# Do you sell Treatment Free Honey? Does it garner a higher price per pound?



## BareHoney (Jan 2, 2011)

A question for treatment free honey sellers. Are you able to get a premium for your honey? If so, what % above average retail. Currently national avg. is $5.30/lb plastic or glass retail(april bee culture)


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

What ever the market will bear above $7 a pound....$7 is my base.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The answer is yes, but it's pretty obvious I live in an area where prices are lower than the national average. At Walmart here, honey can be had for under three dollars a pound. I sell mine for six. I probably need to raise prices because I sold out my year's supply in six months.


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

well Im not treatment free just organic, (organic husbandry, I dont advertise organic honey) wall mart sells it for less than $3 a pound, most local beeks sell quarts for 10 I sell mine for 15 a quart and I cant possibly keep up with demand, I am going to raise my prices on sourwood this year.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

We are chemical free but don't think I'd advertise that on the bottle. Could give beekeeping a bad name for the uninformed.
Can get cheep honey here from walmart, & costco, but is it even honey? People want local honey they won't find that there, & I wouldn't want to compete with them at those prices.
Local beekeepers here sell for $10 per pound. People looking for local honey don't bat an eye at the price. One grocery store sells 1/2 pounders from a local beekeeper for $20


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The price in barrels wholesale is the same.

Crazy Roland
Linden Apiary, Est. 1852


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

I don't treat my bees with anything but sugar, if they need it and pollen sub in the fall and winter. When I tell people that my bees are treatment free and I don't put chemicals in my hives they look at me like I am crazy. I feel like the thought that is going through their heads is "Of course you don't, nobody would and they go down to the next table and buy a quart of insecticide honey for $8 and don't ask any questions. He sells 6 or 7 gallons at $8 a quart and I sell 6 or 7 pints for $6. It is more cost effective for my time to sell in 5 gal buckets for $120-$140.


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## willrich68 (Jan 8, 2010)

I treat my bees with respect only. I leave enough honey for them to overwinter and for spring build up. I sell my honey for $1.00 an ounce. I do explain to all of my customers about treated honey and untreated honey. I also give my customers a few questions to ask the next beekeeper about how they treat their hives. Education is the key to help us clean up our indrustry. 
My opinion is worth what you just paid for it.
William Richardson


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

You don't control what gets sprayed on the crops that your bees are collecting nectar from to make your honey so IMO it is mis-leading to advertise your honey as treatment free, natural, organic or any other name that implies that your honey is better then the next guys.... Also if you feed or treat with processed sugar you are not chemical free. You are putting the chemical compound C12H22O11 in your hives. Plus if you are using foundation you are putting all kinds of chemicals in there 

Education works in both directions


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

I stand corrected, I am not putting anything in my hives that is not sold for human consumption except foundation.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

bluegrass said:


> You don't control what gets sprayed on the crops that your bees are collecting nectar from to make your honey...


...but you do control the substances that go into a feeder or are placed in the hive by the beekeeper...these are the substances that show up at the highest levels in the hive.




> so IMO it is mis-leading to advertise your honey as treatment free, natural, organic or any other name that implies that your honey is better then the next guys....


...what if you have tested the "next guys" honey and found it to be 5% to 30% beet sugar (I have...and it does)? is this really the same as honey that has no beet sugar in it? (my customers don't think so, and I expect yours don't either). is it misleading to sell "pure" honey that is 5% beet sugar? 30%? the nhb wants consumers to believe that if it is extracted from the comb that it is pure honey...I call that pure hooey!

one might pay more for coffee that is "fair trade", one might pay more for yardwork that is done by U.S. citizens, one might pay more for products that are not produced with slave labor, one might pay more for beef that is not factory farmed. why should consumers not be given the option of paying a premium for excelent honey that is produced without treatments and without artificial feeding?



