# Lots of bees in Cali????



## Keith Jarrett

*dang rookies*



simplyhoney said:


> beeks with bees and no place to go.


Simplyhoney, Try asking Alpha6, according to his post's there is NO problems placing good bees in Calif.


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## high rate of speed

Lol.:lookout:


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## Tom G. Laury

*Balloons & bubbles*

The balloon has popped, the bubble has burst let the fun begin!


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## mbholl

A broker mentioned that he was getting calls from lots of beeks looking for contracts - BUT - when he went to look at their hives they were only 2-3 frames!


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## alpha6

As this thread is going the brokers are going through and grading the hives. So far haven't heard one way or the other as to how this is going but should hear something by the end of the week. So far I haven't heard of any problems, change in prices or shortage or overage of bees.

On another note like I said before you should try and line up hives with either a broker that has contracts already or with a grower before this point and time. Additionally, anyone trying to place weak hives are going to get rejected or get paid a low dollar amount. I have seen it before where it starts just like here "someone placed hives at 90 bucks ea." Well, doesn't mean a thing. The guy could have gotten a good deal, the beek was desperate to get his hives rented so gave him a low price, the bees were crap, it was the guys cousin, who knows? 

Best of luck to those still trying to place hives. Hope you get a good price. And good luck to those growers trying to find good bees this late.


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## jim lyon

*extra bees?*

Just went through our Texas bees, pattied and fed everything. Have about 600 singles averaging around 7 combs and 600 doubles that should easily go 8to 10 combs right now with bees starting to brood up nicely. My usual contacts on the west side are all talking about getting contracts cut back and price wars brewing. If anyone out there wants to handle some really good bees gimmie a PM.


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## Keith Jarrett

alpha6 said:


> On another note like I said before you should try and line up hives with either a broker that has contracts already or with a grower before this point and time. And good luck to those growers trying to find good bees this late.


Alpha6, could you please read your thread that you started on page #3 "Almond News".

Can we say "flip flop" , this is an important topic for those of us that make our living at this.


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## alpha6

Keith,

I don't know what you are talking about regarding flip flopping. I have stated before that beeks should get their contracts lined up ahead of time and not wait till the last minute. Tom L. and I discussed this before. Waiting till its time to place to start looking for a contract is probably not the best business practice. I send my bees out to Calf. and use a broker. There are a number of us that use the broker (s) and know how many hives they are going to need. Between us we fill the requests. I know in years past that they have needed more and can usually find them but I haven't seen a case yet where we sent them out and they said they didn't need um. Having that locked by Oct. takes alot of stress out of getting them ready for Calf. and once shipped knowing they will be used.

I don't understand why you would think I would take this subject lightly? I was the first to advocate with Barry about a commercial thread because I think it is critical for commercial beeks to communicate with each other. If you want my personal thoughts on how to best do things PM me as others have done. Do I have all the answers...no, but if enough of us put our heads together and figure out the best way to do things and run our own destiny instead of waiting for the almond growers or someone else to dictate to us at the last minute our business we would be better off as a group. 

My dos centavos


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## Keith Jarrett

alpha6 said:


> Keith,I don't know what you are talking about regarding flip flopping.


Alpha6, the "almond thread" you state where almond demand is threw the roof, & you write a half a page about it, Well right now as we speak they are having problems selling them at a good price, not to mention the water issue.

You also state where good luck to growers that wait, Well jimmy Post says he has bees in texas that need a home, GOOD bees he says, it's right below your post that says good luck to growers that are looking for good bees.

I have gotten twenty calls from good keepers that can't place bees So lets not assume it's all rosie out there.

Thats what Im talking about flip flop.


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## alpha6

Keith,

You got to keep you head about you. "(October 9, 2008, Paris) – Almonds continue to be the second most frequently used nut in new nut-containing food products worldwide, and *if *demand continues to grow at this rate, almonds will become the number one nut for global new product introductions by 2009."

Note the date. That was the news at the time. I can't control the price of almonds anymore then I can control the weather. So just because the situation may have changed doesn't change the fact at the time. 

Additionally, if I could hook up Jimmy with a grower or broker I would. Obviously there is a breakdown between the beeks and the growers or it would be easier for Jimmy to get his bees onto a grove or at least know that all orders are filled and they won't be needed. This is what I meant when I said we (commercial beeks) need to get our act together better and maybe we can work out these issues as a group for the good of all.

Like I mentioned before. You seem to have missed it when I stated several times that *you are better off lining up your contracts before now.* I am not taking anything away from any beek and I am sure there are lots out there with good bees and hopefully they can place them, but it is a dangerous business practice to wait until the last minute to try and do this. It's a gamble plain and simple. I never said it was rosie out there, but getting sucked into the panic that happens every year is something I try and avoid by mitigating as many of the factors that go into getting my bees into almonds as possible. 

As for the growers the reason I stated this was that last year I heard from the brokers that many growers waiting till the last minute to get bees because they thought they could get a better price got hosed with high prices for 3 to 4 frames of bees because there just weren't any available.


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## Keith Jarrett

alpha6 said:


> Keith,
> 
> You got to keep you head about you. "(October 9, 2008, Paris) – Almonds continue to be the second most frequently used nut in new nut-containing food products worldwide, and *if *demand continues to grow at this rate, almonds will become the number one nut for global new product introductions by 2009."
> 
> Note the date. That was the news at the time. .


Alpha6, you keep talking about demand, the fact of the matter is you nor do I, know what it's going to be. 

Again, your POST page #4 "joe news" #10 & #22, you rattle off about fuel prices and demand, how that will have and effect.

I wish you would just stop with your forecast's, you are batting way below 500 at this time.lets take a wait & see approch .


