# dado fingers question



## D Semple

Your not going to get a full finger on the top and the bottom because 3/4" does not divide into 9 5/8" evenly. Don't worry that the bottom finger is a little smaller.

If you are going to cut your frame rest with your dado blades, start with a full finger on top of the long (19 7/8")side pieces.

If you are going to use a router to inset your frame rest cuts, start with a full finger at the top of the narrower rear and front pieces.

Don


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## whiskeytripping

Thanks for the info Don. I do not have a router, I figured I would cut the frame rest after the dado fingers were cut. And I guess I will just have to live with the smaller finger down below. When you have the smaller finger down at the bottom, how do you get that on the mirror image piece that fits it? Butt it up next to it and with the new piece of wood Before removing theold piece? and when you talk about a smaller finger,how much smaller?i noticed Mr Cleo said to try not to pry on your corners if possible anyways. I'm sure i will try not too. Thanks again Don for your help. When I finally learn all this, ill gladly pass what I've learned down to the next newby


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## beegeorge

Why even use the "fingers"??? every horizontal surface you create,, is one more place for water to reside and begin to rot,,

Take a look at how Rossman apiaries cuts their boards,, MUCH simpler,, no horizontal rotting places,, 

glue and screw,, its just as strong as finger joints,,


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## Charlie B

Butt joints with Titebond III, screws and good paint is all you need.


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## whiskeytripping

Well, looks like I got this one figured out. Now I just need to find a good place to start buying my pine. My 1 x 12's I bought the other day were a little warped, and this was laying it all flat and covering in the barn. I never really like the orange "box stores" method of standing wood on its end.


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## beegeorge

agree with Charlie B,, even is you use titebond II


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## whiskeytripping

Will the buttjoints really hold up? If they do, that would be just TOO easy. I did use the titebond 3 as well on my box joints.


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## stoffel64

Hi,

I don't use finger or box joins for my self-made boxes. I just use a rabbet joints because they are easier to make
and hold up pretty good too. Of course a box or finger joint is better but I save a lot of time using the rabbet joint.
Use a good glue (Tidebond III)and good screws (pre-drill). 

Cheers
Stefan


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## Daniel Y

I have never used the Incra Jig. So I don not know exactly how the adjustment stuff works. I simply make a finger joint jig out of a couple of scraps of wood when I need them. 








In the photo. notice he has the edge of the piece set against the index pin of the jig. when the second notch is cut he will move the piece so that the first notch fits on the index pen. etc. The last notch will be the partial one.

If you wanted the first notch to be at the edge of the board you would put a spacer the width of a finger next to the index pin and then put the edge of the piece against that.


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## Joseph Clemens

It sounds like the O/P is confusing dado cuts with finger joints, dado cuts aren't essential to creating finger joints, the fingers can be cut in many other ways besides dado's.

I too prefer rabbet/rebate joints or even locking miter joints for super construction, especially when I'm making my own.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

stoffel64 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't use finger or box joins for my self-made boxes. I just use a rabbet joints because they are easier to make
> and hold up pretty good too. Of course a box or finger joint is better but I save a lot of time using the rabbet joint.
> Use a good glue (Tidebond III)and good screws (pre-drill).
> 
> Cheers
> Stefan


I second rabbet joints. Although I believe they are superior to dado joints. There is less end grain to absorb moisture with rabbets. End grain is what absorbs the most moisture. Plus it is super easy and fast to do with a dado blade.


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## whiskeytripping

When you make these rabbet joints, what kind and how many clamps do you have to use to square them up and let them set? Or did you build a box to assemble them in. I do know that the box end joint was easy to square up. Thanks guys for all the feed back


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## Joseph Clemens

As an assembly jig, I made a heavy box of two-by lumber whose outside dimensions are just slightly smaller, about 1/8" than the inside dimensions of my finished supers. I apply glue (Titebond III), clamp the sides and ends to the jig, then nail/screw/staple them together. After they are assembled I remove the clamps, then knock the jig out of the finished super. The jig holds the supers square as they are being assembled.


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## stoffel64

Here is a link to the box making jig that I use. It really works great.

Thanks Michael Bush Bee Box assembling jig

I extended the jig a little so that I also able to assemble 5 frame nuc boxes. I just add guides for the
boards that hold the sides at the correct measurement.

Cheers
Stefan


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

whiskeytripping said:


> When you make these rabbet joints, what kind and how many clamps do you have to use to square them up and let them set? Or did you build a box to assemble them in. I do know that the box end joint was easy to square up. Thanks guys for all the feed back


I glue and screw them together. No need for any clamps or box assembly jig. The rabbit joint keeps everything square for you.


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## Tom B

I agree that box joints just expose the maximum amount of end grain and create horizontal joining surfaces where none are needed. All of this invites water penetration and premature rot. Butt or rabbet joints are much better in my opinion (and experience), modern glue (titebond III) and power driven screws are better, faster, and more secure than box joints and nails. If you are not making 100's of boxes and don't want to take the time to make a jig, you can use a 2" square piece of wood clamped to the "short" piece to keep things square while you screw the "sides" on. No need for special blades or table saw jigs, everything can be done well with a rip fence and a cross-cut guide. I make all mediums, a 1x8 board 6' long makes one box. 6' boards are usually cheaper and of better quality than the longer boards, I prefer lumber yards that are self-service, I can sort through the pile of utility grade boards to find the ones that will work for beehive boxes.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

D Semple...whiskeytripping.... I cut my rabbets with the same dado, but, I like to cut the top of the long side of a box 3/8 inch less than a full finger, so it can butt against the 3/8 rabbet in the front and rear. I think this makes a stronger joint since you can nail and glue, from the front into a full finger. Just another way to do it.

Slightly smaller finger on the bottom is not a problem. Attached photo shows there is only a slight difference in the top and bottom finger.









cchoganjr


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## minz

Take the thickness of the dato stack and cut out a piece of wood. Put it against the fence and cut the dato. Move the fence two widths, screw the plywood to the fence and cut it again. Glue and nail the strip to the first dato cut. 
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/boxjointback.jpg
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/boxjigfront.jpg

Place a piece of scrap wood against the peg and do a dato. (or just use the second scrap to increment one part of the box (the fronts and backs with the shelf) that way the fronts and backs will be the female end and the rest will not show through.
I do the entire width of the board and place in a bottom. When I cut it off I get a free inter cover or candy board. 
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/2011_01190022.jpg
Craigs list or a lumber mill are the best places to get cheap wood.


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## whiskeytripping

Thanks for all y'all's help and suggestions. I finally pieced together a 5 frame nuc box, it's glued and nailed. I did have a couple little bitty gaps in a couple of places I will fill in with a 20year calk, then paint them really good. I won't worry about the insides, cause the bees will fix that problem for me.


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## Mr.Beeman

I rabbet cut my side boards 3/4" deep and leave a 3/8" shoulder. Glue and nail with titebond. Then I place it on the floor and square up with a carpenters square. You'd be surprised how far off they can be. After a day or so stack them as high as you wish.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Mr Beeman.... I'm a little slow... I don't understand your part of the post above that says, " rabbet cut side boards 3/4 deep, and leave a 3/8 shoulder." Are you talking about the front and rear when you say "leave 3/8 shoulder."

Could you elaborate.

Thanks.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

minz... Nice explaination of setting up the box joint jig, and photos are good. Lots of people have asked about how to set up the jig. I have a sled that runs in the miter grooves, but then I do a lot more boxes than someone just building a few. I just haven't had the time to make the photos and write up the info. 

