# How do you keep your honey pure if you keep feeding your bees?



## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

The simple answer is to not feed when you've got honey supers on.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

or you can put red food coloring in the sugar water, and you are safe if it doesn't show up in your honey supers.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>how do you keep straight if you might have sugar syrup or not?

Most people just pretend they don't know... don't ask, don't tell.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

You don't feed while the flow is on. By the time you have an extended dearth and have to feed, the honey will be capped. They won't uncapp it to add syrup.

You could mark your pure honey frames that are fully capped with a thumb tack or marker on the top of the frame before you feed, then harvest later if desired. Weeks or months from now, You'll know what is pure and what may be feed. 
Most of the syrup will be going to the bone dry brood nest area first, the only open cells in the hive at that point. But it depends on your circumstances.

They can live on honey, but light 1:1 syrup is a stimulating feed. You'll get more brood rearing on 1:1 than you will from capped honey frames. A little of both is what I use.
Don't forget a protein patty if you want well fed brood and good growth.

I don't harvest my honey yet .. I let the bees keep it so I can expand my hive numbers and make nucs. On a large commercial scale, marking the frames wouldn't be efficient. But for the person with a hive or two, I don't see why marking the frames wouldn't work just fine.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >how do you keep straight if you might have sugar syrup or not?
> 
> Most people just pretend they don't know... don't ask, don't tell.


Really? MOST beekeepers are intentionally dishonest by practicing plausible deniability? You may have your fellow beekeepers confused with the government.

If you ever feed a drop of syrup then you don't KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that some of it doesn't end up in your honey, but if you take reasonable care and stop feeding before supering then your honey will be fine.

May as well worry about the fact that every breath you take contains air that was breathed by Hitler and Genghis Khan.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

David LaFerney said:


> Really? MOST beekeepers are intentionally dishonest by practicing plausible deniability?


Hmmm. I read "most" to mean most of the experienced beekeepers who feed sugar with supers on when they know they shouldn't because they're going to sell the resulting product, rather than most backyard beekeepers.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Well, I use all mediums, so to me "honey supers" aren't much different from any other supers because they just kind of all wander here and there and store honey wherever they want. Then they might move it here and there, so really, how could you ever know, if you're feeding syrup. Someone I was talking to mentioned a feeding schedule that commercial beekeepers use: during the spring flow, the bees store honey. During the dearth you feed and they basically eat it. Then in the fall flow you don't feed, and after that collect honey, or something like that, I'm not sure how that schedule works.

To be on the safe side, I'd just as soon not feed syrup to overwintered hives at all. Then in the winter, put fondant or a sugar patty in the hives just to be sure. I guess I would probably have less honey to take that way too, but it would be worth the peace of mind to know it's real honey.

I think there are new labeling laws - are they only here, or are they federal? - that if your honey contains sugar syrup, you have to put that on the label.

Edit: I did appreciate that info, Lauri. It does make sense that they won't be capping honey during a dearth because they won't have honey to cap. Altho I've seen uncapped honey in there a lot, I wonder if it just sits there for extended periods sometimes.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

I don't have that problem since I run deep brood chambers, but if I did all mediums I'd just make sure that the comb was empty that went on for honey collection.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

One method is to use only a single deep brood chamber. It is alot easier for them to hide feed in a double or triple deep setup than in a single deep. If you keep them lean untill the flow starts, most anything in the brood chamber will be turned into bees and not moved. We also have our honey tested for ISCIRA.

Crazy Roland


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Roland;1105023 We also have our honey tested for ISCIRA.
Crazy Roland[/QUOTE said:


> ok Crazy Roland, you got me, I googled ISCIRA and all I came up with is a war game?
> World of Warcraft · Community · Iscira @ Outland · Iscira. Starcaller


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

NewbeeInNH said:


> I think there are new labeling laws - are they only here, or are they federal? - that if your honey contains sugar syrup, you have to put that on the label.


You misunderstand the regulation. If you sell a honey/syrup blend you have to state that on your label. Not unlike before. Truth in labeling. You can not sell adulterated honey and call it HONEY. And it is a Federal Regulation.

The answer to your question as posed in the Thread title is : Timing. Timing and supering for honey. And then harvesting. 

Stop feeding and remove feeders when your bees don't need feeding anymore and well before the nectar flow starts. Don't super for honey when feeders are in place. Don't harvest from the brood boxes.

How purely free from any kind of syrup you may have fed does your honey need to be? 100%? Then don't feed in the Spring. I have been told that bees move stores around the hive, so, any stored syrup/honey, syrup processed by the bees, will run the risk of being blended w/ honey produced by the bees from nectar that they brought into the hive all on their own.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

If they randomly tested honey, how much of the supply do you think would be at least a small part syrup? Maybe if it's under a certain percent, it should be slide-able, seems so difficult to avoid altogether. 



> One method is to use only a single deep brood chamber. It is alot easier for them to hide feed in a double or triple deep setup than in a single deep. If you keep them lean untill the flow starts, most anything in the brood chamber will be turned into bees and not moved.


Is that why commercial bee lots seem to have such short hives? My hives get several mediums high, and I think I might be doing it inefficiently. So you use a deep brood chamber and leave it alone, and then just swap a honey super or two on and off the top?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Generalizations about commercial beekeepers are just like generalizations about hobby beekeepers. The word "some" or maybe in some cases "most" should come before commercial beekeepers, unless you are siting a specific commercial beekeeper.

Here in NY, a cpl years ago, our State Dept of Ag&Mkts collected samples of honey from grocery store shelves across the State and found no adulteration. Whereas, deknow, a frequent poster here on beesource, has found honey he purchased from a local beekeeper who bought that honey from another beekeeper to be adulterated. That's how I remember him stating the situation. There have been cases where a Honey Packer has intentionally blended honey and HFCS together and sold it as honey. They didn't get away w/ it.

So, it does happen, infrequently.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

A local news channel tested our local store bought "Honey". Check out the results on our FB page below.

Happens more frequently than you think.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> ok Crazy Roland, you got me, I googled ISCIRA and all I came up with is a war game?


If you include 'honey' as part of the search phrase then the results are more relevant.  Try searching for "ISCIRA honey". The acronym translates as "Internal Standard Isotope Ratio Analysis (ISCIRA)".


One of the resulting links ....


> *Stable carbon isotope ratio analysis of honey: validation of internal standard procedure for worldwide application*
> 
> Stable carbon isotope ratio analysis (SCIRA) of honey for undeclared presence of cane or corn sugars has been available for 20 years. Its use with domestic and imported honeys is reviewed. .... .... .... ...
> 
> ...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Really? MOST beekeepers are intentionally dishonest by practicing plausible deniability? You may have your fellow beekeepers confused with the government.

I love when people put words in my mouth. I'm saying people want to believe in the "no peeing section of the pool" or the "no smoke section" of an airplane (anyone remember that?) If you feed syrup some of it ends up in your honey. No one likes to admit it. They like to pretend it doesn't happen. The more you feed, the more of it ends up in your honey. The queen excluder does not magically keep it all below. Bees move stores all the time. People raising comb honey count on it. Just because you stop feeding when you put on the supers does not keep bees from moving the syrup above to clear space for the queen to lay below. Denial is not just a river in Egypt...

