# Bee more like a tree



## derekm

Trees are so different to hives that honeybees might not be forced to cluster until the outside temperature falls to -40C or lower

*Honeybees stressed out by beekeepers keeping them cold in winter*
Everyone knows that honeybees are under threat at the moment but recent research published in the International Journal of Biometeorology by independent researcher Derek Mitchell, shows that one of their biggest threats could be beekeepers themselves, or at least, their bee hives, the design of which shows a fascinating connection with the Second World War…
Honeybees are being kept in hives 4 to 7 times colder than their natural habitat of tree hollows. Current beekeeping practice puts bees in hives with walls less than 25mm (1 inch) thick, compared to the average of 150mm (6 inch) thick walled tree hollows. This new research has quantified the stress put on honeybees and reveals that current beekeeping practices in the UK and US of keeping honeybees in conventional, thin walled, uninsulated wooden hives are making them more susceptible to disease and starvation.







wooden hive and cut open tree nest
Honeybees are under pressure at the moment from viruses, parasites and pesticides. Bee keepers are increasing the pressure by using hives with dramatically poor thermal performance. Academic research, which use the same type of hive, may be misled by the responses to bee keeper induced stress rather than seeing the true behaviour of the honeybee. ”A large difference between the honeybees natural home and wooden hives was predicted from calculations, now it is confirmed by experimental evidence” said Derek Mitchell
Thin walled boxes to house honeybees were adopted in the U.K. in response to World War 2 wood shortages and following the demand for woodworking factories to make the Dehavilland Mosquito, a wooden fighter bomber. After being promoted on the BBC Home service in 1941, these cold walled hives that used less wood than their double walled and insulated predecessors became a tradition that continues to be dominant today, despite modern, warmer, cheaper, expanded polystyrene alternatives. Some beekeepers seeing the condensation in their cold walled hives, further stress the bees by adding vents in the roof, in the belief that it is condensation that is harming their bees rather than their practice of removing heat from the honeybees.
Honeybees are under unnecessary additional stress by the use of uninsulated thin walled hives that are dramatically colder than their natural home of trees. Warmer insulated alternatives are available that will enable honeybees to cope with the other stresses they endure However these have not been widely adopted by beekeepers in the U.K.
Professor Adam Hart, an entomologist from the University of Gloucestershire who co-presented BBC2’s Series Hive Alive about honeybees says “This research is fascinating – winter losses have become a feature of beekeeping and hive design could be a simple way to help honeybees. It is amazing to think that a practice adopted in the War to save wood might be contributing to the losses that beekeepers experience”
About Derek Mitchell M.Sc.
Derek applies physics and fluid mechanics to research the structure and materials of the home of the honeybees. He has degrees in Physics and Microelectronics from the University of Wales.
References
_Mitchell D (2015) Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures of Apis mellifera: implications for survival, clustering, humidity regulation and Varroa destructor, Int J Biometeorol DOI 10.1007/s00484-015-1057-z_
*Abstract*
In the absence of human intervention, the honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) usually constructs its nest in a tree within a tall, narrow, thick-walled cavity high above the ground (the enclosure); however, most research and apiculture is conducted in the thin-walled, squat wooden enclosures we know as hives. This experimental research, using various hives and thermal models of trees, has found that the heat transfer rate is approximately four to seven times greater in the hives in common use, compared to a typical tree enclosure in winter configuration. This gives a ratio of colony mass to lumped enclosure thermal conductance (MCR) of less than 0.8 kgW-1 K for wooden hives and greater than 5 kgW-1 K for tree enclosures. This result for tree enclosures implies higher levels of humidity in the nest, increased survival of smaller colonies and lower Varroa destructor breeding success. Many honeybee behaviours previously thought to be intrinsic may only be a coping mechanism for human intervention; for example, at an MCR of above 2 kgW-1 K, clustering in a tree enclosure may be an optional, rare, heat conservation behaviour for established colonies, rather than the compulsory, frequent, life-saving behaviour that is in the hives in common use. The implied improved survival in hives with thermal properties of tree nests may help to solve some of the problems honeybees are currently facing in apiculture.


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## Slow Drone

What does -40C convert to in F ? Seems way to cold to me. No mention of varroa which is the largest problem wall thickness will have little to no effect on them.


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## aunt betty

Slow Drone said:


> What does -40C convert to in F ? Seems way to cold to me. No mention of varroa which is the largest problem wall thickness will have little to no effect on them.


