# Russian Bees Pros and Cons.



## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Last spring I started four package of Russian’s form Jester Bees out of AK. Lost one queen right away so I combined with another hive not Russian. Later I lost another queen for an unknown reason. The two remaining never really took off like other races. They did manage to build up into fairly strong double deeps but got no surplus honey. It seemed like any slow down in nectar flow and the queen would stop laying. Today I finally got a chance to feed sugar syrup and found a lot more bees than I thought were in the hive when I gave them sugar patty’s about four days ago. The clusters must have been bigger that they looked they are easily the most vigorous hives out of the ten that survived the winter. The jury is still out on how well they will produce this year. I have heard some beekeepers refer to them as welfare bees.
I’d like to know how other beekeepers have faired with Russians.


----------



## wbell (Mar 5, 2005)

I've been using Russians for three years now and tend to like them. They do appear to be tolerant of V. mites and T. mites. They overwinter well, are frugal with the honey stores, and maintain a small cluster. If you are used to Italians this might alarm you. They start building up a little slower than Italians but once begun will practically explode with bees. This will lead to swarming because they have a habit of building queen cells, lots of them. I just give them plenty of space ( honey supers ) and monitor closely. During early spring buildup, Russians require pollen in addition to syrup if you are trying to stimulate brood rearing. 
They are temperamental ( they'll sting you ) until they get past the first brood cycle. 
During periods of dearth, the old girl will shut down and the colony will get moody again. Other than that , they are a cinch.


----------



## wbell (Mar 5, 2005)

Just one more thing, they produced as well as or better than my old Italians.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

*Field Day at Bee Breeding Lab*

The field day in Baton Rouge will have the latest on Russian bees and their management.

http://www.labeekeepers.org/11thfielday.html


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I like the russians. 

You have to balance the good and not so good. They overwinter with a smaller cluster. Use less stores. They shut down in a dearth.

So what does that mean?

When bees shut down, mite reproduction stops. So where perhaps italians are prolific layers, and I have a hard time understanding why someone wants that in the later part of July and August anyways, russians shut down. So eating themselves out of stores is not a problem.

They do go through winter with a smaller cluster. Lets combine that with...They SURVIVE going through winter with a smaller cluster. Although they are not perfect, the winter kill rate is at least 50% higher with my italians being non-treated. Whats this mean? I'll take the russians with a smaller cluster coming out of winter for the exchange of a higher rate of surviving colonies. I can build small clusters. Something I can't do with dead ones. 

I think this whole "sting more", "more agressive" and other commenst are part urban legends, and part grapevine chatter. Russians got bad press from southern breeders when they realized that russians would come through winter with small clusters and made them not ideal for package providers, etc. They need prolific layers with almost non-stop brood production. Their business is built on it. Russians do not fit that model.

But the average beekeeper does not need prolific layers 12 months out of the year. They need bees that will build up to strong hive strength for a short period of time to take advantage of a 6 or 8 week honey flow. And thats it. Thats something that can be managed. You can build russians in time for the spring flow with no problems. After the flow, its actually nice to have bees that handle dearths by shutting down, controlling mites, and not having to feed them constantly.

Italians build better in the spring but sometimes brood all season into the fall often eating themselves to death. And although I think they are nicer to work with for beginners, I'll take a better surviving bee that takes less effort and intervention. I want hives alive, and will tailor my management to take advantage, or offset any shortcomings.


----------



## mistergil (May 24, 2007)

BjornBee said:


> I like the russians. ...............


Well thought out. Thanks.


----------



## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

I don't care for Russians.
They tend to get hot and do not respond to smoke.
Very swarmy also

I find I am spending more and more time requeening hot hives that nearby beekeepers find aggressive that are from Russian linage.

In the book “Breeding of honey bees” by Bilash G.D., Krivtsov N.I - Moscow, Agropromizdat,
1991 Pages 83-85 
describe Russians

“Far Eastern Bees. Those bees can and should be classified as primitive strain,”

Primitive because although they may have some resistance to mites. They can be stingy and swarmy, traits that have been bred out of more developed strains.

Best Wishes,
Joe


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Joe,
You should make an effort to attend my annual picnic next year. I breed russians from a number of places including from breeder stock. Over a hundred people attended this past years picnic. We stood in the middle of my apiary and opened a full tbh, a two tower queen hive, countless hives and nucs...with many of them russians. Certainly enough activity and bumbling hands lifting frames to cause a sting. And although almost nobody wore protective clothing, not one person was stung. Thats an open bee yard with a hundred people constantly viewing bees....not one sting.

So for me.....your 16 year old qoute from some obscure book means little to me.

I stick my neck out every year for evaluation, review, and critism by those who actually buy my bees and attend my various open house functions. Many attended by beesource members. 

I find it interesting that you use a reference that comments on selected traits, but yet base your opinion on comments from beekeepers who suggest problems based on russian linage. Maybe they stunk at selecting the good stock from year to year. My own guess would be they selected for nothing to begin with....... 

