# They killed the new queen... now what?



## murphys110 (Jun 10, 2015)

Ok... so this past Sunday morning we attempted our first split. Was a two-deep hive full of bees and I had a new marked queen ready to go. Got into the hive and realized I was probably a couple of weeks late as the top deep was full of queen cups and they'd run out of room. Still we went through each frame to make sure there was no queen, moving each to a different deep box ready for moving. We did find a queen and left that frame with the bottom deep of the original hive. 

Secured the split hive, and took it to our home to help avoid drift (many, many miles away). Late Sunday afternoon about 6p, we setup the split in our backyard on the bottom board, and put the queen cage between two frames of brood, after removing the cork to expose the candy. Side note... we picked up the queen on Saturday and gave water and a bit of honey on Sunday since Kelley bees had fed her Saturday... but to my untrained eye it looked like quite a bit of candy had already been eaten away from inside by the bees... not sure if that was a factor later...?

So... this morning my wife and I walk outside to look at the hive, and notice a small cluster of bees on the porch. Looking more closely, we see the white dot marking the new (now dead) queen, and we continued to watch as they slowly moved her to the edge of the porch and then over.... poor girl.

After reading this very good post, I'm guessing that maybe the split wasn't queenless and we'd missed her? Or maybe were unsuccessful removing all the queen cups?

Regardless, I'm unsure how to proceed. Should we inspect the hive for a queen and if found, leave them alone?

My wife names the queens, so it was quite sad for her to witness the untimely demise of Lady Jane Grey.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

First I think you should just leave the queenless hive alone for a couple days. After two or three days check to see if they started queen cells. They can make their own queen and most likely will do just that. Give them about a month then look for eggs and larva. 

Another thing. You did your split backwards. My first couple splits were done backwards too. It will work both ways but taking the queen from it's hive to a nuc is sort of a "false swarm", is more natural, and was how I got taught by the beekeeper from the university.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

I like Michael Bush's advice. Since you have the other colony as a resource, give the one you're unsure of a frame of eggs and young brood once a week for three weeks. If you already have a queen in the hive, they'll just raise workers. If they need a queen they'll make one. If you have a virgin queen, remember it will take some time for her to grow big enough for a mating flight and then a bit more time for her to start laying after mating.

I'm a newb, so consider your source, but it's how I plan to solve problems like this when they arise.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Whenever I buy a queen for a split I make up the nuc a week in advance the day before the queens arrive I destroy all queen cells so they are hopelessly queenless.


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## murphys110 (Jun 10, 2015)

aunt betty said:


> First I think you should just leave the queenless hive alone for a couple days. After two or three days check to see if they started queen cells. They can make their own queen and most likely will do just that. Give them about a month then look for eggs and larva.
> 
> Another thing. You did your split backwards. My first couple splits were done backwards too. It will work both ways but taking the queen from it's hive to a nuc is sort of a "false swarm", is more natural, and was how I got taught by the beekeeper from the university.


Just clarifying, you think they'd kill the queen even if they were already queenless? And yeah... backwards is a good descriptor... and after talking to a more seasoned beek, realized I could have put a couple frames with queen cups in a separate deep and tried to start more...


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## murphys110 (Jun 10, 2015)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> I like Michael Bush's advice. Since you have the other colony as a resource, give the one you're unsure of a frame of eggs and young brood once a week for three weeks. If you already have a queen in the hive, they'll just raise workers. If they need a queen they'll make one. If you have a virgin queen, remember it will take some time for her to grow big enough for a mating flight and then a bit more time for her to start laying after mating.
> 
> I'm a newb, so consider your source, but it's how I plan to solve problems like this when they arise.


Would be a great idea, but i'm about an hour away from the other colony... not too convenient... i'm hoping there's enough eggs and brood currently for them to "do their thing".... and I've only been doing this three years, and in some ways I feel more newbish then at the beginning...


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## murphys110 (Jun 10, 2015)

Dan the bee guy said:


> Whenever I buy a queen for a split I make up the nuc a week in advance the day before the queens arrive I destroy all queen cells so they are hopelessly queenless.


So a week isn't long enough for any to emerge?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I dunno, I always have luck making up the nucs and letting them sit queenless for 15 minutes or maybe an hour if I have to drive them, then introducing a queen w/o any issues. As long as they know they're queenless they typically accept her. Some lines of bees don't like foreign queens though, it's very tough to requeen them unless they make their own.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

This might be helpful. Some elementary knowledge on queen rearing.
Day zero is when the egg is laid. (anything after the egg is laid is called day one for 24 hours)
Day three the egg hatches into a larva.
Day 8 the queen cell is capped.
Day 16 is when the new queen emerges.
By day 28 you should see some eggs from the new queen.

