# Master Beekeeping Certifications



## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

I would pretty much agree. From what I can tell all certification (whatever form) is usually a bragging right. They usually cost a large amount of money (whether payed for over years or all at once) and the results usually are not what would be expected.

I have been involved in two businesses that like to use "certification" of one form or another. I have found that it is almost always nothing more than a bragging right and that many of those who hold such a certificate will in the real world perform below what the certifications claims are. This is not to say there isn't certified persons that have the real world knowledge that would be expected - but I suspect these people didn't start certified but finally got one because of pressure placed on them.

If certification truely is meant to measure the ability of a person to deal with the real world reality of the particular field they are in I can not understand why the employer does not simply test the individual - it may do away with a lot of the complaints they have about their employees not being qulified though they had such and such.

There is another reason to have a title (whether dr., master, phd, etc.) it is to elevate yourself. Kind of a "I'm a (whatever) who are you?".

But that said just because someone is certified (or even if you feel they use it to "brag") is really no reason to get irritated with them.

Mike


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## MeriB (Mar 15, 2010)

Hi Big bear,
I just wrote a reply in Bio Beekeeping that had some of this in mind, Tradition Vs Science as it applies to my practice of nursing. I, too have had certification. It was hard and expensive to obtain.It was helpful in the area I was working in at the time. It gave me credibility with Drs who had different views on the patient. I changed my aresa of practice 15 years ago. It had no bearing on my current area of practice and so I let it go. As a Nurse, I am required to prove continuing education (CEU's) order to renew my liscense. At best, it causes me to read and keep up with latest information. At wost, many CEU's that are affordable are fluff. Neither my liscense nor the CEU's is a ironcald guarentee of my competence but they are my entrance cards to my Professional Practice. Bragging rights had nothing to do with the the certification process i was involved in.
I think this is pretty representitive of any certification program. There are no guarentees but at least it is a starting point in deciding if a persons advice is worth following. I got into this at the urging of a friend who has keopt bees for over 30 years. As I educate myself here and in classes run by bee clubs and other places, I am questioning his methods. I am not saying his advice is necessarily bad, but he has never heard of things that seem to be common knowlege here. I will continue to sample many opinions before coming to conclusions in my beekeeping.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

MeriB said:


> ...I am questioning his methods. I am not saying his advice is necessarily bad, but he has never heard of things that seem to be common knowlege here. I will continue to sample many opinions before coming to conclusions in my beekeeping.


A good point to make here is that there are a lot of real world "experts" or at least very knowledgeable people who don't use the "lingo" of their profession. Either they simply dislike it or they don't know it because they know what they know and don't have much use to learn the temrs others like to use for it. I would look at his bees not if he has heard of such and such.

Not to change topics but I have met a number of doctors and nurses who used their certificates as an ego - bragging right and to elevate themselves above others. I have also met a few that didn't appear to do this and really wanted to do right. Problem is when you work hard on something all the time - you start to lose reality of it in relation with what is really happening. I think that is how we get a lot of the problems this world has (losing the reality and not stopping stepping back and examining it to be sure we are Right).


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

You're referring to 'perspective' Mike. Being able to continually tell the forest from the trees. I agree, even in computer tech, once someone gets so deeply involved , especially in a 'sub-aspect' or specialty area, a 'niche' if you will, I think that it is easy for anyone, certified and educated or not, to lose perspective, which overall, again in my opinion, makes it harder to keep up to date with other aspects of the field.

For example, Iused to help an old farmer who has worked with bees since he was about 10 years old himself. He retired last year at just over 70 years old. That's at least 60 years of continuous, unbroken bee experience. He has forgotten more about honey bees than most people will ever know. He was a successful honey producer, maintaining between 400 and 500 hives at any given time for over the past 30 years or so. He disdained social activities (he always said his wife called him the original grumpy farmer, lol) so I don't believe he participated much in bee clubs and organizations very much.

He had no certifications, but after working with him side by side, I feel he was able to be trusted as a knowledgeable source of information and support in just about anything I could ask him.

He had the rest of the farm to pull him back and maintain perspective. One of his favorite things to say to me was that if all he did was work bees, he wouldn't know nearly as much about them as he did and as far as he was concerned, the bees still know more than he ever will.

Big Bear


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## tnmx (Jan 23, 2009)

Would you not agree that education is important as it pertains to any art, craft or hobby? I would encourage everyone in bee keeping to take classes and learn different was of doing things. There are always new technologies being developed that we do not understand. This forum is an educational tool that for some is the only tool we may have. It seems that some people are offended that someone has invested their time and effort to learn more about something they love. The Master Beekeeper certification does not make you better than someone else at bee keeping. I am sure everyone will agree with that. I would also say that some of the top beekeeper out there have no certification. I do not have a master beekeeper certification. The University of TN is developing a program. I have taken the beginner course and will take the other courses when offered. Will I be better than someone who does not have a certification? Well the answer is no. I do hope to learn something for my effort and am always happy to share anything here on be source.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I feel like I should chip in here as EAS has considered me certifiable. >

Have you ever been "****ed with faint praise?" It's a funny feeling. That's what the initiating post does here. I've been a master beek for five years or so and this is the first time I've had a chance to "Brag" about it. Even the dozen or so Bee Culture articles I've written do not have the byline "Master Beek." (2 0n this site) While I was offered a job with a nationally known package producer, I don't think it had anything to do with the certification.
I'm responding here because, as I usually do, I want the newer beeks to get the full story. The certification is NOT a phone it in event. At EAS you don't get to apply unless you have at least 5 years experience, a master beek to recommend you, and have already done some outreach/education in beekeeping. 
Then you take the test, at an EAS meeting. It's an all day event. In the four areas of: 100 question written exam. A lab exam with 15 or so stations where you get some microscope time, ID diseased comb, ID bee sounds; ID from pictures various aspects of beekeeping. Don't take it if you have never been to a commercial operation.
Then there is the Oral test. You get to respond to 3 master beeks firing questions at you in an attempt to ascertain how you stand up under fire, general knowlege and the likelihood you will be a decent voice for beekeeping. It's how you answer the question that's important.
Then there is the apiary trip. At EAS they truck in a dozen hives or so. One gets to perform, one on one, with another Master beek demonstrating proficiency in the bee yard.

Many fail at their first attempt. I failed it twice. One needs at least 80% correct answers on the written. Once I got 79. Clarence Collison and the committee had no mercy.
Yes, I'm bragging. To get here I listened to 80 invited experts to our club and attended 6 EAS meeetings (30 days of classes/seminars.)I go to schools. I teach 100 hours of classes in beekeeping a year as well as participate in other workshops. For 4 years I spent the winters in FL hanging/working with commercial beeks. 

I have to admit, having someone equate this with a truck-driving certificate rankled a little.
There are Master Beeks on this forum who won't speak up lest they be belittled. Let's stop that. 

Gee. It feels good to finally brag. Thanks for the opportunity.

dickm


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Well stated, Marty. If I had known the title of my post was going to cause such turmoil, I would have captioned it differently. But the point I was trying to make is that everyone is still learning and will continue to learn. Of course, there are lots of beeks without certification who are smarter--or more learned I should say--than I am. My point was not one of superiority, but the fact that there's always more to learn. I don't know why anyone would get their panties in a bunch just because a beek says they're certified. Who cares?

dickm, just read your post. Wow! That is definitely some test. And I couldn't pass it. . .I've never been to a commercial operation. I will endeavor to get the knowledge to do so in the future, however. I will be at the EAS meeting this year and am so looking forward to becoming totally immersed in beekeeping workshops. Hopefully, I will meet you there. You've absolutely earned the right to brag.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Dick, you are not following the rules. I asked that you only post your reasons to support your position. to Belittle truck driving certifications as required by the DOT, which govern safe tractor-trailer operation on the highways is not something to put down.

The education and testing requirements for Master beekeeping certification are no more difficult than those required for Computer network and administration, which I have also earned.

If you choose to be competitive, please start your own thread to do it.


Same goes for you Tia, this is not a thread to complain about your thread. please stick to the discussion and rules as set in the first post. Otherwise, please make use of your own thread.

Big Bear


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Here is what I know. I spent 1000's of hours in a classroom learning electronics for airplanes...literally 1000's of hours. As we were taking each test, i was failing...not because i didn't know the electronics, but because i have a testing disability that noone ever knew about. Anyway, 1.5 years....8 hrs a day 5 days a week learning electronics in airplanes and in helicopters. After I hit the fleet, i was able to get more certifications, was qualified to co-pilot both the F/A-18 and the UH1 Cobra....was certified to either make them fly or keep them on the ground. 6 years of learning and certifications......and when i got out, those certs meant nothing to anyone other than i knew the heck outta some electronics....

I do NOT degrade the EAS Master Beek certification at all, please do not feel like I do. BUT someone like me will never go for the test...because there is a test. It took the USMC over 6 months to finally believe me about my testing problems....so I would never pass. There is a lot of work involved in those tests and passing. I am activly involvedin reading, talking things out, learning from other beeks, asking questions...but schooling is not for me. 

"Society" has said you need that 4 year degree....when i was employing people, most of your "4 yr degreeers never got the job because they felt that it was owed to them.....because they went to college. Funny thing was that if i asked them basic questions, they couldn't answer them. Even had one "guy" not a kid, ask me why i was aking him questions that pertained to electronics because we were ina board replacement world now....which he was wrong....ummmm...anyway.

For those of you who can go out there and get the education, please do, i think it's worth it if you have tthe time.....we all can still learn. I personally won't go for the schooling because it would take me longer to explain that they would have to give me the tests orally if I had a chance to pass....but PLEASE do me a favor...please please please.....to whomever reads this. Do not think just because you have a certificate of any kind that it makes you better than anyone else.....it does not. Its the person that makes yo better...not the paper...


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Sorry, bigbearomaha. Apparently, you run this forum. Last you'll hear from me.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Sheesh! Now I remember why I stopped posting and coming to this site. Too many egos (or lack thereof) out there. Count me out.


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## blueline (Mar 15, 2010)

WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW:scratch:


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

No, Tia, I don't run this forum, but this is my thread, just as your thread was yours.

