# 8 Frame vs 10 Frame? Pros and Cons..



## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

After going thru Grandpa's stuff, I notice most of his stuff was 8 frame. He used deeps and shallows, no mediums. He tinkered with Foundationless. He made and sold comb honey. He did not have an extractor.

As I build my hives for the coming year, I am kicking around making some 8 frame hives. I have noticed that bees are reluctant to use the outer frames of a 10 frame. Do they do the same with 8? Other than weight of handling, what are the advantages of an 8 frame hive over a 10 frame? Or disadvantages?


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I really thought long and hard about 8 vs. 10 before I started using langstroth hives, and ended up choosing 8's - Deeps and mediums.

For me, it's the smaller interior and the ease of lifting when compared to the 10 frame. I'm also using narrow frames in the brood nest. 

Adam


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

You won't regret it Adam.


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## ImaNewBeeToThis (Dec 27, 2012)

I'm told bees like to build up so it would make sense to use 8 frames


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

They definantly use the outer frames in 8 frame equipment.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

If I had to start again I would go 8. Now that I have 700 Deeps it would be hard to change.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Have never seen bees not use outer frames in my 10 frame set up but I don't use deeps..


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Do they do the same with 8?

No. They use them all and they clean them all out as they move up over winter.

> Other than weight of handling, what are the advantages of an 8 frame hive over a 10 frame? Or disadvantages? 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#lighterboxes
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm

>After going thru Grandpa's stuff, I notice most of his stuff was 8 frame. He used deeps and shallows, no mediums. He tinkered with Foundationless. He made and sold comb honey. He did not have an extractor.

All of that is coming back. As you see it's not new...
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnotinvented.htm#using8frameboxes


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

EastSideBuzz said:


> If I had to start again I would go 8. Now that I have 700 Deeps it would be hard to change.


Sounds like a great "winter project" up there in Issaquah!


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

9-10 I always rotate in all the time and it is a good place to put a feeder etc. Otherwise they really only work 8 well. Like I said if I had to do it over I would have gone with 8's. You can fit more on a truck then.


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## redsquirel (May 24, 2009)

What if you are wanting to get into pollination, do most growers, brokers or whoever else, require 10's or are 8's becoming more acceptable?


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

redsquirel said:


> What if you are wanting to get into pollination, do most growers, brokers or whoever else, require 10's or are 8's becoming more acceptable?


I think it's based on frames of bees/brood to begin the contract isn't it?

Adam


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

I cut down some of my 10s to eights and put the BB entrance at the face of the frames. I am happy with both moves. 

Rick


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Most of our operation is in 10 frame. We use 8 frame for all our comb honey production just because they prefer to work up not out and we consistently get 8 frames of filled comb honey. We started using them for comb in the 1990's because we were doing basswood boxes and wee tired of not getting the outside frames completed. They are lighter and easier to move, take less paint and less area to store. Even in 8 frame singles we seem to winter well as the draw the combs out and fill them. Suprisingly I don't think they swarm any more than our 10 frame hives do although that may be because our comb honey hives are always 1st year queens. I certainly would not hesitate to use Granpa's equipment - How cool is that when your out in the yard working bees in hives that have been in the family for 3 generations! I think you'd be pretty happy with them.


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## redsquirel (May 24, 2009)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I think it's based on frames of bees/brood to begin the contract isn't it?
> 
> Adam


Yeah Adam, I'm not sure. I was thinking about switching to all 8 frame mediums for the size, weight and everything I have read about 8 vs 10 it just sounds like it might have an advantage. But, I had talked to a Almond broker a couple years ago and it sounded like they only like 10 frame deeps, and yes there was something about frames of brood and certain amount of live coverage. It would be interesting to know though.


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

I think I am going to build an 8 frame or 2 to give it a shot. 

My hives are for my own personal use. I don't plan to loan out or travel with them. The idea of them being lighter is good, I do plan to move between my house and farm, 50 miles.

Grandpa's stuff was too far gone to use, been out in the weather and barn for over 30 years. It is pretty rotted and rough. I may try to make something out of some of it. I plan on using his old frames in swarm traps.