> Also if you feed or treat with processed sugar you are not chemical free. You are putting the chemical compound C12H22O11 in your hives. Plus if you are using foundation you are putting all kinds of chemicals in there


errr, ok...but nails are made of metal with a chemical forumula, ditto with glue (and even wood). the "chemical free" tag is a red flag that someone is likely considering essential oils or organic acids as "natural" and not "chemical"...but of course everyone is treating with synthesized thymol. one local producer advertises that his honey is produced without miticides....yet he (in newspaper articles) admits to using organic acids for mite control....i suppose it is just a side effect of bleaching the top bars.

deknow



> Education works in both directions


i


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Please remember that discussions of what is or is not treatment free beekeeping should be kept to threads addressed as such.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

deknow said:


> ...
> 
> 
> ...what if you have tested the "next guys" honey and found it to be 5% to 30% beet sugar (I have...and it does)? is this really the same as honey that has no beet sugar in it? (my customers don't think so, and I expect yours don't either). is it misleading to sell "pure" honey that is 5% beet sugar? 30%? the nhb wants consumers to believe that if it is extracted from the comb that it is pure honey...I call that pure hooey!
> ...


My point is that short of testing your own honey and providing a certificate from a lab to the customer stating that your honey is pure it is miss-leading to advertise it as such. Your bees may be robbing the feeders of your neighbor’s hives and you don't even know it. They may have found a way to rob the corn syrup tank at the local coke bottling plant and be making honey out of that. May be your local dairy farmer left the lid off of the molasses tank and what you think is buckwheat honey is actually adulterated with mollasses. 

As far as charging a premium for "treatment free" honey, let’s look at it from a different perspective.

Let’s say a farmer milk cows and sell milk. Some feed their cows growth hormone and it gets in the milk. There are two bulk truck companies delivering milk to the bottling plant and they both collect milk from farms that use growth hormone and farms that don't. One bulk truck company washes and waxes their trucks every day and the other company never washes their trucks. In the grand scheme of milk sales does the truck company that doesn't wash their trucks get a higher price for their milk because it is car wax free? Your bees are just mini tanker trucks... When it comes to the honey the thing that really matters is what the crops that honey was made from was treated with. Because short of owning 8 square miles around every hive we cannot be sure what is in our honey, we should not be charging a premium because we do not "clean" the "tanker" that delivers that nectar to the colony.

Charge a premium for local honey or raw honey if you like, but in my opinion that is a far as we can go while still being honest with the customer.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

bluegrass said:


> we should not be charging a premium because we do not "clean" the "tanker" that delivers that nectar to the colony.


If you don't think so, then don't. Don't tell others how you think they should do it. If there wasn't a market, we couldn't sell at a premium. I'll call it treatment free, because that's what it is.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

bluegrass said:


> we should not be charging a premium because we do not "clean" the "tanker" that delivers that nectar to the colony.


Cleaning the tanker on the outside has no affect on the inside. Using chemicals on the inside of a hive has an affect on the honey that's on the inside. Many, many studies show this to be fact.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

for the life of me, I can't see what is misleading about labeling honey produced from bees that aren't fed and aren't treated as treatment free.

deknow


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

deknow said:


> for the life of me, I can't see what is misleading about labeling honey produced from bees that aren't fed and aren't treated as treatment free.
> 
> deknow


The question here is not about labeling, it is about pricing, it is the pricing part that I would consider miss-leading. An organic dairy farmer gets a premium because it costs more to feed organic feeds and get the certificate to be organic. I was an organic dairy farmer once, it is a minimum of two years of work before you get the label and premium for being organic. Two years of higher costs and hard work.

What are the added costs of being treatment free compaired to treating? Where is the certificate that that proves the honey your customer is purchasing is better than the next guys? What is the added benifit of the product to the cutomer and how are you going to physically show them that benifit?


