# How many colonies to be considered commercial?



## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

I run 700 for honey in the summer and send 1 semi load (around 500) to CA for almonds and WA for apples and consider myself a sideliner since I have a full time job other than beekeeping.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I'm not commercial yet, but should I ever venture down that road, it won't be the number of hives I manage that determines whether or not I'm commercial. It has to do with defining business. I could manage 50 hives and be commercial if that was my primary source of income. There are big commercial outfits and small commercial outfits, just like big corporations and small corporations like mine.


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## ArkansasBK (Mar 5, 2011)

Barry said:


> I'm not commercial yet, but should I ever venture down that road, it won't be the number of hives I manage that determines whether or not I'm commercial. It has to do with defining business. I could manage 50 hives and be commercial if that was my primary source of income. There are big commercial outfits and small commercial outfits, just like big corporations and small corporations like mine.



Just IMO, I believe you could be commercial with as few as 5 hives. If you rented those 5 out and counted it as income, you would be commercial.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Perhaps the same type of discussion of a definition of commercial needs to be done much as was done in the treatment free forum. I'm not sure what definition I might use but certainly not 5 hives. I might suggest something more on the order of if a persons bees constitute their primary source of income and can be a self supporting livelihood. these types of threads sure seem to pop up a lot.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

If your income is generated by full time beekeeping I would consider as being commercial. the numbers do not mean much. a queen breeder with 250 hives may devote the same time as a stationary beekeeper with 600 hives. a migratory guy moving 400 may spend as much time as a stationary guy with 900.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Irregardless of how many colonies one runs, the definition applicable to this forum is that of deriving your primary income from whatever number of colonies. As previous answers show, this varies quite a bit. Commercial can be running only a few hundred, bottling and retailing all their hive products, or running thousands, mostly pollinating and producing little honey.

We started relying on the bees for our only income at about 800 colonies, but this was 25 years ago. I would imagine anyone trying to do that now has to be fairly frugal, very good at marketing, or have a spouse bringing in a good income w insurance. Many of the commercials we know run between 1500-3500, making their income from a combination of pollination, honey production and bee/nuc/queen sales. Few retail much of their own products.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

The amount of time one spends has little to do with whether one derives any, let alone, one's primary income from bees. 

Likewise, I personally wouldn't consider 5 hives commercial, even though they are run as a business: a lemon-aide stand can be run as a business too but no one would compare them to Snapple.

Sheri


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I think Jim said it best, "primary source of income and can be a self supporting livelihood." Not only does it need to be your primary source of income (although, I suppose a person who has made their millions elsewhere and decide to do commercial beekeeping would not fit this profile, but that's fringe), but also support a living (beyond a cardboard box and bicycle, but then this becomes very subjective, doesn't it). Just like defining treatment free, there will be exceptions and not everyone will be happy with the definition, but strive to include the majority thought.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Sheri I am right on with your anology of commercial and 5 hives. Personally I do not feel like a commercial beekeeper as I have a fulltime job for my insurance. Maybe I will consider leaving my full time job after I double my current income. Right now all money is dedicated in building the bee business. It is about to support my wife in a full time job of marketing and distributing our honey.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Making the transitions from hobby to sideliner, sideliner to commercial can be difficult jumps. Commercial beekeeping isn't for everyone. Some beekeepers would rather enjoy their bees and don't want to push it to the point it is a "job". 

BMAC, you indicate everything is going into the bee biz. That kind of dedication and the willingness to spend time, time, TIME can get you to that point much quicker than someone who wants weekends and holidays off. Similar to most businesses, commercial beekeepers get all the overtime they want and then some. Good luck with your transition.
Sheri


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I agree with Sheri:

I would imagine anyone trying to do that now has to be fairly frugal, very good at marketing, or have a spouse bringing in a good income w insurance.

Frugal?, is that the polite work for "cheap"?

In this neck of the woods, 300 is also considered the benchmark.

More important than numbers is your attitude. Do you run it as a business, and make decisions based on profit motives? Or is it just for fun? I guess commercial comes from the word commerce, so if you are engaged in commerce, be that pollination, queens, bees or honey; then it is more than a hobby.

