# I have a cutout to bid. Really.



## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

HELP! Actually I'm starting to guess the answers to bee questions before the experienced beeks get to them, so I might be half way ready. Not quite equipment ready. I will probably rent a scaffold, the entry point is under inexpensive fiberboard (masonite) type siding that I know Home Depot still sells, because I got some for one wall of my house last fall. Warned the home owner we would be replacing that, no telling if it will come off in re-hangable condition. 

I have pm'd my local mentor, haven't heard back.

But I am SO excited. I took a pic but it's almost unnecessary. Foundation shift caused a crack between bricks on the lower story of the house, about bee width, swarm moved in spring 2011, above the bricks, and the crack, house goes to masonite siding. And the beehive is in behind that, between the corner of the house and the side of the fireplace chimney, nice, brick, a beeswidth furrow between every brick. Foragers periodically enter the den and go to the windows, trying to get out. 

I have no earthly idea what price to bid (I would cheerfully work for free for the bees and the experience). I was going to pass it to a more experienced company but it just looks too easy. 

My plan is NOT set. Not sure whether to build a beevac, drill a holesaw opening the diameter of the beevac hose, and try to remove the loose workers first (liable to tick them all off). 

My initial thought was just pry the siding off, have a lot of boxes with lids, put comb and bees in boxes, put in back of truck, leave a box for foragers to return to, be SURE to scrape off as much wax and honey as possible, seal openings into house from exterior side with great stuff foam, put new siding on, and Take off. Actually my crew can do the reassembly while I move the bees out.

Tips? Criticism?

Gypsi


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

all I can say is that it will be educational. good luck


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I would take the siding off. The rest of your plan looks good to me. cchoganjr


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## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

What kind of brick? Is it a brick wall or just a stem wall?If its a brick wall is there paneling/drywall inside?ARE you sure the bees are under the upperfloor siding? Alot of Bkeepers that do cutouts don't do the repairs, they leave that to a builder that knows the local codes and have the lic. and insurance but others do. just expect the unexpected. and good luck. Jim


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

The brick on the side of the house will be brick veneer - based on what is customary in this area, where code stood when the house was built. The house is 33 years old
The brick chimney is solid brick, inside and out. (doubtless with a metal liner) The area to the right of the fireplace where the bees are coming in has a bookcase. And in the upper right corner, where ceiling meets walls, is blue masking tape covering one of the bee entrances into the room, placed by the homeowners. 

To do the smallest amount of damage to the home, and get the best view, I think the siding is my best course. Customer has observed bees going in and out of the corner, above the crack in the brick. I will need a very tight contract that excludes me from liability on the foundation problem that actually opened the path for the bees. I don't mind foaming or caulking cracks closed, but that will not stop new foundation damage. I think the legal liability exclusion list is going to be trickier than the removal, and the removal probably trickier than the repair. I do want to build a bee-vac box first though, just in case part of the bees are between the brick and the exterior sheathing on the lower portion of the house. hoping there is NOT comb down there. There is no discoloration of interior drywall adjacent to the bee hole in the den, either on the ceiling, or the wall to the right of the bookcase. Bookcase is solid wood but I don't see wax or honey seeping past its upper corners. 

I do have the insurance to cover "handyman" type repairs - I expanded my liability coverage last year. And I have a basic knowledge of both building codes, and customary contractor / handyman practices. My experience with bad workmanship have backed me into the repair business, starting with fixing my own home. (I don't do plumbing or electrical anywhere else, not licensed.)

Gypsi


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Around here we charge $75.00 hour and owner is responsible for repairs. That way you don't have to make multiple trips back. Go through the siding. You can build a simple vac like this: https://plus.google.com/photos/111863660513010434468/albums/5617092227698654225?banner=pwa Watch the airflow suction on the Vac. Too strong and the bees are dead.

Make sure you have a queen clip and try to spot here during the extraction. Clip her if you spot her to protect her from going in the vac. If you don't see her, look for her later. It's OK if she goes through the vac, just be really careful with the air suction.

