# Help needed with Dept. of Transpotation Requirments?



## VA_Beekeeper (Dec 29, 2015)

I need a bit of help figuring out what I need to transport bees across state lines for pollination contracts and such and do it legally.

I bought a F800 14ft flatbed. GVW 21000. Two axle/6 tires. No air brakes. No CDL needed. Will hold a load of 120 double deep hives on 4-way pallets.
Was politely told by a state trooper one night that I needed DOT#, med card and some other stuff because I want to move bees across state lines for commerce. He told me about air miles and other stuff that filtered out my ears because it was midnight. I'm in VA and we don't have same regulations that other states have. I got my DOT# and now I'm getting calls from companies who want to help me comply to federal laws for a fee.

So my question is: "What exactly do I need to comply with federal laws to drive a company truck across state lines with a load of bees?" Mainly looking for the proper paper work needed but will take all advice. I need to get all this straighten out before April 1. Thanks in advance for help.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

here are some links to discussions on the subject on beesource, what kind of plates do you have on it, agriculture plates seem to be the best.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?312275-Interstate-Hauling-of-equipment

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?310912-MAP-21

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?306225-Weight-scale-exemptions

I would try contacting your DOT in VA.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

It varies state by state. You only have to comply with your own state's laws. You will need DOT numbers regardless.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

VA_Beekeeper said:


> I need a bit of help figuring out what I need to transport bees across state lines for pollination contracts and such and do it legally.
> 
> I bought a F800 14ft flatbed. GVW 21000. Two axle/6 tires. No air brakes. No CDL needed. Will hold a load of 120 double deep hives on 4-way pallets.
> Was politely told by a state trooper one night that I needed DOT#, med card and some other stuff because I want to move bees across state lines for commerce. He told me about air miles and other stuff that filtered out my ears because it was midnight. I'm in VA and we don't have same regulations that other states have. I got my DOT# and now I'm getting calls from companies who want to help me comply to federal laws for a fee.
> ...


Other than a sign on each door with your company name you have everything you need already. But you might want a copy of a book of regulations I carry with me with a book mark to the page where it states "Beekeeper Exemption". USDOT Number, Regulation Book, and company name and phone number on the side of the truck should cover it. The thing is, inconsistency of knowledge among those with authority to pull you over.

With a truck that large you will have to stop at Weigh Stations.

Ignore those companies that call you. Deal only with Official Entities. They won't call you, they will mail you.

I'll try to remember to go get that book and tell you the name and page number. Unless wildbranch2007 beats me to it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> It varies state by state. You only have to comply with your own state's laws. You will need DOT numbers regardless.


Not if crossing State Lines. Then you need a USDOT Number. Or you get hassled less if you do.


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## VA_Beekeeper (Dec 29, 2015)

WildBranch, they are regular VA state truck plates. I didn't even think about getting farm use plates until months later. Thank you for the links.

Mark, I thought I was covered too but the last two phone calls made me think otherwise that's why I'm here asking. When I first registered the truck I asked several times at the DVM if I need a CDL, DOT#, etc. I kept getting "no" as an answer. State trooper in Kentucky said otherwise. Now, I got a letter from the FMCSA stating I need other stuff done to comply. I'll stop by DMV again today and ask for the book of regulations.

Thanks guys. I'll check back here later.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I don't think you can get the book at dmv. It is a small book sold at truck stops. federal regulations are coverd so your state dmv will not know what your talking about. most troopers also have no clue so its best to carry the book and show them in black and white. up by opal there are 2 truck stops but maybe you have one closer.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Exit 112(?) Hopewell, I think. Three truck stops there.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

VA_Beekeeper said:


> Now, I got a letter from the FMCSA stating I need other stuff done to comply. I'll stop by DMV again today and ask for the book of regulations.
> 
> Thanks guys. I'll check back here later.


the FMCSA is the organization to listen to, I had a link to all the information but they are moving it around again just to be confusing. The DMV in NY knew nothing about it, I had to contact our DOT., they were not very informative either. The FMCSA is the proper organization to listen to as they are the ones that wrote the laws, but even they say you have to be a lawyer to understand it. They also have a q and a somewhere that answers a lot of questions. The book I think Mark was talking about it Federal Motor Carrier Safety regulations pocketbook Green Book by J. J. Keller.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That's it, Mike.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Better truck stop closer to Fredericksburg in Ashland exit 92 they have the green book


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

I'm going through this now and was bombarded by calls and emails from many different outfits wanting to "help" for a fee after I registered the truck for interstate travel. You can do everything yourself, just like doing your taxes, if you want. Most of the outfits that contacted me sounded like they were snake oil salesmen so I opted to do everything myself. I picked up a Rand McNalley Motor Carrier version and it has all the phone numbers you need to contact each state to see what they require as you drive through their state. Seems easy enough. I leave Saturday for CA so we'll see how it goes. Also downloaded a free app that is legal for your log recording, got a medical card, DOT numbers names, required equipment, etc. Not hassle free but seems simple enough. The green book helps with rules for driving hours, etc but you can also get that info online. I'm driving a 450 diesel with a 12' bed and a 12,500 GVW. Bees are already there so I'm just hauling syrup and will pick up sub on my way. Truck weighed 14,900 yesterday on a local scale so I think I'm about ready; just a few smaller items to load that won't weigh more that a hundred pounds. Leave Saturday.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> I'm driving a 450 diesel with a 12' bed and a 12,500 GVW. Bees are already there so I'm just hauling syrup and will pick up sub on my way. Truck weighed 14,900 yesterday ...


