# Natural comb, drones, and mites ???



## A'sPOPPY (Oct 13, 2010)

Is is a good thing or a bad thing to have more drones which attract mites ?
Lots of mites in the debri tray, bees seem fine, good or bad ?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well it's a trade off. Varroa mites can build their population faster in a hive, the more drone brood.

But we have to have drones.

The second part of your question, if there's a lot of mites on your tray, then you should be concerned, even if the bees seem fine.
The thing to do is use one of several existing methods to find out just what the mite % is, and then monitor it to see if it's increasing. thing is, there's so many variables, such as, do you have a varroa tolerant strain of bee, that it is not really possible to give an exact course of action, based on the info you have given.

But mites in the tray, yes, I'd worry, until I had a better idea just how many in the hive and if it's worsening.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The first mistake is the assumption that you can control the number of drones. But if you could, the second is that less drones would be good. Yes the drones act as a magnet for the Varroa, but also more reproduction for the Varroa. This does skew numbers on mite counts. If you get the damage to the bees to occur to the drones instead of the workers, do you have a healthier hive?


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> If you get the damage to the bees to occur to the drones instead of the workers, do you have a healthier hive?


 This is what I see with my hives and isn't it the drones that are pressured by the mites and still healthy the ones you really want flying out to the congregation areas?

I know of at least one study where colonies that produced drones freely had less mites compared too colonies that had drone production limited. Would be nice to see some follow up research.

What I would ask is, should you have a high population of drones at this time of year in your location? Could be there is more than one issue going on depending on why you are asking.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Varroa reproduce much more successfully in drone brood. Once those new varroa emerge, there’s no reason to believe that they will only parasitize drones.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

I let my hives raise as many drones as they wanted in foundationless frames last year and the result was severe varroa infestation once drone production stopped in the late summer. One hive died from PMS and the other almost followed the same fate before I saved it with treatment.

This upcoming season, I am planning to use drone traps to monitor the degree of Varroa infestation - low infestation, I will allow the drones to emerge - moderate infestation, the drone brood will be frozen.

What I am struggling with is how bees in unmanaged ('feral') colonies cope with Varroa. They raise all the drones they want, no doubt they have Varroa infestation, and yet many of them survive (or at least appear to survive).

At least one aspect is that unmanaged colonies will typically swarm one or several times in the spring and so will undergo a broodless period, while we do our best to prevent our managed colonies from swarming. Managing drone production, and/or simulating swarming (broodless period), and/or treating to reduce infestation levels in the fall may be the price we beekeepers need to pay in exchange for preventing our bees from swarming.

-fafrd


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

fafrd said:


> What I am struggling with is how bees in unmanaged ('feral') colonies cope with Varroa. They raise all the drones they want, no doubt they have Varroa infestation, and yet many of them survive (or at least appear to survive).
> 
> At least one aspect is that unmanaged colonies will typically swarm one or several times in the spring and so will undergo a broodless period, while we do our best to prevent our managed colonies from swarming. Managing drone production, and/or simulating swarming (broodless period), and/or treating to reduce infestation levels in the fall may be the price we beekeepers need to pay in exchange for preventing our bees from swarming.
> 
> -fafrd


The answer is that the "feral" bees are not actually "feral" bees... This is a huge misconception... Our native bees were wiped out long ago... what is left are AMM, swarms from apiaries, and hybrids of the two... genetics from varroa resistant colonies spread to swarms from other apiaries and AMM have adapted beautifully...

I here a lot about people capturing swarms to breed from their "feral" genetics... but the reality is that all they have done is taken a swarm from someone elses bees... most likely one that had either been treated, or was from resistant stock to begin with.

Not ALL bee keepers try to prevent swarming... from a developement stand point, swarming is a way of producing the next generation... and thus the next level of resistance...

Drones are necessary for good bee keeping in the long run... we can control the production of drones by killing drone brood, allowing mite populations to weaken and disease the drones, and limiting drone cells... but the trade off is loss of colonies in the future... when a colony with a drone shortage swarms (and it eventually will... even if you try to control it), the new queen will HAVE to mate... she will either be poorly mated, inbred, or mated to someone elses drones... Requeening is the ONLY way to fix this problem if you are in an area with no other bee keepers... Thus it is best to keep several colonies (without queens from the same mother), and allow drone production, and control the mites by other means... you can ADD and extra frame of drone cells for use as a trap, but taking too many drones from each colony will only lead to trouble.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

rrussell6870 said:


> The answer is that the "feral" bees are not actually "feral" bees... This is a huge misconception... Our native bees were wiped out long ago... what is left are AMM, swarms from apiaries, and hybrids of the two... genetics from varroa resistant colonies spread to swarms from other apiaries and AMM have adapted beautifully...
> 
> I here a lot about people capturing swarms to breed from their "feral" genetics... but the reality is that all they have done is taken a swarm from someone elses bees... most likely one that had either been treated, or was from resistant stock to begin with.


"A *feral* organism is one that has escaped from domestication and returned, partly or wholly, to a wild state."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral

Since none of our bees are ever domesticated, feral is used to define any bee that is living "in the wild" (not in a beekeepers hive) for a period of time. The longer the better so as to breed out genetics that would otherwise be propped up.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

In what way could the genetics be bred out? They are breeding with other colonies of "kept" bees that are in one way or another "assisted" be it treatments (chemical or non) or housing... bees can not survive the environment that has been created by man's imports/exports without the measures that we take to "prop them up". I'm not referring to chemical use, but to breeding for traits that counter our own environmental corruption as well... what is considered the "wild" in the US today, is far different than that of most other regions...

