# Possible Negative Points of Three Deep Hives



## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Three deeps can be done, be prepared to treat and treat as often as needed. I'm learning the bigger the hives are, the faster they fall.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

crofter said:


> 1. The extra height and less efficient use of wooden ware are often mentioned and that is fairly obvious. Less swarm control problems is debatable perhaps. My interest is earlier buildup in extrem cold short season climate and possibly reduced need for fall feeding.
> 
> 2. Will winter survival match what 2 deeps can do? Under varying fall flow conditions can bees sometimes chimney up and cluster high in the boxes leaving a big portion of honey unobtainably below them?
> 
> ...


1. the extra equipment gives you more options. you can use the equipment and extra honey for making nucs. The extra equipment while on the hive also allows the queen to keep laying during really good flows when the bees would normally compress the brood chamber, meaning you have more bees for the next flow if you are so lucky. the extra equipment also allows the bees to store more pollen in the lower brood chamber(when it's available) which also allows an earlier build up in the spring. I have only had to feed my hives once in the last 12 years, and that was when the golden rod flow was a complete failure.

2. I've been 3 deep so long I can't comment, but my losses are lower than my buddies and he runs all two deeps. The chimney affect is a real "problem" that you have to watch for, I pull my honey earlier than most so that I don't have that problem and the hives are heavy enough to not require feeding.

3. Mr Palmer also uses Carnie's that are said to use less honey. I use the three deeps to get the early flows that other beeks miss, it takes some practice but really can pay off, you also need to requeen a bit more as the queens run out of gas faster.

4. depends what you mean by "non intervention slanted management" if non intervention means not treating for mites, then no, if you mean not looking in the brood chamber often, with the 3 deeps and after a good flow, it's hard to go through a bunch of hives do to weight considerations. We had a great locust and bass wood flow this year, by the time I had all my queen ready to requeen, The hives were to big to requeen as many as I would have liked, so ended up overwintering the nucs and going into winter with older queens.

good luck with the cabin fever, I hear it's contagious.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

So, do the bees really use all three deeps? Or, does it allow them to 'chimney' up utilizing frames overhead as opposed to frames to the sides?

Tom


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

TWall said:


> So, do the bees really use all three deeps? Or, does it allow them to 'chimney' up utilizing frames overhead as opposed to frames to the sides?
> 
> Tom


I am guessing that if there is a heavy fall flow (which you let them keep) that the bees in a triple deep hive will be forced down into lower boxes. If the fall flow doesnt happen or if you pull it all, do they risk starting winter cluster in a hollowed out center of the upper box? Would it be easier to manipulate bees cluster location in a double deep or is that never a concern in the triple deep?

I treat for mites and keep low counts. I inspect for signs of backfilling and move excluders in and out depending on drawn or bare combs and honey cap. I usually manage to keep the queen out of my honey supers. Most queens get renewed each year. I am not attracted to the idea of unlimited brood nests but can see it fitting some peoples schedules and philosophy.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

TWall said:


> So, do the bees really use all three deeps? Or, does it allow them to 'chimney' up utilizing frames overhead as opposed to frames to the sides?
> 
> Tom


what they do is keep the brood in the middle frames top to bottom and fill the side two frames on each side with capped honey. They use all the frames, you will find more stored pollen in a 3 deep and usually more honey. with the extra frames, you can make more mistakes and the configuration gives you more of a chance to recover from it. If you under super b/4 a big flow, they still have places to put it. because you have all the extra frames, during a big flow when they would use the brood nest to store nectar, the extra frames lets the queen still find places to lay eggs. The only time the chimney is a problem if they don't get a good flow in the fall, it causes two problems, #1 the brood is higher up and they can't get at the side frames below, #2 you have more bees as the queen may not shut down on her own, and since you haven't filled the frames above with honey, they are light, not a good condition to be in going into winter.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

crofter said:


> #1 Would it be easier to manipulate bees cluster location in a double deep or is that never a concern in the triple deep?
> 
> #2 I inspect for signs of backfilling and move excluders in and out depending on drawn or bare combs and honey cap. I am not attracted to the idea of unlimited brood nests but can see it fitting some peoples schedules and philosophy.


#1. it's never a concern for me until the fall, and only if I don't get a flow.

#2. if you use queen excluders, I wouldn't try 3 deeps, you will end up honey bound and no honey in the supers.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> what they do is keep the brood in the middle frames top to bottom and fill the side two frames on each side with capped honey. They use all the frames, you will find more stored pollen in a 3 deep and usually more honey. with the extra frames, you can make more mistakes and the configuration gives you more of a chance to recover from it. If you under super b/4 a big flow, they still have places to put it. because you have all the extra frames, during a big flow when they would use the brood nest to store nectar, the extra frames lets the queen still find places to lay eggs. The only time the chimney is a problem if they don't get a good flow in the fall, it causes two problems, #1 the brood is higher up and they can't get at the side frames below, #2 you have more bees as the queen may not shut down on her own, and since you haven't filled the frames above with honey, they are light, not a good condition to be in going into winter.


Lots of points here to digest! The three deeps should give bigger early populatations, but the lack of dependable fall flow in my are might be a caution. I suppose a person could manually pull some honey frames to upper boxes and concentrate the stores above the cluster.


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

I run a mix of hives, singles and doubles for honey production.
Some of my bees can be pretty aggressive. 
Especially when it comes time for me to rob them of their supers. Seems to me that my most aggressive hives produce the most amount of honey for me, so I can overlook this issue.
The Double Deeps strength is something I have came to respect. Tripe Deep strength, I don't think I would want to try and tackle.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Double-deeps when about to swarm or are queenless are meaner than heck. It gets where you simply close it up and walk away or you will suffer the consequences. Triple-deeps? Have seen a couple giant hives like that but the owners refuse to open them up to look. You gotta really love bees to dig thru a 2-deep that's gone mean. Don't love them enough to go for 3. Maybe someday.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Another user here on the forum tells me that it is some fun  trying to find the queen in one of his tripple deeps! -- I have trouble with that in a nuc! My bees are puppy dogs according to the bee inspectors but they do get a bit picky when they are queenless.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

I personally see no reason for any more than two deeps for brood and wintering. Beyond this, I think there is frames of crystalized honey and pollen that is taking up space and not ever used.

I see Ian works with a single deep as his brood box other than a couple of months in the spring and gets lots of bees for production. A single deep for brood is pushing the minimal limit and likely causes some swarming problems.

Most outdoor wintering around here is with two deeps. I'd fall feed syrup to bring the double deep up to wintering weight. If the hive was light, I think sugar blocks in a feed rim or a candy board with 20lb of sugar would top up the shortfall.

In driving around, I note the occasional setup with single deeps for wintering. They may be 5 frames of bees and honey and fall syrup but think I'd be adding a candy board with 20lb of sugar.

At 40 cents a pound, $8 for 20 lbs isn't a lot of money.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

I messed around with a triple deep this year when another hive double deep went queenless and I needed to consolidate the population as they worked up a new queen. Keep in mind this is my limited experience. The hive I put it on was busting at the seams so I knew they could and would defend as well as fill it with any flow. There was a very light flow so they weren't really collecting but they weren't consuming stores and the queen was still laying like a champ. The hive was a huge swarm I'd caught 8 weeks prior and I have no idea of the queen's lineage. Long story short the queen started laying in the upper 2 and refused to lay in the lowest. Plenty of population down there but no eggs/brood. I normally knock my hives down to double deeps for wintering unless they've got brood in a super. If that's the case I'll overwinter 2 deep and a super. With that hive I stole the bottom deep that had no brood or honey (did have a couple frames with some pollen). I shook the bees out of that deep and they returned home in an orderly fashion.

