# THEY ARE MAD! New guy here



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I don't know what kind of equiptment you have but maby find some way to give them some sugar water inside the hive. I am new myself though and have never dealt with anything like that.
Good luck. Be nice if you friend that gave you the bees had a good top feeder that might hold a couple of gal. Then you could do it once and then stay away from them for a week and see if it helped thier attitude.
gww


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

My suggestion is to allow them to settle down. I know that it is very tempting to go work your bees, but it probably is not wise right now. Not sure I understand what you mean by "trying to swarm." I am guessing they were not actually trying to swarm. Also, isolating the queen isn't going to settle them down. Right now, your sole goal should be to get them to accept their new home, start drawing comb and laying eggs. Rifling through them will do nothing but discourage that. Keep them fed and leave them alone for at least a week. You probably have some nectar flowing in your area right now, so do not be surprised if they do not accept much syrup. I would put my suit on and go check the entrance. Look for bees coming back to the hive with pollen on their hind legs. That would be a good sign. But stay out of the hive.


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## gtwarren1966 (Jul 7, 2015)

Beebomb123 said:


> To start, I have never kept bees before. I'm a 19yo student, so I have been doing this as cheaply as possible. Attended my local bee club last thursday, met a guy who hooked me up with bees last night. Gave me a 5 gallon bucket full of 4pounds of Russian swarm with their queen. Dumped them in their top bar last night, gave them feed, and left them alone. Woke up to them trying to swarm again today, and I attempted to locate the queen and isolate her in a jerry rigged queen-clip to attempt to calm her down. Couldn't find her, swarm got mad, and I got stung. Now, hours later, they are literally dive bombing my face 80 yards away from their hive in my drive way. I can't even stay outside longer than 5 mins or they chase me. I'm pretty freaked out, not going to lie. I live in northern georgia, so I'm pretty sure they wouldnt be africanized. Especially since they were given to me from a local beekeeper, of which his hives produced this swarm. They are still going nuts around the the hive. He said he thinks they are russian, if that helps at all. Please folks, I'm a complete noob at this, very enthusiastic and hopeful, but this has got me stumped. Any help is very much appreciated.


1. Get a good bee suit.
2. You don't 'calm down' a queen. Maybe they didn't like your tbh as I don't recall you putting any brood in there to anchor them.
3. Let them calm down on their own, stay out of the hive.


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## mlanden (Jun 19, 2016)

when in doubt, leave them alone. Have you read the lit on beekeeping (how to install, when/how to feed, proper inspection, etc, etc)? I started last year -- was afraid, too, mine were swarming for a few days after installation. Nope -- they were just orienting themselves to their new digs.

Odds are you were coated in "alarm pheromone" during your foray into the hive the 1st time and didn't get rid of it before your next trip in -- that let the girls know you were the marauder from last time. They can detect that for distances. Elephants and bees never forget. Major learning curve a'comin' ...... I'm still going through it after a year. And will be, probably, the rest of my life. Couldn't ask for more.


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## Jim Hancock (Dec 30, 2016)

I'm new also. I got 2 nucs on Friday and opened the entrance on Saturday morning. I had a lot of activity at the entrance and thought I had a robbing situation but it was only orientation flights. Saturday afternoon I walked out to see what was going on and had a bee fly right out and she nailed me in the eyebrow while I was 30 - 40 feet away and she chased me to the house 50' away. Sunday I moved them into their new homes and it was like night and day as far as nasty. They were like a different colony. 
All I can offer is my experience that they get better once they settle in. Good luck and stay safe for a couple of days.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Does your TBH have a screened bottom? What makes you think they're swarming? The first orientation flight of a swarm can look pretty darn swarm-like to a new beekeeper.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource, _Beebomb123_!

In addition to the comments above, do you have a smoker? 

Smoke interferes with the bees' ability to communicate via alarm pheromones, which slows down their reaction to an intruder (you).

Also, if you got stung through your clothes, those clothes may now carry some distinct (to a bee) smells that get them after you. Wear different clothes, and preferably _not_ dark colored clothes.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Thank you all for your quick replies, I sincerely hope I don't sound like someone who purposely half*ssed this, as I really do enjoy insects of all kinds, and especially bees. I get a lot of enjoyment out of animal husbandry in general. The truth is, I have zero carpentry experience, and I don't have anyone to teach me, (although I want to learn) so the hive turned out faarrr from optimal. Uneven, a few gaps in the dividers, and generally not very sightly. Old unpainted plywood, if you are wondering. And yes, the hive has a screen bottom. Im teaching myself as I go. I wish I could've done all of this exactly by the book, but bee equipment, hives, etc. are pretty expensive. I simply don't have the money, yet I finally have the time and a property to put them on (complete with a big vegetable garden! ) so I'm doing the best I can. As for messing with the hive anymore, when they initially began getting pissed and stung me, I became considerably nervous, swept the bees off the rim of the hive as to not squish them, and just placed the lid back on top, without placing the top bars back on. Should I just leave them be for a few days without the top bars, or should I place them back on, then leave them for a while? Also, when I said "swarming again", I guess the right term to use would've been absconding, I believe. I've heard that newly installed swarms into places that've never been lived in by bees previously, can sometimes fly away; I read that one way to help discourage that is to lock the queen down for a few days in a queen clip, to encourage them to settle in.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

@Raider Sidetrack
Atm, I do not have a smoker. My hive was ready, I had purchased a bee drawstring-hat-veil, had my feeder ready to go, and a spritz bottle with sugar water. Guy texted me, let me know he had swarm, and I headed over. Long story short, he did a real solid for me, and it was an opportunity I couldn't pass up. I walked away with roughly 3-4 pounds of russians, from a solid, local hive, free of charge. Otherwise, I wouldve waited till I found a deal on a smoker. Also, is it possible to just wash the clothes I was wearing to rid myself of the pheremones? These are the only light colored, long sleeved clothes I have atm. I jumped at the opportunity to get these guys, since all of the local breeders are sold out. I really, really don't want to loose them!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Yes, washing those clothes should take care of that pheromones issue.

As far as the smoker, have I got a thread for _you_ ....  
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?214110-homemade-bee-smoker

You will get comb built hanging from the lid if you don't put the bars back in the TBH. That will lead to additional problems in the future if you ever open that hive again. So either put the bars back in, or be prepared to do a cut-out later. 

A cut-out with frames is one thing, the trimmed comb can be rubber banded into a foundationless frame. With a TBH, since there is not a frame that won't work. One scheme is to use bent fence wire to hang comb underneath a bar, a la ...









Photo linked from this thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291205-19-quot-top-bar-hives


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

I just took this pic 3 minutes ago,they seem to have calmed down quite a bit, but they are hanging on the edge. A whole lot of them...


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

You need to use smoke even if going cheap. For now you can make smoke in a metal container (watch for burns) until you get one. They are cheap so buy one soon. 

Glad to see youngsters learning this wonderful hobby. Best wishes and keep us posted.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

I plan on getting my hands on one asap. Just keeping my fingers crossed that these guys don't skidaddle.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beeb....
I made a smoker with stove pipe and duct tape for the bellows. I used it my first year and it was ok but a little akward to use. I finaly bought a $26 large one off ebay and it is great compared to what I made but what I made did work ok. I would rig something up cause MY OPINION smoke is good.

Mine are a little testy right now due to getting into them too much and making a couple splits and fixing wonky comb and such. Luckily it is usually just one or two bees at a time buzzing me. We have a flow on and before I tore into their nest a couple of days in a row, they were pussy cats. I agree with the guys saying have your top bars in if you don't want a mess. No garrentee they will stay, but if you get them in the hive and let them be for a week, I bet they do. Some guys use chicken feeders in top bar hives to feed sugar water.
Good luck
gww
Good luck.
gww


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## mlanden (Jun 19, 2016)

Beebomb123 said:


> View attachment 32401
> 
> I just took this pic 3 minutes ago,they seem to have calmed down quite a bit, but they are hanging on the edge. A whole lot of them...


To this semi-beginner, that looks like "bearding" -- sort of like the bees sitting on the front porch to cool off on a hot day. Not unusual at all, from what I've seen/heard, esp. if the weather's warm in GA. Seems sort of early to me, but .... I don't know fersher.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Just got back from one of my mentors properties, and he said it might just be bearding as well. Going to grab or make a smoker tomorrow, and try to find some beeswax to put on the top bars to help with guiding their combs. As of now, the bars are totally bare. Thanks for all the advice guys! I'll update you all tomorrow once I know more.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Lmao


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> yes, the hive has a screen bottom.


 asuming you don't have pull out boad and the screen is open to the out side ASAP Cardboard and duct tape that SBB closed at least till they settle in and have some brood to anchor them.
get 10-15 of those top bars back on and drop in the follower. Swarms draw comb and you want them drawing it were its good for you. 


> try to find some beeswax to put on the top bars to help with guiding their combs.


they will do fine with out it if you have a comb guide for them to build on. if you have guides let it ride, the less you mess with them in the next week or 2 the better. 
if you don't have guides a emergy measure would be to staple gun on some bambo skewers, may or may not work but its worth a shot.

don't wory about the construction, bees are forgiving... I once speed built a Warre(ish) hive with the bees sitting next to me in a bucket because I was out of wood ware


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## Loadman1221 (Jul 22, 2016)

This is awesome!!


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## kapkarl (Oct 10, 2015)

What a way to learn! Keep it up, and you'll figure it all out.:thumbsup:


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beebomb
Quote from mls


> yes, the hive has a screen bottom. asuming you don't have pull out boad and the screen is open to the out side ASAP Cardboard and duct tape that SBB closed at least till they settle in and have some brood to anchor them.
> get 10-15 of those top bars back on and drop in the follower. Swarms draw comb and you want them drawing it were its good for you.
> 
> try to find some beeswax to put on the top bars to help with guiding their combs.
> ...


I think mls has called the problim correctly. You need to close the screen.
gww


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

You ever get to Chattanooga. I'll give u one of my smokers. Got a hive tool? If not, I got one for ya. Even have a bee suit for ya. Hole in the crotch so u can get stung on the junk and swell up good for those Goldkist workers!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Some Russian bees are mean so I've read. There are the gentle type bees that you can keep too.
For hive inspection or hiving them I have to wear my vented full suit. Consider requeening to the gentle type
bees once this hive settled down. You can also move it farther away from your house if there is room back there.


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## gtwarren1966 (Jul 7, 2015)

Get at least a veil and a cheap Tyvek suit. Getting stung all the time kinda sucks and could put you in the hospital if stung enough. It also can make you more comfortable around the bees.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Just remember - we learn from things that go wrong, not so much from those that go right. Good comments here. Russian bees have a lot of good qualities, such as the ability to build up and cut down quickly, and they Winter well in colder climates. They do have a tendency to swarm though. I would mention a couple of things:

When they are building comb, it's a good idea to feed then 1:1 syrup.
Mean bees are no fun. If they stay mean, you can always re-queen them with a milder mannered girl, and in 3 or 4 weeks you will have nice bees again.
Good luck, and stick with it. The bees will fix most of your mistakes.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

A lot of great advice here. Thank you everyone! 







