# My Oxalic Acid Vaporizer



## RogerCrum

That is a nice big horse but can she run? What shortcomings of existing designs led you to this design? No criticism, just asking for your "elevator pitch". You do nice work.


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## virginiawolf

That is nice. I like things that are built well. Did you use real glass? I would imagine it will work really well from what I have seen other people doing on you tube and such. I wonder if someone has a screened bottom board if that throws off the fumigation. Will you make a video of this in use next?
Nice Job!!!


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## shadow-cw

Hi
Thank you for the kind words. 
Over the past couple of of talking to people and studying designs online I decided that I liked this design. Not saying that this one is any better than any other design. I like being able to see what's going on in the hive through the glass window. After testing it out I do think at some point I will cut the height of the box down some. I did notice after the OA is vaporized that I can remove the combustion chamber and use an unlit smoker to pump air into the hive pushing the vapors every where. 
It is real glass in the window though I suspect plexiglas would have worked fine. I am running screened bottom boards. My thinking was once the vapors start to cool the OA should start to recrystlize and fall. Hopefully coating everything through out the hive. I'll see if I can post a video. 
Thanks
Caleb


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## virginiawolf

Hi, Making it a bit shallower would line up with another video I saw but if it is working well than I wouldn't think it would matter that much. The unlit smoker Ideas is a great Idea for pushing the vapor through. From what I have heard the oxalic vapor works excellent. Ya have to watch out not to breathe it in. I have seen a few videos of this process but I would like to see your technique. Your box is the nicest one I have seen. Does the vapor kill the small hive beetles too?


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## BigGun

Could you give us some details on the 12 volt setup?


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## WWW

Beautiful job on this one shadow, I would like to learn more about your heat source and the 12 volt system as well......Bill


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## bluegrass

I have read that copper shouldn't be used because it off gasses when heated directly and may kill the bees.
I have no proof, just something to consider.


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## shadow-cw

Hi all,
I'll post some more pics and info on my 12V setup today. 
The OA vapor will take care of Varroa and Tracheal mites but doesn't take care of small hive beetles or wax moths. I wished it did but if the bees stay mite free and strong they can handle the shb and wax moths. 
Heated copper will off gas but the biggest amount of gas is oxygen. The rest is inert gas. Brass and aluminum should be fine too. I would stay away from black iron and galVanized pipe as they do release some bad gas when heated. 
Thanks,
Caleb


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## Lburou

Shadow, is there a particular reason you used tig a welder?


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## camero7

shadow-cw said:


> Hi all,
> 
> The OA vapor will take care of Varroa and Tracheal mites but doesn't take care of small hive beetles or wax moths.
> Caleb


My understanding is the OA vapor will not kill Tracheal mites.


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## shadow-cw

More pics and info.
The research I have done by talking to people, everyone tells me that OA will kill varroa and tracheal mites. Right now I can not say for 100% sure that it will.

I tig welded my joints basicaly because I could. A high temp solder or braze should work fine as long as the joint can take 300-315*F of heat. This is the temp that OA vaporizes. Tig welding the joints I know for certain that they will hold. Please disreguard the huge blob of filler material you can see in one of my welds. It's ugly but will hold just fine, I should have ground it down to help the looks.

In the bottom pic is my 12V set-up. It just an old extention cord, two battery clamps, a piece of 1" aluminum, wire ring connectors, two set screws and a glow plug. I used a Champion CH69 glow plug but an Autolite 1104 will work too. One end of the aluminum is threaded for the 1/2" pipe and bored for a combustion chamber to put the OA in. The other end is bored to accept the glow plug. I turned the threads off the glow plug and a set screw holds it in place. This way I dont ever have to worry about the threads gallding in the aluminum. Hot wire hooked to the glow plug and a ground wire hooked to the body of the device.


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## mmmooretx

Do you put the OA directly in the glow plug? Just curious on the residual material build up.
Thanks, interesting idea, although I kind of like the FBM style where you do not have to lift the hive (I do not like the $175 price).


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## shadow-cw

The aluminum piece is not bored all the way through. There is about 3/8" of aluminum between the combustion chamber where the OA goes and the glow plug. OA never touches the glow plug. The OA vaporizes pretty clean with very little residue. 

I really don't know what it would cost to build this set-up as I built it out of stuff I already had around my shop but I would guess a lot cheaper than $175. I have a small machine shop with different welders, torches, a lathe and mill so I can build a lot of things myself. A vaporizer to use with a propane torch can be built for a few bucks.


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## mmmooretx

shadow-cw said:


> The aluminum piece is not bored all the way through. There is about 3/8" of aluminum between the combustion chamber where the OA goes and the glow plug. OA never touches the glow plug. The OA vaporizes pretty clean with very little residue.
> 
> I really don't know what it would cost to build this set-up as I built it out of stuff I already had around my shop but I would guess a lot cheaper than $175. I have a small machine shop with different welders, torches, a lathe and mill so I can build a lot of things myself. A vaporizer to use with a propane torch can be built for a few bucks.


Very interesting, I may have to look into this. I have the Country Rubes SBB with the oil tray in right now and they have a port on the back of the base (for the smoker) I may be able to put the vaporized OA in through. How much do you use in a regular dose? 1 tsp, 1/2 tsp. etc. I think this implementation will be much more cost effective. Thanks for sharing!

Update I have found both plugs mentioned $10-15 and the OA $10 (wood bleach which works fine per Mike Bush) on Amazon.


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## shadow-cw

Everything I have read or been told says 1 gram of OA per deep. I use a 3/8" copper pipe cap and a 1/2" copper pipe cap. Both have a short piece of stainless steel tig rod soldered to them for a handle. The 3/8" cap will hold nearly exactly 1 gram and the 1/2" cap will hold 2.2 grams. From my research you would have to really try to overdose a hive, something like 8 grams per deep for an overdose. 

I bought my OA on EBay. $12 for two pound. That much should last for years.


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## WWW

Thanks Shadow for the detailed info, I have a stainless steel tube and propane torch that I have been using to vaporize on top of the hives but I have been wanting something that I could place into the entrance which has a controlled heat and this might just be the ticket.....Bill


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## shadow-cw

I forgot to mention earlier. 300-315*F is the temp you want to shoot for. Too hot and the OA will burn instead of vaporizing. Burning OA will produce CO2 and water vapor which will not kill the mites.


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## mmmooretx

shadow-cw said:


> I forgot to mention earlier. 300-315*F is the temp you want to shoot for. Too hot and the OA will burn instead of vaporizing. Burning OA will produce CO2 and water vapor which will not kill the mites.


Did you build in a temperature controller? If so will share it? Thanks again!


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## shadow-cw

I don't have a temperature controller. Everyone tells me to just hook it up to a 12v battery for 45-60 seconds. I'm going to test it with a thermal imaging camera when I get a chance to see exactly how many seconds it takes.


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## shadow-cw

Here's a pic of the dippers I made to measure the OA.


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## Axtmann

Use a rust free steel pipe or aluminium and not copper. If you're not cleaning you copper pipe very careful you will have copper acetate in your next treatment. This is very healthy when the fumes come in contact with your honey. 
Evaporate from the bottom, oxalic acid vapour goes up in the air and not down. After the treatment you will have microscopic fine acid drops in you hive and not crystals. That's because of the humidity in the hive. If mites come in contact with this moistures it kill the mites. The vapour does not kill tracheal mites


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## Mr.Beeman

I think you need another "field tester" for your vaporizer set up Shadow...... let me know when you are ready for my address! lol


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## shadow-cw

Lol. If I ever get this thing completly figured out I may have to send out a few test models Mr.Beeman.

