# Golf Course Hives



## Tumbleweed (Mar 17, 2021)

adrock said:


> First year keeper here. Long time golf course superintendent. I have spent years working for my environment. I have two nucs coming from Hudson valley bees in late April for home hives and have yet to lift my first frame of bees but can say already I am obsessed. My goal is to have an apiary on the golf course that I am in charge of. I want to show that we are stewards not enemies of the environment. I am a Audubon cooperative sanctuary and want to do all I can. I feel like the hive may be a “canary in the mine” for my necessary pesticide applications but am confident I do the right thing and they will thrive.
> Hello to all you experts. I will be asking for advice. I am on my own and can only learn so much from books and the few I feel I can trust on YouTube.


Veil off to you! What do you use to combat weeds? What type of firtilizer do you use?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Enter the term "golf course" in the search bar. There are over 400 posts for you to peruse regarding beekeeping and golf courses.


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## adrock (Mar 19, 2021)

I use an insecticide once sometimes twice a year on greens. Regrettably golfers do not enjoy clover so I need to treat that in the rough first thing in season long before any blooms. Fertilizer is exclusively Nature Safe. More or less chicken poop. Lots of foraging in my naturalized areas and surrounding woods. Once I prove that I can keep my home bees alive for a year it will be time to convince the hotel I am attached to that hives will not be an insurance problem.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

You use an insecticide to kill clover? Are you sure you're not using herbicides to kill specific plants other than insecticides which kill...insects?


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## adrock (Mar 19, 2021)

mtnmyke said:


> You use an insecticide to kill clover? Are you sure you're not using herbicides to kill specific plants other than insecticides which kill...insects?


As a twenty year licensed pesticide applicator I have finally learned difference between weeds and insects. I will try to be clearer in the future. Acclaim insecticide on greens for cutworms and ABW. Lontrel or a broadleaf “mix” herbicide in rough and fairways early spring for clover and the such. Besides that I of course need to apply fungicides on greens. I do what I can but it is unfortunately a balance between people’s wants and the earth’s


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## adrock (Mar 19, 2021)

adrock said:


> As a twenty year licensed pesticide applicator I have finally learned difference between weeds and insects. I will try to be clearer in the future. Acclaim insecticide on greens for cutworms and ABW. Lontrel or a broadleaf “mix” herbicide in rough and fairways early spring for clover and the such. Besides that I of course need to apply fungicides on greens. I do what I can but it is unfortunately a balance between people’s wants and the earth’s


Not Acclaim. That is also a herbicide. I meant Acelepryn. So many names!!


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

I figured 

It's a rough balance that probably weights more heavily toward the needs of the people than the creatures of the golf course. Golf courses are known to be environmental disasters so if you can keep bees there, that may show it can be done somewhat responsibly.

I live on a vineyard and was told the only thing they sprayed was fungicides. Apparently research show's those are just as bad for the bees as they need to ferment their bee bread.

They lost half their grapes last year to fungus so I'm scared for what they may start using in the future to preserve their worthless crop. (They do it for status, not for actually growing anything)


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## Tumbleweed (Mar 17, 2021)

I was looking for specific chemical names to be able to pass on to a greens keeper I’m aquainted with.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Thanks for bringing Acclaim to my attention. Sounds like the perfect product to get rid of some of the nuisance grasses, while protecting what I have left of the fescue in my yard.


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## adrock (Mar 19, 2021)

JWPalmer said:


> Thanks for bringing Acclaim to my attention. Sounds like the perfect product to get rid of some of the nuisance grasses, while protecting what I have left of the fescue in my yard.


Great product. I strongly encourage going light on application rates. I have killed a few tees trying to kill crabgrass. Earliest and lightest rates the “weed”allows.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

if I sprayed Acclaim on my lawn, I wouldn't have a lawn


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I'm with you Mike. Right now if I sprayed 2,4-D on my "yard", most of it would die. But I don't because I want the dandelions and clover, at least in the backyard where the bees are.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

adrock said:


> First year keeper here. Long time golf course superintendent. I have spent years working for my environment. I have two nucs coming from Hudson valley bees in late April for home hives and have yet to lift my first frame of bees but can say already I am obsessed. My goal is to have an apiary on the golf course that I am in charge of. I want to show that we are stewards not enemies of the environment. I am a Audubon cooperative sanctuary and want to do all I can. I feel like the hive may be a “canary in the mine” for my necessary pesticide applications but am confident I do the right thing and they will thrive.
> Hello to all you experts. I will be asking for advice. I am on my own and can only learn so much from books and the few I feel I can trust on YouTube.


s 
Well, the world has changed if it is indeed true that bees are allowed on a gold course. Always a liability concern for a cautious business IME. Nice to here that you are making the effort. I hope there is good bee pasture in the area.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

adrock said:


> want to show that we are stewards not enemies of the environment. I am a Audubon cooperative sanctuary and want to do all I can.


adrock:

Welcome to the forum- I for one applaud your efforts. While I think we can all appreciate the oftentimes dichotomous relationship between our needs/wants and that of the EHB (or the myriad native pollinators), the first step towards a more balanced relationship (at least in my humble perspective) is to think about what sort of impact the various decisions we might make will have on the environment- and are there less impactful means to the end?

