, what disease is that? Can they dissect a bee for a simple microscopic examination of breathing tubes to identify a trachael mite infestation. What about the symptoms of Deformed wing virus and Nosema, queenlessness or Gallerisisis. Can these people in tune tell the single clear physical delineation to separate wax moth larvae from hive beetle larvae. If so I would consider that in tune and applaud those efforts. Unfortunately the vast majority of the treatment free beekeepers I know, and I talk with a lot of beekeepers in the two states we operate in, who are treatment free are going on a lick and a promise and have not taken the time to educate themselves to a point their hives are not a disease and pest harbor that may affect beekeepers around them. In tune is not an idealistic place, it is an educated place. I applaud those who really take the time to make an educated effort at becoming treatment free, we all have something to gain from those efforts. By no means do I think that is a majority of TF beekeepers are on that path. One other point, Treatment free hives collapsing would be a positive outcome, part of the success will be many, many bees dying and breeding from the stock that survives.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

We were trained to recognize a cell with AFB in bee school. God bless that I've never seen it in real life. The equipment is a nose, at least one eyeball, and a toothpick.

If you see it, the normal wisdom is to pull that hive and burn it. There's some thought out there that you can salvage the adult bees, and just destroy the honey, brood, and comb, but it has been pointed out that you just saved AFB-susceptible bees. The spores are hard to kill and contagious as all getout.

Other diseases, IPM, yeah. You could get this by an apprenticeship with a good beekeeper. You could follow the study guides for Journeyman beekeeper in your state. You could get a pile of good books and read them (and then reconcile that if you read two books you'll get at least three opinions on how to deal with each problem). But if you have the opportunity to pay a few bucks for a couple of months of bee school, from a team of people who have actually done this on a scale that matters, and who are passionate about getting responsible beeKEEPERS and not beeHAVERS around them, sheesh, money well spent. A good start, anyway, on what must be a continuous learning process.

Going on line and buying a package, a beginner's kit, and then browsing the table of contents of Beekeeping for Dummies is not sufficient. But learning this stuff is not so hard as medical school, either. It can and should be done by anyone wanting to keep bees, and it does not take a genius, just someone who cares and has half a brain. If you had a whole brain you probably would not keep stinging insects as pets.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Joel - I think it's safe to say that a large percentage of beekeepers regardless of their treatment/non treatment ways would have a hard time living up to your list of concerns and expectations.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Barry said:


> Joel - I think it's safe to say that a large percentage of beekeepers regardless of their treatment/non treatment ways would have a hard time living up to your list of concerns and expectations.


X2............... wow......................:scratch: G


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

So basically if you're TF you have to bee lab? Geeze...


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

That's an awesome expectation huh. Guess we know where he and the place he sends his bees stand......... G


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

By "in tune" I mean aware of and able to recognize a problem or at least recognize that some problem exists and address it in some fashion. This is a far cry from being ignorant of them. I was responding to JWCs assertion that most TF beekeepers are ignorant, ("they don't even know that varroa/nosema/AFB/EFB/etc exist)" 

Joel, I have never seen AFB in a hive. I don't consider myself ignorant, maybe just lucky. I've never dissected a bee to look for trachael mite infestation. I haven't read the 200 page paper about Nosema. I have no idea what "New Jersey mud" is other than what my truck got stuck in some years back. And as for "Gallerisisis," when I googled it, I was given a choice of sites that all described some really hard-core porn. I didn't follow any links to see exactly what you believe beekeepers should be in tune with. Even given the extents of my ignorance, I don't believe my hives are disease and pest harbors. 

Even though I have not achieved TF status, and don't know that I will in my remaining years, I do know that that varroa/nosema/AFB/EFB/etc exist and know that when I have to, I have or can find the information I need to act as I see fit. Barry is correct. The expectations of knowledge that Joel lists could possibly be the mininum one would expect from a commercial beekeeper such as himself but highly unlikely for a hobbyist to amass. 

I think JWC is just confusing ignorant beekeepers with those that consider themselves treatment free beekeepers. Or just lumping them all together in an attempt to disparage. (Later, in referring to treatment free beekeepers: "The problem is they don't see themselves as any different than the ones who know what they're doing.") Earlier, Barry mentioned those that treat when and how they have been instructed without an inkling of why. I don't know why JWC is not as judgmental about this group of ignorant beekeepers as he is about TF. Ignorance is ignorance, isn't it? 

Given his propensity to judge and disparage after his year or so keeping bees, I assume JWC can explain to us the fine points of "New Jersey mud" and tell us what, exactly, is so kinky about "Gallerisisis" and how it affects bees and how he treats for it. 

Wayne


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

15 years ago a beekeeper in our county bought some used equipment, called me and asked me to come take a look at it. The combs were covered in AFB scale. I explained in detail the outcome of using them and advised him he should burn them. He didn't. The next summer he decided to go big, he called me to his yard that August because his bees were sick. When I arrived we went through about 80 hives and nucs, all rotten with AFB. Many of the hives had already died and were robbed out by other local wild bees and beekeeper hives in the area making bastions of AFB that will exist for the next 75 years to infect new bee hives and continue to spread. I advised him to contact the state inspector and to prepare to burn the hives, explained the consequences and left. I assumed he would do the responsible thing. Over the next two years our bee inspector burned several hundred hives of bees in ours and adjoining counties. Our local bee club was burned out of existence, there were tens of thousands of dollars in lost hives and agriculture and bad feelings that are still talked about today. He wasn't the source of the original problem but his irresponsibility sure impacted and will continue to impact beekeeping our area. Beekeeping is a responsibility with huge consequences resulting from well intended mistakes and busy schedules. As I keep bees in order to live inside and eat, any irresponsible beekeeper may be a threat to my livelihood. Every professional beekeeper I know would call my list the short list, visit Mike Bush's web site and you will see his lists dwarf mine. It is a time consuming and long but necessary process to learn and be a responsible beekeeper, a process that takes time and discipline. You don't need to be the lab, but at least learn what something as virulent and destructive as AFB looks like, how to field test samples or preserve sample and get it accurately tested (extremely easy and free) and be vigilant. It is not crime to be treatment free (or treated) and get AFB, the crime is allowing it to get beyond the borders of your bee yard.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

You should have just said that in the beginning and saved yourself a lot of typing. 
No question we would all agree that knowing the signs, where the Beltsville lab is, and responsible actions when AFB was diagnosed are in order. 
You come off like you think anyone not throwing any chemicals in their hives are flower children on acid. Get a grip man. Maybe you should have seen to it that the guy you *"helped"* burnt the hives before you left.
Maybe then, you would have been acting responsibly.
Perhaps his used equipment hives wouldn't have cast AFB Swarms and you and your neighbors would never have seen the problem.

You know what they say, sometimes the best lessons learned are the hard ones. Bet you keep a torch and lighter fluid in the truck now. G


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

biggraham610 said:


> You come off like you think anyone not throwing any chemicals in their hives are flower children G


"Throwing chemicals in their hives". Do you feel that is a fair characterization of varroa treatments?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Joel said:


> 15 years ago a beekeeper in our county bought some used equipment, called me and asked me to come take a look at it. The combs were covered in AFB scale. I explained in detail the outcome of using them and advised him he should burn them. He didn't. The next summer he decided to go big, he called me to his yard that August because his bees were sick. When I arrived we went through about 80 hives and nucs, all rotten with AFB. Many of the hives had already died and were robbed out by other local wild bees and beekeeper hives in the area.


Yes, seen exactly the same thing here, but not on quite such a grand scale. In fact I have seen smaller versions of this several times and now believe there is, and always will be, a certain percentage of people who are just different. See reality differently, and act differently. That is why despite an excellent AFB eradication program here that has the support of the huge majority of beekeepers, we still have AFB. Just one person can cause so much destruction.

