# Most efficient way to expand? Want more bees AND honey....



## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

unless you have bad luck its very possible to get a nuc from each hive and a medium honey crop. feed them for build up and split with a new queen. they should rebound quick with less desire to swarm. good luck


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

when you do a split leave the majority of the hive with the old box and the queen in the new box. you'll probably get several frames with queen cells on them. some frames will probably have multiple. put one frame in a nuc with honey and pollen. With any luck in a month you'll have a nuc with a laying queen. you can easily go from 2 to 8 this year.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> you can easily go from 2 to 8 this year.


Not while also harvesting a crop of honey.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> Not while also harvesting a crop of honey.


Respectfully disagree. If op is ok with feeding he can harvest spring flow then split. Even one 50/50 split can get enough cells for that many nucs


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

some beekeeping is best done on paper. lol


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## giarc18 (Mar 25, 2015)

I still consider myself a newbee, so I have about as much experience as you , but Read up on a "cut down" split.
Last year was my first full year with bees. I did a "cut down" split on my (1) overwintered hive and got about 120lbs of honey. A majority of the honey was from the original hive , but the second hive did produce some "harvestable" honey. I even left a full super on the second hive because when I put the "wet" super back on the hive for the bees to clean up, they started filling it back up! 
I don't know if it was an exceptional year for honey or not, or if this is a common type of split, but it worked for me. Both hives were booming going into fall. And they both are looking good so far this spring.
I now have 2 hives and plan on doing the same to those this spring.
I'm not out of the woods yet though.
Still waiting to see pollen coming in.

i would also like to hear some opinions on this type of split from some experienced beeks.
Thanks and good luck,
G.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Don't split your best hive, let it be your honey producer. 

Remove the queen by splitting a nuc off the worst hive. In 10 days, go through the queenless hive you left in place, and see how many frames have queen cells on them. Split it all up into nucs so that each nuc has a frame with at least one queen cell, dividing up the rest of the frames into each nuc for equal balance of resources. Destroy all the smallest queen cells, leaving just 1 or 2 of the nicest looking in each nuc. 

If you don't mind purchasing queens, then leave the queen in place with 4 frames in the weakest hive, filling in with frames of foundation. Make up 4 nucs of the remaining frames and give each a purchased queen. Each nuc you make up gets a frame of foundation. Build all nucs up to winter strength through the year. This way, you get six hives going into winter, and a honey crop from the strongest hive... If you feel brave, then after purchasing the queens and growing all five nucs into at least one box, then spit off a couple more nucs between them all and get everyone built up for winter. This way, you get your eight hives into winter this year, and honey from the strongest hive.

All of the above is assuming you have 2 story 10 frame deep boxes on your current 2 hives.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

agreed, a cut down split is a good option for '71.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm

(about half way down the page)


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> Not while also harvesting a crop of honey.



speak for yourself, I did last yr and harvested 9 gal......but it was an amazing yr flow wise. Save 1 for honey production, Split the queen off the second and bust the hive up with the emergency cells into 3 nucs. once you have mated queens randomly rob a frame out of ready to emerge brood an drop these bee bombs into the nucs so they build up quicker. about July split all the hives again, this will give you 10 total. If you need to combine your weakest ones before winter hits.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

Following. I have the same goal.


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## Diamond Hunter (Jan 17, 2016)

So,when you split a hive,do you always have to take the queen away a couple miles?and for how long?


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

When will the splitting miles apart end?


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Probably when individuality and common sense does!
Moving a hive miles away is neither right nor wrong. It all depends on ones goals. A split moved miles away will retain it's field bees. A split left in the same apiary will loose most of it's field bees to the parent hive unless further manipulation is done. Which can forestall growth. When Making splits to increase hive numbers particularly in northern latitudes where the growing season is shortened. Retaining the field force can significantly increase ones overwintering success rate. 
It does not matter weather you move the hive with the queen or the one without. 3 days is the minimum, 7 days better, After 21 day as a general rule you have pretty much converted the full field force.


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## Diamond Hunter (Jan 17, 2016)

Thanks Tenbears,Im just here to learn,not to make others feel dumb. What is the further manipulation you have to do so you don't move the hive miles away?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

In my splits, I move the original queen and remaining boxes to a new location just 10 to 30 feet away, and face the entrance 90 to 180 degrees away from the original orientation. The new split (queenless) goes to the old location. The field force equalizes between the two boxes, and the old queen replaces the missing bees in 2-3 weeks. The new split requires 28 days or so to create an emergency queen, 10-12 days to accept a ripe cell, or 4-5 days to accept an introduced queen.

