# Observations of a pre-newbie beek...



## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

Whoa... you're coming on strong here.

First of all let me say that not all of what you say is true. Most beeks with Langs 1) rotate their old comb out to keep things fresh and healthy (especially if they're using chemicals with a residue), 2) as a majority most hobbyist are going organic, giving more control back to their bees, and building good, local, strong stock. 3) We don't want our bees to die, and we don't have the resources to filter out bad genetics. You start with one or two hives, and they'll be dead from vorroa if you leave them alone. To get the surviver colonies, you need hundreds of hives that will eventually produce the best stock.

You brought up some good points, and I agree with you that in some ways beeks in the past and present have abused their colonies, but from a hobbyist point of view, I find it more economical to buy powdered sugar to dust away the mites with, that spending money on packages or time on swarms. My organic efforts at this time has lead me to let my bees raise their own local queens, and give most of the hive management back over to the bees instead of trying to do it myself, they know best. I also do not look in the hives all that much. I keep inspections down to a bare minimum. I'd like to go all natural, but through a steady economical process without loosing all my bees and money.

Just my point of view. I think when you get bees, you'll see where we're coming from a little better, and then you'll also start developing your own techniques and so forth.

-Nathanael


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## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

Beaches Bee Haven - 

I really appreciate your reply and I surely understand that I don't have practical experience, fully expecting someone like yourself to set me straight on a few items. Well said and I'll take it to heart. 

But go over to the main boards and read about folks that seem to be constantly intervening with their hives. Here is a prime example - check this link, read down to the first response by ROSS - on 1-13-08 in COLD COLD COLD Texas, he opened all his hives - CHRIST!!! http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215468


I may change my mind once I get hives, but as for now, it seems like the desire to do good is doing harm. We are not smarter than the bee's, but most folks seem to think they are. They destroy drone, when from what I've read, they are desperately needed to provide genetic diversity and to warm the hive. They aren't the useless dolts many beeks seem to think they are. And the hive knows when to cull their numbers, the girls don't need our help.

As a pre-novice hobbyist, I known I am probably naive in many ways. But I really don't want a hive that needs my help to defeat it's natural enemies (varroa for example). I want hives that can manage on their own as long as I provide the home and am judicious in the honey that I take.

Does that make sense? I'm totally open to criticism - didnt' mean to come on strong, just wanted to get my thoughts out there as plain as can be.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Scut Farkas said:


> Beaches Bee Haven -
> 
> As a pre-novice hobbyist, I known I am probably naive in many ways. But I really don't want a hive that needs my help to defeat it's natural enemies (varroa for example). I want hives that can manage on their own as long as I provide the home and am judicious in the honey that I take.
> 
> Does that make sense? I'm totally open to criticism - didnt' mean to come on strong, just wanted to get my thoughts out there as plain as can be.


Makes perfect sense to me - and I agree with what you said about drones.

I think the tide is turning: more and more beekeepers are beginning to see that the old ways are taking them down a dead end. Even more encouraging, I get a lot of mail from people who are just thinking of taking up beekeeping and who are naturally gravitating towards natural, sustainable methods.

You probably know already, but there is an Abbé Warré section on the forum on my site.


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

*heres my take on the idea*

I bee a langer with 50+ hives. I dont agree with the dont feed. There are times when feeding is necessary or the bees will die. We had a late freeze last spring the bees where well into both drawing comb and raising brood when it happened. I could have left them alone and not intervined has you suggest. Or I can feed. I didnt lose a hive due to starvation. but had I not fed I would have lost over 40 hives simply because there was nothing for them to forage on. I agree with a lot of what you say. There is a time to help the bees and a time to let them be. It is a good beekeep that knows the difference. One other thing I have found out. The bees dont read the same books we do. While reading is a good idea and well recommended way to gain knowlege and understanding of bees. You will soon find out once you get your first hive the bees will at some point in time run south when the book said they would run north. Then you will understand why there is a lot of different opinions on how to keep bees You should have Barry move this one to the bee forum It would get more replies. This is good debate material


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## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

Scut Farkas said:


> But go over to the main boards and read about folks that seem to be constantly intervening with their hives. Here is a prime example - check this link, read down to the first response by ROSS - on 1-13-08 in COLD COLD COLD Texas, he opened all his hives - CHRIST!!! http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215468


I don't recall exactly what the weather was like on or abouts that precise day, but we have had unusually warm weather (up until yesterday)...highs in the 60's and even 70's. For the past few weeks the bees have had plenty of opportunities to buzz around all on their own here. And Greenville is close enough to me (40 miles or so) to say we get exactly the same weather.