Thanks for the info Axtmann. I didn't know about the copper and acid mix would make copper acetate. I do know that plain black iron or galvinized pipe would be a no-no. Here what info I do have:
Aluminum melts at 1220*F and vaporizes at 4566*F. Well above the 300-315*F to vaporize OA. At low temperatures aluminum produces no toxic gases.
Stainless steel since it's an alloy melts at a broad temperature, depending on the specific alloy content. Stainless steel, 304 316 & 416, should remain inert below 800*F and produce no toxic gas. Oxalic acid is used to clean stainless steel.
Looks like I'm gonna have to rebuild with SS or AL.


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## shadow-cw

I got a few numbers today on my 12V set up. 
Using the 12V battery on my John Deere Gator, 230 cranking amps. 
Temperature here today was 84*F. 
15 sec- 95*F
30 sec- 115*F
45 sec- 152*F
1 min- 195*F
1:15- 225*F
1:30- 265*F
1:45- 300*F
2:00- 328*F
Should do better with a larger battery with 700-800 cranking amps.


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## BigGun

How are you measuring the temps?


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## shadow-cw

Fluke meter with a temp probe in the combustion chamber.


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## BigGun

Same way that I've been using with the 110 rig I've been working on.


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## RogerCrum

You should see the same temps over time regardless of the cranking amp size of 12 volt battery connected. The results should be fine like you have it as all oxalic acid should sublimate in 3 minutes.


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## shadow-cw

BigGun said:


> Same way that I've been using with the 110 rig I've been working on.


Cool. What are you using for a heating element?




RogerCrum said:


> You should see the same temps over time regardless of the cranking amp size of 12 volt battery connected. The results should be fine like you have it as all oxalic acid should sublimate in 3 minutes.


Thanks for the info. I couldn't remember if the cranking amps or the cold cranking amps would make a difference. I'll do the test again later and post the results.


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## BigGun

shadow-cw said:


> Cool. What are you using for a heating element?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info. I couldn't remember if the cranking amps or the cold cranking amps would make a difference. I'll do the test again later and post the results.


Currently a clothes iron. But it has an 1100 watt element and not much of a thermostat. It heats up quick and goes way over temp before I can do much. I'm trying to convince the wife to get a new flat iron so can try its heating element. Might work better. I ordered a glow plug of the right type and waiting for it to arrive. I'm going to build one like the Varrox. I think that's what it's called.


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## mmmooretx

ShadowCW,
I just saw one of my bees with deformed wings so I am looking at doing an implementation using your glow plug system. However I hope to find some fittings to interface to some 1/2" SS tubing I have for an applicator. Once I buy one of the two glow plugs you mentioned I will start the search for interfacing SS hardware (not sure what size or pitch the threads are on the glow plug yet).
Anyway I just finished building four of the D. Coats NUCs that are built from 1/2" plywood and do not have an SBB screened bottom. So my question is when you do the vaporized OA treatment does it kill the mites or just make them loose their grip temporarily. My concern is whether the mites that have fallen to the solid wood floor of the NUC will recover and crawl back up or not. 
Thanks for the idea, time and support.


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## BEES4U

That's a nice set up!
Caution:
1. The oxalic acid will sublime when heated and if you wait for 10 minutes it will precipitate as a very small crystal.
2. Do not pull the unit off the hive to soon because you will expose your lungs to the micro crystals!
Good luck,


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## shadow-cw

mmmooretx said:


> ShadowCW,
> I just saw one of my bees with deformed wings so I am looking at doing an implementation using your glow plug system. However I hope to find some fittings to interface to some 1/2" SS tubing I have for an applicator. Once I buy one of the two glow plugs you mentioned I will start the search for interfacing SS hardware (not sure what size or pitch the threads are on the glow plug yet).
> Anyway I just finished building four of the D. Coats NUCs that are built from 1/2" plywood and do not have an SBB screened bottom. So my question is when you do the vaporized OA treatment does it kill the mites or just make them loose their grip temporarily. My concern is whether the mites that have fallen to the solid wood floor of the NUC will recover and crawl back up or not.
> Thanks for the idea, time and support.


Hi,
The OA will kill the mites. There are several debates as to how it kills them. Some say it burns their feet and mouths where they can not eat or crawl. Just remember it does not penetrate the capped brood so several treatments must be applied.
The threads on the glow plugs, Champion CH69 and Autolite 1104, are 12mm X 1.25 metric. to simplify the set-up I just turned the threads off and fasten it with a set screw. I'm machining another set up from stainless steel and aluminum. I'll post pics when I have it finished this week. Would love to see what you build also.




BEES4U said:


> That's a nice set up!
> Caution:
> 1. The oxalic acid will sublime when heated and if you wait for 10 minutes it will precipitate as a very small crystal.
> 2. Do not pull the unit off the hive to soon because you will expose your lungs to the micro crystals!
> Good luck,


Good advice.
Thanks!


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## Fuzzy

"and if you wait for 10 minutes it will precipitate as a very small crystal"

It is my belief that the vapor is hydrophyllic. The bees keep the interior of the hive at a very high moisture content due to evaporation and respiration. The vapor hits the moisture and is readily absorbed. This drastically changes the PH of the moisture in the hive to a highly acid condition.

The bees will change out the air in the hive as soon as you open it up. They will set up a fan and move the old air out until the inside air meets their "specs".
So, as long as the hive components are damp, there will be no crystals precipitating. The surfaces will have a low PH but can'[t tell for how long. 

Fuzzy


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## mmmooretx

shadow-cw said:


> Hi,
> The OA will kill the mites. There are several debates as to how it kills them. Some say it burns their feet and mouths where they can not eat or crawl. Just remember it does not penetrate the capped brood so several treatments must be applied.
> The threads on the glow plugs, Champion CH69 and Autolite 1104, are 12mm X 1.25 metric. to simplify the set-up I just turned the threads off and fasten it with a set screw. I'm machining another set up from stainless steel and aluminum. I'll post pics when I have it finished this week. Would love to see what you build also.ENDQUOTE]
> 
> I ordered my unit today and ill have it tomorrow, right at $10, now onto the hardware search. Would you happen to know how much current it draws? I can use my Honda EU2000i generator battery charger port or a 12mah battery I use in my kayak depending on needed current for 2 minutes. If I do not need to buy anything else that would be nice.
> Thanks again for all of your support.


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## shadow-cw

From what I have read 10-12 amps but that's in a engine and controlled by a glow plug relay. Out in the open just straight wired I really have no idea but I'll see if I can figure out how to check it.


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## mmmooretx

shadow-cw said:


> From what I have read 10-12 amps but that's in a engine and controlled by a glow plug relay. Out in the open just straight wired I really have no idea but I'll see if I can figure out how to check it.


I will have the plug tomorrow, and if they don't have it listed I can measure the resistance and use Ohms law to calculate. However was the 10-12 amps for all 6 or 8 plugs? With 8 plugs at 12 amps that is nearly 100 amps without the starter. If it is 1-2 amps per plug my 12 ah battery can deal with it for the 2 needed minutes per hive I think. Oh well just thinking out loud, thanks again for the great idea.


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## WWW

I have been following this thread with a particular interest, I plan on building one of these units this winter but for now I was wondering if a battery charger would work as an energy source, set on 12 volt or even 6 volts perhaps?


