# kelley woodenware



## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm guessing they intend for you to do your prying on the solid side board that they evidently, according to your description, now have running the entire length of the box. I would have to say if this is the case I agree with you. I would also say that I have never known the WTK Co. not do anything possible to correct a customer complaint, and I'm betting they will yours also.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

I just went looking at their sight. I don't see the change mentioned,Is it not and they send you the new style you speak of? I am new to keeping and just curious of this change,I can't figure what you mean ended at the side board,I thought all hive box's are only rabbit cut on either end to support the frame.sorry about the Dumb thought? 

Tommyt


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## bennybee (Jul 10, 2008)

I would agree with you that Kelley will do anything to satisfy a customer. I've been doing business with them for awhile . There boxes were EXCELLENT. This however involves changing the whole set-up and I don't see that happening. i was told that this is the new style.


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## Trithemius (Dec 29, 2008)

bennybee said:


> Has anyone seen the new improved???? boxes from kelley? not good. They ended the rabbit for the frame rests at the side board.





tommyt said:


> I just went looking at their sight. I don't see the change mentioned,Is it not and they send you the new style you speak of? I am new to keeping and just curious of this change,I can't figure what you mean ended at the side board,I thought all hive box's are only rabbit cut on either end to support the frame.sorry about the Dumb thought?


:scratch: Any chance you could post a photo or drawing of the "new improved" boxes?


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

Benny, if I understand you correctly this means the rabbitt is not nailed off at each end to the side panels, it is self supporting. Right?


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## Merlyn Votaw (Jun 23, 2008)

I have had very little experience with Kelly but what I have had they would bend over backwards to correct it.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

*Trithemius* Any chance you could post a photo or drawing of the "new improved" boxes? 

I did try to post a picture from their page and it was HUGE. I will edit this post soon ,with a small cut out picture of the Rabbit hopefully then someone can use it too explain to us, what it is 
Be back shortly 

Tommyt
Now I tried the picture same as before and this time its small, I did no Picture editing?? Hope this helps 
It is really confusing me because when I posted earlier and looked at the Preview the box was so Big it
consumed my entire screen and was only a Portion of it 
Hope it works









This is the page I got it off of
http://www.kelleybees.com/CMS/CMSPage.aspx?redirect=n-3-38700818-aa71-4fdb-86c2-7b94c09d6c87


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## Bsupplier (Dec 23, 2008)

Hey Guys,
Yes we changed the box joint slightly. We feel that this change is going to strengthen the boxes. When I seperate my boxes I approach the back of the hive and all my prying is done on the long side of the box. With this new design you are prying on a full 3/4" thick board and not a smaller piece. I also dont think I have ever tried to seperate my boxes starting at a corner. My habit is to slip my hive tool in between the boxes about 1/3 of the way in from the back. They always seem to seperate fine. Now on the long side of the new design we dont predrill the very top because if you were to nail through this you will be trying to hit a 3/8" thin piece of wood. The 7 D nails we provide would probably split the wood. If you glue and staple/nail we feel this joint is better than the old one. This is not a cost cutting issue as it takes at least as long to make this as the old joint. As always, we do welcome your feedback and comments. I feel some people are just speculating that this is a weaker joint with out knowing for sure. You still have seven nails/ staples in each corner and with good glue it's not coming apart. Let me see if I can post a close up picture of the new design.
Thanks- W.T. Kelley


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## bigwoodsbees (Dec 24, 2010)

I purchased woodenware from Kelley in November and was very pleased with what I received. The order was packed well and shipped promptly and nothing was left out.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

*W.T. Kelley*
I am fairly new to keeping I applaud you for that post and you will get orders from me 

Happy New Year 

Tommyt


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## dtinberg (Jan 26, 2009)

I have to agree that the folks at Kelley are very accomodating. I have been satisfied with their boxes and woodware


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## bennybee (Jul 10, 2008)

I'm not saying WTK is not a good supplier. Everything I've bought has been top shelf compares to other suppliers. With this I guess we have to agree to disagree.


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## bennybee (Jul 10, 2008)

.


> I feel some people are just speculating that this is a weaker joint with out knowing for sure.


I assume I'm " some people". I'm a cabinet maker and a woodworker and I DO know my joints. And I do know for sure.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

bennybee said:


> .
> I assume I'm " some people". I'm a cabinet maker and a woodworker and I DO know my joints. And I do know for sure.


bennybee,

If you could post some closeup photos it would be nice...


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

The reply from Kelly did not mention the one problem that some people have had over the years with assembly of the normal rabbit cut going the entire length of the front and back of a bee box. You do need to be careful when nailing the first nail. The top joint is only about 1/3 as thick as the other box joints, and if you use too large a nail, or you pound too hard on that thin wood, you can split the wood at the bottom of the first joint or you can break off the end of the wood where the rabbit meets the first joint.