There was one guy whose hives I had to inspect a few times who was deliberately breeding AFB. At his peak he had around 30 hives spread over several locations and believed with that number, he could breed an AFB resistant bee, he deliberately would infect some of the hives. People all around him kept getting AFB and because of our privacy policies I was not able to say what I felt I needed to tell them. These were hobbyists with one or two lovingly built hives, then they find out they have to burn everything.

The perpetrator was never dealt with by the law, he eventually AFB'd himself out of business. But the damage to others was way beyond his own losses.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

No I don't, I don't judge anyone Jim. I feel that people that use mite treatments according to the dosages and by their sound judgement of necessity are fine stewards. That is a choice, and I fully understand why commercial beekeepers in a way, have no choice. What I don't like, is when you get the opposite answer from the opposite question. G


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I guess now that the conversation has devolved into AFB, I should make it clear, the vain of this thread was Varroa, I would never, and would not expect anyone to ever knowingly keep AFB hives alive. G


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Yeah this has really gone off the rails.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

biggraham610 said:


> I guess now that the conversation has devolved into AFB, I should make it clear, the vain of this thread was Varroa,


Oops, my apologies. I thought it was about TF beekeeping, guess I just went by the thread title. I will confine future comments to varroa.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

To the OP- Congratulations. Please document your procedures so that others may replicate your results. 

As for Joel's Epistle, yes, all of those skills are very valuable, but after a century and a half, there are "set in stone" rules to deal with most of those issues. If they did not work, we would have failed many years ago. 

Roland Diehnelt
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Joel said:


> 15 years ago a beekeeper in our county bought some used equipment, called me and asked me to come take a look at it........


This story is terrible.
If I saw this in my hives I would not hesitate to call the bee inspector. He decides burning or saving the bees, burn the brood. 
There is a prohibited zone of AFB near me, I hope my bees are resistant enough to deal with this. 

I do not know of any TF beekeepers who are irresponsible. TF or mite tolerant colonies or queens are expensive, so there is no interest in decline.

But I know of organic or hobby beekeepers who never check their hives except to treat with acids or to harvest some honey.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Roland said:


> To the OP- Congratulations. Please document your procedures so that others may replicate your results.
> 
> 
> Roland Diehnelt
> Linden Apiary, est. 1852


I do have a diary, and it will be more detailed next year Roland. I can only attribute my brief success to this date to genetics, work ethic, and quite frankly, one hell of a lot of feedback on this site. Thank you all. G


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Until now there is no treatment for AFB which is highly contagious.
And it is not as simple as burning of a few brood frames. My advice would be
for you to do more research in this area to further educate yourself. The varroa foul broods is easier
to treat.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

beepro said:


> The varroa foul broods is easier
> to treat.


"varroa foul brood"

Is there any reason to complicate things further by making up terms?

Wayne


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Oops, my apologies. I thought it was about TF beekeeping, guess I just went by the thread title. I will confine future comments to varroa.


+1 I thought it was TF also.......


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

biggraham610 said:


> You should have just said that in the beginning and saved yourself a lot of typing.
> No question we would all agree that knowing the signs, where the Beltsville lab is, and responsible actions when AFB was diagnosed are in order.
> You come off like you think anyone not throwing any chemicals in their hives are flower children on acid. Get a grip man. Maybe you should have seen to it that the guy you *"helped"* burnt the hives before you left.
> Maybe then, you would have been acting responsibly G


I did not mean to impune responsible TF beekeeping. Having said that, If you think any of the pests and diseases I named are less of a monster than AFB you are misinformed. The old easy problems are becoming the new virulent issues. About 100 years ago AFB was the big monster wiping out 90% of the hives in the US, 30 years ago Varroa Destructor became the big monster killing and impacting millions and millions of hives in the US, 20 years ago Post Mite Sydrome was the big monster, 10 years ago CCD became the big monster and in the past couple of years, EFB, a minor issue previously, has become more virulent and is now almost a guarantee if you pollinate blueberries. Read Wayne's post, he got it. My post wasn't meant to be about a monster, it is meant to be about every new monster coming down the pike and that we need to be working together to be educated and best prepared. 

In regards to your meant to impune winky comments about helping burn hives, you know not of what you speak. If you had ever burned a two or three story hive you would know that burning 80 supered hives is nothing for a couple of beekeepers to attempt. Burning that much wax and wooden ware is akin to lighting about 200 gallons of gasoline on fire. It has to be done in a confined area so everything can be contained, burned and then buried three feet to meet state apiary law requirements. Burning wax melts,ignites and infected honey pours out like lava and spreads, looks just like a gasoline fire. Can't be controlled with water as water spreads a wax fire just like a gasoline fire. Burying burned equipment and honey at least three feet deep in this case would require a backhoe and has to be done with a state apiary inspector present to insure all infections materials, honey/equipment and comb/ are burned and or completely buried. Do you drive around with a trailer and a backhoe G? Lets assume 80 hives with a measly average of 30 lbs of honey per hive pouring out of burning equipment. That's 4 55 gallon drums. Have you ever seen or tried to contain a huge honey spill? One other fact, the bees are killed in advance by the use of a pint of gasoline or turpentine poured into the hive. Let us all know how you would use your lighter and torch responsibly? Not a back yard bonfire my friend, a monumental task, one maybe you could have thought through before posting winky faces and trying to cast blame instead of researching facts.

As to my post being a treatment free attack - nothing in my post or my history supports the statment in your post. Had you taken a few moments to review some of my past posts on TF you would know I practiced it after we got wiped out by varroa in 1997 and had some real results in stock improvement over a 10 yr period. My opinion is too many Beekeepers jump into TF more as a mantra than a responsible practice. Worldwide our industry is facing real issues. have you seen the recent news from South Africa. We are all part of the problem or part of the solution. Clearly you have done some homework, your points about Beltsville and testing indicate that, maybe spend a little more time sharing that kind of information, and a little less time trying to cast blame and cute winky faces?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Joel said:


> , EFB, a minor issue previously, has become more virulent and is now almost a guarantee if you pollinate blueberries.


 tell me more about this, Our state inspector came and talked to our bee club about EFB apparently she had read some reports that it's in her words " Morphing into something closer to AFB" and it's quickly becoming no longer something bees can just "get over". I do you have any info on this, I have looked and can't find anything. I am one of those TF beeks that try to be diligent on watching for brood disease.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

EFB has no chemotherapeutic agent for treatment and unlike AFB has not been virulent and epidemic and frankly once accurately identified as not AFB a minor concern for beekeepers. With good weather, a honey flow and healthy bees, it always cleared up on it's own. Over the past several years beekeepers have seen an increase in EFB and especially in bees coming out of Blueberry pollination. This new EFB appears at this stage to be more chronic than acute as in past infections. It also is taking on more of the ropy appearance similar to AFB. Of course it is being clouded by new issues such as New Jersey mud which look like a cross between AFB and EFB and maybe throw in some sac brood, but at this stage is believed to be neither. In considering a move into blueberry pollination I was talking with my state inspector during my inspections last fall and he indicated it is reaching the point in his experiance if you pollinate blueberries this new EFB is almost a certain. I don't believe it is epidemic at this point but the potential seems to be there. I have not seen anything that tells me what the trigger is in relation to blueberries, just anecdotal connection from reports. Probably someone here knows more about it than me.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Joel said:


> if you pollinate blueberries this new EFB is almost a certain. .



That is weird.....I wonder what the correlation is??


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

beepro said:


> Until now there is no treatment for AFB which is highly contagious.
> And it is not as simple as burning of a few brood frames. My advice would be
> for you to do more research in this area to further educate yourself. The varroa foul broods is easier
> to treat.


Seems like the bee inspector and his helpers come with a truck, having a basin with sodium hydroxide on bord which can be heated.
The honey is extracted and can be eaten (by humans, not bees!).
The frames with wax and the boxes are cooked in the sodium.

The bees are saved if possible by shaking them on new combs or foundations, if not possible they are killed by sulphur.

Clothes must be washed afterwards or thrown away. Shoes must be sterilized.