OK, I don't have a truck anywhere near that big, but if the legal _Gross Vehicle Weight_ is 12,500 pounds, and the actual current loaded weight exceeds that by more than 2,000 lbs, then that sounds like a potential DOT problem to me.:lookout:


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## scokat (Apr 19, 2011)

needed:

DOT #
UCR paid yearly $75 for up to 2 trucks
CDL with medical can haul everything, Med card exempt, your bees only(under 2600lbs no cdl needed)
company name on side of truck with DOT #
fire extinguisher, warning triangles, extra fuses for your truck
under 26000 lbs no log book. (many people say no log book beekepers are exempt, $2500 fine if you are caught without log book if over 26000 lbs.


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## VA_Beekeeper (Dec 29, 2015)

Thanks guys. DMV was helpful in suggesting I change my plates to save money but other than telling me to go through the CDL driving manual, nothing. I'll drive down to the truck stop and pick up the book you guys mentioned. I pass these stops all the time. 
SCOKAT, I have DOT#, fire extinguisher, warning triangle, extra fuses, first aid kit, log book (because trooper said I needed it despite my GVW). Seems I just need to go through the safety inspection and I'm good. Thanks a lot guys.


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## pleasantvalley (May 22, 2014)

Alright, I know nothing about US driving laws, but curiosity led me to look up the book in question. Only the US Federal government could come up with enough regulation to call a 560 page book the "pocket edition"


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tenbears said:


> Better truck stop closer to Fredericksburg in Ashland exit 92 they have the green book


Is the Brown Church exit the one where the Flying J is located? What number is that? There used to be a Truck Stop at the Fredericksburg/Falmouth Exit off of 95.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> >> I'm driving a 450 diesel with a 12' bed and a 12,500 GVW. Bees are already there so I'm just hauling syrup and will pick up sub on my way. Truck weighed 14,900 yesterday ...
> 
> 
> OK, I don't have a truck anywhere near that big, but if the legal _Gross Vehicle Weight_ is 12,500 pounds, and the actual current loaded weight exceeds that by more than 2,000 lbs, then that sounds like a potential DOT problem to me.:lookout:


I think it's a typo, since an F-450, depending on the year it was made, has a GVWR of 16,000 or 16,500 lbs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

VA_Beekeeper said:


> Thanks guys. DMV was helpful in suggesting I change my plates to save money but other than telling me to go through the CDL driving manual, nothing. I'll drive down to the truck stop and pick up the book you guys mentioned. I pass these stops all the time.
> SCOKAT, I have DOT#, fire extinguisher, warning triangle, extra fuses, first aid kit, log book (because trooper said I needed it despite my GVW). Seems I just need to go through the safety inspection and I'm good. Thanks a lot guys.


As a beekeeper you are exempt from the log book. Also, better to not have one than to have one filled out incorrectly. So if you have one, learn how to fill it out and do so. 

What safety inspection?


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## scokat (Apr 19, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> As a beekeeper you are exempt from the log book. Also, better to not have one than to have one filled out incorrectly. So if you have one, learn how to fill it out and do so.
> 
> What safety inspection?



pull into a weight station over 26000gvw without a log book, beekeeper or not you will receive a paper present from the inspector and a red out of service tag. Beekeepers are exempt, certain requirements, log book over 26000gvw is not one of them.

initial safety inspection by DOT when you get your DOT#.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

When one gets their DOT number they begin an 18 month "New Entrant" program that lasts for 18 months.
Sometime during this period, usually early on, you will meet with the DOT folks and they will go over everything in detail:

https://cms.fmcsa.dot.gov/safety/new-entrant-safety-assurance-program

Also, remember; if you want MAP-21 exemptions to apply to you, your truck must be identified as a farm truck.
In Oregon, that means getting farm plates.
I know that other states have different ways of marking farm trucks, stickers etc... but for sure, you need to read the Map-21 rules as well as the DOT stuff and make sure your truck qualifies.
If your truck is under 26000gvw the MAP-21 exemptions apply ANYWHERE in the USA.


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## VA_Beekeeper (Dec 29, 2015)

Just picked up the green book. Exit 92 had it. Thank you.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

now not to confuse anything but if he adds a trailer to that 21,000gvw truck, what if anything will change for him??


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## VA_Beekeeper (Dec 29, 2015)

There was a great truck stop at exit 126 (my exit) but it was sold and went down hill. I found the book though three exits down.


