# Cargill Discontinuing Frankenhoney????



## John Russell (Aug 8, 2003)

In my local Associations newsletter, it stated that Cargill was discontnuing the sales of its 
honey replacement sweetner. ( likewise (tm) )
The decision was helped by Mann Lake, who has a partnership with Cargill to provide HFCS and sucrose products to beekeepers. 

Mann Lake seems to have taken offence to the product, and stated by letter that " Feelings of goodwill towards Cargill have changed to an adversarial attitude " as they market immitation honey as an " affordable honey product ".

Now, I have NOT been able to verify this myself, but if it's true then Score One For Us.

Wether it was pressure from it's clients, or poor market response, we shall never really know, but I'ts nice to see the giants stumble eh?


John Russell


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

I'm certainly not in favor of "honey substitutes" for human consumption, but I wonder why it's "nice to see the giants stumble".

BubbaBob


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## John Russell (Aug 8, 2003)

Let me make a point on that. 
Lets say that cargill markets and develops a honey substitute so well, that it becomes as universaly accepted as margerine. 
Lets hypothisize one step further. This substitute becomes popular enough to start replacing honey in commercial bakerys, fast food condiment paks, cereal manufacturing plants and other food and beverage production centers.
The demand for honey drops, developing a glut on the commodity market and the price of honey drops to 0.35 cents per pound. 

Nothing like working for free. The last thing this world needs is another sweetner. Especialy when the only drive to produce and develop it is to inflate profit margins of large corperations and their stockholders portfolios.
( O.k. ..... done my rant...)

Thus: stumbling giant =









J.R.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> but I'ts nice to see the giants stumble eh?


Careful now. For those of us who've seen a giant stumble, it's not as satisfying as one might think. They tend to wreak havoc on everything around them while stumbling about. In fact, it can be more destructive to innocent bystanders than to the giant himself.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

As a Brit who is anti-GM, I would love to see giants like Cargill (and especially their parent company, Monsanto) stumble a LOT harder than this. They are far and away the biggest seed merchant in the world and wield far too much power over the world's food chain. Introducing fake honey is just their way of saying "we do what we like and we don't give a **** what anyone else thinks".

Monsanto have already left the UK with their tails between their legs. I hope they and their lousy GM products roast slowly in hell.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

One can go on and on about Cargill. Living in North Dakota I see first hand as they swallow the "small" guys.

That said......... Someone will produce fake honey. Just as sure as margerine entered the butter market. Look for slogans like "I can't believe it's not Honey!!"

It is up to us to market our product as better than flavorer corn syrup.

Honey prices will tank without a doubt as China enters the market again big time.

The big companies want it cheap and care not about small beekeepers. Industrial beekeeping is already sprouting like industrial farmers did with grain. 

You will need 10,000 hives or more to make it work. The average grain farmer around here needs at least 5,000 acres in tillage, most have significantly more. The farm I live on now used to give up a living on 360 acres..........


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## hobbyfarm (Feb 18, 2005)

Buckbee

Amen.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<I would love to see giants like Cargill and especially their parent company, Monsanto stumble a LOT harder than this. >>

Followed shortly by worldwide famines. I'm no fan of the current state of farming, but it got this way for a reason.

Lots of hungry people.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> They are far and away the biggest seed merchant in the world and wield far too much power over the world's food chain.





> Industrial beekeeping is already sprouting like industrial farmers.


You both bring up some interesting points.
This is an issue worthy of discussion, perhaps not in this particular forum, but certainly somewhere as it impacts each of us not only as beekeepers but as consumers and citizens. 
The subject typically is defined by the label "food security" or "community food security" for those wishing to search the net for references and lenghthy discussions.
Various groups exist with different focal points that range from rabid anticapitalists whose only concern is bashing the multinationals to those whose interest is in actually providing a structure to better support local producers. One of my favorites is a group whose sole function is lobbying to get governments grants that are used exclusively to lobby to get government grants. 
Nonetheless, the origin of your family's food, it's purity, how "fairly" it is produced, and whether or not it will be available tomorrow should be something we all understand. Not to mention whether or not your neighbor has something to eat tonight. My interest in the subject was kindled years ago and developed into a volunteer position as a hunger action advocate within my denomination. It's certainly been enlightening, and I encourage every one of you to find out more about your food, who controls it, and how you can help yourselves and your community to become a bit more secure in it.


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

I notice that everyone on this forum thinks that China is going to send us lots and lots and lots of honey and completely flood the U.S. market. This might make sense in the extreme short term, but in the long term it doesn't make economical sense if you really pay attention.

China has been buying about 8-10% of the U.S. debt over the past few years, and lord knows we've racked up a lot. They now own billions of dollars of our debt, which can be treated as an asset. As more and more of our dollars flood the Chinese market, the dollar is worth less and less to them. For this reason, we will soon (how soon is a speculative question) be at the point where China won't want do business with us AT ALL in exchange for american dollars, because american dollars won't be worth anything to them.

I know a lot of people won't understand this or won't agree with me, and that's ok. There wouldn't be financial hard times and depressions if people saw them coming. The value of the dollar is currently and will continue to decline against foreign currencies, save a miracle.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> The value of the dollar is currently and will continue to decline against foreign currencies, save a miracle.


The Chinese Yuan is pegged by their government to the $US. It moves with the dollar, unlike other world currencies which are allowed to float.


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

BUY AMRERICAN FROM AMERICANS


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

If you haven't read "Small Is Beautiful : Economics as if People Mattered" by E.F. Schumacher, I encourage you to. If you have read it (decades ago), pick it up again for a re-read.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

My point was not concerning Cargill in particular, but the whole "nice to see giants stumble" thing.

Let's let GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc stumble...giants all. Go ahead and haul your honey to market on a donkeys back.

International Plastics...another giant...when it (or other companies like it) stumble you'll have trouble packaging your honey...or Anchor Hocking, etc. if you insist on glass.

If you try to get around in the vehicle you have now, before the auto giants stumble, then you will be screwed when other giants stumble...Exxon, Texaco, British Petroleum, et al. Your car just became a huge paperweight.

The bashing of big corporations, the rich, etc has gotten real old...go ahead and try to get by without them...and as for the rich bashing, when money gets tight, go ask a poor person living in the projects for a job.

Rant mode off.

BubbaBob


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Fewer and fewer american jobs are being created by industrial corperations. "Out sourcing" has cost massive job losses in automotive, steel mills, etc. 

Now when you call Dell or Gateway help desks the phone is ringing in India!! I called my Visa card last week and after detecting an accent I asked where this call was from....... Again India.

Mega Corperations are not America. Small business's are. Small business built this country with the family farmers. I include the extinct old school company's of Ford, GM, AMC, etc. in the small business catagory. Now they are multinational corperations.

The bashing is well earned.

Ditto on the Rant mode off......


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Could I be reading comments from people who never shop at Wal-mart. People who never bought gas from a chain, and instead let the small operator pump it while paying a little more. No way! No hypocrites on this site.









Maybe just people who look at big problems with very narrow sight, and use one phrase catch all comments that make themselves feel good.

Going back to ford (and his control of the car industry, and evolving into monsanto of today, there has always been big business. And the one country that has done great as a country was the US, the same U.S. that has been great at building these type businesses. I always think its people of some unfortunate lsser means who always bash big business. As, if they(big business) went away, all the problems would be solved.

Meanwhile, what a day on the market...GO BIG BUSINESS. I know my portfolio is bigger today thank to big business. And my small business did great today also. Ah, its nice to be positive and keep it in perspective. Go bubbabob, your right on.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Mann Lake taking credit for "stopping" Cargill
is more than a little bit like me taking credit
for the Sun rising tomorrow, just because I've
done some work in astrophysics.









While I am sure that Mann Lake was one of many
angry voices, Cargill is simply not run by
people who would "cave in" for anything less than
a very poor set of numbers in a spreadsheet.

Think about it. In 2004 the USA alone made
8,974,000 tons (17,948,000,000 pounds) of HFCS.
http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/Sugar/Data/data.htm

If sales of HFCS to beekeepers even appeared as
a footnote in the financials versus the massive
use in packaged food and soft drinks, I'd be
very surprised.

So, the obvious conclusion is that the product
flopped, nothing more or less.

I don't have any hard feelings for Cargill, ADM,
or any of the rest, but I do worry that we are
slowly approaching "Soylent Green" style food,
where the food is made from Lord only knows
what, and actual cooking "from scratch" is
becoming as obscure as beekeeping.

But these guys are all about money, never
forget it - even criminal charges (price fixing
in citric and lysine) don't slow these
multinational robber-barons down:
http://www.foodroutes.org/fwissue.jsp?item=101
(ADM paid $100 mil, and Cargill paid $24 mil
to settle an HFCS price-fixing lawsuit,
but neither one "admitted any wrongdoing")


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Look around Big Business is just survival of the fittest on a different level. They to will eventually see thier day come to an end as some new technology does it bigger, better, cheaper or faster. Thats just the way it is.......But what Monsanto is doing to the environment should be a crime......wait it is......they just have enough money to buy thier way out...wait did someone say politics....OH wrong forum!!!!!!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>ets hypothisize one step further. This substitute becomes popular enough to start replacing honey in commercial bakerys

Yes, but will they be allowed to call, or imply the notion of "honey" in its lableing? I hope we can change that. Then it will be just the same as corn surip. We have to change the way they label honey products and or substitutes

>>nice to see giants stumble

then we all starve

hard to stop a train on a dime, isnt it,...
Todays consumers are to stupid to figure out where to get the food if the companies dont supply it for them. I wouldnt blame the companies, blame the ignorant public,...


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

bruce, let's take a look at the problem of outsourcing jobs to other countries...

We'll pass a law that American companies must keep their jobs on American soil, bringing thousands of jobs to our country. Fine...number of jobs goes up.

But wait...if we bring all US company jobs home, then, in all fairness, we send all jobs in the US from foreign companies back to their home as well. Braselton, GA loses a Hitachi plant to Japan. South Carolina loses it's BMW plant, and the jobs, to Germany. Alabama sends Mercedes packing back to Germany. Twenty assorted Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc., car assembly plants and their jobs go back to Japan.

Even companies you think are American go away. My wife works for Fireman's Fund Ins Co., an American company, right? Nope...that cute little fireman's hat is owned by Allianz, a German company.

Bottom line, according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, the US imports 22% more jobs than it exports, so if we bring our jobs home, and send foreign companies' jobs back to their home, the US expiriences a substantial net loss of jobs.

