# bee plantings with cover crops



## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

I'm 'fairly' sure that thistle in about impossible to control without some chemical and mechanical eradication once it gets well established. If my memory serves me (don't count on it) I remember seeing a slide of a thistle field that ruined a bush hog blade when they went in to try and cut it because it had gotten to established. You might be able to try goats?????

I plan to try and establish some small wildflower meadows this spring.
This source has bulk seeds that you could use for an acre pretty reasonably. Some watering may be required to get it established, but once they get going, you should be good for a long time.
http://www.americanmeadows.com/WildflowerSeeds.aspx


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

OK, $290 plus shipping might be a bit steep for an acre, but maybe buy less and mix it with a pasture w/clover mix.


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## randydrivesabus (Apr 27, 2006)

is this canadian thistle? the bees go for it in a big way but it is very invasive and difficult to eradicate. if you are like me and don't use chemicals you have to get rid of it mechanically. plowing and then frequent disking throught the whole growing season might work.


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

For seeds, check your local feed store. (if you are rural enough to have one). I was looking for buckwheat seed, and (I can not remember the numbers now) the local price was a tiny fraction of the best on-line price+shipping.


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

*seeds*

anything you could sow and not work that would smother thistle(or just about anything)would in itself be so invasive as to be more of a problem than a cure. sorry, but as has been widely rumored, there really is no Free Lunch


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## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

I may be mistaken but I think if you take some lime (2-3ton per acre) to raise the Ph of the soil it should help with the thistle. I know it will with briars and such and I think thistle too! Lime is just a natural occuring element (limestone) and is fairly in inexpensive. If that will work you could also mix some clover or whatever in with it when applying. This is probably best done right before the last of the frost in the ground is gone. Again double check with your local ag co-op and have a soil test done to determine the Ph and I believe this will work.


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Keeping it mowed so that the thistle can't bloom and then covering in black plastic, probably in sections, will kill everything under the plastic including seed. I would think you could clear an acre easily enough in one season.


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## ss91 (Jul 12, 2006)

We have Canadian thistle problems here on our farms in Washington. As far as eradicating it, it is at least seven year process at best as some of the thistle seed will lay dormant for this period and can remain viable for twenty years. There is a soil fumigant you can have applied to the soil that wipes it out pretty effectively. As far as discing goes everytime you cut into the roots of Canadian Thistle it is like pruning it and you will have three shoots come from the cut. You need to take care not to let it flower and produce seeds anymore and the best product for control that kills it really well is Stinger. There is some pretty good info here http://www.rec.udel.edu/weed_sci/FactSheets/WF3-CT_06.pdf

Good luck


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## Carson (Jul 6, 2007)

Im a farmhand and we have a big problem with thisiles! Don't ever bush hog them! that will spread them all over the place and you will have more!! You can dig them up  Only way we can kill them is with chemicals. We use a grazon thats 100$ a gallon + some other stuff we have to mix to get the chemical to stay on the weeds. Not ever one can buy grazon, They make you go to a school for a day befor you can buy it. We will use 20 gallons a year if not more! But one good thing about grazon! it will kill any thing you spay it on! Ceader trees pine trees you name it its dead!

If you do spray it might take 2 or 3 years to get ever one. We are working on are 4th year trying to clear them out. But if some one else has them down the road your going to have them no matter what you do!

I wish you luck!! your going to need it LOL


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## cow pollinater (Dec 5, 2007)

That stuff is about as invasive as it gets. My advice is to handle it now as every year it will seed exponentially. 
If you don't want to spray, you might try a flame weeder. If you have time, you can simply cut the heads off before it goes to seed and eventually it will die out. The key is to keep it from going to seed. 
If you have to spray, try a broadleaf spray first as it won't kill most of your benificial stuff. You could also get a good stand of something else like alfalfa going and then apply a pre-emergent to keep new seeds from germinating. 
Good luck


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## Walliebee (Nov 17, 2006)

I once managed a certified organic farm with a thistle problem. First off, don't wait another year to start a control program. As you have heard for other comments here, these are nasty and spread quickly. 

Your idea of overseeding will need to be done after an initial eradication program. 

