# Bees adapting....



## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

>>7) I can see my SMR/VHS bees (comb) being cleaned out much more than my non SMR/VHS bees. And although I see a lot of hype and over marketing, I also see very distinct traits that are worth pursuing.

Question. I am going to get an SMR/VSH breeder next spring to incorporate into my stock.

In what ways do you see alot of hype and over marketing?

Also... do you see SMR/VSH bees in general handling SHB better than the others? I don't have SHB (yet) but others around me do. So I know I will be dealing with it at some point.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Dan,
I think my comment is from an industry "hype". Not necessarily from a particular breeder. Perhaps a "false hope" would be more proper. I think we as an industry think that if we put this marketed product or that product....that results will magically appear before us.

I think hygienic bees work off of several factors. A good solid overall IPM and management strategy is also key. As example...hygienic bees work best when they can maximize their efforts for longer periods of time in any given day. A hive in shade or a poorly selected damp site, will no doubt be at a disadvantage over a hive in the sun. Everyday tasks such as nectar collection, housecleaning, and grooming is maximized when the bees can get on with those daily tasks for longer periods of time. A hive that has morning sun will break cluster earlier and get on with using those traits we all want them to take advantage of. But for many bad beekeepers, getting any type of bee will result in less than ideal returns.

I also think SBB work well with more hygienic lines of bees. For some to suggest they see little difference when non-hygienic bees are being used, seems a little off to me.

So I see this hype really as just expecting way too much from just having your bees one type or another. But I also don't agree with some of the marketing hype with individual marketing ads. I won't go further in naming names.

I see a lot of crossover traits, but its not standard. The thing is, that's its hard to select for everything we need to be selecting for nowadays. I have seen some great hives with low mite counts and are healthy but have shb. And I have seen hives that go after SHB, but have mite issues. I think the best thing to do is have all your hives smr/vsh and then once you have shb, then select the ones that handle them the best.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Forgot to ask some other of my questions.

You mention that your smr/vsh hives show more immature mites on the sticky board as I would expect.

However, are you showing overall improved mite counts in smr/vsh hives vs non-smr/vsh hives?

Also how do your Russians compare in hygenic traits, mite counts, and SHB in comparison to the SMR/VSH hives? I understand these can be hive specific but have you noticed any overall trends yet?

Thanks.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Dan,
Sure wish I could answer those for ya... 

This was the third year that I added smr/vsh breeders to my yards. My nuc yards are hard to guage due to the make-up and change over of the nucs. This presents good mite counts and but really does not paint a clear picture.

My main yards, used for pollination, comb building, and honey are a mixture of overproduction of what I breed to sell, but also many other queens from such places as Olivarez, strachans, etc. I don't keep records to actually say what is what, although I usually requeen by the yard.

The nuc yards I can tell you the history and where a queen was grafted from, etc. I just don't have my program to keep track of every hive out in the outyards. I will say that I have culled most of my italians out. But the queens that are in those hives are from my breeding efforts or from a very select few breeders. I would like to change them all over to a few queen sources, but it seems year after year, it never gets done.

When I do mite counts, or even sugar shakes, I usually randomly select hives. Maybe a couple from each apiary. I don't keep track of which. I'm looking for trends, etc.

When I do spring evaluations on my nucs, I know what the queen line is. But mites are usually not a problem at that time. I actually failed more queen/hives this past spring due to a wax moth larvae going unchecked, rather than mite issues. 

Ps. And Dan...this is not the time to call anyone out  I was waiting for you to start that ball.


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## Aisha (May 2, 2007)

This is a great post, Bjornbee. You have made some keen observations. 

I have only had two queens so far and I already notice behavioral differences, like washboarding. Bees from my first queen didn't do it at all. Not one bit! The bees from my second queen just love to sway and swob the deck.

Keep up the good work!


