# Split like crazy



## Rader Sidetrack

Just so everybody is clear about this, Ace is talking about a "walkaway split", where he is not introducing a queen purchased/raised elsewhere.

In other threads, Ace has stated that he has never introduced a new queen to a hive, so the only other possibility is to have the split/hive raise their own queen.


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## Acebird

That would be correct but you don't successively split the half that doesn't have the queen.


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## KevinR

I agree it's more than possible to do... My flow is roughly from late April to June.... I'm sure that if all my boxes were equally built and all had eggs/right age larva it would work out fine.

I don't do my splits like that though. It's definitely more more work, but I take a frame of brood with attached bees, frame of honey, then I shake another frame of attached bees and drop in a queen cell 24 hours later. Since I make my nucs on the weaker side. I usually feed. I'm sure they would struggle through on their own, but why take the risk when they take down less than a quart of syrup in a week or more?

If I had more hives than time, I'd have no problem trying the walk away split.. I just don't have the resources, that I feel justifies the effort/risk. I'd rather waste a frame of brood than deal with 8/10 frames that didn't get a mated queen back. I've tried that a few times with a hive that just refused to take a queen. No laying workers, but they just wanted to die.. So I shook them on the ground and repo'd their property.

Just the way I do it... I'm still small times... ~60 hives.


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## clyderoad

Tell me more about the flow in your area, if you don't mind.


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## KevinR

Not sure there is much to tell... Depending where my hives are... You have tulip poplar, dandelions, clovers, henbit, blackberries, random wild fruit vines/trees (persimmons, grapes, etc). For row crop you have have mainly cotton and soybeans. I'm sure there are other random things, but that's most of what I'm aware of. The soybeans should put up honey in July, I believe.. But most of my hives aren't really close to that... I'll have a bunch closer to it next year, so I'll see how those do.

In the fall you have asters, goldenrod, and other random flowers that I don't know... But they were pretty confused this year... But it's a been a weird year anyway. Was in the 60s today.. *scratches head* 

Most of the leaves still haven't fallen off the trees and I'm seeing dandelions and henbit blooming. Doesn't look like enough to do anything, maybe they'll do something.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this area "averages" around 40-50lbs of honey per hive per the statistics. I wouldn't know what to do if I was in an area that averaged 150lbs per hive... LOL!

The most that I've pulled off a single hive was ~2.5-3 supers.. But have some hives right next it that don't do anything... So it's a wash... 

Once I figure out how to get all the hives to do what they are suppose to do.... *evil laugh*


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## clyderoad

KevinR: Sounds like a April to June main flow, then some row crops in July. Finishing off with fall grod and aster. Am I correct? 
any dearth?

Ace: tell me more about the flow in Utica, NY.


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## KevinR

More or less.... Usually late Jun into August is 90-105+ degrees of heat, which results a heavy dearth. But it's very easy for us to have a lot of rain out days during the main flow, which is what happen for the last few years. Had record rain falls and flash floods etc... I need to get a bunch of scuba gear for my bees..


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## clyderoad

kevinR, Our averages on Long Island are no where near the 150lb/hive either. We are 40-50's to be safe, maybe a little more, 60lbs., depends. We run a similar flow here as July and August are hard. Usually pull honey by July 4th. or start a robbing riot by doing it later.
I can usually make early splits around April 1 and be safe, sometimes they give a honey crop as well.

I don't think many places are 150's. Although some guys on here have numbers like that.
That's one of the reasons why I asked, "split like crazy" just can't be done in many places, and even fewer places without feeding. The 150lb+/hive areas maybe- I wonder what they would say.

Maybe the OP will offer some description of the honey flow in Utica NY so I'll be able to understand how this could be possible there.


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## KevinR

You have to keep in mind that Acebird is talking about splitting with 10 (I think) frames of bees and brood..... They probably have enough workforce that they can sustain themselves.. i.e. similar to a natural swarm.

I split mine to the point that they are flipping me the bird wondering what I'm doing... I've made quite a few one frame splits when I had too many cells to deal with.... I guess I could have smush them, but I choose to waste sugar and roll the dice. This year I didn't get to do many splits, work had me flying around during prime time. I'm hoping that I don't suffer to bad, this winter.... But if I do... I'll make more in the spring...


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## clyderoad

Yup, I'm aware of that. 
I don't think I have a queen in any of my colonies that can lay up 10 medium frames completely, for harvest every two weeks, while at the same time laying up other remaining comb that will be able to maintain the colony for another harvest of 10 frames of brood in two weeks.
What kind of queens do they have up there? and what kind of flow? I'll wait for his reply.


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## KevinR

Neither do I... I believe that Acebird might have exaggerating the time frame for the sake of the example.... I'll pull one or two frames from a colony per week. If I feel they can sustain it..

If he does have egg laying machines, I need to send him a case of homebrew and he can send me some queens. *grins*


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## Acebird

clyderoad said:


> KevinR: Ace: tell me more about the flow in Utica, NY.


It is great in May and June, tapers off in July and takes off again in late August through September.


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## David LaFerney

Acebird - you should be able to make this (more or less) work. It is certainly feasible to make 4 fold or more increase in a season. In my area though while the early ones would have a fair chance as the season progressed a lot of the later splits would be too weak to deal with hive beetles.

There are other strategies than walk a way splits that don't require manually finding the queen, and that will allow you to get queen cells built under good conditions on multiple frames so that you can generate several new hives with one split early in the season. But whatever works for you.


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## Acebird

Kevin, I have 8 frame equipment and the hives going into winter are 4 or 5 boxes. The first split is 2 boxes each then through an empty box on top because I don't know where all the bees are going to go. Once it becomes obvious where all the bees go the next split is going to be two boxes again. I really don't know how many splits I could make because I have no need for all the hives. But if you could get away with just taking 2 frames, 2 frames and 1 frame, think of how much better it is to have 16 frames loaded with bees. I have robbed a split that had queen cells and put the frame in a split that I thought was a dud and got lucky.

With 8 frame equipment your odds of getting the brood nest to span three boxes is greater than if you have 10 frame equipment. So I think the luck that I have had with splits stems from using 8 frame mediums. I don't think I would have much luck with 10 frame deeps splitting by the box.

Personally, if I had the time I would build my beehives square 8 frames. I know it wouldn't be standard but I think it would fit a hobbyist who just wanted a few garden hives better. It would be closer to a tree cavity and probably even better to split by the box.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Personally, if I had the time I would [HIGHLIGHT] build my beehives square 8 frames[/HIGHLIGHT]. I know it wouldn't be standard but I think it would fit a hobbyist who just wanted a few garden hives better.


"square 8 frames"??? :scratch: :s

A box sized to hold the length of a standard Lang frame is 19 7/8 inches outside dimension. So a "square" box is 19 7/8" by 19 7/8". That would hold 13 frames, yet you are advocating 8 frame hives as best. :gh:

Or are you now also advocating building _custom sized frames_ as well????  :scratch:


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## SS1

I dont think he advocates anything, was just a post about what he would do, and I assumed he meant the short way so custom frames would be in order.. but thats just me assuming....

I tried walk away once and didnt like it.. took too long to get back up and rolling.. If the weather would return to normal I think walk aways would be fine.. as it stands, by june the rain stops, everything begins to dry up, and it stays that way until august when it finally rains again. A 20 dollar queen has them on their toes in no time and I can requeen to get rid of the early commercial pooqueen when my own drones are flying well so I have bees that overwinter.. I am going to try making a few this spring, but again, fear that missing that FIRST major flow will spell disaster if it dries up as it has the past few years.
No way with our weather we could get it done without lots of feeding.


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## Nabber86

SS1 said:


> . A 20 dollar queen has them on their toes in no time and I can requeen to get rid of the early commercial pooqueen when my own drones are flying well so I have bees that overwinter.. I am going to try making a few this spring, but again, fear that missing that FIRST major flow will spell disaster if it dries up as it has the past few years.
> No way with our weather we could get it done without lots of feeding.



Agreed. I gave up on walkaway splits. I just buy 3 or 4 queens and go from there. Much easier and more sucessful. It's worth the small investiment.


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## Acebird

SS1 said:


> I dont think he advocates anything, was just a post about what he would do, and I assumed he meant the short way so custom frames would be in order.. but thats just me assuming....


I thought I was clear but I will make it clear, yes, custom frames and custom boxes. I could cut down the ones I have and never have to make anymore. The only way that would bite me is if I lost all my hives in one year and had to start over with a nuc.


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## BMAC

Ace you dont bother to ensure your splits have brood in them?


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## Acebird

Only by looking underneath the frames and seeing when the boxes change from honey to brood nest. I could go by weight except in the spring most of the honey is gone so a box could be light and still not have brood. I do not pull frames and look for eggs or brood. Also up here in the spring the brood is not going to be scattered all over the hive because we have cool nights. Latter on in the summer the brood could be scattered because I don't use a QE.


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## BMAC

So you truly have no way of knowing whether your colony has brood or not unless its capped brood by looking from below up to the top bar? Sounds like you are guessing whether there is brood in it or not. Does that really work well for you?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> I thought I was clear but I will make it clear, yes, custom frames and custom boxes.


Anyone considering actually _implementing _the plan outlined above, with _custom width frames,_ should be aware that this plan may require a custom built/modified extractor as well, or otherwise require crush and strain honey processing.

:gh:


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## BMAC

Not really Graham. I have custom frames for my mating NUCs and I can extract just fine in my dadant extractors. Now the problem is it wont fit my uncapper so its uncapped by hand.


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## Rader Sidetrack

The frame reel in the extractor that I got from Brushy Mountain has the upper and lower frame guides spaced 16" apart. If custom frames width are less than that, they won't be tall enough to reach the top guide, and _*may *_be unstable.

That *may *be a problem.


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## BMAC

So your extractor doesn't have expanded metal helping support your frame. Is it one of the italian extractors they sell with the plastic/stainless steel reel?


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## Rader Sidetrack

I actually bought a _deeply discounted_ 21 frame "scratch n' dent" model from the BM _Bargain Barn_ that was stripped of some parts. But looking at other models didn't suggest that there was ever any expanded metal with this model. Also, I didn't see any significant plastic on these models.

Of course, not all extractors are designed to identical specifications. That is why my original post used the word "may". Its probably best to identify an extractor that works with your custom frame design _before _you commit to those custom frames.


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## BMAC

:lpf:

Yes so I would not suggest custom frames to anyone unless they really needed them. Of course they could always build a flat extractor or whatever they are called for extracting from TBHs.


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## Rader Sidetrack

100 % stainless steel _flat _extractor ....











I am not trying to make fun of those who chose to do crush and strain. I also have a couple of TBHs, and Crush&Strain is just the way it is for TBH harvesting. But one really should have a harvesting _plan _before committing to a particular non-standard hive style.


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## BMAC

Not exactly the extractor I was talking about, but :lpf: He if it works, use it.


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## Acebird

BMAC said:


> So you truly have no way of knowing whether your colony has brood or not unless its capped brood by looking from below up to the top bar? Sounds like you are guessing whether there is brood in it or not. Does that really work well for you?


I know it has brood. I don't know if it has eggs or uncapped brood. It works just fine.

If a hive it taking off like a banchie and it usually does if it makes it through winter and has plenty of honey, it is a pretty good bet that it has brood of all stages and eggs. Most of you beekeepers are worried about efficiency. I could care less about efficiency. I am not selling any honey that I have to worry about getting the most amount you can get.

The way my extractor is designed I would have no problem running shorter frames. All I would have to do is move the brackets on the PVC tube or add more so I could do both lengths. Actually shorter frames would allow me to raise the motor and get more capacity but with only three hives I haven't even come close to have the level of honey reach the motor.


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## KevinR

There are plenty of people that do walk away splits... I've done it and it works.... I just prefer to have more of hands on approach... I also feel that I can do more splits with moving frames than doing a walk away. i.e. one 8 frame box could make 4+ splits depending on their make up and how weak I wanted them to be.

I don't see any problem with having custom sized frames, beside the effort involved. You could easily modify a top bar to function has an adapter. Snap in the new smaller frame.. extract, then snap out the new frame.

I'm considering doing this on a bunch of mating nucs that I want to make up.... With that said, I don't know if there is real reason do to it.. It would definitely make it easier to know you have brood in your frames, because the hive would be collapses that much more.. Taller/skinnier.. Your just taking a slice out of the tower.


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## Acebird

KevinR said:


> I just prefer to have more of hands on approach...


And I prefer to let nature take its course. Isn't beekeeping wonderful you can do what ever you want it all works out.


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## GLOCK

Acebird said:


> Isn't beekeeping wonderful you can do what ever you want it all works out.


If only that was true:s


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## WLC

How about splitting using bought virgin cells/queens?

But, maybe that's just too nutty. 

Walk away splits are cheap. Splits made with bought mated queens are quick.

I haven't heard much about the middle ground though.

Why is that?


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## GLOCK

I made splits with a strong DBL. deep I just pulled the queen and did some notching and made like 5 splits with QCs and put a frame of brood with each QC in a queen castle {2 frame set up} and let the DBL. deep requeen its self so that's 6 total with alittle help from other hives for the frame of brood. I like to make queens and splits and catching swarms just all of it.


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## Acebird

WLC said:


> Why is that?


A queen cell is kind of delicate so shipping would do them in. There is nothing nutty about using a queen cell in your own apiary.


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## KevinR

There are plenty of people that ship and buy queen cells. David Miksa has made an entire business out of it.. I believe he ships/sales hundreds of thousands of cells.

I'm planning on buying a bunch this year. When you order the cells, they hatch the same day...(Generally)

From an email conversation with David..

_
"We only ship queen cells next day Air UPS a box can hold up to 230 cells & we can tie two together.
They are shipped in cell protectors with bees to keep them warm.
Shipped only to your nearest UPS Customer service center as the cells emerge the day you get them.
In the Lower 48 states it runs from $40 to $110. Double boxes are 50% higher."_

Shipping prices may have changed since I talked to him....


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## WLC

Acebird:

Time and genetics are the issues. Queen cells are less expensive than mated queens, and have the advantage of 'new' genetics. Marked, virgin queens add a whole new dimension to 'splitting like crazy'.

It can produce hybrids, and you can certify the queen stock.

That's nontrivial in some necks of the woods.


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## Acebird

That is news to me. What is the fall out percentage?


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## GLOCK

WLC said:


> Time and genetics are the issues. Queen cells are less expensive than mated queens, and have the advantage of 'new' genetics. Marked, virgin queens add a whole new dimension to 'splitting like crazy'.
> 
> It can produce hybrids, and you can certify the queen stock.
> 
> That's nontrivial in some necks of the woods.


This is what I now want to learn just now starting to try to learn how to breed great queens.
That is my goal well one of them.


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## KevinR

There are plenty of posts on the forums around it, but I've heard around 80% success on cells emerging/taking... I'd guess that would ultimately depend on how many hungry dragonflies you have in your area..

By the time the queens are shipped, they are in the final form and pretty tough... I've had cells call out of the seat of my truck and bounce around on the floor. All of them made it.... Now if it was on day 7 or so when the wings formed... No so much.


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## Acebird

WLC said:


> Marked, virgin queens add a whole new dimension to 'splitting like crazy'.


I can see where it would. So essentially you can do a cut out with a bee vac and suck up a bunch of bees then throw in a queen cell and you are good to go. I dinn't think they were that available.


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## WLC

Glock:

I'm a believer in name brand/heritage stock.

If you can't name the stock, you're playing an 'outside' game.

Would you rather say 'they're mutts', or would you prefer to sat that they're open mated 'such and such'?

My own thoughts are that it has become an issue. And, rightfully so.


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## GLOCK

So WLC if I have 25 hives and my stock came from two different sources and I have breed queens and made splits from these hives is it good to keep breeding from the same stock?
or should I be thinking about bringing in some out side genetics?
I have some really nice bees and things are going well.


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## KevinR

Well I don't think you can order them like a happy meal.... And it would be cost prohibitive to buy just one. I've sold quite a few cells to local association members that wanted to try mating their own, but didn't want to graft.

I just have them come to the bee yard with a igloo cooler with a hot water bottle and a towel.. The wrap the cells and wander off on their own.. So depending on your local queen breeders it could be a viable option... I'm just looking to get a earlier start and get some new genetics... To see how they perform and won't have to deal with the bees clustering away from the cells in our unpredictable spring weather..


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## WLC

Ahh!

Look at the BeeWeaver model.

We know they're queens are Italian/Buckfast: a pretty good selling point. And, they're open mated (kind of edgy).

What would happen if you used name brand virgin queens, and hybridized them with your local drones?

I hope you see the point that I'm trying to make.


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## KevinR

I would expect that you have enough wild bees in your area to make up your diversity in your drone pool. If you were mating queens every week and depleting the pool to only be refilled from their brothers.. You might have inbreeding issues, but doesn't sound like you have that issue.

You'd probably get better answers in the queen rearing forum. People don't always read every forum to answer a subject a little different from the title...

I'm looking to find alternate breeds/traits/ to see if I can find "my" perfect bee... I generally don't work with smoke and some bees are less than thrilled with that. I also don't like a hive that is the size of a giant beachball in November, but I'd like them to be that big or bigger in April... So.. I keep looking..





GLOCK said:


> So WLC if I have 25 hives and my stock came from two different sources and I have breed queens and made splits from these hives is it good to keep breeding from the same stock?
> or should I be thinking about bringing in some out side genetics?
> I have some really nice bees and things are going well.


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## GLOCK

WLC said:


> Glock:
> 
> I'm a believer in name brand/heritage stock.
> 
> If you can't name the stock, you're playing an 'outside' game.
> 
> Would you rather say 'they're mutts', or would you prefer to sat that they're open mated 'such and such'?
> 
> My own thoughts are that it has become an issue. And, rightfully so.


My bees are open matted for sure but the guys I got them from are queen breeders and good beekeepers but my bees are mutts but the genetics should be good but hey what do I know just starting to learn about it. thank you.


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## WLC

Let's take this one level up.

Hypothetically, ferals mate earlier than domestic stocks of bees.

What happens when you fiddle with the timing of when you split with virgin queens?

It's subtle, but tantalizing.


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## GLOCK

KevinR said:


> You'd probably get better answers in the queen rearing forum. People don't always read every forum to answer a subject a little different from the title...
> QUOTE]
> 
> I have been trolling that forum when I'm board.


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## KevinR

I don't know if there is any 100% truth to that... I'm sure that the Ferals might swarm sooner, since they don't have someone expanding their tree cavity... But I've had knucklehead bees that pulled cells out in February... I think they are just being annoying... They tore them down later... Which I think is a trait of the russians I have.. They build a bunch of cell cups but remove the larva or don't lay in them....

I really like my Russians with the exception that I can't really work them without smoke. Even with smoke, there are times that they are still bent on killing me. *grins* Love that Ultra Breeze suit... 

Now I just have to find the right combination of russian/feral/italians to get some bees that build up early and large, winter frugal, don't shut down on a dearth, and are bent on killing anything that taps on their house..



WLC said:


> Let's take this one level up.
> 
> Hypothetically, ferals mate earlier than domestic stocks of bees.
> 
> What happens when you fiddle with the timing of when you split with virgin queens?
> 
> It's subtle, but tantalizing.


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## WLC

Kevin:

You may not be aware that Acebird got 'slapped around' for splitting early up here in NY State, but his bees made it anyway.

Conventional wisdom is one of those things that can be challenged from 'outsiders'.

PS- Even though I really don't need it, I always wear a full vented suit when working even just a few hives.
I don't want to spoil my 'good looks'.


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## KevinR

I'm not slapping Acebird, or condemning his methods... He can rock his bees however he wants... I'm pretty sure that a ton of people, including Micheal Bush love doing the walk away splits... Some of them split by the box and drop a cell in every single one... The queen tears down or is killed by the virgin. The rest of them get an early start on a cell.

If I had more hives and less time.. I'd be right there with him... *grins*

I'm trying to get into the business of raising queens, so I can't devote that many resources to mating one queen... I've made a bunch of heave shaken swarm box bees, let them make the cells. Then split them out into single frame splits. Some make it, others don't. The ones that don't get another cell or get combined with another hive for a retry later.


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## WLC

Kevin:

What I'm trying to say is that the 'status quo' model is wrong.

I've read the genetic studies on what is happening in the south. Those who are saying that southern bees are AHB derived are wrong.

They're a unique American stock.

So, I hope that you can understand some of the side issues I'm trying to get at.

Southern beekeepers are being maligned most unfairly. That's a fact.


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## KevinR

It's my understanding that the "Itallian" stock was crossed with African bees by some random researcher for some purpose... That they got lose/were released and bad times ensued..

Whether they are "American" stock or not... They have traits that aren't ideal... I look at replacing my queen for attitude problems as soon as the hives gets to point where there are more than 10-20 bees on my veil trying to kill me. I don't mine them crawling around or buzzing in the air. But if they are bouncing off my head like hail.. Or they are all biting the netting and you can smell the venom... 

IMO, it's time for her to go. *grins* 

I think that everyone should look at what has worked in the past and modify it to suit their goals.. Innovations are always made by someone thinking outside the box or trying something different.


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## WLC

The 'attitude' isn't coming from AHB.

They're something else. Tough, American Honeybees.

That's why I've suggested using virgins from a known stock to make hybrids. Just like the BeeWeaver model.

Beeweaver really is thinking 'outside of the box'.

