# MAQS Treatment results and questions



## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

OK, so this morning I treated with MAQS.

Here's the result as of this afternoon:










How in the heck is this supposed to kill mites if no bees will go in the hive?


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

OK OK, I remember, this is supposed to kill male mites in the cells. The females will not be able to reproduce. But come on now, there has to be a lot of mites now living OUTSIDE the hive. Hopefully they go in so that they are killed.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Temperature? How much/many did you use?


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## John_H (Dec 2, 2009)

I tried it on 3 hives earlier this season. Before the hot weather and didn't get a reaction like yours. Did sugar roll tests on two of the treated hives a couple weeks ago and both were below treatment levels.


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## oldenglish (Oct 22, 2008)

Really helps to read up on a treatment before you go dumping it in the hive. If you read the FAQ on the MAQS website or read the research results from the University of Hawaii and you will see that this is a common occurance with MAQS. Its also not an issue as over the next 24 hrs the bees go back inside. I assume you are venting as required per the instructions.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

I know that bearding is common with MAQS. I used two strips (one package). 

Oldenglish, I did read the instructions before "I went dumping it in the hive" and I know that bearding is common. I think you should read my post before you go dumping on this forum. My question was how the heck is it supposed to kill mites with the bees outside. The instructions never answered that question. 

Temperatures are in the mid 70s with low humidity. 58 tonight.

By the way, with all the bees plugging the entrance, I'm not sure how much ventilation they're getting inside. I opened up my SBB.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

c10250 said:


> I know that bearding is common with MAQS. I used two strips (one package).
> 
> Oldenglish, I did read the instructions before "I went dumping it in the hive" and I know that bearding is common. I think you should read my post before you go dumping on this forum. My question was how the heck is it supposed to kill mites with the bees outside. The instructions never answered that question.
> 
> ...


Aw man, nice temperatures!!! I thought we were doing good getting down to 90F!!!! Looks like you have some good weather to treat in. I guess if the instructions state that the bees will beard like that then they must have it figured out that the bees will get dosed at some point. 

Those pictures that your friend posted of the mite drop were very impressive! Likening the treatment to chemo-therapy kind of made me shudder though. Definitely makes me wonder about it's toxicity. Definitely working on the mites, though.

Ed


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## jams bees (Oct 4, 2008)

￼Want the latest from NOD? Email [email protected] and ask for the NEWS Notes. It comes as a PDF file but is too big to post here.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

Intheswamp said:


> Aw man, nice temperatures!!! .
> 
> Ed


We had a brutally hot July. I've been waiting to treat for a while now. First nice weather in over a month.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

Intheswamp;697020
Those pictures that your friend posted of the mite drop were very impressive! Likening the treatment to chemo-therapy kind of made me shudder though. Definitely makes me wonder about it's toxicity. Definitely working on the mites said:


> He's going to post some final pictures. He said it's even more impressive now!! It's hard to imagine how many mites are there. I'd like for people to look at the picture and guess. I bet when all is said and done, he's well over 5,000 mites dropped. No wonder that hive was struggling.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

UPDATE: All of the bees are now in the hive, and hauling out dead brood, dead bees, and the MAQS gel. Very little activity in terms of bees coming and going, however, our flow did end last week.

It's hard to estimate the number of bees that died or the amount of brood that died, but I don't think it was much. If I had to guess, I would say less than 100 bees and 100 brood died.

My drop level was impressive, but not a ton. This was a new hive put together last May. I would say that I had about 1000 mites drop in the first 24 hours. Not much dropping now.

Hopefully my queen survives and is not superceded. 

*I have a question on what to look for in the brood box after treating.* I think that my queen probably would shut down for a few days. If she starts up in a few days, when should I inspect, and what should I be looking for. Obviously eggs and larvae. I'm thinking a 10 day inspection, and look for uncapped brood. If none is found, I better order a queen.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

c10250 said:


> however, our flow did end last week.


Better look for other reasons cause the flow is still going. Checked bees on Tuesday and nectar coming in.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

Barry,

It's all local. My flow ended here last week. Actually, it ended here 6 days ago. That's why I treated. Here's my data. The graph on the left is total hive weight in pounds. The graph on the right is daily gain in pounds.

The first spike in weight was the black locust. Then it leveled off. The second spike was the summer flow, starting with Linden. It has leveled off again, and I will get a third spike starting the first week of September (goldenrod).











Ken


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## John_H (Dec 2, 2009)

Very cool graphs. Makes me want to put a hive on a scale. How long have you been tracking? Do you have prior years to compare?


