# chicken waterers for bees? nosoma?



## avalonweddingsbcs (May 2, 2010)

everytime ive used frame feeders i get a lot of robbing... 

so i've been putting 2 chickenwaterers of 1 gallon each in front of the hive using 1:1...

i have 4 hives, and yesterday i checked them... 90 % of the frames were really light... they dont have any stores of honey... not much anyways..

i gave them 6 gallons last week... they usually go through 2 gallons in a couple of hours..

i was going to get a 5 gallon chicken waterer, but someone told me on the chat forum last night that using waterers can spread nososma..

if i use frame feeders, they rob... so i dont know which to use... i plan on doing the antibiotics mixed with powdered sugar, but wanted to see what ya'll think..


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

I too would like to know the downsides of open feeding. I currently use a 5 gal. waterer to keep them out of the pool and was planning on open feeding with it, if neccessary. You have to use rocks in the open rim to keep them from drowning and you will feed every bee within 3 miles, anything else?


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## dave28210 (Nov 10, 2008)

During these hot times I'll do the waterers for plain water. Have seen robbing tendencies if I do syrup in them. That is....unless I put them way off from the hives (which isn't a bad idea--the girls will find it). But with the plain water I find I do more for my wife's cats and the skeeters than I will ever do for the bees. If you can find a good place out of the yard it may work better than right in your apiary. Personally I don't have enough property to truly find an "away place" so I've been doing hive top feeders. Good luck.


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## honeybeekeeper (Mar 3, 2010)

Well i myself like using top jar feeders and use an empty super then a top!

I build top hive feeders like the one in the photo, i make them for quart jars or 1/2 gallon jars! I also drill two 1" holes in the center for ventilation, works perfect!


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## avalonweddingsbcs (May 2, 2010)

but i dont see any difference between frame feeding, top feeding, etc... they're all robbable... (i invented a new word) able to be robbed..

if i did the top thing, they would rob it too, wouldnt they?

i think a communal thing outside is do-able, i just wanted to know if it would spread a disease more..


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't see why robbing spreads nosema. Can you explain how that happens? And if you have robbing problems w/ plastic inside feeders, it seems to me like you would have even more w/ communal feeding.

Also, one of the advantages of using the innercover w/ holes is that you can surround the jars w/ a nice tight super to keep robbers out. But, usually I have seen these used when temps are down to where bees don't fly much anyway.

It sure seems to me like beekeepers are feeding alot more these days compared to years gone by, little guys and biggin's alike. What is going on?


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

you might want to look at tighning up your hives if you want to stop robbing. feeding inside the hive should avoid robbing.also consider feeding in the early morning before the bees are flying much and be careful not to spill your syrup.
just my 2 cents


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## garlicbee (Jun 3, 2010)

we put our chicken waterer inside an extra deep on top of the hive and covered it with the outer and inner cover seemed to work fine


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

I have used the CW to open feed. I use wine corks to keep the bees from drowning. They're easier to wash than rocks Last time I did it, I had some humming bird syrup to get rid of.(no dye) When it was all gone I ventured up the hill to the hives and there was some robbing. (I reduced the entrances and it quickly subsided) I have two hives that are splits that I wanted to get built up and ready for the fall and then winter. I read on this thread about bag feeders. Tried it, It works great!! Google bad feeders or do a search. you might find it usefull.

Rick SoMd


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rick 1456 said:


> Google bad feeders or do a search. you might find it usefull.
> 
> Rick SoMd


 Who would want a "bad" feeder? Or is that your SoMD accent?


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

My BAG :doh:

Rick


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## dronebeeman613 (Feb 27, 2010)

rick 1456 said:


> i have used the cw to open feed. I use wine corks to keep the bees from drowning. They're easier to wash than rocks:d last time i did it, i had some humming bird syrup to get rid of.(no dye) when it was all gone i ventured up the hill to the hives and there was some robbing. (i reduced the entrances and it quickly subsided) i have two hives that are splits that i wanted to get built up and ready for the fall and then winter. I read on this thread about bag feeders. Tried it, it works great!! Google bad feeders or do a search. You might find it usefull.
> 
> rick somd


who would want a bad feeder on a hive of bee's ??????????? A spelling problem huh ?????


