# New: TBH Design Advice



## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

Howdy!

I'm new to the forum and I've never kept bees before but I think I would like to start. I've done a bit of reading and the Top Bar Hive sounds appealing to me. I'm pretty handy in the workshop so I'll build my own. I plan to keep it simple but while keeping it bee friendly and user friendly. So I have a few questions if you don't mind me asking (I'm guessing the experienced here have answered similar questions many times).

- My biggest design question, why slope the sides of the TBH? Simple to build it square and if sized correctly, you could use medium Langstroth frames in a pinch and it seems that might be beneficial to a newbie starting out. However, I don't know the downsides of doing this so what do you think? Being a little wide, is it best to limit the depth of the TBH so the cones size is limited?

- What are the pros and cons of an end entrance versus a side entrance? Along with that, multiple entrances versus a single entrance and the pros and cons of bottom entrances versus top/mid/bottom entrances? I seen one style of commercial TBH that had both top and bottom entrance holes on the end.

- What is a good lid design? I want it lightweight. Is a flat top good enough? How bad is it if a little water gets in the hive (as it seems it might at times with a flat top)? I've not had good luck using plywood outdoors as it seems it want to delaminate. What do you use?

- I live in NW Arkansas (roughly 20 mile from Oklahoma and 20 miles from Missouri). So it gets fairly hot and fairly cold (but cold in short bursts......not like up north). What modifications (if any) should I make for weather in my area?

I'll likely build a stand seperate from the TBH as I've seen in some of your pictures. 

This is a great site and I appreciate all your contributions.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

I'm not going to answer all your questions, I think going to Michael Bush's site would do that, JMO. I started with sloped sides and that works good, but since I am slowly transitioning to more and more langstroth I wish I had started with the long hives that would take a lang frame. I use flat tops and they do well for me, it is mostly up north that they may use slanted roofs. I have went completely to top entrances or at least a top vent on my older equipment. I also use simple anti-robber screens on all my hives since the ones that I didn't use them on are gone to bee heaven.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource!


Here is Michael Bush's page on horizontal hives:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm

If you have any possible interest in having both Lang and TBHs, make your TBH sized to accept frames. You can still be foundationless if you want, but the ability to _easily _trade resources with Lang hives is very useful.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

I think End entrances make organization easier. You know they will put brood near the entrance and honey will be further back. Ours we put 3 hole entrances at top-ish, middle, bottom-ish and they open/close them with propolis as they want. 

Separate stand is a good idea. less prone to falling over, just be sure to get it very level. 

horizontal hive sounds like it will work for you. build it like a lang but 4' long and have the bars be the same width as lang frames 

flat top is no problem. a good heavy duty 3/4" plywood with some bricks on top. can paint it with a good house paint for more protection. 

1x__ lumber would be fine (3/4") or 1" roughcut is also good. shouldn't need to modify.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

You might start here and then do a search on this site for Horizontal Hives. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?305601-Lets-talk-about-Long-Lang-Hives


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

If you do go with a TBH I would advise that you make your top bars so they can be transferred to a lang hive. Then if you do decide to change to Langs it is a lot easier. When I was running TBH's I had 17" top bars which made it easy to just add a piece of wood onto them and put them into a lang. Or make your top bars 19" long and build a Long Lang. Whatever you do come play with bees it's fun!
Colino


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

One of the reasons I like the slanted sides of the TBH is due to the amount of rain we get along the coast here. With a roof that extends out the ends the body of the hive always stays dry. It's easy enough to prop one side of the roof so that the water runs off.









Also once you have built up a supply of extra brood combs it is not much of an issue to shake bees from a Lang to start in a TBH or vise versa. This is a shook swarm from a Lang into the same hive above.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

End entrances and make it accept Lang frames. I kicked the idea around and wish I would have. At the very least make your top bars width the same as a Lang. I'm glad I did that.


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

Thanks for this responses.....look forward to more feedback.

I'm doing the search as suggested above. There is a lot of geed reading. Help me out with a couple of acronyms and a couple of definitions if you don't mind so I can understand what I'm reading. 

First, what is the first "T" in TTBH? The last part is "top bar hive" I'm guessing but I'm not sure what the first "T" refers to.

Second, what is the difference between a "long Lang" or "horizontal Lang" and a straight sided TBH that is sized to accept a Lang frame? I'm guessing there is some distinguishment I've not yet picked up on.

Last, I'm not sure I understand the definition of a "Nuc". Can you help?