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Barry said:


> Cleaning the tanker on the outside has no affect on the inside. Using chemicals on the inside of a hive has an affect on the honey that's on the inside. Many, many studies show this to be fact.


there are also many studies showing you can treat your hive with miticides and if you have no honey boxs on at the time you wont have any residue show in your honey or in your cappings wax or the wax in your honey box.

we treat and we have our honey and wax rigorously tested , no residues to date.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

deknow said:


> for the life of me, I can't see what is misleading about labeling honey produced from bees that aren't fed and aren't treated as treatment free.
> 
> deknow


I dont think it's misleading calling it treatment free but I dont think you could get away with calling it chemical free or organic, unless as has been mentioned before you own the land for 8 miles around and haven't used any chemicals on it for whatever period of time is required to receive organic status


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

deknow, you say you tested your beekeeper neighbours honey and found it had beet sugar in it.

Can you tell us how you tested for this? 
from what I understand testing for beet sugar in honey is very expensive, prohibitively so, and the analysis that has to be gone through is very extensive.


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

this sounds alot like when people ridicule organic produce, saying it isnt any better for you than non-organic produce........
for me and I think alot of other people, its not about wich honey,produce, etc.... is better for me, its about wich one is better for the planet.

I dont think there is a beekeeper out there that dosent want bees to flourish on there own, and I beleive that the treatment free beeks are on the forefront of making that a reality. if they want to charge a premium for there products I will stand in line with the rest of us tree(or should I say BEE!) huggers to fork over the cash.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

bluegrass said:


> The question here is not about labeling, it is about pricing, it is the pricing part that I would consider miss-leading.


...what is misleading about the pricing? for the producers we work with, we increased the bulk price they were previously getting from the packers by 2-4 times! the consumers know what they can buy at the supermarket, specialty stores, and from other beekeepers. we give out hundreds of tastes a day and our prices are clearly displayed. all of the stores we sell in also have less expensive honey. most of the markets we sell at directly are in close proximity to stores where less expensive honey can be purchased (one is in a whole foods parking lot).

we happily pay a high price for a quality product. we also advertise where the honey comes from (who produces it), and maintain a certified food facility to bottle the honey (something that beekeepers that buy in honey to sell as their own never do, even though most states require this by law). if we didn't have customers that were thrilled to get a quality product and willing to pay for it, we would be out of business tomorrow.

when we tested honey (including what we are selling), we found $11/lb honey "from an organic farm" (actually, it was bought in from a larger producer) that was 30% beet sugar (this was at a very fancy health food store that has been in business for over 30 years)....in the same store, the actual locally produced stuff tested at 5% beet sugar (the producer said, "that sounds about right" when we discussed it with him). ...another sample from another fancy specialty store (also bought in by a smaller beekeeper) was 15% and 20% beet sugar (we took samples from the liquid portion and from the crystallized portion).

we also sent in samples from our own bees, and other honey from beekeepers that don't feed (including the honey we sell).....all came up 100% honey.

this is all domestic honey we are talking about...we have not even gotten into transhipped honey, honey cut with rice syrup (that the conventional tests can't detect).



> An organic dairy farmer gets a premium because it costs more to feed organic feeds and get the certificate to be organic.


absolutely false. an organic dairy farmer gets a premium because they have customers that are willing to pay a premium for their product.



> I was an organic dairy farmer once, it is a minimum of two years of work before you get the label and premium for being organic. Two years of higher costs and hard work.


...you make it sound like the NOP gives you a license to charge a premium. the price is between you and the customer, and has nothing to do with government regulation (unless you are misrepresenting your product).



> What are the added costs of being treatment free compaired to treating? Where is the certificate that that proves the honey your customer is purchasing is better than the next guys? What is the added benifit of the product to the cutomer and how are you going to physically show them that benifit?


we do not live in a socialist contry where prices are dictated by the government (or at least I don't).

there is no "certificate" proving one brand of orange juice tastes better than another...yet the prices (and taste, and quality) differ on the store shelves. consumers often buy name brands that they know and trust over store brands, generic brands, discount brands, etc....not because there is a certificate showing one is better than another, but because there are brands that people have come to trust..even when the price is higher. ever buy asprin at a drug store? notice that the name brand stuff is more expensive than the store brand stuff? according to the labels, they contain the same stuff in the same quantities.