Crazy(cheap) Roland


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

It hasn't been a hobby for me for a few years now. Just added income and growing a business. Truly just growing a business as I have not taken any money out for personal use yet. That might change this year. I guess the reason I started this thread was just to discuss personal opinions on difference between sideliner and commercial. I bumped from 150 colonies to ~450 colonies just a few weeks ago. I am selling NUCs, queens, singles and doubles along with honey and doing some light pollination. I was on the fence about pollination but decided now to do a little bit of it for a more diverse aspect of keeping bees. Besides it lines the pocket quickly for early summer expenses.

Personally I do still consider myself as a sideliner, however I personally know folks with less bees and making a living at it (regardless of wifey's income) and I do consider them to be commercial beekeepers. One of the older beeks I talk to frequently said "Welcome to Commercial Beekeeping" after I checked back my colonies this spring.

Frugal----as far as I am concerned that is an absolute must in any business. Two aspects of any business- Keep costs low, increase income. If you can master both at the same time I think you will be successful in any business venture.

I haven't walked away from my day job yet, but we will see in the next few years. I already have enough time to rate a reasonable retirement from current employer so lets see what happens. As it is right now I try to get my entire family involved in the bee business so that we actually spend time together as a family and to keep this family operated only.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Like the above post I guess it depends on alot of things....but the 300 to 500 range depending on other factors would in my opinion would make a commercial operation. personally when I reached about 350-400 I considered myself a commercial beekeeper, but keep in mind I bottle almost all of my honey and retail it. My son has recently joined me and we plan on running 2,000 to 3,000 marketing all the honey in the next couple of years. In addition we do pollination. If I sold by the barrel I could easliy run twice to three times as many bees, but I enjoy marketing my product and hate to sell good honey to a packer only to have it blended with a crappy product and sold to a consumer who then dislikes honey!


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

300 colonies is and has always been the cutoff between sideline and commercial. You have 450 colonies, Welcome to commercial beekeeping! Richard Adee has always said that it takes between 1800 and 2400 to have sustainable living at it. I am commercial and sell to a Co-op all the honey my operation produces. My good friend Rick, who posted above and who I have known for years will Personal message me soon. Tell me that they then blend it into a crappy product and sell it to consumers who then develope a dislike for honey!! :look out: TK


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

beeware10 said:


> If your income is generated by full time beekeeping I would consider as being commercial. the numbers do not mean much. a queen breeder with 250 hives may devote the same time as a stationary beekeeper with 600 hives. a migratory guy moving 400 may spend as much time as a stationary guy with 900.



Need we say more


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Trying to define commercial based on colony numbers or primary source of income is analogous to asking when does big become big.

I agree with Roland that commercial is an attitude. Are you trying maximize returns? Are you trying to maximize productivity? Are you trying to minimize time invested per dollar of profit? If you answer yes to these questions you are probably commercial. Furthermore, what's way more important than a designation of sideliner or commerial is what's in the bank account at the end of the year, not how much went through the bank account during the year.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

beeware10 said:


> If your income is generated by full time beekeeping I would consider as being commercial. the numbers do not mean much. a queen breeder with 250 hives may devote the same time as a stationary beekeeper with 600 hives. a migratory guy moving 400 may spend as much time as a stationary guy with 900.


That really is good
Mike's definition- Commercial Beekeeper- Someone that devotes all working hours to beekeeping and derives all/most income from beekeeping. Someone that feeds a family off the bees (and sometimes has to choose who to feed). Someone that genuinely feels what is happening in the bee industry.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I think the variable of how many hives you have should limit the influence on whether you are commercial or a hobbiest. I guess what i mean is number of hives should not influence whether you are commercial or hobby. It has some bearing but not total bearing.

I think the mind set should be more financially driven.
Are you deriving a profit driven income? (notice i did not say did you make a profit)
Do you account for all your expenses?
Can you classify your expenses?(feed, vet, fuel, equip repairs)
Do you associate depreciation with your hives, equipement etc?
Do you use capital costs?
Do you pencil out the costs of things and how it relates to your business?(do you know when it's time to let that hive die instead of beating a dead horse, so to speak)
Do you plan or implement a budget to keep costs in check?
Do you, once prices drop have a plan to "trim the fat" to do your best to stay in the black?
Do you know the difference and assesment of "just got to have that new tool" and "does it add to the cost effectiveness of production" Not sure if that is worded right

On the flip side..
Do you own bees just because?( Do you care if you get honey or production or not?)
Does it bother you if your bees do not meet production goals?
Do you do everything in your power to keep that poor hive going? NO matter the cost?
Do you do cost ratios, keep track of expenses, know where and how the $ are spent?
Does it bother you if the hives ran in the black or red?
Do you understand the concept of running in the black? Does it drive you to do what you do in relation to the bees and honey?
Do you understand capital cost and depreciation? Do you use it?
Is it your ulimate goal to make a profit, and do you do everything in your power to achieve that goal?
Do you need every gadget and toy that comes out? Or do you understand the fact that some things just add the cost of a hive without aiding in production? In farming terms "machineryitis"--the need to have everything just 'cause.


