# Rabbet joint for hive boxes



## bigbearomaha

Rabbett joints do better than just "good enough". It is a viable and common joint used widely in furniture and crate/chest construction.

Big Bear


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## BeeCurious

I use Titebond III glue on my assemblies and I seal all exposed end-grain with it too. I make my nuc boxes now, but I buy hive bodies. Check out the cost of Miller's commercial boxes if you want finger joints. I was very satisfied with the quality. Very few knots, with perhaps some less than perfect handholds.


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## no1cowboy

your picture?


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## peacekeeperapiaries

we build all of our own boxes (500 or so to date) using the rabbet joint, titebondIII, and 1/2 inch crown 1 1/2 staples. They hold just fine.


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## Jim 134

Rossman Apiaries in GA. Has sold rabbet joints for hive boxes for years

www.GAbees.com

BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## AmericasBeekeeper

A fair comparison of rabbet joints or box/finger/dovetail joints would need the same number of fasteners in each. Very few beeks use ten nails in a rabbet joint or even nail in both directions.


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## peacekeeperapiaries

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> Very few beeks use ten nails in a rabbet joint or even nail in both directions.


We shoot 3-- 1/2" crown staples in each direction on each side of the joint (deep box), with the glue its plenty strong


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## BeeCurious

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> A fair comparison of rabbet joints or box/finger/dovetail joints would need the same number of fasteners in each.


I'm not a woodworker, but I think that ten fasteners in a rabbet joint would weaken it. 

Perhaps a better test would be to omit all fasteners, and simply use the same glue. Then it is simply the joints that would be judged. 

I have some 5-frame medium nucs that are only glued together, including the handles...


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## Tom Fran

no1cowboy said:


> your picture?


Yep, that's it. Why doesn't it show up in *my* post?


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## Jaseemtp

Do y'all happen to have plans that I could look at or send to me on making medium hive bodies using the rabbet joint? Sorry I just purchased my first table saw and have very limited wood working skill / knowledge.
Jason


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## AmericasBeekeeper

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/aben-plans/6324.pdf
University of Florida engineered these for the least materials and skills.


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## Solomon Parker

Jaseemtp said:


> Do y'all happen to have plans that I could look at


I designed a 3x3 mating nuc with rabbet joints. You can see the basic design on my blog. You can obviously omit the dividers to make a normal box, and if you want to make a different size box, all you need to do is adjust the height.

http://parkerfarms.blogspot.com/2011/12/mating-nucs.html

I use this design myself. I've just finished making ten 3x3 mating nucs and used the scraps to make nucs. It's all the same basic design, just adjusting dimensions here and there. I use Titebond III and about 3 composite deck screws per corner. Sometimes 2-4 depending on the condition of the wood.


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## Mike Gillmore

Jaseemtp said:


> Do y'all happen to have plans that I could look at or send to me on making medium hive bodies using the rabbet joint?
> Jason


Watch these two YouTube videos on building mediums with rabbet joints. I tried it last winter with a table saw and router and it worked great. You can make them entirely with a table saw if you like, but I like to finish off with a router for cleaner joints. I use just 3 screws on each corner after the glue has dried. They make nice sturdy boxes and you have 1/2 the amount of exposed end grain than you would with a box joint. 

The only thing I do differently - I found that one 12' piece of lumber will give you 2 complete boxes, with only an inch or so of waste.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJfpDhNi2Gs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyyq4g51iXg&feature=related


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## Jaseemtp

Thanks alot for the info y'all, I do appreciate it.


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## Michael Palmer

I noticed in the poll some replied rabbetted joint, finger joint, butt joint, and 2 replied other. What is the other kind of joint?


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## Solomon Parker

Dovetail would be my first guess. There are also guys I've seen use various other methods usually reserved for high end cabinetry.


