# Dead mouse in empty honey storage bucket



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

adrone said:


> Would anybody have any qualms about using this sanitized bucket to store honey?


Nope, I wouldn't.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

IMO
If your operation, however big or small, was inspected by the health department would a dead mouse found in one of your food storage container pass their
sanitary regulations for proper storage of food containers and utensils ?
&
What is the cost of a new food grade bucket and lid to avoid the issue altogether?

I wouldn't use it.


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## adrone (Jul 10, 2017)

clyderoad said:


> ... would a dead mouse found in one of your food storage container pass their
> sanitary regulations for proper storage of food containers and utensils ?


My clean buckets are stored in an empty closet in an empty guest bedroom. The mouse was an unprecedented event.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I'm not questioning your cleanliness, don't mean to offend and didn't intend for my post to come off that way.

I just disagree with the decision to use the bucket for honey storage for the reasons I stated.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Part of sanitation for any sort of food processing is attitude.

Sure, you can sanitize the bucket with chlorine bleach, and it would be "safe." But you are not comfortable with the idea or you would not have asked the question. Follow that instinct. Your instinct is telling you that it's not right and not the right mindset for food processing.

That bucket is perfect for using as an apiary tool bucket. You could even store dry grain or chow in it for feeding animals. Plenty of uses. Just not for processing food for human consumption.


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## adrone (Jul 10, 2017)

Thanks for the replies.

If you wouldn't use this honey for human consumption, would you feed it back to the bees now (with no honey supers on)?
And if so, would you harvest from those bees in the fall?

Would you instead wait til after fall harvest and feed this bucket to them for their winter stores?

In other words, what would you do with this 5 gallons of honey?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

So lets look at this situation a little differently ... 

Lets say that the dead mouse was found in a Maxant extractor. Does that mean that the extractor is no longer suitable for honey extraction and is now just '_yard art_'? 

:lookout:




adrone said:


> I tossed the mouse, washed the bucket, and sanitized it 4 separate times with a strong bleach/water solution, rinsing well between each soak, and dried the bucket in the sun.


" washed the bucket, and sanitized it 4 separate times with a strong bleach/water solution" seems adequate to me. But here is my suggestion to appease the doubters ... get a _new_ bucket and transfer the honey to the new bucket.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I'd feed it back to the bees for fall/winter brood/stores and look next spring that it was used up during brooding.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> So lets look at this situation a little differently ...
> 
> Lets say that the dead mouse was found in a Maxant extractor. Does that mean that the extractor is no longer suitable for honey extraction and is now just '_yard art_'?
> 
> ...


Wait, are you saying the honey bucket is stainless steel?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

My point is that neither the plastic bucket nor the extractor are materially affected by a dead mouse / mouse feces when that container has been carefully washed & sanitized 4 times, along with UV treatment. 

And do I need to mention that mice on occasion get into hives. Some of those times the mice die in the hive - and who knows _exactly_ what that mouse did before the mouse expired. Lets remember, bees move honey around, so even though there might not be honey supers on when the mouse expires, the beekeeper doesn't have a way of keeping track of where _ALL_ of that honey ends up.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Stainless CAN be properly sanitized, to the acceptance of any health inspector. If you get plastic buckets that hot, they melt.

The problem is ... the mouse. It got in. Yes, its water under the bridge now, but it has to bother you. What steps will keep the mice out?

I sympathize ... could tell you horror stories about mice in the garden shed and garage, dying en-masse when they fell into plastic trash cans, etc. Or the sneaker hole in the cabin by which they got in for a year, and we finally found it by accident (followed a plumbing conduit in).


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## adrone (Jul 10, 2017)

Nope, just a plastic food grade bucket. I sanitized it far beyond what the FDA and CDC sites say is required. (For contact areas and cutting boards, etc). 

My wife is still squeamish about the idea of a mouse touching the bucket.

I've learned that if I find a mouse in my Maxant, I sure won't mention it to her.

