# For those who build your own, which table saw?



## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm starting my search for a table saw so that I can start making my own supers and other hive equipment. I would like to stay in the $300 dollar range.
Preferably I am looking for a saw that can handle a 3/4" Dado stack. For those of you who build, what specific brand/model table saw do you use or would you recommend to use?
I would rather purchase something new, but if I come across something used that would be great. So basically I'm looking for general advice so I'll know what specific saws to be on the lookout for.

Thanks
DD


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## bkeech (Oct 1, 2013)

I bought a ridged TS3650 off of craigslist. It had rust and I had to really clean it up. I like the external motor.


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## Knisely (Oct 26, 2013)

Start looking at the Craigs List advertisements in your area to begin getting an idea of what your local market's like. If you go to the website ifttt.com, (if this then that) you can set up an if-then command to send you an email when there's a table saw newly listed on your local Craigslist. I've got a job about a hundred miles from home, so I browse a few different Craigslists to try to find things that I need, and the ifttt has made it possible to jump in there and get some things I've needed before someone else gets in there.

Good Luck, Knisely


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

In the $300 price range, Craigslist will be your friend. I bought this model used:

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-4100-09...9160&sr=8-1&keywords=bosch+worksite+table+saw

This saw gets my recommendation. The fence is very accurate, easy to adjust and slides out very far. Maybe 36"? This saw gets quite a bit of use and has never disappointed.

Shane


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I haven't been in the market for quite a while, but is there *any* new saw for $300 That can take a 3/4 dado?

I will say this - for bee boxes you don't really need a very powerful saw. Softwood, mostly only 3/4 thick. But any table saw is only as good as the fence. It needs to be realibly accurate and square and lock down solid as a rock.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

This ad for a full size Craftsman tablesaw is worth contacting the seller to see if its is still available:
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/tls/4232148963.html

About 40 miles away, $150. If you can get the seller to tell you the model number you probably can determine the arbor length online. Or go see it and remove the blade and check for yourself. Use some of your remaining cash for a new blade and decent stack dado set.

As for general tablesaw advice - IMO - avoid models with blades smaller than 10", and avoid _direct drive_ saws unless you can verify that they have _induction _motors. My preference is a model with a belt drive and an _induction _motor. Usually induction motors will have one or two "bumps" (slightly smaller than a toilet paper core) on the motor housing.


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## DLMKA (Feb 7, 2012)

I bought a JET JWTS-10 contractor saw off craigslist for $100. Needed a blade, throat plate, and belt and minor clean-up and adjustment. Can put 3/4" dado stack on it and has plenty of power. If I was cutting anything harder than pine I might be inclined to wire up to 220v.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

DLMKA said:


> If I was cutting anything harder than pine I might be inclined to wire up to 220v.


I have used my 115V Bosch to cut a lot of 3/4" red oak flooring. No complaints at all going through oak with rip cuts.

Shane


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I have an older 10 inch craftman with a cast iron table and would not trade for a new alum tablesaw. also this is an external motor which I prefer. the older craftsman saws were made by delta.


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks for all the posts. I don't use Craig's list much but I found this for $75 pickup, but I can't find any contact info on the seller or a location. Am I missing something?

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/tls/4297597530.html
Also how critical is a 3/4 dado in building hive equipment? What would be a work around? More than 1 pass?
Thanks


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Click the "contact" button in the upper left of the ad.

3/4" dado capability is not "critical", but if you don't have it some cuts may require 2 passes. For my money I'd keep looking til I found one with 3/4" dado capability.

Here is another one from your area:
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/tls/4238233598.html
If it is still for sale, try offering him $175. Nice looking fence rail - it may be aftermarket.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

You won't get much for $300 new. You will get a better saw off Craig's list. Look for a Delta, Powermatic, or Rigid, older models are very rarely worn out other than arbor bearings. My table saw is probably 70 years old, for instance, and my grandpa's Craftsman small model isn't much newer.

When you go to check them out, look for a solid, easy to move and easy to lock fence -- avoid buying a saw with a bent or damaged fence, nothing else will be right either. You will be able to tell if it takes a dado set by looking at the arbor -- if it sticks out an inch or so past the blade, it will hold a 3/4" or 15/16" stack just fine. Any shorter, don't buy it.

Avoid saws with stamped or heavily perforated tables, they are "contractor's saws" and meant for rough work, the light table is to make them easy to more around. You want a solid, heavy saw with a good table and good fence.

Check the arbor for loose or worn bearings -- if the blade "shakes" or has any roughness in rotation, don't bother. 

Light surface rust cleans up with Scotchbrite and a bit of wax, deep pits make the table rough and you should avoid anything with heavy rust.

Delta tilt top saws are very nice, if small and a bit unhandy. I bought mine because it was cheap and had a huge 110v motor on it, cuts 15/16" dados in end grain effortlessly. Worth every bit of the $80 I paid for it, even though I had to eventually replace the fence rails. It was toppled over at some point and there is a dent in the tubular rail, I finally gave up on trying to get it filed round and replaced it.

Happy hunting!

Peter


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

Interesting, when I followed my own link to the Craig's list item it gives me the option to contact. My iPhone app said 'no info' on all contact buttons.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> and avoid _direct drive_ motors. .


Radar... You and I almost always agree, (on every thing), but, here we are on opposite sides. I have 7 table saws and every one is direct drive. They have made thousands of boxes, bottom boards, inner covers, and tops. Two are set up with dado sets. ( one cuts the box joint and frame rabbet, the other cuts groove in side rail of bottom board and rabbet for tops.) Never had a problem with any of them. 

All except one came from Craig's list, most I paid for any of them was $150.00 I like the older model Craftsmans that begin with the serial number 113. Most were made in the 1990s and up until about 2004. Some very good models are 113.298360, 113.298050 and 113.298051. These saws all have the same table. same miter grooves, so patterns will work on any of them so long as you keep the same blade. I really like using patterns rather than using a fence

I would advise if you plan to build very many bee items, do not rely on a fence. Make a pattern that anchors in the miter groove for your various cuts. That way every box will be the same. No measuring or squaring a fence. I hang my patterns, but, they could be stacked when not in use.

