# Varroa discussion



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Move this to the treatment free thread. The rest of us know the answer.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The viruses are what causes the colony death, there is no treatments for them that I am aware of. Without the mites to vector the virus the disease problem is not great. The viruses can be transmitted from bee to bee but that is not common compared to transmitting from mite to bee.

Nutrition in colonies is often a problem, but that is a beekeeper problem. We must provide for the bees when forage is poor. Some beekeepers have the idea that it is best to allow them to exist only on natural forage.

Bee health is better where there is abundant natural forage plants, but other than not placing bees in poor areas, there is little beekeepers can do to improve forage. We can plant on property we own but we can do little else. I don't think property owners would like our trying to tell them what to plant, when to mow, what not to spray, or otherwise tell them how to use their property.

Many beekeepers contribute to unhealthy bees (IMO), but it is not by following tried and true beekeeping management practices.

I have 4 colonies of bees that are direct line supersedures from queens heading colonies not treated since 2005, I started with 12 and watched them dwindle down, not only in numbers but also in productivity. Of the 4 only 1 is worth having the other 3 just manage to exist.

Don't ask so many questions, I think slow and type slower, trying to answer takes up too much of my day!


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

I want more than a one sided discussion so please do not move. I realize that there is no treatment for the bee diseases but maybe that is what we need to focus on. A lot of the bee forage is gone due to farming practices, and I certainly do not blame the farmers, they have to make a living. More could be done though. States could plant along highways instead of mowing, ect.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

Fleas are what carried the bubonic plague bacteria. Rats carried the fleas. If the rats had been kept under control, the plague would not have been so devastating. But much of the world's population at the time believed cats were evil, so they were destroyed. In a few areas cats were allowed to thrive, so the rat populations were much smaller, and the result was that those areas saw little or no plague breakout.

My point is, if you want to control diseases that are vectored in by a certain pest, control the pest. It is much, much more efficient than trying to control the resulting diseases.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Many of the bee traits that seem to aid mite tolerance to some degree, are also associated with lower production and much more difficult handling. It seems very often that then working at breeding back the production and temperament brings back the commercially undesired traits. Some quite interesting compromises have been reached but the bees have a great inherent tendency to revert to the mean.

"Parasites dont want to kill their host". That is too broad a statement to be considered factual. In many cases that is exactly what does happen.

"More could be done though" The ship of state needs all hands bailing! Bees are a long way down on any priority list especially since they are far from an endangered species contrary to a lot of sappy media hype.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Just think of all the heavy duty meds that it would take to kill all of the viruses that mites carry. I don't think that is the direction that we want to go. It is easy enough to just kill the mites.


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Except we are not doing so well with mites. Plus is good to expose the bees to everything that we are? Why do we vaccinate people, pets, and other live stock. I am sure with all the researchers out there they could develop a vaccine that you fog the hive with. Again just a discussion to think about other possibilities. If it was possible to suppress the diseases that really killing the bees than would the mites really be the problem?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It would seem that treating the vectored diseases rather than the enabling mechanism (varro mite) Generally cures are best if they treat causes not symptoms.

The anti-vaxxers would be all over you for trying to implement vaccinating the bees for viruses  There is quite a vocal cohort that will also claim that by treating the viruses you will only make them into super viruses!

I dont know if the mites, minus viruses would be tolerable for my bees: I dont plan on finding out either! I dont find it hard to keep their numbers near zero and colony survival near 100%.


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Points well made. How do you treat? Sometimes we need a different perspective to solve the problem.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

PyroBee said:


> Points well made. How do you treat? Sometimes we need a different perspective to solve the problem.


Certainly,keep all options open: burn no bridges! Do as much reality checking as possible into proposed solutions and be wary of emotional grabs.

The last 3 seasons I have treated with Oxalic acid vapor and prior to that with Formic acid on meat blotter pads. Being isolated, I dont have a lot of mites drifting in from other hives. It is a lot easier to keep the mite numbers down than it is to deal with high numbers late in the season. Once your colonies are showing signs of virus problems it takes time to recover.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Hops Brewster said:


> Fleas are what carried the bubonic plague bacteria. Rats carried the fleas. If the rats had been kept under control, the plague would not have been so devastating. But much of the world's population at the time believed cats were evil, so they were destroyed. In a few areas cats were allowed to thrive, so the rat populations were much smaller, and the result was that those areas saw little or no plague breakout.
> 
> My point is, if you want to control diseases that are vectored in by a certain pest, control the pest. It is much, much more efficient than trying to control the resulting diseases.


