# Tanging the Bees



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

So does anyone actually go on swarm calls with a pot and spoon if the swarm is in a tree? I've seen lots of pictures of ladders and cut branches, but if tanging works, why don't people use it?

Please post your stories, good experiences and bad, and especially any studies you might have seen on this subject! Why/how does it work? 

I can't figure out ANY sort of reason bees in the wild would want to move toward the sound of clanging metal...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I had never heard of Big Bear's idea that tanging was done to let other people know that the swarm was claimed. It makes sense tho. I've just not heard it before.

where did you hear that BBO?


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

well, let's see
I know of a few stories in older books that describe it. there is a wiki page on it too.

mostly from a couple stories I have read in old books, the person chasing the swarm clanged to let everyone else know it was theirs. this was back in pilgrim times when bees first came over, I expect it's a tradition that started in europe.
ownership thing.

the theory i have seen on how it works is that the bees are sensitive to the air vibrations the metal on metal clanging causes and disturbs them to the point thy must stop flying.

Big Bear


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## Daddy'sBees (Jul 1, 2010)

Hey BB. Wouldn't it be a hoot to see that on say,... UTube. Go for it BB.
:applause:


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

tell you all what. next spring when i start swarm chasing, I'll try the tanging thing see where it gets me. get it on video.

big Bear


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## Daddy'sBees (Jul 1, 2010)

Allright. Now that's what I'm talking about. Will this bee a dancing big bear with a spoon and pan?


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

well, ideally, I think you were supposed to use copper items. no dancing.

Big Bear


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

Supposedly there is a frequency that will stop bees from moving.. I've been reading a Russian book published in the 70's called "Bees and People" by Naum Ioyrish. In it he says, "The Roman poet Virgil, a beekeeper himself, wrote that a swarm of bees could be brought back to the hive by the sound of cymbals. And in fact, it has been noted in beekeeping literature in recent years that a frequency of 600 hertz from a vibrator or loudspeaker placed 60 to 120 centimetres from a hive causes bees to 'freeze' on the honeycomb; the beekeeper himself, however, finds this sound extremely hard to bear." He doesn't make any citations on this info, though he does in other areas of the book.


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## College Beekeeper (Jan 26, 2011)

Hello All- 
I'm writing a paper on tanging, and wondered if anyone had published accounts of tanging working (or not)? Anything in an encyclopedia, bee journal, historical, academic, anything, I'd be interested. 

Cheers,
Michael


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## Michael_C (May 22, 2012)

Here is a video of Schawee tanging a swarm at sma school. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok7SiHgzp04 
They did what he wanted, so I guess it was successful. I love to watch JPthebeeman and Schawee, the bickering beekeepers.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I wrote an ABJ article many years ago and explained the history. Now I'll have to look it up. Basically, the tanging has nothing to do with a swarm landing. In the days of old, prior to beekeeping in America, it was signal of ownership. If my swarm landed in your yard, it was yours...unless I chased the swarm with the clanging pot, etc., to "prove" ownership.

The vibrations mean nothing, the tone of the metal means nothing. Heck, if you follow a swarm long enough, far enough, and you're singing the Star Spangled Banner the whole way, that swarm is eventually going to land. I've heard you sing, "Happy Birthday," in Spanish and it will have the same affect. Just keep it up long enough for the swarm to land.

However....there's always someone who tanged a swirlling swarm down (only "works" on swarms in flight, BTW), and they will swear by tanging. So...it may not help, but by golly, it sure can't hurt. If I see a swarm in flight, I'm going to do everything possible, even if it means brushing up on my Spanish. So you guys just tang away. More power to you!

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

In my neck of the woods the old timers would pick up a piece of wood, a rock, or perhaps a dirt clod, what ever was handy and pitch it up through the swarm which would bring it down. 

Last year I almost lost a swarm with a marked queen but I just happened to be at the hives when they issued and took flight, I quickly looked around and found a piece of wood 6 or 8 inches long and tossed it up through the swarm, they immediately dropped down and landed in a peach tree where I was able to retrieve them.

Big Bear, I look forward to video, it will be interesting indeed, I have never tried tanging.


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

I thought Tanging Bees was a new way to feed them an tasty orange drink.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Grant said:


> ...The vibrations mean nothing, the tone of the metal means nothing. ...


 It is my understanding that bees are sensitive to vibrations, so it is possible that some frequency affects them. I saw a few videos on YouTube and authors swear that tangling works. I will try next time I saw swarm.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sergey, as you aught to know, perceived cause and effect is not always correct.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Sergey, as you aught to know, perceived cause and effect is not always correct.