Here is what my patterns look like.









cchoganjr


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## Variable (Nov 18, 2013)

I can not help you with brand and whatnot but a few things I would try to get on the saw:

At least 3/4" for your Dado. Mine can not handle it and I used 3/8th instead. Looks nice too I think but required more cuts per a board....

The slot cut in the top of the table for tools to ride in. Mine has this built in slide thing.... totally sucks!!!! Wiggles and wobbles and is held together with plastic on small extruded aluminum rails..... total crap! I ended up building a sled to mount onto the table so I did not have to re-cut any more ends. 

Dust collection to shop vac.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

I don't even own a table saw, and I whip these out somehow :

http://lakeland.craigslist.org/grd/4297883066.html

.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I admit I have never owned a _direct drive_ table saw, so my comments above are personal preference. But I believe that if I wanted to replace the motor in a belt-driven saw, there is a greater likelihood of finding a suitable motor at a reasonable price than if the saw had a direct drive motor.

While the saws Cleo refers to apparently have direct drive _induction _motors, it appears some other direct drive tablesaw motors are not induction motors and have _brushes_. So I will modify modify my advice to avoid saws that do not have _induction _motors. 

I also agree with Cleo about building a jig or a sled for repetitive cuts. It takes extra time to build the sled, but once that is done all parts will be the same regardless of the quality of your fence.


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## tank (Jun 20, 2013)

I have a ridgid love it i also have a small direct drive saw used it for years did not know what i was missing till i got my rigid. I would go with rigid or craftsman. The 300 is a bad price to set most good saws are 4 or 5 why spend 300 on a not so good saw. I went through the same thing when i got mine. Oh yea unless you are going to move it get a cast deck. Now if i could get a good dado stack for less than an arm and a leg


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I bought a craftsman 113. saw back in 1976 just to build beekeeping equipment and still use it today. There are a few things that it does well and a few others that could be improved. It is a 10 inch model. I've used 12 inch and 8 inch craftsman saws and generally prefer the 10 inch for overall use. I too am biased against direct drive saws, I like the belt drive for flexibility and durability.

1. It handles molding heads and dadoes with ease.
2. It has a 1 hp motor with dual shafts on each end, one to drive the saw, the other to drive a dust collector if I wanted to use one.
3. I run it with an 8 inch thin kerf carbide blade which allows very high cut accuracy. I work to 1/64 inch accuracy on all cuts.
4. Agree strongly about building jigs, slides, and sleds. These are the tools you need most
5. I use the top of the tablesaw for verifying cuts are square and accurate

What is wrong with it?
1. The insert has a gap that is about 1/2 inch wide. I would prefer if it was either 3/16 or 1/4.
2. The extensions on the side of the saw are thin sheet metal, I would prefer the cast iron extensions.
3. The fence adjusts on angle iron strips that I would prefer were twice as long so I could cut on either side of the blade.
4. The legs that I bought with it are a bit flimsy.

I've made a boat load of equipment with my saw over the years and consider it to have been one of the best tools I ever purchased. It is not up to cabinet grade work, but it is perfect for making bee equipment and minor furniture items.

As an fyi, you might find a decent saw on ebay for a reasonable price. Put the below search string in and see what you come up with.

(tablesaw,"table saw")


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I believe that if I wanted to replace the motor in a belt-driven saw, there is a greater likelihood of finding a suitable motor at a reasonable price than if the saw had a direct drive motor.


You are right there. I think that would be a major job. I guess if I ever had a motor go out, I would just get another off Craig's list. I see good saws on Craigs list for $75.00 to $150.00. I normally check Louisville and Nashville when I need something. 

Slightly off thread but, while you are looking for a saw, check the Farm and Garden. you can also find bee supplies on Craigs List, you might decide to buy, rather than build.

cchoganjr


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I. Also like old craftsman saws with the cast iron tables.
4 suggestions.

1. Buy a n older saw for cheap, spend money on a good aftermarket fence. I agree that repetitive stuff is best done with jigs, but you want to be able to make safe accurate cuts.

2. Spend some time learning how to adjust the saw. If you don't know how to align the blade with the slots and the fence to the blade (and know how to check these quickly) you should not be using the saw. If you don't yet understand why you should never use the miter and fence at the same time you should figure this out before using a saw..

3. The older contractor saws like Sears are much safer if you install a blade adjustment kit (the name is escaping me at the moment), otherwise the blade moves when the adjustments are tightened, making adjustment tedious and iffy.

4. Watch a lot of YouTube videos of kickback and shop accidents. Turning on the saw should happen after you run through your task in your head and think about how you can avoid losing a finger, hand, or face.

Deknow


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I admit I have never owned a _direct drive_ table saw, so my comments above are personal preference. But I believe that if I wanted to replace the motor in a belt-driven saw, there is a greater likelihood of finding a suitable motor at a reasonable price than if the saw had a direct drive motor.


You are correct. Craftsman offered direct drive for a few years and gave up on them. The motor will cost you twice the value of the saw when it craps out. Direct drive on industrial grade machines is a different story. The price of these machines hold their value. 

OP what you are looking for is the heaviest saw you can find at the lowest price. That would be used not new. There are a lot of old craftsman saws out there that are hardly used. In the 60's and 70's everyone got the bright idea that they needed a table saw or it was a good present. They were never set up correctly so the fence is out of whack and the blade might be burnt. These are very easy fixes. I don't use a dado and I still have one that I can sell cheap. Make sure the arbor is at least 5/8 in.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deknow said:


> If you don't yet understand why you should never use the miter and fence at the same time you should figure this out before using a saw..


I do it all the time as a stop block. Nothing dangerous at all. You should learn.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I do it all the time as a stop block. Nothing dangerous at all. You should learn.


I have clamped a 1x on the aft end the fence as a "stop". As the board being cut is pushed forward there is a 3/4" gap between the piece and the fence. 

That is the only safe way that I know of to use the miter and fence together...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I do it all the time as a stop block. Nothing dangerous at all. You should learn.


When you use either the fence or the miter with the blade, you are relying on 2 lines to be parallel.

