# Orangic Beekeeping



## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

I don't get bee culture anymore, but it's great that keeping bees without the use of chemicals is getting more attention nowadays. I know that the ability to go without treatments in honeybee colonies is highly correlated with well selected healthy honeybee stock, so you must be making good breeding decisions in your efforts to develop such an excellent bee that is able to achieve that. Keep up the good work!


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Don,

I can assure you, that you and others doing the same thing, are doing something that myself and many other beginners are trying to emulate.
I'm not there yet, but I'm trying
thanks for showing us it can be done

Dave

[ August 07, 2006, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

fat/beeman--I am with you a hundred percent on trying to achieve zero chemical use on our hives! Keep up the good work!


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## Matt NY (Jan 14, 2006)

I read that story a few times and I am very interested. I am new to bees and I am trying to figure what makes sense and what types of thought go along with certain actions.

Thanks,
Matt


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## buz (Dec 8, 2005)

Thnx Don. The nuc you sent me has turned into a two box colony. I've only used Lemon Grass and Wintergreen oils in sugar water. I think the small cell helps too.
Happy,


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## summersetretrievers (Mar 4, 2006)

I got 2 nucs from Don this year of small cell bee's. We are new beekeepers and had read about small cell as a way to prevent mites. One hive was NWC and one had a NWC X Russian queen. We have looked all season and not found a single mite. Bee's are strong and healthy!! I am sold on small cell and our mentor here who has only done the large cell is impressed and talking of switching over his hives to small cell.
Cindy


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I liked the artical.....

I do think it is important to find a schedule the works for you in treatment and make sure you know what you can and cant do when the supers are on.

I do think organic treatment is the way to go and cheaper then chemicals to boot.

I would like to learn more about what other people are doing that is chemical free.


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## ekrouse (Aug 26, 2004)

I've never treated since getting back into beekeeping 4 years ago. Started 4 hives from packages of Carniolans. Hives have screened bottom boards. All hives had mites by mid-summer of the first year (mites visable on workers and capped drone brood).

I always intended on treating, even though I preferred not to, but never could figure out which chemical treatment to use. Some chemicals were supposed to be losing their effect while others seemed too toxic.

The first year I tried using Pierco drone foundation as a mite trap, but left the frames in the hives a leeeetle too long... and about half the drones were out by the time I came back. That gave me lots of drones and lots of mites.

That fall I lost one hive to a cow with an itch and late winter I lost another hive. May have been mites, but it looked like they starved (even though they had lots of honey). We had an extended deep freeze. Many bees stuck head first into cells.

The next spring I replaced the two lost hives with nucs from a local beekeeper using Kona Queen Carniolans. Haven't lost a hive since.

My methods are simple: in the fall I use powdered sugar. The rest of the year I use sumac seed pods in my smoker based on posts I read here at Beesource.com. The sumac produces a thick cool smoke. I just build a wood fire in the smoker using chunks of hardwood (mostly maple, some oak and apple) then just put one sumac pod on the top.

I've switched to all medium boxes and now use pierco 1-piece frames in the brood boxes (I use a mix of pierco and foundationless frames in the honey supers). I use SBB's and leave plenty of ventillation during the winter.

I don't know what is working, but as long as I don't lose hives and don't need chemicals I'll keep doing it.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

<I don't know what is working, but as long as I don't lose hives and don't need chemicals I'll keep doing it.> My sentiments exactly. No chemicals here, but FGMO. I've read that the brackish water in the sound across the street might also have something to do with it. Apparently brackish water builds up the bee's immune system. Whatever. I've been a beek 5 yrs now and haven't lost any hives to varroa (knock wood).


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## gingerbee (Jul 22, 2006)

Where do you sprinkle the powdeded sugar for mites? How about the garlic, how is it used?

Thanks for the help!


