# So treatment-free beekeepers are the problem?



## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Hello, everyone!

I haven't posted in a while, but my mother just sent me an article that's really aroused my ire and i wanted to get a little feedback on it. Perhaps i'm over-reacting, but it seems to me that the following article is quite slanted AGAINST treatment-free beekeepers:

http://tucson.com/ap/state/this-stings-winter-death-rate-for-america-s-bees-jumps/article_b638c816-5a4d-5a24-8b82-aef451b9167b.html

No mention at all of the school of thought that suggests those who treat are creating stronger mites and weaker bees. No mention at all of having to rotate treatments throughout the season because the mites become resistant to a particular treatment so quickly.

I'm probably poking a hornets nest by posting this here, but my little treatment-free backyard apiary overwintered beautifully, and knock wood, it will remain healthy and robust. I just can't understand why treatment-free beekeeping is so vilified, even by an article as stunningly superficial as the one linked here.

Still, i thanked my mother for sending it. Her heart was in the right place. 

Happy beekeeping all!


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

"Their hives die and survivors full of mites head to new hives, spreading the problem, he said."

A if they died how did survivors fly to new hives ? If they are dead their are no survivors.

B. If they die in winter how do they spread the mites?


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Robbing on flying days would be my guess


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

cheryl1 said:


> Robbing on flying days would be my guess


TF robbers robbing treated colonies? We all know only weak hives get robbed by stronger colonies


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

That's Slow. lol


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## b1kfd (Mar 6, 2014)

I would think that TF hives using VHS queens would be a problem-solver, not a problem-causer.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Here's the thing - they all have mites. At least that is my belief. They have mites, and if you treat like I do, it's your responsibility to keep tabs on them and deal with them in a timely manner before they get out of hand. No matter where the mites come from. The blame game is pointless.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

My take is that "treatment free" gets taken to mean "dump em in a box and ignore them til it's time to collect some honey." That's what the average Joe Blow thinks it means. They have no idea of the work and planning and care that goes into keeping true TF bees. Neither do most columnists or TV personalities. They have no idea of the differences between beeKEEPING and beeHAVING in the grand scale of things. Lots of newbees think the same way...until their hives start dying and they realize TF and treating are both actually a lot of honest-to-god hard work!! Then they either get on board or quit keeping bees. It is most definitely the beeHAVERS, not the TF beeks who are the problem. 

JMO

Rusty


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Thanks for your responses, everyone. I'm enjoying reading them! I don't know why that article plucked a nerve. I guess it felt like a slap. As Rusty said above, beekeeping is such hard work, and anyone who keeps bees in an engaged, responsible manner is ok in my book (even if their chosen techniques may differ from my own).


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Agree, bee havers are a problem. Both for the bees and for the image of treatment free beekeeping, since that's what most of them claim to be. Not the same thing though


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I read through this and decided it is worth commenting with some realistic information.

If a beekeeper purchases average commercial bees that are treated and attempts to go treatment free, those bees will almost always die within 2 years. At that point, any bees that survive the onslaught of mites do indeed hop to another colony carrying a massive influx of mites which then overwhelms that colony. In this paradigm, the guy who treats his bees is losing because the no-treatment beekeeper gave him massive amounts of mites. This is what the article describes.

Truly treatment free bees have low mite loads at any time of year. They are able to fend off the mites and survive long term without treatment. Even with these bees, if a bunch of treated bees die nearby, the number of incoming mites may overwhelm the TF bees. In this case, the commercial treated bees that were not treated for mites can kill the bees of the treatment free beekeeper.

In a better world, commercial bee suppliers would move all their production to treatment free bees which would eliminate the problem with untreated commercial bees collapsing.

Here is contact info if you would like to email the contributors.
Email: [email protected] Phone: (406) 243-5648
Email: [email protected] Phone: (304) 405-3942


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> My take is that "treatment free" gets taken to mean "dump em in a box and ignore them til it's time to collect some honey."
> 
> JMO
> 
> Rusty



Ha Ha, Ronco Beekeepers..... Set and forget! I know this is anecdotal but I know a few guys who keep bees this way and one of them has overwintered 100% 2 yrs in a row. Historically speaking both guys traditionally have very low loss rate.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

cheryl1 said:


> Agree, bee havers are a problem. Both for the bees and for the image of treatment free beekeeping, since that's what most of them claim to be. Not the same thing though


.....but are they as big a problem as the swarms that are cast from the 1000 or so migratory beekeepers that manage the vast majority of bees?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

deknow said:


> .....but are they as big a problem as the swarms that are cast from the 1000 or so migratory beekeepers that manage the vast majority of bees?


