# Splits or Nuc??



## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

I don't know if there is a difference in terms or if they are used interchangeably but....

Is there a preferred way to make more hives?

1. I have added a brood box to the *top* of a double brood box that was really doing well in spring. Then after several weeks I'd take the *middle* deep and set it up as a new hive and place the top one down on the main hive.

2. The second way is taking individual frames, etc and making a five frame nuc.

I've done the first way the most but would like to know the pro's and con's of both to each other.

Thanks!
Tanya


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Splits or Nuc
>I don't know if there is a difference in terms or if they are used interchangeably but....

A nuc is either the bees that make up a nucleus colony (a queen, some brood and some stores), or a smaller box like you would put a nucleus colony in. A split is when you make a new colony by taking resources from an existing one. This could be in a nuc box or it could be in a larger box. It could be only a few frames of bees and stores (a nuc) or it could be an even split where both get a lot of bees and stores.

>Is there a preferred way to make more hives?

That depends on what you have for resources, when you want to do it, what you want to end up with etc. You can buy packages if you want your current hives to have a shot at a good honey crop and you have the money to buy packages. You can do splits, if you don't mind less honey. Or you can try to time your splits well enough to get both honey and more bees.

>1. I have added a brood box to the top of a double brood box that was really doing well in spring. Then after several weeks I'd take the middle deep and set it up as a new hive and place the top one down on the main hive.

>2. The second way is taking individual frames, etc and making a five frame nuc.

They can both work.

>I've done the first way the most but would like to know the pro's and con's of both to each other.

A lot of the pros and cons have more to do with timing than with the method, but somewhat to do with methods:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm


Thanks!
Tanya


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

Thanks, Michael, for the reply.

Always, my bought packages have come too late for the spring flow and then they had been without a nectar flow to build up. So, my preference is to make splits or nucs. Of course, this can't always be done if I end up with little or no hives after winter.

I guess if the weather is good early I can do the nucs or splits and still get a good crop. There are so many variables.

Tanya


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## randydrivesabus (Apr 27, 2006)

you could try to find someone who sells nucs.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

randydrivesabus,

Yes, though it's not that easy here.

Thanks!
Tanya


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Tanya,

I do much the same as you discribe.

I split my strong in two, managing the bees and brood by the box first off. 
Next round I make up nucs from the stronger of the hives to help releave swarming pressures.

I need to do the splits basically becasue they are so quick and efficient.
I use to nuc everything, but it really took too much time. But it does equilize things out better.
Nucing out every hive sure set them back quit a bit compared to the take splits.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

Ian,

That's pretty much what I was thinking. It just seemed that I'd have a fairly strong hive from the split. Right now I've been told to keep my hives to four (though I hope to add a couple more sometime in the future) so that seemed to be the best way for me now.

I just wondered if the nucs had any other advantage over splits. So you're saying that you make nucs mainly to stop swarming. Right?

Thanks!
Tanya


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Beekeeping is like staying married. You not only need a huge bag of tricks, but you have to figure out which one is appropriate for the current problem.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

If you want to get a crop from your primary spring flow, you can do a few things to help this happen. If you are looking to perform an "early" spring split or divide, you want to get them moving and motivated. 
I start stimulative feeding toward the end of February. This gives me about (3) brood cycles before I make my splits / divides up toward the later part of April. Our swarm seasons starts around the middle of May. My queens will emerge and be ready for mating flights around the time that the hives are swarming.

Taking the queen, open brood/ eggs (except (1) frame), and making up a nuc, or split. They need to have stores / resources and be feed. This colony will rear brood and produce a crop from the summer and fall flows.
Then leaving any capped brood, (1) frame with eggs, and foragers in place, will give you a colony they will have the resources to rear a queen, but with very little brood to care for, all of the forages and their work efforts are stored for "future" brood rearing. You could take a crop from this.
This colony will produce an early and late summer / fall crop.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

MountainCamp,

One question- since you are in my general area, what method do you use for the February feeding? Sugar water in a super over the brood nest? 

Thanks for the information.

Tanya


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I set all of my hives up for winter with an empty box on top, then the inner & outer cover, and wrap with felt paper.
The empty box allows for: 
-fall feeding with inverted syrup jars, 
-Setting up paper and granular sugar
-Checking the cluster's status and stores, without disturbing them
-Simulative feeding in late winter.
Here are some pictures of what I do.
http://www.mountaincampfarm.com/wst_page5.php


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

MountainCamp,

I have never wrapped my hives so don't know if it would do any better than without...