This process can be done with nuc-sized boxes as well as cut-down full size boxes, but the equalization of foragers has the capacity to overwhelm the nuc. This is okay for starting strong hives with cells or caged queens, but an emergency queen approach has the issue of backfiling the small box with under-employed field bees. Lots of handholding on the nuc to keep it from plugging out with honey in the month of raising and mating a new queen.

Generating smaller nucs during the spring build-up phase doesn't materially affect the honey harvest, if cells or caged queens are used. A nuc can be cobbled together with 2 frames of brood, 1 pollen and 2 open nectar. Two frames of brood are about 48-72 hours of Queen production during the build up peak. Pulling 3 days of eggs off a thrifty hive is scarcely noticeable when there are 6-10 sheets of brood comb ready to burst.

In the big picture -- the not inconsiderable risk of a swarm -- is balanced by the act of the cut down split (in controlling the swarm, and the loss of the field force) which exchanges the minor loss of some brood to a nuc against the larger loss of bees flying into the trees.

The emergency queen approach is more of an impact, as the brood in the hive ages out over the nearly 2 month period before the first fresh cohort hatches. Practically, the emergency queen splits need continuing supplementation with frames of brood over this slack period --- and that represents a continuing drag on the donor colonies. 

One can make the split with side-by-side boxes -- and most times this is successful. In some percentage, the split abandons the brood and returns to the mother hive --- so I avoid that due the higher failure compared to the 10 -30 foot move. Side--by-side works with cells if the nuc is caged up for 24 hours -- the hive reorganizes inside the cage, and doesn't abandon the frames when released. 

Overall -- a caged and mated queen into your nuc is the easiest method of increase -- relatively small impact to the parent hives, and cost is low ($20-25). A ripe cell (unhatched 11-13 day queen pupa) into a nuc is lower cost than a mated queen, but mating return is not 100% -- leading to development losses, and is a more expert technique. The emergency cell splits have higher impacts and much longer timelines, but have much "idiot proofing" built-in. My cut-down splits are management decisions due to run-away build up -- I am trying to slow the hive down to escape the swarm run-away. Cut down splits are useful in taking the piss-and-vinegar out of mean bees -- a multi-box skyscraper can be unmanageable when the bees are defensive -- but those same bees are kittens when "re-homed" into smaller colonies.

The downside of moving the old hive to a new location is manhandling a couple hundred pound monster filled with keyed up bees. Sometimes a handtruck wheels the hive easy, and sometimes setting a new bottom board and restacking the boxes individually is easier. Restacking causes instant equalization, as you have a cloud of bees flying "home". This is good if you are trying to judge how large a new stack to leave with the cut-down. If you restack, wear full protection.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

nice informative post there jwc. preventing the swarm by splitting and keeping colonies in 'expansion' mode should facilitate the building up of more and more drawn comb, which will make it easier going forward with regard to swarm prevention and increasing honey yields.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

This all is not hard. First you want some honey crop. So, do not do the split until the spring crop is in the hive. Then take two frames of open and sealed brood from your weakest hive and put in a nuc and add a purchased queen. Also add two frames of foundation of course. Take two more frames of open and sealed brood and put in a second nuc and add a purchased mated queen. Give both a frame that has some honey in it. You will be doing this in late June in Ok I would think. Maybe mid June? Now feed both those nucs all the 1:1 sugar water they will take until they have at least ten drawn combs and better yet 15.

At the same time consider why your weakest hive is weak. Did you treat for mites? If not it is probably dying from mite associated viruses. You need to kill those mites, which you should have killed back in March, in all your hives. Do not even dream for an instant you do not have mites. Every hive has mites. If it is mite associated viruses it will take a couple of months before the virus problem is pretty much gone after you kill the mites. Or, if you think the hive is weak because the queen is bad buy a new queen and replace the old one. There is zero point in ever breeding from a poor queen. She has bad genetics and if you breed from her all you do is get more queens with bad genetics. You would not try and use a ****er spaniel for a **** dog would you? Nope, you need **** dog genetics. Same with any livestock including bees. You always need good genetics to start with.

I do not think you get a very strong fall flow in OK. So, maybe your best hive might give some excess in the fall. But it is unlikely that you will get excess from either the weak hive or the nucs.

