# Check Out My New Oxalic Acid Vaporizer. Currently Testing For Effectivness



## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Now that is a unit that is compact enough to appeal to me as a small beekeeper.


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## Boondocks (Sep 16, 2020)

Nice job. BUT, you are taking a chance not wearing a respirator. The breeze could turn and blow that vapor in your face. Goggles are good as well.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Boondocks said:


> Nice job. BUT, you are taking a chance not wearing a respirator. The breeze could turn and blow that vapor in your face. Goggles are good as well.


I was testing the cap for it's POP OFF prevention deal. And yea. I got a good lung full for sure. I might have to wipe out the beard. But Mrs. Struttinbuck will make me ditch the You Tube chanel if I ditch the beard.  I'm going to have to figure out something because that stuff gave me a terrible headache through the whole afternoon. Not anything to mishandle.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

ursa_minor said:


> Now that is a unit that is compact enough to appeal to me as a small beekeeper.


I hope it's as effective as the electrics. I am doing several mite drop tests now. This is the only thing I have treated my bees with over the last year.
I do spot the queen videos. And you don't see many bee keepers giving closeups of their bees combs very much. Kinda like a privacy issue. But 99% of mine are clean as can be. No DWV, K wing, chewing brood caps. I would almost say all those spot the queen videos are a testament to this vaporizer.
I need to find someone that hasn't treated yet for this fall. That would tell me alot more.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Struttinbuck said:


> I do spot the queen videos.


I like those videos, I use them to up my skills, and I don't know what it is, but the sight of a queen makes me feel good. The level of excitement I feel when spotting one of my own queens walking on the combs is certainly not what I expected when I got into bees.

Keep us posted on how this unit performs in the long game. I don't vaporize now but part of that is because I don't like the whole cumbersome process when I only have 3 to do. I do OA dribble, 3 syringes in a small bucket and that is all I need to take with me. This tiny unit is something similar.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I'm very impressed, thanks for posting. I also watched your vid of the over view/workings of the unit itself, very enlightening. Gives a very good detailed overview of the unit and what you've done. I'm betting you'll do well in sales when you bring it to market.


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## Johnnymms (Feb 7, 2020)

How many treatments do you average per charge of butane?


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

ursa_minor said:


> I like those videos, I use them to up my skills, and I don't know what it is, but the sight of a queen makes me feel good. The level of excitement I feel when spotting one of my own queens walking on the combs is certainly not what I expected when I got into bees.
> 
> Keep us posted on how this unit performs in the long game. I don't vaporize now but part of that is because I don't like the whole cumbersome process when I only have 3 to do. I do OA dribble, 3 syringes in a small bucket and that is all I need to take with me. This tiny unit is something similar.


Spotting the queen was so hard for me at first. It was very frustrating. Now I can't see how it was ever an issue. And there are so many times it was a huge relief to see them in the hive. Like she literally just saved a hive.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Johnnymms said:


> How many treatments do you average per charge of butane?


I haven't attempted to efficiently do any hives yet. Right now it takes 10 seconds to refuel and I will get 3 hives complete without any focus on trying to get any number done. If I was to guess, If I would do like an efficient speed round. I would guess 10 or more. Thank You for that question. I need to do that and document it.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

RayMarler said:


> I'm very impressed, thanks for posting. I also watched your vid of the over view/workings of the unit itself, very enlightening. Gives a very good detailed overview of the unit and what you've done. I'm betting you'll do well in sales when you bring it to market.


If it's as effective as the other vaporizers then yes. I hope shes a home run.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

The O.C.V. had a very good mite drop test today and now has me convinced to start building them. It is patent pending. So hopefully I can get a few made before China gets ahold of them.  The I-Phone of vaporizers.


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## Zippy69 (Sep 5, 2021)

Nice, but looking at it I see similar items for sale in the UK as well as other sources in US. This is great but patent pending….nope. Already been done. IMHO


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Zippy69 said:


> Nice, but looking at it I see similar items for sale in the UK as well as other sources in US. This is great but patent pending….nope. Already been done. IMHO


You have to admit, You ever see a torch directly blow on to a piece of steel in contact with another peice for an extended period of time , then someone grab it with their bare hands?  Even I am still trying to figure that one out.


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## GovtMule66 (Jun 7, 2019)

Zippy69 said:


> Nice, but looking at it I see similar items for sale in the UK as well as other sources in US. This is great but patent pending….nope. Already been done. IMHO


I'm not sure about the legal side of patents but you are correct about multiple butane vaporizers already being on the open market. The UK's version of the Gas-Vap is the most popular version I've seen people on YouTube purchase & review but there is also a Easy-Vap Vaporizer made & sold by Weller Bee Supply in Mansfield, OH. The OP's vaporizer is made slightly different but I'm not sure if those details would be enough to obtain a patent or not.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

Those things are no good unless temperature is controlled, or it can get too hot and just turn the OA to Formic acid, which wouldn't do anything with just a flash treatment like that. Looks like yours has a thermometer, nice.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

ifixoldhouses said:


> Those things are no good unless temperature is controlled, or it can get too hot and just turn the OA to Formic acid, which wouldn't do anything with just a flash treatment like that. Looks like yours has a thermometer, nice.


That is what Medhat Nasr was talking about in this youtube conference on oxalic acid for varoa control . 




At around 34:00 minutes he goes into the need for a temperature control on OAV applicators. Some might look like they are working with all the fumes but without a temp control much of that can be just useless vapour.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Estimated 160 count mite drop.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

I really appreciate you guys. But thats the thing about temperature inside a vaporizer. Yall know how alot of the vaporizers are plugging up at the outlet and spitting liquid out the end of it? Well what that is is the acid changing state back into a liquid. But not because of too much heat. But because of not enough. And the thing I want you to notice is....... that it changed back......... Into a liquid. 
The whole changing state process is crazy. So I am hoping to come up with a test putting the OCV against an electric vaporizer head to head. And to actually show evidence of the effectivness of them both. I think it has to be along the lines of mite drop boards. First 3 days, use the electric, next 3 use the OCV , electric again 3 days later, then 1 more time for the OCV. Average the mite drop counts and determine things from there.
If anybody has an electric vaporizer anywhere near southern W.V. I could drive a ways.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well with a name like Struttinbuck I was expecting to see a Native American. Story behid your name Struttinbuck?