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## jim lyon

*late contracts*

Thought maybe it was good business to not promise bees early that I don't know for sure that I will have. I have some good contacts among some of the biggest beeks in the country. Right now they are all singing the same tune and that is that the contracts just aren't coming as easy as previous years. Maybe it's the water situation maybe it is undercutting the fact remains that it is a buyers (or should we say a renters) market at least in the west at the moment. Maybe in coming weeks that will change but at the moment things are definately different that in years past.


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## alpha6

Keith, 

Maybe you should take an economics and business course and maybe you can start to get a grasp on how things work. Fuel prices do effect prices, demand does effect prices, supply effects prices I don't get why this is so difficult for you to understand? I haven't forecast anything I only pointed out indicators of what is going on in the industry. That my friend is called information that should be utilized in making informed decisions. If you chose not to use the information or plan or have a strategy then don't blame others for your lack of understanding or abilities. Your wait and see approach is risky. I prefer to plan ahead and minimize the risk. Your choice, as well as mine. I am not panicking right now but enjoying the winter. My bees are placed. I am preparing for the spring...all part of a plan, something that has served me well for many, many years.

Jim, I understand how that is. Around here we try and work together so that if someone is short the others can pick up the slack and vice/versa. It has served us well, but you have to have comm beeks willing to work together, something we are lucky to have. Trust me if I hear of anyone looking for bees I will PM you straight away. I do hope you and all the others get to place your bees. I hate all the panicking and hand ringing that goes on with these almonds this time of year which is why I do it the way I do...no worries..unless all of Calf burns down with my hives...now that would tick me off.


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## Keith Jarrett

alpha6 said:


> Keith,
> 
> Maybe you should take an economics and business course and maybe you can start to get a grasp on how things work. Fuel prices do effect prices, demand does effect prices, supply effects prices I don't get why this is so difficult for you to understand? I haven't forecast anything I only pointed out indicators of what is going on in the industry.


Econ was my Major!

You talk about high fuel cost in that post (where are they at), you have been batting around 200. If you would take the time to read your "post" since Oct on this subject (almonds), very few of your perdiction are coming true.

That is very misleading for some that don't see the true story.


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## alpha6

Keith..what was the price of fuel in Oct? What is it now? What was it in Dec when I shipped my bees? Fuel costs are down, therefore that is less of an expense for shipping. Thus...the cost of shipping the hive to Calf. which would be factored into the rates for rent will be lower...*IF* that is one of the factors taken into consideration. What the heck kind of economics degree did you get? I bet you are really a philosophy major and were on the debate team. 

As far as my batting average...my hives are all placed...I would say that gives me a 1000 average...so far haven't struck out.

and please tell us, what is the "true story"?


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## BEES4U

*what is the "true story"?*

Good grower communications, orchard layout, orchard location, payment schedule, orchard security, spray schedule, inspection, actual frame count, staging areas, post pollination locations for splits, and much more----------
Ernie


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## Keith Jarrett

alpha6 said:


> Keith..what was the price of fuel in Oct? What is it now? What was it in Dec when I shipped my bees?



You said in post #11 that you had all locked in by Oct, so Oct, Dec fuel is ?

The point I was making that you were trying to support high fuel to high rental price, so how about $2.05 right now!

Your posts show what little you know about the almonds.

I bet you can't even tell me what potash has done over the last year,.

This is whats wrong, a few keepers talking about things they haven't got a clue.

Alpha6, my folks,Uncles, grandparents have had and grow almonds,
Last time I looked, I didn't see any almonds in the rockies.


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## alpha6

You must have gotten hit in the head lots standing under those almond trees. Why are you sowing your wrath on me about this? So far you haven't shown one thing I have said doesn't relate to the economics of bees and almond rentals. I am getting tired of repeating myself and all you can come up with is that someone who doesn't share your wait and see attitude doesn't have a clue? Yeah, you are on top of it. I don't see you posting anything useful for those asking questions. 

Waiting on you Keith...enlighten us with your almond wisdom...tell us the "true story"...I am serious. I would like to know as would others here. Or are you just the "chicken little, sky is falling" kind of guy and this is all we can expect?


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## Keith Jarrett

alpha6 said:


> Waiting on you Keith...enlighten us with your almond wisdom...


I see almonds being flat for a year or two, I see the inflation going wild in the U.S. which in turn will force the feds to rise interest rate, I also see a very weak dollar coming.Forign dollars will only keep up our U.S. debt if the return is there and with a weakening dollar interest rate will jump.

Having said that, the real issue is overseas markets, with a weak dollar this could be a big plus for future sales, as far as U.S. sales I think are going to be weak.

Econ 101 Alpha6


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## Ian

I hope your wrong Keith, but I have to say, I agree with your outlook from where we see economy sitting right now. What you describe is very bad for Canada.
Lets just hope we all climb out of this thing without the spinning loose!


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## irwin harlton

*hate to pour doom and gloom but*

no U.S. economic recovery till 2015

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=9957


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## Keith Jarrett

Irwin,

doom & gloom.... you are right on the "money" something American's don't have in there saving.

It's going to be harder than before to pull out, because we have loss our manufactor base in this country. They call it a sevice economy.

And who do we elect to lead...  man we are in deep


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## HarryVanderpool

*K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple STUPID!)*

I hope that this is not too off-topic.
The business model that I see in many beekeepers' almond pollination, I want nothing to do with.
Brokers? No thank you.
I have the same grower that I have had all along. Again this year his operation is expanding. 
Most of my friends also provide hives to the same growers that they have , year after year.
Now, I, like a lot of you recieved the calls on the cell, from excited beekeepers talking $160, $180, $200, $240.....ect
In the end THEY ALL HAD TO BEG BROKERS FOR NEW PLACEMENT @ $140- $155
Finally, I recieve a call one day from my grower, "Harry; what are you thinking on price?"
Not wanting to answer of the cuff, I ask, "Why, whats up?"
"I just want you to know I am NOT going to pay the rediculous amounts floating about", he said.
I said, "OOOOH, don't worry. I'm not goiung to gouge you. Have I ever gouged you? We'll come to an agreement just like we always do; relax!"
He said, "Well I'm sorry, but I just wanted to be up front with you; I am not paying $185.00"
Since then, I have my signed contract back, and called in a friend to provide an additional 550 hives for a first year crop there.
My almong grower and I have developed a friendly and mutually benifitial relationship over the years. And that is the way it shall continue, if I have my way.
The last thing I want to do is go hunting every year just so I can make $5 more. (or maybe much less in the end)
Again, I hope this is on-topic.


