# No Stores Going into Winter



## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Im north of you and feeding 2-1 with bag feeders on top of the frames, hive weights are going up. Im gonna do the same with dry sugar or candy boards later if neccessary, but Im gonna keep up the 2-1 till they take no more. Good Luck. G


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Keep heavily feeding the 5:3 until they stop taking it. Fondant and dry sugar are not stored by the bees and are for emergency feeding only when they will no longer take the syrup


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I just put warm syrup and a small pollen patty inside my 2 nucs this morning. As long as they keep taking it, I'll keep feeding them. The bees were all over it since it's raining and 50 degrees here for the next 2 days.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Hitler had something to say on this.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXI19YKp9_Y


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

snl said:


> Keep heavily feeding the 5:3 until they stop taking it. Fondant and dry sugar are not stored by the bees and are for emergency feeding only when they will no longer take the syrup


Fondant does can get stored by the bees if put on early enough but likely too late now.
It is getting late for feeding syrup as well as the bees need time to concentrate it and cap it.
Uncapped syrup can ferment and cause dysentry.

Another option would be to get a frame or two of capped stores from elsewhere and set them into the colony.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

jonathan said:


> Fondant does can get stored by the bees if put on early enough but likely too late now.


Not according to Michael Palmer......


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

If fed late they will use as needed, if fed early they take it down and store the same as they would honey or sugar syrup, some beekeepers only ever feed fondant, i did for eight years.

So does Peter Edwards, info in the link on fondant feeding.http://www.stratfordbeekeepers.org.uk/PENotes/Fondant.htm


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

I would put on as much 2:1 as possible, atleast gallons 4 or so. That is about 30 lbs of cured honey. Liquid is far superior than fondant or dry sugar which is meant as an emergency. We have a few more warm days. If need be pull the syrup off after a cool night re-warm in the morning. Definately feed internally. I would just put as many jars as possible inside an empty box ontop of the frames. Use sticks as spacers. Hive top feeders are the best though bc the heat of the hive keeps the syrup warm, plus the plastic type hold 4 gallons. Likely the population is low or you may be lucky and they just consumed everything brooding up. Definately not a good thing this late in the season.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

How have you been feeding? Any method that supplies them with a limited flow runs the risk of encouraging brood production rather than storage. I prefer hive top feeders for that reason, they can take down gallons a day, and perforce must store it as they cannot raise enough brood to use it all up. Entrance feeders or mason jars on top of the hive simply cannot supply enough syrup to force storage.

I would acquire a hivetop feeder as soon as possible, and feed at least 2 gallons of 2:1 syrup unless the daytime temps are too low for them to take it. It's late, but you really need to have stores they can cluster on. 

If it's too cold for them to take syrup, put a sheet of newspaper over the top of the frames in the top box and put an empty super on top. Dump in a 10 lb bag of dry sugar, spraying with water occasionally to get it to clump up, particularly the bottom of the pile. This will prevent the dry sugar from pouring down to the bottom of the hive where the bees won't use it. 

Check occasionally, and when they have eaten most of it, add a protein patty and more sugar late in the winter.

Another approach is to pull empty comb and fill one side of it with cold 2:1 syrup -- it pours out if you flip it over. You will need something like a rose head on a watering can to make small enough streams of the syrup to fill the cells, but once you get the comb filled on one side you can just stick it back into the hive. The bees know what to do with it. Messy but highly effective so long as they have time and warm enough weather to concentrate and cap it. If it's too cold for syrup, best to stick with dry sugar.

You can indeed make fondant or sugar cakes or candy boards, but the cheapest and easiest thing to do is newspaper and dry sugar.

Next year, get hivetop feeders if you need to feed and stuff them full of 2:1 early in the fall. Honey or sugar syrup in capped cells is much better for them than dry sugar on top, although dry sugar on top is a million times better than a hive full of frozen bees.....

