# Overwintering in one deep



## Marc (May 20, 2005)

I have five hives that were started in July and that are filling one deep each. Each has enough stores and good sized populations, in addition to young queens. I have never wintered in one deep only, but I want to give it a try this year. I am not sure if it is better to push four of the hives together on a pallet so that there is no space between them and build a shared cover. Or if it makes more sense to stack them up on top of each other with two inner covers between them (like Mike Palmer winters his single deeps over an existing colony). In my case I would put an inner cover with an entrance notch and a closed hole on top of the bottom most deep, add a second inner cover with entrance notch upside down and hole closed on top of that as the bottom of the second colony. Than repeat that with all until all five deeps are in one stack, each box separated from the one above and below by two inner covers with entrance notches but sealed of holes. The top-most deep would have an inner cover with entrance notch and insulation above it. Does that make sense? So, what would be the advantages of one over the other? Has anyone tried one version over the other? I am in Indiana, and if some of the locals are right we are looking at a cold winter this time...

Thanks in advance!


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

So personally I have never overwintered in 1 deep. However when I lived in Kansas City area I personally know a commercial beekeeper out there that always wintered in a single deep box. He did NOT have them tight together on a pallet and didnt do anything else out of the norm except maybe a rock or two on top to keep from freezing the bees. He seems to have never had an issue as far as I knew. I asked him once how he manages and his reply was make sure they are plugged out with honey. I believe Indy has a very similar climate as Kansas City.


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## summer1052 (Oct 21, 2007)

I overwinter in one deep only, *BUT* I live in South Texas. Of other concern to me, is that it does not freeze long enough to kill off all the pests. Wintering on 2 deeps would encourage web moths, and SHB.

Remember, this is not a one-size-fits-all endeavor. Find what works in your area, and run with it.

Summer


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## Marc (May 20, 2005)

Well, I guess I will be running with it this winter, for better or for worse...lol though I may be limping come spring. We'll see... for right now I think I will give the stacking method a try and see what happens. If it fails, well, at least I got more drawn frames out of it and a lot more experience. On the other hand, it could work, and yes, Kansas City has somewhat similar weather to us, maybe even a little harsher than here. I'll report back on the results in the spring. Thanks, guys!


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## afss (Mar 19, 2009)

if stacking you may want to alter entrances, exampl one hive exiting south side of stack, next north, or one east one west. Will make it a bit easier for them if/when they fly durring the winter to make it back to their own box i would think.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

From South Central Ky., good luck, I think you will need lots of luck and had better pray for a short and mild winter. I wouldn't try it here. But thats just me.


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

probably should put a candy board on top in case they get hungry later


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

One of my three colonies last winter was Russians, in two 8-frame mediums. They were in a good shape in the Spring. They were in Westchester County NY. 

I would like being able to put some fondant on them, so I wouldn't feel comfortable in stacking them.


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

Marc said:


> ... for right now I think I will give the stacking method a try and see what happens. ... I'll report back on the results in the spring.


Looking forward to your report. I'm thinking you have a decent chance, but as you said, so much depends on what kind of winter we get. Last winter was bad, I'm hoping this winter is better.

Are you going to the State Beekeeper's Fall Conference? Maybe I'll see you there.
http://www.hoosierbuzz.com/


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## honeybeekeeper (Mar 3, 2010)

The very first thing i would be worried about is the bees moving up and running out of stored food and thats because of not having a big enough brood area. Im running 2 deep hive bodies and a medium super full of capped honey on top! My suggestion to you would be to open up the top on a 50+ degree day and inspect the hive sometime during the winter. See where they are clustered and see how much food stores is left. Emergency feeding: 10 lb bag of sugar on top of the inner cover! You just might need to do that hopefully you wont but you never know! Good Luck!!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Marc said:


> I am not sure if it is better to push four of the hives together on a pallet so that there is no space between them and build a shared cover. Or if it makes more sense to stack them up on top of each other with two inner covers between them (like Mike Palmer winters his single deeps over an existing colony).


