# Help with Foundationless Frames



## digdan (May 8, 2009)

I think my next years growth I will attempt to use foundationless frames after reading : 
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

I was wondering if anyone had some helpful tips on what sort of guide, or clue I should use so the bees draw comb correctly?

Thanks


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## mariongoose (Oct 3, 2008)

Hmmm, millions of years, vs how long have you been a beekeeper? I'd say the bees have figured out a thing or two . Keep your hive horizontal and let em at it. You'll get the strongest hive if you let them do what they've been doing since, probably before we were ever on this earth. Good luck.


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## frostygoat (Jun 3, 2008)

I'm not that experienced as other posters here, but try 1-2" strips of foundation in frame tops. Wedge them in or melt wax into the slot to hold them fast. This has worked very well for me in my hives. The bees filled a few frames that didn't have any starter cues at all and they did it right down the middle. Just trust them.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I wouldn't use foundation at all, just a strip of wood. A couple of popcicle sticks work well, or break out the wedge and turn it sideways. Another poster just breaks out the wedge and tosses it. The bees use the remaining step as a guide. I cut my top bars on a 45 degree angle to create a triangle shape and the bees build on the point. Almost anything works, but having them attach directly to wood in best in my opinion.
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/sled5.jpg


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## digdan (May 8, 2009)

Could you elaborate Ross? I'm not quite getting it. My frames come with just a groove on the top and bottom for the foundation to sit in. How do I turn that grove into a wedge?


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

If they aren't wedge top frames, just glue in a strip of wood or a couple of popcicle strips. you can see the wedge in the first frame in the picture I posted.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

If there is a Michael's Arts and Craft or similar store in your area they sell a Jumbo Craft stick (its like an oversized popsicle stick) that works great. You can get a box of 300 for a few bucks.

Glenn


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Assuming you are starting from scratch, with new frames, I'd order the wedge top and break out the wedge and turn it 90 degrees. Assuming you have frames already and they are grooved top, then I'd put in the craft sticks or a half of a paint stick. If you are building your frames from scratch I'd put the wedge on the top bar. I like the wedge the best as far as reliably being accepted as the guide and as far as strength. But they all work fine.


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## peletier (May 5, 2007)

I could use some help in this area too. The bees are not attaching the combs to the bottom bar. Sure makes them hard to handle. Any tricks for this situation?


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## Show-me (Aug 3, 2007)

I went foundationless this spring on deeps. The key is having the hive level from left to right. Front to rear does not matter that much and you should have it tip forward a little so the water runs out.

I checked mine today and they are attaching them well but I found that my hive stand, which holds 5 ten frame hive sagged a little in the middle because I got cheap and did not put blocks under the middle legs. So it sunk into the dirt a little causing my comb to be slightly off center on the far left and far right hives. No big deal just cut the bottom free and push it over.

I also am using Nucs I made from ten frame deeps as supers. Much lighter!


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## Show-me (Aug 3, 2007)

If they have it attached to the sides I don't worry, but I still handle them more like a top bar hive frame just to be safe.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_I could use some help in this area too. The bees are not attaching the combs to the bottom bar. Sure makes them hard to handle. Any tricks for this situation? _

It sticks in my head that when you build your frames, don't push the bottom bar in all the way. Once the bees draw the comb and have a gap at the bottom, you can push the bottom bar the rest of the way in place, and the bees will attach the comb to the bottom bar then. I have not tried this - I think Michael Bush said C.C. Miller(?) gave this solution.

I think a strip of foundation (or paint stick) in the bottom groove of the bottom bar would act like a finishing strip. (as opposed to a starter strip) I've never tried this either, simply because it doesn't bother me if the bees want to leave a gap at the bottom of the comb. I have old combs that were drawn on wired foundation, and the bees ate the wax out at the bottom of the comb.

As long as the comb is attached to the sides, they aren't tricky to handle. Even when it is a free hanging comb, you get used to how to handle it carefully.


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## Big John (Feb 4, 2009)

If you cross wire your frames before you install them in the hive it will make handling them a lot more secure, the last 100 frames I used was foundationless and all was cross wired worked out real good.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

peletier said:


> I could use some help in this area too. The bees are not attaching the combs to the bottom bar. Sure makes them hard to handle. Any tricks for this situation?


 Yes put medium frames in to deep boxs after the bees put the wax in cut the wax off the bottom bars put in solar wax melter how put medium frames in a medium boxs HINT; :doh: the drone comb is under the bottom bars most of the time hope this help you 


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Show-me (Aug 3, 2007)

Use heavy fishing string for brood frames. Easy and cheap to work with.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I could be wrong, but I think it was Jay Smith who had the idea of leaving the bottom bars lower and then pushing them up after the comb is drawn. It works quite well if it matters to you. It does not matter to me. I just pay attention and don't turn a comb sideways until it's attached some on the sides. I cut the soft comb for comb honey.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I'm going to put 4-5 one inch brads across the bottom bar next time I build frames. The brads sticking up from the bottom bar might give them something to attach to, and it's easier than wiring. I'm basically lazy, so easy is good in my world. That's why I started doing foundationless.


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## tbb39 (Jun 9, 2007)

just like show-me said on both post.. works good


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## DebCP (Apr 4, 2009)

If I want to switch to foundationless,but have two hives full of foundation, how do I go about switching them over? The whole process baffles me.

Deb


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

You have 2 hives full of foundation, or full of drawn comb?

