# uncapping for 100 hives



## AstroBee

I'm not commercial, but am running about 60 colonies now and hope to get to about 100 within a year. Currently I do all the honey processing myself, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I'd like to bring some level of automation to the uncapping problem, which as of now is the tall pole within the process. It seems that the Maxant chain uncapper might be a potential solution to this bottleneck. I'd like to hear from others the pros and cons of automation in uncapping and any particular comments about Maxant's chain uncapper. 

My understanding of the chain uncapper is that it will put a lot of small wax particles into the honey, which will pose issues with screening the honey. I guess most people using such a process use a settling tank to allow the wax to float off and get processed separately. I have a 40 gallon jacketed tank that I think I could use as a settling tank. I realize that 40 gallons will then become the bottleneck, but as a one man operation, I'd be happy with 40 gallons per day. 

I welcome any comments.


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## Roland

An uncapper is nice, but does not generate revenue, just saves you time. I would buy a GOOD electric knife, insurance on your other hand, and save the money to get a better uncapper. Do it right the first time.

Crazy Roland


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## Colobee

A chain uncapper, fed into a cappings spinner, drained into a heated, water jacketed, settling tank (sump) works rather well, although the cappings tend to become drenched in honey all too soon. I have all Maxant, but have never incorporated my chain uncapper (a mentor did).

'Hot knife gets really old with 60-75 hives and 2-300 supers. Cappings get drenched, all the same. 

Nice concept, though...If I were building UP, I might dust the uncapper off...


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## Ian

I think your in line for a silver queen, my first thought was a chain uncapper.


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## RAK

Get the Silver queen. It will pay off...


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## chillardbee

Learn how to use an uncapping plane will be a heck of a lot cheaper and just about as fast as a chain uncapper. Maxant sells them and it's what I use. 

In 1992 we had 110+ hives and I extracted 28,000+ pounds using a uncapping plane and a ten frame radial.


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## jim lyon

AstroBee said:


> I'm not commercial, but am running about 60 colonies now and hope to get to about 100 within a year.
> I welcome any comments.


I grew up working in our families 5,000 hive operation in an extracting room manned by 3 good people, 2 of them with a Master uncapping knife in hand and the third running 2 or 3 50 frame radial extractors. Cappings were uncapped directly into a modified extractor with a bottom in it and perforated holes around the outside of the reel. We typically extracted about 2 drums (1,300 lbs.) per hour if the boxes were full. Hard work? Yes, but imminently doable. Handling a hot uncapping knife is a bit of a lost art form. Quiet, neat, no broken frames, no missed cappings, no worries about brood getting uncapped, no adjustments or machinery to break down and ahh the aroma.


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## Jim 134

This may do a good job for you if you not going over a 100 hive or so.

http://youtu.be/gL7Eoo5OIrU

looks like a
Kelley's Electric Vibrating Knife with a Maxant capping spinner 

http://www.pacificcrestapiaries.com/id33.html

WAX AND HONEY DROPS DOWN INTO WAX MELTER 


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Jim 134

This may do a good job for you if you not going over a 100 hive or so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiLQeSs-9Zg



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## AstroBee

Thanks for the valuable feedback. 

So, can I correctly interpreted the feedback as a vote of lack of confidence in the Maxant chain uncapper? The videos that I've seen make a good impression, and its priced well below the silver queen unit. The silver queen unit seems like a great machine but, well above my price range. If my interpretation is correct, then would someone care to provide specific feedback on why the Maxant is not recommended?


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## jim lyon

I really wish you folks could have seen a well run hand uncapping honey house in action. I haven't found anything more than a few lame videos demonstrating hand uncapping to the tune of well over a minute per frame when a skilled person with properly heated knife can actually do a frame in about 20 seconds INCLUDING the top and bottom bar, something no uncapping machine is capable of doing. 
Yes, we eventually made the switchover to an uncapping machine. Primarily because an unskilled worker can be quickly trained to do the job at 3 times the speed. Make no mistake about it, though. No machine can do the job as well or as neatly as it can be done by hand. 
Sorry if I come off as an old curmudgeon espousing the old ways but as I said, I guess you just need to see and experience it in action to fully understand.
A silver queen? If that's your price range, then that's a horse of a different color. It will do around a box per minute and is a machine fully capable of doing the job for several thousand hives and is capable of extracting the honey from a hundred hives in about a day. If you are thinking of putting one in then bear in mind that it can uncap at least as fast as 2, 50 frame radials can extract. We ran 4, 50's behind ours for quite a few years.


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## My-smokepole

Jim it sounds like a great project for you. 
David


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## Ian

AstroBee said:


> why the Maxant is not recommended?


oh it will do the trick for you, 
they are just a little cumbersome, loud, messy, but quick and does a good job.