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

bjorn sezs:
I find it interesting that some think that resistance will take "more than a lifetime". 

tecumseh replies:
there 'should' be different time projection in regards to a 'natural' setting vs selection. in regards to either... how long it takes is how long it takes.

it would seem to me that some of your observation is in regards to individual hives 'behaviors' that are displayed at various intensities.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

well I have never treated a hive in anyway or ever taken mite counts, I am going on 5th year with my bee's and this is the behavior I have seen, never heard of any others ever talking about this behavior so here goes....

in early spring I have seen this the last 2 years, I walk out to my hives and seems it last for 2-3 days, the landing boards will be covered with bee's, seems the first drones have hatched and what I see is that any bee with a mite on it is dragged out of the hive and dropped, even bee's with messed up wings, the ground will have seems like 100-300 bee's on the ground and every one will have a mite on it or something wrong with it like bad wings (only seen about 5 with messed up wings), seems my girls don't uncap larva and haul them out, they let them hatch then drag them out, out of 24 hives about 10 does this, never seen the others do this, these are my feral hives that do this, 2 of the 10 are mother hives and the other 8 hives I raised from these 2, but when I first seen this I thought it was robbing at first then I got to thinking why are they kicking out the drones and then seen drones walking in and out the hive not being bothers, then I watched for awhile and then inspected a bunch that was on the ground I seen they had mites on them, count about 20 that was dragged from the hive and dropped that never touched the ground and they had mites so I guest this is the way they clean the hive in the first of the year, this is the only time of year I have seen this behavior....


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I now have three Russian X SMR breeder queens in my apiary. These colonies had a significant mite burden at the time of requeening (>25 in 72 hours). Mite falls are now about 6 per a week with a larger number of bees present in the colonies. While these colonies are not the best honey producers, I would submit that they are supremely well adapted to varroa. They exhibit signs of hygienic behavior similar to what Bjorn described and are exceptionally gentle.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> any bee with a mite on it is dragged out of the hive and dropped...
> my girls don't uncap larva and haul them out, they let them hatch 
> then drag them out...

This would be interesting to film.
When can one see this behavior?


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Jim Fischer said:


> >
> This would be interesting to film.
> When can one see this behavior?



Jim, I have been asked to film it this coming year by a bunch of people, I am going to try to film it this coming spring (I have only seen this in early spring during first drone hatching), the thing is I have to catch it when it happens so I will have to walk by the hive's every day this coming spring, I want to film it and show the film to UGA and maybe donate a couple of these queens to them to study, I would also like to post a video online so everyone can see this....


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

I realize a lot of people up North have no or very little problem with the SHB, but they are the biggest problem I have here in FL.

I too have seen the differences in the ways some hives treat the SHB some ignore them and some corral them into one spot and some hives have none at all.

It's the none at all group that puzzles me the most. Do they have none because they drove them out. Do the beetles not like them because the others smell different or what is it that makes one hive more attractive than another.

The SHB is my biggest problem because every weak hive is likely to get overrun by SHB from June thru Oct. Now that the rains have tapered off it gets better, but as long as we are in the summer rain pattern the SHB are a huge threat. One cannot split a hive or leave them at all weak or the SHB will take it over. Sometimes even a break in brooding in order to requeen will weaken a hive enough to allow the SHB a foothold.

I would welcome any discussion or theories as to how and why some bees are better able to cope than others. One theory I've heard is that the AHB is just plain meaner and drives the SHB off. I have captured some swarms that could have been Africanized and saw some evidence of this, but I requeen these swarms ASAP so I don't really know if this is the case or not. 

I don't really want to be keeping African bees in order to study this. Are they studying this at the Phoenix Bee lab?


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

BjornBee said:


> Ps. And Dan...this is not the time to call anyone out  I was waiting for you to start that ball.


My bad! Just trying to learn!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I think beekeepers get confused with the term resistance, really meaning tolerance. What does a mite resistant bee really mean? How does that bee become resistant to the mite? 
They cant form resistance to that pest, it will always be with them, and will always have the ability to take them down. 
But they can become tolerant. Adapting to behaviours to suppress the mite.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

Ian said:


> I think beekeepers get confused with the term resistance, really meaning tolerance. What does a mite resistant bee really mean? How does that bee become resistant to the mite?
> They cant form resistance to that pest, it will always be with them, and will always have the ability to take them down.
> But they can become tolerant. Adapting to behaviours to suppress the mite.


lets put resist or tolerate in a sentance .
1) i have bees that resist the presense of mites.
2) i have bees that tolerate the presense of mites.
i would prefer bees who are described by the first description.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I dont think there is a bee that will resist mites. Not even the Russian bees that have interacted with them for so long. They have adapted thier behaviour to tolerate and control their presence.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

And there's the problem.....

Everyone has a different idea of what it means when someone says "resistant bees".

Definition of resistant: "One who or that which resists".