I think I might winter them in a block instead of a stack if I was in your position. I think you are saying that you don't have other hives to winter them on top of? I winter singles on top of production hives because we have so much snow that the singles would be buried in snow, and would never get a winter cleansing flight if the weather conditions permitted. You don't get so much snow in Indiana, do you?


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## afss (Mar 19, 2009)

valleyman said:


> From South Central Ky., good luck, I think you will need lots of luck and had better pray for a short and mild winter. I wouldn't try it here. But thats just me.


apparently a beek in PEI does all his in singles and i was talking to a comercial guy in northern nova scotia not far from me and he does the same.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

You may find this helpful from a outfit that over winters all singles located in Cut Knife Saskatchewan.



> This is a follow-up to an article on wintering single brood chamber hives, published in the May 1995 issue of the American Bee Journal, and also published in Canadian Beekeeping and the S.B.A. Newsletter. Since its publication, we have received many inquiries seeking more information on the subject. Some of the queries include:


http://www.pedersenapiaries.sasktelwebsite.net/wintering_singles.html

http://www.pedersenapiaries.sasktelwebsite.net/revisited.html


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## Marc (May 20, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> I think I might winter them in a block instead of a stack if I was in your position. I think you are saying that you don't have other hives to winter them on top of?


I have production hives that I could use to stack those single deeps on top. We don't get as much snow as you do in Vermont, at least not in a normal winter and usually not for months at a time. That's why I thought I wouldn't need to put them on top of two deep production hives. The only reason I could see for putting them on top of production hives would be to share some of the heat rising from those hives. That's why I thought stacking them all together might accomplish the same thing. Any thoughts on that thinking, Michael? I very much appreciate your feedback and thoughts.


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## Marc (May 20, 2005)

Delta Bay said:


> You may find this helpful from a outfit that over winters all singles located in Cut Knife Saskatchewan.


Thanks Delta Bay, very interesting link. 

It seems that some beekeepers have successfully wintered single deeps while others warn against it. We'll see how mine are going to do. I did all I could in getting them ready, I will add insulation and wind breaks, but than leave them to fend for themselves. We usually have a day or two of moderately mild weather sometime in January or February, and usually a 60 plus degree day in March. I'll use those days to check on them and to have some extra feed ready in case they need it.


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## BeeTeach (Nov 10, 2005)

I overwintered 10 nucs in 5 frame Bee Max boxes last winter (a rough one) in SW PA. They were set about 6 feet apart simply on bricks on the ground. I made shims and put dry sugar on them. Some used the sugar, some didn't. Transferred them to single deeps in April. I didn't have time to make up any late Summer nucs this year. Wish I had. I have used Styrofoam (blue) boards on my single and double deeps. I use a propane torch to melt a canal of sorts from the area in the center to the outside providing an entrance/exit out of the inner cover opening and some ventilation. Your touch with the torch has to be very light.


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

If you have long hard winters you will want to leave the second brood box on for their store. In Texas we only need one brood box.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

How big is the cluster? A big booming colony can eat a double deep and end up starving, yet Mike Palmer's 4 frame nucs successfully overwinter.


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## Marc (May 20, 2005)

Yesterday I finally had a chance to look into all my hives. I must say they are stronger than I have ever seen them coming out of winter. The massive feeding we had to do last fall paid off. Now some are still so full of capped stores it might impede the queen from laying...always something. 

In any case, the single deeps that I tried to overwinter are all strong and thriving. I didn't loose a single on. Thank you all for chiming in last fall on how you would go about it. I basically pushed them all together on a pallet and provided a windbreak for them. They are doing really well, a lot of brood and still plenty of stores left over. Together with fresh pollen coming in I am hoping we are looking at a really good year this year.