When you use both the fence and the miter with the blade, you are relying on 3 lines to be parallel...if any one of them is off it will cause a problem (inaccurate cut and/or binding).

I can't imagine a reason to _not_ clamp a spacer to the front of the fence if you want to use it as a stopblock for repetitive cuts so that the workpiece isn't in contact with the fence when it is in contact with the blade.

Using both at the same time is poor practice, is dangerous (especially if you haven't _just_ checked the adjustment of everything), is never necessary, and is irresponsible to suggest to anyone do so. 

There is simply no excuse for suggesting anyone (especially someone with a new 'used' tablesaw from CL that may not be experienced) do something that can be so dangerous that is so unnecessary.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

BeeCurious said:


> I have clamped a 1x on the aft end the fence as a "stop". As the board being cut is pushed forward there is a 3/4" gap between the piece and the fence.
> That is the only safe way that I know of to use the miter and fence together...


...I think more specificically, the piece should not be in contact with the stop block and the blade at the same time....it should clear the stop before touching the blade.
deknow


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

deknow said:


> ...I think more specificically, the piece should not be in contact with the stop block and the blade at the same time....


That is exactly what I described.

Or perhaps I should have said "the board TO be cut"


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...not disagreeing with you. Mostly because of the bad advice offered by others I want to be perfectly clear that it is possible to have gap between the workpiece and the fence at the blade, but part of the workpiece could still be in contact with the stop at the beginning of the cut. You want to make sure to avoid this.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...the name of the aftermarket alignment parts for any of these old contractor saws is 'PALS'. If you do get an older saw, definitely get a set of these in the proper size for your saw (some recommend 2 sets for the Sears saws...I haven't done this but it would be a better alignment setup).

No table saw is safe if it isn't aligned properly...and hardly any of them are.

deknow


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Good advice about saws and the importance of a great fence.

I'm a furniture maker with a full shop at my disposal, the one comment I would add to the discussion is if you buy really good equipment and take reasonable care of it, it will always at least hold it's value. And, when it comes to table saw and dado cuts you want plenty of horsepower. 

Don


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Hi Don, I agree completely.

From what I've seen at HD, Lowes, and Sears...I think that if you are going spend $400 or more you can get a very good new saw that will last a lifetime. Anything less will likely still be pretty good and portable (there are lots of good fences on the new saws...extruded aluminum is good stuff), but probably not a lifetime saw.

If you keep your eyes out, you can probably find a cast iron craftsman that doesn't need much for $100 or so, get a good aftermarket fence for $200-$300 (I got a Vega brand), learn to adjust/align it (you need to do this with a new saw as well) and you will have an excellent saw with parts available, easy to replace motor, and a heavy duty workhorse of a saw.

I don't think I would buy a new saw for less than $400 or so unless I thought it was a real deal.

deknow


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

With only $300 I would not be looking for new. Watch craig's list in your area and look for something with a cast iron table. Not a perfect answer but it will get you closer to a good answer. Now add one more 0 to that number and just get an Uni-saw. All problems solved. Less than that and there is a lot you need to know about saws to know if you are getting a good deal. cast iron table is a good reliable one. the rest has to do with the carriage and how well it does it's job. I woudl mention a fence but no saw except the very best come with reliable fences. poor is about the best you can hope for along that line.

Otherwise power will be the next big issue. To little is a big pain.

I recently found a cast iron Craftsman with a rugged carriage. belt drive a bit under powered and a decent fence for $50.I will eventually make this saw one for doing nothing but easy rip cuts or something and get a better saw. but for $50 I almost cannot loose. It gets the job done and does it better than my old $300 saw.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Well I feel good reading this thread. I bought an old (70's model?) Craftsman w/upgraded fence for $85 on Craigslist. I didn’t know that it was such a "keeper". I have been practicing making medium boxes with a dado set and doing OK.

Does anyone know where to get a blade guard/splitter/pawls for it? The old guy that I bought it from said that he never used these safety things. I would feel better if I had it. I checked the Sears manual and they are discontinued. Is there and aftermarket source?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Nabber86.. Try... ereplacement parts.com They are about the best source I have found for any part you need for any brand of power tool. Very fast service. If you have a problem, or end up with wrong part, they will work with you to make it right. I cannot praise them enough for all the things I have bought from them over the years.

cchoganjr


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

Stay tuned.. I have a guy gonna call me back with specifics on an older sears craftsman table saw for $75.00 on Craig's list


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

http://nwga.craigslist.org/tls/4251363472.html

Here's a link to the saw
Thanks


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The link in post #36 does not have any info about the motor, so that is a question. The left part of the table is clearly stamped steel, not cast, so that is a minus. 

A similar price, but with a belt drive induction motor:
http://nwga.craigslist.org/bar/4279730756.html

Both saws appear to be low end models when manufactured, but the current selling price also reflects that. Assuming you want to use a dado set, check the arbor length before you buy. If you buy one of these and don't like it afterwards, there is a good chance you can resell it at a similar price. Not much to lose, assuming you check that that the saw doesn't have any glaring problems before you hand over the cash.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> I do it all the time as a stop block. Nothing dangerous at all. You should learn.


Yes, as long as the miter gauge is between the blade and fence, I don't see an issue with this.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I don't agree Barry, and I doubt you will find anyone that is responsible for teaching (or writing) about using a table saw safely agree with you. It is simply too many constraints to have the blade, the fence and the miter slot/guage all working at once....and it is NEVER necessary.

If you are using the miter properly (with the workpiece firmly held) there is zero to gain from using a fence...and plenty to loose.


deknow


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

Ridgid R4510 contractor saw. Does absolutely everything I need it to do. Lifetime warranty and very mobile. That's important in a small shop. It handles a 3/4 dado with ease. I rabbit joint all my boxes.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Nothing dangerous at all.

I would never use that phrase to describe anything about a table saw...


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

The Model # is 113-240421. The owner went out and measured the arbor past the blade. He said it was a little over 1 inch. He said the saw is in good working order. 
So for $75 and a 30 min. Drive I think I'm gonna take a chance on it. Unless anyone knows of any glaring problems with this model.
I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it... It's only a $75 table saw and all I want it to do is make hive equipment.