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## LSPender

*On subject*

Here is what I am seeing. Their are a few rookies from out of the area running around calling every grower in site in the south valley. This creates a sense to growers that there are extra quality bees. Unfortunately some are not well versed in the almond business. ie what the function of the broker is and how to position one as one. This does not happen overnight.
The next thing is that people come to ca for the first time without places to take the hives, they then panic and cause all kinds of trouble for the rest of the beeks, because they then create a bidding war, they then don't come back the next year and leave a mess . ie new grower wants to inspect every hive (total of 1100, of which 500 are mine) , this grower got poor bees & poor crop last season. I look forward to creating a long term relation as I grow my pollination business.

Suggestion: Anyone who has any thought of coming to CA, do your homework. Start with Randy Olivers CA dreaming artilcles published in the ABJ and on his web site, www.scientificbeekeeping.com you will discover the pollination business is no bed of roses.

Next understand the weather paterns of the area you will be winter you bees, tough for bees to grow in fog at 47 degrees.

Next, as in home improvement projects, double everything, expenses & time. If your bus plan won't work with either higher expenses or twice as many non rentable hives ( dinks, outs, duds, pick a name, it will work) stay away. 

Reccomendation, If you are one that is calling around to growers, do not sell yourself short. Understand the going rates that other beeks and brokers are charging in your area. Do not just quote a price and run, as all good salesman, gather information, if they have a beek and are happy move on. If they need bees find out why, what happened to previous beek and be prepared to say the most powerful word in business, NO. 

So a little off subject, now back, the word I am hearing is that there are extra bees, but also a lot of uncommited growers, I have seen more switching of beeks by growers than any previous years, My forcast is that this type of year will clean out some beeks that travel great distances to ca and are not set up here to operate.

To the great year we will all have!

Larry


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## Ian

>>I said, "OOOOH, don't worry. I'm not goiung to gouge you. Have I ever gouged you? We'll come to an agreement just like we always do; relax!"
He said, "Well I'm sorry, but I just wanted to be up front with you; I am not paying $185.00"
Since then, I have my signed contract back


Thats all fine and dandy Harry, but why then arnt you still paying 65$ for a rented colony?
150$ for a rented hive was rediculous a few years back, yet, that was the going rate, and it seems to be holding as a baseline now.
So how long are you going to hold onto your price before you jack it up to 185$, the rediculous price, which may well become the baseline price.

I do understand what your saying though, I play the same game on rented land. I hold the same relationships, and barter very much the same, other than I sign multi year contracts, negotiable when the contract expiers. 

I guess the question is really, how strong of a relationship do we have with our clients, to be able to give and take on both sides to find the consistant baseline price everyone is happy with


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## Keith Jarrett

LSPender said:


> Suggestion: Anyone who has any thought of coming to CA, do your homework. Start with Randy Olivers CA dreaming artilcles published in the ABJ and on his web site, www.scientificbeekeeping.com you will discover the pollination business is no bed of roses.
> Larry


Great suggestion, I founded & co-wrote that artical.

It all started one morning in Febuary, when I stop in a cafe in Ripon Calif there were a couple keepers down and out. We started talking about almonds, they said they have bees with no contracts. I asked them why did you drive out west here some 1000 miles with no contract.
They said there was a artical in the ABJ from a man in MO that said it's a gold rush in Calif, That they were planting & selling almonds with no end in sight.

Well those guys never did get there bees placed, the more I thought about it the matter I got.

So, I picked up the phone and called Joe Graham the editor of American Bee Journal. I told him that the artical about almonds is very misleading and in fact is hurting some beekeepers.

He ask me to write what I thought was a sound story of the almond pollination & he would publish it in the Journal, so when I began getting info up & down the state I talked with Randy, he said he would help & help he did. 

So now you know the rest of the story......


Now, Alpha6 talks about record crops more acaerage of almonds,

MAN HERE WE GOING AGAIN WITH A OUT-OF-STATER TALKING ALMONDS.


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## Tom G. Laury

*Pumped, deflated*

The hardshell California varieties that set the main 08 crop are being offered at less than .90 lb., but are not moving at all, domestic or overseas. Very few of the new big plantings have been self financed, instead borrowed money has funded development ( think interest rate ). One reason some growers are holding off is that they CAN"T GET FINANCING. We are not immune to the national & international economic malaise. Things are changing really fast. Looks like survival of the fittest time.


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## Keith Jarrett

Very well said, Tom


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## Tom G. Laury

*Thanks*

Keith for the support and also for the sometimes bitter doses of reality. Personally, I'm looking forward to the Big Shakeout looming on the horizon. The survivors will enjoy many benefits from it.


