# Sustainable Mite Control (SMC)



## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

I have been using SMC management for several years now as described in *Harmonic Farming: Bees* and had excellent results. Do not need any medication or treatment, just management.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

Please elaborate and give us something to chew on. How many colonies? what are your results? Health issues on none? What have you been doing to control mites, nothing?

I dont mean to be rude but your post sounds like this: I bought a leash at pet surplus and took my dog for a walk around the block.

Give us something to chew on buddy!


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

Yes WI-beek, I would have liked more explaination about what this thread was about,..besides SMC also.

I guess we were "supposed to" check out *Harmonic Farming: Bees, *[A book,.$24.95,.144 pages. Release date, Mar.2011] on are own with no link provided. >> http://goolymooly.ca/data/publishing/werner_insidebook_bees.html << Thanks anyway,..wmgysi


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

Maybe we are supposed to buy the book?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

If you click on the tab (above the picture of the bees) that says "TOC and Chapter 4" you can read what Werner has written.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Here's one better: the link to a sample chapter.

http://goolymooly.ca/data/publishing/werner_insidebook_bees.html

He drives home an important point: we can't continue keeping bees with these chemicals. And many beekeepers would concede what used to work just ain't cutting the mustard.

At the ABF conference in Galveston, Randy Oliver gave a great talk on looking to nature as the model for our selection of mite-tolerant bees. It's the "virulent pressure" that keeps the bees tough and resistant. His solution is challenge the bees, allow the stress from mites to bring out their best. 

The term he used in this talk was epigenetics, the process by which genetic information, as modified by environmental influences, is translated into the substance and behavior of an organism. To put that in English, mite pressure flips the genetic switch which brings out the bees' response for survivability. 

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

oops, that link has already been provided!

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## arcowandbeegirl (Oct 11, 2010)

Very interesting!! Thanks for posting.


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

WI-beek said:


> Please elaborate and give us something to chew on. How many colonies? what are your results? Health issues on none? What have you been doing to control mites, nothing?
> 
> I dont mean to be rude but your post sounds like this: I bought a leash at pet surplus and took my dog for a walk around the block.
> 
> Give us something to chew on buddy!


Sorry, just google Harmonic Farming: Bees or Werner Gysi you will find it, but someone has now linked to it. You are free to print the information but please give credit to the author, if shared.


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## humbee (Dec 12, 2010)

"At the ABF conference in Galveston, Randy Oliver gave a great talk on looking to nature as the model for our selection of mite-tolerant bees. It's the "virulent pressure" that keeps the bees tough and resistant. His solution is challenge the bees, allow the stress from mites to bring out their best."

"The term he used in this talk was epigenetics, the process by which genetic information, as modified by environmental influences, is translated into the substance and behavior of an organism. To put that in English, mite pressure flips the genetic switch which brings out the bees' response for survivability."

Dr John Kefuss,Of Toulouse France,Has been practicing and advocating this technique for years, Well known as the 007 or "the live and let die" technique.
Good to hear Randy Oliver has joined this well known procedure.:applause:


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

For those that like to work their apiary in a sustainable, holistic way here is what I did with my bees yesterday, April 10/11. The 5 minute movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY6JhtfPF4w will show how to manage the varroa first thing in the spring. As I work with nature I use "natural pointers" (as explained earlier) to manage bees. These pointers are very critical in order to be in harmony with nature and at the same time help the beekeeper to structure her/his management. The first "natural pointer" is the pussy willow showing us that fresh pollen is available and this triggers the queen to lay a lot more eggs (hazelnuts will be at about the same time). The next "natural pointer" is when the temperature (in the shade) reaches 15 degree C, sunny and no wind. The attached movie will show the management at that time. Hope some of you can adapt this kind of management. I will keep you posted on the next management "dandelion flowering" but you can already read up on this at: http://goolymooly.ca/data/publishing/werner_insidebook_bees.html . Use the tab Holistic Hive Management and then select the tab that interests you. These are all pdf files. Feel freeto print them out to carry to your apiary. I would appreciate if you would refer to this method as SMC (sustainable mite control) by Werner Gysi. I am on a mission to save the bees and will travel across Canada this summer, starting June 8. in Calgary till August 12., reaching as far as Ottawa, ON. I have over 50 events confirmed, some to beekeeping associations. If you like to invite me please contact me.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

thanks for the link. i was disappointed to see the formic acid treatments.


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

stangardener said:


> thanks for the link. i was disappointed to see the formic acid treatments.


