# Is Swarming a Goal?



## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

It is the only natural way a colony can reproduce. they expand to a new area to start a new home or take over an old one. If it was not for swarming every hive that died would not be replaced. this would result in the species dying.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I'm with you on this one. 
I think healthy hives just build up like crazy, making swarming a necessity, not a goal.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It is a fact that Honey bees swarm.
It is a fact that by doing so they reproduce themselves and spread their genes into new areas.
It is also a fact that the reproductive organs of a colony of bees are the queen and the drones and that a mated queen replenishes the "cells" of the "superorganism", known as the colony.

When you use the term "goal", it may seem as though you think or believe that any of what a colony of bees does is done by thinking and planning on the colony's part. I don't know that that is so. I doubt it. Unlike the descision making done when a new cavity is picked.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Animals which do not reproduce effectively go extinct. In bees and other social insects, swarming is that reproduction. Every hive will die eventually. Every queen has a limited lifetime. Swarming is necessary not only to make up losses in the habitat, but to expand to new habitats and to navigate the gauntlet of natural selection.


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## rharlow (Mar 20, 2011)

I understand swarming, understand it is a way for the colony to reproduce. But does the colony's actions revolve around the goal to swarm or does stimuli, (in the form of a number of things like bad queen, broodnest confinement, etc), spur the colony into action. I've read some of Seeley's stuff on how the swarm "decides" on where to locate its new home, but I can't find info on if a colony is always planning on swarming, or if it's a reaction to a set of circumstances.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Think of swarming as having offspring. A species that doesn't have offspring becomes extinct. It is a goal to reproduce so swarming is a goal.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Chip, you seem to be asking, what stimulates a colony to swarm when it does? Is that right?


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## rharlow (Mar 20, 2011)

not really. My question is probably more philosophical. I understood that a colony would swarm if the right circumstances existed, but then in my reading, I came across a philosophy that was stating that a colony is always preparing to swarm because it is their goal to swarm. This was counter to how I had thought. My thinking was that if you removed/prevented the circumstances for a swarm, then you would indeed prevent swarming. So, if managed properly, most colonies will not swarm (there's always the exception).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Where did you read what you read? Which book? Certainly they are not always preparing to swarm. What would be the up side of doing so this time of year? The environment, stimulii and food availability must be right.

Yes, if you remove or prevented the circumstances you should be able to keep them from swarming.


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## rharlow (Mar 20, 2011)

probably shouldn't have said always 

When not thinking about swarming, my read is they're in survival mode, or storing for next opportunity to swarm.

My recent reading has not been in any books, but has been articles and posts related to checkerboarding.

not doing a great job of making myself clear, sorry


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

you may do well by reading a book vs posts. most books are real life and some posts are unproven theorys.


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## BeeMan_2010 (Jan 7, 2010)

rharlow said:


> not really. My question is probably more philosophical. I understood that a colony would swarm if the right circumstances existed, but then in my reading, I came across a philosophy that was stating that a colony is always preparing to swarm because it is their goal to swarm. This was counter to how I had thought. My thinking was that if you removed/prevented the circumstances for a swarm, then you would indeed prevent swarming. So, if managed properly, most colonies will not swarm (there's always the exception).


Chip you could write a book on the pro and con on this, but? If circumstances is the main issue of the swarm, which it is and there are more than one. If it is not the goal of bees to swarm to reproduce what do you do to explain the different swarm tendency of the different bee races " Italian, Russian, and AHB" all three of these have different tendency. Some just swarm more than others, they don't have to be congested they just swarm "to reproduce the Hive"


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

I think instinct would be a better choice of words. All critters instinctually want to reproduce it's not a goal in the sense that they chose to reproduce like humans do. It’s hard wired into the genetic nature of that particular species.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

walt wright's manuscript discusses the activities of the bees coming out of winter and leading up to swarming as being purposely geared toward producing a reproductive swarm during the peak nectar flow. his observations would lead one to conclude these activities are "goal" oriented. an overcrowding swarm later in the season appears to be for the purpose of protecting that individual colony.


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

I think they are like a complex state machine. Their goal depends on their current state. Various things make them change state. Seems like a reasonable way for a computer scientist to think about it. We can sometimes interfere with a state change.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Need to sign up for this thread.
Walt


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

You can do it without posting. Thread Tools at the top.

I'd like to amend my view on this thread. Swarming is a goal for bees the same as breathing, eating, and procreating is for every animal. Everything dies, sooner or later, and the point is to get your genes into the next generation and to get more of them in than what is lost when you die.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Walt: http://www.beesource.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb3_user_profile#faq_vb3_subscriptions


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Chip,

Goals are conscious objectives, I believe that swarming is not a conscious objective of honey bees. However, swarming is the only natural way for honey bee colonies to reproduce, so without the swarming mechanism honey bees would eventually (possibly within a few years), die out.

So, conscious goal or not, swarming is an essential occurrence for honey bee continued existence.


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Hello all,

An article written by me that is found in the Walt Wright section of the POV details my views on this subject.

As stated in the article, I'll repeat here again that I'm not a scientist. My thinking on this subject is just that: my thinking. That thinking is based on a lot of observation, but no real science.

I do believe that the constant, year-round goal of the honeybee colony is to prepare to cast a reproductive swarm in the late winter or early spring of the next year. The word "goal" may not be the best word to use, but it makes sense to me so I used it. Is it a conscious goal? I don't know, and I'm not sure that matters. It may be an instinctive goal, a conscious goal, a genetic goal, or some other kind of goal, but I believe that goal is real.

During the different parts of the year, or season, circumstances dictate what short term activity best facilitates the long term goal, or objective, of casting that swarm next spring. The difference in colony activity during the buildup is clearly much different to the colony idling through the hot weeks of summer when little or no forage is available. Winter activity, too, is clearly much different from acitivities during other times of the year.

I guess that for me the most important thing to understand about all this is that the swarm that is cast in the spring is NOT the result of some short term circumstance or foul-up that causes the colony to be in the position to cast a swarm to survive. It is not an accident, but a year long series of purposeful events. Maybe the best example I can give is this:

In my search for "swarm prevention" methods that worked, I came across all the same ideas that you have: splitting, reversing, supering, demaree, pyramiding, and more recently Walt's Nectar Management.

I still experiment with reversing and supering because it provides a very easy way to observe how the bees react to the method. Reversal causes quite a disturbance when implemented, and certainly is effective at delaying swarming. As the colony adjusts to their new circumstances, they work to consolidate the brood nest if it was separated. They work to get stores in the "right" location for the advancing brood nest. When all of this is accomplished, even though several empty supers were placed above the colony after reversal, the colony often reverts to swarm preparation and will "backfill" the brood nest and populate queen cells without filling all of the empty supers above. The backfilling of the brood nest with nectar as its volume is reduced is a term that Walt and I use because we believe that it is a purposeful decision rather than accidental "congestion." It seems to me that this indicates purposeful decision making on the part of the colony. If the nectar that fills up the brood nest prior to swarming was an undesirable circumstance, why is this nectar not located in the space above?

At any rate this is a good time of year to be talking about swarm prevention. In my area pollen is already being brought back to the colonies! The fun is about to begin!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

greetings rob. i read your article in pov, and saw the pictures of your hives posted in the other articles by walt there. it's remarkable how your colonies have built up.

i aquired my first four hives of bees mid-summer 2010, so the spring 2011 was my first, and i was pretty much clueless. the result was that 3 of the 4 became queenless. i think it was because they swarmed and failed to get a mated queen due to bad weather, lack of drones, or birds eating them.

my location is not that far from walt's, so i think these methods will work fine here. fortunately i have some empty comb to provide above the broodnest. i'm thinking late january or early february for adding the comb.
i plan to watch for early blooms and pollen coming in, and wait for a nice warm day.

i am overwintering in single deeps under one medium. the mediums were full of honey at thanksgiving, and the hives still have pretty good weight at this time.

what would you or walt suggest i do if i find a honey band across the top of the deep frames? just leave it be, or perhaps scratch it open as one poster has suggested. many thanks.


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## rharlow (Mar 20, 2011)

> I do believe that the constant, year-round goal of the honeybee colony is to prepare to cast a reproductive swarm in the late winter or early spring of the next year.


In the above comment, would they still cast a swarm if given an unlimited brood nest? Wouldn't it be dependent on how fecund the queen was, and if still producing well, would they hold off? 

I'm of the belief that it is certain stimuli that the colony reacts to the spurs them into action to swarm. So I guess I'm looking for more information....... thanks


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

As a user of unlimited brood nests, I see virtually no swarming. However, I cannot attribute that to ULBN conclusively.

I do tend to believe that consistently large hives (the boxes) swarm less.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Every living thing has an urge to reproduce and carry on the species. Is that a goal? I would say so. Is it thought about? no. It is an urge. The urge can be delayed, discouraged, suppressed but never removed until the organism ages to the point that the urge subsides or physically cannot reproduce. Such is life.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Under ideal conditions, unlimited space, no disease, predation etc, a colony could go on and on. Reproducing workers, drones, and queens as necessary. Would such a hive swarm? I suspect so but not routinely simply because they are supposed to. There are numerous comments on the forum of how colonies vary, have a personality, so to speak. Seems to me this plays into it as well. Genetics??
In my youth, I raised tropical fish. The only way to get certain species to breed/reproduce, was to replicate the conditions of their natural streams during their breeding season. Usually spring. Temperature of the water had to be just right, minerals being washed into the stream because of the spring rains had to be duplicated. Amount of organic material was a factor. On and on. Point being,,,they too have a "duty" to reproduce. They will not unless conditions are correct. Obvious reason is, survival of the offspring in less than ideal conditions. There are many species that reproduce but only under certain circumstances and these circumstances may only happen once in many YEARS. 
Perhaps what stimulates a hive to swarm varies from hive to hive. What circumstances must be in place to stimulate a swarm response. An unusually high spring nectar low/ A combination of nectar flow, crowded brood nest? Maybe a prolific queen??? 
I may have mis read this thread. Seemed there was a search for a "hard" answer. Just do not think there is one. 
Out of my six hives I overwintered last year, only one swarmed. Unlimited brood nest. Five and six deeps tall. All on drawn comb. Same area/conditions. 
Just my thoughts and observations


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

rharlow said:


> I'm of the belief that it is certain stimuli that the colony reacts to the spurs them into action to swarm.


This is a great discussion. Chip, I kind of agree with your way of thinking on stimulus. I'm sure there is a built in instinctive need in most creatures to reproduce, but there also is a certain amount of stimulus needed to pull the trigger and send that process into motion. 