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## tefer2

Lock miter joint is one used, bit is $$


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## Joseph Clemens

There is a somewhat complex lock miter joint that can be cut with a table saw, and there are router/shaper bits that cut a locking miter joint all at once. The best feature of any locking miter joint is the absence of any exposed end grain. If the proper amount of waterproof glue is used, in conjunction with strong fasteners, the end grain will remain secure from the damaging effects of exposure to moisture and other damaging weather. I appreciate locking miter joints, but when I make my own supers, I rarely use them, I'm too lazy, rabbet joints are about as easy as it gets, except maybe butt-joints.


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## tefer2

I see some cut a 3/8 x 3/8 rabbet in both the ends and the sides.
I just cut the ends with a 3/8 x 3/4 rabbet, and leave the sides square.
Titebond III, and 1 1/2 crown staples. Hope you don't have to undo any.


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## Daddy'sBees

I voted "other". I use finger joints and they are strong, tight. I got these plans and it works well for me. http://www.woodsmithstore.com/boxjoint.html


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## ralittlefield

Daddy'sBees said:


> I use finger joints http://www.woodsmithstore.com/boxjoint.html


Actually, that is a box joint jig. Finger joints are similar, but instead of square pins, as in a box joint, they are tapered and somewhat longer. A finger joint is what is used to join the ends of two short pieces to make a longer piece. It is often used to make millwork (trim boards).


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## ralittlefield

Michael Palmer said:


> What is the other kind of joint?


I use dovetails because I can cut them very quickly on my dovetail jig, and they tend to square the box up better than other joints, making assembly a little quicker.


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## ralittlefield

Tom Fran said:


> is the rabbet joint sufficiently strong


I am sure that the rabbet joint will be okay. If you get a board that has a tendancy to cup it may pull out a little over time, but after all, they are just bee hives, right?


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## Joseph Clemens

I've discovered that, here in the desert Southwest, nails, even ring shank nails, begin walking out of the wood within a few months. Then the boards, even those assembled using box joints (composed of interlocking fingers), soon start coming apart. Now, that I've been using Titebond III and coated deck screws to assemble them, this doesn't happen any more. And, since Titebond III and coated deck screws can even hold together boxes made with rabbet joints, and rabbet joints can be created and assembled quickly and easily, the lazy in me says, "go for it".


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## TxFirefighter

Rabbet joints are not as strong as box joints, but, will outlast a box joint because the endgrain on a rabbet is less exposed than on a box joint. They will last much longer when exposed to the elements.
Not to mention, you don't stand a chance of popping out a joint when prying down on them like you will have on a box joint. I know, anyone that has bees has done this with their hive tools.
I prefer Rabbet joints hands down.


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## mmiller

TxFirefighter said:


> Not to mention, you don't stand a chance of popping out a joint when prying down on them like you will have on a box joint. I know, anyone that has bees has done this with their hive tools.
> I prefer Rabbet joints hands down.


:scratch:I'm a little dense. Can you help me understand what you mean here?

Mike


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## fish_stix

Me too! I've been keeping bees for about fifty some years and have never popped out a joint using the hive tool. What joints and how do you accomplish this? BTW, if you're prying on the frame ends you are messing up for sure. Pry on the top bar between the end bars with the corner of the tool, raising up one end at a time.


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## Solomon Parker

I've had some corners break off. But if you're popping a joint, you're not putting it together right.


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## bluegrass

The joint doesn't really matter. If you wood is properly cured and stable a butt joint will hold up for decades.


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## Scrapfe

Don't mean to hijack this but what kind of joint do you think is best for joining the corners of tops, inner covers & bottom boards, laps, tenons, etc .

Or for joining narrow boards edge to edge for making solid bottoms, intercovers, and migratory lids, tongue and groves, laps, butt joints etc.? 