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

gingerbee:

This is a trick that i picked up from another beekeeper. It is parts powdered sugar and 1 part garlic powder. Mix together and spinkle on top of the brood chamber frames. Brush off the rest that are on the top bar. It helps if you have a SBB. You can do this anytime if the year. 


I have been thinking of getting a fogger. how does it work? is it electric or gas?


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## gingerbee (Jul 22, 2006)

Isaac,

Thanks so much for the help.

One part powdered sugar to one part garlic powder? Applied how often?

And I'm sort of a newbie... what is SBB?

Also, the idea of a fogger and vinegar seems like a good idea, from what I've read. 

Would also like to know from others about foggers. Anyone tried this or read about it?


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Gingerbee . . .

>what is SBB?

Screened Bottom Board (SBB) replaces standard (solid) bottom board. The screen allows you to easily monitor Varroa mite population and also provides lots of ventilation. 

>like to know from others about foggers . . .

Try a search here on BeeSouce, just click "search" at top of this page.

There are lots of "past posters" that have not acheived good results, but may report excellent results. If you want my "2 cents worth", just send me a "Private Mail".


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## gingerbee (Jul 22, 2006)

Googling on vinegar and tracheal mites, I came across this article. The writer may be a bit eccentric, but the idea of 'clean bees' is interesting. 

http://www.tnbeekeepers.org/pubs/Are%2520Chemicals%2520Past%2520History_.pdf


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## gingerbee (Jul 22, 2006)

Also, in the article below is a breakdown of the percentage of formic acid used to control mites, and how it's applied.

I'm not suggesting this, only wondering, if vinegar instaed of formic acid was used, and the amount and application followed the formula discussed here, would the benefical result be the same? 

http://www.pmra-arla.gc.ca/english/pdf/reg/reg_c9405-e.pdf


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## gingerbee (Jul 22, 2006)

Also from googling:

Vinegar= impure dilute acetic acid. 

Most commercial vinegar is labeled as 5% acetic acid. 

The chemical formula for acetic acid is CH3COOH where each C stands for a carbon atom, each H stands for a hydrogen atom and each O stands for oxygen atom.

Formic acid= called methanoic acid, the simplest carboxylic acid.

The chemical formula for formic acid is CH2O2 or HCOOH.


A problem in using vinegar may be that the acid is too diluted. If you had an acetic acid that was 100% then maybe you could dilute it to 65% and have the same results?

But as it's diluted, trying it may not hurt the bees and may result in an elimination or decrease in mites?

I don't know, but it seems worth considering. I'm going to post the question on some chemistry boards and see what the response is. I'll let you know.

Thanks for all the responses and the help,

Ginger


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Just because its an organic treatment, doesnt mean there is an acceptable tolerance of that substance in your honey. 

They must be used with the exact same care as of using chemical treatments in the hive.


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

GINGER; check out www.countryrubes.com for complete how to dust with powered sugar. They do a really good job explaining the process.
Welcome to the chemical free idea of beekeeping, altought careful with them trem 'organic' ALOT of people will try and argue that point.
I just prefer to say that no chemicals, that I know of, is in my honey


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>'organic' ALOT of people will try and argue that point.

Organic farming goes alot further than just not using chemicals to produce the food.


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

Hey, to me organic is organic I'm not arguing the point.
I don't feel it is fair, though, that you have to pay to be certified organic and that it costs more to buy.


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## ekrouse (Aug 26, 2004)

Tia,

The first year I used the powdered sugar I tried using a "garden duster" but found it took a lot of time to apply. After that I used the method posted here on beesource.com. Basically sprinkle about 1 cup of powdered sugar on top of the brood chamber, then use a bee brush back an forth to spread it so that it drops between frames. You must use a screened bottom board (SBB) so that the excess sugar and mites fall out of the hive.


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## ekrouse (Aug 26, 2004)

Tia,

The first year I used the powdered sugar I tried using a "garden duster" but found it took a lot of time to apply. After that I used the method posted here on beesource.com. Basically sprinkle about 1 cup of powdered sugar on top of the brood chamber, then use a bee brush back an forth to spread it so that it drops between frames. You must use a screened bottom board (SBB) so that the excess sugar and mites fall out of the hive.


