# Russian Bees - TF Miracle? Hype? Sales Pitch? A Need for Transparency



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> So over the course of a few months, I'll drop in now and then and update the thread. You are welcome to do the same. I really like these bees, but if this was built on sand, I will not help prop it. I need a clear look and I welcome a fresh set of eyes now and then.


Joe:

Let me be the first to respond to your thread and say that I am looking forward to your posts. 

While I've never worked with the Primorsky bee, I have read a bit about them- I've attached a few references to support your effort to characterize and document their traits and performance.

Do keep us posted on what you learn!






Primorsky Russian Bees


A description of what the Primorsky Russian Bee is and management tips



www.russianbee.com












Mechanisms Of Resistance


A complimentary combination of various resistance mechanisms and behavioral strategies give Russian honey bees their strong resistance to varroa mites and their great resilience and wintering...



www.russianbreeder.org


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Feedback from Daniel Conlon, President of RHBA:

Q. Based on your experience with the current lines, is it safe to say that the lines on the whole exhibit wide trait variability, particularly as regards resistance?

A. _The simple answer is that the original breeding lines were studied in Phase I, when the bee lab and beekeepers selected the best stock from 360 potential lines. This was boiled down to 42 breeding lines, and eventually 17 lines represented today. They have the most diverse genetics currently tracked in U.S. breeding stock. This makes our program unique in the world: bee lab testing and field data combined to select a better honeybee.

Our program is a selection program that continues to select for the most mite tolerant, disease resistant and best honey producing bees. RHBA is Phase II where we continue the selection process as a private association. The bee lab continues to be one of our members and continues to monitor our progress.

There is no easy answer to any attempts to improve honeybees. It takes time, expertise, and sometimes a bit of luck to make incremental advancements._

Q. At the risk of greatly oversimplifying things, is it safe to say that while the genetically-isolated lines maintain a high degree of genetic diversity, they on the main exhibit a fair degree of consistency in regards to phenotype expression, particularly as regards resistance? Said another way, if I bought a mated queen (or 20) from a Russian Queen Bee Breeder Association member, should there be an expectation that the resultant colony will express relatively consistent 'to-type' resistance and colony-level traits as outlined in the Breeder's Association guides?

A. _It sounds like you are asking about what happens when we get outside our closed-mating program. Without having a fairly high and consistent number of drones, also meeting our standards, predictable traits can dilute quickly. We struggle with the non-members selling Russian bees as they are producing hybrids and that do not always represent the traits we are seeing in our program. Genetically we have been successful in amplifying some of our original behavioral objectives, fixing them to future generations is still a one step forward - two steps back proposition. What I can say is that my bees survive New England winters, I regularly skip mite treatments, and they do produce honey. A far better management outcome then before I used Russian bees. The RHBA mission is to improve the stock, and preserve the genetics. This is one reason we do not aggressively promote selling Russian bees. Most of our members are focused on the breeding, not the business. I think that will happen once we are all satisfied with our progress, which is meeting the Phase II goals. The question of hybridization was tested by Lilia DeGuzman at the Baton Rouge Bee Lab. There is a published summary of the comparisons she did with commercially offered Russians and the RHBA stock. Pretty much found that hybrids varied greatly and the RHBA stock was the best at mite tolerance. _


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Thanks Russ,

I can always count on your great memory and organizational skills.

I read a great deal on the Primorski before ordering any, but it was my initial experiences that prompted me to go "all in". More accurately, the round of Italians I was running was in their 2nd spring/summer, and the queens were perishing. Actually one very unremarkable colony swarmed, but others were having problems. I was getting my feet wet increasing numbers by harvesting virgin queens before they had time to kill each other, and this was allowing some increase.

So I would have a sickly (or sparse, ,,, same thing in July) hive, and I would drop a nuc (with a queen of Russian descent) right in the middle of the brood box. By year's end I had one Italian queen. She was the daughter of a queen I liked, so I took her from the EZ Nuc box into a poly nuc in fall and she lasted until March-April. She left some QCs behind, but it was very early when they emerged and no queen came back from mating. So this box was soon occupied by the a queen from the rest of the stock.

I had done a graft or two in 2020, with mixed results. We had also visited Newburyport/Boston Mass (Melissa's work) and I talked with Bill at Black Birch Farm Apiary in West Newbury. Bill was using the Nicot system successfully and had been for several years. He said his eyesight would not allow him to graft, and I knew my own was less than ideal. The degree of precision I saw in grafting videos looked intimidating.

So I started the spring 2021 very early, trying to get a queen to lay up cups, trying to get a cup of bees to draw comb in a mini, and many other things with little success. The few beeks I knew within an hour from home were having trouble getting queens back due to cold, wet shifts in weather (or other factors not identified). I was experiencing the same.

Then the pollens kicked in, and I broke out the first barrel of sugar, and it was on!  - I bought a visor at harbor freight, broke out the grafting tools and decided with this many bees I could have 10% takes on grafts and still prevail. Of course I also spent another hundred hours of my life watching YouTube videos and reading on queen-rearing. I spent about every waking hour that I was not working either in bees, or learning more about bees.

By June (when queens are easy) I was cranking out mated queens, though the supply/demand equilibrium was not there. I would get mating nucs full of laying queens without much interest, or I would sell them out and then receive calls for more, 1-2 weeks in advance of having more. Also had a few experiences selling (or sometimes giving away) freshly-emerged queens from the incubator. Sold a round once thinking I had 2 other grafts coming right behind them, only to find a virgin queen in one of the starters (so no grafts), and some other issue in the other one (so no queens). 

Trying to find some balance this year. I really enjoy raising queens and the freedom it provides. I can do incredibly stupid stuff (like setting a frame on the ground during an inspection, and coming back 4-5 hours later to realize the queen and a handful of bees is in the grass), and all is well because an abundance of queens exists. No so when I was buying them. I encourage every beek I meet to raise a few queens for themselves (by any means). It is a complete game-changer.

If there was a way to raise 100s of queens, not increase my hive count drastically, and not deal with 50 people, that would probably be my sweet spot.  But we are placed in this life to serve others in some capacity. In particular, the tenants of my own beliefs are clear. We show our love and devotion to God by how we treat those created in His image (in other words everyone). So I need to just suck it up and keep answering the phone.  And hopefully provide some really good bees that have a good chance of thriving.

I realize I drifted off-topic a bit with all the backstory, but that is part of transparency. When I say I sold X queens or run X mating nucs, I don't want to leave the impression that I'm an expert. ..... As if.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Hi Joe good thread.
I did get Russians, I "Must" have been the first in the hood to have them.
The f1s dropped a bit and the F3s dropped a lot in the mite tolerating ability's.
IF I could have a place to breed them it would be a game changer.
However here with the Nebs having every bee sold and the pollinators coming in for the fruit, keeping the line pure has been my issue.
do not think your first 2 bullets have any truth.
the comb the Russians build with other bees have plenty mites.
If I VAP the Russians they have plenty drop.
IMO they either uncap to disrupt Mite Cycle , and/or groom.

I would be All in if I could keep them pure.
I am not into buying 30 queens a year. If I find that remote bee less area for a yard I would get some new ones and try.
Most of my bee are f3 f4 from Russians. But with out treating they would not make it.
here a community yard may work.

the Drone DCA is the key to keeping Russians lines. IMO
Glad you are giving it a try. the close folks, to your bees, if you can convince to get Russians will help.

GG


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## ffrtsaxk (Jul 17, 2017)

I have kept purebred Russians both in Langstroth and observation hives. The Russians do a much better job of uncapping and pulling pupae that have mites than any Italians I’ve had. However, they don't remove them all and still need to be treated for mites. The information I got from the Russian breeders said they usually treat once a year. My Russian hives are also the only ones that I know have cast swarms on me here in late October.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A cut-down version of my own post:



> Here is Sergey Gopka.
> Here is a popular vlogger/beekeeper who commercially runs 500+ colonies in the Primorsky region of Russia - the home place of the Russian bees.
> He starts his video with this statement:
> 
> ...


From:








GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.


Update as of 12/23/2021 Every colony got a nice chunk of fondant as an emergency insurance. Some got two chunks --------------------------------------- #1 - VSH survivor queen - I had to virtually crack away the side frame to see the bees - they are SO, SO quite and sit down deep - perfect...




www.beesource.com


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> When I say I sold X queens or run X mating nucs, I don't want to leave the impression that I'm an expert. ..... As if.


Now you have shattered my impression ... In all seriousness, I do appreciate your honesty and appreciate you starting this thread.

Russ


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Joe good thread.
> I did get Russians, I "Must" have been the first in the hood to have them.
> The f1s dropped a bit and the F3s dropped a lot in the mite tolerating ability's.
> IF I could have a place to breed them it would be a game changer.
> ...


The comb claim is really what got me on this recent quest. I saw a presentation and there were some "we found that"s that just didn't make horse sense, and data was not given. On the brood food of workers being slightly less attractive than other breeds, I could go for this as Apis ceranae had a low incidence of worker infestation in something I read. It was supposed that this was a big part of how they reasonably coexisted with some form of varroa.

But Russian comb? ... I'll try and dig up some data on this or pose it back to the presenter. It seems very unlikely on the surface.

On DCAs I think if I have a neighbor that wants bees, I'll be giving them Russians if they will take them. If not, they will end up Russians after a couple of swarms or supersedures when I darken the sky with drones.  But seriously, I'd give out several hives before I lose the advantage I currently have, ... totally worth it. I'm actually thinking about letting a few early swarms go as well. This is painful as only 1 in 4-5 are going to get established, but I know of a bee tree close by and there are probably others. If the local fauna will support them I'd rather have several miles of Russians, even if it costs 15-20 swarms to get there. This will likely happen automatically as I lose one here and there, but could be forced with feed if it can be deemed a serious factor.


ffrtsaxk said:


> I have kept purebred Russians both in Langstroth and observation hives. The Russians do a much better job of uncapping and pulling pupae that have mites than any Italians I’ve had. However, they don't remove them all and still need to be treated for mites. The information I got from the Russian breeders said they usually treat once a year. My Russian hives are also the only ones that I know have cast swarms on me here in late October.


I had a small swarm (last that I'm aware of) on Oct 14 (link below), and the prior one on Aug 21. Neither of these would be ideal, but one thing I noticed is they cast "metered" swarms, particularly after May. I would have a swarm of ~2lbs, open the hive it came from within 4-5 days to check things out and it would be packed, as if they hadn't swarmed. This is not my experience with other bees. But in fairness, we are talking about ~20 swarms in 2 years, so not really much more than a casual observation.

