# bees eating antifreeze???



## ainsof (Dec 27, 2005)

eeewww... Ethylene glycol flavored honey.

Don't remember what it tastes like, but it does have a sweet smell to it. 

Can't imagine the stuff wouldn't kill them before they got back to the hive; but makes sense eliminating the problem before it occurs as you have.


----------



## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

I don't think it tastes bad. Tastes much better that hot motor oil or gasoline. Diesel fuel tastes even worse.

AHH, the life of a shadetree mechanic.


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

It'll sure do dogs in. A guy I used to work with had his two dogs die at the vet's office after they lapped up some anti-freeze they came across. 

When I worked in the aviation trade, if it was snowing, we sprayed aircraft wings with hot water and glycol before they left the gate. Usually in a snow storm the wind is also blowing and that sweetly flavored stuff was always in your face.

[ July 26, 2006, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]


----------



## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

""AHH, the life of a shadetree mechanic.""


----------



## Ruben (Feb 11, 2006)

I have been an auto technician for 20 years and it will kill them, it actually tastes very sweet which is why all animals will drink it up.

Maybe they were trying just keep the hive from freezing this winter


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

years ago there was a big stink about some wine maker in europe adding it to wine to sweeten it
a quick google found this

http://www.foodreference.com/html/art-wine-frauds.html 

"In 1985, Austrian wine scandal caused damage in the millions of dollars. A winemaker added ethylene glycol to his wine to upgrade it from regular to table wine. The ensuing world wide adverse publicity cost the Austrian wine industry untold millions in export losses."

it's very sweet and dangerous around animals who will lap it up
never leave it out after working on your car if you like your dog

Dave

[ July 26, 2006, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


----------



## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

Ok, but none of you seem to understand why it kills dogs. It crystalizes in the kidneys and blocks the tracts that eliminate the waste from the blood. 

Do bees have kidneys?
Do they metabolize E-glycol the same as mammals?
Maybe it does kill them, just differently. 
Honestly I've not tested so I don't know. 

Do you know that there is a "safer" p-glycol that is more environmentally friendly and 'supposed' to be non-toxic to animals. (ex. brand name: Sierra)

It is possible that the bees consume P-glycol and not have toxic honey (by no means organic, but perhaps not toxic). 

I would have resolved the problem the same way, dispose of suspected carriers and wash it away. 

Just for the record - for anyone that has a pet that ingestes anti-freeze, you can minimize the effects by giving your pet alcohol liquor like vodka or tequila to interrupt the cystalization process. This does not always work, but the closer to the time it happens and the more willing your pet is to accept the treatment the better. 

This is not a replacement for good medical care, you should always seek the advice of a doctor when poisoning occurs.


----------



## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

I have seen three or four cells in the brood chamber with a bright fluorescent green substance in the bottom. Never thought of antifreeze. I always thought the bees foraged on some kid's popsicle or slushy drink.

BTW, I have heard that there have been several attempts to force anti-freeze producers to put in a bittering agent which would probably save a lot of pets -- and children -- by making anti-freeze taste bad. Apparently it only adds about 3 cents per gallon, so I'm not sure why it hasn't happened.

[ July 27, 2006, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: GaSteve ]


----------



## Budster (Mar 24, 2006)

I've worked on cars many years. I've had antifreeze drip into my mouth more times than I can count. It is very sweet. I would figure that the bees like the sweetness.


----------



## David Stewart (Jan 22, 2005)

Always one for a little scientific experiment it kind of makes me wish I had a one or two frame observation hive........

P.S. Like others, I've had it drip in my mouth on many occasions and can attest to the sweetness.


----------



## cphilip (May 25, 2006)

...removed double post....

[ July 29, 2006, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: cphilip ]


----------



## cphilip (May 25, 2006)

Well yes it does crystalize in the kidneys but it has some other toxic effects. Acidosis and affects the heart as well. Some other side effects like narcosis and such. It is not a "Highly Toxic" material. Takes a pretty good dose. Its certainly not something you want to drink. Of the animals I had seen ingesting enough to kill them they drank all they could. The person had no idea it would kill them and I estimate they drank as much as a half to a full gallon. Large dogs these were. A lap or two is probably not going to kill a larger dog. Or even make him appear sick. But its nasty to watch if one is in a comma and convulsing and you can't get him stable he dies a fairly horrible death. I have seen a few. 

There are several treatment regimes to try and disolve those crystals but often the patient is presented too late for them to work. Oddly enough the infusion of Straight Ethanol Grain Alcohol is one of them. Peritoneal Lavage (washing and drawing off) of massive normal Saline fluids is also one part of that. But at that stage often heart damage and even Liver damage has occured. But often the primary cause of death is indeed renal toxicity but one wonders how much other damage is already done by that time to other organs. 

The main reason Propylene glycol is not widely used is that its more expensive. Its not completely non toxic either. Just very very low. Would take more than you probably could ingest to cause a problem. So its relatively safe. Recognized as safe in small amounts so its approved for chillers around food stuffs. 

They already put green and so forth dye into Ethelene Glycol so you can see it. But it would be difficult to overcome the sweetness of it with much of anything. Responsible people don't drain it out on the ground were an animal can get. Although not a RCRA Hazardous Waste its still a viloation of the Clean Water Act and the Polution Prevention act to discharge it and not recycle it. 

Interestingly enough the cost of Propylene Glycol may be driven down with a rise of production of BioDiesel. One of the by products of that is Glycerin and that can be made into Propylene Glycol fairly readily. And since its a product that is a problem to deal with when you make BioDiesel it would be really nice to see it used for something like that. 

There of course has to be a design of the entire system to really use it. But thats easily overcome.

[ July 27, 2006, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: cphilip ]


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

there are different versions of glycol. some are toxic; some are not. polyethylene glycol is the version that was used a couple of decades ago as an ingredient in dr pepper.


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>BTW, I have heard that there have been several attempts to force anti-freeze producers to put in a bittering agent which would probably save a lot of pets -- and children -- by making anti-freeze taste bad. Apparently it only adds about 3 cents per gallon, so I'm not sure why it hasn't happened.

Apparently this has happened here,but I admit I dont want to taste it to be sure.But it seems a logical thing to do.


http://democrats.sen.ca.gov/senator/simitian/press/p212003053.htm


----------