They say that in every hive there are spores. Breakout will be with weakened bees (hungry, damaged by treating, having other diseases, too cold...)


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

If we come across hives with AFB, owned by anyone, would the responsible thing be to contact the State inspector ourselves?

Alex


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

AHudd said:


> If we come across hives with AFB, owned by anyone, would the responsible thing be to contact the State inspector ourselves?
> 
> Alex


In germany you are obliged to have your name and address posted at your apiary.
So I would try to contact the beekeeper first.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Question for all of you TF beeks, are you moving your hives into some sort of cooling area to shut the queen down for 30 days or so to give them a brood break during the summer?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> In germany you are obliged to have your name and address posted at your apiary.
> So I would try to contact the beekeeper first.


Do you regularly rifle through another beekeeper's colonies without him being right there...? 



thehackleguy said:


> Question for all of you TF beeks, are you moving your hives into some sort of cooling area to shut the queen down for 30 days or so to give them a brood break during the summer?


Quoted for posterity, can't wait for a certain non-interventionalist beekeeper to comment.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

JWCarlson, one scenario would be the situation Joel found himself in. 

Alex


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

A rather exotic means of sterilizing bee equipment existed in Virginia for a while. The state maintained a radiation facility for the purpose. But it was expensive to maintain, underutilized, and uneconomical. Not many people see any benefit in trying to save the adult bees, who have already proven themselves to have no resistance to AFB. They could still manage to track spores into new equipment with them. Most beekeepers I know accept that a good bonfire is absolutely effective at killing spores in woodenware, and fear AFB enough to not want to take any chances with it. 

And we were taught never to give honey to our bees from an unknown source. Since it is harmless to humans, honey harvested from AFB hives may show up on the market, and will infect your hives in an instant.

AFB is currently rare in Virginia, according to our inspectors. It does remain the reason they have jobs, though. The TF approach to it would be the same as anyone's: destroy an infected hive. But TF would insist that the hive be taken out of the gene pool as obviously not resistant to it.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thehackleguy said:


> Question for all of you TF beeks, are you moving your hives into some sort of cooling area to shut the queen down for 30 days or so to give them a brood break during the summer?


not here thg, but the summer dearth usually causes that to happen on it's own. this year may have been the exception because of more rain and a less severe dearth.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> Do you regularly rifle through another beekeeper's colonies without him being right there...?
> 
> Nice idea!
> 
> ...


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

thehackleguy said:


> Question for all of you TF beeks, are you moving your hives into some sort of cooling area to shut the queen down for 30 days or so to give them a brood break during the summer?


Mentor`s second rule: after searching for an isolated location, migrating is a no no.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> migrating is a no no.


No, I'm talking more like a giant refrigerator


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> Not at his home.
> But in our crowed conditions in Germany you can`t even take a walk with your dogs without coming along a bee yard.
> But relax, jw, I won`t come near. Don`t want to get nailed.


Well then, what would the outward signs of AFB be at a colony?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Eventually, a distinct odor.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Barry said:


> Eventually, a distinct odor.


I understand that. I guess that's what SiWolKe was getting at.

More along the lines of Joel's case and AHudd's question. Joel was going through the colonies WITH the beekeeper and saw signs. Warned against their use. Then again found colonies with (full blown) AFB at some time later.

The question, I think, is when do you "report" someone like that instead of trusting them to deal with it themselves. I think that's a good question. Personally, if I thought I found evidence of AFB I'd screen them up and be calling someone who knows more than me right off the bat. I would expect most beekeepers to do the same. That sounds like what Joel expected too. And it become an issue in that case. I suppose I would call the state apiarist. I wouldn't be confident enough in my own diagnosis (at this point) to pour the gas and light the match. Unless it was already very far along. 

I watch for scale and probe cells with cappings that I think look "off". In general just try to be as educated as I can be. I would not do well knowing that I was responsible to offing a bunch of other people's bees and possibly leaving a footprint like that for decades. Truthfully that is, in part, why I treat for mites at this point. I don't fell confident enough in my own "skill" to really know what's good and bad. I didn't notice major effects of mites last season when they were smacking me in the face:



That colony survived winter and when the mites are under control and with the same queen and almost exactly one year later:


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Joel said:


> I did not mean to impune responsible TF beekeeping.


Joel, you came off hot under the collar, talking down. That happens a lot around here. That's the way, I took it anyhow. I hate to see anyone lose anything due to neglect or disease. I also believe anyone keeping bees, with or without treatments should have a grasp on things going on in the hive. Pests and diseases alike. That being said, there are plenty that are dumping packages every year and don't have a clue. I cant do anything about them. I cant keep them from buying packages. I can only take responsibility for my actions, and share what little I have learned in my short tenure with any that seek advice with the qualification that "I am by no means an expert, so take it with a grain of salt". G


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

biggraham610 said:


> Joel, you came off hot under the collar, talking down. That happens a lot around here. That's the way, I took it anyhow. I can only take responsibility for my actions, and share what little I have learned in my short tenure with any that seek advice with the qualification that "I am by no means an expert, so take it with a grain of salt". G


The heat is from passion for what I do, not arrogance. Possibly one might find one or two of your posts came across as talking down? I read a lot of your post I see you are pretty upbeat, perhaps a bit of a prankster. We need that too. I make a living keeping bees, several families depend on our farm and my 24 year old son who I get the privilege of working with every day heads one of those families. I cherish that responsibility and take it very seriously. For me and many others like us what is going on in our industry with both commercial and hobby beekeeping is not a joke on a post but drop dead serious issues. Even those of us standing strong have seen friends struggle and watched some crash and burned hard. People we like, people we care about. When you read my posts that's where I speak from. Experts? 20 years ago you couldn't swing a lit smoker without hitting a "master beekeeper". The challenges of the last decade have made us all students, all the experts I know are shaking there heads. We come here, we share, we all leave better beekeepers, and sometimes we make new friends!


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

If you see something like this, your hive is doomed.
Dead and dying bees in cells.
Took this pic of my treated colony last year.
Had 2 month experience.
Before considering TF and coming in contact with my mentor.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Joel said:


> , depend on our farm



www.natureswayfarm.com
This link to your homepages does not work?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

http://shop.natureswayfarm.com/default.asp

I think the main page is corrupted. Try a net search on nature's way farm


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Our main site got hacked a couple of months ago. Our web host has not been able to find the breech and we have been up and down for last month. We are in the process of changing to a new web host after 15+ years but man it is a painful process. Thanks for the update, I'll post when we get it all sorted out.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Joel's Facebook page seems to work OK ...
https://www.facebook.com/Natures-Way-Farm-310162369019740/timeline/


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Joel said:


> For me and many others like us what is going on in our industry with both commercial and hobby beekeeping is not a joke on a post but drop dead serious issues. Even those of us standing strong have seen friends struggle and watched some crash and burned hard. People we like, people we care about. When you read my posts that's where I speak from. Experts? 20 years ago you couldn't swing a lit smoker without hitting a "master beekeeper". The challenges of the last decade have made us all students, all the experts I know are shaking there heads. We come here, we share, we all leave better beekeepers, and sometimes we make new friends!


You need a new approach. You just gotta believe!
see this thread for help in getting started on the road to success in every endeavor you undertake. 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?318268-Belief-in-Beekeeping


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I would agree that ignorance on the part of tf beekeeping may be somewhat high, mostly because they are beginners, and they don't have much local support, and really they don't get the concept. But a beginning treating beekeeper can be just as ignorant but they have more support. 

But its still important to support your beginning tf beek. Resistant genetics are a public good that benefit everyone. Experienced beekeepers should know the basics of tf concepts and get a rank beginner tf going in the right direction. If they are getting packages, help them bring in some queens with some pedigree of resistance. Help them create backup nucs. When its time to examine for mites, maybe offer to go through them and show how to install robber screens on struggling hives.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

lharder said:


> I would agree that ignorance on the part of tf beekeeping may be somewhat high,
> But its still important to support your beginning tf beek. Resistant genetics are a public good that benefit everyone. Experienced beekeepers should know the basics of tf concepts and get a rank beginner tf going in the right direction. If they are getting packages, help them bring in some queens with some pedigree of resistance. .