Well,it is well known that rhythmical noise/sound and/or movements have a pacifying effect on babies. It also used in many meditation practices. People tried to understand the phenomenon for centuries but without great success. Somebody even put meditating monk into MRI scanner. I guess, the problem is that it works (if it works) on higher level and interact with the body as a whole. Our western scientific approach is opposite - we believe that if we will disassemble the entire system and learn each tiny part, it shall help us to understand how the system works as a whole...


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## BEEMAN0852 (Sep 6, 2008)

I read about this on the Internet a few years back and had a chance to use the tech-nick on two swarms, both in flight. I used a pipe and an aluminum pot both times. It did work and the in flight swarms landed on a low tree limb, easy to catch. From what I read the noise causes the bees to think bad weather and lighting are on the way and they need to land. Hope it works for you.


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## College Beekeeper (Jan 26, 2011)

Thanks to all for your replies and comments. 
It seems like some people swear by it, and others are skeptical. Well, that's what an experiment is for, and I'll be sure to let everyone know if/when a paper comes out. 
In the meantime, I'm still interested in any historical accounts of the method, whether for bringing down the bees by mimicking thunder, or just letting your neighbor know that you're not trespassing for no reason. Published accounts are the best, just cause then you can cite something that others can check up on (as opposed to saying 'Mr. X says it works').


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

If you are looking for published/historical accounts of this you might want to take a look at the Foxfire books.


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## HTC (Mar 17, 2012)

I to was wondering why anyone would want honey from Tang. Stuff never did taste good I think that is why UF came up with Gator Aid,

Not bees but look up alligators and B flat. Seems the male gators get turned on by a low B flat.
Local news paper link http://www.sptimes.com/2007/06/10/Features/Musical_note_sends_ga.shtml

Now on with the bee research.


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## DamSutt1986 (May 26, 2012)

I have also heard references to the sound being similar to thunder, and that is why the bees would land? I had a swarm leave a hive in the summer and went out with a pot and stick because I didn't know what else to do. After beating on it for a second they did land on a tree. For all I know, the queen could have been on the limb before I started though. I like the idea of throwing a large something through the swarm... as long as you don't manage to hit the queen!


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## millerwb (Oct 31, 2011)

jdmidwest said:


> i thought tanging bees was a new way to feed them an tasty orange drink.


roblol


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## Solarbeez (Apr 20, 2012)

My Warre hive seems to want to swarm. It's time for sure, it got through the winter with one box and now it's growing into the fourth box. Last week when it seemed like it was going to bust loose I tried the tanging thing. Well after a few minutes of banging a spoon on a cooking pot, most of the bees quit flying around and headed back into the hive. This happened 3 times last week. I shot video on the third time.
http://solarbeez.com/2013/05/07/tanging-a-swarm-or-not/
On the fourth time I didn't tang and again they filed back in after about 10-15 minutes. Yesterday, same thing but with greater numbers. I took some more photographs. Is this a real swarm that is being 'tanged back' in the hive or something the bees do under certain conditions tanging or no tanging? It's not that hot so I can't see that it would be bearding.


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## College Beekeeper (Jan 26, 2011)

Hey All- 
I did an experiment to test whether tanging works, and the results were conclusive: tanging does not work. The results were published in the December 2013 issue of the Journal of Apicultural Research. 
Check it out!: 
http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/Tanging-swarms


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## D.A.S. (Jun 17, 2011)

It is my humble opinion that the bees are looking for a new home, and by banging on something tells them there is a hollow cavity near by,this is exactly what they seek.in the wild they may bee attracted to the sound of a woodpecker drumming on a hollow tree.in days of old people may have grabbed whatever was at hand,say a pot,and started banging on it.when the swarm they are in a mission to find a new home. It might take them a few hours,or a couple of days.if banging on something (or drumming) works it may just bee something in there nature to come to.we tend to want to find a scientific answer to everything


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

My rooster claims almost every morning he made the sun rise cause he was crowing.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I did an experiment to test whether tanging works, and the results were conclusive: tanging does not work.

My suspicion is that it does not work. 

But how can you be conclusive? I'm afraid I don't have access to that page (it's blocked where I work) or I would read the study. Did you try every possible frequency and every possible volume? Every possible combination of those? Did you distinguish between those swarms that had not bivuaced and those who had and were now on their way?

Saying something works or not depends entirely on the details. I had a friend with a hole rusted through her well pressure tank. I suggested she get a self threading fine threaded oil pan plug, a rubber gasket that fits on that, a drill bit the diameter of the shaft of that plug (less than the threads) and some gasket sealer. Then drill the rusted spot out, put the gasket sealer on the plug and screw it in. Wait a while for the sealer to set and then turn the pump back on. The response I got was "we tried that and it didn't work". So I bought the plug and the bit and the gasket sealer and went over to see. There was a lag screw with a gasket in the hole. It was leaking. I fixed it just the way I described and as far as I know, a decade later, it is still working fine.

