# Minimum amout of rosin for wax-dipping hives?



## elkridge

Are you using an old deep fryer or a massive kettle? Any advice on what to use for this method or where to get it?


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## fafrd

I had a custom metal box welded out of sheet steel. I'm really a newbie at this and was hoping some of those with more experience wax dipping hives could give me some answers to my questions on the need for Rosin in the wax mixture.


-fafrd


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## Swobee

I just got done building our hive body 'french fryer' but haven't tried it yet - this weekend is the launching. Like you, fafrd, I'm wondering proper ratios for economics and effectiveness to use. These conversations about hot dipping always seem to turn into talks about what metal to use, how big, what color, why is the sky blue, etc. But we don't ever seem to get much nuts and bolts data about effective batch recipes. So, is the Mann Lake 3:1 the best? Is resin really 100% necessary? (We never really got a firm answer to that one last time this was discussed. What other product recipes work effectively and economically?


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## Swobee

Nobody has alternative recipes for resin/wax ratio that are time tested? Hopefully, we get to test out our new box 'french fryer'. I'd rather wait to discuss construction details until I know it works. Let's just say- no open flames for safety and we need to be able to work this inside the s hopdue to weather, safety and other concerns. 11 ga. double welded steel, wrapped in insulation. Did you think with my background I would make an uninsulated dipping box? Duct wrap insulation to keep the heat in where it belongs, making it more comfortable to work around and for better energy management (reduce wasted heat). I think we can get the basic bugs worked out during its maiden voyage.

I am interested in what ratios of resin/wax work if anyone has suggestions in that avenue. 

Thanks!


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## Jeffzhear

fafrd said:


> I dipped my first hive bodies yesterday using the 'standard' 75% paraffin / 25% gum rosin recipe from Mann-Lake.
> 
> The gum rosin caued lots of gobs to stick on the surface and turned the mixture a deeper brown than I would have liked, so I would like to use as little as possible.


Just a couple thoughts. I am thinking the globs formed because you didn't have the mixture hot enough. Second, I use 2 parts wax, 1 part rosin, not 3 to 1 like you indicate.


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## fafrd

My temp was about 280 degrees F - what is the temperature you recommend to use? From my first dipping experience, it seems like the rosin dissolved more evenly following 2 hours at temperature. How long do people typically wait at temperature before dipping the first hive? I dipped immediately and maybe that was a mistake. At the same 25% / 75% ratio, I would wait a couple hours before dipping the first hive next time to see if that improves the outcome. I am still interested to try a lower ratio of rosin.

Is there a reason you use 33% rosin, not 25% rosin as recommended by Mann-Lake? 

Is there no data or experiments from anyone who has tied a lower concentration of rosin?

I see that some people have tried 100% wax and that the resut is 'too sticky' - has anyone tried a ratio of rosin that is less than the 25% ratio recommended by Mann-Lake?

-fafrd


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## Jeffzhear

When I first started dipping my woodenware, others advised that they used 2 parts wax, 1 part rosin. I tried it and it worked for me. I tend to follow the old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I also, just stir the tank until the rosin completely dissolves in the wax. The rosin did glob up the first time I tried it, because I didn't wait for the rosin to completely dissolve. I run my tank around 275+.


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## fafrd

Jeffzhear said:


> I stir the tank until the rosin completely dissolves in the wax. The rosin did glob up the first time I tried it, because I didn't wait for the rosin to completely dissolve. I run my tank around 275+.


Thanks for the info. What you have said helps convince me that, like you, I did not wait long enough for the rosin to completely dissolve on my first attempt. When adding a significant amount of new rosin to the mix, how long do you wait at temperature before dipping?

I am still interested to try using less rosin. In Australia, they apparently use 100% paraffin with no rosin. I find the 25% rosin mixture a bit too brittle and a bit too brown for my taste, and would like to know what the lower limit is too avoid the 'stickiness' that apparently results if there is no rosin at all.

I also would like a lighter color and more natural wood finish. My hives now come out the color of mahogany or brown leather and I would like them coming out closer to the natural pine lightness that they started with. What color are your dipped hives coming out? Are you painting after dipping or leaving natural wood finish?

If I do try dipping with less rosin, I will let you know the result. Among other things, rosin is more expensive and harder to find than paraffin or beeswax.

