# Dealings with Long Creek Apiaries



## USCBeeMan

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Small claims court. But it's call Chancery court in TN.


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Thanks for the info. I've emailed the beekeepers assoc. pres. down there hoping to apply a little pressure, filed a complaint with the Fed Trade Comm, filed a complaint with the BBB, and tomorrow I'm calling the Russian Honeybee Breeders Assoc. along with the consumer protection agency. My nephew groaned when I told him that I was dealing with this guy.. he had the same problem with him last year. 

Wouldn't I have to get a lawyer to go to court? Would it be worth it for the $400.00 I've got tied up with the packaged bees? I'll call the court house tomorrow and see how I go about filing. Thanks again and pass the word about Long Creek.


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## Camp9

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

There not part of the russian assn any more.

Camp


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I'll have to check their website again because I think they are still claiming to be a Russian breeder. Just thought maybe the RBA could put some pressure on this guy.


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## beyondthesidewalks

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Here in Texas you don't need a lawyer in small claims court. Technically, you don't ever need a lawyer but that doesn't work out too well for those who try it. My neighbor did a small claims suit himself with a local transmission house. Worked out well for him but it took FOREVER. Don't expect instant gratification from the court system.

I"ve always tried to pick up my bees at a local bee breeder of national fame. It's a long drive but I think it's worth it. It's better for the bees and you're sure to get your product when you pay.

I don't buy package bees anymore. All of my increase comes from swarms, cutouts and raising my own from splits. I think that is better for several reasons:

1) It's hard to get screwed out of money when it doesn't cost you money.

2) You get local queens/bees adapted to your area.

3) In the case of swarms and cutouts, you get feral bees that have been survivors to all that can harm the bees lately.

Not meaning to slam bee/queen breeders but I really don't understand why we don't breed our own bees. I think it works out better in the long run. I do understand that a commercial operation probably needs to buy packages but the small time hobbyist/sideliner really shouldn't. I also believe that Nucs are a much better deal in the long run.


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## dcross

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229183&highlight=creek

Still waiting for my queens that were supposed to ship a year ago. 

I believe he joined the board as beemaster01 to explain how the weather was the culprit...


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## bnatural

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Wow. I got two packages from them last year. They were late, weather was blamed, but they built up into three deeps, overwintered the best of my hives and are the only ones to produce any honey so far this very wet summer.

Just received four queens from them last week as promised. All came marked and clipped (even though I did not ask for either). Queens are all very dark and seemed to be very healthy. Released them into the nucs yesterday. Will check in a few days to make sure they are laying.

Have found them pleasant to do business with. Sorry to hear others have had so many problems.

Bill


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

You must be one of the lucky ones ! I know the Russian stock is great.. my brother has them and so does my nephew. Long Creek was on Beesourse as a breeder of Russians so that's why I went with them. When I told my Nephew he just groaned. He had dealt with them the year before and waited almost a year to get some of his money back and cut a deal with them for the rest in trade for queens. The nephew has hives he can split.. I didn't have that luxury. Between my brother, myself and the nephew we have about 65 hives, so we aren't really backyard beekeepers. 

I've got a call into my lawyer. We'll see where it takes me. 

The guy was nice enough... just too many excuses to suit me and when I asked for my money, it was no problem until I never received a check then things got a little testy. That's when I got the BBB involved.


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

We do alot of "house calls" and swarm pickups. Contracted with Terminx if they get a call we go out. Have quite a few hives and the ferrals do a dandy job for us. Just wanted to get some Russian stock and he was listed as a breeder in Bee Source.


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I like your quote there! I think I have the number for the Russian Bee Breeders Assoc. Going to be contacting them to see if we can't use them to put some pressure on this guy. Then there's my lawyer who will be in contact with him.


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I have contacted the Consumer Protection Agency and have filed a complaint against Long Creek Apiaries and David Winters owner. Would you be willing to file a compalint also? It looks like he's falsely advertizing himself as a Russian Bee Breeder belonging to the Assoc. That will get him trouble with this agency along with the Federal Trade Comm. I've also filed a complaint there too. Talked to the President of the Russian Honeybee Breeders Assoc. today and he said he was glad someone is going after this guy. He wouldn't comment further except that he was no longer a part of the Assoc. because of his dealings. Told me to "go girl" and that's what I intend to do.


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## Sundance

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

If you mailed the check you may be able to
use the USPS as it is construed as mail fraud.
Contact your post master.

Also...... Add their name to the "tags" for the
thread and it will be more likely to show up in
Google searches (I think)


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Not sure how to use the tag to add him to it. I'll have to go down to the Post Office in the morning and see what the Post Master has to say. Thanks for the tip  I have all the time in the world to be a pain in this guys back side... he should have sent me back my money like he said he would, and I would have given him a thumbs up and there would be no problem, but nooooooo, he had to go and tick me off. I've read some of his posts along with others that have had good and bad dealings with him. I suppose I'm one of those "hot heads out there" trying to ruin his reputation. All I can say is let the agencies out there be his judge and jury and I will rest my case. Thanks again for the tip.


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## Charlotte

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I also had very bad dealings with this place. Finally got my bees late, only after I unrelentlessly called this guy morning, noon & night. I really think the ONLY reason I got them was because I kept hounding this guy. Sorry to hear about your bad luck. They won't ever have business from me again. As far as the bees go, they built up ok, but my queen seems to lay a lot more drones than I like & they are alittle more aggressive. I did not get any honey off them, as I received them pretty late. I am satisfied that they will have enough to overwinter. Hopefully next year they will do well...


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Well, I've filed with the Consumer Protection Agency there a few weeks ago and haven't heard any more from them. Did get an opportunity to talk to the Pres. of the Russian Honeybee Breeders Assoc about them and he was't too happy with him either. Not much he could do since Long Creek is not a part of that organization. I'm filing with the USPS soon... mail fraud. Not sure how he stays in business doing the kind of business he does. Had the PA state bee inspector here on Thurs checking my bees and told him about this dude and suggested that he doesn't run their add in the newsletter anymore... so, that will be one source he won't be able to advertise in. Wish we could get Besource to pull his ad too. I ran into a young fella about 21 who dealt with him and was told that his bees would get to him next year and when this kid wanted a refund the guy told him to read the web site policy.. which claims no particular time frame that bees would be delivered and therefore didn't have to send them until next year "depending on the weather conditions" for next year. So, I've asked this kid to do what I've been doing .... filing complaints.. and just maybe we'll get noticed and Long Creek will have to cough up some money. You can bet that we won't be dealing with him anymore either or anyone else that we know that is after Russian stock. Glad your bees are doing okay for you... might want to keep checking those drone cells.. possibly looking for a replacement queen in the spring.


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## Cedar Hill

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Some years back, had a very similar problem in the very vicinity where yours is coming from. My source of trouble (cashing my check and not sending the packages) was in the Smokey Mountain ....... Went through the same contacts you have, however the best one was the state's attorney general's office. Everything has to be sent in writing and in detail. Took a very long time but the fellow came through and the bees although much too late in the season, finally came. Turned out to be some of the very best bees I've had.


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I have also filed with the State's Atty General.. and you're right.. a lot of detail. I did this on line and in writting also. We have some Russian stock and I know how well they do, just wanted to get a few more hives of them, but after the dealings with this guy, I don't want them from him... just my money back to go elsewhere for them.


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## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

To all 1000+ readers of this thread: Please count the the number of different people on this thread that are complaining. *FIVE!* That is *FIVE* out of hundreds of satisfied customers. It is sad that *FIVE* people can have such influence with only one side of the story. There are others on the tread offering advice based on one side of the story. I have no complaints with them. Such is the double edge of the internet.

We took orders based on our projected capability determined by normal weather. We went from an extreme drought to a surplus in just a few months. Our quality standards demand that we determine that all bees that we ship are the best on the market. I am sorry that some of you feel that bees should be shipped on time irregardless of quality. They did exactly what you wanted them to do, then you bad mouth the company when the stock is bad! We will not intentionally ship bad stock. Period! All our policies are spelled out on our website address that is listed in our ads. Read it!

All I ask is that you have both sides of the story before you make a decision about a company. I do not feel that is unreasonable.


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## BozoBee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> To all 1000+ readers of this thread: Please count the the number of different people on this thread that are complaining. *FIVE!* That is *FIVE* out of hundreds of satisfied customers.


Is this a number you can reference, hundreds of satisfied customers? I agree we should check both sides of the story. So here, if any if you satified costumers read this, please post....... we will gladly hear a postive response. 

Of the 1000+ readers of this post, most are just looking for a few basic things: where to go/not go, what actions are taken if a problem arises, and if this problem has a pattern. I have no intention of buying from Long Creek not because of this post, but because they are out of my area. I will buy locally here in Montana. But what I have learned from this post is what options are availible to me if there is a problem. Not here to sink his business but to learn, like most of the 1000+ readers. And who knows, maybe a few of that magical number of 'hundreds of satisfied' customers learn as well.

I think the major error on Long Creek is what seems to be the complete failure to communicate with his customer base. If you cash someones check the very least you can do is inform them of the status of their order. Seriously, I don't blame them for filing fraud one bit. Long Creek could have simply sent a letter or email explaining the current situation, stuff like the status of their order, reasons for delays, an expected timeline because of the delays. But if the Vendor fails to produce such information, then it seems to me they are just being lazy. If you can't keep your customers informed and give them that second side of the story, it is your own fault for being a poor business person. A footnote on a page of the site is not activily taking care of your customers needs, it's a scapegoat.

And to reference the FIVE number, if a resturaunt had FIVE cases of salmonella, if a doctor had FIVE malpractice suits, or if you bought FIVE defective cars from the same dealer... how would you expect anyone to respond? Sure they may have had 'hundreds' of satisfied customers.... but what matters is how the business deals with it, actively.


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## belt152

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> To all 1000+ readers of this thread: Please count the the number of different people on this thread that are complaining. *FIVE!* That is *FIVE* out of hundreds of satisfied customers. It is sad that *FIVE* people can have such influence with only one side of the story. There are others on the tread offering advice based on one side of the story. I have no complaints with them. Such is the double edge of the internet.
> 
> We took orders based on our projected capability determined by normal weather. We went from an extreme drought to a surplus in just a few months. Our quality standards demand that we determine that all bees that we ship are the best on the market. I am sorry that some of you feel that bees should be shipped on time irregardless of quality. They did exactly what you wanted them to do, then you bad mouth the company when the stock is bad! We will not intentionally ship bad stock. Period! All our policies are spelled out on our website address that is listed in our ads. Read it!
> 
> All I ask is that you have both sides of the story before you make a decision about a company. I do not feel that is unreasonable.



Seems like the logical solution would be to simply return the persons money if you don't have the bees. Why would that be such a hard thing to do? It would save you from having to scramble to put some packages together and would save the buyer from having to post their bad dealings with you for 1,000's of people to read. 

With today's internet outlets and forums news of bad dealings spread like wildfire. I would gladly refund one persons money instead of having 1,000's more potential buyers read of this dealing. :doh:


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## Camp9

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Communication is the biggest part of what's going on. I bought two packages in 08 from long creek, was told they couldn't ship until the spring of 09. Got my two packages this spring with no problems. After installing the packages I went to release the queens 5 days later, one queen was dead. I know that the chances that the queen dieing may have just been one of those things that wasn't long creeks fault or mine, but I wrote and asked just that question. I figured if they were having problems with a few queens they'd want to know, or at lease give me a their 2 cents worth. I never got a response. I think most problems with package producers is you have to have constant communcation, even on the small requests such as mine to remain in business. If it's too much of a pain, which dealing with the public is, then you better find another way to make money. Hope all of you, both sides can get together and work this out. 

Camp


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## Barry

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

This is the one detail with a lot of the negative postings about suppliers that I just don't understand. The common thread is a buyer sends a supplier money for a product, supplier keeps the money but doesn't deliver the goods for various (legitimate?) reasons. Note to vendors: Return the money if you can't deliver in a timely fashion!!! Don't suppliers understand that it's a double insult to not get the product AND to have your money kept by the vendor? :scratch:


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## Camp9

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Yes!! or hold the check until your ready to ship. 

Camp


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## Barry

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> All our policies are spelled out on our website address that is listed in our ads. Read it!


When I read your policies, it feels to me that the buyer assumes the lions share of the risk. I understand that you deal with customers that you will never see face to face, but a consumer always wants to feel the vendor/supplier holds some, if not the larger, portion of the risk of doing business. I do residential remodeling. I often don't bill the client till the job is finished. I assume the risk and trust that a client will be more than willing to pay for a job well done. This requires a lot of communication during the job to make sure we are all on the same page. In all the years I've worked this way, at most, I've "lost" a few hundred dollars. I acquire satisfied customers that do repeat business and they recommend me to all their friends. Just some food for thought.


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

btw, this is actually a law... you cannot cash a check unless the product is on its way. He seems to think he has done nothing wrong there. Using my money and not sending bees or refund is "stealing".


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I also run a small business and I know your customer comes "first" and satisfied customers are repeat customers. I wonder how many repeat customers Long Creek has. Maybe I should post and ask


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## dcross

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> We took orders based on our projected capability determined by normal weather.
> 
> I am sorry that some of you feel that bees should be shipped on time irregardless of quality.




I placed my order in early Aug. of '08 and was told that my queens would ship the following week. How on earth can the weather delay them by over A YEAR?

How about the refund I was promised in fall of '08? Is the bad weather holding that up as well?


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## karu

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



Camp9 said:


> Yes!! or hold the check until your ready to ship.
> 
> Camp


I guess I'll step in to be a devil's advocate. I've used similar services many times to say that in this type of business nobody will hold your check until they are ready to ship. In fact, I know someone who gave couple thousands deposit to a contractor to build a porch and they showed up the next season, they showed up when it was convenient for them... I've been ordering my birds for three seasons now and you have to place your order well in advance and they charge you right away, not when they are ready to ship...Could be some kind of a deposit, but no, they want all of it, and then you have to wait and hope that mother nature will work in your favor and the chicks will hatch when you want them... I've used LCA this year too, funny enough I tried to find some feedback before I placed an order in Nov./Dec of 08 and there was nothing negative, except that someone was saying that that they did not get their order until the following year. And I still placed my order. And I've got my 2 packages in June, late, but I've got them. I was able to get in touch with them via phone and e-mail, not instantaneously though, but I did get the weather updates, and finally the bees arrived in a nice condition, I was really pleased. On the website they are saying "Refunds for canceled orders will be sent at the first possible date." I guess the interpretation of the 1st possible date can be stretched. :scratch:
At the end I can say that I would possible order from them again. There is a local big supplier around here and I don't know how they deal with the refunds, but they are not the most reliable either, and the quality of the bees I was told not the greatest, and when you call them to find out the status of the frame order (not even talking about the bees !) they say - "we don't know when our supplier will send them, couple weeks maybe."...How is that ? I guess the nature of a beekeeping business is such that you either use them or loose them, there is not that much competition going on, so they can do pretty much as they pleased, you are the one who needs them..Last year I was late with my order locally, so I had to drive 3 hours to Boston to get my bees last year, this year I bought from LCA and my neighbor (now I know where I can get it). But some locals will not even call you back, and if you want russian bees you are out of luck, because it is also hard to find someone who will want to ship them. So we take chances...:lookout:


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## dcross

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

And once again, nothing.


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## magnet-man

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



piperspuppy said:


> btw, this is actually a law... you cannot cash a check unless the product is on its way.


I would like to see that law, because as far as I know there isn't one. I have a number of suppliers that I have to prepay before they even begin to process my order. I had to write a check for over $1,500 to Pratt Industries and wait for the check to clear before they would even schedule my order for production. Total time before I got my boxes, 5 weeks. It takes 3 to 4 weeks to get zippers if my supplier is out of them. I still have to prepay. Had to prepay over $5,000 to the fabric mill in order for them to schedule my fabric run for 5 weeks in the future. 

I have people that send me a personal check for a suit or jacket and I hold the check until it ships. I have over $1,500 worth of bad checks that have been turned over to the collection agency this year. To expect a seller to hold your check until they ship is not realistic. Companies don't stay in business if they don't ship. Long Creek sounds like it has some problems and has obviously lost some business. A consumer who writes a bad check is awfully hard to collect from. Yes it is illegal but the DA has bigger fish to fry and the Post Office is after sellers that practice mail fraud not the little guy that writes a bad check and won't honor it.

By the way two of those checks are from Beesource members.

Well my rant is over with. :applause:


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## beemandan

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



magnet-man said:


> By the way two of those checks are from Beesource members.


Sad to say, Beesource folks are pretty much like everyone else. Most are 'good uns' but there are surely those few who aren't.

Maybe you should post their names. It seems like a 'turn about is fair play'.


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## magnet-man

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I could but I don't think it is good business and likely against the rules. I think they sent checks in good faith and later had economic hardships that caused the checks to be returned. Just wish I could get them to send the items back. Both have promissed to make good on the checks but need time because of job loss. But for the grace of god go I.


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## beemandan

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



magnet-man said:


> I could but I don't think it is good business and likely against the rules.


Maybe.... but it shouldn't be. Its ok to discuss a supplier that takes your money but doesn't deliver the goods. It would seem like it should be ok to do the same for folks who take the merchandise but don't pay..or are unwilling return the goods.


magnet-man said:


> I think they sent checks in good faith and later had economic hardships that caused the checks to be returned. But for the grace of god go I.


You sound like you're a good hearted fellow. Best of luck to ya.


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## magnet-man

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Something funny happened. Both of them called me and said they were sending checks this Friday. :thumbsup: Also received a check today for a custom jacket that I made months ago. I must have good Karma.


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## G3farms

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

The local Co-Op here will make a copy of bad checks and post them for all to see at the cash registers. That would be very embarrising, but people should be able to keep better books than that.

Magnet-man, I am glad to hear that things worked out for you.

I know nothing about Long Creek but sounds like he needs someone to run his customer service department, people only want answers to questions and can kind of expect "some" delay, but not months on end. My opinion of sending the check back when they can get around to it is just crappy business practice. 

G3


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## magnet-man

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



G3farms said:


> My opinion of sending the check back when they can get around to it is just crappy business practice.
> G3


I agree that is poor practice.


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I think you're right.. he needs someone to be answering the phones. Bottom line here is he's claiming to have a cash flow problem that shouldn't be "my" problem, yet he's using my money because he has a cash flow problem.. anyone see a problem with this ?????


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## ScadsOBees

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



magnet-man said:


> Something funny happened. Both of them called me and said they were sending checks this Friday. :thumbsup: Also received a check today for a custom jacket that I made months ago. I must have good Karma.


Awesome! Sometimes patience and understanding will work wonders. I had noticed that you didn't badmouth anybody, rather a more disappointed understanding that perhaps was read and then remembered and repaid.

Too often our defensiveness or offense at being slighted can prevent us from working issues out.

But then there are some people that will take advantage of that too...


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## G3farms

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Sounds like he has a pretty good thing going, but just has grown too large for him to manage single handed. You have to admire someone for going into business for themselves, it is very hard and worrysome for sure (I know this first hand). The customers will always come first right along side of your creditors and labor force. The owner is always last to be paid and if he did his homework correctly there will be money for him and the company,

Like I said earlier I know nothing of him but with a few bad dealings he will cut his own throat. I do hope he can get it all lined out and be successful in his endeviors. Beeks are getting fewer and fewer and we need all we can get.

Scads that was well put.

G3


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## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I also sent a good chunk of money to them and got the story of "worst year in thirty years" and still have no refund on russian packages! Please advise as to how to proceed, from other beeks, who had success in getting your money or bees or whatever can be salvaged Thanks


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

After he told me I would get a refund... um... but he said he never told me "when" I would get it. So, after a couple of months, I went to the BBB of N. Tenn and filed a complaint... did little if anything. Next step was to file a complaint with the Federal Trade Comm... Note that they are not required to do anything just adding his name to the list of bad interstate business. We are presently going through the Atty Generals office of Consumer Protection. They have a little more bite. So far the correspondance has been the same... when he gets the money, he'll send me mine. According to him, he has a "cash flow" problem. He must not have spent my money wisely.... duh. If I get the same ol same ol response from him this time.. my next course is United States Postal Service for mail fraud. He advertised in the American Bee Journal which came through the mail, took my money and never sent me my product.. constitutes mail fraud. I offered him a fair solution to this problem by letting him know that I am a small business and I can except credit cards so payment should be easy... right? Just wonder how many more he has stiffed this way. Good luck to you... hope you recover your money. I'm still fighting for mine...and fight I will. I'd start filing complaints.. maybe start with the Atty Gen. Office of Consumer Protection. I'll keep ya all posted as how things are going.


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I know all about being in business... haven't taken a pay in nearly three years... everything goes back into the business and my customers do come first. We had a bad honey production year, but I didn't take orders, cash their checks and say, oops... it's been a bad year for honey, so sorry, I'll get your honey to you next spring. Between our family we probably only have about 60+ hives... mostly all ferral from bee jobs, but it's enough to keep us busy. We do have quite a few of the Russians from splits we've done. Bigest reason I wanted packages was to get some in my own bee yard, but when my brother heard who I was dealing with he just groaned. He had dealings with him the year before and played hell getting his money so finally cut a deal with the guy for some queens and some cash. Guess I'll just have to hound my brother for some queen cells this spring !


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## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

What is scaring me now is to hear about all the other people waiting for a refund, not just me. How can anyone take all this money in advance, spend it, then say there is a cash flow problem. We all have a cash flow problem in this business but you still pay your debts to stay in business. Also an offer to give me bees in the next season won't work if they go out of business. We should contact the bee journal and let them know Long Creek is commiting fraud with their advertising in the journal so no one else is added to the list.


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## G3farms

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Very sorry to hear of all of the people who got taken. It is not right what he did and he should pay out. Sounds like a road trip to me and pick up some of his (or would that be your) hives.

Check one more thing out for the state of Tennessee, and I would not be sure where to find the info at. I have heard that in TN three of his unpaid creditors can file bankrupcy for him. If that is the case he would have to list his assets and if you could get a judgement against him you could pick up some of his said assets. 

Best of luck to those who were taken.

G3


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

He's already said in the reply from the BBB that he may just do that and that I would get nothing if he does. I'll try to google some things or call the Consumer Protection folks and ask about that.


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I'm only an 11 hour drive from his place and my brother said "let's go... seems like a good day for a drive" He was selling 10 frame hives "full of honey" for $150.00... gee, I would take a few of those.. how come he didn't think to offer that to me... or maybe they were queenless or better yet, beeless. Good idea about the Bee Journal..just checked and they say and I quote "The publisheres cannot guarantee advertisements in this magazine, but we ask that any advertising complaints be made known to us, so we can further check the company's reliability" There is a phone number and I'm going to call them. Let you know what they say.


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## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Back to you... Just called the American Bee Journal and they have re-instated his ad because he had taken care of the people that went to them to complain. I am a new complaint so they are going to see about pulling his ad from their magazine. What they need and this is for [*B]"everyone out there who has not been satisfied"*_ to contact them at 1-888-922-1293 and they will see that he satisfies your complaint or they won't let him run an ad in their magazine. So bottom line is there anyone out there that has ongoing issues with Long Creek Apiaries !!!_


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## G3farms

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

good job piper sounds like you found a little crack to get a good foot hold.

