# Is a inner cover necessary with quilt box



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I plan on having a shim on top of the brood chamber to hold sugar bricks that I can place directly on the top frames instead of a normal candy board this winter , then on top of that the quilt box, is there any extra protection from the cold by putting a inner cover on top of the quilt box . This way I was hoping the sugar bricks can get some of the moisture and the quilt box can handle the rest that gets through , in this set up I could drill a hole in the shim for ventilation .


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

While I do not use a quilt box, I do use insulation foam above the brood chamber (with sugar below the insulation) and have never used an inner cover. I cannot see any advantage in using one above the insulation or any disadvantage other than extra equipment.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I have one or two pieces of 1/2'' Rmax in the top cover the extra pcs. helped to raise the telescoping cover enough to expose the notch on the inner cover . Had to take them out of the one hive as the black ants were making a mess out of it chewing on it this summer , but I'll put them back in . 

How many of you are using quilt box's . not sure how much they really help , I'm pretty sure commercial guys don't take the time to mess with them but either way they can't hurt !


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The inner cover will reduce the effectiveness of the quilt box function. It probably is more of an issue the colder the climate. I see it as a means of getting the moisture out while minimizing the amount of heat lost in the process.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I am using inner covers under the quilt boxes. The way I see it, it is the same as a candy board as far as slowing the air flow/humidity down and through the small hole. Candy boards are the same just edible.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Where was the inner cover intended to be when the quilt box came into use- over , under or not used at all . If its placed under the quilt box will it be as effective , I noticed mold on the under side of my inner covers last year and if my memory is right I had them under the quilt box .


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Suspect that it is not necessary but no harm in using it.

I run a 2 1/2 feed rim with a 3/4 round entrance/vent hole, then an inner cover with notch up above that and then a quilt box and lastly, an insulated telescopic cover. Installed a 3/8 spacer strip of wood across the inner cover hole so the quilt didn't sag and block the round hole in the inner cover. Also have 2 1/2-5/8 by 3/8 entrances at sides of bottom entrance. Have 8 x 1 inch screened holes in sides of quilt box( two per side).

Some may call this overkill but worked very well with 3 out of 4 hives surviving the harsh winter last year. Hive that died out was Deformed Wing Virus, as I tried for honey before I treated for mites with Apivar.

The 3/4 round hole, notch in inner cover and quilt box provide adequate/backup ventilation should the bottom entrance get blocked. Hive interior was dry and no mold above the inner cover or under side of telescopic cover.


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## linn (Nov 19, 2010)

I have two hives with quilt boxes. One hive has a 5lb candy board with an oval opening and then the quilt box. There is a 5/8th ventilation hole drilled toward the top front of the quilt box by the hand holes. The quilt box is a deep that is filled with straw.
The other hive has a 2 1/2 rim with candy directly on the top bars, then the quilt box, and then the outer cover. Again this is a deep filled with straw and a 5/8th vent hole drilled in the front of the deep by the hand hole.
In both cases I have hardware cloth covering the vent holes in the quilt boxes. The bees do not have access to the quilt boxes.I have hardware cloth stapled on the bottoms of the quilt boxes. I don't think I have inner covers on either of the hives. There is another post about quilt boxes and porous insulating material. In the other post, a beekeeper said that with porous material the ventilation must be above the porous material. The stated reason is that the dew point is closer to the bees. It sounds like if porous material such as straw is not vented correctly the bees will be living on the Moors.
The poster(s) also said that non-porous material such as homosote needs to be vented below the insulating material.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

mgolden , I like your setup and you said no moisture or mold , I was originally thinking the quilt box would be better used if the whole area was exposed to the damp air coming up from the hive instead of just the little bit that comes up through the small hole in the inner cover .But I like the idea of having the inner cover below kind of sealing the hive up warm and safe inside with excess moisture still coming up through and into the quilt box .You didn't see any sign of moisture on the bottom of the inner cover , thats where I would think it would be .


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Under side of inner cover is quite warm and I doubt moisture condenses on it. I have a probe on the top side of the inner cover towards the sides and it is 20 -30 F warmer than outside ambient. Radar posted a picture of internal hive temps a couple of weeks ago and the temp is warm towards the top of interior.

I have had some mold on the under side of my telescopic cover. This was before my quilt box days and feed rims and I had the inner cover notch facing down for an upper entrance. The cavity between the top side of the inner cover and underside of insulated telescopic cover was an enclosed air space with little ventilation. So I have changed to run inner covers with notch up. 

