# Few questions on my splits please, need advice



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Don't worry about the dearth right now.
You're in FL so there is always something for the bees.
Feed them patty subs when things slow down.
Your main goal now is to even out the hives so that the
bee strength is balance. For better understanding, I will now
label your split hive# 1 as A, hive #2 as B, and hive #3 as C.
Since I don't know how your nucs are arranged, I can only
give some examples of my own. Assuming that they all are line
up facing the same direction on a hive stand, I would take hive C (split #3)
away from the stand the day before the sunset. Move hive A (split #1) into hive C (split #3)'s position. And hive C into hive A's position on the bee stand. This is call a hive position swap. 

What will happen here after the position swap, on the next day the foragers from hive A will go into hive C. The foragers from hive C will go into hive A. Instantly the bee population should boost up a bit. 
And what to do with hive C (split #3)? It is queen less now so the chances of developing a LWs later on is very high. You cannot reuse this hive for another QC. I recommend to combine with hive A later on, frames and all. Remember to use the proper introduction method to avoid killing the queen in hive A. 
Hive B looks like it is going to have some LWs. Hopefully the virgin should be mated and
start laying soon. Dealing with the LWs situation is another story later on. Hope not!


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I myself might give hive 3 a frame with eggs from your strongest hive. They would draw queen cells if needed, and if not, it will be a boost to the hive. 

I might let hive 1 and 2 stay as they are for a week and re-evaluate. Sometimes a freshly mated queen will lay multi eggs, she may clear up. If she does not, then pinch her and give that hive 2 a frame of eggs also.

I would not give hive 1 a feeder, as they can use what they have raising brood in order to clear out some comb for laying. As current brood emerges, she'll have room to lay more, and they'll use the stores to feed them, or may start drawing more wax.

Keep in mind, it takes enough of a balance of ages of populations in a hive in order to raise brood and draw wax. It may take a little time for things to get rolling.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

In the current situation with hive #3, after 21 days without a queen, going
another round of QC will put this hive almost 2 months behind. Might as well
give it a mated queen for a possible solution. My experience with this type of
a situation was that they will develop the LWs (laying workers) later on even
with the virgin running around. And it will be an ugly scene with more LWs that
you have to shake out eventually in a more populous hive. You might be lucky that
the virgin may get mated. But the LWs wasn't too favorable to their new queen that I've
found out. Is that what you like to see later on?
Another way to keep hive #3 is to use 3 frames of bees from another strong hive. So basically you
are starting with some fresh frames of bees into a nuc hive. The older bees with frames and all, in the original hive #3 you have to combine with a queen right hive with the proper bee introduction method. With the now new frames of
bees in hive #3, you can either introduce a QC or a frame of bees with eggs/larvae to make some QCs. The existing foragers
in hive #3 will take good care of feeding the hive while allowing the QCs to develop. Waiting almost 2 months for
a potential mated queen is too risky on this bee adventure!


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Thanks, all good info. Since its been 3 weeks, I assume I should give it another week just in case:

The queen in hive 2 gets right and

Hoping that there is a queen somewhere in hive 3. For all I know she was on a mating flight. It had 3 QC in it so there should be a queen somewhere. 

Also, the frame with multiple eggs per cell, what should I do with it? Some cells have only one egg. Also, I don't know if it's a LW or not as all of the eggs were more or less center bottom of the cell. I thought LWs placed the eggs on the sides of the cells?


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

RayMarler said:


> I myself might give hive 3 a frame with eggs from your strongest hive. They would draw queen cells if needed, and if not, it will be a boost to the hive.
> 
> Keep in mind, it takes enough of a balance of ages of populations in a hive in order to raise brood and draw wax. It may take a little time for things to get rolling.


I don't have 3 frames, I might be able to pull together 2, I only have 1 really good hive right now.

So older bees don't produce wax? Pretty much all of the capped brood is hatched.

Any suggestions on where to buy an emergency queen if I have to?


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Duplicate post.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Coach62 said:


> I don't have 3 frames, I might be able to pull together 2, I only have 1 really good hive right now...


No, I meant give hive #3 a single frame of eggs as insurance as to whether there is a queen in there or not. I understand you don't have much in the way of resources at the moment. Mostly just let all three hives ride for a week and inspect to re-evaluate.

Bill Carpenter at Carpenter's Apiaries in FL might have some queens, I just received a couple from him.
http://www.carpentersapiaries.com/Pages/default.aspx


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Thanks Ray, I emailed him. Hopefully he has a queen, maybe even a Nuc. 

FYI, I looked at hive 2 again today, the one with the 2-4 eggs per cell. I *THINK* the queen has it right now, there were numerous cells with only one egg, and just a few with 2 eggs.