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## shadow-cw

mmmooretx said:


> I will have the plug tomorrow, and if they don't have it listed I can measure the resistance and use Ohms law to calculate. However was the 10-12 amps for all 6 or 8 plugs? With 8 plugs at 12 amps that is nearly 100 amps without the starter. If it is 1-2 amps per plug my 12 ah battery can deal with it for the 2 needed minutes per hive I think. Oh well just thinking out loud, thanks again for the great idea.


10-12 amps per plug is what i read but it said that the plugs draw the highest amperage at the start then taper off. I don't know if the plugs do that own there own or is the glow plug relay steps down the amperage. The test I run was with a small 12V battery, I'm going to do the test again with a regular sized battery to see if the 2 minutes to get up to temperature still hold true. Let us know what you find out and I'll test mine and post the results in a day or two, I nearly have my new one built.



WWW said:


> I have been following this thread with a particular interest, I plan on building one of these units this winter but for now I was wondering if a battery charger would work as an energy source, set on 12 volt or even 6 volts perhaps?


I have saw a vaporizer being demonstrated using a 12 volt battery charger and it worked just fine.


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## mmmooretx

WWW said:


> I have been following this thread with a particular interest, I plan on building one of these units this winter but for now I was wondering if a battery charger would work as an energy source, set on 12 volt or even 6 volts perhaps?


A battery charger with a start function yes, a trickle charger no. Basically you need to look at the chargers output in amps. Usually it will be the larger ones that say quick charge or something like that.

shadow-cw,
OK I will have to think on that one for my implementation. Thanks again for your time and support. I'll probably post something tonight on what I learn. Once I figure out my hardware I will need to decide on a battery or charger since my hives are in my back yard.


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## Daniel Y

camero7 said:


> My understanding is the OA vapor will not kill Tracheal mites.


I have seen it mentioned twice now that it does, many places it is claimed only to deal with Varroa. I can't seem to get the tracheal mite claim confirmed. Yet. I sure hope it is true because I am in the process of making one of these foggers. I like the window. I was trying to figure out how to make a tray out of 2" aluminum rod to slide into the entrance. I like this one better. Thanks for sharing it. An extra thanks for the details in how it is wired.


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## crofter

Some chargers will not deliver any current unless they sense a load of proper polarity. Some glow plugs must be used with their controller or will burn out allmost immediately. I use VW plugs direct on 12 volts and have left them on overnight (not intentionally) and they survive. Mine draw 12 amps each. Best to source a plug type you know will work with direct battery voltage.


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## mmmooretx

OK I got my Autolite 1104 today and it measures 0.8 ohms which calculates to 15 amps at 12 vdc, or 17.5 amps at 13.8 vdc. I have checked and if I grind the threads off and it will slip inside some 1/2" SS 304 tubing I have. If I grind 2 short splits in the tubing, no longer than the the threads on the glow plug, wrap the ex-thread area with aluminum foil for a seal, with some plumbers tape for handle attachment and a hose clamp, I think I will have it. Now if the Autolite 1104 unit does not need a controller to keep it from burning out I will have an OA vaporizer soon. I have a 30 amp power supply I can use that also has a current limiter in it.


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## WWW

That is so coooool Mike, please keep us updated on your progress.


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## crofter

mmmooretx, that resistance measured cold, will increase considerably as the element heats so the current draw will drop. I am quite sure you will be good to go! I spliced a deep socket onto a 1/4 tube to be able to reach and screw the glo plug into the barrel of mine. Your way is a lot easier to install and wire. Haven't used mine yet but will in November.


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## mmmooretx

I am ready to assemble mine and will do a pictures or a video. I had flash on an easier way to do it this morning than what I did, but will keep what I did. If I got a 12 X 1.25 tap I could have screwed the glow plug directly into the 1/2" 304 SS tubing!


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## shadow-cw

Cool guys, can' wait to see what everyone builds. Hopefully I can post some pics of my new vaporizer set-up tonight. I ran a few more tests on my 12v set-up and here are some numbers:
12V Interstate full sized battery. 575 cold cranking amps and 720 cranking amps.
12.8V in the battery to start
Air Temp was 70*F
15 sec- 75*F
30 sec- 95*F
45 sec- 127*F
1:00- 164*F
1:15- 200*F
1:30- 238*F
1:45- 277*F
2:00- 315*F
At two minute mark I unpluged it from the battery but the aluminum was still transfering the heat to the combustion chamber. 2:20 the temp hit 365*F. So I'm thinking on my unit I need to unplug around the 1:40 mark to keep from burning the OA. The temperature results were pretty much the same as using the small 12v battery on my John Deere Gator.
12.5V in the battery at the end of the test.
Amp draw was 13.8 at the start and dropped to 11.8 at the 15 second mark.


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## mmmooretx

Great data thanks for sharing. I need to find some OA locally if I can so I can play too. :-D


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## shadow-cw

Ok, I finally have some pics of my new set-up.
Here's the vaporizer assembled and ready for 12v. Aluminum and stainless steel construction. Everything threads together so I can disassemble it for cleaning.








Here it is hooked up for 12v. I have a threaded insert on my box so I can easily remove the vaporizer.









And here it is setup for use with a propane torch to heat the OA.








Later on I still have to make a smaller diameter and longer length nozzle so I can use the vaporizer on my nuc boxes. A Nuc Nozzle, lol.


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## mmmooretx

Very nice work!


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## WWW

Sweet setup shadow and excellent craftsmanship , I look forward to your first test run.


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## Daniel Y

Shadow, A couple of questions.
How much clearance is any is between the glow plug element and the aluminum rod?
Did you take into consideration expansion inside the rod when the element heats up or do you want this chamber air tight? 
I have the glow plug and aluminum rod and was going to start building one today. But thinking it through I was not sure just what size drill bit to use for boring the portion of the hole for the element to fit into.

Final question. What is a good source for the OA?


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## shadow-cw

Daniel Y said:


> Shadow, A couple of questions.
> How much clearance is any is between the glow plug element and the aluminum rod?
> Did you take into consideration expansion inside the rod when the element heats up or do you want this chamber air tight?
> I have the glow plug and aluminum rod and was going to start building one today. But thinking it through I was not sure just what size drill bit to use for boring the portion of the hole for the element to fit into.
> 
> Final question. What is a good source for the OA?


Hi Daniel,
The tip of the glow plug will expand some when heated. Hook it up and heat it outside the aluminum rod to start. When the plug cools off take some measurements. I didn't want the tip to touch the aluminum but wanted it close to transfer more heat to the aluminum. I did think of air pressure inside the tip chamber, this was another reason I turned the threads off the plug and used a set screw. Gives it just alittle bit of air gap. I have been thinking on some sort of liquid heat transfer system but have not go very deep into it yet. Water will tranfer heat 10X fast/better than air but there might be a pressure issue to deal with.
OA can be found at most local hardware stores. Sold in the paint section as wood bleach. I bought mine on ebay, $12 shipped for 2 pounds.
Hope this helps,
Caleb


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## Daniel Y

One of the more sought after features I have seen mentioned is built in air movement. This video is the example I have seen most commented about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NoYE2FA6_U&feature=player_embedded

I see your glow plug Acid chamber design is extremely adaptable to many other configurations.

I have seen comments of pipe being permanently installed in hive bodies where the vaporizer can then simply be fit and the acid treatment administered. the pipe is then capped until needed again. Copper or brass pipe was suggested in that design as well. Possibly aluminum tubing would be better.

