# frame spacing within hive bodies



## LaLaLaura (Mar 11, 2016)

Hello All! 

I’m a new beekeeper and have a concern about the hive bodies my dad made for me. The height and width seem perfect, but the length is so that all of the frames will be pressed up against each other. I feel awful because my dad put all the time into making them, but I’m worried the bees are going to glue all my frames together with propolis. I was wondering if some more experienced beekeepers could offer any advice here… will the frames be maneuverable at all? Am I doomed? 

I really appreciate any input!

Thanks,
-L


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Not sure what you mean by frames being pushed up against each other due to problem with length.

I would presume your Dad looked at some plans.

Frames are typically self spacing from side to side so that you will see spaces - as you look down upon the box between the top bars. You will also see that the the end bars are wider than the top bars so they will touch and this is what provides the spacing between hives and allows for bee space. 

In terms of length there should be a little bit of space between the end of the top bars and the box ( this is what I think about in terms of length), as well as between the end bars and the side of the box. The frames need to have some room to move a little bit for bee space as well as to allow for some expansion of the wood due to moisture as well as ease of removing the hive for inspection, etc.

As for propolis, the bees will glue everything together that they possibly can - no big deal, it just comes with the territory.


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## Serendipidity (Feb 3, 2013)

There should be no space between the frames as I understand until it is drawn out. I think you meant to say width instead of length!!


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## LKBruns (Jul 12, 2014)

Can you post a picture?


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Welcome to BeeSource! Like orthoman said, frames are self spacing side to side. I push them together in the brood nest then center the mass of them in the box from side to side. In the supers, you can space them farther apart (use a finger between them) after the comb is initially drawn. The farther spacing (even putting 8 or 9 drawn frames in a 10 fr super) will let the bees draw the comb out more so you can cut cappings without having to use a scraper to get low spots.


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

In a brand new box with all ten frames shoved tight to one side you should have exactly one inch of empty space left.
If you are having to force or wiggle the last frame in because of lack of space then you have problems worse than propolis. Not only will they glue it up but bumpy comb will make it impossible to remove without comb on comb contact and rolling the bees.

You need the extra space to slide frames over to make room for removal.

If your box is that tight then leave a frame out. An inch and three eighths is more than you need but it's better than the alternative. You could use a dummy board or follower to close up some of that space.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

warrior said:


> *In a brand new box with all ten frames shoved tight to one side you should have exactly one inch of empty space left.*
> If you are having to force or wiggle the last frame in because of lack of space then you have problems worse than propolis. Not only will they glue it up but bumpy comb will make it impossible to remove without comb on comb contact and rolling the bees.
> 
> You need the extra space to slide frames over to make room for removal.
> ...


Huh. Never seen that in any of my boxes, nor in the boxes of the commercial guy I learned from. Never more than about 1/4" left over when new, and all fit tightly after a season or two. Gotta take one side frame out to be able to separate the others, and the only issue is that, occasionally, one might have comb attached to the box. After inspection, last frame has to be *pushed* back in firmly. Never had a problem 'rolling' bees.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Hi Lala, welcome to beesource!
Most 10 frame boxes are a standard size with maybe an eighth of an inch clearance with 10 ( each) 1&3/8 inch wide frames.
the "standard" 1 & 3/8" frame. is a compromise, I am told, brood nest frames are actually 1 & 1/4 inch, while honey storage frames are 1 & 1/2.
Some folks make their own "thinner" end bars, & put 11 frames in the bottom or brood nest (10 fr. box), thinking it makes a better environment for raising brood. The advise is " always" keep the frames tight together until they are drawn out, then space them out some to make fatter combs for honey storage.
I used plans from i don't know where for my 8-frame boxes, my 8 fr. boxes will hold 9 frames tight together. 
I bought some 8 frame boxes from Dadant ( the manufacturers plan on extra space, I guess) that are a little narrower, too tight for 9 frames, but dont observe bee space for 8 frames.
Each manufacturer of 8 frame equipment appears to be a little different 
You did not mention 8 frame or 10 frame, try to keep them tight until the frames are drawn, then if you are in honey super mode, you can remove one for the fatter combs. ( or remove your filler board)
I add a filler board in the side to make better brood frames.
( straighter combs)
bottom line, its all fine, one question , at least three different, correct, answers depending on circumstance 
Good Luck with your bees ... CE


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## LKBruns (Jul 12, 2014)

I use the plans found on this website under the "Build It" tab. 

I build all 8 frame equipment. Assuming 3/4" board width. My outside dimensions are length 19"7/8 and width 13"3/4. It leaves almost enough space for a 9th frame. 

I have found they build some burr comb between the outside frame and hive body. These dimensions match the 8 frame garden hive from Brushy Mountain.


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## LaLaLaura (Mar 11, 2016)

Thank you all so much for the wisdom and advice, especially after a potentially confusing post. Based upon multiple responses, I think I'm good. There is some extra space in the body; not enough for a 9th frame (I'm using 8-frame) but enough that I could expand them a little bit if needed.

I feel like a new mom or something with this beekeeping; so excited but also terrified something will go wrong! 

Thanks again,
-L


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

You don't really want to "expand them." Push all eight frames as closely together as you can get them right from the start and leave half of the remaining space on either side of this cluster of frames. Eight-frame equipment usually has a bit more "extra space" than ten-frame equipment, so that's good for beginners.

But it's really important to start with your brood frames as closely pushed together as possible - the little ears on the frames should touch each other. And after every inspection make sure you return them to that close-fitting state, leaving the extra space only on the outer edges. 