For example, I raise and breed African Cichlids and have found them to be very prolific fish. Once they have matured to the breeding age there is no hesitation for them to reproduce .... *if* they are in the proper environment. When the tank water is the correct PH, the proper temperature range, and a certain brine level they begin to spawn almost immediately. But remove or change one of those factors, for example reduce the temperature from 80 deg. to 72 deg., and spawning stops. The drive or need to reproduce has not changed, but external stimuli have changed and reproduction stops. Raise the temperature back up, and they begin spawning again. 

Maybe it's the same case in the honeybee world. Perhaps the bee does not have a "year round" goal to reproduce (swam) but when a certain combination of stimuli are experienced an internal instinctive mechanism is triggered. Length of day, ambient temperatures, available pollen, nectar sources, who knows what else .... all these are stimuli to either swarm, expand, conserve, boot out the drones, etc. Each part of the year has it's own reaction and response to whatever stimuli is being experienced. Maybe a fall colony is not really thinking about spring at all but rather responding to the fall stimuli and their need to prepare for winter. Each seasonal shift and change in stimuli produces an instinctive change in behavior for that particular time period. 

As humans we can interrupt or alter some of that stimuli and impact the natural response of the colony. Opening the brood nest in spring can change the coarse of swarming activity. In the fall when the colony is cutting back on brood rearing ... heavy feeding can stimulate brood rearing and prompt them to increase brood at the time of year when they should be cutting back. It's not their goal to increase brood in the fall, but instead a direct response to the external stimulus of increased feed (nectar). 

Guess that's enough of my rambling.

* Rick, just read your post after adding mine. I like your line of thinking


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

@rharlow:

The colony plan to swarm would potentially be interrupted by implementing unlimited brood nest. This is one of many techniques that beekeepers use to delay, interrupt, or halt the swarm process.

Not sure I fully understand your question. I do believe that swarming success does depend on many variables that are outside the control of the colony. Many have been stated in this thread, things such as queen quality, weather, available forage, disease, cavity size, etc. But I do not believe that lack of swarming success due to any of these variables implies that reproductive swarming is not the goal. I think that it is always the long term goal, but just as in anything else some years it just doesn't work out.


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

@squarepeg,

I would recommend doing nothing to the honey at the tops of the deep frames. Once forage becomes available in the late winter or early spring, I would recommend checkerboarding the honey in the medium that you have above the deep. Also add a couple of supers of empty comb above that. This is Walt's basic Nectar Management plan for swarm prevention. As the season progresses you will need to add empty supers as the brood nest expands upward.

Walt can give you specific information as to timing since you are in his area.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When two animals (anything from a human to a chimp) get aroused and have sex do they have a goal? Or do they just have instincts that lead them to the outcome of reproduction? Yet there is a progression (whatever mating rituals that animal has) which they go through that leads to that outcome. It's all semantics. There is a sequence of events that leads to swarming that works out the details needed for that outcome to occur. If you interrupt that sequence of events you change the outcome. Is it driven by instincts? Of course. Do those instincts have a "goal"? Yes, I think so. If they didn't we would have no bees.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I could be on this one for a while. I once posted a comment that said "before the bees are prepared" I got a couple of comments about my thinking that "Bees Prepair" as in they think and plan. And how clearly that is not so. In the context of the above quote it was more that the bees are prepaired as in by the keeper but that is another issue.

I do not think bees have "Goals" they respond. One response they have is swarming. Some call swarming the act of a colony reproducing. That may be a simplified way to look at it but I don't think it really fits if you look into the details.

Reproduction in most animals runs almost counter to everything else it does. In many cases reproducing results in death. Otherwise the instincts, reactions etc of an animal are all about staying alive. Yet when it comes to reproduction some species of deer a buck is known to defend a herd of females to the point of exhaustion and starvation. If this is planning it is really poor planning. Compare this to the Bee hive that will cast swarms to the point the original colony has no hope of survival. So what is the benefit of reproduction to the point it destroys the original organism? You first have to decide what is the benefit of reproduction at all. and that is pretty much the spreading of genetics. That the seed carries on. The Male deer will become so involved in insuring that his genetics are passed on in the maximum number of females as possible. That he will not eat or rest.

Although all activities may eventually support the act of swarming. I do not think that there is any planning or intent on the parts of the bees. I don't think they collect pollen, nectar, build comb, store honey or rear brood with any intent to swarm. they rear brood because they are compelled to rear brood, they collect pollen because it is available. The end result is that they will swarm. And they will do so at the abandonment of everything else. They will destroy themselves in the process. And the very act of doing so is a complete departure from every other activity they have engaged in. It is self destruction or you could call it suicide. The underlying reason is nothing new. To give the genetics of that colony the greatest advantage it can in the overall pool of the species. To spread them as far and wide as possible in as many casts as possible.

I do think it is interesting that there is one larger main swarm and what this might serve. Possibly one act of preservation of the original population. It does show that a colony does not find a hollow tree build comb and live in it for years. they swarm, find new cavities and rebuild. I wonder how this need to rebuild plays into the overall health of the hive and what this means for beekeeping practices that keep giving the same old comb back to the bees. Another subject I suppose.

In the end I don't think bees are capable of having goals. They respond to the stimulus around them. Weather, temperature, odors, photo period etc.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Let me take out one of the variables that shows up frequently in the above posts. With a single exception, queen fecundity is not a factor in repro swarming. Winston, in his book, written by his undergrads, states that swarming is a way to get rid of a failing queen. Pure bs. The colony has a lot of energy involved in reproduction and they don't waste much. Their whole management system is based on efficiency. For the colony to issue a swarm with a failing queen is not only wasteful, but is just plain dumb. Note that we have seen colonies commit to swarm, decide their queen was unsuitable, and use the first of the swarm cells for supersedure. (And his book is considered a hallmark in bee biology.)

Back to fecundity: A colony housed in their preferred cavity size of about a bushel, does not come close to using up their queen's laying capacity in one season, but they are likely to swarm annually, if healthy. Queen fecundity is not relevant in that case.

For expanded brood nests of larger cavities fecundity is also not involved, but it is off-topic here. Will try to treat that subject on the thread where it is applicable.

Walt


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

So does the swarm reasons apply to Africanized Honey Bees as well, or are these studies specific to European Honey bees?


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

I once heard a biology professor give a lecture on the nervous system of marine gastropods (marine snails). They have 4 main nerve ganglia, each dedicated to a particular behavioral mode. Depending on external stimuli and internal state, they switch from one behavioral state to another. He called these behavioral states the four "Fs" of marine gastropod behavior, feeding, fighting, fleeing, and copulation.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

If only it were so simple. :lpf:


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I'm not following how Marine Gastropods and their ganglia related to Apis Mellifera. Please elaborate for us.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

When you are cold you shiver, you have no choice in the matter. If something flies toward your face you flinch. When A bee is subjected to a particular stimulus such as cold or flying objects. It responds. It does not have a choice in the matter. Not in any matter. It does not forage by choice. It forages because it has been stimulated by forage. Just as the ganglia of the Gastropod being stimulated determines it's behavior. The actions of the bee is controlled not by the bee but by the bees environment. This is extremely evident in how a colony functions in unison. Bees have the nearly perfect society because free will has been nearly completely if not completely removed. There is nothing in a colony that should be likened to choice, plan, goal or reasoning. In fact it is key to the function of the hive that those very qualities do not exist. If they did there would be no agreement and no structure to the work. they would all bee setting on the landing board waiting for the welfare check.
It has been proven that fish do not eat because they are hungry or that they think, "oh look food". they strike at almost any object that moves as a reflex, a flinch. The result is that sometimes that object is edible and nutritious and they are nourished. But a fish lives it's entire life never knowing the concept of hunting or eating.


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

Well put. Just like state machines.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Fish traps with tied-in bait are outlawed here. Very considerate of the state to make it illegal to waste your time.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good morning walt, looks like another frosty one for us.

do you concur with rob's answer (post 29) to my question (post 22), about scratching a path through capped honey at the top of the deep frames? i.e. that it would not be necessary.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

DanielY
Best explanation! IMO
BTW Copulation does not have an F in it.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Sq,
Have not tried uncapping to open a path through the reserve. (a little off topic) But I woud expect it to be effective. I agree with Rob's response. You are not likely to have a band of capped honey at the top of the deep. On interior frames, the colony "wants" to use the whole frame for brood. They typically draw the line at the break in functional comb between boxes.
Walt


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks walt, so i shouldn't expect to see a solid band across the top. sorry about straying off topic. i have another question but i'll put in on the other thread.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Winston, in his book, written by his undergrads, states that swarming is a way to get rid of a failing queen. Pure bs. (And his book is considered a hallmark in bee biology.) Walt


I know we've been through this before W, and I always hesitate to get in a "discussion" with you about nectar management and CBing.

Pure "BS"? I know you think all literature on the swarming process has got it wrong, is pure BS, and only your swarm prep/back filling/repro cut-off date/CB thesis is the correct literature on swarming and its control. I don't. I think Winston has it right. In "some" cases, swarming is used as a requeening method. Not the only reason, though. Swarming is one method bees use to requeen their colony. Why is swarming more frequent in colonies with older queens? Because swarming is a requeening method. Perhaps the term "failing queen" should be replaced with "older queen". Of course you can discount what you call a "supercedure" swarm and say it isn't a true swarm, but it is. You can say that with CB one will have zero swarms...but you go on to talk about "supercedure" swarm as if they don't count. They do and they are. 

Swarming isn't a goal, it's a response to stimuli. Bees don't start last fall planning on a swarm this spring. Back filling isn't something the bees do consciously with the final intention being the issue of a swarm. A strong colony back fills their broodnest because the bees have nowhere to put their nectar...around and above the active brood rearing cluster. So, it winds up going and remaining in the recently vacated brood cells...and that's the trigger for swarming. Think not? Why does CB work to reduce or eliminate swarming? The colony is just as strong as before CB. The only real difference is that the bees have overhead nectar storage space. If they were so Hlbent on swarming, why does adding overhead nectar storage space end the supposed swarming goal if it is the end desire of the colony. Because the stimulus of a broodnest being back filled is gone. 

And yes, bees will swarm with ample overhead nectar storage space. I feel that's a symptom of the queen's performance. The colony isn't populous enough to store their nectar overhead, the top of the broodnest is the top of the colony, the empty supers are not. Since nectar is stored at the "top" of the broodnest, it is stored in the cells recently vacated by the brood, back filling occurs, and swarm preps are begun. 