Also, while there are exceptions, let's look at what kind of jobs we would be swapping.

We bring back a minimum wage sewing operator making Cannon towels, and send back an auto assembly job to Germany (BMW/South Carolina, Mercedes/Alabama)paying upwards of $40/hr when counting benefits.

We bring back a $10/hr max telemarketing job from India, and send my wife's $60K annual underwriting job back to Germany as well.

Yep...bringing back our jobs is a great thing. Be careful what you ask for...you might get it.

Anyone wanna argue for higher corporate taxes to punish those nasty giants? I've got your answer on that one too.

BubbaBob


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

I just bought a Pontiac

But it was made by Toyota

In California

Welcome to the 21st century, buckle your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy ride.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

http://www.mannlakeltd.net/news/cargill.pdf

http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=876&nID=462


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Who makes the crap KFC hands out. It's called "Honey Spread". Honey is like the 3rd or 4th ingredient.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Hey BubbaBob, I'm with you on this one!


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

I have had economics and understand fully how business works. I like many other have stated like big business. I am for the goverment standing up to some of these giants and making them clean up their own messes. I also see some companies taking the blame because the public got involved like the firestone/ford lawsuit. Ford asked for a cheaper tire and Firestone delivered. So who took the blunt of the blame on using these cheaper tires on heavy SUVs, the tire company not the auto maker. 

I am for a stricter view on labeling foods. The pancake syrup at McDonald's is corn syrup. The package says Maple pancake syrup. The only maple is flavoring added. So IMO it should only be aloud to be labeled pancake syrup with maple flavoring and not call maple pancake syrup. The law lets them get away with this because they do not call it maple syrup. Why does putting the word pancake in the middle change the meaning so much? If it was a blend of maple syrup and corn syrup I would not be so affended.

Ok this is a bit off topic of the big business stuff and on topic about artificial honey. I was feeding my bees heavy trying to get the bees to drawn comb and build up for more splits last year. I use home made foundationless frames with a pointed top bar. I broke an full frame of "honey" comb as it was a full frame but not attached to the sides and bottom yet. I am sure it had some honey in it but the majority of it was store sugar syrup. I have to say I could see a product made this way sell. It was a very mild honey flavor. It was all processed by the bees and stored as honey. So what would you be able to call this product if one chose to let the bees make it?

How much sugar/corn syrup "honey" gets mixed in our honey supply?

What made me thing of that is the sugar honey my hives have over wintered on. If I was not making splits and using what is left capped to feed the splits in a couple weeks, the bees would relocate this honey as the brood nest expands and some would get stored in the supers. I am sure alot of it would also be used as the nest expands but not all of it.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

No takers on the corporate tax deal....hmmmmm....I'll just talk (type) to myself...

We constantly hear whiners complain that big, nasty corporations need to pay "their fair share", whatever that is, and that they need to be taxed more.

First question...who out there thinks corporations need to be taxed heavier?

Second question...who out there thinks corporations pay ANY taxes at all?

Anyone that raised their hand to either question pay real close attention here...CORPORATIONS PAY NO TAXES...NONE...NADA...ZIP. Never have, never will.

The only entity that pays taxes is the individual. You. Personally. You pay all...ALL...taxes.

You think not? How about this...

Widget Corp makes...you guessed it...widgets. All costs associated with making widgets, facilities, raw materials, labor, packaging, distribution, marketing, health care for employees, all costs add up to a unit cost of 90 cents. Widget Corp wishes to make 10 cents per unit on their widgets. How much do they sell widgets for? A dollar? Nope. They know that at the end of the year they are going to have to write a check to the feds for x dollars, and x equals 25 cents per widget. You will have to pay Widget Corp $1.25 for a widget. YOU pay the taxes...Widget Corp just collects it from you for the government, just like the corner widget store collects the sales tax on the sale from you and passes it along to the state.

Keep crying that Widget Corp pays too little taxes and needs to have their tax rate raised and you will be the one that pays the taxes because Widget Corp is going to make their dime.

BubbaBob

Support HR25...the Fair Tax Act...national retail sales tax.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

Bubba that is my feelings. Another point you did not make was these corparations are owned by the public that own stock in the company. So these people are taxed on their income before they even get it as you mentioned and then they are taxed on their dividends and gains when they sell their stock. So they are double taxed. And yes corperations do pass the paid taxes onto the consumer. I am for lower taxes on corparations and replacing this loss of income to the state with higher income taxes on the people as these can be give deductions against to those that have them. I am also agaisnt people getting more back on their income tax returns than they pay in to the goverment. I have for the past 3 years gotten back more than we paid in to the IRS because of the earned income credits. I am tired of the non working project living people I had as neighbor getting large income tax returns even if they do not work. I can say I got there by being injured as I worked 2 jobs before I got hurt and 3 jobs at sometimes. My wife was in school and now has a job so we will see how next year goes.


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## tryp (Nov 28, 2004)

BubbaBob you are quite enamored with the "pillars of society" is it that you aspire to be in a position where you live off others labour. Or are you right now?

Huge corporations do nothing to benefit you or I or anyone but the people that control them. There is nothing a large company can do that can't be done by smaller local companies. 

Hey imagine there were no cars or gas to run them, most of the beekeepers here would experience a huge increase in the sales and value of their commodity. Imagine if everyone in your community couldn't get their honey at the grocery store, or sugar for that matter because it is mostly trucked in like our current situation. People would have to buy honey locally!! What the heck is wrong with taking your honey to market on a donkey anyways? Petroleum isn't going to last forever!

And seriously do you think if we sent all foreign companies home that we would lose jobs? Say send home the German insurance company that your wife works for, THEN SHE COULD WORK FOR AN AMERICAN COMPANY DOING THE SAME JOB. The work is HERE the job is HERE, the customers are HERE, why is it that some fatass investor that was born into the right family gets to sit on his lazy ass back in Germany enjoying the profits of her work? At least it should be an american that benefits from american labor. As for the textiles and manufacturing jobs that have left North America for China well WE want them back. These are jobs that paid well considering the alternatives. Unfortunately, businessmen feel that paying someone in china a dollar a day is better than supporting the local economy because it means they can pay themselves a disgusting salary. 
So what if goods cost more, a strong economy means more money for you to buy them, and the quality is going to be much better. 

Unfortunately people just love being able to buy cheap crap at places like Walmart thus supporting the degradation of their own way of life.

Don't even get me started on the "what do you mean we can't patent living things and enslave the world" arseholes like Monsanto.

Rant mode off.


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## GreenMountainRose (Sep 6, 2004)

Gentlemen,

I will tread softly into this hornets' nest by stating that, while I do not disagree with the statements being made here, the attitudes which are expressed here could be looked upon with a broader perspective:

All of thes big corporations, the stock markets, the tax system, the people who run the companies... all are part of a larger system that most of us are part of.

And there are so many others in the world who also think that it's "nice to see the giants stumble." 

I'll leave it at that.

(Please don't sting.)


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## wjw777 (Mar 24, 2002)

Hey Guys,
Your all right on this subject,pro and con. but it really ticks me off when i go to a supermart and find honey mixed with honey from 3 or four different countries. Go to Wal-Mart and try to find something made in the good Ole USA. They tell everyone they create jobs. Bull !! Super Walmart comes in and in less than a year businesses fall like diminoes . How many jobs lost, hundreds , yes they create some jobs at a much lower payrate. China's main export anywhere is, you got it, WALMART. Anyone who shops there and loses their job because of these good ole boyz in Alabama need thier heads examining. and you know who is the blame " WE ARE" to save a few pennies we go there and help put another nail in the US manufacturing coffin. I will not buy at Wal Mart and i only buy things made in USA , its hard at times but try it when all said and done you'll feel good . The Communist said that the USA will crumble from within , is it happening . Take a look around Walt


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<Hey imagine there were no cars or gas to run them, most of the beekeepers here would experience a huge increase in the sales and value of their commodity.>>

I like my honey. So do the people who buy it. But I have a pretty clear idea of just how far most of them would be willing to walk to get some.

<<At least it should be an american that benefits from american labor.>>

Spoken like a true American! When did we annex B.C. anyway?


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<it really ticks me off when i go to a supermart and find honey mixed with honey from 3 or four different countries.>>

And maybe as China cuts out more middle men in its insatiable quest for foreign currency, we'll see our government listen to people who want country-of-origin labeling on food.

The public wants it. The food industry(honey packers included) didn't, because they were benefiting from the cheap foreign product packaged as "local". Then China got a bottling line


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

wjw, that's the nice part of a capitalistic marketplace...if I want to use the convenience of Wally World, it's my money and I have the right to spend it how and where I want, and so do you...you know...FREE markets.

dcross, I was so irritated reading tryp's post I didn't notice his Canuk location. Good point about the annexation.

Most of tryp's post is tripe and not worth responding to, but the part about my aspirations to being a mogul of some sort living off other's labor is laughable. tryp (or tripe), I actually have gone the other way, leaving the suit and tie world with a substantial 6 figure income to being, albiet a bit later than normal in life, an old hippie, but a smart one. Sometimes I wish the eco-dummies, corporate bashers, PETA types, etc. would get what they want for about a while. When your lights go out and you can't pull up to the pump to fill up...when you have to raise your own food rather than plucking it from your supermarkets shelves...when you go barefoot unless you harvest an animal for it's leather...when you watch your child die young because drug companies quit research when profits went away...when all that, and more happens, survival of the fittest will weed out the idiots to a great extent, and the rest will come crawling on their knees begging for big corporations to return so they can suckle at the corporate teat as they do now without realizing it.

Ah well...I can dream...

BubbaBob


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## wjw777 (Mar 24, 2002)

hey bubbaBob
Your partcially right when one company uses their wealth to kick out their competitors closing them down and than raising prices higher because they are the only kid on the block well that is what i call bullying. you do have the right to spend your money where you want bubba, Ive seen guys like wal mart dictate push smaller companies around and send billions of dollars overseas, who pay 50 cents an hour and countries that we call enemies or hostile to our country for the almighty buck well as you know Money talks **** walks


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

> CORPORATIONS PAY NO TAXES...NONE...NADA...ZIP. Never have, never will.


Speaking as a liberal CPA, I know for a fact that corporations pay taxes and lots of taxes. I dont think the wealthy pay as much as they should.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> Speaking as a liberal CPA, I know for a fact that corporations pay taxes and lots of taxes. I don’t think the wealthy pay as much as they should.