Best of success with your project- I hope it is successful both from a practical and and an educational perspective.

Russ


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Welcome to the forum,
I have never kept near a golf course. the chems used scare me into not trying it. the state is a big place so why keep there. keep in mind the bees need water, often the runoff ends up in a pond some where,, all mixed into a toxic soup, hopefully this is not the place the bees drink from.
On Water if the course has a pool be aware the bees seem to like pools.

As well the management may not want you playin with bees when there is work to do.

I "Would "check the liability if someone gets stung and dies from the anaphylactic Shock. too me too many risks and not enough rewards. can you not find a place somewhere with out a green chem created island?

not tryin to rain on your parade just tryin to keep you out of a jam.

GG


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## adrock (Mar 19, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> Welcome to the forum,
> I have never kept near a golf course. the chems used scare me into not trying it. the state is a big place so why keep there. keep in mind the bees need water, often the runoff ends up in a pond some where,, all mixed into a toxic soup, hopefully this is not the place the bees drink from.
> On Water if the course has a pool be aware the bees seem to like pools.
> 
> ...


Sure some courses can certainly be that way but....... man!!!! PLEASE go find a golf course that cares or is associated with Audubon in any way. What you are describing is so old school. I also agree with you that there are so many places that bees can be kept. I however do not enjoy the company of others, probably why I am interested in bees. I have where I work, my home and maybe a few people that may be able to spare a square. Golf course can be some of the best nature habitats in many communities!!!
Truly not trying to be confrontational. Just want people not to think all course are like what they see on tv.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

adrock said:


> Sure some courses can certainly be that way but....... man!!!! PLEASE go find a golf course that cares or is associated with Audubon in any way. What you are describing is so old school. I also agree with you that there are so many places that bees can be kept. I however do not enjoy the company of others, probably why I am interested in bees. I have where I work, my home and maybe a few people that may be able to spare a square. Golf course can be some of the best nature habitats in many communities!!!
> Truly not trying to be confrontational. Just want people not to think all course are like what they see on tv.


adrock,
truly I was not trying to be confrontational either.
If it is a good clean place go for it. I have Never heard of the Audubon flavor of a golf course, I will believe what you say about them. I would think if a course is that way they would advertise it, again Never seen that moniker.

keep them way back behind the equipment shed. Out of sight out of mind. so the only issue left is the guys golfing that are allergic to bee stings, so go with a gentle race and keep an eye out for dearth's, as that is when they get a bit testy.

BTW the course in my community is not the best nature Habitat, we may need to disagree there.

you "should" like keeping it is a gas

good luck

GG


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

The word on the beekeeping street is that golf courses are notoriously negative for honey bees.

To OP - as steward of your course, eliminate the pesticides at once. 

Literally just do a bad job at applying them, if the danger is that your supervisors find out. 

After your supervisors leave, find a way to remove the pesticides from the inventory so they think you applied them correctly. Do not dump them down the drain.,


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

adrock said:


> My goal is to have an apiary on the golf course that I am in charge of. I want to show that we are stewards not enemies of the environment. I am a Audubon cooperative sanctuary and want to do all I can.


With those goles I would put in in native bees, if you build habitat they will come

Honey bees are livestock, the cows of the insect world. A non native invasive species that displaces native pollinators, spreads pathogens, enables the spread of noxious weeds and changes the distribution of native plants.
They are directly responsible for the extinction of the US's native parrot (Conuropsis carolinensis) threw nest site competition, it once ranged NY to FL to Colorado.
If they didn't make honey for human consumption, or weren't needed for aguculture there would likely be programs in place to try to remove them, much like they were iraticaded from channel islands national park to restore it to a native habitat.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

msl said:


> With those goles I would put in in native bees, if you build habitat they will come
> 
> Honey bees are livestock, the cows of the insect world. A non native invasive species that displaces native pollinators, spreads pathogens, enables the spread of noxious weeds and changes the distribution of native plants.
> They are directly responsible for the extinction of the US's native parrot (Conuropsis carolinensis) threw nest site competition, it once ranged NY to FL to Colorado.
> ...


"They are directly responsible for the extinction of the US's native parrot (Conuropsis carolinensis) threw nest site competition, it once ranged NY to FL to Colorado."

