# Vsh and mite treatments



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Wesf757 said:


> I believe i read somewhere that if i do treat my vsh bees, that they will develop less hygienic traits against mites than if i don't treat.


nope, a TF myth..



Wesf757 said:


> But being in my 5th year i know the ones that aren't treated have a tendency to abscond.


nope, they die Anatomy of a mite crash.

A true abscond they leave brood behind, and its super rair in full-sized EHB hives.. open the hive and there are a bunch of newly emerged nurse bees stumbling around wondering were everybody went er is a true abscond in a mini that wasn't happy



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=314877123711085



with mites the hive crashes, most of the bees fly off and die some were else and aren't seen.... (rember a normal mid summer hive is seeing 1500 or so bees a day dieing that are never seen...)

then once they dwindle, there is uncontested robbing..
once they honey is gone *poof* no more (robber) bees, the hive entrance goes from busy to nothing in a day or so , and "the bees must have absconded"
here is a (mite induced) crash...and since the queen "left", an abscond.. but you can see it just a handfull of bees left


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

VSH is a genetic trait, only maintained if there is mite pressure for it to be useful against. So in that sense, VSH traits can be lost if bees are treated over several generations. I think that if you treated mites then over the course of years, the VSH trait would gradually disappear.

But like MSL says, those missing hives were probably killed by mites. VSH may help keep hives alive, but it isn't magic. And, daughter queens can mate with any random drone and the VSH trait can be lost through dilution. So even if you buy pure VSH queens, mated with VSH drones, the next generation can easily not show VSH if daughter queens mate randomly.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Wesf757 said:


> So I've got a yard of 20 colonies that are all vsh queens. Mostly pol lines to be specific.


Are these true Pol-line queens or hybrids? In my area, the Pol-line queens come with packages and have no mite resistance whatsoever. At least according to those who buy those packages year after year. Don't have any personal experience with Pol-line queens myself.

Plus, everything that msl and AR1 said above


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

20 VSH hives, yet you say your not TF? Please do not make an all or nothing decision before you even count mites.


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

Marcin said:


> Are these true Pol-line queens or hybrids?


Yea, most of my queens were from reputable breeders, they're all from vp or harbo stock supposedly.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I have gotten a significant number of vsh queens over the past 5 or 6 years. My main purpose was to add a bit of those genetics to my yards. Having said that, the vsh trait comes with some caveats.

The biggest issue, in my opinion, is that by the time that trait comes into play the developing bee is already pupating. At that point the colony has invested all of the energy and resources necessary to produce an adult bee. And then it is discarded. Even in moderate numbers this is destructive to the colony.

Treating does not erase the genetic trait. It is diluted through successive generations of queens. It is not a naturally dominant trait.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

So what is the probability of survival at your place without treatments?
For example over the last 3 years?

You should provide some kind of numerical data (running ~20 colonies over last few years - there have to be some numbers).
Without even basic numbers (e.g. X hives died out of Y total) - how can people even begin suggesting to you anything?

For example, if I knew that reliably I can get 75% of colonies to be surviving without chems, that would be a fine situation for me to just stay off the chems.

If you don't provide data, don't expect good answers.
It will be just opinions all over, probably irrelevant to you.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

For example - here is a last winter layout of our local queen breeder & seller (Queen Bees | Lloyd Street Bees | Wisconsin (lloydstbees.com) ).
Here we can look at the real numbers - they are very good numbers for WI.
If you can not really post any numeric information (especially the historic stats info), it is difficult and near meaningless to discuss the matter.



> Out of the total population of colonies that went into winter, *70% went into the winter without receiving any treatments during the season.* Of the total population of colonies going into winter, 85% survived.* To break it down further, 91% of the treated colonies survived winter and 81% of the untreated colonies survived winter. *


This kind of an approach needs to be used.
So when you state:


> But being in my 5th year i know the ones that aren't treated have a tendency to abscond.


What is the percentage over the 5 years that "absconded" (or rather simply died)?
Is it 15% (so what)?
Is it 50% (ok, this is more serious)?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Marcin said:


> the Pol-line queens come with packages and have no mite resistance whatsoever.


who is doing pol-line packages?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Mite resistant bees treated lose their resistance? could it be like mites feeding on bee haemolymph. Sorta like an urban legend, anyone seen any research on that story.


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

GregB said:


> This kind of an approach needs to be used.
> So when you state:
> 
> What is the percentage over the 5 years that "absconded" (or rather simply died)?
> ...


So the first year i lost 50%, 2nd year we dropped it down quite a bit that's when i started treating and testing for mites. Only lost 2 colonies that year, the year after, i started using the vsh queens and did notice a few of them maintained low mites throughout the year and a few did not. Assumed hey they're vsh i don't have to treat them and that failed misserably. Although i did have 2 that made it without treatments. All my other run of the mill Georgia italians got apivar in late summer and 4 rounds of oxalic in october. Never more than 10% loss.

