# Shop tools for wood working & Building Tips/Tricks



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource!


Plans for just about anything are here: http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/

A table saw makes building hive bodies much easier, but it can be done with just a portable circular saw and a router if that is all you have. You may find that substituting rabbet joints for box joints shown in some plans makes your woodworking tasks much simpler.

I use a dado blade in a table saw to make rabbeted boxes, but a router will work as a slower alternative.


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

I'm getting by with a table saw and an 18ga pin nailer to build hive bodies . I do a rabbet joint on the end panel so there's no hole in the corner like if you rabbet the sides . I buy frames , but use the same nailer to assemble them . Additional tools include a light hammer , side cutter , needle nose pliers , a square and a chisel and a small punch I made to install grommets . That gets them wired and foundation installed . 
I worked in cabinet shops for years , and have to keep reminding myself that hive bodies don't need the same precision as a $25,000 reception desk ...


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

+1 to Terry C. 

That's not far from my setup when I was starting out. I'd include a wood rasp and 10 pipe clamps all 36" long (2 are for diagonal pressure if out-of-square).

The table saw will need a dado set for cuts up to 3/4 inch wide, and a sled to hold a stack of parts for cutting the finger notches and an indexing peg to locate the next cut. The finger joint dado sled indexes into both slots on the table saw's table.

You'd be wise to build an assembly jig about 1/64th inch smaller than the inside dimensions (apply postage tape to make glue clean-up easy) for clamping it square and getting those first 8 staples in. Also build the frame assembly jig - saves so much time and no staples in the fingers.


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## Treehopper (Dec 9, 2012)

Not including any salvaged (free) lumber, I am building boxes-deeps and mediums-for an average $7.50 each...with free labor. Frames (without foundation) under a quarter each. I find the tablesaw to be invaluable. A small table router would be the next addition. After hand nailing a few hundred frames, you would appreciate a compressor and narrow crown stapler.


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## BeeHopper (Feb 19, 2015)

Thanks for the quick replies!

I have made a list that I'm still adding too some of it I have and the rest of it I'm buying used, I realize most of these are not must haves for building hives but they are nice to have for other projects. I tend to go over the top when I wanna do something so I've marked what I think is a must have with a asterisk and you guys guys can pick at it from there.

*Air Compressor
*Table Saw
*Router & Table
*Miter Saw
*Brad Nailer
*Stapler
*Circular Saw
Drill Press
*Power Sander
Belt Sander
*Block Plane
Framing Square
*Carpenters Square
T-Bevel
Compass
Chalk Line
*Tape Measure
*Tin Snips
Nail Sets
*Chisels and Gouges
Wood Rasp
*Level
*Pipe Clamps 36"
*Saw Horses
*Work Bench
*Various Hand Tools Screw Drivers, Pliers, Side Cuts, etc etc

All you guys mentioned dadoes so blades are a given. What bits do you use for your routers? Im not a total newb at wood working but have little experience. I'm a master mechanic by trade.

So there is some cost saving in the long run? Obviously a guy couldn't compete with big builders with cnc machines but I think the quality/durability would be unmatched

Anyway feel free to add or take away from the list and by all means if you have any tips/tricks/jig plan please post them.

Again thanks in advance.


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

Treehopper said:


> Not including any salvaged (free) lumber, I am building boxes-deeps and mediums-for an average $7.50 each...with free labor. Frames (without foundation) under a quarter each. I find the table saw to be invaluable. A small table router would be the next addition. After hand nailing a few hundred frames, you would appreciate a compressor and narrow crown stapler.


 I apparently needed to mention the compressor <60 gal/6HP> that powers the pin nailer in my previous post ... I have a well-equipped machine shop as a sometimes profitable hobby , built high-end commercial stuff - radius desks , inlay work , made my own moldings and all that . I'm a much happier guy now I'm retired and can putter with my bees , my garden , and the occasional shop project . I still have enough tooling to build a nice kitchen cabinet set , and will be doing so in the sorta-near future . Gotta build the kitchen first . Oh , and all my boxes , stands , etc are built of salvaged lumber .