as for added costs....bees that are not artificially fed consume more honey (more expensive). honey that doesn't contain 30% beet sugar is more expensive to produce. routine treatments (and feed) applied by semiskilled labor on a schedule is less expensive than having a skilled beekeeper inspect and take appropriate action based on the needs of an individual colony. beekeepers that sell their own crop only don't buy in other people's honey to sell at a profit in a year of poor production have higher risks than beekeepers that buy in honey to "hold" their customers.

with all that said, we are quite confident about the quality of the products we offer (and we have done enough research and testing to know that the competition isn't always so good). I don't feel like we have anything to apologize for. feel free to order some of our products online and evaluate it yourself if you have any doubts.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...testing for sugar adulteration isn't so expensive, but the standard tests can't tell the difference between rice syrup and nectar. testing for chemicals and antibiotics is much more expensive.

the tests we had run were done using nearfield IR spectroscopy, a technolgy being produced by Polarmetrics.

deknow


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

hipbee said:


> I dont think there is a beekeeper out there that dosent want bees to flourish on there own, and I beleive that the treatment free beeks are on the forefront of making that a reality.


LOL do you really !


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

LOL? yeah I sure do.......I mean If you can keep bees without treatments and not loose your shirt you are way ahead of the rest of us.

do you really think the next silver bullet chemical treatment that comes along will be the answere to all of our problems? now that I find funny.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

how long do you think it will take before no one needs to treat their bees?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Since when does anyone need to?


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Solomon Parker said:


> Since when does anyone need to?


LOl thats even funnier


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

t:

This thread was about the price of honey...


The last bottles that were sold for me went for $12 a lb.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Yep....after reading this thread my prices are going way up!!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I know right? Perhaps undercutting my other beekeeping friends is not as good an idea as I thought.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

hipbee said:


> this sounds alot like when people ridicule organic produce, saying it isnt any better for you than non-organic produce........
> for me and I think alot of other people, its not about wich honey,produce, etc.... is better for me, its about wich one is better for the planet.


The difference being that Treatment free honey doesn't mean it is synthetic chemical free. That treatment free honey may have been collected from dandylions that just got sprayed with roundup that am and now has traces of glyphosphate in it. You go out and buy an organic zucchini you know it has no chemical residue on or in it. If you want organic honey you can buy it USDA certified, most comes from south america.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I put very little weight in anything the government certifies.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

bluegrass said:


> You go out and buy an organic zucchini you know it has no chemical residue on or in it.


...again, this is absolutely false, and shows a lack of understanding of what the organic produce standards actually are and how the entire NOP works. If you want to discuss "certified organic", please educate yourself as to what the term means (it DOES NOT MEAN "NO CHEMICAL RESIDUE ON OR IN IT).

in the case of honey, different standards are used to define "organic" (at this point, it seems to depend quite a bit on who the certifying agency is....a certifying agency is an independent business that makes much more money when it can certify an operation than it can by rejecting them, and there are no clear guidelines at this point).

regardless, all of the standards that I'm aware of allow for feeding with sugar (organic sugar), allow the use of essential oils and organic acids. the treatment free honey we sell is produced with none of these substances that beekeepers intentionally put inside the hive. ...in some market research, we even had one supplier of certified organic bulk honey claim that the bees were fed organic HFCS.



> That treatment free honey may have been collected from dandylions that just got sprayed with roundup that am and now has traces of glyphosphate in it.


...and what do you think the standards are for water irrigating organic crops? washing those organic crops? water made available for organic bees? (hint, there are none above general health standards).

deknow


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

If the subject is "organic honey" I would be more than happy to put my "commercially raised" honey up against anyone elses to be tested for ANYTHING that you want to test for and I will let them select the drum and pull the sample themselves. In this day and age of ppb testing I think we all know that certifying honey as organic is a joke. Recently had a very large commercial packer run our samples through all their testing and their conclusion was how much can we buy.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...if we are to use "organic" to discuss USDA certified organic (which is the only way one can legally use the term on a product), then how the honey tests is besides the point, and not part of the certification process.

certified organic has to do with the process by which it is produced, not with any residues (chemical or otherwise) found in the final product.\

until people understand this, it is absolutely impossible to have a discussion about "organic honey".

deknow


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

Started following this thread and I am in the process of looking up what organic honey is and what USDA Certified Organic Honey is.

