# Honey Bee Healthy ? Yea, Nay or "Meh"?



## Nmace (Apr 4, 2012)

I just started and made homemade concentrate (recipe on this site) and am using it. I figured it did not cost too terribly much and I was going to use lemongrass oil for swarm traps anyway, so what the heck. I think that the least it does is make the house and syrup smell good. All three of my hives are sucking the syrup down, growing well and seem healthy.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

As a feeding stimulant it works well. I've always thought it had a snake oil like reputation with regards to other claims.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Luv it. I find that it helps the girls to build up very quickly. The only thing is, it will promote robbing, so it's a bad idea in boardman feeders. When I use it in early spring, I feed in hivetop feeders and feed all my hives, not just the ones doing poorly.


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm new to bee keeping, but pretty much all I've read about it seems to be positive.
I installed a package April 18 feed 2 tsp in my quart boardman jar feeder on the first quart only. The bees are booming, great cone built out with 4 to 5 frames full of eggs, larve, and capped brood.
I can't say it was because of the Honey B Healthy, but it sure didn't hurt.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

I don't really feed my bees much...have good flows here & they all started nice'n early this year  Anywise, I do use a little HBH-type concentrate in the syrup I mist the bees with during my hive inspection; seems to me it helps interfere with any alarm pheromone wafting around...and it gets the bees interested in cleaning each other off quite quickly!


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## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

I used a little in my syrup this spring and the bees seem very happy. It's like me taking Vit. C. I figure it might help, but it can't hurt.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Any essential oils are antimicrobials and will kill the beneficial bacteria in the gut of the bee. The bacteria that should be in the gut protect against Nosema, AFB, EFB etc.

Here is a study of how that bacteria forms a film or barrier that protects the gut:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188

Another on how the beneficial bacteria protect against pathogens:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188

And here are reams of research data on beneficial microbes in the hive (all of which will be killed by essential oils):

http://beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/gilliam-archives


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

If all the microbes and beneficial bacteria are killed by essential oils (HBH included) how is it that any hive that is fed HBH is not dead afterwords?

I don't remember reading any study that said HBH fed colonies had an increase in mortality rate.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Mike does cite some pretty detailed studies that among other things talk about the ill effects of even supplemental feeding. One needs to use some reason and common sense in all things beekeeping as things are never this black and white (you are a practical man right?  ). My experience is that supplements such as HBH are essentially feeding stimulants and nothing else, bees love them and yes they will promote robbing. I don't think there is any real proof they are much more than that. I personally have quit treating for Nosema and perhaps coincidentally and perhaps not our bees have improved considerably. Essential oil mite treatments, though, have clearly been a savior for our operation. Knock them if you will but I will keep using them as needed as long as I continue to see the results that I have.


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## Walliebee (Nov 17, 2006)

Why would anyone feed their bees a product that has "soap" ( Sodium Lauryl Sulfate) in it? 

Forgot to mention the warning on the label... "If accidentally ingested seek medical help." lol


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

I am a new bee keeper and I have been using it this year. I must admit it does small good. As for any beneficial effects, I dobt that anyone actually knows and hopefully someone like Mr. Bush will help us with a more scientific approach. As a non experts, I think people like myself are mostly followers in raising bees. I will observe my hives this year and compare to last year when I did not use it. I have used the last of my supply and they will now have to live without it. After all its a recession, although they all seem to be working even if it is only for a month or so.


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## magista (Jun 1, 2009)

There is no doubt there are beneficial organisms in the gut of the bee which are extremely important in honey bee health. However...

