# Do I have a Problem?



## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

Installed 2 3lb packages on Sunday Apr 12. The bees traveled by Truck from California to Iowa and were delayed a day due to rain. I did a fast queen release with Marshmallow. 
Hive #1 is being fed with ziplock Baggy method. Hive #2 is using a 2 gallon frame feeder.

3 days in on the 15th I was freaking...thinking i might have released the queen too early so I just peeked at them and removed empty queen cages. I didnt find the queens but they were both released as expected. No sign of queens. Not a lot of comb built out on the bare foundation yet either.

On Saturday Morning the 18th I attempted to do my first Full inspections looking at every frame. I opened Hive#1 and the ziplock baggy was in the bottom of the hive Dry as a bone. It was nearly full on the 15th. I had also left the feeder can from the packages in there and it still had a little left in them. So I was a bit freaked that they had burned through that much in 3 days and I would say that the bees seemed agitated maybe because they were fearing a shortage of syrup.

They were so agitated I couldnt complete a full inspection of that hive So I got them more food and closed them back up. I inspected Hive #2 with success found eggs and the queen and everything looks great.

On Sunday the 19th I did a full inspection of Hive #1 and looked at every frame. I DID NOT find the queen but I did find Eggs. I also found some unsettling other things. I think a queen cup and a few cells that had two eggs laid I also noticed one cell with an egg laid on the side wall.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Cant seem to see a problem from here.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

They are unlikely to have laying workers in only 7 days. You can also take comfort that new queens sometimes lay a bit funny (2 eggs etc) if they are short of room.

All you can do is wait till the brood is capped then check by peeling a few caps off to see if it's drone or worker. If it's drone your best use of the hive may be to combine with the other, let them build up strong and split later.


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> They are unlikely to have laying workers in only 7 days. You can also take comfort that new queens sometimes lay a bit funny (2 eggs etc) if they are short of room.
> 
> All you can do is wait till the brood is capped then check by peeling a few caps off to see if it's drone or worker. If it's drone your best use of the hive may be to combine with the other, let them build up strong and split later.


Well thats good to know. they definitely were short on room 9 frames of bare foundation. Probably would have been better to hold the queen in for 2-3 days despite the fact that the colony had already accepted her just to get the foundation built out a bit more.


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

Why would they be developing a queen cup?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Bees normally build a few, pretty much any hive you look in will have a few empty queen cell cups, they are of no concern unless they contain an egg or larva.


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## Pete O (Jul 13, 2013)

Just calm down. Get a grip on yourself. Everything looks fine. Leave the hive alone for another couple of weeks.


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

Pete O said:


> Just calm down. Get a grip on yourself. Everything looks fine. Leave the hive alone for another couple of weeks.


Well a couple weeks would be 14 days. Queen Lifecycle from egg to hatch is 16-18 days. We are 7 days from my original post.

Yesterday I checked the hive and I hadnt been in it all week because of colder (Low 30's overnight) and rainy weather. Im pretty sure my queen is gone or not laying anymore. 



















I found the above Yesterday afternoon.

Multiple capped queen cells at minimum are 8-9 days old. I would assume right at 8 days based on my picture posted on the 20th which was technically taken on the 19th. You can see other capped brood in the one picture. I saw no other cells with new eggs or larvae.

My guess... Queen was there originally but now she is not. The capped brood does not look like Drone Brood so Im assuming it was brood from the queen and not a Laying worker. I suppose its possible the Low cold temps killed her ability to lay. But I would have thought the inside of the hive was well above safe temps for her. I never removed frames unless it was above 50 F. 

My other hive is going gang busters and beautiful

Both packages installed on 4/12 15 days later the queen is gone??? Its still early here Do I try and buy a queen or let them Supersede one on their own. If Im 8 days into a queen cycle Im only 8-10 days from a hatch. A new queen would take a day or 2 to get and then 4-5 days minimum to be accepted by the new hive. Its kind of a wash either way isnt it?


