# A good omen for this year?



## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

After years of having trouble getting clover to grow in our drain field, this year we found these:

















In fact, there were several more, all close to the apiary.

Its not that I believe in good luck. Its more that I think we found the problem, and these are part of the proof. 

Our first two years beekeeping we had essentially zero honey harvest. We've never had a significant flow. We could make excuses for the first year getting the bees too late. The second year we could blame the freaky weather. But in the back of my mind I've worried that even when there was an abundance of flowers that should produce nectar, including wingstem ("golden honey plant"), the bees didn't seem to bring in enough nectar to put weight on the hives.

The chronic problem at our place has been that the only summer-flowering plant that really goes nuts is Crown Vetch, which my wife hates and the honeybees have to be pretty hungry to work. Bumbles are all over it, and even with the apiary 40 ft away, the natives outnumber the honeys at least 4:1. The white clover we planted never could get a foothold. Last summer I finally did a soil analysis, and found the pH to be 5.7. That's too acid for clover to thrive, but perfect for Crown Vetch. Test strips also suggest a gross deficiency of P and K. A USDA soil map says our patch of wooded mountainside is largely Ultisols and Alfisols. My impression is that we have clay-rich soil of poor permeability and leached of certain nutrients, which would be a mashup of Ultisols and Alfisols.

We threw out some wood ash last year and that spot had a short but abundant clover growth surge.

I have been applying light doses of lime to a test area near the apiary, as well as some fertilizer that provides primarily P and K. This year the test area is showing lush clover growth, including the 4-leaf plants above. Also, this week the area showed an abundance of small yellow flowers on wild strawberries, plus some tiny blue flowers. Crown Vetch growth seems suppressed. The bees were showing a high interest in this area. The un-treated area is growing Crown Vetch and none of the little yellow or blue flowers. Clover is present only in a couple of spots where we had burning piles a few years back.

So hopefully the good omen is that we now understand the problem, and how to fix it. The bad news, of course, is that this 1/4 acre patch ain't squat. Even if we get the cleared spots around the cabin limed to a pH in the 6-7 range, it we're not gonna treat 16,000 surrounding acres.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I say forget it. Just find the locally adapted plants to
grow them. I'm sure the local ag agent can help you out if
there is one. Will the Bee-bee tree work?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I won't be planting any trees in the drain field.

The advantage of clover is mid-summer forage that can stand being nibbled by deer and which will make fresh blooms if mowed. 

The Crown Vetch that is growing naturally makes a viney mess over a foot deep right in front of the cabin, a perfect place for timber rattlers and copperheads to lurk. I like snakes, but I want to see them when I'm walking.

We do have a little Viper's Bugloss growing in the drain field, although not enough yet to interest the bees.

You are right, though, outside of the drain field. Locally adapted plants are the way to go. But locally adapted, in our mountains, means right where you are. The soil type varies over a range of a hundred yards. And pH is one of the more important factors. 5.7 is outside of the comfort range for a lot of good forage plants, so the ag agent may know what will grow in the adjacent valley, but it won't work here. Case in point, every fall we have goldenrod in the adjacent valley, but it cuts off hard at the gap into our valley. There's a small patch of stunted goldenrods growing in a wet area in our valley, but nothing else. On the mountain itself, no goldenrod at all. But wingstem grows in proliferation in certain patches in our valley.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Crimson clover will grow in acidic soil.

Alex


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

Phoebee said:


> small yellow flowers on wild strawberries


Although it may not matter to you or the bees -- yellow flowers probably indicate "Indian Mock Strawberry", don't know the scientific name. It will make berries that look vaguely strawberry like, but are held upright (true strawberries hang down) and are either inedible or not tasty (I've heard both). I have quite a bit of it on my yard, and though it isn't my worst weed, it tends to invade into beds. I suspect that IMS is distantly related to strawberry, but different enough to be in a different genus. True wild strawberries have white flowers and are truly delicious.

I can't vouch for Crimson clover and acid soils, but I can say that I've been planting it in small sections every two weeks and it sprouts very easily (Most recently faster than buckwheat).