I noticed your photo, linked here.......... http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/...1_01190022.jpg........ that you are using a router/shaper/dado for handles....... If you would like to make the handles more like commercial boxes,... beesource has the plans in their "Do It Yourself" library to make a very simple jig to cut those commercial looking handles with a Skil Saw. Beesource also has a link to my video on uTube demonstrating how the handles are cut, with a Skil Saw, safe, fast, easy, or if you would like, you can e-mail me at [email protected] and i will send you the instructions. No charge, and your boxes will look like commercial ones. There is a photo that shows the hand hold you can cut with the Skil Saw on post # 26 below.

cchoganjr


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## Mr.Beeman

Cleo,

A pic is worth a thousand words. I oriented the pic to my explanation. 
The side dado is cut 3/4" deep to accept the front panel so everything will be flush and I left the 3/8" shoulder to nail through. Soooo simple.


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## deknow

The correct answer is.....don't dado your fingers!

deknow


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

MrBeeman.... You are right. Picture worth a thousand words.









I cut the top fingers on the sides 3/8 inch less than the others by lowering the blade on my saw by three turns. Then turn back up three turns and cut the others. That way the front rabbet fits flush against the top finger and you can nail/glue from the front. I think it makes the joint stronger. 

Just another way to do it. There is no right and wrong.

cchoganjr


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## whiskeytripping

Well I've been busy putting these hives together. It takes a bit to get set up, but cutting these box joint ends is fairly easy now. One things for sure, EVERYONE comments how nice they look when your finished. My only problem I had was I saw my son with his hat on backwards:no:, I stopped the saw to yell at him to put it on right or just don't wear it. Then when I started on my end piece I forgot to put my spacer on. SO I said no problem, I will just cut the opposite on 1 of my longer pieces to match it, we'll when I ripped my rabbet on my end piece, it left a 3/8" gap on my hive corner. But I will just cut a little piece to fit it and just not worry about it. That's all you can do. Either ways, his hat facing forward. :thumbsup:


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## honeyman46408

[/QUOTE]we'll when I ripped my rabbet on my end piece, it left a 3/8" gap on my hive corner. But I will just cut a little piece to fit it and just not worry about it. That's all you can[/QUOTE]

Next boxes you make cut your rabbets all on the end piece (make adjustments in measurements for the 4 sides) then you wont have the space in the corner


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

deknow said:


> The correct answer is.....don't dado your fingers!
> 
> deknow


denow..Just curious.... If you don't dado your fingers, how do you make them.

cchoganjr


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## whiskeytripping

Yes sir I will Mr Honeyman, in fact I just screwed up that time. I think I will start ripping my rabbet first, THEN cutting my dados. I built them today like Mr Hogan said, and it works out perfect, using the full fingers on my side pieces, that way I don't even have to chisel anything. I'm starting to see why everyone out there has 2 table saws, instead of a second table saw, I'm thinking about getting a router and router table next year. 

Let me ask any of you point me to a good thread that you can build frames with a table saw only? It's either buy them, or make them. If it can be done on a table saw, I'm all ears. Thanks (seems like buying them can be rather pricey)


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

whiskeytripping said:


> .
> 
> Let me ask any of you point me to a good thread that you can build frames with a table saw only? It's either buy them, or make them. If it can be done on a table saw, I'm all ears. Thanks (seems like buying them can be rather pricey)


whiskeytripping... It can all be done on a table saw, but, I believe you will find making them, unless you plan on making a lot, you will find you had rather buy them.

Two table saws??????? I have 6. Don't have to move fences. 

cchoganjr


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## whiskeytripping

Well I hope I haven't screwed up royally, I went outside today and checked my inside measurements on my boxes and found out they were a little smaller than recommended. I guess I had my dado set just a little too deep, I know for sure the wood was the right length. My inside length on my langstroth 10 frame is 18-1/4" L x 14-11/16" W. and my langstroth Nuc hives measure 18-1/4" L x 7-3/8" W. my question is, will this work? I don't have a frame to drop in there cause I haven't bought any yet. And if it will not work, how can I salvage this? Get out the sander? I have already assembled 2 big boxes and 4 Nuc boxes, I already have 4 more big boxes cut out I haven't assembled yet. Any help would be much appreciated


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## Rader Sidetrack

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> denow..Just curious.... If you don't _dado your fingers_, how do you make them.


Cleo, I suspect Dean was attempting to inject a little humor into the thread, as in _don't dado the fingers attached to your hand_.


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## mgolden

Just checked a new assembled frame and end bar to end bar is 17 13/16. Top bar of frame is 19 1/16 and need another 1/16 in length from end of frame rest to other end, so frames can be manoeuvered( rests get gummed up with propolis).

Width is not as imporatant as there is more surplus room.

Supposed to be 18 3/8. 18 3/8 minus 17 13/16 just leaves a bee space of 4.5/16 on either end and that is tight. And you are tighter than that.

I'd likely chuck the ends and cut the sides to be ends. But I may be called picky!

I have made supers and it is tricky and now purchase unassembeled pre cut supers.


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## whiskeytripping

Thanks mgolden for responding, I kinda figured width wouldn't be a problem, due to me probably only running 9 frames anyways, now length on the other hand, that will be a different story. I'm not sure I could talk my wife into spending anymore money here on my hobby. So I will have to salvage what I have if at all possible. I figured worst case scenario, I would have to sand it some, and I can't stand things not being perfect myself. BUT I'm just gonna have to live with it. So the bee space on the length is critical? And I'm sure someone else has had this happen. I am definately green on my woodworking skills, and I should have thought about the dado depth killing my inside dimentions, I was more thinking about making them a little longer then sanding them perfect. Looks like I might get quite a bit of practice with a sander before its all said and done.


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## whiskeytripping

I just thought about it, but on my last 4 unassembled boxes, I could dado off 1/16" off the end plates in between the fingers. If this size is so critical. Or could I take a 1/16" off the unassembled frames when I buy them? This just makes me sick to even think about it


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## Rader Sidetrack

While it is important to consider _bee space_, your situation is not the end of the world. You may get a little more burr comb in those boxes than if you had _perfect _bee space, but few hives are perfect anyway after weather exposure.

My suggestion is to *not *magnify a small error in the boxes by modifying standard frames. If necessary, modify the boxes to be workable, and keep everything else standard.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Radar Sidetrack,..... Dean.......O.K. I get it now. 

As I have said before, in my older years, I am a little slow. I took it that he was going to make them the old fashioned way, can't remember the name of the tool they used, that allows you to make dado joints manually,. or with a router and template, or perhaps he had found a new way to make them. It was not sarcasm on my part. I am ALWAYS interested in new ways to do things.

I do appreciate humor, just failed to see it in this case. My bad.

Thanks.

cchoganjr


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## mgolden

Just tell your wife you could be spending more money on golfing! lol

Seriously, I don't know as though bee space is critical on the ends walls. I know some of my dimensions are tight because I tried to add metal rests and they made the box too tight to insert a frame. Other supers/my home made ones had sufficient room with metal rests added.


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## whiskeytripping

Radar sidetrack, thanks for your suggestion, I thought about the frames being different sizes. That wouldn't be good. Now I will rip a 1/16" off my unassembled hives. And in the burr comb, if my box is tighter than normal, they will build burr comb in it? I would figure slightly larger would Invite that. Either ways, something like this will definitely ruin your day. But you always learn in a situation like this. I guess I will sand some on my assembled hives.


