# Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

sounds good, but try it on your hives first! I would be very worried about the dispersing levels. The vaporizers ae easy and simple... get 2 or 3 going and its a cake walk. I can tell you that the "fog " will be harder to control application location in the hive given the faster time period. 
the vaporizer takes about 5 minutes to disperse.

I can also tell you its nasty stuff. not sure how close you want to be to that fog...


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

capathome said:


> The common dosage of 1 gram per brood box can be administered quickly,


I believe that 1 gram is the common dosage for "vaporization". 
Using a fogger as a "liquid" dispensing unit I wonder if the dosage should be calculated based on the dribble method concentration?


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## capathome (Sep 20, 2011)

I would think that a gram delivered by vaporization is fully integrated into the hive. I would think that a gram delivered by dribble method assuming 20% of the dribble runs off would be actual .8 gram dosed. I am confident that with the breadth of knowledge on this forum we can get dosage right. 

My concern is about using this delivery method.

I do have an acid gas respirator.

capathome


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

We were talking on another thread that the "fog method is based more on the time of exposure than actual concentration level not my area of expertise....


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The temperature range of Oxalic acid vaporization is quite narrow; around 315 deg. F. Below that it will not evaporate and if you go much above that it breaks down into formic acid vapor, and carbon monoxide. What is the temperature of a fogger? How well will it stand up to acid?


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

I've never treated with OA, and have no experience with using it. It occured to me that if the idea is to get it into "fog" form, it might be possible to use one of the ultrasonic humidifiers to vaporize a liquid containing some concentration of OA. Like I said, I've never tried it for the application of a chemical, but I used to used it as a means to control moisture levels for my tropical pet scorpions and it worked well.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

capathome said:


> The dribble method requires a partial disassembly of the hive and dribbling between each frame of the entire hive. A huge amount of labor. I wont even consider it.


Capathome,

The oxalic drible method is not as much work as you think. It is quick and easy, either tip the lid forward and drible each seam of bees. Or, tip the upper hive body forwad and treat each seam of bees in both bodies.

A syringe or small hand pump sparyer can be used drible the OA.

Unless you have a colony you didn't mind sacrificing I would be leery of trying a new delivery system.

Tom


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## capathome (Sep 20, 2011)

crofter said:


> The temperature range of Oxalic acid vaporization is quite narrow; around 315 deg. F. Below that it will not evaporate and if you go much above that it breaks down into formic acid vapor, and carbon monoxide. What is the temperature of a fogger? How well will it stand up to acid?


Am I safe to assume that if OA works as a heated vapor and it works as a wet room temperature dribble, it will also work somewhere in between these 2 temperature ranges as a roughly 200 degree (though cooling VERY quickly) fog?
capathome

The foggers have some aluminum, steel and brass parts. They can easily be neutralized after using.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

crofter said:


> The temperature range of Oxalic acid vaporization is quite narrow; around 315 deg. F.


I don't think you would have sublimation of the OA until it is free of water. Delivering the acid via a fogger will keep the acid suspended in a liquid solution, and it seems that the application would more resemble a "misting" of dribble solution throughout the hive rather than crystal deposits through vaporization.


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## capathome (Sep 20, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I don't think you would have sublimation of the OA until it is free of water. Delivering the acid via a fogger will keep the acid suspended in a liquid solution, and it seems that the application would more resemble a "misting" of dribble solution throughout the hive rather than crystal deposits through vaporization.


Exactly what I was thinking! Recent reading here on Beesource has led me to think that as the dribble evaporates, it leaves behind the active crystals.
capathome


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I'm afraid I missed those discussions. Will the acid left behind after water evaporates from a mixed solution be the same as acid that has been heated and vaporized?

I should have paid more attention in Chemistry class. :s


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I did see another thread where someone suggested that the syrup dribble solution evaporates leaving behind crystals however I am not inclined to believe this hypotheses. I think the OA would turn the sugar syrup acidic which would in turn burn the mites when they come in contact with it, and the bees clean up the syrup by ingesting it. Oxalic vaporization is a whole nother animal which actually does form crystals. The fogging idea would be similar to the dribble but without the syrup to hold it in suspension therefor would be more prone to being absorbed quickly into the surrounding wood present in the hive, fogging would probably be affective but more so if it could be applied directly onto the bees.


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## capathome (Sep 20, 2011)

It is my understanding that the acid forms crystals within the hive as it cools from a vapor when using a heated vaporizer. I can attest to this as I had bees exiting the hive with white crystals all over them when I used my makeshift vaporizer. 
There is some considerable discussion as to HOW OA works on the varroa mite. Certainly NOT my area of expertise.
For me, that it does work is what is important.
As to your question, I'm not certain if the sublimation of OA as a vapor leaves a different "crystal" than the simple dehydration of a water/OA solution.
I guess it goes back to if dribble works, and sublimation works why would a fog (a middle ground of application method) not work?
capathome

Does OA work differently depending on how it is applied?


