# Apparent Devastating Winter Bee Loss - What happened??



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

maybe built up pesticides in the comb or mites.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

What do you see in the hives? Check for mite frass. Without other details from what you said I would expect mite. Dwindle / crash in fall is commonly (almost always) due to mites. What do the other hives look like? What were you treating with before you stopped? What makes you think your bees can coexist with mites?


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## mattpiper5876 (Apr 22, 2014)

Amibusiness said:


> What do you see in the hives? Check for mite frass. Without other details from what you said I would expect mite. Dwindle / crash in fall is commonly (almost always) due to mites. What do the other hives look like? What were you treating with before you stopped? What makes you think your bees can coexist with mites?


My 3 surviving hives look healthy and ready for Spring. I havent investigated for mite frass. what is the best way to do that and what does it look like? I was treating with miticide strips prior. as far as coexistence between mites and bees.... the theory that Michael Bush puts out there is that... by shifting to natural comb, the natural cell size is smaller than manufactured foundation and thus bees hatch faster and the theory is that breaks the mite cycle since they need the extra time that manufactured foundation provides.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

mattpiper5876 said:


> I have been beekeeping for about 9 years. Around 3 years ago, i decided to use some of Michael Bush techniques and converted to all mediums and natural comb for the most part. I also quit treating my bees for mites. My hives (14) have been in the full Alabama sun for the past 4 years. And to my surprise had done quite well during this 3 year time span, until Fall/Winter of this past year 2020. My last "official" check on my bees was around Thanksgiving and all seem relatively healthy and ready for the winter with plenty of pollen and honey on the hives. My check up inspection in mid-January 2021 revealed a very alarming and disheartening realization. 10 of my 14 hives were dead... gone... with only a handful of dead bees on the bottom boards. Earlier ride byes in December on warm days it seemed my hives were doing good. The presence of bees flying in and out made me think things were ok... not sure now if in December the bees flying might have been robber bees since i do not know when the "absconding" or die out occurred. I have always had a few hives not make it thru the winter (2 or 3 at the most) over the last 3 years. Never anything to this amount!
> 
> Just curious of any others experiencing this "AMOUNT" of loss (71%) and any thoughts on what has happened to my bees?? I did plant a garden this year on my property and just wander if it or other "new" gardens in the area (ALL DUE TO COVID influence) could have played a roll with pesticides and such?? we used BT dipel on my corn because it is supposed to be "Bee" " Friendly.
> 
> Thoughts??? ALso, should i burn my frames and bee equipment because of this???


 Without more info I'd put my money on mites, this usually happens in the second or third late winter when there is no treatment, I am a minimalist and use only OAV, once around Thanksgiving when they have little or no brood. On rare occasions I will treat a colony at other times, but only if they have no brood. I respect and follow most of Michael's way of keeping bees, I have no doubt it works for him, but I think he would tell you that beekeeping differs by locality. As for burning the equipment, I wouldn't.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Right I forgot to mention, only reason to burn is foul brood (and for most just american). If you suspect that get your inspector to check it out. 
Mite frass is like little honey crystals on the top of brood cells. (I have seen people who should know better calling crystallized honey frass....) Look from the bottom bar into the brood cells for frass. If there there were a lot of mites and the bees weren't cleaning up. If not there still could be mites.
I guess you found out that smaller cells does not kill varroa. Also I have yet to see how many colonies MB goes into winter with and how many come out. I am also treatment free and aim for 30% winter loss. When we just had a few colonies we did better. Most years it's under 40%. Every 4 years or so losses can be high. We always looses some colonies to mites and in the bad years loose more to mites. (I try to keep mite losses to December and January so the mites die with the bees instead of hitching a ride elsewhere.....)
I would not expect any bee in any location to be able to handle tf. If you are isolated enough and have good resistant genes and a strong feral population it can work.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Around 3 years ago…… I also quit treating my bees for mites.*
You’ve done pretty well to have made it for three years!


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

another though, you may have a "neighbor" that started beekeeping this year and had a mite bomb that took out your hives. Even if you have small cells and have been successful in previous years, a change like this could cause what you are seeing.


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## Surviving Our Bees (Feb 14, 2021)

To OP:

You're bees are dead because you did not treat for mites.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

mattpiper5876 said:


> I have been beekeeping for about 9 years. Around 3 years ago, i decided to use some of Michael Bush techniques and converted to all mediums and natural comb for the most part. I also quit treating my bees for mites. My hives (14) have been in the full Alabama sun for the past 4 years. And to my surprise had done quite well during this 3 year time span, until Fall/Winter of this past year 2020. My last "official" check on my bees was around Thanksgiving and all seem relatively healthy and ready for the winter with plenty of pollen and honey on the hives. My check up inspection in mid-January 2021 revealed a very alarming and disheartening realization. 10 of my 14 hives were dead... gone... with only a handful of dead bees on the bottom boards. Earlier ride byes in December on warm days it seemed my hives were doing good. The presence of bees flying in and out made me think things were ok... not sure now if in December the bees flying might have been robber bees since i do not know when the "absconding" or die out occurred. I have always had a few hives not make it thru the winter (2 or 3 at the most) over the last 3 years. Never anything to this amount!
> 
> Just curious of any others experiencing this "AMOUNT" of loss (71%) and any thoughts on what has happened to my bees?? I did plant a garden this year on my property and just wander if it or other "new" gardens in the area (ALL DUE TO COVID influence) could have played a roll with pesticides and such?? we used BT dipel on my corn because it is supposed to be "Bee" " Friendly.
> 
> Thoughts??? ALso, should i burn my frames and bee equipment because of this???


