# When do you add pollen supplements to promote brood rearing in winter/spring



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I usually wait until I see the bees on the corn in the chicken barn.

One problem with feeding too early is, if they don't have brood to feed, or at least are close to thinking about seriously rearing brood, they generally will ignore patties and they will just dry up or get sticky/grungy if there is a lot of moisture in the hive.

When they show me they are actively looking for protein, I feed them-in my area that is usually early- mid Feb. if weather and temps have been normal. Feeding them at that time builds them well for the coming Maple flow.

Although I sell a few nucs in spring to help cover my operating costs and feed somewhat to support that early growth, I don't want to build them up too much or too early and have my populations peak too far before the main flow and abundant pollen collection.

_ My timing for stimulative feeding just gives them a slight head start before natural feed sources kick in_. 

As a rule, placing protein directly above the brood nest area is best, but if they are looking for it, placing above honey stores is usually not an issue.


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I am in cold country but I plan to put pollen patties on when I am expecting a flow of natural pollen coming in about three weeks. To be used by the bees, I find the patties need to be within an inch and a half of the brood and If you split the brood boxes and put the patties in the cluster, you can't go wrong. Where you can go wrong is once you start feeding pollen, you need to make sure that the bees don't run out before they have big patches of natural incoming pollen stored. Nothing is more pitiful than bees in a starved and dying daze who have eaten all their open brood because they couldn't feed it or themselves. Putting on the pollen patties will really ramp up the amount of honey/sugar stores they are using. Feeding is a promise and if the promise is withdrawn before they have a reliable income, you are doing much more harm than good.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Can you do it too early and mess things up? 

You can in my climate. I don't know about your climate.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Norcalkyle said:


> Can you do it too early and mess things up? .


No, not where your located, just make sure they have plenty of weight. The patties should not go bad at all if made right and it doesn't matter if they are bring in pollen or not.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Was feeding yesterday in the 50s, noticed that several hives smell like they have started brooding up. Depending on weather I will give them pollen in a few weeks. Still looks like some long cold spells coming I don't them to be confined for very long with pollen sub.


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Keith Jarrett said:


> ...The patties should not go bad at all if made right and it doesn't matter if they are bring in pollen or not.


Keith, I've believed that bulk pollen substitute would have about the same shelf life as flour...What is your view? I bought bulk substitute and froze all that I couldn't use last year. Any problem using it this year? TIA


----------



## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

I've been using patties from last year that were frozen. I thaw them and give them to the bees. They are doing great.

Found out by mistake that my dog likes them too.


----------



## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I quit feeding patties because of beetles.I always find larvae eating on them after a week.Now I just feed dry out in a bucket.Boy do the bees love the dry stuff.


----------



## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I've been pretty consistent here about only feeding patties at the right time and then, not stopping the supply until natural sources kick in. If, like me, you're in an area that has pretty specific seasons when real pollen is available you have to be careful adding a source too early. What you're trying to avoid is a queen deciding that real pollen is available and beginning to build up brood well before she should. If you stop or even if you miss supplying the right amount, you'll be the cause of brood loss. I personally believe that there is a misconception among some beekeepers that because WE need protein and because sometimes bees need protein, then it's a good thing to provide whenever mother nature doesn't do it for us. I believe that's wrong. Early brood means early brood to feed and nurture. Early bees mean an early supply of additional resources such as honey. If you build up early, you'd best be prepared to supply stores early as well. Allow me to re-quote Lauri (as well as add my thanks for these words)....

"_My timing for stimulative feeding just gives them a slight head start before natural feed sources kick in. "

_"Slight" is a key word here. If I give them pollen or substitute, it's only JUST before they can fly and get open fed pollen or substitute. Think Silver or hard Maple. In my area think patches of melting snow where you can find bees landing on the ground to collect water. For me, it's when I tap Maple and see bees on the sap running down the trunk or overflowing the buckets. Anything earlier is NOT good in my book and, as mentioned, may be ignored (mostly due to the temps but sometimes due to the quality of the patty). I guess what I'm thinking is that I prefer to slightly advance and then to augment a protein source and not just provide it simply because it seems like a good idea and I bought some. When I read about beekeepers "feeding" their bees all winter with protein patties or thinking that their bees may starve without the introduction of a protein source it makes me wonder where that idea comes from. I personally think that we lose more colonies to a lack of honey / syrup than we ever do because of a protein shortage and I've had enough deadouts that were pollen rich and honey poor to support that opinion. Feed patties if you want (and, if the timing is right...if you must) but I don't think that all beekeepers have thought this through. 

Finally, remember that just because there are centerfolds in the suppliers catalogs that drum up the benefits of pollen / substitute patties doesn't mean that your bees read those ads too.


