# Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Where did u hear that?


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Where did u hear that?


A cordovan queen breeder. :lookout:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Just bees coming from Florida!

Come on, there's no way this could be enforced even if it wasn't rumor.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> There is a rumor going around that California will require beekeepers coming in to have Cordovan bees. Is there any truth or just a scare?


And whats the purpose of this? Make the price of pollination go through the roof even more. Although they come from the "kind and gentle society" the are about as prone to breeding mites as...........


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Not much about this this rumor even makes sense. There are inspectors at the bug station that can't even ID a fire ant and they would be asked to determine subtle differences in strains of bees within a particular race like Italians? "Turn your rig around buddy, I just found me a 3 banded Italian". Riiiight.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Will the border checkers be doing dna testing?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

That would be the only way they would know what strain your bees are.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Who would it benefit?


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>Who would it benefit?<<

The big syrup suppliers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Huh?


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Cordovans. The bees that turn every bit of honey into brood. Require a LOT of food. A good bee when getting paid by the frame of bees in almonds.

I have some in almost every yard. They are always the ones that run into trouble first in a dearth.

Of course this rumor is bs , but kills a little time talking about it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I wondered about that when corn syrup was mentioned. Maybe the Almond Federation is recommending cordovans for the reason loggermike suggested. Recommended, not required. Wouldn't that make some sense? Maybe almond growers will pay more for cordovan queened colonies or less for those who aren't. Who knowz?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> rumor going around that California will require beekeepers coming in to have Cordovan bees. Is there any truth ?


AM, you misread the statement from the entry border station, they only require nutra Bee fed hives into the state.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

:no::banana::lpf:


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Birdman said:


> A cordovan queen breeder. :lookout:


That was my first thought. Who's goign to be checking passports?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

INS, they just doubled their work force.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>they come from the "kind and gentle society"<<
Yes they are a kind and gentle bee. Pretty, too. But if I tried to run all cordovans, I'd have to have the Mann Lake tanker truck on speed dial


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## NW_Mark (Jan 23, 2012)

California blondes. Get out the mini surfboards amd the vollyball nets


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

The thought is that if the bees are light colored there is no Africanized intergression. Color change in Cordovan has been used by queen rearers and at the Beltsville Bee Lab, http://www.ars.usda.gov/main/site_main.htm?modecode=64-13-30-00 since the 1990s. 
If the bees are light they will be allowed to pass if they are dark they will be turned away as they do not want AHB any more than ants and other pests that are already there.
Cordovan stock can be as simple as a certificate from the state of origin. Florida certifiies queens already. There are two test before DNA - FABIS and USDA-ID that are fairly quick and accurate.
Many beekeepers are running Cordovan Aurea already for the rapid buildup and especially in South Florida to know when the queen was replaced by the bees.
Bees coming from states with Africanization are the most obvious candidates, but rules apply to all. We cannot have profling.
The oft used picture is of two Cordovan bees, one Italian and the darker Cordovan with the dominant African gene.






The picture is actually from the early AHB research at the ARS Honey Bee Breeding, Genetics and Physiology Research Unit by José D. Villa.
We just had another northern state require testing for bees coming from Florida so it might be countrywide.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

...yet California already has a confirmed AHB presence....and RIFA for that matter.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> FABIS and USDA-ID that are fairly quick and accurate.


FABIS accurate? Since when? Guzman-Novoa is one of the biggest critics of using morphometric measurements. DuPraw (1965) according to Ruttner (1975), was unable to delimit scutellata from capensis by wing venation (Hive and Honey Bee 1992 pg. 36).

"When FABIS was being written, it carried a disclaimer that if the bees in other areas were different then the bees in the FABIS survey or another area, then different standards were to be developed and used." - Dee Lusby.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> We just had another northern state require testing for bees coming from Florida so it might be countrywide.


We did? Which one was that? ME?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

FABIS does not measure wing venation. USDA-ID does cubital index of the wing venation but does not give it much weight. The first visible sternite carries much more weight. For an experienced tech there is enough data to determine managed from feral colonies, and possibly sub-species, though that is not the purpose of USDA-ID. Bee morphometrics has come a long way since 1965, 1975, or 1992. There are hundreds of thousands of DNA validated samples in the database now. Capensis from Scutellata is a far more challenging analysis and fortunately not pertinent in America yet. We are curently working on research to just that end. DR. Jamie Ellis, who completed his doctorate on Scutella in South Africa many years ago, returned there a couple of months ago with my co-worker for updated morphometric research. The University of Florida has the rapid DNA analysis to validate morphometrics.
I am not at liberty to share the name of the state near you that is requiring sub-species certification now. It is creating a lot of work for our tech, Kelly.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

why are you not at liberty to say which state if it is a law?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

He works for the State of FL and he isn't supposed to.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

AmericanBK - Just a dumb question, but wouldn't morphometrics have some issues with all the cross breeding going on. Russians, AHB, Cordovans, Italians, germans, beeweaver, and Romulans, all mixing with feral bees at any time. Heck, you could have a cordovan hive and a queen cell with AHB gene in it that is mean has heck. It gets passed through check stations and bingo the evil one emerges. 

I hope they have some significant structural measurements to go on... but maybe a color shift is enough to go on, but darn, that sure blows any scientific rigor out the door IMHO But I is the village idiot. But I honestly thought that only the Xercus group was the only folks in the zoological world that were still using color patterns for identification. 

Going back under my rock, but I remember the c. rufus fight well, know folks with scars from the earliest DNA fight. Even with genetics they were dealing with muddy water. I pity the folks in this fight. Sounds like someone that is a breeder knows someone that needed election funds.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

"But I read it on the internet so it must be true"


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Hybridization does not hinder identification with USDA-ID. It does present a challenge during FABIS with some smaller bees like Egyptian and possibly German. Then we follow-up with USDA-ID and DNA if USDA-ID is inconclusive. The database in USDA-ID compared nearly 100,000 USDA-ID identifications with DNA results. It is very accurate and can even identify feral bees from managed for an experienced tech.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> Hybridization does not hinder identification with USDA-ID. It does present a challenge during FABIS with some smaller bees like Egyptian and possibly German. Then we follow-up with USDA-ID and DNA if USDA-ID is inconclusive. The database in USDA-ID compared nearly 100,000 USDA-ID identifications with DNA results. It is very accurate and can even identify feral bees from managed for an experienced tech.


Can you elaborate on the identifying characteristics that would be different between feral and managed bees?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

The measurements are slightly different and cluster in a different quadrant when graphed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Morphometric measurements? (as if I really know what that means)

Cluster in a different quadrant when graphed? Please elaborate?

Does "cluster" used here refer to the common understanding of most beekeepers or the cluster of morphometric data? Or what?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is a link to a Dave Cushman page on morphometric measurements:
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/morphometry.html


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Rader.


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