A beancounter. I knew it! 
As an aside to any aspiring accounting types, here's some advice. I got a degree in accounting years ago and immediately went to work in the private sector. I sat for the first half of the CPA exam, passed it, and never had(took) the time due to work and family to take the remaining parts. My other excuse was that I was making more than most CPAs in public practice. Can't really say how much it cost me, but if you're in the same position, FINISH THE EXAM and work the year or two of slave labor required to get certified. For those planning a career in any type of business setting, take as much formal accounting and finance as possible. Not just an introduction or a bookkeeping course, but some serious financial accounting. Over the years I've done several "trainwreck accounting" projects that involved bankruptcies and restructurings that could have been avoided if the owners/investors had simply been able to read and interpret their own data. I don't do any work today that involves taxes, as the code changes daily and if you're not practicing it fulltime you're apt to cause more problems than you solve. 

Anyway, as for who pays taxes and who doesn't, who should or shouldn't, whether taxation is a function of revenue raising or wealth redistribution, I submit that there is an alternative position that suggests that if we didn't demand or expect so much from the federal gubmint we just might find that the tax question resolves at least a part of it's own problems.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Not more than a week back, there was a discussion and I made the comments about a perticular bee supplier. (No need to bash any further) Comments about poor service, and such. One of the responses was about "good service is not found(or hard to find) any longer". Thinking back on that post, I was thinking of this discussion.

This particular outfit advertises "Beekeepers serving beekeepers". The ralationship is this...Is there "worth" in that comment? Sure, they make it for a reason. Do I take note of such comments, sure. Now, did I feel that my best interest was at the forefront, or that they valued my patronage of thier business..No. And so why buy from small business with no apparent service value. And if it comes down to one company or another with no difference in service, then the bottom line is cost. I, and many others, have forgone service and feeling like a valued customer, instead focusing on the best price. Will I pay for service? Yes. And do I expect to still be treated with respect and as if my money meant something to them? Sure. Take that away, and my money goes to the best price. And if mom and pop can't compete on price, and treat me no better than a "chain", than my money goes to the chain. Simple as that.

Reminds me of another supplier, that after spending well over 10,000 in one year with them, they sent me a ball-cap with thier logo on it. Imagine that...I do not wear ball-caps. They did not know if I wore ball-caps. They did know as a beekeeper I probably use hive tools, or a host of other bee-related items. Did they send me something I could use? no. I sent them a letter and returned the hat. I know from last weeks post that many would never do such a thing. In fact many would of been blown away with this show of gratitude. Not me. Poor marketing, and poor choice on wasting money. They should pay me for wearing the ball-cap. They think I'm so low that I will advertise for them for free, or value a ball-cap as a thank you for the business that I sent thier way.....they have alot to learn. 

I use these two examples to show that service, and customer loyalty go hand in hand. If it does not, than price is what matter.

Many small businesses start that way, and through doing the right thing, they grow into a big business. Then of course people bash them for providing not only a good price, but service along the way, all the while putting small operators who can't get it right, out of business. Thats why some companies grow, and some do not. 

I like big business for price. I'll deal with a small outfit for other things than price, but I better feel valued and appreciated.

I have a small business. One day I want it to be big. Thats part of the capitalistic spirit. I think its good for everyone involved. If not, than I will never get to where I want to be.

I'll leave all the comments about taxes, jobs, and other big business contributions to others to make. Those who do not see the postives and are blinded with other reasons to dislike "big" business, usually having self reasons of this view. Maybe too much liberal-left-media. I don't know. I'm sitting here looking at my computor, hooked up to a telephone line, and wonder if people really think multiple businesses could provide this type of support and service. I like big business for what is is. Cheap product, service (if we all want it), and many other good points. Is big business perfect, no. But that can be said of each small-business, and each private operator(that happen to be guilty of all the same comments about big business...pollution, profit over ethics, and a host of smaller items that happen to be below the radar.)


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

To respond to Coyote (I think it was him), you're exactly right, China's currency is pegged to ours right now, but with the dollar declining in value against the euro, how much longer do you think they're going to want to ride the sinking ship? They're holding on to (and basing their currency on) a currency that's losing value in the market.

Expecting the wealthy to pay all the taxes is not really fair either. They already pay a whole hell of a lot more than any of us do (sorry if any of YOU are paying 50%), and most of them worked a whole lot harder to get there. Everyone bullying the wealthy (frivolous medical lawsuits that this state is famous for come to mind) for the money that they worked hard to go to grad school and earn is NOT a capitalist system. It's a bunch of people acting like third graders whining about how "he's got more than me! That's not fair!"


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

After reading my own post, I had another thought. Here I'm going to talk specifically about medical doctors rather than "the wealthy". One of the benefits of the medical profession paying so well is that it creates competition for those jobs. When you have competition for any job, you're going to end up with better employees. In the medical field, this means that you'll get the surgeon who did well in med school instead of the guy who was drunk and partying the whole time. Personally, I'd rather pay more and have someone who payed attention in anatomy and fared well on the MCAT. Even if we WERE paying the same percentage as doctors, they would still be paying for a lot more than their share. As it is, they pay a HIGHER percentage AND malpractice, and a host of other insurances and costs associated with the medical profession. Asking them to do even MORE for the rest of society takes a lot of gall, in my opinion.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>. I will not buy at Wal Mart and i only buy things made in USA 

Maybe you should take a closer look at Walmart products, they dont all come from China


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Reminds me of another supplier, that after spending well over 10,000 in one year with them, they sent me a ball-cap with thier logo on it. Imagine that

Bjornbee, find another supplier. That is how things like this works. If one doesnt treat your needs, find another. Your sitting here festering about their poor business practices ( or your impression of their poor business practices )

I think you wouldnt have been happy with anything they sent you, and even unhappy if they didnt send you anything at all. I have lots of ball caps from the business dealing I do with industry. Its a common gesture of appreciation,..


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

magnet, CPAs know how to count beans, but economists know how and why beans get moved to where they are to be counted, and I think my education (MS economics, Brown, Pol Sci, Brown, and LLB, Northwestern Law) gives me an understanding of how beans wind up where they do.

A CPA knows that a corp writes a big check to the government and thinks that means the corp pays taxes...nope, the corp collects the taxes from their customers in a product priced high enough to cover all costs including taxes, and passes those taxes they collected from their customers along to the government. The only entity that pays taxes is the individual...everyone else prior to the individual just collects them and passes it on to the government.

BubbaBob


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> The only entity that pays taxes is the individual...everyone else prior to the individual just collects them and passes it on to the government


This is correct. We are a consumer economy, and the consumer ultimately pays for everything.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

So true about the doctor bit Sting. We have a local doctor that refuses to take any insurence. He runs his own pharmacy. He will tell you he became a doctor to help people not to get rich. He is 78 this year. His office visit cost is from $10-$30 depending on how long you are there. While on a horse ride that I was on a horse fell and had a very bad cut from a rock. We had called the vet but it was going to take him hours to get there. This doc happen to be out our way on this Saturday. He saw a crowd on the side of the road and stopped. Once he saw what was going on he grabbed his bag and doctored the horse. As the old country doctors took care of both the people and their animals. He has never had a malpractice suit filed against him. My problem with most doctors these days is the profit they seek and patient care means nothing to alot of them.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

As for the doctor thing, I am amazed there is ANY doctor ANYWHERE willing to deliver a baby other than by C-section thanks to the likes of John Edwards.

BubbaBob


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Ian, I did. You see the comments and not the bigger point and message I was making. Using examples of business practices, and what makes a good company and what makes a company grow, along with personal stories to highlight items, is sometimes accomplished with making a point.

I am glad you are happy with ball caps as customer appreciation gifts. Wear them proudly.

Meanwhile I was making statements of service, price, big business vs. small business views and why some go to big places like Wal-mart, when nothing seperates big from small except a price tag. 

And you may see it as small stuff, but I expect good service, and I expect my customers to expect and receive the same.

If you re-read my comments, there was alot said. I am dissappointed that for all the time I took to write it, you pick-up on nothing more than a story of a ball-cap. I was hoping to show that if small-businesses are to keep customers not based on low price, than maybe other items such as service should be maximized. I personally think 10 grand for beekeeping supplies is not small potatoes. And yes, I would of been happier if they did not send me a useless cap, made in china, to say thank you. Next one I get, I'll send it to you.


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## tryp (Nov 28, 2004)

BubbaBob You have no idea, don't assume you are the only one that knows what is going on. 

I'm just as educated as you if not moreso because my education is in engineering rather than exploitation (lawyer). I wasn't trying to make it personal but your accusations of tripe and such are taking the argument down a notch and if you want to go there right on. So as a lawyer perhaps the greatest of the non-producers in our pisspoor pseudo free capitalist system. How much money did you make? How much are you still living off that money? I'd bet your house in the country is paid for with your former non-producing salary you wannabe back to the land, trend hippie. 

I personally love living in the land of plenty and will continue to however I know that perhaps in my lifetime the lights are going to go out, and the pumps will run dry. And when that comes I will be QUITE HAPPY raising my own food and fuel, hewing my own logs and defending what I created from those who didn't prepare. I don't care if this event comes sooner or later, but in the meantime I'm somewhat disgusted by the fragile system that everyone relies so much on. It is not SUSTAINABLE, almost none of the world we live in today is not sustainable. 

You being much older will probably never see the downfall of our decadent society, myself and my wife(also an engineer) being in our early twenties will see some major changes to our societal structure in our lifetimes. Most likely due to an energy shortage.

As a Canadian I don't see why you use my nationality as a indicator that I don't know what I'm talking about. We are in a very similar boat. Not the same one but similar, I'd also like to see ownership and jobs stay in my own country, but governments get greedy for foreign money and let anyone with investment funds in because it means cash for them now, who cares that they are eliminating the middle class from our countries.

Lets agree to disagree, and how 'bout we don't just broadly dismiss each others arguments without adressing the facts presented, k.

tryptamine


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

BubbaBob... what did you mean by the cesarian section thing and John Edwards? This must have been something that happened while I was studying to become a *rich, greedy* doctor.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<<BubbaBob you are quite enamored with the "pillars of society" is it that you aspire to be in a position where you live off others labour. Or are you right now?

Don't even get me started on the "what do you mean we can't patent living things and enslave the world" arseholes like Monsanto.

<<why is it that some fatass investor that was born into the right family gets to sit on his lazy ass>>

I lowered the level of the discussion? I don't think so...I just came down to the level YOU went to.