Being commercial or hobbiest is a mindset. Am I a commercial Beek? Yes. Do i own 300 hives? No. 175-200. Is my income from the bees what i live on? Yes and no. Bees are part of our farm, to add value to the land we own and the cows we keep. Is farming my only job, No. I work part time as a full time school bus driver (5 hours a day), so we have a little extra income as well as add value to the honey by selling candles and honey retail. My husband however, farms full time.

We are commerical livestock producers...plain and simple


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> Someone that feeds a family off the bees ...


 I tried that...fried bees, baked bees, even made a bee cobbler...but the family just wouldn't eat them.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Gosh Honeyshack everything you said makes sense. Maybe we should just sticky that post and require everyone to read it before they decide to post on here. notice my signature? Yes it is a profit deal and that needs to be your mindset even if it isn't your only means of income.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

honeyshack said:


> Being commercial or hobbiest is a mindset. Am I a commercial Beek? Yes. Do i own 300 hives? No. 175-200. Is my income from the bees what i live on? Yes and no. Bees are part of our farm, to add value to the land we own and the cows we keep. Is farming my only job, No. I work part time as a full time school bus driver (5 hours a day), so we have a little extra income as well as add value to the honey by selling candles and honey retail. My husband however, farms full time.
> 
> We are commerical livestock producers...plain and simple


Nope, you aren't a Commercial Beekeeper. You are a sideline beekeeper. You may operate your beekeeping in a commercial manner, but it is not your primary source of income. Just like all those other things you do, you do them part time.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

jim lyon said:


> Gosh Honeyshack everything you said makes sense. Maybe we should just sticky that post and require everyone to read it before they decide to post on here. notice my signature? Yes it is a profit deal and that needs to be your mindset even if it isn't your only means of income.


Ya that needs to be stickyed. Problem with a lot of beekeepers is that they see beekeeping as a hobby and not as a business....they spend way to much money and they view bees as a "equal" to humans or a little lower than humans...Like one writer writing about going on dates with your hives....COME ON! Bees are LIVESTOCK! 
Looking at bees as a lively hood vs a hobby is what sets you apart....the numbers are just for sorting people at conventions....
Sorry that is a little t: but I needed to vent a little........

Ya jim I noticed your signature....thought that was just a extension of y'alls movie line vocabulary or something LOL 

MIke


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## ArkansasBK (Mar 5, 2011)

This is kinda like someone telling a cattle rancher with a hundred head that he is not a commercial cattle raiser unless he has a thousand head. I'm just waiting for the beeks with 2000 hives to tell the ones with 300 that they arent commercial!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, if someone w/ 300 colonies of bees can support themselves on their bees I'd say they were commercial, but if not, they aren't. That's the distinction. To me, it's whether the bees are the primary source of income. None of this makes one not a beekeeper, just a certain distinct kind of beekeeper.


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## ArkansasBK (Mar 5, 2011)

Pepsi Cola owns several fast food buisnesses. Is Pepsi the commercial buisness and the fast food joints just a side line and not commercial businesses? I think not.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

jim lyon said:


> Gosh Honeyshack everything you said makes sense.


You sound suprised...thanks


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Nope, you aren't a Commercial Beekeeper. You are a sideline beekeeper. You may operate your beekeeping in a commercial manner, but it is not your primary source of income. Just like all those other things you do, you do them part time.


But the man is full time. 
We might not be a commercial Bee operation, but we are a commercial operation which is diversified. What's that saying...something about eggs in one basket?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Granted.

And ArkansasBK, apples and hamburgers.
You run how many colonies?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

OK, this is getting silly. I think we've hashed this out fairly well. I am amazed that this is such a hot topic. It is almost like some beekeepers have an inferiority complex or something. Like they want to be part of this exclusive "commercial beekeeping" club or something. As if commercial beekeeping is glamorous. Wait, let me put on my fancy beekeeping veil and elbow length gloves. Oh darn, this pair is all stained with bee....... unmentionables. 