But anyhow, loved your accent, and the fact that in this hobby a guy can do a presentation in torn jeans and looking like a homeless person, but be taken seriously. You also seem pretty friendly and a guy I would like to meet. Have subscribed to your channel .

Didn't seem like a lot of mites on the drop board to me but of course we don't know how many in the hive to start with. First thing that struck me when I watched the video was temperature and conversion to formic. The gauge is probably slow and it's pretty likely a decent portion of that oxalic is being turned to formic. Time will tell if you are getting great results but if you discover you are not, temperature will be the thing to look at.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Oldtimer said:


> Well with a name like Struttinbuck I was expecting to see a Native American. Story behid your name Struttinbuck?
> 
> But anyhow, loved your accent, and the fact that in this hobby a guy can do a presentation in torn jeans and looking like a homeless person, but be taken seriously. You also seem pretty friendly and a guy I would like to meet. Have subscribed to your channel .
> 
> Didn't seem like a lot of mites on the drop board to me but of course we don't know how many in the hive to start with. First thing that struck me when I watched the video was temperature and conversion to formic. The gauge is probably slow and it's pretty likely a decent portion of that oxalic is being turned to formic. Time will tell if you are getting great results but if you discover you are not, temperature will be the thing to look at.


Thank you Oldtimer. I am a very proud grease monkey for sure. Now Mrs. Struttinbuck being a director of housekeeping at a hospital agrees with you that while I am working, I look like a homeless person. Lol. But she claims I clean up well. So I think it's a win win for me.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Oldtimer said:


> torn jeans and looking like a homeless person,


But, but, I only dress this way because I _own _a home


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Funny story, elderly electrician used to live a few doors down from us, long beard and tatty clothes but he was a successful electrician and owned a very upmarket home. But each Sunday afternoon if the weather was good he would go down to the park that adjoined our houses and sit there a couple of hours enjoying the sun and watching the kids play sports and stuff. He would take a 6 pack of beer and slowly drink it, returning home once the beer was finished.

But my (then) wife and I thought it was hysterical, we could see him out our window and he really did look like a complete down and out, I don't know if he ever realised. Women with children would give him a wide berth 😄.

Anyhow, sorry about the slight aside, back to topic .


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Oldtimer said:


> Well with a name like Struttinbuck I was expecting to see a Native American. Story behid your name Struttinbuck?
> 
> But anyhow, loved your accent, and the fact that in this hobby a guy can do a presentation in torn jeans and looking like a homeless person, but be taken seriously. You also seem pretty friendly and a guy I would like to meet. Have subscribed to your channel .
> 
> Didn't seem like a lot of mites on the drop board to me but of course we don't know how many in the hive to start with. First thing that struck me when I watched the video was temperature and conversion to formic. The gauge is probably slow and it's pretty likely a decent portion of that oxalic is being turned to formic. Time will tell if you are getting great results but if you discover you are not, temperature will be the thing to look at.





Oldtimer said:


> Funny story, elderly electrician used to live a few doors down from us, long beard and tatty clothes but he was a successful electrician and owned a very upmarket home. But each Sunday afternoon if the weather was good he would go down to the park that adjoined our houses and sit there a couple of hours enjoying the sun and watching the kids play sports and stuff. He would take a 6 pack of beer and slowly drink it, returning home once the beer was finished.
> 
> But my (then) wife and I thought it was hysterical, we could see him out our window and he really did look like a complete down and out, I don't know if he ever realised. Women with children would give him a wide berth 😄.
> 
> Anyhow, sorry about the slight aside, back to topic .





Oldtimer said:


> Funny story, elderly electrician used to live a few doors down from us, long beard and tatty clothes but he was a successful electrician and owned a very upmarket home. But each Sunday afternoon if the weather was good he would go down to the park that adjoined our houses and sit there a couple of hours enjoying the sun and watching the kids play sports and stuff. He would take a 6 pack of beer and slowly drink it, returning home once the beer was finished.
> 
> But my (then) wife and I thought it was hysterical, we could see him out our window and he really did look like a complete down and out, I don't know if he ever realised. Women with children would give him a wide berth 😄.
> 
> Anyhow, sorry about the slight aside, back to topic .


Features and highlights 
1. No investing in extension cords, deep cycle battery's ,inverters or generators. 
2. Once you buy this, All that's left for you to buy is a can of butane and some oxalic acid. 
3. Torch support 
4. Zero weight bearing on head of torch 
5. Reliable ignition with open burner head 
6. Burner retention ring (holds torch secure and precisely directs the flame) 
7. Detachable capsule and torch support(For other future methods of treatment and different torches) 
8. Vaporizing capsule 
9. In line temperature port (In the vapor stream) 
10. Stainless steel vapor outlet (nothing bending this insertion tube) 
11. Large capacity dosage cap (8 grams O.A.) 
12. Rumble cap relief port 
13. Quality butane torch
14. Propane attachment soon
15. All materials purchased in the U.S. 
16. Device designed and made in the U.S.


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## fatoz (Aug 29, 2016)

GovtMule66 said:


> I'm not sure about the legal side of patents but you are correct about multiple butane vaporizers already being on the open market. The UK's version of the Gas-Vap is the most popular version I've seen people on YouTube purchase & review but there is also a Easy-Vap Vaporizer made & sold by Weller Bee Supply in Mansfield, OH. The OP's vaporizer is made slightly different but I'm not sure if those details would be enough to obtain a patent or not.
> 
> View attachment 65737


It's good to see fellow keepers who are trying to revisit and/or refine various OAV tools. However, something like this at 



 is a fairly good design. They seem to take care of the cap issue.


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## GovtMule66 (Jun 7, 2019)

fatoz said:


> It's good to see fellow keepers who are trying to revisit and/or refine various OAV tools. However, something like this at
> 
> 
> 
> is a fairly good design. They seem to take care of the cap issue.