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

If spraying with a hand pumped sprayer produces up to 98% mite kill, the only advantage I see of a fogger is speed of application. Using the % OA mix for the hand pumped sprayer may be a good place to start.

30g OA dih in 1 l water.
That is sprayed at 3-4 ml per comb side

Thats taken from "Bee tolerances of different winter varroa treatments". Found on the link below.

http://tinyurl.com/nsl458r


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

WWW said:


> fogging would probably be affective but more so if it could be applied directly onto the bees.


I tried Thymol/FGMO fogging years ago and can attest that the fogger does an excellent job of dispersing fog throughout the interior of the hive and contacting a high percentage of the bees.

I wonder if OA could be fogged with better contact and residual effect if using FGMO as the vehicle for dispersion?


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## capathome (Sep 20, 2011)

Exactly! While the dribble method is more labor intensive, I could do it. However, I run 3 mediums as a brood nest so it would require removal of one box to the ground then tilting of the second.
Also would not want to use the dribble method when it is cold due to the excess moisture in the hive, precisely the time when I am looking at OA treatments on broodless bees.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I like your idea Mike, perhaps this FMGO/Oxalic mixture, is something that capathome can try in his trials, the correct percent of OA would need to be calculated but this is not my area of expertise.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

I used Thymol/FGMO too. I agree the fogging unit does a good job, the main reason I would love to see the fogger work is that treatment is so quick, literally seconds per hive.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Fogging sure would be an easy delivery method. There still seems to be a lot of mystery behind how the OA actually effects the mites. It might be that the acid must be in a dry state, dehydrated, to work correctly. The oil might not allow the same type of action as the dry acid. Only one way to find out.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Fogging sure would be an easy delivery method. There still seems to be a lot of mystery behind how the OA actually effects the mites. It might be that the acid must be in a dry state, dehydrated, to work correctly. The oil might not allow the same type of action as the dry acid. Only one way to find out.


Really? I thought the method of interaction was well known???


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I've seen a few different theories to explain it, but nothing scientifically conclusive yet.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Captahome

Dribbling and evaporation are two total different ways.

When you dribble the acid on the bees, they have to clean each other and the acid-sugar solution ends up in there stomach. This is hard on the bees and shorten the life. You should do it only on time per bee generation, that means, during summer maximal every approx 7 weeks. During wintertime, a second acid treatment can kill the bees within a few weeks.

With a vaporizer you create an acid fog inside the hive, that's why the hive must be closed for at least 10 minutes after evaporation otherwise bees blow the fog out the hive. 
After 10 minutes the fog is gone, but everything in the hive is covert with microscopic fine acid drops. As soon as mites coming in contact with this acid it kills them, no harm to the bees. The acid is outside on the bees and not in there stomach, that's why we can treat ones a week. 

When using a torch with blower or a pipe, there can be a big problem for the beekeeper... and with the result. First you work close to the hive in the acid fog and can't stay away like with the electric vaporizer. 
If you are not slowly heating up, the acid in the pipe it is destroyed from overheating before it can come out the pipe. You see smoke coming out, but this is most from the water that the acid contains. If you see white powder left in the pipe, that is ash and an indicator your treatment might bring you not the result you are looking for.

I have a Heiser JB200 with an open pan and approx 5-6 meter wire (15feet) that works great, the acid is gone in the hive before it is destroyed from the heat. Use a long wire and stay away from the hive.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I'm afraid I missed those discussions. Will the acid left behind after water evaporates from a mixed solution be the same as acid that has been heated and vaporized?
> 
> I should have paid more attention in Chemistry class. :s


It would be the same substance


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Axtmann said:


> After 10 minutes the fog is gone, but everything in the hive is covert with microscopic fine acid drops. As soon as mites coming in contact with this acid it kills them, no harm to the bees.


My research tells me that it is not "instant contact" with the OA that kills the mites, rather is over a period of several days.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

snl said:


> My research tells me that it is not "instant contact" with the OA that kills the mites, rather is over a period of several days.