First, I want to defend hobbyist beekeepers. There is nothing wrong not treating your bees as a business. I have many customers that treat their bees as pets, and why not?. They love their bees and I am sure they would name them if there weren't just so darn many of them. What is wrong with that? It is a lot cheaper hobby than golf or skiing and a whole host of other hobbies, is good for the planet and can pay it's own way better than most hobbies. 

But I agree with Mark here. IMO it takes much more than treating your bees as income producers and keeping track of expenses to make someone a commercial beekeeper. Yes, I am sure the Adees would look at _our_ measly 2800 colony operation and would think we are pretty small, but what we DO have in common with them is that this is ALL we do. Our entire income is derived from the bees and even the Adees would consider us commercial beekeepers, albiet on a tiny scale relative to them. (Everybody is tiny compared to them, lol)
But what is the big deal here? I don't mind if someone wants to call themselves commercial, if it makes them feel good, even if they are the only ones that would. 

Sheri


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

At the three hundred colony level, a person has enough depth to carry himself. He produces enough bees to replace with, enough honey to sell bulk or pack with and has enough colonies to bind into a decent large pollination contract for more monies... You can not do that with 50 colonies. At sideline level you can supplement your income. And both statements are valid only in good years. I wince when someone tell me, "I went into the bee business this past year". I ask, "you did?? How many colonies did you buy?" Expecting an answer of several hundred, I almost always hear--two!! I usually walk away for obvious reasons. There is a reason our forefathers in beekeeping set the standard of 300 colonies. TK


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## ArkansasBK (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm a hobbiest now, but you won't catch me belittling a beek with 50 hives and sells queens by telling him he is not commercial, just because he doesn't make his entire living off of it. If you are not diversified, you are shooting dice big time.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Just to make aware those who aren't, the Adees run 100,000 colonies. Or have anyway.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

ArkansasBK said:


> but you won't catch me belittling a beek with 50 hives and sells queens by telling him he is not commercial,


Any feeling of belittlement is not from me. Just making distinctions and voicing my own opinion. If defining what being a Commercial Bkpr is and isn't causes one to feel belittled, that's not my fault. I'm responsible for what I say, not what someone else hears.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Arkansas, you seem to be the one saying it is belittling to be a small beekeeper. I disagree.

As for "shooting dice big time".... that's as good a definition of commercial beekeeping as any, lol.

Sheri


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Arkansas, I started with ONE hive of bees and built the business. That was over a period of 39 years with a lot of ups and downs. I was not considered commercial untill I crossed the 300 hive threshold and I could financially sustain my efforts. Honey prices were 28 cents when I started. They will be pushing 2.00 later this year. Arkansas, dig in, work hard, and you too, will cross that magic 300 colony number in no time. Good Luck with your beekeeping. TK


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

Adees have ran close to about 80,000 boxes of bees. of that, only about 15,000 is what i would even closely consider a hive. just remember that numbers don't mean anything. having quality bees that do the job, make profits, and require minimum maitainence is what really counts.


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## Nicko (Dec 28, 2008)

Id ask the tax man. 
Uncle Sam has his own definitions 
=: )


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What's the Australian equivalent of Uncle Sam?


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## Nicko (Dec 28, 2008)

edited from 'big brother', though thought 'uncle sam' was more appropriate :>


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## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

I understand the numbers thing but I don't agree with the sole income thing.

If a person is retired military (possible at age 38)and married to a doctor who is still practicing then it would not matter if they ran a 2500 hive apiary for production. Nor would a hermit living on 20 acres(paid for) driving a truck (paid for)on solar/wind power and raising their own meat/vegies and running 200 hives producing 60 lbs each which is sold local for $7.00 per lb. Thats what $84 k
Alot of post in answer to the question "how to become a comm. keeper" say to have a spouse with a good income.