But these 2 vsh queens really intrigued me so i started switching over. Last year i lost 35% of those vsh queens. So i know more than half of them are strong enough to make it through winter. But the rest are not, so knowing they are maybe slightly resistant but not enough I'll treat but with only oxalic maybe and leave out the amitraz 

So to answer your question id say we probably average 10% losses of treated colonies with untreated colonies averaging close to 40% losses. 

Which brings up my question of can i go ahead and treat everyone, and not diminish the good vsh traits of the ones that would make it without treatments. 

It would be great to say I'm not treating any of my vsh this year, but i know if i did that it could result in a 40% loss and i can't let that happen.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Wesf757 said:


> So to answer your question id say we probably average 10% losses of treated colonies with untreated colonies averaging close to 40% losses.
> 
> Which brings up my question of can i go ahead and treat everyone, and not diminish the good vsh traits of the ones that would make it without treatments.
> 
> It would be great to say I'm not treating any of my vsh this year, but i know if i did that it could result in a 40% loss and i can't let that happen.


It does not matter if you loose the trait or not.
See that?

What is the point of loosing/not loosing the trait discussion IF you have the main decision already made up - *40% loss and i can't let that happen.*

You got my permission - LOL. Go for it!


> .........can i go ahead and treat everyone,.........


Your true decision is NOT about loosing the trait.
Your true decision is to be preventing 40% loss.
Then go for it and prevent the loss.

Otherwise this becomes akin to "eating your cake AND having it too at once".


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

GregB said:


> It does not matter if you loose the trait or not.
> See that?
> 
> What is the point of loosing/not loosing the trait discussion IF you have the main decision already made up - *40% loss and i can't let that happen.*
> ...


Touche, guess i want to transition more into might resistant bees but maintain my stock that aren't and i guess I'll just be spinning my wheels in that case.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Wesf757 said:


> Touche, guess i want to transition more into might resistant bees but maintain my stock that aren't and i guess I'll just be spinning my wheels in that case.


As I already published my 5 year treatment-free trial - I got 13% survival (including a total wipeout once over this 5 year run).

So, what is the point of me wintering *one VSH colony* (barely alive) IF I can not do anything useful with this single colony?
Sure - it is very mite resistant - tested and confirmed.
But with poor survival like this I must treat just so I have more bees on hand to do anything useful with them.

Here is a better project - in highly mite infested area you can get away with only 1-2 oxalic treatments using the VSH stock (whereas the commercial stock gets hammered and killed IF only 1-2 treatments are done).
So you see - the resistance selection is still possible and is useful and makes practical sense.
This is *not *a binary choice, but rather a sliding scale with the goal of minimized treatments.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Wesf757 said:


> I'm really just looking for some insight from people that may know what treating vsh genetic colonies does to the overall hygienic traits they already have and if it diminishes them.


Wes:

Good post- I am unaware of any research that has looked at this particular question. That said, considering your situation and the good responses you have already received, I would offer three thoughts:

1. Dr. Rothenbuhler deadpanned that in order to select for resistance one must have the disease. While simplistic, it underscores the point that if you want a trait to be expressed you must have pressure applied.

2. Related to (1), I'd go along with Greg's suggestion that it does not necessarily have to be an 'all or nothing' proposition. Adopt a consistent protocol and treat all colonies that rise above the threshold. In this way you can simultaneously maintain high survival in your apiary and select for resistance.

3. If I were evaluating VSH queens for purchase, I would ask them to produce their Harbo assay results. If they are not testing their breeders according to this protocol, one cannot confirm that they are in-fact VSH:






harbobeeco - VSH







www.harbobeeco.com


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

msl said:


> who is doing pol-line packages?


I don't know where the packages originate from, but there's 2 distributors locally in northeast Illinois that sell Pol-line packages.


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> 3. If I were evaluating VSH queens for purchase, I would ask them to produce their Harbo assay results. If they are not testing their breeders according to this protocol, one cannot confirm that they are in-fact VSH:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I haven't sat down and done a plethora of assays on my colonies, but i have done a few on a small scale on some of my better colonies and have yet to find a mite. 

I would assume that any queens that come from adam at vp are good to go though no? now the question of whether these f1 breeders i've purchaced mated queens from have saturated the area with vsh drones properly could be of concern maybe. I'll follow up on the assay results and see if they can even provide that info for me.


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Here is a better project - in highly mite infested area you can get away with only 1-2 oxalic treatments using the VSH stock (whereas the commercial stock gets hammered and killed IF only 1-2 treatments are done).
> So you see - the resistance selection is still possible and is useful and makes practical sense.
> This is *not *a binary choice, but rather a sliding scale with the goal of minimized treatments.


