# My foundationless, dry sugar and bait hives results



## BeePuncher (May 25, 2007)

Greetings all, last spring I sought advice (like so many) on trying some foundationless frames and it has been a smashing success. I selected ten colonies and here's what happened:

-I fed in two empty frames per colony, as is - i.e. no strips or playing around with the wedge bar etc. since they were introduced in between drawn frames; they were drawn so fast I did it again, removing the foundationless out completely instead of moving them over to satisfy drone requirements.

Yes, most of the first ones were drone comb, capped. Perfect for me, I got the bonus of some mite trapping, froze them and reintroduced them into my honey supers later to be chewed out and filled with honey. Most of my honey supers are, for better or worse, deeps - you can't pass up a deal of a barn full of hardly used bee equipment for six hundred bucks (about 150 deeps, some new, lightly used, plus tons of other stuff, 70 miller feeders, 35 gallon stainless tank, piles of inner covers, outer covers, etc. etc.) I did find that the second go around they drew worker comb with some drone incorporated to satisfy their drone requirements

- some frames were half worker half drone comb, so they again got removed for honey supers. 

- the construction varied: some were braced every few inches on the bottom, some not. Some had alot of propolis beautifully incorporated for reinforcing, some not. In any case they defied my fears of fragility: no sagging, and I could work them the usual way (love to bang the frame ear in front of the hive to remove bees or give them that snap with the wrists - even the unbraced ones could handle it, and the only difference was in how to flip over unbraced frames for viewing, all the advice in this forum was very helpful! For next year's round I will use fishing line for some peace of mind however.

I did put some swarms to work drawing out 4.9 mm starter strips and the results were all over the place, some drew it perfectly to size, others went back to their normal size, while other went somewhere in between. I am in eastern Ontario and think that the ideal size might be around 5.0. Indeed I think Michael Bush pointed that out in reply to a posting in the spring.

- started extracting some of the deep honey foundationless frames, no problems yet. I do have an extractor that has the cages, so that seems like a bit of insurance. One mishap: when removing a deep honey super with the foundationless I gave a sharp downward snap to shake out any bees before going on escape boards - two frames let the comb go and needless to say their was a rather hurried harvesting of comb honey! Kind of dumb really, to heavy to have the same result as shaking out a medium super. Just a habit I should break!

- For the sake of experimentation I put some colonies to work drawing out conventional wax foundation, and while they did a good job I did not find any measurable difference in speed, certainly not one that would justify the waste of money and time and potential contamination issues involved with it. I much prefer having newly drawn foundationless frames that I know have no residues in it. 

- now here's what shocked me the most: they drew tons of frames during the spring dearth on dry sugar in miller feeders...I have over the years found that dry sugar has worked really well for me, despite the usual conventions. An old timer got me doing this, his opinion is that they can liquify it enough fairly easily since hive moisture is always an issue - I don't know how efficient such a process could be but it has been working for me. Of course I don't object to throwing some water on top to make a thick syrup if I have some handy in the beeyard, but I don't bother with the stovetop syrup making anymore, nor with correct ratios. I have found that timing of feeding is far more important than water/sugar numbers. I would love to hear other opinions/experiences. 

- Bait hives: all the advice here is spot on - lemongrass oil, a frame of old brood comb with a few empty ones and a good location! I set out eight bait hives to experiment and all but one got taken over. One yielded three swarms in the same spot, beside a huge old growth soft maple swamp. Big trees, big cavities I suppose! None of the baithives were higher than five feet off the ground either.

-Of course we all know how much swarms love to draw comb, and they were put to working drawing many foundationless frames, and they will not fool around with making drone comb either - straight to the worker comb for the sake of survival! Lots of late swarms this year - middle of August were the last two, and this worked out too since the established colonies slowdown on comb building rather dramatically.

Final comment: I wish I had been more scientific in keeping track of specifics, but I am seventy-five miles away from them and with my current life situation time was precious. Next year the clipboard comes out! Thank you all for the great advice.


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## BoBn (Jul 7, 2008)

BeePuncher said:


> - now here's what shocked me the most: they drew tons of frames during the spring dearth on dry sugar in miller feeders..


Cool. It looks like you found a way to save a ton of work. Thanks.
I had the same experience with foundationless frames. They work well for me.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

BeePuncher . . .
Thanx for the report!


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

I have 3 hives that need more stores, I have been reading about feeding dry sugar starting in December. Is there some reason to wait until December? I intend to have a flat tray on top of the frames where the dry sugar will be available for the bees, I intend to have a "shim" so there will be room for the bees to have access to the sugar.

Do I need to mix anything with this sugar?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do I need to mix anything with this sugar? 

A little water to get it to clump up and to get them to recognize it as food, keeps them from hauling it out for trash. You can put it on now if you like.


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

I am planning to use a lid from a 5 gal bucket, I thought I would start with 1 cup of sugar. Michael suggests making into a thick slurry, do I possibly add some lemon juice to this mix? There should be room for some "Honey B Healthy", would this be good to start with or does it need to be added towards spring? (I have the recipe that Michael posted from the archives)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am planning to use a lid from a 5 gal bucket, I thought I would start with 1 cup of sugar.

I start with about 30 pounds of sugar...

> Michael suggests making into a thick slurry

No, I don't. I suggest getting some parts of it damp to wet so they will recognize it as feed and so it clumps up so they don't haul it out. It is not a slurry at all. Most is still dry and not even clumped but the moisture will spread.

>, do I possibly add some lemon juice to this mix?

I wouldn't.

> There should be room for some "Honey B Healthy", would this be good to start with or does it need to be added towards spring? (I have the recipe that Michael posted from the archives)

I wouldn't.


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

“Honey Bee Healthy” Recipe
5 cups water
2 1/2 pounds of sugar
15 drops each of spearmint and lemongrass oils
1/8 teaspoon lecithin granules 
You have to dissolve the granules in very hot (almost boiling) water and let it cool prior to incorporating the oils into the mixture. The lecithin is an emulsifier and helps disperse the oils in the water mixture. This is the standard recipe according to a website article I read about using essential oils, and these are the two oils used in the HBH. I use less of the oils than the recipe calls for since I am feeding fairly heavily at this time, but for a spring or fall treatment, I will follow these measurements. 

Is the above recipe blended down or "used as is".

**************************************************
I didn't realize "Honey Bee Healthy" is so expensive, 

At one point you sprayed this mix on your (plastic) frames. You are now letting the bees draw natural comb?

1 qt of Walter B Kelley "Honey B Healthy" makes 23 gal. according to their catalog.

Myron Denny
Glencoe, Okla


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