# A day at the farmer's market



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Presumably, if the two of you actually completed the sale, the customer must have felt that he was getting something he valued for his $10, otherwise why would he have made the purchase?

A farmers market seems to be an environment where some folks think they can practice their negotiating skills, at least more so than in a supermarket.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

That's not an unreasonable price for honey... 

I do have issues with some of the farmer's markets though, none of it pertaining to your honey or situation. In general a lot of these markets have become "boutique" type sales outlets with exhorbitant pricing and are in grave danger of becoming a playground for the well to do - not a market for the common people like they originally were. For example - cucumbers that are $2.00 a piece with snooty attitudes to go with them.

I am a member of a food co-op, and our pricing is very cheap because we do all the labor. Several of the local Farmer's Market people have given us attitude because we are in this co-op. We can get a whole box of cucumbers for what the locals at the farmer's market wanted, plus there is no way they could supply the demand with just a basket of $2 cucumbers. Most of the produce we get is local to our region too.

Around here, a lot of the bigger commercial beekeepers are at the bigger markets, and dump their honey there. I don't even bother with farmer's market sales, and wish anyone trying to tap that market the best of luck.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I would probably describe our market as upscale. Having said that, I know many of the produce and meat farmers and know how much time and energy we all put into our products and am well aware of how little return we get. Not being defensive…just making a point.
I know a number of other small, local farmers who take their produce to markets in ‘the city’ (Atlanta)…and get a higher return than they would locally. And yet, I know these people are not getting rich either.
So what’s a fair return? I don’t know. At the end of the year…when I’ve totaled my costs and subtracted them from my sales, then divided that result by the hours I put into it…..it ain’t a pretty sight. And if I sold my honey for half of what I presently do….that number would be negative.
As a small farmer/beekeeper you can’t be in it entirely for the money. Boutique or no boutique market….you can make a lot more money with practically any job.
All of the above may be different in New Mexico.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Like I said - I wish anyone luck who is tapping into that market, as the odds are stacked against you.

I have nothing against actual farm operations needing to cover their expenses, as we all have to do. My biggest issue is the influx of people who have a cottage garden in the back of their McMansion and overvalue what they have, driving out the local farm types (when you have nine tables of overpriced cucumbers and you need cucumbers for making pickles - where do you go?) - and then being snotty when us regular people have to find an alternative. 

We used to sell eggs at the local farmer's market, but had to get out because all the sudden chickens became trendy and we could not compete. Then the price of feed went up. It's easier to feed 6 chickens than 100, so there is no competition when you have lot's of six chickener's selling eggs. They may be able to beat the price, but they can't supply the volume.

Some of the people I notice either under or overvalue their stuff. It seems most of the veggies around my parts are way over-valued. I can go direct to the real local Organic farms and get the stuff for half the price normally.


As I said - has nothing to do with your honey. We have to sell it wherever we can.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*In general a lot of these markets have become "boutique" type sales outlets with exhorbitant pricing and are in grave danger of becoming a playground for the well to do - not a market for the common people like they originally were.*

I think this can quickly become the case in some areas for a couple reasons. 

First, in most cases it costs more to produce "Organic" and small farm food. The only time this isn't the case is when, as you expressed, the farmer is doing all the labor and they aren't making big bucks. Usually people on a tight budget aren't going to buy something with a label for 20-50%+ more because "It's organic". So at very least you will always have the "Better off" at the more expensive locations. 

Second, it becomes "Guilt purchasing" and "Emotional buying". It becomes more about the "Cause" behind the food then it does about the food. The more expensive the food or product the more the purchaser becomes empowered by their purchase because it's going toward whatever the cause is, "Saving the planet", "Supporting small farmers", "Local growers" etc etc. In the end the real cause, attempting to get people back to good quality food becomes over run by the boutique buying as you put it. 

I see the same thing around here. The prices are significantly different from one farmers market to another simply because one market has managed to garner a specific crowd and another has not. 

~Matt


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I have definitely seen the guilt purchasing and emotional buying. 

I see this "boutique" attitude in some of the beekeeping around my state too. It is less about good sustainable bee farming than it is about spending money for your top bar hive so you can say you are "saving the bees", and importing bees for ridiculous amounts of money.


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## BigGun (Oct 27, 2011)

The local farmers market is a mess. A couple people sell honey they claim is local. One guys bottles say bottled in Tennessee right on the label. He will buy local honey but will only give $5 a quart. The other is "known" to be a local keeper but I don't know anyone who has seen his hives. He's supposed to have a hundred. Should be pretty hard to hide. He always has some honey that looks like the given years honey from my own hives then last year he had gallons and gallons of real light honey where no one else had anything like it. We don't have many types of trees locally in numbers to give honey like that.


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## Glen H (Aug 17, 2013)

In our town I can buy locale Honey from the town store(s) for two bucks less then 
buying the exact same honey from the same Beekeeper selling it at the Farmers Market.

So it doesn't make sense. The store he/she sells their honey too puts a mark up on the honey to make money, yet it is still less expensive than at the market. Markets sell produce that are NOT even grown locally, for most of the summer. The produce is just coming from the Food terminal, where most other stores go to get their produce, yet it is way more expensive to buy it at the market. In the fall , late summer you will find local produce at the markets. About half the people selling stuff at the market are just reselling produce they have purchased themselves, Sweet Corn for example.

Glen


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Dan,

Your price sounds pretty cheap to me.

I didn't realize NY produced sourwood honey? I bet yours tastes different.

Tom


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I haven’t seen any vendor attitude at our market or at any of the big city markets I’ve visited. I’m not saying that there isn’t any anywhere…just never seen it here. I couldn’t imagine anyone with a few topbar (or any other sort of hives) trying to make a go at our market. Before I was even willing to apply, I made sure that I had a hundred production hives that I could use exclusively to support the market sales. Much less than that and I’d run out of honey before the end of the market season….and the next year they’d find someone more dependable.



BigGun said:


> A couple people sell honey they claim is local.


In my search for a market I scouted a number of the big city markets. These are all supposed to be ‘local producer’ markets, where the people selling the product are the same ones producing it. Each market allows only one vendor for nonperishables like honey. Half a dozen of those upscale markets in that city had the same honey vendor outfit. They were clearly selling varietals that they couldn’t possibly have produced themselves. I asked the fellow at one of the markets how many hives he had. He said 250. No way 250 hives would support all of those markets. I hate it when shysters do this sort of thing…in the end giving everyone else a bad name.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

TWall said:


> Your price sounds pretty cheap to me.
> I didn't realize NY produced sourwood honey? I bet yours tastes different.


For the time, energy and expense I have in it....it is a fair price.
I really didn't know about NY and sourwood.
Either way, it wouldn't have mattered. I wasn't going to ague with the guy.....but I wasn't going to sell him 16oz of sourwood honey for five bucks either.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

This is actually an interesting discussion to me and one I started with a friend a while back. 

Seems to me that we have a HUGE variation on prices for honey around the country. Far more then just about any product I can think of. 

I've seen people, mainly commercial, selling honey wholesale for 2-3$ a lb, even less. My mother said she recently paid 27$ for a two pound jar from a local co-op and my wife just got back from SF and said a 2# jar was going for 22.50$. 

Now assuming that the commercial keepers aren't simply selling sugar water as honey, they are the low end and manage to somehow make money at that low price. Others manage to get 5-6X more per pound.

Now I realize that buying a tanker load of honey is going to lower your cost, but at the same time if you bought a tanker load of flour at 2$ a lb you're not going to be able to sell it for 10$ a lb. Just seems to me that there is a significant markup from wholesale to retail, much more then in other products, with honey. 

I'd guess that there are many things involved here as well. The perception of "Local honey" being better for you and many other perceptions that makes the purchaser drawn toward local honey and accepting of the higher prices. 

I know that for my honey I can't sell it for $2-3 a lb. That's not because the exact same honey could not be made/gotten for that much, but because of scale of economics. I'd guess that if I had 1000-2000 hives I might be able to get close to that with the right equipment and set up. 

The problem then becomes selling that amount of honey retail rather then wholesale, getting $5-10 a lb for the honey that's I'm producing for 1$-$1.50/lb, an interesting dilemma.

