# Neighbor using Roundup weed killer.



## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

I have a neighbor who uses Roundup weed killer on a corn field that's about the size of a football field. He's willing to let me know when he's going to spray, but how long do I need to close off my hives until it's safe for the bees to fly?


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I wasn't aware that roundup killed bees.


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## carefree (Sep 9, 2014)

I thought so too till I saw this blog post at linda's bees.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Unless I'm mistaken Roundup isn't the problem it's suspected to be the GMO corn he's growing and I'm not looking to start that conversation.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

The neighbor sprayed a fertilizer in the early spring and the next day the strongest hive had a pool of dead bees under the entrance. Then, on 4th of July weekend, he sprayed the weed killer and once again, the strongest colony had a pool of dead bees under the entrance on that Sunday.

There were no internal signs of a problem in these hives and no other reason for a single day die off.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

I only want to know how long I should close off the hives until it's safe for the bees. I've heard that one or two days will let the chemical dry enough that it won't be a problem.... is this corrrect?


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## pndwind (Feb 17, 2013)

If you search for the application instructions you should be able to get an idea of drying time.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

I just sprayed 4 gallons all over my flower beds and yard. no dead bees. it dries in 20 minutes.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

We spray around some of our hives at dusk and never close them up. Never had an issue with it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Glyphosate (Roundup is one brand of glyphosate) mixtures normally have a surfactant as part of the mix. Surfactant is similar to dishwashing soap and is used to reduce the surface tension of the water also in the mixture so it makes a finer mist and covers the plants better.

The surfactant in the mix (essentially soapy water) can harm bees if it is sprayed directly on the bees. The soapy water can block the bees' breathing tubes and they die, just like if you were to intentionally try to kill a bee colony with plain soapy water. 

But if the mixture isn't sprayed directly on bees, there is no risk to bees from glyphosate.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

buford said:


> I have a neighbor who uses Roundup weed killer on a corn field that's about the size of a football field. He's willing to let me know when he's going to spray, but how long do I need to close off my hives until it's safe for the bees to fly?


I spray around and under my hives all the time. Never closed them up, never found dead bees following spraying. I try not to directly spray the entrance or bees that are bearding, so I usually spray around the hive from the back side so I don't spray directly into the landing board. I vote that you not worry about it. If they are dying, it's not round up that is killing them...
Good luck, dead bees are VERY Depressing.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

buford said:


> I only want to know how long I should close off the hives until it's safe for the bees. I've heard that one or two days will let the chemical dry enough that it won't be a problem.... is this corrrect?


The potential dangers of closing up your hives would probably be the biggest threat. 
This past winter I sat in on a talk by Dr VanEnglesdorp at the APHA convention. He said he has a lab assistant that was informally checking honey bee toxicity to all farm pesticides through a procedure they had devised. He didn't provide a handout but just read off some of the results. Of course the big name insecticides were at the top of the list. Someone asked what was at the bottom and he replied glyphosate showed no to toxicity according to their criteria. When one adds in the fact that it is typically used on row crops which aren't very attractive to bees I think it's pretty safe to assume that there are lots and lots of things beekeepers should be more concerned about.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

jim lyon said:


> The potential dangers of closing up your hives would probably be the biggest threat.



Couldn't agree more. If not done properly, closing up a bee hive in the summer can quickly lead to dead bees. I keep bees in the middle of RR crops. My experience suggests that round-up is the least of your concerns.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

buford said:


> I only want to know how long I should close off the hives until it's safe for the bees. I've heard that one or two days will let the chemical dry enough that it won't be a problem.... is this corrrect?


Your question cannot be answered because it is not a issue to begin with. There is no and never has been any indication that glyphosate harms bees. An affirmative answer would just reinforce the confirmation bias that you are so blatantly displaying.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Roundup and bees:
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/early/2014/07/23/jeb.109520.abstract
http://www.gmoevidence.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/BeesYet_Another_Suspect_in_CCD_2_.pdf


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## Metropropolis (Feb 15, 2012)

Steve in PA said:


> Unless I'm mistaken Roundup isn't the problem it's suspected to be the GMO corn he's growing and I'm not looking to start that conversation.


Is it because the corn is GMO, or is it because the corn is corn?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> Roundup and bees:
> http://jeb.biologists.org/content/early/2014/07/23/jeb.109520.abstract
> http://www.gmoevidence.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/BeesYet_Another_Suspect_in_CCD_2_.pdf


So how many days do you recommend that buford close off his hives off after spraying?


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

We lease a farm we own to another farmer. I do keep bees there, but I don't farm it. In May he roundup'd about 60 acres of it. My bees are about 100 feet down wind from the fields (and I roundup'd around the hives myself). My only problem this year had been too many bees in the hives.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So how many days do you recommend that buford close off his hives off after spraying?

