# Mating nucs on a large scale



## Jaseemtp

why not give the 5 frame nucs a shot? I know you said you wanted standard frames, but wouldnt a 5 medium frame nuc be a more fitting size? One word though is I would not use the plywood ones if you wanted to keep using them. I made many of them and the lids warped quickly, it did not seem to make a difference if I painted them or not. Just thoughts from a newbee


----------



## rrussell6870

How about wintering 50 or so 8 frame singles, then catch the queens early, slide in one partition to make them into 2 nucs, plant cells, then on the next catch you can either remove the partition if one side needs help, or move the partition and add another to make 3-2 frame nucs (as it warms up), plant cells and by that time the singles coming out of the almonds should be selling cheap... so you could purchase some of those and continue growing... this is a good way for people to start small with something that can be easily adjusted to keep them going... Hope it helps!


----------



## Oldtimer

Yes, if you need to raise all the queens early, in one hit, you'll either need more hives, or go baby nucs. What time frame do you have to produce them?

Here's a pic of the full frame nucs I'm using now. The box is divided into 3 nucs of 3 frames each, by two bits of hardboard slid down grooves cut into the box before it was nailed up. Can't bang out a whole lot of queens as fast and efficiently as a bunch of baby nucs but it's standard gear.

These are 3 frame nucs, to set them up needs one frame of brood + bees in each plus whatever other combs you have, and feed if needed. If you wintered 50 two box hives, you could hold 10 of them for cell raising or whatever, and the other 40 hives could be broken down into 80 of these nuc boxes, or 240 nucs. 2 cell cycles should give you all the queens you need, and the beauty of these type of nucs is, as per RRussell, once you have all the queens you need you just pull the dividers and make them back into hives. From that perspective, they are more efficient than baby nucs.

Couple of things I've found helpful with these type of nucs, paint randon shapes on them to help the young queens find the right hive, and don't put them in rows, too much drift. Paint numbers on top of the lids which helps not to miss any when you are working them, just go through them in order. 80 of these can easily go in just one site, long as they are spread out a bit to prevent drift.


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

What would be a good way to do the slats without cutting the box?
Also, I have had really bad takes with queen castles...what can I do to improve the take?
Mike


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

I just need to eval and see what i need to do. Leaning towards 100-150 5 frame nucs and giving them a frame of brood each, and the rest foundation, mate the queen on there, cage her and then re-cell, those would then be my increase hives. 
mike


----------



## deknow

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> What would be a good way to do the slats without cutting the box?


A friend of mine has been stapling strips of masonite inside the box to hold the slats. If you cut grooves and remove the slats, the bees will fill with propolis...with the strips, you can pry the strips off.



> ...what can I do to improve the take?


How well stocked with bees are the queen castles? I do much worse when I try to stretch things.

deknow


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

Frame of brood, frame of food.
mike


----------



## deknow

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> Frame of brood, frame of food.


Raising queens is like dancing...I'd add a little shake 

deknow


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

Of course, that is a given.
One thing is that those 2 framers are hard to shake into 
Mike


----------



## Oldtimer

Kingfisher I'm wondering if some other factor was at work with your poor takes, with those nucs pictured and using cells raised using the cut cell method I'm getting 90% + mating.

They don't propolise the grooves in them when I pull the dividers, the only propolis is along the edge of the groove when the dividers are in.

Agree with DeKnow about the shake. If the nucs are getting weak, you add some bees just after the queen is mated so she is able to lay a larger area, when doing this commercially we used to wet down 8lbs of bees at a time, and walk along with a 4 gallon tin of bees and a scoop, and the other guy lifting and replacing lids, put a scoop in each nuc as required. If your 2 framers are hard to drop the bees into, try dumping them on the front door step. Long as the new bees have been queenless for at least several hours they will go in and it will work out fine.

If you go 5 framers it will certainly give you stable nucs. Be aware though, the bigger the nucs, the longer it takes to find each queen at caging time.


----------



## Joseph Clemens

I have a few hundred left-over medium depth super sides, these were gifted by a beekeeper friend, the ends had been damaged and unusable.

I began converting them into mating nuc condo's (four compartments of three medium frames, each). The bottom is screened, they are partitioned with 1/8" thick pressed board, they each have 7/8" diameter entrance holes. I add guide rails to align the frames. Each partition rises 1/4" above the frames making it possible to slide individual covers of pressed board to keep each one isolated from the others. I made three to try them out -- so far they have been 12 for 12. Even though the three have all been in a row on a single nuc stand, all the virgins appeared to have no trouble returning to their own compartments.


----------



## David LaFerney

Just a beginner, but I'm using the afore mentioned 2x4s in 8 frame mediums. Coreplast or screen stapled to the bottoms and 1 1/8" holes (plugable with bottle caps) for entrances. Feed through matching holes in the outer cover. Stocked with a frame of brood and one of food as you say. While they are queenright I pretty much have to remove at least one frame of brood/bees a week to keep them from getting too strong. 

The thing is my mating success is only about 50%, but I have them lined up like government houses which I know is not best.

Something simpler to make would actually be good. I'm working on that.


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

That looks good. The funny thing about the queen castles is that they take in every other one...I.E. spaces 1 and 3 take but 2 and 4 do not. GRRR. 
This leads to another question....Deep or medium in nucs? I run all deeps for brood.
mike


----------



## David LaFerney

I just use mediums for everything. And by the way, I have entrance holes at both ends of each individual nuc - only one open at a time of course. Some I have both entrances on the same end, and some on alternate ends. So far I haven't really seen a pattern of one being better than the other. So far.

Think these will winter with another story on top if I keep them fed?


----------



## Joseph Clemens

In my four-way mating condo's, I cut two entrances on one side, #2 high, and #4 low, then on the opposite side I cut #3 high and #1 low. They all start as bare wood, then I put a little bit of different colored paint around each entrance. I have dozens of different oops paint. Can't beat $1 for a quart of otherwise top quality paint.

My mating nucs are all beneath a large Mesquite tree. Where the sun could reach under the tree I have walls of tan shade cloth. One side of my condo mating nucs face the wall of shade cloth, and must exit up and through the tree branches, the other side of the mating nucs faces into the interior of this "compound".


----------



## David LaFerney

Joseph -

So are those 2 frame nucs then? Any pictures?


----------



## Joseph Clemens

Nope, they are 3-frame, four compartment, medium depth. I once made a couple of 2-frame condo nucs and didn't like how they performed. I make these from four super side panels, I have no super ends. I cut the pins on two of the side panels short and cut the pins on the other two, shallow - so when assembled I have a perfectly square super (enough room for four 3-frame partitions).

I will post some photos, tomorrow.


----------



## timgoodin

I really like the idea of dividing a deep box down the middle and making two 5 frame nucs from it. I have not yet tried it but may see what I can get together tomorrow. I attended a local bee club meeting this spring and most all the members were very much against using this technique. Their arguement was that one of the queens will attract most of the bees to one side and the other side will end up with no population. They said it had something to do with the phermone of two queens in the same box. There was a "qualification" on their statements, that it could be done but I would get better take with two single nuc boxes vs 1 deep divided into two. Anybody have an opinion on this?

Thanks

Tim


----------



## David LaFerney

I don't see that at all with my double 4s. As a matter of fact in a case of one side being much stronger than the other I've equalized them by turning the box around and swapping the stoppers from one end to the other so that foragers from the strong side will go into the other. Maybe I haven't paid enough attention.

I know for a sure fact that if both sides have laying queens you have to keep an eye on them or both sides will be over flowing with bees once they get rolling.

I know that there is some drift going on, but the main factor seems to me to be the presence of brood - once all of the initial brood has mostly emerged if it doesn't have a queen it will dwindle pretty fast.


----------



## Joseph Clemens

Here are the promised photos:


----------



## David LaFerney

I have a few questions - I know you have good success and have a lot of experience:

When you start the season how do you stock them? 

Once they have a mated queen how long do you keep them in the nucs?

I need to go through my 4 frame mediums about once a week to keep some of them from getting too strong - which is a good thing as far as the drawn comb and brood that they are producing, but I don't really want to do it much more often. Do you have to manage these very much more than that?

Do you ever feed them? If so, how?

Sorry, but no need to re-invent the wheel when someone else already has. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Joseph Clemens

When you start the season how do you stock them? I start them with one frame of honey/pollen/bees and a second frame of emerging brood/bees (or if that's short - sealed brood/bees) - I mark with a white thumbtack. I wait overnight, then insert a ripe queen cell near the top-center of the inner side of the brood frame - then I place a colored thumbtack (the color I've chosen for that mother queen) on the far side of the white thumbtack. A day after the virgins should have emerged, I check them to be sure (once in awhile a virgin is deformed - I remove those and replace with another queen cell) - if the nuc now has a viable virgin I move the white thumbtack to the opposite side of the colored thumbtack. Once the virgins have mated and start laying I add the third frame, either empty comb or empty foundationless frame depending on the strength of each nuc.

Once they have a mated queen how long do you keep them in the nucs? I keep the queens in their nucs until they are needed. It is self-explanatory some of what needs done with them, some few turn out to be drone-layers, have poor patterns, or their bees insist on superseding them. The first two I simply remove and demote to white thumbtack, next day install fresh queen cell and appropriate colored thumbtack. Those with supersedure cells I either let alone (if they're strong enough to grow good queen cells) or remove the unwanted queen and replace next day with another cultured queen cell. Nucs are a fine source of resources for many other bee purposes.

Some nucs are sold, some are used to requeen full-size hives that can benefit from this service. I use 3-frame mating nucs to start 5-frame nucs, some 5-frame nucs get a second level, making them 10-frame nucs. Some 5-frame nucs are used to start new full-size hives.

Do you have to manage these very much more than that (once per week)? It is hard to say, since I am otherwise retired and spend whatever time I think necessary to accomplish what I want to do, such as redistribute resources wherever I think the resources should be, whenever.

Do you ever feed them? If so, how? When I have combs of honey/pollen, I use them for feeding. Between flows, when I don't have frames of honey/pollen, I spray sugar syrup into empty combs (usually ones that are already in the nuc) and feed with pollen substitute patties on the top bars.

-----------------------------------
The above is what has been working for me -- each year I build more equipment and expand my operation just a little bit more. If I were more ambitious I believe I could easily expand more quickly. I only keep one hive and one nuc with deep frames -- for me, deep frames are quite annoying - having many cons and few pros, especially here in the desert.