And the migratory structures in place with commercial, queen and package industry that spreads every new disease variant around the continent. Its not just about the mites, but the viral landscape and how bee movement affects it. 

The positives of local bee production surely outweighs the negatives in this regard. 

That said, especially for those of us getting off the ground tf, there would be some benefit in identifying and dealing with colonies that were in obvious decline. Actually it would be of benefit to all beekeepers as treating is a skill as well that has a learning curve. Our neighbors would thank us and the rest of the bees in the yard would thank us.


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## cheryl1 (Mar 7, 2015)

There are no migratory beeks in my area, so I can't speak to that. I'm sure someone somewhere is studying it


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> My take is that "treatment free" gets taken to mean "dump em in a box and ignore them til it's time to collect some honey." That's what the average Joe Blow thinks it means. They have no idea of the work and planning and care that goes into keeping true TF bees. Neither do most columnists or TV personalities. They have no idea of the differences between beeKEEPING and beeHAVING in the grand scale of things. Lots of newbees think the same way...until their hives start dying and they realize TF and treating are both actually a lot of honest-to-god hard work!! Then they either get on board or quit keeping bees. It is most definitely the beeHAVERS, not the TF beeks who are the problem.
> 
> JMO
> 
> Rusty


^^^ Truth. The TF beeks I know that are successful work incredibly hard at it. Freezing drone combs and keeping track of them and the timing blows my mind. Can't imagine juggling 50 TF hives but I know someone that does. You have to admire them for doing it the hard way. They're good beekeepers too so don't judge all TF ppl the same way. (I run into lots of ppl who think TF means throw em in a box and forget about em until it's honey time)


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

lharder said:


> ....there would be some benefit in identifying and dealing with colonies that were in obvious decline. Actually it would be of benefit to all beekeepers as treating is a skill as well that has a learning curve. Our neighbors would thank us and the rest of the bees in the yard would thank us.


well said lharder.

my only losses in the last 12 months were 2 colonies in which the queens failed outside of mating season. i'm fairly confident that the bees i am managing are not posing any health problems to other bees in the area.

on the other hand, there is a fellow 2 counties away that brought in and sold close to 1000 packages of commercially bred bees this season. he advocates regular mite treatments, twice yearly preventive antibiotic treatments, and fumagillin in the fall.

i don't think many of these packages ended up in or near my neighborhood but it's not hard to see how overwhelming the gene pool with bees that require treatments could make it difficult to propagate more resistant bees.

the bottom line is that it cuts both ways, we aren't keeping our bees in a vaccuum, all of us have the potential to impact the rest, and it appears that at least for the foreseeable future this tension created by the competing interests of beekeepers will continue.

for the benefit of our newer members, here is a thread in which some very good comments on the topic were made by contributors on both sides of the approach:

[http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275161-treatment-free-beekeeping-the-risks


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

I think the knife cuts both ways............If you don't monitor your hive's health including varroa mite levels, the hive is likely to die and your neighbors are impacted in a negative way by those varroa mites (and other diseases) being transferred to neighboring hives. On the other hand, I would also think that using medications in a routine manner as opposed to using them as needed would allow the varroa mites ( and other diseases) to build up resistance to the medication. So blame is to be applied to both sides of the fence. 

Also, in my opinion, people need to make an effort to learn about genetic diversity and how promoting certain traits can be helpful in the fight against pests/diseases the bees have to deal with. To be a good manager of your bee's, I believe you need to know this type of stuff. I'm not saying that focus on disease resistance is the only trait that should be focused on but selecting breeder queens that excel in that area would be helpful to the industry as a whole. 

