# All dead



## pharmbee (Jun 21, 2013)

Went and checked my 7 hives today. They are all dead, starved out. They were all light on stores as I took 2 hives and made nucs and splits looking back way too late. I fed them in the fall but apparently not close to enough. There wasnt any honey left. I dont know what to do with all the drawn comb. I'm honestly sick to my stomach, I know to expect loses but it hurts losing all of them. Not that I was much of a beekeeper but I cant even say that I am anymore.


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

Ouch


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## eriklane (Dec 4, 2012)

Can you learn from your mistake? I am sure you can....all you had to have done was to make closer observations on how much honey you had. How do I know this? I made the same mistake. However, because I made a Warre hive with plexi windows, we could surmise that a) our bees were not getting enough ventilation (In early December), and we took action...b) that we could not see capped honey anymore, and, again, took action, by adding dry sugar into our attic.

Are we out of the woods yet? No...we got our bees late, a month late, and, as 2nd year keepers, didn't make the connection to what may happen in the fall-you said it-light stores...we had a batch of Russians also and they went gangbusters, with 2 full boxes...our Italians in the Warre seem light on honey, so, hoping that our sugar does the trick...

Learn.from.your.mistakes and don't repeat them. We built a top bar with no insulation the first year...they all died out, but,95% of all bees in our area died out...then we failed to decipher that hives made out of 3/4" or 1" wood in winter in MI may need insulation (we added 2 layers of blue foam), and then -9 degrees hit and I added 2 more layers...France and Italy are 40 degrees or so in most parts in winter...much colder here.

Read, ask questions, learn...Ventilation, stores, and keeping them pesticide and free from bother seems to make most of the difference...and mites of course need controlling. Keep them by a wind break for winter, and I frankly believe hives should be in shade in summer and in a place that gets winter sun. They don't need to be in full sun in summer...most of our top bar sat outside I summer of 2012...way too hot. This year, almost no bearding, and when it occurred, < 100 bees. Keep em cool in summer and out of wind/warm in winter...

Keep pluggin'!


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Sorry.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

Sorry to read about your bees. If it's freezing there you don't probably have to worry about wax moths, but make sure that mice can't find a comfy home in those hives. If they've been frozen for several days, I'd break down the hives and put them away until you can get new bees. Keep the frames where the wax moths can't get to them, and you should be in better shape for next year. Best of luck in the spring.


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## ksp107 (May 19, 2013)

Very sorry to hear about your bees!


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## pharmbee (Jun 21, 2013)

Thanks for the kind words everyone. I am going to go all carni next year, actually weigh the hives in fall instead of guess, and full insert my sbb instead of halfway.

I dont have enough freezer space for the frames. Can I store them outside if I put an exclude on top and bottom to keep out mice. My guess is wax moth may not be an issue with how cold it can get, but i dont know that.


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## DocHivetool (Jun 20, 2013)

Sorry to hear that. Beat wishes to you when you get back up. Sleep it off and give yourself time to process this, and then..well, the future is yours.


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## ksirovy (Mar 26, 2013)

If it's any consolation, I cleaned one of mine out today also, I only have one left, my first year. This one produced 10 gallons of honey, the one that is still alive I didn't get any from. It was actually a very weak hive, but it's alive and the good one is dead. Figure that one out. Same hive setup right next to each other, wrapped in insulation and then wrapped in plastic. The hives look like insulated footballs. I was told by a commercial bee keeper that it was to cold for them to move to the stores they had and more then likely starved.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

pharmbee said:


> Thanks for the kind words everyone. I am going to go all carni next year, actually weigh the hives in fall instead of guess, and full insert my sbb instead of halfway.


Good luck, and I am very glad to see that you will not be giving up.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

I would not worry much about wax moths now. seal the hives to keep out mice. and have a go at it in march.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

pharmbee said:


> Thanks for the kind words everyone. I am going to go all carni next year, actually weigh the hives in fall instead of guess, and full insert my sbb instead of halfway.
> 
> I dont have enough freezer space for the frames. Can I store them outside if I put an exclude on top and bottom to keep out mice. My guess is wax moth may not be an issue with how cold it can get, but i dont know that.