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## mgolden

Braved a trip to the shed and measured two of my purchased supers and they are slightly less than 18 1/4. So I'm living with it and didn't know it.

Super dimension for frame rest end to frame rest end is 19 1/8.

So I am pounding my metal frame rest flat so they can be used.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

whiskeytripping....On subsequent boxes that you make, cut you a small piece of wood the thickness of the proper dado cut. Before you start making your cuts, (setting the saw depth), cut a valley on a scrap piece of wood, then use the block you save and make sure the block fits flush in the valley, or just ever so slightly more, (referred to as being "proud",), then your fingers and valleys will be correct. Save the piece of wood for future box making.

cchoganjr


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## whiskeytripping

Mgolden, thank you so much for the info. I am just gonna live with it then and not change anything. But I will chalk this up as a important learning episode in the wonderful world of beehive building. What kind of temps are you facing up there? It's a chilly 53 degrees in my part of Texas. Thanks again for the info. I feel WAY better now. I'm just not gonna worry about it


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## mgolden

It's -10F this AM and 1.5 ft of snow. We've had a steady two months of miserable winter, even for us. Interesting to hear beekeepers talking about their bees going on orientation and cleansing flights. Haven't seen either of these for a good two months!!!!!!!! Any undertaker or disorientated bee that try to fly, make, sadly, a 5ft one way flight.

Have insulated and wrapped my hives and the inside hive temp at the top center is 30F this AM.


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## Daniel Y

My bet is frames will fit as is. slightly tighter than normal but they will still work. You actually are long on each end by 1/32 of an inch. you should have a 16th of an inch of extra space at each end of a top bar. show me that beekeeper that hangs every frame in the box within 1/32 of exact center. They are dropped in and can be off as much as an 8th of an inch one way or the other.


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## whiskeytripping

Thanks Daniel for the info. At this point in the game it's just gonna have to work. It looks like I might have dodged a bullet this time. And I learned a very valuable lesson. Thanks to all that have commented. Have a Merry Christmas everyone


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## Daniel Y

Whisky here is a tip. draw a line on your board that is the inside of the box. measure from that line the distance you need the inside of your box to be and draw another line. as long as all your dados and fingers do not cross those two lines you are good. fingers to short you can live with. to long you can fix. but you can't make the inside of the box bigger if you cut the dados to close together. And don't feel bad it is easy to do what you did.


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## psfred

You will be fine so long as the frames fit long ways. If they are tight, the bees will stick them down more and it will be more difficult to remove them, but this shouldn't be a huge problem.

Width is not an issue, as you will be keeping all the frames pushed tightly together in the center of the box. The extra room or lack of it on the outside is not a problem, either the bees will make the outermost face thicker, or in many cases, won't use it anyway.

In the future make sure your dados are exactly the same depth as the thickness of the wood you are using if you want flush ends. Me, I'm not worried about the look on the outside so much as I'm concerned that if I cut them a bit deep the frames are tight. Made a couple that way, and made a couple nuc boxes so narrow that I can only use narrow frames or just four frames instead of five, but that's OK -- painted them a different color that my standard boxes so I can keep track.

You will rapidly discover that the bees do not care what the boxes look like, and so long as you keep them painted, the fit of the "fingers" is immaterial to the functioning of the box, which is in fact to keep the bees dry and free of icy drafts. 

I've got a few boxes to make this winter, and a pile of frames to cut as soon as I get my cheapo band saw modified to work properly. Should keep me out of trouble until garden time rolls around again in about 9 weeks.

Peter


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## minz

I built my own boxes for the last couple of years and my own frames last year. Do you know that the plastic frames are way shorted at the end of the topbar than the wood ones? Nothing like standing in front of a hive and the frame in your hand not fitting. I took them to the belt sander since I needed to make the end rounded a bit like the commercial ones. Even for the 70 or so frames they trimmed down in a hurry. Hemlock and fir shoots right off on a belt sander, make any modification you want (doesn’t add any though).


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## whiskeytripping

Well these boxes are going together pretty well, they don't sit completely flat (one corner almost 1/8" high), they are all pretty much all this way. What actually causes this? I checked the squareness before I started cutting my pieces out. And I fixed the depth of my fingers so my inside diameter of the box is good now. This won't be too big of an issue, I will use some 80 grit sandpaper on my palm sander and should square the box up to make it flat. I'm sure if there is an ever so slight gap, the bees will fix this problem. (I'm gonna do my best to make sure there is no gap) they are starting to come out good. I guess kinda seeking some perfection here for next time. Thanks guys for the info


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## psfred

This is a common problem, probably due to less than perfectly flat lumber when cutting the fingers. The solution is to put one nail in each side, square up the box and rack it to make it flat, then nail it up the rest of the way.

Ditto if using screws -- make sure the box is square the flat with just four screws in place. 

This is better than machining it flat after, as you then have a frame rail that is not flat! The bees will fill small spaces with propolis, but then the boxes are difficult to get apart.

It's very difficult to rack the box flat after you have all the fasteners in, I've tried. I've had very good luck with squaring it up with just four nails in place, the seem to stay flat without problems.

Also, after the bees fill all the frames up with honey, the boxes tend to flatten on their own from the weight. Much easier than messing about with them.

If you do need to 'adjust' them, a hand plane works much better than a sander, a small block plane is all you really need. Watch you don't hit a nail, though!

Peter


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## whiskeytripping

Thanks psfred, I just figured with a dado finger , it had to be something with it. Like something was off or something. I will try what you said and see if I can finish up the last ones doing that method and see if it works better. Thanks for the info


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## whiskeytripping

Well i got yet another lesson in wood working. After i cut my fingers too deep and was worried about the bee space, i stopped what i was doing till i got my frames in. I assembled some, and they fit great (on the 2 i had put together that first day) even with the inside dementions being a little small. So after i found out they would work, i went back to the barn and i tried to start assembling my boxes  well they wouldn't go together no more. What a disappointment. It wasn't a total loss though. I went ahead and cut the sides into ends now, i have to buy more wood and then redo the sides again. It has been really dry, and they have been out there 2 weeks now, now its been really rainy, and i guess that wood twisted. From now on, I'm gonna put them together after cutting my fingers (dados). My barn floor is dirt and gets pretty wet inside. Im sure this is why it bowed up and wont fit now. All my other pieces have fit great


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## deknow

Sometimes you can improve the bow enough for proper assembly if you wet the concave (cupped in) side of the board.

deknow


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

deknow said:


> Sometimes you can improve the bow enough for proper assembly if you wet the concave (cupped in) side of the board.
> 
> deknow


Never tried it but I bet it would work. Wet the pieces down with a hose on a sidewalk and put concrete blocks on top of them for a day or two.


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## deknow

...I've also heard of folks putting the cupped side down, and wetting the floor with a hose. I don't think the blocks are necessary...



deknow


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

deknow said:


> ...I've also heard of folks putting the cupped side down, and wetting the floor with a hose. I don't think the blocks are necessary...
> deknow


Your probably right!


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## whiskeytripping

Thanks for the info guys, this is definately a live and learn situation with wood working. Its funny how fast a feller can learn when it hits your pocketbook. Thanks again, it was only 4 boxes thankfully.


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## psfred

Wood moves quite a bit as the moisture content changes, as you have discovered.

All the commercial suppliers suggest you assemble boxes as soon as you get them, obviously because they are kiln dried and flat when cut, but if you let thiem sit around in humid conditions, they won't be in short order, and they can even crack as the outer parts swell faster than the inner parts. This is equally true cutting them out yourself, as the wood should have been pretty dry when you got it (unless someone stored a pallet of it outside, makes a real mess!).

