# Box joint help



## beau1206 (Jun 30, 2015)

I am going to try and build my own boxes this year, and decided to use box joints. My saw is only able to do 1/2in cuts with a dado blade and I want to do 3/4in joints. Just want to make sure I'm thinking correct. So I make my first pass with a 1/2in jig. Then for the second pass, do I just add a 1/4in piece of wood next to the 1/2in piece so space it correctly? I know how to set up the jig, and I have found the plan I want to use, just need to see if that is how I should do my cuts?


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## pezdaddy (Apr 15, 2016)

Could work. Why do you want 3/4"? I would think 1/2" is plenty strong and would probably save a lot of hassle.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

I'd look on craigslist for a more powerful saw. Must be a reason you're having trouble with a 3/4" stack and I suspect the saw is trying to tell you no. 
The first saw I got had a smaller shaft than the dado blades use and that was the signal to get another more powerful saw. 
Use your old one for rips. That way you can just leave it setup for deeps or mediums or whatever size you're using.
Storage space may be an issue I guess. Not everyone has a 2000 sq ft shed like I do.


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## beau1206 (Jun 30, 2015)

I was just worried they would be too small. If I just did the 1/2in, I'd glue each joint, but maybe only nail every other joint?


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Do 1/2" joints. It still works out perfectly for the last cut to fill the frame rest for both medium and deep boxes.

Working from the bottom edge, cut your joints in the 19-7/8" long sides starting with a finger. Leave the last finger at the top 5/8" wide. Cut your ends, also working bottom to top, starting with a notch at the bottom. Do not cut the last 5/8. Then trim 3/8" from the 5/8" wide top finger on the sides for the frame rest dado. This method makes sure that the 3/8" thick rabbet outside the frame rest can be secured to the side board which helps make it stronger so it is less likely to split out later when you pry a well propolized frame out.

I cut my finger joints before I cut the frame rest just because that frame rest rabbet is easy to have tear out on.

I cut my joints using a router and 1/2" spiral upcut bit, but it should still work out just fine on the table saw. I did make a sled for 3/4" box joints but since I have a dovetail machine that also does box joints its just much easier and faster to use it.


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## beau1206 (Jun 30, 2015)

Just bought this one to do the dado cuts. The next size up would have worked, but it was double the price.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Here are some boxes with 1/2 wide finger joints. They work just fine.


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## beau1206 (Jun 30, 2015)

Thank you. Upon looking at my equipment, that is how Mann lake cut their boxes as well. As you can tell, this is my first time trying this, need to iron the fine details out.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I've cut 3/4" and 1/2". Both are just fine. If 1/2" is what you can do....do it. You'll be OK and the bees will be happy. Don't sweat it.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

My table saw has a 3/8" arbor. I'm not screwing with that. So I just deal with butt joints.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Learning2b, you can do rabbet joints on a small saw with single blade, two passes.

Beau, I have a smaller saw as well and my dado stack is something like 7-8" and if I use a jig that most people make, it won't go high enough either, so check that it will cut in 3/4" when it sits on the jig, which is usually another 3/4". Just giving you heads up in case you make a jig for the 1/2" and still can't do it because of depth.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

2 Passes? Blade lasts half as long.
Not to mention extra time.
And the fact that buttjoints are just as suitable as box joints.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Butt joints are the _weakest_ of the various choices. If you use glue with butt joints, all of the glue joints are endgrain-to-facegrain (which makes a weak glue joint). If you do not use glue, then the only thing holding the box aligned and 'together' is the mechanical fasteners (screws, nails, staples, etc). 

With box joints, the top and bottom of each finger are facegrain glue joints. Box joints have an advantage of the wood itself interlocking, and if glue is used, the glue faces are facegrain wood (better glue strength). The total percentage of endgrain glued vs facegrain glued is dependent on how many fingers there are.

Rabbet joints offer less interlocking than most box joints, but more than butt joints. Rabbet glue joints have more glue area than butt joints, for a stronger glued rabbet joint than glued butt joints.

See post #17 below for more information.

.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

All this is true about butt joints. And bee box butt joints are endgrain joints. The worst possible kind of the worst joint. 

However, there are millions of butt joint bee boxes in the world and even though the bees get very close to the joints they don't seem to be complaining.

So if you do have to use butt joints, if you don't have other options, take these steps to make them stronger. 

 Use 2-1/2 or 3" long screws. You are screwing into end-grain, so you want a good long grip. 