You can start again using your drawn comb. The bees will build up quickly on it. 

This time of year there should be little need to have any protection for your drawn comb other than from mice. The wax moths shouldn't become too destructive until steady warm weather. Hopefully, you will have bees on it before then. 

Anyone that has achieved success has had to have some failures along the way.


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## Kevtater (May 17, 2013)

I'm very sorry to hear about your loss. I understand the feeling of sheer devastation. I always blame myself and second guess all my decisions that lead up to the death of the colony. If it was my fault, it's a learning experience. Other times you can do everything right, and they still die. I lost my best honey producing hive this past week, cleaned them up and put their equipment away yesterday. 

This hive, ate their sugar (which I had as a moisture absorbent more than anything) preferentially over their honey, then propolyzed the screened vents shut, leaving themselves quite soggy.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

pharmbee said:


> I'm honestly sick to my stomach, I know to expect loses but it hurts losing all of them.


I understand how you must feel. In 2006 I was pretty much wiped out too, it's like a knife to the heart. Glad you are not giving up. 2014 will be a better year for you. :thumbsup:


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## MikeTheBeekeeper (May 18, 2011)

The drawn comb will be great for swarms, packages, Nucs, etc. you may get this spring.

Sorry about your loss.


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

You can also take your frames of comb and melt the wax down to make foundation. That is depending on how much time you have to invest into the process.
Yes weighing the bees and hives is a good idea. I am going to follow that approach and do it next year. I fed in winter.
1 of my hives was almost out of feed when the freeze came.
Sorry about your loss, I know that I had almost lost 1 of my hives. I thought it was a dead out, but they were all clustered inside below. I had brought it inside for a closer inspection. And in the warmth I noticed many bees on all the frames.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

There is no way to sugar coat something like this... it just sucks.
I lost four late season cutouts this winter. The packages and large early swarms seem to be holding their own.

As far as frames go, I take an outer cover and set it on the barn floor upside down. Then I stack all the supers with frames in them into the outer cover and finally end up with an outer cover rightside up on the last super. In esence a outer cover sandwich.
Wierd how we can get so attached to a bunch of stinging insects isn't it? lol


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## pharmbee (Jun 21, 2013)

Thanks again for all the kind words. It has made me feel worlds better. I went for a drive last night cause I was really feeling like crap. Went to a grocery store and came out and someone had hit and ran my pickup. No video tape of it either. Went home and mixed a stiff one and felt sorry for myself.

Fast forward to this morning, the sun came up. My wife, who is not a morning person, made me breakfast. I have great family, great career, and next year spring a great hobby again.


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## pharmbee (Jun 21, 2013)

One quick question, does anyone have any recommendations for a supplier with carnis that will still mail packages? The ones that I have used are all Italians.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Fast forward to this morning, the sun came up. My wife, who is not a morning person, made me breakfast. I have great family, great career, and next year spring a great hobby again.[/QUOTE]

This IS what matters when defication hits the rotary oscillator.


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

so sorry to hear. Happened to me last year. I had about 15 out of 20 hives die out. They all had plenty of honey, but we had a weird warm / cold / warm / cold January-February. Queens started laying, then all the bees clustered around the larva when it got cold and wouldn't move Starved to death with honey on the next frame.  Same thing over and over. I did everything right and still didn't work out. The only thing that would have helped was an insulated box. I believe that a rotten tree has more insulation value than 3/4" pine. Also, the Langstroth frames aren't as conducive to keeping the hive as a natural comb.

This year, started mostly new hives from cutouts. Anytime I see the daytime temp is above 50 degrees, I make sure I have a miller feeder filled up out on the front of the hive. These hives were mostly survivors, and were given queen stock from my best surviving hives, but I'm not taking any chances. I took no honey off because we had a very bad honey flow this year.

