# What temp range and humidity for incubator queen cell finishing?



## WBVC

The title pretty much says it all.

What temperature and variation is advised for a queen cell incubator? What about humidity...best level?

Do you move them in immediately after capping and move the Queen cells to the mating nucs how long after that? 

Like many others I am thinking about Grafting and Queen rearing but have never done it. Have the incubator but no expertise what so ever.


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## drlonzo

Janne, you sound just backwards to me. Grafted but haven't used incubators. lol
Have you looked up Lauri's posts about what she does and uses for settings?

The idea behind the use of the incubator is to keep constant temperature control on the Queen cells so that they hatch at about the same time. In a hive they can be ignored at times by the bees and it takes longer for them to hatch out. Another good reason to use the incubator is to either give you control over the looks of your queens if you allow them to emerge in the incubator in cages, or to be able to run another graft through your cell starter quicker. 

If I remember correctly the temp in the incubator should be around 92 F and the humidity somewhere in the 40's, but don't quote me. I'll look for Lauri's info about it and post a link for the thread.

Here's one she started about her newest incubator set up.. http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...tor-set-up-Modified-slightly-looks-good-cheap


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## Flyer Jim

The people I know that raise lots of queens and taught me to graft only keep there cells in the incubator for the last day or two be for placing in a nuc.If you get the odd early queen you don't lose all the cells. 

These folks have been raising queens for 60-70 years used to sell queens to Canada so I kinda believe them.


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## WBVC

Thanks..I will check Lauri's post. 

Hopefully we will be able to try both cell finishers and the incubator. My daughter is keen to try Queen rearing so I brought in stuff she could play with.
Having never having done any Queen rearing it is all a learning curve.


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## Oldtimer

The temperature range is not less than 92 and not more than 96. However 94 to 95 is the most natural and gives best results.

When I was researching this I got different answers so ended up putting a probe in a brood nest to discover what bees actually do. The temperature in a natural brood nest wanders around a bit but rarely goes under 94 and rarely over 97. So I set the incubator at 95, it is above the minimum but a bit of safety margin before it hits maximum.

I put the cells in the day after capping to free up the cell raising hives.

I also experimented to see what would happen outside these temperature ranges, queens would develop as low as 89, but took longer and were not as robust. At 95, the queens develop the fastest and look very healthy when they hatch.

Humidity can vary quite a bit, I also have run a humidity probe in a brood nest and it moves around a lot so is presumably less important. My incubator runs at a minimum of 50% RH but where I live can be humid and humidity is often well above that, doesn't seem to matter too much. A very high humidity the queens emerge wet and distended, although doesn't seem to do any long term harm. Very dry humidity can kill cells, so I have found a minimum of 50% RH produces virgins that appear appropriately watered at hatching.

The other important thing to be aware of is not all thermometers can be trusted. At first I was confused by differing readings, till one day I went to buy a thermometer and as I looked at them noticed that they were not all giving the same temperature despite being right next to each other. After that, I discovered that even electronic controllers do not always give the correct temperature. The one I currently use reads around 2 degrees lower than what the actual temperature is. Because of all this, I periodically calibrate my gear with an actual hive. Whatever the temperature in the middle brood nest, has to be the right temperature, regardless of how the instrument is reading it. I also have a medical grade human thermometer that has tested exactly accurate, in the incubator as a second check.


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## WBVC

Thanks so much. Do you put a pan of water in your incubator to manage humidity?


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## drlonzo

Oldtimer - You kick butt.  So as Janne asks, how do you control humidity in your incubator? BTW.. Thank you for giving your info to help.


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## Oldtimer

For humidity I initially had a pan of water with a fan over it, and a humidity controller, if humidity got too low a fan came on blowing on the water. 

But turned out in practise this was not needed, the fan never came on. By playing with the size of water container the humidity could be adjusted within acceptable range without any electronic gadgets. Last season the humidity stayed OK once I had the right container, over the whole season, so now I don't even read humidity. There are a couple of fans in the incubator for air circulation and that ensures enough movement over the water container so humidity never drops too low. Too big a container and humidity can be too high and queens hatch distended so just had to use a fairly small container not too much surface area.


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## WBVC

So...the question is...what are the dimensions of the water container you use?


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## Oldtimer

Nothing complex, turned out this container was just right for this incubator. It's 4 inches wide & 4 inches high.

It sits in the corner of the incubator away from the heat source, and gets a very light breeze from the fans but not much.


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## drlonzo

Oldtimer - Next question is what is the size of your incubator internally? Physical inches or CM will do greatly appreciated.


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## Oldtimer

Internally it is 25 inches deep, length and breadth is the same as a 10 frame super so I can hang frames in it. 

