# First Year Hive with 4 Brood Frames in a 10 Frame Box by August



## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

The brood looked a bit spotty. Honey rainbow was not great. Are there any pure honey or pollen frames? Looks like they may be struggling a bit, strange pattern.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Do you shake the bees off the frames before taking a picture or something? Looks like a few decent brood frames at the 6 week mark, kind of not synchronized at all which leads me to suspect a damaged queen or poor layer, but I do see eggs even at that time. Second set of pictures, can't see much, again, where the bees, and it looks like there's not much stores in terms of pollen or open nectar at all.

Brood patterns should look like this from any queen worth keeping..


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## jhinshaw (Aug 14, 2014)

I don't shake any bees off. Unfortunately that's just how few are there in the hive. I just assumed my smoker was doing a great job lol...and also that my colony is super weak. As for the pattern, one of the frames is spotty because of where we secured the queen box when she was installed then later removed it. It's worth noting that I've never personally seen the queen any time I've inspected since she was installed. 

Is it too late in the season to requeen? What if I can't find the existing queen in order to successfully requeen? I feel like the clock is TICKING on the end of summer.


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## jhinshaw (Aug 14, 2014)

No pure honey or pollen frames.


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## ggoodman (Jul 28, 2014)

Man that is spotty time for a new director!/? but Im a new beek


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Yeah, should be more solid. A nuc with a catched queen isn't a good thing. You want the queen already running around in the nuc, she layed all the brood. That is a true nuc. What you got was a caged queen from who knows where and frames of brood. Where did you buy it from?

JRG13 picture is a perfect example of what you are looking for. Solid brood or hatched out rainbows. Peppered brood is not good. Its a sign that larva/pupa are dieing, the queen is poor or the population is low. 

Typically a queen will lay out rainbows of brood. It may not the queens fault, sometimes a week hive doesn't have enough bees to support her. But eventually they should overcome the population inbalance with decent forage.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I have no experience but you do have worker brood and open larvae. What you don't have at the moment is bees

Hopefully you get some more into your hive...from another hive that is strong.

I hope those with experience can/will speculate on what happened to the population.


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## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

It almost sounds like to me that you might have lost an original queen and they made another. That would account for low density of bees and what looks like decent brood now. I would put the syrup to them constantly. Spray some on the undrawn frames. With few bees they will not draw it out until they need it, but eventually will with a good laying queen. I would be watching the spotty brood. It looks like there are larvae in most of the cells and will get capped resulting in a good pattern. The most important question is do you have a mentor or a bee association close to you. It helps tremendously to have an experienced eye looking in when you need them (or don't know you need them).


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I seen the spotty pattern where there are not enough bees to cover. The brood dies of exposure, or lack of care. The queen lays back into the dead out open cells.

You need to get more bees, its sometimes possible to purchase frames with bees from other bees. Alternatively, drop them back to a small nuc, and the existing bees can cover the core frames more efficiently. 

In general, the hive looks like it is trying, but is way under the critical mass to grow. You need to get the colony back up over critical size, or they will continue to sputter and dwindle.


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## OC_Bees (Jul 4, 2014)

Brood pattern looks pretty spotty. You could try requeening now, but it really looks like your population isn't high enough to sustain queen laying. Either the queen is bad or you just don't have enough bees and nurse bees. I would put a feeder on the hive and feed them 1:1 constantly. Any undrawn foundation spray with sugar water to get them to draw it out. 

You'll need to feed so they can build up honey stores for winter too.


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## jhinshaw (Aug 14, 2014)

JWChesnut said:


> I seen the spotty pattern where there are not enough bees to cover. The brood dies of exposure, or lack of care. The queen lays back into the dead out open cells.
> 
> You need to get more bees, its sometimes possible to purchase frames with bees from other bees. Alternatively, drop them back to a small nuc, and the existing bees can cover the core frames more efficiently.
> 
> In general, the hive looks like it is trying, but is way under the critical mass to grow. You need to get the colony back up over critical size, or they will continue to sputter and dwindle.


