# Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-bu...ZXMEc2xrA3doeXlvdXNob3VsZA--?mod=bb-budgeting

Ah yes nothing like professional business advice. How bout these numbers? A barrel of honey is bringing well over $1,000 WHOLESALE, a box full of bees is RENTING for $150 right now, 3# packages are being sold for $80. I remember .80 honey and $35 dollar rental prices less than 10 years ago. Yet there still seems to be a perception that there isnt money to be made?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"Bee Fever" is an incurable disease that was first identified back in the mid 1800s and is endemic among beekeepers. One theory is that it is caused by the bees doing mind control over the beekeeper...

http://bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Getting the Bee Fever


http://bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm#CHAPTER1

"As soon as I began to read this book, I contracted what is known as the "bee-fever," which took so strong a hold of me that I was not satisfied till I had borrowed and read Langstroth's book, and purchased Quinby's work, besides subscribing for the "American Bee Journal." "--G.M. Doolittle, Scientific Queen Rearing


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Hmmmm, makes me wonder if your advisor is like a lot of others who think beekeeping is some gentlemen's hobby you do to pollinate the garden. They simply have no concept of how much honey can be produced from one hive, and how much honey sells for in a jar.


They likely don't know how much work it is when it's hot and humid or when you're still extracting honey at midnight.


I'm in it for the money, and yes, you can make money at beekeeping. Like any agricultural enterprise, there are variables and risks and no guarantees. I run 150 hives and I'm not about to quit my day job. I sell retail and bottle my honey for the farmer's markets and wholesale through the health food store. These things also take time.


Several years ago, my wife was giving me grief about all the dinner interruptions with swarm calls. I made enough money that year to send her on a 7-day cruise. She was nice enough to let me come along. Now she complains if the phone isn't ringing wondering who's taking all my swarms. I've also got two kids in college to support. I tell them they should be thanking the bees.


Make money? Yes. Work hard? Absolutely. Retire filthy rich? No, just filthy, but content with an honest day's work.

It can be done. Somewhere there's a nice poem called, "Do it anyway." Business advisors may not comprehend or understand, but you have to do it anyway.

Also, watch the movie that came out a couple of months ago about the race horse, Secretariat. It's a movie about a female horse owner in a male-dominated industry who believes in her horse when everyone around her thinks she's lost her mind.

Kind of like beekeeping.

Grant
Jackson, MO


http://maxhoney.homestead.com

.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

If you have to ask the question...
...You will not understand the answer.


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

It feels good on me.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

Kingfisher Apiaries,

Have you considered that your business advisor doesn't know or understand the agriculture industry, or the commodity markets. Take a look how he makes money and that will show you what he know about business, remember the Junk Yard operator (recycler) in making money, they just do not always look like it.

Their is always money to be made, and yes you can make 80 to 90K in a commercial bee operation, why not.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

HarryVanderpool said:


> If you have to ask the question...
> ...You will not understand the answer.


Quite the contrary, I know the answer. Just seeing why others are in it. This guy obviously does not understand ag, I tried to explain it to him. Just because I am not makeing more than 20k my first year does not mean it is a bad idea. He is used to people that have a little bigger business i.e. franchises etc. What I meant by the 80-90k figure is more of the sideline crowd, but could be wrong
Thanks for the constructive criticism. :lookout:



m


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

jim lyon said:


> A barrel of honey is bringing well over $1,000 WHOLESALE, a box full of bees is RENTING for $150 right now, 3# packages are being sold for $80. I remember .80 honey and $35 dollar rental prices less than 10 years ago. Yet there still seems to be a perception that there isnt money to be made?


But, consider that overhead has come way up with those prices.

mike


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What else is there to do?
I enjoy doing what I do, even if I ain't gettin' rich.
I'm my own boss. I credit myself when successful and blame myself when something doesn't work. Unless I can lay it off on the weather.
I like selling honey. I get a high off of it. I like to be known beyond my immediate aquaintences. Having Squeak Creek Honey out there on the shelf does that. It feeds my ego.

That's all for now.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

LSPender said:


> Their is always money to be made, and yes you can make 80 to 90K in a commercial bee operation, why not.


I whole heartedly agree. The trick is not spending 110K doing so. Or did you mean Gross?


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## concrete-bees (Jun 20, 2009)

hang in there bud - there money in the rainbow 

look at me - haha - i make good money every year - i started a side biz with the bees and has nothing to do with honey 

i go house to house in building lots and charge $5 per house to remove any wasp nest around the house - i do 20-30 per day - and do this twice a year 

so its $100-200 or so extra every day for about 2 months a year - i take this money then and buy honey bee supplies - so there is money to be made yeah ...is there money to be kept ...no haha 


if you have a set number of hives then you could see a profit - but if you are like me and see that i can make say $ 200 per hive each year times that by 1000 hives -- you have $200,000 that year - but if you see that if you take that money and put it back into more hives did you make any profit? the bank will say no but you know that you are "banking" on $300,000 next year 

so do let them say there is no money in it --- let me do it 

take for instance -you have 1000 hives and you get a price for $150 per hive from the Almonds - you truck them over there for say $2000 for time and fuel, labor- 
and then you return home with your bees - and you need to medicate with mite stuff - so about $30 bucks for meds and labor (bees dont do it themselves) per hive - so thats $30,000 for 1000 hives - then you dont get a honey crop - (it happens) so then come fall you have to feed hives - say $50 per hive - that another $50,000 in the whole - and then come spring and you have 30% loss of bees - so you need 330 packages - at $50 per package (if you get a good seller ) thats another $50,000 out the door .. so with just that -- thats $130,000 in loss of your $150,000 income of the year 

more on this later - i have to go to work but this is a look at what can happen


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

The same can be said if you were farming cows, pigs, sheep, and grain. Your not in the business to get rich. If you are you are in for a shock. Farming is more about a love for the land, the animals and the bees. Yes it is a business, there is still profit and loss, good years and bad, but can you imagine doing anything else?
We got into bees to help diversify the farm. So our eggs were not all in one basket so to speak. 
But we do it because we can not see ourselves doing anything else. And when the markets are tight, profit is nil, bank account is low, and the weather does not cooperate, sometimes the only thing we have to hold on to is God, family and the love of farming. "It will be better next year"! Famous saying amongst farmers.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

To answer your first question, yes you can make a living, but not the first couple of years because all your expenses are up front. Once you can get things up and running and income coming in your can expand and increase what your bring in. Remember however, it is ag so it can be trying at times. To answer your question about making money, running around 4000 hives you can make 600-800k. But you have expenses with that kind of operation so don't think that is all take home. However, the guy I work with that runs an operation that big is buying new trucks, building a new honey house and generally does pretty well (but he took over the business from his dad and has been beekeeping over 50 years). Oh and he also works 7 days a week and has no life outside of beekeeping...so be prepared for that.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

If he doesnt understand, I think you should be getting another business advisor. There is a tremendous amount of potential in the farming business including beekeeping. If he rolls his eyes at beekeeping as being a viable business, then he mustnt look an farther than giving coffee shops advice. 
sit that man down with me, ill show him my profits and losses over the years. Ill also show him tremendous potential that lies in this business. His job is to help explore that potential viability. Not assuming ist a waste of time! Thats his Job! He should be able to see the potential in it!