Here is a picture, top down, it opens via a lid on the top which lifts off. It's an old picture, the pan is not for water it's for keeping direct heat off the polystyrene, you can see the water container bottom left.

The fans are very gentle ones to avoid an air blast on the cells, but enough to ensure thorough air circulation and no pockets of air at different temperatures.


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## beepro

OT, thanks for the good infos.
I have too many questions to ask.
Hope you have the time to answer them all. One day I hope to build one too.

Are these the computer fans?
What is the special light bulb's wattage?
What is the thickness of the foams? Are they all the same thickness?
If I use the 1 1/4" thick foam will that work for the insulation? Or should I double up the foam thickness?

Lastly, how are the different gadges (fans, thermometer, humidity sensor, light bulb, etc) all wired up?
Is there a central controller for all of these gadget to connect to?


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## Oldtimer

Yes they are 12 volt computer type fans there is a small transformer to run them. The lightbulb is a 50 watt reptile bulb it makes heat but no light. But I don't use that now, there is a heat element used in chicken egg incubators in it now.

The foam is 2 inch thick but pretty sure 1 1/4 would work. There may be a bit more heat loss so a larger watt heater may be needed.

How it's wired, the fans run continuously so the transformer that runs them is plugged straight into the mains. There is no humidity sensor now, and the power to the heat source is controlled by the PID controller pictured below, it plugs into the mains, has a temperature sensor in the incubator, and a power outlet to supply power to the heat source. The temperature pictured is Celsius, it does not read accurate, when it says 32.6 it gives a real temperature of 35 C which is 95 F. 

If you want to build an incubator it is a fairly simple process to glue some polystyrene together, and a very simple temperature control and heating unit can be found here-

http://incubatorwarehouse.com/48-watt-incukit-dc.html

I would have used this myself if I knew about it when I made my incubator. If you get this or a similar one be sure to get the proportional one not the straight on / off one.

Should add, I don't know everything about incubators others know more, I've only had this incubator around 2 years and to some extent it is still a work in progress.


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## sjj

Oldtimer said:


> ...The temperature pictured is Celsius, it does not read accurate, when it says 32.6 it gives a real temperature of 35 C which is 95 F. ...




It is not a faulty operation of a controller. 
One should do a deviation amendment.

In case of your D1S controller it is called Sensor Calibration, SC.
After pressing the SET key for 2 seconds you can enter the parameter setting mode. 
Take a manual and find a setting and function description table: 
PV=PV' + SC
SC = 35°- 32.6°C =2.4 

Change nothing if you do not understand what you are doing.


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## beepro

For 50 bucks it is not a bad deal for this incubator.
I have more foam than I can use so double up the thickness is not an issue. And
building a bigger incubator is possible too. These foam are 2' wide x 3' long.

Should I put the unit on the top, in the middle or at the bottom of the incubator? I just
try to find a way that is more efficient for the set up.


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## Oldtimer

sjj said:


> Change nothing if you do not understand what you are doing.


LOL that is the option I went with. 

I did get that there is a way to calibrate but the instructions are obviously translated by someone with English as a second language and are unintelligible, at least to me. For now I don't want to mess with it while it's in use, but in another 2 weeks then the season is over, so after that I will try exactly what you said Sjj, I'll update here how it goes, might even need to ask you some questions, it would be nice to get it properly calibrated.

Beepro the best place for the heat source is near the bottom, but good circulation is needed to ensure no hotspot at the top.


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## Oldtimer

Just found another incubator thread here it is.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?309111-Mobile-cell-incubator-kit


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## sjj

Oldtimer said:


> LOL that is the option I went with.


From “The How-To-Do-It book of Beekeeping” by Prof. Richard Taylor: 


"There are a few rules of thumb that are useful guides. 

One is that when you are confronted with some problem in the apiary and you do not know what to do, 

then do nothing. 

Matters are seldom made worse by doing nothing and are often made much worse by inept intervention."


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## WBVC

I like that you can simply hang a hive bar in it. The one I purchased is for reptiles...the hive frames do not fit in it.


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## Michael Bush

My target is 93 F. I don't have any way to measure humidity, I just put a jar lid in the incubator and keep it full of water.


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## beepro

Michael, are you using the set up with an incubator wiring too?
Or you go the traditional light bulb way?


