# Has anyone bred pure Russians and Sunkist Cordovans before?



## Kazzandra (Jul 7, 2010)

I was hoping to hear from others that may have had experience in breeding these two lines or something very similar to them. I'm also open to speculation: what do you think a cross between a SunKist Cordovan and a pure Russian might be like? 

Assume that the only drones in the area would be from these lines. In my area, that is pretty much true, due to several factors.

Do you think that I would be trading in my mite resistance by having SunKist Cordovans in the same yard with my Russians? And if they raise their own queens, would they potentially be horrendous hotties, with traits worse than their Russian parents? I really want to have my hives raise their own queens instead of be dependent on someone else for queens. 

I also think that despite the benefits of pure Russians, genetic diversity would ensure survival better than anything. 

I'm all for speculation. After all, speculating about a cross is a Punnett square and a guess.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

That would be a question for Russell, but I expect that it would be similar to any other mutt. 

As with most uncontrolled matings, you would have unknown genes and and mixed drones. Which is why people have controlled drone mothers and flood the area. Then bees are culled and selected overtime to your expected results.

In your case, some of the good qualities may carry over more in the first generation, but the might not on the second generation. Or you might get insanely mean Russians that wonder why they are golden colored.

Honey bee genetics is a subject that makes my head hurt.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

While Kevin takes some advil, I will see if I can help. Lol. 

First off, yes... we have tested so many crosses that even my tylenol and advil bottles run empty. Lol. Sunkist Cordovan x primorsky (both directions of the cross) has been tested in 50 colonies using ii and isolated yards to study each generation... the results you will see mostly will depend on the number of primorsky hives that you run vs the number of Skc hives that you run, and the drone development within each... 

Keep in mind that skc has been selected for gentleness and and production to the point that they do not naturally develop nearly as much drone comb as your average Italians would... while on the other hand, primorsky are quite swarmy and thus naturally produce a much higher amount of drone comb than most other strains in the US... thus the primorsky will have a breeding advantage from the start, as there will be an average of twice as many primorsky drones than skc drones... build up timing is also a factor... if the primorsky are pure, then they will not begin building up until long after the skc have, however, in selecting for production, the skc has a much, much higher swarm capacity to reach than the primorsky does... so it may play into a matter of space and forage... if the skc reach swarm capacity (which some years, may Never happen) at a time that the primorsky have built up enough to produce their average level of drones, you may get some pretty high levels of primorsky in you next gen of skc... the skc should have a much more gradual effect on the primorsky due to the lower number of drones... 

That said, I think that you will find that you will not have any troubles with mites in your skc hives as they are very resistant already, and in most reports have proven to be just as resistant to varroa as the average primorsky in the US.

Now to get down to what you will end up with after these crosses occur... as you have probably noted, the skc are extremely gentle, slow and graceful on the comb, and brightly colored... these will be the first things to change... the new skc x primorsky progeny will be very testy, will run frantically on the combs and will be salt and peppered in color (meaning there will bee grey bees, black bees, and golden bees)... since this gen will still have a skc queen, only the workers will be effected... they may swarm a bit more readily, but it will be at the determination of the workers instead of the queen, so the swarms will be lite and in most cases the queen will not leave with them, but rather ne superceded afterwards... 

Which leads us to the second gen... this queen will most likely be half primorsky (depending on which egg the queen is developed from and which sperm fertilized that egg... assuming that she mates with more primorsky drones than skc drones, this will be a much "hotter" hive as ALL of her progeny will carry the primorsky genes that are in flux after the fusion... again, a salt and peppered coloration amongst the workers, but now the drones will appear to be either gold with black tips on their tails, or black with bronze colored bands... the queen will have lost her cordovan (peach thorax) coloration and may even have a black band or two or a long black tip to her tail... this colony should swarm more readily, and produce a smaller brood nest, but will be very productive as far as honey is concerned... 

The third gen is always a "to be continued" situation... there are too many variables to predetermine what will happen by that point, but I can say that they will continue to be mean... when using primorsky stock to add to a line such as the "Italian/Russian" line that we offer, Italians are the mothers, primorsky is the drones for the first mix, then half primorsky drones for the next gen, then all Italians from there on out until the sixth generation when we release the production queens... people that have purchased these queens can attest that they still possess a bit of attitude and that they are still as thrifty with shut down timing and resistance as the Russians, yet keep a slightly larger brood nest over winter and build up a bit earlier in the spring...

Your situation will most likely be the opposite, as you will be adding more and more primorsky and diluting the skc with each new queen.. 

You will certainly see some hybrid vigor and your honey pots may over flow for a few years, but ultimately, I just hope that you will continue to enjoy them once they get testy, and although we will always be around with good gentle queens for you, the primorsky genetics may become so thick that requeening becomes quite difficult... 

Either way, I will help you with any questions you may have along the way.

Hope this helps!


