# Some more Infrared hive images



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Thanks Snowbee, Incredibly interesting pictures. the heat loss at the joint and handhold are telling. Might be worth wrapping in cold climates after all. I guess quite a bit more heat escapes from the cluster than I ever realized, a little cold wind to sap that heat away and quite a bit of wasted energy buy the cluster.

Looking forward to the next round!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Joel said:


> Might be worth wrapping in cold climates after all. I guess quite a bit more heat escapes from the cluster than I ever realized,


Joel, I'm not sure if you winter in the north or not. But, if you remove the inner cover insulation on a wrapped hive, and place your hand on the inner cover, it will feel quite warm. You can tell if the colony is alive, and approximately where the cluster is located.

I've wrapped every colony and nuc I have for many years. These photos reinforce my belief that wrapping is beneficial in the north.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

> the heat loss at the joint and handhold are telling.


That is what I have been saying all along but I always got shouted down by people saying "they heat the cluster, not the hive". Heat loss my dear man, it's elementary thermodynamics 

Great pictures Swobee.

George-


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## Swobee (May 18, 2007)

OK, so I have to admit I've never even seen a hive insulation wrap, let alone used one. How do these keep the hive's need for ventilation going without sealing or over sealing a hive up? I assume the entire hive is not wrapped and sealed or moisture would become a problem. Tops are left to vent somehow, but insulation is added above a telescoping cover- correct? I need to learn more on this winter treatment of hives to satisfy my inner energy guru. 

As a home and commercial building energy auditor, I preach air seal and insulate, but not beyond extremes. Every home needs a minimum amount of ventilation depending on how many occupants, combustion appliances, smokers (tobacco, not meat), fireplaces, etc. it has. We can test a home's leakage to see if it meets minimum code ventilation guidelines or if there's room to seal out air infiltration more.

George, I have no means to argue either way, but I have a theory. The cluster is heated by the insects themselves- suttle movements, respiration, some necessary heat loss the Great Designer came up with, or a combination of these. Some heat is lost to the surroundings, whether it's masses of stored honey or hive woodenware and in turn, some heat is lost to the surroundings. 

Heat doesn't rise but warm air does. Heat goes to an area of lesser heat by: radiation through space, conduction by touching or convection from air movements & warmer air rising/ cooler air falling. I doubt the bees intentionally heat their hives, but they might do so indirectly by just giving off heat to their surroundings. Now, it sounds like I'm arguing against your thoughts, but trust me I'm neutral until it's proven one way or another. Someone mentioned using newspaper and other materials to help insulate the inside of the hive. Whatever is used, it has to breathe or wick moisture or at least not be so well sealed that it traps moisture in.


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## MadBowbee (Oct 10, 2006)

I like your pics, this could open up a lot of possibilities for research.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

George Fergusson said:


> That is what I have been saying all along but I always got shouted down by people saying "they heat the cluster, not the hive". Heat loss my dear man, it's elementary thermodynamics
> 
> George-


And you think heat escaping from a hive proves something? all it proves is that heat escapes from hives!

If I lived in a northern climate it might lead me to wrap my hives, If I didn't believe that cold does not kill bees and I do believe that or we would not hear stories of bees dying right next to stores. 

Some would argue that escaping heat was nothing more than good ventilation!

You have to do what works in your part of the world weather it's wrapping hives or leaving the bottoms open. Each beek will look at thoes pics and come up with a different approach to overwintering. It's real great data but proves nothing by itself.

Great pics snowbee thanks!


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

> And you think heat escaping from a hive proves something? all it proves is that heat escapes from hives!


What it proves is that a significant amount of heat generated by the bees from the consumption of honey to heat their cluster actually escapes from the cluster, radiates outward, heats the walls of the hive, and ultimately is lost to the outside. The bees of course need to consume more honey to generate more heat to replace that which is lost. It therefore follows that if you can reduce the amount of heat lost to the great outdoors then you reduce the amount of heat the bees need to generate to stay warm and hence their honey consumption is reduced.

If their honey consumption is reduced, they'll require less honey to get through the winter. Another way to look at it is that the honey the cluster is in contact with will last longer, perhaps long enough to get them through that cold spell that would have killed them because they were too cold to move to fresh stores.



> Some would argue that escaping heat was nothing more than good ventilation!