Mites are not controlled by small or natural comb. Some strains of bees manage to survive them by swarming constantly and abscounding every time mite levels build up. But mostly bees just die. Not treating bees seems like cruelty to me. But that is just me.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Elmer, I don't think the bees and mites have found equilibrium in the hives in the few years off treatments.
If you are successful ten years and then all of a sudden have a bad year you could blame neighbors. At this point I think each year you are getting more mites through the winter and eventually they get the upper hand. Usually that is the second winter....


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Do an alcohol wash on 1/2 cup of bees in one of your remaining hives. I think you will have your answer as to what killed off your other hives.


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## amk (Dec 16, 2017)

I had unusually high losses and I treat I’m at 40% and it isn’t spring yet. For me it was a dry summer my splits never built up and so they weren’t strong enough. (I suspect) if mites was your problem and not lack of resources nobody ever said treatment free was easy guess you take those 4 survivors and split them out next year. I believe that’s how it’s supposed to work. There’s a reason commercial guys all treat for mites they can’t afford losses to things that they can control.


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## Cobbler (Jan 6, 2021)

I’ve just been reading Seeley’s “The Lives of Bees.” He recommends Darwinian beekeeping, but warns that this will likely come with an 80%+ loss of colonies as mites take out the majority of colonies and only a small fraction are left capable of handling mite infestations. These are the genetically mite-resistant colonies you can split to build your apiary back up.

The main point I am trying to make is that non-treatment for mites only works on a small fraction of colonies. If you don’t want to treat, you should plan to loose a lot of colonies until natural selection has worked its magic.


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## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

Some pictures would help identify the cause but a mite wash on the surviving colonies will probably tell the tale'


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

To Darwinian beekeeping I wonder how much it works if your local system is not closed, ie if new mites and viruses are being brought in then stressors are being added artificially and I'm not sure nature will be able to establish a balance. Also there will be unusually heavy mite loads in the fall as the "80%" succumb. Can the 20% handle the mite spike or do they succumb as well? I'm not sure seeleys small sample really gives us scientifically significant stats.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Isolation is key to a TF attempt.Seeley's work in the Arnot forrest was in a geographically isolated area
Here in the NE we are flooded with pkgs every spring,loaded with SHB and varroa,many going to beekeepers with no clue about mite control.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

I don't think seeley is isolated and he only has a very small population of colonies in the forest. Not a statistically significant sample size. What is interesting is the (genetic) data they have on unmanaged bees from before and after varroa. But to draw conclusions about bees from so small a sample in a specific locale is unscientific.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*I had unusually high losses and I treat I’m at 40% and it isn’t spring yet.*
How and when did you treat?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

another point to keep in mind is the Queen lifespan.
If you do not re queen each year the queens at some point are replaced via supercedure.
the offspring would be a output of the drones in your area crossed with your queen. The original bees could have been better at resistance but as the daughters and granddaughters came the mite susceptibility may have increased. as well could be some new hives in the area that were not there 3 years ago.

any pattern of the lost hives VRS the alive hives around Queen age or lifespan? did you re queen last year?

GG


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## Cobbler (Jan 6, 2021)

Seeley’s work with Darwinian beekeeping was based on more than just the Arnot Forest. The main study was in Sweden, but that was an isolated area.

He also showed that spreading hives out a bit made a big difference.

It is also true that queens will be superseded and colonies will continue to die as drones add less-resistant genetics to the system, but natural selection will continue to produce more mite-resistance than non-Darwinian methods. Again this comes at a high - mostly early - cost.

My conclusion after reading was that Darwinian beekeeping is probably not a great option for most beekeepers. I will continue to treat for mites. I also hope that I will have increased survival rates as I split my surviving hives - all of which are feral captures.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

psm1212 said:


> Do an alcohol wash on 1/2 cup of bees in one of your remaining hives. I think you will have your answer as to what killed off your other hives.


Would an alcohol wash on the dead bees work?


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

mattpiper5876 said:


> I have been beekeeping for about 9 years. Around 3 years ago, i decided to use some of Michael Bush techniques and converted to all mediums and natural comb for the most part. I also quit treating my bees for mites. My hives (14) have been in the full Alabama sun for the past 4 years. And to my surprise had done quite well during this 3 year time span, until Fall/Winter of this past year 2020. My last "official" check on my bees was around Thanksgiving and all seem relatively healthy and ready for the winter with plenty of pollen and honey on the hives. My check up inspection in mid-January 2021 revealed a very alarming and disheartening realization. 10 of my 14 hives were dead... gone... with only a handful of dead bees on the bottom boards. Earlier ride byes in December on warm days it seemed my hives were doing good. The presence of bees flying in and out made me think things were ok... not sure now if in December the bees flying might have been robber bees since i do not know when the "absconding" or die out occurred. I have always had a few hives not make it thru the winter (2 or 3 at the most) over the last 3 years. Never anything to this amount!
> 
> Just curious of any others experiencing this "AMOUNT" of loss (71%) and any thoughts on what has happened to my bees?? I did plant a garden this year on my property and just wander if it or other "new" gardens in the area (ALL DUE TO COVID influence) could have played a roll with pesticides and such?? we used BT dipel on my corn because it is supposed to be "Bee" " Friendly.
> 
> Thoughts??? ALso, should i burn my frames and bee equipment because of this???


Question. 3 years ago, when you decided to go treatment free, did you purchase VHS queens? Then go treatment free?


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

I have not yet read seeleys Darwinian things. Does he get to a point where it stabilizes or is he suggesting that 80% loss is "for ever"? Ie once the local population is stabilized (colonies spread out and no more brought in and a few years of 80% loss, and presumably splitting to regain colonies) do losses drop down to 20-30%? How many years?
It seems if one were to expect 80% loss every year that would take the fun out of beekeeping right quick. But if it stabilizes to a more acceptable number it could be a long term (tenuous!) investment into future beekeeping.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Struttinbuck said:


> Question. 3 years ago, when you decided to go treatment free, did you purchase VHS queens? Then go treatment free?