At it's height, it was a pneumonic plague, transmitted just as modern cold viruses are: 
https://www.theweek.co.uk/amp/healt...eas-hook-humans-passed-black-death-each-other
It was overcome by better nutrition and natural selection.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

PyroBee said:


> Except we are not doing so well with mites. Plus is good to expose the bees to everything that we are? Why do we vaccinate people, pets, and other live stock. I am sure with all the researchers out there they could develop a vaccine that you fog the hive with. Again just a discussion to think about other possibilities. If it was possible to suppress the diseases that really killing the bees than would the mites really be the problem?


Mites are not a problem if you use OVA. Mites gone = viruses gone. I am by no means anti-pesticide or anti-vaccine, but the problem is easily solved for now.


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

How long can we sustain our bees with these treatments? Treatments just seem like a quick fix. I t just seems that there could be a better fix.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

PyroBee said:


> How long can we sustain our bees with these treatments? Treatments just seem like a quick fix. I t just seems that there could be a better fix.


Like what, developing vaccines to kill viruses as you said? That doesn't sound like a better idea than mechanically removing mites.

Also, what makes you think that we are not doing so well with mites?


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

That is just a thought, hence discussion. I think we are not doing well with mites since % of losses are still higher than before exposure to mites. Now I believe it is more than just mites. Poor forage being one. Bees do not have the diversity of pollen that they once had for many reasons. I found this video interesting. 

https://youtu.be/MefRdj5vR6Y


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I get tired of beekeepers blaming farmers for all our beekeeping problems. My apiary manages quite contently. I've adapted my management to perfectly suit my conditions but even with all these efforts varroa does not seem to care. It's a constant struggle to keep counts in check. When a two hive beekeeper stands back and starts philosophizing the state of the industry and starts suggesting coexistence, my attention fades. 

Yes the mite is problem number 1. Yes it's the viral infections which ultimately lead to most of the crashes. Yes there are efforts in looking at targeting the viral infections as well as the mite. Yes yes yes basic beekeeping and focus on colony health is vital. No, commercial beekeepers are not ignorant of any part of the issue.


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Ian said:


> I get tired of beekeepers blaming farmers for all our beekeeping problems. My apiary manages quite contently. I've adapted my management to perfectly suit my conditions but even with all these efforts varroa does not seem to care. It's a constant struggle to keep counts in check. When a two hive beekeeper stands back and starts philosophizing the state of the industry and starts suggesting coexistence, my attention fades.
> 
> Yes the mite is problem number 1. Yes it's the viral infections which ultimately lead to most of the crashes. Yes there are efforts in looking at targeting the viral infections as well as the mite. Yes yes yes basic beekeeping and focus on colony health is vital. No, commercial beekeepers are not ignorant of any part of the issue.


I stated above:
"I want more than a one sided discussion so please do not move. I realize that there is no treatment for the bee diseases but maybe that is what we need to focus on. A lot of the bee forage is gone due to farming practices, and I certainly do not blame the farmers, they have to make a living. More could be done though. States could plant along highways instead of mowing, ect."

I do not blame farmers. Have the farming practices changed? yes the "mom & pop" small home farms all but gone. Larger monoculture style farms are the new norm. I again do not blame the farmer, this is the way that they can efficiently make a living. However when there were more of the smaller farms growing everything there was certainly more forage, that cannot be denied. I am only stated that there can be some type of offset for such farming. Planting of beneficial flowers along the roadways and ditches. This not only helps pollinators but has been proven to save jurisdictions money on mowing. Do you not agree that forage benefits bee health? Yes I may not have as many hives as you, I am slowly building my apiary. I started with 3 and now I am at 15, with hopes to grow larger. I do not want to just jump into a 100 or more but want to slowly learn how to manage at the different levels. I am constantly trying to learn all I can. I simple was trying to create a dialogue/ discussion that maybe there is a better simpler way to go about this. The two things that I do not want to have to continue to do is buy bees and have to always treat my bees. This year I attempted grafting and feel good about it. Wouldn't we all hope that our bees do not always need treatment? Maybe they will always need to be treated. I just hope that they do not.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The varroa equation thrives on the healthy broody hive. The solution to the equation does relate to hive health, but the problem also relates to healthy broody hives. 
The moving target has to be tackled from targeting the mite itself. That is where we and the bees are finding the most success,
Farmers do not hit this equation


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

Vance G said:


> Move this to the treatment free thread. The rest of us know the answer.