-40 C = -40 F 

It's is the same on both scales. (weird fact of the day)

I took fluid dynamics and physics in college myself. Been trying to teach it to my bees. It's been a real struggle. 
Naming them all and checking attendance is the current challenge I'm facing.


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## derekm

Slow Drone said:


> What does -40C convert to in F ? Seems way to cold to me. No mention of varroa which is the largest problem wall thickness will have little to no effect on them.


its -40F ... it is surprising. but then think the tree trunk walls 6 inches thick and the roof is yards thick compared to only 3/4inch on a hive.
Read the paper, the insulation makes the humidity go up to levels the varoa cant breed in!.


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## enjambres

And of course, insulation works both ways: it could keep a colony cooler in the summer, too, by mitigating radiant heat gain.

I know my bees do extremely well in my winter hives with 4" of foam insulation all around. (Though I know lots of beekeepers snicker at having that much.) 

My panels are free-standing, removable ones. I don't think I could handle the additional size of boxes with permanent insulation on them.

Enj.


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## D Coates

Keep in mind this is a UK article. In the UK they've got multiple types of hives. It appears the one they are referring to is the "National." We've got nothing like that here in anything but a few novelty uses. The reference to the Dehavilland Mosquito (a wonderful and beautiful aircraft) and wood shortages from WW2 is nothing we experienced here in the US. 

The US Langstroth hive hasn't really changed since before the civil war.


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## clong

What are other's experiences with thick-walled hives? Has anyone found success with custom 2x boxes?


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## Tenbears

Since plants have no way of maintaining heat common sense should tell one that although it would take slightly longer for the core of a thicker walled structure to reach ambient temperature, they will do so. ask anyone who has timbered in the north during winter and they will tell you a 24 inch tree can be frozen clean through the recession of moisture to the root is all that keep them from freezing solid. Pines that do not thoroughly secede will literally explode in cold weather! 
It has been my experience that independent research more often than not serves to verify an opinion or belief the researcher already has, rather that discovering factual information. IMHO

I have a cabin with 18" solid timber walls. it is just as cold sometimes colder inside in 12 hours as it is outside!


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## jcolon

And if we start making all our hives out of tree trunks we get the tree huggers all over us. There's no way of winning this.


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## Slow Drone

derekm said:


> its -40F ... it is surprising. but then think the tree trunk walls 6 inches thick and the roof is yards thick compared to only 3/4inch on a hive.
> Read the paper, the insulation makes the humidity go up to levels the varoa cant breed in!.


I have read the paper we've had this discussion on exactly the same subject. Have you actually witnessed this effect on varroa? My climate is hot and humid and I've removed bees from a lot of bee trees. Though the bees were surviving the mite counts were crazy high. I like the theory but I'm not totally convinced. It would truly be a godsend if it were that simple.


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## RBRamsey

One point he mentions in the abstract is a ventless hive that maintains a higher humidity level. Also, the thickness of the tree will relate to an increased R-value. Therefore, the bees would use less energy to stay warm.



> This result for tree enclosures implies higher levels of humidity in the nest, increased survival of smaller colonies and lower Varroa destructor breeding success.


I would like to see more information on lower Varroa breeding in a higher humidity hive. I live in Alabama and we have plenty of high humidity and heat in the summer. Why don't we see a drop in Varroa? Is it because of venting?



> This gives a ratio of colony mass to lumped enclosure thermal conductance (MCR) of less than 0.8 kgW-1 K for wooden hives and greater than 5 kgW-1 K for tree enclosures.


I am no physicist, but I can figure he is talking about is R-value. A 1" soft wood (pine) board would have about 1.4 R-value, and a 6" will be about 8.4 R-value. This can make difference in heat a home. So basically, when you wrap your hive for winter with Styrofoam, you are effectively raising the R-value. 1" Styrofoam has an R-value of about 5. 

Total R-Value = 3/4" pine (1.05) + 1-1/2" Styrofoam (7.5) = 8.5

Shouldn't that be close to what he is talking about. I know I didn't figure in the thermal storage capacity of 6" of wood.


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## D Coates

I lived in a stone house built in 1857 growing up. Those walls were 18" to 24" thick. It had a wood add on from 1917. The insulative properties of stone are very poor. The wood, though much thinner (tongue and groove over 2x4 with wood siding on the outside) was no better. To me the thickness of wood required to have any substantial insulative properties would make a super weigh more than the honey therein.


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## lharder

I protect my nucs with insulation and have 2 by home made boxes. I've heard enough that I will experiment with insulation of big hives at some point. Fast spring build up to take advantage of spring flows would be of benefit around here.