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

Thanks for your insightful posts Russell on this forum 

regards
Brad


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

WHAT IF?
1. You requeen every year with SKC. 
How many years will it take to dilute the Russian drone pool? (I know it is dependent on how many swarmed queens have been caught by neighboring beeks or how many may have taken up residence in "bee trees")
Hypothetically speaking a beekeeper with 10 hives with SKC and known neighbors in a 3 mile radius having 12 hives. An estimate if 5 colonys in bee trees in the said 3 mile radius how long will it take to greatly affect the genetics in the area?
I know your answer will only be an educated guess, but yours would be the most valuable to me. 
2. I graft from the SKC and try to set up my own DCA say with 3-4 drone nucs in a 1+ mile radius of my Apiary. ( how many frames of drones in the nucs would be necessary?) ( How many drone nucs would you reccommend under the above situation?)
3. I used another genetic of yours to requeen the Russians with, which, if any would dilute the Russian influence quicker or better.

HELP, I want rid of my Russians from Hades!!!!


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Aren't those the same as my "Russians from He_ _?" I'm determined to go "Postal" and burn out any beekeeper that brings Russians within 50 miles of my bees!


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

If I find out that they are close I wouldn't be responsible for my thoughts or possible actions.:lookout:


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## Kazzandra (Jul 7, 2010)

Russell, thanks so much. Your post was much more than I could have possibly asked for!! It's gotten me quite excited, truthfully. 

I knew that there are at least three forum members who hate Primorsky Russians, but I was hoping for this not to turn into a Russian hate thread. I actually do like my Russians. What concerns me the most about my Primorsky, as far as keeping them 'pure' is how few queens the Bee Lab started with. Ten years later, I can't help but think that they're either quite inbred, or have been open-mated and thus potentially diluted to where I might as well pick my own stock with which to dilute.

And yes, some of the aggressiveness, truthfully, could use to be bred out. I don't mind testy. I expect 'testy.' I am ripping through their homes, after all. I would just like for people to be able to watch the front porch a few feet away without a veil.

I have one hive that is just unpleasant to work with and very dark, and one that is lighter coloured, and, you bet-- butter sweet to work with. But that light hive also doesn't keep insects out-- I have to drench the inner cover with cinnamon to keep ear wigs and ants from hanging out up there. I was reading on Russell's forum that the SunKist were chasing, flipping, and stinging SHB, which seems very aggressive, but they are known for gentleness to the beekeeper! That seems very awesome.

It seems my favourite Primorsky traits would not disappear with this crossing (mite resistance, more careful control of resources and buildup, winter survival percentage) but perhaps a bit of the aggressiveness would go away. As a hobbyist, I want to show everyone my bees, but I don't dare when I have guard bees that don't warn, but just fly out and sting. D: This also makes me nervous being that my hives are in sight of a highway and in a tourist area. I wouldn't want anyone to get any bright ideas. 

And while I don't necessarily mind the bee suit, they are so shifty in attitude that I don't feel safe just popping the cover to look at their pollen patty status without a bee suit. Sheesh, girls. I know I wasn't such a great handler at first, but now I can inspect both hives without killing anyone, so you'd think they wouldn't be so mean about my entrance.

As long as the mix doesn't get meaner than the parent Primorsky, than I'm happy.

I think my plan will be to maintain my two Russian hives, split them in spring into three nucs, and queen the splits with SunKist. I know it will be difficult to get the Russians to accept the SunKist, but after reading Joseph's thread about foragers abandoning their job to attend to SunKist queens, I would say my best bet would be with SunKist. And VERY careful queen introduction, complete with LOTS of queen cell destruction. That way the next generation will be 3/2 Sunkist to Russians. And then I hope to maintain roughly that proportion of genetics. As a hobby beekeeper, keeping my Russians from producing too many of their own drones would be heart-breaking, but doable. I'd do it in the name of 'varroa control.'

They also sound like they might make a pretty cross, which is also a bonus!

Thanks again, Russell, and Kevin, for getting a headache on my behalf. XD


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

Ha ha ha thats just the opposite of me Kazzandra. I want my bees and hives to be guard bees on the property. The Russian hives I had ( not the official ones ) didnt ever put up much honey , proplised everything together and were semi nasty. My highest total was 16 stings from 1 hive in one season. A winter storm came along and blew apart my 3 hives, 2 yrs ago. 2x hives were my Itlaian mutts , 1 was the Russians . I miss my mutts. 

Trying a carni queen now


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Kazzandra, 
I think that you are reading something into what Dr. Russell posted. He was 1 of the people that warned me about the Russians. He in no way advocates keeping Russians, even to try and breed from. He himself has, but under controlled conditions. If I remember right this is your first year with the Russians. You haven't experienced what is to come. Also I had 2 hives from Ray Revis, they were orange and larger queens. Somewhat calmer, but not very protective or productive. Those are the only 2 hives that I didn't have to requeen. Their virgin swarm queens made it back to the hive. The rest of the black Russians did not. I tried a Moonbeam that they promptly killed. I tried a Hardeman Russian Hybrid. Which they killed. Then one by one they accepted the Russian hybrids from Hardemans. I have found them to be not very productive. Except in the fall. Not just because of the uproar I had in the hives all spring, they didn't produce after they were queenright. I've found that they will fill the entire and I mean entire brood nest full of honey in the fall, leaving no room for the queen to lay. I didn't think they would make it thru the winter but they wintered well and I had to extract honey this spring. Not my idea of how to harvest a honey crop. Russell says that they still have the Primorsky instinct to prepare for a Primorsky winter, which is very cold and long. I hope Dr. Russell repost what I've told you, but in case he doesn't you can search his posts and find them. Good luck, you will need it!