In your photos there is quite a mound of granular sugar. Do you put this in in the fall or is this the February stimulus? Do you ever find that some of the granular sugar is later extracted and remainded granular?

Thanks for the photos!
Tanya


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Wrapping is for wind protection and solar gain. 

I place the granular sugar in late fall and it stays on till spring. It absorbs moisture and is used a feed by the colony.

I don't know how stimulative granular sugar is, most likely on par with granular honey. They will use it while rearing brood, but it does not get them in the spring build up mode.

I feed light syrup / pollen substitute to get them moving and building for spring.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

MountainCamp,

Thank you for the information.

I had wondered how helpful granular sugar would be without a water supply. You answered my "wonder". 

Tanya


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

In my mind, a nuc is just a small split. Whether you decide to do a full split or pull out a nuc depends on how strong the hive is. If you have a strong hive, pull a nuc. A really strong hive, do a split, or pull out two nucs.

One disadvantage of of making a nuc is that you will probably end up putting the bees in a special box for a while; either one that has some kind of follower board or a special smaller box. Although, I know you can put five frames of bees in a full size box and they will probably do OK most years if the weather isn't too bad.

I think the number of hives you want to have is determined by how much you want to invest in extracting. Four strong hives can produce a lot of frames of honey for a hobbiest and more than that can become a lot of work unless you upgrade to some more expensive equipment. A hundred frames in a two or four frame hand crank extractor involves a lot of time and effort.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya, I just pull brood frames from some of the over strong hives to help equilize things out better, giving the frames to smaller hives, or making up nucs if I have extra.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

It is a matter of semantics. 
When I make a split it may be a nuc if I take the queen, but the other half is a queenless split.
Same thing when I do a divide, but if I have a very strong early hive that I break up into several units, then I have a nuc, and multiple queenless splits.
Now, if I bought queens, and set them all of with various stage of brood, and ages of workers, then I would have made multiple nucs.
A divide can be a split, and a split can be a nuc. They are all splits, but without purchasing queens they all can not be nucs.


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## golddust-twins (Sep 8, 2007)

Moutaincamp,

How much granulated sugar do you put in the hive in the fall? Sounds like a great idea.

Corinne


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I place a 5# bag or two onto the paper and add more as required.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

A nucleus is "something regarded as a basis for future development and growth."
If I make up a four frame nuc and let them make their own queen, it is still a nuc though it is temporarily queenless. 

>They are all splits, but without purchasing queens they all can not be nucs.

I know it is a matter of semantics but I do believe that if you make up a nuc and let it make its own queen or give it a queen cell it is still a nuc because it is "a basis for future development and growth." Part of the "future development and growth" involves the rearing of a queen if there is not one present.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuc#Nuc_Creation


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

The definition that you provided starts as follows:

*"Nucs*, or Nucleus Colonies, are small honey bee colonies created from larger colonies. The term refers both to the smaller size box and the colony of honeybees within it. The name is derived from the fact that a nuc hive is centered around a queen - the nucleus of the honey bee colony."


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

Yes I seen that but it also reads, "A nuc may or may not be given a queen at the time it is created." This can be found under the section entitled, "Nuc Creation." 

ALL colonies are centered around queens. Does this mean that your overwintered colony in two deeps is a nuc too because it is centered around a queen? 

>They are all splits, but without purchasing queens they all can not be nucs.

What if you raise your own queens or use a queen cell? You did not purchase these. Since these were not purchased, is it still a nuc if you use them? 

>The definition that you provided starts as follows:

"Nucs, or Nucleus Colonies, are small honey bee colonies created from larger colonies. The term refers both to the smaller size box and the colony of honeybees within it. The name is derived from the fact that a nuc hive is centered around a queen - the nucleus of the honey bee colony."

You need to look at this a little closer. "The term refers both to the smaller size box and the colony of honeybees within it." Though it derives from the fact that a colony is centered around a queen, a queen being present is not a requisite as to defining a colony as a nuc.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Call it what you want,

When I divide my colonies between two boxes, by taking one away, I call it a split. Well becasue that is exactly what I have done. Split the colony.

When I make up one or several nucs out of the colony, regardless the strength I leave the mother hive, I call them nucs, because that is exactly what I have done. I have arranged several smaller hives from one larger one.