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## maudbid

Has this model he developed been tested in actual practice? I'm not going to bother finding the paper, the abstract seems to tell me all I need to know about any real world validation. From the abstract (bolding is mine):



> This result for tree enclosures *implies higher levels of humidity in the nest*, increased survival of smaller colonies and lower Varroa destructor breeding success. Many honeybee behaviours previously thought to be intrinsic *may only be* a coping mechanism for human intervention; for example, at an MCR of above 2 kgW-1 K, clustering in a tree enclosure may be an optional, rare, heat conservation behaviour for established colonies, rather than the compulsory, frequent, life-saving behaviour that is in the hives in common use.* The implied improved survival in hives* with thermal properties of tree nests *may help to solve* some of the problems honeybees are currently facing in apiculture.


I am confident insulation will not cause problems, his advice about eliminating ventilation seems sketchy though. There are plenty of examples around of beekeepers using uninsulated and well ventilated hives having very high survival rates year after year, even in climates much colder than can be found anywhere in the UK.

One of my core engineering beliefs which has saved me a lot of heartache:
_All models are wrong, some, however are useful._


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## BadBeeKeeper

The (first floor) walls of my house are 8" thick, square cut logs, and the Winter temps can reach -25F for extended periods. It is not easy to heat and will cool rapidly without constant heat input at fairly high levels. If allowed to cool, it can take a long time and substantial amounts of fuel to to get it back up to a comfortable temperature, in extreme conditions it may *never* reach a 'comfortable' temperature if the high heat input cannot be maintained constantly.

I do not believe that thicker wood [alone] confers that much advantage. I use insulation board and corrugated plastic 'jackets' on my hives and that seems to work fairly well. I also provide top and bottom ventilation, with moisture absorbing board at the top of the hive. This has been working fairly well so far. I don't have any way of measuring the actual humidity levels in the hives...it might be interesting to know, but knowing won't affect the results.

Where the thick wood *does* seem to make a difference (in my house) is in Summer, as a fairly moderate and steady interior temperature is maintained (without AC) despite fluctuations in temperature outside. There is a noticeable difference on the second floor which is of conventional construction and can easily reach substantially higher temperatures.


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## derekm

BadBeeKeeper said:


> The (first floor) walls of my house are 8" thick, square cut logs, and the Winter temps can reach -25F for extended periods. It is not easy to heat and will cool rapidly without constant heat input at fairly high levels. If allowed to cool, it can take a long time and substantial amounts of fuel to to get it back up to a comfortable temperature, in extreme conditions it may *never* reach a 'comfortable' temperature if the high heat input cannot be maintained constantly.
> 
> I do not believe that thicker wood [alone] confers that much advantage. I use insulation board and corrugated plastic 'jackets' on my hives and that seems to work fairly well. I also provide top and bottom ventilation, with moisture absorbing board at the top of the hive. This has been working fairly well so far. I don't have any way of measuring the actual humidity levels in the hives...it might be interesting to know, but knowing won't affect the results.
> 
> Where the thick wood *does* seem to make a difference (in my house) is in Summer, as a fairly moderate and steady interior temperature is maintained (without AC) despite fluctuations in temperature outside. There is a noticeable difference on the second floor which is of conventional construction and can easily reach substantially higher temperatures.


You need to consider the size of the cavity when you compare it to human size habitation. To get the equivalent insulation to a tree nest with an 8ft by 8ft room, the wooden walls would need to be 6ft thick or if styrofoam 2ft thick


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## Harley Craig

how does this account for feral colonies surviving in things like metal fuel cans and gas tanks?


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## BadBeeKeeper

derekm said:


> You need to consider the size of the cavity when you compare it to human size habitation. To get the equivalent insulation to a tree nest with an 8ft by 8ft room, the wooden walls would need to be 6ft thick or if styrofoam 2ft thick


What? Seriously? Do you really think that varying the size of the cavity changes the insulating ability of the walls?

Granted, a smaller space is easier to heat, but the volume of the cavity does not change the R-value of the walls.

One of us must be misunderstanding the intent of the other's message.