> If you ever feed a drop of syrup then you don't KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that some of it doesn't end up in your honey, but if you take reasonable care and stop feeding before supering then your honey will be fine.

If you ever feed a drop of syrup then some of it is in your honey. If you feed gallons of syrup right up until you super then I would consider that a significant amount that is in your honey. A good guess is that about the amount that is in the brood nest at the time you super will get moved up into the supers.

> May as well worry about the fact that every breath you take contains air that was breathed by Hitler and Genghis Khan. 

I see no comparison here. The amount of air in the world compared to the amount the breathed to the amount I breath is insignificant. If I feed several gallons of syrup it is very significant. In terms of scope, you are literally comparing a mountain to a molehill. No, actually that's not even in the ballpark, I think a mountain and a molehill are closer in scope than the amount of air I breathe that Hitler breathed... and no, I don't worry about it at all...


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> I love when people put words in my mouth.





Michael Bush said:


> >how do you keep straight if you might have sugar syrup or not?
> 
> Most people just pretend they don't know... don't ask, don't tell.


_*pre·tend* - to act as if something is true when it is not true_

I'm not trying to be combative but what you said seems to be that Most people just act as if their honey is pure when they know that it is not. I don't see how I put words in your mouth. It *sounds like* you are casting aspersions on "Most" beekeepers who feed.




Michael Bush said:


> If you feed syrup some of it ends up in your honey. No one likes to admit it. They like to pretend it doesn't happen. The more you feed, the more of it ends up in your honey... If you ever feed a drop of syrup then some of it is in your honey.


Maybe, but you are making an absolute statement without any reference to timing or state of the hive. Do you have any research to back that absolute statement up or is it just your opinion? If someone discards a can with a drop of mountian dew in it anywhere near your apiary during the honey season then THAT is in YOUR honey. Can you guarantee *absolute* purity then? No? Then you just have to hope for the best and *pretend* I guess.

My observation has generally been that during a period well into early flows healthy hives have used up much of their winter stores and have lots of brood to feed. During good weather they can keep up and even get ahead a bit, but a few days of not being able to forage because of weather quickly depletes anything they have brought in. Stores get low enough that they probably don't need to be moved around other than to feed brood - a dinky hive with lots of left over stores is different, but usually doesn't make a honey crop in my area. Later when the weather has settled and I add supers during inspections I can see nectar coming in. You can easily observe the differences from the different forage sources - some is thin and watery (dandelion I think), some is thick and clings to the comb (poplar) some clear, some amber... I personally have never noticed anything that looked like old feed being move up into supers. Not proof of course, but observation is what I have. Again, any scientific evidence about the situations where this might happen? *That *would be helpful.

The OP wasn't asking how to cheat - which of course happens - but how to conscientiously avoid contamination. Best practices are the tools we have to work with, and I suspect that when they are utilized any accidental contamination is below the level of detection by all but the most sensitive tests. Just like that air I mentioned.

Anyone who thinks that *Their* honey is as pure as a newborn baby's soul is probably pretending or delusional. But if you are *trying* to do the right thing then it is probably pure enough for any *earthly* standard.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

> If you ever feed a drop of syrup then some of it is in your honey. If you feed gallons of syrup right up until you super then I would consider that a significant amount that is in your honey. A good guess is that about the amount that is in the brood nest at the time you super will get moved up into the supers.


This is the part that's nagging at me.

So do you feed your bees?

I know a years-long beekeeper near me who does not regularly feed her bees. Success in her bee survivability has gone up and down, but other factors are involved too, it may have nothing to do with feeding habits. I'm wondering if only light feeding when absolutely necessary for overwintered hives is a possibility, because frankly, I just don't want to have to deal with second guesses and doubts that my honey is 100% (or close enough) pure.

By the way, they don't really inform new beekeepers about this much, at least from what I've seen. This being my 3rd summer with bees, I'm still trying to figure it out. How many new beekeepers have either sold sugar syrup or eaten it, thinking honey is honey is honey?

A good beekeeping tool might be a handy honey monitoring device, to tell the exact non-honey sugar content in the supply.

Edit: Wanting more pure honey through less feeding probably would mean you have to leave more honey frames in the hives for the bees instead of taking them.

Edit edit: I think if you can learn how to get the timing down so you're efficient in when you feed, that would probably go a really long way.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mr.Beeman said:


> A local news channel tested our local store bought "Honey". Check out the results on our FB page below.
> 
> Happens more frequently than you think.


Please don't force me to go to Facebook in order to see what you could have Posted here. Thanks.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> I personally have never noticed anything that looked like old feed being move up into supers. Not proof of course, but observation is what I have.


In this case, unless you color your syrup, observation isn't very useful. I don't know how you would tell the difference between thin clear nectar and syrup.

My opinion is that if you feed, there's going to be some syrup in your honey. Even if you don't feed, there's probably a little bit. Remember soda-can honey, and bees will rob the hives of other beekeepers. But I think if the OP is reasonably conscientious, the amount will not be significant.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Speaking of "soda can honey", has anyone actually seen honey bees coming out of soda cans? I have seen plenty of yellow jackets coming out of soda cans tossed into open trash cans, but never saw any honey bees.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

Where I am there is virtually no fall flow. If you want to harvest honey from your hives here, and not feed later, you will be able to start anew in the spring because virtually all of your bees will be dead come spring.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Speaking of "soda can honey", has anyone actually seen honey bees coming out of soda cans? I have seen plenty of yellow jackets coming out of soda cans tossed into open trash cans, but never saw any honey bees.


A near neighbor puts cans in the driveway to be driven over and smashed, and during the dearth I have seen bees - mine no doubt - foraging from them. I've also seen honey bees around the dumpsters at the county waste collection center - thankfully a good distance from my apiary. Good reasons to extract before serious dearth sets in.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If someone discards a can with a drop of mountian dew in it anywhere near your apiary during the honey season then THAT is in YOUR honey.

Yes. But they usually don't show much interest in pop (not enough sugar) and there aren't many empty cans around my house.

> Can you guarantee absolute purity then? No? Then you just have to hope for the best and pretend I guess.

They might be gathering some fruit juice or some coolaid someone threw out, it's true. But probably it's generally not as inviting as nectar and people have a habit of putting food coloring in their food...

>Again, any scientific evidence about the situations where this might happen? That would be helpful.

It's not hard. Color you syrup distinctively enough and you'll see it get moved around. All the old comb honey producers (C.C. Miller, G.M. Doolittle) and even some of the more modern ones (Carl Killion, Richard Taylor) counted on the bees to move the honey up out of the brood nest into the supers. It has been observed, literally, for a hundred years or more.

>The OP wasn't asking how to cheat - which of course happens - but how to conscientiously avoid contamination.

I understand.