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## sevenmmm (Mar 5, 2011)

valleyman, you should have provided another hive box? Hey, you have already posted "your" Russians were fine when you got them. The problem could well be the feral bees in your area that bred your new queens.

Also, the Russians are reported to build slow, and come on fast in the fall. Just as you have reported. 

There are so many variables that just maybe they are not good for you and your area. Fine.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I think the greatest misconception here is the fact that so many people were sold on using primorsky lines in order to go treatment free/natural... as I have stated many times, they are simply not acclimated to any environment that could be found in the US, thus they are in a state of flux... this causes some serious confusion amongst people that are keeping them and people that are considering keeping them... they need to be managed differently than other strains, and due to there state of flux, those management practices will need to be altered each year and sometimes each generation... to truly keep bees naturally, you need to be able to set up a hive and walk away... they should be able to survive and thrive with no intervention until you get ready to return... to reach that point, they must first become acclimated to the area and the forage... primorsky produce well during the first season because they are rushing to prepare for a long and fridged winter that never seems to come, and they are not accustomed to the amount of available forage that they find here in the US... after that first season, they seem to realise that everything is out of wack and the flux intensifies greatly... swarming increases, production drops, and their colony numbers dwindle as they are not expecting to have to work nearly as hard, and they expect to be able to throw swarms (reproduce) multiple times per season because they feel like its an easy environment to get started in... but this is where the average bee keeper runs into trouble... not knowing what the bees are up to, they anticipate the same type of production as the prior season, and do not expect to have to work so hard at swarm prevention... they also do not know that the primorsky will get so hot after each swarm and to add insult to injury, they do not know that they are producing so many small swarms and multiplying their drone production with every one... the do carry a high level of vsh traits, but their greatest resistance against varroa is the multiple breaks in their brood cycles due to the swarming... where shb are present their small populations and heavy pollen and honey stores throughout the chamber make them an irresistible target... and finally, their habit of honey logging the brood chamber adds to the troubles that the inexperienced bee keeper will face as they will take a much longer time building up in spring because of it, and the longer shutdown period during winter causes them to miss the early flows... 

All of that being said, they are not bad bees, but need such special management and such an in-depth understanding, that make them a extreme challenge for new bee keepers as well as large scale production operations... the term "Russians" is easy to say, but in truth, these bees are not used in Russian operations, so "primorsky" is a better title for them since they originated from stock that was found in the primorsky region... this region is the boundary where Cerana and Mellifera meet, thus allowing the bees of that region to encounter varroa that coexist with Cerana... in a search for bees that would possess high levels of mite resistances, these bees were used by the usda to study breeding and trait transfer rates... these traits are indeed effective against varroa, but not at the expense of losing the acclimation of the bees in the US that have been selected for production, gentleness, and early build up for even longer than the Millifera have even been in the primorsky region... ALL bees are developing resistances to varroa, it is not a trait that has to be bred in from other strains... 

Please do not confuse this post with "Russian bashing", I love bees of all types, but I feel that the only way to truly help bee keepers (and their bees) to be successful, is to make sure that they are informed and not mislead by hype or government operations that are seeking more funding... 

I hope that those who read this can take away enough knowledge from it to better understand what their bees are doing, and thus be better prepared to manage them correctly as they change.

Guess I should add, that those who have experienced great losses with primorsky usually not only lose the money and the hard work that they have invested, but most also feel used and cheated... this is why they protest so adamantly... I understand their disgust, a few lost hundreds of hives following misstatements by officials that were pushing the ideas of "silver bullets" instead of proper health and management... it just makes you feel like dirt when you get swindled, and gnashed teeth usually come with that feeling... but we all need to keep in mind that no matter what type of bees we have/prefer, we are all bee keepers, and we HAVE to work together to protect OUR industry from those that would limit our freedoms and control our genetics... 

Hope this helps.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

But I am merely trying to report my experiences. I was told what it would be like and didn't listen because they sounded so good. If I help someone not go thru what me and others have, then I will have accomplished my goal. I gave my Russians plenty of boxes in the spring, 2 supers each around mid march. I watched occasionally for need for more. The feral bees in my area were gentle before I introduced the bees from Hades. I dare to say I doubt that they are gentle now.


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## sevenmmm (Mar 5, 2011)

I am interested on what you are posting concerning "Russians", but enough is enough already. If you don't like reading my concerns then we can have a good old emotional internet experience expressing our displeasure with each other.


I am not interested in honey production, have a little interest in mite resistance, but am very interested in overwintering bees above 45th parallel north.

I do own 3 hives of these bees - as well as trying other strains - and if I have to then will keep them at my cedar swamp 40 until they figure out who they are, die out, or they abscond to the wild. My choice.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Please stay on topic folks!


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## Kazzandra (Jul 7, 2010)

I understand what valleyman and sevenmmm have said-- I agree with both. I appreciate Russell's statements concerning Primorskys as well.



valleyman said:


> Also I had 2 hives from Ray Revis, they were orange and larger queens. Somewhat calmer, but not very protective or productive. Those are the only 2 hives that I didn't have to requeen. ... I've found that they will fill the entire and I mean entire brood nest full of honey in the fall, leaving no room for the queen to lay. I didn't think they would make it thru the winter but they wintered well and I had to extract honey this spring. Not my idea of how to harvest a honey crop.