Jury still out on treatments/resistance. I'm willing to say, today, right now, I believe they are considerably better at dealing with mites, but not immune. Just opened a dead-out that was my uncapper-recapper, but these bees struggled all year and I stripped them down to a single 6-frame late last year. On the other hand, I used my pallet Easy Vap I recently brought from @johno 6-7 days ago, and my most active hive hasn't dropped a mite that I can find. I'm not accustomed to looking for them, but I put a piece of cardboard under the screened bottom, brought it in the house a few times, looked with a visor, took pics and blew them up etc. Both of these had Apivar and a light spray with OA last Aug/Sept. Too many possible variables to speculate as to why, but I will likely breed drones from the best untreated and queens from best treated, or vice versa. Open to suggestions on this.


__
http://instagr.am/p/CVBG8XxFXjA/



GregB said:


> A cut-down version of my own post:
> From:
> 
> 
> ...


I know you've hit on this many times Greg and studied all things Russian (at least with bees), thanks for posting. I don't have your knack for the language, absolute Greek to me. 

But I will check this out.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

I had a late swarm last year as well, was an F3 of a Russian. they got tight when I took honey.
IMO the Russians do a "usurpation" swarm.
the swarm is way late to get stores, But they can move into a hive with stores, as long as the Queen survives they made it. not sure f they find it then swarm or swarm and go look for one.

GG


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> I had a late swarm last year as well, was an F3 of a Russian. they got tight when I took honey.
> IMO the Russians do a "usurpation" swarm.
> the swarm is way late to get stores, But they can move into a hive with stores, as long as the Queen survives they made it. not sure f they find it then swarm or swarm and go look for one.
> 
> GG


I'm not sure either. I bought some swarm traps from a friend who was making them out of a scrap pile last year. It was fun watching scouts go in for several days with their little tape measures. But then they would swarm and hang around somewhere. I'm like, "I know where you are going. You know where you are going. You put it to a vote 3 days ago. Just get in there already." - But they don't always do it. 

Seems way too risky to me to get everyone gorged up on honey then hang on a bush while scouts go out, then come back and argue, especially when they've checked out 4-5 choice spots during open-house day with their real estate agent. But they pack the UHaul and sit on the side of the interstate. 

Bees, .... still don't understand them.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Bees, .... still don't understand them.


Well they are mostly all girls after all...


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Been thinking about ordering a Russian queen or 2. Have to see what the wife thinks about the expenditure. I have a good isolated place to put them.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> Well they are mostly all girls after all...


Girls have been playing dumb, then getting alone and discussing cold fusion-level topics and systematically running things for a very long time. I’m up at 3am because a girl heard a cat on the porch and got our boy pup riled up barking. Guess I’ll go on to work. They are both going back to sleep. Your comment has made me wonder if I haven’t pitted my intelligence against females to my own exhaustion once again.?.😮 How much am I letting bees decide? Who’s really running the show around here?


AR1 said:


> Been thinking about ordering a Russian queen or 2. Have to see what the wife thinks about the expenditure. I have a good isolated place to put them.


Right on cue. 😂 

Melissa used to come in from shopping and began by telling me how much she saved. Didn’t realize this was a tactic millions of other people use. 😃 I went to my bee guy’s place Sat and spent almost $500. It’s mostly EZ Nucs, frames, and things I’ll sell in 2-3 months, ... really. I received an ML catalog last week and was going to toss it. But after my Sat trip it came in really handy. “I’m sure glad I bought these. They are 35% higher from these guys.” 😂

Thankfully we laugh about the whole, “look how much I saved” argument. Sometimes I’ll throw in a “Lucy, you got some ‘splaining to do”.

I will admit I pulled her little SUV down to the storage bldg and unloaded everything while she was gone to check on her mother, but it just happened that way. Is that wrong?😮


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Your comment has made me wonder if I haven’t pitted my intelligence against females to my own exhaustion once again.?


As the father of five brilliant daughters I have learned it is indeed helpless to try to outthink them- they run circles around me... and that's before they pool their resources to engage in coordinated charm offensives.

I only wish one or a few of them would take a notion to beekeeping- then I might finally get a bit of a glimpse into the 'hive mind'.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Right on cue. 😂
> Melissa used to come in from shopping and began by telling me how much she saved. Didn’t realize this was a tactic millions of other people use. 😃 I went to my bee guy’s place Sat and spent almost $500. It’s mostly EZ Nucs, frames, and things I’ll sell in 2-3 months, ... really. I received an ML catalog last week and was going to toss it. But after my Sat trip it came in really handy. “I’m sure glad I bought these. They are 35% higher from these guys.” 😂
> 
> Thankfully we laugh about the whole, “look how much I saved” argument. Sometimes I’ll throw in a “Lucy, you got some ‘splaining to do”.


I did get chewed a bit this week for buying something at the store that she could have got a lot cheaper on line. But I was done waiting. One very nice thing about getting up in middle age is NOT having to count every penny. By no means rich by American standards, but it's nice to know the wolf is not right at the door.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> As the father of five brilliant daughters I have learned it is indeed helpless to try to outthink them- they run circles around me... and that's before they pool their resources to engage in coordinated charm offensives.
> 
> I only wish one or a few of them would take a notion to beekeeping- then I might finally get a bit of a glimpse into the 'hive mind'.


Yes, once the kids outnumbered us it was pretty much over. In a conversation they hunted like velociraptors. One would have your attention, another would throw a curve ball, the third would set up the next volley. 😂

On the bee front I opened another dead-out today. There were 2 large hives (on the treatment side) that I didn’t get Apivar in last fall. One was MMD, the other is DD 10-frame Langs heavy with resources. Around Oct when I finally got to them I put on a feeder rim and a tub of Apiguard. It stayed so cool it didn’t sublimate.

So one died out a few weeks ago without obvious mite sign, but this one had what should have been minor mite poop, but I think at some point they tried to brood a tiny amount, then rapid weather shifts made it hard to move off the brood to food. They were side by side.

View attachment 67627


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> On the bee front I opened another dead-out today.


These late failures are always disappointing. Hopefully it is your last one for the season. Any pollen coming in down there?


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> These late failures are always disappointing. Hopefully it is your last one for the season. Any pollen coming in down there?


None at all. Someone in Nashville posted multiple pollens coming in, so it’s a fair bet something is blooming in the valleys. I’ll try and notice when I leave work. There are several million ornamentals growing with 10-15 miles. Should probably scope out an area around the edges of the parking lot here to place a colony or two.

I’m definitely hoping there are no more losses, but I anticipated a slight loss at the second winter. I really didn’t have much trouble getting Italians through the first winter (untreated), but the second was a different matter.

As much as I hate losing some, there is no selection without selection. Trying to document the “why” on successful colonies and repeat the processes, make comparative genetic guesses and whatnot.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> As much as I hate losing some, there is no selection without selection. Trying to document the “why” on successful colonies and repeat the processes, make comparative genetic guesses and whatnot.


Good point. At least for me this is a difficult paradigm to consistently and purposefully execute. But I am reminded of Brother Adam's observation in _Breeding the Honeybee_, '_It is obvious that we cannot breed resistant strains in areas where there is no disease nor where there is no positive comparisons with other colonies.'_

Or as Dr. Kefuss recalls the fundamental axiom of his mentor Dr. Rothenbuhler, _‘If you are selecting for disease resistance, you must have the disease.’_


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## coffeefirst (Jul 1, 2021)

Dry, healthy and feed. Other than that you're throwing your money away. I don't care what kind of bees you have, or where you get them.
Florida and south Georgia and Alabama bees are not going to do good up north or in the mountains. The sellers want your $$$ money. Plain & simple..A Hawaii bee is not a Tennessee bee just because it's sold in TN. 
If you have death losses, it's YOUR fault, not the bees. All they are asking from YOU, is take care of me and I'll give you some of my product.
DRY< HEALTHY ( TREAT), FEED. They'er like puppies, you gotta take of them. One hive should make you a dozen in just a few years.
I know I'll probably piss a lot of sellers off, but I'm telling it like it is.
Get the right bees from an old-timer, sometimes they'er wrong too, but shop and ask.
I get so tired of reading such bs on this site.
Some is good, other is bs
fancy words and all I'm going on 77 and some of you guys are all wet.
Why buy a $1000 or $2000 of bees each year because of your losses?


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

coffeefirst said:


> Get the right bees from an old-timer, sometimes they'er wrong too, but shop and ask.
> I get so tired of reading such bs on this site.
> Some is good, other is bs
> fancy words and all I'm going on 77 and some of you guys are all wet.
> Why buy a $1000 or $2000 of bees each year because of your losses?


Totally hear you. Most of my efforts for 2 years have been switching stocks to a cold-acclimated bee.

Also not trying to gain sympathy, and not throwing any blame on anyone. That said, I’ve killed plenty of bees through ignorance that had little to nothing to do with mites. 🐝 But I’m definitely interested in bees that can at least meet me in the middle on that issue. If I get obsessed with mites, and end up making charts of how many times I’ve fogged them 5 days apart for 35 days 3x a year, etc., I’ll quit. Not going to happen.

I pretty much treat them like pets. And unless a tornado wipes them out, I don’t see a time when I’ll be buying bees, apart from a queen or two for breeding/crossing purposes.


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## Robert L. Gifford (Feb 27, 2021)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Greetings All,
> 
> We are entering our 3rd year with Russians. I was asked recently to speak at one of the larger clubs on the topic, and something has been brewing in my brain for a while. That is the need to share experiences, even anecdotal, and try and derive what we can apart from the marketing. And most of all, to bring out what I've done, see what you've done, in the clear light of day, with no one pushing a $ angle. In other words, within the confines and caveats of poor record-keeping, complete transparency.
> 
> ...


