# Queen cells and laying worker hives???



## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

It is one of those iffy doings 

It will some time works and some times not if you have extra q cell it is worth a try it has worked several times for me

feed them also


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks Velbert.

I just (today) grafted 20 cells using my Nicot Cage and I only have enough mating nucs for 10 cells, so I am likely to have a few extra cells a little over a week from now...

If it has even a chance to work, I think I should give it a try. On the other hand, a post on the same thread I started on the Bee Forum suggested that the chances of the virgin being accepted will be better if the LW hive is shaken out before the queen cell is inserted. Do you agree or are the chances of success about the same whether the LW hive is shaken out or left alone?


-fafrd

p.s. this is for an elderly female beekeeper in a relatively urban setting, so I am not sure she will be able to manage shaking out the hive by herself nor whether it is something she will be able to do in her surroundings. For these reasons, I only want to advise her to shake out the hive if that is really going to significantly increase the chances of the queen cell being accepted...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I posted a response on the Bee Forum version of this thread, but figured I should try this one as well... shaking them onto the ground away from the hive just before daylight while setting up the hive in the same place with a caged queen will yield the best results overall... there are a few other methods listed on my site that may help as well... wouldn't worry about the urban issue when shaking them out, the foragers will return to the hive, find a mated mother, and revert to the necessary jobs to make the hive work again... the others will drift around a bit, most will find their way back to the hive soon enough, but by the time they do, the new queen will already be accepted.
russellapiaries.webs.com/apps/forums/topics/show/4380935-queenless-hive


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## basser59 (Nov 2, 2009)

fafrd, is there any way to put some frames with uncapped brood in this hive?
If there is you can put 1 frame per week for three week, by that time they normally get rid of the laying workers and start making there own queens from the last frame of brood.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

I have seen laying worker hives construct queen cells and feed them only to tare them down I think they can tell they are not queens

I have used the nicot to raise queens 
I also have found in early spring when the queen likes to lay drone brood they will do it it in the nicot system

If you were check the cell diamenter it is bigger than a worker cell but smaller than a drone cell 

One Spring about the 20th March the queen laid in several of the cell cups I put them on 2 cell bars of about 16 each the started about 90%
Before they were sealed had maybe a little better than Half of them sealed they were very nice large cells 

Made my nuc up a couple of days before the hatch date and when I went to put in the q-cells the next morning they were all torn up 

Had more coming off they were doing them the same way so i examined one of them It was a drone pupa so i ck a few more same thing and they ended taring them down. boy was that a set back they did it to 3 grafts before i figured it out

the cells were bigger than a worker but smaller than a drone so she went ahead and laid drone eggs

what i did was found a pop straw that fit just right into the cell and cut me 110 sleeves to fit (cut shot enough they are just about flush with the top of cell) into them and it works every graft, no more drone eggs laid in the system

So if they happen to real large q cells and they start tearing them down 2-3 here and there check one tear it open and see before you make up your nuc to put them in.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

If its just starting, I'd get a frame of eggs in there right away. Try to change their mind. 
3 weeks, could be a new queen learning how to lay.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Velbert,

thanks for this heads-up - I will definetly keep this in mind!

It's my third time using the Nicot Cage and I have never had this issue before, but I have never used it this early in the season before and the most recent brood in the hive before I caged the queen has been half drone...

I've salvaged 5 swarm cells from another beekeepers hive that just swarmed, so I should have some new queens for my mating nucs in any case, but I will watch to see how the Nicot graft progresses and your 'straw sleeve' idea seems like a very good improvement for next time...

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

KQ6AR said:


> If its just starting, I'd get a frame of eggs in there right away. Try to change their mind.
> 3 weeks, could be a new queen learning how to lay.


KQ6AR (and basser59),

frames of brood is unfortunately not an option - she does not have any other hives and she does not know any nearby beekeepers who can help her. The easy thing to try is inserting a queen cell, and since I have extras, it is basically a free try to save the hive.

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

rrussell6870 said:


> shaking them onto the ground away from the hive just before daylight while setting up the hive in the same place with a caged queen will yield the best results overall...


Don't have a spare queen for her right now - will it help them to accept a queen cell as well?




rrussell6870 said:


> wouldn't worry about the urban issue when shaking them out, the foragers will return to the hive, find a mated mother, and revert to the necessary jobs to make the hive work again... the others will drift around a bit, most will find their way back to the hive soon enough, but by the time they do, the new queen will already be accepted.


