# telescoping vs migratory



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Telescoping covers are expensive and heavy and make the use of an inner cover or some sort of plastic to keep the bees from gluing the top cover down hard. Migratory covers are cheap to make and less time consuming to deal with. People use telescoping covers because they always have.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

I use telescoping covers because I keep feeder inner covers on all year. These inners help to moderate our extreme heat in summer.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Migratory cover is basically an inner cover without a access hole and rim. Although i believe some folks do add holes to migratory covers for feeding. The migratory cover is painted to be water and weather resistant, usually has extension in front and back with a hand hold. 

A Telescopling cover is typically used in conjuction with an inner cover. Essentially a cover over a cover. Some hives may seal the inner cover to the telescoping cover.

Im not sure if there is a clear benefit when using telescoping covers perhaps ventilation and insulation. Telescoping covers are nice to set boxes onto when inspection a hive. You can cover up boxes with the inner and outer cover to discourage robbing during summer. The disadvantage is cost and extra equipment.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

The Western covers supplied with several boards lapped don't hold up well to the weather. Make you own with exterior plywood. The metal covered TC are a lifetime purchase if painted well. I am still using inner covers I made in the late '70s, but some have rotted or warped.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Both telescoping covers and migratory covers function to keep the weather out of the interior of the hive. The difference is that since a telescoping cover nestles down over the outside of the the top box, if the bees propolize the tele cover to the top box, it can be _very _difficult to remove the telescoping cover. If a tele cover is used, then an inner cover* is _needed _to discourage the bees from propolizing the tele cover to the top box.


* there are _alternative _inner covers used sometimes, such as the flexible plastic mentioned above by _Vance G_.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Migratory covers also allow the hives to be stacked right against each other for transporting, hence migratory.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Vance G said:


> Telescoping covers are expensive and heavy.....People use telescoping covers because they always have.


Ha, ha. Vance nails it. Lids need do little more than to simply keep the weather out. I consider any lid being called migratory as one designed to accommodate stacking of hives for efficient loading and ventilation. To me its nothing more than a lid with a flat top and end cleats (unless you have cleats nailed on the ends of the boxes). Top cleats running across the lid (as opposed to lengthwise) work fine as long as the bottoms sitting on them "nest" properly.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

I do things a bit differently. I like screened inner covers with a rim on one side. They aid in ventilation, make feeding easy, and allow me to eyeball the activity in the hive without disturbing it. The telescoping covers are the only kind that work with my screened inner covers, and that is the only reason I use them. Also, I am a stationary beekeeper, so the main reasons to use the migratory covers really don't apply to my situation.

HTH


Rusty


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## Swampsquash (Oct 25, 2014)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> I do things a bit differently. I like screened inner covers with a rim on one side. They aid in ventilation, make feeding easy, and allow me to eyeball the activity in the hive without disturbing it.


Do you have a pic of your ventilation inner cover? I need to develop a ventilation cover of my own. I like the telescoping covers because they keep most of the rain out of the hive.


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## Emict326 (Oct 13, 2014)

Thanks for the info most people around me use t-covers due to the mass wind we have here and I have never seen a m-cover here. thanks for the information


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Look at Honey run apriray web site


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Migratory covers warp, let water in through the seams. But they are cheep, easy to make, & allow the hives to be stacked on a truck toughing each other.
I use telescoping bit only have 30 or so.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Swampsquash said:


> Do you have a pic of your ventilation inner cover? I need to develop a ventilation cover of my own. I like the telescoping covers because they keep most of the rain out of the hive.



I don't have any pictures, but I remember seeing the same thing on Lauri's facebook page. Heck, that may even have been where I got the idea!



Rusty


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## MichiganMike (Mar 25, 2014)

Swamp, I made venilated inner covers by putting window screening on an Imirie shim, works for me.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Emict326 said:


> most people around me use t-covers due to the mass wind we have here and I have never seen a m-cover here.


My experience has been just the opposite. 