Like beekeeping these days, there is nothing passive about it. You will need to set up a program, monitor, and treat to get control.

We used a combination of hand digging, mowing, flaming, and acetic /citric acid sprays. 

We hand dug individual plants that were growing away from the main infestation, being careful to get all the roots. This is easy to do when the ground is soft and the plants are in the rosette stage.

We mowed the main areas short so we could easily see the plants as they reemerged. As new growth was produced, we would destroy it by mowing, or flaming if it was too wet in the field. This process caused the plant to keep having to make new growth and use extra carbohydrates that are stored in the roots which weakens the plants.

Once summer arrived with warm/hot and drier weather we used the acetic /citric acid in a backpack sprayer to further weaken and kill the plants. We mowed as needed to see the more aggressive spots.

We had control in two years. 

Here are premixed products:

http://www.greenergyinc.com/
http://www.milkyspore.com/burnout.htm

You can also make your own. Keep your acids in the 7% range and add liqiud soap as a spreader-sticker. Wear protection when spraying.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>They make you go to a school . . .
>it will kill any thing you spay it on! . . .

GRAZON . . . the latest "new" mite treatment


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Yeah, thistles are tough. 5 or 6 acres, hand-pulling will never cut it but maybe heading the blossoms before they seed will help though it's WORK. Bizzybees had my best idea, mow aggressively to keep them from establishing more and from going to seed, but you'll still need to get medieval on their sorry butts either with plastic or bite the bullet and glyphosphate (Roundup) the area and start fresh. As little as I like chemical-first approaches, if used properly a little Roundup can be a life-saver.

Locally-oriented perennial mixes cut with some mints, hyssop, or the like would be my vote.


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## panubee (Nov 16, 2007)

*Organic Control*

Mike,

If you wanted to use organic means, you could keep it over seeded with Buckwheat during the summer and rye for spring and fall. It would require a lot of planting, letting it grow to almost seed, cutting, working into the soil, starting over again. The buckwheat could provide a honey crop. You might be able to substitute canola for the rye to get a honey pollen crop as well.

It could take you a couple years to clear out with organic methods.

Mike


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The only way your going to get rid of that thistle is to moe it, Thistles hate being moed. It works better than the chemicals you can put on them, and a heck of alot cheaper. 

The best time of year to moe then would be right at the time of full bloom. They put soo much into flowers, exausting the roots, that a moe will severly compermise the plant. It will allow grasses to establish,and eventually you will have your grass pasture back. And with grass pastures, you can throw in some sweet clover and start the clover, grass cycle.

Anyhow, even though those thistles give off nectar, your neighbours are probably cursing your name as they watch them seed down the country side


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## Beorn (Apr 15, 2007)

bjorn,

I have a fairly small thistle problem on my old fields. I read in on organic magazine somewhere ( I wish I could remember where to give the proper people credit) that it is about a three year process if you want to avoid chemicals. It actually helps the soil by just leaving the shoots there.

The key is to not let it flower. Just go out and chop it down when it's about to bloom. You'll need to chop the same plant several times a seasons. I'm going into my second summer starting this method and I can say I ahd much less thistle in just one year. 

It also works for milkweed. My wife goes out and pulls off all the pods before they burst. She's pretty motivated since it's poisonous to the goats.


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## Mabe (Mar 22, 2005)

All of the above methods will probably work in time, but we achieve pretty good control by using Roundup _spring_ and _fall _in a backpack sprayer. We do this with Reed Canary Grass and Buckthorn as well.

A few of hints that we use when we teach classes on invasives control:

1. Put a few drops of blue pond dye in your tank so you know where you've sprayed.
2. Set your sprayer nozzle for a droplet size that won't drift. The blue dye helps.
3. Don't spray if you can help it on windy days. If you have to, use a big droplet size.
4. If you need to protect other plantings, tape an inverted cut out milk jug over your sprayer nozzle to contain the spray to a small area.

Mabe


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

How about a photo to identify the wee, weeds.

