# Those [expletive] suppliers!!



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Let’s see if I have this right. During the winter when their revenues have decreased to a trickle, the beekeeping supply companies are supposed to go out and borrow money to buy about a million of each and every item they list in their catalogs and spend more of that borrowed money to warehouse all of it in hopes that it will all be sold the following season. Is that a correct assessment?


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Apparently! 

Those darn items better be shipped NOW! Who cares if its the busy time of the year. Who cares that I didn't plan ahead. Who cares that they would have huge inventory tax bills that would make all of my supply costs rise... who cares that most of the supply houses are esssentially small businesses themselves. 

They should assume I'll need it and have it ready for me when I say so!


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Dan,

Like any seasonal business, you should have a plan to handle it. If Spring is your busy time, then you need to increase staffing, processors, etc. You don't treat your customers poorly because you don't have a business plan. If so, you will lose business and customers. 

While I can understand if there is a shortage from a supplier and you can't ship a certain item, ok. But you don't hold up an order for 2000 supers because the additional 10 smokers that were also ordered are on back order. Proper business says ship the 2k of supers and then ship again when the smokers arrive. That is the way to do business..over wise it will not be long till you are out of business.

There is no excuse for poor service and shipping with the internet and UPS...its a no brainer and doesn't required skilled labor to pack up a box of items.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Interesting I give most of my business to suppliers in December and January. I can’t remember the last time I didn’t get my order in a timely manner. Even if I really didn’t need it so.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

alpha6 said:


> ...its a no brainer and doesn't required skilled labor to pack up a box of items.


Actually, if you want to get what you ordered and have it packed to arrive in good condition, it does require some skill, practice and common sense. Not necessarily a hallmark of seasonal help. Then the lament would be that all the stuff wasn't packed right or stuff was missing.
Most suppliers do have a springtime plan. The folks I've talked to say that this season has been the biggest they've ever seen. Some have been in the business for decades. You can't plan for a surprise like that.
I teach a beekeeping class. I advise the students to make their list and order in December. I think most beeks would be well served if they did the same.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

I can't understand why people keep making excuses for poor business practices. Yeah, it would be nice to order in December, but given from everyone in the business that SPRING is the BUSY time, it would seem that SPRING is when most people order, therefore, good business practice would dictate preparing for this, not dishing out excuses that everyone in the business should have ordered 6 months ago. Then guess when the busy season would be?? 

Your logic is flawed and not reasonable especially when it comes to the agriculture business. Obviously this is the busy season because this is when the demand is and now is when the need is. I am sure that many like myself try and anticipate what my needs will be for the next year, but when I need extra items and am paying for them, I expect to get those items, not excuses. If thats the case, let me know and I will order from someone else. This is the beauty of a capitalistic commerce. If you can't compete then you will fall by the way side. I think that some of these companies that have been in business decades have gotten away with lousy service because of lack of competition. I dare say that this is no longer the case. Type in "bee keeping equipment" in google and each day you get more and more hits.

If these traditional bee supply companies want to stay in business, they had better develop plans to stay comparative. It's the nature of things....better get used to it.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

alpha6 said:


> But you don't hold up an order for 2000 supers because the additional 10 smokers that were also ordered are on back order.





alpha6 said:


> I am sure that many like myself try and anticipate what my needs will be for the next year, but when I need extra items and am paying for them, I expect to get those items, not excuses.


So I'm clear on this. You 'tried to anticipate' your needs...'some extra items' and you missed by 2000 supers? I'm sure glad you don't work for me. Or maybe I should put it a different way, you wouldn't work for me long. 

I'm not so sure that my 'logic is flawed'. There wasn't any way that I can see for suppliers to have predicted how BIG this season has been. For a fellow who missed the mark by 2000 supers, I'd think you would surely understand.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

alpha6 said:


> If these traditional bee supply companies want to stay in business, they had better develop plans to stay comparative. It's the nature of things....better get used to it.