Thanks for all the input! I almost bit on a good little $270 general purpose new saw, but it would not have served my intentions as well as this $75 saw. (hopefully)


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Looking at Sears site, the 113-240421 tablesaw is a 10" direct drive saw, but does use an induction motor (the starting capacitor is an available spare part). If you want the owner's manual Sears will sell one for $6.29.

Should be fine - at least start it up to see if there is excessive vibration.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ddawg said:


> The Model # is 113-240421. The owner went out and measured the arbor past the blade. He said it was a little over 1 inch.


That seems a tad short to me. The arbor needs to hold a blade backing plate/bushing (1/4"), 3/4" dado blades, another blade backing plate/bushing (1/4"), and the nut (3/8"). That should be a total of about 1-5/8" min. If it's 1" from a mounted blade, you'll be about 3/8" short. That's my math from here, sitting in my office! 

Now that I think about it, I added the blade stabilizers/bushings. I guess one doesn't have to use them, but I always have.

http://www.midwesttechnology.com/products/Freud-Table-Saw-Blade-Stabilizers--412131--SC%2d001.html


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I would think that measuring from the already mounted blade, either the bushing closest to the motor is already mounted and accounted for, or the arbor is manufactured to have an integral bushing. The nut on my Craftsman saw is 5/16".


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

OK Graham, do the math!  I added up the parts to the outside of the blade only, using the 1" reported amount left. OK, I was off a 1//16"! But one doesn't have to use the bushing on the nut side of the blades. Do you on yours?


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## bugmeister (Feb 26, 2013)

dawg, you probably need to look in the 10" size saw range. make sure that your design can accommodate the width of the dado and the extra HP the dado requires. just took a look at a Makita 8.5" job site 'portable;' I have, thinking it could do the job and it would really be pushing it and I would have to fabricate a custom width plate for the 3/4 in need. I am looking for an old saw that I will setup for a 10 dado blade and leave it bee and use the other for cutting.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, I admit that I substituted a large washer that I got from Tractor Supply for the outer bushing. The washer is thinner than the factory bushing, and I can get the 3/4" dado stack, the washer and the nut fully threaded - but there is no thread to spare. I haven't had any problem with this arrangement. When I use a normal blade I go back to the factory bushing.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> Yes, as long as the miter gauge is between the blade and fence, I don't see an issue with this.


If you don't align the saw and have a sharp blade you shouldn't use it. That being said the best thing to do is use double sided tape and a piece of fine sand paper and stick it to the face of the miter to keep the work from shifting. And the ultimate thing to do is clamp the wood to the miter face. The stop block could be a spacer on the fence or a roller bearing mounted in the opposite miter groove. What is important is that the stop block is a head of the blade and the surface that butts up to the stop block is square to the miter. If you clap your workpiece to the miter and it isn't square the surface will pull away from the stop block or it will jam and you will not be able to feed the board into the blade. What is dangerous is carelessness. If you are careless you shouldn't operate machinery. Wouldn't that relieve a lot of traffic accidents.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The washer is thinner than the factory bushing, and I can get the 3/4" dado stack, the washer and the nut fully threaded - but there is no thread to spare.


Use an adjustable dado and you don't have to worry about the supporting washers.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> If you don't align the saw and have a sharp blade you shouldn't use it.


One shouldn't be using the saw period if it is that bad.



> That being said the best thing to do is use double sided tape and a piece of fine sand paper and stick it to the face of the miter to keep the work from shifting.


I find the pressure applied to the workpiece with my hands is quite adequate. If it's long and narrow, I apply pressure to the fence as most of the workpiece is in contact with it. If it is short and wide, I apply pressure to the miter gauge. I think this procedure is being overly analyzed. In my 35+ years of working on tablesaws for a living, I've never once had an incident doing this.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Use an adjustable dado and you don't have to worry about the supporting washers.


Many woodworkers find that adjustable dado units are inferior to a stacked dado set. 

If I am not mistaken, Ace has offered in other threads to sell his adjustable dado. Perhaps he wishes to use the proceeds to buy a stacked dado set?


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

Barry said:


> That seems a tad short to me. The arbor needs to hold a blade backing plate/bushing (1/4"), 3/4" dado blades, another blade backing plate/bushing (1/4"), and the nut (3/8"). That should be a total of about 1-5/8" min. If it's 1" from a mounted blade, you'll be about 3/8" short. That's my math from here, sitting in my office!
> 
> http://www.midwesttechnology.com/products/Freud-Table-Saw-Blade-Stabilizers--412131--SC%2d001.html


Thanks for your help, I'm trying to get my ducks in a row before I go look at the saw.
Several people have recommended the old 113 saws, would the arbor on this one be different? The owner did not give an exact measurement on the arbor just 'a little over an inch', when I go look at the saw Friday I should have about 1 5/8 distance from the mounted blade?
Also, if he doesn't have a dado plate molding is there a work around? Sears website says they are discontinued.
Thanks


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Very happy with my Bosch portable table saw


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

You don't need a plate to use a dado blade if you build a sled as several posts have recommended.


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> You don't need a plate to use a dado blade if you build a sled as several posts have recommended.


Is there a source or plans for these sleds and jigs?
I'm not a rookie to woodworking, but I am a total newbie to table saws. Luckily I have an uncle with many years experience only an hour a way. I have a good stock of assembled equipment, so I'm in no hurry. I'm not planning on building anything till I get some instruction and practice.
Thanks


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The details of a sled or jig will vary depending on what component you are cutting and the spacing of the miter slots on your saw table. Lots of links to photos of sleds by _Ross _in this thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?206000-Hive-making-equipment

And also this longer thread with photo contributions from multiple members:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?276678-dado-fingers-question


You can find more threads with photos by doing an image search of Beesource. Paste this phrase into a regular Google search box:
sled site:beesource.com

Then click the "_Image_" tab. Try modifying the search word "sled" to "jig" for more.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Ddawg said:


> Also, if he doesn't have a dado plate molding is there a work around? Sears website says they are discontinued.


As others have said, if you use a sled, you don't need a dado. 

