# Foundationless



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I've tried it some. It's fascinating to see how quickly the bees can build comb and fill it with honey during a honeyflow, new and freestyle comb looks beautiful and amazing. But I prefer my brood combs be built on PF-120 frames or with the PF-120 foundation cut out and installed in wooden frames because the rigid plastic foundation is so amazingly durable and the PF-120 cell pattern is nearly small cell sized, then if wax moths ever make a mess, you can just scrape them down to the rigid plastic core and soon have nice new comb again.

I plan to use foundationless again this season as a way to harvest some wax and honey by "crush and strain".


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## Barry Tolson (May 26, 2004)

I've been doing it...really like it. Also did crush and strain and cut some comb honey last year...liked the results from that, as well. Foundationless worked best for me when placing empty frames between good fully drawn frames.


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

Started one of my hives out foundationless. It's been doing well, I like it. My technique is natural comb in the brood box, and crimp wire w/some foundationless (for cut comb) in my honey supers.

Saves a bundle on shipping!

-Nathanael


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## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

pauvil said:


> I'm wondering how many of you are doing this?.


I do it in all but one of my hives (that hive is on HoneySuperCell). Works fine. Only drawback is that you may find that packages sometimes start out with a bunch of drone comb. I have my own wild theories on why that is but it's no deal breaker. Let them draw some drones and they'll get it out of their system and produce the workers you want. 

You do need to be careful handling the frames until the wax hardens and is attached on all sides. It will jiggle and sway and collapse. Also, make sure your hives are level. Otherwise you can get some really oddly angled comb. 

The bees draw the foundationless frames easier in my limited experience. Foundation gives them a 4mm advantage in drawing out the cells but that doesn't deter the bees from drawing the starter strips or foundationless frames first.


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## suprstakr (Feb 10, 2006)

Got 7 hives and all with starter strips . Crush and strain is my method it's easy and I like it.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I do it with just a 45 degree cut on the top bar. Using anything with a cell imprint would be called starter strips instead of foundationless in my vocabulary. I also extract mine. New comb filled with honey is fragile as noted, but it hardens pretty quickly. Attachment on at least 3 sides is necessary to extract in most cases. Also, I'm all mediums, I haven't tried to extract fulls.


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## golddust-twins (Sep 8, 2007)

I'm trying it this year. Just last week I added a medium with foundationless frames--I made starter strips by cutting paper and dipping into beeswax a couple of times and adhering it to the groved frametops with melted beeswax. Hope it works. I noticed chewed paper in the bottom of the hive's SBB this morn. The weather is a little cool to open the hive and check to see what it looks like. This weekend should be a little warmer so I can take a quick peek.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Foundationless here too.


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

Ross said:


> I also extract mine. New comb filled with honey is fragile as noted, but it hardens pretty quickly. Attachment on at least 3 sides is necessary to extract in most cases. Also, I'm all mediums, I haven't tried to extract fulls.


I was thinking not using foundation in the honey supers in my new hives (I'm cheap, and I don't like working with foundation), but want to extract. Do you use a radial or standard extractor, hand or motor?

-Nathanael


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## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

I extract mine - radial extractor (only extract mediums).


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## buzzinjack (May 4, 2007)

I intend to add 45degree strips on some of my medium frames to encourage them to draw foundationless. Would the frames be stronger drawn out if there were strips on the sides also? I plan to alternate between frames with foundation.


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## kbee (Mar 6, 2005)

I started with wax foundation. Then went to starter strips and now use foundationless frames. I take the wedge turn it perpendicular and staple it in. Then run a peice of beeswax along the edge. I don't know if the wax is necessary but I do it anyway. I have new swarms draw it out and they do it well. As mentioned it is quite fragile until it is attached on three sides, Especially when full of brood or honey. I use wired foundation in all honey supers.


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## shawnwri (Jul 31, 2006)

I've done some. I like it because I am frugal (AKA cheap).


