# Using Small Cell Foundation to help with Varroa ?



## BilllBee (Jun 10, 2009)

I am going to try something different this season to work on Varroa mite treatment. I have purchased some small cell foundation. I have done some reading on the pros and cons of using this as a method of mite control, and decided to broaden my experience in bee management.
I aspire to those of you that have worked with small cell foundation, for some input.

I was considering placing a new package in a hive body that has only small cell foundation, as opposed to slow introduction. Is this a recipe for disaster, or will the bees make use of what they have and adapt?

I should mention that this will be one out of 11 hives that I will be managing this year.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

It sounds like some people have good results going straight to 4.9mm

I would have suggested using Mannlake's "pf-120" plastic frames. You could scrape off mis-drawn foundation and given it back to the colony.

Anyway, you're going to try.

Most of my bees are sc...


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## BertieFox (May 8, 2010)

Whatever size foundation you start your bees off with, every hive will want to build drone comb, especially in the swarming season. And drone brood is the place where varroa loves to hang out and where it multiplies massively. Just destroying drone brood doesn't always work.
Although swarming is a real pain for the beekeeper, at least when bees swarm you :
1. Get in a gap in brood rearing which sets the mite back a lot.
2. Get a stock of bees which can be hived on clean comb without brood and very few mites.
The other far more important feature than messing with special foundation is to get your bees or packages from stocks which are very good at hygiene and which remove mites very rapidly. Stocks that clean out cells of dirty pollen or dead brood very rapidly usually show these traits.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If the bees come from a large cell hive (5.5 mm) they will not draw the comb properly, at least at first.

One guy reported using bees from a cell size 5.25 mm, and they did draw it properly with no problems.

If you are prepared to put plastic in your hive, there are small cell combs already drawn made of plastic. You put the bees in these plus an excluder on the bottom for a few weeks so they cannot abscond, which forces them to use the small cells. Once you get the first generation of small bees they'll start drawing small cell wax foundation properly. Should add I haven't used this plastic comb myself but it would have been easier than doing it with wax foundation.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The idea that drone is bad is a misnomer. What small cell actually does is properly delineate the difference between worker and drone according to Dee Lusby et. al. With more mites infesting drone brood, and the ability of the bees to demonstrate an appropriate level of hygienic behavior, the mite problem will be delt with without a corresponding drag on the worker caste population.

It is not a silver bullet, and applying the technique to only one hive leaves the distinct possibility for disaster. Small cell is not a treatment, it's not going to save a hive from mites simply because it's in there.


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## gkervitsky (Nov 20, 2008)

Billbee,

"Is this a recipe for disaster, or will the bees make use of what they have and adapt?"

The bees will adapt and make the cell-size that they want. Some will naturally build 4.9 others will not. I have had success having packages from LC breeders, build smaller cells. I won't state that I officially measured everything. I have religiously culled frames that I did not feel were drawn to my liking. My own route was more natural cell and I offered the packages strips of foundation, as opposed to full sheets of foundation. I might suggest doing 2 colonies as SC as opposed to just 1. 2 colonies will give you more reference information and will afford you the luxury of frame sharing between 2 SC colonies if frame swapping becomes necessary for whatever reason. 

George


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are a few options here are the pros and cons:

1) Honey Super Cell (HSC see www.honeysupercell.com)
pros: It's already drawn so they can't build it any other size.
cons: Expensive, heavy and initial lack of acceptance will set them back 2 weeks.

2) Mann lake PF100s (deep) or PF120s (Medium)
pros: Inexpensive. The bees draw it perfectly the first try. You don't have to assemble anything (one piece plastic comb and foundation).
cons: I wish it was 4.9mm but it's 4.95mm. However that seems to work fine. It's plastic and if you find plastic offensive, you may not want that.

3) 4.9mm wax foundation. 
Pros: It's small cell and it's not plastic...
Cons: The bees usually mess it up the first try. It is typically 5.1mm when they get done but some will be a bit funky. Costs $1 a sheet. You have to wire it or buy it wired. It's from the contaminated wax supply that foundation is made from.

4) Foundationless. Turn the wedge sideways or put in a strip of wood (jumbo craft sticks etc.)
Pros: Easy, cheap, not funky looking. Clean wax (no contaminates)
Cons: Some people think it takes too many stages of regression to get them down to size.