I have started nucs in Ohio as late as July 1 with only a single frame of brood and honey and a laying queen and built them up to over winter strength with no problem. If I start the nuc June 1 with a single frame I may get a small fall crop. But that is asking a lot. That is a lot of comb for them to draw. And I need a decent fall flow of golden rod which only happens every other year. If you want them to build faster giving them a comb of sealed brood and the bees on those frames or even two frames in mid July really helps. I have started a nuc with five drawn frames including two frames of sealed brood, enough bees to cover three frames really well and a laying queen as late as Aug 25 and fed all the 2:1 they would take and gotten them thru the winter just fine. Drawn comb really helps a lot.

Likely something will happen to at least one of those hives or nucs over winter so next spring you will be at three but also have a bunch of drawn comb you can use to make nucs. So, it will be easier to go from three to six next year than it is to go from two to four this year. All the above assumes your two current hives have 20 deep frames or the equivalent drawn. If they are not that strong right now forget about any spring honey crop as it is not very likely. It takes a lot of time and bees and sugar to draw comb. And, if you do not have that many drawn frames ask what you did wrong last year that held them back and correct the problem.

Dick


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Last year I did two walkaway splits on two colonies that belonged to someone else. They started with two packages. I supplied three frames of drawn comb to each package and did the walkaway splits in July. (swarm prevention attempt) 

Those 4 colonies swarmed 5 times and I caught all 5. One was a cutout. The cutout was high, in a masonry wall, and we charged $1400 to do that job. Bees have been really good to me.

This means 2 packages turned into 9 in just one summer. Sure I fed a lot of sugar because the swarms were in September and I found that cutout in October. All of them survived the winter but one. 

This is not normal but it can happen if you're willing to work hard and babysit them like they're your children.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Richard Cryberg said:


> ...do not do the split until the spring crop is in the hive.


this can be somewhat area specific. down here, if you do not take effective swarm prevention measures, (meaning having plenty of drawn comb for checkerboarding or aggressively rotating in foundationless frames), the colony will swarm and perhaps afterswarm before putting up a spring crop. this typically means little to no honey harvest, the loss of an opportunity to make increase, and the loss of an opportunity to get more comb drawn. it's a real dilemma for beeks expanding through their first seasons.

'71, the best advice for you would be from someone with experience in your area, particularly if they are working with the same or similar stock of bee as you are.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Over here it is still rainy and not
warm enough to raise some queens. 
By the time it is warm enough the flow
is just about over. To get the honey 
and a potential mated queen, I did something
different this year. I split a strong hive
into a nuc to allow the foragers to collect
some honey. And then put a queen cell in to
make a new queen. The foragers fill up the
honey frames while the virgin is waiting to
be mated. Now I have both a new queen and
some honey. The original hive still growing
not affected by the split. Maybe I should do a combine and
made the split hive into a nuc with the old queen instead.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Diamond Hunter said:


> Thanks Tenbears,Im just here to learn,not to make others feel dumb. What is the further manipulation you have to do so you don't move the hive miles away?


You may have to monitor the split more closely if left within the home apiary. If you notice the foragers are diminished which Most often you do, you can add a frame of ready to emerge brood, and one with pollen on it. This add numbers to the hive and the pollen provides food for young brood allowing the queen to produce more prolifically. You can also exchange the location of the parent hive with the split. In this case the returning field bees return to the nuc. Doing so is not without it problems Because it takes field forces away from the strong hive which you are trying to get the surplus honey from. The large hive is usually more difficult to handle. Your geographical location affords you more latitude in terms of time, so a somewhat slower developing split will not be as problematic for you as it would be for those further north.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm trying a snelgrove board this year. Short term splitting, some queen raising, then gradual recombining. A raised queen can be used to populate a nuc box with a few bees to build up. Queens cells can be used to start numerous nucs if desired.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

For the last 4 years I don't move my hives on a split.
I just compensate it by making a stronger nuc with more
bees added. When the foragers fly back to the parent hive
then there are enough bees in the nuc hive. The stronger
nuc hive will fill up the frames with honey on a flow.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Diamond Hunter said:


> Thanks Tenbears,Im just here to learn,not to make others feel dumb. What is the further manipulation you have to do so you don't move the hive miles away?


I was not trying to make anybody feel dumb. I'm sure you were told or read that you have to split miles apart. I have heard just about every newb say it. And they just didn't come up with it on their own. It's just one of those things, you get tired of hearing when it's not true. AndTenbears, I'm also not saying there isnt a management technique to it, just people think it just can't be done unless they have land miles apart.


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