# Wintering Nucs - Redux



## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

I watched this past weekend with great interest Michael Palmer's hour-long video on Sustainability that he presented in England (this was on Youtube and I recommend it HIGHLY).

I figured out how the bottom and top boxes are constructed, but am really unclear on the bottom board (how are the entrances done in the bottom board, or would folks recommend the entrances in the side of the nucs).

Does someone have plans or diagrams somewhere or a book to point me toward so I can build a couple of two-story overwintering nucs?

Thanks,
Rick


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## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

I made up some double bottom mediums this past year. I'm using the bottoms as queen castles also. My Nucs are custom sized, 6 frames each. I cut an extra dado down the middle of each end board to split the sides again. I can slide in a 1/4 inch divide when I want to use as a queen castle. I mated some queens in them this past summer.

I do not rip down the stock, the extra depth allows room for queen cells off the bottom of the frames when using for queen castle. The entrances are just a dado cut into each section. When using for NUCs, I block off the end sections. I'm still thinking about other alternatives for entrances if I build more.


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## JasonA (Aug 29, 2014)

I think Betterbee sales a Palmer style 4 over 4 nuc. 

Here is the link to the  bottom board so you can see a picture of how it is made. Hope it helps.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

Because of the climate I live in I have both entrances facing out the front. Is there some drifting I would say it's likely. I keep the double nucs on hive stands with four on the stand. In the winter I slide all four together side by side and wrap them all together. So far so good- all alive so far.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

rweaver7777 said:


> Does someone have plans or diagrams somewhere or a book to point me toward so I can build a couple of two-story overwintering nucs?
> 
> Thanks,
> Rick


Rick, I am not up on what your climate is like in TN, but I seriously don't think you need double story nucs.
Many, many thousands of single story 5 frame nucs are over wintered every year in Washington and Oregon successfully as single story 5 framers.
The trick is to have new queens and to feed them up to about 45 lbs by early October.
I went for years and years having never lost a single one, overwintered. Then finally I lost one, so I cant brag about that anymore.
But if you have new queens, address your pest & disease control and feed them up to weight, your overwintered single story nucs will be one of the most reliable things you do in beekeeping.
If I lived in Northern Minnesota, Alaska or Wisconsin, I would wonder about adding a second story.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

rweaver7777 said:


> I watched this past weekend with great interest Michael Palmer's hour-long video on Sustainability that he presented in England (this was on Youtube and I recommend it HIGHLY).]
> 
> does someone have a link to this?... thanx


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Just Google search Youtube,

Steve


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Here are some ideas to chew on.
Look carefully at the weights and the amount of weight loss from month to month:

http://orsba.proboards.com/thread/2743/overwintering-nucs-2011


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

mathesonequip said:


> does someone have a link to this?... thanx


The Sustainable Apiary by Michael Palmer: http://youtu.be/nznzpiWEI8A

Queen Rearing in the Sustainable Apiary by Michael Palmer: http://youtu.be/R7tinVIuBJ8

Keeping Bees in Frozen North America by Michael Palmer: http://youtu.be/fFanJbaigM4

Best three bee videos on YouTube as far as I'm concerned.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

rweaver7777 said:


> Does someone have plans or diagrams somewhere or a book to point me toward so I can build a couple of two-story overwintering nucs?


The outside dimensions of the bottom are the same as your hive. Mine are 16 1/4 x 19 7/8

The bottom has two parts, the body and the rim. 

The body is 1/2" CDX plywood. Cut to approx. 15 1/2 x 19 1/8 I say approx. because the body will float in the rim and shouldn't exactly tight in the dado cuts, just close.

The rim is 3/4" pine ripped to 1 1/4...3/8 for bee space-1/2 for body-3/8 for bee space. The rim has end pieces and side pieces of that stock. The ends are cut to 16 1/4 and the sides to 19 1/8 long
The rim pieces must be milled with a dado blade...or router I guess...to accept the body. Also, the corners are rabbeted joints so must be milled. 

