# 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, 4, 5:1, 6:1, 7:1, more?



## sylus p (Mar 16, 2008)

anyone know of scientific studies showing that 1:1 syrup truly has a more stimulating effect than say, 3:1? 

or to the true veterans, can you verify that 1:1 stimulates better colony growth and/or health in comparison to a thicker syrup over time?

along ways away from my trusty copy of the hive and the honeybee out here in a cali motel.... 

thanks.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Beekeepers specify syrup ratios with the sugar listed first, as in 2:1 which is 2 parts sugar to 1 part water. You can make 1:2, or 1:1, or 2:1, but you really can't make 3:1 (or higher concentrations) as the sugar will not stay in solution.


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## sylus p (Mar 16, 2008)

yes, I am asking about _syrup _to water ratios, thanks for helping me clarify

as in, 2 parts syrup to 1 part water, we mix a lot of syrup and water 

especially when we are buying _syrup _by the truckload


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Do you mean you are asking about mixing HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) with water? (Diluting HFCS)


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sylus p said:


> can you verify that 1:1 stimulates better colony growth and/or health in comparison to a thicker syrup over time?


I can't. Except for cell builders, I always feed 2:1, and never feed 1:1 in the spring to stimulate brood rearing. As long as they have ample feed in the hive, my spring flows stimulate brood rearing just fine. If the bees need feed, give them 2:1. Why feed something that's half water?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> I can't. Except for cell builders, I always feed 2:1, and never feed 1:1 in the spring to stimulate brood rearing. As long as they have ample feed in the hive, my spring flows stimulate brood rearing just fine. If the bees need feed, give them 2:1. Why feed something that's half water?


I feed 1:1 in the spring because I want it used up before any nectar flow. I do not want sugar stored at such a late date, and don't want any sugar to end up in my honey.

Why feed something that's half water? why not?


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I find .975309843 - .93935092340932 to be the best ratio


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Brad Bee said:


> I find .975309843 - .93935092340932 to be the best ratio


There is a large difference in the concentration of sugars from one natural nectar source to another. Making sugar syrup is not rocket surgery.

EDIT: I mean to edit my smart aleck post not quote it.


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

Does anyone know the moisture content of prosweet77 compared to hfcs55 compared to dry sugar? If feeding prosweet77 at 4:1 still stimulates as well as feeding it 1:1, that would mean fewer trips to feed the same amount. If 2:1 adds weight but doesn't stimulate then it would be a waste to feed that instead of 1:1 this time of year? I have heard of people feeding prosweet77 as thick as they can pump it, and i have heard of people feeding less than 1:1 for stimulation. Does thicker syrup still stimulate the queen?


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## sylus p (Mar 16, 2008)

I'm asking because we are feeding nucs in order to build them up. they are in large yards so they aren't likely to get enough carbs without our intervention. these are California locations. 

so unless there is some advantage to feeding 1:1 in terms of better growth it follows that we get more bang for the buck (labor and fuel savings) by just feeding 2:1 half as often.

Justin boiled it down pretty well when he said, "does thicker syrup still stimulate the queen?" i think the answer is yes, so long as she has room to lay, is healthy, etc. am i wrong? what are we missing? :lookout:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If the syrup is too thick, will the hives plug up prematurely? I would imagine that too thin a syrup is a waste of your time, but too thick is a waste of sugar. Time to do some observations and calculations. Calculus anyone?

Crazy Roland


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

clyderoad said:


> Why feed something that's half water? why not?


I feed my bees when they need feed, and not because I'm trying to force them into brood production. So, why give them feed that's half water that they have to get rid of.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I've never understood thin syrup feeding but up here we are driven by seasons and nothing can escape it. 
I fed thin syrup at one time. Gotta watch fermentation


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## rmax51 (Feb 4, 2013)

Well nectar is 90% water right? I thought diluting HFCS was to mimic a natural nectar flow.


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

Randy Oliver did a study on this very topic, I don't remember the results. Rader, maybe you can find, it is on his website. I'll look for it also.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

A real _horse race_! 

Here is the Randy Oliver page on comb building with light vs heavy syrup that Matt mentions above:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/light-or-heavy-syrup-for-drawing-foundation/

Randy did 3 different runs, 'heavy' syrup was ahead in run #1, 'light' syrup was the winner in #2, and light was marginally ahead in #3. But here is Randy's bottom line ...


> Combined results: overall, there was no significant difference in comb drawing between the two concentrations of syrup in the three replicates (Fig. 6). Nor did it seem to make much difference in the total weight gain of the supers.
> 
> This result is similar to that found by Whitcomb [1], who found that colonies drew roughly the same amount of comb, regardless of the degree of dilution of the feed.
> 
> ...


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> I feed my bees when they need feed, and not because I'm trying to force them into brood production. So, why give them feed that's half water that they have to get rid of.


I'm not at all certain the water is gotten rid of. I believe much if not all is used during spring buildup.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I could never see any difference in what the bees do with it or how they respond to it. Thicker syrup lasts longer without spoiling so quickly. Thicker syrup is less work for the bees. Thicker syrup is less syrup for me to haul to the yard for the same amount of benefit. If I could get 2:1 to dissolve, I would do that. Since my hard water doesn't want to soak up that much sugar, I do 5:3 for all purposes at all times in the year that I might feed. But I don't feed unless I can see a very good reason to. Like getting them up to winter weight or keeping them from starving. I don't feed if there is nectar coming in. 

As far as the other proportions you list, pretty much nothing over 2:1 will dissolve even in distilled water...


