# Cleome or viper



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Cleome may bloom next summer, but I think viper's bugloss takes two seasons. Also viper's bugloss is a sharp-spined, prickly plant and in many states is considered a noxious weed. I would not plant it close to any grazing or pedestrian area.

Enj.


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## Bee Arthur (Mar 21, 2015)

Yes, I'd favor cleome since viper bugloss has a reputation for spreading invasively and choking out native plants.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

beepro said:


> Cannot decide on which seeds to buy either the cleome or the viper bugloss.
> Should I buy half and half or just one type will do? Any ideas or advice?


*
Neither* There is no history of either naturalizing in California, and thus the money spent on seeds is a wasted investment.

Viper's Bugloss -- Echium vulgare --- is vanishingly rare in California - only a few collections in urban spots on the immediate coast. See: http://www.calflora.org/cgi-bin/species_query.cgi?where-calrecnum=9888

The other shrubby Echium's such as the enormous Pride of Madiera are common in gardens on the coast but survive poorly if at all in the interior. See: http://www.calflora.org/cgi-bin/spe...ium&plantcomm=any&format=photos&orderby=taxon

"Cleome" normally refers to the garden spider plant - Cleome hassleriana. This has no record of naturalizing in California. http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/PlantFinder/PlantFinderDetails.aspx?kempercode=a572

The "Rocky Mountain Cleome" is common in the interior west, but is vanishingly rare in California. It's (new) name is Peritoma serrulata. see: http://www.calflora.org/cgi-bin/species_query.cgi?where-calrecnum=11917

The Golden Bee Plant - Peritoma platycarpa -- is a gorgeous wildflower native to the Modoc Plateau -- It might survive in Sacramento, but would require you to collect your own seeds. See: http://www.calflora.org/cgi-bin/species_query.cgi?where-calrecnum=11916

There are shrubby Cleome relatives that are native to dry scrubland on Southern California interior foothills -- see http://www.calflora.org/cgi-bin/species_query.cgi?where-calrecnum=11912 These might survive in Sacramento -- they are favored by native bumblebees in my observation, and are not much used by honeybees. The plant has a nauseating odor, and might not be welcome in a garden.

My recommendation for gardener's wanting to "save the bees" in California is simple: Preserve and Protect native habitat from the bulldozer and the endless stucco housing tracts. More practically, observe what the "dearth" season is locally, and expand the few flowers that bloom in those hungry times. In Sacramento grasslands, that might be the August flowers -- Croton Californica, Trichostema lanceolatum, or Eriogonum spp. are good first choices.


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

It is not my place to counsel you on a subject that I know little or nothing about, however, I do feel comfortable sharing the process My wife and I are taking. Last Fall we planted 1/2 acre of a wild flower mix and bee friendly flower seeds. They are all native to the Utah desert and all grow at a high altitude (6,000 ft or higher). We ordered 4 linden trees, two early bloomers and two later. The holes are dug and we are just waiting for April. The field has annuals, semi-annuals, and those that come up every year. It will be interesting to see what prevails after a year or two. The flower seed is very tiny so we used rice hulls to mix the seed with to give it enough mass to be able to plant it by hand sowing. I lease out 10 acres of alpha alpha to a neighbor and after cutting first crop, we plan to let out share just grow the rest of the year so the blossoms can mature and hopefully provide forage for the bees. The neighbor can graze off the field after the growing season is over. I reads some where in the tree propaganda that a fully mature linden tree provides as much total honey in the hive as a full acre of clover. we'll see! 

It is good to hear that you are planting for the future. I hope this will, in some small way, assist you with your venture. Best wishes, LP


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Echium vulgare Vipers Bugloss is not a spiny plant. They have
the many different color flowers when they bloom.
Looks like I will try both since the cleome is an annual.
This is the only way to preserve the bee habitat out here.
The open fields here only have the oat grass. Nothing else
is growing out there. I did saw
some lupine blooming in patches at the higher elevation though
not in the valley open fields but no honeybees visit them.
I need to plant an acre of the cleome and the vipers without
the spiny thorn. How many pounds or grams of seeds do I need?
We will see if they will grow in our hot summer semi-desert like 
condition here this Spring. If they flower in the nearby surrounding
open fields then my hive expansion will grow significantly.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Oh well. Horse to water.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

The reason you only see oat grass may have to do with intrinsic factors on the sites: soil (especially pH) and available water (especially in CA in a hot summer and and semi-desert area). Planting garden plants and expecting them to naturalize is likely to be wasted effort.

Even the often sold "wild-flower mixes" are usually a bust, alas. Many will not survive and if mowed in the growing season will never bloom. Dormant season mowing intended to suppress woody plants and berry suckers may help.

As JWC says the best bee forage enhancement is protection of hedgerows, waste spaces and native stands. The flowering plants/forage plants growing there have a demonstrated ability to survive. 

@LarryPeterson:

Linden (_Tilia americana_, commonly known as Basswood will produce enormous amounts of nectar, though usually a bumper crop only once every three or four years. But it takes about a decade or more to even begin flowering, and twenty years to come into full force. I have one here in my barnyard which was transplanted from the wild by the previous owner that's now about 35-40 feet tall. This past spring it had more blossoms on it that I have ever seen (and I have lived here for 30 years) and you could hear my bees and other insects working on it from 75 feet away. It requires a lot of water to thrive, often growing in the wild along stream banks. The Little-Leaf or European Linden with (IIRC that's _Tilia cordata_) blooms at a smaller size and younger age. It's often used here in NY in road median strips and along sidewalks in small cities so I think it will survive harsher situations than Basswood.

Enj.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

"The reason you only see oat grass may have to do with intrinsic factors on the sites"

It is just the yearly summer drought and the lack of suitable
plants in the oat fields here. Nobody bother to sow any other
kind of bee seeds because everything turn golden yellow in the
summer time. There are 2 plants that thrive
there with the oats. The wild mustard and the purple flower pea
vines with small leaves will grow in these fields. I'm looking for
other Spring blooming plants to provide more nectar other than the
pollen alone. Something that will bloom in early or late Spring before
the summer drought hits from mid-June to September. 
Now you mention my area with a semi-desert condition, the late Spring or
early summer bulbs might have a chance here. There are many bee friendly
bulbs that will only bloom once a year and go dormant in the summer time.
I need to find some of those. Last year's yellow oxalis, snow drops and
crocus did regrow now in my garden when testing a few of them. Any ideas
or bulb species that can go through out yearly summer drought? The golden
rods did but they don't produce much nectar because I did not water them all
summer long last year. That is why I like to test out some cloeme and vipers
to see if they will reseed themselves.


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## nlk3233 (May 19, 2014)

Hi there Beepro,

I like both cleome and Viper's, never grown the viper though.
I would make one recommendation, and thats Purple tansy. It is so incredibly cheap per pound and native to Cali.
Not sure if you have considered it or not.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

beepro said:


> Echium vulgare Vipers Bugloss is not a spiny plant. They have
> the many different color flowers when they bloom.
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

try this site for recommendations and mixes for your area 

http://www.xerces.org/pollinators-california-region/


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