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## VA_Beekeeper (Dec 29, 2015)

Letter from the FMCSA said that once validation has been completed, you will be contacted by the appropriate office to schedule a new entrant safety audit.
This might just be if I require motor carrier operating authority in addition to the USDOT number. I'll call them Monday if I can't figure it all out before then from their website. At least I have the book to ready through.


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## VA_Beekeeper (Dec 29, 2015)

HarryVanderpool, DMV told me this morning that farm plates are only good for 50 miles from farm but they suggest I change my plates at renewal for a different kind of plate that indicates it's for farm use and has no mile limit. It's cheaper too.
Don't know what MAP-21 is but I'll look into it. Truck is under 26000gvw.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

when you hook onto a trailer I believe they give you another 10,000 lbs as long as the trailer is certified for at least 10k.


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## VA_Beekeeper (Dec 29, 2015)

If that's true, that would be great because I'm looking at an 8 x 18 rated at 10,000. However, I was told by someone that if the combined weight was over 26,001 then it's CDL time. More homework.......


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I was told by a dot officer that your ok under 26k and a trailer can add 10k giving you up to36k without a cdl. we had a freightliner for 26k and he said I would be ok with 10k trailer as long as it has a certification. there is a lot of confusion about agr. trucks. that why always keep that green book in the cab. also the map21 gives more benefits for farmers but I'm not sure of all the details. If any doubt with cops tell them your ok because of map21. that will confuse them. good luck


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The _weight_ deciding line for a CDL (or not) driving a truck with trailer is Gross (_combined_) Weight Rating 26,001 pounds. Below is a summary provided by Washington State, but these requirements are standard across the USA.



> *Types of vehicles that require a CDL
> *You must have a commercial driver license (CDL) to drive any of the following vehicles:
> 
> * All single vehicles with a manufacturer’s weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more.
> ...


If you are not pulling a trailer, it is possible (assuming you meet other requirements) to get to 26,001 lbs without a CDL. If you are pulling a trailer, if the weight of the trailer + truck exceeds 26,001 you will need a CDL. Even if your _combined_ gross weight is less than 26,001 lbs, but your _trailer_ exceeds 10,000 lbs, you must get a CDL.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

with that map21 you can drive a tractor a certain distance across state lines if you haul agriculture. you have to dig deep to figure out the agr exemptions. I can go from ny to sc without a cdl if I have a beeyard every 150 miles.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

scokat said:


> pull into a weight station over 26000gvw without a log book, beekeeper or not you will receive a paper present from the inspector and a red out of service tag. Beekeepers are exempt, certain requirements, log book over 26000gvw is not one of them.
> 
> initial safety inspection by DOT when you get your DOT#.


Well what kind of foolish person would do that? lol

I had no inspection by DOT when I got my number. Perhaps that is something that only happens to you guys with semis. Not us with F-450s.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> now not to confuse anything but if he adds a trailer to that 21,000gvw truck, what if anything will change for him??


If he adds a trailer with a 5,000 lb GVWR he still doesn't need a CDL. A heavier trailer would push him over the 26,000 lb nonCDL limit.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

VA_Beekeeper said:


> HarryVanderpool, DMV told me this morning that farm plates are only good for 50 miles from farm but they suggest I change my plates at renewal for a different kind of plate that indicates it's for farm use and has no mile limit. It's cheaper too.
> Don't know what MAP-21 is but I'll look into it. Truck is under 26000gvw.


Does VA have Ag Plates, like NY does? Not Farm Plates, Agricultural Plates. Did you pay Tax when you bought the truck? In NY a vehicle purchased for agricultural use is not subject to taxation, unlike any other purchases other than food.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)




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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Definition of "covered Farm Vehicle" under MAP-21:

https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/faq/what-“covered-farm-vehicle”-cfv


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> >> I'm driving a 450 diesel with a 12' bed and a 12,500 GVW. Bees are already there so I'm just hauling syrup and will pick up sub on my way. Truck weighed 14,900 yesterday ...
> 
> 
> OK, I don't have a truck anywhere near that big, but if the legal _Gross Vehicle Weight_ is 12,500 pounds, and the actual current loaded weight exceeds that by more than 2,000 lbs, then that sounds like a potential DOT problem to me.:lookout:



Yep, my fingers were faster than my brain. My GVW is 16,500


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

beeware10 said:


> If any doubt with cops tell them your ok because of map21. that will confuse them. good luck


This is true. Also bring up the apiarian exemption to muddy the waters even more. Essentially, though, if you have DOT numbers, a sub 26,001 GVW vehicle with a current annual inspection and an up to date log book you should have most everything covered.


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

I opted not to get farm plates because I use the truck for personal use (It might be hard to explain why a ND farm truck was pulling a boat in Louisiana!) and this is the first year I did the DOT thing because this is the only year that I'll personally take care of my bees in CA (ND doesn't require a DOT number for intrastate). There is a new entrant program and I just got a call from the ND Highway Patrol. I have to undergo an inspection as a new entrant but it's not a physical inspection. The trooper told me I would get a letter soon telling me what I needed to do. Basically, they wait until you have had one interstate trip, then you submit your log, health card and other things that he said would be itemized in my letter but those were the 2 big items. I downloaded an app for my phone that will do my log and he said that was fine. He said the entire inspection could be done online. At least that's the word here.