-fafrd


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## Swobee

So, when it comes to adding the resin & wax, I assume you add a little of both at the same time to make sure they blend together well?

Also, what kind of tongs or devices are some of you using to insert and remove the hive bodies? Thanks.


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## rainesridgefarm

I started at athe ratio mann lake stated also. I then kept adding wax and no more rosin. my double boiler does not get over 210 so the rosin sat on the bottom in globs. I dipped these boxes back when i first joined beesource. so for the past 7 or 8 years these boxes look great. how much rosin made it into them is very low from my take. I put them in for 15 min then flipped them over for another 15 min then pulled. they came up great looking.


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## fafrd

rainesridgefarm said:


> I started at athe ratio mann lake stated also. I then kept adding wax and no more rosin. how much rosin made it into them is very low from my take. they came up great looking.


rainesridgefarm,

any idea how much additional wax you added afrer the original mann-lake ratio? Did you double the amount of wax or was is much less than that?
Was the dipped body sticky at all or did it have the varnished / brittle finish that you get with the 25% rosin ratio of he mann-lake recipe? Also, what color did your dipped bodies come out? Where they more mahogany / brown leather colored or clear / wax-coated-wood colored?



rainesridgefarm said:


> my double boiler does not get over 210 so the rosin sat on the bottom in globs.


Any specific reason to use a double-boiler? The paper I read on wax-dipping in Australia was based on the use of direct heat, so that is what I use - propane burner from a camp stove dirctly on the bottom steel suface of the vat. You need to watch the temperature to keep it from getting overheated, but other than that it seems to work very well - the double boiler seems like a lot more trouble, espcially if you can't get much over the temperature of boiling water...

-fafrd


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## HVH

Since I have not mixed paraffin and rosin my two cents are more from a science standpoint. It seems to me that the rosin is added to change the melting point of paraffin. Since paraffin wax comes in different melting point ranges, it seems like purchasing the higher melting point waxes (closer to 160F) would allow one to use less rosin.


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## rainesridgefarm

I did not have brittle boxes at all. They looked more like nice light furniture stain then anything. I put them in and let them heat up and you could see some bubbles coming off the wood. I started with 50lbs of rosin and 200lbs of wax. I am sure I added over 300 more lbs of wax till i was finished. you could tell the rosin was at the bottom because as you lifted the boxes out it would roll of the bottom of the box coming out of the wax.

I did it inside my honey house and did not want to risk burning it down. I also had a old maxant bottleing tank that I wanted to use. higher temps would let you do them faster.


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## fafrd

rainesridgefarm said:


> I started with 50lbs of rosin and 200lbs of wax. I am sure I added over 300 more lbs of wax till i was finished.


rainesridgefarm,

if your estimations are correct, you started with a 20% rosin concentration (lower than the 25% recommended by Mann-Lake) and you further diluted it to about 9% (50 pounds of rosin out of 550 pounds total).

Were the hives 'sticky' at all (especially in the heat of summer)? Do they feel more like the outside of a candle, like a varnished piece of wood, or like the original unfinished wood?

With the 25% rosin mix, my finish is closest to varnish, and it is 'brittle' because if I scratch it with a sharp piece of metal (or even the corner of another dipped hive), it leaves a shallow white powdery scratch on the surface.

I think I am going to follow your lead and try reducing my rosin concentration into the 5-10% range. Thanks for the additional information and I appreciate any other insights you can provide.

-fafrd

p.s. where did you purchase your wax from? Mann-Lake or did you find a surce which is less expensive in those quantities?


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## rainesridgefarm

it felf more like a candle then a varnish but looked like a varnish in the sun. I think it also depends on how long you soak it for. if the wood heats all the way thru when it cools it draws the wax into the wood. if to hot it almost cooks the wood and thins the wax out so you have a thinner coat for the wood to draw in to it. 

I got my wax from www.candlesupply.com

good luck


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## Jeffzhear

fafrd said:


> "Thanks for the info... What color are your dipped hives coming out? Are you painting after dipping or leaving natural wood finish?
> 
> If I do try dipping with less rosin, I will let you know the result. Among other things, rosin is more expensive and harder to find than paraffin or beeswax.-fafrd"


My woodenware comes out a natural color and they are darker now that I have switched to darker beeswax vs paraffin. No, I don't paint while hot. My boxes and top covers are branded on all four sides with my name in three quarter inch letters and are easy to spot and less obvious when they are on location.