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## khaas15 (Feb 17, 2010)

Here is the weight gain of my hive. I am in the Bartlett area of Illinois. As you can see from the two hives, it is really all local.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Except that there are other factors that effect hive weight gain/loss, not just nectar. Your queen could have started slowing down in brood production a week or so ago and your field force could be less as well.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

John_H said:


> Very cool graphs. Makes me want to put a hive on a scale. How long have you been tracking? Do you have prior years to compare?


I do have to say that I will never keep bees without at least one hive on a scale. It's amazing the stuff you can tell about your hive. For instance, you can obviously tell when the flow is on, but did you know that you can get a good approximation of how many pounds of bees are out foraging at any given time? Also, it's neat to see how much nectar a hive evaporates over night. It's also interesting to see how much the weather effects what they bring in. I have kept a hive on a scale all winter to see a daily drop in weight. Very cool.

Also, you can compare your season to historical data and submit your results to NASA. NASA's honeybeenet is always looking for hivescale data. Visit them at http://honeybeenet.gsfc.nasa.gov/

Finally, you will need a platform scale. These scales can be found for cheap on Craig's list. My brother and I have three hives on scales. I don't thing we paid over $40 for any of them.

Ken


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

Barry said:


> Except that there are other factors that effect hive weight gain/loss, not just nectar. Your queen could have started slowing down in brood production a week or so ago and your field force could be less as well.


There are a lot of factors that effect hive weight, but none more than nectar intake. About 4000 bees weigh a pound. The hive was gaining 2-4 lbs per day, then it tapered off to nothing in a matter of days. I think it's safe to say that it's nectar shutting down. I don't think the hive is dropping or gaining the population of bees required to make up that weight. Also, if you saw the fields around here, there would be no doubt in your mind that the weight corresponds to nectar. It's uncanny how when something blooms, you get a pop in weight. When something shuts down, you get no weight increase.

Barry, there is one sure-fire way to tell that hive weight gain is due to nectar. All you need to do is weigh your hive at night, and then again in the morning. The hive will easily lose half its weight gain as they evaporate the nectar. Also, a strong hive uses about a pound of stores a day. When the nectar shuts down, your strong hive will decrease in weight by about 1 lb per day.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Sorry to be off topic here, but could someone post some pictures or describe how they set up a hive to use a scale? Thanks, Ed


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

Intheswamp said:


> Sorry to be off topic here, but could someone post some pictures or describe how they set up a hive to use a scale? Thanks, Ed


No problem. Here's a good link http://honeybeenet.gsfc.nasa.gov/About.htm

Here's a pic from the site:


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Ok, feed scales. I get it now. Thanks. Ed


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

****UPDATE******

OK, it's been two weeks since I treated and I've done an inspection today. Now, for what it's worth, we are currently in a dearth, and I expected my queen to shut down anyway. The goldenrod is just starting to pop here.

This is a BOOMING hive. I actually had to inspect over the course of two days because of the number of bees that were boiling out when I separated the hive bodies. The first day I inspected the top deep. The next day, I kept the cover on the top deep and lifted it off the bottom deep, placing it on the ground, so the bees couldn't get out. I then inspected the bottom deep.

I didn't find any brood in my upper deep. This time of year, I think that is to be expected. Backfilling.

I searched my lower deep until I found some brood. I went through four frames with no luck. On the fifth frame I finally found some VERY young brood. The brood was probably 1-2 days since hatching. I didn't look for eggs because it was hard enough looking for brood with all the bees on the frame. After I assured myself that my queen was laying, I closed up the hive.

So, my opinion is that I have a laying queen. She definitely slowed down, or even shut down for at least a week. (Now I didn't inspect the last 5 frames of the bottom deep, so there might actually be older brood.)

Hopefully with the MAQS, and with my queen shutting down for a while, I kicked the mites behinds enough to help this hive through the winter.

Ken


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## fr0sty (Jun 13, 2009)

I just treated two of my hives today around 2pm and then checked up on them around 7pm. Both hives were strong and full of bees. Both of them also have SBB's, but I closed them up and hopefully can track the mite drop.

at 7pm:
Hive #1 (two deeps and a medium):
Bees were bearded up a little outside, not too much. However, it looked like there were around 100 very disoriented or dead bees outside on the ground. It was very concerning and it definitely convinces me that it's super harsh on the bees.

Hive #2 (two deeps and 2 mediums):
Bees were bearded up extensively outside, similar to OP's picture. On the ground, maybe around 50 dead bees and I could see them bringing out more dead adults and brood.