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## soupcan

*Beeks & Farmers*

It's called greed & stupidity.
A farmers & beekeepers worst friend.
Farm ground here in Nebraska is renting for $225 to $250 for dry land.
Spoke with one of my wife's & I best friend last nite.
He lost 200 acres the he & his father farmed for the last 42 years.
He lost the ground to a cash bid of $305 an acre.
He sat down with the banker ( who also farms ) and crunched some numbers.
This ground sits right across from ground that he owns.
After farming this property for so long he knows darn good and well what this farm will produce.
The numbers at the bank at $305 an acre would in no way work or cash flow as they call it.
Hence the greed & stupidity.
Beeks are no better.
Pack ther bags, & run out to the left coast with no paper work & then the price cutting starts.
Grain prices are in the tank for the last week or so & the main reason for this is that there is simply no real money left to spend in the world.
No money to buy grains & some times our meat products.
I have no idea how the nut marktes will hold up if countries can not afford to purchase garins & meats as such.
Spoke with our neighbor down the road the other nite.
He has 10 or 12 loads to go west in a few weeks.
Never seen or heard him this upset in the 20+ years we have done business.
The subject was all the price cutting being tried this year in the almonds.
Time will tell but long story short farmers & beekeepers are there own worst enemy.
Greed & stupidity are many times there partners!


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## alpha6

Read next post


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## alpha6

Keith,

Ok...I have been reading over your old posts and think I now understand where you are coming from. I understand what it is like to run a large operation and have people come in and cut the prices out from under you. I can understand now that my posts may have been misinterpreted by some to want to "rush" out west with their bees hoping to place them. My apologies. 

From a post by Keith - 
"Many keepers now know what they don't have in their boxes for the almonds. We have plenty of boxes here in Calif.

The farmers, on the other hand, are sitting on the fence, waiting for last minute cheap bees, like last years mess.

This is not going happen this year. Many keepers last year jumped on the band wagon, headed west and got burnt. Some here on beesource are chomping at the bit to come out, with no experience of almond pollination. They do however want to tag-along at the last minute. This is a receipe for disaster. One needs to know the supply/demand part of the equation and proceed carefully.
What we don't need, is what happen last year. This was mainly due to inexperienced keepers. They drove the market down to $75/ hive at the last minute. Desperate keepers hurt everyone, established keepers and growers.

Keith Jarrett"

Sound advice. No one wins in these cases. Best of luck to you this year Keith.


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## Tom G. Laury

*Pollination situation*

OK Here we go...the market for bee rental has collapsed...there are 20-30,000 colonies here and getting the COLD SHOULDER...within 10 days bees will be offered at 80-90$ ea....Panic & desperation is upon us...man my $140 deals look good right now I could get all the bees I want for what ever I want to pay...good bye & good riddance...it's a time of reckoning...goosd luck to all...Tom:applause:


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## Matt Beekman

....Panic & desperation is upon us.. 

Breathe Tom! It is going to be O.K. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that for those that planned ahead and have good bees there deligence will be rewarded. In the grand scheme of things 20-30 thousand colonies is just a small percentage of the total market. 

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." - Applies to this years almond pollination market.


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## jean-marc

The problem with having just 1 or 2 % extra colonies on the supply side is the perception it creates as having an overabundance of hives available. It's enough to set off that panic and downward spiral on the price side. On the other hand that same 1-2 % colonies short in California can have the opposite effect, where growers drive the price up.

Hope it all works out for all concerned.

Jean-Marc


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## LSPender

*word on the street*

second hand info, will be confirming Sat,
Semi loads came into fresno area within the past 2 days from across the country, mortality rate 50%. Maybe a cold trip or something else, but I know its frustrating to grade bees, pick the best put them on the semi, pay for the trip and over half not qualify. Unfortunataly this is still a reality in our industry

I will confirm with more info Sat.

Larry


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## alpha6

I wouldn't wish a lose on anyone. Keep us updated and thanks for posting Larry.


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## jjgbee

*LS Pender*

Talked to farm manager from Tejon Ranch tuesday night at a water meeting. He had the impression that there were a lot of bees around because he was getting calls as you mentioned. I didn't ask but got the impression he is still with last years beek. even though he had quality issues the last two years. His impression is that bee prices are falling.


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## ZZZnature

What a shame......what a terrible loss! Please update when you confirm.


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## LSPender

*Word on the street*

Update, The correct percentage is about 30 % empty, out, unrentable. This is from multiple truck loads. These bees where just put on trucks a few days prior in the east. I have this confirmed from multipe sources.

Also, bees in the valley already,( ie delevered in Nov. to CA) 15 to 20 % outs, which this is inline with my own experiance of hives that where in ID for summer. What I found was that the old queens became drone layers after a brief hybernation.

Larry


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## JBJ

*Hold the line, dont panic.*

Don't most growers carry crop insurance and have to use the required 2.5 or so hives per acre to satisfy their insurance requirements? Understandably if the bee supply was larger than demand there could be price cutting, however all the stats I have seen show a steady downward trend in the numbers of managed hives since the peak in the 1940s. According to Dr Burgett the numbers of managed hives has decreased by 60% since 1948. Has there really been that big of a spike in supply and a corresponding drop in demand? I would think that drought conditions in the Southern CA would make crop insurance all the more important. I hope beeks hold the line and do not cut their own throats.


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## alpha6

LS,

This doesn't surprise me. I help load a couple of trucks that had multiple beeks bees and some beeks hives were noticeably light going out to Cali. So light in fact that several of us mentioned it to the beeks saying we didn't think they would make it with no reserves and they wanted them shipped anyway. I am hoping that these guys hives made grade, but if they had no resources to tap into in Cali between Nov/Dec and now they are going to be hurting.


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## beemandan

alpha6 said:


> So light in fact that several of us mentioned it to the beeks saying we didn't think they would make it with no reserves and they wanted them shipped anyway.


 Its sometimes hard to understand some folks' business strategies. I suppose its a sort of Darwinian process at work...its just too bad that the bees have to pay the price for human foolhardiness.


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## jjgbee

*Price is crashing*

The roller coaster has left the gate. Heard first hand info today of offers for bees at under $95.00 and the grower is shopping for a better price. Said he would call back. 20,000 aussi packages landed at SFO today.