I've noticed this. Orange and large queen-- she's calm, not protective, and not productive. And yes, they have few bees because the brood boxes are made of honey.
This is a habit I was not prepared for-- luckily I read up and stopped feeding them when I noticed frame after frame of honey in the brood chambers. 



sevenmmm said:


> I am not interested in honey production, have a little interest in mite resistance, but am very interested in overwintering bees above 45th parallel north..


They are good bees for some-- especially those with Primorksy like winters-- and I agree that they have been over-hyped as a fix-it for a problem that good beekeeping can keep under control. I'm in there every week doing sugar/peppermint drenches to control mites-- is it a wonder my mite counts are so low? XD



rrussell6870 said:


> primorsky produce well during the first season because they are rushing to prepare for a long and fridged winter that never seems to come, and they are not accustomed to the amount of available forage that they find here in the US... after that first season, they seem to realise that everything is out of wack and the flux intensifies greatly... swarming increases, production drops, and their colony numbers dwindle as they are not expecting to have to work nearly as hard, and they expect to be able to throw swarms (reproduce) multiple times per season because they feel like its an easy environment to get started in... but this is where the average bee keeper runs into trouble... not knowing what the bees are up to, they anticipate the same type of production as the prior season, and do not expect to have to work so hard at swarm prevention... they also do not know that the primorsky will get so hot after each swarm and to add insult to injury, they do not know that they are producing so many small swarms and multiplying their drone production with every one... the do carry a high level of vsh traits
> 
> ...
> 
> Please do not confuse this post with "Russian bashing", I love bees of all types, but I feel that the only way to truly help bee keepers (and their bees) to be successful, is to make sure that they are informed and not mislead by hype or government operations that are seeking more funding...


I will try to be ready for those traits, and half of that preparedness will be with new genetics to help them find their place, as I look for the optimal cross for my area and style of beekeeping. I will cull (or nature will cull) anything that isn't good for this area. We have mountain winters with lots of wind-- we're shut down from October-May on the worst of years, or December-April on the best of years. So some Primorsky traits will be appreciated. 

The SunKist traits sound like they would be great additions to temper some of the extremes and get closer to a mix for my area, and they also are great for me as a beekeeper. And being ready for the traits that Dr. Russell described in my second year of beekeeping is one of the reasons I was thinking about a cross. Some people may not mind those traits-- that's fine. It's just they're not for my style of beekeeping, nor for my area. Yes, I can only imagine the tourists gathered around the trees by the road, taking pictures of my swarms, while angry bees lurk in boxes fifty feet away. Sounds awesome.

Sheesh-- I don't know why everyone got so personal about it. You have what you picked-- and no one's approval or disapproval of what you have can change that. But I think that being angry when beekeepers keep Russians in your area is an ulcer waiting to happen. It would be better to go to your local beekeeping meetings and tell newbees your experience with Primorskys, and shed some light on why they are not ideal for newbees/ your area/ whatever you happen to believe.

Meanwhile, I'm happy with my Primorksys, and I'll be happy with my Sunkist, too.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Kazzandra,
What I understand about your experience with the Russians is they are the only bees you have kept. If you haven't experienced other genetics then you would not understand others frustation with them. Without figuring up how long I've kept bees I Have tried 3 differient times with the first 2 not having enough time to keep them right. I have had Italian mostly, Mn. hygenic, Russian hybrids, and now the pure Russians. The Italians are bad about robbing out their somewhat weaker neighbor, and winter in a larger cluster, which make them harder to get thru the winter. But I've worked the hives many times without smoke (always had it lit and ready). You won't do it with The Russians. I would rather feed a little more in the fall and watch thru the winter and not have WW III when working the hives. Plus with the others they are not running all over the hive, and festooning on the bottom nearly as bad as the Russians. They will build up quicker in the spring, and produce much more honey. This is all from experience. But I am in the same boat you are. How to get rid of them? The only sure way to get them gone is what Ted said, milk jug with gas, and a match. Otherwise , you have read Dr. Russell's post that it takes several generations of aggressive bees to get rid of the problems that they have in keeping them. In my opinion, and it is the avenue that I will take is to requeen with Russell's Sunkist Cordovans. I think that they are just the opposite as far a temperment. Hoping that helps calm them quicker. I probably am going to requeen every fall for a couple of years in hopes I am flooding my area with the Sunkist genetics. In my area there are for sure "bee trees" or colonys in other cavities that I don't know about. I know of 12 hives being kept within a 2 mile radius of me, you can be sure that I have given them Russian genetics thru my drones and swarms, thereby making it harder for me to change the genetic makeup in my area. I am very sorry that I ever listened to the USDA and their hype about the bees from Hades. It is going to cost lots of money and problems to solve the problems I've created for me and my neighbors. If you have any other ideas I would like to hear them. I know that you are a first year beekeeper but I assure I will anilyze what you say.

sevenmm, please rest assured, I am not posting this redundantly to irratate you, I apoligize for my part in the fiasco that transpired yesterday, but I would never tell you or anyone to shut up on here, which is essentially what you told me twice. With this post I am tryhing to help Kazzandra. I was going to pm her but she has pms blocked or at least I don't have the oprion. Please don't respond to this because I will only ignore it. Good Luck to all three of us we are going to need it.