The point is, if I say you can fix a pressure tank with a screw a gasket and a rubber gasket you can easily prove it right or wrong depending on the details of how you interpreted the concept (or maybe how you want it to come out). Success and failure is not in the general statements, it's in the details of the execution and these are seldom present in all those stories about things like tanging. What were people using when it seemed to work? What were they using when it seemed to fail? What were the circumstances? Were the bees just leaving the hive? Of course they settled, bees always do with or without pans. Were the bees leaving the biviac? That might be more revealing...


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

College Beekeeper said:


> Thanks to all for your replies and comments.
> It seems like some people swear by it, and others are skeptical. Well, that's what an experiment is for, and I'll be sure to let everyone know if/when a paper comes out.


The honest truth of the matter is, swarms will eventually land, and there's no way of predicting exactly when or where. Experimentation isn't likely to yield much of interest - because if you "tang" and a swarm lands, there's no way of proving that they would not have landed had you not been making noise; conversely, if you do not "tang" and the swarm lands, there's no way of proving that the bees would not have landed sooner or in a more convenient spot had you been making noise.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Pots and pans "back in the day" tended to be larger than now, so it may even be that it USED to work with big pots and it MAY not work with small ones... It has always seemed kind of irrelevant to me as I'm always busy getting my stuff together to catch a swarm instead of running to get pots and pans...


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I've had great success when i set a pot and spoon a foot or two to the side of a point directly under a swarm on a branch, and a nuc or hive body with the cover slid back an inch or so opposite it the same distance away.

By giving the branch a sudden vigorous shake, the cluster falls to the ground and the bees march away from the pot and spoon and into the box.

This works well without the pot and spoon as well.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

If it doesn't work, the pot wasn't big enough...........


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If it doesn't work, the pot wasn't big enough........... 

But unfortunately, all I can every really prove is that THIS pot didn't work, not that every possible size of pot or combination of sizes of pots doesn't work. The hypothesis has to be specific to be able to actually "disprove" it to any degree at all. A general hyptothesis such as "banging pots will settle a swarm" can't really be disproved unless you define what kind, how many and how loud the pots are. That, you may have a chance of proving or disproving.

Your only other possibility is to prove that bees can't sense vibrations across the entire spectrum of what a pot can produce, in which case they can't even feel them so it can't make any difference. But can they feel them transmitted through the tree they are on? Through the air? There are still a few situations you would have to eliminate but at least a fairly finite list...


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> But can they feel them transmitted through the tree they are on?


All I know, is if they're on a tree and I can shake that tree, so that they fall into my pot.......


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Success and failure is not in the general statements, it's in the details of the execution and these are seldom present


If I could have said it this eloquent maybe I would have had better luck convincing the powers to be. Anyways the times I did get them to listen I turned out a hero.

What would it take to prove how it works if it does?


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Test two swarms at once perhaps? Three, four, five?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>All I know, is if they're on a tree and I can shake that tree, so that they fall into my pot....... 

I agree. It seems irrelevant to me...


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

I have found that music works best for me more so than pots and pans. Bees in my area are surprisingly more cultured than I anticipated though. They by far prefer Tchaikovsky! /s


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

After many years of hauling my hives during pollination work, I noticed at the end of t he trips, that the gentle vibrations caused by the truck's motor running would keep the bees in their screened hives while we were unloading them. Whenever the motor was turned off while unloading, the bees would then be much more active in leaving their hives and stinging. Bees definitely can be controlled by using vibrations. Granted, it's not tanging but maybe there some relationship. OMTCW


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Pots and pans "back in the day" tended to be larger than now, so it may even be that it USED to work with big pots and it MAY not work with small ones... It has always seemed kind of irrelevant to me as I'm always busy getting my stuff together to catch a swarm instead of running to get pots and pans...


Big pots back in the day as you say were CAST IRON. Weren't no body carrying them around banging on them.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Cedar Hill said:


> After many years of hauling my hives during pollination work, I noticed at the end of t he trips, that the gentle vibrations caused by the truck's motor running would keep the bees in their screened hives while we were unloading them. Whenever the motor was turned off while unloading, the bees would then be much more active in leaving their hives and stinging. Bees definitely can be controlled by using vibrations. Granted, it's not tanging but maybe there some relationship. OMTCW


Sure it wasn't the exhaust fumes making them reticent to come out?