I think a commercial operation is one that strives for a profit rather than to cover cost.
Just my opinion Jim


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I thought about this some more last night and concluded that it is not just making a living from bees. Dr. Larry Conner does that and I don't think he would call himself a Commercial Beekeeper. A Professionbal Beekeeper, perhaps, but size and what generates the income matters.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Mark makes a very good point. Sue Coby, Larry Conner, all the bee inspectors (well maybe not all) make their sole living on HoneyBees and none of them are commercial Beekeepers. Another of our favorites would be Kirsten Trainor in the ABJ. It is interesting to see all the opinions about commercial level beekeeping and NOT. Some have the mind thought of if you turn any profit then you are commercial. I have yet to turn an actual profit in my bee business. I guess with that mind thought im still a hobbiest. I do not keep bees for my only source of income. I work a regular 9 hour day when I am not playing with bees. Being that we do stuff for profit I do try and minimize my losses. Notice I didnt say maximize my profits??? When I start actually paying myself for my work and my wife's hard work maybe I will maximize my profits.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

My apologies to the commercial beekeepers here for chiming in, but as a sideliner with 40 hives going to 50 (maybe 60), striving to make a profit on my bees, no way would I ever consider myself a commercial beekeeper, UNLESS I made my living from keeping bees and selling honey and wax, and perhaps providing pollination services. Just seems like, if you don't make your living from it, then you're a hobby or sideline beekeeper, no matter how many colonies you have.
Regards,
Steven


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

honeyshack said:


> You sound suprised...thanks


Sorry a little slow on the reply, not surprised just thought it all made sense. Guess Sheri is right you can call yourself what you want but I am still gonna stick up for the side liners here. Most larger commercial operations went through a transitional sideline period until they could become self sufficient with their bees. If your bee investment isn't just fun money then seems to me you are commercial.


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## DewBee (Mar 24, 2011)

Took a gander at a dictionary, and this is what I saw:



> com·mer·cial _adj_
> *1. *Involved in work that is intended for the mass market.
> *2. *Of, relating to, or being goods, often unrefined, produced and distributed in large quantities for use by industry.
> *3. *Having profit as a chief aim.


Don't know if that helps any. 

In reading these posts, it seems some of us are confusing commercial with professional. We are all professional beekeepers if we derive ANY income from our bees. Based on the definition above, the only difference between commercial and professional is a matter of volume of product, not hives - though the two are not mutually exclusive.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

having your operation tagged with the term "commercial" shouldn't change the way the operation is run.
get past terminology and get back to beekeeping


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## bowebb09 (Dec 29, 2010)

As it is with anything;
if you pay to do it, then it is your hobby. (beekeeping is my hobby)
if you get paid to do it, then you are a professional. "sideliner", "mom and pop", "pick-up operator" are all just terms used to describe very small but professional ventures.


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## LT (Aug 17, 2006)

If you live in a tent and keep 25 hives and your sole income or barter from bees is what you live on you are considered commercial. Right?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Only in your own mind, perhaps. But, if you were, I would expect it wouldn't matter whether anyone else considered you commercial or not.


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## LT (Aug 17, 2006)

Some might think more of the tent man than the man who has 250


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Is the same true of the guy w/ 25 oil wells, compared to the guy w/ 250?

I don't know why we are still discussing this. Maybe I should stop.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I run around 150 hives (+ or -). I bottle and sell just about everything from my driveway, farmer's markets, and a couple of stores where I sell to them at wholesale prices. Profit is my motivation.

If I decided to quit marketing my honey, I could easily jump to 600 hives and simply barrel the honey and sell it in bulk. I don't think it's a numbers game, it more about mindset to me. It's not about work, for the beekeeper who enjoys what they do never goes to work.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Grant, you are a true blue sideliner......I am like Mark, I do not know why this thread has not died. Three hundred hives is and has always been considered the first level of commercial beekeeping. It has nothing to do with how much money you are making off 150 hives. I hope you make alot!! If you are offended that you are not considered a commercial beekeeper-do not be. We all have had to cross this threshold. Just work a little harder and you will make it. It is a nice rite of passage when you do. TED


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't know why we are still discussing this. Maybe I should stop.


I can't understand why anyone cares how many hives someone else thinks is required to be considered commercial.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> I can't understand why anyone cares how many hives someone else thinks is required to be considered commercial.


Me neither. I know I am a commercial beekeeper. And the only person that impresses is someone who doesn't own bees and doesn't know much about beekeeping. So, it means little. On the other hand, the IRS knows I am a Commercial Beekeeper. It says so on the forms when I file my Taxes on April 15th. When I submit my Profit or Loss from Farmimg. Ya don't do that, for sure you ain't no commercial bkpr. 