Please site references for this claim.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> The main causes of the species's extinction were persecution (for food, crop protection, aviculture and the millinery trade), and deforestation (especially of the bottomlands), probably compounded by its gregarious nature (Saikku 1991), and by competition with introduced bees (McKinley 1960).





http://datazone.birdlife.org/species/factsheet/carolina-parakeet-conuropsis-carolinensis/text



We see this repeated in the Puerto Rican Parrot that was brought back for the edge of extinction, one on the methods used was to keep honey bees form moving in to the nest sites


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## adrock (Mar 19, 2021)

Holy guilt trip. I’ve recovered now. Still gonna keep bees. 😀


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

msl said:


> http://datazone.birdlife.org/species/factsheet/carolina-parakeet-conuropsis-carolinensis/text
> 
> 
> 
> We see this repeated in the Puerto Rican Parrot that was brought back for the edge of extinction, one on the methods used was to keep honey bees form moving in to the nest sites


Perhaps a bias is blurring your understanding, for no where in the reference(s) you provide does it say or make the claim or even allude to the fact that- honey bees are directly responsible for the extinction of the Carolina Parakeet.

McKinley, D. 1960. The Carolina Parakeet in pioneer Missouri. Wilson Bulletin 72: 274-287 
McKinley says ““Their nesting places were in the hollows of old trees on the island referred to” (about 10 miles above Brownsville) (F urnas, 1902). This report is probably the nearest approach to a genuine nesting record for the Carolina Parakeet in the Missouri region. “

Re the cutting of “bee trees” for wax and honey –McKinley says “What effect, if any, that had on the parakeet is unknown.” 

Saikku, M. 1991. The extinction of the Carolina Parakeet. 
Hunting, deforestation, nature of the bird are the main causes.

The Puerto Rican Parrot has nothing to do with your claim about the Carolina Parakeet and it's demise.

What gives here?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

adrock said:


> Holy guilt trip. I’ve recovered now. Still gonna keep bees. 😀


Good for you, just take care of the friggin things and don't be the cause of spreading pathogens to other colonies in the area.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> no where in the reference(s) you provide does it say or make the claim or even allude to the fact that- honey bees are directly responsible for the extinction of the Carolina Parakeet.


well they said


> by competition with introduced bees


now maybe "directly" was a bit of hyperbole on my part
if you want to debate the source I used is miss sighting McKinley 1960 and your source is not I am ears...

there are several that also site McKinley, D. 1980. The balance of decimating factors and recruitment in extinction of the Carolina Parakeet. Part 1. Indiana Audubon Quarterly 58: 8-18
and
McKinley, Daniel. “Historial Review of the Carolina Parakeet in the Carolinas.” _Brimleyana _1 (March 1979): 81–98.

as listing bees as a cause, but most get stuck behind a pay wall

right or wrong, there is plenty out there that says bees 


> The species succumbed to various perils. One biologist has argued that the hollow trees the birds used for nests and winter roosts were invaded by European honeybees that pioneers brought with them, and that moved ahead of actual settlement.











The Carolina Parakeet Reminds Us to Do Better


One hundred years after its extinction, the Carolina parakeet is more than an extinct species. It's a reminder that we have one last chance.




psmag.com







> It has also been hypothesized that the introduced honeybee helped contribute to its extinction by taking many of the bird's nesting sites.











The last Carolina Parakeet


The Carolina Parakeet was the only parrot species native to the Eastern U.S.




johnjames.audubon.org






> Some thought it was habitat loss. Some thought it was hunting and trapping. Some thought disease. A few even thought it was competition with non-native honey bees for tree cavities, where the parakeets would roost and nest.











What the tragic story of the extinct Carolina parakeet can tell us about parrot conservation


The last Carolina parakeet died in a zoo a century ago. A scientist tries to unravel some of this bird's lasting mysteries.




scroll.in






> Several theories exist regarding what caused the extinction of the species, including hunting, loss of mature swamp forests, competition with imported honeybees for nest holes, reduced food supply, and disease.











Carolina Parakeet - South Carolina Encyclopedia


Now extinct, the Carolina parakeet (Conuropsis carolinensis) was a dove-sized (about thirty-five centimeters long) bird with a bright green body, yellow head, and orange face. Mark Catesby, an English naturalist living in Charleston, painted the parakeet in 1731, thus providing the first...



www.scencyclopedia.org






> Putting yet more pressure onto this species’s diminishing populations, European settlers imported their domesticated honeybees -- yet another invasive alien species -- which then competed with Carolina parakeets for their own nest hollows.











What Happened To America's Only Endemic Parrot?


One hundred years ago today, the last breath was drawn by the last living representative of an entire race of beings, a loss that was barely noticed by those very people who made it all happen




www.forbes.com





the point stands, despite the greenwashing being done with them, bees are not "good" for the US natural environment any more then any other livestock.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

msl said:


> well they said
> 
> now maybe "directly" was a bit of hyperbole on my part, but if you want to argue the source I used is miss sighting McKinley 1960 and your source is not I am ears...
> 
> ...