The nice thing about private business owners..they can choose to whom they wish to sell to...me, I wouldn't sell to you. And I can tell you this, the traditional business bee suppliers get plenty of my follow on business and will continue to...


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

You're right alpha, when someone comes around that has what people want and can get it, the rest will be left sitting on their thumbs. Like it or not, that's the way it is. Excuses and blame won't make the sell. But that place doesn't exist quite yet.

You're right too Dan. It's great they have had such a booming year!! Lots of newbs coming along at a steady stream these days. But this isn't a new phenomena of running out of stock at the start of the season. It's the same ole story every year. Maybe? They will invest some of the extra funds from this year in stock next year? Maybe???

I can completely understand what these guys are saying up top and can empathize with them. But what they fail to realize or ignore which ever the case may be. Is that their customers don't want to "borrow" or invest their money either and most often don't have it to spend. Business operators probably more able to do so and will, but not the small time beeks.

So it's a stand off it would seem. Whos at fault, who needs to bite the bullet and put out the cash? I don't expect either side will change anytime soon possibly. But like I think I said in another post some time ago, when someone sees the potential of what can be gotten by having what people want when they want it. It'll be bad news for any that fail to keep up.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

I can see and agree with both sides. Many customers expect the impossible and get really irate when it can't be done. On the other side of the coin, I think most businesses could do a lot more to accommodate a customer many times when they find it easier to just let it pass. I have received requests at 4:55 PM for overnite shipping for parts for machinery. UPS picked up at my business at 4, I closed at 5. Many times I would ship and they had their parts the next morning.

How???? It was 1:55 in Calif. I would just drop ship from one of the dealers there. Just a little thought and effort on the supplier's side can make a big difference in the customer's bottom line, meaning more business for the supplier in the future.

I always figured a customer had to make enough money to stay in business, or he wouldn't be buying from me next year.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Beemandan,

I was giving an example, I build all my own supers so I wouldn't have this problem. But its the same if you ordered two deeps and they held it up for a queen excluder. Don't you use examples when you teach?

All I am saying is that people I know and work with will not stay with someone who won't or can't fill orders, I don't care if its bee keeping equip, tractors, cattle, feed or cookie mix for someones birthday. The internet is changing the way distributors get the word out...and like I pointed out before there are more and more distributors of equip every year.

You keep using the slow, back order guys...I have a business to run...bees won't wait and neither will I.


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## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

*looking at both sides*

If you look at most businesses, they know when the "season" is and stock accordingly. Take items like lawn mowers, snowblowers, motorcycles, gardening supplies, toys etc.

On the other hand, sometimes you get a winter with much more snow than expected and you can't find a snowblower or even a sled or snow shovel for that matter.

This has been one of those years for bee suppliers.
BUT, not to just let them off the hook, if someone orders bees and a hive or two in january, they shouldn't have to panic because there hive doesn't arive until a week or two before their bees.

The bee supply houses, unless they manufacture their own equipment, are somewhat at the mercy of the companies that make the woodenware.

If you know in the fall that you want to start keeping bees the next year, you can get your stuff and assemble over the winter, but...
If you go to a presentation in december or january and get bit by the bee bug, it would be nice to know you could get equipment in time to assemble and become familiar with it.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

The difference here is the difference between the seasoned veteran of beekeeping and the newb who just got started and hasn't had the experience to know when and what to order.

Even I can be caught off guard, I needed 140 nine frame spacers for the weekend to finish off the last of my honey supers. I remembered to order on Wednesday, got them on Friday, and in service on Saturday. I love it when an emergency plan comes together.  , but I don't normally run my business on that short of a leash. 

Since I had to take so many Permacomb frames, I decided to make enough boxes for the next two years. Got-er-done.  But you never know when you might think you had it all together and you find that you forgot the thin surplus they wouldn't ship in cold weather and you needed it yesterday.

Oh well, you do the best you can with what you have to work with, and if you can't be a bit understanding (read tolerant), then you deserve the angst you live with.