I made a concerted effort to post discussion rules to keep this an objective discussion to which you did not follow. Plain and simple. 


Big Bear


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>>Dick, you are not following the rules. <<<<
Last I knew, you don't make the rules

>>> I asked that you only post your reasons to support your position.<<<<
My position is that the certification deserves respect. I supported that.

>>>>> to Belittle truck driving certifications as required by the DOT, which govern safe tractor-trailer operation on the highways is not something to put down.<<<<<<
You have me there. I was wrong. Thank you for the guidance. I've logged thousands of RV miles and have the greatedt respect for DOT drivers. I apologize to you and other drivers.

dickm


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

For anyone one else, please read the first post before replying. Not I or anyone else has suggested that continuing education is not a good thing. It has not been suggested that a master Beekeepers Certification is a 'bad' thing. But the topic of getting and possessing such certificate has come up in enough topics as to further my looking into discussing why people support a master beekeeping certification or not.

I have listed many pros and cons of having one in the first post, if one will take the time to actually read it.

Big Bear


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

dickm said:


> >>>Dick, you are not following the rules. <<<<
> Last I knew, you don't make the rules
> 
> dickm


Last I knew Dick, a thread i start is subject to my own direction within the rules of the forum, just as any thread you start, or anyone else starts. if you don't like this thread or topic, you are always welcome to not read it, as you have suggested to others in similar situations.


To keep this thread on track though, Ilook at certifications, my point of view, as something related to what ones 'does' I get truck driving certifications to get a job driving a truck, it is a requirement to get and do that job. Would I have obtained said certifications otherwise, no. not really.

I obtained computer network and administration certifications in order to get jobs and keep jobs. Would I have done so if not job related or expected/required by employers? not likely.

who in the beekeeping industry insists upon one having a master beekeeping certificate before keeping bees? commercial beek employers I would presume. Educational institutes as well perhaps?


Big Bear


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Everybody chill!


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

bigbearomaha said:


> 1) To verify that a 'trusted' certifying group recognizes this certificate bearers abilities to be in line with recognized industry standards and abilities. (directly relate-able to a job or business)
> 
> 2) To indicate said certificate bearer is in line with the thinking and philosophy of a particular group, with social reknown (educational and social use)
> 
> 3) A discussion piece. (a topic starter or like a vanity plate)


In todays society, 1 and 2 are primarily the reason for certs. First one being the main driving force as schools tend to churn out kids that have book learning and no real practical experience. Someones gotta weed out the wannabes.






> What does one "Do" with a Master Beekeeper Certification?


Me? I would toss it onthe large pile of other certs i have. just because you have a cert doesn't mean you know what your doing and doesn't make you successful at what your doing. Anyone can pass a test. its not hard at all. 
Knowlege is easy to aquire, but application of that knowlege is rare to find. AKA wisdom



> One can use it to establish some level of credibility and experience in order to obtain employment in a bee related field.


Well i suppose it can be but i honestly think its used more for getting more money.




> One can use it to convey 'trustworthiness' and knowledge to establish ones own business reputation


???? Trustworthiness?? Sorry but i dont' see that. The cert doesn't magically give character to the individual.



> One can use it to establish they have a recognized educational and experience background to provide instruction to others.


True on educational, but not true on experience. Like i said, anyone can pass tests, and be a booklearned expert. Experience only comes from getting out there and doing it and quite frankly most book learned experts have none that i have met.




> If you have said certificate, how do you use it? in your job? to help others? a bragging point?


To use as a tool to get more money.



> Certificates such as a Master Beekeeper Certificate are often largely scrutinized and viewed with skepticism. Technology in every industry changes over time. "Acceptable" methodologies change over time. Some fields are so vast in terms of approach and type (such as the how many types of honey bees there are, so many different methods of breeding, etc....) That certifications are difficult to cover the entire spectrum and there fore on specialties.


Good, you see the fallacy in certs. They only certify your basic abilities. 




> If you support such certification, please indicate YOUR support and the reasons FOR YOU only.


I don't support or support them. Their a piece of paper. A cert would make absolutely no difference in any decision i might make in hiring or not hiring a individual. ONLY application of their knowledge in a live situation can do that. Then and only then can one make a intelligent decision on hiring.




> If you are skeptical of such certification, please indicate YOUR skepticism and the reasons FOR YOU only.


Certs are given in a pre canned situation. It basically says, yeah that guy knows what a honeybee is and what race it might be and some of the diseases that might be encounterd. Specifically, I have a pesticide applicators license. It follows the same reaasoning and testing of a bee cert. Disease control, types of bees, sanitation, ect ect ect.... 
The test for applicators license is around 200 questions long and you go through the same thing of scenario questioning. Its basically logic and common sense




> I have had to use those certifications in a business/work purpose and even though I am in a position to have need of certifications, I am skeptical about those holding them as I have had plenty of first hand experience of working with others who have the same certifications yet are not able to demonstrate the same capacity to perform as others in similar position.


I too have truckdriving and IT background. Never got a certification for driving a truck. Just passed the DOT physical, got my DL and started driving. They came up with the certs after i started. Now i have all the qualifications to handle hazmat, explosives, oxidizers, and a half a dozen other "certifications" I've driving doubles, trips and other various forms. Certs most certainly do not invoke higher safety or excellence in the industry. I've seen idiots driving every day that have certs and they are absolute Jerks on the road with no regard for safety.
On the IT certs. They started those because graduates with degrees were coming out and couldn't even identify the on off switch on a computer. 
First one that really came out was the A++ cert. Its a joke. I don't have one, and will never have one. waste of my time in it. I do have Sun certs 2.5 - 11 and the ONLY reason i got them was to get more money. I would get my cert and ask for a raise, or go to another company and with the cert they increased my pay by 5 a hour or so.
I never needed any certs in the IT. My experience was that of no one had a certification for the experience i have and had. BTW don't have anything higher than a AS degree either, and i can walk in and land a Sr. Unix admin job making 120 -150 k a year if i so desire. Just can't physically handle the stress anymore after 6 heart attacks and 2 bypasses caused by the industry stress.




> In the end, to me, holding the certification is not proof of ability, it always falls back to evaluating the individual based on what they demonstrate, not they paper they have.
> 
> Big Bear


AMEN To that. I have in the past, interviewed guys with all kinds of certs, and degrees and no common sense. In my hiring process i would require all applicants to fix a computer problem in the computer room. 

It would be a server that i had setup to do failures. They might fix one thing and it would go to another failure, and so on and so on. I would have probably gone through 100 applications or so and then whittle them down to 10 that i would interview, and out of those 10, the one who found the problems, fixed them, and offered a suggestion to increase stability or security got the job. Oh and one thing i would test every applicant that got an interview on was, I would invite them for a interview, and tell them casual shirt pants, no ties or suits cause they would most likely be getting dirty or something. IF they showed up in a suit, or tie, they got the standard 15 min interview and on their way. If they couldn't follow instructions for the first meet, then i didn't need them on my team.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

wolfpenfarm, I listed all those possibilities and options to try and produce a 'fair' list of pros and cons as to why one would seek out/obtain a master beekeeper certification. just for starting the discussion.

As you point out, in the IT industry, you have many who don't pay so much attention to certs as much as demonstrable skills, but many others, especially those with insured/bonded service programs, which demand those certs.

Big Bear


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

If there is interest in discussing the Master Beekeeping certification in particular, fine. If you want to discuss certification in general, take it to Tailgater.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

Once someone posts something, it becomes the property of all on the board, regardless of the intent of the original poster. 

Are there that many beekeeping jobs out there that require a Master Beekeeper Certification? I don't think so. Most Master Beekeepers are working for themselves, and their competence, or lack of, affects them and very few others.

Does a piece of paper make you more competent? Maybe, maybe not. I have seen so many educated idiots, with a wall full of plaques, that it makes me want to puke. 

My opinion of the Master Beekeeper Certification, is that the certification itself, is most useful for the ego of the holder. Who develops this certification? What are their credentials? I don't even think one is offered in Texas, and I hope it isn't.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Hey Barry, in the context of this discussion, I think it's appropriate to discuss how a master beekeeper certification compares to those certifications in other fields.

The requirements to obtaining a certification as those discussed runs across the board.

How does a master Beekeeping Certification fit into the world? does it apply like those relating to jobs that require it, such as those others discussed?

so far, I think the reasons and rationale of the how's and why's of certification in general compared to MBC are relevant.

For example, as discussed with wolfpen, are there reasons to demand someone have a master beekeeper certification for insurance/bonding as with the IT certs we discussed? a fair question. This master Beekeeper Certification just kind of sits there in the world like a sore thumb, but how does it apply? where does it fit in? What good is it?

That's this discussion.

Big Bear


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## jannaMI (May 16, 2010)

I'm new to all of this, so until Tia's thread, I didn't even know you could be certified. It's probably not something I would pursue, simply from a money/time perspective. However, I think that those who are able to do it should be able to brag, after going through the work of certification. Let me rephrase that so I'm following the rules :lookout:- if I were to become certified, I would hope that others wouldn't see it as my desire to be "superior", but rather that I wanted to have something tangible to show to others to enhance my credibility when dealing with the public during educational interactions. Like it or not, the masses are used to seeing certifications as proof of knowledge/education. 



dickm said:


> There are Master Beeks on this forum who won't speak up lest they be belittled. Let's stop that.
> dickm


To expect someone who's certified to never mention it is ridiculous and sad.


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

bigbearomaha said:


> This master Beekeeper Certification just kind of sits there in the world like a sore thumb, but how does it apply? where does it fit in? What good is it?
> 
> That's this discussion.
> 
> Big Bear


I seriously looked into the cert program since i used to live near NC. I thought what would it offer me. After careful reflection i came to the conclusion that it offered nothing but a ego boost and bragging rights. IMO thats not a money maker. I figure that if i am going to run my own hives, do my own work, whats the point in it. I can offer classes and such, as well as sell nucs, honey, ect ect breed my own queens and not need a piece of paper that says i can do it. So what is the point in it. I can see a point in it if i am going to go teach at a university or something like that. But then theres that old saying..... Those that can do, those that can't, teach.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I'm really having a hard time understanding why this thread is needed. It looks to me that it is only those who are offended by someone that has been certified are the one's complaining or making something out of it. If someone wants to get certified, more power to them. I don't see certified members throwing their "status" around on here. This thread feels divisive.