I don't believe it's the other way around. I believe it's the back filling of the broodnest that initiates the swarm response, and that the swarm response isn't responsible for back filling the broodnest. It's the same chicken/egg scenario that I've asked about before, and never gotten a response.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Actually fish have three sensory stimuli. But I was not trying to write a complete description of what causes a fish to strike. Just as the bee does not have one stimuli or just one response. Now I am sure this one is going to go way over your head. But a bee will actually be stimulated by different things in different ways dependent upon what roll it is currently in. It is called taking a simple concept and applying it to a complex situation. It is known as reasoning. Sometimes that ability comes in handy.



wcubed said:


> Fish traps with tied-in bait are outlawed here. Very considerate of the state to make it illegal to waste your time.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael, I have read his manuscript and I want to clearly understand what you both are saying. You are saying a supersedure is a swarm even though the colony doesn't leave the box? A bee hive will swarm (leave the nest) with ample over overhead storage space because the colony is weak?

If I follow through with my crazy idea of putting boxes underneath the brood they are guaranteed to swarm because they will always be backfilling?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

michael, it does make sense to me that if a colony is bringing in so much nectar, and runs out of room to store it, that the conditions would be the perfect stimulus for a reproductive swarm.

walt's hypothesis as i understand it, is that the colony works through its winter stores during the build-up, prior to the main flow, and prepares to swarm when it gets down to a critical reserve of stores. the timing is reported to be more dependent on colony size vs. stores rather than nectar availablity, but generally coincides with the beginning of the main spring flow. that also makes sense to me. what is your opinion of this as a stimulus?

on supercedure, my understanding was that walt's cb'ed colonies virtually all superceded without swarming, but i could have misread.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Michael, I have read his manuscript and I want to clearly understand what you both are saying. You are saying a supersedure is a swarm even though the colony doesn't leave the box?


No, I'm, saying that a swarm...when the bees leave the hive... intended for the end result in the requeening of the colony, and not for colony reproduction, is a swarm just the same. Perhaps I read the manuscript incorrectly. I got from it that there are two types of swarms...reproductive swarms and supercedure swarms. In counting the % of colonies that swarmed after CBing, which the author says is zero, I understood that what are called supercedure swarms in the manuscript don't count as swarms. Did I get that wrong? The paper is difficult to read and decipher, and written a language that I'm unfamiliar with. There are too many unsubstantiated opinions for me to accept it as a whole. While I do agree with some of the premise, I can't agree with it all.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Delete...multiple post.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> A bee hive will swarm (leave the nest) with ample over overhead storage space because the colony is weak?


No, I don't believe weak colonies swarm. I'm saying colonies that aren't STRONG can swarm. I've tried to understand and come up with an explanation why colonies that have ample overhead room to store nectar will sometimes swarm, and just adding supers isn't enough...in every case I believe Winston has it right...sometimes swarming is used...by some stocks...to requeen the colony. That's why colonies with older queens will swarm with a higher % than colonies with young queens. 

When a work on honeybees says it's one way and one way only, I immediately question that manuscript. When you've had enough bees for long enough, and observed over many years what honeybees do, you'll see that honeybees do it every way, and not only one way and for one reason.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Delete post...double again. Computer I guess.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> If I follow through with my crazy idea of putting boxes underneath the brood they are guaranteed to swarm because they will always be backfilling?


No, because some colonies will readily move down and some colonies won't. As I said, every one is different.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Surely it is opinionated as would anything that is written but some of the opinions seem logical. Agree with it all ... I can't see that happening even with the Bible. As I understand what he wrote, CBing is a manipulation that heads off a swarm (bees leaving the nest) that ends up in supersedure. I am a little perplexed on this because some people might not want their high priced queen superseded looking for the better second season.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> walt's hypothesis as i understand it, is that the colony works through its winter stores during the build-up, prior to the main flow, and prepares to swarm when it gets down to a critical reserve of stores. the timing is reported to be more dependent on colony size vs. stores rather than nectar availablity, but generally coincides with the beginning of the main spring flow. that also makes sense to me. what is your opinion of this as a stimulus?


So you're saying that a strong expanding colony that is running out of stores will start swarm preparations before the spring flow begins. See, that's one part of this theory that I have issues with. I've never seen a colony swarm with no flow on. I don't believe bees are planning all along to swarm and start preparing to do so before the flow begins. I do think their instinct...intention if you will...is to raise bees and increase the population of the colony.

If that population builds to a level conducive to swarming, it won't necessarily swarm. I'm saying that the conditions...flow conditions...have to be right. No flow no swarm. One other condition is back filling...has to be a flow to back fill. Has to be back filling to start swarm preps. And, the chicken/egg question continues...and never gets answered. Which comes first...back filling or swarm preparations? I think it's back filling.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Bees, like all other living things, are evolved in a way that maximizes reproduction for that particular species in it's environment. Bees reproduce colonies by swarming, so one should expect them to do so in conditions likely for the swarm to become established while the parent colony contiues to survive and prosper.

Maintaining colonies for maximum honey and best health is a human activity, not a bee activity. Swarming is the natural activity of bees in the spring when conditions are right, we need to modify that behavior for our purposes, not the bee's purposes.

Bees are not thinking humans in minature, they, like most insects, are driven by pre-programmed instinct. We can manipulate the hive, stores, and feed available to modify bee behavior, but we aren't really changing anything about the bees themselves.

On a side note, supercedure is also a normal activity in bees. Sometimes (perhaps often) happens without the bee-keeper's knowledge or participation, expensive queens or not. I'm a hobby novice beekeper, so I'm not planning on re-queening, buying expensive queens unless I'm forced to, or attempting to maintain a specific strain of bees. Might be a different case for a commerical keeper, especially if one is in an area with aficanized bees. Not an issue here, I'm happy with local "mutts" since my brother's are mite free for all intents and purposes and doing pretty well six years on. 

Is swarming a "goal?" Nah, it's a biological imperative and any hive is certain to do so if the conditions are right. If you don't want swarming, it must be prevented by manipulating condtions in the hive. We can gnaw the ideas of what "causes" swarming or any of the steps in it to death, but in point of fact, it will happen as regular as clockwork in unmanipulated hives. It's as natural to bees as collecting nectar and storing honey!

Peter


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## BeeMan_2010 (Jan 7, 2010)

psfred said:


> Bees, like all other living things, are evolved in a way that maximizes reproduction for that particular species in it's environment. Bees reproduce colonies by swarming, so one should expect them to do so in conditions likely for the swarm to become established while the parent colony contiues to survive and prosper.
> 
> Maintaining colonies for maximum honey and best health is a human activity, not a bee activity. Swarming is the natural activity of bees in the spring when conditions are right, we need to modify that behavior for our purposes, not the bee's purposes.
> 
> ...


 Well said, Peter I agree with you 100%.

Shirley


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## BeeMan_2010 (Jan 7, 2010)

psfred said:


> Bees, like all other living things, are evolved in a way that maximizes reproduction for that particular species in it's environment. Bees reproduce colonies by swarming, so one should expect them to do so in conditions likely for the swarm to become established while the parent colony contiues to survive and prosper.
> 
> Maintaining colonies for maximum honey and best health is a human activity, not a bee activity. Swarming is the natural activity of bees in the spring when conditions are right, we need to modify that behavior for our purposes, not the bee's purposes.
> 
> ...


 Well said, Peter I agree with you 100%.

Shirley


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> I think it's back filling.


Can backfilling be accomplished by moving stores, as in the hive has too much honey left on it over winter?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Micheal, 
Looks like the double post is on Barry's end.
Have not deliberately declined to respond to any questions re CB. My keyboard skills will not support any response to a question that takes a long discussion, or explanation.

When I mention supersedure swarms, am referring to the tiny swarm that I believe is a result of the old queen bailing out with a few loyal supporters after being replaced by the supersedure queen. Don't know where the confusion comes from that the SS swarm is comparable to a repro swarm.

Chicken and egg thing: I can understand your position. You don't see what we see in the Southeast. The protection of the capped honey reserve overhead. The protection of the reserve is conspicuously obvious here. The strongest and the weakest will stop expansion at the reserve, and start backfilling. This implies that saving the reserve is a componant part of the repro process. What other reason could there be? And it's not just some colonies, but all races of the European bee do it on ALL colonies. That takes out the genetic diversity aspect. If you would like to see it happen, just leave a couple of extra supers of capped honey on one of your strongest.

Walt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Chicken and egg thing: I can understand your position. You don't see what we see in the Southeast. The protection of the capped honey reserve overhead. The protection of the reserve is conspicuously obvious here. The strongest and the weakest will stop expansion at the reserve, and start backfilling. This implies that saving the reserve is a componant part of the repro process. What other reason could there be?
> Walt


That they've reached the limit of upward expansion and must start expanding downward which reaults in back filling of the top brood combs which is the swarming trigger? Nothiung to do with protecting any reserve. Leaving supers on is no different...even if multiple supers of capped honey. The bees don't see capped honey as upward expansion and nectar storage room. No different if there is no honey reserve and no supers and a flos happens and they have no overhead storage room. Of course they stop the expansion at the reserve. Where else can they go? What else can they do? IMO


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

so i guess the whole point of checkerboarding as a swarm preventative is keeping the bees in forward gear, discourage them from going back down. makes sense, more room for more brood for more foragers for more flow exploitation.

i don't think it's either/or, i think it's both/and.

i think i may let some of mine swarm anyway. need more drones.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> i don't think it's either/or, i think it's both/and.


Yes, I think so too. If whatever manipulation used results in upward expansion and overhead nectar storage, the results will be the same for the same reason... Checkerboarding, reversing, broodnest expansion, pyramiding, and even just supering. Circumstances dictate which and when.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

MP:
What is this "limit" of which you speak? The same colony in the next season, with increased capped honey overhead will increase brood volume more (higher.) So the limit moves higher with increased honey overhead. You will get progressively more brood volume as you change wintering config. from deep & shallow, double deep, to DD plus. Take time to explain your flexible limit.
Walt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I'll take a stab at your question...

Limit? Same as what you say Walt. The upward expansion of the broodnest is limited by what is or isn't above. In your area, you talk about the overhead capped honey reserve that "limits" the bees upward expansion and overhead nectar storage. You checkerboard to allow upward expansion and overhead nectar storage. What would happen if you didn't? The beed would hit that upward expansion limit, that overhead honey reserve dome, have no overhead storage room for nectar or upward expansion room for brood rearing, and must expand downward. Swarming often is the result...as you say, too.

