# All honey, no brood



## Margaret Sloan (Jun 23, 2008)

We've got an overwintered hive, 2 deeps, that's filled with honey, and virtually no brood. There are eggs in the drone frame, but those are all the eggs we found. No brood at all. Just honey.

We did find the queen. Since she looks like the queen we started with last year, we're fairly certain she's the same one . She is moving fast, but there is no place for her to lay eggs. 

We've been fighting varroa in this hive all winter. But it's always been a strong hive, with lots of bees (and lots of mites). We got 30 pounds of honey from her last year (the first year). A few weeks ago she had plenty of brood. We'd hate to lose this hive.

What do we do? We did put in two new frames, one in the bottom box and one in the top box. And a super on top, with no queen excluder. Should we wait to see if she'll start laying in any new comb they build? Or get a new queen right away?


----------



## BeeAware (Mar 24, 2007)

Sounds as if the hive is honey bound. If all cells are filled with nectar/honey, the queen has no place to lay. Add some frames with drawn comb if you have it and check again in about a week or 10 days. If still no eggs or larvae, get a new queen.


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Treat it as if it were a very small swarm.
a. Remove the top deep completely (assuming the bees are in the bottom box)
b. Extract honey from at least 6 deep frames immediately
c. Leave only 2 frames of honey in the brood box -- one on either side
d. Using the newly extracted frames, put in enough empty frames to bring the count back to 10
e. Close it up, reduce the entrance to the smallest opening and put on a feeder of 1:1 syrup.

If you know someone else who can give you a frame of capped brood that would help. If not you will have to wait until they have grown and drawn out all the new frames before adding the second deep back. 

Regards -- Fuzzy


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

a margaret sloan snip..
here are eggs in the drone frame, but those are all the eggs we found. No brood at all. Just honey.

tecumseh:
sounds like you have a drone laying queen to me. this plus the excess of honey suggest no brood rearing has been taking place for quite some time. I am also a bit confused as to why you have been having varroa problems in the winter (non brood rearing) portion of the year. which makes me wish to ask what kind of varroa treatment have you been using?

ps... my wife was reared in the menlo park/stanford area. we still visit there from time to time. I do quite like the area but it is way too busy for this country mouse.


----------



## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

*Am I missing something here*



> b. Extract honey from at least 6 deep frames immediately
> c. Leave only 2 frames of honey in the brood box -- one on either side
> d. Using the newly extracted frames, put in enough empty frames to bring the count back to 10
> e. Close it up, reduce the entrance to the smallest opening and put on a feeder of 1:1 syrup.


:scratch:Why would want to feed a honey bound hive:s


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Swarming in Menlo Park has been rampant the last few weeks, I had several calls and caught a swarm there. The flow is in flood stage.

There is no "non brood rearing" stage of year in Menlo Park. I produced 80 lbs of winter honey off of three hives in Palo Alto, just down the street. The trick in those neighborhoods is to purge the hives of slabs of honey in February.


----------



## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*We've been fighting varroa in this hive all winter.*

What is your _Varroa_ control methods?


----------



## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*2 deeps, that's filled with honey,*

You might consider pulling your honey crop and extracting it before it crystalizes in the comb.

Ernie


----------



## Margaret Sloan (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks for all your answers. Yes, there must be quite a honey flow, because everything is blooming like crazy. But still, the bees won't move up through the queen excluder into the super. We finally just took the queen excluder off.

As to why we have varroa in winter: There was brood most of the winter here. It never gets really cold. 

Our treatment has been: Apistan (3 times), formic acid (2x this winter), and sugar dusting.

We have some brood in another hive that we could switch. Do we need eggs too, so they can raise another queen? Should we include the nurse bees on the frame too, or shake them off?


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Margaret, 
If you used apistan during the time that the bees were filling the brood boxes with honey, then the honey is trash. It should NOT be consumed by humans or animals. Thin it with hot water and pour it down the nearest drain.

Honeyman46408: You are definitely missing something !


----------



## Margaret Sloan (Jun 23, 2008)

oops, sorry, not Apistan. Apiguard. But we still won't eat the honey.

We treated this hive so much that we've pulled 7 frames of capped honey, and can use only 2 of the frames.