Good luck, should be fun!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

It does not mater what code was when the house was built. If you remove it it has to be replaced at code, by law a contractor has to do this here. Including siding. insulation. any electrical you come across etc. moisture barrier and any changes in nailing schedules etc. If you want to really get to it you will want an asbestos test ran before you start tearing into things but then I live in the world of government. IF you are tearing out and some inspector decides to test the materials and finds a positive. no amount of bees are going to make up for the cost. IF you can remove material without cutting, drilling. or excessive breaking. That means you are trying your best to get it out in one piece. then the asbestos issue pretty much becomes a non issue. I removed all the asbestos tainted siding from my house several years ago. as long as we did not break up the tiles there was no problem. disposal was another issue but not a huge one.

If it was me I would stick with the removal of bees and let those that repair houses do what they do.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> If it was me I would stick with the removal of bees and let those that repair houses do what they do.


Good advice. Do what you do best. Let others do what they do best.

See Daniel, I look for things we agree on too. Good Post.

Gypsi,
Have you considered doing a Trap Out, instead of cutting open someones' house? A friend of mine removed bees from an Historical Building last year. He attatched a nuc sized box to the wall of the building which had a tube going into the hole where bees were coming and going and w/ a hole on the other side of the box for an entrance.

After a period of time the box was checked and he found that honey was being stored there. At the time of another check he found brood. Then he saw the queen. He removed the box and took it home. He brought a colony back to see if it would rob the honey out of the wall. I don't recall whether it did or not.

Good luck w/ your removal.


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## Briarhill (Dec 23, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> If it was me I would stick with the removal of bees and let those that repair houses do what they do.


I have the home owners sign an agreement to this nature. I'm as careful as I can be while taking their home apart. But I leave the reconstruction to the professionals.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Be sure to leave your self an "escape" clause in the contract in case you find something unexpected when you remove the siding.You might find something like bees between the brick chimney and flue liner or some other nightmare you can not deal with.


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## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

I have info/agreement letters for both trapouts and cutouts that explain how each is done and projected cost for each. The cutout agreement states that I will not cut structial beams and that I may stop any time I feel an expert is needed for continued dismantaling and that any repair is up to the homeowner or their contractor. Trapouts I bid flat rate and cutouts at $75. per hour plus the cost of special tools/equipment such as a manlift or bucket truck. Jim


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I have done a few cutouts; Ask if bees were sprayed before you ever go.

I'd be willing to bet that your enthusiasm will be tempered by reality.

1.)Don't even start till you have a signed agreement explaining EXACTLY what you will & won't do.
Extraction only. Extraction+Repairs. Better leave the repair estimate open ended.

2.) After the setup/cutout/cleanup you will get an education. I have been doing remodeling for 30+ years & I thought I could anticipate the whole procedure...WRONG! 
I wouldn't do it for less than $400+$75 an hr. 

3.) The bees will probably not make it. Combine them if you believe they are healthy. If you are doing it for the bees you are certain to be disappointed.
Vacuuming bees kills a lot & stresses the rest. I cut out a huge colony 2'wide x7' high, boxed them didn't screen them in, absconded in one day.

4.) I think it would be easier to do repairs to the interior, but I haven't seen the job...so you make the call.

5.) Trapout is a lot longer, less invasive. Do you want to be compensated for repeat visits?

I too was excited about getting free bees. You will more apt to go swarm catching after a cutout. Major mess!


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I say go for it. Take your time and save the bees. A chance like this does not come by every day.

Allot of different options to try from the above posts. pick the best ones for you and be flexible if you need can change plans.

Good luck have fun.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

First things first,

I find that half the time bees are often not where I think they will be and I take pains to find out before starting to limit damages and savetime. Stethescope, borescope, thermal reader all help to let you know what your getting into ahead of time.

I thought this colony was in the outside wall till I scoped them:























I add an extra $250 bucks if the bees have been sprayed.

Don


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Now I'm wanting something that will view infrared before I touch this cutout. Least expensive effective model?


I found a Fluke TI-10 for a bit over $5,000. and I thought my other bee toys were expensive!!!! So glad I checked Grainger's online instead of by phone. The call would have been quite humorous.