Hey, I have been running Russian bees since 2006, exclusively. The real key to success with these girls is learning to managing them. Some of the BK'S are trying to manage them like Italians. As most BK'S find out, "this does not work". First I would recommend picking up the book "Russian Honey Bees" by Thomas Rinderer and Steven Coy. Most of the management procedures are covered in this book. Some of the techniques are very new, and some are modified from previous experience. Most all ofthe experimenting is explained, as used at the bee lab in Baton Rouge. Whether readers are looking for a comprehensive overview of scientific aspects of Russian honey bees or guidlinedfor the practical management of Russian honey bees, they will find it in "Russian Honey Bees". Good Luck
Robert Gifford


joebeewhisperer said:


> Greetings All,
> 
> We are entering our 3rd year with Russians. I was asked recently to speak at one of the larger clubs on the topic, and something has been brewing in my brain for a while. That is the need to share experiences, even anecdotal, and try and derive what we can apart from the marketing. And most of all, to bring out what I've done, see what you've done, in the clear light of day, with no one pushing a $ angle. In other words, within the confines and caveats of poor record-keeping, complete transparency.
> 
> ...





joebeewhisperer said:


> Greetings All,
> 
> We are entering our 3rd year with Russians. I was asked recently to speak at one of the larger clubs on the topic, and something has been brewing in my brain for a while. That is the need to share experiences, even anecdotal, and try and derive what we can apart from the marketing. And most of all, to bring out what I've done, see what you've done, in the clear light of day, with no one pushing a $ angle. In other words, within the confines and caveats of poor record-keeping, complete transparency.
> 
> ...


Hey, I have been raising Russian honey bees since 2006 without any major problems. Few books on the market it difficult to get started, and trying to raise and manage Russians like Italians will fail. I would recommend getting the book, "Russian Honey Bees", by Thomas Rinderer and Steven Coy. Whether readers are looking for a comprehensive overview of scientific aspects of Russian Honey Bees or guidelines for the practical management of Russian honey bees, they will find it in the book "Russian Honey Bees". The book is by many of the scientific contributors of the Baton Rouge Lab. Good Luck. Robert Gifford


joebeewhisperer said:


> Greetings All,
> 
> We are entering our 3rd year with Russians. I was asked recently to speak at one of the larger clubs on the topic, and something has been brewing in my brain for a while. That is the need to share experiences, even anecdotal, and try and derive what we can apart from the marketing. And most of all, to bring out what I've done, see what you've done, in the clear light of day, with no one pushing a $ angle. In other words, within the confines and caveats of poor record-keeping, complete transparency.
> 
> ...





joebeewhisperer said:


> Greetings All,
> 
> We are entering our 3rd year with Russians. I was asked recently to speak at one of the larger clubs on the topic, and something has been brewing in my brain for a while. That is the need to share experiences, even anecdotal, and try and derive what we can apart from the marketing. And most of all, to bring out what I've done, see what you've done, in the clear light of day, with no one pushing a $ angle. In other words, within the confines and caveats of poor record-keeping, complete transparency.
> 
> ...





coffeefirst said:


> Dry, healthy and feed. Other than that you're throwing your money away. I don't care what kind of bees you have, or where you get them.
> Florida and south Georgia and Alabama bees are not going to do good up north or in the mountains. The sellers want your $$$ money. Plain & simple..A Hawaii bee is not a Tennessee bee just because it's sold in TN.
> If you have death losses, it's YOUR fault, not the bees. All they are asking from YOU, is take care of me and I'll give you some of my product.
> DRY< HEALTHY ( TREAT), FEED. They'er like puppies, you gotta take of them. One hive should make you a dozen in just a few years.
> ...





joebeewhisperer said:


> Greetings All,
> 
> We are entering our 3rd year with Russians. I was asked recently to speak at one of the larger clubs on the topic, and something has been brewing in my brain for a while. That is the need to share experiences, even anecdotal, and try and derive what we can apart from the marketing. And most of all, to bring out what I've done, see what you've done, in the clear light of day, with no one pushing a $ angle. In other words, within the confines and caveats of poor record-keeping, complete transparency.
> 
> ...


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Thanks @Robert L. Gifford - I bought the kindle/ebook version of the book a few months ago. I truly need to go through it again.

The winter of 2020 we had almost no cold (though spring was a wet mess). Even so, the queens shut down by Thanksgiving and were totally broodless by Dec 10, some earlier. On Dec 31 we had a warm snap and the largest few picked back up. So I had some with a short-ish brood break and some tiny late colonies that waited another month.

In Oct 2021 it got cool really early and most of them shut down. By Nov 1 there were probably only 3-4 that had any eggs at all. Then the cluster sizes dropped to 2lbs in huge hives, then probably closer to 1lb. Thankfully I spoke with a beek several years ago that told me his Russian hives would have softball-sized clusters.

I spoke with an apiary owner in NC last winter (2020-2021), who had experimented with Russians. He’s about 30 and runs ~500 hives mostly for honey. He said, “Mites were never a problem but I just wanted to go out in Feb and shake those tiny clusters out on the ground!” - So the bees didn’t fit his purposes.

This also demonstrates your point on management styles. If I had a mixed yard, I’d be looking at say Italians that had brooded most all winter beside queens that are just now laying from a saucer to a dinner plate (depending on hive size) in open brood, with maybe a previous round of a few hundred workers. It would seem that the Russians are doomed, but without a rigid treatment regime, the exact opposite would be true.

As I looked over a frame yesterday in one of the smaller nucs, it was obvious that a mite would truly have no place to hide. There was zero capped brood, and some healthy-looking new bees (no wing wear, still fuzzy), taking care of this 2nd, slightly larger round of brood. Queens are slightly larger than before they mated, but that will change a month from now.

I am exclusively Russian, and reordered a few queens from Steven & Angelia Coy for this year just to support them more than anything else. But Im also curious to run a few experiments. I will likely keep the home yard in this line. No immediate plans to change genetics.

Thanks for posting. Definitely interested in picking your brain some with your experience in these bees. 😃🐝


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> As I looked over a frame yesterday in one of the smaller nucs, it was obvious that a mite would truly have no place to hide. There was zero capped brood, and some healthy-looking new bees (no wing wear, still fuzzy), taking care of this 2nd, slightly larger round of brood.


Joe:

Good reporting- I appreciate it. Although I don't have pedigree bees like you, this is very similar to what I see in a lot of my colonies. There is no doubt in my mind that this measured brood rearing is one part of the resistance equation and might represent one aspect of where our management might negatively impact it. Meaning, if we are supplentally feeding or offering early season pollen substitutes we positively impact brood rearing but might also bend the mite curve in the wrong direction early in the season, becoming a compounded problem later in the season.

I see this effect on the tail end of the season too when I am surprised to find very little capped brood in the colonies earlier that I expect them to be done rearing winter bees.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> Joe:
> 
> Good reporting- I appreciate it. Although I don't have pedigree bees like you, this is very similar to what I see in a lot of my colonies. There is no doubt in my mind that this measured brood rearing is one part of the resistance equation and might represent one aspect of where our management might negatively impact it. *Meaning, if we are supplentally feeding or offering early season pollen substitutes we positively impact brood rearing but might also bend the mite curve in the wrong direction early in the season, becoming a compounded problem later in the season.*
> 
> I see this effect on the tail end of the season too when I am surprised to find very little capped brood in the colonies earlier that I expect them to be done rearing winter bees.


you are catching on Russ.
every action has a equal reaction, some we know many we do not.

when I stimulate early brood for splits, I then Vap the splits, just before the queen hatches and again when I see eggs, but before sealed brood. try to unwind the early mite start.

early fed also effects the nest, bees want to open it for brood, but could be packing in the feed, As making comb that early is not often done. And with "Queen Memory" they may think there is a "flow" in late feb and next year build up for it.

And...

GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> every action has a equal reaction, some we know many we do not.


So true... it reminds me that our management is in itself a selection factor- and one that I all too often take for granted.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> Joe:
> 
> Good reporting- I appreciate it. Although I don't have pedigree bees like you, this is very similar to what I see in a lot of my colonies. There is no doubt in my mind that this measured brood rearing is one part of the resistance equation and might represent one aspect of where our management might negatively impact it. Meaning, if we are supplementally feeding or offering early season pollen substitutes we positively impact brood rearing but might also bend the mite curve in the wrong direction early in the season, becoming a compounded problem later in the season.
> 
> I see this effect on the tail end of the season too when I am surprised to find very little capped brood in the colonies earlier that I expect them to be done rearing winter bees.


I'm sure the antsy-ness of wanting 30K bees in a box in March to split will leave with experience. Honestly, I booked sales on a few nucs (I think very realistic under almost worst-case scenarios), but this probably adds to my wanting large amounts of bees early, ... simple economics. I didn't take deposits, and I could lose much of what remains and still make them up (assuming health, lack of tornadoes, etc), but next season I may be more reluctant to do this. 


Gray Goose said:


> you are catching on Russ.
> every action has a equal reaction, some we know many we do not.
> 
> when I stimulate early brood for splits, I then Vap the splits, just before the queen hatches and again when I see eggs, but before sealed brood. try to unwind the early mite start.
> ...


All good points @Gray Goose - Definitely a lot of variables in spring. How much backfill before comb-drawing is possible is not something I've given a lot of thought. My general plan is to produce drones and possibly queens from the best untreated colonies, but I will likely build nucs initially from frames that have been vaped. Don't know if this strategy makes sense, but it is what is currently in my head. 

We bought our first house in 1993. It was an older home, built sturdy but no insulation in walls and drywall that had been hung, then wallpapered probably in the 1940's-50's. There was even a section in the kitchen with lathe and plaster. It had hard maple floors and some interesting features, but needed work. A good friend of mine (the late Eddie Neeley, drywall finisher by day, world-class drummer by night) walked through the house with me. He would peck on the walls with a drywall hammer saying things like, "The more I look, the more I see" with a big smile beaming. Finally in the nursery, he pecked a few times then drove the hammer through the drywall leaving a hole and sinking my heart. He laughed and assured me it was nothing to worry about, but I knew I would have to explain it, as he was not coming back until the weekend. 

Well, I found out with houses he was indeed correct. With every facet you would gain a kindergarten understanding, think you had some skills, then realize you knew virtually nothing compared to pros in their respective fields. With bees, I hit a couple plateaus, but now I almost feel I'm backing up. 

Indeed there is more to learn than I have learned so far.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Indeed there is more to learn than I have learned so far.


there comes that point tight after you know it all , when you realize you do not know 1/2 of it.
feels like a back peddle only cuz the goal post moved.

GG


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> there comes that point tight after you know it all , when you realize you do not know 1/2 of it.
> feels like a back peddle only cuz the goal post moved.
> 
> GG


Yep. Like today I was control-burning a small amount of sage grass in front of some hives. Mouse ran out of a hive. Had my first mouse a month ago in a dead-out, same pallet. This may not be bode well for this hive, but bees were stirring 3-4 days ago.

