# Mini Mating Nuc



## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

I was wondering if anyone on here uses mini mating nucs? 

If so, then:
What is your process to using them? 
How many queens do you rear each year using them? 
Pros? Cons?

I'd like to learn how to use mini mating nucs with shook swarms and queen cells as a way to use less resources to get the queen mated. Then, transfer the mated queen to a 5-frame nucleus colony as needed. 

Also, if anyone has read read Brother Adam's book, _Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey_, I'm curious to know if you interpreted what he was saying as he keeps the queens all winter in the single deep 4-way mating nuc without transferring it to a larger nuc that he allows to build up before winter. I'm interpreting it that he says that is his process but it just doesn't seem that'd provide enough resources for the nuc to make it through the winter. Also, is that a 4-way mating nuc from a modified Dadant hive body or what is it?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I use a 4-way mating nuc box similar to Bro. Adam's. The frame size is a bit different, and the feeder is different. 

His frame is 8 1/4" x 11 1/4". Mine is a standard deep...9 1/8, and just about half the length. He used a hive top feeder, while I use a division board feeder. My feeder is the divider on each side of the central divider. His is a piece of masonite. 

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/DSC_5036_zpsjgkl4uzn.jpg

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/DSC_5043_zps254f29ed.jpg

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/DSC_5033_zps4bc9a1f0.jpg

My mating nuc box:

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0005-2.jpg

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/2-fours1-8frame.jpg

I winter the mating nucs as 2-way not 4-way. In my climate this is a better plan. For Bro Adam in Devon or you in Texas...I would think they could easily winter as 4-way mating nucs. In late April, I add boxes of empty mating nuc frames on top of the surviving mating nucs, and allow the queens to populate the combs and fill them with brood. At the end of May, tyne day before cells are ready to harvest, I break up the wintered mating nucs into 4-way again...each getting one honey, two brood, and an empty comb. Not too many bees or they'll get too strong to soon. Cell acceptance goes down with very strong nucs. 

Then 16 days after giving cells, the queens are harvested, band the next day cells are given again. The queens are used to make nucs, re-queen production colonies, or sold. This cell building/queen mating goes on until late July. On the last round of queens, in early August, one queen on each side of the central divider is taken, the feeder is moved to the sidewall, the remaining queen gets all 8 combs, and the little colonies are wintered. 

I raise about 1200 queens a year using these mating nucs. 
Pro...smaller nucs with only 4 mating nuc frames makes it easier to find the queens. Fewer bee resources for mating queens when compared with standard nucs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuSNQIlRoSk

Cons...frames aren't compatible with standard equipment. 

He did winter his queens in a 4-way configuration. Remember that he wintered his bees in county Devon. Their winter is quite mild, with little snow and not very cold when compared with many areas of North America. I was there at the end of October and Ivy was blooming well with nectar and pollen available. Most winters allow the bees to forage most winter months...at least pollen. I was in the area again last February. Snowdrops, Crocus, Alder, Hazel, and Daffodils were in bloom. Not likely in the northern regions of America. Probably so in Texas, yes?


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

If you can come up with a way to get the mini frames drawn out(and with brood/bees) in regular colonies before, I think that's better and easier than shaking bees in and feeding. Found out first hand this year.


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> I use a 4-way mating nuc box similar to Bro. Adam's. The frame size is a bit different, and the feeder is different.
> 
> His frame is 8 1/4" x 11 1/4". Mine is a standard deep...9 1/8, and just about half the length. He used a hive top feeder, while I use a division board feeder. My feeder is the divider on each side of the central divider. His is a piece of masonite.
> 
> ...


Michael, this is GREAT information and exactly what I was looking for! Thank you very much and it's awesome that you've been to the apiary at Buckfast Abbey and seen first hand how theirs works and the comparison with yours.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

in the past I have used 4 frame medium mating nucs. They work well for me and use standard equipment. I just finished turning a long lang into a 5 compartment queen castle with each chamber holding 4 medium frames.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

I run a similar nuc, but it functions as a 2-way with entrances on opposite ends. The box itself can hold 10 frame, but I slide in a divider and have 4 frames on either side. I use deeps and mediums, each have their place, but the deeps will winter well on 4 frames with sugar on top. The mediums will not winter well on 4 frames, so I stack them up.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

JSL said:


> I run a similar nuc, but it functions as a 2-way with entrances on opposite ends. The box itself can hold 10 frame, but I slide in a divider and have 4 frames on either side.