----------



## Geno (Apr 23, 2015)

X2!


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Right now is the time to feed them Lauri's sugar bricks and
the patty subs. Don't mix the subs too moist because of the
rains and too much moisture inside the hive. Give them more
bricks and less subs. Mine don't take that much subs because they
prefer the natural bee breads from last Spring going into Autumn. Some will munch on
the patty subs for some reason. This coming Spring I will put in more pollen frames to store these natural stuffs.
Mine are brooding up now compare to a month ago. As more winter bees hatched 
I see more eggs next to the smaller patches of the capped broods. It is a good sign that Spring is coming along with the rains.


----------



## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

beepro said:


> Right now is the time to feed them Lauri's sugar bricks and
> the patty subs.


Maybe in Sacramento but not here. All beekeeping is local.


----------



## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

Mine are Using a lot of pollen sub and pollen patties. Some of the hives we're bringing in an orange pollen today. It was about 60 today and the bees were really active.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

We are lucky in a mild winter environment then.
Where he's at our beekeeping climate should be similar. And I'm taking
advantage of the local resources available at this time combine with the
supplement feeding. They cannot go out to forage because of the rains going on now while
in an expansion mode gradually as the Earth's axis is tilting toward the sun with each passing day.
This is the signal that the daylight hour is getting longer while the night is getting shorter. The bees
are responding to that but the rainy weather did not cooperate. Because the queens are already in an expansion mode here I 
say to give it a try. Many hives died because not having the winter bees to keep it going
until the Spring expansion mode again. A little stimulant feeding should keep the old queen
going a bit even though the hive is shrinking during the winter months. I know that with all the rains this year it is going to be a good bee
year. The big eucalyptus trees are finally blooming from all these rains. So I'm not going to be stingy on
the feeds to allow them to grow some more. For us now is the critical moment to keep them expanding
into March past the almond run. Almost a full frame of new eggs next to the small patch of
the cap winter broods. 6 out of 6 frames look like that now on this
week's hive inspection in the low 50s. I took many pics for future references.


I've posted many pics through out:


----------



## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

The OP isn't as far east as I am, but my hives are brooding up as well. (with patties) I want them to brood up, as the manzanita will be blooming soon and they will need the foragers to bring in the nectar. We have had so many rain days, that they haven't had much opportunity to bring in their own pollen.


----------



## Luv2beekeep (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm not putting on any pollen here in Idaho yet. We still have 4 inches of snow and our first dandelions don't bloom until the middle of March. Most of my bees will be leaving the cellar in about 2 weeks to head to California Almonds. They should get some pollen coming in there real good. Hopefully built right up by the time they come back in March. In the right climate area I would start applying them now.
Ravenseye hit it on the head when he said all bee keeping is local. Whats going on in California now is definitely not going on here. I've been watching the weather in California and it looks like you people have been getting dumped on with rain.


----------



## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

Yes, we are getting a lot of rain. (And a great amount of snow in the mountains). I've had difficulty getting out there to prune my raspberries and grapes because it is raining so often. I'm not complaining, as we certainly need it. I hope all of this rain will mean a great nectar year. Last year was not a good year.

Hives around here have already been leaving for the almonds.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beepro said:


> I've posted many pics through out:


What's with all the insulation, beepro? Sheltering from that hot winter sun you guys have?


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

michkel, what a good strategy to feed them early on.
I have been feeding them little bits and pieces of the
2" patty subs since late October. This is to keep the young
Autumn queens from shutting down so that the winter bees are
there when the summer bees finally died out. It has been working so far.
Now they are all brooding up. Even though we have all these rains most reservoirs
are just 50% below normal whatever that means. So keep them coming.
And when you go to the almond run be sure to bring in extra raincoats
for the Feb. rainy season and an extra pair of boots too. You will need it in
the muddy fields when tending your bees. I've been in the almond fields before
to pick up some bee hives after the almond run.

Haa, ha, Jw. You are too funny. Our hot winter sun sure makes the bees brood up
much faster than other part of the country. You can insulate the hives 
from the outside like Lauri did or you can insulate them from the inside.
Because these are the small nuc hives I put in the thin foam sheets to
save on the cost. Remember that our hot winter sun will make these foam
sheets brittle if you leave them outside exposed to the elements over time.
I can reuse these foam sheets every year too. Part of beekeeping is being
creative when resources are limited. Can you think of something that you can
improve upon in your bee operation?


----------



## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

My bees aren't headed to the almonds, I just have seen many in the area disappearing for the almonds. Then they will be back for the mandarin bloom. I'm sure I'll be seeing the semi trucks full of bees soon.

