# Anybody Using the vmvaporizer to treat for mites?



## Brian Suchan

me too, interested to hear how it works


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## DirtyLittleSecret

Brian Suchan said:


> me too, interested to hear how it works


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jY3f8BzLw-k

I don't know if I'd want to be walking around in a cloud of OA. . Though looks interesting for sure.


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## Brian Suchan

Let me rephrase that i watched the movie on the website. Just wondering how much of that is done on the large scale. And how effective it is. Is that the unit that costs $3k?


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## high rate of speed

Not real effective on a large scale


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## Brian Suchan

Not real effective or too time comsuming??


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## Chip Euliss

Brian Suchan said:


> Let me rephrase that i watched the movie on the website. Just wondering how much of that is done on the large scale. And how effective it is. Is that the unit that costs $3k?


That's the one. Anybody with any experience with the unit?


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## MNbees

anyone ??????????


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## MNbees

high rate of speed said:


> Not real effective on a large scale


Why do you say this?


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## Chip Euliss

The beeinformed group tried to evaluate it last year but the bees had low mite loads prior to the evaluation so it wasn't a valid test. Their website says another evaluation is planned but it doesn't say when. Assuming the device heats to the correct sublimation temp, it should work if the dosage isn't overly critical. The big difference is that it actively pumps the vapor into the hive versus a passive unit that vaporizes a specific dose. Seems to work fast enough for commercial application.


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## high rate of speed

Don't mean to sound like an owl.but for who? What commercial outfits?


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## Chip Euliss

high rate of speed said:


> Don't mean to sound like an owl.but for who? What commercial outfits?


Not sure what you mean but my question referred to any outfit with a large number of hives to treat. Current mite treatments require that you open the hive, generally break two boxes apart, put in a treatment and often do the same to remove the treatment. The website for the vaporizer I was asking about doesn't require you to open the hive and they claim they can treat well over a 100 hives in less than an hour. If it works, that would be attractive to me and probably other.


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## MNbees

Yes it seems easy and cheap and quick. I went ahead and bought one so we will see how it works.


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## Chip Euliss

Cool. Does it look to be well made?


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## beesohappy

I'm curious also. I look forward to hearing your review.


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## mark g

Mine arrived yesterday looks very well made.


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## Chip Euliss

Cool. Let us know how it works for you. I'm optimistic that we'll get a decent tool for commercial beekeepers and this may be the ticket.


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## Flyer Jim

Well ,did anybody try this thing out? Just wondering if this vaporizer works.


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## Chip Euliss

There's another one out there that a friend has used and says it works very well. If you google Lega Italy, you can see their catalog and the vaporizer. Their's uses a 220v heat gun and they claim it will treat 60-80 hives/hour. They will sell you just the vaporizer if you want to buy a 120v heat gun. The Steinel brand will fit their vaporizer so you don't have to modify anything to make it work. The vaporizer runs about $250 and a 120v gun is about $150. They have a person who speaks English but email seems the best way to communicate. The red part in the image is the vaporizer and they will sell it separately if you email them. They are out of stock till September I hear.


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## mark g

After using the vaporizer for two weeks here is what i have found. It takes about 10-15 seconds to gas a 1 1/2 story hive. I have done a couple of sticky boards and alcohol washes.
Sticky board #1 from 109 mites to 328, #2 138 mites to 534 after 24 hrs, I tried to count the whole board on each. Alcohol washes, #1 from 10% to6%, #2 from 6% to 3%, #3 from 7%to 3%, 
#4 from 6% to 0%, #5 from 6% to 2%. I took wash samples from open brood frames about 200 to 300 bees per sample. Hives were treated 3 times approx. 5-6 days apart. We have had terrible weather starting this spring in Texas and until a couple of weeks ago here in Nebraska i guess the mites liked it though. I did do an OA dribble around Christmas, the bees did go to the almonds, but no spring treatment was used, but i never have used one in the past 100% new queens. I will be vaporizing my nucs next spring for sure.


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## Brian Suchan

Those look like good results! You got your honey crop off already?


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## acbz

So these mite count results were taken after 3 successive OA vapor applications per hive? Looks like around a 40-60% kill. Seems pretty labor intensive when recommendations are to keep mite levels below 2%. I'm all for OA and I use it myself, but I can't see doing three applications per hive within two weeks to achieve a marginal level of mite control in late summer. Thanks for posting your sample data Mark G, it's very informative. Do you plan to continue using OA vaporization? What we really need is an effective bio-control for varroa.


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## Chip Euliss

Looks very promising, especially since you treated when there should have been lots of capped brood to protect the mites from the OA vapors. Treatment when the hives are mostly broodless should work very well. Thanks for posting your findings!


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## Double_Bee

Just got one at the beginning of the week, if you allow it to heat properly and be sure to let it cool fully when cleaning/clean often it seems to work pretty good. Will clog up sometimes, just allow to cool and clean it out. The design seems somewhat crude but I was able to treat about 400 hives on my own today.


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## Chip Euliss

I'd be satisfied with getting 400 hives done in a day! By myself, I doubt I could put apivar strips in 400 hives in a day!


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## kengineer

To me, this looks like something NASA developed, the generator and compressor, along with clouds of acid may not be the best way? Is this engineering gone wild? Moving the support gear to do hives may get tiring and add to the time required?


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## Double_Bee

We just leave the generator and the compressor on the tailgate, the cord and air hose they send is plenty long to string out and cover our yards which generally hold somewhere between 32-48 hives that are spread apart decently. All you really have to manage is keeping the cords where you want them and keeping your vaporizer loaded, pretty simple!


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## mark g

What honey Brian? Between mites and weather taking it in the shorts this year! And yes Chip hives are packed with brood, looks like a very useful tool for spring nuc cleaning.


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## Chip Euliss

mark g said:


> What honey Brian? Between mites and weather taking it in the shorts this year! And yes Chip hives are packed with brood, looks like a very useful tool for spring nuc cleaning.



Sounds good Mark; thanks for all the good information. Just back from vacation (40th wedding anniversary) yesterday and pulling honey now. Crop looks much better than last year. Using Apivar strips but plan on OAV in the spring if ND gets it approved by then.


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## Sticky stele

Chip Euliss said:


> View attachment 20578
> 
> 
> There's another one out there that a friend has used and says it works very well. If you google Lega Italy, you can see their catalog and the vaporizer. Their's uses a 220v heat gun and they claim it will treat 60-80 hives/hour. They will sell you just the vaporizer if you want to buy a 120v heat gun. The Steinel brand will fit their vaporizer so you don't have to modify anything to make it work. The vaporizer runs about $250 and a 120v gun is about $150. They have a person who speaks English but email seems the best way to communicate. The red part in the image is the vaporizer and they will sell it separately if you email them. They are out of stock till September I hear.


What is the website for this vaporizer?


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## Chip Euliss

Sticky stele said:


> What is the website for this vaporizer?


http://www.legaitaly.com/en/cart/ap...atore-professionale-ad-aria-calda-220v-detail

There is an English version but I couldn't find it tonight. The web address does have a pdf on instructions and there is an English verion included.


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## jean-marc

The website claims up to 300 hives per hour. That is good in my opinion. This would be in a large holding yard, I suppose,maybe with a helper moving the lines and the equipment.
Double Bee, when youdid your 400 hives in a day, I suppose you were driving a bit between yards of 20-40 hives?
Now is the time to get the varroa, colonies depending on your location, are more or less broodless. Efficacy of 95% can be achieved at this time.
Thinking of getting myself one.

Jean-Marc


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## swarm_trapper

double bee are the vapors bad to the operator? or not noticeable?


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## jean-marc

For sure the vapors are bad. You will inhaleonly once, go into a coughing fit, survive the unpleasantness and swear to yourself that you will never do that again.
I am wondering if anybody has used it in cooler weather. Best time to treat is around now... no brood... but I noticed that all those who have posted so far are using it in summer or even the maker was using it in almond pollination, nt exactly cold/cool weather. I wonder if the vapours would sublimate back into crytals inside the tube before making it into the hive. I am sure some would make it to the hives but I think the machine would plug up sooner and would require cleaning... thereby slowing one down. Anybody?

Jean-Marc


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## Brian Suchan

glad this is back on top. I been wanting to know results from guys doin this oa vapor back in august? Was it worth it?


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## Chip Euliss

I wound up buying the Lega Italy vaporizer. It was back ordered and didn't get here in time to evaluate. I have a few hives I'll winter so plan to give them a "Hail Mary" treatment soon since they're already wrapped for wintering. I will be in California in early January and will give the bees I shipped a treatment. Probably won't get time to do a proper evaluation until next spring. Like Brian, I'm interested in how the vmvaporizer treatments worked out for those who used it.


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## jean-marc

I just ordered one. will be at the border soon... then the airfilter a few days later. I think I will put it through it's paces soon. Got the respirators, a compressor a generator and an extension cord. Tomorrow I will order a large sac of oxalic acid. Hopefully at some point I will be able to try it out towards the end of next week. I will be sure to give you guys a report.

Jean-Marc


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## G B

Tagging in. I have been interested in OA vaporization for quite a while.


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## EastSideBuzz

I have used them. They wipe the car battery after about 8 hives. I run two of them at a time. need to charge the next day. They also burn the bottom board sometimes.


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## RDY-B

DirtyLittleSecret said:


> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jY3f8BzLw-k
> 
> I don't know if I'd want to be walking around in a cloud of OA. . Though looks interesting for sure.


Heres the part i fall in love with at 305-317the guy lifts a lid and low and behold a pink amitraz grease paty
what will the think of next-- ---rdy-b


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## babybee

I am interested, also. I purchased a couple of these a few years ago used them in one yard (a test run), then went back that night and there were no dead mites on the pallet decks when I tipped them up. I will use them again if people get results. I do think if I were using them again I would fill the hive with vapor and then plug the entrance similar to the way the battery type vaporizers recommend.


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## zhiv9

I purchased the Lega unit this year and used it when wrapping the hives instead of OA dribble. It takes less than 20 seconds per hive. It's hard to gauge its effectiveness as it was a final cleanup. I had already treated earlier in the fall. I'd like to do more of a comparative study at some point - treating half the hives with dribble and the other half with vapour.


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## gmcharlie

The comment was made early on that the commercial guys don't want to do 3-4 treatments. While that is tech correct, right not Taccit (amatraz) is failing so fast, they are dusting off the VME units. One of my good friends runs 10k hives in CA and is up to 6 treatments a year with Tackit. he is now testing teh VM unit as not many choices left. Only 2 rounds in and Unfortunately CA haves are full of brood now so no real results to report.
I have been useing the Varrox unit for 3 years, I run 8 of them at a time. and don't dip them in cold water to chill them. I love the results, But I have killed a cpl hives burning bottom board and melting plastic frames. Results are good, but you have to watch close. Mine are done during our broodless period so I get a fantastic kill rate. Bees are very clean going into spring


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## beemandan

babybee said:


> then went back that night and there were no dead mites on the pallet decks when I tipped them up.


From what I've seen with oav the mite drop doesn't begin in earnest for several days after treating.


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## jim lyon

lazybhoney said:


> The comment was made early on that the commercial guys don't want to do 3-4 treatments. While that is tech correct, right not Taccit (amatraz) is failing so fast, they are dusting off the VME units. One of my good friends runs 10k hives in CA and is up to 6 treatments a year with Tackit. he is now testing teh VM unit as not many choices left. Only 2 rounds in and Unfortunately CA haves are full of brood now so no real results to report.
> I have been useing the Varrox unit for 3 years, I run 8 of them at a time. and don't dip them in cold water to chill them. I love the results, But I have killed a cpl hives burning bottom board and melting plastic frames. Results are good, but you have to watch close. Mine are done during our broodless period so I get a fantastic kill rate. Bees are very clean going into spring


How long per treatment?


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## MNbees

I have the VM unit and started using it late August for the first time. If you operate it correctly and give all hives an even adequate dose 
(white thick vapor) its only about 4 seconds per hive. After about 8 hives you need to let it warm back up a little bit (about 30 seconds).
I then flip up side down and bang on it with my hive tool, then ad another large scoop for another 8-10 hives. All in all it is very fast.