Ventilation? Out through the sidewalls of the hive?


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

George Fergusson said:


> If their honey consumption is reduced, they'll require less honey to get through the winter. Another way to look at it is that the honey the cluster is in contact with will last longer, perhaps long enough to get them through that cold spell that would have killed them because they were too cold to move to fresh stores.
> 
> I folllow the line of thinking and to me it is logical, but now we solve one problem and create another, moisture. Why not just leave enough on to do the job in the first place and not worry about it?
> 
> Ventilation? Out through the sidewalls of the hive?


Warm moisture laden air leaving the confined space or "venting" does not matter where it gets out it is still venting.

Have you seen the moisture absorbing roof and quilt system the Warre' hive uses there is a big discussion on www.biobees.com I think it could be the ansewr to the problem, it needs to be tested on Lang's and TBH's.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Some how I put a sentence in the middle of your quote, don't quite know how I screwed that up, just want everyone to be aware of it.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

George, I agree with the shouting down part. I think it comes down to whether the bees "intentionally" heat the hive or not. For me it matters little. If they benefit, they benefit.

I know heat retention does matter. Raising small nucs in the spring always do better when you adjust the small cluster to a smaller space. A few frames of bees will raise more brood and grow quicker in a 5 frame nuc, as opposed to a large 10 frame or a double hive.

Starting a TBH with a follower board shows better growth than without.

I also feel they plug up the hives late in the fall for a reason. If it were not for the beekeeper breaking the seals all the time, they would remain sealed, as the bees desire.

Tests and studies also show that bees prefer hives with bottom entrances. In fact, most swarms will not take residence in a swarm trap that has light coming in from the top. I think heat retention may play a part of this.

The warre hive take this into consideration from what I understand. I like some of the reasoning behind the style and concept. But its not like some of these same concepts would not apply to standard hives, if only beekeepers would understand the working relationship of the equipment they already have.

I would also say that most of the condensation problems I have seen over the years came down to, or was greatly increased by the beekeeper feeding syrup late in the fall. Open cells of sugar water add greatly to the moisture. I think its one of the worst things you can do to your bees.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Thanks for these incredibly interesting pictures. Also condolences to Aunt and Uncle.

Let me first say that I do wrap my hives with tar paper and have an insulated vent. box on top. Also use SBB that I keep open.

But I am doubting the heat escaping through the handholds. I think that might just be showing up like that because the wood is thinner there and it is taking a picture of the cluster.

Also very interested to see new pictures and find out if you have open SBB's.

Thanks again.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Bjorne I'm not shouting anyone down and I do not want to turn this thread into a contest. I agree with everything you posted. There was an article I read on apix info that had a study which showed lower temps caused by leaving the bottom screen open caused a reduction in brood rearing and an increase in mites, 

What I was wondering was weather the Warre' roof and quilt system would benifit a lang or a TBH with a few bars spaced open? The saw dust in the quilt mimicks the celing of a tree cavity absorbing the moisture. The bees close off what they want and it prevents a chimminey type effect retaning heat and wicking moisture. Sounds almost too good to be true. I was thinking of trying them on some long hives.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

MIKI said:


> Bjorne I'm not shouting anyone down and I do not want to turn this thread into a contest. I agree with everything you posted. There was an article I read on apix info that had a study which showed lower temps caused by leaving the bottom screen open caused a reduction in brood rearing and an increase in mites,
> 
> What I was wondering was weather the Warre' roof and quilt system would benifit a lang or a TBH with a few bars spaced open? The saw dust in the quilt mimicks the celing of a tree cavity absorbing the moisture. The bees close off what they want and it prevents a chimminey type effect retaning heat and wicking moisture. Sounds almost too good to be true. I was thinking of trying them on some long hives.


MIKI,
I think they would work great for TBH's.

I think they would also work on traditional lang's, except for those folks who seem to feel that unlimited hives with three or four supers of honey are somehow seen as a benefit. 

The benefits of the warre hive are what I have seen and said for awhile. That in a smaller hive setup, say two boxes, which has enough honey for survival, bees are in the top box come early spring, and no doubt benefit from trapped heat, which aids in brood rearing.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

> I think it comes down to whether the bees "intentionally" heat the hive or not. For me it matters little. If they benefit, they benefit.