Your pieces should return to close to what there were when you made them if you can dry them out a bit. Never ever put wood flat on a surface that will either enhance or restrict moisture movement, as you will get one side with higher moisture content than the other that way. Best to stand them up on one side with some space between them if you cannot maintain a fairly constant humidity.

Dirt floors are really bad in areas with lots of rain, the water migrates right in. Concrete can be a problem in the spring, when the air outside is damp and warm but the floor is cold -- tons of condensation. 

Peter


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## whiskeytripping

Thanks abunch for your info psfred, i did have them on a metal table in the barn that was dry and flat, but just to be on the safe side, im not gonna cut my fingers till im ready to assemble them. I can cut my boards to length, BUT fingers i wont be cutting till im ready to put them together. Thanks againg for all the help


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## Daniel Y

Whiskey, the reason your wood cupped is it got moist on one side when laying on the ground and not the other. So one side expanded and the other did not. try laying them back on the ground cupped side down and see if they straighten back up. IF they do assemble them and quit playing around 

Actually you should be able to store hive pieces unassembled. you just have to keep them save and dry.


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## kilocharlie

I'll be the odd guy out and say stick to finger box joints, not rabbets nor butt joints! The finger-joint boxes are WAY stronger. Sugar pine is a good choice as it cups very little, another favorite is bald cypress as it lasts for years.

A sled (as opposed to a pushblock) is made up for finger joints. It crosses both grooves in the saw table at 90 degrees. I usually clamp 8 parts to it at a time when cutting the finger joints. There is a peg the size of a finger 3/4" over from the dado. Cut a notch, move the part over so that the notch rests on the finger to automatically space the next notch.

I find it better to make the new stagger design for the fingers at the top of the short end of the box, so that the 3/8" shelf cut into the top inside of the short end is a deep finger that extends all the way to the outside edge of the box. The top of the long side has a stepped notch to fit perpendicular to the shelf.

A glue can and a paintbrush proved too slow for gluing up a box - some glue always dried before the box was assembled. I made a dipping tray and use a good sheet metal pan under the assembly jig to control the excess. I wipe glue (Titebond III) with a squeegee first and a wet sponge second.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

kilocharlie said:


> I find it better to make the new stagger design for the fingers at the top of the short end of the box, so that the 3/8" shelf cut into the top inside of the short end is a deep finger that extends all the way to the outside edge of the box. The top of the long side has a stepped notch to fit perpendicular to the shelf..


kilocharlie, you had me right up to there. Ha. Guess that is a matter of preference. I like the 3/8 overlap, rather than basically floating rabbet in the front and rear. Difficult, (not impossible) to nail into this 3/8 rabbet from the side. The overlap will glue, nail/stable into a full finger from the front.,

Are you saying that Titebond III dried before you got the box assembled. 

cchoganjr


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## kilocharlie

I'm not talking about rabbet joints. If the wood cups strongly, they fall apart. You could make mating nucs that way, they are only out a month or two, and usually in good weather. Beehives made with finger box joints and treated with linseed oil can last outside 24/7 in all weather 40+ years if re-painted every other year.

The new stagger-stepped pattern can be seen in Dadant's or Mann Lake's catalog. The stagger step on the top finger makes the 3/8" shelf less likely to warp apart from the long side of the box, and you can staple right through it 90 degrees to the shelf and into the end grain of the long side. It is a far superior design.

Painting glue with a brush on 4 faces of 30 finger joints takes too long. Just dip the ends, 1/2 assemble, and wipe the excess off back into the tray, then fit it over the squaring jig and clamp and staple. (Wash the glue off the squaring jig.)

An air-powered staple gun sure gets the job done better than nails. You can set the depth of better guns so that the crown of the staple is buried and your belt sander won't rip a belt on one.


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## minz

Here is my new sled, made from trimmings from cutting a dinning table down to a coffee table.
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/DSCF4217.jpg
I cut the long sides, 4 at time (I do not final rip to width until done so I chalk the reference edge). http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/DSCF4218.jpg
After all of the long sides are cut I leave them clamped and reverse them to the first notch. http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/DSCF4219.jpg
The short sides then ride right along the blade, making the first finger so that the frame rest will not be seen from the outside. A perfect mated fit. (shown with 3 short ends for clarity) http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/DSCF4220.jpg
I remove the long ends and finish the sides.
After the first cut remove the long sides and finish cutting the short ends. 
Yeah my shop is a mess and I did use rebar tie wire to put the propane heater on top of the band saw table!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

kilocharlie... I am not talking about rabbet joints either. 

I am at a disadvantage here I suppose, I don't have a new Dadant, or Mann Lake catalog. I will try to pull up a photo from Mann Lake, or Dadant of the joint you are talking about. If it is a superior joint, I am all for it. I would like to see it. I did not think that this design was as strong as the traditional overlap of the front rabbet (frame rest) onto the end of the side boards, because the rabbet (frame rest) could warp away from the end of the side of the box, and you would be nailing/stapling into the end of a 3/8 rabbet (the frame rest).

Is this the type joint you are talking about. I made these nucs last year when we were talking about the new joint that Kelly Bee either made or was considering making.

















cchoganjr


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## minz

I found that I only need to put glue on the short sides. Each finger and across the face, is fast enough that the glue does not set up on me and all fingers have glue. I drill and counter sink the holes on every other finger (kid job) before glue up. Clamp, square and shoot two screws (2 1/2”) into each long end only (since they are screws I only need to do the long sides, they will not pull out). It was great with kid help but when he is gone I do not always get a nice square end so I am building a Harry posted except with clamps.


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## steve andrews

I have found that pocket holes from inside and tightbound glue and 5 holes is great and strong works great these joints are as strong as it gets


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## minz

Cleo, how do you do the first wide finger/ joint. I know it has to be simple but I am missing it (I am also missing why but you have explained it to me so many time it will not help) LOL


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

minz To tell you the truth, I can't remember how I did it. There was a thread last year about this new joint, someone explained it to me, and I went out in the shop and made the nuc pictured above. Turned out, that wasn't how the joint was being made. Where I had the width of 2 fingers without a valley on the side piece, what they were talking about just had one finger on the long side that the end fit inside.

I am in Georgia this week, when I get back to Ky on Sat. I will look at the nuc again, perhaps I can tell you then. 

The only reason I made it was because someone suggested this would be a better joint. I didn't think so, after I made it. As you can see the top nail is a #4, and it is nailed into the 3/8 rabbet, (frame rest). I don't think it would be as strong as the 3/8 overlap on the end.

I remembered how I did it. Just start at the bottom cutting my box joints rather than starting at the top. Make a second valley cut at the top on the end pieces.

cchoganjr


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## psfred

Brushy Mountain leaves the finger on the top of the ends and cuts the recess on the long board to fit and has you nail through the 3/8"part. Seems to work fine, but it's a hassle when you are not using a gang saw that cuts the whole board at once. Home jigs that let you cut one dado at a time will require two setups and remembering to cut that first one properly.

What I do is cut the dado in the top of the sides, cutting the rabbet off. I then run a 1 1/2" finish brad at about a 45 degree angle into the top finger, or just leave it un-nailed. I don't think there is much difference in strength and they are easier to cut. Since you shouldn't be prying on the top of the rabbet anyway, you get a nice solid 3/4" side all the way down.