If I had to guess I would bet that most small scale beekeepers probably don't have a real good handle on how much they need to make in order to break even and or make a profit. They probably have an idea, back of the napkin figure, but nothing like commercial keepers have. Thus, it is likely that in each area the price is largely driven by "Opinion". IOW a produces believes there honey is worth some amount, from the back of the napkin figure, and then the prices are driven from that somewhat dominate producer.

I have never looked up local prices from some of the larger producers around me, but when I did my prices were pretty in line wither theirs. Not surprising considering that if I was significantly higher I likely would not sell anything and if I was significantly lower everything I had would be gone very quickly in all likelihood. 

~Matt


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*I asked the fellow at one of the markets how many hives he had. He said 250. No way 250 hives would support all of those markets. I hate it when shysters do this sort of thing…in the end giving everyone else a bad name. *

I would guess this type of thing goes on a lot. IF you can buy wholesale honey at 2-3$ a lb, bottle it and sell it for 10$ a lb, make sense to do so. Assuming you're buying it from reputable commercial keepers other then being against a particular markets rules I would hardly call that a shyster. 

To me this is the interesting dilemma small keepers are faced with. Any market that demands a large enough volume to be able to get to the point of producing that kind of volume will likely not be able to be met by anyone but a major commercial keeper. Typically those commercial keepers are no longer selling at markets like this. This kind of creates a market vacuum and the only way that vaccum is not filled via a reseller is by such rules as "You must be local and do all the work yourself", which of course will always cause someone to try and get around it. 

It's an interesting "Union'esque" scenario which might allow a lucky keeper with the resources to grow to a position and size of providing a market with their own honey that they could be producing at 2-3$ a pound and selling at 10$ or more a lb. 

I'm in a much smaller market and there are typically no "Rules" to the farmers markets. You can have 3-4 people selling honey at the same time. 

~Matt


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Luckily, I mainly do direct sales, mostly for tax purposes because raw ag product in my state are not taxed. If I went to a farmer's market I would have to mess with the gross receipts tax on retail sales for my area. I am not a big producer, and only have about 25 hives, but every bit of it sells out almost as fast as I can get it extracted. I sell it for about the same price you quoted Dan.

Now if I was a big operator with honey to dump, that is where I would go - the farmer's markets - and that is what you see here in many cases, mostly at the bigger markets and festivals. There are some smaller markets, but few beekeepers go to them, because they are very small - as in maybe half dozen vendors. Too small to be worth my effort. I can make more by selling direct.

I once suggested a local big commercial honey vendor was selling honey from the Cali almond fields, rebranded as local, and got smacked for it. I refrain comment.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

The honey market seems to be a somewhat convoluted market driven by several different factors. Doesn't seem nearly as linear as most where you jump in at one level or the other without a whole bunch of wiggle room. 

It's an interesting study.

I'm pretty small and still way to inexperienced to even guess at what a "Profitable" price is and or what it would/should be. That being said my full time job is a business I've been running for 20 years now so I know the difference experience and qty can make. 10 hives is not 1000 hives. 3 years experience is not 10 years experience. What I could sell my honey for "Profitably" with 10 hives and 3 years experience is not what someone with 1000 hives and 10 years of experience could. The fact that I can actually find a market that will pay me a price that is pretty close to "Profitable" with my scale and my experience is, well, nothing like any other market 

~Matt


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I guess it is a matter of opinion. If you sign an agreement specifically stating that you will sell only a product that you produced yourself but then actually buy wholesale from others and sell it….to my thinking that would make you a shyster.

It is an interesting quandry. It does depend on the organization of the market. I pay a flat fee of a bit over $1500/year…payable at the beginning of the season to sell at my market.
Someone with half a dozen hives wouldn’t be willing to pay the price nor be able to supply the market. On the other hand someone with 1000 hives wouldn’t be able to move enough honey at the market. What these markets create is a place for someone in between. And it makes sense. If you have 200 hives it doesn’t pay to wholesale your honey in 55gal barrels for $2/lb. On the other hand, you probably won’t move it all from your front porch. There is a place for us ‘in betweeners’…but not if someone moves into a local producer market by buying and repackaging wholesale honey.

People come to the market to buy food from someone they trust. It is understandable. With all sorts of news about Chinese honey containing antibiotics and heavy metals or honey diluted with any imaginable cheap sweetener….grocery store honey can be a scary thing. The same holds true for practically any other food item. We have several bread makers at our market. At $5 – 6/loaf…they sell all they can bring. You take their bread home and you better use it soon because it contains no preservatives. Their whole grain breads contain actual whole grains. One sells a rye bread…a loaf the size of a small brick…and just as heavy.

There is a growing movement in parts of this country where people are concerned and interested in the quality of what they feed their families. Markets like mine cater to those people. No attitude.

I’m still not selling my sourwood for $5/lb


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

There’s a lady who has a son that is severely allergic to some sort of pollen ( I don’t remember which) but he loves honey. If he eats honey containing that pollen, he has a severe reaction. Way back when I knew what that pollen was, I realized that the plant didn’t bloom until mid May. So each season, in early May I pull a handful of supers and extract the honey, setting aside three cases to sell to her. I take two jars with me to every market. When she stops by to get honey, I sell her those. I charge her the same thing that I charge everyone else for the same size container.
Try to find a grocery store or coop that will do that.
This is the sort of customer/farmer relationship fostered by a real producer market.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

I also sell at our local farmers market and would not trade it for any other location.There are 4 honey sellers at our market and we all manage to get along well even though I know at least one buys honey for resale.That's his problem and he has to sell at a higher price to come out with a profit.In addition to the money there is the whole "farmers market" thing.Good friends ,great baked goods,and great customers.If you have a good market near you I would encourage anyone to at least give it a try.

edited to correct spelling.I can't even spell honey anymore.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

FYI - about the pollen for allergies... a large portion of my honey sales are to local doctors and their patient referrals. Since they buy direct from me - no GRT is required since it is technically not retail.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Paul McCarty said:


> FYI - about the pollen for allergies... a large portion of my honey sales are to local doctors and their patient referrals.


I get a good bit of this as well. One local, board certified allergist has sent several patients to me.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*I guess it is a matter of opinion. If you sign an agreement specifically stating that you will sell only a product that you produced yourself but then actually buy wholesale from others and sell it….to my thinking that would make you a shyster.*

I agree, that was not my point. My point was that as you point out without specifically making the demand that the individual selling it must be the individual making it then that type of market would tend to be dominated by larger producers. The only time this is not the case is when something is provided that the larger producers don't or can't. Customer service as you pointed out, "Local" or some other draw as another.

*On the other hand someone with 1000 hives wouldn’t be able to move enough honey at the market. *

But with a 1000 hives and being able to make a profit at $1.50 selling it for 10$ would be reason enough to set up shop. The 1500$ would be a drop in the bucket, although for them it may boil down to they can make more money selling at $1.50 -2$ wholesale then they could selling the smaller volume at the market trying to make back the 1500$. It will all boil down to numbers.

*I’m still not selling my sourwood for $5/lb 
*

If you can get 10$ that's what the market will bear and it would be poor business to sell at anything else. What I find intriguing here is that the honey market somehow allows this when most markets would not. 

As I stated earlier I suspect it is a culmination of many different issues and without having actual numbers from actual commercial, small and hobby size honey businesses it's hard to really know exactly what's going on and why. 

I would suspect that there are commercial guys out there producing honey at the afore mentioned price. IT would be easy enough for them to pay the 1500$ and send out an employee to run the market and sell the product. They could even do this at several markets with their volume. Again it will depend on how much they can sell at the market, how much they have to pay the employee etc etc. 

Of course the market group may not allow this at all cutting them out completely. 

I'm just saying it's an very interesting market discussion and one that doesn't happen all that often. People aren't paying 15$ a gal for "Local gas" or 12$ for a 5lb bag of flour for "Local" Flour. 

~Matt


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

MJuric said:


> I would suspect that there are commercial guys out there producing honey at the afore mentioned price. IT would be easy enough for them to pay the 1500$ and send out an employee to run the market and sell the product. They could even do this at several markets with their volume. Again it will depend on how much they can sell at the market, how much they have to pay the employee etc etc.


