# Sloped vs Straight wall hives.



## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

Not trying to be argumentative, but your logic does not flow for me.

- a bottom mite screen means the mites are funneled out....
- hive debris ends up in a narrow band and easier for the bees to clean up

If you have a bottom screen what debris is there for bees to clean up? The debris on a bottom screens falls through along with the mites.

- the bottom screen helps with ventilation....

A bottom screen does the same thing on any hive.

- sloping sides are better for rainy weather

Any preservative of paint or wax sheds water just as well as sloping sides

- Humidity from the hive doesnt have a chance to sit in a corner, rotting out the bottom

What bottom? There is none on a screened hive.

- the biggest advantage....is MUCH reduced volume

'reduced volume' compared to what? It takes volume to hold the 60 pounds of honey bees need to survive winter in other parts of the country.

- Since the combs are not retangular anyhow, why waste the space with vertical walls

Bees make combs to fit the space available, they waste no space in any shaped cavity.

There is a multitude of ways to keep bees successfully, and many on this forum have tried several designs because some work better than others in certain climates. No way will you ever convince Roger Delon that sloped sides are a positive in the Alps (google 'roger delon Alpine hives' for more info).

Personal observation: any predilection for sloped vis a vis vertical sided TBHs has more basis in emotional preference than scientific analysis.

- If you like sloped sides go for it.
- If you like vertical sides go for it.

Even better, try both. Keep logs of performance under the same conditions and see which one the bees like best (bees do not always agree with what we think is good for them).


----------



## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Church,
I agree with your conclusion and with most of your reasons, especially shelter. I use side entrances, which are better protected with sloped sides.

JaiPea,
I agree with some of your counter arguments, except that in my experience, bees still build catenary curves even in a straight-sided hive, so long as it is more than about 14" wide. Your bees may - and very likely will - behave differently.


----------



## Church (May 31, 2007)

Jaipea,

With all due respect;

Honestly, it sounds like you're just trying to be condescending and forgive my honesty but your post swarms of hubris wanting to prove a point, any point, without sticking to the thread topic. I won't even engage with an explanation why your points are a priori and irrelevant to TBHs. We can discuss critical volume in thermoregulation, radiant heat and comb failure, hive humidity as it relates to bacterial/fungal diseases, mite population control, etc. but I think it would be wasted. Paint isn't the topic of this thread neither is apine boxes which are not TBHs. Apples and Oranges.

I would assume that most would like to discuss logical and practical design issues that pertain to healthy, productive bees which also facilitate ease in hive management. 

If you would like to build your hives without any regard to sound science, observations from others who have hives in practice and have data to suggest why certain design features may be a benefit thats fine........again, not relevant to this thread. What possible purpose do you have for this statement ?

"- If you like sloped sides go for it.
- If you like vertical sides go for it." 

Most will agree that the only emotion that is relevant is "what works makes me happy" Only by an open forum with sincere input can we improve on what makes us happy. Hives are built based on function; that function results in emotion. I for one would rather be happy knowing my hives were healthy and productive by DESIGN than to just use the notion "if you like it, go for it". 

And thanks for the warm welcome


----------



## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

Buckbee: I misspoke on "they waste no space in any shaped cavity", I was thinking solely in terms of a hive. Catenary curved combs are common in the cutouts I've done from roof colonies and large cavities but I only see catenary curves in my hives when the bees are building comb. Even in a 22"W 16"D TBH which had plenty of room for expansion to the rear, my bees preferred to expand combs sideways rather than start on another bar.

Church: This is a forum for interchange, and your points mixing bottom screen and bottom board made no sense to me, and remain unexplained.

Hives are a compromise between what works for the bees and what works for the beek. I started experimenting with sloped and vertical, narrow and wide, shallow and deep TBHs years ago when lifting Lang boxes became tiresome.

- Replacing the bottom boards with #8 screen was a design improvement that improved every variation
- The reduced volume of sloped requires more attention/maintenance of hive conditions
- When sloped was made longer to achieve same volume as a vertical TBH, the last few bars never had any comb
- The bees in deeper hives performed better but handling the comb was more difficult
- The deeper the hive, the less difficult it is to handle combs in a sloped TBH
- The bees draw straighter comb on narrow bars than on wide bars

The longer the hive the less effective use the bees make of the space available, which is why given the same width and depth, hive output/performance has been better for me in vertical sides. OTOH, handling the combs is easier with sloped. Which of these is more important is not scientific, it is a personal preference i.e. emotional.