I also disagree about bees not having been domesticated... we force their adaptation and location to suit our needs.... we manage them, breed them, alter them to behave the way we deem best... they are very much livestock to many commercial operations.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

rrussell6870 said:


> In what way could the genetics be bred out? They are breeding with other colonies of "kept" bees that are in one way or another "assisted" be it treatments (chemical or non) or housing...


Every time they breed the "kept" genetics get diluted. That's why I said feral needs to have some time applied to it (2-3 years/generations).



> bees can not survive the environment that has been created by man's imports/exports without the measures that we take to "prop them up". I'm not referring to chemical use, but to breeding for traits that counter our own environmental corruption as well...


Spoken like a true bee breeder!?



> I also disagree about bees not having been domesticated... we force there adaptation to location to suit our needs... they are very much livestock to many commercial operations.


I've yet to see any farmer have livestock and not have fences. There is nothing keeping any hive of bees from leaving the hive and moving elsewhere. You're simply going along with what the bees want, unlike livestock.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>bees can not survive the environment that has been created by man's imports/exports without the measures that we take to "prop them up"

I and many like me, take no measures to "prop them up" and ours are doing fine. Bees can and do survive without any measures at all both in my hives and in the wild.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

You provide a roof, four walls, management practices, and breeding practices... none of which are found in the "wild"... the term "propped up" was used to describe all "kept" bees... I merely quoted it... 

And No, the "kept" bee genetics are not "bred out" or "diluted" through time when a swarm leaves a hive body.... the colony simply breeds back to whatever colonies are in the area (which are "kept bees")... there are no genetic differences in bees that live in a hive body, wall, tree trunk, or tree limb... 

Bees could Not survive our interference on the US habitat... we brought the mites, beetles, etc... bees have had to adapt to survive and that process is on going, not an over night fix... These threats are not found all at once in the "wild"... we have combined them into locations based around ourselves... the US is most likely the harshest environment for bees of today... here they face all of the worlds threats at once... 

Up until the mid 90s swarms would leave our hives and take up residence just about anywhere and thats where we would find them... we cut comb from them, and they would build it right back and stay with no worries... up until a few years ago, these swarms were all killed off... as our bees built resistances to mites, they started being able to stay once again, but that doesnt mean that the "wild" made them that way... after all, they were bees that we had been breeding for this resistance for a very long time... then here comes the SHB... wiped out again... what percentage of the swarms that last long enough to be considered "feral" will get wiped out by SHB in the next 10 years?? Hive bodies are not what makes the difference... management practices, breeding practices, and protection from predation in an environment that has the worlds predators all in one place... thats what makes the difference...

Don't think bees are livestock because we don't fence them? I have guineas, peacocks, cats, dogs, and even a pigmy/nubian cross goat that are not fenced... they are far from wild... they may leave my land, but they return each time... not because they are dependant on me, but because the are domesticated... What about free-range chickens? Think that chickens are "wild" creatures? No... far from it... they stay around the farm because it easier for them... just like all livestock used to... just like bees stay in the boxes... I raise horses as a hobby... they are behind a tiny three strand wire fence.... think they can't leave when ever they get ready? Not true.. those 1400 # horses can walk through those tiny wires without thinking twice (and have several times...ugh), why don't they? Because its easier in my pastures and barn where the grass is fertilized, hay is fed all winter, and grain is fed twice a day... does that make them weak? Not at all... they are exactly what they are suppose to be... horses... the same is true of bees... pre-mite bees were not "weak", they were exactly what they were suppose to be... bees... so we are not breeding vsh to make "bees" better, we are simply trying to help them survive the hostile environment that WE created, not the WILD...


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## A'sPOPPY (Oct 13, 2010)

I just arrived home after a very long day at work. Thanks for all the input. To follow up with a little more info.
1. first year hives
2. natural comb
3. double deeps
4. Old World Carnies Ceder Glenn
5. Strongest of 10 hives had drones thru Thanksgiving and the greatest mite drop.

Thanks Again


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Bees could Not survive our interference on the US habitat... we brought the mites, beetles, etc... 

But they can and they do survive. You keep saying this, but it is still not true. I find feral bees all the time and mine are surviving even though I provide nothing against any of those issues you listed. Other than four walls and trying to keep them from swarming so I can get a honey crop, I don't treat them for any of those issues and they are surviving and in fact thriving.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Have you NEVER managed your bees in any way at all? Ever find foul brood, chalk brood, mice, beetles, moisture, anything that you Did something about? Do your bees show vsh behavior? Do you selctively breed your bees from the best survivors and thrivers? The swarms that you find, are they from bees that have eluded mites, beetles, snow and people for the past 20 years, or are they from managed stock that came out of other hives? All of these are practices that are not an option for bees in the "wild"... There is nothing wrong with caring for your bees... that is why they allow us to "keep" them... truly un-managed bees were indeed killed off by mites years ago... sure a very small portion of them was able to adapt and/or had lineage of vsh traits already, but what people today mainly call "feral" is simply a swarm...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

When varroa mites first showed up in my country, (eleven years ago), the wild hives disappeared en masse.


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## PDG honey (Jul 31, 2010)

I have a friend thats a natural beekeeper in Jackson, Ms. While visiting he showed me his so called feral bees he caught in some guys shop. I laughed when I saw them they were 3 banded Italians. He was a little upset with me, but got over it when I traded him a German black bee gueen. Its what most around here call feral. 
What I've seen in the wild and in natural beekeeper's hives is more drone comb. The more drone comb you have the more mites you are going to have. We always use foundation to control somewhat how many drones the hive will produce. We clean out and install foundation during the winter on all damaged wax, because the bees will always repair it with drone comb. I've never had a problem with mites but helped other bekeepers treat their hives for mites.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

A'sPOPPY said:


> 5. Strongest of 10 hives had drones thru Thanksgiving and the greatest mite drop.