Results seem to be good and can say that mite drop is the biggest about 36 hours after treatment and seems to continue for a few more days.
It does kill some beetles but not enough. 
I think ideal treatment conditions are low wind and cool enough that the bees aren't flying much but not so cold that they are in a tight cluster.


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## Keith Jarrett

lazybhoney said:


> One of my good friends runs 10k hives in CA and is up to 6 treatments a year with Tackit.


Six treatments, something is wrong here, maybe the dose or application needs to be looked at closer, good luck.


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## jim lyon

MNbees said:


> I have the VM unit and started using it late August for the first time. If you operate it correctly and give all hives an even adequate dose
> (white thick vapor) its only about 4 seconds per hive. After about 8 hives you need to let it warm back up a little bit (about 30 seconds).
> I then flip up side down and bang on it with my hive tool, then ad another large scoop for another 8-10 hives. All in all it is very fast.
> 
> Results seem to be good and can say that mite drop is the biggest about 36 hours after treatment and seems to continue for a few more days.
> It does kill some beetles but not enough.
> I think ideal treatment conditions are low wind and cool enough that the bees aren't flying much but not so cold that they are in a tight cluster.


Seems like I remember some reports of commercials being disappointed at the efficacy of vaporization treatments that didn't last at least a few minutes. Have you done any followup ether rolls at 24 to 48 hours to try to get an indication of the % of phoretic mites you are getting?


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## Michael Palmer

Exactly Keith. Hard to believe he's not treating with supers on or soon before.


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## MNbees

jim lyon said:


> Seems like I remember some reports of commercials being disappointed at the efficacy of vaporization treatments that didn't last at least a few minutes. Have you done any followup ether rolls at 24 to 48 hours to try to get an indication of the % of phoretic mites you are getting?


No I didnt do any ether roles. While cleaning bottom boards and working the bees I get a good idea of mites being killed and mites on bees. I don't have enough experience with this yet to be sure how well it works. But I can say the bees respond well to it and it kills mites. Headed back to texas at the end of next week, then ill do some testing and let you know.


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## jim lyon

MNbees said:


> No I didnt do any ether roles. While cleaning bottom boards and working the bees I get a good idea of mites being killed and mites on bees. I don't have enough experience with this yet to be sure how well it works. But I can say the bees respond well to it and it kills mites. Headed back to texas at the end of next week, then ill do some testing and let you know.


Hope they look good keep us posted.


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## odfrank

I did my first OAD last week. I already owned a small digital scale, hot water heater, garden sprayer. So my only investment was $10 of OA. For vaporizing I would have to buy the $1000 generator, $500 compressor, and the vaporizer. And walk around in a cloud of vapor. Does the increased effectiveness of vapo over dribble justify the investment?


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## Keith Jarrett

MNbees said:


> No I didnt do any ether roles. While cleaning bottom boards and working the bees I get a good idea of mites being killed and mites on bees. .


Cory, the ONLY way to get a good feel of level of mites in the hive is either a sticky board or either roll or wash, looking at the bottom boards is flying blind.

PS, there will be lots of blind keepers this spring.


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## RAK

Keith Jarrett said:


> Six treatments, something is wrong here, maybe the dose or application needs to be looked at closer, good luck.


Or the applicator...:shhhh:


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## jean-marc

odfrank said:


> I did my first OAD last week. I already owned a small digital scale, hot water heater, garden sprayer. So my only investment was $10 of OA. For vaporizing I would have to buy the $1000 generator, $500 compressor, and the vaporizer. And walk around in a cloud of vapor. Does the increased effectiveness of vapo over dribble justify the investment?


Vaporization is not necessarily more effective. When the bees are broodless both methods are effective. The advantage of te vaporization is that the bees can tolerate the treatments quite well. With the liquid application the bees do not tolerate it as well. It shortens their lifespan. One application when broodless is fine usually. If they are on the small side as far as population goes then it can slow down their spring development. It could also resultin their death. You definitely do not want to overdose them with liquid applications. Vaporization can be done multiple times without apparent damage to bees.

Jean-Marc


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## Honey-4-All

Being my usual bull headed self I decided to make a similar unit ourselves this past summer as opposed to coughing up thousands of bucks for some two bit piece of junk I could easily replicate. 

The whole process is pretty complicated from a "flow" perspective as the way the OA transitions from a solid to a liquid and then to a gas makes the whole idea of fast and easy a little far fetched without some ingenious engineering. The stuff likes to coagulate in all the wrong places. 

1. The folks from the "bee team" checked the VM model out and they mentioned that they where unable to determine mite drop levels using OA with this thing because all the "demo" hives had loads of "other" stuff in them also. 

2. Had a decent talk about our "OA gizmo" and it functionality with Dennis VE... at the CSBA meeting. He said that some research on mite reproduction and their use of receptors in their feet to determine when and where to lay eggs might be a key into not just killing mites via OA but might also useful in inhibiting them from getting their reproductive "groove" on. If I understood him correctly the goal of diminishing mite number might be a slow and steady decline as opposed to a miraculous "flash" treatment where 1000's turn into 1 or 2 overnight.

If that's the case then the way it will be successfully used is very unlikely to follow the same path as previous "dope em up" methods

The next steps we are going to take will be based on an appropriate regimen keeping that in mind.


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## gmcharlie

Jim, he said he runs it until a good thick smoke out of all the cracks, 4-8 seconds. Bryan mentioned doing close to 800 in a day (they are in holding yards) but as to it success level, no checks yet. they will after they get done.

Keith, Not sure what to say, but more than one person has told me that. I agree, there are issues. in that system. Had it been me I would have changed something up long before I got to six. Basically there treating with Tackit, then doing a "hotshot" with tackit, and seeing what they missed. To me its insane reieing on a hotshot and sticky board?? a simple wash would have given a closer answer and actually faster. 

I am confused at what some of the guys are doing, and the thinking.
I will report back when I hear some results.

Just for the record, I checked this week, the VM unit is 3500. I was hopeing they were going down, not up.


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## MNbees

I did use sticky boards and saw good mite kill. I also ether role often, just not yet this round. We work through our bees very often so i dont think its flying blind. The bees seem vibrant after the treatment. $3500 bucks is dirt cheap to kill mites. Anything legal from Mann lake is going to cost that to treat unless you dont have many hives.
A person could save some money by not giving bees pollen sub when they dont need it, that stuffs not cheap and in the middle of winter its not as necessary as killing mites. 

honey4all, Make one that works as well and show us, just a another pipe dream.
I dont know these guys or have any reason to promote this product other than i think it works.


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## jean-marc

$3500, plus $150/compressor, plus $1000/generator. Oxalic around here is $75 for 25 kg. (enough for 12500 treatments at 2 grams per hive) That works out to .6 cents per hive treatment. Labour seems reasonnable if you can do 800/day in a holding yard. All in all if the system works seems cheap. It is odd though, that the vmVaporizer guys are using other products to treat colonies.

Jean-Marc


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## Keith Jarrett

MNbees said:


> A person could save some money by not giving bees pollen sub when they dont need it, that stuffs not cheap and in the middle of winter its not as necessary as killing mites.


And this is just one reason some keepers are still broke after a 7 year wave of good prices.


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## jean-marc

I got my machine today. Tried it without the air filter and it worked fine. Big clouds of smoke. Ithink I broke a Canadian record today, maybe not across all businesses but certainly in Canadian beekeeping history. From the time I enteredd the USAun til the time I paid the Canadian governement the GST of the vmVaporizer, 22 minutes elapsed. So I entered the States picked up my parcel, returned to Canada, filled out my B# commercial entry form, paid the ST (no duties on beekeeping equipment or very little) only 22 minutes. This was a good omen. Decided to try out the machine, conditions were great, sunny and cool, no wind. Did 70 pallets in 2 hours. I was impressed. tomorrow I go to another yard where I have sticky boards in place, so I can do a natural drop count, 48 hours, treat then do a follow up natural drop. Mites have been at 1-4%. A little too high for my comfort level. i think this machine will kick some varroa arse big time.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc

Gave her another go today. We did 3 yards... 220 pallets. Worker was at the house at 9 this morning. We were back before 4. There was maybe 75 minutes of total travel time. We did check the yard we did yesterday just to relax my worker's head. He wanted to make sure we had not fried a bunch of bees. All looked good. We stuck some sticky boards in some. All in all this is a fast system. We were able to do the first yard of 140 pallets in 2.5 hours as opposed to yesterday 70 pallets took 2 hours. We just had a little more experience and knew when to keep our eyes open. As long as we get the good mite kill, I would give it my full endorsement. I can keep you guys posted.

Jean-Marc


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## Chip Euliss

Very impressive times jean-marc. Keep it coming!


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## stevethebeeman

I think I treated over 1700 hives in a day all in the holding yard worked good time will tell if we got a good kill though .. I think our mite levels were low to begin with do some more checking in texas


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## jean-marc

I have been at this for awhile. I am trying to treat all colonies twice. I figure another 5 days and should have treated 5000 hives twice. It is a big job. The greatest difficulty is the weather. Itrains a lot here and oxalic loves to suck up moisture, making it difficult to burn off. The key to overcome that difficulty is to slow down the pace. Every 3-4 times that the gun has been reloaded with oxalic acid it needs a break of a few minutes so it can reheat... then it becomes easier to burn the oxalic. I also have to watch the amount of oxalic that is loaded into the gun... to much and it slows things up, not enough and it all burns off pretty fast. I also taken the effort to try and lock the smoke into the colonies. All my colonies have a top entrance. Our lids are inner covers and at this time of year we have an inslate tarp over them to keep the rain off. After we treat then in keeping with tadition we use a blue shop towel to block the entrance. This way the oxalic smoke can resublimateinto fine crystals throughout the hive. Based on a few numbers it looks like we get a better kill when we attempt to keep the smoke in the colonies. Keep in mind that most of our pallets are made with boards as opposed to plywood so there are gaps between the boards. The bees given the opportunity will vent that smoke out of the colonies as quickly as possible.

We are definitely killing varroa. I use foundation on the bottoms as a sticky board. Temperatures lately are near freezing, sometimes a little below and up to 50 F or so... rain. The biggest "fault" in the vmVaporizer is the amount of smoke delivered. It is variable. Conditions change on a daily basis, moisture levels are highly variable, precipitation changes daily... so it is hard to get the same dosage in each hive. I am surprised that the bees can tolerate oxalic. Their tolerance makes up for the variable dosages that are being delivered. So far I am glad I have done this. My varroa leves were too elevated 1, 2 , 3 and 4%. Some hives had lower levels but generally speaking higher than in recent years. Something had to be done. Most colonies are broodless, but I am not sure. I just did not check because it is a bit cool. 

It appears like minimal killing of bees, compared to killing of varroa. I tilt colonies and look on the bottom for dead bees. The ultimate test will be the winter survival. Time will tell. I am planning to treat one yard 4, 5 or 6 times... just to check their tolerance of oxalic and to see if their are negative affects with multiple applications.

Compared to the Cor deWitt(sp?) system this is way way faster but dosages are highly variable.

Jean-Marc


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## Chip Euliss

Great info Jean-Marc!


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## stevethebeeman

I think there is room for improvement with the vaporizer, I know all your frustrations, glad I wasn't the only one sometimes I would have great smoke then sometimes a weak flow I'm sure we will some updated models in the works. We did treat in maybe 50 degree weather. It seemed if I kept it loaded don't let it get low it blew good smoke. 
I just got back from texas bees looked great hope the numbers stay up


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## jean-marc

Steve:

Keeping the gun loaded is ok, unless the temperatures are cooler, then it just gets clogged... at that point the real fun begins. Unfortunately there is no easy way to get the gun unclogged. If it were possible to screw the bottom part of the gun to the longer handle, then perhaps cleaning would be way easier.

If it is raining at all the trying to keep the gun loaded is virtually impossible. It will get clogged in a short period of time, an hour maximum.

