# Bad Commercial Beeks



## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

Sorry for your troubles, hopefully all will be resolved soon. Atleast before pepper is over.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

broodhead said:


> I have seen a recent trend that is disturbing and will end up causing wars like we have not seen in years.


Not just happening in Florida, one of my land owners said a truck load of bees pulled up to him and asked if they could drop some hive, he told them I already had a yard on his property, beek said no problem the more the merrier, land owner said please move along, beek pulls up to the next farm, asks for permission and drops 40 hive just over the stone wall from mine.
happens again next year things will get interesting I think.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

This happened in Manitoba this summer. A beekeepers dropped five yards right into another beekeepers apiary. The resident beekeeper was quite upset and after repeated phone calls for the visiting beekeeper to move, he made an idol threat of killing the hives... the next week four out of the five yards were poisoned. I dont know if it was the resident beekeeper who did the act, but it sure looked like it!

Its not the way to deal with this kind of situation, but as beekeepers I think we all understand the situation...


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## mnbeekeeper (Jun 30, 2010)

there is a beek family in our area that seems to think the rules do not apply to them as far as staying in their territory. they have come into our counties with multiple yards. we have confronted them and asked them not to step on our toes. but they ignore us. they think they are bigger and better. it is now my understanding if I wish for them to move out of our area I should poison their hives.....I could never and would never do that. I would rather steel the bees not the boxes because I could not bring myself to gas good hives. but it is strange how some folks will be understanding and respectful and some are just plain jerks.... 

actually I think the best thing would be to smear their name all over this web site. but I wont do that either.


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

I have been keeping bees in Ft Pierce for years ,it has gotten so bad down there that we are having to pay for spots that we have been using for 15 years .Every pasture or thrown away orange grove has a 10wheeler load of bees in it. Horace Bell won't think nothing of parking 500 hives in a pasture across the street from you, not for honey but just to build them for Ca. I understand your frustration ,but thats what Florida has become in the fall.


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

Yea, I know exactly where you are talking about. I look at that along I95 on the East side of the highway along Angle Road and just shake my head. 
I did get good news today from DFL, they will be removing the bees in a couple of days, hopefully this will take place and no further problems will be encountered. My discussion with him today was cordial and he apologized, my hat is off to the guy. Thank You DFL !
I can assure you that those placing bees within one mile of active groves should consider the fact that imidacloprids are being sprayed at an alarming rate to combat citrus greening. Look out if you place bees in Indian River, St. Lucie and Martin Counties on the East Coast.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

broodhead said:


> My discussion with him today was cordial and he apologized, my hat is off to the guy. Thank You DFL !
> .


Nice.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

What is the trespass fine for placing bees on the county right of way?
Is it initially a warning and then enforcement if you don't comply?
What if you intended to move the hives but your truck breaks down? 

I've heard that "beekeeping is rubbing" but I have no intent of heading down there I've also heard that "they play rough" .


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Trevor Mansell said:


> I have been keeping bees in Ft Pierce for years ,it has gotten so bad down there that we are having to pay for spots that we have been using for 15 years .Every pasture or thrown away orange grove has a 10wheeler load of bees in it. Horace Bell won't think nothing of parking 500 hives in a pasture across the street from you, not for honey but just to build them for Ca. I understand your frustration ,but thats what Florida has become in the fall.


I congratulate you Trevor telling us the persons full name. There's no harm in the truth.


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

Haraga said:


> I congratulate you Trevor telling us the persons full name. There's no harm in the truth.


If you are a commercial beekeeper and you don't know who Horace Bell is ,then you are not a commercial beekeeper. Ive meet Horace on plenty of occasions and never had a problem with him ,I just don't appreciate his dealings or attempted dealings with my land owners.


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

From what I have learned, county right of way is protected by county statutes, yes it would be like a car that is left and can be removed. If one chooses to ignore the request for removal a writ of trespassing can be issued and the owner of the item can be arrested or issued a citation.
What we all need is a better way to deal with squatters. Dropping bees and being given 30 days to remove them is not very effective in dealing with the problem. In some cases 30 days will allow for the offender to gather the desired honey and laugh as he drives off.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The real irony is when someone decides the solution is to poison hives and ends up poisoning his own in the process via robbing. Didn't that happen down there a couple of years back by lacing a feed tank with an insecticide?