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I started because it was cheaper, but now I think my bees are healthier as well. I'm about 5 years in now with no treatments other than a couple of OA treatments several years ago. I never did mite counts so I don't know if those were waranted or not. The only losses I have had have been hives going queenless late in the year, and only a couple of those. Certainly no proof, but I like it.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

I like foundationless fine in the brood area, but as soon as they start putting up significant honey stores you get alot of comb that is way to big and in other ways useless for brood rearing. They also move up to added boxes slower with foundationless, even when moving 'bait comb' up. I did a side by side comparison on this. In the future, I'll probably sometimes use some foundationless early in the year in the brood box, but when its time to add honey supers, I will use foundation.


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## pauvil (Jan 28, 2008)

Thank you soo much for all your replies, I will be using starter strips and see how it goes. From what I've heard here it should work fine.

Thanks again!!


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I haven't seen them slower to move up at all. If the hive is strong enough to need space, they seem to move up and start drawing just fine. If there isn't much flow (summer) they don't draw either one, and the foundation just sags or gets chewed up. Either way, I like my empty frames.


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## pauvil (Jan 28, 2008)

Ross, are you saying that just a 45 degree cut should start them going, no wax or anyhting on the frame?


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

pauvil said:


> Ross, are you saying that just a 45 degree cut should start them going, no wax or anything on the frame?


That's similar to what I've been doing when I start a foundationless (deep)frame. I've added a triangular piece to the top bar... like a 45 degree corner cut off the long side of some 1x stock, resulting in a piece the length of a frame with a 3/4" right triangle cross section... mounted with the hypotenuse to the top bar. No wax, nothin'. Easy. Put between 2 drawn frames, I've had good results.


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## pauvil (Jan 28, 2008)

I guess on a brand new hive I should start with at least starter strips on some frames?? what do you think?? can you start a brand new hive foundationless??


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

pauvil said:


> can you start a brand new hive foundationless??


Completely. Feral colonies do it all the time. Your packages/swarms/splits will do the same. I've also found feeding 1(sugar)/2(water) syrup vigorously helps speed up the process. Give it a shot, and save yourself the cost of foundation!

-Nathanael


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

Try it! 

Something I've heard, but have not experienced: If the bees start buiilding comb at an angle to the frames (as opposed to nicely aligned in the frames), you should rotate the entire hive such that the direction they want to build the comb matches the direction you want them to build it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Ross, are you saying that just a 45 degree cut should start them going, no wax or anyhting on the frame?

I'm not Ross. But yes. That has been the standard method of getting comb in a frame without foundation since the mid 1800's.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Hobie said:


> Try it!
> 
> Something I've heard, but have not experienced: If the bees start buiilding comb at an angle to the frames (as opposed to nicely aligned in the frames), you should rotate the entire hive such that the direction they want to build the comb matches the direction you want them to build it.


I had one hive drawing across frames last spring. Turning the hive did the trick. 

You don't need starter strips, cutting the top bar into a triangle works well. I have also tried just rubbing some bees wax on the top bar and my bees tended to hang two combs on each frame. They like drawing down off a sharp edge.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

What he said  I learned it from Michael. Here's how I do it. I no longer bother to glue in the triangle. Rip one side at 45 and break the wedge out of the other side. You can mold the comb back onto the bar and they will usually respect it.
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/sled1.jpg
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/sled2.jpg
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/sled4.jpg
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/sled5.jpg
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/frameb.jpg


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## pauvil (Jan 28, 2008)

Sorry about the Ross thing Mike, thanks for all your help guys, I'm gonna give it a shot!


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Now that you posted the pictures Ross, I am pretty sure those are the same pictures that gave me the idea last spring to start doing it this way.

See it all filters down from MB


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## panubee (Nov 16, 2007)

*Foudationless*

I like another idea that Michael Bush suggested on his website. Just put an empty frame between two drawn frames. It's a lot less work! 

Mike


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

And of course don't start with too much space; keep it manageable. A couple straight combs will give them a guide. 

I tried crush and strain with a cutout in Dec. and it was a disaster; never drained free. I crushed the heck outta the comb too. It turned into one big crystallized block. I had it sitting in a hothouse (er, actually a trash can upended over a heat vent). Maybe it was all a honey that just crystallizes hard and fast ?


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

It was probably just the honey. December isn't the best time to try it either.


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