Also, I overwintered two nucs in a split deep hive like Mike Palmer does. I checked on them as well and I couldn't believe how strong they are. They are basically ready to be moved to ten frame deeps...in the middle of March!! I am really encouraged and will overwinter more nucs this year. I tried to not overthink this, just followed the advice from Mike Palmer and others in when to feed, how much feed and leave the rest toMother Nature. Awesome results. Thanks again everyone for your feedback last year.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks for giving us a follow-up. I had a lot of success overwintering nucs per Palmer's directions. Think if he had just kept his success to himself and not shared with the rest of us? Thanks to Mr. Palmer and all the others sharing valuable information!!!:thumbsup:


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

I overwintered 4 nucs from Fall-started queens. Two were 10-framers in double-stacked 5-frame medium boxes, and did the best (biggest population now). One was 8 frames in a medium super, and the queen has filled 6 of the frames with brood. One was a Kenya-nuc where the top was the size of a 5-frame nuc, so probably about 3/4 the size of a 5-frame medium nuc. All are doing fantastic and packing on the pollen. I'm putting on supers for them now to expand their laying. Oh... and I fed as long as it was warm (about mid November) and didn't put any candy or sugar on after that. Also, they're no-treatment Russian-mutts, so they didn't eat everything they had in the first month.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Marc said:


> The massive feeding we had to do last fall paid off. Now some are still so full of capped stores it might impede the queen from laying


There's the key: Pound them full of feed. Mine are wintered indoors as singles, but they don't get feed or fly for 5 and a half months and massive feeding is the key.

It's easier to pull a couple of frames in spring to give the queen room than to clean up a starved hive.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

pine_ridge_farms said:


> Thanks for giving us a follow-up. I had a lot of success overwintering nucs per Palmer's directions. Think if he had just kept his success to himself and not shared with the rest of us? Thanks to Mr. Palmer and all the others sharing valuable information!!!:thumbsup:


And Thank you. Thank you for trying a management scheme that seems a bit far fetched until you actually do it. Easy, isn't it. You set it up and the bees do the work. Nice having your own bees. Nice not having to buy packages, eh? Can anything in beekeeping be more fun than raising your own?

So thanks for trying something new. I applaud your success. Well done!

Now I have something to ask of you. Carry the enthusiasm you have and the success you have found to the rest of the members of your local and state associations. There's no reason why all beekeepers can't raise and winter a few nucs for their own use. There's no reason why beginners can't be provided with good healthy nucleus colonies in the spring, and not be stuck on the package treadmill.

Again, thanks and well done.
Mike


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## Marc (May 20, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Carry the enthusiasm you have and the success you have found to the rest of the members of your local and state associations. There's no reason why all beekeepers can't raise and winter a few nucs for their own use. There's no reason why beginners can't be provided with good healthy nucleus colonies in the spring, and not be stuck on the package treadmill.


I did just that this weekend. Since I didn't need my own overwintered nucs I was able to sell them to a new beekeeper. She was thrilled to get her nucs in March instead of May. By chance she stopped by last weekend when I made more nuc boxes based on D_Coates' design (thank you D_Coates, they were really easy to make). She was every interested and I had a chance to explain the whole overwintering process to her. I am sure she will eventually look into creating her own nucs as well, I was that convincing and excited!!! lol So far I have talked two others into trying it this year.

Mike, thanks a million man for sharing your method with all of us. I am looking forward to meeting you one day and thanking you in person.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> Now I have something to ask of you. Carry the enthusiasm you have and the success you have found to the rest of the members of your local and state associations.
> 
> There's no reason why all beekeepers can't raise and winter a few nucs for their own use. There's no reason why beginners can't be provided with good healthy nucleus colonies in the spring, and not be stuck on the package treadmill.


