# Treatment-Free, Winter 2012-2013, How's it going?



## taydeko

We have had some very cold weather for here. Down close to zero degrees. Since this is my first winter, I am anxiously awaiting warmer weather to see what is going on. It has been getting up into the 50s this week. I saw a few bees outside two of my hives. I am a little concerned about the warm weather right now, because it could get cold again. Pollen should start appearing soon, here, so I am looking forward to that. I am hoping to do some splits and create some nucs for raising queens this year.

Ted


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## dixiebooks

I've never experienced winter losses before, but so far this year I've lost about half my nucs. But that was to be expected because my work schedule got crazy toward the end of the year and I was unable to take care of the bees as I needed to and make sure they were up to proper weights. But, I wanted survivor bees so, dadgummit, that's what I'm getting. The price is high. -js


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## Vance G

So how does starving bees that weren't allowed time to gather adequate winter stores improve the bees? You have to have bees to keep bees.


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## dkvello

we are having a bad year in Virginia, losses running about 50% for some (my self included) 3 of my hives had CCD symptoms ( no bees at all in hive) 2 were weak hives despite my best efforts ( I know, I should have combines them) and one who knows Mites maybe?


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## Metropropolis

dkvello said:


> we are having a bad year in Virginia, losses running about 50% for some (my self included) 3 of my hives had CCD symptoms ( no bees at all in hive)


CCD is characterized by the disappearance of foragers, not all bees. 

Absence of bees in the hive is indicative of absconding.


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## bevy's honeybees

None of my hives were treated in 2012 and my only loss so far is a nuk to bull ants. Oh, an early spring last year to nosema, a cut out hive that had never done well. I inspected all but one hive over the last 10 days and with temps almost always in 80's so far, and there is a light nectar flow of some kind right now, most my hives look good. Almost all have about 3 frames of brood, a couple with more than that. According to my notes from last January, it's less this year for some reason. Maybe it has to do with the cool that is supposed to come for most the month of February in deep south.

I don't count mites, everything looks good in all my hives other than one. I have one that has since last summer been pretty hot. It calmed down Nov and Dec, but now with the buildup starting, I see that not only are they runny on the frames, anxious when I went in, they also have brood top to bottom which is another indication of Africanized. I haven't decided what to do--something soon for sure. I looked for the queen but couldn't find her, probably from smoking them and their running on the frames as they were. I want to intercept esp before they really build out and before she starts drone laying. Any ideas? I requeened this hive last May, I think they may have killed her.


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## jmgi

Lost 50% of everything, full size and nucs, hopefully what's left will make it. Was planning to split heavily this year to increase hive count but all these deadouts are hurting badly, just don't want to buy bees anymore other than queens. John


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## D Semple

I've lost 5 out of 41 so far, with a couple more that are weak. Condensation issues are biting me this winter here in KC.

Our weather here has been a regular roller coaster ride, five weeks in a row of temperatures on some days as high as the mid-sixty's only to fall back to days with lows in the low teens.

On a side note; I track about two dozen feral colonies and they are really taking a beating here this winter. Drought here and no fall flow to speak of seems to have really caught them off guard.

Don


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## Solomon Parker

Vance G said:


> So how does starving bees that weren't allowed time to gather adequate winter stores improve the bees?


It would be pretty stiff selection for frugality.

I should skip feeding one year. Fear of loss is an unutilitarian motivator.


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## BeeGhost

Lost two strong double deeps ten framers to mites. Checked the other six hives ( three double deeps, three double deep five frame nucs) and everything was alive. Although I was treatment free until I lost the two double deeps I did do an oxalic vapor treatment on my three remaining double deep ten framers and I am glad I did, had 35 drop in one, 72 drop in another and 26 I believe in the last one. This was after 48 hours.


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## Solomon Parker

Wouldn't 72 mites be well less than 1%?


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## dixiebooks

Vance G said:


> So how does starving bees that weren't allowed time to gather adequate winter stores improve the bees? You have to have bees to keep bees.


You didn't quote anyone or address anyone but I will assume your question is directed at me. Maybe the answer is because those bees that can't or won't collect enough won't make it? That's all I got. Perhaps their ability to ration what they do have. I wasn't trying to make excuses for myself. I just didn't have the time to do what needed doing. -js


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## squarepeg

2012 was the first time in my three years of beekeeping that i didn't feed in the fall. i was concerned at first at how light my hives were after the first frost, but it's looking like everything's going to be alright.


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## dixiebooks

squarepeg said:


> 2012 was the first time in my three years of beekeeping that i didn't feed in the fall. i was concerned at first at how light my hives were after the first frost, but it's looking like everything's going to be alright.


I know that must be a relief. I think most of my primary colonies will be OK. I'll do splits and catch swarms, of course, that should more than make up for the losses.

-js


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## RiodeLobo

Very very poorly. 7/8 dead. Last winter lost 1 of 6. This winter is testing the faith.


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## BeeGhost

Solomon Parker said:


> Wouldn't 72 mites be well less than 1%?


Probably close, but 72 mites now would be how many by spring build up? Not to mention I don't know how much capped brood there is now as I haven't done an inspection to see yet.

I'm trying to get into march with almost zero mites.


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## zhiv9

It's my first winter with my first colony. It had a very high mite count in August (130/24hr drop to SBB), but so far is surviving without treatment. We just had a week of very cold weather where it got down to -26degC(-15 def F). I was happy to see a few dead bees in the fresh snow when it was sunny and a little sunny on Saturday. I have plans to increase to 5 colonies next season and this colony surviving is key to that.


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## beemandan

Solomon Parker said:


> Wouldn't 72 mites be well less than 1%?


1% of what?


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## Solomon Parker

As in 1% of bees carrying a mite. 72 mites in a whole hive would be quite a low infestation it seems to me. But then again, I'm the sort to let it ride.


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## squarepeg

to the op, and out of 19 hives that weren't treated for mites, one succumbed to mites, and one died to what i believe was a combination of queen failure and mites.


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## Oldtimer

Wow that's pretty interesting Zhiv, was that a natural drop? (no chemicals like sugar dust or whatever?) If a natural drop I've never seen a hive with so many mites, untreated, and still alive 6 months later. What is the breed?


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## rwurster

Lost 1 untreated hive to a starve out. The other 6 untreated hives are doing well so far through wild temp swings from -12 to 65. February is when we will get the lion's share of our moisture.


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## bhfury

All mine are chugging right along. We have had huge swings in our weather. Some of the hives are getting a little light so I will feed some sugar this week if it dries up enough to get in and out without getting stuck. All-in-All.... happy happy happy!!!


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## cg3

BeeGhost said:


> had 35 drop in one, 72 drop in another and 26 I believe in the last one.


Won't say what I did here but here is a pretty big mite drop. (1500+)
http://db.tt/CNMoG0Md


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## AstroBee

dkvello said:


> we are having a bad year in Virginia, losses running about 50% for some (my self included) 3 of my hives had CCD symptoms ( no bees at all in hive) 2 were weak hives despite my best efforts ( I know, I should have combines them) and one who knows Mites maybe?


That's not what I've seen at all. So far zero losses for me. Pretty mild winter, so that's to be expected. If you're losing 50% of your bees in southeast VA there's got to be other things at play.


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## Solomon Parker

Now that's a mite drop.


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## cg3

Go big or go home.