Here, in the Northeast, the bees seldomly have the spring overhead capped honey dome you speak of. Never really unless the colony is weak or too much honey was left on the colony in the Fall. Here, the upward expansion is stopped by the inner cover as it becomes the top of the colony. Without supers on, the bees react the same as you colonies with a capped honey reserve above that limits their upward expansion.

Not sure what you mean by "flexible" limit. I don't see how the upward expansion limit, or brood volume can be increased with increased capped honey overhead. I guess there will be additional cluster space for some bees on that honey, but how does having increased overhead capped honey increase brood volume? 

Not sure what you mean by increasing brood volume as you change winter configuration. Of course, at least in my area, brood volume will increase with added brood nest volume of open brood comb...to a point. There have to be enough bees to support the increased brood volume. 

But when the broodnest is unlimited and there are ample bees to care for the brood and perform all other colony functions, the brood volume increases. And what is that limit? For instance...this colony has been boosted with brood and bees twice...it's a colony used for cell building. All brood was added above an excluder. Because they have ULBN, and a huge population, the bees and queen are maintaining a broodnest below the excluder of 15 combs of brood...7 of which are unsealed brood. Hard to imaging in a deep & shallow configuration. So just adding empty brood comb to the hive doesn't guarantee increased brood volume.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Because they have ULBN,


I have to stop you here because I think ULBN mean unlimited brood nest and I don't see that with an excluder. It sounds like you are just artificially pumping brood into a hive. Essentially using two or more colonies to increase the numbers of another.
So far I see CBing as a very risky manipulation for northern regions because access to the hive in mid winter is very limited plus as you say northern bees tend to eat through their stores to the top so they naturally provide their own space.
In my own case I do not see why continually adding space underneath the brood as they back fill will not discourage them from swarming anymore than CBing, reversing, and top supering. I think I know what Walt is going to say but Michael what do you think would happen if the bees started a queen cell at the bottom of the frame and then I put another empty box underneath? Would it be too late?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Mike:
We are not that far apart here. It's just a matter of reference and/or interpretation. Old literature speaks in terms of starting swarm cells being the start of the "swarm impulse." By the time the the colony starts swarm cells they have accomplished quite bit of preliminary work to prepare for that step. Built brood volume to the safe limit and reduced the temporary overshoot in brood volume by backfilling. The overshoot provides the population for division and backfilling supports both the parent colony survival and make up of the swarm work force.

One could see the build up in general as swarm preps, but build up is not unique to swarming colonies - weaker colonies need to recover from winter. The overshoot in brood volume is oriented to swarming, but is not very definitive and the beekeeper has no reference for what constitutes overshoot. So, we arbitrarily call the start of backfilling the start of swarm preps. All colonies casting a repro swarm will apply backfilling, but all colonies that start backfilling do not necessarily swarm. They can run out of season time without starting swarm cells.

In post 54 you make it plain that you do not include backfilling in swarm preps. Not a biggee, and just a matter of reference for your opinion.

Declare a truce??
Walt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I have to stop you here because I think ULBN mean unlimited brood nest and I don't see that with an excluder. It sounds like you are just artificially pumping brood into a hive. Essentially using two or more colonies to increase the numbers of another.


Usually a queen excluder is place on a single or double brood chamber, this limiting the queen to that broodnest. An unlimited broodnest allows her to go where she will. My picture actually shows a cell builder with added brood over an excluder...so the brood will be without larvae on grafting day. The queen still has free run of two hive bodies and two medium honey supers...which I would consider an ULBN. Yes of course I'm pumping brood into the hive...with the intention of creating a powerful cell building colony. I was only trying to make a point...that we almost never see a queen reach her full potential becaus she is held back by lack of population to care for the brood she _could_ raise if she had an unlimited population. Actually I harvest brood from nucs to boost these cell builder colonies.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> So far I see CBing as a very risky manipulation for northern regions because access to the hive in mid winter is very limited plus as you say northern bees tend to eat through their stores to the top so they naturally provide their own space.


Yes they do but reach their upward limit because they run out of open comb above the cluster...it all being full of brood and incomming nectar. Not really so different than what Walt says...just limited by the top of the broodnest rather that a honey dome.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> In my own case I do not see why continually adding space underneath the brood as they back fill will not discourage them from swarming anymore than CBing, reversing, and top supering. I think I know what Walt is going to say but Michael what do you think would happen if the bees started a queen cell at the bottom of the frame and then I put another empty box underneath? Would it be too late?


It will discourage some, but not all. I would say that _most_ react better to upward expansion that CBing, reversing, and supering provide. I believe it's the natural sequence...upward expansion until that expansion is limited by overhead capped honey or the top of the hive. At that point backfilling begins and many colonies react to that downward pressure with an expanding broodnest by starting swarm preparations. Ace, I've done what you are suggesting. Yes it helped in some cases to add a medium of dark comb below the cluster but not in every case. If you have swarm cells started in a colony, just adding additional comb space above or below won't prevent that swarm from issuing.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Mike:We are not that far apart here. Declare a truce??
> Walt


I agree Walt, we're not that far apart. I for one am not fighting a battle or war, so need for a truce...

Only trying to present my point of view


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Mike:
> Old literature speaks in terms of starting swarm cells being the start of the "swarm impulse." By the time the the colony starts swarm cells they have accomplished quite bit of preliminary work to prepare for that step. Built brood volume to the safe limit and reduced the temporary overshoot in brood volume by backfilling. The overshoot provides the population for division and backfilling supports both the parent colony survival and make up of the swarm work force. Walt


I agree that starting the cells is not the start of the swarming impulse. What I question is that the impulse begins last Fall or early spring. I think backfilling is the start and that backfilling is happening because there is no overhead nectar storage room. Why else would CBing work to discourage swarming. It's the backfilling that is the trigger to start swarm preparations, not some goal of the bees.

Temporary overshoot in brood volume? You mean they run out of room to raise additional brood in an expanding colony? Well of course that's true. Add additional brood comb space above or within the broodnest and swarm preparations stop. Why? Because they have overhead brood expansion and nectar storage room.

I think you read more into the process that is there.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Mike:
> 
> In post 54 you make it plain that you do not include backfilling in swarm preps. Not a biggee, and just a matter of reference for your opinion. Walt


 Post #54...

>>No, because some colonies will readily move down and some colonies won't. As I said, every one is different.<<

Not what I intended to mean or say. I've consistently said that backfilling is a part of swarm preparations...it's the beginning...the trigger if you wil. Where we disagree Walt is that you say the bees intentionally start backfilling the broodnest as another step in the swarming process...a second or third step which starts before backfilling. I am saying that it's the backfilling that intiates the swarm preparations. 

What I say in post #54 is eaxacly what you say in post #66...

>>All colonies casting a repro swarm will apply backfilling, but all colonies that start backfilling do not necessarily swarm.<<


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Yes, I do believe the early season is dedicated to reproduction and virtually everthing the established colony does is oriented to swarming. Mid flow the emphasis shifts to colony resupply for wintering.

I can see your position that backfilling is forced by incoming nectar with no place to put it. But there are other times when nectar availability does not cause brood nest reduction. Seems I asked you one other time if you didn't see the lull in overhead nectar storage that starts in the repro swarm issue period and lasts for about 3 weeks. Don't remember getting an answer. Brood volume is drifting lower during that lull at at a leizurely pace, and locally field nectar is peaking (black locust). 

Population is controlled by brood volume in the bee colony, and they are racing against calendar time to get the swarm out the door with enough forage availability to have a chance at establishment. The speed with which they increase brood volume (explode) and reduce brood volume (backfill) is enough evidence that both are oriented to swarming. At no other time in the season does brood volume change at those rates. Not even in the fall, headed for total broodnest closeout.

Above, we referred to the temporary burst in brood volume as overshoot. When those swarm bees are gone, the colony brood volume is back to proportional to cavity size. They have no problem resupplying with a balanced work force.

It's a complicated process, but we believe it is instinctive. They have had a few eons to perfect their format and it serves them well.

Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> Yes, I do believe the early season is dedicated to reproduction and virtually everthing the established colony does is oriented to swarming. Mid flow the emphasis shifts to colony resupply for wintering.


This makes perfect sense to me but what do I know. I think a lot of what Walt says makes sense but I don't know if the details apply to my area and I am not savvy enough to experiment with his ideas.


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## rharlow (Mar 20, 2011)

Why is brood volume explosion (assuming an open brood nest and available nectar storage space) considered an act of swarm prep vs. an act of increasing foragers to collect more honey to go into winter with?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> I can see your position that backfilling is forced by incoming nectar with no place to put it. But there are other times when nectar availability does not cause brood nest reduction. Seems I asked you one other time if you didn't see the lull in overhead nectar storage that starts in the repro swarm issue period and lasts for about 3 weeks. Don't remember getting an answer. Brood volume is drifting lower during that lull at at a leizurely pace, and locally field nectar is peaking (black locust).
> Walt


HNY Walt. 

...and at other times that backfilling doesn't cause swarming...remember my contention is they do it every way...

I don't remember you asking the question...do I see a lull in overhead nectar storage, or the brood volume drifting lower during that supposed lull?

I don't see what you do. I see my bees building up brood volume to a point they can maintain...according to colony population, and holding there. Not sure why you see this and I don't. Could be where we each keep bees. Could be our hive configuration. Could be our management. Whatever the difference, I don't see it.

I can't speak to keeping bees in Tennessee, as I only know my bees in the northern Champlain valley of NY and VT. The difference in what we see could be related to flow, but reducing brood volume for 3 weeks around Locust bloom? Of course, I do see a lull in nectar storage if the weather is poor as it so often is here around Locust bloom, but reduction in brood volume? Nope.

For configuration I use double deeps and a medium as the broodnest. Yes, I know how you abhore double deeps. I see many, many colonies with 9-12 frames of brood and some with more at Dandelion bloom. I believe you use a super/deep/super copnfiguration for your broodnests? Perhaps the additional room in my setup to raise brood results in colonies that continue to raise brood. My bees seem to build to a brood volume and hold there through most of the main flow...as long as there is empty comb space for the queen. Can the bees in your setup maintain a broodnest, or even reach a broodnest volume of 9, 10, 12, or more frames of brood? If I tried to keep my bees in your configuration, I have no doubt they would be backfilling the top of the broodnest and starting swarm preparations. The prolificness of our queens, and our flows at this time of the year, dictate the hive configuration that must be used. 

And it could be our differences in management. I keep the colonies expanding upwards during the first part of the season...at least through Dandelion bloom. In fact, the way we reverse and super, the queens have full reign of the hive and will be laying in both brood boxes and even up into the supers. 