You must have watched a different movie. There is no formic acid involved in my management. However, I mention ways in my book Harmonic Farming: Bees (but no mention on this in that movie) how to transit from formic acid to a holistic way of beekeeping, using IPM (intergrated pest management). But ultimately there is no need for any chemicals or antibiotics. I call it sustainable as I do not rely on an outside source to produce honey, clean wax and propolis and bees that are not pampered.
go to youtube and key in Werner Gysi, there is more information there.
Good luck


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

wmgysi,

Thank you for your material. One question. In your Early spring stage, you essentially split the hive, separating the capped brood from the queen. My question is: Is it risky to split a hive that early - before drones are flying - so that the new queen raised in the hive containing the capped brood might have a hard time finding a sufficient number of mates?

Thanks,

Adam


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> wmgysi,
> 
> Thank you for your material. One question. In your Early spring stage, you essentially split the hive, separating the capped brood from the queen. My question is: Is it risky to split a hive that early - before drones are flying - so that the new queen raised in the hive containing the capped brood might have a hard time finding a sufficient number of mates?
> 
> ...



This is certainly a valid concern. We have done this for over 5 years now and those hives always produced several queen cells and success rate is at 90% or higher. The queen may wait for her mating flight in order to find good gene pools, so the laying of eggs may start later than when splitting at a later date, when the dandelions are in full bloom (about 14 days from now at the latest). Once the dandelions flower it triggers the colony to gather as much nectar as they can and produce as much drone brood as is possible. If you remove capped drone frames to fill two brood boxes (20 frames) you will see that this so created split will also collect a ton of the early spring honey, as they are ready for it. As egg laying by the young queen is at least 30 days after splitting (but most likely more as you appropriately pointed out) there will be view surviving mites encountered, as their life cycle in the reproductive cycle is about 27 days (Anderson and Trueman http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm#life ). 

The original hives, immediately after capped bee brood removal, go into high gear and will pick up astonishingly fast. It is as if they try to go into survival mode. You need to do this before you believe me. I was surprised myself when I did my first experiments 7 years ago. But my description here is tested for the past 5 years now. This is with it a reason why I had to update my original book from 1995 and release Harmonic Farming: Bees last year.

1. If you are not sure if it keeps the mites on a sustainable level I suggest to do a mite check in the fall. 
2. If you do not get a queen out of the split after lets say 33 days, unite the bees back using the newspaper method (more on breeding would be described in my book but is not the topic of this thread). 
3. If nothing else, at least you will have gotten rid of most of the mites in the original hive and you can do another split at this time (if at all needed).


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

wmgysi said:


> You must have watched a different movie. go to youtube and key in Werner Gysi, there is more information there.
> Good luck


my internet does not support movies so i only read text on the web page. i'm glad you were able to move away from the acid.
when i read your original post i did not realize you were the author of the link. thanks again for the work.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

The problem seems to lie in the fact that the mites live longer than 27 days. According to an article from the University of Florida Department of Entomology and Nematology, they can last months as adults, feeding off adult bees. Here is a link and quote:

"The phoretic period of the mite appears to contribute to the mite's reproductive ability. Although mites artificially transferred to brood cells immediately after they mature are able to reproduce, their reproductive rate is lower than that of mites undergoing a phoretic period. The phoretic period may last 4.5 to 11 days when brood is present in the hive or as long as five to six months during the winter when no brood is present in the hive. Consequently, female mites living when brood is present in the colony have an average life expectancy of 27 days, yet in the absence of brood, they may live for many months."

This means that the removal of capped larvae sets them back - but the adults riding around on bees will keep right on going. That means that you've got to do something to kill adult mights (like sugar roll or oxalic) to knock them out - OR perhaps the setting-back of the breeding mites is enough to keep them in balance (with the removal of drone brood perhaps as well).

The question I have, is in the setting back of the colonies you're pulling the brood out of. You're setting them back early in the spring by taking their capped brood. It is commonly held that a single big, strong colony will produce far more honey than several small ones. If honey is one's goal (and it's not mine - but if it is) then how does this approach to management affect honey production? Would one have to employ other management practices, such as later combining colonies in order to get their best harvests?


Adam


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

How odd it is that this method is almost identical to the ots or on the spot queen rearing method but he claims the mites dont die before the queen lays egg but when they all rush for the first avilable larva! LOL!!

So which is it wmgysi? Do the mites die before the queen starts laying or do the mites die when they all go into the first larva available and die when to many mites feed on one larva?