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## AstroBee

jim lyon said:


> I really wish you folks could have seen a well run hand uncapping honey house in action. I haven't found anything more than a few lame videos demonstrating hand uncapping to the tune of well over a minute per frame when a skilled person with properly heated knife can actually do a frame in about 20 seconds INCLUDING the top and bottom bar, something no uncapping machine is capable of doing.
> Yes, we eventually made the switchover to an uncapping machine. Primarily because an unskilled worker can be quickly trained to do the job at 3 times the speed. Make no mistake about it, though. No machine can do the job as well or as neatly as it can be done by hand.
> Sorry if I come off as an old curmudgeon espousing the old ways but as I said, I guess you just need to see and experience it in action to fully understand.
> A silver queen? If that's your price range, then that's a horse of a different color. It will do around a box per minute and is a machine fully capable of doing the job for several thousand hives and is capable of extracting the honey from a hundred hives in about a day. If you are thinking of putting one in then bear in mind that it can uncap at least as fast as 2, 50 frame radials can extract. We ran 4, 50's behind ours for quite a few years.


Jim,

I do really appreciate your input. Some of the constraints I'm facing is that I'm a one man operation. I do not plan to bring in extra help, so I'm looking for a solution with this constraint in mind. Regarding the silver queen, I realize that not only is it way beyond my current and projected needs, it is outside of my budget. If I could do 20 seconds per frame, that is something I would consider. However, everyone I've seen using a hot knife is no faster than I am with a good cold knife. In fact, I invited a 40 year veteran beekeeper to my facility to extract where we did side-by-side uncapping. He used his favorite hot knife and I used a cold knife. I was about 30% faster than he was, but still not fast enough for my liking.


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## jim lyon

AstroBee said:


> In fact, I invited a 40 year veteran beekeeper to my facility to extract where we did side-by-side uncapping. He used his favorite hot knife and I used a cold knife. I was about 30% faster than he was, but still not fast enough for my liking.


Not trying to in any way be rude but I am really having trouble with the visual picture of a 40 year veteran with a heated knife getting outpaced by someone wielding a cold knife. Hand uncapping was something of a legacy in our family with the standard always being that you were expected to do 150 to 200 medium boxes per day and we did it daily for weeks on end.
A Master uncapping knife has a touchy thermostat. They need to be turned high enough to do the job when in continuously use but NEVER left "dry" for long or they can be burned out. When properly adjusted it is quite literally like a hot knife through butter. A single swath through a medium frame should be no more than 3 to 4 seconds per side another 5 to 10 seconds on the top and bottom bars and the rest of the time is devoted to removing the frames, scraping the box and setting the uncapped frame on a holding rack or directly in the extractor. A fourth person in the extracting room could speed things quite a bit by relieving the uncapper a from the work of scraping boxes and carting in more stacks of honey. Deeps take a bit longer though it is quite possible to cut them in a single swath as well. As I said, I guess you just need to see it in action to fully understand. The fact that you are working alone makes it somewhat of a moot point, though, as a hot knife should never be left unattended for more than a minute or so, which means constantly unplugging and reheating which isn't a good option. 
Sorry, I disrupted your thread, I'll let it die. Best of luck.


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## Ian

I know a guy running 600 hives who hired a few students and gave them scratching forks... work well as long as he had the students to work


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## Haraga

What about Kelly's electric vibrating knife. Would that work for you? Maybe someone on here has some experience with one.


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## beeware10

use an uncapping plane and put your money into handling cappings as this will be your bottleneck.


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## AstroBee

Haraga said:


> What about Kelly's electric vibrating knife.


That's what Jim_134 posted above. I'd like to hear more from others who have used such a system.


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## AstroBee

beeware10 said:


> use an uncapping plane and put your money into handling cappings as this will be your bottleneck.


No personal experience, but I'd have to say that the reviews on the uncapping planes are all over the map. Many claim to have used it once or twice and given up. What brand plane are you using?


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## AstroBee

jim lyon said:


> Not trying to in any way be rude


Not rude in anyway nor have you disrupted this thread - you're graciously sharing your experience. Thank you! 

The veteran I was working with really does have 40 years experience, but at a hobbyist/sideline level. Your comments suggest that despite his experience he was not very proficient with the tool. I will say that he was fiddling quite a bit with the temperature control on his knife, which really slowed him down. Could have been that I was kicking his butt so badly  During this session, he let me try his hot knife and I was not totally taken with the experience and quickly returned to my cold knife. I realize that not all hot knives are of equal quality, and that you called out the "Master uncapping knife", but do you know of a current vendor that offers a high quality knife similar to what you are referencing?


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## lupester

Haraga said:


> What about Kelly's electric vibrating knife. Would that work for you? Maybe someone on here has some experience with one.


We just bought one and should be extracting our 1st large honey flow at the end of June. Let you know our 1st experiences.


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## grozzie2

lupester said:


> We just bought one and should be extracting our 1st large honey flow at the end of June. Let you know our 1st experiences.


Please post back to this thread when you have a result. It's impossible to follow all threads, and watch for new ones on various subjects. Uncapping isn't going to be a big issue for us this year, but it's going to start to be an issue by next summer. My thoughts differ from a lot of folks here, if I'm going to put money into uncapping, I'd rather have a capital asset with resale value, than pour similar dollars into a payroll, which ends up gone once the cheques are cashed.


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## AstroBee

lupester said:


> We just bought one and should be extracting our 1st large honey flow at the end of June. Let you know our 1st experiences.


