# Mating Nucs



## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

I tried 4 of them out this year. They are good for what they are intended, mating queens, but they aren't good if you need to hold queens for any length of time beyond mating. I will keep using the ones I have, but will not order more. I like my 3 & 4 frame medium depth mating nucs much better.


----------



## thebeemanuk (Oct 16, 2014)

That Ok don`t need to store the Queens just get her mated and laying.
This is what i use at the moment there just a little small


----------



## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Then give a few a try and see if you like them. The only "improvement" I made to mine was putting a piece of thin clear plastic sheet on the top (I used binder paper sleaves cut open to one layer) so I could open the lid and see in without the bees pouring out. It had the added bonus of keeping the bees from glueing down the lid as well.


----------



## thebeemanuk (Oct 16, 2014)

cheers will order a couple for next season.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Your homemade ones look great, why change?

I never tried the foam mating nucs. After seeing how they look..super grungy and hard to clean after they get used, I went with home made instead. I didn't think foam would hold up over years of use.

I've used several designs, but I do like using a standard deep box and dividing it. It is fast to make, cost effective.





































But even the 5 frame half sized deeps can get full quick at certain times of the year.










Here is my new design for 2015. That small filler piece pulls right off the top of feeder so you can remove it for cleaning or dumping if needed.


----------



## thebeemanuk (Oct 16, 2014)

Hi Lauri i think i`m sold on your designs. 2 daft questions whats the mesh box for? and do you overwinter them


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thats my screened inner cover. I Love that piece of equipment. You can easily take a peek at the colonies without disturbing them and is a fraction of the time it takes to lift a stadard inner cover. Especially when the weather is cold or rainy.
I can feed right through that screen.
Yes, I have good success overwintering in these divided deeps.
I can post more design info later tonight after work. But for a quick read, here is a thread I wrote last fall about overwintering in these. I overwintered all 40 succussfully. 

I have about 90 I am finishing up on prep right now for this winter.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...n-overwintering-40-mating-nucs-on-mini-frames

When I have time, I'll update this old thread. It went well last winter, but there are a few more details I'd like to share.

This photo below are a couple very late (August) summer mating nucs that were my smallest..overwinterd perfectly. This photo was taken after near below 0 temps for about 10 days. When temps warmed enough, I went right out to my smallest colony and took a peek. I expected the worst and was pleasantly surprised to see them very content.


----------



## thebeemanuk (Oct 16, 2014)

Thanks Lauri more info more than welcome
Mike


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's the link to the thread with step by step instructions for the divided deep with interor feeder.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-for-feeding-when-nights-are-cold-spring-fall


----------



## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

I have 50 of these and find them good for getting mating nucs started in the spring when it is cool. Once they are up and running with lots of bees and brood, they can get overcrowded quickly. So, you have to keep up with them, or switch them over to larger nucs. A few things could be improved on them. First, they don't come with an inner cover, so when you take the top off the bees/queens from both nucs can mingle--not good. I use empty feed sacks stapled down the center divider for the inner cover. Clear plastic like Fishman would be even better. Second, there is a little space between the foam bottom and the plastic slide-in vent. It's not quite big enough for bees to get through...until they chew on it for a while. I discovered this while transporting about twenty of them in my truck. I stopped at a Subway for lunch and when I came back out to my truck there were hundreds of bees flying around. I left, but the bees stayed there. I got an earful from the owners next time I went to the Subway (actually, they are good customers now). My solution was to use duct tape to cover the gap in the bottom before restocking with bees. Third, a lot of bees can drown in the feeder since the side walls are smooth. I cut strips of #8 hardware cloth and fold it into an inverted Vee and place it in the feeders. No more drowning bees. Most of the nucs have made it through their third season with no degradation. However, carpenter ants discovered a few of them and ate the foam out of the bottoms, making it impossible to add syrup. I probably won't get any more, as I am making my own 4 and 5 half-frame nucs. Still, if you can catch them on sale, they are not a bad deal.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I don't really understand the benefit to the small frames. Is it that much better to have several tiny frames then two regular deep or medium frames? For instance, Lauri, your divided deeps - why have all the tiny frames (and the work of making them and dealing with the variation in gear? Why not just divide the other direction and use four or five standard frames?

