# homemade frames...



## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

are you talking about the endbars?


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## georgiabees (Feb 2, 2010)

Billboard said:


> Im going to make my own frames. I bought 10 just to look and come up with a way to make them simple. I see the top is 1 inch wide from side to side. The sides start at 1.3/8" and drops down to 11/8" at the bottom. im thinking of just making a 1 inch frame all the way around. Is there a certain reason why the sides taper like they do. Or will making it all one size be ok?


WHY?
Not very productive use of time compared to cost.
The taper is for Bee space travel around ends, violate Bee space and Hell to pay with burr comb.

John Pluta http://GeorgiaBees.blogspot.com


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Yes the end bars. Will 1 inch be enough for the comb. 1 inch will give them bee space.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Billboard said:


> Is there a certain reason why the sides taper like they do. Or will making it all one size be ok?


They're self spacing when pushed together. The taper gives room for bees to move around the sides. I doubt it would be a problem except they wouldn't be self spacing.


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## Tortuga (Dec 17, 2014)

Maybe this will help.. 
http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/dadant-type-frames/

for steps in the process


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

I saw that. Thats where i got the plans. That taper is a bit of work. I dont have the tools to put the taper in. Thats why i was thinking of a one size all around frame.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

What about the comb. Will 1 inch or 11/8" hold the comb?


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Self spacing frames are really not optional, they must be at the correct spacing or you going to play merry he.. getting frames in and out of the boxes.

Stick with the standard design -- 1 1/16" top bars slotted at the ends to carry end bars 1 3/8" wide. You don't absolutely need to cut the taper to make Hoffman end bars, but if you have bees that like to propolize things, they can become almost impossible to get apart. They will also not fit properly in many radial extractors.

If you don't have a jointer, table saw, and accurate band saw making frames is going to be very annoying, to say nothing of time consuming. I'm making 300 this year along with the necessary boxes, and it's taking me all winter since I don't work on them every day. If you have limited tools, stick with making boxes and bases and covers and buy the frames, they are pretty cheap all things considered.

Peter


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

Its not a problem holding the comb. the center distance to the next comb has to be correct or else the comb will be a mess. the end bars are made from 3/4 inch lumber and when finished they are cut in half to give ya 2.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Billboard said:


> What about the comb. Will 1 inch or 11/8" hold the comb?


Sure it will hold the comb. That's really not the issue here. You will have to use a frame spacer if your end bars don't do it for you. That sounds like a major pain to me.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

There are different ways to make that bee space, router, table saw, band saw, even jointer. I have done all except jointer. The more you make, the more ideas you will come up with and faster you will get. Look up Ryan beke, free beehive plans on Google. I can't remember the exact site, maybe some one else knows


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## Treehopper (Dec 9, 2012)

Are you working with a table saw?


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

I have the following. Miter saw, i have a router, used it minimal. Circular saw. My dad has all the good tools. Id post a picture of what i made so far but i cant post due to pixal size.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

There is a good video on frame making floating around facebook right now. Can't figure out a way to share it here so if you have FB I posted it on my page.
Dan Goemmel


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Ok the I pad post pictures here's my idea so far.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Not a problem.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It is not a strong frame design. The only place for glue is end grain. All the pull apart, twist strength will be carried by the fastener. They need quite a bit of strength when they get propolized together. All the notches, grooves etc. on the patent frames are there for a purpose.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

It feels a whole hell of a lot stronger than the ones I bought. I was just looking at frame spacers. That would give me the spacing. The frames glued and stapled, if that's not good enought I'll skip the staple and put a screw in the ends and that will definitely out due the store frames.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Barry said:


> Not a problem.


 is that saying it looks good or I got the picture posted?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I guess ya get what ya pay for. lol


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Your OP: "Or will making it all one size be ok?" Not a problem making them the way you show, knowing that you are fine with the other issues it causes. The modern manufactured frame didn't end up the way it is just to make making them difficult!  I'd say they are the most engineered piece of bee equipment, for a good reason.