OR is plywood and sealing the plies against the weather with glue good enough? :scratch:


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## ralittlefield

Scrapfe said:


> what kind of joint do you think is best for joining the corners of tops,:


I use rabbet joints



Scrapfe said:


> inner covers :


Lap joints



Scrapfe said:


> & bottom boards:


rabbet joint




Scrapfe said:


> Or for joining narrow boards edge to edge:


Biscuit joint



Scrapfe said:


> OR is plywood and sealing the plies against the weather with glue good enough? :scratch:


I would not do that.


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## JD's Bees

For ease of construction and being good enough for the job I would choose the rabbet joint.
Generally the difference between the joints is gluing surface with butt joints having the least and box\dovetail the most. If properly constructed the glue joint should be stronger than the wood surrounding it.
I would say that taking the time to properly assemble the box or any equipment is as or more important than the choice of joint.


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## Scrapfe

Thanks Ralph.


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## Tom Fran

Thanks, Ryan, for sharing your knowledge with us. I'm sure your videos will help a lot of beeks!


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## ryanbekke

Hello JSEEMTP, I have made 11 videos on complete standard size langstroth hive construction. I give you all of the dimensions for the cuts. The complete hive with foundation will cost around $60-$70 to complete if you make your own frames as in my video. There is no charge to view my videos they are free to all, so feel free to take a look. I hope this will help you out. 

Here is a link to two of them.


How to make a hive body or medium super
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mDV...DvjVQa1PpcFMgCF8jPZ9p0x-1I7gSkJT4VjU2GOpKMxU=

A complete teardown of the hive I show you how to make.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMvCuYuWVeQ&feature=channel


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## Jaseemtp

Awesome! Thank you


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## psfred

Rabbet joints do not interlock, they just butt up together and the strength of the joint is determined by the glue and other fasteners. Box joints, miterlock joints, and dovetails all interlock, so pressure is transmitted to the other part when they are stressed rather than to the fasteners. 

That said, I just made 5 tops using lap joints with a 1/2" sheet of plywood inset into a dado at the top. Nailed up very square (four nails per corner below the plywood, 14 nails to hold the plywood down -- I plan on these lasting forever.

I would have done box joints, but didn't have the saw set up and we really need to get rid of a couple leaking covers, I think we killed a hive with one this winter. 

Boxes will get box joints -- properly sealed and painted, they should last forever and I'm not worried about prying or torquing them out of shape -- too much force on a rabbet and the fastener will fail to hold, and the joint will spread. It's possible to break a box joint, but I suspect not with hive tool!

It does take longer to cut box joints, and less than perfectly flat lumber will cause some problems that one does not see cutting rabbet joints on a table saw, but then you won't have flat sides or perfect joints, either. I'm only making enough for a few hives (mine, my brother's, and for a friend in exchange for some splits if things work out), so it's not a big problem for me once I get set up. Hundreds of boxes? Gang saws or rabbet joints, I think! 

Peter


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## Cliffton Leverett

I just want to mention Lock Miter Joints. I think they are very cool if you're working with something else then pine. I wanted to use Lock Miter Joints to create what I thought would be a superior joint and cut a box before I could get one shipped to me and in the long run maybe save a little bit of cash. Also I could save time over box joints by leaving my router table set up for the joint then I would just have to cross cut pieces into length on my miter saw, rip to height, and then cut the frame rest rabbet on the table saw.

Well the main problem is that if you are using store bought pine it usually is cupped. I originally was looking for perfect pieces but after sifting through a whole unit to get 5 pieces I had to settle for "slightly" cupped. The problem comes when you are cutting the joint. If it is cupped or warped it changes how deep the profile is cut. When assembling the joint I try and mitigate this by clamping into place with bar clamps, corner clamps, and straps. I still ended up with boxes that had a little wobble.

I also had a lot of blow out. Most of the tongue was missing or the end of the board would have been blown out. I researched the problem and the answer to fix the issues were to switch to a different wood. According to a lot of router enthusiast pine is a bad choice to use a large bit and cut a profile out of the end of it. The board was likened to a bunch of spaghetti and when you get to the end it is very brittle with nothing to hold it in place. 