I think one of the most important points today. Hobbyist are growing so fast in numbers and there is not enough knowledable support and very few comprehensive courses with qualified teachers. Many more of the experiances beekeepers are needed to mentor and teach and less wannabe mentors with a couple years of years putting out so much Mis-information.
And Graham, being 56, growing up in the 60's and 70's almost all my friends were flower children and I'm pretty sure some were on acid!


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I just know when I started, I couldn't stay out of my hives. Any thing that looked amiss in the least sent me frantically searching for answers. I also introduced VSH lines my first year, I am sure they are out there, I guess I just assume everyone does their homework, and performs due diligence. I cant imagine anyone buying 50 head of cattle and not thinking they would need to be managed to have success, I don't see bees any different. I guess some do, but, I wouldn't expect them to be around long. G


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

biggraham610 said:


> I cant imagine anyone buying 50 head of cattle and not thinking they would need to be managed to have success, I don't see bees any different.


The difference is about $74,000 (conservatively) . If you can get into bee keeping for about $200.00 a lot of people don't take it as seriously as spending almost 100K.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

thehackleguy said:


> The difference is about $74,000 (conservatively) . If you can get into bee keeping for about $200.00 a lot of people don't take it as seriously as spending almost 100K.


Yeah, and those are the people that wont be around very long. My point being, due diligence should be taken in any endeavor pursued. That's how I was raised anyhow. G


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

thehackleguy said:


> The difference is about $74,000 (conservatively) . If you can get into bee keeping for about $200.00 a lot of people don't take it as seriously as spending almost 100K.


A valid comparison would be 50 hives vs 50 cows.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I think it would be more than 50 hives, but, my point was lost. Due diligence in any endeavor. Here's another question....

So the ignorant TF newbee that gets bees dumps them and does nothing more. Well, of course he will usually lose his bees in early winter or early spring. He may try again, and fail again, if he does not do his homework. After a couple of those cycles I would imagine that he gives up. 
Obviously I don't condone that guy but...............
He is treated as he is a scourge to responsible beekeepers everywhere. He is allowing his UN-managed bees to "_spread pests and disease throughout the community_"
Is he really any different in the grand scheme of things than any of the thousands and thousands of swarms that are cast to the trees every year by treating and non treating beeks alike?
Just a thought.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

biggraham610 said:


> I think it would be more than 50 hives, but, my point was lost. Due diligence in any endeavor. Here's another question....
> 
> So the ignorant TF newbee that gets bees dumps them and does nothing more. Well, of course he will usually lose his bees in early winter or early spring. He may try again, and fail again, if he does not do his homework. After a couple of those cycles I would imagine that he gives up.
> Obviously I don't condone that guy but...............
> ...


That's funny I thought it was the beeks that weakened their genetics by treating and then spreading them all around along with their super bugs who were the scourge Feral bees must drive some crazy because they aren't controlled. Yet ferals are the source of useful genetics all the time in all sorts of fields. My uncle an oat geneticist back in the day spent a fair amount of time wandering around looking for wild oats to use in breeding programs. I have a feeling that ferals have their priorities straight, survival and reproduction and aren't distracted by peripheral issues. By not assuming that one knows best how to proceed in these core areas, and concentrating on aspects that affect our end of the arrangement (honey production), one will end up further ahead and spend less time on misguided management initiatives that interfere rather than improve in the long run.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Graham wrote:

He(TF) is treated as he is a scourge to responsible beekeepers everywhere. He is allowing his UN-managed bees to "spread pests and disease throughout the community"
Is he really any different in the grand scheme of things than any of the thousands and thousands of swarms that are cast to the trees every year by treating and non treating beeks alike?

Yes and no. 

Yes, It is more likely that a swarm from an UN-inspected hive has disease and pests than one that is inspected a managed properly.

No, they both are not practicing due diligence in tending to their livestock. If you do not want to take care of your livestock, please let some one that does purchase the bees instead.

Crazy Roland
Only using product we ourselves would consume.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Roland, 

So, for the yes, I can agree that the bees will be more likely to carry disease and pests, but to the same token, no-one is managing the bees in the trees. 

For the no, well, I know I have a lot to learn, but I doubt seriously that anyone can say with a straight face that they don't lose swarms. I manage intensively the best I know how,and still lose bees to the trees. I have done lots of different things to thwart swarms, and still lost em. Bees were swarming in Sept. this year, I didn't lose any of those however. G


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Yesterday I met with my mentor, told him of the discussions here.
He said:
Don`t try to defend TF. 
Tell every beekeeper you know around your radius to treat carefully.
Tell them not to neglect their bees. Remind them of the OA treatment in winter.
So you will not have their mites.
:scratch:


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

One of mine was. I will be doing my very first OAV treatment tomorrow, and just treating them all. the Crashing one was a hygienic hive but this queen is 3 or 4 generations out and I daresay her genetics got diluted.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

SiWolKe said:


> Tell them not to neglect their bees. Remind them of the OA treatment in winter.
> So you will not have their mites.
> :scratch:


You did remind him that my TF hive was full of mites, right? Now it's full of dead mites.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Barry, did you just have one TF hive? I know the one you speak of, but do you regularly treat the rest of your hives? G


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Barry said:


> You did remind him that my TF hive was full of mites, right? Now it's full of dead mites.


Sure.
Barry, every TF beekeeper will see something like this sometimes.
We`re not isolated.
He had the same crisis two years ago. As I said, a migrating beekeeper came near. 
He combined at an isolated place. The best hives survived, the others died in winter. 
But I know, a commercial will not have the luxury of this management. To much loss.

Barry, don´t be disappointed. Let`just work together, sharing infos.
I`ve the utmost respect for Lauri Miller, for example.

We TF have no weapon against varroa infestation except management.
If treated hives are infested, just use treatment. I envy you.

But, sorry, it`s not my way.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I doubt it that you hives are free from the neighbor's mites. Your mentor is
only partially correct because all summer long the bees will exchange the mites.
In the winter time the bees will go into cluster mode. And with it
are the mites which continue to feed on the bees. Some queens will
not shut down completely so they will lay small patches of new broods
all winter long. With them so are the mites. I only see 2 options now that
is to get a vsh breeder queen and the mite resistant tf queen. At the same time to use my stationary oav gadget to kill off the mites all year long. Once the hives have expanded to the desired level then stop treatment all together. And ongoing resistant selection to head the next generation of bees. What do you think?


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I think you talk in circles. 
No disrespect intended. 
VSH and resistant stock should be a part of the beginning equation. My TF hives carry mites through the winter. I have no doubt about that. They can keep the load low enough to manage. No VSH / Tolerant Bee is going to take the place of Apivar, or Apigaurd, Or Maqs. None that I have ever heard of will kill all the mites. They will, MANAGE the load. If you want NO MITES, might I suggest one of the treatments previously stated. If you want hives that can stay in front of mite loads, and succeed, may I suggest, VSH and a out breeding to ferrels system. That is what has worked for me so far, and, that is what I intend to do for the foreseeable future. G


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't like to think in a circle.
I like to expand my horizon when it comes to beekeeping.
Too bad my area do not have the ferral population that my
vsh and tf bees can mixed with. What is the alternative when
there isn't a ferral population around my apiary?
Thanks for sharing what works for you so far and into the future.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

SiWolKe said:


> Barry, don´t be disappointed. Let`just work together, sharing infos.
> I`ve the utmost respect for Lauri Miller, for example.
> 
> We TF have no weapon against varroa infestation except management.
> ...


I'm all for working together sharing info. I'm still a bit confused by your comment tho. You have no weapon against varroa except management? What about genetics?