Right Bjorn. I've certainly never said the bees intentionally heat the inside of the hive. Nonetheless, heat DOES escape from the cluster and heats the hive- a fair amount of heat as far as I can tell. The hive in turn radiates heat to the great outdoors. The amount of the heat loss from the cluster is directly related to the temperture differential between the inside of the cluster and the outside temperature. The greater the difference, the greater the heat loss. Reduce the temperature differential and you reduce the heat loss. Reduce the heat lost to the outside and you reduce the amount of heat the bees need to generate to stay warm. It therefore follows that increasing the R-value of the hive by wrapping for example keeps the hive interior warmer which reduces the heat lost from cluster and hence the amount of honey the bees need to get through the winter. For me, this is intuitive but I guess for a lot of people, it doesn't come easy.

Part of the confusion I think stems the common belief that "bees don't freeze to death." You hear it all the time, it's already been mentioned in this thread. Well, the fact of the matter is bees most certainly do freeze to death. Given the right set of the wrong circumstances (or the wrong set of right circumstances?) cold will kill bees off every time. I've seen small clusters sitting on open honey, quite dead. They didn't starve, they froze. They just lacked sufficient numbers to maintain a large enough cluster to survive the cold. I've seen good sized clusters sitting on capped honey that got soaked when the cover blew off in a winter ice storm- they were quite dead too. They didn't starve. They froze. I've seen clusters die in a hive full of honey. It was just too cold for them to break cluster and move to fresh stores. They froze. I've seen bees head out of the hive on cleansing flights on sunny but cold winter days. They don't make it far. I've put bees in my freezer. Killed `em 

George-


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>hence the amount of honey the bees need to get through the winter . . .

Only to a point. In a warm enviornment, bees actually consume MORE honey due to "extra" activity. Like me , the colder they are the less they move around.

Wunder if one (stupid beekeeper) ran out the night before it was going to get really cold, and insulated w/ say, 10" of foam  just during the "drop", if it would help w/ "cold staravtion"?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Should shoot a shot of a wrapped colony, then compair to an unwrapped hive. Pictures tell a thousand tales.

no bees dont heat the space inside of thier hives, all they are concerned about is the heat retention inside the cluster. By wrapping, we are able to help the hive conserve some of that spent heat into a looser cluster within the hive body. That goes a long way as they can break cluster easier to access some of that food a tighter cluster is unable to reach.

I have to wrap here, its alot of work but its the only way I can keep bees here other than moving everything indoors.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Ian, so your saying by wrapping, perhaps we are mimicking the environment that bees select naturally. Bees favor smaller cavities, bottom entrances, seal all the cracks with propolis, and benefit from trapped heat as opposed to larger full size hives.

You suggest that by wrapping, there are benefits to heat retention, and thus a looser cluster and easier access to stores. But is not those same benefits also what bees seek out naturally by choosing a small cavity, sealing the cracks preventing air/heat loss, and benefiting from retained heat?

You mention benefits of wrapping, and associated heat retention, after dismissing the bees action that show some of the same benefits.

I think the bees know what they are doing when they decide to close off a top entrance or leave it open. I think they have been programmed over thousands of years to favor smaller cavities. I think there is a reason bees move upward throughout the winter and end up located near the top of the hive come spring when brood can gain advantages to heat retention.

I think the bees care more than just "heating" the cluster. Their actions suggest otherwise.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Ian said:


> Should shoot a shot of a wrapped colony, then compair to an unwrapped hive. Pictures tell a thousand tales.
> 
> no bees dont heat the space inside of thier hives, all they are concerned about is the heat retention inside the cluster. By wrapping, we are able to help the hive conserve some of that spent heat into a looser cluster within the hive body. That goes a long way as they can break cluster easier to access some of that food a tighter cluster is unable to reach.
> 
> I have to wrap here, its alot of work but its the only way I can keep bees here other than moving everything indoors.


Ian In this scenario a loose cluster would equal more activity hance a faster consumption of stores with an increase of heat and moisture production. I have no doubt your experience has resulted in a system that works for you in your climate. What do you do to handle the moisture?

>It therefore follows that increasing the R-value of the hive by wrapping for example keeps the hive interior warmer which reduces the heat lost from cluster and hence the amount of honey the bees need to get through the winter. For me, this is intuitive but I guess for a lot of people, it doesn't come easy.<

This poses another question:
Do they use more stores in a loose or a tight cluster? 