There are many more factors in "critical volume in thermoregulation, radiant heat and comb failure, hive humidity as it relates to bacterial/fungal diseases, mite population control" than sloped vs vertical sides. If you have analyses that show the slope to be of overriding significance it would certainly be interesting to read.

You wrote "I would love to hear your thoughts on the matter" but responded with "it sounds like you're just trying to be condescending.....your post swarms of hubris wanting to prove a point, any point, without sticking to the thread topic".

There is no need to take offense. If you don't like what is said, simply ignore it and move on because this is not a place for personal attacks on each other.


----------



## Church (May 31, 2007)

Buckbee,

with side entrances doesn't that make hive management a nightmare?

I tried one with side entrances and it was too much work.

Do you inspect each comb? 

At least with mine, I service them from the back opposite the entrance so im assured to run into honey before brood comb. I seldom even disturb the first 10 or 15 bars closest to the entrance. Minimal contact with the colony and consistant.....no need to pull every bar. Im at least 2 ft away from the entrance and not in their path so I seldom get buzzed.....


----------



## Church (May 31, 2007)

Jaipea,

Respectfully, since apparently you are always right, theres no sense in any discussion. 

I stand corrected, I would like to hear from people who are interested in discussing the topic of this thread about top bar hives with regard to sloped vs. vertical sides ie. advantages or disadvantages. Im sorry if you misunderstood or if I was not clear by the title of this thread.

The issue of open screened bottoms is merely the point that many tbh designs show solid bottoms. My personal belief, from experience and testing, is that IF one chooses to use a screened bottom, to aid in humidity, mite reduction, etc. that a narrow bottom (6 inches wide vs 16 inches wide) works better in keeping the hive warm vs. the entire bottom open, which I find provides too much heat loss and is harder to close in the winter if needed. I hope this clarifies my position. My hives have no bottom board but have screened bottoms to keep the hive more hygienic, healthy and for ventilation. All are interrelated. 

I was not offended by your post, I just found your examples irrelevant to top bar hive sides. Paint and alpine boxes, not TBHs, I see no relation to the discussion and I rarely if ever get emotional or use "emotion" when discussing hive design. 

FWIW


----------



## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

*I think i like*

sloped sides. Not sure yet 'cause i've had no bees in the sloper.

The bees i had in the straight one did great, too great. Filled the thing in nothing flat and it's about 4' long, close to 20" wide, 12" deep. My problem was getting anything out of it. Once the sides are cut free, i gotta pull straight up, very slowly and carefully. That comb is gonna drag all the way up til it's clear of the top. Putting it back isn't any easier.

On a sloper, all you gotta do is cut it loose and start to lift and straight away you've got all kinds of clearance with nothing but more comming your way.

But like i say, i haven't had hands on with the sloped-sided one yet, but i sure do like all those attributes mentioned in the opener as well.

By the way, i have side entrances but do not understand the problem associated with such. Care to educate me on this one? I'd be much obliged.
TIA
-j


----------



## Church (May 31, 2007)

Jim,

I hope this explains why the entrance along the narrow end is preferable.

In my hives, the entrance is at the one narrow end. My hives all face in one direction so I can walk behind them without disturbing the bees. I like to face my hive entrances south so there is a temperature gradient during the winter of the warmest at the brood end, the coolest at the honey end.

I open the hive from the back, the north end, opposite the hive entrance (the other narrow end). Since this is the farthest from the brood comb, its the most likely to have the honey comb.

I need not pull all the frames, nor smoke the colony other than the frames I wish to harvest (i don't like the term "rob" since I am providing them free rent and care) since Im not disturbing the brood area at all. 

For example: Top bars 1-10 from hive entrance contain the queen and brood comb, 11-25 may have capped honey and 26-30 are not ready or not used. This is just an example and not to be used as gospel......just to give you an idea of how the hive orients. I would harvest bars 11-25, then move bars 26-30 into the 11-15 position, and replace the trimmed bars.

One can vary the bars and hive volume with a reducing bar which blocks off the back of the hive that isn't being used. Also, a feeder can be placed in the back of the hive when needed. They need not be specialized like with the Lang boxes, ie a frame feeder or top feeder. A simple poultry fount with pebbles or a wire screen to prevent drowning will work fine. 

I don't see any advantage to having the entrance along the middle...it just makes for more work and grumpy bees.

