# Introduce virgin queens of a different strain



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

In principle I will buy virgin queens from a resistant varroa strain in a notable amount in France. I need to go comfortable for this business. I lack filing some edges of this plan and I ask for your help and advice.

What should I watch and how to introduce virgin queens of a different strain, in order to maximize the acceptance rate? I thank your valuable help .


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Eduardo,

I think you're wise to be cautious on this. I found two years ago when trying to introduce virgins from a very different genetic source that introductions with those virgins was dramatically more difficult. That are lots of good discussions about introducing virgins on beesource. I suggest that you search to find one that will work on your scale.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I would use ammonium nitrate to introduce them. I get about 70% success with them and this method.

Lots of information in this thread.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?303679-Virgin-queens&highlight=ammonium+nitrate


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Eduardo,

As *AstroBee* and *camero7* pointed out, lots of info/debates on this forum about virgin introduction/use....

I'll just give you some of my observations I made this past year...

I do use a lot of virgins to start mini mating nucs. Most of them, are my own production so to speak. Some, I do get from outside. One reason I do like to get them from outside is simply for what they will bring/contribute to my DCA's with the drones they produce. 

On the ones I produce, I have a very good feel for their age...not so much for those that I buy. But still...regardless of where the virgin queen comes from, the "introduction" I follow is the same.

Even before 2014, I was playing with virgin queens in all kinds of scenarios...but talking about introductions, I found the easiest and most successful ( for me that is) way, was to start mini mating nucs with these virgins. One or two cups of young nurse bees, slightly sprayed with some light syrup, placed with a virgin queen in a mini nuc of your choice...provided with fondant/candy...closed in a placed at 15C-18C dark room for about 3-4 days. I do use a syringe with a long needle to squirt some water on the walls of these mating nucs, once a day. 

Then, on the evening of the 4th day, I place the nucs outside and let them do their thing.

Many ways to get the very young nurse bees...but, what I did do different this past year, was to get the nurse bees held in bulk, in the dark again, in a cool place while providing them with a frame or two of uncapped honey and at the same time feeding them light syrup from an upside down jar. 
The box I held the bulk of the nurse bees has screen on the sides, or even on the bottom...use what you have and improvise.

One or two days later, I placed a plywood box over the box, and gas the poor bees with CO2...for around 10 minutes. 

Then, with a cup, I scooped and I placed these "sleepy" bees into the nuc, take the virgin queen, dip her in some light syrup or honey, place her over the sleepy bees and that's it. In the dark cool place they go, and 3-4 days later let them fly.

Before 2014, I was not using CO2, but from now on I will. Love it. However, I still think that the young nurse bees are the key one way or another. 
CO2 use makes the operation much smoother, you crush less bees...much more "elegant" in my opinion.

To camero7 point, I think ammonium nitrate would also work, I have not used it personally...but a lot of folks in South America use it and swear by it.

Oh, and to paraphrase or maybe quote *Lauri*...I also think that virgin queens are a very underutilized resource in beekeeping.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I'd say for introducing virgins not from your own stock that may be less accepted than normal, Hopelessly queeness nucs,(Only capped brood) small colonies with* only young nurse bees.* Plenty of feed. 

You can introduce your new virgins in a shipping cage with candy release, but I find if I remove the attendants acceptance is faster. I did a test last summer and found even if caged for 10 days after hatching, the virgins appeared well mated and normal in every way. When you're shipping in virgins, that knowledge should take away some of the 'rush' to get them accepted. You should have plenty of time to do it successfully, even if the receiving colony is not receptive right away.

When you receive your virgins, I would give them a big drop of water, then a _small_ smear of honey. When it is all gone, another drop of water. Give them an hour or so to feed & clean the queen well, turn loose the attendants if you wish and install your virgin in the receiving colony, with the shipping cage as protection. She'll be well hydrated and well fed, ready to withstand some lacking care if the new bees are prone to give her the cold shoulder for a while.
Virgin queens, especially when less than 2 days old are very temperature sensitive, as compared with mated queens. Keep them warm and away from temp extremes.

Have you ever noticed the bottom side of the JZBZ shipping cage has a center plastic bar that easily snaps out to make an excluder? You can release your attendants, but if your virgins are small, they can get away too, so be careful. _Just remember to tape over the hole_ so separation from the new colony is still thorough. Great for larger mated queens though.
That opening is exactly 1/8".

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1150769_zpsd5b62c64.jpg

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1150770_zpsc1aa3480.jpg

I also make my cage candy with powdered sugar, a tiny bit of citric acid, electrolytes & vitamins, a tiny bit of Prohealth or essential oil for good scent and liquid consisting of equal parts water and cider vinegar. Tha candy smells great, but I make it for more nourishment than to help with acceptance. I shipped a queen last year who's attendants were excreting wax inside the shipping cage when they arrived. Thought that was interesting. That was a 2012 breeder queen shipped to Virginia and the customer said she started laying up a storm immediatly upon release.
I prep my queens to be shipped just like I do when I receive them. Drop of water, smear of honey and another drop of water. Then in the mail they go. Well hydrated and fed to withstand a couple days of neglect.

I have good luck with direct release with my own stock, but I find if I try to release a virgin queen and she is balled even slightly by just a couple bees, I'll never get any other nuc to accept her. It's like she has been marked for distruction. If they grab her legs or wings, remove her immediatly. If theire tongues are out, things are looking good.