The studies linked are talking about prophylactic treatments (Tylan, etc...) not essential oils. There is nothing in either that state essential oils kill beneficial bacteria in the gut of the honeybee (if I missed something please point it out). If there is a study that is specific to essential oils killing beneficial micro-organisms in the gut of the honey bee please share it. Until then, it's pure conjecture.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I can't disagree with a thing MB or JL said. I would add that using HBH or any EO routinely is foolish and damaging. Using it for a brood cycle to treat mites I heartily believe in, then it is time for the bees to recover and I hope they find the bee equivalent to yogurt to reenergize and supply proper gut fauna. Prolonged feeding of any of this stuff is damaging.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

HBH as a mite treatment? For Varroa, Thracheal or both? Are you serious and have you personally observed positive results?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

MB and Specialkayme led the discussion towards other essential oils which would include thymol. Sorry, probably should have stayed closer to the intent of the thread which was HBH.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I have used it and it does seem to help sometimes. But, most of the time I am only trying to feed a couple of hives. But, because it smells so good to the bees from the other hives start trying to rob them out. Normally it is the weaker hives I am trying to feed, so it gets ugly pretty fast. So now I do not use any kind of feeding stimulant. Keep that in mind when feeding the weak hives.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If all the microbes and beneficial bacteria are killed by essential oils (HBH included) how is it that any hive that is fed HBH is not dead afterwords?

Luckily there are bacteria everywhere and they eventually get replaced.

>I don't remember reading any study that said HBH fed colonies had an increase in mortality rate. 

Compared to what? There is a large increase in mortality in recent years and it's not just essential oils that are disrupting the microbes. Fumidil, Tyloson, Terramycin, organic acids and essential oils all disrupt them.

>The studies linked are talking about prophylactic treatments (Tylan, etc...) not essential oils. There is nothing in either that state essential oils kill beneficial bacteria in the gut of the honeybee (if I missed something please point it out). 

The evidence that essential oils are antimicrobial and will kill yeasts, fungus, bacteria and viruses is far to well know to need any additional evidence. But if that's what you need, try a search on "essential oils antimicrobial properties" on google and you'll get about half a million hits and many of them are scholarly articles on that property of essential oils.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Luckily there are bacteria everywhere and they eventually get replaced.


So no harm done?



Michael Bush said:


> Compared to what?


Compared to feeding without essential oils or HBH.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So no harm done?

A lot of harm done. A lot of bee bread that doesn't ferment quite correctly and guts that get infested with things that should be there. Can they recover? Eventually, yes. How much harm is done? Hard to measure, but bees are collapsing all over and we are doing MANY things that disrupt the microbes. Often the right balance comes back. Often the right balance does not and something else gets a foothold that shouldn't. The point is the only reason they SURVIVE is that some of the microbes come back.

>>Compared to what?
>Compared to feeding without essential oils or HBH. 

But there are already higher mortality rates and the causes are probably many. It makes it difficult for anyone to isolate one cause. But feeding sugar in general will disrupt the microbes by shifting the pH so different ones flourish. The HBH will actually kill them. Which is better?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Let's try some simple logic:

Fact: Part of the bees' immune system is the film of bacteria in their gut that protects them from pathogens.
Fact: Bee bread is a fermentation process that requires bacteria and yeasts.
Fact: Essential oils kill bacteria and yeasts.
Fact: Essential oils in feed will be in the bees' gut and will be put in the bee bread.


What are reasonable expectations when feeding essential oils?

I think the only REAL questions are:

Whether when an infestation is in progress (such as Nosema) is it the lesser of two evils to kill off all the microbes since some of them are causing serious harm at the moment.

Whether when you've already wiped out the bacteria with Tylosin or Terramycin are you better off killing off everything so something doesn't get through the now already compromised and unprotected gut.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

Don't know much bee specific biology but what Michael says is true for most other creatures so the logic seems sound. If any of you have ever been on antibiotics you probably know first hand what antibiotics do to your digestive system. More importantly any antibiotic that doesn't kill 100% of the microbes will eventually lead to resistance. Due to the prominence of HBH thats probably happened already, its certainly happened with almost all the antibiotics used on humans and other livestock. 

Wether HBH has enough antibiotic properties to sterilize a bee gut I don't think anyone knows for sure, but without imperial evidence that it does good why use it? 