It left me wondering if the queen could/would actually use 3 deeps. Considering when the supers do have larva I've found the bottom deep only had larva in the upper portion of the deep I'm of the opinion, not normally. Personally I've gone to wintering in 2 deeps because it's easier for them to defend and it consolidates the population. I do feed and feed heavy to ensure they've got stores.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

This year, my winter stacks are three deeps, _plus_ a medium. I'm pretty sure they will be only three deeps next year. The added medium is a holdover from my previous winters when I added interior insulation and follower boards to make my 10-frame boxes into 8-frame size. (Three deeps and a medium in 8-frame equipment is actually 29 1/2 deep equivalent, or almost three deeps.) I had such a prolonged fall flow this year that that never happened so they are in 10-frames and weigh a ton. I'm hoping that this year's lack of interior insulation, and relative narrowing of the cavity will not be a bad thing. I am still adding a very thick layer of exterior insulation.

The trick for me next year will be to get them to fill only deeps after a certain point - and knowing exactly that point will take some sharp observation, and probably very good luck. But at the same time it will simplify things in the spring because I won't wind up with any early brood in a medium box that has to be worked down and out of the stack.

I am puzzled by the comments about the temperament of three-deeps vs. smaller stacks. Of course, I know a nuc can be (most of the time) a pussy cat and full-sized hives are bolder. But my huge colonies are generally mild and steady when I work them. Occasionally I do something to piss them off, but that's my mistake and I have never (except in my first summer, ironically when they still quite small) been afraid of my bees. Are we sure that the same strain of bees generally becomes meaner as they get bigger, or is that just what we expect so that's what we see? My summer stacks are often 5 to 7 boxes tall, with at least three deeps, sometimes four, when I have a young, second year queen really cranking the bees out. My bees are all mutts from local swarms in an area with remaining strong feral population, (and now locally-mated, home-gown queens, too) but they are not difficult to work. I use just nitrile gloves, a hive jacket w/ veil and jeans. 

I was flabbergasted by the earlier thread that asked how many stings people had had this summer. I get stung pretty regularly and consider it just the price of being beekeeper, so I pay little attention to them. I have no clue how many I get in any month, much less for the whole year. Are people really expecting to not get stung at all? 

I think the main advantage of a three deep hive is that there is more opportunity for them to cluster in the middle box's frames when it gets really frigid and still have a whole deep overhead. I think the needed horizontal movement to fully capture and utilize all the stores in a two-deep is less of a sure bet than simply moving steadily upward through three (or more) boxes

In the spring, I sort through the frames in the boxes w/o brood, sometimes removing a whole box if there are that many empty frames. Then I make sure that there is a box of alternating filled/empty drawn comb in the box just above the active brood area (using Walt's technique). I also open the sides of the brood nest. When the bees have expanded their brood into the second box, then I'll bring up (or back) the third deep with drawn comb and put it on top, so the brood area is slowly sinking in the stack order. Mostly that third box will be empty drawn comb, but usually by then we are close to the flow so I use the occasion to get some new ones started. 

At this point I am usually using Snelgrove boards to make increase (because I am still growing my apiary) and also to manage/ deter swarming.

I am also still accumulating drawn comb, so if the anticipated flow is on at this point I will start adding new Piercos, or foundation (with home-applied extra wax, which works very well to get them started) so I can build up my stock. Some of my colonies drew 30 new frames for me this year. Such good girls!

The other issue with three deeps, especially year-round three deeps, is treating them with MAQS which should be placed between two brood boxes. I think next summer I think I will sandwich one strip between box #1 and box #2 and then another strip between box #2 and box #3. This isn't using any more product at one time than the standard two-strip dosing, but I think it will give better coverage than two strips between the uppermost two boxes. Sometimes I get lucky and the week I want to use MAQS is one when they only have brood in two boxes, but still I think the added size of the overall stack compromises the effectiveness, somewhat, no matter where you place the strips.

When I do OAV, I just use more crystals for the increased numbers of boxes on the stack. 

I like three deeps because of the possibilities for storing a really good amount of winter honey. I like my stacks to be a minimum of 150 lbs, and am happy if they are edging up towards 200 lbs. The risk of trying that in only two deeps (and a medium) is that the bees could get antsy and swarm in the fall if space gets tight. With lots of room they just keep happily packing it away, especially pollen. Some areas may not have forage that produces reliably good fall pollen but I do (goldenrod and asters are big here). That pollen is the supercharger for spring brood, and better (and safer for the bees) than any commercial product I can supply. 

The only other downside of three-deeps for winter is that if you are using Snelgrove boards, you may be lifting some of them quite high and they will be heavy with the needed stores for the queenless part of the process. (Snelgroves do produce a good deal of honey in addition to some extra queens - if you want them - so it's way to get both.)

My eye is accustomed to the mass of my big, tall hives and they just look prosperous and healthy to me, with excellent prospects for winter survival. Smaller (and thinner, 8-frame) colonies that I see here and there look like they're much more at risk. I don't know for sure if my (so far) excellent wintering success is a function of my bigger stacks, and I am not willing to risk some of my colonies to do an A/B test.

If I ran 8-frame equipment three deeps would absolutely be my minimum winter stack, with a medium on top of that, to get them up to weight.

Enj.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

This triple deep I am putting into winter is my only experience with three deeps and it came about by complicated circumstances. Will see how it performs next season. There are reports that the bottom box gets filled with a high percentage of pollen; could that make the bees reluctant to move the cluster down into it? They can move honey around handily but maybe pollen, not so much.

Perhaps in a relatively warmer climate where the cluster has more mobility during thaws they can move around and use stores that might be a bit scattered. With solid month long extreme cold maybe they have to be able to inch upward and be assured the honey is there or starve. Purely conjecture though on my part.


Edit: I see Enjambres was typing away and posted while I was pecking away. I think she must have read my mind. I am using Snelgrove system too and haven't though through the implications of the third brood box. Yes they do get high stacks and I am getting more virtically challenged all the time. I think the bees being more aggressive with larger hives might be due to having them torn apart and spread around more for longer time periods. The murmur changes more to a roar the longer you mess with them.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Frank, I hope you don't mind if I interject some ideas and queries into your three deep thread  

Seven of my hives are three deep 10 framers, the other three are three deep 5 framers, this is the first year that I have made what I consider a good harvest for this area, I spun out 15 gallons plus and I have had only one false swarm in the past two years (that I know of). In previous years I ran the hives in a two deep configuration and they seemed to swarm continuously with little or no harvest. I know that with one and two deep broodnests swarms can be minimized by manipulations but with my work schedule this type of micro management is impossible for me and the three deep configuration works much better. 

I have a two month flow window during May and June when the hives gather their winter stores and honey for me to harvest, but my problem is that during the summer in July and August the nectar dries up and the huge carryover population in these hives consume their winter stores leaving me to feed them up to weight in the fall, and I don't want to be in the position of feeding each year so I will be trying a new experiment this coming new year. 

This will be my experiment; After harvest the first week in July I will be placing the inner cover below the top deep which contains capped winter stores, this should force the hive to consider the inner cover as the top of the broodnest and due to the large population this should force a swarm which should cut the population in half and the hive will then requeen. If this doesn't work to cut down the population, requeen and conserve the top third deep of stores then I will need to come up with other options, however selling nucs to reduce populations won't be an option for me as I neither have the time nor inclination to go into nuc sales. 