>Best practices are the tools we have to work with, and I suspect that when they are utilized any accidental contamination is below the level of detection by all but the most sensitive tests. Just like that air I mentioned.

The air is so far out of the ballpark, I will simply ignore that... but how much gets into the supers is directly proportional to how much is in the brood nest when you add the supers.

>Anyone who thinks that Their honey is as pure as a newborn baby's soul is probably pretending or delusional. But if you are trying to do the right thing then it is probably pure enough for any earthly standard. 

I know a lot of people with standards it won't meet... thousands as a matter of fact...

>This is the part that's nagging at me.
So do you feed your bees?

Sure. I feed them whenever they need it. Last time I fed them was six years ago. It was dry sugar. I pulled it off as soon as things were blooming. If they are in danger of not making it through the winter or of starving, I feed them. But that is an emergency provision, not a method of management. In a typical year I do not feed at all or I steal capped honey from hives that have excess and give it to hives that need it.

>A good beekeeping tool might be a handy honey monitoring device, to tell the exact non-honey sugar content in the supply.

Yes it would.

>Edit: Wanting more pure honey through less feeding probably would mean you have to leave more honey frames in the hives for the bees instead of taking them.

Exactly. But then you dont' have to make syrup, haul it to the yards, feed it, deal with the robbing it sets off. Deal with the ants it brings. Deal with the diseases that come with messing up the microbes in their guts.

>Edit edit: I think if you can learn how to get the timing down so you're efficient in when you feed, that would probably go a really long way. 

Yes, the less syrup in the brood nest when you add the supers the more pure your honey will be.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How do you keep your honey pure? What makes you think that your honey is pure to begin with?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

rhaldridge said:


> In this case, unless you color your syrup, observation isn't very useful. I don't know how you would tell the difference between thin clear nectar and syrup.


I THINK I can tell the difference, because what I am talking about is when all of the hives are bringing in significant amounts of identical nectar at the same time. Also, I'm not talking about when they are actually in the process of being fed - so it would have to be thick cured feed being moved out of previously capped comb. Anyway, after the end of November I feed dry sugar except perhaps a quart or three of syrup per hive during fair weather early in the late winter brood build up. Also, until I add excluders (toward the end of the nectar flow this year) they usually raise some brood in them - so why would they be moving old syrup up if there even was any left to move?

This is all anecdotal observation though. It would be interesting if someone did a study where the honey in the supers is tested.

I think I'm going to get some food coloring and find out how best my practices are.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> I think I'm going to get some food coloring and find out how best my practices are.


That will be an interesting experiment!

I've tried not to feed at all, though in a couple instances I felt I couldn't avoid it without endangering the colony. But that's amounted to feeding new nucs and package a bit when just starting out. I think adulteration might be more of a problem when fall feeding to reach weight is part of a beekeeper's routine. Last fall when I checked my two hives in NY, one was clearly underweight, and I brought it back to FL. The other was not real heavy, with a deep and two mediums, and the upper medium not completely full, but I left it to see if it would be enough. After the brutal winter they had up there, I was sure it would be dead. But to my great surprise, it survived, and was brooding up nicely in late April. It was weird. I didn't wrap it, and I left the top entrance completely open. Beginner's luck, I'm sure.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

"If you ever feed a drop of syrup then some of it is in your honey".

I'm with MB on that one. And Lauri doesn't have to worry about it because she doesn't remove any honey.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

> Sure. I feed them whenever they need it. Last time I fed them was six years ago. It was dry sugar. I pulled it off as soon as things were blooming. If they are in danger of not making it through the winter or of starving, I feed them. But that is an emergency provision, not a method of management. In a typical year I do not feed at all or I steal capped honey from hives that have excess and give it to hives that need it.


Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. If you don't feed your bees, do you take much honey from your hives? I imagine your climate is cold like ours. They're stuck in there for months. 

But I have to say, I have had the same sugar patties in there for an entire year - they really don't touch it much, and same goes for the pollen patties. When I went into my Russian surviving hive the other day, I finally took the sugar and pollen patties out of there (okay, their pollen patty was pretty much gone, but it had been in there for months and months) -- our dandelions, etc. are in bloom and they're bringing in pollen so I'm pretty sure they're all set. The deceased Italians had a lot of honey in their hive but they were probably 3/4" from the supply and died off. 

I'm pretty sure the old timers at the bee club all agree, I remember one of them saying: YOU HAVE TO FEED YOUR BEES. 

I guess it's a controversial matter, just like whether to treat for mites or not.

It's a toughie. I'm inclined to be a minimalist on all fronts, and a purist when it comes to honey, etc. Then again, I don't want them to die off.

The food coloring sounds like a great experiment, if anyone tries it, I hope they post results here.

Edit: I have seen my bees on the chicken feed before. That may mean I am eating chicken feed.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Mating nuc frame:
Naturally collected honey on the top and sides, fortified sugar syrup feed stored in center from late fall feeding. Of course I know the history behind this frame. Taste test was striking. Both sweet, honey was almost overwhelmingly flavorful. Capped feed center was tasteless in comparison. 










If a person was to extract this, no one would ever know. That's the beauty of being a do it your self'er. You know for sure.

Just like the rat or mice droppings I occasionally find after winter in my top feeders. I clean and sanitize them before they go on the hives. I know for sure nothing is gross or a poor quality product. Right up till the time I see my bees congregating around the compost/ manure pile that is.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. If you don't feed your bees, do you take much honey from your hives? 

I try to leave somewhere between one and two frames of honey per frame of bees going into winter. That means in a bumper crop year I take 200 pounds of honey per hive. In a bad year I feed and harvest nothing. In a moderate year I might get somewhere between 20 and 60 pounds of honey per hive.

>I imagine your climate is cold like ours. They're stuck in there for months. 

Generally six months with nothing blooming, yes. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

> But I have to say, I have had the same sugar patties in there for an entire year - they really don't touch it much, and same goes for the pollen patties.

I have only feed pollen substitute patties once. I wasn't impressed. I've fed real pollen patties once. I wasn't impressed. I've open fed real pollen in the fall in a failed fall flow and that did well.

> When I went into my Russian surviving hive the other day, I finally took the sugar and pollen patties out of there (okay, their pollen patty was pretty much gone, but it had been in there for months and months) -- our dandelions, etc. are in bloom and they're bringing in pollen so I'm pretty sure they're all set.

They don't have much interest in pollen substitute when there is real pollen available.

>I'm pretty sure the old timers at the bee club all agree, I remember one of them saying: YOU HAVE TO FEED YOUR BEES. 

Sometimes.

>I guess it's a controversial matter, just like whether to treat for mites or not.

Obviously. And obviously anyone who says I have to feed every spring and fall or I have to treat is wrong. I don't have to and I don't.

>It's a toughie. I'm inclined to be a minimalist on all fronts, and a purist when it comes to honey, etc. Then again, I don't want them to die off.

Never send them into winter with insufficient stores. Feed if you have to. But I very seldom have to. I don't harvest until the fall flow is over and if it failed I may not harvest very much and if the fall flow was really good I may harvest a lot. But I almost never have to feed.