When I hatch out my virgins in the incubator, if get a shrimpy runt, I will save her for a 'test' virgin for colonies if I am not sure of their receptiveness. If she is accepted without incident when direct released onto the side of a frame, I will just quickly take her away and give them a fat virgin. If the shrimp is balled, there is no real loss of a better quality virgin & I can so something different with the colony to make them more receptive.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Astrobee, here, portuguese breeders say iberiensis is a complicated bee to accept another queen be race. But the prestige of Mr. Kefuss work and the prices of virgin queens are very tempting. He also sell 10 days queen cells and 2 ou 3 days queen cells. Do you think that is a good alternative if I had to travel about 40 h (about 3000 Km) with them?

Camero what amount of AN you use in the smoker? Do you use any protective equipment because of the oxide formed? Do you have idea of ​​% average acceptance?

Apis maximus I think CO2 is the gas used in instrumental insemination, right? I have a good friend who starts making II and so he should have and give me a hand with CO2. Do you have idea of ​​% average acceptance?


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes it is used for II.

Acceptance in my case 100%...Now, before the "thought" police jumps on me, when I say acceptance I mean the mating nuc population after 1 week to 10 days after being put together by going "sleepy"...has build new comb, and my marked virgin is in place acting like she owns it and the bees act like a very cohesive unit...some by day10 are laying eggs already...some by day 15 and some, up to day 20 will do so. 

Mating success on the other hand, is a whole different story, but again, all things being equal, no difference when comparing with nucs and or hives provided with queen cells.

I will also mirror what *Lauri* just said in her reply...*young bees, placed in a hopelessly queen less situation* is the key to this virgin queen introduction business. A few ways to do it...and just like she described above, that is another way to do it.
In my opinion, even the presence of some capped brood has some residual queen pheromonal signature...so, in my way of thinking, when that is also removed from the picture, the odds of virgin acceptance go higher. 

Just my observation...because again, in some of the mating nucs, after I "steal" the matted queen, I do offer a virgin as a replacement, in the same manner that Lauri describes. And, being careful, it can for sure work.

I do however, like the odds and peace of mind going the "sleepy" way...


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Thanks Lauri. Not being a breeder of queens, I have learned a lot with you. The passion and attention you give to the small but important details have been a great school for me.

Apis maximus do you release the queen without cage? As the bees are sleeping I presume so, but nothing like be sure.
The box used to held the bulk of the nurse bees can be a type that is used for packages of bees? At the nucs with the sleeping bees and already with the queen do you put drawn frames or foundantion or both? Some days later can I give them a brood frame to boost the development?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

When you learn to rear your own, you have an good supply of guinea pigs to work with that cost you only a bit of your time. When you can do that & handle them regularly, you get a 'feel' for exactly what is needed for the situation at hand and exctly what you can and can't get away with. _That_ 'feel' is very hard to relay with just a few comments on a post. 

Good luck with your project though!
Hope I was able to help in some way.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, I do release the virgin on top of the sleepy bees. No cage.
The reason I dip her in honey or syrup is because these virgins are pretty quick to move or even fly. It cuts into the extra effort to go chase the virgin if she is inclined to pull a fast one on me.

The box/boxes I use for the bulk bees...one is a 5 frame nuc body I initially made to use as a queen less cell builder. I raised it up by using a wooden frame I made from 1x2 or wooden strips, which I covered with galvanized screen. It has a nuc migratory inner cover, also screened, that I place on top and on which I place an inverted jar to feed the bees. Being a nuc, I can easily add 1-2 frames of uncapped honey on which the bees will rest and sort of cling to...
The other one I have is a 10 frame Lang box with screened bottom and and screened migratory top. The bottom of the box is raised by 2 wooden pieces so that air can circulate under the bees also. 

The nucs I was describing, I start with empty frames to which I add a piece of wax foundation strip, aprox 1 inch wide.

In the setup I described, once the nucs are formed and flying, I do not add extra bees or frames to boost them. They do not need it. Not in my case.

Once the virgin is mated, you now have a mated queen. What you do with it from here on can open up a whole other chapter...but, now you have a freshly mated queen, that you can introduce to another hive...or you can just use the whole nuc to combine with another queen less hive...I mean the possibilities are many.

Going back to your original question... introducing virgin queen of maybe different strains...I assume you want to end up with a mated and ultimately laying queen. Once you accomplish that, the introduction/acceptance odds, change dramatically...in your favor. Well, in your new former virgin queen's favor.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

>Good luck with your project though! Hope I was able to help in some way.
Thank you Lauri. Of course you had help me! I'm sure that I'll learn a lot more from you. :thumbsup:

> Going back to your original question... introducing virgin queen of maybe different strains...I assume you want to end up with a mated and ultimately laying queen. Once you accomplish that, the introduction/acceptance odds, change dramatically...in your favor. Well, in your new former virgin queen's favor.
Yes Apis maximus. Is the beggining of my resistant bees program. If they have 50% of resistance feature, after mating with my muts drones, the bees wiil have 25%. I'll work with the % of Lauri.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

apis maximus said:


> Then, with a cup, I scooped and I placed these "sleepy" bees into the nuc, take the virgin queen, dip her in some light syrup or honey, place her over the sleepy bees and that's it. In the dark cool place they go, and 3-4 days later let them fly.
> 
> Before 2014, I was not using CO2, but from now on I will. Love it. However, I still think that the young nurse bees are the key one way or another.
> CO2 use makes the operation much smoother, you crush less bees...much more "elegant" in my opinion.