Predrill the holes. Especailly because you are screwing into end grain. Novices are tempted to skip this step, but a predrilled hole at the correct diameter will hold better than one that is not. When you drive the screw into a predrilled hole the school threads cut a continuous spiral into the wood. When you drive a screw in without predrilling wood is crushed and pushed out of the way to make room for the screw shaft resulting in non-continuous thread engagement. Wood is also cracked and split, even if the splits don't come all the way to the surface, they are still there, leaving gaps in the thread gripping surface.

Drill the shank clearance hole. This is another step novices skip. If the screw doesn't have a shank, drill thread clearance. You want the screw to clamp the board down, threads here can actually separate the joint instead of securing it and prevent you from tightening the joint before the screw shears wood fibers.

You can buy a drill bit that will drill the pilot hole, the shank clearance hole, and the countersink all at once. 

Be careful to not over-tighten the screws. Since you are screwing into endgrain it is very easy to shear the wood fibers, leaving you with a screw hole that is good for nothing. 

When screwing into endgrain I place a small amount glue in the predrilled hole, the screw will push it into the wood fibers and when cured I believe it will add some reinforcement to the fibers. I don't have any evidence of this, it seems logical, if an expert who knows wood says I'm wrong then believe him. 

(Pilot hole size in picture is for pine/cedar. Increase by 1/64 for oak, poplar, cypress. )


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

I did not say butt joints are stronger. 
I don't use glue. Just 3* 3" deck screws on each corner. You can pull and throw and trash these boxes all you want, your not breaking them easy. And they are VERY suitable for beekeeping. 

Box joints- You're still gluing end grain. The reason they're stronger is because they interlock.


And I should of told OP this. Go to Michigan beekeepers workshop, and use 3/8" rabbet joints.


(I would be willing to bet, only in the case of beekeeping, that a rabbet joint would outlast a box joint.)


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

Learning2Bee said:


> Box joints- You're still gluing end grain. The reason they're stronger is because they interlock.


The strength of the box joint comes from the interlocking that you cite, but because of the flat, non-end-grain surfaces getting securely glued together, albeit at cross-grain orientation.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is an example box joint ....








photo credit
As you can see, a small portion of the joint is endgrain glued, but the top and bottom surfaces of each 'finger' are facegrain glued. The total percentage of endgrain glued vs facegrain glued is dependent on how many fingers there are.

As a comparison, a rabbet joint ...







 photo credit
Note the larger area of glue areas than a butt joint.

With a butt joint, there is *no* facegrain glue area, and a smaller glue area than a rabbet joint ...







 photo credit

.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

I know what a box joint is.

And the amount of glue in the flat surfaces is illogical.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Learning2Bee said:


> And the amount of glue in the flat surfaces[HIghlight] is illogical.[/HIghlight]


I'd love to see a photo illustration of that!! 


A box joint with only 4 fingers has less facegrain glue area than a box joint with 10 fingers, yet the amount of endgrain glue area is constant (with the same height boards). Hence the percentage of facegrain glue area varies with the finger count.

For example, there is _very little_ endgrain glue area percentage as there are many fingers here ...







photo credit


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Just do 1/2" box joints. That is what I do. No need for any metal during assembly as the glue is way stronger than the wood anyhow once dry. Either titebond or one of the polyurethane glues work fine. The metal will just rust and cause problems by giving water an entry point in a few years anyhow unless you use aluminum or stainless steel nails. I have boxes 40 years old that are still solid made this way. No way a rabbet joint will last that long unless you live in a desert.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

I'm not disputing the fact that a box joint is stronger then a butt joint.

I'm simply stating my opinion that a butt joint is suitable and a box joint is overkill.

And I'm also stating my experiences that rabbet joints hold up betting in full sunlight. The case that a beehive would be.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Well, nobody has even mentioned the " double splined tongued concave joint". Whats everybody's thought on it?