The ends and sides receive a 1/2" rabbet 3/8" deep, in the center lengthways. The ends receive matching cuts, but also receive 3/4 wide x 3/8 deep cuts to fit with sides.

The body is inserted into the rim, and the rim is fit together at the corners...glued and stapled at the corners only. No need to glue or staple the rim to the body. It floats. 

In the photo the entrances are cut on opposite sides. You can also make them front and back instead. I changed all of mine to front and back.

There's a 3/4 x 18 3/8? x 3/8 thick in center of body front rim to back rim. Nail and glue, or clinch nails so cleat won't get pulled off.










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## JasonA (Aug 29, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> The Sustainable Apiary by Mike Palmer: http://youtu.be/nznzpiWEI8A
> 
> Queen Rearing in the Sustainable Apiary: http://youtu.be/R7tinVIuBJ8
> 
> ...


+1 :thumbsup:

I bet I've watched them each 10 or more times. Even the comb honey one is great.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

JasonA said:


> +1 :thumbsup:
> 
> I bet I've watched them each 10 or more times. Even the comb honey one is great.


I will occasionally put a Michael Palmer video on the TV and turn it up so my wife can hear it. She recognizes his voice. .. "How many times are you going to watch these?" She thinks I have a crush on him.

And yes, comb honey one is good too.
Comb Honey Production by Michael Palmer: http://youtu.be/nIjiInZRxrQ


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

One thing I do different is I make two bottom boards one for each side. Then take some plumbers pipe hangers tape and fasten the bottom board to the bottom Nuc box. This way I can get one side out easyier at a time. 
David


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Mr.Vanderpool is right in Tn you don't have to go through all of that. I overwinter 4 frame singles with no issue 4 over 4s ( or 5 over 5) seem to go into swarm mood no matter what you do. They are hard pressed to use up all the honey in the lower box in Tn they never get up into the top or not enough to go through the extra work. I've overwintered 4 over 4 quite a few times and only go that route now to harvest swarm cells. The singles work out the best and the dead outs are always the 4 over 4s. Move them into a bigger box around the 15th of March and they do pretty **** good. I over winter a lot of 10 frame singles that do well but the 4 frame singles do the best. I use all deeps for what it's worth.


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## Knisely (Oct 26, 2013)

It's interesting that a single 4 frame nuc will do well for you. Do you have Italian, Carniolan, mutt bees? I have trouble reconciling your statement with the recommendation for 70# of honey for a winter. Obviously, bigger colonies need more supplies, and TN is not MN.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Here are some ideas to chew on.
> Look carefully at the weights and the amount of weight loss from month to month:
> 
> http://orsba.proboards.com/thread/2743/overwintering-nucs-2011


Interesting study Harry! You should post a thread that gives those recipes for the nuc by season you go by.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Here are some ideas to chew on.
> Look carefully at the weights and the amount of weight loss from month to month:
> 
> http://orsba.proboards.com/thread/2743/overwintering-nucs-2011


Nice Harry. Another way to cook the stew. 

When were the first photos taken...with those beards. Post was in August. If I had nucs populated like that in August, with the goldenrod flow starting up, and that week of hot, humid we always get then, those bees wouldn't be there for long. They would surely abscond, but I guess not where you are.

Just goes to show why there are so many different stews to cook up in our bee management, and why so many different opinions...different means for the same ends.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I too, would like to see Harry's recipe list if he has the time to share it.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Knisely said:


> It's interesting that a single 4 frame nuc will do well for you. Do you have Italian I have mutts RussianxCarniolanxItalianx with God knows what. They overwinter like Russian and Carniolans but brood up early like Italians, slow down to a steady crawl like Russians and Carniolans during periods of dearth. The winter clusters normally are not much bigger than a softball and don't run through the stores like Italians. if clusters are the size of a football going into winter those are the ones that don't make it. I've kept bees in MI and the standard there for me was double deeps with 120 lbs. of stores on Italians and some years that was even iffy. The average beekeeper in TN usually leaves about 40 to 60 lbs. on a full size colony check with other TN beeks I'm sure most will tell you the same however those in the mountains will overwinter different then the rest of us. Tn is a very mild climate compared to WI, MN, OH, MI so on and so worth why do you think a lot of commercial operator winter in the south? I run hives in WV, TN, AL but overwinter in TN and AL maybe ask why I don't overwinter in WV.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Slow Drone said:


> maybe ask why I don't overwinter in WV.