I've had some years where I did everything right and still had hive losses. THen other years, where I did everything wrong, and they thrived. Don't be too hard on yourself. Things happen. It will be a distant memory this time next year.

Rob.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>You can start again using your drawn comb. The bees will build up quickly on it. 

A colony put on drawn comb has a huge head start. So you can view it as progress. The next colony you establish has that head start.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

We have all lost colonies one time or another and its no fun. If I were you I would take each hive apart and brush all the dead bees from the frames and clean everything up. Sealing them all up will trap too much moisture in the hive and things will rot and mold. If you have a mouse-proof place like in your garage stack everything up inside and stagger the boxes for ventilation. Don't worry about any dead bees lodged inside the cells as the next colony will clean that up on their own. Many individuals starting out in beekeeping make the mistake of removing honey from colonies that will need it to get through the winter. Another common mistake is to feed too late if the bees need additional stores. Books are great for practical information but there is no substitute for experience. Unfortunately some people have to go through the trial and error process. Best advice is to find yourself an experienced mentor who would show you in person how best to set a colony up for winter. Make a few calls in your town to the pesticide companies who get a lot of calls to remove honeybees and tell them you'll hive swarms for free. Good luck.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

From your posts, you had Italians going into winter. I won't use Italians because of poor wintering. They are outstandingly good bees otherwise, just tend to go into winter too strong and starve out.

If you were closer, I'd offer a few splits for spring. Hopefully other beekeepers near you will offer some help.


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## don wiggins (Mar 4, 2013)

Sorry to hear that Pharmbee.
I am a first year beekeeper, your neighbor to the south, and I lost all three of my hives this winter. I felt the very same way, sick to my stomach. I even made a similar comment to my wife asking if I could call myself a beekeeper if I didn't have any bees. 
Don


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

What a bummer........ Did you check for mites going into winter? The two biggest causes of winter losses are lack of stores and mites.

Stick with it, better times are coming! Check back here often....


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## pharmbee (Jun 21, 2013)

I cleaned up my frames and equipment tonight. I want to thank everyone again for advice and encouragement. 

I stored my frames with an upside down telescoping cover, 8 frames per box for air flow, with a double nuc cover that is screened on top. My logic is no mice can get in, has some airflow and light exposure for the moths. I'm not sure on life cycle of moths so I don't know if they can lay eggs through a screen, even when it warms up. However its by my truck so I will check it often. 

I also made up 3 swarm traps from some used boxes I bought and read most of a swarm catching book that I had on the shelf that I hadn't read. Definitely feel better making up and starting to implement a game plan for spring. Been a very productive night for a noob beek with no bees!


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

pharmbee

Make sure you check your equipment every now and then if your storing everything outside. if mice get in there they will really make a mess of that comb. Mice can get in almost anything. As others have stated, your new bees or next swarm placed onto drawn comb will be way ahead of the game. God comb is very important to good beekeeping. You'll do fine.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Fusion_power said:


> From your posts, you had Italians going into winter. I won't use Italians because of poor wintering. They are outstandingly good bees otherwise, just tend to go into winter too strong and starve out.
> 
> If you were closer, I'd offer a few splits for spring. Hopefully other beekeepers near you will offer some help.


While I prefer carnies, italians can overwinter good too. Up in Canada, the vast majority of bees are italians (95% in Québec, I think), so if they can survive our winters, they can certainly do fine in Kansas. You could, however, seek stock that overwinters better, regardless of race. For this I'd look for breeders that are further up North, such as Washington or NY, or heck maybe even Canada. Just be sure to respect regulations. International restrictions can be great, but I don't think the interstate restrictions are.

Closer breeders should always, in theory, be better though. Too far south or too far north and you just don't have the same flowers, precipitations, season lengths and so on.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Closer breeders should always, in theory, be better though. Too far south or too far north and you just don't have the same flowers, precipitations, season lengths and so on.