Peter


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

psfred.... I'm with you, there probably isn't much difference in strength, but, I make mine the way they have been made for years with the front and rear pieces,(ones with the rabbet, frame rest), overlapping the top side finger by 3/8 inch,the width of the front and rear rabbet. 

I cut the front and rear boards first. Then I cut the top finger (on each of the 2 side boards) 3/8 less by lowering the saw blade 4 turns, then turn back up 4 turns to cut the other fingers full length. Works for me.

cchoganjr


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## kilocharlie

Minz - Nice sled! Thanks for the photos!

Peter and Cleo - Close, but the new arrangement leaves the "wide finger" on the top of the short end out to full 16 1/4" width with the frame hanger rabbet in it. The notch in the top of the long end is staggered to mate up to the rabbet and full-depth rabbet below (it is a double-wide finger). The advantage is that the fastener goes through the 3/8" x 5/8" narrow lip part (cross-section) of the rabbet at 90 degrees to the grain and into the end grain of the long side, and allows for a lot more glue area in that spot, changing it from the weakest joint in the hive body to a very strong one, and not sending a fastener into the end grain of the narrow 3/8" x 5/8" lip.

Sorry, I tried an ASCII pic, but the editor omits all the spaces, destroying the image.

Also, yes, it is another setup for a single dado with a sled. A gang or form cutter that does all the fingers at once can have the stagger step built into it. Stack them and cut 'em all at once.


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## psfred

This joint is a royal pain to cut on a dado set on a table saw if you are making a lot of boxes, since you have to make several cuts that require a different setup for each one. Commerical boxes are cut on gang saws (all the fingers are cut by separate blades on a mandrel at the same time, one pass per board, both sides), but I have to cut them one dado at a time. It's quite enough hassle to cut that many dados already, I don't want to have to do two complete setups. This is complicated by the current use of 5/8" deep rabbets rather than 7/8" rabbets, which DOES increase the strength of the remainder -- it's shorter and stiffer, hence less likely to get broken off, but unless you want to cut MORE dadoes, the top finger isn't the full depth of the rabbet any more. 

This is the standard joint from Brushy Mountain and the old Kelley boxes, but I don't see any real advantage. Looks nice, certainly seals well, but I don't think it's all that much stronger. Kelley now uses the same joint I do -- the rabbet is the dado on the end pieces, all the dados on the sides are the same. Easier to manage during production, I suspect.

The strength in a box joint is not in the nails or glue, it's in the fact that you have substantial interlock between the boards. The main place that boxes get damaged, other than joint failures due to water intrusion and rot, is when someone sticks a hive tool in between the boxes and pries up on the frame rest rabbet. Doesn't take may events like this to damage it, it's not very strong, and it doesn't matter which way it's nailed up, prying on it will dent it.

If it wasn't such a pain, I'd use the joint you describe just because it looks better and is more likely to seal, but I don't think there is enough gain in strength to bother. The bees take care of any water leaks and will more or less completely fill any crack between the boards with a pretty decent glue. 

Note that if you drive a nail at a 45 degree angle, you won't be putting it in the narrow part, it will be in the wide part. I wouldn't drive ANY nail into a 3/8" x 5/8" part, it will split if the nail is big enough to do anything besides look pretty.

Peter


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## kilocharlie

Peter - I agree, it is a PITA to cut on a single dado setup. Since it is an end finger, just leave the top part long and dado the full-depth notch, and index to the spacing peg and keep on cutting dados. Cut the top stagger notch in the long side later on the band saw or router table. Much easier and cleaner. The advantage shows up several years down the road when the weather curls the narrow lip out away from the box long after the glue has failed (old design). The new stagger joint should hold up a dozen years longer, as it has 75% more gluing area and room for 2 fasteners. It is WAAAAYYY more betterer.

Double down on the "don't kick the hive tool into the narrow lip" sentiment! That's kind of like, "Try not to stab the hive full of AHB's with the forklift". Hee Hee Hee.


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## Rader Sidetrack

kilocharlie said:


> Sorry, I tried an ASCII pic, but the editor omits all the spaces, destroying the image.


You can fix the spacing problem by making the ASCII pic in a fixed pitch font, such as "Courier New" used in the example below, and use the BBCode [CODE]xx[/CODE] to bracket the ASCII pic:



Code:


[RIGHT][FONT=courier new]ABCDEFGHIJK
BCDEFGHIJK
CDEFGHIJK
DEFGHIJK
[/FONT][FONT=courier new]DEFGHIJK
[/FONT][FONT=courier new]DEFGHIJK[/FONT][FONT=courier new]
DEF  IJK
DEF  IJK
EFGHIJK[/FONT][/RIGHT]

Also, I used the "Align Right" button to make things align up. You may need to go to the "Advanced" menu to find the "Align" buttons. More info on BBCode functions can be found by clicking on the "BBCode is on" link at the very bottom of this page.


EDIT:I saw that I had improperly terminated the CODE parameter. Once that error is fixed, it works much better, as shown above. Now no need to substitute periods for spaces. :lookout:


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## kilocharlie

Cleo - I just saw the image on your post #66. It is the opposite finger cadence - the short end has an extra-wide finger (2 fingers wide, or 1.5") with the rabbet at the top, not a notch. The long side has a staggered notch to fit the rabbet in the short end.

In your pic, the short end of the box has a notch at the top and the finger is on the long end. "Opposite finger cadence" is the best phrase I can think of. Again, it is a PITA to make on the table saw. If I was cutting the new design on a table saw with a single dado gang, I would leave the part that matches up to the rabbet long and cut the rest of the dado notches as normal, then go back and cut the top (half-) step on the router table. The strength difference will show up 10 years down the road...it will still be very strong (especially if you dip it in Linseed oil) instead of curling outward or splitting end grain away from the nail (if any) as per the old design. The new stagger-notch design weathers much better, and is considerably stronger in the first place. It is completely worth the extra step, even more so when treated with linseed oil, dried properly, and a paint job maintained regularly.

Minz - My sled is only slightly different - I made the base wide and added support triangles for the upright, a hand protector box over where the dado comes out, and a pair of coat hangar rod handles.

Also, make a squaring jig - a strong box or block just slightly smaller (1/32") than the inside dimension of your box. Cover it with brown plastic mailing tape so the glue doesn't stick, and wash it off with the wet sponge after you sponge off the hive body. Clamping with bar clamps is quick and easy, get 8 staples into the box corners so it holds square, and shove the jig out. You can clamp as strategically as necessary as you complete stapling, checking with your framing square. You staple the box to the jig less often this way. Doing this and building the boxes over-tall, then trimming them flat and square to final height makes them stack pretty evenly. You are only ever off about 1/16" out of square across an entire run of boxes and using the same jig, from run to run as well.

Steve A - Are you talking about a hidden dowel joint? I guarantee fingers + glue + 1.75" long x 1/2" crown staples are stronger after the weather has had at them a few years, but I like how you question everything.

Another good joint is a lockmiter joint made at 90 degrees, as it has no end grain exposed and LOTS of glue area. Staple or nail it all you want, even biscuit it. Faster to make, and probably the best joint out there, but you have to have a planer to control the thickness so both parts are the same thickness and really slam that board down on the shaper table (and the 90 degree part against the upright angle plate) with finger boards. Unless you are going to set up for high accuracy, it's probably very frustrating for the average guy in the home shop.


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## kilocharlie

Big thank you, Graham!

I have a buddy here now so will make an ASCII pic soon.

Ok pray for me...

