# Where is the Best Place to buy frames and foundation



## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I buy mine from a local supplier. I think he gets them from dadant, but I pay 80.00 per 100 deep frames and 200.00 per 25 lbs box of foundation. I think i get about 175 sheets. I pay tax but no shipping. Probably could get better deal from Kelley, if I drove there and bought a truckload.


----------



## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

shamrockkennels said:


> Need to buy a lot of frames and foundation and was wondering where the best place to purchase them.


Depends greatly on what and how you are using! Me, I go with the Mann Lake frames and rite cell foundation as I've found both their frames and foundation to be impeccable quality and crazy cheap along with free shipping.


----------



## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

I don't have much to compare to, but Mann Lake frames are nice. Much nicer than the frames my local shop sells. Price is good and they ship QUICK.


----------



## bdouglas (Dec 18, 2014)

Need more info. Is "a lot" 100 or 10,000 frames? What kind of foundation?


----------



## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

I've ordered frames and foundation (along with lots of other stuff) from Brushy Mountain, Kelley, and Mann Lake. I use Mann Lake because of the really fast shipping and the frames fit together real tight. Nothing wrong with the other two, the free shipping (usually UPS) and being fast is why I mainly use Mann Lake.


----------



## Jmayerl (Apr 25, 2015)

Mann lake


----------



## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

Mann Lake


----------



## shamrockkennels (May 17, 2015)

100-200


----------



## ChrisBex (Jul 24, 2014)

DPBsbees said:


> Mann Lake


Going to go with MannLake on this one.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

http://www.beesource.com/product-reviews/wood-frames/


----------



## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm a small time guy compared to Jim. I'm also a woodworker, and I can tell you that the Mann Lake frames are works of art. I've never gotten a bad frame from them and I've bought hundreds.


----------



## bdouglas (Dec 18, 2014)

You might want to read the product review section on Beesource. There is an evaluation on frame suppliers. I would use Mann Lake since i've never had an issue.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

You can expect usable frames from any supplier. Barry's review does give lots of good information and an unbiased comparison of all the major suppliers. My advice would be after reading it, to then decide what type of foundation you want to use and then spend a little time on the phone getting some price quotes for frames that are compatible with your choice of foundation (grooved or wedge top bars, grooved or split bottom bars) along with foundation prices. I don't know of anyone that sells bad or defective foundation but frame quality does vary considerably and some folks are fussier than others.


----------



## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

http://acornbee.com

Ask for Nick, I'm happy with the way the bees jumped on these


----------



## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

All of my frames have been Mann Lake with RiteCell. I buy the frames already assembled. You may want to consider this if you plan to use RiteCell. On 100 frames, to buy the foundation and unassembled frames, it comes out to $173. Assembled frames with RiteCell for 100 comes out to $200, a difference of $27. I am a professional woodworker (how I make my living) and I could not build 100 frames with glue and nails for $27 or $.27 each!


----------



## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

Mann Lake with Rite Cell foundation. I assemble the frames.


----------



## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

MTN-Bees said:


> Mann Lake with Rite Cell foundation. I assemble the frames.


Same here but I do rub/brush extra wax on the Rite cell


----------



## Marti (Jun 29, 2014)

Mann Lake both standard plastic and also wood with rite cell. Tried Kelly and was not happy.


----------



## Orion7 (Jun 3, 2015)

Mann Lakes had some plastic small cell foundation for wood frames on their ebay store.


----------



## shamrockkennels (May 17, 2015)

Thanks everyone, great advice


----------



## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

I was going to buy from Kelly because when I looked for frames (1 year ago), they were the only ones I found with foundationless frames.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I make my own, but I do check prices in case I want to expand quickly. Most commercials are using plastic foundation in wood frames, although I probably have every combination known, that is what I will be ordering. Seems Brushy Mountain usually wins the total price for parts + shipping if shipping is considered. If I go pick it up myself - no shipping, that is - Dadant runs cheaper. But I don't have this year's catalogs yet. It's been a dry year here until yesterday, so I have had plenty of equipment, not enough bees. Things may change now, with a little rain. We'll see....


----------



## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

I've been using both Dadant and Mann Lake . I think ML has an edge over Dadant , the parts just seem better finished (I'm picky , spent too many years in the cabinet shop) . They also have free shipping if you order enough , Dadant doesn't .


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

TurnTex said:


> All of my frames have been Mann Lake with RiteCell. I buy the frames already assembled. You may want to consider this if you plan to use RiteCell. On 100 frames, to buy the foundation and unassembled frames, it comes out to $173. Assembled frames with RiteCell for 100 comes out to $200, a difference of $27. I am a professional woodworker (how I make my living) and I could not build 100 frames with glue and nails for $27 or $.27 each!


This is incorrect, it is $270 for 100 assembled frames.


