# Is there anything wrong with using medium boxes for brood?



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

There is nothing 'wrong' about using mediums. Deeps are cheaper and more efficient but you did not lose a colony because you used mediums for brood.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I forget whether you have 8- or 10- frame boxes?

No there is nothing bad about using all mediums, many people do it quite successfully (Michael Bush as an example, I think.) It certainly solves the vexing _spring_ problem of wintering on both deeps and mediums, It's more difficult to do the early manipulations when you have two sizes of boxes, with brood in both.

That's why I stopped using mediums as supers, since I really prefer three deeps to winter on. So I use deeps as supers and.any frame fits in any box.

It's more expensive, of course, to run all mediums because the boxes (and sometimes the frames, too) cost the same as deeps but you need 1/3 more of them both to get the same amount of space within a hive. And if you run 8-frame colonies which are 20% smaller, still. You're gonna need a lot of boxes! Why not try it and see how you like it? I wouldn't cut your deep boxes down before you had given it a year. You can always use extra supers even if you decide to got back to DDM, or even my fave, DDD, as a winter stack.

Nancy


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## George Page (Apr 10, 2017)

enjambres said:


> I forget whether you have 8- or 10- frame boxes?
> 
> No there is nothing bad about using all mediums, many people do it quite successfully (Michael Bush as an example, I think.) It certainly solves the vexing _spring_ problem of wintering on both deeps and mediums, when it's more difficult to do the early manipulations and you have two sizes of boxes with brood in both.
> 
> ...


I have all 8 frame and the thing is, I would need to invest in (2) additional (or more) deep boxes...as well as frames and foundation. Versus buyign waxed plastic foundation for this year. I may have answered my own question...thanks!


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

George,

Oh, I see, you had all-mediums this past year and were thinking of deeps as brood boxes.

I don't think all mediums were the cause the failure, though unless you had at least three, preferably four, in your winter stack you may have needed more room to store more resources.

As a reference, a single 10-frame deep box is roughly equivalent to two 8-frame medium boxes. When you hear people say they winter on "two boxes", or two deeps and a medium - it really makes a difference what width and size of box they are talking about. To make up a colony the same size as my three, 10-frame deep colonies using just 8-frame mediums you need a stack six boxes high. My colonies are admittedly over-scale, though they winter with great success. But still, that's a lot of extra boxes to tend when half as many would work just as well.

Do you know beekeepers in your area that regularly get 8-frame medium stacks to winter well? If they do, then how many boxes are in their stacks? That's the key thing to assess.

Nancy


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## George Page (Apr 10, 2017)

enjambres said:


> George,
> 
> Oh, I see, you had all-mediums this past year and were thinking of deeps as brood boxes.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I get your points. I'm not as concerned about last year. No, I don't really know of any beekeepers in the area that winter successfully, with medium or deep.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I find all-mediums cast swarms far more frequently. The laying space on a medium with a small honey and pollen crescent can be very small, and the queen feels crowded more frequently. The lack of open brood pheromone is primary swarm trigger, and this situation is more common on medium frames. The interchangeability advantage is genuine, but a colony that has swarmed out (releasing multiple after swarms and perishing) is a liablity.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

George,

This is an awfully depressing statement:



> I don't really know of any beekeepers in the area that winter successfully, with medium or deep.


Surely there are successful beekeepers in CT? Do you belong to the nearest bee-club? 

If you are having trouble wintering, I'm willing to bet it's not the box-size, all by itself. The basics of a healthy colony, well-treated for mites in a timely fashion - and re-treated when regular monitoring indicates the need for it - and left with enough stores is almost certain to winter well. 

I know I asked you this in another thread and you may have replied, though I may have missed it... Do you know what caused the bees to die? That's an essential thing to work out before reusing the equipment, or even just doing the same things you did before. Can you tell us more about the history of the colony during last summer?

(I need to get out in my yard, so I'll be off Beesource for the afternoon, but back this evening.)

