# Propolis envelope techniques?



## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

personally I wouldn't want it. they glue the edges which is all that is needed. the inside of the box is weather tight so it will only make a mess.


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## bjamesvw (Apr 17, 2014)

This spring I used a handheld wallpaper removal tool on the insides of my nuc boxes and supers. They did a great job of roughing up the wood but I'm not sure if it will make a difference. The tool was similar to this one:
http://www.amazon.com/RUST-OLEUM-02...=1461937622&sr=8-3&keywords=wallpaper+remover


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Do we know they won't propolize the smooth surfaces vs rough surfaces? Do we know that it's better for the surfaces to be propolized? 

FWIW, when we opened the stud cavities to cut out my bees (cavities had been occupied continuously by bees for two decades or more) the bees had not coated the rough interior surfaces. These barns were built just after the Civil War and the backs of the siding and the interior cladding (these were the surfaces of the stud cavities' vertical walls, in addition to the rough-cut studs themselves) none of which could be described as smooth, since they were not milled with modern equipment, yet they were not propolized.

Bees had twenty years to do that, and far rougher surfaces than anything you might find today to work with. Yet, they didn't choose to do so. 

There was plenty of propolis around in other areas (outside the entrance, closing cracks, etc.), just not on the walls.

Enj.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

enjambres said:


> Do we know they won't propolize the smooth surfaces vs rough surfaces? Do we know that it's better for the surfaces to be propolized?


According to Renata Borba's research, yes it's better if the surfaces are propolized in managed hives.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Marcin said:


> According to Renata Borba's research, yes it's better if the surfaces are propolized in managed hives.


then why don't they do it on their own?


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## Sunny (Apr 18, 2015)

kaizen said:


> then why don't they do it on their own?


Good question! They answer I understood was that they just don't. No one has apparently looked into that yet and figured out the reason why. Figure it out and you might get published!

The volatiles released from propolis have antimicrobial properties that help boost bee immune systems. Research has proven that when bees are suffering from illness they will try to procure tree resins to self medicate. Hives that are lined with propolis have been shown to have overall better health than hives that do not have the envelope.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

The smooth inside surfaces of my boxes is coated with a thin propolis like substance. I didn't put it there, nor did I rough them up
to cause the bees to deposit it.
The older the box the more coating there is. Orangey yellowish red in color and somewhat eggshell like in sheen. 
No, It's not wax, doesn't have the same properties.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

I see a thin film on every surface in my hives. Its not heavy, but its everywhere. Even new wood inside gets a yellow glow after a few months.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Sunny said:


> Good question! They answer I understood was that they just don't. No one has apparently looked into that yet and figured out the reason why. Figure it out and you might get published!
> 
> The volatiles released from propolis have antimicrobial properties that help boost bee immune systems. Research has proven that when bees are suffering from illness they will try to procure tree resins to self medicate. Hives that are lined with propolis have been shown to have overall better health than hives that do not have the envelope.


Is that research published someplace?


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## Sunny (Apr 18, 2015)

kaizen said:


> Is that research published someplace?


I can't access the files on my phone, but here is a link to the current research topics from that specific lab and a listing of publications.

https://www.entomology.umn.edu/faculty-staff/marla-spivak


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## Sunny (Apr 18, 2015)

bjamesvw said:


> This spring I used a handheld wallpaper removal tool on the insides of my nuc boxes and supers. They did a great job of roughing up the wood but I'm not sure if it will make a difference. The tool was similar to this one:
> http://www.amazon.com/RUST-OLEUM-02...=1461937622&sr=8-3&keywords=wallpaper+remover



Thanks for the suggestion!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

kaizen said:


> then why don't they do it on their own?


They do as your boxes get older and they have good propolis sources for them to collect from. Some of my boxes have propolis dripping out holes on the outside.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

There was a speaker at the Nov CSBA that spoke about this topic and research regarding increased colony health. I failed to record the name in my notes and don't have a source. EDIT: Yes it was Marla Spivak

Kaizen's question was brought up as to why bees don't do it, and the speaker's reply was over the decades beekeepers have bred for reduced propolis if given a choice. 

(i.e. Bee A makes a lot of propolis and lot of honey, Bee B makes little propolis and lot of honey; keep Bee B)


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

I suppose for honey producers its probably not desirable. I don't particularly care. if there was a lot of it i'd probably sell it. My hives have always been light on sealing up their hives. They don't make propolis like in the above picture. I guess my questions above were leading towards us again manipulating the bees by painting on prop lysis? vs them doing what they have done for milenia. Thanks for the links i'll have to take a look at her results.