My concern was not that the bees would not make their way back, but that she may not have any place 100 yards away from her very small backyard except the middle of the street to shake them out in (which may not make her and/or her urban neighbors comfortable...).


-fafrd


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

fafrd said:


> (This is a repeat of a thread I just started in the bee-forum - since it is related to queen cells, I thought it woul be appropriate to post it here as well...)


Well then I'll repost here... I get plenty of LW in my mating nucs, especially if the virgin fails twice. I always give them a cell anyway, and often it is accepted without adding brood.

There was an article in the back of ABJ a few years ago...actually a summary of papers published. They compared LW in Italians and Russians and the % of each to accept cell. Wanted to know if Russian LWs would more readily accept cell. Both were about 75%


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## little55 (Aug 6, 2008)

I was thinking you might think of using some type of cell protector for the cell to keep them from tearing it down.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

MP, 
We see that too in early springs where the cells get chilled at times...(like the freeze followed by nearly a week of rain in the 40s we just had... ugh...)
I think in this case he only has one set of cells, all due to hatch at the same time, and no brood to play with... so if there are no mated queens to install after shaking all of the bees out, I would at least go with a virgin queen installed in a cage... also may try a pseudo queen... if there are no virgins... its worth a shot... if you need one, just pm me a mailing address and I will drop one in an envelope for you...


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

try a pseudo queen

R, 
Mind telling us what a pseudo queen is?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Sorry. It's a brand of qmp (queen mandibular pheromone) delivery system that is produced by a Canadian company named Contech... it is sold by Mann lake as "bee boost" (I think)...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

rrussell6870 said:


> MP, I think in this case he only has one set of cells, all due to hatch at the same time, and no brood to play with...


Bob, I only add cells and get acceptance in many...not all. Often I see these LW mating nucs trying to raise a cell, but of course only have unfertilized eggs. So, adding a cell is imitating what many of them do anyway. LWs are a pain to deal with, and I usually don't in production colonies. With mating nucs, I have the cells and it's no big deal. I also have frames of brood from strong mating nucs that need to be knocked down a bit. So we usually give them a couple MN frames of brood and a cell.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I often put one in a laying worker mating nuc (as MP says) and they often accept her. Sometimes they don't. A frame of open brood at the same time seems to help a lot. A frame of brood every week for three weeks is almost guaranteed to work with or without the queen cell...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks all (and also for the patience with my double post).

I'm gonna try the queen cell because it is all I have easily at the moment, and it is relatively 'free' since I have more than I can use. At 75% chance of success (or even 25%), I think it's definetly worth a try.

In response to little55's suggestion, am I better off installing the queen cell in the open (pressed into the side of a comb) or protected by one of my Ncot-system hair roller cages?

-fafrd

p.s. I appreciate everyone advice on my question and when the dust has cleared on this, I will post the outcome


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Quick question for MP and MB (who seem to have the most experience with LW nucs and queen cells):

Would you install the queen cell protected in a hairroller cage or uprotected and 'out in the open'??

thanks,

-fafrd


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Do the hair roller cell protectors allow the virgin to emerge into the nuc, or is it a cage from which she must be released? I'm nof familiar with them...I thought hair rollers were for rolling hair. I would say no if you have to release her by hand.

I have used regular cell protectors but don't anymore. I have good acceptance without them. I do use them when requeening a queen right colony with a cell, so it might help you a little with acceptance.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I'm with MP... I wouldn't cage her then try to release her later... just use a regular cell protector and you should be fine.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks guys. The hair roller cages that come with the Nicot System can be placed around the cell with the bottom left either open or closed.

If closed, you would need to open the cage by hand to release the virgin queen.

If open, the bees could get to the cell before it emerges, so I am not sure what the point of protecting the cell with an open cage would be unless access only from the bottom would improve the chances of the cell not being destroyed.

MP, When you use a cell protector to requeen a queeright hive with a cell, if those cell protectors allow the bees to access the cell (and the virgin queen to walk out on her own), do you have any idea why they help with acceptance? Is it because protecting the sides of the cell prevents the laying queen from getting to and destroying the cell? And if so, I guess that may be the reason an open-bottom cage could help with introducing a cell into a LW hive, right?

-fafrd


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

fafrd said:


> Is it because protecting the sides of the cell prevents the laying queen from getting to and destroying the cell?