I would suggest that selection priorities have changes a little since this comment dated 1991. And although many comments at that time had russians as nasty, uncontrollable, and not worth a lick from the start, I don't think thats true today.

I'll place my reputation on any beekeeper visiting my yards, as opposed to a 16 year old comment. Should I make a rebuttal with someone who has made good comments about russians opposing what he said? Would that carry any wieght, or at least as much as you must place in the one you posted?


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Joe,
How does the managed russians coming from good breeders compare to your feral bee lines (wild and not just swarms?)that have not been through any selection process. Are these bees also swarmy and stingy?

I know you speak highly of your ferals. But unless those bees have been nothing more than swarms from so-called "developed strains", would they also fall into this "primitive" strain catagory?

I know the true feral german black bees was nasty and swarmy. So are your ferals from this stock? Or just from a linage of other more developed lines, and really not much more then that?

I guess if your suggesting that over the years breeders have not improved the strain of russians, that we must still place wieght in a comment 16 years old, I would find it hard to believe you made much progress on your own stock within this same time period? Am I wrong on this?


----------



## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

BjornBee said:


> I find it interesting that you use a reference that comments on selected traits, but yet base your opinion on comments from beekeepers who suggest problems based on russian linage.


Hello Mike,

Actually, it is I that suggest problems based on Russian linage. I have adopted the adage ‘three stripes your out’ in my queen selections and in feral gathering. In my experience, they get too hot and with predictability. They are also known to follow a greater distance than Italians when attacking, a trait often selected against. 



BjornBee said:


> I'll place my reputation on any beekeeper visiting my yards, as opposed to a 16 year old comment. Should I make a rebuttal with someone who has made good comments about russians opposing what he said? Would that carry any wieght, or at least as much as you must place in the one you posted?


Yes, but then again, breeders will promote the bees they sell above all others. But believe me when I say that I dislike that I must say these things about Russians because I have several people I like that breed and keep Russians including yourself. 

Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA 
‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' 
FeralBeeProject.com


----------



## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

BjornBee said:


> Joe,
> How does the managed russians coming from good breeders comapare to your feral bee lines (wild and not just swarms?)that have not been through any selection process. Are these bees also swarmy and stingy?


Hello Mike,

In 2002 I personally made several email exchanges with Dr Rinderer who was heading the team that went to the Primorsky territory of Russia for the Russian bees. He stated that lines at that time went to a selected few top breeders, and that is where I purchased my Russian queens directly from a source he recommended. 

These Russians were ok the first year, but got extremely hot and uncontrollable the next season. I am rather capable of controlling hot colonies, but these bees would not respond to smoke at any time during the second season. Being in a woodland area the Russians also shut down very hard with brood rearing for me, and this is catastrophic for my goldenrod surplus. Fearing they would get out into the feral population, I replaced all the queens.

I am pleased that the ferals in my area with particular markings are gentile. What I believe to be Russian linage swarms with striped queens tend get stingy on me. I told my neighbor when I inspected his colonies that he said were hot that ‘this is normal for Russians’, but he insisted that he wanted the ferals I keep that he thought were gentler. The feral I select is much like the Italian bee in that they want to throw one prime swarm then the urge is satisfied, but this is easily controlled with swarm prevention. 




BjornBee said:


> Joe,
> I know you speak highly of your ferals. But unless those bees have been nothing more than swarms from so-called "developed strains", would they also fall into this "primitive" strain catagory?


According to the book Russians are the result of very recent (19 century) excursive crosses, and swarms here in the USA IMO not primitive as they are generally not from excursive crosses. 

Speaking of Russians in the book:
“They populate territory of Chitinsky, Amursky, Khabarovsky and Primorsky regions, where Far Eastern bee formed as primitive strain from the end of 19-th century till present times as result of excursive crosses of bees introduced by frontiersmen mostly of
Ukrainian strain, less - central Russian strain, lesser - yellow and gray Caucasian strain and much lesser - Italian strain, and also as result of natural and artificial selection. As result of heterogeneous origin Far Eastern bees differ from other strains by greater amplitude of variability, however according main characteristics quite answer to conditions of primitive strain (array of specific features, their stabile inheritance from generation to generation, great number of families, which exclude probability of relative crosses in big scale and so on).”



BjornBee said:


> I know the true feral german black bees was nasty and swarmy. So are your ferals from this stock? Or just from a linage of other more developed lines, and really not much more then that?


No I’m not seeing German blacks here at all. I believe the dominate ferals here are from Italian linage, you can see in this pick of a feral swarm entering a trap.

http://s109.photobucket.com/albums/n41/pcolar/?action=view&current=DCP_1959.jpg



BjornBee said:


> I would find it hard to believe you made much progress on your own stock within this same time period? Am I wrong on this?


That’s a good point.
But I will say that I did not need to make any aggressive changes to my stock, they are as they are, gentile, resistant, and productive.
I did however have great difficulty in getting brood viability up to par. But I belive now it was due to the lack of many ferals in the vicinity of my breeding yard causing the problem. Now ferals back in force, viability is great. 