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

jannaMI said:


> \ Like it or not, the masses are used to seeing certifications as proof of knowledge/education.
> 
> 
> To expect someone who's certified to never mention it is ridiculous and sad.


That my friend is the problem. They expect you to be knowlegeable, and educated, but nothing in that cert will show that you are able to apply that knowlege. Thats a whole different art form and cannot be "tested" "certified" and canned in a piece of paper. 

I have seen across the board, in most industries, certified people and its nothing anymore. Everyone has a certification in something. 

Diplomas, degrees, certifications, ect ect ect, and the most capable people i know barely made it out of high school. I suppose i am not so impressed with degrees and certifications in that i have dealt with so many over the years that were complete idiots.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

I will disagree Barry. I am not offended by someone being called a MBK. They worked for that certificate and in reality, they deserve the recognition. I hope that it does them well, and in reality what Janna points out makes perfect sense. Our world, albeit crazy sometimes, most require the certification of something to get a "job". I too looked at the beekeeper program from UGA. BUT, because of my inability to test orally on most things, I chose not to attend. I am ALL about continuing education, and for dickm and Tia, i think based on what you said it took, you do have some bragging rights to a degree. I have learned over time not to judge people if i feasibly can, but being human, am not without fault for sure. I am a prac app kinda guy and sincerely repect the views posted by most members here not based on post counts, join dates or whatever, but based on the knowledge they carry. I am VERY surprised at the number of new beeks here that are asking BEYOND basic questions.....but this is my first pring being a new BS member, so I have no idea what to expect.

The requirements that are required to obtain a MBK certification can and look to be a little daunting. For those of you whom have made that trip and Journey, good for you, i wish that i could join your ranks but the choice not to try is my own and noone elses. I don't BBO is meaning to degrade anyone, and he has asked several people to stay on topic, and i think the thread is valid, but hey, my wife never listens...so i expect noone else either...LOLOLOL


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Sorry Barry, I think you are being touchy here. I stated clearly in the first post what the goals of this thread are and NONE of them are divisive.

Think of it as investigative. There is a MBC, some people support it, others don't. Why? this has come up again and again and always boils down to how people 'feel' about it rather than to discuss real world implementation and application of it.

This thread is not about how one 'feels' about it, it is to discover the real world implementation and use for it. Is it practical? why? Is it necessary? Why?

No need for anyone to get feelings hurt in a practical, objective discussion.

if you want to be offended, I guess no one can stop you, but what's the point?

Big Bear


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

Info on Washingtons states Master Beekeeping program.

These numbers are off the top of my head but are very close.
Program started in 1985
Number of master beekeepers in the state 4
Number of Journeyman beekeepers 42
No count on apprentice 

I have been keeping bees only 6 years, thats not along time , but not a short time either. Like alot of people with bee fever I , read , read , read. And experiment, built a honey house, got a used 20 frame extractor, chain uncapper,made a 12 frame observation hive, long lang hive, kenyan hive, double queen hive, and queen rearing. Not that abnormal for a bee junkie.

We have been teaching beginning beekeeping at our club for several years.
I became 1 of the instructors and have just kinda stuck there, I enjoy it very much.

In talking with our state involved beekeepers, We have a apprentice work book that fits alot of info into a short time frame.

In order to distribute this wookbook you have to be a journeyman beekeeper certified by the state to give the classes. So I did that, not a huge deal,
10 test for apprentice all answers in the workbook. It takes a number of points to become a journeyman and 10 tests,. It took 2 years to gather the points and about 7 months to pass the test, they are given out over time.

The Master program was so hard almost no one would try for it, the beekeepers I sent my test to for grading have been working on theres for 8 years and only had 1/2 the points needed.

The program has been reworked so its not as unobtainable now, It will still take many more years to gather points, from classes , printed articles, holding office in clubs , if I gather all the points I need then I have to log lab time at WSU in entomology.

The biggest benifit I can see from taking this program , it forces you to cover almost all aspects of beekeeping not just your favorite, I like making honey and making queens, but the program covers sting therapy, interstate travel laws, pollination crops, food processing regulations and many more. 

I may never gather enough points to get the master certificate but thats fine to, as long as I keep learning.


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

Hmm ok, lets get down to bottom line. I myself don't like the certs. The reason is industries tend to utilize certifications to keep people out of the business. That is a fact. 

You know it and i know it as we have seen it not only in the trucking industry but also in the it industry. The certs keep qualified people out of the industry. And if it catches on in the beekeeping industry, you can bet that it will keep fellas that have been doing it for 40 years out and put them out of business overnight. Thats just plain stupid and wrong. 

I don't believe that anyone should have to ask permission to do what they love to do and make what money they can from their work. That is essentially what certificaton and licensing is. Asking permission to do what you want.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

bigbearomaha said:


> This thread is not about how one 'feels' about it, it is to discover the real world implementation and use for it. Is it practical? why? Is it necessary? Why?


This is quite subjective, isn't it? It may not be practical for you, but for the one who decides with freewill to get it, it's practical for them. They learn. Is it necessary? I don't know of a situation where it is required. So what? I think we already know the answers to your questions. They're subjective and personal. To try and make them into something they're not will only create division. There is no "right" answer. It's a choice, unlike other careers that require initial or continuing recertification.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

wolfpenfarm said:


> And if it catches on in the beekeeping industry, you can bet that it will keep fellas that have been doing it for 40 years out and put them out of business overnight.


Well, it hasn't. We can "what-if" this to death or we can talk about what it actually is.


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

Barry said:


> Well, it hasn't. We can "what-if" this to death or we can talk about what it actually is.


I understand what your talking about but the mentality these days in industries is to try and standardize based on a baseline. Instead of co-oping together as a group, utilizing all forms of experience in the field. Its just that certs is a way to implement a control over the industry, and isolate those who do not have them out of it. Not a productive aspect. And while it isn't happening now, it doesn't mean it won't happen in the near future. it used to be in the IT industry you didn't need a cert. in the 90's it was first started by a company that offered certs to it professionals to show as bragging rights on resumes, then guess what, it became a industry standard and required. 

Its not if it will happen its just when it will happen.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I think that doing the work to get the MBC is admirable. It shows dedication to the practice of beekeeping. I will probably never do it, but I think that it is a nice thing to do.

I think that it is perfectly acceptable to list the MBC in a person's signature on beekeeping forums. Does it prove that they are better beekeepers than anyone that doesn't have one? No. Does it prove that they know something about beekeeping? Yes.

This is the internet. I imagine that some posts here are made by some 400lb person in their underwear sitting at their computer with a family size bag of Doritos and a Big Gulp. They have read a bunch of posts and suddenly have 500 hives and years of experience.  They way that they convince someone that they are right is by belittling opposing opinions and talking "louder".

But this is the internet and so we really have no way of knowing if your hives really have survived 10 years without treatments or that is just your personality on this forum. At the same time, I have learned a lot from this place. I remember back before the internet when I was learning about beekeeping and how hard it was for me to understand bees. I have a much clearer understanding now, which is from both experience and this forum.

So I ask that those of you that have a MBC to add it to your signature along with your name. For those offended by that....well get over it.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

I think it is nap time. Relax.

I'm not offended someone is certified, or that they say they are - doesn't bother me. My post was basically try to point out my opinion of certs of any kind.

Tia, I must say the title of your post did catch my attention - I couldn't help but think, how does one become a master at beekeeping? I mean that is like a master lion keeper? They are wild and unpredictable (many times at least). But it doesn't bother me if you want to have a Master Beekeeper cert - really none of my business.

BigBear, the farmer you mentioned is very much what I was thinking. From working with animals I know (I guess) what they want - me to leave them alone as much as possible. They want their care that is NEEDED but after that they want you away from them.

I had no intention of antagonizing anyone with my posts. Sorry if it did.
Mike


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Barry, my questions are objetive. your answers may be subjective. but the answers we are looking for are not do you 'like' certs, it's how is the certification usable. Does it have a practical application in the commercial or other aspect of the beekeeping world?

You can argue semantics all day long, the gut of this topic is to see where the Master Beekeeper Certification is applicable.

We have seen how certifications in other fields are used ( and abused at times) I still only hear you talking about how you feel about this in stead of discussing the point which is how is the certification relevant, to you.

Tell us, do you apply it in your career? We'd love to know. Right now all we are hearing is how great it is to have it, but to what purpose? just for having it?

If you think there is applicable value in obtaining the certification, tell us what it is, where it comes into play. 

So far, all we have is emotional cheerleaders, but no practical application.

Do you use your master beekeeper cert in one of the ways I mentioned in my first post? tell me so we can all see how it is applied practically.

Again, this is not an argument, it is seeking examples of practical application.

Big Bear


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

An MBC shows that the holder has reached a masters level of competence in beekeeping. It is offerred as part of a course of study by universities, some of them online.

While an MBC doesn't appear to be a required qualification for any beekeeping related jobs, does any other type of livestock have master's certification as a requirement for employment?

Is a Master's Certificate required for employment by a poultry producer?


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

WLC said:


> ...does any other type of livestock have master's certification as a requirement for employment?
> 
> Is a Master's Certificate required for employment by a poultry producer?



Never one I met. In fact I think if I ever asked such a thing I would walk away rather red faced. I have never heard of any cert required to work livestock (except maybe on a "eco farm" or government run setup). Usually (as far as I know).


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

WLC said:


> An MBC shows that the holder has reached a masters level of competence in beekeeping.


I'm sure that it is supposed to show such competency, but it is no guarantee.

and maybe because other animal/livestock production doesn't require might show an equivalent non-need for one elsewhere. 

So, WLC, is it your position then that a MBC simply falls into the third category of social relevance/vanity plate status?

That's what I get from your post. If I am incorrect, please clarify.

I have been hoping that some people actually in possession of a MBC like maybe DickM might post again and discuss exactly how they see their certificate 'in action'. What they actually 'do' with it. How does it further their ability to act or work as a beekeeper in general, or in specific.