This photo may appear as the same one I posted yesterday, however, I just snapped this about 30 mins ago. They appear to have about half of their colony just hanging out of the hive...
Not sure as of how to go about this. Getting a smoker today, so I could go and put the top bars back without getting zapped too much, however, a lot of you seem to think I should leave them alone for a while. At this point, I would rather them build a little comb right on the lid, settle down, and then scrape comb off the lid and put the top bars back on in few days too a week. What do you all think I should do?


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

I have a drawstring veil, luckily. I have been using light colored cargo pants and two pairs of white long-sleeved button ups with leather work gloves duck taped to the sleeves. The gloves have black cloth on the knuckles (I know, I know, dark colors are a no-no), hence the reason I got stung right on the knuckle yesterday. Going to put duck tape over that cloth, lol.


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## gtwarren1966 (Jul 7, 2015)

Get some nitrile gloves for better dexterity and less crushing of bees


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

I use nitrile gloves because my fingers swell like sausages if I get stung there. I've been stung through these, but not badly, and the stinger doesn't stick in the skin. Also, the bees aren't inclined to sting them, because they don't look like skin. I found with leather gloves, the bees will sting them, then once the pheromone starts spreading, they get attacked big time, and I have a whole cloud of nasty bees.


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

Beebomb123 said:


> A lot of great advice here. Thank you everyone!
> View attachment 32415
> 
> This photo may appear as the same one I posted yesterday, however, I just snapped this about 30 mins ago. They appear to have about half of their colony just hanging out of the hive...
> Not sure as of how to go about this. Getting a smoker today, so I could go and put the top bars back without getting zapped too much, however, a lot of you seem to think I should leave them alone for a while. At this point, I would rather them build a little comb right on the lid, settle down, and then scrape comb off the lid and put the top bars back on in few days too a week. What do you all think I should do?


I'm not familiar with top bar hives, but getting something in the hive for the bees to draw out comb where you want it would be my top priority. Swarms tend to draw comb like crazy. Dealing with wild comb is a whole nother matter and is not fun, plus it will take you to a new level of "mad bees". (at least in my experience)

Good luck!


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Not a top bar guy, but it struck me they are hanging out there because they have nothing to hang on inside. Maybe hang a few pieces of plastic foundation from the bars to get them started? And feed them – 1:1 syrup at least until they have several frames of brood going.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

> Let's Eat Grandmaw ........... Let's Eat, Grandmaw.......Grammar Saves Lives


Grandmaw always did make good stew.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I am thinking that is a bivouac cluster, and they are not seeing the hive as home, take action that is not normal behavior. Ie they are acting like a swarm cluster in a tree sending out scouts and looking for a home.

They want darkness, a small entrance, 40ish L of volume, etc, If there is too much light coming in or lots of open air the will often not except the hive as a new home. 
Get that hive closed up ASAP, grab the smoker if you can, if not a spray bottle with cold water and a bit of sugar. Get some rubber dish washing gloves get taped up, and go in work slow and smooth to get the job done.
you may have to treat it as a swarm capture buy the look of it...
my 1st thought looking at you picture would be to spray them good with cold sugar water (no smoke), get a large cardboard box and in one quick movement slide the cardboard flap up along the outer wall of the hive and then pull it back towards you along the roof of the hive, fold the flaps of the box closed, pull the roof, dump them in, quickly put the bars in and the roof back on and get out. 
but I am basing that on one long range pict that is giving me the impression most of the bees are not in the hive at all and I don't know what your hive is like....so I could be compleatly wrong

you may also be able to smoke them up off the side of the hive and then close them up 

good luck


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## Matt_inSC (May 12, 2015)

Man, this is exciting.
I bet I'm not the only one who would really like watching a video of this. opcorn:

Brings back memories of my (very poorly thought out) move of a hive pre-dawn last year in which the bottom board fell off about the time I got it to the car. Between a few stings through my pants, a very panicked drive to my dad's place with some bees loose in my car it still worked out to be a successful split and the colony is prospering. This beekeeping is far from boring.

Beebomb> good for you for getting in there and giving this beekeeping thing a whirl!:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## gtwarren1966 (Jul 7, 2015)

Matt_inSC said:


> Man, this is exciting.
> I bet I'm not the only one who would really like watching a video of this. opcorn:
> 
> Brings back memories of my (very poorly thought out) move of a hive pre-dawn last year in which the bottom board fell off about the time I got it to the car. Between a few stings through my pants, a very panicked drive to my dad's place with some bees loose in my car it still worked out to be a successful split and the colony is prospering. This beekeeping is far from boring.
> ...


I'll bet you got some straps for that now.


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## Matt_inSC (May 12, 2015)

gtwarren1966 said:


> I'll bet you got some straps for that now.


Most definitely. And most importantly - I know not to try to move a vertical split from the Snelgrove to a new bottom board (oh - that happens to be on another hive at the time) the pre-light morning of the hive relocation. Oh, the lessons I've learned.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

one more thing... as time allows, and assuming you're successful in keeping those bees, try building a more stable stand for that hive box. Stacked tires can be anything but stable once more weight goes on top. And a growing hive _will _get heavier. Much heavier.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

Hops Brewster said a mouthful. Tires suck. Had a huge flow and we had extra boxes on and didnt expect them to be filled in two weeks. Got to the yard and so many leaners it was ridiculous. My words of "that looks great" as we left the yard two weeks earlier came back to haunt me. After lifting pallets and putting tires under now we were lifting heavy pallets and taking them out. Blocks, wood, anything but tires.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Beebomb123 said:


> At this point, I would rather them build a little comb right on the lid, settle down, and then scrape comb off the lid and put the top bars back on in few days too a week.


No, you don't want to let them do that. They will make a mess, and when you start scraping to try and fix it you are just going top make them mad again, then you are going to make yourself mad trying to finagle that comb back in somehow, in such a way that they will want to stay.



> What do you all think I should do?


Fix it now. Don't wait, put the bars back in.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Ok, so I have a little emergency langstroth style deep brood hive ready to go, and they are still hanging off of the hive in a swarm pile. Here are one pics from 30 mins ago:



















The hive I have them in now is absolute crap, and I've given up on it. I'll scrap it and use it for more langstroths. How do I effectively retrieve this swarm without severely pissing them off and missing the queen?


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

Make sure to use smoke.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

If all the bees are out side in that cluster (which looks nice sized), I would put two drops of lemon grass oil on the bottom back of your lang hive, I would slide the top of your other hive to where a big portion of the bees are over the lang and then give it a good shake to where as many bees as you can get fall in the hive. I would then set the top aside and if the hive body is light enough to do the same thing, I would do it. If it is too heavy, I would slide it to the side of the tire over a five gallon bucket and try to bang them into the bucket and then dump them in the hive. Then put your frames in the hive with out killing to many bees and then stand back and watch what the bees do. Maby put the cover half on. If you see a bunch of bees raising thier buts in the air on the edge of the lang, most will probly fly in. If they fly out and regether on your hive, that is probly where the queen is. I probly would not use smoke while doing this but if you had a squirt bottle that you could put some sugar water in to spray on them before shaking them, It might help keep them from flying so much and busy cleaning each other and help keep them from nailing you.

There will be a lot of bees in the air. Maby after you squirt them with sugar water, give them a minute or two to clean on each other before shaking them. 

If can slide the lid and get a bunch in the hive but can't slide the old hive for the rest, It might be enough to intice them in on there own. You should be able to tell which way they are going by how many bees are on the edge of the box you are putting them in are raising thier tails in the air and seeing if the rest are getting smaller. Worst case is you will have to scrape them in something and move them. I do think a couple drops of lemon grass oil in the box you are putting them in will help. Too many drops will hurt.
Good luck
gww

Ps If you can just slide the top over the lang, there might be enough bees that drop in to intice the others on the side of the hive to fly in on thier own.

The sugar water is to slow thier flying a bit and to maby make them full and happy. I am so lazy that I would probly try it with out the sugar water but I didn't get stung a bunch by those bees already.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Get them in a hive before they leave. That's a good cluster of bees.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

If the guy you got them from has langstroth hives, see if he will give or sell you one frame of open brood. If so, put it in the langstroth hive that you built, put it all on top of that top bar hive and the bees will walk right into the langstroth.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Well, armed with my sugar water, a makeshift beesuit, and a whole lot of courage, I got most of them into a square sterilite container. About 3/4ths of them. Mostly from the center of that cluster. Then I ran over to the langstroth, pulled out a couple 
frames, and dumped most of that cluster into the bottom of the langstroth. Quite a few of them were on top of the frames, as I closed the lid. I'm pretty sure I crushed quite a few of them as I was closing the lid, but they were beginning to dive bomb me and hang on in an attempt to sting. I got one minor sting, nothing major. Soo, I really hope I got that queen into the new hive, and I really, really hope I didn't accidentally crush the queen. Oh God. So much anticipation right now. I'll be back over there at 8am to check and see what they are up too. To put in a nut shell as of to why I gave up on the top bar, it was simply full of gaps and too large. I can't blame them for not liking it. I didnt, that's for sure. This "langstroth-style" (and I say "style" because it is totally makeshift) is much more appropriate, perfect size, pitch black inside, and only two little holes I drilled to create entrances. The frames are foundationless, 17 inches long, 9 inches tall, and 1 and a half inches wide. 
So, to close, as of now, my number one fear is that I squished the queen. If I missed her, I would assume that her girls will leave the langstroth and ball up over her again on the TBH. I would assume that the queen is typically towards the very center of a cluster, is that assumption true?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Beebomb
Good luck.
gww


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Then I ran over to the langstroth


you want the new hive as close as you can to the old hive


> The frames are foundationless, 17 inches long, 9 inches tall, and 1 and a half inches wide.


going to give you problems. too wide... deal with it once they are settled and you have brood to anchor them, let them settle for now


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Beebomb
To msl's point, I built all my stuff using the plans here.
http://beesource.com/build-it-yourself/
Good luck
gww


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

@gww and @msl, Like I said, it's far from perfect, but it was the only decent thing I could whip up fast enough to get them in something quick. And I appreciate the plans, that will definitely help for once I have the cash to pick up some better lumber.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Btw, in the cluster I posted pics of, would it be typical for the queen to be towards the center of that cluster? And if so, would she be literally in the middle, like bee-on-bees? Or would she be at the bottom clinging to the surface the cluster is attached to?


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Oh, and I should have specified, the new hive is no more than 5 feet from the old one.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Beebomb
I have not much more experiance then you. I have watched a bunch of youtube vidios. I am thinking that she could be anywhere in the cluster and probly moves around. If it is any consulation, I think the queen is the easyest bee to dislodge when shaking. I also could be wrong but think you should have left the lid a little bit open because that is where the bees were closest to and it might take them a bit to find the entrance. I don't think it is worth worrying about now, tommorrow morning should tell the story. If the queen is not in the box, they will probly gether back where they were and you will get to do it again.

If you see some bees at the old place but most stay in the box, I bet you have her but you could always go and look at what is on the old hive just in case. I think some will still gether there and it might take a couple of days for them to get used to where the hive is. They might for a couple days fly to the top bar and then to the lang as a habit but it will probly work out.