Our spring flow starts with willow and maple. When the weather is right and the colonies strong coming out of winter, and supers are on the hives in time, I see the bees capping honey above...even before dandelion flow. Surely by dandelion they're filling supers like mad...our dandelion flow is a 50 lb or more flow. At that point we reverse the brood chambers and add more supers. This period after dandelion/fruit bloom used to have a dearth in many apiaries in this area...and I used to have some colonies starving in the beginning of June. Only thing available was Yellow Rocket...aka mustard. This dearth was due to lack of bloom. Yards where honeysuckle has invaded now have no such dearth and continue filling supers through the honeysuckle flow and locust flow and beyond. Colonies can store so much nectar at this point that we're top supering, bottom supering and sometimes both at once, just to handle the volume of nectar coming in. Other than splitting and/or manually opening up the broodnest, neither of which I do regularly, this is the only way I've found to keep the bees expanding up and storing nectar out of the broodnest.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

rharlow said:


> Why is brood volume explosion (assuming an open brood nest and available nectar storage space) considered an act of swarm prep vs. an act of increasing foragers to collect more honey to go into winter with?


Here, here Chip. I agree completely and have wanted to ask the same. And this is where this discussion becomes opinion. No one really knows what the bees are planning...or if they are planning anything other than expanding their broodnest and population, in preparation for the coming winter.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>Could be our hive configuration. Could be our management. Whatever the difference, I don't see it.

doesn't genetics play into it as well. i.e. isn't there a known difference in the timing that the various strains of bees build up in the spring and close out in the fall? is it also possible that even bees of a given strain might adapt their strategy to take full advantage of the local conditions?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Population is controlled by brood volume in the bee colony, and they are racing against calendar time to get the swarm out the door with enough forage availability to have a chance at establishment. The speed with which they increase brood volume (explode) and reduce brood volume (backfill) is enough evidence that both are oriented to swarming. At no other time in the season does brood volume change at those rates. Not even in the fall, headed for total broodnest closeout.
> 
> Above, we referred to the temporary burst in brood volume as overshoot. When those swarm bees are gone, the colony brood volume is back to proportional to cavity size. They have no problem resupplying with a balanced work force.
> 
> ...


Really, I don't think they're racing against anything other than the coming winter. I have to disagree that the bees have this all consuming urge to swarm. More likely an urge to expand the broodnest and population so they can better function and insure survivability. Yes they'll swarm if the conditions are right, but not all imperitive or consuming. IMO, swarm preparations are begun because of a stimulus and not some preplanned event. That stimulus is backfilling. I understand what you are saying about brood volumme increase/reduction. Yes it happens, but surely not a pre-planned event. 

I see this brood volume increase/reduction in the Fall with the start of the Goldenrod flow. This is another 50-60 lb flow here. If the supers are full and the broodnest can't handle the incoming GR nectar, the colony backfills the top brood box and often the results are exactly the same as what happens during the spring/summer swarming season. Manage the supers so the broodnest isn't being used for nectar storage during the main flow and the bees have empty combs in the top of the broodnest for GR nectar storage. Take a heavy colony into GR flow with no overhead storage room and a heavy top brood box and the bees will be hitting the trees.

Walt, your bees might have a temporary burst in broodrearing, but as I said above, I don't see that here. I see a buildup of brood volume to the poiunt the bees can maintain...every colony has a different volume level...and they maintain that lever until later in the season when the main flow is done and we have that short dearth after the main flow and before GR. My NY inspector doesn't either and has asked me why my bees always seem to have 9 frames of brood when he inspects...his words not mine. Beats me other than I'm selecting breeders from colonies that maintain a broodnest of 9 frames of brood or more. Could be I guess. I don't really know. I do know what he writes all over the outside of my hives. _Another 9 frames of brood, another 9 frames of brood._ and this in early-mid main flow when you say there is a brood volume reduction.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

squarepeg;740384
doesn't genetics play into it as well. [/QUOTE said:


> Yes, obviously.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sorry michael, my intention was not to state the obvious. in fact, part of me hesitates to interject comments into an ongoing discussion between well respected and seasoned veterans like you and walt.

my bees and their genetics are mostly from a supplier who started raising bees six or seven years ago, he started with a handful of feral hives that he captured from the woods around here. they have never been treated with anything, and have all the good traits, honestly. he sells a couple of hundred queens/nucs a year.

to the topic, my location is very near walt's, and i can't wait to see what happens in the hives over the next few months.

many thanks to you michael, you walt, and all the rest of you for sharing your time, your knowledge, and your experience. and thanks to beesource for making these forums available, these postings have been interesting to say the least, and really valuable to say the most. happy new year.


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## frostygoat (Jun 3, 2008)

I'm late, but contend that swarming is absolutely a goal. Selfish genetic elements have just one goal and that is to proliferate. So yes, reproduction is important, but the goal of any colony should be to spread its genotype. A swarm can invade new areas and potentially become a dominant genotype though its influence on other colonies. Thus, while a massive hive has much reproductive success, this does not necessarily translate to higher fitness. A smaller hive that has issued many swarms has potentially greater fitness because it has had greater opportunity to spread its genes by influencing more colonies with its drones as well as reducing junky genes through back crosses. Thus, over time genes from swarming colonies become more dominant.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

rharlow:
Timing is the major reason for association of the explosion/backfilling with the swarm process. In the double deep, where the colony wintered in the lower and expanded into the upper, swarm cells appear promptly when the top box backfilling is complete. It couldn't be plainer. Further, the broodnest volume drifts lower from that point through the end of the spring flow - where it takes a steeper dive. We often have only two deep frames of brood at the first of Aug. Just in time to expand for rearing winter bees.

Walt


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## rharlow (Mar 20, 2011)

Walt

Forgive me if I'm a little slow, but I'm not clear on how brood explosion is the same or intertwined with backfilling. I understand and believe that backfilling is a primary reason that a hive starts preparing to swarm, but do not understand how this is related to brood explosion. If brood is exploding with an open brood nest and the hive still has room above to store nectar, then it would not be backfilling in the brood nest and thus not prepare to swarm. Am I missing something??


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

M. P. : Post #76
Thank you for describing what you see. As you know, it's not what I expected. We have consistently reported that colonies do not change their basic survival traits depending on where they are located. May have to revise that opinion.
What you see is very close to what we see in 2nd year colonies:
Early wax making and storing through the lull - two significant differences from fully established here.
It's not obvious yet whether it is a latent survival trait oriented to long cold winters or a reaction to your management approach. We consider checkerboarding effects to be the results of bringing out a latent survival trait, unknown to all. The results are too consistent to be the effects of seasonal differences or the mechanical effect of too much nectar. We can agree to disagree on that aspect - it's not a big deal.

You seem to be proud of your brood volume and rightly so. If you were to allow them their normal brood nest reduction in the early season (that you don't get back) you would get far less population/honey production. Checkerboarding produces more brood volume up front, but trails off during and after our short flow to just a sustaining level. We often get the deep and four shallows of brood before main flow. With nine frames, bottom to top, that is typically 5 deep and and 20 shallow frames of brood - equivalent to 15 deep frames. The chart in POV, intending to show multi-season average and target brood volume, stops at 3 shallow supers of brood, or 2 1/2 less deep frames. That chart is near the bottom of the list in POV in an article on honey production.

I can understand your reservations about wintering in a config. that looks like a potential deep and shallow brood nest. CB turns the colony loose to grow brood through the reserve and keep on growing. The results are surprising. This past spring season was poor in TN. We only made a little over 150 lb average on the spring flow. We were disappointed until we heard the reports from contemporaries. Some got very little surplus at all this spring.

Post # 79:
No point in haggling over differences of opinion. Nothing changes.

Walt


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## MethowKraig (Aug 21, 2011)

I started a new thread, "swarming as success" under SWARMS, CUTOUTS, ETC.

I'd love some feedback on my ideas.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Chip:
The open brood brood nest is a contrivance by those who believe that "No Room For The Queen To Lay" is a cause for swarming. Available storage space for nectar is not a consideration in that approach. It does suppress swarming by slowing colony development. If you accept the concept of a point in the season when the colony abandons swarming ambition and switches to colony survival, it is easy to see how slowing them down is beneficial in prevention. Any technique that disrupts the broodnest causes the colony to reorganize and that takes time. As noted above, and disputed, the colony is working to a tight timeline.

Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> As noted above, and disputed, the colony is working to a tight timeline.
> Walt


This part of your logic I have a problem with because it doesn't explain late season swarms. The time line is pretty broad if they can decide to swarm late in the season even to the point where survival is doubtful.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird,
It's not a decision, it's a result of stimuli. Late season swarms are indicitive of something going on in the bees themselves, possibly nosema or mite stress.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

mark I agree when you say it is a result. the term goal should not have been used in this thread as it means that bees think. everything that happens in a hive is a result. poor queen, crowding, stress etc. their actions are a result rather than a goal.


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## rharlow (Mar 20, 2011)

> The open brood brood nest is a contrivance by those who believe that "No Room For The Queen To Lay" is a cause for swarming. Available storage space for nectar is not a consideration in that approach.


Why isn't it a consideration? I consider it, because if there is no room for nectar storage, they will backfill which reduces room for the queen to lay. I see these two as interrelated, is that a fallacy?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

So I guess it is time to throw out Dr Seeley's book now. Bees find a new home as a result of stimuli.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

rharlow said:


> I see these two as interrelated, is that a fallacy?


You could confine the queen to the brood nest with an excluder and provide empty supers so the foragers could deposit honey in them but if they were in a backfilling mode the queen would run out of room. I guess most believe that the foragers will stop backfilling and put the honey in empty supers. I am thinking Walt feels maybe not, they could still swarm. Correct me if I have this wrong Walt.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Didn't Seeley's book address how a colony chooses it's new home? I didn't think it addressed what causes swarms to occur.

That could be another book for Seeley to write, if he finds evidence that the colony decides, in similar fashion to choosing a cavity, whether or when to swarm.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> That could be another book for Seeley to write, if he finds evidence that the colony decides, in similar fashion to choosing a cavity, whether or when to swarm.


That is my point. How can you be absolutely certain the bees don't decide to swarm and it is just a result of stimuli? There are at least two opinions on when and how it starts but I haven't seen any scientific evidence to prove either opinion. It is pretty easy to manufacture a swarm so you can study it. It is a little more difficult to manufacture the stimuli if that is all it is that causes a swarm.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You can manufacture an ARTIFICIAL Swarm. An important distinction.

