# Top entrance questions



## ARGluck (Mar 10, 2013)

I'll start by saying I enjoy woodworking, I like making things for my bees. I follow that up with, I sometimes get tired of making so many things for my bees. Making 8 deeps isn't hard and doesn't take long but following that with 4 bottom boards, 4 inner covers.... you get the idea.

Long story short, I like the idea of top entrances for several reasons (pests, convenience, no more inner covers, etc) but I have two questions I know someone with top entrance experience can answer.

1) With a Michael Bush style top entrance (no front overhang) do you find driving rains to ever be an issue? My bees are well protected from high winds but in NE we have hurricanes and strong winds (especially on the coast). Of course I'm sure I could just add a small overhang (1-2") but am I just wasting material?

2) Currently when I'm forced to feed syrup I use inverted jars w/an empty box over them. I don't seem the same system working for top entrances but I find it to be easy and I have all the gear... Is it feasible to still feed in this same manner w/top entrances and I'm just not seeing the simple solution?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I use top entrances and my covers are similar to Michael's, but I sized the boards to provide an overhang on all sides. My intention is that water dripping off the top does not run down the outsides of the boxes.

I have seen posts where beeks cut a hole in the top cover sized to fit a plug that can be inserted when there is no feeder in use. I haven't tried it.

.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

ARGluck said:


> 2) Currently when I'm forced to feed syrup I use inverted jars w/an empty box over them. I don't seem the same system working for top entrances but I find it to be easy and I have all the gear... Is it feasible to still feed in this same manner w/top entrances and I'm just not seeing the simple solution?


I also feed with 1 gallon feeders inside an empty box, with the feeders right on the top bars. There are several ways to work around this with top entrances, I use one of these two methods. 
First, some of my boxes have auger holes drilled in them. When feeding I'll tape off the top entrance and let the bees use the auger hole as an entrance. It is much easier for them to guard when feeding.
Second method, temporarily use an inner cover with the feeder and empty box on top of it, and let the bees use the inner cover notch facing down as an entrance. Tape off the entrance on the lid above the empty box to prevent robbers from entering from the top unguarded.


----------



## kkauf (Jan 13, 2014)

Mike Gillmore, I am just southwest of you near Columbus. Do your bee's winter well with top entrances? Do you reduce them in the winter? If so is ventilation a problem?


----------



## Lee Davis (Jan 26, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack,

As a fellow East Tennessean I am switching to top entrances this year and planned to switch out the ventilated bottom board to a solid bottom board. Is that what you do and do you have any other suggestions that are helpful to our climate?

Thanks!
Lee


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I built bottom boards that are capable of holding an oil pan (under a screen). Other than access for getting the oil tray out, my bottom boards are solid (no ventilation). They are based on a slightly modified Beesource plan. The linked plan does not show an oil tray, but its not hard to add space for the tray. I did not permanently remove the entrance shown in the plans - the entrance is still there but I add a piece of wood to act as a block.

As for the oil tray, i cannot say with any _certainty _that they are effective, but their dollar cost is minimal and I see no downside.

Also I am no expert - what I am doing seems to be working but things could change anytime.  :lookout:


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

kkauf said:


> Mike Gillmore, I am just southwest of you near Columbus. Do your bee's winter well with top entrances? Do you reduce them in the winter? If so is ventilation a problem?


I've had good overwintering results with top entrances. Over winter I close down the entrance to no more than a 1" opening. Or I'll have a single auger hole open in the top box with the cover entrance closed off. No inner covers used. I put 2" insulation board on top of the cover weighed down with a cinder block. This seems to help prevent moisture from condensing on the inside of the top cover. 

I use screened bottom boards, but for winter the trays are in and all openings are partially blocked to prevent drafts in windy conditions. I do leave small gaps on the bottom so there is always "some" ventilation from bottom to top to vent moisture.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Is there any reason that you cannot use a bottom entrance feeder and close off the rest of the opening?


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Brian, that would work fine in warmer weather. When it's cool, and if you use upper entrances, the bees usually seem to be clustered toward the top of the stack and are not prone to wander down away from the cluster to the bottom for syrup. If the feeder is right on top of the cluster they take the syrup more readily.


----------



## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I use upper entraces only. My hives have no bottom entrance.

I build inner covers along the lines of the Honey Run Apiary ones. You can google it to see plans. I cut a 3/8" x 5" slot for the entrance. Being one to never leave werll enough alone I have made some further modifications. I built some with a slatted rack instead of using a piece of plywood. This gives added ventilation. The best feature is it makes feeding easy. I can put 1 gal paint cans on top of it. I put fondant on top of it. It would be easy to put sugar blocks on top of it. I will build more of these with some type of slatted inner cover incorporated in the future.