Inappropriate prophylactic chemical treatment is on of the worst mistakes made by modern chemistry. For the first few decades it wasn't properly understood how damaging it was but now that we know what it does why take the risk?


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Don't forget that essential oils (including spearmint, by the way) are present in nectar -- it's part of what gives honey it's flavor, after all. 

I'm sure the essential oils in HBH attract bees the same way flower scents attract them, but one should be quite careful about how much one adds, and I would not use it routinely myself. While I feed new swarms and packages to get comb drawn, it's much better to have the bees do their own collecting from natural sources.

The same caveat applies to protein supplements -- they can be very useful, especially here where we tend to get a serious nectar and pollen dearth in late summer early fall (no rain from late June to late September unless we have unusual weather or a tropical storm blows up this way from the Gulf) and I've decided to feed a partial supplement patty for making winter bees -- mine were small this spring, as sure sign of low protein while developing, and my brother and I both lost a hive, I think as a result. That doesn't mean I intend to keep one on the hive at all times, just some to establish a hive and some in the fall to make sure the bees are stoked up for winter and spring.

Peter


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> How much harm is done? Hard to measure, but bees are collapsing all over and we are doing MANY things that disrupt the microbes.


You have a missing step Mr. Bush. I don't doubt that essential oils kills _some_ bacteria (I'm not convinced it kills _all_ bacteria, anti-biotics doesn't even do that). And there is no doubt bees use some bacteria in their hive. But I have not seen, and by the lack of information I doubt you have either, any study or piece of evidence that shows feeding essential oils/HBH to a hive puts them in a worse position than if you didn't. If the essential oils killed all bacteria and yeast, the pollen wouldn't ferment, and the bees would starve. I can go in my back yard and pour HBH onto the hive (or spray it everywhere, as many others do) and they will have no problem feeding their young. 

If you are going to point to "bees collapsing all over" as your evidence, you don't have a causal relationship. It could just as easily be an independent variable. Or, it could be a _new_ bacteria that is introduced into the hive that the bees can't fight that is making "bees collapse all over", by which essential oils would actually _help_ the hive. The point is you don't know.



Michael Bush said:


> >>Compared to what?
> >Compared to feeding without essential oils or HBH.
> 
> But there are already higher mortality rates and the causes are probably many. It makes it difficult for anyone to isolate one cause. But feeding sugar in general will disrupt the microbes by shifting the pH so different ones flourish. The HBH will actually kill them. Which is better?


Again. No causal relationship. No evidence to prove your theory correct.

The bee informed partnership studied the relationship between several key factors and overwinter loss. One of those relationships was the feeding of sugar (or HFCS). There was no distinct correlation found when compared to individuals who did not feed. If you are correct, there should have been a strong (or even mild) correlation found, meaning individuals who fed sugar water to hives (with or without essential oils or HBH) should have had a higher mortality rate. They did not.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying you don't know. It's a theory. Until it is proven correctly, that's all it is. A theory. By the same standard, I don't know you are wrong. I'm making a theory, based on evidence in front of me. Labeling either position as fact is harmful to the industry.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Fact: Part of the bees' immune system is the film of bacteria in their gut that protects them from pathogens.
> Fact: Bee bread is a fermentation process that requires bacteria and yeasts.
> Fact: Essential oils kill bacteria and yeasts.
> Fact: Essential oils in feed will be in the bees' gut and will be put in the bee bread.
> ...


That's exactly my point. You are making assumptions. You list four facts, none of which show that colonies that are fed HBH or essential oils have a higher mortality rate. Your facts just _hypothesize_ that it will. But the evidence in front of you says otherwise.

If you really wanted to use "simple logic" you would follow a typical proof: If A, if B, if C, therefore D. You have the facts, and you have a suspected result. But you can't show any evidence that the facts are causing the suspected result. You have no causal relationship.


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## Let_it _Bee (May 21, 2004)

Ditto on the robbing problems. I can find enough other things to spend my bee money on.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> Whether when you've already wiped out the bacteria with Tylosin or Terramycin are you better off killing off everything so something doesn't get through the now already compromised and unprotected gut.


