# how much shade is too much shade?



## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

my hives are facing east, with a row of trees behind them. they get direct sunlight from sunrise to noon, then the sun passes over the trees and the hives are in the shade until sunset.

is this too much shade?


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## Ribster (Nov 3, 2004)

In my opinion, that should be fine. You want them to be in the shade around noon when the day's heat is bearing down on them. If the trees are deciduous, then the hives will get a little more sun in the winter months.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

my bee's are set up the same as yours buford, I have had no trouble so for, been nice on the hive's in this 90+ degree weather also.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Sounds like the perfect setup! Sunlight/heat in the AM to get the girls moving, and cooler in the PM to cut down on fanning for Temp. control + more field bees gathering nectar and pollen.


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## buford (Feb 22, 2005)

thanks.

i asked this question because i heard that hive beetles target shaded hives and i wanted to know if i may be creating the environment they like.

i haven't seen 'em yet (hope i never do).


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## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

In my opinion, full sun is best. I know their are a lot of old timers and those stuck in their ways of doing things the way they have always done, and they will disagree with me, but here is my reasoning:

Full sun provides more radiant heat to the hives obviously, therefore raising the internal temps which will evaporate more moisture out of the nectar allowing the honey to cure faster without the need for the bees to fan it. As long as there is an exhaust port in the top of the hive, the colony will function more efficiently, by allowing convection to move the humidity out of the hive and letting foragers continue to bring back more nectar.

If the hive lacks proper ventilation out the top, the heat will build up and not be exhausted, causing the bees to work harder to cool the colony, and eventually cause the comb to collapse. This is true even if you have a screened bottom board, as heat can not be pulled from the top to be exhausted out the bottom.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Phoenix
Walk into a tin top shed when the temp is 90+ and the sun is bearing down. Even with vents along the roof line, you won't stay in there very long on a hot afternoon. 
I think you need to rethink your thinking, don't you think?


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Am planning on moving my hives a little further from the back door--some visitors are scared of bees--now the hives are less than a hundred feet and in full sun. Planning on moving them about a hundred yards into a setup like buford is having, even have an old claw foot bathtub connected to a wet weather spring for water. Will move them this winter after we get a good bear proof fence built. Hope the girls like it.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

power napper 
Bears in the freezer, AKA steaks, don't bother bees.


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Hey iddee, my freezer is full of blueberries.


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

Those who say full sun are absolutely right, and those who clamor for afternoon shade are also absolutely right. 

It depends on what your temperatures are like. I expect down south, where temps are high for a large part of the year, afternoon shade is ideal. In my area where extremely high heat is much less common, but cool temps can happen any time, full sun is probably the better situation. 

I heard somewhere that you should grow castor bean plants by your hives. The beans are tall enough by mid summer to provide some shade, but when the weather cools off in late summer you can cut the plants off to give full sun again. I may try it next year -- the seed is cheap.


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## Romahawk (Jul 11, 2005)

You might want to think over the idea of planting a Castor been plant. They are a beautiful plant especially when in bloom but the seeds are poison to both human and animals and they could become a huge liability. In some places I believe it is illegal to grow them.


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Why not just plant sunflower seeds around the hives if you want shade? Some of their stocks are almost big enough to use a chain saw to cut them down and the bees would have the flowers to work on.


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

I grow castor beans sometimes near my patio for the dramatic effect. They look great. I don't worry too much about the toxicity. On the other hand, I own a greenhouse business and I would NEVER SELL castor bean plants. There's just too much potential for liability.

I had never grown them by the bee hives and sunflowers sound like a great alternative. Maybe I'll try those instead.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

All beekeeping is local.

Dickm


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

is that you, Tip Oneal?


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## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

> I think you need to rethink your thinking, don't you think?


Uhhhhhhh, Nope.

Like I said, some will disagree.

I have a good understanding of convection, and the taller the hive gets the more the heat will rise out the top, acting like a chimney, and pull cooler air up from the bottom, until the outside temps get above 95 degrees or so. Which means of course, this method would not work well in a tropical location.

I do have ventilated attic boxes on my hives also, to allow for more air volume to exhaust out the top, as well as provide a buffer from the direct radiant heat from the outer cover.

I performed side by side studies on my hives before completely changing over to this method of management. Colonies were of equal strength and volume, all consisting of a screened bottom board, and all hives had a remote temperature monitor. I installed my vented attics on the half in full sun. In every case, the hives without full sun did not produce as much honey, and they continued to beard and fan the entrance. The internal temperatures of the shaded hives still averaged 15 degrees warmer. The shaded colonies also seemed to be targeted by SHB moreso than the hives in full sun.

While keeping each colony in it's original location, I then switched the tops. The hives which were still bearding in the shade, suddenly went inside. The hives in full sun, now started to beard. This was enough proof for me.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

The hives I have in the full sun seem to be meaner and produce less honey. All my hives have upper and lower entrances as well as SBB's.

My best results are achieved when set on the East side of a tree row facing East.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

BB, you're experiance is consistent with mine and virutally every expert I've read on the subject. Possibly Phoenix may be dealing with a specific climate area impact due to being so far north. I'd be curious to see the average mean temps (night and day) in his area vs. mine, yours and some farther south. Of course if it is a climatic influence there must be many other beekeepers who should be aware of his research results.