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi all:

Michael said it well. The PF-100 series is, what did we come up with that winter of the measuring? 4.953 (or 35) and Dee declared it officially NOT small cell, by her measurements. There are a couple of issues as well with geographical location and altitude that Dee relies upon. Now when you are speaking of small cell, she and her late husband are the people who came up with this, have more experience than any of us with it, so her opinions i value.

That said; what i experienced with using a combination of good house-keeper bees (bees that keep ahead of many problems, the use of then the PF-100s) was in forty nucs and colonies, (zero mites found), compared to the previous year of two nucs on 50% old comb (good house keepers) with five to eight mites per drone cell in both. Two seasons is not a long test, but Michael has been consistanly on this with the Mann Lake frames since, with an eye towards that and he can tell you his experience. The only drawback i had with the PF-100s was that some nucs brought in, supposedly small cell, could not find the mid-rib spacing (the space as one looks down over a super between the mid-wall of one frame to the next). This could be related to small cell, inherent genetics of these bees comb building, or the fact that i use nine frames in a ten frame super. I judged these particular bees poor comb builders over all and would not use these lines again on that account. Other than that, lines from Russian X (California origin) Black bees X (?) Italian X (?) NWC (?) all did very well with the Mann Lake frames.

I do not know to what extent the altitude and geo location interplay with this exactly, but a bit of reading might be in order of the Lusbys work if you find you are having problems.

Last note: Michael and i know each other from here alone, but he and i spoke about drone comb and the old Dadant plastic comb with communication holes and i got out a exacto knife and cut some corners out of these PF-100s at the bottom. This allows the bees to have drone comb. Drones as part of a honey bee colony population are normal when conditions are best. Steve Taber (formerly of the Bee Lab in Baton Rouge and Tucson) has written quite a bit about drones, you might want to see if you can find any of his work to read.

Chris


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> If the bees come from a large cell hive (5.5 mm) they will not draw the comb properly, at least at first.


Can you explain what you mean by "properly"? Will it be a mix of small and large or will the comb be contorted such that you can't use it or work the hive easily?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The former.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Chrissy Shaw said:


> communication holes and i got out a exacto knife and cut some corners out of these PF-100s at the bottom. This allows the bees to have drone comb.
> Chris


Quick question on this. I never though to ask anyone when we ordered and the thought has not managed to creep into my mind until I read this post but I noticed all of the foundation I got from mann lake when I ordered my deeps this spring had perforated corners on just one edge of the plastic. After the corners are snapped should the newly "nipped" corners be placed towards the top of the frame or towards the bottom and why?

All replies; as always, are greatly appreciated,
Moon


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Put them on the bottom. Why? Why not? If they're not communicating well enough, try the top position.


It's one of those little issues that make no difference, in my opinion.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I bought a package of bees for my daughter a few weeks ago. We wired two deeps worth of my own 4.9 wax foundation for her to use with these bees. I went over to her house Monday to do a complete inspection of all the frames. They had 7 frames drawn out. I was pleased with the cell sizing given that they were bees that came from LC comb. The center 3-4 frames had a nice cell pattern; SC in the middle core with size enlarging at the perimeter. The outer frames had very little smaller cells as they were storing honey. Looked like 10 percent drone being raised as well. The foundation filled 2/3rds of the frame, so the bees filled in the bottom third. I plan to measure with a ruler and take some pictures, but at this point, I'm thinking I'll have her start moving the largest cell comb up into a second chamber and weave in the core broodnest frames of SC foundation. If they start drawing it all LC because our flow is about to start, I may pull all of them and put them on all foundation again.

http://www.beesource.com/imgs/barry/katie_sc.jpg

http://www.beesource.com/imgs/barry/katie_frame.jpg


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Moon:

If you pop off the corners and put the holes at the bottom the combs are much more likely to be built all the way down to the bottom bar.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

I have a new, small outyard with 7 hives, started April 16th from packages, all on small-cell wax foundation. Figured I would try it for myself instead of following the debate for another year or accepting Jennifer Berry's study as the final word. (And no, I don't expect my outcome to be anyone else's final word, either.)

There was some squirrelly comb at first but all my fault and none attributable to the sc foundation. I did the "set the package in the hive with 5 frames and let the bees come out out their leisure" type of install on a few colonies and the bees decided to stay in and start right off building comb in and around the package box. The other, not "warm and fuzzy," but "shaken out and get to work" bees started right off drawing out the foundation properly.