>Edit: I have seen my bees on the chicken feed before. That may mean I am eating chicken feed

They don't make honey out of chicken feed, they make bees out of chicken feed. If you eat bees, then you may be eating chicken feed after it has been through three biofilters. The first was the yeast that ate the feed. The next was the bacteria that ate what the yeast made of it, and then a nurse bee digested it and secreted royal jelly which it fed to a larvae which digested it and turned it into a bee. Nothing recognizable as chicken feed is left at this point...


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> They don't have much interest in pollen substitute when there is real pollen available.


You need a better recipe, my friend. Unless mine are just little piggies, they take up my protein mix very well, even when pollen is plentiful. 

Why would I feed protein when there is lots of natural pollen? Stronger Growth in nucs and lots of royal jelly in cells for better larva for grafting out of breeder queen colonies.. 
I'm not easily impressed, and it impresses me. 



















Keep it soft.. Brewers yeast in the mix is the key to patties that don't get hard. I'll post my recipe if someone wants it.










Why do they love it? It's different and a good addition to pollen and easily available to nurse bees.

With a screened inner cover, I can crack the lid and see the 'Ring around the protein patty' and don't have to look any farther. They are going to town in the brood nest when I see them like this. All is well. 



















You don't always HAVE to feed, but it's good to know HOW to feed in case weather/ circumstances dictate it necessary. 

Supplimental feeding improves performance. It's just another management method. Keeping them alive or stimulating growth depends on the degree of implementation.
_
Remember what I do with my bees. I raise queens and have a LOT of colonies in one area. I do Not harvest honey. I feed my bees and make nucs with honey frames._

Feeding or not- should be determined by your carrying capacity, specific circumstances, your goals and needs.

My method and plan for feeding has gotten me quickly to where I want to be without buying bees. Since I'm not getting any younger, it was a good choice for me to accomplish something in a shorter period of time for less money and produced a better product than the alternative.


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## Beeonefarms (Nov 22, 2013)

wildbranch2007 said:


> ok Crazy Roland, you got me, I googled ISCIRA and all I came up with is a war game?
> World of Warcraft · Community · Iscira @ Outland · Iscira. Starcaller


Internal Standard Isotope Ratio Analysis... but Wow is way more fun.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Lauri, your bees look great. But... have you ever wondered if there might be an eventual downside to artificial feed?


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Beautiful photos, Lauri. And that honey is making me hungry.

My pollen patties were a pollen/sugar winter combo (commercially made). But like I said, they really haven't shown much interest. I had also ordered from Brushy Mountain a bunch of their (heavy) pollen patties a year or 2 back, and they still sit in the freezer because they never get consumed in the hive. It might be that there's a lot of natural pollen available around here.

We grow buckwheat patches in the summer. Last summer the bees were on that constantly, pretty much the entire summer. Can't wait to get that going again. Growing bee food sources is one way to look at "feeding your bees."

"I feed my bees. I grow them buckwheat, and I don't mow the dandelions or the asters. I also plant fruit trees and a bee bee tree..."


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

rhaldridge said:


> Lauri, your bees look great. But... have you ever wondered if there might be an eventual downside to artificial feed?


The more experience I get and the more established my hives get, I the less I feed. When I _do_ feed it is for very specific reasons. I don't consider it 'artificial. I consider it a supplement to natural feed. 
Although it doesn't apply to me, because I am no where near commercial agriculture, feeding supplementally may be beneficial for some to _limit _the consumption of contaminates in natural forage when pesticides, fungicides, etc. exposures are present. Any time you have a single food source, you risk over exposure if it badly contaminated. A diet with a good _variety_ of feed will limit the severity of that kind of single source effect.

Kind of like growing & harvesting your own food and reducing your exposures to the crud the the grocery store they are calling 'food' these days. 

Just my way of thinking, though. Which is generally different than most people inch:


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here is an example of feeding for a specific purpose.

If I feed my large hives fortified syrup in fall, even though they have plenty of capped honey, they will respond by doing this:
They raise a good crop of young bees to go into winter & fill empty cells with open feed to cluster on over winter. 










But the neat trick is-once they have accomplished that, if you also slap on an extra box, they will lightly draw out all the those new frames for you. 10 deep frames all drawn with new clean wax..ready for spring checkerboarding and swarm prevention management. Priceless. Nice for making up spring nucs too.

It puts the bees to work during a time they don't have a lot going on..and they can become a little pesky late fall with nothing to do. (Usually No fall flow to speak of in my area)











You have to have a feel for feeding so your timing is right and you don't overfeed. Getting new frames drawn is a big reason for feeding for me. Especially if I am asking them to do it when there is no flow.
I don't mind if the_ comb_ is made from syrup, but I want them filled with pure honey.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Lauri - those photos are awesome. What kind of camera is that?

Getting a feel for it certainly does seem to sum it up. For some I think that comes quicker than for others.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> Lauri, your bees look great. But... have you ever wondered if there might be an eventual downside to artificial feed?


Such as? Bees that won't forage?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

My protein recipe is shown on post # 15..with photos and of course Beesource type discussion 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...cts-like-Mann-Lake-Ultra-bee&highlight=recipe

Lauri's protien patty recipe:
25# cane sugar
2 quarts cold water
2 quarts apple cider vinegar
1-2 cups olive oil- depending on your desired fat content
a sprinkle of electrolytes, about 1 tsp.
about 1 T Citric acid*
1 tsp ascorbic acid*
splash of Mann Lake Pro health or other essential oil of choice
Mix these ingredients in a five gallon bucket, mix well with a drill and paint mixer paddle.
Add:
15 cups brewers yeast..mix well
add a few cups at a time:
...aprox 15 cups Mann Lake BEE PRO 
(Dry ingredient measurements are approximate, I just dump it in a bit at a time with a big scoop)

Mix should be thick like peanut butter cookie dough. If it is not thick enough, just add more dry ingredients. Too thick and it will dry out in the hive. Too thin and it will drip through the frames
Let it stand an hour or so to thicken. I scoop it right onto the top bars in the hives with a big- one cup ice cream scoop. 2 scoops for big hives, 1 scoop for nucs, 1/2 scoop for mini nucs, but only after the newly mated queen starts laying. They won't take it up unless there is brood to feed.

Here is my source for these acids in bulk:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0039CZIOY/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003EE5MZC/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i03?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I get my dry Beepro and Brewers yeast at Mann Lake.

Be sure to use real apple cider vinegar..not apple cider _Flavored _vinegar, There is a big difference. I believe apple cider flavored vinegar is made from grain, while pure apple cider vinegar is made from apples.

You can read about that here in post # 8, but a few posts before and after also address the vinegars benefits.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290641-My-recipe-method-for-sugar-blocks


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

This might do it sqkcrk....

http://fox17online.com/news/stories/whats-really-in-your-honey/#XxD7DzV1YHVOduIY.01


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Mr. Beeman. Now I am really depressed. I think I will raise my prices again. It has been a while.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Ever since this story aired, my honey sales have increased dramatically. I (should I say the bees) may not be able to keep up with the demand.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Such as? Bees that won't forage?