OK I'm gonna take the bait on that one Slow D. WHY?


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Bees use less feed to overwinter in the south build up sooner which allows you to pull more honey and hives are ready for pollination earlier. The economics works out to my advantage. I'd rather sell sixty to eighty pounds of surplus then give it away which is what I was doing overwintering hives in the north, just giving away honey to the bees. I've kept bees not to far from you in WV they did by far better there than they did in MI. I have a brother in Henna and one in northeast WV also. I have a lot of family in the Henna area. If you are in beekeeping in that area for a number of years you may possibly know my Uncle Jack or have heard of him. May need some help around Henna this spring or summer if you're interested.


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## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> The outside dimensions ... won't get pulled off.


Michael, thanks for the details and taking the time to reply. And for posting (or letting the England folks post) those videos. I haven't watched them all yet, but I want to be sustainable with my 4 hives. Any increase I have from my nucs I will sell or use to enhance one of those four.

So far all are surviving (as well as the swarm that took up residence in a wood duck box at our house), and we had a severe cold snap a few weeks ago. I hope we have no more 10 degree weather, and to have some good news about honey crops this year, and good strong hives.

I've learned so much from here, many kudos to Barry and all of you who provide such good information!

Thanks again!
Rick


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> I too, would like to see Harry's recipe list if he has the time to share it.


Well, I can,,but don't think it would be of much value to you in your location.
As Michael pointed out for example, late flows in Vermont would have the nucs blowing out all around you if managed the Oregon way.
In the Willamette Valley, here in Oregon, there are no late flows.
Our main flow (blackberry) begins in early June and burns out by the 4th of July.
For those involved in crop pollination such as myself, there can be an additional teency / weency flow from those crops but just enough to delay feeding, and that's just about it.
So my nuc recipes actually surround our timing of nuc assembly in relation to the blackberry flow.

But the main critical factors remain the same.
One must know how much feed your nucs will need to make it through in your region.
I'm guessing a double decker is the way to go for you!

And by the way, Adrian, I have a friend that attends our meetings that moved from WI.
When folks say that much of beekeeping is regional; NOTHING illustrates that more than Oregon / Wisconsin beekeeping!
I know exactly what your winters are like, but that is not all.
A lot of your terminology and procedures are way different.
He had never heard of a "western" super after 50 years of beekeeping.
He had an entirely different name for it that I had never heard.
Great guy and excellent beekeeper, but it is as if we came from totally different beekeeping planets.
Usn's out west envy your late flows.
The only late flow out here comes out of a tank into a feeder.


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## beeksmith (Jul 11, 2014)

I am in Idaho in zone 6, what zone would you think you could overwinter single nucs as compared to double nucs?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

beeksmith said:


> I am in Idaho in zone 6, what zone would you think you could overwinter single nucs as compared to double nucs?


 it depends on colony size. and length of winter between fall and spring nectar flows.


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## beeksmith (Jul 11, 2014)

I was thinking 5 frame Nucs.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

in Idaho I would think you would need a double 5. maybe a triple.


