# walt wright's checkerboarding



## MelissaWilkie (Nov 15, 2014)

What is chekerboarding?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: TF For 5 Seasons of More - Please Stand Up*

=> A bad idea.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource, Melissa!




MelissaWilkie said:


> What is chekerboarding?


Walt Wright has written multiple documents on checkerboarding that are available in the Beesource _Point of View_ section. Here is a link to one:

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...reliminary-update-on-my-swarm-control-method/
You can find others by perusing the menu on the left side of that page. 

As Bernhard demonstrates, some of the folks that oppose that technique have bad manners. 

.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: TF For 5 Seasons of More - Please Stand Up*



BernhardHeuvel said:


> => A bad idea.


are we talking about checkerboarding as described by walt wright or the myriad of other manipulations that are sometimes described as 'checkerboarding'? what have you found bad about the idea bernhard?

melissa, the term 'checkerboarding' has been used in a number of different ways but is usually used to describe a management technique that has the potential to maximize honey production by reducing swarming developed by a very smart fellow by the name of walt wright.

here is a link to some of his writings on the subject, and there are more in the 'point of view' section on this forum:

http://www.k4vb.com/all walt articles.htm

if i am not mistaken bernhard objects to breaking up the broodnest which is sometimes called checkerboarding, but it turns out that walt also is very much against disturbing the broodnest and it is not part of his technique.

i saw a fatbeeman video recently in which he does a split and introduces foundation frames alternated with all of the other frames and calls it 'checkerboarding'. this is very different that what walt is describing.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

with fall winding down and winter around the corner the work in the bee yard is pretty much over for the season. hopefully our bees are going into winter healthy and with adequate stores as we look forward with anticipation to the next season and the potential it brings.

there was a question put forth in another thread (welcome to beesource melissa!): 'what is checkerboarding?'

in an effort to not derail that thread, (perhaps the moderator could move those posts here), and because i feel this subject deserves a discussion of its own, i thought i would start a new thread and solicit input from those of you that have had experience with the method and others that may have questions about it.

for the sake of this discussion, 'checkerboarding' will be defined as the method described by walt wright whereby frames of honey and empty comb are alternated in the supers above the brood nest in late winter in an effort to promote brood nest expansion up into the supers, suppress the swarm impulse, and increase honey production. it does not involve any brood nest manipulation, and may include the use of a super at the bottom of the stack for pollen storage.

my own results with the method have been mixed in terms of preventing swarming. walt and i have mulled over the possible reasons for that and i will have more details to follow. it is obvious to me however that the spring brood up is facilitated by having the combs arranged in this way coming out of winter.

for those of you who have tried the method as described what has been your experience with regard to swarm prevention and honey production?


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Peg, 
Could it be that your mixed results are from not enough room in the brood nest for the early brood expansion? 

Next year I will be doing a trial with my 10 hives having third deep brood nests, they have gone into this winter healthy and with the third deeps full of capped stores. in March I will place the brood in the bottom box and checkerboard the stores in the second and third boxs. This should allow more room for the brood nest to expand thus limiting swarming. I did a test run on one hive this year with successful results, it did not swarm. In previous years of running two deep brood nests swarming was always a huge problem during white wax in May which was preventing any type of decent honey crop.

I am curious as to what you think of this concept and Walt's input would be highly valued as well.

I am looking forward to next year and the full trial run that is to come .


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> for the sake of this discussion, 'checkerboarding' will be defined as the method described by walt wright whereby frames of honey and empty comb are alternated in the supers above the brood nest in late winter in an effort to promote brood nest expansion up into the supers, suppress the swarm impulse, and increase honey production.


wait a minute,
sguarepeg, if you dont mind, can you elaborate on that thought? I have not paid much attention to checkerboarding because I thought it was somekind of an intensive brood comb manipulation kind a deal. Maybe it is, or maybe I have just misunderstood the process. 

from the statement you made above sounds exactly what I do in spring, which evolves no manipulation.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here you go Ian, from a post by Walt ...



wcubed said:


> For the record, checkerboarding DOES NOT DISTURB the broodnest. Alternating honey and empty comb is done above the broodnest very early in the season - normally before the cluster has expanded to fill the starting brood chamber.



(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

bill, this was my first year with enough drawn comb and honey frames in late february to properly checkerboard as per walt's recommendations. (walt even made a few trips down here to make sure i did it right.  ) all of my colonies came out of winter with the brood nest in the single deep at the bottom of the stack, and all were given 2 or 3 checkerboarded mediums above the deep. about half of the colonies brooded all the way to the top, while others only moved the nest up into 1 or two supers and then re-established a solid honey dome overhead.

ian, walt is a firm believer in not disturbing the brood nest. his manipulations involve only the honey supers above a single deep brood box. take a peek at his writings when you get a chance. no excluder is used and the idea is to get the bees to keep brooding up to the top of the stack and not start backfilling until it gets past prime swarm season.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> ian, walt is a firm believer in not disturbing the brood nest. his manipulations involve only the honey supers above a single deep brood box. take a peek at his writings when you get a chance. no excluder is used and the idea is to get the bees to keep brooding up to the top of the stack and not start backfilling until it gets past prime swarm season.


Well then, I think I do a variation of the same thing. You tell me right or wrong. 
I will manage myhive strength in the spring to a prefered size. After I will add a second (super ) to my hives to allow spring time hive growth. But then I shake them back down into the single, add queen excluder so that the hives will back fill the brood nest in the second which will allow for timely harvesting. 
I would assume Walt deals with doubles and naturally allows the cluster to move up and then back down?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

bill, i ended up with some double deep colonies by the end of last winter. this was because i was able to repurpose deep frames of empty comb and honey from dead outs by donating them to some five frame nucs that i was overwintering. i checkerboarded the upper deep and the results were amazing. all of those five frame nucs became double deeps overflowing with bees by april with brood all the way to the top and no honey dome! i also did not find any sign of swarm intent in these even though swarming had started in my area by then. those colonies were slated for splits and nucs so they got busted up, but i have wondered since how they would have done had they been given supers.

based on this observation, i plan to modify my checkerboarding manipulation for the upcoming year. instead of staggering the empty comb and honey frames from one super to the next, i am going to try putting empty frames above empty frames and honey frames above honey frames in the supers. i.e. there will be a straight ladder of empty comb alternated with a straight ladder of honey across the top boxes, similar to the way the upper deeps were in the doubles i described above.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ian, walt specifically ran single deeps, shallow supers, and no excluder. if i were running all deeps i would consider giving roland's method a try, whereby he moves capped brood above an excluder similar to what you are describing.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> the idea is to get the bees to keep brooding up to the top of the stack and not start backfilling until it gets past prime swarm season.


This is different than what I am working towards, I don't necessarily want the brood to reach the top of the third brood box which would indicate to them that they are out of room which would likely trigger swarming, I want them to feel that they have all the room needed for brooding and storage of honey. When April arrives and the early woodland nectar and pollen start rolling in the bees place a honey dome in the third deep, then in a week or two when the May white wax flow arrives the supers go on and the honey dome acts as a natural barrier to the queen. I want the honey dome in place "before" the prime swarm season in May but with sufficient room in the brood nest to avert swarming. This is my goal and it is how things played out this year with the one test hive. I need the honey dome in place before the main flow in May because with this large of a brood chamber the bees will not cross a queen excluder, they see it as the top of the hive, this is why the honey dome must be in place before the main flow .


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

Ian, Not trying to be rude. What you are doing is similar but NOT checkerboarding. As squarpeg said Walt defined checkerboarding as manipulating the honey super above the brood chamber to fool the bees into believing they didn't have enough stores to swarm. One of the things Walt said was that variations on his methods would fail. You could try to dispute that by doing your variation but again that would not be called checkerboarding.

No personal experience yet, only theory from other threads and the desire to try this next year for myself. This is only my 3rd year keeping bees and I've made lots of mistakes. I believe that Walt's method of checkerboarding will keep my hives from swarming again next year.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood bill, sounds like what tim ives has found works really good for your area, perhaps you should be getting your ladder ready.  

i think we get more of a bimodal flow here with a main flow in the spring, followed by an extended summer dearth, followed by a shorter fall flow. what walt has found is that swarm ambition can be turned off if you can keep them from doing it far enough into the spring flow. the idea is that a swarm needs enough time to get established before the dearth sets in and perhaps the colonies have some sense of this. this effect may be less obvious in areas where a summer dearth is absent or less pronounced.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> bill, i ended up with some double deep colonies by the end of last winter. this was because i was able to repurpose deep frames of empty comb and honey from dead outs by donating them to some five frame nucs that i was overwintering. i checkerboarded the upper deep and the results were amazing. all of those five frame nucs became double deeps overflowing with bees by april with brood all the way to the top and no honey dome! i also did not find any sign of swarm intent in these even though swarming had started in my area by then. those colonies were slated for splits and nucs so they got busted up, but i have wondered since how they would have done had they been given supers.