Very innovative thinking.


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## Acebird

KevinR said:


> If I had more hives and less time.. I'd be right there with him...


Kevin, you don't need 60 hives to do what I did. Pick one and just do it. Look at the risks ... one out of 60 is 1.7% risk. You don't think you take that throwing a queen in a hive or a queen cell? And here is the other thing about walk away's, the original queen is in one half so you are not going to lose that one you just run the risk of not gaining another. When you see that original hive keep on expanding than you can do it again and now you run the risk of a second one that may not make it. You are always on the plus side of increasing numbers. What you may lose is honey production and time if you are in a hurry.

I am of the flavor that the breed of bee should match the location and then you as a beekeeper should deal with it. My area very easily supports Italians (and we are talking bees here) so I can do crazy splits. Russians may not tolerate aggressive splitting.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> so I can do crazy splits


Acebird, after doing all of those :banana:CRAZY SPLITS:banana: how many colonies do you have now?


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## KevinR

I think you missed my point.... If I had 3000 hives and needed to split them all in a single day. I'd do walk away splits with the exception that I'd put in queen cells in the split. Versus waiting for them to raise one.

What I have to lose by doing it your way is I can potentially make 8 splits on a box where you make one. The queens are all mated at the same time vs dragging it out over a couple weeks. So they would be built up sooner. Realistically, it probably wouldn't be 8 splits, but it's very possible that it would be 4 splits. Additionally, I'll have the queen cells made up ~9 days earlier. So they would be queenless for 24 hrs or less, the new cell would be known to be in there.

The downside is that I have less bees in the box, so they would need to be fed. But most "nucs" in this area would need to be fed at some point.... So for a 3 box hive. I could do "potentially" 24 splits to your 3... Would I do that, no.. I'd probably do 9-12 splits from the hive... If it was going to be completely torn down and redistributed. Then a couple weeks later. I could take a frame of from each and make more splits. So I "could" be at 24-48 nucs and you'd be at 6 to 9 hives... It's really all a moot point though... The bees and nature are going to do whatever they want.... I'd lose some and some would be able to be split harder.

I've done the walk away split... MB and Kent Williams etc.. are/were proponents of it. I see it as a time/labor saver. If I need that time saved.. I'd do it.. For me, I'd rather spend more time and graft from a known mother hive.


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## Acebird

KevinR said:


> If I had 3000 hives and needed to split them all in a single day. I'd do walk away splits with the exception that I'd put in queen cells in the split. Versus waiting for them to raise one.


What is the difference in time between them raising their own and you putting in a cell? Isn't it only a week? Does someone with 3000 hives bother with splits vs. just buying packages? I view walk away splits as a hobby thing not someone trying to make money with bees.


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## Acebird

BeeCurious said:


> how many colonies do you have now?


For a time more than I wanted.


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## KevinR

I would imagine that every beekeeper out there would rather split than buy packages... If they can... You look at 40-100 bucks per package.. Or a guy taking 5 minutes to move a box and put in a cell. 

$120000 dollars at 3k packages at 40bucks per, which I'm also sure people would love to have.. I think it's closer to 60 per package now.

or say 20000 for 1$ per minute spent. I'd guess that most beekeepers don't pay their workers 60 dollars an hour, so I'm probably being generous. That 20k "should" include setting up the starter/finishers which takes time, but your talking about managing 50 hives that are making 60 cells per. I believe most people get more than 60 cells out of a strong hive. I usually start 48 cells on moderately wimpy hives (5 frame), then finished them above a stronger hive.

It's ~13 days ahead on the walkaway queen... Assuming you start from a fresh laid egg... You put her in, then she hatches that evening.. Mating flights and she's laying 4-5 days later.. Should be laying well at around the 21-24 day mark from when the egg was laid. The biggest perk is that you know every split has a cell.. or you could put in two...

So the queens would be laying for a ~almost 2 weeks longer than the walkaway, but it's also a known queen. Also, the original queen is still laying while your making the cells, so there is no production time lost there. If you do it right, she may actually lay more.. Depending on how you rearrange the hive and give her more room to lay.

P.s. All this assumes a 100% graft take, and a 100% mated return. Realistically, you should have a 90% take rate and 80% return rate... But that doesn't change on the walkaway splits... So I figure it's a moot point. This is for any random lurker that is reading the post. I doubt that a guy with 3k hives would do all 3k on the same day.. They would probably space them out and would graft more cells than needed and stage 20 extra for every 100 that they plan on requeening. Of course, they could just buy 3k queens and shove them in the front of the hive and cross their fingers... I've never been involved with an opration that large... ~300-500 hives is the biggest I'd helped with.


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> For a time more than I wanted.


Five?


----------



## WLC

It's my understanding that by taking several frames of brood, providing a mated queen with a shake of bees, and then feeding, you can make increases pretty reliably.

So, if you have the resources available, as soon as your queens arrive, you can split away.

The main consideration being getting the timing right so as to be ready for the main flow.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> What is the difference in time between them raising their own and you putting in a cell? Isn't it only a week? Does someone with 3000 hives bother with splits vs. just buying packages? I view walk away splits as a hobby thing not someone trying to make money with bees.


The difference is that installing a cell, which will emerge that day or w/in 48 hours, is that you know that a virgin queen should have been present soon after the cell was introduced. 

Whereas, a queenless split set up to raise its own queen may not even start a queen cell let alone produce a queen at all.

The commercial beekeepers that I am familiar w/ do not buy packages for their own use. They buy queens to make splits from their own hives. Or raise their own. Commercial beekeepers split to replace deadouts and to reduce swarming.


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## sqkcrk

BeeCurious said:


> Five?


Three


----------



## WLC

Weather that delays mating flights can also mess up a schedule. Purchased mated queens eliminate that problem. You just keep feeding the increases no matter the weather, and you know what to expect. No amount of feeding will help a schedule if your queens aren't mated.


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## KevinR

WLC said:


> The main consideration being getting the timing right so as to be ready for the main flow.


That's a 100% accurate concern... I make the assumption that any hive I split, is not going to make surplus that year. I assume that I'll probably be feeding just to get them built up enough to split again, or go into winter.

With that said, I've had numerous splits that have gone gang busters and put up a super of surplus... ((My area is 40-55lbs average per hive)) 

So that honey is a bonus and heavy contenders for the next session of grafting...


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## Rader Sidetrack

> For a time more than I wanted.

Ace's hive count, from a post at the end of October ...



Acebird said:


> I didn't get much of a harvest from the _*three hives*_, just a little over a medium super.


No word on how many _crazy splits_ Ace has done since October.

:gh:


(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)


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## sqkcrk

One year I made 100 4 frame splits set up to raise their own queens and had 75% success. I thought that pretty good.


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## KevinR

Sounds good to me... I'm still small potatoes... Last year I didn't get to do near as much as I wanted, only mated around 120 queens and didn't do many splits.. Hoping this year is better with work/travel schedule. I'd like to get to the point where I'm making/selling several hundred nucs per year. 

More than likely, they will be over wintered... Rough plan is to make double what I want for the next year, which accounts for losses and provides early queens to sell and resources to pilfer.

But that is still several years off... But "I have a dream..."


----------



## Mike Gillmore

sqkcrk said:


> One year I made 100 4 frame splits set up to raise their own queens and had 75% success. I thought that pretty good.


Did you insert queen cells in the nucs, or did they raise their own from eggs or larvae?


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> The difference is that installing a cell, which will emerge that day or w/in 48 hours,


Ah, so the cells are pretty far along when you get them. Price of a cell vs. a queen?


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## KevinR

Depends how many you buy and where you get them from. As I stated before.. Buying one cell isn't viable, but buying 500 might be with the offsetting of shipping costs. I've seen cells anywhere from 3.50 to 6.50 per. Then you have divide the 80 dollar shipping cost across the total number of cells.. 1 cell would be 86.50.... 500 cells would be $1830 or $3.66 per cell.. Say 20% of the 500 are duds, then you get 80% success rate on mating.. You have 320 mated queens... Which would work out to 5.70 per queen. 

Another example...

200 cells at $5 per = 1000$ + $80 shipping
80% aka 160 viable. 80% aka 128 mated..
Works out to be $8.44 per queen..

Better than the $14-35 per mated queen that your normally pay?


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## Acebird

So cells don't make any sense for a hobbyist with a few hives. Raise your own walk away splits do.


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## WLC

Acebird said:


> So cells don't make any sense for a hobbyist with a few hives. Raise your own walk away splits do.


Hobbyists can pretty much pick any method of increase they choose. It's those who depend on making an income that may have their choices limited by any uncertainty.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Michael Bush has a page subtitled "*Simple Queen Rearing for a Hobbyist*.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesafewgoodqueens.htm


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## sqkcrk

Mike Gillmore said:


> Did you insert queen cells in the nucs, or did they raise their own from eggs or larvae?


"set up to raise their own queens". From their own three day old larvae. I made sure they had a frame w/ eggs and young larvae.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Ah, so the cells are pretty far along when you get them. Price of a cell vs. a queen?


Yes Brian. Pretty far along. Cells can cost $3.50 or $4.00 and queens cost from $17.00 to $25.00.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> So cells don't make any sense for a hobbyist with a few hives. Raise your own walk away splits do.


I almost bought cells this past Summer. They would have cost 4 to 5 dollars each and would have required a 3 1/2 hour round trip. I'm certain that the success rate with the cells would have been much better than for the virgins I purchased.

Cells would have made sense in my case....


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## Mike Gillmore

> "set up to raise their own queens". From their own three day old larvae. I made sure they had a frame w/ eggs and young larvae.


Mark, that's great. I've always heard that you need to have a strong booming colony to raise quality queens. Apparently if you have enough bees and resources available that is not really necessary. That's good to know, I've always done splits and left a pretty strong colony to raise the new queen.


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## sqkcrk

You do have to have a healthy amount of bees in those boxes. That may account for some of those that didn't work.


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## KevinR

Acebird said:


> So cells don't make any sense for a hobbyist with a few hives. Raise your own walk away splits do.


I disagree. It doesn't make sense for a hobbyist to buy and ship cells... But it does not make sense to tear down your hives in the hopes of all of the parts making it. I've done it plenty of times when I first started. So if you said "for hobbyist that wanted the least amount of work with a "chance" for increase/hives". Sure, I agree.

If the hobbyist has the drive/energy. They can make much better queens in a controlled manner that doesn't involve grafting, assuming they can't/won't do it. You can cut comb/cell punch.. move the queen to a nuc and notch cells, you can overload a nuc etc... 

But I don't believe it's idea to knock down a hive... Not look into it and just pass the full boxes like playing cards while you cross your fingers. Sounds like a easy way for a hobbyist to waste a large number of bees. If one part doesn't make it. You potentially "wasted" a third of your bees.

That's not to say it doesn't work... It works fine... but my opinion is that all beekeepers should due their part to make the best bees they can.. either through purchase or selective breeding...


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## KevinR

Mike Gillmore said:


> Ma strong booming colony to raise quality queens.


You should have larger number/enough bees to overwhelming feed the cells.. This can be done in a number of ways... 

It doesn't require a large number of bees to mate a queen. Which is why people use the baby mating nucs. If they queen doesn't make it back and the nuc fails, you wasted effort and a cup of bees.


----------



## KevinR

Had a PM that asked about the last post. I just want to clarify that you need a large number of bees to make and feed the cells. My preferred way is to setup a cell builder with young nurse bees. 24/48 hours later.. The cells should be accepted and have a little ring of wax from where they are beginning to pull them out.

I then take these cells and place them in a BOOMING hive.. above an excluder.. The booming hive will feed and take care of all the started cells. On the 10th day, I pull those cells and place them in a mating nuc.

The mating nuc only needs a minimal amount of bees. I usually use a cup of bees in each mating nuc, then you lock them up with the cell and feed. The next day, I open the nuc so the queen can fly out of the hive to mate and will come back to the nuc, usually.

The cup of bees is enough to draw out the comb and she will start laying. Obviously you can't do this in the middle of winter, but as long as the weather is acceptable. I enjoy this method.


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## Mike Gillmore

Makes sense. I just found it very interesting that Mark had 75% success with starter-finisher 4 frame nucs. I'm sure they had to be packed with bees to make this happen.


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## Acebird

Kevin, you are not convincing me to change my ways. Everything that we have discussed involves critical timing and the time to do it. Most beekeepers are just beekeepers and I get that. But there is a large number of people who want garden hives and don't want to get into the biology and commitment of being a beekeeper. They have other lives. I know that for most people who make it their life and I think they need to get over it. Bees are insects and they have a far greater chance of surviving a catastrophic event than we do.

Bees are the most exciting hobby that I have gotten into. As a HOBBY they are the cheapest and easiest hobby that I have ever done.


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## KevinR

You have 7,229 posts in 2 years, and your telling me the best way for a hobbyist to increase their number of hives. Is to tear their hive(s), divide by the box without inspecting them, and to hope for the best?

*shrugs* 

You'd be way better served to tell the "hobbyist" to take 2 frames of brood, a frame of honey, and a purchased queen. They have not endangered hive(s) and they have a "very" solid chance to increase their number of hives.

I assumed the Split like Crazy title meant to split a lot... Maybe the title was literal.


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## GLOCK

I say take 2 frames of brood a frame of honey and the queen and let the big hive re queen then they would not have to buy a queen .
I'd take the queen out and let them make QCs and split away bet you could make 5 or more nucs. Just saying.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Kevin, you are not convincing me to change my ways. Everything that we have discussed involves critical timing and the time to do it. Most beekeepers are just beekeepers and I get that. But there is a large number of people who want garden hives and don't want to get into the biology and commitment of being a beekeeper. They have other lives. I know that frost people who make it their life and I think they need to get over it. Bees are insects and they have a far greater chance of surviving a catastrophic event than we do.
> 
> Bees are the most exciting hobby that I have gotten into. As a HOBBY they are the cheapest and easiest hobby that I have ever done.


Who is trying to convince you? And what the heck are "frost people"?


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## Acebird

Hey Mark that is short hand. Frost people are "for most people".


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## KevinR

GLOCK said:


> I say take 2 frames of brood a frame of honey and the queen and let the big hive re queen then they would not have to buy a queen .
> I'd take the queen out and let them make QCs and split away bet you could make 5 or more nucs. Just saying.


I agree. This a perfectly viable option. I like to catch my old queens and place them into nucs for continued expansion and replacing the active hive with new blood. My big problem is that large hives don't always want to accept the new mated queen. Also, on the level of a hobbyist, they might not want to make 5+ splits. If your looking for rapid expansion it works well. The downside is if the bees decide to make all of their replacement queen cells on a single frame. That's why I like grafting and/or using queen cells.

My main point in all of it, is that you need to know what's in your boxes. Then you can make an educated decision on what each part/split needs.


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## Acebird

KevinR said:


> and your telling me the best way for a hobbyist to increase their number of hives. Is to tear their hive(s), divide by the box without inspecting them, and to hope for the best?


Nope, I never said that.


> You'd be way better served to tell the "hobbyist" to take 2 frames of brood, a frame of honey, and a purchased queen.


That takes timing and commitment, right? Your stuck in a rut. Not everyone has the time or the commitment. Now you are going to tell me they shouldn't have bees. I don't think so.


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## GLOCK

KevinR said:


> My main point in all of it, is that you need to know what's in your boxes. Then you can make an educated decision on what each part/split needs.


I agree.
Notching works well also when making QCs on frames I love working my bees and making splits if I only wanted a couple hives I guess a walk away would be ok but not for me.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Hey Mark that is short hand. Frost people are "for most people".


Well then, maybe you are the one who should get over it and stop posting so darn much on beesource. This is a Forum for folks who want to learn about bees and beekeeping and who want to do what they do better. And you don't really seem to want to do any of that.

Also, seems to me that stories about harvesting from your garden and chasing chickens belongs in Coffee Clatch, not any of the Beekeeping Forums.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Here is the thread on Ace's split earlier this year:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?282032-Take-the-poll-queenless-or-not


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## Rader Sidetrack

> Also, seems to me that stories about harvesting from your garden and chasing chickens belongs in Coffee Clatch, not any of the Beekeeping Forums.


Hey .... Ace had _beekeeping _content in there! He said he _thought _about opening a hive, but then ... mmm ... uhhh .... _chickened out_!  :lookout:



:gh:


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## clyderoad

mark--


> This is a Forum for folks who want to learn about bees and beekeeping and who want to do what they do better.





> belongs in Coffee Clatch, not any of the Beekeeping Forums.


:applause: it's about time!


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Also, seems to me that stories about harvesting from your garden and chasing chickens belongs in Coffee Clatch, not any of the Beekeeping Forums.


Oops, sorry Mark. I thought the forum would enjoy what the bees did for me this year. What did the bees do for your garden?


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## sqkcrk

It's more better mental health that I have added another name to my Ignore List. Y'all are on your own now.


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## philip.devos

Acebird said:


> It is great in May and June, tapers off in July and takes off again in late August through September.


Other than goldenrod & asters what plants provide fall flow?

Interesting dialog!!


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## KevinR

Acebird said:


> Nope, I never said that.
> 
> 
> That takes timing and commitment, right? Your stuck in a rut. Not everyone has the time or the commitment. Now you are going to tell me they shouldn't have bees. I don't think so.


I'm trying to remain positive. To help you and anyone else that is paying attention to this forum. If you would take the time to read and understand what myself and everyone else has been telling you... I think you would be miles ahead in your beekeeping activities...

I have never said that your method *wouldn't* work... I said there are more *efficient* uses of your bees and brood. I told you there were multiple ways to do do it, but all you seem to do is stiffen your back and trying to tell me that I'm "stuck in a rut"... 

How is this innovative or a good use of your resources?


Taking a hive a good hive, that could make a honey crop or more hives.
Splitting it into individual boxes, without inspecting the contents.
Setting the pieces onto separate bottom boards
Hoping that they make their own queens.

I don't even know what you mean by timing and commitment... You can buy a queen and do your splits, no timing required. You can divide the resources appropriately and walk away, no timing required with a small commitment of 20 extra minutes. You could raise your own cells through whatever method you want and split your boxes, timing required and maybe an hour of time. All of those options are better than crossing your fingers and hoping for the best.

I'm not telling you that you can't have bees... I'm merely presenting you with the opportunity to learn.. 99% of beekeeping is learning... I started out my first year with a single hive and did walk away splits. I did ~4 the first year. The second year I learned to graft my own cells. I took the same size hive and made ~24 hives.


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## WLC

Besides the timing issues involved, I think that there are some real differences in resources required and resulting productivity.

Even though you may have to lay out $15 -$30 per mated queen, it looks like it takes less bees, drawn frames, and equipment to produce more colonies. In addition, you could end up with more honey production which would easily offset the cost of mated queens.

I've never seen a table, chart. or timeline comparing the different methods though. So, it makes it difficult to pin down.

However, from my readings, it comes down to the break in the brood cycle vs the ability to make a honey crop, as well as the resources required vs the number of new colonies produced.

So, not plunking down $25 for a caged queen looks like it has some hidden costs involved that may end up costing a lot more than $25 per colony. That's not crazy.


----------



## WLC

I just had a thought on why allowing splits to raise their own queens, and providing for a break in the brood cycle, could be justified.

Varroa mitigation in a Treatment Free setting.

That could explain where Acebird is coming from.

That's not crazy either.


----------



## KevinR

Varroa in my opinion are more of an issue in the late summer/winter time. Your probably not raising queens then.

If you want to break the brood cycle, you can do lots of different things, but the end result is not having a queen that is laying eggs.

You could move her to a Nuc and let the full size hive run a muck with cells.
You could cage her and let the bees free her in a few days or whenever you want.
You could restrict her to a single frame of comb or restrict her to a few frames and pull them out of the hive....

If you want to break the "brood cycle" by walk away split, by letting them raise their own with the "*proper*" resources.

Example.

Look in the Hive
Allocate Proper Resources to your splits.
Young Nurse Bees
Young Larva/Open Brood/Capped Brood
Shake enough bees to account for forager loss.
If you want come back in 24/48 hours and Gently make sure they have cells started.
Come back in 16+ days to see if the queen made it back.

The problem is that you now have lost 16+ days worth of brood... Maybe that's what you want, but for me.. That's not a good idea during the flow, which is the prime queen rearing time. 16 days of bees "could" be as much as 32000 bees at 2k a day. The biggest issue is that you now put that split/hive behind 16 days and there is no guarantee that the queen is even going to make it back. If you have to put in a new frame of brood, their are less bees, the bees are older, and you could be in the situation of a laying worker..... Now your hive is 32+ days behind, if they even try to make a queen.

So, if you told me that can't take the extra 20 minutes and you don't care what happens to the bees, then split by the box and move on. If your a commercial person that has been doing it for years and you don't have the time to go through each box, raise queens, or the money to buy cells or queens, Then by all means use the method because you understand the risks. Those are valid reasons and I wouldn't think twice about what your doing..... but to advocate that doing a "uninspected" walk away split is just as good as rearing your own is naivety at best and misleading to the hobbyist.... 

I 100% agree that it will work sometimes, but you are going to have more success by far, when you take the time to look in the box and inspect the frames. If you don't look in the boxes, there's *"no"* way to know what you have. There's a good chance that you have what you need, but you might move 8 frames of capped brood, which will be really awesome for drawing out cells in a few days, but if they don't have any eggs/right aged larva you have doomed that split. Which at the best case your adding a frame of eggs to it.. Worst case your shaking them on the ground in front of the other hives, assuming they haven't dwindled off by then..... 