Definition of resists: "To withstand; to oppose; to struggle against.

Most everyone has this win or lose mentality when speaking of resistance. I think bees have resistance in various levels of degrees or success. Some are good, some are bad.

To suggest that bees do not or can not, as the definitions state "to withstand, to oppose, to struggle against" mites, is wrong. Its not an all or nothing choice. As others have commented, you will never have a mite free world, or a bee with armor plating. That's not how nature works. That's not what we will ever achieve.

I commented many times about marketing hype. I see now that perhaps my own comments were wrong. Its not the hype of those correctly marketing their bees as "resistant" or breeding for "resistance". Its the buyers who have unreal expectations based on a few incorrectly self perceived defined terms. Its the consumer that has built these terms into way more than what they should be.

The Ontario group has bred bees that are as close to t-mite free as possible. I believe its something like 95%. They also have improved the hygienic factor of bees cleaning out the cells of frozen larvae from about 40% to around 95% in a 24 hour period. (Forgive me if my numbers are wrong, I am quoting on memory.) I don't think that 100% is achievable for t-mites. That's not the goal. And even if was, any complete resistance (mite free) normally reverts to problems as bees lose the ability to deal with the pest if they are not exposed over long periods of time. 

The one thing that the Ontario group does show me, is how far and how fast (10-15 years) that a higher level of resistance can be achieved with concentrated efforts and a plan of attack.

If your defining resistant bees as a colony with absolutely no mites....good luck. It won't happen. If your defining resistance as bees being able to control mites, or the damage they produce...then your on the right path.

Resistance should be measured on a scale of low, medium, high...or some other graph with appropriate scaling methods. To define resistance with "has mites....has no mites" is wrong.

There are resistant bees. Bees are a sum of the whole in counting everything that allows them to be resistant. Beekeepers dictate much of the environment that goes into a colony. Everything from equipment choices, to management timing, stress, nutrition, etc. They all have impacts on the bees environment and ability to control mites and maintain health. We need to improve not only the bees ability to deal with v-mites, but also understand that we can play a large role in their resistance (struggle) against mites.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Resistance should be measured on a scale of low, medium, high...or some other graph with appropriate scaling methods. To define resistance with "has mites....has no mites" is wrong.

I agree. 

There has to be a measure of tolerance to mark the level of resistance to the mites. That is what is currently done in the crop breeding sector. Low, medium and high levels of disease resistance, but a measure of the plants physical resistant characteristics. 
The bees level of resistance is a matter of its change of behaviour towards the mite population. 
Is the change of the bees behaviour is an act of resistance, or the ability to tolerate?
I agree, its a measure of resistance.

But lets not fool our selves. Raising that so called resistant bee doesnt get you away from the same problems of the possibility of that hive crashing due to the mites. There is a tolerance there, and the bees will have to maintain to that tolerance. Beekeepers are still going to have to maintain a treatment program for the mites even though they are running these resistant bees. It is a matter of how much the bees can tolerate, determines the treatment fequency, and choice.

Soo often here on this fourm I hear beekeepers say, "havent treated in three years", "dont believe in treatments" and refering to resistant stock.
They will soo soon have their eyes opened,


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Breeders around here have also been breeding an area select bee. They have been able to isolate a hygienic grooming behaviour typically found with bee stocks.
They have developed a technique to find hygienic stock quicker than with previous methods, using an infrared camera. They extract a sample of bees from a colony, large enough to form cluster, and expose them to mites. They have found they hygienic bees will have a cluster temperature rise as compared to non hygienic bees.

What good does grooming do? 
Incorporates well into an IPM system, that uses screened bottom boards. Also helps reduce T mite populations. So it adds some tolerance there also.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

In plant breeding, at least, "resistance" and "tolerance" differ slightly.

"Resistance" attempts to avoid colonization or feeding by a pest.

"Tolerance" attempts to reduce damage to the plant despite colonization or feeding by a pest.

Using plant-breeding terms, I think seeking "Varroa-tolerant" bees makes far more sense than attempting to breed "Varroa-resistant" bees.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*My definition*

By "tolerant" or "restistance", I just mean that the bees and the mites (or beetles or larvae or virus or germs or skunks or mean kids who throw rocks or whatever it is) can co-exist with the hive not dying and making an amount of honey that makes the project financially viable to people who are in it for the money.