I think neither works. I think some die, but if either were true then there we would not need treatments after winter when the bees naturally dont raise brood for a month or longer at a time.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

WI-beek, I think Werner and Mel are on to something. The exact mechanisms might not be clear, but the results they claim seem impressive, and correlate with other information that is only a few clicks away. I've watched Mike Palmer's vimeo's three or four times, and he says he doesn't treat his nucs for mites. Kirk Webster doesn't treat his nucs for mites. 
I haven't treated for mites, and the year before last I noticed, as Mel points out, that it was the colonies that had a brood break that survived through to the spring. The colonies that built up big, and stayed big, died before December of their second year.
Just as Adam says splitting the colony early sacrifices potential brood build-up, and last year I missed out on the early honey flow by doing that. However, I entered winter with 21 colonies, only 2 of which had started as packages, and all had undergone a brood break. Admittedly, it was a mild winter, but all 21 colonies are still alive including 9 nucs (2 storey 5 framers) and this year I am planning to sell bees to my bee-supplier.
I am working on integrating Mike Palmer's nuc method, Mel's splitting principles, and Roland's single deep method to manage bees without chemical mite treatment.
This year, I plan to have a dequeening event of all 10-12 production colonies in June, and at the same time supplement those colonies with brood from the nucs to compensate for the loss of bee production. All of the production colonies will get a queen cell that I aim to produce from three different hives. The nucs themselves will also be split to make more nucs.

This takes some planning and who knows if it will work consistently over time, but I keep good notes and live in hope.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

To me the thing is this:
*
What is the lifespan of a female mite? *

The OP claims that it's only 27 days. But according to the University of Florida, that is only when there's brood present, and they can last much longer when there's not - several months even. 

If they last for months, then taking the capped brood out of a hive means you set the population back in the hive they're removed from, but they're boosted in the hive you move them to. If the mites emerge and just latch on to the adult workers and wait until new brood is in place (and I believe that's exactly what they do), then what all this does is delays the population explosion.

Now, I don't mean to discount the positive potential of that delay, but I do want to fully understand what's going on. wmgysi suggests that the break is long enough that the mites cannot survive, but if what I'm reading about the mite from the University of Florida is true, then the can survive the break.

I see my link above doesn't work, so here's the key passage:

*"The phoretic period of the mite appears to contribute to the mite's reproductive ability. Although mites artificially transferred to brood cells immediately after they mature are able to reproduce, their reproductive rate is lower than that of mites undergoing a phoretic period. The phoretic period may last 4.5 to 11 days when brood is present in the hive or as long as five to six months during the winter when no brood is present in the hive. Consequently, female mites living when brood is present in the colony have an average life expectancy of 27 days, yet in the absence of brood, they may live for many months."*

And the link to the source again:

http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm

To clarify the term "phoretic"

phoresy [ˈfɒrəsɪ]
n
(Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Zoology) an association in which one animal clings to another to ensure movement from place to place, as some mites use some insects
[from New Latin phoresia, from Greek phorēsis, from pherein to carry]

Adam


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Adam, thanks for the link. The Florida study says that mites can increase 12 fold in a colony with brood 6 months of the year, but 800 fold in a colony that has brood 12 months of the year. So it seems that there is some value to broodlessness, but no scientist seems to have nailed down what exactly that mechanism is.
How many months are bees raising brood in Nova Scotia?


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Probably 8 months or so - maybe a bit more. But 2 or 3 months of that will be a very small amount of brood. There is definitely a time where they're broodless from what I know here.

Adam


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

wmgysi said:


> This is certainly a valid concern. We have done this for over 5 years now and those hives always produced several queen cells and success rate is at 90% or higher. The queen may wait for her mating flight in order to find good gene pools, so the laying of eggs may start later than when splitting at a later date, when the dandelions are in full bloom (about 14 days from now at the latest). Once the dandelions flower it triggers the colony to gather as much nectar as they can and produce as much drone brood as is possible. If you remove capped drone frames to fill two brood boxes (20 frames) you will see that this so created split will also collect a ton of the early spring honey, as they are ready for it. As egg laying by the young queen is at least 30 days after splitting (but most likely more as you appropriately pointed out) there will be view surviving mites encountered, as their life cycle in the reproductive cycle is about 27 days (Anderson and Trueman http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm#life ).
> 
> The original hives, immediately after capped bee brood removal, go into high gear and will pick up astonishingly fast. It is as if they try to go into survival mode. You need to do this before you believe me. I was surprised myself when I did my first experiments 7 years ago. But my description here is tested for the past 5 years now. This is with it a reason why I had to update my original book from 1995 and release Harmonic Farming: Bees last year.
> 
> ...


......If you remove capped drone frames to fill two brood boxes (20 frames)....
I apologize, drone brood mentioned above should read capped bee brood.


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> The problem seems to lie in the fact that the mites live longer than 27 days. According to an article from the University of Florida Department of Entomology and Nematology, they can last months as adults, feeding off adult bees.


You do not interpret the study from the University of Florida correctly. The mite has a phoretic phase during winter of up to 6 month but once in the reproductive cycle the phoretic phase is only 4 to 11 days. With this knowledge and the experience of splitting as I described (for 5 years now) the split colonies do fare as well as the original ones. I think it is time to do some practical work.


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> This means that the removal of capped larvae sets them back - but the adults riding around on bees will keep right on going.