I really don't know what having such a certification accomplishes beyond one's own self education and having something to show for their time spent studying and taking tests. Certainly we have all agreed it is not a pre-requisite for working with bees at any level.

I can see if a 'card carrying' certified beekeeper of Master level or equivalent getting some perks from possession, like getting discounts at supply and equipment stores. or perhaps placement on recommeded lists of a instructor or speaker pool, etc..
Is there anything like that? does Dadant or Brushy mtn offer such perks to master beek cert holders? I don't know. maybe they should.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

> So, WLC, is it your position then that a MBC simply falls into the third category of social relevance/vanity plate status?
> 
> That's what I get from your post. If I am incorrect, please clarify.


You're not far off of the mark, but I would say that it's more of an act of self actualization. This is akin to individuals that get degrees in certain fields that make it hard for some of us not to say, "You got a Master's in what?" 

However, that being said, it's the journey that's important to those of us that have devoted time, effort, and money to getting to the next level.

What do I think that an MBC might be good for?

I think that it qualifies the individual to instruct beekeeping courses.

That's not such a bad thing now, is it?


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## honeydreams (Aug 10, 2009)

After reading the posts I can see both sides but I agree with Berry whats is being asked the answers can only be given subjectively and so with that egos get hurt.


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## checotah (Apr 4, 2010)

I am sure that the cert would be a good thing to have on your wall. I have a stack of certs from hazmat response to computer networking. The certification is only as good as the people or company backing the certification test. I personally would not find it helpful to have piled on my desk with the others. I think beek's would be much better off with a good reputation and standing in the beekeeping community.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

WLC, As a matter of fact, it's not a bad thing. To be more specific, I just visited the EAS Master Beekeeper page and found this...



> PURPOSE AND GOALS: There has been a growing interest in beekeeping in North America, particularly in the past decade among hobbyists. Because of the continuing growth in this interest, there is a need for competent bee masters to provide education and assistance to beginning beekeepers and serve in other capacities in the community as experts in beekeeping. The Master Beekeeper program has been developed to certify qualified beekeepers to serve this need. Initially, this program was developed by Dr. Roger A. Morse at Cornell University. The program has now been expanded by the Eastern Apicultural Society of North America to other areas.
> 
> The purpose of the Master Beekeeper certification program is to identify and certify people who have a detailed knowledge of honey bee biology, expertise in the proper practices of beekeeping, and can present this information to the beekeeping and non-beekeeping public in a detailed, accurate, clear and authoritative manner. The goal of this program is to certify that those who are awarded the Master Beekeepers Certificate are competent at a college level in the four areas where they are tested.


What I gather from this is that the EAS has only the intention of identifying 'Master Beekeepers" for their own purposes of providing educational opportunities to the non-or new beekeeping world.

Ultimately, it is an 'in-house' certification that applies directly to their intended purposes and has meaning primarily to members of the EAS.

Their objective is not in directly making use of or having influence beyond their group.

Which is fine. That makes more sense to see it as a group or association recognition of the EAS than to try to extend it's intent and purpose beyond that into the 'larger' beekeeping world.

It's akin to the Toastmasters training and having certified "Master Toastmasters"within their organization.

so if one is a member of the EAS, I can see it having some meaning for them.

It would be similar if my group here in Omaha had a Honey Bee Conservationist certification (which we do) that is primarily relevant to members of our group and those who associate with it, such as other conservation groups and organizations, my bee store (which I offer discounts to said bee conservationist certified holders).

Looking at it this way, instead of trying to make it a universally accepted certification makes more sense, at least to me.

Big Bear


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

checotah said:


> I think beek's would be much better off with a good reputation and standing in the beekeeping community.


It's not an either/or. Both can be had by the same beekeeper.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Bigbear, that does make sense. How many of us have had to take the IHEA certified, hunter safety courses?

Maybe there are EAS certified, beekeeping courses out there somewhere?


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

After digging up a few other 'Master Beekeeper' info pages from other colleges and association's, it seems that only Georgia thinks their course has direct application to business, at least in terms of one running one's own bee related business.

Cornell says it's program is directed to prepare people to pass the EAS certification.

Florida and University of Nebraska and several others state their programs are primarily for self education and personal advancement.

Again, if one is a member of the EAS or some other group or assn that associates with it or some other group similar to it, I can see the point, it means that they are credible within their group and those that associate with that group. Very cool for them and congratulations on accomplishing something that has meaning to you and your peers.

However, if one wants to thrust their Master Beekeeper certification out in public as if it were a universal badge, to you I say, be prepared for people to not take it as importantly as you do. To them, not a part of the group you are certified in, it may likely not have the same relevance. Don't be offended. Discuss it in context, keep it in perspective. Explain to the non-group member what it means to you and let it go at that.

Now I, as someone who is a member of a few trade groups and clubs/assn's can relate to accomplishing something that is important to your peers in that area. But I don't expect my achievement to have the same meaning to a similar group in another state except that they can 'identify' with something similar in their own group or assn.

Big Bear


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

I am assuming then that one who does not tote the line on bee evolution, chemical treatments, the "science" of bees, etc. will not be qualified for the cert.? Because the must show "proper practices of beekeeping" - which the certifier sets - which I guess is a unv. or college - which means tote the line, especially the evolutionary/"science" line.

Mike


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

That, I personally do not know Mike. I do beleive the general requirements for the test are posted online, at least for the EAS test. For the others requiring tests, again, those requirements of study I think are posted online ni most cases.

I did not explore those sites much beyond looking for intent.

All in all, I cannot say it would hurt one to know the workings of chemical treating and 'traditional' methods of beekeeping, particularly if one will be using said certification as endorsement in seeking employment in someone else's apiary. Their yard, their methods.


Plus, it may come in handy to know the workings of such treatments, even if you are not a practitioner of them normally so as to better know what to expect and what to do in case you are asked to step in and 'help' bees coming from such a situation or provide accurate information in order to better provide alternatives.


One need not give up their personal values, methods and practices to learn about others though.

Big Bear


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

> Certificates such as a Master Beekeeper Certificate are often largely scrutinized and viewed with skepticism.


I wouldn't say "largely." I see a few who discount education, experience and training across a variety of fields, be it beekeeping or science. I "largely" view those people who denigrate and belittle educational accomplishments with skepticism.

Wayne


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

This thread got way off topic (I am afraid I posted a few comments that didn't help keep it there). Bear I don't know it is right to tell Tia and the others their not following the thread rules if all others don't get corrected.

If it will help I will go back and blank out my posts (except the first which I think was on topic).

Mike


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## oldenglish (Oct 22, 2008)

Lots of good discussion, personally I like the idea of an MBC. To me it says that this person has a level of knowledge and I should be able to trust what this person tells me.
What I dont like is the fact that every state has its own program and some are easier (or harder) than others. I have read of one beekeeper who has earned their MBC but on the blog they write about how they are having to get advice constantly.
Here in WA the MBC is hard to earn, we only have five in the whole state and only one has been earned in the last 5+ years. The way it breaks down is Apprentice level Certification a class $10 and a multiple choice open book test get you this certificate, next is Journeyman and you need the following, the applicant to be a member of a local and/or state beekeepers association 
and a minimum of two years experience 
A field test at the applicant's apiary 
Knowledge of colony management, public relations, state and federal laws, honey judging, sanitation, economics 
obtaining 30 public service points 
Students are expected to acquire information from beekeeping books and journals and other sources. 
A series of exams are required covering each section of the course. 
Journeyman testing will be in person, proctored by a Committee member.
Finally you have the MBC and this is what you need, five years of accumulated experience, 
thirty additional public service points, 
laboratory experience, or other efforts appropriate to the course of study and approved by the MBC. 
A workbook containing notes, photos, sketches and references of the student’s work will be graded to certify completion of the course. 

We dont get many new MB's as few of us have access to labaratories.
I feel that until we get a national certification then the actual MBC is kinda pointless.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

bigbearomaha said:


> However, if one wants to thrust their Master Beekeeper certification out in public as if it were a universal badge,


I'd like you to point out where anyone has done this.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Did I say that anyone has or are you just assuming?

No, I did not say someone "has", I said "IF".

If you want me to stop posting here Barry, just say so, otherwise, please, don't read into my comments, I will say exactly what I mean.

Big Bear


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

oldenglish said:


> Here in WA the MBC is hard to earn, we only have five in the whole state and only one has been earned in the last 5+ years. The way it breaks down is Apprentice level Certification a class $10 and a multiple choice open book test get you this certificate, next is Journeyman and you need the following, the applicant to be a *member of a local and/or state beekeepers association*
> and a minimum of two years experience
> A field test at the applicant's apiary
> Knowledge of colony management, public relations, state and federal laws, honey judging, sanitation, economics
> ...


I think if you read the underlined areas you see a problem.
Once again - if you don't tote their point of view (even down to what they expect you to do socially) you will not get certified.

I can't say how much I dislike the idea of a national certification.

So you basically have a choice. You either give in to what they want you to believe or you tell them what they want to hear. Either way would be wrong.

Mike


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## Throttlebender (Mar 30, 2010)

Bear it's all pretty clear that you're not a fan of this particular certification and don't give it much merit. And obviously that's your prerogative, so please don't pretend that you're being impartial with this thread.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

I hope people can stop, step back and remember we are only talking about beekeeping - and it's certifications (along with other stuff). It really is not anything so important to get upset over. There are much more important things.

Mike


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## Throttlebender (Mar 30, 2010)

That's very true Mike


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## oldenglish (Oct 22, 2008)

So maybe I should have said "Standardized" instead of National. However knowing that almost no two beeks will ever agree on anything bee related then a standard cert is never going to happen. Also while one states master Cert is easier to get than another states apprentice level the cert of all states is going to be worthless.
One example of why this will never work, one club member lost points on lighting his smoker, because he did not light it for the yard test, he had it on hand if needed but has not smoked his bees in five years. Everything else he did during the test was fine, including bee temperment.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

throttlebender, why does it matter what my opinion is? you have an opinion too. the point is, their are 'feelings' about certs and there is a practical aspect to them. this is to discuss the practical aspect.