Hope this helps.


----------



## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Church said:


> Jim,
> 
> I don't see any advantage to having the entrance along the middle...it just makes for more work and grumpy bees.


Not in my experience. Using a side entrance in the middle, with a follower each side of the colony, allows easy access to both ends of the colony, which means that you can inspect from both ends towards the middle, which in turn means that often you do not need to disturb the brood area at all. Far from making bees grumpy, I find they are very calm with this arrangement.

Another advantage is the sheltered position of the entrance, which is protected by the overhang and the roof.


----------



## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

*It's all a matter of what works for you.*

For example: Top bars 1-10 from hive entrance contain the queen and brood comb, 11-25 may have capped honey and 26-30 are not ready or not used. This is just an example and not to be used as gospel......just to give you an idea of how the hive orients. I would harvest bars 11-25, then move bars 26-30 into the 11-15 position, and replace the trimmed bars.

Church,
I manage my hives the exactly way you mentioned above but this came from 3 years of experimenting and finding what workes for me and the environment I have my bees in. 

Folks,
There is no right or wrong answer to this question the idea here is to learn how the bees want to do things and give them what they want. That will vary depending on the conditions stated above. Dennis was in Wyoming and I am in southern Germany large volume works for him but not for me.

JaiPea,
I found your post a little on the agressive side but I also take into consideration that posts and e-mails leave no room for interpreting the authors intentions.


----------



## Church (May 31, 2007)

Miki,

I agree entirely about "what works for me" because everyone is unique in the way they manage, their production goals, etc.

Buckbee, I agree with those points if I had a few hives. I did set up 10 TBHs with side entrances vs. end. After a year, I looked at the labor time and physical workload of the keeper and it was almost double that of servicing from one end. I do use those side entrance TBHs now for queen storage and they work just fine. Maybe I should have been clearer and indicated that for harvesting honey.......I find working the hive from the end faster and less stressful. If I had 10,000 TBHs I could not afford the labor costs if they had side entrances. Another key point is that side entrance TBHs cannot be palletized unless you only want two per pallet. For small numbers its not a problem, for huge numbers is a deal breaker.

I do see a big advantange if you like to inspect your brood combs on a regular basis. I tend to leave them alone unless there is a need. 

I also see a huge advantage if you wanted to make splits or have a double queen colony with having side entrances........just slip an excluder down the middle or a reducer, and youve got two hives. 

Sooooo, is there a right and wrong...........clearly no. 

OK back to sloped vs. straight sided TBHs:

I've listed some reasons I like sloped, here are some problems I have with sloped sided TBHs:

1. Non functional in a situation where you have langs: they dont fit lang frames therefore you cannot transfer brood, make splits, etc. easily if you are working with langs as well. If you build you straight sided TBHs the same size as traditional frames, you have the ability to use the frames in both if you choose, for whatever reason, *NOT that I would want to use frames.......just too much work* 

2. Sloped TBHs are top heavy and can easily be dumped by a raccoon or other. Living in California, even earthquake may be a disaster for sloped TBHs vs straight. My solution is wider ends to brace and as support. 

3. In colder climates sloped TBHs don't benefit from radiant solar load during the day. I live in a hot climate so they are better in the summer for reducing daily heat load. It really depends on your climate.

4. Slopes are much more difficult to truck. they don't transfer load well when stacked. 

5. SLoped TBHs take a bit more time to build, but use less material. Also I found them to be stronger as a freestanding unit and don't warp out as much as straight sided=less maintenance over years.

And if you build straight sided TBHs, don't have them painted military green and delivered via truckload at night. Your neighbors will think they are gun boxes and worry you are planning an coup............or maybe thats a good thing? .  

OK, I hope I stirred up the pot........


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1. I use a bottom mite screen, this means the mites are funneled out and dont have as much chance to get back into the hive. Also hive debris ends up in a narrow band and easier for the bees to clean up.

My TTBH has a screen. My KTBH does not. How is this realted to slope?

>2. I think the bottom screen helps with ventilation; this reduces bacterial and fungal hive diseases due to too much humidity and i feel good ventilation promotes healthier bees.

I don't see much difference except that I have to close off some of the screened bottom board of there is too much ventilation. The KTBH with no screened bottom board seems to do very well.

>3. the sloping sides are better for rainy weather, the lid covers the hive better and prevents the sides from getting rained on as much. 