>>The potential dangers of closing up your hives would probably be the biggest threat. 

I'm afraid I have to agree that confining them is probably more risky than not confining them. My point is that I don't think we can safely say that it does no harm.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

Well then, maybe the guy isn't really telling me what he's spraying on the crops. The fact is that both times he sprayed I had an instant die off of 1,000's of bees. So, what can be the explanation. 

I have no bias against the guy or weed killer except for the fact that I can't see another explanation for what I am look at.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

buford said:


> I only want to know how long I should close off the hives until it's safe for the bees. I've heard that one or two days will let the chemical dry enough that it won't be a problem.... is this corrrect?



I spray it in front of my hives to control the weeds. Never had a problem.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

If I have to spray, like I had to this year, I do it early in the morning hours before they fly. It gives the roundup time to dry and then bake into the plants later in the day. To my knowledge roundup doesn't hurt bees however spraying when the bees won't be present for a while gives me peace of mind. When we buy generic roundup (glyphosate) I mix it with 2, 4-d and a surfactant per label of each (basically making a generic landmaster). I spray that in the early morning also. Roundup isn't that scary, 2, 4-d is what is scary.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Around here, there is usually dew on the weeds in the early morning. I find that glyphosate is better applied when the target foliage is dry, so early mornings generally are not the best choice here. 

[hr] [/hr]

For those using glyphosate/Roundup, it is best to follow the label directions as to the mix ratio. While increasing the dosage for a faster knockdown might _seem _like a good plan, it is counterproductive in the longer term. To kill the weed roots, the herbicide must travel down to the roots, and killing off the above-ground foliage in a hurry (fast knock-down) may not allow enough time for the herbicide to travel down to the roots. Use the recommended mix ratio for the most effective root kill.

Also, if you are buying a Roundup brand name product, odds are good that a generic glyphosate products can save you significant money. I use a Cornerstone branded glyphosate at about 1/3 the price of Roundup branded product. Don't overlook pricing the non-Roundup product at local farm supply/coop stores.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Yeah if dew is present it's best to wait until it burns off, but around here it's usually as dry as a popcorn fart even early in the morning lol And the wind is usually at a minimum so drift is of low concern. That glyphosate/2, 4-d punch with a surfactant will knock down the glyphosate resistant weeds (kochia) in a quick hurry.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

O.K. Let me move to hypothetical. All of the replies have been about weedkiller not being a problem. So, lets assume that I live next to a guy who uses pesticides and is telling me he's only using weedkiller. Now, can a hive be closed off, with ventilation, for 2 or 3 days for the chemical to dry and not be as lethal. The fact is that these colonies die every time he sprays his "bee friendly" weed killer.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

I should also note that I'm not the guy mixing this stuff and I doubt that my neighbor is going to follow my advice whether dew is on the ground or the ratio is wrong or he's not following label directions. Lets assume that all he's willing to do for me is let me know when he's going to spray "X" and it's up to me to do or not do..... something.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Closing up hives during the heat of the day is almost always a bad idea. I would encourage him to follow label instructions that will almost always restrict insecticides to non-flowering plants and will warn against drift. We had bees (24-40 hives) in our commercial cherry orchard that was sprayed every 14 days with insecticides. We didn't spray with them until petal fall and stopped at harvest. We mowed or disced (the really old days) so that there were no blooming flowers. We never had a pesticide kill.

All of my current hives are in my little orchards. With any common sense you shouldn't have a problem. I have only had one bad problem with insecticides and that happened at the end of August. I never knew what they got into, but one hive (out of 6-8) lost all of their foragers in front of the hive. Very sad to see. The hive didn't die, but there was a very large pile of dead bees in from. Probably 4" deep by 1.5 feet diameter.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

buford said:


> The neighbor sprayed a fertilizer in the early spring and the next day the strongest hive had a pool of dead bees under the entrance. Then, on 4th of July weekend, he sprayed the weed killer and once again, the strongest colony had a pool of dead bees under the entrance on that Sunday.


Maybe some of the farmers could chime in, but it doesn't seem likely that he's spraying round-up on corn on the 4th of July. Something doesn't seem right with this scenario.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

AstroBee said:


> Maybe some of the farmers could chime in, but it doesn't seem likely that he's spraying round-up on corn on the 4th of July. Something doesn't seem right with this scenario.