I have seen this very thing in a few of our local festivals and markets.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

You don't run a small business by not knowing how to make money. Well, at least and stay in it for very long. You're likely not going to get rich, but in order to stay in business you pretty much have to have a knack for figuring out ways to make a buck. 

If I had a commercial operation and I could produce honey profitably at $1.50 a lb and could then find a market where I could sell it at 10$ a lb, assuming I could sell enough to cover the "Entry fee" and the cost of having an employee stand there and sell it, I'd be stupid to not do so. 

In fact if I could make .01$ more a lb selling it at markets then wholesale I'd do as much as I could to sell as much as possible as I could at markets. 

Sure it's a different beast, selling to the public versus selling to Hostess, but as a small business owner you try and get the best bang for your buck. If I sold 1000lbs to Hostess and made 1000$ but sold 1000lbs to the public and made 1100$...I'm going with selling to the public. 

Granted there are lots of things to consider in that, losing a major customer versus a bunch of smaller ones, having to hire more people or not, etc etc. But the bottom line is the bottom line. 

~Matt


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

By the way....one of the tricks that the market's I'm referring to use to exclude the big boys is that they require all vendors, even beekeepers be Certified Naturally Grown.
Although the CNG rules aren't nearly as strict as Certified Organic, they have included a number of things that appear, at least to me, to be intended to create hurdles that the big operators won't do.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

That's interesting and I can see that as drawn to certain markets. I was looking thru the specs for the CNG apiary and I can see your point. The biggest hurdle I can see would be the management aspect of things as far as indiscriminate use of chemicals etc. A place with 1000 hives is not going to go thru and test the mite load on every hive, they're just going to treat everyone.

One of the large producers around us simply burns all his frames every 5 years and replaces them. 

The CNG standards seems a bit more realistic then the organic ones, especially from the apiary point of view.

Just a quick glance at the standard it doesn't appear that they are doing things "Just" so the big guys won't try it, but it seems like they are trying to create a more sustainable standard and that the big guys probably aren't profitable with that model. Much like how a feedlot would not be profitable if they had to provide "Reasonable space" for each cow. 

This approach makes more sense to me then simply making rules in an attempt to make it more difficult for one group or another and obviously the standards will likely drive prices up as well. You have to pay for what you get and if what you want is a bee that is "Well cared for" because you believe that is "Sustainable" and what is "Best" in the long term, you have to pay more. 

Just a quick glance at the standards says that I do the majority of the things on there, I'm possibly even compliant, but the main reason I am is because of cost. My time is worth less then the product I would purchase. So testing a hive and finding that it doesn't need treatment may take me 15 minutes, but it saves me the cost of the meds. My cost per time unit is much lower then some guy that is paying an employee, paying taxes, workers comp, health care etc etc.

Kind of a neat standard though that I will look further into. 

~Matt


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

To my thinking, the most blatant rule CNG has that eliminates many commercial operations but doesn't, in my opinion, have anything to do with sustainability or purity of product is the requirement that all hives must be elevated at least 6 inches off of the ground.
Forget pallets.
In my case, all of my hives had two pieces of 4x4 bolted to the bottoms. I could slide my handtruck beneath them and was able to move even the heaviest by myself. I had to remove the 4x4s and put my hives on concrete blocks to meet the standard. Now, whenever I need to move hives, I have to get a second person to help.
Doesn't do doodly for sustainability, again in my opinion.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*To my thinking, the most blatant rule CNG has that eliminates many commercial operations but doesn't, in my opinion, have anything to do with sustainability or purity of product is the requirement that all hives must be elevated at least 6 inches off of the ground.
Forget pallets.*

From the standard
_
Prohibited – Hives on low palettes, except when engaged in pollination services
[13.] for up to 6 weeks._

I read that and was thinking the same thing, but also was thinking that if they are on pallets aren't they typically there for pollinating services or is this just for ease of moving things around? Easy fix really...two pallets 

I'm also wondering what they mean by "Hive off the ground". Mine are on a 4" stand and then they all sit on a 3.5-4" base and then the bottom board. If they mean the bottom board or bottom of the first frame must be at least 6" off the ground then I'm good. If they meant the bottom of the base, then I've not. I honestly would not want mine 16" off the ground. That just means I have to pick the top boxes off further. BB and two deeps means I'm already 37 or so inches off the ground with a 16" start. Throw in a couple supers and your getting close to lifting things at the shoulders...for us shorter people. 

I would agree that it has very little to do with sustainability but maybe more to do with "Best practice" or something like that. I would have to read more about bees being close to the ground to know.

A lot of the standards are "Recommendations" with few actual "Prohibited" and required. I doubt anyone meets the "Perfectly level" standard 

~Matt


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

When I first applied they had a requirement that all hives be on screened bottom boards. But if yours weren’t you were required to convert 20 percent each year. Mine weren’t….and I hate screened bottoms. All the same…I ordered fifty…exchanged fifty in the field…took those solid bottoms to a friend who cut them out and put in hardware cloth….and then they changed the rule to ‘screened bottoms are recommended’.
I was steamed….and still am.
It cost me a sizeable amount of money and time to begin converting to something I believe creates more problems than it solves.
Can you tell I’m still annoyed?


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

I have some extra honey this year and was going to sell at a farmers market. My jars are 9 oz and after deducting the weight of my nice glass jars and covers they weigh some where near a pound or there about. I thought I would sell it for $8 a jar. But I visited 2 farmers markets and I can not compete at the lower prices they charge. There is no way a small producer (under 20 hives) can amortize their costs and make a profit unless they purchase wholesale honey, and just bottle it and have no other costs for equipment and supplies. I will just donate it and give to friends as I have during past years. I can't even begin to count the time I have spend producing that honey, the cost of bees, wooden ware, bee suits, sugar, extractors, new uncapping machine, washing new bottles in dishwasher. filling each bottle, capping each bottle and labeling each bottle. Clearly anyone who simply bottles whole sale honey can make a profit and sell at a lower price or bee keepers who have larger operations can reduce their unit costs. I believe that is what we call competition and the free enterprise system so I am not complaining because that a freedom I cherish.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Saturday at the farmer’s market an older couple walk up and introduce themselves. Just moved to Athens from New York state to be near children and grandchildren. Love honey. Always shopped at the farmer’s market back at home. Believe in supporting local ag. The fellow spots a 16oz jar of sourwood honey. ‘Ah!, says he…I love sourwood honey. How much for the jar?’
> ‘Ten bucks’ says I.
> He takes a step back and looks as though he’s been bitten by a snake.
> ‘How much did you pay for sourwood honey back home?’ Asks I.
> ...


$10.00 for a one pound jar of honey? My how times have changed.

If the person written about bought sourwood honey in NY it either was imported or it wasn't sourwood honey. Sourwood doesn't grow here. Basswood does. Maybe that's what he thought he was buying and is confused by the sort of similar names.

Congratulations. I sure hope you are making profit w/ a price like that. Makes me jealous.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Glen H said:


> In our town I can buy locale Honey from the town store(s) for two bucks less then
> buying the exact same honey from the same Beekeeper selling it at the Farmers Market.
> 
> So it doesn't make sense. The store he/she sells their honey too puts a mark up on the honey to make money, yet it is still less expensive than at the market. Markets sell produce that are NOT even grown locally, for most of the summer. The produce is just coming from the Food terminal, where most other stores go to get their produce, yet it is way more expensive to buy it at the market. In the fall , late summer you will find local produce at the markets. About half the people selling stuff at the market are just reselling produce they have purchased themselves, Sweet Corn for example.
> ...


If one is selling honey at a Farm Mkt in the same Town as one is selling honey to a Store the honey at the Farm Mkt better be higher priced or you are taking sales away from the Store and you will probably lose that outlet. Said having sold to stores for 20 years.

The extra cost is also because one can buy it right from the producer herself.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> For the time, energy and expense I have in it....it is a fair price.
> I really didn't know about NY and sourwood.
> Either way, it wouldn't have mattered. I wasn't going to ague with the guy.....but I wasn't going to sell him 16oz of sourwood honey for five bucks either.