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm second generation comm. honey producer. I don't know is there anything else out there. I fired my accountant years ago and do my own books. They always look good when I'm done. Money is overrated!!! Just like farming you sell the crop to buy seed to replant.:scratch:


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Money is overrated!!! :[/QUOTE said:


> :thumbsup: But you are right. Being happy and doing something you love doing is the key. Some money flow is a bonus! I'm going into my second year beekeeping and I just hope to make enough money to get my wife off my back about buying bee equipment and double my apiary by the end of 2011! I'm at 12 right now.
> 
> -Dan


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

There are only a few things where true wealth is created. Agriculture, mining, fishing, etc. All the other jobs down the line depend on the wealth created. With beekeeping, you are a primary producer of real wealth.

Try listening to Jim Rogers for financial advice - he encourages people to learn how to farm, and beekeeping is farming. 

Even if you love the land, it's difficult to get into farming unless you inherit a farm. It just doesn't pencil out if you have to buy land, equipment, etc. and pay the mortgage note. Beekeeping is one area of agriculture where someone with nothing can become a farmer and make a living at it.

One of the reasons I like beekeeping is because I don't trust my government and its fiscal policies. I foresee massive inflation headed our way. By putting dollars into bees and equipment, I avoid the devaluation if I left it in dollars in a bank account. Also, by having bees, I have a product I can market and I can adjust the price to market conditions and do a better job of keeping pace with the inflation. Honey is an excellent barter item (food, medicine, etc) - keep that in mind for times of social upheaval.

Beekeeping is a job you can't get laid off from. You are buying yourself a job. In today's economy, that kind of security is very valuable.

God promised his people the land of milk and honey. I believe that beekeeping is honorable to my God, unlike many professions or investments that profit on someone else's misfortunes. With beekeeping, I have to depend on my God for my fortune.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Some financial advisors are great in mainstream finances. However farming is a whole different ball of wax. So if this advisor does not get it, find one who does.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Why do you stay in the bees? 

Next year will be better.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Getting sound business advice and financial advice is important. It is also important that the financial advsor understands beekeeping. Its like having a general computer consultant. This consultant might know every nuiance about Microsoft Vista or Windows 7. That doesn;t mean you would hire this consultant to build you a custom beekeeping application to track your every desire.

I went round and round with insurance companies lately trying to get reasonable insurance for my endeavors in beekeeping and selling honey. burned thru 4 local companies before finding one that is reasonable and gives me the amount of insurance I need. It took me seeking out an insurance company that understands beekeeping. One of the companies had the audacity ask for city adress for all locations of my bees. I tried to explain to them I move bees from here to there multiple times a year and that they dont have a mail box at their location. This falls into the idea that I dont let my bees use cell phones so they can find their way home. I did tell them I could provide co-ordinates but I cant have them dictate to me thats where my bees have to stay to be covered. 

I guess point being put together a solid business growth plan. Take a pencil and give yourself a solid idea of what your expansion will cost. Use the same pencil and calculate what your average income should be from that and think about how happy you are at the end of the day, season, year.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

BMAC said:


> I went round and round with insurance companies lately trying to get reasonable insurance for my endeavors in beekeeping and selling honey. burned thru 4 local companies before finding one that is reasonable and gives me the amount of insurance I need. It took me seeking out an insurance company that understands beekeeping.


mind saying which co. you ended up with and save me the legwork. thanks


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Check out CWG (continental western group)


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

CWG only works in the mid section of the US. http://www.cwgins.com/Products/BusinessIndex.html Does not help the guy in NY.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Farm Family Casualty Insurance Company.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

wildbranch2007 said:


> mind saying which co. you ended up with and save me the legwork. thanks


I went with Texas Insurance and Financial Services. Yes they do provide NYS insurance. Very reasonable compared to what NY reps want for their over priced over rated coverage.


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

i have bees for 2 reasons. fame and women lol


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Greg, really women. My wife wish I would quit talking about bees.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Greg is right. Beekeeping is very effective at detering fame AND women.

Roland Diehnelt, 5th gen beekeeper.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

unknown and single I assume?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

SQKCRK - you must be psychic....... Maybe we should start a new acronym PCCDSD - Post Colony Colapse Disease Stress Disorder.

And life goes on.

Roland


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## Elwood (Apr 8, 2009)

Kingfisher,

I do it because it keeps me in touch with the real world. It has re-aquainted me with my community, through marketing, and it seems to be a net plus for the environment.:applause:


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## wabeeman (Dec 3, 2010)

Almost too many reasons to list but here's a few:
-The challenge of managing a multi-faceted business.
-The variety. Every year is different and every season has something different to do.
-The innovation. Coming up with a better/faster/easier (insert favorite innovation here). 
-The camaraderie of other beeks.
-The solitude of working bees. 
-The opportunity to learn something new on a regular basis.
-Producing, packaging, selling a wholesome product to some of the best customers in the world.
-Not having a rigid schedule.
-Yep, even earning $. We're not gettin' rich but, while my contracting business is currently in the toilet, the bees are keeping us alive.
Farming isn't for the faint of heart. You do it because you love it. It's something you can't really explain to others. Some get it, most don't.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I do it for fun and profit.

Jean-Marc


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

I do it so I have an excuse (for the wife) to spend all that "Honey Money" that we are going to make next year!! 
Or is that bumper crop coming the year after or the next one after that???
Seems to never come, but it is a good excuse for me to get away and spend some time with the bees.
Best of all though, is to teach my children what being a BEEK is all about and so they can hopefully pass on the family tradition!!!


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

I read on the National Honey Report, at the end of it on page 18. Here are some figuers as to why people raise bees.

18 Pacific Northwest Bee Keepers reported numbers to the govt for a POLLINATION report. 

For the 18, the AVERAGE take home for each was $488K. They reported a total of 60K hives between 18 people. That's 3330 a keeper. So you can see, there is money in beekeeping... for now. The report also highlights some things like rental prices are in a bubble right now. Honey prices are in a bubble right. Some things to take into consideration there.

EDIT: What I also failed to deduce from that report is OPERATING cost per hive. In pollination alone, it doesnt seem like a beekeeper would make it. So honey production is needed to coax profits from the business. Again, Chinese Honey will kill US beekeepers.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Part of the reason I am asking this question is a conversation at dinner a few months ago with Larry Connor. We were talking about Adees. He said that despite having a gazillion hives Richard does not make a whole lot. Connor said "its a drop in the bucket". 
mike


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

Here's some quick math (very BROAD) since he has farms all over and does other things... these numbers will be off obviously, but it should give some insight.

80K hives X $157 avg cost to maintain a hive = $12.56M
80K hives @ *SD prices = 66/lb X 80K = $6.7M
80K hives @ Almond Poll. Prices = 80K X $144(avg) = $11.52M

All together, 11.52M+6.7M = 18.22M sales -12.56M ops cost = $5.66M(PROFIT)

However, he has larger overhead than ALL bee operations so he probably spends an additional amount to operate that largely, knock off an additional 2M for that and he's clearing over $3M in the bank. That's pretty good I think. 