If treated hives are infested? Mine is a TF hive that was infested and I didn't want to treat. I don't think you envy that. It's not my desired way, but it came down to don't treat and lose the hive or treat and save the hive (still may be too far gone to save). Also by treating, I eliminated the mite bomb that would infect neighboring hives. Would you just let the hive die and have it spread its mites to other hives?

Am I missing something or not understanding you correctly?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Barry said:


> What about genetics?


SiWolKe has said Michael Bush is one of *her* sources for information. MB has been saying, frequently, lately that he doesn't think genetics plays much of a role in TF beekeeping (from varroa standpoint).


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

One of *her* sources.

So, genetics and SC are off the table? These are two of the three legs for success according to Dee.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Well Barry, you're just doing the small cell wrong... just like I did. We need to tell the mites they can't hack it in SC. 

Is there a function to show if a poster is male or female? I do dislike making that mistake if I can help it.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

No function. I'll admit it can be quite hard to know with some members. One has to be a sleuth and read between the lines. But in SiWolKe's case, the fifth line is all you need to read!

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?312730-Today-in-the-Apiary&p=1336365#post1336365


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> Is there a function to show if a poster is male or female? I do dislike making that mistake if I can help it.


Click on the poster's name. Select View Profile. Select About Me. Entering this info is not mandatory, but in this case it is filled out.

Female, no kids. Keeps bees and gardens. My kind of gal, except I've got mine already.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Barry, Phoebee...
I don't typically look at profiles unless I'm going to send a PM or even then the little popup makes that easy to do without. I knew it was in the profile (or could be), but never checked. Could we throw little O-+ and O-> under everyone's user name? haha


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Barry said:


> One of *her* sources.
> 
> So, genetics and SC are off the table? These are two of the three legs for success according to Dee.


"Her".

No. 
Genetics will be my education next year. 
Genetics are 1/3, but I don`t want to buy lc queens. I hope, we will be able to breed mite tolerant bees among us.
I believe in small cell beekeeping, but I´m interested in natural comb too.

<Would you just let the hive die and have it spread its mites to other hives?>

Surely not! But I would not have it in my TF bee yard.
I have a place for treating, far away.

What I learned from your story: If I ever catch a foreign swarm, I will put it in an isolation ward.
To regress I will need this, too.
No sc and lc at the same bee yard.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> Well Barry, you're just doing the small cell wrong... just like I did. We need to tell the mites they can't hack it in SC.


At the risk of starting the whole angle of the mites themselves in the treatment-free equation, there is every reason to suspect that at least some, maybe most, of the cases of success in TF have more to do with changes in the mites than in changes in the bees. It is not that the bees cannot be bred to be more hardy, but that the mites have had more generations in which to evolve since this whole issue was imported.

This happens with most diseases. They start out deadly and cause massive plagues, but eventually evolution figures out that killing your host is counterproductive. If the mites can "figure out" that the diseases they carry are killing the host, and that they will have more reproductive success if they adapt to be less lethal, this would allow isolated apiaries to not treat. In less isolated apiaries, or for migratory hives, it would be harder to develop such a mite population.

So part of breeding TF bees will be to use them as breeding stock in other apiaries. The ones that can't survive TF outside their home apiary may have survived TF only on less virulent mites. The ones that thrive in other places likely are truly resistant bees.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Phoebee said:


> So part of breeding TF bees will be to use them as breeding stock in other apiaries. The ones that can't survive TF outside their home apiary may have survived TF only on less virulent mites. The ones that thrive in other places likely are truly resistant bees.


Interesting theory. To have TF bees thriving near treated bees would be the goal. TF bees can only take mites up to a level now. This level must be very high then.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

SiWolKe said:


> No sc and lc at the same bee yard.


I don't have any LC.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

> What about genetics?


I think genetic plays a part to some degree. But I think complex lines that are breed over years are not as realistic. Once the beekeeper is removed ( or those that can't maintain) the lines get diluted and eventually the traits dwindle. I think this is beyond the scope of most beekeepers; and as such really isn't realistic. Seems to me that many are wanting ferals that are successful yet they don't use any such elaborate breeding programs. Survival of the fittest is the only option. Most TF beekeepers see large losses at the beginning (usually). Didn't feral population takes a plunge like this? For some reason a bug on a bug gets soooo much attention. Doesn't it seem odd that a parasite should kill its host on such a grand scale? To me something is out of balance. Hmmm but its out of balance for everyone globally? Yet what is it that makes the few survive? I guess we could talk about this all day. No matter what ones pov on honeybees is I like to think everyone on this site has there welfare at heart.



> Would you just let the hive die and have it spread its mites to other hives?


Well 5 yrs ago I would have agreed. Now I'm not so sure. In most cases the host and most of the parasites die together. So your not seeing 1000's of mites hitch hiking to the next hive( maybe on full yards where every hive is crashing). Ever see a bee flying with a 100 mites on it to the next hive? A bee with a couple ya probably. Most are so weak they probably couldn't get far, more of an issue to there current apiary then any neighbors. What about all those crashing escaped swarms/ % of ferals? How do you manage those mites? So you treat your bees early, a month later the escapes crash and infest your bees again? I guess my point is reinfestation is a reality. It probably will happen. Wether its neighbors or wild bees its gonna happen. You can't hide from it. If your a treater do you check again to see if it happened? If your TF what do you do? I think having a plan for it "WHEN" it happens is a smart route. Since I'm TF I want bees that can handle the influx. If your a treater what is your plan of action? Hiding under a rock just don't work, and pretending it can't happen doesn't either.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

SiWolKe... no "LC" Queens... what does that even mean?

What's a large cell queen? Queens aren't typically raised from the cells drawn from foundation. And when they are they're floated out of it.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> Interesting theory. To have TF bees thriving near treated bees would be the goal. TF bees can only take mites up to a level now. This level must be very high then.


It certainly must be the goal, long term. It can't happen overnight. It is the ultimate test for success.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Clayton Huestis said:


> I think having a plan for it "WHEN" it happens is a smart route. Since I'm TF I want bees that can handle the influx.


So Clayton, we go way back to early discussions of SC. What is your plan when any of your bees can't handle it? And of course the nagging question that keeps coming up for me is, why would I use SC comb if I'm still going to be losing bees to mites? We're all aware of the SC claims. This was such a glaring example for me, I can't simply throw it to the side and ignore it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Barry said:


> So Clayton, we go way back to early discussions of SC. What is your plan when any of your bees can't handle it? And of course the nagging question that keeps coming up for me is, why would I use SC comb if I'm still going to be losing bees to mites? We're all aware of the SC claims. This was such a glaring example for me, I can't simply throw it to the side and ignore it.


I like the number of bees per frame with SC compared to Rite Cell, so it's got that going for it. If someone would sell it in plastic (without having to butcher one piece frames), I would love to run it in my hives... I don't like the full plastic frames. I put 60 of them into use this year and while most got drawn well some are messes and they aren't very sturdy. Supers could still be 5.4 so extracting wouldn't be quite so big a deal.

In fact I've got a couple colonies with almost all small cell, the rest have a smattering. Maybe I'll put 4-5 frames in the middle of the brood nest so the majority of the brood in on smaller cells for density.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jwcarlson said:


> I like the number of bees per frame with SC compared to Rite Cell


I'm not sure I see why this is a bonus. If a queen was limited in her ability to lay eggs for lack of empty cells...fine. If she's limited by biological limitations...as I think is usually the case....then it doesn't seem to matter how many cells per frame side as long as there are empty cells in the brood nest.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

beemandan said:


> I'm not sure I see why this is a bonus.


If it kept mites at bay, it would be worth it. But using SC has historically been a time and cost hog to get it. I've run out of steam on this one. The Acorn 5.2 plastic foundation is looking pretty good.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Of course, if it kept mites a bay it would be worth it on that alone. It didn't work when I tried it.

I see people suggest that somehow using small cell increases a queen's ability to produce brood....and that I don't see.



Barry said:


> The Acorn 5.2 plastic foundation is looking pretty good.