I wonder which would winter better, 10 or 8? I am thinking 8, less open space, more thermally efficient.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

IMHO, and where I am, 8 vs 10 for overwintering is little to no difference given sufficient stores. It has been discussed here before that bees heat the cluster, not so much the space. Protection from direct wind and moisture is the key here.  
Rick


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I cut down all my 10's to 8's last winter, only 60 or so boxes. It was allot of work but it was worth it. I learned a lesson from MB about 8's so I don't have to buy anymore nuc boxes. I just use two follower boards and I have a 6 frame nuc box. Everything is the same size. Much easier.


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

I rent out all my 8 frame hives along with my remaining 10 frame hives. My almond growers are only concerned about how many frames of bees I provide per each. I have been switching all my 10s to 8s for a few years now. Soon, I will only have 8s. I run double deep broods with meds as honey supers. I tried other configurations, but I really prefer the 8s.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What if you are wanting to get into pollination, do most growers, brokers or whoever else, require 10's or are 8's becoming more acceptable? 

Seems like a lot of people are going to 8 frame for shipping them on trucks because you can fit more hives on a truck. 8 frame equipment will fit 7 across an eight foot wide bed. I would think mediums would confuse them more than 8 frames. But still I would think they could do the math. Les Crowder used to pollinate the almonds with top bar hives...


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

I am looking at going to med. only and had an interesting discussion on another thread on this subject. MB and I went into the math of surface area of a 2 deep 10 frame to an 8 frame box set up with the same surface area (foundation) and that was 4 boxes. I am under 10 hives but I still worry about the stability of an 8 frame hive that has 4 boxes of brood and 3-4 boxes of harvest honey area. Other than that I do like the idea and I am negotiating with Janet at Country Rubes for my med. box order, much cheaper for a small scale guy like me instead of building the equipment for hot wax dipping like MB does.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I don't use 8 frame equipment, but I would think the only advantage over 10 frame is weight, but your not talking a big difference anyway. If weight is your priority, then why not go with 10 frame mediums for everything. A couple advantages of 10 frame equipment, it gives you 2 more frames of brood per box, it gives you a larger cavity in winter, not that the cluster fills the whole box wall to wall, but the extra frames on each side provide more of a buffer between the cluster and outside. Another thing would be the stability issue as you mentioned, however, I think that is fairly minor. John


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

I use all deep 8 frame and 5 frame boxes. I vary the box width, not the frame.

I use 8 frame as production because bees love to move up, it works better with foundationless frames, the edge frames are better utilized, and I can winter 2 deeps on 16 frames rather than 20.

In short, it is cheaper for me to do that, especially considering I build all my parts and would like to peddle some nucs in the future.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I have tons of 10 frame deeps. It was the only woodenware available for sale locally in my area when I started out. But I love the 5 frame nucs and 8 frame deeps. So I use all three sizes for different reasons.

Ten frames deeps are great for dividing into nucs and still have other uses. Just pop in a follower board and you have any size you want.


It's funny, they will never cross that board and build burr comb in the empty space, as long as they are not horraby overcrowded. 



















Heres a 10 frame box turned into a 6+ frame nuc.









Heres that same box with a shelf routed into the side to accept mini frames:









Here is the hive shown above -now full of bees. Miniframes on ther right,made from combining mating nucs inthe fall, and small late nuc of standard deep frames on the left-3 over 3.









Sharing the warmth this winter












So you can see your current 10 frame deeps are not a waste if you want to switch to 8 frames or 5 frame sizes for your production or standard hives.
Still, nothing wrong with ten frame deeps, if you can handle them. They do have the most bang for the buck.
On my small scale, I do enjoy having just the right sized box for the job.

And when you get your new 8 frame box's,take some time to put a good finish on them!









Here's my facebook page for instructions and photos showing how to do this crackle finish. It's an older post, scroll down until you come to it. It's a great winter time project.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510

I'll add, Mann Lake's budget 8 frame and 5 frame deeps have been superior quality. 
Just sayin'...And free shipping... 

This is an 8 frame budget..no sanding..Just Watco stain and spar urethane.









In my opinion, Man Lake's budgets now are better than their selects were in 2011. No blow outs now on the hand holds-ever.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Outstanding pics Lauri.