Wonder where else he might advertise.


----------



## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Thanks piper, I just talked to Marta at ABJ and she had me send an e-mail with my story, and what is owed me, and she will not run his ad until our problems are addressed and taken care of. Thanks for chasing this down and finding this squeeze play. As far as other advertisers , as of yesterday they were listed in this beesource for bees for sale...I think we found a ***** in the armour.Piper let me know if you make that trip and what you see... because that thought crossed my mind, to make a road trip and get at least something, although I'm up here in the pinky finger of michigan, I am not getting nothing for my money that is if this ABJ thing does'nt work.....Thanks again for making that call....


----------



## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I'm dancin'... I'm dancin' Got the mail today and had a check from Long Creek Apiary in it !!! Now, we'll see if the check is good. Holding on to it until Monday before depositing.. calling the bank direct to see. Gotta run to my second job.. good luck ev1 Keep in touch !!


----------



## dcross

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I have recieved my refund.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Oh, yea of little faith! I had informed everyone, including those here posting on this forum, that refunds will be made. Those that have not received their refunds yet will get their money. By the way, posts here had nothing to do with refunds as other people that were due money have also received their refunds. We will be waiting to see if those that have complained in other venues will be as quick to inform them that the situation has bee resolved. I certainly won't hold my breath until that happens!


----------



## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Its very incouraging to here these success storys, congrats to you folks who got their refunds.... I always liked david and his conversations that I had with him. I just was getting upset with the long delay and total lack of any communication as to what the situation was and any time frame as to when to expect a refund... I hope to see mine soon... I'l let you all know.....


----------



## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Thank You Beemaster01... I will be contacting the Consumer Protection folks tomorrow to let them know that our case has been resolved. I can't say that I'm sorry for doing what I thought needed to be done. I think you should really consider holding onto checks until you are ready to ship and then cash them prior to shipping.. it would make a lot of people happier that way. Communication is key to any business.. we heard a lot of folks complain about that too. Good Luck to you, sir. I also hope you understand that I won't be buying bees from you in the future.


----------



## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I am looking back at the posts of pipersupply and dcross and their refunds, and the reply of beemaster01 saying all would get their refunds on 9-27-09. I have not seen a refund, or a reply, to a e-mail where I asked for at least partial timely payments. Has anyone else seen any money? I was told because of my actions in calling ABJ I must now wait till spring to get my packages...maybee..and that this was going to cause pain for many, by taking away their advertising. I'm sorry I'm not the bad guy,I sent money, that is borrowed money that I'm paying interest on,that I am rightfully entitled to. I have been very patient and understanding of David's situation,but when I get absolutely no communication to an offer, of a possible solution, my patience has run out, and yes I am going to post this for thousands to see..I'm just want to know..are you out there beemaster 01?


----------



## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Sorry to hear that you did not get your refund as he told you he would. If you looked back at the posts, then you know that I went through the BBB of Eastern Tenn with a complaint, then the Federal Trade Comm. and filed a complaint with the Atty Gen. office in Tenn. My next step would have been the US Postal Service for mail fraud. I meant business. Oh, and "who" told you that because of your actions with ABJ that you would have to wait for your refund ????? I complained to them also and they were suppose to pull his ad... just too many people complaining about this guy. I'm afraid he will continue to do bad business and it just might reflect on the ABJ supporting him through advertisments. Did you talk to Marta? and what did she say.
I just know that I will not do business with him again and through word of mouth or this forum hopefully no one else will either. Good luck and let me know what you find.


----------



## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, ABJ suported me and others who contacted them, it was implied by beemaster 01 that by stopping his advertising, I (and perhaps others?) would help to put him out of business if he could not advertise. I was then told that I would not get a refund and would have to wait till spring 2010 to get bees for money...


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

No bees will be shipped to anyone complaining here. It would just be another chance to post a negative remark. It is tempting to take a year or two off (take a long vacation).


----------



## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Then you really don't need to be in business, sir. And I will make sure these people out here know about your dealings and where they can go to get the help they need to fight back.. This is a FREE COUNTRY with our RIGHT to FREE SPEECH. How dare you tell this person that because he filed a complaint that you're going to play God and not send him what he is owed. You sir make my blood boil. And sir, you will have another fight on your hands with everyone who you have screwed over. That sir is not a threat... and the threatening post of yours will be forwarded to the American Bee Journal and that is a "promise" sir.


----------



## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Listen, don't go through all the channels I did... just go direct to the United States Postal Service... He advertized in the Am Bee Journal and you sent him money which he neither refunded or sent product... that is a "Federal" offense and he will have the Government to deal with then. I was just being "nice" by not going there first. Don't be nice.. .he doesn't deserve it. And I would call and talk to Marta at the magazine and tell her what he just said.. that "anyone" complaining on these posts will not be sent money or bees until 2010. I posted back to him so you should see that post come up. Let me know how you make out... I am 100% behind you and anyone else that he screws over.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> No bees will be shipped to anyone complaining here. It would just be another chance to post a negative remark. It is tempting to take a year or two off (take a long vacation).


Where did this message say anyone will not be paid? I wish to apoligize to the readers of this forum, I didn't know that anyone was going to make things up and mislead you.


----------



## magnet-man

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Beemaster01, I have been watching this thread with a great deal of interest. Beesource is a great place to improve ones image even if a complaint is posted. It all depends upon how you handle the complaint. Read this thread and see how a complaint about slow service was turned into a positive thread. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232855 The person who posted the complaint is still a customer. Also I believe how I handle the complaint is partially reponsible for the following thread of very good feedback. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234303

I would also take a look at part of your web site. Wording such as "We DO NOT guarantee a ship date ..." comes across as very vinegary and defensive where " We regret we are unable to guarantee a ship date" sounds much more customer driven. 

I will give you the benifit of the doubt and order some Russian queens from you. I have always wanted to try a few Russians.

Just my two cents.


----------



## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Your quote.. "no bees will be shipped to anyone complaining here" Well, you still have their money... same thing. You are threatening people... not good.


----------



## Dean

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



magnet-man said:


> I will give you the benifit of the doubt and order some Russian queens from you. I have always wanted to try a few Russians.


I placed my order late in January. I received my package in June. The bees are doing well. I will be ordering Russians from Dave again!


----------



## KeyBeeper

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> Oh, yea of little faith! I had informed everyone, including those here posting on this forum, that refunds will be made. Those that have not received their refunds yet will get their money. By the way, posts here had nothing to do with refunds as other people that were due money have also received their refunds. We will be waiting to see if those that have complained in other venues will be as quick to inform them that the situation has bee resolved. I certainly won't hold my breath until that happens!


I live a short drive from your apiary and WAS looking forward to buying some Russians from you. Not going to happen now. To say I've soured on your "customer service" is an understatement. I'll pay to have them shipped from elsewhere.


----------



## dcross

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> No bees will be shipped to anyone complaining here. It would just be another chance to post a negative remark. It is tempting to take a year or two off (take a long vacation).



Complaining here is the only thing that got me a refund.


----------



## Radical Bee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



dcross said:


> Complaining here is the only thing that got me a refund.


I do wish i had found this thread 15 months ago before placing my order with Long Creed Apiary. 

After seeing my complaint on another thread he has contacted me about ordering particulars and has seemed reasonable and business minded. We will see how it goes.

A tip of the hat to those who have pressed this matter. thanks


----------



## DrakeB

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I was satisfied, but he slower than heavy sugar syrup on a cold day.

Plus the place is a little bit of a mess with all the frames of old comb lying around the place


----------



## G3farms

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Do or did they have and connection with Tony's Bees in Parrotsville several years ago? I had bought some queens from Tony's and had good luck with them, but that had to be around '85 or '86. Just wondering.

G3


----------



## NDnewbeek

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I don't know that they have a connection with Tony Homan (if that is who you mean). I do think that they have a connection with Winter's Apiary in TN.


----------



## G3farms

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I do not recall what Tony's last name is, but like I said it was around '85 or '86, he may not even be alive now.

G3


----------



## DrakeB

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



G3farms said:


> I do not recall what Tony's last name is, but like I said it was around '85 or '86, he may not even be alive now.
> 
> G3


If i am thinking of the correct person, yeah, he is dead.. he died a few years ago. If I recall he had massive health problems of some sort. I only met the guy once when I bought my first package of bees many years ago.


----------



## BeeCurious

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Long Creek Apiaries came up on another thread...

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236663

Have any of you resolved the issues you had with the company?

Just curious...


----------



## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

The last communication by e-mail I received on Nov.11,2009 was that he was short on cash and shipping the bees he owes me in the spring is his best option, and that he would be letting me know if I would be getting the refund or the bees in the spring.


----------



## greengecko

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

The risk is that at some point one of the following may likely happen. The supplier will close shop, taking all the remaining back order payments with them. The business will collapse under its own weight as payments for future orders slow and the supplier starts having problems paying out the promised returns. Such liquidity issues often increase as more customers start asking for their money.


----------



## USCBeeMan

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

One vicious cycle we have here. I am sorry for those that have lost money and bees and sorry for the situation of Long Creek Apiary.

But the bottom line is communication. Between customer and company and in their ads and websites.

Based on everything I have read, (lack of) (honest) communication by Long Creek is behind everyone's problem.


----------



## jbeezs

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

i feel sorry for each and every person who has had to deal LCA.i ordered 2 packages in 08 got one in july of that year very late.he gave me the same song and dance he is giving all of you the weather and other reasons.had to call several times to get the one package.till this day i have never received my 2nd package.i called him to send my money back for this package and still same song and dance.i have never received the money.i would never recommend LCA to anyone,because i to fill he stole my money and never tried to make things right.good luck to my fellow beekeepers,i hope you all find a better source to get your bees and do business.


----------



## Hillbillenigma

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I live very near to LPA. Since most of the problems with LPA seemed to be with actual delivery of the Bees I thought I might try them for one hive (since I could drive less than 45 minutes and pick them up). 

I phoned and left my Name/Number with the Wife. A few weeks goes by with no comm so I phone again and leave another message. Never received a return call - I know when to quit so I went with another supplier.


----------



## baldwinbees

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

don't know how it will end ,but I spoke with a lady at LCA today inquiring about my package.They answered the phone,I asked about shipping date&she said that people who didn't get theirs last year 'cause of the weather were first on the list to be sent&then orders would be taken depending on how many were left available.I informed her I was 1 of the people from last year,got apoligies from her& told it should be delivered by mid May


----------



## A2 Bee Man

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I ordered from LONG CREEK APIARIES in January of 2010. My bees were scheduled to arrive the first week of May, but as of the second week of June, they have not been shipped. Since then, I have looked into Long Creek Apiaries, and have found a long history of dissatisfied customers, late or non-existent shipping, and poor communications. After constant delays and complaints to the Better Business Bureau, the "new" shipping date in June 14, which is very late to start a new package of bees in Michigan. If the bees do not arrive that week, I'll let all of you know . . . . and, unfortunately, will also be starting the litigation process. I'm filing a mail fraud complaints with the feds tomorrow.


----------



## bhfury

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Maybe someday we will all learn


----------



## honeybeekeeper

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Someone needs to put a stop to it!!! I know several that it has happened to and if that person knew that he didnt have bees or doesnt have the money to pay back what he owes then he needs to stop trying to sell something that he doesnt have! He must be running a scam outfit cause i know of someone that was suppose to get his bees yesterday and they never arrived!


----------



## greengecko

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Last year after getting the run around and too many excuses I tracked the man down and brought my two packages back. Both Long Creek queens were superseded within a year.


----------



## baldwinbees

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

shipped the package just as he said.communicated with me as to shipping,couple delays,but understandable with the weather we've been having


----------



## baldwinbees

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

oh yeah...mine was an order he couldn't fill from last year


----------



## A2 Bee Man

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Well, after threatening litigation and filing a complaint with the US Postal Service, I finally received my bees today, June 12. I learned a HUGE lesson through all this: ALWAYS look up a potential seller online FIRST, before sending in a check. Doing a bit of homework would have saved all of us a big headache dealing with Long Creek Apiaries.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Sorry to burst your bubble but we ship in order of receipt and it was just a coincidence.


----------



## wolfpenfarm

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



A2 Bee Man said:


> I learned a HUGE lesson through all this: ALWAYS look up a potential seller online FIRST, before sending in a check. Doing a bit of homework would have saved all of us a big headache dealing with Long Creek Apiaries.


You know i can understand your frustrations. But what happens if you find nothing negative or even positive. You can and will miss out on good product and service as well as price. 
I know when I am slow on production, i stay in touch with the folks. I work on the FIFO method. It is slower yeah i know but hey i am only one guy. I also make sure to let folks know its going to be x number of days before i can get to their order. 

I have learned the hard way with a lot of stress and worrying to always figure in tracking and insurance on shipments. Not fun when you cannot locate a package that is late because the shipper has set it aside to deliver on the last possible date.


----------



## BeeHappy7775

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I too am awaiting an explanation for where my packages are. They were ordered in Jan 2010 and scheduled for shipment third week of May. I have left emails and messages with personal contact info. I farm flowers for a living and work long hours as well as take care of my retail and wholesale customers. As a farmer with an unpredictable crop I am very understanding of delays. It is apparent that if you have time to be on the this bee blog, you have time to adress your customers.


----------



## OrionBee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Mr. beemaster01:

in what way has the weather been a factor this year. This region has a minimum of 6 plus inch deficient of rain this year... So, reading between the lines you are saying we had lots of rain which is not the case this year.

If you could, please elaborate on how the weather is affecting your operation this year.


----------



## wolfpenfarm

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> No, you are wrong. When you call a customer to tell them their order has been shipped and they call you a thief, a liar, and many other things that I can't say here,


Thats what trackign numbers are for. Thats proof they shipped. If they decide to call you names then so be it. Thats their perogative. Now you don't have to deal with them any longer after the sale, but the goal here is to keep customers happy so they don't destroy what reputation you have.



> it makes you wonder why you are in this business.


why am i in this business? to make money with something i enjoy. I have had problems with people but have yet to have any of them come on here and trash me. Why? I communicate constantly. When i am not working on stuff, I am emailing with updates. That keeps them informed and keeps them from wondering if they got screwed.




> When I must deal with the worst bee weather since you started 35 years ago and customers do not understand the role that weather plays in mating queens and producing packages the urge is to let someone else deal with them.


You know i understand. Might help if you explain it. Its a risk for the customer to send in money in the hopes of bees being ready. I'd have to say if I had ordered bees in january and didn't get them until may or june, i would be asking for my money back too. Reason is by time june rolls around, your hives are basically screwed in winter because they will barely have time enough to draw comb, build up and store honey for next winter. 



> You do not answer the phone and list to the most unreasonable people on the planet ever day so you have no idea.


Then why are you in it? If its that awful, then seems to me its time for a change.



> Maybe the new policy should be when you call to complain about an order, that order is canceled at that point and ship those bees to someone who understands.


That would be a solution, but then you would end up over time pissing off the ones who understand when they have a legitimate complaint and you would be out of business.



> You sir are in no position to lecture me about customer relations.


You know something, The customer is always right. Doesn't matter if he's wrong, he's always right. As far as my being position to lecture, you do not know my position or anything about me, and that kind of attitude is what the customers have a problem with. Arrogance does not work in beekeeping or in any other venture. I have run multiple businesses, dealt with million dollar budgets and dealt with vendors, customers, and business owners. The first thing that happened when i got an attitude from a vendor, in any form, is to eliminate them from my vending list, and then call every friend i had in the business, and had them cut the vendor off. It doesn't take long to blackball a business into bankruptcy. 

Secondly running my own business's, Yes plural not singular, i have run into every possible customer on the planet and then some. Yet every single one of them, i went the extra 10 miles to make them happy even to the point of giving their orders to them free. Once you do that, they have no complaint. Now did i take their future orders? sometimes. I can tell you one thing, it is far better to give a product away, than to recieve the negative comments from said customer. The damage is far worse by not making that customer happy. This is true in bee keeping as well as IT industry, farming, and every other business on the planet.

You can't come away from a dispute especially on a board, or internet, smelling like a rose. The buisness will always be the loser.


----------



## wolfpenfarm

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



OrionBee said:


> Mr. beemaster01:
> 
> in what way has the weather been a factor this year. This region has a minimum of 6 plus inch deficient of rain this year... So, reading between the lines you are saying we had lots of rain which is not the case this year.
> 
> If you could, please elaborate on how the weather is affecting your operation this year.


Well hasn't he had some serious rain there this year. they got nailed last month with 13" of rainfall around nashville. Being near NC border they have also had a higher rainfall average for the last 2 or 3 years than normal so yeah it can affect his operation.


----------



## G3farms

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Nashville is three plus hours west of him, the mountains play with the weather around here something terrible. 

G3


----------



## wolfpenfarm

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



G3farms said:


> Nashville is three plus hours west of him, the mountains play with the weather around here something terrible.
> 
> G3


well yeah i know, I used to live in blairsville/murphy nc area. Weird weather all the time.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



> You know i understand. Might help if you explain it. Its a risk for the customer to send in money in the hopes of bees being ready. I'd have to say if I had ordered bees in january and didn't get them until may or june, i would be asking for my money back too. Reason is by time june rolls around, your hives are basically screwed in winter because they will barely have time enough to draw comb, build up and store honey for next winter.


In my part of the country, you can not mate queens properly in time to ship in April. We do not start shipping until May 1st, if it is a normal year. It is all posted on my website.


> You know something, The customer is always right. Doesn't matter if he's wrong, he's always right. As far as my being position to lecture, you do not know my position or anything about me, and that kind of attitude is what the customers have a problem with. Arrogance does not work in beekeeping or in any other venture. I have run multiple businesses, dealt with million dollar budgets and dealt with vendors, customers, and business owners. The first thing that happened when i got an attitude from a vendor, in any form, is to eliminate them from my vending list, and then call every friend i had in the business, and had them cut the vendor off. It doesn't take long to blackball a business into bankruptcy.
> 
> Secondly running my own business's, Yes plural not singular, i have run into every possible customer on the planet and then some. Yet every single one of them, i went the extra 10 miles to make them happy even to the point of giving their orders to them free. Once you do that, they have no complaint. Now did i take their future orders? sometimes. I can tell you one thing, it is far better to give a product away, than to recieve the negative comments from said customer. The damage is far worse by not making that customer happy. This is true in bee keeping as well as IT industry, farming, and every other business on the planet.


All that is well and good, but all these things are types of business have inventory on the shelf or services that can provided when needed. It does not qualify you to coment on the queen breeder and package producer business where so many things are beyond your control.

As far as weather, this year the major problem was not in Aptril and May, it was the two months before that. The Russian stock WILL NOT build up unless NATURAL pollen is available, It was so cold in February and March that nothing was blooming. The colonies just sit there maintaining their strength until the pollen came in. That put the colony strength at least 30 days late. However, for those of you that are in the north, a cold region is ideal place to obtain bees. It is a trade off from getting bees early and not be winter hardy, or later and get bees that will survive the winter.


> You can't come away from a dispute especially on a board, or internet, smelling like a rose. The buisness will always be the loser.


And those that believe every thing they read on these boards as gospel. Just like the character that took claim for expediting his order. It doesn't happen that way. I will not move orders just because someone complains. Won't happen.


----------



## A2 Bee Man

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

The fact is, Long Creek Apiaries failed to keep the customer informed. Phone calls, emails made to your business go unanswered. Think about it . . . . I ordered 10 packages from various apiaries in Tennessee and Georgia, and received 8 within two weeks of their promised delivery date. The ones that were late communicated with me and informed me about shipping issues, so I had absolutely no problem with them. However, Long Creek Apiary was the only business which was completely uncommunicative. If wanting communication and information on two packages that were 6 weeks late makes me "one of the most unreasonable people on the planet," then you really shouldn't be in business. But don't take my word for it . . . Google Long Creek Apiaries and see for yourself the ever-growing list of very dissatisfied ex-customers you, yourself, have created. Next Spring, I'll be ordering 10-15 more packages . . . but not from Long Creek Apiaries.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Again, what other apiaries in Tennessee? We are the only registered inspected package bee producer in Tennessee. You take a big risk of disease by buying bees from unregistered producers. Since there are no other apiaries that shake packages out of their own apiaries in Tennessee, then you must have bought those bees from a reseller, bees probably out of Georgia. I don't expect you to post the info here, a PM will do the job. Even Georgia breeders were 3-4 weeks behind with their orders this year.

PS We reserve the right to refuse any and all orders!


----------



## devdog108

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Actually, I got my Nucs 2 weeks early this year from S. Ga, BUT, most here were, as you said, behind. FBM...AKA Don...was behind this year as well. Most of your problem IMHO Beemaster01 is CS, customer Service.....


----------



## Dean

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

This is the second year in a row that I have ordered from Long Creek. I have to say that I am totally satisfied. I received my package last week, the previous year was about the same time. My package from last year had no problems making it through the record breaking winter we had. The package built up quickly in the spring and was ready to split the end of April. As I said last year in response to this thread I will continue to give Long Creek my business.

"You catch more flies with honey then with vinegar"


----------



## honeybeekeeper

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I agree with A2 Bee Man, Long Creek done screwed up and needs to face up and admit it. I know several ppl "personally" who was in the same situation, they ordered some packages and they never arrived, they tried to call no answer, they tried to email no reply back. One of the customers i know will be waiting for his delivery to arrive in the mail June 29th even though it was suppose to of been June 8th! I told him not to hold his breath!! HAHAHA But im glad some ppl are satisfied cause the ones i have heard speak up this yr arent to satisfied at all! And if the bees was gonna be late the customers should of "atleast" been notified but they wasnt!!


----------



## handyman dave

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Last year I ordered and paid for a package from David Winters / Long Creek Apiaries. ($80 plus shipping.) When he failed to supply one, after many delays, problems, emails, etc., I agreed to take one this year which he promised would be shipped before any of his 2010 orders. 

This year he has promised, explained, and delayed and still I have nothing from him. I wait days for any response to emails and he has never returned a phone call. I am frustrated!

To top it off, now he says he has no record of my order! 

I appreciate that this is livestock and things happen, but after more than a year, lousy communication, and now "no record" I need to go public so others may be adequately warned.

(This is the second individual in the beekeeping business who has utterly failed thus far to fulfill what was promised during the two years I have been keeping bees. The beekeepers I know personally are honest, upstanding and trustworthy. The ones I have dealt with from a distance have been much less so. Is this a pattern? I certainly hope not.) 

Regardless, I wish I had seen this thread before I sent him my hard-earned money. (A fool and his money are soon parted!)


----------



## dcross

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



handyman dave said:


> To top it off, now he says he has no record of my order!


Sounds really familiar!


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



handyman dave said:


> To top it off, now he says he has no record of my order!


As Paul Harvey would say "here is the rest of the story". What I said was I did not see his order on my computer. As I also explained, I am in the process of migrating everything from windows to linux and it is possible that his order got misplaced in the shuffle of moving everything. I never said I couldn't find his order or his order didn't exist.