Those are just bare numbers backed by not many facts. But that's the possibilty...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Your right TSAADAM13 those assumptions arent backed by facts. Far be it for me to defend the Adee operation but I run a similar operation on a much smaller scale. Your assumption that because they supposedly run 80K hives at some point in the year that therefore it follows that all 80K hives not only would be honey producing units but would further grade out or even be alive for almond pollination the following February shows you need to do a little bit more study on beekeeping and the problems associated with it.


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

Jim - Absolutely, there are many factors that go into beekeeping. But without doing math for three hours to arrive at more precise figures that wouldn’t be worth my time I went with a BROAD figure, which I stated was broad up front. 

I interviewed a beekeeper out of WA that has 10+K hives. He has money. I have seen his home(s) rows and rows of corvettes, boats, four wheelers, you name it. And so I have seen his wealth. He states he makes just over 1M a year in profits from Honey (ND and HI) and Pollination (WA,CA,ID,MT and CO). He says he keeps his costs low and does A LOT of work himself. So would it really be farfetched to say that Adee would make 3-4M with 80k hives? .... NO. How can you have 80K hives and not bring in 3-4M. A guy with an operation that big has consultants that make his business processes much more profitable than a hobby beekeeper or a small commercial operation can afford to.

So you probably run an apiary? It wouldn't be prudent of me if I didn't do my research. Blue Star Honey out of Herrick, SD if I am right? So without alluding to your real profit margins, maybe on a microcosmic scale you can enlighten me. If you had 1K hives, by the govts numbers in the USDA report on Honey rel FEB 26th 2010 by NASS, you should make approx 66K in honey and 144K for pollination, for a GT of 210K in revenue (if you do both) of course, accounting for ALL the things I didn’t research and need to spend more time doing (which I am). You can tell me how far off I am. Based on 1K hives (in your operation) where did I fail?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Well the key to Jim's future success or not is wether he spent more or less $210 K. You are probably not far off on the revenue side. The wild card will be the expenses. These unfortunately add up so fast and could easily be more than $210 K.

On the pollination report you claim take home of $488 000 per beekeeper based on an average of 3300 hives. That would mean and average of $147/hive of profit. Well I very much doubt that figure. I can see some individual outfits generating profit like that, but definitely not on an average.

Jean-Marc


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Prudent TSA? Yeah I see what you mean, can't be too careful nowadays. Especially with all the anonymous signatures you see.......waaaait a minute. Well more to the point, there are those that choose to be quite specific about their operations on here and those who choose not too. Put me in the second group.
But anyway let's suppose for a moment that I do run a 1,000 hive operation, doubt that I would sell it for any less than $250,000, after all its generating me almost than much revenue per year. So those that want to get in on the big bucks just need to go for it!!! Sure there is the small matter of the $150,000 of overhead (by your numbers) and the interest (don't forget you will be about $400,000 grand down before you see your first dollar) and oh yeah you will probably want to make a little headway on the principal as well to keep the banker happy. And then there is the issue of paying yourself for all your work and risk so that you can pay for groceries and buy shoes for the kids and keep paying on that pesky house mortgage (I assume you won't be living in the honey house). I think you've pretty much got this business pegged, find your self a willing banker, a nice little turnkey operation and get in on the gravy train you will have your first Corvette before you know it.


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

.....

i don't quite understand why this person is asking so many questions when they seem to know more "facts" than half the beekeepers on here. personally i would never rely on any type of honey report as they are quite inaccurate. i don't even know where they get the numbers for state averages. second of all i would never share any type of expense/profit figures with ANYONE!!! it is really no one elses business. the amount of money that is at risk everyday would scare you. just seems to me that some of these questions being asked are a little advanced for a basic report.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

TSADAM13 said:


> I interviewed a beekeeper out of WA that has 10+K hives. He says he keeps his costs low and does A LOT of work himself.


 Does "alot" mean most of the work. Must be the six million dollar man.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Well said Greg. When to college for accounting and you can always make things on paper look good if you want. The bee business is one that gets in your blood and with alot of hard work you make some money. I'm I getting rich NO. I make enough to take care of my family, my #1 job. Glad to have a job that I love and enjoy doing. 

There is more hobbie hives then comm. hives. How many hobbiest report they production???? Better yet how many comm. beekeepers report their #'s in full??? WHO'S BUSINESS IS IT?????:scratch:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Accounting? I can tell.


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

It's a simple report, but in doing the report, the research has to be exhaustive. Yea, I ask more questions than I need for my report because as you guys stated in your comments... the numbers just don't add up. I don't trust one govt report, that's why I ask these individuals on this forum for thier experience. Nunbers do matter in my report because loss of profits is why you will cease to exsist in 20 years.

Which leads me to another point that has been illuminated in my research. Beekeepers don't stick together. For running a business based on "hive mentality" You guys sure like to say but you really hate one another. What my report is going to highlight, beyond Chinese Honey killing beekeepers int he US, is that when the beekeeper vanishes, it will be of his own doing. The rest of the world will take over food production, mainly outsourced to China because the US beekeepers didn't band together and lobby congress to fix it fast enough. Between diseases and foreign market competition, the end is coming for the US beekeeper because they won't help eachother, talk to eachother to improve operations and mainly don't care about eachother. Of course, on the outside you say you do, but really, you don't. You all stay in your own "hives" squabling with eachother across the fence and worrying about yourself, funny you didn't learn anything from the bee's you care for. 

So my deeper questions, are aimed at spurring debate among the communnity, social media is just one way to engineer that. If I can get beekeepers to "share" knowledge and "secrets" with eachother, maybe they will stick around, profits will rise, and my kids won't have to eat Chinese cherries and apples in 30 years.


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Does "alot" mean most of the work. Must be the six million dollar man.


He has four guys helping him through the season, of course they are not legals. But him and his sons take a big share of the work. They also were previously owners of a fast food restraunt chain in CA, was a business major, with a masters as well. One son was currently going to school to be an entomoligist. They have thier stuff together, purchased an apiary being sold through a friend who told them about it. They use thier skills in business and trade to bring the company to extreme profibility. But they view the company as a wholesale business. They have figuered out how to keep costs low (because of the time they spent in the restraunt industry) they look at everything as a "procedure" that can be easily trained and taught. They are doing well. Of course that was 20 years ago when they bought it. So go figure, someone who has an education, and learned business and trade can apply those skills to do well in a business that is supposed to make you broke, or barely survive. Hmmmm, makes sense to me.


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

gregstahlman said:


> .....
> 
> i don't quite understand why this person is asking so many questions when they seem to know more "facts" than half the beekeepers on here.