Main point in all of this is that you have to look in your hive.. You have to know what is going on. And you have to give the bees everything they need to be successful.

WLC, 

I feel that your are at least asking questions and trying to learn. I caution you to know more about the subject matter before you start defending a stand point.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

If someone is so busy that they don't even have enough time to pull a few frames out after doing splits on 3 hives, to make sure each has a frames with eggs, then perhaps they should rethink the hobby. 

I just hope there are no new beekeepers reading these kinds of things who are convinced that this Roulette Splitting Technique is a sound beekeeping practice. I think there is a huge difference between non-intervention beekeeping and neglect. I wouldn't want to label it as crazy, maybe misguided.


----------



## Acebird

philip.devos said:


> Other than goldenrod & asters what plants provide fall flow?
> Interesting dialog!!


Those are the biggies but we have garden vegetables that keep blooming. Very much depends on the year on how warm it gets for nectar and how soon we get crushing frost.


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## WLC

"WLC, I feel that your are at least asking questions and trying to learn. I caution you to know more about the subject matter before you start defending a stand point." 

I've done the different kinds of splits/increases. I am aware of the differences. It's not rocket science. 

As for cautioning me about defending one method of making increases vs another...

I often try to compare and contrast different choices that I can make.

I do understand the TF view of making splits vs the commercial view.

One is organic/resistance based, the other is about the bottom line.

Currently, I'm reliant on using marked/clipped, caged queens from BeeWeaver because there's no way that I can duplicate their hybrid genetics here in Manhattan.

See? I do get it.


----------



## cg3

WLC said:


> I've never seen a table, chart. or timeline comparing the different methods though. So, it makes it difficult to pin down.


Try Increase Essentials by Larry Conner.


----------



## KevinR

I don't treat... If you see in my signature. TF = treatment free....

Maybe I'm cheap, lazy, hoping for the best... But I don't put anything in my hives other than a few drops of lemon grass/spearmint to encourage taking of syrup. 

I feed them when they need it... I'll put out dry pollen sub for them to pick up when the want it. 

I wouldn't consider knowing what's in your hive, or trying to get them to be the best bees they can be the "commercial" view.

As for resistance, I select from the best hives that have the traits I'm looking for and pass that on to the next hives and the next. But again, I'm doing it by making sure they have *everything *they need to be successful...

Trust me, If I was in it for the "bottom" line. I'd get out of bees and do something else.. Like be a Walmart greeter. 

I do it because I enjoy being outside and I want to do something that is more fulfilling.


----------



## WLC

Well, then let's not be too tough on the 'walk away split' folks.

If you're set up for proper queen rearing, then more power to you.

All that I can say is I'm still looking for resistance genetics with an easy/reliable source of queens.

Besides, I like the whole Italian/Buckfast/hybrid swarm genetics. It's got pizazz.


----------



## KevinR

*
I'm not being hard on someone that wants to do a walk away split. I'm being hard on someone that advocates not looking in the hive to select the proper resources for the bees to succeed. (Period)
*


----------



## Mike Gillmore

WLC said:


> Well, then let's not be too tough on the 'walk away split' folks.


Walk away splits are great, if they are gone correctly. You don't just take off a box, set it on another stand, and hope for the best. At least take a couple of minutes to make sure both have at least one frame with some eggs. That's all.


----------



## Acebird

Mike Gillmore said:


> If someone is so busy that they don't even have enough time to pull a few frames out after doing splits on 3 hives, to make sure each has a frames with eggs, then perhaps they should rethink the hobby.


Mike, I tell people what I have done. I am not advocating anyone has to do what I have done. I want to explain to the forum something. I live in a city that is on the verge of not allowing beehives. I also live on commercial property that contains three sizable businesses, self storage, cell tower and bill boards. I cannot let the hive get too big. People freak out over bees. I am not looking for the most efficient way to maintain 3 hives. Because I practice non-intervention, the time it takes to pull a few frames out of my hives is no wheres near the time it takes to pull them out of yours. And when all is said and done I can't see the eggs anyway so what would I be insuring if I took out all the frames? I am very confident now that when I split mediums by the box in the spring and see capped brood that there will be eggs in the two adjoining boxes. And if there are not, Oh well. I will still have the same number of hives I had before because the queen will be in one side of the split. I will lose nothing but a few bees. I am using the method to prevent swarming and prevent the hives from getting too strong and draw attention to the hives. If I have three hives and I split and the split makes it I have to get rid of it. If I have less then three I can keep surviving hives until the count reaches 3. I do not want to buy more equipment and my free time is not predictable. If I bought queens I would have to be there when they show up at my door and I would have to do the split right then and there. It could be a down pour and the likelihood is I won't have the time.

I have said this before, I don't suggest splitting by the box if your brood chamber is made of deeps.

Kevin, I have heard your point, I understand you point. I made the comment "stuck in a rut" because I think you don't see my point because you are not wearing my shoes. Everything you have suggested is correct except for the timing requirement. Every bit of it requires timing. A walk away split requires no timing at all. You do it when you want and you walk away.


----------



## marshmasterpat

For a person wanting a hobby that: does not really caring for major honey production (just for family and friends), is interested in getting additional pollination for a backyard garden/orchard, is not wanting to spend additional money after the initial purchase of hives/bees, and is not interested in having more than 5, 6 or 8 hives, I can see the reason for a walk away split.

I read about folks purchasing some of the famous Texas bee line's queens and getting really aggressive bees out of it. That is seriously a threat to some folks. I have seen some hives of the aggressive Russians and while I felt it was not that bad, I could see the concern some people would have about having those bees around a backyard. 

But if you have bees that are calm, can be handled without veils/gloves and don't want to do the fun cell punch or cell notching, then a walk away split is not a bad deal. If they make it and you end up with more hives than you care for, you have additional hives that you can give away, trade, or sell, if they don't make it you are still meeting your needs as far as why you want bees. The plus side is you still have your original's queen's calm temperament genetics there. I realize that after a split or three, you might have feral genes with different behaviors become dominant, but I would not call walk away splits a bad idea for everyone. It is not a bad idea if done on a sunny day were a glance in cells can see eggs as you split and just make sure both boxes have a frame with eggs. 

The thing I see is there are multi levels of interest in the folks doing this as a hobby. Some want it just for enjoyment (consider it more like fishing/hunting), while others want a hobby for enjoyment but want something more intense or something they can make a little (or lose a little), while another group is looking for a minor income making sideline hobby. 

That seems to be the force driving some of the differences I am reading.


----------



## Barry

KevinR said:


> I'll put out dry pollen for them to pick up when the want it.


And you actually see them pick it up and use it? My experience is, any pollen that doesn't make it into a cell directly from the bees pollen basket that came directly from the flower, it will be ignored.


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## Acebird

marshmasterpat said:


> That seems to be the force driving some of the differences I am reading.


You hit the nail on the head.:thumbsup:


----------



## KevinR

I've tried and I'm not able to put patties directly on the bees, because of SHB... I've done the dry in the past, but it was halfhearted attempt at best... 

For the little bit that I put out they are like little crackhead piranhas. They roll around in the stuff and pack their pollen baskets full... 

There's a bee super highway between where I put the pollen sub and where the hives are... Don't stand in the way.

I'm going to do it to a much higher level this year and will try to make a video. I'm hoping that if I put it out early enough, I can get a much larger build up for the flow. Some hives tend to lag behind because they are building up on what they should be storing for winter.


----------



## KevinR

Video of a pollen feeder in action by someone else..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7esIf5lCVQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQJsbXZ6yMg


This is closer to the way I tried it... I had bought a small bag of pollen sub from Dadant and wanted to mix it into the feed. I ended up dumping it out and letting them pick it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgkD1h1gTG0


----------



## marshmasterpat

Ace - Yes if you cannot see the eggs or larva, then it makes your walk away even more valuable.

I have learned over the last 10 years that not only am I getting more near sighted, my vision during times of reduced lighting is dropped seriously. For someone that used to tear through the marsh at night in boats, I have now realized I don't see things as well as I used to. And by darn those eggs on a cloudy day and through a veil have been hard to see for this newbie in certain comb.

I am trying cell punch and planning on trying notching for splits.


----------



## Barry

KevinR said:


> where I put the pollen sub


OK, so it's a sub, not raw pollen.


----------



## KevinR

Barry said:


> OK, so it's a sub, not raw pollen.


Correct, in theory you could crush your pollen back into a powder, but I don't collect pollen from my bees.

I added "sub" to my previous post.


----------



## KevinR

5 bucks at harbor freight you can get a magnifying visor with lights. 

My dad had lasik surgery and his up close vision is crap, that's what he uses.

If your doing it for the pure fun of it and you don't care if the bees are successful, then rock on.... But anything else in my "opinion" is an excuse. You can look at a frame of open brood and see the large white pearly larva.. If you rotate out in a spiral, generally, you will see the larva getting smaller until they disappear or turn to eggs. Even if you can't see them, you should know that's what is happening.

If you pick up a box and it has 8 frames of brown sugar colored capped brood.... Those bees are probably not equipment to make a queen cell.

As for keeping below the 3 hive limit... Perhaps your area is different, but I have no problem selling every bee that I want to sell. 

Btw, you should be looking at the open brood anyway to determine if your having any problems with various diseases..... IMO.

There's a difference between a beekeeper and a bee haver.....


----------



## WLC

Yup, I've been able to see the swirl pattern from larvae to egg.

But, if you can at least differentiate between areas of capped brood vs uncapped brood on a frame, you've got a good chance of picking a frame good enough for a split.

I do agree on looking over the general conditions of your frames/hive once you crack open the lid.

I'd even say have your smoker/brush/and scrapper handy. I always do some scrapping when I open up a hive.


----------



## KevinR

WLC said:


> you've got a good chance of picking a frame good enough for a split.


Exactly, I'm not suggesting that you grab frames of only eggs or that you spend 2 hours evaluating. It should be a frame with a good mix of young to old larva, ideally on the younger side. It literally takes less than a 15 minutes to find frames and split. Making sure that you don't have the queen can take longer, but in this case.. We don't care.

If I had to make a "perfect" split... IMO.. I'd grab a frame of super dark brood aka walked on aka ready to emerge, a frame of eggs to older larva with attached bees minus queen, a frame of pollen, and a frame of honey. Then I'd shake a frame of bees minus the queen into the nuc and close it up. I'd toss a feeder on top and carry them to another yard. If I didn't have another yard, I'd just leave the entrance closed for 24 hours. Your still going to lose some foragers, but I like to "encourage" the captive bees to draw out the cells and stay behind. If I'm really tearing down a hive, I leave the "weakest" split at the location of the original hive. It will pick up most of the returning foragers.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

KevinR said:


> As for keeping below the 3 hive limit... Perhaps your area is different, but I have no problem selling every bee that I want to sell.


Kevin, you aren't going to make an impact on Ace's thinking. When a suggestion was made in an earlier thread that Ace could sell excess bees, this was his response:


Acebird said:


> I am not republican. I am not in it for the money.


If the splits are weak and struggle because the winter is harsh ....


Acebird said:


> Here is the economics: If winter is harsh I will be able to buy ten hives with the extra cash I make from plowing snow. If it is mild the bees might make it.


Those of us without _snow plowing _cash will just have to pay more attention to our bees. :lookout:


:gh:


(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)


----------



## WLC

If I had to make a 'perfect split', I'd come back to scrap any queen cells after 4 days, then I'd come back in 10 days and get rid of the runt/misshaped queens cells. IMHO.


----------



## KevinR

WLC said:


> If I had to make a 'perfect split', I'd come back to scrap any queen cells after 4 days, then I'd come back in 10 days and get rid of the runt/misshaped queens cells. IMHO.


I was assuming that we were still doing a "walk away" split... I still do them sometimes when I have limited time and fear they are going to swarm. But if I see it coming, I'll setup grafts.. Assuming I don't have them anyway. Then I'll take the 30 minutes, to tear the hive down make them properly with cells from a "known" queen. She will generally tear down the other cells.

Graham, 

I suppose that's good to know... Logic and Reasoning are out... Also, snow plowing must make a ton of money. I am well paid to build data centers for some of largest companies in the US and I still don't throw away money aka bees...

*shrugs*


----------



## GLOCK

AceBird= bee haver
KevinR= beekeeper


----------



## WLC

A perfect walkaway split? Of a single deep, for instance?

Put on a deep with empty drawn frames, distribute empty drawn frames and frames from the lower deep between the two bodies.

Come back to do the walkaway split in a week.

IMHO.


----------



## Acebird

WLC said:


> But, if you can at least differentiate between areas of capped brood vs uncapped brood on a frame, you've got a good chance of picking a frame good enough for a split.


It has been my experience that if you take a whole box (from the brood nest) you don't have to look because there will be eggs mixed in with older uncapped brood and capped brood plus honey and pollen. There is not one frame but eight. I pick a hive that is taking off in the spring. I know there are eggs it is expanding which is one of the reasons I do the split in the first place. The first split is not weak it is two boxes not one.



> AceBird= bee haver
> KevinR= beekeeper


Thank God we got that settled...


----------



## Acebird

KevinR said:


> I was assuming that we were still doing a "walk away" split... I still do them sometimes when I have limited time and fear they are going to swarm.


Then why are you busting my chops? Because I don't look for the eggs, really? Splitting by the box has been done long before Acebird ever thought of bees.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

I challenge you to find one trustworthy publication that suggests doing a walk away split by simply removing a box without even checking for eggs or larvae.


----------



## KevinR

Acebird said:


> Then why are you busting my chops? Because I don't look for the eggs, really? Splitting by the box has been done long before Acebird ever thought of bees.


I was "attempting" to help you out and answer your questions, however it's become apparent that your not interested in that help.

As for the reason that I'm "busting your chops" is because what your doing is an inferior way that does neither yourself or your bees the justice that they deserve.

I've decided that your unwilling to learn, unwilling to admit that your wrong, and unwilling to concede that there might be a better way. I've gotten around 10 messages from different people telling me that your neither worth the time or the effort because are unwilling to open your eyes to the world around you... If you spent more time "learning" and less time chattering... You'd be better off for it... Hence my 409 posts to your 7244...


----------



## Acebird

Mike Gillmore said:


> I challenge you to find one trustworthy publication that suggests doing a walk away split by simply removing a box without even checking for eggs or larvae.


http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#splitbybox

Split by the box.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

Acebird said:


> http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#splitbybox
> 
> Split by the box.


"Of course success is mostly dependent on being able to guess pretty accurately that you have brood and stores in both boxes. If you're wrong, you'll end up with one box empty after only a day or so"




http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm


> *The concepts of splits are:*
> 
> You have to make sure that both of the resulting colonies have a queen or the resources to make one (eggs or larvae that just hatched from the egg, drones flying, pollen and honey, plenty of nurse bees).
> 
> *A walk away split.* You take a frame of eggs, two frames of emerging brood and two frames of pollen and honey and put them in a 5 frame nuc, shake in some extra nurse bees (making sure you don't get the queen), put the lid on and walk away. Come back in four weeks and see if the queen is laying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Which sounds better to you?


----------



## Acebird

Mike Gillmore said:


> If you're wrong, you'll end up with one box empty after only a day or so"


A day or so! I was told 60 days. Regardless of what the time span is you have not lost hive count. So splitting by the box sounds better to me. Maybe because I am a proud beehaver. You do realize some people hate bees and wouldn't have them don't you? Not only that they would not have a problem killing yours. Better to be a beehaver than a bee hater.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

All I have left to say is ... "split like crazy". I wish you the best.


----------



## Daniel Y

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Kevin, you aren't going to make an impact on Ace's thinking. When a suggestion was made in an earlier thread that Ace could sell excess bees, this was his response:
> 
> 
> If the splits are weak and struggle because the winter is harsh ....
> 
> 
> Those of us without _snow plowing _cash will just have to pay more attention to our bees. :lookout:
> 
> 
> :gh:
> 
> 
> (click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)


If Ace has problems with the money he can always send it to me. Always willing to help out.


----------



## Daniel Y

KevinR said:


> I was "attempting" to help you out and answer your questions, however it's become apparent that your not interested in that help.
> 
> As for the reason that I'm "busting your chops" is because what your doing is an inferior way that does neither yourself or your bees the justice that they deserve.
> 
> I've decided that your unwilling to learn, unwilling to admit that your wrong, and unwilling to concede that there might be a better way. I've gotten around 10 messages from different people telling me that your neither worth the time or the effort because are unwilling to open your eyes to the world around you... If you spent more time "learning" and less time chattering... You'd be better off for it... Hence my 409 posts to your 7244...


Whoa, well I guess we have all now heard the final word in beekeeping. With such consequences to not having been graced with these words of wisdom. I suppose we should all bow down in gratitude that we where fortunate enough to have been here.

You might want to realize that just because you are capable of an opinion. does not mean anyone has to agree with it.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Daniel Y said:


> You might want to realize that just because you are capable of an opinion. does not mean anyone has to agree with it.


I, for one, think _KevinR'_s posts are usually _spot on._ :thumbsup:

On occasion, I even agree with_ Daniel Y ....
_


Daniel Y said:


> If shallow mindedness is what works for you then work it to death. Btu some people actually think things over. it is how new things are discovered. It is how any process is refined. so leave the thinking to those that can. you will benefit from it greatly later. For all you know there are hundreds of people out there benefiting greatly from this very conversation. So if it embarrasses you or annoys you go back to the corner and set quietly with the rest of society. Some of us can speak and are not shy about doing so.


:gh:


----------



## BeeCurious

BeeCurious said:


> Acebird, after doing all of those :banana:CRAZY SPLITS:banana: how many colonies do you have now?





Acebird said:


> For a time more than I wanted.





BeeCurious said:


> Five?





sqkcrk said:


> Three


Am I understanding this correctly? 

The original poster had two hives and after an undetermined number of "crazy splits", (and I believe giving one hive away), he now has 3 colonies. 

To me, there doesn't seem to be anything exceptional about expanding from 2 hives to 4.


----------



## KevinR

Daniel Y said:


> does not mean anyone has to agree with it.


Daniel, I wasn't even talking to you.... I'm pretty sure you would take advice offered and combine with your own... That doesn't mean you have do what I say or even agree with me.... It just means you "listen"

I don't see Ace making the attempt at listening on his side... Nothing that I have offered/said was innovative, controversial, or IMO bad advice. Yet all he offered was excuses and a link to a one line blurb to MB's *"Lazy" * Beekeeping. Maybe MB makes all his queens/splits that way, but I doubt it. More to the point, I'm sure that he looks in his boxes and is a much better judge of hive strength and contents... Skills he acquired by looking in the hive.

Everything that I have posted has a Single overruling piece of advice..... *Look in Your Hive.. Inspect your frames...* I can rough inspect 20 hives in less than an hour or 2.... I would think that he could manage to inspect 3 prior to a split, but maybe that's requires to much "timing".

Frankly, I don't care if keeps his bees alive or comes up with some new way/ old way of killing them off. I care about anyone else that stumbles upon this forum post and thinks that he's a fountain of good advice...


----------



## Daniel Y

Kevin, Don't take my post to seriously. I read it as an isolated statement and it just struck me as full of arrogance. I have read many of your posts and will readily admit that you do not appear to me as so. So it was very much a knee jerk BS comment on my part.

I actually agree on the take a look point as well. I don't find it that hard to recognize frames of open brood. and if there is open brood it is fairly certain there is young brood. Just look for those empty looking cells at the edges of the open larva. I don't even really look to see if there is an egg in there. I may look for smaller larva. but as they get to small to see. I don't strain my eyes. I read something that classified open brood as young mid and older larva. When I am selecting a frame of brood to give to a hive I suspect is queenless. I simply look for open brood then confirm mid age brood if I find it I assume there is also young brood. I find it does not take much more time than is required to see it is a frame of brood at all.

Compare that to selecting a frame for grafting. in that case it requires a very careful confirmed visual certainty that you have at least a patch of not only young brood but age appropriate larva. So for me there is confirmation of young brood and a more casual expectation of young brood. Big difference in the effort needed to select those frames.

I highly agree with your final comment above. 

my apology for the above post.


----------



## David LaFerney

BeeCurious said:


> Am I understanding this correctly?
> 
> The original poster had two hives and after an undetermined number of "crazy splits", (and I believe giving one hive away), he now has 3 colonies.


I have to comment for the sake of any new beekeepers who might be reading this. "Split Like Crazy" is not necessarily a bad idea, but don't split like *you* are crazy. My second season I increased from 2 overwintered hives to 10 viable hives that all successfully overwintered - without buying or catching any bees or queens. And I never regretted doing that at all. But I did not do that by making blind walkaway splits. Read, learn and exercise some judgement. Making increase will make you a better beekeeper.


----------



## Michael Bush

I find a strong split is better for making increase (a small split works for a mating nuc). So in eight frame mediums (what I run) that's four boxes minimum full of bees and honey before I'll split. In deeps that's two ten frame deeps. 

If I have eight frame mediums (which I do) and four boxes are full of bees and honey, it's a sure thing there is brood in three of those boxes and honey in the top two (yes that makes five, but the 2nd from the top will be a mixture and the top one is probably just honey, but might have some brood). This means I can split by the box and distribute the resources fairly evenly. With two ten frame deeps it is a much more iffy proposition. The top box is probably mostly honey and the bottom mostly brood so the resources are not evenly distributed at all and the top box might be ALL honey in which case they would be hoplessly queenless. With some practice, you migt be able to distinguish the likely hood by the number of bees and the weight of each box, but all in all, I'd stick with doing it with eight frame mediums where the distribution will be more even when you "deal" the boxes. 

