# Converting to Mediums



## GeeBeeNC (Aug 23, 2005)

There are so many topics floating in Michael's book thread that I decided to separate this one.

I bought my equipment planning to standardize on mediums but had the opportunity to adopt an established hive. Of course that hive was in a deep. I'll be wanting to eliminate the deep as soon as I can. I'm guessing that will be in the spring. What's the best way to do that? What should I look for to know when it's time to make the move? I have two mediums of stores on my deep for the coming winter. Will I find the cluster high in the spring when I first open?


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Mediums are a joy to use. They way that I would go about converting would be to trap the queen in mediums (below the deeps) in spring. This should end up looking a lot like the demaree method which others have described really well on this site. Unfortunately you will need a friend to help remove the deeps once they fill up with honey.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

I would just invert the boxes in the spring and add supers under the deep. The bees will fill from the top down and you can harvest the honey when the deep is full and capped. I didn't see it in your post, but if you are under 14, female, or handicapped, you may need help harvesting a deep. Many solitary beeks use deeps only. I did until I hit 60.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are many methods that will work. Some are quicker than others, some take more work. But all will work eventually.

If it was me, I'd try to send them into winter as you are, with the mediums on the hive. In my observation, in my climate, the bees will end up in the top box in the spring. Then you can just remove the deep, harvest any left over honey (or leave it out to get cleaned up by the bees or uncap it and put it above an inner cover) and retire or cut it down.

Other options have been mentioned. IF by some strange chance they are still in the deep, I'd try to end up with at least one frame of brood (cut and tie into medium or steal from another hive) in the medium and the queen in the medium and an excluder that keeps her out of the deep. 

The brute force method is to cut all the brood out and tie it into medium frames and harvest the deeps full of honey.


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## Mitch (Jul 7, 2003)

I did the same deal backwards i use deeps for the brood nest.I had to put a swarm in 2 mediums I was out of equipmet. In the spring the bees were in the deep i put on top I just took off the meds.and put on another deep.But now i had to do the same again.I am thinking of all mediums myself now.It cooling off here in Oh and aurther is calling again.My B Day is tomarrow and my back is telling me to use deeps for feeder jar covers only.So there will likely be more medium hives in my beeyards next sping.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Deeps aren't that hard to cut down to mediums. I cut down a lot of deep boxes and frames.







The boxes are cake. Just saw 3" off the bottom. The frames are a bit more detailed work but doable.

Now I'm cutting down all the 10 frames to 8 frames.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

>>Just saw 3" off the bottom.

Save those 3" squares and you can make some of the ventilated tops discussed in another thread. They work perfect and you don't have to make any special frames. Just drill a few 3/4" holes around the perimeter add some 1/8" hardware cloth on the backside of the holes and you have a great ventilation system above your inner cover. Thats how I got mine!!!

Dan


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Save those 3" squares 

Yes. Save them. You can use them for lots of things.







Like an Oxalic Acid evaporator or ventlation unit or baggie feeder or a slatted rack or...


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## dgoodman (May 30, 2005)

Michael Bush,

You write, "Deeps aren't that hard to cut down to mediums."

Why not just put in follower boards to both reduce the weight and manage the hive? I ask this is this is the preferred method of my instructor.

Thanks

Dg


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why not just put in follower boards to both reduce the weight and manage the hive? I ask this is this is the preferred method of my instructor.

If it works for you and you're happy with the weight, that's great. Nothing wrong with it at all.

I'd rather lift an eight frame medium, myself. You could also cut 10 frame deeps down to 10 frame mediums and put in two follower boards and you might get close to the weight I'd like.

This spring when I was helping a friend inspect a lot of deeps looking for queens I realized how much nicer medium frames are when you're holding them at arms length looking for queens.


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## wjw777 (Mar 24, 2002)

Hey Mitch,
First of all , have a happey and blessed birthday. It is always a pleasure seeing you on here, I switched to mediums this year and love it. easier to lift and alot easiier when it comes to buying frames and boxes , don't have to look and see what will fit with what i have avaible. everything is the same. I don/t think i will ever go back to deeps again and the bees dont seem to mind a bit. Again buddy, Happy Birthday. Walt


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## Mitch (Jul 7, 2003)

Thanks Walt
I took a dew days few days off work and my computer at hope is down, so work is the onlt place i can get online.I am not an oldtimer yet but do not want to rush it either.I agree about everything matching and not haveing to hunt for what will work.I think i am going to switch over slowly over a few saesons.Oh yea i am now 44 lol


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## Mitch (Jul 7, 2003)

Thanks Walt
I took a dew days few days off work and my computer at hope is down, so work is the onlt place i can get online.I am not an oldtimer yet but do not want to rush it either.I agree about everything matching and not haveing to hunt for what will work.I think i am going to switch over slowly over a few saesons.Oh yea i am now 44 lol


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## Robert Hicks (Sep 28, 2005)

Karen Lorence, a local beekeeper here says that she reccomends Mediums for brood. But suggests shallows for honey as even a medium is heavy when filled with honey.

