# Top Feeder Syrup Warmer



## Ski (Jan 18, 2007)

I guess there would be a small window where a syrup warmer may help the bees take the syrup better. 
Not sure it would be worth while considering that the bees cluster when the temp reaches 47 degrees. 

You mentioned that two hives are taking a lot of warm syrup. How much would they be taking if it was not warmed?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

My guess is that they like it warm but would take it anyway. My wife tends to mix 2:1 with hot water the day of the feeding, so it is still a little warm when it goes in. They frequently drain the feeder in a day. But the hive that takes it slower we may not feed if they still have plenty, so as a consequence, they get warm syrup less often.

The hope is that this extends our feeding window by a week or two around this time of the year, especially for a weak hive. But in this case my best guess is that syrup temperature is not the real problem. 

What the heck, Michael Bush mentioned warm syrup and I just had to try this. One more gadget for the shelf to try when problems arise, for a cost of about $15.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Phoebee - I think you could make a false bottom in a feeder filled with water so the heater is immersed all the time and would keep the syrup warm. But I was using the glass tube submersable heaters and they kept stuff on an unheated porch at a nice an cozy 74 degrees when temps were below 30 on the porch. 

I have often wondered about it especially for our country. Lots of days in low 50s and they are eating up stores like crazy. It is warm enough for them to take syrup during the day but those nightly dips in temperature bring syrup below 50 and it takes forever to warm up. I have added a cup or so of hot syrup (90+) to the hive and often it is gone the next day. Increases hive inside temperature and they suck it down. 

The bottom heater set on a aluminum plate might be something that would be useful for a few folks. Good idea. Wish i had GFI sockets near the apiary.


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

I put inverted feeder jars over crown board (inner cover) holes. Both the crown board and feeder jars have 3" of polystyrene insulation over them. The syrup goes on cold, and the bees warm it up themselves to the internal hive temperature. Even so, there's a limit to how long they will take it - that's determined not by the temperature of the syrup, but whether the bees judge the water from the syrup can be removed under ambient temperature conditions. Even when they've stopped taking warm syrup, they'll still tuck in to cold fondant.
LJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

In the case where outside temperatures were getting low, yet colony still in need of more stores, would it be beneficial to wrap the hive early so the bees could maintain a higher temperature under the feeder. 

Interesting thought about the moisture from drying down the syrup being a controlling factor in feeding slow down.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Phoebee said:


> In a recent thread about bees not taking 2:1 syrup, Michael Bush mentioned that he often warms the syrup, and bees will take it faster.


If you place the feeder cans on the top bars, on shims, and protected with a covered empty brood box, the bees warm the syrup all by themselves. No extra heat required. No aquarium heaters and no spaghetti of electric cords across your backyard. If you need heat for the bees to take their feed, maybe you're too late in your feeding, and maybe you shouldn't be feeding syrup at all. Feeding warm syrup on a cold day can stimulate the bees to fly. Not necessarily a good thing on a cold day.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

No better way to feed than inverted cans or buckets. No drowning concerns and even small hives will take feed in pretty cool weather. I wish it was feasible for me.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

In my experience if a hive does not take syrup there is a reason for it


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I much prefer the Palmer way after trying the extension cord way at one point last year. What a pain... and heating syrup and running cords is not the lazy beekeeping way... I took a gallon of 50 degree syrup last week, placed it on top of a three deep 5 frame nuc and placed empty super around it.

The syrup was gone when I checked 18 hours later. Big colonies take 2-3-4 gallons in similarly inconceivably fast amounts of time. In fact I wouldn't even be able to get a chance to warm it they take it so quick... and that's starting with cold syrup when I place it.

I know Phoebee's a tinker-er, though, so in that regard it's pretty neat. Not really practical for 10 or 20 or 100 or 2000 hives, though.
I'd be a bit worried about condensation around here right now with a heat source. Turn the syrup into a little hot tub for them.  It was about 35 degrees last night. Not sure how that would go with a heated moisture source.


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

crofter said:


> Interesting thought about the moisture from drying down the syrup being a controlling factor in feeding slow down.