It seems that certain individuals love to capture a "sound bite" to distort the truth. Sounds a lot like our politicians in Washington (sorry that is quite a low blow)! I think that this thread will continue long after Long Creek no longer exists. 

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: The board of directors of Long Creek Apiaries, Inc. informally voted to liquidate assets to refund money for unfilled orders and to exchange single hives for packages whenever it is possible. A motion to liquidate all assets and dissolve the company was tabled until after the single hives are sold and debts are paid or no later than October 30, 2010. I think for tax purposes, any dissolution was occur on December 31, 2010. The board feels that even if the company emerges from these difficulties financially intact, the image has been so damaged in the internet community it can not continue operations. Again, that decision will be made at the next board meeting. Any formal filing for bankruptcy will be based on the financial situation of the company at the next board meeting.

Personally, I will find retirement a strange new experience that I look forward to after 45 years of hard, unappreciated work. RIP Long Creek.


----------



## greengecko

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



greengecko said:


> The risk is that at some point one of the following may likely happen. The supplier will close shop, taking all the remaining back order payments with them. The business will collapse under its own weight as payments for future orders slow and the supplier starts having problems paying out the promised returns. Such liquidity issues often increase as more customers start asking for their money.





beemaster01 said:


> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: The board of directors of Long Creek Apiaries, Inc. informally voted to liquidate assets to refund money for unfilled orders and to exchange single hives for packages whenever it is possible. A motion to liquidate all assets and dissolve the company was tabled until after the single hives are sold and debts are paid or no later than October 30, 2010. I think for tax purposes, any dissolution was occur on December 31, 2010. The board feels that even if the company emerges from these difficulties financially intact, the image has been so damaged in the internet community it can not continue operations. Again, that decision will be made at the next board meeting. Any formal filing for bankruptcy will be based on the financial situation of the company at the next board meeting.
> 
> Personally, I will find retirement a strange new experience that I look forward to after 45 years of hard, unappreciated work. RIP Long Creek.


----------



## devdog108

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

It will, and you can continually make excuses for yourself and say he said she said instead of just admitting that YOU and LC AP is shabby on Customer Service and made a huge mistake and overpromised in the market....OR...you can continue to try and defend something that the BBB and the rest of us already know. Personally it is sad that you go out like this and the unappreciated retirement you refer to above, well, you said it, so part of ya has to believe it. If it were me, Id sell everyting i have and give it to the hundreds of people who have complained for the last couple of years...but hey....i didn't buy from ya!

Dev


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

It sounds much like Greengecko might think he "told you so" but it is interesting that he didn't quote the total content. Again, another "sound bite". The reason for closing is not to take people's money but to repay everyone leaving Long Creek without means to operate. The hostile environment is only a part of the picture. If you notice, when I pressured A2Man for the names of the other apiaries in Tennessee that he stated he got bees on time, NO RESPONSE. One of those things that you make you go "Hmm". Misleading at the very least.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Oh, I forgot. Don't break your arms patting yourself on the back!


----------



## KeyBeeper

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Some folks are good beekeepers, some folks are good businessmen. You need to be both. I hope you are a good beekeeper is all I have to say.

Your first mistake was keeping money for extended periods of time without delivering product. Even if you know in your heart that you plan to deliver the goods or refund the money at some ambiguous future date - your customer can't be reasonably expected to wait. Give them back their money, they need the bees or they need their money back to buy elsewhere. 

And the haughty attitude of your posts (like this one) on here did you no favors. If I sent you several hundred dollars and got neither bee's nor product for months on end, I'd expect you on here on bended knee apologizing and promising the product or refund immediately. And if you didn't have the ability to do either - then see the first two sentences of this post. You don't belong in business and I guess you finally saw the light.



beemaster01 said:


> Oh, I forgot. Don't break your arms patting yourself on the back!


----------



## BeeCurious

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Beemaster01,

Why don't you do yourself a big favor and simply stop responding to the postings here. Deal with the people who trusted their money with you via email or snail-mail.

If you continue to do business, I think you might want to sell to people who are willing to drive to your location to pickup their bees. I suspect that the beekeepers within driving distance of you have had fewer complaints...


----------



## wolfpenfarm

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

You know, its sad to see ya hold the attitude that you do. you stated 45 years... Well it seems that you have allowed the difficult customers to bring your view about people down, which in turn affects your attitude towards other customers. This carries over into your work, and when things don't go the way you expect such as bees being ready, instead of letting customers know whats happening, (pretty simple do a mass email to all customers) you just let them hang and let them get angry and start calling you which affects the attitude even more. 

Come on, this isn't rocket science. But you are right, if your fed up with beekeeping and the business, its best that ya retire. 

I can guaranteed ya, that if you tried, you could change the negative into positive and all it would take is some prompt response to customers.

I've seen a lot of angry customers on here, and everytime i see a post, you come up with a "myside". Why not appologize and offer them a reasonable solution. It doesn't matter if your right. What matters is the fallout from negative comments. 

There are some customers that yeah you don't want to deal with them. I have my solution, make them happy, then never do business with them again. In the end you come out ahead by completing the contract with them and putting them on a list of no dealing for the future.


----------



## devdog108

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

AGAIN beemaster....customer service....one day you will realize the downfall of Longcreek was noone but your own fault. The name it got was noone but your fault....the board....thats laughable as well.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Don't look at the number of posts, look at the number of people posting. There is a link here where you can see how many times a person posts here and the total number of people posting. Beesource is the "spin zone" and that is a fact. Any reasonable person who reads the posts can see that whatever I post, it is spun in a negative way. Sorry, I call as I see it.


----------



## A2 Bee Man

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

This guy is amazing . . . . . and it's almost worth the abysmal experience doing business with him just for the entertainment value of reading his silly posts. BTW . . . if you want to order excellent Russians from an excellent and RELIABLE beekeeping business, try Simpson's Bee Supply. All of my Russian packages were delivered on time and are building up beautifully. Plus . . . their customer service is impeccable.


----------



## KeyBeeper

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

If you were holding MY money and not sending bees then I really wouldn't care how many people got their money back or got their bees. This logic doesn't fly. If the original poster is correct - then it was logical for him to assume you had stolen his money. I'd go after you too - in every way I could. 

I heard a story about a man and his son walking on a beach. His son was picking up living sand-dollars and throwing them as hard as he could into the ocean - no doubt killing the creature. His father stopped him - the son said but Dad, there a millions of them, who cares if I kill them. His dad said, the sand-dollar you are killing cares. 

Take care of your customers and you won't have to combat them. I've yet hear a good reason as to why you think it's OK to keep money, provide no product and have little to no communication. Like the original poster, I would assume that my money was stolen. Why can't you see that.



beemaster01 said:


> Don't look at the number of posts, look at the number of people posting. There is a link here where you can see how many times a person posts here and the total number of people posting. Beesource is the "spin zone" and that is a fact. Any reasonable person who reads the posts can see that whatever I post, it is spun in a negative way. Sorry, I call as I see it.


----------



## handyman dave

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

*"Originally Posted by handyman dave: To top it off, now he says he has no record of my order!" *



beemaster01 said:


> As Paul Harvey would say "here is the rest of the story". What I said was I did not see his order on my computer. As I also explained, I am in the process of migrating everything from windows to linux and it is possible that his order got misplaced in the shuffle of moving everything. I never said I couldn't find his order or his order didn't exist.


Here is his *entire, uncut and unedited, actual message *received on 6/22. Judge for yourself about the "rest of the story". 

*I can't find an order for you. Are you wanting to place an order? We aren't taking any more orders for packages this year. Sorry.*

Obvious, blatant prevarication IMO.

I will gladly report when I receive my refund, now 15 months missing, but I am not holding my breath.


----------



## G3farms

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Beemaster............with 45 years of experience under your belt it is sad to see you retire, I have never been to you apiary, but you must have a fairly large set up. Sounds to me like you yourself need to concentrate on working the bees and let someone else run the front office for you. 

Sounds kind of sad for all involved on both sides of the fence.

G3


----------



## handyman dave

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Just this morning I received a message on my voicemail from David Winters / LCA. He cheerfully advised me that my package has shipped and should arrive Monday. 
If this proves to be true I will be relieved. 
I will keep you posted.


----------



## OrionBee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

If you are in the East TN area, I suggest getting bees from K&K bee supply in Jonesborough. The have provided me with customer service, support and great products.

Mr. Winter -- The only reason you have very few problems locally is because people can actually do something about it. I called in June 2008 to pick up my package of bees from you. You stalled up until July, and by that time it was too late. You have used every excuse under the sun with these people and many more that have not complained here. and do not even think about sending a PM to see what my real name is -- it just might surprise you to who I am. 

On a side note, I did contact the TN state Apiarist Mike Studer by phone. You blatantly lied again. You are not the only registered package producer in the state. There is one near Knoxville AND Centerville that i can at the moment remeber..

And according to the TN Apiary Law of 1995 which was posted on your website as well as elsewhere, I shall point all people interested to Section 9 a of stated law



> SECTION 9. (A) No bees may be sold, offered for sale, moved, or transported, shipped or delivered within the state, unless they have been inspected by an appropriate official of the state and certified to be apparently free of infectious or contagious regulated bee diseases and pests in accordance with rules and regulations promulgated under this chapter.



I will post a link to the version that the state has as soon as I can find it. I wouldn't be surprised if that particular page just suddenly disappeared.

Another lie that can be busted is that LCA is a two person operation, the owner and the son. It is not a corporate operation at all, just incorporated so that if the corporation gets sued, then he won't loose any money as the goal is to keep the corporation broke. 

It would be fun to print this out and or email this whole page to members of local associations...... but I will refrain from that kind of act.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



OrionBee said:


> If you are in the East TN area, I suggest getting bees from K&K bee supply in Jonesborough. The have provided me with customer service, support and great products.


I agree. Ken is a good person. Mickey Hardeman is a good breeder. Ken has a standing order for packages from Hardeman Apiaries and can get them early. 


> On a side note, I did contact the TN state Apiarist Mike Studer by phone. You blatantly lied again. You are not the only registered package producer in the state. There is one near Knoxville AND Centerville that i can at the moment remeber..


Technically that is true. Any beekeeper in Tennessee that has been inspected by Mike can sell package bees, nucs, etc. So there potentially could be many registered, qualified or however you want to state it. Here is outside link to the Tennessee Apiary Law of 1995: http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpExt.dll/tncode/15b77/15f8a?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

Everyone here is great!!! I don't think I will quit after all. There is just too much work to be done breeding the ultimate bee. I just can't let a few people cheat many beekeepers out of good bees After all, where else can everyone have so much FUN.

The rest of the post, I will not qualify it with a response


----------



## greengecko

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



G3farms said:


> ... I have never been to you apiary, but you must have a fairly large set up.


Google Maps N 35 59.316, w 83 0.535


----------



## yoop

*Another unsatisfied customer*

I have been following this thread for months and would like to add that I am another unsatisfied customer. I would have written earlier but the owner or representative for Long Creek was *threatening to cancel already placed orders*. 

Isn't that terrible, a business to whom you've sent hundreds of dollars and waited on for more than a year threatening to arbitrarily cancel the orders of customers who have complained? That, if no other reason, was enough to *halt all my dealings with this apiary*. 

Since the season is too late for me, I've cancelled my order with him. So now I can complain...

I ordered last year and week after week received no updates on promised (and failed to deliver) ship dates. Take a vacation? Schedule all day activities? No, had be to ready to get the bees. I kept expecting packages, none would arrive, then (if I could even get ahold of them) excuses and new ship dates.

My suggestion to Long Creek and others:

*When a customer places an order, give them a numerical order number. During shipping season, update the list of order numbers that have been shipped out DAILY on the website. This way a customer has a feel for how far off his or her order is (eg orders 25-57 shipped this week, and I'm order 63) AND knows that the supplier isn't shipping to preferred customers first.

*DO NOT promise ship dates or make excuses. Make it clear that these are ONLY GUESSES. I would have rather been told upfront once it became clear that my order was unlikely to ship last year (or this year for this matter). Because I kept waiting patiently, I wasn't able to secure another source in time and a season was wasted. Communicate, communicate, repeat, repeat.

*Place order money in escrow and refund immediately when it is clear the order won't ship. Although I'm sure last year's money was spent immediately, I keep wondering what kind of interest you can get on who-knows how many thousands of dollars for 6+ months.

**DO NOT EVER THREATEN CUSTOMERS!* It still boggles my mind that he did this.

To customers, a tip: Insist your bee supplier accept credit cards. They don't like to do it for many reasons, but one is that credit card companies can FORCE a return on your money.


----------



## handyman dave

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

The bees did arrive today and at first glance,they seem healthy. The quantity looked good as I shook them out and the queen looks fat and she and her helpers look active. FINALLY! :thumbsup:

Don't get me wrong, I *am* grateful that I finally got the bees I ordered over a year ago. :applause: (I had honestly given up all hopes of getting either the bees or the money.)

However, no matter how wonderful the bees prove to be, that does NOT excuse the lack of communication, the endless stonewalling, the limitless excuses. :no:

He may have a long years of experience with bees but none of that tender care has been conveyed to his human customers. So, until Long Creek learns the value of excellent communication and prompt refunds, * I would NOT send them money, any money, under any circumstances.*


----------



## wolfpenfarm

*Re: Another unsatisfied customer*



yoop said:


> To customers, a tip: Insist your bee supplier accept credit cards. They don't like to do it for many reasons, but one is that credit card companies can FORCE a return on your money.


Well there is a problem with that yoop, i won't take CC's for several reasons of which one is that too much fraud goes on and the vendor gets screwed. People order stuff with a cc, then file claim that they never receive it and then CC company reverses charge. Can't protect yourself from them.

I take cash but i only charge a deposit, then once item is ready to ship, do i require the balance. thats fair. I used to not charge a deposit but i had so many people on here that ordered stuff, then once i got it done, they said oh i already bought from so and so they were cheaper. thats just as bad as a vendor not treating customers right.

I do take a paypal thats as close to CC as i get.


----------



## A2 Bee Man

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

There's just one question that no one, not even Mr. Winters of LCA, has been able to answer: How is it that there are still people who have not received their orders, or are just now receiving their orders (many of whom placed their orders last year) . . . when the order I placed in January 2010 was shipped (albeit 7 weeks late) in June? Why did I receive my order before all these others who ordered before me? The only two possible reasons are, (1.) LCA is completely disorganized in their record-keeping, and/or (2.) I immediately took action with both a written complaint to the Eastern Tennessee BBB and a postal fraud complaint with the US Postal Service.


----------



## bobber128

*Wow, just wow....*

I gotta say, I'm absolutely shocked at what I've read here. 15 months waiting for a refund?!?!?! No response to email/ voicemail?!?!? Threats to customers?!?!?! I am practically speechless..... Luckily, I can sit and sort through the shock of the last 14 pages before I type. 

Mr Winters, I can say, without a doubt, I will not be doing any business with LCA. Not because of the delays in shipment, or because of the lack of communication, or even because of the complaints raised here. The singular reason for me saying this is your attitude when complaints are brought up. It seems to me that everyone that has posted here has had a very legitimate complaint. You then turn it around and attack them for voicing those complaints, in an effort to help other people avoid being put in the same situation. 

Also, you made the following statement: "I will not move orders just because someone complains." However, it seems, based on this thread, that you do just that. A short 6 hours after handyman dave printed the text from your message sent 6/22, he posted you contacted him and his bees were shipped. And A2 Beeman responded on 06-12-2010 that he had received his bees only after threatening litigation on 06-08-2010. It seems that you absolutely WILL move orders just because someone complains, but only if they complain to the right people (or threaten to complain to the right people). 

I don't know you as a person, and I hope you don't take this as a personal attack, because that is absolutely not the case. However, the attitude I've seen here is enough for you to lose me as a potential customer. Good luck in all you do in the future, and I fervently hope you succeed in whatever path you choose, be it continuing LCA, retirement, or simply focusing on "breeding the ultimate bee."


----------



## Three of Us

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I ordered in October 2009 and received nothing. I just filed a complaint with the Post Office for mail fraud.

I would have been happy if he just returned a phone call, sent an email, or a letter explaining that he has problems and what he was going to do to correct the issue.


----------



## beez2010

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Don't look now, but it looks like Mr. Winters has the apiary for sale....the hives that is! According to a scrolling message on his home page, 150+ hives full of bees and honey are for sale for $175.00 each! This jerk (who won't communicate with me either) owes me $300.00! 

Gee, I wonder if he intends to refund everyone's money with what he gets from selling their bees....:ws


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beez2010 said:


> Gee, I wonder if he intends to refund everyone's money with what he gets from selling their bees....:ws


That is the plan.


----------



## BeeCurious

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



BeeCurious said:


> Beemaster01,
> 
> Why don't you do yourself a big favor and simply stop responding to
> the postings here. Deal with the people who trusted their money with
> you via email or snail-mail.
> 
> If you continue to do business, I think you might want to sell to
> people who are willing to drive to your location to pickup their bees.
> I suspect that the beekeepers within driving distance of you have had
> fewer complaints...


Beemaster01,

Some members have tried to give you some advice without attacking you. Since you insist on continuing this thread I have a few questions for 
you.

1. * What was the issue that caused you to be removed from Charlie Harper's "Russian Honeybee Breeders Association"?*

(The more technical the issue, the more I'm interested in the answer.)


2. Another "Consumer Report" thread has been viewed 18,565 
times... Do you think that the "Dealings with Long Creek Apiary" 
thread can top that?

*Not long ago you wrote:*


> Everyone here is great!!! I don't think I will quit after all. There
> is just too much work to be done breeding the ultimate bee.


3. *Is "breeding the ultimate bee" easier than returning five or six checks by the mail?*

Beemaster01,

Having seen how this issue played out (with five customers), is there 
anything you wish you had handled differently?


----------



## greengecko

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



BeeCurious said:


> 1. * What was the issue that caused you to be removed from Charlie
> Harper's "Russian Honeybee Breeders Association"?*
> 
> (The more technical the issue, the more I'm interested in the answer.)


Having met the man, seen his operation, owned bees from his stock and being Far Eastern Stock "Russian Bee" aficionados we wouldn’t miss this for the world. opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


----------



## OrionBee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



greengecko said:


> Last year after getting the run around and too many excuses I tracked the man down and brought my two packages back. Both Long Creek queens were superseded within a year.



I did have the same problem as well. One question that i do ask you is, did they get a little aggressive at any point for no apparent reason? I thought for a while that they were all bipolar.and by the way, what was the mite count like? for being so called "hygienic" and "mite resistant" I certainly had more mites than I could handle and ended up in the end getting a new queen after seeing the constant supersedure cells (so nobody can contest my knowledge, the top part of the frame) . Since then, my drop of mites since then has been only two or three a month. Still many more where those came from.

I would also love to know what his winter survival rate for his packages and or queens are if any body could supply that kind of info.


----------



## greengecko

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



OrionBee said:


> One question that i do ask you is, did they get a little aggressive at any point for no apparent reason?


No, they remained gentle.


----------



## greengecko

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

LONG CREEK APIARIES WEBSITE PAYMENT TERMS:

"We do not accept credit cards. Although laws were passed to protect credit card users, credit card companies have found other ways to unfairly take more of the consumer's money. We feel that the only way that you can combat that kind of thing is to fight back with your wallet. In the spirit of that fight, we no longer accept credit cards so our customers can not be cheated."

:scratch:


----------



## Mike S

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I also have ordered bees from LCA and have not received them yet. I was told when I ordered they would ship on 6-7-10 and they never arrived that week. I called, wrote e-mails, and finally was able to contact them in about a week. They told me they had not received payment for the bees and thats why they didn't ship them. I assured him my check and processed through the bank back in April and I would be glad to fax him a copy or scan and e-mail it. After some digging through his papers he found where I had paid and promised to ship on 6-28-10 and still no bees have arrived, said his computer had not been updated properly. My wife was able to contact him again night before last and he had another week delay due to the high heat and is suppose to ship now week of 7-5-10 and we will see. Wish I had found this thread prior to April before I sent my check. Its not a huge lot of money to lose buts its just the idea of being ripped off like so many more people have been on this thread, not counting the who knows how many thats not on this thread.:no: Also its the aggravation of setting up the hives and planning on being off work to get the bees installed when they arrive. I would be ashamed to face the public if I had treated so many people this way as Long Creek Apiaries has. This would have to be a huge let down or discouragement if you were just starting out in the bee keeping hobby and these were your very first packages. I hate to see this happening in the bee world, well anywhere in the good old USA as far as that goes.

Well Beemaster01 I'm still here waiting with fingers crossed hoping to see some bees before its too late to get them established before winter if its not already. I have been nice and polite, tried to hold off typing on this thread but I'm only human, I cant imagine how mad some of these people are that have waited over a year or since last year. If your not going to send them I wish you would just go ahead and tell me so I can pull the hives back in to storage before they just sit out empty and go to waste and rot, I work too hard on them just to see them go to waste. I hope I see some packages before you get your hives all sold, are you planning on packing up and moving out too? It is going to be very difficult to ever recommend your business to anyone no matter what kind of quality bees your have, I don't care if their super bees ( your ultimate bee). Your not that far away and I'm down there several times a year anyway, I cant wait to see your operation and I will be by for a visit.

Mike Smith 
Louisa Ky.


----------



## honeybeekeeper

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

You wont be the only one mikeS trust me!!! Wayyy too many people!! In this situation they say what comes around goes around!! Wow and you was nice enough to give the guy time and all he was doing was giving you excuses like he done everyone else!...Thats sad right there!!! It will be alright Tenn isnt that far from ky!!


----------



## beez2010

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

We have waited.....and waited...............and waited......and are still waiting.:waiting: I am seriously considering driving down there myself, and some very kind gentlemen from this forum have offered to go along. I just might take them up on it.


----------



## Bens-Bees

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Wow, I'm blown away by this thread. Such a sad situation all the way around. 

Beemaster01, I don't have a dog in this fight. I've never ordered anything from you nor had any prior dealings with you. But maybe I can offer you some helpful advise. It sounds to me like you got in over your head with debt and now you're trying to sell all your hives in a desperate attempt to cover your personal debt as well as to issue refunds to your business clients. But what if, instead of doing that, you tallied up the number of packages you owe to customers then used the adult bees from the hives on a 1 hive to 1 package ratio, using the hives' own queen for the package queen, then added the hive box with the brood to the hives you don't have to use to fill these orders with and sell the remaining hive equipment (top covers, bottom boards, etc.). That would allow you to fulfill all your current orders (provided you have less than 150 orders to fill), and the remaining hives would have lots of extra brood so that they will have a population explosion just in time for the fall flow. That would allow you to get a good fall honey harvest which you could use to pay down your personal debt and then if you still have any debt left you could then sell as many of the remaining hives as you need to in order to pay it off. Unless it is your intent to purposely rip off these people (which would be fraud; and to be clear, I do not believe that is your intent), it seems like this would be the fastest way possible to square things up with the most people since you wouldn't have to wait for the hives to sell before squaring things up with the people who already paid for their orders. Anyway, that's my advise, what I would do if I were in your shoes, but I'm not in your shoes so maybe I don't know all the details. 

The only other thing I can do here is pray for you, all of you that are involved here, and I will.