Hopefully when the treatment's finished, both queens will still be there and laying and setting up the hive to make it through winter strong.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

If I had any complaints at all about MAQS, it's that these reports have you so concerned about killing your queen. I wonder what the actual percentage of queens are killed with MAQS. 

As I said in another post, it's like chemo therapy for bees. You kill the mites just prior to killing the bees. I do have to say, though, it sure does a number on the mites.

Ken


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## jams bees (Oct 4, 2008)

Granted it does a number on the mites. Killing the queens also really knocks back the mites. I experimented with 4 yards of 32 each. All hives were checked for a laying queen prior to applying the strips. Temps were in the mid to upper 80's during the test. 

Test 1; one yard was on a flow and each hive had a super on it. This yard did the best with only 1-2 queens lost. The other yard just 10 miles away was not on a flow and we had a loss of 10 of the 32 queens. We went back 7 days later and looked for eggs and cells. The yard on the flow the queens were laying up a storm. The second yard they were were laying but not as prolifically.

Test two; I received an email from NOD Apiaries suggesting that shifting the second brood box to allow more ventillation would reduce queen losses. They also had reports of lower losses if the bees were fed at the same time.

So we did both, set the top boxes back and fed a gallon of syrup.

We did this on two yards just a few miles apart and had the same terrible results with one third of the queens in each yard dead. Feeding and ventilation did not have any appreciable effect.

If you don't mind the queen losses then this is a great product. Now try adding the cost of the queen to your balance sheet and it doesn't look so good.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

jams bees said:


> Test two; I received an email from NOD Apiaries suggesting that shifting the second brood box to allow more ventillation would reduce queen losses. They also had reports of lower losses if the bees were fed at the same time.


Oh sure, dilute the acid vapor by shifting boxes and you lose less queens.
What if we just lay the quick strips in the middle of the bee yard and not bother placing them in the hive?
I'll bet there would be less queen loss yet!
Go by their label. Their label is the law 
Speaking of illegal treatments; are you aware that treatments need to be applied by label instructions?
MAQS was approved as instructed by label instructions.
Any added ventelation just reduces efficacy in my opinion / experience.
MAQS is a flash treatment, period.
Any dilution of the vapor just reduces efficacy.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

Jams Bees: That was an interesting experiment. I'm no expert at this, but after 7 days, I don't believe my queen started laying. Maybe the combination of a dearth and MAQS will shut the queen down for quite some time. Could that be why your yards in a flow didn't loose as many queens after 7 days?

I'm pretty sure that at 7 days, I would have thought my queen was a goner too. I looks like she started laying again after 10 days. If I wasn't in a dearth, she might have started laying sooner, or never stopped. I don't know, something to think about. Interesting results though.

If I ever do this again during a dearth, I'm not checking for a queen for at least two weeks. 

Ken


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

Here's my hive-scale data, and when I treated. As you can see, we entered a dearth about a week before I treated.

NOD - This might be an interesting experiment to run. Maybe the queens just shut down for longer during a dearth, and people assume they are dead. You report that there are less queen losses when people feed. What could go on in the hive to give those results?? I bet it's just that the queen shuts down longer during a dearth.


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## fr0sty (Jun 13, 2009)

Update - 24hrs since treatment:
Temps were in the 80's yesterday and around mid to high-70's now with irene about to come.

Hive #1:
Mite count only 115. dead bees and brood coming out. Maybe shouldn't have treated this hive. I thought there were more mites because of an earlier check (24hr - ~40 mites), but afterwards, the hive became queenless and had a laying worker for a bit until I combined it with a nuc. I really don't know why so many bees from this hive got disoriented/killed with the treatment compared with Hive #2.

Hive #2:
Mite count of 750. dead bees and brood coming out also. This hive looks like it's doing much better than Hive #1.

On another quick question, what are the typical 24-hr mite drops that are tolerated until you have to treat?


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

I've treated 5 hives so far with MAQ's and of those I've either lost the queen or the bees have superseded within two weeks after treatment on three hives. The two that didn't have queen issues are in the shade for all but an hour during the day. Treatment temperatures on these hives ranged from the low 80' to low 90's. I only have one hive left to treat and plan to wait until September when the daytime temperatures are in the 70's and that's what I will do next spring too.

It seems to me there should be a temperature range where you get the best trade-off between mite reduction and queen preservation. Does anyone know what that may be? I'm thinking that it would be better to treat at the bottom of the temperature range than the top end where I've been.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

I treated 6 hives with MAQS and beat the odds, queens came through in all of them. I put the strips on right around 4pm on a day that was around 80 with temps the following days being at most low 80s. I also pulled the strips on day 4. Certainly just my opinion, salt grains required, but I think high 70s to 80 is a good temperature, and applying them in the late afternoon is also a good plan. I'm pleased with the results, but I wouldn't want to put MAQS in a hive in the morning on a day when the hives will get beat by the sun during the strips' first few hours out of the pack. The activity at the entrance was severely dimished for the days during the treatment. I removed the strips, found the queens, and went away for a week. When I returned the entrance activity was booming.