Best Wishes,

Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA 
‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' 
FeralBeeProject.com


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

So what happened to the russians the second season Joe? Were they the same queen? Are you saying you let them swarm and supercede on their own? You mention they were "swarmy" by your personal assessment, so I should assume they replaced the queen without any selection process or beekeeper involvement?

If the original line was good, why was the line allowed to change? Are you saying they changed on their own, without supercedure? Or was this the best your efforts produced, through your own selection and propogation?

I find it facinating how individual breeders can claim tremendous improvements in one area of their own bees, and yet use decade old information in assessing another stock they do not use.

Regardless of your individual experience and "ancient as bees go" qoutes from the past, I stand behind my comment to openly invite anyone into my yards. I hear many good things from breeders of russians including several breeders from this site. The amount of satisfied customers and freely given testimonials are enough to question some guys comments from 16 years ago.

You commented along the lines that "one always comments good about what one sells". I would rather comment good about what I sell, with the policy of open visits to my yard, and openly invite critism and evaluation....instead of openly commenting on another persons line of bees that I don't sell or never had. I use positive selling techniques, as opposed to the negative sales approach.

I have heard and read various comments about ferals, and what people think about the lines of ferals. Some have indicated that ferals today for the most part are nothing more then swarms cast off from hives of other beekeepers. Yet, everytime you mention "feral" bees, I do not use the opportunity to remind others of what many think of ferals. That they are just caught swarms with a hijacked inproperly used term attached. 

We had recently just discussed feral bees and the definitions that are applied to the term. Often incorrectly. In that thread, I mentioned that instaed of relying on labels and overall generalized comments about one strain or another, that perhaps beekeepers should get to know the breeder and educate themselves as to what the breeder does and what he selects for. I believe I use tim tarhiet as an example if anyone remembers my comments. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212666&page=3

As for me, I personally think that feral bees, and perhaps your own discussion on ferals is way overblown and hyped. I think that for many feral colonies captured, that they are nothing more than recently cast swarms. Certainly little beyond the genetics that anyone else has. But do I, or should I, mention this and back it up with 16 year old comments, everytime one makes mention of ferals. Heavens no! If you are doing great things with your bees (I had thoight so, but now your suggesting that you did little, and they were near perfect from the start), then I suggest others should learn what you are doing, what makes your bees better through your efforts, and quit relying on generalized comments with vague qoutes.
I also have said the same for russians many times. Get to know a breeder. I think fatbeeman has russians. Many speak highly of his bees, as well as many other breeders.

I wish beekeepers would put more criteria in assessing breeders then listening to generalized comments. My own assesssment and comments on ferals here where I live could be vastly different then where Joe lives. Its wrong for me to use this assessment in applying it to Joe and his efforts. The same can be said about applying a qoute 16 years old in assessing another persons russian stock.

So....My advice to anyone,

Positive sell your own stuff, and stop negative selling another persons stuff. If the breeder and his bees stink,..... that all comes out without the input of others who have no experience with the first persons stock to begin with.

Get to know your breeder. Broad comments casting negative generalized comments usually are wrong, and are sometimes used for self serving interests.


----------



## shawnwri (Jul 31, 2006)

I have 2 new (this year) colonies of Russians and Italians sitting next to each other. They both are fairly gentle, though the Italians are producing more. I had some initial trouble with the Russians as they moved up into the hive top feeder at installation and started building comb and rearing brood up there. Next time I would start them out in a nuc. It will be interesting to see how they both overwinter. All in all, I like them.


----------



## Meadow Stone Farm (May 4, 2005)

*brood shutdown*

our goldenrod is starting here too (along with burdock, jewelweed, sunflowers and clover still). i have two russian hives, both started from nucs this year. I was in the brood boxes last week and they had 10 frames of brood a piece. We have had unseasonably cold temperatures in the last few weeks and they are on open screened bottom boards. They don't seem to be slowing rearing down. They can be very hot though, I never go into those hives without at least gloves (I popped a cover once with no gloves and got stung on the hands).

Kris


----------



## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

Hello, Joe and Mike:

Can you provide us with some sort of lineage from where your russians originated? Joe, from your statement above you indicate that yours are from a source recommended by Dr. Rinderer of bee stock from the Primorsky territory of Russia - but, how reliable is your source? And, Mike, you indicated in the past that you are perhaps not firmly certain of your stock's background:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211551&highlight=russian

One variable that might be discussed regarding the production, temperament and overwintering characteristics of various bee strains are possibly the climate of origin, and how that might play into the individual beekeeper's variability of the assessment of bee stock in their climate. For example, if the Primorsky region is a collection point for Russian stock, the climate in that region has short, cold and sunny winters, with primarily cloudy and rainy summers. How does that compare to your climate, and will the bee strain adapt well to your individual situation? The Italian strain is from a Mediterranean region - perhaps that is a good reason why there is a slow spring brood build up, with resultant large cluster for overwintering.