This is making a lot of sense to me since this morning I saw 5 dead bees/pupae on the porch of the hive. As a strategy, could I remove the 2 outermost frames from either side (4 frames total) of my 10 frame brood box since they are undrawn and let my bees catch up on the 6 frames for a couple weeks on the 2:1 I'm feeding before I attempt to force them to draw more frames? That would leave their existing 4 brood frames that need attention as well as the 2 they have been trying to pack with honey and pollen. 

I'm not sure if I can buy a frame of bees from a local keeper. I'll have to check around.


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## jhinshaw (Aug 14, 2014)

burns375 said:


> Yeah, should be more solid. A nuc with a catched queen isn't a good thing. You want the queen already running around in the nuc, she layed all the brood. That is a true nuc. What you got was a caged queen from who knows where and frames of brood. Where did you buy it from?
> 
> JRG13 picture is a perfect example of what you are looking for. Solid brood or hatched out rainbows. Peppered brood is not good. Its a sign that larva/pupa are dieing, the queen is poor or the population is low.
> 
> Typically a queen will lay out rainbows of brood. It may not the queens fault, sometimes a week hive doesn't have enough bees to support her. But eventually they should overcome the population inbalance with decent forage.



I did get a caged queen from the local beekeeper supply as well as a box of bees. They have been a great resource to me so far.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

You need to reduce their space down to the amount of frames they cover and put back in a 5 frame box probably.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Something that will help you out is a pair of gloves. You'll have the confidence to get in their and work. Also, when you do need or want to have a look into the hive pull the outer frame out and lean it against something. This way when you wanna pull out your next frame you could slide it over a bit and then pull it. This way you don't roll your bees and you could really get a good look.

Look on Craigslist in the Knoxville area and call someone from their if your wanting frames of broad and bees.

Good luck!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I may have missed it but what is the mite level? Much of the area within the capped brood has been relaid except one panel that looks good. The queen is working a broad area but something is keeping the brood from emerging. I had a similar appearance in a nuc and mites was the cause. For certain there is not enough bees to cover the brood the queen is producing. I think reducing them to a five frame box or putting a filler in half the ten frame would help them.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

check your mite levels. see nybeewellness site or Ontario bee association site for how. if you have a vsh sensitive colony [vsh queens offspring] and a high mite level you end up with brood like this and a weak colony. check the mite count.


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## AZBEEK (Jun 15, 2011)

The first thing I notice is no smoke coming from your smoker, second when removing frames for inspection take the first frame completely out of the box set it aside or use a frame holder. Slide the next frame away from the other frames inspect and set that one aside also, then continue moving frames away from the others so as not to roll the bees or injure the queen.
Has anyone noticed the sunken look of the capped brood? From the look of the frames there is a queen there but weak, injured or not mated correctly. I would suggest feeding with a 1:1 syrup inside the hive with a top feeder or Baggie but keep the feeder enclosed in the hive. I also do not not see much stored pollen you may have to feed a pollen substitute if there is no pollen coming into the hive.


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## jhinshaw (Aug 14, 2014)

AZBEEK said:


> The first thing I notice is no smoke coming from your smoker, second when removing frames for inspection take the first frame completely out of the box set it aside or use a frame holder. Slide the next frame away from the other frames inspect and set that one aside also, then continue moving frames away from the others so as not to roll the bees or injure the queen.
> Has anyone noticed the sunken look of the capped brood? From the look of the frames there is a queen there but weak, injured or not mated correctly. I would suggest feeding with a 1:1 syrup inside the hive with a top feeder or Baggie but keep the feeder enclosed in the hive. I also do not not see much stored pollen you may have to feed a pollen substitute if there is no pollen coming into the hive.


I really appreciate these tips. I've never done this before so I wasn't sure of the best approach. What is rolling a bee? Does that mean killing them or injuring them? I should probably get a frame holder...

I did notice the sunken caps on the brood this most recent visit but didn't know what to make of it. I'm still getting a feel for what is normal vs problematic. The morning after I visited there were dead pupae on the landing board which I still don't know if I should consider hygienic or a problem.