There's a youtube video on this CO2 technique. Sorry I don't have the link.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

That's okay Astrobee . I may not be great beekeeper, but to find things on the net I have some talent .


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

AstroBee and Eduardo,

Here is a link with the Germans doing a version of this. No CO2 in this particular one, but notice the bulk bee box that comes from the cold room. And in this particular case, these are not even exclusively nurse bees. They were shaken from regular hives. But staying hopelessly queen less and well fed, gorged on carbohydrates, these bees, given a virgin queen, will get with the program and start mating nucs just fine. What other chance do they have? 
Personally, I prefer doing it with nurse bees.

Just before filling up the mating nucs, see the spraying of the bees inside that bulk box, either with light syrup or simply water. Fill up the nucs...
Then, watch them taking the nucs inside the cold room. That is one way of doing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygS8m20ROQ4

Then, observe as they pull the virgin queens out of the roller cages that were emerging their cell builder...and then introduce them into the mini nucs after dipping them into the sweet stuff.. Then, they might go back in the cold room( like I like to do) or some take them to their mating yards right after introducing the Virgin.

Many ways to skin the proverbial cat...


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

For those of you that use CO2 do you run it in straight from CO2 cylinder. And for how long? How do you know the bees will be sleepy and not dead? CO2 is heavy so do you introduce it through the top of the box?
Must admit I would worry the bees would not wake up


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

And here is the French doing it...

First, handling some virgins and adding them into the mini nuc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aNBqeumDtA
It does not show the bees going sleepy before going into the nuc...but they are.

And here is one done by a Spanish fellow...These bees from the bulk box are sleepy indeed...They were exposed to CO2. Observe how motionless they are...no struggle for this guy to fill the nucs whatsoever. 
If these were freshly collected nurse bees, brought in right from the bee yard, you'd have to be fast...otherwise they would be crawling out and be making a mess. 
And again, virgin queens just dumped on top of the sleepy bees. Also, notice he's using two different kinds of mini nucs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aNBqeumDtA


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Those are interesting mating nucs. I take it the pellets and liquid they put in are feed of some sort. Also do they load bees in on the underside as it is an open box yet later it is apparent there are 3 sided foundationless frames in there. Neat system...do we have an equivalent in N. America?


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

WBVC said:


> For those of you that use CO2 do you run it in straight from CO2 cylinder. And for how long? How do you know the bees will be sleepy and not dead? CO2 is heavy so do you introduce it through the top of the box?
> Must admit I would worry the bees would not wake up


Yes, straight from the CO2 cylinder/tank via the regulator attached to the tank.
Around 10 minutes they are pretty sleepy but still some will crawl...by 15 minutes they are good to go...really sleepy....but, not dead. 

As you release the CO2 via the hose/tube passing through the wall of the box covering the bulk bees, you can also peek inside by lifting the cover box. Remember, the bees are inside the bulk box that has screened sides or at least a screened bottom, so you can see them if you wish...by lifting the solid wall box. 

Screened box, inside a solid wall box...nighty night!


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

WBVC said:


> Neat system...do we have an equivalent in N. America?


Yes...Mann Lake has something similar...and I'm sure others do too.
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/category/page62.html


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You did not mention how many virgins you are going to get.
So if it is 100s then you have to find 100 frames of about to hatch bees to make
a frame with #8 wire screen cloth to wrap 360* around the frame. First to brush off all the attaching bees off the
frame. After that pick a number of the youngest fuzzy bees that hatched into the hole of the wrapped frame and seal 
the hole with a push pin after the virgin is introduced inside. As more young bees hatch the virgin is safe and got accepted. 
The open nectar and honey on the frame will keep the virgin well feed for awhile awaiting for more young bees to hatch in the frame.
Don't pick the older young bees but pick the fuzzy new hatching ones will do. Make weaker nucs with 
all young hatching bees. I'm sure there is a lots of work but well worth it. And don't forget to feed too with patty and syrup.
Unwrap the #8 wire screen cloth in approximately 3 days or less after seeing the virgin got accepted. Be careful that the virgin might fly away when
got excited when unwrapping the screen cloth.

Disclaimer: 100% acceptance with a mated queen every time I use this method. Virgins I have not try before. But using the concept that newly hatched
bees will not bite the virgin bee, should work.


#8 wire screen cloth around a frame of emerging bees with a mated queen inside:


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

beepro said:


> I'm sure there is a lots of work but worth it. And don't forget to feed too patty and syrup.[…]Be careful that the virgin might fly away when got excited when unwrapping the screen cloth.


I am thinking to buy about 200 queens for me and a friend who is queens breeder, and has a set of skills and equipment that I have not (CO2, mating nucs, like the ones in the youtube vídeos). It will be a lot of work but with team work will be easier and will be a good opportunity for me to acquire skills which I have not. The young bees factor is consensual in all opinions, so for me this is a rule written in stone. Thank's Beepro for your guidelines.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Camero what amount of AN you use in the smoker? Do you use any protective equipment because of the oxide formed? Do you have idea of ​​% average acceptance?



I put about 2 tablespoons in the smoker, get it bellowing, put about 3-4 puffs at the entrance, pop the lid and give a good puff there. I do about 20 nucs at a time. Then go back to the first, pull the screen and lay the virgin [who will be asleep] on the top bar. Go to the next nuc, etc.