Great. Please post your impressions here. It would be awesome if you could take a video of your process and post it here!! There are a few videos out there, but it would be great to see one from an active beesource member.


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## Roland

I can support Mr. Lyon. The modern uncapping knife is a joke compared to what was available in the 60's. I can remember one that had 2 heat ranges, and a "nesting" pad. When on the pad, it was on simmer, but when you picked it up, it was all business. Yes, it did alot better job than the uncapping machine, but was harder on the individual. 

Crazy Roland


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## Colobee

The chain upcapper I saw in action was very functional. The gentleman had a very nice setup (direct mounted over a cappings spinner), and ran it that way for years.

If I were to ever get back up to around 100 hives, mine would probably go into the loop. As soon as the basket got an initial layer of cappings, the spinner would start removing many of the fine wax particles which you were concerned about. ( I see that hand uncapping into the spinner).

'Just didn't want my comments to be misconstrued as negative. I've almost always enjoyed hand upcapping. My chain uncapper came as part of a package deal, and I just never got large enough to want or need to use it. It _would _be one more piece of equipment to maintain, clean and sterilize each year. I should probably just sell mine, as I have no plans to ever get that big again.


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## AstroBee

Roland said:


> compared to what was available in the 60's.


So nobody is making good quality knifes these days?


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## zhiv9

I am also looking for uncapping for 100 hives and have been looking for the Maxant Uncapper-Spinner combo unit. You can see it on this page:

http://www.maxantindustries.com/uncapping.html

It sounds like what Colobee has been talking about. The Silver Queen is about the same price, but then you still need an auger or something for the capping and a spinner to keep up.

I know I could uncap by hand, but I work another full-time job, so my time is a very limited resource.


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## AstroBee

zhiv9 said:


> I work another full-time job, so my time is a very limited resource.


Me too. I think Jim Lyon's perspective is that a good hot knife is as fast (possibly faster) than some types of automation, with much less equipment to deal with. I'm just not sure I could ever get that good at hand uncapping.... Seems to take for ever right now. Perhaps Jim will invite me to SD for the summer to learn the craft of hand uncapping?? I could see him starting me out with a set of chop sticks trying to catch bees by their wings, then move me to polishing the extractors (wax on, wax off)  Just kidding Jim.

Regarding prices, I think the Silver Queen is quite a bit more than the basic Maxant chain uncapper with spinner. The uncapper is about $2400 and the Junior Capping Spinner is about $1500. So, for about $3900 you could get the very basic system. Some sort of tanks to hold cappings and uncapped frames would be very helpful too. The Silver Queen alone is $6150, then you would need a heat source, capping spinner, plus other tanks, etc., which would likely drive it up near the $10k mark pretty quickly.


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## zhiv9

AstroBee said:


> Regarding prices, I think the Silver Queen is quite a bit more than the basic Maxant chain uncapper with spinner. The uncapper is about $2400 and the Junior Capping Spinner is about $1500. So, for about $3900 you could get the very basic system. Some sort of tanks to hold cappings and uncapped frames would be very helpful too. The Silver Queen alone is $6150, then you would need a heat source, capping spinner, plus other tanks, etc., which would likely drive it up near the $10k mark pretty quickly.


Yeah, I was looking at the combo unit with the chain uncapper mounted on their larger spinner. It's ~$6000 list, but saves transferring the cappings from a tank under the uncapper to the spinner by hand.

My other job is with an automation company that build's one-off manufacturing equipment for the automotive industry - this likely gives me an unfair bias towards automation, but also a good understanding of the importance of process flow and the folly of handling anything more times than you have to.


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## jim lyon

AstroBee said:


> Me too. I think Jim Lyon's perspective is that a good hot knife is as fast (possibly faster) than some types of automation, with much less equipment to deal with. I'm just not sure I could ever get that good at hand uncapping.... Seems to take for ever right now. Perhaps Jim will invite me to SD for the summer to learn the craft of hand uncapping?? I could see him starting me out with a set of chop sticks trying to catch bees by their wings, then move me to polishing the extractors (wax on, wax off)  Just kidding Jim.
> 
> Regarding prices, I think the Silver Queen is quite a bit more than the basic Maxant chain uncapper with spinner. The uncapper is about $2400 and the Junior Capping Spinner is about $1500. So, for about $3900 you could get the very basic system. Some sort of tanks to hold cappings and uncapped frames would be very helpful too. The Silver Queen alone is $6150, then you would need a heat source, capping spinner, plus other tanks, etc., which would likely drive it up near the $10k mark pretty quickly.


Well your certainly welcome to stop in our extracting room, though you might get put to work, unlike the Cobra Ki we won't "sweep the leg".  Actually we haven't hand uncapped since the 1970's, my skills have eroded a bit. 
If you can find an old Woodman 45 frame extractor they can be easily retrofitted to use as a capping spinner though they do require cleaning out by hand, a job that takes 20 minutes or so. The reel is perforated metal that works perfectly for drying cappings, so all that is need is a bottom and a rim about 4" wide fitted to the top of the reel to keep the wet cappings from sliding up over the top as it begins to fill. The problem, though, is unless you are hand uncapping directly into the spinner you need a way to get them transferred from under the uncapper up into the spinner. A custom auger would do the trick but in stainless may cost you around $5,000. The small Maxant would be far less money as the much larger Cowen spinner runs around $9,000. Some type of large tank with a hardware cloth bottom will actually do a decent job of draining out your cappings if they are warm and clear. We used to do that some ourselves. Just use a pitchfork to take off the cappings after they have drained overnight.