Wrong: in the spring the remaining mites that made it through winter are desperate to find bee brood in order to sustain their life cycle and there will be very few that will ride on the bee for any longer. So most of the mites in the original hive are removed. And as experience proofs, the split off bees do not fair any worse, as the mites in the reproductive cycle (phase) do live only about 27 days. There is other scientific reporting of mites living a max of 33 days (University of Munich) but that is a max. value. My experience over 5 years shows that those colonies do as well as any other. Read again my web site at: http://goolymooly.ca/data/publishing/werner_insidebook_bees.html using the tab Holistic Hive Management


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

wmgysi said:


> You do not interpret the study from the University of Florida correctly. The mite has a phoretic phase during winter of up to 6 month but once in the reproductive cycle the phoretic phase is only 4 to 11 days....


So you're saying that the mite who finds no brood to enter cannot just revert to the phoretic life when the brood is removed, as it does in the winter when brood rearing stops? Why not? Is it that, once the bee brood has been present, the mites undergo some kind of biological change that prevents them from doing that? I'm not asking to be disrespectful; I'm asking in order to understand.



wmgysi said:


> With this knowledge and the experience of splitting as I described (for 5 years now) the split colonies do fare as well as the original ones.


This is interesting, as it is the weakness of simply splitting, as the colony who receives the old queen is usually not separated from capped brood - this means the mites are not usually set back in both parts of a traditional split. It also seems to be better if the bees have to raise a new queen. If you were to just introduce a laying queen, there wouldn't be a long enough break in the cycle.

I have read of similar efforts in management around breaking the brood cycle to combat mites, and in my experience so far, when I have made splits, I have seen lessened mite loads in the hives that had to raise new queens, as they had longer breaks in the brood cycle.

The key to what you describe seems to be separating the queen from the capped brood. I will be trying this soon, as pussy willows are just blooming here, and I have hives to split.



wmgysi said:


> I think it is time to do some practical work.


Agreed. I have no problem with that, and am happy to try it. 

I am interested in the methods you describe, and would rather find you right in your observations than wrong. I am very much focused on ways to find balance with the mites, and to avoid chemical treatments. But I try my best to ask enough questions beforehand in order to best understand different methods before I make choices on which methods to try. 

Practical work takes time, and you want to use it wisely.

Thanks for the information,

Adam


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

Very interesting. So what are we saying here? Once a mite begins laying eggs a biological clock starts ticking and mite that emerge and are not eveer stimulated by bee larva hormones dont mature into reproductive mites and therefor can live an extended period of time until brood is present? Once this stimulus has bee present you can remove it and most mites will die? You want to do this right after spring brood rearing starts then so you can achieve the double whammy effect?

Any time you remove a brood cycle and interrupt a breeding cycle of the mite you have a large effect on the long term (fold increase) population gain of varoa. Also if you split a mite load that will reach critical mass in 6 months into four, you have achieve four colonies that can last a year or something instead of crashing in fall.

I am more concerned about someones theories being presented as fact when there is no solid data to provide real reason. What is really happening? Yeah, some will say it dont matter as long as it works but then state it then that you have no idea what is really going on but it works and state a bunch of ifs and maybes other wise, show real data, like "xyz lab, 2002 study, 500 colonis, 250 controls, 250 method, mites marked, life cycle averages, bla bla bla" and then show mite live this long under this circumstance, and that long under normal circumstance. 

maybe this info already exists but I dont see the proof of what triggers longer life spans or short ones when claims are made that you can use these know facts and manipulate them to your advantage.

If Im wrong I apologize, if not thats where I stand.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

That's the thing that makes it all difficult to really understand completely.

If I split the hive so that all the capped brood is separated from the queen, then follow that up with some drone trapping/removal, I've disrupted the breeding pattern of the mites significantly. It's just math at that point. I've pretty much guaranteed that the total mite numbers by Fall are way smaller.

If I do that each year, the mite loads can't get out of hand.

Whether the mite lives 27 days or six months, the fact is that mite loads will be drastically reduced. And it would be difficult to know whether mite life spans had anything to do with it or not. So while I'm quite sure the methods described by the OP will work to reduce mite loads, I still don't have enough information to truly understand the extent this management approach will affect mite loads and why.

Perhaps someone can point us to more information on the life cycle of the mite that more clearly describes why a mite without available brood in the spring can't survive longer than a month, while it can live for several months in absence of brood during the winter.

Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone. I'm just looking to learn as much as I can.

The bottom line for me is beating the mites, and - if successful - knowing how it was accomplished.

Thanks
Adam


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> So you're saying that the mite who finds no brood to enter cannot just revert to the phoretic life when the brood is removed, as it does in the winter when brood rearing stops? Why not? Is it that, once the bee brood has been present, the mites undergo some kind of biological change that prevents them from doing that? I'm not asking to be disrespectful; I'm asking in order to understand.