There is no argument. Your statement mischaracterizes the literature.
Why would you do that?

From you last reference:
"The conclusion that wild populations persisted into the middle of the 20th century provides a distressing subtext to the remainder of the book, which synthesizes available data on the biology of the Carolina Parakeet and discusses probable causes for its extinction. Here, Snyder is forced to sift through historical accounts, many of which were previously compiled by Daniel McKinley in a series of state-by-state records of the species (e.g. McKinley 1985). This section represents no mean scholarly feat by Snyder, for despite the abundance of this species before its decline, historical accounts from such well-known naturalists as Audubon, Wilson, Nuttall, and Brewster are striking in their patchwork nature and conflicting content. Snyder does his best to fill in the resulting gaps with extrapolations from the biology of other parrot species, based on personal knowledge gleaned from extensive fieldwork. Despite this effort, chapters on habitat preferences, feeding habits, and breeding biology raise as many questions as they answer regarding the degree to which the Carolina Parakeet relied on virgin primary forest, the relative importance of different food items, whether this species was toxic to its predators, the social structure of flocks, the timing of the breeding season, and whether it nested exclusively in cavities or also constructed twig nests."

and

"The book concludes with chapters weighing the probable causes of extinction of the Carolina Parakeet. Here, unfortunately, Snyder is particularly hampered by the scarcity of ecological data and is consequently forced into extensive speculation. The usual suspects are all discussed, including shooting (as crop pests and for scientific collecting), capture for the pet trade, changes in food supply, competition for nest cavities from introduced European honey-bees, and mortality from predators or parasites. Snyder concludes, as did McKinley before him (McKinley 1980), that many of these factors may have played a role in the parakeet’s decline, but none are obvious culprits behind the species’ final disappearance."

and

"Perhaps for lack of a better explanation, Snyder turns to disease, suggesting that it played a major role in the decline of the Carolina Parakeet."


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> From you last reference:


Goggle says you are quoting this book review ?








The Carolina Parakeet: Glimpses of a Vanished Species.


Ornithology advances the fundamental scientific knowledge of birds and of broad biological concepts through studies of bird species.




bioone.org





I am missing were I used it,(maybe I did, but that's not my style, odd) 
but even it says


> The usual suspects are all discussed, including shooting (as crop pests and for scientific collecting), capture for the pet trade, changes in food supply, competition for nest cavities from introduced European honey-bees, and mortality from predators or parasites. Snyder concludes, as did McKinley before him (McKinley 1980), that many of these factors may have played a role in the parakeet’s decline, but none are obvious culprits behind the species’ final disappearance.


Any way, neither of us seem to have access to the sited original writings to see if they hold water or not , and like the book review its becoming a long game of telephone, its now the reviewing writer telling us the author said that another writer said X ..that will get us no were as we are too far form the source

ie another review of the book states


> .While some of this information doubtlessly is factual, other remembrances seem to me to be far-fetched, such as the claim that some parakeets roosted in barns and houses, hanging from the rafters by their bills rather REVIEW 119 than using their legs to perch. Elsewhere in the book, Snyder accepts as factual several historical statements that have been discounted by other ornithologists (e.g., Bailey 1925, Howell 1932, McKinley 1985). Among the questionable statements that Snyder accepts are that Carolina Parakeets built open twig nests in addition to nesting in cavities, and that parakeets—including those in Florida—fell into a state of torpor when roosting. Regarding the cup nests, Snyder refuses to discount the few second- or third-hand historical reports even though no ornithologist ever witnessed such behavior, and even though no other psittacid in the world is known to nest in both cavities and open nests. Snyder suggests that exotic diseases, perhaps transmitted by chickens, contributed to the extinction of Carolina Parakeets, although he admits that no historical or recent observations exist of any other psittacid in the New World being similarly affected by diseases transmitted by domestic fowl





> In summary, The Carolina Parakeet: Glimpses of a Vanished Bird makes entertaining reading for those interested in the early ornithology of Florida. The book is less successful as a treatise on the natural history of the Carolina Parakeet, owing to its reliance on unproven and otherwise unvetted hearsay data





https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/FFN_34-4_p118.pdf



I can't debate based on book reviews, so good night...
BYW thanks for pushing me to dig in the ornigain source materiel


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

msl said:


> Goggle says you are quoting this book review ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are correct in pointing out my error in saying "from you last reference" as it was meant to say About your last reference. 

It was quoted to show the low relevance of the reference to substantiate the original claim.

I agree the back and forth is a fool's errand. 
When some legitimate evidence is located to support the claim made please tell it out from the mountain tops.


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