I have already decided to scale up my queen rearing program from moving frames of young brood to requeen a hive to actual queen cell production using grafting, a swarm box, and banking queens, this way I can keep ahead of occasional queen problems and be able to keep fresh queens in these big hives. I do believe that Mike (wildbranch) is correct in that the queens seem to "run out of gas", I have experienced the same thing.

In the event my experiment doesn't work out the way I think it should I still need a way to requeen these big heavily populated hives but searching for queens in heavily populated three deep hives right after a spring flow is not a chore I would relish and I wish to continue with the three deep set-up but don't wish to expand my operation by making splits, so I ask those of you who requeen yearly if you consider placing a capped queencell into the top of a queenright hive a valid way to requeen, I am thinking that some of the commercial people do this but I am not certain and may be just farting into the wind since I am not up to speed on the whole requeening process scene. Thanks for any help you can provide.

Bill


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Glad you jumped in Bill; the more ideas and experience we can put together the more we can draw from it. Your question on queen cell acceptance is certainly an important consideration; going through three deeps to take the queen out to requeen and recheck for acceptance is not something to look forward to if there is a simpler way around it. Using the Snelgrove system I just pull the division board out once the new queen is laying well in the upper box and assume that she will go down and either work with her mother below or take the crown away. Admittedly I have not done much in the way of verifying which one survived but satisfied to play the odds. I think keeping young queens is to your advantage when you raise them yourself. Doing the Snelgrove thing is another ball of wax and I dont think that fits in your hectic schedule at times. I have more time to play!

Being out in the sticks having a swarm and broodbreak/requeening during your dearth time seems like a win win thing. Would there be risk of the colony after swarming itself to extinction? How much of a problem will small hive beetles and wax moths bee. I have none of either, lucky me!


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

WWW said:


> #1. I have already decided to scale up my queen rearing program from moving frames of young brood to requeen a hive to actual queen cell production using grafting, a swarm box, and banking queens, this way I can keep ahead of occasional queen problems and be able to keep fresh queens in these big hives. I do believe that Mike (wildbranch) is correct in that the queens seem to "run out of gas", I have experienced the same thing.
> 
> #2In the event my experiment doesn't work out the way I think it should I still need a way to requeen these big heavily populated hives but searching for queens in heavily populated three deep hives right after a spring flow is not a chore I would relish and I wish to continue with the three deep set-up but don't wish to expand my operation by making splits, so I ask those of you who requeen yearly if you consider placing a capped queencell into the top of a queenright hive a valid way to requeen, I am thinking that some of the commercial people do this but I am not certain and may be just farting into the wind since I am not up to speed on the whole requeening process scene. Thanks for any help you can provide.
> 
> Bill


#1. I have queens that go for 3 years, I normally don't breed queens off of them until year 2. If you raise your own, the problem of running out of gas is usually less of a problem.
I requeen any dud, or ones that are not good enough to breed from. If you buy queens most wont work out well. The longer you breed your own queens and run 3 deeps the better and easier it gets.

#2. usually most of my queens are marked, I have tried the method of putting queen cells into the honey supers and hoping to get the old queen replaced. all the commercial guys that do it swear by it. I have heard them say 80-90% success, what I have determined is the 80-90% success is how many hives end up with queens, not how many get replaced.
I had it work fine one year, I had not requeened the hives the year before, all the hives had open queen cells at the same time, I also had a batch of queen cells ready to hatch.
I put the cells into the hives, all the queen cells that hatched, took out the old queens and wiped out the open queen cells, so I ended up requeening most of the yard. but I still try it every once in a while.



enjambres said:


> Some areas may not have forage that produces reliably good fall pollen but I do (goldenrod and asters are big here). That pollen is the supercharger for spring brood, and better (and safer for the bees) than any commercial product I can supply.
> 
> Enj.


 :thumbsup:


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Following this thread


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

crofter said:


> Being out in the sticks having a swarm and broodbreak/requeening during your dearth time seems like a win win thing. Would there be risk of the colony after swarming itself to extinction? How much of a problem will small hive beetles and wax moths bee. I have none of either, lucky me!


In thinning the populations with forced swarming a colony could possibly swarm itself to death and this is a concern to me however I could take a brood frame or two from the nucs if I spotted a weakened colony. The wax moth and hive beetles are certainly a concern but I will just have to take the risk and give it a go. Your fortunate to be free of these pests up where you live.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> #1. I have queens that go for 3 years, I normally don't breed queens off of them until year 2. If you raise your own, the problem of running out of gas is usually less of a problem.
> I requeen any dud, or ones that are not good enough to breed from. If you buy queens most wont work out well. The longer you breed your own queens and run 3 deeps the better and easier it gets.
> 
> #2. usually most of my queens are marked, I have tried the method of putting queen cells into the honey supers and hoping to get the old queen replaced. all the commercial guys that do it swear by it. I have heard them say 80-90% success, what I have determined is the 80-90% success is how many hives end up with queens, not how many get replaced.
> ...


Your reply is definitely encouraging in that the longer I breed my own queens and run three deep hives the easier it gets and I will gladly accept a 80-90% success rate by dropping in a capped queen cell as long as the hive ends up with a queen, however a young queen is definitely the desired outcome and your success on requeening most of the yard encourages me and I look forward to next year when I can start implementing these changes. 

First week in July I will force the hives to swarm and have backup queens at the ready, we will see how it all goes. One of the flies in the ointment so to speak will be the pest's that Frank spoke of, hopefully they won't be a problem.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

WWW said:


> First week in July I will force the hives to swarm and have backup queens at the ready, we will see how it all goes. One of the flies in the ointment so to speak will be the pest's that Frank spoke of, hopefully they won't be a problem.


do you get at bass wood flow? ours is around the 1st or 2nd week of July, if you really wanted to make them swarm towards the end of that flow would probably work.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

one think I will say for those that treat and have a reasonable amount of hives, don't use apivar in the fall, removing all those deeps this fall convinced me that if you want to try it, try it in the spring and use something else in the fall. besides with the # of bees apivar gets expensive.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

My 3 deep 8 frame set up in a high wind area. The hive had been this way for at least 3 days and to my surprise I took 3 to the face when I went to restack it. It was 20 F outside.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> do you get at bass wood flow? ours is around the 1st or 2nd week of July, if you really wanted to make them swarm towards the end of that flow would probably work.


No Basswood flow here and that's the problem, there are no flows July through mid August at which time the Japanese Knotweed flow starts and runs two weeks then comes September which is the Goldenrod flow month. Perhaps the dry 1 1/2 month summer stretch could be overcome with light feeding during this time period but I would need a feeder that is easy to use, I have been using food storage containers on the top frames but these are a pain to use, it would be nice to feed from the outside of the hive, I guess that is why Boardman feeders have kept their popularity throughout the years.

There could be another complication with the forced swarming besides the possible pest problems and after swarms that Frank spoke of. After the forced swarm (and possible after swarms) the colonies might be too weak to take advantage of the fall flow, I would be trading one problem for another. The fall Bamboo honey (Japanese knotweed) is of no interest to me and the hives can have it but I do want to harvest the Goldenrod so the hives need the numbers and already stocked winter stores to accomplish this. For light summer feeding I guess I would need an easier way to feed for at least the month of July and half of August. Opening these 60 k plus boomer hives and trying to feed on the top frames during a dry summer is a feat in itself and a robbing frenzy is a nightmare to remember.





wildbranch2007 said:


> one think I will say for those that treat and have a reasonable amount of hives, don't use apivar in the fall, removing all those deeps this fall convinced me that if you want to try it, try it in the spring and use something else in the fall. besides with the # of bees apivar gets expensive.