I'm stuck in the city too, on a VERY small lot TOTALLY shaded by trees. But I'm also creative, and have acres and acres of land at my disposal, right within arm's reach. Best part is I don't have to mow it or pay taxes on it.

To be honest this 'debate' sounds more like one your still trying to fully work out in your own mind. As a 'debate' I don't think your going to get many converts with this approach. Experience and rationale are more often than not at odds with each other.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1-13-08 in COLD COLD COLD Texas, he opened all his hives

The AVERAGE low in Greenville TX in January is 31 F. The AVERAGE high is 52 F. The RECORD high in January is 90 F.

Texas is seldom cold and I doubt he picked a cold day to open them.

I opened all of mine a couple of weeks ago when it hit 60 F after a long cold spell. Luckily I did, as four of them needed feeding or they would have starved.

In general, I agree with you that bees can take care of themselves most of the time. But not feeding them in a long dearth or feeding the ones that are light going into winter will not help them or you. There's nothing blooming and won't be for some time right now. It's not like they are starving because they were lazy. We had a dearth from about late summer until now.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

You don't need land to keep bees!


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

I think the bottom line is that every beek develops their own philosophy and management method.

I agree with BuckBee, more and more beeks are favoring a natural (no-chemical) approach. That's exactly what I'm striving for in my apiary. We're also seeing that local stock is usually resistant to local pests, but the spread of foreign pests such as vorroa and SHB have thrown a stick in the spokes, messing things up. It takes time for the bees to grow a resistance to a new pest. That's why many beeks are trying to restrict the amount of foreign bees entering the U.S.

As the general pubic becomes more aware of the bee's plight, I think new and better management techniques will be developed.

-Nathanael


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

This is good discussion. I think sometimes outsiders can see things we beeks are prone to be blind to...


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## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

dcross said:


> You don't need land to keep bees!


I can't do it from my temporary housing - an apartment complex in Atlanta!


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## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

It's not just the cold - there is also "hive scent" that is lost. I can't say I fully understand it, but those little buggers use scent in a much more complex way than we currently understand. I'm still reading about that in a Abbe Warre paper. I imagine opening the hive from the top does a lot of bad things beyond chilling the bees. 

Here is a cut and paste from a web site about hive scent - link is below the text...

A very important feature of Warré's method is that the hive is opened in the strict sense only once a year, namely at harvest. In spring the addition of boxes underneath does not necessitate a hive opening in the sense that the heat is let out. The importance of the retention of nest scent and heat (_Nestduftwärmebindung_) for bee health and productivity was discussed by Johann Thür in his book _Beekeeping: natural, simple and ecological_ (1946) which also discusses Abbé Christ's (1739-1813) hive that is almost identical in concept to Warré's. 

LINKY>>> http://www.biobees.com/warre/



Michael Bush said:


> >1-13-08 in COLD COLD COLD Texas, he opened all his hives
> 
> The AVERAGE low in Greenville TX in January is 31 F. The AVERAGE high is 52 F. The RECORD high in January is 90 F.
> 
> ...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I can't do it from my temporary housing - an apartment complex in Atlanta!

Most beekeepers have most of their bees not on their land at all. You don't have to even have a yard of your own to keep bees, you just have to find somewhere to put them. Ideally, find two different people who will let you put bees on their place in case one of them changes their mind.

>there is also "hive scent" that is lost

A little lost scent for enough food... I'd take that trade off.


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

Scut Farkas said:


> I can't do it from my temporary housing - an apartment complex in Atlanta!