I really like really this design and not having to mess with caps is a bonus. His temperature gauge was reading 200 Celsius or 392 Fahrenheit which is right on the money with other vaporizers on the market. If a person had 5-10 hives all these would be nice choices.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GovtMule66 said:


> *I really like really this design and not having to mess with caps is a bonus.* His temperature gauge was reading 200 Celsius or 392 Fahrenheit which is right on the money with other vaporizers on the market. If a person had 5-10 hives all these would be nice choices.


If the band heater type could be equipped with a metering feed plunger instead of the caps that would be my ideal. The butane heating does make you independant of power sources though.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Oldtimer said:


> Funny story, elderly electrician used to live a few doors down from us, long beard and tatty clothes but he was a successful electrician and owned a very upmarket home. But each Sunday afternoon if the weather was good he would go down to the park that adjoined our houses and sit there a couple of hours enjoying the sun and watching the kids play sports and stuff. He would take a 6 pack of beer and slowly drink it, returning home once the beer was finished.
> 
> But my (then) wife and I thought it was hysterical, we could see him out our window and he really did look like a complete down and out, I don't know if he ever realised. Women with children would give him a wide berth 😄.
> 
> Anyhow, sorry about the slight aside, back to topic .





fatoz said:


> It's good to see fellow keepers who are trying to revisit and/or refine various OAV tools. However, something like this at
> 
> 
> 
> is a fairly good design. They seem to take care of the cap issue.


I like his design. But why is anyone concerned about temperature of the device. Every substance follows it's pressure temperature relationship. And the OCV is the only device presently taking advantage of that. All the other vaporizers are emmitting hot liquid into the hive. If 1 drop of 330 degree acid hits a queen, shes done. The pressure temperature relationship is pure physics. I went to a year of stationary engineering school for this. There is not a substance in this world that does not follow it's pressure temperature relationship.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

The temperature of the device has nothing to do with the temperature of the substance exiting the device. Every vaporizer out there is spraying hot liquid acid at 330 degrees inside the hive. How do I know the acid is coming out of the other devices at 330 degrees? Because that is its vaporization temperature. It is still changing state as it is leaving all the other devices.
The only effect the temperature of the device has on the substance inside the device is how fast the substance vaporizes. Many of the other vaporizers don't even take the temperature of the vapor leaving the device. They are measuring the temperature of the heating pan. And I am not making a grammatical error when I say oxalic acid is vaporizing out of a vaporizer. Only under the right conditions can OA sublimate. But otherwise in every vaporizer out there OA is changing state 2 times. From a powder to a liquid, then a liquid to a vapor. And the reason for that is due to speed of raising the temperature. If you allowed it to sublimate, It would take hours.
The OCV is the I-Phone of vaporizers.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Struttinbuck, what is your take on the PH Ds saying to keep the temperature below 382F? Otherwise, the OA breaks down to CO, CO2, and water. I have heard this a number of times in you tube videos. I think it was the latest NY Wellness video on OA was the latest.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Just like this one spraying out stuff at 330F


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

When you hear the story about OA breaking down to CO, CO2 and water who do you believe, the PHD in entemology or the PHD in chemistry?


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

mgolden said:


> Struttinbuck, what is your take on the PH Ds saying to keep the temperature below 382F? Otherwise, the OA breaks down to CO, CO2, and water. I have heard this a number of times in you tube videos. I think it was the latest NY Wellness video on OA was the latest.


Are you asking me to brag?  I really hate to but.  I went to stationary engineering school. I know, that sounds like reverse condascending, but I went to a school that taught nothing but latent heat, sensible heat,conduction, convection, radiation, specific heat, pressure, Boyles law, Charles law, General law of perfect gas, Dalton's law, azeotropes , refrigerant blends. The school I went to taught us how to run nuclear power plants. Let alone coal fired, gas fired and heating boilers in general. It was a school that was so specific on all the laws of heat that the electricity and general mechanics were almost a side lesson. It was called West Side Institute Of Technology in Cleveland Ohio. Back in 93. Commercial refrigeration was a spinoff of running powerplants. DDC controls of HVAC and lighting was the latest technology at the time, so I chose to go the Commercial Refrigeration route.
So the issue of any substance changing state has been my life sine 1993. The OCV will be as effective ,safer and easier to operate than any other vaporizer currently on the market. Safer to the user and to the queens.
I could go on. But those are the qualifications I consider relevent to this. It is patent pending and I hope all these treatments go out of business because the bees won't need them anymore. Like truthfully. The people going treatment free are the real pioneers here.
Thank you for asking MGolden., I need this to be discussed further.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

johno said:


> When you hear the story about OA breaking down to CO, CO2 and water who do you believe, the PHD in entemology or the PHD in chemistry?


The substance coming out of that unit has been subcooled and is no longer in a vapor form.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

You claimed that every vaporizer out there is spraying hot liquid into the hive at 330F, I am just showing you it is not so. But then again I never went to the refrigeration school in Ohio


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

johno said:


> You claimed that every vaporizer out there is spraying hot liquid into the hive at 330F, I am just showing you it is not so. But then again I never went to the refrigeration school in Ohio


Stationary Engineering School. 
But if its not in a vapor form how is it going to travel throughout the hive. The only way for us to get OA as a vapor at a temperature that will not scald our skin would be to run it into a vacuum chamber.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

johno said:


> You claimed that every vaporizer out there is spraying hot liquid into the hive at 330F, I am just showing you it is not so. But then again I never went to the refrigeration school in Ohio


And I give you props Johno for your work. Full respect from me.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

The heat boils off the molecular water and vaporizes the acid. however anything that drips out of the nozzle is from the water that has condensed in the outlet so there will be no gaseos vapor coming out of the nozzle only a particulate vapor which has cooled so that it will settle on your arm 3" away without burning. but that is with a vaporizer that is set at 450F. The unit is set at 450F as if you go lower you have a greater chance of the nozzle plugging with the condensed water and OA particles.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

johno said:


> The heat boils off the molecular water and vaporizes the acid. however anything that drips out of the nozzle is from the water that has condensed in the outlet so there will be no gaseos vapor coming out of the nozzle only a particulate vapor which has cooled so that it will settle on your arm 3" away without burning. but that is with a vaporizer that is set at 450F. The unit is set at 450F as if you go lower you have a greater chance of the nozzle plugging with the condensed water and OA particles.