My bees were foraging/hauling out the dead in the brief rain break yesterday, and now we are back to rain. I'll take all we can get.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beepro said:


> Can you think of something that you can
> improve upon in your bee operation?


Buy most of this part of the state (Iowa), put a big dome over it, and kick everyone else out.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Keith Jarret's advice to you is right on. Also read Randy Oliver's website, www.scientificbeekeeping.com - the part about bee nutrition - several good articles. 

Down in So Cal, the winters are often mild enough that we do not stop feeding from mating nuc's through almond polination. They can invrease from 3 frames of bees in July up to 10 to 16 frames by February 10th. But only the Southern states enjoy winter increase most years. As you go North, timing becomes quite important.

Also, different types of bees populate up at different rates.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Nah, Jw! Your thinking is still too tiny. Need
to think broadly and more creatively say the galaxy or the Universe all
populated with your own bees. Have you seen how large is the Universe yet? Iowa on this map is less than a microscopic germ. And why would you put a dome cap
on it when it is still expanding infinitely? More expansion more bees
to hive them. Sometimes I just wish that I don't see things that
grand and build them smaller to connect them all. Like the homemade oav
gadget under the hive, right now it is into the 3rd phase. I'm using stainless steel instead of aluminum foil and natural gas instead of the small candle flame.
Can you guess how the oa is burning and what the oav look like? How do the mites react to this treatment?
Still it is not perfected for publishing yet. Feel like more room for improvement until I get it right if there is
such a thing with constant improvement. With the mites under control this Spring expansion should be
an easy one once you put more sugar bricks and patty subs on.


----------



## farmer0298 (Jan 22, 2016)

Whats everyones preference on the type of dry pollen substitute? Ive looked at MannLakes "ultra bee" and brushy mountains "Ener-g-plus". Planning on ordering soon and all advice is appreciated. New to beekeeping and have no idea what type to go with.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I use mega bees pollen subs for the last 4 years with good results. Lauri use
beepro subs.
During the summer dearth and yearly Spring expansion is when I use them.


----------



## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I use BeePro.I really cant tell any difference especially when considering the price difference.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

snapper1d said:


> I use BeePro.I really cant tell any difference especially when considering the price difference.


Really, interesting.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

First week in January 2016:









Mid-late January-Dry Bee Pro. I have several pans around the yard:









In 2 weeks I'll be putting on wet patties if temps allow opening of hives, otherwise will continue free choice dry feeding.

After some consideration of formulas, Bee Pro was my first choice for main protein needs. (Along with Brewers yeast for wet patty recipe). Bees are not interested in dry brewers yeast, but love the Bee Pro.

I've never tried any other commercial dry formula because I've been pleased with the Bee Pro results.

I've got bees coming out my ears. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


----------



## mybeeguy (Jan 26, 2016)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Was feeding yesterday in the 50s, noticed that several hives smell like they have started brooding up. Depending on weather I will give them pollen in a few weeks. Still looks like some long cold spells coming I don't them to be confined for very long with pollen sub.


To a second season beekeeper, describe this smell please?


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

How do you describe a smell in words? 

_Very_ warm, earthy, sweet, pungent. Once you smell it, you'll know it.

It's the smell of something amazing developing quietly in the dark, secluded privacy of the colonies interior.

It's the smell of over wintering success.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Humm, the smell of sweet honey mixture with a hint of condensed
milky substance. Sweet, sweet, sweet! Gold and silver combine!!!
Once you put a set of new clothes inside and wear it
to work the next day. You will see why. 
I think Lauri got larvae coming out of her ears! Tee, he!


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

farmer0298 said:


> Whats everyones preference on the type of dry pollen substitute?


While not directed to dry pollen substitutes, this is a good study comparing pollen patties by Randy Oliver:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/a-comparative-test-of-the-pollen-sub/

Both Ultrabee and Megabee were generally the top performers.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

I was ready to order Bee Pro patties, but Mann Lake has the Ultra Bee patties on sale through Feb. 3, so I think I'll try those.


----------



## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

We are about a week from the first bloom. The manzanita have some pink buds on them, so they will be opening soon. My Pluot tree is nearing bloom too.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Ravenseye said:


> If I give them pollen or substitute, it's only JUST before they can fly and get open fed pollen or substitute. Think Silver or hard Maple. In my area think patches of melting snow where you can find bees landing on the ground to collect water. For me, it's when I tap Maple and see bees on the sap running down the trunk or overflowing the buckets. Anything earlier is NOT good in my book and, as mentioned, may be ignored (mostly due to the temps but sometimes due to the quality of the patty).


Ravenseye - are you feeding pollen patties this year? You're a smidge warmer than me - if you are feeding, have you put them on yet?


----------