Thing is, coming up on 6 years back in it. Everyone talks about mouse guards. Didn’t seem relevant until now.

My cats are on notice. They bring up a mole or mouse every few days. We have some bird feeders outside the kitchen and it’s crazy how much ends up on the ground. Chickens clean it up pretty good, but there’s frequent mole traffic, and this whole setup is 20’ from where the mouse ran out. If I was a mouse it would be paradise, ... apart from the occasional feline obstacle course. 🐀 🙀


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

joebeewhisperer said:


> My cats are on notice. They bring up a *mole *or mouse every few days. We have some bird feeders outside the kitchen and it’s crazy how much ends up on the ground. Chickens clean it up pretty good, but there’s frequent *mole *traffic, and this whole setup is 20’ from where the mouse ran out. If I was a mouse it would be paradise, ... apart from the occasional feline obstacle course. 🐀 🙀


Vole you mean, not mole.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

GregB said:


> Vole you mean, not mole.


I first thought you were diving off into a sports reference (TN Vols) which would leave me in unfamiliar territory. 😜

I‘ve heard of voles, and may have seen a few, but the meadow vole pics on the TN wildlife website look very foreign, the head/face in particular.

But in general I’m talking about this guy.








Hairy-tailed Mole | Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency


A small, stout, streamlined mammal with concealed ears, tiny eyes, and a fleshy, movable snout. The velvety fur is dark gray or nearly black above and slightly lighter beneath. As the name suggests, its tail is densely furred and short.




www.tn.gov





Glad you brought it up though. Not 100% sure what came out of that hive today had a full field mouse tail. I’ll check him out when he gets in my trap (assuming he likes peanut butter with his honey).🍯🐀

We have some tiny little shrews also. Probably some voles in there. Disposed of a shrew and mid-sized mole today. But I’ll start paying more attention. Thanks


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

While painting away in the garage, I noticed that the _Beekeeping Today Podcast_ has not one, not two, but three episodes on the Russian Bee program- the one with Dr. Rinderer and Steve Coy is especially good IMHO:

Dan Conlon: It's All About The Russians (Russian honey bees, that is)

Talking Russian Honey Bees with Dr. Tom Rinderer and Steve Coy

Russian Honey Bee and EAS Updates with Dan Conlon


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> While painting away in the garage, I noticed that the _Beekeeping Today Podcast_ has not one, not two, but three episodes on the Russian Bee program- the one with Dr. Rinderer and Steve Coy is especially good IMHO:
> 
> Dan Conlon: It's All About The Russians (Russian honey bees, that is)
> 
> ...


Thanks Russ! 😃

I’ll check these out. 
Mr. Conlon did a presentation for Tn Valley (TVBA - Chattanooga area) last spring which is on their YouTube channel (link below).






The audio gets a bit glitchy for a few minutes in the middle, but overall a good presentation.

Thanks again!

And again I welcome input from everyone. If you have experience with Russians (bees that is 😜🐝) I’d love to hear from you. If questions about them, the community will try and provide answers (or at least opinions 😂). Thanks


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Yep. Like today I was control-burning a small amount of sage grass in front of some hives. Mouse ran out of a hive. Had my first mouse a month ago in a dead-out, same pallet. This may not be bode well for this hive, but bees were stirring 3-4 days ago.
> 
> Thing is, coming up on 6 years back in it. Everyone talks about mouse guards. Didn’t seem relevant until now.
> 
> My cats are on notice. They bring up a mole or mouse every few days. We have some bird feeders outside the kitchen and it’s crazy how much ends up on the ground. Chickens clean it up pretty good, but there’s frequent mole traffic, and this whole setup is 20’ from where the mouse ran out. If I was a mouse it would be paradise, ... apart from the occasional feline obstacle course. 🐀 🙀


I have several firewood piles seem good Habitat for mice.
the warm and food attract them into the hives. some smarten up about the cats.
I have several comb with hole rebuild out a lighter color.

I hate mice.

I can see in the snow they go hive to hive looking for a dead bee to eat most of the winter.
Any chance they are in, IMO they can kill a hive, disruption to the cluster too often.
Like a bear in your house, would make it hard to get a good nights sleep.

Mowing round the hives helps exposes the little vermin to hawks and cats.
I also put the little green poison pellets in Sour Cream containers with a mouse size hole.
also helps keep them down.

A bucket with 3 inches of water and a leaning board to penut butter on the handle also cn work at warmer times of the year.

GG


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> I have several firewood piles seem good Habitat for mice.
> the warm and food attract them into the hives. some smarten up about the cats.
> I have several comb with hole rebuild out a lighter color.
> 
> ...


Yep. I realize they have to make a living like the rest of us, but they landed in an inconvenient spot from where I stand. Just checked my trap (between 2 hives on a pallet. He cleaned up some PB I put at the entrance, but didn’t turn the corner.

If it warms up I’ll block the front, pop the top box and dig him out manually. Otherwise he will likely fall for the peanut butter eventually, now that he has a taste. Next winter I may just take this mouse guard thing seriously.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Yep. I realize they have to make a living like the rest of us, but they landed in an inconvenient spot from where I stand. Just checked my trap (between 2 hives on a pallet. He cleaned up some PB I put at the entrance, but didn’t turn the corner.
> 
> If it warms up I’ll block the front, pop the top box and dig him out manually. Otherwise he will likely fall for the peanut butter eventually, now that he has a taste. Next winter I may just take this mouse guard thing seriously.


I had to do the Mouse guard thing, too much damage. and the pee if they are in for most of the winter.

my 1/2 x1/2 seems to not stop the Screw, if you have them you may as well go straight to 3/8 mesh, it is hard to find.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

joebeewhisperer said:


> But in general I’m talking about this guy.


Mole it is. 
Just to most people around me - it is all the same - mole/vole/....
The "educated suburban populace" - all I can say.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> I had to do the Mouse guard thing, too much damage. and the pee if they are in for most of the winter.
> 
> my 1/2 x1/2 seems to not stop the Screw, if you have them you may as well go straight to 3/8 mesh, it is hard to find.


Thanks. I popped the lid (MD 10-frame Lang) and true to Russian style there’s about 1lb of bees in the deep on top. Mouse had uncapped a fair amount in the medium currently on bottom, but hadn’t really set up shop for a nest.

Total weight of both boxes is probably 80lbs. So he’s been drunk on free stores for a while, but this probably saved the bees from being snacked on while clustered.

I took the boxes off and cleaned the screened bottom. Hopefully that left room for pee, didn’t notice a smell, but didn’t stick my nose to the board. 😜

I’ll likely close the screened opening with a blue board under, then mouse guard the place. From late-March until Oct, a mouse walking in the front door of a hive here would have a very bad day. 


GregB said:


> Mole it is.
> Just to most people around me - it is all the same - mole/vole/....
> The "educated suburban populace" - all I can say.


😂 Word.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Mr. Conlon did a presentation for Tn Valley (TVBA - Chattanooga area) last spring which is on their YouTube channel (link below).


This is quite a presentation, Joe. I am going to listen to it in it's entirety tomorrow. Thank you for posting.

Russ


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> This is quite a presentation, Joe. I am going to listen to it in it's entirety tomorrow. Thank you for posting.
> 
> Russ


Going to be a hard act to follow. 😜

I’ve been asked to do an in-person + zoom on Russians there next month. So getting me after the president of RHBA is like getting Mr. Drysdale, then Jethro. 😂 Even that may be stretching it. Signed, Jethro


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Going to be a hard act to follow. 😜
> 
> I’ve been asked to do an in-person + zoom on Russians there next month. So getting me after the president of RHBA is like getting Mr. Drysdale, then Jethro. 😂 Even that may be stretching it. Signed, Jethro


just talk about what the Russians did for you.
Straight talk from a person that really has bees in the back yard, is always valuable.
some talk on the differences, for a person thinking of going that way.

the RHBA guy is going to speak of lines and participants and testing in Baton Rouge, big picture stuff, just bring it down the the average Joe . Actually it is a good spot. he will lay the tracks and you will paint the train. 
your not there to compare or contrast, but to complete, and continue.
with this great backing "here is what you can do, because I did it".



GG


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> just talk about what the Russians did for you.
> Straight talk from a person that really has bees in the back yard, is always valuable.
> some talk on the differences, for a person thinking of going that way.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I actually told them I would hit more on the "Why I chose Russians" angle. May do a general "Russian traits" intro, but one main angle is pointing out that these are different bees, and honestly not for everyone. Then, your point, [... "here is what you can do, because I did it".] is a very good base for anyone who is still interested or considering the shift. 

I also tend to do the ADD version of presentation. I've done some presenting, but not on bees. I try to keep it 20-25 minutes, then I can do Q & A for as long as it takes. My recent trip to the bee supplier went 2.5 hours. While that was a really good time, I have to be careful not to turn this into that.  I notice a lot of these things that are going for 2-3 hours. Who has that kind of time? I usually cull long YouTube videos just on length.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Just got this text from a buddy down here. He got an early nuc and split it. Told me both had died a while back. He also got late nucs and several queens. But these 2 I really thought about (and referenced).


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> So getting me after the president of RHBA is like getting Mr. Drysdale, then Jethro.


Well he did have a giant brain:


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

GregB said:


> Mole it is.
> Just to most people around me - it is all the same - mole/vole/....
> The "educated suburban populace" - all I can say.


Mole--- meat .... Insects ,grubs
Vole--- vegetable ........ Your wife's prize dahlia roots


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> Mole--- meat insects ,grubs
> Vole--- vegetable your wife's prize dahlias


Exactly how I have to explain this to the co-workers.
Mole==meat-eater.
Vole==vegetarian
OK, back to the Russian bees!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think the weasel that was hanging around has pretty well cleaned up the mice, etc.around the bees. Seeing hardly any holes in the snow around the hive fronts. I hope the weasel nabs the red squirrels too. Only seeing about half a dozen bees a day in front of hives


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

GregB said:


> Exactly how I have to explain this to the co-workers.
> Mole==meat-eater.
> Vole==vegetarian
> OK, back to the Russian bees!


Bees drift, beeks drift, ... and most are omnivorous.


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## plantman (May 30, 2020)

Well a first for me to this year..


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

plantman said:


> Well a first for me to this year..


Argh. Well, we will keep them out this year.

Mine have finally begun brooding. In 3 weeks it’s going to be a bad day for vermin trying to mooch a living.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Mr. Conlon did a presentation for Tn Valley (TVBA - Chattanooga area) last spring which is on their YouTube channel (link below).