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/massive-kill-honey-bees-south-brevard-insecticide

I think that in one of these cases down here that you're thinking of the beekeeper or an employee noticed signs of poisoning and immediately started feeding to "flush" them not realizing his tote of syrup was poisoned.

There are a couple areas here that have a Wild West reputation , no idea if it's true or deserved. Shooting, jail time, barrels of Foulbrood frames, poisoning etc. Maybe the pros can clarify.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mnbeekeeper said:


> it is now my understanding if I wish for them to move out of our area I should poison their hives.....I could never and would never do that. I would rather steel the bees not the boxes because I could not bring myself to gas good hives.


You have mentioned a number of illegal acts, yet what is this other person doing that is illegal? Parking close to your hives is not against the Law, is it?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> You have mentioned a number of illegal acts, yet what is this other person doing that is illegal? Parking close to your hives is not against the Law, is it?


Someone sleeping with your wife isn't illegal either but you aren't going to let it continue, are you?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

oh this conversation could get real nasty...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Trevor Mansell said:


> If you are a commercial beekeeper and you don't know who Horace Bell is ,then you are not a commercial beekeeper.


Horace who?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

broodhead said:


> I did get good news today..............., they will be removing the bees.


Is it time to party or time to put your reality check hat on.....?

One side of me says its time for you to celebrate and be thankful while the prudent side of me says that the placement of a tracking device to confirm that they don't get re-tucked around the next bend might be a wise investment if you really don't want a repeat a few feet down the road. A move my guess that is likely to happen. 

How hard would it be to place one of your frames loaded with a tracker on the same "public property" which these bees currently occupy .........if they really are currently on a public right of way that is? 

You wouldn't be trespassing to access the "same area" as far as I know and I am at loss as to what law you would be breaking doing so. 

A follow up call to the trespasser asking him why he has taken possession of some of your equipment a few hours after they move might confirm in his mind that you are dead serious about this issue. When you gently inform him that a prompt call to the local sheriff where your equipment was removed from will be forthcoming in short order if he doesn't hightail back north with his boxes right quick is likely to help incline him take a hike back north muy pronto with his bees in tow. 

You really can buy peace of mind for $200..... Works quite well. Not perfect but good enough for this situation IME. See: 

http://www.bluecosmo.com/satellite-tracking-monitoring/spot/spot-trace/


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## pleasantvalley (May 22, 2014)

Ian said:


> This happened in Manitoba this summer. A beekeepers dropped five yards right into another beekeepers apiary. The resident beekeeper was quite upset and after repeated phone calls for the visiting beekeeper to move, he made an idol threat of killing the hives... the next week four out of the five yards were poisoned. I dont know if it was the resident beekeeper who did the act, but it sure looked like it!
> 
> Its not the way to deal with this kind of situation, but as beekeepers I think we all understand the situation...


Are you talking about this story? Curious that the "feud" aspect of it never got into the story. Maybe the media was hoping to drum up some anti-Monsanto sentiment instead.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Ian said:


> Horace who?


I can't believe you don't know horace. 
And you call yourself a commercial beek. 😝


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Trevor Mansell said:


> If you are a commercial beekeeper and you don't know who Horace Bell is ,then you are not a commercial beekeeper [in FL].


Ian is from Canada. I bet there are commercial beekeepers in Canada known to almost every commercial beekeeper there and unknown to you and I.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Haraga said:


> Someone sleeping with your wife isn't illegal either but you aren't going to let it continue, are you?


Which has what to do with what? What they are doing may not be nice, but it isn't illegal, is it? So what recourse have you?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Haraga said:


> I can't believe you don't know horace.
> And you call yourself a commercial beek. 


A new qualifier? If you know who Horace Bell is you are a commercial beekeeper? Or do you have to actually know him on a personal basis? What if you have some of his equipment? Does that qualify as knowing him?

I bet I have some Bell Boxes. Probably got them when I acquired some Charnock boxes. Never met either, but know of them.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Haraga said:


> I can't believe you don't know horace.
> And you call yourself a commercial beek. &#55357;&#56861;


Who in the heck are you?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

jmgi said:


> Who in the heck are you?