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## tank (Jun 20, 2013)

The oldtimer i know that used to do it said the bees thought it was thunder and landed asap and formed a cluster. He said he has done it many times he would see a swarm going across a field and honk a horn or bang on something and they would stop and ball up


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The oldtimer i know that used to do it said the bees thought it was thunder and landed asap and formed a cluster. He said he has done it many times he would see a swarm going across a field and honk a horn or bang on something and they would stop and ball up 

I agree, IF it works, it's probably because they think it's thunder. So if I were setting up an experiment I would try to make a sound like thunder as one of my tests.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> So if I were setting up an experiment I would try to make a sound like thunder as one of my tests.


That shouldn't be hard. Ringtone on a cell phone.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Ringtone on a cell phone.

You have a subwoofer on your phone?


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> You have a subwoofer on your phone?


^^This. Guys, I'm _highly_ skeptical that any animal, let alone a colony of bees, is going to mistake just any old loud sound for thunder. Thunder is a very special sound with some peculiar qualities to it. Even a direct recording of thunder actually sounds only a little like real thunder. We're talking serious bass with the atmosphere as your resonance chamber.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Thunder frequency spectrum -- Loudest element is infrasound (below the threshold of human hearing).


Just for chips and giggles -- here's a Maker page on homebuilding a infrasound woofer.


Frequency chart annotated from Arizona online course on Lightning

Elephants are celebrated producers of infrasound (for herd communication). Hence, perhaps a keeper of a backyard elephant (Florida Circus acrobats?) could be encouraged to test the phenomenon on Citrus hives.

Or perhaps you could just borrow a LRAD (Long Range Acoustic Device) from your local US Naval storehouse. Shipboard Infrasound weapon


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## matthewstiles (Jun 4, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Sergey, as you aught to know, perceived cause and effect is not always correct.


:thumbsup: Correlation does not imply causation


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Someone would need to perform allot of tests to know if it works or not, first you would need to know what percent of swarms land close to the hive. Anyone? My guess is most.

Maybe it could be done in a lab, if one could generate the noise or sound that a swarm makes before it launches. You might be able to artificially launch them over and over. Then test sound on them. You might even find sounds to attract or repel them.

I have tried tanging twice and both times they landed close, what else was I going to do while I waited for them to land.


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## matthewstiles (Jun 4, 2013)

Capricorn said:


> it has been noted in beekeeping literature in recent years that a frequency of 600 hertz from a vibrator or loudspeaker placed 60 to 120 centimetres from a hive causes bees to 'freeze' on the honeycomb; the beekeeper himself, however, finds this sound extremely hard to bear." He doesn't make any citations on this info, though he does in other areas of the book.


600hz Now who has a loud speaker to give it a go?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Nearest thing I've heard to thunder is shaking and striking a large piece of sheet metal. Yes, you feel thunder as well as hearing it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >Ringtone on a cell phone.
> 
> You have a subwoofer on your phone?


http://www.zedge.net/ringtone/1330556/thunder/


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## College Beekeeper (Jan 26, 2011)

All honey bee swarms settle. They fly as a swarm out of the parental hive, they settle into a bivouac, and then they go through the process of deciding where to live next (check out Tom Seeley's book- Honeybee Democracy, if you're interested in how they make that big decision!). After they've decided where to live, they fly as a swarm to their new home. 

Now, if you were to come across a swarm of bees in the air, they might be on their first flight (in which case they'll settle no matter what you do) or their second flight (in which case they're heading to their new home, and will not settle). 

Tanging might appear to work, because sometimes you see the bees on that first flight. You start tanging, and hey, the bees do settle. But they would have settled anyways. Correlation is not causation. 

The whole tradition of tanging doesn't say anything about what specific pots or pans or whatnot needs to be used. They just say go bang on some metal, and the swarming bees will settle. So yes, we did not test every single sound in the world. But if tanging did work, it should have worked when we did it. The sound we produced is pretty darn loud- 82 dB at 10m away. There's a youtube video if you're interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5oysb9xdxs)


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## grumpybeeman (Jan 10, 2014)

Since when do living organisms not respond to sound?

"^^This. Guys, I'm highly skeptical that any animal, let alone a colony of bees, is going to mistake just any old loud sound for thunder. Thunder is a very special sound with some peculiar qualities to it. Even a direct recording of thunder actually sounds only a little like real thunder. We're talking serious bass with the atmosphere as your resonance chamber."


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## tank (Jun 20, 2013)

When i saw it work which was only one time the swarm was settled to high to get at so he waited till they took flight and started banging and they dropped in the middle of a pasture and balled Im not saying that is what always happens just my observations for all i know the queen mite have been tired and needed a brake but i think its one of those things that have to be just Right 
My oldtimer carried a washtub and a stick during the spring


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