# HFCS-55 vs sugar



## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

They were just talking aobut this in the commercial section. Gene called Mann Lake and Cargill had a warehouse in Houston where he could pick it up local. If Mann Lake can't help. Try Chicago Sweeteners. They should have someone close. 

http://www.chisweet.com/


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233053


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

if I remember correctly cargil's high fructose home site is lancaster pa. there phone # is 800-734-8215

mike


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

I called the purchasing agent at the local Pepsi bottling plant and asked where they got their HFCS from. Called their supplier up and they package it in 5 gallon pails for beekeepers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The Pepsi Plant in Conway, SC said that they couldn't sell it to me. 

But they did give me a gallon of their "test" sample when I took a swarm away from their plant. I guess they accumulate a small amount of syrup when they test each batch that they get. I don't know what they are testing it for.

$90.00/ barrel is what I remember paying for it some years ago. At 660 lbs per barrel, what is that, .15/lb? .15/lb times 60 lbs/bucket equals $9.00/bucket. even w/ the price increase, $25.00/bucket is kinda steep, but they are trying to make a profit, aren't they?


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

You buy 5 gallons of HFCS for $25, plus shipping? I buy sugar at a local discount store that makes 5 gallons of sugar syrup for $17.60, plus the cost of my water. (the sugar figures out at 44 cents per pound, 8 pounds per gallon jar, then I add the water)

there are other threads that point out the nutritional advantages of cane sugar to the honeybees, compared to HFCS. Your call, everyone has their opinions.
Regards,
Steven


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

StevenG said:


> You buy 5 gallons of HFCS for $25, plus shipping? I buy sugar at a local discount store that makes 5 gallons of sugar syrup for $17.60, plus the cost of my water. (the sugar figures out at 44 cents per pound, 8 pounds per gallon jar, then I add the water)
> 
> there are other threads that point out the nutritional advantages of cane sugar to the honeybees, compared to HFCS. Your call, everyone has their opinions.
> Regards,
> Steven



A point, but HFCS 70 should be 70% solids, which means there is more energy/sugar value in it than 25lbs of sugar.......


And yes there are a lot of studies that show sucrose is better than fructose....

BUT as a commercail guy its less effort, you cna buy HFCS ready to use, it doesn't settle, doesn't spoil as badly, and requires no mixing...........

Its really a personal decision, based on where you can buy them..

I had several conversations with Cargill this spring, they will only sell thru Betterbee, which is a real pain. I have a cargill facility 3 blocks away, and would have to drive over 4 hours to get cargill products...

try ADM suppliers. much more coopertive.


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## joekurm (Sep 23, 2007)

Magnet-man,

you stated 


"I called the purchasing agent at the local Pepsi bottling plant and asked where they got their HFCS from. Called their supplier up and they package it in 5 gallon pails for beekeepers."

but, Who is their supplier? and how much is it?


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

gmcharlie said:


> .....I had several conversations with Cargill this spring, they will only sell thru Betterbee, which is a real pain. I have a cargill facility 3 blocks away, and would have to drive over 4 hours to get cargill products...


I buy mine from Cargill through Mann Lake, however I pick it up at the Cargill facility in Houston. You should be able to do it the same way and pick it up at the facility close to you.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

gmcharlie said:


> HFCS 70 should be 70% solids


You don't mean HFCS 50, do you? I haven't heard of HFCS 70. And are all of the solids in HFCS sugar solids, I don't think so.

So, form what I understand, the advantages of HFCS over sugar syrup is the inexpensiveness and availability of HFCS and that it doesn't spoil as quickly as sugar syrup. But I could be wrong.

Though I have never bought any through them, SweetnersPlus in Lakeland, NY. There is supposedly another supplier there too.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> ....So, form what I understand, the advantages of HFCS over sugar syrup is the inexpensiveness and availability of HFCS and that it doesn't spoil as quickly as sugar syrup. But I could be wrong......


Actually the price difference is not huge, but the convenience factor is way up there. The stuff I bought yesterday was $25.65 per cwt (hundred weight). If you feed 1:1 sugar @ .49/lb the price comes out really close to the same. However, I do believe that HFCS 55 probably compares more closely to a 2:1 sugar syrup, at that same .49/lb there is about a 30% cost savings with the HFCS. I don't know how much more to add to the sugar syrup for heating costs to boil the water when mixing a 2:1 sugar syrup, so there are some additional savings there as well. If you invert your sugar syrup, then there is even more costs associated with the acid source and the additional 20 minute boiling of the syrup whereas HFCS is already an invert syrup.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Whoops my bad, yes Man Lake is the correct wholesaler,,, unfortunatly the wouldn't let me do local pickup here.....



There are 3 levels of HFC on is 55% one is 70 % and there is also a special order I think 42%??

That is the percentage of solids, I have to agree with gene, its seems more like 2-1 syrup. which was my point. The value of the feed is probably higher than that of Pound for pound sugar.... I have never seen any data to corelate though..

Maybe calories per gallon??? not sure if that wouldbe a legitimate value for bees, and we are talking teh differences between surcrose and fructose.... everthing I have read says surcrose is better, but at what value I don't know...