Yes; Interesting in that highly VSH bees in a high mite load background can uncap so many cells that population growth is affected. Experienced that in one of my first nucs.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Amibusines, msl has posted the figures of necessary yearly losses to sustain stable numbers. Stable numbers in the face of no harvest taken does not automatically equate to valuable genetics.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Thanks Frank. What I have seen from msl is that a stable population loses an assumed 66% annually (based on the assumption that colonies swarm an average of 2x/ year). That's math. Did he post numbers seeley found, ie someone's practical experience over years? I know Kirk Webster aims for 30% loss tf and sometimes has bad years. But I don't know what his losses are in bad years. Anybody know that?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Amibusiness said:


> Thanks Frank. What I have seen from msl is that a stable population loses an assumed 66% annually (based on the assumption that colonies swarm an average of 2x/ year). That's math. Did he post numbers seeley found, ie someone's practical experience over years? I know Kirk Webster aims for 30% loss tf and sometimes has bad years. But I don't know what his losses are in bad years. Anybody know that?


Probably 5 years ago his loss was described as having been decimated. Did not hear what the most likely cause was. I have the feeling that to be treatment free you cant afford to do many of the common avoidable stupid moves. Not many rank beginners get lucky!


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Struttinbuck said:


> Would an alcohol wash on the dead bees work?


I would not trust a count from an alcohol wash of dead bees.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

psm1212 said:


> I would not trust a count from an alcohol wash of dead bees.


psm would no wash and no data point be a preferred position?

GG


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Gray Goose said:


> psm would no wash and no data point be a preferred position?


Not sure I am following you GG. I made an earlier recommendation to do a wash on the remaining colonies, not the dead ones. I am willing to guess that what you will find in terms of mite counts in those remaining colonies is likely representative of what you had in the dead colonies just prior to collapse. 

If not, I want to go graft from those colonies this spring. He does not live too far from me.


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

Sorry for your losses. My guess is also mites and the post-mortem will tell you for sure. Treatment free can be done but I consider it an advanced skill and only for those with the stomach for heavy losses as it gains traction. I'm in the middle of a forest two miles from a small town and know I have too much mite pressure to go that direction. Plus I can't abide losing colonies when I can use an organic solution to treat them. GG mentions queen loss which is another angle. In tandem with that is having a healthy drone population. I personally don't requeen unless it's obvious. I've seen a queen turn around once she has the staff and nutrition. Until my evaluation skills are better I'd rather they supersede as needed.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

psm1212 said:


> Not sure I am following you GG. I made an earlier recommendation to do a wash on the remaining colonies, not the dead ones. I am willing to guess that what you will find in terms of mite counts in those remaining colonies is likely representative of what you had in the dead colonies just prior to collapse.
> 
> If not, I want to go graft from those colonies this spring. He does not live too far from me.


washing dead bees can show mites, is it accurate, close,, the mites that left the dying bee to find a new one and could not will be in the comb dead, if you bang a comb on the table some will fall out. So perhaps one can not trust the count but if you find mites at 3 percent or greater one could add that data point to the "why did thy die" chart.
IF you wash and bang a few combs and get Zero mites that also is a data point.

Agree if the remaining hives are relatively mite free that could indicate they are a propagation target, or they did not rob as much or ....

my point is the wash of the dead bees can be a data point IMO better than no data.

GG


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

He last saw his bees alive at the Thanksgiving holiday, he discovered them dead in mid-January and he posted about it in mid-February. I don't think washing those dead bees in alcohol at this point is going to give him any relevant data as to why they died.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

As long as the beekeeping world rotates around the almond tree, our bees genetics are going to be annually flooded with drones produced by fast building colonies tailor made for pollination. Unless you are fortunate and live in a secluded area with a resident gene pool, you need to adjust your beekeeping to that reality. These bees do not winter on a thimble full of stores. For most of us breeding the mite tolerating bee is just not in the cards. If you think it is possible for you, go for it. Everyone needs a purpose in life. 

That doesn't mean do nothing! Get your hives up to winter weight for your area. Pay special attention to your bees nutritional needs going into winter. Supply pollen supplement if your local conditions warrant, otherwise your colony may not be able to build winter bees able to make it thru that long winter. For me, those bees produced in September need to last well into April!. But time and again I have watched populous appearing hives age out and dwindle in March. The last two winters, I lost half my colonies. None of them starved to death. None of them had significant mite loads. What they had was a beekeeper asleep at the wheel who failed to do anything about terribly dry fall conditions with totally inadequate natural pollen supplies! So last fall this slow to learn beekeeper fed pollen patties which the bees found palatable and ate but probably were not needed because fall pollen was readily available because of a wetter than normal summer. 

But this year my bees are wintering very well so the patties were if nothing else insurance. I take to long to say, we have to be awake and responsive to the years conditions! Make a list of your make and break conditions and remain aware of and manage them.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

psm1212 said:


> He last saw his bees alive at the Thanksgiving holiday, he discovered them dead in mid-January and he posted about it in mid-February. I don't think washing those dead bees in alcohol at this point is going to give him any relevant data as to why they died.


The mites will be on the bee carcasses in that dead cluster. Washing them to count mites is a useful practice.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

crofter said:


> Yes; Interesting in that highly VSH bees in a high mite load background can uncap so many cells that population growth is affected. Experienced that in one of my first nucs.


There could be another scenario where 3 years ago, he got hygenic bees. 3 years later the queens go to bee heaven. The new queens may have had a very good hygenic Queen for a mom but if there were alot of other drones from other strains. Then this seasons queens werent having hygenic babys. ???