Let us know how you make out with the reduced rosin.


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## fafrd

rainesridgefarm said:


> I got my wax from www.candlesupply.com


thanks rainesridgefarm,

candlesupply.com has a lot of different melt points - which one did you use?

Their prices seem better than Mann-Lake, but I can pick up from Mann-Lake without having to pay shipping, so it probably comes out close to a wash. The fact that you can select the meltpoint of the paraffin from candesupply.com is an advantage over Mann-Lake, though.

-fafrd


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## fafrd

Jeffzhear said:


> Let us know how you make out with the reduced rosin.


I will let everyone how it comes out when I educethe concentration on rosi from 25% to 10%...

Do you use any specific meltpoint of paraffin, or is it all the same? (I don't believe that Mann-Lake specifies the MP of their paraffin).

-fafrd


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## rainesridgefarm

I used a high melt point parafin. I am not sure which one it was years ago


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## fafrd

rainesridgefarm said:


> I used a high melt point parafin. I am not sure which one it was years ago


Thanks for the info. Candlesupply.com has 163 degree melt point paraffin which is probably what I will try. Will let you know how it all turns out...

http://cart.candlesupply.com/product.php?productid=18818&cat=295&page=1

-fafrd


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## loggermike

Being in Ca, you will probably save on shipping by buying here. 
http://www.generalwax.com/wax/hurricane-candle-wax/cate_58/p___Z4L1600P.html


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## fafrd

loggermike said:


> Being in Ca, you will probably save on shipping by buying here.
> http://www.generalwax.com/wax/hurricane-candle-wax/cate_58/p___Z4L1600P.html


Thanks loggermike. The shipping was much cheaper, more than enough to offset the CA state sals tax, and the delivery is also much qucker. The price difference between the 160 MP Paraffin ('Hurricane Wax') and the 150 MP Paraffin was significant enough (20%) that I decided to stic with the 150 MP (which shoul still be better than the Mann-Lake Paraffin which is apparently a low 120 MP Wax).

Will let you know how it all turns out!

-fafd


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## Michael Bush

I used 2 parts beeswax and 1 part rosin (66% wax and 33% rosin) and cooked them a minium of 10 minutes (that's bubbling nicely at somewhere around 250 to 280 F). I had no problems with clumping. The wood is hot and the wax and rosin run off quickly.


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## fafrd

Michael Bush said:


> I used 2 parts beeswax and 1 part rosin (66% wax and 33% rosin) and cooked them a minium of 10 minutes (that's bubbling nicely at somewhere around 250 to 280 F). I had no problems with clumping. The wood is hot and the wax and rosin run off quickly.


Thanks Michael. Why do you use a higher ratio of Rosin? Have you ever tried a lower ratio?

I don't know why I got such bad clumping - perhaps I did not wait long enough 'at temperature' for the rosin to dissolve - it was a sticky, clumpy mess kind of like melted sugar/caramel in the bottom of a glass of milk or ice cream. I also did not have my vat filled - I only had enough wax and rosin to fill up about 3 inches of a total vat that is 18 inches tall and suppsed to be filled to about 12 inches. I had to rotate the sides through to dip my boxes.

I'm getting a lot more wax and rosin in this weekend and will try again with a full vat and waiting much longer for the rosin to dissolve in the wax. I am still interested, though, to find out how little rosin is needed to pick up most of the benefits. Do you know where the 25%/75% (or 33%/67%) recipe comes from?

-fafrd


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## fafrd

fafrd said:


> II am still interested, though, to find out how little rosin is needed to pick up most of the benefits. Do you know where the 25%/75% (or 33%/67%) recipe comes from?
> 
> -fafrd


I added a great deal more wax to my dipping vat without increasing the rosin and dipped a few more hive bodies this weekend. The Rosin concentration was reduced from 25% to between 8% - 10% and the result was perfect. Color was clear, not light brown. At 250 degrees F for 8 minutes, all of the wax was absorbed into the wood following removal, so there is no 'waxy' or 'sticky' feel. In fact, the dipped boxes look and feel so much like undipped boxes that the only way to tell that they have been dipped is to spray some water on them (it beads up and runs off on the dipped boxes).