Wise advice, I use OAV which is easily done at the entrance of the hive.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

rwurster said:


> My 3 deep 8 frame set up in a high wind area. The hive had been this way for at least 3 days and to my surprise I took 3 to the face when I went to restack it. It was 20 F outside.


Wow rwurster that really sucks, one wouldn't think a colony could survive that but bees are tough little buggers.


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## NCbeek (Mar 23, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> what they do is keep the brood in the middle frames top to bottom and fill the side two frames on each side with capped honey. They use all the frames, you will find more stored pollen in a 3 deep and usually more honey. with the extra frames, you can make more mistakes and the configuration gives you more of a chance to recover from it. If you under super b/4 a big flow, they still have places to put it. because you have all the extra frames, during a big flow when they would use the brood nest to store nectar, the extra frames lets the queen still find places to lay eggs. The only time the chimney is a problem if they don't get a good flow in the fall, it causes two problems, #1 the brood is higher up and they can't get at the side frames below, #2 you have more bees as the queen may not shut down on her own, and since you haven't filled the frames above with honey, they are light, not a good condition to be in going into winter.


+1. This has been my experience too.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I have a solution to the feeder design, I can place a shallow plastic sheet cake type food container on top of the inner cover inside the 2 1/2" feeder rim or a shallow super box. A smaller sealed container approximately 4" in diameter is glued or siliconed into the center of the larger container directly over the center oval hole in the inner cover, this would complete my feeder. The beauty of this design is that the feeder can be checked and filled without opening the hive so the need to suit up and light up is eliminated, easy peasy, this is the solution I am in need of to lightly feed my bees for 1 to 1 1/2 months during the summer to be ready for the fall flow and the bees should retain their stores for the winter. This way there will be no need for a forced swarm to reduce numbers.


Here is a video from youtube where a guy uses a shallow plastic feeder on top of the hives, however I will centralize the smaller container over the oval inner cover hole. I have a feeling that I can find these containers at a Dollar store or on Ebay for a fairly cheep price . 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKZxCkso1l0


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I'd refer that title question to other Canadian beekeepers. I use 3 deeps, but Southern California sho' aint Ontario!


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

You are quite right kilocharlie, Franks opening questions are more likely answered by Canadian Beekeepers and I am wondering if there are any Canadians besides Frank who are attempting to run a three deep 10 frame hive. It seems that the seasons in the far north wouldn't give long enough flows to support such a hive. I am farther south in southern Ohio and it has now become apparent to me that summer feeding is a must, wildbranch is for sure blessed to have a summer Basswood flow.

I have been struggling for several years now in an attempt to gain a grip on how to operate these three deep hives and I have an idea that if I were to put down roots in Canada I would be starting all over again. I would like to see some input from more Canadians on this topic, mgolden who is from Alberta stated that crystallized honey and pollen just takes up space and isn't ever used and two deeps are adequate for brood and wintering, if this is the norm for Canada then three deeps may not be practical.

I will be following Franks spring time three deep trial to see where it takes him, there is more to three deep Beekeeping than meets the eye.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

M


WWW said:


> You are quite right kilocharlie, Franks opening questions are more likely answered by Canadian Beekeepers and I am wondering if there are any Canadians besides Frank who are attempting to run a three deep 10 frame hive. It seems that the seasons in the far north wouldn't give long enough flows to support such a hive. I am farther south in southern Ohio and it has now become apparent to me that summer feeding is a must, wildbranch is for sure blessed to have a summer Basswood flow.
> 
> I have been struggling for several years now in an attempt to gain a grip on how to operate these three deep hives and I have an idea that if I were to put down roots in Canada I would be starting all over again. I would like to see some input from more Canadians on this topic, mgolden who is from Alberta stated that crystallized honey and pollen just takes up space and isn't ever used and two deeps are adequate for brood and wintering, if this is the norm for Canada then three deeps may not be practical.
> 
> I will be following Franks spring time three deep trial to see where it takes him, there is more to three deep Beekeeping than meets the eye.


I have been following this post with interest. Enjambres is a good beekeeper and I keenly read her posts. Regarding 3 deeps I purchased Beekeeping in Northern Climates from University of Minn. Extension written by Dr. Basil Furgala, Dr. Marla Spivak and Gary Reuter of the Dept. of Entomology. This 3 deep system uses 9 frames and a queen excluder when supering. We did not use an excluder this year and did have brood up into the top super of which there were 5. 
We pulled much honey from this hive without touching any from the deeps. They did fill the outer frames with no problem. We used an early package picked up the end of March for this hive and it boomed. No problems except it was tall and heavy boxes which I don't think I could do myself so my husband did all that. By the time you got to the bottom box during inspection they were pissy. I highly recommend this booklet. It has the complete schedule of when to do what. It gets cold here in this part of NY western Catskills, so I figure this approach is one to try. I like 9 frames, my husband doesn't, so we will finally have his n her hives.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Cloverdale said:


> We did not use an excluder this year and did have brood up into the top super of which there were 5.
> We pulled much honey from this hive without touching any from the deeps. They did fill the outer frames with no problem.


I don't use an excluder in my three deep hives and the queens seem to stay down in the bottom two deeps. To accomplish this I let the colonies have the early Black Locust flow which runs two or three weeks the latter half of April, this flow is heavy and the bees will usually fill the top third deep, this third deep then acts as a barrier to keep the queen in the lower two boxes. With May comes the wildflower flow which runs two months, May and June, When May arrives I check the upper deeps to make sure they are filled and if not I will wait a week or two before supering.

Like you I don't extract from the deeps, and this past spring has been my best harvest yet, approximately 200 pounds from seven production hives, unless I were to micro manage a two deep hive I would not have had this kind of harvest.

This thread that Frank started with the people who have so far contributed has helped me gain a deeper understanding of how to improve on what I have accomplished so far and hopefully in the years to come I will be able to attain an even better harvest.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

WWW said:


> I don't use an excluder in my three deep hives and the queens seem to stay down in the bottom two deeps. To accomplish this I let the colonies have the early Black Locust flow which runs two or three weeks the latter half of April, this flow is heavy and the bees will usually fill the top third deep, this third deep then acts as a barrier to keep the queen in the lower two boxes. With May comes the wildflower flow which runs two months, May and June, When May arrives I check the upper deeps to make sure they are filled and if not I will wait a week or two before supering.
> 
> Like you I don't extract from the deeps, and this past spring has been my best harvest yet, approximately 200 pounds from seven production hives, unless I were to micro manage a two deep hive I would not have had this kind of harvest."
> 
> Because this package was so early I was afraid to use a queen excluder, which I have no experience with anyway. I add supers and pull frames of honey as I go in the Spring and Summer for the yellow honey that is so popular. This year I am determined to try an excluder or use the honey box idea. In Dr Spivaks book she does delve into the second year. She will split the hive and leave the old queen with the two boxes and requeen the one box split. She will use that mother hive for only honey production and build the split into 3 deeps. She will dismantle the mother hive in the Fall,so the split hive will be the mother hive in the following spring where you would do the same thing. This guarantee's young queens and lots of honey.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Cloverdale said:


> In Dr Spivaks book she does delve into the second year. She will split the hive and leave the old queen with the two boxes and requeen the one box split. She will use that mother hive for only honey production and build the split into 3 deeps. She will dismantle the mother hive in the Fall,so the split hive will be the mother hive in the following spring where you would do the same thing. This guarantee's young queens and lots of honey.