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> psm would no wash and no data point be a preferred position?
> 
> GG


alcohol is cheap. I would guess if you see a huge amount of mites then trusting a wash of dead bees wouldnt be an issue. its if you got zero mites is when you couldnt trust the dead bee wash.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Struttinbuck said:


> alcohol is cheap. I would guess if you see a huge amount of mites then trusting a wash of dead bees wouldnt be an issue. its if you got zero mites is when you couldnt trust the dead bee wash.


as well a 1TBLs of Dawn detergent to 2 quarts of water mix can be a wash solution. So yes the cost is not the issue.
IMO the count on the dead bees may not be accurate But it will still be something.
A Zero can mean to look elsewhere, look at stores look at more things. a 19 may really be a 23 or a 16 but still a data point that Mites were an issue.
I am not really looking for an accurate count I am looking for clues. If I get > 50% dead over winter I want all the clues possible to avoid it next year, Slide rule accuracy may be good enough.
Tap the comb on the table with the cell opening down, mites will drop out if they exist. Zero on the tap and Zero on the wash And zero Frass is "data" here an extra treatment may not be warranted.



GG


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> as well a 1TBLs of Dawn detergent to 2 quarts of water mix can be a wash solution. So yes the cost is not the issue.
> IMO the count on the dead bees may not be accurate But it will still be something.
> A Zero can mean to look elsewhere, look at stores look at more things. a 19 may really be a 23 or a 16 but still a data point that Mites were an issue.
> I am not really looking for an accurate count I am looking for clues. If I get > 50% dead over winter I want all the clues possible to avoid it next year, Slide rule accuracy may be good enough.
> ...


I'm with ya. I hate to blindly blame things. Every time I blindly blame something at work, I tee everybody off because the chewing gum foil on the 100 amp fuse didnt work. LOL


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Vance G said:


> The mites will be on the bee carcasses in that dead cluster. Washing them to count mites is a useful practice.


I disagree. The time for accurate mite counts is long before the colony becomes so ill that it is failing. There is a reason there were only a few dead bees on the bottom board. As is the case with most instances of PMS, the diseased bees begin to leave the hive to die elsewhere. Mites hitch rides on these bees as a way of fleeing their dying host to search for another. The OP lives in Alabama. Bees fly all year. And because they do not have a nectar source, they rob all "winter." The mites remaining in the hive now have an ample supply of foreign bees to cling to and ride out.

And, how many dead mites were on the bottom board before the bees began dying on top of them? They have been dead for 2 months, why would the mites still be attached to their hosts? Why would we think that a mite would stay attached to its dead host instead of uncoupling and moving away in search of another host? Isn't that what most successful parasites do? The mites that were simply riding on the bee without their mouth parts sunk in certainly will no longer be attached to the dead bee. 

So if you wash a handful of dead bees on a bottom board that have been there for 2 months, what are you actually measuring? No mites? They left with the departing bees. 20 mites? You haven't cleaned the bottom board in 3 years. Or maybe mites on the comb that did not find a departing host, ultimately died and fell into the handful of dead bees. Do those count in the mite-to-bee ratio?

But you can spin whatever "data" you find into whatever scenario you want to believe. Would you really have confidence in the results?

The OP lost 10 of 14 hives after not treating for 3 years. I don't think we need to go full-tilt CSI to know what happened.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

psm1212 said:


> I disagree. The time for accurate mite counts is long before the colony becomes so ill that it is failing. There is a reason there were only a few dead bees on the bottom board. As is the case with most instances of PMS, the diseased bees begin to leave the hive to die elsewhere. Mites hitch rides on these bees as a way of fleeing their dying host to search for another. The OP lives in Alabama. Bees fly all year. And because they do not have a nectar source, they rob all "winter." The mites remaining in the hive now have an ample supply of foreign bees to cling to and ride out.
> 
> And, how many dead mites were on the bottom board before the bees began dying on top of them? They have been dead for 2 months, why would the mites still be attached to their hosts? Why would we think that a mite would stay attached to its dead host instead of uncoupling and moving away in search of another host? Isn't that what most successful parasites do? The mites that were simply riding on the bee without their mouth parts sunk in certainly will no longer be attached to the dead bee.
> 
> ...


PSM , Vance clearly stated in the dead cluster, and you are talking if/when the bees leave and assume robbing to boot.

if there is a cluster the bees can be tested, in winter in the north the mites do not run out into the snow looking for a host.
In the south and with very few bees present , in a dead out, can also point to Mites. and that is a data point, pointing to bees leaving. Can also be a predation, poison, or a couple other things. so in the scenario you each describe you can both be correct  or not... hence collect all the data you can, if the bees are mostly gone I would tend to agree a wash should not be done.
A look at combs 
a look at stores all would help and an earlier wash would help, however we do not have one here.

just need to go from guess to educated guess, or even better some provable hypothesis.

GG


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

psm1212 said:


> I disagree. The time for accurate mite counts is long before the colony becomes so ill that it is failing. There is a reason there were only a few dead bees on the bottom board. As is the case with most instances of PMS, the diseased bees begin to leave the hive to die elsewhere. Mites hitch rides on these bees as a way of fleeing their dying host to search for another. The OP lives in Alabama. Bees fly all year. And because they do not have a nectar source, they rob all "winter." The mites remaining in the hive now have an ample supply of foreign bees to cling to and ride out.
> 
> And, how many dead mites were on the bottom board before the bees began dying on top of them? They have been dead for 2 months, why would the mites still be attached to their hosts? Why would we think that a mite would stay attached to its dead host instead of uncoupling and moving away in search of another host? Isn't that what most successful parasites do? The mites that were simply riding on the bee without their mouth parts sunk in certainly will no longer be attached to the dead bee.
> 
> ...