I used high melt-point 'hurricane wax' which has a 160 degrees F melt point. The vat was full and the rosin seemed to form a gummy residue on the bottom. Dipped boxes had occasional 'wisps' or raised 'spots' of dark-brown rosin but they flake off very easily and leave a much better and more uniform appearance than my previous effort at 25% rosin concentration.

I don't know where the original recipe for 25% gum rosin came from, but from my point of view the ration can easily be reduced to 10% / 90% with equally good (or even superior) results.

-fafrd


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## fafrd

A further update on my experiements with wax dipping and gum rosin concentration.

I have dipped a few hive bodies in a gum-rosin concentration as low as 8.3% (a third of the recommended 25% concentration) and these hives came out nice and 'natural wood' light (close to the same color as before dipping) with no 'sticky' feel but a feeling of touching a wax surface which is just barely perceptible. From my point of view, 8.3% gum rosin is the lower limit on the concentrstion of gum rosin to add to the wax mixture to get an acceptable outcome.

I have also increased the amount of gum rosin to 12.5% (half of the recommended 25% concentration) and the difference is suprisingly dramatic. The wood still has a nice 'natural wood' finish but is noticaby darker than before dipping and essentiall appears to be the color of wood after it has been varnished (light brown/tan). There is no perception of touching a wax surface at all and instead, there is more of a hard and powdery feeling due to the particles of gum rosin on the surface (which can br scraped off without too much effort). At 12.5%, the color is still much lighter than when I tried dipping at 25% and there is much less clumping of gum rosin and the resulting dark spots than when I dipped at 25%. From my poin of view, 12.5% gum rosin is the upper limit on the concentrstion of gum rosin to add to the wax mixture to get an acceptable outcome.

So once again, I do not know where the original 25% gum-rosin concentration recipe originally came from, but from my experience and experiments I am convinced that 10% gum-rosin is a much more effective concentration with a target range of keeping the gum-rosin concentration between 8.3% to 12.5%.

-fafrd


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## Michael Bush

>Thanks Michael. Why do you use a higher ratio of Rosin? Have you ever tried a lower ratio?

Since my "ratio" is as much by eye as anything I've had it vary a lot. But all in all, I like more rosin. I wouldn't mind 50/50. But 1:2 works ok.

>I don't know why I got such bad clumping - perhaps I did not wait long enough 'at temperature' for the rosin to dissolve - it was a sticky, clumpy mess kind of like melted sugar/caramel in the bottom of a glass of milk or ice cream. I also did not have my vat filled - I only had enough wax and rosin to fill up about 3 inches of a total vat that is 18 inches tall and suppsed to be filled to about 12 inches. I had to rotate the sides through to dip my boxes.

The temperature should be around 230 to 250 F and the boxes should cook for 10 minutes at that temperature. If the rosin is not melted, then the wax is not up to temperature. When it is there is no rosin that is not liquid.

>I'm getting a lot more wax and rosin in this weekend and will try again with a full vat and waiting much longer for the rosin to dissolve in the wax.

I just get it hot. I don't wait for it to dissolve. That would just get it hotter. There is the issue of it getting too hot and the boxes are what moderate the temperature as the water in them boils to cool things down.

> I am still interested, though, to find out how little rosin is needed to pick up most of the benefits. Do you know where the 25%/75% (or 33%/67%) recipe comes from?

I'd go for 50:50.  I think you're going the wrong direction. But it probably doesn't matter. I just think the rosin is more durable than the wax.


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## fafrd

Michael Bush said:


> The temperature should be around 230 to 250 F and the boxes should cook for 10 minutes at that temperature. If the rosin is not melted, then the wax is not up to temperature. When it is there is no rosin that is not liquid.


My vat is now full of wax and I am heating it up to 250 degrees F for at least 15 minutes before dipping. Even at my reduced rosin concentration of 10%, I still have a thick 'sludge' on the bottom of the vat that appears to be almost all rosin. Have you ever run a long board along the bottom of your vat, Michael? If so, does it come out with a clump of melted brown rosin dripping off the end, or is your vat mixture a uniform liquid without any sludge on the bottom?