I am not sure at what point this conversation made the leap from essential oils to antibiotics. While I would agree that no research that I have seen indicates that usage of a product like HBH has any other effect on a hive than to stimulate it, I also don't see any research showing that essential oils actually do any harm. I have no doubt that it reacts with LAB in some way but lets not try to equate essential oils with antibiotics that are clearly designed to sterilize the gut.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

A couple years ago I tried it and didnt notice any difference between hives that I fed it to and the hives I didnt. The only problem I had with it was even after I stopped feeding it and supered the hives for the season I could smell it in the honey supers in the fall and swear I could even taste it in the honey. So I wont feed it agian, and now I keep feeding to a minimum.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Maybe some one is right and some one is wrong or as is the case with so much in life maybe the truth lies in the middle. 
Could it be possible that feeding given amount of essential oils is like taking two steps forward and one step back? Or the opposite ? 

Even if it works it doesn't fit into MB beekeeping philosophy


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## WXBEE (Feb 10, 2012)

Fascinating discussion all.. good stuff..


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

The directions say to use 2 tsp per quart of syrup and the second ingredient on the lable is "water" (the first ingredient is sucrose). I am wondering what the final concentration of EO ends up in the feed when properly mixed. Of course pure EO of just about any kind is toxic to bees (and many other organisms, including humans). I have know idea but I suspect that when HBH diluted properly, there is not enough in the feed to kill all bateria in the bee's gut. Since we dont know how much of each EO is in HBH, it's a moot point. We just do not know. 

To me it is like the old saying that fishing lures are made to attract the fisherman, not the fish. People buy EO supplements because they smell good, EO's have a mystical new age quality about them, and they think it will help the bees. Thinking, "afterall, it cant hurt".

Anyway, I dont want to disparage the fine folks who make HBH (or any other feeding supplement). So if they say it works and you think it works, go for it. Afterall, it cant hurt.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Here is something to read... 

http://beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=697


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Interesting reading; however, there are a few problems with the article:

It looks like most of the examples were of people who greatly over-applied the essential oil mix by dumping it right on the bees. Might as well use formic acid, or better yet oxycylic acid.



> Michael mixed up a batch of Honey-Bee-Healthy (a mixture of lemongrass and spearmint oils) with sugar syrup at four times the recommended feeding concentration.


and



> Gary mixed a gallon of Honey-B-Healthy into a 55 gallon drum of sugar syrup and drenched the bees.



Also, the self proclaimed _anecdotal_ reports seem skewed:


> *It seems that Dirk is also a dealer of Honey-B-Healthy and the fact that a number of these beekeepers who are reporting such good results with essential oils are also selling it *was making me rather skeptical. After all, these *anecdotal reports *are all well and good but where is the science-based evidence for the efficacy of using essential oils to kill viruses, molds, and fungi, help prevent queen rejection, control Nosema, and aid in reducing _Varroa_ issues in the hive?


　
It's now well into 2012. Did they ever get the grants of publish the results?


> David has obtained grants to run experimental trials on essential oils and as a part of these trials he is scheduled to collect data specifically on the Honey-B-Healthy and LeFore essential oil products for most of this year and should have empirical data on their effectiveness against viruses in the hive by the beginning of 2011.



At least the author was realistic about the claims.


> So far however, he has no data that can refute or confirm such claims.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I know some of these folks, good beekeepers all for sure. I did the same thing for a while but came to the conclusion, at least in my mind, that the only real results that I could prove were that my wallet became lighter. I do continue to use it in the very early spring in an effort to jump start some queen laying but nothing can compare to an early nectar/pollen flow, that is unless you are using some of that supercharged sub. but then thats fodder for another thread.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>You have a missing step Mr. Bush. I don't doubt that essential oils kills some bacteria (I'm not convinced it kills all bacteria, anti-biotics doesn't even do that). 