I'm skeptical of the emphasis put on "local". Bee social behavior is very broadly adaptive. This is the core evolutionary feature of honeybees. They have substituted social communication and social nest construction for instinctual hardwiring. Compare them the the tens of thousands of different species of insects that have precise and fragile instinctual relationships with particular host plants and seasonal flight periods. Bees are are a successful cosmopolitan race because they reject local specialization. 

Bees are hardwired to explore their environment and test new food sources. They use communication to recruit others (and conversely if the food source is toxic, they die before others consume it). On any winter day with dandelion bloom, a bee will find and exploit the resource. Not because they are local genetic race that "knows" Dandelion blooms on Valentines Day, but because any 50F degree day will send out a volunteer forager, some of whom may discover flowers, and recruit others.

Bees are hardwired to tend their nest conditions. They modify the environment to suit their needs. Anyone who has observed bee's cover and uncover vents with propolis knows the hive alters it interior environment dynamically.

"Localism" has flowed from an Alice Water's restaurant in Berkeley in the 1970's to become an irrational obsession of the new cohort of hipster beekeepers. It contradicts the bee's basic biology which is multi-million year resistance to specialization and narrowing its adaptive niche.

I don't dispute that agricultural lineages have contributed to the hyper-throphy of some traits -- e.g. Italian strain bees over-brooding going into winter. To the extent that local bees exist at all in communities flooded with agricultural escaped swarms, they likely represent a natural reversion to a broader variance in genes, and hence a more broadly socially adaptable strain (ie the exact opposite of "locally over-determined".


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> I'm skeptical of the emphasis put on "local". Bee social behavior is very broadly adaptive. This is the core evolutionary feature of honeybees. They have substituted social communication and social nest construction for instinctual hardwiring. Compare them the the tens of thousands of different species of insects that have precise and fragile instinctual relationships with particular host plants and seasonal flight periods. Bees are are a successful cosmopolitan race because they reject local specialization.
> 
> Bees are hardwired to explore their environment and test new food sources. They use communication to recruit others (and conversely if the food source is toxic, they die before others consume it). On any winter day with dandelion bloom, a bee will find and exploit the resource. Not because they are local genetic race that "knows" Dandelion blooms on Valentines Day, but because any 50F degree day will send out a volunteer forager, some of whom may discover flowers, and recruit others.
> 
> ...


When I talked about local, I did not mean to imply that bees strains adapt to local conditions by "learning" about certain flowers and forgetting about the rest, thus failing to harvest if displaced where the flora is different.

However, different strains have various speeds of brood buildup and attitudes during dearths. As such, a strain that builds up really fast in the spring and keeps laying despite dearths will produce a lot in a region that has a major early honey flow and only small dearth periods, while it would not perform anywhere near as well if the initial honeyflows are minor, dearths are long, and major honey flows are only much later in the season. This is why it's advantageous to purchase local strains (assuming the breeding program is as rigorous as what you can find farther away). Not because the bees "knows" the local flowers, but because their brood habits maximize the exploitation of local flora resources.

Proboscis length may also have an impact (local flora may be better adapted to longer or shorter tongue reach), but this is unlikely to have as much impact as brood habits (after all, your neighbor may have alfafa fields, but that doesn't mean that the breeder's bees, even if just 20 miles away, has access to any).


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Bummer. You may indeed be happier with Carni's. 

Were those bees Italians by any chance? My experience with them (a couple packages over the years) is that I hope the bees supercede the queen right away and get some local genetics in there. Italians work fine if you want bees, but don't do so well here where we have a definite dearth in late summer and early fall. They keep raising brood and eat all their stored honey, then starve in the late winter.

Next time, when you feed for fall you should get enough hive-top feeders to feed all your hives. Expensive to start with, yes, but with a 4 gallon feeder you can flood them with 2:1 syrup and force them to store it rather than raise brood. I've had a hive suck down 9 gallons of 1:1 in the fall (I was feeding for comb production, the hive was way too light on drawn comb to suit me) in a week or so. Saved it from certain death, I'm sure, as it was very light and made it through just fine. Lost it to hive beetles after a bad split, but that's a different story. If you attempt to feed them with anything that can only be taken up slowly, you will get brood with Italians even in the fall, not stores. Just the nature of the strain of bees. They also fail to slow down brood production in a pollen or nectar dearth as well, also bad. 