And, in my opinion, will likely be the first to collapse.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Have you NEVER managed your bees in any way at all?

I have managed and not managed bees for 36 years. Sure I have managed them. And since Varroa arrived, it usually did not work well. 

> Ever find foul brood

Never.

> chalk brood

Occasionally with a spring cold snap.

> mice

Until I went to top entrances, yes.

> beetles

Never a problem.

> moisture

Before I went to top entrances.

> anything that you Did something about?

Out of desperation after losing them to Varroa I tried Apistan. After losing them even with Apistan, I went to natural comb. After the skunks were taking a toll I went to top entrances.

> Do your bees show vsh behavior? Do you selctively breed your bees from the best survivors and thrivers?

I started breeding bees after they started surviving on natural comb. But not with any great losses at that point. I didn't breed them to survive the Varroa, that took care of itself with the natural comb, I did breed them to survive Nebraska winters better.

> The swarms that you find, are they from bees that have eluded mites, beetles, snow and people for the past 20 years, or are they from managed stock that came out of other hives? 

Judging by what I see from natural sized bees and the fact that the first escaped bees don't build down to natural size on the first regression, I'd say some are recent escapees (the large ones) and some are long term survivors (the small ones) but they have all not been treated since and I'm too busy to collect swarms lately.

>All of these are practices that are not an option for bees in the "wild"...

The only practice I have that is not their option in the wild is the top entrance and most of that they resolve by being too high for the mice and skunks.

> There is nothing wrong with caring for your bees... that is why they allow us to "keep" them...

I think the bees would think that's a bit of an exaggeration...

> truly un-managed bees were indeed killed off by mites years ago...

Still not true no matter how many times you repeat it.

> sure a very small portion of them was able to adapt and/or had lineage of vsh traits already, but what people today mainly call "feral" is simply a swarm... 

I find them often that have survived some time in their current location. But you are free to believe what you like. I am not the only one finding a lot of feral bees surviving.

The condition of my untreated hives:
http://bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

rrussell6870 said:


> And No, the "kept" bee genetics are not "bred out" or "diluted" through time when a swarm leaves a hive body.... the colony simply breeds back to whatever colonies are in the area (which are "kept bees")... there are no genetic differences in bees that live in a hive body, wall, tree trunk, or tree limb...


The colonies that are in the area are MINE as well! It's a bit presumptuous isn't it to assume everyone is buying queens every year? Beekeepers do requeen using their own stock. Joe (naturebee) wrote this a few years back:

***********
I don’t believe the ‘number of drones' as the only factor to be considered in the small cell sphere of influence. Nor do I believe that total domination or isolation is absolutely necessary to succeed with small cell. So far it has been assumed that the number of drones rather than their individual mating success was most significant for colony male success (Baudry et al., 1998), but this belief is being disproved by recent research. IMO, there are actually 2 spheres of influence in varying degree large and small, each wanting to stay separate. In a citation by J. Coelho and O. Taylor, Jr, it was found that drones tended to mate assortatively to a high degree (larger drones mated with large queens and smaller drones mated with small queens). The drone's first two pairs of legs grasp the queens abdomen dorsally, while the last pair of legs grasp it laterally and ventrally (Gary and Marston, 1971). Large drones may have difficulty grasping the smaller queens properly in order to copulate successfully, or they may not have received the proper tactile stimuli for copulation to be elicited. ‘Size matching’ could occur through cues for mounting position. If drones use alignment cues from the anterior portion of the queen, small drones could be too far forward on the queen abdomen and the large drones too far back for copulation to be completed. No matter what proximate factors account for assortative mating by drones, this mating pattern could have powerful ecological and evolutionary consequences. (J. Coelho and O. Taylor, Jr,) 

IMO, isolation or abundant drone population is not necessary to achieve a dominating small cell sphere of influence. In a study by scientists in Germany, it was determined that Drones of a ‘fit’ colony, such as colonies not ill from contaminate usage and that of healthy feral and small cell contaminate free populations (T+T Consultants and science publicists), not only had a higher probability to mate with a queen but also the number of offspring sired in the mated queen was higher than that of its competitors, as the overall male fitness of a colony is the product of its mating success. The drone of ‘fit’ colonies out-competed males from other colonies in mating, but also were more successful in post-mating competition. The fit colonies produced drones with a higher reproductive success than those of the other, less successful colonies. (F. Kraus, P. Neumann, H. Scharpenberg, J. Van Praagh, R. Moritz)
***********


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## pcelar (Oct 5, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> >Bees could Not survive our interference on the US habitat... we brought the mites, beetles, etc...
> 
> But they can and they do survive. You keep saying this, but it is still not true. I find feral bees all the time and mine are surviving even though I provide nothing against any of those issues you listed. Other than four walls and trying to keep them from swarming so I can get a honey crop, I don't treat them for any of those issues and they are surviving and in fact thriving.


:applause:


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> Judging by what I see from natural sized bees and the fact that the first escaped bees don't build down to natural size on the first regression, I'd say some are recent escapees (the large ones) and some are long term survivors (the small ones).


Michael,

what do you mean by 'first regression'? First brood cycle:scratch:

I have been catching swarms and raising them on HSC until I see a good brood pattern established, at which point I have considered the bees successfully 'regressed' (or already small cell) and have been switching them over to foundationless a frame at a time as the hive expands. Is there more to it than that? The worker comb has been getting drawn out as small cell - the only problem I have had is that they have drawn so much drone comb in the foundationless...