Sorry, I guess there was some ambiguity in the way I stated it. It was not my meaning to say that no amount of bacteria survive essential oils but rather that essential oils kill the entire spectrum of microbes including all kinds of bacteria, yeasts, fungi and viruses.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> You list four facts, none of which show that colonies that are fed HBH or essential oils have a higher mortality rate.

But all of which show the mechanism by which it could and most likely would.

> Your facts just hypothesize that it will. But the evidence in front of you says otherwise.

My facts were just facts. My hypothesis is just a hypothesis but a conclusion that is difficult to avoid based on the known facts. What is the "evidence in front of me that says otherwise"?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> , that is unless you are using some of that supercharged sub. but then thats fodder for another thread.


Now your logging.....


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> But all of which show the mechanism by which it _*could*_ and most _*likely*_ would.


Two very important words in that sentence. None show the mechanism that it _*IS*_.



Michael Bush said:


> What is the "evidence in front of me that says otherwise"?


1. That no study or piece of evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, shows that colonies that are fed HBH have an increased mortality rate or a decreased winter survival rate than those that have not been fed HBH. 
2. That no study or piece of evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, shows that colonies that are fed essential oils have an increased mortality rate or a decreased winter survival rate than those that have not been fed essential oils.
3. That no study or piece of evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, shows that colonies that are fed sugar syrup have an increased mortality rate or a decreased winter survival rate than those that have not been fed sugar syrup. 

Your facts may be facts, and your hypothesis may be a conclusion that is "difficult to avoid," but there is no correlation of evidence between your facts and your hypothesis. Continuing to state it as an affirmative truth is misleading.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I would agree that there is no data to assume that there is anything harmful in the feeding of HBH. With its widespread use by a lot of pretty savvy beekeepers I think we can safely assume that the chance of downside risk is minimal. My feeling, though, continues to be that it is more snake oil than essential oil.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Specialkayme said:


> ...no study or piece of evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, shows that colonies that are fed HBH have an increased mortality rate or a decreased winter survival rate than those that have not been fed HBH.
> ...no study or piece of evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, shows that colonies that are fed essential oils have an increased mortality rate or a decreased winter survival rate than those that have not been fed essential oils.
> ...no study or piece of evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, shows that colonies that are fed sugar syrup have an increased mortality rate or a decreased winter survival rate than those that have not been fed sugar syrup...


But there are studies showing that there are a number of bacteria and microbes that are important to bee health, and a number of studies showing that essential oils are likely to harm them. So there's that. There are things known about the bacteria and microbes, and there are things known about the effects of essential oils on those types of organisms.

This thread is just a reminder to me about what's so frustrating about trying to learn from others here to make "educated" decisions. Everyone spends all their time talking about the lack of "studies" and "proof", and one seemingly solid point is countered by another, and on and on. Leaves you just choosing a side based on your opinion anyway.


Adam


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> But there are studies showing that there are a number of bacteria and microbes that are important to bee health, and a number of studies showing that essential oils are likely to harm them. So there's that. There are things known about the bacteria and microbes, and there are things known about the effects of essential oils on those types of organisms.
> 
> This thread is just a reminder to me about what's so frustrating about trying to learn from others here to make "educated" decisions. Everyone spends all their time talking about the lack of "studies" and "proof", and one seemingly solid point is countered by another, and on and on. Leaves you just choosing a side based on your opinion anyway.
> 
> ...


I think you are being a bit harsh Adam. This is really about the free exchange of ideas. People don't debate things for which there is consensus. If you can cite studies showing that HBH is harmful to bee health I would be greatly interested in reading them as I am clearly on the fence on their use.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

You're probably right, Jim. I'm showing my personal frustration in that I feel like there isn't consensus on much. A personal problem.

It seems clear that there are no conclusive studies showing HBH (or essential oil) harm to bee health.