It's a long month but you're most likely on day 6 ...maybe further along but you have to look into an angry bee hive to find out where you are at on the queen calendar. Try not to mess with it too much but at the same time you have to see where you're at from time to time. The process will for sure test your self-control and give you some anxiety. 

I'd be willing to bet that if you looked into the queenless split you'd find them busy making queen cells.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

murphys110 said:


> So a week isn't long enough for any to emerge?


You can put a queen in there right away but for new beeks they seem to miss seeing a cup with eggs waiting a week makes it pretty obvious that you have a queen cell started. If a cell is started they are more likely to kill your new queen. Use aunt Betty's guide it will help a lot.


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## murphys110 (Jun 10, 2015)

OK, so if it's 28 days before seeing new eggs from the queen, and the workers live about 3 weeks (?)... will the hive be empty...? There is brood and so guessing those new bees will help...


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## RBRamsey (Mar 1, 2015)

Workers live about 40-45 days during a flow.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

RBRamsey said:


> Workers live about 40-45 days during a flow.


Do they live longer in winter, then? They don't raise brood in winter is my understanding.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> Do they live longer in winter, then? They don't raise brood in winter is my understanding.


They live longer in winter because they are not working themselves to death bringing in pollen/nectar, & making honey, also not as much brood to care for ( more work).
At least that is my understanding, plus the term "fat bees for winter". But the details are still a little foggy to me. CE


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

28 days since it was queenright is perhaps too late as all the bees are too old to raise brood.

For future reference, don't use a queen cage with a candy plug release. Use a Laidlaw push-in cage to introduce a queen. 

The Laidlaw cage is made of 7/8 inch square wood fashioned into a rectangle 5 inches by 7 inches. It has #8 hardware cloth over the top, and a 1 inch sheet metal rim stapled to the inside of the rectangle protruding 3/8 inch below the bottom surface of the wood. It has no candy release hole - the beekeeper does the releasing after the bees have accepted her - no sooner.

You'll probably have to remove one frame of comb to make it fit into the hive and leave a beespace above the hardware cloth.

Brush the bees off of a nice flat frame of emerging brood with a corner of honey and pollen included. Place the new queen on the area where some honey and pollen can be included under the Laidlaw cage, along with mostly emerging brood. Cover the new MATED queen (it does not work for virgin queens) with the cage, being careful to NOT crush her, pushing the sheet metal down into the comb until the wood bottoms out. Return her to the hive.

The young bees under the cage emerge and accept the new queen as "mama", leaving cells open for the mated queen to lay eggs. As she lays eggs, her pheromone production level rises, bringing about acceptance.

If the bees form an "attack ball" over the Laidlaw cage, do not release her. If they instead appear to be feeding the young bees or the queen herself, they have accepted the new queen and the beekeeper may now release her. It may take up to 3 weeks for acceptance. 

More than 3 weeks is trouble - it could mean that there is a laying queen in the hive. If so, you'll find eggs or open brood outside the Laidlaw cage. If not, It's close to too late to introduce another queen, so go ahead and combine the bees to another colony. A week or 2 later,you can divide the combined hive and try to re-queen again.

Using healthy, well-mated queens, this method is nearly 100% effective.


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

The split aunt Betty describes is a reverse split to confuse matters more. So what you did isn't backwards. There are some dozen ways to split bees. A traditional split is what you did. 

I'm with Dan. Hopelessly queenless is that way to go, but you lose bees with the way he describes. 

Like all lessons in beekeeping the bees taught me a lesson recently and I lost two queens, so I changed my methods. 

Don't pull the cork for a few days. Tape over it even. Nurse bees will feed her even if other bees are trying to kill her. In 3-4 days check on queens. If you can't get bees to move off cage they are trying to kill her so keep it going. In your case had you done this a few days later you would notice QC and smash them. Rendering them "hopelessly queenless" as Dan says. After you smashed those cells give em a day or so and they will love her. If they are feeding her and not trying to chew through the mesh of a California Cage then you can pull candy cork. They will get her out fast. 

If a queen can be obtained that would be my recommendation. Queenright faster is always best.


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## murphys110 (Jun 10, 2015)

Update...
After a week we inspected and found no queen, very few remaining cap brood, and no queen cups. Ordered a new queen (mad props to Kelley Bees for giving us a 'one time' free replacement even though it was not their fault), got the queen Saturday and put her in yesterday. Per advice, we did not remove the cork yet, but plan to on Tuesday (after two days). Lots of honey and bees still active, so hopeful for their ultimate survival... 