Those are amazing results, it would have been nice to have seen what these hives could do, I think that how we tailor our management systems is according to our desired outcome and of course most of all our climate. The way that I propose management may not work well in your area and visa versa. 

Ian's system seams tailored to a season that is shorter than ours .


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

exactly.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

my favorite work by walt is his manuscript 'nectar management, principles and methods'. it's about 60 pages and does a great job in describing the changes in colony operations over the seasons. the timelines in it are somewhat specific to our area but i feel the general principles are applicable to most. it's the best $10 i have spent on beekeeping, you have order it directly by sending walt a pm.

walt's take on why the bees reveal this tendency to have a narrow window for reproductive swarming is that they were once primarily dependent on trees for their source of pollen and nectar, and since most trees are only productive in the early part of the season it was important for the bees get the timing right for the sake of the parent colony as well as the swarm.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

If you want to increase brood, bees and honey crop, learn to use a deep single brood box and a queen excluder. Get a good breed of bees.

This fiddling with checkerboarding honey combs (not brood combs) I tried it one, two three times. What I found is, that it is a waste of resources (too much combs and boxes for an insignificant effect), takes too much time, is incompatible with migratory beekeeping and I don't understand why to throw resources at something that I can reach with less effort and boxes. Also I find that honey gets too moist and I can't harvest pure honey variations, just a wild mixture of all sorts of blooms. I get a better price for special honeys, so it matters to me. Don't think it does any good to the honey quality, when I mix up overwintered honey with fresh honey. Even the bees prefer fresh honey over old honey.

Sorry for being rude or at least: looking rude. I am a kind person in reality. (As are my bees.) But some stuff has cost me a lot of time and money in the past and I became a bit allergic to stuff like this. It may work for someone else somewhere, though, I don't know. I am out of this, won't try it again, won't recommend it either. Just saying.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> understood bill, sounds like what tim ives has found works really good for your area, perhaps you should be getting your ladder ready.


I have never completely understood Tim Ives method of managing the brood nests but perhaps it is something that I should look into for insight. In his youtube videos he shows how high his hives are but when he is removing the supers I don't see any capped honey in these high up boxes only a few bees. Perhaps as the season progresses they do eventually get filled. My hives are limited to 1 medium and 2 shallows each, I know that this will mean more extractions but I don't really want to be climbing 8 foot step ladders carrying fully capped supers at my age lol .


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I understand your reasoning Bernhard, your system is similar to commercial management here in the USA and your way of beekeeping fits your needs. I work 10 hours a day as a Maintenance Machinist and when I get home I am too tired to even look at the bees which leaves me a limited amount of time on the weekends to work with them. The system that I am working on is tailored to my needs as well and that is a management system that allows the bees to take care of their own brood nest without me and I will still end up with honey at years end .

By the way I know that you are a nice guy, you never seemed otherwise to me .


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

bernhard, do you practice any form of swarm prevention?


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I was going to try checkerboarding last year, but my bees ate all the stores and I had to feed early in the spring, hence no honey to checkerboard with. I did pile on the supers early as I've learned that the flow here is fairly strong but tends to be somewhat short -- by the time the blooms drop on the catalpas, it's just about over as far as large surplus.

The result I got was an enormous hive of bees, they had brood in a deep, two mediums, and a couple shallows but in a "chimney" up the eastern side of the hive. By the time they got a large amount of honey stored in late May, there were full frames of brood in a deep, two mediums, and a few drones in some shallows that were otherwise nearly full. I had eight boxes on the hive.

And they swarmed. A couple days before I was going to do a split, as I was waiting for the blackberries to bloom. I got 80 lbs of honey off the hive in June, leaving two full mediums of honey for winter stores. Lost the hive because they failed to re-queen (or the queen was a dud) and I didn't catch it soon enough for a variety of reasons including lack of time.

I have no doubt the unlimited brood nest theory is correct, and very large crops of honey are possible in most years if you allow plenty of room for the bees to raise brood, but it is also necessary to keep them from running out of brood space. I should have pulled a split when I inspected with hive the week before they swarmed, but I was concerned that there were very few drones flying and the weather was supposed to be bad for the next few weeks.

I do have the empty comb now to checkerboard in late Feb, so we shall see how things go. I will also pull a cut-down split (or at least a walk-away replacing the box with empty comb) so I don't have swarms this year, I'm sure I'm losing even more honey!

And don't forget that what works very will in norther Alabama may not be ideal somewhere else!

Peter


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

peter, the cut down split makes a lot of sense to me. we're not sure why my success rate is less than walt's. one difference is i'm using medium supers instead of shallows. another difference is that i am using stock derived from feral survivors that tend to be on the swarmy side.

i hope to replicate the brooding up to the top with no honey reserve and no swarm preps like the double deeps did last year but with two mediums above a single deep instead. i'll wait about adding more supers until they get to the top and then look to see if they store nectar in the added supers vs. backfilling the lower ones. i'll do cut down splits on the strongest ones and any that are indicating swarm preps.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jbraun said:


> Ian, Not trying to be rude. What you are doing is similar but NOT checkerboarding.


I did not say I was checker boarding. I was asking squarepeg if what I was doing would be considered a variation on the idea. 

Checkerboard away fellas, if its working run with it!
My spring time focus in on manipulation of the queens laying pattern throughout the hive through the spring
I have her work out, then up, then force her back down.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Ian said:


> I was asking squarepeg if what I was doing would be considered a variation on the idea.


i think the term 'checkerboarding' comes from the pattern of alternated frames of honey and empty comb that are put in place in the supers by late winter. it is found that the bees go nuts expanding the brood nest up into those empty combs when they are flanked with honey on either side. the thinking is that this is easier for them than eating their way through a solid dome of honey and tricks them into not starting to backfill and swarm. walt and others have ended up with towering hives and big harvests doing this. i have had partial success with it.

when you add your second box ian, is it all empty comb or do you mix in some honey frames too?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

In times of varroa and hive beetles (they are on their way up North here in Europe), you better don't stretch the broodnest throughout multiple boxes. Better keep it as compact as possible.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I believe the theory is that since there are "holes" in the dome of capped honey over the brood nest, the bees will "think" there are not enough stores present to safely swarm and will instead switch to buildup mode rather than swarm mode. Walt reports that they supercede their queen as a rule, but although I only had six or so queen cells in my hive, they swarmed anyway.

I needed more drawn comb last year -- with a fairly short season, the time it takes to drawn comb reduces the amount of honey they can put in it.

Neither hive beetles nor wax moths have any impact on the spring buildup and honey storage -- the hive is FULL of bees, packed from top to bottom (the objective of an unlimited brood nest) and neither pest is in full career at that point anyway. If the ground freezes, there are very few hive beetles around as non of the overwintering pupae survive, and if the bees are doing a good job of keeping the eggs and small larvae removed, there are only a few beetles in the hive. Wax moths are also low in numbers, and again a huge hive full of bees will easily keep them down.

After the honey is removed both pests can be a problem, especially if bee number drop of drastically for some reason, as in the case of my hive last spring that swarmed and then failed to re-queen.

I personally think that limiting your hive to a single deep for brood limits the number of bees, and around here that will limit your honey crop quite a bit, the flow is fairly short but quite heavy. More bees equals more honey, and the expectation from checkerboarding (or nectar management as Walt has been calling it) is that the queen will greatly reduce laying as the hive is filled with nectar and then honey, reducing the area available for brood. The only difficulty is if that reduction in brood area triggers late swarming. It does not for Walt. I didn't have enough space available last year, should have put a couple supers of foundation on earlier so the bees could get it drawn sooner. Won't make that mistake this year.

Peter


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

I have been using Walt Wright's nectar manage system {checker boarding] on twenty to twenty five hives for three years with good success after attending a talk by Mr. Wright. The subject was of course nectar management. I live in Tn. so I do not have rethink the time line for the system. I have had one swarm in each season which I cannot explain but could make several excuses. Most of the checker boarded hives make a little better then our area average with a few doing much better then average. Some of my hives are 60 miles from home and do not get the attention the ones close by get is the reason I started this method of management. For it to work you have to follow Walt's system to the letter and it has to be done early which is late Feb. in Tn.
I use single deeps with mediums on some hives and all mediums on others, Both eight frame and ten frame hives.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Actually you get less brood space in multiple brood boxes as you get in one brood box. 

How is that?! The queen follows a laying path, one egg by the next egg, one after the other all lined up. She swaps combs and the laying path is circular on one comb, but like a spiral if seen as a whole. The queen spirals to the outer sides and goes back to the inside. Hope you visualize the queen spiralling her way through the hive.

