# Introduced Queens superseded



## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

I reared over 40 Carnica queens and let them mate in 2 frame nucs. They were then left to lay up the frames so I could evaluate the brood pattern. Once I was happy with them I used the queens to requeen my production hives and requeened again if I had any rejected. A week later I verified that the new queens were laying in the production hives . So I know that all hives had a new laying clipped and marked queen at the end of August. The next thing I found was no queen and supersedure cells in all but two colonies. So late in the season I let the bees do there own thing which worked well. The down side is that all colonies are ok on cluster size for winter but much smaller than I would like because of the supersedures.
Has anyone else experienced such a high percentage of superseded queens? Why did the bees do that if they had a good laying pattern and had already accepted the new queen?

Thanks


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Next year, do everything the same, but do not clip the wings.
Please remember to report back and tell us the results.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Next year, do everything the same, but do not clip the wings.
> Please remember to report back and tell us the results.


I have heard that clipping may cause supersedure but never had problems before, with such an easy fix I will try it. I hope your right.

Thank you for the reply.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I have also heard that clipping can lead the bees to see a Queen as defective. Have never experienced that, because I don't clip wings. G


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Either that, or perhaps mating conditions were poor or drone availability was low? I've introduced a few clipped queens and have had queens with damaged wings post mating survive years.... Perhaps you clipped too much or something though


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

I've not had problems before with clipping queens. All the queens I have now I clipped too. 

Searching the internet I see that Nosema can be a cause of supersedure.
This statement from the Glenns website, "Nosema ceranae and Nosema apis. This is a very important disease to control because infected queens are often superseded in a few weeks". 
And this study, Pathological effects of the microsporidium Nosema ceranae on honey bee queenphysiology (Apis mellifera) "We found that infection by N. ceranaedid not affect the fat body content (an indicator of energy stores) but did alter the vitellogenin titer (an indicator of fertility and longevity), the total antioxidant capacity and the queen mandibular pheromones, which surprisingly were all significantly increased in Nosema-infected queens. Thus, such physiological changes may impact queen health, leading to changes in pheromone production, that could explain Nosema-induced supersedure (queen replacement)".


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I clip almost all my queens and have no issues










Although it is not what you described, missing a started queen cell upon introduction of a mated queen usually results in failure. Mated queen is released and laying . The queen cell continues to grow, hatches and the virgin queen kills the newly installed mated queen. Think about your time line and what you_ actually_ saw. Were those 'supercedure' cells capped or had they hatched? Were they actually cells the colony started when you removed the established queen? With a failure rate that high, I'd bet money on it.

That's why I give NO queenless period when installing a caged queen. I don't give them a chance to start queen cells in the first place. They are still aggressive towards a new queen after 24 hours, so why wait? I find a queenless period only causes trouble and extra labor of checking and removing started cells.

If I've installed a queen in a colony and find this later...Uh Oh.



















Typical supercedure cell


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Good point Lauri, I didn't even think about that the way they phrased the topic.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

That's what has confused me the most, I would have expected to see a few different scenarios.
Lauri the old queen was removed and the new immediately placed in the hive in a queen release cage. A week later the cage was removed, queen found and the hive checked for eggs. All seemed well.
So in 7 days I had been through all the hives twice and found all the queens old and new and not seen one queen cell. Two weeks later I had capped and uncapped queen cells and no queens. 21 Days after I killed the old queens.

The only thing I have done differently from last year is use those numbered disk you glue on (Lauri your photos reminded me) last year I used a paint pen. So the queens were caught, marked, clipped, placed in the introduction cage and within the hour or so placed in their new colony.
I think I might make a load of those press in cages for next year, requeen end of July so I have time fix any mishaps and Not clip as Harry suggested. Maybe leave the clipping until March just before swarm season.

Thank you for the reply's.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I hope you can figure it out!

I actually don't clip them for swarm prevention. I do it so if they are sold, they can't fly away when introduced by the new owner, especially if placed under a push in cage. 

They also need attendants when shipped, but if they need to be banked upon being received, it is easier to get the attendants out if the queen is clipped. Again, so she won't make her break. Even the fat one can still fly when they are young.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

Lauri said:


> I hope you can figure it out!


Thanks, I have been mulling it over for 8ish weeks now with no logical answer apart from the recorded dates must be wrong :scratch:. Even if I don't figure it out I will be much more vigilant next year.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

How do you make your 40 queens and when?
Maybe to make 80 queens in smaller batches one after another.
My thinking is how well these cells are fed when in development.
And the evaluation time is too short. At least give them a 2 brood cycles before
using them as production queens. And don't just kill the old queen yet. Put her in a 
nuc for backup just in case it did not work out. Sometimes they don't like the new queen when
it is still hot in the summer time. The Autumn requeening is better so time your queen rearing out to 
match the season.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

beepro said:


> How do you make your 40 queens and when?


2 batches of 20 mid July, 40 grafted larva are placed in a 5 frame swarm box as a starter colony, 10 cells are placed in each queen right finisher. 24 hours before emergence the cells are caged with 3-4 attendents. Virgins are run in to (5)4 way mating nucs with no loses but I have to watch for rouge cells. Incidentally I get about 5% losses on mating flights, Grafting success is low at 60-70% takes.



beepro said:


> My thinking is how well these cells are fed when in development.