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

beeksmith,
we are in eastern oregon, zone 6ish. I have been experimenting with overwintering nucs for the last couple years. Only a handful. I was hoping to put more into winter this last fall but we wound up using our nucs to fix hives. 
Regardless, I put a couple of 8frame singles into winter this year. A week or so ago we had a chance to check them and feed them and they looked fantastic. We also put a couple of 4 frame nucs into winter. Likewise, they looked pretty good on population but I used one to fix a dronelayer and another to fix a queenless hive. 
The singles will grow out really well. The 4 framers, I don't think I would bother growing them out, but they work really well to fix queen problems early and I am glad I had them. 
So you should be able to winter nucs just fine in Idaho. But timing is everything. You want a young queen who is laying strong in the fall to build up the population. The nucs we wintered this year were late july or early august queens, I cant remember exactly right now.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Great info HarryV. And thanks for the great link.

I've just been weighing my nuc parts to find some weights, so I can weigh some of my wintering nucs to see what kind of shape they're in, and my empty weights line up with yours so I feel I'm in the ball park.
My nucs are indoor wintering so the honey consumption will be on a whole different scale of #'s , but now I have something to compare mine to even though yours are outside. Next year I'm going to try some indoor and outdoor nucs and I'll try to error on the safe side also. 
I have 7 full size hives outside and have lost 2 of those to starvation (operator error & italians) but 5are still thriving and am getting closer to spring everyday, but I really love the nucs,,,, thanks again 

==McBee7==


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

It is fascinating stuff. I am reading Seeley's "Honeybee Democracy". With regard to cavity size he says wild colonies won't select a cavity smaller than 12 liters, with about 40 liters being the preferred volume. I calculated a single 5 frame deep plus the space in the bottom board to be about 24 liters, there is an additional spacer below the deep box which adds 7 liters of space. My 5 over 5 frame deeps come to about 46 liters.
I have 3 single 5 frame units still chugging along as of this afternoon. I am convinced that the 5 over 5 frame nuc has a lot of potential in this region. The 5 over 5 framer is my preferred unit as I think there is more margin for error, but i would like to test more single 5 framers over the next few years. There is much winter left. I have built some shims and will add some sugar to the top of my single 5 framers in a couple of weeks or so when I feel it is worth a peek. 
I believe the goal in an overwintering unit of any configuration is to ensure that the colony has bees in proportion to it's space, and there are enough stores that the bees can't move without bumping in to food. Because a nuc is smaller it is easier to feed to weight, and it is easier to lift and weigh it.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

I wonder if anyone has any idea of how many pounds of bees we're talking about in a single 5 frame nuc or in a 5over5?
The easiest way would probably be to weigh a starve out.
This would remove the weight of remaining honey or stores and also the weight of the bees. If the C.O.D is from condensation then you have soggy (heavy) bees which would give a errant weight for the occupants.
Sorry if this sounds morbid....just science (i hope) 

==McBee7==


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Rick, I am not up on what your climate is like in TN, but I seriously don't think you need double story nucs.
> Many, many thousands of single story 5 frame nucs are over wintered every year in Washington and Oregon successfully as single story 5 framers.


Some of my best nucs were single 4 frame mediums in NC. But I have also recently supered up 4 over 4's, as the queen ran out of room to lay. They were packed. The deadouts allowed this. I think possibly the only thing better about striving for 8 frame nucs or 10 frame nucs vs just singles. IMO for my management style and sales goals.


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## Lost Possom (Jul 17, 2013)

I Lost 4 out of 5 of the 5 frame Nucs I built in August. I fed heavy until October. Still starved about 2 weeks ago. There were so many bees in all nucs . i think this lead to too much food being needed. I fed sugar patties but still not enough. Western Ky had mild winter so far. Not really sure. Any other ideas?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Lost Possom said:


> I fed heavy until October.


Fed how much of what, and how often with how much.


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## Lost Possom (Jul 17, 2013)

I was feeding 2:1 sugar syrup with 1gallon paint cans. Fed on t


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## Lost Possom (Jul 17, 2013)

On top of frames. With empty box. Kept feed on at all times.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

How much feed in total did they take? When did you feed?