That extra space at the edge is what allows you to pull out the first frame (choose either side to start). You pull the first frame a little bit into that empty space and then you can pull it straight up and out without rubbing it against the next frame. Leave it out of the box while you move the next frame in towards you enough to be able to pull it straight up and out to have a look at at it. After you've looked at both sides, slide it back into the box close to the inside wall. Do the next frame, etc. until you've looked at the them all, or as many as you want to see.

Then, keeping the frames in the same order (and same orientation relative to entrance wall), begin to rebuild the box by carefully moving the frames back into position. When in each frame is back in place, use your hive tool to push it close against its neighbor. When all the frames are back in the box, use your hive tool against the inside edges of the box to do a final snug-up to maintain that critical empty space, divided evenly between the two sides. This final step is actually the first step that enables you to start your next inspection.

If you left all the extra space divided between the individual frames, you won't be able to start another inspection safely. Give the bees what they need, and no more, in the brood area. What they need is exactly the space defined by the little "ears" on the sides of the frames. So get those ears to touch. Occasionally you have to scrape off a bit of wax or propolis to keep the ears clean so the frames don't start to spread apart. 

There are more advanced techniques in honey supers where the combs (but fewer of them) are spaced farther apart to enhance honey storage. But you don't have to worry about that this year. 

The crucial task this year is for your bees to draw straight, even, narrow combs for their brood area. Yes, they will also be drawing honey storage frames, but still keep the frames closely packed together.

Good luck and have fun with your bees!

Enj.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource, _LaLaLaura_!

Standard frames (measuring the 'end bars') are 1 3/8" wide. 10 of those in a 10 frame box would be 1.375" x 10 frames = 13.75" total. This compares to a standard inside width for a 10 frame box of 14.75", so there would be 1" left over. The frames should be pushed together so the end bars touch and the group centered, so there would be 1/2" space at each of the walls of the box.

Eight frame boxes are not as standardized in width. Different manufacturers can't seem to agree. From another thread ...


Michael Bush said:


> There are two "standard" widths of eight frame hives. One would be 12 1/4" inside. The other would be 12 1/2" inside.


Eight standard frames would be 1.375" x 8 = 11", so there would be either 1.25" or 1.5" to split between each side of the box when the frames are centered. New frames without drawn comb should always be pushed together to get comb drawn, but there will still be space between individual top bars as they are narrower than the end bars.

A typical 8 frame box photo ...








photo credit

Note that the end bars of each frame touch (or _should_) and there is a little extra space at the box walls.


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## LittleTreeGuy (Aug 8, 2016)

Just found this thread... I have been considering making my own frames, and have a really quick method of making them so that they would be 1 1/2" wide at the top. I'm using 8 frame equipment, going on Mann Lake's dimensions, therefore having 12 1/2" width inside my boxes. At 1.5" each, 8 frames, I should have about 0.33" left over. 

I still plan on trimming down the lower half-2/3'rds of the frame sides to minimize propalizing, but after reading some of the comments above, I'm thinking that little bit of extra width may actually help by allowing slightly deeper comb.

Anyone else ever see or use 1 1/2" wide side bars on their frames?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Little tree
When you say 1 and 1/2 inch at the top, are you meaning the top bar or the side bar? If the top bar, I would think in a lang that you would have one heck of a time seperating the bars to pull them out and inspect. Mine are 1 and 1/16 and I can get my putty knife down and pry and also see between the frames before prying anything. Also if foundationless, I find even having the frames touching that every time you inspect, the frames seem to sit further apart for verious reasons even when trying to keep them tight. .33 inch is not much manuver space. Some even want their frames at 1.25 inch. Also some let them draw out narrow and then remove a frame after all the frames are built to allow the bees to build wider. I am on my first hives so take with a grain of salt.
gww


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## LittleTreeGuy (Aug 8, 2016)

Not the top bar... the top of the frame sides would be 1.5" total. The top bar would only be about 7/8" wide. So the "fingers" that the top bar sit in would be 1.5" from outside edge to outside edge.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

LittleTreeGuy said:


> Not the top bar... the top of the frame sides would be 1.5" total. The top bar would only be about 7/8" wide. So the "fingers" that the top bar sit in would be 1.5" from outside edge to outside edge.


I would do some more research into the possible negative effects of what you are thinking of doing. Wider is tolerable for dedicated honey supers but not in the brood box. Not the best thing for rapid spring build up as more bees are required to cover a given amount of brood when the gaps between comb faces are wider. You get more wild comb in wider spaces than you do at the lower limits. It may seem convenient for the construction methods you are thinking of but others have gone there before.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

As others are saying, consider the spacing between foundations, or combs. Commercial frames are a compromise between "brood" spacing & "honey storage" spacing. As to the "extra space in the box", 1/3 of an inch may be enough, or not. I made some tight nucs boxes that worked fine dry, but finally had to remove a frame in order to work them, after the bees moved in. Good luck! CE


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## LittleTreeGuy (Aug 8, 2016)

Thanks for the replies guys. I wasn't thinking that extra 1/8" would make a difference, but I guess between two frames, it would add up to 1/4". I have an easy solution, and have found a way to shave off the extra to make them the standard size. Just one step I thought maybe I could omit, but it sounds like I better stick with it.


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## emrude (Mar 23, 2015)

You have a wonderful father. My dad couldn't nail a nail straight. Do you have bees now or are you starting next year?
This is a great site to get information and opinions. It also helps to join a local bee club and/or finding a mentor to help you through all the little things that a beekeeper has to know.

Good luck

Mary


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