I would do an alcohol wash because Alabama gets really cold contrary to what people think. If there are mites, then so be it.
But then my other question would be about the time they started treatment free. Did they get VSH queens ? 3 years is about the time a queen kicks the bucket. So this past summer the hives superceded their queens and the new ones had inferior genetics.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Gray Goose said:


> PSM , Vance clearly stated in the dead cluster, and you are talking if/when the bees leave and assume robbing to boot.


I did not assume robbing. OP referenced robbing.

I am trying to understand what you mean by "Vance clearly stated in the dead cluster." Do mites riding on bees at the time the bees die stay inside the "dead cluster"? Do mites feeding on bees at the time the bees die remain attached to the dead bee until they also die? If so, do they eventually fall off of the bee they were feeding on and into the dead cluster? On top of the dead cluster or do they crawl to the bottom of the dead cluster? If not, do they leave the perimeter of the dead cluster? Do mites leave dead bees in search of other hosts? 

Honestly, I don't know the answer to any of these questions. And because I don't, I could not begin to guess at what a mite wash of 2 month-old dead bees could tell you. It is not a data point. It is noise.


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## Cobbler (Jan 6, 2021)

Amibusiness said:


> I have not yet read seeleys Darwinian things. Does he get to a point where it stabilizes or is he suggesting that 80% loss is "for ever"? Ie once the local population is stabilized (colonies spread out and no more brought in and a few years of 80% loss, and presumably splitting to regain colonies) do losses drop down to 20-30%? How many years?
> It seems if one were to expect 80% loss every year that would take the fun out of beekeeping right quick. But if it stabilizes to a more acceptable number it could be a long term (tenuous!) investment into future beekeeping.


The idea was that the initial heavy loss would leave only the more mite-resistant bees. After that, the losses would be smaller as these bees multiplied. Obviously the size of the local gene pool would influence the longevity of genetic mite resistance.

Seeley also seems to suggest that there may have been heavy loss of WILD colonies in his area, but that wild numbers have recovered and are stable without treatment.


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## Surviving Our Bees (Feb 14, 2021)

_The OP lost 10 of 14 hives after not treating for 3 years. I don't think we need to go full-tilt CSI to know what happened._

Agreed. TF beekeeping works great until it doesn't.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

psm1212 said:


> I did not assume robbing. OP referenced robbing.
> 
> I am trying to understand what you mean by "Vance clearly stated in the dead cluster." Do mites riding on bees at the time the bees die stay inside the "dead cluster"? Do mites feeding on bees at the time the bees die remain attached to the dead bee until they also die? If so, do they eventually fall off of the bee they were feeding on and into the dead cluster? On top of the dead cluster or do they crawl to the bottom of the dead cluster? If not, do they leave the perimeter of the dead cluster? Do mites leave dead bees in search of other hosts?
> 
> Honestly, I don't know the answer to any of these questions. And because I don't, I could not begin to guess at what a mite wash of 2 month-old dead bees could tell you. It is not a data point. It is noise.


PSM
Mites need to stay warm just like the bee
if mass bee die off happens in cluster, they cool, have no "warmer" place to seek and die a few days after the last bees do.
As the cluster would cool from the outside and in general die from the outside in, the mites would go toward the remaining heat. In a cold dead out ,the mites are still in the hive. yes a few on the bottom board, a few in cells and some still on the bees. In general in 4-9 days after the bees are all dead the mites are all dead.

if the mass bee die off occurs during flying temp, the bees generally leave as they sense they are dyeing/sick.
this often looks like an Abscond. Sometimes the last bees leave the dyeing hive to find a new one to join, this can be a late drift causing the newly infected hive to have a bad spring, as the winter bees are ok but the first brood has mites right out of the gate. ergo most / many of the spring bees, are mite infested and the hive seems to just languish .
Also in flying temp and dearth there can/will be robbing.

outside temp at the time of the mass die off,, looks very different, also exacerbating the difficulty of the Autopsy.

all of this is from observation, reading, opinion, and empirical data.
And mostly Michigan data points.

IMO a dead cluster can be washed, and I look at the BB and tap a few combs and look for frass, near/in the cluster area. Is it "accurate" depends, is it a valid tool IMO yes. 

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Surviving Our Bees said:


> _The OP lost 10 of 14 hives after not treating for 3 years. I don't think we need to go full-tilt CSI to know what happened._
> 
> Agreed. TF beekeeping works great until it doesn't.


Agree and the "data" of no treatments would "point" to a "suspected" answer.
I would recommend to not just guess the most obvious answer, but to use whatever data collection mechanisms we have available to confirm our Bias. The mite dart is easy to throw, but there could be other issues.
One hinted at here is the queen age and the resultant supercedure genetics, Maybe the fix would have been a requeen with VHS queen in yr 2. I tend to agree that "Mites" were involved, but I would rather not guess and would tend toward a better diagnosis of the dead outs.

however each to their own stradidgy

funny,, some want Academic papers to buy an idea, and some are fine with a popular answer/guess, I am not fond of either of those 2 choice, ergo my response.

BTW IMO the not dead hives really need a wash first thing in the spring, just to head off total loss.

warming here today, thank god, be in the 30s next week.
have a great week.

GG


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

We have plenty of "unkept" bees here, so I assume all my hives have levels of mites requiring treatment every year.

I've been using formic aicd for some time, and the one time I tried oxalic acid on paper towels with glycerine that worked well in California I lost half my hives, same as if I did not treat at all. Obviously in-effective treatment, won't try that again (the bees propylized the towels rather than removing them, so no oxalic acid spread through the hives).

