# What is the best size box for brood (and why)?



## sistone (Feb 20, 2007)

*Weight...*

Either will work, it's more important to decide how much you want to lift. I am using mediums for the brood box and some honey supers, that way I can rotate the brood boxes if I need to. I will also use shallows for comb honey or maybe Rossman Rounds next year.

Deeps can get pretty heavy when used for either brood or honey, even when partial filled. I had to move one to make adjustments to the stand. Ooff. Do a search for weights. I know that someone posted the info here a couple of weeks ago, or check M. Bushes website I'm sure he has it out there also.

Have fun.


----------



## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Brood chamber box size is usually a personnal preferance thing. I use deeps for brood, but for honey I use mediums or shallows. It really helps if one keeps all the boxes the same size, as it allows for frame exchange between boxes should that be nesacery. If you don't use queen excluders between the brood chamber and the honey supers, you may end up with the queen laying in the supers, this is where frame exchange comes in handy.

Most older beekeepers find lifting deeps full of honey extremely taxing, and they go to using all mediums for brood chambers and supers. I think you should think about your situation, and make a choice based on your abilities to handle full boxes of honey, and of course the ability to exchange frames among the boxes. A full deep of honey weighs 90 pounds, a medium weighs about 45 pounds.


----------



## sistone (Feb 20, 2007)

There's the answer, I knew someone had it. I just couldn't remember, but I knew it was a weight I didn't want to even think about.


----------



## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

First off, welcome to the board from a fellow Wisconsinite!!

A couple other factors as to whether to use the brood chamber mediums for honey. First is color. While some swear the dark comb doesn't effect the color of the honey, the darker comb may effect the final color of the cappings wax.
Another consideration is if these ex brood boxes had been treated with any sort of miticides, antibiotics, etc. You don't want this stuff in your honey supers.

If I were you I would decide whether to use deeps in the brood box or mediums, and use your existing equipment for that. If you go with deep honey supers (you like liftng 90#s? )you are set with the existing deep honey supers. If you want to go to medium supers I would start out with new medium equipment.
Sheri


----------



## beegee (Jun 3, 2003)

I like deeps for brood, because I feel as if it comes closest to the bees' natural building instincts, which is vertical, not horizontal. I just like seeing the vast expanse of sealed brood. Lots of guys are going to all mediums for the weight issue, and some are using 8 frame equipment for the same reason. I like mediums for honey, mostly becasue I'm used to gauging production on medium frames. Also I use a lot of permacomb, and it only fits medium boxes. I try to build up to 2 deeps and as many honey supers as they can use. Then I can split the deeps into 1-1/2 story hives for pollination or increase and overwintering(I'm in the South).


----------



## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

Thanks for everyone's feedback. I think I am going to use my existing deeps for brood now, and add the mediums for additional brood. My back isn't like it used to be..., so I think I will bring them all to mediums in the future.

JohnK and Sheri - thanks for the Wisconsin welcome! My great grandfather had a farm near Owen, and I have relatives living in Thorp. Nice area. What are your bees feeding on now? Red clover has started here. It has been dry, but yesterday we got some rain (as I am certain that you did, too!). Oaks in bloom, Basswood should be blooming very soon. I hope that the farmer across the road takes his time cutting his alfalfa - he tends to get to it after it blooms.

MapMan


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I like deeps for brood, because I feel as if it comes closest to the bees' natural building instincts,

I think the closest to the bees' natural building instincts, of the standard sizes, is Dadant Deeps (11 5/8" boxes and 11 1/4" frames). The comb size is more the size of a typical brood nest comb. The queen can lay in a circle large enough that she is satisfied to stay in it. Deeps (9 5/8" boxes with 9 1/4" frames) are enough less that she is not satisfied. She will eventually want to move up but it's close enough that she will hesitate to do so. A medium is definitely not enough for her and she will usually not hesitate at all to move up to the next box to lay.

Weight is why I went to all eight frame mediums. 48 pounds vs 90 pounds.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm


----------



## Dane Bramage (May 11, 2007)

*compatibility*

I had considered mediums when I first started. Compatibility with commercial beeks in the area dictated deeps. If you're going to want to exchange frames, purchase nucs, etc., compatibility is key (anyone making medium nucs?). All the nucs I purchased this year were deeps and I've encountered no one offering nor even using mediums. (ymmv, of course)


----------



## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Dane Bramage said:


> I had considered mediums when I first started. Compatibility with commercial beeks in the area dictated deeps. If you're going to want to exchange frames, purchase nucs, etc., compatibility is key (anyone making medium nucs?). All the nucs I purchased this year were deeps and I've encountered no one offering nor even using mediums. (ymmv, of course)


There are several members on here who offer medium nucs, I will be offering some next year .