----------



## Three of Us

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I finally got my bees (2 packages) and installed them on Thursday 7/1/10.

Just checked them, both queens were released, 4 of 10 frames were fully drawn in each hive and the bees were so gentle that I don't think I needed a smoker or veil.

At this point, if I would have received an email, call, or whatever to tell me the bees were going to be late, I would be a very satisfied customer. Of course, its too early to see how they perform, but I'm relatively happy now.


----------



## Mike S

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I have filed my official complaint with the US Postal Service for non delivery of goods. I have had three promised delivery dates for two packages of bees and still have not received any bees or an e-mail or phone call. I will cancel my complaint at the post office since it is for non delivery of goods if I receive my bees or a refund of my money.


----------



## beecrazy101

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I also ordered from Long Creek. My ship date was suppose to be around the Third week of May. I didn't recieve my bees till July 1. I had called and was nice about everything with him. Hard to contact though. I installed my bees, only one package, which were very gentle in my opinion, because this is my first hive. It was kind of frustrating me, but I know the bees are be very productive, but I would have to think twice about dealing with a delivery with them again. I would have to pick up ONLY to insure that I received them when I wanted them. I am out there every day now watching, and they just work and work and work. I was getting worried about not receiving on time and when expected. I am going with Don from Dixie Apairies in Georgia for my next package. I am also going to try others on the RBA lists. Sorry to hear about all the problems. I am just glad to receive mine. FINALLY


----------



## greengecko

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beecrazy101 said:


> I would have to pick up ONLY to insure that I received them when I wanted them.


That doesn't work either. :waiting:


----------



## wdcrkapry205

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I hate to say this but you folks must be gluttons for punishment to keep dealing with this outfit. Wise people try to not only learn from their own mistakes but also the mistakes of others, but if you want to be receiving your package bees in July, order again next year. But please stop complaining about it. :no:


----------



## Altoona

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I too am still waiting. David Winters and Long Creek Apiaries has $560 of my money, ordered first of May, 2009. 

Today I received word from the TN Better Business Bureau that said, "The BBB has made several attempts to contact the business regarding the above referenced complaint. We regret to inform you that we have not received a response from the company."

I post this only to authentic reports of others and to indicate that it is happening to a lot more people than have written here in the last two years.

It is incredible that David Winters/Long Creek Apiaries can take your money, give you nothing, and stay on the internet doing it to others.


----------



## honeydreams

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

What a awful shame. Just on Principal alone I would Hire a lawyer and Sue his pants off him. I would spend 1,000 dollars for the 500 lost Just to put him out of buissnes.


----------



## Mike S

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Well Im not out 560 but I wish I had seen this thread before I sent him my 197.00 last April. I wish you good luck on any recovery, its too late here for the bees though and I doubt if I see a refund.


----------



## bobber128

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



wdcrkapry205 said:


> I hate to say this but you folks must be gluttons for punishment to keep dealing with this outfit. Wise people try to not only learn from their own mistakes but also the mistakes of others, but if you want to be receiving your package bees in July, order again next year. But please stop complaining about it. :no:


 wdcrkapry, I don't think it's a matter of people having bad experiences and not learning from them. More precisely, it seems that people who have been screwed over in the same time frame are seeing the thread and chiming in. I think anyone who has read this thread will avoid LCA like the plague.


----------



## G3farms

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



honeydreams said:


> Just on Principal alone I would Hire a lawyer and Sue his pants off him. I would spend 1,000 dollars for the 500 lost Just to put him out of buissnes.


If I am not mistaken, here in the state of Tennessee three of his creditors can file bankruptcy for him.


----------



## honeydreams

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I would sue for damages beyond the money lost and in washington state the courts can go after 40 percent of earnings for 35 years. This guy needs to be put away from reading the posts he could be charged with a class c felony and wire fraud. if buissnes was done via the internet. or mail fraud if buisnnes was done via US mail. both have a ten thousand dollar fine per acurance and 10 years in prision.


----------



## wdcrkapry205

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



bobber128 said:


> wdcrkapry, I don't think it's a matter of people having bad experiences and not learning from them. More precisely, it seems that people who have been screwed over in the same time frame are seeing the thread and chiming in. I think anyone who has read this thread will avoid LCA like the plague.


I'm sure you are partly correct. However, I think some folks are so desperate to buy Russian bees that they are willing to "roll the dice". These are the people I was thinking about when I made that statement. I wouldn't expect too much out of the BBB. Some of these outfits/companies are paid up members of the BBB. Get it?


----------



## wdcrkapry205

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Altoona, why don't you try to contact the local D.A.? I guess it would be too much to ask for someone from the BBB to actually get in a vehicle and go out there.... unbelievable.


----------



## G3farms

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I need to add to my reply above that LC does not owe me anything and I have never had any dealings with them, never met the fella or talked to him (other than on this forum).


----------



## Lauren

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



wdcrkapry205 said:


> I hate to say this but you folks must be gluttons for punishment to keep dealing with this outfit. Wise people try to not only learn from their own mistakes but also the mistakes of others, but if you want to be receiving your package bees in July, order again next year. But please stop complaining about it. :no:


I have been putting off chiming in, but i will say that I , for one, DID learn from the misfortune of others on this website. After mailing my check I could not reach him about my pick-up date (I was going to drive and get them). Since he had picked up right away when I PLACED my order I thought that maybe I had the wrong number and googled Long Creek. That is when I found this thread. 

I cancelled my check and tried to reach him to tell him I would be bringing cash to pick up the bees. No answer. So, I tried an old trick and called on my son's cell phone. He answered right away. :scratch: He said cash was fine and he would call me to arrange pickup. Needless to say I haven't gotten my call... BUT thanks to you folks, I am not out any money either (except the $10.00 stop payment fee.)!

And if it hadn't been for Long Creek, I may not have found this forum!


----------



## wolfpenfarm

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



Lauren said:


> I have been putting off chiming in, but i will say that I , for one, DID learn from the misfortune of others on this website. After mailing my check I could not reach him about my pick-up date (I was going to drive and get them). Since he had picked up right away when I PLACED my order I thought that maybe I had the wrong number and googled Long Creek. That is when I found this thread.
> 
> I cancelled my check and tried to reach him to tell him I would be bringing cash to pick up the bees. No answer. So, I tried an old trick and called on my son's cell phone. He answered right away. :scratch: He said cash was fine and he would call me to arrange pickup. Needless to say I haven't gotten my call... BUT thanks to you folks, I am not out any money either (except the $10.00 stop payment fee.)!
> 
> And if it hadn't been for Long Creek, I may not have found this forum!


You know smart move! It also says a whole lot about him, he's talking bankrupcy, and unable to fill orders and selling off hives, ect ect yet he was still willing to take your order and cash your check. That to me is fraud. Sorry but its now sounding like criminal charges are in order and folks, if your going to do it you better do it before he names ya in a bankruptcy petition cause once that happens he can avoid any criminal charges.


----------



## piperspuppy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

So sorry to hear that you and so many more are "still" having issues with this guy. I'm just really lucky to have gotten reimbursed from him... only after I threatened him with the Federal Government. I had gone through all the things you have mentioned and got no where. If you think about it, it is mail fraud since I sent him a check through the mail from an ad that was published in a magazine that Dadants puts out that I received through the mail. By the way, give Dadant's a call.. they publish his ads and because of my complaint, pulled his advertisment until he resolved the issues with me. Not sure if he is still doing ads through them or not, but worth a call. Anyway, I don't think he would want the Federal Government knocking on his door any time soon. Last he told me that he was going to file for bankruptcy and no one would get their money. From a little investigating I did, he has another apiary not to far from where he is set up in TN. Can't recall just now what the name of it was, but if I think of it, I'll let you know. He is a scam artist at it's best and really needs to be stopped. Hope you all get your money back, cause it doesn't look like he'll ever deliver the bees. Good luck and let me know how it turns out. The BBB and Consumer Affairs people should still have my complaint that I filed last year. If you need to have that info let me know and I'll email it to you.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Since my soon to be ex-wife will soon own the company (which is what she wants), you should contact her lawyer Aisha Rahman, at (865) 637-0484.


----------



## riverbee1

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

RE: LONG CREEK APIARIES/WINTERS APIARIES
*MY YEAR WITHOUT HONEY BEES 
*
I am a humble beekeeper who likes my privacy, however, looks like many beekeepers are in the same ‘beehive’ of being swindled out of money and honey bees David Winters promised to send. This is my experience, and I would like to share it with you.

This is my first year without honey bees, because of David Winters. I ordered 7 packages from David Winters in February 2010 and sent him a cashier’s check for $740.00, which David Winters cashed 3 days later. I was promised delivery of bees on numerous dates from the 1st of May through the 14th of June, 2010, when I finally canceled my order. I demanded a full refund. I hired an attorney to send a demand letter. My attorney has received no response from David Winters to date, and David Winters has ignored the demand letter, and I have no refund.

I have been swindled out of $740.00, not to mention the expenses for long distance phone calls to David Winters, and the costs relative to receiving package bees and preparing healthy hives. I have built up a very good client base for my honey products, and David Winters has cost me this business and income for this year. I have paid an attorney and incurred additional alternative costs and time to recover the money David Winters stole from me.

David Winters does not answer his phone or reply to emails. David Winters has insulted me with a number of arrogant emails, false claims of personal problems, and continues to remind me that shareholders are not liable for Long Creek Apiaries debt. 

First, David Winters personal problems are not my problems and further, I feel these are private matters. 

Most importantly, as a business owner and a former investigator, a shareholder who pierces the corporate veil CAN be held personally accountable and liable. I would like to point out that FRAUD is not dischargeable, under any circumstances. A shareholder can be held personally liable.

I have been doing business with David Winters and Long Creek Apiaries for several years. For the past two years the Russian bees i have ordered from David Winters have died. All of them. Beekeeper error or problem supplier? Queens were clipped when I did not order clipping. Delivery dates were never on time. Confirming a delivery date was impossible. 3 queens were sent to the wrong delivery address and they sat in a mailbox in 90 temps. Receipts for payments were never sent, emails were rarely answered and David Winters was very hard to reach by phone. The Russians Winters claimed and advertised as pure Russians, are not; they were and are hybrids. David Winters falsely claimed that he was a member of the Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association. Before I realized the bees were not pure Russians as David Winter’s claimed, it was too late, I had already placed my order and sent him money.

I have been keeping Russian bees since I started beekeeping. Russians are very winter hardy, mite resistant and good honey makers. With good management practices and knowledge of Russian bee characteristics, a beekeeper will do well and the bees can survive harsh northern winters. I have had much success. There are many variables, but I did not have the honey bee losses until I started ordering from David Winters. Because Russians are hard to come by, I ignored all the warning signs and that is my fault and my error.:doh:

It is hard to get bees now. There are crashes and weather problems. The costs for packages and queens are going up, unless we raise our own. Our customer’s, families, and friends ask questions more than they ever did because of all the press about honey bee losses. It is hard work whether you are a hobby beekeeper, a side liner or a commercial beekeeper. A beekeeper really never gets paid for what we do. We keep wild stinging things in a box just for fun.

Under the current state of honey bees, for me, it is hard to understand another beekeeper, David Winters, stealing, and swindling from me, another beekeeper. :scratch:

David Winters full name is William David Winters. David Winters also has another website, WINTERS APIARIES, for which he is advertising sales for 2011. The website in July stated plainly that Winters Apiaries was A Long Creek Apiaries, Inc. Company. That has been removed. There is a different address, but David Winters phone number.

For every statement David Winters has made on this forum and by email to me relative to his personal problems regarding divorce litigation or hinting bankruptcy, these claims are false. I have checked David Winters claims through the appropriate agencies. (see below)

I may not recover my money or bees that were stolen from me, but I do have alternatives, and actions I can take so that other beekeepers do not follow in my disappointing footsteps. I would like to explain what I have done.

*FILED COMPLAINTS WITH THE FOLLOWING AGENCIES:*

***Office of the Attorney General Tennessee Division of Consumer Affairs –online or by mail

***Phone call to E. Ross White, Asst. Director Tenn. Div Consumer Affairs (above) Direct phone #: 615-532-8278, I picked up the phone and call him. Mr. White told me that the Tennessee Division of Consumer Affairs would like to receive more phone calls and complaints like mine. Mr. White asked me to encourage anyone i knew with a similiar complaint as mine to call or file a complaint with their office.

***Us Postal Inspection Service Mail Fraud, Memphis, Tennessee-online or by mail. This office asked me to encourage anyone i knew with a similiar complaint as mine to file a complaint as i have.

***Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection-online only

***Internet Crime Complaint Center (FBI based organization)-online only

***Better Business Bureau of Tennessee-online only

*OTHER THINGS I CAN DO:
*
*******e County General Sessions Court-File a civil judgment against Long Creek Apiaries-phone # 423-623-8619, it will cost me $170.00 to file.

*******e County Sheriff’s Office, Newport, Tennessee - I can place a phone call and report a theft of my money.

*** Have an attorney send a demand letter to David Winters.

***Contact David Winters Attorney, Mr. Clyde Dunn, phone number 423-623-5756. His name and phone number are a matter of public record.

***Contact his wife’s attorney, To dispel David Winter’s claim that his wife will soon own the company. I will not post his wife’s name, I don’t feel this is appropriate. As stated by David Winters, the attorneys number is 865-637-0484.

*** Petition for and obtain a Full Faith and Credit Judgment in my state. This is available to me and is recognized and enforced in the State of Tennessee.

*** Send an email or contact a Tennessee newspaper. - I can send an email or contact a Tennessee Newspaper about my experience.

***American Bee Journal- send an email and reaffirm what others have. They will not run David Winters ads until he redeems himself with all customers.

***Bee Culture Magazine-send an email and reaffirm what others have. They too will not run David Winters ads until he redeems himself with all customers. 

***Department of Agriculture, Tennessee State Apiarist, Mike Studer- I can send him an email or letter about what happened to me.

***Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association- I can send Charlie Harper an email about what happened to me.

***I can report my experience to my local beekeepers association, if my association has a website; I can encourage them not to place a link to Long Creek Apiaries or Winters Apiaries website.

***I can report my experience to my supplier.

***I can report my experience or make a comment of my experience to an organization/website that carries links to Long Creek Apiaries or Winters Apiaries.

*PUBLIC RECORDS THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO ME:
*
***U. S. Bankruptcy Court, Eastern District of Tennessee, Greeneville, Tennesse, phone number 423-787-0113, press 0 for assistance. I just asked them to do a search under David Winter’s name or Long Creek Apiaries, and they told me whether he has filed for bankruptcy or not(he has not as of 9-22-2010), and if he does, I can call in the future and they can advise me of the status of the case.

***Tennessee Department of State, Tennessee Business and UCC Fillings for Corporate papers filed for Long Creek Apiaries. Website:
http://www.state.tn.us/sos/bus_svc/. Online, I can view and print off Long Creek Apiaries Cooperation Corporate papers and history. I selected ‘business information search’ in the box. UCC filings are liens filed against a particular company. Long Creek Apiaries has no liens currently filed.

*******e County Tennessee County Court Clerk, phone # 423-623-6176. I requested the status of a divorce between David Winters and his wife. This is public record. David Winters filed for divorce June 4, 2009. As of the date of this post there are no settlement discussions on the table, the wife has not asked for the business and there has been no court/attorney activity on this case for sometime. David Winters claims about divorce settlement are false.

I am willing to help or answer questions relative to my post, just send me a pm.

Best regards to all,
riverbee

Long Creek Apiaries, Winter's Apiaries, David Winters, William David Winters


----------



## Mike S

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Thanks for your post Riverbee1 I will follow up on the contacts you posted. You went to a lot of time trouble making this post, thanks for your effort.


----------



## beemandan

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



riverbee1 said:


> I have been doing business with David Winters and Long Creek Apiaries for several years. For the past two years the Russian bees i have ordered from David Winters have died. All of them. Beekeeper error or problem supplier? Queens were clipped when I did not order clipping. Delivery dates were never on time. Confirming a delivery date was impossible. 3 queens were sent to the wrong delivery address and they sat in a mailbox in 90 temps. Receipts for payments were never sent, emails were rarely answered and David Winters was very hard to reach by phone.


Ok...I've got to ask. Why did you continue to do business with him?


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

ATTENTION GUESTS VISITING THIS FORUM: There are 17 pages of entries, but here is the critical information. Of 50 different people that posted here responsible for 165 posts, 28 are not or have never been my customers. Of the rest (22) that are my customers, only 8 have not been filled or refunded. Bottom line is that if you remove all the non customers and customers whose orders have been filled or refunded, then the 17 pages suddenly becomes about 3 pages more or less (a total of 18 posts). I understand that if you are one of the eight (one is too many) you probably are angry. At no time have I ever said that refunds will not be made. I must wait until litigation with my soon to be ex-wife is resolved.


----------



## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

David you may have never said that refunds will not be made, but you did say in June 2009 that I would get my refund in July 2009 still waiting.....


----------



## BeeCurious

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> *At no time have I ever said that refunds will not be made.*


*beemaster01,
*
*While you may not have said that **"refunds will not be made",** last October you told your customers:

"No bees will be shipped to anyone complaining here. It would just be another chance to post a negative remark. It is tempting to take a year or two off (take a long vacation)"
*
see posting #66 http://www.beesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=471992&postcount=66

Guests should also note that this thread was started on  08-12-2009, and from the numbers you provide, 2/3 of the complaints have been resolved... We can only guess at the amount of money owed to the other third.


It looks certain that "_Days of our Hives_" will be picked up for at least one more season...


----------



## BeeCurious

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Sir,

You need to explain how the weather prevented you from mailing the customer's money back. 

You kept their money, and used it as your own.


----------



## Mike S

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I'm in the third thats not getting the refund and I would like to know what the weather has to do with refunds?

I understand weather plays a big role in farming including bee keeping. Farmers don't get paid in advance for corn, hay, tobacco, cattle, etc. They don't have to worry about sending out refunds because of weather. When they have bad weather they take the hit on it not the customer.

I would gladly donate my refund to see your operations including your web site shut down completely. I hate to see you keep doing what you did to me and others to beekeepers, especially new ones that look so forward to getting their bees and getting started.

Might want to look into getting a job to settle up with your customers. Your customers have to work to afford to buy the bees from you.


----------



## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Yes I have been very patient , I even gave him another chance to redeem his debt to me this season, the second time he promised on many different dates that i was next, that he was filling 2009 orders before he filled any orders he took this spring of 2010. But then I found out that he filled a few small 2010 orders instead of my 2009 order for 10 packages... heck I even offered him the chance in the winter 2009-2010 to send me payments in increments, only to be ignored. until I got a confirmation e-mail for the delivery of 10 packages of bees in Feb. 2009 to be delivered in May 2010. I'm sorry but I'm at the end of my patience, I didn't air my dirty laundry on this forum, to see if he would actually follow up on his promises, but as we all know this man is not a person who knows how to communicate, or be sure that the customer comes first if you are ever to do business with him


----------



## OrionBee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

In addition to running his apiaries, I am sure that he also runs a Satellite/Satellite Internet under something like the name of 'Wild Blue'. I have seen advertisements in a hobby shop that has the name "David Winters" on it. I am sure that David Winters is not a common name, and certainly not a common name in Parrotsville.

Mr. Winters, I would give up trying to defend your operation, as well as your reputation. Your reputation among even the local clubs is bad as I have heard horror stories from them as well. You have tried to fight your battle, hitting below the belt at times, and I must say you have been sunk like the Bismark -- fighting a battle where you are outnumbered and where you have made people's hopes, aspirations, and lives living hell.

Also be aware of this one 
http://caucasianbreeder.com/

May I also add he clips all the queens he sells, even if you don't ask. I ran into this the first and only time and final time that I ordered from him. Clipping is cruel and inhumane to the queen itself.


----------



## BeeCurious

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> THAT IS NONE OR YOUR BUSINESS.


beemaster,

Most people would agree with you that any relationship issue is a private matter. Most people may also wonder why you were so willing to make your divorce public on Beesource.



> Since my soon to be ex-wife will soon own the company (which is what she wants), you should contact her lawyer Aisha Rahman, at (865) 637-0484.


*

As for this, in reference to you clipping all of your queens:*


> Question: You must be one of those PETA people, what are you doing on a beekeeping forum?


PETA has nothing to do with it, as you know. 

Don't most of the knowledgeable beekeepers and your queen-breeding peers believe that clipping can result in queen rejection? 
That's a rhetorical question... we know the answer.


I wish you had responded to this posting:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=585074&postcount=171

And this one:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=556890&postcount=137

Is "American Bee Supply" going to be your new business name?

If you are not doing business, shouldn't you remove or change your website on GoDaddy?

​


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



BeeCurious said:


> beemaster,
> 
> 
> Is "American Bee Supply" going to be your new business name?
> 
> If you are not doing business, shouldn't you remove or change your website on GoDaddy?
> 
> ​


I don't own americanbeesupply.com. Sorry to disappoint you.


----------



## BeeCurious

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> I don't own americanbeesupply.com. Sorry to disappoint you.


I'm not one of the disappointed, I get Russian queens from Charlie Harper...

But you are confusing two things:

I never said anything about "americanbeesupply.com", but American Bee Supply Inc seems to be next door to you at 3225 Long Creek Rd. There has been some use or registration of that name, at that address.

The website I was asking about is yours. If you are not doing business shouldn't your website, http://www.longcreekapiaries.com/ reflect that?


----------



## G3farms

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

public information on the internet is so exciting and revealing.........
The first Am. bee supply was a legitimate business, had bought from them before, very nice fella.

http://tnbear.tn.gov/ECommerce/Common/FilingDetail.aspx?FilingNum=000419528

Click on the history and registered agent, been shut down for a while.

here is some more public info...........

http://tnbear.tn.gov/ECommerce/Common/FilingDetail.aspx?FilingNum=000525786


----------



## BeeCurious

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> But the pig is still nothing more than a pig



Beemaster01,

In posting #117 ,in June, some friendly advice was offered:

"Why don't you do yourself a big favor and simply stop responding to the postings here."

You just missed another opportunity... 





beemaster01 said:


> I don't own americanbeesupply.com. Sorry to disappoint you.


No, but you did own American Bee Supply, and I guess the assets of Long Creek Apiary will soon be liquidated as well. I tell you what, while I despise the way you've treated your customers, you've got my sympathy... (and I'm glad you don't have my money).


Bankruptcy can't be fun to go through and I believe that the people you owe money to understand that. Some honest, frank conversations may have done a lot of good...

I hope the customers get their money eventually and I hope you have the support you need to go through this period. I also hope you treat your Mountain Grey Caucasian Bee customers differently. A Google search of "caucasian queens" has your *caucasianbreeder.com* site at the top so I guess that's a good thing.

Good Luck to you, and to your customers. 
.
..
.


----------



## riverbee1

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

To say the least, for me, this forum has been very informative…. and quite entertaining… especially the recent posts that were deleted for being off topic…. there is truth in humor :applause:

To add to the list of excuses of bankruptcy, divorce, and weather problems, this is what David Winters is now telling me regarding the $740.00 he has swindled from me: “*Not once have I refused to refund” (riverbee1’s) “money”. “Just not immediately.” “At no point have I refused to refund the money owed to (riverbee1)”, “Only that it will be repaid at a later date.” ????
* 
Repaid at a later date???? I am a beekeeper not a bank or a loan company.