Hive 3 still has no evidence of any queen at all. Pretty sure they're queenless. I assume it's too late to add a frame of eggs to allow them to requeen at this point.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Good, sounds like hive two is figuring it out, it should be fine. 
Why would you say it's too late for adding a frame of eggs to the hive number three? Adding a frame of eggs, before they go laying worker, is a good way to test to see if a queen is in there or not. If she's there, no queen cells started, if not, they'll start queen cells. Works most of the time if they not laying worker hive yet. If it is queenless, it's a way to keep it from turning into laying worker by giving a frame of eggs. And a frame of eggs taken from a stronger hive does not set it back much as not much feeding and time has been spent on it by the bees yet.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

So it's not too late? I just assumed it was too late to start from another queen cell. I'm getting near 4 weeks without a queen and the workers live about 6 weeks. Population level has dropped noticeably. I found some SHB in there today so I'm worried about them taking over the hive. I'll covert it to a screened bottom board as soon as I get some time.

If I can buy a mated queen, I'll go that route, if not I'll try the frames of eggs.

Question - can I include the nurse bees on the frame, or do they have to be shaken off? The good hive I have is completely unrelated to the split.

Thanks again, I really do appreciate the help.

PS - I emailed Carpenters, hopefully they can help out.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes, it's getting pretty late for that hive. Adding a frame of eggs may help, at least to keep it from becoming laying worker by the time your ordered queen comes. If you can manage to spare a frame of sealed brood with it, it would be much better, and yes you can leave the bees on the frames, so long as the queen from the hive is not on the frames. This one is getting so long in the tooth that it may be better to shake it out and make a split in a month or two down the road. You are the one that has to make that judgement call. The problem is in the timing, 21 days ago... there might be a queen in there ready to mate or lay by now, the timing is close enough. That's why i mentioned adding just a frame of eggs. It will tell the story of what's there, and help tide the hive over to time when your carpenter queen comes.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Good news, Carpenter has queens. He just emailed me. Thanks a ton for the help. 

I've never been thrilled with the genetics of these bees so a queen with different genes is the way I'd rather go. I think I'll go ahead and order the queen and do as you say with the frame of eggs and brood.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Sounds good to me. I think Bill Carpenter has the line of bees that are ankle biter mite resistant. I got two here myself last week, trying to get a more mite resistant line of bees going here. Hope they do well for you.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You don't always have to order a new queen if you don't want to spend
the money. That is why we make the splits in the first place to see whatever
genetics are available out there, locally. You never know what else is there until
the daughters started to lay and the young bees emerged. I once used the Cordovan 
to graft and her daughters mated with the local carnis drones. Since the Cordovan carry
the recessive genes the carnis color dominated my hives overall but still retained some of
the Italians color here. Then I bought one queen that carry the allogrooming behaviors last
Autumn. The Russians x Italians from this queen has fully incorporated into my bee program here.
Then tomorrow I will have a vsh Italians coming. Overall, I'm enhancing my mite fighting power over
time. It would be interesting to put some angle biting bees here also. But that will come later after
the evaluation of the vsh genetics, locally. Continue to graft more queens to find the mite fighting bees.
After all, beekeeping is all local so don't forget what else is out there before bringing in more different
genetics from the outside source.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

That's the plan. I'd like to get a few different queens in here to see which genetics I want to stay with. My new Nuc, I really like her genetics. She has the hive running very well. 

2 of my 3 splits appear to be queenright, so I guess 2/3 ain't too bad for a total noob. The queen is $30, plus I don't have the time to pick it up so another $30 for shipping. The way I'm looking at it is $60 is cheaper than a Nuc or package.

Thanks to both of you for your help.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

I opened the hive to put in a frame of eggs to capped brood. Hive was making a monotone, loud buzzing noise. Quieted down almost instantly when I put the eggs and brood in.

Glad you reminded me to look for the queen, first frame I grabbed to move over - sure enough she was there. Man she's huge, love that queen.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

The hive was roaring and when you put in frame with eggs they immediately quieted down. Sounds like they were queenless with no resources to make a queen. As you gave them resources, now they are happy. Since they were roaring, they were not laying worker yet so that's good too. Now you can destroy all queen cells and give the new queen when it arrives. Good luck to you!


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Yes, they are queenless and had no resources to make a queen, until now. I was very surprised, but there was no laying worker yet. 

I was reading Michael Bush's website earlier. He has a lengthy explanation about that same thing, how it's the lack of brood that prompts a laying worker, not the lack of a queen. Very interesting stuff. 

Thanks again for all the help, you guys helped a ton.

PS - that Bill Carpenter is a helluva nice guy. He was telling me how he lost his wife this past winter.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Coach,
Not all queens emerge and lay quickly, some are a little slow, and, you still may or may not have a queen in there. Let us all know how it works out.


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