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## Angi_H (Feb 9, 2008)

The big supplyers try otherwise they would have not been in business as long as they have. And you get better service if you call the closest branch to you or if it is really close like mine you drive over there and just pick it up. I have even drived 4 hrs to go and get stuff. All because it still was cheaper then shipping with all of that wood. And yes with gas prices the way they are. I have a Dadant 30 min away and a Mann Lake 4 hrs away. With a Mann Lake pick up spot 1 1/2 hrs away. Even though they are close they still are out of things I needed last min. Like getting so many swarms that I needed more equipment. So I got what they had and will call back later. Like the kids bee suit that my son now wants that is not there. They are also at the mercey of the shippers of there supplies if they are back ordered like everyone else that is is that domino effect which then effects everyone down the line. And this year they did not expect the ammount of orders to hit them when they did. And the woden ware companies got back logged as well as other suppliers. Yes it sucks hat things are backordered. And If I had more money and known there would have been this many swarms I would have been better perpaired then I was. BUt I will know better next year and am buying up now that my econimic stim money is in. And now that I have found out pallet place makes things I know I can get stuff from them as well.

Angi


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Ok, lets flip the coin. Say, for example ol' Fred Rossman decides it going to be a banner year. He loads up on inventory...big time. He hires and trains a boatload of help for the springtime rush. In this case, lets say he was wrong. It turns out to be a slow year. He's borrowed money for his huge inventory and up front labor costs. Now he's got people sitting on their hands. To help offset his losses this year he has to raise his prices. Beeks complain (on Beesource) about his higher costs and go elsewhere. The margins in this business, much like most agriculture, aren't that high. Fred closes his business and looks for a job selling tractors....or whatever.
These folks are ****ed if they do and ****ed if they don't. Their crystal balls don't always predict the future as well as they'd hope.
And yes, alpha6, I do use examples frequently but I preface them with a statement like 'For example'. It helps to avoid confusion. Now I'm curious, what was it that you needed so deperately that the folks at Mann Lake couldn't supply fast enough?


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

alpha6 said:


> You keep using the slow, back order guys...I have a business to run...bees won't wait and neither will I.


Here is the interesting thing about that.... I DON'T HAVE PROBLEMS GETTING MY ORDERS VERY QUICKLY. I order from Brushy, Kelley's, Dadant, Mann Lake, and Betterbee depending on the products. I order in December-February and the ONLY problem I'ved had is Dadant not getting my online order for which they apologized.

The main point I'm trying to make is......... ORDER AT A DIFFERENT TIME. You might just find you won't have anything to complain about.

I also run this as a business and I plan ahead. As a smart business owner you try to anticipate potential bottlenecks. Common sense tells you that "HMMM maybe alot of people might try to purchase alot of their materials at the last minute. I think I'll be proactive and order ahead of the crowd."

I'm not making any excuses for the suppliers. I'm simply saying... YOU as the consumer have choices. Purchasing from others or purchasing at a different time. Lets take some responsibility as the consumer too!


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

What kinda tractors is Fred selling? And how many is does he have?


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Alpha6 says.....

Dan,

Like any seasonal business, you should have a plan to handle it. 

Like anything else....you as the consumer should also have a plan. 

You don't treat your customers poorly because you don't have a business plan. 

You don't treat your supplier poorly just because you waited until the last minute and want your supplies yesterday.

If so, you will lose business and customers. 

Or maybe you are a customer they can afford NOT to have. I can understand folks that have been waiting for some time... or are treated poorly by a sales person. I cannot understand it when the supplier has explained that the product is backordered and the customer continues to send email after email wanting to know when it will arrive. Sure its frustrating. Or when someone starts complaining on a public forum just mere days after the order was placed. As a business owner I don't need that kind of customer. I'll do everything in my power to make my customer happy. If they are not happy I try to make it right with them. However some folks will NEVER be satisfied or are the type to complain about everything. I'll be happy to send those customers to you.