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## beegeorge (Apr 19, 2012)

guys ,, let billboard experiment,, he will soon find out why frames are made like they are,, after all he is not the FIRST person to do this,,


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

ya but he may need a 4 ft hive tool. lol


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## beegeorge (Apr 19, 2012)

and then only be able to pop the top bar off the rest of the frame..

I learned a long time ago,, when a person has an opinion,, and will not listen to reason,, just get out of the way,, and watch


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

Barry said:


> Your OP: "Or will making it all one size be ok?" Not a problem making them the way you show, knowing that you are fine with the other issues it causes. The modern manufactured frame didn't end up the way it is just to make making them difficult!  I'd say they are the most engineered piece of bee equipment, for a good reason.


 I have the skill set <though not all the tooling> to make these in house - I'm a master cabinet maker in a previous profession . I considered it for about 3/10 of a second , then looked up frames online . For the cost they're a way better deal to buy over making them . Mass production with computerized equipment is the cheapest way to get 'em . Everything else I'll make as far as wood-ware - all ya really need is a half-decent table saw and a flat place to work .


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Hey Bill, like you, I also made a bunch of frames. I tried to follow the plans on www.beesource.com main page. mine were not as neat as what you have constructed, & were strong enough, I guess, but still down right awful.
I found the table saw & dado blade to be the most useful tool, & probably more dangerous than my chainsaw.
the time I had invested in my home made frames was about $10 per frame.

I now buy the economy grade frame in case lots from Dadant, they deliver to the various bee symposiums for free.

be careful, & good luck.


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## bdouglas (Dec 18, 2014)

At less than $1.00 each I cant imagine that you could make them cheaper than buying unless wood and time is free and you just love woodworking. I assume you're not making several thousand with automated equipment.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Here's how I make mine: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290728-Home-made-frames

They are just made by cutting 3/4" pine (19mm) into 7/16" (11mm) thick strips.

Cut the pine boards to the lengths for top, bottom and two sides. Then just set the thickness of the frames on the saw bench and cut the strips.

Have a jig to position them and nail them up quickly.

I use 3/8" (8mm) map pins on the top bar for spacing the frames.

No longer using ice cream sticks. Prefer the results of a strip of foundation or vertically cut half sheets, like Laurie does it.

I do get some comb on the sides of the wood in supers. But use a hive mat to stop the comb being built on top of the frames.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Until you have pried apart a well propolized hive you may not understand just how strong that stuff is. 

Your design will work fine to hold comb, but the first time you get one well stuck you are very very likely to pull the top bar right off. I always run a nail through the end bar into the top bar, and I've seen even frames nailed that way AND glued with Titebond III rip apart. Bee glue is powerful stuff!

Try them if you like, the bees won't mind. I do recommend you drill the end bars down the center and wire foundation in place if you use it -- you may also want to cut a wedge in the top bar to nail hooked wired foundation in place. Warped foundation leads to a major mess.

You can make then self-spacing by adding a couple small strips to the sides of the top bar. Taper one side with a hand plane to reduce the contact area, the less propolis the bees put on there, the less trouble they are to remove.

Have fun with it -- the worst that will happen is they won't work better than purchased frames.

I've posted my procedure before, do a search if you want to read it. Requires more equipment than you have, but if you have access to a table saw and a band saw, not a huge project unless you make thousands.

Peter


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

psfred said:


> Until you have pried apart a well propolized hive you may not understand just how strong that stuff is.
> 
> Your design will work fine to hold comb, but the first time you get one well stuck you are very very likely to pull the top bar right off. I always run a nail through the end bar into the top bar, and I've seen even frames nailed that way AND glued with Titebond III rip apart. Bee glue is powerful stuff!



Best heed the above information cause its spot on. 

Your design will pull apart once the bees get to them. 

Trying to reinvent the frame is a waste of time. Your design is fraught with a gargantuan pile of longevity and use challenges. 

You can built what you want.... When you need to borrow a lighter to dispose of all the delaminated broken pieces via fire please let me know.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Being using my design for a few years and haven't had any problems at all.