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## derekm

BadBeeKeeper said:


> What? Seriously? Do you really think that varying the size of the cavity changes the insulating ability of the walls?
> 
> Granted, a smaller space is easier to heat, but the volume of the cavity does not change the R-value of the walls.
> 
> One of us must be misunderstanding the intent of the other's message.


changing the size of the cavity while keeping the wall constant thickness increases the surface area. That means more heat escapes for a given temperature difference. Rather than looking at just the wall thickness its better to compare the ratio of the inside dimensions to the outside dimensions. in this case* 20inches divided by 8 inches * compared to *9.5 ft divided by 8ft*
its a really dramatic difference.
To go into the detail look at a book such as *heat and mass transfer in buildings* (K.J. Moss) or *fundamentals of heat transfer* (Incropera et al)


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## derekm

Harley Craig said:


> how does this account for feral colonies surviving in things like metal fuel cans and gas tanks?



It tells us the level of stress that a bee colony is under living in such enclosures. 

Think of it this wy: We can survive in a slum with a leaky roof, and noheating, but it certainly is stressful and makes diseases worse.

if you want your bees to weather uncertain fortune then the less stress from us putting them in poor thermal performance boxes is going to help.

And just as bees might survive in the worst accommodation at least for a while, they can also die in the best, but their *chance* of survival improves.


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## derekm

D Coates said:


> Keep in mind this is a UK article. In the UK they've got multiple types of hives. It appears the one they are referring to is the "National." We've got nothing like that here in anything but a few novelty uses. The reference to the Dehavilland Mosquito (a wonderful and beautiful aircraft) and wood shortages from WW2 is nothing we experienced here in the US.
> 
> The US Langstroth hive hasn't really changed since before the civil war.


The laws of physics & heat tranfer are the same both sides of the pond... and the thermal differences between a langstroth and a national are marginal (as detailed in the paper)


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## Slow Drone

Have you run bees in hives according to the study? What is your first hand experience in doing so?


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## derekm

Slow Drone said:


> Have you run bees in hives according to the study? What is your first hand experience in doing so?


we have nearly of our hives made out of 50mm PIR (its about 50% better than styrofoam) with bottom entrances 150mm below the brood box. This gives an experimentally measured conductance similar to a tree.
They do well, by using temperature probes we have seen +16C at bottom of the brood chamber when its -13C outside. They dont beard when its 30C outside.
I do talks to beekeeping associations on this research so I have had to answer a lot of sceptic questions from beekeepers as well as getting it past academic review.


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## Slow Drone

Not skeptical curious. Another curious question is what were the mite counts versus a standard hive? I have a preference to firsthand hands on experience I find firsthand experience versus scientific studies to be more practical for me but that's just me. I appreciate your sharing of information. Don't confuse my curiosity to being arguementive.


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## greg espey

Tenbears said:


> Since plants have no way of maintaining heat common sense should tell one that although it would take slightly longer for the core of a thicker walled structure to reach ambient temperature, they will do so. ask anyone who has timbered in the north during winter and they will tell you a 24 inch tree can be frozen clean through the recession of moisture to the root is all that keep them from freezing solid. Pines that do not thoroughly secede will literally explode in cold weather!
> It has been my experience that independent research more often than not serves to verify an opinion or belief the researcher already has, rather that discovering factual information. IMHO
> 
> I have a cabin with 18" solid timber walls. it is just as cold sometimes colder inside in 12 hours as it is outside!


The R value is greater which means the bees ability to warm the hive is increased...Yes both can freeze but the tree will freeze many times slower with the heat of the bees in it.


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## Michael Palmer

Derek, I follow you on the Forum, but don't say much. Now that you're here....

Until you've kept bees where there's actually a winter of significance, your ideas of how we're so stressing our bees with our timber hives and upper entrances, isn't really true. I'll match summer production and winter survivability with you. Anytime. Do my bees consume more winter stores than your bees in Heath? Most likely they do. We have more of a winter. Year after year, the bees consume about 10 pounds a month in winter. Not much, really. The real use of winter stores happens in the spring when brood rearing begins in ernest. 

So, you need more than your physics presentations to convince me that my bees need to be kept in a beer cooler type bee hive.


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## little_john

A combination of warm tops with colder wooden walls works well for me, with zero winter losses during the last few years. (Due in part I'm sure to our relatively mild UK conditions) 
The colder walls encourage condensation, as well as enabling the girls to detect and then quickly take advantage of a brief warm few hours for clearance during our oftentimes erratic winter temperatures.

The frequently used comparison with a theoretical tree cavity is flawed. Some tree cavities have huge splits in them, negating any insulation they may have afforded and yet are still occupied by bees. Others are extremely damp (which is how they were formed - by the rotting of heartwood), and damp wood is certainly NOT a good insulator.