Also, If I buy some new food grade plastic buckets, I have to wonder if there aren't mice in the bucket factory, or the transport truck, or the big box store?

That's why I sanitize any new buckets I buy.


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## JTGaraas (Jun 7, 2014)

Be realistic about the process for providing food for human consumption - if the container is food-grade, there is an expectation that it can be used, or even reused, after proper cleaning/sanitation. The cost of food would be prohibitive if we mandated "new" and "never used" and/or "never touched" for every piece of equipment that comes in contact with what we later consume. Equipment in food-processing operations are constantly being cleaned, and sanitized, partly based on the assumption that no place is completely mice-proof or insect-free. It is unrealistic to believe that your breakfast cereal was made with grain never touched by some critter, whether mammal or insect. If clean, and properly sanitized - use it!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I agree with _JTGaraas_ above. But some might say that cereal is processed through some kind of heat processing which may also sterilize it to some degree.

But there are all kinds of fresh vegetables that come out of the field, and get little more than a sanitizing dip/spray (if that) before they reach the dinner plate.

Years ago I worked for a tomato farmer. I know for a fact that there are snakes, rabbits and mice in tomato fields. And those critters "_do their business_" without regard to whether there is a tomato right there. Said critters do die in the tomato fields as well. And fresh tomatoes generally do not get cooked before being consumed. At best the packer may do a sanitizing dip/spray as the tomatoes are being packaged.

I could even link FDA standards on "allowable filth" amounts for various food products.


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## adrone (Jul 10, 2017)

Phoebee said:


> The problem is ... the mouse. It got in. Yes, its water under the bridge now, but it has to bother you. What steps will keep the mice out?




Actually, we've never had mice or any other critters in the house. That's why I thought it was fine to store containers in it. Although the cats have left a dead mouse gift at the front porch occasionally. Maybe one escaped. I will discuss this issue with the cats.

But I do get your point.

ETA: I've been beekeeping for over 10 years, but never had a situation with a mouse before.


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## thesecurityeagle (Jun 21, 2016)

The extractor versus the bucket argument is a red herring. The difference is one vessel is intended to be "durable" where the other vessel is not. The hardness of stainless is superior to plastic when presented to abrasives. The act of cleaning a plastic bucket creates micro scratches which can collect debris and other adulterants. While you can scratch stainless you can also heat it to high enough temps to sterilize the surface. I would toss the bucket and buy a new one. When we are pulling supers I tell the kids "We are collecting food for people. Be mindful of where you set the supers". I have high standards, I am not saying you don't. I want to use the most sanitary methods of production as possible.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

"Micro scratches"?

"Cutting boards" that meet FDA and NSF standards are made out of _plastic_. For example ...
https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23751

Plastic items certainly can be sanitized for reuse. A cutting board wouldn't get FDA and NSF approval if that were not possible.

[hr] [/hr]
And let us note this thread is not a case of "what is the ideal" situation, the honey was _ALREADY_ put in the bucket in question. See post #1.



adrone said:


> Because I already did ...


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

Don't get too anal about it. If it were possible to detect all 'foreign' crud in our foods, it would probably make a buzzard on a crap wagon puke.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

I vote that the honey and the bucket are perfectly fine to use. I'd be more concerned about the bleach smell getting into the honey.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

When I posted nope I wouldn't, I meant nope, I wouldn't have any objection to using it as well as you sanitized it.


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## Jim Hancock (Dec 30, 2016)

I worked in enough food processing plants over the years to be able to say you have no idea what you're eating and where its been. Low content bug fruit is mixed with high content bug fruit to dilute to an acceptable bug level in the juice. What you don't know or think about won't bother you. That's the problem with finding the mouse - now you know. How many times did mice and bugs run over your equipment that you didn't see? Relax!


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

Jim Hancock said:


> I worked in enough food processing plants over the years to be able to say you have no idea what you're eating and where its been. Low content bug fruit is mixed with high content bug fruit to dilute to an acceptable bug level in the juice. What you don't know or think about won't bother you. That's the problem with finding the mouse - now you know. How many times did mice and bugs run over your equipment that you didn't see? Relax!