As far as overwintering goes I have only lost one of seven hives so far this year with upper entraces reduces to about 1-1.5 inches and screened bottoms closed. I don't attribute the high survival rate to upper entrances.

Tom


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I tried top entrances on some hives this last season because I was having a really bad skunk problem in some yards, and I have mixed feelings about them. It does take care of the skunk issues, but I noticed lots of pollen being stored in the honey supers along with the honey, which I didn't care for. I'm thinking that when you put a top entrance way up on top of the stack of supers, far away from the brood nest area, you are going to get more pollen stored up high because the bees have to go so much further to get to the brood area and some may choose not to go all the way down there. There was no brood raised in the supers that had lots of pollen in them, just in case you are wondering, just pollen and honey. Some combs were 1/3 or more filled with pollen on both sides and the rest honey. Has anyone else who has run top entrances ever experienced this?


----------



## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I have only had significant pollen in supers on a weak flows. On my strongest hives I will put a 3/8" entrance shim between the brood nest and supers.

Tom


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Has anyone else who has run top entrances ever experienced this? 

I've seen pollen sometimes in supers with or without top entrances. I can't say if it's worse, I've always sorted those out when harvesting and send them back to the hives...


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

TWall said:


> I have only had significant pollen in supers on a weak flows. On my strongest hives I will put a 3/8" entrance shim between the brood nest and supers.Tom


When you put a 3/8" shim between the top brood box and the honey supers don't you get lots of burr comb in that space? Just an idea, what if someone were to make a shallow rim about 1" high, using the same o.d. of a hive box, with an entrance slot in it, and put in slats front to back like a slatted rack, and put that directly above the broodnest so that there is a correct bee space above and below the slats? Wouldn't that eliminate most of the burr comb and still give you the upper entrance?


----------



## TWall (May 19, 2010)

The bees will sometimes make some bridge/burr comb. I haven't found it to be a big problem. I often just scrape it off with my hive and then chew on it on the way home, it lets me get a preview of the honey in the super I just pulled!

The slatted racks I use for my bottom boards had a big enough gap on the bottom side that the bees would still build comb. 

The entrance shim I build is one posted by Joseph Clemens, do a search and see if you can find the thread. He had a link to some detailed drawings. I don't use it on all hives, just large colonies during a strong flow or when the five inch entrance is getting crowded.

Tom


----------



## ARGluck (Mar 10, 2013)

Since nobody directly answered it (or I'm just blind and illiterate) am I safe to assume nobody has had issues w/driving rains causing problems w/top entrances?

The feeding I'm not terribly concerned with as I don't have to feed often and there's more ways to feed than opinions on bees haha.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Since nobody directly answered it ...

I thought I was responding to your question by stating (post #2) that my [oversize] migratory style lids have overhangs on all sides. That overhang does allow water running off the roof to drip outside of the box edges, but also makes it much more difficult for wind-driven rain to get inside the entrance.


----------



## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Yes, rain can possibly get in the upper entrance. It is unlikely to get very far in before gravity overcomes any residual momentum from the wind and it will drain down to the bottom of the hive. I guess there is a possibility if the bottom board is sealed tightly liquid could accumulate.

I believe Michael Bush uses his solid bottom boards as a feeder. So, he could better address potential for build up of rainwater in the bottom of the hive.

My gut feeling is it will not be a problem.

Tom


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Rain would have to blow in 90 degrees to the hive at hurricane force winds to give any problem, the water will just run down the inside wall to the bottom if there is any to speak of.


----------



## ARGluck (Mar 10, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > Since nobody directly answered it ...
> 
> I thought I was responding to your question by stating (post #2) that my [oversize] migratory style lids have overhangs on all sides. That overhang does allow water running off the roof to drip outside of the box edges, but also makes it much more difficult for wind-driven rain to get inside the entrance.


Sorry I misread it. I though you meant your overhanging sides would stop rain from going in from the sides. I meant our coastal winds driving rain/condensation in the front.

SBBs would alleviate any buildup on the bottom board if there is any. Just wondering for situations like we have on the coast where warm water off the ocean beats down in freezing temps and if that ever causes issues.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You always need a bottom board set up so it can drain. If it's solid it nees to tip slightly forward. Mine have a drain hole in the front (because the entrance is blocked) with a 1/4" dowel for a plug when I want to use it as a feeder. There will be condensation even if there isn't any rain...


----------



## carlinmo (Jun 6, 2010)

I have used upper entrances for several years. You do get a small amount of burr comb but that is not a big problem. In the last two years I have pulled 200+ frames of honey above the entrances and I have seen brood or pollen on very few frames and most of that was in one hive where the queen obviously moved up.
My honey production increased when I added the upper entrance. I have all of my hives on screened bottom boards and topped with vent boxes as shown.