With inner cover notch up and quilt above that, there is some air being exhausted that will dry the underside of the quilt box.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I think the whole point of quilt boxes is unimpeded warm and air and moisture flow up to and through the fabric floor of the quilt box into the filling, and then onwards and out of the hive.

Anything in that air pathway that might create a condensation plane where the warm moist air might meet a colder, vapor impermeable surface would create the risk of condensate dripping back down on to the bees.

Notwithstanding its cozy-sounding name, a "quilt" box is primarily, in my view, a moisture-management tool, and only secondarily a hive-heat retention tool. 

I find my bees spend their days (summer and winter, as I leave the quilt boxes on year-round and only vary the amount of filling) in soft, open, festoons hanging down from quilt box's floor. One very bad girl chewed through her QB this summer, but otherwise they are excellent ventilation tools.

I never use inner covers.

My winter stack configuration (from top down):

Telecover w/1.5" of foam tucked up inside;

1.5" shim with two never-blocked 1" holes, one on each short end;

QB with fabric floor, filled with pine shavings in a pile that comepltely fills the box mounds up into the open space of the shim above, I use a comb-depth box (slightly shallower than and regular shallow);

1.5" shim that serves as my feeding rim. It has also two holes (both usually bee-screened or mouse-guarded, depending on season), though one is completely closed off during the winter. The other serves as the winter entrance (except for the colony where it serves as the main, and only, hive entrance - this colony flately refuses to use their regular entrance.

Boxes for stores and bees below the above.

This arrangement seems simple and straightforward without the extra layer of the inner cover. 


Enj.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Think both systems work well. The number of pieces of equipment is the same as it's either the vent shim above the quilt box or the inner cover. Some of it is use what equipment you have.

I had problems with ants taking up residence in the quilt boxes(made with shavings) in the summer, so had to remove them. I remove the burlap and shavings and use the shim as a vent box above the inner cover in summer. Also use them as a shim above the inner cover for placing supers of extracted frames or sometimes crystalized honey frames.

Use the salvaged shavings in the smoker.


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## ABruce (Dec 27, 2013)

M Golden do you wrap or insulate your hives as well as using the quilt box?


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## the kid (Nov 26, 2006)

rookie2531 said:


> I am using inner covers under the quilt boxes. The way I see it, it is the same as a candy board as far as slowing the air flow/humidity down and through the small hole. Candy boards are the same just edible.


last fall when I put the girls to bed '' by mistake I put the inner cover under the guilt box and the moisture condensed on the inner cover and dripped down on the girls killed the hive .. I make a spacer from furring strip , I put burlap on the spacer ... I put a candy bar and patty on the frames , put the spacer on , put a box on and fill with chips ,, inner cover , outer cover ....


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

So why are some of us getting condensation on the inner cover and others are not , different climate .


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

I use 2 inch pink styrofoam on sides and back and 1/2 pink styrofaom on front side. 2 1/2 pink styrofoam plus 1/2 plywood or suspended ceiling board in telescopic cover. 2 inch under bottom board. Then black wrap.

Link below is interior hive temps. If I remeber correctly, it was the insulated hives.

http://www.beesource.com/files/usda-thermology-fig2.gif

the kid, condensation occurs because of poor ventilalion and inner cover must be coldest surface in hive, as that is where moisture condenses first. Also need an absorbent material such as shavings, plywood or ceiling tile so condensation doesn't drip as readily. If you describe your hive configuration, insulation, and ventilation, I'm sure members will try to help.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I dont use an inner cover as I want the rising warm moist air to have as big of a contact are as possible with the shavings quilt. Last winter I used 1 1/2" feed rims with top entrance holes incorporated in them. A sheet of screen over the feed rim then shallow hive body for the burlap and shavings quilt. Top telescope cover propped up for venting over the shavings pillow. 8 out of 8 survived last winter. Our winter would be similar to mgolden's.

Is the inner covers being used to hold the shavings quilt up off the frames and/or top feed? I think it important to leave the whole bottom of the shavings quilt exposed to the bees bedroom.