Anything less than four eight frame mediums, in my experience, is not really strong enough to split and expect it to build quickly. If you make weak splits they languish before they finally get going. If you make strong splits they don't usually miss a beat. The queenless half goes to gathering the flow while they raise a new queen, and the queenright half continues to build a population. The bees are not idle in either case so things build up reasonably quickly. A weak split, though, will be struggling to make ends meet. A colony is an ecomony. It has to meet it's overhead before it can really prosper. If you make a strong split it can continue to prosper. If you make a weak split it has to struggle it's way back up to breaking even before it can prosper.

The ideal time for a walk away split is two weeks before the main flow. It will have the least impact on the honey crop and the queen will be well fed and well bred.


----------



## Acebird

Oh Michael don't be crazy...

A lot of what you said, I have already said and yet they tell me I don't listen.

On your site you mention that you can balance the hives by placing the queenless one in the original position. I have elected not do that which makes the queenless one a little weaker. I am not looking for a honey crop from the queenless hive. The reason I have done this and do it on purpose is it makes the queen right hive stronger and insures that you don't lose the queen right strong hive. In a couple of weeks that hive has replaced the brood and stores that got stolen and I feel you can safely split it again by the box. I haven't done it more than twice but I bet in my area I could do it three times and get away with it.

I think it is a crime that you offer years and years of experience for free on your site and when some of your wisdom gets repeated on Beesource by a newbie it is all of a sudden all wrong. My soul advice to every newbie is to not believe a word I say and go straight to MB's website and read and read and read. Then come back to beesource and see who is whacked or not.


----------



## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> I haven't done it more than twice but I bet in my area I could do it three times and get away with it.




_Only done it twice_
_Bet_
_Could_
_Get away with it_

That is an awful amount of qualifiers.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

This is what started this whole thread:


Acebird said:


> Bev, I can't see anything either so I just split by the box. Find the nest in a stack of mediums where the bees are going gang busters and split. Put another empty box on top with drawn comb. Just about every week you can split again during a good flow. You can even throw that box of pollen on top so you have 3 mediums. When you see the brown dust in the bottom of the tray you know the bees went into that box. Another great advantage of the SBB.


I don't see that what Ace wrote bears much resemblance at all to what is on Michael Bush's splitting page, here:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#walkaway

Note Michael's opening statement about _*making sure there are eggs and emerging brood in*_ _*each split*_.

Ace, instead of "_interpreting_" Michaels' advice, why didn't you simply provide a link? :scratch:


----------



## WLC

Thinking about using mediums only, I can see why one would say that the brood nest could be spread between say 2 mediums.

I have used mediums, and it's a reasonable assumption.

However, I still examined each frame, did some scraping (naturally) and selected which frames go where.

So, in summation, I think that someone could simply split a 3 medium hive into a 2 medium colony and a 1 medium colony with a new medium added on top.

However, it doesn't have the same 'feel' as working with a deep body split. 

I wouldn't put it in the 'crazy' category. It's more pedestrian. Maybe 'wonky' is a better term.


----------



## Acebird

Michael Bush said:


> If I have eight frame mediums (which I do) and four boxes are full of bees and honey, it's a sure thing there is brood in three of those boxes and honey in the top two


WLC again you missed it. Four mediums not three for the first split. Three mediums on the second split and maybe three mediums on the third split. Depends on probability.


----------



## Acebird

Michael Bush said:


> it's a sure thing there is brood in three of those boxes and honey in the top two.


Rader, what does this mean? I suggested there would be brood in two of the adjoining boxes. Can you tell the difference between a box of honey and a box of brood? I can. I learned enough from MB's site to do it and succeed against all the nay sayers. I must have learned it all wrong.


----------



## WLC

So, you're 'dealing' a four medium hive into two new colonies.

Got it. As long as you deal each medium alternately, it could certainly work. Medium 1 and 3 to hive A. Medium 2 and 4 to hive B.

So, Acebird, what's the fuss all about?

That's not crazy. It's not even very exciting to be perfectly honest. :scratch:


----------



## BeeCurious

WLC said:


> That's not crazy. It's not even very exciting to be perfectly honest. :scratch:


That's what I suggested earlier.

What's crazy is the continuation of this thread. (and the augmentation of Ace's post count causing new members to believe that he is one of the trusted forum elders.. )

Acebird, you're spilling your brains out... save some for next year. Trust me, you'll need them.


----------



## David LaFerney

It's often second year beekeepers who want to split like crazy - and rightfully so. If you made it that far, then why not build up your hive count?

So, Please allow me to point out what the rate determining factor is when you "split like crazy" - not bees - not honey - not queens for sure - hive setups can be built or bought - comb. Drawn comb is what will determine how many hives you can go into winter with - you can't build it yourself, and you can't buy it (as far as I know). Strong hives are better at drawing comb than weak hives - and even they can only make good progress during a strong natural nectar flow. So have strong hives in build up mode when your flow starts. 

If the goal of splitting like crazy is to increase your hive count guess how many frames of drawn comb you can have by Oct 1 - divide that by how many frames you think you need for each hive to winter on - and that will tell you exactly how crazy you need to get.

If you overshoot, then plan to combine in September.


----------



## WLC

"If the goal of splitting like crazy is to increase your hive count guess how many frames of drawn comb you can have by Oct 1 - divide that by how many frames you think you need for each hive to winter on - and that will tell you exactly how crazy you need to get. If you overshoot, then plan to combine in September." 

O.K. . I'll bite. What is the minimum number of frames possible to overwinter a nuc successfully?

This could get crazy.


----------



## KevinR

With or without feeding/sugar block? I've overwintered baby mating nucs, which probably amounts to 2 medium frames.


----------



## WLC

Wow! That's really crazy!


----------



## Ian

>>The ideal time for a walk away split is two weeks before the main flow. It will have the least impact on the honey crop and the queen will be well fed and well bred.<<

Yes, once the honey starts flowing that sprawling brood nest starts to get top heavy with honey, then the box divisions are not so uniform.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

"_Crazy_" is a continuing theme with Ace. From a September 2012 post:


Acebird said:


> The first year I killed the hive in the spring by not having enough ventilation.
> The second year I mixed up two colonies and lost one of the queens.
> The third year (this year) I[HIGHLIGHT] split like crazy [/HIGHLIGHT]and ended up with three hives from the one remaining in the spring.



So after "_splitting like crazy_" again in 2013, Ace ended up with 4 hives, then gave one away, and currently has 3.

:gh:


Probably best to cut out Ace and get your splitting advice direct from the _horse's mouth_, so to speak: 
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm :lookout:

(No disrespect to Michael Bush intended. He is a horse owner / breeder as well as an accomplished beekeeper)


----------



## WLC

Regardless, there has to some kind of record out there for getting the most successful splits from a single hive.

You know, someone who actually 'split like crazy'.


----------



## KevinR

There was a article out on Google for 1000 hives from 100 double hives.. So 10 to 1 split. For the first split....

http://caspianapiaries.com/presentation/100_1000_hives.pdf

2 frame per split with a raise your own queen... A month or more later, you should be able to do another split... Repeat as your location and weather allows...

You could speed that up a lot with purchased queens, but it would increase your cost....

So depending on how well your nucs/splits do.. You "could" end up with several thousand nucs/hives from 100 hives in a season... I'd consider that to be pretty crazy and they may or may not have enough time to put up stores.

You would probably have to plan on *heavy* feeding and potentially heavy loses... Personally, I'd be struggling for locations to keep all those bees... LOL!


----------



## Mike Gillmore

Michael Bush said:


> I find a strong split is better for making increase (a small split works for a mating nuc). So in eight frame mediums (what I run) that's four boxes minimum full of bees and honey before I'll split. In deeps that's two ten frame deeps.
> 
> With some practice, you migt be able to distinguish the likely hood by the number of bees and the weight of each box, but all in all, I'd stick with doing it with eight frame mediums where the distribution will be more even when you "deal" the boxes.


Michael,

You have explained very well how to do "box" walk away splits. It sounds like "dealing" the boxes can yield satisfactory results if you know what you are doing. 

In a large operation where you have a limited amount of time to do splits on hundreds of colonies I completley understand the necessity of adopting this method of splitting without checking for brood, and then hoping for the best.

For a hobbyist or sideliner with 10, 25, or 50 colonies would you recommend using this method as well? It just seems to make more sense to me to be absolutely sure there are at least some eggs or young larvae in each split. I can pull 2 or 3 frames from a box in less than a minute and confirm that there are eggs present, or that a frame with eggs needs to be added. Seems like that would not be an unreasonable amount of time invested in order to increase my chances of success. 

I know both methods will work, but I would like to hear your thoughts on when you would recommend someone do a box split without checking for brood.


----------



## WLC

Let's not put any restraints on resources for the moment.
If you had all of the resources you needed, what's the theoretical limit for the number of increases (colonies) you could make from a single strong hive in one season?

My feeling is that it's a lot more than ten to one.

I already know that its an exponential growth curve. I also know that they sell caged queens from April to September.

If you all the empty drawn frames you could want, there's nothing to stop you from putting them into a colony, and then taking them out once they contain brood.


----------



## KevinR

You also need to keep in mind that MB treats his box as a unit or at least he did last time I emailed/talked to him. He had 9 frames in a 8 frame box. 1 frame permacomb with 1.25" frames for the other 8.

As far as I know he still runs mating nucs, regular splits, etc... But that's what he's adjust to be his current configuration too. Bottom Feeders, Top Entrances, etc...

At least that's how I understand it to be.


----------



## KevinR

WLC said:


> Let's not put any restraints on resources for the moment.
> If you had all of the resources you needed, what's the theoretical limit for the number of increases (colonies) you could make from a single strong hive in one season?
> 
> My feeling is that it's a lot more than ten to one.


I think it would depend on your area. If you took a frame of brood every 2-3 weeks, while feeding/supplimenting.... You'd need to do the math... Do 1 frame splits with purchased queens..... You would have a bell curve effect...

100 to 1000, then 1000 to 2000, then 2000 to 4000, then 4000 to 8000..... Which could be done in 16 ish weeks....

But I don't think it's even close to realistic.. some of those wouldn't lay enough frames to replace what your taking, some queens would be superceeded, etc... 

But if everything work in your favor and you were in a perfect bee vacuum, you could probably make a "ton" of bees... But you'd need drawn comb, equipment, etc...


----------



## Ian

>>hundreds of colonies I completley understand the necessity of adopting this method of splitting without checking for brood, and then >>hoping for the best<<

You mean working the averages


----------



## WLC

'You would have a bell curve effect'

It's more of an 'S' or logistic curve once you get past the exponential phase and the season ends.


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## KevinR

WLC said:


> 'You would have a bell curve effect'
> 
> It's more of an 'S' or logistic curve once you get past the exponential phase and the season ends.


It's a a perfect bee vacuum. 

Realistically, you'd need to figure out the average number of hives that have a spare frame of brood every x period of time. You'd need to calculate the average number of splits that "take"... Then in the next year, you'd have to calculate your winter loss, then how many on the first split.. Which "could" be 10 again...

It could also be a combination of weak and strong splits....

So you should have a jagged upward trend... But it's all theorycraft...


----------



## David LaFerney

WLC said:


> "If the goal of splitting like crazy is to increase your hive count guess how many frames of drawn comb you can have by Oct 1 - divide that by how many frames you think you need for each hive to winter on - and that will tell you exactly how crazy you need to get. If you overshoot, then plan to combine in September."
> 
> O.K. . I'll bite. What is the minimum number of frames possible to overwinter a nuc successfully?
> 
> This could get crazy.


That depends on your climate and your judgement. I've overwinter 4 frame mediums, but I don't like it. 8 works just fine - that is the smallest I would do here, but it's a personal judgment call. But if you don't have any more comb it is a challenge to prevent swarming if they do well. Smaller is harder of course. 

Even if you aren't worried about next spring each hive still needs some minimum amount of comb to winter on. If you were to be successful in some crazy ten fold split plan (which really is not likely) At some point you will think that you might have gone too far - and you will be right.


----------



## WLC

I thought that it only takes a week for a queen to fill an empty drawn frame, that was placed into a hive, with brood.


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## KevinR

WLC said:


> I thought that it only takes a week for a queen to fill an empty drawn frame, that was placed into a hive, with brood.


Are we still talking theorycraft? A "good queen" can lay 1500-2500 eggs per day based on the random information I remember. So she shouldn't have any problems laying out a deep or a medium in a few days...

But... You need to leave enough frames of bees behind to hatch.. otherwise the hive will dwindle off. That's why I said every x number of weeks.. i.e. one frame every 2-3 weeks. 

If I'm trying to make a strong split or one that I'm 100% sure will make it. I pull different frames from multiple hives, then combine into a single nuc. If I'm feeling froggy, I'll do the small splits. They can take off like a rocket or they sit there and poke along. Eventually they get to a point where pulling a frame of brood doesn't hurt them much... But obviously, you can't pull the only frame of brood that she's made..


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## WLC

Well, for a strong hive, pulling out a frame of uncapped and capped brood shouldn't be too great of a burden.

Neither should providing a shake of bees to a new nuc where you've placed those brood frames with a new caged queen.

I don't think that's theory craft. We just don't have numbers on how often you can do that, or when you can do something similar to the new nucs.

We're not splitting like crazy just yet.


----------



## Acebird

Ian said:


> Yes, once the honey starts flowing that sprawling brood nest starts to get top heavy with honey, then the box divisions are not so uniform.


That is when you want to throw another box on that is mixed or CB with drawn comb and foundation. Without a QE on the queen will lay in the comb and the bees will draw out the foundation. The brood nest keeps sprawling. The only timing issues are like any other hive, make sure they don't run out of room.


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## David LaFerney

A queen by herself can't produce any brood at all. A queen and a cup full of bees might be able to support 3-4 square inches of brood - just guessing - even then it would depend on the availability of food and other resources. Such a hive would take a long time to get up to speed. The strong splits that Michael Bush mentioned are able to produce a maximum amt of brood almost immediately. 

Somewhere in between is some tipping point where a colony is able to grow at an economical rate which allows it to become viable to overwinter on time. The later in the season it is when a new colony is established the larger it needs to be to accomplish that.

It would be an interesting experiment to start a colony with a laying queen and a cup of bees every week in the spring and track their progress for a year. I wonder if it has been done?


----------



## lazy shooter

I'm interested in splits. I've only tried one. It was a walk-away split and it failed. The cause was operator error, because I don't think I had a frame in the split with young enough eggs. My question is: Can one split in the summer without there being an ongoing flow? Can you split and feed if there is enough time for the split to build winter stores. My area usually has a good late summer to fall flow from broom weed. Broom weed is a mixed blessing. It produces large amounts of honey, but the honey is not tasteful. In my area honey need to be harvested before broom weeds bloom, which is usually in mid August to September. If I could split in July and catch the fall flow of poor tasting broom weed honey it would be perfect for my ranch bees.


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## Acebird

If you add a queen you need nourishment so they can raise brood. If you don't add a queen you still need nourishment to develop a good queen. Either you provide the honey and pollen up front or you feed.


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## Ian

Lazy shooter,
That sounds like a fantastic plan. I'd use a mated queen to ensure you have as much time as possible for her to establish that fall time nest. 

I'd do just simply that , split the boxes. Your summertime population will be big, your weather will be favourable. A commercial beekeeper this summer did exactly that, as he was trying to build back numbers after a heavy die off this past spring. His idea was to manage large double hives into the flow to catch the clover canola honey flow and split the boxes after that flow in August. 
What he did was while pulling honey, with fumes, he pushed the bees down through the supers and through the first brood box. He collected the honey boxes , added a queen excluder over the single to hold the queen down into the single, added a box or two of empty comb above the excluder and that second brood box ontop. He came back later that night and stripped the brood boxes off the top, took them to another yard and added queens. 
He claimed it worked well, the hives had a varience of uniformity for the first few weeks but after the queens re established their nests with all those summer bees the hives looked identical in strength later that fall. 
His fall honey crop was compermised to a box or two further but he was able to build back his operation internally to where his numbers usually are at.


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## Michael Bush

>For a hobbyist or sideliner with 10, 25, or 50 colonies would you recommend using this method as well? 

It all depends on how much time you have to spend. If you have time, it's nice to be certain of things.

>It just seems to make more sense to me to be absolutely sure there are at least some eggs or young larvae in each split. 

I do look for queen cells as I'm splitting because that's the only situation where there MIGHT not be some eggs or young larvae in each split. If they swarmed yesterday... or last week...

>I can pull 2 or 3 frames from a box in less than a minute and confirm that there are eggs present, or that a frame with eggs needs to be added. Seems like that would not be an unreasonable amount of time invested in order to increase my chances of success. 

Certainly if you have the time.

>I know both methods will work, but I would like to hear your thoughts on when you would recommend someone do a box split without checking for brood. 

Walk away splits just before or just after the start of the main flow are pretty fool-proof (as long as they didn't just swarm). Walk away splits in a dearth are most likely going to be dissapointing at best (queens underfed and/or queens who won't fly out to mate and/or a lack of drones). That's really the "when" I'm worried about. 

But I think by "when" you mean other circumstatnces like beginners or smaller operators. Nothing wrong with being careful if you have time and skills. Some beginners are much less intimidated splitting by the box... unfortunately for most reliable results it does take some judgement. You need a strong hive in four boxes and good timing with the flow.


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## Mike Gillmore

Michael,
Thank you for your point by point explanation. 

Ace,
I concede, you accepted the challenge and delivered. There are a few qualifiers for a blind box split to be successful, but it appears to be a viable option for someone with experience. 

I've done pretty well with splits by taking the extra 60 seconds per box to confirm the splits have eggs, so I'll continue doing it that way in the future. Most of the beekeepers I know are hobbyist or sideliners and they all take the extra time as well, as explained here on MB's site. 



> *
> The concepts of splits are:* You have to make sure that both of the resulting colonies have a queen or the resources to make one (eggs or larvae that just hatched from the egg, drones flying, pollen and honey, plenty of nurse bees).
> *A walk away split.* You take a frame of eggs, two frames of emerging brood and two frames of pollen and honey and put them in a 5 frame nuc, shake in some extra nurse bees (making sure you don't get the queen), put the lid on and walk away. Come back in four weeks and see if the queen is laying.


The key words for me are in the first paragraph, "make sure". For me to be "sure" that the split has eggs or a queen, I have to actually see one or the other, and not just guess. That's just the way I'm wired I suppose.

Maybe on a commercial level splitting needs to be carried out differently due to the time factor, I've just never been exposed to it before.


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## Acebird

I have no interest in the commercial level, strictly the hobby level and not a side liner hobby either. What I do is certainly not the most productive way of doing a split but it is a way for some people, crazy or not.


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## Acebird

Michael Bush said:


> You need a strong hive in four boxes and good timing with the flow.


And I think you mean medium boxes not deeps. With deeps there is more a chance that the whole broodnest is in one deep.


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## oklabizznessman

Acebird said:


> And I think you mean medium boxes not deeps. With deeps there is more a chance that the whole broodnest is in one deep.


I've had three deeps and brood even in a medium super above. Swore there had to be two queens but never could find her. My kinda girl!

I think there's a lady on here went from 55 hives to 150 in one year by splitting. Now that's splitting! In deeps I believe.
She's the one I'd follow if I wanted to learn how to split not a 3 hive guy.

I'm using her recipe for substitute and the bees eat it so fast the HB are confused. LOL


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## Acebird

oklabizznessman said:


> She's the one I'd follow if I wanted to learn how to split not a 3 hive guy.


I never really intended this thread to be a "learn how to split" but I suppose every version of splitting was bound to be mentioned. You should follow anyone you have confidence in. I have.


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## Michael Bush

> Can one split in the summer without there being an ongoing flow? 

Results will be more unpredictable, but of course you can. 

>Can you split and feed if there is enough time for the split to build winter stores. 

I've always found that "pushing the envelope" is not the best way to keep bees... but usually you can, if you feed and if robbing doesn't start...

>My area usually has a good late summer to fall flow from broom weed. Broom weed is a mixed blessing. It produces large amounts of honey, but the honey is not tasteful. In my area honey need to be harvested before broom weeds bloom, which is usually in mid August to September. If I could split in July and catch the fall flow of poor tasting broom weed honey it would be perfect for my ranch bees. 

Can you count on the fall flow?


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## Daniel Y

My area has rabbit brush that starts blooming after the first frost. it is one of the most dependable blooms we have. it is not moisture dependent being a dessert plant. Loads of pollen I have yet to evaluate it as a nectar source but the local beekeeping club reports it as a staple for the bees to have honey to overwinter on. It is also not a honey desirable for consumption. This is what every bare spot of dirt looks like in our area when ti comes into bloom.


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## Lauri

Just my opinion, but splitting a hive can be as basic as Ace's OP, although I *highly* discourage this method. It can be very precisely done during different times of the year with predictable results. Timing coincides with technique. 
I'd say the difference between beekeepers in this thread is like: someone who can barley make toast without burning it, or a five star chef running an entire restaurant. Take the advise from the chef.