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## summersetretrievers (Mar 4, 2006)

The only thing we have done with our bee's is to have screened bottom boards and use the small cell 4.9 foundation. We use nothing else and there no mites. Can't say enough wonderful stuff about Don's bee's. Doesn't hurt that we bought 5 frame nucs and started out right away with small cell bee's on small cell foundation.
Our mentor has looked and found no mites so it is not just us being inexperienced looking for mites. It seems to me using that other stuff, mineral oil, vinegar isn't really organic after all.
Cindy


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

cindy:

And how do you come to the conclusion that the mineral oil and vinegar is not organic? We are talking versus apistan..check mite, etc.???


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I think the whole "organic" conversation gets lost in definition. Some say that without chemicals they are organic, some say they will not pay to be certified, some say that anything "natural" placed in the hive maintains "organic" status, and so on.

By definition, at least from what I have read, organic means that anything placed into a hive must also come from organic sources. If you feed bees, organic sugar or feed must be used. There is also a list of approved natural substances that may be used but they are limited and certainly some of the items mentioned here in this thread does not qualify.

In Pennsylnavia, being organic means your entire operation has been certified. Land use studies and operating procedures are scrutinized. Chemical use within the flight range of your bees, even from the neighboring farmer will disqualify you from certification. 

I am not a proponent of being certified organic. I beleive the requirments are unrealistic and have been complicated by money and politics. But I also know if your caught using the term "organic" and not certified, your product will be confiscated and you will be fined.

I do not use chemicals. Does that mean I should label my honey "organic" in attempts to further market my product? Does that leave me open to litigation from a consumer after the fact? What if a customer has a reaction to some unknown compound in my honey I was not aware, based on the consumer buying my product assuming I had filled all "organic" requirments?

I stay away from the "organic" part until the requirments are changed to make it worth my efforts. In the mean time, "local", "natural" and a host of other ways of labeling honey is quite sufficient to have happy customers, without opening myself up to possible problems.


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

Check out article on page 25 of BC on buckshot brood. He mentions a garlic and powder sugar treatment. Also mentions queen loss in some cases.
While you are there be sure and read Don's (fat/beeman) article on organic beekeeping!!!


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--->
I think the whole "organic" conversation gets lost in definition.
--->

You got that right! I cant use the term organic to describe my honey because I use NO TREATMENTS what so ever, and organic rules allow food grade pesticides and acid pesticides for treating colonies.

I was going to use the term biological honey, but I understand that there are biological pesticides such as BT and Sumac that are called biological controls.

So I wont use the names Organic or biological because they permit pesticides in the colonies. And they are too closely associated with pesticide usage for me to be comfortable with using the name. 

But I did manage to find a name that describes my beekeeping style the closest.

Ecological Beekeeping describes my style of keeping bees the best! 

http://www.thiele-und-thiele-consult.de/zentrum/index_us.html 

Hopefully, this word will never be contaminated or associated with pesticide usage. I even reserved the name Ecological Beekeeping in the yahoo groups to protect the name from corruption.

[ August 22, 2006, 06:07 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

I've just powder-sugared my bees with no SBB. Just slid a piece of white poster board in there and slid it out again. So it is possible, but not as good as having a SBB.

That being said, I am considering buying one of Brushy Mountain's "Guy's Screens," which you use by turning your existing bottom board backwards and putting this screened one on top. Anyone have any experience with these?

Also, in northern climates, do you have to block off the entrance to the area below the screen to prevent freezing?


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

The cold will not hurt the bees, a strong colony handles opened screen floors just during winter.

I dont know how these "Guy's Screens," are configured, but if there is an opening below the screen that bees can enter, you may need to block it or screen it off to prevent bees from being confused and returning below the screen which may trap them from re-entering the broodnest area during winter cleansing flights.