But, if you use the same dado to make the frame rest rabbet, then the insert is nice to have. I did not have the dado insert either, so, I bought a normal insert and simply ground out the size with a dremel tool, and finished with a file. Or you can take your saw model number, go to ereplacementparts.com, and get the part number for your table. From that you can see what other saws use the same table. Then check those model numbers for the dado insert if you don't want to make one yourself. Also check on e-Bay. I have seen the dado inserts listed there.

Good Luck.

cchoganjr


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

a lot of saws are parted out and sold on e-bay. you should find an insert with no problem.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> One shouldn't be using the saw period if it is that bad.


I agree with Deknow here. Either from abuse or mass production I have found the saw blade is not parallel with the miter grooves in the table. Fences are all over the place. I have also seen miters that are not pinned at 90 degrees to the grooves in the table. The best thing for a novice is to throw it away.
Barry, the discussion was about binding when you use the miter and the fence. It should never happen if things are lined up and the workpiece doesn't move on the miter. Sand paper or emery on the miter surface really helps to keep that from happening and gives you much better cuts with the miter without a lot of grip force. Your grip might be three times what someone who has never used a table saw has.



Rader Sidetrack said:


> Many woodworkers find that adjustable dado units are inferior to a stacked dado set.


Oh yeah extremely important when building bee equipment.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ddawg said:


> the old 113 saws, would the arbor on this one be different?


Not familiar with that saw. I had a 10" Craftsman back in the 70's but don't know what model it was.



> The owner did not give an exact measurement on the arbor just 'a little over an inch', when I go look at the saw Friday I should have about 1 5/8 distance from the mounted blade?


No, you should have about 1-5/16" from the mounted blade *IF* you use a stabilizer bushing next to the nut. If not, the 1" should just about do it depending on how wide the nut is. Rader says his is 5/16" wide. Maybe ask the guy what the measurement of the arbor is past the nut with a mounted blade on it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I agree with Barry's suggestion. If a regular blade is already mounted, and you want to verify that a 3/4" dado stack set will fit, all you need is an additional 5/8" of arbor thread beyond the _end _of the nut.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I would be most concerned with the diameter of the arbor then the length. Stacked blades can be off balance because they are independent blades. The worst thing you would have to do is take two passes. Just because you put a 3/4 stack on the arbor doesn't mean you have the HP to push it through. Staked blades require much more HP than a variable dado, just so you know.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Staked blades require much more HP than a variable dado, just so you know.


Do you have a reference to support this? :scratch:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

In that case Ace, I think he should be concerned about the HP, not the dia. of the arbor. It's only on newer saws that the arbor dia. has changed. Yes, stacked dado will required more HP. Less vibration with stacked dado. I've used both but have only had stacked on my own saws. In the end, one has to decided what they are and are not willing to live with given the particular tool's limitation.

OK, after seeing Rader's post, I take back my "Yes" until further notice. Although I can see a case made for both sides of this one.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

OK, I'll stick my neck out.   Why should a stacked dado require more HP than a wobble dado?

If there is no wood being removed (before any cut) the HP to rotate the blade should be the same, isn't it? Then when you start cutting the rate of travel through the board is dependent on HP available, but why should that HP requirement change with blade style?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

http://www.woodworkweb.com/woodwork-topics/woodworking-tools/300-using-a-stacked-dado-set.html

Scroll down to just below the video and you will find the comments on blade size vs. HP of the saw.

1.5 HP or less go with a 6 inch dado set. 1.75 HP and more and you can go up to the 8 inch stack set.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks for that explanation, DY. It makes sense that a larger diameter blade is capable of cutting wood faster than a smaller diameter blade.


But I submit that HP required is a function of the amount of wood removed in a given time period. A larger diameter stacked dado allows the user to feed the board faster than a smaller dado, and _that _is why more HP is appropriate.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> But I submit that HP required is a function of the amount of wood removed in a given time period. A larger diameter stacked dado allows the user to feed the board faster than a smaller dado, and _that _is why more HP is appropriate.


With a wobble blade, only a single tooth width (1/8") of material is being removed at any given time. There are what, 12 to 18 teeth per blade rotation? Spread this out over the width of the cut (3/4") and each tooth is working pretty hard. With a stacked, you have the same blade type except you have two of them and all the teeth are removing material from the same 1/8" spot. So 1/4" of material is being removed far easier, and the chippers give you two teeth per revolution, which is probably equal to what a wobble gives you. I'll retract my "Yes." Ace?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> In that case Ace, I think he should be concerned about the HP, not the dia. of the arbor.


They are one in the same. As the HP increase so too will the diameter of the arbor.

Barry, use common sense. Rader doesn't have any. A variable dado cuts a 1/8 path through the wood regardless of its setting. A stacked dado cuts what ever the stacked width is. To make matters worse the stacked dado will gum up in sappy woods like pine because it doesn't have the chip clearance that a variable dado has and most likely the blades are dull. The blades are dull because they are not carbide tipped and people are going to avoid sharpening them because of the expense.

Tell me something. Do you see burn marks on the side of your dado cuts. If you do it is because the blades are dull OR the arbor diameter is too small and the arbor is bending. If the arbor snaps because of fatigue you won't be able to duck fast enough.

Seriously, I would not recommend someone with little experience use dado stacks on home owner type table saws. I know they sell them.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> With a wobble blade, only a single tooth width (1/8") of material is being removed at any given time.


That is exactly why the HP required is so much less. It is basically the 1/8 blade the saw was made for.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> If you do it is because the blades are dull OR the arbor diameter is too small and the arbor is bending. If the arbor snaps because of fatigue you won't be able to duck fast enough.


Ace, are stacked dado blades available to fit arbors smaller than 5/8"?



> Seriously, I would not recommend someone with little experience use dado stacks on home owner type table saws. I know they sell them.


Homeowner type saws? How do you define this?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> That is exactly why the HP required is so much less. It is basically the 1/8 blade the saw was made for.


Width is only one element that is in play here. The number of cutters (teeth) per rotation is another.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I didn't see any explanation of horsepower required for different styles of dado blades in post #70!  :lpf:




:gh:

... common sense ...