In a perfect setup, the length of the laying path is as long as the queen needs to lay in 21 days. After 21 days she then returns back to the very first cells she layed eggs into, which in 21 days developed into young bees, emerging at day 21. Bees clean that cell, queen replaces eggs. All is right.

Now, what do get if you use too many combs and too large combs, multiple brood boxes and so, the queen extends her laying path, spiralling too far to the outer sides and or up into the other boxes? What happens?! 

What happens is, that the queen doesn't return to the first cells because she is busy elsewhere. Cells stay empty. Bees hate empty cells and - with nectar or pollen available -, they fill up the cells with pollen. Queen comes back, and doesn't find empty cells. She looks elsewhere for available cells. This way you stretch the broodnest along multiple boxes, brood all over the hive, scattered. 

You need lots of combs to lessen the effects of too much brood combs. All the honey goes into the broodnest.

The problem with a scattered broodnest is, that nurse bees are scattered as well. The brood receive much less care and less warmth compared to a compact broodnest. 

Also you end up with less honey, because a compact broodnest is a honey pump. A compact broodnest produces a massive heat, and honey gets dried very quicker.

I can produce more bees and more honey with a compact broodnest. Because the queen returns to the cells as they emerge. 

It may seem, that a five or eight boxes hive is "full of bees". I did the test and shook down the whole hives at different times in the season, weighed the bees and compared. It turned out, that the big hives may seem to have more bees, but I found that number of bees is the same, no matter what the size of the hive. The bees are just spread throughout the hive. So it is an illusion. As is with brood. If you really would compare number of broodcells, you will find the same number of broodcells in either type of hives, with the slight tendency of backflooding nectar/pollen in big hives.

The queen has a certain ability to lay eggs and there is a natural limit. She can't lay more eggs in 21 days as she does. No matter how many empty combs you provide. How many eggs per minute do you expect a queen to lay eggs? She already lays about ten times of her body weight in eggs every day. There is a physical limit.

I find less swarming in compact broodnests of optimal size. There are so many reasons to use only one box as a broodnest. Checking the broodnest is so much easier and faster. Especially when you do not have much time, you better use a method that is fast and produces reliable results. 

There are reliable ways to control swarming. The first and best is, to use a good breed. You have half the work with a good breed. Have young queens in your hives. Requeen swarmy hives. Check for cells, break one time, two time. If they don't stop making cells, requeen and don't use this hive for breeding anymore. Buckfast bees respond to breaking cells by giving up swarming, while Carnica bees tend to make even more cells. Do not add more combs in the broodnest, add combs in the honey super. Do not take capped brood, because you break the spiral laying pattern of the queen by doing so. Do not muddle up the broodnest. The spiral is key to best results, both in producing brood and honey. It seems the bees are more satisfied with a compact broodnest. Must be because of the compact smell of her queen and of fresh young brood, not in patches here and there, but as a solid brood comb.

Everybody is free to do side by side comparisons, but do compare it right. Shake down to weigh the bees, take pictures of the comb, calculate the number of brood cells. Weigh the honey harvested from those gives. Count swarm cells. Make notes about time and work involved. 

There certainly is no definite answer of what's the best way to keep bees.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> when you add your second box ian, is it all empty comb or do you mix in some honey frames too?


I see, thanks for that input squarepeg. And no I don't manipulate my honey frames so what I am doing is a far way from checkerboarding. 

To get towering hives full of honey, all you got to do is place your hives in the middle of a yellow prairie 

And to Bernhard's point, I happen to agree completely with his latest comment. Single brood hive management, when managed properly is one of the highest performing most efficient means of keeping a hive.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

This is what happens in case you keep bees on multiple brood boxes. This is a picture of combs from a three story hive, three brood boxes, those combs where from each box, one over the other.









As you see, the broodnest is completely clogged with pollen. Because in early spring at first there is no nectar, bees stuff all the empty cells with pollen. Number of available brood cells is very limited!


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

In a single brood box every cell of the brood comb is a brood cell:





















































































































And honey combs are honey combs. Nothing else.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Good looking brood Bernhard! The disadvantage of singles of course is the limited space for surplus resources. Feeding is necessary. Very little room for error during some periods of the season.

oh and good looking field of canola as well


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I had no problems with the brood box being full of honey -- in early May, at the peak hive population, I had a deep, two mediums, and one and half shallows full of brood except the outside frames. Initially they had a medium on the bottom, a deep above that, two mediums, and a shallow with brood in three or four frames on the East side (where the sun hits in the morning, shaded on the West). This was in late March, they expanded out and I put two more shallows on, then another of foundation, had 7 boxes on that hive FULL of bees. It was quite an experience to pull frame after frame of eggs, larvae, and capped brood.

But that is here, weather and seasons are different, and so are the bees!

I would be concerned about the lack of pollen in the hive with only one box of brood. That brood did indeed look lovely, but what are they going to feed the next round? Here, pollen disappears along with the nectar flow in June, so if they don't have quite a bit stored, they will not have enough protein to feed brood later in the summer.

Peter


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Ian said:


> oh and good looking field of canola as well


Right, that's because it is neonic free.


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

It looks like you hive and frame dimensions are a little different -- What is your brood area (or just the dimensions of frames, etc)?
It looks like maybe the equivalent of a US 10 frame deep (9 1/8 frames).


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Right, that's because it is neonic free.


LOL , no, that was not my point. Canola pollen is some of the best pollen bees can feed on, hence the reason your hives are brooding like a bastard!  and the reason why I am usually smiling as I assess my hives in the fall. 

boy oh boy, beesource has become a nice little community has it not? Speaking with some of you guys is becoming more than just talking to a name tag! :lookout:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very interesting bernhard, thanks for your point of view and the photos. i have bees that are surviving mites off treatments and i think that swarminess is something that may go hand in hand with that. i am selecting from the colonies that don't swarm (and usually make the most honey) to graft from.

ian, after you move the queen down into the bottom deep do you move frames of capped brood up above the excluder and replace them with empty comb from time to time?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> ian, after you move the queen down into the bottom deep do you move frames of capped brood up above the excluder and replace them with empty comb from time to time?


No, once she is placed down, we start stacking boxes!

This is how I figure things, she lays the single, I add a super, she lays the super, I push her back down into the brood box which will be now empty, she lays the brood box and by that time the hives are well into the honey flow to think about swarming.

our time is tight, and getting her down before the nectar starts flooding in is key to making the work go fast and easy. Things slow down as we get to the last yards


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood ian, many thanks. i may give that a try on a hive or two next spring. what is your cue to add the third box?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> what is your cue to add the third box?


when the nectar flow starts, and, when the projected honey pull is to start.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood, thanks again.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

This is interesting reading.
From it, I have learned that the "checkerboarding" that we often do in almonds is not "Walt Wright's Checkerboarding" but rather, "Harry Vanderpool's Checkerboarding"
We run double deeps. Every year in almonds, we find a number of hives with the top box wall to wall honey. We also find hives BOILING with bees, down to their last drop of honey.
As we work through the hives we "pull ahead". We pull honey from the honey bound hives "checkerboarding" empty comb, every other frame above the brood nest.
We move brood down.
The light hives and the heavy hives end up the same with alternating frames of comb and feed up top.
I have often wondered how this is supposed to control swarming, because the hives EXPLODE LIKE A BOMB!!!
Works for me!! Works for me!!


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## JasonA (Aug 29, 2014)

Ian said:


> .... I push her back down into the brood box which will be now empty,.......


I am a new to bee keeping and will be getting my first hives in 2015. Can you explain the "I push her back down....". Are you forcing her back down due to that's the only place there are open cells for her to lay or are you physically moving the frame with the queen on it or something else?

Thanks for explaining.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

pretty cool harry, they just can't seem to resist brooding up through those checkerboarded frames. maybe they are taking advantage of the heat rising from the cluster. do you split yours after almonds?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JasonA said:


> I am a new to bee keeping and will be getting my first hives in 2015. Can you explain the "I push her back down....". Are you forcing her back down due to that's the only place there are open cells for her to lay or are you physically moving the frame with the queen on it or something else?
> 
> Thanks for explaining.


We shake her down into the single and insert excluders. It is how we manage two boxes for brooding in the spring and end up with one box of brood to winter

Note; all brood work to manage swarming is done before hand


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I can understand Ian's approach, which is similar to ours. We keep the queen in the bottom box, and move frames of brood up, and place empty frames down to keep empty cells in front of the queen. Ian is doing it on a box level, and not a frame level. I can see advantages to both methods. Ours is more labor intensive.

I have difficulty with Walt's methods, which seem to work, but appear to function under the assumption that bees can do as inventory of their supply levels(checkerboarded frames). I content that they can not, until their stores are gone. They do have the ability to monitor change in stores, that is nectar inflow. I believe a nectar flow would have a greater effect than adding capped food,

What would happen in Walt's setup if you added empty comb above, like Ian, but fed what would have been in the checkerboarded comb as feed. The bees would be stimulated, unlike when checkerboarded comb is added. 