If you buy the queen, or cell the hive, or let them make their own, makes no difference in definition. They are not left in the state of queenlessness or in the process long enough to make any difference. They all are made up to hold a queen.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I really don't care what anyone calls anything to be honest. 

My definition of a nuc is a small queen right colony. Anything thing that is not queen right at the time of the split is not a nuc.

If you want to "buy" a nuc from someone and add your own queen, or them them try and rear their own, knock yourself out.

If you want to call a queenless split a nuc, great - have at it.

Because a colony is queenless until the queen emerges and they are not queen right till she is mated and laying workers.


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## carbide (Nov 21, 2004)

Sr. Tanya

I do basically the same thing that you do in making splits and nucs.

1. I place a deep brood box on top of my double deep box hives that are doing well in early spring. When I do this, I take two brood frames from the top box of the double deep and place them in the center of the added third box. I fill the top third box with either drawn comb or foundation, whichever I happen to have on hand. I move the frames in toward the center of the second box and put one replacement frame on the ends to fill this box. After two weeks I pull the center box just as you do and make a new hive with it. I drop the top box (the third one) down on top of the bottom box to complete the original hive. If the queen happens to be in the split that I have created then it will grow quickly and will normally produce a honey crop by the fall. If the queen remains in the original hive then the new split will create a queen and may produce some surplus honey by the fall depending on conditions. 

2. I built a number of nuc boxes last year so that I could create nucs from those hives that I feel aren't quite strong enough to make splits as described above. When I create the nucs I pull two or maybe three brood frames from two different hives and put them in the nuc boxes. I find the queen in the original hives before I do this to make certain that she doesn't go into the nuc accidently. After the nuc creates it's own queen and they fill out the nuc box I will transfer them into a regular hive body to begin the growth necessary to make it through the following winter.

I normally do method 1. around the first weekend in April. Method 2. I do any time I get a hive that looks like it may be getting a bit too crowded and may be preparing to swarm.


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

Gosh Mountaincamp, you've convinced me that I want to adopt your terminology, but it leaves me with a dilema. If I continue to pull five frames from a colony and put them in a new, five frame box and allow them to raise their own queen, I don't have a name for that type of setup. 

Maybe I'll call it a Fifraques (Five Frame Queenless Split). It looks French. Maybe someone can give me a good pronounciation. Hey, the word would also work for a four frame queenless split.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

If it is queenless at the time of making it up, it is a split.
Call it a Nuc once they are queen right.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

Carbide,

Thanks for your experience. When I've done the first mentioned procedure-- I call it a split  (oh well), I have found that I can still get some spring/summer honey from, at least, the main hive. Of course, it all depends on the season!!

I appreciate some of the clarifications and your timing.

Tanya


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

> If it is queenless at the time of making it up, it is a split.
> Call it a Nuc once they are queen right.


Oh alright.  But I was really becoming fond of my new pseudo french word.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Alright, Alright ... I will bow out and we will adopt the new term.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

MountainCamp,

I am grateful to you for clarifying the terms- When I remove the middle brood box and drop the top one down, I really don't know if the queen is in the old hive or the new single one. I just make sure that both have newly laid eggs so the one without a queen has the means to raise a new one.

I was calling the *technique* a "split" as opposed to taking out individual frames to make up a new hive.

However, I do see what you're saying- Thanks!!

Tanya


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

Sr. Tanya,

All joking and wrestling about words aside, it sounds like you've learned what works and are making good progress. That's what counts. I wish you the best of luck.

Also, all kidding aside again, I've found that when MountainCamp speaks, it's time to listen.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

When I remove the middle brood box and drop the top one down, I really don't know if the queen is in the old hive or the new single one. I just make sure that both have newly laid eggs so the one without a queen has the means to raise a new one. 

When you remove the middle box...

Shake out all the bees from the middle box. Put the rest of the hive back together with an excluder on top. Place your middle box and combs on excluder overnight. Your split won't have the queen, and you won't have to check which section has eggs.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

MountainCamp said:


> I set all of my hives up for winter with an empty box on top, then the inner & outer cover, and wrap with felt paper.
> The empty box allows for:
> -fall feeding with inverted syrup jars,
> -Setting up paper and granular sugar
> ...