I use something very similar for the extra mini frames of brood I have, after I set up the 4 ways. I use two follower boards in the middle with 4 frames on each side. Do the bees chew the foam?


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> Do the bees chew the foam?


 Mike, do you mean the last pic?
Those are paper restaurant boats filled with sugar, or "candy boards" for the minis. I can get 3 pounds of sugar to cover the 4 frames. The past two winters have been brutal, for us, and those little clusters will consume 6-9 pounds from Nov-March.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Mike and Joe, where are you getting your deep mini mating nuc frames from? 

BTW, the last photo at the bottom of this pdf shows clips being used that allow two half frames to fit end-to-end in a standard deep box. The clip is placed centrally over 2 adjacent frames and the two half frames rest on the clip.
http://www.michiganbees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Mini-Nucs_20150130.pdf


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

http://www.simpsonsbeesupply.com/ They make the nucs for me too.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

I still go back and forth over which I like better, the deeps or the mediums. The mediums are common among commercial queen producers and I see why in terms of resources, but the deeps have their merits too. Sometimes they get a little full towards the end of the season...


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Excellent. Thanks very much. I value my fingers too much to try to make them myself.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Mike and Joe, where are you getting your deep mini mating nuc frames from?
> 
> BTW, the last photo at the bottom of this pdf shows clips being used that allow two half frames to fit end-to-end in a standard deep box. The clip is placed centrally over 2 adjacent frames and the two half frames rest on the clip.
> http://www.michiganbees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Mini-Nucs_20150130.pdf


That's a nice article! You can buy a bit for the feeder lids. It may be a little more precise than cutting and sanding. I have a bunch of the reservoir feeders that double as dividers, but found I do not like hunting queens in them and SHB tend to like them. The feeder jars work well enough for me. The top and bottom of the nucs I use are the same piece, both are drilled for feeder jars. The only difference in the bottom has a rim for space and the entrance and screen over the "feeder jar" holes.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

JSL said:


> Mike, do you mean the last pic?


No, the second picture. Isn't that foam dividing the 2-way?


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> No, the second picture. Isn't that foam dividing the 2-way?


No, it is a wood divider. To get the spacing right, I went with 4 frames on each side rather than a tight 5 frames on each side. I need a little extra room to get a queen cage in for each nuc.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

I don't understand how a hive can have so much bearding like that and not swarm?


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

Do you think with our high temperatures here in Texas of upper 90's and low 100's that a mini mating nuc would be too small?


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

RichardsonTX said:


> Do you think with our high temperatures here in Texas of upper 90's and low 100's that a mini mating nuc would be too small?


We are about 50 miles SW of you & have used the mini-NUCs with good success in the heat (with afternoon shade) and over winter, with an entrance and top vent. The problem I had was with robbing, once a queen was removed and replaced with a queen cell. Have since experienced better luck with queen castles which have larger colony populations, and the added advantage of using (deep) frames that fit any deep hive body. SHB are more likely in any of the smaller colonies. HTH


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

Lburou said:


> We are about 50 miles SW of you & have used the mini-NUCs with good success in the heat (with afternoon shade) and over winter, with an entrance and top vent. The problem I had was with robbing, once a queen was removed and replaced with a queen cell. Have since experienced better luck with queen castles which have larger colony populations, and the added advantage of using (deep) frames that fit any deep hive body. SHB are more likely in any of the smaller colonies. HTH


Thanks for the info! So how did you start your first mini nucs? Did you just put in bees with a queen cell and frames of foundation or what? Do you have any pictures of your mini nucs?


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

hex0rz said:


> I don't understand how a hive can have so much bearding like that and not swarm?


I used to think that too. Some strains will swarm at the drop of a hat and others will not. It also depends on the time of year. Earlier in the season that wont work, but later in the season, swarming is minimal.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

RichardsonTX said:


> Do you think with our high temperatures here in Texas of upper 90's and low 100's that a mini mating nuc would be too small?


The medium style box I use is/was used extensively in your area. Find them some shade. I am not sure how long the smaller units will hold up once you get into the stress of summer.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

First I cut brood comb, on my table saw, into squares that fit exactly into the mini-frames. Fastened the combs into the frame with foundation support pins. After that, I placed the mini combs, in mating nuc boxes, on top of strong colonies. I thought the queen would just go up and lay in those combs. Not so. A few combs had brood, but most had nectar or pollen. I used that brood and started my breeding program, but it was slow going. Eventually, over a number of years, I expanded those first mating nucs into 500+ by wintering and splitting and wintering and splitting.