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## squarepeg

lots of good info in this thread, many thanks to all for contributing. tomorrow will hopefully be my first grafting day of this year. i want to try process a round (20 cells) every week or so through our prime mating season.

i am a day ahead this week because of being off for vacation plus trying to accommodate the weather but the schedule i am going to attempt to follow is this:

thursday afternoons are for preparing the cloake board hive by swapping frames of capped brood and nurse bees from the lower chamber for frames of empty brood comb from the upper chamber. afterwards the the cloake board is slid in place to make the upper chamber queenless. i'm letting the grafting frame spend the night in the upper chamber so the bees will polish up the grafting cups. 

friday is grafting day and saturday is 'pull the cloake board out' day.

on the following thursday the prior week's grafts get pulled. this is their day 7 post grafting and they will finish their final 3 days in the incubator. on this day the cloake board hive gets prepared again for the next day's round of grafts.

this puts day 10 post grafting on sundays which works out good for most of us in terms of getting splits ready for placing the grafts.


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## jim lyon

I think 93 is a really good number at 9 days and I would add a degree or two if they were younger than that. My only caution here is that if you are holding cells over to the 11th day at that temp you are probably going to have a few pop overnight and they may well take out a few more before you get them out of there. We have settled on 89.5 on the final night and see few, if any live virgins the next morning (we are typically grafting mid to late afternoon). When you are doing a lot of them, the slightly cooler setting consistently seems to keep them safer. If you are doing hair roller cages then by all means leave them at 93.


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## squarepeg

many thanks jim. i've been 'dry running' the incubator and the controller is doing a really good job at not letting the temperature fluctuate. i've got 3 thermometers and they are all in agreement including the one that is built into the unit. the cells will go straight from the bar into roller cages and then into the incubator. i'm going to let those cages go with the cells for for the buyers transporting them home. is 70 degrees for a couple of hours ok while transporting them on day 10 or should we be thinking about fixing up a warm box?


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## jim lyon

squarepeg said:


> many thanks jim. i've been 'dry running' the incubator and the controller is doing a really good job at not letting the temperature fluctuate. i've got 3 thermometers and they are all in agreement including the one that is built into the unit. the cells will go straight from the bar into roller cages and then into the incubator. i'm going to let those cages go with the cells for for the buyers transporting them home. is 70 degrees for a couple of hours ok while transporting them on day 10 or should we be thinking about fixing up a warm box?


I wouldn't be comfortable with 70 degrees even on the 10th day though they would probably be fine for an hour or so. A microwaved sock full of rice or a bottle of warm water laid on the bottom of a small cooler (a flat sided half gallon juice bottle of warm water works awesome) is easy to do and pretty good insurance. At 10 days I like to remove them from the bars and gently lay them horizontally in a small glass bowl on top of one of one of those warming mediums.


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## squarepeg

got it! thanks again jim.


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## jim lyon

In rereading, if they have a good way of transporting them vertically in hair roller cages then I would certainly figure a way to keep them warm in that orientation. I lay them horizontally only for a short period of time as a convenience when directly installing them into nucs.


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## squarepeg

understood jim. i'll be recommending a small cooler with a warming medium as you suggested. a towel or something similar can be used to soft pack them in. travel time should only be 1-2 hours.


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## allglad

dang ..,distended is a word...now I can say my you look distended not fat.

this looks like good info otherwise also..heh



Oldtimer said:


> The temperature range is not less than 92 and not more than 96. However 94 to 95 is the most natural and gives best results.
> 
> When I was researching this I got different answers so ended up putting a probe in a brood nest to discover what bees actually do. The temperature in a natural brood nest wanders around a bit but rarely goes under 94 and rarely over 97. So I set the incubator at 95, it is above the minimum but a bit of safety margin before it hits maximum.
> 
> I put the cells in the day after capping to free up the cell raising hives.
> 
> I also experimented to see what would happen outside these temperature ranges, queens would develop as low as 89, but took longer and were not as robust. At 95, the queens develop the fastest and look very healthy when they hatch.
> 
> Humidity can vary quite a bit, I also have run a humidity probe in a brood nest and it moves around a lot so is presumably less important. My incubator runs at a minimum of 50% RH but where I live can be humid and humidity is often well above that, doesn't seem to matter too much. A very high humidity the queens emerge wet and distended, although doesn't seem to do any long term harm. Very dry humidity can kill cells, so I have found a minimum of 50% RH produces virgins that appear appropriately watered at hatching.
> 
> The other important thing to be aware of is not all thermometers can be trusted. At first I was confused by differing readings, till one day I went to buy a thermometer and as I looked at them noticed that they were not all giving the same temperature despite being right next to each other. After that, I discovered that even electronic controllers do not always give the correct temperature. The one I currently use reads around 2 degrees lower than what the actual temperature is. Because of all this, I periodically calibrate my gear with an actual hive. Whatever the temperature in the middle brood nest, has to be the right temperature, regardless of how the instrument is reading it. I also have a medical grade human thermometer that has tested exactly accurate, in the incubator as a second check.


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