It certainly is difficult to manufacture all of the conditions necassary to result in a colony swarming. Though we do it every Spring, unless we do things to interfere w/ the natural course of things.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

rharlow:
By 'not a consideration' I meant that there is no effort in that approach to deliberately add space for nectar storage. Frames are added in the interior of the broodnest. The bees oblige by starting brood in those frames. Nectar storage space has not changed. You are right, of course, that nectar storage space is a key ingredient to swarm prevention, but it is not incorporated in opening the brood nest.
Walt


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

The foregoing discussion is relevant to reproductive swarms - by far the most frequent and typically in a predictable three week period overlapping the start of apple blossom here. Weather might delay issue for another 2 weeks. Other, later swarms are generated by many causes - Overcrowding and absconds for multiple reasons are not repro swarms and are a separate discussion. Those swarms can happen any time.

Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> Other, later swarms are generated by many causes - Overcrowding and absconds for multiple reasons are not repro swarms and are a separate discussion. Those swarms can happen any time.
> Walt


Wait a minute, there is a way to tell the difference?



> Though we do it every Spring, unless we do things to interfere w/ the natural course of things.


That is my point. You can only study them once a year in the spring and that means there is no control because one year can be different than the other.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

A fascinating thread, particularily as we try understand what our bees did last summer, and what we can do to better manage them this year.

First, some background, our observations from the last summer. 2 hives, located in a holly farm, which is about 500 yards (gps says 520 meters) from our house, which is in a subdivision that covers the hillside above the holly farm. We hived 2 packages in the farm on April 19, into brand new boxes, with waxed plastic frames, and a top feeder. We started a third here at the house, but it's irrelavent to this discussion, newbie mistake on that one resulted in a dead queen a week later. As dilligent newbies, we followed direction from more experienced folks as best we could, so, we kept the feeders full, and, every second weekend, we went in and checked how the hives were doing. Within a day of hiving the packages, the bees were working the maples, about a hundred yards to the north, roughly 5 acres of maple trees. Long cold spring, so, the maples were very late this year, and, the apples to the west were in full bloom at the same time. We dilligently kept feed in the feeders, and watched our bees building comb on the new frames. So far, so good, and all of the more experienced folks kept telling us the same thing. When they are on 7 frames, add the second deep. Feed them to help with comb production, so, that's what we did. The field was alive with bees when the holly bloomed, and we were thrilled to see the first sign of capped honey, just above the brood, by the time they had built out 7 frames. We added the second box at that time, 6 weeks after we hived them. And, since they now had 10 empty frames, we put more feed into the top feeder. We did notice, a significant number of queen cells in the burr comb around the entrance to the top feeder, but, paid little attention because, experienced folks kept saying, new hive on bare frames, wont swarm in the first year, they are to busy getting established.

2nd week of june, we were somewhat disappointed, altho there were bees on the frames in the second box, no sign of any comb in the second box yet, but, lots of brood below, and the lower box was overflowing with bees, in both hives. The hive at the house wasn't doing so good, so, we stole a frame of brood from each, and used it to spike up the one at the house. So far, all is going according to plan. Looking at the frames in the boxes, there is some capped honey. When we stole the frame of brood, it came from the center of the nest, and, was replaced by a new empty frame. As newbies, we had no drawn comb to work with.

On Sunday of the third week of june, both hives swarmed, and both swarmed at the same time. How do we know this, we were there. Walking in to do the inspection, we saw a swarm hanging in one of the holly trees, about 50 feet from the hives. While I was shaking the swarm into a box, we watched the second hive swarm. We were not sure if we should be thrilled, because by the end of the day, we had caught two swarms, or if we should be disappointed, because both hives swarmed. It couldn't possibly be overcrowding, both boxes had an empty deep, full of frames, that they hadn't touched, and all of the more experienced folks said the same thing, new package on bare frames, not going to swarm in the first year. Yah, right. Wish you had told our bees that 

2 hives, side by side, both brand new on bare frames, and getting the exact same treatment for the entire time. They both swarmed at the same time. As I read thru the various things on this thread, and refer back to our notes, I notice lots of details, all of which point at what we did to trigger that event.

1) A very small amount of honey in both hives, most of which was at the top of the frames, above the brood.
2) Most of the experienced folks telling us there was a dearth between holly and blackberries, are farmers, farther out of town. They dont have a subdivision full of dandelions blooming in that period. Thanks to local ordinances, cosmetic pesticides are no longer allowed here, so, we had a bumper crop of dandelions going at the time. As well, the older gent that owns the holly farm, mows the grass under the trees thru the summer. Turns out, when you mow the dandelions before they go to seed, they promptly shoot up another bloom. Our bees were in the middle of 14 acres of dandelions, that kept on blooming.
3) The two hives are separated by about 6 feet, so the angle of the sun and trees means, they get direct sunshine at slightly different times. Hive 2 had swarmed when we got there, Hive 1 swarmed while we were there, and, about 20 minutes after the direct sunshine hit the hive. Direct sun would have hit the other one, about an hour earlier.
4) Both hives had significant burr comb in the top feeder entrance, and that comb was littered with queen cells, at least a dozen in each.
5) Both had essentially ignored the second deep when we added it, there was next to no comb in the second box.

So, now my thoughts on the original question. 

Is swarming a goal? Well, it must be, our bees had the deck stacked completely against them, starting off with nothing, yet, both hives threw a substantial sized swarm once conditions got good.

Is swarming triggered by stimulus? Our experience suggests, that applies too. Both hives got exactly the same stimulus the whole time, anything we did with one, we did with the other. The only difference, is due to physical placement and timing of direct sun, which differs by roughly an hour. The swarms came, roughly an hour apart, and both came about a week before the blackberries started blooming, we have a virtually endless supply of blackberries 1/4 mile to the east of those bees. Also keep in mind, these bees were southern hemisphere imports (new zealand packages with australian queens), so there was no way they could be 'tuned' to the local conditions for flow timing etc.

As I read thru this thread, and, all the discussions about the how and why of swarms, I do see one thing very clearly. Pretty much everything you folks mention as possible triggers etc for the swarms, we saw in our two hives this year. We saw a cap of honey over the brood nest, and thought nothing of it at the time. We saw considerable numbers of queen cells, in the burr comb at the top feeder entrance. But the most interesting thing I have realized, they built out the bottom box, ie built up a decent brood nest, at which point they stopped making comb, and even with the second box added, they were not making any new comb. They had feeders on, and, dandelions in full bloom. The only way they could have been storing nectar, was backfilling into that brood nest. Those bees had no inclination to start building up comb into which 'winter stores' would go, until after they had cast the swarms.

Long post I know, but, I thought it worthwhile to let some of you 'oldtimers' know, there are some of us reading with great interest, and, the discussions on swarming have enlightened us a lot, particularily the 'differences of opinion', which have given us plenty of food for thought going into next summer. The discussions here, have really helped us understand what happened in our hives, and, now we have a lot more 'knowledge' heading into next year, when we can hopefully get to the point where our bees are making honey, instead of 'more bees'. It's been most interesting to read the posts here, and refer back to our notes / recollections from the summer, and see just how well the points in this thread, line up with our observations over that year.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks for taking the time, good post.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

grozzie2 said:


> Those bees had no inclination to start building up comb into which 'winter stores' would go, until after they had cast the swarms.


If you are learning what would you do differently?


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> We did notice, a significant number of queen cells in the burr comb around the entrance to the top feeder, but, paid little attention because, experienced folks kept saying, new hive on bare frames, wont swarm in the first year, they are to busy getting established.


With the early NewZealand packages there is a much higher chance of the colony swarming particularly with constant feeding. Once they are in swarm mode they don't build much if any new comb until after the prime swarm has left and the population of the hive has bounced back which doesn't take long if there are no after swarms. Adding the second box when you did was a bit late. They seem to act more like an over wintered hive rather than a package. A local package that was made up a little later is not as likely to swarm in the same season but I wouldn't say that about an early 4lbs package of NewZealand bees. The over wintered hives around here will really explode in population starting around the end of April and swarm season will start about the last week in May through to the end of June as a general rule. So you can see that the NewZealand bees can easily get themselves into swarm mode if not encouraged into the second box early enough. Every year we see many NewZealand bees hanging in the trees because of that advice given to beginners.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Acebird said:


> If you are learning what would you do differently?


Hehe, thats pretty easy to answer, but, we have learned a few important bullet points.

1) Most of the experienced keepers in this area, are berry farmers, keep bees for pollination primarily blueberries. The blueberry farm has very different conditions than our location, only a few miles away, particularily with regards to about 500 acres of manicured landscaping in our subdivision. Flows in an urban / landscaped area are completely different than 'out on the farm'.

2) A swarm hived into the same kit as the packages (10 plastic frames in a deep) builds in a week, the same amount of comb built by the package in 6 weeks.

3) If we want to work on some of the prevention techniques presented here, we need comb, a resource we dont have much of at this point in time.

4) Overfeeding will indeed create swarms.

5) When it comes to rapid reproduction, bunnies have a lot to learn from bees....

Chris and I have two basic philosophies in our approach to everything. When life hands you a box of lemons, make lemonade. If you cant beat em, join em. So, we are going to take a slightly different tack this year, with hopefully decent results. After we did some combining in the fall, today we are sitting with 4 hives, 3 of which were quite strong going into the fall, one of which is just a single deep, but, we have other reasons for trying to get it thru the winter. All 4 had bees flying a few days ago, and, they got some sugar on the inner cover for 'christmas dinner'. Winter has been awfully mild, so, we are hoping all 4 make it thru. We do plan to do a small amount of 'stimulation' feeding this spring, and we will let the weather determine just when that starts. If it stays as mild as it has been, we would like to have the bees well into build up for maples, in the latter half of march.

But, this year, a few things different. Once the weather is warm enough that the bees are flying regularily, the feeders come off, and stay off. We will not be putting them back on after the bees switch to 'natural forage'. We dont have enough comb to do the types of manipulations we read about here, so, that's one of our goals for the upcoming summer, and, nothing builds comb like a fresh swarm. When we placed our bees on the holly farm, we were told about the spot in the trees where they traditionally put traps, and, have caught a couple swarms a year there, 18 of the last 20 years. We are putting traps out after apples, before the holly. Note, there is another lesson here, timing not by the calendar, but, by the blooms. The bees are 200 yards from a dozen apple trees, and in the middle of a couple hundred holly trees. There is no shortage of early forage. With last year as a guide, they should be 'swarmy' during the tail end of the holly.