I had a chance to watch the video- Dan certainly is a good spokesman for the program and makes a lot of compelling arguments for using Russian stock.

I was also encouraged to hear him say near the end of the program that he feels that genetic diversity is key- and not to get too balled up about maintaining genetic purity of the imported Russian stock.

Also wondering if there is any merit to the comment below yours- maybe @GregB can help us out on this one:



> _This whole thing is just a commercial. I'm constantly listening for russian bee scientist professor Kashkovskiy (Кашковский). He was around bees and especially around russian bees for over seven decades now. He himself always treat bees for varroa mites and russian bees suffer from all of the bee diseases as any other breed. And they are mean bees. You don't want to keep those colonies in neighborhoods or around the kids_




Thanks again for sharing- I appreciate it.

Russ


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> I had a chance to watch the video- Dan certainly is a good spokesman for the program and makes a lot of compelling arguments for using Russian stock.
> 
> I was also encouraged to hear him say near the end of the program that he feels that genetic diversity is key- and not to get too balled up about maintaining genetic purity of the imported Russian stock.
> 
> ...


On diversity, it is my understanding that the breeders in RHBA are trying to maintain a 70% true-to-stock model. I forget what it's called, but basically when the markers/alleles (forgive my ignorance) fall below 70% of a standard set early-on, that they are no longer considered Russian (or "pure" or whatever term you like).

I heard Steven Coy say that certain traits get watered-down fairly quickly. I observed this on a small scale when the charged emergency queen cells for which Russians are known would disappear if the workers themselves had some non-Russian daddies.

I think it would be (and is) difficult to maintain a line or lines without extreme isolation. In the beginning of this experiment a breeding (and quarantine) island was used. That's when you know you are serious.  I've seen other examples of this throughout the world. But moving inland, you're gonna pick up some strays. I believe you can produce drones in abundance and seriously change the balance of power in a neighborhood (in fact I'm counting on it for plan B), but a certain amount of genetic diversity is unavoidable IMO.

That said, I agree that you are exponentially better-off breeding from survivors you've done real experiments with than trying to shoot for some "pie-in-the-sky" stock, Russian or otherwise. As much as I've noticed a "confirmation bias" with beeks who succeed (like "I put gingerbread in all my hives and they all lived. No gingerbread in yours? I told you they would die, and they died."), I've equally seen folks who continue to truly feel they can't raise a better queen than they can buy. Folks will trust someone on eBay to sell them a super-bee because deep-down, they don't trust their own instincts. We should all probably get over that.

I'm operating under a basic belief that the Primorski (Russian) bees are better at dealing with mites as a whole than Italians. The fact that I have a few brood combs that have been in service since mid-2020 with only 2 OA dribbles 3 weeks apart in late 2020 would seem to give some credence to this theory, but I'm not convinced of anything. I also have 2 large hives that went into winter as well stocked as any on earth, but were among those with only the aforementioned 2020 dribbles for treatment as I didn't get around to treating them. They are dead. If they had been Italians, they would be dead, ..... but probably much earlier.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> I believe you can produce drones in abundance and seriously change the balance of power in a neighborhood (in fact I'm counting on it for plan B), but a certain amount of genetic diversity is unavoidable IMO.


Good reply, Joe. My comment about genetic diversity was meant as a positive- I was glad to hear Dan suggest that it was acceptable (and maybe appropriate) to open-mate your Russian genetics, given that short of a closed program it is going to happen anyway. In other words, I thought it was encouraging to know he's not suggesting that one has to continue to import certified stock year-after-year, with the understanding that the results might be intermediate of the pedigree stock you bring in. And it does seem anecdotally that the certified stock performs as advertised- not explicitly treatment-free, but varroa-tolerant and offering a means to minimize the need for chemical intervention relative to other stocks. I certainly would not hesitate to introduce some into my apiary, especially given that the traits Dan describes sound very similar to the mutt stock I've been working with (at least the good ones).


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

joebeewhisperer said:


> I'm operating under a basic belief that the Primorski (Russian) bees are better at dealing with mites as a whole than Italians.


If you ever get any of the really vulnerable stock, you will know it and soon. I have mentioned this story many times, but I got a swarm in early summer that got PMS and died by fall. Saddest thing. I wish I had known what to do about them then. The difference between tolerant stock and vulnerable stock is extreme, and very very easy to see.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

" And it does seem anecdotally that the certified stock performs as advertised- not explicitly treatment-free, but varroa-tolerant and offering a means to minimize the need for chemical intervention relative to other stocks."

I can attest to this.
I attempted TF beekeeping from '04 to '18 with Rus based stock from RHBBA and had acceptable losses until I was almost wiped out 2 yrs in a row by VDV-1.
I was doing OK until the explosion of new beekeepers in my area and their Italian packages; after the CCD and Save The Bees media hype.
I have met a few of the breeders and they will be the first to admit that,although the breeding stock is TF, mite control can still be needed in their regular operations,especially the more southern guys with year round brood .
I still meet up with Dan every year or so for a few Qs. A really nice guy, a fixture on the local beekeeping scene and a fellow EAS life member.

Be prepared to manage your Rus bees a little differently.Brood nests expand and contract with the pollen flow and they don't work well for early pollination contracts.
Be prepared to lose a few swarms and the need to pinch the odd nasty Q.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> I attempted TF beekeeping from '04 to '18 with Rus based stock from RHBBA and had acceptable losses until I was almost wiped out 2 yrs in a row by VDV-1.


Were your bees lab tested for this?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> This whole thing is just a commercial. *Right an so are billboards and most of the pop ups that we are besieged by.*
> I'm constantly listening for russian bee scientist professor Kashkovskiy (Кашковский). He was around bees and especially around russian bees for over seven decades now. *Ok the "exact" same bees, Likely not as they were in Baton Rouge for a few years and it has been a few years.*
> 
> He himself always treat bees for varroa mites and russian bees suffer from all of the bee diseases as any other breed. *Right bees are bees and all need care when appropriate.*
> And they are mean bees. You don't want to keep those colonies in neighborhoods or around the kids. *Lots of bees can be mean , BeeWeaver, Black Bee, Africanized, There is always some risk in closely populated areas , and kids when playing near any hive can have "experiences"*


so you want a kid safe, city certified, never mean, productive , north tolerant, bee with no marketing, me too where Do I order them?

every one has an opinion, does 1 man have the final opinion?

If you really want to know,, get them for a few years, then you know.

And yes as they outcross they change, it is not really their fault. I would think some places out cross faster and meaner, and some would not.

I see Mike Palmer is helping kids with bees in Mexico, they certainly have African traits, seems to be working.
Its all shades of gray, some, you will be OK with, and Some not so much.

GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> every one has an opinion, does 1 man have the final opinion?


GG:

Just making clear that this comment was not mine, but rather the comment of a random poster on YouTube. The part of his commentary that I was more interested in was the assertion that a Russia-based bee scientist (Kashkovskiy) had studied the Primorsky bees and come to a different conclusion than Dr. Rinderer and team. Curious if there was any scholarship he had produced for review.

Here is what little I can find online: https://ms.redfeatherfarm.org/1120-kashkovsky-a-great-teacher-of-science-of-beekeeping.html


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

In reality any one mans opinion even if formed over many years is not very indicative on any topic that has that much variability in both the creature and the conditions. The old 7 blind men and the elephant effect.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> In reality any one mans opinion even if formed over many years is not very indicative on any topic that has that much variability in both the creature and the conditions. The old 7 blind men and the elephant effect.


I’m reminded of a movie quote, 

1st character: “No, if I take this in there the CEO is going to start gushing over it and I’ll take all the credit for your work

2nd character: “Where’s your ethics?”

1st character: “My ethics are that I know this about myself and I’m telling you now.”

So I’m beginning to realize as I get older that my opinions are not necessarily facts to everyone else. 😜

Still thinking of ways to change that. 😂😎


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

I also feel it necessary to clarify some discontinuity in my previous posts. (I’ve been waiting to use discontinuity correctly in a sentence for a long time). 😂

Every Russian breeder I’ve heard so far urged folks to buy from that select group of people, in order to get as close to the original stock (with survivorship from the program).

I think if I were interested in Russians for the first time, I would agree this would probably be the best route. Just don’t be afraid to trust your gut raising your own. And again, don’t always assume every commercial queen operation churns out better queens than you can produce a few at a time in your backyard. 😀


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> Be prepared to manage your Rus bees a little differently.Brood nests expand and contract with the pollen flow and they don't work well for early pollination contracts.
> Be prepared to lose a few swarms and the need to pinch the odd nasty Q.


This should probably be on a t-shirt. I may use this on a slide verbatim with your permission. Leaving out mite-talk I think these 3 sentences pretty much sum it up.

.... of course that might chop 20 minutes from a talk. 😜

Actually getting great ideas from each of you. Keep’em coming.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> Be prepared to manage your Rus bees a little differently.Brood nests expand and contract with the pollen flow and they don't work well for early pollination contracts.
> Be prepared to lose a few swarms and the need to pinch the odd nasty Q.


Can they be fed up early with sub and expand in time? Purely academic interest for me, but I'd think bees like that would be ideal for pollination, easy to get to expand right when you want them to. I am probably missing something due to unfamiliarity with the business/bees.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

AR1 said:


> Can they be fed up early with sub and expand in time? Purely academic interest for me, but I'd think bees like that would be ideal for pollination, easy to get to expand right when you want them to. I am probably missing something due to unfamiliarity with the business/bees.


my F3s can be fed and build up.
I do not recall the original Queens being fed up. I left them to determine the "better" ones to split from.

At some level they are "Bees" so most bee management stuffs work.
the one big first noticed difference was they like to keep QCs all the time, tear them down, then rebuild them. very common to find 4-6 day cells, then gone in 5 days on next inspection. They were real QCs as I took a few to make increase. So once you get over that , most of the rest is similar.

GG


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

clyderoad said:


> Were your bees lab tested for this?


Yes. In 2016,Randy Oliver solicited for samples of treatment free bees to be used in a study by Dr Stephen Martin(in England) to determine the prevalence of different variants of DWV.
When I finally got results almost a year later,they said that my bees tested positive for the type B(more virulent variant) strain of DWV.
The following year(or maybe 2yrs),we had Dr Jay Evans(Beltsville ) at our club and part of the presentation discussed the renaming of type B to VDV-1 and the fact that,at the time,VDV-1 was becoming the prevalent variant sweeping across the US.