----------



## David LaFerney

Thanks for being so helpful. I've patterned my cell starter after your queenless 5 frame medium, and it turns out that my mating nucs and managment are a lot like yours too. I think it is a good system for me, but I can see I still have a lot to learn. Tips from you and the other experienced guys on here are priceless. It would probably take years to figure this out on my own. If ever.


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

So what if one does not have a bunch of medium frames in early march and needs to start a bunch of nucs? Bulk bees? I am leaning towards Josephs design.
mike


----------



## LtlWilli

Mull it over some, and if you're still leaning towards Joseph's design, go with it with all the skill and knowklledge you possess. You are no beginner, so pick a way and go at it strong. ...You'll come thru. Think big.
Willi


----------



## Jaseemtp

I like Josephs idea, but Im already running mediums. If I was running deeps then I would try it out with what I had first, that way you could try to avoid extra expense of getting new gear. I would do my best to keep it simple and keep things interchangable. Mike the plans I posted on ETBAs site could easily be converted over to the three frame mating nucs. You would just need to drill entrances on oposite ends.


----------



## jean-marc

I would run mini nucs. You don't have a lot of hives, so you don't have the resources to make a bunch of nucs on Dadant or standard frames. One standard frame well stocked with bees will provide enough bees for about 2.5 mini nucs. I have a few of the Apidea ones. Mann Lake sells those. 2 shakes from each of your 50 hives and you'll have stocked 250 mini nucs. Do 2 rounds then you'll have your 300-400 queens. It'll will be the fastest, easiest and cheapest in the long run. They are very easy to stock, lightweight. You'll get better returns with individual nucs than you do with individual boxes that are divided into 2, 3 or 4 compartments.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Joseph Clemens

If I didn't have the combs, and bees, I think I'd place a pound of package/bulk bees per compartment, soak the top fiberboard covers with paraffin (to keep them from getting wet and swelling, then cut a hole in them for placing jar feeders. Put a ripe queen cell with the bees and use all three frames (perhaps foundationless, maybe with PF120's, or even beeswax foundation). Don't forget a small pollen substitute patty on top of the frames.

Thank you Kingfisher Apiaries, for this idea, I am thinking of trying this out with one mating condo, in the near future - to see how it works.

BTW, I forgot to mention the entire bottoms of my mating condo's are just #8 hardware cloth for good ventilation, with small strips of wood attached to the bottoms of the partitions and the wire to ensure no unwanted access between partitions.

When it's cool I use a piece of 1" styrofoam (on the bottom) to keep out drafts, and when it rains I put another piece on top of each unit (as a master cover) to keep them dry. With the individual top hardboard covers, there is no extra clearance, so without the feeder jars the styrofoam would close all the feeder holes. This would be a problem if it were to rain and the bees needed feed at the same time. That is why I suggested wax coating the hardboard covers - that should keep out enough rain to keep the bees warm and dry.

Here is a link to SketchUp plans -->

​


----------



## Joseph Clemens

I tried the mini mating nucs. I assembled about a dozen. I made mini feeders, stocked them with bees and queen cells. They built their tiny little combs, but every time a queen would go on her mating flight, everyone would go with her and no one would return. I probably seeded the countryside with several dozen mini-swarms with the genetics of my queens.

Perhaps there is a simple remedy, but I never found it. I've never once had a 3-frame, or even a 2-frame mating nuc abscond, but I can't get the mini's to stay put.

Then, of course, there's the ability to interchange every frame in your entire operation with any other frame -- or not.


----------



## rrussell6870

The Styrofoam nucs just do not take in our climate either. Too hot and humid I guess. The only way that we could get them to stick was to start them with mated queens like tiny packages. Then by the second cycle, they would still abscond. The double sided ones worked a bit better, especially in late fall, but the really tiny ones just didn't cut it. Our minis are cypress duplexes that hold two "half size" frames and a feeder... the feeder is removed after the second cycle and a third frame is added. We work foundation and foundationless frames into these every cycle or so to keep them from over developing. We start these with about 8 oz of bulk bees, a ripe cell, and one drawn empty, one foundation, and a small frame feeder with 1:1...


----------



## David LaFerney

What do you do with all those 1/2 sized resources at the end of the season?

I must say that this is really educational. I've gone with standard frame nucs because I still need drawn comb to grow my apiary, but I didn't know that absconding was an issue with minis. Good thing to know.


----------



## Oldtimer

Is it possible to see a pic of one of your minis, Robert?

Bearing in mind I know you are insanely busy, so only if you can make time!


----------



## rrussell6870

Mini Frame Supers (Holds 20 Mini Frames aka Half frames "Not the tiny ones used in the small styrofoam nucs")

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06075.jpg

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06076.jpg

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06077.jpg

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06078.jpg

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06079.jpg

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06080.jpg

Note the positioning on the hive and the number of drone cells in certain frames... These frames were honey frames while in the minis... They are gathered and placed on one side of the super, while worker brood frames are placed on the other... this allows us to not have to use any drone comb and keeps the bees from building any burr in these hives... These supers can be moved up or down in the hive to fit whatever need we foresee having... So lower gives us brood frames to boost nucs and help keep bees from absconding when they are stocked, higher gives us honey to feed the nucs, which is a must when the SHB get going... Syrup is a beetles best friend. lol.


----------



## rrussell6870

Here is a super added higher on a hive... By the way, this is ALL natural cell...

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06080.jpg

A few sunkist hives with mini supers...

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06081.jpg

Three-way nucs in Deep, Medium, and Shallow...

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06086.jpg


A shallow three-way that a frame had been forgotten in...

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06087.jpg


----------



## rrussell6870

Cell Starters for this yard... Two pics because I couldnt get the whole thing in one... These are only used for the first 24 hours of the cell building process, then the cells are moved to the upper story of cell finishers... These 17 starters can start 1,496 cells each day for 7 days before they have to be rested... Thats 10,472 cells in one week... However, we set up plenty of starters and finishers in every single mating yard, so we never have to have this many is use... Instead, we cycle them as we use them, resting them in between each cycle.

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06088.jpg

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06089.jpg

Note that these are under a roof, which is under trees, they are placed so that the wind blows on them to cool them, and they are set up high enough to keep the air flow consistant... VERY important to keep these cool, especially in the deep south where it is already topping 100 degrees heat index... These are 5 frame nucs running 3 and 4 frames, each stocked with a full 3 lbs of nurse bees, and 2 frames of emerging brood... Extremely heavy with bees... Frames must be cycled out consistantly when not in use... again these are deep frames and all are foundationless... not that anything is wrong with foundation, but when we run out of places to put all of the frames that they produce, we simply tear out the comb and put the frames back in. lol. Do not want to pay for foundation, just to keep tearing it up. 

Hope this helps!


----------



## rrussell6870

A few MoonBeam hives with mini supers... (notice the funnel in the back, that is one of our shaker boxes... These are kept in every mating yard and hold two 3lb cages beneath them that slide side to side and in from the front... Extremely useful...)

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06082.jpg


----------



## Oldtimer

Fascinating Robert! I like it!


----------



## swarm_trapper

Robert are your starter nucs free flying?


----------



## rrussell6870

No. We shut the doors for 24 hrs. A frame of brood, ripe cell that will hatch the following morning, 8oz of bulk bees, little feed, blank frame, stock at dusk, open after dark the next night. It has to be cool out to do this. When its warmer out, we use caged virgins to stock them with because you will only get one shot at getting them to stick...


----------



## winevines

deknow said:


> A friend of mine has been stapling strips of masonite inside the box to hold the slats. If you cut grooves and remove the slats, the bees will fill with propolis...with the strips, you can pry the strips off.


Learned the hard way myself. Use duct tape to cover the slats and that has worked fine


----------



## rrussell6870

Sorry, the original post that showed these pics was deleted. Here are the pics of the Mini Duplexes...

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06071.jpg

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06072.jpg

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06073.jpg


----------



## rrussell6870

This pic shows our old Home mating yard (well about half of it anyways)... These little nucs are singles that held 3 half frames and a feeder. You may notice a piece of red cloth hanging out from under a few tops. That was used to help seal the bulk bees in during stocking. Although tiny, about 30% of these little nucs would be strong enough by the end of the year that we would leave them be and see what made it through winter... About 70% of them wintered just as they are... This may be an option for folks in a warm climate that can make these tiny pine boxes and use bulk bees and empty frames (which by the way were hand made and very cheap... I will post a few pics of them as well)...

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell2069.jpg


----------



## rrussell6870

Here is a pic showing one of our old handmade half frames (medium hight) next to the milled style that most use today. This frame is old and the comb is brittle of course, but it still shows a that the natural cell is completely drawn out and the best part of this simple design is that it only cost about 20 cents per frame to make... and that is using high quality wood... yellow pine works just as well and cost even less... The wax is free of course...

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell07005.jpg


----------



## frazzledfozzle

Robert is this how you set up all your mating yards?
I'm surprised at how many you have and that they are in rows?
you dont have an issue with drifting?

love the photos really interesting

frazz


----------



## rrussell6870

Not all, but most. We do have a lot of drift, but the bulk bees are forced to stay with a queen (freshly emerged before opening) and the brood frame... so even with the drift, they end up keeping the nucs stocked well... the extra resources scattered throughout actual hives in the yard provide plenty to care for poop-outs, and the queens find their way back to their nucs quite well. 

We did a rough study once where we set up nucs with just frames of brood and minimal bees and then dumped bulk bees out in the yard about twenty feet in front of the nucs and let them drift into the nucs... worked fairly well under the circumstances, but still not well enough to consider it a functional means of course.


----------



## rrussell6870

In the last pic, there were over 5,000 nucs in that yard alone... we do not keep that many in one yard any more, but mainly because we try to avoid having "all the eggs in one basket", which this springs tornadoes just reminded us of that lesson once again.


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

Doc, you really need an album on your site...those take forever to load on good ol east texas internet LOL. Thanks. 
I think I will do this- 50/50 medium frames and minis. I will make 2 frame med single boxes, and add a frame of drawn and a frame of foundation. I will do 100 of those...and will make some up this fall and over winter for kicks. Also, I will get a bunch of mann lake mini frames and make a 100 of them up on some strong hives...maybe get some Skists. Would you do foundationless in these? If so, how would you do it?
mike


----------



## David LaFerney

I can see how the half frames could efficiently work along with standard equipment if you set it up right. I made quite a lot of frames from scratch this past winter and I can see how the 1/2s would be really much easier to build - especially for foundationless. That really looks to me like the practical compromise between full frames and tiny oddball sized styro nucs. Also, it seems that one could get an earlier start with permanant combs instead of starting from scratch every spring.... you do start from scratch every year with the styro nucs don't youi? Anyway, much thanks for sharing.


