# AZ / Warre Variant



## Apiary Barn (Jun 21, 2021)

I've been slowly conceptualizing and trying to design a hive that is AZ based, with essentially 4 levels. Room for potentially 2 brood, 2 honey supers.

A recent idea I had, was to incorporate the Warre design and have the brood boxes located at the top of this 4 level AZ hive. The honey 'supers' will then be in the lower levels.

The question I hope people can weigh in on here, is will there be any issues with the bees traversing two unoccupied honey 'supers' in the lower levels, or potentially three levels if the colony size has yet to need the 2nd brood level. Should theses lower levels truly be empty? Or should they have frames parked there on the reserve.

I saw/read somewhere about the tree based colonies in Eastern Europe and the centuries old practice of cutting into a large established living tree, carving out part of the core, and installing hives. The bees only had a lower entrance so in summary they were required to traverse the full length of the hollowed out cavity to enter/leave. I think this proves the bees are capable of this, but I would like others opinions on it. Or is this something one must simply build it, try it, and see how it works?

*10 frame deep Langstroth based, use of a queen excluder, no top entrance, only bottom entrance, AZ hives are to be located in a barn


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Apiary Barn said:


> A recent idea I had, was to* incorporate the Warre design and have the brood boxes located at the top of this 4 level AZ hive. The honey 'supers' will then be in the lower levels.*
> [...]
> 10 frame deep Langstroth based, *use of a queen excluder*, no top entrance, only bottom entrance,


You don't seem to have grasped the underlying principle of the Warre Beehive. The brood-nest is only* initially* located at the top. As the bees work their way downwards they create their brood-nest further and further down the stack, and as that brood emerges, the empty cells left behind are then used to store honey. So - brood is* always* located towards the bottom of the combs, with honey at the top.
Come winter, the direction of travel is reversed, with the cluster working it's way upwards from the bottom, consuming stores as they go, until they arrive somewhere near the top, when the cycle is repeated the following Spring.

A Queen excluder which keeps the brood-nest at the top and the stores at the bottom ? With a QX in that position, what would happen to the drones ? What would happen when the colony eventually wanted to supersede ? That's a guaranteed way of killing a colony.
LJ


----------



## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Apiary Barn said:


> 10 frame deep Langstroth based, use of a queen excluder, no top entrance, only bottom entrance, AZ hives are to be located in a barn


I don't know why you use an excluder. If it confines brood at the wrong time, you get a swarm. People who use excluders for long periods have to know stuff about the flow and shape of the brood nest. I don't know why you don't use a top entrance.

Your questions make no sense. If honey supers are on the bottom, don't move them to the top and vice versa. Always keep space in the brood nest during swarm season. You could take a brood frame, put it in the honey super, and replace it with undrawn or empty.
People say entrance location affects honey location. thread


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

I think you need to do a bit more research.
As LJ stated the honey is stored above the brood nest.

have a look at this link, something along this line may be where your design ends up.








Langstroth Slovenian AZ Beehive 20-frames 2 Story With 1 - Etsy


This Beekeeping item by Maisterdan has 170 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from Slovenia. Listed on Sep 3, 2022




www.etsy.com





GG


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

My word, there's a lot of ignorance about ...

I've just been looking for a diagram of an Alberti Hive to post, and I came across a website which said that the A-Z Hive was invented by a guy named Alberti Žnideršic. What a howler ... !

The A-Z Hive was developed from the Alberti Hive by a guy named Anton Žnideršic, hence the hive's name Alberti-Žnideršic (with a hyphen). 

The main difference between the Alberti Hive and the A-Z Hive is that the Alberti Hive has it's hanging frames 'broadside-on' to the access doors at the rear, so that in order to remove one particular frame, it then becomes necessary to remove all those frames in front of it ("in front" that is, when seen from the beekeeper's position).

What Anton Žnideršic did was to rotate those frames through 90 degrees so that they were then 'end-on' to the beekeeper, and thus more easily accessible - but - this required changing from hanging frames to standing frames: frames which stand upon steel support rods, and frames which then also require a more complex form of positioning to ensure accurate spacing.

Those then are the initial challenges facing anyone intent upon installing Langstroth-style hanging-frames into an A-Z style beehive. GG's link is one solution.
'best
LJ


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Ok - here's a photo of an Alberti Hive:










There would be no problem running that sort of hive 4 frames high with a bottom entrance, and a QX in the middle (if you really *must*), providing the brood is at the bottom with stores above the QX ... it would also be an easy build, but awkward to operate. You'd need to make some tools for fishing-out the frames, and you may need to grease those slots to keep them from being glued-up.

The Alberti Hive is no longer popular ... and there are good reasons for that. 
'best,
LJ


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

little_john said:


> Ok - here's a photo of an Alberti Hive:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LJ
I was thinking of using this exact design for some wall hives I have 1/2 built. So getting the frames out is the major issue, any other you can think of? Mine is a 6 or 7 frame unit, accentually to over winter NUCs in for spring replacements. I was thinking one could swing the frame out from the bottom to break it loose. 

basically the side is a 12 inch board, with rails nailed on for frame rests.
I planed to put the NUC in there in Aug, then take it out in spring to use in dead outs.

thanks
GG


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hi GG - it appears that the major issue was always getting the frames out - and the guys used to use pliers for that task:



















I would guess a pair of plumbers 'grips' could do that job ok - although you might want to make up something a tad more purpose-made. Gripping the frame in the top corners as shown must be favourite. 