This is an interesting concept, one would need the extra boxes and frames to accomplish this type of manipulation which I don't have. For me to requeen I will need to stick with dropping a capped queen cell into the upper deep and see where that takes me. If I were to reduce my hive numbers I could no doubt try this method that Dr Spivak uses but I am not quite ready for that yet, if one gets too many variables going it gets tough to see what is effecting the results of ones manipulations. I could possibly try this Spivak method in a year or two if the results of what I am doing doesn't pan out, at this point having all my hives at full three deep strength in the early spring is my goal to maximize honey production. Thanks for sharing this interesting manipulation :thumbsup:.

I hope your bees winter well and all my best to you in the coming spring .


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Cloverdale said:


> M
> 
> By the time you got to the bottom box during inspection they were pissy.


what are you trying to accomplish by looking at every frame? unless you are trying to find and eliminate the queen, no need to spend that much time in the brood nest(unless you are having fun ), If I want to check on how the queen is doing, I drop down the honey supers and pick up the top deep, if it's heavy(not very descriptive), I drop that down and go for the second box and start pulling frames, if I find eggs, lava, capped brood and a good pattern, I put it all back together and go on to the next hive. 

Marla's part about splitting the 3 deep will work, but if you get a nuc box and make a nuc and requeen it will also work, and you will get more honey out of the parent colony, and you end up with two at the end of the year, but you do have to requeen the mother colony.

if you are going through the hives to find the queen, the weekend b/4 you want to find the queen, have your husband put a queen excluder between all the brood chambers and the two bottom honey supers. the next weekend the box you find the eggs in has the queen and spend your time in there.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> If I want to check on how the queen is doing, I drop down the honey supers and pick up the top deep, if it's heavy(not very descriptive), I drop that down and go for the second box and start pulling frames, if I find eggs, lava, capped brood and a good pattern, I put it all back together and go on to the next hive.


Same here, I rarely need to go deeper than the second box.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

crofter said:


> I have been toying with the idea of going to three deeps for brood boxes and wondering if three deeps really cures any problems that might be more efficiently handled by other means.
> 
> The extra height and less efficient use of wooden ware are often mentioned and that is fairly obvious. Less swarm control problems is debatable perhaps. My interest is earlier buildup in extrem cold short season climate and possibly reduced need for fall feeding.
> 
> ...


Frank, Beekeepers around here are going the opposite way, down to singles. Many winter them indoors but many also wrap them up and winter those singles outdoors. Singles are by far the best option when trying to maximize disease control, utilization of equipment investment and maximizing returns. 

Consider one point when wintering in threes, when that cluster is in the bottom deep, heat rises with the humidity, up through the second and then condensed in the third, to rain down or ice uptop. Too much overhead space is not a good thing in a cold winter climate.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

> The extra height and less efficient use of wooden ware are often mentioned and that is fairly obvious. Less swarm control problems is debatable perhaps. My interest is earlier buildup in extrem cold short season climate and possibly reduced need for fall feeding.


I'm not sure what you mean about less effiecient use of woodenware? Actually "could" make more swarm control problems. These hives come out of winter very strong you need to have your timing mastered for supering. You also need to have lots of supers 5-7 mediums. 



> Will winter survival match what 2 deeps can do? Under varying fall flow conditions can bees sometimes chimney up and cluster high in the boxes leaving a big portion of honey unobtainably below them?


Winter survival is equal to or better than double deeps. If winter survival is your only goal winter in singles if you want. If you want strong colonies that have 18 frames of brood and busting at the seems than go with 3 deeps. Its not about the honey stores. Its great to not have to break out the feeders and set off robbing and break your back. This brings up proper nutrition. Not an issue since you won't usually have to feed. What the big difference is the bottom deep box that you think is empty which in reality is full of pollen. This is natures free pollen patty. This is what will make them 3X's stronger than a double. Why do you think commercial beekeepers in double setup run for there pollen sub its whats missing in the setup. Something to look for when breeding queens is strong pollen hoarding. Bees that really pack that bottom box. Strong 3 deep colonies can and will go down to the bottom box and start brooding for spring so moving down is not an issue with strong bees.



> Honey in the bank is seen as a one time investment but I question the math on that and wonder about crystallization. Would some of that honey not be simply hanging around not getting used. M. Palmer has mentioned backing away from three deeps and going to two deeps and a medium.


This isn't a right or wrong thing of course you could use 2 deeps and a medium or 5 medium boxes. Its the concept not the equipment. I prefer the three deeps because of the flexibility. I also use deeps for my honey supers. If my 3rd deep brood box back fills way to early I rotate down an empty box off the top and move the box up opening up the broodnest.



> Does three deeps or unlimited broods improve survival odds for non intervention slanted management?


15 yrs TF/ small cell/ ULBN management. Tim Ives on 3 deeps and using LC beekeeping: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...9B4DB7CE53561EEC82599B4DB7CE53561E&FORM=VIRE1

Note: Not so keen on Tim's view of small cell beekeeping. Also his comment on mites regressing is not true they don't regress at all. I don't really like to separate small cell vs large cell beekeeping. It's just beekeeping to me. For me the only opinions that count are the ones that come out of the hive.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Ian, when wintering single deeps outdoors, do bee keepers add any supplemental feed beyond feeding syrup in the fall until they stop taking it?

It would be simple to add a 3 1/2 inch candy board on top of the single deep. 3 1/2 will hold some 25 lbs of sugar block. Sugar at 40 cents a pound would only be $10.

I would be inclined to add a small top vent in front side of candy board. Maybe a 1/2 inch round hole.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

No they are taking them right to April without feeding


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Find any of the somewhat older ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture editions had an entry for a "Food box" which was wintering in three deeps or at least two deeps and some other box. It doesn't seem to be in the ones before 1920 or so, but I've seen it in the later ones but not in the most recent ones. Sorry I'm not sure what years I've seen it in, but it was before 1974 and after 1920. I would guess it would be in the ones from the 40s. Sorry I don't have my library handy to look it up.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I am certainly getting some food for thought: there is obviously more than one way of skinning a cat! 

I dont have to make any decisions till swarm time approaches. The two deep setup is giving me good survival and honey production is acceptable but it is just about a given that I have to fall feed as it appears there is not enough flow to raise winter brood and also put up winter stores. I guess there is a reason there are no bees in the trees here or many beekeepers either! I am having fun anyways!


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

MB my ABC and XYZ is from 1959 it has it in there so I'm sure any from the 40's and 50's has it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

.

Tried it, didn't like it.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

OT what didn't you like?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>OT what didn't you like?

Looks like he got too many bees...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

There are plusses and minuses of 3 deep brood nests, for me the plusses did not outweigh the minuses. 

But for some folks 3 deeps will be ideal I just said it wasn't great for me.

Plusses are a "big" hive with no excluder suits a leave alone beekeeping style or even just makes a conventional style less management intensive as swarming is delayed. The other main plus is that a hive wintered in 3 deeps has room to be given a heckuva lot of stores and can therefore in spring build a huge population early.

The minuses for some folks is they will not want a huge population early, for example the honey producers in my area have to work on trying to hold the bees back early to avoid swarming and have the bees peak later when the flow starts.

The other minus for me as a breeder of bees is that I have to find queens in all the hives regularly for taking nucs, packages etc. Searching 2 brood boxes under an excluder is enough, searching 5 or 6 box monsters with no excluders gets tiresome to say the least.

