# Are SBB essential to treatment free beekeeping?



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Last year my SBB hives had more losses, this year the SBB hives have fewer losses. I have a side by side LC vs SC setup, the SC hive with the SBB died out in mid summer, the LC hive on a solid BB lives on thru winter. In the five or more years I have had SBB on some of my hives, I have not seen a decided advantage.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

What are LC and SC?

Good, i am not a total nut job!

mike


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

It is debatable for sure.
If you use powder sugar dusting or dribble method oxalic or that type of treatment then yes, the sbb's are needed. If you are using vapor type treatments such as oxalic or formic vapor then they work agains you. 

I've seen bees block off the entire sbb's by clustering on it in the cool spring when there is brood in the bottom box. In that case, that open ventilation may not be so good huh? Is it good to have in summer for ventilation? I say that is also debatable as the bees can't micro manage the hive environment as well with all that open bottom. Do bees prefer an open bottom in the wild? I'd have to say no, as they always seem to look for enclosed cavities. I think they like to micromanage their hive environment better than what an open bottom environment provides. So do sbb's help in dropping debri exiting the hive? I'd have to say yes to that one. Especially the smaller debri, which there is alot of from a hive at least at times.

I use all sbb's and have for the last ten years or so. Just last year and this I am using some solid bottoms again. I can't say that they are a needed item if you are not doing the powder sugar dusting or dribble method treatments. I started using them because it sounded like it might be a good idea, and I was doing powder sugar dusting back then. I now question my using them, mostly because it causes hardship on the bees for managing their hive environment, at least at times, and I'm not doing powder sugar or dribble treatments so am thinking of going back to solid bottoms for all.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Right now I do nothing to the hives. No dusting etc. Do they really help with natural mite drop? 

mike


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

If you have VSH in the bees and if they are cleaning mites off each other, I'd think they'd bite or kill the mites and drop them and then house cleaning bees would carry it out of the hive. If you have sbb's then they'd not have to carry it out but carry it down and drop it. I don't see much difference myself. 

If they didn't actually kill the mite, and then also if they didn't carry it out of the hive live, then maybe it would drop out the sbb, but I would think it would have to have been dislodged from near the bottom bar area of combs. Otherwise it's just going to re-attach to the next bee it hits on it's way down.

These are just my thoughts. I know of no testing having been done but I don't get around much to know. I think it's up to each of us to test ourselves and make our own conclusions.


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

I would lean more to their importance as a way for moisture to be eliminated, If I where in the south in humid climates I would think them to be more beneficial if in the cool north not so much, my 2 cents


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I went to all SBB (50 of them) for a while and then when I expanded again, I went to solid bottom boards so I could avoid buying feeders.

http://bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm#BottomBoardFeeder

So now I'm at 50 SBB and 150 solid. I see no difference as far as Varroa, but then I have no Varroa issues anyway, so it's hard to say if I did.

The SBB are nice on a hot summer day when you can pull the tray, prop up the lid and get the bearding bees to move back inside.

The SBB are nice IF you are treating with anything as the weakened (or dislodged) Varroa can't crawl back up.

The SBB are nice for monitoring mite levels.

Since I don't treat and I quite monitoring levels, I find having a basically free feeder is worth more to me.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

I am continuing my treatment free program. I am looking at what i am doing. I think I will need to do do sbb under my drone hives so that i can do powder dusting. I am thinking about this because Larry Connor said in front of a large group of people "Mike is wrong on SBB don't listen to him". I keep mostly vsh crosses and purvis. Then ferals and mutts. 

mike


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

My SBB's are #6 mesh over oil pans that are enclosed within their own box. During winter I tape the back of the box where the pan slides out to shut off this source of draft.

Because of the larger mesh size, thru-out the rest of the year I find mites, SHBs, ants and a lot of other weird things floating in the oil (no bees). Whether they were DOA or drowned... I just feel that these are creatures that would otherwise, for the most part, just pick themselves up off a solid bottom board and make their way back up into the hive.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I certainly do not think that SBBs are essential to a treatment free program, especially when attempting to breed bees that can better cope with pest and diseases on there own. I've never seen bees naturally build colonies above pools of oil... In any natural situation the pests could crawl back up and the bees would have to stay on top of controlling them... thus I must warn of the concern of future troubles that long term sbb use in breeding selection colonies could cause... While we are all trying to breed stronger, better bees, SBBs just seem to give the bees an unnatural advantage that would lower the need to protect and clean the hives.

Not saying they are bad for most people, because they arent... I just look at them as a possible "crutch" that I wouldnt allow my bees to use while I am promoting their natural hygienic behavior.


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

Evolution is a wonderful thing. And that is why the majority of us hobbiest keep cheering you breeders on who have the resources and vested interests -so you can provide us with the resistant stock that eliminates all of the IPM tools we now have to use to keep our little tiny 'operations' alive.