I have lots of bees that won't forage. 

Newly made nucs who _have_ no foragers because they all were allowed to fly back to the old hives. The young bees remaining are receptive to direct release of a virgin queen and need feed until they are old enough to forage on their own. It usually takes a gallon of 1:1 to get them started.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

> Such as? Bees that won't forage?


Obesity.  Pretty soon they'll be ordering cable and Dominos.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh Bee City.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Better than: Oh Beehive!


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Such as? Bees that won't forage?


There seems to be a downside to artificial human feed. And we're somewhat domesticated.

If you were to feed cheetahs Spam, there might come a day when they weren't as healthy as cheetahs fed on the diet they evolved to eat.

I don't see why bees would be any different than any other animal. 

If my bees were going to starve if I didn't feed them sugar, I'd feed them sugar. I just wouldn't expect them to do quite as well as they would on nectar.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> and of course Beesource type discussion 

In the spirit of 'Beesource type discussion', I am providing a link to an earlier "feeding/lazy bees" thread: 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?289276-Does-feeding-lead-to-lazy-bees

308 posts, and that is now a _closed _thread.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

How do you keep you honey pure? We run lots of singles and typically they aren't left with much more than an average of around 20 lbs. of honey in late summer. The rest of their winter and early spring stores is from supplemental feed. That, depending on the year, can amount to another 20 to 50 lbs. per colony. In the final approximate 2 months prior to the main flow up north, though the feed is long gone and they are living primarily off of the Texas flows of crimson clover, yaupon, wisteria, blackberries and privet. These are darker honeys and a stark contrast to the northern white honey that comes later. I mention this because all this honey is in the brood chamber and under the excluders that we place on them before supering for the northern flow. I have NEVER seen this honey show up in the extracting room and it would be blatantly obvious if it was (think food coloring here folks). My assumption is that if I can't see any honey that has been relocated above the excluder into extracting supers it is even more unlikely to think that they might move some of their previous winter stores (if any still exists) into honey supers months later. Yes, we do occasionally feed out of necessity in the weeks preceding a flow but not when supers are on. Reputable honey packers are using this type of testing to screen for adulteration:
http://www.siratech.us.com/services/honey/
I have never had a sample flagged for additional testing and I have had many tested. Sure, there are no doubt cases where some beekeepers are blatantly feeding large amounts of syrup with extracting supers on, but that's intentional and better used as an example for a thread with a title more like "what's a good way to adulterate honey".


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

For me, I've always been suspect of the actual purity of any honey crop, especially any that are harvested in or around any human habitation.

I know that perhaps in some locations the bees may refrain from harvesting undesirable human waste and food byproducts, etc., adding them to their honey harvest. 

I've kept honey bees for nearly fifty years, and in Southern California, Washington state, Ohio, Virginia, Florida, New Mexico, and now Southern Arizona. In all those various locations, at one time or other, I've always seen honey bees collecting man-made food scraps/food byproducts. Most often I saw honey bees scavenging in waste receptacles and collecting soda remnants, even remnants of diet sodas, and many other food remnants containing various amounts of different ingredients, especially those containing sugars. Especially popular seem to be the feed from humming bird feeders. And, in my current location, more natural yet still undesirable, the fruit juices from assorted _Opuntia _species (and there are many), regularly adulterate the hives and honey if the hives aren't monitored closely and the crop harvested as soon as the flow has ended, or nearly so. Other locations, honeydew from aphids had been included in the undesirable substances collected avidly by honey bees and added to their honey hoard.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I've been thinking about this some more, and it occurs to me that when I put the first honey supers on, if I don't lure the bees up with a frame they are already working on - when do you start seeing nectar being stored in those completely empty supers? When a bloom starts, and the weather is fit for foraging. So we are supposed to believe that what is going on is that the bees wait for the flow and then start moving old feed from the brood chamber to the supers? I don't buy it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

David LaFerney said:


> I've been thinking about this some more, and it occurs to me that when I put the first honey supers on, if I don't lure the bees up with a frame they are already working on - when do you start seeing nectar being stored in those completely empty supers? When a bloom starts, and the weather is fit for foraging. So we are supposed to believe that what is going on is that the bees wait for the flow and then start moving old feed from the brood chamber to the supers? I don't buy it.


I don't either David. I have seen thread after thread here on Beesource from folks puzzled why their bees aren't moving any honey upstairs. The reason is because it requires a good honeyflow to for bees to move into light comb and an even better one for bees to move through an excluder. If you are trying to get them to move into foundation it's even more difficult. Supplemental feeding because your bees are short on stores just ain't gonna get it done. In almost all cases, to adulterate a honey crop requires feeding with a purpose and at unrealistic ally high volumes.
This thread isn't about what is the best feed it's how you ensure the purity of your honey crop and I can do it year after year with thousands of hives. It's far simpler for folks with just a few hives. Check your hives for stores, look around you at the prospect for a flow, check the weather forecast and leave your extracting combs in the building until you can see a flow is in early stages. Look for "white work" and loose honey in the burr comb of the top bars. When you do, there's yer sign. Super em up, don't let them run short on room. What you get (as long as you aren't extracting comb out of the brood nest) will most assuredly be pure honey.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks Jim. As usual, your insight from years of professional experience is always informative and valuable.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

> Check your hives for stores, look around you at the prospect for a flow, check the weather forecast and leave your extracting combs in the building until you can see a flow is in early stages. Look for "white work" and loose honey in the burr comb of the top bars. When you do, there's yer sign. Super em up, don't let them run short on room. What you get (as long as you aren't extracting comb out of the brood nest) will most assuredly be pure honey."


You make it sound so easy!  Okay, here's the big difference I think between new beekeepers (and there are many of us!) and super experienced beekeepers. Who tells you this stuff? No one verbalizes it. The questions I would have, and I don't expect them to be answered here, is: how exactly do you determine when a "flow" is coming? What's "extracting comb?" (honey supers?) By "white work" you mean they start building new comb? On top of the frames? "Loose honey" in the burr comb - hmm. That's a toughie. These are exactly the things we need to learn as new beekeepers. And like I said, I think a lot of new beekeepers are probably eating sugar syrup and sharing it with friends and family.  MMM. This honey is good...

I know I haven't been doing it right. I haven't taken honey either, because I'm focusing on just getting the hang of everything so everything so far has gone back to the bees. But I don't want to take honey until I can get the timing right - that would mean, reducing my spring 4 medium super hive to probably 2 mediums. Then figuring out when the flow is, throwing on 2 medium supers, harvesting them asap after the flow is over (I assume), and then preparing for winter by supplying additional feed if necessary. (Do they get to overwinter on fall flow? Asters/goldenrod)

Until I get the hang of it, I just don't feel comfortable taking what I think but am not sure is honey.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Sorry Newbee. You make a good point and one that I should do a better job of addressing. Yes these determinations do take some experience. What we refer to as "white work" is whitish looking newly built comb that you can see on the very fringes of the comb. "Loose honey" in the burr comb is pretty easy to spot. Quite simply it looks like water droplets placed in open burr comb which (along with the white work) is easy to spot when you remove a lid. You can also confirm a flow by pulling a frame out of the brood nest and giving it a gentle horizon shake later in the day. If there is a flow in progress the nectar will readily fall out of the comb. So much comes from the experience of knowing the flows in your particular area and recognizing when bees are beginning to work those blossoms.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

I appreciate every post on this thread...it's a question I have often thought about. 

