# New guy's first build of TBH



## Beau Diddly (Dec 28, 2015)

I'm new and currently, I don't own a single bee. I would like to build a TBH now in preparation for a spring purchase. I've read quite a bit about TBH, relatively speaking of course. I've decided on the kind used by Jon Peters on youtube. He's more of a woodworker than beekeeper and his plans better addressed some of my construction concerns that most other plans did not. While I notice there's no consensus, I'm looking for a few clarifications on construction.

Top bar length. Most plans call for a 17" bar, usually 12" within the sides. Is this adequate for a Lang bar? 

Landing pad. Some call for it while others say it helps mice enter the hive. I'm setting my hive behind my backyard facing a power line easement, field mice and wharf rats are common. Thoughts.

Observation window. Many call for it, but some say it isn't worth the effort or the hive sticks to the pexiglass. As a woodworker (hobbyist type), I don't mind the effort. I was planning on making the pexiglass flush with the outside, therefore it would be recessed about 1/2" from the inside. Will this make a difference and is the comb sticking a problem?

Bottom door. I'm in coastal SC and our winters are mild. Do I need a bottom door or will the screen alone suffice? 

Treating the wood. I plan to use untreated pine and will not treat the inside. Some call for linseed oil or a 20:1 linseed oil/wax mix. I don't see this as long lasting as, say a Thompson waterseal. Does it matter for the outside?

Finally, every time I've made something, I later wish I had changed this or that, in other words, "had I known then what I know now..." Any words of wisdom here? Thanks in advance.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

welcome to the wonderful world of beekeeping! In answer to some of your questions, I'd highly recommend that you find plans for a TBH where the bars are 19", because that is the size that fits a Lang hive. The kit I use from Beeline apiaries and woodenware has such bars and is 45" in length.

I do recommend a window, but I always tell my class to make it out of glass instead of plexiglass. That way you can scrape it free of wax without worrying about scratching it.

Here in VA, solid bottom boards are not necessary for winter (although most of us do use them), but I like to put diatomaceous earth on the bottom board for the beetles and other pest larvae to fall into. During the warm summers, I sometimes do remove them do to excessive bearding.

Most of my hives do not have a landing board. It probably helps in the winter time when the bees are a little cold and heavy laden with pollen and miss the entrance. Other than winter, I don't find a landing board to be beneficial.

There are lots of other TBH things on my bees FB page listed in the link below.


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## BobRagsdale (Nov 23, 2014)

If you would like the bars to be interchangeable with a lang they will need to be 19" long and the ends will need be milled to 3/8 inches thickness - flush with the top. The bars themselves should be thicker than that (3/8 inch bars flip over kinda easily when you squish them together whereas 3/4 inch thick ones don't)

I like having a viewing window. Make sure it is flush with inside of the hive otherwise they will build comb into the recess and you can't pull it straight up or interchange it with a comb position that doesn't have a window.

I use Cedar so that I don't have to treat the wood at all. If I were using pine I would use eco wood treatment, available at home depot.

Good luck.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

The 17 inch bar works great with a Langstroth hive - It will fit between the end bars on a frame, or you can put a screw in each end and make it 19" to fit on the rail. We've done both to get comb drawn out - regardless of length, the sloped sides and greater depth make drawn out top bar frames not interchangeable without some trimming. Don't get hung up on interchangability.

Viewing windows should be flush with the inside. We use Lexan (stronger than plexiglass) - sure there will be some wax built up on it but as it's nearly unbreakable, you avoid a crisis like what happens when you shatter the glass window with a hive tool.

Landing pads are on about 50% of our hives - I don't see an issue with omitting them.

We've gone to solid bottoms on our hives - the bees seem to be better able to regulate temperatures (summer and winter). Screen only lets in a lot of light and too much air (many of us associated it with absconding packages a few years ago). The bottom door over the screen is an alternative but be sure to clean it out regularly - hive debris gets trapped between the screen and solid surface and can become a breeding ground for moths and beetles.