When they wake they tend to accept the virgin easier. I get about 70 - 75% success with this method. I use no protective equipment. The oxide is laughing gas but I avoid the smoke as much as possible...


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i've only one experience with introducing a virgin. she had just hatched about two hours prior to introduction. i pulled a frame of open feed, shook most of the bees off and placed the virgin directly over some cells of nectar. she instantly starting sucking up the feed. a couple of bees that were still of the frame came over to investigate. she exhibited submission to them as they checked her out. this just lasted a moment and then all of the bees went on about their business. i put the frame back in the hive, the virgin ended up getting mated, and all was well.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

*squarepeg*,

Good observation. Indeed, these freshly emerged virgin queens are very hungry. Also, they don't "smell" like an older virgin, and not even close to a mated queen. To the bees that see her for the first time, she is nothing but a freshly emerged bee.
So yes, making your own queens allows you to see these things close up and personal. 
That in itself is a fantastic way of starting to understand things...


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

Whatever route you go, I suggest feeding syrup along with it. It seems to put bees in a better mood.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> There's a youtube video on this CO2 technique. Sorry I don't have the link.


The folks from Malka Queens in action, using the CO2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxe3mV04kfM#t=65


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks Apis, That was the video I was referencing. Here's the same link, but starts at t=0.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxe3mV04kfM


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

camero7 said:


> pull the screen and lay the virgin [who will be asleep] on the top bar


Camero why do you put the queen asleep? To no fly away? Do you use also AN to put the virgin queen asleep? And also with se smoker? 

Apis to make bulk package bees does this video cover the main steps of the process https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGFEfABe5yU? What is your opinion?


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

A method which is considered fail proof for introducing mated queens and would probably work well for virgins is the hatching brood above a divide board (above a strong hive). the hive below keeps things warm up stairs while the hatching bees, as young as they are as they hatch, naturally accept the queen. At some point more bees can be added.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Apis to make bulk package bees does this video cover the main steps of the process https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGFEfABe5yU? What is your opinion?


Not sure I understood your question...

They are shaking bees. Hard to tell if what goes into the bulk are a majority of nurse bees. The way the video is made, I am not sure.
But, as they do, they spray them with water or sugar water. Once in the screened box, they can take them inside, and do the CO2 thing to make mating nucs, or just use the bulk bees to maybe sell, or whatever else they need to do.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

apis maximus said:


> Hard to tell if what goes into the bulk are a majority of nurse bees.


I imagine that is because it is seen that one of the frames have much brood. But actually it is not clear to all of them. Here's what we usually do is two shakes. In the first shake older bees that do not interest us fall in the hive. Then we do the second shake more vigorous into the box where we want the new bees. The principle behind this technique is that the new bees cling strongly to brood frames and not fall at first less vigorous shake.

As in Portugal there is no tradition in the production of bee packages, this is another area that I'm learning how to do it properly. The video seems to me to describe the main steps in the preparation of packages.

For my particular case of preparation of packages of young bees, this procedure of the video associated with care to capture as much as possible new bees is what to do in your opinion or is there some way that I am not contemplate and that can modify a decisive role in quality in the production of packages with young bees?


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> For my particular case of preparation of packages of young bees, this procedure of the video associated with care to capture as much as possible new bees is what to do in your opinion or is there some way that I am not contemplate and that can modify a decisive role in quality in the production of packages with young bees?


Eduardo,

If I was to make some *mating nucs* that will receive virgin queens, and I would want to maximize the odds of acceptance in my favor, then I would go for shaking as many nurse bees that I can. Many ways to do it, I have no doubt.

The way I would do it: 

Identify the colonies you will use to shake the young bees from. They need to be strong and in expansion mode. Go into them, place the queen and the majority of the capped brood bellow a queen excluder, and the majority of the uncapped brood above the queen excluder. 

Come back in a few hours, or next day and start shaking only the bees from the box, above the queen excluder.

That way, you're not worried about the queen. She is now under the queen excluder.

The majority of the young bees will be in the top box, feeding and keeping the open brood warm. 
I mean, you will manipulate the hive one way or another, but the way I am thinking, technically you only shake the bees once. 
Yes, you are correct, younger nurse bees cling to the frames much stronger than the older bees, and yes that is one way to differentiate younger bees from older bees. But by having them in the top box, you don't have to differentiate anything. 

Just shake away. 

If you and your friend are getting ready to make 200 nucs to place virgins in them, then, the last thing you want is to guess where the queen is, and which bees cling better or worse to the combs while you try to shake bees...No?

If I was to make *packages*, with just plain bulk bees to sell, I would not care what bees I shake, as long as I do not shake the queen.

I hope I did not confuse the issue too much.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

>If you and your friend are getting ready to make 200 nucs to place virgins in them, then, the last thing you want is to guess where the queen is, and which bees cling better or worse to the combs while you try to shake bees...No?

Thank you very much Apis.:thumbsup:
Of course you are right. The method you suggest is described in a clear and crystalline form. Take this opportunity to say that I had already used this procedure you suggest several times, albeit with different objectives. I also like to do things this way, so that I do not have to find queens at the time of action. Our queens are hard to find and our bees are nervous in the frames. The queen excluder is very helpful in these moments to previously confine the queen in one known box.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Camero why do you put the queen asleep? To no fly away? Do you use also AN to put the virgin queen asleep? And also with se smoker?


