# MAQS or Apiguard



## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

I usually really like MAQS. It is fast and easy and usually very effective. I have not experienced the queen loss issues that others have reported. I have used it way over the upper temperature limits as well. This year we treated 130 hives with MAQS. I think I replaced a total of 3-4 queens. Two of these were queenless before the treatment went on (I noticed cells when we put the strips in). I think the main thing is not working your hives when you put the strips in. Just split the boxes apart, smoke, scrape, smoke, and place the strips. 
We put treatmens on a couple weeks ago. In a couple of yards the knockdown was not as good as I expected to see. My leading hypothesis is burr comb. These yards were sticky sticky heavy and had alot of burr comb between the boxes. I scraped only what I thought I needed too to fit the strips in. I think the amount of burr comb really hampered the ability of the formic to move around. 
Last year I tried Apiguard in a couple of yards and MAQS in a couple yards. Our treatments went on around now (mid-early september). I was not thrilled with Apiguard. You are not supposed to feed during treatment, which around here mid september, I need to be feeding. And when the MAQS was done and off, i was putting a second round of apiguard on. 
It worked, but not as well as MAQS and it seemed like when we got to CA in January the smaller hives consistently came from yards that got Apiguard treatments. 
I have not yet tried Oxalic. For the last two years we have put Apivar (amitraz) strips in in California (February) to remove late april at home. And used MAQS late august, early september and been pretty happy with the results.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

ApricotApiaries, I appreciate the input. I was very close to buying MAQS last week, pulled the trigger on them just now. I need to be feeding as well, so goofing around for two weeks will not work out with the Apiguard. I typically don't monitor mites and I have all solid bottoms so monitoring drop is a bit tough.

Reguarding burr comb, 75% of my full size colonies have nearly zero (I attribute this to some foundationless frames in most of them). So that shouldn't be an issue. There are a couple with multiple plastic frames seem to like to build up from the plastic to the wood. Either way, even the "bad" ones aren't really bad at all as far as that goes. 

Got a couple more supers to pull tonight or tomorrow then will be weighing/feeding/combining the rest of the season. No more deep inspections or anything this time of year unless I have to. The thing I worry about is the colonies with young queens having issues with the MAQS. They are all laying, but perhaps not quite so entrenched as the overwintered queens. I may reduce them down to singles and give them a smaller dose and sample before I even consider treating them. I typically don't do alcohol washes as I see the need to treat regardless.

Thanks again!


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## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

ApricotApiaries said:


> Istrips in. I think the amount of burr comb really hampered the ability of the formic to move around.
> . You are not supposed to feed during treatment, which around here mid september, I need to be feeding. And when the MAQS was done and off, i was putting a second round of apiguard on.


Really? You are not supposed to feed with the Apiguard on? Why it harm the bees?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

SallyD said:


> Really? You are not supposed to feed with the Apiguard on? Why it harm the bees?


My understanding (from reading their entire FAQ) is that the bees may ignore the thymol gel in favor of the syrup and it will not get spread around enough to be effective. I have no idea how valid that is, but it's something to consider. Their FAQ says you could "experiment" on a few.


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## stajerc61 (Nov 17, 2009)

I've been using MAQS for several years without major queen loss issues. Give them enough air and they will be fine. It may wipe out a weak queen and they will supersede her. I believe it is actually stated in the instructions that supesedure may occur. It also states not to feed during the 7 day treatment. The first three days are the most potent. Good luck!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Formic acid is extremely tough on queens, but nearly 100% effective on mites. 

I don't know how many colonies you have, but if it could be done, I'd remove the queens (each with a few attendants), hang the MAQS strips for 2 days, then re-introduce the queens to their respective homes after teh strips are removed. If it's just the 10 colonies, it's doable.

At some number of colonies, the amount of labor would be impossible to do in a timely fashion, but you could handle your breeder and drone mother colonies this way, and treat the rest with the queens in place. 

If you have nuc's with solid-pattern laying queens, you could combine these with the colonies that try to supercede the queens after the treatment.

Ideally, MAQS should be used on August 15th, across the US.

