# AURRGGHH!!! @ hive beetles!!!



## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Devilman,

You may want to try the West beetle trap or something similar - my experience has been that the beetles are attracted to weak or new hives. If you put the trap on when you establish the hive, it seems to help.


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## Waysouth (Dec 27, 2004)

divilman96
I know it sounds ridiculous, but your best defense is the bees themselves. If you see the beetles in the hive, it does not necessarily mean they will mate and lay eggs. A full hive of bees - or a FULL nuc of bees will eventually run them out, up to the inner cover, down to the screened bottom, etc. Beetles frequently enter a hive, spend some time, and leave (they're probably checking hive strength )They mate immediately when you jar the hive (i.e. try to kill them) The guard star works well, but results are not immediately visible (it interrupts the brood cycle) 
where in fl are you located?


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Hi yall
I am up in North Fl. on the Ga. border.
Three years ago I lost my first hive to shb's.2 years ago I started another hive From a packag and put them on the West shb trap. IT Works very well. I got a deep and a shallow of honey the first year.(left the deep for the bees.)I clean the trap every 2 weeks. There have been beetles in it every time.More than once there have been more than 100.I strain the oil and reuse it.I have never cleand it and found no beetles. I did a walk away split this year and I have 2 very strong hives.They are boath on the West shbtrap.I have gone through boath hives frame by frame and I never see any beetles but when I clean the traps there are always shb in the trap.Last week 40 in one 60 in the other.There is a big oak tree not far from the hives it has a new hive going on in it I don't think I will be getting rid of shb's any time soon. But the trap does what it says it will do,Catch and kill shb's.A plus is any vero that drop fall in and it kills them to.Shb larvae end up in there also. I have found a couple of wax moths in there too. So it works for me,


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## King bee apiary (Feb 8, 2005)

Give us a webpage or vendor that you bought it from .I have 4 hives and all are infested with the buggers.Am using guard star ground drench but still have em.Tired of chasing them around with a hive tool.
Thanks.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Got the West shb trap from Dadant Pg.49 top of the pg. This years catalog. I saw a letter to the editor from the guy that invented it in ABJ over a year ago and bought a couple. You can order them on line.Rossman Apiaries in Moultrie Ga. sells them too.Shiping might bee less from Ga. but they are a couple of bucks more so the price is probably a wash eather way.
Ciao


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I heard from our queen supplier, I won't mention the name, who lost over 1000 mating nucs this year to beetles in the south. They had no success with the cumophos. One of the posts on the succrocide thread indicated beetle kill from that(as well as varroa). No test have been done yet with succrocide and beetles so I would count drop after treatment. It would make sense though that the tropical oils would break down the beetle cuticle similar to varroa. I would consider trying that in conjunction with some other method. Good luck and let us know what works.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

heres a short cut to the west bettle trap.

http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=724&osCsid=634a32b4fca2d0d118ac4545d62a5278


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## King bee apiary (Feb 8, 2005)

Thanks,maybe I can get rid of these critters.


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## willyray (May 23, 2005)

Speaking of building and they will come . Have a top bar hive . Wonder what the screen size is? So i could make one to work with the top bar hive.Could some one that has one help me please.Openings per inch. Thanks


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## willyray (May 23, 2005)

Searched and found the info on this forum.I am learning.#7 screen or better yet #6 screen.Thanks


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

i live in west virginia and i here that SHBs are on their way, but they're not here yet.

what do i need to be aware of and what precautions should i begin to take?

thanks


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

I have 3 hives going from nucs this spring that came from florida and 2 of them have SHB. The adults and larva are falling through my screened bottom board pretty well so I think I'll just monitor for now and see if the bees drive them out. The hives are pretty strong. I'll be watching really closely. I don't want to panic and throw chemicals at them.

George-


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

George's situation up in Maine demonstrates that people outside of Small Hive Beetle's domain should be careful what parts of the country they buy their bees from. They are defenatelly more prevelant down south in Georgia and Flordia than farther north. Package bees can easily introduce them to new areas where they may decide the weather isn't too cold after all. 
Maybe they should change the name to the Southern Hive Beetle.