 When I ran a foundationless yard my brood comb averaged 5.1 - 5.2. That is what I believe to be natural cell size here.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

> So Clayton, we go way back to early discussions of SC. What is your plan when any of your bees can't handle it? And of course the nagging question that keeps coming up for me is, why would I use SC comb if I'm still going to be losing bees to mites? We're all aware of the SC claims. This was such a glaring example for me, I can't simply throw it to the side and ignore it.


Let me ask a quick question(s) first Barry. Are you losing a hive once in awhile or many every season? Also are you raising your own queens? If so are you grafting or going graftless?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beemandan said:


> I'm not sure I see why this is a bonus. If a queen was limited in her ability to lay eggs for lack of empty cells...fine. If she's limited by biological limitations...as I think is usually the case....then it doesn't seem to matter how many cells per frame side as long as there are empty cells in the brood nest.


I'm not saying she would lay any more eggs. But the geographical span of her nest would be more compact, less bees to cover. That's what I'm getting at I guess. It could make for less boxes needed to give the queen the same amount of space. 



Barry said:


> The Acorn 5.2 plastic foundation is looking pretty good.


I'm almost 100% positive I'll be placing an order for this stuff at some point this winter. The shipping is a killer. $80 shipping for 200 foundations. $100 for 600 foundations. Wish I could find others who wanted the stuff and split the order with them. Nick @ Acorn said they use six pounds of wax per 100 foundations. That's almost exactly how much I use when I coat my Rite Cell. And it takes me forever to do it.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> I'm almost 100% positive I'll be placing an order for this stuff at some point this winter. The shipping is a killer. $80 shipping for 200 foundations. $100 for 600 foundations. Wish I could find others who wanted the stuff and split the order with them.


If you were closer I would split it.....I might do the same over here. I'm using Pierco for most of my frames right now and I like it but I'm always up to try something new. Plus I just found this from a really old post: "We chopped some sheets up placed half a pierco sheet and half acorn sheet in wooden frames and acorn was always drawn out first."


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

thehackleguy said:


> If you were closer I would split it.....I might do the same over here. I'm using Pierco for most of my frames right now and I like it but I'm always up to try something new.


Come on now, it's only a five hour drive! I tell ya what... I'll meet you one tenth of the way. :-D


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Maybe if gas goes down to a nickel


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

biggraham610 said:


> I should also add, there are no migratory beekeepers in my area. There are also, no beekeepers that I _know of _in the immediate area of my main yard. I am sure that helps my efforts, as I am mainly working only with my bees and ferrels. G


My efforts in just doing IPM - removing and checking drone brood, vsh bees, dusting with powdered sugar, and screened bottom boards have been helped by the same situation, no other beeks close by. However, suddenly, there are other beekeepers around me, and Ace should have my oxalic acid in this afternoon. I will treat at least 2 out of 3 hives. The 3rd is a 2 year old vsh queen and I didn't go through their hive 2 days ago, will do it while I treat the others and make my call then. Hive 2 has it bad but she is I think 4th generation from a VSH line and I know the guy who raises that line had to treat last winter for the first time in years. Things change. Most years I hope to be TF, but if IPM bombs I am hoping OAV will handle the situation and I can pull through winter with at least 2 living hives. (I do not go over 3, not enough forage or enough time)

Great thread title by the way, like throwing out live bait at dawn


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Clayton Huestis said:


> Let me ask a quick question(s) first Barry. Are you losing a hive once in awhile or many every season? Also are you raising your own queens? If so are you grafting or going graftless?


Currently, this one hive is it. I gave all my hives to my neighbor a couple years ago. Didn't have the time to give to it and she wanted to get started. When I had them, I was losing 50% every year. Getting the SC wax foundation drawn was such a pain, as it has been from day one back in 2001. I decided when I got rid of my hives I would never go back to the wax SC when I started back up. This was the first hive I've ever had that the comb was drawn out 90% SC. I used the plastic.

I've split, bought queens, used swarm and cutout bees.

Keep in mind, it has always been promoted that the most important thing one can do is to get their bees on SC comb. If nothing else, do this.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

I find the bees will draw that plastic small cell only if I feed them. Then they do a beautiful job on it. If I didn't push them they seemed happy to sit on a small brood nest with a little honey and were content with that. 

If I were to start over I would use Rite cell or Plasticell. The bees in our other yard hopped on that right away.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

> So Clayton, we go way back to early discussions of SC. What is your plan when any of your bees can't handle it? And of course the nagging question that keeps coming up for me is, why would I use SC comb if I'm still going to be losing bees to mites? We're all aware of the SC claims. This was such a glaring example for me, I can't simply throw it to the side and ignore it.


Well I'm at the point were I lose 10 to 20% each year, this includes everything. Mites, bears, beekeeper (me), winter, ect. This didn't happen overnight and I've been at this for 15 yrs. From year 3 to 10 at least 1-2 colonies have crashed to mites even with core broodnest of 4.8 to 5.1. I think that that is realistic for a handful of colonies to crash and I have been breeding from my survivors all along with occasional fresh blood being added. Could be that the fresh blood needs to be selected for survivability thus the losses. I will confess I don't even watch these days, cause I have enough other things to do. Now I will say after talking to Mrs. Lusby that she really wanted me to try either grafting queens using smaller queen cups or allow the bees to raise queens using a graftless method. So for the last 5 yrs I have raised queens this way. Things have changed in different ways the bees seem to bee happy producing small cell combs vs


> Getting the SC wax foundation drawn was such a pain, as it has been from day one back in 2001.


 They actually draw allot of 4.7 combs without all the struggle. Now for many years I have noticed when bringing in fresh blood and putting them on smaller cell sizing the bees would allow the queens to brood up to for a good month or 2. Any where from 50 to 90% of them would be superceded after that. This still happens when I bring in queens. After the queens are superceded they carry on w/o much issues after that. Maybe the bees were telling me something? So I went on my graftless adventure I mention above.



> What's a large cell queen? Queens aren't typically raised from the cells drawn from foundation. And when they are they're floated out of it.


This makes me think of M. Palmer for some reason. When he says, "its all about the jelly". Once upon a time I would have agreed with the above quote. Now I'm not so sure. According to Dee Lusby the concentration of JGH in the jelly is more in smaller cells. I suspect there maybe some truth to this. But I'm just a simple beekeeper. All I know is what the bees show me. I'm left with as many questions if not more than what I have answers for.



> Keep in mind, it has always been promoted that the most important thing one can do is to get their bees on SC comb. If nothing else, do this.


Hmmm true. I always thought it was said its 1/3 cell size, 1/3 breeding, and 1/3 food. I don't think you can separate these. As I said above some just crash, its realistic, no silver bullets or magic wands. I still stand by that cell range of 4.6 to 5.0 makes a difference and I wouldn't be were I'm at now w/o it. Its not the end all be all, but I think its significant still.



> What is your plan when any of your bees can't handle it?


Sorry I didn't answer this. Plan: I let the hive with issues have a time to recover. Sometimes they chew out and purge the broodnest. This will happen around end of august in my area just before fall flow. If the hive doesn't recover and I'm 90 to 100% certain its gonna crash I kill the queen. I wait 10 days. Basic queen rearing here. I come back move the hive 50-100 yards away from its stand. I shake all the bees comb by comb on to the ground. I cut out any queen cells. Hive is put back on its stand. The poor queen genetics is eliminated. Bees with DWV will die cause they can't get back to the hive, any sick or weak bees will likely die there too. Come back in 7-10 days and repeat. I do it a second time to make sure all chewed up bees are gone. Return the next day or so. I shake all the remaining bees into the strongest hives. Ones that can handle extra mites. I take home the hive measure cell size to see what it was. I then melt the combs down and make into new foundation.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Excellent info, Clayton. Thanks.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I don't see why cell size would change the chemistry of the jelly...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

JGH = Juvenile Growth Hormone

One reference: http://www.resistantbees.com/falle_e.html


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Clayton, do I remember correctly that you lost all your hives not too long after going TF and perhaps you had converted to SC as well back around 2004?