Probably. The cells are always opened from the side. Another theory is that the bees don't recognize the cell, maybe because the bees can't really "embrace"
the cell or that pheromones don't pass through the cell protector as easily.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

That's right... pheromones are passed through touch and bees walk on the protector instead of straddling it and touching the cell, so the queen never picks up the scent and goes on the hunt... it may also have something to do with breaking up the shape, but even with the protector, I have seen a needy colony open the cell prematurely, and a queen locate a cell, chew the tip open (although it is usually the sides) and chew up the tender queen inside...


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks guys. I hadn't thought about the fact that every time I have seen a cell after emergence, it has been from the bottom, and every time I have seen a cell destroyed just prior to emergence, it has been from the side...

I'll give the hairroller protector a try and report back on how things ended up working out...

-fafrd


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

It would be nice to know... I have a few hundred of those things in a box in my shop. Lol... I check out all of the "gimmicks" out there, so I know when to warn people against them... the hair rollers look like pocket size cricket cages to me, and yrs I am going to test that theory as well... 

Not knocking the nicot, its just a whole lot of extra work only to skip on quick step... not for me... we also noticed that my bees (all with some level of vsh) would clean out the eggs if the queen was released from the grid... must not "sit well" with them either. Lol. But I can see how it would be helpful for others.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

rrussell6870,

you're a pro and I am just a slightly-crazed hobbiest  (and one with poor eyesight and poor manual dexterity to boot)!!

The Nicot system is very easy to use for an amateur who only breeds a few (5-20) queens once or twice a year. It is also the easiest way to take larvae donations out of other hobbiest beekeepers hives (which is what I have been doing).

I've had the same problem you mention with eggs being removed once the queen is released from the grid - they really seem to like to store nectar in the cups unless there is a queen there in the grid to give them other ideas.

I've gotten around this by leaving the queen caged all the way until the larvae are harvested (4-5 days).

From my latest round (just grafted), I saw everything from empty cells, to fresh eggs, to 'laying-down' eggs, to larvae that were probably less than 6 hours old, to the one-day-old larvae that I harvested.

I've not made use of the cages before (to my regret, my last batch of beautiful queen cells ended up getting destroyed by a virgin that emerged early and knocked off all of her sisters).

Will let everyone know how the queen-cell-introduction-in-unclosed-hair-roller-cage-into-LW-hive goes...

-fafrd


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I think the hair roller cages are for preventing the situation that you had... place them carefully on the cell bases on day six and you shouldn't have any more troubles (providing that it is warm enough at night where you are... the cages are quite large, so the nurses can't use their heat to protect the cells from the chill once the cages are in place). 

My bees weren't storing any honey in the grid... they more or less seemed like they just didn't want anything raised in it at all... lol.

I think the issue that I mostly have with the grid is that all of my queens laid it full within a few hours, so there is quickly a "laying space" issue... we like to let our queens lay as much as they want and we exchange the excess brood with empties to use the brood frames for manipulating cell builders and stocking nucs this time of year... we tried simply releasing them from the grid after a few hours (grid completely full), but they just laid the entire frame that the grid was on while the nurses cleaned out all of the grid cells... so then we decided to remove the queen from the hive completely... same thing... cleaned the entire grid out in about 3 hrs.... next we tried pulling the grid frame as soon as we released the queen from it... but no matter what type of colony we put it in, they just cleaned it out... :-( 

From my experience with it, you basically have to leave the queen no matter what (in my case 3 days).... which is just not worth it to us.... unless its mid summer when queens slow down a bit, or maybe mid winter in a lab colony... 

The only process that it eliminates is the actual transfer, which to me its much less complicated just to graft... I was curious to see how the queens performed considering they would have had no "hunger period" at all (when grafting, even if you transfer with jelly, the first thing that the bees do is clean it all out and replace it... this may only take an hour, but it still has been theorized that this period could cause a swarm or supercedure queen to perform better than a grafted one... not that anyone has proven it, but still worth verification I guess) ... but I guess we will just have to wait and see thus fall after I finally breakdown and say ok. Lol.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Concerning laying workers - Does anyone notice the appearance to look somewhat between a worker, a queen, and a drone? I noticed two suspected laying workers - one appearing as a "slightly short queen" (her abdomen wasn't quite as long as an ordinary queen), the other appearing as a thick-bodied "drone" without the wrap-around eyes. Both were seen coming out of cells headfirst (perhaps in the act of laying eggs). Both have a typical, bald thorax. I marked both of them.