I do like the idea of minimal treatments, if i could keep it to only oa treatments that would be great, i'll be giving the randy oliver extended release oxalic pads a try this year. A good friend of mine local did that this year with commercial stock and had 100% survival. 

thanks so much greg this has been a great conversation and i value your knowledge greatly, huge help! anymore input let me have it im still new and learning this vsh stuff!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Wesf757 said:


> ... i have done a few on a small scale on some of my better colonies and have yet to find a mite.


@Wesf757:

What sort of assays have you conducted?


Wesf757 said:


> I'll follow up on the assay results and see if they can even provide that info for me.


VSH is by definition a queen that has scored a 3 or 4 on a Harbo assay. So they should be able to provide the results of the breeder mother of the queen(s) you purchase.


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> @Wesf757:
> 
> What sort of assays have you conducted?
> 
> VSH is by definition a queen that has scored a 3 or 4 on a Harbo assay. So they should be able to provide the results of the breeder mother of the queen(s) you purchase.


Drone and worker brood assays, but i've not been pulling full frames of brood for them, just 30-50 samples per colony. not a very accurate test but half a test is better than no test i reckon.. i do recognize some uncapping behavior and still havn't seen mites in and around those brood cells either.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Wesf757 said:


> not a very accurate test but half a test is better than no test i reckon


Sounds pretty good to me- you're over halfway to a VSH score by opening up 50 cells (see attached). If you were inclined, you could set-up a standard test protocol and;

1. Breed from the group that falls below the threshold.

2. Treat / re-queen those above the threshold.


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> 1. Breed from the group that falls below the threshold.
> 
> 2. Treat / re-queen those above the threshold.


Yep i'm grafting this week from my highest scoring queen, the one that i've gotten through 2 winters with only 1 oa treatment. hopefully i'll get half of them mated, getting pretty cut throat this time of year in my area.

The daughters i have from her already i've not done assays on as they're only just building up out of nucs now and dont want to rob any brood from them. but i'll be testing them closer to fall. hopefully next year i'll be in a much better place to select from a broader population of good scoring queens.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Wesf757 said:


> Drone and worker brood assays, but i've not been pulling full frames of brood for them, just 30-50 samples per colony. not a very accurate test but half a test is better than no test i reckon.. i do recognize some uncapping behavior and still havn't seen mites in and around those brood cells either.


So what is the threshold of mites in drone brood that would be considered a fail? Sorry Litsinger but I cannot open the attachements the pages come up blank.

I am hoping to get to minimal treatments and no miticide. I have two hives, they were treated last August with Apivar and then the beginning Oct. with OAD, no treatments after that. A few days ago I was working the hives and there was drone comb at the bottom of a couple of frames in each. I just broke it off and then thought I might as well check for mites. I sat on my deck with a cup of tea and had a lovely slow afternoon counting mites in the larvae and pupae. I ended up with 3/300 in one hive and 0/300 in the other. 

I have been looking for some info on the counts and if mites in drone comb is an accurate method, as always happens in beekeeping, some say yes and some say no.

I just am in the process of broodless splits and will OAD the broodless hives in a few days. I haven't done a mite wash yet, I was hoping the drone count would be just as good.


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> I ended up with 3/300 in one hive and 0/300 in the other.


If you went through 300 brood and only found 3 i believe that's a 4. Atleast a 3 on the vsh test scale. The 0/300 is definitely a 4. Which is superb. You could do an oa just because but i don't even think i would. 

Bear in mind I'm not qualified for this kind of recommendation so you may want to wait for one of these guys responses they know far more than i do. But assays are way more effective of a test than mite washes. If i recall phoretic mites only count for 30% of mite count. I may be wrong.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Wesf757 said:


> ... getting pretty cut throat this time of year in my area.


Same here- drones continue to become fewer and farther between. 

Looks like you've got some good stock as a basis for our breeding efforts and a good plan. I'll look forward to your updates.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> Sorry Litsinger but I cannot open the attachements the pages come up blank.


Sorry to read that you are having trouble with the PDF's. You can go to John Harbo's page and download them directly- see if that helps:






harbobeeco - VSH







www.harbobeeco.com







ursa_minor said:


> I have been looking for some info on the counts and if mites in drone comb is an accurate method, as always happens in beekeeping, some say yes and some say no.


There is a good older thread on here that @shinbone started that explores this question in a lot of detail- you might appreciate the studies / discussion:









Mite count in drone brood as a diagnostic?


Rather than doing an alcohol wash or sugar roll of adult bees from the brood nest, etc., what about counting mites in drone brood to determine mite infestation levels? I'd rather pull 10 or 20 drone larva/pupa than assembly the equipment for an alcohol wash or sugar roll. Capped drone brood...




www.beesource.com





Your drone counts sound really encouraging- I'll look forward to reading about your progress.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Wesf757 said:


> If i recall phoretic mites only count for 30% of mite count. I may be wrong.


30% is a crude average. Depends on where in the brooding cycle the hive is. In the middle of a long dearth, when brood is minimal, all or most mites will be phoretic. In mid-spring when brooding is heavy, nearly all may be in capped brood.