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BAD is a Trade Mark. It denotes a particular feeder. But I don't know if it is the unit or the person using the unit. Sorry Thread Author.


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## dronebeeman613 (Feb 27, 2010)

Rick 1456 said:


> I have used the CW to open feed. I use wine corks to keep the bees from drowning. They're easier to wash than rocks Last time I did it, I had some humming bird syrup to get rid of.(no dye) When it was all gone I ventured up the hill to the hives and there was some robbing. (I reduced the entrances and it quickly subsided) I have two hives that are splits that I wanted to get built up and ready for the fall and then winter. I read on this thread about bag feeders. Tried it, It works great!! Google bad feeders or do a search. you might find it usefull.
> 
> Rick SoMd


who would want to put a bad feeder in or on a beehive ???? a spelling problem here ???????


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## dronebeeman613 (Feb 27, 2010)

sorry Sqkcrk i was replying to Rick1456 and click to you instead of his sorry , he nailed me one time on spelling so i was nailing him back now ! have a great day


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Here's well stated data on nosema:
http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=56
Transmission of spores

Both nosemas require bees to ingest spores in order to become infected. The beekeeper should make efforts to minimize any routes of transmission. This was easier with apis, since its spores were only found in bee feces. Unfortunately, Higes, et al (2007) found that ceranae spores can be transmitted in pollen. Chen (2008 Conf) detailed how ceranae infection spreads to the bees' hypopharyngeal and salivary glands (specifically, nosema DNA was found there, Dr. Chen did not look for spores or the vegetative state (pers comm)). If indeed the vegetative state can make its way into the saliva or jelly, it could explain how foragers contaminate their pollen pellets with the spores, and would suggest that brood food, and perhaps any surface licked by bees may be contaminated (again, this is pure conjecture).

Overwinter bees with plenty of fully-cured quality honey or heavy sugar syrup. Honeys that promote dysentery increase the transmission of spores.
Minimize the crushing of bees during colony manipulations. Every bee that you crush is the equivalent of having a bee poop in the hive! Carelessly tossing in a pollen patty and crushing a hundred bees top and bottom smears any nosema spores that were in the crushed bees all over the patty that the colony will soon be eating. The resultant nosema infection may negate the benefit of feeding (Kleinschmidt 1988a).
Winter colonies in sunny locations to encourage cleansing flights.
*Avoid allowing bees to drown or defecate in tanks of sugar syrup, insert feeders, or during barrel feeding, as this can spread spores.*Avoid having stagnant water sources close to the beeyard. These can become contaminated by dead bees or cleansing flights.
Minimize the amount of time that bees are confined during hauling. Not only are they stressed, but they may be forced to defecate within the hive.
Nick Calderone (2008 Conf) found nosema in some package bees. Test packages and nucs before you spread them into your operation!
Extreme: move the colony during daylight and kill the returning “drift” of infected field force so they can't transmit spores to the emerging brood.
Finally, sterilize contaminated combs, or rotate them out.

Regards,
Ernie


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

dronebeeman613 said:


> sorry Sqkcrk i was replying to Rick1456 and click to you instead of his sorry , he nailed me one time on spelling so i was nailing him back now ! have a great day


No problemo, I was making a joke. I cant spill werth aye darn myselph.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Ernie. That explains the contamination route.

Since thwe Field Test for Nosema is so simple and easy to learn, I wonder why it isn't done by NYS Apiary Inspectors. I know that Inspectors are taking samples for Lab testing and rates of infection, ie spores per bee, but isn't a quick diagnosis of whether they are present or not, a timely diagnosis of prescence, as important as knowing which kind is present?