It is too early to know for sure as they have very few drawn-out cells, most are occupied by capped brood. Brood pattern is not very solid, not entirely shotgun. There are uncapped larvae present, I couldn't detect new eggs without my loupe. I will check again Monday with magnification for spotty, multi-egg pattern. No queen cells were present.

I checked them mid-afternoon, while most of the foragers were out. These were a small, feral colony that swarmed late last October. They made very little wax over the winter and are increasing very slowly, approximately 3 frames drawn out in a 6-inch circle.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I've seen laying workers in action. They're worker bees not intercastes. Absolutely one of the funniest things you'll ever see. Poor little bee trying lke mad to get her abdomen all the way down into the cell. She forgot to get her wings into the cell too, so they're stuck outside...like yours would be if you fell into a hole and caught your fall by your elbows.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks, Michael.

That does sound funny. It also makes me suspect that the slightly long one was indeed the queen, as she knew how to hold her wings while laying. She may be a queen on the verge of getting old, running out of eggs, losing some abdominal size.

The fat one was perhaps an invader from a colony of larger bees, or just a drone with small eyes. It looked more like a California Golden bee than the small, dark, German- / Carniolan- looking survivor bees in that colony.

I'll keep an eye on this colony. All my weak colonies are getting a bump of brood in another two or three weeks, soon as the big colonies have drawn out more comb.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

I came across a colony yesterday that has no queen, one capped queen cell and no eggs or brood except for about one half frames worth of capped drone cells. The queen cell and drone brood are not near each other. There are enough bees to cover about 4 frames. Do I have laying workers or were the drone cells the last gasp of a failing queen?

Also, I am concerned because at this time of year I have not seen any drones yet. Will the virgin get mated well? Any suggestions?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Heaflaw,

I would suspect a laying worker. Since you don't have any real drone population yet, I would suggest adding a frame of brood (eggs and larvae) and let them go through the motions of getting a real queen... this will give some time for more drones to start maturing and flying... if you need more time after she hatches, you can always just pinch her and go again. 

Hope this helps.


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

rrussell6870 said:


> Heaflaw,
> 
> I would suspect a laying worker. Since you don't have any real drone population yet, I would suggest adding a frame of brood (eggs and larvae) and let them go through the motions of getting a real queen


rrussell - so you don't the laying worker(s) will kill or stop the queen cell(s) from being produced from the newly introduced brood?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

It's a chance... but they are far less likely to chew a cell than to ball a new queen... even though the workers have jumped rolls due to the stress, they are still instinctually bound to support the colony by caring for cells.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Heaflaw- where was the queen cell located - along the bottom, part way up, or along the side of the comb? Are you certain they are queenless? If the queen cell is more than half way up the frame, it is likely they are superceding a failing queen. Do like rrussel6870 says, add a frame of uncapped brood.


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

rrussell6870 said:


> It's a chance... but they are far less likely to chew a cell than to ball a new queen... even though the workers have jumped rolls due to the stress, they are still instinctually bound to support the colony by caring for cells.


rrussell - thanks for the insight. I will try this the next time I run across laying workers.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

kilocharlie said:


> Heaflaw- where was the queen cell located - along the bottom, part way up, or along the side of the comb? Are you certain they are queenless? If the queen cell is more than half way up the frame, it is likely they are superceding a failing queen. Do like rrussel6870 says, add a frame of uncapped brood.


The hive consists of a deep with a shallow on top. I made up this hive last July from a cut out queen cell & frames of bees from a strong hive. The drone brood is in the shallow and the QC is half way up a center frame of the deep below the drone brood. I could not find a queen nor any eggs or larva. I gave them a frame of eggs/young larva when I found it in this condition. When should I check back? A week?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Four days... you should see some cells started on the brood frame... kill all other cells except for the ones on this frame... if there are any cells already capped on that frame by day four, kill those as well... make them take their time and do it right... after the four day inspection, wait three more days then inspect again... leave any capped cells and let nature take its course... if there are no cells, by day seven, add another frame of open brood (eggs and larvae)... in which case you would repeat the same process for three full weeks until you get a hatched and accepted virgin... this will be an emergency queen... and as such, there is a chance that she will be of lower quality... the whole point of this process is not to get a great queen, but to correct the laying worker issue... so once they have made a real queen and accepted her, you can replace her however you would like... if this method fails, just let me know and I will give you a few quicker methods... the only reason that I recommended this method first was because you said that drone populations were still low, so I assumed you were ok with letting it take a while... 

Hope this helps!


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks for the advice.


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