BTW, I share JWC's observation about the increased swarminess of 8-frame mediums hives (or even just 8-frame equipment in general). It's popular with my students but I find that it takes a lot more vigilance and effort to manage successfully. Maybe repeated swarming was part of the problem for you last summer? If you aren't inspecting every week, or two, you might have missed seeing it. And as "natural" as it most surely is, it can be very disruptive to a managed colony, especially in the crucial establishment year.

Nancy


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

JWChesnut said:


> I find all-mediums cast swarms far more frequently. The laying space on a medium with a small honey and pollen crescent can be very small, and the queen feels crowded more frequently. The lack of open brood pheromone is primary swarm trigger, and this situation is more common on medium frames. The interchangeability advantage is genuine, but a colony that has swarmed out (releasing multiple after swarms and perishing) is a liablity.


DITTO!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I find the bees do fine in most any cavity if it's not ridiculously large. Mine are all eight frame medium boxes and they do fine. I have no more issues with swarming than when I ran deeps. I have less bees stuck in a sudden cold snap since the cluster generally spans the gap between the boxes and that allows the cluster to expand and contract easily.


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## KGB (Jun 25, 2014)

Nothing wrong, more $.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

All mediums are great I started with deep brood box's and cut them down to mediums now all my equipment is the same , in case you never had to lift a deep super full of honey they can be 80 pounds !!! I would never go back to deeps . 10 frame mediums get my vote :thumbsup:


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

When I reentered beekeeping after a few years out for college, career, across country relocation, marriage, new home, etc I decided to go all mediums, because I'd discovered I had these annoying things called lower back muscles and remembered how even when I was a younger man some of those boxes were heavy. However it wasn't long and I was looking to reintroduce deeps for brood. 

The main reason was mediums have .64 the area of a deep, or put the other way, 15.6 medium frames are to equal one ten frame deep. 

Since I was running 8 frame gear now, also for weight, then two medium eight frame boxes, 16 frames, have the same frame area as one ten frame deeps. Plus, no matter how nicely I asked H.R.H, my queens would not use the outside face of the outside frames. So I'd have brood in three boxes and then the queen would move up and use the lower part of the box #4. Thirty two frames of brood. Since brood is not as heavy as honey is, I decided to introduce 8 frame deeps. I haven't regretted doing it.

That is my experience. There are a very large number of beeks that run all mediums and love it. You won't know until you try. Maybe add one hive with deeps and keep the rest your mediums. If you don't like it then the deeps can be cut down to mediums. If you do like then you can start to add more deeps.

edit, side note regarding heavy boxes. I have found that having external handles makes a huge difference over recessed hand holds. Handles can run the full width of the box, so I don't have to place my hands as far from my own center of gravity to hoist the box. It makes a surprising difference. Something to consider if you decide to go with deep boxes.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

My extensive experience with larger frames indicates to me that bees thrive better, swarm less and produce larger crops on 11 1/4" deep brood frames. This Brother Adam hive is now filling it's 4th super on our winter eucalyptus flow. Notice honey super #2 was placed 11/27 and I think #3 was 12/22. From a bait hive caught 6/10 and treated with Apivar 6/29. Good payback for a freebie. Those square medium supers hold 50+/- lbs of honey.
Notice that as JConnolly says, I have handle cleats on all four sides. These supers have been in service since 1979.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I ran 10 hives last year. All types of different configurations: Double Deep, Single Deep, Deep and Medium, and 3 Mediums. I pulled 29 frames of capped honey out of my only 3 Medium hive configuration. The hands down winner. Sat in an apiary with 4 other hives. Now, I think it had nothing to do with the boxes and everything to do with the Queen. Purely anecdotal, but I am probably going to have more all Medium hives as I grow my apiary and grow older.


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## George Page (Apr 10, 2017)

enjambres said:


> 1) Surely there are successful beekeepers in CT? Do you belong to the nearest bee-club?
> 
> 2) Do you know what caused the bees to die? Can you tell us more about the history of the colony during last summer?