What are we talking about here weight wise?


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I don't know exact weights but certainly a shallow is lighter than a medium. Other than weight the main problem with that is the same issue you have with using deeps and meds. Interchangeability. (is that a word?)

The benefit of having all one size is the ability to pull frames from one box or several from one hive and it will fit in any other box(es) in any other hive or nuc.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Karen Lorence, a local beekeeper here says that she reccomends Mediums for brood. But suggests shallows for honey as even a medium is heavy when filled with honey.

Which is why I like the eight frame mediums. All the same size frames and the supers are only about 48 pounds.

Exact weights are hard to say since they vary by how full the bees made it, how low the moisture content is, what material the box and frames and foundation are made of etc.

But averaged out, my observation of boxes full of honey is:

10 frame deep = 90 pounds
10 frame medium = 60 pounds
10 frame shallow = 48 pounds
8 frame deep = 72 pounds
8 frame medium = 48 pounds
8 frame shallow = 40 pounds


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## Robert Hicks (Sep 28, 2005)

I think I forgot to mention the number of frames.

My bad.


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## wjw777 (Mar 24, 2002)

Hey Guys,
Beautiful day here in Brunswick Ohio, my friend who i started with bees came over and we went into the hive. 30 days ago all three medium supers were empty two of the boxes just had foundation and the third had drawn comb. Opend the hive and bees everywhere between the outer garden cover and inner cover . took off intercover all frames drawn and filled except for the 3rd super end frames drawn filled on one side outer only drawn. so, 3 supers 28 frames full capped waiting for me to relieve them of thier harvest . I felt like a kid in a candy store. We put the triangle on and plan to remove them tomorrow. Any suggestions or comments that might help me? These bees are a swarm i got from a supermarket{Giant Eagle} that landed on one of there carts the manager called me at 10 PM and asked me if i still had bees and if i wanted them, they called the exterinator and he said he would stop him from killing them if i came i work for the same company and when i wenet there they had it roped off and it was so neat to see this swarm . These bees are mixed in color but very gentle ,when smoked they dissappear. so guys for saving them they really repaid me . And Giant Eagle Supermarket is truly a full service store. LOL Walt
Mitch I wish i was 44 in fact I wish i could remember when i was 44 LOL


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Ok, Last year, I got on the kick of "all one size" and considering $$-to-end result, decided on deeps. so I phased out my few mediums and spent the winter building deeps. The more I read about you guys using mediums, the more tempting it sounded. Then last week I go out to my hives where I have a couple of mediums on for them to clean out, and the rest are deeps. I swooshed the mediums off, and then grabbed the first deep by the handles...........

Short of it is that I'm now planning on cutting down as well later if not sooner. I suppose I have approximately 20 boxes and 200 frames or so. 

How do you cut the frames down?

Waya


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## Lew Best (Jan 8, 2005)

Hey Waya

I'm not much of a woodworker but I tried taking the bottom bars off some used frames, cutting the end bars down & just nailed them to the cut of bottom of the end bars. Did 10; the bottom bars were so hard to get off without damaging them (I broke a coupla bottom bars) I decided they weren't worth messing with. IIRC the new frames I bought from Kelley were about 50 something cents each new in hundred lots. Of course if your deep frames are new you can probably sell them & just buy new meds.

Just my opinion; boxes definitely worth cutting down; frames not!

Lew in TX


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## Robert Hicks (Sep 28, 2005)

Does Dadant or someone else sell medium frames?
I only found deep and shallow.

Thanks,

Rob


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I think all the bee suppliers sell med frames. They are 6 1/4" frames. Dadant, Kelleys, Betterbee, Brushy Mountain, Mann Lake, Western Bee Supply, etc... You can buy them with wood frames and your choice of foundations or one piece plastic frames. Do a search and you will find several threads discussing the pro's and cons and opinions of the various frames/ foundations.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How do you cut the frames down?