-133 colonies overwintering in 2013-2014 for honey production and rearing VSH Northern Carnie survivor hybrid queens
-80% TF with brood breaks and VSH genetics as mite control, 20% T using Apivar or Hopguard
-8 frame deep equipment


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## Rader Sidetrack

Lauri said:


> I'd say the difference between beekeepers here is like: someone who can barley make toast without burning it, or a five star chef running an entire restaurant. Take the advise from the chef.





Acebird said:


> I planted 50 pounds of potatoes this year as an experiment and got 100 pound yield. There is nothing like a potato that come out of your own ground. [HIGHLIGHT]I will give the recipe to the wife.[/HIGHLIGHT]


Seems clear who the chief/chef/cook is!  I wonder who does the dishes? :lookout:

:gh:


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## Acebird

Lauri said:


> I'd say the difference between beekeepers here is like: someone who can barley make toast without burning it, or a five star chef running an entire restaurant.


You can point your nose as far as you want up in the air but the fact is some people who read my posts have similar interest as I do. It does seem to get the nose pointers out of joint.


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## KevinR

That's because your moronic notion of beekeeping makes our heads hurt..... And we feel obligated to point out those flaws so the newbie beekeeper doesn't think that your the beekeeping messiah...

I never once in all my posts said that your "idea" wouldn't work. I said it was stupid and lazy. You have 3..... THREE hives.... And you can't be bothered to take 5-10 minutes to look into a hive to see what is in there???? 

I also said that I'd concede to a large beekeeper not having the time to do it... Although, I would expect most of them to plant a queen or a cell....

But you..... you have no excuse and your trying to pan it off as a "good" idea. It's not... There is no reason that you shouldn't know what is in your hive and know what's going into the split... (Period)


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## Acebird

You can point your nose as far as you want up in the air but the fact is some people who read my posts have similar interest as I do.

So sorry your nose is out of joint.


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> You can point your nose as far as you want up in the air but the fact is some people who read my posts have similar interest as I do.


And these people whould be whom? I noticed that you have exactly 1 friend in your profile. All this after 2.5 years on the forum and over 7,000 posts.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Apparently Ace's splitting technique has been "_refined_"  for the 2013 year.

In 2012, he did concede that checking for eggs/young larvae was indeed a good plan - but was planning to do so _*after *_making the split!

From an April 2012 thread on Ace's previous walkaway split:


Acebird said:


> LOL, I have no idea if there is eggs/young larvae in each of the divides. I [HIGHLIGHT]plan on going in these boxes today and see what is there.[/HIGHLIGHT]


:gh:


(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)


Hey, its snowing here in east TN, and not much fun outdoors ....


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## KevinR

I'd just be happy if Acebird added his number of hives and years of beekeeping to his signature. And stop referring to his 3 hives as a "operation". Acebird you a poser that is intentionally misleading people. When called it on you dodge the question. Then when someone has to dig up post where you spilled the beans, you ignore it like it never happened....


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## Lauri

Don't get your hackles up Ace, I never mentioned your name. My nose is right where it belongs. My post was a general statement. Take advise from those that are_ actually _successful, not those that simply theorize with no experience or measurable level of success. Beesource is good for learning what to do, and what *NOT* to do. It's up to readers to determine the difference, come to their own conclusions and implement methods according to their own ideas, climate and strain of bees.

LOL, I actually LIKE food with a bit of char on it..like BBQ. I just don't use the smoke detector as an oven timer....Maybe it's a left brain-right brain thing.


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## sqkcrk

I do not have to respond to every Post or Poster I disagree w/ or don't understand. I am not responsible for anyone misled by someone elses example. I do not need to save anyone from anyone. Anyone who has a headache brought that upon themselves. Expand your ignore list. You will be happier and beesource will be better.

This Post soon to be Deleted.


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## BeeCurious

> And you can't be bothered to take 5-10 minutes to look into a hive to see what is in there????


There's some underlying issues which I believe influence a lot of Acebird's decisions... 

1. Like some, he can not see eggs 

2. Like some, he is "queen blind", he can't find queens

3. Like some, he may be more fearful bee stings than others

"Non-intervention Beekeeping" is working for him...


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## David LaFerney

Acebird said:


> I never really intended this thread to be a "learn how to split" ...


That may be true, but you presented a "method" in such a way as to make people think that you had more experience than you actually did and had performed it successfully already. Intentional or not it was misleading - and unlikely to be very successful as presented. 

You shouldn't be shocked, amazed, or indignant when others jump in and dispute your claims. 

Furthermore it's fortunate that people do jump in when they think something is bogus or beesource would be a cesspool of misinformation instead of the great resource that it is.


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## Acebird

I got over most of #3.




> It's up to readers to determine the difference, come to their own conclusions and implement methods according to their own ideas, climate and strain of bees.


This part I agree whole heartedly.



> I never mentioned your name.


 You might want to read what got posted in #188. Maybe it was just a glitch.


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## rwurster

I worked for a 1500 hive outfit that did splits by making 3 lines of 25 pallets with a row of empty pallets next to them for splits. All I did was follow the beekeeper who cracked the 2 deep brood boxes, looked up into the top box to ensure there was capped brood on at least 3 frames, looked down into the bottom to see that there was capped brood on 3 frames and if there was I moved the top deep onto a bottom board on the empty pallet adjacent to the mother hive. I also removed the feeder from the top box. Two guys behind me came and added a frame of foundation, added a deep and moved the feeder to the new top box and put a cover on the new hive. Split accomplished. This is not the beekeeper's regular routine, he was having major issues with package suppliers at the time. He typically starts from packages and has rarely done walk away splits in the past 40 years.



Daniel Y said:


> My area has rabbit brush that starts blooming after the first frost. it is one of the most dependable blooms we have. it is not moisture dependent being a dessert plant.


Same here, however last year even the rabbit bush bloom was weak and noticably shorter than usual.


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## Acebird

David LaFerney said:


> Intentional or not it was misleading - and unlikely to be very successful as presented.


Please explain, seriously. I don't see how I presented it to be misleading. I do have first hand experience with doing it. I do not want to misrepresent what Michael Bush has on his sight which is why I provided my source when I was asked. I do not see how his method and my method is different but if it came across that way I would like to know. There are people who are not on beesource that ask me questions about bees that I do not want to mislead.


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## LSHonda310

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Apparently Ace's splitting technique has been "_refined_"  for the 2013 year.
> 
> In 2012, he did concede that checking for eggs/young larvae was indeed a good plan - but was planning to do so _*after *_making the split!
> 
> From an April 2012 thread on Ace's previous walkaway split:
> 
> 
> :gh:
> 
> 
> (click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)
> 
> 
> Hey, its snowing here in east TN, and not much fun outdoors ....


what about your own comment in 2012 ACE?

Please explain, seriously.


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## Lauri

I am in and out mule deer hunting this week and just don't have time to thoroughly read through or respond to this post..I see it has many views and opinions, as usual
I was planning to write something this winter about various methods of making nucs from early spring until late summer. It depends on _why_ you are making the nuc. Increases, swarm control or mite control. Walk away nucs have their place when made early in the season, under certain conditions. I also have a method of taking it to an extreme level. 

Experienced already know all this: _*Controlled *_brood breaks are the only effective ones for mite control. Adding a queen cell, swarm cell or virgin to a new nuc doesn't give a brood break unless the newly made up nuc has only capped brood close to emerging, with no eggs or larva. Otherwise the old and new capped brood can have a slight overlap, providing a hiding place for residual mites. A broodless period to me is no capped brood whatsoever, for a period of time sufficient for the bees to groom off the mites throughly. A walk away nuc would provide this time, whereas an inserted capped cell may not.

Although they will accept a capped queen cell without a waiting period, Little things like leaving the nuc material (Frames of bees and brood) queenless a few days before adding a queen cell can make a difference.(Of course remove the self made queen cells before adding your capped cell) You may have noticed a queenless nuc will generally remove or eat all the eggs within a day or so. Why? I am guessing it is to consume protein for the production of royal jelly to raise a new queen. Allowing the newly made nuc to consume the eggs will increase the time of your broodless period by a few days, since those eggs _would_ have been the last capped brood to hatch. How long is long enough for groming behavior to be effective? I can't answer that yet, but I believe every extra broodless day can make a difference.


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## David LaFerney

Acebird said:


> Please explain, seriously. I don't see how I presented it to be misleading. I do have first hand experience with doing it. I do not want to misrepresent what Michael Bush has on his sight which is why I provided my source when I was asked. I do not see how his method and my method is different but if it came across that way I would like to know. There are people who are not on beesource that ask me questions about bees that I do not want to mislead.


_"I made the comment that you could split every week but maybe it should be every other week.

And Kevin, never have I feed a split. In a flow (my area anyway) you don't need to."_

You probably didn't intend for this to be misleading but I interpret this as two statements which imply authority and experience "Never have I feed a split" and "you don't need to." It sounds to me like you are saying that you know what you are saying - but splitting every week or two is radical enough that you need to be able to back it up with some tangible proof of concept - and it is certainly a misrepresentation - even if unintentional - of what Michael Bush recommends on his website. I don't seem to be the only one who read it like that.

Maybe you should make a point of fully disclosing your degree of experience. Everyone here was once a first or second year beekeeper and there is no shame in that or in having 3 hives - or however many you have. If you do that it will at least be clear that you are not trying to represent yourself as having more personal experience than you actually do and maybe people won't pile on as much.

BTW - beginners DO have a lot to add to the conversation, but it is more in the form of enthusiasm, curiosity, "book learning" and thinking outside the box - not so much practiced personal experience.

Sorry, but as has been pointed out many times before this is a text based system, and lacks all of the subtle clues which help to clarify intent. We need to all make a point of being as transparent as possible.


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> I do not want to misrepresent what Michael Bush has on his sight which is why I provided my source when I was asked. I do not see how his method and my method is different but if it came across that way I would like to know. There are people who are not on beesource that ask me questions about bees that I do not want to mislead.



Why don't you just provide a link to the topic on M. Bush's website rather than attempting to twist _his_ information to support _your_ ridiculous claims. We all know about his excellent website. We don’t need you acting like some kind of Delphic oracle.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> I do have first hand experience with doing it.


Doing what? 

Increasing from 2 hives to three or four... 




> There are people who are not on beesource that ask me questions about bees that I do not want to mislead.


Why are they so privileged?


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## Acebird

David LaFerney said:


> _"I made the comment that you could split every week but maybe it should be every other week.
> 
> And Kevin, never have I feed a split. In a flow (my area anyway) you don't need to."_


Yes, my first comment was a little aggressive for splitting by the box but I have done it. You may recall that Mr Bush said that there could be as much as three boxes of brood in a 4 box hive. The 4 boxes are crammed full so I add an empty box to each split because I don't want them to swarm, one of the reasons I do the split in the first place. The half that has the queen is going to lay eggs in the empty box and most likely is still laying eggs in the other boxes as the brood comes out of the cells. Admittedly the successive splits get risky to just walk away. So what if they are risky, you can always go from a walk away split to a non walk away split at a later date. The world doesn't come to an end a week after you did the split.
Where I feel the real judgment comes in for those that can't find queens and can't see eggs is to figure out which half the queen is in. Maybe some of you recall that I posted a poll on "where's the queen" after a box split and although there were not many people that took part in the poll the majority got it right. That tells me there is a learned skill that people like myself can use.

My second comment "never have I fed a split", Mr. Bush does't feed a split by the box either. You can't call it a walk away if you are feeding. Every walk away is not feed no matter who does it. I am very thankful that Michael chimed in on this thread and mentioned he looks for queen cells. That is a good tip to remember.

I can't imagine that anyone new would read of an unorthodox method presented on beesource by a poster and not look at the profile. Is it really necessary that I profess in every post I make how many hives I have and how long I have been doing it when this info is in my profile? That is quite of bit of redundant typing. I will leave that for Rader.


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## Acebird

Nabber86 said:


> We all know about his excellent website.


How selfish of you. Many new people don't.


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## LSHonda310

Acebird said:


> I am very thankful that Michael chimed in on this thread and mentioned he looks for queen cells. That is a good tip to remember.


This is what everyone is trying to say also, look in your hive to see what you have!
What if there was no brood at all and your hive was queen less?


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## Acebird

Four boxes high, crammed full of bees in the spring time, expanding like crazy, and you think there will be no brood or a queen?

Here is the bottom line, I do look into the hive. I already said this but I don't pull frames.
Now if you go to Michael's cite there is no mention of looking in the hive, just deal the deck. He is using probability and he is probably right. I take the extra step and look from the bottom. I don't think he mentions looking for queen cells either so I am thankful for that input.


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> How selfish of you. Many new people don't.


As I posted above:



Nabber86 said:


> Why don't you just provide a link to the topic on M. Bush's website rather than attempting to twist _his_ information to support _your_ ridiculous claims. We all know about his excellent website. We don’t need you acting like some kind of Delphic oracle.


I am not the one who incorrectly interprets and plagiarizes someone else's work. By continually doing this you have ample opportunity to post a link. In all sincerity, your proliferation of forum activity makes you better suited to inform the masses. 

I don’t reference Bush's material (if I did, I would certainly provide a link), therefore I dont have the opportunity to provide a link. Unless I post the following canned response to every forum question that is ever asked, your remark is irrelevant: 

*Check here for the answer to your question: **http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm* 

I suppose I could create bot to do this for me and exceed your post count in a matter of days.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Maybe some of you recall that I posted a poll on "where's the queen" after a box split and although there were not many people that took part in the poll[HIGHLIGHT] the majority got it right.[/HIGHLIGHT] That tells me there is a learned skill that people like myself can use.


Here is the thread: Take the pole, queenless or not

One of the highlights, post #3, from Michael Bush:


Michael Bush said:


> Not enough information. Which is in the original location? Any? None? Which ones where split? All of them?
> 
> Foragers will tend to return to the old location. If there is no hive in the old location, they will tend to drift to the hive with a queen...


If Mr Bush can't tell whether there is a queen in a hive _simply based on your photo,_ who else can? :scratch::lookout: :lpf:


:gh:


... what are the odds of ....


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## WLC

How many different direct and indirect methods are there for confirming the presence of a laying queen, or any queen at all?

Is a statistical/probability approach any less valid?

I suppose the least invasive method is to just tip the body on its side, and then look up from underneath.

I don't do that often because one, I get tired of squatting/crouching/leaning over, and two, my suit kinda raises my voice an octave when I do this.

So, I generally remove a frame and look through the rest while standing upright.

But, there's something to using a statistical approach.


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## KevinR

I usually work alone, so I remove a frame. If I had someone with me.. I'd look in the top and tilt the box for someone to spread the bottom of the frames and look. 

I still don't see the point/purpose on a small number of hives.. It's really not worth the risk... Even if the risk is only a box of bees.. For me, time is money. If I have to come back later and put in a frame of eggs in 1 out of 4 splits.. I should have just put the frame in all the splits from the beginning. You have a potential 25% loss from not taking the time. That doesn't even take into account the chance the queen gets ate by a dragonfly on mating flight.

"For me, time is money...." and no I don't mean it in the literal sense of the saying.. It's time I could have been fishing, watching tv, something else... Or it could literally be money...


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Now if you go to Michael's cite there is [HIGHLIGHT]no mention of looking in the hive[/HIGHLIGHT], just deal the deck.


Here is Michael's comment on a walkaway split:


> *A walk away split.* You take a [HIGHLIGHT]frame of eggs, [/HIGHLIGHT] frames of emerging brood and two frames of pollen and honey and put them in a 5 frame nuc, shake in some extra nurse bees (making sure you don't get the queen), put the lid on and walk away. Come back in four weeks and see if the queen is laying.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#walkaway


Unless one has _ESP_,  how can you know your split has eggs if you don't look? :scratch:

:gh:


I pointed out in post #150 that Mr Bush advised looking for eggs, but apparently Ace was too busy posting to see that link.


----------



## KevinR

I walk away split is just the process of not giving them a queen or a queen cell, while providing them with the required components to make their on. 

It has nothing to do with splitting the hive into 4 equal pieces from a box stand point and hoping you got eggs....

Now, if you took those 4 boxes and did 2 frames of brood, 2 frames of pollen, 2 frames of honey, and 2 empties for each box... Then walk away.... You made sure the bees had what they need. 

As I posted a mile or so up in the thread... I then move the "weakest" split to the original location... Just like MB says on his site... 

Ideally a large number of your bees are out making honey... There's no reason to put a small "packed" box back in it's spot unless your looking to encourage a swarm.


----------



## Nabber86

WLC said:


> Is a statistical/probability approach any less valid?



It's only valid if you collect enough statistics _up front _to prove the validity before you use the method. How long do you think it would take to form a solid data base taking all of these variables into consideration?: 


amount of brood
queen location
brood pattern / location
presence of eggs
pollen
honey stores
Number of frames in your box
Number of frames that you are splitting out

That's what? An 8 x 8 matrix with 40,320 (8!) possible outcomes (not counting several other variables that I missed) and then you would have only a single data point for each outcome, so you would have to repeat your experiment many many times to get enough data to create a valid statistical method for performing a walkaway split. And then what would your level of confidence be in your statistical method? 

Greatly improving your probability of success by simple observation, that only takes a few minutes, is the only valid way to proceed. 

Taking an ignorant shot in the dark is not "statistics".


----------



## sqkcrk

If you don't care about the outcome there is no reason to follow a method w/ a higher probability of successfully producing a queen and a viable colony. But if you are planning on success then looking for all of the right parts in the right proportions is key.


----------



## WLC

Don't forget that there are combinatorial probabilities involved as well.

You alternately deal mediums to new hives.

You just need enough brood, stores, and bees to make it to the new hive for the 'crazy split' to work.

Frankly, if you used all shallow equipment, the odds would improve considerably.

Splitting a 5 body shallow hive would work better than splitting a 4 body medium hive, for example.


----------



## sqkcrk

There is a difference between what should work theoretically and what someone has done and does do on a routine basis. All this mental gymnastics is just so much what's the polite word for it. Unless you put words to action and publish the outcome.

Back when nectar flows were more dependable and colonies came thgrough Winter strong w/out feeding patties or syrup a friend of mine went thru a yard of 10 fourway pallets of double deeps equalizing brood between the top and bottom box, making sure there was honey, capped brood and open brood in each box, shaking bees and queens down into the lower box and installing an excluder before setting the other box and lid on top.

The next day je returned w/ 10 more pallets and placed a caged queen on each quarter of each pallet. He then took the top boxes off the hives and set them on the empty pallets. Then thru a cover on the excluder. The parent pallet hives were set on his truck and taken away. While the "new" hives were placed where the old ones had been.

Doing that proved quite successful. The goal being to quickly produce 40 new colonies w/out looking for queens.


----------



## Ian

That's what we do


----------



## WLC

That's not crazy enough.


----------



## Ian

When we get behind, we start just splitting boxes. Anything with three frames of capped brood in the top box while looking from underneath. We like to make things "perfect" but sometimes that does not always work out

I have not followed most of this thread but what I have read from Brian's posts, nothing too extrodinary or crazy as been mentioned


----------



## rwurster

"shaking bees and queens down into the lower box and installing an excluder before setting the other box and lid on top"

That's a very reliable method. I equalize resources and let the split sit for a few hours/overnight before introducing a queen cell, move the parent colony and put the split in the original location. I've had less than 15% failure rates and any hives that remain queenless get re-combined with weaker splits. My walk away splits have 75% success rates (when done in mid-late April).


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> If you don't care about the outcome there is no reason to follow a method w/ a higher probability of successfully producing a queen and a viable colony. But if you are planning on success then looking for all of the right parts in the right proportions is key.


There is a lot of truth to what you say here Mark but going back to probability some people are afraid to do splits of any kind *so they don't do them.* If they got over the fear of failure (it is mostly psychological) they could do a split by the box and get over it. The basic number is 75%. Isn't that what you got Mark and felt good about? That number has more to do with raising your own queen then a walk away split by the box.


----------



## Acebird

WLC said:


> Frankly, if you used all shallow equipment, the odds would improve considerably.
> 
> Splitting a 5 body shallow hive would work better than splitting a 4 body medium hive, for example.


Looking at numbers only you are correct. I have no experience with shallows. There is a person I have in mind that doesn't believe bees like to cross the bottom bar in the brood chamber so if anything is true about that, shallows may not follow the numbers. someone would have to go out on a limb and do the experiment.


----------



## Ian

My split success rate is up around 95% based solely on the performance of the queen I put in. And for some of the queen failures off the start , the emergency cells that are made during the splitting process buys me a bit of insurance. Those hives lag behind a bit.


----------



## sqkcrk

rwurster said:


> "shaking bees and queens down into the lower box and installing an excluder before setting the other box and lid on top"
> 
> That's a very reliable method. I equalize resources and let the split sit for a few hours/overnight before introducing a queen cell, move the parent colony and put the split in the original location. I've had less than 15% failure rates and any hives that remain queenless get re-combined with weaker splits. My walk away splits have 75% success rates (when done in mid-late April).


Do u ever equalize, let set, split w/out iding queen, and stick cells in each half?


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> shaking bees and queens down into the lower box and installing an excluder before setting the other box and lid on top.....The goal being to quickly produce 40 new colonies w/out looking for queens.


How the frig did he know he was shaking queens down into the lower box without looking for queens?


----------



## WLC

If you use a queen excluder, you can be sure that you didn't shake a queen into a lower box.