Drone brood assays are all I have done the last two years. Not in any way scientifically, just cutting out a strip of drone brood and looking inside. This year have yet to find a mite anywhere. That may be due to the shop towels I placed last fall and again this spring.


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

AR1 said:


> That may be due to the shop towels I placed last fall and again this spring.


Hoping they help me this year, first time trying that treatment. Going with the sponges though.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Wesf757 said:


> Hoping they help me this year, first time trying that treatment. Going with the sponges though.


I went with R Oliver's recipe. Easy to make, but use your old, cheap pan!


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> Your drone counts sound really encouraging- I'll look forward to reading about your progress.


Thanks for the links, I bookmarked the site and will read it during my afternoon break. It now is my confidence that needs bucking up LOL, if I can reliably count on the drone results, or mite wash, I am tempted to try one hive TF this fall, or at least drop the Apivar and do only OAD. Baby steps, baby steps. 

One bonus is that my nearest beekeeper, who loses hives every winter to mites, has given up.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> I am tempted to try one hive TF this fall, or at least drop the Apivar and do only OAD.


Sounds like a reasonable approach to me. I will definitely look forward to reading about your progress!


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

Welp 1 "vsh" queen isn't quite there. 1 oa treatment and I got a huge drop from this one, she won't make the cut...


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Wesf757 said:


> Welp 1 "vsh" queen isn't quite there.


Sorry to read this- two things come to mind:

1. As has already been discussed, just because something is advertised as 'VSH' it unfortunately does not necessarily mean the queen is the direct progeny of a queen with a 3 or 4 Harbo score.

2. If you haven't already, the talk below by Dr. Stephen Martin is well worth the investment. Near the end he outlines discussions he had with Dr. Spivak and their combined observations that VSH colonies in a high mite load environment can fail due to an external mite pressure that causes them to uncap too much brood and fail to effectively turn-over:









‎Two Bees in a Podcast: Episode 35: Natural Varroa-Resistant Honey Bees and Small Hive Beetles on Apple Podcasts


‎Show Two Bees in a Podcast, Ep Episode 35: Natural Varroa-Resistant Honey Bees and Small Hive Beetles - Oct 8, 2020



podcasts.apple.com


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

Great podcast had never listened to them, so of course i listened to most haha. Very informative episode you recommended


Litsinger said:


> Sorry to read this- two things come to mind:
> 
> 1. As has already been discussed, just because something is advertised as 'VSH' it unfortunately does not necessarily mean the queen is the direct progeny of a queen with a 3 or 4 Harbo score.
> 
> ...


Great podcast had never listened to them, so of course i listened to most haha. Very informative episode you recommended.

Just an update for you of the 20 vsh colonies I've got, 13 had high mite counts, some drone brood had 2 mites per cell...super discouraging. 3 hives did come in with a low mite count, 2 mites in 2 washes, and 1 mite in another wash. Only 1 mite found in each of the 50 brood i checked though. And then 4 colonies had zeros across the board. And i did 100 brood as opposed to 50 in these 4. One being the 3 year old queen I've got that's been basically mite free on her own since 2019.

Side note though, i did recognize some uncapping behavior on a couple of the bad colonies, but in 2 of the zero colonies there were no uncapped pupae. Maybe they recapping i don't know. Either way I'm encouraged by what's come of them so far. Minus the lucky 13 colonies that will get requeened next year.

They're definitely less productive than my normal Italian and carni queens, but i would absolutely take the reduction if it meant lower mites across the board year round.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Wesf757 said:


> They're definitely less productive than my normal Italian and carni queens, but i would absolutely take the reduction if it meant lower mites across the board year round.


IMO we are not at that choice.
keep trying different VSH stock or crosses with your bees and the VSH stock.

GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Wesf757 said:


> And then 4 colonies had zeros across the board.


Nice! As Randy Oliver quips, 'zeroes are heroes'. And assuming this is VSH activity, you could expect that daughters off of these queens will show intermediate resistance, even in if the drone pool around you is largely non-resistant.

Are these queens stock that is suitable to your needs in addition to their mite performance?

Regardless, it sounds to me as of you've got something to make a good start with.

You could check for uncapping/recapping with waxing strips- planning on checking a few of mine the first of August.

p.s. Glad you enjoyed the podcast. The ones with Derek Mitchell and Jeff Harris are definitely worth listening to in my book.


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> You could check for uncapping/recapping with waxing strips- planning on checking a few of mine the first of August.


Waxing strips? Haven't heard of this tell me more I'll gladly do some testing!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Wesf757 said:


> Waxing strips? Haven't heard of this tell me more I'll gladly do some testing!


