# oxalic acid vaporizer guns



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

The only other one I have seen is at varroablaster.com. However, It is still only in the production phase and will not be released until next month according to their website.


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

dudelt said:


> The only other one I have seen is at varroablaster.com. However, It is still only in the production phase and will not be released until next month according to their website.


That was it, the other one I was looking for I found, it was some attachment to a heat gun. Well I'm ordering the provap now, "just in case", lets hope I dont need to use it.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Burgess propane insect fogger, $79.40 on Ebay, I used mine for the first time yesterday, 93 hives in 24 minutes, and I was not in a hurry. Go to youtube and there are instructions on use and how to mix the OA with grain alcohol.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Stan.vick, are you taking mite counts? Do you see mite drops onto your sticky boards. A lot of folks are talking about treating your way but there has been very little on results. 
Johno


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

No, I don't take mite counts. The vapor fills the entire hive boxes just as thoroughly as using a wand, so I don't see where it wouldn't be as effective.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

stan.vick said:


> No, I don't take mite counts. The vapor fills the entire hive boxes just as thoroughly as using a wand, so I don't see where it wouldn't be as effective.



This topic will never die and should be named "The Phoenix" and made into a sticky.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Johno, after reading the thread about foggers, I am concerned about the effectiveness of a fogger. I hope the 173 degree boiling point of the grain alcohol is keeping the OA from converting to something harmful or useless. I do know the wands I had been using get very hot, well above 212 degrees, so to me it looks like the fogger may be okay. I will keep using the fogger except for one of my apiaries (20 colonies) where I will continue to treat with a wand.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Jcase, if you want to check out band heater vaporizers in Equipment and hardware you will find you can make a vaporizer that will treat your hives in 30 seconds a hive after a 21/2 minute warm up period and with a fixed dose of OA and if you are handy with your hands or have friends who are it will not cost you more than about $40. I just play with other treatments just to satisfy my curiosity. You will not have a hot object in the hive and you will not have to remove entrance reducers.
Johno


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

johno said:


> Jcase, if you want to check out band heater vaporizers in Equipment and hardware you will find you can make a vaporizer that will treat your hives in 30 seconds a hive after a 21/2 minute warm up period and with a fixed dose of OA and if you are handy with your hands or have friends who are it will not cost you more than about $40. I just play with other treatments just to satisfy my curiosity. You will not have a hot object in the hive and you will not have to remove entrance reducers.
> Johno


I picked up the provap


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## Barhopper (Mar 5, 2015)

Why won't anyone fogging do drop counts?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

The appeal of of a using a fogger is its cheap, easy, and fast. Doing real science is none of those.


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## kramerbryan (Oct 30, 2013)

I just bought a fogger and some everclrar on a recent visit to Montana. I also have a varrox. I will do some mite counts with both and post results. I was hoping it was a cheap and easy alternative.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

msl said:


> The appeal of of a using a fogger is its cheap, easy, and fast. Doing real science is none of those.


Has anyone posted numbers for the ProVap?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Groundhwg said:


> Has anyone posted numbers for the ProVap?


Look at the mitedrop board on the Oxavap forum. That'll give you an indication of its efficacy.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

GH there are plenty of study's on OA vaporizers
however given the provap runs so hot and fast I agree it would be interesting to see what its thermal decomp is like compared standard ones 


> Look at the mitedrop board on the Oxavap forum. That'll give you an indication of its efficacy.


With respect, no, it tells you mites were killed in a infested hive, not the % killed 
Bad science like seeing a "bunch" of dead mites on a bord is why FGMO still haunts us and foggers are on the rise, you sell the product, I hold you to the same standards if not higher, I use to challenge the "foggers"... look dead mites on a board...my stuff rocks, doesn't cut it you can kill hundreds of mites a week, every week, all season long and not get a head of the issue
math, not marketing fair is fair, with out a dought the provap at has more decomp then a cold start pan heater
as Randy Oliver points out


> he CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics we find that upon heating oxalic acid, the water of hydration boils off first, then at 315°F the oxalic acid starts to sublime (go directly from solid to vapor), and finally at 372°F any oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed decomposes to formic acid and carbon monoxide.


meanwhile the provap literature states the operating temp starts at 446F and drops to approx 410-419f when OA is added 
this is well above the 372 thermal decomp temp and studys have shown that even cold start pan heaters have decomp issues.

In respect to GH's question, what study's have been done on the provap specifically  to show its OA/CO2/Formic out put results are on par with standard pan heaters?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

MSL:
I agree with much of what you have written. However, just as with the highly used commercial "gun" vaporizers such as the VM Vaporizer, you'll only find anecdotal evidence (of which there is much as evidenced by the postings here and the continued use of the guns as a defense against the mite.) There are no academic studies completed on the efficacy of either vaporizers and I don't think you'll ever see them as what's the need in doing them if in fact the anecdotal reports indicate they work.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Guns are scary and my mom asked me to quit playing with them.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

SNL thanks for taking it as it was intended, rereading it in the morning light a bit of a unintended "tone" might come threw in my post. 
A simple shoot x grams of OA in a box and weight it before and after will tell you how much the break down is


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Most of the scientific community still claim that it is quicker to treat with OAD than OAV because of the time taken to use a wand type of vaporizer. I think some of them are so far behind modern beekeepers that they might be still going to work on horse drawn buggies. I cannot speak for the provap but the band heater vaporizer I use is only about 200 watts and is temp controlled at 500F but when the OA hits the pan the temp drops to about 340F and when it climbs above 400F the charge is done and the vaporizer removed all in less than 30 seconds. I treated that hive that I was fogging with OA/glycerin that ended with a count of 12 mites per 1/2 cup and had a heavy mite fall 24 hour later and a fair amount fall 48 hours later and will do 3 more treatments at 5 day intervals then do another mite count and I am confident the count will be down.
Johno


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Mann Lake is carrying one now. Looks promising.