So far, only a few articles have come up, but this one seems to agree with my thoughts on the subject. There are no real standards for setting up what organic honey is.

http://livingmaxwell.com/organic-honey-certified

I could be totally wrong and I am not understanding the process.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

The new trend in organic certification is falsifying those certifications. Already there are numerous companies in South Amercia that will certify you if you just pay the fee. Anything coming out of China with a certification...forget about it. There are more and more reports of these types of fake certifications. Organic farming is very expensive to get going. When you see massive amounts of products that are organic coming from 3rd world countries were money is in short supply, especially where pests are a huge problem with farming and no regalatory standards for chemical use, my advice is use common sense and think before just believing what is on a label.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Lots of further frustrating info on organic honey in this recent thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ic-Honey-is-Certified&highlight=organic+honey


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

BareHoney said:


> A question for treatment free honey sellers. Are you able to get a premium for your honey? If so, what % above average retail. Currently national avg. is $5.30/lb plastic or glass retail(april bee culture)


So I guess you got no clear cut answer? Just shows how diverse a group of people can be. It is really dependent on your market; if the guy next to you is selling honey cheap you are going to have to be competitive with that price regardless of your management practices. The general belief of the public is that you stick bees in a hive and take honey from them every year. They don't understand treatment free when it comes to honey and they think organics are all the same regardless of it being honey or a carrot. 

If you want to go treatment free in order to make more money then you are doing it for the wrong reasons. Some people have a knack for keeping bees treatment free and other people just end up with a lot of dead bees. Going treatment free can save you a lot of money or cost you a lot of money. In general it isn't going to make you a lot more money.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Findlay: I didn't read that article in detail, but in skimming it, it seemed pretty accurate. Don't forget, however, the relationship between the beekeeper and the certifier....a certifier that won't certify an operation after collecting a fee will not be the same certifier that the beekeeper calls to inspect next year. on the other hand, once certified, the beekeeper is most likley to pay that same certifier year after year. Now, who is going to fail a client that wants to give you money year after year?

bluegrass:


> if the guy next to you is selling honey cheap you are going to have to be competitive with that price regardless of your management practices.


not true


> The general belief of the public is that you stick bees in a hive and take honey from them every year. They don't understand treatment free when it comes to honey and they think organics are all the same regardless of it being honey or a carrot.


...either our customers are much smarter than yours, or we spend much more time and energy educating them. certainly this is what most believe...but they can be educated...and if they trust you it can pay off.


> If you want to go treatment free in order to make more money then you are doing it for the wrong reasons.


...and the right reasons include "i want to make less money"? the treatment free commercial beekeepers we work with make more money than they would if they were not treatment free.

deknow


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Deknow

Just out of curiosity: do you know how to express your opinions on a forum without trying to degrade what everybody else says? Our opinions are very different because we have had different experience in our lives. That doesn't make everything I say wrong. I don't know your background and you don't know mine, Please be respectful of my post.
Thanks.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Please excuse me....and please read the thread again from the beginning.

Bluegrass...you have expressed many opinions here, including that it is misleading to label honey as treatment free, misleading to charge extra for honey that is treatment free, that any designation or premium must be accompanied by some kind of certificate, etc. I don't agree with these opinions, and I have stated so. I think you would have a hard time demonstrating that these opinions aren't intended to "degrade" those selling treatment free honey at a premium...from my perspective your opinion is that I'm misleading my customers.

My experience is that I make my living selling treatment free honey, and that I have tested "the next guy's" honey (and ours)...I know it isn't an equivalent product and somehow (mostly by talking to customers and store clerks and aggressively giving out tastes) our customers have figured this out as well.