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## beeware10

astrobee
sorry for not getting back to you quicker. my uncapping plane is over 20yrs old and made in canada. I suspect that they are all made by one or two companies. they do not hurt your wrist like a knife does. we have used a cowan uncapper, plane, knife and kellys vibrating knife. I have seen operators in fla that uncapped with the kelly unit go faster than the uncapper. to get full benifit from an uncapper you need at least two people. with an uncapper you need at least twice as much work space.we were running 1200 hives with the uncapper. now we run about 200 hives and a plane or kelly unit works for us now. good luck


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## Flewster

I love my Maxant uncapper. I bought it a couple years ago. it is an older model with the non adjustable pillow blocks but it does an awesome job for my one man 100 hive operation. i dont think i would ever go back to a hot knife again although I have it. I would recommend it.


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## Flyer Jim

Haraga said:


> What about Kelly's electric vibrating knife. Would that work for you? Maybe someone on here has some experience with one.


I have one and it works great. Mine is homemade with Kelly parts. The blade is about 3 ft high. I don't use the motor to make it vibrate anymore, it's too loud and it works just as good without it. So basically it is just a hot knife. Hold the frame in both hands and slide it across the blade. The cappings fall into a bin below. I can uncap faster than my helper can put the frames in the extractor. I have at least 300 hives making honey, probably 600 total.


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## AstroBee

Flewster said:


> I love my Maxant uncapper.


How do you manage the cappings?


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## wglord

Astro;

I am just south of you and run 200 hives. I have had a Maxant chain uncapper for 15+ years and it works fine. I have 4 large 'totes' that I put a wooden frame in the bottom of (2" high_ and set hardware cloth over that. I put a honey gate on one end of the tote. I uncap half a day into the tote and switch it out. The cappings drain just fine in the tote and I set it up on 2 upended hive bodies and let it drain into a 5 gallon bucket. The new Maxants have adjustable pillow blocks so you can adjust the cut, unlike my old one. It is just the right height that you can use a scratching fork to clean up what the uncapper misses or use the fork for partially capped frames. The problem with electric knives and planes is they will soon kill your forearm and hand and if you don't keep them running they will scorch honey and the chain uncapper and fork will never scorch honey. I get a premium for my honey and I don't want high heat anywhere near it. I feed a 24 frame and a 36 frame extractor with the uncapper and the extractors are the bottleneck, not the uncapper. For a one man operation like me the uncapper is some of the best money I ever spent. I just finished up last night using it for about 2 weeks straight at night with no problems. Send me a private note if you want to talk.


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## Roland

Yes, Astrobee, the knives of today are aimed at the hobby market, not the commercial market. The old knives, when you picked it off the cradle, had about 2-3 time the heat of the modern knives, but simmered as soon as you put htem down. From memory, less than 2 seconds a side where needed, with minimal effort on white comb. I believe htey are no longer made because the market disappeared with the invention of hte uncapper.

Crazy ROland


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## jim lyon

Roland said:


> Yes, Astrobee, the knives of today are aimed at the hobby market, not the commercial market. The old knives, when you picked it off the cradle, had about 2-3 time the heat of the modern knives, but simmered as soon as you put htem down. From memory, less than 2 seconds a side where needed, with minimal effort on white comb. I believe htey are no longer made because the market disappeared with the invention of hte uncapper.
> 
> Crazy ROland


Interesting insight that may explain a lot as I don't have any experience with what is currently being sold. I have a box full of old uncapping knives. Perhaps they are more valuable than I realize. Yes, 2 seconds a side. I wanted to say that but thought it sounded a bit too much like an exaggeration so I fudged a bit. We never used a cradle but always laid a nice little pile of wet cappings off to the side that you put the blade in when you laid the knife down so that it wouldn't overheat on you as you needed them adjusted hot enough for continuous use. I really miss the clean bottom bars we had in the days of hand uncapping, it made for easier frame spacing the following year.


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## BernhardHeuvel

I use the PIERCE Speed King uncapping knife and am very satisfied with it.


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## Roland

Hey Jim, just for grins, is there a wattage rating still visible on one of the old knives? Be careful , it may be in roman Numerals.

Crazy Roland


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## TVBeek

My skills at uncapping leave much to be desired. My goal is the 200 hive mark. I'm not trying to come off as anywhere close to an expert. I purchased the sideliner slit uncapper.

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/The-Sideliner-Uncapper/productinfo/795/

It works well for me. I don't have to deal with a great deal of capping wax. I don't know what you guys will think of it. There is a video showing how it works and based on my experience the video is accurate.


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## JCA Beeswax Processing

An idea to consider is getting a used silver queen and having it rebuilt. I like them because they can be loaded and running while you are moving supers etc. Furthermore you only have to lift the frames once and are not constantly handling the frames. Chain uncappers do not work well on old or cold honey. Of course I am biased because I can always use the wax.