The outside doesn't matter what you use - I've left the cedar raw, used a deck sealer, and painted.


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## Beau Diddly (Dec 28, 2015)

Great feedback, thank you. Since I'm building this from left over construction lumber, I can build it any way I want it. However, after I build it, I can't make it wider or deeper. This is why I want to do it right the first time and unfortunately, as a new guy I have no experience. I'll go with the 19" bars and I'll stick with the standard 42-45" length. Now I'm concerned about the inside dimensions, given the shape of the trapezoid, what interior dimension would y'all recommend? 

As for the window, Murphy is my best friend and he and his law are always with me. I'll end up breaking the glass despite careful attention so I'll go with the Lexan. Any suggestion on size of the window?


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

I'd just run the side walls at a 30 degree slope and calculate the bottom dimension from that. Length sounds fine - I like to have a light weight roof so I use luan clad in aluminum, without a lot of waste, that equates to a 48 inch outer length on the roof and about 46 over all on the length of the box.

We make our windows as big as possible with about a 2" frame around them (basically the observation side is a picture frame. The classic mistake is to make a smaller window centered up in the middle of the box - 95% of the activity is going on at the end where the entrance / brood nest is so the tighter to that end the better.


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## Beau Diddly (Dec 28, 2015)

ChuckReburn said:


> I'd just run the side walls at a 30 degree slope and calculate the bottom dimension from that.


I've seen plans with top bars overhanging the sides by 2" while others are flush, so the inside dimension has little to do with the top bar length. Some plans show the top of the hive width (inside dimension) from 12.5" to 19.5". I can easily come down at 30* for 12" and calculate the rest of the dimensions, but what should the inside dimension of the top of the hive be? As for the length, I'll keep it 42-45".


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Beau Diddly said:


> I've seen plans with top bars overhanging the sides by 2" while others are flush, so the inside dimension has little to do with the top bar length. Some plans show the top of the hive width (inside dimension) from 12.5" to 19.5". I can easily come down at 30* for 12" and calculate the rest of the dimensions, but what should the inside dimension of the top of the hive be? As for the length, I'll keep it 42-45".


I much prefer my bars to "sit on top" vs. "sit down in". Much easier to lift them up when things are sticky with propolis or a comb is attached. Here is a picture of my bars with their "ears".


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## Beau Diddly (Dec 28, 2015)

My apologies, I don't think I was being clear. I would like to have the options of using Lang bars, and upon the good advice here, I will build my bars at 19". However, I'm unclear as to how wide to build the hive (again, I've seen them from 12.5"-19.5"). What inside dimension of the hive would be most conducive to the 19" Lang bars?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Beau Diddly said:


> My apologies, I don't think I was being clear. I would like to have the options of using Lang bars, and upon the good advice here, I will build my bars at 19". However, I'm unclear as to how wide to build the hive (again, I've seen them from 12.5"-19.5"). What inside dimension of the hive would be most conducive to the 19" Lang bars?
> 
> View attachment 22486


By your photo, it looks like you will still be using the sloped sides. So that means you can't take your Lang frames out of your rectangle box and insert them in the topbar hive (although the shallow frames will fit). My TBH bars are 19" long and will fit inside of a Langstroth box. My hive is as deep as a "deep Lang", so can someone chime in with that exact dimension? (it's roughly 9" to 10" before the screen bottom) 

The reason I know this is that I will take my drawn comb out of the TBH and stick it in a 5 frame Lang nuc box for various reasons. I don't have to trim the comb. However, if I were to let the bees drawn comb on a TBH bar inside of a Lang, they would make it a rectangle shape and then I'd have to trim the wax to fit it back inside of the TBH.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Beau Diddly said:


> My apologies, I don't think I was being clear. I would like to have the options of using Lang bars, and upon the good advice here, I will build my bars at 19". However, I'm unclear as to how wide to build the hive (again, I've seen them from 12.5"-19.5"). What inside dimension of the hive would be most conducive to the 19" Lang bars?
> 
> View attachment 22486


As long as the Lang bars span the width any width under that will work. Cutting off the excess once it is transferred to the TBH is easy enough. Probably of more importance is the size of individual combs. A larger may be more suited for longer colder climates compared to milder locations. Combs with surface areas somewhere between what a medium to deep frame holds is a good range depending on your winters. 