I know that a lot of people like three or more combs in a nuc, and I know people talk about the ease of finding a queen on less comb, but once you've got 8 or 9 little frames... 

I'm asking because I really want to work with the fewest number different pieces of equipment I can. I want to find the optimum point of efficiency. 

Is using 2-deep-frame or 4-deep-frame mating nucs that much less effective as to warrant the building/buying/storing of all the extra gear?

Adam


----------



## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I don't really understand the benefit to the small frames. Is it that much better to have several tiny frames then two regular deep or medium frames? For instance, Lauri, your divided deeps - why have all the tiny frames (and the work of making them and dealing with the variation in gear? Why not just divide the other direction and use four or five standard frames?
> 
> I know that a lot of people like three or more combs in a nuc, and I know people talk about the ease of finding a queen on less comb, but once you've got 8 or 9 little frames...
> 
> ...


Totally agree with this ! I think it is a lot of extra work and more equipment to deal with  Can someone clear up why the frames need to be cut up ?


----------



## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Was a the local bee meeting last night and the presenter uses a six deep frame NUC with a divider in the middle. An entrance each direction. Two sides help to heat each other. An option to consider.


----------



## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

It's very simple Adam and Ben. Try making up the mating nucs with your full size frames this year. Make up your 2, 3, or 4 frame units. See how your resources stretch to get all your queen cells into mating nucs, mated, and allow to build up. It could be you have enough resources that you don't need the smaller frames and mating nucs. It wiill save you equipment like you say.

After next year, then consider that with the same amount of resources, bees that is, you could potentially double what you produced this year with the 1/2 size frames. But it takes a little extra work, space, time, feed, etc... Consider them just another tool to decide if you can make use of them or not.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Brandy has the idea right - the point of small mating nucs is more mated queens on less bees. There is a skill to it - it is not always easy to make baby nucs work right, and it appears to favor the operations with a certain number of hives in the first place - and it seems to differ with different areas.

Up North, the season is short, and those who try to make a LOT of queens are busy straight through the season. Those folk get pretty good at what they're doing. It would benefit one greatly to work for or even volunteer for a Northern breeeder who uses mini mating nuc's. And then, some years, everything just goes right, and everything you try works.

One thing that seems to help a lot is that he tiny cluster has at least 3 combs to cling to. This seems to reduce the quirky behaviors of mini mating nuc's. 

An advantage of full-length frames is that you have no extra step in getting them into the larger hive boxes, and it is even easier if they mate in full-size boxes. All you do is move one colony to the next full-size box, remove the hive partition, and add frames to the box. So if you are making them for increasers, this is probably better. If you are trying to sell as many queens as possible, then the mini mating nuc's with the small frames make sense.

Hope this helps...


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Brandy said:


> It's very simple Adam and Ben. Try making up the mating nucs with your full size frames this year. Make up your 2, 3, or 4 frame units. See how your resources stretch to get all your queen cells into mating nucs, mated, and allow to build up. I... then consider that with the same amount of resources, bees that is, you could potentially double what you produced this year with the 1/2 size frames...


That's my point though, Brandy. If one does as Lauri is doing, and divides a 10 frame deep into twin 10 mini frames, or twin mini 8's with a feeder - then you're still using the resources of two five frame or two four frame nucs.

If you're using 4 mini frames, then it's the same bee resources of two deep frames. Plus you have the added effort of making and storing the extra gear (smaller frames and boxes) and comb.

I get the idea of stretching resources. What I don't understand is how the use of mini frames actually does that.

If, as Kilo says, the bees want at least three combs - and people see a major benefit to that - then fine. Three mini's are half the resources (bee and wax wise) as three full frames. 