I think that instead of taking jabs (and we all know who likes to take jabs) at a breeder's personal preferences for different strains of bees, that we instead discuss actual results of bee strains in different climate regions. In that way, we might be able to set aside differences of opinion regarding bee strains with some constructive empirical results. Hey, we might even learn something!

My 2 cents... What a value!

MM


----------



## beaglady (Jun 15, 2004)

I like them. I've had Russians for the past 3 years. Some started as nucs, some as packages. I did lose some hives last winter, but the ones that survived were Russian stock. 3 of the 4 packages I got this spring now have 3 meds of bees plus 5 of honey. 

I've had grumpy, head butting, stingy bees before, self-requeened Italians actually, but the Russians I have are gentle enough. We mow right in from of them, the dog caught a chipmunk in the stones the hives sit on last night without a sting, and I've replaced feeders without gloves. I wear dish gloves & haven't had more then 2 stings all season. 

Knock wood, I haven't had any swarms from them, and only one queen cell this year. It was s supercedure cell & I let them hatch the queen. These requeened bees are as calm as any of my other hives.


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Mapman,
Please do not take an overall view or a pinpointed question and applying it to assume that I don't know what I have. I actually question the whole industry as to the purity of ANY stock, whether russian or other.

My stock came from hardeman's, Jester, Glenn (breeder queens), Jeff Davis(who buys direct from Harpers), and a few others that I'd have to think about. I have bought alot of russians over the past 5 or so years from a variety of sources.

My questions about purity is from across the board. But I can at least be certain as to much of my stock as compared to collecting ferals and using broad terms such as "seems like italian linage" and other vague comments.

MM, I think your discussion about climate is not really on target. What would that matter if one beekeeper got his from one breeder who happened to be good or bad, and the next beekeeper got his from another breeder with different characteristics such as defensiveness or swarminess.

I have often said that you have good italian breeders and bad. You have good russian breeder and bad. Unless you intend to dismiss the breeders efforts and catagorize all strains with concrete statements, then wouldn't it matter where the stock came from, instead of broad strokes of generalized comments.

BTW...."I think that instead of taking jabs (and we all know who likes to take jabs)"....wasn't that a jab of your own...


----------



## Gene O (Feb 19, 2006)

*Russian bees pro and cons*

My 2cents worth 3 years ago i bought 10 nuc of russians and lost 4 the first year anthe next year lost 4 more came out this spring with 2 hives built up slow but after got to goning just exploted. got 3 full med supers of each in jun. I wouldn't want any calmer bee have never been stung by my russian in 3 years work them without vail or smoke,only tshirt cap on . I hear all the bad talk about them but not so in my book.


----------



## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

Mike -

Please excuse my ignorance.

Just trying to learn. I guess that I really don't understand the underlying concept of your objection to domestic "Feral stock" strains derived and being currently developed in a very similar fashion to the Russian strains, which were developed over time from the European honeybee's (_Mellifera_) contact with eastern Russian feral stock. 

MM


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

See MM, thats the problem. I do acknowledge the same developement.

Did I not say that taking my own personal assessment of ferals in my area, and making broad comments and applying them to another persons bees, as with Joe, would be wrong. You betcha!

The problem I have is for a person to take one individual experience such as Joe's and make his assessment of russians. Not that his admitted short experience is bad enough, and I would not have had a problem with that. We all need to express our opinions. But what he did was take a comment almost 20 years old to further his claim.

This does not allow for recognizing individual breeders efforts. In the past twenty years, we have developed smr, vhs, and seen many selection improvements. And for the many times that Joe has been on this board mentioning his selection criteria and improvements....he uses a twenty year old comment, much outdated, and apllies this assessment to russians across the board. Thereby never even acknowledging individual efforts. Give me a freakin break!

You can not have a one time experience with any strain, and cast such broad and vague assessments. I acknowledged previously that there are good breeders and bad breeders. Good russians and bad russians. And I certainly do not collect a few feral colonies, and then assess them to be nothing more than recent swarms, and somehow ignorantly apply that assessment to every "feral" stock there is. As I already said, Joe may have something completely different from me. I have said repeatedly that its what the breeders does with the stock that matters, and not so much as to where it came from.

My proof is the many people who not only buy from me, but attend various fuctions at my yards. I will not call them out but a couple have already posted on this thread. Thats proof. No assessments on onetime events or outdated writings.

So yes, wiping all efforts of individual breeders clean off the slate and making(repeating)broad comments that are more then 16 years old is a bit much for me to swallow. One should not comments on their own selection and breeding efforts if your going to somehow suggest nobody else is making noteworthy advances also. To suggest that the russians are the same based on almost twenty year old comments, then it really cast doubt into your own breeding efforts, does it not? 

