# Mann Lake Wedge Top Bar Frames for Foundation-less?



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have used Mann Lake frames, but instead of using the wedge, I took it off and stapled in a thin strip of wood or Popsicle sticks. I also glued some Popsicle sticks in the groove. I didn't bother with the wax as I figure bees know how to figure it out just fine and they seemed to.


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Just turning the wedge works fine. feed them into the brood nest between two good frames and you will be amazed how well they are drawn out. Repeat til they are all drawn.


----------



## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

I turn the wedge sideways also.I have used wax in the past now i leave them bare.Brushy Mountain has a warehouse in Pa they have nice frames and possibly save on shipping.


----------



## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

I agree turning the wedge does work fine. I also like Mann Lakes free shipping and since I run about 50/50 plastic foundation/foundationless I just use the grooved frames which keeps me from having to purchase both types. I cut strips of wood from my scraps and glue them in the groove. Works great.

Mike


----------



## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Vance G said:


> Just turning the wedge works fine. feed them into the brood nest between two good frames and you will be amazed how well they are drawn out. Repeat til they are all drawn.


 ditto



<Did you paint the wedge with melted wax, or leave as bare wood?>


No need to paint the top bar with wax and yes I have done 100s like this. Just my $0.02



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


----------



## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

With Mann Lake, shipping is free on orders over $100. Buying 100 frames gets me to $79. There are always a couple small items on the wish list to push an order over $100.

I'll probably go with the wedge top bar frames over the grooved ones this year to save some time. As stated in the original post, I made starter strip runners with the table saw last year and painted them with wax for acceptance. I've read a few places that there will be no issue with bees taking to the bare wood and skipping the waxing will save some time and the fuss/mess/danger of dealing with hot wax.

If I do use any foundation, it will be wax over plastic I think, so again that points me to the wedge top bar frames.

I started two hives from packages last spring, I think I only used two sheets of foundation (one in each hive) to give them a guide. I ended up with around ten 8 frame medium boxes drawn out before winter between the two hives.

I'm just looking to reduce the time spent preparing new frames for this year.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Anyone use the Mann Lake wedged top bar with the wedge turned for foundation-less frames?

Yes.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#combguide

> Did you paint the wedge with melted wax, or leave as bare wood?

I've done both. Now I always leave it bare and recommend that. Sometimes the melted wax fell off. It was never attached as well as the bees attach their comb and added nothing to getting them to follow the guide.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#howdoyougofoundationless


----------



## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

I've done what you describe, but like the groove top better. I found that the wedge turned down leaves the top bar assymetrical and in my hives this led to some weird comb at the top. The bees were also likely to start drawing from the corner of the top bar itself vs the wedge. Kelley's used to sell a foundationless frame that had a bevelled top bar that would help what I saw. Looks like they changed the design though.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Looks like they changed the design though. 

Really? Last I looked in the online catalog it looked like a beveled top bar. I like the bevel the best.


----------



## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

I can't tell. The picture is so small. It looks like there is a text bubble in the picture that reads, "Bevelled top bar", but the picture sure doesn't look like it's bevelled, it looks like a hard corner.

https://kelleybees.com/Products/Detail/?id=3336333533363338&grouped=1


----------



## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

I just break out the wedge (if I think of it) and put the assembled frame into the colony. They draw them out fine.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would trust the description.


----------



## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

I got some of the Kelly frames last summer. The bevel was machined off center by almost 1/8" and came to a very blunt point...really a 1/4" flat facet. It could be that I just got a batch where Quality conteroll slipped.

They worked OK for me, but not nearly as well as a bunch that I had made myself which came to a true point and were centered. On the WK frames the comb would wander from one side of the flat to the other along the frames length. I doubt I will make any more (it's pretty labor intensive even with full shop and experience). If that is the way all the WK frames are I will be trying the popcicle sticks next time.

But this observation is limited to maybe 15- or 20 frames of the WK and 50 of mine...a pretty small sample and could be related to the time they went in. Mine went in in spring and early summer then the WK frames from mid summer on.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

1/4" is a bit wide, but when I make my own they are mostly 1/8" flat "point" and they work fine.


----------



## Wanda brimmer (Aug 3, 2015)

I'm trying to go foundationless this year. I've one hive that is entering its first winter and just purchased one new hive box and two working hives. The working hives are wired foundation. I purchased my new hive and frames, unassembled from Mann Lake. My eight month old hive is all plastic foundation with wood frames. I understand that I should alternate a foundationless frame between two capped frames. I don't understand the "points" that several of you are talking about. Also, can I just lay three popsickle sticks across the grove, applying glue and staples to make the frame and use that frame between two plastic foundations? Do those plastic foundations have to be capped? Will it take me ten years to become all foundation less? Thanks, wanda


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Wanda brimmer said:


> I'm trying to go foundationless this year. I've one hive that is entering its first winter and just purchased one new hive box and two working hives. The working hives are wired foundation. I purchased my new hive and frames, unassembled from Mann Lake. My eight month old hive is all plastic foundation with wood frames. I understand that I should alternate a foundationless frame between two capped frames. I don't understand the "points" that several of you are talking about. Also, can I just lay three popsickle sticks across the grove, applying glue and staples to make the frame and use that frame between two plastic foundations? Do those plastic foundations have to be capped? Will it take me ten years to become all foundation less? Thanks, wanda



If you want to go all foundationless, split your hive into nucs. and feed them frames. Small colonies want to grow. so they will build worker comb. You feed foundationless in an overwintered hive and you are going to have A LOT of drone comb!


----------



## Wanda brimmer (Aug 3, 2015)

Thank you for your reply. Of course I would never attempt a winter split. I live in Northern Nevada with severe winters. My questions were about making the frames and placing the frames. Any advice on those questions?


----------



## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

Wedge top turned sideways. Frames cross wired with no additional wax. Works great.


----------