Sampling a loss of 50% when your talking 2 hives is what I call luck. Out of 100 hives is something to take notice of. A lot of us don't have the tools (time primarily, or funds) to do anything but react to the immediate situation - when we start over, it is from scratch, with nucs and packages from breeders. We're not out capturing feral swarms, splitting VHS hives or grafting queen cells.

I totally support the approach of nature defending itself, but I just have to use the tools at hand to try and make it from one winter thru the next.


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## PDG honey (Jul 31, 2010)

Sbb I've used in the past for a study. To note I've never had a problem with mites. Sbb did show the rise in shb count in my hives. While I did see less bees ventalating the hive at the same time. If sbb does reduce mites it does increase shb in the hive. I sugest better bees than sbb.


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

Since there is no certification that I know of regarding what might be 'better bees', do you have a criteria by which others might use in the selection of their starters or replacements?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

SunKists fair well against SHB compared to other strains... no bee on the market is "beetle proof", but Tigers have not yet fallen to SHB.


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## Whitetail (Feb 3, 2011)

If you're not breeding resistant hives and are after honey production you might as well use them. They are proven to reduce mite load. Bees with less mites on them will not be as stressed. With lowered stress, they should be healthier. Healthy bees make more honey.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I started using sbb a few years ago. I’ve since returned to solids. In my neighborhood shb are a problem. Sbb allow them to evade defending bees and allow their larvae to escape the hive easily to pupate in the soil below. 
On the other hand…I was considering getting Certified Naturally Grown recently and was reading their bee requirements. If you plan on this certification you must either be all sbb or moving toward it. They have some reasonable requirements but also a few that I think are not.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Dan, correct me if I am wrong. Would SBB not give the SHB one more place to hide???? With the solids in my yard, I have eliminated all the hiding spots for SHB. I use no inner covers, I have hardly any plastic frames, and there is nowhere to hide in the bottom

mike


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Forgot to add, today is the defining moment if what I am doing is working, me and FarmerFraizer are mite testing all the hives. Got to make sure all looks good for inspection in a few weeks. 

mike


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## Whitetail (Feb 3, 2011)

beemandan said:


> I started using sbb a few years ago. I’ve since returned to solids. In my neighborhood shb are a problem. Sbb allow them to evade defending bees and allow their larvae to escape the hive easily to pupate in the soil below.
> 
> Makes sense. We have shb in Southeast MO. I always notice adult beetles in my hives, but never see larvae, or the slime I've heard a lot of people mention. I just try to keep the colonies strong enough to protect themselves. If the queen starts failing she's replaced. Unless she has some specific traits I want to preserve.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> Would SBB not give the SHB one more place to hide????


Yes....that's my thinking.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

When i was at the Baton Rouge bee lab this fall one of the scientists commented that SBB were in his eyes more valuable for ventilation then mite control. 
mike


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## Whitetail (Feb 3, 2011)

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> When i was at the Baton Rouge bee lab this fall one of the scientists commented that SBB were in his eyes more valuable for ventilation then mite control.
> mike


I'd have. agree with the bee lab on that one. I stuck a bit of newspaper on my top bars to pour some granular sugar on. (not the best method I'm sure, but that's not my point). The hives with solid bottoms had excessive amounts of condensation, to the point the paper was wet. The sbb's on the other hand the paper was dry. If the theory holds true that condensation dripping kills bees , not the temperatures, this should increase survivability. I'm pleased with them. To each their own.


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## summer1052 (Oct 21, 2007)

This sort of question is difficult. The more time that goes by, and the more I read here on Beesource has me convinced that more individual approaches, vs. generalized ones are needed. In other words, if it works for you, great! If it's working for all of them, and NOT you, find something else!

First, a caveat. Mites are not much of a problem for me. Heat, humidity, Fire ants, SHB and wax moths ARE. 

I found that a SBB just gave the bad buggers more entry. Even really strong hives can be overwhelmed if the enemy are too many. In addition, several hives tried to propolize them closed. Now I use plain wooden BB and the girls keep them spotless. 

I use AJ's Beetle Eater traps for SHB, and they work well for me. I have one hive (a cutout from a nearby county) that ignores the trap, and makes a propolis jail on the hive floor for the SHB. It works for them, and I leave it alone.

I DO add ventilation in the warmer months (March 1-November 1), on the tops of my hives (warm air rises, right?) in the form of ventilators DH makes. Think of a super cut in half the long way so it is only about 2" tall. He drills 1.75" holes in the sides that are covered with window screen. Hive cover on top of that.

I do not, and never have, used any chemicals IN the hive. I do have Fire ant poison granules in pie tins under the feet of my hive stands. Oil, water, and other methods did not deter them, only the granules (Amdro) did. They are too big for the bees to bother, and are not an issue otherwise. 

But, as I said, that is MY solution for MY challenges. Find what works for YOU and good luck!

Summer


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

I have the opposite, no beetles and a very slight mite problem.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

After several years of playing with them I've found no difference mite wise. We don't have beetles here.

Now I'm making solids just because they're easier.


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