You could design a small box hive made to look like a window air conditioning unit!


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## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary said:


> You could design a small box hive made to look like a window air conditioning unit!


Funny - and creative thought.


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## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> >I can't do it from my temporary housing - an apartment complex in Atlanta!
> 
> Most beekeepers have most of their bees not on their land at all. You don't have to even have a yard of your own to keep bees, you just have to find somewhere to put them. Ideally, find two different people who will let you put bees on their place in case one of them changes their mind.
> 
> ...


Why not design a hive where you can feed the bee's without opening the hive? Does it have to be either/or? Don't they make little feeders you can put in the entry - or is that too far from the cluster.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

when I started keeping bees, someone on here made a point that stuck with me
If you're trying to make money (which we all are even if it's just to offset the cost of equipment) then it makes sense to take all the honey you can get and replace it with sugar syrup
honey is about $5/lb if you retail it
syrup is something like $0.35/lb
tidy profit margin
even if it's just a hobby (it is for me) most folks would still like to break even
heck, I don't even sell much, but guess what everyone gets for Christmas?
as for feeding without opening the hives I was pretty happy with my open bucket feeding last summer
we had a terrible drought, the bees would be dead without it

Dave


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

Scut Farkas said:


> Why not design a hive where you can feed the bee's without opening the hive? Does it have to be either/or? Don't they make little feeders you can put in the entry - or is that too far from the cluster.


I use a polystyrene top feeder. When I fill it up I don't come in contact with the bees at all. I also use all polystyrene supers, they insulate better and have better ventilation. http://betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=409 http://betterbee.com/departments2.asp?dept=118&bot=83


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

entrance feeder

http://www.beeequipment.com/products.asp?pcode=686

thought to encourage robbing, scent of syrup right by the entrance

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why not design a hive where you can feed the bee's without opening the hive? Does it have to be either/or? Don't they make little feeders you can put in the entry - or is that too far from the cluster.

They won't take syrup in the winter. I just topped them off with dry sugar which they are going through quickly.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Scut Farkas said:


> I can't do it from my temporary housing - an apartment complex in Atlanta!


I did it from temporary housing! And I'm lazy as heck


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

Scut Farkas said:


> I can't do it from my temporary housing - an apartment complex in Atlanta!


Make yourself one big OB hive


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## Sprocket58 (May 5, 2007)

Hey I live in the city and they do fine here. I also have several others at some friends who do own a fair amount of land. I think to be a successfull beekeeper you need to always be willing to learn and think....think....THINK.

As a teacher and a beekeeper I find this forum refreshing because I have more critical thinkers in here than I have ever met in a conventional classroom. That's not to dis my students it is as it is.

I have also found in many of you all...Master teachers, and in myself an eager learner. If you listen to the guys in here they will offer up many wonderful opinions and ways to be a successful beekeeper.

As Michael Bush once said to me in one of my beekeeping 101 posts; "If you're not making mistakes, you're not learning." 

So do think out of the box...you can have a hive, you just have to figure out the how.

My hats off to all of you master teachers that are so patient with all of us newbies.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

I guess beeks who use screened bottom boards and ventilated hive covers 
are doing their bees a great injustice in regards to the bees losing 
pheromones. 

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/products.asp?pcode=277
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/products.asp?pcode=373
https://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=715

I'd like to know how these bees in the following picture can even manage to 
build any comb without having a box around them to contain their 
pheromones.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u76/ccohenour1/wildbees3.jpg

What hurts the bees the most when you open the colony is when you smoke 
them. They will break open cell cappings and gorge themselves on honey in 
case they have to leave the hive due to fire. The smoke plays on their natural
instincts as bees have had to deal with fire and smoke long before man. After
they gorge themselves on honey in preparation to leave the colony to find a 
new home they become lazy and sluggish and less inclined to sting. It's hard 
to do but you should smoke the entrance and wait awhile before opening the 
hive. If you pop the top off and then start smoking the top bars you're not 
getting the effect you would otherwise. The smoking disturbs the normal 
colony function and sedates them quite a bit when done properly. After you 
close the hive back up they have to ventilate the hive to get it "right" again, 
they have to repair all the cells they tore open, and regurgitate the honey 
they were preparing to flee with. I do my best to never use smoke but I do 
find it necessary sometimes.