You can read all about it here- if you read part 2 of Randy's recent resistance breeding series (also in this thread), you can see what you're looking for:



Litsinger said:


> Regarding this assay I was recently in an e-mail exchange with Dr. Büchler and I asked him about the specific product they employ for uncapping/recapping assays. He indicated that after trying several options, they settled on the Isana brand depilatory strips as the best solution.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Wesf757 said:


> They're definitely less productive than my normal Italian and carni queens, but i would absolutely take the reduction if it meant lower mites across the board year round.


Define "less productive".
Depending on a situation, it could be even negative productivity (as they could be all consumed by the VSH activity and not much else if the mite pressure is high).
Mite reduction comes at cost (even prohibitively high cost).


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

Litsinger said:


> Are these queens stock that is suitable to your needs in addition to their mite performance?


They did just fine,


GregB said:


> Define "less productive".
> Depending on a situation, it could be even negative productivity (as they could be all consumed by the VSH activity and not much else if the mite pressure is high).
> Mite reduction comes at cost (even prohibitively high cost).


Just slower to build up and less honey, not bad by any means just less of everything all around in comparison to my other "normal" colonies. Certainly not negative productivity yet.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Wesf757 said:


> Just slower to build up and less honey, not bad by any means just less of everything all around in comparison to my other "normal" colonies. Certainly not negative productivity yet.


Good for you.
At my high mite-pressure location the VSH (from my experience) have shown rather negative productivity.
They had to be fed just to stay afloat (see pic of a typical pattern/colony status of the VSH line).
Once started on org. acid minimal treatment - things improved by a lot (as expected really - the efforts towards mite control were reduced).


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

GregB said:


> Good for you.
> At my high mite-pressure location the VSH (from my experience) have shown rather negative productivity.


I would hope that in a lower-mite area this pattern would look a lot better. Was there any sign that they ever cleared the mite problem and started producing better patterns, or did it definitely require the treatment?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AR1 said:


> I would hope that in a lower-mite area this pattern would look a lot better. Was there any sign that they ever cleared the mite problem and started producing better patterns, or did it definitely require the treatment?


Definitely treatment.

If you remember, F1 daughters of the VSH matriarch consistently die here - I have done that.
The good VSH matriarch barely survives without treatments.

Combination of VSH and proper/minimal treatment seems to be the best mode of operation for my place.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

AR1 said:


> I would hope that in a lower-mite area this pattern would look a lot better.


My wife is fond of telling me 'hope is not a plan'. If they do better in an area with lower infestation, then I would posit that folks are mistaking the effects of environment for 'resistance'.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

grozzie2 said:


> My wife is fond of telling me 'hope is not a plan'. If they do better in an area with lower infestation, then I would posit that folks are *mistaking the effects of environment for 'resistance'.*


I am pretty sure my suburban/transitional ag area is a very good to excellent general environment.
Not a problem.

Here it is about the 1)annual flood of imports and 2)high density of small scale beekeepers (including a high number of first-second year short-term wanna-bees, INCLUDING the TF wanna-bees - I have tried that myself).
Nothing about the environment.
Once the appropriate mite control is in place - the bees here explode and thrive - it is an excellent location (once the mites taken out and the bees are suitable for winter).


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

AR1 said:


> VSH is a genetic trait, only maintained if there is mite pressure for it to be useful against. So in that sense, VSH traits can be lost if bees are treated over several generations. I think that if you treated mites then over the course of years, the VSH trait would gradually disappear.


Howdy folks. A common misconception (no offense AR1) in heredity and evolutionary biology is that there's "purpose" or "progress" in hereditary mechanisms. Traits and the organism's interaction with it's environment (phenotype) are inherited randomly. *Random. *Say it three times fast: "random random random". There's no purpose to how an organism receives it's genetic make-up, just the random chance. When AR1 says:

"_VSH is a genetic trait, only maintained if there is mite pressure for it to be useful against. So in that sense, VSH traits can be lost if bees are treated over several generations"_ it's misleading. All populations of bees have the chance to have genetic makeup that will lead to VSH behavior. It's there. It didn't "appear" or wasn't brought about by mysterious proprietary techniques. It's in the population.

Selecting for the trait, and the underlying genetic code that expresses the trait, is what breeding does. Think of breeding as "unnatural selection". Or "Survival of the fittest, you want". By selecting for queens heading colonies that reduce mite population growth, without any mite treatments, is amplifying VSH expression, genetically. There will be more of a chance that colonies will have VSH if their parents and grandparents had VSH. If you treat this population, the chance of colonies having VSH doesn't diminish, but it's much harder to tell which colonies have the VSH behavior and which do not as the mite treatment removes the environmental condition (mite infestation). As these treated VSH expressing colonies have offspring, the chance that a beekeeper can pick the mite resistant ones out, when the mite levels are lowered by treatment, become more and more difficult. Susceptible colonies will cross with resistant colonies and there will be a genetic "re-mixing" of genotypes expressing anything from VSH to susceptible. Eventually, the VSH trait isn't likely to be expressed in this population. It hasn't disappeared. There is still a chance for it to be selected for and expressed again.