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## jhinshaw (Aug 14, 2014)

crofter said:


> I may have missed it but what is the mite level? Much of the area within the capped brood has been relaid except one panel that looks good. The queen is working a broad area but something is keeping the brood from emerging. I had a similar appearance in a nuc and mites was the cause. For certain there is not enough bees to cover the brood the queen is producing. I think reducing them to a five frame box or putting a filler in half the ten frame would help them.


I've not checked the mite level yet. I will do so this coming week. What is an acceptable filler for the 10 frame? I'm not familiar yet with fillers...


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

AZBEEK said:


> The first thing I notice is no smoke coming from your smoker,
> second when removing frames for inspection take the first frame completely out of the box set it aside or use a frame holder.
> Has anyone noticed the sunken look of the capped brood? I would suggest feeding with a 1:1 syrup inside the hive
> I also do not not see much stored pollen you may have to feed a pollen substitute if there is no pollen coming into the hive.


All those observations are correct. The smoker and frame technique will develop in time.

The capped brood does look a bit dehydrated --- and if you look carefully at the two frames pictured in the final inspection stills, many of the caps are pin-holed. This means even the capped brood is dying.

I think, given the host of issues, the hive is terminal. The next step is comb protection so another attempt can be made next spring.

Detail from the stills -- the caps are pinholed.


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## NCBeekeeper (Apr 4, 2013)

Find a mentor... Are you near any Bee Clubs? I would reduce it down to a smaller box if I had one and Feed, feed, feed, feed, 1:1 sugar syrup. It honestly doesn't look very promising, but never give up. I wouldn't recommend ever taking the frame from over the box unless you know the queen is not there. You don't want her to fall off on the ground.


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## jhinshaw (Aug 14, 2014)

NCBeekeeper said:


> Find a mentor... Are you near any Bee Clubs? I would reduce it down to a smaller box if I had one and Feed, feed, feed, feed, 1:1 sugar syrup. It honestly doesn't look very promising, but never give up. I wouldn't recommend ever taking the frame from over the box unless you know the queen is not there. You don't want her to fall off on the ground.


I wont give up! It probably sounds ridiculous but I'm heartbroken over the thought of losing them.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

for august 3 0r 4 mites or more per 100 bees is the treatment recommended level. for the spring it is 1 or 2. this is for an alcohol wash . for a sugar shake you double the number counted to get to an alcohol wash equivalent. if you get about 7 or more per 100 the mite level is much too high, over 10 the colony is in real trouble. I saw one, at a train the instructors course recently, over 20 :"dead hive flying".. see nybeewelness site or Ontario bee association site for more information.


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## jhinshaw (Aug 14, 2014)

mathesonequip said:


> for august 3 0r 4 mites or more per 100 bees is the treatment recommended level. for the spring it is 1 or 2. this is for an alcohol wash . for a sugar shake you double the number counted to get to an alcohol wash equivalent. if you get about 7 or more per 100 the mite level is much too high, over 10 the colony is in real trouble. I saw one, at a train the instructors course recently, over 20 :"dead hive flying".. see nybeewelness site or Ontario bee association site for more information.


I think it would be best for me to try the sugar shake since I can't afford to lose any more bees. Not sure I'd know how to go about counting how many bees are in my jar but I'll give it a go!


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

sugar shake is good for a small colony. put 1/2 cup [300 bees][ do not get the queen] in a quart mason jar add 2 table spoons of powdered confectioners sugar and shake, dump the sugar on a paper plate. the jar must have a #10 screen top to separate the test sugar from the bees. mist the sugar with water till it desolves, count the mites. add more sugar, same amount, to the jar and repeat a couple more times with new plates. when done you can dump the bees out in front of the hive they will be white like ghosts but ok. add the total number counted divide by 3 this gives you mites per 100 bees. multiply this by 2 this gives you an alcohol test equivalent. if this number is over 3 or 4 this time of year treat. the test bees should come from the brood area. the second plate is lower than the first always, if it is only one or none then 2 plates is enough. to make the test jar use a one quart mason jar with a 2 piece lid, discard the inner seal lid and replace with a round #10 screen that you cut out. tips: be sure the jar and the powdered sugar is real dry, do not put your hand on the screen while shaking without a thick glove. to take the sample shake the bees into a plastic dish tub then measure them with a full 1/2 cup measure cup.