Specifically what is it that you want to know?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> What they are doing may not be nice, but it isn't illegal, is it? So what recourse have you?


Zero

Some beekeepers who operate within the area they grew up, and have an established relationship with the neighbours may be able to keep guys out by having the actual land owners on their side, but that does not apply to most all beekeepers...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jmgi said:


> Who in the heck are you?


I have heard of Adee, and Millar, and Weaver, Oliveraz, Strachen
This is the first time I heard the name Bell. Can someone give a quick Bio??


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

Horace Bell was the largest US beekeeper for quite some time. He sells around 10,000 hives every spring ,he has an add in the ABJ. The interesting thing is he sells them to the other large outfits that can't keep them alive because of "CCD."


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

Sounds like he's on the right side of the equation! And has repeat customers!


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I think he was looking for a beekeeping job a while ago.

:lpf:


http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-operation-in-Northern-CA&p=856579#post856579


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Trevor Mansell said:


> The interesting thing is he sells them to the other large outfits that can't keep them alive because of "CCD."


......who then turns the bill over to the ELAP program for reimbursement.


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## AstroZomBEE (Aug 1, 2006)

Beeshooter, I guess that name is accurate for him.



Mbeck said:


> I think he was looking for a beekeeping job a while ago.
> 
> :lpf:
> 
> ...


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

Bingo, we have a winner!!! Yes the good ole ELAP program where you cannot lose, the good ole taxpayer stuffs your pocket with cash.

On another note, there was once a beekeeper who was having a battle with another beekeeper and ended up taking out his frustrations on another beekeeper here in good ole sunny Florida. After beating the heck out of another beek he wrapped him in plastic and taped him up and threw him in a ditch. The good ole fire ants bit the wounded guy all up and the wounded beek was found and survived. As the story goes the law got involved and the beekeeper that did the bad deed spent several years in prison. I guess the lesson to be learned is not to take things into your own hands, let the cops do the dealing.


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

I just brought 400 colonies to Ruskin, Florida after completing a pollination in Ohio. I have 200 more coming in two weeks after I end another pollination in Ohio. This year I had to pay for pepper yards. I am in a great location, but nonetheless, it is getting more difficult to get the colonies built up [this year I am building them for Cali]. I paid 300.00 a month for 5 acres with electric and water with a property that has a 10' fence all around and a secured gate. The pepper was just starting to bud and I expect it will be in full bloom in two weeks. No, I don't have any room, so please don't ask. I have two others who are riding shotgun with me already with about 50-60 colonies. The one problem I am having this year is that the bees were so heavy that I couldn't bring 466 on a semi. Was almost overweight with 400.


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

broodhead said:


> Bingo, we have a winner!!! Yes the good ole ELAP program where you cannot lose, the good ole taxpayer stuffs your pocket with cash.
> 
> On another note, there was once a beekeeper who was having a battle with another beekeeper and ended up taking out his frustrations on another beekeeper here in good ole sunny Florida. After beating the heck out of another beek he wrapped him in plastic and taped him up and threw him in a ditch. The good ole fire ants bit the wounded guy all up and the wounded beek was found and survived. As the story goes the law got involved and the beekeeper that did the bad deed spent several years in prison. I guess the lesson to be learned is not to take things into your own hands, let the cops do the dealing.


He is another one that is showing up in Ft Pierce.


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

broodhead said:


> Bingo, we have a winner!!! Yes the good ole ELAP program where you cannot lose, the good ole taxpayer stuffs your pocket with cash.
> 
> This ELAP program is just happening now if I am correct.
> Do you know of any beekeepers that have actually gotten any money?
> ...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

http://www.gccga.com/ELAP 2014 Farm Bill.pdf
I think ELAP is well intentioned. As with pretty much all of these types of programs the biggest share tends to go to those who submit the best claims not necessarily to those who have suffered the worst losses. Many 6 figure claims have been paid including one here in South Dakota for $300,000.....the information is out there. If I thought there could be some uniform "yardstick" to fairly judge losses among beekeepers throughout the country and to differentiate between true misfortune and sloppy beekeeping I suppose I wouldn't be so cynical. 
To be honest my impression of these types of programs goes back to the bee indemnity programs of the 1970's when the "usual suspects" who filed early, found "experts" to give favorable evaluations and made the most audacious claims got the greatest share of the reimbursements. At least now payments are prorated as a share of the money available such was not the case with some of the earlier programs where payment to later filers was often dependent on whether congress appropriated additional funds.