Incidentally, Oxalic Acid dribble works great on nuc's 19 days after introducing a capped queen cell. No brood + no hiding places + OA = dead mites.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Should I run some ventilation at the top? I have most lids propped to expose notch in inner cover. Will pull all entrance reducers too. Will use one strip in weaker colonies that are limping a little. That way I at least know the bees should be relatively clean of mites if/when I end up combining down. Figuring on loosing about two colonies this fall to combining down, so if MAQS end up taking out a queen or two it will just make the decision a little easier. Zero would be good though.  Going to make some homemade HBH and add a couple drops of that per strip as many seem to indicate that is helpful in queen issues.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

>>if you had to choose one.....
MAQS
>>>queen issue overblown.....
not if the temps are near the upper range and the air circulation is inhibited
by reducer or no air movement at hive location. 
>>>>cage queen...
I don't and have lost very few, 2% or so of questionable queens to start with.
>>>>>counter productive....
I think so. Part of the reason for using MAQS is ease of use, quickness of treatment, effectiveness.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Use 2 strips on all of the full ten frame boxes, 1 between 3&4, the other between 6&7. Gotta be at the top of the box, however tall it is. The stuff goes straight down. Reduce entrance is correct. Only allow upper hive vent if it gets hot. I use an inner cover and a telescoping cover - works fine. My buddy uses commercial tops - works fine. Gets better than 95% of the mites under the brood caps, often 100%. 

I can believe Apricot about the burr comb problem. Cut it out before treatment.

Out here in CA, we have to have a Structural Pest Control Board approved Applicator's License to use formic acid. Test is easy, but it's 3 hours away from me.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

kilocharlie,
It's just the 10 colonies, I've talked to a few people who I trust more than myself who seemed to indicate that the FA fumes may overpower QMP for a time, which leads the colony to believe itself to have a failing queen when she really isn't "failing" maybe just not quite perfect. In a sense amplifying an issue. I may pull a few that I really don't want to lose and cage them. But then I'll be trying to reintro after a somewhat traumatic experience for the colony... which may not go well. And I really don't want to have to sort through 20-30 frames looking for cells starting just after/during the treatment. 

I guess I say all that to say that (what I have read, no first hand experience) the queen doesn't "die" or anything, it just seems to make the colony supercede sooner than they normally would have?

Coming to the realization here in year #2 that beekeeping has more tradeoff scenarios than I may have otherwise imagined. Surveys seem to show 50%+ loss in this state without treatments. State Apiarist has something like 5% loss with treatment and proper feeding. Last year I had all five alive overwinter, this year I've grown to 13 colonies. Had some late season swarms... talking with other beekeepers and state apiarist... I am not alone. Was a wild summer flow where colonies would normally cut into stores a bit before autumn flow... it just kept right on roaring and a lot of them hit the trees.

I am leaning towards sampling for mites before I do any MAQS, but even with alcohol washes, I've felt that mite washes (at least in my noob hands) are inaccurate. I was scared straight by the mites this spring when I noticed snotbrood and other nasty stuff. Just saw my first DWV drone in my two years of experience after three weeks of OAV. Coming to realize that large amounts of brood hides large amounts of mites from the OAV and while it may knock them down a bit... it may not be "enough" if colonies have 6-10 frames of capped brood like some of mine did. Just too much breeding ground...



So if I have a three deep colony and two deep colonies, and still others in varying degrees of deep + medium configurations, I should put the strips on top of the upper most brood box, correct? The instructions say in between, but I know FA vapors are heavy so they drop, which leads me to think the brood above the strips won't be very heavily fumigated. The three deep colony has brood in all three deeps... 3-5 frames per chamber. Should I consolidate all of them in the bottom two boxes or just put them in and let the bees sort it out? I hate to move that much brood around this late, but they're brooding on the west half of the hive in three boxes. Goofy dang bees. It's packed three deeps, too. Not like I stretched them out.

Temps are going to be highs in the 75-80 degree day. Nearly all my colonies are in at least partial/afternoon shade. A few are full sun all day long. Doesn't stop them from bearding when it's in the 90s and humid, though.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

kilocharlie said:


> Use 2 strips on all of the full ten frame boxes, 1 between 3&4, the other between 6&7. Gotta be at the top of the box, however tall it is. The stuff goes straight down. Reduce entrance is correct. Only allow upper hive vent if it gets hot.


http://nodglobal.com/maqs-application-na/
Reduce entrance?
No, no, no.
Maybe that's why you claim MAQS is extremely tough on queens.
Am I missing something here?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> http://nodglobal.com/maqs-application-na/
> Reduce entrance?
> No, no, no.
> Maybe that's why you claim MAQS is extremely tough on queens.
> Am I missing something here?


clyderoad, I read that as, me being correct that I need to pull the entrance reducer as I mentioned doing in a post farther up.
It is misleading, though.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Yes, right on the very top.