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## Pete O (Jul 13, 2013)

AZBEEK made some very important observations, VERY important. When inspecting a hive, you should always start on the outer frame or a frame that you know has little or no activity; this frame should then removed and (best) then hung on a frame hooks and not placed on the ground. Once an outer frame is removed, there is an important space; now you can slide the adjoining frame into that space for inspection. Pulling a frame full of bees next to another frame full of bees will create a situation where the bees will "roll" as the frame is extracted; if your queen is amongst those bees there's a good chance that she will be rolled and killed as you pull the frame. Always allow plenty of room between frames when inspecting.

I noticed too that your smoker wasn't doing much of anything. If you go to some local business park you should be able to find some pine trees and from there you can bring home bags of pine needles. Pack them fairly tight in your smoker, light it with a long butane lighter, and close the top of the smoker once you have good flame, close the lid. There are many fuels for smokers but pine is purely organic and that's just what I use; it's also free.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

You have so few bees I would not bother with a shake of any kind. At this point most of the mites are likely gone, as there is not enough viable brood to support a population, and the phoretic mites have died with their hosts. You would get a small number, and think that mites are not the problem, but the answer to that is mostly unknowable at this point. 

Hit the hive with Oxalic or Formic, and see what drops out. In other words, just "shake" the whole hive, I doubt if there are much more than 1000 bees in the whole kit-and-kaboodle. It really is salvage time. Either go big with new introduced bees, or chalk it up to experience.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

Pete O said:


> [ When inspecting a hive, you should always start on the outer frame or a frame that you know has little or no activity;],,,,, it is better to start with the second frame in, then look at the out side one. you are much less likely to break a frame with you hive tool or to squish the other frames together. the tool is at a lower angle more up than sidewards.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Rolling the bees is when you slide the frames into a tight slot and they end up rolling as you slide it in. After your done in the hive slide all the frames together and with the last frame shack the bees on top of the other frames with a quick downward motion. This will help keep the bees from being rolled. As you get more bees in there you may need to smoke them down before you put the lid on.

A filler is anything that will help confine the bees to a smaller area in the box. Look up follower boards in the general search box and use that as a general guide.


Feed syrup and pollen substitute asap.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

if you have small hive beetles feed pollen sub. a little at a time slowly.


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## jhinshaw (Aug 14, 2014)

I HAVE BEES!

I wanted to update this thread since I have used everyone's good advice as much as I've been able! I added a reducer to the entrance because large European hornets were going nuts over the feeder and this morning I saw my bees bearding the front of the hive some on the landing board, which I've never seen before. I also removed one of the frames in the hive body so I now have 9 frames in a 10 frame hive. 

This is around a week since my last inspection and the feeder was EMPTY! We washed it out (got rid of SHB larva) and fed them again 1:1. Below are some pictures of the inspection. I may upload the video but I was swearing a lot so I thought maybe I shouldn't haha. I took everyone's advice about sliding the frames to avoid rolling bees and although I'm not a pro at it yet, I think removing one of the undrawn frames was a BIG help. 

Let me know what you think about the pics! Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond to me!

http://imgur.com/a/OZqZO


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## jhinshaw (Aug 14, 2014)

Also thought I would ask: in the pictures, is this activity considered "festooning"?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Yes, but I don't know why they're all on the bottom of the frames like that right when you pull them or do they become like that after you lift them out (is there open space under your frames??)? Here's my thoughts and take it for what it is, based on your pictures.... still a very poor brood pattern. I do see lots of pollen stuck around in those cells, maybe that's the issue, but there just isn't enough brood and bees in that hive to do much. They might build up a little bit with the feeding so keep an eye on them and hope for good weather for a bit.