On the heat transfer issue. My first thought was of a grease that is applied to the back of certain integrated circuits that generate excessive heat. the grease makes the transfer of heat to a metal plate higher so the circuit is protected. I am not sure of what the temperature ranges for that specific grease is but I do know such products exist.

Speaking of heat transfer. Do you have any measurements on the cool down of the chamber after the acid has been vaporized. Everything I have seen speaks of the heat up and time it takes to vaporize the acid but I never see where the time to cool down is added.


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## shadow-cw

The heat transfer grease may be a good idea. I'll have to do some research on it. I know some of my high speed flashlights have thermal grease in them. 
Read through a couple of pass posts. I wouldn't reccomend brass or copper for the vaporizers. There is a chance of toxic gasses in those two metals. 
Everyone has told me to leave the hive closed up for 10 minutes after vaporizing the OA. The aluminum dissipates the heat very fast. It just barely warm to the touch after 10 minutes. 
Also I think it would be best to be able to clean the vaporizer from time to time. 
A note on air flow too. Once the vapors enter the hive the bees will fan it through out the hive trying to remove it.


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## mmmooretx

I think I would use Anti-Seize to prevent thread galling, especially if you are mating SS & Aluminium.


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## shadow-cw

mmmooretx said:


> I think I would use Anti-Seize to prevent thread galling, especially if you are mating SS & Aluminium.


Maybe a good idea but does anyone know is Anti-seize off gasses when heated?


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## Daniel Y

Shadow I can't say about the anti seize and gassing. But would it matter? The threads for the glow plug at least are outside the chamber. As for off gasing of copper or brass. I have never heard a concern about it for plumbers that sweat copper all day long. often in large volumes in confined spaces. I have seen the concern that the introduction of Oxalic Acid changes the chemistry though. At the very least a concern.
I do beleive the forced movement of the vapors is more of a perception thing to the beekeeper than a necessity. But people are attracted to what they are attracted to. Vapors are goign to pretty much dissipate no matter what. But this is not something the average person is goign to know about or rely on. that it blows around just carries a level of comfort to it. I am pretty thrilled with the design as it is.


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## Radar

Glow plugs are pretty robust, I have made 2 vaporizers and have used them on about 40 hives per year for 6 years now, and I have the tip protruding into the crystals with no problems.

The down side is the battery it will only do about 10-12 hives per charge. I know a bigger battery would do more but they are heavy.


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## shadow-cw

Radar said:


> Glow plugs are pretty robust, I have made 2 vaporizers and have used them on about 40 hives per year for 6 years now, and I have the tip protruding into the crystals with no problems.
> 
> The down side is the battery it will only do about 10-12 hives per charge. I know a bigger battery would do more but they are heavy.



I wondered if the tip touching the OA would hurt anything. I was actually going to experiment with that next week. It should cut down the times frames I have posted as it should vaporize a lot faster.


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## shadow-cw

Daniel Y said:


> Shadow I can't say about the anti seize and gassing. But would it matter? The threads for the glow plug at least are outside the chamber. As for off gasing of copper or brass. I have never heard a concern about it for plumbers that sweat copper all day long. often in large volumes in confined spaces. I have seen the concern that the introduction of Oxalic Acid changes the chemistry though. At the very least a concern.
> I do beleive the forced movement of the vapors is more of a perception thing to the beekeeper than a necessity. But people are attracted to what they are attracted to. Vapors are goign to pretty much dissipate no matter what. But this is not something the average person is goign to know about or rely on. that it blows around just carries a level of comfort to it. I am pretty thrilled with the design as it is.


The off gassing of anything I think would be a concern. I'm just saying to please be careful. Some stuff in very small amounts can cause long term damage.


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## Daniel Y

Regardless of reactivity, Copper fittings are out due to price. I can actually get SS fittings at a lower or at least equal price.

The main cost with SS fitting is the Flange at $27.00 for a threaded flange. Any suggestions for the connection from the pipe to the box would be appreciated.

Otherwise I am looking at anywhere from a 1 1/4 inch nipple and 45 degree elbow down to the same in 3/4 inch. Price for the set ranging from $17.03 down to $9.01.
As a comparison a single 45 degree elbow in copper (1 1/4 inch is about $10.00) 3/4 inch is not a lot cheaper.

I priced such large fitting because the Aluminum rod I am starting with is 1 1/4 inch diameter but that is a bit overkill for the fittings.

I am looking for other solutions, preferable lower cost for the connection to the box.

Also the 45 degree elbow is threaded at both ends. I can thread the aluminum rod but would rather have this be a slip fitting for ease in removing and reloading. even if it is a slip fitting with a thumb screw as a set screw for added holding power. If nothing else I will turn and thread a piece from aluminum rod. I much prefer to come up with a design that is of the shelf parts so that anyone even without a shop can repeat it. Except for the glow plug / vaporizing chamber.

By far the big cost with these parts would be the flange. I was lookign for a bulk head adapter but am not making much ground there, plus the costs are still coming in fairly high.

Anyway so far my parts woudl run between $55.37 to $36.01 all stainless steel not including the aluminum chamber or shipping. That heats the tar out of $175 I have heard mentioned for other systems. Still let me know what you all think of that sort of cost. With a little more effort I think we can put a dent in that cost with a solution to the SS flange. I am looking for a brass flange since at this point the brass will not be exposed to the acid vapor. but am not having a lot of luck so far. 

One solution to the $27.00 flange is a $3 steel one. Since the SS nipple threads inside this flange it is not likely to be exposed to the acid vapor. In the event a portion of it is that can be coated with something like JB Weld or steel putty as long as those products woudl not create gases of their own.


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## crofter

I would suggest keeping the mass of your components as low as possible. The more cold metal the more heat it takes to get above the vapor poiint and the more re crystalization as the gas leaves the heat source. 
As for the antiseize compound, there may be a bit of initial off gassing as the liquid component evaporates but the remainder is going to stay pretty much in place. That is what it is made to do and is slathered around all nuts, bolts, threads etc in boiler rooms around the world. It did years ago have a lot of lead powder in it but anything modern is pretty innocuous I think. If you want just use teflon joint tape. The oxalic vapor though is a whole 'nother beast! Just a mere wisp inhaled and you will be clearing your throat for a day or two.


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## Daniel Y

crofter, good point about the mass of the chamber and components. I am actually looking for more mass in the vaporizing chamber for the exact reason of it being a heat sink. This also causes it to remain hotter to handle longer. I do have an idea of how to solve that. keep the chamber warm but make it touchable.

As for the rest of the components they will be a 3/4 inch 45 degree elbow the same size as a galvanized pipe would be and a 1 1/2 inch length of 3/4 inch pipe. I am not sure the distance can be reduce much more than that unless the chamber itself passes through the wall. I have actually thought up a design that will work that way as well and may build it later today.

Basically it is a section of 2 inch diameter aluminum rod that fits through a hole in the box. and slides in and out like a drawer. The pocket for the acid will be a hole drilled in the side of the rod. There will be a stop at each end of the rod to prevent it from being pulled completely out or pushed to far in. The glow plug can be inserted so that it is directly under this pocket. Overall mass from glow plug to pocket of acid would be very small. And mass from vaporized acid to the air of the hive woudl be nothing. at most the acid sets in a pocket that is maybe one half to three quarters of an inch deep. think of the bowl of a smoking pipe with the acid setting in it waiting to be heated. If it works out that the glow plug can be in direct contact with the acid then there is really no mass between the glow plug and the interior of the hive. Faster vaporization since the heat is applied directly to the powder and the chamber itself does not have to be heated.