I've never noticed any ill effects from simply popping off the inner lid for a 
quick look to see if I need to add a super during a honey flow or give some 
feed in the winter. There are different ways to feed at different times of year.
A Boardman feeder won't be of much use to a winter cluster but an inverted 
paint can placed on the top bars directly over the cluster with some thick 
syrup in it could be invaluable. A winter cluster can be in direct contact with 
the syrup when feeding in this manner. I'd rather pay a few dollars for some 
sugar to make syrup with to feed the bees if they need it than to pay up to a
hundred for a nuc or package to replace it with in the spring.

The reason most people use Langs is that they are most commonly used by 
other beeks. Also EVERY large supplier of beekeeping equipment in the US sells
hives based on Langstroth's design. I doubt that you will easily find a nuc to 
put into a Warre hive should you decide to use that style.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

WVbeekeeper said:


> I guess beeks who use screened bottom boards and ventilated hive covers are doing their bees a great injustice in regards to the bees losing
> pheromones.


IMO - screened bottoms, probably not, but ventilated covers, probably yes. Screened bottoms will not cause a draft (or draught) unless air can escape from the top, which, IMO is always a bad idea as it militates against the bees being able to maintain their constant hive temperature.



> I'd like to know how these bees in the following picture can even manage to
> build any comb without having a box around them to contain their
> pheromones.
> http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u76/ccohenour1/wildbees3.jpg


What I see is a very compact shape which, if the air is reasonably still and the ambient temperature reasonably high, will retain enough of its 'atmosphere' until the bees decide to move on.

I agree that smoke is often used badly. I don't use it at all anymore, as I believe it has detrimental effects even when used 'properly'.



> I've never noticed any ill effects from simply popping off the inner lid for a
> quick look to see if I need to add a super during a honey flow or give some
> feed in the winter.


You wouldn't notice because you don't see the bees after you have closed the hive frantically trying to get it back up to temperature. That will use up energy=stores. Do it too often and you will have starving, exhausted bees.



> A Boardman feeder won't be of much use to a winter cluster but an inverted
> paint can placed on the top bars directly over the cluster with some thick
> syrup in it could be invaluable. A winter cluster can be in direct contact with
> the syrup when feeding in this manner.


If you have to do that, you are admitting that you didn't feed them down properly in the fall. Feeding syrup in winter is likely to stimulate the queen to start laying prematurely, thinking that nectar is coming in. Because this is not balanced by an inflow of pollen, there will likely not be the correct amounts of each to properly feed young and the whole harmony of the hive is in danger of being thrown out of kilter. Better to feed fondant in winter - if you have to feed anything - as this does not stimulate the queen to lay.


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## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

Good info Buckbee- thanks for sharing. 

I think WV Beekeeper unintentionally made the original point (that we interfere too much and don't truly know how we disrupt our bees by doing so), and you were able to point out how the "standard practices" he uses can be tremendously detrimental to the long term health of the hive. 

That we can't see immediate damage to a hive from our activity, doesn't mean we've not caused any.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

buckbee said:


> IMO - screened bottoms, probably not, but ventilated covers, probably yes. Screened bottoms will not cause a draft (or draught) unless air can escape from the top, which, IMO is always a bad idea as it militates against the bees being able to maintain their constant hive temperature.


I've seen bees inside of trees which have an entrance over and under the colony. They chose it. What happened to everyone thinking the bees know best? Why are there holes for ventilation on inner lids? Why do people prop the outer cover up on the front corners? A little draft is OK as it helps to prevent condensation in the winter and helps to cure nectar into honey in the spring, summer, and fall.



buckbee said:


> What I see is a very compact shape which, if the air is reasonably still and the ambient temperature reasonably high, will retain enough of its 'atmosphere' until the bees decide to move on.