I'm still confused as to when I need a trip permit when I'm just traveling through a state but I called all the potential states and understand their requirements except 2 (SD and NV). I have numbers for both in the Rand McNalley so I'll call when I'm on the road and buy what I need. Depending on the weather, I may not go through SD but I will go through NV. We'll see. Chip


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## delta valley farms (Aug 11, 2015)

You will find that the officers interpret the laws differently, they all vary and no matter what you will end up arguing points with these guys. So knowing the laws are imperative to keep from being fined. Make sure your UCR fees are paid on time, sometimes you will be pulled over and that will be all they will be looking for. Also your biannual update will need to be done every other year. And promptly. Never expect a faxed or mailed version of either will be handled, follow up by phone. Your check goes one way and papers the other. Whatever trailer you pull needs to be under 10k lbs. weight and brake issues will follow. Always run a log book, I repeat always when crossing state lines. Now if you begin to run in Florida, unless you have apportioned plates, you will need a fuel and trip permit which is only good for 10 days. $1000 fines add up quick in Florida. I run 15 trucks cross country and as a farm truck they view our rigs as a quick ticket. Keep good maintenance records and save your log books. You will go through an at office inspection after your first year.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Chip Euliss said:


> I opted not to get farm plates because I use the truck for personal use (It might be hard to explain why a ND farm truck was pulling a boat in Louisiana!) Chip


Chip, you should have axed for some advice first My sha. Why down in the bayou state da der boat behind a ND farm truck is an easy one. Why you are there to get some of those mean africianized bees hiding out in the swamp to cross breed with your winter loving ND bees, plain and simple. Fixing to improve that bee line in yankee land to a hybrid stock from the real south. So why is dat boat a skeeter bass rig officer, why plain simple my cha. Once i a while that bee colony is so bad, running fast is the only escape. And while I goes to church every sunday my friend, why lightning might strike me dead if I was to think I could run on water. Now let me open up the box of bees and show you what we gots in it. 

Why I would almost promise that would work on 80% of the state trooper in the bayou state. However, 20% of them and about 50% of the parish deputies would cuff and stuff you.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

During the messes after Hurricanes Katrina, Rita, and Ike I saw a state trooper arguing with some folks in federal vehicles on several occasions. First one trooper was pissed that they wouldn't show proof of insurance (federal vehicles carry no insurance as the gov. is self insured) but he apparently slept through that part of the academy. 

Then watched a young green trooper trying to chew some butt for a federal truck hauling fuel in for airboats doing search and rescue. They had more than the 120 gallon limit allowed, didn't have the placards, didn't have the permits, didn't have anything but fuel for the airboats. Then a colonel appeared and quickly pointed out that federal vehicles are exempt by law. Reminded folks that military trucks run the interstate frequently with fuel tanks that break that limit and no laws broken. Really nice easy going man. 

Got a buddy driving a military vehicle with no state license plate, the original ID numbers on the bumper act as a plate if registered correctly. He carries the state rule book in the glove compartment because he gets hassled about 2 times a year over the issue. 

Lots of rules on the books, hard for those guys in blue to know it all. So carry a copy.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

delta valley farms said:


> You will find that the officers interpret the laws differently, they all vary and no matter what you will end up arguing points with these guys. So knowing the laws are imperative to keep from being fined. Make sure your UCR fees are paid on time, sometimes you will be pulled over and that will be all they will be looking for. Also your biannual update will need to be done every other year. And promptly. Never expect a faxed or mailed version of either will be handled, follow up by phone. Your check goes one way and papers the other. Whatever trailer you pull needs to be under 10k lbs. weight and brake issues will follow. Always run a log book, I repeat always when crossing state lines. Now if you begin to run in Florida, unless you have apportioned plates, you will need a fuel and trip permit which is only good for 10 days. $1000 fines add up quick in Florida. I run 15 trucks cross country and as a farm truck they view our rigs as a quick ticket. Keep good maintenance records and save your log books. You will go through an at office inspection after your first year.


Is all this true for F-450s?


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Very true Pal! No problems ever till 2 summers ago and just barely in ND when I got pulled over for doing 6 miles over the limit pulling my boat back from Louisiana. Very polite young officer who then gave me a ticket. Gave him my registration and he asked why I was pulling a boat with a company truck. I told him I owned the company (but didn't say how SMALL it was) He said, Oh, and then wrote me a ticket for $5 (no fooling). He told me I could contest it in court if I wanted. I thanked him for keeping our roads safe, drove home and paid my fine!! I am now a better person!!!!


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Well what kind of foolish person would do that? lol
> 
> I had no inspection by DOT when I got my number. Perhaps that is something that only happens to you guys with semis. Not us with F-450s.


you have had yours for a while, but the way I read it, if your are using agri. plates like you are, you don't get the safety inspection.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> If he adds a trailer with a 5,000 lb GVWR he still doesn't need a CDL. A heavier trailer would push him over the 26,000 lb nonCDL limit.