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## beecavalier (Jan 30, 2014)

Ian said:


> I get tired of beekeepers blaming farmers for all our beekeeping problems. My apiary manages quite contently. I've adapted my management to perfectly suit my conditions but even with all these efforts varroa does not seem to care. It's a constant struggle to keep counts in check. When a two hive beekeeper stands back and starts philosophizing the state of the industry and starts suggesting coexistence, my attention fades.
> 
> Yes the mite is problem number 1. Yes it's the viral infections which ultimately lead to most of the crashes. Yes there are efforts in looking at targeting the viral infections as well as the mite. Yes yes yes basic beekeeping and focus on colony health is vital. No, commercial beekeepers are not ignorant of any part of the issue.


"I get tired of beekeepers blaming farmers"...Hope you're not losing too much sleep over it Ian...lots of challenges out there for you guys.

FWIW...In my area, ranchers are my friend...they provide a nectar source with their hay fields...without them I would have to rely on native flowers...which wouldn't even give me enough for the bees to winter on...I would be out of business. Legume forage seed growers are even held in higher esteem as they don't harvest crops in bloom.

Grain growers I have neutral to negative feelings about. I can't help but think that out of the theoretical 8000 acres a beehive can forage on...determined by the flight limitations of the honeybee...5000 or more acres may have the potential of pesticides applied to them. And I know from experience that residues from those pesticides may end up in my honey. This may complicate my ability to market my honey...and perhaps there are other issues like bee forage being limited.

I think that is a fair description of farming practices in this area. The significant beekeeping industry problem of varroa mite infestations can hardly be blamed on grain and ranching farming methods...although minds with fertile imaginations may surprise one.

Having said that, I wish there were more operations such as yours...where beef and grain farming are done side by side. For beekeepers and the general environment this could be the best case scenario. That's the kind of farm I was raised on.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

I for one see the problems associated with varroa to get even worse before it gets better. Remember when it was ok to have 8-10 percent mite count during the mid to late 90's Then as time progressed...that count got lower and lower? Now we're seeing counts as low as 4% being the injury threshold. I believe this to be the cause as the pathogens that are vectored by the mite become more and more wide spread...more prevalent...thus more virulent. That I believe is why so many are still having trouble keeping bees not only alive...but healthy. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me within the next five years that percentage count becomes even lower.

Honeybees are in the midst of another population bottleneck. I say keep the genome we have now...knock back the mites however you can and lets keep what is left of genome we have left as we move forward.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

"I simple was trying to create a dialogue/ discussion that maybe there is a better simpler way to go about this."

I felt that there was just a bit of pushing some simplistic solutions that others could not see, so you get a bit of pushback. Do some research into why the agricultural practices are as they are. Wishful thinking to return to a pastoral scene, just may not cut it! Many remedies are attractive on the surface but "Who shall bell the cat?" Crucial to the implementation is who shall pay the bills. 

"Wouldn't it be nice if we did not have to continue treating our bees" Yes. If you want maintenance free pets or livestock you will have to do some searching: It does not happen with poultry, pigs, cows, horses or any others that I have had experience with and I really dont think it will happen with bees either. Some people even obsess about having beehives that the honey will just pour out on command!

Someone here on the forum had a signature that said "Reality Trumps Ideology"


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## beecavalier (Jan 30, 2014)

PYROBEE...your questions/comments are valid in the context you presented them.