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## abejorro

Shenandoah Valley of VA... 7 hives going into winter, and seven hives active today (balmy in the 60's). I just hope they don't get started too early and then get hit by Feb/Mar cold snaps. Fingers crossed...


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## Beregondo

I'm in the Chemung valley of upstate New York.
I've had temps swing from -9F to mid fifties.

So far I've lost one nuc to starvation.

I had to go out of state from Oct 2 til Thanksgiving, and by the time I got back it was too cold to feed up to weight.

That nuc was a pretty late split, and was pretty well dwindled w/ no stores when I mtn camped it. I'd have been surprised if it had made it. It was in a single 5 frame.

The rest of the nucs are in single deeps, 2 nucs to each 10 frame box. 
Two others aren't showing much activity, and may be lost as well. They are in the box at the windward end and have taken a beating. 
This my first winter in this yard and the wind is apparently pretty brutal.

The rest seem to be doing quite well. I have one strain that has been out foraging when temp were in the 40's and bringing something back.
Can't imagine what pollen they found, but they were bringing in light grey pollen. 
I think it is too early for willow .. it might be chicken feed or some other.

This winter is going surprisingly well, given the neglect in the fall.


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## rkereid

In SW VA, just west of the Blue Ridge. Went into fall with a little over 90, half nucs, half 10 frame. As of yesterday lost a little over 25% of the 10 frame, and 15% of nucs. Almost all are mite/virus related crashes in Nov and Dec. Plenty of feed on the hives, mostly honey, some syrup. A couple more hives are queenless so they will be gone too. Working on quality and not quantity at this point, nature is helping!

Richard


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## iwombat

With the exception of some mamal-induced losses (bear). I have 100% survival going into Feb. 

I'll take that.


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## Solomon Parker

You don't treat for bears? :lpf:


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## zhiv9

Oldtimer said:


> Wow that's pretty interesting Zhiv, was that a natural drop? (no chemicals like sugar dust or whatever?) If a natural drop I've never seen a hive with so many mites, untreated, and still alive 6 months later. What is the breed?


That was a natural drop. The bees are local Ontario stock. Italian in colour, but definitely a mixed breed.


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## Oldtimer

Did they have brood overwinter, and what is their status now, mite wise?


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## zhiv9

It's so cold here this time of year, that there is no opportunity to check mite or brood status. I see a few dead bees here and there in the snow and take that as a good sign. I counted mites a couple of times in the fall and the mite drop fell steadily. I assumed that this was due to population reduction in preparation for winter.


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## camero7

Metropropolis said:


> CCD is characterized by the disappearance of foragers, not all bees.
> 
> Absence of bees in the hive is indicative of absconding.


My understanding is that CCD usually has a few bees and the queen left behind and all others gone, including brood bees.


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## Oldtimer

OK Zhiv, well this would be quite a success story if the bees come through OK ánd I'd like to know. Please post here once you've opened it up & had a good look, cheers.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Here's what the USDA Agricultural Research Service says about CCD symptoms:



> The main symptom of CCD is very low or no adult honey bees present in the hive but with a live queen and no dead honey bee bodies present. Often there is still honey in the hive, and immature bees (brood) are present. _Varroa_ mites, a virus-transmitting parasite of honey bees, have frequently been found in hives hit by CCD.
> 
> _The full page is here:
> _http://www.ars.usda.gov/News/docs.htm?docid=15572#history


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## NCbeek

So far all four still kicking. Only fed one, but the others are getting lighter. Seem to be ok, but ready for spring so I can relax. Seems like I take winter losses harder than summer.


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## Birdman

So far so good all 20 hives still going and one tree limb with bees that I got late Oct.


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## Maddox65804

So far, 30 untreated hives (No treatments in 10 years) are alive and well. My winter has been like Solomon's - mild but not as mild as last year. So far, it looks like we're going to have another early spring.

I had to feed for the first time in years because we had a very long drought here in SW Missouri. Almost 5 weeks with no rain and 100+ degree days for more than a week at a time. So the only real nectar flow we had in this area was from March thru mid May. The bees had nothing to feed on during the summer and fall (except humming bird feeders :shhhh So many hives lost weight during the summer. I don't like feeding because it helps me determine which lines of bees are the best at surviving, but this fall I had little choice. Only a small percentage would have been able to survive this drought. I am really worried about the feral hive's survival rates this winter.


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## squarepeg

excellent jeff. doing anything special like using small cell foundation or bringing in vsh queens?


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## Maddox65804

squarepeg said:


> excellent jeff. doing anything special like using small cell foundation or bringing in vsh queens?


I have worked in Ecology for almost 30 years and have seen the damage we do when we transport living creatures across great distances (think varroa mites, SHB, starlings). So, I am very hesitant to bring in bees from areas outside of my ecoregion because I do not want to make those same mistakes. (And yes, I do recognize the hypocrisy of this since honeybees are not native to the Americas. I figure I should admit to that before I get lamblasted. :lookout 

I do let the bees draw a lot of natural comb though. So they get to decide what size of cell works best for them.

When I moved here from Indiana, I found the bees that did well in Indiana did not do as well here in SW Missouri. So I have concentrated on finding bees that do well here. I do a lot of removals and swarm collections. When I get a new set of bees from a removal, I treat them as a new genetic line since I do not know where they originated. I keep careful track of these lines and evaluate them over a two year period for production, conservation of stores, workability (gentleness), whether they fly earlier than other hives, swarming tendency, spring build up, etc......and of course survival. I am not concerned with exactly how they survive, as long as they do survive. I used to worry more about the "how" until I realized how much time I was spending on it. The bottom line for me is that they do well, not "how" they did well. I like to keep a diversity of genetic lines and survival mechanisms. Diverse populations are almost always more robust than uniform or semi-monotypic populations.

If a genetic line makes it through two winters and is doing well, then I consider them for possible breeding. The whole line must be doing well, not just one or two hives in the line. Then I select the best of those lines to put in the breeding yards. These are the ones I use to raise queens to sell in nucs. I usually end up with about 10 new lines a year. Only 4 or so make it to final evaluation. My process is still evolving so nothing is set in stone 

I sell nucs and that has an effect on the mite population. So, I do not count mites because my data would be skewed anyway. Mostly, I am concerned with finding bees that do well despite the mites and SHB. Again, the important part to me is that they do survive, not exactly how. I have several hives between 4-10 years old now.


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## squarepeg

great reply, thanks jeff.


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## Solomon Parker

Maddox65804 said:


> I had to feed for the first time in years because we had a very long drought here in SW Missouri. Almost 5 weeks with no rain and 100+ degree days for more than a week at a time. So the only real nectar flow we had in this area was from March thru mid May. The bees had nothing to feed on during the summer and fall (except humming bird feeders :shhhh So many hives lost weight during the summer. I don't like feeding because it helps me determine which lines of bees are the best at surviving, but this fall I had little choice. Only a small percentage would have been able to survive this drought. I am really worried about the feral hive's survival rates this winter.


Same conditions here. Last winter, I had virtually no hives with any substantial stores going into fall. This year was a little better and more than half have not been fed.