I set the table saw fence at 6 1/4" and sawed the end bars down. Then, with a carbide blade (because of nails) and glasses (for the pieces of nails), and the fence set at 3/8" I ran the bottom bars through and cut the end bars off from the bottom and then put the resulting bottom between the ends and nailed from the sides. An occasional split bottom I repaced with a triangular piece (for foundationless).

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/DeepCutToMedium2.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/DeepCutToMedium.JPG

>the bottom bars were so hard to get off without damaging them (I broke a coupla bottom bars)

I'd say impossible, that's why I didn't even try. I just cut the bottom off of the frames and cut the ends off of the bottom bar.

>Does Dadant or someone else sell medium frames?

Every supplier I know does. They may call them a number of things:

Medium frames
Illinois frames
3/4 depth frames

There are three 6 1/4" frames here:
http://www.dadant.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=23_42&osCsid=4f5d08cffae5ddfdb5a68b55a3c0b360

Several here:
http://go.netgrab.com/secure/kelleystore/asp/product.asp?product=163


http://www.beeequipment.com/products.asp?pcode=148

A couple of 6 1/4" here:

http://www.mannlakeltd.com/catalog/page8.htm

And here:

http://www.westernbee.com/


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## Robert Hicks (Sep 28, 2005)

One more question:

Does 5 1/2 coated plasticell, fit 6 1/4 frames?


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Michael, is the point on the bottom bar important for foundationless? I understand the top bar if you're not doing a starter strip. Is the bottom point for strength? Would you wire a foundationless (do they build around wire reliably)?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does 5 1/2 coated plasticell, fit 6 1/4 frames?

It should fit a 6 1/4" frame with a grooved top and bottom bar.

>is the point on the bottom bar important for foundationless?

No, but as long as I was cutting one, I cut them that way. They attach it a bit sooner if it's a triangle as opposed to a regular square one. I don't care enough about it to change all my bottom bars or add them to my bottom bars, but when making them from scratch it's easy to cut the corner off of a one by and cut them from that.

>I understand the top bar if you're not doing a starter strip. Is the bottom point for strength? 

It just encourages them to attach it sooner instead of leaving a gap at the bottom of the comb.

>Would you wire a foundationless

I have not, but you can. I have not found it necessary.

>(do they build around wire reliably)?

It depends on what you mean by "reliably". If the hive is perfectly level and the wire is in the center it will tend to be in the center of the comb. If the hive is off kilter and the comb may run at an angle in relation to the frame and not go through the center of the wire.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

By the way, Where is this Michael Bush's Book thread mentioned in the first post??
Waya


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

this, I think

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000815


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## GeeBeeNC (Aug 23, 2005)

That would be it!


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## Hayseed (Apr 25, 2004)

"There are many methods that will work. Some are quicker than others, some take more work. But all will work eventually."

I converted two of my six colonies this year. Once the spring weather was warm enough, I removed the bottom deep, which was void of capped brood, and added a drawn medium on top of the remaining deep. Within three weeks, there were 3 or 4 medium frames with brood. I then simply split the colonies. I gave the deep colonies to a friend who had lost his to a bear.
I guess if you didn't want more colonies you could put the left over deeps in a field and let them be robbed.
Next spring I'm going to convert more, if the mediums do as well through our winter.

Dale


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My mediums have always wintered fine. Some studies have shown that they will overwinter better in mediums because of better communication between the frames.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Some studies have shown that they will 
> overwinter better in mediums because of 
> better communication between the frames.

Wow, I've never seen those papers, and thought
I was "well read". Any chance of an author
name, an institution name, or any clue that
might help me to track down those studies?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>Some studies have shown that they will 
>> overwinter better in mediums 

>Any chance of an author
name, an institution name, or any clue that
might help me to track down those studies? 

Steve Forrest of Brushy Mt. has made that statement, about studies showing better wintering in mediums, in several of his past catalogs. I have not seen the studies but also have not known him to say such things if they weren't true. Perhaps he could point you to them.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Dr. C. L. Farrar was a big advocate of medium supers for brood chambers. Each had a hole drilled around the handle with a cork. He got the bees to move up or down by the use of corks. He did quite a bit of work using med supers for two queen hives. Dr. Farrar wrote many articles about his research in Bee Culture and ABJ in the forties & fifties. He ran around 400 hives all in mediums in the north.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Bob what were the corks for?