Please study the scientific description of the mite's life cycle as posted earlier, written by Anderson and Trueman ( http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm#life ) or if you can understand German use this link: http://digital.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/download/pdf/877483?name=Einfluss der Brutentnahme bei der Honigbiene Apis mellifera auf die Leistung der

Then read the description again on my web page: http://goolymooly.ca/data/publishing/werner_insidebook_bees.html using the tab Holistic Hive Management, then watch the youtube movie to see the practical management done at 15 degree C, sunny, no wind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY6JhtfPF4w
I can't describe it any better and have done SMC (sustainable mite control) for the past 5 years with no loss of colonies due to varroa mite.


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> ...


Please read what I have posted earlier and again today. Please refer to this management as SMC (sustainable mite control and give credit to Werner Gysi, who has described i on his website as well as documented it in a live take on youtube). Thanks


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Here is the link to the tech I have been using for 3 yrs now: www.mdasplitter.com
Found a whopping 3 mites last year on close to 100 colonies that I have! 
Gotta remember though that your honey production colonies will probably fade away, but you will replace with nucs you established just for that reason! (takes a little bit getting used to that!)

One thing I have been doing is trying to get these honey producer colonies to make it med free and see if they can survive without fading away (live or die method) and I do have several that are going gangbusters and I have yet to find a mite on them! :thumbsup:

I am planning on raising some queens from these colonies!


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

Mtn. Bee said:


> Here is the link to the tech I have been using for 3 yrs now: www.mdasplitter.com
> Found a whopping 3 mites last year on close to 100 colonies that I have!
> Gotta remember though that your honey production colonies will probably fade away, but you will replace with nucs you established just for that reason! (takes a little bit getting used to that!)


Very encouraging work you have done. However Mel Disselkoen's method (OTS, on the spot queen rearing), which seems to give similar results, differs in the following:
I manage the bees with the first available capped bee brood in the spring in order to make the original hive mite free (or as close as possible mite free, as the remaining mites that have overwintered are desperate to enter brood and a high success rate is guaranteed.) working with the original queen, rather than supersede the queen in July. 
The so collected capped bee brood and mites (and almost certain some eggs of 1 to 3 days of age) is then united in a new hive to rear a new queen (or queen cells that could be used to breed). Taking advantage of the mites average 27 days life span during the reproductive cycle will get rid of most mites, as new larvae for the mite to reproduce is most likely only available 30 days later. If no breeding is desired (because some may think it is to early in the season for a large gen pool) and no queen is reared the split bees could, after lets say 34 days, be united with one of the original hives and operation would continue as at the start.
In Mel Disselkoen's case he mentions ( http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/ArtificialSupersedure.pdf ) quote:

“These colonies (the superseded ones, added by me to clarify) survived because the mites were reduced to a minimum by the pause in brood rearing in the same way that Africanized bees survive the mite and increase via frequent swarming. After the break in brood rearing, when 5-day-old larvae are again available for the fertile mite, all the mites instinctually enter the cells simultaneously and are then trapped when the cell is capped. The single larva isn’t enough food for all the mites trapped within the cell and all perish.” 

My question is, how long a pause in brood does Mel Disselkoen create with his management? The experience in Mel's method sound as good as mine and could be another way of working colonies in a sustainable manner.
Thanks for sharing
Werner Gysi


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

Read from the start and your questions will be answered, else look at the links I posted below again in response to Adam Foster Collins. I can't explain it any better. There is still the management to be done once the dandelions open and then 45 days later, so don't just read one or the other but the whole thing.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

wmgysi said:


> Read from the start and your questions will be answered, else look at the links I posted below again in response to Adam Foster Collins. I can't explain it any better. There is still the management to be done once the dandelions open and then 45 days later, so don't just read one or the other but the whole thing.


I guess I'm missing something here. I'm practicing Mel's methods because they are clearly documented with multiple articles to reinforce the process. All I can see here is a tidbit of info with an apparent goal of selling books. While there is nothing wrong with selling books, this forum is for the free exchange of knowledge, not a lure and a link to purchases.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I appreciate all the effort that goes into these methods you fellas are discussing, but I must take issue with the the idea that any of this is sustainable.

Here's why: Given that you are doing these major manipulations every year to combat mites (many thanks for not using chemicals) what happens if you can't follow through with this method one year? What happens if you break your back and have to spend all spring in bed and can't find anybody to do this stuff for you? How sustainable is it then?

Wouldn't it be actual sustainability to develop a method where you don't have uncharacteristic losses if you are unable to perform the perfunctory duties each year? Why won't people embrace a method that works in the long term so that when you lose a year, all you lose is swarms, relatively speaking?

I just don't see the sustainability.