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## JBJ

*Say it aint so*

With prices in the toilet, those packages sound like a money losing proposition. How much are they going for these days? I thought word was out on the inferior pollination capabilities of a package compared to decent 8 frame hive? 

If they rent for way less than they cost, plus the expense of feed and labor and trucking the empty boxes to CA somebody could take a beating while adding to everybody else's problems.


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## Trevor Mansell

Ive heard that water shotages are causing some farms to take a year off ,and those bees are being shifted around ,wich is causing a glut of bees. Is there any truth to this?


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## suttonbeeman

From what I have heard in the last week there are alot of weak/deadouts and there will not be a huge oversupplu of GOOD BEES. Maybe a alot of extra beehives but not good beehives! Personally I would not ever go to CA without a contract. My bees are still inFlorida and I plan to ship Feb 6 unless season stays late and I may delay a week. My contract was signed in Oct at 152.00. If price drops to below 125 in the future I'll stay in Florida and make nucs/honey! Not worth the work/risk/loss of nucs/honey if any less $$.


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## Tom G. Laury

*On paper*

Just remember, everything is negotiable. You have an old, trusty client with whom you have dealt for many years and have a good relationship you would like to continue. You signed a contract for $150 last October. Now your old client is besieged with phone solicitation, newspaper ads , Blue Diamond rep, all offering quality bees at 30% less than the contract. He calls you up at this point in time, " Gee, Tom, your price seems a little high..." What are you going to do? Insist on 150 and alienate for next year? Walk away and try to sue? No, you RENEGOTIATE!


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## loggermike

Thats how I see it too.The almond growers are getting squeezed for real. Yes we are too.But you gotta look at the big picture. If I had one of those $170 contracts I heard about earlier,I would be real nervous right now!


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## beemandan

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28808767/
Coburn said he is abandoning tomatoes and will use his brackish well water to try to keep vineyards and almond orchards alive. Other growers are choosing instead to let their nut trees go dormant, which has meant less work for the beekeepers who travel to central California each year to pollinate orchards.


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## alpha6

Tom...remember when we talked about this in Dec last year...you could almost set a clock by your predictions. One post says there is a glut the other not enough; one says 170 the others 95...worse then Wall Street. :doh:

And the thing that most disturbs me is beeks working against other beeks. I believe Keith mentioned this before. There has GOT to be a better way...we are getting too few as it is and should be able to have our act together. With the packers working against us with imported honey, the package importers flooding the market with Aussie bees and who knows what other little surprises they are arriving with, and with beeks pitting against each other for pollination its a wonder any commercial beeks are left. People...we better get our act together.


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## JBJ

Very well put. Organizing beeks is probably akin to herding cats, but something needs to happen. It would be good for growers and beekeepers. Has there ever been or could there ever be a pollination co-op? Probably not possible since one bad apple can spoil the whole barrel, but there must be some mechanism to assure fair prices on both ends and an adequate supply without the risks associated with imported bees.


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## suttonbeeman

Tom....I dont disagree with you all togather.....but IF I SIGNED a contract for 152.00 then bees were very short(ie 2-3 yrs ago) and price went to 200.00 would the almond grower want to change the price and pay me more? If Diesel went to 10.00/gal....would he want to pay more?? I understand your position....a few year ago I purchased a semi load of honey for .70# (top price at that time) 6 weeks later when he was finished extracting and ready to ship price had gone to .96....and he wanted .96 since I had orders for honey and no other supply I had to pay it....but what if price had gone to .40.....would he have wanted to go down?? Thats why you sign a contract.....for a guarantee for goood bees at a given price...A person is only as good as his word.....if wants to get cheaper bees well they wont be mine!! and I wouldnt ask for a raise if they went higher! Thats just the way I do business! Next year I might be wiling to negociate a lower price...but I dont back out on contracts....no differance that if price went to 200 and I took bees to someone with more money....wouldnt be right!


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## Matt Beekman

Has there ever been or could there ever be a pollination co-op? 

Yes. My understanding is there are pollination cooperative(s) in France. What crops they sign contracts for and how many members I do not know. 

I was in an orchard yesterday and saw some white on the buds; which means bloom is not far away. Next week is going to be sunny and warm. I wouldn't be surprised to see bloom in the first week of Feb. 

On your mark......Get ready.........GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Allen Dick

As a guy with no dog in this fight, but quite a bit of interest in the phenomenon, I took a trip through almond pollination two years ago and looked into a lot of hives. 

I have to say that I saw everything from boomers to rows of virtual deadouts along my travels, all set in orchards or along the roads and presumably earning fees. Some of the best looking boxes had the worst bees 

The respected and well-known broker I visited was in the orchard with the manager and they were looking at bees and counting frames. There were no duds and some very big hives. That orchard got its money's worth and more, and the beekeeper came out with a fair fee and hives that were all splittable. 

The other orchards maybe paid the same, or a bit less, but if they got pollination, it was by luck, not good management, and maybe from bees visiting from the well-stocked orchards.

It is amazing to me that in spite of the missionary work done by people Like Joe Traynor, that there are still beekeepers and growers who think that somehow they can ignore the facts of life and not measure and charge or pay on the basis of performance. I suppose they deserve one another, but it is a shock to observe.

My guess is that the beekeeper with a long term contract and a good performance history and who has taken the time to educate his customer rather than fool him, should have a good enough relationship to work things out so both prosper. A deal is a deal, but then nobody can get blood from a stone.


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## jjgbee

*# 59 good post*

I worked with Joe for 25yrs and would split my bees directly out of Almonds and averaged over 100# honey in the first honey flow May 1 with the splits. Strong bees, unite weak colonies, less units moved, inspection and medication = max. income.