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## AstroBee

JCA Beeswax Processing said:


> An idea to consider is getting a used silver queen and having it rebuilt.


Nice idea, but I've never seen a used one come available anywhere close to where I live. Perhaps closer to large honey producing areas, but buying site unseen and having it shipped could be more than some are willing to gamble.

Didn't realize that chain uncappers don't work on cold honey or old comb. I generally don't deal with "cold" honey as most of mine is done before October, when its still warm outside.


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## jim lyon

They are hard to find. There just isn't a lot that goes wrong with them. I sold a well used but imminently serviceable silver queen about 10 years ago for 2/3rds of new price.


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## wildbranch2007

her is a link to reconditioned silver queen, no price given. I bought my silver queen here, had it shipped in, along time ago for a reasonable price. silver queen is down toward the bottom.

http://www.herbee.com/page10.htm


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## Makin' Honey

Jim Lyon, You brought back good memories. I also grew up in a 5,000 hive operation that used a hot knife to uncap. It is an amazing thing to watch a skilled person at work. I wish I had a video of my Dad uncapping. He changed over in the Nebraska operation to the Bogenschutz uncapper in the late 1960’s, but the Texas operation stayed by knife until the 1980’s. Dad never did change to radial extractors, instead we used two Superior Lifetime 8 frame extractors. An experienced operator could extract 20+ drums of honey an 8 hour day with them. I know I did it for many, many, many seasons. When I went on my own I used a hot knife to uncap until I went over 500 hives. Jim, in about 1969 Walter Weldon offered his bee business for sale to Dad so we traveled to Winner, SD to look at it while we were in the area we visited some of your family (Archie and Charlie) and I well remember there hand knife operation. We also visited the Smith or Smidt brothers. Oh the good ol’ days.
Victor Halbgewachs


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## dgl1948

We are using the Maxant chain uncapper over the spinner. We will not be keeping this system. It does a good job of uncapping but that is where it ends. The spinner is kept running all the time. It will build up with wax several times throughout the day and if it is not kept in check the capping's will ride over the top of the drum and into the clarifier. The chains produce a lot of small wax particles and the clarifier will need skimmed several times a day. This system may work good if you were putting everything through a spin float.


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## jim lyon

Makin' Honey said:


> Jim Lyon, You brought back good memories. I also grew up in a 5,000 hive operation that used a hot knife to uncap. It is an amazing thing to watch a skilled person at work. I wish I had a video of my Dad uncapping. He changed over in the Nebraska operation to the Bogenschutz uncapper in the late 1960’s, but the Texas operation stayed by knife until the 1980’s. Dad never did change to radial extractors, instead we used two Superior Lifetime 8 frame extractors. An experienced operator could extract 20+ drums of honey an 8 hour day with them. I know I did it for many, many, many seasons. When I went on my own I used a hot knife to uncap until I went over 500 hives. Jim, in about 1969 Walter Weldon offered his bee business for sale to Dad so we traveled to Winner, SD to look at it while we were in the area we visited some of your family (Archie and Charlie) and I well remember there hand knife operation. We also visited the Smith or Smidt brothers. Oh the good ol’ days.
> Victor Halbgewachs


http://s470.photobucket.com/user/ji...ie-Archie-BurkeHoneyHouse.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2
.....then this pic may look familiar to you. Thanks for the memories Victor, our paths may well have crossed. I would have been one of the smart *** teen agers slaving away there in the late 60's. Perhaps even uncapping under dad's watchful eye......"you missed a spot there Jimmy".


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## zhiv9

dgl1948 said:


> We are using the Maxant chain uncapper over the spinner. We will not be keeping this system. It does a good job of uncapping but that is where it ends. The spinner is kept running all the time. It will build up with wax several times throughout the day and if it is not kept in check the capping's will ride over the top of the drum and into the clarifier. The chains produce a lot of small wax particles and the clarifier will need skimmed several times a day. This system may work good if you were putting everything through a spin float.


How many hives are you running? How large is the clarifier? What are you planning on replacing it with?

Thanks


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## dgl1948

zhiv9 said:


> How many hives are you running? How large is the clarifier? What are you planning on replacing it with?
> 
> Thanks


We are around 300 hives right now and expanding. The clarifier is Maxant's largest one, 28 gallon. They could have a better designed clarifier. It only has one baffle, there should be more. We will be moving to a spin float down the road.


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## zhiv9

dgl1948 said:


> We are around 300 hives right now and expanding. The clarifier is Maxant's largest one, 28 gallon. They could have a better designed clarifier. It only has one baffle, there should be more. We will be moving to a spin float down the road.


Thanks for the feedback, it's a bit disappointing as I am basically looking at purchasing what you have. I wonder if Maxant would add couple of extra baffles to clarifier as a special order. There really aren't that many uncapping options at the ~100 hive size. I think you really need to be more in your range to justify a silver queen and probably twice that many hives for a spin float.


