# Reversing in Fall??



## cryptobrian (Jan 22, 2012)

I've done some searching on reversing and it seems to apply to late winter/spring. I don't see any references to fall reversing. However, in one my hives, the lower brood chamber is now empty ... completely. Not an egg, not a drop of honey, no pollen. 100% empty. Does it make sense to go ahead and pull that bottom box and put it on top, giving them some additional space to store honey (I am feeding and they are actively taking it).


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

At this point in the year the bees pretty much have the hive the way they want it so it's best not to change things up at this point.


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

I'd remove it instead of reversing it and put it back on in the spring.
Good Luck, Mike


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

My first hive did that last year--and when I fed they put syrup in the cells but never capped. However, in spring, they moved down overnight and while expanding very rapidly (on 01 Apr according to my notes). This hive is doing the same thing this year (though they are weak and I'm not sure they will survive). My other two hives are not doing this and are much larger. Anyway, I was so surprised by the rapid growth that early next spring I plan to put a box of empty drawn comb under all my hives. 

I would let it be and feed to see if they take--especially now w/ the perfect storm coming and the cool weather to follow.


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

remove it this time of year and replace it above early spring


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

I would not remove it because the dead space below the brood is good for overwintering .Make sure that the mice don't get in.


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## Jaseemtp (Nov 29, 2010)

I am glad to hear this is not only happening to me


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## Bailey11 (Aug 2, 2011)

I too am seeing this in one of my "stronger" hives. Thought the same thing about possibly reversing, but have sided with the post of just leaving it alone. I really couldn't believe how well this hive looked in the upper deep with the brood, honey and pollen and then after taking a peak in the bottom deep I did feel a bit distressed. My second winter is just ahead and am hoping to be able to share positive experiences. Jaseemtp - couldn't have said it better in my opinion.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

do you have screened bottom boards?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

This is not an uncommon condition in the southeast. We have seen two different seasons where nearly half the colonies showed a nearly empty bottom deep in the fall. The fact that it showed up in multiple colonies in the same season makes me think that some variation in that season's forage pattern was the cause.

The time to inspect for, and correct for, the condition is early August. If most of the brood is in the upper deep, reverse at that time. It does no harm in the summer to split the brood nest, and they "want" to store honey immediately above the brood. This reversal gets the colony back to the config. they normally are in with swarm prep backfilling - Honey in the upper deep, accumulated on the fall flow. We would like to encourage one of you 'frequent responders' to open a thread on the subject to alert beeks about the first week of August. It's not in the books.

There is another condition that has the southeastern colony out of configuration going into winter in the double deep. Too much brood at the first killing frost/freeze. If the vegetation sources are terminated, while the colony still has substantial brood, they fail to get the broodnest properly backfilled with nectar for underfoot winter warming fuel. If they have overhead uncapped honey, they can move that down to the broodnest, but they are reluctant to uncap honey for that purpose.

What happens is that, about the first freeze, the colony relocates the cluster up on solid capped honey. (In the mild period between cold fronts) Beekeepers are not normally inspecting brood chambers in that period, and do not see the relocation upstairs. The literature implies that the colony ate their way up into the upper deep, but that's definately not the case in the southeast. Here, the colony can do very well over the winter with a properly backfilled brood deep.

To avoid relocation from the lower deep to the upper in late fall, inspect about first frost. If substantial brood is present, feed syrup generously through the following three weeks, internal to the hive. We use comb feeding to provide more access to the feed during the getting shorter cluster-breaking periods.

When the broodnest is properly prepared for winter, use of the upper deep honey doesn't start until late winter broodnest expansion starts. We can help, if we choose to.
Walt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I think a box of empty combs at the bottom at this time of the year, is entirely normal for my bees. I do winter in two deeps and a medium. I feel that if the bees set up their hive this way, then so be it. That's the way the bees do it. Nothing has to be done, and there's no reason why the empty box has to be removed. In fact, I feel it's a good thing to have those empty combs below the cluster. 