I know, just wanted to make sure he knew. :shhhh:


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

He can run a 10k trailer and gross at 36k without a cdl. 
If your trailer isnt over 10k and truck not over 26 your good to go. If gvw is higher on either truck, trailer or both and class A needed. Our 550s run at 29k gcvwr w/o cdls.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

rak thanks, that's what I been trying to tell these guys. lol


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

RAK said:


> He can run a 10k trailer and gross at 36k without a cdl.
> If your trailer isnt over 10k and truck not over 26 your good to go. If gvw is higher on either truck, trailer or both and class A needed. Our 550s run at 29k gcvwr w/o cdls.


_UPDATE: see posts #54 and #55 for a more clear explanation of the WA phrasing below.
_
According to this page from the Washington State Dept of Licensing, the limit for COMBINED truck+trailer Gross Weight is 26,000 if you do not have a CDL.


> *Types of vehicles that require a CDL
> *You must have a commercial driver license (CDL) to drive any of the following vehicles:
> 
> * All single vehicles with a manufacturer’s weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more.
> ...


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

RAK said:


> Our 550s run at 29k gcvwr w/o cdls.


What one "gets away with" and what is legal are often two separate conversations.....


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

you have to dig deep sometimes to see the special exemptions given to farmers and beekeepers. for example the small green book with federal exemptions probably will not show up in a search but is there in black and white for someone taking the time. there is a whole section that gives exemptions to beekeepers hauling bees. just to look what applies to truckers give wrong information.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

the most important point rak brought up is the certification decal on your truck label on door jam. If your truck is built to handle over 26k now you need a cdl even if licensed for under 26k. also your trailer decal has to be rated for under 10k.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

There are some exceptions to some rules for drivers of Farm vehicles. See this page:
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/391.67

As you can see from the link, these exceptions relate to driver qualifications and vehicle record keeping. There is nothing there about _weight limits_ not applying to farmers or beekeepers.

Beekeepers are exempt from some rules in FMCSA Part 391, as you can see here:
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/391.2

Part 391 relates to driver qualifications and medical exams/cards. There is nothing there about _weight limits_ not applying to beekeepers.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

-All trailers with a manufacturer’s weight rating of 10,001 pounds or more,* and* a combined vehicles’ gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more.

Im sorry my trailer is rated at 9,900 and my truck is only 19,500 gvw which doesn't put me in the cdl category. There is a reason why the Combined gross comes in the same line as the trailers NOT in a separate line. Change the and to an Or and i would be illegal.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_RAK_ 's interpretation of the WA phrasing in post #54 appears to be correct. Here is different phrasing (but more clear) from Michigan:


> Who Needs a CDL?
> Any Michigan resident who intends to operate the following commercial vehicles is required to have a commercial driver license:
> Single Vehicles - Having a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR)* of 26,001 pounds or more.
> 
> ...


Virginia is in line with Michigan too: https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/drivers/cdl_class.html
Also, Indiana is similar: http://www.in.gov/dor/4396.htm

If the trailer is no more that 10,000 lbs, and the tow vehicle is no more than 26,000 lbs, then no CDL is required.

Of course, there are exceptions. If you are hauling Haz-Mat or more than 16 people, then a CDL is required.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

RAK said:


> -All trailers with a manufacturer’s weight rating of 10,001 pounds or more,* and* a combined vehicles’ gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more.
> 
> Im sorry my trailer is rated at 9,900 and my truck is only 19,500 gvw which doesn't put me in the cdl category. There is a reason why the Combined gross comes in the same line as the trailers NOT in a separate line. Change the and to an Or and i would be illegal.


I bet you will get an argument about that with a DOT inspector. Your combined weight is well over the 26,001 lb limit.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

HarryVanderpool said:


> What one "gets away with" and what is legal are often two separate conversations.....


Amen


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

mark do you remember the misinformation you had until I told you about the green dot book and the section that applied to beekeepers? Amen


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

It has nothing top do with weight or air brakes or anything else. It has to do with being engaged in interstate commerce. I owned a tractor and flat bed trailer which was plated for combined weight of 68 K, I did not need a CDL or DOT numbers because it was for personal use. As long as I had the side tagged with "not for hire" it was 100% legal.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beeware10 said:


> mark do you remember the misinformation you had until I told you about the green dot book and the section that applied to beekeepers? Amen


So you would maintain that as long as my trailer is under 10,000 lbs that I could have bought an F-650 instead of an F-450 and still not needed a CDL? Or any of the other things I don't need now?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

we go to empire farm days in Seneca falls every summer. there is a nys trooper stationed in waterloo that has a dot info booth there for farmers. I told him I had a freightliner truck licensed for 26k and asked him about a trailer. he said as long as it was certified for the 10k they give an extra 10k for a trailer giving me a total gross of 36k. I have never seen this in black and white but this guy is in charge of truck enforcement in that whole area. that's all he does is trucks. that's where I got the 36k gross from. the decal on door jam gives gross truck weight and added to trailer certified weight total your max gross weight. 36k is the max before cdl in this case. there are so many overlapping areas it hard to figure out.