Too cold and bees freeze next to UNused stores too active and they run out of stores and starve in early spring. When it's cold bees move slower this surly uses less. Warmer and they are more active and there is an increase in brood rearing which uses a tremendous amount of stores. If all the above statements are true, it would suggest that there must be an ideal overwintering temp where heat, consumption and moisture exist in an acceptable balance.


>Part of the confusion I think stems the common belief that "bees don't freeze to death." You hear it all the time, it's already been mentioned in this thread. Well, the fact of the matter is bees most certainly do freeze to death. Given the right set of the wrong circumstances (or the wrong set of right circumstances?) cold will kill bees off every time.<

I agree and am glad to put this one to rest!


My thinking is since the Warre' hive has a sawdust roof held in place by cloth or screen and according to Warre' beeks the bees close up exactly the right amount of space on that cloth, then they are controlling the amount of heat loss through the roof. Since we will never read bees minds and circumstances will change from hive to hive why not incorporate this type of roof and allow the bees to plan the winter themselves, seems to be a way to get as close to ideal as we possibly could without imposing what we think is best which just gives them another stressor to react to.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

> This poses another question:
> Do they use more stores in a loose or a tight cluster?


Clearly a brood rearing cluster is going to use more stores but I don't think a loose cluster necessarily translates into significantly increased honey consumption per se. I think it all depends on what they're doing; that in turn depends on what the bees think they should be doing given the time of year and not so much on whether we've provided them with a warmer or cooler hive. Is a colony of overwintering bees going to launch into full scale brood rearing in mid-winter simply because they can? My intuition says no but in practice I know that bees can sometimes make stupid (and fatal) decisions. Last winter was a good example where here in the Northeast USA and in other parts of the country we had unseasonably warm temperatures at the beginning of winter. Many people reported that their bees started to brood up in January or never really stopped brood rearing in the fall and ended up freezing to death trying to cover brood when winter finally set in and their stores ran out. My bees were out in force on New Years day, rummaging through our compost heap and collecting water. Then to top things off, winter hung around an extra month in the spring. Many colonies didn't make it through the winter though I didn't lose any- I guess my bees were not fooled by the weather. They were wrapped with tar paper and had insulating boards under the telescoping covers.



> If all the above statements are true, it would suggest that there must be an ideal overwintering temp where heat, consumption and moisture exist in an acceptable balance.


Yes. Cold enough to remind them it's winter but warm enough to allow them to still move within the hive to remain in contact with fresh stores. During an ideal Maine winter, the temperature would gradually drop to about 28° F and stay there for weeks on end, periodically rising to 40° for a day or two to allow for cleansing flights. Spring would arrive gradually but on schedule with temperatures steadily climbing. No late season snow storms or sudden temperature drops would be permitted 

George-


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Since everything in nature is temperature driven is it not safe to say brood rearing will increase? I have read papers written from George Imiere which say that if you have a long warm fall beware of mites getting a foot hold again after the last treatment due to increased brood rearing.

You would think that brood rearing could not increase that fast due to the lack of available comb to lay in after all the brood nest is mostly backfilled with honey

OR

As soon as the honey is consumed and the cells become available and the temps are right the queen will lay in them. The looser the cluster the more surface area they can warm. The bigger the brood nest.

So if one is trying to study up, there is much conflicting information. Is there no clear cut answer?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Ian In this scenario a loose cluster would equal more activity hance a faster consumption of stores with an increase of heat and moisture production. I have no doubt your experience has resulted in a system that works for you in your climate. What do you do to handle the moisture?

The key is to have an open upper enterence to allow moisture to escape. We get alot os snow here, upper enterences are needed to allow bee activity while the packs are still under snow. Ice and snow build up will never be a problem, as the escape of the warmth will always melt the enterences.

The other key to wrapping the hive to help conserve heat, it to make sure you have theym stored enough winter feed to handle a warmer than expected winter. 
Doesnt it seem backwards to be suggesting the bees consume more stores during a warm winter as compaired to a cold winter,. 
Feeding that extra surip never is a waste, for it will be used that spring if left over from winter. FEED FEED FEED!!