You make it sound like you have sometimes had to go though several rounds of regression, and I am curious what you mean by that.



-fafrd


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

MB,

So you truly believe that the wild bees in the US were unaffected by mites simply because they made their own comb? Why then has this principle not been shown in other countries? Where did the mass numbers of feral colonies disappear to? We have many many hives that have drawn their own comb, have since the beginning... I did not note any major differences when mites arrived... We also have many many colonies that were "True" feral hives from pre-mite days... the AMM lineages were what we credit for their quick adaptation... (over the course of 10 years 31 of 400 survived mites... All on natural comb and never fed... and we do not use antibiotics or pollen paties of any kind either).

I just dont see how you come to these conclusions... I respect your thoughts and hope you dont take offense to this discussion... I am simply trying to see your side of the coin... Thanks.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well I've never bought into small cell simply because I've seen so many wild hives die of mites, and I've also, when asked to, attempted to rescue wild hives that have sometimes been so far gone with mites that they were not even saveable.

So that's what's shaped my opinion.

However, I guess a small cell guy would explain that by saying these hives might only be first regression.

Also, there are small cell guys who don't treat. But there are large cell guys who don't treat. So not treating, in itself, is not proof of any one factor.

So - I'm going to cut to the chase and do a natural cell hive myself. But I want advice. -

I want to get to final regression as fast as I can. So how to do that? I'm understanding I'll need one generation raised on first regression comb, then these bees will build final regression comb, is that correct?

My choice of bees is italian, or carniolan. What's the best choice for this experiment?


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

FaFRD,

I think the reason you are getting lots of drone comb in your foundation-less after using HSC is that in the HSC they are limited to 1 cell size mostly. You gave them open space to fill and they said "OH thank you we've been looking for somewhere to make drones" Move it over to the edge, in the future they will use it when they need drones and when not they will fill it with honey. If you remove it completely from the hive they will simply make another. On the regression issue, I believe Mike is talking about a 5.4 bee on SC foundation or foundationless. The first new generation will make like 5.1 cells and then the next generation when give a chance to make new comb for brood will make closer to 4.9. Everything of course depends on what the bees want at the time and I believe latitude (distance from equator) makes a difference in ultimate cell size.

Rod


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

rweakley said:


> FaFRD,
> 
> On the regression issue, I believe Mike is talking about a 5.4 bee on SC foundation or foundationless. The first new generation will make like 5.1 cells and then the next generation when give a chance to make new comb for brood will make closer to 4.9.
> 
> Rod


Thanks Rod. So by this, you mean that you need to wait for total of two complete brood cycles (42 days)?

Since I am getting brood out of the HSC, I assumed that those new nurse bees are fully regressed, and the foundationless comb they draw certainly does appear to be small cell. Am I missing something here?

-fafrd


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Nothing to really miss. You are on HSC so yes the bees that come out of there should basically be down to small cell size. Regression is when you are dealing with foundation or foundationless when the bees have the ability to change cell size. on HSC they don't have a choice it's full drawn comb. Which is also why when you put an empty frame in you get a comb of DRONES. They couldn't make as many as they wanted in the nooks and crannies as they wanted to with HSC so when you gave them that big open inviting space they said SWEEET it's DRONE time.

Rod


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks. So nurse bees emerging from HSC can be considered fully regressed, and I should just wat until all of my nurse bees have emerged from HSC before allowing any comb to be drawn (about 6 weeks total, right?).

I understand that the bees want to draw drone comb in the foundationless frames because they have no drone comb with all HSC (as is also the case with all worker foundation, right?). Even when there were 4 drone frames within a deep, my foundationless frames kept being drawn as 'half-worker / half-drone' (usually split down the middle). Since I want to use drone traps and drone management as a Varroa management technique, these split frames are really not that useful. I would appreciate tricks anyone else is using to get uniform worker cell size within a foundationless frame.

-fafrd


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_So you truly believe that the wild bees in the US were unaffected by mites simply because they made their own comb? _

I don't think anyone is saying that wild bees were unaffected by mites. You are saying that wild bees were completely wiped out by the mites. Then you turn around and say you had 31 of 400 hives survive. 

You are seriously hurting your reputation when you make such preposterous statements that wild bees were wiped out by the mites, and the only reason there are any wild bees now is because of recent swarms that escaped from managed hives. In many parts of the country, beekeepers stopped keeping managed hives when the mites hit. There were few managed hives to throw off swarms, yet wild bees could still be found in numbers larger than the few managed hives could produce. Until I started keeping bees, I could find more feral hives than managed hives in my area.

I think it was South Africa that didn't treat for mites when they hit. (It might have been Cape bees also.) Initially, they had large losses. Within 10 years, their bees were resistant to mites and their hive numbers were back to where they were before. 

There is a saying - when you are a hammer, the whole world is a nail. To a queen producer, the solution to all problems is breeding better queens. To a demolitions man, there is no problem that cannot be solved with the proper charge of dynamite. In reality, the whole world is not a nail, dynamite is not the answer for everything, and queen breeding is not the solution to all bee problems.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_I would appreciate tricks anyone else is using to get uniform worker cell size within a foundationless frame._

You will find it difficult to get uniform cell sizes, as the bees naturally build cells that are not uniform in size.

It is not difficult to get bees to draw workers cells in foundationless frames. I find it pretty easy. Put a foundationless frame between two frames of brood while the colony is small and in expansion phase. Bees draw few drone cells while they are expanding, but will draw many once the colony is stronger.