It appears that many of you have been helped by Walt's methods, of which I am greatfull. I guess i may be just too German to change.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Roland said:


> I guess i may be just too German to change.


LOL
I'm changing strategies all the time, I'm half German so that must be the non German side in me,


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Bernard, do your bees not leave a half moon empty space in centre of the super directly above the QE? I had always interpreted this as the bees wanting to extendntye nest up a little further. Brother Adam talks about this being why he switched to single dadant hives. I wondered if you achieve the same with a deep and a medium. You could even do something similar to Ian and move the excluder and queen below the medium at the start of the main flow.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

zhiv9 said:


> ...leave a half moon empty space in centre of the super directly above the QE?


They do and it is my primary goal to get to there! If you see this, the bees will not swarm but forage for honey like crazy. It is the winner, if you see this. Never move that super or combs up or anywhere. It is roughly what Walt is describing but technically better solved, by keeping the bees tight and by the use of a queen excluder. You get this dome of empty cells above the excluder, by that time the bees are in the state of wanting to expand and in this stage the bees are excited and booming.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

psfred said:


> But that is here, weather and seasons are different, and so are the bees!
> 
> I would be concerned about the lack of pollen in the hive with only one box of brood. That brood did indeed look lovely, but what are they going to feed the next round? Here, pollen disappears along with the nectar flow in June, so if they don't have quite a bit stored, they will not have enough protein to feed brood later in the summer.
> 
> Peter


This is what I see here in my area as well. As Ian has already indicated, if you want to go to a single deep brood nest then feeding needs to be done at the correct time intervals. Where I am located I am not sitting in the middle of a yellow prairie, just woods and open fields, my hives are totally dependent on woodland and wildflower nectar which is limited. 

The larger unlimited broodnest serves my purpose by allowing the bees to store what they will need throughout the year without me intervening to feed. I am not looking for many barrels of honey but just enough to sell to those who ask and enough for me to sweeten my tea and make a gallon of Mead now and then.

For those of you who are making a living from beekeeping I understand better why and how you operate and I thank you for sharing this knowledge, I find it interesting and insightful to see the other side of the coin ......Bill


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## JasonA (Aug 29, 2014)

Ian said:


> We shake her down into the single and insert excluders. It is how we manage two boxes for brooding in the spring and end up with one box of brood to winter
> 
> Note; all brood work to manage swarming is done before hand


Thanks for the explanation Ian


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## JasonA (Aug 29, 2014)

Ian said:


> We shake her down into the single and insert excluders. It is how we manage two boxes for brooding in the spring and end up with one box of brood to winter
> 
> Note; all brood work to manage swarming is done before hand


Thank you for explaining Ian.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> They do and it is my primary goal to get to there! If you see this, the bees will not swarm but forage for honey like crazy. It is the winner, if you see this. Never move that super or combs up or anywhere. It is roughly what Walt is describing but technically better solved, by keeping the bees tight and by the use of a queen excluder. You get this dome of empty cells above the excluder, by that time the bees are in the state of wanting to expand and in this stage the bees are excited and booming.


Interesting. I had always interpreted it as the bees feeling there was not enough brood area and making space for the queen to lay in an area that she couldn't reach.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JasonA said:


> Thank you for explaining Ian.




I group my large "split hives" into yards. They all get second brood chambers put on in April. Later in May we cut the hives in half (this is what we are doing in this pic) to make our split and come around in three days to queen anything with emergency cells. At this time we super up the entire operation with seconds to allow further expansion of the colony. Then on the onset of the flow, we shake er down into the bottom brood, insert our excluders and super for the flow.
The boom loader works great for this job. One guy setting the yard, one guy splitting the boxes, one guy loading the truck and taking the pictures...


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

zhiv9 said:


> interpreted it as the bees feeling there was not enough brood area and making space for the queen to lay in an area that she couldn't reach.


That is what it is. They want to expand and this is a strong urge. Because the excluder prevents the queen laying eggs to those cells, which do not get filled for a long long time, the urge to grow is not stopped but prolonged. Give lots of empty honey combs and foundation in the honey supers and the bees really boost. 

The cells you provide by checkerboarding (without queen excluder) get filled in a flow quickly, back-filled as Walt says. Bees jam and cram up honey supers in a couple of days. The compact broodnest has it's _nest smell_ and workforce concentrated, which makes a powerful honey pump. I found that honey pump disturbed if the brood is stretched all over the hive. As scientific studies about swarming found out: a) the smell of fresh wax, b) the smell of young brood and c) a young queen reduces swarming significantly. So I want my brood smell & the queen's smell concentrated at the bottom entrance. Foragers go crazy if their loads are quickly unloaded by hive bees and the honey flows through the broodnest right up into the supers.

Really, that dome of empty cells above the excluder is the golden secret recipe. It is the same what Walter describes in his manuscript, just without all the boxes and shuffling of combs. You get this dome of empty cells, prepared for the queen to lay eggs into, by adjusting the broodnest size to the queen's ability to lay eggs. Not pressing, but adjusting. Do not let the bees build much combs in the brood area. Instead, use foundation in the honey supers. The young bees will start to draw comb there and once the young bees are directed upwards, the honey will follow. This is a nice upward motion, never stop or disturb this.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ian, if you are still following this thread, do you see the dome of empty cells above the excluder that adam and bernhard are describing?

bernhard, can you estimate what percentage of your colonies swarm?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

My experience with checker boarding began with my first 5 frame nuc. It also would not qualify as checkerboarding according to some. It has since become known as side expansion.

I brought that nuc home and placed it as a group of frames in teh center of a ten frame box. this was according to the information I had foudn on tis group and other sources. A week later I inspected the hive and found that the bees had only started drawing very shallow small patches of comb on any additional frames. and those where only the frames right next to the original 5 fraems of the nuc. To me it seemed that the bees only recognized those original frames as there space. I left them for another week. Again I found very little comb drawing progress. still not even 7 fraems total in the hive. Again it seemed to me that in some way those original 5 fraems where telling the bees where the limits of their hive where.

At that time I moved one frame of undrawn foundation in one space. this made the brood nest untouched but left one undrawn frame between that nest and the frame of honey that had been at the edge of the nuc frames. In two days the bees fully drew this frame and filled it with brood.

At this point I began to suspect the bees do not readily accept introduced space. they have there own language about what is theirs and what is not. I again moved in empty frames to the edge of the nest. This time one at each end. again they draw that foundation in a matter of days. Again filling it with brood and began to bring in pollen and nectar. 

At this point I needed to add the next box to the top of the body. I again noticed the bees would not take to this new space. But I was not clear on just how to manipulate the frames. I was not aware of the rules to not disturbed the brood nest. At that time I was simply under the impression that any frames the bees had full of nectar, honey brood or anything else they considered theirs. and in short they woudl go where their frames went. So I moved a couple up. and the bees followed. IN three weeks from the start of these manipulations I had 20 frames drawn and filled with nectar pollen or brood.

The hive in that first year, having been started from a nuc in early May. built up to three boxes full of bees. produced around 100 lbs of honey and never made any attempt to swarm.

It was during this time of trying to figure out the best way to manipulate frames to get the bees to move up that I was introduced to Walts book.

I am not so much interested in checker boarding as I am interested in observing how bees react to added space in general.

I have finally been able to manage one hive according to Walts methods. following the details that he stresses. The hive built up form a nuc to 4 full boxes of bees and it also made no attempt to swarm. every other attempt I have made with even slight variations has resulted in huge colonies that cast massive swarms.

To me it is an impression that the bees have a subtle but exacting language. and manipulation of the messages being sent is exact. Almost as if it requires the exact type of space. in the exact place it is needed when it is needed. That space is a message to the colony. They are working toward a message that say. let's swarm. while checker boarding is intended to effectively send the message, let's not. In the process the bees appear to be highly motivated to win the argument. We are talking about the compulsion to reproduce here.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> bernhard, can you estimate what percentage of your colonies swarm?


I mark queens and do find them at the end of the season, so roughly 5 % do swarm. 



Daniel Y said:


> ...


I want to point you to this: one frame of capped brood makes three frames of bees. So don't expect the bees to take new space if there are not enough bees. If you have two frames of capped brood, why do expect the bees to take on new combs? If you want the bees to build a new box of foundations (8 frames) - care for five combs full of capped brood. (8 combs in the original box, 8 frames in the new box = 16 frames to populate, 16/3 = about five combs of capped brood needed.)

If there is anything to learn from Walt's manuscript, it is timing manipulations and phases in bee colony growth. 

If you don't have the capped brood (= future young bees) in your hive, don't expect them to draw or populate anything. No matter how you shuffle combs. Expand by dividing the number of capped brood by three. Add this number of new combs. That way you get best results.