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

Guy's Screen info:
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/products.asp?pcode=471

The open entrance is in the back, which allows you ready access to a sticky board or tray without disturbing the hive. I guess a properly sized piece of wood would be prudent to keep other critters out, also.


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## Donna Marie Honeybee by the Sea (Jun 29, 2005)

Pcolar, may I ask how do you prevent wax moths in your stored honey supers? 

Thanks Donna Marie


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## beegee (Jun 3, 2003)

After many years in the commercial hog business, I see some of the same problems with medications in bees as we had in hogs: Resistance and residues. 

By constantly treating our bees with Checkmite, Apistan, etc, we breed tougher mites and weaker bees.

I have resisted using chemicals in my hives. If the weaker ones die out, I concentrate on keeping the stronger hives alive and healthy. I really don't like the idea that our extension service and agriculture departments have traditionally advocated fixing problems(from alfalfa weevils to hog lice) with stronger chemicals as treatment of choice. 

IPM is a lot more work, but I think the advantages are worth it. I'm hoping Jerry Hayes and his buddies in Florida soon come up with a safe reliable treatment for small hive beetle. They were working on a lure to trap beetles away from the hive.


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## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

I just checked the Beeworks site and they said that they are temporarily out of stock. But that is what I use with good results. I'm told that once you spray it on the drawn comb, you never have to reapply. Certan

Here's some more good info 
wax moth info


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I believe that you will find that "Organicbeekeepers.com" maintain that if it isn't "naturally" found in a beehive then any treatment is forbidden, i.e. not organic.

What's the USDA definition of "Organic Honey"?
Is there one? I don't think so.

Certifying the range of bee flight as organic is the problem that Organic Certification Organizations have.

Didn't ABJ have an announcement about Dutch Gold's Organic Honey from Argentina or Venezuala? When was that article? Anyone remember?

Slightly off topic. I saw some Dawes Hill Honey, from Once Again Nut Butters, in a grocery store last week. It was labeled as "RAW". I was impressed to see that this honey labeled RAW, having come from Basswood, Locust and Goldenrod nectar sources was still liquid. I wonder how they do that. Do they heat their honey to 100 degrees farenheit? So it's still raw?


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## Donna Marie Honeybee by the Sea (Jun 29, 2005)

Hi Ken, I used certan last year to store my extra supers, my question to Pcolar was in light of the ecological beekeeping goal.

I went to the link Pcolar provided, and the criteria for claiming ecological beekeeping seemed to preclude the use of Certan, so I was wondering how to do it without the use of Certan. 
I love the idea of moving to more natural beekeeping, which is why I have gone to small cell and only used powder sugar and now FGMO as a mite control until my colonies are fully regressed.

So again is Certan considered an acceptable wax moth treatment in ecological beekeeping?

Thanks Donna Marie


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>...."Organicbeekeepers.com" maintain that if it isn't "naturally" found in a beehive then any treatment is forbidden....

I couldn't find a site for Organicbeekeepers.com. Is the reference for the Yahoo beekeeper's group? If so, then I don't think a few beekeepers all having the same agenda are qualified to define what a word or phrase means.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Is the reference for the Yahoo beekeeper's group? 

Dunno, but sounds like a reasonable guess.

> If so, then I don't think a few beekeepers all having the same 
> agenda are qualified to define what a word or phrase means.

More to the point, the USDA has (at least in the USofA) has
clearly defined what is and what is not "organic", and has, in essence,
prohibited the use of the term in the context of agriculture,
unless the person using the term follows the practices approved
by the USDA National Organic Program.

From another angle, the dogma of a few cannot define 
standards for the group as a whole. Any approach that,
in essence, forces one to stand by and watch 90% of one's
hives die off cannot be taken seriously by beekeepers who
have commitments to keep, bills to pay, and creditors to
satisfy.