There, I've kicked the AHB nest.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Solomon,

I'm looking at ideas like this in relation to small cell. Depending on how you approach it, it can take a few seasons to get all your bees regressed and on small or natural cell. 

I'm just wondering if management strategies like this can work to expand your colony base, while at the same time work toward small and natural cell hives.

Adam


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Who mentioned small cell?


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> Who mentioned small cell?


I did.

You questioned whether or not the management approach which we are discussing in this thread is sustainable.
I responded to your point by saying that I am considering it in conjunction with reaching small cell or natural cell; meaning in an effort to reach sustainability.

Breaking the brood cycle and splitting in the short term during regression, and small cell for sustainability.

Adam


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

To say that something is unsustainable just because it is labor intensive seems unfair.

In fact many sustainable practices in many fields are labor intensive and high maintance.
It has been in part the drive to have less work and ongoing envolvement that led to the use of synthetic materials and chemicals in both industry and agriculture.

Now if you want to set your goal as self-sustaining that's another thing entirely.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

What's unfair? People start beekeeping to 'help the bees' all the time. But what are they helping if those bees die the first season they're not aggressively managed? It's only slightly better than addiction to treatments. They've traded an expensive quick chemical treadmill for an inexpensive time consuming managerial one. A step in the right direction, yes, not sustainable.

It's unsustainable not because it's labor intensive, but because it's unnecessarily labor intensive and because the season you remove your hands from the works, they quit working. That's not a very effective solution.

The only real and sustainable solution is fully resistant bees and the only way that happens is if non-resistant bees are allowed to die or their queens replaced with resistant ones. Natural selection must be used as a tool rather than fought at every turn.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Solomon Parker said:


> the season you remove your hands from the works, they quit working. That's not a very effective solution.


With all due respect Solomon, any season the bees are not tended to they will not produce bees or honey to an acceptable level, and winter losses will be high. The only bees naturally suited to combat mites do so by swarming often or shutting down brood production often. I'd rather have a traditional Italians and break brood cycles at my discretion, not theirs. The commercial beeks I've talked to in my area still use the Italians for the same reason.
Until a bee can be produced that actively rids the hive of mites there is no natural solution. Even VSH bees don't do that to any meaningful extent. Cleaning out dead brood is not combating mites IMHO.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

What I find unfair is to dismiss the solutions people find that allow them to accomplish thier goal in what is a sustainable manner. Because you feel it is too much work/envolvement?

Solomon, what you are describing is a system that does not require human maintainance to continue. 
That is self-sustainability. It's a great goal but rarely if ever achieved in agricultural endeavors and is quite different from sustainability, which usually requires a lot of work and time.

Would you say that organic farming is unsustainable because it requires tremendous labor and management each year? Are they all going down the wro g path since they are not breeding frost resistant plants. Or crops that don't require weeding? Are the careful interplanting and rotation schedules just wasted effort?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

DonShackelford said:


> With all due respect Solomon, any season the bees are not tended to they will not produce bees or honey to an acceptable level, and winter losses will be high. The only bees naturally suited to combat mites do so by swarming often or shutting down brood production often.


But the whole point of keeping bees is manipulating them unnaturally. 



DonShackelford said:


> Until a bee can be produced that actively rids the hive of mites there is no natural solution.


I agree with you there. But you say 'until' like it hasn't happened yet.



windfall said:


> Would you say that organic farming is unsustainable because it requires tremendous labor and management each year? Are they all going down the wro g path since they are not breeding frost resistant plants. Or crops that don't require weeding? Are the careful interplanting and rotation schedules just wasted effort?


Don't confuse lack of major efforts to control disease with doing nothing at all.

Yes, it's true that if you don't manage bees they won't live up to their maximum potential. But we're not talking about making honey here, we're talking about keeping them alive. It's my position that they should be able to do that on their own. It's also my position that they can in fact and given the chance, they do. Mine have been doing it for coming up on a decade. I haven't had any swarms in years and I don't practice any of these so-called sustainable methods. The process is fairly quick. If they can't live on their own, let them die, or in StevenG's case, buy queens from someone who did. It's the only sustainable solution.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

The other day, I was researching the life cycle of the varroa mite, and searched for "expert on the varroa mite" or something similar. I thought a mite researcher might be able to add more to the discussion. I found the name, Dr Stephen J. Martin, of the Apiculture and Social Insect Laboratory of Sheffield University in the UK, and sent him an email.

Here is the question portion of my email, and his response in full:

Me:

*"My question lies in the lifespan of the mite. From what I've read, the adult mite can live for several months. But other sources say they only live about 27 days.

