# Is This EFB?



## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

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Looks like EFB, follow this thread http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-Foulbrood-in-Baits-hives&p=807337#post807337


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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lol What luck I have been keeping bees for 2 months and I have it in both of my yards. Called the bee inspector last week about this and was told to wait a week and if it was still happening to give him a call...


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

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Waiting could be the death of the hives, you need to consider treating right away or give them up. These guys on here will give you better info. How many frames are infected? Are they near pine trees?


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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How sure are you that is EFB?


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

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I would research it allot more before doing anything drastic, try this link https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/index.cfm?pageid=89
Waiting to treat would not be a option for me, I would want to start treating ASAP. Mann Lake sells Terrimycin patties, I would get them heading to your door as soon as I am sure.
This is not something you want to mess around with. Cant be chilled brood in your area this time of year, it is not chalk brood but those black caps look different then anything I have seen, may just more advanced then I have seen. How many frames are infected?


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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About 100 yards from large pines. Back up to forest. 

Not sure I closed up the hive when I found this to prevent and possible spread as I had just gone through the other hive sitting right beside it.


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

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Change the title of this thread to get more real beeks to look at the photos and tell you what it is. Don't listen to us newbies and the wanna bees in here. Guys that have lived through this stuff for real can give you the best info and course of action, better then waiting for your bee inspector to take a look. Good luck, hope you can save them!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

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...looks like EFB (snotbrood). Personally, if i were going to try and treat this hive, I would start with feeding them...getting some extra feed moving through the system (hive) might well clear things up. Personally, I would not use antibiotics...but even if I had that on the table, I would start with feeding and see what happens.

deknow


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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@ctgolfer I tried to change the title with no luck so I just made a new thread

@Deknow I have pollen patties or can put sugar water internal feeder, which should I feed? This appears to be in a few of the hives I started. 

How long does it take for this to develop? Safe to assume my other hive may have it as well since I caught them robbing? Neighbors hives about .5 miles away?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

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...1:1 sugar syrup (or honey if you have honey suitable for feeding). Generally EFB is a stress disease. How have you been managing your colonies? If you've been spreading the brood too thin (placing empty frames between frames of brood), that could be a contributing factor.
With that said, some beekeepers have been reporting more stubborn EFB in the last few years.

deknow


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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deknow said:


> ...1:1 sugar syrup (or honey if you have honey suitable for feeding). Generally EFB is a stress disease. How have you been managing your colonies? If you've been spreading the brood too thin (placing empty frames between frames of brood), that could be a contributing factor.
> With that said, some beekeepers have been reporting more stubborn EFB in the last few years.
> 
> deknow


These hives came to me as nucs this spring so I have not moved anything(brood or honey) in the hives.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

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If you know where the nucs come from (ultimately, not a local broker), you could try to find out what the treatment regimen is in that operation. If antibiotics are routinely used, you may be stuck needing to use them in order to keep these bees alive. Did anyone else in your area get nucs from the same source? Are they having similar problems?

deknow


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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I know they had several hundred nucs if not a 1000 come in from the same source. I do know the source and will shoot them an email to see if they received any antibiotics. My understanding is these were survivor stock, I took that to mean they were treatment free. That said I found no mites and 1 hive beetle in 7 nucs that were produced in GA.

I really have no desire to treat constantly, would it be worth trying a single round of treatments to see if that works?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

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First, I would ask around and see if anyone is having the same problem with bees from the same source. Normally I'd also suggest requeening (it provides a break in the brood cycle, and it could be better stock)...but if you've purchased "survivor stock", then you are wanting the qualities of that queen (hopefully acute susceptibility to EHB isn't one of them).
Personally, I would not medicate (which would be OTC), but I might try shaking them down onto new equipment and feed like mad. You will loose the brood and comb, but you might save the bees. Antibiotics don't just affect the "bad" bacteria, but also much of the "good".

deknow


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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I have two bee yards were I keep bees. My home and my brothers vacation house which is a 45 minute drive. My brother bought from the same source two weeks later than me and had this develop about 1 week ago in one of his hives. That is when I first contacted the inspector.

I sanitized my suite and left my hive tool there to prevent any spread. The only thing they have in common is the source, my smoker and me. 

Will the hives that started to rob the infected hive likely become infected?


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

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Check this U of Georgia video and you should have a good idea how to proceed, EFB is @ 5:30:


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

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the problem is likely largely in the comb. robbing bees might become infected, but I don't think you would ever even see a symptom in an otherwise strong hive doing some robbing....but the faster you remove the diseased comb/brood, the less exposure other bees will have.

given your situation, I would shake down onto new foundation (or foundationless)...just keep the hive in the exact same spot. Feed if you have to. You could also try caging the queen for a couple of weeks (and perhaps remove all open brood), but I would do the shakedown...

deknow

deknow


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

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Of course a shakedown is also stressful. My first case of EFB was in a shakedown.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

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Yes it is stressful (as is almost anything that falls under "beekeeping"). It is what I would do if I didn't think it would clear up on its own (hard to have an opinion on that based on a few photos). Of course, antibiotic treatment is also stressful. I'd destroy the hive before I treated with OTC...but that's me. I know some commercial beekeepers who have not used antibiotics in many years who have had EFB infections in the last few years that they felt required treatment...these are folks that thought they were done with antibiotics for good.

deknow


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

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That's why I opted to terminate the hive. Bees and comb can be replaced. At least one doesn't have to also lose the woodenware.