Tele covers don't get propolised down (at least, that's the goal). So you need to put a brick or a rock on them. Mig covers do get glued down, and so don't need a brick or a rock. 

Functionally speaking, the only difference I've seen between the two is price. I can build a Mig cover for under $5. I can build (a really crappy) Tele cover for around $15 (including the inner) or buy a set that's nicely made for $23. When you take the extra $10-18 over the 50 hives I ran at one point this year, the $500-900 savings becomes a big deal. 

I've made Mig tops that are 6 years old and look brand new. I've also purchased Tele tops that are 8 years old and have turned to basically sawdust. My Mig tops are usually made of either plywood or pine boards. A few coats of paint and they are sealed in good. I've had the metal on the Tele tops rust, and I've had water get in under the metal and cause it to rot away. Usually the quality of the wood underneath the metal isn't great (OSB usually) and there is no way to fully protect it, other than the metal.

I have some Tele covers floating around from years ago, buying out other hives from people and what not. But I don't replace them when they go out. I just keep using Mig covers. Haven't been disappointed yet.


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## Swampsquash (Oct 25, 2014)

MichiganMike said:


> Swamp, I made venilated inner covers by putting window screening on an Imirie shim, works for me.


Oh yeah that's a good idea. ...the plastic type stuff or a metal?


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## MichiganMike (Mar 25, 2014)

Swampsquash said:


> Oh yeah that's a good idea. ...the plastic type stuff or a metal?


Aluminum. I staple it on.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I have 1 migratory cover on a nuc box that I bought. I hate it. I make my own telescoping covers. They are easy to keep straight and easy to pull off and check the top of the hive through the screened inner cover. 

On nice days I can check the sugar brick w/o disturbing the bees.


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## Swampsquash (Oct 25, 2014)

I will go get some aluminum screening today


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## MichiganMike (Mar 25, 2014)

I made migratory covers for my hives and installed tapered shims along the longest sides so the top is sloped and provides an upper entrance for the bees. I only have five colonies so cost is not an issue. For winter I use them as inner covers and placed two inches of insulation on top of them and then covered the insulation with my existing telo covers and bricks. The size of the upper entrances can be reduced to any size you prefer.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Do those that use the migratory tops, use any plastic sheathing as an "inner cover?"


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

snl said:


> Do those that use the migratory tops, use any plastic sheathing as an "inner cover?"


Very few that I'm aware of. Until I read this thread, I didn't realize migratory lids have all these problems.......and it's all we have ever used.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

snl said:


> Do those that use the migratory tops, use any plastic sheathing as an "inner cover?"


I don't. Don't know anyone that does either.

I've never had problems with migratory tops. I don't really know anyone who does either. If made of poor construction or materials and not properly painted, they will warp. Same is true of bottom boards and boxes though.


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## Emict326 (Oct 13, 2014)

jim lyon said:


> Until I read this thread, I didn't realize migratory lids have all these problems.


The main reason I asked the question, to get the pros and cons from people that use them.


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## gunter62 (Feb 13, 2011)

I've been using migratory covers for a couple years and this year started using a feed bag inner cover. The reason I started doing this is the bees are using a lot of propolis on top of the frames to corral the small hive beatles. This stuck the lids down making removal difficult. So far I like my setup, but time will tell.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Hard when you find out how ignorant you have been isn't it? I am shamed to realize how backward I have been using cheap flimsy migratory covers. I guess any success was just an illusion. I now fear a visit from the Humane society.


jim lyon said:


> Very few that I'm aware of. Until I read this thread, I didn't realize migratory lids have all these problems.......and it's all we have ever used.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I've only ever used migratory tops. A commercial guy tried to give me 100 telescoping tops/inner covers and I didn't take him up on it. It's much easier to remove tops or stack hives with migratory tops. Its also nice to set the top upside down so you can start stacking brood boxes on them when doing inspections.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

rwurster said:


> I've only ever used migratory tops. A commercial guy tried to give me 100 telescoping tops/inner covers and I didn't take him up on it. It's much easier to remove tops or stack hives with migratory tops. Its also nice to set the top upside down so you can start stacking brood boxes on them when doing inspections.