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## queenking (Oct 24, 2007)

can some one post the types of queens and the pics of them. i have a few solide black queens. thew are puting on honey left and right and also building up pretty fast.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

There are other black genetics other than Russian, Carniolans, and the German black bee are the first that comes to mind. In fact some of the pure Russians are orange like the Italians. Go figure?


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## Kazzandra (Jul 7, 2010)

valleyman said:


> . But I've worked the hives many times without smoke (always had it lit and ready). You won't do it with The Russians.


LOL. My sister believes that if you are gentle enough, you don't need protection. The last time she went to see the bees with me was the first day both hives were testy. It was late and I think that a dog had been though, because my lighter hive has not acted like that since. Well, she blamed their attitude on me bee shaking the floats and said that it was not a proper thing to do. 

So today I was going to go feed my black busting hive being that I supered them with checkerboarded foundations, and I picked up my bee suit. She nagged me and so I said, "You go down there without a veil and put in this sugar syrup. I'll watch from a distance with the camera. And liquid benadryl."

We got down there and she snuck around back and opened the cover. Out they fly into her hair and she has to go running. No one stung her. But she was tenacious-- she managed to get that feed into that top feeder, but not without the aid of the liquid smoke I always keep down there.  And she only had to go running three times to get half a gallon of feed in there!

She was nine enough to retract her postulation that shaking the floats had made the hives angry that night. :lpf:



valleyman said:


> festooning on the bottom nearly as bad as the Russians.


Now that trait I LIKE! They fill out a box of foundationless with starter strips beautifully!





valleyman said:


> requeen with Russell's Sunkist Cordovans. I think that they are just the opposite as far a temperment. Hoping that helps calm them quicker. I probably am going to requeen every fall for a couple of years in hopes I am flooding my area with the Sunkist genetics.


Well, I hope this thread helped you decide that for sure. I think, like I said before, I will make splits with them and control my drone population. I think your plan sounds best for getting rid of as many Russian traits as possible. Just ruthlessly control your brood in your Russians, make them hopelessly queenless, and then introduce and keep her in some sort of cage in which she can start laying for at least a week.

Wow. I couldn't imagine having feral colonies around. But it is a blessing and a curse, I see.



valleyman said:


> With this post I am tryhing to help Kazzandra. I was going to pm her but she has pms blocked or at least I don't have the oprion.


 Sorry about that-- I had PMs on for friends only. Changed that. Thanks for the advice and help. I don't mind my Russians as they are, but I do so want to avoid the second year blow-out of swarms and potentially meaner second generation queens. Because I would rather get a tooth pulled than attempt to get anything else from my original supplier-- he's a nice guy, but he's impossible to reach ANYTIME of the year. inch:

So yeah-- I'm going through with this next year. I'll perform necromancy on this thread next spring and keep everyone updated on my results.


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## SERGE (Sep 14, 2010)

Dr. Russell, I am curious, what do you think a cross between a New World Carniolan and a pure Russian might be like?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Good comb builders in cooler climates, but very finicky about their nest size and shut-down... late start building up, with a fast boom and you must do something to open the chamber up while they are expanding (which can be quite quick), or they will swarm and start all over... the temperament can be a quite nasty, but the nests are clean and resistance levels are good... they usually are runny on the combs with a lot of chattering and respond quickly to defend their nests... getting them to store honey overhead is tough, as they tend to backfill well before the end of the flow... overall, an interesting bee, that is good at building natural comb in cool places or very early spring in the south... but needs special attention to the brood chamber to keep them from swarming in order to get other uses out of them...

One other thing that I can note is that they tend to prefer shady environments as opposed to sun or even partial sun, and they tend to focus their foraging efforts more on tall trees than ground cover plants... hope this helps.


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## sevenmmm (Mar 5, 2011)

valleyman said:


> Kazzandra,
> Russell says that they still have the Primorsky instinct to prepare for a Primorsky winter, which is very cold and long.




Here is an excerpt to the link below:


*Primorsky krai is located in the south of the Far East, in the south-eastern part of the Russian Federation. It is bordered in the north by Khabarovsk krai, in the south by China, in the south-west by Korea and is washed by Japan Sea in the south and east.
The climate of Primorye region is of moderate monsoon type. Winters are dry (humid) and cold with sunny weather. Springs are long, cool, with often temperature changes. Summers are warm and humid, with maximum of precipitation. Autumns as a rule are warm and dry. The main peculiarity - lots of precipitation and fog in summer.
Summers are the periods of typhoons, these tropical cyclones come to Primorye krai every year, sometimes they bring a lot of harm. Average temperature in July is 17 - 26 degs C above zero. Average temperature in January - 8-18 degs C below zero.
Annual precipitation falling mainly in summer, especially during typhoons, is about 600-900 mm. Vegetation period lasts from 120-130 days in the North to 160-200 days in the South.
The area is the most southerly of the Russian Far Eastern territories in taiga zone and the most northerly in sub-tropic zone. This fact determines rich flora and fauna, landscape variety, warm sea in the south, curing water springs and thus ensures tourism development in the region.*

http://russiatrek.org/primorye-krai


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## SERGE (Sep 14, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> Good comb builders in cooler climates,... hope this helps.


