# Newbees



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I agree. But there seems to be a group who think that top bar hives are more complicated or more difficult. I don't find that to be true.


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## Shapleigh's Bees (Mar 8, 2008)

I suppose the group that hasn't tried TBH keeping...


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## Cold Bees (May 18, 2007)

*I think its more the lack of local experience -So I'll try to be the local guinea*

Hey,

Beekeeping is fun,and I would dread the thought of taboo subjects in our pleasant hobby. I really want to move on to TBH, and I've collected my thoughts on a best attitude to get started with

I do not think the TBH is taboo in any way. The web is flooded with experiences in TBH and those experiences inevitably start with "My first TBH". Meanwhile, I have met 7th generation Longstroth equipment beekeepers. WHo would feel more confident in giving advice to a novice? Just the thought, "Well, if I am not available to help this novice out, he's in trouble, since I doubt there are other's around to help..."

In the best of worlds, I would have been able to start out in beekeeping last year with a TBH, which, I suspect, is a much more fun and less complicated way to keep a hive or two. 

BUT, in my current world, though it ain't perfect, in beekeeping support, in sure is close. There was a lot to be gained by just following typical practices. For one thing, that meant that my local mentors from the local beekeeping group were able to come to my aid at any point. 

In addition, the wonderful world of web based advice, was wide open to me too, as a great place for second opinions. One thing about reading advice and all that, though, is that there is some kind of natural human preference for "live", meaning talking directly with your mentors, in person. Similarly, we prefer live, hands on, demos in place of photos and web film clips. This is very true when starting out at something, less so as one feels more comfortable

In my locality, there are well established, traditional, Longstroth practices, and it helps when starting out to follow typical guidelines. Even if the guidance turns out to be suspect in the end, there is a strong comfort in learning to so something sore or less like everyone else does it. Deeps versus supers for brood nest and ease of handling, natural foundation versus everything else, cell size, spring deep rotation, sugar-water ratios, south facing or west facing entrances, how to install the queen, if you use the queeen cage, whether to hang it or lay it flat, winter wraps, etc. Endless, yet, you feel comfortable because there is a flood of guidance, rather than be in the dark on your own!


My unique situational issues, bear country, high altitude, shorter season, etc, called for some adjustments and sharing local's experience. After this one bear attack, I got off my butt and put up an electric fence. I had several to look at first, just a short drive around me.

I work as a computer geek, and have to use the web a lot for keeping up with my craft, tutorials, advice boards, you name it. I have gotten pretty good at learning from the (quickly) written word, but I benefit the most, and the quickest, by walking over to the office of another person who already has experience with whatever problem I am working on.

So, with all that said, I am chomping at the bit to build a TBH, catch a swarm to put in it, and have some fun. Now that I've gotten a year's worth of experience in beekeeping, I am not as completely out of my water as I imagine I would have been starting out cold.

I don't expect to find local expertise too close to home. In Boulder (100 miles), there is an active TBH community, so I am not dead in the water, but at this point, I tend to believe that the best advice I'll get is form Michael Bush and company, here on BeeSource and some of the other boards and blogs.

SO, with all that said, what should I build first? I am going to put my thoughts into another post, since I'm switching topics.


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## Cold Bees (May 18, 2007)

*OK, what to build first, any and all comments appreciated?*

So,

In an earlier post, I stated my case that TBHs are not encouraged because of lack of local experience and expertise, rather than anything bad.

Here's what I've read that encourages me, from the wealth of sites and posts on the topic:

0) The bees will handle comb sizes on their own, and I'll get the best of the small cell argument handed to me for free.
1) Easier to build - especially for a klutz like me!
2) Removing top bars one at a time keeps the rest of the hive in the dark and calm and productive - yeah.
3) I would rather harvest a little bit regularly than wait for a full super, especially out here. Gives me an excuse to visit the hive more regularly than I would my Longs.
4) I'll harvest more wax, for whatever that's worth. Lots of crafty folks out here. Or use it for home made foundation one day, etc.
5) I'll 'extract' honey without industrial equipment to store around the house. 
6) I can make the whole thing out of untreated, locally harvested and manufactured, air-cured lumber, I can be an all local enterprise. yes, I need to watch out for wood shrinking, cracking and drying out, etc.
7) I can be pretty "organic", meaning that I can hope that natural small cell will keep me out of the "better beekeeping through chemistry" camp.
8) I can have a place to raise captured swarms pretty easily in terms of excess space in the TBH by judiciously using follower boards.
9) I can document this effort to help out the next guy. 
10) I can imagine getting a machinist friend of ours who is also wildly into organic stuff to design and build a tangential (Sweinty) style extractor that works really well with TBHs, and become rich and famous selling that (bit over the top, that one)
11) Maybe a realistic pollen trap can be easily built...
12) Nice place to try to learn to raise queens, make splits, that sort of grow your beeyard thing.
13) Aesthetically appealing structure, without costing a fortune, even though it is housed behind a rather intimidating electric-fence enclosure.