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

disclaimer - I don't claim any of the following information to be scientific or necessarily correlated...I just want to share my experiences

I had one hive with persistent SHB problems, then I moved the 3 hives I had in the area onto a stone pad(over 10ft to the nearest permeable earth) and requeened the weak hive with an open mated russian. Within 4-6 months I stopped seeing -any- SHB. Again, I'd be ignorant and remiss to say the billions of other environmental variables didn't play a part, this is just my personal SHB experience. One, I live in the city where there may not be many SHB in the area and my hives may have been the only local source & two, my weak hive apparently never had a terminal infestation of SHB.


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

okay, as soon as I post the above, I make another discovery....a nuc I made using a queen cell on a frame from the same genetic hive as the one mentioned above, and on the same stone pad is covered with SHB & larvae...in one week...talk about depressing

so who knows...I tend to lean towards the strong hive theory...

edit: what do you do with an infested hive? I drowned the frames in a large bucket of water


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

what does SHB look like on the white board? are they the little white worms or black beetles (or both).


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

There are both worms (larvae) and small beetles with little knobs on the antannae. There are lots of pics on the web if you google them. Anybody know how long SHB eggs must be frozen to destroy them?
JBJ


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## Waysouth (Dec 27, 2004)

George F - I sent you a pm
Mike


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## King bee apiary (Feb 8, 2005)

I have strong hive with alot of beetles but have not seen any larvae yet.hives are mostly in the shade,have another hive in the shade about 1500 feet from the rest under pine trees with no beetles at all.
Should I try and move the hives out into direct sun?Have treated with guard star ,thought about using check-mite but was hoping to get some honey off them this year (first years packages) but if the beetles take over whats the point right.
Does anyone know what their natural predator is?I know that the introduction of another species could have a bad effect on something else but something should be tried.

Has anyone had any success with any home remedies?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I do not have studies and years of research but just observations also. Its no secret about the types of soils that SHB like to emerge from. And I suppose it is also one factor that those beekeepers down south see more SHB than others, not taking away the warm of the south in factoring. But I have one particular yard that has had SHB for three years. Nothing beyond beetles with no major damage up to this point. This yard is located next to a natural grove of pine trees. Much of my area is not good for the natural growth of pines and you mainly see only pines that have planted by people. This grove is natural and the soil is correct for pines.

I know down south pines are everywhere, and for some with limited areas for site selection, it may not apply. But if I was hunting for apiary sites I would try to stay away from large tracts of natural pines. It is a great indicator of soil type. 

I will not mention names, but some large producers in the south have yards in pine groves. (well duh, thats all there is, I know, I know...) I have only seen one package with beetles, but it is also ironic that this one package also had pine needles included in the package. 

Hive beetle and wax moth damage is an indicator of beekeeping management. It can all be directly related back to the beekeeper and usually means that not enough time has been spent inside the hive. These type of problems usually take time and do not happen overnight. I know. I have lots of experience in these matters of "time" issues.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

sorry double post


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I've been dealing with SHB since I started beekeeping about 4 years ago. When I first started, I kept my hives in a location that got afternoon shade (also next to a pine tree - BjornBee may be on to something). My SHB populations were very large, but the hives were dealing with them. I tried gardstar ground drench and checkmite traps and the beetles didn't seem bothered too much by the chems. Meanwhile, my wife did not like the location of my hives and requested that I move them. The only other logical place had full sun (no pine trees close either) and hard packed clay soil. Since moving the hives I can say that I'm almost SHB free. This spring I saw a couple, but they were in only one hive. Since then I have not seen a single SHB. I bought the West beetle traps, but never installed them. Also, when I first moved my bees from partial shade to full sun I removed the inner covers and elevated the outer cover about an inch in the back. I believe that this too had a positive impact on my SHB problem. Of course without inner covers you'll need to watch the hives more closely for robbing and spurious comb building. Its clear that SBH do not like light, so configuring your hives for maximum lighting really seems to help. 