One frame of capped brood makes three frames of bees.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I mark queens and do find them at the end of the season, so roughly 5 % do swarm.


that's pretty good bernhard. can you describe your overwintering configuration and what if any manipulations you perform leading up to the placement of the excluder?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> ian, do you see the dome of empty cells above the excluder that adam and bernhard are describing?


As the brood hatches the bees backfill the space with honey. As I strip the honey off during the first round and return empty boxes, they bees fill the boxes right down to the excluder.

After spring time growth is out of the way, the queen does not need anymore than one box of space. When I use to run doubles, the hive would finish off with about 8 frames of brood between both boxes, and honey capping overhead. Managing singles, all that honey is taken for harvest. This dome your speaking of might be more prevalent during times of hive expansion. When my excluder goes in, spring time hive growth has generally ended


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood ian, thanks.

another question bernhard, you mentioned requeening hives that swarm and over time you have ended up with less swarmy bees, what percentage of your colonies swarmed in the beginning and how many years did it take to achieve the 5%?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I have small sized frame hives (a) and normal sized frame hives (b). 

a) I winter the small frame hives (8 combs per box) on two brood boxes. The bees populate the complete two boxes during the winter, because this hive is very small. So basicly I put on the excluder just before the first strong flow (only days), add a super or two of empty honey combs and foundation. That is it. 

b) Normal sized hives: deep frame size. I winter on a single, ten frames. Some weeks before the flow I remove two to four outer honey combs, depends on the cluster size - I remove all unpopulated combs, scratch some honey cells open and put them into the super. Excluder in between. This makes an artificial flow weeks before the real flow. Fill everything up with foundation. Done. When it starts to get warmer outside, the cluster looses up and bees take down honey from the super down closer to the broodnest. Cells above the excluder get cleaned and prepared for the queen. Queen can't reach the cells, bees are in expansion mode. Because the bees clean out the upper combs, young bees go there. There they store honey and build new combs. Remember:

Bees build comb where the food is. 

Honey is stored only on comb that is constantly populated by bees. 

Two sentences to remember. (I learned them from the oldtimers.) A super of foundation is drawn in days once the flow hits and there is enough young bees. You want them in the super rather than in the broodnest. 

Note that we have very early strong flows. In April we do the first 30 kg/60 pounds - not just from winter canola, but from fruit trees+dandelions+some others, too. There is no time to build them up slowly until June or so. Also note, that the breed does matter. With buckfast bees you have half the work preventing swarming, because those bees do react to breaking cells. You break cells on or two times and they give up. Carnicas react, too, but with more and more swarm cells.  The difference of buckfast and carnicas is: in case of swarm preparations buckfast queens continue to lay eggs, despite the preperations. Carnica queens shut down egg laying. We don't have a fall flow, nothing. With flows later in the season I probably would prefer bigger hives, so the bees can buildup on their own.

The b)-method is similiar to the described "pyramiding up" you find here and there, just with less boxes and with excluder. It becomes necessary, because the standard bee hives have too broad combs and too many combs per box. You give too much combs and end up with less brood cells, because the broodnest is clogged with pollen and nectar. Especially pollen. Bees do not like empty cells and they stuff them with whatever they find. In early spring there is little nectar because of temperatures and therefore they forage for pollen. Bees cram the combs with pollen and they not always eat it up, which reduces space for brood laying. You get solid pollen combs. Brother Adam chucked them out of the hive. For a reason!

By taking away all empty combs, you prevent the bees stuffing too much pollen into the hive. Bees eat fresh pollen. Ok. Usually pollen is consumed after two weeks latest. (If you carefully observe, you will find it to be stored within the broodnest facing emerging capped broodcombs.) Any pollen that is stored for longer is more or less useless. (Exception: winter pollen stores, that gets covered with honey. You see _wet pollen_ with swarm preparation, too.) So don't leave empty combs in the hive in Spring, and don't give empty combs too early. Just right before the flow. If unsure about the timing, give only two-three empty combs and fill up with foundation. (In comparison to Walt's nectar management: I call it pollen management )

Do not give more room in the broodnest, instead give more supers. The broodnest doesn't need many combs. Once the queen has increased her broodnest to a maximum, she returns to cell number one after 21 days and replaces the emptied cell with an egg. From there she follows her laying path over and over again. The size of the cluster at the end of the winter indicates how many combs the queen needs. You see bees on six frames, she needs six frames for brood way until late May. If you find the cluster populating eight combs, she needs eight combs. Adapt and adjust the broodnest size appropiately.

A good friend of mine says, the bees do not swarm when they are satisfied. When do you see bees in the happy mode? When there is brood, a good queen and lots of food. By dispersing the brood throughout the hive, bees can get unhappy with that. (It is the same effect if you remove brood into supers, where bees quickly feel queenless and draw queen cells.)


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

bernhard, thanks for the detailed explanation. i've been through it a couple of times and i'm still working on it. this is the first time i've been introduced to some of these concepts and they are a little different than what is usually put forth, just like some of walt's ideas. 

i see that your swarm prevention involves breaking cells, how frequently do you inspect for cells? one of walt's observations is that new wax is not seen until after swarming (or abandonment of swarm ambition), do you see any wax being drawn on the new foundation frames you placed prior to finding swarm cells?

how long is it from when the first tree pollens come in and brooding starts back up (here it is mid february) and the strong spring flow (here it is mid april)?

what is your method for making increase? do you end up splitting the colonies that are trying to swarm despite your efforts at prevention?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> how frequently do you inspect for cells?


Every two weeks, but at end of May (which is our major swarm season here) every week. 



squarepeg said:


> one of walt's observations is that new wax is not seen until after swarming (or abandonment of swarm ambition)


I don't remember reading that in his script, are you sure? When first nectar comes in (fruit trees, especially plum trees) you see first wax. And yes, foundation is drawn quickly, partly because bees use wax off of the foundation and mix it with fresh wax. (White wax.) You usually find this after the first batch of young bees emerge from two to three capped combs. And of course you need a flow. 



squarepeg said:


> how long is it from when the first tree pollens come in and brooding starts back up (here it is mid february) and the strong spring flow (here it is mid april)?


Same here.



squarepeg said:


> what is your method for making increase? do you end up splitting the colonies that are trying to swarm despite your efforts at prevention?


I try to avoid splitting hives. I want those hives as strong as possible to make the most of every honey crop. So I do nothing that weakens them. For early queen rearing I pool capped broodcombs plus some nurse bees, though, taking one capped comb per hive. For increase of hive numbers and varroa reduction I remove all brood of all production hives three weeks before the end of the last major nectar flow, this is around summer solstice June, 21st. Brood gets pooled, feeded and treated (thymol). I make large mating nucs of each eight frames of capped brood and nurse bees (lightly shake the combs when removing them). Let the young queens mate. The best queens coming out of that are used as new hives, to requeen production hives and for sale. Dequeened nucs are combined into wintering units with queenright nucs. (My nucs are made of full-sized frames.) Brother Adam stated, that a queen should be born into paradise, means lots of food, lots of young nurse bees and so. So I am a believer in well-populated mating hives. In my experience you can make up bad genetics with good feeding and warmth.

To add more light into the discussion:



> If young workers are short on food their first days of life, they tend to begin foraging precociously, and preferentially for nectar. If they are moderately fed, they forage at normal age, again preferentially for nectar. However, if they are abundantly fed immediately after emergence, their vitellogenin titer is high, and they begin foraging later in life, preferentially collect pollen, and have a longer lifespan. This scenario certainly makes sense—a starving colony would want skip raising brood, and send out foragers to gather as much nectar as they could. A fat colony would want to rear brood and build protein reserves in order to swarm.


http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/

So remember: A fat colony would want to rear brood and build protein reserves in order to swarm.

If you want to produce fat bees, that want to swarm and do not forage for nectar, you provide lots of empty combs in the broodnest.  If you keep them tight - but not too hungry-, you still get lots of bees but eager to forage for nectar. So the real trick is not nectar management but pollen management. 

If you want to produce pollen combs, simply provide too much empty cells in the broodnest or you provide lots of comb in the broodnest. By checkerboarding empty combs between honeycombs - without excluder! -, you do exactly that. While this buffers incoming nectar and pollen in Spring, it just buys time. Walt says that: it buys you time until a date after that swarms do not occur naturally. Or so. Locations, locations. In my region there is a massive early flow in both pollen and nectar and you need two supers of empty comb to buffer this. If you checkerboard those combs with full honey combs, you'd need four checkerboarded boxes! Too much. That's more like providing many broodboxes, like the Tim Eaves method (or Oscar Perone from Argentina). While this may work in late flows, it completely fails with strong early flows and no flows in autumn, which is the case here where I live. 