I've compared 2 designs, the biobees PDF, and the bee-wrangler site, bwrangler.com. The biobees TBH appeals to me because I do not have to do any ripping of lumber, and so I can get away with my circular saw and electric drill as my only power tools. The bee-wrangler larger volume TBH appeals because if local guidance is correct, the bees need a whole lot of honey and pollen to make it through the winter, which is commonly stated as 2 deeps full, or about 120 pounds, of brood, pollen and sugar syrup/nectar/honey by the end of the season.

Bottom side entrance, bottom end entrance, drill holes that can be plugged with wine corks, what say you?

Follower boards seem useful to get the bees to build out one area before moving on to more bars. Also, as dividers for future experiments like breeding, etc.

If I get this bad boy going, when would I ever feel comfortable taking out any honey comb? Do i leave it all alone season one, as per my guidance for the Long hive?

Is there value in making the hive the right size for existing frames, deeps or medium super frames? 

I do not plan on putting supers over them, but given the way honey flows can be up here, some years the rains will cause supper massive flows, and something like that might be in order?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I suppose the group that hasn't tried TBH keeping...

I believe that is an accurate statement.

>Is there value in making the hive the right size for existing frames, deeps or medium super frames? 

If you intend to have other hives that are standard frames, definitely. If you want to buy a nuc, yes. Otherwise, there probably is no advantage.

My opinions on most of your other questions should be covered here:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm


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## Cold Bees (May 18, 2007)

*Ah, another look at yours!*

Yep,

I like it ALOT, given my lack of skill/equipment! 

Just skipped right over your plans for some reason, even though I used your site as the launching point for getting to the other sites I looked at. Too excited by the Google Sketchup plans to realize that these things are supposed to be much easier than one needs a 3D CAD program! Looks to be a perfect weekend / evening project. I'll build one like that, using whatever is driest at the lumber yard. 

So, why the 2 different top bar widths, the triangles look tricky to cut by hand, so I can use the neighbor's table saw, I guess. Any guidance on those?

Where do you like to put the entrance? What kind of entrance? 

So the triangle is nailed, glued on, do you apply wax or foundation strips at all, or do the bees figure that out themselves? Also, do the triangles come to a point, or this the tip a blunt edge, say 1/4 " wide? My eyes are too weak to see from the pictures.

The top, well, I can still make a fancy peaked roof, and put the moulding strips around the hive that fit over where the legs would be, which I can fart around with later.

Thanks!


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## Hanover Honey (Mar 26, 2008)

I have been keeping bees in Lang egipment for several years now and just built Bush style KTBH this winter to add to my bee yard. Simple does not do this design justice! Monkeys could build this hive while drinking bourbon.
Mr. Bush can explain his use of two size top bars and while I don't disagree, I built mine all one size ( 1 3/8") for ease of building and manipulating.
As for entrance, I drilled 3/4" holes in the front that can be pluged to control the opening. I Also put some right down to the bottom board so the don't have to drag dead bees up and out. This might be my own silly thing but after watching bee removal in my obsevertion hive, it looked like a lot of work and it makes me happy to have the low entrance holes.

Good Luck


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So, why the 2 different top bar widths, the triangles look tricky to cut by hand, so I can use the neighbor's table saw, I guess. Any guidance on those?

I did 1 1/2" bars on my first top bar hive. The bees didn't pay much attention to my widths. The started out on the guides but cheated a little on each bar until they were off the bars. Then after they built the brood nest they went wider and built thicker combs. So I decided not to fight them on it and make them the width they wanted. Which was 1 1/4" for the brood and 1 1/2" for the honey.

>Where do you like to put the entrance? What kind of entrance?

My first top bar hive I did a bottom entrance. After fighting the skunks, I closed it off and wen to top entrances. Mine are just a gap at the front bar. No holes to drill.

>So the triangle is nailed, glued on

That's what I did.

> do you apply wax or foundation strips at all

I used not wax at all.

> or do the bees figure that out themselves?