The beekeeper I learned this method from always puts the virgin to sleep so I just followed his methods. He introduces hundreds of virgins each year with this method, claims 80% success. The virgin sleeps with this method and she's easy to put on the top bars, won't fly away. Yes, put a couple tablespoons of AN in the smoker, get it puffing and putting out copious amounts of smoke and start smoking the nucs. This will do about 20 - 30 nucs before you need to recharge the smoker with AN.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

There is a saying in horse training, you should ask yourself before you get on:

"Is he WITH me or AGAINST me"

I always think of that when working with the bees. Especially if I am asking them to do something specific. 
If the horse has the signs of being defiant, (Head high, ears back, tail swishing, eyes bugged out) I'd reinforce my position as the leader by working him a bit until he showed me the signs of submission. Dropping his head, licking his lips, soft quiet eye, etc. 

Bees will do the same thing if you just learn to recognize their language. Get rid of the defiant bees with their eyes bugged out, ears back & stingers 'swishing' (Older foragers) and make use of the younger more cooperative bees with the cooperative 'quiet eye'

Photo shows young bees after I shook or brushed them into a box for collection. I give them a single frame of open brood to give them something to cling on to and allow all the older foragers fly back to the old hive(s). Close up the hive, but do NOT confine them. Do this in late morning on a warmish day so the bees that are prone to flying will have a good chance to do so. I feed them overnight, _keep them warm_ and collect them in the morning for each nuc-direct releasing a virgin queen into each. You can confine them if you wish to form a good bond with the new queen, but since they are all young bees they generally won't leave the new nuc because they've never been outside a hive. 
You can also confine your virgin queen and hang her in the center in the shipping cage, using a toothpick to straddle the frames. That will also keep the bees in house without confining them. Just be careful if you release her in a day or two, she'll be ready to fly and can get away from you. Poking a hole in the candy and letttign the nurse bees chew her out is a safer way.










I just scoop them up. That is just a frame with bare foundation the bees are clinging to. That's an old photo, the first time I did it, so the bees are kind of all over the place, but you get the idea.

Since they are not 'flyers', there is no real rush to close them up as you assemble the nuc an install your virgin.









Using mating nucs this small, calls for mild summertime temps. I actually made these these a couple years ago and never made much use of them because I wanted larger mating nucs I could overwinter if I wanted.
These mini nucs were more difficult to feed than my larger nucs and were made out of some scraps so the box was just odd sized enough to make it difficult to fit three frames. (Too narrow and shallow for the side bars) top bars were standard 9 1/4"
Just this week I finally took the time to make the frames & inner covers that I can feed through. 

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1150757_zps44bd3d5e.jpg

I had some FRP scraps- (Fiber-reinforced plastic) They are thin & stiff and will not delaminate like plywood will with moisture exposure.

I cut them to fit as an inner cover and drilled a 2 3/4" hole for feeding with an inverted mason jar.
I ran a generous bead of clear silicone around the hole and placed a section of #8 screen onto the silicone. A good way to use up those small scraps of hardware cloth you've been hanging onto.

After the silicone started to thicken somewhat, I smeared it around on the screen to flatten it so it would not hold the mason jar lid away from laying flat on the screen.(The bees can barely access a feeder through a screen.) 

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1150764_zpsf80dc4ef.jpg

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1150765_zps29891271.jpg

The edges of the screen were determined to lift, so I placed two skewers on the screen and weighted them down so it would set up nice and flat.

Not only can I use this for feeding, It is a great way to give them temporary ventilation when confined. Just a small shim under the lid will allow enough air flow. When they have accepted their new home and you turn them loose, just remove the shim and close it up for a warm inner environment. 

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1160774_zpsdbb070ec.jpg

Here are those frames. Using top bars I had already made for my complete frames, I drilled a hole for each skewer, slopped a bit of glue in the hole and tapped it in for use as a side bar so they won't attach comb to the side of the box.. Snaped my scrap pieces of foundation in half and also glued and tapped them into place. Letting them dry upside down to hold them in place until set. I think the skewers will work great. The size of the foundation is only like this to make use of scraps. 

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1100701_zpsf3268937.jpg
http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1100703_zpsc10e67e8.jpg


When you use a hole saw to drill out your inner covers, you also get a bonus. A 2 3/4" disk you can make into an entrance closure. 

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1150767_zps2ec8774b.jpg

See how the lid on the left is slightly concaved? WHen flipped, it is accessable for feeding through the screen. 
I punch my holes with a leather awl. But punch them first, then flip the lid or you'll dent the lid and defeat the purpose.










Scraps baby! Good stuff out of junk. Of course you have to store all those scraps until you find a use for them. Keeping your scrap piles tidy is the hardest part


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

> The beekeeper I learned this method from always puts the virgin to sleep>

>Close up the hive, but do NOT confine them. Do this in late morning on a warmish day so the bees that are prone to flying will have a good chance to do so. I feed them overnight, keep them warm and collect them in the morning for each nuc-direct releasing a virgin queen into each.>

Thank you camero and Lauri. :thumbsup:


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Eduardo,

The beekeeper I learned about AN from is a very accomplished beekeeper in Chile. He has a web site that it very informative. He also is easy to get information from about beekeeping. 
http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/2014/08/la-enfermedad-del-hambre-de-mario-flores.html


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

This is an interesting study on introducing virgin queens:

http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2006/05/m6044.pdf


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

That is just about the same results I've experienced, although I've not tried to introduce a virgin into a queenright hive. I have no reason to try that.

