# New Huge OH!



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Holy crud. Cool looking but there's going to be sooo much bur comb you'll never get to inspect it. Once the hive get's going and fills even 1/2 of the space the entrance/exit tube it way too small. It'll be way too heavy to move it once it's full. As for the bottom. Once winter hits the dead will drop to the bottom, in mass especially as winter progresses. This will be a haven for SHB's and the resulting stinking mass. Being inside in an OB hive, they don't take a break during winter. It's very difficult to find a winter day to get them outside to clean up the mess. When they swarm, and they will how are you going to make sure they requeen properly? You'll not be able to see if there's a new queen until it's way to late to do anything about it. How are you going to introduce a new queen if something happens to the old one. There are so many basic things that an OB hive makes downright difficult. Of all my years of experience with an OB hive there are a ton of hard learned lessons taught.


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

D Coates, thank you for your comment. I am at peace with the fact that the bess will draw bur comb making the hive impossible to inspect. Even if I could keep but comb from the glass I am not sure what I could actually inspect given that the comb will be fixed to the top and thus immovable. 

I hadn't really considered the tube being too small for when the population is much much larger. I have a lather diameter tube. Maybe I can modify the top so that I can start with a small tube then switch to a larger one. The other tube i have is 4"diameter. That would be plenty large right?

I am disappointed with the inibility to clean the bottom. I think I'll rework it so that I can fit a tool up into it to scrape droppings and dead bess into one of the bottom vent holes to clean. The wire mesh on the vents would be easy to remove and reapply. It would be either that or make a false bottom...

As for the requeening issue.... Your absolutely right. I won't be able to tell. I could requeen right as I see the hive divide by putting a queen cage in between two frames at the top assuming I would be able to remove them still. If that wouldn't work I could lower a queen cage into one of the feeder holes that do not have honey.


Thank you for your help and experience! So if I devised a way to be able to clean the base and a way to make the entrance/exit tube larger how do you think it would fair?

The hive i based it off of must have encountered the same inhibility to inspect due to bur and weight.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Dillonmartin1 said:


> I devised a way to be able to clean the base and a way to make the entrance/exit tube larger how do you think it would fair?


The enlarging of the entrance/exit tube is a must. How it fairs depends on your ability to quickly understand what's going on with the respective hive. Without being able to inspect this will be challenging to say the least. Managing this hive will be like piloting a tanker ship. On even keel and calm seas no problem. However, when rough waters or tight quarters are encountered it's going to be very difficult to change the direction especially if a reef is ahead. Like piloting a ship managing a OB hive well is also dependent on your level of beekeeping experience. I wish you the best of luck.


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## brushwoodnursery (Feb 10, 2012)

Dude! Cudos for the imaginative design! Sure, there are some things that are entirely impractical about it but it's still fantastic. Have fun!


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

brushwoodnursery said:


> Dude! Cudos for the imaginative design! Sure, there are some things that are entirely impractical about it but it's still fantastic. Have fun!


Thank you! I'm extreme excited to see it in action.


D Costs, I reworked the base last night to have a sliding screen door that will allow me to clean the base. I'll be working on the entrance later today. I have a feeling that I can simply use one of the feeder ports as an entrance.

I'll post pics when it is up and running.
Thank you


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

Excellent craftmanship... doomed idea :-(

But have fun with it all!

Cheers.

Bill


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

eltalia said:


> Excellent craftmanship... doomed idea :-(
> 
> But have fun with it all!
> 
> ...


[edit]

The image I based this design off of proves to me that it is possible. Does it have as high of a success rate as a standard OH? Probsbly not? How do you determine success? If the population exceeds the space and divides is that a failure? Are you actually suggesting I give up before I begin?

I haven't seen any like this on bee source. Does innovation drive growth? Does failure lead to knowledge? Should I accept failure and miss out on this golden opportunity to learn? 

[edit]

Cheers


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

The beeisms were a poor attempt at humor. I'm sorry that blinded you from the core of what I was trying to express.

Yes I am passionate about this wonderful realm. I find it ever deepening, ever challenging and ever gratifying. 

I am also not someone who follows the norm. I thrive in the realm of possibilities. I thrive in pushing myself to achieve what both myself and others think is not possible.