AR1 is saying (I think) that if there's no selection pressure on a population for a given set of traits, those traits become less and less likely to be inherited. It would be cool, once there's some consistent genetic markers available for VSH and other mite resistant behaviors/traits to test for them in VSH populations and non-VSH populations.



AR1 said:


> But like MSL says, those missing hives were probably killed by mites. VSH may help keep hives alive, but it isn't magic. And, daughter queens can mate with any random drone and the VSH trait can be lost through dilution. So even if you buy pure VSH queens, mated with VSH drones, the next generation can easily not show VSH if daughter queens mate randomly.


The VSH traits aren't "lost" they just are not expressed. The potential for them to be expressed needs to be encouraged. Folks that have good success with mite resistance using heredity almost always consistently have isolated mating areas. The more VSH breeding units out there, the more resistant the population will be to varroa mite issues. This reality has been discussed for 15 or more years. People re-invent selecting for mite resistance. The nitty-gritty bottom line is that if you monitor for mite levels and breed from the bees with the lowest yearly mite growth, and mate dauhters from them in areas where there are drones from other queens that also show good mite resistance, you'll have an excellent chance to have hardy, mite resistant bees.

There are so many levels in breeding. Look at any species example. Selections of strains from different species range from 0-100 in terms of productivity and success.

Adam


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Litsinger said:


> @Wesf757:
> 
> What sort of assays have you conducted?
> 
> VSH is by definition a queen that has scored a 3 or 4 on a Harbo assay. So they should be able to provide the results of the breeder mother of the queen(s) you purchase.


That's Harbo's definition.

Adam


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Litsinger said:


> Wes:
> 
> Good post- I am unaware of any research that has looked at this particular question. That said, considering your situation and the good responses you have already received, I would offer three thoughts:
> 
> ...


Careful. Until there are tests that show actual genomic markers for VSH expression, stating that any assay is a definitive test for "VSH Queens" becomes misleading.

Adam


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

adamf said:


> Careful. Until there are tests that show actual genomic markers for VSH expression, stating that any assay is a definitive test for "VSH Queens" becomes misleading.


Adam:

Thank you for your feedback. As I understand it, Dr. Harbo and Dr. Hoopingarner discovered the VSH trait, and Dr. Harbo and Dr. Harris subsequently defined the term and developed the assay. So as I see it, 'Varroa Sensitive Hygiene' is a specific trait measured with a specific assay as outlined below:

Measuring VSH

Scoring

That said, I readily acknowledge there are other mechanisms at work conferring resistance (possibly including other as-not-yet defined hygiene traits) that are important and worth selecting for, but likely should not be defined as 'Varroa Sensitive Hygiene'.

Am I missing the mark anywhere?


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Litsinger said:


> Adam:
> 
> Thank you for your feedback. As I understand it, Dr. Harbo and Dr. Hoopingarner discovered the VSH trait, and Dr. Harbo and Dr. Harris subsequently defined the term and developed the assay. So as I see it, 'Varroa Sensitive Hygiene' is a specific trait measured with a specific assay as outlined below:
> 
> ...


Litsinger,
If you or one is going to breed for mite resistance using assays that facilitate selection for VSH behavior, these assays are what you'd want to use:



Selecting for Varroa Sensitive Hygiene – Bee Health



The folks that published these assays (look at the authors) were involved in using VSH to improve honey bees: they bred for bees that were commercially viable and showed mite resistance.

John Harbo is trying to facilitate good selection for VSH behavior. His hand-outs are helpful and informative. Some of his assumptions about the heredity of VSH are not proven and therefore are not necessarily
"the source" for VSH selection in bee breeding. When genetic markers become available for more of the honey bee genome, the heredity behind specific trait selection (VSH behavior is one) will be clear and selection scenarios
will be revised based on the definitive knowledge of honey bee heredity. 


Adam


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

adamf said:


> If you or one is going to breed for mite resistance using assays that facilitate selection for VSH behavior, these assays are what you'd want to use...


Adam:

Great information. I appreciate you sharing. Based on the write-up, it looks like the Harbo assay (i.e. percentage of nonreproductives) remains the most reliable predictor of VSH:

_'Uncapped pupae are visible without a microscope, but measuring the % uncapped pupae is highly variable and does not always predict VSH behavior. On the other hand, measuring the percentage of infertile mites (those without progeny) predicts strong varroa resistance, but it requires detailed microscopic examinations of brood to measure.

The most reliable method is to select for a high infertility rate in the mite population (Fig. 2). We are not certain how it happens, but somehow VSH increases mite infertility. Generally, 15-25% of mites in non-resistant colonies do not lay eggs. Infertility increases to 80-100% in colonies with pure VSH queens. Mite populations eventually decline in these colonies because so few mites lay eggs.'_

That said, based on the Villa, Danka and Harris document is it reasonable to suggest that one could expect that a VSH breeder would be able to produce the results of their breeder queen stock based on one of the three assays outlined in the write-up?