I hold certs in various other areas, so I appreciate the value of them in the workplace, at least, as far as employers wanting people to have them.

I beleive I have supported my personal opinion on the world workplace value of a master beekeeping cert. with info directly from the certifying groups. is there something not factual or incorrect?

Please do let me know.

Big Bear


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

bigbearomaha said:


> ... why does it matter what my opinion is?


Because, though you pretend in your opening post to be soliciting imput from Master Beekeepers, this thread is really all about your opinion that their certificates are worthless.

No wonder no MBKs are picking up your bait.

I know half the Master Beekeepers in the State of Maine (we only have four.) One is who I can go to for advice and the other is the beekeeper I go to for nucs or locally raised queens. I know that they know their stuff, in part because of their EAS certification.

Wayne


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

ok, you folks really need to quit projecting.

I have stated before, and I mean it, I do not disrespect people wanting to be certified, educated, etc... i just do not personally see the need for such a cert in the business/work world as there seems to be no real application for it.

nowhere have I said I put down or look at cert holders negatively.

you all need to learn to read what is written and not read into it what you want to see.

I say what I mean. It's great to educate oneself, I just don't agree that it's a necessity.


Big Bear


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Used to, the title of 'Master' in a profession had a very significant meaning. The master beekeeper certification is an attempt to make people think your certification has the same meaning as a true Master.

An Apprentice is trained and studies under a Master.
A Journeyman has completed their training, but works for a Master.
A Journeyman becomes a Master when they become the business owner, and earn their living by working in their skilled profession.

The present Master Beekeeper Certification has nothing to do with your ability to earn your living, working for yourself, in a bee related occupation.

You may learn many useful things about bees and beekeeping by becoming certified, but that piece of paper does not make you a Master in the truest sense of the word.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

:doh:


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## Eyeshooter (Mar 8, 2008)

bigbearomaha said:


> WLC, As a matter of fact, it's not a bad thing. To be more specific, I just visited the EAS Master Beekeeper page and found this...QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Wait...5 pages into this thread and you "just visited" the EAS website? Please tell me you had already done that prior to questioning people who simply pursued an interest and spent the time and money in an attempt to become better beekeepers. I actually look forward to being able to spend the time with instructors who are willing to show me the proper microscopy techniques needed to ID various diseases, teach me more about bee biology, treatment techniques (whether I follow them or not, I think it is still good to know all the options), breeding, apiary management, etc. I, personally, think this will be fun and I look forward to the opportunity and think it may make me a more well rounded beek. Will I do it for the certificate? No, I'll do it for me BUT I will take the tests because I want to know how I've done in my studies.
> ...


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

yes, I get it, typo, incomplete thought. it isn't necessary to get a certificate.


Big Bear


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

bigbearomaha said:


> No, I did not say someone "has", I said "IF".


That's what I figured. More "if's". I apologize to any beekeeper who has the MBC. I guess around here we create "possible" scenarios and let you know what "we" think about you, should you ever fit that scenario.  You've been warned, if you brag about your certification, there are people here who won't like you for it.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Eyshooter, no, this isn't the first time I visited those pages, I was saying that at that moment in time, I had just been there to copy some quotes. thank you for assuming.

and while this thread was instigated by the topic coming up in another thread, it isn't about that other thread.


Thanks for visiting.

Big Bear


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

wow barry, heaven forbid you should ever disagree with an idea. 

guess if one isn't part of your good old boys club, they can't express an opinon without being stepped on huh?

you know, if all you do is go looking to be offended, eventually you will find it.

sorry not everyone fits into your everyone must agree club.


btw, no need to apologize for me, I said nothing wrong. except to not just take a piece of paper blindly. geez, what a rotten guy.

Big Bear


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

bigbearomaha said:


> If you support such certification, please indicate YOUR support and the reasons FOR YOU only.
> 
> If you are skeptical of such certification, please indicate YOUR skepticism and the reasons FOR YOU only.
> 
> ...



Since NOONE seems to have read the premise to the thread....it was about YOU...not anyone else. Why is it that we cannot have a discussion about what YOU think without all the bickering. This was PLAIN AS DAY to me....but hey, i don't read into it too much. His question was a legit one, it was not to belittle anyone....and noone has remembered that he said he respects it......jeez people. He said what HE thought....and people lambasted him for it and read into what he said. This is the problem...just answer the question.....ABOUT YOU please....man


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It's clear where this thread came from. Had there been no mention of MBC in Tia's thread title, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The "personal feelings" were stated in her thread and then they got deleted. Now we're here and I'm responding to BB's "if's"

"However, if one wants to thrust their Master Beekeeper certification out in public as if it were a universal badge, to you I say"

I'm done responding to this thread, I've made my views clear already. I don't have the MBC nor do I intend to get it, but kudos to those who do.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

I am with you Barry, Kudos to those who do..one day maybe i can get them to give me the written test orally..........this thread was read into way too much


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## Throttlebender (Mar 30, 2010)

Dev,


The "man" at the end of your post has me chuckling hard for some reason! I just picture this really frustrated kid looking at his buddies going, "Come oooon guys! Your team was first last time! Gaaaah!!!!


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

yes becasue a search of "master beekeeper" turns up no threads at all. I did say that the idea came from that unfinished discussion, but is that all you can see? I guess that's all you want to see.

For those who want to keep arguing instead of just posting your ideas on the certification, I hope you have enjoyed it.

it's been interesting to see the hype.

For those that want to actually discuss the idea, I will reply. 

Big Bear


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Throttlebender said:


> Dev,
> 
> 
> The "man" at the end of your post has me chuckling hard for some reason! I just picture this really frustrated kid looking at his buddies going, "Come oooon guys! Your team was first last time! Gaaaah!!!!



I was laughing too....i mean JEEZ already....i am a frustrated teen now


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## Buffalolick (Jan 26, 2010)

I just earned the certified level (entry) of the Ga master beekeeper program. Spent a couple of days in the beautiful north Ga mnts with a hundred and fifty or so beeks rubbing shoulders with folks that are recognized to be experts. I had a lot of fun and learned a lot. As to the practical application of my new certification well..... I make no bones about that....I will use it in marketing myself as a beekeeper. Both for my bee removal services as well as my honey sales. In time I will also use it when I sell queens and nucs. I don't have any objective way of telling anyone if that certification is translating into an advantage. I look at marketing as a big picture kinda thing and every little thing is helpful. A small tag about being certified might make a difference in getting a swarm/ removal call vs the random craigslist post. I retail my honey and so in a face to face interaction with john q public certification tells them I am serious about beekeeping. I understand it is possible to be serious about beekeeping without certification so don't get me wrong. I'm talking public perception. Again, I have no way to objectively measure this but I believe most people will view certification in a positive way and opt for the services and products of a certified beek vs non certified. so to sum it up for me participation in the GMBP is a chance to network, learn, meet experts, and add to my marketability in a way that will be a competitive advantage.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

I think it was obvious that the discussion stemmed from the other thread - but I don't think that automatically makes it bad. Attitudes sure do though.

The internet is an interesting thing. People (or at least some) would never think to treat someone face to face the way they will on here.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Thanks to those who would encourage one to study for the testing. Bigbearomaha, You may have cost the forum Tia, a nice lady beek with something to contribute. 

The answers to your questions was heavily implied in the questions. You work both sides of the street and then hang back and say "Who, me?"

You brag about your 2 certifications and then talk about certifications as useless. How would you react to a thread on your certs asking what they were good for; why did you pursue them; Are they for bragging rights, etc?

For those who want a real answer to my motivation, I'll try. I became obessed with bees 10 or so years ago. (Had hives in the 50s). As I learned, EAS came up. A week there, with serious beeks and beginners and teachers....was a great experience. I found out about the certification and set my sights on it. I am very competitive and love a challenge. I found myself back in a place that was familiar; I was learning again. (Like college).

If you think it's good for anything or opens any doors, or carries bragging rights....you miss the point by a mile. I seem to remember a piece of paper, but could not find it now. The payoff is an internal thing. Mastery is one of mankinds important drives. It gives the people I mentor confidence (and me too). It motivated me to study in a way I would not have without it. A creature with no heart, no lungs, no blood a brain the size of a comma, no real circulatory system, that can do all of the bees magic? Who would not want to master the understanding of that creature. 

I'm here (not too often now) as the antidote for those who may harm this forum with misinformation or personal ego building. And because I owe a debt to this forum. It's where I started learning.

Thanks, Barry. Why don't you do some bragging; you've earned it.

dickm


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I'm surprised how difficult the AES, & WA state programs are.
Kudo's to anyone who complete them, & they earn my respect.

However there might be other programs out there that give them away, for next to nothing. I don't know, & that would make a big difference in my opinion.

I've earned job related certs, that an idiot could get. I think you get my point.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

To bad man does try to master the important things. But runs the race breaking the rules.

I don't really get why a certificate (diploma, PHD, Doctorate, etc.) should make someone trust that person more. It means you basically are saying "I trust him because those people say I can" (change all the hims to hers if you prefer). All the knowledge (or at least what is thought of as that) in the world will still be used for wrong by people who don't try to do right, so do you trust, honor, and respect the wicked man because he has "knowledge"?

It doesn't make much sense. Maybe I am the strange one (I will remain so if allowed) - but trust, honor, and respect has very little to do with what a person knows - it should be based on what they do - how they live. Our society (the world's societies) has a major problem with judging things right because it respects persons. I'm not going to go into all of the things this topic of certification could point out - You most likely own a Bible. Check it. See what it says about honoring, respecting, trusting. Of course I speak to those who aknowledge the Word. It really can become very clear how everything fits together to show how things are not done right.

I think I will go to bed. So many of these topics could be used for a lot of good, but never seem to get there.

Mike


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

bigbearomaha said:


> who in the beekeeping industry insists upon one having a master beekeeping certificate before keeping bees? commercial beek employers I would presume. Educational institutes as well perhaps?
> 
> 
> Big Bear


I would say no one would insist that a person have a master beekeeping certificate before keeping bees. If that was so, I doubt anyone would bother to start keeping bees.

Now, if you are going to go out and apply for the State or County Bee Inspector position, they might like to see that certification.