I think it's unlikely that they'll move on. I doubt if the air is very still and not windy three stories up on an office building in the middle of a city. Down near the ground isn't too bad but you know that it gets a little windier as you move away from the ground.



buckbee said:


> If you have to do that, you are admitting that you didn't feed them down properly in the fall. Feeding syrup in winter is likely to stimulate the queen to start laying prematurely, thinking that nectar is coming in.


Yeah, I made some late nucs in July that didn't build up good. They didn't draw enough comb in time to feed them syrup for winter stores. I had supers of honey for most of my colonies but gave two of them only a few frames of honey and they needed fed. http://wvbeekeeper.blogspot.com/2008/01/are-your-bees-alive-do-you-need-to-feed.html


buckbee said:


> Because this is not balanced by an inflow of pollen, there will likely not be the correct amounts of each to properly feed young and the whole harmony of the hive is in danger of being thrown out of kilter.


If you look at the link you will see that I did not feed syrup. If you read the post you will see that I do plan on stimulative feeding with syrup pretty soon and will be using some pollen patties. And yes, it is winter. It will be for almost two more months. If you want to build your bees up for the spring you have to stimulate them in the winter.



buckbee said:


> You wouldn't notice because you don't see the bees after you have closed the hive frantically trying to get it back up to temperature. That will use up energy=stores. Do it too often and you will have starving, exhausted bees.


Opening a colony once a month when the they are flying will not cause them to starve. Popping the lid off a colony once a month when they are not flying will not cause the to starve either. I don't think some of you are giving the bee much credit for being as hardy as it is. 



Scut Farkas said:


> I think WV Beekeeper unintentionally made the original point (that we interfere too much and don't truly know how we disrupt our bees by doing so), and you were able to point out how the "standard practices" he uses can be tremendously detrimental to the long term health of the hive. That we can't see immediate damage to a hive from our activity, doesn't mean we've not caused any.


I think you need to get some bees and actually keep them and get some real world experience instead of arguing from the point of view of a text book. I'm sure when you do get some bees that you will use smoke, you will feed if you have to, and you will open them up in the winter to make sure they are ok. I doubt if you'll sit back and watch your investment dwindle away to nothing and only open the hive once a year. I'm sure making a nuc, a package, or getting a swarm out of a tree is a little stressful on the bees. So how are you going to get yours?


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

WVbeekeeper said:


> I've seen bees inside of trees which have an entrance over and under the colony. They chose it. What happened to everyone thinking the bees know best?


Dude, if it works for your bees, I'm happy for you.




> I think it's unlikely that they'll move on. I doubt if the air is very still and not windy three stories up on an office building in the middle of a city. Down near the ground isn't too bad but you know that it gets a little windier as you move away from the ground.


It will be interesting to see how long they stay there, for sure.




> If you want to build your bees up for the spring you have to stimulate them in the winter.


Sure. And once you start feeding them, you have to keep it up, because now the queen is laying and there are more mouths to feed. And now you need ventilation, because you just put a load of water into the hive and you will get condensation... and the bees will get stressed and then nosema becomes an issue, because we all know that damp bees plus stress is practically a recipe for nosema... and so the old cycle goes on: stressed bees, disease, CCD...


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> It will be interesting to see how long they stay there, for sure. -buckbee


I agree with the thought in this particular instance (how long exposed colonies will survive), but wonder if the same concept shouldn't be applied to _all_ bees? Nothing holds my bees in Langstroth hives. If Langstroth hives aren't acceptable homes, why are the bees still there, and how do they continue to survive?


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

*buckbee's little rant*

It seems to me that the bees are just about getting by *despite* modern (i.e. 19th century) beekeeping methods, that were invented for the benefit of beekeepers, not bees. Movable frames, wax foundation, hives that spill the carefully-composed scent-and-heat atmosphere as soon as they are opened - *none* of these benefit the bees - yet almost all beekeepers continue to use them.

I know I am preaching to the converted in the TBH forum, but I will continue to bang on about this wherever I can until the beekeeping associations pay attention and start to promote bee-friendly methods and equipment.