----------



## rkereid

David LaFerney said:


> I just use mediums for everything. And by the way, I have entrance holes at both ends of each individual nuc - only one open at a time of course. Some I have both entrances on the same end, and some on alternate ends. So far I haven't really seen a pattern of one being better than the other.  So far.
> 
> Think these will winter with another story on top if I keep them fed?


David, I have had real good luck wintering 5 frame 2 story medium nucs. Just get them fed up in the fall and they are raring to go in the spring. I'll be doing the same again this year.


----------



## Andrew Schmitt

Russell, 
When you say "bulk bees" are used what exactly do you mean. How are these bees shook? I mean what age bees are they? 
Thanks, 
Andrew


----------



## David LaFerney

rrussell6870 said:


> ...30% of these little nucs would be strong enough by the end of the year that we would leave them be and see what made it through winter... About 70% of them wintered just as they are... This may be an option for folks in a warm climate...


How do you manage them to overwinter? Of course you leave them queenright at some point and I would guess you let them build up a winter cluster and fill the feeders. I know your seasons are different in severity than mine, but the change of season dates are about the same it seems (I have a gardener sister in Meridian that keeps me filled in) I'm thinking if you can over winter 4 1/2 frames I can probably overwinter 4 full frames a little bit north. I'll probably try it anyway. It sure would be nice if I can.

You sure have opened up a can of questions to answer.


----------



## Jonathan Hofer

Joseph Clemens said:


> I tried the mini mating nucs.... but every time a queen would go on her mating flight, everyone would go with her and no one would return.



Quick question: Did you lock the bees in for a few days, or did you allow them to fly freely right away?


jh


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

JH, are you realated to any hofers in the midwest? I have some hofer relatives.


----------



## Joseph Clemens

Jonathan Hofer said:


> Quick question: Did you lock the bees in for a few days, or did you allow them to fly freely right away?
> 
> 
> jh


I didn't "lock them in", I gave them bees, combs of emerging brood and honey. I gave them queen cells. The queens would emerge, then mature, the bees would forage, tend brood, repair comb, etc. It wasn't until the queens would leave on their practice or mating flights that those little styrofoam mini-mating nucs would empty out, even leaving stores and brood behind.


----------



## Velbert

I wintered about 55 of the bee works Mini Nuc but am building some 4 frame mediums with telscoping lids and reversable bottoms so i can stacke them up about 2-3 high for wintering 

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g307/vlwbee/IMG-20110509-00134.jpg


----------



## Jonathan Hofer

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> JH, are you realated to any hofers in the midwest? I have some hofer relatives.


Might be, but truly don't know

Would need more details. A four-generation genealogy from your relatives would be helpful in really determining it.


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

Hofers in Hillsboro KS, Carpenter SD also.
mike


----------



## Jonathan Hofer

Might be distantly related to the ones on SD. Don't know about KS though.


----------



## Jonathan Hofer

I had the same problem a few years ago. Seemed like when the queen went out on the mating flight, all the bees followed her. I picked the small "swarms" off the trees, put them back into the mating nucs, and they stayed. I have not yet determined what caused it though.


----------



## Michael Bush

Not a new observation...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearingsimplified.htm#c15

"There are many styles of nucleus hives in use, and some have desirable features not found in the others. The small Baby Nucleus hive had a run for a while but is now generally considered a mere passing fad. It is so small that the bees are put into an unnatural condition, and they therefore perform in an unnatural manner. They seem to delight in pulling off all sorts of crazy stunts, such as absconding with a laying queen or absconding with a virgin; absconding when they run out of food or absconding when they have plenty. Another of their favorite sports is balling their queen when she returns from her mating flight. I have seen queens fly out from their baby nucleus and, unlike Lot's wife, they never looked behind them. The queens reasoned, "Why take a look at that little hive? I'm not coming back!" And frequently they did not, but would hunt around trying to find a real colony that would accept them. I used to keep a number of bars in a single hive for incubation. These colonies seemed to be particularly inviting to these truant queens, which were usually accepted. There was henceforth a great tearing down of cells, and it made me very dejected to see a double handful of dead queens lying in front of these hives. They never worked this game, however, where cells were finished above the excluder. These baby nuclei are easily robbed out, do not gather enough to live on and do not stand either hot or cold weather as well as the larger ones.

"I have a vision of one day during a dearth of pasture in hot July when a baby nucleus absconded and went up into a tall tree and clustered. Was it worth going after? Maybe they had a laying queen, so I would try. The whole swarm was not much bigger than a walnut, shucks and all. At last, after climbing till I was completely tired out and had almost reached the, they took wing. While I was watching them disappear into the blue sky and was in a state of mind unnecessary to describe, along came a cheerful idiot who asked, "Say, Mister, how much honey did they make up there?" "--Jay Smith Queen Rearing Simplified


----------



## HVH

Oldtimer said:


> Yes, if you need to raise all the queens early, in one hit, you'll either need more hives, or go baby nucs. What time frame do you have to produce them?
> 
> Here's a pic of the full frame nucs I'm using now. The box is divided into 3 nucs of 3 frames each, by two bits of hardboard slid down grooves cut into the box before it was nailed up.


When using standard sized boxes (divided) what do you use as covers to keep the queens from crawling over to the adjacent chamber? 
Sorry if this has already being addressed but I am just starting this thread and don't have time to finish it today.


----------



## frazzledfozzle

We use lino/vinyl floor covering we find the samples that are given to the flooring stores are just the right size and when needed we go round and pick up the old samples in exchange for a few jars of honey


----------



## Joseph Clemens

My hardboard partitions are 1/8 - 1/4" higher than the edge of the condo. I cut scraps of hardboard into individual covers that fit between the raised partition edges -- this way I only need to have one partition open at a time.


----------



## Steve C

> a cheerful idiot who asked, "Say, Mister, how much honey did they make up there?"


Good one Michael... I had tears in eye laff-ing so hard....


----------



## Oldtimer

HVH said:


> When using standard sized boxes (divided) what do you use as covers to keep the queens from crawling over to the adjacent chamber?
> Sorry if this has already being addressed but I am just starting this thread and don't have time to finish it today.


Yes, the partions are raised maybe 1/2 inch higher than the box, and I use 3 individual hive mats, one on each unit, that fit between the raised part of the partition. So they are completely bee tight, no way for the queens to find each other.

However I think RRussells version of baby nucs would be easier, just I wanted to stay with standard equipment, as I'm a small hobby operation, plus I sell hives as well as queens so it's easy to convert surplus bees from these nucs into hives that can be sold.


----------



## Joseph Clemens

Yes, like Oldtimer said, I too am just a small, part-time operation and using standard frame sizes allows me to easily convert the mating nucs into regular, medium-depth, 5-frame nucleus colonies, and I sell a few of those too.


----------



## snl

Joseph Clemens said:


> My hardboard partitions are 1/8 - 1/4" higher than the edge of the condo. I cut scraps of hardboard into individual covers that fit between the raised partition edges -- this way I only need to have one partition open at a time.


Thanks ......how do you do your bottom boards and nuc entrances? Are the nuc entrances cut into the nuc or part of the bottom board?


----------



## Oldtimer

Will take some better pics and post them day after tommorrow.


----------



## kilocharlie

For what it's worth...I made frames to fit inside bricks - fairly big, square ones - and buildt ledges into them to hang the frames. These turned out to be standard sized mini mating nucleus frames that 30 of them fit into a medium (6 5/8") honey box with two extra shelf partitions added. I supered some hives with the boxes of 30 mini frames in the spring and pulled them off before they got too filled up with honey. I made base floors to hold 4 bricks with openings in pinwheel arrangement.

This year has brought lots of fog in my area and not much honey production. I had to cut back my anticipated queen rearing operation quite a bit. So far, the few mating colonies I have had out don't seem to mind the bricks for houses and the queens appear to be mating well enough. I'll have a percent later.


----------



## jean-marc

Well if Mr Jay Smith were still around I would have to point out that the mini nuc may have been a mere passing fad in his time but somehow it has withstood the test of time and here we are some 90 or so years later and it is still being used today. Every type of frame or system has it's advantages and disadvantages. One just has to figure out for himself what works best in his or her circumstances. The biggest advantage of the mini nuc is that you do not need a lot of resources to stock it.

Jean-Marc


----------



## snl

Much of what is discussed, likes, dislikes & the favorites etc, boil down in many ways to individual preferences and what works for whom. Also, there are vast differences between those raising a couple of queens, those raising a hundred queens and those raising thousands.........

As jean-marc stated in this thread ....Every type of frame or system has it's advantages and disadvantages. One just has to figure out for himself what works best in his or her circumstances.


----------



## kilocharlie

I believe that the smaller Baby nuc is the passing fad. Most of the queen rearing guys and gals I've met use the Mini mating frames, 3 of them to a Mini nuc with a mini frame feeder. I see quite a few double mating nucs, but 4-way uses less wood and should retain more heat. Heat is probably not so much of a concern during mating season unless you are up north. I have both standard ( 9 5/8" ) 10-frame Langstroths partitionable to 2 x 5-frame double nucs or 3 x 3-frame mating nucs, and mini mating bricks. The Lang's will eventually be cut down to 10-frame mediums ( 6 5/8" deep) as my shoulders aren't getting any stronger. The Mini frames are 6" wide at the top bar, 5 1/8" at the outside of the side bars, and 6 1/8" deep. One piece of medium foundation makes 3 of them, although I use a lot of comb cut from feral hives in attics, horse stables, dog houses, etc. for mating frames as they are usually empty. With 2 sideways partitions (with shelves on both sides of the partition), you can fit 30 of them into a (modified) medium 10-frame super.