If eer ut did get clogged I took to rinsing it with hot water, then boiling it off as the gun warmed up. Not too sure that this will be beneficial to the longevity of the gun. Then an hour later back to the field.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc

I went out today again. Worked 6 hours or so , including travel time. We did a little less than 400 hives. It did not rain today, huge bonus. Things went well. Just need to maintain a pace. Every time I add the oxalic acid I use that cleaning rod, just to prevent any accumulation. After 3-4 times of loading the gun, I give it a little rest of a minute ofr 2. It gets good and hot again. When the acid is dropped into the gun, you can hear it crackle and bubble, that is the water boiling off... soon the smoke comes. Sometimes when the gun cools a bit, we have to wait 30-45 seconds in order that sufficient heat starts burning the oxalic. This is the part where patience is tested, but sometimes slower is faster.

In my home yard, I treated a group of colonies a third time. All were dropping a small number of mites except one that dropped more than the first and second time. I figured brood hatched, not sure? Anyways I decided to treat that hive a fourth time, and really blasted them with oxalic , and a fairly big drop happened in the next 2 days. More than 350 varroa. A little bit less than the combined drop from the second and third treatment. Makes me wonder if I will need to treat the whole outfit a third time. Anyways I will be checking more sticky boards the next few days.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc

Today was going fine until it was not. Did a yard of 32 pallets, that was ok despite a dodgy start. It was misting after a snow last night. We were going fine, then when we set upm at the second yard after treating 10 hives the fitting on the compressor that the hose attaches to decided to pack it in. So no pressure to blow the smoke into the hives. Did not know what the problem was, so was trying to fing the invoice to return the compressor. I have only had it for 3 weeks or so. Mind you it has been working daily and sometimes in adverse conditions. Anyways I bring to the store, we figure out the problem, got a new coupling, bought a spare, got another air line just in case. Hopefully tomorrow will bring better results.

Through all of this, the most surprising aspect of all of this is the bees ability to tolerate the oxalic smoke. It is very unpleasant if you ever breath any in and yet we fill the hive up with this stuff.

I wonder too if it would not be possible to have a tablet for a 2 gram dosage for an individual hive? It is a bit hard to guage how much I am giving, this could help.

Another interesting part, is once the gun gets loaded with oxalic, you can hear the water boil off. When the gun is very hot it is obvious. After reloading a few times not so obvious, solately I've been placing my ear up against the tube, then after 20-30 seconds I can hear the water boiling off and very shortly afterwards a good thick smoke comes out. I guess the first 7-8000 applications are the toughest then experience kicks in and I can recognize all the variables and make it work even in poor conditions. I guess I am a little slow to catch on, but not stupid, seeing as I eventually figure it out 

The one big problem that I have is all my equipment is "leaky". There is a fair bit of ventilation in my hives. We have inner covers with a flight entrance, kinda necessary for winter here. I have drain holes in my pallets on account of all the rain we get. The hives leak where the boxes come in contact with the pallets... just cuz. Sometimes there is extra wax on the inner cover that was not fully scraped down so there is a gap there... and on and on. All this extra ventilation is great in the summer when moving bees, the extra airflow prevents/slows down overheating when colonies are on a highway truck. In the current situation less than ideal. I can see some of my oxalic smoke just blowing away... less than ideal. Not sure how to overcome this.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc


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## Chip Euliss

I suspect "leaky" equipment is what most of us have for most of the same reasons. My understanding is that it is difficult to overdose with oxalic vapor but if I'm wrong, hopefully someone will chime in with any concerns. Most of the folks I know who use this and the Lega vaporizer, give the hives a really good shot and you can see a good stream of vapors escaping from various places in the hive. Also hear it kills mice but not hive beetles. I know you don't have hive beetles but I'd be interested to see if you have a mouse kill when you open the hives next spring Jean-Marc. I get mice in my hives, so I'll be checking in the spring too.


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## Stephenpbird

jean-marc said:


> I wonder too if it would not be possible to have a tablet for a 2 gram dosage for an individual hive? It is a bit hard to guage how much I am giving, this could help.


It is possible. We have 1 gram oxalic acid tablets available in Germany. Not only is it easier and faster to use but since the oxalic acid is so compact in tablet form it vaporizes more efficiently than the powder form. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ano0l4St8kE


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## snl

Was looking into getting 2 gram tablets made here in the US.........Expensive and they want an order of hundreds of thousands.............


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## camero7

> Also hear it kills mice


Not my experience... I've seen mice stay in the hive while I vaporized them and they were still alive afterward. Had to run them out myself.


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## Stephenpbird

snl said:


> Was looking into getting 2 gram tablets made here in the US.........Expensive and they want an order of hundreds of thousands.............


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Manual-Type...801224?hash=item3cd7fe3e08:g:RlgAAMXQlgtS-XpH

with this you could make them in house.


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## snl

Stephenpbird said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Manual-Type...801224?hash=item3cd7fe3e08:g:RlgAAMXQlgtS-XpH
> 
> with this you could make them in house.


True, but that's not happening!


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## zhiv9

jean-marc said:


> The one big problem that I have is all my equipment is "leaky". There is a fair bit of ventilation in my hives. We have inner covers with a flight entrance, kinda necessary for winter here. I have drain holes in my pallets on account of all the rain we get. The hives leak where the boxes come in contact with the pallets... just cuz. Sometimes there is extra wax on the inner cover that was not fully scraped down so there is a gap there... and on and on. All this extra ventilation is great in the summer when moving bees, the extra airflow prevents/slows down overheating when colonies are on a highway truck. In the current situation less than ideal. I can see some of my oxalic smoke just blowing away... less than ideal. Not sure how to overcome this.


I have the same issue with the Lega heat gun unit. Various solid and screened boards, top entrances, etc all let a lot of vapour out. Is this a problem? With the Lega unit instructions they say to vapourize for 15 seconds per hive. Should I be vapourizing for longer on the leaky or leakier hives? How much longer? 20 seconds? Is there a danger of overheating or overdosing?


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## jean-marc

Well apparently it is hard to overdose them. I've been giving some heavy doses the last few days. I finally got the methodology down pretty good. Seems to get a better mite drop. I see a lot of the smoke just blowing out but, what can I do. I tape the evident cracks, the drain holes in the pallets, well that's a no go. Consequently smoke blows away but I am now smokinh them a bit longer. I make sure I get a good cloud of smoke going before I apply it to the colonies. Would make Cheech and Chong proud.

Jean-Marc


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## MNbees

Yep I like to see it billowing out the lid for about a second


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## Bmcq

zhiv9 said:


> I have the same issue with the Lega heat gun unit. Various solid and screened boards, top entrances, etc all let a lot of vapour out. Is this a problem? With the Lega unit instructions they say to vapourize for 15 seconds per hive. Should I be vapourizing for longer on the leaky or leakier hives? How much longer? 20 seconds? Is there a danger of overheating or overdosing?


I use the Lega and run it at about 35 seconds per hive, screen bottom boards


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## irwin harlton

Good thread, good information, using a STEINEL Industrial Heat Gun with home made vaporizing pot, killing mites according to my sticky boards, but mite population cannot be too high cause I don't see big numbers.Colonies are wrapped in 4- packs ,vaporizing thru top entrance, sometimes smoke comes out in various other top entrances , mostly out the bottom of the one I'm doing.Vapor is suppose to be heavier than air but I think it takes the path of least resistance, wearing a respirator better to be safe than sorry or sick.


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## jean-marc

One thing I do not like with the vmVaporizer is that after the treatment you can see oxalic acid right where the gun comes in contact with the pallet. The fumes sublimate right at the point of contact. My question to self is, how much oxalic is that? I am sure it would be put to better use if it were distributed throughout the hive, but maybe it it inconsequential. I just do not know.

Yesterday was my first day with good application success in the rain. It rained early on then it tapered off later. The whole key was just eaiting for the gun to come to temperature. Initially after the warmup period the gun is very hot. The first 2-3 applications go quickly. But by the 3-4th application the gun starts to cool a bit. I just have to wait between 30-45 seconds for the oxalic to boil it's water off then it start to burn. At first it it very evident when the oxalix boils off... later it is more subtle. I now place my ear up close to the gun then I can hear it boil off. After I hear that I know I will get good thick white/grey smoke for the next little while.

Jean-Marc


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## jim lyon

Jean Marc, based on what you've learned what is a reasonable per hive time frame when in continuous use?


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## jean-marc

4-500 per day with 2 guys locking the smoke in. Today we got to the yard by 10 oclock. Was home at 3. Travel time was limited. both yards had 40 pallets. So we did 320 in 5 hours. Today it snowed large wet flakes. Earlier it was raining during the first half of the first yard. Second yard it snowed most of the time we were there. It was just a couple hundred feet higher in elevation and bingo snow. So 5 hours or 300 minutes later for 320 hives. Basically a hive a minute with 2 guys. Truth is we spend about as much time waiting for the gun to come to temperature as treating time. The manufacturer recommends a 3 inch dose in the turkey baster. That is about 22 ml. This is good for 4-6 hives of good thick smoke. In these cooler temperatures it takes time to come to temperature.

One thing is for sure, this method is way faster than anything else on the market. 2 things slow us down, attempts to lock the smoke in and weather issues. It does knock varroa down but apparently researchers claim up to 95% control with a single dose during broodlessness. I am not really seeing that. On my second application I get a knockdown of about 75% of what I got in the first round. Most of the first round I was not locking in the smoke. These mites that fell after the first application, would they have fallen on their own? Were they irrevocably damaged and would have fallen over the next few weeks? I don't know, although I doubt that one treatment would have done it on it's own. I am pretty sure that the second treatment was required. I am toying with the idea of doing a third treatment. It will all depend on what I see on my drop boards after the second treatment. I treated a yard of 120 colonies for a third time. For the most part, not too may mites were left after the 2 treatments and was probably not necessary. I had 40 drop boards. All but one had lower mite levels. Then this odd ball colony shows up with a bunch of varroa. I treat it for a fourth time and whammo, even more varroa. Must of had brood I guess.

Anyways, enough of this and a Merry Christmas and a Happy and Prosperous New Year to one and all.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

Great info Jean-Marc and thx for spending the time providing all that commercial feedback. 

Are you holding a yard or several hives un treated as a control to use as comparison? The reason I ask is through out your posts you mention the un certain thoughts of correct dosage, and your current observations are that the bees are un-affected by the multiple treatments. 
Looking long term, will those heavier treated hives show higher signs of winter stress? 
Our bees here will not be flying again til late March, I wonder if multiple treatments now will lead to result in stressed out LATE winter bees. 

A control yard would help make those observations


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## jean-marc

Ian I agree on the late stressed bees idea. Looking at some of the mite drops I think I was having early winter stressed bees, and even more stressed beekeeper. I am glad I am doing what I have done so far. I do not think it would have been prudent to wait. My first round of brood would have gotten massacred in some of the colonies. So I figure the worse case will be late winter stressed/tired bees... hopefully alive versus dead ones. I have been checking the bottom board by tipping the colonies forward and I just do not see a bunch of dead bees from the oxalic treatment. There could be a 50-60 day delay, I do not know. Time will tell. Given my circumstances I needed to do something. I went with oxalic sublimation vs the dribble because there are reports of brooding delays in the spring with the dribble method, particularly with weak or somehow compromised colonies.

In 45 minutes or so I will go with the Mrs and check 1 yard that I treated 8 days ago and 2 days ago. I had 8 drop boards. After 6 days they dropped from a low of 90 or so mites to a high of around 500 (that kinda scares me). I treated agaqin 2 days ago and I will see what else has fallen in the 2 days since. I know that they got a good dose both times. By then I had m PhD in oxalicology obtained in the Institute of Hard Knocks.

Sometimes in this game you take your chances and second guess yourself all the way. I think it was the right decision so far. I did not have a bunch of alternatives.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc

I think this could be a pretty good method for the indoor wintering gus. Treat them just as they go in, or a day before. Treat them again when they come out. It could require a second or even third gun to speed things up, especially when coming out of the buildings. After winter any left over varroa should be good and tired. Another round of oxalic should have devastating effects on varroa. Winter is your friend, as a former Winnipeger, can't believe I just said that.