I make the insides of the frame slightly longer than 19 7/8". I pull the frame forward so that there is a 1/8-3/16" gap between the landing board and hive box. Water that hits the landing board runs down the front of the hive.










Carl Korschgen


----------



## ARGluck (Mar 10, 2013)

Thank you Carlinmo. I was debating a "middle" entrance just like that. Perhaps slatted. Do you mind posting a close up of that entrance so I can get a better idea of it?


----------



## carlinmo (Jun 6, 2010)

ARGluck,

Here is a 60 second video of my hive configuration with upper entrance frames as shown above. I use screened bottom boards, upper entrances, and vent boxes year round. Video taken in June of 2012 when we were well into the worst drought of 100 years in Columbia, MO.

[video]http://s876.photobucket.com/user/carlinmo/media/Beehivewithupperentrance.mp4.html[/video]

Per your question about feeding: I feed in the vent box before supers are added -- the Mann Lake black two-compartment feeder fits or you can make the vent box taller to accommodate quart jars. I put TWO holes the size of jar lids in my inner covers (and often incorporate the inner cover into the construction of the vent box).

Carl Korschgen


----------



## Mandkfarmer (Feb 14, 2013)

I am going into my second year and have seen a lot around top entrances, couple questions that may help newbees thinking about going this direction.
When would be the best time to switch over from the bottom entrance?

Would you install the top, then slowly close off the bottom?

How does this affect if you rotate brood boxes in the spring?

And, is there any different approach needed during inspections, since you pretty much remove their entrance as soon as you start.

Thanks, Mark


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mandkfarmer said:


> Would you install the top, then slowly close off the bottom?


If you don't close off the bottom then the bees that are using it will continue to use it until they are dead.

If you close off the bottom that all the bees will use the top because they have no choice.

So what do you want to do?


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Mandkfarmer said:


> When would be the best time to switch over from the bottom entrance?


The next warm day would be a great time to close off the bottom and add the upper entrance, before they establish any set flight patterns for foraging. 



Mandkfarmer said:


> Would you install the top, then slowly close off the bottom?


That might be best if the switch is made in the spring or summer. If you suddenly close the bottom entrance off completely you will have bees massed on the outside at the old entrance. They will eventually reorient to the top, but it takes a little while. 



Mandkfarmer said:


> How does this affect if you rotate brood boxes in the spring?


No difference, they will still be fixed to the upper entrance location even if you reverse boxes. I haven't noticed any negative impact on brood rearing with an upper entrance.



Mandkfarmer said:


> And, is there any different approach needed during inspections, since you pretty much remove their entrance as soon as you start.


There is more activity since you are inspecting at the general location of the entrance. I like to remove a box and set it down a step or two away from the colony and inspect it there. Keeps me away from the returning bees as I inspect the frames.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> If you suddenly close the bottom entrance off completely you will have bees massed on the outside at the old entrance. They will eventually reorient to the top, but it takes a little while.


I feel if you are going to do it just do it. You are not going to kill any bees from the pile up at the old entrance. It seems to me it is less of an upset to get it over as quickly as possible rather than drag it out.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I feel if you are going to do it just do it. You are not going to kill any bees from the pile up at the old entrance.

You will if it gets cold enough at night...


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Would you install the top, then slowly close off the bottom?

If you reduce the bottom to just big enough for one bee and leave the top wide open, then the slow ones can still get back in for the night. You don't need to that gradually, but the final closing might be better to be gradual after most have found the top entrance.


----------



## carlinmo (Jun 6, 2010)

Hive ventilation is important. If you close the bottom entrance entirely then I believe the hive must be on a screened bottom board. I make SBB with a 3/8” (bee space) gap (mouse eliminator) and add a reducer with a 1-3” slot. At least this works for me in my location.

Hive sanitation is important. I use middle entrances but never completely close the bottom entrance so that the bees can easily clean the hive without having to carry dead bees and debris up through brood boxes and supers. I think middle entrances give the bees a chance to move more efficiently into the brood boxes and the supers during flows.

The bees will adapt very quickly to the location of the entrance.


----------



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

ARGluck said:


> 1) With a Michael Bush style top entrance (no front overhang) do you find driving rains to ever be an issue? My bees are well protected from high winds but in NE we have hurricanes and strong winds (especially on the coast). Of course I'm sure I could just add a small overhang (1-2") but am I just wasting material?
> 
> 2) Currently when I'm forced to feed syrup I use inverted jars w/an empty box over them. I don't seem the same system working for top entrances but I find it to be easy and I have all the gear... Is it feasible to still feed in this same manner w/top entrances and I'm just not seeing the simple solution?