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## Lost Possom (Jul 17, 2013)

Fed several gallons from Mid August when i built Nucs till mid October.Maybe 3 to 4 gallons per nuc. Did not notice very much robbing but possible. Looked like hives had lots of food but still had queens laying some too. Some brood in hives early October. Will Queens produce more bees than they can feed? Feeding too much possible?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The idea I have using MP's overwintering method
was not to over feed the nuc hive too early into
the Fall. If there is not enough fat winter bees
going into the winter to replaced the Fall dead bees
then feeding too much while clogging up the brood nest
will result in a failed nuc hive here. Leaving enough small
open brood cells so the queen can lay in small patches during the
winter months will ensure their survival at the same time the
older foragers are dying away. I stopped feeding syrup so that
they will not back fill the brood nest completely during the late Fall here. Having too many bees will starve them out if not enough feeds inside the hive during the winter months. Either that or a failed queen will do that too. My strategy is to use the mated young queen in September for nucs going into the winter. Do you use young mated queens in your nucs too, LP? Also, do you use a double queen, doule nucs set up so they can share in the heat during the cold winter months? 
Now it is almost the Spring time here. So I had lifted the divider and combine the double nuc, double queen into a single nuc hive now. Moved one of the queen into another nuc hive for expansion. The 2 nucs balanced each other by providing broods bees to help them along. No robbing so far as they are collecting from the outside now.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Lost Possom said:


> Fed several gallons from Mid August when i built Nucs till mid October.Maybe 3 to 4 gallons per nuc. Did not notice very much robbing but possible. Looked like hives had lots of food but still had queens laying some too. Some brood in hives early October. Will Queens produce more bees than they can feed? Feeding too much possible?


From your OP, I see you have single story, 5 frame nucs. You fed several gallons to each between August and October. They starved anyway....

Well, the combs in a 5 frame nuc can't hold 3-4 gallons of feed. I'm guessing that the little colonies used the feed to raise brood, and they were still in brood rearing mode in October. You said, "There were so many bees in all the nucs"...which confirms what happened. Were these Italian bees? They certainly can raise too much brood and use up all their winter stores.

Anyway, I think that's what happened. I don't know KY beekeeping and weather. When do colonies normally shut down brood rearing in KY? I do know that nucleus colonies will raise brood later into the Fall than production colonies...at least in my observances. 

So what to do next time...

You could add a second story of 5 combs and do your heavy feeding and then the bees would have stored the feed above...maybe. 

You could have fed just enough for colony maintenance until the flows are finished or almost finished. When is your last nectar flow? Mine is from Goldenrod/Aster. It's all done by the end of September. I feed what the little colonies need for winter, starting about the middle of September. Perhaps you need a combination of the two?

Since you're so much further south than me, do you even need to feed until the middle of October? You still have time for the bees to ripen the syrup after that, don't you? So when that time comes around, pull each frame, observe how much feed there is in each, estimate how much feed will be required to fill the necessary combs, and feed that much. Here, a 5 frame nuc needs about 4-4.5 frames of feed. You can feed two gallons to a strong nuc in less than two weeks. At that point you could re-evaluate the feed levels one more time and top off if necessary.


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## Lost Possom (Jul 17, 2013)

Thanks for the tips Michael Palmer I appreciate it .These are Italian bees. most of my other full size hive had quit brooding by First of October. our honey flow had stopped by then. we did have a pretty good honey flow in fall. As I took a pretty good crop off my other hives. I like the idea of having the fall nucs .last year it definitely kept my numbers where I wanted to be .I'm still okay for this year but we still have February and March. I may try to save some frames of comb for next years fall nucs for putting on another 5 frame box. thanks again for the tips and also thanks for the wonderful videos you put online.


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## Huxta (Nov 11, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> The Sustainable Apiary by Michael Palmer: http://youtu.be/nznzpiWEI8A
> 
> Queen Rearing in the Sustainable Apiary by Michael Palmer: http://youtu.be/R7tinVIuBJ8
> 
> ...




3 years later and I still agree. Best three bee videos on YouTube. I've watched several times and listen to them as I drive.


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