# Decapping Tools ??



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

technically you hold the comb on a slant (leaning the frame slightly forward at the top) and uncap from the bottom. this allows the capping to fall away from the frame. a sharp nail point extruding from a wood fixture (typically two small notched boards joined to make an very uneven X) acts as the point to secure the bottom of the frame and to spin the frame when you have uncapped the first side.


----------



## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

Any of you ever watch"Ulee's Gold"?
What kind of uncapper is he using?
Thanks


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm considering an ucapping plane.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I used one for years (and still will at times). Much more ergonomic (Where's Hawk?)than the knife and considerably quicker. Never burned a figner either. Finally bought a chain uncapper mainly because with size and market pressures I must become more efficient. The chain uncapper is faster but it definately tears up the comb and the final product is always cloudy.


----------



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I was under the impression that you had to have dry capped honey in order to torch the cappings off. Is this not true?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I was under the impression that you had to have dry capped honey in order to torch the cappings off.

Torch? You mean the hot air gun. One advantage would be that it would heat the honey.







I'm guessing it would be VERY time consuming.


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> What kind of uncapper is he using?

Can't remember the exact one, but it was
either a vibrating knife uncapper or a chain
uncapper, the two types that are used in
high-volume uncapping. A chain uncapper
uses chains to flail away the cappings,
while the vibration knife type saws the
cappings off, often using a heated knife.

These machines make a lot of sense when you
have 100 colonies or more, but make no sense
at all when you have less than a dozen colonies.

I want to hear from anyone who has had any
success at all with the "Hackler Honey Punch",
as I have heard several people say that it
worked for them on Permacomb, but I've yet to
hear anyone say that they used it with success
on any other type of comb.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I want to hear from anyone who has had any
success at all with the "Hackler Honey Punch",
as I have heard several people say that it
worked for them on Permacomb, but I've yet to
hear anyone say that they used it with success
on any other type of comb. 

I have used it on the low spots on regular comb with pretty good results. I think I'm going to buy the skinny one (2 1/2") to use instead of the 5 1/8" one that I got. I haven't liked it that much on regular comb. It gets all clogged up with wax too quickly and takes a lot of pressure to push the 5 1/8" one into the caps. Of course it's the only thing that works for low cappings on the PermaComb, but for thickly drawn comb on PermaComb I used a cold bread knife and it worked great.

From my experience, I'd buy the narrow one and use it on the low spots and use something else for the bulk of the work. I like it better on the low spots than an uncapping fork.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Re: Hackler Honey Punch

I have the 2 1/2 inch size and use it with Permacomb. I've also used it as Michael Bush
suggests in low spots in conventional drawn comb. It works, but clogs pretty quickly so you'll need easy access to cold water to clear it from wax particles. I can't say that it works all that much better than a standard capping scratcher, but for Permacomb its a must have.


----------



## Konrad (Oct 7, 2004)

Thank you all!
And for the explaining how to use the tool!

>>technically you hold the comb on a slant (leaning the frame slightly forward at the top) and uncap from the bottom.

That's when using a uncapping plane?

>>Torch? You mean the hot air gun. One advantage would be that it would heat the honey. I'm guessing it would be VERY time consuming.

I think it is better using a hot air gun, around 2000 Watt....it goes very quickly, you hear a "pop", because under the cap is some air trapped....here a pic after it's done.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/fruitnut_/Honeybee/entdeck-ff6n.jpg

>>I'm considering an ucapping plane.

How do you use it, holding frame?

Konrad


----------



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I have an uncapping plane. Dont know how to use it though.

I saw it down last season and it is awesome. Very fast!!!


----------



## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

I just use a long thin flexible knife bought from 'value village' keep it in a bucket of warm water wipe it when ready to use it. Works slick. Thinking about trying an old electric carving knife, if my wife will let go of it.

[ January 09, 2006, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: SilverFox ]


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>I'm considering an ucapping plane.

>How do you use it, holding frame?

I don't know. I've never had one.







But it looks like you could go down or up and it would be a straight pull instead of the wrist work of the uncapping knife. If nothing else it would give my wrist a break to alternate between that and the knife.


----------



## JWG (Jun 25, 2004)

Best way to use a plane is not to hold the frame at all, but to lay the comb down flat, pointing away from you the long way. Start uncapping at the end bar that is away from you, and drag the plane towards yourself. Flip the comb over and do the other side. It goes very quickly.

The cappings roll up in the hollow body of the plane and you just flip it over so they can fall out into the tank.

A couple strips of wood or strapping tacked across the uncapping tank can support the comb (with the frame laid across the two slats) while it is being uncapped.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

We've been uncapping 500-600 supers a year for about 6 yrs usign a plane. We just set on the nail (like it would sit the super) on the capping tank frame support, slice one side, then the other.