Make a funnel, you can shake them into a package box, and do as you wish.


----------



## Acebird

Ian said:


> My split success rate is up around 95% based solely on the performance of the queen I put in.


I am not going to provide a link to MB's site for every split imaginable. After meeting the man and talking to him, spending a considerable amount of time on his website, I don't believe there is anything that has been done that he hasn't done. It would be a rare case.

Every beekeeper has a better way. Are there any beekeepers that have a better way or could add some tips for splitting by the box and raising there own queens? Probably not, it is too simple. Even a caveman could do it.


----------



## rwurster

@sqkcrk:

I actually have put 2-3 cells in each split and let the queen-right side's queen destroy the 2 inserted cells. Some folks don't like the 2 cell thing I do but I have ended up with 3 times the cells I actually need so its a way to distribute my resources. I usually omit that part on a message board to keep the antagonism to a minimum. I suppose I should add that I've been keeping bees for 1 year 8 months (22 hives tf-OA) and it has been an extremely steep learning curve with all losses well deserved on my part. I will say that I have learned from my mistakes and enjoy working with other established beekeepers because mentors take YEARS off your learning curve even if they don't agree with how you manage your own bees. Knowing the basics is priceless.

The method you described works very well and one can do it quickly with a minimum of error. I don't idle the queen, I have even done it without letting the split know they're queenless.


----------



## KevinR

Acebird said:


> How the frig did he know he was shaking queens down into the lower box without looking for queens?


Really? You shake every frame... no bees on the frame = no queen on the frame.. rinse and repeat for each frame in the 2nd box... As you said above, even an Acebird can do it..


If you are really cool... You move all the open brood above the excluder... Then you can split with all nurse bees, who moved up through the excluder.... The queen will backfill all the emerged brood from the capped brood that you placed below the excluder... 

That's how I build cell builders sometimes... At least how I like to catch the nurse bees anyway..


----------



## sqkcrk

That's how we talk on beesource? I thought this was supposed to be family friendly discussion. Is that the way families talk arouynd the table on Thanksgiving? "Please pass the ....ing turkey?


----------



## rwurster

KevinR said:


> That's how I build cell builders sometimes... At least how I like to catch the nurse bees anyway..


That's how I make my cell builders also. I bought 10 excluders and thought I had wasted my money lol


----------



## Acebird

KevinR said:


> Really? You shake every frame... no bees on the frame = no queen on the frame.. rinse and repeat for each frame in the 2nd box... As you said above, even an Acebird can do it..


I see what he is doing now but the queen could be anywhere. On the cover, on the side of the box, maybe even on the pallets or even fly off while you are shaking the frames. Beekeepers with 500 hives don't worry about losing one queen. People with one or two hives do. Oh, that's right they don't count.


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## KevinR

hmmmm 

1. A fat laying queen doesn't fly very well. If she is feeling like an adventurer, she may glide away. Why do you care anyway? Your making a "walk away split and don't look in the boxes anway.
2. More to the point, once you know where to look for the queen at, she's pretty easy to find and worst case you know what frame she's generally on. 
3. The box will be empty, you brush the bees off the box.. Always, look on the lid when you take it off or smack the bees back into the hive.
4. Your not taking the bottom body off the pallet, so who cares if she's running around the bottom.

I've never lost a queen doing this... I've done it 20-30 times over the last 4 years. Your more likely to squash her moving out the frames than lose her shaking into the box. You shake, shake, smoke, shake... and the bees line up in the bottom box watching, while flipping their little middle finger.

I generally do this when I'm migrating from deeps to mediums, or when I'm setting up to capture nurse bees for a starter.

As with most things, pay attention to what your doing and it's not a big deal.


----------



## David LaFerney

Acebird said:


> I see what he is doing now but the queen could be anywhere. On the cover, on the side of the box, maybe even on the pallets or even fly off while you are shaking the frames. Beekeepers with 500 hives don't worry about losing one queen. People with one or two hives do. Oh, that's right they don't count.


You could kill a queen any time you remove a frame, but if the queen ended up outside of the hive she would climb in through the entrance and end up where you want her anyway. If by some chance she ended up in the wrong half of the split, then the queenless half would make a queen, and your store bought queen is wasted. Either way you have at least as good a chance as in any walk away split. If you don't have time - or the ability - to find the queen this is a good way to go. Even if you do, it still is.


----------



## Ian

Acebird said:


> I am not going to provide a link to MB's site for every split imaginable. After meeting the man and talking to him, spending a considerable amount of time on his website, I don't believe there is anything that has been done that he hasn't done. It would be a rare case.
> 
> Every beekeeper has a better way. Are there any beekeepers that have a better way or could add some tips for splitting by the box and raising there own queens? Probably not, it is too simple. Even a caveman could do it.


Hey Brian,... Maybe you didn't catch my drift, .... that was the wrong response ... really ??


----------



## Acebird

David LaFerney said:


> You could kill a queen any time you remove a frame,


David lets start here: "Practicing non-intervention beekeeping". Your hives won't look like mine and the chance of rolling a queen in my hive is much greater.



> 2. More to the point, once you know where to look for the queen at, she's pretty easy to find and worst case you know what frame she's generally on.


She is pretty easy for you to find not so for many, many people unless you don't LISTEN to what other people say.


----------



## Acebird

Ian said:


> that was the wrong response ... really ??


OK forget what I said but I don't know why it is wrong.


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## KevinR

Acebird said:


> you don't LISTEN to what other people say.


Blah blah blah... Come back when you take some of your own medicine... I said you can find her or *know *what frame she's on. It's not my fault that your to stubborn by buy a flash light and some reading glasses. 

*wha wha* I can't see the eggs... *wha wha* I can't see the queen.... 

Carry on in your little naive world... You know best and the other 95% of the people that posted on your post are wrong.... Not to mention the now 15 people that have sent me a private message about you...


----------



## sqkcrk

Ease up Kevin. It isn't worth the stress.


----------



## David LaFerney

Acebird said:


> David lets start here: "Practicing non-intervention beekeeping". Your hives won't look like mine and the chance of rolling a queen in my hive is much greater.


Do you use langstroth frames? Do you keep them pushed together like you are supposed to? Do your boxes grotesquely violate bee space? 

I have worked with hives that had not been inspected in a long time, and it's not really a big deal. You know the queen *Could* be anywhere - but 99% (<<made up number) of the time she is in the brood nest on a frame of brood, and if you use normal care you won't hurt her. I have killed exactly one queen that I know for sure, and possibly another one that disappeared and my error was the best explanation I could come up with - and honestly I know that I'm a little on the rough side with my bees. Your odds of not killing your queen are pretty good if you use normal care.

It sounds like splitting by the box appeals to you because you don't want to pull individual frames - is that it? You should just say that if it is.

BTW, I can't usually see eggs without taking my veil off, and looking for the queen is usually a waste of time - you rarely need to do either.

And how exactly does "Split Like Crazy?" mesh with "non-intervention beekeeping?"


----------



## Mike Gillmore

If an extra 30 minutes were spent with a few hives in the beeyard when doing spring splits rather than spending that half hour babbling on BeeSource (no offense Barry), the point that many are trying to make here would be crystal clear. 

Yes, blind splits CAN be made in the spring by dealing the boxes, and a certain degree of success CAN be achieved. But if some of them end up queenless, all the time that was "saved" will now be spent trying to clean up the mess. 

If one has a little extra time available, make the extra effort and improve your odds of success. If a new beekeeper is intimidated by a robust spring hive, perhaps it's time to dive in and overcome that fear. Yes it can be very uncomfortable for a beginner but it's part of beekeeping and a bridge they need to cross at some point.

If you are not able to see eggs (sometimes I have trouble seeing them too when my glasses are covered in sweat), you can still be very certain eggs are on a frame by looking at larvae, jelly. and other patterns on the comb while inspecting. It doesn't take long, just a quick glance. With practice it gets easier to read a frame.

Just my 2 cents on this. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


----------



## Honey Hive Farms

KevinR don't let anyone get to you, we get smack too just trying to help. You just have to rise above the negative people and be the best you can be and do what you do.

Put the sun behind you and it help to see the eggs. Splitting will come, just take a chance an do it and learn from your mistakes.

NOOOO worries..............Happy Thanksgiving


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## KevinR

Oh I'm fine... Just took the turkey out of the oven and cracked a bottle of pumpkin pie mead...


----------



## Acebird

Mike Gillmore said:


> Yes, blind splits CAN be made in the spring by dealing the boxes, and a certain degree of success CAN be achieved. But if some of them end up queenless, all the time that was "saved" will now be spent trying to clean up the mess.


What I don't understand is if the blind splits are working for me why do I have to do it another way? Just to prove a point? I do not see the big deal with a queenless hive. Just remove the hive and dump all the bees. They go find another hive and all it good.

David, can you see that splitting by the box is less intervening than pulling frames and shaking. To me is seems much less than any other method. My glasses are always covered in sweat which is half the reason the magnifiers didn't work and the other half is in order to get the frame in focus the veil has to be touching the frame and the bees don't like it. Now if the advice is to pull off the veil after I have the whole hive disrupted I am not taking that advice even if I wasn't splitting.


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> What I don't understand is if the blind splits are working for me why do I have to do it another way?


I'm still baffled by this thead.... 

I fail to see anything special about turning 2 hives into 3.


----------



## David LaFerney

Acebird - so what you are saying then is that you split by the box because your vision is too poor to do doing a frame by frame inspection for young brood anyway. Fair enough. You should just say that.

BTW, "splitting by the box" isn't radical at all. I was calling shenanigans on splitting the same hives every week or two. Also - if you have done something successfully one time then it is misleading to say this works for me. It implies ongoing success. It would be more accurate to say it worked for you. If you don't want to be misleading that is.


----------



## GLOCK

BeeCurious said:


> I'm still mesmerized by this thead....
> 
> I fail to see anything special about turning 2 hives into 3.


Great entertainment ACEs always brings out the best in threads :applause:
I think it's all preference for me I'd make as many as I could out of one hive or what ever I wanted. And if I did a walk away I would check both side to check to make sure there where eggs .


----------



## WLC

" I was calling shenanigans on splitting the same hives every week or two. "

I think it's entirely possible to take out two or three frames (and maybe a shake of bees), put in two or three empty drawn frames, and then repeat it every week or two. Especially if it's on a large strong hive, and you're making a new split with caged queens.

It's not really shenanigans if it works. Even the most trivial beekeeping management practice carries risks anyhow.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Of course, "split like crazy" as promoted in this thread does *not *involve purchased/caged queens. The topic of the thread is "walkaway splits" where the bees are expected to raise their own queen.


----------



## WLC

Since when?

You could do a walkaway split with caged queens.

Frankly, It's not even crazy.

Want to split a hive in two? Buy two caged queens. No need to guess.

Got bad eyesight? $50 is a lot cheaper than prescription glasses.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Michael Bush has been referenced many times in this thread. Here it is AGAIN:



> *A walk away split.* You take a frame of eggs, two frames of emerging brood and two frames of pollen and honey and put them in a 5 frame nuc, shake in some extra nurse bees (making sure you don't get the queen), put the lid on and walk away. Come back in four weeks and see if the queen is laying.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm


If you're not expecting the bees to raise a queen, the issue of whether you have eggs in the split, or whether you can see them, is not relevant. So what's up with the prescription glasses comment? 

:gh:


----------



## WLC

So what if Mike Bush doesn't use caged queens when doing walkaway splits?

Maybe someone doesn't want to guess if or where there's a queen in the split?

As for the eyeglass issue, I got tired of trying to keep reaching up under the veil the put my reading glasses in position.

The whole message of this thread is that there's more than one way to do this.


----------



## BeeCurious

This forum defines "walk away split" as:



> Walk-away split: Frames with eggs and worker bees are removed from a queenright hive and installed into an empty brood chamber or nuc. The bees should create a queen cell out of a suitable egg. Once the queen hatches, successfully mates and returns to the hive, the hive will be queenright. Another option is to remove one complete brood chamber from a hive that has newly laid eggs in it, including bees, and move to a new location for the start of a new hive.


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?237911-Beekeeping-Glossary


----------



## WLC

It's a good thing most of us can think for ourselves then.

Exactly how long does it take to pull out a cork and put a cage into a frame?

Not even a minute.


----------



## sqkcrk

People can't resist looking at a roadside wreck. And then eyewitnesses end up arguing about how it happened and who was the cause.


----------



## BeeCurious

WLC said:


> It's a good thing most of us can think for ourselves then.
> 
> Exactly how long does it take to pull out a cork and put a cage into a frame?
> 
> Not even a minute.



Pulling a cork in a timely fashion will not change the accepted definition.


----------



## WLC

Well then, perhaps Acebird and Mike Bush aren't doing walkaway splits if they're alternately dealing medium hive bodies to make the splits?

That's not in the 'forum' definition either.

Get over it. I certainly am.


----------



## KevinR

The "walk away" part is the bees raising their own queen.... Other wise, it would just be called a split..... 

You are walking away and letting the bees do their thing....


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> perhaps Acebird and Mike Bush aren't doing walkaway splits if they're alternately dealing medium hive bodies to make the splits?

You can see in post #3 of this thread that Ace is talking about a "walkaway split" and expecting the split to raise their own queen.

As for Michael Bush, there are 5 versions of splits discussed on his splits page linked above. Most of the other splits are either made as a existing queen (swarm) cell matures, or with a caged/introduced queen.


----------



## WLC

I have my own beekeeping library fellas.

I understand the concept.


----------



## Barry

"I have my own beekeeping library fellas. I understand the concept." . . . but I just like to stir the pot.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> It's a good thing most of us can think for ourselves then.

:gh:


----------



## Mike Gillmore

Acebird said:


> What I don't understand is if the blind splits are working for me why do I have to do it another way? Just to prove a point? I do not see the big deal with a queenless hive. Just remove the hive and dump all the bees. They go find another hive and all it good.


You're free to do spits any way you like, you don't have to prove anything. If you are satisfied with your results then life is good for you. 

A queenless hive might not be a big deal to you, but it is to me. If I go through the effort of splitting a hive, my goal is to have 2 productive colonies making honey for me. If one of them ends up queenless then I have just lost a potential 50-60 lbs or more of honey if I have to shake out that colony. I just dumped $250-$300 out on the ground. Plus any future potential and value that colony held has been lost. I consider the extra few minutes looking at frames as time well spent to increase my odds at being more successful with the split. 

If I didn't care about the lost honey revenue and I was content to shake queenless colonies out on the ground, then I might jump on your bandwagon. To me that is a complete waste of time and resources.


----------



## David LaFerney

WLC said:


> " I was calling shenanigans on splitting the same hives every week or two. "
> 
> I think it's entirely possible to take out two or three frames (and maybe a shake of bees), put in two or three empty drawn frames, and then repeat it every week or two. Especially if it's on a large strong hive, and you're making a new split with caged queens.
> 
> It's not really shenanigans if it works. Even the most trivial beekeeping management practice carries risks anyhow.


That's the thing - walk away splits, not adding a queen or even a cell.


----------



## sqkcrk

Barry said:


> "I have my own beekeeping library fellas. I understand the concept."


What about practicing what is preached?


----------



## WLC

Been there, done that.

Are we arguing about a definition?

No queen cells allowed, no caged queens allowed, you must check for brood?

It's absurd.

If you really want to walk away from that split, and be certain that the task has been accomplished, there's no rules against making sure it has a mated queen.

Do the 'rules' say that you have to wait up to two months before that 'walkaway' split has a laying queen in it?

Nope.

Frankly, I don't know why they even call it a walk away split if you haven't made sure it's queensright.

That's more like, "I hope that I can walk away from that split".


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

WLC said:


> I have my own beekeeping library fellas.
> 
> I understand the concept.


Not much evidence of that _understanding _is being demonstrated ....

:gh:


----------



## WLC

Here's the functional definition of a walkaway split: it's simply an unbalanced split.

If you are taking out frames to balance out the bodies, or even shuffling bodies to achieve that balance, then you're really just making regular variations of a split.

In a walkaway split, in late winter/early spring, a beekeeper would take double deeps hives, separate them in two, put in new queens, and then add a new deep on top of each hive.

In a month or so, they would repeat the process.

That's why they were called 'walkaway'.

You could produce splits quickly, then repeat the process after having 'walked away'.


----------



## Daniel Y

Mike, The idea that all is lost is not necessarily true. certainly if you are small time and can spend the time and attention to limiting the damages. You can salvage a queenless colony even after a couple of months and well into laying workers.

To large of an operation and yo do not have the time to spend on a single hive. to small and you do not have enough resources. But I did it by manipulating just 4 colonies this past summer.


----------



## Barry

Just so we're clear, that wasn't originally posted by me!

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291085-Split-like-crazy&p=1024294#post1024294


----------



## WLC

Barry:

It's highly unlikely that anyone on Beesource invented the walkaway split.

It's probably as old as the Langstroth itself.

My own thoughts, it was a method used for swarm control and making increases in late winter/early spring.

Are you trying to tell me that Mike Bush invented it?


----------



## sqkcrk

It depends on what the definition of "is" is.


----------



## WLC

Yeah, but those beekeepers who were making actual walkaway splits really were 'splitting like crazy'.

And, they probably had to deal with planting season at the same time.


----------



## Acebird

WLC said:


> they probably had to deal with planting season at the same time.


And three full time jobs and two part time jobs.

I don't know what the approved definition for a "walk away split" is but its name implies you do something and you don't do anything else until it succeeds or fails. No checking for this or that, no fussing what so ever. So if your going to throw a queen in it has to be released right then and there at the time of the split. You want to buy queens and throw them in go ahead. For me I don't see the need.

I have done "walk aways" four times in two seasons. When can I say it works for me instead of worked for me? I do them for a number of reasons. They are easy, they don't require much time at all, they curb swarming and they have resulted in increasing hive counts to MAINTAIN 3 HIVES so there is a good probability that I will have one hive in the spring. I am not looking for performance, but as yet, I do not see how it affects the performance of the queen right hive. If I did nothing to the parent hive in the spring it would most certainly swarm. You have to do something.


----------



## WLC

Acebird said:


> And three full time jobs and two part time jobs.


There it is then.

The real reason why beekeepers make unbalanced/walkaway splits.

There simply aren't enough hours in the day.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

Daniel Y said:


> Mike, The idea that all is lost is not necessarily true. certainly if you are small time and can spend the time and attention to limiting the damages. You can salvage a queenless colony even after a couple of months and well into laying workers.
> 
> To large of an operation and yo do not have the time to spend on a single hive. to small and you do not have enough resources. But I did it by manipulating just 4 colonies this past summer.


You just helped to reinforce the point I was trying to make. How much *time* and effort did you invest in those 4 colonies to correct the queenless hive? By the time you got that colony straightened out, was it able to give you the same amount of honey as it would have if it had produced a queen right from the start? I've salvaged queenless hives and typically by the time they are back on track the flow is over, and I usually end up robbing resources from other colonies or feeding them. Measurable loss in potential is also loss in revenue.

I agree, *all* is not lost if you are able salvage a queenless colony. But there will be *some* measurable loss in time and honey yield. My point again is, if an extra couple of minutes checking frames at the time of a split can prevent a queenless colony from ever happening, it is time well spent. 

I'm sure everyone looks at this from a different perspective based on the number of colonies they have and their management style. If I have a dozen hives and plan to make a handful of splits in the spring then I want to do everything I can to reach as close to 100% success as possible, and not take any risks that are unnecessary. That's how I look at it. Not for everyone, but it works for me.


----------



## WLC

I can see how a beekeeper can take 100 overwintered double deep colonies and turn that into 400 colonies in time for the main flow using walkaway splits.

It's just one management technique.

I do agree that it's about productivity as long as you plan ahead and have the resources on hand.

Oh, and you don't get stuck on definitions. 

However, I don't see walkaway splits as the best option after the main flow is over. More traditional splits would make more sense then.


----------



## KevinR

I'd rather have a known good laying queen from a quality stock any day of the week. 

Letting the bees raise their own is a very valid option, I do it quite frequently. However, if you have the choice. Your ~20+ days ahead. You know she's going to be mated well, made it back, and laying a good pattern.

If your doing this "prior" to the flow, generally the weather isn't that great and you may not have have the drone density you'd like. I'd rather have a good summer mated queen vs one that was early in the season.


----------



## Acebird

KevinR said:


> If your doing this "prior" to the flow, generally the weather isn't that great and you may not have have the drone density you'd like. I'd rather have a good summer mated queen vs one that was early in the season.


We think quite differently Kevin. The impulse is far greater to swarm in the spring. I read somewhere that the more drones that mate with the queen the better. I feel that would happen when the urge is the greatest. I can't imagine that the urge for the drone would not coincide with the urge of the queen, timing wise. So spring would be the best time in my thinking. Mating later on in the season reduces the probability for the new hive to succeed. Swarming after flows taper off does not make any natural sense.


----------



## WLC

If your allowing your splits to raise their own queen, it's more like two months + before the split is productive enough to be of value in a flow. You have to include the time it takes for brood to hatch and mature as foragers along with the time it takes to produce a mated laying queen.

The weather can easily turn bad so that the timing is thrown off and you miss the main flow.

That kind of uncertainty, along with swarm mitigation as well as a much faster rate of making increases are some very good reasons for using caged queens when making up walkaway splits.

Despite being unbalanced splits, the only requirements are enough bees, drawn frames, laying queens, and equipment.