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## MAXANT

Adding baffles is easy for us to do!
They are slotted now so they can be adjusted height wise.



zhiv9 said:


> Thanks for the feedback, it's a bit disappointing as I am basically looking at purchasing what you have. I wonder if Maxant would add couple of extra baffles to clarifier as a special order. There really aren't that many uncapping options at the ~100 hive size. I think you really need to be more in your range to justify a silver queen and probably twice that many hives for a spin float.


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## Makin' Honey

jim lyon said:


> http://s470.photobucket.com/user/ji...ie-Archie-BurkeHoneyHouse.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2
> .....then this pic may look familiar to you. Thanks for the memories Victor, our paths may well have crossed. I would have been one of the smart *** teen agers slaving away there in the late 60's. Perhaps even uncapping under dad's watchful eye......"you missed a spot there Jimmy".


Jim, Thanks for the retro photos knife uncapping and others, I love looking at those old photos. By the way is that orange or citrus trees in the background of the one photo labeled 'Archie"?
Victor H


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## AstroBee

Jim,

I have a question about technique as shown in your photo "Charles and Archie Lyon in their extracting room in Burke, SD in the mid 1950's" 

They appear right-handed, as they are holding the knife in their right hand, but the motion they are using seems like a "backhand" motion. I tend to use a "forehand" motion, which feels much more natural to me. I also see that both men have the same grip on the frame. I don't wrap my arm around it like that either. Are these observations true to how they really worked, or was this just a pose for the camera? If true, what are the advantages?

Great pics!!


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## jim lyon

AstroBee said:


> Jim,
> 
> I have a question about technique as shown in your photo "Charles and Archie Lyon in their extracting room in Burke, SD in the mid 1950's"
> 
> They appear right-handed, as they are holding the knife in their right hand, but the motion they are using seems like a "backhand" motion. I tend to use a "forehand" motion, which feels much more natural to me. I also see that both men have the same grip on the frame. I don't wrap my arm around it like that either. Are these observations true to how they really worked, or was this just a pose for the camera? If true, what are the advantages?
> 
> Great pics!!


Dad's technique in the foreground is exactly the way he would uncap. It was uniquely his and pretty slick. He would cut the top third with an upward motion until he contacted the end bar and then change the angle of the blade (which allowed the cappings to fall into the spinner) and cut the bottom 2/3rds with the bottom edge of the knife. His top grip was also correct as it was important to keep your top hand out of harms way. Kind of hard to see Archie's technique, it wasn't a job he usually did, he had an incredible energy level and preferred hauling honey or almost any other job that didn't require standing in one place for hours. 
Sharp observation Victor. Yes that is citrus in the background. The picture was taken in the Rio Grande valley near Brownsville, Texas in the 50's.


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## Makin' Honey

Jim, in the old photo of the load of bees it looks like they are loaded 5 hives wide so I assume there are some type of "loading sticks" as we called them to hold the hive apart a couple of inches for air flow as they traveled back north out of the valley? Also I would guess the hives were screened in individually? I notice that hives stacked up and not all the same height, is that because of different lids and bottoms? If my math is right that is 290 single 10 frame hives on a 16' truck! So the motor in that truck was probably in the low 300 cubit inches and top speed was what 50 mph and took 3 to 3.5 days to make the trip back to South Dakota? Cool old photo......

Victor H


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## engine revver

Ian said:


> I know a guy running 600 hives who hired a few students and gave them scratching forks... work well as long as he had the students to work


Still using the scratchers to this day.. have a dakota guiness uncapper but it beats the comb and is way too **** loud. Don't see the problems with the scrathing forks to be honest


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## jim lyon

Makin' Honey said:


> Jim, in the old photo of the load of bees it looks like they are loaded 5 hives wide so I assume there are some type of "loading sticks" as we called them to hold the hive apart a couple of inches for air flow as they traveled back north out of the valley? Also I would guess the hives were screened in individually? I notice that hives stacked up and not all the same height, is that because of different lids and bottoms? If my math is right that is 290 single 10 frame hives on a 16' truck! So the motor in that truck was probably in the low 300 cubit inches and top speed was what 50 mph and took 3 to 3.5 days to make the trip back to South Dakota? Cool old photo......
> 
> Victor H


Thanks for the nice post, I'm sure you are referring to this photo.
http://s470.photobucket.com/user/ji...os/1952-04-Archie-Charlie-Texas_0003.jpg.html
It got my curiosity up. I remember my dad referring to the flathead v-8 in the truck. My guess is it was a 239 cid. I remember hearing once that they had to bolt on a new head alongside the road on a Texas trip. The valves were mounted in the block so the heads were relatively easy to replace. Apparently that design was prone to head issues in hot weather.
Yes, your estimate of the trip length was probably about right though if the temps were high they would, on occasion, drive straight through but probably at least 48 hours of driving time. The long trips really soured my dad on migratory beekeeping. Yes, all the hives were individually screened and 1" spacer boards would maintain ventilation and to help tie the load together. 
Ha, ha. They talk about moving stresses nowadays......those bees had to have been under far more stress. Not sure how they could get efficiently watered. 
These pictures were taken near Brownsville, Texas and the third gentleman was Clay Eppley, a lifelong friend of Walter T Kelley. My dad and uncle often bought nucs from him and some of his branded equipment is still in use in our operation. Many of the boxes still quite usable.