Jean-Marc


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## jim lyon

Ian said:


> Great info Jean-Marc and thx for spending the time providing all that commercial feedback.


:thumbsup:


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## Ian

jean-marc said:


> I think this could be a pretty good method for the indoor wintering gus. Treat them just as they go in, or a day before. Treat them again when they come out. It could require a second or even third gun to speed things up, especially when coming out of the buildings. After winter any left over varroa should be good and tired. Another round of oxalic should have devastating effects on varroa. Winter is your friend, as a former Winnipeger, can't believe I just said that.
> 
> Jean-Marc


I was thinking out loud to another beekeeper about treating this way indoors. 
My biggest reservation is the accumulation of OA residues in the shed and detrimental personal health concerns. 
I am thinking about shooting them as you do with OA vapour a week before we bring them in... But I keep stalling those plans as I fear this added stress, as small it may be, will show during that late winter, during those dog days of winter. ( as a fellow winnipeger you know what that means ) Most All my winter losses show their face during March. 

As I suggested to you; run a separate control group to help measure the effects, I should run a separate trial group to help predict the unintended effects.

Love the feedback , keep breaking that trail


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## Ian

Are you using this OA treatment in tandem with an annual Apivsr treatment?


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## mgolden

If you go to Scientific Beekeeping and OAV, there is a fellow you may want to call. I know him from Edmonton and Area District Beekeepers. He is a commercial bee keeper and running 1200 hives(down from 3000 hives) and I suspect has been using OAV since 2009 or before. 

He learned about in Europe at a conference and was making OAV applicators. OA was being made into 1 gram pellets for ease of measuring. I have not seen it in use but it vaporizes the OA and then uses a 12V fan to inject it into the hive. 

He winter outdoors.


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## jean-marc

Mgolden:

You are talking about Cor Dewitt. I have used his apparatus in the past. It is a series of Varrox vaporizers, either 2 or 4. Works but super slow compared to this method. My issues with oxalic are with my equipment, it leaks the vapours everywhere. How much I dunno. Will it impact the efficacy of the treatments, again I do not know, but likely.

Ian:

The reason for this treatment is because I got poor results with Apivar this fall. Contrary to the manufacturer's recommendations I only used 2 strips per hive, my bad, but in the past that was good enough. We also had ssues with strip placement. Guys got lazy and most strips were in the top box when they should have been in the bottom one. I figured that out late and when I did a few alcohol washes my levels were too high.

I also used some thymol in the fall on other hivesand same thing not a great kill rate. So I was left with colonies where about 25% of them had levels that were scary another 25% too high. Something had to be done and I am doing it.

Just got back from kill missionnumber 26 or 27 and I checked my drop trays. So you all know I treated these hives 2 fridays ago. Then on Thursday of the week past I treated a second time after counting the varroa. Now 2 days after treatment I counted the drops... this is what I saw.
Hive 1 87 -33
Hive 2 135 - 22
Hive 3 132 - 148
Hive 4 about 250 to 52
Hive 5 between 4 and 500 - 52
Hive 6 300 - 160
Hive 7 93-76
Hive 8 87- 68

The yard that was treated today only had 4 drop trays. After having treated last Saturday with the Mrs. we went back today for a second go at it. 60 pallets... 3 hours. Another hour driving and counting varroa. We had 2 hives with about 100 each. One with around 400 another with 800-1000. That was the most i have seen so far. About 2 hours after treating I looked fast and they were all dropping varroa. The one that dropped arounf 1000 had 100-125 that fell. The others had about 25% of the totaldrop that fell within the hour. I am pretty sure I had to do this a second time. Would you have? Why? Why not?

I have 4 yards to go to have done all5000 hives twice. These should be 5-6 hour days so I will look at the drops done after the second treatment. I may choose to go for round three. I have done 10 pallets 3 times and it kinda looks like it was not necessary but one hive dropped a sky high number... just to confuse me or warn me. Looking forward to see what the other drop trays have to say.

Lastly today was kinda windy in that particular yard. When it was gusting I could see my oxalic blowing away immediately after I had blown it in. It mostly comes out of the drain holes on the bottom. This is what adds to the great variability of treatment efficiency. I know it is working, just how well I do not really know. Alcohol washes will be done weather permitting, but that is likely not until mid february.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

You probably mentioned this further back; what were your alcohol wash counts in the fall?


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## jean-marc

Most were anywhere from 1-4%. Saw the odd one much higher at 8%.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc

Started round 3 on thisendless project. 5 days or so to go. we have had a run of prettu good weather. Mostly sunny and it starts of with just below freezing in the morning and 4-5 Celcius in the afternoon, that's high 30's low 40's for the neighbors.

In these cooler temeratures a lot of the oxalic sublimates at the tip of the gun so it tends to plug up, no big deal, just hold it with one hand and tap tap tap at the nozzle end and the unburnt oxalic chunks fall out.

For the most part the numbers are falling mites is going downwards, so looks like it is working. No alcoholwashses as it is a bit hard to muck with. I treated on yard 4 times. I will likely keep treating it just to see for myself how tolerant the bees are of oxalic fumes. It i trly remarkable that they can tolerate the smoke. I have also stepped up the dose a bit with no apparent ill effects. The initial heat kills bees that are very close to the tip of the gun. Exeptionally packed singles going into winter, like the ones we see on the Canadian prairies would take a bit of a hit , but no big deal in my opinion. Most of my colonies are doubles and some are touching the pallets but not all.

The one crazy hive that dropped a large number of varroa on the third treatment got a fourth and fifth treatment. Looks like number is bringing the numbers way down. Gotta like it because it has been a big effort. In a few weeks when the crew shows up and I feel motivated and temps rise a bit I will do alcohol washes. I did a few at the beginning of all of this and that is what motivated me into action.

I have yards that are in open fields. Wind blows pretty steady in those ones and perhaps an extra treatment is required for those yards. The smoke just seems to blow out real fast. It kills varroa but I just do not know how well.

Overall I am glad I purchased this piece of equipment... and that I am putting to good use. Oxalic sublimation late fall early winter(going into the wintering buildings) along with a bit of formic in late spring (maybe 2 times 70 ml in the wipe mites 10 days apart), thymol late summer(late august early september), I think one could get away from the synthetic chemicals (which may or may not be working) still be able to control varroa, stay in business. In the late winter or coming out of the sheds another oxalic sublimation could be beneficial. Not sure what I will do just yet. I sell a lot of bees in the spring as nucs, so perhaps an oxlic liquid application when all the brood has hatched might work real well.

Not a big fan of varroa.

Jean-Marc


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## Chip Euliss

Outstanding and very useful information Jean-Marc. I look forward to how your alcohol washes look.


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## WBVC

I am interested in the Italian Vapourizer that works with a heat gun. I clicked their contact button and get an error. I would like to purchase just the Vapourizer piece and buy a heat gun in N America so it works with our household electric supply. Does anyone have their email contact?
What model of Steinel heat gun is the right one for fitting and heating the product? Where does one purchase this?
Thank you.


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## zhiv9

Janne,

I purchased mine from Propolis-etc in Quebec. The Steinel heat gun I am using is an HL 2010 E. The fit between the two was a little loose. I shimmed with a piece of foil to improve the fit.


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## Ian

Jean-Marc
After they forth treatment, how much Oxalic will each hive of gotten, approximately?


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## jean-marc

6 grams max. I was trying for 2 grams per treatment, but some stayed in the c olonies and some was being blown out pretty fast. I have no way of knowing or measuring. 

Jean-Marc


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## D Coates

zhiv9 said:


> I purchased mine from Propolis-etc in Quebec. The Steinel heat gun I am using is an HL 2010 E. The fit between the two was a little loose. I shimmed with a piece of foil to improve the fit.


I don't see it in their latest catalog. What page is it on?


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## zhiv9

D Coates said:


> I don't see it in their latest catalog. What page is it on?


It wasn't in the catalogue, but they had it in stock. I initially contacted Lega to purchase directly and they identified Propolis as their closest distributor.


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## D Coates

I've done a little business with Propolis-etc buying colorful lids for my chunk honey and candles but the freight is ugly. Not their fault and they are the only ones who offer those lids. I hit Blue Sky here in the states to see if they are going to sell it as they are the new Lega distributor. We'll see what they say. I own one of the Heiysler units but I don't really care for it as it takes a lot of time to fill/use, it barely fits in the entrance, it's easy to spill, bees fall or fly directly into it and get fried, and one of these days it's going to catch a frame bottom bar on fire. I've found more than one charred during spring inspections. 

I've been very pleased with Apivar the past couple years. They cost me $11 per hive and they're a one time treatment I put on after my last harvest. Next year assuming all goes as planned (relatively speaking) I'll spend +/- $500 in Apivar (nucs too). I'm assuming this is going to cost about $600, not including the generator to power it? This unit appears to allow you to walk from hive to hive doing treatments nonstop. Even if I'm doing 3 applications it could be a timesaver as I'm not completely cracking open the hives, I'm walking from entrance to entrance. 

That's all assuming it's effective as a varroa treatment.


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## WBVC

zhiv9 said:


> Janne,
> 
> I purchased mine from Propolis-etc in Quebec. The Steinel heat gun I am using is an HL 2010 E. The fit between the two was a little loose. I shimmed with a piece of foil to improve the fit.


Was it the heat gun or the Vapourizer..or both...that you got at propolis direct?


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## zhiv9

WBVC said:


> Was it the heat gun or the Vapourizer..or both...that you got at propolis direct?


Just the vaporizer. I got the Steinel heat gun from Global Industrial.


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## beesohappy

jean-marc said:


> Overall I am glad I purchased this piece of equipment... and that I am putting to good use. Oxalic sublimation late fall early winter(going into the wintering buildings) along with a bit of formic in late spring (maybe 2 times 70 ml in the wipe mites 10 days apart), thymol late summer(late august early september), I think one could get away from the synthetic chemicals (which may or may not be working) still be able to control varroa, stay in business. In the late winter or coming out of the sheds another oxalic sublimation could be beneficial. Not sure what I will do just yet. I sell a lot of bees in the spring as nucs, so perhaps an oxlic liquid application when all the brood has hatched might work real well.


Have you had any mechanical issues with the vmVaporizer? Is there some sort of a heater that can quiet working? What king of maintenance is there other than tapping on it if it gets clogged?

Thank you.


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## Chip Euliss

I bought 2 of the HL 2010E Steinel heat guns off Ebay and both fit the Lega vaporizer just right.


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## jean-marc

On January 12 the gun packed it in. I had abused it quite a bit. I had treated 5040 hives twice and another 5000 a third time. The 40 singles only got treated 2 times. Was not sure if I wanted to treat them or not, the vmVaporizer made the decision for us. I guess it was tired as well and needed a break. At some pont we had the vaporizer kinda plugged up with unburned oxalicso I ended up rinsing it into a garbage can... to try and liquify the oxalic. When the hot water was going through the vaporizer it back filled and the wiring eventually got corroded. I sent it back to them and $900 later all is good again. 

Our drop board are showing very low levels ofnatural drops. I want to do some alcohol washes on the colonies that we initially did them on... the ones that alerted us to a problem. So far we almost finished a round and we are just slightly above 10% losses. Not bad considering things were not looking very good late october.

Overall the maintenance is minimal. COmpressors need to be drained and stored dry, same with the generator. The airhose blew out a few times, but we did do 15 000 treatments. Not bad, $150 of oxalic, maybe $10, 000 of labour, vehicles wear and tear and fuel. Maybe $5000 there and that is a bit on the high side. Looks like about $1.00 a treatment.

wedefinitely need good respirators. Next year if I do it again I will get a full face shield with lenses to correct my vision... that or contact lenses.

Jean-Marc


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## Chip Euliss

Thanks for the great information and evaluation Jean-Marc. Vmvaporizer should support your efforts as you've provided a great review of their product. If your alcohol washes are good, a $1 per treatment is about the best one could hope for with mites.