There is some rosin dissolving into the molten wax mixture in my vat, because as I add more rosin, I get a darker brown color, but I definetly have a thick sludge of rosin coating the bottom of the vat. In fact, I've added a roasting rack to the bottom of the vat to lift the dipped wood off of the bottom of the vat so that the bottom of a box that has been dipped will not come out with the bottom edge coated with a layer of thick gummy rosin.

Would appreciate any feedback to understand if my rosin appears to be behaving very differntly than it should...

-fafrd


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## Michael Bush

>My vat is now full of wax and I am heating it up to 250 degrees F for at least 15 minutes before dipping. Even at my reduced rosin concentration of 10%, I still have a thick 'sludge' on the bottom of the vat that appears to be almost all rosin. Have you ever run a long board along the bottom of your vat, Michael?

Yes.

> If so, does it come out with a clump of melted brown rosin dripping off the end, or is your vat mixture a uniform liquid without any sludge on the bottom?

No sludge. But then I have beewax and rosin.. perhaps it mixes better?

I do stir it with a stick when I add rosin or wax or both to get it mixed...


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## fafrd

Michael Bush said:


> > Is your vat mixture a uniform liquid without any sludge on the bottom?
> 
> No sludge. But then I have beewax and rosin.. perhaps it mixes better?


Sounds like perhaps there was some problem with the Gum-Rosin I first purchased from Mann-Lake. Do you think I should try to heat the mixture to a higher temperature to see if that gets it to dissolve? It's a thick, medium-brown gummy mass that probably makes a layer 1/2" on the bottom. As the mixture boils, 2-3" long wisps break free and the sides of the box will usually have 3 or 4 of these caramel-like strands stuck to the sides (and the bottom edge of the box is usually half-covered in the stuff).

No one else has ever had the 'sludge' effect with gum rosin, huh? Any advice appreciated...

-fafrd


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## t0k

I dipped hives for the first time today.
Had similar problems as you first and second dip, until the temperatures got high enough. I've added rosin too early, so it fell to the bottom and i had to stir for it to dissolve.
When everything worked temperatures were 145-155 °C.


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## Keith Jarrett

fafrd said:


> No one else has ever had the 'sludge' effect with gum rosin, huh? Any advice appreciated...-fafrd


Well, I don't use any, just straight wax at 350-375 let cool and spray the paint on before the wax becomes tacky.
Good luck


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## fafrd

t0k said:


> I dipped hives for the first time today.
> Had similar problems as you first and second dip, until the temperatures got high enough. I've added rosin too early, so it fell to the bottom and i had to stir for it to dissolve.
> When everything worked temperatures were 145-155 °C.


I think you mean 245-255 egree C, right? My paraffin has a melt point of 165 degrees F.

I may try heating higher to 280 degrees or so and mixing in the hope that this will help disolve my sludge.

If that doesn't work, sounds like I may need to scrape it all out with a piece of scrap wood and start over with some fresh gum rosin.

-fafrd


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## fafrd

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well, I don't use any, just straight wax at 350-375 let cool and spray the paint on before the wax becomes tacky.
> Good luck


Jarret,

I don't want to paint as I like the natural wood finish, and I think a bit of rosin helps avoid a waxy finish and smells nice. From what I've seen, 25% rosin ratio in the mix is just too much.

350-375 degrees F seems quite a bit hotter than most of the recipes I have seen - why do you run it so hot and how long do you fry it at such a high temperature? I think I read somewhere that the flash point of parrafin is in the low 300's - aren't you worried about the safety issue at those high temperatures?

-fafrd


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## t0k

fafrd said:


> I think you mean 245-255 egree C, right? My paraffin has a melt point of 165 degrees F.
> 
> I may try heating higher to 280 degrees or so and mixing in the hope that this will help disolve my sludge.
> 
> If that doesn't work, sounds like I may need to scrape it all out with a piece of scrap wood and start over with some fresh gum rosin.
> 
> -fafrd


145 C is 293 F
155 C is 311 F

Flash point of parrafin is around (over mostly) 200 C - 392 F it depends on which parrafin you use

Just try getting it to 300 F and i think you'll have no problem


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## Keith Jarrett

fafrd said:


> Jarret,
> 
> and I think a bit of rosin helps avoid a waxy finish and smells nice. 350-375 degrees F seems quite a bit hotter than most of the recipes I have seen - why do you run it so hot and how long do you fry it at such a high temperature?
> -fafrd


I think 400-425 is the flash point. but the main reason to get it hot is you use less wax and as it cools it soak into the wood, you won't even know they have been waxed after that 3-5 minute soak time.