I think mites are here to stay, and it's unreasonable to expect them to evolve to eliminate or have total immunity. The question is whether the bees can have some mites and still do their thing.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have lost a lot of chickens over the last few years to coyotes and foxes. I had quite an assortment of breeds. The only ones that survived until now are the Araucanas. I think coyotes are a definite external "parasite" of the chickens (predator of course, not parasite) and yet they have behavior that has protected them from these predators. Obviously animals DO have behavior that can protect them that is genetically transmitted to their offspring. The chickens lacking in those genetics are now gone.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ya, but Micheal, your talking about different lines of breeds of chickens, unlike what I am talking about with bees, 

You cant possibly mark hygenic bees as being related to certain lines of breeding.

I also raise chickens, and find the exact same observation you are seeing with your free range. 
I tell you, my coyotes sure have it easy some years!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Micheal,
How would you discribe small cell beekeeping as, in respect to the bees ability to adapt to the mites?


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

keick, by your logic, 

>"Resistance" attempts to avoid colonization or feeding by a pest.
>"Tolerance" attempts to reduce damage to the plant despite colonization or >feeding by a pest.

my vote goes to "resistance", especially if they are successful in their attempt.
even if both are successful in their attempt, i'd rather have the one that avoids it entirely than the one that reduces damage. in this scenario, you have damaged goods and non-damaged goods. having either of these is better than having neither.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

WVbeekeeper --

The problem lies in the pests overcoming the resistance. In wheat curl mites (differnt family than Varroa, but still mites), researchers at Kansas State University found that the mites developed "resistance to the resistance," if you will, that had been bred into wheat plants in as little as 60 days or eight generations. Assuming the same speed -- or even close to it -- of overcoming resistance in honey bees by Varroa, beekeepers will be faced with the same challenge: constantly "finding" and breeding new mechanisms of resistance to keep the bees ahead of the mites.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

a resistance to the resistances to the resistance to the.... WILL THE MADNESS EVER END?!!! sound like a never ending game of rock paper scissors. i don't know how a mite will get around good grooming behavior. maybe they could turn invisible, become weightless, and scent free so the bees can't detect them. and maybe they can figure out how to make a mite damaged pupa have the odor of a healthy pupa so it doesn't get thrown out. they might recruit david blane or chris angel to help them perform these illusions. i don't think the mites would want to associate with david copperfield since he is being investigated by the fbi and i know those mites don't want the fbi after them. all joking aside, remember we are talking about HONEYBEES and their pests not wheat plants and their pests. big difference here. with this type of correlation you might as well compare a mite to an asteroid and the bee to a planet. oh no wait, that would be an example of tolerance. a planet might tolerate the smaller asteroids impacting it, but could break apart from the larger ones. 
i will keep resistant bees and you can keep tolerant bees if you choose. if my hives crashes frokm mites, i'll bring the mites to you to see how well your tolerant bees hold up to a mite that gets past a resistance to them. VIVA LA RESISTANCE!!!!


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Ian said:


> You cant possibly mark hygenic bees as being related to certain lines of breeding.


 
Why not?

Keith "I need more letters" Benson


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

WVbeekeeper said:


> all joking aside, remember we are talking about HONEYBEES and their pests not wheat plants and their pests. big difference here.


The mechanisms are often different, but the principles are the same. What makes honeybees so differnet from other life forms for you?

Keith


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> i don't know how a mite will get around good grooming behavior. -WVbeekeeper


Look back to Michael Bush's example about chickens. We don't have to know _how_ it will happen to make it likely that it will happen.



> The mechanisms are often different, but the principles are the same. -Keith Benson


Well stated.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>ya, but Micheal, your talking about different lines of breeds of chickens, unlike what I am talking about with bees

The point is that the behavior appears to be genetic (since only one breed seems to survive) rather than just luck. If it's genetic, then you can breed for it and, in fact, if the threat is fatal, reality will breed for it if you don't intervene.

>You cant possibly mark hygenic bees as being related to certain lines of breeding.

But you can develop a line of bees that is hygienic. That was proven by O.W. Park in 1937.

>How would you discribe small cell beekeeping as, in respect to the bees ability to adapt to the mites?

The bees already adapted to the mites.  If you let them, they build cells the size they should to shorten their brood cycle to what it should be to cut back on the reproductive capabilities of the mites. They also appear to have more hygienic behavior as a result, but that's harder to measure.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks Micheal, 
Chow


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

................