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

Update and question for all, went through and did might washes this week. Pretty high mites in all colonies in this yard, some higher than others. There are 21 colonies in this yard and 17 are "vsh" or advertised as such. 3 are run of the mill Georgia queens and 1 buckfast. The Georgia queens ran super high 1 had 18, other had 21. Buckfast had 6. Now to the vsh

My 1 rock solid pol line that's going on 4 years old and doesn't get mites, still does not have mites. 2 seperate washes and zeros across the board. Shes pure gold. Most of my "vsh" queens came in at 3-5 mites per wash. Although 1 had 18, another had 22 and another had 40! Couple 6 or 7s in there as well. And 1 other zero which happened to be a daughter from the good queen. 

Now the question i have is of these vsh queens 3 of them are daughters from my good queen, 1 washed zero as i said, but then the 40 wash i got was a daughter as well, and the other had 6. I guess i expected these queens to be rock solid being daughters of my good queen but only 1 is doing what's she's supposed to. How did that work? Daughters of a very vsh queen aren't allways going to carry that gene?

Good news is i do have another pol line that i purchased this year that washed a 1 so she seems to have some potential. Guess time will tell!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Wesf757 said:


> How did that work? Daughters of a very vsh queen aren't allways going to carry that gene?


Aren't you forgetting of the drone side of the equitation?


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Aren't you forgetting of the drone side of the equitation?


Yea perhaps, just never thought the drones could contribute to that BIG of a swing from one direction to another.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Wesf757 said:


> Yea perhaps, just never thought the drones could contribute to that BIG of a swing from one direction to another.


Granted you #1 queen is *already *open-mated (most likely so) - the output variability will be large.
This is assuming the resistance originating from the *female side.*

Not to mention the possibility of the mite resistance coming from the *male side,* not the female side.
Meaning that, really, the resistance could be coming from just *1-2 drones* that mated with the #1 queen - entirely possible.

OR - anything in between.

In your place I'd be making 10's and even 100's of her daughters - this is so to just get few good ones.
Not to mention, I'd be flooding the area with the #1 male clones (i.e. drones) - this is to propagate the female side resistance genetics (still most probable just by the numbers).

Unsure what you've done in this regard up to now, but at this age of 4 years you may have run out of your chances to milk your #1 queen.
You should have milked her dry.
Hopefully you did.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Wesf757 said:


> Yea perhaps, just never thought the drones could contribute to that BIG of a swing from one direction to another.


Ultimately you are trying to change the trajectory of the population- as Tom Glenn describes, VSH is an additive trait that becomes more consistent the more this trait is in the population:


Litsinger said:


> _'Individuals and colonies are temporary, but it's at the level of population that lasting changes can be made. But the population is made up of colonies, and colonies are composed of individuals. It is at the level of individual, the queen and the drones she mates with, that all the work must start at.'_


And on a practical level, the following discussion is well- worth the investment, particularly:



Litsinger said:


> @ 0:16 - 0:18:30 they discuss the Harbo Model of introducing the VSH trait into an existing population and discuss the distinction between traits and stocks.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

I will also add that attempting a change at the population level underscores the importance of good imported traits to facilitate improvement.

In other words, the importation of a bonafide mated VSH queen helps you in three generations of VSH persistence:

1. The queen herself.
2. Her progeny- queens and drones.
3. Her daughter's drones.

If the queen has the VSH trait genetics, it will persist in all three of these groups at a high level before tapering off via unselected outcrossing in subsequent generations.

However, if the original queen is advertised as 'VSH' but has not come from a breeder queen colony who has been tested for VSH and mated with drones from high-performing VSH colonies, one really cannot predict the outcomes, even with the original queen.

Finally, I think it is good to remember that while VSH is a good tool for reducing mite loads, it does not necessarily always comport with lower mite levels overall.

At the end of the day, VSH is a trait defined by the percentage of reproductive mites in a minimum of 100 cells- one cannot measure VSH directly with a mite wash, even though low mite population growth is the target we are aiming for when we select for VSH.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Wesf757 said:


> Yea perhaps, just never thought the drones could contribute to that BIG of a swing from one direction to another.


VSH is a recessive trait. If the drone doesn't have it, doesn't matter what the queen has. A recessive trait must come from both sides of the parentage.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

grozzie2 said:


> VSH is a recessive trait.