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## high rate of speed

Very well said Tom,sticking to your guns,unlike our society with no backbone.:applause::applause:


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## loggermike

There is always room to compromise .But a 30% cut from 150 would be $105. I would balk at that for good bees. But enforcing a contract through the courts is a hassle,to say the least.Did that once in another line of work, and after all the time wasted, lawyer involvement,even if you win, you will learn that most judgments are never collected on(I never got a penny).I learned that there are all kinds of ways to beat a judgment. 
One just has to gather as much information on the current situation as possible,then go from there. 
One thing,I agree with Larry that there are a LOT of bad bees in California right now.


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## MABee

Just a bit of info. Ad in Modesto Bee classified section stating: "Good strong vigorous hives of bees for rent $100." Strong or weak not the question. Beeks or nut sellers or clothes reatilers. If supply is up throat cutting starts. When an almond grower that is paying $150or up sees or hears this, they aren't going to be happy! With the average price of nuts around $1.15 a lb. an almond grower is looking to cut expense per acre any way they can. I sincerely wish all of you with contracts the best of luck! You have to have them, but...I'm with Loggermike, have dealt with the problem of contracts in another industry. Court is not where you want to end up. I've had more than one businessman tell me the only thing a contract is good for when times are bad is to wipe your _ss with!


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## Tom G. Laury

*The Main Thing*

Is to keep open lines of communication with your valued clients. When they don't return your calls it's already too late. 


Remember that party game the LIMBO???

Reset the bar!

How LOW can you GO?

Actually I haven't had to do any explaining or rolling back but like MA said when they see it in the paper you look like a crook!


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## JBJ

Almond growers cant do it without us, so why do beekeepers consistently cut their own throats? When greed and fear prevail the whole industry suffers.


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## jean-marc

*Greed and fear*

John: I'm not sure that greed is a big factor. By the sounds of it almond growers are getting squeezed and are in survival mode. I'm sure all the beekeepers without contracts are in fear mode and as an industry we are first class champions at cutting our own throats. I'd don't know what that is but I see it here on the other side of the border. Maybe it's something in the bee venom. I don't know if it will ever change. I'm trying here with a couple of other fellows to start a pollination group and at the first sign of competition others wanted to back our rates down. I thought it was premature as winter is not over by a long shot here and yet panick set in. 

It was interesting to hear Allen point of view on the shocking lack of strength in some hives. I keep telling my growers it's not luck that makes good hives ,although some years there is an element of luck. It's work , patties, syrup ,new queens , good honey flows. These are inputs carried by beekeepers. Generally the more inputs go into hives the better the colonies. Generally good hives are the result of good management and not luck. Some growers understand this and others cannot seem to understand this. It's not all that hard to figure out. I tell my growers that I charge a little more for my hives because I spend a lot more than the average beekeeper on my hives. Generally speaking they are better than most, and it'a not a coincidence.

Best of luck to everybody.

Jean-Marc


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## Keith Jarrett

J-M, well said


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## JBJ

Jean-Marc, While I agree with you fundamentally. When I referred to greed I was thinking of both beeks and growers. I have seen many it times on both sides of the coin.


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## jean-marc

John:

Well I haven't seen too much greed here on beekeepers part but I'm sure it exists. Unfortunately I've seen too much incompetence. So how about selling some of those fine looking queens of yours into Canada? I'd be glad to be your first customer.

Jean-Marc


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## JBJ

J-M I Have seen intentional undercutting to run other beekeepers out of certain pollinations.
I would love to send you some queens, but the bureaucratic hoops to jump through... I need some help there. I still wondering if I am going to get my bees rented in almonds this year.


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## jean-marc

John:

That kind of undercutting is truly hurtful, shortsighted. Hard to protect yourself from that behavior. So I take it then that you did not have a contract or are facing some stiff undercutting. Like others have mentioned contracts are not worth anything in these kinds of situations. I guess they spell out expectations of both parties to avoid suprises, but when undercutting takes place, guess what "Surprise" rears it's ugly head. Early in my beekeeping business I had such a surprise and decided that it was not worth pursuing. As pointed out in earlier posts you can't really win in such a situation. But I'd still like to try some of your queens. Can't say for sure but I bet Ian would like some too, provided I'm first of course.

Jean-Marcd


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## mbholl

*Be nice & supportive??*

Three different brokers we spoke with told us that several large beeks from Florida / east shipped their bees to Calif without contracts. They have agressively been undercutting prices and brokers lost their pollination spots on some farms; which in turn means the beek that was going to be there is out of luck. AND the price per hive is dropping.... 

Aussie packages, why not?? It's sounding like the wild, wild west out here - in a freefall!!

Have also heard rumors of very weak hives. The good looking 10 frames are now barely 4, trying to hang on. Don't know if this will be a factor in the next few weeks? Haven't heard of any large amounts of empty boxes, like last year.

Maybe the rain/mountain snow in the next few days will help?


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## BEES4U

*Three different brokers we spoke with told us that several large beeks from Florida*

FYI:
Staging areas are becoming less avaialble for the almonds.
Try this for some excitement--I know a man that has staged bees in the same area for over 20 years and guess who dropped a load of bees on his location? Now what do you do when you pull into your location to unload and it' occupied by some one else.
Ernie


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## loggermike

I think the water situation is a big problem. Shasta Lake is only 31% full.Growers are getting notified that they will not get the water they need. Also almonds are only moving at a low price.Most almonds are exported and the credit situation with other countries is having an effect. So growers are in survival mode as J-M pointed out.
There is a good chance that all this deflation is going to reverse in the coming months due to massive money printing by the Gov as they try to inflate their way out of this mess. So the money we do get is liable to be worth even less in the coming months.
Heavy rains in the mountains yesterday brought the creeks up.Looks like 7 to 10 days of dry weather ahead for the big move.