This is to say that I know for a fact that treatment free honey can demand more per pound than all but the most expensive organic manuka honey. I know for a fact that our producers are getting far above any published bulk rate that you will find anywhere. I know for a fact that even the local honey that is locally produced had 5% beet sugar (last years crop...most notably, the producer wasn't surprised). I know for a fact that much of my competition in our market is with beekeepers who buy in honey from large commercial operations and sell it as their own....and I know for a fact that some of this tested 30% beet sugar.

These facts lead me to believe that it isn't necessary to drop prices to match those of your competition, that customers can be taught about commercial beekeeping and what treatment free honey is and isn't, and that one can make more money producing treatment free honey.

You are more than welcome to hold the opinion that increased profits are the wrong reason for keeping bees without treatments....it's all yours.

deknow


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## DigitalBishop (Nov 11, 2009)

I don't have the experience that all of you have. Though I can relate to the higher pricing of local treatment free honey. Though I only have two hives, I do plan to expand. When people get wind that I keep bees they immediately ask if I have any honey to sell them. I tell them when I do have it I'll sell it for $12 a pound. Smaller bottles go for around a dollar per pound. Not one person I've talked to has flinched or batted an eye upon hearing the price. They go right to "You better bring me some when you harvest!". I could have a fairly decent waiting list if I made one. I don't think it's the treatment free aspect that gets people chasing me for my honey, but more that it's *local*. I would say it's more of a trust issue. When a person hears that I'm a beekeeper more often than not they light up and conversation goes right to how they could acquire honey from me.

Jamie


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I agree w/ those who produce, promote and sell honey labeled treatment free. It's obvious, by their experience, that one can command and recieve a higher price. One aught to also look where this is being done, MA. The people who will pay more for something they think is better live there. (not a critisism)

Also, were I one of two honey sellers beside each other at a Farmers Mkt, you can bet that my honey would be priced higher than the other guy, no matter what. It's the intelligent thing to do.

Arguing about this is, imo, silly. Deknow answered the op's questions and did so accurately and honestly.

Yes, you can. Do it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> So far, only a few articles have come up, but this one seems to agree with my thoughts on the subject. There are no real standards for setting up what organic honey is.
> 
> http://livingmaxwell.com/organic-honey-certified


After reading the article there appears that there is a standard but it is not USDA's standard. When it comes to organics it is a question of is it certified or isn't it. If it is not it could be better or far worse than the certified. That is what certification is. A control of how a food item is produced. Just like USDA meat, it doesn't mean the meat is any good it just means that how it was produced was according to an acceptable procedure.

Local treatment free honey is a faith thing where you either trust the person selling or you don't. If you really trust him you will probably pay a premium for his goods.

We bought some honey in Greece just to try it and it probably cost 20/pound. I would have to say we could have gotten the same thing at WalMart. So far nothing has come close to the taste of our own honey. I am wondering if part of that difference is it was right from the hive and not 6 months old. Although it is about 6 months old right now.

I don't think we would have any trouble getting 10/pound if we were willing to sell it. We are not willing because of the short supply.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

I just bought a $12 (1 lb) bottle of local honey as a birthday gift to a friend. I didn't have my own honey yet, but I knew the beekeeper, had been in their hives with them, and was proud to be able to tell my friend about the honey and where/who it came from when I presented it to her. For myself, until I get some of my own honey, I'll keep buying local honey that I know where it comes from, a little less pricey than that bottle but I'm HAPPY to pay quite a lot more for good untreated hive honey. 
Most of my friends know that local honey helps with pollen allergies, so they often buy local at the farmer's market or the health food store. Though they have heard about contaminated Chinese honey, they _don't_ generally realize that many beekeepers here in the US put pesticides or antibiotics into their hives. If they did they would certainly seek TF honey, as they seek out organic veggies and fruit and willingly pay a premium for those already.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Now, who is going to fail a client that wants to give you money year after year?


One that doesn't want to get caught looking the other way because it is the end of the gravy train.



> [they don't generally realize that many beekeepers here in the US put pesticides or antibiotics into their hives.