If you have a frame with foundation already in it, take a sharp knife and cut out the foundation except for a one inch strip of foundation left at the top of the frame. You now have a foundationless frame with a starter strip. (Popsicle or paint sticks make a good starter strip too, if you don't want to use a strip of wax foundation.)

If you have a frame of drawn comb, take your knife and cut out the comb, leaving a strip 2 or 3 cells wide of old comb at the top of the frame. (Or leave a few cells all the way around the frame - just cut the center out.) The bees will use the old comb as a new guide.

Those are easy way to turn regular frames into foundationless without having to turn the wedge 90 degrees or nail a triangle piece to your topbar or use popsicle sticks.


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## DebCP (Apr 4, 2009)

I have two hives full of drawn comb full of brood and honey.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Do you checkerboard? That is a great time to pull a frame of drawn comb, and replace it with a foundationless frame.

After you extract your honey, cut out old comb except for the strip of comb at the top of the frame. Use this frame to checkerboard with next spring.

If you have a strong hive and a flow going on, remove an outside frame of honey from the brood box, and insert a foundationless frame into the cluster. In a couple weeks, repeat that and add another foundationless frame or two. Keep repeating until you are all foundationless. (it may take a couple years.) Anytime you get a brood frame with more than 10% drone comb, move that frame to your honey supers.


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## DebCP (Apr 4, 2009)

What I understood from your post makes sense to me. I don't really understand about checkerboarding though. Could you explain that?

Taking a frame of capped honey, extracting it and replacing it with a foundationless frame closer to the center of the brood chamber makes sense. I believe the bees will start clearing the brood out of the new outer frames and start putting honey in there...right?

The frames with more than 10% drone brood...I use shallows for supers and deeps for my hive body, so I don't understand how I would move a deep frame with drones to my supers...sorry I'm so clueless.

Also, once the bees start drawing out their own foundation, will they naturally begin to revert to smaller cell size?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Taking a frame of capped honey, extracting it and replacing it with a foundationless frame closer to the center of the brood chamber makes sense. I believe the bees will start clearing the brood out of the new outer frames and start putting honey in there...right?

Probably.

>The frames with more than 10% drone brood...I use shallows for supers and deeps for my hive body, so I don't understand how I would move a deep frame with drones to my supers...sorry I'm so clueless.

You wouldn't. But then that's why I would use all the same size boxes. The reason those would be mediums or, better yet, eight frame mediums is I need to be able to lift them.

>Also, once the bees start drawing out their own foundation, will they naturally begin to revert to smaller cell size? 

Yes.


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## DebCP (Apr 4, 2009)

Thanks Michael


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_The frames with more than 10% drone brood...I use shallows for supers and deeps for my hive body, so I don't understand how I would move a deep frame with drones to my supers...sorry I'm so clueless._

The very outside frames (1 and 10) in your brood box are used for honey storage. If you have a lot of drone cells on a deep frame, you can move that frame all the way to the edge of the box.

You can also take a sharp knife and cut the drone brood out of the frame, and then place that frame back in the center of the broodnest and see if they draw worker cells to replace the drone cells.


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## DebCP (Apr 4, 2009)

Ok, that makes sense. Thank you.


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## DebCP (Apr 4, 2009)

One more question...before my husband gets home and kills me:scratch:

I tried gluing in those jumbo craft sticks as suggested, but I'm not used to using wood glue (that is what I'm supposed to be using right?). Here's my question...how much glue am I supposed to use. The slot is wide enough for two craft sticks placed together, but I have tried this using just one stick so far. Since I didn't want the sticks (three seem to fill the span of the top) to fall out I used quite a bit of glue...was this a bad thing to do. The glue has now dripped all over the frames and the kitchen table and I've only gotten two frames done so far. 

If the sticks are pretty much covered in glue will the bees still use it & is it safe?

Any SIMPLE directions as to how to glue these things without coating everything in my kitchen would be wonderful. Also, do I need to fill the whole span of the frame or just most of it?

Deb


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## SlickMick (Feb 28, 2009)

Deb, whilst I cant help you with the gluey bit I will be on the lookout for a news article on murder in the apiary. Would make headlines over here I reckon. Just make sure you get the dinner started

Mick


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## DebCP (Apr 4, 2009)

SlickMick said:


> Deb, whilst I cant help you with the gluey bit I will be on the lookout for a news article on murder in the apiary. Would make headlines over here I reckon. Just make sure you get the dinner started
> 
> Mick


Yes, dinner is definitely getting started...esp since I used half my hubby's wood glue, yikes.

Deb


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

You don't need a lot of wood glue. I would turn the frame upside down so it is standing with the bottom bar up. Put a dab of glue in the groove in the top bar, and then press the stick into position.

You will want sticks all the way across the top bar.

I doubt the glue will cause any serious issues, but I would still try to use as little as possible. A little bit goes a long way. A couple drops of glue will hold the craft stick well after the glue has dried.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

A little bit of wax in the grove will hold it in also if you are concerned about the glue.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

If you are using medium frames I have found that putting the craft stick in vertically also works ok. You can either trim it to fit or just "jam" it in at an angle trying to not leave a bend in it.


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## DebCP (Apr 4, 2009)

Thanks guys...I now know that I need to put the sticks all the way across (I was doing that anyways). Next time I'll try less glue, hopefullly turning the frame upside down will help. I had thought about using melted wax, but I can just imagine how much more of a mess I'd make trying that. Think I'll stick to the popsicle sticks for now. In the future though, when it's time for more frames I'll just order the wedge bars so I don't have to deal with this. I'm excited to see how my bees do with the foundationless, I just put some of the frames in the hive today.


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