My bees winter with large clusters...some filling the entire hive. When they're getting ready for winter...making their winter cluster..I find plenty of brood at the first frost. Because my hives are so large, there is plenty of room for honey storage and brood production. 

I find winter clusters located in various places in the hives. Some winter below the honey...moving up through the winter. I also find clusters wintering above...on the honey. Once when Larry Connor looked at my bees, he was concerned with those clusters wintering near the top of the hive...in December. I wasn't and those bees wintered fine. I feel that as long as the hive is heavy enough, and the cluster large enough, it doesn't matter where the cluster is located.

Walt and all...think about this. It's said that if you ask two beekeepers a question, you'll get three different answers. One beekeeper says the bees do it one way, and others say no, they do it such and such a way. Well, to me, they do it every way. If you see the bees performing in two different ways, it doesn't mean one is wrong and has to be corrected. I do believe that this is the reason why Walt and I sometimes disagree. 

Bees are better beekeepers than beekeepers are bees. Observe and imitate. You'll see what I mean.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> Walt and all...think about this. It's said that if you ask two beekeepers a question, you'll get three different answers. One beekeeper says the bees do it one way, and others say no, they do it such and such a way. Well, to me, they do it every way. If you see the bees performing in two different ways, it doesn't mean one is wrong and has to be corrected.


Only 3 ways? I would have to disagree with that. But seriously, and I think we may have had this exchange before, if you want to leave an empty box below through the winter then you better have pretty tight equipment and mouse guards. When I used to overwinter up north I remember cleaning out a lot of mouse nests and losing some good comb in the process. To me the question is more about where you can safely store your comb than whether it hurts to have an empty box below your cluster. A large hive will winter just fine with an empty box below, a smaller cluster maybe would be better off in a smaller space possibly oriented to gain some heat from a larger hive.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Can I get a ball park on what is considered a large hive? My strongest hive has a solid box of honey on it (I took one off) and the weight of the boxes decrease as you get to the bottom board. I would say the bottom box is void of honey and there is a total of 5 medium boxes (8 frame) on the hive. On a weaker hive there is four boxes total and the bottom box is empty.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A strong colony of bees would be one w/ a tight cluster of bees in the coldest part of the year showing bees 
visible between 7 or 8 frames when the cover is removed. If in a hive of two deeps this cluster would extend down into the lower box.

at this time of year you might find bees in loose cluster extending from the top oif the hive down almost to the bottom. I have some hives which are two deeps tall w/ bees observable when the cover is removed and then when the two boxes are tilted forward at the same time bees are hanging down below the bottom of the bottom frames.

A large hive would be one which is really tall.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> A large hive would be one which is really tall.


Or in the case of a TBH really long?


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

My bees tend to pack full frames of pollen down in the bottom box, so lifting it you'd think it was just the wood, but it's not.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Yes, I agree. When I removed a bottom box from one hive I checked to see that is was not full of pollen or bee bread.



> really tall - really long


neither of these terms are definitive. An 8 or 9 frame deep cluster is. So with that in mind maybe my weak hives are not all that weak.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

In a tight cluster volleyball sized is fair basketball or more is good.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Yes, I agree. When I removed a bottom box from one hive I checked to see that is was not full of pollen or bee bread.
> 
> 
> neither of these terms are definitive. An 8 or 9 frame deep cluster is. So with that in mind maybe my weak hives are not all that weak.


A big hive is either longer in the case of TBHs or taller in the case of standard Langstroth hives.
A big colony is a colony of bees of a certain number or volume.

We've had this discussion before. A hive is occupied by a colony. You can have a large hive w/ a small colony inside.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

"All", as noted by MP,
We don't have to disagree - we both report what we see. Opinions vary with the observations. As long as others recognize that our opinions are based on different perspectives, that doesn't necessarily constitute disagreement.