But if the three comb idea is not that critical - or the results are not that different from paired frames - then I don't see how there's any true efficiency in mini's.

Adam


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Adam - This is why I like using 10-frame boxes with slots for hive partitions. I can divide mine into 1 x 10-frame, 2 x 5-frame nuc', 3 x 3-frame mating, or 7 + 3-frame breeder queen isolation, even 2 x 4-frame with division feeder.

I do have to make up special SBB hive floors that have slots for the partitions, and narrow inner covers for the 3 x 3-frame mating arrangement, and half-inner covers for the 2 x 5 arrangement. Some woodwork, indeed, but all one size frame is a big benefit (I'm phasing out deeps in favor of medium 6 5/8" boxes).

I use the double / triple SBB's over a screened moving top to have a double screened board for stacking above a strong colony.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> If one does as Lauri is doing, and divides a 10 frame deep into twin 10 mini frames, or twin mini 8's with a feeder - then you're still using the resources of two five frame or two four frame nucs Adam


That would be true if I filled them in spring. But I do not. I can start them with just a few half sized frames. 

There a a lot of advantages to using mini frames. They are small, but significant enough to warrant the extra work needed to set yourself up with them.
One of the reasons is, there is more _interior frame surface _ with 4 mini frames as compared to 2 standard frames. I think they are laid up better and rear brood in cooler spring temps better than the larger exposed set up. It takes a lot less bees to keep that brood warm when they are all concentrated on the center and not opened up & spread out over a full sized frame.

This bench will yield me 12 queens every 3 weeks, They have room to grow, then I wrap them to overwinter in place. If I need to take out a frame or two during summer, it is less intrusive than removing a whole standard frame out of a 4 frame nuc. The work I save by not having to make up all my mating nucs every spring, far outweighs the couple days I took to make the half sized deeps. 










Everybody should have a couple of these little guys hanging on their fence, with a newly mated queen just waiting to be placed.. You can fit them in anywhere without a big impact on your resources, even if you space is very limited.



















How about this? Really tiny if your weather is warm enough. (Turkish photo off the internet)










But you can rear them any way you want. Especially if you only plan to do a few.

I do use standard frames for mating nuc's too, but I find when that larger nuc has a really good queen that is going to town, I am more reluctant to remove her and risk a good full sized growing nuc to a new virgin queen. I tend to remove the queens from the smaller nucs first, because the is much less risk to a good colony if the next queen fails to return.


----------



## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I tried a little queen rearing this year, with no success; so I am starting over next year after getting a lot more book knowledge and ideas. Last year's experience didn't really cost me anything and I hope it will increase this years chance of success. 

I have 1 standard nuc and I built 2 more. I will use these with the Mel disselkoen OTS queen rearing method with one small additional step. 

I will make a queen castle as soon as my dumpster diving yields the rest of the materials. It will be a standard deep divided 3 ways length wise so that standard frames can be used. Three sides will have holes drilled for entrances to the various chambers. Each side will be painted a different color.

I am using a method developed by Bryon Fisher. He is a master bee keeper in Concord, NC. He is only about 20 miles from Charlotte, so his technology should travel that far well. I am learning quickly that beekeeping is more art than science and that the successful methods are very local.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

dsegrest said:


> ... I am learning quickly that beekeeping is more art than science and that the successful methods are very local.


I liken it to playing chess while managing a baseball game and building an airplane all at the same time.


----------



## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Exactly, it's all about location. Some of you have nice long seasons which allows you to make use of other resources, equipment, etc.. You may get 2,3,4 more brood cycles than some of us with short seasons. Some can start sooner, some later but many need to deal with hot summer weather that may exclude using mini's because of the heat. If you're in VT you may need to get at it hard and fast. In VA you can stretch it out and not have to graft 96 cells at a time.. Work with what you have, depending on your area. As Nike say's, just do it, improve your own apiaries genetics while you discover the parts that work the best for you. .02


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

As I said, I use several kinds of mating nucs. I can hold some queens much longer than 3 weeks if I wish, I have some I have to remove in a timely mannor or the queen will run out of room to lay and get suppressed. 
You also have to consider what you'll end up with later on. Heres an example. These triples work very well and I could get quite a few more queens out of a bench full of these compared to doubles.
(Those are virgins in the roller cages set on top.) 










