# Mites or CCD?



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Was there any sealed brood? Even a little bit? How about in the bottom box?


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Have you medicated with anything?


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

What did the brood frames look like? Any sign of pests? Are you aware of their Mite levels (vorroa & tracheal)?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

There was the normal dead sealed brood left by mited out bees. I do not medicate. There was no bottom box, it was a Jumbo. I have a lot of mites in many colonies and do every winter.


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## mobees (Jul 26, 2004)

It might be worth freezing a couple of frames to send off
to the lab, looks suspicious. You would think even in worse case
there should be a small patch of brood and a small cluster struggling to
keep it warm.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

odfrank said:


> There was the normal dead sealed brood left by mited out bees. I do not medicate. There was no bottom box, it was a Jumbo. I have a lot of mites in many colonies and do every winter.


OK, there was some brood. Pull some hatching brood. The bee must be fully developed, and hatching. She will often have her tongue sticking out. Does she have fully formed wings? How long is her abdomen? Shorter than the wings?

This is a pretty good field test for PMS.


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

I'd say you just lost your first hive to _vorroa destructor_. But it won't hurt to send a frame to the lab and verify things.

-Nathanael


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Nothing good ever comes from lots of mites. Medicate. Keep the bees healthy. If you are not a comophous person I also like formic acid.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

I think the fact there is no robbing would make me think it's not mites. A hive that has been weakened by mites is usually robbed out and the mites taken back to the robbers hive. The fact that there was not a small number of bees and a queen could be because you were a couple of days late finding this hive. I believe it only takes a couple of weeks to go from strong hive to nothing. It will probably take two to four weeks for your dead hive to air out before robbers will start working on it. At least that's my understanding of CCD. Jim


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

odfrank said:


> It was so strong two months ago ...
> Today, no bees, ...


I've had a few colonies overcome by Varroa Mites, and if I remember correctly, in each case there were a lot of dead bees and mites to be found in the hive. It was very obvious what had taken them out.

Is it common to find no dead bees in a hive after a sudden collapse from Varroa Mites? Just curious what anyone else has noticed.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

I am not too far from Odfrank's location. Some years ago I lost one to varroa at exactly this time of year. His description fits my loss to a tee. And I am positive that mine did die from varroa. 
As for the robbing, in this area there is still plenty of forage available and the temps are quite good. Empty hives can sit for quite a while before getting robbed. Not always the case but not unusual either.

Fuzzy


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*robbing*

They didn't rob this hive but come around in force when I open my honey house door. All over dry/wet supers I removed from the hives too.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

yea CS, you just keep on medicating... that is how we have questionable queens with crappy hygenic behavior.


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Chef Isaac said:


> yea CS, you just keep on medicating... that is how we have questionable queens with crappy hygenic behavior.


I am myself using a greatly resistant strain of bee constructed by a local beekeeper who medicates with nothing. I am using these in test hives to see if I can use this strain to go med free. I am a proponent of non-medication. However, I hate to see bees die as I am sure anyone on this site will agree. If a hive is overrun with varroa, these "destructors" I will medicate. I have also seen that there is a considerable amount of money to be made in honey sales and could not attain this profit margin if all my bees are dying. I hate the idea of chemicals, but I will not let my bees perish as martyrs to the organic idealism.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Michael Palmer said:


> This is a pretty good field test for PMS.


I know what that means when my wife has it. What does it mean when bees have it?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

CSbees said:


> I will not let my bees perish as martyrs to the organic idealism.


I quite medicating when I lost half the hives with Apistan, and also after I found lost strips in hive after a year or two. I just found one in a dead out that must have been hiding for three years. How many of those are there across the world?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

odfrank said:


> I know what that means when my wife has it. What does it mean when bees have it?


Parasytic Mite Syndrome 

The pupae have been damaged by Varroa and Viruses. Many don't develop correctly, so by the end, you are left with few bees and dying brood. Many bees die in the process of hatching. The hatching bees have shriveled wings and/or stunted, flattened little abdomens.