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>Most older beekeepers find lifting deeps full of honey extremely taxing . . .

Older?????


>A full deep of honey weighs 90 pounds . . .

Yep! But . . .

Most "older" beekeepers do not have BROOD chambers FULL of honey 


Deeps w/ shallows are BEST


----------



## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

*Be warry of what you overwinter with.*

The former Secretary/Treasurer of my association came from beekeeping in Ohio and he used two deeps for the brood box. However, when he moved to South Carolina he tried to overwinter w/two deeps and there was too much room and his colonies died. Here in South Carolina we use one deep and one medium (three meds, or four shallows) for our brood, then a queen excluder on top. Monitor how much space your queen uses and then consider what to use for a brood chamber.

I wouldn't use your med frames for honey, just because it's been used for brood and you've got the brood waste and stuff in there (that's what makes the comb dark).

Good luck with your bees!

-Nathanael


----------



## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

I didn't mean for this query to go the Chevy vs. Ford route . 

I can see that there isn't any "right" way, but preferences based on situation (lifting - health/age of beek), climate (overwintering and availability of foodstuffs), strength of queen, hive, etc.

I'm adventurous, so I think in retrospect I will try either deep and mediums for brood based on queen and strength of hive, and mediums for honey. No way to learn but to try different ways, correct? 

Thanks again, everyone-

MapMan


----------



## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Dave W said:


> >Most older beekeepers find lifting deeps full of honey extremely taxing . . .
> 
> Older?????
> 
> ...


In the interest of keeping everything uniform so one could switch frames between boxes, if you use deeps for both brood and honey supers, then......... .


----------



## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

_<I didn't mean for this query to go the Chevy vs. Ford route .>_

MapMan,
oooooh! don't tempt me like that. Actually Dodge and Jeep are the best! LOL!!

_<No way to learn but to try different ways, correct?>_

Right on!! 

-Nathanael


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Most "older" beekeepers do not have BROOD chambers FULL of honey.

Sure they do. If you run double deeps you will often have brood chambers full of honey. Especially if they decided to swarm.

Richard Taylor in The Joys of Beekeeping says:
"...no man's back is unbreakable and even beekeepers grow older. When full, a mere shallow super is heavy, weighing forty pounds or more. Deep supers, when filled, are ponderous beyond practical limit."

Jim Fischer says:
"Friends don't let friends lift deeps"


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Yes, a _*completely full*_ shallow can weigh 40 lbs, but it is rare to
get a chock-a-block honey super, if one is pulling supers in
a timely manner, so in actual practice, one is getting more like
30 lbs from shallows, and 40 or 50 from mediums.

The trick here is having a pile of boxes of drawn comb, and a
refractometer. How many boxes of drawn comb? One can
simply never have "enough". One stacks supers all at once,
as early as weather permits, so that the bees have all the
space they need for the distribution of all those individual
drops of nectar, one per cell, and one tends to see the bees
thereby maximize the harvestable crop.

The refractometer is used to test a few frames from the 
topmost super, and see if one has honey yet. Waiting
around for capping of the frames wastes the bee's time
and energy, and wastes your time and energy uncapping
what they capped. One can never avoid 100% of capping
and uncapping, but one can avoid the bulk of it. Often,
one ends up being selective, taking some supers off, and
leaving others on depending upon refractometer readings.

So, one harvests, extracts, and gets the supers back on
the hives where the bees will be motivated by all that
empty drawn comb to go forage for more groceries.

But yeah, deeps suck.
Commercial pollination outfits love deeps, but they have
trucks, forklifts, and other capital equipment to do the
heavy lifting.


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>keeping everything uniform so one could switch frames between boxes . . .

I like to keep all my posion in ONE box 

For some reason, I dont think putting brood frames in my honey boxs are a good idea. In all my years of beekeeping  , I have never moved (relocated) frames. Brood frames remain in brood chambers, honey frames in honey supers.

But, what ever works!


----------



## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

*brame-*

>(ymmv, of course)
vats dis meen?


----------



## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

jim b:

ymmv = *y*our *m*ileage *m*ay *v*ary

MM


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Jim Fischer said:


> One stacks supers all at once,
> as early as weather permits, so that the bees have all the
> space they need for the distribution of all those individual
> drops of nectar, one per cell, and one tends to see the bees
> ...