Yes, very interesting. Thank you.


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## SERGE (Sep 14, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> Sunkist Cordovan x primorsky (both directions of the cross) has been tested in 50 colonies using ii and isolated yards to study each generation...


Interesting. Thank you.
Dr. Russell, the Italian/Russian Hybrids (6th Gen) that you sell, is that what they are, a SunKist x Primorsky cross?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Rick, summer is of course the warmest period in the area where primorsky bees are found with highs usually only reaching 67 f... this period is only about 28 days long and is filled with terrible storms that prevent much foraging... the storms begin in the later half of the spring which is about 40 days long and much colder than the summer... the falls are about 55 days long and are very windy and dry allowing a short flow immediately following the storms, then a harsh dearth for the remainder... winter averages about -15 f and lasts 240 days with virtually no forage available...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Serge, our Italian/Russian hybrids are a cross of our three banded Italian and primorsky... they do not include Sunkists. The Sunkist x Russian crosses were deemed to be too unpredictable to be produced for the market, at least until the primorsky have truly acclimated to the US environments... as the Sunkist is an example of the more productive traits of several strains, the Russians would need to be allowed the time to adjust before we can isolate their final best qualities to attempt to isolate those into a cross. Hope that makes sense.


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## sevenmmm (Mar 5, 2011)

Alright. I'll try to dig that information up then.


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## SERGE (Sep 14, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> Rick, summer is of course the warmest period in the area where primorsky bees are found with highs usually only reaching 67 f... this period is only about 28 days long and is filled with terrible storms that prevent much foraging... the storms begin in the later half of the spring which is about 40 days long and much colder than the summer... the falls are about 55 days long and are very windy and dry allowing a short flow immediately following the storms, then a harsh dearth for the remainder... winter averages about -15 f and lasts 240 days with virtually no forage available...


Dr. Russell, do you think that with that kind of weather, they are probably acclimated to mating at lower temperatures? Any experience with mating the Primorsky or other bees at lower temps?


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> ... the do carry a high level of vsh traits, but their greatest resistance against varroa is the multiple breaks in their brood cycles due to the swarming...


I think this statement by Dr. Russell needs to be taken to heart by those who seek Russian bees to protect them from varroa mites. If you incorporate management practices to reduce swarming you will increase mite loads and remove the Russians main defense against varroa.

It takes more than just genetics to combat varroa. There are genetics out there that have other desired traits beyond varroa resistance.

Tom (recovering beekeeper of Russian genetics)


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Tom,
I resemble that remark about being a recovering Russian beekeeper.

I thought some might be interested in my progress in installing my SKC queens into what would have been Russian hybrid genetics, that were swarming and SS like they were still pure. After having surgery on 8-22 I am just now able to check them. I have been thru 6 of my nine hives. I finished requeening around the middle of August and hadn't seen them since. I am VERY pleased to report that I have not found any supercedures yet, and I want everyone to know that the demeanor of the hives has changed greatly. I can tell by the # of SKC bees in the hive how they are going to be. The hives with mostly SKC bees are a pleasure to open and go thru. No running nervously all over the frames. No clumping, or festooning. Queens are easy to find and are not running and hiding. Brood, larvae, and eggs patterns are great. The hives that still have a good concentration of Russians are already very civilized. WOW, it's great to be keeping civilized bees!!!!!!!!


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

SERGE said:


> Dr. Russell, do you think that with that kind of weather, they are probably acclimated to mating at lower temperatures? Any experience with mating the Primorsky or other bees at lower temps?


We start mating queens very early in the season, so early that temps can reach freezing every now and then... that said, we do cull some queens out of those early batches that do not get successfully mated, and we do have nuc losses due to snap freezes... but we have been selecting for drone tolerance for several decades as a means of providing drones all winter in order to have drones available for early mating to meet the needs of pollenaters... 

So yes, many of our strains are adapted to be able to mate well in cooler temps as well as begin foraging and building up earlier than others... the primorsky are late bloomers, sometimes not really building up until early May even in the south where most are built up in late Feb... they are however, adapted to the lower average temps and do forage in the colder days... the conflict of their acclimation is between the timing of when spring will start, when winter will come, and when the flows begin... as they expect spring to come late, they do not build up until late.... as they expect winter to come early, they work very hard and fast to store food to get them through... as they expect two short bursts of flows (late spring and mid fall), they build only build up to coordinate with those periods... 

One day they will figure out their new environment and stop following the timing that they are accustomed to, but the question is... when they become accustomed to our environments, what will they be like? Will they continue to be productive if they realise that they do not have to store so much in such a short time? Will they continue to swarm repeatedly once they realize that they do not have a stormy summer and brief spring to contend with? And will they start building up earlier and keeping larger populations when they realise that there are earlier flows and that flows can extend throughout much of the season?

If they do level out to be a productive strain, stop swarming excessively, and begin to keep higher populations throughout our flows, then the next question is... will they keep their acclimation to colder temps which could prove useful to some US regions?