My personal choice has become that feeding syrup is the last of all choices, and then never to a hive of more than 2 frames of bees. I've built to the point where I can take honey frames from strong hives if I need to. I also have extracted honey from cut outs that I use for feed but that only in strong flows. 

What has convinced me in my own practices to stay away from syrup feeds is 2 things--I want bees to have their natural feed, as I do not consume syrup myself and don't buy it for my grandkids (any sugar drink).

The other reason is my customers. I can't tell you how often I have people tell me that this is the best honey they've ever had. This includes people who buy honey from other local beekeepers in my area. I can't prove this by any means, but I believe it's largely because I don't feed syrup.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

> as I do not consume syrup myself and don't buy it for my grandkids (any sugar drink).


That's how I feel too. I'm just not really into artificial foods, sweeteners, etc. I think what comes from nature is the most healthy. There are times when you have to feed (esp. since honeybees are not native here), but I think like you, if I have the honey frames, I'd rather give those back than to give processed sugar. But I don't make my living from honey either, so I have less to lose.


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## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

What about a new hive (nuc). I always thought you should feed new hive to get them to draw out comb (1:1). Should you not feed a new hive?


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

SallyD said:


> What about a new hive (nuc). I always thought you should feed new hive to get them to draw out comb (1:1). Should you not feed a new hive?


I've been referring to established, overwintered hives, not new ones. For the new package I'm getting soon, I have leftover frames of honey from a deadout that I'm going to give them. Plus, the comb is built up already, so that's a good head start. Otherwise, I don't think there's any way around feeding a new hive.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Yes, Mr. Lyon speaks like "The Bull of the Woods", an old experienced beekeeper. After a while you just (think you) know when and what to do. Unfortunately, lately some of us old timers have been caught with our pants down by conditions never seen before.

Crazy Roland


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What about a new hive (nuc). I always thought you should feed new hive to get them to draw out comb (1:1). Should you not feed a new hive? 

If there is no nectar coming in and they have no stores, they will starve if you don't feed them. If there is nectar coming in, then feeding has more downsides than upsides. Feeding sets off robbing, brings ants, drowns bees and upsets the microbial balance of the colony... I don't see an upside if there is nectar available.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >What about a new hive (nuc). I always thought you should feed new hive to get them to draw out comb (1:1). Should you not feed a new hive?
> 
> If there is no nectar coming in and they have no stores, they will starve if you don't feed them. If there is nectar coming in, then feeding has more downsides than upsides. Feeding sets off robbing, brings ants, drowns bees and upsets the microbial balance of the colony... I don't see an upside if there is nectar available.


Again with the absolute statements. Feeding during a nectar flow usually isn't needed, but it also doesn't often set off robbing - at least not in my backyard. Some feeders drown bees, and some don't - I use bucket feeders, and they don't. Ants are often present, but not usually a problem for otherwise healthy hives - again in my yard. 

I'll tell you what IS bad for bees - malnutrition. Our dearth usually begins early in June and runs until Maples bloom the following March without much of a break most years. New beekeepers around here who embrace the "feeding is bad" philosophy usually don't have a lot of success.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

> Our dearth usually begins early in June and runs until Maples bloom the following March without much of a break most years.


Only 2 months or so without a dearth? No wonder beekeeping is so difficult! I realize every area is different. Right now the dandelions are out all over. I'm sure that's not the only source out there, but I wonder if this is considered a "flow." This is why the fact that my new Russian package is delayed until early June is bothering me - because they are missing out on this. If your dearth begins in early June, our dearth must be here by end of June, and that new package is not going to have much available....


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Only 2 months or so without a dearth? No wonder beekeeping is so difficult! I realize every area is different. Right now the dandelions are out all over. I'm sure that's not the only source out there, but I wonder if this is considered a "flow." This is why the fact that my new Russian package is delayed until early June is bothering me - because they are missing out on this. If your dearth begins in early June, our dearth must be here by end of June, and that new package is not going to have much available....


More like 3 months, but it's not hard to get the picture. Come July-August you have very large hive populations and almost nothing coming in. If you just let nature take it's course you go into the fall build up with malnutritioned bees which are more susceptible to parasites and the associated diseases. Those bees are expected to rear a new generation of bees that will survive through the winter? Then people wonder why their bees die in February.

Try not feeding with any kind of living creature from turnips to cattle and the results are usually similar - you probably won't get much out of it - and your livestock won't be very happy. Yes you need to exercise some judgement and develop a skill set, and yes in certain locations with experience you can probably be successful with minimal feeding. 

Feeding is just a tool. Just because you have a hammer doesn't mean that you go around whacking everything all the time, but when you need to drive a nail it's just the thing. Even then if you don't bother to develop the required skill and judgement you can do a lot of harm even when using the right tool for it's intended use. So because of the very real risks involved in using a hammer are you going to tell beginning carpenters that they really shouldn't use a hammer unless it's an emergency?


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

We have a ton of goldenrod and asters that the bees are on in late summer/early fall. Would that be enough to overcome the earlier dearth period and build them up for fall, alone, without feed?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You should join a local association and get to know some experienced local beekeepers - they will be able to tell you much more about your local conditions than anyone.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

The problem is everyone in the bee club has a different opinion. 

I'll ask again tomorrow night.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If your fall flow is not sufficient to build up winter stores then the standard practice is to feed heavy syrup to top them off. Your local beekeepers will be able to tell you when you should start and stop this process and how heavy your hives need to be. 

It's all a learning experience and eventually you will be able to your experienced opinion to all of the others. The reason there are many ideas about how and what to do is that there are many ways to do it which work. Even more ways that don't. 

Listen to people who have successfully done it in your area, not the ones who have watched a lot of videos from all over the world about it. A successful experienced beekeeper from your town can give you way better advice than anyone 5 states away.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

NewbeeInNH said:


> The problem is everyone in the bee club has a different opinion.
> 
> I'll ask again tomorrow night.


They'll still have different opinions. Some may have different opiniopns from when you asked them last.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

NewbeeInNH said:


> We have a ton of goldenrod and asters that the bees are on in late summer/early fall. Would that be enough to overcome the earlier dearth period and build them up for fall, alone, without feed?


Not last year it wasn't. Not much of a goldenrod flow last year.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

David LaFerney said:


> New beekeepers around here who embrace the "feeding is bad" philosophy usually don't have a lot of success.