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## spunky

Lost a 2nd yr russian hybrid hive by october, my bad on that. I didnt do deep enough hive inspection ; they couldnt replace their queen and lost some combs to wax moths. Just lost a sunkist hive this week that did replace their brand new queen 2x last year and had no brood in october , was 4 frames of bees then. My 3 rd hive NWC's , are booming 2 deeps full of bees ( 2nd yr queen) , all looking good and healthy. This has been an average winter here, everyone knows the severe drought that went on in 2012 all over the midwest espically in SW Indiana


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## Moon

Lost one hive of 39 but I'm pretty sure it wasn't going to make it. Fought with it all summer between losing a queen early on, getting a drone laying queen, and then what I was assuming was a laying worker. Finally had it sorted out by adding endless frames of brood only to have fall set in and the hive die out with a lack of resources. The other 38 are still alive as of right now, the winter hasn't been harsh in comparison to most Wyoming winter but we've had several days at sub zero temperatures. All hives were left with 2 deeps of honey, some managed to end up with 3 (don't know why or how I missed them) and I have one nuc that is still going pretty strong. One hive that I was expecting to die because it was in a 10 frame deep that had only 6 frames drawn out was full of bees and no honey on my last walk around the apiary. In an attempt to help them make it through till winter I grabbed 2 frames of honey from the deadout and dropped them in, hopefully they're still doing well. Keep waiting for a 50 degree day to get out and do some manipulations but until then, best keep tossing back the Easy Street's


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## Solomon Parker

Latest check, 23/23 still alive. The first week of February is the latest I've ever lost a hive here in Arkansas and maple pollen is already out. Also working on my website. New front page format, a couple new and expanded pages as well.


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## Serendipidity

So far so good! Lost 1 out of 14. Thought it would be more as several of them were light and I should of feed more. Hope the rest make it through March!!


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## bhfury

Lost two of last year's swarm hives.


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## Rick55

Lost 3 out of 20 and and all of 14 Nucs still going strong


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## heaflaw

I have had a bad year. Lost 15 of 21 hives. Have been treatment free for 8 or 9 years. They seemed to have swindled until there were not enough bees in the cluster to keep warm. I did a check for varroa where I poured powdered sugar on them and counted the dropped mites on the sticky board. I only counted about 8 mites for each hive. I plan to send a sample of dead bees to Beltsville for testing. Maybe it was Nosema Ceranae? Any suggestions? 

I'm very disheartened. I had planned to try raising queens and selling them and nucs this spring. I won't have enough bees and I also don't want to sell treatment free bees if they aren't.


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## Oldtimer

heaflaw said:


> I also don't want to sell treatment free bees if they aren't.


Put it this way. Whatever the reason it turns out it happened to them, you have 6 survivors. They would surely be as qualified to be bred from, as anyone elses?

At least you've been straight up about what happened. If I was near you and wanted to buy some survivor queens, I'd probably prefer to buy them from you.


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## heaflaw

Oldtimer said:


> Put it this way. Whatever the reason it turns out it happened to them, you have 6 survivors. They would surely be as qualified to be bred from, as anyone elses?
> 
> At least you've been straight up about what happened. If I was near you and wanted to buy some survivor queens, I'd probably prefer to buy them from you.


Good way to put it. Thanks. I feel better.


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## sfisher

I lost 2 of 7 both were nucs, 1 has a laying worker i probably killed the queen, they hatch some queens out but there was no drones around at the time. I lost the other one yesturday, I put some syrup on it because Im trying to get them to start drawing out PF frames. Yesturday I saw that it was being robbed but couldnt do anything because I was on my way to work. Checked it last night when I got home and it was empty.


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## Moon

Heaflaw, there's no reason you can't raise queens and nucs off of what you have. With 2 hives I was able to produce 40 queens in one sitting via the grafting method. If you have 1 hive setup for rearing queens that leaves you 5 hives to pull frames of brood from to establish nucs. I think you could safely establish 15-20 mating nucs and allow those mating or mini nucs to grow into full sized 5 frame nucs and later in the season into a deep or double deep setup depending on the flows in your area and how much you would be willing to feed.


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## Solomon Parker

heaflaw said:


> Any suggestions?


Yes, keep going. And stop dumping foreign substances in your hives.


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## DLMKA

I lost 1 of 9 and that one was sometime in early Jan. Lots of stores (nearly a full deep) and lots of bees, enough to cover the SBB with at least an inch of carcasses plus what was butt out in the combs, just wouldn't move to the top box. Others are looking good. The nuc I'm wintering benefitted from the demise of the other hive and got 5 full deep frames of honey, they were nearly out of stores. Ready for my first full season with bees!


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## heaflaw

Solomon Parker said:


> Yes, keep going. And stop dumping foreign substances in your hives.


Yes, I know powdered sugar treatments are not really treatment free. It was just a quick way to gauge mite infestation and once in 8 years will make very little difference.


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## gunter62

Here in middle Tennessee, 5 of 5 are still alive so far. All are nucs made up in late July. This is my third winter, and I have never used any type of treatment. I have only bought 1 hive and 4 queens. The queens were survivor types from Purvis. Unfortunately, only 2 of those took, and 1 of those turned drone layer.I'm set to get 2 nucs in March, and these are supposed to be survivor bees. Looking forward to a great new season.


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## Solomon Parker

I see a number of people buying queens and nucs rather than making new ones. I'm wondering why you wouldn't choose rather to make increases from your own stock.


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## Moon

Maybe some people aren't interested in learning to raise queens or make splits. Maybe they want to try different genetics?


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## Ramona

It's hard to resist the "queen is always greener" but if you have multi-year survivors that are treatment-free and you like them, they will produce "greener" queens for other beekeepers.

Raising queens isn't that hard. Perpetuating your own survival genetics and being able to share them with others in your área is, in my opinion, a very important aspect to treatment-free beekeeping.

You can work towards improving your área in general by making sure other beekeepers have good genetics to contribute to the drone pool.

Ramona


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## gunter62

I am attempting to produce my own stock. Tried grafting last year with some success. I bought some new queens hoping to broaden my genetic base. If I could figure out how to deal with shb, I would be in much better shape numbers wise. Last year, most of my increase fell victim to the nasty beggars. 

I ordered 2 nucs for this spring as a hedge against winter losses. Plus, at $50 apiece, they were hard to pass up. We'll have to see how they work out. Hopefully better than last summer's queen purchase. 

I'm currently building bottom boards with oil pan traps to help with shb control. In hive traps helped, but didn't quite get the job done. I think I might have gotten a late start and the infestation was too great, especially when I was continually weakening hives by splitting them.


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## Ramona

We were at a beekeeping conference in Florida last August and saw an excellent presentation by Dr. Peter Teal of the ARS on SHB control. Here is a link to a recording:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G__D8rlqdoU

The audio is a bit rough...maybe better with headphones? I have notes somewhere that I will try and find. The gist (as I remember) was that SHB are extremely attracted to very ripe cantaloupe (even more than pollen or beebread). They were originally not a pest of the honeybee but have adapted to the bees in the absence of certain rotting fruit that they prefer. 

What I came away from the talk with was that a reasonable solution for a SHB problem in a small apiary close to a location you frequent regularly (such as your house) would be to use very ripe cantaloupe as bait near the hives and to remove and replace every three days. I would put the cantaloupe in a cage to keep predators from taking it and after three days, freeze and replace. You may be able to rotate the frozen/laid up samples a couple of times. The idea is to get the adult SHB attracted to and doing their thing on the cantaloupe, away from the bees.