If you watch OA vaporize, it goes from a powder, it melts into a liquid, then it is gone. That is the same thing ice does. it changes state 2 times inside a vaporizer. And I specify (Inside of a vaporizer)


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

johno said:


> The heat boils off the molecular water and vaporizes the acid. however anything that drips out of the nozzle is from the water that has condensed in the outlet so there will be no gaseos vapor coming out of the nozzle only a particulate vapor which has cooled so that it will settle on your arm 3" away without burning. but that is with a vaporizer that is set at 450F. The unit is set at 450F as if you go lower you have a greater chance of the nozzle plugging with the condensed water and OA particles.


All I can say about this demonstration is that this acid is no longer in a vaporous state. I cannot see it going throughout the hive.
And I also do not hesitate handling the substance in experimental ways like you showed. LOL. Dude, I thought I had kuhonnes.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

If you can set your temperature to 220F then you will see the acid get wet from the molecular water being released and this water will boil off and you will be left with a dry lump of oxalic acid. You can then set up your temperature to around 300F then that lump will sublimate just like dry ice and that will be a gas vapor for a short while and it will not go far before ite temperature drops below about 280F and it will then condense into tiny crystal particles and this is the vapor you see coming out of a vaporizer at abot 300 To 400F. And that is why you see those tiny crystals all gathered onto the hait on amy arm. About 4 years ago when I was working on this system I noticed during the winter mornings that the cloud of vapor from the vaporizer being much warmer that the outside air would rise up quite highand you could see the sunlight twinkling on the millions of crystals in the sky and that is when I realised that the vapor was a particulate vapor and that fancy organic masks were not necessary, all that was required was a good fit with a good particulate mask, which cuts out a beard and mustache you can ask Adolf Hitler about that one.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

johno said:


> If you can set your temperature to 220F then you will see the acid get wet from the molecular water being released and this water will boil off and you will be left with a dry lump of oxalic acid. You can then set up your temperature to around 300F then that lump will sublimate just like dry ice and that will be a gas vapor for a short while and it will not go far before ite temperature drops below about 280F and it will then condense into tiny crystal particles and this is the vapor you see coming out of a vaporizer at abot 300 To 400F. And that is why you see those tiny crystals all gathered onto the hait on amy arm. About 4 years ago when I was working on this system I noticed during the winter mornings that the cloud of vapor from the vaporizer being much warmer that the outside air would rise up quite highand you could see the sunlight twinkling on the millions of crystals in the sky and that is when I realised that the vapor was a particulate vapor and that fancy organic masks were not necessary, all that was required was a good fit with a good particulate mask, which cuts out a beard and mustache you can ask Adolf Hitler about that one.


Yes my beard has caused some issues for sure.  There is no mask of any type that works for me. So i'm thinking another inventive individual should get a snorkel mouthpiece type of deal, put a filter on the end of it so I can buy one. LOL.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

johno said:


> If you can set your temperature to 220F then you will see the acid get wet from the molecular water being released and this water will boil off and you will be left with a dry lump of oxalic acid. You can then set up your temperature to around 300F then that lump will sublimate just like dry ice and that will be a gas vapor for a short while and it will not go far before ite temperature drops below about 280F and it will then condense into tiny crystal particles and this is the vapor you see coming out of a vaporizer at abot 300 To 400F. And that is why you see those tiny crystals all gathered onto the hait on amy arm. About 4 years ago when I was working on this system I noticed during the winter mornings that the cloud of vapor from the vaporizer being much warmer that the outside air would rise up quite highand you could see the sunlight twinkling on the millions of crystals in the sky and that is when I realised that the vapor was a particulate vapor and that fancy organic masks were not necessary, all that was required was a good fit with a good particulate mask, which cuts out a beard and mustache you can ask Adolf Hitler about that one.


I totally agree with you on the changing states in that slow fashion. But when we put OA into a chamber that is over 330 F. The changing of state happens much too rapidly for it to sublimate. And it will literally go through the all 3 phases of state that all the other substances go through too. So the cooling it has from the point of vaporization to the outlet of the device causes it to recrystallize. And that is one of the issues I am addressing with the OCV. Minimal liquid coming out of the device. No plugging up, 3/8' stainless steel outlet tube. Almost impossible to bend.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

This could solve the beard issue. 

Alex


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

Says right on the new label 
Wear a minimum of a NIOSH-approved elastomeric half mask respirator with acid gas 
cartridges and combination N, R, or P filters


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Dont care what they say on their new label N95 works for me.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

What caused those crystals to rise up in the air? That's why you need a respirator for gas. J


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Fivejay, on the winter mornings when I was doing tests the temperature was maybe less than 10C or 50 F so the vapor out of the vaporizer was much warmer and the cloud went up quite high so that you could see through the cloud into the early morning sun. oxalic acid cannot exist as a gas at these temperatures or even above a 100F or 38C amd it could never sparkle in the sunlight like those little crystals did. We cannot change the laws of physics.Hot air rises.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

You know more than me about the properties of oa, sublimation, gas,for sure. I barely got by in hs chemistry. Just common sense to me that it looks like a gas/ vapor as it leaks out of a hive and we know it crystalizes when it cools. I can smell it in vapor form too, so I will stick with my respirator. J


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## Boondocks (Sep 16, 2020)

This thread reminded me of a photo I had seen a while back. They used hollow blackgum logs for the hives.




