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

EastSideBuzz said:


> Mann Lake is carrying one now. Looks promising.


https://www.mannlakeltd.com/shop-al...roa-mites/varrox-deluxe-oxalic-acid-vaporizer

This one? that is the provap110.

I picked one up, works great. Hope not to use it next year at all, will see how all these news genetics and my ii work in spring.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I have experience with a couple of different wand-type vaporizers. While effective, they were slow.

I bit the bullet and bought a Provap to speed up the OAV operation. OAVing goes so much faster with the Provap. It is well worth the extra cost if you have more than a handfull of hives.


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

shinbone said:


> I bit the bullet and bought a Provap to speed up the OAV operation. OAVing goes so much faster with the Provap. It is well worth the extra cost if you have more than a handfull of hives.


:thumbsup::thumbsup:

SNL, I noticed some caking of OA on the convex of the lid; I didn't have to scrape it off until after about 30 treatments. Any pointers on that?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

JoshuaW said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> SNL, I noticed some caking of OA on the convex of the lid; I didn't have to scrape it off until after about 30 treatments. Any pointers on that?


No real pointers per se, you do get some as the OA is rarely powder dry and the moisture steamed off during heating causes a little to stick. I just rinse mine in water after usage.


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## petrunauco (Feb 27, 2018)

I started to use the Burgess fogger in the chilean Spring using oxalic acid and a bit of thymol dissolved in ethyl alcohol. I use mesh floors so I placed a board underneath and bored a hole to admit the fogger nozzle. I noticed very little varroa drop but assumed that the infestation was light.
I repeated once a month or so for about three months and never saw much varroa drop. Given all the wonderful recommendations for this system I was only mildly concerned.

Then I started to notice varroa on individual bees (!!!). Most of you know that this indicates a serious infestation. 

I switched to approx 60% formic acid, 30 ml per super on absorbent pads and again closed off the bottoms and placed a stiff white plastic sheet to observe the varroa drop--- there was a tremendous drop. The hives have since recovered but it was a close call.

I read up on the Burgess/OA system beforehand and made a general synthesis of the methods that were being promoted-- unfortunately I did not make notes assuming that the system was pretty well foolproof. I have some training in chemistry so I am pretty sure that my method was representative of the system.

I intend to experiment again with the Burgess/OA system in the future but I will certainly be much more cautious in my approach.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

I have also something for experimenting in 2018.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

kramerbryan said:


> I just bought a fogger and some everclrar on a recent visit to Montana. I also have a varrox. I will do some mite counts with both and post results. I was hoping it was a cheap and easy alternative.


I am looking forward to hearing your results, Thanks in advance.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Petrunauco, in my opinion, you should avoid the fogger system all together. It is not the same as vaporization. There was a thread in 2013 by Glock where he did a full year diary of his fogging routine. The thread can be found here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?283157-Started-fogging-today&highlight=fgmo. In the end, he had to vaporize the hives with OA because the fogging did nothing. OA in a fogger does not kill mites, at least I have never read anything that shows it works. Besides that, why would you want to put alcohol in your hives? It is toxic to bees as anyone who has done an alcohol wash can attest to.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

I now have gone to using hot water instead of grain alcohol, it's more trouble, but I deliver three and four grams per colony and it goes out of solution within seconds. I open the top and make a quick pass between each frame directly on the bees, and no it does not scald the bees. I just hold it a few inches away from them, I tested the temperature by holding my bare hand under the nozzle to determine a safe distance. A couple of weeks after the first of such treatments I noticed the brood was solid with very very few missing larvae, that sold me. I intend to treat twice a year during low brood periods such as winter and the summer dearth. This is sort of a super drench method, it will not work as a vapor because it goes out of solution so fast.


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## kramerbryan (Oct 30, 2013)

Sorry Ray. I have read so many things bad about the fogger I bought the provap in the fall. I wasn't going to risk loosing all my hives to be cheap. Provap pays for itself in time savings, and not loosing any colonies to mites.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

No Problemo, thanks for posting. I agree, too much info on them not working well is out there, for me to consider trying it myself.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

The common sense answer to all new types of treatment is to observe the results, firstly is there a substantial mite drop and second is there any observed damage to bees. If you are going to fog or do any kind of unproven treatment and do not do this you will probably end up in the same situation as Petrunauco. If you are going to treat with OAV and not do mite counts especially a few weeks after the treatment you can still end up in the same boat as my experience with counts forces me to treat colonies with OAV as much as 12 times a year. Dont believe me , do mite counts yourself.
Johno


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