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

odfrank said:


> I know what that means when my wife has it. What does it mean when bees have it?


Not the same thing your wife has.  (_Parasitic Mite Syndrome_)



CSbees said:


> I am myself using a greatly resistant strain of bee constructed by a local beekeeper who medicates with nothing. I am using these in test hives to see if I can use this strain to go med free. I am a proponent of non-medication. However, I hate to see bees die as I am sure anyone on this site will agree. If a hive is overrun with varroa, these "destructors" I will medicate. I have also seen that there is a considerable amount of money to be made in honey sales and could not attain this profit margin if all my bees are dying. I hate the idea of chemicals, but I will not let my bees perish as martyrs to the organic idealism.


If my bees are heavily infested with vorroa, then, yes, I'll treat chemically. But I just take a little more work and effort upon myself to sugar dust my hives throughout the year. It's a lot more affordable than chemicals, and I can still get top dollar for "organic" honey!

-Nathanael


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

I also will try the powdered sugar dustings next year.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

howdy od...

in regards to your picture.. are those little piles of dead bees at the bottom associated with the dead hive in question? if yes... then the second thing (it casually looks quite a bit like an insecticide kill which would be my first thought) that comes to mind is Isreali Acute Paralysis Disease (IAPV). I have not directly tested for this new problem (you need live affected bees I am informed by the lab). I have seen one or two suspected cases here. typically the time from first effect (accumlating dead bees at the front entry) to a dead out is just about two months...


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## James Fischer (Nov 19, 2007)

> Isreali Acute Paralysis Disease (IAPV).

Hold on there, IAPV killed hives in Israel, but the variant/strain we have
here in the USA has not been anywhere near as virulent, and by itself,
clearly does NOT kill hives. In fact, the IAPV found in samples taken from
hives in 2002-2006 were a surprise simply because the samples were
taken from _*apparently healthy*_ hives.

> I have seen one or two suspected cases here. 

You have? Wow, that's interesting, as these would have been the
first cases ever reported in the USA. Next time, get some sample
bees in the fridge and some samples in the freezer. (Freezing can 
break apart virus particles, while mere fridge storage can create
a problem with long-term preservation, so doing both is the best
way for a beekeeper to store samples before he contacts one
of the labs.)

> typically the time from first effect (accumulating dead bees at the 
> front entry) to a dead out is just about two months...

That's much slower than the time that Sela, et al reported as the
symptomatic kill rate from IAPV in Israel in the journal "_Virology_"
(July 2007). What they saw was dead brood in days, and deadout
hives in days thereafter. A very quick deadout.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

tecumseh said:


> in regards to your picture.. are those little piles of dead bees at the bottom associated with the dead hive in question?
> 
> The hive is in a five foot wide space between two buildings and the dead bees accumulate from four other hives as it is a steep climb for the undertaker bees to haul them out. Since this is a residential area there are no blanket pesticide sprayings that I know of.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

first mr fischer writes:
Hold on there, IAPV killed hives in Israel, but the variant/strain we have
here in the USA has not been anywhere near as virulent, and by itself,
clearly does NOT kill hives. In fact, the IAPV found in samples taken from
hives in 2002-2006 were a surprise simply because the samples were
taken from apparently healthy hives.

and then:

Wow, that's interesting, as these would have been the
first cases ever reported in the USA. 


tecumseh replies:
I am not certain the second snip totally agrees with the first snip Jim????

I did take samples of the suspects by the state lab.... but at that time I had never even heard of IAPV so 'that' was never really on my list of stuff to look for on that occasion...

My good neighbor down the road (those fine folks who raise queens down in Navasota, Tx) has a nitrogen tank and he has volunteered to preserve a sample for me the next time the occasion arrises.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I hate to see bees die as I am sure anyone on this site will agree. If a hive is overrun with varroa, these "destructors" I will medicate. I have also seen that there is a considerable amount of money to be made in honey sales and could not attain this profit margin if all my bees are dying. I hate the idea of chemicals, but I will not let my bees perish as martyrs to the organic idealism.


Right to the point, and right on the money.


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