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## Keith Jarrett

mbholl said:


> Have also heard rumors of very weak hives. The good looking 10 frames are now barely 4, trying to hang on. QUOTE]
> 
> Well, it's the same sloppy keeping.
> 
> "I know Barry I'm beating my drum "
> 
> We are seeing 12-15 frame bees in our outfit.
> 
> Here's a six pound patty, look closely you will see the unfinish ring of the old patty due to the patty that was out side of the heat ring of the cluster.
> http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2837.jpg
> 
> Now we have a store bought patty, this is only five pounds and most will be out side the heat ring & won't be eaten for months,
> http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2838.jpg
> 
> the same hive feed, but two out comes.
> 
> A beesource member from Texas paid me a visit in the bee yard to see it for them selves, he said he grades bees for a bee broker, and has never seen 12 frame avg in the almomds.
> 
> Well he might chime in when he gets back to Texas.


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## Allen Dick

> Here's a six pound patty, look closely you will see the unfinish ring of the old patty due to the patty that was out side of the heat ring of the cluster. http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2837.jpg


Is it just me, or does it not look as if the hive has dwindled since eating the previous patty? Sure looks like the hive was much bigger in the past.



> Now we have a store bought patty, this is only five pounds and most will be out side the heat ring & won't be eaten for months,
> http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2838.jpg


You are predicting the future?



> the same hive feed, but two out comes.


Not sure what that means. Are you saying it is the same formula in both cases?

Anyhow, when I signed up for Beesource again recently, I read the terms of participation and seem to recall rules against spamming and thread hyjacking. Was I mistaken?

Back to the topic under discussion: I should also mention that in the case of most of the many many almost dead hives I saw in my travels mentioned above, from the look of the comb, there had not been large colonies in those boxes for months. I wonder if anyone, beekeeper or grower had even bothered to look or had just counted the boxes.

When bees are in short supply, growers have to take anything they can get, but when bees are in surplus, it is payback time, and growers can be selective. 

I suppose, tbough, that some growers will continue with the beekeepers they have used in the past. This is particularly the case of absentee owners with managers who are underpaid.


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## Keith Jarrett

allend said:


> Is it just me, or does it not look as if the hive has dwindled since eating the previous patty? Sure looks like the hive was much bigger in the past..


Well allen, here is a pick before they have been smoked.

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2832.jpg


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## irwin harlton

*What, Which growth hormone using ,*

Keith,What,Which growth hormone are you using,......awsome colonies


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## Tom G. Laury

*Too many bees*

Aren't those things a threat to public safety? Seems there should be some kind of ordinance to address this problem.


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## loggermike

LOL.They do look over the legal limit.Got an MCP for those bees?


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## alpha6

Nice colonies Keith. I haven't seen bare ground or green on trees other then evergreens for almost three months...


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## TwT

I wouldn't want to go out there to the almonds, sounds like price cuts are there and with the water shortage also making it worst, looks like prices spiked the last few year drawing a lot of beekeepers out there, I think it will be a matter of survival for local guys, price will probably drop this year and the next and maybe after that but once it gets to where its not worth traveling cross country the price will probably go up again! like some one said already the roller coaster has started (up and down)! hope I am wrong for everyone's sake!!! my philosophy is to stay in Ga and sale nuc's and queens  and maybe do a little pollinating here  but a lot easier working here at the house than traveling bee's.


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## rainesridgefarm

*water needed*

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28808767/


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## alpha6

mbholl said:


> Three different brokers we spoke with told us that several large beeks from Florida / east shipped their bees to Calif without contracts. They have agressively been undercutting prices and brokers lost their pollination spots on some farms; which in turn means the beek that was going to be there is out of luck. AND the price per hive is dropping....


Not sure where you are getting your info. I spoke to two brokers and nothing has changed with their contracts or placements with the growers they deal with. The only thing they talked about was the number of weak or dead hives (20% +) but they had planned for that.

I suspect that anyone canceling a contract with a broker or someone they have done long term business with is taking a risk of not having bees in the future. And I am still wondering how anyone would ship bees from Fl. without a contract and expect to make money. The shipping alone would be expensive and the loss from the stress of the trip on the hives would wipe out any profit made. I can understand guys in the northern climates shipping to Calf. and breaking even just to mitigate winter losses but Fl. doesn't have the harsh winters so what would be the point. :scratch:


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## Tom G. Laury

*The Point*

is cash flow. And with all the new trucks, loaders,boxes,new outfits,rebuilt outfits, you gotta have it; cash flow. BUT the source of cash has dried up! The almond handlers are delaying and reducing pool payments: their source of cash has dried up! Farmers are trying to justify a budget but if no credit available for op expenses they will have trouble paying bills! So all these desperados are just compounding an already shaky situation.


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## alpha6

Tom, I think you are right on. I read where some banks are holding credit on the almond growers waiting to see how much water is going to be allotted to them. Talk about a rock and a hard place. I would think that this is where long term relationships would pay off. I would delay payment for the grower in this kind of circumstance...but then again I don't run an operation that would go under without immediate payment. 

And speaking of an already shaky situation...are you Calf. guys seeing any influence of Africanized bees from southern hives in your neck of the woods?


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## Tom G. Laury

*Alpha 6*

Hey! You should get out of the cabin and come see some color in a few weeks!

Africanized influence: My own & local bees you don't see any BUT they come in by the truckloads for almond pollination. They are very very aggressive although the farmer is usually happy because they fly a lot. By the time bloom is over they have built up and are not pleasant to disturb in any way, let alone filling a semi and having someone up to spread nets. So what we do is move them in the middle of the day. This tames them down enough to be workable.


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## alpha6

*Next year...*

Next year amigo...you can count on it. Still bummed I missed the piglet roast. Maybe I'll bring you a couple of elk steaks to go along with it if I nab one in the fall.