Are you using all wax foundation?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> Sorry I didn't answer this. Plan: I let the hive with issues have a time to recover. Sometimes they chew out and purge the broodnest. This will happen around end of august in my area just before fall flow. If the hive doesn't recover and I'm 90 to 100% certain its gonna crash I kill the queen. I wait 10 days. Basic queen rearing here. I come back move the hive 50-100 yards away from its stand. I shake all the bees comb by comb on to the ground. I cut out any queen cells. Hive is put back on its stand. The poor queen genetics is eliminated. Bees with DWV will die cause they can't get back to the hive, any sick or weak bees will likely die there too. Come back in 7-10 days and repeat. I do it a second time to make sure all chewed up bees are gone. Return the next day or so. I shake all the remaining bees into the strongest hives. Ones that can handle extra mites. I take home the hive measure cell size to see what it was. I then melt the combs down and make into new foundation.


Clayton, thanks.:thumbsup:

When our group regressed, we used sc wax foundations from sweden, because they have the right cell measures (4.9 in all directions) and are made out of organic wax.
If foundations are made with paraffin oil or are contaminated with pesticides the bees didn`t draw them out.
Now we use their own wax to press foundations.
Artifically made swarms draw best.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

SiWolKe said:


> and are made out of organic wax.
> If foundations are made with paraffin oil or are contaminated with pesticides the bees didn`t draw them out.


I'm interested in hearing more about this. Which pesticides seemed to affect comb building and at what levels?


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

> Clayton, do I remember correctly that you lost all your hives not too long after going TF and perhaps you had converted to SC as well back around 2004?


In 2000 I started learning about small cell and started using using blank starter strips to start sizing down from 5.4 to the 5.2 to 5.1 cell size. I was still learning and investigating small cell at the time. In the fall of 2000 Dee Lusby sent me some 4.9 foundation to build some foundation plates. I didn't like how they came out. So by the spring of 2001 I got a mill from Tom Industries. I have used my own foundation and dadant foundation as I run out of wax. So in 2001 I made my first official regression. I made some bad choices that year. I requeened 75% of my hives with NWC from California. The NWC were great bees. Unfortunately bees from California and Georgia always do horrible in my area in winter. I did full shakedowns when I regressed straight onto foundation. I believe I had around 60- 65 colonies that year. If I had to do it again I would have used local stock and rarely ever do full shake downs. But there really was no one to teach me much about small cell and I was like a blind man stumbling in the dark. That year I took an 80% loss. I think I've made just about every mistake I could going threw the learning curve. Boy did I learn fast and on the run. Winter of 2001 was my first major loss. Started building back up. In 2004 I lost all but 8 hives, was my second major crash. Started building back up yet again. Fell in love with future wife, boy did that slow beekeeping down  But I kept going yet less diligently. Got married in 2006. Had a son who was born with autistic spectrum who demanded both my wife and I's time greatly. For 3 years I never cracked a lid on a hive. I'm sure they swarmed left and right. I came back had 4 colonies still alive and going good. These were real survivors. I knew exactly where the stock came from too. 3 were Caucasians from Bolling Bee (who used small cell) and the last was a carniolan stock from VT. Those 4 colonies formed the bases of what I use today. I mainly bring in only northern stock usually from the north east. Anything that comes here better be able to handle -30F and that w/o windchill. So Barry to answer your question, I had two major crashes. A few years of major neglect. Numbers have dropped really low but no complete losses. If I lost everything I would just keep going, I love bees I sure as heck don't keep them to get rich, I plan on keeping them till my dying days soo..... I've been to the bottom of discouragement ready to toss in the towel and I've had my good years. That's the nature of farming/ agriculture. All I've wanted was a clean sustainable beekeeping to pass on to the next generation. Never cared my for "organic" this and "that" bullcrap devoid of reality. Its not normal for bugs to dye off in masses. Look at flys and mosquitoes there every where. Just seems wrong to me that the honeybee is so out of balance on a global scale, and I don't think its a cell size thing either.



> Are you using all wax foundation?


Mostly. Little bit of plastic. I also don't think 4.9 is the magic number. I think where you live plays a part. Also what race of bee changes things a little too. Italian type bees tend to bee the smallest in sizing going as low as 4.7 for me in my area. Caucasian seem to be in the 4.8 to 4.95. Carnies are the largest in sizing going more to the 4.9 to 5.1 side. Not 100% sure what our Russian bees are here in the usa, and I don't really have to much experience with them. With that said most beekeepers use many types of stock and mutts (me included). Using a cut off line to match the different types of bees makes sense. For me that line is between 4.9 and 5.0 for most bees I keep. If you live in TX using carnies 4.9 might be fine, with Italian type bees it may be 4.7 to 4.8 is the line. Its something you have to work out watching the bees for your area. I don't believe in a cookie cutter cell size being right for a country as big as the US. That's why I like wax foundation they can go smaller or bigger. In your early sizing down days you'll pull your hair out thinking I'm nuts. Given a few years you will see they will adjust there size. Its at that point were wax shines the best. Plastic is probably the best for starting out. I never had that option.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It's interesting Caucasians seem to get brought up a lot when I talk to some TF peeps as well. Clayton, do you think the years of neglect helped select some resistance for you? I don't really believe in the true bond approach some people practice as it's fairly easy to screen for resistance w/o letting them die and deadouts, no matter how hard I try, just aren't very productive.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

> It's interesting Caucasians seem to get brought up a lot when I talk to some TF peeps as well.


There a nice bee. I think that due to there lack of popularity here in the states they have less of a narrow genetic pool (Possibly) they may have more traits for survival to draw from I can only speculate here. Possible similar to some of the Russian bee traits. 



> do you think the years of neglect helped select some resistance for you?


Maybe. They were still alive. I couldn't say how much genetics vs small cell played out. After my second major crash varroa was much less of an issue. The state of the bee yard after those 3 years was shameful. The brush was grown over 15 ft tall over the hives. The the grass and berry bushes were almost impossible to get threw. The hives were punky, you could push your finger threw the wall or BB's almost anywhere, rotten crap. Only the combs were of any value. The bees were strong surprisingly. I didn't expect any survivors. From there I worked with what I had.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Clayton Huestis said:


> For 3 years I never cracked a lid on a hive.


Same here, Clayton.  During this exact time, I went through a divorce and the bees were left to themselves for 3 years. They didn't make it the 4th year, so I started all over. We went through the whole regression thing at the same time doing shakedowns. That's a dastardly way to do it. Got EFB for the first time. Stress, stress, stress.

I was able to get my numbers back up to 12 hives and had them at a great spot for two years. Then a neighbor lady saw my hives and complained to the county. They were on a 4.5 acre lot next to a prairie preserve, but 5 acres was minimum to comply with the county, so I had to move them. This was in September and I had no choice but to move them to my own house. Don't have much room here so I had to combine a lot and get them down to 5 hives. Then finally I decided to help get my neighbor started so passed them on to her. I'll keep a couple hives here, but I just don't have the time right now to give to it. Told my wife that when I get back going with bees, we're going to buy something that has an out building on it so I can drive my truck right up to it and load/unload bees and equipment.

I milled all my own wax when visiting the Lusby's in 2001. That's what I've used all these years. Her mill gives no cell side walls so the bees would build right over it and pay little attention to the 4.9 sizing. It was frustrating. This year using the plastic was a breeze. Can't see using wax again. The Mann Lake SC plastic is great foundation but the frame part is crap.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

It's really a shame the attach the frame part isn't it?


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"It's really a shame the attach the frame part isn't it?"

It's an opportunity for someone.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

jim lyon said:


> I'm interested in hearing more about this. Which pesticides seemed to affect comb building and at what levels?


It was our 6 year experience. We send some samples to laboratories . The bees avoided contaminated foundations.

http://resistantbees.com/blog/?page_id=1598

it`s not translated yet, I`m sorry.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Riverderwent said:


> "It's really a shame the attach the frame part isn't it?"
> 
> It's an opportunity for someone.