MC, you leave that empty box and all that sugar on the bees all winter? Why not just feed them what syrup they need in October? Doesn't that sugar keep them active all winter long? I guess it works for you, but it seems like an awful mess.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Michael,
I leave the empty box and sugar on till spring and good foraging weather returns.
I do feed in the fall, the granular sugar / paper is cheap insurance and it actually serves several purposes. Granular sugar and paper absorb moisture. This absorbed moisture does not fall back on to the cluster getting them wet.
Moisture that is not absorbed but rises above the granular sugar and condenses on the top of the hive, will fall back onto the sugar and not on to the cluster.
Moisture that moves around the sugar pile and condenses on the box sides, can be used by the cluster to make use of their stores. or rolls down and out of the hive.
The granular sugar / paper on the top bars also is feed for the colony and they can use it as a cluster. Where ever that cluster is located in the hive.
As far as keeping them active, when the cluster is located lower in the hive, they access the sugar and use it as stores when the temps allow. Later in the season and they have moved vertically and are clustered under the sugar, they are able to use the sugar as stores. As far as brood activity, I have not seen that it has any measurable effect.
Emergency feed on top of the inner cover only allows access through the hole, so clusters located anywhere away from the hole has difficulty accessing the feed.
By spring most of the sugar is either consumed or harden from moisture absorption and release. I usually don't lose much sugar when taking what's left off and what is, the bees clean up.


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

The best way to make a split is in the spring when the bees are producing lots of queen cells. Go into the hives you like, cut around all the queen cells and hang these in between two top bars of the middle frames you take with brood in them from your other hives. The bees and brood from these other hives will protect this queen cell until it emerges. Wait for it to get mated and come back and lay. Then, the hive will build up fast with a young queen and make you honey that year.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

*Hillside*,

Yes, I do listen to MountainCamp, for the same reason.

*CSbees and Michael Palmer*,

Thanks for the added information- it all helps.

*MountainCamp*,

I was wondering why you added the sugar to the top bars and under the inner cover... Do you do it this way even when the two brood boxes are full in the fall?

Thank you everyone!! 
Tanya


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Tanya,
I add the granular sugar / paper on the top bars only. Sugar on the inner cover does work most of the time, but I found that a cluster in late winter on the south side of the hive for solar gain, was not able to access the inner cover hole and hence the sugar was of no use to them.

I unfortunately many time have to do my beekeeping actives when I can - Not when it all should be done. Too much work between jobs. The granular sugar is just insurance for stores, and helps with moisture. It is very simple and fast. An empty box, some paper, and sugar, and your done.

In fact I just finished checking some of my hives at home. They all have had granular sugar on paper for about 3 weeks. Some hives have barely touched the sugar while others have already gone through almost 15 lbs of granular sugar. That equates to about 20 lbs of stores.

As with all of beekeeping you need to find what fits your style, objectives, and location, then run with it.

Good luck,


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

*About queens in spring*

CSbees,

You mentioned hanging queen cells inbetween the two middle bars--
Could you explain a little more about this? How are they attached, what direction, I'm presuming this is one queen cell to a box.

I'll check to see if there are any photos on the various list sections for this. I'm a visual person... 

Thanks!
Tanya


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

MountainCamp,

One other question- Is there any particular type of paper to use for the sugar addition?

Thank you!
Tanya


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I use either paper towel or newspaper. Paper towel seems have the advantage of being more absorbent and easy to chew through. But, Newspaper works well also.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

MountainCamp,

I'll try the paper towels. From your photos it looks as though you didn't cover the whole top of the bars but used about 1/2 to 3/4 of the surface. I have my sugar but night is falling and the next several days will be wet and much colder.

Is there any time when this shouldn't be added weatherwise?

Thanks!
Tanya


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I would not try it in a heavy rain.
If it is damp and cold they may just be cranky.
If they come up on the top bars to see what you are doing smoke them down.
I try to keep a little space front and back and tend to cover them side to side. 
You can also sprinkle some syrup onto the sugar, paper, and top bars to get them started.
Good Luck,


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

MountainCamp,

I put the sugar on the first hive this morning- thanksgiving day. The other two hive are quite heavy with stores of honey so didn't add any there. But next year I think I'll do it for all the hives. I sort of "borrowed" the sugar from the kitchen stores... 

I was wondering if you'd ever tried to add the sugar during a winter thaw- around Jan or Feb? Just in case the bees stores are low?

Thanks!
Tanya


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

With the empty box on top, I pop tops through the winter to check status and add sugar as needed.
A quick look even with temps in teens has not cause any problems.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

Thanks, that makes it easier. My sugar was not in chunks but I wonder if that would be better for them to climb through?