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

konrad inputs:
technically you hold the comb on a slant (leaning the frame slightly forward at the top) and uncap from the bottom.
That's when using a uncapping plane?

tecumseh corrects himself:
I was speaking of using a standard uncapping knife. never used an uncapping plane.


----------



## amymcg (Jan 13, 2005)

I tried an electric knife last year and what I found was that it was much slower than using a cold uncapping knife. The blades would get clogged with wax and honey preventing them from doing their little scissor action with ease.


----------



## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

amymcg; Thank you for saving me the frustration







I'll stick with my long knives, and warm water.


----------



## Konrad (Oct 7, 2004)

Thank you all!
I have a little time on hand, so figured I could build some experimental decapping tools.
I would like you Guys have some input in this...just say what you think about...don't be shy!
Here are two cold knifes.
Konrad
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/fruitnut_/Honeybee/IMG_3983.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/fruitnut_/Honeybee/IMG_3991.jpg


----------



## amymcg (Jan 13, 2005)

You do have some time on your hands. Are those blades the width of the comb on the frame when standing it on end?


----------



## TRC (Nov 22, 2005)

Hi Konrad,

Superb workmanship! Is that silver solder at the joints?

It seems to me that if you use a sawing motion, those joints might be in the way. It might also be hard on the wrist to hold the blade down. How about 2 handles, like on a spoke shave?

Best,
Tom


----------



## Konrad (Oct 7, 2004)

Thank you all!

>>Are those blades the width of the comb on the frame when standing it on end? 

No, these tools are designed more for inside the frame decapping, most all of the honeycomb was below the frame... as expected for brand new foundation. [first year]

>>Superb workmanship! Is that silver solder at the joints?

Yes, it makes a very strong joint!....looks like you have done some?


>>It seems to me that if you use a sawing motion, those joints might be in the way

Good point!...I also expected that, that's why I made them as thin as possible and set them back of the blade as much as I can. Have tested it a little today, [had a partly capped comb still in the freezer, have taken my first comb honey from] was surprised how nice it slices thrue the wax.....except, the wax at times would go over beyond the blade.
I think it could be fixed by having another small blade at the very end tilted upward.....will see, time will tell.

Have made today a longer blade and a hot knife-plane as you see. The hot knife was a surprise to me, how easy it would slice thrue the wax.....but perhaps with this set up, you are loosing more honey.
If this is going to be my first Joyce of use?, instead the propane bottle, perhaps I would make a wooden handle, [lighter and smaller] where the propane is fed inside the handle, coming from a hose, [larger propane bottle]


The long knife was very simple to make, I had some old chrome plated tubing around. The knife you can tilt to your likings. I think most of you can get it made, perhaps a bit more simple yet, I was thinking just take a good sturdy hacksaw and attach one of the blade I use, from a business, who supplies bandsaw blades, this one I show is used in the meat industry, just drill a hole in the ends and it might work like that. These blades are very tin, .020 thick by 1/2" wide and need to be under very good tension, so they don't flex when cutting.
The smaller knifes:... I used 3/8" diam. stainless steel rod and soldered the handle onto the blade under preload.
Konrad
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/fruitnut_/Honeybee/decapping.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/fruitnut_/Honeybee/IMG_4033.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/fruitnut_/Honeybee/IMG_0806.jpg

This is a cross section of the hot knife [end]
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/fruitnut_/Honeybee/IMG_4001.jpg


----------



## Konrad (Oct 7, 2004)

Here my latest creation.....basically the same idea as the first ones I made, somewhat improved, [wider blade and curved]....this should please Tom! The same knife used, but attached it to wider one.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/fruitnut_/Honeybee/IMG_4961.jpg

This one is made from the same blade but lightly curved, so the wax can "curl". The bottom cross round bar is held by tightening the end screw. No heat evolved, the end of blade have drilled holes where the end bars go thrue, [with tiny grooves] where it locates.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/fruitnut_/Honeybee/IMG_4930.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/fruitnut_/Honeybee/IMG_1128.jpg


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

If you have good drawn even comb, the plane is the best "hand-held" uncapper I use. Very fast and clean cutting.

The standard electric hot knife I use more than anything else. The key is getting the temp at a level that is compatible with your speed of uncapping. I have one that is connected to a holding lever that you place the knife on when not in use. It limits the knifes temp, but yet maintain a temp that allows it to heat back up within seconds to continue uncapping. It is very old, and I have never looked inside to see what makes it work.

The real low spots I use the end of the knife. I have the punch and the scratcher, but do not like the results in using them. I would rather not waste the time dealing with a small amount of uncapped comb, or would just feed it back to the bees.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A friend of mine uncaps thousands of pounds of honey annually, from 800 to 1200 colonies, both FL honey and NY honey, using a hive tool. 

