# Preventing Drift



## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

I've just reread Brother Adam and am wondering about the benefits of setting hives in groups like he recommended. His claim was that it helped prevent drift and this was important to him as he pursued TM resistant stock. I also remember Ormond Aebi's claim that he could tie different colored rags to the landing boards of hives and direct bee movement between hives. Would it be beneficial to set up hives in different directions and in odd groupings instead of nice straight lines to help prevent drift. Would it also be helpful to paint hives different pastel colors to help bees find their home and prevent drift?

I understand that drones will still drift. I also understand that commercial beekeepers cannot set up their hives like this. Please don't respond with these answers. Has anyone used techniques like this to help prevent drift and therefore reduced the spread of Varroa, TM, AFB, EFB or CCD?

Besides the pleasing effect of different colored hives in chaotic groups, is there any benefit that anyone has noticed? I think this would mimic the distribution of feral hives in nature. Bees don't set up hives in nice straight lines and don't paint them all the same color.


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## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

I like the looks of different color hives and I also do it to make it easier for the bees to find the right hive and discourage drifting. When I'm painting my boxes, I'll start with one color, say yellow, paint a few boxes, then add a little blue to it, do a few more, add some more blue etc and come out with different shades of yellow and green, or add red to get shades of yellow-orange


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Sure! Research hives often have color patches of 3, 6, and even 9
primary colors, and this has been shown to help the bees find the
right hive. Beekeepers can reduce drifting by using something as
simple as a painted plastic coffee can lid held to the hive with
a thumbtack.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I think its important if you are planning on raising queens. A little drift between production hives for honey is no big deal. But raising queens in hives lined up in a row and painted the same color can cause larger than normal queen loss on mating flights , etc.

Here is a picture of a nuc yard. I position the nucs at different angles and paint the boxes different colors.

http://s186.photobucket.com/albums/x236/BjornBee/?action=view&current=Beepictures046.jpg


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

Does anyone make something pre-painted in colors that Bees can see and recognize.

Surely something could be made inexpensively and printed or painted to last. I just don't have time to make them myself. I'd buy and use them if something were available.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>color patches of 3, 6, and even 9 primary colors . . .

Ah . . . there are only 3 "primary colors"


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## NorthALABeeKeep (Nov 10, 2004)

*really?*



Dave W said:


> >color patches of 3, 6, and even 9 primary colors . . .
> 
> Ah . . . there are only 3 "primary colors"


that not what the voices inside my head are saying. Each voice has their own primary colors


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

From red, yellow and blue ALL other colors can be blended. Thus, they are known as “primary colors”.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

How do you make pink?


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## Tommy (Oct 9, 2005)

I think you just add white to red.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Only three colors? 
Well, perhaps only three _at a time_, sometimes, but we have
many sets which which to choose:


Red, Yellow, Blue (Subtractive)
Magenta, Yellow, Cyan (Additive)
Magenta, Yellow Cyan, Black (Printing)
Black, Blue, Brown, Green, Orange, Red, Violet, Yellow (Crayola)
Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Violet (Color Wheel)
> How do you make pink?

An astute question! One adds white to red to make pink, as
pink is a "tint" of red, just as gray is a "tint" of black.
So, perhaps we need to add "white" to all the lists above.

Anyway, I know that the Dyce Lab at Cornell uses these color
patches with um, ah, "multiple colors" on their hives, and I know
I've seen the same thing lots of other places.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

I think what Jim actually meant was that research hives are "primarily" colored in patches of 3, 6, and even 9 different colors. This means that no, they don't use the same color on all the hives and take advantage of the bees ability to more readily recognize its home from the others by sight. Sight, smell, and location play a part in a bee returning home from foraging though you don't ever hear too much about smell being a factor.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*Entrance disks*



Troy said:


> Does anyone make something pre-painted in colors that
> 
> How about those nuc entrance disks?


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

*Some of the information posted is primarily wrong*

I love it! Internet “discussions” are sometimes funnier than the Bob Hope Show! Somebody posts something that is just plain wrong, has his error pointed out to him, and then will just argue and argue ad nauseum in order to be “right”. 



> 3, 6, and even 9 primary colors





> Ah . . . there are only 3 "primary colors"





> Only three colors?
> Well, perhaps only three at a time, sometimes, but we have
> many sets which which to choose:
> 
> ...



Dr. Fischer, you have it bass ackwards. FWIW, here is the correct information:

for *additive* combination of colors the primary colors normally used are red, green, and blue.

For *subtractive* combination of colors, as in mixing of pigments or dyes, such as in printing, the primaries normally used are magenta, cyan, and yellow



> 4 Black, Blue, Brown, Green, Orange, Red, Violet, Yellow (Crayola)
> 5 Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Violet (Color Wheel)


Nope. Most of those result from a *combination of* the primary colors. 

Here’s some more useless trivia: brown is actually a shade of orange.