----------



## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

Oops, My mistake, you are somewhat correct! I was using all medium for my calculations so you are off too! For 100 medium frames, it is $250 compared to $173 for the same medium unassembled frames and foundation. I still can not build 100 frames for $77 with glue and staples, even with the pneumatic equipment I already have.


----------



## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

What type are you looking for? I know J&T beekeepers out of saginaw mi has all plastic rite cell frames, my bees have done wonderfully with them. He also has a large selection of other stuff to like plastic/wax foundation and wooden frames.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

TurnTex said:


> I still can not build 100 frames for $77 with glue and staples, even with the pneumatic equipment I already have.


We've made the decision that we can. Our 2 man (and 2 nailer) system usually nets us right at a frame a minute. Cost savings isn't the primary reason, though. I know our frames stay together and my only experience in ordering pre-assembled frames was a disaster. Nary a day goes by in the extracting room without seeing lots of reminders of the frustrations of poorly assembled frames. Perhaps they are better now but I'd rather not roll the dice again.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I can assemble 10 frames in my frame in jig in no time at all. And if someone happens to be helping me it's quicker yet. Plus, I know they're glued and sturdy. Or do you mean that the assembly of 100 frames for $77 can't happen? I'm confused. It's about $80 for parts glue is way less than $10 for 100 frames staples... I think 6 staples per frame @ $25 for 5000 staples = 3c per frame in staples. I can do 10 frames in about 7 minutes or less in my jig that includes glue, assembly, and staples. So in parts I've got $185 frames and foundation + $8 glue + $3 staples = $196... call it $200. Savings of $70 for about 70 minutes of work. So paying myself $60/hour? Not bad. That doesn't include the time to snap in the foundation, I guess. Which I've never really timed. It probably knocks the time down quite a bit. I think on my next batch of frames I'll slide the foundation in and then staple the bottom bar on and avoid snapping it in all together. Usually I just don't have the foundation's extra wax applied yet. Otherwise it would add 1-1.5 seconds per frame during assembly to slide in and staple.


----------



## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

jim lyon said:


> We've made the decision that we can. Our 2 man (and 2 nailer) system usually nets us right at a frame a minute. Cost savings isn't the primary reason, though. I know our frames stay together and my only experience in ordering pre-assembled frames was a disaster. Nary a day goes by in the extracting room without seeing lots of reminders of the frustrations of poorly assembled frames. Perhaps they are better now but I'd rather not roll the dice again.


Mr. Lyon, with all due respect, you are not saving any money doing it yourself at all! I understand wanting to make them so they are potentially better made. If that is the motivating factor, that is understandable. As a woodworker, I have been pleasantly satisfied with the Mann Lake assembled frames. They are true and square and are both glued and stapled with the proper staples. I have yet to have any come apart or even look like they will. Sure, this is my first year so my experience is not worth anything in this regard yet! However, my mentor, who has kept bees for 40 years and at one time was commercial before deciding to slow down switched to assembled frames a number of years ago. The ones that we have had blow out in the extractor were his older ones where he assembled them! You can tell because his were nailed and glued while the already assembled ones are stapled and glued. Then again, they were in pretty bad shape to begin with.

Let's look at the cost, though. Assuming you make 1 frame a minute as you state, you are saving $46.20 per hour for 2 men. That works out to $23.10 per hour. If it is you and an unpaid person, then sure, maybe your time is only worth $26.10 per hour. However, if you are paying the second man and are doing it above board with witholdings and such, not sure you can do it for $26.10 per hour. Your time as the business owner should be worth considerably more too. Of course this is assuming your nails and glue are free as well as the electricity in your shop and that you have no wear and tear on your equipment since none of those costs are allocated in the above $46.20 per hour! 

For my two man shop, I figure $50 per man hour as shop time. This covers labor, electricity, wear and tear on equipment, taxes, consumables, and other general overhead as well as profit.


----------



## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

Whatever floats your boat, jwcarlson! If you enjoy assembling frames, have at it! I would rather be doing something else with my time! All I said is that *I* can not assemble frames for $.77 each and make it worth my time. Your mileage varies so good for you! Just pointing out that the cost difference is not tremendous for those who may not have actually looked into it.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

TurnTex said:


> Mr. Lyon, with all due respect, you are not saving any money doing it yourself at all! I understand wanting to make them so they are potentially better made. If that is the motivating factor, that is understandable.


My help is salaried and it's good winter work so yes it saves me money but as I stated that's not the primary reason I do it so you can save the lesson in economics. We use wood with plastic foundation. Usually Dadant/Western but sometimes ML. In a horizontal loading extractor, frames almost never blow out, that's not the problem. The problem is they simply fall apart with even the most minor jarring once they get filled with honey. Once a joint fails in a full frame it's pretty much economically unfixable. We buy 5 to 10,000 frames per year and mix them in with drawn comb at 3 to 4 frames per box so this gives you some idea the scope of the problem....... and my frustration.


----------