I never did get any notification of a published paper but I believe this paper from 2019 may contain the data from 2016. 



DWV-A lethal to honey bees (Apis mellifera) : a colony level survey of DWV variants (A, B & C) in England, Wales and 32 states across the US - University of Salford Institutional Repository



Note:
About this time there as some confusion in the naming of DWV varients which I think brought about the renaming to VDV-1.
What added to the confusion was the reporting of the "Swindon Bees" kept by Ron Hoskins and the naming of this supposed non-virulent variant.(an interesting story)


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

AR1 said:


> Can they be fed up early with sub and expand in time? Purely academic interest for me, but I'd think bees like that would be ideal for pollination, easy to get to expand right when you want them to. I am probably missing something due to unfamiliarity with the business/bees.


I think Mr. Conlon said that, like other bees, you can manipulate early season populations with feed. But I think is was in the context of knowing they are starting small. I believe it was that same presentation (or I’ve heard recently elsewhere) that a statement was made about folks being amazed by the buildup once it comes, that such a small amount of nurses could care for such a large batch of initial brood.

I’m not contradicting as the buildup is impressive, but it’s in early April that you notice a sudden explosion in bees.

The RHBA folks by definition keep >200 hives and Mr Conlon has many more hives than this, and many years of experience. So they probably know lots of ways to make these bees jump on command.

I feed like crazy much of the time as increase in frames and bees is a major goal. But as far as the way I manage bees (adjusted for 2 years of Russians), I would say if you need CA Almond bees in Feb, and you want Russians, you need to live in Orlando. Long(er) days and year-round warm temps would be necessary. Again, this is confined by my current ignorance.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Litsinger said:


> Just making clear that this comment was not mine, but rather the comment of a random poster on YouTube.


Just a note to say that I edited the original post by Litsinger to enclose that Youtube comment in Quote brackets so as to make it more clear what the source of the comment was.

And @Gray Goose, there is a better way of responding to portions of a quote that might work for you. Just highlight the phrase that you wish to quote, then choose the "Reply" dropdown that* appears right next to the highlighted area* (not the "Reply at the bottom of the screen window). After you click the "Reply" button, a reply window is opened with the quote already inserted there. You can type your comment following the quote code. And then you can go back to the original post you are replying to and select (highlight) the next phrase you wish to reply to. After you click the "Reply" button, that also gets added to the reply that is in progress.

Its a pretty slick system.

(The procedure above refers to a PC screen. A phone screen likely will have some differences, but should be still doable.)


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Just a note to say that I edited the original post by Litsinger to enclose that Youtube comment in Quote brackets so as to make it more clear what the source of the comment was.


Thanks for cleaning up my mess, Graham. I appreciate it!

Russ


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Just curious...are any of you seeing chewed up mite parts in the sticky board below the SBB? This is the main indicator of mite mauling / mite biting that (when combined with the long brood breaks, also combined with VSH decapping infected cells) makes Primorsky bees so effective at dealing with the varroa.

They get a good shot at biting / allogrooming every mite in the hive at some point. I would expect a high correlation between broken mite parts in the sticky board and low mite counts in a subsequent mite wash.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

AR1 said:


> Can they be fed up early with sub and expand in time? Purely academic interest for me, but I'd think bees like that would be ideal for pollination, easy to get to expand right when you want them to. I am probably missing something due to unfamiliarity with the business/bees.


The scuttlebutt is that ,unlike Italians, it is difficult to stimulate brood production with pollen sub and syrup.I tried one summer during my dearth and they did build but not much.They do explode on the natural flow.

Coy Honey Farms supposedly brings Russians to almonds but they overwinter in Arkansas.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

kilocharlie said:


> Just curious...are any of you seeing chewed up mite parts in the sticky board below the SBB?


@kilocharlie: I've been looking at it for a few years with the wildcat mutts that are in my neighborhood. Here are a couple examples of my findings:



Litsinger said:


> I collected mites for evaluation.





Litsinger said:


> Had the opportunity to evaluate the mites this afternoon.





kilocharlie said:


> I would expect a high correlation between broken mite parts in the sticky board and low mite counts in a subsequent mite wash.


You might be right, but in my own personal experience I have not necessarily been able to draw straight lines between percentage of mite biting and overall mite population growth:



Litsinger said:


> Significant mite damage does not necessarily equate to low mite population growth.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

kilocharlie said:


> Just curious...are any of you seeing chewed up mite parts in the sticky board below the SBB?


be a couple weeks till the snow is gone and I can get in to look.
I will look now that you mentioned it.

GG


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Litsinger - Thank you. You are right - Mite biting *has to be combined* with a condition that leaves all the mites exposed for a while. If the time period is long enough and the mite biting expression is intense enough, there are no mites left to bite. This is why Primorsky / Siberian / "Russian" bees have survived for a hundred years with the varroa - a very extended, long brood break + intensive mite biting.

Decapping and pupa removal helps keep the mite load low in the early season, but the drones let the mite counts go up all at once - just enough that they build up in the late summer. If the bees depend on decapping and removal without mite biting, shot brood pattern will probably result. The bees population is going to go down about that time of year anyways, and the "mite bomb crash" is the probable result.

If there is ectopic mite biting going on full-time, the mites have a much harder time building up. With a brood break, the mites take a pretty good ding in the population instead of maxing out. Mid- August is usually a good time to whack the mites with a harsh IPM treatment such as formic acid, Amitraz, or repeated oxalic (which is perhaps a medium treatment rather than a harsh one).

The Siberian bees are also noted for absconding rather than swarming - or perhaps absconding AND swarming at the same time. Leaving brood behind is yet another effective way to reduce mite loads. The queens are late starters ( a good strategy in Siberia ), but they lay LOTS of eggs (compared to average Italians) once they get started, usually surpassing the Italians right before they take off, some Siberian queens exceeding 3,500 eggs per day average during their peak production, which does not hurt the bees vs. mites situation - more bees than mites, then move! Yet another reason that the Siberians are mite survivors.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

The Siberian bees' cumulative habits seem to "suggest" rather intensive attention paid by the beekeeper in the Spring time. They build up very rapidly then swarm / abscond before Mr. or Ms. Beekeeper is expecting it. Near-perfect timing on a hive split usually keeps them around. 

As with all honeybees, *mite monitoring* is A PRETTY STEENKIN' GOOD IDEA, HEY? Check out Randy Oliver's latest mite wash (now using Dawn dishwashing detergent instead of alcohol) on www.scientificbeekeeping.com

Plan ahead with those those Russians, have equipment ready to split before they go absconding off invading Ukraine.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

kilocharlie said:


> Mite biting *has to be combined* with a condition that leaves all the mites exposed for a while. If the time period is long enough and the mite biting expression is intense enough, there are no mites left to bite. This is why Primorsky / Siberian / "Russian" bees have survived for a hundred years with the varroa - a very extended, long brood break + intensive mite biting.


@kilocharlie: Thank you for your response- let me first begin by way of thanks for the education. I would have never considered the Primorsky Krai to be a part of Siberia- but it looks like it is included in the Southernmost extents of the area historically referred to as Siberia- that is new to me!

To your point, I was recently listening to a talk by Dr. Kefuss and he was referring to the work of Austrian Alois Wallner- who began a selection program based on mite biting in Carniolan stock back in the early 90's that persists to this day:






Bioimkerei Wallner


bioilogical bee keeping Alois Wallner



www.voralpenhonig.at





His selection assays are as follows:

*My value for the characteristic "killing varroa mites by the bees"*
_This value is measured daily on five days in September at the selected colonies. I investigate the injuries of the mites with a magnifying glass (20x enlargement) - usually there are injuries at the legs of the mites.

*Example*
Total mite fall-down of a colony in five days:

Total mite fall-down..............50 mites

25 mites of it with injuries result in a Varroa-Killer-Factor of 50%.

That means, that half of the natural mite fall down originates from bites of the bees, the remaining mites without injuries could further-increase until their natural death.

The more mites are killed by the bees in relation to the total fall-down the better is the Varroa-Killer-Factor._

He then describes how he equates the VKF with actual colony mite load as follows:

_This in turn contributes to an inhibited Varroa multiplication in the 10-month observation period. This Resistance property works year-round, so in winter, if no brood is present. The other known resistance factors only work with existing brood. Eg: The opening of infested brood cells, or the infertility of some Varroa... Another important factor of resistance is the low attractiveness of the brood to propagate the mites. This feature is recognizable in the mite, most mites fall off already in the first days. All resistance factors together cause an inhibited Varroa multiplication in the observation period of 10 months. 

The actual defoliation number (i.e. mite drop number following Formic Acid treatment) divided by the Ø daily mite decay before defoliation yields the Varroa-resistance Index (VRI) reading. The higher the varroa resistance of a colony, the lower the VR index. For example, my 5 breeding colonies have an average VRI of 20.45 points as shown, which means a very good Varroa resistance. A bee colony with a VRI reading of 100 or more has no natural varroa defense. The big advantage of this resistance calculation is also that the test colonies are not exposed to any unnecessary load from the Varroa mites. _


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

I have 4 hives on a pallet, 2 were treated, 2 were untreated (bad idea from the start). Lost one probably in mid-Jan, with little to no classic mite signs (poop etc), but likely a factor. Looking from the top, the next hive clockwise died a month later. Now this one is definitely struggling. On March 3, I witnessed a worker emerging with DWV (first I've seen in 3 years). There were also 2 workers with DWV on the bottom board they had not completely cleaned out, along with a marked queen getting balled just inside the entrance. 

It's possible they were balling their own failing queen, but we've had no drones and very few flying days to make another, and the current queen is laying viable worker eggs. Not sure if the balled queen originated next door and marched (or flew) in.?, Haven't checked the others for queen cells. Certainly 1 less 2021 queen somewhere in the apiary. 

Yesterday I saw a worker dragging out this larvae. While it's nice to have some hygiene going on, I hate that it's come to this on my watch. They have dwindled to a very small number, but continue to bring in pollen, and some reasonably healthy-looking nurses try to sort things out. It's supposed to be 13F in the morning. If that doesn't finish them I will decide what to do. Thoughts and suggestions welcome. 