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

It has a lot to do with the weight of the stack and what it takes to get it going. once started a stacks weight starts to work to it's advantage. Then think of the wide cut you are making. if you get right down to exactly how a dado is supposed to cut you find out it is not as bad as it might seem. A dado is made to make that cut in a series of cuts. not putting to much resistance on the saw at one time. My new to me saw will moan a bit while trying to get a full stack turning. once up and running it does just fine. I have an 8 inch set. Saw is just a tad under powered for it but not so much I cannot deal with it.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Acebird... I rarely use an adjustable dado, but, it is my understanding that the adjustable dados do not cut nice flat grooves, but rather the seat of the groove is rounded. Has that been your experience with them. I have never tried them all that much, when I did, having a flat groove was not important for what I was doing.

cchoganjr


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> The number of cutters (teeth) per rotation is another.


No the number of teeth does not make much difference. The diameter of the blade will change the torque required which affects HP. HP = torque X speed (RPM). The feed will affect torque and this is where the number of teeth come in. So if you have less teeth you feed the wood in slower otherwise each tooth takes a bigger bite.

I don't know what is available today but some blades use to have bushing inserts.




> Acebird... I rarely use an adjustable dado, but, it is my understanding that the adjustable dados do not cut nice flat grooves, but rather the seat of the groove is rounded.


Yes but who cares for bee equipment? It will just pocket more glue. What you don't want to do is set the warble for 3/4 width and make a rabbit joint only 1/2 inch by cutting off the end of the board.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> No the number of teeth does not make much difference.


Teeth on a saw blade primarily determine the fineness of the cut and how much shear force is exerted in the wood. More teeth equal less splintering, cracking, and shearing. Some wood I've cut required 60+ teeth to get a good cut. Plywood often splinters badly if regular blades are used. This is why plywood blades typically have very high numbers of teeth.

I've used a 16 tooth blade on my tablesaw to cut pine, but prefer between 24 and 36 teeth for most woodwork. If I were building furniture, I would want 36 teeth or above, especially if the wood splintered easily.

A very sharp blade reduces hp required. This is one place where I see a lot of mistakes. Either keep your blades sharpened or purchase new blades that are super sharp. It will save a ton of time and effort and reduce risk of injury when cutting wood. I save old carbide tipped blades for cutting down supers and such where nails are likely to be hit. This is the only time I deliberately use a blade that is not in excellent condition.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Acebird... I rarely use an adjustable dado, but, it is my understanding that the adjustable dados do not cut nice flat grooves, but rather the seat of the groove is rounded.




Acebird said:


> Yes but who cares for bee equipment? It will just pocket more glue.


Adjustable (wobble) dados will produce a rabbet that has a _cupped _bottom, as Cleo noted above.
 
Ace seems to think that a _cupped _bottom to a joint makes no difference to joint strength, but that is _not _borne out by testing. The link below is a _Fine Woodworking_ test of various glues, and it is clear that the strongest glued joint is a tight fitting joint.




> With the exception of hot hide glue on maple, all glues were slightly weaker on loose joints compared to tight and snug ones.
> 
> http://www.oldbrownglue.com/pdf/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf


Any joint with a cupped bottom (i.e. made with a wobble dado) will not be as tight fitting as it would be if the dado had a flat bottom (i.e. stacked dado).


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## bowhuntaz (Dec 30, 2013)

Acebird said:


> I do it all the time as a stop block. Nothing dangerous at all. You should learn.


The reason it's not done is that it's likely that the cutoff will pinch between the fence and the blade, which will either send the cut off piece flying back at you at the speed of light right into the family jewels, or bend the blade, rendering it trash. 
Using the fence as a stop is fine, but clamp a piece of scrap to the fence to give the cut off someplace to go without getting launched. 

As for a specific table saw, that's like asking what ice cream someone likes. 
Chevy, Ford, or Dodge? 
All have pros and cons. 
Personally, I like heavier cabinet type saws. 
Why? They generally cut cleaner, straighter, and are easier to tune. 
A well tuned saw will cut a glue line edge. That's an edge that you can glue up to make a panel, and not have a ghost glue line in the finished panel. 
Not so important when you're building painted items, but very essential when making furniture. 
Direct drive saws? Scrap metal in my opinion. Someone decided to flip a circular saw over, bolt it to a table, and call it a table saw. 
If you cut material that's thick, or hard, you'll bog it down and burn up that motor. 
For weekend warriors, that's one thing. 
Cast iron table is essential. The slots in the table are very useful for homemade jigs and fixtures when you need to make a bunch of identical parts, true miters, and angled cuts. 
Get the longest fence you can. 
A long fence makes ripping full sheets of plywood easier, and your cuts will be cleaner and straighter. Fighting with a 40 pound sheet of plywood on a contractor's saw isn't fun. 
Get enough power for what you're doing. 
3hp is generally adequate for most woodshop tasks. I've run smaller, and I've run bigger, and yes, bigger is definitely better. 
In the end, though, it's your choice, based on needs and budget. 
Get as much saw as you can for the money you have available. 
You'll be happy you did.

On the topic of blades, assuming a 10" blade, a 36 tooth is a good general purpose type blade. 
It will do everything you ask of it, but it really doesn't excel at anything. 
For ripping, I like a 40 tooth thin kerf.
Cross cutting, I like a 60 or 80 tooth. 
When I had my furniture shop, I kept a 40 tooth in the tablesaw, and an 80 tooth in the miter saw and a 60 in the radial arm saw. 
I always kept 2 or 3 extra blades on hand for each saw, freshly sharpened and ready to go. 
That way, if I trashed a blade, or dulled one out, I had a backup and wasn't running to the store 50 miles away. 
Most folks get acceptable results from a 40 tooth blade across the board. 
It all depends on the level of precision you're looking for, and what you consider acceptable.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

as fosion power states the most important key is a sharp blade. root co used to make bee equip. (at the time dadants only competition) they made frames of the highest quality. thier secert was one key employee who only sharpened blades. the finish was so smooth that every piece seemed sanded. the wobble blade may work but it cuts sideways as well as ahead at the same time. It hacks it way thru the wood. kind of crude.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

actually, The HP of the motor isn't really a big deal. What you really need to pay close attention to is the amps of the motor. The higher the amps the better. Stay away from saws with 10-11 amps. Try and make sure you get AT THE VERY LEAST 13 amps...15 would even be better. I was a carpenter in a former life, and when it comes to power tools...amps are the key.

also like others have said, you will want to make sure the arbor bolt is long enough for the dado sets...I think if a wobble will fit, then a stacked set will also fit, and you can decide which one you like the best.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Daniel Y said:


> 1.5 HP or less go with a 6 inch dado set. 1.75 HP and more and you can go up to the 8 inch stack set.