There is another fruit the SHB like better than very ripe cantaloupe (key apple?) but that fruit is not readily available.

Dr. Teal's discussion of SHB biology and behavior and the research that he and his lab are doing was fascinating.

I'm surprised that in all the SHB discussions that more people don't know about him and his research.

Ramona


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## squarepeg

bummed. after three winters of zero losses and treatment free (by my defintion), in this fourth winter i have 6 losses out 18 colonies that all looked perfect on their fall inspections.

by perfect i mean queenright, healthy brood, excellent stores. all have been on a honey only diet.

more posts to follow, perhaps in other threads, but 5 out of 6 dead outs were queenless.

the sixth loss was a fall 'dead out' that still had the queen with about 150 bees and a 150% (by alcohol wash) mite infestation. i shook them out and froze the comb.

three of the five queenless hives had no bees, minimal stores, very little mite feces, very few if any mites on the bottom board. only one of these three showed sign of getting robbed out.

the other two had laying workers, decent cluster sizes, and were foraging and raising nice patches of drones.

the mystery wrapped in an enigma is what happened to those queens.

any thoughts?


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## Moon

No idea on what happened to your queens, although, sorry to hear about your losses. Always a bummer opening up a deadout and knowing as soon as you look at the top bars that nothing inside is stirring =p


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## Solomon Parker

gunter62 said:


> at $50 apiece, they were hard to pass up.


That is a pretty good deal. I was just wondering. I have found it extremely advantagious to make as many of my own queens and nucs as possible. I have made great leaps forward in a few short years.




squarepeg said:


> 5 out of 6 dead outs were queenless.


I have experienced missing queens in the fall. Many of my historical losses have been of this category. The "experts" here diagnosed the problem as mites. At any rate, those genetics are no longer muddying up my gene pool and the problem rarely occurred in the last several years.


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## squarepeg

many thanks sol. all of the queens that died came from a 15 year treatment free supplier directly, or were from splits and swarms that came from his queens. 

three winters no losses then 33% gone this year, and in this case genetics wasn't the only thing in play.

i'm not sad to see the nonsurvivors go, and i'll restock from the best of the leftovers. i'm wondering if mating was hampered in some way for these. or maybe they didn't handle a virus as well, but why the queens.........?


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## Solomon Parker

Who were they from, if you don't mind my asking? Perhaps we are talking about the same supplier.


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## squarepeg

do you mean same supplier as gunter? my guy is just north of ft. payne, and his nucs sell for more than $50.

i haven't had time to examine my journals yet, but i'm thinking some if not all of these may have been emergency queens and/or swarms.

i have a problem with birds catching my queens when mating. a couple of my colonies that issued swarms failed to get a mated queen. maybe supercedure has been plagued with the same problem.

i also worry about bottlenecked genetics since most of my stock comes from the same operation.


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## pgayle

13 of 13 alive so far. Last treatment was thymol in the fall of 2009, so I can't really consider them long-term treatment free yet. All the queens were raised here in NW OK, with the exception of one queen I bought from Solomon last summer. 

I have 3 lines, not counting Sol's queen: Russian from Velbert Williams in 2009, Russian/VSH from Velbert in 2010, and one of undetermined parentage that I bought locally in the fall of 2009. The Russian/VSH are good producers but tend to be a little on the hot side. The ones descended from the Russians are just all-around good. The best one, gentle and productive, was from the unknown line; interestingly it was from a package the guy had bought that spring, then he had to move, and the bees kind of fended for themselves all summer till I bought them. Unusual for a package to be that good. He can't remember where he bought the package.

I was impressed that when I went out to Sol's apiary with him to catch the queen I bought, he went out in shorts and flip-flops. I wanted local survivor genetics, but the gentleness will be a real bonus. I hope to raise some queens from that line this summer.


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## Solomon Parker

That was the one where I tore that nuc apart like three times looking for the queen then finally took one out of another nuc only to find that the queen in the first one was hiding on the wall of the hive, correct? I had forgotten about that. Maybe that was someone else, I don't remember exactly. 

I hope she's still serving you well?


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## RiodeLobo

After losing 7/8 this winter I have a plan for the up coming season. I have 3 queens from Olympic wilderness apiaries ordered, 6 packages from a general supplier, and 3 nucs reserved from old sol. The plan is to let everything build up through the main flow, and then make winter nucs and requeen the production hives with the old sol and OWA genetics. thoughts?


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## rkereid

RiodeLobo said:


> I have 3 queens from Olympic wilderness apiaries ordered, 6 packages from a general supplier, and 3 nucs reserved from old sol. The plan is to let everything build up through the main flow, and then make winter nucs and requeen the production hives with the old sol and OWA genetics. thoughts?


I would suggest you requeen those packages early to get the genetics changed. We've had bad luck with packages, even when requeened. You might also consider keeping the packages in a different yard from Old Sols nucs so you don't end up with drifting between them. It may not guarantee success, but it might make some difference.


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## RiodeLobo

Not a bad idea, but I cannot get them as soon I would like to. OWA does not ship until July. I can get the Old Sol nucs is in mid-late May. The packages arrive in early April.


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## Hartley

I'm in Richmond, VA and I can second your concerns on losses over the winter. I've lost at least 50% of my hives out of eighteen hives that appeared to be strong going into winter. These hives ranged from first year Langs and TBHs, to fourth year TBHs. From swarms caught last spring to hives started from local nucs to splits from my own hives. No treatments. Many other beekeepers in VA are also reporting large losses. The State Apiarist, Keith Tignor, reports that he has talked with many beekeepers in the state with large losses. Keith will be doing the March 12th program for East Richmond Beekeepers Assoc. on what he is finding as the causes of these high losses this winter: http://www.eastrichmondbees.org/ Briefly, summer and fall drought, hardly any nectar sources after June and low quality pollen from drought stressed plants. Queens did not produce enough "winter bees" to get hives through until spring, extremely high Varroa counts along with the stress of SHB. Majority of my deadouts had plenty of capped honey & pollen near the cluster. Just a small handful of dead bees with a queen (usually) in the cluster, some with small patches of new capped worker brood. Just not enough bees to keep up the warmth. Hives dwindled away to almost nothing and froze. Now it's time to start over and see what the year brings. 

David
[email protected]


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## rkereid

Hartley said:


> I'm in Richmond, VA and I can second your concerns on losses over the winter. I've lost at least 50% of my hives out of eighteen hives that appeared to be strong going into winter. These hives ranged from first year Langs and TBHs, to fourth year TBHs. From swarms caught last spring to hives started from local nucs to splits from my own hives. No treatments. Many other beekeepers in VA are also reporting large losses. Briefly, summer and fall drought, hardly any nectar sources after June and low quality pollen from drought stressed plants. Queens did not produce enough "winter bees" to get hives through until spring, extremely high Varroa counts along with the stress of SHB. Majority of my deadouts had plenty of capped honey & pollen near the cluster. Just a small handful of dead bees with a queen (usually) in the cluster, some with small patches of new capped worker brood. Just not enough bees to keep up the warmth. Hives dwindled away to almost nothing and froze. Now it's time to start over and see what the year brings.
> 
> David
> [email protected]


Advantage....mites. We are seeing the same just west of you, though we did have some nectar and pollen in the fall, and SHB is more a minor inconvenience. My losses this winter are twice what they normally are.