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

I laugh to myself every time I read one of these threads. This endeavor does not need to be high tech unless you WANT it to be. I use a hand saw, a router, a square, and hammer and nails. I've made a few jigs--one for assembling boxes and another for frames, but I am strictly low tech in my approach to hive building. My hives work quite nicely and last just as long as the fancy ones. You can see my IPM bottom board design on my website for a sample of my basic approach.



Rusty


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

if you are looking at $50 per super you are looking in the wrong place. the last deeps I bought last fall were 8.75 assembled and glued, the frames were 55 cents unassembled so that is less than $15 per 10 frame deep box including frames and "opps" paint... I like to build my own but unless the wood is next to free you do not save much..., you really should have a table saw [or radial arm saw] , square, clamps , hammer and drill-driver to build your own. look on craig's list for the saw, get a belt drive table saw or radial arm saw [ a buy used now, as they are out of fashion] 10 inch or larger, they are available for less than $100 or $150 or less, all the time in my area for nice ones . get a new 10 inch carbide blade and the hand tools at harbor-freight. get a drill driver [I like the corded ones] some where besides harbor freight. unfortunately harbor freight electric tools are often not too good. the Wal-Mart cheap electric tools are ok for a small budget, you can do better than wall-marts hand tools.. down the road harbor freight is a good place to get air tools dirt cheap, often they come from the same places as the expensive brands, from that big industrial park west of los angles. used battery drill-drivers are all over the place but are not a good idea. good plans are free on beesource. if building your own use rabbit corners and exterior screws and exterior glue. the only jig you should need is a frame jig, make it. unless you get good at wood-working and like making a lot of saw cuts buy your frames.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Matheson, he probably is referring to a super that is assembled, painted, frames assembled and foundation already in and ready to just set in place. That is what a local guy here charges for a deep setup though. Not a bad price, for everything ready. 

But if you want to make your own boxes, they are quick and you don't even need any special joint at all. All mine are butt jointed and glued and nailed. I also just run 2 passes down the table saw for the frame rest, I get a small piece of scrap that way. If you dado them it all goes in the smoker. Frames on the other hand take more precision and time.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

If your paying $50 a super I suggest you shop around. Unless you can find a really cheap source of lumber in CO. I'm not sure how much your going to save.


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## BeeHopper (Feb 19, 2015)

Well I guess I did exaggerate a bit with cost of supers its more like 35 a super. But then you add in tops, covers, excluders and bottom boards for supers then the cost starts to go up. 

I maybe wrong If I am throw me a link to your source.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

$35 is about right. Build what you can. I'm not sure building frames would be a good use of time. Spend some of this CO winter shopping around.

I hope you didn't think beekeeping is inexpensive?


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## BeeHopper (Feb 19, 2015)

The frames are the most expensive part of the hive and I think it should be one of the things you should spend the most time on imo, because thats where you get all your money from.

I'm trying to figure what would be the most cost effective in the long run. I'm assuming it all boils down to how valuable your time is? Each has its drawbacks, if you buy your hives then that frees up time for other things. But if you build your hives I see a few advantages where you can make repairs, knock out a hive or two when you need it, modify and experiment, build hives in the winter during the off season and have a quality product.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

You seem to have it all planned out- so go for it.

Best of luck in your endeavor.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

How many hives do you plan on ending up with? If you are in it as a hobby and only plan on like 10 hives you might as well buy the woodware if you don't already have the tools. You can buy an un assembled deep from Mann Lake and others for about $15.00. I bought a 6 foot 1x12 last week for about $5.00, which will make one deep. So there is some room for savings. But if you go out and buy $500.00 worth of tools to build hives with then you will have to build a ton of them to make your money back in savings. I have a cheap $135.00 table saw from Lowes and a dado set. I also have a cheap air nailer from Harbor freight. I cut length, then width, the dado the joints all with my table saw then nail them together.


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

I build and sell hives. These are the tools I won't do without.

Table saw
Circular saw
Air compressor
Pneumatic stapler
Cordless drill
Sliding miter saw
Quality dado set


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

I find there is only one place that can remotely be close to competing with building my own equipment. That's western bee on polson Montana. The further you Live from a bee equipment manufacturer, spendier it is.

My first year,i made all my own equipment from scratch. Spent many hours in the shed making equipment from 2x and also had a steep learning curve. My goal is still to do this, but more effectively.

