# New Packages Have Diarrhea



## crozinbee (Feb 21, 2016)

I picked up several packages of bees on friday, 4 days ago. I installed them in their hives that evening. I made up several hive bodies with a combination of drawn comb, new foundation and (2) frames with last years honey. When I installed the packages I noticed that several of the bees had diarrhea, thought nothing of it. Last night I saw that there was quite a bit of diarrhea showing up on the landing boards of these (2) new hives. I wanted to ask what I should do to help them. I did mix some 1:1 and added fumigellin b. Should I remove the frames containing honey stores from last year? What would you do?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

first I would not feed fumagellin without a diagnosis of the need for it. Diarrhea is NOT a symptom of the most common form of nosema and it is a nasty antibiotic. I have never and never will use it.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Do you have any idea how long they were confined in the packages? Are you doing any supplemental feeding? If so, what are you giving them?


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## smokin_trout (May 27, 2014)

Was it honey in your drawn comb or nectar? If it was nectar, it could be fermented and causing the issue.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Bees that have been packaged for a while will develop diarrhea, if all the honey is capped it will be fine. Uncapped that has not been frozen throughout storage could be a problem in that it could ferment. As a rule it will be white and foamy and have an odor if fermented. Pull any syrup it should clear up in a few days. as dandelions and cherry are beginning to produce.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I would clean off the hive fronts and the entrance boards to see if it was still a current problem or a short-term response to being cooped up. 

I second the suggestion to get the fumadil-tainted syrup off the hive.

Enj.


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## crozinbee (Feb 21, 2016)

Thanks for the responses. The bees were in the packages for about 24 to 30 hours give or take a few. First I will pull off the fumigellin since I don't really know the cause of the diarrhea. Clean the landing boards and pull the old honey. I did freeze it but there was capped and uncapped cells. After all of your comments I bet the nector might be the cause. Thanks for the advice.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

crozinbee said:


> What would you do?


I would put the drawn comb together in the middle of the hive, pull out the other frames, replace them with foundationless, pull out the honey, feed a little 1:1 with nothing added, remove that after four or five days, and leave the bees alone unless there is a good reason to be in the hive. I would also consider stepping back and taking a hard look at my purposes for raising bees and my overall approach to keeping them. Others would do otherwise.


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## crozinbee (Feb 21, 2016)

Riverderwent, thanks for your response. My purpose for raising bees is tri-fold. They aid in the pollination of my fruit tree farm, customers fall over each other for the honey and I would like to do my part in aiding in the domestic honey bee come back. If I may ask why would you use foundationless as opposed to giving them a head start with wax foudation?


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

crozinbee said:


> If I may ask why would you use foundationless as opposed to giving them a head start with wax foudation?


I'm referring to the brood chamber. There is a very long explanation that I will try to grossly shorten by saying patience, locally adapted bees, cell size, temperature regulation, and not gifting shoes to a cobbler.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Foundation causes diarrhea, is that the implication here?

Package bees have the poops when you shake them out because they've been cooped up for a bit. Cleaning it off and seeing if it continues is sound advice. I wouldn't add anything to the syrup you're feeding them as the likelihood of you causing an issue with things you might think are helping is much greater than any real or perceived benefits.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Riverderwent said:


> not gifting shoes to a cobbler.


Anybody tries to put shoes in my cobbler is gonna get swatted!


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> Foundation causes diarrhea, is that the implication here?


Not hardly.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Riverderwent said:


> Not hardly.


So as a solution to a problem foundation doesn't cause, you prescribe that he removes the foundation? :scratch:

Or is the implication that cell size/foundationless cures the diarrhea?


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Swap to 1:1 syrup and leave them alone. Popular culture says that to much intrusion at this point will lead to abscond.


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## NiceTom (Jul 23, 2015)

For what it's worth, when I finished installing my packages, I spent a few minutes watching the 1st hive. A bee would come out, take flight, and then take a poop-each one that came out, same thing. The hives were all spotted with bee poop, my jacket too. I think somebody else mentioned something like that a few days ago. I'm inclined to say normal beehavior.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> So as a solution to a problem foundation doesn't cause, you prescribe that he removes the foundation? :scratch:
> 
> Or is the implication that cell size/foundationless cures the diarrhea?


I view the actual problem to be a little deeper than many folks would and my answer reflects that. The poop is not the problem. Some folks will get that and others won't. I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Well, the trolls are out


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

crozinbee said:


> Riverderwent, thanks for your response. My purpose for raising bees is tri-fold. They aid in the pollination of my fruit tree farm, customers fall over each other for the honey and I would like to do my part in aiding in the domestic honey bee come back. If I may ask why would you use foundationless as opposed to giving them a head start with wax foudation?


Well, I hate to break your bubble but honey bees do not need any more help "coming back." We have grown the number of colonies in the US at about a 3% rate for several years. We have all the colonies we need to do 100% of the pollination farmers want to pay for. Hive deaths in well managed operations are probably at all time lows. Historically if you go back and look at the records over the last 150+ years commercial guys have about 20 to 25% hives die each year except in disease epidemic years which happen roughly every 25 to 40 years. In epidemic years hive deaths typically are about 70% or higher. It generally takes no more than 12 months to recover from a 70% hive death loss historically. I would guess today many commercials that really take care of their bees see a hive death rate between 5% and 10%. This is the lowest it has ever been. The last epidemic was 2006 -07. It will be a long time before the next one chances are.

On the other hand back yard bee keepers are routinely killing hives at an alarming rate. From 50% to 70% is normal and 90% happens fairly often. The commercial guys love this as they are making a fortune selling package bees into this market as replacements. Those package bees are top notch bees and queens. The same thing the commercial guys use in production hives. The back yard bee keepers do little to maintain their bees health so they die. They do not feed sugar when there is no nectar and the bees need sugar so the bees starve to death. They do not feed pollen substitutes when there is no natural pollen and the bees need protein. Which, by the way they do not always need. They do not recognize European foul brood and do not do a simple treatment with antibiotics to cure it resulting in dwindling hives that die out. They do not control varroa mite populations with the general result that varroa transmitted viruses take over the hive in an epidemic fashion and weaken it to the point it dies over winter. They do not recognize a queenless hive and correct it promptly resulting in a hive of laying workers that eventually dies out. They do not recognize a failing queen (fairly uncommon actually) and replace her so the colony dwindles and dies. They let their colonies swarm and allow the replacement queen to mate with local junk feral genetics resulting in weak swarmy colonies that will not make any honey. And those are just the big mistakes they make over and over and over.

You are a farmer. You spray your trees I am sure to maintain tree health. You fertilize appropriately. Not too much and not too little and the right NPK balance. You prune your trees to the correct shape. Do not think you can just sit a hive of bees off in the corner and they will take care of themselves and never need help.

Let me tell you what a well maintained colony is doing today. I live in NE Ohio. We had several inches of snow on the ground a week ago and killing freezes. My fruit bloom is a week off yet. Dandilions are just starting to put on a decent bloom but no place close to peak bloom yet. My best colonies are storing excess honey in supers and drawing white comb yesterday. Those colonies were wintered in three ten frame deep brood chambers. So, they obviously have stuffed all three deeps full of something already of they would not be up in the honey supers. What does the average back yard bee keeper around me have going right now? Probably two or three frames of brood at this point. Those colonies will not be up to the strength my good ones are at today for another six weeks. Why are mine so good? Good genetics and good care by the bee keeper. Both are critical. Junk genetics and the best of care leads to junk results. I doubt if you grow johny appleseed apples to sell. Why keep junk queens?

Dick


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

nice rant:thumbsup:


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