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)




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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

rookie2531 said:


> View attachment 31206


ROFL. I don't even see how that can be assembled, but the bees are certain to stand around admiring the craftsmanship of the bee keeper. /s


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

That joint probably only works with "Oak". And who wants a oak bee box...LOL...Wonder what that would weigh? ;/

==McBee7==


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I know lol. I just googled "funny wood joint" and this popped up.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

McBee7 said:


> That joint probably only works with "Oak". And who wants a oak bee box...LOL...Wonder what that would weigh? ;/
> 
> ==McBee7==


I have a couple oak wood boxes I made in a pinch. They weigh #15. Stupidest things.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

mcbee


> That joint probably only works with "Oak". And who wants a oak bee box...LOL...Wonder what that would weigh? ;/


Thats funny, all most all my boxes are made of hardwoods like oak. Yes they are heavy but for me very cheep. So far the bees don't care.
Cheers
gww


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

For the record, a beehive fell off my buddy's trailer and survived a 55 mph smash, tumble, roll, slide. The frames fell out and the bees were lost, but the box is still in service. Other joints WOULD NOT have held up, with the possible exception of the lockmiter joint with 2 biscuits. Butt and rabbet joints just do not have the strength, especially as the wood ages. By treating the wood with boiled linseed oil, my mentor's boxes lasted 40 years. Finger joints rock!

*********************
Beau - my suggestion would be to make your pushing sled with a set of split indexing pegs, 3/8" wide each by 3/4" tall. 

1. Scribe a line from the blade edge / spindle shoulder plane to the front of the table saw so you can visually line up the cuts on the sled.

2.Mark the notches to be cut with a pencil. Of course you know that the sides are different from each other - the pegs must be staggered.

3. Put both pegs down, make a 3/8" dado cut. Remove the workpiece.

4. Rotate the "Half peg" closest to the workpiece up and out of the way.

5. Move the workpiece against the 2nd "half peg", make a dado cut. You should now have your first 3/4" notch cutout. Remove the workpiece.

6. Rotate the first peg back down to the work stop position. Step the workpiece over so that the 3/4" notch is sitting on both pegs. Make the second 3/8" dado cut. Remove the workpiece.

7. Rotate the first peg up and out of the way. 

8. Place the workpiece such that the 3/4" notch is sitting on the 2nd "half peg", leaving the correct width of the finger. Make a dado cut. The second notch should now be 3/4" wide.

9 - end. Continue until the side is finished. Do all long sides as a group, then mark and cut one the short end. Check for fit. Cut the rest of the short ends. This should reduce mistakes.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Learning2Bee said:


> I'm not disputing the fact that a box joint is stronger then a butt joint.
> 
> I'm simply stating my opinion that a butt joint is suitable and a box joint is overkill.
> 
> And I'm also stating my experiences that rabbet joints hold up betting in full sunlight. The case that a beehive would be.


It takes me about ten minutes to cut box joints for a deep box. After all, it is only 18 total cuts per box for 1/2" joints that I use and even less for 3/4". I could probably do rabbets in five or a little more. Not much time savings to get second best by a big margin. Might be worth the time savings if your time is worth $250 an hour or more. If your time is that valuable why are you wasting it on bees?


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Richard Cryberg said:


> It takes me about ten minutes to cut box joints for a deep box. After all, it is only 18 total cuts per box for 1/2" joints that I use and even less for 3/4". I could probably do rabbets in five or a little more. Not much time savings to get second best by a big margin. Might be worth the time savings if your time is worth $250 an hour or more. If your time is that valuable why are you wasting it on bees?


It takes me longer. Plus wear and tear. 

I don't do rabbets, just butt joints.

Where did the $250 time figure come from? Who are you to say what's valuable to me?


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Learning2Bee said:


> It takes me longer. Plus wear and tear.
> 
> I don't do rabbets, just butt joints.
> 
> Where did the $250 time figure come from? Who are you to say what's valuable to me?


If someone wants to hire me as a consultant that is what I would charge for my time, including travel time, because for my skills that is the going rate. Double that for any time I need to spend in court as an expert witness. That is providing I was willing to work which I am not. After not working for 20 years you realize how revolting the work idea is. But, if work were not so revolting and I was willing to do it I would be better off working an extra few hours a year and buying the bee equipment assembled and painted.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Richard Cryberg said:


> If someone wants to hire me as a consultant that is what I would charge for my time, including travel time, because for my skills that is the going rate. Double that for any time I need to spend in court as an expert witness. That is providing I was willing to work which I am not. After not working for 20 years you realize how revolting the work idea is. But, if work were not so revolting and I was willing to do it I would be better off working an extra few hours a year and buying the bee equipment assembled and painted.



Why are we talking about you? I said what works for me. If it doesn't (work) for you, then do what does (work) for you.

I find that butt joints last just as long. My case, my weather scenarios, and my way of painting. It works for me.

I don't want to argue with you about senseless opinions.


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