I have nothing against Joe's bees or ferals in general. Except for the fact I think they are overhyped and the term is misused, I am sure many have good stock derived from feral colonies. I have commented that you should get to know the breeder and thereby know what he does and whats going on.

But everytime someone asks about russians, I see it unfair to make such broad statements, when most beekeepers will agree that there are vast differences between breeders and what happens to the stock within each programs. 

Please do not misread my examples as meaning more than they are. I made them to make a point.


----------



## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

Mike:

Your quote: ...Thereby never even acknowledging individual efforts...

I think that in order to assess progress made in breeding efforts, it would be nice if we (in my case just a hobbyist) are able to get some feedback from others without all of the hoopla, so to speak. It is tiring to see threads touting this and that strain, with all of the bantering, and without substance. 

Okay, I'm very close to trying Russians out next year. I see that you are on Glenn's resource listing as a provider. Seriously, I'd like to purchase from you -- tell me what you have done to better your bee stock, so I (and others) can make an educated purchase. I want to acknowledge your individual effort.

MM


----------



## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

try them, just make sure you dont have fire ants like here where I am at, got 7 russians this year and the ant will travel past 5 of my other hives to run the russians out, only have 2 left, they doing ok so for, been about 3 months now.....


----------



## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

TwT said:


> try them, just make sure you dont have fire ants like here where I am at, got 7 russians this year and the ant will travel past 5 of my other hives to run the russians out, only have 2 left, they doing ok so for, been about 3 months now.....


Ted - sorry about those fire ants. We don't have those nasties up here, but I did have contact with them when I was on a surveying crew while in SC many years ago. In fact, the owner of the firm (an elderly man) was killed when accidentally falling into a nest. Hope the rest of your hives fare well.

Take care,

MM


----------



## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

I can't figure that one out T? I've heard you say it before, but it just don't jive with my experience. I haven't lost any bees to the fire ants and we are in the same big nest down here.

MM, I think you should give the Russians a try, if for nothing else just so you can make your own judgments of the bees. I keep them, Italians and Carniolans. I keep them in separate yards and do my best to breed them true. But some crossing is inevitable. I know from my own experience that the first cross between the Russians and the Italians can make a very productive bee and gentle. But subsequent breeding of the bees tend to be hateful as sin. And I wouldn't dare say that they all are, but I look for it to happen but prefer not to allow that to happen.

I agree with Bjorns analysis of the bee. That is pretty much exactly what I have seen from mine. Someone up the line here mentioned that the Italians are slow to build in the spring. But I must say they have it backwards. The Italians will outbuild the Russians by a solid two to three weeks. BUT (Big but) once the Russians have gotten up there numbers a little they will explode with brood and catchup unbelievably fast. It is a sight to behold. They will also stop short of the colony size of the Italians and get busy putting up surplus honey. In the end, they will be very close in production with the Italians. I have found the Carniolans to be very much the same.

But for me to pick one............ sorry, I can't and won't. Not now. Maybe sometime, but I still enjoy them all.


----------



## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I like them ever since I got a bunch of them in and got to take a super OFF each hive in the spring. They ARE frugal. Gentle too. So much so that I worry about them.

Dickm


----------



## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

This is a pretty good thread in my opinion.
In fact we never have had the luxury of all the types of bees--but that is changing fast.
Next year we shall have our usual mutts, bee log hive, swarm hives, cutout hives, Italian hives, Russian hives,NWC hives to compare.
How can you choose a favorite?
There should be a checklist of likes and dislikes to make this job more palatable.


----------



## Moonshae (Jun 7, 2007)

I think I'd like to see the people that are happy with their Russians say who supplied them, as well as the people who don't do the same. In my opinion, generalizing either way about a strain doesn't help people pick the good breeders...If your experience with bees from a particular breeder is great, why not tell people, so they can at least attempt to have a similar experience?

It seems that as people say this breeder produces good Russians, and that one not, over time, the good/bad breeders will be well defined. 

This thread is three pages, and if I were in the market for Russians, I wouldn't know what breeders to avoid, and the only one who's described good traits is BjornBee. BB can't supply the beekeeping world with Russians, and there are other breeders who have Russians with similarly good traits, so why not promote them? Especially with such glowing opinions, from those of you with good opinions. Knowing who to avoid is also a big plus.

I'm a new beekeeper, and I have Italians. This will be my first winter coming up, but I have active plans for expansion, and I'd like to try other races, and I'm inclined to make Russians my first foray. But I don't want to go to Google to find a supplier, I'd like to see real recommendations of good, reliable breeders.


----------



## mountainvalleybee (May 13, 2007)

*russian bees*

although we use mixed ferals, i believe if you use any strain of bee which has a good genetic base, and are in truth a good selector, not a genetic manipulator,, you should have reasonable success selecting a good bee, one which should at least be good in your own area and possibly many others, part of the reason for the original russians problems could have been related to the bees with which they were mixing, friends of mine who have tried them have had results of all types both good and bad, which leads me to believe part of the problem was as stated, as some of them had different results depending on where they purchased their bees.