Here is a YouTube video I made showing how to get bees to draw worker cells to repair damaged broodcombs. The process is the same for getting bees to draw out entire foundationless frames.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZAK--Ga0mc


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> _So you truly believe that the wild bees in the US were unaffected by mites simply because they made their own comb? _
> 
> I don't think anyone is saying that wild bees were unaffected by mites. You are saying that wild bees were completely wiped out by the mites. Then you turn around and say you had 31 of 400 hives survive.
> 
> ...


Read post #15... I did NOT say that all wild bees were wiped out... But i would not call 90+% wiped out "surviving and thriving". I have also never said that breeding is the solution to all bee issues... when discussing ones reputation, you should at the least quote them correctly... This discussion is about wild bees "surviving and thriving" due to natural comb alone... My reputation is not hurt by any means, and I think most people here read the Entire posts instead of just a few parts of them... I had tens of thousands of hives when mites first arrived... I am in daily contact with entomologists not only across the US, but also the globe... I know full well what wild populations were around before, during, and after mites...


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Post #7 you said the bees were wiped out long ago.

_truly un-managed bees were indeed killed off by mites years ago... sure a very small portion of them was able to adapt and/or had lineage of vsh traits already, but what people today mainly call "feral" is simply a swarm... _

Just to look at post #15 - feral hives commonly display varying levels of VSH. VSH is irrelevant to bees surviving without human intervention/interference. 

I call bees in trees and in walls of abandoned houses feral hives - I can find colonies living in these conditions for years.

_I have also never said that breeding is the solution to all bee issues..._

You most certainly imply that.

_I know full well what wild populations were around before, during, and after mites... _

Please tell me what the wild populations were around before, during, and after mites in my neck of the woods. To keep things legit, please also provide managed populations for the same time periods for comparison.

_My reputation is not hurt by any means,_

Do not be blinded by arrogance. Customers (like me) will think twice about future purchases from you. 

_I am in daily contact with entomologists _

My Aunt married a man with a PhD in entomology - specializing in honeybees. He worked for various colleges as long as I remember. In the 90's, his dream of being a commercial beekeeper came true when he bought a working 1000 hive operation in South Dakota. He even had 3 or 4 of the children as his free labor. Fours years later when he went belly up, it was a 400 hive operation. 

Our state apiary inspector is an entomologist too. Within 5 minutes of listening to them at a presentation, I was completely convinced that they were clueless and incompetent. 

It has been my experience that entomologists may think they know a lot about bees, but they don't seem to know much about beekeeping.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think somebody got out the wrong side of the bed thismorning!:no:


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

This discussion is more educational when it stays civil.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>what do you mean by 'first regression'? First brood cycle

It takes a lot of brood cycles to shrink the size of the cells (cocoons do build up to the point the bees decide the cells are too small) but "first regression" is refering to them building smaller comb. Bees from that comb will build smaller comb etc. but bees generally don't replace comb once they build it. So a swarm from a large cell hive usually has about 5.1mm to 5.2mm cells in the core of the brood nest and always will. A swarm from that swarm will usually be about 4.9mm to 5.0mm in the core of the brood nest and always will. A swarm from that swarm will usually be 4.7mm to 4.9mm in the core of the brood nest and always will. The swarm from the hive would be the first regression. The swarm from that swarm the 2nd regression etc.

>I have been catching swarms and raising them on HSC until I see a good brood pattern established, at which point I have considered the bees successfully 'regressed' (or already small cell) and have been switching them over to foundationless a frame at a time as the hive expands. Is there more to it than that?

HSC is instant regression. You already have 4.9mm drawn comb.

> The worker comb has been getting drawn out as small cell - the only problem I have had is that they have drawn so much drone comb in the foundationless...

Typically they draw 20% drone.

>You make it sound like you have sometimes had to go though several rounds of regression, and I am curious what you mean by that.

Without the HSC, they would.

>MB,
>So you truly believe that the wild bees in the US were unaffected by mites simply because they made their own comb?

I wouldn't say unaffected. They have been affected by many things, including viruses spread by the mites and collapsing commercial hives that they rob out and bring home mites from. Sometimes an inordinate amount of mites. By that I mean that even if the mite reproduction is stable in the natural cell hive, bringing in thousands of mites from crashing hives will take a toll.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#feralbees
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesferal.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#varroa

> Why then has this principle not been shown in other countries? Where did the mass numbers of feral colonies disappear to?

I only know what I observe here.

>I just dont see how you come to these conclusions... I respect your thoughts and hope you dont take offense to this discussion... I am simply trying to see your side of the coin... Thanks. 

My conclusions are from my observations in my location. Certainly others in other locations have made different observations.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Oldtimer... Tell me about it.. good grief! 

It has nothing to do with arrogance... not sure why you decided that bashing me was called for... MB disagreed with something that I said, so we discussed the reasons that we believed the way we believed... thats it...

Read the whole thread... I said that what was called "feral" were wiped out by the mites... 90+% were, to me thats a major "wipe out"... if you had 100 hives this year and next spring only 8 or 9 were left, would you consider it a wipe out? You said that your uncle lost 600 out of 1,000 hives in 4 years, and you considered him "belly up" for that... so I assume that you agree with the terminology...

So then someone said that what was called "Feral" bees were "surving and thriving"... I simply disagree... what was known as "ferel" bees from pre-mite days are not what is surviving and thriving today... and yes vsh traits are passed in both directions... the huge number of managed hives with these traits pass those traits on... not sure about the number of managed colonies with vsh traits vs the number of "wild" hives during the time in which the wild hives developed their traits, but quite sure the number of managed colonies was much much higher...