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## VikingJim (Apr 26, 2015)

Just a guess but, you were feeding this hive with a baggie I believe, so I think your queen started out OK but died from 1. getting wet and chilled, or 2. drowned, or possibly 3. rolled while you were worried about the empty baggie on the bottom board. The queen cells look good though so I would just leave them alone to requeen themselves because, as you say you are only 8 days from hatching.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Or, they have decided to supersede for reasons unknown to anyone but them. At any rate, you have 2 fine looking cells, should make you a good queen. I have had packages supersede their queens about half the time. You will be fine. G


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

biggraham610 said:


> Or, they have decided to supersede for reasons unknown to anyone but them. At any rate, you have 2 fine looking cells, should make you a good queen. I have had packages supersede their queens about half the time. You will be fine. G


Actually there are more than those two I think there might be a 3 on that frame and maybe as many as 3-4 others on the other frames. Is that bad or are they just over zealous?


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I had a lot of this. This is my first real year as last year was hard learning. I have my queen on hold in a small nuc. I moved two cells and 3 frames to another nuc. I Culled the everything but two cell on the main hive. this weekend i expect to have queens in both the nuc and the main hive. If not, i may have to reintroduce the old queen.


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

I spoke with a local guy last night who has been keeping since the 50's. He advised me to cut out all but one queen cell. He also advised me that I still had about 30 days left before she starts laying assuming success. I dont have that kind of time so Im buying a queen today or tomorrow. As a side note I went through the hive last night and located 32 queen cells on 4 or 5 frames. They really wanted a leader!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

30 days? It'll be about 2 weeks.


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

JRG13 said:


> 30 days? It'll be about 2 weeks.


8-10 days left in cell, 6-10 days before she takes on on her mating flight after emerging, 2-3 days before she starts laying. About 24 days maybe 20 on the good side. That's the end of May, if supersedure is successful.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Hive Tool said:


> I spoke with a local guy last night who has been keeping since the 50's. He advised me to cut out all but one queen cell. He also advised me that I still had about 30 days left before she starts laying assuming success.


Buy a queen if you want, but given the state of this I'd probably just let them roll as they have planned. If you're looking for different genetics then buy. Buying a queen and having it shipped in and introduced is not without risk either. From what you have now, you should have eggs in less than 20 days, perhaps sooner. If you decide to not buy a queen, I do not agree with the advice to cut out all but one cell. However, you don't want 30+ cells either, leave about 4 of the nicest looking cells and let them sort it out. You can always use your other package to boost this one to help balance resources between them.


good luck


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>...and located 32 queen cells on 4 or 5 frames. 

That is a lot of queen cells for a supersedure... I think you fed them too much and they are about to swarm.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >...and located 32 queen cells on 4 or 5 frames.
> 
> That is a lot of queen cells for a supersedure... I think you fed them too much and they are about to swarm.


It's fascinating that a new package would do that. They've barely even drawn any comb, seems odd, but that certainly seems like the reasonable explaination.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> they are about to swarm.


I guess that's possible. I also thought the number of cells was extreme for supercedure. However swarm intent would assume that from package install on bare foundation to swarm mode took only 9-10 days. That would be pretty rare, don't you agree? 

Given the mix of assessments, perhaps you should hedge your bet and split it up into a few nucs?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It's fascinating that a new package would do that. They've barely even drawn any comb, seems odd, but that certainly seems like the reasonable explaination.

It happens to hundreds of new beekeepers every year that I hear from and probably thousands that I don't hear from. They are told to feed incessantly and all available space for the queen to lay in fills up with syrup and they swarm.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >It's fascinating that a new package would do that. They've barely even drawn any comb, seems odd, but that certainly seems like the reasonable explaination.
> 
> It happens to hundreds of new beekeepers every year that I hear from and probably thousands that I don't hear from. They are told to feed incessantly and all available space for the queen to lay in fills up with syrup and they swarm.