And who says stress is bad thing ? Look-up "Yerks-Dodson", the experiments of which imply (and I wouldn't want to put it more strongly than that) that some stress might actually be beneficial within the lives of all organisms, including that of the honey bee.
LJ


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## derekm

little_john said:


> A combination of warm tops with colder wooden walls works well for me, with zero winter losses during the last few years. (Due in part I'm sure to our relatively mild UK conditions)
> The colder walls encourage condensation, as well as enabling the girls to detect and then quickly take advantage of a brief warm few hours for clearance during our oftentimes erratic winter temperatures.
> 
> The frequently used comparison with a theoretical tree cavity is flawed. Some tree cavities have huge splits in them, negating any insulation they may have afforded and yet are still occupied by bees. Others are extremely damp (which is how they were formed - by the rotting of heartwood), and damp wood is certainly NOT a good insulator.
> 
> And who says stress is bad thing ? Look-up "Yerks-Dodson", the experiments of which imply (and I wouldn't want to put it more strongly than that) that some stress might actually be beneficial within the lives of all organisms, including that of the honey bee.
> LJ


using a single instance a means to discredit a property of distribution is flawed . It's my granny has smoked for 60 years proves smoking isn't harmful ploy.


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## derekm

Heat flow is heat flow whether they are your bees or my bees or someone car or house, or power station, in the uk the us or on the surface of Pluto.


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## little_john

derekm said:


> using a single instance a means to discredit a property of distribution is flawed . It's my granny has smoked for 60 years proves smoking isn't harmful ploy.


A 'single instance' being well in excess of 50 hives. Which is 100% of the distribution at this location. You'll need to do a lot better than that.


People see what they have been indoctrinated (educated) to see - the Necker Cube etc - your whole premise is based on two unconnected observations: 
1) that the Honey Bee has survived for millions of years.
2) that the natural nest of the Honey Bee is a tree cavity.

You have been educated to look for connections - causes and effects etc - but these are separate observations - you cannot logically conclude that one was the cause of the other, even though that might be tempting - for that is the logical fallacy of *cum hoc ergo propter hoc* - the confusion of correlation with causation. It could equally be the case that the Honey Bee has survived for millions of years, *despite* living in Tree Cavities - thus displaying how adaptable this creature is. Had there been alternatives to the tree cavity available during the several millenia prior to Man's arrival on the scene, you might have an arguable case - but tree cavities were always Hobson's Choice - no choice at all. The only choice in the early forests was between tree cavities - damp, perhaps wet, perhaps split from top to bottom - or staying outside in all weathers. There was - as far as we know - no other choice.

To conclude that the Tree Cavity represents some kind of ideal housing, with ideal characteristics which should therefore be replicated by humans - is to start from a very tenuous position.

I configure my beehives in a certain way - why ? - because it works for me here, at this location. 100% over-wintering survival figures, year after year. I'm sure it wouldn't suit guys in Florida, or Texas - or up there in Vermont or Oregon. There isn't a one-size-fits-all in beekeeping. As I've told you on several previous occasions - beekeeping isn't about inanimate physics - it's about intelligent, sensate creatures - it's about biology.
LJ


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## derekm

to little john. I don't give a monkeys about how you configure your hives. I dont care if the bees had no alternatives if they wanted to occupy a forest. The heat transfer properties of a tree cavity are facts. The surveys of trees cavities occupied by bees are facts. The distribution of their measurements are facts. It is a fact that a tree cavity with hole at the bottom loses heat or gains heat at a lower rate than a wooden hive. it is fact that a heat source/sink will need to consume less fuel to maintain any temperature inside a tree than in a wooden hive. These facts do not depend on whether a tree or bee is alive or not. These facts do not need biology. They do not change with geography or even location in the solar system. Heat transfer occurs regardless of life or choice or your arguments. Its just molecules making other molecules move. Its not fluffy biology, so appealing that "biology isnt physics" is completely and totally irrelevant.

You seem to have a problem with facts, physics and statistics.


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## jonsl

Physics may be physics but you are assuming that bees do better when they are warm. Do we really know that? Many parasites and diseases bloom at higher temperatures. What is the effect on the total system of bees and associated parasites, viruses and bacteria.


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## 220

little_john said:


> A
> The frequently used comparison with a theoretical tree cavity is flawed. Some tree cavities have huge splits in them, negating any insulation they may have afforded and yet are still occupied by bees. Others are extremely damp (which is how they were formed - by the rotting of heartwood), and damp wood is certainly NOT a good insulator.