Other than that, the only other negative I can see is possible gluing-up of the slides - but petroleum jelly should sort that out if it should ever become a problem.
'best
LJ


----------



## Apiary Barn (Jun 21, 2021)

Thank you all for the feedback and comments. 

Okay, let's toss out the Queen Excluder. All the bees now have full reign over 4 levels, whether the human access is AZ style or Alberti Hive.

My big (novice) question, can/should the bees have full access to all 4 levels (i.e. an overwintered nuc is inserted into a full 4 level box)? My understanding is they will opt to have their brood in the top most level and expand downward as demand for brood laying increases, and nectar flow prompts honey stores. As a colony is larger, 'full force' the top two levels would be mix of brood / pollen stores from their defacto behavior, and the bottom two levels would be honey. 

During winter, does the cluster stay over the top two levels entirely, or as I believe some one above alluded to, does the cluster work its way down to the honey stores during the winter, and back to the top 2 levels in spring whence brood laying re-commences? Or does the cluster just stay over the brood region in the top most levels, and only a few bees at time traverse down to retrieve honey/pollen stores?

Conceptually I'm trying to see if a fixed 4 level box, no Queen Excluder, can foster a Nuc through its growth stages? Or must hives have more management and boxes/levels/etc have more human management to expand and contract with the relative size of the colony?

*Edit / addition: Part of my questions are stemming from the debates of 1 vs 2 brood boxes. I'm trying to avoid having to enter this debate and simply let the bees choose their need for brood boxes, whether they opt for top most 1 level or expand into 2 levels. My understanding of the Warre design is it doesn't even enter the debate of 1 vs 2 and simply lets the bees decide. That's where a larger fixed box design will already have the room for them to choose. Can their be too large of a cavity for too little bees?


----------



## Apiary Barn (Jun 21, 2021)

little_john said:


> You don't seem to have grasped the underlying principle of the Warre Beehive. The brood-nest is only* initially* located at the top. As the bees work their way downwards they create their brood-nest further and further down the stack, and as that brood emerges, the empty cells left behind are then used to store honey. So - brood is* always* located towards the bottom of the combs, with honey at the top.
> Come winter, the direction of travel is reversed, with the cluster working it's way upwards from the bottom, consuming stores as they go, until they arrive somewhere near the top, when the cycle is repeated the following Spring.
> 
> A Queen excluder which keeps the brood-nest at the top and the stores at the bottom ? With a QX in that position, what would happen to the drones ? What would happen when the colony eventually wanted to supersede ? That's a guaranteed way of killing a colony.
> LJ


Thank you. So, If I'm understanding bee behavior correctly, the cluster starts at the top, and traverses like a yo yo, seasonally oscillating from top to the bottom based upon honey/food demands?


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Apiary Barn said:


> Thank you. So, If I'm understanding bee behavior correctly, the cluster starts at the top, and traverses like a yo yo, seasonally oscillating from top to the bottom based upon honey/food demands?


Yes - a very slow yo-yo - around 1 or 2mm a day.

The Warre hive is unique in this respect - in just about every 'conventional' vertical beehive I can think of, the role of each box is defined beforehand - i.e. there are dedicated 'brood' boxes, and dedicated 'supers' which of course are used to hold a honey crop - and generally speaking, one type of box is not used for the other's purpose (although from time to time this does happen ...). In a sense, the brood chamber remains 'static', and supers are added on top of it as required.

But with the Warre system, this 'dedicated box' structure no longer applies - what you now have is a number of identical boxes, the role of each box effectively changing as the colony gradually moves down the stack. So the topmost box may indeed start off functioning as a brood box, but later-on becomes a stores box, containing honey.

In exactly the same way, in a natural bee-nest there are no *brood* combs or *stores* combs - there are just 'combs', whose function changes as the season progresses. I suppose the Warre Hive is the closest one can get to how things operate inside a hollow tree cavity, and I guess it is for this reason that this hive and it's beekeeping system have been embraced by the 'Natural' beekeeping community.
However, I have yet to see a tree leap into the air in order to have it's hollow cavity extended downwards - so in answer to your question whether it's ok for a small colony of bees to travel upwards through an extended and unoccupied cavity - I'd say that they do this in a natural setting ok, so it'll probably be ok here also. Giving them some frames (drawn if possible) 'down below' to act as ladders would probably be a good idea.

Some time ago I played around with the idea of a fixed-volume Warre beehive (to eliminate the absurdity of requiring the hive to be extended piecemeal at the bottom (just as happens in Nature ... LOL) - and this is what I came up with:








I must stress that I never did make such a hive, and so cannot give it any 'seal of approval' - but it should work ok. To use with a bottom entrance, simply make a few holes in the removable floor. Such a floor would enable you to control the volume of the cavity until the colony is of a reasonable size, after which it can be removed completely. Of course it may be that such a floor is entirely unnecessary in the first place. 

FWIW - I developed the basic idea after seeing this picture of a beehive built and run by Polish POW's in northern England during WWII. Ingenious people.










'best
LJ


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

little_john said:


> Hi GG - it appears that the major issue was always getting the frames out - and the guys used to use pliers for that task:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thanks LJ for the input, hope to save some grief.

GG


----------



## Apiary Barn (Jun 21, 2021)

Thank you all for the comments. I'm learning and this thread contributed.


----------