So I tried to cut 5 deeps and I ended up buying 5, 8 foot pieces thinking I would get 6 deeps. Well in reality I got 5 because the extra pieces that I wanted to use were so badly blown out I had a lot of waste. Putting the boards together are a pain too. I have to bend the cupped piece into place with all these clamps then I have to re-position the clamps to get staples into the corners it take a lot of time. To make assembly easier and to make a nicer joint I am thinking that I could use my router table as a jointer and square the ends and then I should get a planer to make my boards perfectly flat. Which I put the brakes on because of how much extra time that would take. Also how am I ever going to save money if I can get a premade cut boxes for slightly more then I can buy the lumber. I would have to cut 90 boxes perfect before I would make back the money for the planer (using $15 for for the boxes and then buying 1x12 pine for $10) But the lock miter only works if every piece you cut is the same thickness. If I plane the wood to perfection every pieces would be different and I would have to readjust the fence and router height for every board which takes about 10-20 mins and I have to cut several scrap pieces. So I didn't save on any time. It took several hours just to make 5 boxes imagine if I have to joint and plane every piece. 

In conclusion I decided for my sanity I am just going to buy hive bodies from mann lake with free shipping with plenty of advance notice and if I need them right away I'll cut a single rabbet on my table saw. I just wanted to clear up the misconception on the lock miter joint because everything I read about it didn't have anything negative to say about it. 


Here are a few pics of the joint after I cut it.


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## frankthomas

I also cut the ends with a 3/8 x 3/4 rabbet, and leave the sides square. I use Titebond II and coated spiral nails. I also coat the end grain with glue and then 2-3 coats of house paint making sure the end grain is well covered.

Regarding strength of the joint, another consideration is the size and type of your operation. If your a backyarder and will just have a few colonies, your not going to be moving and banging around your gear much. The rabbet joint glued and nailed or screwed will defintely suffice.

In my locale at Menards I can get 1x12x6 standard pine boards for a little over $7 to build a deep. 1x8x6 for a little over $4 to build a medium. A couple bucks more per board for a higher grade board but if I pick careful I can usually get god enough boards out of standard.


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## pjigar

tefer2 said:


> Lock miter joint is one used, bit is $$


I tried lock miter but it is not as strong as rabbet joint. Also no way to use nails/screws for lock miter joint. Do not go down that route!

Rabbet is by far the easiest joint to make for this application and plenty strong with titebond III and staples/screws/nails. I cut my rabbets on the short side using dado blade so that I only have to operate 3 cuts on the same board. Makes things easier with cutting operations.


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## Sour Kraut

Tom Fran said:


> I realize that this question is going to generate a lot of different opinions, but is the rabbet joint sufficiently strong enough when using glue and screws? I think the box joint would be very strong, but it does require a few more steps.
> 
> I welcome your opinions on which joint would be _good enough_ for a hive box. I say _good enough_, because dovetails would probably be best, but probably not necessary.
> 
> I tried to post an image to show what the rabbet joint looks like for those who wouldn't recognize the term, but it doesn't show up in the post???



Well, call me a heretic, but I just use plain old butt joints on my home-built 20 x 20 square ( 12 frame) boxes.

5 screws 1-5/8 in drilled-countersunk holes from the sides into the ends and done

No problems so far.


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## pjigar

Actually rabbet joint is BEST for this application considering the fact that rabbet has less exposed grains compared to box joint. The failure of box joint happens due to rotting and not due to joint separation. Box joint is indeed stronger than rabbet joint but rabbet joint is plenty strong with titebond III and steel fasteners for this application. Rabbet join will NOT fail due to the weight of the honey as long as it is not rotten. Rabbet box are so much quicker to make (cut and assemble) compared to box joints. It takes me 3-4 times longer to cut and assemble box joint boxes.