There must be more to the story. You seem to have taken offense from his shock.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

It is hard for me to believe that one can buy a 16oz jar of locally made, varietal honey in New York state for five bucks…unless small, local beekeepers there are willing to operate at a loss.. Wholesale…maybe. Ordinary wildflower…maybe…my 22oz wildflower retails at the market for $9..
So…this fellow feigns outright, physical shock at ten bucks…yeah…I suppose I was a bit insulted.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> $10.00 for a one pound jar of honey? My how times have changed.
> Congratulations. I sure hope you are making profit w/ a price like that. Makes me jealous.


I am now curious Mark. I believe that you sell most of your honey wholesale...right? What is the general retail price range?
I'm not asking what you sell for...but the range that your customers sell it for.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dan, I can't say that I pay much attention to the retail price of my honey. I deliver my honey to the back door and don't see the shelf except in one store where I also stock the shelf. At that store I know my honey retails for more than the store brand, the only other honey on the shelf. Five pound jars are a little over $25.00, retail. I sell it to them for $18.00. One pounders are $5something. (strangely the per pound price is marked at $11something per pound and the unit price is $5something)

Across the street is the food co-op. They buy my honey and add 40% to my price to come to there price.So, a $4.50 one pound jar would retail at $6.30(?), if I did my math correctly.

I am glad that you get the price you do. I don't critisize the fact. You are helping to keep the price up where it might aught to be. Makes me think I need to raise my prices, follow my own advice. I know one will never know how high a price one could get until one gets turned down.

Keep in mind that the guy bought the honey. I hope you experience a smile in your heart when he comes back for more.

Would you send me an 8oz jar of sourwood honey? I have purchased sourwood labeled honey and had friends who claim to know that what I had wasn't sourwood at all. Bought it at the Asheville, NC Farmer's Market. Bought another sample on Rt 501 Galivants Ferry,SC, produced in GA I think.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*Can you tell I’m still annoyed? *

Yes 

I actually have screened bottom boards. No experience with solid boards so can't say either way. I do have several nucs out there that are basically solid bottom boards, they do appear to beard significantly more then my screened boards though.

~Matt


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

* I can't even begin to count the time I have spend producing that honey, the cost of bees, wooden ware, bee suits, sugar, extractors, new uncapping machine, washing new bottles in dishwasher. filling each bottle, capping each bottle and labeling each bottle.*

Yep, scale of economy. The trick is figuring out how to get the most out of what you're doing and the size you have. At some point the only way to "Compete" is to make less money. This point is kind fo my point I was making before. No way I can compete in price against a commercial outfit with 1000 hives with a nearly completely automated system. This is true in nearly every other market. You don't see any "small" T-shirt makers or shoe makers. Yet somehow the honey market is allowing a guy with 10 hives to compete, relatively, with a guy with 1000 hives.


~Matt


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Mark, my friend the NC property owner gets sourwood honey from me for yard rent. He’s bought sourwood honey in the past in a nearby town. When he tasted mine (ours, I suppose) he was amazed. He took out a jar of the store variety….and realized that it was the….uh….tourist variety.
You and I have very different business models. Nothing wrong with either. In business there’s a term called ‘value added’. Let me drag Jim Lyon into this. Jim is a honey producer. He produces a gazillion pounds of honey each year and puts it into 55 gallon drums (adding value ) and sells it for around $2/lb. He makes a profit from that. You produce less than a gazillion pounds…so you not only harvest it but put it into jars, label and deliver it to retailers (more value added). You collect the producer’s profit margin plus the packer’s margin. I produce many fewer pounds than you. I harvest, pack and retail (additional value added)…taking the producer, packer and retailer’s margins.
When you sell your 5lb jar for $18…you’re getting around $3.40/lb (figuring $1 for jar and label)….over thirty percent more than Jim gets. I sell my 22oz wildflower for $9 or around $5.80/lb (If I include the cost of jars and labels). You said the coop added 40%...right? I’m a bit higher but I’ve also added the value of the actual producer talking to and educating the consumer….while at the coop it simply sits on a shelf for the customer to pick up....my extra above and beyond is worth something (more value added), don't you think? At the retail level…my honey doesn't cost the consumer hugely more than yours.
Now Jim Lyon might say….I wish I could get $3.40/lb for my honey but instead the packer is. And you say…I wish I could get what Dan does…but the retailer does instead.
At the end of the day…I would surely envy your annual profit….and we both would certainly envy Jim’s
It is a whole lot more complicated than this but it would be pretty boring to carry it further.
The important point is…we’ve each chosen a path that fits us individually…and hopefully one that we are each happy with.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When I left home for the first time I worked on a dairy farm/folks school in Western NC. I got $100.00 per week plus room and board and was allowed to use the pickup to go to town from time to time to go to the movies or play pool. I made the mistake of figuring out what I was making per hour. Something I enjoyed doing turned sour and I wasn't making enough money. Even though I had no real bills.

I enjoy what I am doing now and bills get paid just fine. If I did the math no way would I be making minimum wage, not even farm minimum wage. I don't want to make my life a JOB.

Maybe I should be more serious about what I do for a living, but I am not so much into "shoulds".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

MJuric said:


> * I can't even begin to count the time I have spend producing that honey, the cost of bees, wooden ware, bee suits, sugar, extractors, new uncapping machine, washing new bottles in dishwasher. filling each bottle, capping each bottle and labeling each bottle.*
> 
> Yep, scale of economy. The trick is figuring out how to get the most out of what you're doing and the size you have. At some point the only way to "Compete" is to make less money. This point is kind fo my point I was making before. No way I can compete in price against a commercial outfit with 1000 hives with a nearly completely automated system. This is true in nearly every other market. You don't see any "small" T-shirt makers or shoe makers. Yet somehow the honey market is allowing a guy with 10 hives to compete, relatively, with a guy with 1000 hives.
> 
> ...


Or you could figure out what makes you happy and not compete. I could compete w/ the likes of Dave Hackenberg, but I don't. A guy who works for him helped me take off honey yesterday and he said a number of times that "These are the best bees I've seen all Summer. These are really great looking hives." So I like to do what I do and let others do what they do. I'm happy.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Very insightful Dan. I could not have written that as well as you. I agree w/ what you wrote.

Garden Share, a nonprofit organization concerned w/ access to health food for all of those living in The North Country, has a bumper sticker I like. "Fresh to You, Fair to Farmers"

You are doing great service to your customers. And to we beekeepers. You deserve recompense. You came off sort of bitter. Maybe I would have felt similarily. Maybe that's one reason I don't do Farm Mkts. There are a half dozen w/in an hour's drive which I could attend each week during the season. I could never see the economic benefit compared w/ direct store delivery. Plus when I started selling direct I had my paycheck job and my bee job so there was no time.

I wish you continued success and am going to re-examine my prices.  peace


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

MJuric said:


> I do have several nucs out there that are basically solid bottom boards, they do appear to beard significantly more then my screened boards though.


I consider bearding normal behavior and not something that needs attention. On the other hand if you were in an area with a high populations of small hive beetles...that is a different matter. When my bees attempt to sequester the little monsters away from the brood....the devils slip through the screen, the bees unable to follow, and then they return at time and place of their choosing. 
Add to that....when a small hive beetle larvae drops off a frame and tries to reach the entrance of the hive (they must go into the soil to pupate)...with a solid bottom, it must run a gauntlet of defending bees, while with a screened bottom it simply drops to the soil beneath.....unscathed.
Did I mention that I hate screened bottom boards?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Did I mention that I hate screened bottom boards?


 No I don't think so. I think I have one around here somewhere. I could send it to you so you could set it "on far".


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> I enjoy what I am doing now and bills get paid just fine. If I did the math no way would I be making minimum wage, not even farm minimum wage. I don't want to make my life a JOB.


Well said Mark.

I run the numbers at the end of each year. Mainly because I must report it to the IRS. At that point it would be a simple matter to estimate the number of hours worked...and figure the hourly wage. 
But...I really don't bother. As you said...the bills get paid and I don't want to make my life a job.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> you so you could set it "on far".