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> End entrances and make it accept Lang frames. I kicked the idea around and wish I would have. At the very least make your top bars width the same as a Lang. I'm glad I did that.


And to interchange between my TBH and a standard Lang, I need to size it so it accepts deep Lang frames? I had thought of going with the medium depth frames but I guess I couldn't move frames from the bottom box of a Lang if I understand correctly. Would this be too deep for a comb hanging off a top bar without a frame? I had thought or starting a colony with Lang frames but possibly let it expand naturally using top bars.......thoughts?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The "T" in a TTBH stands for Tanzania, and the "K" in a KTBH stands for Kenya. The only real significance is that the TTBH has vertical sides, while a KTBH has angled sides.

It is possible to make a KTBH (angled sides) such that it would accept top bars long enough to transfer combs to a Lang hive. However, Lang frames would not go the other way and fit into a KTBH.

"Nuc" is short for 'nucleus', and refers to a small hive. Nucs vary somewhat, but typically may have 4 to 5 'standard' frames. By 'standard' I mean _standard _deep or medium frames.


Two glossaries of Beekeeping terms:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?237911-Beekeeping-Glossary
- and -
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesglossary.htm


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

Can nucs be purchased on Lang medium frames?

Would it be better to build a TBH at Lang medium or deep dimensions?


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

I written a little about tbh design. And I've done some experimenting.

The bees:


don't care about sloped sides and will attach comb when it needs reinforcing.
definately prefer a lower side entrance compared to a lower end entrance.


The hive:

design parameters - http://talkingstickblog.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/build-a-top-bar-hive/
sloped sides and entrances - http://talkingstickblog.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/hive-body/
lids - http://talkingstickblog.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/cover/
 
Concerning entrances, consider a top entrance. I haven't used them on my tbhs. But they worked great on my conventional hives. And I plan to use them on my next tbhs.

-dm


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

Just went out to the shop and I have quite a bit of western cedar scrap and had a 1X12 a bit over 8ft long. Don't think I'll need to buy much once I figure out what I want to build..


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

BeeAttitudes said:


> And to interchange between my TBH and a standard Lang, I need to size it so it accepts deep Lang frames? I had thought of going with the medium depth frames but I guess I couldn't move frames from the bottom box of a Lang if I understand correctly. Would this be too deep for a comb hanging off a top bar without a frame? I had thought or starting a colony with Lang frames but possibly let it expand naturally using top bars.......thoughts?


You do not need to build your TBH to accept Lang frames. You just need to build the Top Bars a length that will fit in a Lang Box. Although there have been those who have built a Lang/TBH hybrid with the top of it with straight sides and the bottom part with sloped sides it is not necessary. I found with my TBH's the bees as a rule built their comb +/- 9" deep so all I had to do was modify the top bars from my TBH so they would hang in a deep Lang box. This doesn't cause any cutting of comb or other destructive processes, the tapered comb hangs in the Lang and eventually the bees sometimes build out the corners to square off the comb. To go the other way it can get real messy, to see what I mean watch the video below where Phil Chandler goes from Langstroth to TBH. Notice how his top bars on his TBH are the same length as the Lang frame top bar. 
http://vimeo.com/5614348


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

Yeah, I want to make sure I can go from Langstrom to my TBH without any mods to the frame.


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

Good info and BWrangler, I especially liked the plans with dimensions.


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm still easily confused, I'm using square sides and the standard width of a Long. Which depth should I use the standard Lang deep or Lang medium? (and should the depth I choose affect the length?)


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

BeeAttitudes said:


> I'm still easily confused, I'm using square sides and the standard width of a Long. Which depth should I use the standard Lang deep or Lang medium? (and should the depth I choose affect the length?)


Maybe this will help, this guy builds the Cadillac of Long Hives.
http://www.beebehavior.com/modified_european_long_hive.php
Colino


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>- My biggest design question, why slope the sides of the TBH? 

The theory was that the bees would attached it less. Reality is, I see no difference. In the middle east they have been keeping bees in hives that look kind of like a sewer pipe except that it is tapered somwhat. The taper makes it easier to get the comb out. I think that was the reason for the slope in a Greek basket hive (from which the top bar hive was modeled). You can't make a basket all that exact so if you are going to off slightly a taper going down makes it easier to get combs out.

>Simple to build it square and if sized correctly, you could use medium Langstroth frames in a pinch and it seems that might be beneficial to a newbie starting out. 