Peter


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## HiveMinded (Nov 2, 2014)

Last fall, my 2 hives were faced with the same problem going onto winter. I live in Georgia, so the winters can be unpredictable. We (my Dad and I) ended up making sugar cakes and a special feeder out of an old super that had a rotting bottom. We opened the hive this spring and both were still alive. We even ended up with an early honey extraction. Since it is now November, we are getting ready to make our sugar cakes. Here is the recipe! 

1 1/2 cups water
10lbs sugar

Mix the sugar and water in a bucket (we used a food grade bucket that we got from our local bakery, but any clean bucket will work). Continue to stir until all of the sugar is sticky. You want the mixture to be thick. Then pour the mixture into a non-stick pan (I don't remember what size we used, but any pan that is about 2.5 inches deep should work). Next, take a piece of wax or parchment paper and lay it over the sugar, and take a rolling pin and compact the sugar really good. I don't think that you can compact it too much... (For an alternate method, take a metal bowl and place your hand in it, then mush the sugar down.) After this you will want to place the pan(s) in the oven and turn the light on. *DO NOT TURN THE OVEN ON*. Just the light, and let the pans sit until the sugar is hard to the touch and the top is dry. Voila! :applause:

My dad is at work right now... I'll talk to him when he gets home to see how he made the feeder, and post sometime tomorrow.

Hope this helps the girls!!!


HiveMinded


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## poppy1 (Feb 1, 2013)

HiveMinded said:


> Last fall, my 2 hives were faced with the same problem going onto winter. I live in Georgia, so the winters can be unpredictable. We (my Dad and I) ended up making sugar cakes and a special feeder out of an old super that had a rotting bottom. We opened the hive this spring and both were still alive. We even ended up with an early honey extraction. Since it is now November, we are getting ready to make our sugar cakes. Here is the recipe!
> 
> 8oz (Weight, not fluid)
> 10lbs sugar
> ...


Thank you for this valuable information and THANKS to everyone who has offered me some opinions and advice on this matter. 

So approximately how much water is 8 ounces in weight??


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## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

1/2 lb?


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## HiveMinded (Nov 2, 2014)

I don't know what you mean.....


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Gallon of water weighs 8.345 lbs.


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## HiveMinded (Nov 2, 2014)

A cup an a half of water.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It seems it must matter how big your cups are! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cup_(unit)#United_States_customary_cup


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## HiveMinded (Nov 2, 2014)

I was so tired when I posted the first comment.  So sorry for all of the inconvenience! Use 1 cup of water, or 8 fluid oz, it doesn't matter.  Reason I had it wrong... I decided that I should measure it myself instead of looking it up on the internet... and used the broken scale. I. Am. CRAZY!!! Happy Beekeeping!!! 

HiveMinded


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

Comments about Hitler are not appreciated in any respect.


snl said:


> Hitler had something to say on this.......
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXI19YKp9_Y


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

woodedareas said:


> Comments about Hitler are not appreciated in any respect.


 You just quoted one.


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

Easy way I do it 
50 lbs of sugar 2.75-3 gallons of water
makes like 6 gallons of syrup 2:1


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Good thread. I'm in the same boat. I wish I had a hive top feeder. The one I have lets the syrup drain down too much.
I would prefer to have one like FBM that will not drain down. I may go with the sugar cake on newspaper method described above.
The goldenrod bloom fooled me. It looked great, but must not have had much nectar.


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## Danpa14 (Jun 12, 2013)

Two weeks ago I did the sugar water in the comb. Worked great as I instantly had 6 combs with sugar water stored in the hive. They did move it around some over the next few days. This particular hive barely took sugar water from a inverted gallon can. You do need a water can with multiple holes to get the combs to fill and do so over a tub to reuse what runs off. And I propped up the cover with popsicle sticks on one side to help with drying I hope.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I've been hoping to read someone say: "View attempting to save the hive(s) as an educational experience and be pleased (and somewhat surprised) if you are successful."

Beekeeping is a form of agriculture - you can do all the "right" things and the hive may still die. No or inadequate stores in fall is often times indication that there is something else wrong with the colony that if not dealt with may lead to colony death despite lots and lots of feeding.