I gotta get back to plying my trade. Nucs to transfer, splits to make, honey to bottle, deliveries to make. And I gotta find that dead squirrel in the living room ceiling. See ya. Have a nice day. Suns shinin' here.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> And I gotta find that dead squirrel in the living room ceiling.


Don't you just hate it when that happens?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I know my wife does.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

This has been an awesome topic. It hasn't died yet. Obviously opinions vary largely amonst us beekeepers as to who is commercial and who is not commercial. I truly am glad I started this topic. Well like Mark previously stated about doing the trade. I just got back from a week long visitation with my girls and now its time to get them running honey here before the snow flies.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BMAC said:


> ... snow flies.


You do know that cursing is frowned upon on beesource, don't you?


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## CharlieN (Feb 23, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Suns shinin' here.


Send some down my way.... feel like I'm in Oregon again. We had nearly 6" of rain yesterday. Had a few hours of sun this morning and now back to storming again..


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Grant, you are a true blue sideliner...... Three hundred hives is and has always been considered the first level of commercial beekeeping. If you are offended that you are not considered a commercial beekeeper-do not be. We all have had to cross this threshold. Just work a little harder and you will make it. It is a nice rite of passage when you do. TED


All-righty then! The gauntlet has been thrown down. Next year at this time you will be calling me a first level commercial beekeeper!!!!!!

(Are there other levels I don't know about?)

No offense taken, just taking the challenge seriously!

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

I'm just wanting to put my two cents in on this, I'm totally new at this and only have five hives... Well the woodware for five hives, sadly I managed to pull the trigger on one hive before they even got off and running (they didn't even draw out enough comb to start laying or storing). In any case I absolutely do not consider myself to be a hobbyist. By no means am I a big commercial operation, nor am I making my income AT ALL from beekeeping YET. When I was going to school for the current trade that I am I didn't consider myself a hobbyist craftsmen I considered myself a craftsmen in training working on honing his skills. As a beekeeper who is going through the school of hard knocks and investing a good deal of time, money, and energy into learning I expect to give myself two years before I start turning a profit (similar to a two year trades school) hopefully equivalent to minimum wage or a bit more. At which point I would consider myself a beekeeper out of school and paying his dues. In five years I hope to be a beekeeper who is at a level of expertise that would make me comfortable (not erudite) in doing most anything I deemed necessary in keeping bees. At that five year mark I hope it to be profitable enough that I could retire from my current field and pursue this one. 

Thoughts?

_EDIT_

Just an after thought, I didn't ever really say I was a commercial beekeeper either, I think to much emphasis is getting put on that. I wouldn't consider myself a commercial chef, or a commercial mechanic. I'm just a beekeeper.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Moon;664933
Just an after thought said:


> I can cook a meal but that dosn't make me a chef I can tinker with a car but that dosn't make me a mechanic, If I know everything there is to know about bees but only have a few hives that dosn't make me a commercial beekeeper.
> 
> frazz


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you spend 3 days driving a 800 miles in total, drawing 4 loads of bees from the orchards, getting soaked to the skin, getting up at 4:30, getting stuck and unstuck, loosing trailer tail light from dragging rear end, and, oh yaeh, getting spring income, you just might be a Commercial Bkpr. But who's counting?


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## feltze (May 15, 2010)

Interesting, 

Industry standards - definition
Websters - definition
Business "for profit" - definition
Tax - definition
Ability to sustain as a sole source of income - definition

All different, all correct (IMO) All based on different basis of concepts.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Moon said:


> Thoughts?
> 
> Just an after thought, I didn't ever really say I was a commercial beekeeper either, I think to much emphasis is getting put on that. I wouldn't consider myself a commercial chef, or a commercial mechanic. I'm just a beekeeper.


Thoughts? Yeah. First off, go into any kitchen in the upscale part of NYC and you will find all sorts of Chefs and Cooks too. Don't ever make the mistake of confusing the two. They have sharp knives and know how to use them.

You may consider yourself "just a beekeeper", but you are just getting started. You are hardly yet a bkpr. Give it a while and see where it goes.

I applaud your emthusiasm and business planning, but reality bites. In due time you will find out what it's all about. "The best laid plans of mice and men..." John Stienbeck, I believe.