They build them off of the triangle.

> Also, do the triangles come to a point

Yes.

> or this the tip a blunt edge, say 1/4 " wide?

It's a point.

>The top, well, I can still make a fancy peaked roof, and put the moulding strips around the hive that fit over where the legs would be, which I can fart around with later.

If you like.


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## Shapleigh's Bees (Mar 8, 2008)

Michael Bush's KTBH design looked the easiest to build, so that's how I did it. No ripping, no angled cuts. I have one with the MB width bars, and two with 1 3/8 bars.

As for entrances, just pick one that makes sense to you. I liked the holes and corks thing, so I put them on the end. If MB is right, I'll cork them up and go to a top entrance, no big change. If an extra 1/8" makes more honey, I can either make more bars, or put in a spacer.

I guess what I'm saying is it isn't rocket science, pick a body, a bar design, an entrance, a cover and a stand. Much of it is dictated by what you feel comfortable building and your tools. I think a lot of the variation comes in because folks start taking pride in their work and start fiddling around. My covers are domed aluminum and weigh under three pounds, but a plank of plywood would keep the weather out just as well.

I just don't see this as being more complicated than Lang hives.


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## Cold Bees (May 18, 2007)

*OK, I'm in *

OK,

Thanks for the advice and motivation. I'll try to build the MB KTBH, first. Will keep you posted. Nice to have all this expertise out there.

If it's OK with Hanover, I'll lay off the bourbon while using power tools, though he seems to think the bar is set so low that I should be able to.


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## Cold Bees (May 18, 2007)

*TBH building materials*

So,

I went to a couple of the big box indoor lumber yards, and around here, Colorado Springs, the price for #2 board seems best at Lowes, with largest supply on hand to selct straight board from. 

The retail cost of raw materials for a TBH, using Michael Bush's plans and adding in an insulated cover as per the "MyTBH" plans, a simple flat cover with OSB and 2in blue foam with 1 x 3 edges, seems to cost out at about $40, and looks to be easiest to build.

For what it is worth, the 1X12X8' is $9 and is about the best price for that board I can find. Also, for 25 cents they will cut it with a panel cutter to give you 2 1X6X8' for $4.25 each (1st two cuts free), rather than pay 6.25 each.

Wonder what others are paying?


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## Shapleigh's Bees (Mar 8, 2008)

I bought 5 1x12x8's and 2 1x6x8's for about $50 from the local saw mill. It's finished lumber, but Utility grade.

Most of the top bars were "free"; manufactured from scraps around the house.

Next time around I think I'll see if they have a bargain bin of ends and stuff I can root around in.

With housing being off so badly, the lumber prices are bottoming out, but I don't think you're seeing that reflected at the box stores.


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## Cold Bees (May 18, 2007)

*local saw mill lumber*

I'm good friends with the local mill owner here, the boards are mostly pretty green, even the 'aged" ones sell too fast, you have to stack them for 6 months, including a summer here, before the cracking and shrinking stops. No kiln here, so everything air dries. It's a dry climate, but still takes a long time.

I was thinking of stocking up for the future, but for the first prototypes, I would rather use kiln dried stuff. On the other hand, the local mill stuff is untreated, and that would count if you were trying to tout yourself as an organic beekeep.


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## Shapleigh's Bees (Mar 8, 2008)

My folks sell finished lumber, rough sawn, then kiln dried, then planed to dimension. They have 16' boards in most sizes, and all grades, plus ship-lap, T&G, fancy beads, etc. It's a retail store associated with a saw mill.


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## Cold Bees (May 18, 2007)

*TBH construction so far, joining question*

Well,

I started build KTBHs, more or less as per Michael Bush, though I cut out some followers and some other mods.

It took 2 hours to select a few boards at Lowes, and my $9 price for 1X12X8' board was 'utility' grade, which, in this case, was ka-ka grade.

I took 2 hours to pick out a few #2 grade pieces at almost $12.

I bought the lumber and cut the pieces over the weekend. We opted to bevel the long sides, a 25 degree cut, and that dropped off some height. That resulted in lost height, 3/4 of an inch or so. The volume loss from this looks to be the equivalent of a few combs, I think. Since this is a small hive to begin with, I imagine I just lost some future production, but I hope this does not reduce the volume so much as to jeopardize over wintering. 

I don't want to crack the wood when I assemble it, what's the best way to join the long edges? I assume glue and thin nails? I bought deck type screws 1 5/8, for attaching the end pieces, 

I also picked up 1 1/4 in deck screws for the long sides, but I am still afraid that these are too large, and I'll crack the edges if I over torque them.