Good luck with your project.


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## rainesridgefarm

I do not think the rosin does anything in this application but I used it because of the suggestions from Mann Lake. As I added more wax and it diluted down it seemed to improve the quality of the final product. 

I also noticed some sludge at the bottom at all temp ranges. Just dipping in wax will give you a great preserved box that you will not have to worry about for decades. By then you will not care.

happy dipping


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## Michael Bush

I found that it worked best between 230 and 250 F. Below 230 it doesn't cook very well. Over 250 F would be risky, in my opinion due to boil overs and fire hazard. This is 110 to 122 C.


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## Ben Brewcat

How is everyone handling the boxes... how to you hook them out of the parrafin/rosin fryer? Does handling them hot, say with welding gloves or somesuch, leave marks?


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## Michael Bush

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/RosinWaxAsPropolis.jpg

I just wore regular top grain leather gloves. They get pretty messy, but they worked. I started out with the dishwashing rubber gloves, but they get so sweaty. But they work too. The stuff gets sucked up into the boxes as they cool. No problem with fingerprints.


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## Ben Brewcat

How to you fish them out of the wax when they're done cooking?


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## Keith Jarrett

Ben, welding gloves work fine.


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## Ben Brewcat

Wait, I get it :doh:. The boxes float once you take the weight off, so you're NOT submerging hands in the wax. Jeez, and tomorrow's Monday .


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## Ben Brewcat

For an inexpensive tank (like one box at a time), any reason I couldn't cut down a 55-gal steel drum?


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## Michael Bush

Yes... I stack the boxes up above the wax, put the lid (that fits my tank) on top of that and some bricks on top of that. When you take the weight off, they float, as you say.


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## fafrd

t0k said:


> 145 C is 293 F
> 155 C is 311 F
> 
> Flash point of parrafin is around (over mostly) 200 C - 392 F it depends on which parrafin you use
> 
> Just try getting it to 300 F and i think you'll have no problem


I had obviously been breathing in too many fumes from my wax vat before my earlier response - please excuse the senior moment confusing degrees C with degrees F... You are frying at as higher temperature than me, not lower.

I have not tried as hot as 300 F before (been staying around 250F) but I will try it this hot next time. How long do you fry for at this temperature?

I have been doing 8 minutes at 250 F for fresh wood and 12 minutes at 250 F for weathered/aged wood. Do I underastand that at 300 degrees F you are frying new wood for 3-5 minutes? Have you ever fried weathered wood and for how long?

-fafrd


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## fafrd

rainesridgefarm said:


> I do not think the rosin does anything in this application but I used it because of the suggestions from Mann Lake. As I added more wax and it diluted down it seemed to improve the quality of the final product.
> 
> I also noticed some sludge at the bottom at all temp ranges. Just dipping in wax will give you a great preserved box that you will not have to worry about for decades. By then you will not care.
> 
> happy dipping


Thanks rainesridgefarm - sounds like your experience has been pretty similar to mine. I'm going to stick at about half of the concentration Mann-Lake recommends for now (12.5% rather than 25%) - at this concentration the gum rosin adds a bit of light brown color and a nice smell to the finished product without leaving it tea-colored and with lots of residue gummed up on the outside.

Don't know why others do not have a similar sludge on the bottom - could be differences in the wax (I am using high melt-point 'hurricane' paraffin) or more likely a difference in the gum rosin.

Anyway, I am pretty happy with my mixture and process noe, though I am going to experiement with even higher temperatures to see what impact that has (among other things, hgher temperatures = shorter frying time, so that is attractive).

-fafrd


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## fafrd

Ben Brewcat said:


> How is everyone handling the boxes... how to you hook them out of the parrafin/rosin fryer? Does handling them hot, say with welding gloves or somesuch, leave marks?