I haven't tried the new box, but I know Kelly put some thought into it before they marketed it. Their advice about where to pry, to open boxes, is good advice.

cchoganjr


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## Bsupplier (Dec 23, 2008)

That was exactly our thought. You have a piece of wood that is 3/8 in the corner with the old design. Too large a nail splits it and any prying can break it if your'e not careful. Even a smaller nail stresses it. On the new design using deeps, you are putting 11 nails/staples in each corner and glue. They arent coming apart. Benny, I did not intend to disrespect you or your abilities, but you have not field tested this design and I think you are worrying about something that has not occured. Why pry on the corners anyway? With 7-10 day inspections the boxes can be seperated easily by prying 1/3 of the way in on the long sides.
Change for us is not easy either. There is a lot more than meets the eye as far as tooling, set ups and the like. When we cut lumber we are talking about semi loads monthly. We would only do something that we feel improves our products, otherwise why change?
Thanks, 
WT Kelley Co.


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## bennybee (Jul 10, 2008)

you win WTK. I give up. I guess time will tell. You are a great company and sell quality equipment. I hope this works for you. I have never had a complaint about anything I've purchased from you. I wish you the best with this new design.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

bennybee.....I haven't seen the Walter Kelly box, and from the photo I can't tell exactly how it is built,... but after the discussion yesterday, I went out into the shop and built a five frame Nuc from the discussions posted yesterday.

First thing I found is that there are two ways to build the box joints without a lap on the top joint as current commercial boxes have.. If the first box cut on the bottom on the long side of a deep super is a valley, (then of course the bottom cut on front and rear will be a finger), this setup will leave a top finger (the one against the rabbit) of 1 5/8 inch. I think I might like that thicker finger on the front and rear of the long side, since this is where you pry deep supers open. But I don't know for sure. I had never thought about building the box joints this way. 

However if the first box cut on the bottom, on the long side, of a deep super is a finger, (then of course the first cut at bottom of front and rear will be a valley) the top finger against the rabbit will be 11/16 inch. This top finger would be weaker than the 1 5/8 above, or the current 11/16 lap..

I guess they need to be field tested for a couple of years to see which one will last longer. With glue and nails, I really don't believe there will be a great difference in the way the top finger/valley/rabbit is constructed. In current models, the thin top above the rabbit can split if you use too large a nail, don't drill a pilot hole, or pound too hard on that thin end piece of wood. On the new model, the end of the rabbit cut is not supported against a finger, it is simply butted up against a finger. The end is so thin (roughly 5/16 inch) it is probably too thin to use a nail or screw, so will only be supported by glue..

Hope to have photos I can post tomorrow to show what I mean. I am going to make a few and put them to a test this next year. I guess time will tell. I am always open to something new and better, and I am sure Kelly is too.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Here is a photo of a Nuc I built with a 1 11/16 top finger box joint. The top of the rabbit butts against the side wall and does not overlap the top finger. For those who like to open their boxes from the rear (which is not a good practice, because you are prying on top of the thin part of the rabbit) this joint will allow your hive tool to pry along the top of the side without touching the thin part of the rabbit. You eliminate the danger of breaking the top of the rabbit cut off.

I honestly don't know if this is better or worse. I guess the best thing to do is to try it for a few years and see how it works out. I plan to make a few and try them this year.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

http://s841.photobucket.com/albums/zz339/cchoganjr/?action=view&current=Nuc2.jpg

See if this comes through.

cchoganjr


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## bennybee (Jul 10, 2008)

Hi Cleo
what did you nail the nails from the side into on top?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I pre drilled and used a #4D nail. My thinking is it would give that thin part of the rabbit cut a little stability, and hold it firmly in place until the glue dried.

cchoganjr


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Ok I tried to put all I could in the Picture 
Please tell me which one is the weak Link 
hope this helps all 
Tommyt

Picture removed to help clear confusion


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Reference the photo submitted by Tommy T, I am not a cabinet maker, (so keep that in mind), but I have built several hundred bee boxes the past few years. To me the weak link in either of the designs, is the thin rail of the rabbit cut, (that portion that goes across the front and rear), which, in the new design, is unsupported except for the butt joint (and glue) on the inside of the the long side of the the bee box. I put a #4D nail in this thin piece, ( in my test box) but you will have to be careful in order to hit that small rail with the nail. Convential boxes over lap this long side with the thin cut of the rabbit joint. To me the greatest advantage of this new joint would be for those bee keepers who tend to break off that thin part of the rabbit, either in asembly or in those cases where they slide the hive tool in from the rear, as opposed to going a couple inches up the side (as you really should), and inserting the hive tool, and prying there to break the boxes apart. If you open from the rear, it is real easy to break (or compress, the top of that thin cut) as you pry down on that thin piece of the rabbit to break the boxes apart.. 