It is slightly more work because you need frame rabbets to make it take Langstroth frames (no gaps in a top bar hive, but gaps between Langstroth frame ends...)

>However, I don't know the downsides of doing this so what do you think? Being a little wide, is it best to limit the depth of the TBH so the cones size is limited?

The only downside is that it takes a bit more woodworking skill to make the rabbet. You can do it in two cuts on a table saw very easily. I've done it with two cuts on a skilsaw before I had a table saw.

>- What are the pros and cons of an end entrance versus a side entrance?

The advantage to the end entrance is that the bees will tend to go into winter at one end of the hive which is the best place to be so they will work their way to the other end without leaving food behind them. If they are in the middle it more likely that they will work their way to the one end with food still at the other end.

>Along with that, multiple entrances versus a single entrance

I have seen them robbed with multiple entrances because they didn't realize one of the entrances wasn't being guarded. But I think that's more of an exception than a rule. Still I would prefer to avoid it.

> and the pros and cons of bottom entrances versus top/mid/bottom entrances? 

Top lets out the moisture and in my opinion winters better. Bottom had issues with skunks, but them mine are not on a stand.

>I seen one style of commercial TBH that had both top and bottom entrance holes on the end.

I prefer just the top.

>- What is a good lid design? I want it lightweight. Is a flat top good enough? 

Yes. Flat is fine.

>How bad is it if a little water gets in the hive (as it seems it might at times with a flat top)?

Actually it won't get in much at all. The bees seal everything with propolis.

> I've not had good luck using plywood outdoors as it seems it want to delaminate. What do you use?

I use one by pine.

>- I live in NW Arkansas (roughly 20 mile from Oklahoma and 20 miles from Missouri). So it gets fairly hot and fairly cold (but cold in short bursts......not like up north). What modifications (if any) should I make for weather in my area?

I would probably put them in the shade or where they get afternoon shade to try to keep combs from collapsing in the heat.

>I'll likely build a stand seperate from the TBH as I've seen in some of your pictures. 

I got rid of the stands after the hives blew over in the wind.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

BeeAttitudes said:


> And to interchange between my TBH and a standard Lang, I need to size it so it accepts deep Lang frames? I had thought of going with the medium depth frames but I guess I couldn't move frames from the bottom box of a Lang if I understand correctly. Would this be too deep for a comb hanging off a top bar without a frame? I had thought or starting a colony with Lang frames but possibly let it expand naturally using top bars.......thoughts?


Nope, going just one direction (from TBH to Lang) was my priority. Once it's in there it isn't able to be put back into the TBH unless you hack a bunch of it off. I will not be putting top bars into another Lang though. It went fine, it just makes for one monsterous piece of comb with no extra support. If I build any more TBHs they will be deep Langstroths... just longer.

Attached is what a top bar built out to deep frame size looks like. Too big... I wish I would have cut the combs off and rubber banded them in. Lesson learned.


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

Thanks everyone for your helpful suggestions and links to even more info. Very helpful!


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## msscha (Jan 4, 2014)

Colino said:


> When I was running TBH's I had 17" top bars which made it easy to just add a piece of wood onto them and put them into a lang.
> Colino


 This is what I'm thinking of doing -- I have a single hive with 17" bars, the other local TBHers use 19", and I figured I could go 19" with this winter's hive builds (hoping to expand to at least 3 in spring!) -- how did you add the piece of wood to extend the 17" bars? I've considered drilling and insert a dowel or clamping along with top. I've also thought of adding some additional thickness to part of the 19" hive to accommodate the 17" bars (about 5 bars total), figuring the bees would expand onto the 19" bars without much trouble.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

msscha said:


> This is what I'm thinking of doing -- I have a single hive with 17" bars, the other local TBHers use 19", and I figured I could go 19" with this winter's hive builds (hoping to expand to at least 3 in spring!) -- how did you add the piece of wood to extend the 17" bars? I've considered drilling and insert a dowel or clamping along with top. I've also thought of adding some additional thickness to part of the 19" hive to accommodate the 17" bars (about 5 bars total), figuring the bees would expand onto the 19" bars without much trouble.


Hello:
I just rip a piece of 1" stock 3/8" thick and trim it 19" long, then drill 3 holes in it and screw it to the top of my top bars so they will fit in a Lang. If you are going to use yours in a TBH you could maybe just make it the width of your top bars instead of 1" that way you will have no gaps on the ends. Of course that means your top bars will hang 3/8" deeper into your hive but that is no biggie.
Colino


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