Adam


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

What is still confusing me is when people post about EO (Essential Oil) are they talking about pure EO or a diluted form? Clearly HBH is diluted (quite a bit). I have been known to dip the end of a toothpick into a bottle of pure spearment oil and put a couple of drops in a gallons of syrup (I already have several EOs lying around for soap and candle making). Pure EO is a different thing - try taking a shot of pure cinnamon oil if you are unsure. On second thought, dont try it. inch:

Anyway I think it would help the conversation if people posting would mention the concentration of EO when they talking about toxicity and effectiveness. 

Thanks.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Good point Nabber. I have used it at half the recommended rate of a gallon per 200 gallons. It seems like the recommended dosage is higher to realize a supposed therapeutic benefit but a lower dosage for stimulative effects. Of course their are also claims of lowering nosema levels by using it at higher concentrations as a drench, something which I have no experience in. But again its always "claimed" benefits, it never seems like there is any scientific data to back any of this up.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I suspect that the recommended "dose" for HBH to stimulate feeding is on the order of a few parts per million in the feed (a few drops of EO in a quart of syrup, one or two tsp of that per gallon of feed).

I'd expect nectar to contain essential oils somewhat below this level, but I'm sure they are present in order to entice bees and other pollinators to feed on them.

Higher levels are "unnatural" in that they are never present in the wild, so should be used with caution. Something found in sub ppm levels in flowers might be quite toxic in percent level, see the comment on cinnamon oil above!

There is also a difference in the character of the essential oils in question as well -- bees love thymol, as you can tell by the way the flock to thyme when it's in bloom, ditto for all the mints. Lemongrass oil is different, as grasses are wind pollinated and don't attract insect pollinators. One of the components of lemongrass oil, however, is also a component of the Nasanov gland pheremone, purely by coindecence, I'm sure!

Scientific studies are designed to isolate the effects of whatever is being studied from interfering effects, and are often somewhat difficult for the layman to understand, since there are usually some statistics, lots of chemical nomeclature, and lots of caveats in all of them. It's often necessary to do some more reading and look at earlier (or contradictory) publications to get a handle on just exactly is being determined. Typically a single paper will deal with only a very small part of some larger question -- as one of my Biology profs said way back in the 70's, you have to keep asking more and more detailed questions about smaller and smaller things until you can get a "yes or no", then add them all back up. I still have the "pyramid of questions" T-shirt we made for the class, although I'm not sure I can still get it on.

Peter


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## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

It is _extremely_ difficult to find "causation" in biology. We can perform an experiment and we can observe what appears to be a correlation in the results, but, really, "that's about as far as it goes." What is the effect of the presence of the experiment(er) itself?

Each and every time you grab hold of a "variable" and try to move it in some way, or try to hold it still, you are influencing the system that you are trying to measure, perchance to "control." You, say, introduce an essential oil into the hive and look for a "positive" effect. If you see one, the natural tendency is to call it an "improvement." But do beehives, _au naturel,_ have essential oils in them at all? Have they ever encountered "refined sugar syrup," let alone by the gallon? The more you stick your hands into the situation and try to pull the strings, the more the system itself becomes a marionette. And this, in turn, fuzzes the information-value of your conclusions. It certainly brings "the conclusions you are testing for" to the surface, but it buries the subtle interactions of the total system; of the things we don't even know to test for. We humans are discovering something altogether new about "ancient Nature" _every_ day.

I would also offer the observation that, perhaps, the more _directly_ you endeavor to influence ... the shorter the distance between what you did and what outcome you received ... the more unnatural the situation becomes and then perhaps the more that _nature_ is (so to speak) programmed to work against you. Everything about nature seems to be "in the large, even at the expense of the small." It is, in other words, an extremely macro-scopic point of view at all times. It is a "dirty world" that actually seems to be designed to be dirty, not clean. _Filled_ with mites and moths and germs, and designed to constantly encounter them. Any particular colony might fail to do so; the natural forest will nevertheless remain filled with feral hives ... and mites, and moths, and germs.