Here's the best document I've found on SHB. 

http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/environ/bee/factsheets/SHB.pdf


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

devilman96,
Are you still here and reading? I see you only posted 6 times to the boards, but if you do come back and read this, perhaps you'd like to get together, I live in Sarasota FL, and perhaps I can help you with you SHB problems.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Let me play the devil's advocate:
<Hive beetle and wax moth damage is an indicator of beekeeping management. It can all be directly related back to the beekeeper and usually means that not enough time has been spent inside the hive.>
And then again there's the theory that less stressed hives fare better than colonies under stress; therefore, the beekeeper should disrupt the colony with routine inspections as little as possible.
This is not offered as criticism of BjornBee's evaluation--just something I read and not experience speaking since shb's haven't gotten here yet.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The other observation that has been made, is that hives that have been opened are what the SHB home in on from miles away.


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## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

For those of you that like to blame SHB infestations on improper hive management... What would you recommend a beekeeper do when starting a new package, and splitting a hive or starting a nuc?

Not every keeper has the equipment available to start a package crammed into a nuc, and wait for them to occupy enough of those frames or fill those comb to the point that it can now be expanded to an eight framer, to wait again for it to be strong enough to finally place into a 10 frame hive. Then once placed into a ten frame hive, how would your suggest adding another brood chamber, so the bees to comb ratio is not lowered to a hazardous level? Would you suggest setting a five frame nuc on top of that box? With two other nuc covers flanking it to cover the remaining open frames on the box beneath? And then...?

I tried to avoid SHB this year, by purchasing packages I thought were northern raised, come to find out the packages were brought up from Georgia. As long as the colonies were strong I had no problems. I made the mistake of adding a second brood chamber to one of my colonies and checkerboarded the frames in both boxes. Two weeks later this hive was infested with SHB, granted the stronger hives next to it don't seem to be effected by the beetles because the bee to comb ratio is greater. So what would be the best way to add another box, since my attempts don't always work out, obviously I have a lot to learn.


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Phoenix,

Although I don't fit into the category of blaming all SHB infestations on improper hive management, I do have a suggestion.

If you don't have many hives, the West SHB trap works very well. It does take a little extra labor (I try to clean them out every two weeks), but no big deal if you only have a few hives.


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## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

Yes, I have a few West Hive Beetle traps that work fairly well. But, I no longer have just a few hives, and don't find it economical to place one of these traps on every hive. Nor do I find it convenient to implement one of these traps each and every time I choose to split a hive or start a nuc, just in case...

I'm looking for the answer from the "Almighty" that manages to have no problems with SHB, "because he keep'm strong hive".


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

Hive management??? I've got them in new nucs. My first year- what do I do besides watch them grow (the bettles that is).


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Pheonix,
Must I have to address every post as I am talking with children. Its bad enough in the tailgater, and now its here too. Thanks for the "almighty" comment. I am glad you know your place, and the level of your "self".

Pheonix, first look at the entire comment. I never said I did not have SHB, or problems associated with them. Breaking every comment down to sentence or word level may be needed to understand on your part, but it normally distorts the full meaning of what the poster has attempted.

I said "damage" can be normally traced back to management, and not being in the hive enough. Hence, if action is taken when the SHB is first noticed(if of course you even know what to look for), than a corrective action can be formulated, and thereby not having damage on a level that some have spoken of. Whether its reducing the brood area, removing excess supers and brood chambers that are sometimes put on as storage or in anticipation of a flow, the introduction of traps and chemicals for treatment, increasing the amount of hive inspections from the beekeeper for the apiary experiencing the infestation, combining of weaker hives, and other management items can.....stay with me........can limit the "damage" to the hive from SHB.