Actually telescoping covers work better for this. You flip the tele upside down and the first box you pull off, set it at 45 degrees rotation from the top. That way you don't crush bees and it gives you something to step on and hold the top down when you lift that box back off.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

jbeshearse said:


> Actually telescoping covers work better for this.


The only significant downside to migratory tops from my standpoint. Not enough of a downside for me to use them systematically though.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

jbeshearse said:


> Actually telescoping covers work better for this. You flip the tele upside down and the first box you pull off, set it at 45 degrees rotation from the top. That way you don't crush bees and it gives you something to step on and hold the top down when you lift that box back off.


I use migratory lids, but I do keep a couple of old telescoping covers (and old boxes) around in the yard just for that purpose.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

The migratory lids work well for me and I use them in combination with migratory bottom boards. The whole package ratchet straps together. There are notches and auger holes in the front of the lid for a top entrance that can be closed with a yellow cap plug or screening. They seem to seal real well. This winter I slid groups of 4 hives together and wrapped them with felt paper. Hopefully they can share some warmth.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I've started adding a rim to the bottom of my migratory lids for patties.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Vance wrote:

People use telescoping covers because they always have. 

I represent that remark. Most of the ones we are taking out of service are from the 1930's. The galvanized sheet gets reused on a replacement wood roof. 

One advantage is that as it gets a little warm, you can slide a telescoping roof back just a little, flush with the super, and get ventilation without any fear of water entry.

Crazy Roland


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I have thought of that very thing, as right now I have a stack of 2 1/2" rims for patties/ baggies and sugar feeding. Always best to do most things with as little equipment as possible. If I added the rims to my lids then I would have to make them into telescoping covers so they don't blow off in our hurricane Chinooks. It is always something! I wonder about my covers and if something else would be better but I can't seem to change them much. Roland, If you are using Telescoping covers it must work for you and that tickles me pink. Merry Christmas to all you people with so few serious problems that you can sit around here and BS about covers! Life Is GOOD!!! God is great.



Ian said:


> I've started adding a rim to the bottom of my migratory lids for patties.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I just have a 7/16" rim which helps squeeze that patty in. obvious problems with have the rim there but I also have one of those bubble wrap inner cover mats to help keep the stray burr comb from getting too wild
With more focus on supplemental feeding I put up with the inconvenience


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In my experience the telescopic covers blow off much more frequently. They stick out, which catches the wind, and they are not glued down (which is a good think since you can't get to the seam to pry them up) because of the inner cover. They are also more expensive, and they prevent me being able to push my hives together for winter.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I use migratory covers and the Honey Run style ventilated inner covers. 

The inner cover allows plenty of room for pollen sub or fondant. I have incorporated an upper entrance in them. 

I have a couple of telescoping covers. I only use them when I run out of migratory covers. I need to make up some more migratory covers. I have a couple from my first batch that need placed. I will use something more than 15/32" plywood this time.

Tom


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Swampsquash said:


> Do you have a pic of your ventilation inner cover? I need to develop a ventilation cover of my own. I like the telescoping covers because they keep most of the rain out of the hive.


My ventilation consists of a nearby twig snapped off and stuck under one corner of my plywood top. Works great.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> In my experience the telescopic covers blow off much more frequently.


If you use 10 cm/4 inches height for the telescoping cover, the cover won't blow off. It withstands very strong storms without any additional weights on top or strapping. (Prices for metal telescoping covers are really low over here in Europe.)

A commercial beekeeper in Germany uses one telescoping cover per palette. Four hives on a palette shares one cover. See:
http://westerhoff-imkereibetriebe.de/s/cc_images/cache_2434887731.jpg
http://westerhoff-imkereibetriebe.de/s/cc_images/cache_2434887714.jpg
http://westerhoff-imkereibetriebe.de/s/cc_images/cache_2434887713.jpeg

This way he uses all the advantages of a telescoping cover but without the disadvantages when transporting the hives.