It burns their sense of smell, true, but you gotta burn the mites. They die, the bees just get irritated. I'll try to run comparison tests for entrance reduction vs. queen supercedure after Formic treatment. You may be right.

We are strong believers in fresh queens. My commercial buddies re-queen at least twice a year. So we either treat with formic, then re-queen, or give them a 3rd queen that year. $26 for a queen is cheap compared to $190 for pollination in the almonds, let alone avocado, apricot, cherimoya, plums, apples, and what ever else we can get contracts for. So $78 dollars for 3 queens also makes sense.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I will treat my nucs or weak colonies (for reasons other than poor queens) as my queen reserve for my MAQS run.

Kilocharlie, are you saying that you DO reduce entrances? This certainly doesn't follow the advice of the manufacturer. I wish I had a reliable source of mated queens... it's been too hit or miss in my limited purchases. Either great, or duds... others just limp around. So $76 for three queens looks more like $150 for three queens by the time you get good ones. Most of the queens in my 10 colonies are new this year some mated in June, some in July, some in August, and even a few mated right around the first part of this month. 

My "breeder queen" quotations because I have no better term for her... is going into her 2nd winter, heading up a strong three deep colony. Got a couple others going into their 2nd winters too, but they don't show any signs of weakness. The only weak colonies I have are due to late swarming, honestly. 

I appreciate everyone's input and hope some more folks weigh in. I am considering the idea of the single strip treatment, does anyone have any idea how much less effective it would be? If I can get most knocked down before this last 1.5 brood cycles or so before things start really slowing down. I am planning on using OAV around Thanksgiving (and maybe again later in the winter if weather allows "just in case") to give them one last knock down before spring brood up.

Still paying for being late to the mite control party... should have taken care of this in part last winter to keep them in check during spring build up.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

OK, so then it is best to do a mite test, as your queens are young yet. Check out Randy Oliver's alcohol wash test www.scientificbeekeeping.com

We use Formic acid, make our own strips, not MAQS. So I do not have manufacturer's instructions. Sounds like you should go ahead and open them up at the bottom. I use the 5-bee passage on the stick blocker, not the 1-bee passage.

Most of the hives are 3 boxes tall by August, so the hive block passage can't be too small, and the top of mine have the inner cover vent.

My buddies have not had much trouble with the queens they have bought, the worst I've heard is 50 out of 52 accepted. Occasional entire batches were bad, replaced immediately. I introduce mated queens with the Laidlaw cage, it works.

We always used 2 strips to make **** sure we got all the mites. 1 strip should be enough for a nuc'.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Wait a sec! MAQS is done with pads that are laid horizontally on top of the frames between the two brood chambers, NOT hung down between the frames of any part. They are not placed at the top of the hive. (That may be the method for using a home-brewed formic acid product, but not for MAQS products.) 

I just checked the package insert and I am quite sure of this unless they have changed the instructiuons very recently.

You need a lot of ventilation; if you also need robber screens, etc., switch to devices made from screen not solid material.

FWIW I have used both the MAQS two-strip and the one-strip dosing and not lost a queen in eight hive-uses. Did it Aug 1 (two strip dosing) and mid-Sept. last year (one-strip dosing). I made sure my max daytime temp never exceeded 81F, both times. I didn;t pull the queens, which were all at least in their second, if not third, laying season. Brood loss was hardly noticeable.

BTW, Apiguard is not just two weeks, it's _two,_ 14-day treatments, back to back. So a month when you can't feed. (Actually it may be two, 21 day treatments, so a total of 42 days under treatment. I haven't used it recently so I may be misremembering the length of each treatment, but I'm confident you need to use two little trays, one after the other.

Enj.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Enj, 
Correct, I guess that's what I meant, a month of no feeding won't cut it for me here. A week, I can handle. Placed the order today for MAQS. Should be here to treat starting this weekend. Will be curious to see how it goes and what, if any, losses I have. 
The homebrew method kilocharlie is talking about sounds similar to whatever University study published with their fumigation board. That kind of flash treatment seems somewhat "tough" as temperature and ventilation are the only things slowing release. Should have cooler temps like you are talking about, Enj. Any additional venting or just bottom entrance wide open?