Found the scientific names

Mock Strawberry: _Duchesnea indica_(sometimes called_ Potentilla indica_), 

Wild strawberries: _Fragaria vesca_


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## rv10flyer (Feb 25, 2015)

Get 25 ton dump truck load of ag lime and start scattering. I have various clovers on 6 acres growing. Crimson is blooming now. The bees love it. Also try buckwheat.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

rv10flyer said:


> Get 25 ton dump truck load of ag lime and start scattering. I have various clovers on 6 acres growing. Crimson is blooming now. The bees love it. Also try buckwheat.


Buckwheat has a different problem. Maybe this year the electric fence will keep the deer out. It grows but the bees have never gotten a taste so far.


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## rv10flyer (Feb 25, 2015)

We thin the deer and put them in the freezer. Much better than Chinese meat full of steroids and growth hormones. We put 16,000 volts on our fence and it deters them considerably. Sow buckwheat 4 weeks before your dearth and successive sow every two weeks. Cheap and will build your soil up.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I often see the wild mustard growing in the open fields here.
The pic look like the one on the garden/plant forum. Maybe those
will grow for you there on a small test patch first. Also you can ship
dump truck of the top soil that people don't want for a raised bed.
Then you can plant the asparagus that the bees like also. It will take
some time but the raised beds should work for you over time.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Beepro, not sure what pic you are talking about. Did you get this thread crosswired with the poster who thought they had goldenrod and everyone thinks it must be mustard? My pics above are definitely plain old white clover, aka "Dutch" white clover.

As for the dump truck of dirt, we have a resource up here we call 'bat dirt", taken from a small cavern that some nearby cavers are clearing out bucket by bucket. Through a tremendous amount of work, they've cleared small mountains of this very rich stuff, given away to neighbors. Raised beds of it produce lush vegetable gardens. And for anyone worried about the bats, be assured,this particular club of cavers is about the most bat-friendly group you'll ever meet, and they're restoring this cave as bat habitat. The entrance was closed for some huge long time, and probably re-opened after some flood. Bats may be responsible for the fertility of the soil but when the entrance was blocked they could no longer use it.

As for thinning the deer, yup, very tasty. And prolific. We've been unable to make much of a dent in the population, and it is a serious problem for the forest understory.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

What I'm saying is sow some wild mustard in your
area to see if they will grow or not. The wild mustard pic
is on the goldenrod post in the garden forum. Just something
for you to see that's all. I'm sure you know your plants well enough.
If they closed the entrance to the bat caves then the bat will be starved to
death for some huge long time. How can that be bat friendly? I don't understand this logic.
Anyways, get some of those bat fertile soil for your raised beds is better than adding more 
chemicals into your existing soil. Besides, it is too expansive for the application as the rains
will wash your chemical away then you have to do a yearly application. The long term solution
is to create a healthy habitat for your flowers and plants on top of the native soil there. Lots of
work but worth it in the end. Around here we have the heavy yellow clay soil as far up to the rocky
mountains. The only way to grow better veggies and plants for the bees is to dig a 1 foot trench and
fill it up with good organic compost soil. Over time you will have a raised bed above the clay soil. No
fertilizer is needed after that. Collard leaves stretch almost 2 feet across planted on these raised beds here.
And golden rods are almost 4 feet high. I'm putting in the mountain mints, groundnuts, winged beans, edible
white flower morning glory, and many bee friendly plants this season. Don't you think it is time to put in a
raised bed or 2?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

The good news: for the first time ever we now see a few white clover blooms, all in the limed area. It does seem to be working. 

The bad news: We've had a record 13 consecutive days with rain and the bees are getting cabin fever. The two big hives burned another 4 pounds each of stores. We still have not seen any significant nectar weight gain this year. I'm hoping this is just due to the weather.

Beepro, we do have a few wild mustard plants growing, but it is not prolific and I've never seen the honeybees use it. I can't say if this is because there is not enough of it, or if it just does not thrive well enough to be appetizing. Part of this lime experiment is to see if poor soil is keeping some otherwise good forage plants from making nectar. 

The cavers didn't close up the cave ... that happened naturally a long time ago. The cavers opened it up, and the rich dirt from the entrances is a byproduct. There seems to be a small underground river running down the valley. Two entrances have formed into it after heavy rains, one a few decades back and one more recently. Both are probably old entrances that had become sealed with debris.