You will know more in the morning. As far as the plans go. I made my first hives with every free board I could find laying around from other projects and raided some of dads barn wood. Mine are pretty junky also but you will be better off if you could build them to standard demensions for incase you buy some professional ones, they will work together and you don't have to continually do a cut out over and over every time you need to add room.

I hope this helps in some way.
gww


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## Zephyr (May 4, 2016)

Good lord you sound like my clone fellow student youth  What has the education system taught us? When we cant memorize it word for word, wing it. Bend the rules, probably break some, go with the flow and pray you got at least a passing grade. There's a lot of good stuff in here but in the heat of the moment just be ready to act. In your free time browse the forums or some good places like Bush Farms. I promise the practical exams the bees will dish out are a lot easier than some crap my professor try to pull in Chemistry! I'm only into my second year so here's my little bit to offer: mind your pests. You do have them. Apivar is real nice and easy to use. Hive beetles are obnoxious but a couple of beetle blasters or a Freeman Beetle Trap bottom board ought to do it.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

With that many bees I would not dare to deviate from the standard. This is an area that I will not even though I've experimented with
different hive style and frames before. Without a standard hive and frames they will build comb and propolized everywhere. Do you factor in the bee space first? You are lucky that they still stick around. Give them some standard equipment to make everybody's life easier.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I would get the rest of the bees into the hive this morning if they are still there. Take each piece of the top bar hive and walk it over to the lang with the lid open and shake/bang them off into the open lang. Then get rid of the top bar hive from the location. You can walk away leaving the lid open for the bees to figure it out for a while. 

With too wide frames, you can expect that the bees will build combs spaced a bit closer than 1 1/2", which means IF they start in the middle of one frame, as they go to the next frame, it could be 1/8" off center of the frame. The next one could be 1/4" off the center of the frame, etc. It will get messy. They may even just build comb perpendicular to the frames and really make a mess. If you don't have a key down the middle of the top bar, worse yet. That big of a swarm will build comb very fast and it would be hard to keep up with it if it doesn't go too well. If they stay, and make a mess of the comb in there, work to get a second box that's the right size and just put it on top and let them grow into it. You can always take control and get rid of the first box later if you are unable to get the comb right. Maybe they will build comb just right for you. 

Your 9" foundationless new comb will be extremely fragile to the point if you hold the frame anything but strait up and down, the comb can break off and fall to the ground. Once they tie it to the sides and bottom it will be better. 

You are in the middle of a crash course in beekeeping. Keep at it and learn along the way and you will have some valuable lessons learned.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Framed hives require precise dimensions, throwing something together leads to lots of problems. I say this as fact, not a judgment, your doing what you can with what you have.
to any other readers who might find them selfs in the same spot, I would suggest a Tanzanian style TB hive ( box with strait sides) that match the OG hive top bars as a quick fix.

another and possibility better option would be a Comfort style( Warreish) box hive, each section is just four 1x6x12 and some thin cut top bars or bamboo skewers. The rest for the bars is just 2 wooden strips attached to the inside. you could bang a few boxs together out of cupple of fence pickets









https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tN90jDml44
The main advantage here is the smaller (11"ish) top bar alows you to zip tie/wire it to the topbar of a lang frame or KTBH if you wish to convert later so you keep your options open

to the OP... you have them in a box, leave them, deal with the problems down the road once they (and you) have settled


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

@beepro, Perhaps you missed my earlier paragraphs. I appreciate your opinion, but if I could afford to use standard equipment, don't you think I would have? I spoke with a friend who kept hives for quite a few years, and he suggested I just get something crude but acceptable immediately, or they would leave. Basically, he said that if I take a drink cooler, and jerry-rig it to be "langstroth style", that it would work temporarily. My whole goal for right now is to keep them from leaving, and if they make a mess out of it, I will deal with it later. This is what the scene looks like this morning, pics from about 20 mins ago:



















I know, some of you are going to hate me for this. It's the best I could do yesterday. It has even sized frames, it's waterproof, only two small entrances (easy to defend), is pitch black on the inside, and is about perfect size. Soo, after doing a transfer like this, from one hive to another, does this appear to be a usual response? As you can see in these photos, they are on both at this point. One thing that I noticed, that gave me hope for this craziness, was that the bees were going in and out of the entrance of their "langstroth" with pretty good frequency. Is that a good sign? Btw, I don't intend to have them in this d*nm disgrace to hives everywhere for long. Just 2 or three weeks, max. Then I will get them into something better, one way or another.


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## pa-farmhand (Mar 14, 2017)

best way to learn is to do things . And you are doing things. Thats good keep it up . Looks like fun Lol. Enjoy your bees


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beebomb
Is it hot where you have the bees? If it is too hot you might have to rig up some shade. To me the cluster looks about the same and so there can not be many bees in side the cooler. Does it look that way to you? I believe I would put a popcycle stick or a couple of quarters and prop the lid of the cooler up enough to let some air in even if it let light in. Some of the old books say that a swarm won't stay if the hive you are putting them in is two hot. Once they are in it is a differrent story because they get organized and then cool the hive with fanning. You have to find a way to get them in and working first. Just so you know, I admit to not having a lot of experiance.

If it was me, I think I would give them another squirt of sugar water just to keep them busy with each other while I thought of what I was going to do next. Do you have any lemon grass oil? It is a couple of bucks but walmart might sell it in the pharmacey.

You do not have you bees locked down yet. The only way that your pictures would show any success is if as many bees where in the hive as are out of it. Then it would just be a case of the hive not being big enough. I do not think the swarm is that big. Something is stopping them from accepting what you are giving them. during day light, I don't see that much wrong with your long hive except a screened bottom and maby being devided making it small or hot.

I don't know how to tell to win this game and only can give things to try.
Good luck
gww


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

@gww, hmm. I was thinking that there were an alarming number of them outside the hive as well. Glad to hear that from someone else. I'm thinking about using a vacuum modified to bee vacuum to get every last single one of them again (as to increase my chances of not missing the queen) and then use a little bit of queen excluder mesh on the inside of the hive stapled over the entrance holes as to keep the queen locked in. I'll grab some lemon grass oil if I can find it too. Put a couple drops on the inside of the hive. And as of to dealing with potential heat problems, I can move them about 10 yards up my property and get them under a big shade tree facing the south. That should help with any heat problems. If any of you have anymore advice on how to go about this so I don't loose these guys, I would really appreciate it. I could use all the help I can get.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beebomb
I would not use a vacume on those bees unless I found the queen first and had caged her. Can you get near the bees and watch them with out getting dive bombed? I would spray them with sugar water, give them a couple of minutes to groom themselve and hope it made them a bit happier. I would do the lemon grass oil but remember only about two drops in the hive.

I would watch those clusters and look for the queen but mostly, I would probly keep dumping them in untill they left or stayed. I do think that maby a bit of shade or proping the top and shade. Do you have any kind of frame at all in the cooler? 

I might just lift the lid and put the two drops of lemon grass oil in the cooler and prop the lid with a 3/4 inch board in one corner and see if they started going in on thier own. For shade, I might just pull a car along side untill it is out of the sun of put a couple of hay bales or anything else I could to provide shade where they are with out moving things around.

I would think that the vacume takes too much chance of killing the queen. Look at a you tube vidio of someone finding the queen in a swarm.

Good luck
gww


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## Farmercal (May 19, 2015)

BeeBomb, the picture you posted looks like a laundry basket on top of a plastic container. IF that is a laundry basket and it has holes in the sides.....the bees are not going to like it. From the picture, it looks like I can see the ground through the make-shift hive. Perhaps it is just an optical illusion but if it has open holes, cover them up.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

@Farmercal, it's a beverage cooler. It seals air tight. Only way in and out are two quarter inch holes I drilled in to the front face of the cooler.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

New up date. Refer to images below:

























As you can see, they have all moved two the outside of the "cooler" hive. And if you look at at the last picture, you will see bees wax on the outside of the TBH. Is this a sign that their beginning to settle down?


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Also, I was examining the cluster up close, and look who I spotted: (look at the very center of the image)







Am I correct in believing that this is her majesty?
And if so, should I clip her and put her in the hive to encourage them to settle down?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Beebomb123 said:


> Only way in and out are two quarter inch holes I drilled in to the front face of the cooler.


1/4 is too small. a "bee space" is 3/8" the bees want something like an 1 1/4" hole when out shopping for a new home to have ventilation 

Unless you 1/4" was a typo this may be the answer as why they are not going in the box.. I would get a bigger hole on them asap!!! so you don't lose them or kill the bees you have inside the box. 
if I had to hazzard a guess they are culstered on the side with the holes, and you may have the queen on the inside


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Beebomb
I am not sure on the queen. You need to make your 1/4 inch holes in the cooler about 1 inch holes in my opinion.

If I had a match box or a tic tac container or a little bit of window screen and a little 1x1 inch board that I could wrap it around and then slide the board out and get the queen in it and than slide the board back in as the door. I would try and get the queen if I saw her and cage her. The swarm is leaving a little wax cause they are primed to make a home. While you were watching for the queen did you see any bees doing the jig. Look up a vidio on the waggle dance. If you seen that, it means they are just hanging out while the scouts check out home sites. You need them in your cooler and building comb and laying eggs. I don't believe they will stay as they are though odd frank has photos of bees building comb below his traps. 

The guy you bought this off of won't give you a frame of open brood you could put in the cooler would he, or loan you a hive untill you can come up with one?

In my opinion, you do not have them yet. You have access to them but they do not seem committed to where you are putting them. Did you try to prop the lid up about 3/4 inch and see what happened? You are playing but it does not seem you have found something that is successful yet.

Have your camera ready cause when the swarm up and leaves it is going to be a great picture oppertunity.

I am not trying to do more then help if I could but in the end, you are not there yet till you get them to move into something and start building comb, bringing in pollen and nector and not just hanging there sending out scouts to find a good place to live.

Keep us posted
gww

PS msl types faster then me.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Just checked the bit I used, and the holes are half inch, not 1/4


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

still drill bigger


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Will do


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beebomb
Did you squirt them with sugar water, get leomon grass oil or prop the lid up about 3/4 inch and see how they act. You are showing pictures but not telling of what action you took and how the bees act to that action. You can watch them but the only thing that will change is them flying away.

What are you doing besides looking at them. Are they leaving you alone when you get close to them? Go out and lift the lid where they can get in the cooler from the top. try for about 3/4 inch gap. Then watch them for ten minutes. If there is no change then try something else but at least see if they start moving in. You holes should be bigger.
Cheers
gww

Ps msl beat me again. You could drill three more half inch holes and probly do ok if that is the only bit you have.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Wasn't able to find lemon grass oil in my town yet, still searching. Also, I am lifting the lid as soon as I'm done. 
They keep running in and out of the holes, and the main cluster is directly over those holes. A little tricky to widen them. Will do is as soon as I think I can without pissing them off. And they have been quite docile. No aggression thus far.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

I wish I lived closer so I could loan you some equipment. I hope you get it worked out.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beebomb


> And they have been quite docile. No aggression thus far.


