# Top Bar Hive with Vertical Side Walls



## Shai

Does anyone have a top bar hive with vertical side walls (instead of the slanted sides, a la Kenyan TBHs)? I know Michael Bush's site references the tasmanian hives which are Lang frame compatible, but there's not much detail. Then there's the European long hives but the ones I've been able to find online mostly house frames as well, not top bars. 

Basically just looking on information on how they compare use-wise to the slanted sides, provided you don't make the hive so deep that the comb size becomes unmanageable and very easily broken? 

Thank you for any experiences shared!


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## Blazerdog

If you are OK with putting frames in the hive you might check out www.horizontalhive.com . He has plans for a straight sided hive. I have not used it but it looks interesting.


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## RobWok

Pretty much vertical sides means you'll have to make full size frames, and for that you may as well use some commercial frames. The true advantage of a top bar hive is being able to make your own frames, as dadant frames are hard. you can make frames with dowels as the sides and simplify construction though.


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## aunt betty

There are some people in Indiana who claim to have invented this stye of hive. They sell them online...look on Craigslist in some Indiana towns like Covington, Indiana or Danville, Illinois. They have ads all over the place. (except here)

I'll warn you that using Langstroth style frames in a top bar hive will create problems of their own because the tops of the bars are open to bee traffiic. I know because I've done it. Not that great an idea.


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## Shai

To be clear, my question is whether anyone has used just top bars rather than full frames in a TBH that doesn't have slanted side walls. I would rather use the top bars I already have.

Of course if that is not possible for some reason, I've love to know, and to know why!


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## GaryG74

The horizontal hive used by Leo Sharashkin (www.horizontalhive.com) can use either regular deep frames or 19" top bars like a regular top bar hive. Check out his recent article in the November issue of "Bee Culture" magazine titled "Horizontal Advantage". His dimensions use regular Langstroth deep frames instead of the Dadant frames, if you choose frames.


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## Andrey Limonchenko

The bees won't complain or grumble about not having standard frames. You might.  Having said that you can check into Warre style hives, they are "top bar" only style. But I have a friend who had two and now converting to langstroth. It's a matter of personal preference to the beekeeper on the style of management. There is nothing stopping you from using a standard langstroth hive with just top bars like these that have a comb guide of some sort. I personally like the frame idea primarily for ease of manipulation.


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## Shai

Thank you both. The plans page on that horizontal hive page is handy. 

Honestly I'm trying to avoid any sort of stacked boxes simply because I'm not getting any younger and my on-property hive location is in a place that can be difficult to reach with any sort of vehicle (basically a clearing in the wood near my house). Even getting a wheelbarrow back there can be tricky in a wet year. 

But I already have a big stack of top bars and with being right here on property it's not a hardship to go and move bars around frequently if needed. Gives me an excuse to poke around a bit. So I'd like to keep using them if it's reasonable, rather than starting over with frames.

I was just wondering about the straight sides for ease of building without leaving little SHB crevasses along edges.


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## AAIndigo

You can use standard frames you just need to make sure there is no space above. Look at this plan from the above link. Se how the cover/lid has a sheet of ply wood so they can venture above. Muck like Michael Bush's were he just uses a piece of plywood as a top http://www.horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/screened-bottom-plans.shtml


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## richr58

I starte out with Warre hives and yes they are top bar but not like a top bar you are asking about. They are fixed comb like a skep. I have not used a vertical side top bar but I have used the slanted. I like it way more then Warre and will move all my Warre into top bar next year


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## richr58

What I have read about TTBH vs KTBH that the bees tend to connect the comb to the sides more in the TTBH


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## aunt betty

Have put bars into langs that started in a top bar so that's pretty much the same thing. The bees converted slant-wall bars into straight. Had to make a split and all I had left was a deep so I put the bars I wanted into it. Never had any problems so I'd say go for it. Use what you got.