The BucKwheat you are talking about is for a green manure crop which is ok. But, If you want something for the bees consider the clovers. Consult with your local growers 1st. Get to know some of the retired or older sages in the area.
You can plant a cover crop of say for example Red clover and let the beees forage on it until the weeds get up to size and then till the area. Plant with a second cover crop for example sun flowers and repeat. 
If you can use Round Up add ammomium sulfate to it for a good knock down as the material will be carried to the roots.
Contact me if you want.
I killed 1/2 of an acre of Johnson grass with one application using a hand sprayer.
Good luck
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


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## Durandal (Sep 5, 2007)

Bjorn

Nothing is going to get rid of those thistles other than chemicals or mechanical. It all needs to be done before it goes to seed.

My suggestion would be to broadcast over seed in the spring and then mow the how thing....or run disks over it set about 1/4". I've done this for rebuilding my pastures and it works great.

Mechanical mowing initially before weeds go t seeds helps out immensely though. When you disk, regardless of how shallow you may up turn new weeds to germinate.

You could through with a wick applicator and contact each individual plant you want to get rid of, or run a a wick boom with herbicide on it set at a level above he crop you want to keep but high enough to kill out johnson grass, horse weeds, and thistles, which will all be running higher than your cover crop.

Whatever method you choose, you want to prep early spring and get seed down or wait till autumn.

Either way, make sure this is something you want to invest in and make sure its something that the bees will take advantage of.

I'd consider a clover, but right now, with as weird as our weather has been (I'm in Southern Ohio) I am strongly considering seeding dandelions in as a cover crop in a couple areas. Its the only thing blooming right now and I have seen bees on them.

But there are a lot of issues that goes with that as well.

Clover is probably the safest bet. There are probably a have dozen _trifoils_ that would be good to plant, both as a cash crop, if you wanted to bale it, and for the bees.

You will want to mow though, you want that seed and the sprout to see light and not have too much competition. If you do not mow, you'll see a little growth but not much.

If you have any questions throw them out. I may be new to bees but I board horses and bale lots of hay. Used to be up to about 15 thousand bales a year but we lost the contract on a neighbors property when ownership changed. One of the reasons why I want to get into bees. Lots of clover hay fields around here and no one uses insecticides.


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

Hey Bjorn...
I'm not a farmer...but I would check into that heavy lime application idea, that's maybe workable...

I never had any thistle on my place till I topped dressed goat manure...Maybe goat's will eat them....and then nicely replant them for you with a little fertilizer too...

I didn't want to spray any of that CRAP all over either.
I watch the TV show "AgPhd." on the RFD channel whenever I'm in the mood for a terror movie. Pretty scarry.

What did work for me is, I made a deal with my neighbor to keep his beefers on my pasture (which I fence), and brush hogging everything 5 or 6 times a year (which I do with his equipment) and this seems to be working pretty well. 

Plus, I get a half of beef. I think I get shorted on that part a little, but that's O.K.

Someday I'm going to reseed some more clover, but grazing really has improved what was already there.

I suppose that plan doesn't dovetail nicely with a queen rearing operation...

But you did say you didn't want to mow. Maybe a good sized Cat would work? (Think dozer). 

How 'bout Basswood or Black locust... either of those should choke them thistle out.

Good luck
Mark


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Thanks everyone for the replies.

Mark, Yeah that was the hope anyways. Something without continuous mowing or tilling. We kind of wanted the acreage to go back to some natural state, but it seems due to the past field manipulation, that the thistle just got a leg up on the other plants and is the dominate weed. We really didn't want to mow however due to the bee forage and the other native plants that are also present.

I looked for pictures, and it seem that we have several several types of thistle. I found Muck, Canadian, and Milk thistle as photos matching close to some of what we got.

At this point, I think a long term idea of cutting the individual plants prior to flowering may be something to consider. I don't care if some thistle grows as it slowly is replaced with other plantings as the field continues to mature and grow on its own.

But as someone mentioned, there are other farmers in the area, and one did make a comment about having a sea of thistle growing in the area.


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## sagittarius (Feb 17, 2004)

The key to mowing for weed control is timing. You want to mow the target weeds just as they start to flower, before seeds are produced. 

The field could also be mowed in sections, stagared, so some native flowering plants could survive. Thus there would always be something blooming. 

The other alternative is spot spraying thistles with 2-4D by hand.