There must not be much demand because no one I have asked has been interested at all (by the sounds of it) of producing the stuff for sale. I think at one point someone did... same with 1 1/4" end bars. Made the mistake of wasting effort at shaving a bunch of foundationless frames down so now I have an eclectic mix of 1 1/4" and standard 1 3/8" wide frames to deal with. Silly me.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Why did you shave them down? To try and make 10 frames 11 or 8 frames 9? I have heard that but could never bring myself to do it. I enjoy the extra fraction of an inch I am awarded on one side of the box when it comes time for deep inspections. I actually build my boxes a saw blade width wider than standard for that reason. It is highly unlikely to find the queen on the outside of that frame. I find I roll a lot less bees, and deal with a lot less issues when I can easily remove frame 1 or 10, whichever, and have plenty of room to work. I would not like to have the space any tighter, the way the propolis runs at certain times of the year, I would be reinforcing box ledges consistently if I didn't have that freedom of a fraction of an inch. G


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I shaved them down because someone who shares the last name of a couple presidents touted it as a worthwhile venture... only earlier this year did I come to realize he probably never did much of it himself.

You're absolutely right, 11 frames in a 10 frame box by shaving to 1.25" is a fairly tight squeeze. And since they were foundationless the comb got all wonky and screwy. So it's a jigsaw puzzle putting it all back together... flipping frames to and fro trying to make things fit or get them back on the straight and narrow. Pinching comb, etc. It made keeping bees less fun, honestly. Foundation is so much more efficient. I had a real bad apple in my back yard from a swarm caught Memorial Day. They were a disaster from the get-go as far as comb building goes. And man did they build it fast. Inspection/pinch party every three days was still not enough. First deep nearly full in about 6 days. Second deep of foundation, but shaved frames left too much space and combs build extra deep on outsides so as to make it all real enjoyable.

Lesson learned. Right off it isn't too bad, but once they've been on them for awhile... it's not good. Wish I had the hours spent on my joiner/jointer back shaving down a over a hundred frames worth of end bars.

I'm not even sure how many frames are in the bottom brood box of that colony. The mess has prevented me from looking down there other than "from the top". I was smashing down honey bands and all kinds of goofy stuff trying to right the ship. It will be a project for next spring to sort all of that out. Hopefully it's pretty empty by March and I can decide what to do at that point. 
When I shook a swarm from them in July I housed those bees on bog standard frames and plastic foundation and they drew 20 beautiful frames in just a couple weeks... actually probably faster.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> You're absolutely right, 11 frames in a 10 frame box by shaving to 1.25" is a fairly tight squeeze. 


A standard frame is 1 3/8" in width, which is 1.375". 10 frames of that = 13.75"
A 'narrow' frame is 1 1/4" in width, which is 1.25". 11 frames of that = 13.75"

I'm having difficulty seeing the difference!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I shaved them down because someone who shares the last name of a couple presidents touted it as a worthwhile venture... only earlier this year did I come to realize he probably never did much of it himself.

Hmmm... maybe you misunderstand. Almost all my wood frames are shaved down. Almost all my eight frame boxes have nine frames in them. You would be hard pressed to find one with eight unless it's a honey super and that is more likely to be seven. True, I did not have time to cut down all the plastic. I'd love to, I just don't have the time. But the primary reason to cut them down is that they build smaller cells on natural comb that way. On the Mann Lake plastic they draw it as it's laid out, so it's not a issue.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My experience with varying numbers of frames in a 10 frame box (they are all 8 frame boxes now) are that with 9 they build uneven faces on the comb. Honey protrudes, brood does not. Brood is a fairly consistent thickness. It takes more bees to cover the brood with 9 frames. With 10 frames the comb is more even with less ins and outs, but the honey is still slightly fatter. With 11 frames the comb is very even especially compared to 9 frames. I roll less bees at 11 frames than at 9 frames because of the evenness. If you really need more room, putting a follower or two in to make the room works much better.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Rader, once they are built out you know as well as I do endbars aren't the same thickness they once were.

11 foundationless frames is just goofy as throwing in 9 spaced incorrectly in my experience. Even with manipulation every three days. Talk about not having time to do something. Worthless bee intrusion to fix screwed up comb that I set them up to have trouble with...


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> I roll less bees at 11 frames than at 9 frames because of the evenness. If you really need more room, putting a follower or two in to make the room works much better.


Interesting. I leave my frames standard width but am vigilant in keeping them as tight as possible. That leaves me room on one side to start my inspection from with room to work. I guess I never did the math as Rader illustrated. I just assumed the extra room was going to disappear. Thanks for the explanation and math Michael and Rader. G


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> My experience with varying numbers of frames in a 10 frame box (they are all 8 frame boxes now) are that with 9 they build uneven faces on the comb. Honey protrudes, brood does not. Brood is a fairly consistent thickness. It takes more bees to cover the brood with 9 frames. With 10 frames the comb is more even with less ins and outs, but the honey is still slightly fatter. With 11 frames the comb is very even especially compared to 9 frames. I roll less bees at 11 frames than at 9 frames because of the evenness. If you really need more room, putting a follower or two in to make the room works much better.


With or without foundation?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Listen to Big G, force the frames over at the end of your inspection to reduce build up of propolis.

Crazy Roland


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Any extra room on the edge of a box seems to get filled with honey comb. My 11 frame boxes seem to turn into 10 frame boxes by the end of the summer. My 6 mature hives and 28 nucs are fully workable with mostly foundationless comb on 1 1/4 spacing. They still aren't building it down to 4.9 yet. The last measurements I made are still in the 5.1/5.2 range. I do get some wonky comb. I put it where it gets filled with honey then comes out of the box. 

Next year I may try plastic frames as follower boards on the outside of empty frames on the outer edge of each box. Just to contain that outer honey comb to a reasonable size.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I have noticed that too. What I try to do, is when the tight side is capped on the outside, I switch which side the gap is on. Shifting all the frames to the other outer wall. It isn't always possible, if they have built out that side already, but if you catch it in time, it works great to keep everything in order. Other than the occasional bridge from the outside wall to the capped frame, it keeps everything clean and manageable. G


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Interesting, G and Roland.

I agree that once capped it's probably pretty safe. I usually center them and still have enough room most times. It's not too tight. But over the years with more propolis buildup I could see there being an issue. So by shoving to one side you think they use less propolis or you're just shifting where they're putting it to eliminate some build up?

Do you push all to same side in each brood box or does it seem to matter?

When you push to outer wall do you push endbar all the way to side wall or just close to it?


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah, I used to center mine too JW. However, I found it a whole lot easier to start the inspection from one side with all of the afforded space. I just personally, find that it is easier, to crack that frame loose and have the wiggle room to free the frame instead of having to pry straight up. I do agree with a previous poster, that if left unattended, they will overdraw the last/first frame, so, it might not be a good approach for someone who isn't in their hives much. I just find more often than not, I am in there enough to establish the switch before it becomes a problem. As for the lining up of boxes, I usually have them centered over each other. Not that I think the 1/2" would make much of a difference, but who knows. G


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

biggraham610 said:


> As for the lining up of boxes, I usually have them centered over each other. Not that I think the 1/2" would make much of a difference, but who knows. G


I guess I'm thinking moreso of giving them a guide to hang comb from if they are offset (of the bottom bar of frame above). Seems safer to keep them to one side. Gonna try this next year.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah, I hear you, I think you are referring to laddering, I have not seen any problem even when the boxes were accidentally staggered. The difference in bottom bar and top bar width, will still leave the bottom bar over one side of the top bar, although not centered in the event of reversed boxes, if that makes sense. G


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>With or without foundation?

You quoted a paragraph and then asked this. I don't understand the question exactly. Which? the plastic is all foundation. The wood is all foundationless now, but I've done it with 4.9mm wax. I think the spacing is helpful with with any of those, but is most obvious with foundationless.


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