# How many queens



## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

For a newbie to queen rearing how many queens do you think is a good number to run over winter remembering our winters are not 
as harsh as yours.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you restate your question?


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

Basically as someone starting out to rear queens for a first season how many queens are a good number to start with would 100 be to much.


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## thebeemanuk (Oct 16, 2014)

Daznz said:


> Basically as someone starting out to rear queens for a first season how many queens are a good number to start with would 100 be to much.


Hi
The best number to rear is as many as you need or sell


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

How many queens you want to raise depends on how many hives you have or want to have.
Remember that the nuc hive also count as one to use a good queen too. Let's say
you have 10 production hive then you have 10 queens. Then if you want to make 
5 more nuc hives then another 5 queens you will need. If you want to requeen all
of them later in the season then you will need a total of 15 queens. Because queen
making is so simple it depends on how you like to use them to make that many. If you
plan to sell the mated queens then it is another story to make more of them. I think the
number of queens you keep depends on the purpose of making them in the first place.
Does this make any sense to you? A typical over winter hive will need 1 queen only but
with supporting nucs will ensure a queen right hive in case of a over winter loss.


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

beepro said:


> How many queens you want to raise depends on how many hives you have or want to have.
> Remember that the nuc hive also count as one to use a good queen too. Let's say
> you have 10 production hive then you have 10 queens. Then if you want to make
> 5 more nuc hives then another 5 queens you will need. If you want to requeen all
> ...


Yes I understand that it was probably a stupid question  Yea I want to over winter them for me and sell some as well i'm thinking 100. I just hope i'm not biting off more than I can chew


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Hey, nobody is perfect, alright.
I'm neither but we are still keeping bees, eh.
What you want to know is how many queens is needed to increase your operation, right.
Then assess what you have available and from there how much you can expand your hives thru one 
season. It is important to know the resources (pollen and nectar) available on which months while you
are grafting the queens. i.e. Let's say for 4 months in a year you have enough outside resources to make
some good queens. Then divide this operation in 4 different batches for the queen making process. Each month
make some queens to do the splits. How many splits you can make depends on how much resources and equipments
you have available to expand. Don't worry about expanding too fast because you can always scale down by combining
the hives to make more honey at the right timing. I did it in one season from 1 to 7 to 3 hives.


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

beepro said:


> Hey, nobody is perfect, alright.
> I'm neither but we are still keeping bees, eh.
> What you want to know is how many queens is needed to increase your operation, right.
> Then assess what you have available and from there how much you can expand your hives thru one
> ...


Cheers thanks for that info I am in an area that has a lot of recourses around it and I plant big areas of bee food the produces a lot of honey and pollen so I think the bees and I should do well


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

How do you plan to overwinter them? Your two choices are in a colony of some kind (from a nuc to a full size colony) or in a bank. The bank is more problematic if it's cold enough for the bees to cluster, but it's not impossible.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

I went from 2 to 200 hives in my first 4 years beekeeping by catching swarms, making splits, and raising queens. I bought no packages or nucs along the way and started selling nucleus colonies my second year with overwintered queens. Beekeeping is what you put in to it!!! Cash and time!  My opinion, set your goals high but be the type of person to say, "hey I didn't reach my goals but I did real good and here is where I can make improvements." :thumbsup: Like already mentioned it is easy to scale back by combining hives or selling extras. Mating nucs are easy to combine at the end of the year or just overwinter them. Your only limited on how much daylight you have available, how much money you are willing to invest, how much equipment you have, and an understanding spouse. Start slow and learn the process and fine tune your schedule then jump in. You'll learn quick from your successes and failures. Good luck!


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

I'm looking at running MPs 4 way system


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

Cheers for your help Dan


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Daz - I think you get the hint from Pine Ridge and others that we need to know how many colonies you have to give you an answer. If you have only 2 colonies, it will be a while before you can make 100 queens.

If there are plenty of feral bees in your area, you'll be able to mate quite a few easily, but the limiting factor is usually how many frames of drawn comb you have with brood to donate to a new colony, frames with pollen for a new colony to raise brood from, or just plain enough bees to populate a colony in the first place?

If I breed from a colony that is 2 boxes tall, starts out in January at 14 frames with brood (usually 8 solid brood, others between half and full), 5 1/2 of honey, 1 1/2 of pollen, I can split it into 4 colonies of 5 frames, but I need more pollen frames. These can be made from empty drawn comb by sprinkling bought pollen into the empty comb and carefully placing it in the hive.