So I wonder if you can tell me. How long does the female varroa mite live, and how long can she mate? Do you think that splitting is a good way to manage mite loads? I also wonder if you believe that smaller cell sizes in worker brood will reduce mite loads in a colony."*

And Dr Martin's full reply:

*"Adam
Adult female mites mate once (for life) and can live at least one year, possibly longer. Smaller cell size doesn't work, loads of studies have shown this all you get is smaller bees. Splitting doesn't control your mites population. If you don't want to use chemicals drone trapping is the best way, in the summer then use some non-chemical method (icing sugar?) in the winter, but its not really practical on a big scale."*

Adam


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> Adult female mites mate once (for life) and can live at least one year, possibly longer.


I don't think I would beleive this life span is average. Try making a colony broodless for 30 days and count the mite drop over this time. Do an alcohol wash before and after. You will find a significant reduction of mites on the bees at the end date.


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## AntonioZangara (Apr 24, 2012)

i split hives in early spring but here in Center Italy is a good time.but i will have hundreds of mites (300- 600) in August too. Here is so warm that we have to induce a broodless period caging the queen in july for 21-24 days. i will treat just colonies with more than 3% of infestation with liquid oxalic acid. and i see from 300to600 mites every summer and i cut drone combs every 7-10 days+ i use sugar dusting.

Actually just organic acids combined with a broodless period can save colonies with mor than 3% infestation with 90% of mites loss . this 3% will bee soon 100% if the bees are robbing neightbours mitefarm.
Hives with less than 3% of infestation are fine but they can re-infestate other colonies.

In this way i never loose colonies for varroa.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Delta Bay said:


> I don't think I would beleive this life span is average. Try making a colony broodless for 30 days and count the mite drop over this time. Do an alcohol wash before and after. You will find a significant reduction of mites on the bees at the end date.


X2 with Delta Bay .....and ask Mel his thoughts!
Has been working well for me for 3 yrs totally med free and following Mel's tech.


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## beeup (Apr 10, 2010)

I'm having trouble locating the queen, to many bees and bad weather lately. Question is: can you break the brood cycle later in the spring when the weather is better? So far I'm 2 for 4 on finding the queen. Seems like alot of effort just to put the whole mess back together without finding her. Any advice? P.S. These hives are huge ( 2 1/2 deeps brood and 1 or 2 supers on)


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

beeup said:


> I'm having trouble locating the queen, to many bees and bad weather lately. Question is: can you break the brood cycle later in the spring when the weather is better? QUOTE]
> 
> Sometimes it's just easier to not find the queen so I move all the combs that she is not on into a new hive body then put it on the old stand. The original being reduced down to a nuc size is placed on a new location. You can look the next day to see if the queen is in the nuc when there are fewer bees to make sure shes in there.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Solomon Parker said:


> How sustainable is it then?
> 
> Wouldn't it be actual sustainability to develop a method where you don't have uncharacteristic losses if you are unable to perform the perfunctory duties each year? Why won't people embrace a method that works in the long term so that when you lose a year, all you lose is swarms, relatively speaking?
> 
> ...


Sol,

It sounds like you are looking for self-perpetuating. Which, sounds like how the primorsky bees are. They have developed a mechanism, a high level of swarming, to adapt to varroa. Some beekeepers "like" these bees, others don't. Depending on who you ask they may, or may not be sustainable.

Tom


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm looking for (well, not really, developed) bees that don't require inputs for disease control. The Primorsky bees got it the same way my bees did, though 'it' is a different set of skills and solutions to the same problem. I'm sure some great great grandmother of one or more of my queens was Russian, but from what I've heard, Russians are not what I'm looking for.

Incidentally, it's exactly the way the Russians got their status that I have consistently championed over the years. They dealt with it on their own. They're just ahead in the game by some decades. Our gentle productive bees have the same capability in there somewhere, they just need us to let them discover it.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> Our gentle productive bees have the same capability in there somewhere, they just need us to let them discover it.


If you look at the Russians it was the localized population that allowed them to draw high fitness from within that population to get where they are. I beleive as you do but also think that using the brood break is a way to keep beekeepers with bees without treatments. You can still pressure the bees with test colonies that haven't had the break. I think beekeepers really need to start working together as local groups to maintain local populations of bees in their locations. Possibly a way for the bee to realize that capability.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

mite control or not queen right splits are an important part of my management technique. i'm making up for (below average) losses, building numbers and requeening without buying queens that i've found to be no better than queens from my own hives. i'm also controling swarming and generating a very saleable nuc. kicking mites in the teeth is only one of the benefits.
if your unfortunate enough to have to keep your hive numbers down you still might find it a good idea to requeen, make up for losses and control swarming.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

You can split later when colonies are stronger in the cold northern climes!
Split too early with cold nights and you are asking for trouble, especially with weaker 2-4 frame splits that don't have enough bees to keep warm with the cold night temps.