I don't like lids that stick out, but if that's an issue you can have an overhang regardless of the shape of the hive.

>Humidity from the hive doesnt have a chance to sit in a corner, rotting out the bottom, its funneled to the center and out the bottom.

Humidity goes out the top. I don't have a problem with the bottom rotting out on my TTB, but that's probably because it's #8 hardware cloth.

>4. The sloping sides prevent the hive from heating up too much in my warm climate from the angle of the sun.

Mine are in the shade.

>And the biggest advantage I see from sloped sides that Ive yet to see mentioned is MUCH reduced volume for the hive. 

That makes no sense. The volume is whatever you make it. It is unrelated to the slope of the sides.

>Since the combs are not retangular anyhow, why waste the space with vertical walls.

You should tell my bees that. All my TTBH combs are exactly rectangular when they get done with them, just as the KTBH combs follow the walls exactly as well.


----------



## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

*Church-*

Thanks for the reply.

You must be an engineer.

-j

BTW- Where in Ventura art thou?


----------



## Church (May 31, 2007)

Michael,

>My TTBH has a screen. My KTBH does not. How is this realted to slope?

Slope=narrow bottom : narrow bottom screen=adequate ventilation, and easier to close if too much vs. a screened KTBH. in math terms: 288 sq. inches of ventilation vs. 768 sq inches of ventilation; Sloped v. Straight= 267 percent less ventilation screen. Ventilation is good, too much not good in my opinion.

>I don't see much difference except that I have to close off some of the screened bottom board of there is too much ventilation. The KTBH with no screened bottom board seems to do very well.

Sloped=much less sq. inches to close off if too much ventilation. Personal opinion on ventilation and bottom screen=reduced varroa mite problems and other diseases. If there is condensation, the water will drip down......and out the screened bottom, rather than on the bottom of the hive. Also if the cover leaks, due to whatever reason, the screen bottom will drain the water off, reducing humidity.

>I don't like lids that stick out, but if that's an issue you can have an overhang regardless of the shape of the hive.

My lids don't stick out. Rain doesnt fall exactly vertical due to wind, so regardless of the lid, a sloped side will be less prone to getting wet if the top of the hive is wider than the base. Simple physics. Sloped sides get less wet in rain regardless of the top cover. 

>Humidity goes out the top. I don't have a problem with the bottom rotting out on my TTB, but that's probably because it's #8 hardware cloth.

Humidity as water vapor will go out the top with the warmer air if reasonable. If too high, it will condense as water droplets then fall. 

>Mine are in the shade.

Not everyone has shade so how is that relevant to design?

>That makes no sense. The volume is whatever you make it. It is unrelated to the slope of the sides.

Simple math again. **Note, dimensions only used for comparison not for design figures in building a TBH**

Volume of a cube; l x w x h length x width x height.

Volume of a prism: V = a x l where a= the surface area of the shape of the prism l=length.

SO: Lets compare volume of TBHs with the same bar length and hive length.

48" x 16" x 12"=9216 cubic inches= Straight walled TBH (volume of a retangular box)

16 x 12 x 48 inverted pyramidal shape (sloped TBH) calculation of the side based on formula for calculating length of the sloped wall **see geometry formulas** side wall=14.42 inches roughly

area of cross section (a) = 95.98 sq inches (roughly)

so: 95.98 x 48= 4800 square inches. =volume of a sloped TBH (add 10 percent if you want to consider the 6 inch base width) 

**note, I didnt use the exact formulas for calculating the area of a pyramidal shape but they are within 10 percent of what a triangle would be**

SO; roughly; the volume of a sloped tbh is about half of the straight tbh.

Translation; the volume of a 16 inch wide sloped tbh vs a straight walled tbh of the same width and length is roughly 50 to 60 percent, MUCH LESS.

How does this not make sense to you? a triangle is half the surface area of a rectangle of the same base and height. 

>You should tell my bees that. All my TTBH combs are exactly rectangular when they get done with them, just as the KTBH combs follow the walls exactly as well.

I think you missed my point; completed combs fit the box they are in, yes. but natural comb is catenary to some degree... your combs aren't perfectly retangular in a sloped TBH I hope. My point being, the sloped walls conform to what is more naturally ocurring in nature, and the combs on the bars are more structurally sound, reduced risk of failure, in a pyramidal or catenary shape. Thus, brood comb CAN be deeper in sloped TBHs and stronger due to less weight vs straight sided comb. Also as a side note, vertically long brood comb has been suggested to be more mite resistant than wide shallow comb...........the mites have a longer fall if groomed off and take longer to climb back up. 