Look what happens when you turn your back. Here we are at about 4 weeks. It seemed like I just put the virgins in the other day:










These were gorgeous late June queens I decided to keep. NOW what do I do? 

Why CRAM them in in larger accomodations of course. Makes for a full bench. I wasn't thinking ahead here. There _will_ be some queens you want to keep. Being able to do that without messing around reorganizing too much is pretty convenient. That's why I tend use the sizes I do. Not too big, not too small with room to grow if I want them to without a bunch of extra labor for me.



















Although they were just fine like this, it's not quite what I had in mind for organization. 










All the mating nuc sizes work have different benefits/drawbacks. I tend to favor starting out with 4 or 5 half sized deeps (along with new frames in a 10 frame deep) for the best overall general use in cooler climates.


----------



## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

those triples look like what I was going to build (copied from Bryon Fisher). The only difference is that he uses a board as an inner cover for each segment. He uses a 12 oz soda bottle with 2 holes punched in the cap with drywall nails turned upside down and pushed into a 1" hole. He puts a medium super on the top to conceal the "feeders" and a telescoping top cover on that.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I liked the triples if you are aiming for higher volume of mated queens, but they get crowded too fast. Sure, you can remove a frame from each, once in a while, but then theres that maintenance issue again. & You really need to have a drawn frame to replace it with. 

I don't have issues with cross over with bees or mated queens when I remove the screened inner cover. I do give them a puff first and drive them down a bit.

Direct releasing virgin queens that are a couple days old when they are confident and strong can be tricky. They'll run over the divider if you are not careful. Seperate inner covers are always handy for divided nucs. A flat board won't give you much room for a protein patty though. You can see I run a rim around my inner cover to give me room for that.
Or you can run your frame shelf a bit deeper on a router for use with a flat inner cover. I also run a 1" rim on my bottom boards so I have room for a slighly lower frame. I actually staple my bottom boards to the divided mating nucs for a more positive seperation. (No shrinkage and gaps)
Heres the bottom of that divided deep with interior feeder
YOu can see how I staple the rim around the bottom.










The pine 3/4" divider is very dry, but will still shrink a bit. I leave it a touch long to allow for that. 










You can see my frame shelf is a bit deeper than standard to allow room for solid feed. With the bottom stapled in place, you can see I have no gap issues or unintended cross over, especially from a frisky virgin looking for a kill. 










I'll fabricate these and let them set for a few months. Then seal up and gaps that may have opened up with clear silicone. After they are painted, I'll drill a few small drain/air holes in the solid bottom. (A bit larger and a few more than you see here.) I don't want it drafty, just some drainage & air. That's not near enough to confine them though. But that's part of the reason I use the screened inner cover. Feeding through inverted mason jars /quick visual checks/ easy good ventillation when necessary.


----------



## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

You are a much better craftsperson than I am. I was planning on using old election signs for dividers. Also my operation is so small right now that I can immediately move the queen and her subjects to a regular nuc as soon as I am sure she is mated. If for some reason she doesn't come home after her night out, I can just pull the divider and combine the two hives. I hope they won't kill each other.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Well, I should really rename my place from the Miller Compound to the 'Prototype Palace'. I've made all kinds of mating nucs, lol
I still use them all, just because I have them. I need to have a beekeepers yard sale soon, so I can somewhat standardize my stuff. But because I overwinter most of them in place, I have no issues storing a bunch of odd ball equipment.

It wasn't very long ago my opperation was very small too  Like most, I just wanted to rear a few queens for my own use. 
But once you get the hang of it, & people find out you raise queens, you'll never have enough mating nucs.


----------



## farlow51 (Feb 2, 2012)

With the clock running,
and no time outs left.


----------