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## rwurster

Lost 2 tf hives to starve outs, did my first inspection of the year and my other 8 tf hives have probably 5 pounds of bees in each hive. It was in the high 50s today with sub-freezing temps for a week on the way. All hives have at least 20 pounds of honey and are bringing in pollen like I've never seen them bring in pollen. All had nice big brood patterns which shocked me, must be the semi-mild winter we've had.


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## Paul McCarty

I have lost one out of 12 so far - and that was due to a dead queen at the height of Winter... found her on the bottom board of an empty hive. These bees were generic Italians. My remaining feral/survivor bees are booming right now. Even the one that I overwintered with four frames of bees and honey. I have one more hive of generic Italians that seem to be barely hanging on too. Planning on giving them a new queen soon.

One of my friends overwintered a three frame nuc with one of my wild queens and they are plugging right along too. I am thinking I should make it a priority to breed from my wild bees this year.:shhhh: 

My feral/survivors are all from 3rd year or older wild hives and queens. I do feed them at times, but really do nothing else for them except for using juniper/creosote bush smoke in my smoker. I noticed most of my bees still have the fall feed I gave them in October stashed away - I colored it blue with food coloring (I know - not very environmentally friendly I suppose).


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## sfisher

Paul what were you feeding your bees that you colored blue, was it syrup?


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## Paul McCarty

Yes - I gave them 2:1. I wanted to see what got carried over into next year. Apparently a lot did.

I know some people consider feeding a treatment, but sometimes around here (in the desert) you have to.


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## DRUR

I am treatment free. Don't treat with anything except if you consider screened bottom boards treatments. However, I will be going back to solid bottom boards. I am small cell and have been treatment free since I got back into beekeeping in March of 2009.

I tried moving my colonies around last year with some other beekeepers. Moved 16 to cotton in West Texas, came back [Mid August] with 13 all with depleted populations. 

Lost 4 more before I had the populations built back up and the colonies prepared for winter which left me with 9 going into the winter, end of October. I came through the winter with all 9 but one was queenless so I dropped a frame of eggs/larva. There are a couple of queen cells with the bottoms cut off but not brood yet. 5 are boiling full of bees [1-3 mediums, 4-4 mediums], and the other 3 [3 mediums] are all in good shape. I am making splits right now, to 18 colonies.
Kindest regards
Danny Unger


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## Paul McCarty

I gave up moving to crops and just do a more or less stationary operation in the desert mequites. You don't get as much honey, but you also don't have to worry about chemicals.


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## DubBub

Lost 3/4 hives over the winter. Never used any treatments. All 4 hives went into winter with deeps full of honey, which is a lot for Central California winters. The 3 lost hives had no bees and about 40% of the honey stores. CCD or absconding, not sure. Pretty unusual to abscond in the winter with cool temps and lack of food. Remaining honeycomb had a thin layer of mold over the top, so it had been empty for a little while. Had to scrape all the honeycomb out because of the mold. Fairly mild winter, not much rain.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Welcome to Beesource!

> Remaining honeycomb had a thin layer of mold over the top, so it had been empty for a little while.

If you have mold, you probably had too much condensation (while the bees were alive). Wet bees in cold temperatures don't live too long. Perhaps you should consider a top vent, or top entrance, at least in winter.


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## DubBub

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Welcome to Beesource!
> 
> > Remaining honeycomb had a thin layer of mold over the top, so it had been empty for a little while.
> 
> If you have mold, you probably had too much condensation (while the bees were alive). Wet bees in cold temperatures don't live too long. Perhaps you should consider a top vent, or top entrance, at least in winter.


Good idea. Figured that the mold formed after they left since there were no bees to circulate the air and keep the moisture out.


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## beemandan

DubBub said:


> Lost 3/4 hives over the winter. Never used any treatments.





DubBub said:


> CCD or absconding, not sure.


Varroa?


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## DubBub

beemandan said:


> Varroa?


Possibly, but not likely. Use screened bottom boards and never find an unusually high number of mites. Plus, two lost hives were near each other, but the third was near the hive that came through winter normally.


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## Oldtimer

Unusually high can mean many things, how many did you actually find?

Did the dead hives have any brood left in them?


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## rkereid

DubBub said:


> Possibly, but not likely. Use screened bottom boards and never find an unusually high number of mites. Plus, two lost hives were near each other, but the third was near the hive that came through winter normally.


Screen bottoms have a minimal effect. The only way to come close to an accurate mite count is by using an alcohol wash or maybe the sugar roll. You can't see all the phoretic mites, much less those in cells. What you see with naked eye is a very small percentage of what's there.


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## Paul McCarty

I gave up on screened bottoms. They did not make much difference to me. I think having genetically good bees and being away from chemicals is probably more important. The screened bottoms did good for reducing condensation, but tended to make the hive temp too variable in my mountain environment. They also let in dust really bad in the desert hives.


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## DubBub

Didn't count mites. Very little brood left on any of the frames. Re-thinking about screened bottom boards.


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## rkereid

DubBub said:


> Didn't count mites. Very little brood left on any of the frames. Re-thinking about screened bottom boards.


Screened bottoms, in my environment, have not been bad. I do cover them in winter, though air still gets around the covers. Half mine are solid, half screens. I don't see any difference in survivability. When it is hot, they may be somewhat helpful. Depending on your environment, you may need to compensate in winter to allow adequate ventilation when using solid bottoms.


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## hideawayranch

Here in the 4 Corners area of Colorado our Beekeepers Assoc has about a 50% loss rate from what I am hearing over all. The weather was rather mild as Colorado high country winters go. We are now having days in the 50's and the bees are out and about in a big way. Most of us are feeding our bees and most of us are chemical free. We can still get snow and freezing nights!


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## beemandan

DubBub said:


> Plus, two lost hives were near each other, but the third was near the hive that came through winter normally.


I didn’t really understand this.


DubBub said:


> Didn't count mites.


I don’t really care whether you treat or not but, in my opinion, it’s important to know the enemy.


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## squarepeg

probably not condensation, as there would have been dead bees left behind. my guess is queen failure. i had several of those this winter.


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## hlhart2014

How do you cover them...over the top of the screen or under? Thanks, Halley


rkereid said:


> Screened bottoms, in my environment, have not been bad. I do cover them in winter, though air still gets around the covers. Half mine are solid, half screens. I don't see any difference in survivability. When it is hot, they may be somewhat helpful. Depending on your environment, you may need to compensate in winter to allow adequate ventilation when using solid bottoms.


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## rkereid

I just slip a piece of political sign in the slot for the mite count board (under screen). It is not tight, lets some air in , but keeps the wind out.


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## DubBub

I use a sheet of hard, white plastic with vegetable oil on it underneath the screen.


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## Solomon Parker

I posted a picture on my blog that I took today of a hive being fed sugar. Looks pretty cool.

Still no losses to report. I don't think queen rearing will be as early this year. The weather hasn't been nearly as warm as it was last year. Last year I grafted during Spring Break. I seriously doubt it will happen before April this year. Time to bust out the old queen rearing spreadsheet and figure out timing.