So instead of throwing empty combs at bees in the broodnest to buffer incoming pollen and nectar, you are better off removing empty cells/unpopulated comb in early Spring to prevent the broodnest from clogging with pollen. (And thus reducing availability of broodcells for a long time, since surplus pollen is not consumed as long as fresh pollen is available.) Super right before the nectar flow hits with lots of empty comb above an excluder and you very well buffer the incoming nectar. Keep on supering. 

If you don't have the time or clue when or how to super, you simply super with two central empty combs and fill up with foundation. Foundation doesn't hold pollen  - and at the time they are drawn, there is a nectar flow, new combs get filled with nectar as they are drawn. In a strong flow and warm weather bees draw one super of foundation within days. no worries. You can make some extra honey, of course, if you provide empty combs. But on the other hand the fresh wax makes the bees happy and less prone to swarm. You reduce the surplus fat out of the nurse bees this way. If there is pollen stored in the two central combs, it is used up quickly for wax making.

As long there is fresh pollen out there, the bees won't starve. They usually make one comb of bee bread per hive, no matter how you restrict them, so that is what is really needed. During spring buildup you see the pollen dome above the brood, then this is eaten up, the broodnest up and running. You see single pollen cells or smaller patches of fresh pollen which is consumed quickly, very quickly and replaced with fresh brood. You'll find one comb of pollen, most of the time on one side of the hive (facing to the sun/warmth, while drone comb faces the cold walls), which is the reserve for rainy days.

So while you want fat bees in winter, you want sturdy bees in summer.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I try to avoid splitting hives.


Yikes, bees in the trees!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

bernhard, thanks again for the detailed explanation.

do you find and break queen cells in the biggest percentage of your hives during your prime swarm season? are the 5% that swarm the ones that do not respond to the breaking of cells?

your thoughts on 'pollen management' are thought provoking. i wonder how much of your swarm prevention success can be attributed to the breaking of swarm cells vs. keeping the brood nest tight and managing the pollen.

walt and i have had several discussions regarding new white wax not present until after swarm issue or abandonment of swarm ambition (what walt refers to as reproductive cut-off), and i am pretty sure this is discussed in the manuscript. this is something i and others have corroborated over a few years of observations. it is interesting that your bees will draw wax so early in the season.

you mentioned in your post 19 that checkerboarding takes too much time, but it seems to me that such frequent and thorough inspections would take as much or more time that the one time manipulation that walt describes. in any case, it sounds like you have come up with a system that is working well for you and that's what really matters.

the other consideration is the increase in honey harvest that those getting positive results with checkerboarding are seeing. can you share what you average harvest per hive is in a typical season?


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> it is interesting that your bees will draw wax so early in the season.
> ?


I find this most interesting, especially since I'm just north of you Squarepeg. My colonies ALWAYS build wax before swarming. I usually see white wax by mid March.....and no, they haven't swarmed by then. Are you giving them empty space to build before swarm impulse or do you keep them tightened down until swarm season? The white wax I see every March is typically in my feeder boards (empty space). When I see this, I add supers with empty frames (if I haven't by then), and I get new drawn comb fairly quickly. They will immediately fill this up with brood usually surrounded by honey.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

talon, i tried an experiment a few years ago suggested by mike bush and walt which involved putting new frames in prior to our main flow. the test was to see if there was any difference between frames with foundation vs. foundationless frames and the bee's willingness to draw new wax early in the season. what i found was that the foundationless frames did get drawn, but the frames with foundation got ignored. do your bees have syrup available in the early spring when they are drawing new wax? i have not been feeding. the first white wax i usually see is the cappings toward the top of the honey frames and doesn't appear until later in the spring about when the main flow picks up (tulip poplar bloom), and not much foundation gets drawn until about then.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

I meant to ask you if you were feeding or not. I do not, but I overwinter in double deeps if at all possible (the smaller colonies I will feed). Those larger colonies are the ones with 30-50 lbs of honey left coming into late winter/early spring and they are the ones that draw wax the earliest (go figure). I can't remember if you winter in singles or doubles? This could be the difference in our observations. Even though that much honey is still on the hive, they make more comb the following year which will store even more honey in the future. That comb is invaluable to me.
Additionally, I have also noticed that the bees draw wax on a foundationless frames before frames with foundation.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interesting talon, thanks for the reply. i'm overwintering in a single deep with one or two mediums. where are you putting the new frames that are getting drawn, i.e. just outside the brood nest?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

I don't really see any white wax or foundation being drawn until dandelions. We usually have a bit of a nectar dearth after dandelions where they stop drawing again for a week or two before the main flow starts.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> just outside the brood nest?


Correct. Between the brood and stores.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

TalonRedding said:


> I find this most interesting, especially since I'm just north of you Squarepeg. My colonies ALWAYS build wax before swarming. I usually see white wax by mid March.....and no, they haven't swarmed by then. Are you giving them empty space to build before swarm impulse or do you keep them tightened down until swarm season? The white wax I see every March is typically in my feeder boards (empty space). When I see this, I add supers with empty frames (if I haven't by then), and I get new drawn comb fairly quickly. They will immediately fill this up with brood usually surrounded by honey.


I also wonder about various comments I have seen that bees do not draw wax prior to swarming. One particular hive alone last spring went from a 5 frame nuc to a 40 frame colony. and they drew every bit of that wax from empty non foundation frames. And they did it all prior to any hives attempting to swarm.

All of my hives draw wax prior to swarm season. this is just the single largest case of just how much they will draw if given the opportunity. IN fact it seems to me about the best time of year to get comb drawn. they start making lots of drone comb after swarm attempts and as they move into foraging and storing.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

daniel, nucs appear to follow a different pattern and are observed by many to wax more vigorously and at times other colonies do not. i have seen this happen as well. walt attributes this to the colony being in 'establishment mode'. i am noticing that once i have have a deep and two or three supers it gets more difficult to coax the colony into drawing more supers, so i tend to give new supers to starter colonies instead.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I am aware of Walt observations and explanations. I agree with the even greater productivity of colonies in this establishment period. I also agree with his observations that it very well may extend into the colonies second year. I don't see the same degree of comb production in established colonies. but I still see considerable. I can count on 10 to 20 frames of drawn comb in an established colony.

I did have one third year colony this past spring that did not. I never was able to get the colony to become productive. I still don't know why.

But conversation often get side tacked when generalizations are then argued with specifics. As a general rule I still find colonies do in fact draw comb prior to swarm season. And I still find it the best period of the year to get comb drawn. With or without the establishment advantage.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Now this may seem strange, But I am going to make a bit of an argument against my own claims above.

This is due to the possibility that what I have observed so far is a fluke. Two few observations of two few hives for to short a period of time or any combination of those.

I reason to think that possibly typical beekeeping is advising that colonies be managed far to small.

If in fact established colonies do not rebuild every year once they have established. Is it wise to take away there finished colony?For a moment lets consider that my 5 frame nuc to 40 frame hive is the ability of an establishing colony. Should they not then be managed as a minimal 40 frame colony? Only additional supers beyond 40 frames are added or removed. but the basic colony is allowed to remain what it established itself as?

Could basically burn out form having there work removed be the reason I never got that third year colony to kick in? Possibly bees have a one in a colonies lifetime advantage to build a suitable home. and then we destroy it. they never get that advantage again. Adding a new queen is a poor replacement that achieves some degree of results.

Just some additional thought that lead to the idea that we create our worst problems.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interesting thoughts daniel. i too have been watching only a handful of colonies for a few short years. i do notice like many have reported that there can be considerable differences from one colony to the next in the same yard and all things being (apparently) equal. some colonies just seem to have more oomph than others, and with bees there always seems to be exceptions to the rule. i talked to walt last night, he is lurking and following this thread with interest. perhaps he will chime in on this subject of comb drawn in established vs. establishing colonies. i'm sure if anyone has a specific question he would be happy to address it.