David, we see the same thing every year with our newer folks.
If it wasn't hard enough to teach beekeeping; now we have to UNTEACH all of the kockamame nonsense that the students hear "somewhere".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Kinda like beesource is it?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If you pull all the early honey and depend on the fall flow and it doesn't happen, then by the time the reality sets in it can be too late and cold for the bees to take enough syrup and have time to dry it down. It takes time too for the bees to move down in the hive so they are not forced to cluster on open syrup.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Feeding, it turns out, is a major topic to learn for new beekeepers. When, where, why, how, for how long. 

My guess after all the discussion is that it's best to start out beekeeping as a feeder. As you learn the ropes and your area and you know what's flowing when and how much, and can tell by looking in the hive how much is enough, then you can probably ease off on the feeding and begin a more timely but maybe less intensive approach to feeding. For some, that may mean none at all, but it probably takes experience to know when that is.

But then there's still the original dilemma, and that's: how to keep syrup out of your honey.

I imagine the southern and warmer climates don't have near the issues with feeding that we northerners do.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Different issues perhaps but still issues.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

NewbeeInNH said:


> can tell by looking in the hive how much is enough


There you go - do your inspections, decide how much is a minimum (my standard is 15 lbs total with both capped and open nectar available as a minimum at any time) and if it drops below that then feed until you bring it back up. If you see excessive amts of feed being stored in brood comb (except in fall when it is normal) then stop feeding. Never feed when honey supers are on. Rough rules of thumb, but they will get you along until you get a bit of experience. But especially do your inspections - otherwise you're just proceeding blindly.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Thank you! And thanks to all for your information in this thread. It's been really helpful!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

NewbeeInNH said:


> When, where, why, how, for how long.


Don't forget 'What' 

Protein is as importaint as carbs at times. 

Fortified-quality feed is better than bare bones.

You wouldn't feed a show horse a deficient diet. Not if you expect to achieve anything that is. It may keep him alive, however.

Personally, I strive to do better than just existing.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> You need a better recipe, my friend. Unless mine are just little piggies, they take up my protein mix very well, even when pollen is plentiful.


The fast food industry has spent large sums of money to come up with additives that make people crave their food. By and large these "foods" are not good for you. Coming up with a crack formula to get bees addicted to something they don't need may have some side effects. Just saying.

Michael, you said the bees will move honey all the time to clear space for the queen to lay. Isn't it likely that if you added a super after the flow started they would not move syrup to that super? I don't feed so it is not an issue for me but I would like to know if suppering correctly would avoid the adulteration.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Too funny Acebird. 

I wouldn't call brewers yeast, cider vinegar, olive oil, vitamins and electrolytes exactly a crack formula...But if you think so


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

NewbeeInNH said:


> I imagine the southern and warmer climates don't have near the issues with feeding that we northerners do.


That's for sure. My area has pollen collection year round. Worst dearth is July through mid September, worst because it's so hot and bees have to keep hives cool. They go through much more honey during this time than in winter dearth. 

I fed as needed the first two years, and at that time began calculating how much honey I had to leave behind in order not to feed. I also began leaving one hive, then two, with entire supers full to use if other hives needed help.

This spring I had a decision to make. Surplus was much less than the last 2 years. I currently have only 30 lbs of honey for customers until end of October. I could pull more honey and take the chance that they might make it until then, take a gamble. I decided to leave them on the heavier side and for the first time in 2 years, tell my current customers I'm out of honey until November. 

But it's as you mentioned, I also don't depend on the honey income. I'm a sideliner who loves beekeeping. I would not advise a new beekeeper not to feed. I WOULD advise to leave them plenty of honey until they learn how much bees use. And advise to be very selective on how they feed to prevent robbing.


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## Eddie Honey (May 30, 2011)

I'm helping a novice manage his hives. He started last year with 4 packages and did nothing but feed them sugar syrup. Three died over winter. This year he contacted me for help and I found at least 3 deeps and 2 mediums of capped sugar syrup and the one remaining double deep hive boiling over with bees. I split that hive into 3 nucs. I added an undrawn honey super to the mother hive and in 10 days there was a partial frame of capped sugar syrup in the formerly undrawn honey super. I conclude the bees either moved the syrup up to unclog the brood nest or robbed another hive of syrup. Robbing seems unlikely during this heavy flow we are in now.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Another thought about bees moving honey/syrup is that they spread it out to dehydrate it.

I asked at the bee club tonight about flows. Of the 3 people who responded, I pretty much got 3 different stories: one said right now but didn't mention any other flows, one said June and then fall, and one said from now through June. WHATEVER.

Guess I'm just gonna have to figure this one out on my own.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I don't usually feed my bees much after early spring, because as soon as there is any kind of nectar flow, they turn their noses up and the syrup sours and goes to waste. When I put my nice, clean empty supers on a few months later I assume the syrup is long gone. I can't guarantee the bees don't transfer any old syrup up to the supers but I kind of doubt it. I've never had a complaint about any of my honey, except when I'm out of it.

Edit: Around here the main flows are clover & alfalfa, sometime in June. Early ones are fruit trees & dandelions. Find out what you region has and just keep you eyes open. If the bees are working a known nectar plant, a flow is under way.* It varies here, and everywhere else I imagine, depending on how the spring progresses. * Plump abdomen-ed bees crashing onto the landing board is another good sign

I'm feeding my new package bees right now, but don't expect them to take syrup much longer. Spring MIGHT have finally arrived...


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

A few things I learned at the bee club tonight: Dandelion honey doesn't taste good; you can avoid syrup in the honey issues by taking your honey in early July (assuming you don't need to feed an overwintered hive by then) (and leaving enough for the bees in case there's a dearth later on); and Honey B Healthy will keep sugar syrup from souring.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Reputable honey packers are using this type of testing to screen for adulteration:
> http://www.siratech.us.com/services/honey/


It appears they are testing for a gross adulteration and then take if further if the honey is suspect. That means they are looking for crooks not the occasional adulteration from say bees moving honey. It would be possible for the beekeeper to cheat a little as long as he/she didn't get greedy with this type of testing. An AQL would be better taking a small sample of each lot and doing the full blown test to check levels.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> But if you think so


It is not what I think it is what you claimed. The bees will take your formula when fresh pollen is available. Very much the same reaction if you give your kids a choice between a candy bar and carrots, peas and spinach.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

NewbeeInNH said:


> You make it sound so easy!  ... how exactly do you determine when a "flow" is coming? What's "extracting comb?"


I agree with you it is a bit of a puzzle when you first start. I suspect a flow is coming when I see a sudden bloom from a specific plant. I determine the flow is on when I can smell the curing of the nectar standing 20 ft or better away from the hive. It may not be all that scientific but it is what I am using.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

There is a whole different nutritional dynamic going on with protein supplement than with natural pollen. Bees store pollen to process into bee-bread for later use - they *eat *supplement - not store it. So protein supplement contributes to the immediate nutrition of the adult bees, and to the brood whose food is produced by their bodies. 