One of my favorite methods of direct releasing a virgin into a large established hive is to:
Remove the existing queen and let the hive make all the emergency cells it wants. About 5-7 days later, I take off he lid and direct release a virgin queen right through the hole in the inner cover. She will go through the entire hive and destroy any started cells. Works like a charm. (For me anyway) I use a marked virgin and she comes out the winner every time. I use to also install a capped queen cell, in case the virgin was not accepted, but it was quickly clear that was just the waste of a good cell.

Next best thing is to take out an established queen and place a candled capped queen cell right at the beginning of the main flow. It's not long before all the brood is capped and while the virgin is out getting mated, the bees have nothing to do but draw comb & bring in honey.
Just be sure the new queen has a place to lay however. Give them lots of room, or all available comb may be full with honey. If that happens, I just insert some good quality drawn brood comb in the center of the bottom deep.

Just a couple ways I play with to get the best results with the least amount of time & labor. 
They both work great, but the first method gives a colony a little longer brood break.

That study mentionedshipping virgin queens almost immediatly upon hatching (1 day old). They are very temperature sensitive & delicate at that age and I don't agree with that part. I've found the age of the virgin isn't near as importaint as the attitude of the receiving colony.

A 2-3+ day old virgin is a lot stronger and has more confidence than a one day old virgin. She'll strut rather than cower when bees come to greet her.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Lauri said:


> That study mentionedshipping virgin queens almost immediatly upon hatching (1 day old).


"Virgin1–Q: a caged virgin, 0–24 h; old with 6–7 worker bee attendants, released from her cage 3 d after introduction;"
Lauri the queen was just released from jail after three days after the introduction of the cage in the hive. Either way, comes knocking right with what you said, because at the time of release she already has 3 to 4 days old, as you defend based on your experience.

Thank you BeeAttitudes.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

This is at the end of the report

'When virgin queens are used, our results indicate that
the younger they are the better, but that virgins
3–4 days old are only slightly less successful
than virgins 0–1 days old. This suggests that
virgins can be sent through the mail provided

that they are sent on the day of emergence, that
the mail is swift (one or two days), and that
they are immediately placed into queen mating
hives on arrival."

I think if you tried to ship one day old virgins, you'd end up with several mortalities. You'd have to pack that shipping box with lots of bees to keep the young virgins warm.

I've had older virgins alone in roller cage (No attendants) I didn't have room to place and forgot them in my pocket of my bee jacket. Found them the next day after sitting outside overnight around 65 degrees. Still active and hardy. If I did that with a day old virgin she'd be dead within hours-if not sooner.

I do usually place my virgin queens the day of hatching. But unless the day is HOT, I always have a small disposable hand warmer in my pocket with them. I also have an insulated lunch box I'll load up with cages filled with young virgin queens. A single hand warmer in with them and I can take my time collecting mated queens and replaceing them with ether cells or virgins.
If I collect a mated queen and only have virgins to replace her, I'll just let the roller cage sit on top the frames for a couple hours before releasing her. Overnight if the weather is warm enough and the bees will cover her. That way they don't need a queenless period and they don't start any cells of their own.

A couple newly made mating nucs with virgins in roller caged set on top.Cover with a well insulated lid.

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P6060572_zpsc99df707.jpg

Here you see what I commonly carrry in my pouch during the summer:
-Shipping cage that has attendants always contains a mated queen.

-Shipping cage without attendants always contains a virgin queen. I use this is I want to leave them caged overnight in a nuc that ether doesn't have room on top the frames for a roller cage, or the nuc is too small to keep that virgin warm. I wil then slip the shipping cage between the frames as standard.

-Roller cage with a capped candled queen cell & roller cage with a virgin queen.

I like roller cages for direct releasing over JZBZ shpping cages. The opening is far larger and you can more easily control the virgin's release & direct her down between the frames-so she doesn't make her break.

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P6230024_zps18aed7c5.jpg

Hand warmers I use on occasion to keep cells and virgins from getting chilled. 
http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P6170789_zps7a7b2c25.jpg


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Lauri said:


> That is just about the same results I've experienced, although I've not tried to introduce a virgin into a queenright hive. I have no reason to try that.
> 
> That study mentionedshipping virgin queens almost immediatly upon hatching (1 day old). They are very temperature sensitive & delicate at that age and I don't agree with that part. I've found the age of the virgin isn't
> near as importaint as the attitude of the receiving colony.
> ...


I've kept my mouth shut on this topic till now...

Virgin queens produce pheromones used in survival that mated queens do not produce. I did some research on this years ago--didn't publish, but have all the data. As virgins age, their pheromonal 

blend and behavior becomes less and less attractive towards accepting bees. I do not agree with you Lauri: older virgins are not accepted as readily as day-old ones. Chances of acceptance 

decreases significantly as the virgin ages.


HOWEVER: acceptance is heavily dependent on the type of bees accepting! If you introduce a day-old virgin to young bees or a three-day-old virgin to young bees, the chances of acceptance is much 

greater than if you are introducing to mixed age bees in a queenless state. What else is in the introduction colony? If there's any open/wet brood, the chances the virgin will be accepted are much less. 

Sealed brood or eggs: fine for introducing a virgin, but no open/wet brood.