That is one step up from before.
Good luck
gww


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## Rww930 (Mar 14, 2016)

It might be the brand of tires


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

when you get settled you might think about taking a drive 
https://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/grd/6056217469.html
or hit me up on PM and I will talk you thew how to build the KTBHs I use


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Update:













So, there are A LOT of bees inside the hive. I've cracked the lid open about 3/4 of an inch and I'm going to check it every 10 mins or so like gww suggested. How long should I leave it cracked? Also, is this the queen bee? Or just a drone?


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Is that a cooler? It's gonna be hard for them to get any air flow in a cooler, unless you cut some holes in it. They're going to beard outside when they're hot.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

bee bomb
The Ideal of cracking the top is to see if the bees will file in to the cooler. Are they going in better now? Man that is a nice swarm and you need to be getting some hives cause even if they do go in, you will be lucky if they are not over crowded. In three weeks when the first of the brood hatches, they might be too crowded to fit if they are not already. I need to catch a swarm like that.

Does it seem like with the top open a bit that more bees are going in the hive then were?

I don't know if it is a queen in the picture.

Cheers
gww


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Ok, so I widened out the first two holes from half an inch to 1 inch, and drilled an extra 1 inch hole right next to the original first two. Three 1" holes total now. And when I cracked the lid, the others didn't seem to do anything other than walk in and out at a very slow pace. Left it open for 30 mins, they did nothing, and I closed it and drilled those holes. I have relocated the hive ten yards away, under a large shade tree, with the entrances facing straight south. They were relatively docile, but of course once I started brushing them out of the way and drilling, they became a little angry. Didn't get zapped, though. Once again, I took a closer look inside, without disturbing the frames, and they were linking themselves vertically in between the frames, and from what I could see, they were beginning to form wax (and hopefully combs!!) On the tops and sides of the frames. Oh man. I really hope they stay! Take a look at my most recent images:



















Oppinions?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Worst case is you might have some bees going back and maby should have moved three feet a day but I bet it works out ok and even if you lose some bees that is a big swarm. Too big for what you have them in. I am green with envy. I would say they are building comb. That box may be full of drawn comb in a week or two and so you need to do something about a hive. That cooler is going to cause you some heart ache but I am half convince you have them tethered if it doesn't get to hot. I don't know how to help except to leave them alone and work on a new home for them that is bigger. My inclination is to somehow keep the top cracked enough to provide some ventalation but I would wait for msl or others to comment before I would just listen to me. Now I guess just leave them be for a week, get a smoker for the next time you mess with them.

If you have the time, this is a pretty good vidio series to give just general management practices and bee handling advice. It may not cover everything but it is all in one place and can help quite bit.
http://www.uoguelph.ca/honeybee/videos.shtml
Good luck
gww


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

gww said:


> My inclination is to somehow keep the top cracked enough to provide some ventalation but I would wait for msl or others to comment


he did three 1" holes, a single 1.25" should have been enough in a wood box so I figger he is good on air... they make Styrofoam hives so I don't see the plastic being a big deal. insulation works both ways keeps heat out as well as in so all it should do is help them regulate. My best guess would be to shut the lid and let they have at for a week.
the question is were they outside do to the ventilation, or for some other reason that needs corrected, time will tell


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I am pleasantly surprised they are staying with you. It looks like they are settling in to me. The 'queen' photos are a drone, the big black bottom bee. Here's a queen photo for reference. They don't have to be dark like that and many are light brown. 








You will have comb tied up bad on those wide frames, but let them settle a week after the couple days they have had. Pestered too much can get them to abscond. Generally, successful beekeeping takes a little bit of cash to get started. If you know how to build things and can find some freebee wood, then you might get away with no cost keeping. I would be happy to see someone near you loan you even an old ratty lang deep and some frames to help you out. Just about anything could work for a top and bottom.

Such drama.


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

Bee bomb 

Reading this thread I just want to make an observation, and I hope you take it lightly. 

It appears you've spent a lot of time researching even outside this thread, building TBH, Cooler, searching for lemon grass oil, lots of tinkering, and so on. 

The bees don't seem much better off than when it started despite the time m, money , or efforts spent. Sometimes the alternative paths cost you more in the long run. Your time is worth money, perhaps you could spend it making some extra coin for your bees. 

Are you making new equipment, buying, staying with TBH or moving to Lang? Can you purpose any of your wood?


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

@nediver, zero offense taken from an observation made with the intent of helping me keep these guys. Constructive criticism is key to one improving their skills and learning new things. Now, to say that the bees aren't much better off, I would have to disagree with you to an extent. Instead of hanging off the failed top bar hive (I have zero carpentry experience and only a drill, circular saw, and hand tools) more than half of them, at least last time I checked, are inside their "hive" building comb. That's a lot better than just sitting in a big swarm cluster on the side of a piece of wood. And said tinkering is an attempt to replicate, to the best of my abilities, the advice that is given to me from the people here, with the hope of getting them to stay alive and in my possession until I can either build or buy a hive. So, yeah, if I *could* find plans for a langstroth that doesn't require a router, planer, or table saw (things I do not have nor know anyone personally who would let me use), then I could have it built within a day or two. I have been searching through the web for langstroth plans that would fall into those parameters, but have had no luck thus far. If any of you can think of a hive style that would be easier to build than a langstroth, for an inexperienced woodworker such as myself, that would be greatly appreciated. But if it comes down to having the money to buy one, well, that could take a week or two. If I could find someone in my county who would sell me an old beat up one for around 40 bucks, I could swing that. But any more, it's going to be a week. This whole thing was unexpected. I didnt think my top bar was all that bad, until I already had the bees, and discovered that they do not care for lots of different entrances. Of course, I was already aware of this, but as I was building the TBH, it didn't come together as I hoped it would.  
@gww , @DanielD, @msl, thanks for advice and comments as well! It all helps!


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Oh, and some news that could turn out to be very helpful (or not at all) to me. I left a message with a gentleman who runs a commercial apirary in my county on thursday, and he finally gave me a call back and left me a message. Apparently the guy sells honey to stores, like publix, kroger, etc, and it's a full blown multi-million dollar operation. He sells equipment, bees, and that kind of thing to hobbyist keepers as well. My hope is that since he has so much inventory, that he might have some old beat up hives he doesn't use anymore that he would let go for cheap to help out a broke newbie. A man can dream, can't he? xD


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Don't buy the bad worn down bee gears. You want something that will last a few seasons to get your money's worth.
Just make sure they are still in good used condition.


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## Matt_inSC (May 12, 2015)

Beebomb,
I'm in Greenville, SC which isn't too far from you as the crow flies but 2:45 by car. I'll give you a 10 frame Lang setup if you could figure out getting up here. I used the hive parts for about 1.5 yrs. and no known bee health issues. I simply converted from 8 to 10 frame stuff.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Beebomb, maybe you can gain twice by asking that commercial beek if you can earn some old hive equipment by working for him a while. Maybe he would even pay up front, if he has a sense you are an honest man. Helping him may gain knowledge. It doesn't take much to make a top and bottom, just plywood or anything to cover it. I first made tops with OSB and a 3/8" rim on the edges, leaving an opening of about half of one end. A bottom can be the same. I would suggest whatever the boxes, that you use good and correct frames, since drawn comb is like gold. If you stay with foundationless, learn how to keep the comb strait by reading up, as they can cross it over to an adjacent frame and tie two frames together.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Matt
You deserve coodles and raisen pie for you offer. I now add you to one of the people I look up to.
gww


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Beebomb123 said:


> So, yeah, if I *could* find plans for a langstroth that doesn't require a router, planer, or table saw (things I do not have nor know anyone personally who would let me use), then I could have it built within a day or two.


The D Coates nuc plans here ...
http://beesource.com/build-it-yourself/5-frame-nuc-d-coates-version/

... meet those requirements. The plans are for a 5 frame nuc, but it would be easy to scale it up to 10 frames. Clearly, one would no longer get 4 boxes out of a single sheet of plywood, so the cut list would be obsolete. I suggest using a straight board clamped to the plywood you wish to cut as a cutting guide for a portable electric rotary saw (often called a Skillsaw, but available from many brands such as Black & Decker, Bosch etc).

Since these hives would be made from plywood, they may not last as long as solid wood hives. Be sure to protect the plywood as well as you can. Paint is a minimum, but I would also (prior to painting) use Titebond glue as a 'cut edge' sealant on the plywood. Use a small brush or roller to 'paint' the glue onto any cut edge and let dry, then paint.

.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Beebomb123 said:


> . If any of you can think of a hive style that would be easier to build than a langstroth, for an inexperienced woodworker such as myself, that would be greatly appreciated.





Rader Sidetrack said:


> The D Coates nuc plans here ...http://beesource.com/build-it-yourself/5-frame-nuc-d-coates-version/ meet those requirements. The plans are for a 5 frame nuc, but it would be easy to scale it up to 10 frames. Clearly, one would no longer get 4 boxes out of a single sheet of plywood


There are plans for a 4 to a sheet 8F meadum Coates here https://beevac.com/downloads/
but once he builds the boxs, he still needs the frames, and that is beyond his skill/tool set at the moment, he is not even realy equipped to cut top bars for a KTBH

Beebomb I gave you my sujeston for a easy build hive in post #57
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Y-ARE-MAD!-New-guy-here&p=1538152#post1538152

Make the box out of 5.5-6” fence pickets or 1x6s , cut at 11 7/8” (so with the saw cerf you get one per foot of board), over lap the same end on every board as shown in the piture so it’s a square box Go over to the trim section and pick up some ¼” X3/4” trim(or any ¼” thick trim). Cut to fit the inside of the box nail/glue in place, this is the rest for your top bars. Use the trim to make your 8 top bars, put them on the rests 1 3/8” on center. 
drill a 1.25” hole in the bottom box, stack up 4 or boxs so on a board and put a board on for the roof, Boom done, functional hive in like an hour or 2. Sam comfort runs this modded Warre by the 100s. 

That being said, I would take matt up on his generous offer!


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

@Matt, That is hands down the most generous thing anyone has offered me. I sincerely appreciate it. Unfortunately, my car is very mechanicaly unsound, so driving that distance would be a big risk. I have asked a family member if I could borrow their car, but I received a "maybe", and all know what that means. IF I can find a way to you, thend I will gladly take you up on your offer!

Thank you everyone for your suggestions! After asking around, I have decided that the vertical Warreish TBH would be super easy and keep them from leaving. I will be heading over to the Home Depot today to grab the necessary materials. Thank you @msl for the idea. And @Matt, if I can find a ride in between the time I get the materials for the Warreish TBH, then I will head to you. Thank you everyone!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Tanzanian TBH would be super easy and keep them from leaving. I will be heading over to the Home Depot today to grab the necessary materials. Thank you @msl for the idea


a Tanzanian is a horizontal hive, rember that the top bars on the Tanzanian need to be 1.375" (or 1.25" depending on the bees and who you talk to) usually that takes a table saw to make the bars
That's why I was pushing the vertical Warre type box hive in my last post, as it can be made with simple had tools

edit, never mind the post has changed to clairfie


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

It is possible to make bars of whatever width you want with no more than a portable circular saw. Here is my post from some years ago ... 