----------



## snl

kilocharlie said:


> I believe that the smaller Baby nuc is the passing fad. Most of the queen rearing guys and gals I've met use the Mini mating frames, 3 of them to a Mini nuc with a mini frame feeder. I see quite a few double mating nucs, but 4-way uses less wood and should retain more heat. Heat is probably not so much of a concern during mating season unless you are up north. I have both standard ( 9 5/8" ) 10-frame Langstroths partitionable to 2 x 5-frame double nucs or 3 x 3-frame mating nucs, and mini mating bricks. The Lang's will eventually be cut down to 10-frame mediums ( 6 5/8" deep) as my shoulders aren't getting any stronger. The Mini frames are 6" wide at the top bar, 5 1/8" at the outside of the side bars, and 6 1/8" deep. One piece of medium foundation makes 3 of them, although I use a lot of comb cut from feral hives in attics, horse stables, dog houses, etc. for mating frames as they are usually empty.


Got pics........descriptions are great, but pics...................


----------



## kilocharlie

Setting up shop in a new place - so photos are a few weeks away. I took a number of photos for a class I'm teaching soon - so I'll check if I have any. Also, there is a good photo of a VERY similar design in Harry Laidlaw's book, Contemporary Queen Rearing. 

One can simply add 2 partitions to a medium without sawing slots. Just nail them from the outside. Measure the inside length, which should be in the neighborhood of 18 3/8", divide by 3, which should render a quotient of about 6 1/8". That's the spacing for the partitions. The partitions go sideways (like additional short sides) and you can reverse engineer the frames from that. The trick is getting the bees to draw out the comb and pull them off before they're all filled with honey. (Its a LOT of work making up 25 of these boxes AND the 750 mini frames!)

I got lucky and found just the right brick. The bricks cost $1.31 each.


----------



## Oldtimer

> Thanks ......how do you do your bottom boards and nuc entrances? Are the nuc entrances cut into the nuc or part of the bottom board?


Here's the pics. The first one showing a nuc box, which is a standard deep, with the entrance layout for two of the three nucs that are in the box. 
The second is a close up of an entrance. The entrance is just a cut in the bottom board. A hole in the side of the box is probably better from the bees perspective but in this area there is high humidity and rainfall and condensation can form a pool on the bottom board, so the entrance is a small channel cut right down into the bottom board to let any water drain. There is a small landing platform that can be easily removed if I want to stack gear.
The third shows a hive mat removed from one of the nucs, so you can see how the divider board between the nucs comes up between the hive mats.

This configuration would not be the most efficient for a commercial queen breeder, some of the smaller framed nucs described would be better. It just suits me because I only have a few hives and want all standard gear including the frames. The same equipment can be used to make up nucs or hives to be sold, as what I'm breeding queens in, so more flexibility needed for a small operation.


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

I have been talking with Larry Connor about this. I am seriously leaning towards full size 4-5 frame deep nucs. What i am thinking is this-
1. Make 200 up in mid march
2. Pull queens April 1st
3. Rebuild the no-takes and give them all cells again. 
4. Half keep making queens for sale, and the other half are kept for 3-5 weeks to be sold as nucs. 
Continue selling queens through the end of the season. I can take the brood of of the strong ones to make more nucs to fill up all the empty boxes from the nucs that were sold. 
Basically I am trying to keep one frame size. 
Any thoughts?
Mike


----------



## Oldtimer

It would work.

Just one comment on working with these large framed nucs, that nobody thinks of at first, when you're caging queens it takes quite a bit longer, purely because it can take a fair bit longer to actually find the queen, than it does in a baby nuc.


----------



## jim lyon

We have a bingo! Couldnt have said it better myself Mikie, Oldtimer is right on the additional time but the overall simplicity is why I like it.


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

Thanks. I realize that Oldtimer. Minis will be a pain to deal with. And divided deeps take much longer to find queens in as the compartments are too small for working in...you would be surprised how many times i have had bottom board running queens. With a 4-5 frame deep its easy to find the queens. Just longer. But that is a trade off I am willing to take....4 way deeps (2 deep frames in each compartment) were a disaster for me this year...I ended up donating them to a local assn to auction off. 
Simplicity is what i need right now. Running 2 "divisions" in one business takes tons of time. 
Mike


----------



## Specialkayme

I made three different, four section medium boxes last winter to try mating queens at. I had mixed results with my first batch of queens (about 1/2 or 1/3 made it), but I wasn't sure if it was the boxes or if it was me (still think it was me). I just checked on my second batch today, and I think a few of them flew the coup. I'm starting to think that the sections might be a little bit too small (or I didn't stock them correctly).

I think I'll spend the winter building a few medium three frame sectionals. Once I get those done, I think I'll try and duplicate some of Russell's mini's (they do look very sweet). I think if I try all three different types, along with trying a few 5 frame nucs, I'll be able to see what I have the best success with.

I'd also like to try and build a few of those division board feeders, like Mr. Palmer has, that not only divide the section up but count as a feeder as well. Still can't see how he makes those though.


----------



## Michael Bush

>purely because it can take a fair bit longer to actually find the queen, than it does in a baby nuc. 

I doubt it takes me longer with two medium frames than a baby nuc with four small frames, but four deeps would definitely take longer.


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

I agree Mr Bush. But in reality I have been there done that with different hives under one roof. It just does not work well for me. Unless you have a good 2 frame medium nuc box plan. Then I am all ears.
mike


----------



## jim lyon

I'm not going to go on record as stating that what Mike suggests in post #77 is a real efficient way to raise a lot of queens but it is almost exactly what we have done in years in which we have surplus brood when nucing. If done early enough you can easily raise an extra queen or two and still end up with a nice 4 comb nuc when you are done which is pretty good property in early May. Easy to stock, enough room for queens to lay out, no messing with bulk bees and easy to tear down when you are done and we always seem to catch 85 to 90% in them. Only downsides are that it can be a little difficult to find queens at times and you are using more bee power than is necessary.


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

Exactly. Last thing I really want to figure out this winter is making 400-500 mini frames and then swapping brood having to buy bulk bees etc. The main idea is to have something to work with post fact...not a bunch of mini frames of brood. And who said I was going to raise a lot of queens? My goal is 500 queen cells made next year....give or take. Simplicity rules! I do realize that it will take some extra time to find queens...but it sure beats having to dig in narrow boxes and have odd sized frames.
mike


----------



## Michael Bush

>I agree Mr Bush. But in reality I have been there done that with different hives under one roof. It just does not work well for me. Unless you have a good 2 frame medium nuc box plan. Then I am all ears.

I have quite a few two frame boxes, but it takes a lot less lumber to build 4 way boxes.

Here's a plan for a two frame medium. Cut a one by four into two 7 1/4" lengths (ends). Cut two 19 7/8" length of one by six (bottom and cover). Cut two one by eights (actual width 7 1/4") 19 7/8" long (sides). Cut a rabbet 5/8" deep and 3/8" wide on the ends (the 3 1/2" width) for a frame rest on each of the 7 1/4" one by fours. Stand the two 7 1/4" ends with the rabbets down and lay the bottom on top, center it and nail it down into the ends. Turn it on one side and nail the first side on. Flip it over and nail the second side on. Put it bottom up and nail down into the sides. Put a shingle shim on each side of the cover to make the entrance and glue and nail those.

Done.

I have about a dozen of these. But I have more than a hundred of the four ways and a dozen two ways (five frame nucs divided) and a few three and four frame ones and about fifty five frame ones...

But the four ways are much more efficient use of the lumber.


----------



## rrussell6870

I know I have posted this somewhere before, just can't remember where. Lol. 

You could always just cut the groves for the division boards into all of your deeps (assuming you winter in doubles with a super above) then in early spring simply pull the top deeps and put them on threeway bottom boards and place a deep of foundation on the hives in there place... that way you simply put in the division boards, add cells to all three holes, and when your done mating queens, you cage one from each threeway and pull the division boards to let them combine... then once they are ready to accept the queen again, release her and add a deep of foundation to the top of each one so they can build up like splits... this way you are making increases, controlling swarming, not constantly robbing brood frames, and mating queens at the same time... also, your threeways will need to be weakened every now and then while mating queens, so that gives you brood and bees to make nucs with for resale... its a simple and productive way to keep all the same equipment and mate multiple queens from each box and there is very little lumber involved (only the threeway bottoms, covers for each compartment, and division boards to make during winter)... several of my student workers use this method solely and simply sell the extra singles when they are done mating queens if they do not have space for all of the hives... 

Again, I know I have explained this method before and included pics... if anyone can point me to it, I would appreciate it. Lol.


----------



## rrussell6870

We have study observation hives inside the lab that are cheap and simple (one deep frame with one medium frame above) set up indoors for controlled temps and constant monitoring... with tapered tubes leading to the entrances that line the exterior wall... we use these for many studies, and have mated many queens very early using this simple set up that requires very little resources to stock and you can view the entire process as it happens... so you know right away if a cell doesn't hatch or if a queen doesn't return... and you can judge their pattern and get a better idea of how quickly she is filling out the frame... also, these overwinter with ease... we initially set this up to judge the time it took for the Sunkist to begin laying and measure the lengths and record the times and number of mating flights that they took... usually only took about 7-8 days in Feb, 6-7 days in March, 5-6 days in April... we don't use these to mate queens for resale simply because there is so little space that you can't leave the queen to lay for long enough for my liking, but its a good example of a simple method that one could use to mate 100 or so queens at one time early each spring without ever pulling resources from hives (other than the initial set up of course... I have used the overwintered queens from these to start off mating nucs before and it works well...


----------



## Oldtimer

Ha Robert!, your post #87 is just about what I'm doing.

Over here, we are just going into spring now. As per your post, & my pics a few posts back, these 3 frame nucs have just been through the winter, and all came through fine, no losses. They are just starting to get more active now and beginning to collect nectar and pollen. The queens in them are already pre-sold but no drones flying yet so the queens won't go until there's enough drones for me to plant new cells.

As you said, these nucs do tend to get stronger so I'm removing bees and brood from them as required during the season to make hives or nucs that get sold.

Considering these nucs can winter, I'm finding it all up quite a reasonable way to run a small bee breeding sideline. I only need a few full sized hives for cell raising and a bit of honey.


----------



## rrussell6870

Exactly... Great minds think alike. Lol. As we are still in summer here, it would be the perfect time for someone to start pre-converting their deeps and cycling them onto their hives by simply transferring the frames from the deeps that are on the hives into the deeps that they have converted, then convert the empties that they take off and continue that process until they are all converted over to be dual purpose boxes... we pre drill entrances in ours and then simply plug the holes, but using bottoms like the ones you have would save them from even having to do that... all they need is the grooves cut for the division boards and they are ready to be set on hives so they can be used as soon as they are building up in spring... for areas where they may not over winter as threeway nucs, simply pulling the division boards and marrying the three nucs back into one single will work and a super of honey can be placed on top or if there is a flow after they are finished using them as mating nucs, a second deep can be added to be drawn out and give you three times the number of mating nucs as the year before... its easy, uniform and effective.