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

squarepeg, quick question. Walt refers to using empty brood comb in his articles when applying his nectar management protocol. I use one deep and one medium as my brood chamber and all mediums for supers in my 8-frame "small cell" bee hives. I have a bunch of extracted medium frame honey comb in the freezer right now, but no brood comb. Can I use the empty honey comb frames instead of brood comb to checkerboard the medium boxes above the brood chamber when applying his nectar management protocol with the same affect or does it have to be brood comb?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good question bbf. walt's recommendation is that the comb used for checkerboarding should 'ideally' be deep enough for brood rearing . sometimes when uncapping for honey extraction the comb is cut back a little shorter than that depth down at the bottom of the frame. a lot of the frames that i have used for checkerboarding have been cut back like that and the bees still brooded up into them no problem. 

walt's comment on that was something to the effect: 'just make the best use of what you have'. so to answer your question no it doesn't matter whether or not the comb used to checkerboard has already had brood in it or not, and the depth is somewhat important but not critical.

some folks don't want to extract honey from comb that has brood in it. i don't mind it and in fact some of the best tasting honey (according to my customers) that i have extracted came out of comb that had previously had brood in it. i think it makes the extracted honey a little darker, but it seems to give the flavor a quality or complexity that it doesn't have otherwise. so far i have personally enjoyed our darker honeys more so than our lighter ones.

i am going to experiment slightly my late winter checkerboarding manipulation this next time around. instead of staggering the frames in the two supers whereby a honey frame in the first super has an empty comb frame directly above it, (hence a 'checkerboarded' pattern when looking at the distribution of honey and empty comb in the two supers), i am going to put honey frames over honey frames and empty comb over empty comb in the two supers. i am making this change after seeing how well colonies brooded up into a checkerboarded upper deep in a few double deep colonies that i had coming out of winter last year. i am thinking this might help dissuade the stopping of brood nest expansion at the gap between the two supers that i saw in a couple of mine last year.


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

Thanks squarepeg, I'll make sure I use the deepest comb I have for the "brood" comb. The only problem I've had with extracting from brood comb is when I run across capped drone cells. But now I just leave those frames in the hive and extract them the next time around. As far as placing the empty frames above empty frames and honey frames above honey frames, I thought I read that was the correct approach in one of Walt's articles. Was I mistaken? I probably am as there was a lot to absorb as I read most of them, especially when it came to his nectar management articles. But he's a good writer and will probably reread them 2-3 more times to get the full gist of them.

Since you are just two hours north of me, when do you normally add your 2 checkerboarded supers - in late January after the typical hard freeze (8 to 25 degree) weather passes or early February? 

Also, my friend who sells NUCs is coming over early to mid February, depending on the weather, to show me his way of making splits using my 9 hives. He sells around 150-200 NUCs a year, so I feel quite fortunate he's going to take the time to show me how to do it properly. I'm wondering if having the checkerboarded supers in place for a few weeks before he comes over will help, especially if we have a mild winter? I guess it can't hurt, especially if it keeps them from going into swarm mode before he arrives. What are your thoughts?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

barberberryfarm said:


> As far as placing the empty frames above empty frames and honey frames above honey frames, I thought I read that was the correct approach in one of Walt's articles. Was I mistaken?
> 
> *yes, walt's approach is to offset or stagger the honey and empty comb frames in the two supers. if you haven't already ordered it you may want to send walt a pm and request his 60 page manuscript with illustrations. it puts everything in one document and may be easier to follow than the pov articles.*
> 
> ...


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

Thanks squarepeg for all the great info!!! I'll have to PM Walt to get a copy of his manuscript.


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## Kidbeeyoz (May 8, 2013)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Really, that dome of empty cells above the excluder is the golden secret recipe. It is the same what Walter describes in his manuscript, just without all the boxes and shuffling of combs. You get this dome of empty cells, prepared for the queen to lay eggs into, by adjusting the broodnest size to the queen's ability to lay eggs. Not pressing, but adjusting. Do not let the bees build much combs in the brood area. Instead, use foundation in the honey supers. The young bees will start to draw comb there and once the young bees are directed upwards, the honey will follow. This is a nice upward motion, never stop or disturb this.


So Bernhard, to get it straight in my mind are you saying you lift the excluder to fit above the empty dome so the queen can lay in the unoccupied space or do you want the unoccupied space to remain and leave the excluder where it is?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Kidbeeyoz said:


> do you want the unoccupied space to remain and leave the excluder where it is?


Leave it where it is! You never will see more productive bees as in this state. (Without shuffling combs all day up and down the hive...just pure bee power!)


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I can't harvest pure honey variations, just a wild mixture of all sorts of blooms. I get a better price for special honeys, so it matters to me. Don't think it does any good to the honey quality, when I mix up overwintered honey with fresh honey


Great thread. Thank you to all.
I also found this problem, which detracts the quality of my honey, to my eyes at least. All we know that beekeeping is local. But it is also genetic (strains) and management (technical and decisions taken by the beekeeper). Bernhard the technique you use do you have information if also works with more prone swarm strains that yours buckfast?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Yes, it does. I have Carnica bees, but you need to take more care and pull the queen earlier in case.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Just right before the flow. If unsure about the timing, give only two-three empty combs and fill up with foundation.


Thank you Bernhard for your response to my previous question.

The first major stream of nectar in my zone starts in the second/third week of April. As I have an important pollen flow about 3 weeks before (end of March ) I note that some stronger hives begin the swarming of the preparations in the second/third week of April. What I do is put combs with foundation from mid-March at the limits of the laying zone. Put on average 1 per week for 3 to 4 weeks. I find that sometimes the combs are not used by the queen to laying and are fully of fresh pollen and some nectar. In your opinion how should I interpret this colonies that take advantage of the new combs to put pollen and those drawing the new combs to laying? Will be some swarming signal?


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## genmaster (Jan 10, 2015)

It controls swarming by giving the bees a place to work into, and as long as they perceive they would be leaving the home unprepared, if proper stores aren't met, they stay to protect/prepare the main hive, rather than leave.


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## genmaster (Jan 10, 2015)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Leave it where it is! You never will see more productive bees as in this state. (Without shuffling combs all day up and down the hive...just pure bee power!)


Concerning the bee excluder. It restricts the queen from laying another brood cycle, which if not used, increased brood makes increased honey.


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## genmaster (Jan 10, 2015)

*Re: TF For 5 Seasons of More - Please Stand Up*

I agree.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I am reading this thread with great interest.
If you take all the honey and force the Queen into a single deep where so the bees choose to store pollen...up with your honey or do they sacrifice limited brood space for pollen?

If you take all the honey how do you manage that single box over winter?

I am trying to get my head around the logistics of gorcing the Queen to remain an excluder in a single box. Does she not feel cramped and swarm or are you forcing her down just before the major flow and after maximum growth expansion?


Ian said:


> As the brood hatches the bees backfill the space with honey. As I strip the honey off during the first round and return empty boxes, they bees fill the boxes right down to the excluder.
> 
> After spring time growth is out of the way, the queen does not need anymore than one box of space. When I use to run doubles, the hive would finish off with about 8 frames of brood between both boxes, and honey capping overhead. Managing singles, all that honey is taken for harvest. This dome your speaking of might be more prevalent during times of hive expansion. When my excluder goes in, spring time hive growth has generally ended


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Somewhere I have misunderstood. I thought the arguement for a single deep was that the Queen cycles through her hive every 21 days. If so there is not a missed brood cycle as when she has filled the deep then bees are emerging, cellare thus empty and the cycle goes round and round.
My question with the frames of wall to wall brood where are the pollen stores for the brood?



genmaster said:


> Concerning the bee excluder. It restricts the queen from laying another brood cycle, which if not used, increased brood makes increased honey.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

WBVC said:


> My question with the frames of wall to wall brood where are the pollen stores for the brood?


Yes, you must be aware of all conditions while managing single hives, not all hives fill 8-9 frames with brood, but the ones that does need attention more so than double chamber hives.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

WBVC said:


> where are the pollen stores for the brood?


WBVC I don´t know if those numbers answer to your question, but I'll try.
A Langstroth frame has about 7000 cells on both sides (I read it somewhere) ;
-a Prolific queen lays about 3000 eggs/day;
- 3000 per day occupies cells of a face of a frame (the remaining 500 are in principle for provisions );
- Having 10 frames nest it takes 20 days to fill them with brood
- Workers take 21 days to be born ;
- The 21 first day the queen has the frame face where he started laying again available.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

WBVC said:


> I am reading this thread with great interest.
> If you take all the honey and force the Queen into a single deep where so the bees choose to store pollen...up with your honey or do they sacrifice limited brood space for pollen?
> 
> If you take all the honey how do you manage that single box over winter?
> ...


Yup you pretty much get the jist. Swarm control is done during spring in two chambers and by population control, she is managed downwards on the onset of our flow into then an empty brood box. Remember she will slow laying mid season, so the timing hits about right. Still lots of pollen stored but honey can be short if she uses 8-9 frames for brood . Gotta be quick with the feed.
Remember our management technique here is to keep our summer honey out of the nest. Sugar winters bees better than hard hard canola honey.
Single management shines in this part of the country. One box is more than enough to winter boomer hives.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

up with your honey or do they sacrifice limited brood space for pollen?

up with the honey, pollen used as it comes in.

If you take all the honey how do you manage that single box over winter?

Feed, Feed , Feed. Sucrose is 1/5th the cost of honey.

Crazy Roland


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## brownbuff75 (Jul 1, 2013)

I don't know why I read these message boards. I have already a thousand "experiments" that I want to try..... I guess what's one or two more.