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## Throttlebender (Mar 30, 2010)

But unfortunately Mike, trust, honor, and respect while all wonderful attributes, won't make you qualified to open someone's chest and swap out a faulty heart or make you capable of sitting in the left seat and flying 200 passengers safely to their destination. Certification and licensing do that.

It matters to people for a lot of reasons. Some are more important than others certainly, but the dedication to complete a course of study as well as it's actual completion, do mean something.....what that ends up being.....?


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

hey dick, thanks for taking the time to read things all the way through.

first of all, you will note I said I got my certifications as a matter of employers requiring them. 

You may also note, I brought my other certs in the context of comparing how certifications are required for getting and keeping employment.

"I" cost no one nothing, if I were to quit due to your good old bye attacks for daring to question how a cert is applicable, would you then have cost the forum me? I doubt you would see it that way.

Now, pay attention, I will sum up exactly what I have said in plain english, especially in the first post which apparently no one bothers to read.

I ask if a master beek cert has a practical application/use, I go on to give exampless of how such a cert could be used.


I ask that people give examples as relates specifically to them, to keep the perspective grounded in the " I did" not " I know a guy".

I express my personal opinion that I see no practical application of the mbc *in relation* to having had to get other certs, such as those I mentioned and the circumstances under which those were gotten. (amazing how clear things are when you keep them in context)

I provide information showing that the people who actually do the certifying Do Not have the intention of using said certification in the direct ly applicable world of employment, it not being a requirement that most, if any employers, would ask/demand.

that's it in a nutshell. At no time have I ever suggested it was not a good idea to educate oneself or to have one becasue it improves ones ability to educate others. 

I have only expressed my personal skepticism that there are people in this world who mis-represent what having one means. There are plenty of examples of that happening in other areas, it's only reasonable to expect that even beekeepers could do so as well, they are after all, only human.

BTW, I hope no one else ever gets inspiration from another discussion, enough to start a new discussion to more fully cover it, heaven forbid people want to take a discussion beyond the brief mention it got somewhere else.

I have said nothing wrong or incorrect. You folks complaining are getting your noses bent out of shape due to your own trying to read into this discussion what you want to see.

oh and btw, no, I don't think that ANY certification should be accepted blindly as evidence that the holder is capable of what the certificate represents. Question everything and judge people's abilities based on how they do their job, not on how a piece of paper says they can.

There, now I have summed and clarified for the last time.
If you want to keep twisting and turning things out of context, be my guest. 

Big Bear


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Findlaybee, Do inspectors have to have that cert to get those jobs? I don't know. It could make sense that such a position might want something like that.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Throttlebender said:


> But unfortunately Mike, trust, honor, and respect while all wonderful attributes, won't make you qualified to open someone's chest and swap out a faulty heart or make you capable of sitting in the left seat and flying 200 passengers safely to their destination. Certification and licensing do that.....


Yes they do ("Certification and licensing do that") but in the hands of men who use knowledge for wickedness you won't want him flying that plane or.... don't get me started with the medical system, so let's drop that part. So certification places all the emphasis on knowledge (I know sometimes background checks are part) but none is based on is the man righteous or not. So the most important part (not to surprising) is lost.

Mike


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

MikeJ said:


> So certification places all the emphasis on knowledge (I know sometimes background checks are part) but none is based on is the man righteous or not.


As it should be. If you want to get into discussing moral/religious issues, please take it to Tailgater.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Wow. 9 pages, and not much additional light on the original question/topic.

Ok, I plan to get the Master Beekeeper's Certificate. Not sure when, too busy working for a living, and trying to get the bee side of my life built up.

I did earn a Bachelor's Degree, and a Master's, both required to prove I had the knowledge to enter parish ministry in our denomination, prior to my ordination to the Christian ministry. I went on to earn a Doctor's degree. Not because I had to, but because I wanted to improve my knowledge and abilities. Also because I had a couple of friends who didn't think I could. :no:

Now, why would I want the MBC? For the knowledge gained. To become a better beekeeper. For that reason I would encourage any beek to at least start the work in such a program. If the program is written and developed well, one can only learn and improve as a beek. Will that certification translate into increased income? Perhaps only as it makes me a better beekeeper. I have no desire to become commercial, write books, or go on the lecture circuit. But I know how much I don't know, and want to change that. 

It would be interesting to have a list of locations/sources of all the Master Beekeeping courses available...I haven't looked, maybe one is available. Just not enough time in life right now. 
Regards,
Steven


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

StevenG said:


> I did earn a Bachelor's Degree, and a Master's, both required to prove I had the knowledge to enter parish ministry in our denomination, prior to my ordination to the Christian ministry. I went on to earn a Doctor's degree. Regards,
> Steven


After which, did you call yourself Bachelor Steve or Master Steve or Doctor Steve? I bet not, since you don't here. So why, do you suppose that those who have studdied the material and taken the tests call themselves Masterbeekeepers? Pride? To get others to follow in their foot steps? Why?

If it is simply studing and passing a test, and not years of hard work under the eye of a Masteer, why not call it something else? Like Certified Hobby Beekeeper or Tested Sideline Beekeeper?

I have an Associate of Applied Sciences Degree from Ohio State University's Agricultural technical Institute. Should I call myself an AAS Beekeeper? (Some call me something different.) Associate Beekeeper Mark Berninghausen? Nah, just Mark Berninghausen, beekeeper. Thank you.

I know what Tia was trying to do w/ her Thread Title. I hope she doesn't abandon us completely. She has as much to contribute as anyone else does.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

So, BGHoney, the MBK cert involves not only beekeeping, but law enforcement, food handling laws and other things, that do not affect most of the beekeepers. 

rah rah


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> After which, did you call yourself Bachelor Steve or Master Steve or Doctor Steve? ... I have an Associate of Applied Sciences Degree from Ohio State University's Agricultural technical Institute. Should I call myself an AAS Beekeeper? (Some call me something different.) Associate Beekeeper Mark Berninghausen? Nah, just Mark Berninghausen, beekeeper. Thank you.


Now Mark, I know why you don't refer to yourself that way... just sound it out! :lpf: (Sorry, too good to pass up!) The first time I received a letter from the institution that granted the degree, it was addressed "The Reverend Doctor..." and I said "Who dat?" I tell folks to call me Steven...the rest seems a bit pretentious. However, I have discovered when I go to college or university campuses for various reasons, I need to use the degree title..the pecking order is amazing in some places. 

For me, the reason for certification or degrees is what it benefits me, in knowledge, wisdom, better able to do what I want to do. Others obviously have different opinions.
Regards,
Steven


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## chrisreedtn (Apr 11, 2010)

In Tn, The UTK master beekeepers course is required for the 50% cost share program. I.E. take this and get 50% off the purchase of bees, nucs, hives, etc..


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

StevenG said:


> ...the rest seems a bit pretentious.
> Regards,
> Steven


That's how I feel about most titles, most of the time.

Met someone from England once, at a beekeepers convention, could have been EAS. She, who had a Doctorate herself, wondered why everyone was so insistant on refering to the speakers as Dr. so and so all of the time. Amen. Does that mean that they are better than nonDoctors?


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## Throttlebender (Mar 30, 2010)

In that arena, field, or specialty? Yes. Yes they are.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Then Masterbeekeepers better be also or the title, the certificate, is worth less.


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## Honeycomb (Jan 15, 2010)

Just my two cents - I am new to beekeeping and don't know that much about it but in my opinion I think getting certified as a master beekeeper is cool. I totally get how the title 'Master' can come off as pretentious. But it still doesn't mean that a person who holds that title is pretentious, and a person certainly doesn't need a title in order to be a prideful snot. A person could have all the credentials to perform surgery but they could still be a bad surgeon. It's like that with everything because we are human. Some people are good at things and some people aren't, certified or not. That doesn't mean that there is no point in getting certified. People have different ways of learning. To me the process of getting the masters certification is just one way a person can challenge themselves to learn more about beekeeping, themselves, and others. I personally can get easily sidetracked when it comes to truly learning all the stuff I want to learn about, and something like this certification process is a form of self-discipline that could be very helpful. My bachelors degree is pretty useless to me in the real world but for me personally it is a tangible reminder to myself of the self-discipline it took to stick to it and study hard and learn and do things that weren't necessarily easy for me. It pushed me outside of myself, outside of the realm of just doing things my way and forced me to focus on things in a way I ordinarily would not have otherwise. I think that any educational program is like that because of the structure and the fact that it is not being run by oneself. Getting certification is just one of many ways that person can set a goal and accomplish it, and I think it's a positive thing. I don't know at this point if I will ever go down that road, but I do think it is a worthy goal for anyone, and very cool! If I got a master beekeeping certification, what would it really mean? It would mean that I have achieved a certain level of knowledge and proficiency in beekeeping. I would never let the word 'Master' stop me from getting the certification, though some people clearly have some hang ups on the use of that word in this context. And that's understandable. The way I get around that is to just see it as a springboard for continued learning and improving, toward which there is never a final arrival of full knowledge or complete mastery. But it points in that direction.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Honeycomb, in actuality, no one here has said that all people getting or holding said master beekeeper cert are being vain, only that we all know people who can be.

I just got an email reply from the U of Florida in regard to their "Master Beekeeper" program and they also say that the certification is not intended to be a universal certification. Moreso intended for self education and an inhouse gathering of people they can call on to educate others in the same manner.

There is nothing at all wrong with that.

Personally, I would think that when people announce that they are a certified "Master Beekeeper" it would be helpful for them to mention the certifying source. ie.... " I am an EAS master Beekeeper" or "I am a U of Florida Master Beekeeper." This provides some perspective and gives the reader/listener an idea of the the context in which the title has relevance.

I would think that to simply refer to oneself as a "Master Beekeeper" without clarifying from what certifying source"knowingly or unknowingly implies a universal standing. Which seemingly does not exist.

Not all "Master Beekeeper" certificate programs are the same. For example, the University of Nebraska offers a 3 day training course called a "master Beekeeper" course and at the end, participants are given a certificate showing their completion. it is an intense three days, very full of activity and information to be sure. How does that relate to the EAS master Beekeeper process which seems to require substantially more of the participant?

both people walk out as certified master Beekeepers, yet not having the same requirements met.