If we dont have the resources to try prevent swarms, then we will set out the traps and try catching them. A fresh swarm = box of comb a couple weeks later, solves our problem of having comb available for doing manipulations. Last year, we were adverse to the concept of combining, thought it was great getting 'free hives' from catching the swarms, but, they didn't do that well, and only really boomed when we combined with the other weak hive. So, another lesson from that, if we catch a swarm, let them build the comb because we need it. After a couple weeks, find / remove the queen and get them combined with another hive in time for working the blackberries. One strong hive will put honey in the supers, two weak ones will not.

We went into year one with 3 hives from packages, not really knowing what to expect other than 'learn a lot'. Now we have started year two with 4 hives, that all seem to be wintering ok so far. We did get one unexpected side effect out of the first year, the berry crop on the blackberries beside our lot, about 4x normal, so, we have more blackberry jam than we know what to do with right now  For year two, we now have specific goals, and, thanks to lots of reading here, a gameplan to reach those goals. By this time next year, we want to have 4 hives, all of which are wintering in a configuration of 2 deeps with a medium of honey. We want to extract between 100 and 150 pounds for our own use, and, we want _at least_ one box of empty combs in storage for the deeps, so we have room to maneuver the following spring.

The bees want to swarm, and, we dont really have the resources to convince them otherwise. The only caveat to the plan now, when they swarm, convince them that nice box we have in the trees is the right place to go. If that happens, then, I think our goals for the next year are well within reach. If not, well, it'll be a learning year again for sure. After all, isn't that what hobbies are for, to help us exercise the grey matter and learn stuff ?


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Delta Bay said:


> Every year we see many NewZealand bees hanging in the trees because of that advice given to beginners.


Hehe. The cynic in me has sometimes wondered aloud, do the 'oldtimers' give this same advice year over year, simply because they want to head out and catch free bees regularily ? I laughed aloud the first time I read a comment here from one of the folks, to the effect of 'why buy packages, let the bee clubs do that, then set out the traps'.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

groz & Delta:
Interesting input, but I'm having trouble vizualizing enough burr comb at the entrance to the feeder (above a deep of foundation?) to support multiple queen cells. It's true that supersedure cells are often outside the queen's travel area, but swarm cells are mostly in the broodnest interior. Either type of Q cell needs to be kept warm. This implies a divided cluster. Is that what we're talking about?

Over feeding to the point creating a swarm is not unique to NZ packages. There have been several threads here on these forums in this past season where that was the case for starter colonies.

Walt

OOPS - a couple more posts while I was on the keyboard.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

grozzie2 said:


> we have more blackberry jam than we know what to do with right now


That my friend is impossible.
We have been planting blackberries and raspberries for two reasons. The bushes deter criminals that cut through fences and the jam is awesome.

My comment was meant for Gypsy but I enjoyed your answer. Have you thought about a net to catch the swarms like they did in the old days with skepts?


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> I'm having trouble vizualizing enough burr comb at the entrance to the feeder (above a deep of foundation?) to support multiple queen cells.


My guess would be grozzie2 was mistaking drone cells as queen as I wouldn't expect to see queen cells there. grozzie2 would need to confirm though.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

The feeders in question are the plastic inserts for a shallow, with the screen mesh in the center. In the mann lake catalog, it's the FD-110 unit. They went on when we hived the bees, and, the first comb they built, was in the entrance to the feeder, before they even got started on the frames.

I guess it's possible those were drone cells, but, they were fully formed, hanging vertical, and capped. Looked exactly the same as all the shots we find online of queen cells.



Acebird said:


> We have been planting blackberries and raspberries for two reasons.


Ace, you plant blackberries, intentionally ????? As in _on purpose_ ????? Thats a rather radical concept for us. We fight a never ending battle at the property line, trying to beat those things back, I bought a hedge trimmer specifically for that one purpose, mowing down the blackberries and tossing them back into the drainage ditch they keep growing out of.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> snip
> 
> We have been planting blackberries and raspberries for two reasons. The bushes deter criminals that cut through fences and the jam is awesome.


"Criminals" cut through your backyard? :no: 

Really? 

What sort of criminals, gnome snatchers?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

The eastern and western wild blackberries are quite different. The western is similar to the domestics sold by nursery sources. More robust, with longer canes that put down roots wherever the tip stays in contact with the ground. They encroach on surrounding area in large strides. The eastern BB is feeble by comparison.

Reflecting on the possibility that our bees have a survival mode unique to long, cold winters another thought comes to mind. Old literature, coming from the Northeast, talks about "whitening" of the queen cups, implying new wax is mixed in during development of swarm cells. We have seen quite a few swarm cells, but have not seen the whitening. Queen cells are constructed with old wax all the way, locally. Is this another clue to a difference in format? Maybe Mr. palmer sees this advertized whitening?

When I was studying the swarm process in the early 90s, the spring season was remarkably consistant, year to year. It had to be for me to pin down the timing of the sequence. In this period of cllimate change, where records are being tested or broken in temps and precip, it would be very difficult to get it done. But the sequence is still the same. The timing is shifting back and forth on the calendar, but the sequence order remains the same.

Walt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Old literature, coming from the Northeast, talks about "whitening" of the queen cups, implying new wax is mixed in during development of swarm cells. We have seen quite a few swarm cells, but have not seen the whitening. Queen cells are constructed with old wax all the way, locally. Is this another clue to a difference in format? Maybe Mr. palmer sees this advertized whitening?
> Walt


Not sure what they mean. I've seen "flakes" of white wax being dabbed on the outside surfaces of queen cups. Never really observed and don't know if there was already an egg in these cups or not. Now I've got something else to keep track of...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

grozzie2 said:


> I bought a hedge trimmer specifically for that one purpose, mowing down the blackberries and tossing them back into the drainage ditch they keep growing out of.


Well then you are planting them ... they are like star fish only worse. That is how they propagate. And yes we do. It is not hard for a criminal to cut through a page fence but they won't crawl though the prickers. You should only snip the ones that have fruit (after you pick the fruit of course). The following year the fruit will be on the left over shoots.

If you just hack the bush both the bees and the birds are left with nothing, assuming you don't pick the berries.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Back to the 'goal' thing: My 2 vol. World Book, which seldom fails me, defines goal (after all the sports uses) as 7. Figurative. a thing for which an effort is made; something desired. SYN: aim, end. While desired might imply conscious direction, end does not.

My take, as noted above, and dismissed by others, is that the swarm process is controlled by instinct. Stamped on their genes, there is no need to 'think' about it. Have often said it looks a lot like deductive logic (thinking) but that's bit of a stretch for an insect. It must be instinct. The honey bee is not the only insect with complex instincts. One of my favorites is the lowly mud dauber. They instinctively know where to find spiders to feed their young. The hangouts of the different spiders would fill volumes.

Does conscious planning really matter if the process is controlled by instinct? What IS remarkable, it that all the colonies in a given location are marching to the same drummer. Nobody knows what those cues are, But they all read them the same.

Walt


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i agree walt, my opinion is that we are dealing with semantics here. is (reproductive) swarming a goal? is sexual reproduction a goal? to me it's like asking if staying alive is a goal. although bees do exhibit altruism when it comes to guard bees, drones, and even over crowding swarms late in the season, ultimately their 'goal' is life. the fact that all colonies in a given location react in the same way also suggests to me that this goal is hard wired and nature's way of propagating this species.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wcubed said:


> My take, as noted above, and dismissed by others, is that the swarm process is controlled by instinct.
> 
> Walt


Makes sense to me. I wouldn't worry about being dismissed. You certainly don't expect everyone to agree on this, do you?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If everybody agreed you wouldn't have a forum. It would be so boring nobody would come back and beesource would not exist. The facts of life...


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## rharlow (Mar 20, 2011)

I agree with instinct! 

Some of this discussion is semantics, but some is also how information is presented. I guess my issue that I'm having a hard time grasping, and which lead to this post, is that it seems as though swarming is presented as the colony is always "planning" on doing this, and that things are done in the Fall, to prepare for them to swarm in the spring. In my mind, an instinctive action is triggered by something. For examples birds, migrating. When do they fly? In my mind, it is environmental stimuli, sun, moon, temp, etc, that triggers them to start flying. Some don't, like Robins here in Maine, but most do. 

With a colony, how do we know that in the Fall, they are instinctively prepare for swarming in the Spring? If we are managing hives in the Spring to prevent swarming, how is that counteracting against their activity in the Fall? Is their Fall activity meaningless? I see Fall activity as following their instinct to survive.

My opinion, which is not very experienced and again why I posted to seek input from those more experienced, is that the colony will indeed instinctively swarm in the Spring, but that this is triggered by certain stimuli, such as backfilling of the brood chamber. Some strains are more sensitive to this stimuli, and that would be why some strains tend to swarm more than others. If no stimuli presents itself, then the colony will not swarm. Non-repro swarms have their own set of stimuli, but stimuli nonetheless.

Forgive me if I've come across as dismissive, as I certainly would not dismiss you or anyone else, and certainly you, wcubed, with your experience!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good post chip, and thanks for starting this thread.

if evolution is geared toward reproduction, and that leads to instinctive behavoir beneficial for propagation if the species, and

if reproductive swarming in honeybees is part of that propagation strategy,

then wouldn't putting up a reserve of honey in the current year, that would be enough to get the colony through winter, allow a massive spring build-up, and enable a reproductive swarm to issue at the beginning of the main nectar flow...

be considered making preps this year for next year's swarm?

i don't know. and it's all conjecture anyway. does make sense though considering their 'instinctive' goal is to reproduce.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lets suppose a hypothetical ...

If you took a hive of bees and pulled out all the brood and then confined it to one box with a solid box of honey overhead would the hive swarm immediately or would it replace the brood, backfill and then swarm? Seeing as how I don't know I will take a stab at they will replace the brood before they swarm. If my guess is true than expanding the brood must be part of swarm prep and if it is false then it must not be part of swarm prep.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Chip:
By dismissed, I just meant that opposing opinions have been posted. Nobody has offended me. Since I live in left field, am accustomed to disagreement. In fact, on this thread was pleased that the disagreement didn't deteriorate to the personal attack stage.

In my writings we have assigned survival as priority 1 and reproduction as priority 2. Steps in the repro process insure existing colony survival - saving the reserve and backfilling are two of those insurance actions. So I don't see backfilling as a stimulous but as part of the repro process to protect parent colony survival. Mr Palmer doesn't see the reserve because it was consumed to survive the winter. That's what reserves are for.

Rob did say in the article in question that colony survival was a part of their quest for reproduction. If you look at it from the standpoint of multiple opportunities to reproduce, colony survival for several years gives them more chances. I've heard those horror stories about colonies 'swarming themselves to death', but think them extremely rare. They must be on the outer fringes of genetic diversity.