I do speak a lot about breeding... That is my area of expertise... I could talk about tv repair, but I would just get someone electricuted because I know nothing about that... No I am not implying that breeding is the answer to all bee problems... but I will do my part AS A breeder to address what issues I can...

As far as your opinion of Entomologists goes... Couldnt agree with you more... I myself have only met about 6 of them that I liked... and half of them were family members. lol. I am very much against some of the ideas that USDA ARS come up with about forcing vsh genetics on all american bee keepers... I think they should get out of the labs and into the bee yards and into the industry where real people are trying to make a real living... And I wouldnt step foot in a state assn meeting to be sold some more junk and listen to a guy with 20 hives and 4 years experience tell me about bee keeping... I studied this field because it was what I loved... same with my father, and same with his father... its who we are and we wanted to learn everything that we possibly could about it... Having a doctorate does not mean that we didnt work bees... each of us grew up in bee yards, and spent our entire lives working this commercial operation... 

I will just agree to disagree with you... I am not here to defend myself or my reputation simply because someone disagrees with me... I'm here in an attempt to help others and this sort of thing keeps that from happening... So I am through exchanging with you about it.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >MB,
> >So you truly believe that the wild bees in the US were unaffected by mites simply because they made their own comb?
> 
> I wouldn't say unaffected. They have been affected by many things, including viruses spread by the mites and collapsing commercial hives that they rob out and bring home mites from. Sometimes an inordinate amount of mites. By that I mean that even if the mite reproduction is stable in the natural cell hive, bringing in thousands of mites from crashing hives will take a toll.
> ...


Thank you very much... exactly why I respect your thoughts... open minded, honest, and professional. Thanks MB.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> bees generally don't replace comb once they build it. So a swarm from a large cell hive usually has about 5.1mm to 5.2mm cells in the core of the brood nest and always will. A swarm from that swarm will usually be about 4.9mm to 5.0mm in the core of the brood nest and always will. A swarm from that swarm will usually be 4.7mm to 4.9mm in the core of the brood nest and always will. The swarm from the hive would be the first regression. The swarm from that swarm the 2nd regression etc.


Thanks Michael - this answers my question. 

So if one establishes a swarm directly on drawn small-cell comb (either HSC or drawn PF-120 or drawn foundationless from a hive that is already fully regressed), then it is possible to get them established directly on small cell in a single step, right? 

This is essentially what I have been doing - I wait until I see a couple generations of brood established on already-drawn small cell comb before introducing new foundationless frames to be drawn. This season, I will be sure to include 20% of drawn drone combs at the same time that I introduce new foundationless frames into the center of the brood cluster to see if that helps to get the bees to draw primarily worker comb...

-fafrd


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

rrussell6870 said:


> ... ideas that USDA ARS come up with about forcing vsh genetics on all american bee keepers


What would be wrong with that?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

heaflaw said:


> What would be wrong with that?


It's not so much the idea as it is the method that I am against... Their proposal was to release tens of thousands of pure russian swarms across the nation... This is an attempt to provide drones carrying vsh traits in order to speed up the resistance that our nations bees are developing now... The trouble is that vsh is not the only traits that they will be spreading... There are many undesirable behavioral traits that russians carry, that would be passed along to US bee keeping operations whether they want them or not... 

Our nations bee keepers have been selectively breeding their bees for hundreds of years to better serve our agricultural needs as well as production needs... each US region produces bees that are better suited for its area and needs each year... I believe that vsh traits are necessary, but think that it should be upto the US bee keepers as to How and When those traits should be added... as MB was expressing earlier, our bees AND bee keepers are developing many ways to control VD on their own, without immediate genetic influence from bees of other species... So in time, the same bees that have been selectively bred for the past hundreds of years to become the producers that they are today, will need no treatments or special management to thrive even in the presence of VD... I agree fully... That is the ultimate goal after all, "To have productive bees, without any need of treatment or special management". 

The US is made up of many regions and climates... Russians in florida (also one of the nation top queen production area... think of the impact), would not do as well as Russians in Ohio... 

Again, vsh is a great trait... but not the only trait that these bees carry, and in many ways this type of forced genetic influence would cause more damage to the US bee industry than good... 

Thanks and hope this helps!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So if one establishes a swarm directly on drawn small-cell comb (either HSC or drawn PF-120 or drawn foundationless from a hive that is already fully regressed), then it is possible to get them established directly on small cell in a single step, right?

Yes.

>Their proposal was to release tens of thousands of pure russian swarms across the nation... 

I agree this is not only a bad idea, but an arrogant one. It assumes that what the rest of us have been breeding is not what we should have... if you want to solve the issue of bees that can survive without treatments you have to stop treating, but you don't have to introduce other genetics.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_if you had 100 hives this year and next spring only 8 or 9 were left, would you consider it a wipe out?_

No. I would consider it heavy losses, but not wiped out. I still have the potential and ability to rebuild.

_You said that your uncle lost 600 out of 1,000 hives in 4 years, and you considered him "belly up" for that... so I assume that you agree with the terminology..._

You assume incorrectly. He went belly up for other reasons, such as being unable to meet contracts, poor business management, ppb, incorrectly prioritizing, trying to micromanage hives, etc. Going from 1000 hives down to 400 in 4 years was evidence of him not being in touch with the realities of beekeeping at that scale.