Therefore, _can we know_ what a particular concoction does or does not "do?" I don't know how well we can separate its influence from the fact that we added (even _plain water_) to the hive ecosystem which is more or less of our devising anyway. We might be measuring the experiment. We are _certainly_ exerting a rather "bull in a china shop" influence on the fundamental process of natural selection, and we don't really know how those factors influence outcomes, particularly in nature's point-of-view: the long view. We literally don't _know._


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## beehonest (Nov 3, 2011)

Not getting into the arguments, just stating my opinion. If there was a lot of proof there would be a lot less arguing. For me it seems to get them to build up faster, I think it's because they are attracted to the smell and eat more. As far as health I can't see a change with or without.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

mrobinson:

All of what you said is why proper scientific studies are both difficult to do and difficult for most people to get good information from. The whole point is to isolate EVERY one of the things you comment on from the effect being studied. It will take more than one study to get at the real effect (my "pyramid of questions"), and time. Lots of time. Decades of time, in most cases. Science and technology move slowly -- the theory of supersonic flight, for instance, was fully worked out mathematically in the 1850's, along with the knowledge that steam power would never make an airplane fly. Took almost a century before a supersonic plane actually broke the sound barrier. All the computer "breakthroughs" of the 80's and 90's were better and better application of things well known in the 50's, just took quite a while to figure out how to do it.

Properly designed, any "study" should be undertaken in a way that isolates all the effects you mention from the one effect be studied. This is not a trivial matter, and I won't go into the difficulties of "measurement" -- I took TWO advanced graduate level statistics courses on that alone.

It takes time, replication, and multiple "subjects" (in this case, hives) under very carefully controlled conditions to get good information out of an investigation. Bee hives are highly variable, and some way of accounting for other conditions one cannot control (weather, for instance) have to be included to tease out the actual effect due only to what one is studying.

It's not as if there is a secret code book somewhere that getting a PhD gives one access to where all the knowledge in the Universe is written and one can simply repeat it once access is achieved. 

Doing a good, well controlled study on the effects of HBH on bee hives long term is going to tie up a couple graduate students for a couple years (at least) and probably should involve multiple locations of fairly large numbers of hives (tens at least for each amount/feeding system used), so it wouldn't be trivial at all. 

This discussion is why I tend to get rather cranky when someone says "but MY scientist says......". Only if "he" is passing on opinion rather than derived information, science is NOT a verbal contest, it's the evaluation of the quality and applicability of measured data and the proving of ideas/concepts/"theories" therewith. Opinion contests are not supposed to be allowed, although this "rule" seems to be honored more in the breach these days than by being actually followed.

Since we have seen fit to slash goverment funded research to the bone for the last 32 years becaues no one is making a buck off it today, I don't expect anyone to undertake a serious study of the effects of essential oil feeding stimulants any time soon. There are more pressing issues, especially for large scale, tax paying beekeepers, and no money.

Peter


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

I don't buy it that essential oils or any kind of oil will kill good bacteria. All organisms need some oil in their diet to absorb fat soluble vitamins (ADEK). Without fat they would become deficient. Just think about yogurt as it does contain beneficial bacterial and fat. I believe some oils will kill certain bacteria, but to generalize it to all bacteria and all essential oils is taken to far. An example would be that they use bacteria to break down refined oil, which means it does not kill them. To much of everything can have negative effects on everything. I do use Pro Health (same as HBH) in my sugar syrup. Not the dose they did put on the package, because it does attract robbers and ants! I put about 1 tablespoon into a 10 pound 1:1 syrup. Stimulating feeding will also help with nosema, so why not use it if you have nosema. Your bees may thank you after a long winter if they are not feeling so well and you perk them up with it. I will continue to use it when I feed them. Not that they need to be feed a lot. Ok, those are my two cents, and I do respect what others say.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I could be wrong here, I _think _essential oils are usually esters, aromatics (benzene ring based), or other cylical compounds. I am not sure how they relate to fats (fatty acids) or oils from a nutritional standpoint.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

How could 95% of the planets animal kingdom possibly lead a normal healthy intended existence without the need of man's intervention to make them a better or more productive species for our intended purpose. I have never found the need to feed any supplements to make my bees better. Some years they are fatter than other years. That appears to be mother nature's unique way of procreation of all species. I like going with the flow, and would rather not be pushing products on my hives thinking I can somehow make them better.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> I could be wrong here, I think essential oils are usually esters, aromatics (benzene ring based), or other cylical compounds. I am not sure how they relate to fats (fatty acids) or oils from a nutritional standpoint.