I also mentioned that damage is not usually fast or over-night....thats the part of it "taking time". Damage that I was referring too has to do with the hive that is not opened on a regular basis. Just the same as wax moth, a drone layer, or other problem. Just today I opened a hive that had nothing but drone. No eggs, nothing capped. One worker for every 20 drone. When asked the last time in the hive, the answer was a couple months ago. This should not happen, and the SHB should not happen either on a scale of dead hives. Its not like you don't have several paths that can be taken once the SHB is found in a hive.(If you are in the hive enough to notice whil the problem can be dealt with, thats the hive management part) But like other problems for some beekeeper, its usually well past the time that it should of been taken care of. If you are part of this crowd, you should keep asking questions.

Your question is based on ignorance. The definition of ignorance is "uninformed or uneducated". There is a second meaning..."want of knowledge". I'll take for granted that you are not uninformed or uneducated, and perhaps are just trying to improve yourself. May I be the first to commend you on personal self-improvement(want of knowledge) by asking questions and not being afraid in displaying your ignorance.

I'll be more than happy to answer any questions. Can you please refrain from the "almighty" comments. I hear some are tired of the bantering.


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## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

> Can you please refrain from the "almighty" comments.


I'm sorry I offended you by that comment. How would you like me to address you?
And yes, you have put me in my place, I'm well aware of where it is.



> Pheonix


Can you please refrain from spelling my name incorrectly?

I did look at your comment in it's entirety and I'm well aware of the fact that you have acknowledged having SHB. But you have also refrained from giving us your advice for fighting them when we do have them, other than telling us that we need to keep stronger colonies. I'm well aware of the fact that the SHB attack the weak colonies. And as we have discussed this in previous threads, I have had infested hives. And your condescending attitude came shining through once again, and made sure to put me in my place, and let me know there was a difference between infestation and SHB just being present.

Yes my questions are based on ignorance, I have never claimed to be as educated as some of my colleagues, including yourself, and I have obviously expressed an interest in learning how to fight these beetles. I have made it very clear that I continue to fight with these SHB, and am finding it very difficult to start a nuc or split without having to worry about them being taken over. 

If you'll be more than happy to answer questions I have, would you please back up and read slowly to notice that I have questions that you either passed over or refused to answer.

In particular I would like some suggestions as to how to start a nuc without risking SHB taking over, since my last few attempts in the last month have failed due to the beetles either chasing the bees out of the hive or infesting the comb so bad I had to cut it back to the starter strip. Out of the last 5 frame nuc I started 2 weeks ago, I checked on a week later, and there was little progress, 14 days after starting it I get in there again to check on the progress and one particular comb that had been used to store fresh pollen, was completely covered in SHB larvae. In your definition, is this considered infested? I found one beetle and culled the frame of larvae, the bees absconded yesterday.

Any weak hives I have, or nucs I start, are kept in my backyard. I try to limit my monitoring to once a week, but tend to get in them more often than that. I don't use smoke most of the time because I don't want to keep setting them back but I want to make sure to keep the SHB from taking over. I use a lot of starter strips and foundationless frames therefore keeping the bees to comb ratio fairly high. What else can I do?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

To further not being a nuisance to you and being labeled "condescending", I am sure others will come to to your rescue. If your comment is based on me not giving additonal information beyond "strong hives", than please also learn that there are no "expectations" with forum members. If by some chance this is the best way that you can honestly do in asking for information, and this is as good as it gets from you, than my choice not to respond any further to your attitude would be a good choice on my part.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Phoenix:

To start, I have no, repeat, no experiance with SHB. Having said that, here's an idea that might work. It works for clusterflies, and sandfleas in our area, so maybe it will work for you, and it's fairly cheap. Buy a bag of hydrated lime, and spread it completely around the hives that you would like to protect. It works by desicating the insect you want to get rid of. Anything that crawels through hydrated lime won't make it to your hive. Make your circle a few feet out from the hive and about a foot wide and quite thick. Try it, what will you be out? A bag of lime.

peggjam


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

The following can help to some degree or another.

I have my hives on pallets and then placed on large sheets of rubber. The rubber extends for a few feet on all side of the hives. Initially it was for weed control, but I am sure it helps with SHB also. probably minimal.