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## Brian Suchan (Apr 6, 2005)

What about states that dont give a designated trailer weight?? What happens with the 26k and under then?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Mark, New York state also allows _non-CDL_ licenses to operate a 26,000 lb (or less) vehicle towing a 10,000 lb (or less) trailer. See license classes non-CDL C and D on this page:

http://dmv.ny.gov/forms/mv500c.pdf

CDL licenses in New York are Classes A, B & CDL-C

.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

this is where most problems start. this is general info. there are separate regulations for farmers. throw in the green dot book and add map21 new rules and ya go crazy.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Did you look at the link, _Beeware10_? The non-CDL Class C license in NY _*is*_ a farm license. Read the link.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

Its just a general page that shows in the basic drivers manual. the class c and d have the same benefits. local farmers can haul up to 80k here in upstate ny without a cdl. says nothing about that. as I keep saying ya have to dig deep for details.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I'm very confused.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

and they thought beekeeping was tough. lol


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I have (now I'll say I had) my eye on a '92 F600 GVW 21k lbs.
Maybe I'll wait.


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## Sweet to the Soul (Sep 1, 2010)

Everyone just needs to check their stated CDL requirements.

In Ohio for example you can have 26k truck hauling 10k trailer with no CDL. For a total of 36k.

Looks at flow chart on page 5
http://www.publicsafety.ohio.gov/links/HSY7605.pdf

The catch is that I from what I have read the Map21 farm exemptions for farm trucks out of state only apply for under 26k. Says nothing about Power unit 26k, plus trailer 10k. So I think I would lose all my Map21 exemptions.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

thanks for the ohio flow chart. all states should have one this simple.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Mark, your absolutely right. You should have bought a 650 or a freight liner fl70. Basically beekeepers such as yourself and Harry end up buying a 450 while paying the same as a new freight liner or 550 would cost because you misunderstand the law. Then I get called being illegal. I run in WA, OR, CA, ID, MT at 29k and have no issues. No offense but some know it all beekeepers are limiting themselves on weight they could be hauling legally because of your lack of knowledge.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

beeware10 said:


> we go to empire farm days in Seneca falls every summer. there is a nys trooper stationed in waterloo that has a dot info booth there for farmers.


did you tell the trooper that you go out of state and cross all the southern states borders?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

yes and he said I was ok out of state.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

from the map-21 exemptions, now if you are under map-21 means you are running ag plates, and the state you are in has to have adopted it, NY has.



> • [From § 390.39] Is not transporting hazardous materials that require placarding, and
> Either
> o Has a GVW or GVWR (whichever is greater) of 26,001 or less, in which case the CFV exemptions in § 390.39 apply anywhere in the United States, or
> o Has a GVW or GVWR (whichever is greater) of more than 26,001 pounds and travels within the State where it is registered or, if traveling out of the State where it is registered, stays within a 150 air miles of the owner or operator’s farm or


no mention of a trailer but the 26001 is anywhere in the usa if under it, over it only 150 miles.

under the questions section of map-21
https://search.usa.gov/search?query...sa.gov/search?affiliate=dot-fmcsa&query=[key]

and you have to bee careful with the beekeeper thingy, those exemptions only apply when carrying bees, not running empty or carrying honey and I still have never got clarification as to if it only applies during planting season in each state. 

but since I don't go this high in weight I really have not paid attention to it. :lookout:

now why reading what the state allows can be dangerous



> (d) Exception for farmers, firefighters, emergency response vehicle drivers, and drivers removing snow and ice. A State may, at its discretion, exempt individuals identified in paragraphs (d)(1), (d)(2), and (d)(3) of this section from the requirements of this part. The use of this waiver is limited to the driver's home State unless there is a reciprocity agreement with adjoining States.
> 
> (1) Operators of a farm vehicle which is:
> 
> ...


 all the stuff you read at the state level may only be legal within your state.

then stuffed under applicability, with a small h at the end of the cdl rules they have this



> (h) Exception for drivers of “covered farm vehicles.” The rules in this part do not apply to a driver of a “covered farm vehicle,” as defined in § 390.5 of this chapter.


 but pray tell what does the small letter h represent in the bigger picture of the entire rule?

here is the only thing I would take as gospel, and if contacting them I would see if I could get it in writing with someones signature on it.



> (11) Who should I contact if I have further questions?
> For questions regarding intrastate regulations, contact the primary CMV safety enforcement Agency in the relevant State. This is usually a division of the State Police, Highway Patrol, Department of Public Safety, or Department of Transportation.
> For interstate questions, contact FMCSA’s nearest Division Office (one or more are located in each State). Contact information for these offices is available at www.fmcsa.dot.gov/about/contact/offices/displayfieldroster.aspx .


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

RAK said:


> Mark, your absolutely right. You should have bought a 650 or a freight liner fl70. Basically beekeepers such as yourself and Harry end up buying a 450 while paying the same as a new freight liner or 550 would cost because you misunderstand the law. Then I get called being illegal. I run in WA, OR, CA, ID, MT at 29k and have no issues. No offense but some know it all beekeepers are limiting themselves on weight they could be hauling legally because of your lack of knowledge.