----------



## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

Moonshae said:


> I think I'd like to see the people that are happy with their Russians say who supplied them, as well as the people who don't do the same. In my opinion, generalizing either way about a strain doesn't help people pick the good breeders...If your experience with bees from a particular breeder is great, why not tell people, so they can at least attempt to have a similar experience?
> 
> It seems that as people say this breeder produces good Russians, and that one not, over time, the good/bad breeders will be well defined.
> 
> ...


Yes, it would be nice to have some feedback on just breeders - On this site there is the Consumer Report section, but perhaps folks are reluctant to report on breeders. I think that they also might not wish to name less-than-favorable suppliers of bees because it might be an isolated incident. 

In any case, I'd like to see more reviews of experiences on the different strains; how they wintered, controlled disease/pests, their temperament and swarming, brood patterns, comb quality, how they produced in comparison to other strains. It is getting close to the time where we are all going to be analyzing this year's production, and planning next year's endeavors. I'd like to plan on which breeder to choose as a supply for next year's stock. My plan is to quadruple the number of my colonies next year.

MM


----------



## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

BjornBee said:


> So what happened to the russians the second season Joe? Were they the same queen? Are you saying you let them swarm and supercede on their own?
> 
> Bjorn, when this happens to me, or when the opposite happens a warm hive gets gentler, I assume the queen has ran out of the sperm of one drone and has started laying eggs fertilized with a gentle drone. I know this sounds overly simple, but I think it explains a lot.


----------



## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Moonshae said:


> I think I'd like to see the people that are happy with their Russians say who supplied them, as well as the people who don't do the same. In my opinion, generalizing either way about a strain doesn't help people pick the good breeders...If your experience with bees from a particular breeder is great, why not tell people, so they can at least attempt to have a similar experience?
> 
> It seems that as people say this breeder produces good Russians, and that one not, over time, the good/bad breeders will be well defined.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't mind more feedback on my queens. If nobody says anything when they have a problem, it is difficult to correct it. Some on this forum know that I will go far beyond normal customer satisfaction, even if it means I lose money. I have purchased queens from BB before, and he sells a good product. I can't tell you how well they preformed this year, because a bear got them last spring......and I certainly don't expect BB's queens to fight off a bear. Although that might be one of those traits that need to be improved.

Anyway, I also have Russian queens. I have not found them to be any hotter than anything else I have. I have 5 hives of Italians crossed with bumblebees that I would like to sell off though...........


----------



## stingmaster (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, myself, I tried 5 nucs this year of Russians. In May, they had a good, full brood box and about 1/2 super of honey. Yesterday, I went out to check them. I opened the hives- not a drop of honey left- they have consumed the whole thing very fast. No, there has not been any robbing that I can tell. I began feeding today.
My plan was to do some splits....nix that idea. Not a single capped brood cell to be found. Well, I take that back- a small amt. in 1 hive. It does prove the statement that the Queens shut down durring non-flow periods. I do like the idea that the brood interuption quells the mites for a bit.
So, production-wise, they were a wash out. None of the hives has been very interested in drawing out much comb either. 

As for them being more nasty than Italians, huhmmm.....not that I can much tell. Tonight I was working them at near sunset, empty stores, hot as heck and my smoker ran outta' smoke. They were pretty calm and easy going; no different than my Italians. The only thing I have noticed is that they MIGHT be a bit more inclined to go on the offense when I mow near the hives. 

One kinda' silly thing I might mention- when I first got them, I was unthrilled by there appearance. Seemed dull looking to me as compared to my bright gold Italians. Now, after a summer with them, I enjoy their "look"- different but not really less pretty.

So, for me.....SO FAR.......not so great but then, next year will no doubt be a different ball game, right? I suspect it is an issue of me getting to know them better.


----------



## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

I got a box of Russians a year ago in July from a friend. They were about 8 frames strong in a 10 frame shallow. I had just hoped to get them to build enough to get through winter. I added a 10 frame deep which they filled plus a medium super that they filled and capped going into the winter and it was still full coming out of the winter. This year I'll have surplus to take off. I also got a shallow 10 framer with queen which I used to requeen a weak Italian hive. I love the Italians but the Russians seem pretty nice also and I'm willing to give them a shot. So far the ones I have, have been very gentle. Haven't gotten any stings and they seem less interested in my opening the hive than the Italians, with no signs of aggression at all. hope it stays that way


----------



## Carson (Jul 6, 2007)

Well thats your first problem you got them from Jester Bees Im not all that far from them and from what Ive hear thay have problems with ccd and thay just have not been doing to good. But the guy I help breads his own Russian queens and there great. thay never get mad or any thing. and then we have Italians to we like them for there wax. Thay do better makeing wax then the Russians. But no matter what you have ever breed has there good sides and there bad sides. Its just like breeing race horses might have one that is good at the end of the race but sucks at the start or what ever.


----------



## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

One thing I've tried to do is find some folks locally and have given them some queens that I've bred to evaluate for me. You get mixed responses although most have been good. 