Bee Keeping - Digital Heritage


The practice of bee keeping entered Appalachia with the earliest European settlers, and honey was a prized sweetener long before granulated sugar was available. As late as the mid-20th century, most mountain farmers kept hives and practiced the skills of bee keeping. . .



digitalheritage.org


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Fivej said:


> You know more than me about the properties of oa, sublimation, gas,for sure. I barely got by in hs chemistry. Just common sense to me that it looks like a gas/ vapor as it leaks out of a hive and we know it crystalizes when it cools. I can smell it in vapor form too, so I will stick with my respirator. J


When I was doing these tests there was also the theory about the OA vapor breaking down to formic and other stuff, so when I saw that the OA vapor was particulate and not a gas I would make a plume from the vaporizer and walk into it with an N95 paper mask and try to see if I could smell any formic acid. I there was much formic there you will smell it for sure, but there was no formic smell there and no OA smell either. Seeing that the N95 mask was much more comfortable to wear than the respirator I have used the n95 when I felt the need of a respirator. By the way I sometimes get these big ants hanging around my bee feeders, If you grab one and squash it between your fingers you can get a smell of formic.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

What are the benefits to allowing the OA to recrystallize inside the device ? And are there times that acid will pool up where you insert the tool? Or dripping out of the tip?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Benefits have nothing to do with this, once the oxalic acid gas cools down below 280F it will go back to a solid but in tiny crystal form. The air directly around the nozzle will be no more than 100F so there is no option. The liquid you see is from condensing steam from the water that is boiled off from the OA. If this is a problem you can always increase the temperature on the controller to keep the nozzle at a higher temperature. You get so much vapor filling the hive that any water and acid that drips from the tip of the vaporizer is of little consequence.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

johno said:


> Benefits have nothing to do with this, once the oxalic acid gas cools down below 280F it will go back to a solid but in tiny crystal form. The air directly around the nozzle will be no more than 100F so there is no option. The liquid you see is from condensing steam from the water that is boiled off from the OA. If this is a problem you can always increase the temperature on the controller to keep the nozzle at a higher temperature. You get so much vapor filling the hive that any water and acid that drips from the tip of the vaporizer is of little consequence.


The units plug up, they spit liquid, they pop caps. There are puddles of acid which offsets the weight that was measured into the device. The fog seen is not just a vapor. It is saturated. Or the equivelent of wet steam. Sure it can be used to run through a radiator, but you sure can't run it through a turbine or a piston. Water hammer is the equivelent to that. 
Same thing in a hive, the crystals are much, much larger while in the saturated or wet steam state. If the acid never gets past it's saturation temperature. It's spraying liquid.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Did you take a good look at all that wet steam and wet acid on my arm, talk is cheap it is the ammount of vapor in the hive that counts.and believe me I have treated with a plexi cover on top of hives to see the coverage of vapor, and because of these tests it brought me to treat from higher in the hive if possible.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

johno said:


> Did you take a good look at all that wet steam and wet acid on my arm, talk is cheap it is the ammount of vapor in the hive that counts.and believe me I have treated with a plexi cover on top of hives to see the coverage of vapor, and because of these tests it brought me to treat from higher in the hive if possible.


Can't deny the problems all the other vaporizers have had. The OCV is the only vaporizer addressing them all.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

You are obviously speaking for yourself for something which has not passed the test of time.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

johno said:


> Did you take a good look at all that wet steam and wet acid on my arm, talk is cheap it is the ammount of vapor in the hive that counts.and believe me I have treated with a plexi cover on top of hives to see the coverage of vapor, and because of these tests it brought me to treat from higher in the hive if possible.


The handle of the OCV doesn't even need insulated. With a torch blowing on a piece of copper right above it. No insulation needed between the capsule and the handle.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

johno said:


> You are obviously speaking for yourself for something which has not passed the test of time.


The focus of where the heat is transferring too is pure physics.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

johno said:


> You are obviously speaking for yourself for something which has not passed the test of time.





johno said:


> You are obviously speaking for yourself for something which has not passed the test of time.


I agree on the test of time. Thats why i have done mite drops. And continuing them. And who else do you see doing mite drops then getting magnified closeups of the mites. No denying the OCV kills mites.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

You were correct in your thinking about the raising the temperature would help with things not plugging up. But simply raising the temperature still won't solve the problem.Navy Boiler operators, Power house men will know what I'm referring to. Simply raising the temperature doesn't change it's pressure temperature relationship. Or wet steam. You have to put it through another process. And thats why I changed the name of my device from the patented name to Organic chemical vaporizer. Some Chinese company will steal this device if they figure out what it's doing.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Thats the stuff re write the laws of physics, super heat the OA that should dry the wet steam or maybe we could add a few condensate traps, that should do it. there's nothing like a little smoke and mirrors to realy baffle brains.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

johno said:


> and because of these tests it brought me to treat from higher in the hive if possible.


I have been using a 1/4" hole in the solid bottom board, at what point in the back side of the hive would be better?
I lost the instructions that came with my vaporizer and do not remember if it was in them on this forum you were talking about where to insert the nozzle for best results.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I found that the vapor beeing forced into the hive actually displaces air and when the top of the hive is closedm the vapor does not reach everywhere, so I found that by treating between the brood boxes I got better coverage up high and it all ends up down below anyway as all the particles fall down when coolled. So a 7/32 hole made in the frame rest area of the lower deep or second medium if you use 3 medium boxes does the trick. You need to make this hole as close to the top edge of the box in the middle so that the nozzle comes out between the 2 center frames. So you are actually treating into the space between the lower and upper frames. 



 You can see the video I made about 3 years ago


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

johno said:


> Thats the stuff re write the laws of physics, super heat the OA that should dry the wet steam or maybe we could add a few condensate traps, that should do it. there's nothing like a little smoke and mirrors to realy baffle brains.


And to think the PHD guys had everyone afraid to heat up their vaporizers. So why didn't you smell formic acid when you stepped into that cloud of it? And thats the rest of the story.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I block the entrance with a wet rag, my inner covers are made to let the bees be able to get between the inner and outer cover with an opening at the front to give air circulation.