Lots of beekeepers start with "baby nuc's" and a 32-ounce cup of bees with a queen cell. Not surprisingly, newcomers to the game don't have much luck with this strategy - it takes a while to know how to get this plan just right. Most would be better off with a 4- or 5-frame nucleus colony. It also takes the bees a long time to get up to speed with baby nuc's, and they usually miss the major part of the spring nectar flow because they don't have enough bees yet. It is usually best to err on the side of a stronger colony than a smaller colony.

I'd suggest building plenty of boxes, frames, and screened bottom board pallets, and getting ahead of the bees, ready to split and house any swarms you catch. Sure, get ready for 100 colonies, but get what bees you can and take very good care of them. For me, 100 colonies means 500 medium boxes, 5,000 medium frames, 100 frame feeders, 100 moving/robbing screens, 100 Laidlaw queen introduction cages, 4 solar wax melters, 100 bags of cane sugar, and 3 friends with small ranches who want/tolerate bees, not to mention a truck and a trailer. You'll know when you need a honey room, you can make make comb honey or crush-and-strain in the meantime, but it would be a good idea to have the money ready beforehand - the equipment is not cheap.

Running queens adds a few items - 10 queen bank frames and 200 queen cages need to be ready, you may want a Cloake Board or two, 200 Queen cell cups, 4 queen cell frames, and your all-important queen callendar. If selling the nucleus colonies, maybe the waxed cardboard boxes are the cheapest, but if they'll overwinter, use wood or styrofoam nuc's. I make my own queen cell cups, so a double boiler and a forming stick "rake" is busy during the winter. If selling the queens with attendants, you could make a worker bee dispenser to package 7 or 8 bees to go with the queens. Don't forget queen cages.

Do contact your countryman, Oldtimer up in the Auckland area, he's been at it a while, and get his advise and encouragement. Nothing like an experienced mentor!

Best of luck!


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

I have 5 colonies and are getting stronger day by day I have made some of MPs nuc boxes ( brood factorys) I intend to split into these. I'm going to make 25 boxes split for ways to raise the queens over winter I have all the frames and boxes. I'm sure I will be able to make a strong cell builder from these resources as I am working on building me bee's this season not chasing honey. I plan on selling most the queens


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## GusK (Jan 24, 2013)

Daznz said:


> I have 5 colonies and are getting stronger day by day I have made some of MPs nuc boxes ( brood factorys) I intend to split into these. I'm going to make 25 boxes split for ways to raise the queens over winter I have all the frames and boxes. I'm sure I will be able to make a strong cell builder from these resources as I am working on building me bee's this season not chasing honey. I plan on selling most the queens



I am a beginner, been beekeeping since 2012. Started with 4 hives, have sixteen now. I tried various methods of increase - walk away, cut down, mda/OTS, and now grafting. I too have a mild winter. My bees collect pollen year round. Every winter I do something similar to what you are doing. In late October, early November, during the fleabane and Fall heather flow, I split my colonies hard, and the hives that survive are usually really strong come Spring. My take percentage is low, and survival percentage low as well. 50-60% and 70% respectively. But the queens that do make it are worth it. It's my method of bottom up natural selection. Top down selection is choosing which hives to breed from initially.

Mine is a slow growth process, and I have done this for 4-5 generations of queens, but my hives, come Spring, are double the size of other local beekeepers' hives.

You will not get 100 queens. I sort of guessed that from your first post, due to the lack of info you provided. If you were more well read on the topic, or had more experience, you would have volunteered more info, because you would "know what you don't know." Right now, you don't know what you don't know. No worries, you will find out soon, and although it will be difficult, it will be the best learning process. But you need to read... a lot. 

I think you're counting your chickens before they hatch, so to speak. You're mating nucs will be really weak. I doubt all 100 of them will have brood frames if you only have 5 hives now. Such broodless mating nucs in queen castles don't have a high success rate. Those bees will move next door. You will be lucky to get 25 - 50% take on each of those.

I can write more, but it's already been written. You need to read up on it. Good luck though. Oh, one more thing. Winter even when it is mild, is still winter. Two frame nucs in queen castles are still vulnerable. Re-equalize everything as you find out which are duds, and which are not. I have successfully overwintered 3 frame mating nucs housed in individual deeps, not queen castle (with foam insulated lids and a sheet of foam next to the last empty frame). Those queens barely increased over the winter, they just held their own, and cold hardy Carnies that they are, exploded in the Spring.