Your not wrong.


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## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

I obviously can't speak to "supersonic flight," and I don't intend to. (I don't even intend to get _too_ deeply involved in the extant discussion.) But I _would_ observe that "supersonic flight" is a much simpler proposition than "biology," because with regards to supersonic flight we at least know all of the variables. In almost anything having to do with real-world biological systems, we very simply don't. We are groping in the darkness.

At any point in time, do we have even the foggiest notion just how many feral honeybee hives are surviving out there, utterly devoid of "human management?" That is the "natural environment" that the honeybee (and its mites and moths and fungi and bacteria) truly comes from. This insect was never conceived to put honey into our jars; they do not require our "help" except to compensate for the fix we put them into. We are privileged to be their custodians and to that end we have utterly no source of quarrel among ourselves.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

mrobinson said:


> It is _extremely_ difficult to find "causation" in biology. We can perform an experiment and we can observe what appears to be a correlation in the results, but, really, "that's about as far as it goes."


Very well said Mrobinson,

when we (nutra bee) look at performance on sub, it takes a couple hundred thousands hives & a couple years before we draw an opinion. 

some just draw a case study & have 10 hives in ther back yard and form and opinion from that.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Perhaps next spring I will run my own large scale test, say 1000 hives with HBH and 1000 hives without. Though it wouldn't be terribly scientific I think some pretty good casual observations could be made. It's something that I curse myself every year for not doing. I really believe that these kind of macro evaluations are significant. What I don't care for is the "last year my bees were bad then I started feeding HBH and now they are good" line of reasoning.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

Run your own test. Take your hives, feed half syrup with and half syrup without for a few years and see if you can see tell any difference other than your wallet.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

I think this is kind of like the argument where the 50 year old guy says I've been drinking, smoking, drinking pop (substitute your own here) my entire life and I am still alive and doing fine. Just becasue the bees aren't severly debilitated or dead doesn't mean it is doing no harm.....


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## otto (Nov 2, 2010)

nobody mentioned that HBH effects the taste of the honey.
makes it taste like medicine!
if there is a good varied nectar - pollen flow, they don't need it. I use it only in new package bees, swarms and splits. not in hives I plan to take honey from.
good luck, otto


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

jim lyon said:


> Perhaps next spring I will run my own large scale test, say 1000 hives with HBH and 1000 hives without. Though it wouldn't be terribly scientific I think some pretty good casual observations could be made. It's something that I curse myself every year for not doing. I really believe that these kind of macro evaluations are significant. What I don't care for is the "last year my bees were bad then I started feeding HBH and now they are good" line of reasoning.


Did you do it?What were the results?



hilreal said:


> I think this is kind of like the argument where the 50 year old guy says I've been drinking, smoking, drinking pop (substitute your own here) my entire life and I am still alive and doing fine. Just becasue the bees aren't severly debilitated or dead doesn't mean it is doing no harm.....


That would be me...except I'm closer to 60. Smoking since I was 7, drinking since 12, also...nevermind...:shhhh:



otto said:


> nobody mentioned that HBH effects the taste of the honey.
> makes it taste like medicine!
> if there is a good varied nectar - pollen flow, they don't need it. I use it only in new package bees, swarms and splits. not in hives I plan to take honey from.
> good luck, otto


Way to revive a dead thread...but, the results of Jim's test (if he did it) might be interesting. I only use HBH when feeding a new hive (if I have no honey to give, and they need to draw comb quickly) or when giving Fumagilin treatments. Otherwise, I usually don't feed.


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