Mind you, I am not slighting the U of N program, I am only noting the procedural differences.

The universities of Florida and Georgia seem to almost present their master Beekeeper programs as a subprogram of their entomology programs. Again, a different procedure and preparation than the EAS and U of N, yet, they are leaving the program identified as "Master Beekeepers".

So far, the only one of these programs to actually describe their Master Beekeeper program as directly related to the business of beekeeping is the U of Georgia in preparing people to run their own comm bee biz.

I think it's great you want to expand your knowledge and experience as a beekeeper by pursuing such a program, I wonder now that we see some differences in the certifying sources and the intentions of their programs, where will you look to to fit your interests?

Big Bear


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Wow, just skimming through this thread, I say, we all get out and work some bees enjoy the sunny days and hopefully put on some supers.

BTW, it's a great time of year to enjoy beekeeping.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

It's raining here Keith, but you have a point. 

Big Bear


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## Throttlebender (Mar 30, 2010)

Keith, that's perfect time and the perfect suggestion.

Cheers:thumbsup:


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## Honeycomb (Jan 15, 2010)

Big Bear,

I just want to clarify that I don't think people here are accusing those who get masters certification as being vain or pretentious. But as I was reading all this talk about the whole point or practicality of it there were certain comments that stuck out to me that made me feel like it was looked down upon, or that there were concerns about others viewing one as superior or thinking they are better because of a piece of paper or questioning why it couldn't be called something else. In my own mind, not to say it's the reality, I can see how some people could be turned off by getting a master beekeeping certification from the start just because they would feel strange calling themselves a master. I think that is my own personal hang up because even if I went through the process and was really experienced, I would still feel a little uncomfortable calling myself a master, no matter what it was I was accomplished at. One comment someone said really resonated with me about the real historical concept of being a master, where one would be in an apprenticeship under a real master, for years, until the person ultimately became a master, and that was their living. Even the toughest master beekeeping certification process does not follow that traditional format in the same manner, where at the end of it a person has a bona fide career - not that it can't lead to that in some way. So for me personally my only real criticism is how one uses and interprets the word 'Master'. I also do find a little frustration in that not all Master beekeeping certification is equal. Although, I would not let my feelings about that word stop me from achieving something that I still think is cool. I really don't know if I will ever aim for certification myself, but if I did I would have to go for the toughest program. As for now, I am just reading a lot on these forums, as well as beekeeping books and journals and hoping to help someone who may be moving a bunch of hives to the Big Sur area. The latter possibility is just that - a possibility that may never happen but I'm hoping for it.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

One thing I find interesting is something Countryboy mentioned in how the term has historically been used relative to a tradesman..

If you look at "Master" in terms of a trade, is there historical evidence perhaps that some farmers or landowners in need of pollination and/or honey production but not wanting to do it themselves necessarily would hire someone to take on the role of the "Master Beekeeper" and in so doing, the "Master Beekeeper" for that business/farm/property would themselves bring in assistants to work as apprentices, journeyman, etc...?

This might explain the popularity of using the term for the education oriented certifications, having such historical connotation. Thus, even though the "practical" use of the trade is not much active, the authority/relational knowledge/experience concept survives?


Big Bear


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_If you look at "Master" in terms of a trade, is there historical evidence perhaps that some farmers or landowners in need of pollination and/or honey production but not wanting to do it themselves necessarily would hire someone to take on the role of the "Master Beekeeper" and in so doing, the "Master Beekeeper" for that business/farm/property would themselves bring in assistants to work as apprentices, journeyman, etc...?_

In medieval times in Europe, the honey belonged to the owner of the tree. (They would cut a hole in the side of the tree, remove the honey, and then use mud and rocks to brick up the hole so they could come back and easily reopen the hive.) I don't recall hearing of any fulltime beekeeping operations until bees started to be kept in skeps or gums or pots.

The Romans kept bees in clay vases and pots. The Roman army discovered that a clay pot beehive made such excellent artillery ammunition they nearly exhausted the supply of bees in central Italy at one time. I think it would be safe to assume the Roman army had someone designated to handle the live artillery ammunition beehives.

The early American colonists elected one person to care for the beehives they brought with them. Since the beekeeper could not produce enough honey to make a living, that beekeeper carries the dubious distinction of being the first welfare case in North America.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> The early American colonists elected one person to care for the beehives they brought with them. Since the beekeeper could not produce enough honey to make a living, that beekeeper carries the dubious distinction of being the first welfare case in North America.


Actually, since he was 'elected' to the job, that would make him the first public officer or employee, would it not? as he was performing a duty tasked to him by the community. That's a bit different from a 'welfare case" who chooses not to or is otherwise unable to perform tasks to make a livable wage.

Also, If I recall colonial social custom correctly, folks were often recognized and acknowledged by their 'trade' as it were, so if one were indeed the community beekeeper, I think it's likely many would refer to him as "Master Beekeeper" upon meeting him in public.

Big Bear


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bigbearomaha said:


> Also, If I recall colonial social custom correctly, folks were often recognized and acknowledged by their 'trade' as it were, so if one were indeed the community beekeeper, I think it's likely many would refer to him as "Master Beekeeper" upon meeting him in public.
> 
> Big Bear


BB,
While working at Colonial Williamsburg from 1979 to 1984 I did some research on beekeeping in Colonial Virginia and The Colonys. None of the cook books had any mention of honey in the recipes. Beehives were left to decendants in wills. Beeswax was on the list of Colonial Domestic Product Report issued by the Governor of the Colony of VA. Mostly it went to Madiera. Bees came to the colony from England by ship. Beekeeping was part of the home garden. (Womens Work?) I recall a list that said so and so had 20 skeps of bees against the back wall of his house. Honey was sold in barrels of small size, such as firkins. 

I never saw any mention of beekeeping as a trade, in colonial times. So, I doubt that anyone was refered to as a Master Beekeeper. 

Tradesmen were of a class above common farmers, as opposed to gentlemen farmers and plantation owners, so to call a common farmer a Master, imo, would have been unheard of.

Washington had bees. Jefferson wrote about the malipona in South and Central America. Encyclopedias of the times had chapters and illustrations of beekeeping, beekeeping equipment and people tanging bees and harvesting swarms.


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## Throttlebender (Mar 30, 2010)

Not all certifications are based on science. People that study for and are ordained priests and ministers for example.

UGH......I'm frustrated with myself for even allowing myself to be drawn into this. Obviously i just can't help myself.

Hey, seriously, if you are happy that's all that matters. I personally have issues with born agains and the like, feeling it's their duty to spread the word. 

So, on that note, I really will restrain myself. Promise.


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## Throttlebender (Mar 30, 2010)

Barry, you might just be the quickest moderator I've ever seen.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Actually, since he was 'elected' to the job, that would make him the first public officer or employee, would it not?_

No. Colonists set up councils long before they brought bees over.

_as he was performing a duty tasked to him by the community. That's a bit different from a 'welfare case" who chooses not to or is otherwise unable to perform tasks to make a livable wage._

A 'welfare case' is one who is subsidized by taxpayer dollars. Whether or not they have community duties is irrelevant to the taxpayer subsidy.

This provides some interesting info. They were called "Bee-Masters" back in the olden times.
http://www.google.com/search?q=bee+...ine_result&ct=title&resnum=11&ved=0CEIQ5wIwCg


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> BB,
> ...I never saw any mention of beekeeping as a trade, in colonial times. So, I doubt that anyone was refered to as a Master Beekeeper....


Logical to assume it was considered no more than another product of the farm? I doubt it would have drawn much attention - or at least not like today where it is very much a novelty type thing in many people's minds.

Country - I imagine by the definition given of "welfare case" that everyone in america is one then? I know of know one who does not take part in "sharing" in some form of tax. Whether it is public school, grants, student loans, retirement - you pay taxes but you gain more value than you pay.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

This is not the thread to discuss the definition of "welfare". Suffice it to say I disagree with what I think is CB's 'extreme' interpretation. The points of the colonial usage were hypothetical based on discussion presented by CB and was trying only to draw those ideas out more. If someone has concrete examples of historical "Bee Masters" as tradesmen, maybe later than colonial times, that would be interesting.

My point in chasing that idea was that there must bee some reason all these various certifying sources want to stick to using the label "Master Beekeeper" regardless of the intent of their program. It would make sense if there was a historical context such as we have been describing to motivate such dedication to a title. Otherwise, as someone else suggested, we would likely be seeing a proliferation of "technician" or "Junior/Senior" designations instead.

Looking at it as a trade designation, It would be quite the accomplishment for someone to 'know all' or even endeavor it in regard to honey bees and beekeeping. not only are there the differences in approach ie 'traditional' as we have seen the treatment and management methods develop since Langstroth, organic/natural as in the 'counter' methods and techniques to the 'traditional'.

There are multple approcahes and methods in breeding and queen raising to know of, biology and behaviorial studies that are always being done.

in educational terms, there is a lot of work and study going on in the honey bee world to have to keep track of if one were to try to "Master" all that or even most of it.

It was suggested to me in a PM that perhaps some people upon seeing/hearing the title, it invokes notions of domination, control and authority. I don't know about that in this day and age, but some folks do seem to hold on to emotional thinking longer than others, so for some, I guess it would be an issue.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bigbearomaha said:


> It was suggested to me in a PM that perhaps some people upon seeing/hearing the title, it invokes notions of domination, control and authority. I don't know about that in this day and age, but some folks do seem to hold on to emotional thinking longer than others, so for some, I guess it would be an issue.


I think, "Yeah, so what?", then I think, "Show me how good and successful a beekeeper you are.", then I think, "That's nice.", then I think, like most degrees, "That and $3.50 will buy you a coffe, I guess."

Does it indicate anything in particular other than someone who has studied information for a while and taken a test? It doesn't necassarily mean the person can hamdle a hive of bees, from what i have seen.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

personally, I prefer to determine one's skills as they are performed. A certificate usually means you were able to regurgitate memorized information on a test. In some cases, you are actually required to demonstrate said knowledge/ability which is better than just a written exam I guess. Ultimately, for me personally, when someone tells me they are a "Master Beekeeper" it means little to me having no perspective. It would mean more to me if, for example, like DickM says, " I am an EAS Master Beekeeper." By including the EAS, if I have knowledge of the EAS and it's intentions in their certifying process, it is more relevant.