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## Ian

With that intensive treatment schedule I'm impressed you have not commented on stressed bees yet. 
I might be looking to buy one of these


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## Chip Euliss

Ian said:


> With that intensive treatment schedule I'm impressed you have not commented on stressed bees yet.
> I might be looking to buy one of these


From what I've read, the vapor isn't very stressful but a friend who bought the same unit I did told me the bees seemed a little lethargic after vaporizing. I vaporized some in CA and I cracked the lid on a couple of hives 5 minutes or so after treatent and it was pretty much business as usual.

Up in your country the past week or so Ian but east. Went ice fishing on Lake Winnipeg for 4 days. Nice weather but I did plug my truck in a couple of days! Your bees wintering well?


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## jean-marc

Actually I tried to go excessive on some hives. I had 30 pallets at the home yard. I piggy backed 40 singles on top of them. I treated that yard 4 times. I wanted to see how much they could handle. A lot of times I would deliberately try to mega dose them. The doubles basically are full of oxalic vapour after 4-6 seconds. I was giving the home yard double treatments, as in twice as long. All i can say is I'm impressed with the bees ability to handle those fumes. The are highly unpleasant if you get a wiff of them, yet the bees seem to be able to handl what I would call an excessive amount. If I learned anything at all it would be that bees can handle oxalic acid fumes, people cannot.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

Keep us posted on the stress effects on those hives you doused. I'm having a hard time believing the bees don't get damaged from the fumes when those vapours will knock a human to their knees ( second hand antidotal)


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## Ian

Chip Euliss said:


> Up in your country the past week or so Ian but east. Went ice fishing on Lake Winnipeg for 4 days. Nice weather but I did plug my truck in a couple of days! Your bees wintering well?


You weren't one of those ice fishers caught in that blizzard were you?? 
Bees are hanging in there, beekeeper about to dread those dog days of March...


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## Chip Euliss

Nope but it did blow to nearly zero visibility for a few hours one day--just stayed in the fish house looking down the hole jigging!!


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## Stephenpbird

This study http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2015.1106777 suggests that OAV efficacy is not dependent on dose, or at least not as dependent as other ways of applying OA. A dose of upto 4.5 grams per hive was tested with good results. So overdosing a hive has little effect on bee health, and as little as half a gram of OAV per hive has a 80% kill rate.


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## jean-marc

Today, I did washes on 34 colonies about 300 bees each sample (1/2 cup does the trick) and zero not a single one of those rascals. Colonies are hatching the second round and the very strong the third round of brood. This was a very small sample but still very very encouraging, given that it was a somewhat miserable job. The weather finally broke here and I will continue tomorrow and get more sampling done. We are also checking natural drops on a few hives. We see between zero and a high of 8 varroa over a 2 week period. Most are between zero and two. Again this is very positive.

At this rate if this keeps up, I will get a second and third vaporizer. Will keep 2 going and a third in case of a breakdown. I may treat with this at some point this spring when we see the numbers creeping up. They always do.

Bees look good considering it is raining 6 days of the week, every week. There was a little bit of pollen coming in today.

Jean-Marc


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## Chip Euliss

Outstanding Jean-Marc!!


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## HeritageHoney

Jean-Marc,
Remind us, was the vaporizer your only late Summer/Fall varroa treatment, or did you hit them with something else to knock them back before you started your rounds of vaporizing?
I know 2 other commercial beeks who got good results with getting numbers down to 0 in the Fall using this vaporizer. I haven't checked with them to see how their mite numbers are checking out right now. 
Thanks for all your input and sharing it openly.


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## camero7

Chip Euliss said:


> Outstanding Jean-Marc!!


:thumbsup:


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## jean-marc

Tim and others. I had used Apivr strips in the fall. We had some issues with placement of the strips. The strips were mostly placed in the top box. Soon afterwards the bees were in the bottom box. We only used 2 strips instead of the recommended 4, but that has always been the case... 2 strips only. As far as strip placement goes, the guys got it right in at least half of the colonies. When we were removing strips and doing some alcohol washes, we noticed some pretty high mite levels. None were below 1%, some up to 4%. So maybe we have some resistance to amitraz, maybe, maybe not. By the time I got to vaporizing them, some were already dead. I would scoop a handful of dead bees from the bottom board then toss them away, varroa would stay on my hand. At that point I was pretty sure varroa and or the associated viruses got them. The next thought was crap, we got ourselves a problem.

The bees that stayed here or came back from canola pollination got thymol. The local bees had fairly low numbers, but the canola bees had high levels as well. Usually we split most of those hives and then treat with thymol. Essentially we half the varroa population per colony then introduce queens. When they are upand laying we treat with thymol. Last year because of manpower issues we did not divide those hives. Besides if you can't make $$$ with 5000 how is 6000 going to help? These hives also had varroa levels get a little out of hand.

When we were sampling yesterday we came across colonies from all 3 situations, local bees, bees that went to honey production and bees that went to canola pollination. We will continue to keep monitoring and I can keep posting about it.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

Like what I'm hearing. Any signs of stresses from the treatment?
You mentioned placing strips up top, and none in the bottom. You also mentioned possible resistance but also acknowledged poor strip placement. I just wanted to echo that point of poor strip placement... but proper strip placement would of ment a heck of a lot more work. That vaporizer avoids all that extra placement and removal work during late fall hives (miserable work and hard on the bees)
I'm going to look into purchasing this apparatus. I appreciate your full an honest experience with the use of this product!! It means more to me than a magazine advertisement.


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## mgolden

Please follow the recommended dosage. The recommended dosage is one strip per five frames of bees.

And then ponder possible resistance to Amitraz. And then distribute bees around in BC and Alberta!!!!!!!


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## jean-marc

mgolden, lots of talk in your neighborhood of resistance. Happens as soon as you keep bees and treat with whatever chemical. It's all part of the game. To start pointing fingers does not help, nor change the selection process that takes place.

Jean-Marc


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## mgolden

The selection process and resistance is going to happen sooner with irresponsible practices.


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## HeritageHoney

Jean-Marc,
Thanks for the feedback and explanation. Also, thanks for taking care of YOUR bees diligently, utilizing different treatments, rather than blaming others for any problems and losses you incur. By the sounds of your treatment regiment, we need more beeks like you taking care of bees!


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## Allen Martens

Jean-Marc
Thanks for chronicling your journey using OAV. Very informative and useful. Great service to all reading BeeSource.

Ordered one today.


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## dtp

Mine arrives on monday.


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## Ian

Who is the contact for purchasing this product? Web address?


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## dtp

http://www.vmvaporizer.com. payment is via paypal.


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## zhiv9

mgolden said:


> The selection process and resistance is going to happen sooner with irresponsible practices.


With varroa the more intense the selective pressure to develop resistance the faster they develop resistance. A lower dose of amitraz is more likely to slow the development of resistance.


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## woodedareas

This acid has received a great deal of publicity. It is a highly toxic chemical. I will not expose myself to it. Every year the bee catalogs include more chemicals. Pretty soon the bees will be treating us for poor health from all of these chemicals.


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## jean-marc

mgolden, stop trying to hijack this thread. So you know in the past I always used 2 strips of apivar per hive. What I neglected tosay was that they were placed in early to mid feb. Essentially bees are in top box at that point...hardly irresponsible behavior. Get off your high horse. Alberta has some 290 000 or so hives ,most being treated with amitraz. I think there is a whole bunch of selection pressure over there.

Yesterday we washed 21 colonies for varroa and zero, today 10 and 0 again. Yesterday and today we saw between 0 and 4 varroa on the natural drops. So it sure looks like we put a beating on the varroa.

Woodedareas,you are right in that this chemical deserves a lot of respect... Full face shield , along with organic vapors/acid gas cartridges. Change those immediately after you can start tasting the smoke. This is not something you want to inhale.

I think a prairie beekeeper could smoke them a couple times before going in the shed and once coming out. Any varroa that would have survived winter would be awfully tired the day they come out of the shed, and that oxalic smoke should be the coup de grace. I think this would work well if there is a little bit of distance between neighbors to minimize reinfestation. 

Jean-Marc


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## rbees

mgolden said:


> The selection process and resistance is going to happen sooner with irresponsible practices.


Actually this is not true One only get true resistance when the target is subjected to high doses of the killing agent


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## deknow

I think TM resistant foulbrood is widely believed to have been greatly accelerated by the use of 'extender patties' (TM in grease patties so the length of time the bees were medicated was extended).
I honestly don't know if it was a high or low dose, but I guess I always expected it was something on the order of 1x or 3x what would have been dusted at one time...but slowly released over 6 weeks or so? 
I think I made grease patties for tracheal mites (and used a baggie of menthol crystals) when we first started beekeeping, but I never put antibiotics in them.

In any case, I wouldn't assume extender patties to be low or high dose wothout some research.


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## mgolden

jean-marc, get your story straight. Two strips in February is a different story than two strips in the fall in the deep without the bees in a double deep.

A spade is a spade!

Just so you know the recommended practice in Alberta is OAV in early fall and Apivar(one strip per five frames of bees) in the early spring. Rotating treatments is one way combat resistance.

I also think it is rare to get resistance in one generation. It builds up over multiple generations. Improper dosage results in more genes available to develop the resistance.


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## Ian

MG, the error was made, recognized and shared as such. AND those types of shared experiences from someone who is respected by many Beekeepers ( manitoba too) only help demonstrate better management practices to the rest ( who do exactly the same and refuse to realize it as a problem) 

Adding realism and honesty into the Beekeepers conversation is a foreign concept... and doing so is very intimidating. 

MG don't kill the messenger. Your completely over looking the entire point of the thread. 
Problem >>>> Solution


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## acbz

This is the first new product I've seen that seems to be competing with the vmvaporizer for commercial market. 
http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/vaporizer.html (scroll to bottom of page, JB-700)
I don't see a price listed, but it has a built-in air blower and only requires a power source. Looks like a nice unit.


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## jean-marc

mgolden. I got the story straight. Ian it was not an error, wellperhaps an error in omission. I just had not gone that far back in the story. The thread is about thevmVaporizer not so much about what I use and when. Last year was the first time I tried to produce honey in Alberta. It was a last minute decision. I had the bees , the cash, a partial place, no extracting system, so I went for it. Bees were treated as usual. Still had the ones that stayed home and the ones that came back early, those got thymol. Even they had high levels here and there after treatment. Even explained why it may have been so. The ones that produced honey in Alberta got 2 mre Apivar strips that fall, that was a first for 2 times Apivar in a season. Not all the strips went in the top box, most did. 2 weeks later some of the clusters settle lower, so they are not in contact with the strips. We did bring bees back early and to warmer temperatures than Alberta. Clusters loosen up,some come in contact with the strips some do not. For sure they don't work unless the bees touch them. There are others in the neighborhood who were talking about high mite loads in the fall who put strips in singles and had small clusters. Others mentioned high loads last spring after Apivar treatment. Found that out last fall. There are a bunch of whisperings of resistance in central Alberta. With 290 000 colonies or so and most guys treating with it, it will come sooner or later. At this point I think we are a lot closer to sooner rather than later. For sure sure resistance did not come along in 1 generation. This we can agree on MG.

The whole point is now there is a tool that can apply oxalic acid quickly to a whole bunch of hives. It can be dangerous to the applicator and precautions should be taken. Owners should probably have a whirl at it for a day or two before they send the crew out just so you have a feel for what is going on out there.

I found out some thing intersting yesterday. There are Canadian bees right next door, 100 yards away, from American bees in soutern Alberta. We have that here in the Fraser Valley. Just did not know about it in southern Alberta.

Nice to see that Heinz has been busy and put something else out there. I wonder what the price will be for his unit?

Thanks for the support Ian.