OAV in the bottom board there will be vapor come out of the front top of the hive, meaning that vapor went all the way to the top of the frames and into the space between the inner and outer cover. Pretty good coverage I would think, but not an expert.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I just noticed that the vapor did not always get into the top corners as the air seemed to get trapped there, so by lifting the input above the second lot of mediums I found a better coverage of vapor. Why use a wet rag at the entrance, you are inviting the OA dust to settle on the wet rag get disolved and wear out your rags much quicker. I steal my wifes dish towels but they have to last me or I will get into trouble stealing more. When the are dry I just take diagonal corners and roll them by swinging them between ny 2 hands then dropping the rolled towel over the entrance and just pushing it in a little with my hive tool, works great when there is no entrace piece in the hive. Thats how I struggled to treat with 2 pans. Now by the time my honey is off I have all entrances reduced to little more than a 1/2" cause I have major problems with robbing.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I use a wet rag because they are easier to plug the entrance, the weight of the water in the rag makes it conform to the entrance better.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

If anyone is interested in the O.C.V. just send an email to

[email protected]

I am still running tests but if I could get an idea of what kind of interest there is in it, the ball might start rolling a whole lot quicker. There has already been some interest but I really need to guage just how much.
Again simply email. And thank you.


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## tikkay (Feb 10, 2017)

johno said:


> If you can set your temperature to 220F then you will see the acid get wet from the molecular water being released and this water will boil off and you will be left with a dry lump of oxalic acid. You can then set up your temperature to around 300F then that lump will sublimate just like dry ice and that will be a gas vapor for a short while and it will not go far before ite temperature drops below about 280F and it will then condense into tiny crystal particles and this is the vapor you see coming out of a vaporizer at abot 300 To 400F. And that is why you see those tiny crystals all gathered onto the hait on amy arm. About 4 years ago when I was working on this system I noticed during the winter mornings that the cloud of vapor from the vaporizer being much warmer that the outside air would rise up quite highand you could see the sunlight twinkling on the millions of crystals in the sky and that is when I realised that the vapor was a particulate vapor and that fancy organic masks were not necessary, all that was required was a good fit with a good particulate mask, which cuts out a beard and mustache you can ask Adolf Hitler about that one.


This observation is interesting. Just yesterday, I realized I’d forgotten my respirator (fitted with organic acid cartridges) after I arrived at bee yard and was setting up to OAV. I really didn’t want to drive back home and set the day back, but really didn’t want to OAV w/o my respirator as I’ve caught small inhalation’s of Oxalic vapor in my lungs before and found it quite disagreeable. 
pondering my next move, I remembered the N95 mask in the truck. I figured to use it would be folly, but decided to give it a go and see what happens.
Nothing happened. It was a completely uneventful session. The N95 seemed to work just fine. I figured I’d gotten lucky and swung by the house and grabbed my respirator on my way to next bee yard.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I am a lucky guy cause I get lucky every time I use my N95 mask, and with that one way valve on the front makes it much more comfortable and coller than the rubber respirators


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

G3farms said:


> I use a wet rag because they are easier to plug the entrance, the weight of the water in the rag makes it conform to the entrance better.


I don't even use a rag, just pack more oa in the bowl. Those rags get you stung up.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

The OCV up close


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

The Relief Vent In Action.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

The fix for the acid timing drop out of the dose cup is a rubber thimble instead of a copper cap . So it is still a peice of copper tubing fitting down into the capsule bevause I beleive that 8 gram dose is going to be valuable real soon.. But now it can be easily depressed and the acid charge drops immediately. Will have it documented soon.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

After getting input from several bee keepers. Pricing is always an issue. Sometimes good, sometimes not so good. But either way what I am going to try to do is give an introductory price of $180.00. Then If you don't mind using crypto currency, a sale price of $150.00 if paid in crypto. Bitcoin is the largest crypto, but can accept any crypto from one of the top 10 crypto's. If your not familiar with crypto, you want to research first as to where you obtain it.
1. Cash App(If you are not currently a cashapp user, they will pay me the $30. I give them your phone # or email ) No learning crypto. Just start a cash app account. Download the app through the link they send you after I get your referral information. Also easy way to buy bitcoin.
2. Kraken
3. Binance.us
4. Coinbase
And I would also make sure that any research you do stems off of one of these reputable markets.
If you are already familiar with crypto then Monero is my preferred coin. Ticker XMR.
It is a privacy coin thats as good as cash.

The main expense in this product as of now is time. As it grows things will get faster. Then also since combining stainless steel with copper, that is the second highest cost factor with having to join the materials with a braze and flux that is at least 45% silver. So with the time and material, for now this is the best I can do.
Also another factor in considering prices, there is no usable advantage an electric vaporizer has over the OCV. The only advantage whatsoever is availability for now. The vaporizer companies didn't know how their process worked and that halted progress in the development of easier more economical vaporizers.
Again I have a list of customers and everything is more than confidential. Do not message on the personal messaging of beesource, unless you don't mind its public. If public messaging is no concern then no problem. Preferred method of contact is.
Carl Martin
[email protected]
304-712-2592


https://martin-manufacturing.square.site


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

During this month of November. I plan to treat several hives with sticky boards on them while they are broodless. For now this seems to be the most feasible most accurate way to guage how effective a mite treatment is. And the way to get the percent effectivness of the treatment is going to work as such.
1. Verify a hive is broodless
2. Perform the treatment with the OCV(Or your preferred treatment or device) first on a day with the temperature ranging in the 40's to ensure alot of bees are inside the hive yet they have broken cluster. This should ensure pheretic mite exposure to the OA is at a maximum.
3. Wait at least 3 days and maybe more depending on the weather. Do the mite count. (Since the mites will not be reproducing during this broodless period, if you wait longer than 3 days to do the mite count, it will not effect any total numbers.) The mites that made it through the treatment will just continue on.
4. Clean the sticky board.
5. Treat again with another trusted form of treatment. This next treatment has to be a trusted and well known one because we need to trust this next treatment kills every single mite in the hive.
6. Again at least a 3 day waiting period and do the mite count.
7. Results: If there are zero mites on the second mite count then you can say the first treatment killed 100% of the mites
8. If there is any number above zero mites , then that number can be compared to the first mite drop number and a percentage can be assigned.
The more of this kind of testing done, the more of an average percent will begin to show a true percent effective kill rate on mites.
This can be done with any treatment, any device but the key is the hive must be broodless.