Daniel and others..... We need to caution new woodworkers here to check how high their blade will extend. If you build a sled for your box joint, some saws will not adjust high enough to cut the box joint. It will require an 8 inch dado set.

If I were going to use sleds I would just go ahead and get an 8 inch set.

cchoganjr


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Just for I threw the dado on and cut a pass full width 13/16+. It cut like butter through hard rock maple with less vibration then the 10 inch blade I took off to test this thing. Makes sense because the dado is much smaller in dia.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Dado002_zpse0d58930.jpg

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Dado001_zps407dc17b.jpg

At maximum setting the sides will not be exactly 90 and the bottom is a tad cupped. I miked up about a .010 ~ in cup.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> The higher the amps the better. Stay away from saws with 10-11 amps. Try and make sure you get AT THE VERY LEAST 13 amps...15 would even be better. I was a carpenter in a former life, and when it comes to power tools...amps are the key.


I used to be an electric motor service technician. While I get your point, I have to disagree with the too broad statement. A series motor such as most skillsaws or drills can be compared based on amps. This cannot be done with either induction start induction run or capacitor start induction run motors such as are common on tablesaws. The capacitor start induction run motor has excellent startup torque and high efficiency while running. This type motor is common on Craftsman saws. Induction start induction run motors are also used on many craftsman saws because they are cheaper to make but reasonably durable. They have a serious weakness because startup torque is low.

These motors should be compared based on output horsepower, not on amps. As a general rule of thumb, an 8 inch table saw needs a minimum of 3/4 HP in a capacitor start motor and 1 HP for induction start. A 10 inch table saw needs a 1 HP capacitor start and 1.5 HP induction start. A 12 inch table saw needs at least a 2 HP capacitor start and 3 HP induction start. These are "minimum" ratings, a larger motor has advantages in terms of cutting faster and less problems with binding and burning wood edges.

My 10 inch craftsman table saw has a 1 HP capacitor motor that has cut thousands of board feet of wood over the last 38 years. If and when I have to replace it, I will go for a 1.5 or 2 HP capacitor motor.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> My 10 inch craftsman table saw has a 1 HP capacitor motor that has cut thousands of board feet of wood over the last 38 years. If and when I have to replace it, I will go for a 1.5 or 2 HP capacitor motor.


I would be curious as to the amps on the motor that is on it?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

NewJoe, It stands to reason that the manufacturer of hudnreds of thousands of pieces of equipment over the span of decades did not choose the wrong unit of measurement of their equipments power.

Amperage dos not even have anything to do with the power equipment puts out. it has more to do with what it can withstand.

You recommend a 15 amp motor that will most likely be plugged into a 115 volt 14 gauge duplex outlet that is protected by a 15 amp breaker. I woudl prefer a 10 amp motor that generates 1.5 hp over one that is 13 amp and generates 1 hp.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

replaced post with following post


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

Daniel Y said:


> NewJoe, It stands to reason that the manufacturer of hudnreds of thousands of pieces of equipment over the span of decades did not choose the wrong unit of measurement of their equipments power.
> 
> .


here is some other information from another source (not me). http://professional-power-tool-guid...-guides/power-tool-amps-horsepower-and-volts/

*Amps*

A tools amp rating indicates the electrical current load a motor can carry for an indefinite period of time without degrading the insulation and other electrical compounds of the motor. In a UL tested tool, the motor is tested to verify that it can run or operate below a specific temperature while current or electricity is flowing through it. So in essence how much can the motor absorb and dissipate heat. Motor speed is important. The faster a motor can spin the more air it can draw through the motor to help cool it down. So amps measures or indicates the maximum time a tool can continuously run without exceeding the temperature limits. Amps basically measure how effectively the motor cools itself, not how much power it has. With this in mind, more amps can be good because motors will run longer and won’t heat up as fast. Remember heat is what kills a motor. Have you ever popped a circuit breaker on the panel? This can be annoying, but it protects your tools. Notice when you’re popping the breaker your tool is probably bogging down causing more heat to build up and in return drawing more amps.

*Horsepower*

Horsepower is a mathematical expression of the relationship between speed and torque. Again horse power is misleading because it is a mathematical equation and the manufacture can either use sustained or stalled toque; and thus you can get two different numbers. Most manufactures use peak power (stalling point) as the higher number. This is a bogus measure because it shows the highest output possible. If you did that to your tool you would burn the motor out very quickly because of the high current and high heat build up. So in reality it is not a realistic number measure




I certainly am no expert, But over the last 30+ years I have owned and used a lot of power tools, several of which have been table saws.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

NewJoe said:


> So in reality it is not a realistic number measure


It is a realistic number when you are comparing motors of the same age. No different than lawn mower engines. A standard is set and everyone has to go by that standard.

In the normal operation of things current (Amps) relates to torque. Typically the more amps a motor draws the more torque it will put out. Everything has its limits so if you pull down the rpms of the motor below its normal operating speed it will draw more current with less torque. You can get into this situation very easily with a stack blade set. If your motor (single phase) is having a hard time coming up to speed it is in this situation and it is not good.

This is a good graphic representation:

http://elpaso.apogee.net/md/mfcttor.asp


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

Acebird said:


> It is a realistic number when you are comparing motors of the same age. No different than lawn mower engines. A standard is set and everyone has to go by that standard.
> 
> In the normal operation of things current (Amps) relates to torque. Typically the more amps a motor draws the more torque it will put out. .


The statement about HP not being realistic, was not me speaking...this was a quote from the referenced website.

When you say Amps relates to torque....isn't torque what most of us interpret as power? Isn't torque what would give a blade the "power" to complete a task?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> In the normal operation of things current (Amps) relates to torque. Typically the more amps a motor draws the more torque it will put out.