But you don't hold up an order for 2000 supers because the additional 10 smokers that were also ordered are on back order. Proper business says ship the 2k of supers and then ship again when the smokers arrive. That is the way to do business..over wise it will not be long till you are out of business.

Fair enough... I don't disagree with that....Who's arguing otherwise?

There is no excuse for poor service and shipping with the internet and UPS...its a no brainer and doesn't required skilled labor to pack up a box of items.

Again, you'll get no disagreement with me... However, it also takes some willingness to be understanding on the part of the consumer. Businesses can get hammered far more than they expected at times. For the business that has difficulties and tries to make it right I'm willing to give them another shot. If they continue to provide poor customer service and ship dates.... I'll go elsewhere. I am much more understanding on a backordered item than I am an attitude from a person on the phone. If I get an attitude that is hard for me to overcome. That said..... I'll say it again...."Lets take some responsibility on our end."


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Dan says....

"Or maybe you are a customer they can afford NOT to have." I don't know about you, but there are few of my customers that I can afford not to have. Sure there is the odd one that is more work then its worth, but you have to find a replacement customer and if your service or business is getting a rep of poor customer service, then that replacement is going to be that much more difficult to find.

Look, I understand about suppliers and their suppliers and unavoidable shortages, backlogs, trucking problems, weather, and God throwing a wrench in things, I think that the whole point of this thread is that suppliers or any business should take note when its customers bring up problems. If they do not address those issues, then they will lose customers and eventually, all the die hard "my pappy and his pappy before him bought from them" will not be enough to keep the business competitive and they will fail.

Any supplier that tries to resolve shortages, poor customer service and delayed processing and then blames the customer because the customer choose a "bad time" to order is on the road to failure...ask Pan Am, Chrysler, or any other "Huge" business that didn't bother to change and address the needs of its customer base. 

My 2 cents....it don't mean nothing in the scheme of things...the sun will rise tomorrow.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Or maybe its a matter of the consumer getting on the phone and attempting to work through the issue with the supplier to find out what happened. Then trying to resolve the issue with THEM instead of resorting to a public forum and trashing the supplier who may never have even realized the extent of the problem!!


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Dan,

You referring to me or that is just a general statement? 

Actually you are right in working out the problem, but people can still air and discuss problems with suppliers. This forum was set up to address this sort of thing. Hence the "Consumer Report" section.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

alpha6 said:


> Dan,
> 
> You referring to me or that is just a general statement?
> 
> Actually you are right in working out the problem, but people can still air and discuss problems with suppliers. This forum was set up to address this sort of thing. Hence the "Consumer Report" section.


My comments are directed to anyone who is reading this who would rather come here to complain about something rather than going directly to the manufacturer, supplier, provider, etc... and work directly with them to resolve the issue. If the consumer doesn't give the supplier that opportunity to try to understand the issue and make it right then they have no business complaining and trashing them. Often it boils down to a misunderstanding, miscommunication, or even (GASP) A MISTAKE! You bet there are people out that who don't know what customer service and good business is... The suppliers that have been mentioned lately haven't lasted for as long as they have for no reason. Not to say they are perfect... they are not and some could use some customer service advice....

In my opinion, anyone who comes to the Consumer Report section to complain without giving their best effort to resolving their complaint with the supplier or person named is no better than the person they are complaining about. It speaks VOLUMES about the individual who acts in such a way and its NOT positive!

If the shoe fits as they say..............


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Going over this whole thread, I do not see any specific supplier mentioned by name. It appears to me to be a general discussion about suppliers, planning for seasonal increases and general good business practice.

Me thinks some of you are taking this a little to personal. If people can't come here to discuss things, especially in a general sense, then what is the point?

At least the monitors of this thread don't censor what is written as it appears some would like to do.

yeah Dan...if the shoe fits.....