Also, for the gluing, is their any way to clamp these? I built follower boards, which I can use a frame to assemble them, as per the biobees.com illustrated construction guide.


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## Shapleigh's Bees (Mar 8, 2008)

I ran deck screws with no cracking. No drilling, no glue. Pine is soft stuff, and it's counter-intuitive, but I think less prone to cracking due to fasteners.

If you screw on your end pieces, the square ends should give you good places to clamp.


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## Elsa (Dec 31, 2007)

*"Cheap" hives... mine... not!*

I have given up trying to stick to a budget on what started out as "I'll use the _free _wood and this will be easy!" Wellllllll.... Hmmm... I, of course, had to start with a more complicated plan for my first hives (oh, no... she couldn't do an easy one like MB's first, huh?) and my free wood was (8) 8' 1x6 clear cedar and (6) 6' of the same... so, that means I need to make it all cedar, right? Yeah... of course... 

But the 6" stuff doesn't work for the whole design - so, since I don't have a table saw to rip boards smaller, I need to get some 1x4s... and, while I'm at it, some 1x8s... Oh... and that knotty cedar is soooo pretty... 

And they have to have windows... and they need to be sturdy... so gotta' get a 24"x18" piece of the thickest plexiglas they had a Home Depot, of course (that was only $13 or so) and a cutter (~$6... and all it did was piss me off). Caulking for the windows...

These need to be sturdy! Sturdy = dowels and glue. Had to get a 1/4" dowel "kit". (No major investment there). Hmmm... better get some bar clamps too. $16 each for 2. 

Hmmm... hinges... Gotta' be brass (with cedar? Duh!) and all the framing and spacers... cedar? Yeah... pattern here. Legs. Cedar. Roof... oh, THAT'S "free" too... got lots of cedar shakes out there... so they're free... but I gotta frame it with... cedar! But - I have a bunch of cedar 2"x2"s in my wood pile from a garden project that never left the graph paper stage... sooooo... those are "free", right? They were in my yard and bought for something else a year or so ago, so that = free in my brain. (Ah! Female logic and MacGivering! What a combo!) 

* Sigh *

So, at this point (as I look at the days pass on the calendar and the bee-date nears and the first hive is yet to be completed) I have given up keeping tally of cost.  I'm just collecting the receipts and will figure it out later. I started out with a circular saw, scroll/jig saw (Santa brought that year before last), a vibrating sander, Dremel, cordless drill and a few miscellaneous other things (brain fart) but decided that I "needed" a little table saw. Picked up a little Ryobi cheapie at HD for $99... it sits out of the box but yet un-set-up. Good thing I had to have that, huh? 

The NEXT hives will most certainly be out of something "reasonable" and, perhaps, not the gargantuan (48"X19" looks a LOT bigger than it sounds!) behemoths my first two will be. Wait... the next ones are KTB Nucs... so that doesn't count, huh? 

When I finally have one done I'll post pictures and cost. Good thing I'm "reta'ard", have time and only have to answer to 20,000 occupants! I hope they won't be overly critical. 

~ Elsa

Oh... and I have a confession... I DID blaspheme against the "all cedar" rule. I bought Poplar for the Top Bars. 


_"I never want to be rich... I just want a dollar more than I can ever spend"_


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## Shapleigh's Bees (Mar 8, 2008)

I suppose that's part of the attraction too. You can make the hive "yours" in ways you just can't with off-the-shelf gear.

I have to ask, did it occur to you to buy pine of the proper width and use the free wood to slice into top bars?


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## TheCheatOSX (Sep 25, 2007)

Cold Bees said:


> Also, for the gluing, is their any way to clamp these?


Well... this is how I clamped mine.  Clamp Pic


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## Cold Bees (May 18, 2007)

*Elsa!*



Elsa said:


> ...
> 
> And they have to have windows... and they need to be sturdy... so gotta' get a 24"x18" piece of the thickest plexiglas they had a Home Depot, of course (that was only $13 or so) and a cutter (~$6... and all it did was piss me off). Caulking for the windows...


Well,

And I thought I was WAY over the top beveling the long sides of the MB TBH!

But, after watching some videos by the Backyard Hive folks out of Boulder, the window really does seem practical if you care to put it in. Sounds like a masterpiece.