----------



## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

Thanks MapMan.

To throw the perverbial wrench and for entertainment value, take a look at the thread last posted to on 02may over on Biological entitled "Broodnest Structure".
There's a picture of a double deep.

I cannot condone this arrangement, at least not yet. I did put a nice swarm into mine, but i have not had the opportunity to check on them since. I may be in for an unpleasant surprise.
-j


----------



## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

Jim b:

That is one large proverbial wrench...

odfrank:

You are correct in one having to assess climate, even microclimes. I have my hives in hilly country, and the valley imposes a change in temperature of 8-15°F lower than the ridge area 2 miles away. Lowest temp last winter was -28°F, year before -43°F. It is very pleasant in summer, though!

My Amish neighbor has been able to get excess of 100 lbs honey per hive in a very good year, but with me just starting out, I will settle for 10 lbs!

Timing must be critical for placement of honey supers - I just want to get the brood up in numbers to take advantage of the June flow. So, the question now starts to be more in the area of how do I bring up brood numbers by the timely addition of brood boxes (and number of brood boxes) - while avoiding the prospect of swarming, and when ideally would I add honey supers... _Timing_ appears to be the critical issue. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find information on recommended times of beehive management in my location, either. Ahhhh... to be new in beekeeping, with so many questions!

MM


----------



## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

*Reading materials*

MM-

Do a search on Walt Wrights' "Nectar Management".
He offers a small publication that is well worth the pittance he asks for it.
I still pore over it and find something new to understand each time.

Also check Michael Bush's website for info on opening up the broodnest, among lots of other valuable stuff to consider.
>www.bushfarms.com


----------



## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Assuming you have drawn comb, they should be in double deeps well before now. We have found it critical to have hive strength sufficient to take advantage of the dandelion bloom starting about the 10th of May (up by us in Owen, probably earlier by you) if you want a good surplus. The bees really use that nectar flow and pollen to build bees.
We take our bees to CA for the winter now, but we used to overwinter most everything here in double deeps, although some overwintered in story and 1/2. As early as possible, during first assessments we would put another medium on the story and 1/2s, with no excluder, allowing the Q access for laying in that medium. After that was well laid in we would push the Q down and put an excluder under that brood. By the end of May there should be two mediums on them and then it is (hopefully) off to the races trying to keep up with them. Depending on the flow there might be 4 supers on by the time we start pulling, about the first of July. You could just stack on 4 supers at once and leave them to it for a month. 

(There has been much discussion about whether to use excluders and if so, when to put them on, and if not, how to create a honey dome to keep the queen down, that is another discussion. )

We start extracting first week of July, 2nd week latest, and put extracted supers back on as full ones are taken off, usually 2 right away. We might have a week or two wait in August for the bees to get going on the fall crop, mostly goldenrod and aster, before we do the last pull,but normally all the supers are off and we are done extracting by last week of September, which allows time to treat and feed them for winter.
Timeing will be different down by you but this is how we manage the flow in Wisconsin.
Sheri


----------



## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

Thank you Sheri - 

My package bee hives are slow going - about 60% drawn on foundation, so I think I might wait a week before I put mediums on them. The nuc is another story; it is really moving, I have already added a drawn medium to it, and they are busy bringing in stores. I'm certain that after the packages are established they will move along fine. 

Getting the packaged hives established is taking more time than I had anticipated.

MM


----------



## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

MM
Are you still feeding the packages? How bout pollen supliment? Drawing comb takes lots of resources. Packages have a lot of catching up to do even with drawn comb...they can go backwards a bit before they start to gain because of the break in the brood cycle.
Our flow really slows down up here after dandelion and fruit trees are done and before the clover comes in, if it's the same in your area you might want to help them out.
Sheri


----------



## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

Yes, I'm still feeding, and they (of course) take it all. But, I'm using a pollen substitute Vit-a-bee (from B&B Honey Farms), and only the nuc has used it - the packages essentially ignore it. I'm making it into patties, wrapped in waxed paper. Don't have pollen, yet. 

White clover is blooming now, red is also - but I notice that red isn't utilized as much by the bees - too far to reach into? Locust is in bloom too. We have had a dry spring up to a smaller rainfall just recently, and very windy most days, like today.

I see more activity at the hives now than a week or two ago, but they are not drawing the comb too much. The weakest hive has a spotty brood pattern, probably a laying worker, this is the one that had a supercedure cell. The others have good brood, good pollen, not too much nectar, though. Again, I'm very impressed with the nuc - I wish they were all that vigorous. 

MM


----------