_... what was known as "ferel" bees from pre-mite days are not what is surviving and thriving today..._

You have stated this as a fact, rather than stating this as an opinion. I want to know what you are basing this 'fact' upon. Why do I find strong 'feral' colonies of strains of bees that no one in the area has kept? Why do I find thriving feral hives in areas of the county that have only had a handful of beekeepers in the past 30 years? (and what few beekeepers there were, were not known for buying new stock) Why do I have beekeepers who kept bees 30 and 40 years ago telling me that the feral bees now are looking and acting like the feral bees from 30 and 40 years ago?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Why do people think that the wild hives are somehow a different breed than the managed hives around them? How are these bees supposed to somehow maintain a seperate genetic line? Since it is claimed they do so well and swarm frequently is it realistic to think they do not mate with managed stock?

If a mistruth is repeated often enough, it becomes "truth". Hence we have a whole bunch of people that pounce on any wild swarm they find, thinking it is a superior genetic line. They are not. Sorry Countryboy, but I just want to inject some reality.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Why do people think that the wild hives are somehow a different breed than the managed hives around them?_

When the managed hives look like Italian workers, and you find wild hives that are solid black, or black with gray stripes...
And you can't find beekeepers in the area who have been managing bees that looked like this for many years...
And the bee inspectors for the past 30+ some years have not been seeing bees like this since pre-mite days... 
But people in the area who have been doing removals for close to 30 years say they find these black bees occasionally when they were doing removals...

My experience has been that these black bees can be foul-tempered sometimes. Folks who kept bees 30 and 40 years ago would catch swarms that looked like these, and they say these have similar temperament to the wild bees from pre-mite days.

Sometimes 2+2 really does equal 4. That is the reality of the situation.

Don't get me wrong. Not all wild hives are solid black, or black with gray stripes. Some look like Italians. Some may very well be recent swarms from managed hives. But not all of them.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> But people in the area who have been doing removals for close to 30 years say they find these black bees occasionally when they were doing removals...


the key word here would be OCCASIONALLY. And I would not disagree with that. The black bees you mention are likely AMM, a breed I used to work with, not by choice, 30 to 40 years ago, in pre mite times. They have largely been eliminated since varroa arrived as varroa have a greater effect on their reproduction, but unmanaged hives will still sometimes regress to them. That's in my country, however the reading I've done indicates it's the same in your country.




Countryboy said:


> Sometimes 2+2 really does equal 4.


Glad we're on the same page.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

The black bees that you are referring to are AMM genetics... these were brought to the US hundreds of years ago and are without a doubt some of the strongest and most adaptive bees that I have ever worked with... They have bred into managed stock since their arrival here and bee keepers have been trying to select away from them by selecting for lighter colors and more gentle nature since the beginning... Pre-mite US feral strains were mainly AMM and 3 banded Italian crosses that were created from the blending of feral colonies and managed hives... 

Oldtimer is right... feral genetics change with the geographic location due to the number of managed hives kept in each particular area breeding into the feral colonies... the reason that the majority of feral colonies will have more black than yellow is simply natural selection... feral colonies with more AMM traits will survive harsher winters and robbers much better than those with base Italian or carnica traits... Thus the feral hives that are overly influenced by genetics of managed hives that boast more gentle genetics will not make it to the next breeding cycle to spread their genetics further... leaving the black bee genetics more abundant within their areas... I believe that the feral bees of NZ were mainly of AMM genetics as they out survived the Italian and Carnica genetics in the wild there as well... As was pointed out, these Black ferals disapeared from there with the arrival of VD... It is my belief that the AMM had been blending its way into the managed colonies there, just like they have here, yet as the mites destroyed the wild colonies, in the future swarms will leave the managed hives and begin this process of natural selection once again, and the black bees will make a comeback, just as they are doing here...

This is not something that has only happened in the US... It has happened everywhere... when VD is introduced to honey bee strains that have not been exposed to them, the initial result is Extreme colony losses... through time, the bees begin to find ways to keep mite populations in check (resistances), such as vsh, increased swarming to break brood cycles, etc... this can be a rather quick transition as it was in AMM strains, or it can take a very long time as it has for lighter italian strains...

Russians are the result of over 100 years of exposure to VD... as of now they possess the highest levels of resistance to VD... but this level of resistance also takes a toll on their usability in commercial markets... 

Here is a quote from Debbie Delaney that I found a few minutes ago...

"""Feral honey bee (Apis mellifera) populations once flourished in North America. Upon the arrival and establishment of a parasitic brood mite, Varroa destructor, feral honey bee populations were largely decimated. Research has shown that the genetic composition of feral honey bee populations in North America were different than managed commercial honey bee populations, containing genetic remnants from subspecies imported during the early colonization of North America. While it has been implied that these once thriving feral populations served as a genetic reservoir of diversity for managed honey bee populations in the United States, no empirical evidence is available to support this claim, to date. 

Due to the growing problems facing honey bees-such as Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD), miticide resistance, and other pathogens-it is important to preserve genetic variation within U.S. honey bee populations. Managed colonies nationwide have dropped from 3.27 million to 2.59 million since 1986 (21%). In North Carolina alone, we have gone from 180,000 to 100,000 in two decades (44%). Feral colonies have experienced a 90 to 95 % loss over the past two decades, however, research and anecdotal evidence suggest that the feral population may be recovering. This leads to the question of the status of feral populations. What is the genetic composition of this newly re-emerging non-managed population? Does the unique genetic identity that characterized feral populations from over a decade ago still remain, or is this new population simply composed of swarms from managed honey bee populations?""""