Bernhard


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> In my experience the telescopic covers blow off much more frequently.


Wow. Mine have stayed on through hurricanes. Of course I use a weight on top but who doesn't


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

gone2seed said:


> Of course I use a weight on top but who doesn't


People that use Migratory covers.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> People that use Migratory covers.


Ha, ha! You got that right though if it's cold and windy we are occasionally forced to put some weight on the lid or as a last resort a nail on the windward side. On a warm day, though, they stick down pretty quickly. Most of our yards have a rarely used pile of rocks and bricks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Wow. Mine have stayed on through hurricanes. Of course I use a weight on top but who doesn't

With telescopic covers I needed concrete blocks. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/EightTenEightHives.jpg

With the migratory one brick will do.
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Stand2.jpg
http://bushfarms.com/images/Hives3.jpg

But that shouldn't be that surprising. A hurricane has wind speeds up to a (maximum ever observed) 190 mph while we have tornadoes often and they have wind speeds up to 300 mph. I often hear a weather report on a hurricane and they will be talking about 60 mph winds. I expect that anytime we have a storm blow in... and about once every two years or so one will blow through that snaps off full grown trees at the trunk in my yard...

We have an average of 57 tornadoes a year in Nebraska. In the entire Atlantic on average, 5.9 hurricanes occur.


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

There is also a bee space difference between the migratory and telescoping tops. With the tele tops the inner covers have about an 1/8th inch space below next to the frames and full bee space above. That and the rim that covers the cracks that let in light are what makes for less propolizing. The migratory covers have less space above the frames so need to have about a 3/4 inch rabbet on the frame rest. Used to be a selling point for matching your equipment when I started in the sixties. Just something to keep in mind if you are seeing lots of burr comb (excess bee space) or if you are building your own boxes. You'll see the deeper rabbet on the five frame nuc plans here on beesource.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Michael Bush;But that shouldn't be that surprising. A hurricane has wind speeds up to a (maximum ever observed) 190 mph while we have tornadoes often and they have wind speeds up to 300 mph. I often hear a weather report on a hurricane and they will be talking about 60 mph winds. I expect that anytime we have a storm blow in... and about once every two years or so one will blow through that snaps off full grown trees at the trunk in my yard...
We have an average of 57 tornadoes a year in Nebraska. In the entire Atlantic on average said:


> How many of those tornados hit your bee yards? A hurricane gets everyone in a wide path.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

You folks with issues of the top covers blowing off in the wind should consider a _real innovation _ - the patented 5 gallon _Bucket-O-Water_[SUP]®[/SUP]™ Hurricane Hive Retention System!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How many of those tornados hit your bee yards? 

Hard to say exactly. But as I said it gets windy enough to snap off full sized trees every couple of years. Blew all the hives over one year. Here's some pictures of one that went over us and touched down in the field across the road. We watched it until it was almost overhead and then went to the basement:

http://extremeinstability.com/04-6-13.htm

And video of the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PRotefN50Q

This was taken from a location exactly 2 miles from my house looking back towards my house.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Aftermath of another storm:
http://bushfarms.com/images/DownedTrees1.jpg
http://bushfarms.com/images/DownedTrees2.jpg

This happens every couple of years...

It's possible it's just shear winds but they often get well over 100 mph and occur when tornadoes are in the vicinity.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

We do not get tornado's or wet hurricanes here but I have seen a downburst flatten all the trees on whole sides of mountains. Last winter compression heating brought the temperatures up and all of the roofs down on a farmstead that was at some kid of focal point. A weather station recorded 163 mph before it broke. Semi's park when these plows come and empty trains have literally blown off the track in gaps in the mountains. There are bricks and rocks on every one of my nailed down migratory covers. For the most point these routinely 90 mph winds do little damage past stripping the roofs off trailers and any roof not well shingles with time to weather in. There is no water weight and if the dumpsters blowing along don't hit your car, we have little damage.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

In time a strong hive will completely cover the screen in propolis. Bees need just a small amount of ventilation to properly regulate the temperature and humidity. I'de rather have leave them with a bit too little than too much. I can always add more when I see signs of problems ie chewing on entrancer reducer during the mainflow and moisture in the top of the hive. 