I believe it was quite evident that i am committing to populating and maintaining this hive. I undoubtedly have far less experience than yourself and those here. So by posting this topic I am pursuing the advice/critique that will be most beneficial to the bees and myself. If your your only purpose is to predict demise I simply ask that you contribute in a more constructive manner. 

D Coats recomended two things that will help the bees and I have made changes for both. Will you offer helpful advice?


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

I think what eltalia is trying to say is that the original picture you saw was a very forced piece of artwork. What most likely will result from your design is that the bees will make all kind of crazy comb on the top and eventually attach it to the glass since proper beespace is not being observed. Which will make it mostly unviewable, and definitely unworkable and will glue the top to the glass. So most likely it will be the equivalent of a hollow log for all intents and purposes after the bees fill it up and unless their genetics are solid stock, they'll succumb to mites without treatment.

That being said, it's amazing craftsmanship. I would maybe start with nuc frames, since a package of bees would have a pretty high rate of absconding from something like that(only my guess).


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

Branman said:


> What most likely will result from your design is that the bees will make all kind of crazy comb on the top and eventually attach it to the glass since proper beespace is not being observed.
> 
> That being said, it's amazing craftsmanship. I would maybe start with nuc frames, since a package of bees would have a pretty high rate of absconding from something like that(only my guess).



Thanks you for your comment. I expect the bees to be drawing bur comb left and right and will seal the lid to the walls. Even if they didn't the idea of doing an inspection with immovable comb would be fruitless. This hive was made with the expectation that this will happen and the acceptance that I will not be able to regularly inspect it. 

I do believe I will be able to do vapor oxalic acid treatment via the bottom for mite control. 

I think you are right in predicting a high rate of absconding via package installation. This is why I modified the top to fit 4 deep frames ( almost a nuc,) to start it off. I may also use a queen excluder on the entrance for a day or two to help prevent them absconding.


I guess I am just frustrated that any exception to the standard hive maintenance plan is deemed as unfit. I wholeheartedly believe in doing everything I can to help the bees. I keep a rigorous inspection schedule, mite control plan and do everything I can to ensure the prosperity of my 12 hives. Having done a few extractions I am amazed at how adaptive and resilient feral colonies are and how they thrive in what I would assume would be a sup-par environment. These hive flourish without inspections, mite treatment and variable space. This in part leads me to believe this hive will be successful. That being said I am aware that any observation hive is not natural. The lack of daily temperature fluctuations, the progressive seasonal changes and interruption of light changes everything. I hope this will be as fruitful of a learning experience as possible for me and I hope that it will in turn help me better care for my other hives. I also know that I can use this hive to get others to become interested in beekeeping. 

Lastly should this be an utter failure and I kill a colony of bees I will share my remorse and do what I can to make this a public example so that others can learn from my mistakes. I know I am not the only person who saw the original hive pic and wanted to build one.


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## brushwoodnursery (Feb 10, 2012)

DM1, please post pics when this is occupied! I'm looking forward to it.


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

brushwoodnursery said:


> DM1, please post pics when this is occupied! I'm looking forward to it.


























Here are some pics... The install went very smoothly give how small the population was. It took them a day to find the entrance because light could enter via the vents on the top so they congregated there and not though the exit. After covering up avery light source they found the exit and seem to be doing just fine now.


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## brushwoodnursery (Feb 10, 2012)

Thanks! Please update as they build it out. I'm very curious to see how they handle the sides. I have an OH with extra space just outside the frames and they ignore it.


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

I will! 

So far I have been able to see the queen lay and emerging bees take their first steps. Its pretty amazing watching them seconds after being born as they get used to their body. Two of the frames that went into the hive were 80% capped brood and about half have emerged so with the onset of many young bees I would expect them to begin drawing comb soon. 

I'lll update later. Thanks


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## captain776 (May 8, 2017)

Just curious, what will the Bee space bee from the center of frames to the glass?


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

captain776 said:


> Just curious, what will the Bee space bee from the center of frames to the glass?


It is open space. I would estimate 4-6 inches. They also have 3-5 inches from the edges of the frames to the glass.

They will draw their comb how they please and will make their own beespace between combs. This is not something I can or want to control.