So it's just about each persons particular needs and situation as to what would work.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Clayton Huestis said:


> I'm not sure what you mean about less efficient use of wooden ware?


Common question The question is would you get more honey out of one triple deep, or 3 singles?
I believe the almost unanimous decision is 3 singles.
Some will obviously argue, but when it comes to honey producers, the vast majority run singles. for several reasons. Moving and trucking, and most believe the "odds" with 3 singles produce better than 1 triple.

Not picking a side, just explaining


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

lazybhoney said:


> would you get more honey out of one triple deep, or 3 singles?
> I believe the almost unanimous decision is 3 singles.


Yes that is definitely the case.

Just, hives that need a ladder to get to the top make great pictures and pages of bragging rights.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If a person feeds a 3 deep hive , let's say 6 gallons of feed, I wonder how much of that is left in the spring and gets moved up into the supers in the summer?

I believe, in the spring, that bees respond to one gallon of feed entering the hive differently than one gallon of feed stored from the previous fall. They would be stimulated more by feeding the same gallon in the spring than in the late fall. Therefore, a single with just enough feed in the fall, and fed in the spring, has the potential to be more populace than a triple.

I vote with Ian, single deep brood chamber.

Crazy Roland


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

lazybhoney said:


> Common question The question is would you get more honey out of one triple deep, or 3 singles?
> I believe the almost unanimous decision is 3 singles.
> Some will obviously argue, but when it comes to honey producers, the vast majority run singles. for several reasons. Moving and trucking, and most believe the "odds" with 3 singles produce better than 1 triple.
> 
> Not picking a side, just explaining


Of course you would get more honey from three singles as opposed to three deeps, you are looking at three separate hives with three separate queens producing three times the brood, this is a comparison of apples and oranges and does not relate to a three deep hive, and Commercial Beekeepers have mobility reasons in mind when moving hives, a triple deep is not their first choice . 




Roland said:


> If a person feeds a 3 deep hive , let's say 6 gallons of feed, I wonder how much of that is left in the spring and gets moved up into the supers in the summer?
> 
> I believe, in the spring, that bees respond to one gallon of feed entering the hive differently than one gallon of feed stored from the previous fall. They would be stimulated more by feeding the same gallon in the spring than in the late fall. Therefore, a single with just enough feed in the fall, and fed in the spring, has the potential to be more populace than a triple.
> 
> ...


The seasons and their nectar flows play a large part as to whether one can run a three deep successfully, without adequate flows one will end up feeding at certain times and if one needs to feed a great deal of syrup then three deeps are not a viable option for you. Syrup feed being moved up into the supers during the summer is not an issue if one extracts the spring supers at the end of the spring flow and a properly managed three deep hive shouldn't need feed in the early spring. The difference between a single and a three deep hive is the three deep has brood expansion room in the early spring thus minimizing swarming when the main spring flow comes on. My hives will fill a top deep with Black locust nectar during April and more than a deep of wildflower honey during the main wildflower flow of May and June, there isn't any reason to think that these bees will be moving sugar syrup around in the hive during this time period. A single with just enough feed in the fall, and fed in the spring, having the potential to be more populace than a triple is debatable, I can see the single having the ability to be just as populace as a three deep in the spring however the single would need to be properly managed to do so whereas the triple deep hive can pretty much take care of itself with minimal management. As to whether one wants to keep three deep hives one needs to ask oneself, what are your goals and needs, I work 10 hour days in a major plastics production plant and don't have a lot of free time after working hours so three deeps fit into my minimal hive management program quite well, you on the other hand vote with Ian for single brood chambers and I am sure there are myriads of reasons why you would, but it is your choice. .


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

crofter said:


> I am certainly getting some food for thought: there is obviously more than one way of skinning a cat!


that's the part that makes bee keeping fun, find what works for you over a number of years, and keep trying different stuff every year because things do change and good luck.:thumbsup:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Bill, is three deep boxes all it takes to advert swarming? Take 15-20 frames of bees, holding 6 nice capped brood frames, mid spring during a Dandelion bloom , what is your next move?


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Ian said:


> Bill, is three deep boxes all it takes to advert swarming? Take 15-20 frames of bees, holding 6 nice capped brood frames, mid spring during a Dandelion bloom , what is your next move?


Three deeps is all it takes to minimize swarming here where I live, over the last two years I have only seen one swarm and it was a false swarm that went back into the hive. I used to run two deep hives and come May each year there seemed to be more bees in the trees than in my hives and honey harvest really suffered.

I don't understand what you are saying or asking about the 15-20 frames during a Dandelion bloom? My next move this coming year is to lightly feed the hives through the 1 1/2 months of summer instead of feeding depleted hives in the fall, I want to harvest the Goldenrod honey, I have customers asking for it. 

I have gained a fuller understanding of these three deep hives and what it takes to run them successfully, my goal is to start a queen breeding program, (some of my older queens have become somewhat lazy) and apply what I have learned to maximize my yearly harvest .


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

"I don't understand what you are saying or asking about the 15-20 frames during a Dandelion bloom? My next move this coming year is to lightly feed the hives through the 1 1/2 months of summer instead of feeding depleted hives in the fall, I want to harvest the Goldenrod honey, I have customers asking for it"

Its tough to compare a no flow bee op vs a moderate flow or a heavy flow bee op. 

I would expect if you managed your nest according to the queen's laying habits, you'd manage two deeps with less swarming and gather more honey, with very little work.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

errors, I must redo this post


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Ian said:


> Its impossible to compare a no flow bee op vs a moderate flow or a heavy flow bee op.
> 
> I would expect if you managed your nest according to the queen's laying habits, you'd manage two deeps with less swarming and gather more honey, with very little work.


Ian, I don't follow you about it being impossible to compare flow op, if a person has their hives set up to where they know that the hives are performing at their peak vs hives that are sub par isn't that what really counts for honey production, that is if there is a good flow at the time. You may well be speaking in terms that I am not familiar with, I suppose if I were to explain machine shop operations to you it would no doubt be a bit confusing as well.`

Could you go into some detail as to how two manage the queens laying habit's to prevent swarming and gather more honey with very little work, I am all ears , if I follow you correctly I think you are speaking of removing brood from the hive, bear in mind that I don't have extra equipment to work with, just what is on the hives and I am not interested in selling bees. I certainly don't claim to be an expert in the beekeeping field and I am always open to suggestions. I realize you and the other commercial Beekeepers do things a bit different than a guy with a few hives in the backyard and for good reason, I just want you to know that I am not closed minded to learning from all of you if you are willing to share your knowledge, I may not be able to apply some things to my situation but I am open to learning all the same .


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

You have to ask yourself, what is the queen going to need at certain times of the year. 
If your hive is counting 15-20 frames of bees and about to hatch out 6 frames of brood mid May, while packing in dandelion, chances are no matter how many boxes you add, those bees will be in the trees. Pull some brood.
Mid to late summer, your queen is only going to need 10 or less frames to lay in, so the question is why keep her in three boxes? I cut her down to one, but in your case two brood is more than enough. Take the surplus over the nest as harvest, feed a bit late September to back fill for winter. It involves little hive work .