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## Shapleigh's Bees (Mar 8, 2008)

*Go Polish!*

You aren't even starting to get fancy until you can compete with Wojtek's hives. http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/Wojtekshives2.html 

Look at the bee cover for the window, and consider the hives are like two feet wide at the top...


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## Cold Bees (May 18, 2007)

*Wojtek versus MB TBH*

Yep,

I've already sent Wojtek my praises. I grew up in a Polish / Ukrainian immigrant neighborhood, full of folks with skills like that, simply amazing. And they learned these skills in a time and place without electricity or power tools.

But I am happy enough having put a simple box together and learning a bit about the table saw in the meantime. I loved building the Michael Bush model, a nice first merit badge for the aspiring TBHer.

I'll try putting a couple of TBH swarm traps together next, I want to use swarms for the TBHs.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

My father does both langstroth and top bar hives. He told me that he would not recommend a TBH to a beginner because it is more difficult. I asked why, he said, for example, cutting comb properly.


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## Shapleigh's Bees (Mar 8, 2008)

Of all the fears I have of keeping bees, cutting comb properly is not one of them. If it becomes too difficult for me to master, I'll put in virgin top bars and burn the ones with improperly cut comb still attached. It'll set me back about 10 minutes and the bees back about two hours. I don't know, I've owned a pocket knife since as long as I can remember. 

Most folks who throw stones at TBH have no experience with it whatsoever. For a hobbyist, this is a wonderful, simple way to keep bees and make a little honey. I invite you to build a hive and buy a package and see for yourself.


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## TheCheatOSX (Sep 25, 2007)

The comment may have been a bit over the top Shapleigh's Bees. But I know where you are coming from. One gets tired of constantly having to defend the TBH. This sub forum should be a refuge. The negativity gets to us all sometimes I guess. Just got to stay positive.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

What you have to put up with here is nothing compared to the level of heckling and stupidity we have to put up with on the British Beekeepers' Association forum - http://www.britishbee.org.uk/forum/index.php 
After a good deal of campaigning, they reluctantly set up a forum called 'alternative beekeeping' (i.e. anything that doesn't involve straight-down-the-line framed - preferably British National - boxes - not that we're calling you cranks or anything) so they can marginalize TBHers in case they cause trouble and distract beginners from the orthodoxy.

By and large - and with a few exceptions - I find you guys on the North American continent far more open-minded and willing to consider new ideas than the Brits.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>By and large - and with a few exceptions - I find you guys on the North American continent far more open-minded and willing to consider new ideas than the Brits.

Not all of us...


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## Elsa (Dec 31, 2007)

Shapleigh's Bees said:


> I have to ask, did it occur to you to buy pine of the proper width and use the free wood to slice into top bars?


Yeah... I thought about how much easier it would be to just go buy 1"x whatever pine... but cedar is soooooo pretty!! 

Elsa


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## Elsa (Dec 31, 2007)

*Clamps!*



TheCheatOSX said:


> Well... this is how I clamped mine.


Chris... you don't have enough clamps, Dude.


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## TheCheatOSX (Sep 25, 2007)

It is a universal truth that you can NEVER have enough clamps.


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## Cold Bees (May 18, 2007)

*Top bar arrangements*

So,

I made the 2 different sizes of top bars, as per Michael Bush's advice, which is also done by the backyard beekeeper people out of Boulder, though in slightly different widths.

When I get started with the bees in this hive, it occurred to me to ask if all the 1 1/2 top bars go on first, followed by the 1 1/4 bars, do they ever get mixed? I cannot imagine the bees making 16 brood combs first....


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## Hanover Honey (Mar 26, 2008)

1 1/4 first for brood
1 1/2 second for honey


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## Hanover Honey (Mar 26, 2008)

first meaning near the entrance


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## Cold Bees (May 18, 2007)

Hanover Honey said:


> first meaning near the entrance


THANKS for that correction,

so all in order, all the 1 1/4, followed by all the 1 1/2


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## Shapleigh's Bees (Mar 8, 2008)

Yes, and they do make the brood comb first, they need to make bees in order to make honey.

Entrance, brood bars, honey bars.

Middle side entrance would be half honey bars, brood bars, other half honey bars.


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## Ardilla (Jul 17, 2006)

For what it is worth, our local bee club is about 80% TBH and 20% Langs. This has largely to do with the local classes on beekeeping are TBH classes. They view us Lang. beekeepers with curiousity when we talk about screened bottom boards and such.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Ardilla said:


> For what it is worth, our local bee club is about 80% TBH and 20% Langs.


Wow! The world is changing!


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