One thing you have to evaluate is how the colony was managed or queens handled by those giving the evaluation.

I ask all those who buy queens from me and those to whom I've given queens for evaluation to give me feedback on those that I produce.

I had one guy (who bought 5 queens from me) tell me my queens were so so.... Not bad but not that great either. I couldn't understand why his opinion was so different from others who had gotten queens from the same batch of cells.

After digging deeper I find out that he had left the queens sitting on his kitchen counter for 10 days prior to installing them AND looses hives on a regular basis. This year he came back for 5 more queens. Apparently the queens weren't so bad after all. 

My point is it can be tough separating the good beekeepers evaluation from the less than ideal evaluation when so many individual circumstances will apply. You definately need a broad spectrum of evaluations in order to get a true picture sometimes.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

naturebee said:


> I don't care for Russians.
> They tend to get hot and do not respond to smoke.
> Very swarmy also
> 
> ...


I can stand directly in front of my colonies without the Russian bees taking any interest in me. I could not do that when I was running Italian Starline colonies!

The Russian breeding stock from Baton Rouge is very gentle. The USDA Bee Breeding lab in Baton Rouge stoped importing bees from Russia in 2004. The researchers are concentrating on the Russian lines that are showing the most promise. Every year the breeding stock gets better! Find out first hand about the current status of the Russian bee program by attending the field day in Baton Rouge.

http://www.labeekeepers.org/11thfielday.html

http://www.beebehavior.com/russian_bees_sale.php


----------



## BarreBee (Jul 29, 2005)

*Russian Bees*

I like the Russians. I haven't had any problems with them and they don't seen to be mean. In fact my Russian hive produced 64llbs of honey this year already My Italian hive is a bit slower, no honey taken from that hive this year. They just produced a new queen after being without one for a short time.


----------



## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

I buy many of my queens and bees from Bjornbee. They are very hardy, and frugal. Bjornbee was the closest local breeder. He has a defined breeding program, selecting only the most desirable traits. IMO the most important trait that he selects for is survivabilty without the use of chemicals. The use of no chemicals was a major selling point for me. I have slowly grown my small operation to 55 hives, raising queens from mostly Bjornbees stock. The hygenic side of these bees can be seen everyday when looking at capped brood. You will notice uncapped pupae where the bees have found something wrong. I base my small and new breeding program off breeders like Bjornbee and others who do not treat with chemicals.


----------



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

My observation is that the Russians are unlikely to sting, and should be worked with small amounts of smoke. They do exhibit several "odd" but harmless behaviors such as:
1) hair pulling
2) head butting
3) queen CUP building (not swarm cells)

I like their honey production and mite tolerance but would not recommend them for people doing pollination work or trying to draw large amounts of comb (primarily because of their small winter clusters). I consider them gentle, slow to rob, thrifty, winter hardy, and disease resistant but have some clear disadvantages:

1) tendancy to propolize
2) small winter clusters (I do NOT like this trait)
3) slow to draw comb
4) succession is frequent, successor queens have unpredictable traits


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*A Beginner's 2 cents*

I started this year with 2 Russian hives. I do not have enough experience to compare races, but I can say what I've seen.

I had some sort of disease issue early on that slowed at least one and I think both hives. I think the hives stopped brood rearing when they had a disease issue, so that may have really been a blessing in disguise. Also, we had a bunch of rain, and many beekeepers around here had slow buildup. The end result is that my hives did not build up very well and have been slower to draw comb than I would like. To that extent, I'm not really very happy. 

These bees have been very, very gentle, which is important to me because I keep them in a neighborhood. Based on these bees, I do not agree that Russians are hot. I've still not been stung once, only had a few stings in my gloves. Sometimes I don't wear gloves. Usually I use no smoke. I have opened the hives and done a small amount of poking around wearing shorts and sandals (but with a veil). 

Really, I want to reserve judgment until next spring, when I'll know wether they lived through the winter and how the build up once they have some comb to get started. 

I have talked to several local beekeepers who also have tried out Russians. They generally like them and think they are productive. A couple of people say they have been disappointed. One beekeeper in my bee club says that her Russian bees are clearly out growing/producing the Italians. 

I talked with Ed Levi, a bee inspector from Arkansas, and he keeps Russian bees and is happy with them. He does think that they cope with mites better than Italians. (He just uses drone comb removal and SBBs, no chemicals or small cell.)

Overall, the jury is still out on my bees, but my Russians are really gentle, and overall people I know seem to like their Russians.


----------



## Carson (Jul 6, 2007)

ndvan said:


> I talked with Ed Levi, a bee inspector from Arkansas, and he keeps Russian bees and is happy with them. He does think that they cope with mites better than Italians. (He just uses drone comb removal and SBBs, no chemicals or small cell.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Aspera said:


> My observation is that the Russians are unlikely to sting, and should be worked with small amounts of smoke. They do exhibit several "odd" but harmless behaviors such as:
> 1) hair pulling
> 2) head butting
> 3) queen CUP building (not swarm cells)
> ...