I am trying to have as much SMR, NWC, and russians bred into my stock as I can. Just as they are better in handling mites, the same rational can be used for SHB. Some strains are no doubt better at SHB, as all genetic lines can not be the same in anything. I have alot of thoughts in regards to the beekeeping industry breeding wussy bees over the years to the detriment of beekeepers. Same applies to propolis and other traits we have bred out of bees and are hurting ourselves. Thats a deep subject, and perhaps for another day.

One of the items I found out a few years back when using FGMO cords is that one hive would ignore the cords. The next hive would propolize them completely over. And the next hive would destroy the cords and drag it out the front of the entrance. I want hives that may not be aggressive, but I like hives that do not want FGMO cords, mites, SHB, or me for that matter inside their home. Requeening may help in the long run.

I have never moved an apiary due to SHB. I have my doubt in effectiveness unless the move is for miles. Probably not worth the effort.

You have a serious load of SHB. Stopping the cycle is key. I also have only used guardstar once. And not sure of effectiveness. If you are not opposed to chemicals in the hive, I have found checkmite attached to the underside of cardboard VERY effective. I would think that contamination would be minimal to the hive since bees do not come in contact with the checkmite strips. For a case as you described, this would be one of the first things I do. Some are using borax, salt, and other home remedies for ground treatment around the hives. I do not have first hand experience so maybe someone else knows what works from a non-chem point.

I am in an on-going study with external traps. They do work, but I have doubt that they would impact SHB once they are in the hive. And I also question if such traps would just direct SHB into the apairy. And would placing SHB traps away from the apiaries have any impact? I doubt it.

We have already discussed strong hives, limiting the comb area the bees must defend. This should not be over-looked.

Do not attempt to let the bees try and fight SHB larvae once they are in the comb. The bees will not win. Remove all frames with the worms and freeze. The bees will spend vast amounts of time breaking comb down chasing worms, and will limit brood rearing and other essential items needed for a strong hive to flourish. Shaking bees from three boxes down to two, or from two down to one, will allow you to freeze any infested boxes/frames while allowing the bees to regroup and defend the smaller area.

The nuc problem is probably being effected by other hives that are contributing to the SHB load. Are your nucs made strong to begin with? A small thing such as just not enough bees will allow SHB to take over. With nucs, although you may think they are strong, nighttime clustering for a nuc in particular, may let the SHB access to areas that a normal functioning hive would not allow. And do not let the nucs store large amounts of pollen as you mentioned. Remove these frames and freeze for later.

It seems that your infestation may need something to break the cycle of the SHB. Is there other hives/beekeepers in your immediate area that may be contributing?

You mention that due to the number of hives, traps and perhaps time requirements are limited. You may need to change the outlook you have. Money, time, increased management time requirments, and other items may be needed in the world of beekeeping when it comes to SHB. A checkmite trap placed on the bottom board and/or inner cover may be the thing, regardless of cost or time.


I do not like chems in my hives, but think for those who refuse chems on any level, you may change your mind with SHB.

And one more thing. How about keeping strong hives....







Hope this helps.


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## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

Thank you for changing your mind and offering your assistance, as I'm sure you have seen a lot more cases of SHB than I have.

I have no objection to time requirements, as I am self employed and dedicated to my hives. The only objection I have expressed is spending the money for a West Hive Beetle trap for every hive. But I am acquiring more and more as funds permit.

If there are any contributing beeks around here they are still in the closet. Now that I think about it though there is a small orchard that has a few hives at least, which are approximately 5 miles down the road. I don't recall the distance the SHB can travel, but maybe I'm getting them from their.

I know I hadn't had any 'til a month ago, a week previous to finding beetles in my hive I noticed a cloud of black flying blurrs hovering in front of my hives, never even thinking this was a cloud of SHB. It wasn't until discovering a beetle in one of my nucs that it dawned on me that cloud had been there a few days prior. Has anyone else noticed clouds of beetles moving in like this?



> I have alot of thoughts in regards to the beekeeping industry breeding wussy bees over the years to the detriment of beekeepers.