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

jim lyon said:


> http://www.gccga.com/ELAP 2014 Farm Bill.pdf
> I think ELAP is well intentioned. As with pretty much all of these types of programs the biggest share tends to go to those who submit the best claims not necessarily to those who have suffered the worst losses. Many 6 figure claims have been paid including one here in South Dakota for $300,000....
> 
> The current program states that $125,000 per year is the limit no matter what.
> ...


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## Coffee_Bee (Feb 3, 2013)

--


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

MNbees said:


> Does anyone know of anyone getting money for this current farm bill? (2012/21013/2014)


One person in N.Y. got $4,000 paid for losses in 2012, got the check this year, so I would guess for losses in 2013 you would get a check in 2015.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

imagine what pops up when you least expect it.

http://farm.ewg.org/top_recips.php?fips=36000&progcode=total_lea&yr=2012&regionname=NewYork

I would think if you change the region name to your state you should get a list. N.Y. list is interesting, most of the commercial beeks on the aiac committee lead the charge:thumbsup:

James E Doan received payments totaling $461,032 from 1995 through 2012
Laurence W Winter received payments totaling $142,183 from 1995 through 2012
Theodore P Elk received payments totaling $15,709 from 1995 through 2012


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So why doesn't your name or my name show up on that list? Are we fools for not participating? I could use some extra funding? But I just figured that my losses were due to something I did. Maybe that isn't the right way to look at it.

If someone participates in an Insurance Program, does that make them a "Bad Commercial" beekeeper? Or a good businessman? Should those who do not participate feel superior to those who do?


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

We should try to get as many of our tax dollars back.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> So why doesn't your name or my name show up on that list? Are we fools for not participating? I could use some extra funding? But I just figured that my losses were due to something I did. Maybe that isn't the right way to look at it.
> 
> If someone participates in an Insurance Program, does that make them a "Bad Commercial" beekeeper? Or a good businessman? Should those who do not participate feel superior to those who do?


too many questions. actually the guy who said he just received his payment doesn't show up on the list either. I should show up on the list for 2014, but my reasons for putting in had nothing to do with the money. #1 I always wanted to see my govt. in action, note: I'm not impressed at least with the local office. #2 when I contacted the IRS and NY IRS when I moved to NY, they said I couldn't use schedule F because I didn't have a farm(goes toward some of the reading about sales tax that we have been doing), in order to put in for ELAP money I had to have a farm #, I now have a Farm # so I have a farm, now if they ever check(I doubt it), I can file a schedule F.

I'll give an example of the fun with the govt. They said I could get reimbursed for some of the sugar I used, gave them copies of the receipts, a couple months later the person sends me an email, says you have to show us how much sugar you normally use each year. My normal response, In a normal year, I don't use sugar to feed the bees no need, how should I proceed to show you receipts for sugar I didn't buy. the person responds a copy of your schedule f should show it others are using it, I said look in my folder I use schedule c. there goes the sugar write off


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> If someone participates in an Insurance Program, does that make them a "Bad Commercial" beekeeper? Or a good businessman? Should those who do not participate feel superior to those who do?


If you look on a yearly basis, and find the same people putting in and getting money every year, I classify them as bad beekeepers and bad businessmen. And after going through the elap process you have to file in the state that the bees died, so I would expect(didn't look in to it) that they may also be collecting in other states. I also find it interesting that other commercial beeks that do not do pollination and stay in N.Y. don't show up on the list, so in my opinion the Govt(me) is subsidizing a bad business model. As Mr Cappy said at the last AIAC meeting, rest the bees once in a while and they will recover. If the Govt keeps subsidizing them, why change, just say it's neonics, what will it be when the neonics are gone.


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