FWIW I had few early boxes with box joints and some of them are failing at 3rd year. My rabbet join boxes are only in their 2nd year so can't comment on their longevity yet.


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## crofter

"It takes me 3-4 times longer to cut and assemble box joint boxes." from previous post.

That agrees 100% with my experience.


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## Alex Madsen

Has anyone tried a Lock Miter? 

When properly nailed and glued it looks like it would create a nice joint with lots of surface area to bond. 

https://www.rockler.com/rockler-45-...yN9-589tCo1D23f1Anld4WurcHkRwGsEaAnyVEALw_wcB

"The interlocking fingers of our Lock Miter Router Bit provide a strong mechanical locking action that makes it much easier to clamp. There is no tendency for the joint to slide out of alignment under clamping pressure, and the wedged tenons tighten up nicely for a strong corner joint. The increased long grain gluing surface also helps to strengthen the joint over a basic rabbet or butt joint. Machining parts with the Lock Miter Bit is easy—with the bit height set, one part is cut horizontally on the router table, while the corresponding part is cut vertically. The bit is ideal for joining drawer boxes, cabinet parts, and for building 4-sided columns."


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## little_john

Sour Kraut said:


> Well, call me a heretic, but I just use plain old butt joints on my home-built 20 x 20 square ( 12 frame) boxes.
> 
> 5 screws 1-5/8 in drilled-countersunk holes from the sides into the ends and done
> 
> No problems so far.


I agree. We're talking about boxes used to keep the same insects which are perfectly happy to live in rotted-out tree trunks or the most rudimentary of man-made shelters. There's really no need to adopt precision woodworking skills as when making furniture - unless you really want to, of course.
LJ


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## Sour Kraut

little_john said:


> I agree. We're talking about boxes used to keep the same insects which are perfectly happy to live in rotted-out tree trunks or the most rudimentary of man-made shelters. There's really no need to adopt precision woodworking skills as when making furniture - unless you really want to, of course.
> LJ


And to those who wish to spend the time and effort on the 'better' joints.....good for you. I'm glad you have the time and motivation and skill (and tooling) to do so.

My hat is off to anyone with the ability to do those...I'm just a Farm Boy who turned into a half-*ssed woodworker when he started keeping bees


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## 1/33rd

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/aben-plans/6324.pdf
> University of Florida engineered these for the least materials and skills.


Old posts, but I sure wish I could get these plans to be better readable...

I tried searching the site, but didn't find the plans anywhere...

Maybe they have been removed from that site?...

Anybody know how to get to those plans and have them more readable?...

Thanks...1/33rd


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## little_john

1/33rd said:


> Old posts, but I sure wish I could get these plans to be better readable...
> 
> I tried searching the site, but didn't find the plans anywhere...
> 
> Maybe they have been removed from that site?...
> 
> Anybody know how to get to those plans and have them more readable?...
> 
> Thanks...1/33rd


33rd - I've just opened that .pdf in an old version of Opera (which uses Acrobat Reader 4 or 5, if memory serves) and enlarged it to 300% - and it looks very readable to me. If you continue to have difficulty reading it, I could take some screen grabs and convert them to any graphics format you want. just let me know ...
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> I agree. We're talking about boxes used to keep the *same insects which are perfectly happy to live in rotted-out tree trunks or the most rudimentary of man-made shelters*. There's really no need to adopt precision woodworking skills as when making furniture - unless you really want to, of course.
> LJ


+100.

Building a couple of new units here before the winter (totally from recycled/re-purposed materials).
The only new materials in them - screws and Gorilla glue.
At this point, the type of a joint is of least concern.

PS: ok, those old Lang boxes I re-purposed for my project do have both rabbet and box joints, it is a mix of whatever came along.


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## little_john

Sure - I'm with Sour Kraut on this one: I wish I had the time, motivation, patience, skills and equipment to make commercial-quality boxes with fancy joints - and good luck to anybody who does work to that standard.