Rader Sidetrack said:


> If you do want to make top bars to a specific width, it is possible to do so with a hand held circular saw with reasonable safety. It will, of course, be slower than with a table saw.
> 
> Lets say you want 16" bars 1 1/4" wide. Start with say two 8' lengths of 1x10 or 1/12. Clamp them (or screw them) to a flat surface with supporting blocks underneath the 1x10s, except no block under one end, leaving 18" unsupported. (The second board is just there to support the saw foot plate after several progressive cuts.) Then using either a rip guide attached to the saw, or a guide edge clamped to the top of the board, cut a piece 16" parallel to the long edge of the 1x10. Only cut to just past the 16" mark.
> 
> Do not crosscut the piece, leaving it attached at one end. Then cut a parallel bar, also to the 16" mark. When you have cut across the full width of the 1x10 into 16" strips, then do a crosscut to cut off those 16" strips. Now shift the supporting blocks and repeat. Not particularly fast, but workable, although you will end up with a stub of the 1x10 that cannot be safely cut with this method. With this system, buy the longest boards you can transport to get the fewest stub ends.


While I used a table saw to cut my own bars, my suggestion did work, as I received a nice followup from that earlier post ... 


> Thank you very much for your help with how to cut bars with a handheld circular saw. We now have a lot of bars and my fingers are intact.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

^ agreed, thats why I said "usually"
Given the OPs stated lack of carpentry experience and current stress level I chose not to make that suggestion.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Ok, I think I have some really good news. It appears, at least to my inexperienced eye, that the queen has accepted her new quarters, for the time being. Refer to the new images below:













Now take a look at how many were on the outside just yesterday afternoon:







What are your opinions?
Edit: they are also drinking syrup like mad, and some are flying over to where the cluster was originally, grabing balls of beeswax they left behind, and bringing the wax to the new hive.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beebomb
As long as they are in the hive and not gone, it looks good. You are going to regret not building something standard as soon as you can. That is a big swarm and the cooler is not going to hold them long and every bit of comb that they build is going to be more to deal with later. However having said that, it is exciting isn't it. It would scare me a little feeding the bees open like that. It might draw a lot of unwanted attention from other bees and actually put extra pressure on ahive just getting established. Surly you have a flow going that you could do with out feeding till you get them a hive that allows you to feed them in the hive.

I would listen to rader or msl on this but I personally had a bad experiance feeding close to a hive.
Good luck
gww


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

So, should I wait until there are some bees on the feeder, and then move it somewhere far from the hive without spooking them as to allow the rest of the bees to find their way to its new location?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beebomb
My opinion is that as big as the swarm is and as small as the space for them is, I would not feed at all untill I got them in a bigger hive and then I would only feed in the hive and only till they got about two extra combs full of stores of thier own or untill they got what thier brood nest is going to be drawn out. I don't know your intention on that or what is normal for your area. Where I am that would be about 20 deep frames or 30 medium frames which is what I run.
Good luck
gww

If I had a hundred hives, I might feed outside away from the bees. With just a few hives, I am not feeding unless I do it covered in the hive. I don't have enough hives to lose some to a robbing incident that I caused.


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

Beebomb,
You are doing a fantastic job. First rate effort considering you are on your own. Wish I was close enough to help in person.

First, a comment that is a little too late. Just because they absconded from your tbh does not mean there was something wrong with it. I've had the same swarm abscond three times in one day, then settle in and stay put. Sometimes it just takes patience. They like their first home to be the size of a Lang deep with a smallish opening, like 1.25" diameter. If there are gaps in the corners it doesn't matter. Stuff some paper in them to make it dark.

Your cooler hive is perfect. Don't change a thing. Just think of a way to put a Lang deep ,with frames ,on top of it as your second brood box. A piece of scrap plywood with a big hole in it will work. Use another piece of plywood for a lid. Maybe prop up the lid a little to make another entrance.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

bentonkb quote


> You are doing a fantastic job. Good job considering you are on your own.


Ditto
gww


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I have been busy all day making hive parts and haven't tuned in, but it's looking better there with the bees inside. You will probably be surprised how fast they fill that cooler with comb. I am looking forward to the updates. It's interesting that you see the bees gathering wax from the old location. They are chomping at the bit to build a home. Again, the comb may be all directions in that cooler, but it may be a good idea to just leave them go. With the frames you have, I think it would be hard to actually make them work out well. They could surprise you though I guess. 

Benton's thoughts about adding a deep on top for more room is a good plan. They won't grow in population for at least 3 weeks, so you have a little time. I wouldn't wait 3 weeks do do anything though. Work to that deep box. You may then need another after that.

Congrats on your catch.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

In the middle of building that warre hive, should be completed by noon tomorrow. Pics will follow.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

You should just split them. And then you woulnd need sucg a big hive. And splitting them means 1 colony can begin with a docile queen. Theres more than enough bees there. But im no expert. Im just successful.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

You built a Top Bar, then used a cooler as a Lang now you're building a Warre. I'd pick one and stick with it. Personally I'd pick the Langstroth, but you're wasting money (on an admittedly tight budget) buy changing designs at the drop of a hat.


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## volare71 (Jun 1, 2016)

Get back with your mentor and see if he/she can give you some drawn comb. A bar of uncapped brood would also be good.
Trying to get a bucket swarm to take to a new top bar hive with no drawn comb is tough. Just dealing with a top bar hive is problematic for a newbeek. It is so hard to check on them. You definitely need a good suit veil and smoker to deal with those girls.
Buenas Suerte, Amigo.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Brad Bee said:


> You built a Top Bar, then used a cooler as a Lang now you're building a Warre. I'd pick one and stick with it. Personally I'd pick the Langstroth, but you're wasting money (on an admittedly tight budget) buy changing designs at the drop of a hat.


Your right about that. Lang is definitely the way to go.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

@Brad Bee, @billboard, I'm not moving them into a different hive, as I am simply adding to what they already have. With the size of this swarm, they will need more room, and pronto. I'm taking the lid off of the cooler, and then make a new lid using some plywood. Then in the center of the plywood, I'm cutting a square hole just smaller than the width of the warre style boxes I'm currently building, and then just placing those boxes on that lid, directly over the hole, to give them more room for drawing comb. It is most certainly unconventional, and far from optimal, but it will probably be just adequate enough to give them what they need, for now. As I have stated from my first post, I do not have the money or tools to build or buy a langstroth, for at least a week or two. Refer to msl's post for my inspiration:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Y-ARE-MAD!-New-guy-here&p=1538152#post1538152
(Big thanks to msl, and everyone else who has contributed advice to me thus far)


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Beebomb123 said:


> @Brad Bee, I'm not moving them into a different hive, as I am simply adding to what they already have. With the size of this swarm, they will need more room, and pronto. I'm taking the lid off of the cooler, and then make a new lid using some plywood. Then in the center of the plywood, I'm cutting a square hole just smaller than the width of the warre style boxes I'm currently building, and then just placing those boxes on that lid, directly over the hole, to give them more room for drawing comb. It is most certainly unconventional, and far from optimal, but it will probably be just adequate enough to give them what they need, for now. Refer to msl's post:
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Y-ARE-MAD!-New-guy-here&p=1538152#post1538152


If they are that big and you have to go thru all that trouble. Splitting the hive would be much easier.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Do I need a new queen to split the hive?


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Not necessarily. You can wait till the queen starts laying eggs and then put half the bees with a frame of eggs and the other half gets the queen. Or you can buy a mated queen and just split the hive up.


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

Billboard, 
Beebomb is in a bit over his depth at this point. Your idea of splitting on the first brood is a good one, but it is too much to ask of him. When he has his bees making brood in a box that is the right size, then he can worry about making increase.


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

Beebomb123 said:


> It is most certainly unconventional, and far from optimal, but it will probably be just adequate enough to give them what they need, for now.


and a wonderful read on this cold wet afternoon! opcorn:
Beebomb, you are doing fantastically! 
Keep it up, you will figure this out!


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

bentonkb said:


> Billboard,
> Beebomb is in a bit over his depth at this point. Your idea of splitting on the first brood is a good one, but it is too much to ask of him. When he has his bees making brood in a box that is the right size, then he can worry about making increase.


He maybe over his head. From what ive been reading hes dealing with a big mess of mean bees. No tools. Ho real hive. Hes running around nervous and not knowing what to do. Splitting the bees would 1. Break up a big pile if mean bees. The smaller they are the nicer they are to work and learn about bees. Who wants to learn about bees being attacked. When they are smaller and nice he could actually take his time working them and see what its all about. It would be to his advantage to split as soon as he could. Then having 2 hives he could always take from 1 and give to the other if needed. It would be beneficial to split. Its not hard, its easier than building 3 different hives. For $35 he could have different genetics too.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, it is a bit overwhelming and confusing right now. There is nothing wrong with making different hive boxes to accommodate his bees. You do 
whatever you have to when hiving them. There are also langs hive plan here you can follow to make some too. On CL if you can find the cabinets or panels for free then you can make more hive boxes. The composite particle advantech board on CL can make some hive boxes too. I turn them into langs boxes for my growing apiary here. 
Yes, splitting the hive will help to calm them down. Without enough foragers even the guard bees have to convert. That has to wait because without new boxes and frames there is no place for the queen to lay now. Maybe later on after they have settled down then you can make the split if the population still hold and they continue to be mean.
A mean hive will be meaner once they grow even more. So consider splitting to make the new queens. Maybe there are better and gentler bees there after the virgin got mated. Also consider using your hive boxes to catch more local swarms. Then sell them on CL to buy the needed standard bee equipment for your current hive. Half price for the bees at $25 a swarm will buy you some bee frames as well. There are many ways to do this if you think creatively.


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

Beebomb123 said:


> In the middle of building that warre hive, should be completed by noon tomorrow. Pics will follow.


I had posted a few pages back that I had some used items that you could have (suit / smoker). I have a langstroth hive that my mentor gave me last year when I started out. Probably can round up a super (medium or shallow) or two. Inner cover & outer cover. Have a hive top feeder too. 


I'm about 1.5 hours from you. I could get your way tomorrow during the day. Maybe meet in Calhoun (halfwayish) right off I75.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Spur
You also have just made yourself one of my heros. I built a homemade sawmill. I was on a sawmill forum and was having problims making a blade guide system cause I am not a good fabracator. A guy on that forum made me a guide system for my mill and shipped it to me and then would not give his address so I could at least pay for shipping and give him a little money. If I would have bought the stuff it would have been for the $300 through $500 range. I pushed him for his adress and his answer to me was to find somebody really in need and buy them some grocerys.

My mill was so much better then what I was doing on my own because of that guy. We still talk some through messaging.

Beebomb, This would probly get you moving a bit faster in what you are trying to do and also give you equiptment to help in judging what you want to build in the future. Spur, you and matt impress me and I will always try and reamember this when I get in one of my questioning modes.

There are still people in this world who help others and I always feel privlidged to have seen a few of them. It should make me feel bad that I am not a better person myself.

Anyway, sorry for the rant of sorts taking up so much space.
Thanks
gww


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

Spur,
Are your donor wares 8 frame or 10? Either way I have a brand new 8 frame medium (got it by mistake) I will throw in or a 10 frame shallow and some frames for either way.