Hive Tool and I have be talking via PM and hadn't seen this thread until just now. I asked him how he was feeding and how much they'd taken. Knowing the weather he's been having (ours is similar), I can't imagine there being enough hours in the day to keep the syrup warm enough to allow that much to be taken. Maybe he's been warming it? It does look backfilled though, hard to know if that happened before or after, however.

Being new myself I don't really have much in the lines of actionable advice. They don't really seem to even have capped any syrup. Is it possible you just get a bad draw and these bees just wanted to swarm? I'm not questioning the fact that it happens and is feeding induced, that makes perfect sense. Just wonder how it doesn't happen nearly ALL the time to people who feed endlessly.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very interesting thread, it's got me stumped.

Based on pictures shown, looks like the queen stopped laying even though not all cells are backfilled there are still places she could lay if she wanted.

I too would have been very surprised at a 10 day old package swarming, but if MB has spoken with hundreds of people it happened to then must be true, long as they are correct in what they say. They could be confused with absconding or any number of maladies that can befall new package installs.

Perhaps the way forward would be split if you want to & think you can, but preferably not split, but just incase it's swarming or anything weird happens, kill most of the cells, leave more than one though just to be safe.

My personal thoughts, and if it was my own hive so I could watch and manage it, is that newly installed packages sometimes do strange things purely because they have been shaken, uprooted, and thoroughly messed with, and are confused and not always functioning normally at first, till things settle down. This can manifest in odd things such as supersedure, even though there is nothing wrong with the queen. So if it was mine, if I looked and considered the queen normal, I would probably kill all cells plus give them an extra comb of brood to settle them. But I'm not recommending for Hive Tool to kill all cells just incase there is something going on that cannot be diagnosed from the pics.

Be interesting to see how this turns out.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jwcarlson said:


> Just wonder how it doesn't happen nearly ALL the time to people who feed endlessly.


In a normal year nectar would be available sooner and the bees wood stop feeding on the sugar and go to the nectar. That might signal the beekeeper to stop feeding. If you are not watching while you continue to feed the bees will continue to take the feed until they don't because the hive is full. Then you have a problem. In my area the only time you would want the bees storing sugar would be the fall.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> >They are told to feed incessantly


I will vouch for that. I have heard that told to me on my first package, and heard it told to countless others. I did it, and my bees built a lot of comb the first year and didn't swarm, but it makes sense if they were slow to build, it would fill quickly. Around here it goes like this...... "You feed all they will take the first year you hive them, keep sugar water on them until winter."


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Just wonder how it doesn't happen nearly ALL the time to people who feed endlessly.

Who says it doesn't?


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

The bees have not swarmed. I have yet to find the queen in this hive. I am new but I have managed to find the queen in my other hive every time. I have kept 1:1 syrup on the Hive since Day 1. They have taken an estimated 4 quarts of syrup since April 12th. When I put the syrup in the Hive I warm it to Baby bottle warmth but after inserting I never warm it again...If temps drop to High 30's or low 40's over night, as they have been, then that's what the bees get for breakfast the next day. Ive read they wont even take the syrup unless its above 55 or 60 or something like that.

I was going to buy a queen today or tomorrow but now Im not sure what to do.


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

Ill Also add... I took a keeping class in February that was taught by Andy Josephs our State Apiarist. I distinctly remember being told. To feed them all they will take.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Hive Tool said:


> Ill Also add... I took a keeping class in February that was taught by Andy Josephs our State Apiarist. I distinctly remember being told. To feed them all they will take.


That seems to be a common theme. Not sure that is always the right thing to do. There is a place somewhere in the middle that should be the goal. It's tough to get a feel for that as a new beekeeper, though. Just like judging hive strength is difficult, too. Honestly, we had decent enough weather during maple bloom that you probably wouldn't have needed to feed at all if the timing was right. I have more capped honey than I know what to do with in two of my top bar hives, some from left over syrup and quite a bit of fresh nectar from maple/whatever early flow we got. We had enough 60+ degree sunny days that they got plenty of foraging in. Good pollen rolling in too.