How does this apply to increasing your chances of acceptance with virgins? Introduce virgins to very small hives with very young bees. If you can introduce the virgin under a push-in cage with several

newly-emerged workers and open cells with nectar, the virgin will be well-fed and you can release her in a day or two. She'll most likely live to mate and make a great queen.



A great quote from Oliver Field's book, _Honey By The Ton_ :

_"Give the bees what they are expecting."_


Where would one find a newly hatched virgin? In a hive that had swarmed. What's left in that hive? Young and emerging bees.


Good Luck!

Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Lauri said:


> This is at the end of the report
> 
> 'When virgin queens are used, our results indicate that
> the younger they are the better, but that virgins
> ...


We ship day-old virgins in JZBZ cages with 7 attendants. The attendants care for the virgins. We've had pretty much 100% survival shipping this way for over five years. Try using attendants when you ship.

Adam

http://vpqueenbees.com


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Adam is correct.
While using a push in cage is good, I find it too small a space. And buying or making
that many push in cage is not that economical for a 1 time use. On ebay there is the
plastic virgin releasing tube. Basically I saw on BS post here that the virgin will bite thru the wax
simulating a natural hatch process. So you first catch the virgin to put into the plastic tube. Don't
forget the tab of honey on the outside wax too. I don't know the success rate but with all young bees I think this is possible. 
This is the most economical and time conserving process.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

adamf said:


> We ship day-old virgins in JZBZ cages with 7 attendants. The attendants care for the virgins. We've had pretty much 100% survival shipping this way for over five years. Try using attendants when you ship.
> 
> Adam
> 
> http://vpqueenbees.com


Yes, I would use attendants when I shipped, I think you confuse my own personal useage without attendants with those I might ship. 
I'm just trying to relay the fact the day old virgins are much more temp sensitive to those with a little more age on them. In addition to the caged attendents, those very young virgins may need more _additional_ bees in the shipping container to regulate temps. Especially when comparing to a hardier mated queens shipping conditions.

There are tons of scenarios and that's when it starts getting confusing for folks to follow.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

adamf said:


> Good Luck!


Thank you Adam. 
I'm trying to create in Portugal a group of beekeepers that may buy resistant queens with me and then we can mount a queen exchange program, similar to one that are you doing in your country. Adam the best of luck for your program.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> I'm trying to create in Portugal a group of beekeepers that may buy resistant queens with me and then we can mount a queen exchange program, similar to one that are you doing in your country.


outstanding eduardo. portugal is fortunate for your efforts. i too wish you success.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Thank you squarepeg. If my companions and I achieve our goals, much is due to the help that I'm having here in beesource from you and others who are teaching me and cheering for me in a way that is exceeding my wildest expectations.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

beepro said:


> While using a push in cage is good, I find it too small a space. And buying or making
> that many push in cage is not that economical for a 1 time use.


Make a larger cage. I re-use my home made cages for years.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Lauri...is there no need to leave a hive Queenless for a while before releasing a virgin queen? Is it necessary to leave a virgin Queen in a cage for a bit if you have recently taken away the Queen?
Do virgin Queens not require attendants? When you have them caged in an incubator for a couple days are they on their own and if so how do you water and feed them?
Also for mated Queens with attendants will any age of female bees work as an attendant?
Oh..and is a candled Queen cell one that is soon to emerge?
Sorry for so many questions.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Perhaps that is why Lauri has great results when she pulls a queen and leaves the hive queenless for a week before introducing the virgin.




adamf said:


> I've kept my mouth shut on this topic till now...
> 
> Virgin queens produce pheromones used in survival that mated queens do not produce. I did some research on this years ago--didn't publish, but have all the data. As virgins age, their pheromonal
> 
> ...


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks, Michael.
Next time I will use the velco strips on the sides of the frame for faster removal of the #8 wire
screen cloth. The velcos are recyclable for another application. This way the entire
frame can be covered without making or buying more push in cages. Now queen introduction should
bee a snap. Get it?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

beepro said:


> Now queen introduction should
> bee a snap.


Just don't let that virgin queen get away from you  
Why aren't you just making a simple 3x3" screen cage? Cut the screen, clip the corners, fold it into shape.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

WBVC said:


> Lauri...is there no need to leave a hive Queenless for a while before releasing a virgin queen? Is it necessary to leave a virgin Queen in a cage for a bit if you have recently taken away the Queen?
> Do virgin Queens not require attendants? When you have them caged in an incubator for a couple days are they on their own and if so how do you water and feed them?
> Also for mated Queens with attendants will any age of female bees work as an attendant?
> Oh..and is a candled Queen cell one that is soon to emerge?
> Sorry for so many questions.


They are good questions Janne. Got to make my husband breakfast first. I'll answer your questions a bit later


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> In principle I will buy virgin queens from a resistant varroa strain in a notable amount in France. I need to go comfortable for this business. I lack filing some edges of this plan and I ask for your help and advice.
> 
> What should I watch and how to introduce virgin queens of a different strain, in order to maximize the acceptance rate? I thank your valuable help .


Given your cicumstances as you have presented them this may well be your best solution.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?270786-48-Hour-Queen-Cells&highlight=hour+queen+cells
I found this all most enlightening. If your source is amenable to shipping 48 hour cells you could put them in cell builders for a few days to finish and confirm that they are viable and healthy and place them in the nucs shortly before they hatch. My guess (and it's only a guess) is that a cell which goes through the natural hatching process within a hive will likely be accepted as one of their own and have a high acceptance rate regardless of genetics. This shouldn't be difficult. 
Lots of interesting reading here (thanks for the cameo Adam)  but I guess I just have a fundamental problem with the necessity of handling virgins as a matter of routine.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Thank you Jim for the link.
Dr. Kefuss sell 48 h cells, but just "au rucher"/apiary.
In principle it is not an option because of the distance of the trip (about 3000 km) . Or am I mistaken? How to do it?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Oh, Lauri. I know about those fast flying virgins, alright.
Snip snip!