For a direct transfer a 17.5" inside width will work but also remember you will need 3/8" spacers to close the gap between the Lang top bars as they are only 1" wide.

One other piece of advise that I think will be helpful is to not glue your hive together but rather only use decking screws. This way if you decide to change dimensions from the original you can reuse the wood without damaging perfectly good wood to match your new design.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

What I do is this. I make the sides from 1x12s and the bottom from a 1x8. If you rip a wedge at the edges of the bottoms and sides and assemble tight against each other you end up with no spaces for small hive beetles to hide on the bottom, and 19 inch bars work fine. I glue and nail it up, and I use a jig the pieces square during the glue up. I used to use nails, but now I use staples. Screws work fine, but I'm cheap and screws get expensive after a while.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

I made a couple" long Lang" hives, 42" long , by 20" wide, 6 years ago. that's afew frames shy of 3 deeps. They worked great with frames, the topbar is a lot for the bees to keep straight, (they didn't), so they can make a nice mess in there without frames. They were nice to work, every frame is right there, no bending, no lifting, but you'll need 2 people to move it, it's a heavy beast with a big colony in it. Put an entry-hole sized vent in the end, or it gets kinda swampy in cool weather. 
A Lang box is usually 19 7/8 to 20 long, it varies due to wood sizes. Frames are 19, and the shelf they sit on is 19 1/4, end to end. The opening is 18 3/16" usually. If you do go straight sides , place a shelf or they fall in very easily. Dont go tight, they get very hard to remove.


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## richr58 (Jul 23, 2014)

I use Michael Bush's design. Sooooo simple. look on his web site this will determine the inside dimensions. I over winter in wester Colorado. We get below zero for days.


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## Lonestarbees (Aug 8, 2013)

I had screens on the bottom of a few of mine and in winter I slid a piece of plywood under it to close it up. Well, like Chuck Reburn said, the bees can't clean out in between the screen and the wood, and when I took the plywood off in spring, there were wax moth larvae all on it. It was disgusting! And it explained why those two hives always seemed to be in a bad mood. I now just screw wood to the bottom and don't bother with screens.


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## Beau Diddly (Dec 28, 2015)

A follow-up question, I see some TBH with entrance in the bottom center, others I've seen are on the end, top or bottom. Nearly all are 3 holes, 1"-1.25" diameter. Any suggestions?


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## richr58 (Jul 23, 2014)

Beau Diddly said:


> A follow-up question, I see some TBH with entrance in the bottom center, others I've seen are on the end, top or bottom. Nearly all are 3 holes, 1"-1.25" diameter. Any suggestions?



Again, look at Michael Bush's design just a gap in the last top bar and the end. If you go to his web site he has a good drawing to show this. No holes, just a gap
the bees will regulate the opening to their specs


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

My first bar is only a half inch wide and sits on a finish nail that is on the inside of the hive. The finish nail allows me to move that bar left or right to adjust the opening to any size that I want. I like that entrance much better than the first few hives that I built with three holes drilled into the hive body.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I prefer them on the side toward the end. Keeps the rain out and the outer cover I use doesn't allow me to just leave a gap in the bars.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

shannonswyatt said:


> I prefer them on the side toward the end. Keeps the rain out and the outer cover I use doesn't allow me to just leave a gap in the bars.


That is where I put them on my first three hives. The only thing that I still like about that set up is that it is much nicer for viewing the activity at the entrance.


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