Did this hive take more syrup than the other? How much comb do they have built out?


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## VikingJim (Apr 26, 2015)

Hive Tool said:


> I was going to buy a queen today or tomorrow but now Im not sure what to do.


You have 32 queen cells that will be hatching on Tuesday. Why would you buy a queen? I think I would just spend some time cutting out 28 or 29 cells and keep the best 3 or 4. I would think that it can't hurt to wait now. 
BTW My 4# package on new foundation have taken 4 quarts of syrup since Tuesday, 3 gallons since installation on the 19th, which comes to about 1 1/2 quarts a day, and drawn 6 1/2 frames of wax since the 19th with nighttime temps in the 20s and daytime highs in the upper 40s to mid 50s with 1 day that hit 61. It seems they're doing better than I had hoped (I have never purchased a package before and didn't have high hopes).

It also seems to me that one possible explanation for so many queen cells is that a package consists of bees shaken from different hives and the queen wasn't there long enough to completely unite them so each little "gang" is attempting to raise their own with 4 or 5 or more cells each. Just guessing of course.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Timeline:

4-12 package installed on bare foundation
4-19 picture of queen cup
4-27 capped queen cells

My new theory:

My guess is that this is not related to overfeeding, but that they are indeed queenless. It might make sense that the original queen died around April 20. This put the colony into an emergency mode and they built as many cells as they could manage. If I gave a queenless 3 lbs of bees the incentive and resources they could possibly make 30 cells. 

This is not to say that MB reports about overfeeding and swarming are not a big problem that many new beekeepers put themselves into, I just don't think that's the case here. However, I do strongly agree that feeding is a skill that new beekeepers simply haven't mastered yet and will often cause more harm than good. That said, building a package on bare foundation definitely needs supplemental food or a good flow. 

Advice:

Cut out all but 4 of the nicest cells and leave them to sort it out.


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## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

So you installed on 04/12 and queen cups by 04/19. Did you not "introduce" the queen? 
Package queens are usually superceded quickly, but that seems extreme. The queen should have been laying only three-four days, but like Astrobee said, cut out most and let them sort it.


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## cgybees (Apr 20, 2015)

Acebird said:


> In a normal year nectar would be available sooner and the bees wood stop feeding on the sugar and go to the nectar. That might signal the beekeeper to stop feeding. If you are not watching while you continue to feed the bees will continue to take the feed until they don't because the hive is full. Then you have a problem. In my area the only time you would want the bees storing sugar would be the fall.


I am a complete newbie... but I've gotten advice that seems to make sense, here's my thoughts, you guys can correct if I'm off-base..

In cold weather, packages NEED some food to survive overnight when temperatures are in the 30F-45F range (or colder). Some of us in northern climates are faced with this being the only weather available to us... and with a TBH setup in particular, (likemine) nucs aren't a very good option. So I went with a package and the advice I received that seems pertinent was:

Providing drawn comb for new packages in cooler climates especially... seems critical. If you don't provide enough comb, and you feed, they have no place to store yet. If they're out getting pollen, same, etc... 

If you rely on them drawing all their own comb, it's a pretty rough time for a new package, particularly in cold weather - a lot of their energy will be used up keeping the cluster warm, and they'll be clustering early and not active for a great portion of the day. 

Once the queen is out, she may have no place to lay. From your photos it doesn't look like there was any drawn comb - all the photos are new-drawn on foundation. Once all the cells are full of syrup and eggs, might be pretty easy for a package to decide it's time to swarm. Your weather forecast in Des Moines looks like a lot of cloudy / rainy days - they likely aren't foraging heavily.

Maybe providing more comb would have made a difference to how this went? Thoughts from anyone else?


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> We had enough 60+ degree sunny days that they got plenty of foraging in. Good pollen rolling in too.
> 
> Did this hive take more syrup than the other? How much comb do they have built out?


