# in the market for a router and table and all the extras needed



## Treehopper (Dec 9, 2012)

Do you have a tablesaw?


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

I do have a table saw a decent one at that. I know I can use that, and I'm sure I will be.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Since you do have a tablesaw, the next question is, "_Do you have a dado set_?" 

Routers are fine tools, but for building boxes, I think that a dado set (used with a tablesaw, or perhaps a radial arm saw) is a better choice compared to a router. There are links here that you might find useful: http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-stacked-dado-for-cutting-box-joints-in-cedar


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

I do not have a dado set and that is also on my list .


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Since you do have a tablesaw, the next question is, "_Do you have a dado set_?"
> 
> Routers are fine tools, but for building boxes, I think that a dado set (used with a tablesaw, or perhaps a radial arm saw) is a better choice compared to a router. There are links here that you might find useful: http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-stacked-dado-for-cutting-box-joints-in-cedar


Thank you radar. I know that I can make an entire set up with a table saw, but want to do the tongue and groove cuts as well. Honestly, I've kind of always wanted a nice work shop and am just looking for a good excuse to by more stuff.


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## Galaxie (May 13, 2015)

I like my Bosch 1617EVS router which I use with a small Kreg PRS2100 router table. The router base has micro and macro adjustment so you can adjust the bit height in about 1/2" increments quickly and then fine tune it with a hex key from above the table. It also has soft-start and variable speed which is nice. The only thing I don't like is that the on-off switch is not sealed so dust can get in there. I found Rockler's price on that router high and ended up buying from a tool store on eBay if I remember correctly.

The Kreg table is well made, and I like the switch it comes with, but a bigger table would be better for hive bodies.


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

Galaxie,
Thank you for the info and thorough review.


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## bodosom (Dec 4, 2010)

trottet1 said:


> ...I already have my mind set on buying a router and table and learning how to use it, and I think building boxes and bottom boards would be a great project to start with.


I'm not a woodworker but I do have a router table, table saw and a chop saws. I strongly suggest if you're going to get a router table you 1) have an idea of enough work to keep it busy and 2) buy the best that you can barely afford. The skillful craftsman can make do with inferior tools but the those less accomplished will be defeated by them. I have a low end motor (PC 890 family), a Mast-R-Lift II, an Incra table, miter gauge and fence and a Kreg/Rockler table base. The lift is about $350 and the top is about $200 when ordered from Incra (which I did).

Peter Sieling <http://www.makingbeehives.com/products-page-2/beekeeping/the-hive-making-manual> is okay with dado sets but they're not for me. Almost anything you can do with one can be done better (if a bit slower) on your router table. By the way, if you're going to build woodenware Peter's book is great and if you live in NY state area his lumber yard is a convenient source of locally sourced hardwood.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I bought a ryobi router with the table for $100 and it's always done well on the projects where I have used it. The table came with a bunch of throat plates for different bits and has a dust collector on the fence. The fence however was so-so and I built another one with the existing hardware that came with the original fence. If I were to do it again, I would buy a plunge router that could take a bit with a 1/4" shank and it would have to be much more powerful. I can't think of a single instance where I've used my router/router table on woodenware for my hives though.

I would highly recommend getting a decent dado pack for your tablesaw, the Freud series is a good place to start.


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## Treehopper (Dec 9, 2012)

i have never found myself thinking "wow this (insert tool type) is way too powerful!" But I have found myself on the other end of the spectrum...once. Just my opinion.


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## dcaylor (Sep 22, 2014)

If you are going to go with router table I would get a fixed base router and attach to a quality lift. For hive bodies, you will want a decently powered router, but I would put more money in the lift. I also think you will find that you will get better results with the table saw and dado set. Everything that you will need to use the router for with regards to hive bodies can be done better on a table saw with a home made jig.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

If the budget is $600, if you buy quality you'll quickly exhaust it; but buying pays in the long run. You'll be purchasing in "increments" over the long run and you'll need to prioritize. (my whole shop was purchased an item or two per year). If I had to start over with only a table saw and had to prioritize, I'd buy the dado set next and make a sled. Next would be a 2 1/ hp plunge router and I'd see if my table saw had a router table attachment (you can use the saw's fence system). If you're going to do more than bee boxes you'll need to think about a drill press. To borrow a phrase from my significant other, now you accessorize. You'll end up with bits, sleds, miters, jig saws, etc and you'll expand into stand alone outer table, mortising bits, etc, etc; your "needs" will drive most of your accessories. I started with the basics and added the nice to have bells and whistles later.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Personally I prefer plunge routers even thou I do at least 95% of my router work in a table. Get a professional grade router with soft start and variable speed. I have a dewalt that is 20 years old and runs like new. You want a 1/2" and 1/4" chuck that comes standard with the tool. Your first bit should be a 1/2" spiral up cut solid carbide. You will use that bit about as much as all the rest of your bits combined. Figure on spending $200 just on bits for the router to get started. Anyone who thinks you can do everything on a saw you can do with a router simply is not a wood worker. Show me how to make a style and rail door on a saw. Or blind dados.