----------



## VolunteerK9

Heres what I plan on using next year:

http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/downloads/beekeeping/Bushkill4WayMatingNuc.pdf

I've not ever tried plywood in hive building, but I think they will work out ok. Im going to try them as 2 frames first, and if they dont work out, will pull the dividers. Im enjoying this conversation, please keep it going.


----------



## rrussell6870

Brushy mountain sells one similar to that, its a standard deep with compressed cardboard division boards... the bottom has the notches entrances in it like Oldtimers photo, and the vents are spaces between the thin slats that make up the floor... they work well and since they are standard deeps, you can place them on hives and pull them off already stocked to mate a few queens whenever you need to... the only draw backs that the brushy mountain ones have is they are not good for fighting off shb and the center two holes are slightly smaller than the outer ones, so they are hard to draw deep frames from without rolling the queen if you are not used to it... the gaps it the floor are wide enough for shb to get in with ease, so the bees propilize them most of the way shut, which greatly reduces the air flow... the center two holes are just small enough that a cd trap can't quite fit flat in the bottom of each nuc, so you run the risk of losing those holes, which would leave you with only two functioning holes and some nasty combs to clean... so in my experience, three holes is safer if the center holes of the fourway are not going to allow you to trap shb... the design that you posted may be perfect, I'm just referring to the brushy mountain fourway...


----------



## Specialkayme

The Bushkill design is basically what I used, only I made mine from pine instead of plywood.

I think next season I'd like to try some three frames from the Bushkill design (just changing it a little bit) in addition to the two frame design. I like that you can make four out of one sheet of plywood, although I don't know how well it holds up . . .


----------



## Specialkayme

On second look at that design, why does he have 1/4" Luan as the bottom? I would think you would want something a little bit more sturdy to be the bottom, even with the 1"x2" bottom rails.


----------



## David LaFerney

rrussell6870 said:


> ... the gaps it the floor are wide enough for shb to get in with ease...


That applies to most screened BBs doesn't it? How important is bottom ventilation for mating nucs? I think you told me that many of your 1/2 frame nucs have solid bottoms - right?


----------



## Joseph Clemens

I hope SHB can't get through #8 hardware cloth when it isn't damaged/flawed. Anyone have experience with this?


----------



## Specialkayme

I have a screened drawer on my observation hive, protected with #8 hardware cloth. Mainly used to clear away old cappings, things that randomly fall to the floor, that kinda thing. I installed it in hopes to one day do a mite count, but since it's so small it doesn't really ever have a mite problem. Anyway, occasionally I would find a SHB chilling in the drawer. I don't know if it was because it got through the hardware cloth, or if it got through there some other way (they are tricky little bugs, and will find a way in if they can).


----------



## Oldtimer

Pretty much everybody I've met who has tried dividing a deep into 4, (lengthways that is, ie using standard frames), has had various problems with it and ended up making some different design. These include some of the problems mentioned already such as can't get the frame out without rolling the queen, too small to get your hand in if you have to pick the queen off the wall, and even (so i've been told), poor mating %.
Dividing a box into 3 also has a few issues but not enough to make it a bad idea. I get excellent mating % with them so that seems to be fine. Just make sure all chambers are the same width, so they all have some wiggle room with the frames.
Dividing a deep into 2, will give you stable nucs, but you'll spend quite a bit of time finding queens when you are caging. Dividing into 3, will give you 50% more queens, than dividing into 2, for basically the same equipment.


----------



## snl

Has anyone tried one of those battery powered bug vacs to catch a queen? I would not surmise the vac w/b that powerful to harm her. Perhaps an answer to not needing to get your hand into a 4 way or any other nuc to capture the queen and some attendants.........


----------



## LT

We use minis, mediums divided into 2 compartments and 4 frame nucs. The minis work well in Spring thru May here and do not take as many bees to stock. You can shake enough bees from one hive to stock about 13 minis. Mediums are used to make queens and sell med nucs. The deeps make it thru the summer and in to fall. Wish the mini nuc feeders wouldnt leak so often. We melt pariffin and dip them. Must be doing something wrong. Any ideas on feeders.


----------



## David LaFerney

Sounds like it's just not a one size fits all answer. Minis take less resources to start, make queens easier to find and are probably great during spring swarm season. Bigger hives cope with stress (robbing, heat, dearth, hive beetles...) better, and produce by products like comb, brood and nuc material - and are better long term homes for queens. But are more expensive to start, and make queen finding more time consuming.

Seems obvious now that it's all laid out for me - but all the input is priceless, so thanks.

What did we do without the internets?


----------



## Specialkayme

With all the information laid out in front of you, what did you decide to go with?


----------



## rrussell6870

David, yes, my mini nucs (half length frames) have solid bottoms and the only shb issues that I ever have with them is if I need to feed them during an unusually long summer dearth... I'm tell you guys, syrup and shb are an explosive combination... that's why I try to rotate to capped honey frames instead of feeders after the first or second cycle... in the case of the brushy mountain fourway, the spaces in the bottom are the only air way period, so being a crack is asking for trouble... yes adolescent shb can get through #8 hardware cloth, and can even get between the screen and the wood... but anything that slows their entrance enough for the bees to catch on to their attempts to enter will give the bees a chance to defend it better... sbb's are problematic mainly after a swarm in a full sized hive... the nucs are vulnerable all of the time though because they are constantly suffering big fluctuations in brood and food... my threeways do have partial screened bottoms on them for air flow, but I use aluminum door screen which has the downside of having to be torn out and replaced once or maybe twice a season due to heavy propilizing... screens on the bottoms of mating nucs can cause troubles as you guys may have already noticed if you use them... the scent of rival queens that close can be overwhelming for a young queen... so a fully screened bottom can lead to odd absconding, "un-neighborly" visits, and queens that just don't seem focussed on what they are suppose to be doing... so my partially screened threeway bottoms are simply a 2 1/2" hole cut into the rear for hole #1, the front for hole #2, and the center for hole #3... then the aluminum door screen is stapled over each hole tightly... note, I recommend that the screens go on top of the bottom boards (inside the nucs) so that it doesn't create a "catch trap" for debris which will give wax moths a place to get started... hope this helps.


----------



## rrussell6870

Larry, I like to dip them in melted wax, letting it fill the inside and cover the outside at the same time, then lift them out for a moment and then pour out the wax and let them cool... the trick is getting the wax to the right temp so that it isn't too hot in order to get a nice thick coating on the inside and out... this encourages the bees to build comb in the feeders, which is exactly what you want so they will have a safe ladder to get to the syrup on... the next trick is to know when to pull the feeders and switch to capped honey frames... 

Another trick that works well is a small petri dish in the bottom with a thin cut of foundation around the rim... this can be filled at night with just a splash of syrup to allow them to take it up quickly before day break to prevent robbing...


----------



## David LaFerney

SpecialKayme - 

Well, I started this season with 18 4 frame mating nucs that were 8 frame mediums (my standard) divided in half. Those can be supered for double 4 over 4s - I'm gonna try wintering some. Then later I added 14 more 3 frame singles. And I've also been using several 5 frame mediums as half way houses to promote mating nucs to full hive status. 

I like singles better than divided hives for several reasons, and I'm a woodworker and have a pretty good shop so I can make them cheap (less than $2 for a stand alone 3 or 4 frame) and you can start either 3 or 4 frame nucs with 2 frames - one of brood and one of food - without too much extra space. 4 frames are noticeably easier to manage than 3.

So... I'm going to go with 4 frame (medium) singles - migratory covers with jar holes in the lids to feed when needed. With only 2 frames in them queens are pretty easy to find, with 3-4 frames in them they can pretty much fend for their selves (even in hard times - 4 better than 3 though) once they get strong. You can split 2 frames out of them to make more nucs and they still have enough to get by - take 2 out of a 3 framer and it *really* sets it back. 

But I want to try some minis too, probably only during our spring flow - late April to the middle of June - before robbing and hive beetles get rolling. That would be to produce a lot (for me - 80 or so) of queens in 2-3 batches during the prime season with a smaller investment - If I have a market for them. Then retire the minis for the year and by then have some nice strong full frame nucs going to use during the challenging later part of the season. 

I can't pay $10-$20 (or more) for any of them though, so I have to figure out a simple design I can make. Which I have for the full (3-5) frame nucs. I'm not going to toss out what I already have though.

Once I have plenty of comb for all of my honey hives I'll probably want to try some 1/2 frame nucs too, but not next year.

So If I was starting all over I would use 4 frame singles and give minis a try during the peak season. I've never regretted doing all medium frames at all.


----------



## David LaFerney

Dr. Russell -

I haven't had any problems with window screen yet - used it in several places including bottoms - but I don't have hired help either. Never liked the idea of a bottom that was wide open to the SH Btsarads - IE #8 wire.

Good advice on feeding honey frames for sure - syrup and HBH clearly exacerbate robbing. Maybe just feed the big strong hives and steal frames from them. I just don't have enough of the good stuff to go around all the time. Fortunately we seem to have a bit of a flow on. Finally.


----------



## Velbert

Built some 4 frame medium 1/2 length single Mating Nuc with reversible bottoms and telscoping covers and wooden hive top feeder been feeding 55 Hfcs full strength shb like the high moisture when feeding sugar water. Like single lot better than the multi units


----------



## Specialkayme

I never thought about making a stand alone 3 or 4 frame nuc. Just didn't cross my mind. While it's an interesting idea, I don't see what the advantage is of having one over having a 10 frame split up three ways into three 3 frame sections. With a stand alone three frame nuc, no standard equipment (other than the medium frames) will fit on it, such as feeders/bottom boards/tops, and you can't use it for anything other than a 3 frame nuc. I like the idea of being able to use a compartmentalized box as a standard box, or using a regular tele cover if you have to.

I think I might buy a few sheets of plywood and spend the fall/winter building 4 Bushkill 3 section mating nucs, as well as a number of Russell mini nucs (if I can find/figure out a design I like) and try both of them out next spring. Having all four different types (Russell mini's, 2 frame castles, 3 frame castles, and 5 frame nucs) standing next to each other will clearly point out the benefits and drawbacks of each type, and make it very clear which works well for me. Plus, three sheets of plywood wouldn't set me back very much, and I can convert most of it back to standard equipment if need be, or just sell the ones I don't like.