Does anyone consider a treatment such as apivar a 100% kill rate on mites. Especially at lower temperatures like in the 40's and 50's.
The more people that do this test with any device or treatment. The more It will help all of us beekeepers in many ways in telling how effective our treatments are and if some treatments are losing their effectivness.( such as apivar )?
The hive should be mite free for the longest time of the year.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

No method claims to be 100% effective.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

bushpilot said:


> No method claims to be 100% effective.


Gotcha, And I don't know if I have ever seen any effective by percentage rates.
Well I'm thinking this is a good way to do it. The broodless period can give us all kinds of good information.
It would have to be the treatments you can use in colder weather though. That would knock Formic pro out of it.
Whatever the case may be . If you wait for a substantial amount of time between the first and second treatment the second mite count should tell you alot. Especially if the second count is higher than the first. That would be a whammy there now. :/


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## b33keeper (Aug 9, 2021)

An afterthought after my last post: If, in fact, it is the uncondensed, supercooled OA in the hive that is the effective part, then adding a measured airflow into the OA vapor mix to dilute the vapor, thusly interfering with molecules bumping together, might work better. Causing a slower condensation, less in the tube and more inside the hive, might be the answer to better results. Temperature might not be the variable that influences effectiveness, but rather than that, concentration of uncondensed molecules inside the hive. I bet I could use a smoker bellows somehow to test this out.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

b33keeper said:


> An afterthought after my last post: If, in fact, it is the uncondensed, supercooled OA in the hive that is the effective part, then adding a measured airflow into the OA vapor mix to dilute the vapor, thusly interfering with molecules bumping together, might work better. Causing a slower condensation, less in the tube and more inside the hive, might be the answer to better results. Temperature might not be the variable that influences effectiveness, but rather than that, concentration of uncondensed molecules inside the hive. I bet I could use a smoker bellows somehow to test this out.


The reason why I added a thermometer to the OCV, run it up to 500-600 degrees. Then show mite kills similiar to the other devices was to prove to everyone that the temperature of the device has little effect on the temperature of the chemical being vaporized. These little devices us bee keepers are using are nowhere near capable of breaking down a molecule in the amount of time, surface area and temperature difference we are dealing with. We would need to superheat the OA over 30 degrees to get it to start breaking down.
The effectivness of both the butane and the electric devices are going to be similiar. 
The effectivness tests are just my own test I came up with. But with math, traits and weather. One style of treatment is going to be much more affordable and feasible to use.
And your idea of moving air through the vapor is a really good one. There is a company that makes one in that fashion. It literally BELLERS out the vapor. Like smoke clouds of it. It's main downfall is cost, size and ease of use. You fix those issues and you'll have a winner.
Here it is. But you can tell it needs some refining still. Its not a smooth operating setup.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

I never noticed the guy opening the hive lids before. LOL. I'm getting a kick out of that. You can't even see the frames. LOL.
Gotta hand it to the guy. He is a vaping wizard.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

The all copper construction of the other butane vaporizers transfers an extremely overwhelming amount of heat back to the burner head. The OCV being built in 2 different peices has reduced the amount of heat transfer back to the torch or the handle so much that it can be handled without gloves for a surprisingly long period of time. 
The I-Phone of vaporizers is here.

martin-manufacturing.square.site

Be blessed.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Strutt: I finally watched the video. Im not sure there are frames in there, i think its just empty boxes. I dont think he was wearing gloves, goggles, or mask of any sort. And that was a bunch of OA....


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Amibusiness said:


> Strutt: I finally watched the video. Im not sure there are frames in there, i think its just empty boxes. I dont think he was wearing gloves, goggles, or mask of any sort. And that was a bunch of OA....


I admire that guys work. That took some true developing or engineering to do. But you can fog a house with it.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Amibusiness said:


> Strutt: I finally watched the video. Im not sure there are frames in there, i think its just empty boxes. I dont think he was wearing gloves, goggles, or mask of any sort. And that was a bunch of OA....


They sell it for 3,000.00. I like the design but they don't have the bugs worked out at the 3,000.00 mark yet. It would truly have to be, pull trigger fog, go to next one.


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## shakenbake68 (10 mo ago)

Struttinbuck said:


> This one might change some things. It's definately effective. Now we are seeing just HOW effective.


Florida Labs would not provide me with a certificate of analysis for their Oxalic Acid. This provides the purity information. I'll never use their product again. Beware


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Been using it for around 10 years now without a problem. Florida Labs probably buys it in bulk from a manufacturer and probably goes on what the manufacturer gives them. I should imagine it would cost a pretty penny to get an accurate analysis done and Florida Labs does not want to go there, There is another company suppling the stuff but you wont know if it is from the same manufacturer anyhow or the expensive stuff EPA approved could also be the same stuff with silica added


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Struttinbuck said:


> I was testing the cap for it's POP OFF prevention deal. And yea. I got a good lung full for sure. I might have to wipe out the beard. But Mrs. Struttinbuck will make me ditch the You Tube chanel if I ditch the beard.  I'm going to have to figure out something because that stuff gave me a terrible headache through the whole afternoon. Not anything to mishandle.


The immediate reaction to OA in your lungs is inflammation, which mostly goes away in a few days. The long term reaction is scarring and damage to lung tissues - which is cumulative, largely irreversible, and can get worse over time, especially with repeated exposure. That can result in COPD, emphysema, etc. Not sure about pulmonary fibrosis.

Your lungs are the only part of your body where living tissue is exposed directly to the air. They are easily damaged.

If you use the vaporizer, get a good respirator. An N-100 or P-100 with a rubber face seal and cartridges. Not so much for the particulate rating as for the face seal. Test it using your smoker. If you can smell smoke, it isn't properly sealed.