You also need a good stacked dado set for your saw. Anything less than about $75 today is junk.

Get one saw blade with a hook angle of either negative 5 degrees or at most 0 degrees for ripping. Ripping with a high hook angle is dangerous and besides does not give you a glue joint surface. That glue joint surface is important if you do not own a jointer or are not willing to learn how to use a hand plane properly.

Find someone who sharpens carbide bits and blades. Even I can not hand hone them adequately and I can sharpen most things myself including planer knives. Tools get dull and dull tools are dangerous.

A router is probably as dangerous as a table saw if not more dangerous. ALWAYS use push sticks that the bit will be buried in after the piece you are cutting finishes the cut. If the bit is above the top of your pusher it is only a matter of time until you will go to the emergency room to get sewed back together. Forget fancy fences on the router unless you are willing to go whole hog and buy an incra. A squared up 2X4 clamped to the table edges with C clamps works fine and you can bury most of the bit in the fence when you need to.

I have pushed tens of thousands of feet of hard woods thru saws and routers. You can never have too much power or weight in your tool.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I'm surprised that no one has suggested a shaper. They have bigger shanks, h.p. and better tables. I would look into a shaper, if I was dead set. Routers are OK, but I don't use mine all that much, mainly because of the lack of sharp precision cutters that go with the tool.

The only thing I have used the router for the bees was building frames and after that someone mentioned using a jointer and saw a video, looked alot faster.


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## jfmcree (Mar 10, 2014)

Getting equipment is probably the easiest part.

I suggest you take a woodworking class or two on how to use your equipment safely and properly. You can learn some great tips from skilled woodworkers that will be valuable in a lot of projects beyond beekeeping. I developed a deeper appreciation for woodworking through the classes I took. Of course, most important, you will learn how to keep the fingers attached. 

Good luck!

Jim.


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

rookie2531 said:


> I'm surprised that no one has suggested a shaper. They have bigger shanks, h.p. and better tables. I would look into a shaper, if I was dead set. Routers are OK, but I don't use mine all that much, mainly because of the lack of sharp precision cutters that go with the tool.
> 
> The only thing I have used the router for the bees was building frames and after that someone mentioned using a jointer and saw a video, looked alot faster.


Agreed: A router is good to have but the only time you will need it is if you forget to dado your frame perch(It happens, believe me) 

I use my heavy duty Bosch table saw for ripping and dados and my Delta shaper for my locking miter joint (great joint, I prefer this over dovetailed joints). Standard Stanley block plane (this will last you a lifetime) for breaking corners, Compound miter saw (one that will slide up to 12". You can purchase a radial arm saw but they take up to much room and will be a tool/junk rest) , and a orbital sander with vacuum attachment for sanding prior to paint. 

A good shaper wont be cheap but you may find one used or a smaller table top model. Set the locking miter cutter up once and just pull it out when needed.

Some photos of my joint on pg 9 here http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...or-Buy-your-Hive-Bodies&p=1353183#post1353183

You can purchase a cheap big store dado blade to start but I would buy a quality set. I have the Amana setup http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5257-complete-dado-sets-amana-tool.aspx

I would shop around. Rockler is expensive. Try Jet Tools or Grizzly tools

Buy your compressor, staple guns, and orbital sander from Harbor freight. Cheap Chinese tools that work well for the money 

http://www.zoro.com/stanley-plane-b...RguIQxstBzgtf5fCl9scDRoCE67w_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

http://www.harborfreight.com/#

http://www.grizzly.com/products/3-4-HP-Shaper/G0510Z


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

Makita 3612c = Great router!


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

Thank you everyone for contributing to the thread. I got a lot of good info and ideas. I will hold off making any purchases until after the holidays so I have some time to do more research. Thanks again all of you and Happy Holidays.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I ended up with this as my stand/router table combination. I think I paid 75.00 for it slightly used. Honestly, I use it far less for beekeeping woodenware than I thought I would. I use it more for high end custom cabinetry and woodworking. I bought another dedicated table saw with dado blade for woodenware.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Pretty sure the purpose of this thread is to give OP an excuse to buy a router so by all means...go buy yourself a router. 



Have built stacks of bee boxes and my comment on the subject is, "router? what router?".


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

Everyone is saying no router necessary for bee boxes. What about the tongue and groove bottom boards and hand holds?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

"D" style handholds can be cut with an ordinary portable circular saw (sometimes misidentified as a Skillsaw), using Cleo Hogan's jig & technique ....
http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/handhold-jig/


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Yes, if you have the cash and want a router, go buy one and find something to make with it. But, for beekeeping wood products I don't see a gain with a router over the table saw. I do have both and use them for business. My router is a porter cable 3 1/4 hp soft start variable speed equipped with both shank sizes, which fits most purposes. I also have provision to mount it under my delta unisaw extension table, which work's well as a router table. Enjoy your Tools and count your fingers before you begin.