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## dsegrest

We don't have many hives, even between us, but a friend and I work together to extract. He has an electric knife, I have a regular knife. The regular knife is faster, but gums up. An old timer at the NC Summer meeting told me to keep a pot of hot water and use several knives, soaking the ones not in use and changing knives when they gum up.


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## wildbranch2007

here is an older cowens for sale for $900.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?302286-cowan-uncapper-on-a-10-ft-chain-fed-rack


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## Beetastic

Not to hijack, but I will be buying an uncapper for either next year or the year after. Looking at comparative pictures from Mann Lake and Maxant, does anyone know if they are the same, just re-branded or completely different designs?


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## zhiv9

Beetastic said:


> Not to hijack, but I will be buying an uncapper for either next year or the year after. Looking at comparative pictures from Mann Lake and Maxant, does anyone know if they are the same, just re-branded or completely different designs?


Mann Lake is reselling Maxant.


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## Beetastic

AstroBee, did you end up purchasing a Maxant system? Would love to hear your experience.

Thanks!


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## rob6118

jim lyon said:


> Not trying to in any way be rude but I am really having trouble with the visual picture of a 40 year veteran with a heated knife getting outpaced by someone wielding a cold knife. Hand uncapping was something of a legacy in our family with the standard always being that you were expected to do 150 to 200 medium boxes per day and we did it daily for weeks on end.
> A Master uncapping knife has a touchy thermostat. They need to be turned high enough to do the job when in continuously use but NEVER left "dry" for long or they can be burned out. When properly adjusted it is quite literally like a hot knife through butter. A single swath through a medium frame should be no more than 3 to 4 seconds per side another 5 to 10 seconds on the top and bottom bars and the rest of the time is devoted to removing the frames, scraping the box and setting the uncapped frame on a holding rack or directly in the extractor. A fourth person in the extracting room could speed things quite a bit by relieving the uncapper a from the work of scraping boxes and carting in more stacks of honey. Deeps take a bit longer though it is quite possible to cut them in a single swath as well. As I said, I guess you just need to see it in action to fully understand. The fact that you are working alone makes it somewhat of a moot point, though, as a hot knife should never be left unattended for more than a minute or so, which means constantly unplugging and reheating which isn't a good option.
> Sorry, I disrupted your thread, I'll let it die. Best of luck.


Just wanted to voice my appreciation for your experience and articulate replies. Everyone will make their own decisions but its always good to have multiple views, especially historical ones that die out from group think and the pursuit of unskilled cheaper ways of doing things. I didn't see it as a disruption


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## Eduardo Gomes

Last year my employee and I with normal knives uncapped 40 mediums of 8 frames each in about 4 to 5 hours. I have an electric extractor that is not automatic. About 50 % of the time my employee was with the extractor and to take frame and to put them. Last year I draw 8 ton of honey with this process. This year I expect extract at least 12 ton with the same procedure. Making some minor adjustments I think I can go from 40 to 60 mediums in the same time. 

It's just my experience. I agree with Jim when he says that a trained hand can make faster and better than a machine. I can do much faster than this example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PHUwUGpFWQ. The only con is that we get tire and the machine does not. From a certain size I think is essential to mechanise the process.


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## Joel

We have run a maxant chain uncapper for 12 years. Beats a knife or plane hands down if nothing mre than the eventual carpal tunnel from the hand jobs. We run 200 - 2 queen units and in decent years 6-7 supers per hive. Our issue with the chain u ncapper has become processing cappings. We used to uncap over our clarifier and have gone to the capping tank they sell with the unit which will fill in about 3 hours of uncapping. We have multiple cappings tanks and feed the cappings into a max ant spinner which is a bit of pain but cappings always are. I've seen and heard complaints about having to add pillow blocks but we never needed to. I consider the Maxant chain uncapper a good investment for your size Astro. I loved the plane but your arms will fall off after a day or two of that . I can't count the burns I have from the electric knife, two of which are still in the drawer next to the plane, they are the last resort for us.


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## Michael Bush

>I purchased the sideliner slit uncapper. http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com...oductinfo/795/ It works well for me.

I'd love to hear more details about what you do and don't like about it. I have yet to hear an in depth review and you've provided more than anyone in the past on it...


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## AstroBee

Beetastic said:


> AstroBee, did you end up purchasing a Maxant system? Would love to hear your experience.
> 
> Thanks!


Sadly, no. I just powered through using my standard method. Still dreaming of the day when I can mechanize this a bit more.


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## D Coates

Joel said:


> We have run a maxant chain uncapper for 12 years. Beats a knife or plane hands down if nothing mre than the eventual carpal tunnel from the hand jobs. I can't count the burns I have from the electric knife, two of which are still in the drawer next to the plane, they are the last resort for us.