Here's a pic I've just taken (9.30 p.m. - pitch black out there ...) supporting the idea (feeder shim etc removed):










This is a 5 over 5 Nuc which is still a bit light on stores and which has stopped taking syrup, but is scoffing any fondant left-overs I place on the crown board. Fondant of course needs no dehydration, and so can be stored more-or-less 'as is'.
When that's gone, I've got about 1/2 pint of fondant laced with pollen subs they can have - it'll save me putting it back in the freezer.

LJ


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Ian said:


> In my experience if a hive does not take syrup there is a reason for it


That's my conclusion too, I just have not figured out the reason yet. Would have been nice if warm syrup were a cure, but its not that easy.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Michael Palmer,

Its a little late in the season for me to try your feeder can system but I'm bound to next year. All of my hives but one have top feeders this year, and that one is a nuc with two one-quart mason jars, in an extra brood box, which provide all it can handle. I'm feeding them thru a cutout in an inside top cover, rather than shims.

Two questions. First, are these just new one gallon lined paint cans with some holes in the lid? 

Second, how long can you leave these in place before they start building comb in the extra brood box?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Phoebee said:


> Two questions. First, are these just new one gallon lined paint cans with some holes in the lid?
> 
> Second, how long can you leave these in place before they start building comb in the extra brood box?


Yes, epoxy lined cans. 

Well, you can leave them on for quite awhile as there is no flow on and the bees won't build comb.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Phoebee said:


> That's my conclusion too, I just have not figured out the reason yet. Would have been nice if warm syrup were a cure, but its not that easy.


Ya, been there . Sometimes the easiest explanation is the last one we want to acknowledge. 
Maybe the just have enough feed?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Ian said:


> Ya, been there . Sometimes the easiest explanation is the last one we want to acknowledge.
> Maybe the just have enough feed?


Oh, I concede the very high probability that the beekeeper is at fault, but that still does not tell the beekeeper how he screwed up. If I knew the answer I wouldn't have made the mistake. 

The hive started out as a mutt bee nuc given to me early in the year. Never took off, and quickly developed a high mite load a rash of bad symptoms. I treated them, but by that time the mite population itself had crashed, no doubt due to the bees being in a terminal spiral. I treated them with formic acid, but the treatment caused little mite drop. I requeened with a purchased VSH queen, and also donated some brood and young bees from another hive that was kicking butt, since it was pretty clear the original bees were pretty old to be raising babies. I treated a second time with MAQS, again with very little mite drop. The new queen laid for a while, but apparently stopped in our recent stretch of cold, rainy weather. She's alive and looks OK but there was almost no brood when I was finally able to inspect last weekend. Lingering illness from the earlier mite problem? Queen no good? Queen harmed by MAQS? Undetected Nosema cerenae infection? 

Until last week they were putting on weight, slowly but heading in the right direction. They should still have space available.

I'll give them fresh syrup and hope for a miracle, but I'm expecting I'll need one of the backup nucs we made come springtime. I won't combine them with another hive ... the others are fine as is and I don't want these bees to get a healthy hive sick.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

What are your mite counts? 
What's your hive weight?

Sounds like you know the verdict. Why put so much energy in warming syrup in hopes they will take it? Grandpa always said there is little point kicking a dead horse

Shut the door and give it a chance might be your best bet


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Ian said:


> What are your mite counts?
> What's your hive weight?
> 
> Sounds like you know the verdict. Why put so much energy in warming syrup in hopes they will take it? Grandpa always said there is little point kicking a dead horse
> ...


I'd have to get my wife's notes, but offhand, this one deep, one medium hive is presently a paltry 80 pounds or so, with the brood in the medium on the bottom, stores in the deep on top. Too light for a proper hive, but honestly they're at about nuc strength and might get by on that if they were otherwise healthy. Mite counts at this stage are essentially zero.

Why so much effort? What, you think this was a lot of effort? This was something I tried because it was easy, when the weather was cold and rainy (prohibiting inspection) and I thought maybe, just maybe, it was as simple as cold syrup. And, in fact, there probably will be times when the problem IS cold syrup and it will help a little.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I live in the cold. Bees take cold syrup like warm syrup. It's all about breaking clusters to get at it . 