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## Angi_H

Alpha6, With all of the swarms and cutouts I did this last year I have not seen any AFHB in our area. I was in tulare county, Kings county, and Fresno county and everyone I have done have been very calm and good natured. One hive I had cut out of a garage wall had been there for 20 years that hive was huge. Tons of bees and very very gentle. My kids were running around with the bees not doing a thing to them and we were cutting them out of a wall. Anyway I have not seen any. But have been near some that have come in with pollination trucks from southern states and they are not nice at all. Thankfully I have not seen any and hope I dont in the near future. As not to long from now in a few months starts the swarm season.


Angi


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## chadraglnad

I've still have 400 8 frame min sitting in the valley.... grower are really cutting back when they should be putting bees heavy. West side acreage hit and miss, excess bees are likely to sit. Just my two cents. If you know of any keepers who need a few extra to complete contract please contact me.


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## JBJ

Join the club.


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## high rate of speed

4000 THOUSAND that is known of in sac. county 75000 total......Everything is peaches and cream.:applause:Big chat and no contracts effected alot.Besides the water and the economy:doh::doh:


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## JBJ

At least my girls are still sitting in the back 40, but I could be there in hours, picked up a small fill in so far.


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## Matt Beekman

FYI:

http://www.cfbf.com/agalert/AgAlertStory.cfm?ID=1220&ck=B24D516BB65A5A58079F0F3526C87C57


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## beebze

I'm in that club of having extra bees, from what I know it's a big club. At least I have a little over half rented. The rest will stay home unless for some chance they will be rented. I just wintered better this year then previous years. It also helped that I changed the way I did things this fall. 

A few bees are being snatched up. I won't give up hope until around the 18th.

Andy


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## BEES4U

*It also helped that I changed the way I did things this fall.*

Andy,
Can you explain what you did that was different in your fall management.
Thank you,
Ernie


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## alpha6

He put tops on his hives...keeps the snow out.


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## BEES4U

*He put tops on his hives*

I am sure that he has those funky eastern telescoping style. LOL
Ok, he has covers on the hive. Now, back to the original ?
Ernie


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## lake thompson honey

i am hearing that lots of hives could be going unrented. i have heard it referred to as a trainwreck. panic, price slashing, water shortages. feel fortunate that i got all mine in even after losing my original deal.


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## alpha6

I'm not hearing anything like that except here. Talking to the brokers this week they have finished or near finished grading...prices are agreed on and they are placing them in groves starting next week.


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## JohnK and Sheri

alpha6 said:


> Talking to the brokers this week they have finished or near finished grading...prices are agreed on and they are placing them in groves starting next week.


This is what we are hearing also. Grading mostly done, prices agreed on, bees going in next week. Our broker is hearing rumors of some bees (boxes?) sitting, some scrambling of unrented colonies, but contracts seem to be holding. Growers mostly not willing to gamble on the unknown and untested. Keeping our fingers crossed things continue as planned but we are sleeping well at night.
Sheri


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## BEES4U

*Rental cutting*

In case you do not know it there is a glut of 10 to 12 frames of bees going at $85.00.

Regards,
Ernie


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## Nick Noyes

I would like to see names and phone numbers of guys renting 10 and 12 frame(covered with live bees) hives for $85.


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## MABee

Ad in Modesto Bee for 3000 hives at $75 per hive! Area code 701.


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## JBJ

That would be laughable if it were not so tragic. Maybe it will permanently run some beeks out of the market. That ought to make next year more interesting.

The demand curve for pollination should be relatively inelastic, but if folks are willing to give there services away that is a moot point.


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## alpha6

MABee said:


> Ad in Modesto Bee for 3000 hives at $75 per hive! Area code 701.


North Dakota area code. Wonder if the bees are still in ND or already in Calf. with no contracts? Who would ship 3000 bees with no contract? :scratch: If that was the case then I bet they are just trying to recover their shipping at this point. Great way to do business and put it to your fellow Beeks at the same time.


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## BEES4U

*would like to see names and phone numbers*

The names and phone numbers will emerge.
Ernie


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## Nick Noyes

We are a little long on hives this year. We wintered better than expected which is a good problem. The extras won't be rented for $75 they will sit before they go in at that price.


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## RDY-B

MABee said:


> Ad in Modesto Bee for 3000 hives at $75 per hive! Area code 701.


http://dwb.modbee.com/classified/farmandlivestock/bees/
:s:s:sRDY-B


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## Keith Jarrett

Nick Noyes said:


> We are a little long on hives this year. We wintered better than expected which is a good problem. The extras won't be rented for $75 they will sit before they go in at that price.


Now that was well said.


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## MABee

*Rdy bee*

Look in livestock section. Runs right below the bee section in the actual paper ads. "BEEHIVES ALMOND POLLINATION, 3000 beehives for rent for almond pollination $75.00 per hive call with any questions 701-260-0646"


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## RDY-B

http://dwb.modbee.com/classified/farmandlivestock/livestock/  RDY-B


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## Keith Jarrett

The sad fact is that he a close bee friend of mine.


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## RDY-B

Keith Jarrett said:


> The sad fact is that he a close bee friend of mine.


with that being said -what kind of shape are his bees in-hope they didnt get secret recipe- RDY-B


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## Keith Jarrett

RDY-B said:


> hope they didnt get secret recipe- RDY-B


Why's that?


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## RDY-B

because if the hives are big then it just compounds the lose-half price for big bees -maybe he can get some citrus honey if paramont will let him-sad just scratches the surface-RDY-B


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## jean-marc

Keith:

I'm kinda wondering about your friend. What circumstances were set in motion that he is without a contract 10 days/2 weeks before the job starts? If he's from Minnesota he's probably done pollination before. Did his previous grower decide to forgo bees on account of water rationing? 

Jean-Marc


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