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## mrflegel (Mar 23, 2014)

And we can all say A-men. Unless you are doing it for a special size box. Then it could be to your advantage to roll your own.
May the honey flow.
Mike


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## Vince (Jun 22, 2014)

I made 30 of them from scrap wood I got at a job site. I used a table saw and router mounted on a cheap table I got from Harbor Freight. I did it to see if I could. It was one of the easier woodworking projects I did. If you count my time they cost me about 5 times what I could have bought them for. I prefer to buy them since my time is my most precious resource.

Vince


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

beeware10 said:


> ya but he may need a 4 ft hive tool. lol


:lpf:


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Vince said:


> I prefer to buy them since my time is my most precious resource.
> 
> Vince


Amen. G


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

YOU have heard from the bests and knowing people--Now do it your way--Wood working for 50 years, I buy buy them>


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Billboard said:


> Is there a certain reason why the sides taper like they do. Or will making it all one size be ok?


You don't have to make frames that look like the ones you bought. Wouldn't it be simpler to just make everything square? Or rectangular actually.

There are all sorts of reasons why frames are shaped the way they are. One reason is that since frames were first used people have tweeked the design so they will function better for beekeepers.

The reason the Hoffman Frame is shaped the way it is is so the end bars will selfspace and not get as strongly glued to each other as two flat sided frames will and so bees can navigate around the ends of the frames and also up between the frames.

That's one thing I like about using what has evolved to what is now available. Someone else already did the work. Someone already put in the time to figure out a better way. I like to ask why somethings are the way they are or "wouldn't it be better if ", but some things I just enjoy for the way they work.

Why don't you buy one frame from all of the different suppliers, or better yet 10, and do a Consumer's Report type test and testimonial on which ones work better than others? That would be interesting.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

I've seen some home made frames on you tube, made by european beeks. They make them flat like Matts but they attatch a bead to one side with a nail or screw. All the frames have to go in the same way every time, so the beads are always on the same side, or you would end up with 3/4 bee space if you put them in bead to bead (using 3/8 inch beads) I've seen beads like that in craft shops for macramay projects in various sizes....
Another option would be to just glue a spacing block on the side of a flat frame to get the space, rather than machining a piece of wood to the customary shape...
You could make your own, but it would be time consuming, unless you could gain enough time on each frame from not having to go from machine to machine.
Good Luck

==McBee7==


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## Fergus (Jan 27, 2015)

I made a jig out of a 1x4 that I clamp to wookbench. It's nothing more than a piece of wood with a curve in it for a router to follow. Maybe talk your dad into whipping one up and after your router will be all need


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_Westernbeekeeper _posted a nice photo essay on making frames with just a tablesaw and router, here:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?277747-How-To-Make-Your-Own-Frames-Photo-Tutorial


Tablesaws can often be found at an affordable price on your local Craigslist.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think the main concern with the design shown is not the absence of the spacing shoulders but rather the lack of any notching and grooving. With any of the standard designs the parts are self aligning and the pieces go together like a jig saw puzzle; much more aligning support and gluing area. Functionally a double mortice and tenon joint. With straight butted joints I think a person would have to be painfully carefull not to pull them apart when working the hives. 

I can understand wanting to simplify construction as it is a lot of fiddling around to build jigs to precisely make the many different cuts for conventional design. I made a set of ~ 60 custom width frames. It was fun but I was darn poorly paid for my time.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Nice looking work Frank. :thumbsup: G


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

rookie2531 said:


> There are different ways to make that bee space, router, table saw, band saw, even jointer. I have done all except jointer. The more you make, the more ideas you will come up with and faster you will get. Look up Ryan beke, free beehive plans on Google. I can't remember the exact site, maybe some one else knows


I have made over 500 of Ryan's frames and they work great. They are self spacing, easy to build and strong.
Colino


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## Treehopper (Dec 9, 2012)

Rather than reinventing the wheel, focus on producing a piece as close to accepted standards. If you lack the tools to achieve that goal, focus on acquiring those tools. It will pay in the long run.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Colino said:


> I have made over 500 of Ryan's frames


I cringe when I watch this video.