Mites kill hives by spreading wing paralysis viruses (which are vectored only by the mites). This will give you excessive numbers of non-flying bees that fall off the landing board on their orientation flight and crawl around in the grass attempting to fly. Those that do not fly but stay inside cannot vibrate their wing muscles to generate heat either, so when the first serious cold snap comes along, many of the bees in the cluster will die. The remaining bees will haul them off, but the cluster is usually then too small to survive, other hives will "disocover" the stores, and rob them out on warm days. Once the hive is being robbed, the remaining bees drift to hives with queens -- and the queen in the mite affected hive probably dies in that cold snap.

Hardly a mystery these days, classic mite induced colony collapse. 

The solution is to treat for mites with something effective. I've been very successful with formic acid pads (any brand) -- they are NASTY and you can kill the queen if you don't use them correctly, but they ARE residue free, fully organic, and very, very effective when used properly. I've had two years with minimal losses, and one with NO losses, so I will keep using them. Keeping bees, unless you are very well isolated from other beekeepers or un-hived bees, requires treating for mites. 

We had near zero temps and almost a foot of snow this week out of the blue, and the snow in front of my hives on a day in the mid 20's is scattered with dead bees. The hives with ice and snow on the landing board and no upper entrance (need to fix that) had dead bees piled inside the entrance reducer, so I'm pretty sure they are all still going strong.


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## HiveBeetle (Mar 26, 2017)

mattpiper5876 said:


> I have been beekeeping for about 9 years. Around 3 years ago, i decided to use some of Michael Bush techniques and converted to all mediums and natural comb for the most part. I also quit treating my bees for mites. My hives (14) have been in the full Alabama sun for the past 4 years. And to my surprise had done quite well during this 3 year time span, until Fall/Winter of this past year 2020. My last "official" check on my bees was around Thanksgiving and all seem relatively healthy and ready for the winter with plenty of pollen and honey on the hives. My check up inspection in mid-January 2021 revealed a very alarming and disheartening realization. 10 of my 14 hives were dead... gone... with only a handful of dead bees on the bottom boards. Earlier ride byes in December on warm days it seemed my hives were doing good. The presence of bees flying in and out made me think things were ok... not sure now if in December the bees flying might have been robber bees since i do not know when the "absconding" or die out occurred. I have always had a few hives not make it thru the winter (2 or 3 at the most) over the last 3 years. Never anything to this amount!
> 
> Just curious of any others experiencing this "AMOUNT" of loss (71%) and any thoughts on what has happened to my bees?? I did plant a garden this year on my property and just wander if it or other "new" gardens in the area (ALL DUE TO COVID influence) could have played a roll with pesticides and such?? we used BT dipel on my corn because it is supposed to be "Bee" " Friendly.
> 
> Thoughts??? ALso, should i burn my frames and bee equipment because of this???


I


mattpiper5876 said:


> I have been beekeeping for about 9 years. Around 3 years ago, i decided to use some of Michael Bush techniques and converted to all mediums and natural comb for the most part. I also quit treating my bees for mites. My hives (14) have been in the full Alabama sun for the past 4 years. And to my surprise had done quite well during this 3 year time span, until Fall/Winter of this past year 2020. My last "official" check on my bees was around Thanksgiving and all seem relatively healthy and ready for the winter with plenty of pollen and honey on the hives. My check up inspection in mid-January 2021 revealed a very alarming and disheartening realization. 10 of my 14 hives were dead... gone... with only a handful of dead bees on the bottom boards. Earlier ride byes in December on warm days it seemed my hives were doing good. The presence of bees flying in and out made me think things were ok... not sure now if in December the bees flying might have been robber bees since i do not know when the "absconding" or die out occurred. I have always had a few hives not make it thru the winter (2 or 3 at the most) over the last 3 years. Never anything to this amount!
> 
> Just curious of any others experiencing this "AMOUNT" of loss (71%) and any thoughts on what has happened to my bees?? I did plant a garden this year on my property and just wander if it or other "new" gardens in the area (ALL DUE TO COVID influence) could have played a roll with pesticides and such?? we used BT dipel on my corn because it is supposed to be "Bee" " Friendly.
> 
> Thoughts??? ALso, should i burn my frames and bee equipment because of this???


i think you answered your own question. You kept bees with treatments for 9 years. You stopped treating and lost most of your hives. 
it was almost certainly mites.


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## tbishop (Feb 28, 2012)

mattpiper5876 said:


> I have been beekeeping for about 9 years. Around 3 years ago, i decided to use some of Michael Bush techniques and converted to all mediums and natural comb for the most part. I also quit treating my bees for mites. My hives (14) have been in the full Alabama sun for the past 4 years. And to my surprise had done quite well during this 3 year time span, until Fall/Winter of this past year 2020. My last "official" check on my bees was around Thanksgiving and all seem relatively healthy and ready for the winter with plenty of pollen and honey on the hives. My check up inspection in mid-January 2021 revealed a very alarming and disheartening realization. 10 of my 14 hives were dead... gone... with only a handful of dead bees on the bottom boards. Earlier ride byes in December on warm days it seemed my hives were doing good. The presence of bees flying in and out made me think things were ok... not sure now if in December the bees flying might have been robber bees since i do not know when the "absconding" or die out occurred. I have always had a few hives not make it thru the winter (2 or 3 at the most) over the last 3 years. Never anything to this amount!
> 
> Just curious of any others experiencing this "AMOUNT" of loss (71%) and any thoughts on what has happened to my bees?? I did plant a garden this year on my property and just wander if it or other "new" gardens in the area (ALL DUE TO COVID influence) could have played a roll with pesticides and such?? we used BT dipel on my corn because it is supposed to be "Bee" " Friendly.
> 
> Thoughts??? ALso, should i burn my frames and bee equipment because of this???