Highs between 67 and 82 during that week. Wouldn't be 80 until day 4 or 5.


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

Jw ..I follow the oxavap method that Old timer uses. Old timer (thanks Old Timer) treats every 5 days for 4 treatments. The 7 day 3 times wasn't nearly as effective for me as the 4 treatments every 5 days during brooding time as in fall and spring. I do 1 treatment about Thanksgiving during broodless time.


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## msc (Aug 9, 2015)

I treat 100+ with MAQS, I use one pad twice a year, with hbh. i feel one pad knocks them back enough without causing brood production loss or queen issues. I've used two pads before and lost a brood cycle. It sounds crazy but I feel they need to deal with mites on a small scale to help build up some resistance.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Bkwoodsbees, can't justify that frequent of OAV treatment. I have no doubt that would be a better schedule, though.

Regarding those that use one strip instead of two... Do you see much difference in treatment effectiveness? I am leaning towards one strip and already planning to do OAV during broodless period. MAQS will be here tomorrow.


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## Pinchecharlie (May 14, 2014)

Although Iam new and only have six hives they've all been treated with maqs spring and fall. Two strips between brood supers . So far no queen loss and minimal brood break/ bee mortality. UM had a video as part of the treatment options in the course I took a while back. The video was from the manufacturer and one thing they recommend that I still haven't done , is to leave the super that's on top of the strips hanging over the lower super so there is a two inch or so opening. I remember thinking that it could just rain in there or even be easy access for robbing. I leave a medium super on as a place of refuge for the hive, another of their recommendations . Truth is I've done it without and had no problems but they did beard heavily. In fact I have maqs on right now and as of yesterday which was day 6 the hives looked the same as before, lots of activity pollen coming in and one hive was having an orientation flight. There will be dead bees and pupae but I haven't lost a hive in winter and my mites got bad enough to notice dwv. As far as one strip, I don't know I just follow the recommends for the amount of bees in the hive and by the looks of your hive I think the recommended dose would be two and I don't think that hive will be to bothered by it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I largely have strong two deep colonies (or some mish-mash of deeps + mediums). The others that are weaker are weak because of very late season swarming. Queens should still be good. And they're young for the most part.
If I get the MAQS on the colonies on Saturday we have 2-3 days with highs between 65-70 and then 78-80 the rest of the seven days. Will pop the entrance reducers out and prop top covers a bit with clothes pin wedges just for a little extra air.

I do appreciate all of the input. For my three deep colony... does anyone think I should consolidate the brood down into the bottom two deeps before treatment? They are kind of running up the west side of the hive.

Enjambres, do you give any additional ventilation other than a wide open bottom entrance?

Going to rig up some sticky boards with contact paper and #8 hardware cloth the next couple nights so that I can get a better idea of mite drop on my solid bottom boards


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

A West Virginia University team has a couple of papers out under the SARE grant program on using formic acid to treat for mites. They use the same concentration as MAQS but treat faster and harder, largely sealing up the hive and using 50% FA on evaporating pads. MAQS uses a gel and a paper covering that slows release, and recommends ventilation of the hive.

The WVU group had trouble with queen losses (on the order of 25%), and thought queen balling was the cause, not direct toxicity to the queen by the FA. They tried several variations, then mixed HBH into the solution, which pretty much solved the problem.

I've got MAQS on two hives right now, and because I've used the WVU method in the past, I also stuck in a paper towel pad with some HBH on it just to be sure. But if the makers of MAQS thought it was beneficial, I would expect they'd have included something in their kit.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Phoebee, read the same report you're talking about. Planning on putting a couple drops each of spearmint and lemongrass oil on a a couple gun paper towel squares or cardboard and placing them in the colony as well. Figure it's decent insurance.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Plopped the MAQS in this AM. Fashioned some sticky boards so we'll see what happens. Bees didn't react much, I did one strip in a 5 over 5 nuc in my backyard that had a dud queen or a queen saddled with mites. Will be combined down so decided to use them to observe.

Will post results in a week.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

The one week counts on the two hive I just treated:

Hive Z, which was heavily infested mid-summer but nearly died, is now requeened with a VSH queen and at about nuc strength: 36 mites. Not sure if they're really that good, or still not tasty varroa bait after a near-fatal brood break. The queen was spotted alive and well.