Please, when you make a cut on a radial arm saw, hold the piece between the blade and the stop, not the piece he held onto. Don't pull the wood across the table saw, push it with a push stick.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Barry said:


> I cringe when I watch this video.
> 
> Please, when you make a cut on a radial arm saw, hold the piece between the blade and the stop, not the piece he held onto. Don't pull the wood across the table saw, push it with a push stick.


+1 and why would you use a router to make bar ends that slow when you could run a dozen through in the same time with a dado blade

I did mine using Westernbeekeepers design posted at the top and work really well.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I mentioned Ryan because he came up with some ideas to make frames a little different and faster than the dadant style drawing offered on this sites build your own.

here is the site where you can download the pdf.'s NOw from his ideas, you can use different tools and come up with some faster ways like I did. Good luck.

http://hiveschoice.com/hives_choice_website_saved_012.htm


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Barry said:


> I cringe when I watch this video.
> 
> Please, when you make a cut on a radial arm saw, hold the piece between the blade and the stop, not the piece he held onto. Don't pull the wood across the table saw, push it with a push stick.


Just because Ryan has some dangerous habits does not make the basic idea a good one. I presented the video for the design concepts it does not mean you have to use tools the way Ryan does to make it work.
Colino


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## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

Barry said:


> I cringe when I watch this video.
> 
> Please, when you make a cut on a radial arm saw, hold the piece between the blade and the stop, not the piece he held onto. Don't pull the wood across the table saw, push it with a push stick.


Agree. It only takes a fraction of a second to have a bad day. I cannot recommend this bush block system enough on the table saw. 

http://www.microjig.com/products/grr-ripper/

There are many cuts that can be made safely with it that are dangerous with other push blocks. I bought mine after a kick-back accident. I was lucky. Watching the video brought back the memory of my accident. Buying this push block was some of the best money spent on my hobby.

Be careful!


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

PAHunter62 said:


> Agree. It only takes a fraction of a second to have a bad day. I cannot recommend this bush block system enough on the table saw.
> 
> http://www.microjig.com/products/grr-ripper/
> 
> ...


I need to find me one of those. I usually have my dad help me with woodwork stuff because he is a contractor and has much better table saw skills. With one of those i'd be a lot more confident in what i'm doing. Especially with thinner pieces like frames and end bars


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I make mine and they look like this: https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...q4a7428fsp5w14wsYsMhirZHKcIUpPHKZEs1cwyfvhbVA

You don't have to spend any money to have a very effective pusher.

http://www.woodworkersworkshop.com/graphics16/woodworkingtips-push-block.jpg
http://stretch.zeekzack.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/NarrowStockPush.jpg


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

I have had a question about frames for a while and why not here. 

Could you make the shoulder of the side bar slightly shorter, so the bees would have less area to GLUE TOGETHER? Because my little ladies appear to have figured out how to break down the molecular bond of TiteBond III and add it into there propolis, or at least that is my current theory. Starting in the fall, I seem to need to scrap off the propolis on the shoulder everytime I do a complete inspection or I end up lifting up 4 to 7 frames at once.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Barry said:


> I make mine and they look like this: https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...q4a7428fsp5w14wsYsMhirZHKcIUpPHKZEs1cwyfvhbVA
> 
> You don't have to spend any money to have a very effective pusher.
> 
> ...


I like that 3rd one.. When we made my frames last winter the part that scared us the most was slicing end bars 1/4" thick and cutting top bars in half from 2x stock. definitely interesting. i'd like to make another set this year before spring rolls around and feel bad to drag him away from his real work for help


Marsh.. my bees love their propolis too. I shove my hive tool down between the shoulders before trying to pry anything to slice that open. It does come in handy though... I've taken bits of propolis and filled in holes.. glued the entrance reducer in where i want it.. good stuff when you need it


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I don't see why not. I have also thought about making them taper to a point on one side, so the contact would be smaller.


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