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## MGBee (May 25, 2004)

Bjorn:

Like someone else said-- buckwheat if you want a honey crop. Planted thickly, Buckwheat will shade about anything else. out.
The best shade crop, but not a nectar producer, is sorghum/sudan grass. 

Either crop plowed down/replanted/plowed down etc. is also good soilbuilding cover.

Regards,
Miles


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

On our family farm it was always an annual event to go out with the sharpshooters and dig them up. It's not so bad when you have eight to ten people going after them, just be sure to harvest any maturing pods as they can still finish blooming after being dug if they are far enough along. This is also true if spraying them too late. We have them under control and now when we see a purple flower in the pasture it's 'get the shovel!'

Only having an acre of them I would keep it mowed early and often and then keep an eye for stragglers further away and keep them dug up.

There is hope. A few years ago the state introduced a weevil that lays it's eggs in the flower pod. The eggs hatch and the larva eat the heart of the flower destroying the seed. It still blooms but with no seed, just silk. It is easy to tell if you have the weevil in the head, just cut the pod in two with a knife and the inside will be brown and there will be a couple of larva happily eating the inside.

Your state may have the program, contact the state ag department to find out. If all else fails contact my state.



The flower head weevil, Rhinocyllus conicus, was released by the Canadian Ministry of Agriculture into Canada in the late 1960s and then by the U.S. Department of Agriculture into Virginia, Nebraska, Montana, California and other states. The idea was to control invasive weeds, especially Eurasian musk thistle, though R. conicus was known to feed on native rangeland thistles, too.




http://www.oznet.k-state.edu/entomology/extension/KIN/Kin_2007/kin-20/07ksnew20.htm

More on Musk Thistle Weevils 
In responding to various requests for online sources of weevils for musk thistle control, we have discovered than neither species is now permitted by USDA APHIS for shipment across state lines within the USA due to observations of non-target impacts on native thistle species. However, it is still permissible to collect and redistribute these insects within state borders. 

We have identified a source of these weevils in central Kansas and individuals interested in obtaining some for release in the spring of 2008 should contact J.P. Michaud at [email protected]. Since we cannot predict the numbers that will available (and the minimum number for release per site is around 80 of each species), units will be distributed on a first come, first serve basis.

J.P. Michaud


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## Black Creek (May 19, 2006)

*No Thistle Here*

well, maybe 1 or 2...... Definitely not a thistle problem. 

What i have is a field thats been unused for years with just an occasional (once every 3 yrs)bushhogging. It's grown up chest high in some areas with all sorts of wild plants. There's only a very small percetage that have any flowers to speak of.

I'm going to bushhog it, then root plow it, then disc it and then seed it. I want to go through a couple cycles of cover crops to eliminate competition before trying to use the field for anything else. What cover crops can i use that will flower during their 1st season that the bees will like? I know i can use buckwheat but i'm looking for some alternatives. 

I know the clovers will work, but they generally wont start blooming until the following year.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

You could rotate buckwheat, crimson clover, rye/hairy vetch, rape, huban clover...


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## Black Creek (May 19, 2006)

i was going to put in buckwheat 1st then cut and disc it in, but i did a smaller test plot last year and the buckwheat never took off on the 2nd planting. i think it was too dry for it, so i was looking for something a bit more hardy. buckwheat seems like it needs lots of water. i like the idea of rye with vetch, but i cant seem to find anyone that sells vetch seed here. I dont like the idea of mail ordering a couple hundred pounds of it either because of shipping costs. i was just hoping to find something i hadnt thought of yet.


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## Black Creek (May 19, 2006)

*cowpeas?*

what about cowpeas? do bees like the flowers on those?


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## Durandal (Sep 5, 2007)

To be honest, I'd focus on first A) Controlling the field and then B) putting in a Bee friendly forage source.

Your best cover crop and contender for weed suppression is going to be rye. Rye is not (I think) a good source for bees.

Take two years and do it right. 

As to the crop you'd plant...make it a combo that has a variety of blooming covers that last from early spring to late fall...maybe even into the winter.

Do not be scared of dandelions either. If you get a thaw in the middle of January and its shoots into the 60s, they'll bloom.