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## martobg (May 29, 2012)

Bernhard, do you use upper entrances above the queen excluder? Have you ever had problems with bees not going through the queen excluder?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I tried entrances above the queen excluder. Too much pollen in the honey supers! Honey had too much water. Also the broodnest is the honey pump, so the honey better goes right through the broodnest. (Honey takers/receivers system.)

Never had problems with bees not going through the excluders. The trick is: keep strong hives. 

Bernhard


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

For clarification when you move the queen down into an "empty" box...just how empty is it? 
Is it just literally drawn comb, indrawn foundation or whatever is in the lowest box?
Unless I get the details correct I am heading towards failure


Ian said:


> Yup you pretty much get the jist. Swarm control is done during spring in two chambers and by population control, she is managed downwards on the onset of our flow into then an empty brood box. Remember she will slow laying mid season, so the timing hits about right. Still lots of pollen stored but honey can be short if she uses 8-9 frames for brood . Gotta be quick with the feed.
> Remember our management technique here is to keep our summer honey out of the nest. Sugar winters bees better than hard hard canola honey.
> Single management shines in this part of the country. One box is more than enough to winter boomer hives.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

It's the brood box they wintered in, empty meaning mostly hatched as she moved up to the second to lay. It's not exactly that way but generally works like that.


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## martobg (May 29, 2012)

Bernhard, during heavy nectar and pollen flow, such as canola, have you tried installing inside pollen traps to decrease the amount of pollen going to the broodnest, thus limiting the queen laying and freeing even more bees from nursing?


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: TF For 5 Seasons of More - Please Stand Up*

squarepeg said: i saw a fatbeeman video recently in which he does a split and introduces foundation frames alternated with all of the other frames and calls it 'checkerboarding'. this is very different that what walt is describing. 

I'm in the subtropics, please remember.
I have placed new frames in between brood frames. Sometimes I use the old frames I take out to do a split and sometimes I move them above the queen excluder - as a means to get new brood frames built.
It has worked for me. It does seem to strengthen the hive, definitely reduces swarming and is part of a frame re-newal programme.
Timing is important. It works bets earlier in the season and when there is a flow on.
I have not seen anything negative about splitting the brood? Could you please explain?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: TF For 5 Seasons of More - Please Stand Up*



max2 said:


> Could you please explain?


hi max, yes it is different in my climate. very little new wax is made on the early flows prior to swarming. for one thing is probably too cold, and for another the bees are observed to use all available nectar for broodrearing and establishing a thick band of honey overhead. they will only use the comb that is there and adjust their operations to utilize that amount of comb. 

if a frame of foundation is put into the broodnest or anywhere else during the preswarm build up they will ignore it until after swarming. they will sometimes draw new wax on a foundationless frame on the early flows prior to swarming. my experience has been that adding anything other than drawn comb during the spring build up ends up interfering more than helping.

i can see how this would be less of a problem in a more tropical climate with year round forgaing.


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## medbee (Dec 5, 2014)

*Re: TF For 5 Seasons of More - Please Stand Up*

Love this thread. Been pouring over it. This is what I call International Bee School --- Advanced Beekeeping-- Many thanks. I have a hive that was requeened last August and is now 1 1/2 deeps full of bees. They have capped about 5 frames of honey since August in the top deep. Went in 1/06/15 for short inspection and did not venture into bottom deep because it was only about 55-60 degrees. I expect I may find some capped brood and most likely some eggs down there. (I saw eggs in another hive on the same day.) I'm interested in max honey production. The apiary is in a great location with irrigated organic herbs blooming all spring,summer and fall. I also expect the broodnest to move up into top deep so I'm wondering if I should leave the capped honey the way it is or should I checkerboard it at this time? We may have 60 and sunny next weekend here so I could do it then.


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

Thank you Bernhard, IAN and others....I forced my bees into a single deep week before last. Bees here are working maple trees hard so I added a medium with fresh foundation to three that are strong. I asked a lot of people about double deeps vs deep and medium configuration and never got a answer that made a lot of sense. You all explained it very well and thanks for sharing. This whole debate on checkerboarding has even very informative thanks everyone ....thanks squarepeg for the post. I am In Year 2 now and realizing I know very little. Robert


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

Oops ...thanks Mellisa for starting post ....thanks Peg , Rolland, and others....Robert


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Bkwoodsbees said:


> I forced my bees into a single deep week before last. Bees here are working maple trees hard so I added a medium with fresh foundation to three that are strong.


hi robert. it seems like it might have been better to have left them with that empty comb to use until later in the season when they start drawing new wax again. in my location new comb building doesn't start until april or may. are you wanting to increase your hive count this year? if so, consider replacing those foundation supers with the deeps full of drawn comb and when the bees fill up both deeps (and before swarming) split them back down into singles. this will get you the added colonies, prevent swarming, and get them to the time of year that they can draw out the foundation in your supers.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Good advise Squarepeg, I do not place foundation on my hives until the white wax / main flow begins, if the foundation is placed on the hives during the early woodland flow the bees will just chew it up and use it for capping brood.


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

My plan this year is to make honey. Then do some summer splits by end of June. Unless the hives get in swarm mode. I have plenty of equipment ready if that happens. My last inspection when I forced them down there was fresh nectar in at least 1 frame. I thought maybe they will start building foundation out early? We are not having much of a winter this year. I will watch out for them chewing up the foundation. I want to increase but I really want to have some of my own honey. Which is the main reason I got the bees. I eat someone else's honey everyday and I want my own. I took nothing from them last year. I really appreciate the comments. I will be monitoring them and on the lookout for them chewing the foundation. You all are a really great help. Robert


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## David Medinger (Sep 5, 2014)

Great thread,
catching up!



> Ian:
> It's the brood box they wintered in, empty meaning mostly hatched as she moved up to the second to lay. It's not exactly that way but generally works like that.


I currently work with one (dadant) brood chamber, but last year i started 6 langstroth hives for experiments sake and it stunned me when i saw all the pollen stored in the lower brood chamber (after the queen had moved up and laid the upper 8 frames in the second one) there was just about 3 frames worth of brood left in the lower box and lots of pollen. 
I have low pollen coming in, in the fall, so i thought this could be a good strategy to get better pollen stores in the hive for late summer, since by then they are back in the lower brood chamber and need it for rearing winter bees.


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## skyscraper (Aug 29, 2016)

New here and to beekeeping. 
I'm trying to decide which method would be better, a single brood chamber with an excluder, or Walt's method somewhat juxtaposed on Tim Ives's method. Although this thread is somewhat old, it has all the relevant themes that I'm trying to base some decision making on.

The arguments made by Bernhard about the laying patterns of the queen are very compelling, but so are the ones and experiences conveyed by both Walt and Tim Ives.

One of the things that stuck out to me was this article by Walt, which points to Tim Ives too. (How else do you keep over 3 deeps of brood going, and then add to that during a flow?)

http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/how-many-eggs-can-a-queen-lay/

If you don't want to click on the link, Walt basically proves queens must lay way more than 1600 eggs a day during build up, over 3,000 per day at least.
Basically, this seems to point to a queen having more capability than they are given credit for. It seems they can keep a brood cycle of more than 3 deeps during the build up preceding the flow, or even more. If Tim pulls at a minimum 200 lbs of honey off one hive, it seems to me that's a lot more than is usually expected. I want more honey.

But, Bernhard seems to do good with avoiding swarming. If it is really from getting into the brood box and stopping swarm cells, then I'm not as interested in that method anymore, but if not, the extra time I would have to wait to get empty drawn comb frames to checkerboard could be put off a year while still getting a decent harvest.

Where I live, the swarm season is rather long, before April 1st to after the end of May, if not mid-June. Flow is appx. end of March to mid June.This makes me worry that the cutoff of swarm preparations that makes Walt's NM\CB method work might be too long a period of time, because here in East Texas, the flow can start pretty early and the winter is short and mild. So, if I checkerboarded Feb. 1st, I would be piling on supers for a long time, wouldn't I? 
Does anybody checkerboard in temperate Texas areas with success?

Walt's method is the most appealing to me at this time because of less need to look into the brood nest, less swarm worries, more honey, no worries about re-queening, and stronger hives are better overall, right?

That was part 1...sorry.

My other question, that I desperately need answers from experienced beeks on, is box size.

I want to go all mediums. But Walt and Tim and Bernhard and that "other guy" (sorry) with skyscraper hives in his backyard all have deeps. If it really matters, I'm willing to have a deep.

But, if I can have all mediums, that makes life, especially for checkerboarding, a whole lot easier. I could get empty comb for checkerboarding from the bottom box in the winter when the brood cluster should have moved up into the 2nd box from the bottom, which I read someone does already. 

The reason for my large post and desparation? My friend just found a wild hive, and we want to capture it in time for the fall flow, so my time for strategizing with box size is rather short. 

If needed by the mods, I'll make this it's own thread, but this thread is very relevant.


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