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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Thanks for all the help!! I will let you guys know how it works out.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

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From Penn State's A Field Guide to Honey Bees and Their Maladies.
"EFB frequently disappears with a nectar flow."

"EFB usually does not kill colonies, but a heavy infection can seriously affect population growth."

As well as feeding would shaking in a few frames of young bees help? Maybe giving the hive a better chance to take care of the brood.


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## hummingberd (Aug 26, 2006)

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WillT I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I've been keeping bees for almost 7 years now, and I too am dealing with EFB in all 3 of my colonies.

The first thing I can tell you is that information on this disease is varied, and you will drive yourself crazy reading all of the different thoughts/ideas about treatments, causes, etc etc. The biggest mistake I made was freezing up. Has I started treatment 4 weeks ago when I discovered the problem, it'd be cleared up or almost cleared up by now!

So, doing something is better than doing nothing for fear of doing the wrong thing. Am I making sense here? 

Here's what I would have/should have done:

1) remove the frames that look the worst. Anything with more than a few suspect looking larvae needs to be removed. This disease spreads, and the more you can clean them up the less it will spread.

2) decide if you're going to treat with terramycin or if you're going to focus on removing the queen. Where as it's a nuc that was just recently installed, you may have good success banking the queen, stopping the brood cycle, and letting them clean things out. Either way, get moving with whatever you decide. The heaviest infected colony I have is starting to crash, and they may not make it through the treatment!

3) The verdict seems to be out on whether or not the equipment is a vector. If your colonies aren't large, which I'm suspecting they aren't yet, and you can afford to replace at least the foundation, do that. Or you could even try foundationless. i seriously considered buying some top bar equipment, shaking them out into it and letting them draw their own comb.

Keep us posted on what happens, and good luck!


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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I found this interesting in regards to terramycin 



> Terramycin treatments in EFB-infected colonies may actually be counterproductive because the medication permits those infected larvae to survive which would otherwise perish. These survivors then persist in the colony as a source of contamination. If the infected larvae are instead permitted to die, the house bees eject them from the hive and with them goes the source of infection. The bacterium does not form long-lived spores that persist on hive surfaces.


From http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/disorders/bacterial.html


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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So just in theory. If I pinched the queen and did nothing else and the colony makes it the new queen would possibly have some natural resistance as it would have to be one of the larvae that survived?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

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How will they raise a new queen with diseased larvae?


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## beehonest (Nov 3, 2011)

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I had Efb a couple of years ago, had a ring of brood around the outside that looked like the picture. They are not stringy like AFB and they may or may not smell bad. I fed them terimycin patties, it cleared up and they are strong hives still running today. So everybody has thier opinions, but I know what worked for me.


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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Barry said:


> How will they raise a new queen with diseased larvae?


Some larvae seem fine, they are mixed into the diseased larvae. I will try and find a picture.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

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It just seems to me like you're asking a lot of this colony. They're struggling with the disease, then they go queenless and have to jump into emergency mode, and then you hope they can raise a queen. Talk about stress!  Give it a try and let us know how it works.


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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Barry said:


> It just seems to me like you're asking a lot of this colony. They're struggling with the disease, then they go queenless and have to jump into emergency mode, and then you hope they can raise a queen. Talk about stress!  Give it a try and let us know how it works.



Maybe not the best idea at this point in my beekeeping journey. 

So my choices are:

1. Feed 1/1 and see if it corrects itself
2. Remove all brood and replace with new foundation 
3. Requeen
4. Terramycin treatment
5. Some combo of the above

Am I missing anything? 

It seems Mann Lake takes forever to get orders to me so by the time the patties arrived 10-14 days from now it may have resolved itself, so if I am going with Terramycin I will have to order the premix from brushy. Can I use the powder with screen bottom boards? If I let it correct itself should I treat the other colonies showing no signs with Terramycin to prevent the spread?

Does the fact that my colonies have EFB say anything about their genetics and their future or is it pure chance?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

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WillT said:


> Am I missing anything?


Unless you decide to terminate the hive like I did, all the other options should include removing as much of the diseased brood as possible. You can also shake all the bees into a new hive if you can get a queen from somewhere.



> If I let it correct itself should I treat the other colonies showing no signs with Terramycin to prevent the spread?


If it was me, I wouldn't. The spread comes from the nurse bees feeding the larva.



> Does the fact that my colonies have EFB say anything about their genetics and their future or is it pure chance?