Tanya


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Sr. Tanya

This technique that I use is:

1. Finding queen cells in hives that have an insatiable swarming tendancies
2. I do not destroy but rather cut them out with a short bladed carving knife or serated knife.
3. I take 2 frames of brood and a frame of honey from fortunate colonies in March/April.
4. I put these 3 frames in a deep with the rest of the other frames with foundation
5. The FRAGILE queen cells I then insert in between the 2 middle frames of the split
6. The taperedness of the cells allows them to hang between
7. The comb around the cells you cut out can also be pressed down on the top edge of the frame, anchoring it.

The queen will hatch out become mated and start laying. This technique is the easiest I know of short of installing a queen in a cage into the nuc.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

CSbees said:


> This technique that I use is:
> 1. Finding queen cells in hives that have an insatiable swarming tendancies


How long have you been using swarmy colonies for rearing your queen cells? Don't you think you are selecting for bees that have a high inclination for swarming? I remember a beekeeper in Vermont (500-1000 colonies), gone now and his sons sold the operation after if piddled away. In swarming season, you could always find swarms around his yards.

Brother Adam, in his book "Bee-keeping at Buckfast Abbey," selected for 4 primary qualities. Number 4 was Disinclination to swarm. 

Disinclination to swarm:
"A highly developed disinclination to swarm is doubtless an indispensable prerequisite in modern beekeeping; when bees were kept in skeps the primitive way, the reverse was the case, for swarming was then the only means colonies could be propagated and multiplied. In modern beekeeping swarming not only causes untold extra work and loss on the part of the bee-keeper, but is also often responsible for a serious reduction in the amount of honey a colony produces. Indeed a race or strain of bee endowed with every desirable trait but given to swarming, will from the strictly practical point of view, prove of little value, for all the qualities of economic importance will be dissapated in idle swarming. The case of the Swiss cross already cited is a classical example.
While a truly non-swarming bee is almost certainly beyond our reach, strains which will normally only swarm in exceptional circumstances are undoubtedly possible, are in fact already at our disposal. Further progress in the direction of a non-swarming strain seems merely a matter of time and perseverence." 

Some will say that swarming can not be controlled through selection. Don't believe it. Aren't some races more inclined to swarm than others? AI Root once said that his Caucasian bees would, "Swarm at the drop of a hat." Couldn't this be considered a genetic trait. Why is it that some colonies will swarm as soon as they are populous, while othere will not, even when overcrowded on a strong flow.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

CBbees,

Thank you for the details. They are much appreciated.

Tanya


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

CBbees,

Are your frames 10 or 9 to a box? This is regarding adding the queen between the frames. Would she fit between a 10 frame box?

I don't know the pro's and con's about swarmy colonies as Michael Palmer mentioned. Mine aren't that swarmy but if I have one that made it through in good numbers they do build up quickly and there can be several queen cells to add to a split.

Tanya


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

For one my bees have been "swarmy" ever since I got them from the beekeeper I bought them from. I like them swarmy. Usually swarmy bees are extreemely healthy and have high populations. I also am expanding from 1 last year to near 20 for next year. One can also make (from my experiences) just as much honey from an early swarm as an established colony. Swarms are more motivated. If you know what to do with your swarms they can bee real honey producers. My first swarm produced 3 supers from foundation in the spring and 6 in the summer location. Swarming is not my favorite thing to want to have in my bees, however, my bees already have a high inclination to swarm anyways. No need in stopping what is already very prevalent.

I use 10 frames to a brood box however, lately 9 with a spacer seem to be more convenient and give you more room to inspect. Definately 10 in early spring to have the extra food frames to make splits but maybe 9 is a better idea.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

Under certain conditions all bees will swarm whether or not they are extremely healthy or have a high population. Afterswarms have little to do with high populations as a large percentage of the population has left in the primary swarm. Some colonies will swarm themselves to death and you should definitely not be breeding for this. An experienced beekeeper will manage his or her colonies in such way as to have a colony disinclined to swarm. 

Has anyone else on this forum had a swarm that produced 9 supers of honey the same year that you hived the swarm? I have gotten a couple of supers off of a swarm the same year but nothing near nine. Maybe with some checkerboarding and some drawn comb I could get that much from a colony during a good year. Just because I haven't gotten nine supers off a swarm does not mean that you haven't, but I would like to hear from others who have had an outstanding performance from a swarm like you have. 