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

Keith Benson said:


> The mechanisms are often different, but the principles are the same. What makes honeybees so differnet from other life forms for you?
> 
> Keith


mainly they don't grow roots into the ground and don't stay in one place. they rely on plants for nourishment but plant don't rely on them for their nourishment. i haven't been able to get them to sit or roll over, but they sure fetch nectar and pollen pretty good. they don't weigh up to five tons like an elephant, but each have a proboscis. they don't shed their skin through their adult life and have limbs unlike a snake, but they both have scales and defend themselves with venom.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

WVbeekeeper said:


> mainly they don't grow roots into the ground and don't stay in one place. they rely on plants for nourishment but plant don't rely on them for their nourishment. i haven't been able to get them to sit or roll over, but they sure fetch nectar and pollen pretty good. they don't weigh up to five tons like an elephant, but each have a proboscis. they don't shed their skin through their adult life and have limbs unlike a snake, but they both have scales and defend themselves with venom.


And how do any of these things mean that the principles of adaptation would not necessarily apply to them?

Keith


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Tolerance, Resistance, Vigor, Strength, Adaptation, etc.*

Doesn't matter to me what it is called or by what techniques it is brought into effect, other than chemicals or chemical compounds that most of us would not like mixed with our food.

What matters to me is that my bees stay alive, even better they often thrive, best is that when or if I harvest any honey I won't be harvesting any toxic stuff that I was directly responsible for.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

*My Observations, for what its worth*

I have found that a combination of IPM and SMR seems to work very well. Is it possible that this combines both tolerance and resistance? Seems to me you need both. Tolerance to mitigate the effect on the bees of the reality/inevitablilty of the infestation. Resistance is needed to keep the population of the pests down to a tolerable level.

The first year I kept bees, my package supplier told me that between the mites and the SHB, he was on the verge of going out of business. Despite my efforts, all the packages I purchased from him succumbed to SHB infestation. Since then I have been using a combination IPM (SBB, small/natural cells, plastic fully drawn comb, etc.) with SMR bees. I have not lost a single hive to SHB or mites and I don't use any form of chemical treatment. As for mites, I have seen a few, but I have never observed a single bee with DWV, does not mean there were none, only that it is down to a level that I could not observe it. As for the SHB, some of my bees keep the adult SHB isolated in one area in the hive. Others seem to keep their hives nearly free of them. None of them allow the SHB to have free roam over the comb like the bees I lost my first year.

I have done a lot of feral cutouts this year, I have noticed similar SHB response in the feral colonies as well. That is some of them had a a lot of adult SHB, but kept them isolated, others I saw only a very few adult SHB (could count them on one hand).

I have watched the bees with the low SHB count, and I see them actually carry the adult beetles out of the hive. Either way it seems that a behavior has developed that requires a percentage of the workers be devoted to SHB control. Since part of our goal is to have enough workers so as to allow an excess of honey stores, one key necessity seems to be that the hive is headed by a highly fecund queen.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

Keith Benson said:


> And how do any of these things mean that the principles of adaptation would not necessarily apply to them?
> 
> Keith


you should have asked that to begin with. i'm sure if the mite can adapt the bee can too.

i'd still like to know what this means,
>...that had been bred into wheat plants in as little as 60 days or eight generations.

i must not be reading it right cause it sounds like you have a new generation of wheat plant every 7.5 days. sorry if i'm being dense.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I likely didn't state that as clearly as I should.

Plant breeders deliberatly have attempted to breed lines of wheat that are resistant to the wheat curl mites (i.e., the mites are unable to survive or reproduce on these wheat plants).

Starting with those lines of resistant wheat, researchers infested the mite-resistant wheat plants with wheat curl mites. At first, almost all of the mites on the resistant plants died. However, the adaptations that allowed the surviving mites to feed on the resistant plants spread through the population rapidly, and 60 days after infestation (eight generations of mites, less than one generation of plants), the resistant plants were as heavily colonized by wheat curl mites as the control ("non-resistant") plants.

The 7.5-day average generation time is for the mites, not the wheat plants.

Also to clarify: this was a greenhouse experiment under controlled circumstances. This experiment does not mean that host resistance _will_ be overcome within such a short period of time, only that such adaptation _may_ arise and spread rapidly.


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