I hope some of you will do the same.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> It seems to me that the bees are just about getting by *despite* modern (i.e. 19th century) beekeeping methods, . . . -buckbee


So why don't the bees leave the Langstroth hives? Nothing but "choice," if you will, is holding my bees in their Langstroth hives. I believe the same is true for most bees in Langstroth hives.



> Movable frames, . . . -buckbee


While I agree that this is strictly for the benefit of the beekeepers, I fail to see how using TBHs overcomes this issue. Explain, please?



> . . .wax foundation, . . . -buckbee


While I can understand how _plastic_ foundation might be quite a change for the bees, I fail to understand how the use of wax foundation is so harmful. You do realize that the honeycomb that bees naturally produce is composed of the same wax, right?



> . . .hives that spill the carefully-composed scent-and-heat atmosphere as soon as they are opened. . . -buckbee


Again, I fail to see how the use of TBHs overcomes this issue. When I open a Langstroth hive, I lift the cover off. From the plans of TBHs I've seen (I'll confess that I've seen few in person and have manipulated none), I believe the tops lift off to open the hives, also. Which means the same heat/scent loss as in a Langstroth hive.

Wouldn't keeping bees in gums be "more natural" (although I suspect far more stressful to the bees when you get to harvesting honey)? Or perhaps we should simply stop managing honey bees entirely?


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Kieck said:


> So why don't the bees leave the Langstroth hives? Nothing but "choice," if you will, is holding my bees in their Langstroth hives. I believe the same is true for most bees in Langstroth hives.


Except the ones the bees are leaving... heard of CCD?



> While I agree that this [movable frames] is strictly for the benefit of the beekeepers, I fail to see how using TBHs overcomes this issue. Explain, please?


Duh - TBH's don't use frames.



> While I can understand how _plastic_ foundation might be quite a change for the bees, I fail to understand how the use of wax foundation is so harmful. You do realize that the honeycomb that bees naturally produce is composed of the same wax, right?


Bees build natural comb quite differently to the pattern imposed on them by foundation. They build a variety of cell sizes and more drone cells - any TBH beek will know this. They do this for reasons of their own: we may never know what the reasons are, but we can be pretty sure they are important to the bees.



> Again, I fail to see how the use of TBHs overcomes this [letting the heat and scent escape] issue. When I open a Langstroth hive, I lift the cover off. From the plans of TBHs I've seen (I'll confess that I've seen few in person and have manipulated none), I believe the tops lift off to open the hives, also. Which means the same heat/scent loss as in a Langstroth hive.


Wrong. When you take the lid off a TBH - at least, the ones I use - you see no bees and there is no escape of anything. When you move a follower, there is some change of air, but nothing like the sudden outflow you get with a Lang. The TBH bees hardly notice what is going on - most times only a few bees come out to see who is there: never have I had a big cloud of angry bees around me like I have with commercial hives.



> Wouldn't keeping bees in gums be "more natural" (although I suspect far more stressful to the bees when you get to harvesting honey)?


Actually, you should take a look at the Abbé Warré vertical TBH if you want the closest thing to a tree - see http://warre.biobees.com - there's a great free PDF there you can read and I guarantee you will learn something.



> Or perhaps we should simply stop managing honey bees entirely?


You may be right - I'm sure the bees would thank us for it!


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> Except the ones the bees are leaving... heard of CCD? -buckbee


"Heard of it," yes. Seen any examples of it firsthand? No.

While I don't have the amount of beekeeping experience that many on BeeSource do, I've only had one hive abscond. And that, I believe, was caused by several shrews that moved into that one particular hive.



> Duh - TBH's don't use frames. -buckbee


In the state of South Dakota, all managed colonies must be on "moveable frame" equipment. The "frames" don't have to have four "sides." A "top bar" with honeycomb built on it constitutes a "moveable frame." As I understand it, the section of honeycomb can be pulled from the hive by lifting the top bar out, much the same as a Langstroth frame can be pulled from a hive. Right?