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## Tom Davidson

Winter here in North Carolina's piedmont has been steady. In January to early February we were extremely warm for many consecutive days. I figured the bees would be more active and run out of stores more quickly so I fed candy, which they gobbled up. I had 6 treatment-free colonies, 3 of then nucs, going in. All are well except for one former nuc that had grown to be my heaviest hive for a deep and a half going in. I watched it dwindle and did nothing, hoping for the best. Last time I went in there were a handful of dead bees at the top, and tons of food available. No eggs or brood to be seen. I realized I most likely killed the queen on my last fall inspection, probably rolling her between frames or squishing her underneath. No queen body was found, and only a very few bees on the bottom board. Do you think I'm correct in my diagnosis of a mishap? I now realize the importance of acting when you must, for a box of bees is a box of bees, not a box of hope nor a box of failure.

Then the weather turned steadily cold, actually being the winter it's supposed to be here (which was a surprise to many who'd gotten used to the warmer springs of recent years). I emergency fed one colony that had gotten weak, after discovering my previous mishap. I contacted a master beekeeper on thin vs. heavy syrup, and he said it was a gamble either way. I went with thin, thinking it'd stimulate brood. It worked! It's been gaining strength and almost is up to snuff now. I'm impressed with it's stubborness to hang on. It's one of my Russian hives, so I'll split that to keep those good genetics this spring, if it's strong enough. My feral hive which went into winter with 3 frames of bees, on double-stacked 5-frame nucs, is amazing and one of my most active hives. I'm a believer now in the smaller, taller boxes.

I hoped for 75% survival rate out of my 6, and have gotten an 83% survival rate (so far, unless I do something bone-headed). I've also gotten an order for 1 nuc and inquiries on 3 more, which will be my first nucs ever sold. All in all a fabulous winter!


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## hlhart2014

Great idea...recycling is a good thing Couldn't you leave the plastic insert in?
QUOTE=rkereid;904807]I just slip a piece of political sign in the slot for the mite count board (under screen). It is not tight, lets some air in , but keeps the wind out.[/QUOTE]


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## rkereid

Halley L. Hart said:


> Great idea...recycling is a good thing Couldn't you leave the plastic insert in?
> QUOTE=rkereid;904807]I just slip a piece of political sign in the slot for the mite count board (under screen).


None of my screened bottom boards come with plastic inserts. I either make mine, or buy bulk unassembled. I'm a cheapskate.


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## Solomon Parker

Are you sure you're not just frugal or efficient? I like to eat regularly, it doesn't make me a glutton.


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## a+blessed+life

I have 9 hives, all overwintered very well. We are treatment free and have not fed any supplemental feed since 2011.


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## Oldtimer

Well I'm kinda opposite to you guys, it's fall here, going into winter.

Just checked all the treatment free hives today, not looking good some of them have a lot of mites, and even dead brood. So I'm thinking it's likely I'll lose some or all of them this winter. But I won't know till I try so will have to leave them to their fate & see what happens. The TF nucs are a mixed bag, there is at least one with a major mite problem but some of them are as good as gold. 

So I'll leave them too it, hopefully enough will survive that I can re-stock the dead ones. We'll see.


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## odfrank

>Just checked all the treatment free hives today, not looking good some of them have a lot of mites,

But your small cell hives are mite free, right?


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## Oldtimer

The treatment free hives are small cell. All the large cell hives get treated.


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## abejorro

7 hives going in and as of yesterday, 7 coming out of winter. It's not over yet, but I'm cautiously optimistic!


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## Solomon Parker

Latest check, all hives still alive. More and more flying days, though still fewer and later than last year. Later for queen rearing, but good sign for summer rains keeping clover alive.


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## Brent Strange

So far my winter here in Zone 8a went well. I started the winter with one full size hive and one nuc and both survived. I am planning on putting them in medium and not deeps soon but they are building up well and bringing in lots of pollen.


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## RiodeLobo

odfrank said:


> But your small cell hives are mite free, right?


:lpf:


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## Oldtimer

Yes I realised my answer to that was not actually clear. The small cell hives are the ones with worrying mite loads, and are also the treatment free ones.


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## Duranthas

I started beekeeping a bit late last year with 2 packages, all into 8 frame mediums on PF-125 frames. A record drought made it rough going so I fed heavily from mason jars through the top. At the end of the year one hive had only filled out 1 medium and 6 frames of a second, while the other hive had filled out 2 mediums and over half another. In early Jan we had an unusually warm streak so I made 20# candy boards and put them on both hives. Last Friday i checked them and found first hive exploding with bees so i added another medium. My girls are very dark mutts so I'm scared of heavy Russian swarm traits. The second hive still had a lot of uncapped/undrawn frames and not as explosive of a population so I left it alone for now. Since both hives are still going I guess I didn't screw anything major up. 2/2 so far....


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## Solomon Parker

I must amend my report to include one loss this season as winter is not over for a few days. 

Over the last two days I inspected my home yard and my south yard and I found one dead out in the south yard. If I had to wager a guess, I'd guess that they starved out this spring which is only their fault because I did not harvest from them last year. They were not good performers and they produced excessive propolis, so I won't miss them. An inspection of the bottom board yielded the largest number of beetles that I have ever seen in my hives, half a dozen living and two dozen dead. No larvae or signs of beetle damage.

This brings my loss total to 4.3 % this winter, continuing on my years long downward trend.

As for the rest of them, they all have capped brood, and most are doing quite well. Some have been set back by not having enough stores, most of which were due to being yearling hives. I am making mental notes as to which will become queen mothers and cell builders.


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## cg3

wrong thread


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## Bobcat

Checked both Yards and i am 6 for 6. 4 where nucs last year, 1 cut out and 1 trap out. 
My first winter as a beekeeper and glad to see they made it.


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## D Semple

I'm down 8 out of 41. 

7 of the losses are from one yard. :scratch: Won't be wintering bees in that yard ever again (poor fall forage).


Pollen and nectar should start coming in, here in KC in about 2 weeks. :applause:


Don


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## bevy's honeybees

I lost 1 of 17. 
I'm starting 4th year of beekeeping, aniversary of first hive on 3/25. My first three hives were treated for mites and I didn't treat with miticides. I treated antibiotics once early on, so most of my hives are treatment free.


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## Oldtimer

bevy's honeybees said:


> 4th year of beekeeping, aniversary of first hive on 3/25.


Only a female could know that, LOL!


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## dixiebooks

My worst fears are realized: I am down to one full colony and one nuc - down from a high of about 30 in 2012. Went into winter with 24 or so. Again, my fault. My work schedule didn't let me work them and get them up to weight where they needed to be. Mites didn't help. A close inspection of one deadout found mites on many of them. some had multiple mites. The mites had dug up underneath the plates of the abdomen of the bees. Well, I have two to work with for now until (hopefully) some swarm calls come in. -js


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## xcugat

Dixie did you do any mite counts?


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## dixiebooks

no. I just made note that there were lots of them, at least in that one colony. Can't say about the others. There were clear signs that starvation was the main culprit. -js


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## Oldtimer

Sorry to hear about that Dixiebooks, devastating, and probably a pretty emotional thing.

I would like to ask a question though, if I may. In your post, it sounds like you found mites in the abdominal plates of dead bees, is that what you were saying?

Just curious, I thought a mite if living, would abandon a dead bee. That was just an assumption though, keen to learn.


