# Queen cell question



## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

Search--Supersedure Cells--


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Are you beginning the "7 day" count from egg-lay, or from the dissolution of the chorion (egg shell), when it becomes a larva? 

7 days from egg-lay, it should look like a fat grub in a better-than-half built queen cell.

7 days from becoming a larva, it should like a beeswax peanut, just about to be capped.


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## Grasshopper (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks Kilocharlie...that's what I was looking for. Based on my notes the very earliest an egg could have been laid by this new queen was 8 or maybe 9 days ago. The queen cells I found were both nearly capped, but had tiny larvae and just a dab of royal jelly in them. I sort of suspect that they started making queen cells as soon as she started to lay and have since stopped feeding them because she has several frames of new brood growing. I could be wrong and it's mostly a gut feeling but my plan is to let it go for another week and inspect again.

GH


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

With cells built tall, but small larva, it sounds like they are not just about to be capped, but built about 2 to 3 days ago. Just a guess.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Queen cells with only "tiny" larva in them, may appear to you, to be nearly ready to be capped. However, they may still be several days away from the actual capping time. Queen larva do grow extremely quickly, but if they are truly, "tiny", it should still be a day or more from being sealed in by capping.


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## Grasshopper (Apr 20, 2013)

Ok..thanks guys. I "assumed" that they built the cell as the larvae grew, but it seems you are saying that they build the cell quickly and then wait till the larvae is ready before capping. This colony is too small to split, so I will check them again this weekend and decide what to do then. If I can pull it off, I may take the queen out with a frame of brood and then see if one of my boomers can spare another frame of brood and try them in nuc. On the other hand, I'm not sure I want to keep committing resources to a colony that appears to want swarm at every opportunity. Thanks!

GH


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## Grasshopper (Apr 20, 2013)

Update: I checked the colony again this weekend and sure enough there was one very large queen cell capped on that last frame. I looked through the colony several times and never did find a queen. I also found no new eggs or larvae. The population was still on par with what it was before so I think they have not swarmed. I guess the new queen was defective or injured. There is still lots of pollen and nectar being stored, so I will just leave them alone for about 3 weeks and check again. Thanks for the input!

GH


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you start at 0 when the egg is laid and no time has elapsed, on day 3 1/2 the egg will hatch and on day 8 (4 1/2 days after it hatched) it will get capped. On day 8 it fills the cell pretty well. Once it is capped it starts spinning it's cocoon. As soon as that is done it starts changing into a pupae. On day 14 or so the bees start removing the wax from the end of the cell. On day 16 (+- a day) the new queen emerges.


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## Grasshopper (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm scratching my head here.....I observed them from out front yesterday and saw quite a bit of pollen being brought in. Pollen doesn't always mean anything, if it's available they'll store it. But the more I watched, I noticed that literally every forager that returned was loaded down with fat baskets of yellow pollen. My curiosity got the better of me. I opened them up and went right to the frame that had the queen cell on it and it had been ripped open from the side. There were also two more cells above it and to the right. I pulled the outer frame that was being drawn and started into the brood area and was surprised to find the queen. Watched her lay in a couple of cells and then put them back. Checked the other frames and found two excellent frames of capped brood on both sides and one with new larvae in them. I have no idea what they're doing. I guess it's best to let them sort it out. I left the two cells and plan to check again in a week or so. I have a feeling that as soon as those virgins start piping, they're gonna get it. We'll see...


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## mlmihlfried (Apr 17, 2014)

I read that Russian bees will keep "just in case queen cells". They keep a few going and tear them down before they emerge. Maybe that is what's happening?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I've read wear a triangular abdomen on a queen is a sign of being poorly mated maybe they are keeping queens on standby for the day she peters out ??? One of my hives is doing something similar I thought I may have killed the queen because I saw a few SS cells so I waited and when I looked I saw no eggs but a frame of capped brood and my old queen she seems to lay in spurts she will fill one or two frames out completely and then I won't see anything for awhile and they start building cells and then she seems to go again and they tear them down FWIW my queen has a slightly triangular shape to her as well


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## Grasshopper (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks for the thoughts. I'm still not sure what's going on, but have decided that doing nothing may be about as effective as doing _anything_ just to make me feel better about the whole thing. I will update again when I next inspect them.

GH


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## Wolfer (Jul 15, 2012)

Back when my Russians were more Russian than ferel they nearly always had a queen cell going. About the time it would hatch they'd tear it down and start another.
They haven't done that in the last few generations. I rekin their more ferel than Russian now.


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## Grasshopper (Apr 20, 2013)

Went back into them today and found a hatched queen cell and no sign of the old queen. They have about a frame of ready to emerge brood and the rest of it is becoming backfilled with nectar. I hope they get it right this time. I'll check them again in a couple weeks. If they're still not queen right, I'll probably combine them with another big colony.....


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Just some guesses, Grasshopper - I think your first queen cell back in your original post did hatch and her sisters were tearing down her cell. The spotty brood pattern happens while combs are being rebuilt, when queens are still very young, and probably more often with Russians, especially early in the season or if a late cold snap happens. Any of these cases were probably no cause for alarm. I also would guess you had difficulty spotting any virgin queens - they are NOT easy to spot.

Your main sign to cue in on is the brood - if it is uncapped, a laying queen has been around recently. If there are eggs, she's been laying in the last 3 1/2 days.

Gotta watch those Russian colonies - once they get going, they build up about twice as fast as Italian colonies, and will swarm on you if you get complacent. I'd check Russians at least every 10 days. Good luck.


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