It wouldn't be worth the price of the match
ps I sold all of my homemade screened bottoms to another beek for about $3 each.....good riddance!
Now I have to get another fifty solids....and re-exchange those in the field.....
Did I mention......ah....never mind.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I find it baffling that any standards worry about how high off the ground my hives are, or marking brood frames and having "separate honey and brood chambers" (sounds like you'd have to have an excluder to accomplish that) or clipped queens or SBB. If you allow plastic foundation, what is the difference with plastic comb?

I would never meet their requirements and few of them are relevant at all...

I could see a concern about treatments and a concern about forage (although there isn't much most of us can control as far as forage) but all the rest is superfluous nonsense.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

Luckily no SHB here.

~Matt


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

While the Illinois Dept of Ag doesn't report SHB in Winnebago County (Rockford), there are plenty of Illinois counties with SHB. 



> Currently, the SHB is present at isolated locations in Bureau, Cook, Effingham, Grundy, Henry, Jackson, Kankakee, Lake, Livingston, Logan, McHenry, McLean, Sangamon, St. Clair, Vermilion, Will, Whiteside, Counties. Beekeepers are urged to monitor their hives closely for the SHB and to contact the IDA if they suspect the SHB in their colonies.
> 
> http://www.agr.state.il.us/programs/bees/


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

MJuric said:


> Luckily no SHB here.


I was up to my NC beeyard last weekend. Nary a small hive beetle to be seen. I pulled a handful of supers and started extracting yesterday....and never saw a single one.
What joy!!!!!!!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Well said Mark.
> 
> I run the numbers at the end of each year. Mainly because I must report it to the IRS.


I do too, in case anyone was thinking I didn't and was about to report me.  I don't think the NSA and the IRS talk to each other much. No benefit. heh,heh


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## Glen H (Aug 17, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> If one is selling honey at a Farm Mkt in the same Town as one is selling honey to a Store the honey at the Farm Mkt better be higher priced or you are taking sales away from the Store and you will probably lose that outlet. Said having sold to stores for 20 years.
> 
> The extra cost is also because one can buy it right from the producer herself.


Got Ya, makes sense! The local baker also sells his same product (cakes, bread) at the market for a buck or two more then at his store.

Glen


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> I was up to my NC beeyard last weekend. Nary a small hive beetle to be seen. I pulled a handful of supers and started extracting yesterday....and never saw a single one.
> What joy!!!!!!!!


I could send you some. Saw some yesterday. No impact in my outfit. Someone should have them where they could do some good.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> While the Illinois Dept of Ag doesn't report SHB in Winnebago County (Rockford), there are plenty of Illinois counties with SHB.


Yet it doesn't say we have them in DuPage. Ha, they're here!


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

Thank you guys for this enlightening conversation about issues I haven't faced yet as a hobbyist.
At this point I am a third year beekeeper having my worst season.
I am thankful my second season was successful.
I donate all honey to charity for fund-raising to simplify my financial life.
It sold out last year and I think will this year at $10 a pound 
in $8 12 oz flip tops, $10 pound glass jars $12 pound chunk honey jars, and $2.50 min-bears..
I have a vision of breaking even financially -- I don't know if I can get to minimum wage
-- but the pleasure and learning have been worth whatever I've spent.
I'm with Mark -- more money is often not more happiness--no use wasting a life where the pursuit of money ruins our soul.
Jesus had a lot to say about that, but I'll quote (I hope accurately) William Wordsworth,
"Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers-
Little we see in nature that is ours."


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## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

I guess the issue is access to quality food vs. offering a boutique food markets. In Athens they are limiting competition which allows vendors to get good prices but restricts who can buy it or who will shop at the market. $1500 a year seems like a lot of money to charge vendors. Is it normal to charge so much, and what does that money go towards? I have stopped going to my farmers market because for the most part I can get the same food and pay the same prices in the store. There are a few organic vendors, but I'm growing my own veggies this time of year, so I can't justify the cost. Traveling around buying from farm stands this summer was a different story, so cheap and so amazing. People are now talking about "Brooklyn Honey" like it's special. I am not convinced, and no, we don't have sourwood honey in NY state. Products should be what they say they are. If I meet you and your are sweating over your 100 hives I want honey from those hives. Half of what people are buying at the market is the story, the story is expensive.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

beemandan said:


> I am now curious Mark. I believe that you sell most of your honey wholesale...right? What is the general retail price range?
> I'm not asking what you sell for...but the range that your customers sell it for.


My buddy is in an upscale market for this area, just raised his retail price from his house to $4.50 a lb. from$4.00, he said his sales have dropped in half since last year. It sells at the local farmers market for slightly more than that. as with bee keeping its all local, there are more beeks than you can shake a stick at and growing rapidly and normally the amount of honey you can get per hive in this area is outstanding. I sell all my honey out of state to get a higher price.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> the amount of honey you can get per hive in this area is outstanding.


This is surely one issue. Around here...a very good season a vigorous hive may produce 60lbs. I suppose another way to figure it is ......if the demand for local honey is equal but the typical production is half...I suppose that it makes sense for the price to be higher.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> My buddy is in an upscale market for this area, just raised his retail price from his house to $4.50 a lb. from$4.00, he said his sales have dropped in half since last year. It sells at the local farmers market for slightly more than that. as with bee keeping its all local, there are more beeks than you can shake a stick at and growing rapidly and normally the amount of honey you can get per hive in this area is outstanding. I sell all my honey out of state to get a higher price.


I hope your friend sticks to his price. He will make more profit. If his goal is to sell out and sell out quickly then he should have stuck w/ his previous price. If his goal is to make a little more money per pound over time then he has done the right thing.

So many beekeepers want to GET RID of their honey as if it was a bother rather than SELL their honey. It's a matter of how one looks at things. SELL Your Honey, Make Some Money.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> This is surely one issue. Around here...a very good season a vigorous hive may produce 60lbs. I suppose another way to figure it is ......if the demand for local honey is equal but the typical production is half...I suppose that it makes sense for the price to be higher.


I get this question annually. "I hear that there is a honey shortage, does that mean the price will go up?" "No, not really." is often the answer that I give.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Margot1d said:


> In Athens they are limiting competition which allows vendors to get good prices but restricts who can buy it or who will shop at the market.


 
A single vendor for nonperishables. Many folks buy a jar of honey once every couple of months. On the other hand we have three bread bakers, numerous produce farmers, a miller with stone milled grits and various meals. 



Margot1d said:


> $1500 a year seems like a lot of money to charge vendors. Is it normal to charge so much, and what does that money go towards?


 
We have two markets each week. Saturday at a city park and Wednesday afternoon on the courthouse sidewalk. We pay the city rent for those spaces. We pay local, well known chefs to do cooking demonstrations. Hugh Acheson, a well known celebrity chef did one a couple of weeks ago. These draw large groups of people who are interested in cooking their own meals. Advertising. 

In addition $1500 keeps it to serious vendors. They don’t want a honey vendor who is there one week and not the next. Or one who runs out of honey by the end of August. The same holds true for every other vendor. It is a rain or shine market. Our customers know when they arrive that the honey guy will be there…no matter what….and that they can get a loaf of homemade, whole grain bread. And this dependability drives traffic. We get 1500 – 2000 people every Saturday.

The whole idea of ‘boutique’ markets simply doesn’t fit. I know many of the other producers. No McMansion types. I have hives on some of their farms. While I’m out sweating in the sun at my hives, I see them and often their wives and children weeding, picking and planting in that same full summer sun. None of them are getting rich They survive by hard work, a good market and a lifestyle that allows them to pursue their sustainable family farming passion.

There are countless similar markets across this country. Well organized, allowing small farmers a fair price for their produce and a place where people who are interested can dependably find high quality, locally produced food for their families.