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## jadebees

I keep a lot of Warre hives, and make my swarm lures to be "long warre hives". About 12 to 14 topbars. The topbars are placed just like any Warre hive. I add a 3/8 spacer , under the roof, just like a Lang inner cover. The bees settle in readily, and the topbars are easily moved out to a hive by simply releasing the sides with a simple burr comb tool. This has worked so well, and is exactly like working ordinary Warre hives. I'm making some 3 or 3 1/2 boxes size for next spring. 24 to 30 frames is good for this area. I have used the standard Lang frames in a long box, and it works well also. But always space the roof, or propolis attacks! The worst hives I ever had were straight sided boxes, topbar hives, made at Lang frame size. That's a standard TTBH. Frames work, but topbars in there make a Mess.


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## Shai

Thanks everyone for your feedback!


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## Cabin

Shai said:


> Does anyone have a top bar hive with vertical side walls (instead of the slanted sides, a la Kenyan TBHs)? I know Michael Bush's site references the tasmanian hives which are Lang frame compatible, but there's not much detail. Then there's the European long hives but the ones I've been able to find online mostly house frames as well, not top bars.
> 
> Basically just looking on information on how they compare use-wise to the slanted sides, provided you don't make the hive so deep that the comb size becomes unmanageable and very easily broken?
> 
> Thank you for any experiences shared!


https://sites.google.com/site/topbarbeehives/beekeeping/tanzanian-top-bar-hive


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## MartinW

- Does anyone have a top bar hive with vertical side walls (instead of the slanted sides, a la Kenyan TBHs)? ...just looking on information on how they compare...

Here is a video produced by Peace Corp Ghana comparing the construction of a KTBH to what they call a Saltpond TBH (vertical side walls) which apartently produces more honey per hive. 

I love this video because it demonstrates just how simply, inexpensively one can keep bees. I have several TBHs I built using Wyatt Mangum's design modified with the entrance demonstrated in this video.

Good luck.


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## Mycroft Jones

All my top bar hives have vertical side walls. I started with the Jackson Horizontal Hive, and kept modifying that design.


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## gww

I don't have bees yet but have high hopes.

Cheers
gww


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## Mycroft Jones

110 litre horizontal hive. In future I will start them off in a 40 litre cavity, and only expand once they fill it.

I sized it so I could use Langstroth deep frames in it.

In my cold wet climate, I find that horizontal hives have a problem with excess moisture. A contributor to this forum advised on constructing the insulated top, which has enough room to do mountain camp style sugar/pollen feeding with 2 1 inch holes for ventilation. I put some sphagnum moss in those holes. It doesn't seem to have absorbed any moisture yet.


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys

Here are some top bar hive plans you might find interesting.


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## DaisyNJ

My understanding is that, without frames to constrain them, bees tend to build comb as half elliptical shape, hanging down. Slanted sides fit that form more naturally than vertical. And hope is, with proper angle matching that of natural comb, there is less room for bees to attach the comb to sides. 

I also wonder if slanted side provide better manageable space for cold climates.


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## BWrangler

Hi DaisyNJ

>... half elliptical shape...

Yes, when the combs are small and new. But after that, they curve the comb. And when it gets heavy and needs more support, they will attach it to the sidewalls regardless of sidewall slope.

At least that's been my experience. I've experimented with various slopes, starting with one that approximated a catenary curve and finishing with vertical sides. At the end of the season, there was no difference. These are the hives used in the test:

You can read more about it here.


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## DaisyNJ

BWrangler said:


> Hi DaisyNJ
> 
> >... half elliptical shape...
> 
> Yes, when the combs are small and new. But after that, they curve the comb. And when it gets heavy and needs more support, they will attach it to the sidewalls regardless of sidewall slope.
> 
> At least that's been my experience. I've experimented with various slopes, starting with one that approximated a catenary curve and finishing with vertical sides. At the end of the season, there was no difference. These are the hives used in the test:
> 
> You can read more about it here.


I love your website with all the details, experimentation etc. Thanks for sharing. Given all your tests, which design would you suggest for colder climates ?


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## Harley Craig

aunt betty said:


> I'll warn you that using Langstroth style frames in a top bar hive will create problems of their own because the tops of the bars are open to bee traffiic. I know because I've done it. Not that great an idea.



noting a cut to fit feed sack wont fix


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## swbrock

I use top bar hives with vertical walls that I built to deep Lang dimensions for several reasons:
-Hives can be built to a shorter length with the same volume
-Simpler and cheaper to make with fewer materials
-Can fit Lang frames from nucs or from other beeks if needed, also can give comb to Lang hives with a bit of creativity 
-Easier to stack and super if you want 

This is my first year keeping bees, but so far these hives have worked incredibly well. I have't had any problems with the girls attaching comb to the walls. In the tiny space I have in my backyard apiary, the more compact hive footprint let's me fit 2 hives end-to-end and still comply with our city code.