Not true! :no:

Consider an induction motor on a tablesaw that is set up for 115 volt operation and draws 15 amps. Lets presume that that combination results in 1.5 HP.

Now change the connections on that motor so that it is set up for 230 volts (and plug it into the appropriate plug). That motor STILL produces 1.5 HP, but the amps to do so have been cut in _half_ to 7.5 amps (disregarding the _minor _efficiency gained in using a higher voltage). 


Or, if you look at it going the other way - changing from 230 volts to 115 volts, the amps required have been doubled, but with _no change_ in ("torque") horsepower results.


:gh:

In relatively simple terms, the horsepower output of a motor is calculated as a product of (amps * voltage / (efficiency factor)). Note that (volts * amps) is a calculation of watts. Here is a reference:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrical-motor-horsepower-d_653.html

.


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks for everyone's Help! I went looked at the saw today. It definitely needs a little TLC, but it runs quiet, straight and true and the blade felt solid as a rock. The fence was straight and solid. This saw will not have any problems cutting anything I need. I still won't know for sure about the dado till I try. The nuts on the arbor look like their one solid piece with the stabilizing washer. I ended up picking it up for $65.
But ya know what??? I've spent more than $65 eating out with my wife, and didn't even like the meal. 
Either way, I will get a lot of use out of this saw.

Thanks again,
DD


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

Glad you got a saw! even if you can;t run a dado, you can make everything you need as it is. I make everything, frames too, and don;t use a dado set. The dado set would make thigns faster for me at some stages, but I'll likely never exceed a dozen hives, so I"m okay with spending a little bit of time here and there.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Congratulation on purchasing a saw! 

Note that with a stack dado set, if you don't have enough arbor length for a full 3/4" dado cut, you can put on fewer chippers and still make it work - but you may need two passes.

The chippers are the odd looking blades (2 or 4 arms) that go between the fully formed outer blades in a stack set.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Ddawg said:


> But ya know what??? I've spent more than $65 eating out with my wife, and didn't even like the meal. DD


If you are taking your wife out to eat, it isn't the meal that counts. It is the points.

About the dado. If you are only going to make equipment for yourself, make 1/2 inch box joints, or make 7 /16 inch. Number of joints doesn't really matter unless you are trying to maintain industry standard appearance. 

cchoganjr


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ddawg said:


> I still won't know for sure about the dado till I try.


And if you can't get 3/4" worth on there, make 5/8" dados.


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> About the dado. If you are only going to make equipment for yourself, make 1/2 inch box joints, or make 7 /16 inch. Number of joints doesn't really matter unless you are trying to maintain industry standard appearance.
> 
> cchoganjr


I never even considered that!! Yes I am only making equipment for my personal use. 

Thanks


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Part of the reason or I should say advantage of making it yourself is making it your way. More finger on a box joint. smaller bottom bars or larger if that is what you want. thicker top bars.

What I would not stray away from is the overall outside dimensions of the boxes. Sooner or later you are going to get some standard commercial made equipment and you will most likely want it to match. But you can make extra deep frame rests and fill it back in with angle iron if that is what you want. You can make a whole assortment of corner joints not just box joints. You may find you like a splined or lock miter joint the best. Figure out how to make that all one piece double deep box. the perfect brood nest solution. Make an improved entrance reducer.

You may have opened a whole can of works buying a saw.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

NewJoe said:


> When you say Amps relates to torque....isn't torque what most of us interpret as power? Isn't torque what would give a blade the "power" to complete a task?


Mechanical power is torque times speed. Electrical power is current times voltage. So to simplify you can think of current being the torque factor and voltage being the speed factor.
For a DC (direct current) motor amps relates directly to torque almost exactly. It is practically a straight line curve. An AC motor doesn't follow exactly because there is frequency involved but it does follow in the portion of the curve around the stated RPM of the motor. It is only when you pull the motor down (out of phase) that bad things happen. Variable speed AC drives (inverters) work by changing the frequency and voltage. In so doing the HP varies with the speed. For the most part any AC motor can be variable speed by using an inverter (AC drive).


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Mechanical power is torque times speed. Electrical power is current times voltage. So to simplify you can think of current being the torque factor and voltage being the speed factor.
> For a DC (direct current) motor amps relates directly to torque almost exactly. It is practically a straight line curve. An AC motor doesn't follow exactly because there is frequency involved but it does follow in the portion of the curve around the stated RPM of the motor. It is only when you pull the motor down (out of phase) that bad things happen. Variable speed AC drives (inverters) work by changing the phase and voltage. In so doing the HP varies with the speed. For the most part any AC motor can be variable speed by using an inverter (AC drive).


ok?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Variable speed AC drives (inverters) work by changing the phase and voltage. 


Variable speed in an induction motor is accomplished by varying _frequency_, not _phase_. 

And in a variable frequency drive (VFD) induction motor, an _inverter _is indeed part of the process, but an inverter simply converts DC to AC. If the supply power is AC to start with, then there is also a rectifier to convert the AC to DC, and a controller to set the appropriate frequency for the AC output of the inverter at the frequency needed for the speed desired.

In VFD drives the inverter needs to be designed to output AC power at a _variable _frequency called for by the control circuitry, which will vary as the desired speed of the motor varies. 

In ordinary inverters such as those that you might use with 12 volt car batteries the AC output frequency is fixed at 60 hz to match residential line power.

It does seem unlikely that any Beesource members will encounter a _tablesaw _with a variable speed induction motor!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

My make it myself factor may have altered drastically. I met a guy yesterday that has over 20 years either running or owning his own sugar pine mills. I started talking to him about getting in contact with some of them in regard to purchasing end mills. he asked me how long. when I told him the longest piece in a hive is 20 inches. he sort of rolled his eyes and smiled. then he said he can get truck loads of that stuff. random widths though. Btu if it drops the cost of the lumber as much as I think it can. Commercially made boxes may never be on my list again.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Daniel, as I recall, that is exactly how Michael Palmer gets his lumber.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> >
> Variable speed in an induction motor is accomplished by varying _frequency_, not _phase_.




You are correct, I used the wrong term.


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