I live in Dayton but work in Chatt so if you make contact with him and head that way I can get this stuff to you tomorrow before you go. I almost want to go and help him get this stuff squared away. :waiting:


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

They are 10 frame.


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

Spur,
Well I have an almost new 10 frame shallow super to throw in. Just let me know and I will bring it with me to work tomorrow.

Just sent you a PM.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

@Spur9, @BroncoVol74, I can't say thank you enough. You are both incredibly kind. I sent a PM to you, spur. And, don't think for a moment I forgot your offer, @Matt_inSC, and if I had a ride there, I would most certainly take you up on it. Same goes for @msl. If you were closer, I would love for you to teach me more about building hives. So many generous, caring people here. Gives me hope for our world. Thank you all so much!


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

Beebomb,

Sent u a PM. Looks to be about a 45 minute driver for each of us. I can leave the office anytime after 10am tomorrow. Will meet up with BroncoVol74 sometime after 10am and get the super/frames. 

Let me know what time you can meet. It can be afternoon if that works out better for ya.


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

So we all need to see photos of the bees going into their new digs! 
opcorn:


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

Beebomb - post or pm me the time that u want to meet. Can't leave the office until after 10am. Give me an hour to meet up with Bronco and get his shallow/frames. Probably a good hour from downtown to Calhoun exit 312.

Need to be back in Chattanooga before 5.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

lots of good Karma happening here:gh:


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

razoo said:


> So we all need to see photos of the bees going into their new digs!
> opcorn:


Yes we do. Thanks for your generosity Spur and Bronco. Beebomb, enjoy these gifts and keep us updated.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Absolutely! Pictures, video, and a thorough description will be posted for all to view! Thank you once again for all the help I have received. I love bees, (and all bugs) but the kindness of the apiarian community is something to have great admiration for in of itself.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Beebomb123 said:


> but the kindness of the apiarian community is something to have great admiration for in of itself.


Just give it a little more time. :lpf:


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Lol, I'm sure there are are a few jerks, but isn't that in every aspect of life? Good experiences so far!:thumbsup:


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Question for all you good people, is this a varroa mite? Noticed a couple of these guys running around (quite fast for their size) near the open feeder, and one running around on the top of the hive lid. They seem a brighter red than varroa, and, as you will see in the video I will link, they are wicked fast for their size. So I'm unsure. Here is a picture of the little sucker:







Edit: the quality of the pic is not coming through right, refer to video link below:
https://youtu.be/yX5yzborVMk


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

Beebomb123 said:


> Question for all you good people, is this a varroa mite? Noticed a couple of these guys running around (quite fast for their size) near the open feeder, and one running around on the top of the hive lid. They seem a brighter red than varroa, and, as you will see in the video I will link, they are wicked fast for their size. So I'm unsure. Here is a picture of the little sucker:
> View attachment 32566
> 
> Edit: the quality of the pic is not coming through right, refer to video link below:
> https://youtu.be/yX5yzborVMk


I don't think so. Possibly anystidae
http://xespok.net/arthropoda/main.p...own_Genus_Anystidae/Anystidae_PG9981.JPG.html
also known as whirligig mites
https://www.marylandbiodiversity.com/viewSpecies.php?species=16303


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

@razoo I would agree. Thanks for the hasty reply. I was getting a little worried.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Beebomb123 said:


> To start, I have never kept bees before. I'm a 19yo student, so I have been doing this as cheaply as possible. Attended my local bee club last thursday, met a guy who hooked me up with bees last night. Gave me a 5 gallon bucket full of 4pounds of Russian swarm with their queen. Dumped them in their top bar last night, gave them feed, and left them alone. Woke up to them trying to swarm again today, and I attempted to locate the queen and isolate her in a jerry rigged queen-clip to attempt to calm her down. Couldn't find her, swarm got mad, and I got stung. Now, hours later, they are literally dive bombing my face 80 yards away from their hive in my drive way. I can't even stay outside longer than 5 mins or they chase me. I'm pretty freaked out, not going to lie. I live in northern georgia, so I'm pretty sure they wouldnt be africanized. Especially since they were given to me from a local beekeeper, of which his hives produced this swarm. They are still going nuts around the the hive. He said he thinks they are russian, if that helps at all. Please folks, I'm a complete noob at this, very enthusiastic and hopeful, but this has got me stumped. Any help is very much appreciated.


The Russians are causing all kinds of trouble now.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Lol, I'm not entirely sure that they are russians now. They are pretty light in color. What do you think?


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

Probably a Russian, European, Italian, Buckfast, anklebiter, Carni mixed breed mutt.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Is that a bad thing? They have been relatively docile since they have settled down. I was able to stand a foot away from the hive and they didn't seem to mind. It seems the only time they get pissy is when a mess with their home, and then it's off to the races, lol. I think that first day they were chasing me and popping me was due to the stress of being captured, moved around, etc. To be honest, I don't really mind bees having a little bit of an attitude when I am actually messing with them. If I'm suited up, then I would assume that rarely ever would I get stung more than a couple of times per hive inspection. And as long as they dont bug me when Im not bugging them, I don't see it as a big deal. It makes me think (and perhaps incorrectly) that because of their higher rate of protective and aggressive nature, they might be more resistant to robbing and wild animal attacks. Maybe I'm looking for a silver lining with moody bees that simply isn't there...


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## gtwarren1966 (Jul 7, 2015)

Beebomb123 said:


> Update:
> View attachment 32465
> View attachment 32466
> 
> ...


The bee in the center looks like a drone to me.


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## Jim Hancock (Dec 30, 2016)

This whole thing will turn out like your kid winning a goldfish at a carnival - next thing you know the free fish needs $400 worth of aquarium equipment. Enjoy the "free" bees. Looks like your learning fast and getting it under control.


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

Jim Hancock said:


> This whole thing will turn out like your kid winning a goldfish at a carnival - next thing you know the free fish needs $400 worth of aquarium equipment. Enjoy the "free" bees. Looks like your learning fast and getting it under control.


:lpf: So true.


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## Headnut (Feb 22, 2014)

Beebomb123
Any change in your bees?


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

Beebomb123 said:


> Is that a bad thing? They have been relatively docile since they have settled down. a big deal. It makes me think (and perhaps incorrectly) that because of their higher rate of protective and aggressive nature, they might be more resistant to robbing and wild animal attacks. Maybe I'm looking for a silver lining with moody bees that simply isn't there...


No, having mutt bees is the same as having a mutt dog. There is no real problem with them other than they don't breed predictably in the sense that your queens daughters could have just about any combination of characteristics.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Ok, so I would like to start off by saying that there are no words for the amount of gratefulness I have for what @Spur9 and @BroncoVol74 did for me. They absolutely went out of their way to hook me up with everything I needed. Im honestly speechless. Take a look at all of this!







I got the bees transferred into their new hive yesterday evening. Thanks to the suit I was given, I didn't get stung one time! Everything went very smoothly. Only a couple of problems I encountered; the frames I made for the cooler were not long enough to hang correctly in the deep, so I had to just knock the bees into the deep without the original frames. Didn't want to do that, but I don't think it matters much, since they only had about half of one frame filled with comb, and the 2 supers on top of the deep are filled with frames that have comb. The second problem I encountered is pretty serious. It has me worried. I did an examination of the comb that they had made in the cooler hive, and I noticed something that was not quite right. There are MULTIPLE EGGS in each comb. I looked into it, and from what I was able to gather, that means laying workers due to a queenless colony, since queens apparently hardly ever lay more than one egg per comb cell. The eggs were all over the place, some center of the cell, others were near the walls, others were laying upright against the sides of the cell. Everything I read stated to either buy a queen and requeen ASAP, or get a frame of brood immediately and pop it in there to let them convert one of the larvae into a new queen. Suggestions? 

BTW, I am uploading a video of the new hive with the bees flying a round all pissy right now, and will link it as soon as it's uploaded!


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## Jim Hancock (Dec 30, 2016)

Sounds like you lost the queen. You may have hurt her with all the moving between hives. Contact your friend at the bee club and see if he'll give you a frame of brood.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

I said split along time ago. Now you have to get a queen. Your running into more problems doing other things. If you woulda split it. You could have your own frame of eggs to donate. Or whatever. Good luck.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Spur and bronco
You guys are great.

Bee bomb
I have never seen an egg. My eyes have not adjusted to that detail yet. I am too new to know for sure what I am talking about. I do think new queens lay multiple eggs and this may also hold true to a queen that has just started laying again and has no real place to lay. Also I have read that the worker bees have to short a rear end to reach laying in the bottom of the cell which you seem to think you saw. I don't know what to tell you. A frame of brood makes it much safer of not taking a chance.

I do wonder about the amout of comb they have drawn for such a big swarm, It seems it should be more. I would take your new hive equiptment and set up some feed with a quart jar over the inner cover hole and keep some two to one sugar water on them.

I just find it hard to believe that laying workers could have developed in such a short time but I am very new.

I hope you get several more comments on this thread because I am not against learning with you.

Good luck
gww


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

Billboard,
I could have bought Microsoft stock in the 1986 and been a millionaire today but I didn't. You could have flown down to Georgia and helped this kid out but you didn't. "I told you so's" are no help to new people and do no service to this post. We are all sure you never made any mistakes in your life but the rest of us do. 

Beebomb,
You need to be certain you don't have a queen. Be smooth and deliberate in your search and then see if you can get someone from your club to donate a frame of brood with eggs and young larvae.

I also agree with GWW. I am not so sure you are queenless. You need to try to find her but you need to be extremely careful in doing so. Don't bang the frames around, be slow and smooth.


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

Beebomb123 said:


> Ok, so I would like to start off by saying that there are no words for the amount of gratefulness I have for what @Spur9 and @BroncoVol74 did for me. They absolutely went out of their way to hook me up with everything I needed. Im honestly speechless. Take a look at all of this!
> View attachment 32598


:gh:


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Good news. I just spoke with one of my mentors on the phone, and he said that he would stop by my house and have a look at the hive tomorrow morning. He is a master beekeeper, so I assume he is pretty well informed in everything bees. According to him, if it's a new queen, she may still be learning the ins and outs of egg laying. However, he did say that if the hive is truly queenless, then it's a hard problem to solve  
I really hope all goes well tomorrow! And once again, thank you @Spur9 and @BroncoVol74 for what you did for me. And thanks to all those who contributed helpful advice!


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

You're very welcome.



gww said:


> I just find it hard to believe that laying workers could have developed in such a short time but I am very new.
> gww


Like gww said -

If you have only had the bees for a week (date of 1st post), you should not have laying workers if a queen came with them. Even if she died on day 1. 

I don't think that you ever actually saw the queen from your postings. 

And it may be possible that the queen is there, but the workers key off the brood scent to suppress their egg laying. So your bees may have been without brood for a while. Who knows what their conditions were like before you got them.