This cut out I did was very much like you describe, less than 2" thick in the thickest areas, split from top to bottom in numerous places, hollow for it full length and open at the top with the only protection from rain being a 6" thick mat of leaves, bark and decomposing organic matter sitting on top of the comb.


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## derekm

jonsl said:


> Physics may be physics but you are assuming that bees do better when they are warm. Do we really know that? Many parasites and diseases bloom at higher temperatures. What is the effect on the total system of bees and associated parasites, viruses and bacteria.


 I assumed nothing, instead I consulted those who have investigated bees and temperature, i researched this for a number of years in the scientific literature on this subject and reviewed this in my paper. There are around 40 references.

Mitchell, D. (2016). Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures of Apis mellifera: implications for survival, clustering, humidity regulation and Varroa destructor. International Journal of Biometeorology, 60(5), 629–638. http://doi.org/10.1007/s00484-015-1057-z.


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## D Coates

derekm said:


> Derek applies physics and fluid mechanics to research the structure and materials of the home of the honeybees. He has degrees in Physics and Microelectronics from the University of Wales.


You want/expected what from this? Great that you're degreed but so what? Going with thicker wood to get insulative properties (and the theoretical benefits therein) would mean fewer beekeepers as working them would become untenable. Do you actually keep bees or understand the challenges of doing so? Bees have survived in all types of man made structures built for them since before the Pharaohs. They'll continue to survive in them long after the paper and it's 40 references are forgotten. I'm not going to tell my bees they're not supposed to survive well in Lang hives due to the lack of insulative properties. They've been doing just fine prior.

This reminds me of the Mary Kay Ash quote. "Aerodynamically, the bumble bee shouldn't be able to fly, but the bumble bee doesn't know it so it goes on flying anyway."


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## derekm

D Coates said:


> You want/expected what from this? Great that you're degreed but so what? Going with thicker wood to get insulative properties (and the theoretical benefits therein) would mean fewer beekeepers as working them would become untenable. Do you actually keep bees or understand the challenges of doing so? Bees have survived in all types of man made structures built for them since before the Pharaohs. They'll continue to survive in them long after the paper and it's 40 references are forgotten. I'm not going to tell my bees they're not supposed to survive well in Lang hives due to the lack of insulative properties. They've been doing just fine prior.
> 
> This reminds me of the Mary Kay Ash quote. "Aerodynamically, the bumble bee shouldn't be able to fly, but the bumble bee doesn't know it so it goes on flying anyway."


been keeping bees in hives that have the same thermal conductance as trees for 5 years now. My hives are substantially lighter than wooden hives, use conventional frames and are inexpensive. The quote about bumble bees and aerodynamics is out of context. They cant fly using the simple aerodynamics of simple fixed wings, obviously. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumblebee#Misconception_about_flight

understanding physics actually makes the bees more facinating, they exploit heat transfer, fluid dynamics etc etc. just the simple idea of occupying a building from the top downward rather bottom upwards is so much more efficient.


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## BadBeeKeeper

little_john said:


> To conclude that the Tree Cavity represents some kind of ideal housing, with ideal characteristics which should therefore be replicated by humans - is to start from a very tenuous position.


Yes, bees in the wild use the cavities because that is what is available to them, it does not represent an 'ideal'. They will use whatever is available to them, ideal or not. They cannot think like we do, and they cannot evaluate whether the cavity will be 'ideal', they occupy it and either manage to survive, or die.


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## derekm

BadBeeKeeper said:


> .... and they cannot evaluate whether the cavity will be 'ideal', ....


 Think you need to talk to Tom about that one.


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## jrmigs

Michael, I'm in Wisconsin so very interested in winter survival. I thought you'd like to know that I've created a "Beer Cooler" beehive. About the size and R value Dr. Seeley recommends. Mostly a starter hive for the backyard. Still testing. Home - Save the BEES - Save the WORLD



Michael Palmer said:


> Derek, I follow you on the Forum, but don't say much. Now that you're here....
> 
> Until you've kept bees where there's actually a winter of significance, your ideas of how we're so stressing our bees with our timber hives and upper entrances, isn't really true. I'll match summer production and winter survivability with you. Anytime. Do my bees consume more winter stores than your bees in Heath? Most likely they do. We have more of a winter. Year after year, the bees consume about 10 pounds a month in winter. Not much, really. The real use of winter stores happens in the spring when brood rearing begins in ernest.
> 
> So, you need more than your physics presentations to convince me that my bees need to be kept in a beer cooler type bee hive.


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