Hive I, I got tired of counting at about 280 mites dropped, and estimated a total of 600-ish. They were raining in there, with more than ten per square in spots. Hive strength guess is about 30,000 (this was bought as a nuc mid-summer), so maybe this was a 2% or so infestation. There should be more coming as it takes a couple of weeks to clear out the dead mites in capped brood.


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## Rob Hughes (Apr 23, 2012)

I have used MAQS a few times as per directions and they seem good.

One question for those using them: I treated one hive recently, treatment ended a week ago. Yesterday when checking the sticky board (I use sheet alum. as a pull-out drawer under a SBB, coated with Vaseline) I noticed quite a heavy mite drop and wondered if this is residual mite mortality following use of MAQS. Of course I hope it is, as otherwise it is not good news. Anyone else noticed this?

cheers

Rob


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Rob Hughes said:


> I have used MAQS a few times as per directions and they seem good.
> 
> One question for those using them: I treated one hive recently, treatment ended a week ago. Yesterday when checking the sticky board (I use sheet alum. as a pull-out drawer under a SBB, coated with Vaseline) I noticed quite a heavy mite drop and wondered if this is residual mite mortality following use of MAQS. Of course I hope it is, as otherwise it is not good news. Anyone else noticed this?
> 
> ...


The mites under the capped brood are killed, so as brood hatches out for two weeks after treatement you can expect to see them fall.

Enjoy the carnage!


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## Rob Hughes (Apr 23, 2012)

For sure this is what is claimed, and I was hoping this was what I was seeing. I will keep monitoring. If this mite drop post-treatment was all in-cell mites then it is pretty impressive.

Rob


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

The nuc I put a single strip in has barely left the hive until today finally. Not sure what to make of that. Pretty good flow going right now... Will be curious to see the carnage and see if I have any queen issues across my colonies. Couple mite bodies on landing board of the nuc, not dead bees yet. I'll post pics when I pull boards.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Update with results. I ended up treating seven "full size" hives and one 5 over 5 nuc. The nuc and one small full sizer got one strip each. The rest got full two strip dose. 

I found two colonies with queen cells today. I believe they both swarmed. It has been a wild year and OAV every week starting with tweaker pipe method used up a lot of my wife's good will towards the bees. Then bought proper vaporizer and did another course. She was less than impressed. So I left them alone too long with too strong a fall flow. I do not think MAQS had any affect on their queen situations. Reading the brood told me that no queen had laid in their recently. No open brood. So issue happened before I treated September 12th. In fact I watched about 15 queens emerge and killed at least that many more in one of the colonies. So formic was on the hive during queen cell development and they seemed just fine. 

In general very very little brood killed. Some noted in a couple colonies otherwise not much. It did appear that queens quit laying briefly or at least slowed down. But most colonies had a little open brood and quite a few eggs. In fact my "breeder" queen handled it quite well and in the meantime they have finally got her pushed down into the bottom brood box (triple deep) and she has laid very well. 

My makeshift sticky boards were a failure. Saw good amount of mites but bees were under and between the contact paper and screen. The nuc was flat out loaded with mites. Piles of them on their bottom board. Queen laying fine, though. Noticed a lot of fuzzy bees have DWV so they are probably toast. Will try to winter them with resources from one of the queenless hives though. 

Overall happy with the treatment. Easy to use, seems effective and not too bad on the bees. 

Weather was first 2 days highs in mid-70s last four days highs in mid to upper-80s. Peaked at 88 or 89 on day 4 and 5 I think.

Got a good amount of capped brood in most still so will be interesting to see if there is more evidence of mite fall during the next week or so.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Checked last two today. Both looked great. They didn't appear to have really slowed down on laying. 
These two are daughters of a superceded package Cordovan out of California. Brood rearing monsters...


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Well there you go. As some have said
MAQS works well, is easy to use and easy on queens if directions are followed.
Now you have a new tool in your varroa tool box.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I really appreciate the input from everyone on here who helped me feel confident enough to pull the trigger. 

I could see higher temps being an issue. But we have the luxury of really good weather in the right time of year mostly. Wish I would have done it sooner, though. Next year.


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## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

I used the apiguard - but did leave a super of honey on for them - I now realize I should have taken the honey super off according to directions. I left it on because we are in a dearth and what would they eat? Will this honey be tainted with the apiguard on?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Should be OK for bees, right? I mean there's honey in the broodnest when these treatments are on and they survive it. So I'd assume that if you leave it for the bees you'll be just fine.


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