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## brushwoodnursery (Feb 10, 2012)

Hey, DM1, I do a lecture on OHs. May I use some of your pics and describe your setup?


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

brushwoodnursery said:


> Hey, DM1, I do a lecture on OHs. May I use some of your pics and describe your setup?


Yes you may. Than you for asking.

I would like to note two of the design flaws I have encountered thus far.

1) The space I cut out to allow the frames to slide in was very tight. This was problematic when installing the hive because one of the frames I installed had capped honey that extruded past the bounds of the frame. This caused the the hive to rip open some cells causing the honey to drip to the bottom.

Solution: give it more space. The top hinged cover makes sure no bees can escape keeping that slot tight was useless.

2) The honey that has spilled to the bottom has caused some bees to get stuck and die on the bottom. In the standard langstroth bees could simply walk out and have the heat from the sun melt the honey off of them. In this hive they cannot do his. I would also assume the bees will be less likely to pick up the dead and fly them out of the hive. 

Solution: Possibly put the entrance on the ground level? I am not sure how this issue is handled with the standard OHs.


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## captain776 (May 8, 2017)

Dillonmartin1 said:


> It is open space. I would estimate 4-6 inches. They also have 3-5 inches from the edges of the frames to the glass.
> 
> They will draw their comb how they please and will make their own beespace between combs. This is not something I can or want to control.


I asked because of what I read on Michael Bush's site about Observation hives.

Space Between the Glass

"For reasons unknown to me, no one seems to get this right. It's not the end of the world but it is a bit irritating. The Draper has about 2 1/4" between the glass and the bees burr the glass up a lot. The Brushy Mt. hives have 1 1/2" between the glass and when I put in frames of brood from a hive it was too tight a fit and the brood could not emerge and the bees absconded. I reworked the Brushy Mt. hives by adding a screen molding (available at the hardware store) which is 1/4" thick. I put it behind the hinges on the hinge side and behind the door as a stop on the opposite side and added one next to the door just to match the other side. This has worked perfectly and it is my most thriving hive now. 1 3/4" is just the right amount of space between the glass for an observation hive. 1 7/8" is ok."

That is why I asked for Lessons Learned so if there is an issue others have had, I can address it before building.
Thanks for your response.......appreciated


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## brushwoodnursery (Feb 10, 2012)

776,
Yes, it's important in the case of the designs MB is discussing. DM1's design is based on an entirely different set of parameters. He mentions up in the post that he knows they'll likely comb it up in spots and is OK with that. I'm looking forward to seeing it built out. it might look cleaner than we think in the end.
If you're looking at 2 parallel pieces of glass with one or two frames depth between, follow MB's advice. One OH I tend at a local nature center is loaded with comb on the front glass because too much space was left. I suggested adjustment a couple of years ago but my contact there really likes the look so we left it. My others are clean. I like being able to see the whole thing clearly.


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

captain776 said:


> That is why I asked for Lessons Learned so if there is an issue others have had, I can address it before building.


I read this on Michaels Bush's site as well prior to building. If you are building an OH that is structured like most (only one frame thick with frames either above/below or to each side,) this bee space will be crucial. You will want to dial that in so that you can easily remove frames and will have diminished chances of burr come which would obstruct your view and make inspections difficult.

This style of OH that I made ignores bee space outside of the 4 center frames. It is intended to allow the bees to draw comb as they please. Because it was ignored eventually the hive will be impossible to inspect and access. It may also inhibit the view at some point. That being said this was expected and was the goal. 

So it all depends on the style of OH you are building. I have seen people build the fish tank / aquarium hives. Those designs also must be made to utilize the correct bee space. Consider what type you would like, what you want to get out of the OH and how often you can inspect it. I am under the impression smaller 3 deep frame OHs will require you to have other hives with the same frame dimensions so that you can exchange frames frequently to prevent overcrowding.


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## captain776 (May 8, 2017)

Great.......thanks and the best to you n the girls


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

The bees have begun drawing comb. The cover I had on it was not thick enough and let some light through. This cause them to walk more on one side and they dirtied up the glass so we went into the hive today and cleaned it with a xacto knife. We were able to simply lift the top off and set on a rest. Here are a few pics.


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## brushwoodnursery (Feb 10, 2012)

Where's the Like Button?


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