1) I did not say there were no successful beekeepers in CT. That WOULD be a ricdiculous and depressing statement. I just don't know many of them. Yes I am a member of CBA. Yes I have been to the meetings. I asked the president of CBA about a mentor program and he looked at me blankly. He suggested this forum....so here I am. I do have a couple of people that I tap for advice, and I routinely get polar opposite answers from each of them (good advice, just different answers). At this point I have decided that it's trial by fire.

2) They started out strong. I was enthusiastic. One hive lost it's queen, then made a new one. The one that was strong started to drop in numbers. They could've swarmed and I did not see it happen. I was in over my head honestly. There was no more eggs being laid in late summer. No huge piles of dead bees. Then the wasps came in and messed things up.

That's when I threw in the towel.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Don’t give up George! You have to keep at it until you see what works for you in your specific area. I started out with deep brood boxes, then went to all mediums and then went back to deeps only because swarms are more attracted to deeps than mediums. The majority of my hives are from swarms and splits from swarms now.


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## frogpondwarrior (Aug 2, 2016)

Hang in there George. Spring and a new perspective is as close as a lawn full of Robins. 
I have been deeps, then a combo, next came mediums, then back to deeps. Finally jumped from 10's to 8's. Now half are sunny side. What a mess with all those different types of equipment. They all worked just not for myself on a given day so much. Now at 68 a I have to yell to pickup a full 10 frame deep. Suppose I could do it a few more years but not sure if the neighbors can. 8's will be the future for me. Probably a combo of deeps and mediums because I have some med frames. 
Check out Devan Rawn and Ian Stepplers vids. They both winter in single deeps and both are in colder climates than yourself. Grab a little bit from them and the great advise from here and you will have a good chance of success. 
You always hear so many ideas. They all work for the people that put them forth. However, they took just some of all these past ideas they heard and extrapolated what worked for them, and what was best for where they lived, basing it on how their though process worked. 
Find a bee keeper some where near you and go and observe a few times. Doesn't matter if they are good or bad your will learn from either just not as fast from the latter. You will still have questions, get lost, do something right, and a bunch of wrong things too. 
The journey is fun and terrifying. But you definitely have the bug or you would be here looking for info. Good luck.


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## George Page (Apr 10, 2017)

Charlie B said:


> Don’t give up George! You have to keep at it until you see what works for you in your specific area. I started out with deep brood boxes, then went to all mediums and then went back to deeps only because swarms are more attracted to deeps than mediums. The majority of my hives are from swarms and splits from swarms now.


Thanks for the Support! Looking forward to a brand new season.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

George Page said:


> I do have a couple of people that I tap for advice, and I routinely get polar opposite answers from each of them (good advice, just different answers).


See, that's the problem. You only asked two beekeepers. Ask three beekeepers and you'll get five opinions.


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## George Page (Apr 10, 2017)

Got it!


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## George Page (Apr 10, 2017)

frogpondwarrior said:


> Hang in there George. Spring and a new perspective is as close as a lawn full of Robins.
> I have been deeps, then a combo, next came mediums, then back to deeps. Finally jumped from 10's to 8's. Now half are sunny side. What a mess with all those different types of equipment. They all worked just not for myself on a given day so much. Now at 68 a I have to yell to pickup a full 10 frame deep. Suppose I could do it a few more years but not sure if the neighbors can. 8's will be the future for me. Probably a combo of deeps and mediums because I have some med frames.
> Check out Devan Rawn and Ian Stepplers vids. They both winter in single deeps and both are in colder climates than yourself. Grab a little bit from them and the great advise from here and you will have a good chance of success.
> You always hear so many ideas. They all work for the people that put them forth. However, they took just some of all these past ideas they heard and extrapolated what worked for them, and what was best for where they lived, basing it on how their though process worked.
> ...


Will do! Stay tuned for more...


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