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## the kid (Nov 26, 2006)

I think if the inner cover is right above the frames you get condensation so leave the whole bottom of it exposed to the bees bedroom 

I make a spacer from 1x2 and tack burlap to the top of it so there is a 1.5 inch space open ,,and yes leave the whole bottom of it exposed to the bees bedroom cause the wood of the inner cover stops the moisture from getting to the shavings so it condenses on the inner cover and drips down on the bees ,,,, but thats just MHO and the way I do it


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

the kid said:


> I think if the inner cover is right above the frames you get condesation but if on top of the quilt/insulation you don't


Think lot's of bee keepers winter with inner cover above the frames and don't get overhead condensation. One of the keys is insulation above the inner cover so area stays warmer and can dry. The other key is ventilation - if I ran with just an inner cover plus insulation, I'd have a notch in the rim on both the top and bottom side. Top notch vents cavity between inner cover and telescopic cover and bottom notch serves as a top entrance and exhaust port for moisture and CO2.

An inner cover on top of a quilt box would serve little purpose. If it had a notch in both top and bottom rims, you get some venting of moisture.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Mgolden has a good point on condensation. Condensation occurs only when and where the moisture laden air is cooled to the saturation point. If insulation keeps the air warm, consensation will not occur till the air travels to a point where it drops to its dew point. I edited my previous post because it was not clear whether I was talking about the bottom of the quilt or a proposed inner cover.. I think the inner cover under the shavings quilt would impede air flow and moisture transfer to the quilt. The quilt is a moisture dissipator not a moisture storage device.

I have not come up with clear supporting reference but it appears that the moisture produced from metabolizing the honey may well be over 5 gallons in the course of the winter. That is a lot of water to get rid of!


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## the kid (Nov 26, 2006)

I only put the inner cover on top of the quilt to keep track of it ,, or come spring were the heck did I put that darn inner cover ,, last year i had the quilt right above the cover and it driped ,,, but that was here


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

We made and are using some quilt boxes this year for the first time.

Our quilt box is almost as deep as a medium. 
This is a description...... It has a small two-bee hole for entrance/ventilation at bottom edge (short side) of quilt box. That hole has a wooden arch with a "flap" on the exterior to keep out wind/rain/snow. Just above the quilt box entrance is 1/4" plywood with about 9 large 3" holes and window screening is secured on top of that. That plywood supports the screening which supports the cedar shavings, plus keeps the dirt from falling on the frames. The shavings are put into a pillow case which rests on canvas on top of the screening also. There is a 3 inch layer of shavings. There is no sagging onto the frames.

Above the quilt box, we have a 3 inch shim with screened ventilation hole towards top. The tele. cover protects this hole. Then the tele. cover. We are considering putting a piece of insulation on top of the tele cover.

We will probably not use an inner cover thru the winter.

I am coming to the conclusion that the quilt box used early before cold fall/winter and thru late into spring helps the bees stay active in the hive longer during the season and helps make favorable brood rearing conditions earlier in spring. They should have a greater ability to reach stores and not cold starve.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

So if I go with the feeding shim with hole for top entrance and ventilation on top of the brood chamber ( so I can get sugar bricks right on top of the frames ), then the quilt box and then the inner cover and then a insulated telescoping cover -- would this set up lead to any mold on the inner cover .


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Personally I would lose the inner cover entirely. Moisture that goes into the bottom of the quilt cushion eventually should be able to get out the top of if; think evaporating surface area. What advantage is there to reducing the area with an inner cover? Insulating value? I have nothing but a screen and the quilt cushion between the bees and the propped up telescoping cover. The top inch of the shavings feel damp but the bottom next to the bees feels warm and toasty!


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Yeah I'm thinking something to stop to much warm air loss,if the inner cover isn't down on top of the brood chamber seems like there is nothing to stop warm air from escaping right up through the feed shim and through the quilt box and out the vent holes , I know alot of guys are not using a inner cover but its scary in real cold weather , and I'm sure you have colder temps than me . Its the same as a screen bottom board ,I would think the bee's could never survive the cold air coming in , but I'm sure not enough ventilation kills alot of hives also , I'm just having a hard time trying to reach the middle of the road !

If I do away with the inner cover the top of the quilt box will still seal on the insulation inside the top cover unless its shimmed .


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Laketrout, what does your "quilt " consist of? How thick is it? Mine are about 4" thick of course pine shavings in a coarse mesh burlap bag. I consider it my top insulation and the top cover is only to keep the snow and rain off it. I prop the edge of the cover up on the edge of the quilt box so the quilt can breathe off the transpired moisture.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Frank its a 3'' shim with a medium weight canvas stretched tight on the bottom with loose course pine wood shavings filled to the top of the shim .

Sounds like your bag of pine shavings are going to add more insulation, than my loose set up I don't consider my set up adding much insulation , its more of a loose approach so air can dry it out from the vent holes on the side .


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