I don't believe so. Chance/stress.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

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Personally, I'd not shakeout the bees, but instead feed 1:1 and seriously consider requeening the colony. If you have healthy hives that can donate brood then do that too. It would be helpful if you posted more pictures. How populous are these colonies and what hive configuration? How much brood is in them and what percentage is EFB? A picture of the hive setting would be of help too.


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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Hive setting for the 2nd colony with EFB. Behind the colony is National Forest. Its the one of the far left with the robbing screen. The 1st colony is in a similar setting backing up to a different national forest. 









2nd colony 2 deeps full, main flow is over in this area
The population is declining, it was booming. Both deeps were full and I had to remove frames to put in an internal feeder.

1st colony 2 deeps 1 full other was work in progress, main flow was in progress 
Not much uncapped brood and only a handful of eggs. This was what got me looking was the fact that this colony only had 5-10 eggs on 15 or so frames. 
I told the inspector what the larvae looked like and how the were not in the normal c shape and turning to mush. At this point he suggested I had as much larvae as the nurse bees could handle and if it was not better in 10 days he would setup a visit. Day 9 is when I found this at my other sight, 2nd colony. I have not checked on the 1st colony since that time. 

Is it possible they are breaking the brood cycle themselves? The queen was in there and looked outwardly fine.


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## hummingberd (Aug 26, 2006)

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WillT said:


> I found this interesting in regards to terramycin
> 
> 
> 
> From http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/disorders/bacterial.html


The Terramycin treats the outbreak. So this shouldn't be a problem, unless you don't treat properly. In addition, I've learned that this bacteria is always present within a colony population. And that it becomes a problem when a colony becomes "stressed." 

If you're seeing signs, that means it's time to treat. As Barry said, take out as much of the diseased brood as possible, to give them a head start on clean up. If you're going to try to requeen, you've got to break the brood cycle. All diseased larvae must be removed before introducing the queen. 

I agree with Barry, that to allow them to produce their own queen, will really only add to the stress they're experiencing. It's time for you to intervene.


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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Alright, I order mix for 10 - 6 oz patties. I also order some HopGuard and Fumagilin-B to have on hand as it seems like its better to be prepared.

All the local feed stores had was Tetroxy HCA-280 which I was not sure if this would work or not? any idea if I could use this until I get the patties on the hive? what would be the mix ratio?
http://www.drugs.com/vet/tetroxy-hca-280.html


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

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WillT said:


> This was what got me looking was the fact that this colony only had 5-10 eggs on 15 or so frames.


Clearly this colony is in distress. A double deep even after the main flow should still have plenty of brood. Our main flow has basically ended too, but I have 5 frame nucs with 3 frames of brood. How much brood is in the other hives? I'd definitely requeen this hive. Remove all of the obviously infected frames prior to giving them a new mated queen. I'd probably reduce the size of this colony too. Also, use products that are approved for bees.


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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AstroBee said:


> Clearly this colony is in distress.


Those were my thoughts as well, that is why I contacted the inspector. Not even sure that colony is alive at this point. I will go up their once the patty mix arrives to check in on it and the other 3 hives in that location. 

What caused the stress is what is concerning. These are new hives from this spring.


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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Any issue using a robbing screen with only the top entrance open? I am assuming whats left of the larvae will fall through the screen bottom?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

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beehonest said:


> I had Efb a couple of years ago, had a ring of brood around the outside that looked like the picture. They are not stringy like AFB and they may or may not smell bad. I fed them terimycin patties, it cleared up and they are strong hives still running today. So everybody has thier opinions, but I know what worked for me.


Its impossible to determine anything conclusively, but that description sounds more like chilled brood....a drop in temperature causing the cluster to contract, leaving only the brood on the outside exposed.
Deknow


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

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Yup, EFB. I've always replaced the comb to the extent I felt was needed and it cleared up. In once case I got rid of the boxes too but I'm not sure if that might just have been over doing it. I've been lucky and only had it a couple of times and it was two consecutive years so I think it was comb related.


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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Just a quick up date on my first hive to show signs. This is the one with 5-10 eggs in 2 deeps and lots of foul brood. I noticed problems about 18 days ago and had not been back to check on the hive. 

Well the hive looks much better, lots of capped brood, larvae, and eggs. There is still some foulbrood, but no were near the levels it had before. We had to really look to find it as most larvae were healthy in appearance. I did treat them with a grease patty from the recipe below. 

https://utextension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/SP596.pdf
Its not very greasy and readily falls apart. should I add a bit more shortening to get it to hold or just count on the wax paper to keep it in place?

Thank for everyones help and advice.
-Will


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## hummingberd (Aug 26, 2006)

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Glad to hear things are going well WillT. Keep us posted!


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## WillT (Jan 20, 2012)

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I went into the 2nd hive today. No foulbrood, no uncapped brood at all. They are queen less. There are at least two queen cells that look good. A third that looks like it hatched, not sure how as I didn't see the eggs last time I was in there. They are very aggressive, I guess that is to be expected. The brood chamber looks nice and clean. I am going to requeen and not let them raise their own.


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