We have had good weather and lots of blooms and flowering for the last several weeks. The weather has not been bad at all not excessive rain, Warm sunny 60-70 during the day and 30-40 over nights. They have been foraging for sure. Im surprised how little comb is drawn out for the conditions but I also feel like 7 days in they lost their queen and may have diverted resources to rearing a new queen.



VikingJim said:


> You have 32 queen cells that will be hatching on Tuesday. Why would you buy a queen? I think I would just spend some time cutting out 28 or 29 cells and keep the best 3 or 4. I would think that it can't hurt to wait now.
> BTW My 4# package on new foundation have taken 4 quarts of syrup since Tuesday, 3 gallons since installation on the 19th, which comes to about 1 1/2 quarts a day, and drawn 6 1/2 frames of wax since the 19th with nighttime temps in the 20s and daytime highs in the upper 40s to mid 50s with 1 day that hit 61. It seems they're doing better than I had hoped (I have never purchased a package before and didn't have high hopes).
> 
> It also seems to me that one possible explanation for so many queen cells is that a package consists of bees shaken from different hives and the queen wasn't there long enough to completely unite them so each little "gang" is attempting to raise their own with 4 or 5 or more cells each. Just guessing of course.


Im assuming Sunday or Monday would have an emerged virgin queen and she will need a little more time involved before she starts laying if mating is successful. Thats why I was contemplating buying a queen. It will give me about 5-7 days of brood in comb before the virgin queen lays one egg.

See you are going through way more syrup than I am. I thought they would take more. 4 quarts since April 12th doesn't seem like much.



gezellig said:


> So you installed on 04/12 and queen cups by 04/19. Did you not "introduce" the queen?
> Package queens are usually superceded quickly, but that seems extreme. The queen should have been laying only three-four days, but like Astrobee said, cut out most and let them sort it.


The bees were delayed 1 day do to weather in California. Im assuming the Bees were with the package and the queen for minimum 3 days likely 4 before I installed the package. The bees were not biting the queen cage when I installed so I stuck a marshmallow and Im assuming she was released a few hours after package installation. 3 days later I found the empty Gallon ziplock bag at the bottom of the hive. That's when I switched to quart mason jars. And we know the queen was laying successfully at least for several days as I have brood on frame and 32 queen cells which would not be there without a fertilized egg being layed.



cgybees said:


> I am a complete newbie... but I've gotten advice that seems to make sense, here's my thoughts, you guys can correct if I'm off-base..
> 
> In cold weather, packages NEED some food to survive overnight when temperatures are in the 30F-45F range (or colder). Some of us in northern climates are faced with this being the only weather available to us... and with a TBH setup in particular, (likemine) nucs aren't a very good option. So I went with a package and the advice I received that seems pertinent was:
> 
> ...


I agree I think things woudl have gone differently for sure with drawn comb.. But that was a commodity I did not have as a new keeper. Today weather is currently 67 and sunny but yes we have some clouds and rain coming our way.


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## VikingJim (Apr 26, 2015)

Hive Tool said:


> Im surprised how little comb is drawn out for the conditions ............................ It will give me about 5-7 days of brood in comb before the virgin queen lays one egg.


What will she lay in for these 5-7 days? Granted the workers will begin to draw comb when she is introduced but......... It won't hurt but I just wouldn't spend the money. It's your call though. Even if you buy a queen, I would be tempted to take a 1/2 cup of bees and a couple of queen cells and make up a mating nuc out of something, just in case of another oops. It'd be fun if nothing else. Good luck.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

Hive Tool said:


> I spoke with a local guy last night who has been keeping since the 50's. He advised me to cut out all but one queen cell.


why would you cut out all but one? What if that cell is a dud. I would leave at the very minimum 2 (actually I would leave 3-5 and try to set up as many queen nucs as I could  ).

You will want to leave those cells alone and not keep going in and moving the frames. It can cause the cells to abort.