“We get brown only when a yellow or orange spot of light is surrounded by light that on the average is brighter. Take any brown and exclude all the surround by looking at it through a tube, a black piece of rolled up paper, and you will see yellow or orange.” 

from: ‘Eye, Brain, and Vision’ David H. Hubel


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

You also asked about hive orientation. It does significantly effect drifting, but there are other factors that may be more important than drifting involved. If you have a lot of hives going to pollination, the labor savings from crowding them on pallats often facing four to six hives in only two directions, outweigh the advantages of reducing drifting. If you have fewer hives in a location where sunlight is spotty, it's best to face all the hives so that they get the earliest morning sun. If human traffic is a concern the hives might go in a row facing into a hedge to force them to fly up higher before they reach the area where they might bother people. I think as noted earlier in this thread, drifting is really only an important concern for queen breeding, and even all the big queen breeders end up pallatizing and orienting their hives more with convienience to the forklift driver than drifting in mind. If you have just a few backyard hives, orientation should revolve around what you find pleasing, your wife will put up with, and what will cause the least friction with neighbors with drifting being the last consideration.


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## mountainvalleybee (May 13, 2007)

*Drifting*

The type bees you use also affects Drifting, For instance the Darker Races of Bees have less of a Drifting problem and a better ability to locate their Hive when it has been moved than do most of the yellow races, Generally Speaking.


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## taipantoo (Nov 9, 2007)

Dave W said:


> >color patches of 3, 6, and even 9 primary colors . . .
> 
> Ah . . . there are only 3 "primary colors"


That sentence could be construed or misconstrued in an entirely different way.
For instance, I drive 9 primary vehicles, a Caravan, a van, a pickup truck, a station wagon, 2 motorcycles, a fork lift, an order picker, and a reach truck.

So, in Dave W's case, 'primary' is not referring to the primary colors, but to the color set that he primarily uses.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Boy was I off. I though someone would mention that pink is just the same color but with an absence of of some level of red. Of course I had focused on Dave's use of the word "blend" which indicates if you have three paint cans, one blue, one yellow, and one red, you can make any other color. But of course without white, that would be false.

But I can clearly see that any self-diagnosis of my own winter fever setting in, has been surpassed by other's more severe cases.

Isn't black the combination or inclusion of all colors? So could you not, with the right technique, abstract any color you want from just having black as your primary color?


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## mountainvalleybee (May 13, 2007)

*Primary Colors*

The Primary Colors are Red, Blue, and Green, at least that was what I was always taught when I worked on T. V. s years ago as a sideline and they were the colors produced from which all other colors were produced on the television sets.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

> Isn't black the combination or inclusion of all colors? So could you not, with the right technique, abstract any color you want from just having black as your primary color?


Black is not a color. Black is the absence of color. White is the combination of all colors. As previously mentioned by a few of us, there are three primary colors. The other colors are abstracted from a combination of the three primary colors. The three primary colors mentioned are for those of humans. For bees the three primary colors are Blue, Yellow, and Ultraviolet (that according to at least Ribbands, Winston, and Goodman).

To further complicate matters, any color can be obtained by mixtures of light of *three* wavelengths in the right proportion, provided the wavelengths were far enough apart.

 btw, didn't you guys learn all that stuff back in the 8th grade???


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>my own winter fever setting in, has been surpassed by other's more severe cases . . .
  

>didn't you guys learn all that stuff back in the 8th grade . . .
Sometimes . . . the smarter you get, the less you know


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Dick Allen said:


> Black is not a color. Black is the absence of color. White is the combination of all colors. As previously mentioned by a few of us, there are three primary colors. The other colors are abstracted from a combination of the three primary colors. The three primary colors mentioned are for those of humans. For bees the three primary colors are Blue, Yellow, and Ultraviolet (that according to at least Ribbands, Winston, and Goodman).
> 
> To further complicate matters, any color can be obtained by mixtures of light of *three* wavelengths in the right proportion, provided the wavelengths were far enough apart.
> 
> btw, didn't you guys learn all that stuff back in the 8th grade???


Sorry Dick, I was backwards. Black white, whatever. I knew one had none, and one had everything. Did you at least understand what I was asking? Why not just have white as a primary color, and find some way to abstract the color you need? 

Never confused. In fact, ignorance is bliss! Didn't you learn that in school...


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>backwards. Black white, whatever . . .

Are we NOW back to talking bees?????


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Dave W said:


> >backwards. Black white, whatever . . .
> 
> Are we NOW back to talking bees?????


Oh yeah, right. Bees....hmmmm. Subject "preventing drifting". Hmmmmm. Well, how about a snow fence or some bales of hay. That would work.. 

Which begs to question. Snow is white, right? Does that mean it has all the colors? And should we really be just concerned with yellow snow. If white is all colors, what about brown snow? Hmmmm. Is white snow just a disguise for something more sinister? Perhaps CCD related?