I hope this clarifies things.


----------



## TX Ashurst (May 31, 2005)

*Warning: Personal opinion*

I like straight sides in my TBH. I often drill & glue dowels into the top bar, a beespace away from the sides of the hive to allow the bees to attach comb to the dowels, and this simplifies removing the frames from the hive. This idea can be seen in its original form by doing a search on "Jackson Top Bar Hive". I took their ideas, but I leave off the bottom dowel they use.

My top bars with dowels are also great for cut-outs, because you can put rubber bands, string, wire, or whatever to hold the comb in and support it across the comb as well as holding it up tight to the bar. I find it very easy to slip a rubber band (MB was right on that) over the ends of the vertical dowels, place the comb on the bar bar, then slide the rubberband down a bit until it holds the comb upright. Then it's simple to rubberband the comb over the top of the bar to hold it tight. I often do this while bees are still wandering around over the comb.

But even on bars that I haven't yet retrofitted with the vertical dowels, I don't have a lot of trouble removing bars with comb from the hive. I cut the comb free at both sides, then pull one end the bar away from the nest and swing it clear. Then I can lift the comb clear without dragging on the sides. It takes about 3 bars out of the way to do this, but I've yet to have a hive fill my TBH all the way to the end.


----------



## TX Ashurst (May 31, 2005)

*Warning: Personal opinion*

Oops, double post.


----------



## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

*References to sloped sides*

I was just rereading James Shatterfield's site (his do not have sloped sides)which led me to try to find a reference to slöped sides. All I came up with is, it is a copy of very old hives which were made from the materials available i.e. hollow tree trunks. Is it just a matter of necessity being the mother of invention, or was there a reason?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>SO: Lets compare volume of TBHs with the same bar length and hive length.

You are in control of all of those. You can change the bar length, the depth, and the length as well as the angle of the slope. The volume is, therefore, whatever you make it.


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Church, how many TBH's are you running and what are your results?


----------



## Church (May 31, 2007)

Ross:

40 in production, another 40 in testing and a dozen hybrids. Lots of different materials and shapes. 

Results:

Mind you, my climate is great for TBHs, very mild winters, good flow for months, and not a lot of contamination issues. 

Cost: 1/5 to 1/10th the cost of comparable lang hive initially, much more savings over the lifespan.........no foundation, frames, storage etc. 

Honey, less than a lang but not by much when you consider the sale of extremely clean wax. 
Labor: much less than a lang. 
Disease and Mites: almost none and very little preventative treatments needed. Mostly when introducing new packages.
Swarming: much less; i feel due to the better ventilation and lack of CO2 buildup. Much easier to make splits.
Much faster start up in the spring and very good overwintering.

I don't rent them out as pollinators so I don't know how functional they would be as rentals. 

Next year with normal rainfall I should have good objective data side by side with langs to show total costs, labor, production and health. 

Hopefully I will have some good data on different strains and which is best suited for tbhs as well.

The only disadvantages I find are queen rearing and what to do with all the spare time and lack of back problems due to langs. LOL 

I will keep my langs for queen production and comparisons, but the heck with honey production.......they are just too messy.


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Remember that you don't need foundation for Langs either.

Top ventilation should eliminate any CO2 in Langs.

Clean wax is not exclusive to TBH. You can cut from a Lang too.

Splits, what's easier than setting a Lang super on a bottom board and adding a top?

Just some thoughts.....


----------



## Church (May 31, 2007)

Ross,

Yes you are right.....I am comparing the traditional use and design of langs.

I would assume most use foundation in langs, also that the majority do not have screened open bottoms for ventilation.

CO2 is denser than Oxygen or Nitrogen so a top vent is great for hot air (Nitrogen, Oxygen, water vapor) but does it allow CO2 to be reduced where needed? does stratification with CO2 rich air end up in your brood at the bottom of your hive with a traditional lang? 

Langs don't produce nearly as much wax as TBHs....one argument for langs in that the bees are not producing as much comb when a frame is replaced.

So.......I guess we could say that non traditional lang use would change things but then would that really be a lang? 

In a TBH you have no stratification of air, and you are forced to harvest fresh wax as part of the management.

That grey area between a lang and tbh, now thats good stuff. 

Thanks Ross


----------