More: I keep my entrance reducers in all summer. I also have closed off my screened bottom boards fairly tightly (for other opinions). I initially pulled the reducers per the instructions, but within 10 minutes one of my hives was getting fiercely robbed by another. I put the reducers back in and opened about 1/3 of the screen portion of the bottom board. Robbing calmed down with the guards being able to once again defend the entrances and I believe the screens gave as much ventilation as what is expected at the entrance.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I treated 3 hives yesterday noon with MAQS. Daily mite drop of around 30-40. Temp about 85 with comfortable humidity. Closed off SBBs, upper entrances(3/4" drilled holes) open. Bottom entrances open.

Hive 1- Behaved normally during and after. No noticeable dead bees. 24 hr drop- ~1000

Hive 2- Behaved normally. 50-100 dead bees. 24 hr drop- ~1500

Hive 3- Hive from 2 weak hives added together 2 wks ago. Each in a deep and a med. Rearranged brood to get it in a deep and 2 meds., pulled empty deep. Set off robbing. Reduced entrance to single bee-width, closed off drilled upper entrance. Hundreds of dead bees (robbing?), bearding. 24 hr drop- ~750

Will pull strips in 7 days and look for queen/eggs.


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## jams bees (Oct 4, 2008)

Sure Harry, Nice sarcasm!! Tell it to the people who developed the MAQS. They are still trying to figure out how we can use their product without killing queens. They are the ones who recommended the changes, not me. Did you even read my post?


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## jams bees (Oct 4, 2008)

We did go back to the first problem yard 10 days later. A total of 17 days after the treatment. Out of the 10 colonies that showed no laying queen after 7 days only one had started laying again. All of the others had emergency cells in them. I think the bottom line is, treat with MAQS during a flow even though it is more work with the supers on. The bees will handle it better with more volume in the hive, as NOD suggests, and they will recover faster.


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## stripstrike (Aug 29, 2009)

I pulled the strips yesterday from three hives that were in the 30-40 range for natural mite drop a week ago. I didn't want to do much more than take the strips out but did pull a few frames from each. I saw the queen in one of the three, and she was dropping eggs into cells as she went. This was in the brood box that had the strips on top of the bars. Also, this was a split made over the fourth of July so she's a pretty young queen.

All three had huge counts of mites on the sticky boards, enough that I wasn't going to count.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Interesting test JB's, there is obviously a certain risk in using this product, you arent the only one reporting this type of result. Can you give us some more info about weather conditions at the time and also hive configuration? Trying to figure why your results are so much different that Randy Olivers that was recently published in the ABJ.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

stripstrike said:


> enough that I wasn't going to count.


 I didn't really count. just sampled a couple of squares and multiplied.


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## jams bees (Oct 4, 2008)

Jim, That was all in my original post. The daytime highs were in the mid to upper 80's with lows the upper 50's. Very low humidity. The first two yards all had at least one super on them. They all have a 12" x 3/8" entrance. The second test batch of two yards we pushed the top box back 3/8 inch and fed them a gallon of syrup. No supers on the majority of them. Approximately the same temperatures. Hope that answers your question.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

7th day progress report: Weather has been warm (Highs around 85) and dry.

Hive1- Acting queenless. Still some capped brood. No eggs or open brood. Dozen or so emergency cells.

Hive 2- Saw queen. Still some capped brood. No eggs or open brood.

Hive 3- Did not see queen but lots of eggs. 2 swarm cells. Still some capped brood. No open brood.

Seems like this treatment is pretty harsh. Will check again in 7 days.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I know this is extreme but how about pulling the queen the first day?


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

cg3 said:


> ..... Will check again in 7 days.


keep us posted


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## bison (Apr 27, 2011)

New beek here - I treated my 2 hives with MAQS five days ago, starting in the late afternoon. Double deeps with three supers on each. Temps have been around 80 degrees. The first morning I had a lot of dead bees around each hive and activity seemed low. Only one hive has a SBB that I put a sticky board on - easily 1000 or more dead mites on it the first morning. By the next day all appeared to be normal with lots of activity around both hives. Things look normal now, though I have yet to look inside. Will probably be able to do so this weekend and will report.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

If you just treated today, I wouldn't bother going in there this weekend. Give it at least a week, maybe 10 days. Then go in and look for signs of a queen. If you're like most, you definitely will have your queen shut down. You just should make sure that you still have a queen after a few weeks.