See if you can find someone local with more experience than you to evaluate your hive(s) *with* you.


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Great advice about having an expert examine the hives. My mistake was weakening them too much by taking brood to another hive.


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## poppy1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Thanks to everyone who has offered advice and opinions on my problem. We had a decent sourwood flow in the Brushy Mtns. this year and I made sure to leave at least a full super on everything I had however the goldenrod made NOTHING and so apparently they used up lots of their stores rearing brood but I have fed at least 50 gallons and some still light on stores. I have actually been trying the sugar syrup in drawn comb and they seem to be using it pretty well, we shall see


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

So why do people believe there is any material difference in feeding bees sugar dissolved in water and feeding them dry sugar? The energy content is the same. The chemistry is the same. As long as they have enough moisture to dissolve the sugar (not desert area), the net result is the bees eat sugar, either way. My experience with dry sugar is very positive including solid spring build up. Our bees can fly most of the winter (less than a week at a time below 45 degrees generally) and we are generally humid, so that is a factor. But, sugar is sugar whether it is dissolved or not. Saying dry sugar is not is good and is only for emergencies doesn't make any sense. Feeding syrup is just as much an emergency measure. As long as the bees can take syrup, feed it. When they stop, apply dry sugar with the Mountain Camp method.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Ross said:


> So why do people believe there is any material difference in feeding bees sugar dissolved in water and feeding them dry sugar?


Bees will store sugar syrup, not dry sugar........


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

They don't need to store dry sugar, it's always there on top on the bars.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Ross said:


> They don't need to store dry sugar, it's always there on top on the bars.


I "hear" you Ross, but to each his own. I like heavy, syrup (or honey filled) hives going into winter. Again, will use MC if needed.......


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

I put a cup or so of dry sugar on top of mine last week as as an experiment and they hauled tons of it out the front door. 2:1 they suck up a liter in an afternoon.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

JakeDatc said:


> I put a cup or so of dry sugar on top of mine last week as as an experiment and they hauled tons of it out the front door. 2:1 they suck up a liter in an afternoon.



you gotta mist it unless you put it on when its cold and they are clustered below and hive moisture will dampen it.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

I did mist it too. i'm guessing they were eating a bit but mostly hauling it out .


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

snl said:


> Hitler had something to say on this.......
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXI19YKp9_Y


All I have are Italians! I take offense at his view on Italians!

Phil


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

xcugat said:


> Easy way I do it
> 50 lbs of sugar 2.75-3 gallons of water
> makes like 6 gallons of syrup 2:1


+1


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

The sugar syrup I fed this year the bees dried out tip it was back th sugar solid. While I know they can eat it, but I think they need water to digest it. I'm nervous as winter is getting an early start with the polar vortex coming later this week. I put grandular sugar / pollen mix on hives today. Praying and hoping its not like last year


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

If it dried up they weren't taking it. 

Bees will drag out dry sugar and dump it when it's warm, they see it as trash, not food, until it turns into syrup on the surface from condensation. That is why adding some water works, it turns it into a lump they cannot haul out, and when the humidity goes up in the hive as the temps drop, syrup forms on the surface and they will eat it. 

Italians are well known around here for raising brood far too late into the winter, causing starve outs. Lost my first hive that way, they were fine until September and suddenly in spring had nothing in the hive and the wax moths got them. I am now using Russians, they do much better, when I cannot get swarms. My neighbor started using local queens 30 years ago for the same reason, lost far too many hives with Italian (southern raised) queens.

Mountain Camp works well after the weather cools off so the bees are not flying much. Before that they tend to carry the dry sugar out and you must wet it to make it set into a lump. Once winter sets in they will eat it with no problem. Using some newspaper underneath damp sugar gives them a nice place to cluster under their food source, plain dry sugar tends to sift down through the hive over the winter.

Peter


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Good info, thanks Fred. G


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Take the frames that you removed in July and put them back in. Now they will have stores.


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