> Bees build natural comb quite differently to the pattern imposed on them by foundation. They build a variety of cell sizes and more drone cells - any TBH beek will know this. They do this for reasons of their own: we may never know what the reasons are, but we can be pretty sure they are important to the bees. -buckbee


What prevents them from reworking wax foundation to suit their needs? I've read repeatedly from small cell proponents that in the "early stages of regression," bees with rework small-cell foundation to produce larger cell sizes. What stops them from producing whatever they want anyway?

And, have you measured cells (individually, not averaged) started from wax foundation in Langstroth hives? From the measurements I've taken, the cells vary considerably.



> Wrong. When you take the lid off a TBH - at least, the ones I use - you see no bees and there is no escape of anything. -buckbee


The argument, I thought, was that heat (and pheromones, presumably) rise, so when the cover is lifted off a Langstroth hive, any retained heat escapes (along with the "hive scent"?). What prevents the same from happening with a TBH? Is the "cover" of your TBH really on the bottom or a side?



> Actually, you should take a look at the Abbé Warré vertical TBH if you want the closest thing to a tree. . . -buckbee


The Warré hive looks remarkably similar, overall, to the Langstroth hive, in my opinion. I've thought that for quite a while. Say that you start a bunch of bees in a Lang. When the time comes to add a box, you don't open the hive, you simply lift the current box and place another box below it. And repeat. And only open the hive once a year. From a practical standpoint, then, how would such a system differ from using a Warré hive?



> You may be right - I'm sure the bees would thank us for it! -buckbee


You first!


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

*horizontal and vertical TBH*



Kieck said:


> In the state of South Dakota, all managed colonies must be on "moveable frame" equipment. The "frames" don't have to have four "sides." A "top bar" with honeycomb built on it constitutes a "moveable frame." As I understand it, the section of honeycomb can be pulled from the hive by lifting the top bar out, much the same as a Langstroth frame can be pulled from a hive. Right?


Kinda, but not entirely. Are you sure your local regs. require movable *frames* or just removable comb? I don't know - we don't have such specific regs. here in the UK, but my guess is that they just require that the combs can somehow be removed for inspection. In which case, as you say, TBHs are OK. But I think you were asking - what is the advantage of movable comb on a TBH over movable frames? Mainly, IMO, the fact that the bees can build comb exactly as they require and not to our template.

For come reason, I don't seem to be able to embed images on this forum, but if you have a look at http://www.biobees.com/images/frame_comb_wild.jpg you can see what happens when a short (super) frame is left in a full-depth hive. The bees take advantage by making drone comb - which they have all but been prevented from doing by the use of worker-size foundation in the frame. You can see that they have also done their best to build drone comb within the frame and you can see where they have built a range of cell sizes, including some worker comb, in the 'free' comb below the frame.

Compare that with this image http://www.biobees.com/images/free_comb01.jpg which shows a comb built on a top bar with no impediments: no frame, no foundation. See how beautifully organized it is? That is how comb should be, but can never be within a frame.

I should also mention that, while it is as easy (with practice) to move/remove comb on a top bar as it is to move/remove frames in a Lang, part of the TBH modus operandi is that the brood chamber is disturbed as little as possible - preferably, not at all.



> And, have you measured cells (individually, not averaged) started from wax foundation in Langstroth hives? From the measurements I've taken, the cells vary considerably.


I have and there is some variation, but nothing like that found on freely-built comb.



> The argument, I thought, was that heat (and pheromones, presumably) rise, so when the cover is lifted off a Langstroth hive, any retained heat escapes (along with the "hive scent"?). What prevents the same from happening with a TBH? Is the "cover" of your TBH really on the bottom or a side?


OK, to explain that, I need to refer you to another photo: http://www.biobees.com/images/TBH032.jpg which shows one of my TBHs just completed, before the roof was added. You see that bunch of top bars in the centre, between the follower boards, which are marked with black dots? That is where the bees live. Their 3 entrance holes are visible at the front - one is closed with a cork. The top bars either side are spares. So this is what you see when you take off the roof - no bees! Bees are not exposed until you move one of the follower boards - and even then, you will mostly just see a slab of honeycomb with maybe a couple of bees working on it. Because the bees build comb pretty close to the sides, the atmosphere inside is barely disturbed by harvesting or casual peeping.



