# New split swarmed - what happened?



## kebal (May 17, 2016)

A couple of weeks ago I attempted my first walkaway split from one of my overwintered hives (2nd year beekeeper) . I took 2 frames of brood and 1 of honey (uncapped) and put them into a 5-frame nuc with 2 frames of foundation. One of the brood frames had some queen cells, I think, although it was all mixed in with some burr comb at the bottom of the frame, so I'm not entirely sure what was there. I looked for the old queen, but didn't find her--that colony was a swarm capture last spring, so the queen is unmarked. The plan was to leave the split for 30 days, then look for signs of a new laying queen.

On Wed, day 12 from the split, the new colony swarmed. Fortunately I was home at the time and they settled nearby, where I could collect them and install them in a second nuc. (I peaked in the split nuc, and there were still 3 or so frames of bees in there, so they definitely didn't simply abscond.)

So, what happened? If it takes 16 days to raise a queen (egg to virgin), plus another 3 days for her cuticle to harden so she can fly, that's 19 days total. Since my split swarmed on day 12, I think that means that either (1) there was a 7 day old capped queen cell on that brood frame, or (2) I got the old queen my mistake. Is that right?

Second, when should I inspect all the colonies (original donor hive, split nuc, and swarm nuc)? I'm itching to get in there and see what's going on, but I'm worried about disturbing any colony which is raising a new queen. Under scenario 1, the original hive should still be queenright, and both nucs are in the process of getting new queens mated. Under scenario 2, the swarm nuc is the queenright colony. Would you wait another two weeks (day 28-30 from the original split) to inspect anything?

Thanks for your help!


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## Tweeter (Apr 19, 2017)

I had a very strong hive that overwintered. On 4/28 I removed the queen, brood and some bees into a deep hive body. Also took a frame of eggs, capped brood, frame of pollen, and a frame of nectar and put in another deep hive body (making 2 more hives). Left the original with what I thought was a couple of swarm cells and a lot of bees in the 2 deep hive. Yesterday saw a swarm about 30ft above the hives. Opened up this original hive to inspect and found 4 capped queen cells on 1 frame. Put this frame down to inspect other frames and found a queen in the hive. Picked up the frame with queen cells and saw the caps open on the end with 2 queens running around on the frame.

So by missing the addittional queen cells I think that it was imminent they were going to swarm. IMO


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

My read on it: Your hive had already begun swarm preparations. You pulled (multiple?) queen cells with your split. The bees didn't know anything significant had changed, even with possibly no active queen. When one of the virgins emerged, they thought "Oh, boy! Let's (after)swarm with a new queen. She can get mated later" and took the virgin with them. She'd had some time to harden up for flight, it seems. Sometimes hives swarm and swarm and swarm, depleting the original hive but possibly starting more than 2 colonies. Might not be exactly _standard_ procedure, but then again, neither is twins or triplets among humans.


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## kebal (May 17, 2016)

Thanks, guys. That makes sense. Hopefully it all works out and I end up with two "splits" rather than one.


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## Gearup (May 13, 2017)

First post here. 
I started 2 hives April 2015. Both packages consisted of Russian queens with Italian bees. Both did very well and thrived. Fed them through the winter (Nov-Mid March). I installed them each with a difffernt method. The docile bees I removed 3 or 4 frames from the BB (Brood Box) and set the entire cage inside the BB. I removed the queen cage and suspended her between 2 frames. I removed the syrup can and closed them up. The other hive (demon hive) I did it the traditional way. Sprayed them with sugar water. Bumbed the cage to get them into a clump and poured them in after doing the same thing as the other hive with the queen. Is it a coincidence that the demon hive was poured in and the docile hive I let them leave the cage on their own? When I came check on the queens and to remove the cage from the docile bees the cage was completely empty and there were no dead bees. I sat the cage of the demon bees just outside the entrance to the hive and it still had a pile of dead bees in it. 

Decided to try a split first of this month. One hive was very docile and easy to manage. They would sting you if they could but it didn't seem to be an all out attack. I could walk 10 ft. away from the hive and they'd leave me alone. The other hive is another story. They were ferocious. They would sting me through my suite and jeans. I could walk 100 yards and they're still trying to get me. This hive has been more aggressive from the beginning. 

I had 2 BB on each hive. On the docile hive the queen was in the top BB. Easy peasy, took that box and sat it on the new hive stand. Went to the demon bees and wanted to split that hive. Looking back I'm not sure why. I went through the top BB but had to take a break because they were stinging the tar out of me. Tried several attempts and finally gave up. Decided to set the top BB of the demon bees on the new location and got out of there. At that point I really didn't care if they survived. Came back several days later and the docile queen split seemed to be doing OK. The queenless hive that was from the docile hive showed they were producing queen cells but only on one frame. The queenless demon hive had no queen cells although they were pretty docile. Looking back that BB probably didn't have young enough larva to produce a queen from. Came back the next day and and found another frame with queen cells on the docile hive. Brushed bees off and took that frame to the demon queenless hive. I've been gone for 4 days and today I'm going to see how things are going. If I can find another frame in the docile queenless hive that has queen cells my plan is to find the demon queen and dispatch her and put the frame with queen cells from the docile hive in the demon hive. My hopes are that the genetics from the docile hive will replace the aggressive bees. My question is should I wait 24 hours before putting the frame with queen cells in to the now queenless demon hive or could I do that right away?

I also bought an Ultra-Breeze suit. Expensive but very well built. No plastic/nylon zippers. All metal zippers. Absolutely love it. They don't promise to be sting proof but I've been wearing nothing but shorts and a T-shirt under it and have yet to be stung. 

Also how can you tell the difference between a hive with Africanized bees and just an aggressive/defenseless hive?

Are swarm cells and emergency queen cells the same thing?

Any constructive advice is welcome.


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

Gearup: your questions merit a separate thread, in my opinion. I think you are doing the right thing to displace the demon queen. She doesn't need to be anywhere near populated regions. There are other opinions on things that can sensitize an <average> hive to the point that it becomes no joy to be near. You didn't include anything on the source of your "Russian" queens. Certainly some have reported problems with daughters and grand-daughters of Russians. I have not seen that here, but observations are observations. Finding out what they mean and what to do about it is the fun part.


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## Gearup (May 13, 2017)

Der,

Thanks for the response.

Bought both packages of bees at the same time from Kelly Beekeeping. 

Went up today and all the queen cells are open or gone. Bees seem to be doing well. The demon split seems to be as docile as ever. Looked for a queen for a long time but never saw her. There were many cells with larva but I didn't see any eggs. The docile queenless hive was the same thing. All queen cells were open or gone. Again looked hard and never saw a queen. Didn't see any eggs but a lot of capped brood and larva. I thought it would take 14 days for a queen to emerge. I didn't look for swarm cells or queen cells before I did the split. Is it posssible that the queen cells were already there and the new queens already emerged? I kind of thought that I had an understanding of how this works but I guess not.

Also went into the demon hive and they seemed a whole more gentle than before. They did fine until I lifted the first frame out of the BB. Then they got a little agitated but nothing like before.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

kebal said:


> I looked for the old queen, but didn't find her


Maybe I misunderstood but is it possible that you took the old queen with the split?


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