Are those Mann lake feeders and mini frames?


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Lauri: Very nice looking hives and pics, excellent job on the JD hive! 

I prefer the 10 frame 7-5/8" boxes for brood and honey and like someone else had stated earlier in this post they do draw out and fill the outer frames on the other sized 10 frame boxes besides deeps. 
One thing that people forget to mention that is a plus on the 10 frame deeps and not filling the outer frames is that you have empty frames to rotate into the outer honey frames on the brood nest. I beek does not have to carry extra frames with (unless you already have rotated them in) because they are already on site and once the honey flow hits high gear you should be expanding your bee/honey space upward and outward by rotating the empty frames inward. 
I also like the stability of 10 frame when loading trucks with my skid steer.
I tried some 8 frame hives and they sure seemed to swarm a lot which was probably my fault because I don't always make it to my outyards in a timely manner and they ran out of space. We use Mother Lode feeders that take up 2 frames of space and that would turn a 8 frame box into a 6 frame. Just some thoughts!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

DonShackelford said:


> Outstanding pics Lauri.
> 
> Are those Mann lake feeders and mini frames?


Thank you Don, 
They are Mann Lake feeders and home made mini frames-cut down and remilled from Mann Lake deep frames. I make them 9 1/4" instead of 9 1/8". 
9 1/4" just fits better.








Heres some frames all cut and preped for assembly. 









I'd guess it takes me about 3 hours to cut and mill 100 deeps into 200 mini's,but I think I get a better product and save myself over $100.
I do one extra step, to run the cut edge of the top bar over a shaper router blade to ease the square top edge. Net necssary, but a better finish.

This frame looks big in the photo, but it is a 9 1/4" mini deep. You can see the eased edge of the home cut and milled end on the right, squared off corners of the stock side on the left.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Lauri: What do you use to cut that black plastic foundation with?


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Lauri said:


> I do one extra step, to run the cut edge of the top bar over a shaper router blade to ease the square top edge.


I'd sure like to get you in my shop for a few weeks! ;-)

I'm bringing up some 10 frame singles from Florida in April, so then I'll be running 5,8, & 10 frame deeps. At least I only have one size frame.... except some shallows I use for comb honey. 

I tried hard to have one box and one frame, but it just doesn't seem to work that way.


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## bluescorpion (Sep 6, 2012)

This is an interesting thread. I was just about to go and purchase 15 deeps to expand my 2 hive operation and ran across this thread. NOW, I'm thinking about purchasing the 8 frame hive bodies instead of the 10 frame. Anybody else have any input on 8 vs. 10 frames?

Thanks


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Mtn. Bee said:


> Lauri: What do you use to cut that black plastic foundation with?


Compound miter saw..I cut ten at a time. Use eye and ear protection though. Hold tight to the fence and cut slowly.
Of course you lay your rite cell flat to cut. I just stood it on edge in the photo so you can see I cut off the corners too. After seeing how the queen will never cross a follower board, although she could easily over the top or bottom, I cut corners off my foundation to give better accessability from one frame to the next. It is necessary? Probably not, but it makes me feel better and only takes a few minutes to do a whole carton of 100.









Since I am forcing them to build mostly worker comb with this foundation, these cut corners give them room to draw out some drone comb if they want.

You can cut them with a razor knife and straight edge too. Just score it and snap it. You don't have to cut all the way through.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It was pretty gusty here at times, i had an 8 frame 4 deep hive broadside to the winds and no issues with it getting blown over or anything. That being said, working a 3 deep high 10 frame was slightly easier since I don't have to pull a heavy box off at eye level and it's only 2 frames difference.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

I use 8 frame jumbo brood chambers with western, medium & shallow supers. In 10 frame equipment I like 7 5/8" (western) for all boxes.

Each size has its merits!


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

I may even cut down my 10 frames this weekend too. One of the cedar boxes split at one of the screws anyway and needs trimmed. I wish Walter Kelly would make that nice plastic cover in an 8 frame size.

I am going to try to make some 8 frame gabled covered this weekend too if I have time.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Here is a step by step cutting a 10 frame down to an eight frame:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm#cutdownboxes


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