Well, shoooooot. Those dawg gone commercial beekeepers on Facebook let me down.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

to me the words out of the head of dot in this area takes priority vs some ones interpretation. your understanding that the truck has to be loaded with bees both ways make no sense at all. simply cannot be right.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

one other thing to be careful of when you are looking at all this junk on the federal site, they don't date all of the stuff, so you can get the old data, this is from current regs, and should explain the trailer question, maybe.



> Section 391.2(c) provides an exception from all of Part 391, apart from the rules on texting, for a “farm vehicle driver” (as defined in § 390.5) of a straight truck. On the other hand, Sec. 32934(a)(3) of MAP-21 exempts CFV drivers only from “any requirement relating to medical certificates,” which corresponds to Subpart E of Part 391. Section 391.2(c) is substantially broader than Sec. 32934 and is therefore being retained. Many “farm vehicle drivers” of straight trucks could qualify as CFV drivers, and vice versa, but the two provisions are not identical. For example, drivers of articulated CFVs or CFVs operating beyond a radius of 150 air-miles from the home farm or ranch would not qualify for the exemption in § 391.2(c) because only straight trucks are eligible and then only when used within 150 air-miles of the farmer's farm.


the way I read this only straight trucks outside the 150 miles, but then again I have a printout circled in my pickup that lets me outside the 150 miles legally but I'm under the 26,001 lb limit. :scratch:

https://www.federalregister.gov/art...97/transportation-of-agricultural-commodities


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

the last few years interstate rules have become more uniform. the ohio flow chart in post 70 shows that a truck under 26k with a trailer under 10 k do not need a cdl. for example ny used to have a 18k limit without a cdl. some states were 26k so they made it nationwide for 26k which raised ny.


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## scokat (Apr 19, 2011)

My head hurts... i enforced these laws for 30 yrs and my head hurts....i need more coffee


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So yer da guy.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

beeware10 said:


> to me the words out of the head of dot in this area takes priority vs some ones interpretation. your understanding that the truck has to be loaded with bees both ways make no sense at all. simply cannot be right.


you can take the word of any one you want, as the fed regs say



> (11) Who should I contact if I have further questions?
> For questions regarding intrastate regulations, contact the primary CMV safety enforcement Agency in the relevant State. This is usually a division of the State Police, Highway Patrol, Department of Public Safety, or Department of Transportation.
> For interstate questions, contact FMCSA’s nearest Division Office (one or more are located in each State). Contact information for these offices is available at http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/about/conta...eldroster.aspx


the feds do the interstate stuff not the state, so they should know best. but whomever I got info from, I would get a pointer to the regs where it says it's legal. IMHO

if I was running 26,000 with a trailer, which i'm not, this is who I would contact, but that's just me


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

scokat said:


> My head hurts... i enforced these laws for 30 yrs and my head hurts....i need more coffee


went back to one of the previous threads about this, and this was the reply previously about the trailer question from scokat.



scokat said:


> get ag plates in ny and you are covered. you notice in the new map-21 it states " GVW or GVWR" it does not state "GCVWR" so if your driving a truck and trailer, even articulated, over 26001, you actually should have a CDL(just to be safe and actually be qualified and know how to handle that weight) but are exempt hours of service with AG plates, anywhere in the US. Farm plates are restricted to 150 miles. I spoke at length with a DOT supervisor and they are not at all happy with the wording, and also the ability now to sleep in your truck. So like me with my pickup and gooseneck full of hives, I'm over 26000, I have a CDL, pull into weigh stations, and am exempt hours of service, although i usually stop to rest, not as young as i was.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

beeware10 said:


> to me the words out of the head of dot in this area takes priority vs some ones interpretation. your understanding that the truck has to be loaded with bees both ways make no sense at all. simply cannot be right.


since the feds moved all the links I had set up for all this stuff, it's hard to find again. here is one about the exemptions during growing season.



> 1) The agriculture exception in §395.1(k) for “drivers transporting agricultural commodities or farm
> supplies for agricultural purposes” provides in part that the hours of service regulations “shall
> not apply to drivers transporting agricultural commodities or farm supplies for agricultural
> purposes...” The terms “agricultural commodities or farm supplies for agricultural purposes”
> ...


 and this is after map-21




> 2) Agricultural commodity is defined as an agricultural, horticultural, viticultural, silvicultural, or
> vegetable product, bees and honey, planting seed, cottonseed, rice, livestock or a livestock
> product, or poultry or a poultry product that is produced in this state, either in its natural form or
> as processed by the producer, including wood chips. The term does not include a product which
> has been stored in a facility not owned by its producer.


 the exception applies to bees and honey, not to forklifts or empty trucks.

but the following link from the fed after map-21 says
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/sites/fmcsa...ommodities.pdf


> Section 391.2(b) exempts from the
> rules in Part 391 the driver of a CMV
> controlled and operated by a beekeeper
> engaged in the seasonal transportationof bees. The exemption does not apply
> to a beekeeper’s transportation of honey.


 or anything else it would seem 

as to the trailer



> If the CFV has a gross
> vehicle weight (GVW) or gross vehicle
> weight rating (GVWR), whichever is
> greater, of 26,001 pounds or less, it may
> ...