Just mix in a couple ounces or two into a multi plant seed mix. Clover, alf-alfa, some wild flower. Whatever you do, avoid a single mono-crop.


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## Black Creek (May 19, 2006)

Yeah, i was thinking just plant rye in the entire field but i was really hoping to provide the bees with something while i was getting the field under control. I plan on planting some crops back there hopefully starting next year. 

I also bow hunt and have a tree stand on the edge of the field. My hives are about 30yds from the stand. It's pretty cool watching deer sniff at them in the early morning. I'm sure they can smell the wax and honey. 

anyway.... what i'm ultimately trying to have is a cover crop that will help knock back the competing vegetation, provide some flowers for the bees and browse for the deer. That's why i was thinking about the cowpeas... i just dont know how much the bees will use them. It's a 5 acre or so field. I'll be using about half of it for crops, the rest will end up a managed naturalized area. there's some small persimmon trees that i'm going to work around. I just bush hogged it this morning and i left a couple patches of wild blackberries. they're really thick in a few places.

I'm pretty sure i'll start with buckwheat. I've seen how well that stuff can crowd out other plants.


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## Black Creek (May 19, 2006)

Yeah, i was thinking just plant rye in the entire field but i was really hoping to provide the bees with something while i was getting the field under control. I plan on planting some crops back there hopefully starting next year. 

I also bow hunt and have a tree stand on the edge of the field. My hives are about 30yds from the stand. It's pretty cool watching deer sniff at them in the early morning. I'm sure they can smell the wax and honey. 

anyway.... what i'm ultimately trying to have is a cover crop that will help knock back the competing vegetation, provide some flowers for the bees and browse for the deer. That's why i was thinking about the cowpeas... i just dont know how much the bees will use them. It's a 5 acre or so field. I'll be using about half of it for crops, the rest will end up a managed naturalized area. there's some small persimmon trees that i'm going to work around. I just bush hogged it this morning and i left a couple patches of wild blackberries. they're really thick in a few places.

I'm pretty sure i'll start with buckwheat. I've seen how well that stuff can crowd out other plants.


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## memcnult (Apr 30, 2007)

We've been having a lot of fun thinking about the bees as we plan our (urban-ish) landscaping. The two seed mixes we're using a lot of, especially in areas where we're trying to shade out weeds & make low maintenance, is Good Bug Blend and Herbal Lawn Mix (which isn't specific for bees/insects, but I know how much they love creeping thyme, which a big part of this mix).

We've also planted a lot of sage, and Bee's Friend which supposedly "strongly attracts bees". We'll see -- all of this has just gone down in seed in the last few weeks, so nothing is blooming yet. I'll report back once it does.


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## Roni (Mar 11, 2008)

Goats love thistle plants. You could cross fence in that area and put in some meat goats to eat down the thistles. They even have electric netting fence that is moveable you can use to rotate the goats where you want them. If it were me, I put meat goats in there now and then in the late summer through early spring pasture hogs through it. The hogs love to dig into the soil and would eat up a lot of the roots. They would fertilize it for you too. After all the animals have gone through it then you could plant clovers and buckwheat and other bee plants.


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## Zane (Mar 28, 2008)

*Cover crops*

Around here we get $fined$ by the county for having thistles!!!alot$$$ I just cut them down when I see them. Roundup or 2-4-d works as a spot spray and shouldn't bee bad for the bee's(maybe dont spray while in bloom). I planted Rye and Buckweat last fall originally as a manure plot(I intended to till it in this spring for the added N and mulch) but then ordered me some bee's. The rye and buckweat plants are the greenest things out there right now. So I now plan on keeping it growing. Its real cheap seed(around $15.00 a 50lb bag). I also planted white clover a month ago over the(hopefully)last snow. I have been told by a few folks that "red" clover nector can't bee reached by the honey bee's tongues(or whatever they are called)but bumblebee's can get it. BUT the white clover isn't as drought tolerant. Clover is fairly expensive ($4.00 a pound or so), but you dont need alot to cover a big area after a few years of growth(it fills in nice). Alfalfa I am told works well thrown out too. I'll try buckweat again next fall and more clover here in the spring. Its simple to do and fairly cheap.
Bullseye Bill interesting facts on the weevil thx
Zane


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