Time is of my essence this year,so i have not refined the process yet. Instead i bought 1x from the hardware store and did it that way myself.

To make equipment,you always have to balance money vs time. Depending on how financially prepared you are,dictates how you do this.

Bare minimum, a hand saw to cut the boards to length. Then even a circular saw could be used with a jig for the rabbit joints. Get some helical nails and hammer it together. The cut off from cutting the board to height can be used and nailed for hand holds.

This method would be time consuming. So to save some time and not break the bank, consider buying a chop saw and router with a table if possible at bare minimum.

Harbor freight has them for cheap and its good enough for making equipment to house a bee!

If you can swing it, get a table saw, compressor and an air stapler that uses 1/4inch crown staples at 5/8long.

This will allow you to build your boxes pretty easily and effectively. If you get the router, get an expensive Diablo bit that is a 3/4 straight bit.

You can router out frame rests and the rabbits for the boxes.

As for making frames, it's a bit trickier. It can be done but you really want to like wood working...

I can't remember the guy, but i have a website saved where he shows how to make frames cheap and easy using a table saw and router.

They don't look like the conventional dadant frames but i don't have any problems.

There really is more than one way to skin a cat doing this so experimentation is only going to be able to tell you how you want to do it.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

My questions are what would be the "must have" tools to do this besides a stapler, brad nailer, clamps, compressor and a miter saw/table saw. 

This is really all you need to make hive bodies. 

Frames however, I found are cheaper to buy than build. By the time you add up the materials, electricity, and YOUR time...... it's not worth it to me.


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## BeeHopper (Feb 19, 2015)

flyin-lowe said:


> How many hives do you plan on ending up with? If you are in it as a hobby and only plan on like 10 hives you might as well buy the woodware if you don't already have the tools. You can buy an un assembled deep from Mann Lake and others for about $15.00. I bought a 6 foot 1x12 last week for about $5.00, which will make one deep. So there is some room for savings. But if you go out and buy $500.00 worth of tools to build hives with then you will have to build a ton of them to make your money back in savings. I have a cheap $135.00 table saw from Lowes and a dado set. I also have a cheap air nailer from Harbor freight. I cut length, then width, the dado the joints all with my table saw then nail them together.


How many I plan on ending up with? 500-1000.

I've been able to find 10 frame budget mediums for 8.56 and frames for a 1.60 not assembled.

I don't mind buying the shop tools because I can always use them for something else. It's the lumber, nails/staples, glue and my time that gets me. If I can find 2nd hand lumber from barns or whatever that is great but its hard to come by in my area.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

look some more. if you plan on 500 or more you will not have a lot of time to make about 15 saw cuts for each frame. there are not that many hours in a month and likely not enough money to hire that much help.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

When you buy unassembled frames in bulk you can get them for a decent price. In bulk, I 100s of frame. I don't have the time, patients, or skill to start cutting my frames. I just buy in bulk and use a 10 frame jig, TBIII glue, and a pneumatic stapler to assemble them.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

500-1000 hives would mean a whole bunch of boxes. You won't have time for anything else unless you plan on having someone build for you. I would be curious to see how many beeks with that many hives built their own equipment.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

My guess is there is a lot that goes along with 500-1000 hives. Building the boxes and frames are only part of the complex and expensive equation. I'm building up to 100 and I know how much time and money that is cost us and it's expensive.


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## BeeHopper (Feb 19, 2015)

5000 boxes 50,000 frames, that would give me 5 medium supers per hive. 11.50(commercial) thats 57.5k. At 1.60 a frame thats 80k. So 137.5k total for 1000 hives with out bottom boards, covers and tops. So a commercial beek (1k hives is small for commercial) is looking at a quarter million in just hives purchased from the big 5. Then you figure in equipment, reality, and transportation; your looking at a total investment of a half million. But the potential income far out weighs the initial cost.

Granted 1k hives is a far stretch but that is my goal but will more likely come in at around 400-500 hives. So as you can see this is why Im wondering if it would pay off to be able produce a hundred or so hives threw the winter months. 

From what I'm gathering from this thread is *IF* you can get your lumber cheap enough and you have free labor then it is cost effective to build your own hives vs buying them un-assembled. But like I've stated earlier I do see some advantages in building your equipment (quality & flexibility) and you also would not have to lay-off during the winter months.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

How close are you to the 400-500 hives or is this your 1st year?