<<And seriously do you think if we sent all foreign companies home that we would lose jobs? Say send home the German insurance company that your wife works for, THEN SHE COULD WORK FOR AN AMERICAN COMPANY DOING THE SAME JOB. The work is HERE the job is HERE, the customers are HERE>>

THAT is where the Canuk reference came from...you keep saying WE and HERE when refering to US jobs...I figgered we must have annexed Canada, or at least British Columbia, while I wasn't looking. BTW, while we are rearranging jobs based on where companies are based the US oughtta bring back all the jobs WE shipped to Canada, Ford assembly plants for example.

<<my education is in engineering rather than exploitation...lawyer.>>

That's EX lawyer, thank you very much.

<<So as a lawyer perhaps the greatest of the non-producers in our pisspoor pseudo free capitalist system.>>

Ah...emotion over facts...the greatest bastion of liberalism there is...basically follows the legal profession's mantra of "If you can't facinate 'em with facts baffle 'em with bulls*it".

<<How much money did you make? How much are you still living off that money? I'd bet your house in the country is paid for with your former non-producing salary you wannabe back to the land, trend hippie.>>

On the income thing, frankly it's none of your business. As to a paid for house in the country (NO) and non-producing salary (probably accurate)...but I had to laugh with the "you wannabe back to the land trend hippie". You haven't a clue.

<<I personally love living in the land of plenty and will continue to...>>

Actually you don't live in the land of plenty unless we DID annex British Columbia...the land of plenty is south of you.

Ah well...back to the beeyard.

BubbaBob


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

east, check out this on Sen John Edwards, D-NC, former candidate for vice-president, and former ambulance chaser...er...lawyer specializing in medical malpractice...

<<During his 20 years of suing doctors and hospitals, he pioneered the art of blaming psychiatrists for patients who commit suicide and blaming doctors for delivering babies with cerebral palsy, according to doctors, fellow lawyers and legal observers who followed Mr. Edwards' career in North Carolina.
"The John Edwards we know crushed [obstetrics, gynecology] and neurosurgery in North Carolina," said Dr. Craig VanDerVeer, a Charlotte neurosurgeon. "As a result, thousands of patients lost their health care."
"And all of this for the little people?" he asked, a reference to Mr. Edwards' argument that he represented regular people against mighty foes such as prosperous doctors and big insurance companies. "How many little people do you know who will supply you with $60 million in legal fees over a couple of years?" 
One of his most noted victories was a $23 million settlement he got from a 1995 case  his last before joining the Senate  in which he sued the doctor, gynecological clinic, anesthesiologist and hospital involved in the birth of Bailey Griffin, who had cerebral palsy and other medical problems.
Linking complications during childbirth to cerebral palsy became a specialty for Mr. Edwards. In the courtroom, he was known to dramatize the events at birth by speaking to jurors as if he were the unborn baby, begging for help, begging to be let out of the womb.
"He was very good at it," said Dr. John Schmitt, an obstetrician and gynecologist who used to practice in Mr. Edwards' hometown of Raleigh. "But the science behind a lot of his arguments was flawed."
In 2003, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists published a joint study that cast serious doubt on whether events at childbirth cause cerebral palsy. The "vast majority" of cerebral palsy cases originate long before childbirth, according to the study.
"Now, he would have a much harder time proving a lot of his cases," said Dr. Schmitt, who now practices at the University of Virginia Health System.
Another profitable area of litigation for Mr. Edwards was lawsuits against psychiatrists whose patients committed suicide.
In 1991, he won $2.2 million for the estate of a woman who hanged herself in a hospital after being removed from suicide watch. It was the first successful medical-malpractice case in Mr. Edwards' home of Wake County.
During jury selection, Mr. Edwards asked potential jurors whether they could hold a doctor responsible for the suicide of their patients.
In the end, Mr. Edwards scored $1.5 million for "wrongful death" and $175,000 in "emotional distress" for the woman's children.
In 1995, as Mr. Edwards neared the pinnacle of his success, Lawyers Weekly reported on the state's 50 biggest settlements of the year.
"Like last year, the medical malpractice category leads the new list, accounting for 16 cases  or 32 percent  three points better than last year," the magazine reported. "By and large, that upward trend had held since 1992, when only four [medical malpractice] cases made the survey."
Mr. Edwards was singled out.
"Another reason for this year's [medical malpractice] jump was a strong showing by the Raleigh firm of Edwards & Kirby," it reported. "Partner John Edwards was lead counsel in eight of the 16 medical malpractice cases in the top 50."
It is not clear just how much Mr. Edwards made as a lawyer, but estimates based on a review of his lawsuit settlements and Senate records place his fortune at about $38 million.
As a result of these and other cases, insurance rates for doctors have skyrocketed  putting some out of business and driving others away, especially from rural areas. And doctors who have lost cases to Mr. Edwards have been bankrupted.
Patients, meanwhile, are left with rising health care costs and fewer  if any  doctors in their area. It is increasingly a nationwide problem, physicians say.
Dr. VanDerVeer, the Charlotte neurosurgeon, recalled one recent night on duty when two patients arrived in an emergency room in Myrtle Beach, S.C., where the area's last neurosurgeons quit earlier this year.
"No one in Myrtle Beach would accept responsibility for these patients," he said. And because it was raining, the helicopters were grounded, so the patients were loaded into ambulances and driven the four hours to Charlotte.
Upon arrival, one patient had died, and the other learned that she merely had a minor concussion  and a $6,000 bill for the ambulance ride.
"That's just one little slice of life here," Dr. VanDerVeer said. "It's a direct result of the medical-malpractice situation that John Edwards fomented."
Dr. Schmitt had spent 20 years delivering babies in Raleigh. Though he had no claims against him, his insurance tripled in one year. With no assurances that his rates would ever drop, or just stop rising, he left town.
Doctors, however, take it all a bit more personally.
"We are currently being sued out of existence," Dr. VanDerVeer said. "People have to choose whether they want these lawyers to make gazillions of dollars in pain and suffering awards or whether they want health care.">>

A real sweetie...

BubbaBob


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## wjw777 (Mar 24, 2002)

Ian, 
What Walmart do you shop at????


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## latebee (Aug 22, 2004)

It really appears that we are all like minded when it comes to corporate giants and thier unscrupulous tactics.Perhaps if we brainstormed a few counter measures togehter some tactical strategies to combat them would surface. The consumer is as weary as we(the producer) are of mega-corporate misgivings.Collectively a smart market approach i.e. some slogan or or honest health claims about our products would help. I am sure you have all noticed the resurgence of the micro-brewery,the small wine making facilities and the huge succeses of the"Town square markets" in your areas.Some of you out there must be familiar with marketing and your ideas and input would be of great help to all of us who work in agriculture for the love of it all.This would just be icing on the cake if we could make a decent return on our investment.(not counting labor of course lol)


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<<It really appears that we are all like minded when it comes to corporate giants and thier unscrupulous tactics.>>

Well, sorta.

I don't like unscrupulous business tactics any more than anyone else, be it Enron or the corner garage that puts a used battery in your car and, because it's real clean looking charges you for a new one figuring you don't know the date code on a battery (it's happened to me with a local small business).

By the same token, standard knee jerk reactionism against big business just because it's big business is one of the stupidest attitudes you can have.

Take beekeeping for example.

I like that I have a couple of stainless steel extractors, and while I guess I could fabricate one myself, I'd be hard pressed to manufacture the stainless steel and motor myself...it takes "big business" to do that.

I have my hives scattered out over five counties, and need to move them several times a year to maximize honey production. I suppose I could use horse and buggy, but the area covered would be much smaller, the amount of honey would be much smaller, and I'd have to work much harder. I prefer to have an F250 diesel truck, manufactured by "big business".

When big business screws up, they should be dealt with accordingly, just as the local small business crook should be. Lack of morals and ethics is not a function of size.

BubbaBob


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Cargills decision was probably one of purely economic's
Very small market compared to their other markets. The market is no longer high priced - industrial honey is being supplied cheap from foreign sources.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<Ian, 
What Walmart do you shop at???? >>

I happened into one today:

1 can of tennis balls(for the dog)-Made in China
One corkscrew(for my girlfriend, I can be difficult-Italy
Can opener-USA
Plastic tray for under a flowerpot-USA
John Deere American Farmer videogame(cold snap coming)-USA
One clay flowerpot-not marked


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>> What Walmart do you shop at????

BeeMaid honey, the honey packer I belong to, has made a deal to supply Canadian Walmart division (or what ever you call Canadas Walmart). And BeeMaid honey, you know, is 100% Canadian honey.









I am not of course talking about US Walmarts, but our Wlamart is supporting its domestic producers, for now anyway,.? 

But, our "home town" Super Store, just recently switched to an off shore blend of honey,...


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## latebee (Aug 22, 2004)

Point well taken Bubbabob,just venting there-but as well as beekeeping I produce maple syrup and look what Aunt J. and other substitute syrups have done to that industry.The very same could easily happen with honey given some time as previously noted in another post. I was trying to provoke some anger here so that maybe if a movement against this synthetic "clone" honey were initiated we might arrive at a few workable ideas. At the present I am just a hobby beekeeper,but do rely on part of my income from maple. Just hate to see another big hit against the producers.


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## John Russell (Aug 8, 2003)

Well, now that we have drifted far enough from topic,( Franken honey to C-sections....wow...)


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

John, we made the circle...last post before yours was maple syrup and honey...LOL

BubbaBob


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## Darrel Wright (Jun 30, 2004)

Bubba, you make the same mistake that you are critisizing in others. Corporations pay no taxes because they figure it into the price of their goods? By that token, I can say that individuals pay no taxes because they figure it into the price of their labor. But in reality, neither corporate profit margins nor individual profit margins (which I guess would be earnings after consumption, or savings) are static. If what you said were true, Wall Street would not favor the Republicans and their lower corporate and post-consumption taxes. 

And if your argument is that price always goes up to mirror cost of services, then why would doctors be "going out of business" (as your anti-lawyer screed claims) just because their cost of service went up? Especially considering they are in a field where the customers (beyond those in need of cosmetic surgery) are the very definition of a captive market base. Has anyone actually seen one of these mythical bankrupt doctors? I went to school with several dunderheads who shouldn't be allowed to pick their own noses, but who are now practicing doctors with the BMW and all that. Believe me, if it was even remotely possible to not be rich as a doctor, I know at least one guy who would have proven it.

One of the biggest factors in the huge awards for obstetrics mistakes is that it often leads to lifelong disability that leads to huge dollars of future medical and developmental costs. I wonder if people would be so scandalized at these awards if they were simply reported as "free medical care for life," because in practice that is often what juries are trying to accomplish. Of course, with medical care costs as they are, this can mean several million dollars.