If you don’t have a market like this in your community you really ought to make a trip to visit one. I’m told that the market in Madison, Wisconsin has been the blueprint for many others….and for anyone hoping to start such a market, it would be worth the trip.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dan, what is the clientelle like? Who CAN buy your honey or more specifically, the produce? The well off or those less well off? In Canton,NY the Farmers Mkt has SNAP capability. The Church and Community Program(C&CP) and the UU Church and Garden Share (the nonprofit Food Security folks) have a booth where EBT Cards can be used. I think there is actually some sort of price break for those using the SNAP EBT cards. This is something that the Mkt Board did w/C&CP to encourage those who might not think about buying fresh locally produced food from the Farm Mkt. I believe that some of the folks who do CSAs (Community Supported Agriculture) accept SNAP EBT Cards too. Do you all do something like that?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Dan, what is the clientelle like? Who CAN buy your honey or more specifically, the produce?


There’s an organization called Wholesome Wave whose mission is to encourage low income families to eat better. There are any number of fundraisers, a large number of local businesses and individual sponsors and almost surely some governmental money to support them.
At our market anyone wishing to use a debit or credit card goes to the Athens Farmers Market booth and can use those cards to buy tokens and those tokens are accepted by all the vendors. People using EBT cards get $2 worth of tokens for each $1 deducted from their account. The extra token is paid for by Wholesome Wave. This allows those customers, in essence, to buy any food items at half price to them, at the same time the vendor gets full price. 
Customers…rich, poor and every place in-between….we see ‘em all.


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## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

I have never been to the Athens farmers market, it started since I moved away. I am going on what I have heard from a friend. I will try to go next time I'm in town so I can form my own opinion. I have huge respect for anyone trying to make a living off of farming. I can't figure out how honey can be so cheap!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> There’s an organization called Wholesome Wave whose mission is to encourage low income families to eat better. There are any number of fundraisers, a large number of local businesses and individual sponsors and almost surely some governmental money to support them.
> At our market anyone wishing to use a debit or credit card goes to the Athens Farmers Market booth and can use those cards to buy tokens and those tokens are accepted by all the vendors. People using EBT cards get $2 worth of tokens for each $1 deducted from their account. The extra token is paid for by Wholesome Wave. This allows those customers, in essence, to buy any food items at half price to them, at the same time the vendor gets full price.
> Customers…rich, poor and every place in-between….we see ‘em all.


Good


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Margot1d said:


> I can't figure out how honey can be so cheap!


It isn't really. It's subsidized by the sacrifices paid by producers and producer/sellers. On the Local level. On the Grocery Store shelves one has to understand that Shelf Price has nothing to do w/ Production Costs or Commodity Price. Shelf Pricing is something I don't fully understand, but it is more than simply buying something at one price and adding a percentage to that cost to come up w/ the shelf price.

There is also the Worldwide production and demand and the economies of the countries of the rest of the World. Americans can't make honey as cheaply as Argentinians, one of our biggest suppliers of Imported honey.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> It's subsidized by the sacrifices paid by producers and producer/sellers. Americans can't make honey as cheaply as Argentinians, one of our biggest suppliers of Imported honey.


As was mentioned earlier in this thread....and implied by Mark's comments....some of the reason honey (and produce in general) is so cheap is that many peoples' perception of the value of honey (and produce) is driven by supermarket prices...which are driven, to a degree by imports. Add to that beekeepers and farmers who are willing to work for below minimum wage....because they are driven by a passion for what they do instead of money....and are willing to live a lifestyle that allows it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Were Farmers, and we are farmers, let's be clear about that, were farmers paid well, then not only would more people farm, those who buy what farmers produce would not be able to pay for it. Farming is not auto manufacturing.

Forty percent of our food is imported. The percentage will grow as time goes by.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> were farmers paid well


Actually, I know some who are paid well. A different sort of farming to be sure. I know one fellow who farms several thousand acres in Ohio. He leases most of the land he farms. He, along with the bank own at least a million dollars worth of equipment. He does well financially. It isn't the sort of farming I have any interest in.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

My Grandpa Porter did well and lived well for where and how he lived in early 20th Century Iowa. All the 5 children went to College and went on to off farm jobs, Banker, Agway VP, Insurance Executive, and wives of an Oceanographer and a PPG Chemist. Uncle Gordon stayed on until 15 years after Grandpa's death and left after the machinery was paid off. The farm was paid off just before Grandpa's death. All on 200 acres. A hobby farm size operation in Iowa today.

I know BIG Dairies here who belong to Milk Companies or Banks and the Farmer lives there and farms there.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*Actually, I know some who are paid well. A different sort of farming to be sure.*

Exactly the ones that are "Paid well" are often the ones somewhat vilified as is often the case. Farming is just like the automotive industry, economic theory doesn't choose which areas to apply to. 

If you tried to build 10 cars to sell your cars would cost a million dollars a piece. Look at Bentley and other "Super cars" that do exactly that. They build and deliver "Special" customer service and technically a better product, but you pay 250K-1M for the vehicle rather then 20-25K. 

Farming is no different. Farm 10K acres or have 1000-5000 hives and you're going to be able to sell food and or honey cheaper and probably make more money via volume then the little guy farming 40 acres or with 10-50 hives. 

That doesn't mean there is no market for the little guys products, but typically they have to offer something the bigger folks won't or can't. For honey I'm struggling to find what that is. In fact it seems the bigger guys can offer more, mono-floral variety for instance and certainly less likely to "Run out". It's not like cars where you deliver 10 cars that handle better, are faster and customization. 

All that being said once you start comparing the price of good store bought honey to that of a farmers market sometimes there's not a huge price gap. I'm selling mine not much more then what the local grocery store sells their "pure and local" honey for....but then again I would be worker for way less then minimum wage all things considered 

~Matt


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You are offering something the big suppliers can't, you're local. Fancy up your container, maybe that would help you find your niche.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

As a newbie here is my question.....

With purchasing bees, purchasing hive components and bee keeping equipment, feeding bees, tending bees,medicating bees, tending and storing components, extracting honey, purchasing bottles, labels etc, filling bottles,, storing bottles, advertising sales, attending markets etc how on earth can one sell honey below $10/ lb and even break even! 

Why do folks sell product at a loss?

Is honey pro tigon an industry by product with bee stock and pollination contracts being the economical force behind apiculture?


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*You are offering something the big suppliers can't, you're local.*

Don't disagree, but simply being local is not much to offer by way of tangible benefit. Now granted the benefit is real as long as the purchaser finds value in it, but it's not utilitarian. 

I look at it like I look at diamonds. The value of diamonds drops precipitously as soon as society as a whole decides that diamond no longer represent their "Love" for another. The value of "Local honey" drops precipitously as soon as the idea of "Local is better" no longer holds value. 

This is very different then say the value of the actual product, I.E. people buy honey to eat. Remove "Local is better" and reduce honey to it's utilitarian value and the local guy ends up competing with the commercial producers and thus must offer something they can't/won't. Beemandan gave the example of collecting honey sans a certain pollen for a particular customer. That is an instance of something a larger producer would never do. 

This is part of my confusion/discussion of why the honey market is so convoluted. Like the Diamond industry it is largely driven by perception rather then utilitarian value. In any market there is some level of "Branding perception", seems this is very strong in certain sectors of the honey market. I'm also not passing judgement in anyway as certainly a 200$ pair of tennis shoes benefit from a similar perception. 

I guess I'm just laying a cautionary tale out there that I believe ones ultimate goal should be to be ABLE to value ones product closer to it's utilitarian value. In the honey market that would be represented by commercial wholesale prices. If one can not come close to accomplishing that then if for some reason the perceived value disappears they will no longer be able to sell their product.

~Matt


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

For some it is. Though I don't sell cheap because of pollination income. Not what determines my price.

"pro tigon"? English please?

Pollination money is paying for my cataract operations.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

A lot of people do make more money off of pollination or bees, so they dump their honey to get rid of it.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> "pro tigon"? English please?
> .


That is auto fill for production


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Guess I'll have to look it up. I still don't know what you mean. But thanks.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

MJuric said:


> *You are offering something the big suppliers can't, you're local.*
> 
> Don't disagree, but simply being local is not much to offer by way of tangible benefit. Now granted the benefit is real as long as the purchaser finds value in it, but it's not utilitarian.
> 
> ...


Utilitarian value? No different than sugar probably. Beekeepers will always be able to sell their honey until the buying public sees honey as no different than sugar or corn syrup. If you don't have a customer base that values honey for their own perceived value than maybe you don't have a mkt and won't maintain a mkt. Don't know what to tell you.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Paul McCarty said:


> A lot of people do make more money off of pollination or bees, so they dump their honey to get rid of it.