Think of it this way. Say BeeSource ( for hypothetical purposes) put up a page where one could take an online test, go ahead, make it difficult. make it so one must have 95% or better accuracy to pass then for those that do, let them print out a certificate that says they are a "Master Beekeeper". Is it valid? Does it have the same merit the EAS program? Is one with a BS certificate any less of a Master Beekeeper than someone from the U of Florida program?

The point is, for someone to really appreciate a label like " Master Beekeepr" one must have something to make it relevant. Something to indicate why having that designation is important to anyone but the holder and the certifying source.

Having a certification to be a 'qualified' educator is certainly a good thing. It gives the people hiring that educator something to rely on in terms of how that educator has demonstrated to someone else the ability to educate and know what they are talking about. Provided of course they have knowledge of and are supportive of the certifying source as well.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Those with knowledge generally will pass it on, most of the time free of charge. Thats what we do here isn't it? Every time I do a sub job i am looking for the people to work with me to be open to learning...for thats the reason I am there in my opinion. I look for guidance from the people here and others I have met. The day I stop learning will be the day I am dead. Recently i was talking to a well respected retired commercial beek, and he said and i quote ," Do you know how many Master Beekeepers stop here and take classes for a week. It doesn't demean the program, but I offer real world advice and knowledge based over 50 yrs. of techings from the bees......that's the difference."

He wasn't being ****y or demeaning, he was referring to real world application. He charges for his classes, but thats the only way he makes his living, that and selling bees, and amazingly, people are lined up to take his classes and to buy his bees...including Master Beekeepers. I do NOT disrespect the MBK program in any manner because i cannot do it myself and the quals look pretty daunting from the course I have reviewed......

When i woke up today, i remember the things I learned yesterday, but do not dwell on them, imagine what I will know when I wake up tomorrow from the things I learned today. I've got hundred, literally hundreds of certificates in Electronics thatnks to the USMC, and am even qualified to fly front seat in an F/A-18......Wonder if they will let me borrow one. The answer is NO...LOL...bummer too, because they are fast. As long as you ALL are willing to teach me about bees, I will listen. It DOES NOT mean i will foloow your advice, but that will be my choice when givn the advice right?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bigbearomaha said:


> Say BeeSource ( for hypothetical purposes) put up a page where one could take an online test, go ahead, make it difficult. make it so one must have 95% or better accuracy to pass then for those that do, let them print out a certificate that says they are a "Master Beekeeper". Is it valid? Does it have the same merit the EAS program? Is one with a BS certificate any less of a Master Beekeeper than someone from the U of Florida program?


You might be on to something there BBO. If "Master Beekeepers" identified themselves as Beesource Master Beekeepers oe EAS MBKs or U of F MBKs maybe that would mean something. Perhaps not much more than what Master Beekeeper means now, but a little more.

After all, I can go on line and buy a Doctor of Divinity and never take a class or test. Not like Rev. Steve had to take.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

If nothing else, it would give us an idea of how the certification has relevance. The EAS program is probably the most well known and it is intended for the EAS group and members to identify those it trusts to educate others according to the values of the EAS.

So for folks on beesource who see someone identify themselves as an EAS Master Beekeeper and they (the reader) are part of EAS or a supporter of EAS, it will have relevant meaning to them.

If someone announces they are a certified Master Beekeeper from their local assn, well, then to anyone else o the forum from that assn, it will have relevant meaning as well. perhaps not the same relevancy to folks not in that assn or group, but if nothing else, it shows ones commitment to make themselves better educated where honey bees are concerned and I think all of us can appreciate that.

It may not hold much weight in a discussion or argument, but I guess ya gotta start somewhere.

At least then readers would not be given or mistakenly assume the title is meant to have universal application or intent.
Given this understanding, when someone mentions or announces they are a Master Beekeeper, they might be asked by someone else who the certifying source was and prevent misunderstandings and un-necessary accusations.



Big Bear


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

bigbearomaha said:


> If someone has concrete examples of historical "Bee Masters" as tradesmen, maybe later than colonial times, that would be interesting.


Interesting perhaps but irrelevant. We needn't structure our trades education on what existed hundreds of years ago. Probably not many Master Electricians in Colonial days I would guess, but most people accept the title now as relevant. (Or perhaps there is a similar "I don't accept their credentials and I've just as much knowledge as they have and a better work ethic and I haven't burned my house down yet so there's all the certification I need" school.  )

And as for having to elaborate on where one has earned their Master Certificate in order to use their title, I suppose you would require your physician to flesh out his or her title of Doctor by including the medical school from which the degree was received?

If you need to know where your doctor went to school, he or she will tell you or at least show you the diploma which hangs on the office wall of every prrofessional I come in contact with. Similarly, you can ask your local Master Beekeeper where he or she received the certification. No one needs to have to document the source of their credentials in advance for the random person prone to scoff at them.

Wayne


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

You already have it in your mind that people possesing such titles or certificate s should not be questioned as though they are some ulimate authority . that's fine if that's how you choose to see it.

I do question certifications of anyone I don't know. It's how we learn about them. it's how we build trust. if I find out a 'doctor' got their degree from the Engelbert Humperdink College of Medicine in the mail, I likely won't be visiting that person as a doctor. Even though they do have a medical certificate on their wall.

This nonsense about blindly trusting anyone with a piece of paper and never questioning a person with a title is simply that, nonsense.

If I were to walk in a room and announce I were a Master Carpenter or Master Plumber, I would expect others, especially others in the same field, to want to learn about my background and just how well I demonstrate the knowledge the title says I have.

Not only do they want to size up the others in the field, they want to be sure that the "Master Whatever" isn't going to be an embarrassment to their field in their area.

As a matter of fact, I recall reading a story in the national news headlines where a man with several seemingly highly respected medical certificates and degrees was found to be an imposter and not really a doctor at all.

Gee, I bet those who never questioned felt a bit unhappy about that.

We are all beekeepers here, or soon plan to be, if we cannot question each other as fellow beekeepers then who can? Is such a certificate a license to tell everyone else to be silent and obey them?

nonsense I say.

and with that, barry is more than welcome to lock or delete this thread as he chooses, as far as I am concerned. I too am done with it.

Big Bear


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

bigbearomaha said:


> You already have it in your mind that people possesing such titles or certificate s should not be questioned as though they are some ulimate authority .


With your first sentence you indicate that 
a: you haven't read what I wrote, 
or 
b: to illustrate your point, you intentionally ignored what I wrote in order to fabricate and spread a false meaning to my words.

Anyone who actually has read and comprehended the post would have seen that I said "If you need to know where your doctor went to school, he or she will tell you or at least show you the diploma which hangs on the office wall of every professional that I come in contact with. Similarly, you can ask your local Master Beekeeper where he or she received the certification."

That should be enough to put to rest your illogical (and completely fabricated) conclusion that I believe "such titles or certificate should not be questioned." I would think even the most cursory reader could understand the simple and clear words that I wrote.

As I said, I didn't get past your ill-informed first sentence. I assume there was more illogic to follow.

Wayne


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bigbearomaha said:


> Given this understanding, when someone mentions or announces they are a Master Beekeeper, they might be asked by someone else who the certifying source was and prevent misunderstandings and un-necessary accusations.
> Big Bear


Which is exactly what I asked Tia and what set off this whole discussion.

She answered me on another Forum that she has NC Beekeeper Certification. North Carolina State I believe.


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## llang (Aug 13, 2010)

Coming from the academic world, I am going to chime in here.. granted I have not read all 11 pages of posts, but I read enough to get a feeling. I believe the "Master Beekeeper" certification implies a "philosophical ethic". Certainly there are those who may use it for quick short term gain, but that is true of all "advanced degrees". To me, a person that pursues this demonstrates an open and ongoing mindset of continual learning. He/She should remain current in the field and examine new ideas with an open mind. 

Having been involved with many PhD students (I am not a PhD) you quickly learn there are 2 types. The good ones that become excellent students, because they learn knowledge is humbling - the more you know the more you realize you do not know; and those who believe they know everything and they are always right. The first type of students approach problems with open minds and problem solve. The other type tend to "do it by the book". The same would be with Master Beekeepers. 

I have never been a fan of "testing", and I certainly appreciate posts where people indicate that they could not pursue this because they are bad test takers. However, I believe a well designed test measures true knowledge rather than wrote knowledge. 

My 2 cents worth....


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## Chappie (May 8, 2010)

Lots of folks seek certification for the wrong reasons. If you want to learn more so you will become a better beekeeper; I say go for it.
If you want a title so you can feel superior to others, you are on the wrong path.
Education can not hurt. I attend bee classes when I am able to and I have always learned new things. I have been learning about bees for over 50 years and I hope I will continue to learn.
As I mentor new beekeepers I am asked questions that keep me on my toes.
It pays to refresh constantly what you know or think you knew about bees as the bees too will teach you new things.
We didn't have some of the problems we face today 20-30 years ago as some of the new pests have been brought into the country recently and we had to learn how to deal and treat for them. Some folks allow their bees to become resistant to pest by not treating them and allowing the strong to survive. Others dump chemicals into the hives automatically because someone told them they should. Think for yourself and do what you find works for you.
I wish everyone would take what they do seriously and realize that some folks get certificates or diplomas that should be only used so they can park in a handicapped parking space. I am only joking; but trying to say that you only get out of a bee class or school what you put into it. Ask lots of questions of your teachers/mentors and learn all you can. If getting certified helps you along; then do it. It is no other persons business what you do and what you learn. Just don't try to feel superior to anyone as you don't learn everything in a bee class. I feel badly when the new beekeepers with the shiny new certificate starts teaching at the local clubs and guide folks down a wrong path. New beekeepers need to know who they are learning from.
Find a mentor and work your bees for the best education available today. 
The world of beekeeping is always changing and we should all want to keep up with the latest information that can help us keep our bees alive.
Let's all strive to help one another and try to see the other person's perspective and maybe we will all learn even more.


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