Here I think it would be a good idea for older bee keepers to help new bee keepers by advising them not to pry on that thin board. Go up the side a couple of inches, insert the hive tool and pry there. The design has been around for 150 years, and even without experience, bee keepers have survived, so we will just have to see how this new joint works out. As I said, I am going to make a few deeps, and shallows, and try them for a couple of years and see how they perform in relation to the older design. 

I do agree with Kelly, with the number of nails, staples, and glue, strenth should not be a major issue. I have not talked to Kelly, but keep in mind that for every one commercial bee keeper, who knows the ends and outs of equipment and supplies, Kelly probably sells supplies to a 100 bee keepers who are less experienced. They are always looking for a way to help the average or less than average bee keeper (who make up the largest population of bee keepers), as well as those more experienced. They are good people, and if anyone has a problem, I believe they will work with them to make it right.

If I can ever help you or anyone else, feel free to contact me at [email protected] and I will do my best to help.

cchoganjr


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We pry on the 3/8 thick section because that is where your hand is when you walk up to the side of the hive. We see more damage from other causes, such as droppping on that edge, and bees chewing on it, when the upper set back is less than a bee space. 

We scrape our supers before they are put away for the year, and the damaged ones are culled. We have pre-made strips, 3/8 x 3/4 x 16 1/4, and set the saw to remove the frame rest. I can see that this design would require 2 passes to remove the material, or one pass and a shorter repair piece. 

We use 5 penny Maze naills going into the 3/4 end grain, and have had few problems. 

But like someone said, we may just have to let them see the test of time.


Roland


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## Trithemius (Dec 29, 2008)

I haven't had a chance to see the new Kelley box joint but it sounds like an improvement to me.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

*cchoganjr *
* I am sorry I now realize this is not your Post* but in fact a Box you made for us to Look at Please excuse my, absent mindedness 
I put that up thinking it was the WTK BOX and folks could use the colors to say what and where the WTK box is no longer as strong as it once was 
I have to say I like the top Box cut being twice the size as the rest in your picture

Tommyt


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Everyone....... Let me make sure everyone knows the posts of the 9 photos I posted, are not of Kelly Boxes. They are of boxes I made. I have not seen a box made by Kelly using the new design. I just took the discussion in the posts on page one and two and made a Nuc, just to see how the design would look, and to share it with all of you.

Kelly will make more boxes in one day than I will all year. I am not in their league with either equipment or experience in making boxes.

cchoganjr


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

For clarity, my coments where directed to Cleo's image he posted. Not Kelly's. Can anyone post a picture of the Kelley box?


Roland


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## bennybee (Jul 10, 2008)

Roland said:


> . Can anyone post a picture of the Kelley box?
> 
> 
> I can't but maybe kelley could


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

I have also ordered recently from Kelly bees and have been very satisfied so far. I ordered some deeps back the week of Thanksgiving and I believe I have the new box design. I don't have one assembled yet, but from these 2 pictures you ought to be able to see the new joint very easily. Please let me know if you're able to see them from one of the two addys. . . 

http://s1176.photobucket.com/albums/x323/delber2/

http://s1176.photobucket.com/albums...=slideshow&track=share_email_album_view_click


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

Yes, the new design shows in the pictures. Only time will tell how they hold up.


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## JRH (Dec 30, 2010)

To Cleo Hogan - Saw your woodwork at Photobucket and was very impressed with the designs and quality. Would you please elaborate on how you make the handholds with a Skil saw and the Hogan Jig?

Many thanks.
Jeff Hills


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Thank you Delber, you have parted the haze.

Roland


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I can see by looking at the photos posted by delber, that the new Kelly Box has a single width finger at the top, on the long side. I thought it was going to have the width of two fingers, as in the one I built. This new design by Kelly will be easier to make, all you do is reverse the starting point of the box joints on your jig. Current models, front and back, start with a finger, and sides start with a valley. To make this new model all you do is reverse the operation.... start the front and back with a valley and the sides with a finger. You eliminate the 3/8 cut in the top finger on the sides.

I honestlly don't think it will make a lot of difference which way they are made. The important thing is how you handle them,(carrying, storing, dropping, etc.) and how you use the hive tool to seperate your boxes.

cchoganjr


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

Well, after building twenty of Kellys new improved supers I have an opinion. They are not the same. Having the frame rabbit end short of the sides gives no place to nail together.
I feel that this is a cheap way to make a box and there is no way to draw up the top joint. You have to use two bar clamps to hold it in place while glue sets. The old style you just used the small nail at the top to hold in place. Having that little 3/8 rail without a nail or some stronger wood will make it snap off first time any pressure is applied to it. I found two broke off in the carton before assembly. I hope they offer the old style soon cause I'm not buying these again.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Well, after six months is there any more feedback on Kelly's new design?


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