Sorry for your loss!! I have been keeping bees for 58+years. You must learn to work with your bees in your locale.!!
My take on TF beekeeping is it seems to work only with some beekeepers in certain locations. In the 21st century the fact is that the majority of bees are being moved. If you are in a location where the commercial guys don't visit, you have isolation. I was in your shoes for several years(20+) till I came to the conclusion that TF was a dead end for me.
I have been using OA and Apivar in August for the last 4 years. My winter hive losses have been declining at a steady rate. My over wintering hives are very robust each spring. I turned the corner when I started to watch Ian Steppler and Mike Palmer on youtube. Both of these guys understand their bees. I have been using tidbits from each man's bee operation and I'm seeing Improvement in my bees. Each man knows his bees in HIS locale and works with the bees to help them to excell.


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## cdevier (Jul 17, 2010)

I switched to Michael Bush's method about 10 years ago. It did not work for me. I treat with MAQS and OAV with moderate success.


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## Jim Braun (Nov 8, 2019)

I just finished watching 'Vanishing of the Bees'. It came out in 2011. The main thrust of this video is CCD. They point the finger at neonic pesticides. They suggested that the pesticides may not kill the adult bees when they bring the it back into the hive. In the fall and early winter when stored pollen is fed to young bees, these immature bees may be weakened. It wasn't clear exactly who or when the secondary exposure killed the bees or if it simply interfered with the bees ability to navigate and return home. The first thing I thought of is varroa as your problem but after seeing this info I wonder if this may be CCD and delayed killing by pesticides. I think the only way you could find out for sure would be to have the honey and pollen tested. I'm not sure who you would get to do that testing for you. After you buy a red car you see lots of red cars.

I googled your location and went on to Beescape.org and they showed field crops near your town. 

Just another idea to throw into the mix.


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

If the mites got bad, “naturally resistant“ bees will wisely leave. If you only found a few dead bees, not piles of them, this is possible. But sick bees often fly off to die, another indication of mites and virus.

OAV treatments are cheap, quick and effective, if you don’t want your bees to do what they naturally do when a hive gets too infested, which is leave or die. Either way, you are out of bees. 

Speaking of natural, have you seen powdered sugar as treatment for mites? Some say it works well. 

I don't personally believe in evolution. Living things are way too complicated to have just suddenly appeared on the scene, fully formed. Takes a lot of faith to imagine these creatures just thought up such amazing behaviors, chemistry and structures and then decided to write it in their own genetic code for their kids to benefit from. The eco system way too intricate to just be an accident. 

Either way, good job trying to do your part to support these amazing creatures and the environment in general!


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

thill said:


> If the mites got bad, “naturally resistant“ bees will wisely leave.


No, they will not.



thill said:


> Speaking of natural, have you seen powdered sugar as treatment for mites? Some say it works well.


Only those that lose their bees. And exactly what is "natural" about bathing bees in confectioners sugar?



thill said:


> I don't personally believe in evolution.


The Earth is round. Man landed on the moon in 1969. But you are certainly free to disbelieve these facts too.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Jim Braun said:


> I just finished watching 'Vanishing of the Bees'. It came out in 2011. The main thrust of this video is CCD. They point the finger at neonic pesticides. They suggested that the pesticides may not kill the adult bees when they bring the it back into the hive. In the fall and early winter when stored pollen is fed to young bees, these immature bees may be weakened. It wasn't clear exactly who or when the secondary exposure killed the bees or if it simply interfered with the bees ability to navigate and return home. The first thing I thought of is varroa as your problem but after seeing this info I wonder if this may be CCD and delayed killing by pesticides. I think the only way you could find out for sure would be to have the honey and pollen tested. I'm not sure who you would get to do that testing for you. After you buy a red car you see lots of red cars.
> 
> I googled your location and went on to Beescape.org and they showed field crops near your town.
> 
> Just another idea to throw into the mix.


I think the neonics boogeyman is finally starting to lose a little steam, though there are still many proponents. The EU banned neonics on bee-attracting crops in 2013 and then outright banned all outdoor neonics in 2018. We now have possibly the greatest 8 year field study that encompassed an entire continent. We should be reading case study after case study about the vastly improved survival rates of European honey bees. Haven't you been reading them? Yeah . . . me neither.


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## FL Bee Works (Jan 16, 2021)

Vance G said:


> Mites are not controlled by small or natural comb. Some strains of bees manage to survive them by swarming constantly and abscounding every time mite levels build up. But mostly bees just die. Not treating bees seems like cruelty to me. But that is just me.


It is not cruel to let a species develop their OWE biological mechanisms to handling disease. Sorry, but bees are not human. To humanize them does more harm than good to their long-term survival. There is a Finnish study, if I remember correctly, that the hives in the study have never been treated for mites, and the bee girls solved the issue by dropping 2 specific protiens from their hemolymph that the mites feed on. Wow, it took 10 years, but the girls came up with a way to prevent themselves from being a mite turkey dinner. 

When we treat for mites, we are interfering with a whole species being able to develop biological mechanisms. It actually seems cruel to me that humans think so highly of themselves as to think the bees need our help...😂😂😂


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Mites are a problem humans created for honey bees. I think it arrogant of humans to think we can move bees to whatever continent we want and introduce any invasive predator of them from another continent and expect them to survive without our help.

It is like throwing a pit bull and a rooster in a pin together and somehow thinking they will work it out.


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## dleemc1 (Dec 31, 2012)

Gray Goose said:


> another point to keep in mind is the Queen lifespan.
> If you do not re queen each year the queens at some point are replaced via supercedure.
> the offspring would be a output of the drones in your area crossed with your queen. The original bees could have been better at resistance but as the daughters and granddaughters came the mite susceptibility may have increased. as well could be some new hives in the area that were not there 3 years ago.
> 
> ...


for me if i dont treat they die, most of the time the bigest strongest first.