I think I just said the same thing in post #19, Jim, you just said it a bit more eloquently. :thumbsup:


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

How many customers would buy the honey from a beekeeper if he said he bottled it from a sanitized 5 gallon pail that formerly had a recently dead mouse and poop in?

Really, you can't throw one plastic pail away?? They are cheap from a baker. Listen to your wife.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I store all of my buckets, hundreds of them, upside down. Maybe you should too.

I would have done what you did, only I wouldn't have mentioned anything about the mouse.


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## JTGaraas (Jun 7, 2014)

Bee Bliss, from my perspective, the issue does not involve money at all, only health and safety. It is irrational to believe that a properly cleaned and sanitized food-grade pail cannot be used for honey storage. Sensitivities should not over-rule science. Personally, a free food-grade pail from a bakery would never be used for honey storage until it was cleaned and sanitized by me - you never know what happened to that pail after it was emptied. Was ithe pail put in the alley because the storage room was full? Did the baker certify, in writing, that the pail was only used once? If properly cleaned and sanitized, you do not care it the baker lies, or if he mishandled the pail. Recycling is admirable, but discarding the pail due to mental reservation or sensitivities is wasteful.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Jim Hancock said:


> I worked in enough food processing plants over the years to be able to say you have no idea what you're eating and where its been. Low content bug fruit is mixed with high content bug fruit to dilute to an acceptable bug level in the juice. What you don't know or think about won't bother you. That's the problem with finding the mouse - now you know. How many times did mice and bugs run over your equipment that you didn't see? Relax!


Amen, me too. There's plenty of plastic in commercial processing plants and I guarantee that much of it has mouse poop on it at some time. 

How many buckets do you think get mice in them before they are purchased? 

Anybody ever have a drop of sweat fall into a bucket of honey?


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## Gumpy (Mar 30, 2016)

adrone said:


> Also, If I buy some new food grade plastic buckets, I have to wonder if there aren't mice in the bucket factory, or the transport truck, or the big box store?
> 
> That's why I sanitize any new buckets I buy.


^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
This!

You don't know the history of any bucket you buy, except from the point it is in your possession. Unless you own a bucket factory, you can't control it. There's no guarantees that the bucket didn't have mice in it already. Therefore, you sanitize it prior to use, and you sanitize if prior to storage, and you sanitize it again prior to use. Sanitize is the operative word here. You did that. Four times. It's safe to use. Just don't mention it and nobody else will have a problem with it.


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## adrone (Jul 10, 2017)

To ease all of your minds, this honey wasn't for sale - it was for personal use for the wife and grown kids. (Kids are fine with it, wife not so much). This all began as a household discussion. 

But that really shouldn't make any difference as to the point of the question. 

It also wasn't a question of "cheap". I simply thought that if I found an animal in my pool, I would chlorine shock. In my water tank, I would chlorine flush. I wouldn't throw either of those away (nor do I throw away my cutting board) - I clean and sanitize. So I followed my instinct - which was to clean and sanitize. For this bucket - way more than I really thought necessary or would normally do (4X + UV light) - but just to be sure. (Wife agrees rationally -- I think it's just the "idea"). If I had it to do again, I would of course toss the bucket just to avoid the hassle - but now it's done. 

But the discussion has been really interesting, because if some think plastic really can't be sanitized then it would follow that we (or they anyway) really shouldn't be using plastic buckets at all. As I mentioned earlier, how do I know if a mouse (dead or alive) or worse wasn't at one time in a food grade bucket before I buy it in a big box store? Or at any other time.

As for the Maxant question - I suppose you could "sterilize" it - but I doubt anyone ever has. Personally, I would still think a good wash and sanitizing with bleach water solution would do the trick. 

Yes Mark, upside down! Lesson learned. 

JTGarrass - just saw your post. Yes, that's how I was thinking. I wash and sanitize the buckets before I use them in any case.

Gumpy - ditto


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