One point that we definitely agree upon.



> Do not attempt to let the bees try and fight SHB larvae once they are in the comb.


I made that mistake last year thinking they would herd the larvae, rid the hive , and clean up the comb. Along with that mistake I tried giving the comb to a strong hive that was a little more aggressive, nor will I do that again.



> Nighttime clustering for a nuc in particular, may let the SHB access to areas that a normal functioning hive would not allow.


This latest nuc disaster started out with three frames of brood and one frame of honey on the outside, honey and pollen frame on the other. All five frames had bees covering them to begin with then I dumped two frames of nurse bees on top to allow for the foragers that would return to the mother hive. I thought it was strong to begin with but the outside frame of pollen was the only one effected by the SHB larvae, and I found the mother beetle on the opposite outside frame. Maybe this was due to the outside frame being open and defenseless during the night as they clustered. What are your thoughts on the claims that SHB lay their eggs upon being disturbed by our opening the hive? 

I can't seem to find the information regarding the amount of time it takes for the SHB eggs to morph to larva. Anyone know where I can find this again? Is there enough time for the SHB mother to lay eggs upon my inspection this week and devastate the hive by next?

I have recently changed my mind on the use of chems, I will take whatever measures are necessary to get rid of these demon spawn. But, I don't want to use chems as a preventive measure, and by the time I find the beetles it's too late.

I've read about Dr. Pedro's SHB traps, are you using something similar Bjorn? Once the beetles are caught in this type of trap, that only seems to contain drone comb, what kills them.


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

Talked to two different beekeepers today. One suggeated closing down the entrance so there will be less of an area to protect. Is this just a stab or valid?
The other uses canola misted on his frame rest and corners etc. I asked about bee kill and he said it would be minimal (sp) as long as it is misted not poured. He says as we all know this is not a cure but it has helped him.
Another beekeeper said to apply canola to a stip of cardboard and attach it to a piece of corrugatted plastic and place on bottom board- read it somewhere he said, but had no problem so had not tried it.
What do you think??? Any luck with oils other than in traps.


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## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

I am a firm believer in constricting the entrances to minimize free travel of invaders. I only have top entrances on all hives, and the smaller and weaker hives only get a 3/4" to 1-1/2" egress.

I am willing to try the canola oil. I did speak to a commercial keeper just the other day that mentioned misting the brood chamber with a trigger sprayer of canola with wintergreen essential oil mixed in. I hadn't heard of it 'til then. He says he hasn't had a problem with hive beetles nor has he had a problem with mites this year. He's only able to get in his hives once every three weeks, managing around 900 colonies.


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

All my hives are on permanently reduced entrances, and it virtually cut out wasp problems overnight. I can't speak for SHB.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

>>I have alot of thoughts in regards to the beekeeping industry breeding wussy bees over the years to the detriment of beekeepers.


I have a friend that lives about 50 miles from me and he has sandy soil, he had the SHB'S in a few of his hives and was wondering why only 7 of his 20 hives would get a growing SHB population, then it hit him that the 13 hive that didnt have a problem with SHB were russian hives, so the requeened those 7 infested hives with russian queens and he said he only see's a few beetles now so hes happy, he told me that the more aggresive russians deal with the SHB better from what he has seen.I know people dont like useing chems in there hive , but I totally agree with useing anything to save a hive until they find a cure, thats why I will use max force gel when and if they every find there way here, also I seen something the other day from my hive setup, my hives are elevated (2 concrete blocks high, (2) 10 feet 4x4 across set on the 2 blocks high and 3 hives on the 4x4's, i keep the blocks sprayed with oil so the ant's want get in my hives, the other day i noticed that the few dead bees that are drug out of the hive and fall to the ground in front of the hive, there are ant's and they are building a nest under the front of each hive, since I work the hives from the back and the nest is a few feet from me , i'll leave them there, like to see some SHB larva fall out of them hives, they wouldn't last a second. nature's little cure, about time them ant's are good for something  .


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