Nonpayment of a refund to me is a refusal to pay.

Pure and simple to me:
David Winters actions speak louder than his words to me.
I do not have honey bees.
I have no refund.
101 days, or 3 months and 9 days, no refund.
This equals fraud to me.

David Winters told this forum in post #167 “_only 8 (Beesource members)”have not been filled or refunded.”_

This is what David Winters also told me, “*those 8 customers are responsible for all the complaints. About 90 % + of my unfilled orders will be filled in 2011. Of those not on Beesource that want refunds, all the rest are willing to wait until later for their refunds. Those customers do understand the relationship between the weather and queen breeders*.”

90% plus of his unfilled orders??? These customers are not on Beesource and are waiting for refunds or bees in 2011??? I’d like to hear from these customers.

I must be a dummy beekeeper, and an impatient Beesource member and customer, when I don’t “understand the relationship between the weather and a” ‘beemaster01’”queen breeder.” _What does the weather have to do with not providing my refund?:scratch:_

Post #167 by David Winters, “_eight (one is too many), you probably are angry._”

Yes I am an unhappy customer:lookout:... and I know what happens when I open a snarly hive.

Today I am going to send another email to David Winters reminding him of the $740.00 he owes me and ask for it again. 
I just go to date calculation:
http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duration.html, I type in the date I asked for my refund, and today’s date, and i send David Winters an email with that information. 

*101 days, or 3months and 9 days I have been asking and waiting for my refund.*
*:no:*


----------



## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Thanks for the post riverbee1, I got you beat in both categories, I sent a check in Feb. 2009, cashed Mar. 3, 2009. I asked for my refund on june 20ish 2009, promised to see it in July 2009. So $936.90 with interest that I have paid monthly, $90.25, and promised bees both spring 2009 and spring 2010, is 463 days, $1027.15 dollars out of my pocket plus the honey crop, etc. that I counted on as pay back on my investment. I tried to be the nice guy and wait for bees a second time, but you know what they say about where nice guys finish....


----------



## riverbee1

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Grizbee, that really stings!inch:
I too am paying interest on my $740.00 I sent in good faith to David Winters, and other expenses I borrowed from my bank to get ready for my bees; a $200.00 solar fencer and extra batteries, to keep the bears out of my apiary, pollen patties, honey b healthy, fumigilan-b, and two 50 pound bags of sugar. A little over a $1,000.00. My time to file complaints. I too, depended on a honey crop as my payback. I will not have that this year, or the income, and it will set me back. 

I will also have to borrow an additional $800 to order bees this year, so I will most likely be paying interest on $1800 or so.

I email David winters frequently to remind him how many days it has been since I asked for my refund of $740.00. I thought about your post about the interest, so I sent David Winters, and his attorney, an ‘invoice’ detailing the money David winters owes me plus the interest my bank is charging me……. 

Seems I will be at the end of the line for David Winters refunding my money. I am behind you and Mike S. and others in this forum because _this is what David Winters told me when I asked for my money and questioned him about the complaints of refunds dating back to 2008 (long before the filing of his divorce_); “*You are correct, I will refund in order of receipt. It is only fair, I have owed them longer than you and they should be refunded before you*.” 

Uh-oh…. _you have been waiting for over a year_???

There was some discussion here about American Bee Supply so I contacted the Tennessee Department of State, Business Services Division, and the Tennessee Department of Revenue. David Winters company, American Bee Supply, Inc was dissolved and revoked for revenue reasons on June 28, 2005. Both government agencies told me American Bee Supply was “_dissolved and the business license was revoked by the Tennessee Department of Revenue for delinquency of taxes, including one or more of the following: business back taxes, sales and use tax, franchise tax, or excise tax, depending on the nature of the business_.” The Tenn. Dept of Revenue also told me that David Winters could not engage in business under American Bee Supply until taxes were paid in full, including penalties and interest.

I also did a domain search. David Winters acquired the domain name, Long Creek Apiaries, on November 11, 2005, 4 months after American Bee Supply was revoked for revenue reasons by the Tennessee Department of Revenue.

According to domain searches I did, David Winters has 11 domain names registered to his email address of [email protected]: here are 5: Long Creek Apiaries.com, Caucausianbreeder.com, WildblueTennessee.com, RussianBreeder.net, and Honeybeebreeder.com. 

I have 4 email addresses for David Winters: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; and [email protected].

I have 2 addresses for David Winters:
3223 Long Creek Road and 3225 Long Creek Road, Parrottsville, Tennessee.

What does this information add up to? Hmmmm, makes me wonder if I will ever see my money. I wish I had found this forum when it started.

220 days or 7 months and 6 days since I sent David Winters a cashier’s check for $740.00, cashed 6 days later by David Winters, March 9, 2010.

101 days or 3 months and 9 days since I demanded a refund from David Winters.


----------



## Mike S

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Riverbee1 you are doing a great job on your research and proving to the public with facts and not opinions what type of businessman David Winters really is. I feel sorry for you and Grizbee for your huge loss's, wasted time and aggravation, its a shame someone has to go through these things. I was lucky and only wanted to try some Russian bees along with the ones I already have and only ordered two packages. It still is a bad feeling knowing what has happened and how we have been treated by this business. I hope others are paying attention and don't fall into the same trap as ourselves especially with the new business already in operation on the net. under a new name. I'm sure there are many people in the country who are not a member of the forum getting into the beekeeping hobby and wont find the warning soon enough and I hate it for them too. I also wish I had found the thread sooner and avoided all the trouble and loss of money. I haven't let the experience hamper me in the beekeeping hobby and I'm still going full steam ahead. The hobby, or industry is too interesting and exciting to let one individual spoil it. Beekeeping is good for our environment, good for the country's food supply, and I believe good for the soul and I hope not too many people have been discouraged. Again thanks for all your work and hopefully one day positive things will come from it.


----------



## Omie

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

What _is_ the topic of this thread?


----------



## dragonfly

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



Omie said:


> What _is_ the topic of this thread?


The topic of the thread is *Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*. That would be business dealings, since the purpose of the Consumer Reports forum is to "Share your experience with merchants and suppliers, both positive and negative" as stated at the top of the page. It's not a public trial of the business owner, or a forum for personal insults. We're not here to have a trial by jury, then proceed toward punishment based on personal feelings. It's not a place for airing dirty laundry and posting private emails or private messages.


----------



## riverbee1

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I respect the forum rules, and appreciate dragonfly’s response regarding the subject of this forum, ‘business dealings with Long Creek Apiaries.’


I went to the bank today to make a payment on my loan of $740.00 plus interest (including additional monies borrowed in preparation of receiving package bees). Money I borrowed from my bank to pay David Winters, of Long Creek Apiaries, _in good faith ,_ (_as he asked_ _and required_) for bee packages David Winters didn’t deliver, and money David Winters has never refunded and refuses to refund to me. Money, in the form of a cashier’s check, David Winters promptly cashed and stole from me.


David Winters does not reply to emails, letters and telephone calls about refunding my money.


I cannot afford to have $740.00 stolen from me. I cannot afford to pay interest on a loan from my bank because of David Winters, with nothing to show or gain from it. In addition, I will have to pay out another $800.00, borrowed from my bank to pay another supplier for package bees in spring 2011. 



This is my business dealings with David Winters of Long Creek Apiaries.


----------



## fitz

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I ordered four pkgs of Russians from Long Creek Apiary in spring 2009. Bees did not arrive as promised...weather was to blame. I agreed to roll the order to 2010. After several shipping delays (for various reasons), I canceled my order on 26 June 2010 and requested a refund...still haven't received a refund as of today - 15 Oct 2010...approx 18 months after the order was placed and my check was cashed.

Earlier this week, I telephoned the TN State Apiary Inspector...was advised that I wasn't the first to inquire about this business.


----------



## beecrazy101

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

well I dont think it would have mattered anyway if you got your bees. I recieved my package of bees on July 1, 2010 only ordered one. Had a few troubles starting out but got some help through it on here. My bees started to do good but the queen just never started to lay at much at all. Left them alone hoping for the queen to start laying to get the population up a alittle. Nothing. Now I have a very small hive of bees and seems like every time I go out there, there are less and less. I won't make it through the winter in Alabama but I am ordering from Dixie next year. I have enough for four hives now. Learned what I need to this year, considering this is my first year, and hoping to get on with my new founded hobby with people that care. Thanks for the lesson. Sorry to keep hearing about others dealings.


----------



## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Sorry to hear your story fitz, sounds just like mine, same song with a different verse, the last straw for me and my patience with David Winters is when he filled 2010 orders, and left us with rollover orders from 2009 holding the bag...


----------



## riverbee1

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I suspect that the administrators know where to find us….and I have seen many posts deleted in this forum about Long Creek Apiaries because of the personal attacks or inappropriate comments by those of us posting, and by David Winters as well. My ‘bee hat' is off to barry or dragonfly. I wouldn’t want to patrol the postings. This forum provides a place to openly discuss the problems I have experienced with David Winters, and may help another beekeeper. As a consumer, I would have appreciated this forum before I sent my money, and now appreciate it for the information and facts I have learned, and friendships i have made with other beekeepers across the U.S.A..


I have made a number of posts in this forum about David Winters and Long Creek Apiaries, and whatever I have posted, _I have said directly__ to David Winters_, by email, letter and telephone, and plenty more. I do not hide behind my user name. David Winters knows full well who I am, and has outright refused to refund my money of $740.00; ignores my attorneys demand letters, and continues to blame his “soon to be ex-wife”, _who has no voice here_, for his apparent financial difficulties, and lack of customer service.


_Most importantly_, in all the years I have ordered from Rossman’s, Maxant, Dadant, Betterbee, Mann Lake or other companies I have given my hard earned money to, _I have never been refused a credit to my account or been refused a refund, and further, I have had these companies and others adjust my bill or give me additional customer service to correct a situation, to keep my business._

_I have never had any of these companies ig__nore my phone calls, emails or letters as David Winters has._ I have never had to hire an attorney to assist me to recover money stolen from me that I have paid to them. 

I cannot say that about David Winters of Long Creek Apiaries. This is not a personal attack, for me this is a fact.


I have never had any of these businesses say to me as David Winters recently told me, “_Your decision to borrow the money has nothing to do with me. The bees could have died after you got them or many other things could have happened_*. You assumed the risk when you borrowed the money.”*

Well, I guess I did assume the risk, shame on me.:doh: I have never had a beekeeping business, large or small, steal $740.00 from me, and in my eyes, have the arrogance to refuse my refund, and blame their wives. I have never had a business take money from me and not provide the product, or my refund. I have never had a business not try to correct the problem or apologize for a mistake. I have never had a business tell me* I assumed the risk of ordering from them.*

I had $740.00 stolen from me by David Winters. This is not a personal attack, it is a fact. I won’t sit still for having money stolen from me. I won’t sit still for a a company and an owner, David Winters of Long Creek Apiaries, that is taking orders and money from other beekeepers for 2011, but yet can’t pay money owed to me for bees he did not, and most importantly, could not deliver in 2010.

It is 117 days or 3 months, 25 days, since I have asked for my refund of $740.00. I have no refund. $740.00 is a lot of money to me. There are others in this forum who have been waiting for a refund longer than me. 
:waiting:

This is a fact and not a personal attack.


----------



## riverbee1

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

i would like to add some additional information to my post's, 164, 180,182 and 192. 

David Winters of Long Creek Apiaries also owned an additional business, _Smokey Mountain Bee Company, Inc. _, in the state of Tennessee. I can click on the link to view the entity detail with the Tennessee Department of State. William D. Winters of 3310 Kenyon Road, Parrottsville, Tennesse incorporated the business on April 4, 1994. The record shows _Smokey Mountain Bee Company, Inc. _is inactive and shows 'Dissolution/Revocation Adminstrative' on January 19, 1996.

I also found another domain name David Winters owns, _Honeybeestore.com_. _Honeybeestore.com_ takes me to his other website Winters Apiaries or Caucasianbreeder.com. The link I have provided is his domain information, under the name _William Winters._

I also checked with the Better Business Bureau, there has been a couple more complaints filed with them since I last checked. The Better Business Bureau has given Long Creek Apiaries an 'F' rating. i can look at the number of complaints filed, for what reasons, and if any have been resolved; _Better Business Bureau/Long Creek Apiaries_. (geez, i remember getting an 'F' in school....)

I never really ever used the Better Business Bureau to check out a company until I did business with David Winters of Long Creek Apiaries and had $740.00 stolen from me by him. Lesson learned, i get an 'F' for trusting David Winters of Long Creek Apiaries.

better business bureau/long creek apiaries


----------



## NorthernIllinoisPlumber

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Is this guy operating under a new name?


----------



## BeeCurious

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



NorthernIllinoisPlumber said:


> Is this guy operating under a new name?



Possibly...

Go to http://push2check.com/ and enter any domain name you may have in mind. There's a lot of choices of information available.

You can can check his HTML code for example.


----------



## riverbee1

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

let's see....
if your looking for him, last i checked.....

long creek apiaries
caucausianbreeder.com
honeybeebreeder.com
honeybeestore.com
russianbreeder.biz
russianbreeder.net
russianhoneybees.com
vshbreeder.net
and 
winters apiaries.....

BTW, he still owes me $740 from last spring, 2010; for bees he did not deliver as promised, and a refund that i have asked for since june 2010.


----------



## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Thanks for reopening this thread,and I must state that I too am still waiting for my refund of $936.90 that I have asked for since june of 2009. Also I just had an anniversary, David you cashed my check on Mar 3,2009 and I still have nothing to show for it, I sure hope you can give me a reason to post something positive here in the near future


----------



## Radical Bee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I too am stuck for the price of 5 queens ordered paid for a couple of years ago before it seems he started stiffing his customers. Despite occasional reassurances from him that he would take care of it there has been no refund or the appearance of any serious effort to make ammends. 

I tried speaking to Dadant in Paris Tx. in person when there but the owner there showed NO interest in or any concern for the business practices of their ABJ advertisers so i no longer will do any business with them either. 

The only time i have ever seen him try to correct his thefts was when the home office of Dadant got involved...this was during the time he was operating as LongCreekAparies and advertising in the ABJ. He must have advertising to stay in business, so unless someone can find the media and name of his company advertising in it and pressure can be brought thru same i am not optomistic on any of us seeing our money returned. I do wish everyone well who keeps after this guy though.:applause:


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

The goals for Long Creek in 2011 are 1) fill all orders from past years, 2) refund all money for those that don't want the bees, 3) fill all current orders and 4) when all this is done, retire. After following a couple other threads here (see Busybee Apiaires and Russell Apiaries, I concluded that it isn't ever going to get any better as long as this site and other similar sites exist. I remember when beekeepers (not beehavers) understood that this business is farming. Unfortunately that is no longer the case.


----------



## wolfpenfarm

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> The goals for Long Creek in 2011 are 1) fill all orders from past years, 2) refund all money for those that don't want the bees, 3) fill all current orders and 4) when all this is done, retire. After following a couple other threads here (see Busybee Apiaires and Russell Apiaries, I concluded that it isn't ever going to get any better as long as this site and other similar sites exist. I remember when beekeepers (not beehavers) understood that this business is farming. Unfortunately that is no longer the case.


When dealing with taking orders from people, that are not currently in your possession, the only way to do this without getting your butt in a sling is to escrow the money received until you fill the orders. It is a very poor business practice to operate on monies received before you deliver the product. This business is unlike one where you have a supplier with a warehouse of product that all you have to do is drop ship. 

there really is no justifiable reason to spend the money before product is shipped and i think your learning that unfortunately too late.


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Comparing yourself to Russell Apiaries is a joke.

They have integrity. Yes they are farmers, and yes they got caught by the weather this year. Are their customers worried? No. They know RA will deliver, but if due to some natural disaster (that hasn't happened) they could not deliver, they have the integrity to return the customers money. Just add here that to my knowledge that has never had to happen.

So sad you would think you are in the same league.

Great to see the goals you have written. Your track record though is that it will just be talk, what will REALLY happen is that you will continue to steal peoples money and ruin their beekeeping experience. 

My advice, get a job. Get away from running your own business. Sell assetts or do whatever it takes to return to people what you have taken from them. Your personality, business skills, and ethics, are such that continuing to run your own business you will just continue to dig a deeper hole for yourself.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

You chose to intentionally miss the point. The reference is to the pages and pages of complaints when no complaints should have been made. There is no better way to make my point than you just did by way of personal attacks.


----------



## camero7

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I ordered queens from Russell - there is no chance that I would order anything from you.


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> You chose to intentionally miss the point. The reference is to the pages and pages of complaints when no complaints should have been made. There is no better way to make my point than you just did by way of personal attacks.


Didn't see any reference.

Are we on the same planet?

I saw a thread about dealing with Russell Apiaries, the thread starter upset cos his order was delayed, other than that pages and pages of support for Russell Apiaries.

Should suggest that thread starter deal with you. Then he'll find out what a real problem is.

I repeat. Pay back what you have taken from people. Only then will you have cred. Your words mean nothing. And stop repeat offending.
I don't think you see yourself as a scammer. But you ARE a scammer.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



camero7 said:


> I ordered queens from Russell - there is no chance that I would order anything from you.


[/I]
It doesn't really matter. When I am square with everyone, I'm quitting. You can continue beating up up on other people.


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> [/I]
> When I am square with everyone.


Talk. Why not just do it?


----------



## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

David I'm eagarly waiting to see my check in the mailbox after seeing your post. I will be more than happy to post here when I receive it as I said in my previous post


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



Grizbee said:


> ..... I will be more than happy to post here when I receive it as I said in my previous post


I am certain that will be an exception rather than the rule.


----------



## applepollinator

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I contacted Mr. E. Ross White, Asst. Director of Tennessee Consumer Affairs regarding Long Creek Apiaries not sending the bees I paid for in 2010, or not refunding my money. Mr. White suggested that we should have as many people as possible file a complaint with their agency, at www.tn.gov/consumer. He feels that if they receive a number of complaints, they may be able to help. One complaint is not enough, but many complaints can make a difference. He also suggested filing a complaint with the Internet Crime Complaint Center (this is an FBI partnered organization). I have done both of these.



Radical Bee said:


> I too am stuck for the price of 5 queens ordered paid for a couple of years ago before it seems he started stiffing his customers. Despite occasional reassurances from him that he would take care of it there has been no refund or the appearance of any serious effort to make ammends.
> 
> I tried speaking to Dadant in Paris Tx. in person when there but the owner there showed NO interest in or any concern for the business practices of their ABJ advertisers so i no longer will do any business with them either.
> 
> The only time i have ever seen him try to correct his thefts was when the home office of Dadant got involved...this was during the time he was operating as LongCreekAparies and advertising in the ABJ. He must have advertising to stay in business, so unless someone can find the media and name of his company advertising in it and pressure can be brought thru same i am not optomistic on any of us seeing our money returned. I do wish everyone well who keeps after this guy though.:applause:


----------



## Bee Man

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

All I can say running a small honey business is you never cash someones check if you can't send them what they ordered. Am I missing a basic business concept. You are then liable to deliver once you cash their payment. Folks who are waiting over 2 years for queens they ordered and never delivered is plain and simple, fraud. Words do not overcome actions?


----------



## Omie

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Yep, taking people's money and not sending them what they bought and not refunding their money is plain and simple _fraud_. You can talk all you want about why it happened, excuses, and intentions for future repayment, blah blah blah, but it doesn't change the basic fact that it's _criminal fraud_.


----------



## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Hello David, After reading your post stating your goals for the 2011 season I assumed that I would be at the top of your list for a refund from a package order from 3/5/2009. I'm still looking in my mailbox every day for that refund, just a reminder 30 days after my last post


----------



## matt1954

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I think by this time you know that the money is gone. Unfortunately, this happens all too often not only with agriculture but in all industries. As a retired law enforcement officer, I can echo what applepollinator said. File the complaint and if enough are filed both the state and the FBI will file criminal charges. The beauty of the federal charge is that the more complaints filed equal multiple counts. In addition, as a citizen, you do have the right to appear before a federal magistrate and swear out a federal complaint against the individual. It may not lead to an arrest warrant, but will generate a referral to a United States Attorney for review and consideration. If enough people do it, someone will take notice. It's the only way to get these folks off the street.


----------



## riverbee1

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Like grizbee, I have been in relentless pursuit to recover my money. I may never see it, and I have spent countless hours pursuing every avenue available, including hiring an attorney or two. I have been receiving emails and phone calls, for over a year from hundreds of beekeepers all across the United States. Based on the content of these emails, David Winters of Long Creek Apiaries owes hundreds of beekeepers a very substantial amount of money. In addition, David Winters continues to take orders and money from unsuspecting beekeepers. My opinion, but they won’t see their money and they won’t see their bees based on his history. 

Swearing out a federal complaint requires that the complaint be sworn out and filed in the state of Tennessee, and that you also make yourself available to the court _if_ charges are filed. This costs money and a lot of time. I live in the Midwest, and this is not a practical alternative for me or most other beekeepers.

The Tennessee Division of Consumer Affairs has been receiving complaints about David Winters for over a year. The most important thing we can do for ourselves, and others is to file a complaint with this office, and follow up with the agent assigned to your case. I have been doing it for a year, and I have been asking for prosecution not mediation. This is how it works, if enough complaints are received, the Tennessee Div of Consumer Affairs has the power to refer our complaints to the Tennessee Attorney General, for investigation, and prosecution. If David Winters is investigated, and if David Winters is prosecuted, the court may order restitution. See here: Protecting Consumers 

Btw, filing bankruptcy does not discharge anyone from criminal activity.

David Winters of Long Creek Apiaries owes me $740.00, for an order I placed on February 23, 2010. I have been demanding a refund since June 29, 2010. 10 months and 15 days, no refund. Many of you are in line way ahead of me on this.

David Winters said his goal here is to pay us all back. I don’t believe this either, and I don’t believe some of his incredible excuses I have heard from him during the past year. I suggest David Winters go to the bank and borrow the money like a lot of us did to pay him. Money I paid him, and money I am paying interest on.


----------



## ToddFiala

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I hope that I don't turn out to be another one who got ripped off. Before reading about Long Creek on this website, I ordered five packages of Russian bees. According to his website, the only delay is for the week of May 9th by one week. The rest are to be shipped on time. Well, mine were to be shipped the week of May 16th and I still have not heard from the local post office. I have been keeping in touch with the local post office and they know to call me as soon as the bees arrive, but they said no bee packages have arrived. I emailed Long Creek and left a phone message asking to inform me of any delays so that I may know when to expect delivery, but have not received any response. I wish that if weather was delaying any more deliveries, they could make it easy for customers and post it on their website. Otherwise, we can't help but wonder if our experience with them will be like some of the unhappy customers who have posted here. I am getting worried. I did see some happy Long Creek customers post messages, so that gives me some hope.


----------



## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Yes you may have reason to worry, sounds like the same story but a different chapter...May I ask where did you see happy customers post? I sit here waiting for a refund of $936.90 sent on 3/3/09 and hear about other people getting their orders filled from this season. My wife told me the other day that I was turning blue, I told her I was still holding my breath after walking down to the mailbox to see if my refund check was there for David Winters....