----------



## EastSideBuzz

So I take my 5 frame Nuc and made a divider board that slides down the center. I have tops with double holes for 2 feeder bottles so my 5 framers become 2 2 framers. I have 2 entrances and just block one and plug one of the holes on the lid when they are used as a 5 framer.


----------



## David LaFerney

Specialkayme said:


> I never thought about making a stand alone 3 or 4 frame nuc. Just didn't cross my mind. While it's an interesting idea, I don't see what the advantage is ...


I don't know if there is a *THE* advantage... You can move them individually - swap spots to strengthen one or weaken another. You can sell them - rem they cost me less than $2 to make. You can swap them into a larger box to build them into a larger hive. If one dead outs it isn't physically attached to a healthy one -or two. If one gets a laying worker it's easy to shake it out without fouling up the others. If you size them right you can set them side by side and use a standard cover. 

Also, I'm not 100% sure about this, but it sometimes seems that if one of a tandem fails to make a queen it might do so over and over. If one is queenright the workers tend to drift to it, making the others more vulnerable to robbing, hive beetles, etc...

Plus, my stand alone nucs are two simple pieces - the box, and the lid, and they are danged handy to have around for all kinds of things besides just mating nucs. Can you say that about 4 in 1s?

I'm not trying to sell you one way or another - clearly they all work, and each have some merit.


----------



## Specialkayme

I think we might just have two different views of the same coin David, not that either of us is wrong.

To me, you can swap spots with a 3 in one just as easily as you can with three stand alone nucs. Actually it's easier, I can just rotate the box to change the population, I don't have to move anything.

You can sell a stand alone just as easy as you can sell a 3 in 1, especially because neither of them are "standard" equipment.

You can build a 3 in 1 over a hive easier than you can a three frame nuc, as it already fits perfectly.

If you size them right you might be able to fit two under a standard cover, but I can already fit three under a standard cover _without_ having to size them just right.

I'll give it to you on the shake out with laying workers, and the unhealthy/routine problem hives. Thats something that just comes with the multi ones.

But you might be able to make one for $2, but you can make 4 separate 3 in 1's for $16, or $4 a piece. That means I can get 3 different three frame sections for $4 each, when you can get two three frame nucs for the same price. That's of course if we go with three frame sectionals, not the two frame that I think we both already went away from.

And to me, the 3 in 1's are more handy to have around, as they can be converted into both two 5 frame nucs, or a full 10 frame hive body.

But again, I'm not against you David, as I see where you are coming from. It's just two sides of the coin.

I wish you the best, hopefully we can find a superior design together.


----------



## Specialkayme

rrussell6870 said:


> Sorry, the original post that showed these pics was deleted. Here are the pics of the Mini Duplexes...
> 
> http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06071.jpg
> 
> http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06072.jpg
> 
> http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell06073.jpg


Russell, this may be a little bit too much to ask, so if it is feel free to decline until a slower season comes around  but do you think you could tell me a little bit more about your Mini Duplexes? Such as the dimensions, how many frames, ect?

I'm in the process of "reverse engineering" them, so I can build a few for next spring, but I can't seem to get enough out of the pictures you provided.

Also, I was thinking about making a few out of a sheet of 3/4" plywood, along with four three-ways as per Bushkill's design. Any thoughts on potential problems with making them out of plywood?


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

And were did the feeders come from? They ain't homemade!
Mike


----------



## rrussell6870

Specialkayme said:


> Russell, this may be a little bit too much to ask, so if it is feel free to decline until a slower season comes around  but do you think you could tell me a little bit more about your Mini Duplexes? Such as the dimensions, how many frames, ect??


Larry (LT) was selling some a few weeks ago on the for sale forum.. he may still have some that you can use to go by... I will try to get the dimensions for you... they are 3 frames per hole, or 2 frames / 1 feeder... all cypress duplex... I will get you more pics and dimensions and post them here...



Specialkayme said:


> Any thoughts on potential problems with making them out of plywood?


The only trouble with plywood is that it swells and shrinks and thus wont last as long as solid lumber... almost all of our boxes (nucs, hive bodies, supers, tops, bottoms, etc...) are solid cypress... and many of those mini nucs have been around for 40+ years with only minor repairs here and there... But plywood would work fine for a small operation that can store them when they are not in use..


----------



## rrussell6870

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> And were did the feeders come from? They ain't homemade!
> Mike


Yes they are. lol. The wooden and galvanized half lenth (mini) feeders are made right here in our shops... There are actually two types of wooden ones that we use, Solid board- drilled out to create a trough for the syrup... and multi fastened 1/4" ply or compressed cardboard... all are dipped in bees wax to produce a solid inside/outside seal...


----------



## rrussell6870

Here are some pics with measurements for you...

Fronts.. (this one is 1/2" thick but 1" is better for cold climates) 7 1/4"(h) x 9 1/2"(w)









Sides.. (this one is 1/2" thick, but 1" is better for cold climates) 7 1/4"(h) x 10 1/2"(w)









Bottom (top is the same.. both are 1" thick).. 10 1/4"(w) x 12"(L)









Division board and view of inside... The division board is 3/8" (1/2" can be used to keep common lumber sizes, but thing will get pretty snug, so transfer that extra 1/8" to your Fronts and the width of the bottom and top if you do so) 7 1/4"(h) x 9 3/4"(w)... 
The frame rests are solid 1/2" thick cuts added to the insides these cuts are 6 1/2"(h) x 4 1/2"(w)... 









The vent in the rear of each compartment is 1" (can be changed, but for extra early start up, you will want them pretty small)...
The entrance holes are 3/8"...

Hope this helps!


----------



## rrussell6870

A few more pics..

Feeder in place... the top comes flush with the flap, so feeder is safer with only the holes for entrances to it...









Feeder









Top









Automotive Vinyl is used for the flaps (simply stapled down the center)


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

rrussell6870 said:


> Yes they are. lol. The wooden and galvanized half lenth (mini) feeders are made right here in our shops... There are actually two types of wooden ones that we use, Solid board- drilled out to create a trough for the syrup... and multi fastened 1/4" ply or compressed cardboard... all are dipped in bees wax to produce a solid inside/outside seal...


They looked like plastic.....i guess they are galvanized with wood like you said...could you post some pics of those feeders?
mike


----------



## rrussell6870

Here are the gavanized ones... they are made of 18 gauge galvanized steel sheet metal formed on a simple break press then sealed with wax...
A piece of foundation is placed inside to give the bees something to walk on to reach the syrup safely...


----------



## kilocharlie

Bob - Big thank you for the pics and suggestions - feeders just got easier! We really apreciate your time and efforts, and hope you are catching lots of bass, too. - Casey


----------



## Specialkayme

I made three of your mini mating nucs last weekend, and painted them over the past week. I got three of them out of a half sheet of plywood, so I'm pleased with it. 

I also made four 3-way mating nucs, and 2 five frame standard nucs, out of one and a half sheets of plywood. All in all, a productive weekend.

I'll try and post some pics tomorrow.


----------



## rrussell6870

Good deal!


----------



## preciousbees

I am interested in the mini/baby nucs, how do you stock them with comb? Paul


----------



## David LaFerney

You don't exactly. You stock them with bees and the bees build the comb.


----------



## David LaFerney

I accidentally killed a queen today while inspecting a hive that had been used as a mating nuc earlier. It's an 8 frame medium super that I just put a flat bottom on, and divided it into 2-4 frame nucs, and drilled holes in the sides for entrances - similar to many I've seen on here. The space under the frames is barely big enough for bee space in this setup, and that is where the queen got squished - she apparently got rolled when I pried over the first frame. It happens.

Anyway, I think this is a flaw in the converted supers as I have been using them. Not because the queen got rolled - that was a fluke - but because the space between the bottom of the frames and the floor is a little too tight. You can easily squish bees when replacing frames, and in particularly tight spots it gives hive beetles one more place to hang out.

Just sayin. Anyone who is thinking of trying this design might want to know.


----------



## rrussell6870

Oh absolutely! The space below the frames when just flush bottomed is also a perfect hiding place for shb where the bees can't seal them in, so they run at their leisure... we use frame wedges on the frame rests to raise the frames on some, but on most we use a special bottom board with shims that meet up with the division boards...


----------



## David LaFerney

I didn't know that before. Now others can benefit from my ignorance. At least it seems the SHB are finally letting up for the year. I guess they've started to diapause. Do they do that?


----------



## Michael Bush

A flat bottom on a Langstroth box leaves only 1/8" at the bottom and 1/4" at the top... that is how queens get squished and bottoms get glued down and pulled off when pulling a frame out...


----------



## David LaFerney

On mine there is 3/16 - 1/4 both above and below. At least that's how they're supposed to be, but as the saying goes "ain't makin' pianos." So it's bound to be tighter in spots and loser in others. However, I used to run a cabinet shop so they aren't too sloppy.

Yet another reason why I've about come to favor purpose made, stand alone nucs. By the time I make a special bottom, and a divider board, and a grove in the hive body I can just about make an entire nuc - with proper bee space.


----------



## rrussell6870

David LaFerney said:


> it seems the SHB are finally letting up for the year. I guess they've started to diapause. Do they do that?


They are opportunistic... they will live in a hive all fall, winter, and spring without ever making a move to lay... all they are doing is waiting for the bees to build up enough stores and the weather to become right to make a suitable nursery for their young... this is the "late sweet spot" where you will want to kill as many as you can because they will be overwintering with your bees if you don't... this means two things...1. More swarming/absconding due to less suitable brood cells for the queens in spring... 2. Bees that are more accustomed to their presence, thus less aggressive at trying to keep them from entering the hives... 

The "early sweet spot" is early April usually when the first wave migrates outward from overwintered swarms and Russians with tiny clusters and large stores that they have reproduced in... stopping them in these two periods will give you the breathing room that you need to keep your operation going a full steam during the crunch times of early spring and the main flow...

I am considering offering wooden ware and in doing so, will possibly be offering all of the different types of equipment that you can't find elsewhere because it is mainly made by the bee and queen producers for their own use... threeway bottoms are one of these such items... would love some feed back to see how receptive the market would be.