The latest understanding of VSH suggests that it is actually caused by a suite of genes that are described as additive (Varroa Sensitive Hygiene VSH Breeder Queens):

_'The VSH trait is thought to be controlled by more than one gene, just how many is uncertain at this point. These genes are neither dominant nor recessive. They are what is called "additive" which simply means that the more of them that are present, the more strongly the trait will be expressed._ _This works in favor of beekeepers since a queen with VSH genes can mate to any drones and still have the trait expressed in her colony enough to reduce the mite population. So naturally mated queens produced from pure VSH breeders are mite resistant.'_



Litsinger said:


> For anyone interested, here is a good interview with Dr. Jeff Harris of Harbo and Harris fame discussing the origins of VSH, the confusion in terminology regarding SMR and his thoughts about the future of VSH:
> 
> Varroa Sensitive Hygiene- Dr. Jeff Harris


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Wesf757 said:


> Update and question for all, went through and did might washes this week. Pretty high mites in all colonies in this yard, some higher than others. There are 21 colonies in this yard and 17 are "vsh" or advertised as such. 3 are run of the mill Georgia queens and 1 buckfast. The Georgia queens ran super high 1 had 18, other had 21. Buckfast had 6. Now to the vsh
> 
> My 1 rock solid pol line that's going on 4 years old and doesn't get mites, still does not have mites. 2 seperate washes and zeros across the board. Shes pure gold. Most of my "vsh" queens came in at 3-5 mites per wash. Although 1 had 18, another had 22 and another had 40! Couple 6 or 7s in there as well. And 1 other zero which happened to be a daughter from the good queen.
> 
> ...


I'm interested if there's any brood damage in the hives with those high mite counts? 
There's a possibility that at least some of the mites in the samples did not originate in your hives, but came through robbing or drifting.


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

Marcin said:


> I'm interested if there's any brood damage in the hives with those high mite counts?
> There's a possibility that at least some of the mites in the samples did not originate in your hives, but came through robbing or drifting.


So the highest mite load colony looked great, lots of brood, quite a few uncapped pupae(bald brood) but I've always attributed that to them being pretty hygienic. Now that they have so many mites in not so sure. But no noticeable diseases in that one. 

The only colony that i did see something in was in one of the 20 mite washes, and that was deformed wing. It was only one bee out of the whole colony that i saw it but it was clearly dwv.

Other than that all other colonies looked great, and have looked great all summer. Minus the bald brood in quite a few if not all of the vsh colonies.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Wesf757 said:


> ... and 1 buckfast. The Georgia queens ran super high 1 had 18, other had 21. Buckfast had 6...


Glad to see the F1 Buckfast was on the low end. Some of mine tested higher than that but the Breeder Bucky was 5 per 300 bees with zero treatments on 8/6/22. Have you tried the Cory Stevens VSH queens? those were by far my lowest on the mite counts, even the F2 daughters. Let me know if you want one of those next spring.


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## Wesf757 (9 mo ago)

ruthiesbees said:


> Glad to see the F1 Buckfast was on the low end. Some of mine tested higher than that but the Breeder Bucky was 5 per 300 bees with zero treatments on 8/6/22. Have you tried the Cory Stevens VSH queens? those were by far my lowest on the mite counts, even the F2 daughters. Let me know if you want one of those next spring.


She's doing great, and yes absolutely id love one. Have a buddy of mine that lives out in Franklin that has an f1 from one of Corey's breeders and she's his best as well.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Wesf757 said:


> She's doing great, and yes absolutely id love one. Have a buddy of mine that lives out in Franklin that has an f1 from one of Corey's breeders and she's his best as well.


If your operation is big enough, Cory sells the F1 virgins directly. I bought 10 this year to get the price break. Ended up with 6 mated (would have had more but had some mating box mix ups). Don't know yet how they are with spring build up and swarming (which is what I dislike about Italians) but they are brooding great right now.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Wesf757 said:


> Update and question for all, went through and did might washes this week. Pretty high mites in all colonies in this yard, some higher than others. There are 21 colonies in this yard and 17 are "vsh" or advertised as such. 3 are run of the mill Georgia queens and 1 buckfast. The Georgia queens ran super high 1 had 18, other had 21. Buckfast had 6. Now to the vsh
> 
> My 1 rock solid pol line that's going on 4 years old and doesn't get mites, still does not have mites. 2 seperate washes and zeros across the board. Shes pure gold. Most of my "vsh" queens came in at 3-5 mites per wash. Although 1 had 18, another had 22 and another had 40! Couple 6 or 7s in there as well. And 1 other zero which happened to be a daughter from the good queen.
> 
> ...



View attachment 70888

The bees' ability to reduce the mite population over time is the definition of Mite Resistance. The most efficient and accurate way to use alchohol washes is to do three or more per colony, per season. A mite resistant colony would have more mites the first or second wash, then less. Sure low mite counts are great, but using data to select for mite resitance from 1 wash test is not as accurate as seeing how the bees handle the mite load over the whole season. I often see a "4 mite" wash in Feb to a "0 mite" in August and it produces daughters with "1 mite" and "2 mite" counts. I'd cull the high count ones you have. Keep an eye on everything between 0 and 8. The higher ones might just have a higher mite load when you tested them.

Adam


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