Eduardo, why don't you buy the ripe capped cells to ship in a battery
box or a warm packet. If you can keep them warm inside an igloo then this is possible. 
Order more than 200 cells to ensure some will survive the trip and hatch. Making mating nuc is much simpler, eh.
There are keepers here that ship cells before. Your friend has to contact his shipping company to ship them within 1 day. 
Over here we have overnight shipping. So the distance is not an issue on a fast cargo plane going your way. And the price is not too expensive either. Well, at
least over here. It can be arrange with the help of the shipping company.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

beepro said:


> Oh, Lauri. I know about those fast flying virgins, alright.
> Snip snip!


So *beepro*, those "snip, snip" virgins of yours...would they still fly out on their own and get mated? 
Or you just take them directly to the II/AI station? 

Could you elaborate a bit? Thanks.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Thank you Jim for the link.
> Dr. Kefuss sell 48 h cells, but just "au rucher"/apiary.
> In principle it is not an option because of the distance of the trip (about 3000 km) . Or am I mistaken? How to do it?


Maybe someone who has done this could "chime in". I know from my experience in handling cells that can take some pretty rough handling at that stage but would need to be shipped with some bees to maintain the temps. The shipping of "ripe" queen cells is tricky and requires a dependable overnight delivery system as there is only about a 24 hour window to get them in.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Dr. Kefuss only sell capped cell (with 10 days) at the apiary. The prices are almost the same for virgins queens. 

The battery box dedicated cost more than 100 virgin queens. A friend of mine tells me that in a gender situation, he brought capped cells from Bordeaux, another french city a little closer than Toulouse, the french city where I will get these queens, and had a hit of around 10 %. 

Beepro this option is not ruled out at all, but I lean more towards the option virgin queens .
This option has an advantage that delight me: will require me that I work with different logistics and procedures that I have not used so far, and I want to go through this experience, learn from it and master the procedures.

However 'll train all procedures in advance with my virgin queens. Right now I have a lot of information but I lack the training of the " hand " doing the procedures.

>there is only about a 24 hour window to get them in> Yes Jim, another issue.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

apis maximus said:


> Could you elaborate a bit? Thanks.


Snip, snip! was referring to another one of Lauri's post of the best fat queen flying away while jumping up and down 
mimicking to catch a butterfly. That will never work. She was gone now. Live and learn I guess.
Though having an II set up would be nice to clip them before the release. Sorry to confused you there.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Is it necessary _to leave a virgin Queen in a cage _for a bit if you have recently taken away the Queen? 

-YES, but the length of time depends on the receiving colony+ a few other factors may come into play...like the OP's question. If the new virgin is of a different lineage or is older as Adam suggests, you may need more of an introduction period. Sometiems I'll leave them overnight, but it rarely takes any longer than that.
With most of my queens rear here, I can usually get away with just a couple hours of protection before releasing her into the colony, no matter what their age. 

When I make up nucs with _Mated _queens, I still only give them a couple hours at most before placeing the queen-Inside a protective cage- into the nuc. I _don't_ want them making queen cells on their own. A Mated queen however, will need a couple days of intro period. No need to rush release untl she has been accepted without question.

Do virgin Queens not require attendants? 

I rarely give them attendants unless they are to be shipped or I have to keep them in the incubator for more than 2 days. I do prefer to give them attendants in the incubator to banking them so none are overly favored and none are then somewhat neglected. With feed available equally to all, they are all well fed during their holding period.










When you have them caged in an incubator for a couple days are they on their own and if so how do you water and feed them? 

I put honey in the groves in the bottom of the roller cage. Being _very careful_ to wipe off any extra so the queen doesn't get slimed.

Also for mated Queens with attendants will any age of female bees work as an attendant? 

The younger the better. When you open a hive, those bees with their heads in a cell drinking are the young ones. Let them drink for a minute then collect them for attendants. The bees that are strutting around giving you the evil eye are older foragers. Pass them up for attendants. At least that's what I do.

Oh..and is a candled Queen cell one that is soon to emerge?
Yes. It depends on the cell how much I can see. If the queens backside is sticking up and exposed though plastic cup, I can candle them earler. If there is a heavy walled cell and the cup is still filled with royal jellly, it's harder to see them move until the day of emergence. 

Pretty easy to see the queen here:

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P8010388_zps55951259.jpg

This cell would be more difficult to candle until closer to the day of emergence.
http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P6050569_zps1b1396f6.jpg

I have a good video showing the movement you are looking for, but can't get my videos to load since I got this new computer  

Was one better fed than the other? Maybe, maybe not. It's easy to assume that was the case.

Available jelly is not the same as the _actual amount of consumed_ jelly during the gestation of that queen. By the size of the resulting queens, which were both identical, they both probably consumed about the same. Cell size is usually not a factor in queen size. Think of it like a bag of pottto chips. Is a big bag that is half full contain any more that a small bag that is full to the top? No, but everyone wants the 'Big Bag' 

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P8130242_zps76084561.jpg


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