Yes, you can use feeders during the whole process.


----------



## KevinR

Acebird said:


> We think quite differently Kevin. The impulse is far greater to swarm in the spring. I read somewhere that the more drones that mate with the queen the better. I feel that would happen when the urge is the greatest. I can't imagine that the urge for the drone would not coincide with the urge of the queen, timing wise. So spring would be the best time in my thinking. Mating later on in the season reduces the probability for the new hive to succeed. Swarming after flows taper off does not make any natural sense.


Then maybe you should take the time to read what I "wrote" then take the time to read what other people have "wrote". Then you will see that lots of people have piss poor results with "early" queens, which is "generally" weather related........ I responded to "prior" to the flow... Which means you'd need the queen back and laying... "PRIOR" to the flow... Which means an "early" queen, that was raised in "EARLY" conditions....

This "generally" means cold and wet flying days.... It "generally" means that the other hives haven't been built up.... Unless your going out into the wild and feeding/supplementing all the bees in a 2+ mile radius.... That means that you "generally" have less drones in the air...... 

Soooooo again.... If you take the time to work on your reading comprehension skills and not on your general blathering skills... You might learn something from the people that are trying to help you....


----------



## BeeCurious

*I can't believe this is still a topic....*



KevinR said:


> If your doing this "prior" to the flow, generally the weather isn't that great and you may not have have the drone density you'd like. I'd rather have a good summer mated queen vs one that was early in the season.


:thumbsup:



Acebird said:


> I can't imagine that the urge for the drone would not coincide with the urge of the queen, timing wise.


OK... and if there is cool/cold rainy weather (as there usually is in the Spring)? What happens then? Nothing!


----------



## KevinR

Oh I might also add that your "walk away" split isn't taking advantage of "swarming" behavior.... your forcing them to create emergency cells.

Additionally, if you manage your hive "correctly". You "generally" won't have issues with swarming.....


----------



## WLC

I completely forgot about Acebird!

At least I feel that I understand that there's a better way to split like crazy using walkaway splits.

Letting them make their own queens or using queen cells doesn't seem to be such a great way to do it.

It takes too long.


----------



## KevinR

WLC said:


> It takes too long.


It depends what your trying to accomplish. If your trying to do what Lauri suggested earlier in the thread, regarding a brood break... It's viable for that.... But I'd rather have a known queen, in a known mating nuc, to replace mine any day of the week... Vs letting them raise their own..... Which is perfectly viable.... Just far from ideal..


----------



## KevinR

Food for thought... I contacted a "professional" queen breeder, which he responded to a couple minutes ago...

My email...
"What time of year will you start accepting orders for 2014 queens? What will be the prices for 2014?"

His response...
"We can accept orders at any time. The problem is, how early do you want them? I can not supply spring queens until there are enough drones to make sure they are well mated. "

I might also add that he's from "FLORIDA" and not from New York... I would "assume" that it's a bigger issue for you, than it is for him....


----------



## WLC

Currently, Beeweaver has a ship date for queens the week of April 7. The same goes for Olivarez.

Where can one get mated queens for a date earlier than the first week of April?

Hawaii?


----------



## crofter

Kevin, I have to give you credit for attempting to educate someone who seems very refractory to it! One thing about it is that even if he eventually and grudgingly absorbs some of it, in the process a lot of others who ever had any doubt about the question, will have the issue forever clear in their minds. It may be a while, but dont be surprised to see your position being spouted off as original thinking by some who so roundly denied its cautions.

Rader is very good at collecting and displaying examples of this amazing phenomenon!:applause:


----------



## Acebird

*Re: I can't believe this is still a topic....*



BeeCurious said:


> OK... and if there is cool/cold rainy weather (as there usually is in the Spring)? What happens then? Nothing!


You always seem to be worried about this. It doesn't matter what the weather is when you split it matters what the weather is going to be 3 or 4 weeks from when you split. That is when you are going to have warm days and plenty of drones and a full blown flow.


----------



## Lauri

WLC Posted: 'Currently, Beeweaver has a ship date for queens the week of April 7. The same goes for Olivarez.

Where can one get mated queens for a date earlier than the first week of April?'

Here is an example of my opinion of first crop or early queens:

I can get 'tomatoes' to grow and ripen in the greenhouse in late winter/early spring too, but they have no flavor and are basically worthless. 

In comparison:

Queens raised when days are short and weather is unpredictable are also technically 'Queens' but prime quality is almost impossible to get too early in spring. A person is *much* farther ahead to raise some 'vine ripened' mid/late summer queens and overwinter them for early springtime use. You also have the advantage of the locally mated factor.

Greenhouse tomato:










Vine ripened summer tomato:









Everyone is thinking about and preparing for spring of 2014. Think a little farther into summer of 2014 and plan to rear a few queens to overwinter for early 2015 use. I have about 45 'Monsta tomatoes' in small nucs overwintnering right now. Michael Palmer has about 200. 

Don't you wish you had thought of doing that this year?  You wouldn't be looking for a place to buy queens right now, would you?


----------



## Acebird

KevinR said:


> Which is perfectly viable.... Just far from ideal..


Quality Queens
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesafewgoodqueens.htm

When you have as much experience and knoweledge as MB I will start believing what you say. Until then...


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

*Re: I can't believe this is still a topic....*

> It doesn't matter what the weather is when you split it matters what the weather is going to be [HIGHLIGHT]3 or 4 weeks [/HIGHLIGHT]from when you split. 

Hmmm. :scratch: Probably best to use a _reliable reference_ rather than Ace's comments.  

According to Michael Bush - the _Beemath _page- queens can emerge in as little as 15 days (from the date the egg is laid.) So your walk away split queen _could _be emerged in as few as 12 days after a split.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm

Also note that drones take considerably longer time than queens to be ready to mate. :lookout:


:gh:


----------



## rwurster

I did 4 walkaway splits last year and the problem I ran into was that the colonies all plugged out (backfilled) the split deep. I had to add a 2nd deep with 4 frames of drawn comb and 6 frames with starter strips to each split on week 4. Week 5 still no sign of eggs/brood I was pondering combining or trying with another frame of brood and upon a thorough inspection discovered that each split did have a queen but she had no where to lay. I actually had to extract just to clear the honey out of the brood nests. We got almost 150 pounds of honey out of those 4 splits. Two weeks later I had beautiful brood patterns and the splits were able to be put on melons for pollination at the beginning of July.

Next year im going to keep 2 pallets of hives whos sole purpose is to be split like crazy (from Paul Mcarty). Having queen cells ready to go is going to be the cornerstone of my multiple splits per year plan and walkaways will be for if I need to split and don't have queen cells or I just don't have time.

Edit: I agree with the late summer queens, I'm going to do Mike Palmer's method (hope that's the right guy) of overwintering my weaker colonies as nucs with a late summer queen next year.


----------



## Acebird

Rwurster, if you go way back in this thread you will see that I modified Michael's deal the deck method and placed an empty box of comb on each split. Just saying, you might try that.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

*Re: I can't believe this is still a topic....*



Acebird said:


> It doesn't matter what the weather is when you split it matters what the weather is going to be 3 or 4 weeks from when you split. That is when you are going to have warm days and plenty of drones and a full blown flow.


In 4 weeks the queen has already emerged, mated, and is laying eggs. You need good flying weather and lots of *mature* drones 2 weeks after the split. Read the link again.


----------



## WLC

*Re: I can't believe this is still a topic....*

Lauri:

I do understand your point. But, my only current option for overwintering would be using nucs.

What's unusual about the Beeweaver queens I have is that they're the kind of hybrids that I can't produce here in Manhattan.

So, I'm pretty much dependent on Beeweaver. Yet, it's not such a big deal in my eyes to get their early queens.

In fact, it's one of those interesting side notes in Honeybee genetics.

So, while their virgin queens are Italian/Buckfast hybrids, they're open mated.

Here's the interesting part: feral drones in Texas have been reported to fly earlier than domestic ones.

So, if I want some of that 'feral swarm' attitude, I would go for their earlier queens.

If I wanted something more domestic, I would get their later ones.


----------



## KevinR

Acebird said:


> When you have as much experience and knoweledge as MB I will start believing what you say. Until then...


Your blind zealotry is amazing and scary at the same time. For your sake, you better hope that MB never gives dixie cup of coolaid. For the rest of us on Beesource, we'll probably be voting that it's a Big Gulp Bladder Burster...

So what do you think happens when you make your early split and the weather gets down to cluster temps? What happens when your only viable egg was at the bottom frame and the rest of the brood and food is at the top of the frame? You didn't bother to equalize your splits so half your foragers returned to the original location..... What happens then?

Also, whoever tagged this thread as "Acebird Follies" made me laugh...

Oh... And before you think I'm anti MB.... I've read and enjoy most of his posts, his website, and I bought his book....


----------



## Lauri

OMG...to funny


----------



## KevinR

*Re: I can't believe this is still a topic....*



WLC said:


> the kind of hybrids


What are you talking about? They just have bees that they continually graft from for the last x number of years... No different than anyone else that grafts from a "survivor" stock and open mates...

I don't know what you mean by "hybrid".... If that's the case mine are feral, Russian, Italian, sunkist, minn hyg, vsh, hybrids... since I grafted from a bunch and I only graft now from the ones that open mated and survived...

As for their feral drones flying earlier, I don't know how much truth their is to that, I've never really looked into it. It could the gospel or marketing hype. It's probably just based on the "feral" hives having limited space and swarming out when the weather allows. You could do similar with letting a hive become congested. Either way, I expect that their mating areas are flooded with drones of their hives, regardless of temps. I've had drones in my colonies in the middle of Feb.. I don't know if they just didn't get kicked out or if they were laid over the winter in preparation for swarming/mating flights.


----------



## sqkcrk

*Re: I can't believe this is still a topic....*

Feral in Texas? Is that code for something?


----------



## KevinR

*Re: I can't believe this is still a topic....*



sqkcrk said:


> Feral in Texas? Is that code for something?


Spunky bees with attitude problems that people don't really want... *grins* But you'd have to dna/wing ID to confirm 100%...

Either way, I'm leaning more toward marketing hype...


----------



## WLC

It's not marketing hype. I've read the studies on feral genetics in the South West (including Texas).

I could see the feral genetics as soon as I lifted a frame from the early queen hive.

It's true. They're open mating Itlaian/Buckfast queens with some interesting results.

The earlier they're mated, the more likely you are to see hybrid vigor in action.

I think that something similar applies in the South East U.S. as well.

Perhaps making early walkaway splits of the type Acebird describes could produce similar results as long as there are feral colonies nearby.


----------



## KevinR

WLC said:


> I could see the feral genetics as soon as I lifted a frame from the early queen hive.


What does this mean? How do you see the feral genetics?


----------



## frazzledfozzle

*Re: I can't believe this is still a topic....*

I think in beekeeping terms worldwide a walk away split is a split made in what ever fashion you like but it is left for the bees to raise their own queen. That is the key to the walk away split. 
How many frames or how it's split isn't the issue it's the bees raising their own queen that is the key to the name walk away.

And no Michael Bush did not invent it.

It's weird how many people here will call a method a Michael Bush method or an Acebird method because thats where they first heard it but it's usually something that has been tried and tested thousands of times before over many years and in many countries.


----------



## WLC

It's just like Bruce Springstein said.

'Tramps like us, baby we were born to runnnn...'


----------



## AR Beekeeper

Ancient Greeks knew about removing queen and brood to make a split and letting the remainder requeen the colony. There is nothing new under the sun.


----------



## sqkcrk

Except they called her a King Bee and believed in spontaneous generation from the body of a dead animal.


----------



## Acebird

*Re: I can't believe this is still a topic....*



frazzledfozzle said:


> It's weird how many people here will call a method a Michael Bush method or an Acebird method because thats where they first heard it but it's usually something that has been tried and tested thousands of times before over many years and in many countries.


I know dang well I didn't invent it.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Except they called her a King Bee and believed in spontaneous generation from the body of a dead animal.


He, he, Mark they were beekeepers. They had to explain something they didn't understand.


----------



## KevinR

WLC said:


> It's just like Bruce Springstein said.
> 
> 'Tramps like us, baby we were born to runnnn...'


Are you saying you like a bee that is nervous and running around on a frame? Is that what your looking for on your Hybrid vigor?


----------



## WLC

KevinR said:


> Are you saying you like a bee that is nervous and running around on a frame? Is that what your looking for on your Hybrid vigor?


"What does this mean? How do you see the feral genetics?"

That's how I see the feral genetics.

Ask me in 2 1/2 years, and I'll let you know if I like them.

I'm still waiting to see if they're actually resistant/survivors.


----------



## KevinR

Just so you know, I don't believe that a runny queen is a "feral" trait.. It's just something that most people don't select for.

I've had Italians, Russians, Ferals, purchased queens that did or didn't have that trait. I don't really see a big benefit of it. IMO, you should be looking for queens that ramp up fast, keep a large cluster during flow, but frugal in the winter with small cluster. They should be calm on the frame, shouldn't try to kill you when you open the box, and ideally express some anti-mite traits.

I try to select my queens based on hives with these traits.... I could care less if they are proper Italians, Carnies, Russians.... I'm not breeding for designer bees... I want bees that stay alive and make lots of bees. Lots of bees will generally mean lots of honey/pollination.


----------



## WLC

The workers are runny, not the queen.

They're Italian/Bucfast X Hybrid Swarm.

The queens are still Italian/Buckfast as far as I can tell.


----------



## frazzledfozzle

KevinR said:


> Just so you know, I don't believe that a runny queen is a "feral" trait.. It's just something that most people don't select for.
> .


Completely agree :thumbsup:


----------



## KevinR

WLC said:


> The workers are runny, not the queen.
> They're Italian/Bucfast X Hybrid Swarm.
> The queens are still Italian/Buckfast as far as I can tell.


That's what I mean... You select your queens to graft from based on her hive/offspring... If I take out of frame from my hive and they bees are running around like crack heads... That's not "ideal", it makes it difficult to find the queen. It makes it difficult to work the hive. 

As for if they are Italian/Buckfast... I'm sure they were originally, but they also had their own line for years... Something black.. or Midnights.. something like that... Anyway...

If your just looking at the queen.. You can't really tell what "race" they are by just seeing them. You'd have to mail them off to be genetic tested... I have Russians that are/were almost jet black to looking like 3/5 band Italians... I've grafted from the brightest yellow "cordovan" Italian that came out that were black/orange/light and everything between. Again, all you can know is "traits" of the hive that you grafted from, but unless your artificially inseminating the queens from some drone semen stored in a vault or an island... There's just no way to know what they are going to mate with once they leave the hive. 

If their "buckfast" stock was brought in 5 years ago, each year your bees heritage is "diluted" and it "could" be 5% Buckfast/Italian x 95% NWC because someone near them/you ran all foundationless frames with a laying worker... 

Instead of workers bees, they put out 50k drones which flooded the area...

So again, I "caution" anyone that claims to have a specific type of bee. I "believe" that the breeder has the best of intentions and will make every effort to flood the area with "good" drones, but like Vegas.. 

What happens in the air, stays in the air...


----------



## WLC

It's interesting that you mentioned NWCs. The original workers in the package fit that description.

The bees don't look like NWCs now.

I only need two things from BeeWeaver, resistant survivor stock, and a source of new queens.

That's it.


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## KevinR

Like I said, you can't really tell what the bees are.... I don't know what BeeWeaver does... But I wouldn't be 100% surprised if they don't buy bulk bees out of the almonds and add a queen....

I know that's what a lot of package producers do... Random Bulk bees with a "known" queen... whether they raise or buy is up in the air...

That's part of the reason I'm still buying queens... I haven't gotten a good mix of what I like... I have 2nd/3rd generation Russian grafted queens that are awesome at making honey/bees, but they are in full attack formation when you open their hive. I generally don't smoke my bees though, so maybe my expectations are too high. You definitely can't work them without a veil, but I don't think you should be opening/near any hive without a veil. Bees can be super nice one week, then demons the next... You don't know what robbing, or skunks they have been putting up with.

With that said.. If I could get the bees/honey/over wintering of the Russian derived with the Mellowness of some of my Italian derived... I'd be one happy camper...


----------



## Acebird

KevinR said:


> I haven't gotten a good mix of what I like... I have 2nd/3rd generation Russian grafted queens that are awesome at making honey/bees, but they are in full attack formation when you open their hive. I generally don't smoke my bees though, so maybe my expectations are too high. You definitely can't work them without a veil, but I don't think you should be opening/near any hive without a veil. Bees can be super nice one week, then demons the next...


Oh yeah, I can picture this now. You rip a hive a part and then take off the veil so you can see the eggs when you do a split.:scratch:


----------



## KevinR

Acebird said:


> Oh yeah, I can picture this now. You rip a hive a part and then take off the veil so you can see the eggs when you do a split.:scratch:


There's no way that you are truly this dense... I've come to the conclusion that your intentionally baiting me... Because Darwinism would have surely taken you out by now...

I "never" read.... *"NEVER"* work my hives without a veil... 99% of the time, I'm in a full ultra breeze suit... But, if I'm doing something "simple" I'll wear just a hat/veil. I don't even walk within 20ft of my hives without a veil. Do I think that they will get a wild hair and attack/sting me... Probably not... Is it worth the risk of them stinging me near the eye.... Nope...

This includes.... feeding, weed whacking, tearing the hive down, inspecting for eggs/larva, grafting new larva into cell cups. Most of the time, I don't even take the frame with me.. I just set the frame and cell bar on to a hive next to the mother hive... scoop out 48 larva, but the frame back, and close the top... Once you know what your doing... It doesn't take very long to do the grafting or other hive work.... 

One of these days, maybe you can get out in a yard and watch people work...


----------



## WLC

Kevin:

It's a lot easier for someone with a handful of hives to go the queen cell route or just order up queens.

I find the whole queen rearing operation to be interesting.

If I did want to raise my own queens in any significant number, I might order up a cloake board and maybe the JZ-BZ cups, etc. .


----------



## KevinR

I never said that ordering cells/queens as a bad idea... I still order queens and suggest that other people do also. You don't know what bees can do, or what you want without getting queens from multiple people.

You don't need the cloak board. I've never used one, but considered it. You can just make a strong queenless nuc with grafted larva to start your cells then combine it back to the original hive after 24 hours. Just make sure that you don't leave any rogue cells on the frames when you recombine the hive. That being said, you don't even have to graft... You can let them start cells, punch cells, cut comb, etc....

You put the "started" cells above a excluder which has a honey super above it, that's enough space that the rest of the hive will finish the cells... So brood nest > excluder > honey super > honey super with graft frame...

Come back on the 10th day and pull your capped cells to be placed in your mating nucs. I use a queen calendar to calculate my days, but I'm pretty sure the 10 days lets you pull any "slightly" older cells before they emerge in your finisher.

For an online calculator...

http://www.thebeeyard.org/queen-rearing-calendar/


----------



## Daniel Y

Mike Gillmore said:


> You just helped to reinforce the point I was trying to make. How much *time* and effort did you invest in those 4 colonies to correct the queenless hive? By the time you got that colony straightened out, was it able to give you the same amount of honey as it would have if it had produced a queen right from the start? I've salvaged queenless hives and typically by the time they are back on track the flow is over, and I usually end up robbing resources from other colonies or feeding them. Measurable loss in potential is also loss in revenue.
> 
> I agree, *all* is not lost if you are able salvage a queenless colony. But there will be *some* measurable loss in time and honey yield. My point again is, if an extra couple of minutes checking frames at the time of a split can prevent a queenless colony from ever happening, it is time well spent.
> 
> I'm sure everyone looks at this from a different perspective based on the number of colonies they have and their management style. If I have a dozen hives and plan to make a handful of splits in the spring then I want to do everything I can to reach as close to 100% success as possible, and not take any risks that are unnecessary. That's how I look at it. Not for everyone, but it works for me.


As far as time maybe 10 minutes per visit on three separate days so a total of a half hour to ave it. I also used it to my advantage as a cell starter finisher when I started grafting queens. ran into some problems with that so started adding frames of capped brood. this lead to eliminating the laying workers and eventually requeening once I did get some success with queen rearing. So it is a bit of a mixed bag what AI was doing when and why.

As for Honey loss. None in fact it outproduced a matching hive that remained queenright. I had read that a hive with no queen ends up with more honey because it is not spending any nectar on feeding. This hive indicated that may be true.

I recall last year that 9 out of 10 posts where useless to me because they all required taking resources from one hive to give to another. I only had one hive. I don't suggest it to anyone.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

Daniel Y said:


> As for Honey loss. None in fact it outproduced a matching hive that remained queenright.


Curious if that was one of the colonies that you pulled frames of capped brood from to support the queenless colony?



Daniel Y said:


> I had read that a hive with no queen ends up with more honey because it is not spending any nectar on feeding. This hive indicated that may be true.


That's very true, if the timing is right. I'll pull the queen and a few frames from a colony I like when it is at it's peak in the early part of the flow. Over the next 4-6 weeks of the flow they will produce a new queen, and during that brood break the work force will be concentrating on foraging for nectar rather than brood rearing. You have to time removing the queen so that the mature population begins to taper off at the end of the flow. 

It sounds like you are very attentive in your bee yard and you devote enough time to it and make things work. Shaking a queenless colony out on the ground to me is the last thing I want to do. Some don't think it's a big deal, but I do, and apparently you do too.