The terms "Commercial Beekeeper" and "Commercial Beekeeping" are Industry Terminology. They mean something to those of us who are in the Industry. You may be a bkpr. You may one day be a Comm. Bkpr. When you are one, it will matter. Til then, not so much.

I didn't catch what Trade you are in. But, if your were a Union Memeber of the Beekeeping Trade, you would be a selftaught Apprentice. Not that that is a real term in the Beekeeping Industry. Me? I'm, in the Old School Trades concept, a Master Beekeeper. I own my own Shop and operate it on a Commercial Basis. Just like the Master Cabinet Maker or Master Cooper or Master Wheelwright of the past. That's what makers one a Master. Knowing ones Trade and operating a commercial venture in that Trade. The other "Master Bkprs" are certified by a Diploma. No one issues cedrtificates to most of the Master Beekeepers I know.

Gotta go.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

That's what I am doing wrong.... NO Master Beekeeping Diploma . Well, I guess the family business plan is doomed to failure.

Crazy Roland Diehnelt
Linden Apiary,Est. 1852
5th gen. Beekeeper(Christina is 6th gen)


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

I didn't mention the trade cause the fact that I would be considered a master welder is irrelevant. The point I was trying to make was when I was in trade school I was not a 'Hobbyist Welder' who was seriously considering becoming a sideliner until I could make enough money to become a full time welder! I was just (and still am) a welder. I think the term is more important to the people who like the title.

Oh, and I'm anti-union


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

i understand the need for a division between hobby and commercial. And since it takes almost or more than 300 hives to be self sustaining, i concede to it being the mark for a commercial operation....IF that is the only ag commodity which is done.

I said it before and will say it again. I am an commercial ag producer. I might not meet the 300 colony base, however bees are not all that we do. We make our living from the farm. We are diversified so that if one commodity drops in income, the other will hold us alfoat. Something about not all eggs in one basket.
Bees and bee by-products account for 65% of our gross farm receipts, cattle 45%. Next year it could be the other way around if beef keeps climbing. Our off farm income is equivalent to about 7% of our total gross income.
We make our living from the land. We work hard, watch the weather take out our crops, fight disease and nutrition problems, pay wild vet bills when needed, spend more on fuel that on our house, and have insurance on every single even our crops. We spend 6 weeks with about 3 hours sleep a night so we can calve cows in the late winter early spring, we work land all hours of the day and night, fence to keep preditors out and animals confined (both bees and cows), and we cull all livestock based on performance. We treat bees and cows like livestock and realize they are there to make our living. 
Farmer/Rancher/Beekeeper is our livelihood
I think that qualifies for being commercial.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Moon said:


> I was just (and still am) a welder.


So, apparently, all I have to do to have the right to call myself a Welder is to enroll in Welding School and attend one day of classes.

What do you want the distinction to be? Or, are you against distinctions in total? I'm a Prpfessional Beekeeper. You hardly have had bees. I may be a semi professional driver, but I am not a professional semi driver.

When you were in school, learning your Trade, you were a Student. You may have been a Welding Student, but from my pov, you were a Student, not a Welder. Is someone attending Medical School a Doctor from day one? Or not until they Graduate?

You seem insulted by the term Commercial Bkpr. What's up w/ that?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

honeyshack said:


> Farmer/Rancher/Beekeeper is our livelihood. I think that qualifies for being commercial.


Okay, though someone may disagree w/ you 'bout that. Looks to me as though you are a Diverse Income Source Farmer/Rancher/Beekeeper. Other than here, do you introdduce yourself to new acquaintances as a Commercial Beekeeper, when they ask you what you do for a living? Whatever is fine by me. For what that is worth.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

My buddie Jeff farms 800 acres of Tobacco (That is Huge), he also farms 2000 acres of cotton. He calls himself a tobacco farmer because the majority of his income is from Tobacco. Honeyshack sounds like a commercial beek, talks like one.... heck she probably walks like one! In this situation I'd say call yourself what you want.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

hpm, how does a beekeeper wallk? With a slight ache to the back somedays?
sqkcrk, when someone asks what i do, it depends on the setting. If i am at a cattlemen's meeting, I a cattle producer. If at a bee meeting its a beekeeper. To a person who is unknown in agriculture, I say i am a farmer, or a farmer's wife. When they ask what we farm, I tell them cows and bees..or is it bees and cows...