----------



## ToddFiala

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I don't spend much time on this forum, so I can't say which thread, or if it is still there. But when I did a search on Long Creek, I remember some positive responses. One said that his Russian packages from Long Creek out performed other races of bees in his same beeyard. If I remember correctly, he even had a picture showing how many supers he stacked on it. It is possible that I am thinking of something I saw on another website altogether, but I do remember the name Long Creek Apiaries with that post. I think there is a beekeeping forum on gardenweb. Maybe that is where I saw it?


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

If the guy has sold any bees at all, it's possible someone, somewhere, has had a good experience.

This does not negate the emotional turmoil he is inflicting on others.


----------



## camero7

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Given all the negative responses on this thread, one would have to bee a fool to order from this guy.


----------



## TIMER

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

It is amazing to me that this guy can continue to steal and get away with it.
Someday he will take money from the wrong person.
God be with him when that day comes.


----------



## TNBeek

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I am a brand new beek and live fairly close to Long Creek. I am scheduled to go and pickup my first package and queen from David this Sunday at 3:30 (Russians). I'll let you know how it goes. I'm more than a little concerned based on all of the negative threads.


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

My guess is if you are physically going there and actually seeing the guy, he will cough up the goods.

He will probably also launch a charm offensive on you and tell you how bad the world has been treating him.


----------



## Barry

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



TNBeek said:


> I'll let you know how it goes.


Why anyone would support this guy with current purchases when he owes people from orders taken months/years ago is beyond me. As Oldtimer said, you'll get a story from him for sure. Too bad people who have already paid him money can't get either their money back or the bees.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



Barry said:


> . ....Too bad people who have already paid him money can't get either their money back or the bees.


100% of these people won't take the bees so why don't you say "can't get their money back" which is inaccurate as I have never said that their money won't be repaid. Most of the postings here are from people that I have never had business dealings with but are here to create an impression on the uninformed. They hide behind their screen names because if they published their names, I can say "I have never done business with this person."

This should create another hundred or so responses. I wonder how high the counter on this forum will go.


----------



## Barry

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> as I have never said that their money won't be repaid.


Notice I didn't say "won't be repaid" but "can't get their money back." You've promised a lot of things to a lot of people. Now you're going to place the blame on these people for not wanting your bees.


----------



## Barry

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Mark, if you have questions or comments on how this forum works, please address it with a moderator in private. It is not open for general discussion.


----------



## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Alright David now you have hit a nerve.You know who I am, I wanted your bees,I felt that from discussions with you that this stock would be a good addition to my breeding stock.I gave you 2 seasons, waiting patiently for my bees,and being in N. Michigan there is a point where a package has no time to build up for a michigan winter, so asked for a refund after seeing no bees.I was told in 6/09, that I would get a check in 30 days.Then last season I saw that you shipped packages to people who ordered in the 2010 season, ignoring my order from 2009! so do you think I could trust you to come thru with bees this season? you specifically asked me if I wanted bees or a refund this year and my reply was send my refund. I have posted that I would give you a positive post when I see my check,and have again been more than patient.When you fire off a post like your last one it makes me feel that I am on your blacklist of people that will never see anything, bees or refund. I tryed to negotiate in private e-mails and never could get a response, so only then while saying I don't like to air dirty laundry in public, did I post on this forum.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> ....... Most of the postings here are from people that I have never had business dealings with but are here to create an impression on the uninformed.


I was not referring to you. I was referring to those who post here that are NOT my customers. If only those that were my customers posted on this thread, then it might be only a few pages long, depending on how many times each of them posted. Of course, Becky Bersch has a extensive blog dedicated entirely to this issue. So, it might be longer than a few pages after all but it would be repetitious.


----------



## baldwinbees

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

beemaster...you are a crook...a thief...some people don't have the money to throw away...you say you can't repay,why not?I received a dead package from you that was insured&you got the insurance payment....gee you are a real good crook...you got paid twice for 1 package&I don't have bees from you yet...no pity for you


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## TNBeek

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



Barry said:


> Why anyone would support this guy with current purchases when he owes people from orders taken months/years ago is beyond me. As Oldtimer said, you'll get a story from him for sure. Too bad people who have already paid him money can't get either their money back or the bees.


I paid for the bee package back in January before I discovered this forum. I wanted to get pure Russians due to their over wintering ability and the resistance to mites, ect. I also wanted to buy from a local source.
I can only report my experience. I met David today at his Apiary. Pleasant guy. I picked up the bee package that I will install today just before twilight. No problems. Everything so far just as promised.


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## Oldtimer

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Just shows, it's as was said. Show up in person and he'll hand over the goods, cos you are in his face, not just a faceless cheque to be banked and forgotten.

I'm not a customer and I don't have to be to see that the so called "beemaster", is not putting his clients out of the misery he has caused them. Of course, "beemaster" would like to limit who can talk on this thread and have the thread as small and low profile as possible. Unfortunately, he is not a moderator.

My right to comment on this issue, is that I am a beekeeper, and don't like to see this conscienceless parasite among us.

What surprises me though folks, is that this pathalogical liar is allowed to continue to ply his trade, of fraud, and even quite openly discussing it on the net. In my country he would have been dealt with by the law, upon even one complaint. Plus if it somehow had got this bad, he would have to be hoping the law would get to him, before some of his customers did. And they would.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

So I guess you aren't buying the Divorce reason for not repaying what is owed as fast as those owed wouild like?

How did that work out beemaster? Still got anything? Did she get her part of the Debts too?


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



sqkcrk said:


> So I guess you aren't buying the Divorce reason for not repaying what is owed as fast as those owed wouild like?


Who me?

No.

If he got divorced, any average lawyer would have ensured business debts were factored into the equation.

You see, the problem with this guy is regardless of whenever his divorce was, he continues to take peoples money and not deliver.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

The paperwork I completed with the post office listed Mr. Dunn as the payee. They were his bees the second they were shipped (FOB ship point). That is why they were insured. Standard practice of almost all queen breeders. This was clearly posted so they could be no question about it.


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## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



sqkcrk said:


> So I guess you aren't buying the Divorce reason for not repaying what is owed as fast as those owed wouild like?
> 
> How did that work out beemaster? Still got anything? Did she get her part of the Debts too?


She walked away from it with a cash settlement which will take me three years to pay. She got the best end of the deal (women almost always do).


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## baldwinbees

I guess for arguments sake I need to go back to the post office&ask our postmaster why she lied to me.I was told it was cashed out.Guess it must be a technical error on their part,so they could not pay me.


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## beemaster01

I checked my records to make sure before I responded. I know for a fact that I didn't receive the money as all losses (there were very few of them) were paid to the customers. If you didn't get the money, that is between you and the post office.

I think that you can file the claim again. I don't know if the post office will let you do that but it is worth a try.


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## SPRUCE BEE

Beemaster,

Just how many outstanding orders do you still have to fulfill; 10's, 100'a or more? We know you have three years to fulfill you divorce settlement with your ex-wife. What is your business plan on how & when you will fulfill or satisfy these outstanding bee-order obligations? We have not heard one comment from you on addressing these matters. If you are a good businessman I would thingk that would be a good place to start. Following this thread for the last couple of years, I for one would like to see this thread closed once & for all in a positive manner. All of the negativity like this (& a few other threads) hurts all of the bee industry. I wish you good luck with becoming a member in good standing again in the bee industry some day. Look at how much business you have lost from this thread (me for one).


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## beemaster01

You misunderstood what I said. I don't have three years, I have got to pay for at least three years. There isn't anything that I can say to change minds here. Just go back and read all the posts. Anything that I post will be met with a flurry of negative remarks from busybodies with nothing better to do.


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## lfzebra

My 2 pkgs came from Long Creek and were delivered on May 24,2011. So far, they have done well and are very gentle. I had good email correspondence from the time I ordered the bees in Nov 2010 until they were delivered. Would I order from Long Creek again? Yes, i have no reason not to.


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## beez2010

My packages ordered from Long Creek in late 2009 arrived today. They look healthy and full, although I just picked them up and haven't checked the queens yet. Mr. Winters called me and notified me he was shipping them. I was almost speechless...just said "Thanks". Am I happy with how Mr. Winters has operated his business? No. Would I order from him again? No. I am however, content to finally have my bees.


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## Oldtimer

OK Beemaster well you have risen in my opinion, by actually putting right some of the wrongs you have done in the past, rather than just talking about it.

This will go some ways to repairing your reputation, keep up the good work!


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## Francus

I have followed this thread with interest. I discovered it after my package order was late from Long Creek.

My package is now 3 weeks+ overdue. I have called/left messages a couple of times and not received a response. I have emailed on several occaisions. The only time I got a response by email was when I put "cancel order" in the subject line of my email. That was a Friday and and I was told my bees would ship the next Monday. That was 2 Mondays ago.

The website currently says 2 to 3 week delay, but it is obviously longer. Other recent recipients told me they were late about 2 weeks. 

I am still hopeful I will get my package, but as the season wears on and summer fast approaches I am becoming much less optimistic. At some point my guess is the heat will be such that the post office won't accept the orders for shipment anyway.

As a new beekeeper I didn't want to let yet another season slip by, so I purchased a local hive of mutts a week after my package was supposed to arrive. That said, I hope to get this package and I would like another hive anyway. But if they aren't going to come, I want my money back. I mentioned that in my emails to Long Creek, but no bees, no money. 

The people who have received packages this year seem to be satisfied. I would like to be able to say the same but it is looking less likely all the time.

Bottom line, I just want what I paid for. If that can't be delivered, I would like my money back. Not excuses. Sadly, at this point in the process I would have say I fall in the group of dissatisfied customers. Not the pissed customers, not yet. That depends on getting my bees or my money.

I will of course post if anything changes, one way or the other.


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## ToddFiala

Francus,

I am still waiting as well. The only time he responded was when I posted on this thread. Maybe he will contact you now? He told me in May that I have the option of bees or a refund. He said he would be shipping after the Holidays. I said to keep me on the shipping list at the time. Still, no bees. Soon it will be too late to start packages and get them built up for a Nebraska winter, especially if we run into a dearth. Earlier in this thread, someone suggested that customers be given an order number and that he post on his website which one he was on, that way we have some clue as to how close our order is. I like that idea. But now we just wait not knowing. I can only wish my five packages were only two weeks delayed like what some recipients told you. Mine were scheduled for shipping the week of May 16.

lfzebra, how did you manage to have good email correspondence with Long Creek? We want to know your secrets.

Todd


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## ToddFiala

I checked my email and David said that robbing from a lack of nectar flow is causing the delays. He said they just got some rain, so the nectar flow might start again. He will call me when they ship.

We have only had less than 1/4 inch in my part of Nebraska so far in June, so if we don't get some rain soon, we will be experiencing a dearth as well.

Todd


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## krad1964

I order two packages and have not heard anything, except for banner on website. Lack of communication is very frustrating.


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## Francus

Well, last Friday I was emailed and told my bees would be shipped Monday. It is now Friday again and the bees have had plenty of time to come the 4 hours from TN to my house. So, my bees are over a month late and I have recieved nothing but excuses. No bees, and no refund. Based on all I have read I can say I probably will never get a refund. If I am lucky I might get some bees in a year or two. Thank goodness I went ahead and got a hive locally once Long Creek's bees didn't show up on time.

Yes, I understand that bees don't do what we want a lot of times. I understand that due to weather issues they may not be making enough bees to send to all the orders. But that does not excuse telling me over and over my bees will be sent next and then not doing it. It also does not excuse not refunding my money. I paid for a product and have not received it. At this point, I doubt I will. It is too hot in my opinion to ship. And even if he emailed me (yet again) and promised to ship this coming Monday, I wouldn't buy it. 

As for what group I belong to? I am upset. I don't think I'm in the pissed group although I should be. $120 covers my gas for a month and it's my money until I get bees. I understand supply issues. But I also understand dealing honestly with the public. If you can't make the delivery on time you should contact the buyers and offer them their money back and tell them a precise delivery date if they wish to wait. This has not been done.

What has happened is that the lack of communication and failure to supply product or refund money has added another black mark to Long Creek. Every one of these marks just puts another nail in the coffin for his business. One more person out there who CANNOT RECOMMEND DEALING WITH LONG CREEK. In my time I have seen many good businesses go belly up because they cut corners and didn't deal with people in a forthright manner. It is a death of a thousand cuts and one easily avoided. Karma, it's what's for dinner.

So, to sum it up:

I don't have my bees a month later
I don't have a refund
I don't expect to get my bees or my refund
AND

Even if I do get my bees, the lack of response and the overall experience means I could not recommend doing business with Long Creek

I really wish it was different. I really wanted Carnis. 

So, there you have it. Another warning to others. Save your money and get your bees elsewhere.


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## llang

Here is his BBB review:

http://www.bbb.org/knoxville/busine...g-creek-apiaries-in-parrottsville-tn-90010951

I recommend every person with an issue file with the TN BBB and consider a complaint with the secretary of state....


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## beemaster01

llang said:


> Here is his BBB review:
> 
> http://www.bbb.org/knoxville/busine...g-creek-apiaries-in-parrottsville-tn-90010951
> 
> I recommend every person with an issue file with the TN BBB and consider a complaint with the secretary of state....


I just don't have the big bucks to buy an A+ rating like the big companies. They have been caught doing that, its a fact. Actually there is a reference to the rate buying scheme somewhere else on Beesource.

Here is an outside link to prove the point: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/business-bureau-best-ratings-money-buy/story?id=12123843


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## riverbee1

Excuse # xxx……

Instead of addressing the last several posts about not shipping bees when promised, providing refunds and no communication you yammer on about a bbb scheme. What is your scheme?

You have created your own 'f' rating, from your own unacceptable business practices, not the bbb.

Maybe you ought to focus on what you promised earlier in this thread, SHIPPING BEES and PROVIDING REFUNDS. (post # 194): 

“The goals for Long Creek in 2011 are 1) fill all orders from past years, 2) refund all money for those that don't want the bees, 3) fill all current orders “.

1 year ago on June 29, 2010, I demanded a refund from you for $740.00, where is it?


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## beemaster01

I really thought, with a normal year, we could get everything taken car of but again unusual weather nationwide has taken its toll on beekeepers and bee breeders. This situation is summed up very well by this article at : http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2011.06.27.15.30.archive.html written by none other than Kim Flottum at Bee Culture.

I will be offering single colonies for sale this year to obtain the money to pay all those that I owe. For those that are close enough to pick them up, you can apply your balance toward colonies of bees. If it means selling every hive that I own, so be it. I can't fight the weather as I have now lost that battle three years in a row. Quitting is not in my nature, but I know when I can't win. There are those that will not be satisfied until Long Creek is closed and they can wear their arms out patting themselves on the back. Sure I have made a lot of mistakes but I don't claim to be anything but human. But I will defend myself so don't see this as a sign of weakness. Forums and Blogs are not longer protected speech determined by a Supreme Court ruling which means you are responsible for what you write. Suit and countersuit. After all, if I must use money that would go to refunds to defend myself, why not fight back because the money is spent anyway. The only ones that make anything thing in the end is the lawyers. Long Creek has limited assets, not need wasting them on lawyers instead of refunds. Everyone will be repaid, it will just take some time. I expect 20 or 30 rebuttals but so be it.


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## llang

It is interesting how you cite weather and so forth.. claiming to be ethical while your business practices clearly demonstrate a total lcak of ethics. I just visited your website, I find it very interesting that you are still accepting orders for packages and queens. Yet based on customers here you are YEARS behind in shipping. One might think, if you were a man of your word, that you would STOP accepting orders and focus on "righting your wrongs". 

I am a business man myself... so I can appreciate the need of going bankrupt.. yeah it sucks to screw your old customers... but I frankly have to question why you continue to accept orders.. One might start to think you are running a ponzi scheme of bees.....

Also you might want to read your page entitled "Order Terms and Conditions". As one may consider this as a straight forward contract - buyers are acepting the terms upon purchase - however you also must abide by those conditions. Failure to do so becomes a straight forward breach of contract. 

Of course it is also interesting you no longer accept credit cards - Claiming you are protecting your customers from being cheated... That to me is a tell tale sign of poor ethics.. since this results in your POOR customers loosing ALL protection against a "business man" that is currently demonstrating ethics and rofessional behavior.. of course all of this is my personal opinion...


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## beemaster01

Maybe you need to refresh your cache as all that was changed days ago. Only thing you can order is queens after August 1st until august 31st.


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## HuNu Farm

Mr. Winters,
I'm not in the "ticked off" group and I'm not interested in busting your chops, but I am disappointed that I haven't received any updates or replies to my email inquiries. I really just want to know, will I get the 3# package of Russians that I paid for this year and is there any way we can work together to fill the order? I have a friend in Knoxville that I could probably get to pick up the bees and take them to a post office, but I'm so new at this, I don't know if it's too hot to ship them?
Thank you.


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## Francus

Agreed. What is the probability I will get my bees before it is too late in the season? And what can be done to facilitate getting the bees? I don't have the time to drive 9 hours round trip for the bees, though. 

And, if it can't be done, can I have a refund?


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## Francus

In a major shock to the system, I just received a call from the post office. My bees have arrived. A little late, but they're here. I'll know more once I picked them up.

This has raised my opinions somewhat, I must say. At least some orders are getting out.


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## Francus

OK, bees picked up. The package seems just fine. This is my first package ever so take that with a grain of salt. The bees were happily buzzing and very, very, very few dead ones on the bottom. I will hive them this evening.

Again, it seems to me he is trying to get a handle on this. I do hope he can continue to do so and I hope everyone gets their bees or refunds.


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## HuNu Farm

Wonderful news, Francus! Glad to hear you got your Carnis. Maybe good things will happen and the Russians will also start producing more bees that Mr. Winters can ship. Thanks for the update!


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## beemaster01

After 7 inches rain in the last 8 days, the sun is finally shining. We will be shipping starting on Tuesday. Can't ship the rest of this week because if there is only a short delay in the post office, bees won't arrive until Tuesday and will probably be dead. Russians have a very quick buildup, overwinter with fewer bees, and use less honey during the winter. Therefore you can start Russians much later than Italians and still have time to get them ready for winter. Most bee books are geared around Italians so much of the info there is wrong if you have Russians. I just wish that someone will write a bee book devoted to Russian bees.


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## HuNu Farm

I'm wishing us both good weather, Mr. Winters! We've been having horrible, unseasonable, unpredictable weather here in Missouri as well, and having a farm, we are familiar with and can sympathize with the setbacks and delay weather can cause. You probably would be able to write a very good book about Russians, based on your history with them (at least, from what I read on your website).


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## greybeardmike

I placed an order for two packages in January 2011 and can't get an answer to emails, and their voice mail box is full. How do you get in touch with these people? I am three hours driving time away. Since it is so late in the season I could possibly pick them up but can't even get in touch with them.


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## Francus

Communication with him is hit or miss. I never got a call back from voice mail I left. And I got maybe 25% or so response from email.

It is pretty late in the season. I live 4 hours away and considered driving to get my bees before they showed up. 

That is one of my major complaints here, the lack of communication. Someone earlier suggested he number the orders. Then he could just put "shipping orders 50-65 today" or something on his site and people could know what is going on. 

I hope you get your bees.


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## HuNu Farm

Just keep trying to reach him, either through this thread or emails. He emailed me yesterday that my Russians have shipped, and through the post office tracking, they should arrive here on July 7 - on my son's 4th birthday! That will be a special surprise for him, going to pick up his "birthday bees". He loves all things bees.

Long Creek Apiaries webpage is now showing he will be selling the colonies starting August 1. If you live so close that might be the best option, he will apply whatever you've already paid toward the colony.

I'll post after the bees arrive and I get them hived. Most other responses indicate the overall quality of his stock is really good.


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## ToddFiala

Long Creek posted on it's website that this is the last week they will be shipping packages. It looks like those of us that don't get bees this week will not get any. Last week he emailed me and said my bees are scheduled to ship on Tuesday, but I have not heard that they have actually been shipped. Good luck to all.


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## ToddFiala

Now I see Long Creek changed it to one or two weeks, depending on the weather.


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## Tom G. Laury

You guys should just move out to California and start shipping bees back home. We have too many out here.


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## beepriddy

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> To all 1000+ readers of this thread: Please count the the number of different people on this thread that are complaining. *FIVE!* That is *FIVE* out of hundreds of satisfied customers. It is sad that *FIVE* people can have such influence with only one side of the story. There are others on the tread offering advice based on one side of the story. I have no complaints with them. Such is the double edge of the internet.
> 
> Somewhere I read statistics years ago that to make up for the damage that 1 unhappy customer can do you have to make over 200 new customers to replace the revenue. This was in the day before the internet. So I truly hope you did and do have 1000+ happy customers you will need them. My experience with customer service has been where there is smoke there is fire.


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## JRing

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I almost bought a package of bees from LCA rather late in the season, but the tone of the email put me off, when I asked if they still had bees for sale. I did however buy from another supplier in TN and have been very happy with thier bees and service. I will email and ask questions often, and they are more than helpful. They were inspected and had no pest problem either.


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## llang

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Posted on his website... in the running banner:

FOR SALE STARTING AUGUST 1ST......Single colonies of bees for pickup at our apiaries.......$175.00 each......Consists of one brood box w/ten frames bees and honey, bottom, and flat top....All good solid equipment, no junk......All bees must go as I am retiring due to poor health.....Credit from unfilled orders can be applied to colony purchase if desired or will be repaid from proceeds......


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## Oldtimer

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Beepriddy, you can't count.


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## HuNu Farm

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I was notified Tuesday that my bees had shipped. The P.O. called at 6:50 am on Thursday that they had arrived. The package was in great shape - queen and 99% of the bees alive and happy. Got them in the hive yesterday. No complaints.


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## greybeardmike

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I was notified Wednesday that my bees had shipped. The Post Office called about 7:30 Friday morning to say they were here. The queens were alive but there were quite a few dead bees in one box. The temperatures have dropped back into the high 80s this week but extremely humid. They are in the hive now. I hope there is enough goldenrod and sumac around for a good fall build up for winter. Considering how much further south I am, I feel lucky to have gotten bees this year.


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## ToddFiala

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I am still waiting for my five packages of Russian bees ordered last December to be shipped the week of May 16. I understand that some of the people who recently recieved Russian bee packages ordered as late as April 16 of this year. I called Long Creek and finally got a hold of David and asked him when they are going to ship. I was told Saturday or Monday. Then I kindly told him that I have heard that line since May. I then asked him how many orders are ahead of mine. He just said not many. Now I just find out through this website that his policy of shipping in order received without exceptions is not being followed. Hey beepriddy, you mentioned that you have experience in customer service, how would you handle this? I am extremely discouraged right now and have little faith in my order being sent. Can anyone give me some advice? Maybe I have been too kind and patient?


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## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Everybody here is getting what they want, Long Creek will be no more. What else do you want, blood? Unfortunately, I don't have any of that to spare. Sorry.


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## ToddFiala

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I don't want blood, I just want my bees. I am just another customer caught up in a mess that I don't want to be in. What did the others do to get their bees?