I'm just a wannabe farmer but I would guess he's spraying wheat or another grain crop depending on where the location is. Grain crops get sprayed with glyphosphate shortly before harvest to help dry the seed.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

AstroBee said:


> Maybe some of the farmers could chime in, but it doesn't seem likely that he's spraying round-up on corn on the 4th of July. Something doesn't seem right with this scenario.


my thoughts exactly. How is flyover spraying going to get beneath the canopy of mature corn stalks to get to the weeds underneath at this time of year? Also, the part about the OP saying that "sprayed fertilizer" hurt the bees. Nobody sprays a corn crop with fertilizer at any time of the year.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Fertilizer is applied here at the same time the seeds are planted. The corn was cultivated a few weeks ago and is now almost 4 feet tall. The weeds are taken care of before the corn gets very tall either mechanically, chemically, or both. It was being sprayed for some corn critter for the past 2 weeks. Maybe the farming practices are different elsewhere but at this time of year, here, corn is sprayed with pesticides by a tall machine that can clear 3' tall corn or it's sprayed with pesticides by a cropduster. Pesticides on flowering plants are bad for bees as is drift.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

If sprayed at recommended rates the short term risk of glyphosate is very low. 

buford - You said he sprayed a fertilizer the first time and weed killer the second time. But what weed killer. The range of stuff on the market is from stuff that I don't like to get a smell of to stuff like glyphosate where direct contact is probably not good for you, but unlikely to hurt you if it happens once. Those both likely have very different different methods of being absorbed by the plants and are about as much alike in the way they work as corn and apples. 

If the dead bees had anything to do with the spraying, I would bet it was either a drift agent, surfactent, or would be more likely cross contamination from the spray rig. Lots of people fail to follow the application instructions, and if they are to lazy, stupid, or fail to care about that, you think they are cleaning up equipment correctly. Lots of that stuff requires triple rising spray equipment, hoses, and nozzles until empty and then flushing with ammonia or doing whatever method is recommended to break down the residue. 

If they fail to do that, then yea you could have had an insecticide kill off from fertilizer and weed killer application. 

But does not point to glyphosate being a bee killer, especially as a primary contact.


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

carefree said:


> I thought so too till I saw this blog post at linda's bees.


I've read a couple of articles on that site - too much BS and misinformation, in my view. Best avoided.

For many years now I've been spraying Glyphosate around the base of my hives and pathways etc in the early evening, after flying has finished for the day. There's never been a problem. I just add one of two drops of washing-up liquid into a full knapsack sprayer when filling-up, to add as a surfactant.


LJ


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Grain crops get sprayed with glyphosphate shortly before harvest to help dry the seed.

Yummy!


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

Over here, farmers spray their potato crop with sulphuric acid a week or so prior to lifting, in order to ensure that there's nothing green left growing which can block-up their machinery. Woe betide anything which gets underneath that spray ...

LJ


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >Grain crops get sprayed with glyphosphate shortly before harvest to help dry the seed.
> 
> Yummy!


Exactly, and there's currently no standard for residue. Give that some thought while downing your morning Wheaties.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

buford said:


> I should also note that I'm not the guy mixing this stuff and I doubt that my neighbor is going to follow my advice whether dew is on the ground or the ratio is wrong or he's not following label directions. Lets assume that all he's willing to do for me is let me know when he's going to spray "X" and it's up to me to do or not do..... something.


Why don't you just ask the farmer and get a straight answer rather than rely on the speculation that is being supplied here? What kind of answer do you think you are going to get?


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

Oxymoron......... A Bee Keepers using Monsanto product.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

frustrateddrone said:


> Oxymoron......... A Bee Keepers using Monsanto product.


Considering the number of beekeepers that have said they spray glyphosate around their hives, the use of that term is incorrect.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

frustrateddrone said:


> Oxymoron......... A Bee Keepers using Monsanto product.


Please... My bees are just fine here in the middle of thousands and thousands (millions?) of acres of corn and soybeans.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I would ask what he was spraying with that tank previously as well.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Well, after getting a very vulgar and insulting email from another member on this site I did some googling and found that the information I shared earlier regarding no standards for glyphosphate residue was incorrect. I should have known better than to post in any thread involving GMO, Monsanto, or glyphosphate.

I am glad that the person who sent the message is not my neighbor as they have the manners and vocabulary of a grade school child.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Steve in PA said:


> Well, after getting a very vulgar and insulting email from another member on this site


Nobody is supposed to be doing that. Tell Barry and the perpetrator will be dealt with. 

I know this because I got in trouble once a long time ago when I sent a message to a member. The message didn't even contain a 4-letter word; it just had an acronym .


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

It's all good. I have thick skin and a delete button.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It's your call, but I have no tolerance for members being uncivil to other members in private communication. One member just lost PM's due to incivility in a PM.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I worked on several farms when I was younger and they all had the herbicide mixtures down pat for any size tank that was being used. The biggest abusers of off label use of pesticides/herbicides are people who aren't farmers. If you know a field is going to get dusted with pesticides the smart choice is to move your bees. Or cover them, the pesticides they use on the handfull of crops they grow here dissipate within a few hours, not days. Off label use, poor judgement, not educating oneself, not reading a label, using with winds, using on flowering crops... if you know someone's a half wit or a shady character do what you have to do to keep your livestock healthy such as moving them. Its like standing in front of a train and expecting the train to go around you.