Varroa mites and diseases can be managed in a variety of ways, with chemicals and without. But for beekeepers to bring a hive into close proximity with other bee yards around and just leave the hive with no management of it's health is irresponsible.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...but what is the impact compared the the annual swarms (.5%? 1%? 2%?) From the 1000 or so beekeepers that manage somewhere around 2.5 million colonies?

It's like blaming highway deaths on the small number of antique cars that don't have modern safety features.

If these unmanaged hives are such a problem, then it seems to me the low hanging fruit is the swarms from professional operations.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> on the other hand, there is a fellow 2 counties away that brought in and sold close to 1000 packages of commercially bred bees this season. he advocates regular mite treatments, twice yearly preventive antibiotic treatments, and fumagillin in the fall.
> 
> i don't think many of these packages ended up in or near my neighborhood but it's not hard to see how overwhelming the gene pool with bees that require treatments could make it difficult to propagate more resistant bees.
> 
> Its a good reason to promote and distribute bees produced locally. Inroads on this kind of activity would be helpful to bee genetics.


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

deknow said:


> ...but what is the impact compared the the annual swarms (.5%? 1%? 2%?) From the 1000 or so beekeepers that manage somewhere around 2.5 million colonies?
> 
> It's like blaming highway deaths on the small number of antique cars that don't have modern safety features.
> 
> If these unmanaged hives are such a problem, then it seems to me the low hanging fruit is the swarms from professional operations.


I don't follow the analogy.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> If these unmanaged hives are such a problem, then it seems to me the low hanging fruit is the swarms from professional operations.


Colonies tend to collapse from mites in the fall or early winter. Where did these mites come from? They originated in treated colonies. How do I know they originated in treated colonies? Because any untreated susceptible colony is dead within 2 years. The only way mites can continue to spread is if treated colonies are the source. Hitchhiker mites that transfer from one bee to another as the bees forage will be the culprit. This does not mean swarms are not a factor, but it suggests swarms are not the most important factor.


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

lharder said:


> squarepeg said:
> 
> 
> > on the other hand, there is a fellow 2 counties away that brought in and sold close to 1000 packages of commercially bred bees this season. he advocates regular mite treatments, twice yearly preventive antibiotic treatments, and fumagillin in the fall.
> ...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Fusion_power said:


> Colonies tend to collapse from mites in the fall or early winter. Where did these mites come from? They originated in treated colonies. How do I know they originated in treated colonies? Because any untreated susceptible colony is dead within 2 years. The only way mites can continue to spread is if treated colonies are the source. Hitchhiker mites that transfer from one bee to another as the bees forage will be the culprit. This does not mean swarms are not a factor, but it suggests swarms are not the most important factor.


If the claim is that colonies kept by TF beekeepers aren't treated and act as a reservoir of mites (mite bomb) to infect other beekeepers, then these unmanaged swarms from commercial operations must also be mite bombs. ...and for some reason, they are going to tend to be distributed in areas where there are lots of beekeepers.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Most everyone seems to be making the assumption that the genetics of the commercial bees are poor, when actually they may not be. A commercial operation selling bees may treat without ever doing test to see if they need treating. All bees were non-treatment bees until after WW2 when Sulfa drugs were found to suppress AFB and beekeepers began doing preventative treatments. 

The resistant bees are just the results of selection, that is why we do monitor our bees, to select those that show the most ability to survive and give good honey crops. The problem is that many treatment free beekeepers do not manage, or select, they just put bees in boxes and hope for the best. If you do not believe that there are "mite bombs" that spread mites when they crash in late summer or fall, you are not watching your bees closely enough. I saw this in my own yards this past fall when I had nucs that began robbing a colony crashing from varroa mites.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Thanks, all, for more wonderful, thought provoking responses.

And Squarepeg, thank you for posting that link! I haven't been keeping up with the forum, so i missed that thread entirely.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Hey you guys are all barking up the wrong tree, did you not read all the remarks from all those budding Einsteins who clearly blamed all the losses on Monsanto and their neonics.
Johno


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Not sure but I don't think Monsanto is in the neonics bizness. Bayer Crop Science is the ones who make that stuff. PPL get the two confused. Monsanto are the Roundup and GMO people.