I honestly think you should just slow down and be patient. You can't force the bees to do what you want all the time 



Hive Tool said:


> Ill Also add... I took a keeping class in February that was taught by Andy Josephs our State Apiarist. I distinctly remember being told. To feed them all they will take.


There are no absolutes beyond death and taxes.

You need to use feeding as a tool. Especially with smaller hives, nucs, queen rearing boxes. All of these have limited space to store. This naturally leads to back filling with too much of one thing if another isn't present. If you feed (I do for starts), you need to monitor it the space in the brood nest. Once that starts getting back filled you need to stop feeding.


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## rmaxwell (Apr 23, 2014)

32 queen cells is amazing from a package. What I would think most amazing is, the opportunity early on to take what was dropped from the heavens, experiment, and learn. Whether you spend money for a new queen or not, if it were me, I'd start a nuc with a couple cells for learning purposes and as a back up for the future. Send a post out to your beekeeping club. I bet they would disappear in short order. Would save others $25 + each and they might return the favor one day. You might even find a new friend. JMHO.


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

Beelosopher said:


> why would you cut out all but one? What if that cell is a dud. I would leave at the very minimum 2 (actually I would leave 3-5 and try to set up as many queen nucs as I could  ).
> 
> You will want to leave those cells alone and not keep going in and moving the frames. It can cause the cells to abort.
> 
> ...


I don't think cutting out all but one is a good idea either. Not likely what Ill do. Ive pulled frames 2 times on the 19th when I found the queen cells and the other day when I counted them and wanted to see what progress was taking place. Was that too much? 6 or 7 days apart? Especially in a problem hive?



VikingJim said:


> What will she lay in for these 5-7 days? Granted the workers will begin to draw comb when she is introduced but......... It won't hurt but I just wouldn't spend the money. It's your call though. Even if you buy a queen, I would be tempted to take a 1/2 cup of bees and a couple of queen cells and make up a mating nuc out of something, just in case of another oops. It'd be fun if nothing else. Good luck.


LOL I have no idea VikingJim. you think 1/2 a cup of bees in a Nuc is enough to support a frame of brood with queen cells?




rmaxwell said:


> 32 queen cells is amazing from a package. What I would think most amazing is, the opportunity early on to take what was dropped from the heavens, experiment, and learn. Whether you spend money for a new queen or not, if it were me, I'd start a nuc with a couple cells for learning purposes and as a back up for the future. Send a post out to your beekeeping club. I bet they would disappear in short order. Would save others $25 + each and they might return the favor one day. You might even find a new friend. JMHO.


Excellent Idea Sir. I have notified someone to send out word.


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## John Scifres (Mar 25, 2014)

This is very similar to my first package. I bought a new queen. I probably could have gotten away with them doing their own thing but it worked out for me OK. Good luck. 

Knowing what I know now, I'd get at least one nuc going. How many bees are left? You can also take resources from your other booming hive. Take one frame of brood and nurse bees and a frame with some food and leave 3-4 queen cells one the frame and go for it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

AstroBee said:


> My guess is that this is not related to overfeeding, but that they are indeed queenless. It might make sense that the original queen died around April 20. This put the colony into an emergency mode and they built as many cells as they could manage. If I gave a queenless 3 lbs of bees the incentive and resources they could possibly make 30 cells.


I think you have it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

cgybees said:


> In cold weather, packages NEED some food to survive overnight when temperatures are in the 30F-45F range (or colder).


They use almost no carbs in this range. It is the raising of brood that consumes carbs. I moved my first hive the wrong way and half the bees spent the whole night outside the hive in these temperatures. They go into a numb state and when it warms up they are fine. Obviously that can't do it for a long period but low temperatures do not consume honey or nectar until it gets really low. Packages need food because they have to raise a lot of brood.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> In cold weather, packages NEED some food to survive overnight when temperatures are in the 30F-45F range (or colder).