I believe that they will be just like any other bee once they have acclimated to their environment... those that acclimate to colder regions will be less effected by the cold, and those that acclimate to warmer regions will build up earlier... 

There are lineages within every strain of bee that are accustomed to the different climates in which they have spent decades living in... we breed them separately here in the south so that we can produce them as early as possible, but the ones that come from the north, go to the north, and the ones that come from the south go to the south... the same is true for high desert regions and the other various climates of the US... I feel that Russians will need that same type of selective development as they become more accustomed to whatever US climate they are raised in...

Selecting for drone tolerance over winter and early spring/late fall activity can help to keep any strain active during colder times of the year.

Hope this helps.


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## SERGE (Sep 14, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> We start mating queens very early in the season, so early that temps can reach freezing every now and then... that said, we do cull some queens out of those early batches that do not get successfully mated, and we do have nuc losses due to snap freezes... but we have been selecting for drone tolerance for several decades as a means of providing drones all winter in order to have drones available for early mating to meet the needs of pollenaters...Hope this helps.


Yes, Thank you.
At what low day temps in early spring, would you say, can you already get successful mating in your mating program?


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## Kazzandra (Jul 7, 2010)

valleyman said:


> Tom,
> I am VERY pleased to report that I have not found any supercedures yet, and I want everyone to know that the demeanor of the hives has changed greatly. I can tell by the # of SKC bees in the hive how they are going to be. The hives with mostly SKC bees are a pleasure to open and go thru. No running nervously all over the frames. No clumping, or festooning. Queens are easy to find and are not running and hiding. Brood, larvae, and eggs patterns are great. The hives that still have a good concentration of Russians are already very civilized. WOW, it's great to be keeping civilized bees!!!!!!!!


Wow, valleyman, that's great! I'm so glad for you! I'm glad that those Russians were "saved," too, and that you didn't do what some others did and just kill them. They're not great bees for our conditions, but that doesn't mean they deserve to be slaughtered. Also, that gives me hope for installing SKCs in my splits next year. Going to take all the precautions I can, of course! 

Also, I agree that Russians suck at varroa control if you keep them from swarming. I never hit the threshold at which it's critical to treat, but I'm very disappointed to be treating at all. I expected no more than ten mites a day in late summer at full colony population-- I would say that's resistant. Instead, I had seventy or so over three days right before I decided to treat with thymol. This was my major reason for going with Russians-- that and overwintering. But overwintering with all those mites would be tricky.

Moving on to hopefully greener pastures next year. Going to try some SKCs and Carnies from Dr. Russell for my splits and packages. All of that excess comb that my Russians drew should be great for that! Should get pretty bees and I look forward to letting their daughters open mate and seeing what I get in my mating nucs.


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## SERGE (Sep 14, 2010)

Kazzandra said:


> Instead, I had seventy or so over three days right before I decided to treat with thymol. This was my major reason for going with Russians-- that and overwintering. But overwintering with all those mites would be tricky.QUOTE]
> 
> Kazzandra, how do you monitor for mite load with your hives?


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## SERGE (Sep 14, 2010)

Yes, thank you.
Dr. Russell, with strains that are adapted to be able to mate in cooler temps, with enough drones being in the area, how low of day temps and how early in the season would you say this can happen?
-Thank you so much
-Serge


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## beeG (Jun 18, 2011)

valleyman said:


> But I am merely trying to report my experiences. I was told what it would be like and didn't listen because they sounded so good. If I help someone not go thru what me and others have, then I will have accomplished my goal. I gave my Russians plenty of boxes in the spring, 2 supers each around mid march. I watched occasionally for need for more. The feral bees in my area were gentle before I introduced the bees from Hades. I dare to say I doubt that they are gentle now.


Well valleyman,

I understand you are angry. But from my vantage point, I can see how your aggressive attacks on the Russian race bees. Is being done with little regard for those who work well with them, and are working hard to preserve them, and study them. 
I liked Dr Russell's outlook on this. Very professional, informative, and he got right to the point. As a new bee keeper When I was trying to determine the race I wanted. Through Internet searches. I thought I wanted the Russians. But I ended up with the Minn Hyg . I discovered after I paid for my Minn Hyg I would have been able to get Russians from the same source. I was a bit taken back. But I am so glad after reading Dr Russell's explanation of them , that I got the minn hyg instead. From reading your complaints, I may have just pegged you as an angry person, and not taken your post seriously being that there was no real explanation behind your post, and you just sound angry, and vengeful. Maybe you should try and yield some of that anger back. Being new you may alienate the more experienced bee keepers, who may not want to help you when asked .For fear of such long ,and vindictive threads.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

SERGE said:


> how low of day temps and how early in the season would you say this can happen?


High 40's is ok so long as there is some radiant sunshine to warm the bees and the hives and not a chilling wind... Januarys and early Februarys are wet, and then the March winds come in and dry us up with constant southwesterly gusts... the trick is getting good matings in between the season changes from early Feb to early March... the bees have to be adaptive and the crews have to be consistent to make it work... these queens are for packages mostly... by mid April here the weather is usually settling down... but that isn't always the case of course... this past spring is a testament to that... we had real troubles fighting the rain, winds, freezes, and tornadoes, all while we had tons of new customers breathing down our necks... we have spread out our operation even further this season in order to avoid those type of pitfalls in the future... 