@Greg, I don't know anything. I never claimed to know more then "half the beekeepers on here" my questions and debate are aimed at getting at the real answers. The NHR can say one thing. The Honey report can say one thing. But we all know that those reports can be misleading. So who are you supposed to believe? There are some things we can say for certain. 1) CCD is real and posses a serious threat to you, and the rest of America. 2) China will flood US Markets with honey causing collapse in Honey prices if unchecked. 3) These two factors will cause you (and the rest of the commercial beekeepers) to be out of a job in less then 20 years. More like 5 if left unchecked. Because none of you stick together. You think GM would have been bailed out if thier wasn't a union? What I am getting at is NONE of you have a voice. Becasue none of you stick together, nor help eachother let alone share a process with eachother can make you better business people. Right now you all need to help eachother out, then once your future stablizes, you are all well profitable busnesses you can keeping secrets. But if there are succesful operations that know how to abate CCD, then you need to share that, if you know how to yield more honey, you need to share that, but more importantly you need to share your best business practices with eachother or else the US Beekeeper will die when there is no one to defend it.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I can tell you where you fall, Bees with CCD make ZERO honey. Reallity does not fit well into your profit calulator.

Don't think I know what I'm talking about? , you can check me out also....

Roland Diehnelt
Linden Apiary. Est. 1852
5th Gen Beekeeper.


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

Roland said:


> I can tell you where you fall, Bees with CCD make ZERO honey. Reallity does not fit well into your profit calulator.
> 
> Don't think I know what I'm talking about? , you can check me out also....
> 
> ...


Roland, you seem to imply that I am saying EVERY single year you will run into great success. I never implied that. Anyone knows in a business, that good years and bad years exist in harmony. The Api-industry has enjoyed enourmous gains from CCD. Trust me when I tell you that there are apiaries out there that have made well off it. Specifically those selling queens and package bees, who don't send thier bees to pollinate or mingle. 

I digress, what I was originally getting at, is that on an "Average" year, Adee could make 3-4M based on published figuers. If you guys dont want people to think you make all this great money, than publish your facts. If he has a year where he hits CCD and it affects him for several, then NO of course they won't make that. The question here posed, Is there money in the api-industry? YES! 

US Honey production 2009: 144M lbs
US Honey consumption 2009: 400M lbs

What can you deduce from that? WE IMPORT MORE THEN WE PRODUCE! There's room for growth and room to make money with that big of a gap.

Avg Value of Pollination in the US just for Almonds: 187M

What can you deduce from that? There is money to be made. Smart business men, with good business sense and practice can move in an make money.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

TSADAM13 said:


> US Honey production 2009: 144M lbs
> US Honey consumption 2009: 400M lbs
> 
> What can you deduce from that? WE IMPORT MORE THEN WE PRODUCE! There's room for growth and room to make money with that big of a gap.


Well, not exactly. You don't have enough information to know whether there's money to be made or not. If the Chinese are able to put a ton of honey on a US dock at a price below what it costs a US beekeeper to produce that same ton there's a problem with the US beekeeper turning a profit. And if you'll dig a little deeper, you'll find that the Chinese are able to do just that. 




> Avg Value of Pollination in the US just for Almonds: 187M
> 
> What can you deduce from that? There is money to be made. Smart business men, with good business sense and practice can move in an make money.


Again, we seem to be having a bit of trouble with financial and accounting terms. "Value" does not mean that pollination is profitable. It only means that growers paid that amount for the service. It says nothing about what the beekeeper netted after his/her expenses. I will guarantee you that there are former beekeepers who took hives to the almonds who are no longer in business. And there are beekeepers who didn't factor in $4.00/gallon diesel this year who will wish they had stayed home. 

I admire the enthusiasm, but I would suggest that there's a lot work yet to be done in understanding the fundamentals of those big numbers.


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

there are a few commercial beekeeping basic that you simply don't understand. #1. yes we all need to stick together and share info. but at the same time when you help others you risk cutting your own throat by: people moving into your territory, people making bigger yields than you, and people taking your customers. why would anyone want to help some else if it will hurt their business? surivival of the fittest i say. #2. we do not produce enough honey for the countries consumption, this is true. how are we going to increase our honey production??? do you realize that every year we lose millions of acres of bee pasture to modern farm practices. there are places in this country that never should have been farmed in the first place, but as long as the gov. keeps subsidizing farmers they are gonna plow beatiful bee territory to plant crops that can't even support themselves. also, the US simply does not have as many hives in production as in the past and certainly are not as strong. so where else are we going to get the honey?? import of course!! i am not a fan of importing but what else are we going to do? i know the chems found in the chinese honey are pretty serious issue because i am in the bee business but we hardly ever think about all the other foods that have been treated with pesticides, hericides, preservatives etc. and as far as me being out of business in 5-20 years, i wish i was a gambler because i would put money against it and make some quick cash. my family has been commercial beekeepers for over 108 years and know how to run bees. except for a few, most of the problems in this industry come from lack of commen sense and laziness brought on by rainbow chasin beeks.


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

Hi TSADAM13 here is the quote

""_you really hate one another. What my report is going to highlight, beyond Chinese Honey killing beekeepers int he US, is that when the beekeeper vanishes, it will be of his own doing. The rest of the world will take over food production, mainly outsourced to China because the US beekeepers didn't band together and lobby congress to fix it fast enough. Between diseases and foreign market competition, the end is coming for the US beekeeper because they won't help eachother, talk to eachother to improve operations and mainly don't care about eachother. Of course, on the outside you say you do, but really, you don't. You all stay in your own "hives" squabling with eachother across the fence and worrying about yourself, funny you didn't learn anything from the bee's you care for._"" 

OK. You basically are wrong on every point except the cheap chinese honey being harmful to our industry. Most beekeepers like to talk to most other beekeepers. We share intimate details of treatments, practices, theory, stock, suppliers, and new places to market products. China will not take over food production, the more prosperous they become the more food we sell them and the less honey they will need to sell here. CONGRESS WILL NEVER FIX ANY PROBLEM A BEEKEEPER HAS. NEVER EVER. 

Please tell the all the people how much money your government reports say is required to buy 80,000 bee hives and all the real estate and support equipment. I'll bet the interest cost on the loan will take up $2,000,000+ of your profits every year (or it can add to your losses). How much money do you think you could lose in a year. 

Finally, economics. The whole thing is supply and demand. You have posted that we could all make more money if we shared a magic cure for CCD. Not true. If I had a "cure" and shared it, everyone would have more bees reducing pollination price, and we would produce more honey, again reducing the price paid for honey. We lived like that for many years, healthy bees, lots of cheap honey and cheap pollination. 
quote
""_US Honey production 2009: 144M lbs
US Honey consumption 2009: 400M lbs

What can you deduce from that? WE IMPORT MORE THEN WE PRODUCE! There's room for growth and room to make money with that big of a gap.""
_

Again you have it backwards. Production has reduced because for many it doesn't pay to do it. 2009 was an all time record low. We are seeing better prices in 2010 and 2011 because supply is low. 

""_What can you deduce from that? There is money to be made. Smart business men, with good business sense and practice can move in an make money._""

OK wrong again. My Economics prof used to speak of companies that always make lots of money. Like the cable, phone, off shore drilling, the power company. Why???? Barriers to entry. It's hard to start up one of these companies. Same with bees. The best honey producing locations in the country already have bees sitting on them. Your new or expanding beekeeper will make less honey than the existing beekeepers. Guess what, the best almond growers to deal with in CA already have a beekeeper. You have to deal with the worst locations and difficult (cheap) people. The best places to winter bees, yep they already have bees. That's why some make money and some don't even if they have the same business skills.