We're big compost makers. We both make our own and buy it from the county by the pickup truck full (recycled yard waste). We use the homemade stuff for veggies, and the county stuff for general soil enrichment. My wife is growing the veggies in raised beds of bat dirt and compost, with no fertilizer, and the results are remarkable.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

More rain is coming your way.
Be ready to give them patty subs if they
burned through too much stores before the real
thing comes in.
We have fields after fields of the wild mustards here.
A few small patches the bees will not work them. It has
to be worthwile for them to work it. So improve your soil
and plant a lot. And don't forget about the horse manure compost
either. One thing about the recycled yard waste, you never know
what chemical products are use in there. They are good compost but who 
knows what is in there before as I never get to see what are the compost ingredients.
Because of this concern I buy my compost by the truck load from the local nursery store.
You are what you eat!


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Yeah, looks like there is a good chance of rain every day this week. At least the fruit trees we put in are digging it, and the clover we just planted germinated fast and should get a good start.

The bees, on the other hand, are wondering who they have to sting to get it to back off to sane levels.

So I guess if we get no flow this year, either, we still won't know if the area is even capable of one. On paper, it should be. Black Locust, Tulip Poplar, Black Gum, wild Blackberry and Raspberry, Blueberries and Huckleberries, Maples (striped maple is blooming now), Witch Hazel .... the list goes on and on.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

With a strong bloom but no flying weather is a honey year bust.
I would concentrate on making splits with plenty of subs feeding until the
Autumn flow again. Like farming it is a total guest on some year.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

We've never had a good autumn flow either. And again, I'm wondering about the soil quality, because we have wingstem out the wazoo and it should be a great fall nectar source for over a month. Hence the interest in clover and other forage to tide them over the summer dearth.

Someone at the bee club last night said "its still early yet." We did have a week and a half last year at the end of June that produced maybe 45 pounds in one hive. Which they stubbornly refused to put in the super. Danged bees never do listen to me.

Between the two overwintered nucs surviving and a new queen we have arriving in June to round out our genetics, we're pretty much at our target apiary size, so we were not planning to do a lot of splits. But maybe we will. We've geared up for modest queen production, with nucs and a queen castle on hand.

In the meantime, we're looking for good prices on sugar.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Every time I went shopping I will load up on the
sugar on sale. So it is a year long buying process. They
will need it for the summer dearth here for sure. This summer I
plan to feed them Lauri's sugar bricks and patty subs. Also plant
for them 45 days canola and buckwheat. These are the fast producing plants.
I don't care where the bees deposit the nectar as long as they make me some
honey. I will extract even on the brood frames. This will allow them more room
to expand the brood nest. If they listen to me then they are not the honey bees I want.
Mindless bees are dangerous!


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

BeePro,

What will you do with the honey you extract from the brood frames?

Alex


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

AHudd said:


> BeePro,
> 
> What will you do with the honey you extract from the brood frames?
> 
> Alex


Way beck when I was a newbee in the 70's...only had four deeps and a couple shallows. Two hives. Was really clueless. 

How I got by was I'd been given an extractor. I'd extract the outside frames in deeps. Usually they're solid honey. I'd stick them into the brood nest after extraction and roll on. Had to extract and put back the same day. Sometimes I'd get 3 or 4 frames per hive or maybe just one. It worked for me. We ate the honey out of some mighty old black combs. (yearly)


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

After a week of warm weather without TOO much rain, we're finally seeing some clover foraging going on. A few sprigs of sweet yellow clover are getting some attention, and for the first time at this location we've got enough big, fat white clover blossoms to attract the honeys.

Meanwhile, I finally got the Master Gardener to sift and box the soil samples we took from the untreated control patch a month ago, so maybe in a couple of weeks we'll get the report back from Virginia Tech with an analysis and recommendations for growing clover. Which at this point I assume will involve a schedule of lime applications at a given rate. I'll also find out if the K and P color test kits are worth anything. The big thing the Land Grant University labs can do that I can't is to test the buffering capacity of the soil. My pH measurement is probably pretty close, but if the soil has an acid buffer, that will drive the application rate, and how often I need to repeat until the buffer is used up.


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