# Walnut tree trap-out



## ken rice (Apr 28, 2010)

A10,I'm familiar with Mr Hogans design.I did'nt see if you were allowing them to leave thru the front of the hive to forage? Nice Pics thanks for sharing.


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

Awesome pics! Thanks for sharing.


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## A10fuelfxr (Nov 23, 2011)

ken rice said:


> A10,I'm familiar with Mr Hogans design.I did'nt see if you were allowing them to leave thru the front of the hive to forage? Nice Pics thanks for sharing.


Yep, there is a 3/8" opening the width of the hive body at the landing board.


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## enchplant (Apr 10, 2011)

Love that design. I like the bracket support and the thick foam is ingenious! So much better than messing around with duct tape!


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## A10fuelfxr (Nov 23, 2011)

Yeah, those old couch cushions came in handy. The foam compressed nicely and molded around all the rough edges.


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## Maddox65804 (Dec 29, 2011)

This looks great! Nice clean construction. The foam was really using your head. I encourage you to share these photos with Cleo Hogan. I think he'd be proud of how his design has been used here.

Would you let us know if the queen comes out into the bait box?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I am proud any time people help bees, and bees help people.

cchoganjr


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Very cool pics A10!! Hope everything works out good for ya!!


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## A10fuelfxr (Nov 23, 2011)

Will do! I am going to add a frame of open brood this afternoon.


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## boknows honey bee's (May 19, 2010)

Extremly impressive technique. i have to do simulat to a pine tree. the soft foam is a great way to seal off the entrance. thanks for the idea. very nice job hope it works out. again inpressed. jeff


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## A10fuelfxr (Nov 23, 2011)

Checked the box today 24 hours after introducing open brood. Bees have moved our and covered the brood but did not see the queen today. I have a screen trap ready to install if I can catch her out and about.

http://s1173.photobucket.com/albums/r583/axmanax/?albumview=slideshow


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

If you don't get the queen in the next 24 hours, cut the end bar (and a chunk of the comb) out of a couple of deep brood combs, so that the frames will wrap around the transition from the tree, then fill the trap with frames, combs if you have them, if not foundation. When you do this, the combs are aligned just like any colony. She will start using the trap as another brood chamber.

If I am just taking starts, (not trying to eliminate the colony) I reset the transition so that it does not come totally inside the trap, so that I can place frames just like in any hive. My transitions are held in place by two screws and can be adjusted. Since your trap is already in place,(and occupied) this would not be feasible on this trapout.

Thanks for the photos. Good job. Have you trapped before.

Here is the link to my photobucket. Look at the photo labeled Horse Cave Trap. It shows the comb butting up against the trap end.

http://s841.photobucket.com/albums/zz339/cchoganjr/?action=view&current=100_2201.jpg

cchoganjr


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## A10fuelfxr (Nov 23, 2011)

Thanks for the helpful information. This is the first time I have tried this. You emailed me pictures and information a while back, so I used that to come up with what I used. I think I can still slide the hive body away from the transition if needed so that it is flush and could fill with frames. I could definitely modify a few frames to wrap around the transition. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge and experience so freely.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Glad to help.

cchoganjr


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## Ricky Bee (Apr 16, 2011)

A10fuelfxr,

Forgive my newbee confusion, but the descriptions I've read of trapout systems before have always included some type of cone-shaped exit from the tree that prevents the bees from getting back in to their native hive. I don't see that in your design. What incentive do the bees have in this case to stay in the new hive instead of returning home? The open brood you placed in the new hive?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Ricky Bee... The cone funnel method for trapping is a time honored, true, and tested concept for trapping bees. It's limitation is that you have virtually zero chance of getting a queen using the cone funnel, and normally it takes longer for a trapout The method that I use gives you a very good chance of getting the queen, and you can take starts in 24 to 36 hours of introduction of the unsealed brood. Look at his photos of bees after 24 hours. Very nice photos..

The incentive is that the trap is another integral part of their hive. They move into it for extra room, a place to lay eggs and a place to store honey, nectar, and pollen. It is the introduction of the unsealed brood that causes the queen to investigate the new chamber, and she will move back and forth between the feral source and the trap. The brood brings out nurse bees, fanners, cleaners, just what you need to make a good start.