More experienced people should chime in with suggestions, I am saying this based on what posts I have read and assumptions below:

1) Laying workers are tough to overcome
2) You might fix it with either frames of brood comb or a queen
3) The items in #2 may not be available to you
4) You now have equipment that is bee-ready
5) You have the bees in the single deep with 2 shallow supers of drawn comb
6) You have the hive top feeder on top with some sugar water (no need for the inner cover while using the HTF)
7) The deep box just has plastic foundation in it - no comb drawn

The bees should settle down and take the feed. Fingers crossed that they start pulling wax in the deep. The guru's may suggest that you remove the supers until the deep is drawn. 

But you are going to have to look for the queen and get an answer on your hive.

I would let others offer suggestions and determine a plan of action. If they are laying workers, waiting until tomorrow to act may not make much of a difference.

Go set outside and watch/enjoy your bees. Worst case is that you have to hit the guy up for another 5 gallon bucket. But you may get some drawn deep comb out of this. And if you get another bucket of bees, take that swarm trap to pick them up in. And verify a queen is present.

***** If your hive is dying out, at some point you will have to cut bait and get those drawn frames in a place away from wax moths/hive beetles so you don't lose it *****


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Beebomb
I know it is done and I am not being critical at all but just saying something that might come in handy in the future. I might even be wrong. I wish you would have found a way to tie a small piece of that comb with the eggs you saw into the new hive set up. I do not think it is a big deal but I am thinking that if you had took almost two days to hive them before they started building comb and maby a small delay for a little comb to be built before the queen could lay, the eggs you seen may not have had time to have hatched and if you some how had killed the queen during your last transfer, the bees may have had a chance to make another one. Not a very big deal cause if it is a queen laying those eggs, she will lay more and if it really is laying workers (which I doubt but don't know) they couldn't have made a queen anyway. It is these nice little things that are helped out at the point you have two hives to move stuff around from.

I wish you the best with your master beekeeper and he will be closer and probly much smarter then me and no matter what he finds, it is nice of him to take the time and try.

The first part of this post is just how my mind works and may not have been worth the effort but I figure mention it and than let people think about it for themselves. I don't really give it as advice but more of what I am thinking.
Good luck.
gww


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Here are some photos of those comb cells closeup:
https://ibb.co/mdNAFk
https://ibb.co/e4081Q
I don't think you can zoom in on the images using a mobile device, so if that's what your using, just take a screenshot and zoom in on the image that way.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

If it's laying workers, you don't need to rush a fix. Just back away for a few days to let the dust settle. In 8-9 days the brood will be capped to see what really is going on there. Drones, not good. Worker brood, have a happy dance. The master beek friend will be good for your situation. 

If you have laying workers, I would guess they came to you in that situation. A few days wouldn't cause that, I wouldn't think. Maybe you have a queen chomping at the bit.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I see some eggs nicely placed in the center, as by a queen.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

I sure hope so, @DanielD! Maybe the queen was just, as you said, chomping at the bit.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Ok, so a couple of things. I was examining the comb I have with me, (it fell off the home made frames yesterday during the transfer) and although I noticed that while there were lots of cells with 2-4 eggs each, there were also a few cells mostly near the edges of the comb, where the eggs were laid in a perfectly classical fashion one per cell, positioned straight up vertically, smack-dab in the middle of the cell. I'm in question as of to whether a laying worker could even lay eggs that accurately at all. Maybe they can. I hope I get good news tomorrow. 
Secondly, here is the link to that video of the hive and bees right after the transfer, in addition to a video of a bee that immediately came over from across my property to investigate her future furnishings as soon as I unloaded them! Pretty amazing sniffers they have. Here are the links:
https://youtu.be/iwvS8suT1Ms
https://youtu.be/CslvbXFhWAc
Enjoy!


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Have you got the hive top feeder on them?
Good luck
gww


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Yes @gww, the hive top feeder has been on since I transferred them.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Beebomb, I would suggest leaving them alone for a week at least. They have gone through a lot of disruption and need to get settled in. I would be concerned about them deciding to bug out. I would even suggest a very short look by the master beek, or even show him the photos first and let him know all the fuss they've had.


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

For the more experienced beekeepers:

Bomber's 2 shallow supers have drawn comb. But all frames in the deep are foundation only. I suggested that he put the drawn comb on to give the queen a place to start laying asap. Hopefully the bees will draw out some of the deep frames by the time she runs out of room.

Would you concur?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beebomb
I do agree whole heartedly with danials suggestion. You are going to find that bee keeping is not great for instant gratification unless you can get it like I do by just sitting and watching the entrance. I have a couple that have queen cells in them and could mess it up buy getting in at a time durring the virgin needing to get mated and that ends up being a couple weeks of not knowing and it is hard to not know but there is a time for everything.
You could spend you time putting up a swarm trap and then maby you will be the one with a five gallon bucket of bees insted of haveing to go to someone else and your bees could have a well needed break to orginize thier new home.
Good luck
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Spur
I am brand new and I know you are asking for someone with experiance which is not me. I do agree though because from the looks of it that was a big swarm plus they had not drawn a lot of comb up to this point (maby from being messed with) for thier size. I think also the extra comb will give them a chance to pack away some of that sugar water into the hive and maby later the pressure will be off of trying to keep up with the feeding when they have a little packed. I am always scared of feeding too much when they have zero comb cause of them maby filling it faster then the queen can lay. It would be nice if they use thier instinct when swarming to make some comb and so filling a little of that drawn comb with sugar serup may in the end help with both eggs and comb regardless of flow.

If my post sound off balance from fact, I am new but that is my thinking now.
Cheers
gww

The point of what I am trying to say is that this swarm has sorta been held back about an extra week from what would be normal and the extra help of the drawn comb may put them back on track and a couple eggs may make them want to stay.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

@Spur9 and @gww, I wanted to put those frames that already had a little comb built in them from their cooler hive, but it was foundationless, and the deep frames have foundation, so rubber banding them into the deep frames would have kept one side from being accessed by the bees since it would be pressed against the foundation. That made me think that the nectar and pollen inside the cells on the side pressed against the foundation would ferment, and create some kind of fungus or something. So I choose not to put the it in there. Wouldn't the queen start laying in the suppers since they already have drawn comb ready to go?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beebomb
Yes to your question. I don't dissagree with what you did under the circumstances. Spur just ask about his advice to you and not about the old comb (that was me earlier). I know he was asking others with more experiance then me but me being excitable and pushy, I thought I would give my thoughts anyway. It was not critical of any action you took but more of a what is the right thing to do with the equiptment you now have. I was just thinking what you did was right. I do think the bees need a good week break like danial said though. Give them a chance to get a little open brood in the hive in your new comb and that should tether them for good. Let them do thier thing for a week and then look at the good things that are happening inside your hive.
Cheers
gww


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## KBroman (Apr 3, 2017)

BeeBomb,
From the looks of the comb pictures, you do not have a laying worker. That looks like a new queen getting used to laying. With the small amount of comb you have available, she is chomping at the bit to lay and is more than likely laying multiples. It takes three weeks to develop a laying worker. So, even if you killed the queen on day 1, you still would not have a laying worker. Also, a laying worker, or, more accurately, laying workerS, will lay a _bunch_ of eggs in each cell. I'm talking 6-9 or more, and they will be all over the sides of the cell as their butts can't reach the bottom of the cells. I have observed many new queens laying 1-4 eggs in a cell. No need to worry about it. The worker girls will eat the eggs that they don't want in the cell.


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

Getting the swarm onto drawn comb was a huge step in the right direction even if you had to sacrifice some partial combs to do it. Your queen, assuming she is in there, can lay much faster than the new comb can be built, so she will make up for the lost comb in a day or two. 

My advise, let things settle down for a week then look for brood. Feeding sugar is probably optional at this time of year. Look for pollen coming into the hive.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Yes, the drawn comb is good, and the foundation will get pulled very fast with that big swarm. If there is a good flow, I would just feed till they have a couple frames of stores extra and let them go. In three weeks they will start having brood emerge. With dying off old workers they may hold steady for a couple weeks, then grow in population. Keep us updated through the next several months how things are going. As gww said, enjoy them coming and going for a while and keep them closed.


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

Bomber - if ur getting what Chattanooga is getting (heavy rain), those bees r gonna be inside today. That may be a good thing in that they can polish up those drawn frames and get that queen laying. Also pull some comb on the deeps.

I believe that hive top feeder holds around 2 gallons. In a few days, you can check and see how hungry they were. The swarm that I caught on 4/20 had taken all 2 gallons that I put in their feeder after hiving them as of last evening. They have finished drawing out their 10 deep frames and are starting on a medium super. Hopefully that will happen fast for you too.

I would start cleaning up those medium frames that I gave you. You can search on here or google pics of how to set them up with a starter strip or wire to run them foundationless. Or you could install wired foundation back in them. You may need that super this year.

When you take off the hive top feeder, don't forget to put the inner cover on in its place. And mark which side goes up while you have it off. The girls will "remind" you with burr comb if you put the wrong side down.

Watched the video - you might want to consider moving the hive further away from the wall so you can work it from behind. I know that you can access from the side now, so no biggie. And I don't know how you roof/gutters are arranged, but you could have rainwater dump on top of the hive from a gully washer with the hive that close. Not a high priority item - something to do in a few months.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Ok, time for an update. So, I had my mentor come out to see my hive yesterday, and gave him the whole story on what the bees had been through. Long story short, he didn't find a queen, but he believes I have one. The weather was pretty nasty, and my hive is in the shade, so visibility wasn't so good. The reason he believes I have a queen, is due to most of the comb cells in the supers only having one egg. One thing that threw him off though was how "sloppy" they were laid. He then gave me a ride out to his apirary, and opened up some hives. I learned a lot, got to view a queen in person for the first time (pretty cool), and had some enjoyable off-topic conversation. He decided to give me a frame of brood to help with getting them to begin drawing in the deep brood box, as well as give the hive a chance to raise a new queen if I don't have one. Very kind man. And I'm very grateful. So, in closing, I most likely have a queen. I was given a frame of brood to further encourage them to begin drawing in the deep frames, as well as give the colony a chance of developing an emergency queen if by some slim chance I do not have a queen. He also offered help in saving my hive using other methods if for some reason his queenright conclusion was incorrect, and the emergency queen solution failed. He told me to leave them alone for a week, then go through and attempt to locate that queen. I will be posting an update following that hive inspection. See you next Thursday!
The brood frame he gifted me:


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

It was very nice of your mentor to spend that much time with you and generous of him on the frame of brood. You have been getting more support from some very nice people than most can expect. You must have some kind of karma that draws well wishers. It really sounds good and like you are on your way. It is always nice to go through hives with some one who knows more then you. I have did it a couple of times also and really feel it has helped me with my own bee handling. I do my very best to do it all on my own cause I don't want to wear out my mentors good will towards me but also never turn down a chance to go through his hives with him if he invites me. 

It is hard when you don't know what you are seeing because you have no view of what is normal having never seen normal before. Looking at others stuff helps in the beginning.
Good luck
gww


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## popeye (Apr 21, 2013)

This has been an excellent thread. Kudos for jumping into this.The rewards is worth all the anxiety and stings. So nice of those guys to give you advice, hardware and that frame of brood.


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

Beebomb, How are your bees doing?