Jean-Marc


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## camero7

I wrote this morning... here is a copy of the reply...much better price for us sideliners:

Thank you for your interest in the JB700 blower. It is a gentle blowing unit that runs on 12Volt and don’t need a compressor. The first batch was sold out in a week and the next are available in approx 2-3 weeks.
The price is $ 365.00 + s/h, if you like to order on, send us an email for the reservation and a personal cheque. We cash the cheque only when the unit is in the mail.
Best regards
Heinz Kaemmerer


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## deknow

Any method/device that doesn't allow the user to accurately control the dosage per application has all kinds of inherent problems. Measuring an accurate dose might be inconvenient, but I don't know of any other pesticide application that dosage isn't considered important


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## mgolden

The winter of 2014/2015 was overall quite mild. Bees maintained big populations and likely brooded more then normal and likely earlier. Guys were applying spring Apivar, standard two strips for spring and doing a mite count and finding the mite level above thresholds. A bulletin was issued by provincial Apiarist to do a mite count and retreat. How many did?????

The moral of the story is that one needs to assess population of the hive and apply one strip of Apivar per five frames of bees.

The point I think is important is to follow Alberta Provincial Apiarist's recommendation of using Apivar in the spring and OAV in the fall, so there is a rotation of treatments. I also endorse the idea of doing it early so as to have healthy bees going into winter and healthy bees over the summer. For me that is as early in March as I can and late August/early Sep and maybe once more in late October.

I don't know how wide spread OAV use is in Alberta but I dare say, the pioneers of OAV such Cor DeWitt have been using it for 10 plus years. I think but subject to confirmation, he was at a conference in Europe back in 2002 when OAV was presented.

So back to vaporizers.


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## camero7

deknow said:


> Any method/device that doesn't allow the user to accurately control the dosage per application has all kinds of inherent problems. Measuring an accurate dose might be inconvenient, but I don't know of any other pesticide application that dosage isn't considered important


I've tried several different doses and have seen little change in results, coupled with Jean-Marc's experimentation and results I don't believe that dosage is all that important with OA. I don't really consider OA a pesticide although it does act like one with mites. I have yet to see any bee/brood kill with it in my hives and consider it pretty benign. I think it's safer and easier to use than formic pads - MAQS are easier but not as reliable - and the results in my hives are better.


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## wildbranch2007

camero7 said:


> Thank you for your interest in the JB700 blower. It is a gentle blowing unit that runs on 12Volt and don’t need a compressor. The first batch was sold out in a week and the next are available in approx 2-3 weeks.
> The price is $ 365.00 + s/h, if you like to order on, send us an email for the reservation and a personal cheque. We cash the cheque only when the unit is in the mail.
> Best regards
> Heinz Kaemmerer


Thanks Cam, do you have a link to their site?


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## deknow

Whether you 'see it as a pesticde' or not is rather irrlevent....it is a pesticide, it is registered as a pesticide, it is regulated as a pesticide, it is used as a pesticide.

If a small dose does just as much good as a big dose, it is poor practice by any standard not to setup the system to apply the small dose.

When treatments are approved for bees and more expensive than other formulations of the same chemical, they often complain, and they often buy another formulation and use it illegally.

I wonder how many apistan strips would have been used by beekeepers with varroa issues 15 years ago if each strip cost what a dose of oa costs.

The industry has not bothered to do the simple technological task of making good vaporizers that control both temperature and dose.

It's worth noting that the tobacco and marijuana industries have done both of these things....it isn't rocket science....even the potheads bothered to get it right.

I have nothing against any particular vaporizer, but I think temp control and dose control are important features that are mostly missing in the marketplace.


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## camero7

wildbranch2007 said:


> Thanks Cam, do you have a link to their site?



http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/vaporizer.html


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## jean-marc

The potheads got it right because it is a much larger market. I guess they were motivated, contrary to popular belief that consumption leads to a general state of lethargy. That industry has good profit margins. Generally speaking beekeeping is somewhat lean. When varroa first showed up, honey prices were poor. Price support programs were soon abolished. Pollination prices were not what they are. Guys did what they thought they had to do to survive. It's so easy to be critical of others, a lot harder to come up with tangible solutions to problems. We are vulnerable to so many elements out of our control that peoplelook at immediate answers. I know from personnal experience it is hard to think 5 years down the road when there is a fire that has just broken out. Our approach and probably most guys take care of the fire first, so that when tomorrow comes they will take care of whatever shows up the next day.

Jean-Marc


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## grozzie2

jean-marc said:


> There are others in the neighborhood who were talking about high mite loads in the fall


Not just a few 'others'. In my role as a BCHPA rep I end up talking to lots of beekeepers both on the island and the lower mainland. Last fall the trend was pretty clear. Folks that monitor closely were talking about sky high mite levels in August, much higher than most have seen in the past. At the recent BCHPA semi annual in Kamloops, was a lot of discussion of 50% losses from the warmer parts of the province, with much better rates from folks in the interior where it's colder. But the caveat to that, most of the folks in the interior haven't yet started spring management (it's not spring yet there), so who knows what we'll hear from them when mid April rolls around.

I heard two general themes from folks at the semi-annual. The majority said the same thing, 'I was a bad beekeeper this year', meaning they just followed the same regime they have in years gone past for dealing with mites, and, it wasn't enough. Then there were a few that said 'I did way more than normal to deal with mites, and bees are looking so-so, not great, but we can live with it', I believe JM was one of those. Aside from a couple in the Kamloops area, I didn't hear a single person talk about a good year for wintering the bees this year.

The part of the exercise I found most interesting, it didn't matter if somebody had 2, 20, 200 or 2000 colonies, pretty much everybody was telling the same story. Mites out of control last fall in southern BC. Most felt the reasons are simple, an early buildup to above average colony sizes last spring, followed by dry and dusty during July and August. End result was weak bees with lots of mites by August. A detail that caught a few, after moving bees up into the high country for fireweed, all the forestry roads closed for fire hazard, so a lot of bees were essentially abandoned for a few weeks because the roads were closed, not permitted to go up and tend to them or bring them home, so a lot of them came home rather late. Another detail that sideswiped a bunch of lower mainland folks, we ended up with a fairly large quarantine zone after the SHB discovery near Abbotsford, so there were a lot of bees that came home VERY late into late October and early November, which put a huge wrench into many well thought out management plans.

But one thought on this, with regards to any potential finger pointing, has stuck with me for a while now. At the BCHPA Semi-Annual in Kamloops recently, a wise man made a comment. If you want to do well on the bees, look to the folks who are consistently showing bees for sale in the spring, and do what they do. Bees are in short supply in BC this spring, poor winter survival and it turns out, there was some poor survival on package shipping this year too, so it's a double whammy for those caught short on their pollination obligations come blueberries. JM was up there with us at the semi, and he was the 'seller of bees' at that event. Nuff said.....


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## Ian

Fire first for sure, but when it's under control thinking past the ashes is important, I think you'd call that being progressive :thumbsup:


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## deknow

I am critical of applying a pesticide without controlling the dose, and I am critical of vaporizing a substance where temp is important (like OA vaporization) without controlling the temperature.

I'll take whatever criticism comes with having and expressing strong opinions on those counts.


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## Ian

Dean I understand you perspective but,

We know generally what this machine administers. We know the effects of over heating. Both places for improvement. 

We also know its efficacy even with an inconsistent dose, and from antidotal evidence guys are haveing a hard time overdosing as compared to administering OA with dribble. If it falls within the parameters and it is working... then is there a problem?


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## camero7

But Dean, you come from the no-treat school of thought so I wonder if any treatment would satisfy you. Almost every other poster in this thread is a treater and the discussion is about what works. Theory goes out the window when the bees are full of mites and virus. Then if the shop towel works, bring me a roll.


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## beekuk

deknow said:


> The industry has not bothered to do the simple technological task of making good vaporizers that control both temperature and dose.


Some have, well over in Europe they have.


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## Chip Euliss

A few observations from the OP:

1) The vmvaporizer is being used to control mites and it appears to be working very well thanks to the thorough treatments and thoughtful sharing of information, especially from Jean-Marc. This was the objective I hoped to achieve with the thread and my thanks to all who contributed. I've commented a few times but I'd wager that Jean-Marc has evaluated the vmvaporizer more than anyone, including the manufacturer! He has my respect and my thanks.
2) Questions relative to dose and temperature affects remain a concern and I hope future research will sort out any relevant facts we need to control mites more effectively. Future research will help but from what I've read (here and elsewhere), overdosing doesn't seem to be a salient concern with oxalic acid. That said, I'd guess there are some optimums (temperatures and doses) that would maintain long-term control and are affordable. Oxalic is inexpensive and it appears to be the first effective treatment that doesn't break the bank. That alone, will encourage responsible use once if there are some bugs to work out in the application process.
3) Beekeepers, like most other folks and professions, are plagued with new problems that require that we change our practices to be effective and stay in the game. Some hang on to older or more recent methods that have worked for them, some try new stuff and some experiment on their own. I think Jean-Marc hit it on the head when he said that our industry is small and we don't command the attention of the research community (and especially funding) of other professions, pursuits, and especially the industry that supports them. That's just the way it is and it's not likely to change unless people get as concerned about bees as other fields of human interest, like medicine, etc.


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## jean-marc

6 more wahses today and zero varroa. Checked 2 drop boards, one dropped 2 varroa over a 2 week period , the other dropped 1. i like the results so far.

Jean-Marc


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## Roland

Does water boil at different temperatures? Last time I checked, NO.

Due to the latent heat of vaporization of Oxalic acid, is the temperature of sublimation moderated? Probably so. So yes, it would be nice to have temperature and dose control, but we are not in a lab with controlled conditions. This unit must be rugged. Untii something better is developed, I will not loose sleep over the current situation.

Crazy Roland


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## MT204

Roland said:


> Does water boil at different temperatures? Last time I checked, NO.


Ah yes water does boil at different temperatures! Depends on what altitude your at and also the Barometric pressure.
Just for kicks water boils at about 215 degrees in Death Valley, 207 where I live and about 160 degrees on Mount Everest.


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## mbc

Allen Martens said:


> Jean-Marc
> Thanks for chronicling your journey using OAV. Very informative and useful. Great service to all reading BeeSource.
> 
> Ordered one today.


Yup, brilliant! Even for beekeepers on different continents.


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## mbc

Just for perspective on the nature of this pesticide, it would be difficult to vaporise more oxalic acid into a hive than exists naturally in a bunch of carrots, and most of the acid leaves the hives fairly swiftly after application. 
The concern with the stuff is breathing it while its a gas, not overdosing or residue.


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## Flyer Jim

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this discussion is how hot does vaporizer get. In the gold country of California, grass and weeds get very dry in the summer and my concern would be fire hazard.


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## The Honey Householder

I've been sitting back and see how thing came out on this. For one that has not treated for over 19 years now, see this to be something to try. My bee bill keeps getting bigger and bigger every year. Somewhere over $100K in bees to get started this year. Would love to have some other testing done before investing, but it looks like it's time the step in now and do some of my own. Might become a BEEKEEPER again.:thumbsup:


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## jean-marc

We have done another 21 washes in the past 3 days. Took one day off on account of heavy rain. we found our first mite in a wash yesterday. so far looks like 1 mite in 70 or so washes. Not bad at all. I would have expected to see more by now but, that has not been the case.

I purchased some more bottles to do the washes. Trained a few more of the crew to do this, so we are about to step up our washes.Instead of 1 bottle, there will be 5. We know they are there but so far I am pleased... especially considering we are having big patches of brood hatching. We are seeing a lot of young bees. The winter population has turned over and even the weak hives are starting to grow.

Jean-Marc


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## Chip Euliss

Great information Jean-Marc. My bees get back from California tomorrow and you're making me re-think my plan to rotate OA vaporization with MAQS. I've already ordered and received the strips so they'll get used as soon as the weather window for application cooperates. I'll do some before and after washes and them compare them to washes before and after OA vaporization next fall/winter. Your findings are very encouraging; I look forward to your future posts.


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## grozzie2

camero7 said:


> Thank you for your interest in the JB700 blower. It is a gentle blowing unit that runs on 12Volt and don’t need a compressor. The first batch was sold out in a week and the next are available in approx 2-3 weeks.
> The price is $ 365.00 + s/h, if you like to order on, send us an email for the reservation and a personal cheque. We cash the cheque only when the unit is in the mail.


That does look like a slick unit, and sized nicely for those of us that aren't doing a thousand hives at a time. Sold out in a week, who here ordered as soon as you saw the link ? I'm really interested in some feedback from somebody that got one from the first batch he made.