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## Thermwood (May 29, 2010)

If your truck has commercial plates and is licensed for 26,000 pounds that is the GCVWR. Max weight for your truck AND your trailer. A 550 has a GVWR of 19,500 pounds, so if You are pulling a trailer with a 10,000 GVWR you still can not go over 26,000 pounds. If you pull a trailer with a 12,000 GVWR and are still UNDER 26,001 you will need a CDL. It is all about RATINGS, not actual weight.

I believe everyone still needs to run a logbook when over 100 miles from home, but are exempt from HOS rules when transporting bees or other stuff bee related. HOS rules state you may drive 11 hours of a 14 hour time period followed by 10 consecutive hours off duty, if you had to stop bees would die.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

thermwood our trucks do not run commercial plates. they are agricultural. log books are not required.

wildwood ya keep talking about the feds. the weigh stations follow federal guidelines to get their federal money but are manned by officers in that state. maybe I have had a sheltered life but have never seen a fed uniform in them. never heard of such a thing. the state your in provides their people for regulation.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

beeware10 said:


> thermwood our trucks do not run commercial plates. they are agricultural. log books are not required.
> 
> wildwood ya keep talking about the feds. the weigh stations follow federal guidelines to get their federal money but are manned by officers in that state. maybe I have had a sheltered life but have never seen a fed uniform in them. never heard of such a thing. the state your in provides their people for regulation.


but it's the federal law they follow, and once out side of NY, those cops didn't talk to you, but what ever works for you.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> but it's the federal law they follow, and once out side of NY, those cops didn't talk to you, but what ever works for you.


Mike, that is a curious thing. If each State follows Federal Law, why is there variation from State to State along Interstate Highways? Like 95.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Mike, that is a curious thing. If each State follows Federal Law, why is there variation from State to State along Interstate Highways? Like 95.


because the states can interpret the laws different just like beware10 and I do. I can't remember the exact wording that was used when doing my rereading yesterday, but the states make the intrastate part of the law's, and they can make them more or less restrictive. now don't go asking me how if your driving interstate and the state has different intrastate laws how that affects you. I have studied the laws of the three states I go to and that's enough for me.

from one of the docs I looked at yesterday.



> The MAP-21 provisions do not pre-empt State laws, with the exception of the “covered farm vehicle” driver exemption from the drug and alcohol testing rules. However, under the Motor Carrier Safety Assistance Program (MCSAP), States receiving MCSAP grants (currently all States) are required to adopt compatible rules for interstate and intrastate operation of commercial motor vehicles (CMVs). These changes must be made within 3 years of the effective date of this rule.
> The amendment exempting drivers of “covered farm vehicles” from the drug and alcohol testing regulations [49 CFR 382.103(d)(4)] preempts inconsistent State laws or regulations, effective immediately. States may no longer require drug or alcohol tests of CDL holders who operate such vehicles, but may continue to enforce State laws prohibiting operations while impaired by drugs or alcohol. However, CDL holders remain subject to drug and alcohol testing when they drive CMVs that do not qualify as “covered farm vehicles.”
> Many States have procedures in place to “automatically” change their State regulations whenever a revision to the FMCSRs occurs. For others, the need for administrative and/or legislative action involves delays. Therefore, it is necessary to contact the primary CMV safety enforcement agency in a particular State to determine when and how these FMCSR changes impact intrastate (within one State) transportation. That agency is usually a division of the State Police, Highway Patrol, Department of Public Safety, or Department of Transportation.


note where it says CMV safety enforcement agency in a particular State to determine when and how these FMCSR changes impact intrastate (within one State) transportation. 

they say intrastate laws not interstate laws.

also
States receiving MCSAP grants (currently all States) are required to adopt compatible rules for interstate and intrastate operation of commercial motor vehicles (CMVs).


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> If each State follows Federal Law, why is there variation from State to State along Interstate Highways? Like 95.


LEOs do not always interpret and enforce the law correctly, that is why there is an appeals process. It is also one of the reasons that LEOs like out of staters, it is unlikely that they will appeal if they are far from home.


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## Thermwood (May 29, 2010)

Beware10 would you mind showing me where map-21 regs say cfvs are excepted from federal gross weight regs?

I understand that some states have their own regs for intrastate commerce but I thought we were discussing interstate for those of us that travel across other states to get to California. If so you are under federal jurisdiction.

We have a 450 with gvwr of 14k, gcvwr of 40,400, and pull a trailer with gvwr of 26k, we run apportioned plates and are licensed for 40k.

For those that do not run apportioned plates do you purchase trip permits for every state you drive through?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Got your IFTA sticker, Thermwood?


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## Thermwood (May 29, 2010)

been doing IFTA for over 3 years now. How about you sqkcrk?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not required for my size truck.


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