\...............\
.\...............\
..\...............\
...\...............\<--Long Side (19 7/8" finished)
....\...............\
.....\...............\
......\________\_____________________________________________________________________________
.......l\....3/8" wide x 5/8" deep narrow lip on top of short end (16 1/4") of hive body due to rabbet for hanging frames
.......l..\______________________________________________________________________________________
....l\.l...l
....l.\l...l<--*NOTICE STAGGERED NOTCH* in long side!
....l......l......O<--nail
....l......l..Double-wide finger (3/4" x 1.5" with 3/8" x 5/8" rabbet on inside)
....\.....l
.....\....l
......\...l......O <--nail
....l\..\.l
....l.\..\l_________
....l..\..l................l
....l...\.l................l
....\...\l_________l..First finger from long side
......\..l
.......\.l
.........l__________
.........l.................l

I hope this helps.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

kilocharlie...Thanks.. I think I have the concept. I am in Georgia until Saturday, but when I get back to Ky. I am going to look at this, build a nuc and take pictures to see if I understand it.

If I understand this concept it is the same concept used for years, except it has a double finger on 16 1/4 board with 3/8 rabbet in it and the front frame rest rabbet overlaps the first finger of the long side of the box.( which has a reduced finger) 

I can't debate,(notice debate, not argue) the merits of the new/vrs old concept, but since I have never had a problem with the old way,(several thousands of boxes) I think I will stay with the old way, at least for the time being. This is not to say that I am set in my ways in my older years, I am ALWAYS open to new and better ways to do things, and I sincerely appreciate people discussing and advancing better ways to make equipment and keep bees.

kilocharlie..I just saw your more recent post. I will reread it and get back later. Still in Georgia so can't do anything until I get back to Ky.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

kilocharlie said:


> Cut the top stagger notch in the long side later on the band saw or router table.


kilocharlie....Why wouldn't you just build a fence pattern that fits in the miter groove,(eliminating measuring each time, just drop in miter groove and clamp to table), then crank your same dado on your table saw that cuts your box joints up to 3/8 inch, stand the end pieces perpendicular to your table and run againstpattern to cut that 3/8 inch off, flip your board and do the same on the other end. If you cut multiples at a time, leave them clamped and cut this 3/8 inch off multiples at a time. This would eliminate band saw or router stated above.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

psfred said:


> Home jigs that let you cut one dado at a time will require two setups and remembering to cut that first one properly.


psfred..I don't understand the two setups you reference. Could you elaborate. 

When I get to the end cut I simply lower my dado blade 4 turns,( that is how many turns it takes to cut off 3/8 inch from the top finger of the long boards on my Craftsman saw) shove sled forward, flip board, slide sled forward, raise dado 4 turns and cut remainder of the box joints. Only additional setup is the time it takes to turn blade down 4 turns and then back up 4 turns.

It is a pain trying to discuss something when all we can do is describe., To bad we don't have interactive video so we could hold up a piece, or run a piece across the saw to show what we are talking about.

Anyway, thanks guys. I learn something new every day. Please don't ever take anything I say as being confrontational, I am just trying to understand. And, if there is a better way of doing it, count me in. I appreciate learning how others do it, and I like sharing what I have learned over the years with others.

How is it that I can reread something I have just typed 10 times for grammar, spelling, and typing, then hit reply, only to read my post and find 5 more errors. Good thing we have edit available. Even then I miss some. 

cchoganjr


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## Rader Sidetrack

KC- I fixed the CODE NOCODE issues and put it into a fixed-pitch font, but I'm not sure exactly how the pic should look.


Code:


\...............\
.\...............\
..\...............\
...\...............\<--Long Side (19 7/8" finished)
....\...............\
.....\...............\
......\________\__________________________________ ___________________________________________
.......l\....3/8" wide x 5/8" deep narrow lip on top of short end (16 1/4") of hive body due to rabbet for hanging frames
.......l..\_______________________________________ _______________________________________________
....l\.l...l
....l.\l...l<--NOTICE STAGGERED NOTCH in long side!
....l......l......O<--nail
....l......l..Double-wide finger (3/4" x 1.5" with 3/8" x 5/8" rabbet on inside)
....\.....l
.....\....l
......\...l......O <--nail
....l\..\.l
....l.\..\l_________
....l..\..l................l
....l...\.l................l
....\...\l_________l..First finger from long side
......\..l
.......\.l
.........l__________
.........l.................l


----------



## kilocharlie

*Graham* - Big thanks! I should have tried the right justify trick. The only problem with my ASCII pic is that some of the lines (namely the 3/8" narrow lip due to the frame hanger rabbet underlines) are too long and wrapped around. It came up right on my screen, but the host isn't quite WYSIWYG. 

Your's is closer - the only miss is there are too many periods in the first finger on the long side (down below the 2nd "O <--nail"). The lower case "l" should line up with the inside edge of the long side, where it diagonals down above. All in all, a fantastic effort. Cheers!

*Cleo* - My digital camera is dead right now, so if you have a *Brushy Mountain Bee Farm 2012 catalog, look carefully at page 8 in the bottom left corner* under the title "Select Woodenware" all 3 boxes are made with this joint, and the medium super shows the top finger the best because the end grain appears a little bit darker, so you can see the staggered notch. From your response, I think you get it now.

Dadant and Sons' 2012 catalog shows on page 12 a stagger but NOT the double-wide finger on the top 16.25" end that gives the huge advantage (more gluing area and 2 fasteners). Mann Lake shows the same mistake on page 13 of it's 2013 catalog, *so check out the Brushy Mountain pic*. Photocopy it and blow it up to full size. Right now, the one in the Brushy Mountain picture is the best way to make standard Langstroth hives and really is worth the small extra effort. BTW, I admire your mental tenacity! You really want to get this...no one can stop a guy like that. Bravo!

One more easy modification to the method you seem to be using now is to put a plate the right thickness (3/8") below the stack of parts in the sled while dado cutting the "short notch" (just for that one funny cut), then remove the plate, index the stack of parts to your next full-depth cut (immediately adjacent to the shallow cut in this case), and continue dado cutting the other fingers as normal. This should be a little bit easier, and it eliminates the need to crank the dado down 4 turns (not easy to repeat accurately). Good luck, and safe journey. - Casey


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## kilocharlie

Has anyone built a gang dado on a shaft? I'm wondering how much deflection due to side loading (cutting force - worst case scenario) and how much safety factor to design into my bearing / shaft combination (figure 10" long shaft supported at both ends)? 

I'm expecting a 1" shaft will do for deeps, with a cast iron flanged, semi-sealed ball bearing with a 4-bolt pattern (about 4.5" square on centers) will do the job, but I'm making the prototype out of 1 1/8" plywood - quick and dirty first, aluminum plate welded later!

My design has 100 workpieces stacked sideways in the big sled, and a gang of cutters on two vertical shafts to cut the whole shebang in one pass. I'm thinking a top frame truss to tie it all together will reduce deflection and hence force-variation will be minimized. Anyone using V-belts? Multi-groove belts? Cog belts? I'd love to hear from anyone who has run some numbers, drawn, or actually built one.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

kilo.. I haven't built one, but, I have seen them, and there is a good example on uTube. I am trying to find it. I think his shaft is about 1 inch, shaft supported by pillow block bearings, and belt driven. He cuts one at a time, but, it is fast, it is a device where you simply drop the wood into a holder, then using a long handle you push the wood forward and it cuts all cuts at one pass. Perhaps 5 seconds each piece.

I can't remember the uTube video, hopefully, someone will, it is something like cheezer or something like that.