----------



## rrussell6870

David LaFerney said:


> Yet another reason why I've about come to favor purpose made, stand alone nucs. By the time I make a special bottom, and a divider board, and a grove in the hive body I can just about make an entire nuc - with proper bee space.


Wintering over may sway your decision some though... with the threeway, you can overwinter three nucs, each with a queen and have mating nucs already stocked and ready in spring...


----------



## David LaFerney

About that - Right now I have nucs scattered around my yard, if I am going to put them over strong hives should I wait until they stop foraging (Dec?) so that the workforce stays with the nuc? Will they reorient when they venture out later?

I don't want the foragers to lose their way home after I move them. You know how our southern winters are - might be 15 on Jan 1st and a week later 60 and sunny for a day or two.

I would have been better off if I'd started out with a tried and true mating nuc design instead of reinventing the wheel - version 3.0 that I'm on so far. Without a shop full of tools I don't know what one would do. So, yes a source of professional queen rearing woodenware would be a good thing to have. I wonder how much market potential there is.

Barring that, some really good plans of tried and true designs would be good too.


----------



## rrussell6870

I would wait until the first week of cold enough temps to keep them from flying, then place them on top of the strong hives and close the entrances up for a good while, like until the first day suitable for flying...

Yes, I know exactly what you mean about the ups and downs of our winters...15 one day, 65 the next, and back to 15 with rain every day and streamline winds of 38mph that seam to target the exact spot that you don't won't to get cold and wet.... I can taste the thera-flu now... lol.

On the wooden ware, I know of the commercial market for it, as we always trade up with one another when we need something... the barter system still works quite well amongst the producers... but the side-liners and upcoming breeders are my concern... I imagine that there are many out there that have been bumping their heads while trying to get the type of equipment that best fits their needs, operation, capabilities, and management styles... 

I think we may give it a shot and maybe add a section to the website that gives info and pics on the different methods of using each type...


----------



## David LaFerney

That's a good idea - you can't decide that you need something if you don't know what it is used for. 

Kind of amazing - a friend got a jenter type system as a Christmas gift. No instructional guidance. Just a sack full of baffling plastic bits. Not much online either I guess by how often people ask about them.


----------



## VolunteerK9

David LaFerney said:


> That's a good idea - you can't decide that you need something if you don't know what it is used for.
> 
> Kind of amazing - a friend got a jenter type system as a Christmas gift. No instructional guidance. Just a sack full of baffling plastic bits. Not much online either I guess by how often people ask about them.


I think on Robos Bushkill site, he has instructions on the Nicot system. I found a few references on Youtube as well. One would think though that the Mfg would get a little better on providing instructions.


----------



## David LaFerney

It's not too hard to figure out if you just know what it is for, and have a basic understanding of queen rearing to begin with. I guess they figure that if you have to ask you aren't ready to use it anyway. I suspect they are wrong though, because I bet the main reason people buy a graftless system is that they have never really tried grafting - or not very much - and are afraid they won't be able to do it. But, It just isn't that hard. Anyway, I'm speculating that most people who buy them don't have much experience yet.

Either that or they are gadget junkies - AKA males.


----------



## Michael Bush

>Kind of amazing - a friend got a jenter type system as a Christmas gift. No instructional guidance. Just a sack full of baffling plastic bits. Not much online either I guess by how often people ask about them. 


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?201316-Coupelarvae&highlight=jenter+instructions
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...r-Jensen-Device&highlight=jenter+instructions


----------



## jim lyon

wrong thread


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries

jim lyon said:


> wrong thread


Thanks. Thread hijackers...
MIke


----------



## ginn68

Robert,

I am very interested in the woodware options from you guys. Any idea on the shipping options yet? For me it's hard to bet the Mann Lake free shipping. 

I am currently building three ways out of modified 10 fr. boxes. I like the fact I can place a queen and winter as a standard and then convert to a 3 way mating nuc in the spring. 

MG


----------



## beelover23

In my personal voice I think the best way to get more out of a queen is to have her nuc up in a small nuc. If you need 150 small nucs to produce the amount of queens you want than that is what it has to take. Just make sure you have enough drones in the area to produce that many queens!


----------



## rrussell6870

ginn68 said:


> Robert,
> 
> I am very interested in the woodware options from you guys. Any idea on the shipping options yet? For me it's hard to bet the Mann Lake free shipping.


I agree completely... Mann Lake has certainly done our industry a great service by offering the free shipping... I know I personally have spent a LOT with them this season alone due to that... they are nice people and I know that they have lost money by offering this, so I thank them for their support... 

We have worked out a deal with UPS to get great rates for our shipping and will still be able to ship usps to save even more for our customers using those options... 

We are going to launch a full line of woodenware and include a large selection of the items that you can't find anywhere else, such as mini nucs, duplexes, mini feeders, package cages, queen cages, etc... as usual, quality is our primary focus on this and we will only be offering tried and true products with each having a full description of methods and instructions posted on our website... 

Our large volume production capabilities will allow us to keep prices very competitive, even though the quality standards are so high...

Hopefully, this will help everyone that is looking to expand their operations and those like Mike, that are looking for methods of raising queens on a large scale, with less resources...


----------



## ginn68

Sounds like a plan. I guess I could take a road trip to pick up the gear from ms. I need an invite first. Lol


----------



## rrussell6870

Lol. I have barely seen MS in the past month... looking forward to getting squared away for the season and taking the wife and little ones to Disney World at the end of this month... after that it will be back to full throttle posting and trying to catch up before next spring... never a dull moment... 

Ps, you are welcome to visit, just never sure when I will be able to "visit my own home" lol. But we will work it out somehow... if you have a place where I can set a cessna 206 down, I can probably make it to your place, but can't carry much equipment. Lol.


----------



## ginn68

I sure do have a spot you can set down a Cessna. 
Here are the cord's: N34°34.99' / W84°1.20'
Elev: 1311'
Here is a nav aid to bring you in on: ODF FOOTHILLS 113.40 259° 36.4 
APPROACH SLOPE 20:1 TO DSPLCD THLD, TREELINE 2380 FT FROM DISPLACED THLD. *** It's a fun one to drop in on. 
And I have plenty of 100LL Fuel

Bring it on...


----------



## rrussell6870

Awesome! I sense a dog fight in the near future! Lol. Or at least a friendly aero acrobatics competition... :applause:

I didn't know you were a pilot! We can get the wives REALLY ANGRY! LOL.

Wife - "honey, where are you and will you be home for dinner?" 

Hubby - ".... ummm can't talk right now dear, I was trying to ditch the three migs and ginn spilt the last of the beer... its ok though, I think we will be able to find plenty of vodka around here... oops gotta go, got incoming again!"
:lpf:


----------



## ginn68

My dad always taught me to hold my cards. Not an offical pilot. I never finished up, but I grew up with a private grass runway beside the house. ;-) Don't tell FFA. I can't squeeze to finish up my hours with all my other duties. Fighting off these mites! Lol

Now if I could just be a full time Beek.

Not much of a drinker, other than black coffee and water. Back in the day.....oh that's another story....running with 5th group SF boys. 

Let us know when the equipment will be offered. I am making nexts year operating plan. I need a ton of mating nucs and normal production gear. 

Worse case you can come pick me up per the cord's above, and I will learn the ropes for a few days. I have eight vac. days to burn over the next couple months. ????


----------



## rrussell6870

Sometimes I wish I still drank... I'm only able to handle a few glasses of wine every few months now-a-days. Lol. 

Like you, I ONCE was able to hang with the best of them... now wine knocks me out, beer makes me thirsty, and a shot would put me down. Lol. 

But its nice to think that I may still have enough kick in me to stir up some trouble one of these days. 

We are hoping to start launching the equipment line this evening... not everything, but starting with the basic stuff and adding items over the next few weeks as we get time... some of it will be coming from an producer in Ohio and will be drop shipped from there... but even if the items that you need are coming from there, I can get them here for pick up to save on shipping a really large order...


----------



## Steve10

Sorry, don't mean to go off topic but can't resist the temptation.... Cut it out guys! You're making me want to get back in the saddle again. Talking to a Rotorcraft ATP/CFII/A&P here. Retired and sold the helicopter charter/ line patrol business a few years ago. Only got as far as my Private/Instrument fixed wing. The Cessna 206 is my dream aircraft and a lot more affordable than a helo. So, if I stuff some hives in the back of a 206 to fly them down to GA to overwinter, do you think the IRS will let me write it off as a business expense? Ginn - got room for a few extra hives? Got to love this bee business! 

Oh yeah, back to the topic.. Dr. Russell, looking forward to seeing your product line. Keep up the good work, learning a great deal from reading and applying your posts.


----------



## ginn68

Steve,
Bring it on. How many you need to winter? 

I know I have been kicking around the idea of finishing. Might be better to be legal.


----------



## Steve10

Ginn,
Just enough to make it a business deduction!

I was surprised that one of the best pilot I ever new, never got his ticket. He claimed what he never had, the FAA couldn't take away. I don't know if he's right, but sure makes you think.


----------



## Specialkayme

I know I'm late to the party . . . and super excited about it . . . sorry, but work's been keeping me busy.

Russell - if you are thinking about offering equipment, I am totally in. As is obvious from my postings in this thread, I've been wrestling with the concept of equipment. For the breeder, having a few hundred (or thousand, or hundred thousand) mating nucs lying around during the off season seems fine, because after all you are a breeder. But for the hobbiest, or the guy that wants to learn to be a breeder, having those hundred nucs lying around the rest of the year can become a little painful, both in space used and cash used. There is only so much cash I can use on the bees a year before the wife raises her eyebrows at me . . . and I would like to avoid that, lol. So versatility of mating equipment is key for me. If you can offer tried and true equipment, at great quality, that solves my needs without breaking the bank, you might be what this site needs! (assuming that you wern't already, lol)

As far as airplanes goes, I don't fly them . . . but occasionally I have to sell them . . . know anyone that buys small, kinda junky planes? lol, thought not . . .


----------



## LT

Hey Special we are in Winston Salem and have some mating nucs Roberts father JN used. Would be glad for you to use some next season in trade for a Sunkist or 2. We just have to many for a husband and wife team to take care of. I think of JN alot as he was a great person to be around and full of knowledge willing to share. Had planned on staying with him a week one time. We took an old timer in his 80s with us that had traded with JN for years and he just had to get back the next day......