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> A real _horse race_!
> 
> Here is the Randy Oliver page on comb building with light vs heavy syrup that Matt mentions above:
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/light-or-heavy-syrup-for-drawing-foundation/
> ...


Very interesting. Last summer I made 10 splits around the first of June. All were started with two frames of capped brood and adhereing bees and an extra shake of bees. I put mated queens in with them. I added 2 frames of double waxed Acorn foundation to each nuc. The bees were able to forage enough pollen during June to build up to about 4 frames of brood by fall. Our nectar flow was over when I made the splits. We were in a severe drought and moved into the "exceptional" category by mid July. I had to feed those splits all summer. I also wanted them to draw comb. I read on beesource that bees would draw comb while being fed 1:2, and yes I mean that as written, one part sugar, to 2 parts water. I fed them one gallon of that per week. They would have taken 2 but I only fed one. All those splits ended the summer in 5 over 5 nucs, with 7 frames of comb that they drew after splitting. I wish I had kept records, but I don't think I had 1.2 pounds of sugar per frame of drawn comb.

I also wish I had known when I started, how easy and cost effective it was to get bees to draw comb by feeding, even just once a week. I would have a barn full of drawn comb by now, had I known that when I started. I also give credit for some of that to the double waxed Acorn foundation. I tested it against wax foundation last spring and bees drew it out faster than they did wax. At any rate, new beekeepers can *easily build their comb reserve for their second year by feeding at the appropriate time. *It's a good idea to be able to recognize swarm preparations by a hive, before a beekeeper starts putting sugar syrup on the bees. You can feed for comb, or you can feed to swarm if it's not done correctly.

It also helps a great deal if the bees are making wax prior to feeding. IMO it takes less syrup to keep bees drawing comb with than it does to get them started. That is purely anecdotal evidence on my part.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Some folks want to stimulate a hive without spending much money so feed a very thin mix. If the bees have enough feed and don't need more this is fine, stimulation achieved.

But from this practise the idea has arisen that thin syrup is for stimulating, thick syrup is for feeding. In fact all syrup feeding will stimulate a hive.


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## sylus p (Mar 16, 2008)

Michael Bush said:


> As far as the other proportions you list, pretty much nothing over 2:1 will dissolve even in distilled water...


got it 
it was a play on the nursery rhyme
one potato two potato three potato four five potato six potato seven potato more
:thumbsup:


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## sylus p (Mar 16, 2008)

Oldtimer said:


> Some folks want to stimulate a hive without spending much money so feed a very thin mix. If the bees have enough feed and don't need more this is fine, stimulation achieved.
> 
> But from this practise the idea has arisen that thin syrup is for stimulating, thick syrup is for feeding. In fact all syrup feeding will stimulate a hive.


:thumbsup:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>But from this practise the idea has arisen that thin syrup is for stimulating, thick syrup is for feeding. In fact all syrup feeding will stimulate a hive.

Exactly.


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## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

Michael Bush said:


> I could never see any difference in what the bees do with it or how they respond to it. Thicker syrup lasts longer without spoiling so quickly. Thicker syrup is less work for the bees. Thicker syrup is less syrup for me to haul to the yard for the same amount of benefit. If I could get 2:1 to dissolve, I would do that. Since my hard water doesn't want to soak up that much sugar, I do 5:3 for all purposes at all times in the year that I might feed. But I don't feed unless I can see a very good reason to. Like getting them up to winter weight or keeping them from starving. I don't feed if there is nectar coming in.
> 
> As far as the other proportions you list, pretty much nothing over 2:1 will dissolve even in distilled water...


speaking of spoiling, what's the time frame for 1:1 and 2:1?


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

1:1 in the spring 2:1 in the fall. 1:1 can be readily used to feed brood where as 2:1 will be stored and require the bees to collect water to dilute it to feed brood.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

R_V said:


> speaking of spoiling, what's the time frame for 1:1 and 2:1?


1:1 doesn't last long. Maybe a few days. Especially when the weather is 80 or above. I add about a half tsp of bleach per gallon. That greatly extends the useful life of it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The speed at which syrup spoils is driven by many factors:

If you boil the water before adding the sugar it lasts longer.
If you boil the syrup it lasts longer (but probably has more HMF...)
If the weather is colder it lasts longer.
If the feeder is clean it lasts longer.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

Brad Bee said:


> 1:1 doesn't last long. Maybe a few days. Especially when the weather is 80 or above. I add about a half tsp of bleach per gallon. That greatly extends the useful life of it.


I started adding bleach this year. Has anyone seen a detrimental effect on the bees?


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## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

so short of tasting it or stuff growing in it, how do you know it's gone bad?


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Smells soured.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Quote from michael bush



> The speed at which syrup spoils is driven by many factors:
> 
> If you boil the water before adding the sugar it lasts longer.
> If you boil the syrup it lasts longer (but probably has more HMF...)
> ...


And if the bees have good access, it is warm enough, and they are hungry, It doesn't last very long

Sombody earlier quoted the study that randy oliver did and one other point I am pretty sure that he made was that thick or thin, it was the sugar content that made the amount of comb and so from a man hour labor perspective, You saved labor by using thicker syrup.
Cheers
gww


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>speaking of spoiling, what's the time frame for 1:1 and 2:1?

I never use 1:1. I would use 2:1 if I could get it to dissolve. I use 5:3 at all times. It keeps longer, and it's easier to haul the same amount of sugar around and makes the bees work less.


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