----------



## Daniel Y

MIke, no. I pulled frames from primarily my first and strongest hive. this was because if they did kick in and make a queen I wanted it from my best hive. I did add fraems of capped brood from other hives. In all I had about 12 to choose from. But I specifically wanted to see how this queenless hive did in regard to that claim a quenless hive will produce more honey. Other than 20 queen cells or so that we attempted to start in it we did not mess with it much. they did not do a very good job of starting the cells either that or we did not do well with grafting.

We had such a nightmare when it came to queens last spring it is mainly a blur in my memory. I can look it all up in my records.

These two hives where twin nucs last winter that came from a cut out. both with virgin queens that emerged during the cut out. So it was a great comparison opportunity. The queenless one blew the other away as far as honey production. the good news is it is now queenright and a full size booming colony.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

Hey, that's great. If you can repeat that process in your area you might be on to something.


----------



## Acebird

Mike Gillmore said:


> Shaking a queenless colony out on the ground to me is the last thing I want to do. Some don't think it's a big deal, but I do,



Mike please explain to me what is lost if you have a few hives.


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## Mike Gillmore

That's pretty easy. 

1 hive not producing honey - 40, 50, 100 lbs. Whatever is typical in your area.
Empty combs sitting in the shed are not being filled with nectar. 

If you have 4 hives and 1 of them ends up being shaken out, you just lost 25% of your honey production. Or, you just lost the opportunity to make 2 or 3 nucs to sell or give away if that's your business.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird, 

Do you have any further thoughts concerning your previous theory on splits? 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ory-on-splits&highlight=Acebird+theory+splits

I would consider your earlier theory to be a better fit for the so-called "non-intervention" practice of beekeeping.


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## sqkcrk

BeeCurious said:


> Acebird,
> 
> Do you have any further thoughts concerning your previous theory on splits?
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ory-on-splits&highlight=Acebird+theory+splits
> 
> I would consider your earlier theory to be a better fit for the so-called "non-intervention" practice of beekeeping.


This looks like bear baiting to me. Are you really [Bee]Curious or just teasing?


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## mathesonequip

duhh..I thought this was the split frame post.


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## Rader Sidetrack

> This looks like bear baiting to me. 

I read the whole thread BC linked.  :lookout: All 123 posts ...

Even though the thread is from 2 years ago, it reads just like yesterday! 


:gh:


.... how much have we learned ....


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## sqkcrk

Learned? All sorts of things about the people who have Posted, including me, nothing about how to keep bees.


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## KevinR

I didn't read all the posts of that 2 year old link, but it is pretty funny that he's still rambling on about "similar ideas" and still hasn't bothered to stop talking and try to learn from people willing to teach him...

Ah well..... Looks like Mark has two years on me with trying to beat some learning into Acebird's head.... Maybe we should try an alternate approach and have MB post a link on his webpage... 

"To whom it may concern, if you are Acebird and you asked the following questions on Beesource... Please see the answers covered in these following forum posts... XOXO Micheal Bush...." 

Muhahahhaha


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## Mike Gillmore

I've learned that entertainment and humor is the best medicine for cabin fever.


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## Acebird

BeeCurious said:


> Acebird,
> 
> Do you have any further thoughts concerning your previous theory on splits?
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ory-on-splits&highlight=Acebird+theory+splits
> 
> I would consider your earlier theory to be a better fit for the so-called "non-intervention" practice of beekeeping.


Ooh;, Mark mention's probabilities...



sqkcrk said:


> There are no gaurentees, only probabilities.


Wow, going back to 2011. I would think you guys would be proud of me getting over my fear of splits and actually doing them instead of letting the bees swarm. You guys are hard to please.


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## Acebird

Mike Gillmore said:


> That's pretty easy.
> 
> 1 hive not producing honey - 40, 50, 100 lbs. Whatever is typical in your area.
> Empty combs sitting in the shed are not being filled with nectar.
> 
> If you have 4 hives and 1 of them ends up being shaken out, you just lost 25% of your honey production. Or, you just lost the opportunity to make 2 or 3 nucs to sell or give away if that's your business.


Mike, don't get mad at me but I think you should take an accounting course. You can't count a loss that you never had. You are assuming you would have them if you didn't shake the bees out. That is not a loss. That is a fantasy.


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## WLC

Acebird:

I remember when they last gave you flak for splitting hives before drones were 'flying'.

Looks like you got the split you wanted.

Good for you.

In the end, they're your bees anyway.


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## Acebird

LOL, some things I remember too, not many but some.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> Mike, don't get mad at me but I think you should take an accounting course. You can't count a loss that you never had. You are assuming you would have them if you didn't shake the bees out. That is not a loss. That is a fantasy.


No Acebird, 

You need to take a class. The "loss" is the "opportunity cost". 

To someone with business sense.... It's an obvious loss.


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## WLC

Acebird has more jobs than he does hives.

But, we're all aware of the loss of productivity issues that can arise when making splits.


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## BeeCurious

WLC said:


> But, we're all aware of the loss of productivity issues that can arise when making splits.


The current discussion was about dumping queenless bees onto the ground.... 

WLC, 

Just curious, what's your job:hive ratio?


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## WLC

What's yours? Hmmm?

I've missed the flow when making queenless splits.

How about you?


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## Acebird

BeeCourious's expertise is in heckling. I am not sure what he really knows about beekeeping because all his advice to me has been wrong so far.

I should add a note to him. If you get caught taking losses on fantasies the IRS will set you straight about business sense.


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## Mike Gillmore

> Acebird;1024872]Mike, don't get mad at me but I think you should take an accounting course


Ace, I could never get mad at you. But I appreciate the concern. My accounting skills have served me well so far, barbaric as they are. 



> Acebird;1024872]You are assuming you would have them if you didn't shake the bees out.


Huh ??? :scratch:




> Acebird;1024872]That is not a loss. That is a fantasy.


There are a lot of fantasies floating around here lately.


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## Acebird

Mike Gillmore said:


> That's pretty easy.
> 
> 1 hive not producing honey - 40, 50, 100 lbs. Whatever is typical in your area.


It is typical that a split hive doesn't produce any excess honey so when you say it does it is a fantasy. I don't sell hives, nucs or bees so calling it a loss is a fantasy.


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## Mike Gillmore

Acebird said:


> It is typical that a split hive doesn't produce any excess honey so when you say it does it is a fantasy. I don't sell hives, nucs or bees so calling it a loss is a fantasy.


Ok, lets look at it this way. 

Example 1 - Part B of the split makes no surplus honey this year, but overwinters and gives you 80 lbs of honey next spring. 

Example 2 - Part B of the split goes queenless and is eventually shaken out on the ground. It does not exist next year.

Please read that over a few times and hopefully you will be able to see the loss I'm referring to. It's not fantasy but very real.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> It is typical that a split hive doesn't produce any excess honey so when you say it does it is a fantasy.


Since we seem to be using Michael Bush as a reference in this thread, note this snippet from Michael's *splits *page:


> *A cut down split.
> 
> **Concepts of a cut down:* The concepts of a cut down are that you free up bees to forage because they have no brood to care for, and you crowd the bees up into the supers to maximize them drawing comb and foraging.[HIGHLIGHT] This is especially useful for comb honey production and more so for cassette comb honey production, but will produce more honey [/HIGHLIGHT] regardless of the kind of honey you wish to produce.
> 
> _Read the rest here:
> _http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm


It may pay you to read a little more carefully! 


:gh:


... but that is probably just a _fantasy _...


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## LSHonda310

Ace, I have a few questions,
Do you split all three hives in the spring?
What do you do with your "extra" hives?
Why do you keep bees if you don't have time for them with all your jobs?


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## Acebird

Mike Gillmore said:


> Example 2 - Part B of the split goes queenless and is eventually shaken out on the ground. It does not exist next year.


Now you are assuming again. The bees could go to my other hives and produce as much honey or more than if they were just trying to exist. If they go back to other hives it would make that / those hives stronger and I could split them again and now I have the same number of hives I wanted in the first place. For a hobbyist there really isn't much of a loss by dumping bees on the ground from a queenless hive unless you wait.


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## Mike Gillmore

Sheesh. I give up.

Ace, by the time you figure out that the hive is queenless, those bees you will be shaking out will be old bees. They are not going to give other colonies that much of a boost.


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## Acebird

LSHonda310 said:


> Ace, I have a few questions,
> Do you split all three hives in the spring?
> What do you do with your "extra" hives?
> Why do you keep bees if you don't have time for them with all your jobs?


First question: No, I split to curb swarming or to get back to 3 hive count.
Second question: Give them away
Third question: People on beesource busted my cajones about being unemployed so I though I would give them something else to talk about and took on more work. The bees provide pollination services for the extensive gardens that we have. I don't charge the neighbors for their services. They really do make a difference to your gardens and fruit trees. Any fruit you buy is heavily poisoned. I don't like the taste of poison. How often do you go to the doctor and how many pills does he / she have you on? I enjoy my bees.


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## Acebird

Mike Gillmore said:


> They are not going to give other colonies that much of a boost.


You should give up because if they are old bees then you admit you are not losing anything they have already packed the queenless hive full of honey and I don't have to wait to next year. I didn't lose the honey now did I?


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## sqkcrk

Was it Roy Orbisone who sang "Wasted days and wasted nights."?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Freddie Fender wrote the song and had a popular version of "Wasted days and Wasted nights."




I wonder how much poisoned fruit _*he *_ate?

:gh:

Interesting tidbit from the link above:


> The song is also heard in the background of a scene from the *alien abduction* film Fire in the Sky, which was reportedly based on a true story. .


Are we witnessing the results????  :scratch::lpf:


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## sqkcrk

That's it Mr. Dependable.


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## Mike Gillmore

Acebird said:


> You should give up because if they are old bees then you admit you are not losing anything they have already packed the queenless hive full of honey and I don't have to wait to next year. I didn't lose the honey now did I?


I didn't see you explain to Dave Warren that he did not *really *experience a "loss" with his queenless colony. I wonder what he would think. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291268-Hive-died

You seem pretty confident in shaking bees out on the ground to solve problems. How many times have you done this with your bees?


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## Acebird

Mike Gillmore said:


> I didn't see you explain to Dave Warren that he did not *really *experience a "loss" with his queenless colony.


"lost a queen" implies there was one to begin with so he had a loss. It truly amaizes me that when someone gets a hive they are told to do everything under the sun to insure their success. And still lose the hive. Then on the other hand I do next to nothing and have success and that is no good too.:scratch:


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## KevinR

Acebird said:


> Then on the other hand I do next to nothing and have success and that is no good too.:scratch:


Keep drinking the Coolaid... Lets see "honest" responses... i believe somewhere up in the post... You killed and split your hives multiple times over the last 2-3 years.... Have you managed to keep the same hive/queen alive for the last 2-3 years? Is she marked so your 100% sure?


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## Mike Gillmore

Acebird said:


> Then on the other hand I do next to nothing and have success ...


What is your definition of "success"?


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## Acebird

You want my definition of success? I still have bees. And I realize that could come to an end just like it can for anyone that just has a few hives regardless of what they do. I am pretty sure that the marked queens that I had from the nucs that I bought are gone. I have no idea how old the queens that I have are. Nor do I care. Judging from discussions on beesource anything over 2 years would be on borrowed time. I probably will add that to my list that If I thought a hive had a 2 year old queen I would split that just encase something should go wrong with the natural supercedure.


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## WLC

Acebird:

If you lose however many hives, then you just buy more bees the same as anyone else.

It ain't over till you say it is.


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## KevinR

Acebird said:


> You want my definition of success? I still have bees.


How much honey did you make per hive? What is the average for the state/area?

Having/keeping bees isn't hard... Neither is splitting a hive every year and having the "new queen/hive live".

Keeping the "same" hive alive with the "same" queen is harder... Whether she "should" be replaced every 1-x years is open for debate... But claiming that you do "nothing" and are still successful... I question that.

Do you spend more than 1 hour per hive per year looking at your bees? Do you do anything other than putting a super on the hive and taking it off at the end of the year?


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## Mike Gillmore

There's nothing wrong with challenging "out of the box" ideas. I think we have all been in the grey area when it comes to personal attacks though. Hate to see an entertaining thread get locked out.


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## Barry

There have been way too many personal underhanded remarks happening on the forums of late. This thread has its share. Let's stop it.


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## WLC

There are way more struggling new beekeepers, who lack resources, than there are the other kind.

I think that Acebird's TF experiences in trying to keep 3 hives going, by making walkaway splits, is far more valuable to them than some of the other suggestions simply because most folks don't really have the ways and means to do things 'the right way'.

He's TF, and he's trying to keep his hives going with very little resources.

What are his odds of success by making queenless splits for his 3 hives?

I dunno. However, it's better than doing nothing.


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## KevinR

I really think you missed the point of most of my posts....... I started with 1 hive..... I had limited "resources" and did several walk away splits. As I stated multiple times, it works... It's not "ideal", but it *works*....

If you read through most of the posts on this thread, they were never 100% "anti" walk away split. 

They had one "single" resounding theme.... 

_*Look in your hives.... Know what's going in your splits..... Make your bees as successful as they can be...*​_
That's it.... No other magic.... Just give the bees the "*best*" chance to be successful...



WLC said:


> What are his odds of success by making queenless splits for his 3 hives?


If you do it correctly, it should be better than 80%...


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## Mike Gillmore

WLC said:


> There are way more struggling new beekeepers, who lack resources, than there are the other kind.


You are probably right about that, at least here on Beesource. I have a question though. How many in that group would you estimate to be content with zero gain on their hives or honey vs. those who are looking to have a honey crop or increase their hive count? If the majority is the latter, which plan do you think would work best for them?


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## WLC

Kevin:

Here's the interesting part.

Suppose all three of them make it, and he doesn't have the equipment to deal with swarming, or he doesn't have the supers (w/o foundation even) to harvest honey?

Not everyone can get ahead of the curve when it comes to equipment, etc. .

Of course, if one or two of them don't overwinter, then he just repeats the walkaway split process.


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## KevinR

WLC said:


> Kevin:
> 
> Here's the interesting part.
> 
> Suppose all three of them make it, and he doesn't have the equipment to deal with swarming, or he doesn't have the supers (w/o foundation even) to harvest honey?
> 
> Not everyone can get ahead of the curve when it comes to equipment, etc. .
> 
> Of course, if one or two of them don't overwinter, then he just repeats the walkaway split process.


Then he tosses an ad on craigslist and they disappear the same day..... I've got people bugging me for bees "months" in advance... Do you really think he's going to have any problem getting rid of a nuc/hive for free or low cost...

Bottom board = 15 bucks
1 medium super = 10 bucks
8 frames = 12 bucks
1 migratory top = 10 bucks

(This is assuming he doesn't make anything himself, if you do.. The prices go down by half or more.)

He brought up earlier that he's not in it for the money.... So, just sell it for enough to cover replacement parts... Do you really think he's going to have problems getting rid of a 8 frame nuc with a laying queen for 47 bucks?


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## Rader Sidetrack

> Suppose all three of them make it, and he doesn't have the equipment to deal with swarming ....

Ummm, you _sell _one of the splits .....use _part _of the money to acquire more equipment??? Seems simple to me.

Even if you don't want to expand, your equipment can be continuously updated, essentially for free - and you gain experience in the process. What's not to like?


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## WLC

Mike:

My own opinion of the problem with owning a few hives is that most new urban beekeepers are totally unprepared for unexpected 'boon times'.

They have a couple of hives, with a couple of mediums. That's it.


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## KevinR

WLC said:


> Mike:
> 
> My own opinion of the problem with owning a few hives is that most new urban beekeepers are totally unprepared for unexpected 'boon times'.
> 
> They have a couple of hives, with a couple of mediums. That's it.


I agree that most new beekeepers have limited equipment... It's a problem for experienced beekeepers... I'm short on equipment almost every year, which is why I'm about to send Mannlake some more money...

But really there's no reason not to have a couple nucs laying around. More so by year 2/3. You know what's going to happen and you know what to expect... or closer to it...

You make your inspected "walk away" splits.. waited 28 days and put an ad on craigslist. 

Or you just have the person bring you equipment... I did that last year. Guy gave me five 8 frame hives.. I took his new frames and put in drawn frames/bees and a queen cell. He came and got them a month later. He could have taken them the same day.. But he was nervous..


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## Acebird

Wow, looks like I missed a whole lot of cat fighting...



WLC said:


> Kevin:
> 
> Not everyone can get ahead of the curve when it comes to equipment, etc.


That is what I learned this year. I had enough equipment for three hives. I split because one of the hives would surely have swarmed. I gave the hive away because I had too many. Now I was down four medium boxes. So when the other hive ran out of room I didn't have any supers I could put on them and I surely didn't have time to extract.
Yes it was probably my fault because the person I gave the hive to had an empty hive but they were 10 frame deeps of styro and plastic frames. It would have been a pain in the neck to use them and I don't want plastic frames. He ordered me two wooden boxes and frames from Betterbee and felt compelled to assemble them himself. I did not want to insult him and say no give me the pieces and I will put them together. So by the time I got the two boxes it was too late. Well there went 5 boxes of honey. Sad, but not the end of the world. I gave a person so much joy having a hive after he was crushed by his bees dying in shipment AND BEING WITHOUT bees this year.

I have since ordered 5 more boxes and frames that I have to assemble so I should have enough equipment to maintain 3 hives and do splits next year. Now that I know what to expect I shouldn't have a problem giving established hives away for empty new equipment.


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## KevinR

Acebird said:


> I have since ordered 5 more boxes and frames that I have to assemble so I should have enough equipment to maintain 3 hives and do splits next year. Now that I know what to expect I shouldn't have a problem giving established hives away for empty new equipment.


IMO, you should have minimal of 5-6 boxes per hive... You can play the shell game of extracting and putting them back on, but you should consider the 4 bottom boxes the "brood" chamber and above that your honey supers.

For your 3 hives, you'd need 15-18 boxes, plus a couple for splits.

For my area, that should be 4 brood and 1-4+ for honey... Yours maybe more or less...

I've had some exceptional queens that would easily lay 6 boxes... (Roughly 3 deeps for brood) But she was a woman on a mission... 

Most of mine keep it around 3-4 eight frame mediums for brood.

You can do less, but your probably restricting your bees and potential honey crop... I've overwintered on 2 medium frames (4 half frames)... But I consider that the exception.


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## Mike Gillmore

WLC said:


> They have a couple of hives, with a couple of mediums. That's it.


I agree that your statement probably covers 90% of new beekeepers looking for advice here. First year is lack of equipment and swarming. Next year - "one of my hives died, what do I do?" 

They have limited resources and really can't afford to spend another $90 on a package. So they receive advice to split their remaining hive to replace the one that died. Do you think they would be more comfortable doing a blind split and hoping that the odds are with them, or would they feel more confident if they take the time to be certain that each hive has eggs when they do their split? 

I remember being there myself, and I think that a successful split is even more important to a new hobbyist than a larger operation. They don't want to take any chances and will do what needs to be done to improve their odds. Most are not looking for the "easy" way, but the "best" way.


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## Acebird

KevinR said:


> For your 3 hives, you'd need 15-18 boxes, plus a couple for splits.


I had 15, gave away 4 got 2 replaced and bought 5 = 18. If it is not enough I will make or buy more.


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## marshmasterpat

Ya'll this poor old horse has been so well beaten, it could be sold as ground meat very easily. And no one would find the bones or the hide cause they have been so well blended in from the beating. 

As a newbie, this has been interesting. Learned some from both sides of the debate. 

Now are ya'll going to try to turn this thing to tomato paste consistency before it gets locked.


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## WLC

I had absolutely no intention of having as much equipment as I do now.

Frankly, I think I need more.

Unless you have stuff on hand, when and where you need it, you're pretty much helpless.

And, of course, there's all the stuff you bought/made that you don't really need, but you have it just in case. 

I built 4 combination top/bottom boards so I can have two hives or more on a single bottom board. Just in case...

...I have to do a walkaway split in a hurry.


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## rwurster

Mike Gillmore said:


> ...I remember being there myself, and I think that a successful split is even more important to a new hobbyist than a larger operation....Most are not looking for the "easy" way, but the "best" way.


And a good successful first split lets a person know that even if they have one hive left in the spring they can still recover.


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## Kenww

Instead of splitting like crazy, what would be a reasonable amount of spitting? If I wanted to sell 100 nucs per year how many full hives would I be likely to need? I know it could very greatly. Just want a best guess or average year estimate. Assuming that I wanted to raise bees and just a little honey. I'm looking for some supplementAl income when I retire in 5-9 years.


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## WLC

Maybe this will give you an idea:

http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/OTS.pdf


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## Kenww

That's interesting. Amazing really. Have you tried it?


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## KevinR

I think it depends on if your raising queens, buying queens, or doing a let the bees raise there own. Also you need to decide how much your going to spend in feed. And how long you can make queens/splits..

But I would think you "should" be able to split a hive 4 times a year fairly easily... Then you need to figure out your winter losses etc... So in "theory" you could be able to get away with 25 hives making 4 splits per hive per year...

I'm sure you can get more or less aggressive... I fed one hive and it's splits all year two-three years back and ended up with 24 hives from one... But some of those didn't make it through the winter or got slimed out by SHB...

It really depends on you, your location, your bees, and your ability....

Also you need to decide if your going to try to make any honey with your to be split hives..


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