Omie, it is your job to inform them.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...I should also add that although we do sell a small amount of our own honey from our own bees, the bulk of our business is selling honey from Vermont and Arizona...our main markets are in Massachusetts and New York (in addition to online sales). 
The name and location of the actual producer of the honey is on the label in larger letters than our company name.
We maintain a certified food production facility so that we can sell honey that we have purchased in bulk.

When I am talking about selling treatment free honey, I am not talking about "local" or "from the beekeeper", I am talking about treatment free honey.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> > [they don't generally realize that many beekeepers here in the US put pesticides or antibiotics into their hives. /QUOTE]
> >
> > Omie, it is your job to inform them.
> 
> ...


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

I already have a job!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Promote the purity and value of your own product.


This is what I was suggesting to Omie. You don't have to name names.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> If you want to go around saying that Soandso's Honey is produced using chemicals, you better have evidence or you may end up ion court.


interesting point. the local honey we tested that came back as 5% beet sugar has on the label "produced without miticides"....but in local newspaper stoires they talk about organic acids for mite control.

FWIW, I don't talk to customers about what specific beekeepers do, I do talk about what happens in the industry, and when customers ask about specific producers, I tell them to ask the producer themselves.

deknow


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I've heard the term "natural treatments" used by Don K. and others, including on the organically managed beekeeping podcast.

"Natural Treatment" is an oxymoron for bees. With humans it's different, we're made to eat a whole range of foods and herbs and even non-food items. Bees eat very few.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

deknow said:


> When I am talking about selling treatment free honey, I am not talking about "local" or "from the beekeeper", I am talking about treatment free honey.
> 
> deknow


That is a very important differentiation; thanks for pointing that out. Like I said in my IM to you, you have a great website and very good marketing strategy. One thing I am curious about is why you choose to import honey from Vermont and Arizona when treatment free honey is available right in CT and MA? I understand Vermont from a marketing standpoint. Do you think if you were buying the same quality honey from a producer in Fairfield county CT you would be able to market it at the same price as you do the VT honey or is it being from VT an important part of the marketing in your area?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> interesting point. the local honey we tested that came back as 5% beet sugar has on the label "produced without miticides"....but in local newspaper stoires they talk about organic acids for mite control.
> 
> FWIW, I don't talk to customers about what specific beekeepers do, I do talk about what happens in the industry, and when customers ask about specific producers, I tell them to ask the producer themselves.
> 
> deknow


Good advice. Good to know. Good policy.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I don't know of any beekeepers selling bulk honey (by the 55 gallon drum) that *uses no treatments* and *does not feed* in Massachusetts or Connecticut. I'd even buy such honey in 5 gallon pails if it were available.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...a funny note about "local".

Our state has programs to encourage folks to shop at farmers markets (esp. low income folks), so they give out coupons that can be used at the markets. The coupons must be used for "local" produce only.

At our table, we had honey from Arizona, Vermont, and some from our own bees in Portland, Maine. We were told that the coupons could only be used for the Vermont honey, as the definition of "local" was "a state that touches Massachusetts". The bees in Vermont are twice as far from any of these markets than the bees in Maine are, but because there is a sliver of NH in between, the Maine honey does not qualify.

We stopped participating in the program...I told the person administrating things that this was too absurd to bother explaining this to our customers.

deknow


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> The bees in Vermont are twice as far from any of these markets than the bees in Maine are, but because there is a sliver of NH in between, the Maine honey does not qualify.


Surely you could understand the problem that would exist even for a vendor if the rule was written to exclude by distance as the crow flies. Depending on how the program is funded "local" could be by county not by state. That doesn't seem absurd to me.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

deknow said:


> I don't know of any beekeepers selling bulk honey (by the 55 gallon drum) that *uses no treatments* and *does not feed*


I'd sell you some, but I've been buying local honey since I sold all mine.:lpf:

Not the best business practice maybe. Maybe I need to harvest more. All my hives came out of winter with about a deep full of honey.


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