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

In an article in June of 1946 Bee Culture on using five 20 IN. BY 20 IN. TWELVE FRAME med depths for a two queen system Farrar uses the corks *instead* of reversing. 

The bee lab when writing about the use of three mediums talks of constant reversing. Same with five mediums for two queens.

Dr. Farrar eliminates the problem with the use of corks for the only entrance before the main honey flow. HE OPENED THE LOWER ENTRANCE AT THE START OF THE HONEY FLOW.

In spring he plugs the lower wide entrance and uses the holes to move the bees into the box he wants *instead* of reversing.

I have kept bees in a deep and a medium (still do on a couple yards) but NEVER all mediums EXCEPT FOR TESTING DONE ON THE 20 IN. BY 20 IN. 12 FRAME MEDIUMS. I have still got 150 of those in the shed left from the tests. I did do tests on the use of the holes on three deeps with some degree of success.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't want to lift a 12 frame mediums.







But that might make a nice box for the bottom.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

So Bob,

Did you find that in general the bees set up shop in the box that had the opening. If not how do you reverse using corks?

Hawk


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes Hawk I did find the bees set up shop in the boxes that had the opening. Most of what you read about beekeeping both on the net and in books is the authors opinion. So will give mine. Dr. Farrar did research on mediums with controls and quite a bit is published but the magazines (if they still exist) are in the hands of a few beekeepers which hold keep the magazines instead of tossing which is usually what happens. Very hard to find old beekeeping articles.
I do not care for keeping bees in only mediums. The comb size is smaller than would be found in the wild and if you use several boxes a gap exists between the boxes which is not found in a feral bee nest. At times (in my opinion) the gap acts as a barrier.
Dr. Farrar acknowledged my observation and opinion in his articles but said the problem is overcome by keeping a large cluster.
I still prefer the standard comb for the brood nest. I really prefer the Jumbo size but although common when I started are rare in use today. Not rare in England.
Back to your question. The holes worked and you could "lead" the bees up (or down ) the stack of medium boxes. However my opinion was if left alone the bees in time would use the stack of boxes anyway.


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## mike_c (Jul 8, 2003)

I made a little jig that held one deep frame that I could run through my saw to make it a medium. I ran the frames through with the comb in them. I tried to pick ones with minimal honey or brood as I switched over. I can't extract those, of course, but I am getting a few more years out of what was some fresh comb. I don't get 'too much' comb extension by the bees afterwards. I cut down the boxes at the same time.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I had a few colonies die last winter. They had moved up to the gap between the mediums but didn't cross it. I suspect they starved right there.

Dick Marron


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

What kind of a gap are we talking about? Mine are no more than 3/8 of an inch apart (a bee space) where a bee can simply reach up and move from one surface to the other. If the cluster starts low and gradually works its way up --- considering that there are more stores of honey in the combs above, it is understandable that they should do fine.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've never had the problem of them not moving up. I always find them in the top box in the spring. I admit, I DON'T remove burr comb between the boxes. I just leave it so there are probably places where there is no gap.

The rationale behind them wintering better is that the cluster can move side to side better and so you don't get a little bunch of bees trapped on one side of the comb when the cluster contracts in a cold spell. My clusters usually span more than one box.


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## GABE (Jun 14, 2004)

As a newbee I started three hives in April this year. One has a deep (9 1/2) on bottom and all the rest of that hive and the other two are made of mediums.(even on bottom)
The hive with the deep bottem is the strongest colony and the other two are ok, but the bottom supers on the two without a deep are completely empty , the comb is not even drawn out. The brood is in the second box from the bottom.
I think if I could start over I would have a deep on the bottom af all hives and all the rest mediums so that they are easy to lift.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Somehow that sounds wrong. Remember when you started the deeps? You had the bees draw out the bottom box 80% before you gave them another box. When you converted you should have done the same thing. They shouldn't have a second box on top of undrawn foundation. In the spring, you'll need to reverse. I doubt if they can draw it out now. 

That am I saying you live in Santa Barbara. Every day is summer there. give it a try.

Hawk


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You can always move the empty ones on top of the full ones if they don't seem to want to work down. But usually I don't have a problem either way. I've seen them work their way down or up depending on where the space was.

I do think leaving burr between the boxes as ladders probably helps. If the bees build a ladder between the boxes, why would I want to deprive them of it?


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## GABE (Jun 14, 2004)

Ok -- I reversed the bottem boxes on the two hives that are all mediums. I will report the results in a couple of weeks.


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