> The Warré hive looks remarkably similar, overall, to the Langstroth hive, in my opinion. I've thought that for quite a while. Say that you start a bunch of bees in a Lang. When the time comes to add a box, you don't open the hive, you simply lift the current box and place another box below it. And repeat. And only open the hive once a year. From a practical standpoint, then, how would such a system differ from using a Warré hive?


The big difference is that, in a Warré hive, the bees build free comb on top bars and the lid is never removed, except briefly to take off a 'super' (not really supers, as all sections are the same). The comb is likely to be attached all the way down (I suspect - at least, that's what happened when I tried a straight-sided box about 12" wide, some 7 years ago) so the thermodynamics and air movements will differ from those in a Lang, esp. in winter (because of thicker walls in the Warré).

There is loads more that I just don't have time to explain here - suggest take a good look at David Heaf's free downloads here http://warre.biobees.com


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> Kinda, but not entirely. Are you sure your local regs. require movable *frames* or just removable comb? I don't know - we don't have such specific regs. here in the UK, but my guess is that they just require that the combs can somehow be removed for inspection. -buckbee


Pretty certain. From South Dakota Codified Laws:



> Movable frames required in hives--Violation as misdemeanor. -South Dakota Codified Law 38-18-8.


However, nothing says that those frames must be bound by wood or plastic on all four sides. From talking with our state apiarist, top bars qualify as "frames." From a practical standpoint, it's just as you suggest: the combs must be moveable for inspection.



> But I think you were asking - what is the advantage of movable comb on a TBH over movable frames? Mainly, IMO, the fact that the bees can build comb exactly as they require and not to our template. -buckbee


Well, as I see it, you're still constraining the overall size and shape of the comb by keeping the bees in hives of fixed dimensions. What prevents bees in Langstroth hives from building just what they need? Any number of beekeepers (mainly hobbyists, I believe) are "going foundationless," which should result in much the same diversity of cell sizes. The only real difference is that many of those frames are wood-bound on four sides.



> That is how comb should be, but can never be within a frame. -buckbee


I've seen much comb in frames that is just as neat and orderly -- as "beautifully organized" -- within frames, both started from foundation and "foundationless." The example you show is a case of putting the wrong size frame into a box; I've seen examples of honey comb from cutouts and from TBHs that are just as "confused" as the example you show from a Langstroth hive.



> So this is what you see when you take off the roof - no bees! -buckbee


Many times, when I take the outer cover off a Langstroth hive, I see few to no bees as well. Once I take off the inner cover, then I see more bees. I see the bars of the TBH as serving both a function as "frames" and a function as "inner covers." When you truly open a TBH (i. e., lift out frames), I would predict the same influences seen as opening a Langstroth.



> . . .part of the TBH modus operandi is that the brood chamber is disturbed as little as possible - preferably, not at all. -buckbee


I believe you could "manage" (maybe "unmanage?") a Langstroth hive by the same principles. The problem, really, would be knowing when to add room. But you must face much the same issue with a TBH, I imagine.



> The big difference is that, in a Warré hive, the bees build free comb on top bars and the lid is never removed, except briefly to take off a 'super' (not really supers, as all sections are the same). -buckbee


Again, that seem more "management style" than "advantage of hive design" to me.



> The comb is likely to be attached all the way down (I suspect - at least, that's what happened when I tried a straight-sided box about 12" wide, some 7 years ago) . . . -buckbee


But that's a big _disadvantage_ of the design, to me, both from the standpoint of ease of manipulating the hive, and from the legal standpoint (requirement of moveable frames/combs).



> . . .so the thermodynamics and air movements will differ from those in a Lang, esp. in winter (because of thicker walls in the Warré). -buckbee


This, finally, seems like it _could_ offer some advantage over the Langstroth hives. Any evidence that overwintering survival is greater in Warré hives than in Langstroth?



> There is loads more that I just don't have time to explain here . . . -buckbee


Understood, but I appreciate you taking time to offer the explanations you have.


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