It takes quite a while to bounce back from a 90+% loss... in time feral strains will grow darker and darker just as they once were due to natural selection and the resilience of AMM genetics... the reason that more wild colonies are lighter today and are making a faster comeback is simply because more managed colony swarms are able to survive VD due to the vsh traits that they have developed and that were bred into them.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Countryboy;604924When the managed hives look like Italian workers said:


> There are more people breeding pure strain AMM, Caucasian, and Russian than you may imagine... We alone sold over 5,000 pure AMM queens to US breeders and bee keepers last season... 4,200 pure Caucasians, and well over 20,000 hybrids of these strains... We provide the US around 80,000 queens per year, so nearly 30,000 being of dark bees gives you an idea of the demand... there are also huge numbers of pure russian breeders as well as multiple strains of Carnica... From my understanding, bees in the US have been leaning towards the darker strains at a very high rate.
> 
> Hope this helps.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

I read somewhere that close to 97% of untreated bees in the US were killed by varroa when it first arrived. But, that means that 3% were survivors of varroa. They must have multiplied and bred with each other and with bees kept by beekeepers. The ones that bred with mostly treated bees that had no defense against varroa were not able to survive. But those that bred with either other survivors from "the wild" or with bees that beekeepers have kept that had a defense against varroa (VSH or otherwise), were able to survive.

That is what I define as feral survivors. It matters not at all what percentage of the drones that mated with the queen were AMM vs Italian vs Russian vs Carniolian, or whether those drones were from a colony in a beehive or in a tree. What matters is that they can survive varroa on their own.

That is what M Bush and others try to get to incorporate into their stock and what they see as being so valuable to beekeeping's future.

That's my take on it. Tell me where I'm wrong.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I think you have the idea... I referred to the exact lineages only because they have some distinction, thus one can tell with closer inspection what the surviving colony is made up of, which can lead to answer the most important question, how did it survive...

When I think of "Feral", I think of a certain strain of bee that was very well established in pre-mite days... they had their own characteristics, and were very simular across the nation... with the exception for colonies around large apiaries...

One more thing to consider is the fact that drones are heavily effected in mite infested colonies... so many colonies that are filled with mites are far less likely to pass on their genetics whether they survive or not until the mite population is back under control... late 90s-mid 2005, this is what feral colonies and managed colonies alike were having to contend with.

The majorly controversial debate is whether or not all bees, treated or not, are developing resistances... treated colonies are still exposed to mites, and even though it is much slower, they are building resistances as well, and are producing more drones and thus spreading their genetics more... I'm not saying that treatment is better by any means, just saying that one way or another, VD will be under control in time... SHB will be the next big threat... and without getting a handle on them, we could lose a large portion of our varroa resistant bees, and thus slow down the developement of our own stock.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

I have a quick question that I hope is not too far off topic.

Briefly, I keep around 15 to 20 hives. I haven't treated for about 5 years and they are doing well. Several people want to buy some nucs from me this spring. I thought about buying 2 hives from someone a few counties away who also hasn't treated in several years to provide genetic diversity. I will set up those and maybe one of my two consistently best hives a mile away and put in drone comb to provide the mating drones.

Does that sound like a good plan for my small operation? Should I treat the drone colonies with apistan to be sure the drones are not unhealty from what mites there are in the hives?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

As to the distance between your mating nucs and your drone colonies, check the Queen Breeding forum, thread titled "Mating Nucs" post #14... In that post is a great link that BeekUk provided...

On the treatment of drone colonies... I would let that depend on several aspects...
1. How many queens do you need mated? If there are a lot, and you only have a few colonies to provide drones from.... It may be helpful to insure properly mated queens for your customers...

2. If your mite levels are high... and again this goes back to number one... how many drones will you need... 

I would keep a close eye on mite levels... then make a judgement call when the time comes... Your bees are survivors.... it would be great to have there genetics spread... but if there arent enough healthy drones to spread them, it doesnt do anyone any good... follow your gut, and you wont go wrong...


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks for your advice.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

You are very welcome... good luck!


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## no1cowboy (May 18, 2007)

If you are not treating your bees now and have healthy hives, why would you start now?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

VD can seriously cripple drones, even if the colony itself is healthy... mite populations must be measured and a judgement call would have to be made as to whether or not to consider treatment to enable healthy drone production from such a colony in order to spread its survivor genetics on to the queens that are being mated. In this case the colony itself is selected for survivor genetics, but the colony itself is simply being used to produce drones with these traits... thus treatment is considered only as a means to allow for more healthy drones.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Untreated bees that are surviving are always going to be different genetically than propped up bees. The ones that can't cut it genetically are dead...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

So it's not about small cells?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

All strains of bees develop resistance to VD over time of being exposed to them... the only ones that are dead are the ones that were not given a chance to adapt to the threat that we brought here from other countries... if it were true that only certain types of bees carried these traits and all others were too weak to develop these traits, then the world would quickly be repopulated by only the certain strain of bees that originally carried this trait... but that is a different topic altogether... in this case someone is wanting to breed queens with drones from survivor colonies... they are concerned about the amount of healthy drones that the survivor colonies can produce vs the number of queens that they are trying to mate...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So it's not about small cells? 

Everything is about everything.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmorethan.htm

But as far as Varroa, I've found it to be mostly about cell size.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm

But many things put pressure on feral bees. All the things bees get treated for by beekeepers are there with not other protection than genetics.

The most common killer of bees is bad decisions. Bees have to predict the future and raise enough bees before a flow to take advantage of the flow, and not raise too many too early or they starve. Being adapted to your climate is, in my opinion, the primary survival "skill" they need to inherit genetically. But then there is Nosema, tracheal mites, brood diseases etc.


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