I found it... "Behive finger joints" by Justin Cheesman I hope this will link you to it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Sti5hf0Uc His video shows the 3/8 indention on the long side of the bee box.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Thanks, kilocharlie.... I don't have a Brushy Mountain, but, I will see if I can download it. I buy very few bee supplies, mostly frames and foundation. Everything else I make, and if I do need something, Kelly Bee Co. is only 35 minutes from me. For me, the woodworking is almost as much fun as the bees, and it gives me something to do in the Winter.

Yes, I used the 3/8 piece under the stock, but for me it was just as fast to lower 4 turns, cut the two, and crank back up 4 turns, as it was to pick up the spacer, place it on the sled, cut the two pieces and remove the spacer and hang back on the wall with other patterns.

cchoganjr


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## psfred

The gang cutter you describe is probably exactly what's use for production, the only difference would be a mechanism for continuous feeding maybe.

Plan on a 5 horse motor at a minimum, you're gonna need some power to cut that many at once. My saw bogs on a 13/16 cut, let alone eight, with a two horse motor.

Obviously the profile cuts are easy on the gang saw, you just set up whatever you want and have at it. 

Peter


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

kilocharlie...I found another set of video of a gang type machine. Use the search above and search bee box machining center or topkick.

He posted his machine and explained how it works, requires a 5 hp motor. Cuts both ends at one time.. Initial machine used stacked dados, but said his newer machines would use cutter heads. His costs $50,000 - $80,000.

Thought you might find it interesting.

cchoganjr


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## kilocharlie

Cleo - THANK YOU for the you tube link! His Sled mechanism is clever, but not all that efficient, his router jig is comical, but it works. Do check out the strength test video in that group. I see a relation between the finger size and the wood grain - worth investigating. Some folk are not afraid to spend money if they know they will be using the equipment. I'm reducing design work into brutal over-building, and I'm about to do materials list and cost analysis, though I doubt I'll go $50k! The video of the one-at a time (green machine) is surprisingly quick. I do appreciate the comment about stacked dados vs. a custom cutter head. It makes a lot of sense to build a replaceable carbide bit cutting head and run it hot and fast.

Peter - Yes, I am a former employee of an engineering lab famous for power use consulting. These guys made an aeroplane that you fly by pedaling like a bicycle. So I'm aware of power requirement calcualtions in machine designs. 

Deflection of the shaft could cause a huge spike in the power requirement, and so ridgidity of design is a serious concern. I will run some cutting force tests on small scale and multiply it up. Usually about 1.5 horses per saw blade goes through, but 2 1/4 hp per blade makes quick work of it and 3 hp per blade obliterates anything that would cause a bog down in pine wood. I have learned to like sharp cutters, appropriate cutter rake, clearance and sett angles, and enough power over the years. Being that I am building a water wheel, my power calculations may be all for naught. I'll have to use what ever power the water will allow and back off on my material-removed-per-unit-time expectations.


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## Rader Sidetrack

kilocharlie said:


> Being that I am building a water wheel, my power calculations may be all for naught. I'll have to use what ever power the water will allow and back off on my material-removed-per-unit-time expectations.


OK, I couldn't let this pass without comment. :lookout: Does this really mean you are planning to build a gang saw capable of cutting box-style joints and powering the saw with a _water wheel_? 

I understand you are in California, but what is behind the water wheel idea (besides water)?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

kilocharlie...Yes I had seen that strength test. A little crude using the bathroom scale, but, I guess it will do. 

As far as joints for making bee boxes go, I firmly believe any joint, with glue, and nails/staples will outlive the beekeeper, if good wood and good preservative is used. It is easy to get people going on box joints, dovetails, rabbet, butt, etc, I say make whatever people want to make, and it will work for beekeeping.

cchoganjr


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## deknow

I have an old 1880's AI Root catalog...it shows gang saws for making boxes....specifies that they are treadle powered, and can be adapted to steam at an extra cost.

deknow


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## kilocharlie

Graham and Deknow - Yes. Most of the People's Republik of Kalifornia is either on steam power or hydro power (Edison Grid), a few out near Tehachapi and Mojave are now on wind / solar augmented grid. My mini-catamaran water wheel can be tethered or anchored in any current and produce a small amount of power. I can make a lot of them for fairly cheap, and perhaps the power controller / battery bank can save enough to run it. We are looking forward to moving away from this area and up into the Mother Lode country where water is more plentiful.

I did meet a guy who has a pickup truck with big coils in the bed. He parks it under the high tension wire towers and runs a Skilsaw off it. I'm sure the Edison boys won't like him very much.

A sterling steam engine-powered generator is quite simple, gives decent efficiency, and wood fire is the heat source. It is on the list for a few years in the future, so we will have some solar, some hydro, and some steam power. Wind is difficult to deal with as the frequency keeps changing, and I don't really have a way of regulating it, a 150' tower is not cheap, and wind is not reliable, nor is at the correct speed very often, so we are not really considering it, even though I have designed propellers before.

If I had a decent heat difference source, an ORC would be preferable, but an appropriate turbine is difficult and expensive to build. I helped designed an 8-stroke cycle engine to scavenge heat downstream from the turbine on an ORC a couple years ago, but the California Dept. of Energy is no longer funding ICE designs, so we never built the proof-of-concept. We were expecting a combined heat efficiency of the system to break into the mid-90% area, but California wants ZERO exhaust. Either way, ORC's are too expensive for me.

A promising thing is Bruce Crower's 6-stroke cycle engine patent. I've been encouraging them to build kits for a Chevy and a Ford smallblock conversion to 6-stroke, so you are using half the gasoline and half purified water. It involves a custom head and camshaft, among other things, and is probably a few years away. I may ask permission to get the drop on them for my own use, but for now, whatever is quick, cheap, and makes some power - a tub wheel and a Sterling. I already have an Onan 4-stroke gasoline generator.

Now treadle-powered, that's REAL MAN stuff!


----------



## Specialkayme

I've been contemplating getting one of these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Sti5hf0Uc but I haven't been able to get in touch with Cheesman to confirm a price. So I've been thinking about building my own. I figured I could get my own shaft and thread it with 7 dado blades (@$100 a piece), and power it with a 10 h.p. motor (pricing I've seen is around $700). But I don't know ANYTHING about metal working, so I'd have to find someone to build the housing unit for me. I don't even know where to go for that . . . 

I would like to find a way to have the motor power the dado blades (or custom cutter head . . . don't even know where to look for that) AND 7 individual drill bits, so it would cut the fingers and drill the holes for the nails all at the same time. I'd also like to find a way to design it so you could slide the board to the left and cut the longer side (with the half finger) and if you slide it to the right you cut the shorter side (with the thicker top finger). Did any of that make sense? 

I think I have an idea, but don't know where to take it . . . and don't want to spend $30k to get it to an end product.


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## kilocharlie

How about several of us plan to meet at an apimondia conference or other big bee conference and build ONE of these high-production suckers? Fifteen of us re-inventing the wheel all over the country may flood the market. I have a copy of Palo Alto software's Business Plan Pro, we could lock in a design, cost it out, get it financed, and actually start cracking out hive bodies in lots of 50 to 100 per pass. Assembly would be the slow part.

A big club of beehive builders could make use of a school woodshop, build perhaps 3 machines (East Coast, Midwest, West Coast) and trailers for them. We could take turns using them as we acquire the wood, all the while splitting the cost of building them.

Pipe dream, perhaps, but it might actually work.