Or, maybe, as is true w/ some of my friends, commercial operators are just going to treat for Nosema anyway, whether they test or not. We know that Nosema is present in just about every colony in NY, more or less.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> It sure seems to me like beekeepers are feeding alot more these days compared to years gone by, little guys and biggin's alike. What is going on?


I was wondering the same thing the other day...seems like many are feeding syrup and/or sugar almost year round. Is that normal? :s


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Or, maybe, as is true w/ some of my friends, commercial operators are just going to treat for Nosema anyway, whether they test or not. We know that Nosema is present in just about every colony in NY, more or less.


I know that a local elderly BK who I took some classes from told me that if I didn't *routinely* treat my bees twice a year with both FumagillinB and Terramycin that _my bees would surely die_.  I told him thanks, but I was willing to take my chances. i thought it was funny that he didn't mention varroa treatment much- he basically said simply to split the hives every year to keep mites under control, which makes sense to me (as a concept at least, if not exactly practical). 
Needless to say, I got my bees this Spring from someone who does not use those medications. They are doing great so far, time will tell.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Omie said:


> I was wondering the same thing the other day...seems like many are feeding syrup and/or sugar almost year round. Is that normal? :s


Well, I sure don't think so. Not where I live most of the year. But I don't know what goes on normally in SC or GA during the summer dearth period.

I was always taught that you stop feeding in the spring once nectar starts coming in and start feeding in the fall when there is nothing to forage on, but only if you have taken too much from the bees.

Now it seems like people don't follow those "rules" of thumb and feed all of the time. I just can't believe that the bees are taking syrup when a nectar flow is on, are they? And wouldn't that adulterate the honey, some what? If they did take it, which it seems to me they wouldn't.

What's normal anymore? And I have to wonder, respectfully, if newbees aren't treating their bees like pets that they think that they have to "take care of" all of the time. You don't. But, unless you have a good mentor to steer you, I can see how one might think otherwise.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> What's normal anymore? And I have to wonder, respectfully, if newbees aren't treating their bees like pets that they think that they have to "take care of" all of the time. You don't. But, unless you have a good mentor to steer you, I can see how one might think otherwise.


Yes, I know what you mean. I so often read the advice "Feed, feed, feed." on internet bee forums that it's sort of burned its way unwanted into my mind like some tv commercial you want to forget.  
I do have a couple of good mentors, plus I've basically _read my brains out_ over the past year from all different points of view, so I feel I can at least make a few basic decisions regarding taking care of my own bees now.

I see that people's bees sometimes die whether they treat them or feed them or not. There are many reasons for a hive dying, and we can't always know exactly why. My first hive died last winter, and I suspect condensation. My new personal plan now is to have lots of ventilation, let the brood nests get as big as possible this first year, not treat, and not feed unless really needed. Will my bees die this winter?- maybe, maybe not. If they come through the winter well, then I'll have some great bees to work with next year and will continue with what works for me.

When I got my two nucs from Fatbeeman Don this Spring, I only fed them syrup for 2 weeks. I saw they were then bringing in tons of pollen so i stopped feeding then. They've done well so far. If they look to have plenty of honey stored this autumn in their two deeps each, then I'm not going to feed them this fall either. 
Of course i can't speak for other areas that might be experiencing very real dearths, and last year's disastrous bee weather certainly was a good case for everyone feeding more than usual.


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## Jerry Kinder (Jan 16, 2009)

One of my mentors told me that if you feed bees, you get lazy bees. He said that in the old days they seldom fed bees and they did all right. Maybe not the instant buildup that is required by the agribusiness today, but they had healthy bees that brought in honey. Being a backyard keeper, I can afford to give his ideas a try and so far this year it seems to be working fine.


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## avalonweddingsbcs (May 2, 2010)

im in texas.. there are not really any flowers blooming and the frames are not full of anything... low brood, low food, no pollen... lots of bees thouhg..

tHe midnight chat guys (highly recommned attending our late night chats..)
said that mine are slowing down cause of the heat of the summer adn i should feed.... 

i dont see a lot of brood, so i thought feeding would increase productivity on the queens part... all 4 of my hives are like this...