The single most influential factors on heathcare costs are research on new drugs, marketing on drugs, and most significantly, the AMA's artificial limits and influence on medical school admissions. The latter is the reason your doctor is always busy, why interns have to go 38 hours at a shift and end up hacking off the wrong arm, why they can never see you for more than 5 minutes, and why you pay so much. It is not a free market system, quite the contrary-- but you won't hear a peep about the AMA in all the talk about medical costs.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

My doctor told me that MDs are moving from Penn. to other states where there are lower malpractice rates. He said there are few neurosurgeons left.

dickm


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

Wow... this thread has gotten a bit out of hand, methinks.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<<Bubba, you make the same mistake that you are critisizing in others. Corporations pay no taxes because they figure it into the price of their goods? By that token, I can say that individuals pay no taxes because they figure it into the price of their labor.>>

Wrong.

With some input from the customer base, ie must be a price the buyer is willing to pay, Widget Corp sets it's prices, based on costs, including taxes, and desired profit margins.

Labor, on the other hand, with rare exception, does not set the price paid for it...and when labor does set it's own value, it is usually unreasonably inflated and destructive to an industry (see domestic steel, whose demise was mainly due to inflated labor costs brought on by unions).

If you are working for Widget Corp running their widgetometer testing new widgets, and that job is worth $10.00/hr to Widget Corp, you will get $10.00/hr for your labor, set by Widget Corp, not by you.

So, when corporate bashers get corporate taxes raised, Widget Corp simply raises it's sales price to compensate...ergo, the individual pays the taxes.

Simple economics.

BubbaBob


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## moposcar (Apr 5, 2002)

"Could I be reading comments from people who never shop at Wal-mart."

That is right...I do not shop there...I make a concerted effort to avoid the place. I don't agree with how they treat their employees.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Ditto moposcar....


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<<I don't agree with how they treat their employees.>>

Why would that stop your shopping? If employees are unhappy they can go get another job...no one forces them to work at Wally World.

Employment is a contract between the employee and the employer. The employee has a product (labor) to sell, and the employer is willing to pay "x", of their own money, to purchase that labor. It is a classic contractural arrangement and I don't see it as anyone's business outside the parties to the contract.

BubbaBob


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## Darrel Wright (Jun 30, 2004)

"Simple economics."

Simple is one word for it. Completely ridiculous is another.

"With some input from the customer base, ie must be a price the buyer is willing to pay, Widget Corp sets it's prices, based on costs, including taxes, and desired profit margins."

Totally meaningless. Desired profit margins? Are you drunk? The desired profit margin is one hundred million billion percent. The price is based on what the market can bear. Period.

"Labor, on the other hand, with rare exception, does not set the price paid for it"

Labor always sets it's wage, by agreeing to work or not at the offered wage or negotiating a different one.

"If you are working for Widget Corp running their widgetometer testing new widgets, and that job is worth $10.00/hr to Widget Corp, you will get $10.00/hr for your labor, set by Widget Corp, not by you."

Every part of this is wrong. Widget corp will not pay what it is worth to it, it will pay the lowest price that I will agree to. If everyone available is already wealthy, they will have to pay 100 dollars, if everyone is starving, they can (and will) pay $1.50. The rate has nothing to do with "what the job is worth" but rather the scarcity of labor. 

But I won't test those **** widgets for $10.00. I'm going to go to three colleges and become an "economist."


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

Take a reading course as well...two colleges.

And yes, many will go to college and not have to settle for 10/hr running the widgetometer...but many will make bad life choices and drop out of high school and running the widgetometer is the best they can do with their skill set, and will not even consider going back for more schooling later. Widget Corp should be faulted for not paying a high rate of pay just to be nice?

BubbaBob


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Bubbabob,
Just out of curiosity... how much time have you spent working for a wage paid by the hour? some knowlege can't be gleaned from books.

dickm


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Boo Hoo Hoo, Goverments not perfect, Bush is not perfect, big companies are not perfect, the economy is not perfect. Blah, blah blah. 

And congradulations to all who do not shop at Wal-mart. Stick your chests out far, and pat yourself on the back, and feel good. Thats what most who bash goverment, big companies, or most other things are doing. Feeling good.

As for Wal-mart. I see no difference in them, and the local family run store that hires nothing but part-time school kids to run the register and stock shelves. No benefits, no full-time employees, and just as bad treatment. They rotate the kids fast, as most businesses do. And whats funny about this situation, no bias from the media, no big news-worthy stories, no community outcry......oh wait, they only do that to big businesses like Wal-mart. (And the local store has higher prices, less selection and just as poor service.)

XYX "big company" pollutes and makes a big news stories. Reporters getting the scoop, and many read with anger. But I am sure that if you combine the problems, pollution, business tactics, and a host of other items from many smaller businesses to total about the same size as a big company, than they would be no better off.

It killed me to read about one person suggesting beekeepers forming a co-op. What for? Price breaks? Better marketing? Better prices? But what will happen to the small guy, the guy who does not join the co-op. At what point will the co-op be considered a "big" business? At what point will it hurt the next smaller guy? Is that being hypocritical?

Open market, free trade, supply and demand. Thats what the market is. I almost think most who constantly harbor on all the negatives, would be very hard pressed to take the other side of the issue and argue for all the good points of something like Wal-mart, or big business contribution, or our economic structure. In understanding one side and argue for or against it, it is wise to know the other side. I bet most read the paper and suck up all the media points as it is slanted by the unions, economists, enviromentalists, and liberal media in general.

I would write more, but I am getting ready to go to wal-mart.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<<Bubbabob,
Just out of curiosity... how much time have you spent working for a wage paid by the hour? some knowlege can't be gleaned from books.>>

Curiosity is a good thing...most learning is a result of curiosity.

Work background besides shystering...er...lawyering? Well, growing up in south Georgia I started working at 15 running a chainsaw in the pulp woods during summer vacation, and bagging groceries at the local grocery store during the school year. I kept up the pulp woods work summers during college.

For the 10 years after graduation, I lawyered until I got sick of looking myself in the mirror trying to shave in the morning.

Back to the pulp woods for a year driving a logging truck and saving pennies till I could buy a truck (VERY used) and go on the road hauling produce for 8 years. Watermelons Florida to Canada. Last 3 years after getting a better truck produce from the valley in California to Boston market or Hunts Point market in NYC.

I got tired of living in a truck and spent 5 years running heavy equipment, mostly track hoes, until my drinking and some non-alcohol related health problems put a stop to that.

For the last 4 years or so I have been a part time alcohol and addiction counselor and a sorta "sustainable farmer". I only have 2.5 acres so I cannot do a lot, but I manage to raise 2500 starter tomato plants a year to sell at the local farmer's market in April, raise ****akii and Oyster mushrooms for the same market, grow a small (1/5 acre) market garden using intensive gardening methods raising cabbage, lettuce, carrots, radishes, cauliflour, broccoli, and garlic, make one ton of handcrafted (home made...tourists like "handcrafted" better) soap for arts and crafts fairs, turn wood art (bowls, hollow vessels, platters) and wife makes beaded jewlery to sell at the same arts/crafts fairs, and then there are the bees. Depending on the weather I produce between 7,000 and 15,000 pounds of local honey a year, marketed at retail at the farmers market, arts/crafts fairs, and farm gate sales. Lastly, I make about 240 gallons of bio-diesel a month for use in my diesel pick-up truck, not because I'm a Mother Earth News type eco-nut, but because I can make it for 60-70 cents a gallon as opposed to the $2.11 per gallon Wally World sells it for today...and as a side benefit, the ecology benefits as well.

Earlier in this thread tryp wanted to know, or made an assumption, about my background as well:

<<So as a lawyer perhaps the greatest of the non-producers in our pisspoor pseudo free capitalist system. How much money did you make? How much are you still living off that money? I'd bet your house in the country is paid for with your former non-producing salary you wannabe back to the land, trend hippie.>>

I gave him a short answer, but on reflection I will expand a bit.

How much money did I make? Lots. Spent and drank it all though.


How much am I still living off that money? None. See previous question. Tryp, you'll bet my house in the country is paid for with my former non-producing salary? You'll lose that bet. Six years ago, due to the drinking and a divorce, I owned one suitcase of clothes and an old car. However, rather than whine and cry about the raw deal I had gotten, I decided to clean up my act and correct problems that were caused by ME rather than blaming the world.

Then my favorite part...<<you wannabe back to the land, trend hippie.>> Ah yes...the favorite tactic of liberals...when facts fail you, try to win the argument with ad hominum attack. Kinda reminds me of folks like Michael Moore and Barbra Striesand.

Back to the bees.

BubbaBob


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Hi, My name is Bruce..... and I'm an alcoholic.

Bubbabob.... Your story is inspiring as are many of those found in recovery.

I am a die hard liberal (to the left of Abby Hoffman).

I will never agree with your politics or perhaps religion. And I will not argue them either.

That said, I will chat for hours about your farm, biodiesel, boozing, etc. I only wish you were closer so we could do coffee.

One of my best friends is to the right of Rush. We have a great time bashing each other in fun. I am a "Watermelon" .... Green on the outside, Red on the inside" He is a money grubbing corperate brown noser. We keep it light.

Take care ....... Bruce (Sober since 1985, Eco-Nut, Liberal, Mother Earth News Guy)


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

Be careful Bruce...

<<I am a die hard liberal>>

Life is a circle...if you go too far left you'll find yourself coming up to the right of even folks like me...LOL

BubbaBob


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Thanks Bruce,
I feel that I know you better

dickm


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

Bubbabob... I must say that you're inspiring for a young person (in college now) planning the life ahead. I really respect that you were at the top (of the rat race) and voluntarily withdrew to a simpler way of living in order to improve your quality of life.

I'm planning on going to med school when I finish my undergrad (in chemistry), and hopefully that won't turn in to the kind of job you described. I think it's a bit different, but I'll be vigilant anyway. A lot of people I know (I live in a SMALL farming town) come down on me about the salary that comes along with being a doctor, and I would be lying if I told you that wasn't an important part of why I chose that as a career. 

Anyway, it's inspiring to see somone like yourself to remind me that even big mistakes can be corrected if you're willing to do the grunt work.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> ...Eco-Nut, Liberal, Mother Earth News Guy

Watch out there, Bruce - the "Mother Earth News"
got bought by one of those "soulless multinational
corporations". Most of the staff left to create 
"Backhome" http://www.backhomemagazine.com 

The company publishes 36 daily papers, magazines, 
telephone directories, weekly papers and "shopping 
guides" in a dozen states. These are, of course,
excellent qualifications to be a wellspring of
information about how to "go back to the land",
aren't they?