This business of the empty bottom box was one of several reasons we moved away from double deeps a long time ago. 
A second was the fact that stopping swarming is difficult with double deeps in the southeast. Degree of difficulty is only exceeded by wintering in a deep and super. To stop swarming in either of those configurations, the beekeeper has to resort to some type of broodnest disturbance which slows the colony down, or weakens them some. Either of those impacts honey production. My goal was maximum honey with the least work. (Retirement supplemental income)

A subjective third was the observation that bees do not "like" the break in functional comb at box joints of the lang hive design. As it applies to this thread, it sometimes causes them to fail to back down to the bottom during main flow broodnest reduction. 
On the continuous comb of the wild nest, they move smoothly either up or down.

Also subjective is their preference for rearing brood in a deep. A medium is not as bad, but they have a distinct preference for rearing brood in deep over a shallow.

So, we moved to a single deep and the rest all shallows - looks bizarre, but is all we hoped it would be. The basic deep broodnest has year round brood. Expansion in the spring grows into 3 or 4 shallows when checkerboarded, and the broodnest recedes back to the deep reliably. More honey; less work. Not a good plan for you folks who like to dink around in the colony for the fun of it.

Walt
As usual, have not convinced anybody who learned what they know more than 20 years ago.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Always like to read your post Walt but it is my belief that bees in the north have developed different habits than bees in warmer zones. I am not sure why your bees are reluctant to cross over from one frame to another for raising brood but my bees could give a rats a-- about that. Maybe because they fill in the gap and it is one big comb to them. It has got me beat.
I like to be definitive but you can only do that for about a 5 mile radius. At least that is what it looks like to me.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Ace,
Get your interbar space right, and you'll get very little comb there.
Walt


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Should vertical spacing then be 3/8 inch? In order to get this precise, the deep supers need to be 9 1/2 inches deep when dry. Think they are cut 9 5/8 and depending how much moisture there is in the wood, they will dry to somewhat less than 9 5/8.

Just measured a purchased deep and fully dry it is 9 5/8. This leaves a problematic 1/2 inch vertical spacing and unwanted comb.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> Ace,
> Get your interbar space right, and you'll get very little comb there.
> Walt


I purchased all my frames from Betterbee and initially the boxes. I have copied the interior dimensions of the boxes and built my own. What more can I do? I am of the impression that nothing is exact when it comes to bee equipment.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I have copied the interior dimensions of the boxes and built my own.


Lets see, you have a little too much space vertically between frames in boxes *you *built, and you want 3/8" (_bee space_) instead.



Acebird said:


> I am a very experienced carpenter / *engineer *so I know structure and I know ....


OK, keeping that in mind ...



Acebird said:


> What more can I do?


How about applying some of that engineering talent and trimming the boxes to the size you want? :scratch: But then I'm not an engineer, so apparently I'm missing some of the subtle nuances of the situation.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> How about applying some of that engineering talent and trimming the boxes to the size you want? :scratch: But then I'm not an engineer, so apparently I'm missing some of the subtle nuances of the situation.


So you want me to shim and trim each and every box to maintain 3/8 inch space between frames to make up any difference between frames? The next season if these frames get mixed up you have to do it all over again? As an engineer I strive for consistency and interchangability so I copied the dimensions of a manufactured box. Now I can uses any box anywhere I want. You can do as you like.
If you are practicing non intervention beekeeping the bees will build burr comb between the upper and lower frames. I am sure of it. I don't care what the spacing is. They will first use the comb as you gave it to them and then when that is full they will do as they please. I don't try to tell them what to do.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> So you want me to shim and trim each and every box to maintain 3/8 inch space between frames to make up any difference between frames?


I don't want you to do anything out of your comfort zone.  

In post #24 you asked "What more could you could do?" Apparently you aren't interested in doing anything except _complaining _about the situation.

As an _engineer_, why didn't you evaluate the situation with the purchased boxes before you used them as a model to build more?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You are assuming I didn't. There is nothing wrong with the boxes, either the ones I bought or the ones I made.


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