I want to graft about 20 queens late in sept to make some oct splits (texas is fine for that type of thing), but i need to see improvement if im gonna make splits..

d


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## bigbore (Feb 25, 2008)

I can't attest for everyone else, but for about 75 miles in any direction from me any green vegitation stands out like a sore thumb. If I hadn't seen green grass, I would think it was supposed to be brown all the time.:ws


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Jerry Kinder said:


> Being a backyard keeper,


"keeper" of what? Chickens? This is like calling one who herds sheep a herd instead of a shepard. Just me being picky. Don't let it bother you.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

Can you use communal feeders for a new hive? 

I "Hope" to not have to feed a whole lot and thus don't want to spend to much money on feeders. A communal feeder seems like the way to go. Just wondering how it will work with a brand new hive versus a top feeder or some other method. Seems like a communal feeder would draw them out of the hive more and make them start getting natural nectar.

~Matt


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Matt, if they go to the feeder, rather than the flower, it, in all likelyhood means that there isn't anything in the flower for them to forage on.

Bees don't need drawing out. They fly to forage naturally. It's a million years or more of doing what works. Think like a beekeeper. Not a bee trainer. They don't need to be trained to do what they do naturally.

i wouldn't communal feed a lone colony. Or do you have more than one. Eitherway,w/ communal feeding, the strong ones get the feed and the weak ones get robbed. And you don't want to feed your neighbors bees, do you?


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Matt, if they go to the feeder, rather than the flower, it, in all likelyhood means that there isn't anything in the flower for them to forage on.


Well, I'm guessing that will be the case when I first put the bees in the hive.



sqkcrk said:


> Bees don't need drawing out. They fly to forage naturally. It's a million years or more of doing what works. Think like a beekeeper. Not a bee trainer. They don't need to be trained to do what they do naturally.


But would they still be "Drawn out" or as much if they have all they need right outside their door? My thinking was that if you feed them near the hive they might not go any further. Being completely new I have very little concept of when to stop feeding them and when to start. 



sqkcrk said:


> i wouldn't communal feed a lone colony. Or do you have more than one. Eitherway,w/ communal feeding, the strong ones get the feed and the weak ones get robbed. And you don't want to feed your neighbors bees, do you?


I'd planned on starting with four colonies and I don't mind sending a few pounds of sugar to my neighbors if it means less work for me in the end 

I'm not so worried about communal feeding as much as how a completely new hive might react to it versus other methods.

I've looked at several different methods and they all seem to have as many, if not more, cons than communal feeding.

~Matt


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

MJuric said:


> But would they still be "Drawn out" or as much if they have all they need right outside their door? My thinking was that if you feed them near the hive they might not go any further. Being completely new I have very little concept of when to stop feeding them and when to start.
> 
> I've looked at several different methods and they all seem to have as many, if not more, cons than communal feeding.
> 
> ~Matt


Bees will work the source that is the most abundant to them. To them, not to you, not from your perspective. so, if you put out a communal feeder or use top feeders which sit right on top of the frames, can't get much closer than that, right?, when the floral source is more appealing to the bees they will leave the communal feeder or the top feeder and go to the flowers no matter how far away they appear to us.

Bees fly to forage. It's in their nature. Sure, it doesn't hurt to supply them w/ syrup right outside their door, but don't be angry if they don't take it.

The down side to communal feeding, and I have done this w/ barrels and yards of 60 to 100, is that the strong colonies get the feed, bees drown and robbing of the weaker colonies can be stimulated. Then there is nosema, from what we read earlier in this Thread.

If you need to feed, I recommend Jars in a wiere excluder surrounded by a deep super and a good cover. A wire excluder so the jars are spaced above the frames making access easier. One gallon pickle jars work great. used and washed of course.


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