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## shadow-cw

You all are thinking up some great ideas. Please post some pics when you get them finished. I ordered some stainless steel tubing last night to make my nuc entrance nozzle. I'll post some pics when I have it finished.


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## crofter

The tip of the glow plug is very corrosion resistant but not sure about specifically to Oxalic. Should be at least equal to stainless steel. That said, it may not be the best practice to have that high a temperature immediately on the oxalic. Something about it flashing to formic and CO and then not able to sublime to the fine oxalic crystal form you want deposited in the hive. Dont make too dinky of holes to charge your furnace; the oxalic powder looks nice and free flowing when you open a new container but I think it gets pretty crumby and lumpy with exposure. A glo plug is only putting out about 125 watts so you have to limit the heat loss where not needed. A couple of layers of glass cloth and a blanket of aluminum foil dont take up too much room but will slow cool down too if you want to do a series.


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## shadow-cw

crofter said:


> The tip of the glow plug is very corrosion resistant but not sure about specifically to Oxalic. Should be at least equal to stainless steel. That said, it may not be the best practice to have that high a temperature immediately on the oxalic. Something about it flashing to formic and CO and then not able to sublime to the fine oxalic crystal form you want deposited in the hive. Dont make too dinky of holes to charge your furnace; the oxalic powder looks nice and free flowing when you open a new container but I think it gets pretty crumby and lumpy with exposure. A glo plug is only putting out about 125 watts so you have to limit the heat loss where not needed. A couple of layers of glass cloth and a blanket of aluminum foil dont take up too much room but will slow cool down too if you want to do a series.


Great info. The tips on most glow plugs are made from Inconel. Do a search on Inconel and you will find that is some pretty tough stuff.


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## WWW

In my experience with a crack pipe and how quickly the OA goes from vapor to CO2/water with only a slight increase of heat I believe that the OA directly contacting the glow plug should be avoided. Ideally I feel the chamber needs to be of enough mass that the OA is brought up to heat in a slower controlled manor and the reservoir should be able to hold this heat until all the OA is vaporized. It is very easy to take the OA into the CO2/water stage and a person can be unaware that this has happened rendering your treatment ineffective. That being said the delivery pipe should also be as short as possible to avoid it cooling too fast and the vapor crystallizing in this delivery pipe. The mass of metal needed to make this glow plug work may work against being able to do multiple hives quickly because of the cooling down time between hives unless the unit can be submerged in water.


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## Daniel Y

I have been thinking this exposed tip as well as the overheating issue over for a couple of days. So far here is my main thought. Not arguing just presenting a possibility based upon my knowledge of other materials. The tip of a glow plug is exposed to diesel fuel and any other additives of that, fuel treatments etc. IT is also exposed in an inclosed high pressure chamber. One case to show it can tolerate exposure but it also may be in part due to the environment in which it is exposed.

As for the overheateg. The OA reaches the temperature at which it will vaporize. it then vaporizes and will remove itself from the heat source. There is a very strong case that when free to vaporize it will do so eliminating any concern that ti woudl be overheated. In another example of this water will boil into steam, in in other words vapor. under open conditions the steam will not ever get hotter as it removes itself from the heat source. the only way to get steam hotter than that is to trap it in a chamber. Water in fact can be gotten far above it's boiling point without boiling if ti is put under pressure. Again it is contained. So although OA can be gotten to temperatures that will react in other ways than vaporizing. I would want to know far more about the exact conditions under which this can happen. I have a strong suspicion it cannot happen while simply exposed to the open air. iN open air the OA will have vaporized and been gone long before the element could reach to high of a temperature. Even if all of this is measure in milli seconds of time frame. the Acid will vaporize at the temperature in which it vaporizes unless it is contained in order to be exposed to temperatures higher than that. there is no concern how it will react to higher temperatures than that.

In addition there are already some designs that are demonstrated to work. At most the ideas being discussed here are alterations of those designs.

Mass is a trade off. Retained heat means the next batch is vaporized with less energy. it also means more heat retained making the unit to hot to handle. I have been toying with ideas on how to keep the heat only where it si wanted. glass cloth to insulate fro example. but to insulate just a small pocket of a chamber that holds the acid. this you have quick heating of a very small mass as well as the quick cooling of that same small mass. The heat from the glow plug only has one way to go in effect. and that is into the cup and as a result into the OA.

Anyway back to the real world.

Do to a rocky start (to many projects at once) I have finally ordered the Stainless Stell pipe fittings. Total Cost $14.36 with shipping from buyfittingsonline.com

I got 
1- 3/4 inch nipple NPT
1- 3/4 inch 45 degree Elbow NPT

I will be machining an adapter to fit the Elbow and the 1 1/4 inch diameter Aluminum rod that I will make the vapor chamber out of.

I will continue to look for a way to make one of these entirely out of off the shelf parts.

I also ordered a 2 lb bottle of OA on E-bay for $12.50 including shipping.

Still to get is a 2/4 inch galvanized pipe flange for attaching the pipe to the side of the box. I estimate this to cost about $3.00. MY daughter was going by the hardware store today so hopefully she found one.

So for now I have some waiting for orders to arrive as well as some metal turning and drilling to do. I will attempt to keep this as simple as possible for those with at least limited shop availability.


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## shadow-cw

Good info Daniel. Sound reasonable. The only thing I can think of that might make a small difference is OA is a compound, H2C2O4. Each one of those elements has a different vaporization temp but Like you said I think it will be measured in miliseconds. Can't wait to see what you build.

I did find this info on OA: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-heat-vaporization-and-other-methods-part-2-of-2-parts/

Also I nearly have my smaller nuc nozzle finished. Just have to figure out the proper length. It's 3/8" stainless steel tube, press fitted in to a piece of aluminum thats threaded to fit my 1/2" pipe setup. As you can see in the pic I took some mass out of my 12v combustion chamber to help it heat faster. Just have to test it out. 








I had a little free time today so I carved a Maori Fish Hook out of a piece of deer antler. Now if I can just figure out how to carve a HoneyBee.


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## Daniel Y

Thanks Shadow, I have been wondering about the mass of the chamber myself. It makes since to me that smaller is better both for heating up and cooling down.

The smallest aluminum rod I had laying around was 1.25 inch diameter.as it turns out I cannot mount this on my metal lathe (it is a mini 7X12) due to it holding only up to a 1 inch diameter piece. Grrrrr.

I drilled the chamber on my drill press. The glow plug fits just fine but the hole did not come out centered. I will look for a smaller piece of rod that will fit my lathe and make a new one in the future.

Interesting article. Several points caught my attention. One being that the mite kill according to his chart is nearly identical at 1.4 gram dosage as it is at 2.8. Sort of makes me wonder just how little of a dose is enough. It is a great example of showing how if enough is good more is not better.

I did pay attention to the portion about the Acid vaporizing or decomposing. It does clearly show there is a danger of decomposing the OA rather than vaporizing it by applying heat to quickly. What it does not include is how much is to much heat and in what time period.

In part due to other conversations including private ones with others. I am thinking the problem results from applying the OA to a surface or chamber that has not been allowed to cool adequately. Otherwise some of the vaporizers I have seen seem to vaporize almost immediately.

At any rate heating to quickly is definitely a concern in these designs.

I like the fish hook. The last thing I carved was quite a while back. it was a guitar pick from Mother of Pearl. I made it for a friend who was just starting to learn to play.