If you won the lottery of $1,000,000 would you put it all down on new beekeeping gear and some 3# packages?? Would you advise others to do it?

Beesource is mostly entertainment for beekeepers. And most (99%) bee hives don't have an owner that has ever posted here. Don't try to learn too much on-line. Spend some time and get a good handle on the numbers and how they all work before you make make any conclusions. This industry is not like any other. Regular rules and ideas don't always fit what we do.


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

Barry Digman said:


> Well, not exactly.


Barry, The reason the information is "not out there" as you suggest, is because no one sticks together, however I disagree. I can go to 50 state institutions, 1 Federal and many other colleges and universities from coast to coast and get answers that are supposedly not there. I didn't infere that value equaled profit, I said the average worth (in other terms) is 187M. Now it could be plus or minus 20M. No one will ever know. I never said that if 187M was paid out pollination was the big hit and everyone is in the black. From the VERY BEGINING, I said Beekeeping as WHOLE can be profitable. That means Honey + Pollination + Package Bees + Queens and so on. If you expect to have your house paid off from pollination you will have a rudde awakining, agreed. My whole point, and my example is of a A VERY SUCCESFUL APIARY, not your average shmuck who has 10 hives to take over the world. When business is conducted with savy, and professionalism, it can make anyone wealthy from anything, even dirt. How many millionaires are there that started out selling JUNK. So I am sorry if I offended the "small" guys here who have 200 hives. But no, if you don't have 6k+ hives, your probably not going to buy that yacht you've always wanted. But start growing past that little 200 you got and you can get off the poverty line you pretend to be on. Country bumpkins that have done this for 100 years make it off experience, guys that have done it for two years fail because they didnt have business savvy to start with. The truth is in the middle.


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

gregstahlman said:


> there are a few commercial beekeeping basic that you simply don't understand.


Greg, FINALLY!!! Someone [able] to admit it. That's what I am talking about, that's what I am getting at with every recent post. SCREW everyone else! Don't talk to them, don't help them, cheat if you have to, lie about the other guys wife, I GET IT! I am in business and that's the point. TRUST ME! I know there is money to be made, there is money to made of everything from stuffed animals, to carbon emissions. 90% of the guys in stuffed animals go broke, barely pay the rent, or get by with a decent living. 10% however have yachts, take vacations to the moon, and have everything. WHY? Because they are good business men. My whole point from the start is that Richard Adee is GOOD business man, and just past that... VOLUME is everything. Do you think Dollar General is in busniness because everything is a buck? WHO is going to be rich off 1 buck? No ONE! But sell 50M dollars worth of 1$ items a year per store, and guess what, all the money you want. It takes savvy to get there and smarts to stay. So Greg, don't think I didn't know this from the very start. There's always business to be made. Don't worry guys here on BS, I am not out to start an apiary. I ain't out to "move in on you" I am here to research the PHYSCOLOGY of business, plus I have to write a paper for my term, but whatever. And this has been my target, get people to admit to a business man what the rest of the compition won't. I digres...

You will be here for past 30 years I bet, you have always raised bees, so that's what you will always do, good for you. But eventually Greg, big business moves in, it takes over, Walmart is the prime example. You can't avoid that fact in TODAYS world. Trust me, I am with you. I think there are folks that get into every business for the wrong reasons, but as you sir stated, only the strong survive. I know what my research backs up, it's in black and white. Not one single figure can be taken for truth, or even two for that matter. But if 100 bee keepers responded to a survey, I can already give you the figuers that you'd see in the end of it. 25% fail, 50% make it, 15% do very well, and 10% are filthy rich compared to the rest. Again, I can go anywhere to get the real scoop, you guys seem to think it's not really out there, but it is.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

But no, if you don't have 6k+ hives, your probably not going to buy that yacht you've always wanted. [/QUOTE]

So greg where do you keep your two yachts in the gulf? i might need to get a fishing trip in sometime lol.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I think TSADAM's posts have been met w/ Beekeeper Hostility. I commend him for sticking in here. He has gained an insight to the mentality of beekeepers and has reflected it back to us.

Yes, he is no expert and doesn't claim to be. But he has raised some questions that each of us would do well to ponder. Such as, can we work together for a better future in beekeeping or is it every man for himself?

I would like to see the report when it is finished. Maybe you could send it to my e-mail acct. in a pdf? If you posted it here it would get torn apart, I fear.

Good luck and I hope you get a good review from your professor.

To the rest of my beekeeping buddys: please break up your posts into paragraphs. I find the long ones hard to read when the sentences all run together. Thanks.


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

ryan said:


> Hi TSADAM13 here is the quote


Ryan, Well congress did do something for you in 2008, albeit more symbolic then valuable, they provided for Honey Crop insurance. I hear it sucks, but don't say never, ever.

secondly, how is the statement "We import more then we produce" backwards? Is that not the truth? Is that not stated in govt reports and states as well? I can link you to those if you'd like. I guarntee, I have researched PUBLISHED facts, so far I think I am the only one here providing facts, everyone else is going of here-say and not putting up refrences. If you think those facts are wrong, then you need to get with the govt and enlighten them. 

I can sit here all day and say all I want, but what truth is there if I can't point to facts that everyone else can see for themselves. Do you think that I am stupid enough to think that going out and buying 80K hives would be the easy task of just puttig down two mil? If that's the case to answer your last question, If it took just two million, I'd take that million I have, get a loan for the second million through investors and buy 80K hives and run all you out of town, then satisfy my debt in a year, too easy. Trust me, I would. But I know, it takes a number WAY past that to get there.

Barriers to entry exsist in a lot of markets, true. However, the best bee spots in the US already have bees on them huh? Ok fine. I didn't say I had to beat the guy on those spots to make money, your confusing yourself there. My whole point from the start, is that there is money to made! Did I say you'd be the next bill gates by becoming a bee keepeer? NOPE! I said from the start, if you were Richard Adee, which you are not, then you would make a lot of money, it's all in volume, 200 hives is not volume, start with 6-7K hives and I bet you dont' have to worry about money. I am not infering either that a newbie can buy 6K hives and beat everyone. Experience counts here.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I rarely let myself get drawn into debates like this especially with someone who as near as I can tell has never put on a bee veil. But I gotta say you have done an awfully good job in such a short time of assuming that you have learned more about this business than those who have spent a live time learning it. You can tap away on your keyboard downloading facts and figures and trying to extrapolate how this business works in 2011 dollars without a clue of the history of this industry. I am a third generation beekeeper who runs a lot more than 1,000 hives but the true story of our family or of Stahlmans or Diehnelt's or many many others isnt told on a balance sheet fresh off your HP printer. It is the many, many years of hard work that led up to this point. The bee yard that got washed down the creek, the honey crop that you had to sell at a loss because there was just no other option, the drought that seemed never to end or the special family event you had to miss because you had to feed those yards that maybe couldnt make it another few days. What you are trying to do is interesting but no good reporter becomes part of the story. You arent going to even begin to tell the whole story of this industry without walking in the shoes of those on the front lines who have lived this stuff for years. So go ahead and write your paper and tell of the greed and the ignorance but know that you arent really telling the story of this business at all your just giving a snapshot of how it all adds up on your spreadsheet today. 