These packages came from Gardner Apiaries in GA and I don't believe these bees ever saw a small cell. What I haven't done yet, and I will when I have time, is measure a bunch of the frames to see what the cell size is that they are drawing. But during my quick inspections, they seem to be drawing evenly and appear to be following the profile of the embossed wax. I have not seen any noticable amount of drone cells either.

Wayne


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

I'd like to build on Billbee's question by adding to it. He mentioned his sc hive would be one of 11 hives, though he didn't say if they are all in the same yard. I am wondering if mixing small cell hives in a yard with large cell has any negative effects due to drifting, or any other unforseen cause. I am thinking of moving perhaps another dozen or so hives (large cell) to my small cell yard. (I need the room at home and the outyard seems to have ample forage for more.) I'd like to not taint my informal sc trial if possible.

Theories are nice (and I've got a ton of em') but anyone with real-world experience mixing the two have any comments to share? I recall a similar question being asked at the NE treatment-free conference but, alas, I took few notes. 

Wayne


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"The percentage of foragers origi-nating from different colonies within the apiary ranged from 32 to 63 percent"--from a paper, published in 1991 by Walter Boylan-Pett and Roger Hoopingarner in Acta Horticulturae 288, 6th Pollination Symposium (see Jan 2010 edition of Bee Culture, 36) 

I'm sure drifting will have an impact.

I didn't try a mixture. All my bees died on large cell when I didn't treat them. Then all my bees died on large cell when I DID treat them. So I scrapped it all and did nothing but natural cell and small cell.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

waynesgarden said:


> I have a new, small outyard with 7 hives, started April 16th from packages, all on small-cell wax foundation. Figured I would try it for myself instead of following the debate for another year or accepting Jennifer Berry's study as the final word. (And no, I don't expect my outcome to be anyone else's final word, either.)
> Wayne


If the apiary is mixed it is a fruitless trial similar to mixing treatment free with non-treatment free. So it looks like this yard has to be in the middle of this 8000 acre ranch with no other bees around.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I don't see how that's the case. In truth, just about everywhere is a mixed apiary of sorts. There almost always extra hives in the area, both wild and kept. I've been doing treatment free for eight years, in two locations, with wild and kept hives all around, including a commercial feedlot yard just down the road.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I am saying if you are looking for scientific evidence you can't mix and then draw any conclusions in a short period of time. Over a long period of time you can get a trend that might influence your thinking.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I am saying if you are looking for scientific evidence you can't mix and then draw any conclusions in a short period of time.


I am not looking for "scientific evidence." I noted that I am performing an informal trial.

Again, I'll ask those who are actually working with small cell in their yards (and I'll reword this,) if they have experienced any noticible difference with large and small cell within the same yard as opposed to only small cell in the yard. Does drifting cause bees to change their patterns of cell-building? Bees raised in large cell that might drift during orientation flights? Foragers?

We all know there are bees in the wild. Would foragers from distant colonies affect the cell-building pattern of the small cell hive? 



Acebird said:


> If the apiary is mixed it is a fruitless trial...


What has been your experience? Percentage of sc vs. lc hives in the yard? What noticible changes have you observed?

Wayne


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

My question is perfectly valid for this thread. My suggestion is that you re-read the original post with care. You will find he mentions that he will be trying one small cell hive as one of 11 hives. I asked (of people actually knowledgable in the subject) if this could be a problem (in his and my) beeyard with mixed cell sizes inthe various hives.

This is a perfectly logical extension of that post. I suggest you contact an actual moderator if you feel this is inappropriate. 

Wayne


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Solomon Parker said:


> including a commercial feedlot yard just down the road.


I assume you got their permission to keep bees within "their" foraging area?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

waynesgarden said:


> Does drifting cause bees to change their patterns of cell-building? Bees raised in large cell that might drift during orientation flights? Foragers?


When I went to all SC, I changed everything over, so I didn't have a mixture of both. However, a neighbor just a few properties away kept LC bees. At some point, a hive of SC bees has to manage their own among all the other sized bees. If the two sized hives are right next to each other, you might notice an influence, but don't know for sure.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Barry said:


> I assume you got their permission to keep bees within "their" foraging area?