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## mr0be (Mar 11, 2014)

I have a question
My neighbor spared on Tuesday afternoon,on Thursday morning I noticed there was no activity in one hive. I inspected and found 98% of the colony dead. There is a lot of honey and nectar in this colony is it safe to let it be robbed out by my bees.
Need help before it's too late.


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## mr0be (Mar 11, 2014)

Forgot to mention not sure what was sprayed,will have to speak to his landscaper


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

Most of the row crops are already "round up ready" so why would he need to spray round up? I'm not a farmer but I hear a lot of discussion about farming and crops being from a farm ranch community. Most spraying is done for insects, but again I don't know all there is to know about farming other than the fact that they're killing us with all the crap they put on our food.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Roundup ready means it can withstand roundup so the whole field can be sprayed to kill weeds amd other vegitation.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

wild-b said:


> Most of the row crops are already "round up ready" so why would he need to spray round up? I'm not a farmer but I hear a lot of discussion about farming and crops being from a farm ranch community. Most spraying is done for insects, but again I don't know all there is to know about farming other than the fact that they're killing us with all the crap they put on our food.


Because a crop is "round-up ready" means that the crop will withstand being sprayed with Round-Up...but hopefully not the weeds. Most spraying is NOT for insects, and, I agree, there IS a lot you don't know about farming.


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

ah I see Thanks for the info


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## Sky (Jul 7, 2015)

Buford, I think the answer is "it depends on a lot of factors".....

When I have a heads up on spraying events around here I usually[key word-"usually"] try to screen the bees in for the day with a robber screen with the entrance closed-this lets the bees get some air and regulate hive temps a little bettter....I open up them up late in the day - time enough to stretch wings, make a quick cleansing flight, but not long enough to get into a foraging rhythm - next day they are free. 

if you are concerned about wind drift (not an issue for me)- maybe an idea is to screen the bees in and then cover hives with a wet sheet till the poison cloud has drifted over , or better yet, screen and move the hives upwind/elsewhere for the day. 
As many have mentioned, don't seal up the hive (no heat/air exchange) in the summer time unless you have promised to bring a big bowl of baked bees to a picnic 


Sky


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

some times they mix bug poison with weed poison and even fungal poison to save labor. 
poison is poison.
I use a weed wacker!
Buford when I lived in south jersey my bees got poisoned repeatedly and the only real solution was to move the bees


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

I'm going to assume that the neighbor is not telling me what he is really spraying. The fact is that the two days out of the year that he sprayed, these colonies died. I have heard that if you confine bees for a day or two, then the substance that was sprayed would have dried sufficiently so as not to be as harmful to the bees. If some of these posts are true (that it's very harmful to confine the bees for any length of time), then migratory beekeeping is impossible.


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

move the bees is about the only choice if it keeps killing them


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

If your neighbor is spraying corn at the tassel/silking stage, bet it's not roundup, or even a herbicide. Fungus, Corn earworm moths and Japanese beetles are more likely the pests at that time.

"Early spring" is not as informative as crop stage, such as before emergence, 2 leaf, 5 leaf. 
I'm just guessing that 4th of July the corn might be tasseling. Not trying to be picky, just trying to help.


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## brettj777 (Feb 27, 2013)

buford said:


> O.K. Let me move to hypothetical. All of the replies have been about weedkiller not being a problem. So, lets assume that I live next to a guy who uses pesticides and is telling me he's only using weedkiller. Now, can a hive be closed off, with ventilation, for 2 or 3 days for the chemical to dry and not be as lethal. The fact is that these colonies die every time he sprays his "bee friendly" weed killer.


I would move your bees. You arent gonna win that one. And when he asks why, explain you are having unexplained die offs and that means they are getting into something toxic. Nothing personal. Just looking out for my bees.


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## brettj777 (Feb 27, 2013)

buford said:


> If some of these posts are true (that it's very harmful to confine the bees for any length of time), then migratory beekeeping is impossible.


Migratory beeks use screened bottoms and drive at night to keep bees cool. People who block their hives off may not be ass mindful of ventilation and could cook their bees.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Overheating of migratory hives while loaded on a truck certainly can be a concern. Keeping the truck _moving_ as much as possible helps keep the bees cool. Traveling at night, also helps. I have seen comments by some commercials about periodically spraying water on the loaded bees. But the typical migratory hive is likely to have a solid bottom, not a screened bottom. As most migratory hives are palletized, a typical screened bottom on a hive would mostly be blocked by the boards on the pallet underneath. 

In some cases, the pallet itself *is* the bottom board. See post #29 of the linked thread for some photos of this design ...
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?219802-Migratory-Pallets/page2


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