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## jams bees (Oct 4, 2008)

I'm not sure how you would want to do that. You'd have to put them in a queen bank with attendants then kill the attendants when you re-introduced the queen as they might be harboring mites. You'd have to keep the queen out at least three days if not a week then put her in a candy cage for reintroduction. You'd also have to go through the hive and cut the queen cells before you put her back in. Sounds like a lot of work with no guarantee that they would accept her.￼ 

email; [email protected] for the latest info from NOD the makers of MAQS.

Ask for the "MAQS use chart August 2011"

too big to post here


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

7th day status:

Top feeders on but being ignored.

Hive 1- Bees acting queenless. No eggs or open brood. Many emergency queen cells.

Hive 2- Did not find queen, but many eggs. No open brood.

Hive 3- Saw queen, but no eggs or open brood. 2 swarm cells.

So, it appears that they shut down and queens were stressed out. Probably too soon to say that I lost 2 of 3 queens. If I use it again I will provide more ventilation. I'll check back in another week or so.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

I asked Randy Oliver on a different formum the following question.

>
> >I know you recommend using according to label directions but if I was to
> use one [MAQS] how many days later could I add the second strip to kill the
> mites that were left in the sealed brood?


Hi Mike,

I'm currently experimenting with single strip treatments in hot (90+F)
weather, hoping to knock back the mites until we can pull the honey (this is
a bottleneck for us here at Comedy of Errors Apiaries). FWIW, the strips
are much stickier to handle in hot weather, have a much stronger formic
smell, and REALLY require good gloves.

> I guess my question would be when mites emerge, how long before they will
go back to mate in the brood cell?

In answer to your question, the mite life cycle under the capping is 12
days. Emerged mites are phoretic for about 5-7 days before re-entering a
cell. However, they are mated prior to leaving the cell.

There is still much experimentation to be done with MAQS, as well as with
other application methods for formic acid (such as MiteGone, Amrine flash,
and Chapleau flash). I am not making any recommendations, simply reporting
on what I have actually tested.

The major advantage of MAQS is that one doesn't need to handle liquid acid
(although in hot weather, liquid leaks from the strips into the plastic
bags).

The mfr is planning on running more tests with single strips, and I am in
communication with him re suggestions for improvement and reports of
problems. I'm not at liberty to share, but he has allowed me to see yet
unpublished data that confirms how surprisingly tolerant queens are of the
fumes.
-- 
Randy Oliver
Grass Valley, CA
www.ScientificBeekeeping.com

Since his article said the single strip killed 91% of the mites, but my interpretation of his articel "didn't kill as much brood and didn't kill the mites under the capped brood" I'm looking at using one strip followed some number of days later by putting on the second strip to kill the mites that survived under the cappings. anyone tried it, how many days later did you put on the second strip.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

wildbranch2007 said:


> ....I'm looking at using one strip followed some number of days later by putting on the second strip to kill the mites that survived under the cappings. anyone tried it, how many days later did you put on the second strip.


Doing Varroa math:

MAQS is a 7-day treatment, but I believe it kills mites during the first 3-4 days. So, if you use one strip and DO NOT kill mites under cappings, you will be left with mites emerging on day +4 that will live, enter brood, and be capped over again on day +9.

Also, if you do not kill mites under the cappings, capped mites will continue to emerge until day +12. Those bees capped after treatment presumably have no mites.

I would treat again on day +8 or +9.

However, the reason to use MAQS is to kill mites under cappings. If you're not going to use it for this, why not just use hop guard twice?

Ken


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

c10250 said:


> Doing Varroa math:
> 
> I would treat again on day +8 or +9.
> 
> ...


I was just sitting here doing the calulations. I am doing two calcs, i was debating with myself, not much fun but i usually win, do i figure using the worker time table or the droan time table, I would guess it would depend if it was spring or fall. I was looking at anywhere between 6 and 10 days.
Hopguard isn't leagal in N.Y. last I checked, I know nothing about it. I've used MiteawayII since it came out successfully with no queens lost. Since I'm going to start treating some hives tomorrow and don''t want to lose queens at this time of year I'm using apiguard. I'm looking to use MAQS in the spring when I can afford to kill queens. If you read and look at Randy Olivers trials, both trials were done in cool around 70 degree f. right now its 90+ so the trial is no help to me. I figure I have a year to figure out what works here for me or I'll start mixing my own formic. and hopefully the Manufacurer will have published or refined the strips to make them more friendly to queens.


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