Maybe your area is different. If you know someone that has successfully accomplished what your are attempting to do, then disregard what I have written. If not, prepare yourself for a stream of daily surprises...


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

GusK said:


> I am a beginner, been beekeeping since 2012. Started with 4 hives, have sixteen now. I tried various methods of increase - walk away, cut down, mda/OTS, and now grafting. I too have a mild winter. My bees collect pollen year round. Every winter I do something similar to what you are doing. In late October, early November, during the fleabane and Fall heather flow, I split my colonies hard, and the hives that survive are usually really strong come Spring. My take percentage is low, and survival percentage low as well. 50-60% and 70% respectively. But the queens that do make it are worth it. It's my method of bottom up natural selection. Top down selection is choosing which hives to breed from initially.
> 
> Mine is a slow growth process, and I have done this for 4-5 generations of queens, but my hives, come Spring, are double the size of other local beekeepers' hives.
> 
> ...


Cheers I understand what you are saying I know I have a lot to learn but I am building these bees up over our spring/summer surely I can build up some strong nucs and build a cell builder hive and make some cells or am I dreaming ??


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## GusK (Jan 24, 2013)

My bad. You're right, you have an entire season to grow these hives, which increases your probability of making decent increase. But, it will be difficult. I think going from 5 hives to 100 2-frame queenright nucs in a season is a stretch, but I have only been doing this three years.... maybe someone else can answer that.


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

Cheers Gusk, Yeah mate what will happen will happen if it doesn't happen to that number I don't mind it's all a season of learning for me.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

DAZ-
With 5 strong colonies, going into late springtime / early summer as you are, I'd try to run 1 cell builder colony with either one queen cell deep frame (the kind with 3 bars, 48 cells) you could repeat at least 4 or 5 days apart, or (depending colony strength) as many as 2 medium queen cell frames (32 cells each). This should put you in just under 100 total queen cells, from which you might end up with anywhere from 25 to 100 successful, mated queens, but most likely between 40 to 60 of them. The other 3 hives will used for support, donating capped brood, and perhaps temporarily uncapped brood for getting the nurse bees to go up to where the grafts will be placed.

I, personally, prefer to set up my nuc's with stronger populations than baby nuc's. I give mine 4 medium frames (2 capped brood, 1 honey, 1 pollen) + a frame feeder tank, or 5 medium frames (2 capped brood, 1 open brood, 1 honey, 1 pollen) plus 64 oz of bees.

This means I usually split my donor hives into 4 nuc's, not 10. Michael Palmer probably gets 10 nuc's from 1 large colony, but he has 3 or 4 people working for him, and 30 + years experience (my experience started in Jan. of 2008). He is also working with something like 150 colonies in his queen yard, I don't know how many total colonies he operates, but it's more than me.

I doubt you will have enough bee resources for 100 queens with 5 colonies. I'd opt for 20 to 25 target colonies if the year's rainfall was good and the nectar flow was strong. If you are set up to be mobile, you may also take advantage of New Zealand's first springtime in the north, and second springtime in the South, building those nuc's up good and strong.

You can split thinner than that and try to make, say 60 or more nuc's, but it is far more challenging for a tiny colony of bees to succeed if anything (or everything) goes wrong. Colony strength is an issue for Nucleus colonies. Bee colony labor division greatly favors larger populations, so give thin splits lots of advantages, especially raising them in the main thick of the springtime nectar / pollen flow.

You might also experiment - try some baby nuc's, some 3-frame mating nuc's, some 4- framer's, some 5 framer's...see how things go this year and begin fine-tuning next year. You might also leave one colony untouched, just to have a benchmark to measure against (you'll probably have to split this one as soon as they start back-filling brood chamber cells with honey at some point in the spring / summer).

Best of luck!


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

Cheers Charlie, Thanks for your help and great info. over the weekend I made 3 of MPs nucs(brood factory's) I added mated queens to 2 of them and cell in the other. so once those start to fire up that will help things a long I will make as many as I can with in reason I'm looking forward to over wintering these and see how they come out the other end.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Good on ya, mate. Stay in touch - I'd love to hear how many work out on the practical end. 

2 questions: 1) so, is that 12 colonies started, or 3 colonies started? 2) Are you a North Islander or South Islander?


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

Just another 3 mate. I'm in the North Island


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