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## Dave360 (Apr 12, 2010)

In my area East Texas Nacogdoches and surrounding area I charge $350.00 for removal up to 2 scaffold high no repair
but as others have stated you dont always get the bees did 12 cut outs last year and ended with about 8 colony's that stayed and had queens or made new 
this time of year if you dont get the queen small chance of them being able to make new queen and get her matted even if you get eggs an larva

good luck it is hard messy work but fun also

David


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

well, do I need to get infrared and/or a stethoscope before I pull this piece of siding off to look?








The bees entrance is reputed to be where the crack in the brick meets the corner of the siding. A lot of foundation shifting occurred last summer during the drought, the owner didn't start watering her foundation until damage was done. She works for the schools, her husband is retired with COPD and other disabilities, so they don't have a lot of money. I want to do it right, not do damage, and they really don't have a lot of cash to hire a contractor or ability. If it is simple, and we simply get the bees out, and close exterior openings, and don't do more damage, I'd be happy. 

Infrared sounds good, because the bees could be between the first and second floors as well as behind this siding. But if they are between the first and second floors (oh mentor, are you reading this?)... I'm scared. Not of the bees, but of getting into a repair situation above my level of expertise. 

Gypsi


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

Infrared is nice but not necessary. If you are unsure as to where the bees are a stethescope or even turning a funnel upside down will narrow it down somewhat. Another trick is to insert a thin wire or coat hanger through the wall until you hit honey. If you miss, the small holes are easily reparied. I too have found them not to be where logic would indicate they "should" be. For some educational videos look up JP's bee removal videos on Youtube. Entertaining and educational. Covers all sorts of removals from walls to ceilings to floors, etc.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Gypsi,

Maybe instead of purchasing the infrared, you could rent it. Or maybe a contractor would operate his own infrared equipment for you (or borrow it to you) if he knew he was helping a couple with special circumstances and limited funds. 

Don't forget the camera, rubber bands and pail of warm water. Let us know how it goes and good luck.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I haven't been fol,lowing this closely, but, when you mention infrared I see money being spent which I thought Gypsi didn't have to invest in bees. Maybe this project is going to cost Gypsi more than just buying bees would.


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## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

A stethoscope helps and as mentioned you can use a small metal rod or coat hanger to probe the walls or ceiling, just drill small holes in the paneling and insert the rod and see if you get honey back. Another tool you can use is a thermal themometer and check for warm/hot spots. You can get one at an auto parts store for around 60 bucks or check Harbor Freight. Jim


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I haven't been fol,lowing this closely, but, when you mention infrared I see money being spent which I thought Gypsi didn't have to invest in bees. Maybe this project is going to cost Gypsi more than just buying bees would.


Mark,

I think you missed a few things. If I'd been drinking coffee and called to price the thermal imaging device, the coffee would have spewed everywhere.  No, it won't cost me that much. But I am accumulating tools for future work too. I have a ton of word of mouth contacts locally, an almost 13 year business track record, this may be my first removal, but I doubt it will be my last. So I am examining all options to do professional grade work. My annual tool bill is at least $1K most years. I buy tools like most beekeepers buy bees. And I use them to pay for tools. Besides which, I already ordered 2 nucs. I NEVER have any money in late November, December or early January. And I didn't order bees until we got a weather report that said the drought would break this year. I INVEST money. I don't throw it away if I can help it. Last year, my bee money was educational - I lost the bees but gained the knowledge. And that too is an INVESTMENT. 

Gypsi

(thank you to everyone who replied, I think that we will pull this off. Will pick up a stethoscope and may hit harbor freight for the heat sensor tomorrow. That is given the customer goes for the bid. And that my mentor concurs. If this customer doesn't bite, I can postpone the expenses, but still have gained knowledge. )


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Just looked at your photo. A larger image woudl help but this is what I would do if it where me. Regardless of the "Rules" I would pop that piece of siding off being prepared that the entire colony may be attached to it. I am assuming it is not tong and groove or ship lap or any other reason the edges would be held in place by joining pieces of siding. I also assume that it is screwed in place. I guess I should say hopeful that it is screwed in place. If it is nailed and possibly glued you may not be able to remove it without damaging it.