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## jean-marc

We did 53 washes yesterday and found 1 varroa. So far I like the results. My plan is perhaps formic acid mite wipes in may/june just to make their life miserable for awhile. I expect it will slow them down a bit. Come the last pull likely thymol right away and they will get me to late fall/early winter with fairly low levels. Randy Oliver influenced my long term thinking on this varroa problem. Knock the little rascals back throughout the season so that come late summer you do not have a high population of varroa cannibalizing the winter bees.

Soon we will star making nucs with our strong hives. This too reduces varroa pressure.

Thanks for the kind words Chip. I think if you hit them with the MAQS in May/June, again in late summer with MAQS or thymol then the fall/early winter oxalic sublimation should get thempretty clean before you head back to California. We don't need to get them to zero, we just need to make sure they don't get out of control.

Grozzie: I ordered as soon as I saw it. The price is right. If I get 10 of them, everybody has one and maybe in 1 day all hives are treated... perhaps 2 just cuz stuff happens. It does seem slick enough... temperature control and a fan. I am just not sure if it can maintain temperature for constant application that is needed in a commercial setting.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc

We washed 64 samples today... 1 varroa. I am glad we have found 2 of them... otherwise I would start to worry, like somehow we are doing something wrong. Still I gotta say, I am pretty tickled pink at this point with the results.

Jean-Marc


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## woodedareas

Jean-Marc
The results are excellent. However as a much smaller and non commercial beekeeper I have concerns about my health when using oxalic acid. It seems that the use of a product that requires a respirator and protective clothing is a sign that you are dealing with a very dangerous chemical.I do not have the same financial investment that you have and thus I am hesitant to consider adversely impacting my health for 10 hives of bees. It may sound ruthless but if I have to choose about protecting my bees from mites or possibly adversely impacting my health I know what I will do.It is true that all of the products are dangerous to human health but it would be advantageous for you to tell us what you and your workers are doing to protect yourself from conatmination.I just noted in the Illinois State Bee Club Newsletter that bee keepers ware already making visits to the emergency room.Any advice about protective measures would prove beneficial to anyone considering the treatments that you are using.


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## jean-marc

I did it with a half respirator and the worker had a full face shield. The cartridges on the respirator have to be organic vapor /acid gas. 
For 10 hives use one of the spoons that get heated like a varrox or the one from Heilyser. Then you can stand back when it is applied, but make sure you are wearing a respirator.
You can always dribble liquid oxalic acid mxed with the syrup, also very effective but a little harder on the bees. Evidently your health trumps 10 hives, so this could be a good compromise. A little harder on the bees but a lot safer to the applicator.

Jean-Marc


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## woodedareas

jean-marc
Thanks. That information is very helpful to me.


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## snl

woodedareas said:


> I just noted in the Illinois State Bee Club Newsletter that bee keepers are already making visits to the emergency room.Any advice about protective measures would prove beneficial to anyone considering the treatments that you are using.


Unfortunately, there are those who will not heed the advice of wearing a proper fitting acid/gas respirator. Wearing the proper equipment is not optional. In addition, have a smoker going and stand "up-wind" to avoid the vapors.


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## zhiv9

Lots of things are dangerous without the proper PPE. To operate a chainsaw, you should have hearing protection, a hard hat, kevlar chaps, gloves, steel-toe boots, etc - but I often see people where no protective equipment at all.

When using my Lega OAV, I wear a full face 3M mask with organic vapour cartridges, chemical resistant gloves and long sleeves and pants. I keep the wind direction in mind. I haven't had any issues at all. Formic acid can be dangerous too if you don't wear the proper equipment.


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## jean-marc

For sure you do not want to inhale this smoke. This is a bit of a drawback of this machine and also it's strength... it generates a lot of smoke.

We did 32 washes last 2 days... 0 varroa yesterday... 1 varroa in each of the 2 yards we visited today. 

Jean-Marc


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## woodedareas

I have always wondered about any beekeeper that uses OA or any chemical in their hives and the manner in which their customers are notified that such chemicals may exist in the honey they have just purchased. We have a serious problem with mites and other diseases but we have an equally serious problem when the general public is not advised that they may be eating a product that could be contaminated with chemicals. I could not sell my honey knowing that I have used some very toxic chemicals, and for that reason I do not use anything. It is always possible of the bees to visit areas that have had chemical applications, but that is far different than infusing a hive with a toxic substance. The commercial beekeeper has a serious economic and ethical problem that they must deal with. I visited a grocery store the either day and they have no idea about the source or quality of honey. They are satisfied with the term "natural or raw honey". I am not being critical of those who use chemicals to maintain their bee populations, but I am suggesting that the use of any chemical should be on the label or at least disclosed to the customer.


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## zhiv9

woodedareas said:


> I have always wondered about any beekeeper that uses OA or any chemical in their hives and the manner in which their customers are notified that such chemicals may exist in the honey they have just purchased.


Oxalic acid and Formic acid naturally occur in honey. It is important to understand the difference between these and the synthetic miticides.


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## jim lyon

Its also important to understand that responsible treatments in an on label manner eliminates any risk of residue. I would hate to think that I might be required to advertise, on a label, the fact that I had used OA on a hive containing no surplus honey supers the previous fall when there isn't any logical reason for there to be a problem as all that would do is unduly worry a potential consumer. My honey has always tested free of any miticide residue, I would much prefer the criteria to be actual testing data which most major packers require because of liability concerns. I say test away, I would be welcome to the notion of sharing those costs.


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## deknow

Jim, in my book, if the label says 1g per brood box, then applying 'a lot of smoke' qualifies as off label use...as does not using the proper PPE, or not taping cracks in the hive.

As far as I can tell, no one who is promoting the use of OA is paying much attention to using it on label.


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## snl

deknow said:


> As far as I can tell, no one who is promoting the use of OA is paying much attention to using it on label.


I beg to differ, I promote vaps and I'm constantly tell beekeepers to comply with the label.......


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## camero7

I just read the FDA regs on Oxalic Acid. Could not see any dosage requirements. Where are they and where do they come from?

https://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=EPA-HQ-OPP-2015-0043-0119


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## deknow

Cam, that isn't a label. Try this:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Wwsn8HV_mN7Ny7SJQ&sig2=qa-tqtnNomSytdFMa5FMBQ

Not only is dosage, sealing the hive, and PPE spelled out clearly, but timing is also specified.


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## deknow

snl said:


> I beg to differ, I promote vaps and I'm constantly tell beekeepers to comply with the label.......


Larry, copied from your website:


> When is the best time to utilize OAV?
> The very best time to use OAV is when the hive is broodless. Why? OA only kills phoretic mites – those on the bees, not in the brood. At that time OAV will kill an amazing greater than 95% of the mites in the hive! So when is the hive broodless or almost so?
> 1. At the beginning of winter (for many, somewhere between Thanksgiving and Christmas).
> 2. When you’ve hived a swarm. (wait till you see eggs before you vaporize).
> 3. When you’ve completed a split and removed most of the capped brood.
> 4. When you purchased a package and placed it in a hive (wait till you see eggs before you vaporize.)
> 5. If the bees are “flying,” the best time to treat is early morning or late evening when most are in the hive.
> 6. With brood breaks. Performing a treatment during this time will kill greater 95% of the phoretic mites.


Most of those situations do not line up with the label requirements.


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## Stephenpbird

There are many studies that prove OA treaments don't increase the levels of OA in honey, try this one.
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00891665/document
Until there is, why put it on the label?


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## deknow

snl said:


> I beg to differ, I promote vaps and I'm constantly tell beekeepers to comply with the label.......


...and you also constantly tell them that you don't follow the label, and that there are no negatives from doing so.


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## camero7

Wonder where they came up with 1g, since Heilyser says to use 2 g and they say to follow manufacturer's instructions. If one follows the 1g label I doubt that mites would be killed at such a high percentage.


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## beemandan

To my thinking, an otherwise useful and interesting thread is being actively derailed. Disappointing.


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## snl

deknow said:


> ...and you also constantly tell them that you don't follow the label, and that there are no negatives from doing so.


That's true as well. What I do in testing is very different from what I advise .......


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## Ian

The dosage applied by Jean-Marc is easily calculated by factoring the total product used over the hives treated. Well within general recommendations.


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## snl

Ian said:


> The dosage applied by Jean-Marc is easily calculated by factoring the total product used over the hives treated. Well within general recommendations.


Simplicity at its best! Thanks Ian........


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## Ian

snl said:


> Simplicity at its best! Thanks Ian........


I'm not sure what (........) implies, so I will ask, what would you suggest?


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## snl

camero7 said:


> I just read the FDA regs on Oxalic Acid. Could not see any dosage requirements. Where are they and where do they come from?


They are on the label......


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## jim lyon

Pretty sure any dosage regs relate primarily to what it takes to get control and has nothing to do with OA content in honey. Has anyone here ever heard of honey contaminated with high levels of OA?


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## Ian

.......a spoon full at a time is much simpler......


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## shinbone

woodedareas said:


> I have always wondered about any beekeeper that uses OA or any chemical in their hives and the manner in which their customers are notified that such chemicals may exist in the honey they have just purchased.


If OAV is applied when the honey supers are off, then there is no OA in the harvested honey.


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## Axtmann

shinbone said:


> If OAV is applied when the honey supers are off, then there is no OA in the harvested honey.


Shinbone, I don't agree with you. Some honey in untreated hives contains more oxalic acid than honey in treated hives, depends on the plants where the bees collect the honey. Oxalic acid is a natural ingredient of honey and there is "NO MRL" on oxalic acid in honey!


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## mbc

beemandan said:


> To my thinking, an otherwise useful and interesting thread is being actively derailed. Disappointing.


Aye, many thanks to jean-marc for the thoughtful and honest observations over thousands of treatments, very enlightened.
More of this sort of hing and less sniping from the sidelines is whats needed.


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## Rader Sidetrack

deknow said:


> Cam, that isn't a label. Try this:
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Wwsn8HV_mN7Ny7SJQ&sig2=qa-tqtnNomSytdFMa5FMBQ


Note that the EPA oxalic acid label supplied by Dean at that link is _not _the current document. A label revision was issued by the EPA in October 2015. Here is the _current _sample label from the EPA site:
https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/091266-00001-20151013.pdf


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## Ian

My neighbour dosed up 50 hives last fall before putting them away. He says they appear no different than the rest of the shed stress wise


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## woodedareas

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Note that the EPA oxalic acid label supplied by Dean at that link is _not _the current document. A label revision was issued by the EPA in October 2015. Here is the _current _sample label from the EPA site:
> https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/091266-00001-20151013.pdf


After reading this label I will find another alternative for my 10 hives.. Simply stated my health before the bees.We now have chemically dependent bees, and there is no rehab for them. On a serious note this is very sad state of affairs.


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## johno

An even sadder state is 10 dead hives from varoa infestation
Johno


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## Roland

Woodedareas, - No one is forcing you to use Oxalic acid. You may use what ever means you see fit. 

What method would you suggest a commercial beekeeper use to control mites?(my apologies to the OP for this transgression)

Crazy Roland


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## woodedareas

My point is that OA is a very toxic chemical, and that can cause serious health problems and death according to its label. In terms of controlling mites I prefer not to use it. You are correct some of my hive will dies every year, and I have decided my health is more important than the attempting to preserve a few hives. A commercial bee keeper is in a totally different position and will probably find that the risk is worth the reward as they have few other safer methods for controlling mites. I have been a businessman for over 40 years, and I have learned not to take risk when I do not have to. This is even a more valuable lesson when ones health is at stake. Each of us has to make their own decision. I have simply stated my decision , but understand your point of view. I would suggest a careful review of Radar Sidetrack link to the OA label before determining your course of action.
Best regards


johno said:


> An even sadder state is 10 dead hives from varoa infestation
> Johno


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## Stephenpbird

One of the best threads for along time being killed by off topic babble.


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## Barry

Let me remind everyone that this is the commercial forum. What applies to a hobbyist doesn't extrapolate out to commercial. Please keep this in mind when giving advise in this forum.