I have been using leather work gloves. After removing the weight or whatever is holding the boxes down, they float up enough to grab. For lids and things that are laying flat with the surface, I have a 1x4 that I push down to the bottom of the box and gently pry up with until the edge of the lid is 6 inches above the surface (at 45 degrees or so) at which point I grab it with the glove and lift out of the boiling paraffin.

Touching them with gloves leaves no mark - the wax on the outside is liquid and after propping the boxes or lids on the outer rim of the vat for a few minutes, all of the liquid wax is sucked into the wood.

-fafrd


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## fafrd

Ben Brewcat said:


> For an inexpensive tank (like one box at a time), any reason I couldn't cut down a 55-gal steel drum?


You'll save on the vat but will end up spending a lot more on the wax and gum rosin.

I spent more on wax and gum rosin to fill my vat than to have a metal shop construct the vat for me.

My vat is 24" long X 20" wide X 18" tall out of 1/16" steel and I paid about $125 for it. I bought 165 lbs of paraffin and 55 lbs of gum rosin for more than three time that amount (with shipping).

I suspect that in a circular vat, you are going to need to waste a great deal more wax to get the liquid depth that you want, and it also may be less convenient to support.

Just my $0.02 worth...

-fafrd


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## fafrd

Just a quick update for those following this thread.

I did more dipping today and the mixture I am using is 1.5lbs of gum rosin to 11 lbs of paraffin (which amount to about 12% concentration).

Versus the 8% concentration I was using earlier, this results in a finish which is noticably darker but not objectionably so. Rather than giving the 'coffee and cream' color I was getting at 25%, or the 'natural white' color I was getting at 8%, this concentration gives a very light brown/tan color similar to varnish. Texture is also very good with no waxy feel and a smooth, hard (and waterproof  ) finish.

I tried to do my dipping today at 300 degrees F but on the propane camp stove I am using as a heat source and with the wind that was bowing today, it was taking too long to heat up to that temperature and so I started dipping at 275 degrees F. The rosin was added art 275 degrees F and more/all of the gum rosin seems to have dissolved into the molten wax mixtue at that higher temperature. I still have a gummy sludge of dark brown molten rosin at the bottom of the vat, but it appears not to have gotton any worse even after doubling the total quantity of rosin in the mixture (also adding a corresponding amount of additional paraffin).

I'm very happy with my pocess now and plan to stick to a 12% concentration of gum rosin and dipping for 5 minutes at 275-300 degrees F from here on out. The end result is beautiful and very weatherproof.

-fafrd


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## dmacgregor

Hi everyone,

This thread has been very helpful as I want to dip my hives and haven't done anything like this before. But I'm not sure how much wax to get.

I'm having a custom metal tank made for dipping -- a family member owns a metal shop. The tank is long instead of tall in order to accommodate TBH's -- 50"l x24"w x20"h.

I only intend to fill it to 9"h. The rest is displacement/splash/boil over guard.

I'm not volume dipping.

So maybe a 150lbs wax and 50lbs rosin. Does this seem right?

Cheers,
Danielle


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## Michael Bush

If the volume of the tank is about 200 pints, you'll need about 200 pounds of stuff to fill it. Wax is a little less than a pound to a pint. Rosin might be a bit less than that, I'm guessing. But it's a good ballpark figure.

You're talking about 50" x 24" by 20" that's a huge tank. That's 24,000 cubic inches. that will take about 800 pounds of wax to fill.

Your top bar hive might be that size but you only need to fit haf of it in the tank. What if you build the tank 25" tall by 20" by 24" in width and length and put half of the top bar hive in from the top with the other half sticking out the top. boil for ten minutes and flip it over. Now you only need 400 pounds of wax...

Another option would be to build the tank 50" x 24" by 6" and only fill it 2" deep. Then rotate the box in the wax one side at a time (boiling each side for ten minutes), and then stand it on end to get the ends. That would only take 83 pounds of wax and five times as long to dip it.


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## dmacgregor

Michael,

I like your third option the best. It's the most flexible tank size, and the cheapest cost for wax. That's exactly what I'll do.

Thank you very much for the reply!

~Danielle


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## sakhoney

http://www.firestartersonline.com/ for cheap wax


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## Michael Bush

I wear regular buckskin or doeskin leather gloves. This is just the finger but you can see the leather and the bees gathering the beeswax/rosin mixture.


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