Jim Lyon
35054 296th ave.
Herrick, SD
ph. 605-775-2976
cell# 605-929-4361


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Did i create a monster tread? 
Jim is exactly right. That is what I started this post to hear. There is "always a better year" 

Mike


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

You know what? You guys are right, there is no money in the bee business, everyone is broke and no one ever makes it, or if they do they are bound to fail sometime, except you blue bloods of course. been doing it all yer life so that's the way it's gonna be. I agree... I agree. I conceed. 

I have no skin in the game, nor do I intend to. It's only a research paper. I look at the numbers from a business standpoint, they are there, they exsist, but of course as you have all pointed out, it's a veil of lies, that have set you all up to look like it makes you money, but it doesnt. 

Jim, I never EVER set out to tell the story of the bee keeper, this ain't the tale of wyatt earp the real american cowby, this is the tale of business figuers in business class, "fresh off my HP printer" except my HP isn't HP. 

What the numbers also tell me is that the story of the bee keeper will be a tale of the past. Bee keeper numbers have been dwindiling every year, in steady decline. Honey and Pollination figuers are in a bubble and that one year when it bursts... there won't be money to be made. Not sure when it will burst, but it will. The numbers will IMPLODE the following year and the commercial bee keeping industry that makes money will cease to exsist in years after that. But if I understand all you guys that have been "doin it fer yers..." there already isn't any money in it. So have we already arrived then? It seems so according to Jim Lyon, Ryan, and some other folks. 

Good luck bee keepers and apicultirst, it seems I'm writing to your graves. You have all "Collapsed" it seems. Sorry for your loss. :ws


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Let me interject something into this. I am assuming since you are in college that you are just a little bit older than me (im 17). Most of these guys could be my dad or grandpa. Listen to your elders. They have walked this world much longer than you and me and they know that not everything happens on the books. It happens out in the bee yard. 

mike


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Beekeeping is different in every location, so when you say this fellow in Washington has a row of Vettes, how does that relate to me? 

Yes, in any industry, there will be a wide variance in profitabilty,and some will be highly successfull, but not when a third party is producing a fraudulant product at below cost, your bell curve gets thrown out of whack.

If this is a research paper, maybe it is time for you to do a complete job and get your hands dirty. Yes, that is a challenge, and an offering.


Roland Diehnelt
Linden Apiary, Est. 1852
N89 16672 Cleveland Ave,
Menomonee Falls, WIs.
262 255-6781


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

Hi again

If you wanted to know if I make money owning bees, then please ask the question. I make more money than I ever thought possible. So do lots of other beekeepers. Most think it is well earned and are not the least bit worried about any new beekeepers flooding the market. Lots of beekeepers have enough money to survive for several years of bad markets. You basically said so yourself.

Your right, margins in the bee business are great. High profit goes with high risk of loss. The fact that these profit margins have remained for several years is *proof that smart and able business men stay away from bees or are hesitant to expand rapidly*. 

Again you have the numbers correct about honey imports, re-read. Why you think a market dominated by cheap imports is ripe for a domestic honey takeover is beyond reason. 

Your interpretation of the numbers you are finding is what I take issue with. We do work together, lots. We share info. You should have seen the national convention this month in Galveston. Everything is on the table and out in the open. You are getting hassled here because you are claiming to know the end of an industry that you know just a little about. You know even less about our culture or attitude. This site is full of people helping people. 

There is no bubble here. Bubbles don't exist in a market that losses beekeepers every year. Pick one or the other. The prices are need to stay here or close to sustain the industry. 

$2,000,000 if you re-read is a rough estimate of the interest to service a loan. Not the loan amount or even a principal payment.

have fun


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## wabeeman (Dec 3, 2010)

gregstahlman said:


> do you realize that every year we lose millions of acres of bee pasture to modern farm practices. there are places in this country that never should have been farmed in the first place, but as long as the gov. keeps subsidizing farmers they are gonna plow beatiful bee territory to plant crops that can't even support themselves.


I know it's a bit off topic t: but I have to comment on the above statement. I realize different things are happening in different parts of the country so here's what's happened in WA in just my lifetime (middle age). The Kent valley used to be a farming mecca until all the farmers were pushed out by development, so they moved out. As the farmers moved out they cleared trees and scrub and transformed inhospitable areas into lush green farmland. Once accomplished the city slickers took note at how beautiful, quiet and peaceful is was and decided to move there. Except those dang farmers!!! Running their equipment at all hours of the day, creating dust and noise and OMG, what is that awful smell??? As the cities closed in the farmers starting looking elsewhere. Outlying rural communities, wanting the employment and revenue potential, started offering incentives (like no/low property taxes on properties that weren't generating taxes to begin with). The farmers realizing :ws decided to move their operation there. Yep, bee pasture got plowed under to accomplish that. What else were they supposed to do? I know one area in particular that was largely scrub when I was a kid. Today the area is full of agriculture of great diversity (including beekeeping). It is lush, green, beautiful and peaceful. The city slickers are starting to move there now. They're putting in subdivisions where the original farmland used to be forcing the farmers farther out. It's only a matter of time before the farmers are chased completely out of there as well. I've seen this happen not only in WA, but ID and OR as well. I can't vouch for other areas of the country.

I understand there is great controversy on agricultural subsidies. The huge megafarms certainly get more than they deserve, IMHO, while the small family farms, like my brother who wants to pass the family dairy along to my nephew, struggle to stay alive despite increased scrutiny and regulation by college educated, city slick bureaucrats. So the farmers move and plow under more bee pasture. BUT, they stay in business and they still produce among the safest food in the world. IMO that's infinitely more desirable than the alternative, which is importing ALL our agricultural products from foreign countries. And while I don't wholly support agricultural subsidies, I believe a certain amount is necessary to offset production costs so our American Farmers can stay competitive against foreign powers who pay their workforce about the same per month as our farmers, as mandated by law, pay per hour and are forced to follow environmental regulations that countries like China spit on.


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

ryan said:


> If you wanted to know if I make money owning bees, then please ask the question.


Ryan, again, from the very begining, my research paper will be on, The US Honey Market and the effects of Chinese Honey Laundering on the US beekeeps (in the coming decade(s) (not sure if I have enough data to show beyond that, we will see) and you hit the nail on the head, Sir. *"Why do you think a market dominated by cheap imports is ripe for a domestic honey takeover is beyond reason"* ... the bread and butter of my report. (this thread is a side topic, really has much less to do with the report) Do you know why I think that the US Beekeeper is going to go by the wayside? Because bee keepers don't rise together, stick up for them selves (mainly cause they are too worried about other "beeks" moving in on them) and pool thier money and lobby congress to put more pressure on this problem. Chinese honey will continue to flood markets all the while you are all bickering with eachother. One day you will wake up to the news papers saying that 100K beekeepers remain in the US, ALL HOBBYISTS. Because commercial operations can't make it operating in the red because honey is NO LONGER profitable, even combined with pollination. Which you all have said happens more often then not, so we'll assume were already getting there. 