My observations with using the sublimation method is that it does continue for a few days, but the biggest kill of mites is over the first 24 hours after treatment, if the bees are broodless the mites are pretty much all dead after three days.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

TWall said:


> Unless you have a colony you didn't mind sacrificing I would be leery of trying a new delivery system.
> 
> Tom


Correct, Tom. It seems capathome is assuming the risk and not asking anyone else to try this...and yes, I'd be a little leery as well. But God bless this adventurous beekeeper and his pioneeering bravado! As a former fogger of FGMO + E.O.s, he's caught my curiosity. I found fogging FGMO did not improve my hives per mite counts and fell back to smoking sumac berries. Fogging OA may work, maybe not. Who is to know until someone steps up to the plate and takes a swing.

Hope to hear a follow up report.

Grant
Jackson, MO https://www.createspace.com/4111886


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

here is something to consider

" Vaporized OA does form tiny spiky crystals, as does OA evaporated from a water solution. But oxalic dissolved in sugar syrup dries to a clear, smooth, candy that shows no crystal structure (personal microscopic observations). The rub is, OA is only effective when dribbled in a sugar solution (Anon 1999), not in plain water. So go figure! " Randy Oliver.

Finding the right carrier maybe the key.


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## capathome (Sep 20, 2011)

Thanks for the confirmation Chemguy. I thought it should be the same.

So does OA kill as a contact pesticide ie. acid burn on the exoskeleton of the mite? Or the sharp crystals scraping away the exoskeleton, similar to diatomaceous earth?
Does the OA in a dribble syrup have a different mode of action with the mite or is it just a sticky acid? Everything in the hive is coated with wax and a plain water OA solution would roll on down the frame and drop out the hive. So the sugar is there just to make it stick to the frames and bees?

capathome


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## capathome (Sep 20, 2011)

So I spent the morning in the workshop tinkering with the Burgess propane fogger. It turns out that I cannot get this apparatus to produce the kind of steamy fog that I had hoped. It does fantastic with oil based products like FGMO but will only spit and sputter with a straight water solution. 

FWIW, I tested the pump mechanism and mine produces exactly 2 grams of water per squeeze of the pump trigger. Thought this was going to be a no brainer!

The back pressure in the heated tubes allows some of the dose to return to the supply tank so the metering cannot be trusted in use. It also superheated some of the steam as it exited the nozzle so frying some bees would be a given.

As an experiment, I set up an old deep with 10 dummy frames made of 3/4 inch plywood to simulate the hive. I then shot the fogger into the opening above the landing board. With a plexiglass top, I could visually confirm that what steam the fogger did produce was very well distributed throughout the hive with very few heavy spots. It easily coated the underside of the plexiglass with a very fine mist.

So my conclusion is that distributing OA as a fine mist/fog delivered through the front opening will evenly coat the frames and bees if I can get the apparatus to produce it.

Just for jollies, I picked up a gravity feed paint gun. These are hooked to an air compressor. Using the same deep box/frame set up, I was able to deliver a superfine fog of mist into the box. If the truck was close to the apiary and I hauled around my portable air compressor, I might be tempted to try this at some point.
But, the whole exercise was about being easy to use and portable so for those, I call it a bust. Unless I can find an oil based carrier for the OA??????

capathome


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

You don't think that FGMO would work?


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## capathome (Sep 20, 2011)

I dont think the acid will mix with an oil. Most acids are degreasers. Maybe chemguy can help with the quest?
capathome


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

sounds to me like others have already tried this and settled on the vaporizer.... buy two.... it goes faster! and its really simple....


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Don't give up yet. You never know what you might stumble upon.

I wonder what they thought about the first guy who tried incinerating acid in his beehive.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

capathome said:


> Thanks for the confirmation Chemguy. I thought it should be the same.
> 
> So does OA kill as a contact pesticide ie. acid burn on the exoskeleton of the mite? Or the sharp crystals scraping away the exoskeleton, similar to diatomaceous earth?
> capathome


I think that it is a contact pesticide. Aren't mite exoskeleta less robust than those of insects? If so, mites would be more susceptible to damage by OA than bees. That is an educated guess. As to whether it is the acidity (burning), mechanical aspects (cutting) , or metabolic toxicity (poison) of OA that is at work, I am not sure if that is known with certainty. I'd love to know.


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## capathome (Sep 20, 2011)

Oh I have not given up yet! I could modify the input side of the fogger. Still thinking about it.
capathome


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

capathome said:


> Just for jollies, I picked up a gravity feed paint gun. These are hooked to an air compressor. Using the same deep box/frame set up, I was able to deliver a superfine fog of mist into the box. If the truck was close to the apiary and I hauled around my portable air compressor, I might be tempted to try this at some point.
> But, the whole exercise was about being easy to use and portable so for those, I call it a bust. Unless I can find an oil based carrier for the OA?capathome


That cheap plastic air hose comes in 50 foot rolls and 100 foot rolls are easy to assemble. Just remember inhaling the vapor or mist is a significant risk from what I read.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

marshmasterpat said:


> Just remember inhaling the vapor or mist is a significant risk from what I read.