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## crofter

I made up a vaporizer yesterday. I used two glow plugs so they sit either side of the chamber which is a piece of 1/2 stainless pipe about an inch and a half long with the ends closed and hole cut in the top to fill. Crude but I wanted to observe the process. I note that there is quick recrystalization on parts that are not up to temperature. Looks like hoar frost. After a while as the chamber heats, it does go off into the air. I dont think a length of pipe leading into the hive will give a dependably measured delivery. The propane heated crack pipe shows the same thing unless you heat up the discharge pipe before you heat the area with the powder. It takes a bit of fiddling to get good boil off without having it flash. It is not nice to be that up close and personal with oxalic vapor, so the electric is more user friendly. What I stuck together is not slim enough to go through a standard entrance. In a way I dont want the glow plug exposed to potentially ignite wax inside a hive as they certainly glow a bright yellow for about an inch long. Still meditating!


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## Daniel Y

I finished my chamber glow plug assembly as well as the connection to the box yesterday and today. I am not completely happy with it due to having to resort to some copper fittings. Without the ability to reduce the aluminum rod to be threaded to fit the SS elbow I had to find a slip fitting for the 1 1/4 inch rod. Three fittings total and nearly $30. I am not happy with the cost either.

I can fix the entire problem with using 1 inch aluminum rod in the future which then can be threaded to fit the ss pipe fittings. For now this will work for testing etc. To use it on my hives I will coat the inner surfaces of the copper fittings with epoxy such as JB weld.

Total cost of the assembly is now.

Glow Plug $10.76
1 1/4 inch to 1 inch reducing coupling $6.27
1 inch to 3/4 inch bushing $5.69
3/4 inch slip to 3/4 inch male pipe thread adapter $2.44
2.5 inch piece of 3/4 inch copper pipe. $0.80 ( I had to buy 2 feet of pipe for $7.69 for only 2.5 inches)
3/8 inch copper cap to make a measuring scoop $1.38 including tax
3/4 inch galvanized pipe flange $8.00
3/4 in SS 45 degree elbow $5.98
3/4 inch 1 3/8 inch ss nipple $3.03
Shipping $5.35
Total $49.70

Add the cost of the acid and the total is 62.20. Still more than $100 cheaper than buying one ready made.

Replacing the aluminum rod I am using with 3 inches of 1 inch aluminum rod would be about $2.50 in aluminum and eliminate nearly $20 in copper pieces. This also keeps the cost at around the $45 I consider acceptable. It does require the ability to thread the aluminum Rod to fit the Elbow. Another solution woudl be to use 3/4 inch aluminum rod and a 3/4 male thread to 3/4 inch slip adapter. This dos keep a small section of the pipe being copper though. This might be a better solution for that that need parts that just hook together though. I believe something reliable and safe can be found to coat the copper with making it a non issue.

So now I am down to the power supply. I have a battery charger but it is a smart charger that test the battery before starting the charge. it does not recognize a glow plug as a fit battery so it will not send the juice.

The easy answer of course is just yank a battery out of the car and hook up jumper cables. But I am looking at other alternatives as well. One thing that I found that got me thinking was an emergency jump starter kit. I have found several starting at around $40 listed as 300 amps or so. Anyone have any idea if one of these should work?

Otherwise does anyone have a specific battery charger that does work?


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## BigGun

Why are you wanting rid if the copper? I doubt it would harm anything. Lots of people using the "crack pipe" that haven't reported problems.


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## Daniel Y

Big Gun, For one $20 for 3 3/4 inch fittings. I am trying to keep this as low cost as possible. Second somewhere in one of the discussion on OA and vaporizers it was mentioned that the acid reacts with copper and produces a toxic gas. I am trying to avoid copper brass and galvanized steel as much as possible. I am not really sure the amount of gas produced is enough to be concerned with that is why I was willing to make an exception at all. Still the stuff is just way to high priced. Stainless Steel pipe is cheaper.


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## shadow-cw

Yup, Stainless is alot cheaper.
Daniel if your lathe is 7x12 why can't you turn a 1 1/4" piece? Hole through the spindle 1"? I can't see what you trying to do but I was curious. I have noticed that alot of battery chargers have the smart charge feature. Don't know about an emergency jump box. You might pick up a core trade in battery from your local parts house that still has some life in it. 

Also for everyone, I found some measurements of the cup on the 12v type that slides in the front entrance.
Aluminum block is 1.700 x 1.165 x .360
Cup is machined in the block: 1.170 x 1.050 x .325
Machine the cup tight to one side leaving space for the glow plug.
Block holding glow plug is: .450 x .450 x 1.663
Threads on glow plug are machined off. A set screw in the block holds it in place.


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## Daniel Y

Shadow. The capacity of my chuck is only 1 inch diameter. I want to go with a smaller diameter aluminum stock anyway. I just have to wait to get it.

I am thinking of making up a slide it style as well. thanks for the dimensions.


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## shadow-cw

Daniel Y said:


> Shadow. The capacity of my chuck is only 1 inch diameter. I want to go with a smaller diameter aluminum stock anyway. I just have to wait to get it.
> 
> I am thinking of making up a slide it style as well. thanks for the dimensions.



I understand. Most everything I have turned for the 1/2" pipe fittings I have used 1" and 7/8" aluminum rod.


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## shadow-cw

crofter said:


> I made up a vaporizer yesterday. I used two glow plugs so they sit either side of the chamber which is a piece of 1/2 stainless pipe about an inch and a half long with the ends closed and hole cut in the top to fill. Crude but I wanted to observe the process. I note that there is quick recrystalization on parts that are not up to temperature. Looks like hoar frost. After a while as the chamber heats, it does go off into the air. I dont think a length of pipe leading into the hive will give a dependably measured delivery. The propane heated crack pipe shows the same thing unless you heat up the discharge pipe before you heat the area with the powder. It takes a bit of fiddling to get good boil off without having it flash. It is not nice to be that up close and personal with oxalic vapor, so the electric is more user friendly. What I stuck together is not slim enough to go through a standard entrance. In a way I dont want the glow plug exposed to potentially ignite wax inside a hive as they certainly glow a bright yellow for about an inch long. Still meditating!


Great info. I'm getting the same "frosting" on parts that are not up to temperature. I don't know if my nuc nozzel will work or not. I'm going to work on a small compact vaporizer that will fit through the entrance. The double glow plug has gave me a few ideas.


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## Daniel Y

Crofter, good info, bad for my design. I will probably have to pre heat the SS and copper fittings on my set up. I do have one idea that I hope will eliminate any travel through pipes yet still use the box on top design. sort of you ideas of a hole in the side of the pipe rather than the end. Only my hole will be in an aluminum rod large enough for a closed end hole and the hot part of the glow plug directly below it. It will have to slide like a drawer through the wall of the box just far enough to be able to add the next dose of acid to the pocket then slide back in to be heated.


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## crofter

I re arranged things a bit and now could slip it into a 3/4 high hive entrance. I made an enclosure for the bottom that will keep the glow plugs from being exposed. I said that my plugs would stand up to full battery voltage without burning out; apparently that may only be true when they are tightly screwed into a cylinder head that keeps the body temperature down. I will have to mess with a resistor, or charge in pulses, or perhaps with two glow plugs could hook them in series. Just details. If this wasnt fun and my time free, the 90$ price of the Heilyser Vaporizer would start to look very reasonable! Lol!

A charge of oxalic is only a half teaspoon or a tad more (very scientific) so you dont need a huge heat chamber. If you dont overdrive it, the oxalic is quite calm as it bubbles away; you dont need a lot of freeboard on the sides.