Perhaps down south you can get by with a screen. I wouldn't ever run one.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Since I switched to migratory lids I have not used bricks.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Aftermath of another storm:
> http://bushfarms.com/images/DownedTrees1.jpg
> http://bushfarms.com/images/DownedTrees2.jpg
> 
> ...


Well,I looked at your links.Interesting stuff but no blown off telescoping covers.All of this is moot since with a tornado it wouldn't matter what kind of covers you had.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Ian said:


> Since I switched to migratory lids I have not used bricks.


Did I read that you are using a "plastic bubble wrap" inner cover?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Yes, on every hive. It's that insulation bubble foil material


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Food grade of course...


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## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

Ian said:


> Yes, on every hive. It's that insulation bubble foil material


I took off every telescoping metal top, put bubble foil material under it, reinstalled the metal. Summer cool, winter warm. For winter put bubble foil against the inside top of the cover, than 3/4 inch of the dense foam insulation.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

missybee said:


> I took off every telescoping metal top, put bubble foil material under it, reinstalled the metal. Summer cool, winter warm. For winter put bubble foil against the inside top of the cover, than 3/4 inch of the dense foam insulation.


Does that not cause condensation?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Ian said:


> Yes, on every hive. It's that insulation bubble foil material


Thanks Ian, does it cover the entire top or is it about and an inch shy all the way around? Did you do this for insulation or to keep the bees from building comb or propolising the cover down?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I leased a load of 500+ hives a few years back from a guy that used a plastic onion sack type of liner under the lid. I didn't really see the point, kind of seemed like a nuisance to me and ants would often get between the lid and the liner, also condensation was a problem once it got cooler.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Food grade of course...


Nope, but my hive itself is not food grade either...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

snl said:


> Thanks Ian, does it cover the entire top or is it about and an inch shy all the way around? Did you do this for insulation or to keep the bees from building comb or propolising the cover down?


Im trying to give the hives a little but of warmth retention after I set them out in spring. The covers are the same dimensions as the box. The bees nicely seal it up eliminating all drafts.

Your right, the bubble wrap covers also fill the space in the rim decreasing that wandering comb within my rim space

They make opening hives much nicer than cracking hive tops


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Swampsquash said:


> Do you have a pic of your ventilation inner cover? I need to develop a ventilation cover of my own. I like the telescoping covers because they keep most of the rain out of the hive.



Here is an image of one of Lauri's early screened inner covers. I am sure there are a few more here on beesource if you search for them My own rims are only about an inch high.

HTH

Rusty


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## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

dsegrest said:


> Does that not cause condensation?


No, it is the same foil wrapped bubble material we used under our metal roof shop to stop condensation. Works great.
The air bubbles make a nice dead air space, keeps the warm hive air from hitting the cooled off hive top.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>but no blown off telescoping covers.

I've had a lot of blown off telescopic covers over the years. When those happened I didn't have telescopic covers and none of them blew off, but I wouldn't have been surprised if it blew some hives over. I moved them closer to the ground since the last time that happened.

>All of this is moot since with a tornado it wouldn't matter what kind of covers you had.

Those storms that snapped off those trees snapped them off 30 feet from the hives and none of the hives blew over and none of the (migratory) lids blew off. Several of my windows blew out though...

Generally, I agree. When I was building houses in Oklahoma we would try to make them as tornado proof as we could be we guessed in a direct hit it probably would not matter...


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> When I was building houses in Oklahoma


I thought you worked in I.T.?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I use the TTCs. We had winds so high that they blew the vents off of the greenhouse. I had forgotten to put the bricks on the covers of two hives. No problem.


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