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## jhinshaw (Aug 14, 2014)

JRG13 said:


> Yes, but I don't know why they're all on the bottom of the frames like that right when you pull them or do they become like that after you lift them out (is there open space under your frames??)? Here's my thoughts and take it for what it is, based on your pictures.... still a very poor brood pattern. I do see lots of pollen stuck around in those cells, maybe that's the issue, but there just isn't enough brood and bees in that hive to do much. They might build up a little bit with the feeding so keep an eye on them and hope for good weather for a bit.


I THINK it is happening as I pull up the frame because they normally look covered until I start raising. I wasn't sure if I should be alarmed or impressed by the dripping bees lol. After doing some reading, I was considering requeening to adjust my brood pattern and continually feeding. Not sure if my bees could handle a more active queen based on Beesource folks input but I figured it could be worth a shot?

EDIT: I also checked my records and I actually installed this hive first week of June. Not sure if that makes a difference in how far along I should expect them to be.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Drippy bees is a less desirable trait, are they aggressive at all? Most people like bees that stay on the comb but drippy bees makes for easy inspections since yours seem to clear out quick. Problem is not that you have a more active queen, but a queen that can lay a nice solid patch of brood in a timely manner which makes for a nice compact efficient broodnest.


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## jhinshaw (Aug 14, 2014)

JRG13 said:


> Drippy bees is a less desirable trait, are they aggressive at all? Most people like bees that stay on the comb but drippy bees makes for easy inspections since yours seem to clear out quick.  Problem is not that you have a more active queen, but a queen that can lay a nice solid patch of brood in a timely manner which makes for a nice compact efficient broodnest.


They are really very laid back bees. If I didn't have to move them away from frames to inspect them I doubt I would even need the smoke. I've so far not been stung and never found stingers in my suit. Whenever I do a full brood inspection, at most there is only ever one bee that gets pissed and that stops if I walk away for a moment. The drippiness is actually the perfect depiction of how laid back they are. 

They are however very aggressive of their landing board because of robbers. The bees huddle on their landing board and anything that tries to land they all jump at. It looks like a sports game when the audience is doing the wave. I put a reducer in to hopefully help them out.


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## jhinshaw (Aug 14, 2014)

*UPDATE!*

Just thought I would post on my hive's progress. I requeened them in mid-late August, treated with ApiGuard (one tin) and have been feeding them 1:1 nonstop + Honey B Healthy. I also have been doing a Nosema drench spray every week and a half (Honey B Healthy + 1:1). I've seen a marked improvement in population already but I'm still nervous about stores for winter. Not sure how much is enough. 

Let me know what you think! Pics in link! If you look at the OP you'll find former pics of my hive to compare. Happy looking!

http://imgur.com/a/2P50w


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

the " drench" you are using is of little use. the only recognized treatment for nosema is fumagilin. the latest research is showing that this treatment does lower nosema counts a lot but leads to much higher levels than untreated in a couple of months. probably the best way to deal with a suspected nosema problem is to work towards overall healthy well-fed bees. do not treat without a lab test and recommendation, newer brood comb may also help. [reference: Ontario bee assoc.]


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## jhinshaw (Aug 14, 2014)

The drench was recommended by the local beekeeping association I use. I do not have particular suspicions about Nosema at this time but used the spray as they suggested. It doesn't do harm and the bees seem noticeably calmer afterward. I keep the policy of staying away from antibiotics/antimicrobials unless there is a defined reason to use them, both in my personal life and in keeping animals. 

Thanks for your input!


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

I think your right that the drench will not hurt anything but alas it will not help much or at all. I understand that Ontario bee association does research associated with Guelph univ. and is Canadian government funded, I do not recall the exact details. it is much more than a local bee group.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

looks like the bees are doing much better after you re-queened in you first video u smoked them too much that why the were all hanging on the bottom of the frames.you can use a puff or two at the entrance before you open the hive then after you open the lid you can use one puff then you would not have to use the smoker unless they get upset or if you get stung use the smoker over the bee sting then a puff or two in the hive.then you can resume the inspection.


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