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## Sunny (Apr 18, 2015)

StingerMcStung said:


> There was a speaker at the Nov CSBA that spoke about this topic and research regarding increased colony health. I failed to record the name in my notes and don't have a source. EDIT: Yes it was Marla Spivak
> 
> Kaizen's question was brought up as to why bees don't do it, and the speaker's reply was over the decades beekeepers have bred for reduced propolis if given a choice.
> 
> (i.e. Bee A makes a lot of propolis and lot of honey, Bee B makes little propolis and lot of honey; keep Bee B)


I looked around a bit and that seems to be the consensus. It's for that very reason that we use some strains over others. For instance, I remember reading that many people weren't too fond the Caucasian Bee, and I was browsing through some images I had saved and stumbled across this again. 

Kaizen, while I try to let them just go about their business, it seems we have manipulated their behavior enough to get them to reduce doing something that is beneficial to them. So in this case, I like to think of it as less of a manipulation, and more of a corrective action in recompense to our "human knows best" attitude. 

Oh, I also found a more direct link to the pdfs of those publications. 
http://www.beelab.umn.edu/honey-bees/research/publications


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## Sunny (Apr 18, 2015)

Accidental duplicate. How can you delete posts on here?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

This depends on the type of bees you keep.
My Italians don't do that. However, they do try to
bridge the frames with more propolis during the Spring time than
the winter time. I wouldn't worry much about the sides of the hive box as
they know what is good for them. I trust my bees that much!


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Propolis is very important part of bees housekeeping. They normally use it to patch the "imperfections" (in bees opinion), but it is not a "wall paint" to cover entire beehive's interior. After year or so, my boxes covered inside with material similar to some natural "resin", but I do not think it is 100% propolis. It can be some sort of propolis derivative ... Another issue with propolis is that its quality (beneficial) depends from the the source - sometime bees are using asphalt if there is nothing else around. I do not think that such "propolis" is really beneficial to the bees, but it can function as a patch. It is my understanding that good propolis may be obtained only in northern regions.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>then why don't they do it on their own?

200 years of selective breeding to not make propolis. The word itself is a pretty good clue. It means "before the city". The "city of bees" would reduce their entrance with mounds of propolis before we bred it out of them.


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## jakec (May 26, 2015)

I did a cutout last year that reduced their entrance down to a 1" hole after I hived them. I left the entrance wide open on a 10 frame deep and faced them north with no windbreak not knowing any better. not sure if that's why they did it but made sense to me.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> ... The "city of bees" would reduce their entrance with mounds of propolis ...


 My original feral bees live in the boxes without roof. So, bees made a perfect roof from leaves, wax and propolis. It was very strong and beautiful "roof." On different occasion (same bees), when I tried to give bees a second (top) entrance - it was covered completely by bees day-night for a week... when bees left, there was no top entrance, everything was sealed by wax and propolis. I noticed, that nowadays, my bees are much less interested in propolising.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I did a cutout last year that reduced their entrance down to a 1" hole after I hived them.

A good indicator of feral genetics.


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## Sunny (Apr 18, 2015)

cerezha said:


> Propolis is very important part of bees housekeeping. They normally use it to patch the "imperfections" (in bees opinion), but it is not a "wall paint" to cover entire beehive's interior. After year or so, my boxes covered inside with material similar to some natural "resin", but I do not think it is 100% propolis. It can be some sort of propolis derivative ... Another issue with propolis is that its quality (beneficial) depends from the the source - sometime bees are using asphalt if there is nothing else around. I do not think that such "propolis" is really beneficial to the bees, but it can function as a patch. It is my understanding that good propolis may be obtained only in northern regions.


Do you have any sources for this information? I have never heard of bees using asphalt, but that could be an interesting read. My bees have access to a wide variety of trees and plants, so in theory their propolis should be beneficial to them.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

I learned about asphalt on beesource (have no idea where). As for propolis quality - I am Russian and in Russia we use it to treat many health problems. Therefore, the "medicinal" quality of propolis is very important. In US I noticed that substance called "propolis" is anything but real propolis ... I had no explanation to this until again, have read on beesource that proper propolis (good for people) can be obtained only from northern regions of US. In Russia, "proper propolis" is derivative of resin from buds of poplar just before blooming. It has distinctive fresh smell and softer than wax. I am not aware of other trees suitable for collecting propolis. My bees in SoCal collect sap from pine tree, but it does not look/smell "real propolis."


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

According to several sources bees USUALLY use the resin from poplar buds for propolis. Of course they will resort to anything they can get if they have to. Around here that resin usually comes form cottonwood trees and is somewhere between brown to dull green. But there are also Lombardy poplars. Some parts of the U.S. it will be aspen trees or tulip poplar trees that they will be working.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

My area has lots of introduced trees and we see several distinct colors and types of propolis. I have seen veins of this red propolis in split Eucalyptus logs.


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