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Hey everyone! I've been really busy lately, and I haven't had any solid good news regarding the hive. A week ago, I had my mentor come out and look over the hive to see if he could locate a queen. You can read more about that in my last post. I opened up the hive 5 days later, and I could not find a queen. I did see lots of bees, roughly the same amount that had been in the swarm. All seemed to be quite healthy. They were also relatively docile. I also noticed eggs in the comb cells, but as many as 4 in some of the cells, laid quite sloppily. Some cells had a single egg laid directly in the middle, though that was the minority. No new capped brood, but there seemed to be some that were partially capped. As if the workers were in the middle of forming a cap when I went in the hive to inspect. I'm going back in tomorrow, and I will know more then. My mentor is on vacation until sunday, and once he is back in town, he said that he will be able to help me work this out. So, as of now, it could be laying workers, or a weird queen, lol. Im positive regarding the outlook, though. I have quite a few people around my area who are more than willing to help me with this, so I am sure it will get worked out. Now, onto some other news. @Spur9 had gifted me a swarm trap along with all the things him and @BroncoVol74 gave me, and I had an occurrence yesterday that inspired me to set it out on my deck with a few frames of drawn comb. I go back and forth between two properties during my week, and at the property where I do not keep the bees, I have seen no more than 2 or 3 feral EHB's in the whole 3 years I have lived here. I keep my gear and extra hive boxes and frames in my garage. Yesterday when I was opening up the garage to leave, as soon as I opened the door, I noticed a honey bee fly right into the garage, over to me, then over to the equipment, where she hovered around until I went to back my car out. At first, I figured scavengers. I know they have pretty good noses, but to smell it through the walls and door right into the inside of my garage? Wow. Didn't know they were bloodhounds with wings. The more I learn about these guys, the more amazing they are. My neighborhood is a nature reserve, so I figured there would be at least a few feral hives around here. It is against the HOA to keep any type of outside animal, including bees (I called and asked), so they must be feral or someone's sneaking. Anyways, I would like to have at least 2 hives for this year, the more the better, so I figured I would set out that swarm trap on my deck. My house is on a mountain side, so the deck is tree canopy height. Easily 35-40ft up. I set it out at 6am, and then headed out for the day. I got back at around 7ish, and lo-and-behold, they're must've been 6 to 8 girls just chomping at the bit. They were flying back and forth, looking at all sides of the box, flying up to the entrance, and trying to get in. I say trying because the box has a plastic slide cover for the entrance, which I forgot to prop open with a tack when I set it out. At some point while they were investigating the trap while I was out, the cover must've slid shut, and kept anymore from getting in for a good 6 hours. As soon as I saw the trap, I noticed 3 or 4 of the bees trying to get into the entrance. There are small ventilation holes drilled into the plastic cover, and they appeared to be trying their best to squeeze in. I opened it up, proped it open with tacks, and immediately 2 or 3 flew out. They all got spooked for a minute, hovered around above me and the trap. Once I backed off, they went right back to it, and right until sundown, 3 or 4 were constantly buzzing around. Slowly zigzagging back and forth, as if they were inspecting the box. Scouting even?  They would fly in, wander around inside for up to 5 minutes, crawl out, fly around the box closely looking at all sides, then check out the surroundings, then beeline southwest down the mountain. I took some photos and video of this behavior, though after I disturbed them by opening up the entrance, and with it being close to sundown, activity was minimal. I will take video tomorrow morning as I will be home most of the day, and hopefully I see more of what I think are scouts! What do you think folks? I watched a lot of videos of Scouting bees behavior, and read quite a bit, and this, at least to my inexperienced eyes, appears to fit the bill. There is no honey, nectar, or pollen in the combs in the box. It's totally empty comb. One of the 3 frames I have in there has wax moth damage, which I have heard helps with attracting bees. @Spur9, If I remember correctly, you said that you caught swarms in it before, and that definitely appears to be the case, as the inside of the trap is covered in propolis, and reeks of bees wax and a faint hint of LGO. I will edit the video of the trap footage I have right now and have it posted tonight. My line of thinking goes like this; If these were just scavengers, why would they keep returning in number? The only thing in there is wax and propolis. Perhaps they are harvesting that, though I have never heard of robbing of wax and propolis. Figure they would just make their own wax and harvest fresh propolis from all the trees around here. What do you all think?


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Started a new thread related to the swarm trap:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?336995-Scouts-or-Scavengers&p=1545172#post1545172


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

Well folks, I bring you very unfortunate news. After inspecting the hive today, I noticed that all of the new capped brood are drones. Add that to finding multiple eggs in almost all of the comb cells, and not finding a queen yet, and we have a queenless hive 
I spoke with my mentor, and he agreed. According to him, the only way to possibly save the hive is if I can get a second hive going, and then split it. I have a second hive body, now all I need are bees. I texted the gentleman who gave me the first swarm, and I hope he offers that to me again. Other than that, I am out of luck. Suggestions?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Did the guy that came over the first time give you the frame of brood you thought he was going to give you?

You are asking things now that are beyond my experaince level and so all I have to offer is good luck.
gww


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

The split i said to do what a week or two ago was the right thing to do. Spending 30 to 40 bucks woulda saved the bees free hand outs only last so long. This is not a cheap hobby.


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## gtwarren1966 (Jul 7, 2015)

Maybe your mentor could give you a frame of eggs and young brood once per week until the laying worker hive raises a queen.


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## fortytwo (May 9, 2017)

gtwarren1966 said:


> Maybe your mentor could give you a frame of eggs and young brood once per week until the laying worker hive raises a queen.


Depends how big of an apiary the mentor has. Not everyone has a frame of eggs and young brood to spare once every week.


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

Billboard said:


> The split i said to do what a week or two ago was the right thing to do. Spending 30 to 40 bucks woulda saved the bees free hand outs only last so long. This is not a cheap hobby.


IT WAS A SWARM!!! How, exactly, do you split a swarm?

Edit: Cooler heads prevail.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

One of the most repulsive things is the occasional unbridled offensiveness of some posts. 

They are rarely productive, and often cascade into a ridiculous waste of jabs, diverting from the OP question or questions.


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

Colobee said:


> One of the most repulsive things is the occasional unbridled offensiveness of some posts.
> 
> They are rarely productive, and often cascade into a ridiculous waste of jabs, diverting from the OP question or questions.


Point taken.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

BroncoVol74 said:


> IT WAS A SWARM!!! How, exactly, do you split a swarm?
> 
> Edit: Cooler heads prevail.


The same way you split a hive. Do i need to explain?


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

Billboard said:


> The same way you split a hive. Do i need to explain?


Yes. How do you split a five gallon bucket of bees?
opcorn:


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Then i guess your a idiot.


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

Billboard said:


> Then i guess your a idiot.


*you're an

Thanks for making my point.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Your right i am a today. Beekeeping is alot of common semse. Think about how to separate bees. Shake? Scoop? Whatever it takes to put them in separate boxes. Its not rocket science. And no i didnt prove your point.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

great...now there is a queen right split, and a queen less split in sepreate boxs
the OP has no other resources $$ or bees, were is the 2nd queen to come from as its a swarm with out eggs/larva


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

Billboard said:


> Your right i am a today. Beekeeping is alot of common semse. Think about how to separate bees. Shake? Scoop? Whatever it takes to put them in separate boxes. Its not rocket science. And no i didnt prove your point.


So let's go through this step by step:
A. This young man gets a five gallon bucket of bees with a presumed queen amongst the bees and takes it home.
B. He should then shake half of the bees into one hive with no drawn comb or brood and shake the other half into a separate hive with no drawn comb or brood.
C. The hive with the presumed queen should then be viable and make it just fine.
D. The other hive with no queen should be able to do what? 

I know it's not rocket science so even you should be able to discern that half a bucket of bees with no queen and no brood are basically half a bucket of dead bees.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

No you buy queens. Like i said beekeeping is not cheap. You can't always ask for hand outs. Sometimes you gotta spend a couple bucks. Hell he got enough free stuff why didnt you give him queens too.


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

Billboard said:


> No you buy queens. Like i said beekeeping is not cheap. You can't always ask for hand outs. Sometimes you gotta spend a couple bucks. Hell he got enough free stuff why didnt you give him queens too.


You're either unwittingly stupid or defiantly ignorant. 
He said on day one.


Beebomb123 said:


> ... I wish I could've done all of this exactly by the book, but bee equipment, hives, etc. are pretty expensive. I simply don't have the money, yet...


So, you might as well have suggested he burn that swarm and just go buy a functioning, viable apiary, complete with a honey house and staff to tend to all its needs. I would advise you to use some compassion and intelligence when offering help to a new beekeeper but I would have greater success in telling water to not be wet.


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## Jarred1982 (Jul 14, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> Just give it a little more time. :lpf:


...as predicted. Now the "apiarian community" is MAD...


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Im not mad. The people who went out of thier way should. He got so much free good stuff one would think hed spend a couple of bucks on HIS problem. Hes the one not doing anything. Instead its justgoing downhill fast. Its just a shame to see. And not tryong anything is just as bad. You dont need brood or eggs to keep bees where thier at. It just helps. So adding 1 or 2 queens to the picture can be the lifesaver. Probably not now if its LW but it shoulda been split and done at the beginning. The bees did have frames of some kind he tossed tge comb out i believe. So i think too many know it alls muzt not known it. I can only speculate to that but thats how i see it. And if you only do things by the book your never gunna learn that something else mite work. If i come off as a AH oh well. I really dont care what someone else thinks of me.


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## Beebomb123 (Apr 19, 2017)

@Billboard, "he'd spend a couple of bucks on HIS problem." 
I already said that I can spend enough to buy a new queen. No, I dont have $100+ to spend on a package, nuc, etc. I like to eat and have electricity. Plus the whole going to school thing. And beekeeping does not have to be an expensive hobby. People over in Nigeria who live in tin shacks keep bees. If they can, any one can. And I'm not asking anyone for anything that people would expect money for for free. I was given a swarm. According to the guy who gave them to me, they would die if left out in the open (he doesn't want more hives), so he just gIves swarms away when he can so his girls don't get killed. @Spur9 and @BroncoVol74 offered what they gave to me. I never asked. I did accept what they gave me, though. And gratefully so. 
"He's the one not doing anything." Come on, man. That's just needlessly insulting. I've been doing all I know how to do. Im entirely new to beekeeping. I'm going to go ahead and assume your trying to be helpful, and I appreciate the words of wisdom, but repeatedly rubbing in my face the whole splitting thing isn't cool. Number one, I didn't even know what that was or how to do it when I first got my swarm, and I probably couldn't afford it anyways. And number two, I really hope you aren't insinuating that I just shouldn't keep bees since I can not afford the fanciest this and that.


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## Jarred1982 (Jul 14, 2016)

Billboard you sound upset. It's no biggie.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

If it were possible to start over: Multiple queens have often been found in single swarms. Run the bees through a QE & hope. After the install, there will usually only be one queen, sooner than later. Once the presumably lone queen begins laying, a split is the next alternative. A large enough swarm can provide this opportunity. Much depends on the desired result - one big hive, or two smaller ones.

Perhaps another swarm will come along - it's that time of year here.

Good luck.


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