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

Agree with DanielD. 
I don't use a router to build bee gear, but no shop is complete without a nice big plunge router and a nice little trim router. I use them quite a bit, enough to have worn out 3. Never have felt a desire to buy a dado blade though 
I just need to point out that I've bought many Bosch tools and they all fail catastrophically. Prematurely. 
Makita tools are on a roll these days. Hitachi is very good too.
I try to stay away from big box and especially HF. I don't appreciate HF's design ripoff business model.


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

DanielD said:


> Yes, if you have the cash and want a router, go buy one and find something to make with it. But, for beekeeping wood products I don't see a gain with a router over the table saw. I do have both and use them for business. My router is a porter cable 3 1/4 hp soft start variable speed equipped with both shank sizes, which fits most purposes. I also have provision to mount it under my delta unisaw extension table, which work's well as a router table. Enjoy your Tools and count your fingers before you begin.


 And when you're finished ...

I spent quite a few years working in cabinet shops , and I like Porter-Cable power tools . I don't know the model numbers , but they make a soft start variable speed 2 1/4 hp router with 1/2" and 1/4" collets . I usually made an extension table on the big table saw table to use as a router table . It can be on the off side and left set up , or anywhere you want and taken off when not in use . This gives you a much larger table surface to support your work , and to stack parts as you process them .


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## Treehopper (Dec 9, 2012)

I'll concur on Bosch routers...I make my own frames and my home made router table is indispensable.


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## crabbydad (Apr 29, 2012)

I made a jig to cut box joints with my router. I can cut them quickly and accurately. I use a dado on my tablesaw to cut the frame rest. I made a jig for this so I all I do is place it in the slot, clamp it down and set the height of the dado. I made Cleos Jig to cut my handholds with a circular saw. here are a few pics of my box joint jig. I have since added a cam quick release to hold the board.


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

Very cool crabbydad. And thanks for the info.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Nice Crabbydad! No doubt you could sell those by the boatload here. let me know if you want to sell one.

I own 3 tablesaws, 3 chop saws, 4 routers & a shaper & more. 
I jig most of my setups, I build 50-75 whatevers at a time. Almost finished w/65 new tops. 
I found an old Craftsman radial arm saw (Craigs List)that had been outside. turned it on bearings sounded great, gave the guy $25. spent 3 hours cleaning it up. Now it has a set of dado blades & it has a dedicated function however I need it. 
I saw an "Easy Angle" cut table on CL Rochester (forget the $) I have one for siding. I fit my Hitachi router to the sliding table, set it @ 90° and blazed through a pile of entrance reducers in 15 minutes. 
I found an old craftsman table saw, all steel, nice saw (CL Too!) old timer had it, it was pristine. got it for $140. it now has a dado set on it. 
Routers & shapers are my favorite shop tools. I made 36 bottom boards in 1/2 a day w/my shaper, & Table saw. 
If you have your mind made up to buy a router, I would vote for Porter Cable,.....or Bosch. Plunge router will give you more options. If I had to stick to the minimum set up for beeware. it would be 2 table saws. single blade & a dado set. Anything you need to build can be done on a table saw & a chop saw is great too
Terry C, I have the rousseau extension table for my Makita saw. It has the router set up (Porter Cable 96090 I think) . I love it for doing windows. very handy woodworking setup.


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## crabbydad (Apr 29, 2012)

I made a couple extras when I made it. I gave one to a member here to try out and let me know how it worked for him. after a couple months, he still hadn't used it, so I never heard back from him. It works great, and always setup. All I have to do is clamp it to the front of my table saw. I use a 1/2 straight carbide bit that I bought from home depot with a 1/2" bearing on top. I took the cam lock off the cheap half blind dovetail fixture that I have. I can cut a board in less than a minute. I never timed myself, but it is quick and the fitup is perfect.


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

Nice Crabbydad.
No blow out. Do you do this in 1 pass?


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## crabbydad (Apr 29, 2012)

I usually go back for a second pass


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## HillBilly2 (Jul 26, 2015)

Forget handholds. Put a 1x2 cleat across the ends. I can pick up and move a 60 lb super of honey OK, but I have to slide it enough to get under it if all it has is handholds. Just my opinion.


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## bodosom (Dec 4, 2010)

HillBilly2 said:


> Forget handholds.


Well handholds are nice to mount the cleat over -- gives you that handy extra bit of finger space -- but I don't think they're nice enough to bother cutting them even on a table.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

I have a table saw with a cheaper skil brand dado set. I used that part way through the year and found a Craftsman router and table on CL for $70.00. It is one of the were ones that sells for maybe $150.00 or so. The main reason i got it is that I was tired of switching blades on my table saw. I have a radial arm saw, I cut all my lengths. Then I set the table saw to rip, and then I have the router set to cut the end joints as well as the frame rests. The plans I had the box joint and the frame rests are the same size so once I get it set I make all the cuts without having to change anything. My tools aren't the best but the bees don't seem to mind. If I was building high end furniture I would buy better tools. I don't do tons of wood working so if I were to spend big money on tools it would be smarter to just buy unassembled boxes.


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