Could be wrong. 50/50


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Well aunt Betty, Monsanto, Bayer whats the difference they are both evil capitalist who want to kill us all just to make a profit. Now that is quite a business model, Kill all your customers then you can make a fortune.
Johno


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

From my point of view, adjacent beekeepers do not present mite problems in my hives. I can manage mites, no matter the source. What I cannot manage is the huge influx of SHB that have been raised by failed colonies that were allowed to perish and become SHB factories. Which in turn flood the area with large numbers of beetles. These crashed hives can be from poorly managed hives or "wild" hives. The entire premise that problems arise from other beekeepers ignore the feral populations, whether fresh swarms or established colonies.


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## umchuck (May 22, 2014)

Question? if i purchase a VHS Queen can I requeen with a daughter of hers and have a VHS queen? and if so ,how? she didnt get to mate with the same drones as her mother did!


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

Umchuck
The VSH expression usually persists through the second generation. Much after that it is too diluted unless they mated with some drones that carried the traits. Think of it as your first queen is a duaghter of an II breeder, she open mated so her offspring are 50%. Those daughters open mate and produce 25% vsh workers. Much below 25% and the traits are not expressed.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Dups!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You might have some survivor traits once the daughter mated with
the local drones from the feral source. So the question is what is the
composition of your local bees in the DCAs? After that you have to evaluate
the daughter in order to determine the hygienic aspect of the worker bees.
Whether it is a tf or a treated hive depends on the mite load during any given
time in the season. A low mite colony will not affect the nearby colonies whereas a
heavy mite colony will have many threats. Hopefully your 2nd year hive can keep the
mite count down enough to keep it tf going in their 3rd season. Do keep an eye on the mites!


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I read yesterday on CNBC that Bayer is entering into discussions with Monsanto for a takeover or purchase by Bayer.

Alex


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I think the idea paraphrased as "TF keepers harbor mite-bombs" is a red-herring. The mite-growth models all suggest even a small innoculation of mites in the spring can expand (without external immigration) to toxic population levels by fall.

The feisty Susan T Rudnicki wrote Dennis vanEngelsdorp, complaining about the statements.
Dennis wrote back (and judging from the BIP blog comments he must be getting a rash).

Dennis vanEngelsdorp's email reads (copied from Parker's FB group): (edit -- I stripped the phone and email for privacy)

Dennis vanEngelsdorp <xxxxxx>
12:17 PM (19 minutes ago)

to Nathalie, me
Hi Susan

thanks for your email.

I think there is some confusion about surveys. The survey which we calculate losses on is our loss and management survey - we certianly ask queen source questions there.

We have evidence from our sentinel apiary program that colonies that have low to undetectable levels of mites in September can have numbers jump past threshold 3 weeks later. We have to prove this experimentally, but we are pretty sure that this influx is coming from surrounding crashing untreated colonies. 40% of backyard beekeepers report not treating, and that this group looses more colonies than all others.

Your comments suggest that you think i dont think resistant bee populations are possible - I actually do think they are possible, I just dont think the best way to develop them is have a whole lot of people simply stop treating bees and see what happens. I think its irresponsible unless you are in isolation and your crashing bees wont spread to your neighbors.

It seem like that was not the approach you used, and so you are not causing harm to your neighbors. I think you maybe an exception rather than the rule.

It does seem that you do have a varroa control strategy in place - use of resistant stock - others are simply buying packages and hoping to select from them. That is a big difference.

-- 
Dennis vanEngelsdorp, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Entomology
University of Maryland​


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

johno said:


> Well aunt Betty, Monsanto, Bayer whats the difference they are both evil capitalist who want to kill us all just to make a profit. Now that is quite a business model, Kill all your customers then you can make a fortune.
> Johno


Really now? Your statement is laughable at best.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

AHudd said:


> I read yesterday on CNBC that Bayer is entering into discussions with Monsanto for a takeover or purchase by Bayer.
> 
> Alex


Could be, everyone is trying to merge so they're in the chemical and seed business.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

JRG13 said:


> Really now? Your statement is laughable at best.


Your Sarcasm Detector is failing, Sheldon.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

In this capitalistic society anything is a possibility.
Remember the govt has to jump in so that pfizer cannot merge with
a foreign company? Anything is a go when the price is right these days.


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