In truth, yes. He was the one who gave me my first hive in fact. I think that was in fifth grade or so. When I got restarted at the age of 19, he came and checked out my yard.

Back on topic, I doubt drifters have much sway on comb building at all due to the fact that they are in most cases beyond comb building age. Like Barry, all mine went over at once (and from packages in my case). I did bring in one large cell hive at one point and its combs got mixed in with the rest my another unknowing friend of mine. One or two frames of LC in a broodnest never seemed to have a large effect in the two or three hives in which it happened. However, it must be noted that even though they were LC, they were never treated and the comb was clean. I have been diligently removing those combs this year as I now have plenty of SC to replace them and they are getting a little old for my tastes.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If the apiary is mixed it is a fruitless trial similar to mixing treatment free with non-treatment free. So it looks like this yard has to be in the middle of this 8000 acre ranch with no other bees around. 

Drift is like any other bee distance. It falls off exponentially to the distance. Most drift will be from the hive next door, not from one two miles away. That is not to say that SOME bee from 2 miles away might not get caught out in a storm and move into a nearby hive, but that would be an exception, not a common occurrence. The amount of impact of mites from drift would fall off at that same rate.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Drift is like any other bee distance. It falls off exponentially to the distance.


Good to know.

If I have a hive that doesn't have a mite problem and I catch a swarm where it is unknown whether it will develop a mite problem, what then would be a safe distance to keep these two hives apart for the first year? 50ft? 100ft? or as much as a mile?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

There is no distance that will keep one hive from getting mites. They already have them. They are able for the time being to suppress them.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well now I got to see a show of hands. I know I have seen at least 5 posts where people have claimed that their bees have no mites.
Now if this is true you would be concerned about bringing in hives that do have mites. Otherwise who cares.

I thought (and I occasionally do that wrong) that the winter months kill off the mites along with the break in brood cycle so your hive starts off in the spring with no mites. It is the transportation of bees from the south that infects the north. I could have it all wrong.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

There's a big difference between "my hives have no mites" and "my hives don't die from mites." All hives either have mites, did, and/or will. They are endemic.

My hives have mites. I see a mite once or twice a year. But my hives don't die due to mites. Haven't for years.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

How do they survive below zero temps?


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Acebird said:


> How do they survive below zero temps?



Wall how do bee survive below zero temps? 


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Adult female varroa mites can survive for months in a broodless hive. The feed continually on the clustered adult bees.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm#life

I would suggest everyone read this. It is just a suggestion.
Yes it is quite a lot of reading.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Well now I got to see a show of hands. I know I have seen at least 5 posts where people have claimed that their bees have no mites.

It is not true. They are simply mistaken.

>Now if this is true you would be concerned about bringing in hives that do have mites. Otherwise who cares.

When it's an issue is when the hive next door is collapsing from mites and they are drifting or getting picked up by robbing that failing hive. The ones two miles away are not an impact on the size of the population.


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## Will O'Brien (Feb 22, 2006)

This is a great discussion. 

Will you please confirm or adjust my thinking on cell size drivers and needs?
•	The primary driver of cell size is not the bees’ DNA (although it might have some affect) it is the size of the bees that are drawing out the cells. LC bees are too big to draw out SC comb so the smallest cell size that they can draw is midsized comb. Then midsized bees can draw SC comb (this describes the regression process).
•	Drifting bees do little drawing out of comb because their job is foraging. Although they can change jobs given the needs of the hive so there could be some impact from drifters. Also greater distance reduces the amount a drifting significantly
•	We might see little direct benefit to an existing hive from having drones but we do know that drones are essential to the overall bee population and to our ability to have future hives. The bees themselves know better than we will ever know, how many drones that they need and how much drone comb they need.
•	A frame of complete SC foundation can (might? Will?) limit the bees’ ability to have the number of drone cells and drones that they need.

Conclusions related to this discussion:
•	Don’t worry too much about drifters, although they could have an effect but distance between the hives will minimize that. 
•	A better path to maintaining cell size would be to either use natural cell (no foundation at all) or use SC foundation in part of the frame, leaving room for the bees to draw as many drone cells as they want. 
You comments….


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## johnpfaff (May 12, 2011)

www.honeysupercell.com has been out of product this year. They returned money I paid for a case of super cell a couple of months ago. I have ordered several cases from Lapp's Bee Supply. I do not know their source.


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