# The optimal cluster cavity???



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Every size has been tried over the centuries and we could discuss this ad infinitum. I have tried standard langs, Brother Adam 12 frame hives with 11 1/4" frames, and have a lot of hives (for me) with 11 1/4" frames in ten frame boxes. I recently after 45 years started some all medium depth 8 frame hives. I tried my Gargantuan boxes (do a search on BS) and those taught me two things. Any frame deeper than 11 1/4" is as you said, is a chore weight wise, unless you don't work your brood chambers very often. I do not object to the width of a ten frame box because those give one a nice full slab of honey storage on each side insulating and feeding the brood on the inner eight frames. My eight frame box size experience is too short to draw any conclusions. I have 36 years experience with Brother Adam hives and find that they produce excellently. Their brood chamber weight is not more than a double Lang. And a square medium depth honey super weight is in the range of any good laborer. The single box in which to search for a queen is also advantageous. In my climate, the brood chamber has to be cleared of excess stores, and it is hard to find an extractor with which to empty the frames. 
Any box and frame not compatible with what you have and what is standard is an inconvenience. I had to order 19 7/8" square queen excluders from Denmark. Eduardo has recently posted those videos of the Portugese single brood chamber, and it looked like a good solution, square and deep. Somewhere near 16" square would seem ideal to me. The brood chamber size needs for a commercial pollinator might differ greatly from a honey producer. An 18-20" tall frame is unmanageable. These frames fit two 8 1/2" sheets of foundation. I am shutting down the last of them this year. The problem with my Garantuan brood chambers was that all the honey ended up in the brood chamber, the bees were not squeezed into the supers, the frames were not extractable. This year I am going to venture into ten frame 1 1/2 brood chambers with both 9 1/8" and 11 1/4" dep frames in the deeper box and medium depth for the 1/2 box. 




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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

There is an older timer near my area. He knew Mr. Walter T Kelley very well. He swears by his double deep size frames. He puts 1-3 in the center of the brood nest, claims the winter better. He takes them out in spring and repeats in fall.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Seeley's work suggests bees choose a natural nest cavity volume equivalent to a single deep. I use a nuc box that holds ten half-length frames, actually, the frames are a little less than half length. Two deeps or three mediums winter beautifully, although the outside frames in these little boxes do not get used as much. In just playing around with configurations, I made some half-length 5 frame deeps. I double stacked them and they wintered great too, but were too unstable. Your 12-16 square configuration seems about right.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I think after so many beekeepers before us they would have figure out the most optimal
bee boxes for their operation already. Maybe they had experimented a lot to come up with
the most efficient version that we are using now.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I think the langs are not really for the bees they are for the beekeeper. As a new beekeeper, I need all the help I can get. 

It is really tempting to try some of the different styles of hives to see what happens. These deep, deep boxes are interesting, but what would happen if the bees put a lot of bridge comb in it. I think my bees would really like these hives because they would keep me from opening them up very often.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Perhaps beekeepers and bees are at odds on the issue? For wintering, I find that bees winter best, in a cold environment, if they have a smaller more vertical cavity size packed with food. However, when they get going in the spring, they quickly outgrow smaller cavities and swarm if left unchecked by the beekeepers. Is the 10-frame box optimal for the bees or the beekeeper?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

JSL said:


> Perhaps beekeepers and bees are at odds on the issue? For wintering, I find that bees winter best, in a cold environment, if they have a smaller more vertical cavity size packed with food. However, when they get going in the spring, they quickly outgrow smaller cavities and swarm if left unchecked by the beekeepers. Is the 10-frame box optimal for the bees or the beekeeper?


As a REALTOR it is tempting for me to want to line up a bunch of different hive and let the bees choose. I'm afraid they would choose a nearby tree.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

beepro said:


> I think after so many beekeepers before us they would have figure out the most optimal
> bee boxes for their operation already. Maybe they had experimented a lot to come up with
> the most efficient version that we are using now.


Exactly. No need to reinvent the wheel.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

dsegrest said:


> As a REALTOR it is tempting for me to want to line up a bunch of different hive and let the bees choose. I'm afraid they would choose a nearby tree.


Why don't you find out?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

JSL said:


> Is the 10-frame box optimal for the bees or the beekeeper?


Depends on the bees and where they live. I think the proper cavity size for production hives where I keep bees...for the year and not one season...is two 10 frame deeps and a medium super. Single 10 frame box isn't nearly large enough to stop swarming, raise a proper honey gathering population, or raise a proper cluster for wintering while, at the same time, storing the needed winter feed. I'm sure I would think differently if I kept bees in a different climate.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

TalonRedding said:


> Why don't you find out?


Don't like to climb trees.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Neh....just don't look down. 
I wouldn't put them higher than 7 or 8 ft. I've offered two boxes before, which is optimal for an established colony but swarms will go to a single 9 times out of 10 for me. I wish I could explain the reasoning but I can't. :scratch:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think the ideal diameter, at least in a very cold climate like mine, is one that fills the box. This will vary by the size of the cluster which will vary by the time of the year the colony started and the race of bees and the flow that year...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I often think one more frame in the brood nest would be nice. More space for late summer feed as I push them all down into one box.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ian , you are not alone. There is some old 11 frame equipment up in the rafters.

We must be doing something wrong. Single deep brood chamber, no DETECTABLE swarm issues, populace hives(per an outside observer)and enough space for winter feed. It all depends on how you manage, or don't manage, your bees.

Crazy Roland


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