When Rob wanted to write an aticle in support of NM/CB, he was encouraged to put it in his own words - Don't quote me. It does not bother me at all if he chooses to elevate reproduction to Priority 1. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Walt


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Swarming is reproductive, which furthers species survival. So it is somewhat futile to prioritize and differentiate these processes, isn't it?

Natures goal is that honeybee colony reproduce by swarming.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't know Mark, procreating is my second priority ... it didn't use to be.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Lets suppose a hypothetical ...
> 
> If you took a hive of bees and pulled out all the brood and then confined it to one box with a solid box of honey overhead would the hive swarm immediately or would it replace the brood, backfill and then swarm? Seeing as how I don't know I will take a stab at they will replace the brood before they swarm. If my guess is true than expanding the brood must be part of swarm prep and if it is false then it must not be part of swarm prep.


Well of course. Bees with no brood are a swarm. Why would they swarm? Yes, expanding the broodnest must be part of the equation. There are other parts, too. So I ask, is the instinct to build population or to swarm? All healthy colonies build population. Not all populous colonies swarm. There has to be something other than some invisible instinctual desire to swarm. To me the instinct is to build population and that's all. Swarming isn't in the picture until the correct stimuli are present and then swarm preps start. Remove that stimulus...to me backfilling...and swarm preparations stop...but population continues to be built.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

rharlow said:


> I agree with instinct!
> I guess my issue that I'm having a hard time grasping, and which lead to this post, is that it seems as though swarming is presented as the colony is always "planning" on doing this, and that things are done in the Fall, to prepare for them to swarm in the spring.


I again agree with what Chip has said. I too find it hard to believe the bees start their swarm prepartations in the Fall. As I just said in another post...their "goal" is to build population, store honey, and survive the winter. Period. Yes they will swarm reproductively but a stimulus must be present. Is swarming their ultimate goal, or a goal of any kind? I don't think so. It's their instinct to swarm when the conditions are right, but not their goal.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I don't know Mark, procreating is my second priority ... it didn't use to be.


I didn't know you were a honeybee colony.


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## Matt NY (Jan 14, 2006)

I healthy mature organism (bee hive or a man) is consumed by the "thought" of procreation. The animal instinct of man, for example, is not thinking of starting a family; just getting a "date." 

I don't think it is healthy to keep an organism just short of its desired goals.

Man, as exampled, has developed, in a better bred lines, to consider other factors than just getting a "date." One may wish to have a good job, etc. before procreating. What we may consider to be simply social mores may in fact be an internal system of checks and balances that lead to procreation.

This system has been highly developed in honey bees, while it seems to be being bred out of man. Bee colonies that simply want a "date" just take off and swarm because it feels good. These don't have a high procreation rate. Colonies that have a developed system of checks and balances, queens fly farther to avoid mating with their close relations, have a much higher procreation rate overall and this trait is carried into the successive generations.

Trying to prove this, may take some long term studies, i.e. millennia. I feel more comfortable with "thoughts" such as these as oppossed to some of our current "scientific" honey bee studies that have such a tiny sampling and non-existent control group, because with bees that is next to impossible. Anyone that has kept bees for more than three minutes is aware that bee behavior is simply not that easy to predict. It is comfortable for us to believe that we "know" something, but we can only ever get a general idea. Maybe that's why I love beekeeping.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> I too find it hard to believe the bees start their swarm prepartations in the Fall.


I must have missed it. Where was the claim that they start in the fall? Don't most people agree the queen shuts down or nearly so and doesn't gear up again till at least mid winter?
I would like to understand this stimulus concept a little more. If the bees start backfilling and then you separate the brood chamber by putting drawn comb in do they stop backfilling or do they continue backfilling but there is more space to lay eggs? How far along can the swarm prep go and still be abandoned?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deleted


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I would like to understand this stimulus concept a little more. If the bees start backfilling and then you separate the brood chamber by putting drawn comb in do they stop backfilling or do they continue backfilling but there is more space to lay eggs? How far along can the swarm prep go and still be abandoned?


Almost to the point of the swarm leaving. If you have a colony that has just started cells...queen cups with an egg...they're easy to stop. Remove all cups, correct the problem...reverse, checkerboard I assume, spread the broodnest, etc. Even when there are unsealed queen cells present, the swarm hasn't left yet and the colony can be managed and most of the time they'll give up swarming. Not always. Colonies with cells must be checked again after managenment. If a colony has sealed queen cells it may be too late. The swarm may have left and whatever you attempt at this time you must see the queen before cutting cells, etc. I like Manley's approach to colonies with sealed cells. Too long to explain here.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>I like Manley's approach to colonies with sealed cells. Too long to explain here. 

where could one find manley's approach? looks like his books are on the rare list these days.

i have a book by another british beekeeper ted hooper, 'guide to bees and honey', circa 1976. he suggests removing queen cells once or twice and some colonies well abondon swarming. his method for expanding the brood nest was to move the larger frames of brood to the outside of the nest, and the smaller ones inside. he liked to keep the brood nest contiguous.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

duplicate


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

triplicate, sorry


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

You can find his book, at abebooks.com I've found a number of early printings or first editions in great shape at this site...trying to build my library. In the last few years I'v got both Manley's books, Snelgroves books first eds., Jay Smith's Better Queens first ed., CC Miller 50 Years Among the Bees, first ed...this was a tough find. These books are a bit expensive but I think a good investment. Fascinating reading.

Anyway, I looked at the section titled "swarming and summer work". Almost 50 pages. Too long to post.

_Honey Farming,_R.O.B. Manley, Faber and Faber, London, 1946


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sounds like manley might have been a comtemporary of hooper. as is the case today, mr. hooper discusses the myriad of opinions regarding bees, and of course is strongly voices his.

in your reply to ace, you mentioned removing queen cups, combined with frame manipulation, as a means to try and prevent a swarm.

do you routinely use this practice? and if so could you expound on it a little more?

i understand the need to see the queen first.

and at what stage would you not remove them? fully capped?

if you did remove, and go back in a week and find more, would you try again? 

do some of these colonies with sealed cells become nucs?

sorry, i know you didn't want to get overly invested in discussing this. i'll try to get my hands on manley's book. i'm mainly interested in how you personally approach it in your apiaries.

many thanks


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>squarepeg; sounds like manley might have been a comtemporary of hooper. as is the case today, mr. hooper discusses the myriad of opinions regarding bees, and of course is strongly voices his.

in your reply to ace, you mentioned removing queen cups, combined with frame manipulation, as a means to try and prevent a swarm. do you routinely use this practice? and if so could you expound on it a little more?<<

Yes, routinely. Empty queen cups aren't removed. Once there's an egg in a cup all are remove. This is combined with reversing. First week of May...before any Dandelion bloom, we super with two mediums of drawn comb. This handles the cluster and queen wanting to move up. Also overhead nectar storage when dandelion blooms. Once dandelion flow starts we reverse brood chambers. At this point some % of colonies will have cups with eggs or young larvae. The colony is taken apart, bees shaken off combs, and all cups and cells are removed. The colony is adjusted as seemingly required, excess combs of honey replaced with empty comb, queen's performance rated, frames of brood caouned, broodnest reversed, and additional super of comb beneath the two being filled, and another on top if necessary.

This is all that is required for most colonies. They go on to build big colonies and fill many supers if you super properly. Some wil persist. Manley goes back after 9 days. and requeens colonies that persist in cell building. 

Finding sealed cells is different. Difficult and dangerous to cut cells at that point. You must find the queen or because of large population and freshly layed eggs in just emerged brood you know there is probably a queen you can cut cells and manipulate colony. It's almost better at that point to make a nuc. Manley would cut all the sealed cells leaving a few young cells. The colony won't swarm with young cells, but may if you remove all cells. Manley says young cells hold them in the hive. Then he goes back 9 days later and starts his requeening. 

>>i understand the need to see the queen first.
and at what stage would you not remove them? fully capped?<<

Fully capped, nectar, not eggs going in recently emerged brood

>>if you did remove, and go back in a week and find more, would you try again?<<

I would try another approach . I don't often go back

>>do some of these colonies with sealed cells become nucs?<<

That's a good way


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very interesting michael, thank you for taking the time.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Manley goes back after 9 days. and requeens colonies that persist in cell building.


So is the queen a stimuli? That sounds like an urge to me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"Whether beasts think or not, it is positive that they conduct themselves in thousands of occasions as if they did think; the illusion in this matter, if it be an illusion, was well arranged for us. But without intending to touch upon this great question, and whatever be the cause, let us for a moment surrender ourselves to appearances and use every day language."—Jean Jacques Ortous de Mairan, 18th century naturalist


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

DO BEES THINK?
And we all know how stupidly bees and all animals can act at times. For example, how many times have you watched a bee bang his head against the pane of a half-opened window for an hour or so? He can't figure out that the clear pane is blocking his way to light and the outside. All he has to do is scoot over a little piece of wood to get free.


Here we human beings have a great advantage over bees. Man can always be progressing, while bee life will always remain the same. In the case above, if we were bees, when we realized that something or other was blocking our way out, we would immediately begin to try to discover another way out. In other words, we would begin to think and "figure". But bees never figure things out.

- THOMAS JANKOWSKI, C.SS.R.
Gleanings in Bee Culture - October, 1958


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Barry said:


> But bees never figure things out.
> 
> - THOMAS JANKOWSKI, C.SS.R.
> Gleanings in Bee Culture - October, 1958


Well, maybe. They certainly learn. Remove an upper entrance after the bees have been using it as their main entrance. It takes awhile for the old field bees to figure it out. Initially most of the bees probably find the bottom entrance by nassanov. But, come back in a couple days and see what they're doing. They approach the hive at the top, land, and crawl back down to the bottom entrance. If the bees could "think" wouldn't they think to themselves...nope we changed our entrance location...and approach the hive at the bottom? Rather than think, they learn...they "program" their neurons. Adding "walk down to entrance" at the end of the neuron sentence..."land at top of hive" is programming. Just like swarming. The colony is programmed to increase population, to store honey, and survive the winter. They're also programed to swarm when the stimuli are correct. It's programing and not goal.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

just reread this thread, pretty darn good one. jmho.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> DO BEES THINK?
> And we all know how stupidly bees and all animals can act at times. For example, how many times have you watched a bee bang his head against the pane of a half-opened window for an hour or so? He can't figure out that the clear pane is blocking his way to light and the outside. All he has to do is scoot over a little piece of wood to get free.
> 
> 
> ...


And yet we experienced this last two weeks in Washington? It isn't only bees that beat their heads against half closed windows.


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