Depending on how many queens you are looking to produce extra early, I can give you a solution that works well... but the first step to being able to accomplish it is to fine tune you wintering abilities... if you can get to the point where you are able to winter three frame nucs in threeway deeps or mediums, then I can help you set up a program that will allow you to over winter a nice batch of young queens for extra early use and not hurt the nucs so they can be used as mating nucs again, then used to stock 5 frame nucs or used to create new hives for your own operation...


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## SERGE (Sep 14, 2010)

Very interesting. Thank you.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Dr. Russell, is there a book or several that you might recommend that would elaborate on the technique/s that you alluded to? I find this whole discussion fascinating and need some winter reading anyway. Thanks..


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Honestly, I wouldn't know. Lol. I personally have not read the bee keeping books that are out there. I have read studies and personal journals/notes from just about all of the bee keeping greats, but have always had such a wonderful opportunity to watch, listen to, and work directly with the most successful guys of our time, that I could never bring myself to take the time away from that to read the books. Lol. 

I was blessed enough to have the option of sitting under a tree reading, or have coffee with Walter and Ida Kelley, Fred Rossman, Don Strachan, Bob Koehnen, etc... before heading off to the bee yards to work with them...

My early childhood was spent playing in the bee yards while my father worked hives... I was the "bee boy" to all of those now huge names in bee keeping... I would carry stock and cell bar frames the cell builders where my father and Mr Kelley were to my mother and Mrs Ida in the grafting room when I was very small... I cleaned the hundreds of white perch that were caught during the visits from and to all of these people, and I would fall asleep listening to them talk bees in the evenings (which usually would drag on well into the night. Lol)... ever since I was able to lift a super, I have worked along side these people in the hives... so my mind has been a sponge to their thoughts, realisations, and practices... I was truly raised in and by bee keeping... so when I had to read certain books for school, those were the only times that I would open them... always got a little extra credit for actually having the handwriten notes from the author that lead to what was published in the books too. ;-)

Reg Wilbanks has spent many years working out systems to keep large numbers of queens over winter to have available earlier in the spring so that he didn't have to push resources to develop them as early as the market desired... his latest method is a winter long banking system made up of indoor hives that are fed constantly, never allowed to cluster by means of indoor temp control, and kept stocked by shaking sacrificial hives... my method is somewhat closer to Michael Palmers overwintering nucs above strong colonies... only I do not have to set them on colonies all the time and I use threeway deeps stacked on top of one another or just set up with a threeway medium or shallow on top with full length division boards so the upper frames act as supers for stores in each compartment...100 deeps can carry 300 mated queens through winter...1,000 deeps can carry 3,000 queens... if you use the mediums and shallows stacked above the deeps in a separated fashion like we do at times, a deep and two supers can carry 9 queens through winter... and the greatest thing about the system is that you come into spring with already stocked nucs that can be used for mating... so your resources do not have to be pressured again and again unless you have to stock as many mini nucs as we do of course. Lol..


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## SERGE (Sep 14, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> my method is somewhat closer to Michael Palmers overwintering nucs above strong colonies... only I do not have to set them on colonies all the time and I use threeway deeps stacked on top of one another or just set up with a threeway medium or shallow on top with full length division boards so the upper frames act as supers for stores in each compartment...


Dr. Russell, This is very interesting. Two winters ago, I overwintered a smaller colony very successfully over a stronger one separated with a wire mesh division board. 
With the divided stackable box method of overwintering queens, what kind of lateral box division do you find effective? Is it a wire mesh board style? What kind of moisture control do you recommend for the moisture going up from the stronger colonies, aspecially if it's a very strong colony on the bottom that creates lots of moisture?
Thanks
Serge


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

SERGE said:


> With the divided stackable box method of overwintering queens, what kind of lateral box division do you find effective? Is it a wire mesh board style? What kind of moisture control do you recommend for the moisture going up from the stronger colonies, aspecially if it's a very strong colony on the bottom that creates lots of moisture?


For the vertical division boards, compressed cardboard (aka hardboard) 1/4" thick works fine... 

For the lateral divisions, a wood-bound queen excluder with aluminum door screen attached firmly to cover each side works well... 
http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell15002.jpg
http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b404/RussellApiaries/cell15001.jpg

For ventilation to control condensation, there are screened vents on the rear of each compartment, and all of the hives are tipped forward on a nice incline to direct and condensation that may form to travel forward and down the inner wall and exit through the front... as with most commercial operations, inner covers are an expense and a hassle for us, so during the heat of mid spring - late summer, we run migratory tops and switch to metal covered telescope tops in fall to prevent leaks during our wet winters... 

We do not have to dig our hives out of the snow each spring, so we do not need to wrap hives, and we have half inch holes here and there in many, many hive bodies... this of course allows a little more air flow which helps to balance the moisture levels and reduce condensation build up above the bees... instead, it builds up mainly along the sides were the cold air is coming in, as the warm air is going out...

Michael Palmer would probably be better suited to advise you on moisture control methods in areas that get more annual snow fall or require wrapping...

Hope this helps.


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