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

> Since everything in nature is temperature driven is it not safe to say brood rearing will increase?


I think the bees respond more to day length than they do to ambient temperature. It's not clear to me that a generally warmer hive would necessarily translate into untimely or inappropriate brood rearing. Then again, bees can and do make stupid and sometimes fatal decisions. Last winter, many colonies died in the Northeast US because of unseasonably warm early winter weather- they brooded up too fast, too early, and got caught when winter turned into winter. I didn't lose any, but I know people that did. My hives were wrapped with tarpaper and had an insulating board under the cover.

George-


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

A Western Massachusetts study found that hives wrapped in 15-lb tar paper consumed about half as much honey as unwrapped colonies. But, heavily wrapped hives (1” Styrofoam enclosed in black cardboard shells) consume only slightly less stores than unwrapped colonies. It is speculated that heavy insulation provides a warmer nest and thus allows more cluster activity w/ lower worker mortality resulting in a greater demand for stored honey, and may allow earlier spring buildup [ABJ 10/06, p863].


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## mintong (Apr 3, 2004)

Sounds like someone should try building some brood boxes out of Structural insulated panels and see what the heat loss/survival rate is.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Dave W said:


> A Western Massachusetts study found that hives wrapped in 15-lb tar paper consumed about half as much honey as unwrapped colonies. But, heavily wrapped hives (1” Styrofoam enclosed in black cardboard shells) consume only slightly less stores than unwrapped colonies. It is speculated that heavy insulation provides a warmer nest and thus allows more cluster activity w/ lower worker mortality resulting in a greater demand for stored honey, and may allow earlier spring buildup [ABJ 10/06, p863].


Yes it was after reading this study that I decided to wrap my hives.

I believe that the bees do consume more honey as it gets colder. Just like your home, the colder it is the higher the utility bills.

Edit: But if it is too comfy then they start rearing brood which results in more consumption too soon, especially when you get temps that go up and down like last year.

If you are in a constant deepfreeze environment like Ian then you can heavily insulate and they will still stay in cluster and avoid brood rearing. But if it is too nice then they start the brood rearing too soon and get hammered when they can't cover the brood (happened to several of my hives last year too that started too much brood too soon then couldn't cover it). Some pics of these unfortunate clusters on my web site).


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

David,
That, I believe hit the nail right on the head.


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## Paraplegic Racehorse (Jan 25, 2007)

So, I guess, ultimately the experiment to perform is to track external heat signature (IR imaging; trust the bees to maintain internal temps to their liking) and honey consumption in the following hive configurations:

1. Standard wood body. No extras. (control)
2. Standard wood body with insulation only at top.
3. Standard wood body "packed"
4. Standard wood body wrapped
5. Standard wood body packed & wrapped
6. Styro-body. No extras.
7. Styro-body wrapped.

Also, each configuration with an "open" type bottom, such as screen.

If Ontario or Alaska beeks can find a way to overwinter their colonies on similar quantities of honey as, say, Kentucky beeks, then life would be really swell. Having to leave near 60kg of honey on a hive that could, theoretically, do just find on 20kg is a crying shame.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Considering HFCS makes a whole lot less crying


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Foot steps in the snow*

I think this other image of the foot steps in the snow is really neat too...

http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb168/Midwest_photo/?action=view&current=HivesDec22021.jpg

Swobee, I know you "believe" in heat loss/transfer, but what do you think of this gravity stuff?

Thanks for sharing this.

This thread is a really good read.

Question: Wouldn't insulating just the top hive body reduce most of the heat loss and possibly reduce some of the drawbacks of fully insulated hives? 

And doesn't (*Black*) Tar Paper directly against the hive body result in a fairly rapid warming of the wood during the day?. Especially on a mild day.

I have no idea what the average trunk thickness of a "Honey Tree" might be; but it seems that bees might benefit if we could come close to replicating those qualities.

Some insulation sounds good, but wrapped in black doesn't seem right IMO.



Swobee said:


> http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb168/Midwest_photo/?action=view&current=HivesDec22016.jpg
> http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb168/Midwest_photo/?action=view&current=HivesDec22008-1.jpg
> http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb168/Midwest_photo/?action=view&current=HivesDec22010.jpg
> http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb168/Midwest_photo/?action=view&current=HivesDec22007-1.jpg
> ...


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