I started with a slanted sided TBH and had a helluva time cutting comb out from a Lang nuc fitting and attaching to the top bars. I was lucky enough to find a wild hive in our neighbor's yard, and was able to use the empty deep frames from the nuc to easily reattach the cutout comb. With 1-3/8" slats of thin plywood screwed onto the tops of the frames they fit perfectly next to the rest of the top bars and keep the roof nice and solid.

Definitely give em a try, I know I'll be sticking with this design for my 3 packages coming in next year.


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## Cloverdale

Shai said:


> Thank you both. The plans page on that horizontal hive page is handy.
> 
> Honestly I'm trying to avoid any sort of stacked boxes simply because I'm not getting any younger and my on-property hive location is in a place that can be difficult to reach with any sort of vehicle (basically a clearing in the wood near my house). Even getting a wheelbarrow back there can be tricky in a wet year.
> 
> But I already have a big stack of top bars and with being right here on property it's not a hardship to go and move bars around frequently if needed. Gives me an excuse to poke around a bit. So I'd like to keep using them if it's reasonable, rather than starting over with frames.
> 
> I was just wondering about the straight sides for ease of building without leaving little SHB crevasses along edges.


I have a friend who makes his horizontal hives. He started by using Lang deep frames and made a board that covers the top of the bars so the bees aren't coming out at you. He made the board in sections so he could inspect a small area at a time. His long hives are 3 deep long. He is going to use no foundation this year, let them build their own. His construction has insulation in them for all types of weather, from keeping the hive from overheating in the summer to keeping the hive warmer in the winter. It is set up like a tbh with the entrance at the end, brood near the entrance and honey at the end. Big enough to split the hive if needed and keep the split in the same hive with follower boards separating them. You can use top bars in them too. No need to use the frames. Bee Culture had a good article on long langs in their October edition.


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## swbrock

Cloverda le said:


> He started by using Lang deep frames and made a board that covers the top of the bars so the bees aren't coming out at you. He made the board in sections so he could inspect a small area at a time.


I love being able to inspect a TBH without exposing entire boxes of bees at a time. I haven't kept a Lang myself, but have definitely noticed that my bees are a lot calmer during inspections than those in friend's Lang hives.

If you want to use Lang frames in a horizontal setup, try to make many small cover boards that cover fewer frames to keep your bees comfortable inside while exposing as few of then as possible. I now use top bars routed out to leave a 3/8" bee space between them when pushed together atop the hive, with a covering slat screwed onto each one. By unscrewing 3 cover slats and setting a slat 3 bars wide with 2.5" holes cut out with a hole saw, I can feed with jar feeders or use empty jars as impromptu supers. To add a super or to feed sugar blocks/fondant, just unscrew a few cover slats to let them move up.


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## BWrangler

Hi DaisyNJ and Everyone

>. . .which design would you suggest for colder climates?

For a cold climate, I prefer a hive with comb taller than a deep frame. My hive designs reflect that. They are very tall for a top bar hive, as they were designed for Wyoming's climate.

Tall combs give the bees more winter options, but they are heavier which exacts a price compared to shorter comb in smaller hives:

new comb is fragile especially when hot. 
more sidewall comb attachments with new, larger comb. 
larger comb demands proper comb handling technique. 
honey might be harder to harvest in areas with small, erratic honey flows. 
larger top bar hives are heavier and more awkward to move. 

Derived from my 3 deep Langstroth hive experience, these larger comb top bar hives met my cold climate needs. And the bees did well in them.

There are other options. Michael Bush successfully runs medium frame sized long hives in eastern Nebraska. I don't have any top bar hive experience with comb that short.

A top bar hive with comb that short has its own set of liabilities. But bees are very adaptable creatures, I suspect they would survive in a top bar hive with comb as short as a medium frame.


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