I've worked honeybees off and on since 1975...was commercial...and have always been trying to find the "simplier" solution...sometimes with success and sometimes not. Keep asking those questions and experiment with different management practices...there's always a better way.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

If the discussion was ment to chime in and complement each other's better ways then maybe this thread was ment in the treatmenT free forum
Objective push back and challenge creates better discussion


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Having said that, I wish there were more operations such as yours...where beef and grain farming are done side by side. For beekeepers and the general environment this could be the best case scenario. That's the kind of farm I was raised on.<<

Beecavalier I'll take your comments as a compliment. And I'll agree, diversity is key to nutritional health 
I feel the landscape needs a balance


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

PyroBee, I think you will find this very interesting. https://youtu.be/DUFDXl8VGvs


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Thank you for the video. That is exactly what I am asking. I hope that it works. Both varroa and the bees find a balance. Not treating for 19 years and not having large losses is great. He breeds from the best colonies that handle varroa the best. I hope we see more from the research.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Vance G said:


> Move this to the treatment free thread. The rest of us know the answer.


Why would this be moved to treatment free since the question starts with a suggestion of treating?

On that note. The diseases the bees get from the mites are viral. There are no treatments for viral infections that I know of. there are preventative measures in some cases. A Flu vaccine for example. Even in that case you are getting only a chance of prevention for 3 or 4 of the most prevalent strains of influenza out of the potentially hundreds of strains. Most are like the common cold. untreatable and a vaccine cannot be made. This is simply because there are far to many kinds of Rhino Virus that cause cold symptoms. Part of the solution could be to help keep the bees immune system healthy and active. This would include such issues as good nutrition, reduced stress and reduced exposure to harmful viruses while still being exposed to other immune system triggering substances. The idea behind exposure is based on studies that show that the more sterile your environment the more susceptible you are to infection. an unused immune system goes into pause mode and cannot respond to invasion. As for the idea that the parasite dies if the host population does. this would be true. But in the case of varroa honey bees are not their only host. And of course if the honey bee where to become extinct we would no longer have any interest in what happens to the mite. Is there some rate of loss in the host short of extinction that will resulting the mite being gone? I think we are already pretty far down that trail and not seeing any indication it is so. My guess would be the bee will be gone before the mite is. Already beekeepers talk as if they would be happy with bees simply surviving. What is missing in that is no comment about productive. on a general scale not many that keep bees will have much interest in a bee that only survives. As the struggle goes on I see a trend toward lowering of expectations in the attempt to measure success. Something like at one time. sell my bees still produced 50 lbs of honey when it used to be 100. not it is they survived but I got no honey form them. they survived but are not strong enough to send to pollination. To me that would be counted as a lost hive. lost does not mean dead. it means I got nothing but expenses from it.

Hops Brewster, you are referring to a bacterial infection not a viral one. not the same thing. 

Crofter point out one of the downfalls of varroa resistance. you can lose the bees to a virus or to resistance to the virus. but you will loose the bees either way. I see one possible advantage to resistance. and that is it will bring the mite under control eventually allowing the colony to recover. And that is with a big maybe. so far results have not shown that. bees resist mites to the point that they still cannot recover. It is a work in progress so I don't pass any judgments on it. I see room for additional measures such as attention to colony population and measures to boost it in conjunction with varroa resistant traits.

Nabber, meds do not kill viruses.

I did not read this thread much further at this time. it seems to me it is following a train of thought that is not even possible. IF you do figure out how to treat viruses let me know. the world is very interested in that information.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

PyroBee said:


> Thank you for the video. That is exactly what I am asking. I hope that it works. Both varroa and the bees find a balance. Not treating for 19 years and not having large losses is great. He breeds from the best colonies that handle varroa the best. I hope we see more from the research.


There are probably pockets out there of this example here in the states, one would imagine. R. Oliver is spearheading research to find out more information to that side of the equation, which should be interesting.
In any case, there are people keeping bees without treatment whose bees don't just live, but thrive, mine being some of those bees. Do they make tons of honey and brood to the point of needing 20 supers? No, but they make some surplus and still overwinter on the remainder just fine, without me feeding. It's a balancing act. The bee/physical environments between my backyard and California almonds is shockingly different. I don't see how any bee can run that gauntlet, never mind the varroa, and come out healthier for it.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Daniel Y. and others. I attended the BCHPA AGM yesterday. There was a speaker called Paul Stamets. He is a world class mushroom expert, not the PHd type but the down to earth practical guy. He did some work with Eric Olson and honeybees. He made at least 2 extacts from mushrooms. One was from the red reishi, I forget the other. At a 1 ml per liter concentration, and feeding with pails they were able to reduce the viruses in bees by a factor of 500, the other virus was a 1000 fold decrease. Bottom line, mushrooms have very powerful immunological properties. We will soon have have products for our bees. Patent applications have been made and are about to be given. 