It does not look like this is actual siding but painted plywood. The hope would be to remove the one piece be able to get the bees and get the heck out again. The Rule would be that the ply needs to be replaced with approved siding but they have to catch you first. I think there is very little chance of running into trouble with inspectors, just be informed.

Hope for the best plan for the worst and realize you may have to destroy that siding to get it off. then there will be a hole that needs to be covered. On top of that the chances the bees will be nice and convenient once you do remove that piece are just a tad below nothing. Just being realistic with that thought.

But yea I would try to see what is behind that one piece. That is until or if information dictates otherwise.

Oops just took a second look at the photo and I can just barely tell that it is T-111 siding. Same issues about getting it off in one piece apply. IT does not strike me as installed all that well so there is some hope.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

A lot of times when I find bees next to brick chimney chases they have gone around the corner of the chase and are generally right over the fireplace mantel and only accessable from inside the house. The bees like it because there is always a big void with no insulation there:























If thats the case here they will be very easy to find with a stethescope, listening from inside the house. 

Good luck. ...Don


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I would try and locate them from the inside with a stethoscope. 50/50 chance they are behind brick which unless the homeowner would let you tackle it from the interior, will be a no go on a cutout. Also they are at a height that may put them in the floor joist for the second floor. 
Due to your inexperience I would only offer to do it for a donation to help offset your costs. 
Happy hunting.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I have a stethoscope appointment with my customer for 11 am tomorrow. Simplest way is the best. Thank you Don. (and everyone)

oh - that siding - it's kinda fiberboard stuff with vertical grooves cut in it, they sell it at Home Depot. Never figured it would come off in one piece, even with unscrewing it, planned on having to replace. It's cheap - maybe $35 a sheet.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I think removals are fine if you are in the removal business - *for profit* or entertainment. If you are doing it for increase, buying a $25 queen is a better value in your life. Plus, to stay out of trouble you probably/often are required by law to have several different insurances and licenses.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I want to learn to do removals, because a bad removal is why I had to buy bees. poisoned honey from a bad removal a block from me killed every pollinator in the area - even the yj's, in 2010. 

I will eventually do them for profit, but this one is pro-bono, covering my costs, but being carefully done all the same, as I learn to do them properly, with my mentor. And I have the insurance. I expanded my coverage. Licensing, in Texas? Well it is pretty darned slack except for plumbing, electrical, hvac, and pest control involving poisons. Mostly non-existent.


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## Dave360 (Apr 12, 2010)

Texas does require a permit to remove bees from property other than your own it costs $35.00
From dept agg
Google texas bee removal permit for form
But there is little emforcement

Dave


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Really? Yikes. I guess that's why most of the removals I've encountered were with Raid, and the poisoned honey wiped out everything. Well, I'm still exploring - tomorrow with Stethoscope.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

It is going to be a trap out. Encased in brick, are these bees, I believe. Took my stethoscope and a coathanger. Never hit honey from either side, but found a huge crack in the mortared brick wall at the edge of the right bookcase, just behind it. This is how they have been getting in the house. Stuffed napkins & tissue in the crack for now. Location isn't inconvenient for me to get by weekly or bi-weekly, when on other errands, and I don't want to make a mess, so it will be a trap out and educational all the same.








The brick wall appears to continue all the way up behind the bookcase. Certainly for the first inch or 2. Blue tape and tissue over bee entry points (and the top corner of bookcase, ceiling, wall as well, but a wire inserted did not encounter honey or hive.)

Gypsi


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## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

Good job. one small step towards removing bees and one large step towards doing it right. A little time today saved alot of time and disapointment(you and the home owner)if you had torn apart a wall only to find the bees not where you or he THOUGHT theym to be. Jim


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Nice investigative work Gypsi. I think you're a natural.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Your confidence really helps Charlie - I feel a bit under-educated and overwhelmed, but I make up for it with pure bloody perseverence.. Moved over to the "how to get the queen out" thread. Good pictures!


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