Acebird said:


> They use almost no carbs in this range. It is the raising of brood that consumes carbs.


Say what? :scratch:

Ace you have it completely _backwards_!  

The honey/sugar that bees need throughout the winter/cold weather ARE carbohydrates. Those carbs are how the bees stay warm in the cluster and keep alive. It is the raising of brood in the spring that requires high levels of PROTEIN that is not required in the winter/cold weather.



Here is some basic bee nutrition reading for you: http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/caparticle10.html

(Even if you are _not _Ace, that link offers very good background/info on bee nutrition.) 

.


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

Last Night I pulled a frame with brood and bees and queen cells and stuck it in a NUC box. I figured I have the possibility of getting a split if it takes off with not too much risk to the primary hive losing the bees on the one frame.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Just one frame??


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The bees struggle on one frame. Put another frame each side of it.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I've actually been thinking about this. If you had frames/foundation that could split at the midrib (2 pieces of plastic foundation back to back for example), the single frame could be turned 'inside out', and be one enclosed seam of bees rather than two exposed seams.

I like single frame splits (especially if left at a location with lots of foragers), but it is the only number of frames that offers no 'interior ' to the nest.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Move the parent hive to a different spot in the yard, and put the nuc where the parent hive was.


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## cgybees (Apr 20, 2015)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Here is some basic bee nutrition reading for you: http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/caparticle10.html
> 
> (Even if you are _not _Ace, that link offers very good background/info on bee nutrition.)
> 
> .


Good link, thanks!


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

yes i added 4 frames in the box 

...this past weekend both the primary hive and the nuc had 3 queens emerge. In the primary i was able to locate 2 of the 3 emerged queens and i removed one remaining queen cell and found one destroyed queen cell with its side ripped open. I wasnt sure what to do with the extra queen so I left them alone im assunimg of the 2-3 queens will the hive will collectively choose the better of the 3.

In the smaller NUC I was only able to find 1 queen of the 3 emerged. Where did the other 2 go? No way I missed them. Too small of a hive


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My smallest nucs are one frame of brood, one frame of honey and one shake of bees. And that's pretty small...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Too much poking around if you're finding queens and counting them and such. They don't like to be fooled with when they've got new virgins running about.

Hopefully this weather breaks and they'll be able to get out and mate, my hives all have emerged drones and they've been around long enough they should be flying on nice days. I think your queens will be able to get mated.

The waiting is the hard part, I wish you luck! And when all of the "rules" say she should be laying know that she might be laying something like twelve eggs. We had queens raised in supercedure last year, stayed out of them after finding until calender said eggs should be there. Without checking every dang cell we would have missed eggs in both hives. They'd both laid up a small circle of less than 20 cells.

The following week the whole dang hive though. Be patient, you'll be doing more harm than good if you get into them after the cells emerge.


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> Too much poking around if you're finding queens and counting them and such. They don't like to be fooled with when they've got new virgins running about.
> 
> Hopefully this weather breaks and they'll be able to get out and mate, my hives all have emerged drones and they've been around long enough they should be flying on nice days. I think your queens will be able to get mated.
> 
> ...


I agree I m staying out of them... Im checking syrup levels today to make sure they are full but No frames will be pulled and Im not even gonna smoke them...Just swapping mason jars


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hive Tool said:


> Im not even gonna smoke them...


Hmm, sometimes a wee puff of smoke at the right moment can keep the bees calmer, a stitch in time....


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

How much syrup do they have in comb? You were just in there. Do they need more feed? They probably aren't drawing comb since tey don't have a queen laying and if you pump them with syrup until they do she may be honey bound before she even starts.


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

*Update* 
Queen emerged on May 3rd 

Its been cool and rainy this past week

Checked hives on the 16th of may 

No eggs.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Don't worry that's only 13 days, try later.


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## Hive Tool (Apr 16, 2015)

Checked today..... Eggs and larvae everywhere like some crazy queen let off a brood bomb!!


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