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

*An order I tried to place*

I called a supplier today to ask for a new item they have been advertising, I think for years. It turns out they have been taking money for orders without delivery yet and the first one has not been put into production. Today they said maybe in June the first would be ready but if I placed an order I'd have to wait for years to get mine as they were going to be on back order for a while.

What kind of a business plan is this?
Money first without delivery?
Many year waiting list?
...and they have been advertising?

I'm never gonna order from that lame outfit agin! The first time I tried to do business with them and they had such lousy service. I could not even order one online and had the toughest time talking to someone in sales to get this thing straight.

Here is a link to the offending item...
http://www.globalgiants.com/archives/000106.html

Learn the lesson once new beeks : Order Early.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

*Ok... let's get specific....*

This is a classic example of what I'm talking about. 

In another thread posted yesterday Alpha6 says....
*Mann Lake Stinks too*​ 
I placed a good sized order from man lake. They send me an email saying I should get it in 5 to 7 days later. Today is the 6th and I asked for a tracking number...they said they will send it to me when they ship...so they haven't even processed the order yet...and its going on a week. Last time baby...last frigging time.

You better believe I am taking my business elsewhere.​ 
*Now we see today.....*​ 
*Man Lake doesn't really stink*​ 
I got on the phone with Man Lake about shipping my order. Somewhere between the internet side and shipping there was some confusion, but in seconds he had it cleared up and they are shipping so it should get here pretty close to when they said it would arrive.

The first negative post and trash talking of Mann Lake in this instance NEVER EVEN NEEDED TO HAPPEN. The miscommunication/ misunderstanding was cleared up with a SIMPLE PHONE CALL. And Alpha6 will have his product "pretty close to when they said it would arrive". 

In the meantime Mann Lake is being thrown under a bus for something Alpha6 could have easily addressed and worked out with them to his satisfaction. Instead of doing that... time was spent going to a public forum and trashing them! Sure the comments after the fact show that Mann Lake "doesn't actually stink" but what about the people that read the first comment but don't see the last comment. They may walk away with a negative view of Mann Lake and for no reason. 

In my opinion, posting to a public forum carries responsibility. I'm sure that if Alpha6 were in the position of Mann Lake, he would not feel very happy about the bad press.

Another poster commented about how their credit card was charged even though the item hadn't been shipped. A simple phone call was all that was necessary to explain that the online feature doesn't know that an item is backordered and will go ahead and process the card. Apparently the website explains this. However... for some reason its easier to go to a forum such as this and trash talk the supplier rather than make a simple phone call (OR READ THE WEBSITE) to resolve the misunderstanding.

Please folks... take some responsibility for what you post. Don't just post your complaints without due diligence.... Put yourselves in the suppliers shoes and give them the courtesy you would want if you were in their shoes.

There are REAL issues and REAL supplier problems and dishonest folks out there that we need to hear about. But if you aren't doing your part to resolve the problem... I for one frankly don't want to hear it.

No one is asking for posts to be censored... I'm just asking for people to use some common sense before they start trashing manufacturers/suppliers etc. Enough said!


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Dan,

I am not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand, but for the sake of others here I will try and clarify. As you noted, on ANOTHER THREAD I did post about a problem with Mann Lake and them meeting their obligation for shipping. As you noted, THEY stated they would have the shipment to me in 5 to 7 days. I didn't demand this, they generated that time frame. When they failed to meet it I emailed them about it and was sent an email back stating it hadn't been processed yet. I had to initiate the email about the shipping, a responsible company would have issued one stating that shipping was delayed or something. They didn't have a problem emailing me saying my card had been charged seconds after the order was placed.

Now, here is the key that I think you are missing. Internet commerce is conducted over the internet. If you have to call, then what is the point? I resolved the issue only after calling. It completely defeats the purpose of internet commerce. 