You're going the wrong way with the frame numbers. You should be thinking more about eleven than nine per box. The bees like their brood combs closer together than what is provided with using 9 frames. The reason people use nine frames is typically in honey supers so the comb gets drawn out farther and they are easier to uncap. On a brood frame, the cells that contain brood are only drawn out so far. If you're using nine frames and the bees want to use a frame that previously had stores in it they have to chew the cell walls down for the brood. You created more work for your bees that they wouldn't have had to do with ten frames.

Sr Tanya, if you are worried about the queen cells hanging from between the top bars, you can get some top bar cell protectors. http://www.mannlakeltd.com/search_r...xtsearchParamVen=ALL&txtFromSearch=fromSearch
I've had good luck just cutting out a small area of comb to put the queen cell in. The bees will attach it rework the comb to hold the queen cell quickly.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

Have you tried both of those queen cell protectors? Are they able to accept any variation in the queen cells shape? Actually I don't mind just attaching the queen cell either between the frames on the top or on the face of the comb. I just didn't want to squeeze her or have her drop off before the bees anchor her.

Thank you!
Tanya


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

I would also appreciate some guidance on how those push-ins are used. Does the cell, carefully cut from the comb, get slid in the top of the push-in so the cell's cap (at the bottom) just pokes through? Can any capped cell be done thusly, and what care needs to be taken? 

Maybe I just need to boost the library with a queen-rearing book .


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

WVbeekeeper said:


> Under certain conditions all bees will swarm whether or not they are extremely healthy or have a high population. Afterswarms have little to do with high populations as a large percentage of the population has left in the primary swarm. Some colonies will swarm themselves to death and you should definitely not be breeding for this. An experienced beekeeper will manage his or her colonies in such way as to have a colony disinclined to swarm.
> 
> Has anyone else on this forum had a swarm that produced 9 supers of honey the same year that you hived the swarm? I have gotten a couple of supers off of a swarm the same year but nothing near nine. Maybe with some checkerboarding and some drawn comb I could get that much from a colony during a good year. Just because I haven't gotten nine supers off a swarm does not mean that you haven't, but I would like to hear from others who have had an outstanding performance from a swarm like you have.
> 
> ...


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

CSbees said:


> To respond, I will swear on the number of 9 shallow supers produced this year by my first swarm.


CSBees, I'm not disputing that it happened. I was wanting to know if anyone has had this amount of surplus from a swarm to see if maybe we could get some extradornary queens to mate and breed from, if anyone would be interested.



CSbees said:


> I do use in most of my hives 10 frames from brood but have been reading literature from Walt Wright the advantages of using 9.


I guess I need to read up on Walt's broodnest management some more for setting it up for checkerboarding the supers. I seemed to have missed that part.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

WVbeekeeper said:


> I guess I need to read up on Walt's broodnest management some more for setting it up for checkerboarding the supers. I seemed to have missed that part.


My understanding was that if you run 10 in the brood nest, but then go to 9 in the supers, some of the super frames are centered over the gap between the brood nest frames. I would think the bees would just clamber up regardless, but...


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

WV beekeeper, 

I bought a 4 frame nuc from this beekeeper down here for $50. His bees are extrordinary. He does not medicate for mites and very rarely with antibiotics. His bees are healthier than any I've seen. This was my first hive that I have split off of once, then were the 2 swarms. The other swarm never had enough time to get built up. However, I am set that these bees which he has engineered are what may keep the bee from going extinct. Look under the archives of the American Bee Journal for Walt's article.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

CSbees said:


> WV beekeeper,
> 
> ... Look under the archives of the American Bee Journal for Walt's article.


 
From Roy:

Actually, the best source for Walt's articles is now here, on this site. Check out Walt's area in POV

http://www.beesource.com/pov/wright/index.htm

The article you want is article #25 "Nine Frame Brood Chamber, Never!"

The title is a little misleading, it is a qoute from another beekeeper to illustrate the prevailng opinion. Walt's opinion is the opposite.

Roy, for me.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Has anyone else on this forum had a swarm that produced 9 supers of honey the same year that you hived the swarm? I have gotten a couple of supers off of a swarm the same year but nothing near nine

Yup, I caught a swarm that built out five deep boxes, in about two weeks!
Came back to it that fall and it was queenless, probably the reason why it put so much into building out the foundation. I figure I had caught two or three swarms that came together. 

It was a real fun catch! Kind of disapointed finding it queenless. But it boosted a smaller swarm I caught in the same yard and helped it make winter.


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