Hygiene Struggle Bus


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Now this one is definitely struggling. On March 3, I witnessed a worker emerging with DWV (first I've seen in 3 years). There were also 2 workers with DWV on the bottom board they had not completely cleaned out, along with a marked queen getting balled just inside the entrance.


had this on one as well. 
I had a fair amount of mite drift late due to some warm late oct and early Nov weeks.
the first brood gets these, and depending on how many mites there are can have bad early effects.

somewhat a mite bomb symptom, weak hive gets robbed out during the last couple weeks of forage temps.
May or may not even be one of your hives.

Off with her head, she's a witch, look at all the bad luck this hive is having..

This is the big clue *emerging with DWV *they could not have just found these mites two weeks ago.
BYW IMO the queen CAN have the DWV virus, and in theory every egg has it at birth. did she have a mite on her or did you not get that good of a look?

GG


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> had this on one as well.
> I had a fair amount of mite drift late due to some warm late oct and early Nov weeks.
> the first brood gets these, and depending on how many mites there are can have bad early effects.
> 
> ...


While my vision is not great, I can say wholeheartedly there was no mite(s) on the queen.

Agreed on her fate. I think any drifting of mites was just kill this hive and crawl around on the pallet to the next one. Mind you I’m talking screened bottom boards on a run-of-the-mill pallet, not a standard bee pallet where the pallet surface is the solid bottom board.

I know folks think screens help with mites, but given how agile they are I’d say you only get the occasional dislodged or aged mite, and then only if you have something for it to stick to. In normal weather conditions I don’t think falling through a screened bottom would slow them down one bit.

With these bees going completely broodless for 2-3 months, any surviving mites would be jumping in the first few hundred cells. This would certainly strain the first round. But this one had Apivar last fall and while I pulled brood from it early in the season, it was left to buildup to size prior to winter. A hive 8’ away is pictured below. Several frames laid up in batches. 


__
http://instagr.am/p/CbAlHhUO2xQ/


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

kilocharlie said:


> The Siberian bees are also noted for absconding rather than swarming - or perhaps absconding AND swarming at the same time. Leaving brood behind is yet another effective way to reduce mite loads. The queens are late starters ( a good strategy in Siberia ), but they lay LOTS of eggs (compared to average Italians) once they get started, usually surpassing the Italians right before they take off, some Siberian queens exceeding 3,500 eggs per day average during their peak production, which does not hurt the bees vs. mites situation - more bees than mites, then move! Yet another reason that the Siberians are mite survivors.


Few points, kilocharlie:

you seem to be mixing up the A. mellefara and A. cerana (both populations overlap in the Primosky region - technically NOT Siberia) - the A. cerana is indeed very prone to abscond at even minimal disturbance - they are difficult to keep (the Primorsky A. mellifera are not absonding any more than any other cultured honey bee)
in fact, the Primorsky A. mellifera queens do NOT lay more than the Italians - they are of rather average fecundity (surely there are marginal cases in both directions)
BUT, for a short duration when they explode in spring - they may indeed overtake the Italians - but not over the entire brooding season (due to normally much shorter summer overall)
on average, the cultured Primorsky bees still require treatments, BUT they have demonstrated there are lines that indeed are resistant and even totally treatment-free (I posted on that not long ago)


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Now this one is definitely struggling. On March 3, I witnessed a worker emerging with DWV (first I've seen in 3 years). There were also 2 workers with DWV on the bottom board they had not completely cleaned out, along with a marked queen getting balled just inside the entrance.


Joe:

Just curious what led you to conclude that the emerged workers had DWV? Shriveled wings?

While it is hard to tell, watching the video I wondered if the open cells in the lower left are maybe indicative of a touch of EFB?

I've always thought of acute DWV symptoms to be more of a late season phenomenon- so makes me wonder why it would be pronounced in the first rounds of brood.

Last year I had a few late-winter collapses and the evidence was the same- too few healthy winter bees to maintain critical mass during initial brood rearing and subsequent stress-related brood issues.

In one case (reminiscent of your observation), I witnessed the queen and two handfuls of bees abscond on a warm morning in March.

I'll be curious to find out what materializes with this colony.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> Joe:
> 
> Just curious what led you to conclude that the emerged workers had DWV? Shriveled wings?
> 
> ...


I saw a worker trying to emerge. Her head was small, as was her thorax and remaining parts. Wings were maybe 1/2 their normal length and shriveled. She was struggling to make it out. I eventually helped her, then mercifully ended her struggle. There were 2 other examples dead (along with a few other bees) on the inside of an entrance reducer.

From the outside, you wouldn’t know anything is wrong. A few hundred foragers bringing in pollen.

I’ll keep an eye on them. If they turn it around quickly (truly the first chance they’ve had) then I may seek further counsel.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

General update: As I see pics of swarms in nearby Chattanooga and built-up colonies of friends in the valley I sit here hopeful. While winter has been long, and is not over yet here in the mountains, my bees remain on the precipice of population explosion. Most are still hanging out on 3-4 frames (March 25). 

Screened bottoms probably didn't help on early buildup after going down to "frugal" winter populations. Also rethinking taking tiny colonies into winter. I remember someone saying it's not worth the trouble and risk, as new queens can be easily made by large colonies coming out of winter, instead of trying to have laying queens more or less "banked" in tiny colonies over winter.

Almost had a weak moment a week ago thinking I could stuff 2-3 pkgs in some dead-outs, just to have some bulk bees when needed. Then I reminded myself that a month from now I'll be scrambling to have frames for nucs or other places to put excess mated queens. 

So to reiterate, if you can't deal with small colonies on April 1, this is not the breed. Some of my largest are in double-deeps (or similar) and are about to fill up 1 deep with bees, the smallest really need the heat/weather advantage and like any bee, a lot of nurses to raise babies. Even if they are healthy, they must raise only a few hundred bees at a time until warmer weather. 

Bear in mind, I didn't do much with internal pollen sub, and could have probably maintained larger brood all winter with this method. But I'm quite sure I'd be losing their chief their mite advantage if I made them brood constantly.

I will obviously equalize a bit here and there, and breed from the strongest. Just learning some stuff.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> General update: As I see pics of swarms in nearby Chattanooga and built-up colonies of friends in the valley I sit here hopeful. While winter has been long, and is not over yet here in the mountains, my bees remain on the precipice of population explosion. Most are still hanging out on 3-4 frames (March 25).
> 
> Screened bottoms probably didn't help on early buildup after going down to "frugal" winter populations. Also rethinking taking tiny colonies into winter. I remember someone saying it's not worth the trouble and risk, as new queens can be easily made by large colonies coming out of winter, instead of trying to have laying queens more or less "banked" in tiny colonies over winter.
> 
> ...


good observations.

so what if you had some broody Italians that you treated the crap out of for first round of NUCs and early brood to get started. starter and finisher hives, etc then by fall, all of the "queens you like" are in these NUCs for winter.

use the broody ones to boot strap spring. however then there could be a drone issue.
I have heard of putting on drone excluders at 3 in the after noon and using the bee vac at dusk.

or have the broody bees at a farther out yards 5-7 miles.

every bee has features, 
hope you can get stared soon,,, still pre willow pollen here. 

GG


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> good observations.
> 
> so what if you had some broody Italians that you treated the crap out of for first round of NUCs and early brood to get started. starter and finisher hives, etc then by fall, all of the "queens you like" are in these NUCs for winter.
> 
> ...


Yep, for sure. I would tend to keep brood machines away from this location.

I probably need to adjust my thinking more than anything. (Always 😂), and get used to mated queens first week of May, and not sooner.

With some real pollen mixed in I could start a few of these up in early January (larger hives), but they would definitely need treating. They are not easily fooled by pollen sub.

Dropping the biz aspect, I don’t think this whole setup bothers me. Like everyone, I’m trying to think of when to get nucs and queens ready to go out. Between being at a higher elevation and having long-broodless bees, it’s going to take longer.

I think I may do smaller batches of queens (10-15/wk) so that I can keep doing the stuff I like, without affecting the drone population much, and without having to find homes for 60 queens in a weekend. I have some queen hotels and a lot of EZ Nucs for babysitting, so trying to also stretch out the catch cycle to 21 days.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Joe bee
Are your screened BB open or sealed tight?
I remember a discussion with John Skinner from UTN in the early 2000's where he found delayed brood production in the early spring in colonies with open SBB.He also found delayed pkg expansion with the same.
Also,do you insulate on top or wrap?

(Sorry,too lazy to go back and read 85 posts)


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> Joe bee
> Are your screened BB open or sealed tight?
> I remember a discussion with John Skinner from UTN in the early 2000's where he found delayed brood production in the early spring in colonies with open SBB.He also found delayed pkg expansion with the same.
> Also,do you insulate on top or wrap?
> ...


Jack - I have a mix of 10-frame Langs and 6-frame polys. Almost all go into winter with at least 2 box height. If I were stripping them to 1 box I would definitely close up the bottoms, but as it is I do not. They are not very high from ground level, some on pallets, so not overly drafty, but still open.

I use a foil bubble-wrap and then a 1” blue board over the inner cover, under the lid/out cover. They start brooding in the top box and with adequate bees they keep the top toasty (with the insulation in place). I tape any seams I’ve broken open where boxes meet if I don’t think they’ve had time/temps to seal them, but I don’t wrap boxes (not usually a thing in mid-TN).

The polys have 4 round plugs about 3” each at the bottom and I keep 2 open on larger colonies and 1 on smaller. The tops have a lot of venting options but I generally close them except for this year when I allowed some colonies to exit from the top (stacked 2 colonies in one enclosure).

I will likely move in the direction of poly equipment. I recently caught a deal at a conference on a couple of 10-frame polys. While I don’t like styrofoam on general principles, this high-density stuff is a different animal. Obviously it wouldn’t stand up to a beating if I were collecting/flipping boxes a lot, but the insulation factor (without wrapping, etc) makes them attractive in my little setup.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> In reality any one mans opinion even if formed over many years is not very indicative on any topic that has that much variability in both the creature and the conditions. The old 7 blind men and the elephant effect.


Coming back over this I realized I didn't know the story. Great ancient illustration of perspective. Thanks! 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant





Litsinger said:


> I had a chance to watch the video- Dan certainly is a good spokesman for the program and makes a lot of compelling arguments for using Russian stock.
> 
> I was also encouraged to hear him say near the end of the program that he feels that genetic diversity is key- and not to get too balled up about maintaining genetic purity of the imported Russian stock.