Now to get back on topic, as noted by nursebee here, internet ordering should not be difficult. You may not know this, but there is OFF the SHELF software that will integrate your inventory and your catalog. That way when customers order something it will automatically check and see if that item is in stock. If it isn't, then it will say so. That way the customer has a choice of choosing another item or moving on. Additionally, you can have an option in the check out that allows the shipment to wait for back order items or ship that in stock and then ship again when the back order arrives. It is all very simple really. And NO, you shouldn't have to call to work out issues on internet orders. This is costly for the supplier (having to man the phones) and once again defeats the purpose of internet purchasing. 

Dan posted - "There are REAL issues and REAL supplier problems and dishonest folks out there that we need to hear about. But if you aren't doing your part to resolve the problem... I for one frankly don't want to hear it."

Gee Dan, why don't you give us your rules of exhaustion concerning resolving problems, especially on a thread talking generalities. I guess next you are going to lay into nursebee for their comments because they posted something negative and I sure you "frankly" don't want to hear that either. However, I welcome their comments..as this is an OPEN discussion. Or at least we thought it was. 

Just a hint...telling people what they should and shouldn't post is called "censorship." 

Free speech baby....free speech. I am sure that is what bee source is all about.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Your comments speak for themselves. I've said my piece!


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

Before anyone else uses my name and what I've said as evidence, they should do the following:

1. Click on the link I provided in my previous post AFTER you have read my comments.
2. Reread the last line of my previous post...


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Thanks Dan, 

Glad to put that to rest.

BTW, I really like your trailer set up for your hives. One question though, do you tarp them when moving them to different sites?


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Whewww 

Glad that's over. Who's got the mead???? We need to make a toast!


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

I trust you all that Dadant is super to you.

But I still won't order from them again.

And that's called capitalism. Reward the business that treats you best.

Since I am ordering almost nothing, and you guys are ordering thousands of supers at a time, I trust that your order and your choices will be more influential.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

*Thanks to (a friendly) Keith*

http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif


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## HAB (May 17, 2008)

You guys should see what we in the Hay business go through. We get a specific number of bales each year (up or down with rain and drought) which we sell in a local market.

Good year, lots of rain, many bales = no market = much money lost
Bad, no rain, or far to much rain = no hay = much money lost
Perfect weather, fuel and fertilizer skyrockets in cost = hay to expensive = much money lost
Good weather, expenses stable = Hay Grower Dies in Sock = much money lost

Haying = Much Money Lost


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

yep, and the people who do buy your hay think that every cent they pay you for it is pure profit to you. some people who purchase honey seem to have that mind set, too. in their mind you have no expense to produce it. it seems some have the idea that beekeeping suppliers are also making wheelbarrows of money on each and every item they sell. now retired, i'm working part time at a local ski resort as a tram operator this summer where i deal directly with the public. so, now i know first hand what the poor airline gate agents and flight attendants have to deal with. it sounds to me from reading some of the posts on this forum that those folks dealing with the public by selling beekeeping equipment are in the same boat.

by the way do the initials 'HAB' stand for 'Haying Awful Bad'?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

alpha6 said:


> At least the monitors of this thread don't censor what is written as it appears some would like to do.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> You sure of that?


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Bullseye...

I took it as creative editing instead of censorship.


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## hankdog1 (May 17, 2008)

I can tell you this having the pleasure of dealing with someone who wants something yesterday is not what i would like to hear. I work on hydrostatic transmissions (IVS) for a living had one customer sent the unit down to be repaired. Okay worked my butt off put him at the frount of the line because he was in a bind and he still called every stinking day thinking that i am superman or something. I got it done delivered it picked up the check and when he said he was going to look elsewhere to get it done i promptly told him "good then the feeling it mutual." So try to be understanding sometimes these people even make exceptions for guys like you but you've gotta give the benefit of a doubt. Not all companys are out to get you.


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

>You guys should see what we in the Hay business go through. We get a specific number of bales each year (up or down with rain and drought) which we sell in a local market.<

You forgot folks not wanting to pay a premium price for a quality product. They want to pay the same as when they buy something with a lot of useless foder(trash) and think it's owed to them. I saw a lot of this as a kid.


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