Really? Sell their honey below market value to get rid of it? Not because of the color and flavor? Huh.


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

Wow, here in the middle of KY in a very small town, I sell my honey at the local Farmers Market for $8 lb (plastic) and Ross Rounds $1 an oz . I sell the same honey at a boutique store for $15 lb. and fancy glass jars. I'm happy with the pricing so far and sell out every year. Only running around 15 production hives this year, hoping for 30 next year. Didn't start selling until the middle of July with 1st extraction and folks were chomping at the bit driving the other vendors crazy asking when I would show up. This year 2 varieties, black locust finished with clover for early honey and wild flower finished with goldenrod for late honey. Guess I'm blessed with a good market. Sell out of my home for the same pricing as Farmers Market.


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

How do we know he was getting actually sourwood back in NY and when was it too?? Also pricing has doubled since 2006.

http://www.honey.com/honey-industry/honey-industry-statistics/unit-honey-prices-by-month-retail


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

TheBuzz said:


> How do we know he was getting actually sourwood back in NY and when was it too?? l


We really only know what he said. He may have really believed what he said. He may have made it up.
Frankly, it was the physical shock that struck me. I mean...he pulled his hand away from the jar, he stepped back and had a stunned expression on his face. 
In all honesty I think he was faking.....it was too extreme. He may have been hoping to haggle.
I've looked at things that I thought were pricey....and simply told the vendor that it was too rich for my blood.
Anyway....there's no way to tell for sure.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*Utilitarian value? No different than sugar probably. Beekeepers will always be able to sell their honey until the buying public sees honey as no different than sugar or corn syrup.*

I'm actually talking about the difference between a commercial keeper and a small scale one. 

Clearly there is different utilitarian value for honey over sugar, different taste, different uses, different glycemic index etc. I see these as utilitarian difference between sugar and honey just as I see a car that can travel at 200MPH having a different utilitarian use then that of one that can only do 80MPH. 

My point was that the product a commercial keeper sells, assuming that they are not selling sugar syrup, is the same product as the one a small keeper is selling. There is no utilitarian difference between the two.

*If you don't have a customer base that values honey for their own perceived value than maybe you don't have a mkt and won't maintain a mkt. Don't know what to tell you. *

Valuing honey is different then valuing "Local honey". "Local" is not a utilitarian use, outside of the belief that local honey contains local pollen and the potential health benefits of that. If the market as a whole looses it's perception that "Local" has value then local honey will hold no more value then commercial honey. 

~Matt


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ride it as long as you can. Farm Mkt prices will never sink to the level of barrel prices or commercial honey. I think you are concerned about things outside your control and that you should "Just sell your honey.".

What I have read is that the GI of honey and hfcs are pretty close to the same.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

MJuric said:


> That doesn't mean there is no market for the little guys products, but typically they have to offer something the bigger folks won't or can't. For honey I'm struggling to find what that is.


I've tasted grocery store honey and 'real' honey....and there is a difference. If you hold a jar of grocery store honey up....it is so clear you can look right through it. All of the pollen has been removed. It has been heated...often to the point of tasting 'off'. 
My customers want the real thing...not some overheated, overfiltered sweetener. They want the assurance that they aren't buying some heavy metal, antibiotic laden Chinese honey that somehow still seems to find its way into the headlines. Many want local honey...because they feel they get relief from their allergies...and whether real or psychosomatic....doesn't matter.
Many don't care a fig for varietals....except my sourwood...of course. 
I bring in early season, light colored, fragrant honey....and show them the difference between it and later season honey...I bring different colored fragrant bees wax blocks to show...I explain why jars of honey with comb are more expensive....we educate them on countless things.....and most want that education....they listen and ask questions. 
I can think of countless things us little guys can offer that the big boys can't.....so struggle no more.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My point was that the product a commercial keeper sells, assuming that they are not selling sugar syrup, is the same product as the one a small keeper is selling. There is no utilitarian difference between the two.

It all depends on how it's processed. I guarantee what I harvest tastes much different than typical "grocery store honey". The stuff in the grocery store tastes metallic and not very good...


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

There is a HUGE difference in the mesquite honey I sell and the store bought variety. It is not even the same product. To my knowledge, I am one of the only people selling honey specifically from Mesquite in my area. Everyone else does agricultural crops like alfalfa.

I also do mountain honey - mostly late season wildflowers. We have lot's of fruit trees (apples, cherries, etc), but can never make a crop out of it alone. It come on way to early.

So yeah, no comparison with store-bought in any way whatsoever.


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

Send the hagglers to guard bee dept. They'll buy everything you have just no to be stung again  Great for "marketing"


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*I've tasted grocery store honey and 'real' honey....and there is a difference.*

I'm not talking major brands but some grocery stores around me sell relatively local "Supposedly" unprocessed, not pasteurized etc etc. The first year we harvested honey we bought some of this as well as some from another small raw vendor and compared them all. We had three people in a relatively small area, less then 10 mile radius and there was significant differences in the flavors of these even as well as the difference between the other small vendor. The other grocery store purchased "Specialty" honey was different, but on par in quality. All of these were far superior to the "Typical" grocery store honey.

*I can think of countless things us little guys can offer that the big boys can't.....so struggle no more. *

Absolutely agree and I think this is where the "Added value" comes from, not necessarily from the product itself. I think right now the small keeper has an added advantage from the "Buy local" just because it has a certain current mystique about it. I think this makes up for a portion, if not a good portion, of why the small guy can get a better price. 

Completely agree that unpasteurized, raw honey is heads and tails above the typical store bought, pasteurized, HFCS, lead based imports and other mass producers as well. But at the same time the guy with 1000 hives is, or certainly can, make the same thing that the guy with 1 one hive can. They just have the scale to do it for significantly less.

~Matt


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I don't think he would like San Francisco prices of $16. The norm here is a dollar an ounce retail and we get it.


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## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm with sqkcrk. I buy honey at farmers markets because I like the beekeeper. I think the small operator should also be selling their personality, and values. Blogging about your process is a great way to build community around your product. Look at producers like Savannah Bee Company. If and when I sell honey it will be boutique honey.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

MJuric said:


> has an added advantage from the "Buy local" just because it has a certain current mystique about it.


I think there is so much more to it than mystique. All I can say...after reading your posts....is that we are on very different pages on this subject. Not a criticism....just a difference of opinion.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*Ride it as long as you can.*

Absolutely agree and it's simply good business to do so.
*
I think you are concerned about things outside your control and that you should "Just sell your honey.".*

I'm not concerned about it at all. I just find it an interesting discussion in economics and societal behavior. If a person wants to give me 10$ a lb for my honey because they feel it's better because it's local...I'm certainly not going to turn their money down 

Along the same lines the Diamond market has also always intrigued me. A combination of monopolies and what appears to be near ubiquitous and 100% saturating marketing based nearly solely on perception. Outside of some manufacturing uses, which are typically low grade diamonds no one would want to wear, diamonds serve almost no utilitarian function. 

*What I have read is that the GI of honey and hfcs are pretty close to the same. *

Depends on the variety. I believe clover honey can actually be higher then table sugar. Other varieties are significantly lower. This is largely due to the make up of the honey. The more Glucose and less Fructose the higher the GI. Fructose has a GI of 11 while glucose has a GI of 100. Table sugar is consistent and is around 60 or so.

As an N=1 we find that when we cook with our honey, have no idea what the makeup of it is, our son tends to not spike as high or as quickly as with products with white sugar. We've pretty much replaced sugar with a combination of Artificial sweeteners and Honey, which we also seem to be able to use less of for a similar sweetness level. The result is typically a similarly "Sweet" food without the "Diet" after taste and less then half of the total carbs and typically not the same spike as with sugar. 

Will be interesting to see if this works year over year or if different years yield different honey with different effect. I'd like to actually find a lab that could test the make up my honey.