As I wait for the Russians to crank up some brood, and wait, and wait, I went to see my brother's poor underprivileged, untreated-for-years hive (pic below). As far as early buildup in the same climate, they blow my largest hive out of the water. And this is a hive he was convinced had perished back in Jan-Feb. 

His swarm every April, so the genetics have shifted depending on which direction each year's queen flew in. They are buried in propolis, some of which is just from not being messed with for years. I have a few drones which emerged in the last few days, and I've seen zero flying yet. He had hundreds of drones, and the hive would have likely swarmed in the next 2 weeks. 

I lost several hives and nucs over the winter, with almost no correlation between treated and untreated colonies. So right now, today, this afternoon, I was thinking "Why am I married to Russians? This is the bee I want."

But this sort of goes back to @crofter 's lesson in perpective. I looked at this hive with layers of bees hanging everywhere (queen on inner cover) thinking I had rarely seen so many bees in a single box. But my most prolific hive is a mmd 10-frame that has had multiple frames of nurses shaken out of it (probably 2-3lbs) and is still full of bees, and will need intervention soon to hold back swarming. 

Just thinking thoughts. 

Also, I put the queen, a couple frames of brood, and a couple shakes of bees in an EZ Nuc. When I asked him where he wanted them he said, "Down at your house." He did not have to say it twice.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Also, I put the queen, a couple frames of brood, and a couple shakes of bees in an EZ Nuc.


Joe:

Good update- I must have missed a step- I assume you all found swarm cells and you left them behind when you pulled the queen?

So are you just thinking 'thoughts' as of now or are you seriously considering a move toward Tennessee Volunteer stock (sorry, Kentucky Wildcats is already spoken for).

How'd your Russian talk go? Still haven't seen it on YouTube.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> Joe:
> 
> Good update- I must have missed a step- I assume you all found swarm cells and you left them behind when you pulled the queen?
> 
> ...


Russ,

I didn't see cells. This pic was a deep/medium with all the foragers out. They were piled up anywhere there was room, 2-3 deep on frames with any extra bee space. It's a safe bet there were queen cells, but if not, there was multi-stage larvae. If he doesn't have a queen in a month, I'll take one of her offspring back over there. I think I'll graft from her early next week.

Admittedly, I'm less enamored with Russians after losing a fair number of them. In most cases it was totally me, in some, not so much. Basically, if I had a yard of Italians they would all be maxed out number-wise, but also would have probably starved a month ago if not propped up. It's just impatience on my part. It's like @Robert L. Gifford said early in this thread, Russians require a different management strategy. I'm just not used to them yet. 

Thinking back nostalgically, last winter seems like we had 3 snowflakes and 2 frosts and then sunny flying weather in Feb. In reality, I remember everyone I know saying they could not get a queen back from a mating flight before May to save their lives. There were cool snaps and a lot of rain in April, and many false starts. I know one guy with 150 hives that has done this for many years. He does walk away splits and had disastrous results in 2021 doing them too early. 

Hopefully I'll have all day tomorrow to set up some mating nucs, wax some frames, and generally play in bees. First batch of queens emerging late tomorrow through Sat night. Should perk up my mood. In mid-May I should be able to make up nucs as fast as I can drop queens in them. Then I will be singing Russian praises again.  

That said, I'm not totally married to them. If this experiment flops, I can change course. I remember @crofter 's post about whether success stems from good bees or good practices. Ideally, we would all possess both. 

On the talk, we postponed until the end of May. They will definitely do a Zoom, but I'm not sure they'll post the results. I'll send a link if it's made publicly available.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> There were cool snaps and a lot of rain in April, and many false starts.


Joe:

Thank you for your feedback- this is how I remember last Spring... I remember remarking, "Wow we've had a real Spring this year... " versus our typical - 'Second Winter' to 'Hell's Front Porch' (see attached) progression that recent years have been marked by.

It is here where it seems like the 'Carni-like' bees are best suited to our mixed and highly variable seasonal patterns. If nothing else, your Russians should stay in idle until pollen is inbound and then go gangbusters to take advantage of the relatively short but intense Spring flow that we have.

I do appreciate your posts- keep up the good work and best of success on your presentation. I will look forward to watching it.

Happy Easter to you and your family, my friend.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> Joe:
> 
> Thank you for your feedback- this is how I remember last Spring... I remember remarking, "Wow we've had a real Spring this year... " versus our typical - 'Second Winter' to 'Hell's Front Porch' (see attached) progression that recent years have been marked by.
> 
> ...


😂😂😂😂😂🐝😂😂😂😂😂

Russ,

I had never seen this chart, but TN has the same “pattern”. I particularly liked the “Fool’s Spring” as it reminded me of my predictions to my wife back in Feb that things were turning around.

I was thinking last night of the difference in stores of my brother’s heavily-populated hives and my own. His had a good deal of nectar, but in the top box (where I was pulling frames), there was very little capped honey. It was 33F here this morning. Today should be sunny, followed by 3 days of rain.

Last night I watched part of a series Randy Oliver had done at an OH meeting in 2015. He used the term “hand-to-mouth” for the state he and other beeks find their bees in areas with long periods with little forage. While these TN mutts are not totally that depleted, a 10-day stretch of cold/wet might put them in crisis mode. Most of mine are still small(er), but they still have fair weight. So yes, the “Carnie-like” bees have advantages for sure.

How are yours doing coming out of this real winter (beeks north of us laugh)? I very much look forward to finding out. 😃

Happy Easter to you too my friend. I sit here Friday and ponder the Son of God executed on a tree to buy our path back to God, then walking out of a grave of His own power. He loves even the worst of us (for I was one), and he is eager to grant peace in our hearts in the midst of chaos. He is loving, he is all-powerful, he is for us and not against us. He is no less in the woods and in the city streets than he is in the walls and boxes we try and put him in to explain him. He will speak to us in any way we are willing to listen. I expect to learn about his character (and my own) while handling bees today, not apart from his written word, but as a friend or father speaks to me. 

Happy Easter to all you guys and gals! 😃


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> How are yours doing coming out of this real winter (beeks north of us laugh)? I very much look forward to finding out. 😃


Joe:

Great post- we participated in a community Good Friday service last night and it was good to again be reminded of that old redemption story- never grows old.

The girls around here came through Winter really well- seems like they pretty well idled through most of it, though they did consume more stores this year versus last year.

I started seeing drones on the wing about two weeks ago and had the first swarm this week- so things are about normal to slightly ahead on that front.

Probably like you, we had a tremendous maple bloom that was cut short by the deep freeze.

I am now seeing the first spiderwort and clover blooms- it's fixin' to get serious around here.

Happy Easter, friend. He is risen!


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Just a general update on winding down our 3rd year with Russian bees. They came out swinging, performed consistently, and are due to brood down soon. However, we are expecting 90F this week, and I've begun feeding, so they may kick back into gear. 

I did 3 total OAV treatments on the treatment side of the yard (majority), with no particular plan, just getting used to @johno 's rig. This was spread out over 3 months and all during heavy brood. I still have a full 50-pack of Apivar that I should probably give to someone at the next bee club I visit, but honestly if I've lost confidence then I really don't want to be the guy that caused someone else's crash. Probably just do OAV a few times when they go broodless and actually check drop. Grateful to have maintained my refusal to get obsessed with the nasty boogers. 

Started confirming queen-rightness about 3 weeks ago and got pulled off after 5-6 hives. Need to go through and check for queens and see if any were superseded or swarmed. 

Started the season with around 14-15 colonies (of 20ish). These were split between 10-frame (dm or dd) and 6 over 6-frame poly nucs. We produced 30+ nucs and almost 30 queens (in addition to those placed in nucs), quit dealing with folks Aug 1, have 140-150lbs honey left (most from 2 hives). Also moving some colonies from queen hotels into the main yard, another project that stalled. 

There were 4 swarms of which I am aware (last check may reveal more), and 1 abscond from a mini-nuc that I knew would be gone if I didn't take out the queen, just didn't have time. 

Most of the money was severe brother-in-law deals as I made some contracts with my mouth that exhausted the rest of me.  But as Geddy Lee said in the 1982 song _Take Off_, .... "ten bucks is ten bucks".

Still fond of these bees, probably back off next spring. Trying to get back to a fun/work ratio that is sustainable. 

Love to hear how your varieties are doing!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> ... 6 over 6-frame poly nucs.


 Nice update, Joe. Sounds like you've had your hands full. How are the 6X6 poly's holding up for you? I am really tempted to buy 15 of these to overwinter resource colonies in, but I am concerned about carpenter ants and bee chewing. Knowing what you know now, would you invest in them?


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> Nice update, Joe. Sounds like you've had your hands full. How are the 6X6 poly's holding up for you? I am really tempted to buy 15 of these to overwinter resource colonies in, but I am concerned about carpenter ants and bee chewing. Knowing what you know now, would you invest in them?


Thanks Russ. Knowing what I know now, if bees remain my principal interest and not honey, I would likely buy nothing but Lyson 6-frame poly nucs. This is not to be considered an endorsement of all things poly, but I’ve had near-zero chewing damage.

Last year I bought 4-5 more to winter late queens, and this year I’ll probably do the same. I bought 2 10-frame BeeMax polys from Dadant at a conference, and I just put the contents of a queen hotel (5-6 frames, active single colony/queen) in each. I would not purchase more of these.

I’ll probably keep a few wooden 10-frames just for the purposes of having 20-50 deep frames under the same roof. It’s versatile and really cuts congestion/swarming, but I am not expanding the footprint of 10-frame wood here. In fact I’m contracting it.

Just too many advantages to poly in the mountains. And the Lysons are made of the 30-density poly, have numerous venting options, latches, and entrances that slide to open/close to any reduction and also can function as queen excluders.

They have a cavity in the top that houses a custom feeder. When not in use a propolis trap (plastic grid) goes over the topmost box. After they stop building comb you can use the space for sugar bricks and or protein, with plenty of room for sensors or gadgets. A crowded box will fill the space with comb in summer. I have 2 that I didn’t get to in time and just left it for winter resources. I’ll probably clean those tops out in spring. No different from leaving a feeder rim too long on anything.

Hope this is helpful. 😃🐝


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Hope this is helpful.


Great feedback, Joe. Very helpful. The Lyson units do appear to be the Swiss Army Knife of the poly offerings, so I am glad to read your positive vibes with these features.

Having had good results with overwintering 5 over 5's in wood nucs, I'm cautiously optimistic that the polys will work equally well for keeping resource colonies around.

When is Lankford going to make a video of your operation?


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