If you close off the tunnel, all bees have to come through the small funnel and then cannot get back to the feral source.

Hope this helps.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

A10fuelfxr...I just viewed your photos. Very impressive. Are you sure you did not have the queen. Look at your 3d photo. I can't tell for sure, but that sure looks like the queen in the right side of the photo, near the middle. I tried to enlarge but it distorted. It sure looks like her.

cchoganjr


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## Ricky Bee (Apr 16, 2011)

Great explanation. Thanks!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Ricky Bee...Others.... I am often asked if you are just wanting to take starts, not eliminate the colony, then why not just use that frame of unsealed brood you take from one of your hives, and do a split. And that is a good question. 

In this method, you do take a frame of unsealed brood from one of your hives, but, you don't take any bees from your hives. In making a split. you have to take a frame or two of brood,and a frame or two of bees. Your hive only sacrifices one frame of brood, no bees. Additionally it is not uncommon to get 5 to 10 pounds of bees in your trap in 24 to 48 hours if you have a good tree that is strong. That many bees can build up rapidly and make you a good hive quickly.

cchoganjr


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

And assuming that they don't start a queen cell the instant they see the frame of brood the new hive will have a queen raised from an egg from the queen in the tree (or the queen herself) and thus the tree hive genetics are maintained. How's that for a run on sentence?
Bill


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Whiskers...They may very well start a queen cell when they see the unsealed brood in the trap. (especially if the trap is not very near the brood nest) If they do, no problem, if the feral queen comes into the trap and you move her, (either on the frames, or by moving the entire trap) the queen cell will be destroyed. Any new bees will have the feral queen genetics. If they start a queen cell, and you don't get the feral queen, then the queen from that cell will have the genetics of the hive you took the frame of unsealed brood from.

The feral source will start a queen cell, more likely several queen cells, just as soon as they think they are queenless. In Spring and early Summer, when the queen is laying lots of eggs for colony buildup, there are normally lots of viable eggs for the colony to make a queen from. As summer progresses, the queen cuts down on laying eggs, and the feral source may not realize the queen is gone until there are no viable eggs to make themselves a queen. I don't like to take the queen, and let the feral source make themselves a new one, unless the colony is still building. If you take the queen, that will slow the buildup of the feral colony, and you won't be able to take as many starts. It may take a day or two for the feral colony to realize they are queenless. Then a day or so to build the queen cell. Then sixteen days for the queen to hatch, a couple of days to get bred, three or four days to start laying, so you have lost 30 plus days of colony replacement and build up. So if you take the queen, pull back on trapping, or you may wind up eliminating the colony. If you are wanting to eliminate the colony, take the queen, and this starts the process of weakening the feral source until it can no longer sustain itself.

cchoganjr


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Cleo- thank you for replying to an amateur.

My thought was that if they didn't start a queen cell right away in six days or so everything on the frame of brood would be too old to make a queen. If the feral queen comes out and lays in the trap then if a cell exists on the donor frame you could then remove it and make a nuc with indeterminate genetics. From then on the trap should provide its own brood and could be managed frame by frame and potentially produce a bunch of nucs with the feral genetics. As the frames were removed one would want to be careful not to take the feral queen to avoid stressing the feral hive. True?
Bill


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

True.. If you know that there are no queen cells from the unsealed brood that you introduced. After six days if she lays and you take the frame, and if they start a queen cell, then the egg would be from the feral queen. You would have her genetics. 

Yes, if you leave the trap in place, and she starts laying, then you could take multiple frames with unsealed brood, and enough bees to start a new nuc and you would have her genetics. You will need enough bees to make the new queen cell and to tend the brood that you take.

Yes if you want to keep the feral queen in place, you need to check carefully to make sure you are not moving her. If so, you set back the feral colony by 30+ days, and the possibility of elimination does come into play.

Any time a colony is weakened, and remains queenless for an extended time period of time, you are inviting wax moths and small hive beetles to grab a foothold.

cchoganjr


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Thank you sir- I declare you to be the guru of trapouts.
Bill


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