As a side note, that sort of mask is great for changing diapers or cleaning up vomit. Yes, those are particulate aerosols. (You're welcome)


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

johno said:


> I am a lucky guy cause I get lucky every time I use my N95 mask, and with that one way valve on the front makes it much more comfortable and coller than the rubber respirators


The OA particles are quite large, and an N95 will stop them to the extent that it stops anything.

The main difficulty with the N95 masks is maintaining an adequate face seal. They aren't perfect, and I think they fit some people better than they fit others.

I like my N100, though it does get a bit heavy.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Works well for me, If you can smell the OA it is not working. Although I rarely use it , mostly in enclosed places which is not so often. mostly I am not at the hive being sublimated and try to keep the vapor within the hive so there are not the clouds of vapor that you see with the commercial vaporizers and really the only OAV youtend to come into contact with is when removing the cap the little that has condensed on the cap may still be smoking a little so generally hold my breath when removing the cap to place on the hive top. A little common sense can go a long way, but then again if you are accident prone OAV is not for you, come to think of it beekeeping would also not be so good either.


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## shakenbake68 (10 mo ago)

johno said:


> Been using it for around 10 years now without a problem. Florida Labs probably buys it in bulk from a manufacturer and probably goes on what the manufacturer gives them. I should imagine it would cost a pretty penny to get an accurate analysis done and Florida Labs does not want to go there, There is another company suppling the stuff but you wont know if it is from the same manufacturer anyhow or the expensive stuff EPA approved could also be the same stuff with silica added


I have my product before the EPA right now for registration. As you know this is a very time consuming expensive avenue to take. Part of the process was that I provide 5 Certificates of Analysis for each supplier of oxalic acid. Since Florida Labs is used by many beekeepers I actually started with them. I talked with a lady there and explained what I was doing and also messaged and left phone messages. Very evasive. I got 5 COA's from several other companies for my submission to EPA. None from Florida Labs. All oxalic acid is imported into the USA. All oxalic acid has COA's from the manufacturers. Oxalic Acid has an expiration date with these COA's and a list of impurities. Just seemed like they were hiding something. What happens to all the expired OA? My consultant I hired for my registration told me to avoid any who give a hard time to get COA. When I have my product registered I with have to have a COA's for the OA in each batch I make. The current EPA approved product also has dextrose which leaves a residue in your vaporizer. I sent you some of mine a while back. No residue. I am doing everything I can to keep the cost down so more beekeepers can use my product. I personally own 2 of your vaporizers, only units I own, and I used them through all the research and development of my product. I broke the handle from the blue box on one of them last January testing my tablets on a set up empty hive. Don't know if the plastic was too cold or if my old hands were too cold.

The Dept. of Ag is giving up the ownership of OA. I think Beekeepers are not going to be happy with the new owner.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Shakenbake68if you will send that vaporizer back to me I will re furbish it at no charge, and OK about the problem you have I did not realize that you were making the tablets. Actuall y I still have the sample but have just not got around to trying them out so I will do so next Monday. As far as I am aware OA does not change its state much over time as it seems a vary stable acid when dry. I personally think the EPA does not go about making it easy to get something into the market and you will have to pay to play which of course has to be carried into the price of the product.


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## shakenbake68 (10 mo ago)

johno said:


> Shakenbake68if you will send that vaporizer back to me I will re furbish it at no charge, and OK about the problem you have I did not realize that you were making the tablets. Actuall y I still have the sample but have just not got around to trying them out so I will do so next Monday. As far as I am aware OA does not change its state much over time as it seems a vary stable acid when dry. I personally think the EPA does not go about making it easy to get something into the market and you will have to pay to play which of course has to be carried into the price of the product.


I have paid and am playing! All in. LOL It wasn't your vaporizers fault. It was real cold and pushed down too hard to insert the cup of tablets. I agree about the OA being stable as long as it is kept dry and not too hot.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Send it back anyhow and I will repair it by putting all into a new housing. Send to: John Olivier, 418 Bundick Road, Lottsburg, VA 22511. and I will ship it back the day after I receive it.


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## shakenbake68 (10 mo ago)

Will do Johno. I'm the same guy you sent the blue cups to after my wife threw mine out with the packaging! Above and beyond.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Struttinbuck said:


> Not anything to mishandle.


For real. I spent half my life at a sawmill (or in woods). Getting soaked with various petrol products and working the rest of the day was fairly common.

Also took chem classes, and by and large the safety measures taken were overboard much of the time, but meant to develop solid habits, ... so a good thing. 

Haven’t studied OA, but I have a general sense of what will drop you in an ICU and what probably will not.

Really like the bottled gas idea for heat. Saw one from somewhere in Europe that had a gatlin gun revolving cup system.

But seriously Bro, get a mask, this stuff will kill your butt or worse. I got a slight whiff through the side of a cartridge mask and this stuff said, “I’ll burn your lungs out without any emotion.” 

It’s no wonder it ticks off the bees. 🐝


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

shakenbake68 said:


> I have paid and am playing! All in. LOL It wasn't your vaporizers fault. It was real cold and pushed down too hard to insert the cup of tablets. I agree about the OA being stable as long as it is kept dry and not too hot.


Hope you get approved, good luck.

I am not sure how regulations work in Canada but I bought my OA tablets from a reputable beekeeping supply store so they were approved for use up here. Medhat Nasr is behind these but I am not sure how long it took him to get the approval. He was contacted about using them for OAD and said it was fine so I am going to do my first ones this fall and see how much it simplifies the process, and how long it takes them to dissolve.


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## shakenbake68 (10 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> Hope you get approved, good luck.
> 
> I am not sure how regulations work in Canada but I bought my OA tablets from a reputable beekeeping supply store so they were approved for use up here. Medhat Nasr is behind these but I am not sure how long it took him to get the approval. He was contacted about using them for OAD and said it was fine so I am going to do my first ones this fall and see how much it simplifies the process, and how long it takes them to dissolve.


Mine dissolve just as quickly as powder


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

not sure the blower will help in post 81
seems if extra air were added to the mix more needs to come out of the hive and les would be in the hive, just a volume thing.

GG


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