I don't have any trouble with swarming using Mel's tech. as remember you already mocked swarming by making a nuc with the old queen and frames of bees/brood/honey/pollen.
Did not have 1 swarm last year out of my colonies that I split early and the colonies that I did not split swarmed several times on me and never really built up and had a high mite load later on in the fall! (I wanted to compare traditional tech against Mel's).
Oh yeah, how did I know about if my colonies swarmed or not?????
Easy to answer that one, I clip the tip of 1 wing on all my queens and my swarms continue to be MY swarms b/c they usually start a new colony under my bottom boards or pallets until I come with an empty box and brush them in! 

And do those new young queens lay nice solid brood patterns all the way up till fall!
Not to mention that the extra frames of queen cells start additional nucs for you as they only need 1 frame with queen cells on it!


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

For those of us that depend on our bees to make a living we can't afford to just step aside and watch hives die in hopes of one day having resistant bees. By using a splitting technique and grafting queens from our best stock we can keep hive numbers up and at the same time the bees are still being challenged by varroa. This may take longer to develop a resistant bee but as long as the final result is the same does it matter?


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

JD's Bees said:


> By using a splitting technique and grafting queens from our best stock we can keep hive numbers up and at the same time the bees are still being challenged by varroa.


X2 This is exactly what I do and it is working!


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

In the words of Doctor Zeuss "Sometimes the questions are complicated and the answers are simple".


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

JD's Bees said:


> By using a splitting technique and grafting queens from our best stock we can keep hive numbers up and at the same time the bees are still being challenged by varroa. This may take longer to develop a resistant bee but as long as the final result is the same does it matter?


In my veiw having local stock to work with has to come first. So what you're doing sounds great to me.
Are you able to over winter 8 frame nucs as 4 over 4 ? I've heard that there are quite a few Manitoba outfits that are starting to do this with good results. Just curious if it's doable up there in the Peace.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

I winter outdoors in single 9 frame deeps but sometimes the cluster gets caught to one side of the box and starves.
I already have 5 frame nucs (with bottom built in) so last week I made 64 boxes to place on top and will try wintering these outdoors. I have four wintering locations and will try two pallets per location and compare them to the singles.
People have had good success wintering six frame nucs indoors.


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

This year the first management in regards to the varroa took place April 23/12. I managed as described in this thread, removing all capped bee brood (as done for the past 5 years) at the exact timing.
Today I managed the bees as to the natural pointer "Dandelion", described in this thread. I checked for mites in one of the colonies, removing about 50 drone pupae. I found one mite (sorry, but it does not allow me to upload picture). Now this is not something that I do regularly, but it may stop those that still think it won't work from quarreling about how the mites populate during their reproductive cycle. Practical work is always a lot more instructive than numbers. Good luck with your bees.


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

beeup said:


> I'm having trouble locating the queen


One way to find her is in the early spring, when she is starting to lay more eggs. You would have to find the frames with one day old eggs in the cells. At that time of year there aren't to many. Usually the queen is not far away from those cells. Once found, capture the queen (there are devices to do so but I just hold her by the wings) and mark her back. From then on it will be easier. If still troubles, ask an experienced beekeeper to mark your queens. This years colour is YELLOW.


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## beeup (Apr 10, 2010)

Thanks for all the help everyone. Today I got some good weather and was able to locate 4 queens. So now I'm 6 out of 8 tries. I really only need to do this to 2 other strong hives. I hope I get them done before they swarm. What do guys do with your weaker hives? Should I wait a month and let them build up a little more before removing queen?


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

WI-beek said:


> So which is it wmgysi? Do the mites die before the queen starts laying or do the mites die when they all go into the first larva available and die when to many mites feed on one larva?


Adam, you overlook the fact that a mite in its phoretic state during winter can live on the bee for up to 6 months. However, when you read the report by Anderson and Trueman correctly (and as proven over 5 years applying SMC using my management), then you notice the phoretic state of a mite in its *reproductive* cycle is only 5 to 11 days and its max. life span at that point is an average of 27 days. This is what makes my management work for the capped bee brood that was split off. These split bees only can provide capped bee brood at the earliest 30 days after the split, assuming 3 day old eggs would be used to rear a queen cell and a 10 day mating time (else it will be longer than 30 days). Most likely capped cells may even be available later as the queen may have to wait for sufficient drones to be available for breeding. So 10 days mating time may be a bit short. However, if you don't want to breed, remove the maybe not yet fertile queen after 30 days and unite the bees with whatever hive you prefer, using a newspaper as I describe in my book. Your bees will have a very low mite count at this time. Hope you can enjoy a more sustainable future with your bees, else keep on LOL .


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## wmgysi (Feb 14, 2009)

For those that are following up on SMC, on my web page under Holistic Hive Management (see link in this thread earlier) I added the description under Drone Frame Removal and describe when and how I remove drone brood. It is not culling existing brood but removing frames introduced during the management when the dandelions flower.


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