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jean-marc said:


> Daniel Y. and others. I attended the BCHPA AGM yesterday. There was a speaker called Paul Stamets. He is a world class mushroom expert, not the PHd type but the down to earth practical guy. He did some work with Eric Olson and honeybees. He made at least 2 extacts from mushrooms. One was from the red reishi, I forget the other. At a 1 ml per liter concentration, and feeding with pails they were able to reduce the viruses in bees by a factor of 500, the other virus was a 1000 fold decrease. Bottom line, mushrooms have very powerful immunological properties. We will soon have have products for our bees. Patent applications have been made and are about to be given.
> 
> Jean-Marc


With mite counts increasing in a guys hive, a treatment like this would be a good option.

How about efficacy with nosema?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

> Nabber, meds do not kill viruses.
> 
> I did not read this thread much further at this time. it seems to me it is following a train of thought that is not even possible. IF you do figure out how to treat viruses let me know. the world is very interested in that information.


Yes, I know. I was responding to pyrobee who was suggesting that we should try attacking the viruses; I think he even said something about developing a vaccine. My point is why would anyone even want to go down this path? If we are striving for less treatment, why explore something that would lead to more treatment that are more controversial? 


Take care of the mites and the problem is solved; end of story.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

https://youtu.be/DUFDXl8VGvs

dr. declan schroeder (from the video, starting at 8:15):

"what you have is type b, your hives have been protected by this virus, what is known as superinfection exclusion, the infection within your hives is excluding the really nasty virus, the type a, the varroa is keeping your hives immunized in a sense, amazing isn't it."

amazing it is indeed. i'm guessing this may be part of why my colonies are tolerating high mite counts, but i never thought about those high mite counts actually being beneficial.

i received my sample kit from randy oliver this week. it will be interesting to see if his group finds a preponderance of type b dwv in those samples.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Imagine actually treating hives with DWV lol


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

it may come to that ian, thankfully there are those who are thinking 'outside the box'.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

...and then, there are the other 6 viruses to combat


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Ian said:


> ...and then, there are the other 6 viruses to combat


perhaps, although we don't hear about them being much of an issue in tf operations likewise to dwv. if we're lucky those viruses will remain rare, or perhaps also get 'displaced' in a similar fashion. it's shaping up to be a 'good bugs/bad bugs' situation similar the human gut. it makes me wonder what other 'beneficials' are contributing to survival in the hive ecosystem. some have posited that even the softest of mite treatments have the potential to disrupt the balance there. 

it's gratifying to see that the research community is looking at survivor populations. hopefully in time there will be breakthroughs having the potential to turn what appears to be a losing battle into a winning one. jmho.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

squarepeg said:


> amazing it is indeed. i'm guessing this may be part of why my colonies are tolerating high mite counts, but i never thought about those high mite counts actually being beneficial.
> 
> i received my sample kit from randy oliver this week. it will be interesting to see if his group finds a preponderance of type b dwv in those samples.


It's pretty fascinating. We are selecting for the "right" mites as well it would seem in a TF setting. 

Is Randy still taking samples? What are the prerequisites for submittal?


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Since 66% of the bees in the USA are trucked to California to pollinate almonds...the liberal solution for us is to somehow make the bee problem into a California one. Then we can blame them.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Nordak said:


> We are selecting for the "right" mites as well it would seem in a TF setting.


i'm not sure if the mites are genetically different or not, but the viral population sure is. propagating with splits from survivor colonies may help with maintaining the titer of the less virulent viruses.



Nordak said:


> Is Randy still taking samples? What are the prerequisites for submittal?


last word was that he had enough tf samples, but was needing more from treated colonies for comparison.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

squarepeg said:


> i'm not sure if the mites are genetically different or not, but the viral population sure is. propagating with splits from survivor colonies may help with maintaining the titer of the less virulent viruses


Yeah my response was a bit vague, but that's the extent of it. I'll be waiting patiently to see what results come of Mr. Oliver's study. Exciting stuff.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Ian and others. The nice part about a supplemental approach (mushroom extract) is that it will likely be reasonably priced. It is easy to apply to colonies... through syrup feeding. Although Paul Stamet reported success with 2 mushroom extracts on 2 viruses... there may benefits on some other viruses. There also could be other mushrooms that have beneficial effects. The big positive on a nutritional approach is the likelyhood of having some unintended consequence is small.