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## yoyo (Jun 13, 2007)

Dick Allen said:


> Here’s some more useless trivia: brown is actually a shade of orange.
> 
> “We get brown only when a yellow or orange spot of light is surrounded by light that on the average is brighter. Take any brown and exclude all the surround by looking at it through a tube, a black piece of rolled up paper, and you will see yellow or orange.”
> 
> from: ‘Eye, Brain, and Vision’ David H. Hubel




How can you see anything if there is no light? 
Something to reflect on.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Edison experimented with light by putting various colored patches of cloth on the snow and measuring how deeply each melted into the snow at the end of the day. I think I learned that in school. I fixed TVs too and they did manage to get what they needed out of red, blue and green. I built 30 frames today and the fever never moved. Nice to see Jim get caught out. You rattle his cage at your peril.

dickm


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## mountainvalleybee (May 13, 2007)

*Primary Colors*

The Primary Colors Red,Blue,Green are what was used in the old style Television however Accepted Primary Colors are Red,Blue, and Yellow, it is obvious that depending on what the intended use, to some dregree, the usage determines what the Primary Colors are.


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

odfrank, Let the rest of them argue about the colors, what I want to know is where to get those entrance disks in all of the different colors.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*BetterBee is one place-see link*

http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=305


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*I don't worry about no stinkin drift*

I got 2600 lbs of honey from this site and most of it was from two rows of eight hives spaced 1/2" apart on a 12'X8" truck bed. The only color co-ordination is the colors of the supers you see. The bees don't care about no stinkin drift....


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I don't worry about no stinkin drift

Me neither.

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Stand1.jpg


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I do. Of course, I raise queens..


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Here's something for you guys who slept through the 8th grade. 

http://homepage.mac.com/dtrapp/physics.f/ColorVision.html


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## Gale Farquhar (Apr 24, 2007)

I paint each of my hives a different color and group them in clusters, with each hive being about six (6) feet from the nearest neighboring hive. Using different colors and no straight lines is an integral part of my five percent (5%) philosophy about beekeeping: That is to say, I think it’s the little things that make a difference and those little things approximate about 5% of my total beekeeping practices. Painting and clustering seems to reduce stress, and reducing stress seems to result in healthier, happier bees. Some things just seem to be better for the bees: top entrances, open double screened bottom boards, Imirie shims, all wax 4.9 foundation, good ventilation within the top of the hive, morning sun, afternoon shade, natural windbreaks from the north winds, checkerboarding, barbed wire to keep cows out of the apiaries, and no chemicals whatsoever.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Gale, Hey I know you.  I didn't know you hung out here.  Did you move?


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

*Thanks for feedback*

Thanks Gale for your feedback. I'm feeling that grouping the hives rather than lining them up will reduce drift. Painting hives with different colors will help reduce drift. If I reduce drift then it only stands to reason that I'm reducing chances of the bees spreading pests/illness throughout the apiary. I understand that there are probably other vectors for spreading disease and pests but I think we need to reduce the risks to the best of our ability.

I like your 5% philosophy. That goes along with my current outlook on the world and food, including honey. I pasture all of my own chicken and beef, the two primary meats in my household. We raise as much of our own fruits and vegtables as possible. All of this without chemical fertilizers, chemical pesticides and processed feeds. I try to use only open pollinated seeds and definitely no genetically modified seeds. We use no vaccinations on any of our livestock and very few medications. We strive to keep our livestock healthy to prevent disease. I think this same philosophy can apply to bees.

As for primary colors, my days as an art student taught me that the primary colors are red, blue and yellow. From these all other colors can be made. The addition of black and white opaque pigments can lighten or darken those colors. We'd be using these colors paintng our hives. Printing spectrum are just variations of red, yellow and blue. Magenta is a shade of red. Cyan is a shade of blue. 

My training in electronics, particularly CRTs, taught me that in the light spectrum there are also three primary colors. They are red, blue and green. In light spectrum, the absence of those colors gives black. The presence of all three at maximum intensity shows white. Unless someone is lighting their hives to change their colors the light spectrum will not apply. Besides the bees will not care. They're bed for the night!


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Red yellow and blue when reflecting the light. Red green and blue when filtering the light. White is the absence of color. Black is the absence of light, as in all filtered out.

My bees are so smart they know the alphabet. Actually I changed it and labelled each hive with a Greek letter. Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, etc. Improved production due to less drifting? Who knows. I can't even tell if it reduced drifting. Sometimes you just gotta believe. Beekeeping with faith.

Hawk


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

*Colors*

I stole some pieces of stained glass from my wife's shop and use them on our hives for identification. I cannot tell if it keeps the girls from drifting but it sure helps with communications with my mentor or my helpful neighbor if I am away from home. The glass pieces also do not fade. See Photobucket.com photo 0034 enter the word Habedere. Happy holidays to all


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## mountainvalleybee (May 13, 2007)

I realise most of the discussion has been about colors, however good bees are also good about mapping locations according to appearance, and then again they probably can tell the difference due to Pheromones.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

There also seems to be a genetic component to drifting. The Italians and Carniolans that I've had seem to drift more than other bees. Lines of hives also seem worse than randomly placed hives (I still use lines though).


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