And there is no reason this second part can't be done as well. I encourage you to try it. It will take several years to build momentum. There will be some real bumps in the road, setbacks along with the victories- a LOT of hand holding (as MP has done so graciously for many of us).. compromises using Spring made nucs with commercial queens in nucs as a start, and as back up plan B,C and sometimes D, but eventually and with reasonable expectations, folks will start to understand overwintered nucs. You will see a change of practices and a change in expectations in what club members want start to occur and take off. Build it and they will come.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I agree with Mr. Palmer. I have enjoyed making my own bees even more so than making honey. I overwintered 4 nucs and have been very impressed with them this spring.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

I see many people saying that they are using Mike Palmer's method of overwintering in singles but where would this information be found? Was there an article or book that he may have wrote? Does Mike Palmer or Kirk Webster have any books published?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

http://kirkwebster.com/


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

It's not really a "Mike Palmer" method as in he didn't invent it.
Over wintering in singles and over wintering nucs is a common practice all over the world as far as I'm aware.

we have over wintered nucs for over 40 years even our queen mating nucs that have only 4 small frames are over wintered.
Like someone said before the key is to winter them heavy.

Over wintering in a single box means you dont get mice problems, you dont get starvation if there's still honey in the frames and you dont get critters setting up camp in the empty bottom box on a double deep.



frazz


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

For what it worth now after winter is over. I'm just south of you I have over wintered in one deep with out any problem.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

frazzledfozzle said:


> It's not really a "Mike Palmer" method as in he didn't invent it.
> frazz


I agree, as I'm only the messenger. Wintering nucleus colonies is something new to most beekeepers in North America, probably because of the abundance of packaged bees and queens over the decades. As the package bee industry struggles to restore the quality of their product, beekeepers raising their own replacement bees are beginning to fill in the gaps. As more beekeepers figure out how to grow their own bees in their own apiaries, the industry can only benefit. That's the most important thing, not what tag someone hangs on the method.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

Hi Mike, is there a list of your articles you have written that I could find online? I have enjoyed the works you have written so far. Thanks!


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Allen Martens said:


> There's the key: Pound them full of feed.
> It's easier to pull a couple of frames in spring to give the queen room than to clean up a starved hive.


I totally understand this logic, however it doesn't seem to be working for me. I've been giving my nucs about a gallon per week, they're taking it and there's not much that they're putting in the frames. The queens are laying up a storm and just looking last night they've only put some in the corners of the frames. There's about 6 deep frames drawn in a 10 frame deep. How / when do they start stockpiling in in the frames and is there something I'm doing wrong? I've been using 1-1 w/ HBH. I've been seeing them 2x per week to fill their feeders up. Last time I was there they hadn't even taken all of it. Should I not be using HBH? (I had some sugar go bad earlier w/o HBH)


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

You have another 2 months for them to put up stores. They are starting to raise the winter bees now, so the laying is good. They will slow down pretty soon and then you can pound the feed to them...


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

I have wintered hives in one deep, fed 2-1 as long as I could in an empty super on top. November 1st in my area is about as late as I will feed 2-1, because of the moisture. After that I remove the empty and feed a patty that is made up using dry sugar, soy flour, brewer's yeast, and my honey. I have adapted and built inner covers that have a rim to give the patty room to set on the frames. Do not put this deep side down untill the bees have quit drawing comb. I use two inches of foam insulation on top of the inner cover. Honey will cause the patty to stay soft and the bees will eat it all winter. I place it on wax paper directly on top of the frames and the brood. We will have temps in winter that will drop in the low teens but we will also have a day or two out of ten that will get above 50 degrees. I will go in these hives to check the patty anytime the temps are above 50 and the wind is not blowing. I have included pics of the cover and a hive wintered in a single that was taken in early Jan. Good luck. Ventilation is the key to wintering bees, especially bees that are being fed as they will generate more heat. The heat is what keeps them alive and it is also what kills them without ventilation.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/dave_sc/nucs/100_1504.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/dave_sc/nucs/100_1506.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/dave_sc/nucs/100_1528.jpg


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I probably would push them together . stacking would not be good as if you get the usual winter break you need to do a quick inspection for food. getting enough honey into them is the biggest concern. good luck


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