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## Daniel Y

lol, yeah I am sure I saw tad listed right in there with ohm. amp and mm somewhere. 
Actually I have a tad measuring spoon. a pinch and a scosh as well so keep trying to throw me with those foreign forms of measurement. I am way ahead of you.

I am still looking for a way to power my glow plug. I got hurt yesterday and am not supposed to be walking so it has put a bit of a limp in my progress. I have a bit of an experiment going with melting wax in a 26 lb steel cylinder just setting out in the sun. the cylinder tipped over and landed on one of my toes. the cylinder is just fine. the toe not so much. we spent 12 hours yesterday just trying to get the bleeding to stop. I am minus a toe nail, the entire thing. and got a pretty nasty cut/ tear in the flesh as well. sort of tried to peel the skin off the end of my toe from just behind the nail. Lesson learned don't play with heavy metal objects while barefoot.

Anyway I am confined to a chair until we know the bleeding has stopped so it will slow me down for just a bit. My wife wants me to go to the ER, I am not agreeing just yet. It hurts enough without adding a doctor bill to it.


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## crofter

Oh No!' I can feel the throbbing! One thing about it, bee stings now wont amount to mosquito bites by comparison. On the charger; I have some old ones still going without the polarity sensing so you might pick one up at yard sale or Craigs List. Just make sure they are rated for about 15 amp. You can buy a lawn tractor battery for ~30$ and it should be good for at least 5 goes on a charge. Less trouble than stringing cord and charger.


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## Fuzzy

Daniel Y,

Don't know how old you are or how your health is. But please don't mess around with significant wounds on your feet. They are notoriously slow to heal and subject to infection. If you wait until you HAVE to go, you could loose a foot, leg, or worse.

Do whatever it takes to get it cleaned, closed, and healed before something bad happens.


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## Lburou

As you consider a 110V heat source, I wonder if THIS LINK would help to provide a compact heating unit....Can you adapt this tool (designed to apply model airplane coverings)?


Thermostatically controlled up to 350F.


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## Daniel Y

It woudl be very interesting to play around with one of those irons. or any other similar item.
some of several questions that first came to mind where.
How large is it and woudl it fit through the opening of the hive? If not is there enough material to modify it enough to allow it to?

Could the handle be modified or replaced so as to be straight with the plate? if so how difficult would this modification be?

Could the heating element and controller simply be removed and used in a custom made plate?

If one of these where cannibalized just to see what they a re made of . could the individual parts be located at an even lower price?

The idea of a temp control is very desirable even if it is something that is pre set

In addition to making something of this sort work. devices that plug into a cigarette lighter and convert 12v DC to 110 ac do exist 

here is just one example. http://www.amazon.com/Universal-110V-Power-Inverter-Adapter/dp/B0015TOTNY

so an AC solution is not that hard to convert to those needing portable 12V DC power supply.


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## Lburou

Daniel, the iron comes apart and the shoe can easily be replaced. After that, one would have to disassemble it to see what you had. I had one years ago and can't find it this morning. If I find it, I'd be happy to donate to the cause. 

From memory, the iron is about three or four inches long and an inch and a half wide. Four screws hold the shoe, you can imagine what would be left without the shoe.


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## shadow-cw

Lburou said:


> As you consider a 110V heat source, I wonder if THIS LINK would help to provide a compact heating unit....Can you adapt this tool (designed to apply model airplane coverings)?
> 
> 
> Thermostatically controlled up to 350F.
> View attachment 3063


Looks like it might just work to be converted to a vaporizer. 

Daniel, I hope you heal quick. Take good care of yourself.


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## Oldtimer

shadow-cw said:


> I had a little free time today so I carved a Maori Fish Hook out of a piece of deer antler.


That's when I realised you are a Kiwi, like me. So, where can I get one of those glow plugs?


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## shadow-cw

Oldtimer said:


> That's when I realised you are a Kiwi, like me. So, where can I get one of those glow plugs?


I don't know why but I am drawn to art work of the Maori fish hooks. I like to carve too. 
The glow plugs can be had at your local parts store or eBay. Autolite 1104 or Champion CH69.


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## Oldtimer

Kapai!


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## shadow-cw

Nau Mai
Kia Waimarie


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## mmmooretx

I forgot that I had one of these irons in the garage. I did take it apart to look at it and may have to talk to a machinist friend. I do have some 1/2" stainless 304 tubing, but I may just finish the one I started with the glow plug. I will be out of town this weekend but may finish Sunday. My only concern with it is that the OA will be directly on the glow plug.



Lburou said:


> Daniel, the iron comes apart and the shoe can easily be replaced. After that, one would have to disassemble it to see what you had. I had one years ago and can't find it this morning. If I find it, I'd be happy to donate to the cause.
> 
> From memory, the iron is about three or four inches long and an inch and a half wide. Four screws hold the shoe, you can imagine what would be left without the shoe.


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## Daniel Y

There is an incredible variety of ideas appearing concerning these devices. Once some of them have been tried out I would really like to see a single thread or something in the way of an article made up of them. The way it is going it could be quite a project.

By the way, thanks all for the concern. The damage to my toes does not seem to be as bad as I first feared. I guess that might explain why I was not in as much pain as I first thought I should be. In all it did take nearly 60 hours to completely stop the bleeding, yet I was not really feeling any pain. It was confusing. We then focused on the possible causes my blood may not be clotting. One problem we found would have been a calcium and Vitamin K2 deficiency. I took supplements of both and the bleeding stopped within 2 hours. I am now taking daily doses of calcium, K2 and D3. I guess they all work together. the K2 and D3 are required for my Body to even use the calcium. I have had noticeable improvement of the toe for the past two days.

Again thanks for the concern and I just wanted to let you all know that it seems to be fine. I should be ready to go out and smash another one soon.

I am waiting for my OA to arrive still so I have not been able to test my design. So of the comments about the vapor condensating on the pipe has me concerned. But here are a few of my thoughts.

In the article at scientific beekeeping it is mentioned that a dose is 1.5 to 3 grams. (I believe grams is the unit of measure I do know the numbers are correct). It goes on to say that no measured improvement of mite kill was noticed with the higher dose. It appears that the most effective results are already reached with just 1.5 grams per box although a higher dose does not appear to be harmful. So if you are using the higher dosage there is room to loose up to half the acid to condensation etc and still effectively treat the hive.

I am using a 3/8 inch copper cap as my measuring spoon where one cap full will be one dose for a box. Unless I am mistaken those caps are approx 3 grams.

I am in hopes my acid arrives today as I really hope to get my hives treated soon.

More concern on the info I have found concerning treatment.

According to the most recent information I have been seeing it seems that multiple treatments (3 to 4) spaced a week to ten days apart is currently the common wisdom. In the article at SB (scientific beekeeping) He recommends only one treatment per year with some reference that more frequent treatments may be harmful to the bees. I do realize that the SB info is older and may not have been updated with more recent understanding of OA.


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## BigGun

Daniel Y said:


> According to the most recent information I have been seeing it seems that multiple treatments (3 to 4) spaced a week to ten days apart is currently the common wisdom. In the article at SB (scientific beekeeping) He recommends only one treatment per year with some reference that more frequent treatments may be harmful to the bees. I do realize that the SB info is older and may not have been updated with more recent understanding of OA.


I've read the same thing. I believe the SB article was referring to treating by trickle once a year. You can supposedly treat by vapor as often as needed.