I bought one last year and have done 2 harvests with it. Prior my right hand would go numb towards the end of the day from my electric knife and take a few days before the numbness was gone. Long term I knew I had to find a different/better way. The Maxant uncapper can be tough on new comb but it's rock solid and saves time for me. I did get a Maxant cappings spinner (mid way through the year) to speed up my cappings cleaning too. I've used it once but I didn't do it right and dumped almost of my cappings in at once (to save time) and overwhelmed it. Operator error... add increasing quantities gradually next time grass hopper.


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## zhiv9

D Coates said:


> Operator error... add increasing quantities gradually next time grass hopper.


I bought a Maxant spinner this winter as well - I'll have to keep this in mind. I was wondering if I could just dump a whole pail of cappings in at once.

I was planning to buy the uncapper/spinner combo, but chanced upon an older cast aluminum cowen uncapper that had been modified with flails instead of knives. Needs a little work, but the price was right.


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## Beetastic

I am thinking of pulling the trigger on the Jr Cappings Spinner + Chain Uncapper through Mann Lake. They have their 11% sale right now. It's not gonna get any cheaper than that.


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## Joel

the capping spinners is really meant to uncap into...we scoop fresh capping (from the same day) into ours from the cappings tank with it running, it is the part of the process I still am unhappy with. If you dump a pail in or let the cappings sit over night they will compress and not spin out well. We have tried all kinds of cappings process on the simple level and yet found one we like. From the other post about float separators I see I am not alone. We run a Maxant chain u capper, extractor 1996 20/40, 200 lb clarifyer, honey pump and have a Maxant plane in reserve. We have run well over a half million lbs through this set up in the past 13 years and the only repairs, breakdowns have been an extractor bearing and motor and one heating element for the clarifyer. Could not be happier.


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## funwithbees

Hi,
My friend uses a Maxant auger to move his wet cappings to his maxant spinner continuously while extracting. Works very well. Saves the step of shoveling or dumping pails etc. The auger works well to move honey from open head drums also. Like everything they build, like a tank.
BTW I use a small Gunness chain uncapper for 700 hives. They built this model about 10 years ago. Only for a couple of years. It is a lot faster than a maxant, as you can feed multiple combs in horizontally.Works best with 2 people.
Nick
gridleyhollow.com


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## Beetastic

If my apiary was any bigger, I would look (well, I have looked  at the Lyson Uncapper/Auger system. BetterBee can source them. You get the cappings pressed and ready for melting with the honey extracted right away. Looks like very little waste and quick to boot. 

I think it's important to note that every machine has parameters. The cappings spinners work great, as long as you use them correctly. Don't dump in 50lbs of slurry at one go and you should be fine. I've got an older Maxant Uncapping tank that has a nice basket which fits into the tank and allows the cappings to drain. I don't think I'll have any problem with the spinner if I allow for proper draining.


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## AstroBee

I finally made a purchase of an uncapper. I submitted a review in the Equipment forum. Here's a link:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?328713-Review-of-the-Lyson-Manual-Steam-Uncapper


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## sakhoney

Astro - if your not in a hurry - you can do a "all of craigslist" search and find a good used one - there out there - just sometime ya have to wait till fall ETC.


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## D Coates

sakhoney said:


> Astro - if your not in a hurry - you can do a "all of craigslist" search and find a good used one - there out there - just sometime ya have to wait till fall ETC.


http://www.searchtempest.com/ They do indeed show up.


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## Vance G

Running eight frames in a ten frame box and my hot electric knife makes very fast work of uncapping. I am 66 with heart failure and I **** betcha I can keep ahead of you and your cold knife.


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## Tuttle

pierco hot knives have worked really good for me I run half of what you do and they have lasted 6 to 7 years. used is always a good idea especially from a local beekeeper.


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## PerryBee

Strange that the Kelly vibrating jiggle knife has not made this list. The cost is *way* less than most of the other options (around $600) and it works like a charm for me. About the only issue I have had is when I have frames that have a lot of pollen in them, the pollen balls up and then plows the rest of the comb when uncapping that frame. I will set those aside now and use a scratcher for those.


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## Adam Foster Collins

PerryBee said:


> Strange that the Kelly vibrating jiggle knife has not made this list.


Hi Perry,

It made the list - just way earlier in the pages. Every since we talked on the phone, I've been looking...


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## Planner

Jim
I have one of those and they are ok for a limited production only. Use partially for 2 years. I have it for sale for 1/2 the original price.


Jim 134 said:


> This may do a good job for you if you not going over a 100 hive or so.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiLQeSs-9Zg
> 
> 
> 
> BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Planner

I will be using my new Maxant tomorrow of the first time and will give you my thoughts.


AstroBee said:


> Thanks for the valuable fe
> So, can I correctly interpreted the feedback as a vote of lack of confidence in the Maxant chain uncapper? The videos that I've seen make a good impression, and its priced well below the silver queen unit. The silver queen unit seems like a great machine but, well above my price range. If my interpretation is correct, then would someone care to provide specific feedback on why the Maxant is not recommended?


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## lupester

lupester said:


> We just bought one and should be extracting our 1st large honey flow at the end of June. Let you know our 1st experiences.


Used the electric vibrating knife. Worked great. Generates alot of wax vs. the honey paw. Probably would recommend a wax spinner.


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## Planner

Refer to http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?329835-Report-Maxant-Uncapper


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