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## Ian

It's a public forum board, discussion related to the topic at hand... Get over it.


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## Roland

Woodedareas - Can you please explain to me how a 2.8 percent solution of oxalic acid(per EPA label recommendations) is dramatically different than the 1.48 gr/100gr found in chives(per wiki)?

I rather enjoy eating chives, and find no ill health results. 

Maybe we should ban the sale of chives?

Crazy Roland


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## Vance G

Anyone using this mite wonderweapon with the blower: my entrances are 1/4" deep. Would this machine shoot the fog thru that in your opinion? Or thru the one inch round holes in my hive bodies? If it would, it sounds like what I need. Thanks to the Op sharing his research. I am fond of bees and like killing mites efficiently and it sounds like safely. I am an adult and have a respirator and eat rhubarb in July! Now THAT is oxalic!


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## Allen Martens

Picked up my VM vaporizer about a week ago and after several days of using it I feel like I am getting the fairly consistent fog out of it.

It took me a while to figure out that too hot is more trouble than to cold. If it is too hot, only weak fog comes out at best, most of the OA is decomposed and not sublimated. If the heating element is turned off after a couple of hives and then turned on again after a hive or two, the fogging time per dose is greatly extended. Adding the OA when the heating element is a bit cool worked well and then turning the element on and waiting 10 - 15 seconds until the fog started coming out thick. Usually weak fog after a couple of hives means the element got too hot.

The vaporizer is impressively fast. I was getting a 150+ singles done per hour this evening working by myself. Probably could get 200 done per hour in a holding yard if my setup was more efficient.

Thanks to all who shared their experiences in this thread. Without that, this would have been much more challenging learning curve.


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## jean-marc

Yesterday we found 4 individuals mites out of 24 colonies that were checked. Day before was 6 out of 22. One colony had 3 varroa. Thatn was they first that hit 1% out of aout 500 that have been sampled before. On saturday we found 3 out of 18. Our levels are still incredibly low. I can hardly believe it, yet we are doing the washes.

Jean-Marc


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## dtp

Jean Marc and Allen. I am going to use my vm vaporizer extensively for the first time today. In between yards do you leave just turn off everything off or do you leave the compressor running so air continously blows through the unit? Thanks.


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## Allen Martens

I have only used it on a holding yard and not traveled between yards. I think I would not have it on for travel as it gets hot enough to get wood burning if the end is on the wood. Heating it up once in a while worked well for me to get rid of OA away from the pocket but at those temps the OA just decomposes.


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## dtp

I would turn the heat switch off. The instructions say to run the air for 15 minutes to cool down at the end of the day. I wasn't sure if the air should be continuously ran between yards? It seems like it will take a few uses to get the hang of it


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## Chip Euliss

Got mine a couple of weeks ago and just ordered some of the extra stuff the manufacturer recommended--I had some of the stuff already but did get the compressor since it weighed far less than the one I use in the shop. I should be ready to give it a shot a little later this summer. I treated with MAQS this spring and just finished follow-up mite checks using powdered sugar. So far, my mite loads are very low post treatment but I'll check them again prior to putting on honey supers; might be the first time I have to check it out till fall. My first impression is that it is very well built but I think I'll build a plywood box to transport it in and hold all the hoses, cords, etc. It's also a tad heavy but not overly so and it's long enough to use standing up versus bending over--a big plus for a bad back.


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## jean-marc

Today we got 2 mites in 20 washes. Still real low levels. 

I think the plywood box is a good idea... it helps protect the investment.

Jean-Marc


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## Flyer Jim

Allen Martens said:


> it gets hot enough to get wood burning if the end is on the wood..


What are the chances of starting a grass fire with one of these?


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## Allen Martens

Based on using the vaporizer for one week, I would say that is it is used correctly it seems very unlikely that there is a potential for starting a fire.

However, if it is propped against a hive once it is hot with the nozzle in the grass and the heating element is left on, I think it is almost certain that grass would be burning in 10-15 minutes. I will be constructing some kind of holder for the vaporizer so I can prop it up vertically but protect the nozzle end from combustibles. I have been carrying a 5 gallon fire pump along just in case.


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## Flyer Jim

thanks Allen. I've bad memories of almost setting Calaveras County on fire with a burgess fogger back when FGMO was the hot item


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## jean-marc

I would think that it would be relatively easy to start a grass fire if the nozzle end were touching grass. I do not think it would take 10-15 minutes in California, more like 2 or 3.

dtp-I just turned the unit off between yards. If I were to let the compressor running then the unit would be more or less cool at the next yard and ready to clean. It would require leaving the generator on to run the compressor between yards. Too much noise for me while driving.

Jean-Marc


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## Allen Martens

I think you are right Jean Marc. I put the vaporizer nozzle down on a piece of plywood for about 5 minutes this morning and there was a small fire on the plywood.

I find if the nozzle is hot enough to light wood, then the unit is too hot and doesn't fog well, just decomposes the OA.


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## dtp

Thank you for the advice. Vaporizer worked great but the recommended compressor overheated on me today after 300 hives. It was hot outside though and full sun. I may rig a small fan to continually help cool the motor on it since it doesn't shut off often.


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## Allen Martens

I've been using a medium sized compressor. Does not come on very often and work very well.


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## jean-marc

So are you other fellows seeing varroa dropping dead? Hopefully you did pre-treatment washes do determne your varroa levels. I am curious as to how things are going.

Jean-Marc


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## Chip Euliss

Me too. I'll do pre-treatment evaluations but it won't be till after the honey is pulled. Hopefully, others will provide some evaluations before then.


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## Allen Martens

I was running between 1% - 4% using alcohol washes at the end of the of October last year. This spring I have done 2 rounds of OAV with very little capped brood present. I do some testing next week to see where my VM numbers are.


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## Daniel Y

deknow said:


> Whether you 'see it as a pesticde' or not is rather irrlevent....it is a pesticide, it is registered as a pesticide, it is regulated as a pesticide, it is used as a pesticide.
> 
> If a small dose does just as much good as a big dose, it is poor practice by any standard not to setup the system to apply the small dose.
> 
> When treatments are approved for bees and more expensive than other formulations of the same chemical, they often complain, and they often buy another formulation and use it illegally.
> 
> I wonder how many apistan strips would have been used by beekeepers with varroa issues 15 years ago if each strip cost what a dose of oa costs.
> 
> The industry has not bothered to do the simple technological task of making good vaporizers that control both temperature and dose.
> 
> It's worth noting that the tobacco and marijuana industries have done both of these things....it isn't rocket science....even the potheads bothered to get it right.
> 
> I have nothing against any particular vaporizer, but I think temp control and dose control are important features that are mostly missing in the marketplace.


You sort of make up problems that don't exist. then when you cannot see a solution to them you then discount what has obviously been working fine all along. You say better control of dosage is necessary. results do not support your opinion. So you continue to wait for better dose control the rest of us will keep mites out of our hives. Because obviously it works without all that control you are worried about. You fail to recognize the period of "Discovery" that period ins which by trial and error it was discovered what works and what does not. this period is what accounted for all those unknowns and uncontrollable factors and yet produced results anyway. Know you want to claim some specification that those methods are not even concerned with and claim the method is flawed. Evidence does not support you random imagined problems exist.


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## Daniel Y

woodedareas said:


> I have always wondered about any beekeeper that uses OA or any chemical in their hives and the manner in which their customers are notified that such chemicals may exist in the honey they have just purchased. We have a serious problem with mites and other diseases but we have an equally serious problem when the general public is not advised that they may be eating a product that could be contaminated with chemicals. I could not sell my honey knowing that I have used some very toxic chemicals, and for that reason I do not use anything. It is always possible of the bees to visit areas that have had chemical applications, but that is far different than infusing a hive with a toxic substance. The commercial beekeeper has a serious economic and ethical problem that they must deal with. I visited a grocery store the either day and they have no idea about the source or quality of honey. They are satisfied with the term "natural or raw honey". I am not being critical of those who use chemicals to maintain their bee populations, but I am suggesting that the use of any chemical should be on the label or at least disclosed to the customer.


Stay away from the produce department. It is loaded with all sorts of acids and what not. By the way do you realize water is a chemical? Oh My!


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## Allen Martens

Did 5 washes today. Liked what I saw. First hive had 1 mite, the next 2 had no mites, the 4th hive had 2 mites and the last hive had 4 mites. The sample size on the last hive was about 400 bees and the samples were all 300 bees and all the samples were double washed.

The bees are still on their first round of brood. New bees should begin emerging this weekend. After that I intend to do a more thorough sampling. I am very curious to see what will happen.

I did 2 rounds of OAV, trying to catch the mites before much brood was capped. Weather was perfect when I vaporized with temps between 7 - 10C. If we get another cool spell next week I will try to get another round in or I might do a couple of rounds of mites wipes as I have the supplies kicking around.


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## dtp

I am going to do washes today and vaporize afterwards. Are you guys vaporizing at all during the day when the foragers are out of the hive? Does it make a difference at all? I noticed no I'll effects on the first 350 hives I have vaporized with the VM so far.


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## jean-marc

I did some washes today on 6 pallets. These hives were divided into 3 or 4 after cranberry pollination. The numbers represent the varroa found in alcohol washes using a varroa shaker. Samples size is half a cup of bees or about 300 bees.
5,5,2,2
1 1 2 2
0 0 2 2 
7 17 2 1
1 0 2 8
1 1 2 1

Other than that 17 and 8 everything looks pretty low. Colonies are still broody. All young queens. Ithink I will get thymol on these next week.

In our North Eatern Alberta location some hives returned from southern Alberta canola pollination. We looked at a load of 256 colonies and did 10 washes. these hives had no spring or summer treatments so far.
2 1 3 0 2 3 0 2 2 1

Yesterday the inspectors were over. We are silly over here and need big brother to give us his blessing before we can move our colonies. These hives were in honey production and got a MAQS in early to mid June.
5 2 3 2 0 5
0 2 1 0 0 1
1 2 0 0 10 2
2 1 0 0 0 0

If my math is correct 58 washes for a total of 122 varroa. That gives .7% varroa load.

She commented the hives were very strong. Too bad they did not make much honey. So far so good without the synthetics varrocides. I always find it interestingthat even though varroa numbers are low there are still some colonies with a lot of varroa. I guess these are the ones that are either highly susceptible to them. Perhaps these are some super reproductive varroa, perhaps those hives missed a treatment.

Also noteworhty is a little less than 15% of the hives (8 colonies) are harboring 62 varroa or about half the varroa.

Jean-Marc


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## zhiv9

jean-marc said:


> I always find it interestingthat even though varroa numbers are low there are still some colonies with a lot of varroa. I guess these are the ones that are either highly susceptible to them. Perhaps these are some super reproductive varroa, perhaps those hives missed a treatment.
> 
> Also noteworhty is a little less than 15% of the hives (8 colonies) are harboring 62 varroa or about half the varroa.


There has been some discussion regarding this on the BEE-L list recently. Everyone who is washing for mites seem to notice this, that there are always a couple of hives in yard with mite levels much higher than others. Randy has been letting large number of colonies started from nucs this spring get to higher mite levels. He is finding that the same is true on the other end. There are a few colonies that seem to be able to hold the mite levels at zero when colonies around them are averaging much higher.


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## acbz

jean-marc said:


> So far so good without the synthetics varrocides.
> Jean-Marc


JM

Thanks for the the great data. Your postings have been very informative. I've been trying to figure out how to get away completely from synthetic chem, but not having an extended broodless period in the winter (going to FL) makes it close to impossible. 

Did you notice any difference in queen viability or performance this year, not having been amitrazzed?

I recently did a small field trial on a new formic acid product that is being developed, and it did not kill mites.


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## jean-marc

Dunno about queen viablity, but maybe it was better. No complaints from the guys about queens starting to lay then they get superceded after 2 weeks of egg laying.

Formic is so tricky and I cannot see it being easy in a location like Florida where you can have brood year long. Did you try the MAQS or meat soaker pads or Mite-Gone's? These all work with their own pros and cons.

Jean-Marc


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