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## dixiebooks

Oldtimer: thanks, yes, pretty devastating. took a few years to build to that point and then this. Yes, the colony I found with mites had the mites up in the abdominal plates - all very well deceased. My guess is that when the bees ran out of food, they froze. When the bees froze, the mites froze. -js


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## Solomon Parker

How many can you confirm were killed by mites and how many starved?


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## dixiebooks

Solomon Parker said:


> How many can you confirm were killed by mites and how many starved?


Is it possible to confirm with 100% certainty? In my case, I think starvation was the primary factor. Mites were secondary. If a good portion of the bees are head-first in the cells and there is no honey or syrup present, I conclude starvation, regardless of the presence of mites. But am I absolutely certain of this? No. Perhaps as I gain more experience, I will be. -js


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## Solomon Parker

Seems like a fair assessment. Did you take any honey from these hives last year?


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## dixiebooks

From a few of them. Most were nucs. The colony I closely inspected and found mites was a very productive colony and I did take honey from it but also left them some honey. -js


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## heaflaw

heaflaw said:


> I have had a bad year. Lost 15 of 21 hives. Have been treatment free for 8 or 9 years. They seemed to have swindled until there were not enough bees in the cluster to keep warm. I did a check for varroa where I poured powdered sugar on them and counted the dropped mites on the sticky board. I only counted about 8 mites for each hive. I plan to send a sample of dead bees to Beltsville for testing. Maybe it was Nosema Ceranae? Any suggestions?
> 
> I'm very disheartened. I had planned to try raising queens and selling them and nucs this spring. I won't have enough bees and I also don't want to sell treatment free bees if they aren't.


I sent in samples of dead bees, live bees and comb with sealed brood to Beltsville Bee Lab. The results are a Nosema count of over 10 million spores per bee. They stated that 1 million is considered high. So, the conclusion seems to be that Nosema Ceranae was the cause of my high losses.

I am using UV light to kill spores on comb and woodenware on the deadouts. I will breed from the survivors and try to bring in survivors from outside.

Any comments?


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## Oldtimer

Well I just lost another 2 small cell hives. Took honey off them a month ago, inspected and set them up for winter with around a full deep of honey each. Some of them had mite levels that would have meant an immediate treatment, had they not been treatment free hives. Anyhow, got a call from the landowner yesterday, saying the bees were "very busy", plus there was a bunch of bees hanging on their barn.

Kind of knew what it must be, my heart sank. Drove out there, and sure enough, the two hives that were worst effected by mites were being robbed out. Took a look inside, brood showing severe pms nearly all cells affected. Surprised how fast they went down. The bunch of bees on the barn were gone, it's late fall here, can only assume they were absconders making a last ditch effort to survive.

Took a drive to where I have one solitary small cell hive, all on it's own. Opened it up expecting problems but all brood looked normal, plus there was no DWV. But then I noticed mites all over, one bee had 3 mites on it. Amazing, never seen anything like that in a hive seemingly so healthy. A few possibilities came to mind but here's two main ones. Maybe they just done some robbing of dying hives & picked up a heap of mites but it's not been long enough to do damage? Or, they have mites, but not the viruses mites spread so are able to tolerate a much higher number. Any thoughts?


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## Roland

Inspect frequently and report back.

Crazy Roland


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## squarepeg

i had the same two thoughts ot, and the third is that maybe they have some inherent resistance to the viruses.

time will tell.

sorry to hear about the losses already, as you are only a couple of weeks into fall there.

what were the mite levels last month?


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## Oldtimer

Well I didn't do a count last month, just noticed some pms although only the odd cell at that time & normal brood hatching.

Re the other hive, yes did also wonder about possible virus resistance, it's one of the things we should be breeding for, not just mite resistance.

Yes I'll watch this hive & report back.


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## odfrank

How can it be? SC bees don't get mites and are more resistant to secondary diseases. Dee, Barry and Michael told us so again and again.


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## Aerindel

3 of 3 made it. Winter was mild. All hives where three mediums, foundationless. Each was weighed two weeks ago when we had our first days that where warm enough for bees to fly. Weights ranged from 101-110 pounds. With equipment weight subtracted that leaves about fifty lbs of bees and honey in each hive.

As far as I can tell I have no mites at all, at least none found on the bottom board. I am also pretty remote, to my knowledge there are no other bees within five miles.


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## beemandan

OT....maybe you can get Barry to do a sticky for your treatment free experiment thread. As it stands....your reports are likely to get scattered throughout other threads and much of the important continuity will be lost.
I, for one, truly appreciate an open minded trial but don't want to have to search the entire site to find your posts.


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## Barry

Oldtimer said:


> Well I just lost another 2 small cell hives.


How many does that leave you?


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## Barry

odfrank said:


> How can it be? SC bees don't get mites and are more resistant to secondary diseases. Dee, Barry and Michael told us so again and again.


Is it cold and rainy where you are? Odfrank wants to make sure we don't forget where he stands on the issue!


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## Barry

4 of my 9 hives died this winter. One was very small and weak last fall (did a bunch of splits last year) and I didn't expect it to survive, and I'm pretty sure I killed one this late winter that I fed via baggie and forgot to check. Appears to have dripped down onto the cluster.


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## Tom Davidson

heaflaw said:


> So, the conclusion seems to be that Nosema Ceranae was the cause of my high losses.
> 
> I am using UV light to kill spores on comb and woodenware on the deadouts.


What equipment is used and how is this done, heaflaw? Are there any other manipulations we should do with spare combs and frames that are 1-3 years old to make sure we are putting in disease-free equipment into our hives? This wouldn't consistute a "treatment" would it, since it's occurring on hardware outside of the hive? Thanks for the insights.


----------



## Oldtimer

Barry said:


> How many does that leave you?


Well from a peak of 9 hives there are 3 left. Although I have a confession, there were 4 small cell hives at my house being used as queen cell raisers. They began getting high mite levels that would have affected queen cell quality, so I treated them. So they are out as far as being treatment free hives now. So out of the 9, 2 lost, 4 treated so out of the program, 2 alive but not looking good, and one being the one looking fine, but a heckuva lot of mites.

I have a feeling they may all be lost come spring. However I have 21 sc TF nucs. Long as some of those survive I will restock the dead hives, and in fact I would see that as a move towards sustainability, ie taking some hard knocks but surviving. However if I lose every single last bee, I will be giving it up. 

But let's see where this goes.


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## dixiebooks

dixiebooks said:


> My worst fears are realized: I am down to one full colony and one nuc - down from a high of about 30 in 2012. Went into winter with 24 or so. Again, my fault. My work schedule didn't let me work them and get them up to weight where they needed to be. Mites didn't help. A close inspection of one deadout found mites on many of them. some had multiple mites. The mites had dug up underneath the plates of the abdomen of the bees. Well, I have two to work with for now until (hopefully) some swarm calls come in. -js


UPDATE: I did the survey yesterday and checked my log book. I actually had only 18 living colonies on 1 OCT 2012. so, the other 12 perished prior to that date. Still, down to one full colony and one very small nuc. Weather had turned very cold here over last couple of days and it actually snowed/slushed yesterday and many things were in bloom. Not looking good for this year. -js


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## D Semple

I'm down 12 out of 41, with 2 more that look weak (ouch). Finally pollen coming in this week so the worst may be over. 

All but 3 of the losses are from the same bee yard. No pollen in the dead outs at that yard, drought and poor fall forage, I should have moved that yard to a better location. Some dead mites on the bottom boards but not many. Treatment free beginner mistakes are expensive.