Thanks!


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## murphys110 (Jun 10, 2015)

Update 2... 

Well.... The queen has been in the hive (in the cage) for three days, and my wife inspected to make sure it didn't appear that the bees were trying to kill her. We'd read (and heard) that if you're able to move them off the cage easily, they're not trying to kill her. She was able to move them with no apparent frenzy by the bees to get to her. So my wife decided to remove the cork and expose the candy... but pulled the wrong cork and queen came right out. My wife described that almost immediately the queen was covered by bees (in a ball)... and although she never saw a dead queen, we suspect that's what was happening...???

It's entirely possible that we missed a virgin queen, but we inspected closely multiple times... no brood, good harvesters, only a couple of leftover empty (and small) queen cups... It certainly seemed that they were "hopelessly queenless".....

So now wondering what to do next... leave the hive alone and just see what happens? Try a third time with a new queen...? I'm of the opinion that I should just wait and see........ 

Any advice is greatly appreciated!


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

Wait. If she is there she might not lay for a few days after release. Check the weekend. Center of nest is most likely place for eggs. Assuming she has room to lay and they are not back filling. Make sure center frames are open.

If she is dead you need to start over. Either donate a frame of eggs from another hive so they can make a queen or buy one and rinse and repeat. 

I doubt you have a virgin.


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## murphys110 (Jun 10, 2015)

nediver said:


> Wait. If she is there she might not lay for a few days after release. Check the weekend. Center of nest is most likely place for eggs. Assuming she has room to lay and they are not back filling. Make sure center frames are open.
> 
> If she is dead you need to start over. Either donate a frame of eggs from another hive so they can make a queen or buy one and rinse and repeat.
> 
> I doubt you have a virgin.


thanks nediver. so by the description of the queen's reception (balled up around her), you think there's a chance they weren't trying to kill her? Just curious...


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## birddog (May 10, 2016)

Yes there is a chance there is ok ,especially if you didnt miss anything,,, check for eggs in 3,4 days


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## murphys110 (Jun 10, 2015)

Well, I'll keep hope alive... and hope the bees kept the queen alive!


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Safest bet ... add frame w/ eggs, very young brood. If they make their own queen, they are more likely to accept her. I dunno how big the hive is, but if they make more than one, consider splitting the hive to increase your chances of success.


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## murphys110 (Jun 10, 2015)

tech.35058 said:


> Safest bet ... add frame w/ eggs, very young brood. If they make their own queen, they are more likely to accept her. I dunno how big the hive is, but if they make more than one, consider splitting the hive to increase your chances of success.


Thanks tech. Unfortunately, this deep is a split from a two-deep hive (split on 4/16)... and I brought it to my home whereas my other hives are on family property about an hour away, so no access to extra frames of brood...


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

tech.35058 said:


> Safest bet ... add frame w/ eggs, very young brood. If they make their own queen, they are more likely to accept her.


+1


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Dan the bee guy said:


> Whenever I buy a queen for a split I make up the nuc a week in advance the day before the queens arrive I destroy all queen cells so they are hopelessly queenless.


:thumbsup:
Whenever possible, this is the safest way I've found.

A split that has eggs or two day old or less larva will sometimes make a queen of their own instead of accepting an introduced queen.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

If they kill this latest queen, I see two reasons for it.
1 They have a queen already.
2 They've turned laying worker and don't want a queen.

Let it sit 3 days and check back in on it.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Read Dr. Harry H. Laidlaw's book, Contemporary Queen Rearing, especially the chapter about queen introduction.

You won't make mistakes like that again. Moving the resident bees off the cage is not an indication of acceptance. Feeding her is, and lack of an attack ball is. 

Again the Laidlaw cage soes not use a candy release. It gives her every chance to lay eggs and bring up her pheromone level, forcing acceptance (if the colony is indeed queenless).


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## murphys110 (Jun 10, 2015)

UPDATE:
Happy day! It's now apparent that we missed her on previous inspections, but we have a queen! She's a laying beast and they made her all on their own. Those bees must have thought us crazy to keep trying to force new queens on them... silly humans... 
As always, thanks all for your input and advice. I'm going to start a binder with all the tricks we're learning... I'm attaching a video taken during inspection showing the beautiful queen and her brood and larvae. and I'm seriously thinking that the next split I do, I'll just let them make their own queen, as they seem to do a pretty good job of it!


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

Glad to hear it! 



murphys110 said:


> the next split I do, I'll just let them make their own queen, as they seem to do a pretty good job of it!


Yeah, ain't that strange! They do so well without our "helping" them!


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

Excellent news


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Great news to hear, thanks for the update.


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