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## Darrel Wright (Jun 30, 2004)

"Widget Corp should be faulted for not paying a high rate of pay just to be nice?"

Who said that? You are trying to argue with someone in your own head, I guess the mythical "liberal." They shouldn't be "faulted" for taking advantage of cheap labor (as long as they don't conspire to create that cheap labor, which does happen), nor praised for paying a high rate when they have to do that. All I took exception to is your blindness to half of the economic picture. I like corporations.

"For the 10 years after graduation, I lawyered until I got sick of looking myself in the mirror trying to shave in the morning."

There are plenty of things you can do with a law degree that don't involve compromising your values. Some of them, in fact, are quite noble. You running down lawyers as an ex-lawyer is just an indictment of your own choices at that time, not the profession. There are as many messed up truck drivers as there are lawyers. Probably more. The measure of a person is not their profession or their skills, but what they choose to do with them. 

Glad to hear you have found a life that is more comfortable for you. Alcohol can be pretty insidious.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Jim......... Good one and I agree. I stopped subscribing in 1975. It was getting too commercial for my tastes.

Darrel hits it on the head. A law degree does not directly translate to being a crook. There are carpenter, plumber, truck driver, and farmer crooks.

My brother is a lawyer, my father, as well as my grandfather. All are, or were, extrodinary men with morals to aspire too.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

I know it's not really this simple, but I see (or saw at the time at least) 4 directions I could take as a lawyer, and I found 2 disgusting and 2 not my cup of tea.

The 2 I found disgusting were:

1. Criminal defense. While I do believe in our legal system, and do believe a person has a right to a fair trial, I could not bring myself to fight to get a person acquitted by WHATEVER LEGAL MEANS necessary, regardless of guilt or innocence. I saw myself saying to myself, "Yes Bob, I know the scumbag really did rape all 5 of those women, and yes Bob, he did kill 2 of them, but I also know that the cops screwed up in executing the search warrant, and once you get the evidence gathered with that warrant thrown out, the prosecutor's case falls apart and justice will be served, despite the piece of filth going free BY YOUR ACTIONS." Sorry, couldn't do that.

2. Family law.  That's the nice term. Divorce lawyer is another term that applies and I couldn't be proud of feeding my family by breaking up other families.

The other 2 are:

1. Corporate law. You'd have to know me. No one that does, now or then, can see me sitting at a desk pushing paper around. There aren't a lot of corporate lawyers working in bib overalls.

2. Prosecutor. Sorry, but I don't want a government paycheck.

Also, regarding all but the corporate deal, don't think for a minute the lawyer you hire is working for you or in the pursuit of justice. Lawyers are officers of the court, not your "employees" and are out to win, at any LEGAL cost, not find justice. For the last 25-30 years or so, the person with the deepest pockets and most expensive law firm wins 99% of the time.

On Mother Earth News, I read it last a few months ago and found Kennedy on the cover spouting eco garbage while he flies around in a private jet wasting tons (literally) of fuel to haul one or two people, while he, at the same time, tries to tell me what effeciency my mode of transport should have. No thanks...I'll stick to Countryside from now on.

Lastly, I'm not an inspiration to anyone except, I hope, my two sons. I'm just a drunk that got sick and tired of being sick and tired.

BubbaBob


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> A law degree does not directly translate to 
> being a crook.

Of course not, but if you take a lawyer, an MBA,
and a computer running a spreadsheet program and
put them in the same room for a while, the MBA
figures out how to get a loan to do a "leveraged
buyout", buy some company, fire everyone, and
sell the physical assets for a 10% greater
return than the company would make in 5 years
of normal operations.

The lawyer works out how to avoid the taxes
by forming a corporation in the Bahamas or
one of the other tax havens, and works out
the complicated paperwork required to "do the
deal".

So while neither a lawyer nor an MBA have any
"evil" intent, the two together are like burglary
tools (mere possession of the tools is considered
prima facie evidence of an intent to break into
places and steal stuff).

Yes, I'm being silly. Any similarity to reality
is mere coincidence. Any similarity to your own
personal reality is a darned shame.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I knew the day I saw a "how to" on building your own exercise equipment and the ads were mostly for new SUV's that I wasn't going to renew my Mother Earth News subscription. If you have time and energy for exercise equipment you are NOT a homesteader.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> For the last 25-30 years or so, the person with the deepest pockets and most expensive law firm wins 99% of the time.


Could it be that the most expensive attorneys are also the best ones? I wince when I write the retainer check, but by the time it's all over I've found that having the best attorney in the courtroom is worth every penny.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

> Support HR25...the Fair Tax Act...national retail sales tax.


Well BubbaBob dont most people in the field of dismal science believe that a sales tax or a consumption tax is a regressive tax?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>For the last 25-30 years or so, the person with the deepest pockets and most expensive law firm wins 99% of the time.

I guess that makes me a 1%'er.


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

>Support HR25...the Fair Tax Act...national retail sales tax.

I support it whole heartedly. Unlike the current system, it will not punish you for making, saving, and/or investing your own money. In my opinion it will shift a large part of the tax burden from the thrifty to the more materialistic consumers. As a bonus, it will (or should) reduce the IRS to a small fraction of its current self. No more complicated forms or saving receipts. No more paycheck witholding and April 15 will be just another day. And contrary to popular belief, the poor will not have to pony up to a 20% sales tax on essential products. They will do well by this system, as they do under the current system.

http://www.fairtax.org


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

It is an interesting concept as is VAT.

Thinking the tax can evaded by eing "thrifty" will probably not hold. I am sure that they will quickly apply the tax to internet sales, garage sales, used goods, food, clothing, etc.

There will still be state income taxes, local taxes, and witholding for SS and Medicare. 

Is there a provision for refund for those under certain income levels? Is there a ceiling for the wealthy? (I would be surprized if there were not)


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## Butterchurn (Jan 13, 2005)

Thanks for the Back Home mag link! I'm as politically conservative as you get but I have a homesteader/self-sufficieny spirit. I think the two go together fairly well. Lived in the big city all my life, but hope to retire to my own homestead in a few years. Raise bees, chickens and rabbits - big garden.

Ron


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

After checking out Jim's link (thanks Jim) I ordered the 2 issue trial for $5.95.

I am 3 to 5 years from totally "unplugging". Nearest neighbor is 1 mile away. I raise bees (soon), apples, huge garden, and deer and waterfowl thick as skeeters. We can harvest as many deer as you care to buy tags for. Last season I harvested 4 and they are in the freezer and canned.

After growing up and living in central Minn populated areas it is refreshing to be here. Still loads of small communities that are insulated from "Walmartization" by miles and lack of customer base.

One local hardware store sells hardware, groceries, excellent seafood, guns, ammo, and anything else you can think of!

People wave at you as you pass them on the tar roads (blew me away when I first got here). No traffic, rushes, etc.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh......... Only wish I'd done this 20 years ago.

Sorry for babbling on........


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## Butterchurn (Jan 13, 2005)

Sundance,

I envy you! Sounds like heaven to me! Actually, I used to live in Grand Forks. I was stationed at GFAFB in the 70s and received my Ph.D. from UND.

What you're doing is how I see my retirement. It may sound strange that a psychology professor would want to get away from the crowd, but that is what I want. I've lived too long amidst the crowd and want some time to refresh my soul amidst nature.

Ron


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

[No message]


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

>...but corrupt in the sense that it has either flat out usurped the power and responsibility of states and individuals or, more likely, has assumed those things through sheer abdication on our part. 

Can't argue with that. From that standpoint, it is only more fair in how it is collected, not how much or what it's used for. It can be easily argued that if the federal government only undertook activities specifically sanctioned in the Constitution, it would all be academic as sufficient revenue could be generated from a few trade tarriffs. All other forms of government revenue collecting would be unnecessary.


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

BTW, Backhome magazine is a great publication. I subscribe to one called Backwoods Home. Not sure if they are "related". 

http://www.backwoodshome.com/index.html

Countryside and Small Stock Journal is probably my favorite.

http://www.countrysidemag.com/


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Ron,

Not strange at all, it fact it makes sense (from a psychological standpoint).


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<<There will still be state income taxes, local taxes, and witholding for SS and Medicare.>>

Right on the state taxes, as this only affects federal, but as proposed in HR25 SS and Medicare witholding will end as well as witholding (and corporate, capital gains, etc. taxes)

<<Is there a provision for refund for those under certain income levels? Is there a ceiling for the wealthy?>>

Yes...the "basic necessities of life" would be tax free through a "refund in advance". The way it would work under HR25 is that a baseline for necessities would be established and a check for the taxes on that baseline would be sent monthly IN ADVANCE. Example...for the sake of simplicity of the math, let's say the base for necessities for a family of four is 12,000 a year and the sales tax is 23%. The family would receive 230.00 a month in advance to pay the 23% tax on the 1000.00 per month necessity cost.

There would be no limits to benefit the wealthy as proposed. A rich dude buying a 10 million yacht would pay 2.3 million dollars in sales tax.

One benefit would be to force some who avoid taxes now to pay. While some would avoid taxes through means such as barter, that happens now, but others that currently avoid taxes by other means would have to pay. Example: Your local neighborhood drug dealer currently pays no taxes on his profits. Ubder HR25, when he went to spend his ill gotten gains on that shiny new Bimmer, he would pay sales tax on the sale and not be able to avoid paying his "fair share"...too bad.

It also gets rid, totally, of that criminal enterprise known as the IRS.

BubbaBob


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

So the employers contribution to SS and Medicare continues????

What about used items??

States have wanted and pushed for collection of sales taxes on internet purchases and mail order. The senators have resisted....... With the Feds involved that would change.

Are food and clothing exempt?

Thanks Bob

And what are the realistic chances for this bill?


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<<So the employers contribution to SS and Medicare continues????>>

This is an ASSUMPTION on my part, and we all know about assuming...since the author of the bill, Rep John Linder, R-GA is an acquaintance of mine and I have talked to him extensively on the workings of the bill, but not about your question specifically, I'd guess, by inference, that employer's contributions would go away as well, the 23% tax making up the lost revenue. I base this on Linders telling me HR25 would TOTALLY do away with the IRS, and the IRS has the responsibility of collecting employer's contributions. I'll check further to verify.