----------



## Specialkayme

I may take you up on that offer LT . . . I'm still planning for next year, and building. I have a bunch of 5 frame nucs set up, and I plan on building quite a bit more. They are versatile enough that I can use them for other things (splits, transports, overwinter nucs). Those and a few more three way mating nucs should have me set for next season, I hope.

It all depends on how many I plan on rearing next season. And that depends on how busy I'll be with the new job I started last month. I don't want to commit too much and have the bees suffer as a result, but I also don't want to scale back at all. Since breeding takes several years to get down, I need to use consecutive seasons to help me learn from my mistakes. As always, it's a balance.

But hopefully if I run into the wall, I can drop you a line and we can work some type of barter system out. Would you prefer Russell's SKs or 2nd generation that I reared. . .


----------



## AramF

Have two questions about the split deeps.

1st. If the deep is divided into three sections, do we really need to remove the sections to make them functionable as a regular deep after queens have been raised and sold off. If I simply add it with with its dividers intact, will bees created some unexpected havoc? I assume with another medium or deep on top, the queen can crawl over each divider and seed all of the frames.

2nd. If each of three sections is planted with a ripe queen cell at the same time, can these nucs be converted into 3 queen hives? Then they could be supered on top (through queen excluder) with another deep to place extra brood in, or simply supered for honey? Seems it would be an elegant way of dealing with overpupulation, by making bees store nectar overhead.

Lastly, what seems to be the preferred way for entrances? Drill them into the bodies, or configure the bottom board for separate entries?


----------



## David LaFerney

Interesting ideas. The multi-queen hive idea is intriguing to me as I have a couple of divided (2x4M) nucs that I have supered into double 4 over 4M configuration to over winter. putting an excluder on top of that would somewhat simplify winter feeding, and management of spring expansion. I would imagine that once spring kicks in such a configuration will take some close management to keep it from swarming. Still, being a tinkerer I might just try that.


----------



## AramF

People who do double queen hive by splitting a ten-frame into two five-frames side by side, put an excluder, then super with a separator and only then put a super without separator. So basically there is a split brood box, excluder, split super, and then as many supers w/o splits as can be managed. Don't know if it will work with 3 queens, but with two it might.


----------



## rrussell6870

I winter threeway nucs, sometimes with supers with long divisions that go all the way through the super and the deep... I think Oldtimer said he had success with wintering threeway mating nucs with divisions still in as well...


----------



## rkereid

AramF said:


> 2nd. If each of three sections is planted with a ripe queen cell at the same time, can these nucs be converted into 3 queen hives? Then they could be supered on top (through queen excluder) with another deep to place extra brood in, or simply supered for honey? Seems it would be an elegant way of dealing with overpupulation, by making bees store nectar overhead.


Just make sure you don't winter with an excluder under the winter stores. The cluster moves up to the feed and the queen can't get through.


----------



## Oldtimer

rrussell6870 said:


> I winter threeway nucs, sometimes with supers with long divisions that go all the way through the super and the deep... I think Oldtimer said he had success with wintering threeway mating nucs with divisions still in as well...


Yes, 3 way nucs winter well in this area, long as they are in the right spot. I only go one box high though. They go through the winter on one solid comb of honey, but once spring build up starts, they need another solid comb, and / or syrup, which they consume fairly quickly, to get them through until nectar starts coming in. Pollen is not an issue though they always have enough. I don't winter pure italians, too many bees and not economical enough, and pure carniolans don't kick off early enough in the spring, I am going into winter with a italian / carniolan hybrid which are sold as early spring queens once my first spring cells are available, which can be any strain.


----------



## rrussell6870

Nice plan Oldtimer... I do somewhat the same thing in my smaller nucs that I overwinter, as well as some of my observation hives... 

Get ready guys, we will be launching fourway minis (half length frames) soon... the beauty of our fourway minis and the threeways (all in deep or medium) is that they can be used on hives like standard equipment and the bottom board can be set on a full size hive to allow the nucs to go through winter benefiting from the heat of the hive... giving you early overwintered queens and pre-stocked mating/production nucs...


----------



## Oldtimer

Sounds great Robert, if it weren't for the freight to NZ I'd take a bunch of those 4 way ones myself.

I think they'll be a hot seller, commercial guys could use them, and guys with just a few hives could benefit from owning one or two of them also.

After I read your nuc designs I considered making some myself, but standing behind a sawbench is the side of beekeeping I don't enjoy so much, (although I still seem to end up doing it!). If I could buy some I would.


----------



## rrussell6870

I know what you mean... maybe I can set up a producer and distributor in NZ or Australia in the near future... the fourways are the most versatile small frame system there is... they can be overwintered on the stand as they are, on a hive using the special bottoms, or stacked up to let the upper units serve as supers turning the three frame holes into six frame doubles... they can be placed on hives with foundation (or empty frames for foundationless) to draw wax and pre-stock frames with brood, food, and bees... or they can be stocked by bulk bees, given a cell and stacked indoors like regular mini nucs, only these hold four nucs/queens per box... they come in deeps or mediums using half length frames... so the bee keeper is not limited by the design of the equipment at all... 

The threeway full length frame mating nucs give the same options, just in a full length frame, holding 3 instead of 4 nucs, but they do not have the stationary divisions, so the boxes can be used as standard equipment if needed...

The singles hole mini nucs can be stacked in groups of four to fit perfectly in top of a ten frame hive as well... and we are working on a new design for the duplex mini nucs to allow them to be stacked on ten frame hives in groups of twos... 

The whole idea of this line is to standardize equipment that can serve multiple purposes and save money and resources for bee keepers while promoting their experience level and the sustainability of their apiaries... I think that the industry as a whole will benefit greatly from it over time...


----------



## Matt Beekman

Robert looking forward to seeing mating nucs on your website. I am currently using the styrofoam two ways from Mann Lake and am not happy. I am about ready to give up stocking them with just bulk bees. The way they are constructed, there are a lot of places for bees to get out with all the screens and poor design of the lid. Even with an inner cover we still get bees spilling out. 
I just wanted to confirm, when you stock your mating nucs in the spring, you just add one frame of brood, a blank frame, 8 oz.’s of bees, a ripe cell at dusk and only close them for 24 hrs.? 24 hours seems like a short period of time. Everyone I have talked to recommends putting your mating nucs in a dark room for approximately 3 days after your add the cell and bulk bees. I would like to be able to make up my mating nucs in the yard and not have to store inside and transport to the mating yard. Any insights would be appreciated. Your breeder queens are going great! Thanks.


----------



## snl

Dr. Russell,
So glad to see on your website that all the new products are sale priced at $1.00! Wow, can't wait until they are available as I've saved & saved! :thumbsup:

Best of luck on your (our) new venture and thanks for all you sage advice all over these forums!

Kindest regards,

Larry


----------



## rrussell6870

Matt Beekman said:


> I just wanted to confirm, when you stock your mating nucs in the spring, you just add one frame of brood, a blank frame, 8 oz.’s of bees, a ripe cell at dusk and only close them for 24 hrs.? 24 hours seems like a short period of time. Everyone I have talked to recommends putting your mating nucs in a dark room for approximately 3 days after your add the cell and bulk bees. I would like to be able to make up my mating nucs in the yard and not have to store inside and transport to the mating yard. Any insights would be appreciated. Your breeder queens are going great! Thanks.


That's correct. But keep in mind that every situation is a bit different... I do this depending upon the weather in that location, what forage is available, and how much time I have to spend there... in some cases, I may use a shop or enclosed trailer to store stocked nucs for a few days... especially if I have run low on drawn mini combs in that location or if the weather is too good, or too poor... somewhere between miserable and beautiful is perfect for just about all things bee keeping... if your bulk bee supply is low, take no chances, put them in doors in a dark cool place with light syrup and a good cell...


----------



## rrussell6870

The fourways are available now in both medium size and DEEP size... giving you 5 deep half length frames, meaning a serious little nuc with plenty of room for a queen to lay heavily and develop well... these have a special bottom board and no holes in the box, so the bottom board can be placed over a full sized hive and you can winter four queens over each full sized hive and have early queens and fully stocked nucs first thing in spring... if you are in the early stages, you can place these boxes directly on production hives and let the hive draw the combs and fill the cells with food, brood, and bees, then set them on their bottom boards giving each a cell and have pre-drawn, pre-stocked mating nucs...

The threeways are also available now and also have a special bottom board that allows you to overwinter them over full-size hives... and the benefits to the threeway is that it uses the standard length frames, that match your regular equipment, the boxes can be used as standard equipment while not using for nucs or queen rearing, and they can be used to produce multiple strong nucs to sell, all from one piece of equipment...


----------



## LT

Hey Robert help me sell some of JN's two way minis first. Have to many for wife and I to handle! LOL


----------



## rrussell6870

Lol. How many do you need to move and how much are you asking for them?


----------



## David LaFerney

Dr. Russell, can you please get your web person to specify what you get with those nucs? IE - hive body, bottom board, inner covers, 1/2 size frames, assembled, etc? Prices look pretty tempting - even for a wood worker like me.

So far I haven't regretted using all mediums, but this is why I tell people I would probably go 10 frame if I started over.


----------



## rrussell6870

The single minis ship unassembled and once you put them together, the bottom is stationary... no frames or feeder. 

The duplexes ship pre-assembled and include everything except for frames and feeders... for the individual hole covers there are two plank covers included and a small telescoping top as well...

The threeways ship with the box unassembled but the special bottom board is pre-assembled... three individual wood plank covers are included but you will need a telescoping top or migratory top to cover the whole box... no frames or feeders... available in medium or deep...

The fourways ship completely pre-assembled... four individual hole plank covers are included and again you will need a telescoping or migratory top to cover the whole box... no frames or feeders... Available in medium or deep...

All of these boxes are finger jointed and specifically designed to handle the heavy use of a high demand operation... the threeways and fourways both have the special bottom boards, and zero vents or entrances cut into the boxes themselves so they can be used on production hives to build comb, act as standard equipment, or overwinter either with or without multiple queens... 

Hope this helps!


----------



## David LaFerney

Thanks. You know for the pre-assembled boxes the shipping would be almost the same if they were full of frames - and it would be like a ready to go, all in one kit. Just a thought.


----------



## rrussell6870

True, but many people already have the frames, so we decided to separate them so people had the choice and the cost could stay low... but for those that do need frames, the frames are packed inside the nuc box when it ships, so the shipping isn't really effected by adding frames to the order. Thanks.


----------