[ August 22, 2006, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Jim Fischer ]


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

My $.02: I am all for being as natural and chemical-free as possible, but as soon as you put a colony in a box, you have created an artificial environment and have some responsibility for remedying any problems that may arise.


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## beegee (Jun 3, 2003)

Hobie, is this to assume that bees that choose to hive up in hollow trees or walls of houses are not susceptible to AFB, SHB, Varroa Destructor and acarapis woodii?


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

Oh, no, no, no. They are, sadly. 

Not to say that the supers "cause" parasites and diseases, but do they have NO effect? I don't know. I guess what I am trying to say is that, if I am "keeping" bees, and benefiting from their labor, I, personally, would have a hard time ignoring a mite infestation (or the like), especially if my colony might swarm and spread the disease/parasites further. Perhaps even into the wild colonies, and that is not fair to them.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Hobie,

I see, the bees will use the entrance in the guy screen and you turn around your bottomboard so that the entrance is in the back.

This should work fine.

One thing that you need to remember Hobie. If you turn your bottomboard to the back side, you will then have to tilt your hives so that moisture will run out the back also.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

---->
I believe that you will find that "Organicbeekeepers.com" maintain that if it isn't "naturally" found in a beehive then any treatment is forbidden, i.e. not organic.
----->

Then POISONS are organic under these terms then?

The picrotoxin, tutin found naturally in honey as a product of bees feeding on honeydew from tutu bushes New Zealand, and highly toxic to humans would be organic????

Greyanotoxin, toxic to humans and found naturally in honey made from rhododendrons would be organic then also???


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

---->
Pcolar, may I ask how do you prevent wax moths in your stored honey supers?
---->

The best thing to do is store your supers in a place where waxmoth cannot easily get to them. I store supers in a cool place inside a shed and screen off the tops and bottoms in each stack to keep the waxmoth out with screen or nylon mesh. This keeps the waxmoth from accessing interior parts and forces them to lay eggs on the screen where they can be discovered more easily. Above 70 F the waxworm may hatch in about 5 to 7 days below 60 F, it takes 35 days for waxworm to hatch. So I would inspect them every 2 weeks during temps above 70F. And below 60F I may check them once a month. Any small patches of wax worm can simply be scraped off when they are spotted and removed to a super where you can isolate them and keep an eye out for more. Look for hatching worms along cracks between the hivebodys also, and on comb.

Moths prefer comb that had brood or pollen in them. So any dark combs I may separate them from the clean combs so I can inspect them more closely. Or sometimes I will space them out with clean combs inbetween to isolate them to slow the waxworm


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

-->
Any approach that, in essence, forces one to stand by and watch 90% of one's
hives die off cannot be taken seriously
-->

Actually, I lost 100% several times.









But persistence in collecting ferals and very heavy selective pressure has me loosing under 20% each winter,,, and no treatments! 

Where do we say that you need to do this to 100% of your colonies?
Any commercial beekeeper can afford to do maybe 10 to 20 percent per season. Then by your math the beekeeper needs only to stand by and watch between 9 and 10 percent of his colonies "die off".









But I am serious, you can do it piecemeal and not suffer a catastrophic loss.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Is there a nectar flow of any sort where you are?

Power Napper, 
Japanese Knotweed is blooming, the bees go crazy over this bloom like they do to Devils Walkingstick. 

Its pretty dry, my house is being robbed, or should I say mobbed by bees. Im extracting in the garage and hundreds of bees are hording all over the door and finding their way inside! I decided to last night to move my entire home apiary to an outyard to stop the robbing. But when I got home from work today, there were hundreds more, maybe thousands inside and outside!

I watched the bees and managed to establish 4 maybe a possible 5 beelines going off into the surrounding woods. I had assumed that there may not be many ferals on my side of the ridge, but I guess Im wrong. Looks like I have some beelining to do so I can locate and map these colonies.


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

Pcolar, good point with the drainage. Hadn't considered that... Thanks!


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