<<What about used items??>>

Depends. If you are my neighbor and buy a lawn mower from me, no tax. If you buy a car from me, no tax. Any non-commercial buying/selling involves no tax. If, on the other hand, the sales are a result of commercial enterprise, tax would apply. I know what you are thinking...here come 24/7 yard sales. Nope. Something akin to Georgia's used car laws would apply. A used car dealer in Georgia must be licensed by the state to be a dealer, and people used to buy/sell out of their back yard to circumvent being a "business". Now, if you sell over 6 cars a year you are considered a dealer.

<<States have wanted and pushed for collection of sales taxes on internet purchases and mail order. The senators have resisted....... With the Feds involved that would change.>>

Perhaps.

<<Are food and clothing exempt?>>

Those are in the necessities of life I spoke of. It would be a dollar figure for the total cost of food, rent, clothing, utilities, etc that make up the necessities of life...a baseline amount that would be tax free. If you chose to go over that with Versace clothing, filet mignon nightly, and live in a beachfront home in Malibu, spending over the baseline would be taxed.

<<And what are the realistic chances for this bill?>>

How do you rate chances? As a guess I'd say 25% sometime in the next 5 years, but I can see that as being overly optimistic or extremely pessimistic. Our congresspersons love buying power (staying in office) using taxpayer funded pork, and this bill would diminish that power, so many are against it. They rely on a fearful public (oldsters regarding social security reform) and an ignorant public (people paying more attention to Martha Stewart's release from prison and Michael Jackson's trial than things that directly impact them) to allow them to maintain that power. That's the pessimistic assesment.

On the other hand, people seem to be paying more attention to what is going on, and I have never seen anyone, liberal or conservative, that did not think this is a good idea once concerns like your's were answered. A fully educated public makes this much more possible much quicker.

BubbaBob


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

It's got my vote on the face of it.

There will still be some agency like the IRS for compliance and collection of those the fail to send in collections.

As a bussiness owner with 75% of my charges based on labor I am not too excited about collecting money for the government....... another unreimbursed cost to small biz.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Yes, but think of all the paperwork you'll SAVE not having to keep records on each employee etc.


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

I say we go to a FLAT TAX everybody pays 10% stright across the board. Upper class and lower class. On Gross income. Before deductions. Bet there would be a surplus.


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

>And what are the realistic chances for this bill?

I think the biggest impediment is the sheer magnitude of the change. I have not read the bill, but I hope it does not try to phase it in with some sort of hybrid system.

As this picks up steam, I expect MAJOR opposition from personal tax attorneys and the H&R Blocks out there along with all the lobbyists they can buy. I can only imagine the tales of woe that will be spun just like the predictions of the thousands of kids that will be made homeless every time the words "welfare reform" come up.

For what it's worth, Alan Greenspan fully supports the idea, although he admitted that a hybrid system may have to be proposed to achieve passage. He seems to carry a lot more clout on all things economic than does any administration.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<<There will still be some agency like the IRS for compliance and collection of those the fail to send in collections.>>

Not exactly. Remember, all but two states (I think) have a sales tax...collection and compliance methods are in place already. The state simply adds the tax to the existing state sales tax and passes the feds portion on to Washington.

<<I say we go to a FLAT TAX everybody pays 10% stright across the board. Upper class and lower class. On Gross income. Before deductions. Bet there would be a surplus.>>

It sounds good, but is inherently unfair. Let's say you make 20,000 per year and pay 2,000 in taxes, and the dastardly president of the aforementioned Widget Corp makes 2 million a year, and would pay 200,000 per year. Why? Do the rich have special streets paved with gold their higher taxes pay for? Are there special tanks and humvees plated in gold, operated by soldiers trained better than regular soldiers, that are assigned to protect the rich? Why not? If they are forced to pay more they should get more. That's another good thing about the sales tax. Everyone is equal as far as necessary purchases due to the exemption for necessities, but when the rich guy CHOOSES to buy a fancier car, big boat, or private jet, he CHOOSES to pay higher taxes rather than being forced to subsidize others...he DOES subsidize others, because he will spend a lot more than the exemption limit, but there is no coercion to pay for services he doesn't receive.

Go here for more info on the tax... www.fairtax.org

BubbaBob


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## hobbyfarm (Feb 18, 2005)

My problem with a national sales tax is: Who gets to decide what are "necessary" purchases?

Are my wife's uniforms necessary? Is a car? Who gets to decide if I need a 2-door Hyundai or a 4-door Chrysler? Or if I "need" a truck to haul around beehives and farm produce? Is a $30,000 bass boat a "necessity"? It is to the likes of Bill Dance, Roland Martin, etc. And what about housing -- is that taxed as well? So who gets to decide how many square feet are "appropriate" for my family. And what about regional cost differences? It costs more for everything in New York City than it does in Boston, and more in Boston than here in rural New Hampshire. Do New Yorker's have to get by on my "necessity" rate, or do I get the benefit of their rate. Or do we both get screwed? Or will there be a HUGE new National Necessity Localization Rate Board? Face it, the poor will lose no matter what. Every cent they earn will get spent and taxed. And what do you think will happen to all the employees working in the new "luxury" goods industries?

As to the CEO of Widget Corp., he has more to lose than the guy making 20k (and I can't believe I'm saying this) he should pay for the protection he gets. It's his choice to earn 2 million -- if he doesn't want the responsibility, let him take a pay cut! Or better yet -- how about a true flat tax? Every adult male or female, regardless of income, pays $10,000 a year for the privilege of living in the U.S. What if they can't pay? Put them in prison and pay them $.60 an hour to make Widgets. Then we could export all those Widgets to China and compete on a fair standing with their domestic production.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

> because he will spend a lot more than the exemption limit, but there is no coercion to pay for services he doesn't receive.


He also spends a much smaller percentage of his income than the middle class. What he does not spend is not taxed and can earn more wealth. The old rule of thumb truly kicks in. The wealthy get wealthier. Also, what he spends on his European vacation is not taxed. 

Another issue to consider is there is a lot of fraud in reporting of sales tax. Just ask a state tax auditor. I know two state auditors and they have told me that is were there is a lot of under reporting. 

As for services he doesnt receive does he really not receive any benefits? My son goes to a private school and yet I support the public school system. Do I receive any benefit from supporting the public school system? Yes I do. I live in a society that educates the masses and the society is more productive and it better because of it. I can go on but I think the above illustrates even though someone may not receive a direct benefit there are indirect benefits that are hard to measure.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

http://www.theonion.com/wdyt/index.php?issue=4110

"We tried an income-based tax for nearly a century and look what it brought us: greater economic stability and government accountability. Clearly, we must explore other options."


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

>...government accountability

Surely you jest.


>...greater economic stability 

I would agree we have had relative economic stability since the introduction of the income tax, but it was not caused by the tax. Correlation does not mean causation. In fact I would argue that the economic growth and stability occurred not because of the income tax, but directly in spite of it.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Again, the larger issue is how the money is spent, not just how it is collected.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

>>...government accountability

Surely you jest.>>

It would be interesting to see a comparison of our federal governments "accountability" pre- and post-income tax. I have no idea how anyone would measure that, though. 

<<Again, the larger issue is how the money is spent, not just how it is collected.>>

Which is why I sleep soundly at night, knowing that the party of "fiscal discipline" is in power.


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## moposcar (Apr 5, 2002)

> <<Again, the larger issue is how the money is spent, not just how it is collected.>>
> 
> Which is why I sleep soundly at night, knowing that the party of "fiscal discipline" is in power.


Ummm...the current party in power is not very "fiscally disciplined"....words may be one thing, but actions speak a lot different. I do believe our national debt has skyrocketed here recently.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

While I usually vote Republican, and did in the last election, I would not call the Republicans the party of fiscal responsibility, just the party of less fiscal irresponsibility.

While I don't agree with everything they espouse, I think the party of fiscal responsibility would probably be the Libertarian Party.

BubbaBob


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## Darrel Wright (Jun 30, 2004)

Bubba,

I think your conceptions of the options within the legal profession are amazingly restricted and reflect more what I see on TV than what I hear from other lawyer friends. 90% of law is simply resolving disputes between disagreeing parties, and this covers so many facets of life and the economy that it is practically limitless. One friend is an arbitrator for employment disputes and hardly ever even goes to court. Another makes most of his living defending owners from having their property compromised by illegal development. Companies come in and spend huge amounts of money against his clients and try to intimidate them, and often he wins. He makes less than six figures, but he is a happy dude, enjoys his fights, and believes in what he does.

"I base this on Linders telling me HR25 would TOTALLY do away with the IRS"

So you are an ex-lawyer who hates lawyers and an overall-wearing farmer who believes whatever politicians say? You are indeed a rare fellow, Bubba. But why would it be any easier to enforce a sales tax than it is an income tax? I guarantee you would need another massive bureaucracy to enforce sales tax. Frankly I think it would be harder, as sales records are much easier to falsify than employment records, and there are probably 10,000% more transactions to monitor. My own view is that there is a kind of conservation of energy rule when it comes to getting money out of people. If you want your services, you are going to have to pay for them, and if you have to collect money for that purpose, that is going to take an amount of energy proportionate to the amount you collect. There will be a huge incentive to find ways to cheat on a sales tax if it goes up to what you are suggesting.

I'm not against it though, depending on what the exempted products were, it probably could sit easier on the middle class and working class. By the way, I would say that the rich do enjoy the protections offered by society much more than do the poor in direct proportion to the greater amount of propoerty that they possess. But this whole argument has already been hashed out in tailgater.

Would you have a sales tax on real-estate?


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

It is getting harder and harder to tell the difference between the Rs and the Ds.

>I think the party of fiscal responsibility would probably be the Libertarian Party.

As would the Constitution Party although they are a bit more obscure.

http://www.constitutionparty.com/


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

"It is getting harder and harder to tell the difference between the Rs and the Ds."

Let alone the BS.........


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<<So you are an ex-lawyer who hates lawyers and an overall-wearing farmer who believes whatever politicians say?>>

No...I am a person who chooses his friends wisely (I hope) and consider John a friend as well as a legislator, and I believe what my friend tells me.

Actually, your description using "politician" is, in a nutshell, what I believe to be a prime problem with our government as it is currently constituted...too many politicians and too few legeslators, or statesmen, if you wish.

<<Are my wife's uniforms necessary? Is a car? Who gets to decide if I need a 2-door Hyundai or a 4-door Chrysler? Or if I "need" a truck to haul around beehives and farm produce? Is a $30,000 bass boat a "necessity"? It is to the likes of Bill Dance, Roland Martin, etc. And what about housing -- is that taxed as well? So who gets to decide how many square feet are "appropriate" for my family.>>

Re-read my post. Under HR25, YOU decide what you consider necessary, the government allows a total dollar figure to exempt for necessities of life.