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## Fishman43

Specialkayme said:


> I've been contemplating getting one of these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Sti5hf0Uc but I haven't been able to get in touch with Cheesman to confirm a price.


Any luck yet contacting Cheesman?



Specialkayme said:


> I figured I could get my own shaft and thread it with 7 dado blades (@$100 a piece)...


Why not go with the Corob type cutter heads mentioned early in this thread? At $60 a piece, and replacement blade sets only $18 you are ahead $22 per cutter on the first buy ($154 @ seven heads) and significantly more when you need to just replace the $18 blade sets later down the road.

http://corobcutters.com/mhkhd50moldingknifeheaddelta.aspx


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## Specialkayme

Fishman43 said:


> Any luck yet contacting Cheesman?


Afraid not.



Fishman43 said:


> Why not go with the Corob type cutter heads mentioned early in this thread?


When I was looking for cutter heads, most that I was seeing was in the $150-300 range. http://www.cggschmidt.com/store/cutter_heads.php

I don't know much about cutter heads, so maybe I was looking at the wrong thing. Your link provided much more economical cutter heads, but none of them appeared to provide what I needed them to. The one you linked to is 7/8" thick, meaning you wouldn't be able to cut 3/4" finger joints with it unless the cutter blade was the only thing extending upward and it was 3/4". If the one you linked was 3 5/8" in diameter w/o the cutters, and 4 7/8" in diameter w/ the cutters, that would give it a cut depth of 5/8" above the head. 

http://corobcutters.com/mhk75moldinghead.aspx

This one might work better, but at $90 a piece (not counting the cutter heads) we are getting close to the price of a dado blade. 

http://corobcutters.com/moldingknivesbycorob.aspx

I also don't see the 3/4" flat molding knife option anywhere. I guess I could take the 1" one and shave 1/8" off either side, but that's just a pain in the ***.

But, I'm not overly concerned about the blades. I think I could take a 5/8" shaft, slap 7 or so dado blades (or the right cutter heads) on the shaft, properly spaced out, belt drive it to a 10 h.p. motor, set it up like a standard table saw and have a dedicated sled attached to the table and I'd be in working order. None too safe, but working. My larger concern is with getting a multi spindle drill going, to drill all the holes in the finger joints at the same time as I cut the fingers. I haven't been able to solve that problem yet, other than buying 7 drill presses and mounting them sideways (or go super cheap, and 7 hand drills mounted to brackets, but you get the point). Any ideas on that front?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Specialkayme said:


> My larger concern is with getting a multi spindle drill going, to drill all the holes in the finger joints at the same time as I cut the fingers.


Here's one option:
http://www.autodrill.com/primer.htm


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## Specialkayme

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Here's one option:
> http://www.autodrill.com/primer.htm


Very neat Rader. I like it. I didn't see any price ranges, and my guess is they are costly, but probably would pay for themselves in spades over time.

Only issue I saw was with the width of each unit. If I need to drill a hole in each 3/4" finger, and each finger has 3/4" of dead space on either side, that means I only have 1 1/2" clearance for a drill to fit. Larger than that and it would take the space of the next drill. The thinnest unit that I could find on that link was 2 7/16" in width, almost close to twice the width I would need. I could stagger them, and have them positioned almost like stadium seating with the back row of drills having bits that are long enough to drill at the same depth, but that would require a drill bit that was 11 1/4" longer than the previous drill bit. That long of a bit could result in some breaking, would require more torque and more HP to function, and I'm not sure if it would be economical. I could also have two rows facing each other, requiring two passes (a forward and a backward), but double the work and cutting time decreases its efficiency.

I would imagine I could contact them and request a custom built operation, but the cost involved would likely be too great, and if I went that high I'd probably be better off purchasing one of the $50k automated machines.

I was actually thinking something more like having 7 drill bits attached to a belt and driven by one motor. I don't have a clue if that would work or not though.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Specialkayme said:


> I could also have two rows facing each other, requiring two passes (a forward and a backward), but double the work and cutting time decreases its efficiency.


The units linked above use air for rotation, but also use air to move the bit laterally. So you could have a row of four inline, spaced to drill every _other _hole, and on the backside, three more lined up with the other four to cover the missing holes. Slide (or lower) the board into position, and start the air. All holes get drilled in one motion.


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## Specialkayme

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The units linked above use air for rotation, but also use air to move the bit laterally.


Interesting. I didn't know that. That could change everything 

I sent them an inquiry to see what it would cost to set up what I needed. I have a feeling it will be too costly, but only one way to find out.


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## Specialkayme

AutoDrill got back to me pretty quickly. Their opinion was that the best route was to mount a 5 spindle head to a decent size drill press. Unfortunately, they said the cost is quite high for a home or small business use. It could run about $2000. Considering that a good drill press would run $500-900, that comes to a much higher price tag than I was considering/hoping.

I'm still thinking it would be better for me to take 5 drill heads and mount it to a steel plate and have it powered by a 5 hp motor attached to a belt.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Lots of drill presses available on Craigslist. Here's an interesting one near you:
http://greensboro.craigslist.org/bfs/3494849311.html


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## Specialkayme

Lol, my concern wasn't the drill press, it was the $2k to convert it to a 5 spindle head.


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## deknow

....not a bad idea. It might be even easier overall to pick up some cheap (HD or Harbor) drill presses...all the same model (and even a couple of spares for the future), and come up with a mounting system.

I'd consider something that looks like a "sensitive drill press", where the workpiece/table is moved into stationary drill heads.

deknow


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## kilocharlie

Anybody wanting to make a "Quick-and-Dirty" mock-up first could consider a Harbor Freight dado set at about $25 apiece (and use the 20% off coupons ~ $20 each bought 1 at a time). They don't last very long, but cut the soft pine well enough for a few. 

I would not consider them for an actual production machine. If you're gonna compete, get the best carbide you can buy - mount them on tool steel form cutters, build a arbor shaft that will take the load and then some, support the bearings with serious rigidity, and figure the drive system to be appropriate for the power applied. Power the machine so that the motor runs at 50% or lower - burning a little more juice is cheaper than burning motors! 

Building a weak "Q & D" mock-up is not a bad idea at all - it reveals all the problems before you design the real thing. Use it to test on scrap wood - not even good enough for real parts, or at least the worst wood of the run. Try to cut your blanks so that there are no knots near the fingers - better parts and lower load on the machine, not to mention longer cutter life and the staples go in straight after you cut 'em.

Daniel Y - Another point about wood planks cupping is that plainsawn planks tend to cup much more severely than quartersawn planks. Quartersawn sugarpine makes excellent boxes as it cups, warps and shrinks, very little, and lasts longer than cypress when treated with 50% Linseed oil / 50% Mineral spirits if you dunk them for 3 to 5 minutes, and paint them every year or two (depending on your climate).


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## kilocharlie

One more trick for you guys drilling the side bars - make the profile, slice it into pieces about 4 or 5 parts thick, drill the holes, then slice them apart. Wah-lah! Holes in 4 or 5 parts instead of a $2,000 multi spindle head.


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## Daniel Y

Just make sure you get that piece dead plumb before drilling or every pieces will have holes drilled just slightly more and more off center.


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## kilocharlie

Daniel Y said:


> Just make sure you get that piece dead plumb before drilling or every pieces will have holes drilled just slightly more and more off center.


Exactly. It would help to make sure they are fairly parallel-sided and the hole line aligns with the wax plane, too. This is how I used to do it, first two at a time, then 3, then 4, then 5...at 6 I had too many off-centers. If you have a planer, you could probably go more than I did and still get good results.


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