I never claimed to know the market/industry. I have only claimed to have read the PUBLISHED reports, which according to ALL of you, are all wrong. Why are they wrong Ryan? please tell me how the USDA put ALL worng info... ? I know why, because you all stick in your closets and worry about the other guy "knowing your numbers" and because the bee market is so fragmented, how can Congess protect you with all you're own self intrests? Of course you claim that you help others. So, the best thing you can do to help is to report your businesses to the USDA, volunteer to submit more reliable data (because you pointed out it's all jacked up, what they do have) Do you get my point? Of course you don't as you have already pointed out here, I am wrong, so are the reports, so are other beekeepers... everyone is wrong. No bosy knows anything and the whole industry according to you is dang near a failure. 

I first off, won't be OK, with realying even more heavily on China, after they put us in the mess we will be in with Ag, that's a ways off, but when you and your business dies, because you allowed China to CONTINUE to flood US markets with your own product, therfore driving the stake in your own hearts because you DIDNT COME TOGETHER AND SAND UP AS ONE.... "How the US Bee Keeper Was Smoked"... I think that sounds better... :applause:


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

wabeeman said:


> I know it's a bit off topic t: but I have to comment on the above statement.


Right on! I agree, and it's somewhat off topic, but it makes sense to me because that is the consequence of my report. When our ag base goes away, so does one MAJOR piece of our soverignty and freedom as a nation. We then begin to rely on foreign countries like the BRIC countries to "help" us out and slide us a piece of bread. My point in this "debate" is that bee keeping is profitable (maybe not Millions) but comfortable for most (a few have Millions) but those few that have millions are shouldering the load when it comes to protecting thier industry. Beekeepers should band together, pool resources (not just money) and get in with farmers, you guys are symbiots. You need eachoter. And with the two industries going head first to Congress... it can have an impact. Why do you think among other GM was bailed out? Because they have the unions... :shhhh: it's just an idea.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Whew! Let's remember the forum rules about quoting entire posts in our replies:



> Don't quote back entire messages in your reply. While this board allows you to "quote" (i.e. include) messages when you reply to them, very rarely do you ever need to quote the entire message that was sent to you. Just quote the relevant portion and chop out the rest. If someone includes an image in their post, do not include it in your quote.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226194


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

Sorry, won't do it again, will go back and fix previous entries, thanks.


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

Hi TSADAM13 

Please re-read my post, again. I don't claim the USDA numbers are wrong. I claim you interpret the meaning incorrectly. I also say you argue conflicting points. ie there is so much money in bees that its going to draw in big wal-mart money types and then you claim there will be no commercial beekeepers in the US in just a few years. Can it really be both?

re-read it 

Thanks


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

In order to stay in this business you have to live and love it. very few commercial guys do it for the money. with the investment of a huge beekeeper it would make more sense to sell out and live off the interest. why
beat your head against the wall. It's because they love the job. years ago we had 1200 hives,tractor trailer,went to fla,hired help,etc. now I run 200-350 hives,work alone and make more money. the more hives you run the profit per hive decreases. the best money is in this class. the huge guys work on cash flow and the smaller guys work for what they can keep in thier pocket. It is easy on paper to make a million dollar year.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Do you know why I think that the US Beekeeper is going to go by the wayside? Because bee keepers don't rise together, stick up for them selves (mainly cause they are too worried about other "beeks" moving in on them) and pool thier money and lobby congress to put more pressure on this problem. _

The fact that you think Congress can fix beekeeping problems shows just how distorted your reality is. Congress has no ability to impact most of the problems in beekeeping. The few things they could affect, Congress is too corrupt or ignorant to actually do.

Just for curiousity sake, how many of us will it take to stick together, and how much money will it require to get Congress to fix these things?
1) Ban varroa from existence.
2) Ban hives from collapsing from CCD.
3) Order all land to become prime bee pasture, capable of producing 300+ pound crops.
4) Ban hives from being dinks.
5) Ban dud queens.
6) Require optimal weather for all bee activities.
7) and on and on...

I also hate to state the obvious that your idea of 'sticking together' is known as collusion and is illegal under various anti-trust laws.


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

Country Boy, 
I think you missed my point about Congress, it has nothing to do with the health and protection of your bees. You are correct, congress cannot help with that. They could present more funds for research, and what not but that's another story and problem.

It has everything to do with one half, or in some operations 1/3 or 1/4 of your revenue. Honey. When illegal honey is traded in America, it presents problems for you. When unscrupulous brokers, with moral ineptitude take Chinese honey and re-sell it, it hurts you. 

It hurts your profits, it hurts your accounts, your ability to put your kids through school. When I say "rise together and pool your resources" you can do that to hire lobbyists to go to congress and put pressure on them to draft tougher regulation on customs and declerations for foreign imports. 

You don't think it can happen? How many laws a year a passed by congress? How many of those laws are started in the minds of people like your self, or groups or industry? Don't you think the Oil Industry has lobbyists? Is that called collusion? No, you need to relook up that defintion, Sir. 

It's called pooling money to lobby. Richard Adee seems to be the only one looking out for this problem... I have read on here that you beeks say why should I put forth money when he's doing it? 

He makes great money, more then any single one of you can, and he appears to be shouldering the load. Why do you think he is doing that? Because he's big enough to see the real problems... I don't care if you make it man with your 200 hives, it won't hurt me a bit. But if the US bee keeper goes away, so does our freedom.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The economics of beekeeping prevent alot of what you suggest, I believe. We did have a Lobbyist in Washington. I forget his name right now, but he was a well known person in the Bee Industry and served us for many years until his death. 

Now we have Dave Hackenburg and some others who know how to presaent our cause to Congress and who have been successaful at time, getting funding for reasearch. The Amercian Beekeeping Federation and the American Honey Producers Association are the two National organizations that bring beekeepers together. Unfortunately they can't merge w/ each other. One split off from the other a number of years ago. Which makes speaking w/ one voice difficult.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Countryboy said:


> Congress has no ability to impact most of the problems in beekeeping. The few things they could affect, Congress is too corrupt or ignorant to actually do.


Of course Congress can't legislate away the health problems we have with our bees. One thing they did to help the beekeeping industry was to stop cheap Chinese honey from depressing our prices. You probably remember the price of honey a number of years ago was in the mid $.50 range. Packers were buying cheap Chinese and if we wanted a market we had to take what they gave us.

Then the Chloramphenocol contamination problem in Chinese honey came to light. Imports of Chinese honey stopped world wide..stopped in this country by our Gov't...and the price we received rose to $1.50.

Prices fell again soon after when the Chinese began dumping product on our market, but rose again to $1.50+ when their loophole scheme was stopped....by Congress.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

The last thing I want is the Government to get into bees. The last time then got into honey it cost my area 4 big comm. beekeepers, and it took 8 years to fix that mess. I thing research is great and I think putting money into that is fine, but throwing money at lobbiest not the greatest idea.


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

I really wish you had drove down to Galveston and heard all this in person,

Michael j Coursey Google his name, you'll find his law firm.

Mike has been the guy who handles the anti dumping cases in the past. When lots and lots of beekeepers donated lots of money. Many beeks donate every year. Some are forced to give because of where they sell their honey. Mike is paid hundreds of thousands of dollars every year. Mr. Adee is very generous with his money but even more so with his time. He is not the only one. Lots of work is done by many every year. 