~Matt


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*I don't think he would like San Francisco prices of $16. The norm here is a dollar an ounce retail and we get it. *

My wife just got back from Walnut Creek area and was at a market. She was saying they were selling their 2#'s for $23.50, $11.75 a lb. I can image 16$ a lb pretty easily in the city proper...you'd have to sell that high to be able to afford the housing 

~Matt


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*All I can say...after reading your posts....is that we are on very different pages on this subject. Not a criticism....just a difference of opinion. *

Don't doubt it all. I've spent the last 25 years of my life in the manufacturing business dealing with B to B rather then B to C. It tends to be far more function and price oriented then dealing directly with the customer with little to no room for "Opinion". That is how I tend to see things. If you can't compete on price you won't survive, no matter what other things you offer for the most part. It is not unusual for customers to accept lower quality to get the better price.

Different beast entirely dealing with the public directly and specifically something that can be so personal and swayed by opinion and preference. You won't see "Emotional" or "Opinion" buying when someone is purchasing a piece of automation or a fixture  

~Matt


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

MJuric said:


> If you can't compete on price you won't survive, no matter what other things you offer for the most part.


Tell it to the folks at Mercedes Benz.
You believe that you 'tend to see things' 'with no room for opinion'.
Make no mistake...you're no different than the rest of us. We all believe the same thing about ourselves. When was the last time anyone said 'that's my opinion....but it doesn't have anything to do with facts'?
I bought 40 lbs of strawberries from one of the farmers this spring. Mostly to freeze for future meads, vinegars and my grandchildren's waffles. As I was rinsing and bagging them, of course a few found their way into my mouth. Rich strawberry taste. Sweet. To die for.
A couple of nights later I was at a get together at a friend's. She'd bought one of those big grocery store fruit platters. ENORMOUS, beautiful, red strawberries. I picked one up...took a bite.....a hint of strawberry taste but otherwise flat.
Make no mystique (pun intended)....there's a difference.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

MJuric said:


> It is not unusual for customers to accept lower quality to get the better price. Matt


That's a blanket statement and true, but by no means applicable to the entire population. Many will pay more to get higher quality.........


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*Tell it to the folks at Mercedes Benz.*

I think you're missing my point on two levels. First A Mercedes offers something that a Chevy does not. If there were two dealers on the same street selling the same car one could not sell the car at 40K and the other at 80K, certainly without something additional to offer. Second, I've actually dealt with and worked with Mercedes on the B to B level. They are no different then any other manufacturer. They send out a part to several places to quote and in almost every case the lowest bidder gets the job. Typically the only time this doesn't happen is when they don't have the confidence you can deliver the part at all.
*
You believe that you 'tend to see things' 'with no room for opinion'. *

Again I think you're mis interpretting what I was saying. You had mentioned we "Are on different pages". I was simply agreeing with you and explaining why. Again, having spent most of my time dealing with B to B, Business to Business, and industry there IS very little room for "Opinion" and it's almost entirely about the money. 

I'm certainly not saying people don't have opinions and or that those opinions influence their personal buying decisions, I'm saying that I'm not used to dealing with that type of situation and tend to look at it from the perspective that I deal with every day, which is that money is the bottom line 90% of the time. I could deliver the parts I made in nicer boxes, hand deliver it and give all sorts of other customer services, which I attempt to do, but if I'm not really close in price to everyone else, I'm not getting the job. 

~Matt


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*That's a blanket statement and true, but by no means applicable to the entire population.*

And it was intended to describe Business to Business transactions where it is even more true then the general population. It is the odd company these days that will pay higher for a quality product. Typically you use quality to tip the order in your direction at the same price as the other guy with lesser quality. Rarely do they pay more for it. 

~Matt


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

MJuric said:


> *All I can say...after reading your posts....is that we are on very different pages on this subject. Not a criticism....just a difference of opinion. *
> 
> Don't doubt it all. I've spent the last 25 years of my life in the manufacturing business dealing with B to B rather then B to C. It tends to be far more function and price oriented then dealing directly with the customer with little to no room for "Opinion". That is how I tend to see things. If you can't compete on price you won't survive, no matter what other things you offer for the most part. It is not unusual for customers to accept lower quality to get the better price.
> 
> ...


The three things you can sell your product by are Price, Quality, and Service. What I was taught was that if your Quality and Service are high than your Price would also be high and those who expect High Quality and High Service won't mind paying High Price, think Neiman-Marcus. Folks willing to pay Low Prices and accept Low Quality also accept or don't expect High Service, think Walmart. So, as a honey seller, who do you want to be Neiman-Marcus or Walmart?


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

*The three things you can sell your product by are Price, Quality, and Service.*

Around here it's "Price, quality and delivery". Since for the most part the quality, via a blue print, and delivery, via a delivery date is provided to you by the customer then the only thing that is under your control is price. You will base your price on the quality of part needed and deliver date needed. Your price better be less then your competitor or you won't be getting the job. Again, Industry and Business to Business is a very different animal then retail and Business to Customer. Again, why my perspective tends to be a bit different. I tend to not take into account other "Trendy" demands that may force prices up by simply increasing demand. 

Certainly if you can provide a better quality product with better service then you can get a better price for it. What I've been saying is that a guy with a 1000 hives, again assuming he's not feeding just to make sugar water and then pasteurizing the life out of it to speed everything up, has the same quality product as the guy with 10 hives. The only thing that would then justify a higher price in a strictly market price/quality/delivery system would be better service. Maybe I'm missing it but I don't see a whole lot of service going into the local seller. Heck, I put mine on a stand by the road and people buy it. Not a whole lot of service there. 

My further point is that in some cases other factors influence the market. A 200$ pair of Jordon shoes is neither of significantly better quality, nor are they delivered any sooner then a decent pair of Asics at 60$. Here is an example where something other then these three factors cause the price to be significantly higher. It is my opinion that something similar is happening in the honey market a demand based on social desirability rather then simple economics. I completely understand it as well, it's kind of cool knowing the guy that raises the bees that made the honey you're eating. I'm just saying that the reasoning has little to do with the utilitarian uses of the product and more to do with more entertaining reasons. 

~Matt


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## Jared.Downs (Jun 28, 2013)

MJuric said:


> A 200$ pair of Jordon shoes is neither of significantly better quality, nor are they delivered any sooner then a decent pair of Asics at 60$.


With shoes I know their is a difference in quality due to materials and construction methods, etc. But you'll pay $200 for the Jordans because Nike has done a better job building their brand and their understanding of the target demographic.

The price differences are impacted by a number of things. In the case of beekeepers selling at farmers markets, how long has this person been going to and selling their honey / honey products there? What type of efforts have they put into building their "brand" or reputation. Or it could be that people that price their honey higher (say the guy with 10 hives) are willing to sit on their inventory longer hoping for a larger margin, possibly because they have less total inventory than the guy with 1000 hives that has a greater quantity of inventory and more overhead and needs to stay afloat financially. 

I've gone to farmers markets and if the person does a great job telling me the story behind their product whether its local bread, honey or meat, I will purchase to support them. They have worked to establish a connection. But the second I am just another sale to that person, I'm no longer interested in purchasing what ever they have. This falls under service. 

Conversely, for months I would drive by a stand on the side of the road every day that a guy would put his honey out at and sell. The stand was at the end of his drive way and had a bunch of different sized bottles. I often thought of stopping but never did because there is zero opportunity for connection.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> The three things you can sell your product by are Price, Quality, and Service.


Yep...it ain't b to b....I have no idea why we're having that conversation.....and I believe I'm moving on from that.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Speaking of the farmer’s market….went this AM. Had a very nice visit with Beesource member Greg Zechman and his wife. They drove up from Covington…surely over an hour away…. to check out the market. They went home with a jar of sourwood honey and one of honey vinegar. Hopefully….I’ll get good marks for those.
A pleasure to meet them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Did ya give them the beesource break?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Did ya give them the beesource break?


I actually felt a bit guilty after I thought about it. They drove all that way....and ol' skinflint Dan didn't cut 'em any slack. Maybe they'll forgive me.


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## greg zechman (Nov 2, 2010)

lol you are forgiven dan....we really enjoyed the visit.................greg and tamie


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Had a great day @ the farmer's market today. If they sample, 90% or better will buy... Candles sold well also...


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