Don't mean to razz ya, just some constructive feedback 

I get nucs through up here on 50 lbs


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

The window in which I think this heater might help is cold nights followed by so-so days. The syrup may stay cold for hours after the bees get moving. We'll have several of those nights this weekend.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>The syrup may stay cold for hours after the bees get moving. We'll have several of those nights this weekend<<

>>It's all about breaking clusters to get at it . 
<<


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Phoebee said:


> We'll have several of those nights this weekend.


First... Several nights in a weekend. I am living in the wrong state. 

Second... I'd love to see if they take it better from paint can on the top bars. They take it so quickly... You can get the cans at a big box store like Lowes or Home Depot. Give it a shot this weekend? For science!


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

has any one tried wrapping the feeder jar in bubble wrap?
We are in the cool night, 70's daytime temp season for the next month (or less).
sun will shine through the bubble wrap, but heat will be prevented from radiating away so fast ... maybe.
I used the "big bubble type", with the smooth side out. I will put these on the hives tomorrow, but as others have noted, bees are still emptying the feeders very quickly.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Yes, epoxy lined cans.
> 
> Well, you can leave them on for quite awhile as there is no flow on and the bees won't build comb.


My question here is, what's the difference between 5 gallons of syrup and a good nectar flow? Realizing that most people would use weaker syrup to encourage building comb in the spring, and acknowledging that three hives I've tried to encourage to draw comb since August are not cooperating, I have one nuc that has gotten with the program and has been happily drawing comb for the last few weeks, and has started storing syrup in it. The rest are just burr-combing things together in a vain attempt to keep the beekeepers out.

I'm betting you'll have a very good answer to my question, with the difference in experience level quite plain, but none of my bees have been at it nearly as long as you have, and they clearly have a difference of opinion on the matter.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Phoebee said:


> My question here is, what's the difference between 5 gallons of syrup and a good nectar flow?


Honestly, I don't know why they don't build comb in the empty hive body. If I have to feed a colony 5 gallons of syrup, they must have a lot of empty comb space. Maybe that's the answer. They fill the combs they have before needing to build any extra comb.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Honestly, I don't know why they don't build comb in the empty hive body. If I have to feed a colony 5 gallons of syrup, they must have a lot of empty comb space. Maybe that's the answer. They fill the combs they have before needing to build any extra comb.


Well, now, there you have my real problem. Not enough comb on hand for the nucs. In no small part because we pretty much had no flow this spring, so early comb-building was a dud. We've been playing make-up since July.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Phoebee, any report on the syrup warmer/bee hot tub?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> Phoebee, any report on the syrup warmer/bee hot tub?


Just that I went up the following weekend with the intent of changing out the old syrup in case it had spoiled. The bees had polished it off, apparently cold. I'd about written them off, but they are in good spirits, defending the entrance against the occasional ill-advised yellowjacket and otherwise acting as if they have a will to live.

I gave them warm fresh syrup, and will see what they have done with it when I get up there tomorrow. All the hives have now slowed consumption somewhat.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Another followup ... they polished off another 3 quarts of syrup over the week, with no help needed from the syrup warmer. I'm still hoping against hope that the broodless state seen in mid-October was just the bees doing their December thing early in response to a cold spell. Hive weight is holding so I doubt their top feeder is being robbed.

But slapping the hive, which causes a "hiss" on all the others, produces no audible response from this one. Not sure I want to do an inspection for fear of what I'd find.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Update

It has been 9 days since the last visit to the apiary. Conditions were cool but not enough to shut the hives down totally when we got up there Tuesday. None of the hives had used all their syrup, but all had used at least some. There was sufficient syrup in Hive Z to try the syrup heater again. I left it in Tuesday evening to Thursday about noon. By that time the temperatures had come up nicely to about 60F with sunshine. The bees were using the feeder with enthusiasm. Warming probably helped but with the conditions today they likely would have used it at least some. The bees had used enough syrup to uncover the top plate of the heater. 

All three full-sized hives were having afternoon orientation around 2:30 in the afternoon. Hive Z appeared to be the most active of the three, contrary to all expectations. I worried about robbing but they have maintained their weight. I did not do a brood inspection as I considered the temperature too low, and in any case, this time of the year what changes would be helpful. But from all outward appearances, including dropped cappings under what should be the broodnest, the bees know what they're doing and I need to watch and learn.


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