You should also feed at least half a pound of protein supplement per hive in the fall as well, that way you know you have well fed, high protein bees going into winter. 

Reminds me that I need to go out and check my hive tomorrow for weight.

Peter


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Dominic said:


> While I prefer carnies, italians can overwinter good too. Up in Canada, the vast majority of bees are italians (95% in Québec, I think), so if they can survive our winters, they can certainly do fine in Kansas.


Italians winter just fine in the north, you just have to understand that they will need supplemental feeding going into fall because of their brood rearing tendencies. You could also just leave them a couple supers of honey that you were going to harvest, but who really wants to do that? In my opinion, there is no better bee for honey production than the Italian, so that's what I use completely.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've observed that local feral survivors build up at the right times and drop back at the right times where west coast and southern bees build up too much at the wrong times and drop back at the wrong times. And beyond that the southern bees simply don't survive winter very well. The local survivors not only survive at a much higher rate (like 90% survival rate for local survivors compared to 10% survival rate for California packages some winters) but they do so on less stores with a smaller cluster. Local feral survivors, in my experience made a HUGE difference in winter survival.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

mr. bush is correct I think about the importance of local genetics. I did a nice day mid winter check yesterday, 2 hives were dead with big piles of dead bees in the corners and no sign of other problems, they both had untouched full [10] deeps of fully capped honey. these were 2 exceptional performers started last summer. the other hives also started last summer from 2 other sources are fine. the one weak one that I put on sugar a month ago [way too light]. was busy at the sugar, they got one of the full deeps... I would strongly suggest starting over with a couple of hives each from a number of different sources so you can find what survives and thrives for you...the 2 that died out were commercial italian type. the ones doing ok were local mixed local [amish] and one of carni-Russian mix. the carni-Russians that I have tryed do not impress me as much with their late summer performance... great summer performance and no winter tolerance is not what I want, it would be perfect for a migratory operator like the good folks I got these from. it has been cold ,below zero with days of -30 f windchill....I am now rethinking what to do next I had planned to expand this with this commercial itallian type ,now it does not seem like as good an idea as a few days ago.i may try a couple of these commercial itallians again but it will be with caution... I too went into winter with 7 hives started this year I am real glad they came from 3 very different places..


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

On the ones that were dead.......... it "sounds like" what a mite infestation would do. Did you test for mites if so did you treat? 

Larry


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

snl,,, I checked for mites about 8/1 they were low. but I think you may be correct in hind site. i got some apivar but the weather turned real bad early this fall about the time it came, i never got to it , a mistake i think.


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## oldreliable (Jan 29, 2011)

I dont really understand the concern over southern bees and northern bees when purchasing. southern packages sent north can be re-queened with northern reared queens if you are concerned over genetics. Honey Bees adapt well. Our environment is not adapting well to the honey bee and we are destroying the honeybees ability to adapt thats all. I had 4 locally cutout hives that have survived 3 years fine..this winter lost them. I do not treat hives I do not feed hives. strong survive, weak do not.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

mathesonequip said:


> snl,,, I checked for mites about 8/1 they were low.


How did you check? If just looking at mite drop, that's unreliable. The only mites (IMO) that drop, were the ones that fell off, were dying or were in fact dead!


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

oldreliable said:


> I do not treat hives I do not feed hives. strong survive, weak do not.


Weak hives are sometimes not weak due to genetics, they are weak due to mites. Strong hives succumb to mites also........


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## frankthomas (Aug 2, 2012)

Sorry Pharmbee. You do however, have real valuable assetts in the drawn comb. So it is far from a total loss. But it still sucks. With this hard winter there will be a lot of sucking to go around.


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