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## crofter

I got my replacement glo plugs and decided I did not want them glowing that bright yellow. Since I am using two plugs straddling the dish I have a bit of heat to spare. 16" of stainless wire as a resistor takes them down to cherry red. I insulated the bottom and sides of my bowl to keep the heat in and reduce flame hazard in the hive. Probably would still be a good idea to rake the ladder comb off the bottom of the frames where you shove the vaporizer in. I have to try some measured charges and time the heat cycle. It takes close to a minute to start vapor but then there is a fair bit of coast with stored heat to finish boil off.


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## crofter

Couple of pictures. The chamber is about 1 1/2" long, 3/4" high and wide. Overall about 7/8" high and 1 1/2" wide. The cladding is aluminum with glass cloth surrounding chamber. Near the end of boil you can see the condensed whiskers of oxalic that hit the cold spots. There probably is not a whole lot of mass to it though. There is no residue on any parts that got up to temperature. It looks like it will take two minutes of current on and three minutes start till all the crystal has evaporated. My feeling is you will probably want to keep the weight as low as possible and the area small that you are heating. This is just proof of concept so no concessions to making it purty yet. No use putting on lipstick if it is still a pig!


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## beeman2009

> "Add the cost of the acid and the total is 62.20. Still more than $100 cheaper than buying one ready made."


Daniel Y,

Check out these folks, http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/index.html , they make & sell a 12 volt OA vaporizer for $ 90.00 plus s/h. They are out of Canada. Have not bought one yet, but I hear they are good folks to deal with. Just my 2 cents. 

BTW, new to this forum, thanks for having me.


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## shadow-cw

Cool design Crofter. 
Glad to hear that your healing well Daniel. 

Everything I have read says you can vaporize OA several times. Trickling can only be done once a year. Less is more on the amount. I have read 1-2 grams per deep and to overdose you have to apply 8+ grams per deep.


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## WWW

Crofter, I have been following this thread with great interest and was wondering if you could describe or show a picture of the stainless resistor wire that you used, it sounds like the answer to the vaporizer getting too hot. By the way your design is looking great so far and I look forward to seeing what all you guys come up with.


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## Oldtimer

Daniel Y said:


> According to the most recent information I have been seeing it seems that multiple treatments (3 to 4) spaced a week to ten days apart is currently the common wisdom. In the article at SB (scientific beekeeping) He recommends only one treatment per year with some reference that more frequent treatments may be harmful to the bees.


According to what I have been reading, OA administered as a trickle can have a suppressing efect on brood rearing if used more than once. This is because if the OA is administered as a trickle the bees consume it, add it to their food stores, and feed it to their larvae.

If it's administered as a vapor the bees consuming it is less of an issue and the same research indicated it can be administered 4 times a week apart with no measureable effect on brood raising.


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## crofter

WWW said:


> Crofter, I have been following this thread with great interest and was wondering if you could describe or show a picture of the stainless resistor wire that you used, it sounds like the answer to the vaporizer getting too hot. By the way your design is looking great so far and I look forward to seeing what all you guys come up with.


It is just a piece of stainless steel wire about .040" dia. put in series in the feed wire. I cut it longer and just slide the clamp along until I get the resistance I need. It has much higher resistance than copper. It gets quite hot to the touch. I now have a piece about 5" long in the circuit and seems about right. 

I think my bowl would be better to have been made of aluminum than stainless as heat conductivity is much better so the bowl heats evenly. There is a bit of a tendency to boil up and crust that gets hung up on the sides of the bowl that are cooler, then the clock ticks till the bowl gets hotter and the heat runs up the sides to melt down the hung up oxalic. Molten oxalic crystals are not very fluid and I suspect that if you heat them to the point where they are, you may be overheating and getting breakdown into less desirable gasses but that is conjecture. What I have will work but the time taken is close to 4 minutes before all the smoke has settled. Some of the patent ones claim 2 minutes which would be a concern if you were doing multiple hives.

I am interested in seeing how some of the others turn out. I am getting the sense that there is not a whole lot of excess heat to waste when working with one glo plug.


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## BigGun

I hate to pull this discussion a different direction but, has anyone considered a hot glue gun as a heat source? They are cheap and readily available.


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## snl

beeman2009 said:


> Daniel Y,
> 
> Check out these folks, http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/index.html , they make & sell a 12 volt OA vaporizer for $ 90.00 plus s/h. They are out of Canada. but I hear they are good folks to deal with. Just my 2 cents.


I bought one from them, it works just fine and a nice piece of work that I did not have to engineer and make...


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## Lburou

BigGun said:


> I hate to pull this discussion a different direction but, has anyone considered a hot glue gun as a heat source? They are cheap and readily available.


While we are brainstorming, I had thought of a small, battery powered soldering iron too.....?


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## BigGun

Lburou said:


> While we are brainstorming, I had thought of a small, battery powered soldering iron too.....?



I actually saw a picture of one just like that. It was 110 though. It was a copper end cap wired to the iron. Used copper wire thru holes drilled in the bottom. Both the glue gun or soldering iron would be easy to power with a small inverter from a vehicle even with an extension cord.


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## shadow-cw

BigGun said:


> I actually saw a picture of one just like that. It was 110 though. It was a copper end cap wired to the iron. Used copper wire thru holes drilled in the bottom. Both the glue gun or soldering iron would be easy to power with a small inverter from a vehicle even with an extension cord.


Good idea on the inverter. I've put them on several vehicles but didn't think about one to run a vaporizer. When I get a little cash saved up I'm going to put an inverter on my truck so I will always have a power source for doing cutouts, running saws, vacs, ect...


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## WWW

Thanks for the resistor info crofter, you have enlightened me in an area that I have had little experience in, I will have to do some experimenting soon.


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## Bozoshoes

I have seen a YouTube of a German man using a charcoal disc and an aluminum cup to vaporize Oxalic Acid in the empty (Feeder) Box on top of the Brood Chamber. He lights the Disc, Waits until it whitens, places what looks like a teaspoon of OA in the cup and sets it right on the hot charcoal disc. He then closes the top and walks away. I assume it works. Anyone have any ideas about this method??


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## BigGun

Could you supply a link?


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## Bozoshoes

I Don't read or write German, but a picture says.........http://youtu.be/y4rm5pDvJTo, Seems pretty simple although unscientific. I gotta think it works or this guy wouldn't be doing it.


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## Daniel Y

That is keeping it pretty simple. Here is an example of where you can get the charcoal.
http://www.hookahcompany.com/all_hookah_charcoal_33_ctg.htm
They are used for Hookas and should not be that difficult to find.

The aluminum cups. Here is the photos from a google search for aluminum dish.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alu...N7XL4PTiwKw24F4&ved=0CCcQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=578

One concern that comes to mind is the effect of charcoal being burned in the hive. But at the same time these charcoals are made to smoke. Definitely answers a lot of other problems such as the ability to treat multiple hives at once and portability.

By the way while shopping for the coal keep in mind that they do make a small pair of tongs for handling the hot charcoal. might be handy to have a pair rather than bare fingers to move cups etc. if you dropped a coal for any reason etc.


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## ScooterTrash

Excellent the charcoal method as it applies the KISS principle. Thanks


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## Tim B

You could probably use the stuff that caterers use to warm trays. It comes in a can, they light it in the can and it burns for hours. Someone could probably figure out how much is needed to provide the necessary heat, dish it onto something, light it and place it in the hive. Use just the amount needed to get the job done.


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