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

honeyshack said:


> hpm, how does a beekeeper wallk? With a slight ache to the back somedays?
> .


Yea... kinda bent over from carrying 90 lb deeps of honey. You don't make your husband do that do you?


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> So, apparently, all I have to do to have the right to call myself a Welder is to enroll in Welding School and attend one day of classes.


Again I think you're missing my point, you don't even have to attend a single day of Welding School. All you have to do is strike an arc and you would be considered a welder. By the mere fact that you are welding you obtain the title of welder. Obviously there's a difference between good welders and poor welders but there isn't any distinction between someone who tries to do it and fails and someone who tries to do it and succeeds they are one and the same simply by the act of DOING. Hence keeping bees whether commercially or for a hobby or as a sideliner they're still a beekeeper. Which comes full circle back to what I was saying, it doesn't matter what you're doing you're just a beekeeper.



sqkcrk said:


> You seem insulted by the term Commercial Bkpr. What's up w/ that?


Again I think you miss my point, and in turn are starting to personalize this. In no way am I _insulted_ by the term Commercial Bkper. Nor am I trying to take anything away from anyone who busts their butt day in and day out working ungodly hours and dealing with a plethora of problems and unforseen _unkowns_. I just think the whole debate over whether or not you can be considered _commercial_ or whether your just a hobbyist, or a sideliner is pretty comical. Is it really that big of a deal? Does there need to be a definitive explanation set so that people can classify each various group and then ridicule them accordingly? 

_ Of course you don't know what you're talking about! You're just a hobbyist, I take care of 'x' amount of hives a day which is far to complex for your simple hobbyist understanding to even grasp! _

At the end of the day all I really meant to convery was I think the guy that has one thousand hives can still learn something from the guy that only keeps two. I was merely trying to suggest that rather than try to seperate, classify, and discriminate against one another perhaps it's a debate we could lay to rest; swallow some pride, and simply concede that we're all drawn towards these incredible insects for different reasons and anyone who keeps a single hive be considered a beekeeper.

On a side note, honeyshack I've got a huge amount of respect for you and your hubby for the work you guys do and your obvious passion for doing it just by the tone in your writings when you describe even the worse of time right along with the best of times. May God bless you richly for having such a rich outlook on life =)


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Honeyshack - numbers aside, you have a commercial mindset. That is good enough for me.

Moon, with all respect, around here there are welders, and wannabes. I believe the term welder, comes from weld, to join together. Just because someone strikes an arc, or lights a torch, does not mean he joined the metals. For example, again with respect, how are you at welding pot metal(zinc die cast)?
Although it is possible that a commercial beekeeper could learn from a person that has only a few hives, is it useful information? The chances are much greater that the person with a few hives could learn something of value from the commercial beekeeper. 

Crazy Roland




Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

This line of thinking must be pay back for all the Posts I made in TreatmentFree. 

We don't ask that Non-Comms stay out of this Section, but it feels like the Newbee is tryin' to tell the Commercials how to act and think. Tho, it is his own pov and he is entitled to it.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

hpm08161947 said:


> Yea... kinda bent over from carrying 90 lb deeps of honey. You don't make your husband do that do you?


He helps when he is not making hay. Usually I am too tired to put it into the honey house at the end of the day. So he always does that. That power cart we have for moving honey into the trailer only responds to male attention. When i use it, I seem to knock over hives in the yard. S he get off the tractor when i am done a yard and comes to load the honey. He helps alot!

Thanks Crazy Roland!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

honeyshack said:


> He helps when he is not making hay.


I always thought it took two to make hay.  Or do I have my euphamisms mixed up?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

honeyshack said:


> That power cart we have for moving honey into the trailer only responds to male attention.


I have a power cart too... his name is Matthew  26 year old piece of heavy equipment. I have noticed he responds rapidly to female attention. Anyway I am glad you are not all bentover with over stretched arms. 

Takes two to tango??


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

We have had a hundred different answers to this question. At the end of the day, what does it matter what we call ourselves? Commercial beekeeping is a fairly small world with only one or two degrees of separation. Most of the commercial beeks here would have a pretty good handle on who is or isn't, if they cared to sort it out, which most don't.
The rest can call themselves what they want.

The focus of this forum is to deal with questions concerning commercial beekeeping, not to engage in a debate on semantics. 
Time to let this dead horse die, I think.
Sheri


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