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## ToddFiala

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Saturday afternoon I got an email from Long Creek indicating that my order has been shipped that day. I am looking foreward to filling the hives.


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## Francus

I really don't think people here were out for blood. Nor do I feel people were looking for Long Creek to fold. They just wanted bees, or answers, or a refund.

Even late bees would have gone down better if there was better communication. In situations like this I often wonder how many others are in a similar situation but don't talk about it or hit the forums to find out more. The only reason I did on this thread was I *****ed about not getting my bees on another thread and a private email suggested I check out besource.com. After that, I spoke up.

Again, I got my bees. Late, but not too late. The bees seem to be good quality and the queen is laying after a week and a half. But had my phone calls been answered or my emails answered more frequently, or better yet better news on the site, I probably wouldn't have bothered to comment. 

As it was, due to the lack of info I shelled out for a local hive. Which was extra money I wasn't planning on spending. But what the hey! I got them pronto and now I have two hives.

So, I guess what I am trying to say is that no one was gunning to put LC out of business. That happened because of the customer service all by yourself.


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## beemaster01

Francus;

You obviously haven't read the entire thread. If you do, you will change your mind.


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## ToddFiala

I had a phone call from the post office at 7 am to inform me that the bees are here. I was surprised that they arrived so soon, being shipped on Saturday. I put them in hives, but unfortunately, one package had a dead queen. Now for the hassle of insurance paperwork.

Todd


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## PhilB

David, 

You accepted my payment for 3, 3lb packages of Carniolan/Russian Hybrid bees in March of 2010 and you cashed my check for $311.10 the day you received it. You promised delivery in June 2010, July 2010 and May 2011 but still nothing. 
Like so many others, in spite of the repeated disappointments I have remained hopeful that by being patient, perhaps you would make good on your promise but your refusal to answer calls or reply to my e-mail or communicate your intentions is making it difficult to keep my cool. 

Your exact quote from March 16th was: "We are reserving the first 9 days of May to ship transfer orders such as yours. As your order is paid in full, there will be no extra charge. Thank you very much for your business."

I have sent dozens of polite e-mails reminding you of my order and including my address and yet, March 16th is the only correspondence I received in a year's time. I even called and sent copies to multiple known e-mail addresses for you, including the address used on March 16th so you had to be receiving them. What am I doing wrong? 

Phil B - Fish Creek WI 54212
(P.S. I live in a very small town - anything sent to Phil B in Fish Creek will get delivered to me.)


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## HuNu Farm

David,
I saw on your Long Creek Apiary website the message about queens from last week being "drone layers". Being new to beekeeping, I had to look up what that means! I can see through the observation window on my TBH that the Russians I received on July 7 have built at least two frames of comb. Should I be worried about my Russian queen being a drone layer, or did the early July shipments look okay? Thank you!


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## beemaster01

I hold queens to make sure that they are laying worker brood, especially this year since we have had such a bad year for bees. That is the reason I caught the bad queens before they were shipped. All the queens in packages and queen orders that I have shipped this year to date should be good. 

A queen that isn't laying by the time she is 16 days old will be a drone layer. A queen requires a nice sunny day with very little wind and temperatures above 72 degrees to mate. There is also a narrow time frame that a queen must mate or she will give up and not mate at all. For example, 5 days of rain or cool temperatures at the wrong time will prevent a queen from mating.

Verifying that a queen is fertile can delay shipments but a package with a drone-laying queen is a waste of your money. By the time you realize that there is something wrong, the package usually has dwindled down so much that even if you replace the queen, it might not survive. I have had these problems all year and eventually you just run out of time.


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## Grizbee

Hey David, Hows the hive sale going? Just wondered if you have $936.90 in the bank yet, still checkin' my mailbox for that refund every day


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## beemaster01

If you READ what the website says, sales start after August 1st. I am currently checking hives to make sure they are queenright with fertile queens. There has been very little response to date to the offer. If you look at the cost of a package, equipment, cost of feeding sugar and the labor involved, $175.00 is a very reasonable price. You could very easily have more than that invested at this point. If there is not a good response, especially with the environment in Washington to the current economy, I may be forced to stay in the business another year. I will just see how it all plays out.


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## HuNu Farm

I would LOVE to be able to take advantage of that deal, but just can't make the drive down there right now. Really - these bees are high quality. I'm amazed at how far my package of Russians have progressed, starting from bare bars, in my top bar hive since July 7. Especially since it has not rained here in over 3 weeks, and we've had 95+ degrees every day since they've arrived. I am feeding them sugar syrup in the hive and they have constant access to water nearby. We've ditched the suits, gloves, and veil already - these bees have shown no trace of aggression. David, thank you again! My 4 year old loves "his" bees and can't wait until they start making honey.


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## riverbee1

beemaster01 said:


> If you READ what the website says, sales start after August 1st. I am currently checking hives to make sure they are queenright with fertile queens. There has been very little response to date to the offer. If you look at the cost of a package, equipment, cost of feeding sugar and the labor involved, $175.00 is a very reasonable price. You could very easily have more than that invested at this point. If there is not a good response, especially with the environment in Washington to the current economy, I may be forced to stay in the business another year. I will just see how it all plays out.


 READ? 
:scratch:
We as customers shouldn’t have to read anything about more recycled beepoop with a bad case of nosema from you and your excuses.

You were selling hives last year to pay your debts, you were yammering last year about retiring and going out of business or filing bankruptcy.

The fact remains you owe me, and from reading this thread, many beeks MONEY or BEES. Emails and letters are ignored, questions aren’t answered, must be busy avoiding debts you owe. I for one full well know what the COST AND LOSS OF BUSINESS was doing with you by ordering 7 packages of bees for $750.00 from you from February 2010. Still waiting for my refund, I am not a bank to loan money from. 

Don’t insult me with telling me what the costs of sugar, antibiotics, time of preparing and labor, and switching my schedule around every time you said you would ship and didn’t for 3 months, not to mention what your other personal attacks have cost me because I have been vocal and outspoken about owing me a refund. You cost me honey, wax, income, customers, interest on a loan to my bank, attorneys fees, and a website you purchased in my company name. 

Little response to date for the sale of your hives? You have to ask yourself why. Didn’t get my refund last year when you were selling your hives and promised a refund, and I don’t expect it this year either. Doesn’t take a bee scientist to figure you out. All I want to know is where is my $750 refund from June 2010. When can I expect it? Just want my money back, plain and simple, no more beepoop.


----------



## beemaster01

Why would anyone encourage people not to purchase hives when the proceeds will pay what is owed to you? Doesn't seem too smart to me or anyone else that has any common sense at all. By the way, My bees don't have nosema, thank you.


----------



## riverbee1

thats what you said last year. doesn't seem smart to me that anyone with any common sense would purchase anything from you, and my common sense tells me i won't be paid again this year, just like last year. seems to me anyone with any business smarts wouldn't have to sell hives to pay beekeepers he has stiffed/ owed money to for two or three years.


----------



## waynesgarden

beemaster01 said:


> Why would anyone encourage people not to purchase hives when the proceeds will pay what is owed to you?


I would assume to prevent others from becoming victims too. I appreciate the warnings here and have steered clear of doing business with people that do not provide what they are selling and do not refund a purchaser's money. 

I've seen contractors in this same boat, paying off some of their losses from two jobs before with money from new jobs they managed to get by underbidding reputable builders, knowing they are never going to finish the new one or even break even.

I've also seen contractors whose business was going through hard times through no fault of their own and did the right thing by going out and getting wage-paying jobs and working their butts off to pay off their debts. When these folks went back into offering contracting services, they did so with their heads held high and their reputations intact. They could have held onto people's money for months or years, but they chose to do the right thing and were rewarded with new contracts.

This forum has done a great deal of good in exposing those that will not do the right thing and I'm thankful for that.

Wayne


----------



## spurdie

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> Everybody here is getting what they want, Long Creek will be no more. What else do you want, blood? Unfortunately, I don't have any of that to spare. Sorry.


we want our money back


----------



## spurdie

Im only 2 hours away from this [guy]. Anybody wanna take a road trip and get the bees that are owed to us? Or the money.


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## riverbee1

i’d take a road trip, i'd even drive to alabama and i have never been to alabama or tennessee. elpaso, wisconsin is about a 16 ½ hour drive away, but if I’m going to tennessee,_ i’m going to collect my money_……and from my personal experience with david winters, beemaster01, david winters doesn’t have my money, and considering all the excuses, threats and insults he has sent me for not refunding my money i think i’d just be doing a lot of sight seeing. 
best of luck to you on a road trip….


----------



## Barry

http://connect2utah.com/get-gephardt-story/?nxd_id=161147


----------



## camero7

This thread would make a great reality TV series.


----------



## riverbee1

thank you barry for the link on the story and video from utah news. still waiting on a refund for $740 from david winters from march 2010. my veil is off to this guy for getting the attention of a local reporter to do a story. just want my refund, that's all.


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## beemaster01

#8 beemaster01 2011-08-23 21:13
I give up. I am selling colonies to pay for refunds but that isn't enough. I will just liquidate, turn assets over to a trustee which will sell them for almost nothing and he will divide it up between you. Happy? Probably not but there is nothing that will make you happy. Bye


----------



## riverbee1

beemaster01 said:


> #8 beemaster01 2011-08-23 21:13
> I give up. I am selling colonies to pay for refunds but that isn't enough. I will just liquidate, turn assets over to a trustee which will sell them for almost nothing and he will divide it up between you. Happy? Probably not but there is nothing that will make you happy. Bye


 funny you say that about a trustee david. in December 2010, according to you, you said your attorney was holding funds in a trust fund for cancelled orders for all your customers that wanted refunds instead of bees, and that there was no question that those who wanted refunds would be paid when your divorce was settled. you reported here that your divorce was settled…. quote from you in this forum, post # 230, on may 29, 2011: 

“She walked away from it with a cash settlement which will take me three years to pay. She got the best end of the deal (women almost always do.)”

so I am wondering, what happened to the trust fund, your attorney a trustee, did with all the funds to pay back all of those who asked for refunds? cuz I sure didn’t get a check for $740 from that trust fund. *anyone else get a refund?*

i truly wish you well in the sale of your colonies. i just want my money back that I have been asking you now for over a year. where’s my refund from your trustee? the money I paid you and you put in your pocket. ALL OF IT. you don’t write, call or answer emails, except reply and whine here.


----------



## beemaster01

Long Creek is kaput, done, over. In a previous post you encouraged people to not buy colonies from me. So they haven't. Its a little late to change your mind now. Ex-wife took all funds in settlement plus a lot more over the next three years. .... Whatever funds received will be divided between all. After all assets are liquidated, the corporation will be dissolved. Final chapter close book.


----------



## riverbee1

beemaster01 said:


> Long Creek is kaput, done, over. In a previous post you encouraged people to not buy colonies from me. So they haven't. Its a little late to change your mind now. Ex-wife took all funds in settlement plus a lot more over the next three years. .... Whatever funds received will be divided between all. After all assets are liquidated, the corporation will be dissolved. Final chapter close book.


More drama.
i don’t control your business. you control your business. you have stiffed beekeepers all across the united states for bees and money. plain and simple. none of us will ever see anything from a ‘fund’…..or a bee…there are no assets, there are no funds, mmmm, cuz according to you, your ex-wife took it all. I don’t know what planet you are on. I don’t stiff my customers and then insult them because they ask for their money.


----------



## HuNu Farm

Bummer - the Russian queen I got turned out to be a drone layer, and solely from our own rookie inexperience, we did not figure it out in time - now our hive has dwindled to very few bees (mostly drones!) and it is too late/too few workers to try to requeen. Well, our first year keeping bees has definitely taught us a lot of valuable lessons, and we hope to have a better go of it next spring.


----------



## HuNu Farm

I do want to clarify for my post above - Mr. Winters does have a queen replacement policy, and has since indicated to me that he would have replaced the queen if my uncle and I would have figured it out in time and notified him.


----------



## beemaster01

I guess they should have been sent by certified mail since there will be no acknowledgement of money received...Just means smaller amount for everyone since that is obviously what they want. I've got a good idea - cancel payment on checks sent and resend them certified mail-you have 7 days to cash them.


----------



## krad1964

I paid for two packages this spring and have received nothing. I want my money back. Can I get my money back? What does one have to do to get their money back? This does not seem fair. I sent money for bees and no bees were sent to me. Just wondering when I am going to get my money back. If I get my money back, I will post to this forum. I promise. Can I get my money back now?


----------



## riverbee1

beemaster01 said:


> Fairness of the forum is in doubt when those who posted the most comments will not acknowledge receiving a payment from me. Just wondering...........


 Did I miss something here? must have, and I must have missed an email notification from you when you are sending me my refund that I have requested since june 2010??? Or maybe my attorney had a brain fart and didn’t tell me??? Fairness of the forum? NO REFUND, NO MONEY, NO PAYMENT, ZERO, ZIP, NADA and I have posted plenty in this forum. Like everyone else here, just want my money back, all $740 of it. when can I get it david? STILL WONDERING….


----------



## krad1964

Please send my money in the normal mail and I will post to the forum that I received a refund.


----------



## SurprisingWoman

A beek in Utah ordered two packages from LCA in May and never rec'd bees and could not get a refund. He went to the news guy that goes after deadbeats. The person at LCA responded to him saying they never talk with third parties. The news guy advised the beek to go to the Utah Commerce Dept and file a complaint. It is against the law to take payment for a shipment that is not made within 30 days and subjects you to a $1500 fine. LCA refunded the $266 to the beek and sent a letter about the "gestapo" state investigator. 

It was pretty funny.

I would contact your state commerce dept to see if they can do something for you.


----------



## beemaster01

Any company that produces live plant or animals can not comply with Utah law that mandates shipment within 30 days of when the order is placed. I paid the balance so I would have the legal right to inform all queen and package producers of the agriculture unfriendly Utah statues. Thanks to posters here and on the web site of the TV station in Utah this valuable information can be passed on to all bee companies.

I find it very interesting that the payment hasn't been posted on the TV station website. Could it be biased as this forum is? No, it couldn't be as everything you read on the internet is fair and balanced. Ha, what a joke.


----------



## SurprisingWoman

You didn't make a payment, you refunded the man's money after holding onto it for over three months.

The payment is listed on the website. Read the article again, or have someone read it to you.

I am delighted Utah has a statue to protect consumers from bad business practices of deadbeat companies. I hope other states do as well.

http://connect2utah.com/get-gephardt-story/?nxd_id=164467


----------



## beemaster01

The original article hasn't been changed. For your 411, the refund was in two payments. I had made a partial payment before being contacted. Also, if all states laws were the same as Utah's, then there would be no bees available as no bee company takes orders and ships within 30 days as it is physically impossible. Maybe bee companies shouldn't take orders from states that have statues like Utah's.

http://connect2utah.com/get-gephardt-story?nxd_id=161147


----------



## Desert Viking Ranch

beemaster01 said:


> Any company that produces live plant or animals can not comply with Utah law that mandates shipment within 30 days of when the order is placed.


Incorrect. The law states you must _SHIP_ the product within 30 days (not that it is to be received) after _PAYMENT_ is taken - NOT the order being placed.

Your argument is invalid as it is entirely possible to take orders in advance and take payment only when the product is ready to be shipped.


----------



## riverbee1

SurprisingWoman said:


> You didn't make a payment, you refunded the man's money after holding onto it for over three months.
> 
> The payment is listed on the website. Read the article again, or have someone read it to you.
> 
> I am delighted Utah has a statue to protect consumers from bad business practices of deadbeat companies. I hope other states do as well.
> 
> http://connect2utah.com/get-gephardt-story/?nxd_id=164467


 every states laws are different, and Utah’s are excellent. it is worth checking with your states consumer protection division, and filing a complaint as he did. your state may have similar remedies as utah’s does. tennessee does not have a refund or delivery policy I can find as Utah does, but has other applicable Tennessee Consumer Protection Laws (you can find them on www.tenn.gov, and go to codes). 

TENNESSEE CODE ANNOTATED
© 2011 by The State of Tennessee
*Title 39 Criminal Offenses 
Chapter 14 Offenses Against Property 
Part 1 Theft*

*39-14-127. Deceptive business practices. *
*(a) A person commits an offense who, with intent to deceive, in the course of business:*

_*(2) Sells, offers or exposes for sale, or delivers less than the represented quantity of any commodity or service;
*_
*(5)* Makes a false or misleading statement in any advertisements addressed to the public or to a substantial segment thereof for the purposes of promoting the purchase or sale of property or services;

*(c)* Deceptive business practices is a Class B misdemeanor.

*Title 47 Commercial Instruments And Transactions 
Chapter 18 Consumer Protection 
Part 1 Consumer Protection Act of 1977*
*47-18-104. Unfair or deceptive acts prohibited. *

*(a)* Unfair or deceptive acts or practices affecting the conduct of any trade or commerce constitute unlawful acts or practices and are Class B misdemeanors.

*(b)* The following unfair or deceptive acts or practices affecting the conduct of any trade or commerce are declared to be unlawful and in violation of this part:

*(2)* Causing likelihood of confusion or of misunderstanding as to the source, sponsorship, approval or certification of goods or services. This subdivision (b)(2) does not prohibit the private labeling of goods and services;


*(3)* Causing likelihood of confusion or misunderstanding as to affiliation, connection or association with, or certification by, another. This subdivision (b)(3) does not prohibit the private labeling of goods or services;

*(9) Advertising goods or services with intent not to sell them as advertised;*

*(10) Advertising goods or services with intent not to supply reasonably expectable public demand, unless the advertisement discloses a limitation of quantity;
*
*(17)* Advertising of any sale by falsely representing that a person is going out of business;

*(22)* Using any advertisement containing an offer to sell goods or services when the offer is not a bona fide effort to sell the advertised goods or services. An offer is not bona fide, even though the true facts are subsequently made known to the buyer, if the first contact or interview is secured by deception;

_*(27) Engaging in any other act or practice which is deceptive to the consumer or to any other person; provided, however, that enforcement of this subdivision (b)(27) is vested exclusively in the office of the attorney general and reporter and the director of the division;
*_
*(29)* Advertising that a business is "going out of business" more than ninety (90) days before such business ceases to operate;

*47-18-108. Restraining orders or injunctions -- Penalty for violation.*

*(a)* *(1)* Whenever the division has reason to believe that any person has engaged in, is engaging in, or, based upon information received from another law enforcement agency, is about to engage in any act or practice declared unlawful by this part and that proceedings would be in the public interest, the attorney general and reporter, at the request of the division, may bring an action in the name of the state against such person to restrain by temporary restraining order, temporary injunction, or permanent injunction the use of such act or practice.

*(b)* *(1)* The court may make such orders or render such judgments as may be necessary to restore to any person who has suffered any ascertainable loss by reason of the use or employment of such unlawful method, act, or practice, any money or property, real, personal, or mixed, or any other article, commodity, or thing of value wherever situated, which may have been acquired by means of any act or practice declared to be unlawful by this part.

*(2)* The court may also enter an order temporarily or permanently revoking a license or certificate authorizing that person to engage in business in this state, if evidence has been presented to the court establishing knowing and persistent violations of this part.

*(3) The court may also order payment to the state of a civil penalty of not more of than one thousand dollars ($1,000) for each violation.
*
*(4)* The court may also order reimbursement to the state for the reasonable costs and expenses of investigation and prosecution of actions under this part, including attorneys' fees. 

*c)* Any knowing violation of the terms of an injunction or order issued pursuant to subsection (a) or (b) shall be punishable by a *civil penalty of not more than two thousand dollars ($2,000), recoverable by the state for each violation, in addition to any other appropriate relief.*

*47-18-109. Private right of action -- Damages -- Notice to division. *

*(a)* *(1)* Any person who suffers an ascertainable loss of money or property, real, personal, or mixed, or any other article, commodity, or thing of value wherever situated, as a result of the use or employment by another person of an *unfair or deceptive act or practice described in § 47-18-104(b) and declared to be unlawful by this part, may bring an action individually to recover actual damages.*

*(3)* If the court finds that the use or employment of the unfair or deceptive act or practice *was a willful or knowing violation of this part,* the court may award three (3) times the actual damages sustained and may provide such other relief as it considers necessary and proper, except that the court may not award exemplary or punitive damages for the same unfair or deceptive practice.

*(4)* In determining whether treble damages should be awarded, the trial court may consider, among other things:

*(A)* The competence of the consumer or other person;

*(B)* *The nature of the deception* or coercion practiced upon the consumer or other person;

*(C)* *The damage to the consumer *or other person; and

*(D)* _*The good faith of the person*_ _*found to have violated the provisions of this part*
_
.* 47-18-114. Powers of attorney general. *

The attorney general and reporter, at the request of the division, may bring any appropriate action or proceeding in any court of competent jurisdiction pursuant to the provisions of this part.


----------



## riverbee1

as paul harvey would say, “and here is the rest of the story!” an update from Utah:

Get Gephardt: How to Fight when the Product you Order Never Arrives 

(a portion of the article)
_“Winters mailed a letter to Jacob saying, "I recently had a long 'discussion' with your state 'Gestapo' investigator."
And with that letter came a check for Jacob's complete refund. 

And, of course, nothing about these state investigators is Gestapo-like. I'm told the investigator simply pointed out that when a company doesn't ship a product within 30 days, the state of Utah has the power to fine the company $1500. That's a lot more than just refunding Jacob's $266, which he clearly deserved back.”
_
*David Winters comment to this article:* (copied and pasted in full)

beemaster01 Thursday, 22 September 2011 

_"No company that ships honeybees can comply with Utah law as it is physically impossible. By the time a bee breeder can ship to Utah and comply with the law, there will be no more bees available. The reason is beekeepers from everywhere else that order months in advance will have take all available bees before the shipping season starts. Another danger is that even though a beekeeper got his bees, the shipper can still be fined because it took longer than 30 days to receive the bees. Ntat is not a very bee friendly situation."
_
my question is, what law in _any state_ has david winters of long creek apiaries complied with when there are beeks waiting for refunds and bees not shipped for 2 or 3 years?:scratch:
in my experience, let’s not get into the reasons, list is too long,:lookout:……danger zone k:


----------



## beemaster01

riverbee1 said:


> ............ I'm told the investigator simply pointed out that when a company doesn't ship a product within 30 days, the state of Utah has the power to fine the company $1500.


Isn't that almost word for word what I posted earlier? To avoid be repetitious and get deleted or warned, refer to earlier posting about how the bee supply industry works.


----------



## riverbee1

riverbee1 said:


> as paul harvey would say, “and here is the rest of the story!” an update from Utah:
> 
> "Get Gephardt: How to Fight when the Product you Order Never Arrives
> my question is, what law in _any state_ has david winters of long creek apiaries complied with when there are beeks waiting for refunds and bees not shipped for 2 or 3 years?":scratch:
> 
> again, what law in _any state_ has david winters of long creek apiaries complied with when there are beeks _waiting for refunds and bees not shipped for 2 or 3 years?_


----------



## riverbee1

Might get even more views and dissertations, if beeks knew they might receive a snarly email when beemaster winters sends a ‘partial payment’ to the wrong address because he doesn’t keep good records, and 1-threaten to charge the beek he took money from, for the stop payment of the alleged 10% he sent to the wrong address and also 2-threaten to charge the beek he took money from, for the cost of sending an alleged ‘partial payment’ to the correct address by certified mail. :scratch:


----------



## beemaster01

If it is a "wrong address", how could you possibly have received your bees there. Why is your "real address" in MN and your address state listed here and all you web pages listed in WI? The mail has not been returned as undeliverable by the post office. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.