You can speculate all you want about some future cumulative effect, but it's hard to argue with the results shown in Lauries pictures. I would guess that the cumulative effect of generations of healthy well nourished bees being raised by healthy well nourished bees is fairly obvious.

Everyone should just figure out what they believe in and works for them, and retire from the idea that since what you do is right - everyone else must be wrong and somehow kind of immoral or impure. It's animal husbandry not religion.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, you said the bees will move honey all the time to clear space for the queen to lay. Isn't it likely that if you added a super after the flow started they would not move syrup to that super?

They have had a limited space and you add space. So they move the stores that were in the bottom boxes up out of the way so they queen can lay more. Why wouldn't they move it? Their home just increased in size and they will use it.

>I don't feed so it is not an issue for me but I would like to know if suppering correctly would avoid the adulteration. 

Certainly when you feed, how much, when you add boxes etc. all plays into the outcomes. If you feed syrup some of it is going to end up in your honey. Ask the people who are allergic to corn syrup and so are eating honey what their experience is. All of those people I know will not buy honey from anyone who ever feeds corn syrup because they will have a reaction to it... it's the main reason some of them have started beekeeping.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

jim lyon said:


> Look for "white work" and loose honey in the burr comb of the top bars. When you do, there's yer sign. Super em up, don't let them run short on room.


jim, how many extracting supers do you place at the start of new white wax? do you have a rule of thumb for how much empty comb you have on the hive at any given time? do you place the empties and the top, bottom, or somewhere in between? many thanks.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Thank you for you thoughts Michael.

David who do you know that brings their bees to a vet and has their health checked out. Any tests done to confirm their health? It is a human characteristic to believe a well fed child is a healthy child, a well fed animal is a healthy animal. History has shown that a well fed child is one that eats real food not processed food and a well fed animal is one that eats natural food not man made food. There is no religion here. It is pure science.

I don't think Lauri's bees look any better than mine or survive any better than mine, yet I feed nothing. How do you explain that? Is it my treatment program keeping my bees alive or her treatment program keeping her bees alive?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> History has shown that a well fed child is one that eats real food not processed food and a well fed animal is one that eats natural food not food. There is no religion here. It is pure science.


I suspect that your dogs do not eat _*raw *_meat as their primary diet, yet that is what their "natural" food is. :no:

If you are not exclusively feeding your dogs _*raw meat*_, then you are feeding them with "man made food".



I think you have your _dogma _mixed up with your _science!_ :lpf:


:gh:

.


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## canadianrose (Feb 23, 2014)

> I suspect that your dogs do not eat raw meat as their primary diet, yet that is what their "natural" food is.
> 
> If you are not exclusively feeding your dogs raw meat, then you are feeding them with "man made food".


This is going off topic, but many people have switched their pets' food to raw or minimally processed meat and veggies precisely because their bagged kibble was affecting their pets' health. Please do not confuse what is common practise with what is right.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

One other issue with new beekeepers is that we're the last to know when to throw supers on, even though we know we're supposed to know. So last night at bee meeting, someone off the cuff mentioned putting supers on now. I thought my 4 mediums that I had on over winter were plenty, that's a lot of space. Well, she said, I have 8 on mine right now. (Dandelions galore out there)

-lightbulb- Guess I better put on 2 more today just to be safe. Apparently they can fill supers really quickly this time of year.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Acebird said:


> David who do you know that brings their bees to a vet and has their health checked out. Any tests done to confirm their health? It is a human characteristic to believe a well fed child is a healthy child, a well fed animal is a healthy animal. History has shown that a well fed child is one that eats real food not processed food and a well fed animal is one that eats natural food not man made food. There is no religion here. It is pure science.
> 
> I don't think Lauri's bees look any better than mine or survive any better than mine, yet I feed nothing. How do you explain that? Is it my treatment program keeping my bees alive or her treatment program keeping her bees alive?


What I said was this _"Everyone should just figure out what they believe in and works for them, and retire from the idea that since what you do is right - everyone else must be wrong and somehow kind of immoral or impure. It's animal husbandry not religion."_ 

Apparently that isn't clear enough so I'll try to put it more plainly - *I do not care* how you do or do not care for your bees. I do not think that you are immoral or impure or in any way evil for your beekeeping practices. I am happy that they are working out for you. I extend that to anyone who is not being overtly dishonest with their customers. I make the assumption that others would like to be done unto in this manner.

What I am trying to say is that I would like to be done unto (and others who feed and treat within customary common sense guidelines) as I try to do unto others. 

*When people ask me if I feed sugar I say yes. * Some folks pass on my honey because of that. Same goes for treating. Fair enough. So far I sell out every year anyway - so I'm satisfied 

I'm not going to pronounce your honey as impure sight unseen based upon some hypothetical possibility, and I request that the same courtesy be extended to me and my peers.

Get it?


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## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

I see 'Pure Honey" on labels in the stores....what exactly is pure honey. I see my bees fly far over the trees and bring back whatever is out there to make honey...can I call my honey "pure"? I have seen them around muddy creek banks and swimming pools....just what are they bringing back to the hive? Stuff that makes pure honey?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

It's alchemy. The bees transmute everything into pure honey. Except sugar - one (possibly imaginary) drop of that makes it all unclean.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Lauri, I hit you up for your recipe on FB, but perhaps you haven't seen my comment yet. But I'd appreciate you sharing when you get the time. ANY recipes you have used successfully, for that matter...

I add about a TBSP of ACV to a quart of 1:1 syrup, is this a good amount? I usually add 1/2 tsp of HBH too, more because I like the way it smells than because I think the bees "need" it. Feral bees seem to live just fine without it, but I bought it already based on the advice of a friend. Darn expensive stuff!



Lauri said:


> Too funny Acebird.
> 
> I wouldn't call brewers yeast, cider vinegar, olive oil, vitamins and electrolytes exactly a crack formula...But if you think so


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> If you are not exclusively feeding your dogs _*raw meat*_, then you are feeding them with "man made food".


I see you recognized your mistake and edited your post. You should look into what a wild dog will eat. It is not exclusively raw meat but it is primarily meat instead of man made cereal.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> instead of man made cereal.

You mean _grains _grown in a farmer's field? :scratch: Like corn?

Yes, grains in a can of dog food are processed, but any meat in a dog food can (or other package) is also _processed_. Not much difference that I see.



> I see you recognized your mistake and edited your post.

Yes Ace, I try to keep the errors out of my posts, and occasionally edit them after I realize I misspelled something. The evidence suggests that _you_, on the other hand, regularly have posts full of errors!


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## RedBarn (May 31, 2017)

needed to bump this for feeding for this fall.....


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## appalachianoutdoors (May 16, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >how do you keep straight if you might have sugar syrup or not?
> 
> Most people just pretend they don't know... don't ask, don't tell.


No truer words on Beesource.
True pure nectar based honey is from hives not feed sugar syrup and hopefully no hives in 2-3 miles being fed. But, sometimes feeding syrup or dry sugar is necessary in managing a hive for survival purposes. Feeding to increase honey production for resell as pure honey is just dishonest and deceptive.


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