Actually many hive tools. One worker stands between the extractors and uncaps into a stainless steel basket (intake maintenance cover off of a jet engine) and two other stations where a worker uncapps into a barrel. The barrel cover is cut in many places so that the cappings end up in the barrel.

It works for him. Low maintenance, few movable parts, no frame breaking, the ability to uncap all the capped honey, and dig out the crystalized honey, if there is any.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

How does one control the depth? Are they plastic foundation? I've done it on PermaComb.







But that's another thing altogether.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Control of depth is done by hand. Unless one is going after crystallized honey, therefore wanting to dig deep, you only take off the caps. If you go deeper than expected, no big deal. The cell is still there for the bees to rebuild.

Plastic foundation? Yes, some but, not much, really. Jon doesn't try to take all of the comb off of the foundation, just the caps.


----------



## KSbee (Feb 18, 2005)

Speaking of the hot air uncapper. Googled it and found this http://www.mrac.ca/index.cfm/fuseaction/prj.details/ID/093A3680-A9C5-DB13-310003F3EC72E781/index.cfm

Looks like someone up north has been doing some extensive research on the topic. Does anyone here know if the concept has been refined? Seems like a lot less mess and waste than traditional means, especially after seeing Konrad's photo.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Would the honey be considered raw?


----------



## uncletom (Apr 4, 2003)

I havent used a knife in years and wont go back. I use a little roller thing, must be the Hackler Honey Punch, but I dont remember that being the name. I keep a pan of very hot water handy and as it clogs i drop it in for minute and shake it off. No more clog. Best invention since the motorized extractor.

tom

I should have added that I supplement it with one of those comb forks, looks like a mini insilage fork, to get any hard to get at caps

tom

[ February 03, 2006, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: uncletom ]


----------



## DANIEL QUINCE (Jan 15, 2006)

OK, forgive my ignorance, but I never uncapped any frames. Ive got the impression from your pictures that you always cut to the side bars level. If this is true, wouldnt be easier to build a stationary tool with two blades spaced to the frame thickness and side guides to center the frame and push the frame down in between the blades? One stroke will do both sides. It looks like is easier to handle the frame than a small tool with a small handle. The fixed structure could sit over a tank to collect the cut-off pieces. Also a fixed structure will allow a more rigid frame that could provide an increased blade tension (thinking of saw blades). If you want to get fancy you could add some blade heaters and shields bellow the blades so the capping will flow down into the tank without sticking to the frame before you remove it. What do you think? Need some criticism. I may need to do some uncapping this year, I hope.
Daniel


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel, what you have just described is a single bladed stationary jiggle knife contraption. The favorite uncapping method of another friend of mine. The knife can either be heated by steam or electricity. Not the same knife, that is. Those are two different ways of heating knives for uncapping.


----------



## DANIEL QUINCE (Jan 15, 2006)

I am not sure sqkcrk. I was thinking of one blade on each side of the frame. Where can I see one of this? Curiosity I guess since I don't want to reinvent the wheel, just make it rounder. I design machine tools and injection machines for living and usually I get a lot from a picture.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, one on both sides would be the Cowen Uncapper. A single bladed jiggle knife would be in the Kelley Catalog, I believe. I'll look it up.

Well, they don't have one. Too old fashioned, I guess.

Daniel, with all of the different types of uncapping devices available, I wouldn't think that you would waste your time inventing a new one without findimng all of the ones already available. 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't invent one. But, I bet if you are handy enough to invent one, maybe you are handy enough to take an existing model and improve it. 

Make it more ergonomic, perhaps?

Do the research. Give it a try. Keep us posted.


----------



## DANIEL QUINCE (Jan 15, 2006)

Thank you. That's what I meant by "making the wheel rounder". I'll be looking for the old fashioned. If anybody can help, please do so.
Daniel


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

There must be a web site that illustrates all of the know uncapping devices ever invented. Maybe IBRA has a publication or reference to such info. Check with Michael Bush. He seems to have lots of web resource info at his finger tips.(was that a pun? sorry.)


----------



## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

Last year I use an capping plane that I got form Walter Kelly Co. After I got the cutter adjusted I really liked it. It does not put stress on the wrist like regular capping knives


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

How does the plane work on mediums? Seems like they are only 4" wide or so aren't they? I'm thinking of trying one but I only have mediums.


----------



## DANIEL QUINCE (Jan 15, 2006)

What is the temperature that the knives need to be for heated uncappers?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Steam temp. It helps if the supers have been in a Hot Room for a while, too.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Steam temp.