----------



## krad1964

As promised, I am posting to say I received a partial refund for the two packages that I ordered this spring but did not receive.

I will post again when I receive the next nine payments.


----------



## beemaster01

SurprisingWoman said:


> .......... LCA refunded the $266 to the beek and sent a letter about the "gestapo" state investigator.......


Bankruptcy law provides that anyone paid in excess of what others in the class receive within 90 days of filing, will be required to pay back to the trustee the excess amount for fair distribution to others. Also lawsuits and other means of collection will be halted upon filing. So you might want to think about it before spend the money to file a lawsuit or hire a lawyer as they will be automatically dismissed. The payment you mentioned falls in that excess payment classification.


----------



## riverbee1

beemaster01 said:


> Bankruptcy law provides that anyone paid in excess of what others in the class receive within 90 days of filing, will be required to pay back to the trustee the excess amount for fair distribution to others. Also lawsuits and other means of collection will be halted upon filing. So you might want to think about it before spend the money to file a lawsuit or hire a lawyer as they will be automatically dismissed. The payment you mentioned falls in that excess payment classification.


_United States Bankruptcy Law does not protect* fraudulent debt.*_


----------



## Jeffzhear

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I got a strange email out of the clear blue from someone claiming to be Barry Carter this morning. dated 10/01/2010, which starts out like this " Because David Winters at Long Creek Apiaries owes me for 7 hives or the money he was paid since 2009, I won’t deal with anyone for anything in Tennessee."...

A few thoughts;

First I came here to see if Long Creek Apiaries" was being discussed and sure enough...I found this thread. 

Second, if Barry Carter's intent was to add more pressure by sending an email to all/select Tennessee beekeepers, he might have just done that. 

Third, did he get the listing of Tennessee beekeepers from this site or a general search....I can only wonder.

Lastly, I don't think it is right to heap the alleged misdeeds of one individual on others who had no direct or indirect involvement, but in a free market economy Barry Carter can do what he pleases with his money. In any event, I wish him the best and hope he finds a satisfactory resolution.


----------



## beemaster01

riverbee1 said:


> _United States Bankruptcy Law does not protect* fraudulent debt.*_


Creditors ALWAYS say that in bankruptcy cases.


----------



## Rodeo

piperspuppy said:


> Just wondering if anyone out there has dealt with Long Creek Apiaries in Parrotsville, TN. I'm having a really bad experience with them. He cashed my check and never sent the package bees. Besides the BBB of Eastern TN, what would be my best avenue to get my money back?


Stay away from Long Creek Apiaries. David Winters will take your money and give you nothing but greif.


----------



## Rodeo

I paid for eight three pound packages of Russian bees in 2008 and have still not received anything but a bunch of BS. David Winters will cash your check and deliver nothing but empty promises. The sooner he goes out of busniss the better. All I can say is stay away.


----------



## Rodeo

If anyone has any idea how to take actual legal action against LCA that won't cost an arm and a leg, please let me know. I'm from Missouri and so far the only recourse has been the BBB, who can't do anything and the Department of Commerce and Insurance through the Tennessee Division of Consumer Affairs who can't force Winters to do the right thing. I am super frustrated and really angery about this. He owes me over $700.00.


----------



## Rodeo

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> To all 1000+ readers of this thread: Please count the the number of different people on this thread that are complaining. *FIVE!* That is *FIVE* out of hundreds of satisfied customers. It is sad that *FIVE* people can have such influence with only one side of the story. There are others on the tread offering advice based on one side of the story. I have no complaints with them. Such is the double edge of the internet.
> 
> We took orders based on our projected capability determined by normal weather. We went from an extreme drought to a surplus in just a few months. Our quality standards demand that we determine that all bees that we ship are the best on the market. I am sorry that some of you feel that bees should be shipped on time irregardless of quality. They did exactly what you wanted them to do, then you bad mouth the company when the stock is bad! We will not intentionally ship bad stock. Period! All our policies are spelled out on our website address that is listed in our ads. Read it!
> 
> All I ask is that you have both sides of the story before you make a decision about a company. I do not feel that is unreasonable.


There would be no problem if the money that was paid in good faith for merchandise that was never delivered were returned.


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Forgot to mention that you have received partial payment. Ya becha! Also, of 81 different posters, 6 posters have accounted for over 38% of the posts.


----------



## riverbee1

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



beemaster01 said:


> Forgot to mention that you have received partial payment. Ya becha! Also, of 81 different posters, 6 posters have accounted for over 38% of the posts.


 _Serious?_ 
*you owe a beek $700 plus from* *2008 *and all you can say or yammer about is_ *BETCHA?*_ 10% of a payment you might have sent? $70 minimum of the $700 plus owed from _*2008*_, _what is wrong with this picture and what planet are you on?_ money the beek paid you and you stole from, just like the rest of us, and you couch it in threats of going out of business or bankruptcy or whatever of the excuses you have given each one of us for your personal problems and then some? not to mention all your bark of intimidation……_Serious_…._*
betcha*_ you won’t post here how many beeks you owe money to and 
_*betcha*_ you won’t tell how much money you owe from those you have stolen from to keep yourself afloat. 
_*betcha*_ you won’t say how many *‘partial payments’* you have sent out. _( i didn't send you a partial payment for the 7 packages i paid for and never received). _seems to me after Utah got on your butt, you decided maybe you should make some ‘good effort’ to pay back what you have stolen, in case some state, or the federal government, decides to take a look at your upstanding business practices. looking forward to another pleasant email from you....


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

You and the other top 5 posters helped push Long Creek into bankruptcy which is what you wanted so why the complaints?


----------



## Thermwood

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

They pushed you into bankruptcy by paying you for bees you never delivered?


----------



## Rodeo

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

You are right. I did forget to mention the partial refund. You cashed my check in December of 2008 and delivered nothing but empty promises, then I received a partial repayment check for 10% of the amount I sent you in good faith in September 2011. With business practices like that how could you expect to stay in business. Besides with soooooooo many satisfied customers you should have absolutely no trouble paying back the money you wrongl took.


----------



## dragonfly

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Come on guys- stop with the personal attacks. 

If you have had a personal experience, good or bad, with a company being discussed, this is the forum to report it. If you are jumping on the bandwagon just to make accusations and insult others, then keep it where it belongs- to yourself.


----------



## Rodeo

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

What have you lost Dragonfly? I have lost over $700.00


----------



## Rodeo

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

This is my final posting. I have lost money but more importantly, I have lost all confidence in doing any further business via the internet or mail concerning bee packages or queens.


----------



## dragonfly

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



Rodeo said:


> What have you lost Dragonfly? I have lost over $700.00


I understand that. Have you posted that information?


----------



## riverbee1

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



dragonfly said:


> I understand that. Have you posted that information?


dragonfly, rodeo did post the info;

rodeo's posts 318, 319 and 320:

"I paid for eight three pound packages of Russian bees in 2008 and have still not received anything but a bunch of BS. David Winters will cash your check and deliver nothing but empty promises. The sooner he goes out of busniss the better. All I can say is stay away." 

"If anyone has any idea how to take actual legal action against LCA that won't cost an arm and a leg, please let me know. I'm from Missouri and so far the only recourse has been the BBB, who can't do anything and the Department of Commerce and Insurance through the Tennessee Division of Consumer Affairs who can't force Winters to do the right thing. I am super frustrated and really angery about this. He owes me over $700.00."

"There would be no problem if the money that was paid in good faith for merchandise that was never delivered were returned."


----------



## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

There is no reason for me to post to this thread as they will just get deleted. Like this one will.


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## krad1964

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I ordered two packages this spring and have received the standard 10% refund, so don't delete my post.

After following this thread for a while (too late), there are a couple of thoughts I would like to share.

1. Man, was I stupid for sending a check for the full amount to LCA. Should have seen the warning signs. No credit card processing, needing full amount. Taught me the lesson of doing research before sending money. I'm old enough that I should have known better.

2. I understand some of the problems that LCA has experienced are uncontrollable and unpredictable. Farming is like that. What is different in this case, it seems, is that LCA "customers" were actually "investors", risking their capital with a payoff of bees. Most farmers do not require their customers to share the capital risk of raising the product, maybe bees are different, but I suspect not.

3. Complaints from LCA that this forum is forcing him in to bankruptcy may be true, but the experience of LCA's "investors" and their poor return is fact. "Investors" sharing that fact with potential other "investors" is part of the free market system. Turning "investors" back into "customers" seems to be the only way out but probably too late. I have seem numerous post from customers who have received bees and were happy with the product.

4. This spring I ordered two nucs from a local commercial producer who also experienced weather issues and then queen quality issues. I was sent three emails a week before each projected delivery date informing me and others of the situation. On the third email, the company offered a full refund of my DEPOSIT which I requested and promptly received. Totally opposite experience compared to LCA. I will be ordering from them next year.

5. This thread probably ought to be closed to new comments soon. Time to move on and plan for next year.


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## Fusion_power

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

A business does not go bankrupt because of a forum thread. Bankruptcy can be a result of factors beyond the business' control such as weather, market dynamics, etc. But the most common cause is failure to tend to business. If long creek apiaries is indeed going down the tubes, then the problem resides at long creek apiaries, not with this forum and certainly not with the very real purchasers who have been stiffed.

DarJones


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## HONEYDEW

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



Fusion_power said:


> A business does not go bankrupt because of a forum thread.


 I'm not picking sides because I don't know this man or his burdens, But I think the INTERNET has much more power than you think.....heard of the Arab spring (INTERNET helped it be successful)


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## Fusion_power

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

My point Honeydew is that if the business had been run as a business, then there never would have been a forum thread.

DarJones


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## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



HONEYDEW said:


> I'm not picking sides because I don't know this man or his burdens, But I think the INTERNET has much more power than you think.....heard of the Arab spring (INTERNET helped it be successful)


A person could get together with five or six of his friends, register with various names on beesource and start a thread on beesource. Twenty or thirty bystanders would jump in with their comments multiple times, register complaints with the BBB (it takes only three to get a bad rating), and with links to the business tied to that thread all over the internet, that business is toast. Far fetched? Not at all if you add entire blogs devoted to the subject repeating everything over and over and links all over the web to these pages. Unfortunately, if there is many pages and many comments from different people, the uninformed reader KNOWS it is ALL TRUE.


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## Daniel Y

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

I find it a bit surprising that the news is not getting spread even faster. Evidence right there alone that the internet is not that powerful of a tool. People are still placing orders with you.


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## beemaster01

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



Daniel Y said:


> I find it a bit surprising that the news is not getting spread even faster. Evidence right there alone that the internet is not that powerful of a tool. People are still placing orders with you.


Another bystander with a comment to support what I said. We have never accepted orders this early. All reader need to do is look at the webpage.


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## StevenG

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

But you took orders this past spring, without filling previous orders or refunding money.


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## Grizbee

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

Maybe it is time to awaken this post and David Winters on this cold winter morning, as I plan and budget for the coming beekeeping season. David, do you really anticipate sending a full refund, to all of us who you owe refunds to, as you have stated over and over again? there is nothing like receiving a late christmas gift that you have wished for, for years on end,I'm still checking my mailbox every day for that postmark from Parrotsville, Tenn.


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## beemaster01

I plan to pay everyone back. I have decided to go one more year and take all profits and apply to those I owe and then go from there. Otherwise somewhere between 15-20% of the owed will be paid. Everyone wins.


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## Lauren

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

It seems that Long Creek is doing well after all. I typed in a search for Russian Package Bees and found that he is taking orders for 2012. I hope that means it all got sorted out with refunds and bee deliveries.......


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## krad1964

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

How does one know if they will be getting a full refund or the packages that they ordered?


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## StevenG

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*

You don't know. and the odds are, based on past history, you should just kiss your money good bye. And if anyone orders bees from them, well, I have a bridge here in Butler County, MO, I'd like to sell you.
Regards,
Steven


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## beemaster01

Sounds like the tone here is that I should quit, liquidate, and distribute whatever money there is. In that case you can expect 15-20% of what is owed to you. Otherwise, stay viable one year and and everyone gets paid everything assuming this thread doesn't prevent enough business to pay 100%. Hey lets have a survey! Option 1 as stated above which is quit, etc. or Option 2 stay viable etc.


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## dragonfly

I would say that there is plenty of discussion in this thread for potential buyers to beware. If you want to take the chance with your money, then do so. If you do take your chance, and wind up a loser in the deal, then there's not much room for complaining. 
Please keep the thread focused on actual experience, and not on speculation and foretelling the future. This adds nothing constructive to the discussion.


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## thomas

I have gotten bees from them before and the bees came when they said i also have talked to Mr. Winters and he seems to be a real nice guy. I also sent a pm and was told if i have any doubt then do not order so i made up my mind and i am going to get some queens from him. I never had a problem with them before and he always answer my questions somtimes thing's happen out of our control and from reading the posts he said he was going to give back the refunds at least he is not like rory of Busy bee you never get a answer i say give this man a chance what does it hurt. 

Thomas Yancey


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## Daniel Y

I se this as an issue of lifestyle and self control. If you could not make taking money = sending product in the past. What is supposed to have happened that you will be able to do it now? You have not been able to keep your end for what? two years now. and now you will be able to produce three years worth of bees in one season??? Did you get new management or something? expand to more than three times the size you where? What colossal change in your life happened that makes you think this will happen? Otherwise this is just the next chapter in a story that keeps convincing people to send you their money. I can't believe you are allowed to post on this group. You can't make a personal attack on someone but rip them off, that is fine.


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## wolfpenfarm

Simple solution for longcreek, post a list of all the refunds of users on here. that would go a lonnnnng way to show he is doing what he says he is doing.

Anyone can get in trouble using funds as they come in. To do so takes some self control and disclipine. I build complete hives and require people to pay up front for foundation and frames so i can order them. I build the hive whle the supplies come to me and then ask for balance when i complete hive. Then i use the profit to fund the other hives i am working on. But i never use money that is not from a completed hive.

You can't use the money in bees and queens until your harvest is complete. You can't possibly know how many your going to get to fill your orders. So the only safe way is to escrow the deposits. That way your never caught with your titty in the wringer. 

To longcreek, cudos to you if you are working towards returning the money. If you succeed at that, then build a track record with it. It really needs to be done even if you call it quits, and im not talking 15 -25%. This is completely different than investors investing in your company and taking a loss.


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## matt1954

I would like to know why everyone has allowed him to get away with this for so long? Does he only do business with people out of state so they wont come to his home state to prosecute him? Why are you not getting in touch with his local police to file criminal charges? If enough of you do it, someone at the local police will take notice and investigate. It wont take that long. If he did it here in Virginia, he woud be in prison. This appears to be nothing more than a Ponzi scheme where he is taking from one to give to another. (allegedly) You all are way too kind.


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## riverbee1

matt1954 said:


> I would like to know why everyone has allowed him to get away with this for so long? Does he only do business with people out of state so they wont come to his home state to prosecute him? Why are you not getting in touch with his local police to file criminal charges? If enough of you do it, someone at the local police will take notice and investigate. It wont take that long. If he did it here in Virginia, he woud be in prison. *This appears to be nothing more than a Ponzi scheme where he is taking from one to give to another.* (allegedly) You all are way too kind.


all very good points, if any of you who just recently jumped into this thread, may i suggest reading the prior 350 some odd posts that describe what some of us who have been stiffed have done, to no avail......so we are not repeating.....repeating.....repeating ourselves, and the replys and excuses repeated, repeated, repeated by mr. winters. the state of tennessee, from my experience and in my opinion doesn't give one wit, (the state of utah does). the diplomatic alternative is spend more money to file a civil suit, which i might point out, will cost you more money and you will collect nothing according to mr. winters financial state.

i am still waiting for a refund of some $700 from 3 years ago.....and i will never see it. the message and lesson to be learned here is BUYER BEWARE, and choose carefully who you purchase your bees or your queens from. i might add, that the money that i am still owed.....mr. winters has never emailed or written me, or my attorney to explain how and when, i might be paid back, other than to blame and insult me for asking for my refund. if there are those of you that have had a good experience, great, but there is a large majority that has not. you make the decision for yourselves. this is only my experience and my opinion.


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## matt1954

Perhaps the state of TN doesnt give a hoot, but the Federal Authorities will. I am retired federal and given the volume of posts, his misconduct must be above $50,000.00 which is the threshold. He is using the internet, mail, taking checks and credit cards, that is mail and wire fraud all federal crimes. What we need is one person to put this collectively together and take it to a United States Attorney. I know who to take this to so here is what I am willing to do. If you have paid and not received your money or your products, send me your name, dollar amount, email and phone number, and I will put a spreadsheet together. If we can get over the 50k, I will forward it to the appropriate federal authorities. Here is my email address: [email protected] Put Long Creek in the subject line. If 350 people post with a majority of them having negative views, coupled with an F rating at the BBB, then this is not someone down on his luck, this is done with malice and he should be stopped because his predatory ways on new and unsuspecting beekeepers will cause the rest of us trying hard to do it right to pay a hefty price. Lord knows this work is tough enough without wondering whether you are going to receive what you paid for. 

Jerry Mattiaccio


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## beemaster01

Long Creek Apiaries, INC is closed for business. Go ahead, pat yourselves on the back, you deserve it. Maybe you will delete this post also.


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## wolfpenfarm

beemaster01 said:


> Long Creek Apiaries, INC is closed for business. Go ahead, pat yourselves on the back, you deserve it. Maybe you will delete this post also.



Thats a no brainer since you are actively selling from http://caucasianbreeder.com/ Aka Winters apiaries.


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## beemaster01

wolfpenfarm said:


> Thats a no brainer since you are actively selling from http://caucasianbreeder.com/ Aka Winters apiaries.


That website just hasn't been updated yet. I just updated the Long Creek site and that one is next. Anyone can call or email if they want but it won't do any good. You got what you wanted so go ahead and gloat.


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## Rodeo

I'm not gloating. Just discusted with your deceptive business practices and the lack of support from local and state government consumer protection agincies and the fact that you were able to stay in business for so long and bilk so many people out of their hard earned cash.


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## Rodeo

My hat is off to you beemaster01. You have proven to me that true justice is only afforded to the truley wealthy (the ones who can pay for justice). My dealings with you and the legal machine has proven that crime does pay. You get to walk away with all the money and nobody can do a thing about it, unless they can afford an aturney at $100.00 + dollars an hour. If I didn't want to sleep at night, I'd advertise on the internet, collect peoples money and provide nothing in return.


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## Oldtimer

What's happening to all the people who have placed orders over the last few months and not been filled yet?


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## Rodeo

I hate to say it but you probably get to stand in line with the rest of us suckers


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## beemaster01

Oldtimer said:


> What's happening to all the people who have placed orders over the last few months and not been filled yet?


You mean all the fake orders? Calls and emails then never hear from again?


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## Oldtimer

No I meant the real orders. You know, people you took money from.


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## Barry

Like the $740.00 from riverbee1.


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## beemaster01

Barry said:


> Like the $740.00 from riverbee1.


Keep on posting. Fabulous.


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## Oldtimer

Kinda doesn't really answer the questions, does it. 

Also, you claimed quite some time ago to be closing the business down, but then didn't and kept taking peoples money. Now, it's delivery time, oh, you're closing the business down again.

Good little racket.


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## Grizbee

beemaster01 said:


> I plan to pay everyone back. I have decided to go one more year and take all profits and apply to those I owe and then go from there. Otherwise somewhere between 15-20% of the owed will be paid. Everyone wins.


What happened to this business plan,I thought with the perfect and early warm spring weather, you would have good strong bees to work and use to repay the real orders, that were prepaid and never refunded, for 3 years of patient waiting on my part. lots of excuses and no action. The one thing that has puzzled me is your constant blaming of everyone else for your problems, instead of stepping up to the plate and proving that you are a man of your word. this forum did'nt put you out of business, your inaction to take care of paying customers did.


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## beemaster01

If you had visited my web page, this post would be unnecessary. However I will repeat it here for everyone. I lost all but 8 colonies due to genetically modified soybeans and corn in my area. Colonies that I sold are doing well and everyone is happy with them. A beekeeper neighbor lost all his bees as well. From what I can find out, all colonies outside the flying range of these crops have not been affected. The big chemical companies have so much money that they can buy their way out of any liability.

Yes you are correct that it has been an almost perfect spring and had the bees not all died, then this would have been resolved. The bad news is that this problem is only going to get worse. At least Europe is smart enough to outlaw GMO crops.


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## krad1964

I call BS on the cause to GMO soybeans and corn.


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## riverbee1

beemaster01 said:


> That website just hasn't been updated yet. I just updated the Long Creek site and that one is next. Anyone can call or email if they want but it won't do any good. You got what you wanted so go ahead and gloat.


call or email?! very funny.
ditto on the gmo soybeans and corn, wish there was a 'violin smiley' i could insert here.
this is just another excuse of your long list of excuses to add to the pile

how many folks did you take money from this spring? let me guess, the gmo killed off your bees before you delivered any queens or bees, but.....you have their money and can't pay them back?
i suspect that we will start hearing from them soon enough.


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## riverbee1

beemaster01 said:


> You mean all the fake orders? Calls and emails then never hear from again?





Oldtimer said:


> What's happening to all the people who have placed orders over the last few months and not been filled yet?





Rodeo said:


> My hat is off to you beemaster01. You have proven to me that true justice is only afforded to the truley wealthy (the ones who can pay for justice). My dealings with you and the legal machine has proven that crime does pay. You get to walk away with all the money and nobody can do a thing about it, unless they can afford an aturney at $100.00 + dollars an hour. If I didn't want to sleep at night, I'd advertise on the internet, collect peoples money and provide nothing in return.


$100? try $175 and $275 an hour....inch:

BTW, hmmmm on the fake orders by phone and email you never heard back from, maybe the 'powers that be' are starting to pay attention to your less than honest business practices. someone's 'fishing' around. if i were you i might be concerned about the men in black suits with badges showing up on my doorstep.

just a reminder, $740.


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## Barry

*Re: Dealings with Long Creek Apiary*



wolfpenfarm said:


> I can tell you one thing, it is far better to give a product away, than to recieve the negative comments from said customer. The damage is far worse by not making that customer happy. This is true in bee keeping as well as IT industry, farming, and every other business on the planet.


This week I received the spray gun I had ordered from Eastwood, and set about cleaning it before use, according to the instructions that came with it. One of the final steps was to remove the nozzle to clean the needle. With all my might, even having the gun in a vise and using a hammer on the wrench, I could not get the nozzle to budge. I called them up next day and explained the problem. Customer service apologized and said a new one is on its way and that I didn't need to return the first gun.

This problem had all the potential of making me an unhappy one time customer, but by not making me go through the hoops of having to return the damaged product I received, they gained a repeat happy customer.


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