----------



## Margaret Sloan (Jun 23, 2008)

Update:
We pulled 4 of the honey filled frames from the top box and put in 4 brand new ones. They've drawn comb on two of them, and the queens laying eggs. There are still tons of bees in that hive. Hope they live to see the new brood!

Incidentally, we extracted the honey from the old foundation. Everything reeks of Apiguard. Should we just throw that foundation away and start fresh? Will it make any new honey stink?


----------



## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Okay Fuzzy, I'll bite. I don't have any idea why I would want to feed a honey bound hive. I never have.


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Beeteedee,
The hive that Margaret described was below critical mass as well as being completely honeybound. My recommendation was to remove virtually all honey and treat it as you would a small swarm. It would then not be honeybound and would need a good supply of food to expand to the necessary critical mass.

So, I would agree that it is counter productive to feed a honeybound hive. But it is necessary to feed any group of bees that are below critical mass.

Regards – Fuzzy


----------



## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

In the spring my hives, even weak ones, won't take syrup after any type of nectar can be found. It sounds like hers have plenty. I won't say that you are wrong, but it doesn't seem to match what I have seen.


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Beedeetee,

Again, I must agree I have also seen the behaviour that you describe. However, just last week I worked a similar hive (3 frames of bees and 5 undrawn frames). All other hives in the area are filling supers with honey right now. This hive took down a gallon of syrup over a two week period and pulled out most of the frames. 

So, while it may not be used, it is cheap insurance to help the colony recover.

Regards -- Fuzzy


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

You are talking about different scenarios. Feeding a hiveor swarm to help out comb building is a good idea. Feeding a hive that is so honey bound that the queen has no room to lay in the middle of a honey flow, or where she has cut back laying to swarm, or where she has gone eggless, is a waste of syrup.


----------



## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

> Incidentally, we extracted the honey from the old
> foundation. Everything reeks of Apiguard. Should we
> just throw that foundation away and start fresh?

Wax absorbs chemicals and oils.

In January's Bee Culture January 2009 the University of Georgia Bee Lab wrote that commercial foundation from bee supply houses had pesticide residues. To get clean wax for their experiments they had to use a starter strip of plastic foundation and let the bees draw their own comb. There have been studies which show that queens on pesticide-impregnated wax weigh less, and drones can be sterile.

> Will it make any new honey stink?

Why take the risk? Thymol may be 'organic' but it is an essential oil and the first recommendation on essential oils is to use them topically, not take them internally.

If you don't want to use new foundation, give the bees starter strips like the Bee Lab did.

Are you a member of the local bee club? The folks there can give you lots of advice on how to handle the conditions in your area.


----------



## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

those frames that smell like apiguard, you can reuse them in the brood box, but never extract the honey for human consumption.

I would not add any eggs or bees to this sick hive. Those eggs and bees would be best served in the hive they have or in a healthy weaker hive. I am amazed that the control of varroa was so poor on the hive with all the treatments you provided it. What are you mite counts now, and what were they before treatment. This is the best measure to know if a treatment is working.

if this were my hive, I would do one of two things
1. I would take it totally out of production and get the mites undercontrol before disease sets in. I would reduce it to one deep box, or two depending on the amount of bees. Get the hive healthy before thinking on honey.

2. We, husband and i look at the business side of things. We are cattle producers and honey/bee producers. This is our farms lively hoood. Everything is costed out. Treated like a business. If this hive can not make the grade by the $ amount spent, it is culled. There is no money to be made in treating and treating and treating, only to end up with a deadout. We set a price and stick to it. This includes all treatings, and a new queen, as well as adding from a healthy hive.
But before we treat, we weigh the what if's and decide if it is viable to treat. I mean if there is only a frame or so of bees, best to cull. Our summer is to short and winter too hard to baby a hive that will only fail in the end. Our what if's include the time of year the hive deteriorates...spring, might be able to pull it around before fall, if it fails early to mid summer, might try and pull it through. If it fails in August or later, it is toast because no amount of treating will pull it though the winter, and give it enough healthy bees to survive our winter.


----------



## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Clean that extraction equipment really good. Then clean it again to prevent cross contamination of that apiguard stuff


----------