<<As to the CEO of Widget Corp., he has more to lose than the guy making 20k, and I can't believe I'm saying this, he should pay for the protection he gets. It's his choice to earn 2 million -- if he doesn't want the responsibility, let him take a pay cut!>>

Why should he pay more for the same services as one who is not rich? He is provided the same roads as a guy on minimum wage, the same police protection, the same national defense...why should he pay more? If you make 100K a year, and I make 10K a year, should McDonalds charge you 35.50 for a Big Mac while it charges me 3.55? We got the same thing...why should you pay more?

<<Or better yet -- how about a true flat tax? Every adult male or female, regardless of income, pays $10,000 a year for the privilege of living in the U.S.>>

It's not as good as the national sales tax, in my opinion, but I wouldn't have a problem with that.

<<He also spends a much smaller percentage of his income than the middle class. What he does not spend is not taxed and can earn more wealth.>>

So?

<<My son goes to a private school and yet I support the public school system. Do I receive any benefit from supporting the public school system?>>

You are talking about state tax systems which support public schools, and vary greatly from state to state. This is about national taxes. Apples to oranges.

<<I'm not against it though, depending on what the exempted products were>>

There are NO exempted products. There is an exempted dollar figure for the purchase of basic necessities, but you don't have to buy store brand rather than brand name, hamburger rather than steak.

<<But why would it be any easier to enforce a sales tax than it is an income tax? I guarantee you would need another massive bureaucracy to enforce sales tax. Frankly I think it would be harder, as sales records are much easier to falsify than employment records, and there are probably 10,000% more transactions to monitor.>>

I would agree except for one thing...human nature. I believe in the inherent goodness of man, and feel that a LOT of tax avoidance is a direct result of individuals getting screwed, either by unfair tax application, or by a government that spends money taken at the point of a gun on things the government has no business spending our money on. As an example I have no problem paying for interstate infrastructure, but I resent the hell out of being forced to support the National Endowment for the Arts endowment for the likes of the work known as "Piss Christ". Would some people still cheat? Sure, but not as many as you would think, I'll bet. Also, remember, while some would cheat, it would draw in taxes from many who don't pay taxes now (see my example of the drug dealer, above).

Is the National Retail Sales Tax perfect? Nope...it's made by imperfect man and thus imperfect...but it is better than any alternative I have seen, and by FAR better than the current situation.

BubbaBob


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

Bruce, which BS?

BubbaBob


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## hobbyfarm (Feb 18, 2005)

dcross - you must look like a vampire by now. Sleep depravation is a serious health problem!

magnet - How do I benefit from a high school graduate who can't even read the "push-me" keys on the register at McD's? And counts out 8 dimes for the change when the register says $1.80 for the change amount? (And, yes, the register had plenty of nickels, dimes, and quarters.)

Darrel - <<it probably could sit easier on the middle class and working class>>

I'm glad to know the middle class doesn't have to work!









Bubba - I think you missed my point. How is the "total dollar figure" determined? One size fits all?

And here's a question for your friend. I'm currently living on the income from past years that was heavily taxed. Now you switch from an income tax to a sales tax. You're going to tax me all over again when I spend it?

Cheating? Simple solution -- require all transactions to be made at a sales terminal and tie all terminals into a National Transaction Tracking System (NOT running Winxx). Just think of all the programmers that would put to work. Although, they'd probably all be in India or Romania or Botswana.

The whole point is: There never has been, and never will be, a "fair and equitable" tax. People are too diverse to be unilaterally quantified. No matter what "plan" is devised, it will be "unfair" to some. It's popularity will be determined by the power of the group affected the most.

Finally, I absolutely agree with Bubba. There are far, far, too many career politicians, and too few legislators. I don't think congress even has a concept of "statesman" anymore.

Kevin


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<<Bubba - I think you missed my point. How is the "total dollar figure" determined? One size fits all?>>

Yes, one size fits all regarding "necessities" of life. It takes no more or less to feed a wealthy family of four than a poor family of four when you are talking basic necessities. Anything over that...prime rib instead of hamburger, is luxury choices, not necessity. Necessities would be tax free...anything over that...wants rather than needs...would be taxed.

<<I'm currently living on the income from past years that was heavily taxed. Now you switch from an income tax to a sales tax. You're going to tax me all over again when I spend it?>>

That is addressed, fairly, in HR25, but it's been a while since I read it and I don't remember the methodology. Go to www.fairtax.org and you can find out that, and all the other details.

BubbaBob


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

The entire quote, along with who said it, so we know the intelligence level of the source. From theonion.com, referring to the national sales tax:

"We tried an income-based tax for nearly a century and look what it brought us: greater economic stability and government accountability. Clearly, we must explore other options." Quote from Adrian Sears, a short order cook. Now THERE is a knowledgeable source.

BubbaBob


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## Knoefler (Jan 20, 2005)

I think a salestax is much simpler there will always be corruption look at all the loopholes now with what we have. Everone pays there gas tax and I have not heard of much fraud there.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

Knoefler...well, not everyone...some of us make our own diesel...LOL

BubbaBob


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Folks, the Onion is a farcical newspaper. Well the PAPER is real, but it's comedy.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)




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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

Fellows;
I feel sure that the poster was correct who said economics, not hostility from Mann Lake, caused Cargill to drop its "honey substitute". 

The stuff originated in India, I believe. I saw an advertisement for bulk sales several years ago. It had to be a penny-ante thing for Cargill and not worth fooling with. 
Ox


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

> Everyone pays their gas tax and I have not heard of much fraud there.


There are fewer people selling gas and there is not as much chance of fraud. Because fuel and cigarettes are heavily taxed and have only a few distributors, they are watched by the taxing authorities a lot closer than other items. I know this from experience because I have been involved with tax audits for both products. But when there is fraud it is really big dollars.



> <<My son goes to a private school and yet I support the public school system. Do I receive any benefit from supporting the public school system?>>
> 
> You are talking about state tax systems which support public schools, and vary greatly from state to state. This is about national taxes. Apples to oranges.


As I said that was an example. Here is another one. A person who drives a car and never leaves the city that he lives in pays a federal excise tax that helps supports and builds the interstate highway system. Does he not receive any benefit by paying this tax even though he does not use any highways that might have received funding from this tax? Yes he does. His groceries, and everything he purchases is cheaper because we have a modern highway system.

There are a lot of hidden and indirect benifits to many taxes.



> The entire quote, along with who said it, so we know the intelligence level of the source. From theonion.com, referring to the national sales tax:
> 
> "We tried an income-based tax for nearly a century and look what it brought us: greater economic stability and government accountability. Clearly, we must explore other options." Quote from Adrian Sears, a short order cook. Now THERE is a knowledgeable source.
> 
> BubbaBob


BubbaBob just because someone is a short order cook doesnt make him a moron. Mensa has members that are truck drives. You are starting to sound like an elitist.



> magnet - How do I benefit from a high school graduate who can't even read the "push-me" keys on the register at McD's? And counts out 8 dimes for the change when the register says $1.80 for the change amount? (And, yes, the register had plenty of nickels, dimes, and quarters.)


Not everyone who works at McD's has graduated from high school, and they also employ the mentally disable.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<<As I said that was an example. Here is another one. A person who drives a car and never leaves the city that he lives in pays a federal excise tax that helps supports and builds the interstate highway system. Does he not receive any benefit by paying this tax even though he does not use any highways that might have received funding from this tax? Yes he does. His groceries, and everything he purchases is cheaper because we have a modern highway system.>>

Thanks for making my point for me.

We all do benefit fromthings like the interstate system, and under the present system of highway use taxes, the fellow you speak of pays little. People who live in NYC and rely entirely on the subway system and buses presently pay NO highway taxes directly, the tax burden of trucking companies being passed along to the companies producing the food that is shipped, who pass that cost on to the consumer, who pays all of those taxes through higher prices on the goods bought. He therefore doesn't get the tax exemption on necessities of life like he would with HR25. The consumers cost of goods will drop for all purchases because of lowering of costs of production of goods by companies when their tax burden goes away, and the consumer's cost goes even lower on the first dollars spent on necessities.

<< The entire quote, along with who said it, so we know the intelligence level of the source. From theonion.com, referring to the national sales tax..

"We tried an income-based tax for nearly a century and look what it brought us: greater economic stability and government accountability. Clearly, we must explore other options." Quote from Adrian Sears, a short order cook. Now THERE is a knowledgeable source.

BubbaBob 

BubbaBob just because someone is a short order cook doesnt make him a moron. Mensa has members that are truck drives. You are starting to sound like an elitist.>>

Elitist, no, but I do use common sense. If I want medical advice I go to a doctor. There are probably some garbage men that know the PDR (Physician's Desk Reference. a pharmacology reference) inside out, but I'd probably be better served by relying on a doctor or pharmacist for pharmacological advice.

I know personally there are truck drivers that have a fairly extensive knowledge of the law, but I think I'd be better served getting my legal advice in a law office rather than at the fuel island at a truck stop.

And finally, I don't think short order cooks are the most reliable source for opinions on economic theory or what works and what doesn't in a capitalistic economy...or any economy for that matter.

<< quote:magnet - How do I benefit from a high school graduate who can't even read the "push-me" keys on the register at McD's? And counts out 8 dimes for the change when the register says $1.80 for the change amount? And, yes, the register had plenty of nickels, dimes, and quarters.

<<Not everyone who works at McD's has graduated from high school, and they also employ the mentally disable.>>

The education system used to produce folks that could make change in grades far earlier than the grades you are usually in by the time you are working for Mickey D's. Also, while McD's does employ many of the mentally handicapped, as does Wally World, neither puts them behind a cash register where the reason for an inability to make change stems from the handicap.

Also, since you think so highly of our public education system, why is your child in private school? THAT is elitism...much like our legislators that will not allow for school vouchers for the poor so their children can have the same educational benefits the politicans give their children because they can afford to.

BubbaBob


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

> why is your child in private school?


My son went to public school until they tested him. His IQ is two and a half standard deviations above average. That puts him near Mensa levels. The Tulsa public school system does not have a program for children this gifted and this particular private school does.

As for vouchers I am against them unless they pay 100 percent of the tuition. A partial voucher does not help send a poor kid to private school.

As for our short order cook friend your post sounds like a sneer and that is elitist.

Well that's all for this thread. It is just going around in circles.


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