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

gmcharlie said:


> ...There are 3 levels of HFC on is 55% one is 70 % and there is also a special order I think 42%??
> 
> That is the percentage of solids, .....


Actually that is the percentage of Fructose. HFCS 55 is 55% Fructose and 42% Glucose/Dextrose the remainder is small percentages of maltose and higher saccharides (this may vary slightly from one producer to another, but they all are very close). The most important thing about HFCS for use as bee feed is to be sure that the process used to invert it is via enzymes and NOT acid based. The residual acids and other solids in the acid based version is detrimental to the bees. Cargill's IsoClear 55 product meets these requirements. Here is a link to Cargill's specs on it:

http://www.cargill.com/food/wcm/groups/public/@cseg/@food/@all/documents/document/na3014968.pdf


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Also 36/43 and I have a tote of 70% that I bought a cpl years ago, not sure you can get that anymore though...

ADM also has a high content. I did find a calorie rateing for the 43% it was 838 per 100 grams....


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

After reading Cargill's specs on their HFCS 55 here is how it compares to sugar syrup:

1:1 Sugar syrup = 50% moisture, 50% Sugar solids
2:1 Sugar syrup = 33% moisture, 66% Sugar solids
HFCS 55 = 23% moisture, 77% Sugar solids

With this analysis, the HFCS 55 @$0.2565/lb = dry sugar @$0.33/lb, so on a carbohydrate content basis there is a savings of $0.16/lb over buying sugar @$0.49/lb, roughly a 1/3 cost savings. I guess that is reasonably significant.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

not related, but you chose carbohydrate comparision?? any reason why you picked that measure?? not argueing, just couldn't decide on a comparision myself and wondered why you picked that one??


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Cause it ain't protien?


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

gmcharlie said:


> not related, but you chose carbohydrate comparision?? any reason why you picked that measure?? not argueing, just couldn't decide on a comparision myself and wondered why you picked that one??


Since dry sugar (sucrose) is basically 100% carbohydrate, it seemed most logical to me to reduce the HFCS to the same level in order to compare their prices. This does not take into consideration the costs associated with hydrating and inverting the dry sugar, so its not exactly apples to apples, but it does bear out a significant cost advantage to the HFCS.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Thanks Gene, being an engineer the only thing I could come up with was energy units such as calories, but since I am not sure if calories actually apply to bees I was curious as to your logic....


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

gmcharlie said:


> Thanks Gene, being an engineer the only thing I could come up with was energy units such as calories, but since I am not sure if calories actually apply to bees I was curious as to your logic....


Since all simple sugars have about the same caloric content (around 4 calories per gm) it makes the calculations easy since you can pretty much equate dry weights. Its not 100%, but close enough for our purposes. My educational background is in both Chemistry and Engineering however, I was educated in Chemistry first and went back to school later for the Engineering. I guess I still tend to look at things more with a Chemist's lens though.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Ahh very valable... I am a MFG/ME engineer so not my area of expertise, just like numbers! thanks for the insight Gene.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

joekurm said:


> "I called the purchasing agent at the local Pepsi bottling plant and asked where they got their HFCS from. Called their supplier up and they package it in 5 gallon pails for beekeepers."
> 
> but, Who is their supplier? and how much is it?



Here in Tulsa the company is Base Inc. I don't know who it would be in your neck of the woods. *The soft drink bottler will not sell it to you.* The bottler is not setup to sell it and it is not what they sell. *You have to go to their supplier. *

Let me expand a little here. A lot of softdrink bottlers do not purchase directly from HFCS producers. Instead there is usually a distributor in the area that brings it in on rail tanker cars. They then distribute to all of the bottlers, large bakeries, and other users of HFCS. In Tulsa it is Base Inc. Now a really big consumer may get their HFCS directly from a producer. I know that Griffin Foods in Muskogee, OK get theirs on rail cars, but that is a huge plant.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Joekurm, you might try:

Royal Ingredients
2085 Center Square Rd Building C, Swedesboro
New Jersey, 08085
Phone: (856) 241-2004
Fax: (856) 241-2240


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## joekurm (Sep 23, 2007)

I will check Cargill in lancaster and the place in Swedesboro, Nj. I looked on Google and Cargil is right across the street from the bottle distributor that I go to. I will be going there next week so that will work out perfectly. I will update after I call them.

Thanks


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## beeman (May 27, 2009)

If I remember right Cargill will not sell directly to the beekeeper so you must go through Mann Lake first.


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## joekurm (Sep 23, 2007)

Well,

I checked with Mannlake and they told me that the Cargill plant in Lancaster does not have a pick up facility and I could not get it there. I called Roayl in Swedesboro NJ and the only sell it in drums by the truckload. I did find one place in Lancaster. Good Food in Honeybrook has it in 5 Gal pails for $34.51 ea. This is about $10 more than Kelly and Betterbee. 

If anyone knows, where on the Mannlake online catalog does it show HFCS? I looked and couldn't find it. Also has anyone else heard that Dadant is opening a PA branch? I ugess I will be calling them also.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

Mann Lake does not put the HFCS in their online catalog. The price varies from day to day and from one location to another, so you have to call and get a quote.


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