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## BeeHopper (Feb 19, 2015)

MTN-Bees said:


> How close are you to the 400-500 hives or is this your 1st year?


hoping for 120 in june really dont see how thats relevant


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

1000 hives won't cost you a quarter mil. Your crazy...

I quoted myself for a 500 hive operation and it was almost 30k...


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

500 complete hive operation for 30k.... sign me up. Bees alone at 50.00 per package comes to 25,000.00 right?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

kilocharlie said:


> +1 to Terry C.
> 
> That's not far from my setup when I was starting out. I'd include a wood rasp and 10 pipe clamps all 36" long (2 are for diagonal pressure if out-of-square).
> 
> ...


When you buy your table saw bee sure to get a powerful motor and a long arbor. I bought a table saw that I like a lot, but when I got my dado blade, I found that my 1/2" arbor would not handle all of the blades. Also the motor that is strong enough to dim the lights in my shop when it starts is still not powerful enough to make the cuts on one pass.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

By disassembled in quantity 50 and above for the price break. All you need is a nail gun or stapler and some clamps and glue to assemble them. I have a full professional cabinet shop for my personal use and I buy disassembled cheaper than I can cut them.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Mr.Beeman said:


> 500 complete hive operation for 30k.... sign me up. Bees alone at 50.00 per package comes to 25,000.00 right?


No,not complete. He was only speaking of equipment.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

hex0rz said:


> 1000 hives won't cost you a quarter mil. Your crazy...
> 
> I quoted myself for a 500 hive operation and it was almost 30k...


This is the post I was responding to her0rz. Which is your post. I gathered when you stated this it was a COMPLETE hive operation. Maybe not? Minus bees? Confusing.


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

BeeHopper said:


> How many I plan on ending up with? 500-1000.
> 
> I've been able to find 10 frame budget mediums for 8.56 and frames for a 1.60 not assembled.
> 
> I don't mind buying the shop tools because I can always use them for something else. It's the lumber, nails/staples, glue and my time that gets me. If I can find 2nd hand lumber from barns or whatever that is great but its hard to come by in my area.


Buying something like a table saw or a brad nailer or staple gun is never going to be a bad purchase - especially if you check craigslist and get them there - they're just such useful tools, and if you have them, you'll find uses for them.

But yeah, a lot of these places aren't really any more expensive to buy boxes than it is to buy wood at Lowes - so you definitely need to think whether it's worth it (if you're worried about cost alone, and don't enjoy doing it)


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## newbury (Jul 19, 2014)

BeeHopper said:


> MTN-Bees said:
> 
> 
> > How close are you to the 400-500 hives or is this your 1st year?
> ...


It's relevant because you are asking the question about "400 to 500 hives", you've got 12 posts and haven't demonstrated anything beyond it being a pipe dream. Have you even taken care of bees for a full year?
/edit - I haven't for about 40 years and all the potential problems make is seem like a chancy proposition.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

A lot of it also depends on your location. I have found that big box stores really jack up their lumber prices in big cities because they can. I live in a smaller market and my local Menards had 3 foot long 1x12's for under $2.00. Two of those makes 1 deep, less then $4.00. 30 miles closer to Indianapolis and a 6 foot 1x12 is$11.99. So the cost of building one deep has almost tripled. Sometimes driving 30-50 miles can save you a ton of money. If you are close to a market that has cheaper lumber prices you can definitely save a ton of money. If you live in a larger city it is likely going to be hard to beet the price of the assembled prices that many companies advertise.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

You need a good framing nailer for supers, Ridgid Rules!:thumbsup:


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Who actually uses clamps on boxes?

I use rabbet joints and box jig and found that the pressure on the staple gun is more than enough.More important is to plan your cuts around warp and twist.Any cupping goes with cup towards the inside(or cup down when cutting rabbets with dado)
To square,I screw 2boards at 90° on the bench top,shove the box into the angle to square and tack a temporary diaganol until the glue dries

I use cull from the big box at 70% off if I can't find free.
Most defects are easily cut out but some boards are tossed back.
I'm small time so I collect all year to make the 20 or so boxes I make each year.If I were going commercial I'd look for good used equipment.Plenty out there


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