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## jimpart (Jan 26, 2021)

mattpiper5876 said:


> I have been beekeeping for about 9 years. Around 3 years ago, i decided to use some of Michael Bush techniques and converted to all mediums and natural comb for the most part. I also quit treating my bees for mites. My hives (14) have been in the full Alabama sun for the past 4 years. And to my surprise had done quite well during this 3 year time span, until Fall/Winter of this past year 2020. My last "official" check on my bees was around Thanksgiving and all seem relatively healthy and ready for the winter with plenty of pollen and honey on the hives. My check up inspection in mid-January 2021 revealed a very alarming and disheartening realization. 10 of my 14 hives were dead... gone... with only a handful of dead bees on the bottom boards. Earlier ride byes in December on warm days it seemed my hives were doing good. The presence of bees flying in and out made me think things were ok... not sure now if in December the bees flying might have been robber bees since i do not know when the "absconding" or die out occurred. I have always had a few hives not make it thru the winter (2 or 3 at the most) over the last 3 years. Never anything to this amount!
> 
> Just curious of any others experiencing this "AMOUNT" of loss (71%) and any thoughts on what has happened to my bees?? I did plant a garden this year on my property and just wander if it or other "new" gardens in the area (ALL DUE TO COVID influence) could have played a roll with pesticides and such?? we used BT dipel on my corn because it is supposed to be "Bee" " Friendly.
> 
> Thoughts??? ALso, should i burn my frames and bee equipment because of this???


I had 3 hives and all were taken out by small hive beetles....


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Jim, in my area colonies do not die because of beetles. Beetles come in when the hive is already weak from something else. I suggest you look further so as not to have the same problem in the future. Your mileage in your locale may vary but I think it likely that beetles were opportunists and not grim reapers....


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jimpart said:


> I had 3 hives and all were taken out by small hive beetles....





Amibusiness said:


> Jim, in my area colonies do not die because of beetles. Beetles come in when the hive is already weak from something else. I suggest you look further so as not to have the same problem in the future. Your mileage in your locale may vary but I think it likely that beetles were opportunists and not grim reapers....


Yep, wax moths and hive beetles are commonly considered "Undertakers". Health colonies in appropriate sized conditions usually take care of them by themselves.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Jim Braun said:


> I just finished watching 'Vanishing of the Bees'. It came out in 2011. The main thrust of this video is CCD. They point the finger at neonic pesticides. They suggested that the pesticides may not kill the adult bees when they bring the it back into the hive. In the fall and early winter when stored pollen is fed to young bees, these immature bees may be weakened. It wasn't clear exactly who or when the secondary exposure killed the bees or if it simply interfered with the bees ability to navigate and return home. The first thing I thought of is varroa as your problem but after seeing this info I wonder if this may be CCD and delayed killing by pesticides. I think the only way you could find out for sure would be to have the honey and pollen tested. I'm not sure who you would get to do that testing for you. After you buy a red car you see lots of red cars.
> 
> I googled your location and went on to Beescape.org and they showed field crops near your town.
> 
> Just another idea to throw into the mix.


You can have Dave Wick sample your bees for pesticides; see a webinar put out by New York Bee Wellness with Dick Wick:



Deb


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Cloverdale said:


> You can have Dave Wick sample your bees for pesticides; see a webinar put out by New York Bee Wellness with Dick Wick:
> 
> 
> 
> Deb


good post Deb,

this falls into the "location, location, location" the 3 main points to consider for your Apiary site.

even close to me I see big differences in site locations, testing would be nice if problems found try a new place.
We need to wrap our minds around not every place is a good keeping place.

GG


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Gray Goose said:


> good post Deb,
> 
> this falls into the "location, location, location" the 3 main points to consider for your Apiary site.
> 
> ...


He has tested my bees over the years; I wanted to post a PDF of a report but cant figure out how to do it, any suggestions?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Cloverdale said:


> He has tested my bees over the years; I wanted to post a PDF of a report but cant figure out how to do it, any suggestions?


click the paper clip at the bottom, like you would a picture, browse to the pdf file open it 
worked for me.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

A report by Dave Wick thanks GG 🙂🐝


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## Baddest Bees (Dec 18, 2020)

ifixoldhouses said:


> maybe built up pesticides in the comb or mites.


Definitely mites


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Cloverdale said:


> A report by Dave Wick thanks GG 🙂🐝


Nice report Deb,
I can see the benefits here.

Can you offer what the cost was, A PM will suffice if you prefer to not publish it.

thanks
GG


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Gray Goose said:


> Nice report Deb,
> I can see the benefits here.
> 
> Can you offer what the cost was, A PM will suffice if you prefer to not publish it.
> ...


At that time the program was offered free through Pat Bono’s NY Bee Wellness; I participated for a few years. You collected about 100 bees from the inner cover 3 or 4 x a year and mailed them to Dick Wick, which he tested, and you received a report. One hive had an abundance of n.cerana spores and eventually died. I believe Dick is independent and charges a nominal fee for his services, it was not exspensive. I would emsil Pat through the Bee Wellness site to ask, I forget. Deb


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## blain1976 (Jun 8, 2019)

In my opinion, if you're going to go treatment free, then you should still be testing for mites to make sure that the bees don't need your help/make sure that they're handling it on their own.

If you don't like the idea of an alcohol wash, then the powdered sugar method is probably the next best thing. Not quite as accurate, but it would give you a general idea and is definitely better than nothing. If you have no or very low mite counts, you should be ok, but probably need to assume that it's actually more (since it's not as accurate as the alcohol wash). 
If you have moderate to high mite counts...again, you should probably assume it's more and you should probably consider treating your treatment free bees at that point.

I would definitely take the advice of others that have recommended testing the other hives and I would continue to test regardless of whether you plan to be treatment free or not.

Good luck!


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