# Help! Comb Collapse



## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi Alethea

I would be inclined to just let the comb lie for now. It seems to just get worse sometimes if you try to mess with it too much. They will no doubt brace and build it up from where it is, leaving a mess. But hopefully they will continue to care for and seal the brood. Then once it is empty comb again you can remove it and replace it with straight comb or empty top bars.
I suggest that you try putting a wood top on and paint it plain white. That will reflect the heat the best. If you really want to insulate it make it double thick with two inches of air between the two sheets of plywood. The air will be a good insulater. 

Then you can als position / make the top so that there is another layer of air between the bottom of the cover and the top bars.

THis should insulate well even in the warmest climate.

With all due regard, however, I must confess to some jealousy as the wind whips the latest snowfall across my frozen pond and huddling hives.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've had a complete collapse before. Like a row of dominoes. That's why I made my combs smaller. What I did was cut all the combs to fit in frames and tied them in, just like a "cut out", and put them in a regular hive. Since it's just two combs, I'd probably just bide my time for a little while. IMO it will be difficult to get the combs to stay unless you build a frame to fit the top bar hive and tie the combs in the frame.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi bobobee,

It seems like quite a few tbhers had problems with comb collapse the first season. I did, but haven't had any problems since then. I just raised the cover using a couple of wood blocks. That allows air to circulate above the top bars when the weather gets hot.

Regards
Dennis
Thinking it will be months before it even begins to get hot in Wyoming


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## bobobee (May 21, 2004)

Thanks for the advice. I have decided to leave the comb alone & see how it goes. My husband was thinking about modifying the top bars by inserting a 1/4" dowel in the center to give the comb a little more stability. Has anyone done this? I've just baited my two empty tbh's from last year with lemongrass oil in hopes of attracting a couple of swarms. 

alethea


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My husband was thinking about modifying the top bars by inserting a 1/4" dowel in the center to give the comb a little more stability. Has anyone done this?

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/top-bars/


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## bobobee (May 21, 2004)

Thanks for the link. Good to have some feedback so we don't make the same mistake - by the way, I used top bar guys design for my tbh's. My top bars are ripped from 2 x 4s to 1-1/4" wide by 1-2/8" deep with a 60 degree bevel on either side & I rub the bottom (which is about 1/8" wide flat) with beeswax. The bees seem to build quite nicely off of this. I was thinking that the beveled edge would give the bees a stronger surface to attach to than a flat bar. After this collapse, I'm reevaluating everything but attribute the collapse to the lack of ventilation above the top bars & the copper roof rather than the top bar design.

Alethea


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Bobobee,

I'll bet you can keep the copper roof if you give them ventilation between the top bars and the cover.

I also like having an entrance on both ends of the hive. The entrance on the far end can be opened to provide additional ventilation when needed.

Also, once the combs have 'aged' for a season, they become much stronger.

Regards
Dennis


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## bobobee (May 21, 2004)

what is so frustrating about this collapse is that the oldest combs were the ones that collapsed - but they were also the biggest & heavy with brood, pollen & honey. I didn't feed this hive anything over the winter & it was just a small swarm last fall. It has built up really nicely this spring. This hive has really sold me on TBH's & I don't think I'll be buying anymore Lang equipment in the future.

alethea


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Don't get discouraged I agree with Dennis ventilate it you may also want to check out Michael's web site I'm going with his top entrances this year. I don't have skunk problems but I sure like the ventilation advantage!


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## bobobee (May 21, 2004)

Hi-

I just checked my TBH that had the collapse on Saturday. There was still some capped brood on the top comb so I didn't take the collapsed comb out yet. It looked like they were filling the avalable cells on the collapsed comb with necter. What was amazing is that the bees had already built out the empty bars above the collapse to a bees space above the collapsed comb. The collapse didn't really seem to slow them down at all. They had also started another six or so bars since the last I looked. This hive is really pumping! I have to also comment on how gentle this hive 
is. I keep reading that TBH hives are more gentle and I definately concur. I'm hoping to fill my two empty TBH's with swarms in the next few weeks. Michael Bush- thank you so much for turning me on to the use of lemon grass essential oil as a swarm lure. I set up an empty medium super with a few drops of lemongrass oil on the frames on my back deck a few weeks ago & on Saturday at exactly noon a large swarm decended on my back deck & went into the hive. Such a beautiful sight to behold & I didn't have to do a thing! I've got about eight more swarm lures set up so I hope I have the same luck with them. Thanks again!

Alethea


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

HEY,
I had the same thing happen A large swarm decended on one of my dead outs from last year that had ten bars in it..........They did'nt move in they robbed it and went home!!!! thought I sealed it up good guess not!


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## Bryon (Mar 29, 2005)

This is just a thought but I think that maybe the bees wax you put on the top bars may have been part of the problem. My thought is that if the bees had built the comb them selves from the wood, then the wax would have had a kinda grain to it since they build it a pit at a time. just smearing a layer of wack over something wouldn't give it the same structure as that built up by the bees. Think of a stone wall where every part relies on every other part for stability. 

This is gust a guess but it sounds good to me. 

I have also read recently where a person hung a piece of the film used in standards hive frames from the center of his top bars with very nice results. on the same page It said that you can use about a 1 inch strip if this film hung from the center of the top bar so that the bees know where to center up their comb on the bar. it sounds like it would add structre to the top of the comb where most of the stress is. If I can find the site I was reading last night i'll post a link to it later.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

I agree with Bryon. I don't like using starter strips or wax smearing to guild the bees. I cut my top bars to a point to help aid the bees decide where to start drawing comb, but truly once you have more than two combs, you already have your guides. Let the bees make a mess the first year. The 2nd year, early on in spring if possible, cull all the messy comb and use the best as guides by staggering good combs with empty frames. Try to keep the ordering straight though, don't use combs from the "back" of the brood nest in the front of the hive. Try to keep them where they are if you can, just place empty bars where the culls came from.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

I forgot to mention, I like to take my culls and move them to the very back of the hive to let any brood emerge that will.


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Nice pictures Scot, thanks 
Terry


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi Scott and Bryon and all.

I have to say that I dont think putting wax on the top bars to get them started will cause comb collapse, at least if you melt the wax and brush it on. The way they lock in the comb to the top bar is pretty amazing. I just got done scraping the top bars of a dead out and believe me the attachments were really strong!

Good luck to all Top Bar Hivers this Year!

Best,


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## bobobee (May 21, 2004)

Thanks for the good advice. I just started my 2nd tbh with a swarm my husband & I collected on Thursday. The swarm was settling on brambles by the side of the road. They seem to be strong. One more tbh to fill & then I have to start making more. 

Alethea


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