5) Swarming allot?


----------



## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

"5) Swarming allot?"

All bees will swarm if you let them. I have over 50 colonies of Russian, Russian/Hybrid. Only one swarmed this year. You ask how I know? All my queens are marked.


----------



## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Yuleluder said:


> "5)
> 
> All bees will swarm if you let them. I have over 50 colonies of Russian, Russian/Hybrid. Only one swarmed this year. You ask how I know? All my queens are marked.



I suppose with a strict regiment of swarm control throughout the season an experienced beekeeper is capable of preventing any colony from swarming. The reports from some beeks in nearby counties that have tried Russians stated (be-it in much more colorful language) ‘Russians swarmed 5 times a season’. 

A more effective means is to purchase breeds that have low swarming tendency that is easily suppressed with proper management. Italians for example tend to throw one large swarm in early season, and if swarm prevention procedures are implemented, it is usually enough to surprises the desire to swarm for the duration season. Where as IMO, Russians will often keep you busy at the at the swarm prevention and swarm patrol well into July. 

Most accounts of the Russian bees do make note of this swarming tendency:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_honey_bee
“They are more apt to building queen cells throughout the brood season and may have a higher tendency to swarm.”

But what I am particularly concerned about is the salesmanship undertaken by researchers to promote the Russian stock at the expense of full disclosure. Selling a bill of goods if you will, and intentionally not mentioning the good with the bad characteristics like swarming behavior, in affect throwing management traits out with the bath water to sell a bee. 

For example I was quite surprised that someone of Tarpy’s caliber would not mention this propensity to swarm in Russians, IMO and obvious omission to better sell his point that Russians are comparable to Italians, which they are not. 

http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/PDF files/2.16.pdf



Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA 
‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' 
FeralBeeProject.com


----------



## RBar (Jun 22, 2005)

RUssian bees...how exactly do they differ from Italians? I ordered two packages from Kelly's last year, but I cannot tell the difference between those and my former Italian.
At times they seem a bit more testy, but other times, amazingly tame, and smoke calms them very well...gloveless, but I still wear head protection when working them.
Excellent year for them, honey wise, I am almost regressed to small cell size now.
DOES ANYBODY have a good picture of a pure Russian so I can compare with my stock? 
Mine do not have five color bands, and orange/yellow color is visible, at least toward the body. I have a pic of mine if anyone can help. [email protected]


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*Ed Levi's bees*

Carson, you are really lucky to have him as a mentor. Based on his work and travels and smarts, he knows a bunch about bees. He was also an interesting, decent person. I met him and talked to him briefly at the Big Bee Buzz over in Tulsa last fall. 

Does he sell Russain queens or just make them for personal consumption? Where did he get his breeding stock, if he would not mind you saying?

Ndvan


----------



## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Carson said:


> I talked with Ed Levi, a bee inspector from Arkansas, and he keeps Russian bees and is happy with them. He does think that they cope with mites better than Italians. (He just uses drone comb removal and SBBs, no chemicals or small cell.)



Drone comb removal would basically be a type of treatment (killing mites for the bees).
Russians as well as Italians would likley do well with drone removal.

Best Wishes,
Joe


----------



## beehoppers (Jun 16, 2005)

We have two Russian hives plus three hives that we have brought along from nukes and we are pleased. From the two we extracted ten gallons during a tough season. We get ours from Ray Revis near Marion, NC. Its nice to be able to pick them up instead of the queens going through the mail. I would probably base the choice of nationality on who is closest anyway....


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

RBar,
Glenns site has some nice photos.

http://members.aol.com/queenb95/


----------



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I think the the swarming issue is somewhat debatable and definitely dependant on management. They will swarm if forced to draw large quantities of comb or if maintained in very large colonies. The only bees I have used that are much less inclined to swarm were Texas Buckfasts, but I'm told that Caucasians rarely swarm even if badly mis-managed. The wikipedia site has a number of very questionable statements


----------



## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

I get my Russians from Jester Bees out of West Ridge and have not had a problem. He has had problems with CCD this year but the three nuc's I got from him, though weak in the beginning, are busting at the seams. He has also given me answers to questions me or my wife or kids had. They were even invited to watch queen grafting, had a blast. I had the good fortune of meeting Ed Levi this past February during a beekeeping workshop he conducted in Conway. Man has a lot of great info and during class kept objective in the material presentation letting us make our own minds up about what type of beekeeping regimine we are going to follow.

I went into the russians with pro's and con's for swarming, propolise, low wax production (except IME is high in spring) in summer and fall, ect... Wanted to see for myself and get experience with another breed. Would not trade them for anything. Nor any of the others I have either.

I do not use chemicals but do use SBB, sugar shakes and natural cell (small cell starter strips) All eight hives are still going strong. Will know more after my fifth year, this is my third summer with bees.


----------