10 brood frames of bees shaken into the swarm box fed pollen frame, sub and syrup. The finisher colonies were fed syrup and pollen.



beepro said:


> And the evaluation time is too short. At least give them a 2 brood cycles before using them as production queens And don't just kill the old queen yet. Put her in a nuc for backup just in case it did not work out.


I am aiming to move from a hobby to sideliner operation. So maybe I would need a few 100 queens a year, keeping new queens in the mating nucs for so long would become a serious bottleneck and adding the extra step of keeping the old queens would work well at the moment. But I need to learn the skills and develop a system that can scaled up simply.




beepro said:


> Sometimes they don't like the new queen when it is still hot in the summer time.


 95-100ºF It was hot and very dry.

Thanks for the ideas beepro, I am still learning and the bees have just given me a harsh reminder of that fact.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Assuming that your weather is much like California here except
for the snows. In the summer time when it is too hot the bees are
busy fanning and bearding to keep their hives cool. So making a
strong mating nuc without any kind of shading on top is hard on the
cells. It is too hot in the summer time! 
Under the ideal condition depending on the nice weather in early/mid April through
July 4th is the best time for making queens. A few weeks later the weather can change quickly here. So starting on the summer dearth making queens is not the best way to go. You might get queens but they are not the best. Early season queens when the hives have build up to the swarm mode will give you the best cells and queens. So you might have a few months of ideal condition to make them there. Taking advantage of that should give you some healthy cells that are less likely to be superseded. You will have to set up many healthy hives in order to give you the needed queens and mating nuc bee resources in a short amount of time. Knowing your local environment and your bees behaviors should let you plan better the next time you graft.
Now let's talk about the hive condition inside. Instead of using the shaken bees and a swarm box method I suggest to give the cloak board method a try. It will take you some time to read through this method. You will need to really packed the hives with young nurse bees in order for this one to work. I will give you some tips to increase the bee power 2-3 times should you want to try it out. The result is much larger and well fed cells. We all know how important it is for the cells to be well taken care of.
Another issue is with the caging of the cells with the 4 attendants. As soon as the virgin hatched she needs nourishment. Sometimes when she cannot get out on the comb to feed she will eat one or 2 attendants inside the cage. Have you seen this happened before? I have. So no need to cage the queen just let her hatch inside the mating nuc and roam freely. It is an extra step that you have to ran her into the mating nuc. Be as natural as you possibly can here. That means you have to make up the mating nucs ahead of time and to make sure there are enough bees to stay to keep the cell(s) warm until she hatched.
Before you make the big jump to increase your hive numbers make sure
you understand how the bees behave such as inside the hive and the outside
environmental influences. Without these little understanding pushing forward for
an increase is much harder. Too much time is lost but this is o.k. since we are learning to be a better 
beekeeper. The same thing with making new queens and increasing the hive population both in the Spring time and in the Autum after the summer dearth. 
Each step should give you more understand as your experience grow over time. Keep on improving on your set up I guess!


Big cells, large fat queens:


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

I have been working my way through several different methods of queen rearing per year, and have tried most of the ones mentioned here on beesource. Including the cloak board. I must admit It was my least favorite so far and I wont be revisiting that method. Michael Palmers method I have tried and works very well but seems overkill for the amount of queens I need per batch. I have destroyed many many queencells and queens that have not matched up to my best efforts so I am confident, as much as one can be, that the cells I produce are of a good quality.

I think you are correct that the better way is to place cells in the mating nucs, I to have had my best results this way. Caging of the cells with the 4 attendants and leaving the virgin to emerge into the cage is a common practice here with good results. Though I will not be doing it that way next season. I have read recently that it is possible that the bees bite the legs of the newly emerged queens and this could be a reason for the high supersedure rates. Cells in the mating nuc for me from now on.

Next year I shall use the press on cage for introductions and I will follow Harryvanderpool's advice.

I am at the stage where I have more hives in the rearing apiary than I want during the season, rearing queens seems to have that effect. 20 Mating hives could be 10 nucs to overwinter quite easily and I often combine hives in winter just to get the numbers down


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, I agree with the high number of cells per batch per hive.
You can get away with 10 cells in a strong hive for some excellent queens..
Because the chosen larvae for the potential queen develop rapidly from the
beginning that needed differnt RJ nourishment, doing the shake down method of the 
starter hive is not ideal to me it seems. If you can some how manage then do a 10
cells graft per batch. That means you might have to manage more than
one cell builder/finisher at different time frame.
The present cloak board method isn't efficient enough to harnest all the
foragers for the nurse bees inside the hive. So in order for the cells to
better fed more foragers are needed to spice up the cell builder/finisher.
Queen rearing is fun! I just cannot wait until the Spring time again to try
out the many little bee experiment I do every year.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Next year, do everything the same, but do not clip the wings.
> Please remember to report back and tell us the results.


 No wing clipping or marking this year. I know it is not August yet but All Queens have been accepted so far this year. :thumbsup:
Thanks.


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