In my experience bees that get exposed to a good honeyflow can withstand a higher mite load. All it takes is 60 to 70 pounds of surplus nectar and ample pollen.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> perhaps, although we don't hear about them being much of an issue in tf operations likewise to dwv. if we're lucky those viruses will remain rare, or perhaps also get 'displaced' in a similar fashion. it's shaping up to be a 'good bugs/bad bugs' situation similar the human gut. it makes me wonder what other 'beneficials' are contributing to survival in the hive ecosystem. some have posited that even the softest of mite treatments have the potential to disrupt the balance there.
> 
> it's gratifying to see that the research community is looking at survivor populations. hopefully in time there will be breakthroughs having the potential to turn what appears to be a losing battle into a winning one. jmho.


No they are not rare , we just can't see them.
My tests show 3 of 9 detected. DWV not being one of them


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Ian said:


> No they are not rare , we just can't see them.
> My tests show 3 of 9 detected. DWV not being one of them


it would be surprising if no viruses were detected. which 3 and how virulent are they?


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

Daniel Y said:


> Why would this be moved to treatment free since the question starts with a suggestion of treating?
> 
> On that note. The diseases the bees get from the mites are viral. There are no treatments for viral infections that I know of. there are preventative measures in some cases. A Flu vaccine for example. Even in that case you are getting only a chance of prevention for 3 or 4 of the most prevalent strains of influenza out of the potentially hundreds of strains. Most are like the common cold. untreatable and a vaccine cannot be made. This is simply because there are far to many kinds of Rhino Virus that cause cold symptoms. Part of the solution could be to help keep the bees immune system healthy and active. This would include such issues as good nutrition, reduced stress and reduced exposure to harmful viruses while still being exposed to other immune system triggering substances. The idea behind exposure is based on studies that show that the more sterile your environment the more susceptible you are to infection. an unused immune system goes into pause mode and cannot respond to invasion. As for the idea that the parasite dies if the host population does. this would be true. But in the case of varroa honey bees are not their only host. And of course if the honey bee where to become extinct we would no longer have any interest in what happens to the mite. Is there some rate of loss in the host short of extinction that will resulting the mite being gone? I think we are already pretty far down that trail and not seeing any indication it is so. My guess would be the bee will be gone before the mite is. Already beekeepers talk as if they would be happy with bees simply surviving. What is missing in that is no comment about productive. on a general scale not many that keep bees will have much interest in a bee that only survives. As the struggle goes on I see a trend toward lowering of expectations in the attempt to measure success. Something like at one time. sell my bees still produced 50 lbs of honey when it used to be 100. not it is they survived but I got no honey form them. they survived but are not strong enough to send to pollination. To me that would be counted as a lost hive. lost does not mean dead. it means I got nothing but expenses from it.
> 
> ...


Yes, I know bubonic plague is a bacteria. I used that word. To illustrate the point how most efficiently to control pest-vectored diseases an exact match was/is not necessary. after all, by pointing out that there is no treatment for virus infections you have helped illustrate the need to control the vectoring pest in order to reduce the incidence of viral (or bacterial or fungal) infection. 

Thanks for your kind assistance.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Hops I don't know of any measures that where taken to control rats or fleas in regard to the bubonic plague. medicine considered it a problem of foul air during the black death. Nobody knew it came from fleas at that time.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Ian, who tested your bee's viruses and why? Just curious as my bees have been intensively sampled this summer and should be getting some result soon. 

Looks like researchers are dipping their toes in viral ecology. There have probably always been some, and perhaps some unexplained losses in the past are attributable to them. That said considering our basic ignorance about how it works, one wonders about compounds that would affect all viruses. I'm guessing some unintended consequences.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

Daniel Y said:


> Hops I don't know of any measures that where taken to control rats or fleas in regard to the bubonic plague. medicine considered it a problem of foul air during the black death. Nobody knew it came from fleas at that time.


Does that disqualify historical analysis?


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