Surviving hives look good.


Bummed regards. ....Don


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## Oldtimer

"Bummed Regards" LOL

At least you are still smiling.


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## rwurster

Even though it looks like you're off to an incredibly hard start with all the losses I wish you the best.


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## heaflaw

Tom Davidson said:


> What equipment is used and how is this done, heaflaw? Are there any other manipulations we should do with spare combs and frames that are 1-3 years old to make sure we are putting in disease-free equipment into our hives? This wouldn't consistute a "treatment" would it, since it's occurring on hardware outside of the hive? Thanks for the insights.


I am setting wooden ware and frames with empty comb in the sun. Of course, once the weather turns too warm, I can't do it because the wax will melt. I purchased a black light and am shining that on the combs with honey/sugar water/pollen and turning the frames different ways every few hours. Here's where I got my information:

http://www.extension.org/pages/63774/sunlight-water-and-nosema-spores

http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/CAPArticle6.html

Also, I read somewhere ( I can't find the article now) that bees that ingested dead spores developed a resistance to Nosema Ceranae. So, I hope that I am not ony preventing them from dying of Nosema this season, but making them resistant long term.


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## Tom Davidson

heaflaw said:


> I am setting wooden ware and frames with empty comb in the sun. Of course, once the weather turns too warm, I can't do it because the wax will melt. I purchased a black light and am shining that on the combs with honey/sugar water/pollen and turning the frames different ways every few hours. Here's where I got my information:...


Thanks, heaflaw!


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## Oldtimer

After the disappointment with my treatment free hives, went and checked the small cell treatment free nucs yesterday. Was kinda expecting the worst.

However, pleasant surprise! of the 21, 3 were queenless, as the last round of queen cells that went in around a month ago, 3 had failed to mate. So I pulled dividers and combined them with their neighbors. Last time I went there, when caged queens and planted cells a month ago, a number of nucs were looking poorly with mites, pms and dwv. This time, amazingly, all those nucs were fine. Not a sign of a mite.

Just wish somebody new how that works.

Just one nuc, one that had a few mites last time but was not the worst, is now looking pretty bad, really do doubt it will make the winter but have left it, to see.

Only bad thing that happened, winter's around the corner so all nucs that needed it were given a comb of honey. From somewhere and I don't know where, hoards of robbers showed up & all nucs were getting harassed. Nothing much I could do just shut everything and got out of there.

Feeling a bit better now, it's looking pretty likely there will be surviving small cell treatment free nucs next spring to restock the deadout small cell hives.

I have a question for you treatment free folks. I'll have to store the deadout hives over winter, with black combs, pollen, and dead brood, perfect wax moth fodder. If I do nothing, by spring, these will be totally destroyed by wax moths. What I normally do if storing anything that will attract wax moths, is put a fume board on top of the stack, and once a month or so I'll put a little formic acid on the fume board, kills any wax moths. Is that considered a treatment? and if it is what should I do? (deep freeze is out of the question). Oh by the way winters here are mild, wax moths are very active all winter.


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## squarepeg

great report ot, very encouraging.

i have been storing mine in my garage, with the boxes turned on end and no bottom or top so that the light can get in.

i have a freezer, but only so much room, so i have been rotating them.

do you think after freezing that some kind of mosquito netting would keep the moths out?


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## RiodeLobo

Or store them on a tx free hive. I believe that is the approach that Solomon uses.


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## Oldtimer

I don't actually own a deep freeze.


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## Oldtimer

Hi Rio, I think that works for Sol because of his cold winters.

For me, the 2 hives I have left (which may yet be lost), would not be able to cover all the combs in the other boxes if I put them on, and the weather is warm enough wax moths would run amuck.


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## dixiebooks

Oldtimer said:


> I don't actually own a deep freeze.


Could you rotate just the frames through your kitchen freezer? It would take a lot longer but perhaps better than nothing.

A couple years ago, I acquired some old window screens (the kind with a metal frame) that someone had tossed out. I stacked a few boxes and put on a screen then a few more boxes then another screen, etc. My theory was that if one box did have wax moth eggs that hatched, they would be limited to just a few boxes. -js


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## Oldtimer

Well it's possible Dixiebooks, although I have not put this suggestion to the "primary user of the kitchen" yet LOL.

Screens can work, sometimes. But being a cheapskate, I'm probably looking for an easier, and foolproof way. Reading a past thread on the treatment free forum, acetic acid and bleach were not considered treatments when used to sterilize equipment not in use, so I may just pump for a bit of formic in the boxes long as it's not used on any actual bees.


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## dixiebooks

Yes, it is a PITA running them through the kitchen freezer. That is why I pried the wallet out of my pocket and bought a freezer. Initially looked for a good used one but wound up getting a new one at sears. I was able to get 6 months or something with no interest. So far, it is one of the best beekeeping tools I have bought to date. -js


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## Oldtimer

dixiebooks said:


> That is why I pried the wallet out of my pocket and bought a freezer.


LOL 

I can tell when I'm being got at, albeit in the nicest possible way.


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## dixiebooks

NAH! I was getting at myself. I never met anyone more stingy... I mean, thrifty...than myself. lol -js


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## Tom Davidson

I simply stack up the supers outside with frames and combs, and unimpeded air flow prevents the problem. Wax moths hate air flow, and sun. It's worked for me. I just used two 1x2's inbetween each box (sometimes bed slats ... hey, it's what I had on hand at the time), but it was during winter. Rain was not a problem. Just put a top on the top box and the air flow will dry out any combs on the edges that get a little rain.


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## D Semple

Oldtimer said:


> However, pleasant surprise! of the 21, 3 were queenless, as the last round of queen cells that went in around a month ago, 3 had failed to mate. So I pulled dividers and combined them with their neighbors. Last time I went there, when caged queens and planted cells a month ago, a number of nucs were looking poorly with mites, pms and dwv. *This time, amazingly, all those nucs were fine. Not a sign of a mite.
> 
> Just wish somebody new how that works.*



Careful now Kiwi, you are going to spoil your master plan.


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## Tom Davidson

Is there anything about keeping bees in nucs that keep the mite levels down? My mite counts on my double-stacked nuc boxes were lower %-wise last summer than my standard deeps. Or was it luck of the draw?


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## rwurster

I removed a section of the roof on my storage shed and replaced it with clear corrugated plastic panels. I hang frames from the bottoms of the trusses so that air and light get to them which keeps wax moth damage to an absolute minimum. Sometimes I lose a frame of good comb if the wind knocks a frame down and the comb breaks, I also get dirt/dust in the combs while they hang... Airflow and sunlight


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## Oldtimer

OK well I'll do it, store them with plenty ventilation & see what happens. I'll be watching like a hawk though, a lot of effort went into getting those small cell combs.



Tom Davidson said:


> Is there anything about keeping bees in nucs that keep the mite levels down? My mite counts on my double-stacked nuc boxes were lower %-wise last summer than my standard deeps. Or was it luck of the draw?


There has always been less mites in my nucs than the hives, whether treated, or not. I think it's because the nucs get constant brood breaks, every time a queen is removed and they are given a new queen cell.

There is also something about location, some of my sites the bees (treated or not), get less mites, than at other sites. It is easy to understand about the nucs with brood breaks, how location affects is less clear.


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