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Ian said:


> You have to ask yourself, what is the queen going to need at certain times of the year.
> If your hive is counting 15-20 frames of bees and about to hatch out 6 frames of brood mid May, while packing in dandelion, chances are no matter how many boxes you add, those bees will be in the trees. Pull some brood.
> Mid to late summer, your queen is only going to need 10 or less frames to lay in, so the question is why keep her in three boxes? I cut her down to one, but in your case two brood is more than enough. Take the surplus over the nest as harvest, feed a bit late September to back fill for winter. It involves little hive work .


I follow your train of thought now, pulling brood is an option that I overlooked, if I went the route of two deep hives I would need to cull a certain number of brood combs and have the bees start over rebuilding new comb during the spring flow; but wouldn't this be counterproductive to honey production?. I will need to give this some further consideration. With my decision to lightly feed for the 1 1/2 months of dry summer, increase in summer brooding may be the result and could lead me to again change my strategy but for now this is something I wish to explore. The reason I want to keep the third deep capped with honey over the summer is to avoid fall feeding which will give me the opportunity to harvest the fall goldenrod, it's a trade off. I know that I am leaving money on the table by letting the bees keep the deep of spring honey but at this point in time I want to see where this path leads me.

I do understand your reasoning but for the time being I will continue with the three deep program that I have in place and see where it leads me, only time will tell, thanks for your suggestions I will keep them under consideration as I forge ahead .


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

So the three deep is about food storage rather than big populous nest and swarm control then? If that's the case then your on the right track.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

What weights do you guys running three deeps target for wintering?

I see that enjambres is targeting 150# for hers. Anyone else with a number?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jw; I have no real feel for how much it _should_ be but the first hive I am trying as a three deep weighed 160 lbs when I closed it up. That is 30 lbs more (gross) than my double deeps have been. It probably is not a great deal more actual honey weight when the extra box and 10 frames is deducted. It would be nice if I could weigh the different setups as the winter progresses but that would not be easy the way they are wrapped. Just have to wait for April and see what is in the boxes!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I have a couple three deeps at 135-145# (basically 120# double + weight of the new box and frames), seem a tad light so added about 10-12# of sugar bricks on top for the time being. One colony is "new" swarm from a colony living in a church. The other is going into winter number two. Last year they didn't use squat for honey all winter long, cluster sat on the bottom board and didn't move an inch from what I could tell. This year the cluster is much bigger (was in a single + medium last year). But both are at the inner cover or quilt box. In fact the one had probably a basketball's worth of bees hanging from the window screen bottom of the quilt box. I should have taken a picture. It makes me nervous being so high, but the bottom of the cluster is near the bottom of the middle box, so they have to be on honey. They're nice and tight not spread out like they're desperately looking for food. Capped honey in the top box as best I can tell... just strange they are high so I added sugar to both.





Pics at the top box. 3" shim on one and the one with the inner cover in pic now has the quilt box.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

These are pics from today, run a few thousand over winter this way in thriples.
http://s148.photobucket.com/user/CNHoney/media/P1010247_zpszup3on9o.jpg.html?o=0
http://s148.photobucket.com/user/CNHoney/media/P1010248_zpsmqqg18s2.jpg.html?o=1


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

Keith, that's an impressive picture to a little 10-hive hobbyist. 
What configuration do you move?
What led you to 3 deeps?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> These are pics from today, run a few thousand over winter this way in thriples.
> http://s148.photobucket.com/user/CNHoney/media/P1010247_zpszup3on9o.jpg.html?o=0
> http://s148.photobucket.com/user/CNHoney/media/P1010248_zpsmqqg18s2.jpg.html?o=1


Are you going to knock them down into two for pollination?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Careful Keith, no ELAP money available when your bees look like that. 
:bus. (I just like using the bus in any post about Keith)


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Ian said:


> So the three deep is about food storage rather than big populous nest and swarm control then? If that's the case then your on the right track.



Ian,
These three deep hives are for a big populous nest as well as swarm control and yes the third deep is for winter food storage, in the early spring there is expansion room for the bigger populations and more room for early honey storage which also helps with swarm control. Since I am a stationary beekeeper these big hives provide large numbers of foragers to gather available nectar during my relatively short flows. 

In short the three deeps provide an expansion chamber in early spring to help prevent overcrowding which triggers swarming and the third deep contains the winter stores gathered in April which is carried through the rest of the year, the following winter, and well into early spring. The honey gathered into the third deep in April also acts as a barrier to help keep the queen out of the supers which are put into place the beginning of May for the Wildflower flow.


jw
150 is a good going into winter weight for three deeps however I have had them close to 200, anywhere between those weights is good.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

WWW wrote:

if I follow you correctly I think you are speaking of removing brood from the hive, bear in mind that I don't have extra equipment to work with,

But you do!!!! If you ran a single deep and rotated empty comb in to keep the queen busy, you would have extra equipment, and usually more bees. In the spring, it is optimal to have the bees at the top of the hive, and only add above when the cluster has broken. 

I understand your choice of low time investment, but comprehend that your rewards will be predicated by your time investment.

Crazy Roland


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## Cullz (Jun 30, 2010)

I am keenly following this thread as I too am experimenting with large hives. 

My situation is a little different as here in Australia (I am near the QLD / NSW border) the bees continue to raise brood and gather some stores all winter. It doesn't really get below freezing. The seasons and flowering times can vary a lot, and rainfall is a huge factor.

Commercial beekeepers here seem to run single deeps for brood nest. Hobby beekeepers seem to run one or two deeps. They mostly use queen excluders.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Roland said:


> WWW wrote:
> 
> if I follow you correctly I think you are speaking of removing brood from the hive, bear in mind that I don't have extra equipment to work with,
> 
> ...


lead a horse to water,

I use to run doubles, inside too, my theory was more space larger hive=more production. As the year cycled I found singles went in 1/3 the size of my doubles, but both came out the same size. I managed both arrangements exactly the same in the spring for swarm control. My experience maybe regional... but I keep hearing "I add space for swarm control". Well ya... Lesson #1, but around here swarm control extends further than "add another box". Pull some brood, manage that queen. 

Maybe the answers lies the exact opposite direction. Instead of looking three brood box I'm looking 5 frames... to pull in those 5 production boxes


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Ian,
I must say that the way you and Roland run your hives is very different and interesting to me, more of a hands on approach if you will, if I am comprehending this correctly you both operate a little differently but the crux of the single or double brood nest is to remove brood to throttle the hive back and rotate brood up to accelerate the hive growth. I do find your methods intriguing and will need to give this way of operating a go one of these days soon. 

I suppose that our methods do seem to be at the opposite ends of the spectrum, a hands on approach as apposed to more of a limited hands on approach. You guys have given me a lot to think about and I really appreciate you taking the time to explain to me how you operate, I will give it serious consideration.

I do think that Frank could really benefit from a single brood nest approach since the seasons are shorter at his far North location .


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

WWW said:


> Ian
> 
> I suppose that our methods do seem to be at the opposite ends of the spectrum, a hands on approach as apposed to more of a limited hands on approach.


I know of a guy here that run a thousand hives up into three into the spring, harvested the thirds off the few select hives which built up as such. Fed to create a rim over the second deep brood nest to keep the queen down, then supered. A no excluder no brood work strategy. 
But that method has been put on the shelf. Mite control is job #1, you will find better efficacy with mite treatments when you can confine the nest during treatment. That way those little bastards can't avoid treatment


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Ian said:


> lead a horse to water,
> 
> I use to run doubles, inside too, my theory was more space larger hive=more production. As the year cycled I found singles went in 1/3 the size of my doubles, but both came out the same size.