1. Yes. I have solved this by drilling a hole in the solid bottom board and covering it with metal window screen. Don't use the fabric screen or the bees / SHB will eat through it. If any water does come in and the boxes are propolised together if there's no hole water will pool up inside. I don't use a overhang. I've seen the bees have a harder time entering than if it's flush. Also there's less wind resistance.

2. I do one of two things. . . Cut a entrance in another box to use as the "upper" entrance and seal the lid entrance completely or if the hive is strong enough I'll just leave things as they are and reduce the upper entrance (now with a empty box on top) down to 1" or 1/2" or so so they can guard it well. The best option is to bring the entrance down to where they're working / AKA their frames of brood / honey.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1) With a Michael Bush style top entrance (no front overhang) do you find driving rains to ever be an issue?

No.

> My bees are well protected from high winds but in NE we have hurricanes and strong winds (especially on the coast).

We never get calm rain. It's always in 40-60 mph winds and occasional gusts high enough to snap off full grown trees at the trunk...

> Of course I'm sure I could just add a small overhang (1-2") but am I just wasting material?

Overhangs just catch the wind and cause more rain to blow in and cause the lids to blow off...

>2) Currently when I'm forced to feed syrup I use inverted jars w/an empty box over them. I don't seem the same system working for top entrances but I find it to be easy and I have all the gear... Is it feasible to still feed in this same manner w/top entrances and I'm just not seeing the simple solution?

If that's what you want to do, then cut the hole for the jar in the lid and leave a lid with no holes punched in it in the hole when you're not feeding. I converted my bottoms to feeders.

http ://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm#BottomBoardFeeder


----------



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

carlinmo said:


> Hive ventilation is important. If you close the bottom entrance entirely then I believe the hive must be on a screened bottom board.


I actually found the opposite to be true. On solid bottoms the fanning was much less than it was on screened bottoms. Perhaps they were better able to keep the temp right inside vs. having to create much heat in the lower box to keep that warm and then it was hotter in the upper box? I'm not sure. It could be that the location as in everything else is the difference. I've done cut-outs where the entrance is at the top and there's no issue that I can see with ventilation or the lack of it. There's no moisture / mold on the comb that the bees wern't on at the time.


----------



## Mandkfarmer (Feb 14, 2013)

Great information here for us newbee's, thanks everyone.


----------



## VodoBaas1 (Mar 26, 2013)

I am in the process of making some top entrances and had a question about the shims. I found some at a big box store and the only ones I can find are 16"x1"x3/8". In reality the height of the shim is 1/4". My question is, is that high enough for the bees to enter and exit? Where do you get your shims? Thanks for the input.


----------



## carlinmo (Jun 6, 2010)

Your best bet is to rip a board with a table saw to the height dimension that you want. I usually use the scrap that comes off ripping boards for boxes. Check out what "bee space" is and make your shims to the thickness that fits your bees.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Bees can fit through a 1/4" space.


> *Bee space: *A space (1/4- to 5/16-inch) big enough to permit free passage for a bee but too small to encourage comb building. Leaving bee space between parallel beeswax combs and between the outer comb and the hive walls is the basic principle of hive construction.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?237911-Beekeeping-Glossary


If you are concerned that the wood shims aren't as high as you would like, one option would be to _Titebond _glue some cardboard between the wood shim and the cover. (Cardboard like a cereal box, not the corrugated kind. Seal the exposed edges with more glue.)


----------



## VodoBaas1 (Mar 26, 2013)

Thanks for the input. I'm fine with the 1/4" height. I just wanted to make sure they would be able to get in and out and wasn't sure what the minimum dimensions were.


----------



## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

1/4" is very tight and bees have to sqeeze through. I suggest that 3/8 is minimal for easy movement of bees through the entrance.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I can find are 16"x1"x3/8". In reality the height of the shim is 1/4". My question is, is that high enough for the bees to enter and exit?

Yes. 1/4" is a beespace. Queens, workers, drones can all go easily through 1/4".

> Where do you get your shims? 

The lumber yard.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

VodoBaas1 said:


> My question is,... Where do you get your shims?


Table saw. I understand that some people are not the crafty type but even if you aren't mastering a table saw is something you should put on your bucket list as a beekeeper in the future.


----------



## VodoBaas1 (Mar 26, 2013)

Thanks for the replies. Just wanted to make sure they could get out.  Ace, someday when I have the room and money I would love to get a table saw, until then I am using what is available.


----------



## Merl (Mar 4, 2014)

Can't help getting your bearing out but as a suggestion that works for me. I got a piece of UMHW for a bearing replacement I took it a machine shop and he made me a bearing. Nothing more than a bushing but don't have moving parts and is food grade. Probably won't work for a commercial keeper that has a lot more use that I use but you might think about UMHW


----------