My only objective is to make boxes quickly, cheaply, and which will last a lifetime ... or rather, *my* lifetime - and when you're well over 70, that may not be all that long - so there's really no point in making 'em to last 50 years 
LJ


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## 1/33rd

little_john said:


> 33rd - I've just opened that .pdf in an old version of Opera (which uses Acrobat Reader 4 or 5, if memory serves) and enlarged it to 300% - and it looks very readable to me. If you continue to have difficulty reading it, I could take some screen grabs and convert them to any graphics format you want. just let me know ...
> LJ


Yea, I gave that a try and when it is enlarged, it is readable. I printed it and it printed to fit a 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper. After it printed, it was more leg able than the computer screen showed it. So, I can manage with the printout. If I have a problem with any of the numbers on the printout, I can refer back to the pdf, enlarge it, and write the measurements on my printout. A bit of work, but will only need to be done once if I don't lose my printout...

Thanks...1/33rd


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## ihor

If one thinks of wood as a bundle of straws providing a tree's lifeblood, then when those straws are exposed, they provide a highway for all manner of life and moisture, and food. Blocking this off to prevent access by decomposers, fungi and bacteria, and any moisture that creates this habitat then you have a strong deterrent. If you treat/this end grain, and lock it in a rabbet mitre (basic table saw), then you have a structure that withstands bowing, cupping, twisting, and checking.


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## ihor

A Lock Miter creates many more glue surfaces and the interlocking characteristics that other joints don't. It is one of the strongest wood joints. Perhaps there was some other issue: maybe in its execution or assembly or other components, in its construction?



pjigar said:


> I tried lock miter but it is not as strong as rabbet joint. Also no way to use nails/screws for lock miter joint. Do not go down that route!
> 
> Rabbet is by far the easiest joint to make for this application and plenty strong with titebond III and staples/screws/nails. I cut my rabbets on the short side using dado blade so that I only have to operate 3 cuts on the same board. Makes things easier with cutting operations.


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## JWPalmer

I do the 3/8" × 3/4" rabbet on my boxes too. 5 nails per side on a medium. Boxes are super strong when glued with Titebond III then squared with a speedy square and clamped to make sure the joints are snug.


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## little_john

ihor said:


> If one thinks of wood as a bundle of straws providing a tree's lifeblood, then when those straws are exposed, they provide a highway for all manner of life and moisture, and food. Blocking this off to prevent access by decomposers, fungi and bacteria, and any moisture that creates this habitat then you have a strong deterrent. If you treat/this end grain, [ ...]


Fully agree with what you write, right up until the point where I've clipped - the end-grain is *the* principle route for water ingress, deterioration and deformation. 

Personally, I always seal the end grain of any exposed woodwork with a layer of 100% waterproof glue (which is similar to your Titebond III, only a little less expensive), and which is allowed to soak well in. Paint then goes on top of that, as well as all outer and inner surfaces of the box.

FWIW, one long-term solution I'm mulling over to eliminate box maintenance is a structure midway between a bee-shed and a stand-alone beehive - where 3 or 4 hives can be grouped tightly together, entrances in opposite directions, under a miniature version of a Dutch Barn. The idea being to keep the lion's share of the weather off the boxes, as well as eliminating the need to make feeder shells or telescopic covers. The roof of this structure will hinge open for access, similar to that of a vehicle's hood ('bonnet' in the UK).
LJ


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## crofter

That will greatly reduce the weather effects but I find it a pain to work hives that close together. That could lead to fewer inspections.


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## johno

I only use rebate or rabbit joints on all my boxes but do not care about the end grain as I now use Advantech for the two ends and any pine I can find for the sides and also glue and staple front and sides of the rabbit. I must admit that I dropped a full honey super onto its corner and had to do some repair work on that medium when I removed the honey. Maybe a medium with box joints might have survived who knows but that box is still in service.
Johno


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