Unless you specify the pressure that doesn't really narrow it down.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sorry. I don't know the pressure in the simple old tank that came from Kelley, I believe. This is an old metal type gas can with a steel cap on a stem at the top of the can. There are two tubes coming off of it going to the steam knife. The tank sits on a burner to heat the water in the can.

My buddy Jon runs his sump tank heat and his hot knife off of his boiler. I'll ask him for the pressure specs when next we speak. He's on the road and out of range. Either that or he has his phone switched off. I don't think so, though.


----------



## DANIEL QUINCE (Jan 15, 2006)

Actually what is important is the knife temperature. Than based on material, surface area, a.s.o. you get the heat loss and you size the system to maintain the knife as well as the skirt temperature so the wax flows down instead of solidifying on it. Steam pressure and temperature kind of locks you to a particular system, plus you need to work your way back without knowing all the variables, in order to come up with the knife temperature. You can even cut with an ultrasonic knife. I've done one for Michelin to cut rubber in the tire manufacturing process. The knife is cold if you use a non-contact thermometer, but will burn your fingers is you touch it. I am not implying that is a feasible, economically sound solution. I just want the basic process requirements to have a starting point. I was hoping that you Michael may know of a source for the history of this tool, as mention by Mark a few posts above.
Thank you
Daniel


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm afraid I don't know of a source of info on every uncapper every used. I have heard of the large capacity ones that use the heated knives vibrating knives and chain flails. But I really don't know where you'd find pictures or info on them.


----------



## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

How about a bandsaw modified to a stationary uncapper? You could even heat the blade just before it rolls across the comb with a small torch. 

Of course a misalignment would cut your frames in half.


----------



## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Daniel go rent a movie called Ulie's Gold. It show an uncapper in action as well as a lot of great bee shots. I think it starred Peter Fonda. And if you can build those, give me a discount when you're redy to sell.

Hawk


----------



## DANIEL QUINCE (Jan 15, 2006)

Good movie. I believe that's a Cowen as stated by Mark a few posts back. I didn't see any source of heat. I'll look again since the movie is a 5-day rental. How does the de-capping tool affect the filtration process? Is there a preferred method of decapping from the filtration point of view? I would believe that cold moving knives are the worst. Am I wrong?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No, Daniel you aren't wrong.

Most of the Cowen Uncappers work on a steam or hot water system, keeping the knives warm and clean.

Filtration is not the proper word to use in the extracting process. Filtration, if done, comes later. Usually, in my experience, the honey and the capping go into a sump tank, where most of the cappings stay and the honey is pumped off of the bottom. 

Some systems run all of the honey and cappings through a spinner to seperate the cappings from the honey.

The Dakota Gunniss(sp?) system uses chains flailing around above and below the combs as they pass through the uncapper. Sorta like a planer, but not exactly. This tends to chop the cappings into small bits and adds some air to the honey. Or it can. Pretty noisy, too.

Some systems rely on electricity for the heating of the blades. All of these systems work well. It's just a matter of preference.

I'd like to see an erginomically designed hand held hot knife. Electric or steam, doesn't matter. One draw back of the hand held hot knife is carpul tunnel syndrome. For me anyway.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'd like to see an erginomically designed hand held hot knife.

It's called a "plane".


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I had one of those and couldn't get it to work right for me. How about you?

Jon says that his steam pressure is about 3lbs with the knife being about 212 degrees F.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I had one of those and couldn't get it to work right for me. How about you?

I have not had one, but was considering buying one. What was your problem with it?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

My recollection was that it was akward to use. It wanted to dig in deeper than I wanted it to. It was slow. Maybe I didn't know how to regulate the temperature. Or maybe it was broken. It was used. 

So, I ended up using the electric hot knife. I found that to work well for me but it was hard on my wrist to uncap enough shallow frames to extract 40,000 lbs of honey. I think that was the amount of production. 

I had a honey house fire and haven't extracted my own honey for almost 10 years now. That's alot easier on my wrists. For sure.

Not so easy on my pocket book, though.


----------



## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

Michael Bush 
>>How does the plane work on mediums? Seems like they are only 4" wide or so aren't they? I'm thinking of trying one but I only have mediums.

I use mostly mediums myself. I have to make 2 passes, but I still liked the plane better than my knife. It is easier on my wrist because I am not putting sideways preasure on the wrist.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It is easier on my wrist because I am not putting sideways preasure on the wrist. 

That's what I was hoping. Even if I just alternate between that and the knife at least I get to give my wrist a rest.







Too bad they don't make them about 6" wide.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

The maxant plane is an excellant piece of equipment. We used ours for the past 10 yrs, finally got a chain uncapper. Much more ergonomic than the knife.

Mark, what caused your honey house fire. Mine was a wax flash fire. I still have places I can't grow hair after putting that one out.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Electrical was what the fire marshall said.


----------