Seems to me this is the money shot. Going into winter with 3 deeps (or any setup) may be the issue. With Ians and others the winter die off is such that its not worth the extra space.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

lazybhoney said:


> Seems to me this is the money shot. Going into winter with 3 deeps (or any setup) may be the issue. With Ians and others the winter die off is such that its not worth the extra space.


With honey producers , this fact becomes a no brainer. Take that extra box or two of back filled honey later in the summer; 50lbs plus taking that third, perhaps more if taking it down to a single adds up to a lot of money over 1000 hives. Quick math, $100G, added syrup bill of $20G at most.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Guys; thanks for sticking in through the contradictions that three deeps seems to present. There are things about the concept that I thought would ease some of my concerns but then I see that perhaps they could also be handled other ways. I like toying with different concepts but with usually 6 or 7 hives it is very easy to have some incidental influences throw my conclusions way off.

Someone running hundreds of hives sure gets a bigger picture of cause and effect.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Crofter, its a great conversation. one key to beekeeping is understanding your goals and plans and then comparing. most methods work, but the one that fits your operation may be different.

I haven't talked to Tim in better than a year, but I would guess with the expansion plans he had under way he may be rethinking a bit. Stacking and unstacking tripples on a large scale with ladders is a big job. 
But if that makes you a happy healthy hive and you like it, no worries!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

I will try to answer each question, I don't know how to quote each one here, bus has ran over my melon too many times . I like to over winter three deeps for...... two seems for pollen sub, easy to shake bees before almonds $$$, easy to make up increase before almonds $$$$. Everything we do is geared toward almonds, almonds for us is the cash cow. The bees right now avg 20-22 frames of bees, this makes it easy & fast to get done what's needed in the bee yard, we avg one man per 1500 hives @ full time basis.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

We're going to have to get you a helmet, Keith.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Ian said:


> Mite control is job #1, you will find better efficacy with mite treatments when you can confine the nest during treatment.


:thumbsup:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Now Kieth, be honest, do you really have a winter?

Your situation is quite different, and yes, 3 deeps may be best for your location.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> I like to over winter three deeps for...... The bees right now avg 20-22 frames of bees, .


...building into three deeps through winter, I hope my bees make it through winter...


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Roland said:


> 3 deeps may be best for your location.Crazy Roland


Hey Crazy, three deeps is good when there going to be short in the almonds.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Yup, for you, the more bees the better. 

I am not sure that you have a right to use the word "Winter" until you go up by Ian in January. You would use the word with a bit more respect then.


Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Roland said:


> Yup, for you, the more bees the better.
> 
> I am not sure that you have a right to use the word "Winter" until you go up by Ian in January. You would use the word with a bit more respect then.
> 
> ...


...I know he would use the word $%&#, then the phrase, "why would you live here?"...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Any thoughts on reversing in a three deep? Or maybe pulling bottom deep up and placing it between the top and middle? Basically flipping the bottom two boxes.
In the spring, I mean.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

JW, I have been thinking about that for the hive I ran up to three deeps for the winter. Judging by my doubles in April the broodnest will probably straddle the top two boxes so to avoid splitting the nest, I foresee simply bringing the bottom box which should be empty of brood but heavy in pollen, up to the top. Top boxes will drop down together.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

crofter said:


> JW, I have been thinking about that for the hive I ran up to three deeps for the winter. Judging by my doubles in April the broodnest will probably straddle the top two boxes so to avoid splitting the nest, I foresee simply bringing the bottom box which should be empty of brood but heavy in pollen, up to the top. Top boxes will drop down together.


if you want to spend the time, you can arrange it like the bees like, especially if you get a winter like this year so far, take the honey that's on top and move it to the sides and let the bees have the middle. One thing I have run into if you don't move the outside frames back into the middle, because they don't necessarily get to them for a few years, they aren't usable so move them in where they will use up the honey.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Wildbranch; good points on managing remaining honey. Probably even more likely need on three deep hives. I have been pulling out and freezing frames even on doubles, every spring and use later in nucs. Moving them in close to brood nest would get them used up as the nest expands in spring. Would you scratch off cappings on those frames?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Reversing... Another reason not to manage multiple deep brood, oh my aching back! If you had spent a week reversing boxes you feel the term 'reversing' every time you hear it


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Ian said:


> Reversing... Another reason not to manage multiple deep brood, oh my aching back! If you had spent a week reversing boxes you feel the term 'reversing' every time you hear it


Michael Palmer seems to make short work out of it without too much fuss/heavy lifting. And he's twice as old as me and has about 200x more colonies.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jwcarlson said:


> Michael Palmer seems to make short work out of it without too much fuss/heavy lifting. And he's twice as old as me and has about 200x more colonies.


Yup, does his wife call it , without too much fuss  
Joking aside, it's not too much work until your 5 yards deep with 25 yards ahead


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Maybe I'm the oddball here but I tend not to reverse any hive bodies. If I'm moving boxes it's always due to splitting or split preparations or inspections . I've found that the bees always work their way back down into the hive and by early/mid season the brood nest is almost always where it should be (according to me anyway). The only time I get brood in a honey super is in the spring and the queen and bees have always moved down before I may need to move the super or before it gets used as honey storage again. But not reversing does tend to produce a chimney effect of brood. If I need a super all I usually do is swap out any frames with brood on them down and move empty frames up and the box gets removed. I've been using predominantly all 8 frame deeps.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

When adding seconds during the spring, some cool years I have to add under the brood so that the nest does not experience a "cold shock" as a box of space suddenly appears overhead. If cool weather prevails immediately after adding the second, the hive has trouble adjusting and this causes stress and chalk brood. 
During these years I add the space underneath,... And these are the years my crew really complains.  lift the box once over the empty, then reverse as the main flow hits. My guys earn their keep those two weeks.


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## bbvineyardapiary (Jan 21, 2016)

crofter, Following your posts and it came to mind that there is an informed source on the use Three Deep Hives from the University of Minnesota. The bee keeper education for bees in northern climates outlines and promotes three deeps as a proven method bee keepers. The following link, https://www.beelab.umn.edu/education/beekeeping-manuals shows where you can purchase published manuals and additional information from their bee lab. The manuals outline buildout schedules for adding brood boxes, hive rotation, frame management, ventilation and wintering preparation.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I'm successfully wintering outdoors in a single Langstroth deep here in north Alabama. This would not work with most Italian strains. Swarming is one reason I am currently converting to 11 5/8 deep square hive bodies and supers. I'm fairly sure I can manage swarming easier in a single large deep hive body.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hmm not so sure about that. I have worked for a place that used a similar brood box, known locally as "jumbos". Having come from a standard 2 deep brood box background, I found I was continuously frustrated during swarm control season with jumbos, because of a lack of ability to move brood down and give the queen room overhead. 

Having said that, it would have to be better than just one standard deep.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I set one colony up as three deeps last summer. I think I wrapped it up fed to ~ 160 lbs.; will see how it does next season compared to double deeps. Perhaps local flow conditions and temperatures have a very big influence on inclination to swarm. So far am not having a big problem with swarming but then perhaps that is because I am not doing everything I could to manage best for honey production.

The University of Minnesota's management system seems a combination of overwintering some colonies with young queens and shaking out others with old queens and taking all the honey. I have not looked recently to see if that is still commonly practiced by many keeps. 

Perhaps a bit less efficient method, but using a few more colonies, could get similar net result with less work and anxiety. That likely describes my inclinations. When it is hot and a lot hives to go through, I get to thinking I want fewer colonies but in the winter with lots of time to ponder, I think of having more hives and experimenting with lots of things! Fun!


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