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## franc (Jan 7, 2003)

Ive had hives do good with full sun, facing due south.It maybe because our main flows are in the spring and late summer/fall.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

The hives I had in the shade had more problems from all sources and produced less honey. I wish someone had told me to put my hives in the sun when I began. Thats in Ct. As I said, all beekeeping is local. I certainly would not advise full sun in Ga.

Dickm


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Dickm, you are right on the money.

Buford, if you read any book on beekeeping, you will get the same "general" advice. Hives facing east, morning sun, afternoon shade, protection from the wind, and so on. And in general sense, its all good. But your not in Florida, Texas, , etc. your in West Virginia. Where afternoon shade might be good in the south, it is not needed in the northern climate.

If you were to set one hive in shade and one in sun, a few observations could be noted. The hive in the full sun will work earlier in the morning, later in the day, earlier in the spring, and later in the fall. 

The hive in the shade will have moisture (dew, frost, rain, etc) at the entrance and surrounding vegetation longer. This hive may experience more secondary stress deseases such as chalk brood, sacbrood, etc. In the spring, brood buildup will be slower and chilling may be increased.

Interesting, is that mites are very heat sensitive. If you could raise the temperature of a hive 5 or ten degrees, you could kill the v-mites. Unfortunately, bees are also temperature sensitive. They are also very good at regulating the hives temp. Knowing this, differences in mite counts for shade hives vs those in sun can be seen. Shade hives overall, will have higher mite counts.

If you have screen bottom boards and/or upper entrances, full sun is no concern for the bees in your part of the country. Of course most beekeepers like the afternoon shade.

If they work longer and earlier, than production will most certainly be increased. 10% is hard to track and prove in honey from year to year, but I'll take any little advantage.

That same advantage can be related to overall hive health. If your helping the bees with condensation and moisture concerns, and more brood is raised, and stress deseases are minimized, by having hives in full sun, than the hive production and hive kill rate will improve.

In percenatge terms, items such as genetic advantages of some bee lines, screen bottom boards, upper entrances, etc, all make little differences. Alone, some benefits are small, and sometimes are not easily seen. All put together, they can account for alot. In both honey production and winter survival.


As for agressiveness, I think that has alot to do with the increased activity of a hive in full sun. I can go out in the morning when its a little cool, and the bess are lethargic, and they seem easier to handle. A little later, as it warms up, and activity increases, of course they respond a little different. I'll take the increased activity and production anytime. And thats not to say someone may have a different opinion based on thier experience with meaner hives in full sun. Coincidents perhaps?

Put one in full sun, and one in shade. You will see the difference.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm sure climate is a big part of what works one place and not another. I used to shoot for the morning sun and afternoon shade, but the ones in full sun always seemed to produce better and have less problems like chaulkbrood or "failure to thrive".

All in all, though, the bees seem to adapt to whatever so if it's a big inconvenience for you to put them in full sun, I woulnd't worry too much. Also, it IS nice on a hot day to work the ones in the shade.


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## Darrel Wright (Jun 30, 2004)

I go mostly with the east facing treerow situation you described and like it, but I think there are too many other factors to prefer one setup. My location has a pretty strong prevailing breeze from the west that I think keeps moisture related problems to a minimum. Without a breeze here in humid NE Ohio, I would prefer full sun.

Sun heats and dries. IMO if you need it warmer and drier, more sun is probably better.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I get morning sun but not real early. I get shade that moves along and covers different hives at different times in the early afternoon. In late afternoon they are all mostly in the shade. It gets much darker much earlier where my hives sit than in the wide open. 

My observations. My bees seem to start very early even though shaded in very early morning. However, as the shade moves over the hives in mid afternoon the hives whose entrances are NOT shaded seem to have more bees flying at the entrance. Go back out later when different hives are in the full sun and those hives will have more bees flying. I had expected that my hives in shade would fly more as it would take less of them to cool the hive. (assuming a hot summer day)That doesn't seem to be the case.

The one drawback for my location is that the dense shade in late afternoon really seems to cut down the flying and seems to cut short their foraging activities.

All in all, I'll take less honey and more personal comfort working in the shade! 

As a side note: I do remember when I was kept bees with my dad when I was younger we had a couple of hives (maybe 3)in the woods that had dense shade almost constantly in the summer. They never did very well. Never built up well and ultimately they all succumbed. I would think that constant dense shade is too much shade.

Dan


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Even though the night temps here are now going as low as the mid 60's F, the day temps are still 100F or more. Full-sun can be okay for strong colonies, but I've had some, less than strong, have the combs in their top supers melt down, when in full sun. One of my apiaries, in a shade cloth blind, has no top shade, that's the only location that has had "melt-downs". My other apiary has, as part of its shade-cloth blind, a piece of shade-cloth over its top. No melt-downs there. My 4 nucs are in deep shade under a mesquite tree -- here are pics of two of them: http://www.wjclemens.com/cordovan-honeybee/general_hive_photos/Nuc_A.jpg
http://www.wjclemens.com/cordovan-honeybee/general_hive_photos/Nuc_D.jpg


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm sure climate is an issue. I've never had one melt down. Rarely I've had a comb collapse on a really hot day.


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## sampa (Mar 14, 2005)

I've just moved both my hives into an area where they will have full shade at all times. They are under an old stable that was farther from my house. My dog was not getting along with them, and I like my dog more than my bees. They seem to be doing quite well there so far. I moved one hive about 2 months ago, and it's thriving. The other I moved about a week ago, and she isn't doing well yet. I was wondering if the increased night time temperature would help offset the decreased day temp? They also don't get rained on or get any dew in that location.

sam


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