The ABF has people they fund full time to keep beeks interest represented in in D.C. Show up to a ABF meeting and talk to Francis Boyd about his work in D.C. lobbying for beeks. Google Francis Boyd American Beekeeping Federation, see what pops up. 

You wont find it on the web how many leaders, supported by money from the rank and file, spend untold time and money going to D.C. and state houses to fix problems. Like pesticide use and standard of identity for honey.

I assume you know this industry has survived really cheap (less that the $.52 your worried about) chinese honey dumping several times. 

Maybe I'll buy you a plane ticket to one of the conventions next year. You don't need to trust my word. Come and get a real feel for what is going on.

ryan


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_you can do that to hire lobbyists to go to congress and put pressure on them to draft tougher regulation on customs and declerations for foreign imports.

You don't think it can happen? _

I think it is known as throwing good money after bad.

_How many laws a year a passed by congress? How many of those laws are started in the minds of people like your self, or groups or industry? _

How many of those laws have any real value? The bulk of the new laws cater to special interest groups (aka individuals, groups, or corporations), at the expense of hurting everyone else. That's not what I want.

_He makes great money, more then any single one of you can,_

Oh really? How much does he make? How much can anyone else? Or are you saying that he makes more than anyone else can because he is paying lobbyists? (So much for a free market.)

_But if the US bee keeper goes away, so does our freedom._ 

Our freedom has nothing to do with Americans keeping bees.

_Of course Congress can't legislate away the health problems we have with our bees. One thing they did to help the beekeeping industry was to stop cheap Chinese honey from depressing our prices. _

I am a firm believer that nations have borders for a reason. I am a firm believer in import tariffs and duties on foreign products also. I have no confidence in my corrupt government doing the right thing until they have exhausted every other option.

A far better solution than lobbying is educating the public about the honey they buy. There is a reason people pay me $4.75 for a 12 ounce bear when they can buy a bear in a big box store for $2.00.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Countryboy said:


> There is a reason people pay me $4.75 for a 12 ounce bear when they can buy a bear in a big box store for $2.00.


It may have something to do w/ the fact that whatever honey they buy, they are actually going to ingest it. Unlike leadbased painted toys and tainted sheetrock. China has already cornered the market on poor quality products. Once they decide they want to sell us quality, then were sunk.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Mark, can China really do that???:scratch:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Japan went from low quality products to high quality products... and did them very well.


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## TSADAM13 (Jan 19, 2011)

I doubt that we will ever see "quality" chinese products, at rates they are charging now anyways, once China straightens up and starts doing that, they will want more money for thier services. Once that happens, the world will find the next country that is willing to sell it's people cheaply to prosper. I'm thinking countries in Mid and West Africa to be the next "cheap labor pool"


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The Honey Householder said:


> Mark, can China really do that???:scratch:


Sure, why not? If it is in their best interest. But maybe it isn't. After all, they need us to buy what they produce and if they were the solew supplier of all our goods then that might be bad for the rest of the world. I don't know.

TSADAM, China is heavily invested in many parts of the African Continent.


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

Hi TSADAM13

I feel like we took the long way around. But it looks like your point was that one person shoulders the weight of doing what is needed in D.C. for our industry. How much money has the industry spent in the past 20 years or so? How much came from the biggest contributor. I'm a big fan of the big guy. I'd like to be able to figure out How much more money will I need to contribute to get on pace with the leader? 

Ryan.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

China does make some high quality stuff. We just see the cheap Chinese junk because it is cheap. Their quality stuff is often a comparable price to our quality stuff - they may have cheap labor, but they have to add the cost of bringing it over here.

There are always going to be crooks who will try to find a shortcut to make a buck, whether it is diluting honey with syrup or whatnot. You'll NEVER stop them because there are customers who are always looking for a cheaper priced product, and they don't care about reduced quality. When the market demands junk, someone will find a way to fill the need.

Educate the customers. Offer them a quality product at a fair price. Your honey will sell itself, even when it is marketed right beside the guy who is catering to the customers who want cheap junk. Let the scumbags cater to the scumbags, and don't worry about them. I want to cater to the high quality folks, by offering them a high quality product.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

A friend of mine just got back from China, went to visit a female friend. His report was that "if we think what they send us is junk, you should see what keep for themselves. It is much worse. They only send the best of the best here".

Will they get better? yes. Will they follow the up-down path of Japan? MAybe.. Will the "Funny honey " stop? Mostly, Wisconsin is working on it's definition , should be solid by the end of the year? WIll there be a market for REAL PURE, no hard chemicals honey? I am betting my livelyhood on it!! (SEE, back on topic)

Roland
Linden Apiary, Est, 1852


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Well, back to the question. After 39 years of beekeeping ,what else what I do??? I have been doing one thing and one thing well since I was 10 years old. And out the ripe "old" age of 49---who would hire me to do anything else?? It has been an interesting read all these threads. There are a lot more people making a lot more money than I in the business and probably a lot smarter also. But then I am in an economic backwater called Alabama. We did pollenate in California for four years. One year made good money and got good bees back. The second year the broker screwed us and several others also. The third year, with a different broker, made good money. The forth year with the same broker, we broke even but lost bees--the start of CCD. I have sent bees into Wisconsin's cranberry bogs, we made some money and got bees back in time to place on cotton. WE came to the determination that operation is about one thousand miles too far to the east to be effective in Cali. The regulations are also very tough on South Eastern Beekeepers---Fireant. So why stay in business,--it is a way of life!!!! TK, Alabama Bee Company, sorry no packages, only nucs. Too many hive beetles in Alabama to shake packages any more.


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## boukers (Aug 4, 2010)

perhapes a different approach?? 
In my case just starting out and hoping to start a sideline; This thread made me concider "why get in?"
listining to some, I'm scared to even bother (not to discredit a view point). As a whole, I'm deeply encouraged with some of your comments and draw my own conclusions;
-farming gets in your blood, the aspect of working hard with care and love and determination, the aspect of hopes for a better next year that sometimes turns into reality is like a drug if farming gets in your blood!!
-theirs something deeply organic and natural about farming and beekeeping that connects one with the earth or God
-there's a security in learning and knowing the skill, One guy mentioned honey is a great bartering product. Reminds me of talking with an old beek in my club, said during the war in italy it was the 20 bee hives he had hidden that kept bread on the table.... you never know what the future brings!!!
-also an aspect to one day teach your kids all the things I value about it and even posible survive from it, could one day be invaluable
-posibly even making a profit from it

-setting all aside, for me; if you concider the complexety of the colonie, concider the care and sacrifice of every member and making it posible to understand the honey bee enough to use there natural skills to our benifit, Concidering just this I say....wow, thats amazing! 

To summerize, perhapes I'm wrong on this conclusion; if anyone, beekeeper or not only looks at the business point of veiw, without concidering my last statement, I can't see a bee business working out. It takes Love/work/commitment which I believe comes before Dollar signs! and perhapes it's good to reflect on those basics sometimes. 
thanks guys, a very interesting read....bouks


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Bouks, it is the FREEDOM to run your business your way, not the dollar signs that get in your blood. I would have quit along time ago, if it were dollars only.TK


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