_*A VERY significant risk!!!!! Wear a mask and use goggles and gloves!
*_


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

snl said:


> _*A VERY significant risk!!!!! Wear a mask and use goggles and gloves!
> *_


 I agree, and also use full face respirator,gloves ect, but some research states the risks are not that high.

Evaporation of oxalic acid - a safe method for the user?
T. Gumpp, K.Drysch, M. Radjaipour, P. C. Dartsch (2003)

Thus, based upon the presented data, a commercial apiarist could use oxalic
acid treatments during the whole year 40 hours a week without damaging his
health.

Meaning of the results to apiarist's practice With evaporation- and
spraying-procedure of oxalic acid, beekeepers have possibilities of
treatment against varroatosis whose effectiveness and bee compatibility have
already convincingly been proven [11]. However, there were concerns that in
particular the evaporation procedure was injurious to user's health.

Overcautious scientists therefore warned about evaporating oxalic acid or
recommended preventive measures which made the procedure unpractical, e.g.
wearing ABC protection equipment. The presented study dispelled reservations
against both procedures concerning possible health risks, appropriate
application presupposed.





http://tinyurl.com/yaxszga


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Makes even less sense..... hauling the battery around is too much work, so we give that up for a highly expermental and possible dangerous method that requires a air compressor, power supply and hose??

Way to much reinventing the wheel, and i LOVE new ideas......(several patents in my name)


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

gmcharlie said:


> Way to much reinventing the wheel


Wheel??? You using the wheel?? I invented that! I want royalties!!!!!


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

My wheel is flat on one side for parking... Might want to wait till i perfect it...


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Beekeeper in thread below tried fogging oa. No results posted.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-204835.html


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

gmcharlie said:


> Makes even less sense..... hauling the battery around is too much work, so we give that up for a highly expermental and possible dangerous method that requires a air compressor, power supply and hose??
> 
> Way to much reinventing the wheel, and i LOVE new ideas......(several patents in my name)


Before you get too worked up about the "air compressor, power supply and hose", perhaps you should look again at the original post ... 



capathome said:


> Which brings me to the *propane fogger*.


:lookout:


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

beekuk said:


> http://tinyurl.com/yaxszga


Hi BeeKuk,

Do you have the actual link?

Larry


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

snl said:


> Hi BeeKuk,
> 
> Do you have the actual link?
> 
> Larry


 Hi Larry.
i hope this one works.
Evaporation of oxalic acid-a safe method for the user.
Right at the bottom of the link.

http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/02081/index.html?lang=en


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

beekuk said:


> Evaporation of oxalic acid-a safe method for the user.
> Right at the bottom of the link.


Thanks Pete.... it did give me a link to the PDF.


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## bbrowncods (Oct 10, 2012)

OA is a powder. Can't one just sprinkle it on the top bars and let the bees spread it around? Again, the dose would need to be figured out.


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## Bill Davis (Jul 16, 2012)

A bit off topic here but does oxalic acid do anything to kill trachea mites? I vaporize in the fall for varoa.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Bill Davis said:


> A bit off topic here but does oxalic acid do anything to kill trachea mites?


My research say that it kills BOTH trachea and varroa mites........


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

gmcharlie said:


> Makes even less sense..... hauling the battery around is too much work, so we give that up for a highly expermental and possible dangerous method that requires a air compressor, power supply and hose?? Way to much reinventing the wheel, and i LOVE new ideas......(several patents in my name)


gm - just doing my share to help others make money


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

bbrowncods said:


> OA is a powder. Can't one just sprinkle it on the top bars and let the bees spread it around?


No, OA mite kill does work in that manner. It must be dissolved or vaporized ......sure wish it were that easy...


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

snl said:


> My research say that it kills BOTH trachea and varroa mites........


snl .... your research say that it kills BOTH trachea and varroa mites. Where did you get this from? There is not even a single vaporizer on the market that kills tracheal mites.
Evaporated OA is an contact treatment outside the bees. If you trickle liquid syrup with OA, bees eat it and it comes in the blood of the bees.... this MIGTH clean up some tracheal mites. 
One treatment with Thymol (strips or paste) cleans out the tracheal mites faster before the first varroa gets killed.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Axtmann said:


> snl .... your research say that it kills BOTH trachea and varroa mites. Where did you get this from? T.


From Michael Bush's website "FGMO and (by some accounts) Oxalic acid will also kill them."


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Axtmann said:


> There is not even a single vaporizer on the market that kills tracheal mites.


Where did YOU get this from??


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Is tracheal mite a problem nowadays??


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