Then in the winter of 2011-2012, I lost the whole lot. Drought conditions limited brood rearing that Fall, and varroa wiped what clusters the bees were able to raise. That spring of 2012, I added 4 frame boxes with 8 mini combs...end to end...on top of wintered 4x4 nucs. I did this in late April. By May 10 it was obvious that the bees were packing the mini combs with pollen and nectar. I needed brood by the date my first cells were ready. So, I removed the top nuc box and placed the combs from the bottom nuc box into an empty nuc box. Then I added 8 mini-combs to the bottom box, end to end. Then I caught the queen and ran her onto those mini combs. Then added and excluder and then the two nuc boxes of brood and bees. Since the queens had to stay in the mini combs, she filled them with brood. 20 days later I made the first round of mating nucs, and over the next 12 days finished filling the rest of the 500 mating nucs. One note....I wish I had added another layer of 8 mini combs for the queen, as many of them started swarming by the time I finished breaking them up into 4-ways.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

As Mike wrote, getting the first comb drawn can be the challenge. That is why I like the standalone 10 frame mini boxes. I can place them on top of a regular colony as shown in the pic or manage them as a stand alone colony. They build up quickly in those little chimneys. A little large grapefruit size cluster in early spring will easily grow to fill 4-6 boxes by May. Sometimes I find myself adding 2 boxes at a time just to cool them down. 

I have a couple yards of the mini nuc towers and to make up queen nucs, I go early in the morning and load up however many towers I need to break down for nucs. To make up queen nucs, I set up however many queen nucs for the day and put in two drawn combs and then start breaking down the towers from the top. I divide up the honey then the brood until that tower is done. So each new queen nuc has 1 frame of brood, 1 frame of honey, 2 frames of drawn comb or foundation.

Keep in mind the volume of 40 medium half-length nuc frames is about 1 deep box with 10 frames


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

Michael Palmer, ..........I'm watching your presentation, Queen Rearing in the Sustainable Apiary, and even though I've watched it before, this time more of it is sinking with the info you provided in this thread. The presentation is packed with good info. 

Could you confirm something though? From what I'm seeing in this presentation, it looks like you identify each queen by a number and then keep records on her for criteria selection purposes. Then, based on those records you select your breeder queen for the coming season? Is that correct? Also, do you ever use a newly mated queen as a breeder queen? If so, how do you make the decision to do that without seeing her long term performance? When you select your breeder queens do you use them all season or just for a certain length of time?


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

If I may add a bit. I make simple little metal clips with ordinary pliers that allows one to place two 1/2 frames in between the full size traditional deep frames. The side frames support 2 or 4 depending on the width of the metal clip. This makes the mating nuc frames compatible with the traditional 10 frame, 5 frame nuc, or any box that has at least 3 spaces for frames. I use mostly medium 1/2 frames. The bees will lengthen the 1/2 frame with new comb when placed into the deep. This is easily cut off when the frame is needed back in the mating nuc. This makes it simple to place a 1/2 frame with a queen cell into a standard nuc or full box. 

This is not my invention. I read about the "clips" somewhere. My memory is diminishing year by year but if I run across the source I will post it on the forum.

I wish you well, LP


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

larrypeterson said:


> If I may add a bit. I make simple little metal clips with ordinary pliers that allows one to place two 1/2 frames in between the full size traditional deep frames. The side frames support 2 or 4 depending on the width of the metal clip. This makes the mating nuc frames compatible with the traditional 10 frame, 5 frame nuc, or any box that has at least 3 spaces for frames. I use mostly medium 1/2 frames. The bees will lengthen the 1/2 frame with new comb when placed into the deep. This is easily cut off when the frame is needed back in the mating nuc. This makes it simple to place a 1/2 frame with a queen cell into a standard nuc or full box.
> 
> This is not my invention. I read about the "clips" somewhere. My memory is diminishing year by year but if I run across the source I will post it on the forum.
> 
> I wish you well, LP


That was on the Michigan Beekeepers Association website. That's good info. Thanks for posting it.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

Most of the guys here in MS have given up on mini nucs because of hive beetles. I run 3 frame medium nucs. I build a duplex box that will hold 3 regular medium frames on each side. They stay strong to defend against hive beetles but not too big to find queens, most of the time. After first round I am usually pulling a frame of brood out of the ones with queens to keep them fron getting too strong. I run a 21 day cycle for simplicity. I run them from early March till Mid July, then shut them down. Not enough blooming in July and August to keep them going.

Johnny


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